# Just found out...need advice :(



## TornNBroken

So here's my situation, 

My wife of nearly six years just told me that she has been cheating on my for the last two months, starting in late February. March 4th we found out she was 5 weeks pregnant (so definitely mine......I think???). She said its some guy I don't know and that they slept together twice, once before and once after we found out about the baby. I'm SO freaking upset, and hurt, and confused, and sick to my stomach. I've been doing nothing but reading about infidelity online since I found out. I had to leave the house, cause I just can't look at my wife. I've been staying at a hotel and don't know what to do from here.

I keep going back and forth between feelings of despair and thinking "How can I ever love her again?" to hopefulness because I read stories of people who's marriage is supposedly better after an affair.

Most of the time though I feel like I would leave her if not for the baby. I mean, that's MY KID (our first). I don't want that kid to grow up with split up parents. I don't want partial visitation rights, I want him/her to grow up in a solid household with two loving biological parents, like i did.

If I leave my wife, it will ruin her. She is so ashamed of what she's done and she is SOOOOO sorry. I can't imagine her having to face our families and friends and admit to her cheating on me as we were trying/were newly pregnant. She'd be humiliated and crushed....and she already has self image/self esteem issues.

When I think of the hurt it would cause if I left her, and the damage it would cause to my future kids life, I think there's no way I can leave her. I think that we can just keep this quiet from everyone, get counseling at a different church, and work through this...

BUT HOW THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO GET OVER THIS!?!

ALL i can think about is her F$*$ing another guy! WITH MY BABY GROWING INSIDE HER! AUGH!!!!!!

How can I ever get over that?

I don't want to live a miserable life with a sham marriage just cause I think it would be "good" for my kid. I know raising kids in a broken marriage can be just as bad, or worse than raising them in two different households.

I DO love her, I always have. We were high school sweethearts and have been together for over 12 years now. If I knew that we could get back to a loving marriage and I could forgive her, then I should try for that in order to provide the right life for my kid....but I'm so torn, because if there were no kid, I think I'd be gone, so then I feel like I'm justifying doing the "wrong" thing just because of a child.

I don't know what to do, I'm sorry this is so long. Where do I go from here?

I had to miss the first ultrasound cause of work, but I was so excited for the next one in a few weeks....

NOW.....

This was supposed to be the start of something so special (becoming a FAMILY!) and I feel like she's stolen that from me. I also feel so pressured, because if this IS going to get reconciled, I feel like I have 7 months to do it, and from everything I read, its a MUCH LONGER process.


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## SomedayDig

Well, man...sorry you're here. It really sucks to add another to the rank and file of TAM.

Anyway, you're going to hear a lot of advice and it's gonna come at you really rapid fire. Take a breath. Read. Absorb. This is going to be the most difficult thing you have ever been through.

Before anything else, I need you to hear something: Your wife may have admitted to sleeping with the guy twice. But...how did it get to that point? You are going to learn a term called trickle truth. Every cheater does it. It's part self-preservation and part marriage-preservation.

Sorry, man.


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## walkonmars

Did you have suspicions or did she just confess on her own?

Did she say why she cheated? Why she confessed? Why they broke up?

Who was he? Is he still around her?


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## PBear

Have you been reading up in the infidelity forum? There HAS to be consequences to her actions. If there's not, she's not going to fully understand the impact of what she's done. That means confessing what she's done to her parents and yours. It means transparency in communications. It means counselling/therapy to understand WHY she chose to do this, with your baby inside her. If it was me, it would also mean a polygraph to ascertain the possibility of the baby not being yours, as well as a DNA test and STD tests.

You can't trust her as to the how many times and when it started, BTW. Or even if this is her first time. Not on a first confession.

Btw, why did she confess? How did they meet? How did they communicate?

C


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## walkonmars

You can't forgive unless you know what, why, etc.

How are your finances? Do you have family and close friends nearby? Does she?

Did anyone else know what she was doing and supported her lies and betrayal?


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## Cabsy

That's terrible. I'm on a similar timeline, minus the baby, that's definitely a huge complication. I was trickle-truthed, for all I know it's still being done to me, and things only seem to get worse from the initial confession.

You'll hear harsh words and tough advice here. I think it's done from a place of love... empathy, but steel yourself and consider the wisdom of people who know this story well.


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## TornNBroken

Wow, thanks for all the replies. (that was fast)

I'll reply to you all in a bit, I just realized its 4:00 pm and I haven't eaten anything all day...probably not helping my sick feeling. 

Gonna go get something to eat so I can think and reply clearly.

Thanks again for the outpouring of quick replies.

TNB


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## walkonmars

You only have her (worthless for now) word that you got her pregnant. It could easily be him and the affair could be several months. You need the whole truth.


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## SomedayDig

I know it's tough, but make sure to try to eat something during the day and get plenty of water. In the first month or so I lost over 20 pounds. The Affair Diet isn't recommended by ANY f'ng health center.

When you come back, there are probably gonna be a lot more replies. As Mars up there asked, "Who is he?" Seriously. She's gonna tell you it's someone you don't know. So, ask who he is. You need his name. His marriage status and everything else. If she is unwilling to give that info, it will be time for you to really harden your heart cuz you'll be in for a long f'ng ride if you choose to stay.


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## tom67

walkonmars said:


> You only have her (worthless for now) word that you got her pregnant. It could easily be him and the affair could be several months. You need the whole truth.


Yes get details, why did she choose now to confess and find out who om is
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DaddyLongShanks

walkonmars said:


> You can't forgive unless you know what, why, etc.


Yes true forgiveness and truthfulness will com about through a release of all of the details.



walkonmars said:


> How are your finances? Do you have family and close friends nearby? Does she?





walkonmars said:


> Did anyone else know what she was doing and supported her lies and betrayal?


Someone always knows and maintains the lies and betrayal. It could be most of her circle and some of yours. These people will also turn on you if they support her and mess your life up really good.


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## verpin zal

It wasn't twice. The man dumped your wife and she decided that before you hear it from some third party, tell you herself.

[Edit: Oh forgot to add, the man was smart, I'll give him that. He didn't want to raise someone else's child if the woman got too infatuated and left you to be with him. And if you don't get the details quick and expose, he'll walk away with his score on the billboard.]

She slept with someone after finding out about the bun in the oven? And she says she is remorseful now? OOO-kay. Right.

"She'd be humiliated and crushed"

Oh I am so so sorry for her. In the meantime, how about focusing on how you feel about the whole mess?

Get tested for STDs.


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## Cabsy

SomedayDig said:


> I know it's tough, but make sure to try to eat something during the day and get plenty of water. In the first month or so I lost over 20 pounds. The Affair Diet isn't recommended by ANY f'ng health center.


Seconded. I went from 175 to 149 from late February to the end of March. It briefly got better through a few false reconciliations (trickle truth) and then got way worse each time I was knocked back down.

I wasn't eating (but I was puking, especially at first), nervous energy, little/no sleep, started drinking/smoking, etc. I just wanted time to go by and it seemed to slow to a crawl just to spite me. 5AM, smoking a cigarette to pass 10 minutes, taking a shot to blur time and maybe even pass out/sleep.

I've been eating better... or at least eating... for the past few weeks. I've been taking better care of myself all around. My stomach is still torn up, churning, especially in the morning.


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## MattMatt

Sorry you are here, but glad you found us.

Is the baby yours?

Your wife said you do not know who the other man is. Really? She might by lying about this. 

If there is any chance of reconciliation you need for her to be totally, 100% honest and open with you.

She has to name him to you and his wife or girl friend must be informed by the both of you.

You must also insist on STD and HIV tests and as some STDs can harm unborn babies the paediatricians and doctors must be told what your wife did.

Your wife might not like this. Well, that's too bad. She made this bed, now she gets to lie in it.


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## holycowe

He might as well dumped her because she told him (before she told you) she's pregnant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

holycowe said:


> He might as well dumped her because she told him (before she told you) she's pregnant.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dump? Might not be the answer...


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## azteca1986

I'm so so sorry for what you're about to go through Torn. 

You need to find out all the info you can about the affair. This may take time and will come out bit by bit (Trickle Truth). Without knowing what you're dealing with before you make a decision you'll have to live with.

Please tell your parents and close friends about the affair. You'll need all the support you can get.


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## northland

Don't sign the birth certificate until after the DNA tests results are in and you are proven to be the biological father.


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## MattMatt

northland said:


> Don't sign the birth certificate until after the DNA tests results are in and you are proven to be the biological father.


Pre-natal DNA testing is now available 

Non-Invasive Prenatal Paternity Test
Prenatal paternity testing | Order your free prenatal paternity testing kit today

The first company is USA-based the second UK-based.

I just Googled them.


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## tom67

Torn you have to first find out what you are potentially forgiving her for then you have to expose. Is the other guy married? gf? I would make her move out of the house for at least a few weeks tell her you need time to decide.


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## Shamwow

You go back to the house and tell her to leave until you decide differently. Yes she's your hs sweetheart...yes she's pregnant...yes you want to treat her like your lil princess as you always planned to...but that went out the window when she banged another guy and got pregnant. There's a chance the baby's yours, sure. Sadly for you, there's just as much of a chance that it's the doucherocket's baby.

And they had sex twice? Multiply that by your favorite number and you might be in the ballpark, you have absolutely ZERO reason to believe anything she tells you from this point on, unless she fixes your marriage. Not your job man. Not until she actually does things to make it right, like admitting what she did to friends and family, taking the shame, counseling for her, and kissing your a$$ Bigtime. As for twice, can't imagine a guy going in for a preggo repeat, unless he was with her a whole lot before. 

Good luck man. Hit the gym, don't let your W see you cry, take charge of everything and treat her like a betraying child...because that's what she's been...if you roll over and keep this a secret "for the family", she will lose all respect for you, period. She may act like she's grateful for a while, but she'll know deep down that you can't fight for what's yours. Do not give her that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DaddyLongShanks

tom67 said:


> Torn you have to first find out what you are potentially forgiving her for then you have to expose. Is the other guy married? gf? I would make her move out of the house for at least a few weeks tell her you need time to decide.


Very smart. There needs to be a repercussion which will allow her to feel some pain. Or else her comfort zone with cheating will expand, because it didn't hurt the last time.

I know you want to be responsible and you love your woman.

There needs to be a penalty, so perhaps it's have her move out and zero contact for a period of time, perhaps several months.

Also, like the others have said. It might be "mean" and painful, that you do owe it to yourself to have her verify the child is yours.


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## TornNBroken

Well, I was gonna reply individually, but since there's so many posts....

So, first off, she confessed outta the blue. I really had no concerns. We haven't had the perfect marriage, and we'd been working on things like being more affectionate to one another, but overall I thought things were probably a 7.5/10. She has said things for a long time about wanting to "feel the butterflies" again. And we've had long talks about how you go through stages of love and that butterfly/infatuation state usually isn't around >10 yrs into a relationship and how that's not a bad thing....but she's always wanted those feelings that I guess I wasn't creating.

As far as background with cheating, there was a time in high school when she kissed another guy (a long term friend who was also in a relationship) after we had been dating a year. We had a little hiccup, but moved on pretty quickly...Then, in college (year of dating #4) she ended up kissing a guy from work and we had a couple of rough months. Now this...

I feel like she likes attention from other guys (which I don't/didn't find all that alarming, cause hey, who doesn't like to be flattered by the opp sex), and I chalked up the two previous instances to curiosity. Since we each have only really had one serious relationship, we've had talks about "I wonder what its like to be with someone else" since we both really had no comparison. We've even said that we wished we met later on in life, cause we knew we belonged together, but just wish we had experienced a bit more before settling down. 

Anyways...the thing that makes this even more difficult is that both of our families live is the same city. We are all very close, our parents are good friends. We have mutual work/social friends, but we spend a lot of time with our siblings and their spouses and kids. I can't imagine telling people about this and then reconciling things. How could I take her to a family event without her thinking that everyone hates her and without me thinking that everyone must think I'm a doormat. Does a successful reconciliation ALWAYS involve telling everyone you know?

We had been trying to have a kid for a few months, and I was there for all the negative preg tests, and then the eventual positive one. 

Financially, I make about 5 times as much as her, and thats one of my concerns. I worked my but off to go through undergrad and grad school to get a great career in order to provide a certain life for my family. If I were to get a divorce, she would have custody I assume (she's not a deadbeat by any means) and I don't know what kind of life he would have.

I know a lot of you are like "F her, shes a liar and a cheat" but its hard for me to just feel that way. I love her and it would be incredibly difficult for me to add anymore pain to her. She truly is crushed already by what she did. 

She started going to counseling about 6 weeks ago, because she said she had some free sessions with her company's health plan, and she said she had just been feeling kinda depressed even though she "knew she had no reason to be sad." When she confessed she said to me that she doesn't know why she would do this, but knew the only way she could stop was if she came clean, and had been going to counseling to try and stop.


FYI, taco bell didn't help the sick stomach feeling


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## DaddyLongShanks

Shamwow said:


> Good luck man. Hit the gym, don't let your W see you cry, take charge of everything and treat her like a betraying child...because that's what she's been...of you roll over and keep this a secret "for the family", she will lose all respect for you, period. She may act like she's grateful for a while, but she'll know deep down that you can't fight for what's yours. Do not give her that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What he said. You CANNOT give her that. You cannot even know that you gave her that.


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## Shamwow

And absolutely find out who the OM is, stat. Peruse her cell records. Find his name, google him, find out his marital status, address, age, etc. Probably no need to ask your wife about him again before doing this. She'll lie...sorry but you have to realize the level of betrayal she's gone to, what's a little white lie at this point.

Certainly make sure she's cared for medically and the baby is supported in the womb for now, but don't for a second take the stress of her shame on you, just because of the pregnancy. She banged him AFTER she knew, so it's on her man. Ugh...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

holycowe said:


> He might as well dumped her because she told him (before she told you) she's pregnant.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless he likes having sex with married, pregnant women? He gets to Cuckold the husband, have hot sex with no fear of pregnancy...


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## Thoreau

Torn....LISTEN to these people....and DO what they are telling. Especially Shamwow and Mach. 

There are currently 4 or 5 threads going where the men are not listening, and things are going south fast. Please man....dont do this to yourself. Your best chance to SAVE your family is to take the advice here and ACT on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ironman

TornNBroken said:


> Most of the time though I feel like* I would leave her if not for the baby*. I mean, that's MY KID (our first). I don't want that kid to grow up with split up parents. I don't want partial visitation rights, I want him/her to grow up in a solid household with two loving biological parents, like i did.
> 
> * If I leave my wife, it will ruin her. * She is so ashamed of what she's done and she is SOOOOO sorry. I can't imagine her having to face our families and friends and admit to her cheating on me as we were trying/were newly pregnant. She'd be humiliated and crushed....and she already has self image/self esteem issues.
> 
> *When I think of the hurt it would cause if I left her, and the damage it would cause to my future kids life, I think there's no way I can leave her*. I think that we can just keep this quiet from everyone, get counseling at a different church, and work through this...
> (


Re-read the parts of your words that I bolded. Consider for one moment that it was not you that forced her to drop her panties for another guy. That kid may well not be yours ... be damm sure to get a dna test after the delivery. 

You need to stop feeling sorry for HER. You're the one who's getting screwed over here man. This is no way to start a family life together. She has disrespected and humiliated you and you're just getting started as a family!!! I mean, seriously? Does she seem like relationship material to you now?

I know I'm being harsh, but you seem to need a reality check. You say you want to stay for the kid (that you don't even know is yours) ... yet how is it going to be better for that kid growing up in a household of resentment, distrust, and disrespect .. because have no doubt, that is what is in store.

Be a man and leave her. If the kid is yours, then be a father to them ... but not with her. Start a stable, loving relationship with another decent woman and let your kid see how a healthy relationship looks like when they are around you. You'll be doing that kid a much bigger favor by NOT staying with her (if the kid is even yours, sheesh).

Forget about the consequences for her, she made her bed .. now she has to lie in it.


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## TornNBroken

I haven't asked for anymore details yet, cause I really don't want any more mental pictures than what I have already. And I've read varying opinions on whether details are helpful or not. I don't want to hear something that I can never forget and regret asking later. What if this guy is better looking than me? What if he's not? Either way, it sucks. What if he's in great shape, how could I ever feel comfortable around her if we reconciled and I'm constantly thinking that she doesn't like MY body. What if he's a fat, gross, ugly dude? That would almost make it worse cause she found our marriage so bad that she just needed any old pig to be with...

I dunno.

Do I want a name? Do I wanna see his face online? Right now in my head its all vague terrible thoughts. Do I really wanna put a face to the headless body that's screwing my wife in my mind?


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## rrrbbbttt

Be wary of Trickle Truth.

She is giving you limited info, you need to get information and not just rely on what she is wanted to confess.

Have her write out a time line, get phone records, computer records etc and start comparing. Do these match with her time line/

Get her to write a NC letter, you review it and send it certified.

How did she meet him? This you need to know.

Did she have any friends help with this matter? If she did they must now be history for her.

Just a start.

You have a long road.


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## TornNBroken

rrrbbbttt said:


> Get her to write a NC letter, you review it and send it certified.


What's an NC letter?

There are a lot of abbreviations on here....is there a list somewhere of what they all mean? I've figured out most by reading other threads, but some i don't know.


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## carmen ohio

Dear TornNBroken, the _first_ things you need to do is determine if he child is yours or not. Do not take your WW's word for it, have a qualified DNA test performed as soon as it is medically safe for the fetus. Do this before you make any decisions about your future relationship with your WW.


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## HarryDoyle

> This was supposed to be the start of something so special (becoming a FAMILY!) and I feel like she's stolen that from me. I also feel so pressured, because if this IS going to get reconciled, I feel like I have 7 months to do it, and from everything I read, its a MUCH LONGER process.


There is no set timetable. It depends on a lot of things. Some couples never "do it". There is no "end" to R. It's a gradual process, more gradual to some than others. In my case it's been almost 5 months since D day and while I'm no where near over it, I know we'll get through this. My WW has not only done everything I have asked but has gone way beyond what I've asked. Every situation is complicated, and so is mine, but R is possible, and in a lot of ways we are closer now than we ever have been and we've married almost 34 years.


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## verpin zal

NC = No contact letter. She writes it, you read it, and send it to OM.

And TnB, Shamwow has spoken. When he chooses to speak, you would be wise to choose to listen.

Might as well go to his thread and see what the man has endured.


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## MattMatt

TornNBroken said:


> I haven't asked for anymore details yet, cause I really don't want any more mental pictures than what I have already. And I've read varying opinions on whether details are helpful or not. I don't want to hear something that I can never forget and regret asking later. What if this guy is better looking than me? What if he's not? Either way, it sucks. What if he's in great shape, how could I ever feel comfortable around her if we reconciled and I'm constantly thinking that she doesn't like MY body. What if he's a fat, gross, ugly dude? That would almost make it worse cause she found our marriage so bad that she just needed any old pig to be with...
> 
> I dunno.
> 
> Do I want a name? Do I wanna see his face online? Right now in my head its all vague terrible thoughts. *Do I really wanna put a face to the headless body that's screwing my wife in my mind?*


Yes. and if it is someone you know, yes, you most certainly do!


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## walkonmars

It's a 99.99% certainty she is lying to you for whatever reason. "Two times only" is a big lie. But the # of times is not the real issue. As Shamwow said, find out everything you can about the OM.

He dropped her like a hot potato once he found out she was pg. Did you have a sperm count done while you were trying to start a family?

Have a little respect for yourself. Right now she isxin panic mode and unsure of paternity - but she'll never admit it to you. You are being gaslighted big time. Follow Shamwow's excellent advice.


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## aug

TornNBroken said:


> So, first off, *she confessed outta the blue*. I really had no concerns. We haven't had the perfect marriage, and we'd been working on things like being more affectionate to one another, but overall I thought things were probably a 7.5/10. She has said things for a long time about wanting to "feel the butterflies" again. And we've had long talks about how you go through stages of love and that butterfly/infatuation state usually isn't around >10 yrs into a relationship and how that's not a bad thing....but she's always wanted those feelings that I guess I wasn't creating.



She confessed because it'll be hard to hide the baby bump and when the child is born, he/she wont look like you.

There's no way for you to know the truth when she started having sex with the other man (OM).

You haven't had a perfect marriage, quite simply, because your wife has wandering eyes, lips, and obviously, vagina.

*You need to get very practical from here on.* The consequences for you not doing so is severe to you financially and emotionally.

You could be on the hook for serious child (and spousal) support if the baby turns out to fathered by another man. You're looking at 18-21+ years of support. A child born into a marriage (even if it is fathered by another man) is your legal responsibility if you are married when the baby is born.

First, dont accept the baby is yours. Get a good aggressive lawyer now. The money you spent now will save you 100s of thousand of dollars.

Kick her out now, start the separation/divorce process.

You can always reconcile if the child really is yours (paternity test about $100) and if she's truly remorseful.


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## MattMatt

TornNBroken said:


> What's an NC letter?
> 
> There are a lot of abbreviations on here....is there a list somewhere of what they all mean? I've figured out most by reading other threads, but some i don't know.


It means No Contact. Basically it is a letter that says: "Other Man/Woman I, Ms/Mr Cheatenspouse want no further contact from you. We are over."


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## DaddyLongShanks

walkonmars said:


> It's a 99.99% certainty she is lying to you for whatever reason. "Two times only" is a big lie. But the # of times is not the real issue. As Shamwow said, find out everything you can about the OM.
> 
> He dropped her like a hot potato once he found out she was pg. Did you have a sperm count done while you were trying to start a family?
> 
> Have a little respect for yourself. Right now she isxin panic mode and unsure of paternity - but she'll never admit it to you. You are being gaslighted big time. Follow Shamwow's excellent advice.


He coulda been screwing the hell out of her until he found out she got pregnant. Dropped her a$$, and figured you'd pick it up where he left of at, raising the child.


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## aug

As another poster wrote earlier, do NOT put your name as the father of the baby until DNA tests confirm you are.


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## MattMatt

walkonmars said:


> It's a 99.99% certainty she is lying to you for whatever reason. "Two times only" is a big lie. But the # of times is not the real issue. As Shamwow said, find out everything you can about the OM.
> 
> He dropped her like a hot potato once he found out she was pg. Did you have a sperm count done while you were trying to start a family?
> 
> Have a little respect for yourself. Right now she isxin panic mode and unsure of paternity - but she'll never admit it to you. You are being gaslighted big time. Follow Shamwow's excellent advice.


Remember that evil person who deliberately seeks out pregnant women to cheat with? Might be similar scenario?


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## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> I haven't asked for anymore details yet, cause I really don't want any more mental pictures than what I have already. And I've read varying opinions on whether details are helpful or not. I don't want to hear something that I can never forget and regret asking later. What if this guy is better looking than me? What if he's not? Either way, it sucks. What if he's in great shape, how could I ever feel comfortable around her if we reconciled and I'm constantly thinking that she doesn't like MY body. What if he's a fat, gross, ugly dude? That would almost make it worse cause she found our marriage so bad that she just needed any old pig to be with...
> 
> I dunno.
> 
> Do I want a name? Do I wanna see his face online? Right now in my head its all vague terrible thoughts. Do I really wanna put a face to the headless body that's screwing my wife in my mind?


The answer you want to hear is NO. The answer you NEED to hear is: YES.

You must know who he is because how in the hell will you know she's stopped seeing this guy? Is he a coworker? A neighbor? The mayor? You have no idea who he is, you therefore have no idea if she can be removed from him in the first place.

The other reason is because YOU MUST NOW BLOW UP THE AFFAIR. Affairs thrive in secrecy and the "spark" she seems addicted to will be immediately shattered once this is dragged out into the open. If he's married or has a GF, SHE must know what she's facing - A POS cheating mate, gift-wrapped with a potential step-child and child support payments.

I know you want to hide from this - who wouldn't? But you must now step up - be the kind of man who will fight for his family - and make your demands:

1) A complete timeline of all events - first meeting, flirting, how they communicated, how she hid it, first kiss, etc. You must know these facts, as painful as they are, or believe me, you will NEVER be able to move on. It sucks, but it's part of the pain your wife chose to inflict on you.

2) NO CONTACT. She writes a letter that you approve, and you both send to him. No contact, EVER again.

3) She loses social media, must give up all passwords to all computers. Never again can a call log or text message be deleted - you get to do that. She has no right to secrecy.

4) You tell EVERYONE, including her work if he's a coworker. Threaten legal action unless they are separated by any means necessary. You tell both families and your circle of friends. 

5) You expose to his wife or GF. Make her do it.

6) STD and DNA tests. You have AT BEST at 50/50 chance that you are the father.

7) Tell her once the facts are written, she must submit to a polygraph. (Yes there are different opinions on it). Just the serious threat may get you additional information and details.

8) Tell her at any point if she is uncooperative or resistant it's over. You HAVE TO BE WILLING TO RISK LOSING HER in order to have any chance at saving the marriage. This doesn't make a lot of sense in your state of shock and panic, but it's crucial. If she faces no real punishment and risk of real loss, she will not be really remorseful.

9) Finally, search out and read up on doing the "180". It is imperative that you begin to rebuild your sense of self-esteem and sense of being a single person again. The marriage may not survive, and you need to regain your individuality as you work toward whatever conclusion comes.

Keep coming here with updates - these folks are heroes and will help you tremendously.

So sorry you are in the club.


----------



## InlandTXMM

DaddyLongShanks said:


> He coulda been screwing the hell out of her until he found out she got pregnant. Dropped her a$$, and figured you'd pick it up where he left of at, raising the child.


Some of the cheater sites actually post this as a strategy used by these d-bags. Free sex and someone else to clean up the mess they leave behind.

OP, that person the man wants to leave with his mess is YOU.

Get angry already.


----------



## aug

Start the divorce process now. Talk to a damm good family lawyer now. You want to protect your legal position now, the earlier the better. I know you're an emotional wreck right now but dont delay this. You're the one who's going to get caught if you dilly-dally.

You can always call off the divorce if the baby is yours and you want to reconcile.

You dont have much time left before the baby is born. Let's hope she told you the truth when she got pregnant. 6 months left?


----------



## Cabsy

Your woman sounds a lot like mine. She liked being "one of the guys" and liked the attention. She hadn't had many guy friends in the past, so she didn't want to accept there were dangers, she didn't differentiate between male/female friendships, and she let boundaries get crossed with a co-worker. 

She wanted the butterflies (though she never told me.. anything), didn't seem to understand the stages of relationships, didn't understand she was infatuated and not in love with the other guy, and she lied to everyone (including herself) to justify her actions. I hope your woman is clear-headed and telling the complete truth - because it's bad enough already - but that's probably not the case.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

aug said:


> As another poster wrote earlier, do NOT put your name as the father of the baby until DNA tests confirm you are.


The DNA testing is necessary but it's also the responsible thing to do.

Also if you look at it from a repurcussions stage, it has to happen, it's part of the repurcussions.

She won't feel too good having to do this ( neither do you ), but it has to be done and she needs to have those feelings. She can't just feel that you are going to save her from this mess she put on you.


----------



## Shamwow

verpin zal said:


> NC = No contact letter. She writes it, you read it, and send it to OM.
> 
> And TnB, Shamwow has spoken. When he chooses to speak, you would be wise to choose to listen.
> 
> Might as well go to his thread and see what the man has endured.


Thanks for the props, but basically what I learned here during my experience changed my life, and what new posters need to realize is the same thing I did...things are not always as they seem, love in marriage cannot be unconditional, people need to put their best selves forward, stand up for themselves and not take betrayal as a "speedbump". It sounds cynical, but once you've been through this you realize that everything is negotiable and caring for yourself is paramount. Good things follow once you accept and embrace that. Some people find it comes easy, others (like me) needed a massive jolt to see things from the outside.

Torn...I'm divorced now a year and a half, but happily and on my terms. Consider that could be you too, after something like this. It's not the end of the world. Just the end of a chapter. That said, your marriage may be salvageable, but please listen to the people here who have been through similar or worse, and are posting for your benefit. None of us want to see someone make the same mistakes we did. Road map, if you will. Everyone's situations are different, but you'll find they're surprisingly identical too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator

There is a DNA test that can be administered to your W to determine paternity of the child. You need to know if that child, is indeed yours.

Then you can better decide what course of action to take. 

In any event, what has your W said or done lately that would merit your total confidence in your believing her? Silence?

That's exactly what I thought!


----------



## SomedayDig

Shamwow said:


> Everyone's situations are different, but you'll find they're surprisingly identical too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bazinga!

And we've all thought our situations were different. Our wives were not what the posters portrayed.

Guess again.


----------



## InlandTXMM

SomedayDig said:


> Bazinga!
> 
> And we've all thought our situations were different. Our wives were not what the posters portrayed.
> 
> Guess again.


One of life's toughest, and most important lessons. Sadly.


----------



## TornNBroken

Okay, I just sent her this:

"I need you to answer these questions. If I find out you have lied (or not told the entire truth) about any of these, we're done.

What is his name? 
Is he married? Have a girlfriend? 
How did you meet him?
When did you start a relationship?
Was there other intimacy before you slept with him? 
When is the last time you talked/texted/emailed/had any communication with him? 
Have you told him its over?
How many times did you sleep with him? 
What were the dates? 
Did he know you were married?
Did he know you were pregnant?
Have you cheated with anyone else since we've been married? That means anything from kissing to sex. 
Did he use a condom? 
Did he cum inside of you? 
Is there ANY, and I mean ANY, chance that its his baby? We ARE going to have a paternity test done no matter what, so you should be honest.
Have you been tested for STDs? If not, go do it."

I'm shaking right now, and I don't know if its cause all your posts are making it "real" or what, but this sucks. 

I'm a Christian, and I'm wondering if any of you are that have gone through/are going through this? If so, has that made anything different for you?


----------



## InlandTXMM

I am Christian. Funny- adultery was the ONE thing Jesus said was grounds for divorce. Now you know why.


----------



## Dday

Like a lot of others here have said I am sorry you are here. It fing sucks! I am in close to the same position as you as me and my wife have been together since high school. We are married with 3 kids and I found out she was screwing another guy, that I know, and she would actually bring around for 9 months. I found out about 2 weeks ago and I still love my wife and I want to stay for the kids. 

I can't give advice because my situation is so new but I know how you feel. I got every detail about the affair and it sucks but for me i needed to know everything. All I can say is good luck and stay strong because it will not get any easier anytime soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## InlandTXMM

This is getting real now. Our tough love is because we know you will be an emotional wreck and feel lost and out of control. These are proven methods to get the full and complete truth, gauge your wife's sincerity on reconciling, and give you back the control over the situation that you lost.

This is a game of chicken from now on - the first one who flinches, loses. Remember that.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

InlandTXMM said:


> Some of the cheater sites actually post this as a strategy used by these d-bags. Free sex and someone else to clean up the mess they leave behind.
> 
> OP, that person the man wants to leave with his mess is YOU.
> 
> Get angry already.


Do you have cheating sites, which are recommendations for wives and girlfriends to use? I think it will make some of the men's stomach turn.


----------



## TornNBroken

Dday said:


> Like a lot of others here have said I am sorry you are here. It fing sucks! I am in close to the same position as you as me and my wife have been together since high school. We are married with 3 kids and I found out she was screwing another guy, that I know, and she would actually bring around for 9 months. I found out about 2 weeks ago and I still love my wife and I want to stay for the kids.
> 
> I can't give advice because my situation is so new but I know how you feel. I got every detail about the affair and it sucks but for me i needed to know everything. All I can say is good luck and stay strong because it will not get any easier anytime soon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you get more specific details than the questions I posted? Part of me wants to know every disgusting detail including positions, did she orgasm, did she do things that she never did with me, etc? But I can't imagine there's any good reason to know those things.

TNB


----------



## MattMatt

InlandTXMM said:


> I am Christian. Funny- adultery was the ONE thing Jesus said was grounds for divorce. Now you know why.


Yeah. But he said "you could." He didn't say "you must."


----------



## TornNBroken

MattMatt said:


> Yeah. But he said "you could." He didn't say "you must."


Exactly. And I know the true way to show God's love to others (including a cheating spouse) is to show forgiveness, which is God's ultimate gift to us.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> Okay, I just sent her this:
> 
> "I need you to answer these questions. If I find out you have lied (or not told the entire truth) about any of these, we're done.
> 
> What is his name?
> Is he married? Have a girlfriend?
> How did you meet him?
> When did you start a relationship?
> Was there other intimacy before you slept with him?
> When is the last time you talked/texted/emailed/had any communication with him?
> Have you told him its over?
> How many times did you sleep with him?
> What were the dates?
> Did he know you were married?
> Did he know you were pregnant?
> Have you cheated with anyone else since we've been married? That means anything from kissing to sex.
> Did he use a condom?
> Did he cum inside of you?
> Is there ANY, and I mean ANY, chance that its his baby? We ARE going to have a paternity test done no matter what, so you should be honest.
> Have you been tested for STDs? If not, go do it."
> 
> I'm shaking right now, and I don't know if its cause all your posts are making it "real" or what, but this sucks.
> 
> I'm a Christian, and I'm wondering if any of you are that have gone through/are going through this? If so, has that made anything different for you?


Yes. This does suck.

And before March 6, 2012 (my own Dday) I was an ordained wedding minister. Technically, I still am...however I can't (even though my wife and I are working on reconciliation) find it in myself to help marry couples.

Good list of questions. Makes sure that you ask them again in another couple of months. I did. That's when I found out the rest of the truth.

Until I asked her to answer the questions again a couple months later.

And got the rest of the truth...

It's tough brother. We who have gone through this feel for you.


----------



## MattMatt

TornNBroken said:


> Did you get more specific details than the questions I posted? Part of me wants to know every disgusting detail including positions, did she orgasm, did she do things that she never did with me, etc? But I can't imagine there's any good reason to know those things.
> 
> TNB


Under your circumstances I can see why you would. But in my case? I wanted no details whatsover. Just knowing about the infidelity was enough for me, to be honest.


----------



## InlandTXMM

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Do you have cheating sites, which are recommendations for wives and girlfriends to use? I think it will make some of the men's stomach turn.


There used to be a really terrible one called d0c c00l . com (remove the spaces and use "o", not zero. It turns out the owner of the site actually had a change of heart once he started reading some of the really evil and narcisstic posts on his website, and turned it into an anti-cheating site.

You should read the venom being sprayed at him now.

Of course there is the AM website that actually is a dating site for people looking to cheat - they have a blog with statistics about the #1 most cheating cities, careers, ages, etc.

Guys? Any others?


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> So here's my situation,
> 
> My wife of nearly six years just told me that she has been cheating on my for the last two months, starting in late February.


Did you catch her or did she just approach you with this? If she came to you, she's lying about the time frame. If you caught her, she's also lying. So did you catch her?



TornNBroken said:


> March 4th we found out she was 5 weeks pregnant (so definitely mine......I think???).


No. They've been doing it for longer than that and they never used a rubber once. If you have frequent sex with your wife, it could be anybody's kid. Did you have any dry spells in the last couple of months?




TornNBroken said:


> She said its some guy I don't know


The hell you say. Get his name and address. How did they met? Give her the third degree.



TornNBroken said:


> and that they slept together twice,


Whenever a woman gives you a sex number, multiply by ten. If it's affair sex and it's your wife, multiply by 25 and you're getting warm. Women always minimize their partner count and their frequency. In fact, this guy may not be the first or the only one at this time.



TornNBroken said:


> once before and once after we found out about the baby.


And the moon is made of green cheese. She's a liar and an adulteress.



TornNBroken said:


> I'm SO freaking upset, and hurt, and confused, and sick to my stomach. I've been doing nothing but reading about infidelity online since I found out. I had to leave the house, cause I just can't look at my wife. I've been staying at a hotel and don't know what to do from here.
> 
> I keep going back and forth between feelings of despair and thinking "How can I ever love her again?" to hopefulness because I read stories of people who's marriage is supposedly better after an affair.


Only if it was a very very bad marriage before.




TornNBroken said:


> Most of the time though I feel like I would leave her if not for the baby. I mean, that's MY KID (our first).


You won't know that until you do the DNA.




TornNBroken said:


> I don't want that kid to grow up with split up parents. I don't want partial visitation rights, I want him/her to grow up in a solid household with two loving biological parents, like i did.


There is a very good chance it's the OM's kid. Just relax about all this until the DNA findings are in.




TornNBroken said:


> If I leave my wife, it will ruin her.


She's already ruined herself, you had nothing to do with it. She has to bear the marks of her sins, you can't do it for her.



TornNBroken said:


> She is so ashamed of what she's done and she is SOOOOO sorry.
> I can't imagine her having to face our families and friends and admit to her cheating on me as we were trying/were newly pregnant. She'd be humiliated and crushed....and she already has self image/self esteem issues.


Again, you may not have anything to do with her pregnancy. It's too soon to say. You need to go ahead and expose now, so your actions which you may be forced to take will be understood.



TornNBroken said:


> When I think of the hurt it would cause if I left her, and the damage it would cause to my future kids life, I think there's no way I can leave her. I think that we can just keep this quiet from everyone, get counseling at a different church, and work through this...
> 
> BUT HOW THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO GET OVER THIS!?!


By moving on. On the off chance that you are the father, you may decide you want to work it out. But, remember that she'll always know she got away with it. She'll always remember that it was the hottest sex she ever had. And then one day, when she gets a relapse of the 7 year itch, yo can come back here again.



TornNBroken said:


> ALL i can think about is her F$*$ing another guy! WITH MY BABY GROWING INSIDE HER! AUGH!!!!!!
> 
> How can I ever get over that?
> 
> I don't want to live a miserable life with a sham marriage just cause I think it would be "good" for my kid. I know raising kids in a broken marriage can be just as bad, or worse than raising them in two different households.
> 
> I DO love her, I always have. We were high school sweethearts and have been together for over 12 years now. If I knew that we could get back to a loving marriage and I could forgive her, then I should try for that in order to provide the right life for my kid....but I'm so torn, because if there were no kid, I think I'd be gone, so then I feel like I'm justifying doing the "wrong" thing just because of a child.
> 
> I don't know what to do, I'm sorry this is so long. Where do I go from here?
> 
> I had to miss the first ultrasound cause of work, but I was so excited for the next one in a few weeks....
> 
> NOW.....
> 
> This was supposed to be the start of something so special (becoming a FAMILY!) and I feel like she's stolen that from me. I also feel so pressured, because if this IS going to get reconciled, I feel like I have 7 months to do it, and from everything I read, its a MUCH LONGER process.


You've been beta-ized by your wife and now she's lying to you. Are you into online gaming? 

You have no idea how long, how many times, or how many men? Get this guy's name address and photo; you'll probably need it for the paternity suit.

Have you read "Married Man Sex Life Primer" yet? If not, get it and read it. That book will explain to you how you got here; namely by being a nice guy and not a sexually exciting "bad boy". Also read "No More Mr. Nice Guy." Don't let your wife know you're reading these.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> Did you get more specific details than the questions I posted? Part of me wants to know every disgusting detail including positions, did she orgasm, did she do things that she never did with me, etc? But I can't imagine there's any good reason to know those things.
> 
> TNB


I needed to know because my imagination was running wild. I had to know the truth to stop some of the mind movies. It actually did help me. Not saying that works for everyone.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

InlandTXMM said:


> There used to be a really terrible one called d0c c00l . com (remove the spaces and use "o", not zero. It turns out the owner of the site actually had a change of heart once he started reading some of the really evil and narcisstic posts on his website, and turned it into an anti-cheating site.
> 
> You should read the venom being sprayed at him now.
> 
> Of course there is the AM website that actually is a dating site for people looking to cheat - they have a blog with statistics about the #1 most cheating cities, careers, ages, etc.
> 
> Guys? Any others?


can you please PM me those sites, it blocked them off.

I want to learn from the other perspective to understand these situations better in case I need to cut them off.


----------



## Dday

TornNBroken said:


> Did you get more specific details than the questions I posted? Part of me wants to know every disgusting detail including positions, did she orgasm, did she do things that she never did with me, etc? But I can't imagine there's any good reason to know those things.
> 
> TNB


I did. I got every detail. How she finished in positions that I never made her. How she swallowed and she would refuse with me. It's painful but I know she was telling the truth and not holding anything back. I don't know if it helps but I feel once I have all of the answers I don't have as big of a imagination.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## InlandTXMM

DaddyLongShanks said:


> can you please PM me those sites, it blocked them off.
> 
> I want to learn from the other perspective to understand these situations better in case I need to cut them off.


I had to adjust the original post because this site (thankfully) censors those sites from being mentioned. PM me if you still can't see them.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

As far as the STD test, if she is pregnant I would be surprised if they don't check for that stuff anyway.


----------



## TornNBroken

How am I supposed to go through the next 7 months of the pregnancy? What if she WAS telling the truth. What if it was just twice and she never did anything like this again? I know I know, you probably think I'm being naive, but lets just assume. Lets also assume this IS my kid. And lets assume she is 100% committed to reconciling...then what?

How am I supposed to conduct myself until a DNA test can be done after the kid is born? From what I read, all the tests done before the kid is born carry a risk to the pregnancy, and that's not something I'm will to do.


----------



## walkonmars

InlandTXMM said:


> There used to be a really terrible one called d0c c00l . com (remove the spaces and use "o", not zero. It turns out the owner of the site actually had a change of heart once he started reading some of the really evil and narcisstic posts on his website, and turned it into an anti-cheating site.
> 
> You should read the venom being sprayed at him now.
> 
> Of course there is the AM website that actually is a dating site for people looking to cheat - they have a blog with statistics about the #1 most cheating cities, careers, ages, etc.
> 
> Guys? Any others?


Most of doc's people are on private affairs dot com


----------



## InlandTXMM

walkonmars said:


> Most of doc's people are on private affairs dot com


Sickens me. I have more contempt for cheaters than about anyone else. But to see them get together and cheer each other on? Provide helpful hints on how to be MORE dishonest? Help each other rationalize and berate their spouses?

There is a DEEP circle in Hell waiting for these people.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> How am I supposed to go through the next 7 months of the pregnancy?


You don't. You do a prenatal DNA test.




TornNBroken said:


> What if she WAS telling the truth. What if it was just twice and she never did anything like this again?


Come on, now.



TornNBroken said:


> I know I know, you probably think I'm being naive, but lets just assume. Lets also assume this IS my kid. And lets assume she is 100% committed to reconciling...then what?


If it's your kid it will show up in the DNA test. If she is 100% committed to reconciling and it's your kid, then you choose her or you choose to move on.




TornNBroken said:


> How am I supposed to conduct myself until a DNA test can be done after the kid is born? From what I read, all the tests done before the kid is born carry a risk to the pregnancy, and that's not something I'm will to do.


You're not willing to learn the truth. Modern tests have practically no risk, it's just a blood draw from the mother and alleged father. Quit trying to talk yourself out of getting the facts.


----------



## Thoreau

But Mach....he doesnt want to cause her anymore pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> How am I supposed to go through the next 7 months of the pregnancy? What if she WAS telling the truth. What if it was just twice and she never did anything like this again? I know I know, you probably think I'm being naive, but lets just assume. Lets also assume this IS my kid. And lets assume she is 100% committed to reconciling...then what?
> 
> How am I supposed to conduct myself until a DNA test can be done after the kid is born? From what I read, all the tests done before the kid is born carry a risk to the pregnancy, and that's not something I'm will to do.


TNB, here's the part you need to accept: you will be processing this for much longer than the baby's birth. 

First things first. You need to know what you are expected to forgive. ALL of it. The nightmares become less, the mental imagery a little softer, once you have the facts. The uncertainty is going to eat you alive. It doesn't make it go away. It just lessens the impact a bit because, at least for me, my mind conjured up all sorts of horrors on its own.

Next, realize that the power in this is now YOURS. You have the right to decide whether to reconcile or divorce. On whatever time frame YOU are comfortable with. There is no reason to rush to one decision or another. You need the facts first. Was this her first affair? You have no idea.

You need to see first if she is completely remorseful or not. One of the ways you will determine this is by her complete and full compliance with all of the demands I and the others have given you, and any others you want. YOU ARE NOW IN CONTROL. You can't control what she did to you, but you DO have control over what happens next.

Breathe! Go for a walk tonight. Make sure you eat. Stay away from alcohol and call some friends or family for company. Stay away from your wife until YOU feel like you are in a strong enough place to deal with it.

You are the man. You are the husband. Yes, she has betrayed and wronged you in the worst way possible. And you had no control over her actions.

But you have control now over every single thing you do. Accept that. It'll be enough. I'll also be praying for you!


----------



## TornNBroken

Thanks Inland, I appreciate all your thoughts and prayers.

Thoreau, thanks for being a ****. I REALLY don't need any intentionally unhelpful comments right now.


----------



## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> Thanks Inland, I appreciate all your thoughts and prayers.
> 
> Thoreau, thanks for being a ****. I REALLY don't need any intentionally unhelpful comments right now.


This is what we tried to warn you. This isn't him being snide or rude. This is a way to punch you between the eyes a bit. You won't believe how many guys on here try everything they can to avoid looking at the elephant in the room.

This is TOUGH LOVE. Take it in that spirit. And LEARN. We have all walked this road before you.


----------



## TornNBroken

No, tough love is telling me tough things I don't want to hear, but need to...which I DO appreciate. His comment was just mocking the fact that I still have concern for my wife. Yes, she totally betrayed me, but the fact that I don't necessarily want to cause her additional pain shouldn't be made fun of. I feel like some people just want me to get revenge.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

TornNBroken said:


> No, tough love is telling me tough things I don't want to hear, but need to...which I DO appreciate. His comment was just mocking the fact that I still have concern for my wife. Yes, she totally betrayed me, but the fact that I don't necessarily want to cause her additional pain shouldn't be made fun of. I feel like some people just want me to get revenge.


Some of it isn't revenge but repurcussions. The psychology works a certain way and you have to work with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cabsy

Maybe she is telling the truth, broke it off with the other guy, confessed to you to based on her personal code of ethics and decided to have your kid with you based on her love for you. Or maybe she found out she was pregnant, panicked because she'd been sleeping with someone else, and decided her best way out was to "come clean" to you. You're just now asking the hard questions, so there's no telling what you might find.

I'm not so completely jaded that I don't still hope for the best, but I do have a deep understanding of how twisted a cheater's mind can be. They look like the same person you loved, but for as long as they hold a place for someone else in their hearts, they are not themselves. Similarly if her fear of losing you trumps the truth, she'll make her play based on that fear. It sounds pretty basic if you type it out, but if she isn't thinking clearly and/or is out for her own gain/preservation, she'll say/do whatever she feels she must to maintain her reality.

Just keep that in the back of your head. As I'm holding out hope, I won't squash yours any more.


----------



## InlandTXMM

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Some of it isn't revenge but repurcussions. The psychology works a certain way and you have to work with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You sound like a regular Christian Nice Guy. A knight in shining armor rushing in to rescue the fair maiden.

This is a Jezebel moment for you. There is no damsel in a tower. You now have to face another man's mistress and call her your wife. You didn't do that - she did. But you need to realize the lay of the land. Once she's off the pedestal in your mind you can deal with her as a damaged human being. That was the purpose of his comment.

These guys may be cynical and even jaded at times but I promise you, a week or two from now you will thank them for it.


----------



## InlandTXMM

The counselor told her to tell him. She confessed to the counselor and the counselor told her she needed to come clean.


----------



## Shamwow

TornNBroken said:


> No, tough love is telling me tough things I don't want to hear, but need to...which I DO appreciate. His comment was just mocking the fact that I still have concern for my wife. Yes, she totally betrayed me, but the fact that I don't necessarily want to cause her additional pain shouldn't be made fun of. I feel like some people just want me to get revenge.


We understand the pushback, but I doubt he was mocking you Torn. Take it how you will, as it's okay and *expected* to have concern for your wife's feelings through all of this (if you didn't you'd be a sociopath), but realize that now that the trust has been broken you really need to think about your concerns and well being first. Won't happen overnight, so it's okay to be offended. Most of us have had the 2x4 to the head and taken it personally...at first.


----------



## TornNBroken

I'm sorry, maybe I was being too defensive. I'm not totally thinking clearly...hard to believe, right? I just feel like I'm trying to hold on to the hope that this isn't as terrible as I think it might be, and you guys are crushing that hope. But I know you are all coming from a place of experience and are trying to shed some light on a confused, hurt, husband. 

It hurts, and I'm not ready to assume the worst, but like I said, I see where you guys are coming from, so thanks.


----------



## Vanguard

TornNBroken said:


> No, tough love is telling me tough things I don't want to hear, but need to...which I DO appreciate. His comment was just mocking the fact that I still have concern for my wife. Yes, she totally betrayed me, but the fact that I don't necessarily want to cause her additional pain shouldn't be made fun of. I feel like some people just want me to get revenge.


Listen to me.

No matter what, there will always be a part of you that loves her. You are going to have to simply suck it up and haul it with you for the rest of your life. 500 lbs will always be 500 lbs. You'll just get better at carrying it. 

God it sucks right now, I know it does. It is difficult for me to go back and remember the things that happened when I found out my ex cheated on me. It's been two years. I'm happier now than I've ever been. I have a great new job, I have an amazing girlfriend who is successful and ten years younger than me. I live in Florida with my friends and family. 

But there are still times when I wake up and forget that my wife isn't sleeping right next to me. 

You will always carry this. I'm sorry but that's the reality of the situation. But you can start anew. You can leave her and find someone who deserves you. There is *LIFE* waiting for you out there man.

But if you decide to reconcile, I don't care what she says or does, you will ALWAYS be wondering if she's really going to the store like she says she is. You will ALWAYS wonder while you're out working to provide for her, what does the cable guy look like? What are they talking about? What are they doing? You will never come to a point where you can completely trust her because she has established herself as an untrustworthy person. She has a defined breaking point and you have no idea if and when that breaking point will approach her life again. 

And whoever told you that marriages can become _better_ after an affair lied to you.


----------



## TornNBroken

Vanguard said:


> But if you decide to reconcile, I don't care what she says or does, you will ALWAYS be wondering if she's really going to the store like she says she is. You will ALWAYS wonder while you're out working to provide for her, what does the cable guy look like? What are they talking about? What are they doing? You will never come to a point where you can completely trust her because she has established herself as an untrustworthy person. She has a defined breaking point and you have no idea if and when that breaking point will approach her life again.
> 
> And whoever told you that marriages can become _better_ after an affair lied to you.


If this is true (and I have no reason to think its not), then what is the point of reconciling? Seems better to just break it off and start fresh if I have to live a marriage where I can never TRULY trust . BUT if this kid IS mine, then I will never be free from her. If we divorced, I'd still be seeing her on a weekly basis most likely. God, that sounds awful. How freaking awkward would that be. And would I still see my in laws? Could I go to the park with my kid and my mother-in-law? Why not? But how weird.

Ugh. My mind is racing.




HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE FOR HER TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.

TNB


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, maybe I was being too defensive. I'm not totally thinking clearly...hard to believe, right? I just feel like I'm trying to hold on to the hope that this isn't as terrible as I think it might be, and you guys are crushing that hope. But I know you are all coming from a place of experience and are trying to shed some light on a confused, hurt, husband.
> 
> It hurts, and I'm not ready to assume the worst, but like I said, I see where you guys are coming from, so thanks.


We know a lot of the stuff were telling you is illogical. I personally wish I didn't get the lesson the way I did. A lot of us have concern and compassion for someone in a position we were once in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE FOR HER TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.
> 
> TNB


Long enough to cover her tracks and get the story straight with the OM, and then she will give you only what she thinks you already know.

See this is the part that is almost unbearable - Trickle Truth. You will get what she will swear on her life is the full truth. Expect it to be 5% of the truth. Then a week later, as your mind punches holes in the story, you'll get another 5%, then a month later, 10%.

By the end of it you'll hear about oral, kinky stuff she'd never done with you, exotic locations, hand jobs under the table somewhere... it's endless.

It's a living hell. And the worst part is? She's now lied so much you will NEVER trust her completely again. In trying to cover her butt and "save you from more pain" (always my favorite), she will lie and lie and lie and you get to re-live your D-Day over and over and over.

This is the reality you now face. The sooner you embrace it the faster you can begin to work on healing you. 

And by the way, you will HAVE to heal you before you have any chance of healing this marriage. Doing it backward will fail.


----------



## workindad

OP- sorry for you situation. I would not do any paternity tests until after the baby is born for the reasons you mention. However, I would certainly do the tests once the child is born. Both of you should be tested for STDs especially her since proper care now is vital to the child continued development if she is positive for something.

There is a chance that her OM dumped her when he found out she's pregnant. He could have just been interested in the sex and have no interest in the responsibility. It seems kind of strange that she would start cheating for the first time while trying to get pregnant, but what do I know.


----------



## TornNBroken

Even though this totally sucks balls, I'm so glad I stumbled across this place where I can get almost instant feedback from people who have been through this. Thank you guys so much for being here.

TNB


----------



## TornNBroken

She emailed me from her iphone...

"The Internet isn't working and I'd rather do this on a computer. Can you give me some time? I could email you tomorrow."

WTF. Now I'm paranoid.


----------



## walkonmars

TornNBroken said:


> If this is true (and I have no reason to think its not), then what is the point of reconciling? Seems better to just break it off and start fresh if I have to live a marriage where I can never TRULY trust . BUT if this kid IS mine, then I will never be free from her. If we divorced, I'd still be seeing her on a weekly basis most likely. God, that sounds awful. How freaking awkward would that be. And would I still see my in laws? Could I go to the park with my kid and my mother-in-law? Why not? But how weird.
> 
> Ugh. My mind is racing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE FOR HER TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.
> 
> TNB


There are plenty here who are in R and happy that they are. The poster someday dig is one of them. Read his thread. He didn't allow gaslighting or bllsh1t, accepted no trickle truth (still got some tho). But he and the reconcillers are strong and self-confident. 

They don't view their spouses as being indispensible. The CHOOSE to R not out of need but out of love AND a second chance. They don't accept rugsweeping. So it can be done BUT from a position of strength. I won't put any more words in their mouth and didn't intend to do so. 

But you deserve hope. BUT ONLY when you're ready. IMO you are a loooong way from that. There is much to learn. PLUS your wife needs to actually earn the second chance. Again, waaaaay to early to even consider it.


----------



## Thoreau

Torn....my friend....just listen to us and put it into practice asap. It wont always be what you want to hear. ..but you will come out the other side a better man. With or without her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, maybe I was being too defensive. I'm not totally thinking clearly...hard to believe, right? I just feel like I'm trying to hold on to the hope that this isn't as terrible as I think it might be, and you guys are crushing that hope. But I know you are all coming from a place of experience and are trying to shed some light on a confused, hurt, husband.
> 
> It hurts, and I'm not ready to assume the worst, but like I said, I see where you guys are coming from, so thanks.


Assume the worst so you do not continue downward. If she is telling the truth right away she will be the first WS to do so.

You expose to make sure the A is over and to get support as you will need it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Vanguard

TornNBroken said:


> If this is true (and I have no reason to think its not), then what is the point of reconciling? Seems better to just break it off and start fresh if I have to live a marriage where I can never TRULY trust . BUT if this kid IS mine, then I will never be free from her. If we divorced, I'd still be seeing her on a weekly basis most likely. God, that sounds awful. How freaking awkward would that be. And would I still see my in laws? Could I go to the park with my kid and my mother-in-law? Why not? But how weird.
> 
> Ugh. My mind is racing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE FOR HER TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.
> 
> TNB


I'm sure this will earn the ire of many people here.

Who says you have to be in her life? Even if it's your kid? She cheated on you man. She gave your mind pause. You have been put in the situation where you now have to *FVCKING FIND OUT IF THIS IS YOUR KID OR NOT*. That is not fair to you. 

So leave her. If it were me I'd divorce her right now. I'm not saying it would be easy. Without a doubt this is going to be the most painful thing in your entire life. But you need to saw the poisoned limb off or it will eat you alive. 

Women use society to enslave men, so they can fool around and yet keep their provider male. You don't have to be that. You have a choice right now. You can give in to her and be a cuckold, or you can force her to come to terms with what she's done. You can make her face the consequences of her actions. 

I know I must seem awfully black and white right now, but I promise you it really is that simple. When someone cheats on you, they have shown you that they have a breaking point. Which is to say they have shown you that there is a point where they are willing to quit. 

I say don't accept that. There are people out there who won't cheat on you. You can find her. 

Much to the chagrin of my compatriots here, I am in the "pro-divorce" camp. I believe that when a spouse cheats, the marriage is irrevocably envenomed, for reasons I have already handily demonstrated. I think sometimes if people divorce and spend time apart, they can come together at a later point and have a new marriage, but in my experience, the ones who are obstinate enough to "make it work" will limp around until one of them finally decides to admit that it's a joke. 

There's a reason cheating hurts so much. It rends and cauterizes worse than any molten blade man can forge. You can try to mash all the ash and rot together to make it fit, or you can find a woman who deserves you and watch life and blessings from God blossom out of you.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> She emailed me from her iphone...
> 
> "The Internet isn't working and I'd rather do this on a computer. Can you give me some time? I could email you tomorrow."
> 
> WTF. Now I'm paranoid.


That's the problem, brother. You're gonna be paranoid for a reason. She has already deceived you. It's a done deal. Now, she's gonna attempt to cover her tracks and minimize any damage she can.

Tell ya what. I'm gonna ask my wife for her copy of the Cheater's Manual and see if I can post it in the morning.

In all seriousness...again, I'm sorry you're here.


----------



## workindad

TornNBroken said:


> She emailed me from her iphone...
> 
> "The Internet isn't working and I'd rather do this on a computer. Can you give me some time? I could email you tomorrow."
> 
> WTF. Now I'm paranoid.




Are you sure OM is out of the picture??


----------



## TornNBroken

jim123 said:


> If she is telling the truth right away she will be the first WS to do so._Posted via Mobile Device_


Is this true? Is there ANYONE here that didn't find out more after an initial confession?.....anyone who got the whole story upfront? 

There's gotta be some spouse who had one messed up night, realized they F-ed up and apologized...right? No trickle-truth.


----------



## workindad

My XW lied her a$$ off


----------



## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> She emailed me from her iphone...
> 
> "The Internet isn't working and I'd rather do this on a computer. Can you give me some time? I could email you tomorrow."
> 
> WTF. Now I'm paranoid.


Translation:

OM and I haven't finished getting the story straight.


----------



## HappyHubby

TornNBroken said:


> Is this true? Is there ANYONE here that didn't find out more after an initial confession?.....anyone who got the whole story upfront?
> 
> There's gotta be some spouse who had one messed up night, realized they F-ed up and apologized...right? No trickle-truth.


Yes there have been. Find a thread by Tears. She was the wayward wife and owned up to everything at once as far as we know.

There have been others but they are the exception. 

I almost don't want to even tell you this in case you latch on to this hope and close your eyes. Understand that because its possible, you have no reason to believe you are special and you will get the whole truth right away. Assume you wont and proceed from that standpoint as a matter of keeping your sanity and doing what is necessary to keep your self-respect.


----------



## HappyHubby

Tears' was a ONS (one night stand) and she owned up to it a few days later. She was super remorseful but last I checked they are divorcing.. ?

Since yours was multiple times over a period of time, it's more likely its a whole lot of multiples for a longer period than she first mentioned. Just probability... being distrusting and double-checking everything is the only way to assess the veracity of this.


----------



## Machiavelli

InlandTXMM said:


> I am Christian. Funny- adultery was the ONE thing Jesus said was grounds for divorce. Now you know why.


10,000 likes.


----------



## InlandTXMM

HappyHubby said:


> Yes there have been. Find a thread by Tears. She was the wayward wife and owned up to everything at once as far as we know.
> 
> There have been others but they are the exception.
> 
> I almost don't want to even tell you this in case you latch on to this hope and close your eyes. Understand that because its possible, you have no reason to believe you are special and you will get the whole truth right away. Assume you wont and proceed from that standpoint as a matter of keeping your sanity and doing what is necessary to keep your self-respect.


He WILL want to latch on to false hope. At least right now. Man, his panic is triggering me like MAD. I had heart palpitations and ended up on blood pressure medicine for a couple of months.

Promise yourself this: NO FALSE HOPE. NO LOOKING AWAY. When the truth shows up, it'll be ugly and almost unbearable. ALMOST.

Be remember this as well: *this too shall pass.*


----------



## TornNBroken

God, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm almost hoping the kid isn't mine now just so things will be simpler. 

God damn this is so ****ed up!


----------



## walkonmars

HappyHubby said:


> Yes there have been. Find a thread by Tears. She was the wayward wife and owned up to everything at once as far as we know.
> 
> There have been others but they are the exception.
> 
> I almost don't want to even tell you this in case you latch on to this hope and close your eyes. Understand that because its possible, you have no reason to believe you are special and you will get the whole truth right away. Assume you wont and proceed from that standpoint as a matter of keeping your sanity and doing what is necessary to keep your self-respect.


:iagree:
Tears was the only one out of 8 months on this forum. She had a one night stand. One out of hundreds.and SHE came here on her own. No one told her to. ON HER OWN.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> Okay, I just sent her this:
> 
> "I need you to answer these questions. If I find out you have lied (or not told the entire truth) about any of these, we're done.
> 
> What is his name?
> Is he married? Have a girlfriend?
> How did you meet him?
> When did you start a relationship?
> Was there other intimacy before you slept with him?
> When is the last time you talked/texted/emailed/had any communication with him?
> Have you told him its over?
> How many times did you sleep with him?
> What were the dates?
> Did he know you were married?
> Did he know you were pregnant?
> Have you cheated with anyone else since we've been married? That means anything from kissing to sex.
> Did he use a condom?
> Did he cum inside of you?
> Is there ANY, and I mean ANY, chance that its his baby? We ARE going to have a paternity test done no matter what, so you should be honest.
> Have you been tested for STDs? If not, go do it."
> 
> I'm shaking right now, and I don't know if its cause all your posts are making it "real" or what, but this sucks.
> 
> I'm a Christian, and I'm wondering if any of you are that have gone through/are going through this? If so, has that made anything different for you?


Problems are best confronted head on. Don't run away from them and don't bury your head in the sand. Face them and overcome them

If you stick with this course, you are headed down the right path and MAY be able to save your marriage. You can't do it alone. She has to do most of the work. Willingly answering your questions is a good start.


----------



## Machiavelli

MattMatt said:


> Yeah. But he said "you could." He didn't say "you must."


Well, since the previous Israelite punishment for adultery was the required death of the wife and her paramour, I think He figured it might be a frequent "yes" to the divorce question.


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> Did you catch her or did she just approach you with this? If she came to you, she's lying about the time frame. If you caught her, she's also lying. So did you catch her?
> 
> 
> 
> No. They've been doing it for longer than that and they never used a rubber once. If you have frequent sex with your wife, it could be anybody's kid. Did you have any dry spells in the last couple of months?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The hell you say. Get his name and address. How did they met? Give her the third degree.
> 
> 
> 
> Whenever a woman gives you a sex number, multiply by ten. If it's affair sex and it's your wife, multiply by 25 and you're getting warm. Women always minimize their partner count and their frequency. In fact, this guy may not be the first or the only one at this time.
> 
> 
> 
> And the moon is made of green cheese. She's a liar and an adulteress.
> 
> 
> 
> Only if it was a very very bad marriage before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You won't know that until you do the DNA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a very good chance it's the OM's kid. Just relax about all this until the DNA findings are in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's already ruined herself, you had nothing to do with it. She has to bear the marks of her sins, you can't do it for her.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you may not have anything to do with her pregnancy. It's too soon to say. You need to go ahead and expose now, so your actions which you may be forced to take will be understood.
> 
> 
> 
> By moving on. On the off chance that you are the father, you may decide you want to work it out. But, remember that she'll always know she got away with it. She'll always remember that it was the hottest sex she ever had. And then one day, when she gets a relapse of the 7 year itch, yo can come back here again.
> 
> 
> 
> You've been beta-ized by your wife and now she's lying to you. Are you into online gaming?
> 
> You have no idea how long, how many times, or how many men? Get this guy's name address and photo; you'll probably need it for the paternity suit.
> 
> Have you read "Married Man Sex Life Primer" yet? If not, get it and read it. That book will explain to you how you got here; namely by being a nice guy and not a sexually exciting "bad boy". Also read "No More Mr. Nice Guy." Don't let your wife know you're reading these.


Torn Mach is trying to save you from yourself. Read this 3 times please.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> Exactly. And I know the true way to show God's love to others (including a cheating spouse) is to show forgiveness, which is God's ultimate gift to us.


You can forgive, but that doesn't mean you can't divorce, too.


----------



## TornNBroken

True.


----------



## TornNBroken

I just can't get over how remorseful she was the other night when she told me. Ive never seen her cry so hard. I can't imagine she doesn't truly want to be with me, based off of the things she said and how she said them. Can she be THAT manipulative, or just be trying to cover her ass?


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> She emailed me from her iphone...
> 
> "The Internet isn't working and I'd rather do this on a computer. Can you give me some time? I could email you tomorrow."
> 
> WTF. Now I'm paranoid.


Every single one of your questions was a very short answer, one or two words. Most of them were simple yes or no answers.

The reason she needs more time might be that all of the answers don't look good.

For example, did you use a condom? Well the answer is going to be "no." But she doesn't want to write simply, "no." She wants to write, "no, but what happened was, we had the condoms in his pants, but he wore the wrong pants, and he told me he had one on, but it was dark and I couldn't see, so he slipped it in and told me he had a condom, and when we finished I could feel it inside me and I knew he didn't, but it's not my fault."

Also, very unlikely that she just came clean out of the blue. Other man's wife may have been forcing the issue, and it was a pre-emptive confession.

The real thing that is throwing your wife is your statement that you WILL require a paternity test. As others have said, every single cheater lies about the affair. Even the ones who confess unprovoked. When they see the hurt in their spouse's eyes, they just naturally try to minimize it (and minimize their own pain, too, which is just fine with them). So, I don't believe it was just twice, and I do believe that there is some question in your wife's mind as to whose baby it is.


----------



## tom67

Sorry Torn to be blunt if the baby isn't yours she doesn't want to be a single mom/adultress plus like you said you make great money thus you could be the beta provider. Anyway get some rest if you can bro.


----------



## tom67

Expose to the families maybe they can get through to her.


----------



## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> I just can't get over how remorseful she was the other night when she told me. Ive never seen her cry so hard. I can't imagine she doesn't truly want to be with me, based off of the things she said and how she said them. Can she be THAT manipulative, or just be trying to cover her ass?


"One may smile and smile and be a villain."

Torn, the tears were real. The MOTIVATION for the tears is what is still in question. 

She can be sorry as hell...

... that she was caught.
... that she hurt you.
... that she was dumped by the OM.
... that a coworker was going to expose them.
... that she is pretty sure you are not going to look like the baby.
... that there is an ugly STD headed to a penis near you.

Get the idea?

You need to know what you are forgiving. Getting a timeline and the answers to your questions, on your time table, is only a first step, but it's a step.

Don't let her drag this out to tomorrow - Gen. Patton said, "Never let the enemy pick the time and place for battle." Right now your wife is still trying to deal with this on her terms.

And right now, she's your enemy, bro.


----------



## TornNBroken

I told her she can easily answer with her phone, or fix the internet.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> I just can't get over how remorseful she was the other night when she told me. Ive never seen her cry so hard. I can't imagine she doesn't truly want to be with me, based off of the *things she said and how she said them.* Can she be THAT manipulative, or just be trying to cover her ass?


She wants to be with you, but she wanted to have sex on the side, too.

She was crying for herself and the possibility of losing you.

She only came clean probably because other man or other man's wife was forcing the issue.

Maybe other man is single and wants your wife to leave you for him and has threatened to tell you about their affair if she doesn't leave you for him. Maybe other man's wife found out and your wife is afraid she MIGHT try to call you and figures it's better to preemptively tell you.

Cheaters are liars. She lied to you, at least by omission, when she faced you after with other man and not saying anything about it. Maybe she lied to you to give herself an excuse to see him, telling you she was going shopping when she really was going to have sex with him. MY POINT IS, cheaters are liars. You can't believe what they SAY. You can only believe what they "DO."

Yes, she SAID all the right things. Now you asked her to DO something, to ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS, and she is NOT doing it.


----------



## TDSC60

Definitely trying to cover her ass about something here. Probably figuring out the time of impregnation so she does not inadvertently give you a date of fvcking OM that coincides with a possible conception date. 

I would text her back and tell her that you will give her until tomorrow on all the questions but two - name of OM and where they met.

Also she is now in contact with him right NOW so they can get their stories straight. Trickle-truth - here we come. I would say take a quick drive by of your home. He might be there or she is not there and is with him. After all, it is hard to get a story straight over the phone. Also hard to email you from a computer if she is not near home and the computer.


----------



## Chaparral

TornNBroken said:


> If this is true (and I have no reason to think its not), then what is the point of reconciling? Seems better to just break it off and start fresh if I have to live a marriage where I can never TRULY trust . BUT if this kid IS mine, then I will never be free from her. If we divorced, I'd still be seeing her on a weekly basis most likely. God, that sounds awful. How freaking awkward would that be. And would I still see my in laws? Could I go to the park with my kid and my mother-in-law? Why not? But how weird.
> 
> Ugh. My mind is racing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE FOR HER TO ANSWER MY QUESTIO
> 
> 
> evolution said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't think love should be this way, nor am I defending myself either.I take responsibility for verbally, emotionally, and mentally hurting my wife. I have created these thoughts, feelings, and decisions (regarding divorce) for my wife to finally say "that's enough". As far as my "wife" making the decision to be unfaithful to me is unfair and hurtful in a totally different level. But, you are correct when you say I would be perfectly content with the way things are, since I would never think she would ever go anywhere nor think I was wrong. Taking the positive out of this negative situation, I'm glad it happened. I would of never realized all the mistakes nor accept the fact that I caused my "wife", and marriage to fail.
> 
> I spoke to my "wife" this morning and she is 200% sure she will file this Wednesday. After 9 years being together I can't even get closure nor answers to questions that have been on my mind. She acts as if I was her enemy and talks to me with little regard. I find this brick hard to swallow, as I have been accustomed to talking to her, relating, sharing thoughts, and being there for eachother. I continue to bring up the OM, and ask her is she continues to see, talk, or have feelings for him. I know the answers to those question, but I want to hear it from her mouth. But she says " it's not relevant".
> 
> Thanks for your opinion, I agree with what you said. If you love someone you shouldn't treat them, talk to them in a negative way, shape or form.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rand OmGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok....i have been trying to cope with this for about 3 weeks now...
> 
> Short background....I have been suspicous of a change in my wife's mood and temperment over the past couple of years.
> 
> I finally let it get to me and confronted her and after a short time she admitted she had sex with MY BEST FRIEND. I feel like my heart was ripped out...i truly feel broken.
> 
> It happened two years before i confronted her. She swears it was the only time and the only person and she had felt extremely bad about it.
> 
> We were having very difficult times back then...on the verge of divorce. I was not being attentive, affectionate and i was more focused on me. I realized this back then and started to make changes. But it seemed like it still wasn't good enough for her. Now I am starting to see that the better i got, the worse she felt.
> 
> I was betrayed by the two people i trusted the most. I confided in him about all of our problems and he used that oppurtunity to betray me.
> 
> We have young kids and have been together 13 years.
> 
> I made a decision that our kids shouldn't have to pay for her mistake.
> 
> I had to forgive her in order for us to move forward. But by forgiving her, i now have to carry the pain and pay for her mistake.
> 
> I have said what i had to say to him...luckily for him we weren't in person.
> 
> But how do i cope with the pain, the betrayal and lack of trust without throwing it in her face of having contempt towards her.
> 
> We discuss it and i tell her how i'm feeling, but i feel like i am going to explode. what can i do without leaving her and tearing our family apart?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BrockLanders said:
> 
> 
> 
> They're never going to give that to him. His PI can photograph their cars in the lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rdmu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'm sure sexually boob is being the dominant. She has made it very clear that is what she wants currently. I even have a recording, the one where she says she thinks she will "want it again some day." I'll have to look back at my notes, but I think the quote immediately after that is, "In the future, if you're not too busy dominating someone else, I'll be your girl then."
> 
> So, I'm sure that sexually he is the Dom, but I do think it is just about demeanor. Boob doesn't have a dungeon, and she 's not into whips and chains, she just wants someone to boss her around and tell her what to do. We all got way off track here with the BDSM stuff, probably because of the books I found on her Nook. Sure, she has been reading some pretty interesting books, though from what I can tell, none of it is any worse than 50 Shades. Millions have read that book, but it doesn't mean they are all going out doing those things.
> 
> Granted, I still don't know for sure, and I don't know about Clay, but this is looking more and more like a pretty typical A, and it's just about sex for both of them. Notice on the texts, when they end the convo, there was no, "I love u babe!, I love you too". At this point I really do believe they are just fvckbuddies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NS.
> 
> TNB
Click to expand...

There have been many here that have reconciled and by working on problems in the marriage ended up with a better marriage. This a coping with infidelity site. Not a divorce the adulterer site,


Its taking her so long because she is considering the ramifications when you read the answers.


----------



## HappyHubby

TornNBroken said:


> I just can't get over how remorseful she was the other night when she told me. Ive never seen her cry so hard. I can't imagine she doesn't truly want to be with me, based off of the things she said and how she said them. Can she be THAT manipulative, or just be trying to cover her ass?


Well by the way you described it, its almost guaranteed those tears were genuine.

Question is who and what were they for? Your pain and the sorrow she feels for what she did to YOU?

Or are they for herself and the pain she will surely suffer now that she has shamed herself?


Her ACTIONS over time will display which one of these is the case. 

IF she is truly remorseful about causing the pain she did to you, she will be forthcoming, non-dismissive of any request you make, she will continue to cry and beg and apologize and worship the ground you walk on.

I say give it time to play out and dont take her back to quickly.. my rough ballbark would be a few months (What do others think about this?) before even hinting to her that there's a chance at reconciling. See how she behaves during that time and proceed from there ...


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> She emailed me from her iphone...
> 
> "The Internet isn't working and I'd rather do this on a computer. Can you give me some time? I could email you tomorrow."
> 
> WTF. Now I'm paranoid.


Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean she's not trying to kill you. She's sh¡tting bricks right now.


----------



## walkonmars

Torn,
You have recieved top notch advice from almost all of the best, most experienced, savvy, and yes compassionate posters on this site. It's truly invaluable. Don't dismiss any of it and you won't regret any of your actions.

Take firm control of your life and your destiny. The path you choose may or may not include her. Don't make the assumption that it will or must.


----------



## jim123

TornNBroken said:


> I just can't get over how remorseful she was the other night when she told me. Ive never seen her cry so hard. I can't imagine she doesn't truly want to be with me, based off of the things she said and how she said them. Can she be THAT manipulative, or just be trying to cover her ass?


Her condition would cause a little of that. She is affraid to be on her own. That does not mean so will not do it again.

She went to him after she found out. She took what should have been a happy time for you and spent it with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

Torn if you can if you want reveal what state you are in others can help you on what to expect with d in your state if it comes to that.


----------



## tom67

She has to tell you who it is and any other questions you have.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> God, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm almost hoping the kid isn't mine now just so things will be simpler.
> 
> God damn this is so ****ed up!


And well you should.


----------



## TornNBroken

HappyHubby said:


> Well by the way you described it, its almost guaranteed those tears were genuine.
> 
> Question is who and what were they for? Your pain and the sorrow she feels for what she did to YOU?
> 
> Or are they for herself and the pain she will surely suffer now that she has shamed herself?
> 
> 
> Her ACTIONS over time will display which one of these is the case.
> 
> IF she is truly remorseful about causing the pain she did to you, she will be forthcoming, non-dismissive of any request you make, she will continue to cry and beg and apologize and worship the ground you walk on.
> 
> I say give it time to play out and dont take her back to quickly.. my rough ballbark would be a few months (What do others think about this?) before even hinting to her that there's a chance at reconciling. See how she behaves during that time and proceed from there ...


If I'm supposed to wait to even talk about R, then what am I supposed to do in the mean time? Tell everyone and make her stay at her parents? I cant imagine telling everyone at this point in time is helpful, and by everyone, I mean those outside immediate family. But how could I exist for months without friends and co-workers starting to ask whats going on? Where's your wife? Not to mention that we JUST (like in last Friday) started telling friends and acquaintances about the baby. I'm afraid that if there was some chance of saving our marriage, that I might lose that chance by publicly shaming her. Especially if that shame and embarrassment comes when she doesn't even know if I'm willing to try and work things out.


----------



## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> If I'm supposed to wait to even talk about R, then what am I supposed to do in the mean time? Tell everyone and make her stay at her parents? I cant imagine telling everyone at this point in time is helpful, and by everyone, I mean those outside immediate family. But how could I exist for months without friends and co-workers starting to ask whats going on? Where's your wife? Not to mention that we JUST (like in last Friday) started telling friends and acquaintances about the baby. I'm afraid that if there was some chance of saving our marriage, that I might lose that chance by publicly shaming her. Especially if that shame and embarrassment comes when she doesn't even know if I'm willing to try and work things out.


YES you kick her out.
YES you tell everyone.
YES you expose the OM.

None of this is your fault! None. Quit blaming yourself. Stop falling on the sword for her. She did this of her own free will. Again and again (and again and again and again, I'm afraid you will soon learn). Conscious decision each time she let the other man enter her. Conscious decision to betray you and your love for her. 

STOP TRYING TO RESCUE HER. This one is up to her.

This is called a CONSEQUENCE. She needs it to blow up her affair fog.

She shouldn't already know you are willing to work things out. If you tip your hand now you LOSE.

My friend, how can you even SAY you want to work things out? You haven't even seen the full iceberg, and it's a whopper.


----------



## walkonmars

Keep your health up. Have faith in yourself. See your dr soon for a checkup and let him you you are stressed & why.

OU have N O T H I N G to be ashamed of. Hold your head high, shoulders back, stiffen your spine. You are the faithful husbsnd. But don't be meek. It's not time for meekness.


----------



## Chaparral

Sorry about the huge post, android sucks.

I think you immediate worry is who the other man really is. I think she is protecting someone you know. If not they will give a name. Whoever it is, she is more interested in protecting him than you. Is she close to any men in your church?


----------



## TornNBroken

InlandTXMM said:


> YES you kick her out.
> YES you tell everyone.
> YES you expose the OM.
> 
> This is called a CONSEQUENCE. She needs it to blow up her affair fog.


If I ruin her life, how does that move us toward R?...if thats even an option.

I get what your saying about consequences, but don't you see how if I went and told EVERYONE tomorrow, I would R U I N her life. She would probably lose almost all of her friends, her family would probably hate her (they love me), and then what? I feel like at that point there is ZERO chance of R. No?







I know, I know, she's the one that has ruined everything...


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> I just can't get over how remorseful she was the other night when she told me. Ive never seen her cry so hard. I can't imagine she doesn't truly want to be with me, based off of the things she said and how she said them. Can she be THAT manipulative, or just be trying to cover her ass?


_"Frailty, thy name is Woman"_ Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, via Billy Shakespeare


----------



## tom67

InlandTXMM said:


> YES you kick her out.
> YES you tell everyone.
> YES you expose the OM.
> 
> This is called a CONSEQUENCE. She needs it to blow up her affair fog.
> 
> She shouldn't already know you are willing to work things out. If you tip your hand now you LOSE.
> 
> My friend, how can you even SAY you want to work things out? You haven't even seen the full iceberg, and it's a whopper.


You are in shock but the above is what you have to do!:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Chaparral

TornNBroken said:


> If I'm supposed to wait to even talk about R, then what am I supposed to do in the mean time? Tell everyone and make her stay at her parents? I cant imagine telling everyone at this point in time is helpful, and by everyone, I mean those outside immediate family. But how could I exist for months without friends and co-workers starting to ask whats going on? Where's your wife? Not to mention that we JUST (like in last Friday) started telling friends and acquaintances about the baby. I'm afraid that if there was some chance of saving our marriage, that I might lose that chance by publicly shaming her. Especially if that shame and embarrassment comes when she doesn't even know if I'm willing to try and work things out.


Exposure is used to break up affairs. Tell people who can support you. Tell her parents. Tell anyone you like, but if the affair is over, wholesale exposure is not necessary.


----------



## walkonmars

TornNBroken said:


> If I ruin her life, how does that move us toward R?...if thats even an option.
> 
> I get what your saying about consequences, but don't you see how if I went and told EVERYONE tomorrow, I would R U I N her life. She would probably lose almost all of her friends, her family would probably hate her (they love me), and then what? I feel like at that point there is ZERO chance of R. No?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know, I know, she's the one that has ruined everything...


The advice is counterintuitive but effective. Neither you or her will lose real friends. Real friends will offer insight. Dismiss all others. And dismiss the ones that counsel rugsweeping. 

If she all in, she will understand your motivation. Not revenge, consequences.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> If I'm supposed to wait to even talk about R, then what am I supposed to do in the mean time? Tell everyone and make her stay at her parents? I cant imagine telling everyone at this point in time is helpful, and by everyone, I mean those outside immediate family. But how could I exist for months without friends and co-workers starting to ask whats going on? Where's your wife? Not to mention that we JUST (like in last Friday) started telling friends and acquaintances about the baby. I'm afraid that if there was some chance of saving our marriage, that I might lose that chance by publicly shaming her. Especially if that shame and embarrassment comes when she doesn't even know if I'm willing to try and work things out.


You are in maybe the toughest of all situations.

Stay living together in the same house.

For the time being, don't tell anyone else EXCEPT other man's wife.

Wait until you get the answers to your questions. Then try to verify the truthfulness.

Start investigating on your own now. Look at your cell phone bill to see if there are a lot of calls or texts to any number or numbers. When she comes home, get her passwords and go through her emails.

Buy a couple of voice-activated recorders and some heavy-duty velcro. Place one in her car and another in the house where she is likely to talk on the phone when you are not around. Within a week or so, you should have your answer as to what is going on with the other man. She either will talk to him or you will hear her discussing it with one of her friends. There is no downside to this. Either you hear nothing and feel better about your wife's truthfulness, or you find out she's been lying to you, thus saving you seven months of additional pain.

Put a keylogger on the computer if you can. Put gps in her car.

You need answers to your questions. The most important one is, did other man have sex with her at a time where he could be he father of the baby?


----------



## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> If I ruin her life, how does that move us toward R?...if thats even an option.
> 
> I get what your saying about consequences, but don't you see how if I went and told EVERYONE tomorrow, I would R U I N her life. She would probably lose almost all of her friends, her family would probably hate her (they love me), and then what? I feel like at that point there is ZERO chance of R. No?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know, I know, she's the one that has ruined everything...



You say you know but you don't believe that.

Christians men are the biggest martyrs around. STOP IT. She is not a victim. She is the betrayer. Of her own free will. Again and again.

Let me put it this way:

Who allowed the OM to fvck her over and over (and over and over and over, you are about to learn)?
Who allowed the OM to be inside her - knowing she was pregnant?
Who did she prioritize over her husband? For months?
Who got the fidelity and the truth - you or the OM?

Now:

Who is responsible for protecting whom? Who is the victim here?

If you want to rescue someone in distress, my brother, look in the mirror for your next rescue!


----------



## InlandTXMM

Another common Christian trait, in my experience, is the need to appear perfect and holy to the outside world. This is a fraud, but it's common nonetheless.

Ask yourself Torn, are you afraid of hurting your wife, or are you afraid that your Christian marriage will now appear sullied and impure?

You and I both know when Christians form their firing squad, they line up in a circle.


----------



## Machiavelli

Torn, everybody is giving you the straight scoop.

Right now, you don't do anything, because you don't have enough info. Let your WW finish concocting her answers to your questions and then you'll have something to work with. 

If you don't get every one of those answers when she walks through the door, that means you won't be getting them. Load her crap in a couple of trash bags and deliver her to her parents.

If she gives you the answers, then you've got to put them through the refiner's fire and burn off the BS. Post her answers and the guys will help.

I don't think she will be honest here, to be blunt. The reason is that she is almost assuredly a serial adulteress, based on what you have told us about your relationship. She has been addicted to the PEA rush since before you were married. That would be phenethylamine, dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, adrenaline, etc that combine to create a crack-like high in a woman's mind when she gets it on with a new guy. They more they do it, the lesser the rush, so they're no different than any other addict. Were you your wife's first? Was she your first?

I hope I'm 180° wrong about that, but those are the odds.

Now, the big things you need to do, aside from your investigation and exposure, are to work on you. This is the same no matter what happens about R or D or paternity. Got that?

So you need to make some statements tomorrow:
1. Change your hair - you don't have to like it or keep it, but change it radically.
2. Get a cool ride. If you've already got one, get a chopper. 
3. Upgrade your wardrobe. Start wearing sports coats and suits even when it's a little overdressed. Dress like you're making 3X your salary in the most glamorous profession you can think of.
4. Change your cologne.

Do all that in the next 48, without saying a word to your wife about any of it. I promise you, she will get concerned and that's good.

How often do women hit on you for sex or come sit in your lap or mash their boobs against your back, accidentally? (this is a serious question)


----------



## Wanting1

I want to warn you that it is quite possible she is not as far along as she may think. OB's base the date of conception from the last period, not when ovulation occurs. So she may be 2 weeks off on her conception date. So add 2 weeks to the date of conception the doctor's office gave her and see if that put's OM's sperm in play according to the timeline you currently have. (Frankly, his sperm has probably been in play much longer. She may have just convinced herself she wasn't with him around that time. She has a vested interest in deluding herself on this point.)

Because I track my ovulation, I knew my exact date of conception with my pregnancies. No amount of arguing about it would make them change the dates .... Until the ultrasounds were done and then the adjustment was made based on the baby's development. And what did they adjust it by? 2 weeks...exactly when I was ovulating. 

So beware the magic math of the OB/GYN.


----------



## TornNBroken

We were eachother's firsts, yes. 

I think all the women I know, know I'm married...so not a lot of solicitations. I don't really know what that matters though...I'm definitely not looking for revenge sex.


----------



## InlandTXMM

No but as he will explain, if you are not getting hit on, you are not triggering enough sexual reaction in females in general. This helps explain why your wife strayed.


----------



## Thoreau

It matters. There is a method to our madness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

InlandTXMM said:


> No but as he will explain, if you are not getting hit on, you are not triggering enough sexual reaction in females in general. This helps explain why your wife strayed.


If women aren't hitting on you, you lose your sex rank. It all has to do with their limbic brain. I am surprised though with the money you make that should quasi help that anyway others will explain better.


----------



## TornNBroken

So if I don't put out a "**** me" vibe to other women, I wasn't "man enough" for my wife? I have plenty of female friends and I don't think I'd have a problem getting another women if we split up. I'm 29, 6'3", in good shape, have a good job and a great sense of humor.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> We were eachother's firsts, yes.


Well, that really sux, what she's done. 



TornNBroken said:


> I think all the women I know, know I'm married...so not a lot of solicitations. I don't really know what that matters though...I'm definitely not looking for revenge sex.


Well, if you were hot enough, they'd be coming around. Since they're not hitting on you or giving you the eye, that has devalued your sexual market value in the eyes of your wife. Women are herd animals when it comes to attraction and your wife really needs to see that other women want you for her to be happy with you. It sounds weird, but if she has the idea that you can replace her with 3 new girls in five minutes if she steps out of line, she probably won't be stepping out of line. Remember that frailty bit?

How tall are you and what do you weigh? What's your current workout plan?


----------



## tom67

TornNBroken said:


> So if I don't put out a "**** me" vibe to other women, I wasn't "man enough" for my wife? I have plenty of female friends and I don't think I'd have a problem getting another women if we split up. I'm 29, 6'3", in good shape, have a good job and a great sense of humor.


Great now you have to alpha up and show her you can move on without her. She will believe it or not respect that. A phrase here you need to learn is you have to be willing to end the m in order to save it.


----------



## jim123

Doing nothing is the worst thing you can do. Do you think she was think she did it of love for you, She was with someone else while you where trying to start a family.

These things do not just go away. She wentt to him after finding out. Why did she do that.


----------



## TornNBroken

Machiavelli said:


> Well, that really sux, what she's done.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if you were hot enough, they'd be coming around. Since they're not hitting on you or giving you the eye, that has devalued your sexual market value in the eyes of your wife. Women are herd animals when it comes to attraction and your wife really needs to see that other women want you for her to be happy with you. It sounds weird, but if she has the idea that you can replace her with 3 new girls in five minutes if she steps out of line, she probably won't be stepping out of line. Remember that frailty bit?
> 
> How tall are you and what do you weigh? What's your current workout plan?


My wife already gets bothered that most of my friends (work ones at least) are good looking women my age. Don't think that was the problem. Like I said, I'm tall (6'3" and 210, low body fat, good looking, in shape, played college sports, was the valedictorian of my grad school, make 6 figures, and I'm funny and handy. WTF more is there? Should I be flirting more with other women? I've never done that outta respect for my wife.


----------



## TornNBroken

Just got this...

"I know your mind must be wandering all over the place right now. I want to be completely honest with you and answer all your questions because you deserve to know the truth but 1)I'd rather answer you in person and 2) the way I see it is you are very hurt, upset and disgusted with me right now that anything I do tell you is just going to add to your pain and anger. The important thing is I'm never going to see this guy again. It's over. Even if you leave me, I would never contact him again. I'm coming from a spot where I'm scared ****less to lose you and a lot of those questions do not work towards helping us and moving forward but will just add to the multiple reasons you should leave me. And you basically said if I'm not honest, we are done and so I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't."


----------



## tom67

Watch how many of those women at work after you tell your story start talking to you and wanting to "console you" it will happen.


----------



## tom67

TornNBroken said:


> Just got this...
> 
> "I know your mind must be wandering all over the place right now. I want to be completely honest with you and answer all your questions because you deserve to know the truth but 1)I'd rather answer you in person and 2) the way I see it is you are very hurt, upset and disgusted with me right now that anything I do tell you is just going to add to your pain and anger. The important thing is I'm never going to see this guy again. It's over. Even if you leave me, I would never contact him again. I'm coming from a spot where I'm scared ****less to lose you and a lot of those questions do not work towards helping us and moving forward but will just add to the multiple reasons you should leave me. And you basically said if I'm not honest, we are done and so I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't."


Go home and pack her sh!t on friday. Expose to her parents-sigh. She is protecting the om tell her parents that also.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> Is this true? Is there ANYONE here that didn't find out more after an initial confession?.....anyone who got the whole story upfront?
> 
> There's gotta be some spouse who had one messed up night, realized they F-ed up and apologized...right? No trickle-truth.


I've been married for 20 years. Never in my 20 years have I ever caught my wife in a lie. That is not a joke or an exaggeration. Not once. We've had problems in our relationship but the one thing I always believed is that I could trust her without a doubt. 

A few weeks ago I found a weird email address on my wife's computer. I had left my computer at work and was using hers to check my email after she went to bed. Something I never do. I never saw that address before but I recognized it as my wife's because it was similar to her normal email address except she turned it into something very suggestive. I broke into it. I then found emails and dating site information. I then found and broke into her dating site accounts. I then found her secret facebook account. 

She was cheating on me. We had separated at one point several years back but she had started these accounts before we separated and continued them for 6 months after we reconciled. I confronted her. I simply asked her questions that I already knew the answers to. She lied over and over. Lied, admitted, minimized, blamed ... repeat ... the entire way. This is a fundamentalist christian woman who I would have bet my life on never breaking my trust.


----------



## walkonmars

TornNBroken said:


> Just got this...
> 
> "I know your mind must be wandering all over the place right now. I want to be completely honest with you and answer all your questions because you deserve to know the truth but 1)I'd rather answer you in person and 2) the way I see it is you are very hurt, upset and disgusted with me right now that anything I do tell you is just going to add to your pain and anger. The important thing is I'm never going to see this guy again. It's over. Even if you leave me, I would never contact him again. I'm coming from a spot where I'm scared ****less to lose you and a lot of those questions do not work towards helping us and moving forward but will just add to the multiple reasons you should leave me. And you basically said if I'm not honest, we are done and so I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't."


Yep, thought so. There's more. A lot more. Insist n written answers that you can reference later when the lies trickle out as we all predicted. 

She wants to talk so she can have a better chance at sandbagging and gaslighting you. Don't accept that. Not at all. 

Tell her you'll go over the answers with her, but she must write them out first. 

P.s. She's gonna lie. It's a normal reaction.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> Just got this...
> 
> "I know your mind must be wandering all over the place right now. I want to be completely honest with you and answer all your questions because you deserve to know the truth but 1)*I'd rather answer you in person* and 2) the way I see it is you are very hurt, upset and disgusted with me right now that anything I do tell you is just going to add to your pain and anger. *The important thing is I'm never going to see this guy again. It's over. Even if you leave me, I would never contact him again.* I'm coming from a spot where I'm scared ****less to lose you and a lot of those questions do not work towards helping us and moving forward but will just add to the multiple reasons you should leave me. And you basically said if I'm not honest, we are done and so I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't."


She was able to manipulate you so well the last time, that she figures her chances are much better in person. She can use all the same tactics she used the last time.

You do realize that she has been talking to the other man while you have been waiting for your answers these past few hours. She just ended it now. After she read your question. The sticking point for her was that he doesn't want to be a father right now. Said her tearful goodbyes, told him how much he means to her, and always will, asked him if he won't reconsider raising the child together, he said, "no," I would prefer you get the abortion, I'm not ready to be a father yet.

Sorry, I'm just speculating about him not wanting to be a father yet.

I am NOT speculating that she just talked to him these past few hours while you were waiting. She was ending it with him, tearful goodbye, you'll always be in my heart, if my marriage doesn't work out maybe some day we can be together, all of that type of stuff.

Your wife honestly does feel very guilty for having hurt you. Try to get her over to talk to her in person as fast as possible so you can talk to her while she's still feeling guilty.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> So if I don't put out a "**** me" vibe to other women, I wasn't "man enough" for my wife? I have plenty of female friends and I don't think I'd have a problem getting another women if we split up. I'm 29, 6'3", in good shape, have a good job and a great sense of humor.


Excellent age, excellent height. Good on the $$. If you look good enough, you automatically have a great sense of humor (they'll laugh at anything you say to show attraction).

Women get turned on when they see other women crossing and uncrossing their legs around their husbands. As Tom pointed out, women do not sexually respond to a man by reason (prefrontal cortex) but via the autonomous limbic system. Who they respond to depends very much on her menstrual cycle. Muscular upper bodies and facial scars (fighter indicators) and guys with "badboy" traits get the nod when she's ovulating. That's why David, the ultimate alpha, had all those wives (30+). When she's not ovulating, she's more attracted to the softer wimpier DiCaprios of the world. Bathsheba wanted to get nailed by David and have Uriah raise the kid as the cuckold "daddy." This is what your wife may have planned for you. It's built into her programming to get impregnated by the cøckiest stud on the block and then stick a nice, provider drone with raising the kid and providing for her. He's nice and safe. No butterflies there, but she can catch those at the same place she's catching wild oats.

In the meantime, you've probably been violating The Sixteen Commandments. Quit that.

Take the SMV test while you're over at that sight.

Now, the American church, especially most of the Protestant side is very female friendly. They teach the man causes the problems in the relationship and women are sugar and spice and spiritual and all everything. Especially that women are more moral than men and love deeper than men. Well, you just got your first deprogramming lesson in that dept. Don't forget it. When you read those links, you may think that information only applies to barfly floozies. As we see from you wife's behavior, they apply just as well to sweet little Christian wives. Don't let Christians try to railroad you into taking all this lying down. Because plenty of them will, as they tell you had to be your fault that your wife became so corrupted and now it's your job to save her. That's a load of σκύβαλα, to use the biblical term.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> Just got this...
> 
> "I know your mind must be wandering all over the place right now. I want to be completely honest with you and answer all your questions because you deserve to know the truth but 1)I'd rather answer you in person and 2) the way I see it is you are very hurt, upset and disgusted with me right now that anything I do tell you is just going to add to your pain and anger. The important thing is I'm never going to see this guy again. It's over. Even if you leave me, I would never contact him again. I'm coming from a spot where I'm scared ****less to lose you and a lot of those questions do not work towards helping us and moving forward but will just add to the multiple reasons you should leave me. And you basically said if I'm not honest, we are done and so I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't."


You will need the whole truth. You need to know the extent of the deception. It will be very painful and she will try to get away with not telling you everything. In order to rebuild trust, you have to know what you are working with. You have to be able to accept and forgive (even though you will never forget) everything she has done. You and your relationship with your wife deserve nothing less. 

The worst thing that can happen is that she swears up and down it is the entire truth ... and you learn to trust her again ... and then 3, 6 months, a year or two or ten from now you find out new information and you get to relive the whole thing again. 

This message should confirm that you cannot entirely believe her when she says that is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


----------



## tom67

Don't forget DNA. Tell her that will among other things be required. You have to do it no matter what.


----------



## TornNBroken

Well...

"What is his name? P**** (she didn't give a last name)
Is he married? Have a girlfriend? No, he just broke up a few months ago?
How did you meet him? Massage Envy
When did you start a relationship? Mid feb
Was there other intimacy before you slept with him? I don't really know what you mean exactly, but no
When is the last time you talked/texted/emailed/had any communication with him? Weds morning
Have you told him its over?yes
How many times did you sleep with him? 4 (it was 2 on Tuesday night)
What were the dates? I don't know. The first was sometime mid-late feb and the last was Tuesday night.
Did he know you were married? Yes
Did he know you were pregnant? Yes
Have you cheated with anyone else since we've been married? That means anything from kissing to sex. *Yes
*Did he use a condom? Yes x3 and no x1
Did he cum inside of you? Yes
Is there ANY, and I mean ANY, chance that its his baby? We ARE going to have a paternity test done no matter what, so you should honest. I guess anything is possible but considering I know when I ovulated and it was well past that time and he wore a condom and pulled out, I'd be shocked.
Have you been tested for STDs? If not, go do it. Yes


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> So here's my situation,
> 
> My wife of nearly six years just told me that she has been cheating on my for the last two months, starting in late February. March 4th we found out she was 5 weeks pregnant (so definitely mine......I think???). She said its some guy I don't know and that they slept together twice, once before and once after we found out about the baby. I'm SO freaking upset, and hurt, and confused, and sick to my stomach. I've been doing nothing but reading about infidelity online since I found out. I had to leave the house, cause I just can't look at my wife. * I've been staying at a hotel *and don't know what to do from here.


Go back home tonight and talk to your wife about what happened. When she starts to cry, just keep on as if she was sitting there calmly. She will cry to buy time, to change the subject, to think up a better answer than the truth. Don't fall for it.

An innocent person, telling the truth, answers questions directly. "Did you just call other man now, tonight, after you got my text?" "NO, I did not!"

A guilty person, lying, does not answer directly, and sometimes doesn't even answer the question you asked. "Did you just call other man now, tonight, after you got my text?" "I threw away his number, how could I?" or "I don't even have internet access" or "other man works at night, how could I?"


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Will_Kane said:


> She was able to manipulate you so well the last time, that she figures her chances are much better in person. She can use all the same tactics she used the last time.
> 
> You do realize that she has been talking to the other man while you have been waiting for your answers these past few hours. She just ended it now. After she read your question. ...
> 
> Your wife honestly does feel very guilty for having hurt you. Try to get her over to talk to her in person as fast as possible so you can talk to her while she's still feeling guilty.


btw ... word of advice ... listen to Will ... he is more spot on than most.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> My wife already gets bothered that most of my friends (work ones at least) are good looking women my age. Don't think that was the problem. Like I said, I'm tall (6'3" and 210, low body fat, good looking, in shape, played college sports, was the valedictorian of my grad school, make 6 figures, and I'm funny and handy. WTF more is there? Should I be flirting more with other women? I've never done that outta respect for my wife.


And how's that working out for you?

Dr Phil jokes aside, you should be flirting very lightly and basically just acting like the cøck of the walk where your wife can see it. Use a light touch, but do it. It does no good if your wife isn't around to see it. 

Every time some female coworker came onto me, I used to tell my wife. I didn't do it to up my sex rank, I did it so I would be less tempted to ever respond to some of that stuff, some of which was really over the top. In retrospect, this worked really well, since it happened a lot. 

This is your physique goal, how do you stack up?


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> Well...
> 
> "What is his name? P**** (she didn't give a last name)
> Is he married? Have a girlfriend? No, he just broke up a few months ago?
> How did you meet him? Massage Envy
> When did you start a relationship? Mid feb
> Was there other intimacy before you slept with him? I don't really know what you mean exactly, but no
> When is the last time you talked/texted/emailed/had any communication with him? Weds morning
> Have you told him its over?yes
> How many times did you sleep with him? 4 (it was 2 on Tuesday night)
> What were the dates? I don't know. The first was sometime mid-late feb and the last was Tuesday night.
> Did he know you were married? Yes
> Did he know you were pregnant? Yes
> Have you cheated with anyone else since we've been married? That means anything from kissing to sex. *Yes
> *Did he use a condom? Yes x3 and no x1
> Did he cum inside of you? Yes
> Is there ANY, and I mean ANY, chance that its his baby? We ARE going to have a paternity test done no matter what, so you should honest. I guess anything is possible but considering I know when I ovulated and it was well past that time and he wore a condom and pulled out, I'd be shocked.
> Have you been tested for STDs? If not, go do it. Yes


Sorry Torn. This is more truth. Should be obvious to you there is even more truth to be told.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> Well...
> 
> "What is his name? P**** *(she didn't give a last name)*
> Is he married? Have a girlfriend? *No*, he just broke up a few months ago?
> How did you meet him? Massage Envy
> When did you start a relationship? *Mid feb*
> Was there other intimacy before you slept with him? I don't really know what you mean exactly, but no
> When is the last time you talked/texted/emailed/had any communication with him? *Weds morning*
> Have you told him its over?yes
> How many times did you sleep with him? *4 (it was 2 on Tuesday night)*
> What were the dates? *I don't know*. *The first was sometime mid-late feb *and the last was Tuesday night.
> Did he know you were married? Yes
> Did he know you were pregnant? Yes
> Have you cheated with anyone else since we've been married? That means anything from kissing to sex. *Yes
> *Did he use a condom? *Yes x3 and no x1*
> Did he cum inside of you? Yes
> Is there ANY, and I mean ANY, chance that its his baby? We ARE going to have a paternity test done no matter what, so you should honest. *I guess anything is possible *but considering I know when I ovulated and it was well past that time and he wore a condom and pulled out, I'd be shocked.
> Have you been tested for STDs? If not, go do it. *Yes*


I put the lies in blue for you.

She knows the dates she slept with him, she knows his last name, she knows it's just as possible he is the father as you. It started before mid-Feb, they never used a condom. It was more than four times.


----------



## tom67

Will_Kane said:


> I put the lies in blue for you.
> 
> She knows the dates she slept with him, she knows his last name, she knows it's just as possible he is the father as you. It started before mid-Feb, they never used a condom. It was more than four times.


You have to question EVERYTHING she says right now sorry.


----------



## TornNBroken

tom67 said:


> You have to question EVERYTHING she says right now sorry.


I am.


----------



## Machiavelli

Torn, she's a serial adulteress. I saw the bold "Yes." 

Sorry about that. There are probably many men. Many men.

Remember she will minimize the number. Even if she were to give you the number she believes is the real one, it will be half of the true number. They even lie to themselves about the depths they have sunk to.

How long until you see her?


----------



## TornNBroken

Machiavelli said:


> How long until you see her?


I don't know if I can see her right now. I just don't know how I can face her. The worse things get, the more depressed I get thinking about a kid that might have to be in the middle of this.


----------



## TornNBroken

I just want to wake up from the last 3 days...


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> I don't know if I can see her right now. I just don't know how I can face her. The worse things get, the more depressed I get thinking about a kid that might have to be in the middle of this.


It's always the kids who pay, but it's worth it for the butterflies and sex high. Which brings to why they never use rubbers. Semen contains mood elevating chemistry, so catching it is half the fun.


----------



## TornNBroken

She's a marathon runner, and I can't help but think what she really did during those 4 hour training runs.


----------



## tom67

TornNBroken said:


> I don't know if I can see her right now. I just don't know how I can face her. The worse things get, the more depressed I get thinking about a kid that might have to be in the middle of this.


God Torn life is just too short for this bs. Go see a lawyer for a consult on fri and move on.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> I am.


Start getting the truth while she still hasn't perfected her lies. Start right now.

Text her back that you don't believe she doesn't know the dates. Tell her you remember the exact date the first time you did it years ago, she certainly can come up with the exact dates she did it with this guy less than two months ago. Dates and times. (PS - it wasn't two months ago, it probably was much longer ago, maybe around October-November, but she remembers the dates nonetheless.)

If possible, go home and do this face to face. Tonight. Take off from work tomorrow. You need to be able to read her body language when she is lying to you. When she's lying she'll be fidgeting around, playing with her hair, grooming herself. You can see her eye contact with you or lack of it, hear the tone of her voice, see how long she hesitates to answer.

Tonight is the time to do it, the longer you wait, the better the lies she will be able to come up with.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> I don't know if I can see her right now. I just don't know how I can face her. The worse things get, the more depressed I get thinking about a kid that might have to be in the middle of this.


Do not be gaslighted. She's already confessed to being a serial. This kid may be neither OM's nor yours. Deliver her up to her parents.


----------



## TornNBroken

tom67 said:


> God Torn life is just too short for this bs. Go see a lawyer for a consult on fri and move on.


I think I would if not for this little guy or gal that keeps breaking my heart whenever I think about him/her.

F***!


----------



## jim123

How could it be possible if the A started mid Feb and she was five weeks on March 5th. This has been going on a lot longer and far more than 4.

You know also know more about a least one more A.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> She's a marathon runner, and I can't help but think what she really did during those 4 hour training runs.


Yeah. It comes with the territory. You see it all the time. And when they all go to meets and races.

I agree it's time to see an attorney ASAP. What state?


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> Yeah. It comes with the territory. You see it all the time. And when they all go to meets and races.
> 
> I agree it's time to see an attorney ASAP. What state?


Another sigh I thought of Suzy Favor-Hamilton. You have been married 6 years, I hope you do not live in california.


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> Do not be gaslighted. She's already confessed to being a serial. This kid may be neither OM's nor yours. Deliver her up to her parents.


Do this in the morning.


----------



## Machiavelli

When is she showing up? She's a very accomplished liar. If you've got time read through this at Forbes: Ten Ways to Tell if She's Lying.


----------



## TornNBroken

"P**** what? P**** ********.
When you were gone in Florida, we didn't have sex, but I'd sleep in the same bed as **** and we went dancing a few times and made out. Then he left and I had a one night stand with one of his friends (J**** ****). He wore a condom. Then a week later I went to a party at L**** bf house and N*** ****** showed up. I was asleep passed out drunk on the couch and he carried me into a room and locked the door and I told him no multiple times and was on my period and I felt like he took advantage of me, but I also felt like a dirty ***** from the week before so felt like it didn't matter. I also kissed a guy on NYE 2011-12 that I didn't even know.

It took me 2 years to forgive myself for what I did in Florida. I hated myself and even felt like I pushed you away in some ways because I knew I didn't deserve you. I was depressed and lonely. I promised myself I'd never do it again. So then when I did it again with P****, I realized i needed help. i couldn't keep doing this. I had to come clean to you. I'm tired of lying to you. You deserve more than this. I dont want to keep anything from you. You are my best friend, my favorite person in the world, my other half and I'm pleading for your forgiveness."

FYI, when I was in school in FL, I had to leave for some rotations across the country.


----------



## TornNBroken

Machiavelli said:


> When is she showing up? She's a very accomplished liar. If you've got time read through this at Forbes: Ten Ways to Tell if She's Lying.


Maybe you missed it, but I'm staying at a hotel at the moment. She's at our house, with our dogs.


----------



## bryanp

For God's sake she is a serial cheater and has been cheating on you and has been putting your health at risk for STD's. She has been playing you for a fool. You deserve so much better. Now she is pregnant and you are not sure if it is your child and she has admitted that there has been previous cheating with others. Please don't let her wreck the rest of your life. She is really despicable.
You deserve better.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> I don't know if I can see her right now. I just don't know how I can face her. The worse things get, the more depressed I get thinking about a kid that might have to be in the middle of this.


Dragging this out makes it no less painful, as a matter of fact it makes it a lot worse. However bad you feel tonight, you are not going to feel any better about it tomorrow or the next day.

This is hanging over your head. You will start to feel much better when you get this talk you need to have with her over with and get some answers.

When you question her, don't interrupt her. Ask your question and let her answer. When she's done, wait at least five seconds before asking another question. If she starts talking before you get the next question out, then let her talk. Do not accept answers that don't make sense, or that are out of what you would consider "normal" GIVEN THE SITUATION. Example: Is it normal not to remember the exact dates you had sex with the other man in the past two months? No, if you didn't remember the exact dates, it would be easy enough to figure out by looking at a calendar and saying, well, it was the week after Valentine's Day on a Wednesday.

The guilt will be wearing on her. Take advantage of it.

The longer you wait, the better her lies get.

The simple answer "yes" with no explanation to the question about other sex partners is not a good sign. If it were a small number, the "yes" would have been followed with an explanation, like the "possibility of other man being dad" answer. By the way, you have to give her credit, she is pretty good with making the words sound nice while not answering a damn thing - "I guess anything is possible" - heck, she could know for a fact that the other man was the father and this statement "I guess anything is possible" still would not be a lie.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> Maybe you missed it, but I'm staying at a hotel at the moment. She's at our house, with our dogs.


Forgot about that. Are you in a "fault" state?


----------



## TornNBroken

I'm in Colorado.


----------



## tom67

Colorado Divorce Laws - Divorce Source


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> Maybe you missed it, but I'm staying at a hotel at the moment. She's at our house, with our dogs.


Go home and confront. You can go back to the hotel in the morning.


----------



## tom67

Colorado Divorce Facts - Divorce Source


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> FYI, when I was in school in FL, I had to leave for some rotations across the country.


Keep working on her and the number will grow. Are you still in or are you a civilian now?


----------



## TornNBroken

What the hell am I supposed to say? What else do I need to know from her?


----------



## walkonmars

So, unless I misunderstood your earlier posts, she told you about cheating on Monday or tuesday (3 days ago) yet she had sex with him twice, one unprotected on Tuesday - either the day after she told you or the same day?

Then she spoke to him again yesterday?

Looks like she fell hard for this dude. He is very likely married and dropped your wife - denied paternity. After you nail down more specifics you can (if you have any hope of reconcilling) threaten a polygraph. 

Think of it as completely discovering and removing a malignancy from your marriage. If you don't plan on reconcilling, let it go and move on. 

It's not something you signed up for but.... Whatcha gonna do? Face it headon your mettle is being put to the test. It's not the worst thing that could have happened in your life. Trite, I know, but true nonetheless.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Machiavelli said:


> Yeah. It comes with the territory. You see it all the time. And when they all go to meets and races.
> 
> I agree it's time to see an attorney ASAP. What state?


Yeah that is true. I've had a little insight from one group of friends who LIVE that lifestyle ... triathlons, marathons to full ironmans. It's all they talk about. There is a lot of bonding, support, adrenaline and testosterone ... and it often translates into hot steamy indiscretions.


----------



## the guy

When are you going to stop letting this chick define you?

Once you define your self, you may find that your not breaking any hearts but someone else is, but you can stand up dust your self off and make a stand in their lives that will mean more then the person that betrayed you and them.

Its not what knocks us down that counts its how we get up that matters.


Stop thinking you can control someone so they can be better, be better so you can influence them.

what the phuck makes you think this all about you when your old lady makes bad choices....you can't control that sh1t or the influences that will have...but you can define your self as a good person and screw the rest of them.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> What the hell am I supposed to say? What else do I need to know from her?


It's up to you. I would know enough at this point to say "nice knowing ya!" You know the number is only going to go up. It's the nature of the beast. The kid's probably not yours, but it might be. Next, she'll be balking over the paternity test. Lawyer up.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Will_Kane said:


> Go home and confront. You can go back to the hotel in the morning.


:iagree:

You notice how much truth is coming out now? Now is the time.


----------



## Machiavelli

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> :iagree:
> 
> You notice how much truth is coming out now? Now is the time.


A fine idea, but read through that interrogation article first. Good luck. Peace out.


----------



## TornNBroken

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> :iagree:
> 
> You notice how much truth is coming out now? Now is the time.


Why do I need to know more? If there are 5 more guys, does that change anything? What can she tell me that would change anything at this point? 

I need to get that early paternity test and go from there.

I feel like seeing her now can only need to bad things.


----------



## the guy

Poor me my old lady is screwing around......


How about poor old lady...I'm done sharing my wife!!!!!

Let her go, see if she can keep up?

Sir you need to laugh and smile and wish your chick the best cuz that kind of confidence will mess with her big time.

A tactic that just might get her to think twice....second guess her choices.. once she sees what she is *about* to lose.

Just letting her go just might save this relationship.

But then again "just letting her go" just might save you??????


----------



## TornNBroken

Looking back, my gut had bad feelings about all the guys she mentioned from a few years ago. I was too trusting...


----------



## Nicola12

If you are worried about the child: if it is indeed your child, I am sure that you would be able to provide a much better stable and safe environment/place to go to (even if part-time) on your own than an environment where you are together with your wife and always wondering, checking, on edge and not feeling valued. Kids thrive on dependability and she doesn't sound so dependable to me...


----------



## tom67

the guy said:


> Poor me my old lady is screwing around......
> 
> 
> How about poor old lady...I'm done sharing my wife!!!!!
> 
> Let her go, see if she can keep up?
> 
> Sir you need to laugh and smile and wish your chick the best cuz that kind of confidence will mess with her big time.
> 
> A tactic that just might get her to think twice....second guess her choices.. once she sees what she is *about* to lose.
> 
> Just letting her go just might save this relationship.
> 
> But then again "just letting her go" just might save you??????


:iagree:And you won't be raising someone else's child.


----------



## walkonmars

Don't start beating yourself up. She's not the devil and you're not a chump. She's just not the type of person you thought she was.


----------



## the guy

TornNBroken said:


> Looking back, my gut had bad feelings about all the guys she mentioned from a few years ago. I was too trusting...


No sh1t, thats why *we* are all here!

I thought thats what we were supposed to do....trust our old ladies?


----------



## dubBruin

I'm so sorry man. I'm going through something currently as well. Found out four weeks ago (after ignoring signs for a year) and it is only getting harder.

How has her behavior to you been the last two years? How was right after you were in Florida? How has it changed since February? Think hard. Think about it. Find the times it was similar to this last month. She could have been cheating on you then.

Take the baby out of the equation for now. After knowing shes cheated multiple times, and has only now, 2 years later, confessed, do you think she would do it again if you stayed?

If its your baby, raise it well, give it as much time and tenderness as you can. If its with her, thats your choice, but if its without, the baby will survive. It'll grow to be an awesome person, because you sound like you have it together.

It's too soon to answer most the questions I asked. But its definitely time to slowly cut her free to see how it is without her. I think you'll find its not as bad as you imagine.

Listen to the smart people on this forum. I should have a long time ago.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> Why do I need to know more? If there are 5 more guys, does that change anything? What can she tell me that would change anything at this point?
> 
> I need to get that early paternity test and go from there.
> 
> I feel like seeing her now can only need to bad things.


Good. If you've heard enough that you're at the dealbreaker point and you are now moving on, that's fine. You can reevaluate your status and decision when you get the DNA results.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> Why do I need to know more? If there are 5 more guys, does that change anything? What can she tell me that would change anything at this point?
> 
> I need to get that early paternity test and go from there.
> 
> I feel like seeing her now can only need to bad things.


Unless you have a violent streak in you, in which case I fully support you not going, I can think of several reasons.

If you want to reconcile ... and in your anger you might not think you want to but you may change your mind ... so,

1) You still need to know the whole truth as painful as it is going to be. I don't think from what she has said that she is a serial cheater. I think she has very poor boundaries. She could be a serial cheater ... you don't know everything. Again, you need to know what your wife is all about. It will be more difficult to learn to trust her again if you don't.

2) It will help her. You may feel like you shouldn't help her ... but you want to help her in order to help yourself. SHE needs to feel like everything has been said ... that it is all out in the open. If she is going to change her ways, this has to happen. She needs to make a clean break from her past and start your relationship over again.

3) If this is your child then you may be more inclined to reconcile, making 1 and 2 much more important. If this is your child, she will be part of your life forever, even if you are divorced.


----------



## Cabsy

I'm disappointed but not surprised to hear there was more, and it sounds like there is more yet to come. I know how you feel with regards to the woman, but again, not the child. This situation sucks, no two ways about it.

You seem to be doing a fine job so far. This isn't easy. Don't settle for anything less than the truth and remember where she's coming from: She's likely still saying anything to protect her relationship with the other guy, or she's saying whatever she thinks will make things work with you. Maybe both. She doesn't want to lose or face the potential catastrophic consequences of her actions, but she already did the deed. Either way, she's been acting on self-interest and self-preservation instead of what's good for your relationship, possibly your family. 

How do you know when the final lie has been told? I'm trying to figure that one out myself, but if you let your guard down and start to accept the trickle truth as the real truth, it will keep knocking you off your feet as new details come forth. You should know now that anything is possible.


----------



## the guy

Nicola12 said:


> If you are worried about the child: if it is indeed your child, I am sure that you would be able to provide a much better stable and safe environment/place to go to (even if part-time) on your own than an environment where you are together with your wife and always wondering, checking, on edge and not feeling valued. Kids thrive on dependability and she doesn't sound so dependable to me...


That is an awsome place to start....knowing you are way better!

She's the cheater, your not, so you already have that.



You may not feel like it but you have to....you must show your old lady how confident you can be.

Even if your not, fake until you make it.

Chicks dig confident men, thats just how it is!


----------



## carpenoctem

Torn:

*Some people one may forgive, but must forsake, for one's own sanity and self-preservation.*

Your child deserves a parent like you -- as you are now / have been until now), with a kind, loving, sacrificing persona.

*If you stay in this marriage, will that persona remain intact?*





Anywhichway, from the sound of it, she seems to have serial cheating tendencies (she has admitted to some, and I am sure you will know more soon enough), and THAT would make the decision for you, I presume.


From her account: *she had an intimate evening with one man, making out, etc., and after he leaves, she has a one night stand with ANOTHER man (his friend) - that denotes an extreme lack of respect for her own femininity / inherent dignity as a woman (not to mention wife & mother), and a readiness to objectify herself as a sex apparatus.*

*That (hit on one, sleep with another if he walks off) is not just standard wayward behaviour, it is downright a sex tramp trait*.

*Should you really push this broken-down car until your child reaches the 16/18-year destination?*

If you ask your own child after he/she has grown up, he/she would probably tell you that such martyrdom for their sake was not warranted.

Heck, your life has value too, just like theirs.

Please look for an in-between, Sir.


----------



## TornNBroken

I just cant help but believe it IS my kid. And I'm having a harder time accepting that than accepting the possibility of divorce. I never in a million years thought that I would be part of a broken family.


----------



## tom67

You are 29! You can still have a family with someone else.


----------



## TornNBroken

If it is my kid, I could never just let her raise it alone, and I don't know how I can raise a kid PART TIME! If its my kid, I want to be there for every damn moment of that kids life.


----------



## jim123

You have been gone three days so it seems that she had one more ttime with him. She will contact him again.

She has also had this affair while getting help so that can not be helping too much.

She needs you because she has no one at this time to help her raise the child.

She will still go through mid life and also a crisis after the birth of the child.


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## TornNBroken

How can I stay with her? How can I live without being a full time parent to my kid?

I feel like those are two absolutes that don't work with each other. How can I pick?


----------



## jim123

TornNBroken said:


> If it is my kid, I could never just let her raise it alone, and I don't know how I can raise a kid PART TIME! If its my kid, I want to be there for every damn moment of that kids life.


Are you willing to have an open marriage.


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## TornNBroken

jim123 said:


> Are you willing to have an open marriage.


I think you know the answer.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> I just cant help but believe it IS my kid. And I'm having a harder time accepting that than accepting the possibility of divorce. I never in a million years thought that I would be part of a broken family.


I really hope it is your child. My heart breaks for you. I remember when I found out I was having my first child and there was no feeling like it. Creed's song "With Arms Wide Open" was constantly playing on the radio at the time and it choked me up every time I heard it. One of the happiest moments of my life ... until she was born and THAT was the happiest moment of my life. Today, she is an amazing young lady and we have a very special bond. I REALLY want and hope for this child to be yours. That uncertainty makes this betrayal all the more tragic.


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## TornNBroken

Even though it would crush me, I think i'd be relieved if it wasn't my kid.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> Even though it would crush me, I think i'd be relieved if it wasn't my kid.


Well on the flip side, I took my oldest daughter to get braces yesterday and got my $200 per month payment booklet to go along with the $240 per month I already pay for her dance and music activities ... so there is that 

I know ... humor probably falls flat right now ... I'm assuming that it would be a relief because of the circumstances she will be born into. I have no doubt you will be a good father.


----------



## jim123

TornNBroken said:


> I think you know the answer.


You already do.

You can be part of your childs life. It is no the amount of time but the quality. Start exposing to get support. Do not make a decision alone.

For her to come clean at this time after so many men brace yourself more truth. The affair is longer than she has told you and it may not be yours.

The fact she contacted and had sex with him after she confessed to you is very disturbing.

That is another slap.


----------



## TornNBroken

jim123 said:


> You already do.
> 
> You can be part of your childs life. It is no the amount of time but the quality. Start exposing to get support. Do not make a decision alone.
> 
> For her to come clean at this time after so many men brace yourself more truth. The affair is longer than she has told you and it may not be yours.
> 
> The fact she contacted and had sex with him after she confessed to you is very disturbing.
> 
> That is another slap.


She said her last time was Tuesday night. She came home around 10pm "from her mom's and shopping" and that's when she told me.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> She said her last time was Tuesday night. She came home around 10pm "from her mom's and shopping" and that's when she told me.


So she told you right after she had sex with him. In fact, she felt so guilty that she did it twice ... just to be sure it was guilt she was feeling.

Sorry to be so candid ... that REALLY burns me. Again, I'm very sorry you are in this situation. You don't deserve it at all.

This is still very fresh. I would not trust her for one second that it is really over. If you divorce, she will look for comfort. If you reconcile, it will be very difficult and she will have someone to turn to during the really bad moments. Whether you R or D, you need to make sure that her relationship with OM is DONE.


----------



## Machiavelli

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> So she told you right after she had sex with him. In fact, she felt so guilty that she did it twice ... just to be sure it was guilt she was feeling.
> 
> Sorry to be so candid ... that REALLY burns me. Again, I'm very sorry you are in this situation. You don't deserve it at all.


Right after OM dumped her. Gotta go back to the guy she thinks of as a "beta Provider". Torn, you can't change the dna test by worrying about it. Get some sleep. It will come out in the test, then you can think with purpose instead of getting all wound up over something you cannon yet grapple with.


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## walkonmars

Some one else knows of the affair. It's quite likely one of her running friends knew, supported, advised.


----------



## itom72

TornNBroken said:


> Even though it would crush me, I think i'd be relieved if it wasn't my kid.


There's no doubt you'd be incredibly relieved if the kid's not yours. Right now, it's the 800-pound gorilla on your back, and he falls right off if you're not the baby's daddy.

But even if you ARE the bio father, you need to lay out a clear plan for how you're going to be a good *divorced* dad; such a term is not an oxymoron. There are resources available in this regard: Jeffery Leving's book is touted as being helpful.

The point is, don't fall into the trap of thinking "my kid = stay with cheating wife".


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> Right after OM dumped her. Gotta go back to the guy she thinks of as a "beta Provider". Torn, you can't change the dna test by worrying about it. Get some sleep. It will come out in the test, then you can think with purpose instead of getting all wound up over something you cannon yet grapple with.


This and scope out the women at work, down the road I'm just saying.


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## dubBruin

I don't think you'll sleep much until exhaustion tonight. Take a few days off of work if possible. Do anything you want for you. Keep her at a distance.

Just did a little research. She needs to be 9-10 weeks along before you can do a prenatal DNA test. That's going to feel light years man.

Be strong. Don't make any decisions in the next few weeks. Be civil to her, but keep her at a distance. Her tears will make you want to rugsweep this. Her pleading will make you make bad decisions. Think of yourself for the next month, get that test, then decide.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

For what it's worth, I am not my father's child. My mother, an Ivy League grad, had a wild streak and cheated on her fiance, the man who raised me as his son. I found out 40 years later (I'm 45). 

I am sure it will be a relief if you find out the child isn't yours ... but if it is, you can raise the child. It won't be traditional but the child can still have a happy healthy childhood.


----------



## TornNBroken

Listen, I know you are all telling me to focus on myself, and I GET THAT. I do. I just cant stop thinking about that kiddo, and I'm worried. My wife is distraught and wrought with grief that I'm gonna leave here. I know there's no true relationship with any of these guys and I know I'm a good husband, so I get why she would be so stressed about me calling it quits. I'm worried she's gonna miscarry, or that the stress is gonna mess with that kids development...

Am I being paranoid?


----------



## TornNBroken

dubBruin said:


> I don't think you'll sleep much until exhaustion tonight. Take a few days off of work if possible. Do anything you want for you. Keep her at a distance.
> 
> Just did a little research. She needs to be 9-10 weeks along before you can do a prenatal DNA test. That's going to feel light years man.
> 
> Be strong. Don't make any decisions in the next few weeks. Be civil to her, but keep her at a distance. Her tears will make you want to rugsweep this. Her pleading will make you make bad decisions. Think of yourself for the next month, get that test, then decide.


She's in that 9-10 week range actually. I think I said 2 months just cause. And I'm off work til Monday. I work in pediatric anesthesia though, and I'm worried about going back even then. May need to take some kinda leave for a bit if they let me.


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## walkonmars

Her parents should be looking after her for the time being.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> Listen, I know you are all telling me to focus on myself, and I GET THAT. I do. I just cant stop thinking about that kiddo, and I'm worried. My wife is distraught and wrought with grief that I'm gonna leave here. I know there's no true relationship with any of these guys and I know I'm a good husband, so I get why she would be so stressed about me calling it quits. I'm worried she's gonna miscarry, or that the stress is gonna mess with that kids development...
> 
> Am I being paranoid?


I would not worry about a possible miscarriage or the stress somehow inhibiting the child's development. I think it is extremely unlikely. Your wife is very healthy. I think everything will be fine.

I know that is a very real concern for you. You cannot let that be a reason to sweep it under the rug. This is a pattern of behavior that will not stop unless there are consequences. I think it is ok to reassure her that even if the two of you divorce, you will always be there for your child. That is, I'm sure, a very big concern for her.


----------



## tom67

TornNBroken said:


> She's in that 9-10 week range actually. I think I said 2 months just cause. And I'm off work til Monday. I work in pediatric anesthesia though, and I'm worried about going back even then. May need to take some kinda leave for a bit if they let me.


Yes tell your boss what's up that is important.


----------



## aug

TornNBroken said:


> I just can't get over how remorseful she was the other night when she told me. Ive never seen her cry so hard. I can't imagine she doesn't truly want to be with me, based off of the things she said and how she said them. *Can she be THAT manipulative, or just be trying to cover her ass?*



Yes, yes she can.

Look, she fvcked another man right under your nose. How much more of a liar can she be?


----------



## PreRaphaelite

TornNBroken said:


> Listen, I know you are all telling me to focus on myself, and I GET THAT. I do. I just cant stop thinking about that kiddo, and I'm worried. My wife is distraught and wrought with grief that I'm gonna leave here. I know there's no true relationship with any of these guys and I know I'm a good husband, so I get why she would be so stressed about me calling it quits. I'm worried she's gonna miscarry, or that the stress is gonna mess with that kids development...
> 
> Am I being paranoid?


No it's a very legitimate concern. But expectant mothers are not that fragile, especially a young, healthy one like your ummm.. "wife." In fact they're quite resilient. A woman's body is capable of standing up to a lot more punishment than a man's in many ways. Men wouldn't have a ghost of a chance of bearing a child! Children have been carried to term under much worse circumstances.

Ask an ob-gyn for some advice if you're worried. 

Now as for the WW, staying together for the child is the absolutely wrong thing to do. Children are observant. If the parents aren't happy with each other they sense it, even at an early age. As they grow older it gets worse. 

You most certainly can be a good _divorced_ father. It will break your heart, I know, but you cannot throw away your own life just for the sake of your kid. And you're being trickle-truthed, understand that much.

There is more. She is now desperate because she's in danger of losing you and it scares her to death. That doesn't mean she loves you. She is crying as much for herself as for you. She betrayed you in a terrible way and now she's realizing what the consequences are.


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## PreRaphaelite

Oh and BTW: why do you think that if you divorce her she'll be ruined? The court will award her support ... from you. You'll be paying child support. 

Unless the child is not yours. And you may be paying child support even then.

She's not gonna be out on the street. Courts don't do that to expectant mothers.


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## TornNBroken

PreRaphaelite said:


> Oh and BTW: why do you think that if you divorce her she'll be ruined? The court will award her support ... from you. You'll be paying child support.
> 
> Unless the child is not yours. And you may be paying child support even then.
> 
> She's not gonna be out on the street. Courts don't do that to expectant mothers.


I never said anything about being financially ruined.


----------



## aug

TornNBroken said:


> I* just cant help but believe it IS my kid. * And I'm having a harder time accepting that than accepting the possibility of divorce. I never in a million years thought that I would be part of a broken family.


Why? Because she said so? And you believe a serial cheater?

The kid is not your responsibility till she proves it's yours.

Dont get so caught up thinking it's yours.


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## PBear

Do you have access to her cell phone records, so you can see how far back this really goes?

C


----------



## PreRaphaelite

TornNBroken said:


> I never said anything about being financially ruined.


Do not try to be the white knight. It's not you it is her that has ruined her life. She may be sorry now, but there is a very common thing called false reconciliation. She may very well say anything right now not to lose you because if she does, her secure life has just gone down the drain.


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## TornNBroken

I'm a joint "authorized account holder" on our family plan that my brother started. Can I just call and ask for her records?


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## Wiserforit

You don't have to make permanent decisions immediately.

Getting the clearest idea about the facts and letting that soak in is the best you can do in the present.

There is something wrong with the story of screwing this guy on Tuesday and then coming home to tell you she was having an affair and had decided to end it. 

You don't have it all yet.


----------



## aug

TornNBroken said:


> Listen, I know you are all telling me to focus on myself, and I GET THAT. I do. I just cant stop thinking about that kiddo, and I'm worried. My wife is distraught and wrought with grief that I'm gonna leave here. I know there's no true relationship with any of these guys and I know I'm a good husband, so I get why she would be so stressed about me calling it quits. I'm worried she's gonna miscarry, or that the stress is gonna mess with that kids development...
> 
> Am I being paranoid?



Your problem is that if the child is not yours, you will start to resent that you stayed. This negativity will most surely rub off on the child. In many ways, if you stay for a child that's not yours, you are really going to fvck the child's mind and psychological growth. A child is not stupid. He/she will sense that resentment. That'll be your eternal consequences for messing with an innocent child.

Let her have the baby. If yours, then fine, take responsibility. If not, let her, her mother, her siblings deal with her child.

She made the choice to be a serial cheater. That's her consequences to bear.


----------



## Horizon

Machiavelli said:


> And how's that working out for you?
> 
> Dr Phil jokes aside, you should be flirting very lightly and basically just acting like the cøck of the walk where your wife can see it. Use a light touch, but do it. It does no good if your wife isn't around to see it.
> 
> Every time some female coworker came onto me, I used to tell my wife. I didn't do it to up my sex rank, I did it so I would be less tempted to ever respond to some of that stuff, some of which was really over the top. In retrospect, this worked really well, since it happened a lot.
> 
> This is your physique goal, how do you stack up?


Really hate that when people pass my pic around without asking...


----------



## aug

Horizon said:


> Really hate that when people pass my pic around without asking...


well, that's kinda s m a l l ....

must be the cold.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

aug said:


> well, that's kinda s m a l l ....
> 
> must be the cold.


lol. Maybe a grower not a show-er.


----------



## PBear

TornNBroken said:


> I'm a joint "authorized account holder" on our family plan that my brother started. Can I just call and ask for her records?


You can call and ask, can't hurt. If you can't get that, then it's on HER to get a copy of those records for you, printed out all nice and clear. Say for the last year or so at least. You want to have his number nicely highlighted. If that means your brother finds out what's going on, well that's one of the eggs that gets broke making the omelet she decided she needed.

How did they communicate, do you know? She should be turning over absolutely EVERY password and credential she has to you. AND SHE'S NOT ALLOWED TO DELETE A THING. 

How did she say they met? Massage, or message? WTF does either of them mean, anyway? More clarity on that would be good, so you can see what the scope was, if you want to.

Keep in mind that no matter what happens, it was her decision to do what she did. If this ends up wrecking your marriage, it was her decisions and actions that caused it. Not you exposing what she did. If she hadn't have cheated, there would be no exposure.

C


----------



## PreRaphaelite

aug said:


> well, that's kinda s m a l l ....
> 
> must be the cold.


What? Not only do you have to look like David against Goliath but you have to be hung like a horse now to attract a woman? That disqualifies most of us doesn't it (except for me of course).


----------



## TOMTEFAR

TornNBroken said:


> How am I supposed to go through the next 7 months of the pregnancy? What if she WAS telling the truth. What if it was just twice and she never did anything like this again? I know I know, you probably think I'm being naive, but lets just assume. Lets also assume this IS my kid. And lets assume she is 100% committed to reconciling...then what?
> 
> How am I supposed to conduct myself until a DNA test can be done after the kid is born? From what I read, all the tests done before the kid is born carry a risk to the pregnancy, and that's not something I'm will to do.


My brother actually whent trough just this. DDay in may/June. Birth in November. It was a real pain for him. What helped him was not living with his XW at the time. That caused a lot of friction and problems. I would recomend you not living together full time at least for the remaining 7 months unless you come to a closure and are able to cope with it without causing to much problems. 

At least living separated without to much communication allowed my brother to focus on other things and not be reminded all the time. They would meet up for Medical checkups and such but not to socialize.

IC for you is a must as well I Think.

Also to let you know, my brother realy wanted to at least be able to live together with his XW for the first months/year once the baby was born. So he didn't separate because he wanted a divorce.


----------



## TOMTEFAR

TornNBroken said:


> If I'm supposed to wait to even talk about R, then what am I supposed to do in the mean time? Tell everyone and make her stay at her parents? I cant imagine telling everyone at this point in time is helpful, and by everyone, I mean those outside immediate family. But how could I exist for months without friends and co-workers starting to ask whats going on? Where's your wife? Not to mention that we JUST (like in last Friday) started telling friends and acquaintances about the baby. I'm afraid that if there was some chance of saving our marriage, that I might lose that chance by publicly shaming her. Especially if that shame and embarrassment comes when she doesn't even know if I'm willing to try and work things out.


If she realy is remorcefull and wants to get back with you then exposing it to every one will give you some insight.

1) Will she be angy at you? Bad for her.
2) Will she keep being remorsefull and eat all the negative feedback she gets from those exposed to and still be loving to you and remorcefull. Good for you.

Also exposing it will help in ending the A. If it has gone underground. It will also hinder it from starting up again. It will also give her consequences for the actions she did. She will have to own it.

Her actions once exposed will give you a lot of insight to help you make your chose to R or D.

Also it will help you. You are a wreck now and people will notice and wonder. Exposing it will get you sympathy and help from others. It will also help you in your work since I sure you wont perform as good as normal and for your boss to know is good. They would hopefully cut you som slack. You could get in trouble in your work if they don't know why you are not performing as usual.


----------



## TRy

TornNBroken said:


> How can I stay with her? How can I live without being a full time parent to my kid?
> 
> I feel like those are two absolutes that don't work with each other. How can I pick?


 You can pick by asking the right question. Your choice is not between divorce and a healthy marriage environment to raise the child. Your choice is between divorce and a toxic marraige environment for the child, where there will be no love or trust and where you will deeply resent being trapped in a marriage with a serial cheater. 

Although some marriages heal after an affair, yours will not. This was not an oops one time mistake with one guy. This was multiple guys who knew each other, and who knew that she was married, passing her around. She was their sl*t, and you were the joke. Half the fun of doing your wife was that it made them feel superior to you. Her cheating on you has been poisoning your life together for most of your marraige. Most of your marraige has been a lie. Even in the unlikely event that she does not cheating again, as a normal human being, you will not be able to get over this, and it will end in divorce eventually.


----------



## Will_Kane

What kind of wife screws around and has unprotected sex WHILE she is trying to get pregnant with her husband?

Why bring a kid into a relationship in which she is cheating?

And on top of that to throw the question of paternity into the mix?

What kind of woman is she?


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Torn, get a paternity test when the child is born. Don't go just on her word about the new coming baby, demand this test.

Make your decision whether you'd forgive her or not after the results come back. That's unless your willingly going to take on another mans baby for the rest of the child's life.

Stop worrying about how your wife feels. People who cheat lie. They will lie to say what you want to hear or what they think you want to hear.

I am so sorry your here. Personally I'd divorce and move on.


----------



## bfree

There was a thread on here a short time ago where the husband forgave his wife for kissing another man. Two years later he found out that they had in fact had sex several times and their son was not in fact his but the product of one of her acts of infidelity. Are you so certain that is not the reason she is so worried?


----------



## ironman

TornNBroken said:


> Listen, I know you are all telling me to focus on myself, and I GET THAT. I do. I just cant stop thinking about that kiddo, and I'm worried. My wife is distraught and wrought with grief that I'm gonna leave here. I know there's no true relationship with any of these guys and I know I'm a good husband, so I get why she would be so stressed about me calling it quits. I'm worried she's gonna miscarry, or that the stress is gonna mess with that kids development...
> 
> Am I being paranoid?


No, you are being ridiculous. Torn, your story is heart-breaking, I get that. But *what good is it going to do this child to grow up in a love-less marriage? * Think long and hard on that. You can't trust her (love is built on trust). She doesn't respect you ... and she is a serial cheater (she'll never change despite her words).

Being a "part-time" parent is not the end of the world. Many children grow up fine in this situation. Kids are tougher than you are giving them credit for. You seem fixated on staying with her for very wrong reasons. A marriage like that is destined for failure from the outset. It would be better for that child to not see their parents ripped apart (by a future infidelity) while growing up in an unstable marriage. REMEMBER: You're the only committed one here! Relationships take 2 committed people. Sheesh.

If this child is indeed yours, start a new loving family ... in that way you can teach this child what a healthy relationship looks like. The one you are currently in is doomed to be a bad example. Stop fooling yourself.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

Torn:

You need to take a pause and make sure you are processing everything.

From what you have written she still knows how to push your buttons to manipulate you example:" I will be damned if I do and damned if I don't" She knows how you will react to this and is probably using this on you to make you have compassion for her because she is in such a bad position with you and you will be the bad guy if you do damn her.

She answered the questions, but you need her to write down a complete time line from the begining. The cross check it with what you know and from her previous answers, most of the time you will find more information they what she has already given to you.

You are not going to get through everything at once, this is not a 90 minute test and at the end you are going to have the grade this process is going on for months and possibly years.

You do need to expose her and her partners. A NC letter is crucial for you and it will require her to make the break, if that is what you want.

Please understand the process you now have to take. If you choose to "R" you are now having a child and that will be stressful on an already damaged marriage. How will she react to those stressful times? Will she revert to this behavior again?

Just because she says now that she is sorry, that border she supposedly had has now been crossed. Once it has been crossed it is easy to cross it again. You know that the possibility exists that you will have to go through this again in the future. Are you willing to live with that and deal with it?

Another factor, don't know if you have had them yet, but you mind movies will be with you for a long time.

Good Luck. You sound like a Good Guy


----------



## JCD

Here is what I would do.

First off: *You act any damn way you want to!*

You want to be cold? Fine. You want to be hostile? Fine. She, as the cheater, needs to suck it up. The fact that she hasn't been served with divorce papers already should have her doing back flips of joy *and you should point out this fact to her!* As long as you behave with a modicum of decorum, she really doesn't have a leg to stand on. No abuse...but if she resents the fact you are no longer treating her like a beloved, trusted and cuddle worthy person, that is too damned bad.

Next up, you don't know what you want to do. This is natural. So...kick the can down the road a bit. You have time. But more on this later.

Sounds like you have some money. I would arrange a twin bed in one of the spare bedrooms (if you already have a larger bed, I'd still get a twin bed and replace it) and move her in there. You are not doing yourself any legal favors by being out of the house. She gets to move out of the master bedroom. You do NOT help her move any of her stuff...and all her stuff gets removed. You can state that divorce is not assured with this move. But you are angry and don't want to sleep next to her, particularly considering how recently she's been a cheater. (I would ask her if she cheated at home and in that bed. If so, buy a new bed...and still move her out)

Next: get real! She's a frigging marathon runner! You think her being weepy sad is going to cripple the baby? Man the fvck up! You are looking for every excuse in the book to rugsweep this. You are! Finding out the wife treated Florida like the Spring Break capital of America hasn't changed your mind for some reason.

Here is the deal: *Your old marriage is over!* It has been critically damaged. No matter what you do, it will never be the same. That doesn't mean you _have_ to END this marriage, but it will be a far different beast. Nothing you do will change this fact.

So...exactly how many other men has she cheated with? I counted three, two with full on sex. I'd ask her that number again.

I would get BOTH mothers involved. You have her repeat her litany of sins to these two women. First off, she may need emotional support and they will likely be a bit more understanding than the dads. Second, she needs to feel some of the consequences. She does! Do you think if she had to face her mom and dad after she did that first one night stand that she's repeat it again? I think not!

Third, mom and mom in law can now start to watch your wife like a hawk. She has shown she can't be trusted around men. Also, you can check how many 'shopping trips' with mom she actually showed up for...

It should go without saying that she needs to defriend and block every male she has friended on FB. Tell her she can reestablish them when she's single. Ditto non-work phone numbers. Ditto TALKING to any non-related male. She is untrustworthy. 

Next...you're a doctor for God's sakes. The chance of damage to a fetus with a small DNA sample is statistically very small AFAIK. You COULD find out the answers quicker. You don't want to.


However much you don't like your role in this farce, she likes hers much less. She is an untrustworthy person who has betrayed you multiple times...and is pregnant. And potentially pregnant with someone else's child. Her life does suck. 

So her fear and distress is real. Whom she is sorrowful over is...undefined, I'm sorry to say.

Allow me to add this: She CAN be very sorry she hurt you...and be very sorry she was caught, be sorry for herself, be sorry to let down her God and family. This isnt a binary thing. Her motives are probably very multifaceted. What is she predominantly scared of? Abandonment and shame most likely. But that doesn't mean she's the Voice of Evil...


----------



## azteca1986

TRy said:


> Although some marriages heal after an affair, yours will not. This was not an oops one time mistake with one guy. This was multiple guys who knew each other, and who knew that she was married, passing her around. She was their sl*t, and you were the joke. Half the fun of doing your wife was that it made them feel superior to you. Her cheating on you has been poisoning your life together for most of your marraige. Most of your marraige has been a lie. Even in the unlikely event that she does not cheating again, as a normal human being, you will not be able to get over this, and it will end in divorce eventually.


Harsh. But fair.

Pack your wife off to her parents and explain the reasons why. You need distance. Your wife may be a serial cheater, but a pregnant mother in her first trimester needs looking after. Just not by you right now.

Look after yourself, Torn. Try and eat.


----------



## movin on

I would get BOTH mothers involved. You have her repeat her litany of sins to these two women. First off, she may need emotional support and they will likely be a bit more understanding than the dads. Second, she needs to feel some of the consequences. She does! Do you think if she had to face her mom and dad after she did that first one night stand that she's repeat it again? I think not!




Do this
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Did you know any of the mens names she mentioned?

If things go according to the script we see around here, prepare fod it getting worse. Keep telling her you know there is more. After a while tell her she will have to take a polygraph so she might as well tell it all.


----------



## SomedayDig

Wow. Lots of stuff overnight but I caught up.

Torn...I think in my first post I told you about trickle truth and it would appear now you understand exactly what I meant. On Tuesday she said she banged him twice and then late last night it doubled in frequency. I'm sorry, man...but it's not over yet - trickle truth that is. Her avoidance with the question of "intimacy" before they had sex, ie., kissing, handjob, oral...and she blew that off (pardon the pun) by saying she didn't understand the question.

Mmmkay.

My viewpoint differs from some of the posters for one big reason: I believe if BOTH people are willing to work at it, then reconciliation is possible. But...and this is huge...SHE is the one who is gonna do the hard work. Heavy lifting. Real, honest to goodness work to make ammends for the crap she's done.

It begins with the f'ng truth. Anything less than the full truth is unacceptable, and you need to stress that more than anything you ever have in your life. Even though my wife and I continue to work on reconciliation, she knows the name of my attorney and she knows that if I ever find out that anything else happened, that I'm gone. We have 2 kids ages 7 & 10. I love them more than anything, but I will NOT be made more of a f'ng fool through lies after the fact.

JCD made an extremely valid point that you AND her both need to deal with: Your marriage is dead. She killed it when she stepped outside that marriage and somehow thought it would be okay to bang another guy(s). 

If you decide to attempt reconciliation, I'm gonna be brutally honest with you - I am 13 months after Dday. Yesterday, while getting ready to throw out an old computer I decided to wipe the hard drive first. Before I did so, I checked the .dat files to make sure I deleted everything that had any kind of personal info on it. Well, I didn't find anything new, but I found a data file with a date I was told about a few years ago that confirmed what she said. Yes, it was good to find that cuz it proved that she was telling the truth, but it sucked because I was suddenly transformed back to last August when I got the last of the trickle truth.

This sh-t is not easy. If you think reconciling is gonna fix things, you're dead f'ng wrong. It's not that easy and you AND she will sometimes feel like a Mack truck ran over your faces a few times. You've read about "alpha-ing up" and all that jazz here. Well, if you can truly reconcile, an "alpha" won't have sh-t on you.

But you better be sure you know exactly what in the hell you're getting into if you go that route.

However, I don't think SHE is ready yet. That ain't helping your situation.


----------



## barbados

tom67 said:


> You are 29! You can still have a family with someone else.


:iagree:

You are only 29. You need to stop protecting your first love high school sweetheart. You need to stop the "White Knight" stuff. She was broken when you met her, as she has been doing this to you since the jump. This is from one of your posts :

"As far as background with cheating, there was a time in high school when *she kissed another guy* (a long term friend who was also in a relationship) after we had been dating a year. We had a little hiccup, but moved on pretty quickly...Then, in college (year of dating #4) she ended up *kissing a guy from work* and we had a couple of rough months. Now this..."

Really ?? just kissing ? so she was trickle truthing you even since high school, and you have been rug sweeping off and on for 12 years !

So now you are hung up on this idea of a baby now making everything different, assuming it is yours, which it may very likely not be. 

What do you believe is better :
1) a joint custody situation where you have moved on, are a stable person with a new and better woman in you life and a STRONG example to the child

OR.......

2) You stay with her, raise the child with her, she cheats on you till the day she either dies or gets to old for sex, and you live a life of having to shield your child from the ugly truth on a daily basis ?

You Choice.


----------



## Carlchurchill

Massage Envy...holy mother of God you sent your wife into the wolves den!!!!!

MARRIED MEN EVERYWHERE, DONT LET OTHER MEN MASSAGE YOUR WIVES!!!!!


----------



## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> Even though it would crush me, I think i'd be relieved if it wasn't my kid.


Torn if it turns out to be your child, why not sue for full custody?


----------



## JCD

InlandTXMM said:


> Torn if it turns out to be your child, why not sue for full custody?


How exactly is he going to nurse this child? Wet nurses are in short supply these days.


----------



## Thoreau

JCD said:


> How exactly is he going to nurse this child? Wet nurses are in short supply these days.


Huh? Did I miss something?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## InlandTXMM

Took me a while to catch up this morning, but Torn I am SO sorry for you at this turn of events.

Like the others, however, I am not surprised.

Welcome to the hell that is Trickle Truth. You now have MAYBE 20% of the full story. 

Your wife is a serial adulteress.
You did not cause this.
You also cannot fix this.


----------



## InlandTXMM

JCD said:


> How exactly is he going to nurse this child? Wet nurses are in short supply these days.


JCD go back and grab another cup of coffee.

Ever hear of formula? Breast pumps?

I was formula-fed and made it to the other side of infancy just fine.

Plus of course Mom is getting visitation.


----------



## InlandTXMM

Carlchurchill said:


> Massage Envy...holy mother of God you sent your wife into the wolves den!!!!!
> 
> MARRIED MEN EVERYWHERE, DONT LET OTHER MEN MASSAGE YOUR WIVES!!!!!


Hell don't even let a woman do it. Read up on poor "CouldItBeSo"'s surprise lesbian nightmare.


----------



## lewmin

Torn....wow, in less than 24 hours you have about 270 posts. Look, you are in complete shock right now. Those who had a cheating spouse and found out go through exactly the same thing. It's overwhelming and your body breaks down. It took me 9 days to get out of the shock stage. Despite all the advice, you will make some dopey decisions, and you may even eventually regret your own behavior in dealing with this. This is completely normal!!

Once you start feeling a little normal again, things will chrystalize. The only thing I can tell you is to try force yourself to eat a little, go for a walk, etc. As painful as it is, just keep getting the information from your wife.

Also when you are up to it, expose to Massage Envy manager. Do not assume that this guy is single, if that is what your wife told you. (he may be married).

You should not be in a hotel.....if anyone should, it's your wife.

Six months from now, these few days will be a blur. Your mind is racing with every emotion possible. just take care of yourself.

I'm in reconciliation, but let me tell you, it's a man's world out there. I'm an older version of you (56 years old), in shape (I always work out, ran marathons, etc), post grad-degree, make a ton of money, college professor also, fun to be with, so I now know I'm a good catch (although I felt completely like yesterday's garbage for a few months when this first broke).

You will get better in time believe me! You feel like crap right now. But if you leave, women will be lining up for you.


----------



## TornNBroken

1st of all, thanks again for all your comments. My minds been spinning outta control, but I at least have some semblance of sanity when I'm typing, or reading comments.

So I got maybe 4 hours of unrestful sleep last night...biggest thing that kept running through my head was her account of the sex with this Peter guy (fvck protecting his name for some reason).

The more and more I think about it, it just seems all too convenient that they slept together for the 1st time in that 4-5 week window between when we supposedly conceived and when we found out. The MAIN confusing detail though is what she said about condoms and pulling out. She said 3x with, 1x without and then she mentioned him pulling out once (so I assume that's the unprotected time). If he was allegedly using condoms before she knew he was pregnant, that means, they did it three times between mid-Feb and March 1st (which is when we left for a vacation - when we found out she was pregnant), and then only once in the 5 weeks since we got back. That doesn't seem logical. 

BUT, even if that was true, and they have unprotected sex once after our trip, why does he pull out if he knows she's already pregnant? Maybe he didn't believe that she was pregnant? Who knows...

Trickle.

Trickle..

Trickle...




Fvck Me.


----------



## tom67

Call her parents today just lay it all out there.


----------



## tom67

Tell her if she doesn't disclose all the names to pack her stuff because you are filing for divorce.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

tom67 said:


> Tell her if she doesn't disclose all the names to pack her stuff because you are filing for divorce.


Part of the process could be starting to actually file for the divorce.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

InlandTXMM said:


> Hell don't even let a woman do it. Read up on poor "CouldItBeSo"'s surprise lesbian nightmare.


LOL! 

Right, and a lesbian affair could be as deadly as one with the oppositve sex. That affair partner can put you and your families life in jeopardy. They can damage your life, play games with you and your family. They can kill you. This is the reality.


----------



## Silverlining

Your wife thinks there is a chance this baby is not yours.


Things don't add up and she is leaving her options open (only once not using a condom)

Cheating spouses lie!!!!

She is feeding you lies!!! It's highly unlikely he would **** her knowing she is recently pregnant with your child. It's highly unlikely she would risk giving her child an STD by having unprotected sex. 

More likely they had unprotected sex dozens of times prior to her getting pregnant. They were living this fantasy that she is carrying his child and celebrated by having more unprotected sex.


----------



## TRy

*@TornNBroken: You will regret not acting now.* 

Your wife is a serial cheater that has had sex with other men since the early days of your marraige. She has repeatedly cheated on you by at least kissing other men throughout your entire relationship. While not on any birth control, she had unprotected sex with another man prior to knowing that she was pregnant, and then had sex with that same man after she was pregnant. Worse yet, this is only what you know so far. There will be more.

Here is why divorcing her now is so important. In most places, if you wait until the child is born, the child will be your child under that law no matter what the DNA shows and you will be responsible for paying child support until that child is 18. You will owe this child support even if you get divorced after finding out that it is not yours, and even if the child's real father moves in with your wife and raises his child with her. Additionally, the longer that you stay married, the more alimony that she will get with her getting even more as the stay at home mother of a new born child. In many places, if she can get you to stay married to her for 10 years, the alimony is lifetime until she is married again, which will not come quickly if ever because she will not want to give up receiving the alimony. I know a friend that divorced his stay at home wife after less than 10 years of marriage because she was cheating. To keep the alimony coming for as long as possible, she planned her wedding for the week after the alimony ran out even though she had immediately moved in with the other man that she had cheated with. You need to see a lawyer right now to confirm that this is true where you live.

Bottom line, you will feel like a fool and have less money to raise a new family if you do not protect yourself and start looking after your own best long term financial interest. Also, even after a divorce, you can always change your mind and remarry her again if she proves to be worthy, although I doubt that you will want to do so once you clear your head and can think clearly.


----------



## TornNBroken

I just set up an appt for a prenatal paternity test on Monday and told her she needs to be there. She had been texting me nonstop for about 5 minutes with promise after promise about how things would be better and how every issue she ever had with me was so trivial and would never be an issue again.


----------



## tom67

TRy said:


> *@TornNBroken: You will regret not acting now.*
> 
> Your wife is a serial cheater that has had sex with other men since the early days of your marraige. She has repeatedly cheated on you by at least kissing other men throughout your entire relationship. While not on any birth control, she had unprotected sex with another man prior to knowing that she was pregnant, and then had sex with that same man after she was pregnant. Worse yet, this is only what you know so far. There will be more.
> 
> Here is why divorcing her now is so important. In most places, if you wait until the child is born, the child will be your child under that law no matter what the DNA shows and you will be responsible for paying child support until that child is 18. You will owe this child support even if you get divorced after finding out that it is not yours, and even if the child's real father moves in with your wife and raises his child with her. Additionally, the longer that you stay married, the more alimony that she will get with her getting even more as the stay at home mother of a new born child. In many places, if she can get you to stay married to her for 10 years, the alimony is lifetime until she is married again, which will not come quickly if ever because she will not want to give up receiving the alimony. I know a friend that divorced his stay at home wife after less than 10 years of marriage because she was cheating. To keep the alimony coming for as long as possible, she planned her wedding for the week after the alimony ran out even though she had immediately moved in with the other man that she had cheated with. You need to see a lawyer right now to confirm that this is true where you live.
> 
> Bottom line, you will feel like a fool and have less money to raise a new family if you do not protect yourself and start looking after your own best long term financial interest. Also, even after a divorce, you can always change your mind and remarry her again if she proves to be worthy, although I doubt that you will want to do so once you clear your head and can think clearly.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Just found out...need advice *



TRy said:


> *@TornNBroken: You will regret not acting now.*
> 
> Your wife is a serial cheater that has had sex with other men since the early days of your marraige. She has repeatedly cheated on you by at least kissing other men throughout your entire relationship. While not on any birth control, she had unprotected sex with another man prior to knowing that she was pregnant, and then had sex with that same man after she was pregnant. Worse yet, this is only what you know so far. There will be more.
> 
> Here is why divorcing her now is so important. In most places, if you wait until the child is born, the child will be your child under that law no matter what the DNA shows and you will be responsible for paying child support until that child is 18. You will owe this child support even if you get divorced after finding out that it is not yours, and even if the child's real father moves in with your wife and raises his child with her. Additionally, the longer that you stay married, the more alimony that she will get with her getting even more as the stay at home mother of a new born child. In many places, if she can get you to stay married to her for 10 years, the alimony is lifetime until she is married again, which will not come quickly if ever because she will not want to give up receiving the alimony. I know a friend that divorced his stay at home wife after less than 10 years of marriage because she was cheating. To keep the alimony coming for as long as possible, she planned her wedding for the week after the alimony ran out even though she had immediately moved in with the other man that she had cheated with. You need to see a lawyer right now to confirm that this is true where you live.
> 
> Bottom line, you will feel like a fool and have less money to raise a new family if you do not protect yourself and start looking after your own best long term financial interest. Also, even after a divorce, you can always change your mind and remarry her again if she proves to be worthy, although I doubt that you will want to do so once you clear your head and can think clearly.


I hate to say it torn but he is right. I understand you are in shock but you have to start the process right now. Just remember that if you file for divorce you can always change your mind. And even if you actually do divorce you can always remarry. But if you do nothing your choices will be made for you and it will not be to your benefit.


----------



## tom67

TornNBroken said:


> I just set up an appt for a prenatal paternity test on Monday and told her she needs to be there. She had been texting me nonstop for about 5 minutes with promise after promise about how things would be better and how every issue she ever had with me was so trivial and would never be an issue again.


Even if the baby is yours you deserve better than her. Well good job setting up the appt.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> 1st of all, thanks again for all your comments. My minds been spinning outta control, but I at least have some semblance of sanity when I'm typing, or reading comments.
> 
> So I got maybe 4 hours of unrestful sleep last night...biggest thing that kept running through my head was her account of the sex with this Peter guy (fvck protecting his name for some reason).
> 
> The more and more I think about it, it just seems all too convenient that they slept together for the 1st time in that 4-5 week window between when we supposedly conceived and when we found out. The MAIN confusing detail though is what she said about condoms and pulling out. She said 3x with, 1x without and then she mentioned him pulling out once (so I assume that's the unprotected time). If he was allegedly using condoms before she knew he was pregnant, that means, they did it three times between mid-Feb and March 1st (which is when we left for a vacation - when we found out she was pregnant), and then only once in the 5 weeks since we got back. That doesn't seem logical.
> 
> BUT, even if that was true, and they have unprotected sex once after our trip, why does he pull out if he knows she's already pregnant? Maybe he didn't believe that she was pregnant? Who knows...
> 
> Trickle.
> 
> Trickle..
> 
> Trickle...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fvck Me.


Here's some truth:
She's so into this lifestyle of casual sex on the side that she could not even brake her usual behavior of unprotected pickup sex, even while trying to become impregnated by you. That's why she admitted to you that she knew she needed help over this latest OM. She knows she's a megaslvt and this is the proof, even to herself. Her pickup behavior is completely automated into her daily routine to the point that she can't stop, even though it means the likelihood of a cuckold pregnancy.

And, deep down, she thinks OM is likely the father. Such subconscious thinking is part of the beta-ization her Rationalization Hamster does on your manhood. In her deepest soul, she has underlying contempt for you and doesn't see you as a dominant, worthy man to reproduce with. 

Here's the other thing, your wife does all kinds of kinky sh!t with these other men that she will not do with you. Affair sex is the kinkiest sex there is, because the slvt can come out of the bottle. Her full inner slvt has never been revealed to you, even though the curtain has just been pulled back a bit. All women have one and most of them never reveal it to the H, even the loyal Ws usually don't because they don't want their H to know, cause it could be turned against her. 

You have a lot of love still for your wife, but that will be replaced by concern and then contempt as you learn more of her sex-crazed secret life. You need to start the wheels turning on divorce immediately. This marriage is untenable. Maybe somewhere down the road you can get full custody or maybe she will have a Damascus Road experience and morph into the greatest wife ever, but I just don't see it. This is who she is.


----------



## Machiavelli

DaddyLongShanks said:


> prostate surgery lost you some length?


And girth.


----------



## aug

TornNBroken said:


> 1st of all, thanks again for all your comments. My minds been spinning outta control, but I at least have some semblance of sanity when I'm typing, or reading comments.
> 
> So I got maybe 4 hours of unrestful sleep last night...biggest thing that kept running through my head was her account of the sex with this Peter guy (fvck protecting his name for some reason).
> 
> The more and more I think about it, it just seems all too convenient that they slept together for the 1st time in that 4-5 week window between when we supposedly conceived and when we found out. The MAIN confusing detail though is what she said about condoms and pulling out. She said 3x with, 1x without and then she mentioned him pulling out once (so I assume that's the unprotected time). If he was allegedly using condoms before she knew he was pregnant, that means, they did it three times between mid-Feb and March 1st (which is when we left for a vacation - when we found out she was pregnant), and then only once in the 5 weeks since we got back. That doesn't seem logical.
> 
> BUT, even if that was true, and they have unprotected sex once after our trip, why does he pull out if he knows she's already pregnant? Maybe he didn't believe that she was pregnant? Who knows...
> 
> Trickle.
> 
> Trickle..
> 
> Trickle...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fvck Me.



There you go! The questioning, the mind movies, etc is starting. This is not the type of environment the baby should be growing up in. The negativity will rub off on the child.

Your wife gave you this perfect chance to start over, a do-over. With another woman.


----------



## aug

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Part of the process could be starting to actually file for the divorce.


He better file that divorce to protect his legal position now. Time is ticking fast.


----------



## TornNBroken

She keeps suggesting I come home and that she can go stay with a friend...

And, no, not the OM.


----------



## TornNBroken

aug said:


> He better file that divorce to protect his legal position now. Time is ticking fast.


I'm sorry, I'm not ready for that yet. What is gonna change legally in the next few weeks as I wait for a paternity test?


----------



## Machiavelli

Silverlining said:


> More likely they had unprotected sex dozens of times prior to her getting pregnant. *They were living this fantasy that she is carrying his child* and celebrated by having more unprotected sex.


When I was a young guy, I thought it was truly weird how girls, who in no way wanted to get pregnant rationally, would get really revved up and start saying stuff like "give me a baby now" etc. I was like "what the hell? I'm outta here." Of course, after you get that with a few, you figure it out. sorta. Women are interesting in that the basic biological imperative cannot be suppressed and reproductive hypergamy is always just below the surface.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, I'm not ready for that yet. What is gonna change legally in the next few weeks as I wait for a paternity test?


nothing. I looked to see what Colorado is doing with regards to presumptive paternity and dna, and it looks like you will probably be okay on that front, so long as you get the paperwork going as soon as you get a negative on the test.


----------



## PBear

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, I'm not ready for that yet. What is gonna change legally in the next few weeks as I wait for a paternity test?


You really should talk to a "real" lawyer about what your options, rights, and responsibilities are. Maybe it doesn't matter in your jurisdication, maybe it does. But it's not worth risking. Talking to a lawyer doesn't mean you have to file next week or not...

C


----------



## TornNBroken

PBear said:


> You really should talk to a "real" lawyer about what your options, rights, and responsibilities are. Maybe it doesn't matter in your jurisdication, maybe it does. But it's not worth risking. Talking to a lawyer doesn't mean you have to file next week or not...
> 
> C


I suppose...


I just still can't believe this is real


----------



## tom67

PBear said:


> You really should talk to a "real" lawyer about what your options, rights, and responsibilities are. Maybe it doesn't matter in your jurisdication, maybe it does. But it's not worth risking. Talking to a lawyer doesn't mean you have to file next week or not...
> 
> C


Start setting up consultations with a couple of attorneys and learn your legal options.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> I just set up an appt for a prenatal paternity test on Monday and told her she needs to be there. She had been texting me nonstop for about 5 minutes with promise after promise about how things would be better and *how every issue she ever had with me was so trivial *and would never be an issue again.


Like you're ever going to buy into that after all this. SWIM? Contempt fed your trivial issues by her Rationalization Hamster as justification for her adulteries in her own mind.


----------



## Aunt Ava

TornNBroken, I am so sorry that you are in this situation, especially at at time when you should be experiencing the joy of creating a family and bringing your first child into the world. I am sorry that your wife is a serial cheater, and she has been cheating on you from the beginning. 

That knowledge should strengthen your resolve, you must expose her to both her family and your family, and friends. Otherwise, she will begin (if she hasn't already) spinning the story that you worked to much, she was lonely, you weren't there for her emotionally, blah blah blah. Expose all of her infidelities (those you know of so far). 

File for divorce, she fired you and your marriage a over. If she is truly remorseful, and seeks counseling, if she does the hard work she needs to do then maybe in the future you can date again. Maybe, you will realize that you deserve so much better, and believe me once the word is out there will be lots of women happy to "console" you and help you thru this difficult time. 

Trust is such a cornerstone of a marriage, without trust what do you have? Constant worry, stress, insecurity. That's no way for a young, intelligent, successful man to live. You can be there for the child (if it is yours) without sentencing yourself to a life with a serial cheater.


----------



## Machiavelli

PBear said:


> You really should talk to a "real" lawyer about what your options, rights, and responsibilities are. Maybe it doesn't matter in your jurisdication, maybe it does. But it's not worth risking. Talking to a lawyer doesn't mean you have to file next week or not...
> 
> C


Knowledge is power. Get some as soon as possible.


----------



## TRy

TornNBroken said:


> The more and more I think about it, it just seems all too convenient that they slept together for the 1st time in that 4-5 week window between when we supposedly conceived and when we found out. The MAIN confusing detail though is what she said about condoms and pulling out. She said 3x with, 1x without and then she mentioned him pulling out once (so I assume that's the unprotected time). If he was allegedly using condoms before she knew he was pregnant, that means, they did it three times between mid-Feb and March 1st (which is when we left for a vacation - when we found out she was pregnant), and then only once in the 5 weeks since we got back. That doesn't seem logical.


 Since she has acknowledged that it is possible that the other man may be the father, your logic is telling you that her current trickle truth story cannot be true. Also, save the messages admitting to the cheating and hide them elsewhere where she cannot get to them. Take clear photos of text messages on your phone if that is how they were sent. This will be invaluable proof that you will be glad that you have. Good job making her send it to you in writing.


----------



## tom67

Show the in-laws the texts of her admitting all this and ask for any support they can give you. Affairs need to see the light of day.


----------



## river rat

TornNBroken said:


> Exactly. And I know the true way to show God's love to others (including a cheating spouse) is to show forgiveness, which is God's ultimate gift to us.


You are exactly right about forgiveness being God's ultimate
gift. But don't be confused as to what this means. So many people believe that forgiveness means absolving the offending party of all sins and going back to life as it was before the offense. It doesn't work that way. Forgiveness is accepting what has happened and letting go of the anger, which will poison your own soul. It does not mean necessarily that you will reconcile with your wife. It does not mean that you will ever forget what has happened- you won't. It does not mean that you should be able to trust her immediately- you can't. All of this takes time. Be kind to yourself fist of all. At this point you are full of self doubt, asking yourself what you did to cause this (we've all done that). Learn to trust yourself. Arrive at decisions carefully. Decide what you want out of your life. Proceed from there.


----------



## TornNBroken

I'm just so scared of what might happen if this is exposed, and trust me, I'm starting to realize everything you guys are saying is right, so just bear with me....

If I show her family and my family and our friends all that I know, what if they all turn against her? What if she feels so alone and desperate and sees no good ending that she does something stupid and hurts herself? I've never seen her as someone who would do that, but there's obviously a lot about her that I haven't known up until now. We're both have strong beliefs about abortion, but what if she panics, believes the kid is the OM, and thinks its the only barrier between us and R, what if she got rid of it???????? 

I could never live with myself if any of those things happened.


----------



## BrockLanders

Does a prenatal paternity test require an amnio?


----------



## TornNBroken

river rat said:


> Arrive at decisions carefully. Decide what you want out of your life. Proceed from there.


I'm trying so hard to do this in between the tears and prayer...


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

Machiavelli said:


> Here's some truth:
> She's so into this lifestyle of casual sex on the side that she could not even brake her usual behavior of unprotected pickup sex, even while trying to become impregnated by you. That's why she admitted to you that she knew she needed help over this latest OM. She knows she's a megaslvt and this is the proof, even to herself. Her pickup behavior is completely automated into her daily routine to the point that she can't stop, even though it means the likelihood of a cuckold pregnancy.
> 
> And, deep down, she thinks OM is likely the father. Such subconscious thinking is part of the beta-ization her Rationalization Hamster does on your manhood. In her deepest soul, she has underlying contempt for you and doesn't see you as a dominant, worthy man to reproduce with.
> 
> Here's the other thing, your wife does all kinds of kinky sh!t with these other men that she will not do with you. Affair sex is the kinkiest sex there is, because the slvt can come out of the bottle. Her full inner slvt has never been revealed to you, even though the curtain has just been pulled back a bit. All women have one and most of them never reveal it to the H, even the loyal Ws usually don't because they don't want their H to know, cause it could be turned against her.
> 
> You have a lot of love still for your wife, but that will be replaced by concern and then contempt as you learn more of her sex-crazed secret life. You need to start the wheels turning on divorce immediately. This marriage is untenable. Maybe somewhere down the road you can get full custody or maybe she will have a Damascus Road experience and morph into the greatest wife ever, but I just don't see it. This is who she is.


"Damascus road experience" is this a near death or other life changing experience?


----------



## TornNBroken

BrockLanders said:


> Does a prenatal paternity test require an amnio?


No, I couldn't do anything that would but that lil kiddo at increased risk, even if its not minee....There's a blood test that is 99.9% accurate if its positive for paternity, and 100% accurate if it says your not the father. Suppose to be able to take it as early as 9 weeks, but the lab people said its more accurate if you wait til 12. Ive mentioned before that we are in the 9-10 wk range, but I cant wait any longer....its gonna take 10-14 business days to get the results as it is....so she is going monday morning, and I'm going later in the day


----------



## tom67

Torn, you can't control her. You can only control what you will tolerate. You don't have to give details to them just say she cheated and is living with a friend for now until I decide what I am going to do and clear my head. How's that?


----------



## TornNBroken

DaddyLongShanks said:


> "Damascus road experience" is this a near death or other life changing experience?



Yeah...

On the road to Damascus, Paul a persecuter and murderer of Christians met God and turned into a disciple of Christ.


----------



## InlandTXMM

Torn most of these "what ifs" are avoidance tactics your mind is sending up to stop you from facing this. It's very common.

Destroying the illusion your wife has around her, making her see the very real damage she's caused, and making her aware that you are not a man who will stand for anything like this, is what is paramount. 

She needs to face a consequence, many of them actually, in direct measure to the devastation she has brought to your lives. If she doesn't receive this consequence, she will view this event as a close call, but not a game-changer.

Your wife has said she will do anything to reconcile with you. It's time for her to prove it.

Out this infidelity - find out if these guys are married (and were when this happened), and EXPOSE THEM. These c0ckroaches will scurry for a dark corner, but only after you flip on the light switch.

The medicine is harsh, but the patient requires it.


----------



## aug

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, I'm not ready for that yet. What is gonna change legally in the next few weeks as I wait for a paternity test?


Will she get an abortion if you confirm the baby is not yours? You know, to keep you as Plan B, her meal ticket, while she learns how to takes her sex activity deeper underground.


----------



## TornNBroken

tom67 said:


> Torn, you can't control her. You can only control what you will tolerate. You don't have to give details to them just say she cheated and is living with a friend for now until I decide what I am going to do and clear my head. How's that?


Listen, I'm really not blaming myself for this...maybe those thoughts will come later, i dunno.

But I can barely look at myself in the mirror, let alone look my parents in law in the face and tell them their daughter is a *****. 

Not to mention that my mother in law has already been hospitalized with Takatsubo cardiomyopathy.

Look it up and then see, if you were me, if you would go tell her daughter has destroyed your life


----------



## Machiavelli

BrockLanders said:


> Does a prenatal paternity test require an amnio?


no


----------



## tom67

And Torn you need some sort of support system don't go this alone talk to your mom or dad whoever you are more comfortable with or a good friend you have nothing to be ashamed of.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

TornNBroken said:


> I'm just so scared of what might happen if this is exposed, and trust me, I'm starting to realize everything you guys are saying is right, so just bear with me....
> 
> If I show her family and my family and our friends all that I know, what if they all turn against her? What if she feels so alone and desperate and sees no good ending that she does something stupid and hurts herself? I've never seen her as someone who would do that, but there's obviously a lot about her that I haven't known up until now. We're both have strong beliefs about abortion, but what if she panics, believes the kid is the OM, and thinks its the only barrier between us and R, what if she got rid of it????????
> 
> I could never live with myself if any of those things happened.


This is not the aim of exposing the affair to family and friends. It is to end the affair once and for all. By exposing it, you are robbing the WW and the OM of their fantasy world, which thrives on secrecy. Stripping her of the fantasies she's been living for god-knows-how-long is not a bad thing.

Tell family and friends that your reason for exposing is that. To end this once and for all, and that without this there is absolutely no possibility for R. 

It's highly unlikely that her family turns against her. They may give her some tough love, but they may also circle the wagons and try to protect her. But exposing is actually a step in the right direction, not the wrong one.


----------



## TornNBroken

InlandTXMM said:


> Torn most of these "what ifs" are avoidance tactics your mind is sending up to stop you from facing this. It's very common.
> 
> Destroying the illusion your wife has around her, making her see the very real damage she's caused, and making her aware that you are not a man who will stand for anything like this, is what is paramount.
> 
> She needs to face a consequence, many of them actually, in direct measure to the devastation she has brought to your lives. If she doesn't receive this consequence, she will view this event as a close call, but not a game-changer.
> 
> Your wife has said she will do anything to reconcile with you. It's time for her to prove it.
> 
> Out this infidelity - find out if these guys are married (and were when this happened), and EXPOSE THEM. These c0ckroaches will scurry for a dark corner, but only after you flip on the light switch.
> 
> The medicine is harsh, but the patient requires it.


I know I all these guys, except for the Massage Envy prick. Two of these guys were in my grad school class, and I knew the other from social events. The guy that slept with her/took advantage/raped/whatever the fvck it was at the party is actually someone who found out his wife was cheating on him with another WOMAN and had to drop out of the program when he started. He "got his sh!t together" and started the program again 2 years later in my class... They are all in other states right now...


And the kicker....he just came out for a week of skiing with a bunch of anesthesia buddies not too long ago and we all stayed together in a cabin, my wife included. I was never apart from my wife during the trip, but still.


----------



## river rat

TornNBroken said:


> If this is true (and I have no reason to think its not), then what is the point of reconciling? Seems better to just break it off and start fresh if I have to live a marriage where I can never TRULY trust . BUT if this kid IS mine, then I will never be free from her. If we divorced, I'd still be seeing her on a weekly basis most likely. God, that sounds awful. How freaking awkward would that be. And would I still see my in laws? Could I go to the park with my kid and my mother-in-law? Why not? But how weird.
> 
> Ugh. My mind is racing.
> 
> This question, "How will I ever be able to trust again?" is one we all have experienced. To this I say, put your trust in God first (whatever you conceive Him to be) and in yourself second. Accept that people are not always loving and loyal. If you think about it, there have been times when you betrayed yourself. It is part of what we are. To trust unconditionally is naive. This does not mean that you should necessarily reconcile with your wife. Wounds this deep take a long time -years- to heal. At this point be patient with yourself and all the emotions you are feeling. Mourn your loss. Move forward knowing that you can resolve the conflict, whether you remain with her or not. That is a choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE FOR HER TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.
> 
> TNB


----------



## Aunt Ava

TornNBroken said:


> The guy that slept with her/took advantage/raped/whatever the fvck it was at the party is actually someone who found out his wife was cheating on him with another WOMAN and had to drop out of the program when he started.
> 
> And the kicker....he just came out for a week of skiing with a bunch of anesthesia buddies not too long ago and we all stayed together in a cabin, my wife included. I was never apart from my wife during the trip, but still.


So your wife spent a week in a cabin with you and one of the a$$holes she had sex with.....awkward. So did she behave normally? Did your spidey senses pick up any weirdness between them? That is freakin unbelievable, and just sickening.


----------



## TornNBroken

Aunt Ava said:


> So your wife spent a week in a cabin with you and one of the a$$holes she had sex with.....awkward. So did she behave normally? Did your spidey senses pick up any weirdness between them? That is freakin unbelievable, and just sickening.


No, not weird. At least with this guy, it sounds like a drunken night of regret, that I can at least separate somewhat from all the other encounters a bit (whether that's healthy or not, i dunno). But this guy was always all over other girls in my class, especially at drunken parties, he had forced himself on other girls that I know of. My wife has always been disgusted with him, at least to my face. And we had some talks during that week about how sad his life was and how he was still a creep and an alcoholic (there were other girls with us who he was creeping on).


----------



## barbados

TornNBroken said:


> I'm just so scared of what might happen if this is exposed, and trust me, I'm starting to realize everything you guys are saying is right, so just bear with me....
> 
> If I show her family and my family and our friends all that I know, what if they all turn against her? What if she feels so alone and desperate and sees no good ending that she does something stupid and hurts herself? I've never seen her as someone who would do that, but there's obviously a lot about her that I haven't known up until now. We're both have strong beliefs about abortion, but what if she panics, believes the kid is the OM, and thinks its the only barrier between us and R, what if she got rid of it????????
> 
> I could never live with myself if any of those things happened.



Torn, you can be stronger than you realize, and this is going to get you strong, like it or not. And you would be very surprised with what you can and cannot live with when necessary. 

You have to keep telling yourself that even if any or all of the above things were to happen to her, it is BECAUSE SHE CAUSED THEM TO HAPPEN ! YOU ARE THE INNOCENT PERSON HERE !


----------



## PBear

I've posted my story in here before, but to give you the quick and dirty Cole's Notes version... I'm the spouse that cheated in my relationship. Never been cheated on (AFAIK). So I'm not saying this because I've been hurt by a cheater in the past.

Any of those things that you mention are your wife's choices, and a result of her prior decisions. She consciously decided to have sex (unprotected at times) repeatedly with other men while married to you. By doing so, she took risks with her future. She knew that this whole thing could most likely blow up in her face. And she chose to do it not once, but repeatedly.

I agree that her family may very well be upset with her. The same as they would be if she got a drunk driving charge or some other relatively major criminal activity. But it's not you exposing it that is causing a negative reaction to your wife. It's HER actions that caused a negative reaction. You're just doing what you can to make sure this doesn't happen again. Ever.

Your concern for her mother in particular is commendable, and you may want to consider her condition if/when you decide to expose your wife's behaviour. Like, no dramatic "showing the sex tape you found of her at a family dinner"... 

C


----------



## TornNBroken

I'm sorry, but right now it doesn't matter to me whose fault things are. I know that this is all a result of her decisions, and that any future pain and suffering as on her. But that doesn't make it any easier. That doesn't help me at all. I still love her, she's the only person I've truly loved and shared myself with. So regardless of what she's done, I cant sit there and say, well F her, I hope she suffers for what she's done. I just can't. That's not me.


----------



## tom67

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, but right now it doesn't matter to me whose fault things are. I know that this is all a result of her decisions, and that any future pain and suffering as on her. But that doesn't make it any easier. That doesn't help me at all. I still love her, she's the only person I've truly loved and shared myself with. So regardless of what she's done, I cant sit there and say, well F her, I hope she suffers for what she's done. I just can't. That's not me.


Torn after some time you will hit the anger stage and you will have a very different perspective. One day at a time.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

I read somewhere "Someone trying to make a **** into a housewife never understands how futile there efforts are.

Your wife is a serial cheater, liar and deceitful person without any trace of respect for you. At least you know now what she truly is, its time for you to grab what ever you can and run to mountains as far away as possible.

WHY ABORTION IS NOT AN OPTION?

You seems to be a nice guy and a pleaser, some time you have to stand for your self respect else people will treat you life POS.

Dont think no one knows about her cheating, many may be aware of this from the beginning and they may be laughing on your back for some time.


----------



## Aunt Ava

What you have to understand is that she isn't the wife you married. You're still thinking of her as your beloved, you probably have her on that pedestal, your heart wants to believe that she is that sweet, loving, understanding, fun girl you fell in love with. Reality is something quite different. 

None of this is easy. A part of you will probably always love her. You have a history together. Most of the posters have been through what you are going through. We are giving you the advise we wish someone had given us. We are just trying to help a fellow betrayed get through the darkness and maybe give you the benefit of hard won experience.

Think of it as though your wife has become an alien, forget everything you thought you knew about her. Sorry, but it takes a special kind messed up person to put her unborn child at risk for std's.


----------



## TornNBroken

Kallan Pavithran said:


> I read somewhere "Someone trying to make a **** into a housewife never understands how futile there efforts are.
> 
> Your wife is a serial cheater, liar and deceitful person without any trace of respect for you. At least you know now what she truly is, its time for you to grab what ever you can and run to mountains as far away as possible.
> 
> WHY ABORTION IS NOT AN OPTION?
> 
> You seems to be a nice guy and a pleaser, some time you have to stand for your self respect else people will treat you life POS.
> 
> Dont think no one knows about her cheating, many may be aware of this from the beginning and they may be laughing on your back for some time.


I don't believe in abortion.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Right now you're on an emotional roller coaster. You might enter the anger stage soon nearing the DNA paternity test. Anger is not a bad emotion. All emotions should be used positively and for someone to do that they must understand their emotions. EXPOSE this incident to YOUR family and to HER family. Who cares about the tainting of a perfect angel image of your wife, or painting a stupid image of you being a wittol, forget about reputation and EXPOSE to all. You will soon learn that blood runs thicker than water and, you will be able to easily acquire your support system that way.


On another note, since beginning to read the thread this image came to mind.










Admonish the sinner. In order to do that you must have compassion for the sinner and, that is TRUE compassion, not false compassion. 
For a lesson on compassion, watch this video.
Bishop Fulton Sheen on False Compassion(Part I) - YouTube


Life is but decisions. Make a decision, stick to it, change your mind later, so be it, but recall that some decisions are better than others.

I pray that the child is not yours. It doesn't seem like it is yours because of all that crazy condom, pulling out confusion and all the promises she is making before going to the appointment. Your wife has never had any respect for you or love because she couldn't even keep her boundaries of how a faithful loving wife should act, in acts of love, for her husband.


Keep yourself healthy, eat healthy.

Sleep as well as you can, dedicate an hour of everyday to think about your issue. Procrastinate all your thoughts to that dedicated time so you can still be productive and so that you can sleep and put the rest off until tomorrow.

You are christian, don't worry about what you can't control and leave it in God's hands.


----------



## Theseus

Torn,

When you listen to advice on this forum and in this huge thread, keep in mind that many of the people here have themselves been cheated on in the past, and (understandably) they are still hurt over it. As I think you have already noticed, the unfortunate result is that much of the advice you will get here is geared toward punishment instead of reconciliation.

I'm not accusing this person or anyone else of this, but advice like this is not very helpful at all:



PBear said:


> There HAS to be consequences to her actions. If there's not, she's not going to fully understand the impact of what she's done. That means confessing what she's done to her parents and yours.



I'm going to be flamed here for pointing this out, but that is about the worst advice possible. Her parents and her in-laws are not her judge and jury, and she's not married to them. It's none of their business and they probably don't want to hear it, so why force them into this? If you go down that road, why not also make her confess to the neighbors? To their friends? To the police? To their librarian? It's also unnecessary. The husband now knows, so the WS and the OM are already robbed of their "fantasy world". 

You seek forgiveness from people you actually harmed, not random people around you. *The only people she needs to ask forgiveness from are her husband, the OM's wife (if there is one) and her God (if she's religious). That's it*.

Moreover, as the OP pointed out, it makes reconciliation difficult, if not impossible. Good luck holding your marriage together when your family hates her. Good luck hoping for the women in your family to throw a baby shower for your wife when everyone whispers about who your baby really belongs to. Good luck going to your sisters wedding by yourself because your wife is not invited. You get the idea.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

TornNBroken said:


> I don't believe in abortion.


I concur.

Remember there have been cases that have appeared on here where the WS, aborts the child, effectively removing ALL EVIDENCE/PROOF. It is something only a woman can do and men can do nothing about. Abortion will kill the blameless, or shall we call "it" the 'blameful' because "it" ruined everything and all the plans, such horror.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> I don't believe in abortion.





CleanJerkSnatch said:


> Remember there have been cases that have appeared on here where the WS, aborts the child, effectively removing ALL EVIDENCE/PROOF. It is something only a woman can do and men can do nothing about.


As CJS points out, men don't a get a say in this.


----------



## bfree

Well if it turns out that you aren't the father torn exposure kinda takes care of itself right? I mean at that point you're going to have to tell everyone why you are divorcing a pregnant woman.

And just to add I think you're going to find out you aren't the father. The reason I believe that is because from what you've written it's what your wife believes.


----------



## Aunt Ava

Theseus said:


> I'm going to be flamed here for pointing this out, but that is about the worst advice possible.


Dr. Harley recommends exposing affairs. Even to children as young as four years old. He is an expert in the field.


----------



## PBear

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, but right now it doesn't matter to me whose fault things are. I know that this is all a result of her decisions, and that any future pain and suffering as on her. But that doesn't make it any easier. That doesn't help me at all. I still love her, she's the only person I've truly loved and shared myself with. So regardless of what she's done, I cant sit there and say, well F her, I hope she suffers for what she's done. I just can't. That's not me.


Torn,

I won't comment on it again; it's your decision about what needs to be done. I'll just say that it's not about hoping she suffers for what she's done. It is done to ensure that she doesn't do it again. That she starts to understand the magnitude of what she's done. That she has other people looking over her shoulder to make sure she stays on the straight and narrow path.

It's why we punish children... It's not so they "suffer". It's to get them to change their behaviour.

In any case, I wish you well. I do hope, for your sake, that the child is yours, and that you and your wife can reconcile and have a long healthy marriage after this.

C


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Machiavelli said:


> As CJS points out, men don't a get a say in this.


We used to, but that was deemed to be the pillar of the patriarchal domination of women. And now we don't. Women own their own bodies, right? And if they wanna go have sex with another man and get pregnant however they want to while being married, it's their right because it's their bodies. (Ok, I apologize for the exaggeration.) /out


----------



## Aunt Ava

When you have a minute have a look at this article....
SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for Those Affected by Infidelity


----------



## Almostrecovered

a few things since they haven't really been mentioned yet


1) read the newbie link in my signature, it has tons of helpful info 
2) start researching who OM is now that you have his name, just because she thinks he is single doesn't mean that he is
3) please know you have time and making any R or D decision can wait, it is however best to get info from professionals, like the doctor for STD tests, paternity and a lawyer to know your rights. (ie. in Texas you can't divorce while the woman is pregnant, so get to know your rights)


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Theseus said:


> Torn,
> 
> When you listen to advice on this forum and in this huge thread, keep in mind that many of the people here have themselves been cheated on in the past, and (understandably) they are still hurt over it. As I think you have already noticed, the unfortunate result is that much of the advice you will get here is geared toward punishment instead of reconciliation.
> 
> I'm not accusing this person or anyone else of this, but advice like this is not very helpful at all:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to be flamed here for pointing this out, but that is about the worst advice possible. Her parents and her in-laws are not her judge and jury, and she's not married to them. It's none of their business and they probably don't want to hear it, so why force them into this? If you go down that road, why not also make her confess to the neighbors? To their friends? To the police? To their librarian? It's also unnecessary. The husband now knows, so the WS and the OM are already robbed of their "fantasy world".
> 
> You seek forgiveness from people you actually harmed, not random people around you. *The only people she needs to ask forgiveness from are her husband, the OM's wife (if there is one) and her God (if she's religious). That's it*.
> 
> Moreover, as the OP pointed out, it makes reconciliation difficult, if not impossible. Good luck holding your marriage together when your family hates her. Good luck hoping for the women in your family to throw a baby shower for your wife when everyone whispers about who your baby really belongs to. Good luck going to your sisters wedding by yourself because your wife is not invited. You get the idea.



I will quote David, 

"To thee only have I sinned, and have done evil before thee: that thou mayst be justified in thy words and mayst overcome when thou art judged." Psalm 50:6
Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Book Of Psalms Psalm 50


Expose or not to expose. No one is asked to judge when exposed.

Exposure does not make reconciliation impossible, and why would anyone cite the OP as one who says reconciliation is impossible after exposure? Full exposure provides the WS knowledge that everyone knows and may assist to bring an obligation to amend, repair, and change and quit this mad addiction of fleshly passions.


----------



## Theseus

Aunt Ava said:


> Dr. Harley recommends exposing affairs. Even to children as young as four years old. He is an expert in the field.


That's called "appeal to authority". And if Dr. Harley actually said this, it's horrible advice. A four year-old can't understand what's going on, and dragging them into the mud with you isn't going to save the marriage.


----------



## BWBill

_And the kicker....he just came out for a week of skiing with a bunch of anesthesia buddies not too long ago and we all stayed together in a cabin, my wife included. I was never apart from my wife during the trip, but still. 
_


So the two of them walked around all weekend knowing you were a cuckold. Would you do that to someone you loved and respected?

You also realize there may very well be other current "friends" or acquaintances she hasn't told you about that see you the same way.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Aunt Ava said:


> Dr. Harley recommends exposing affairs. Even to children as young as four years old. He is an expert in the field.


Children are brilliant and resilient. They understand when "mommy" or "daddy" have boyfriends or girlfriends or "someone else they love more than mommy/daddy"


----------



## tom67

BWBill said:


> _And the kicker....he just came out for a week of skiing with a bunch of anesthesia buddies not too long ago and we all stayed together in a cabin, my wife included. I was never apart from my wife during the trip, but still.
> _
> 
> 
> So the two of them walked around all weekend knowing you were a cuckold. Would you do that to someone you loved and respected?
> 
> You also realize there may very well be other current "friends" or acquaintances she hasn't told you about that see you the same way.


You love her way more than she loves you. Think about it.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

BWBill said:


> So the two of them walked around all weekend knowing you were a *cuckold*. Would you do that to someone you loved and respected?


He is not a cuckold. That is one who raises another mans child. I'm sure Torn will step out as "gracefully" (run for the hills) as possible if the child is not his. Maybe a wittol, but not anymore.


----------



## ironman

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, but right now it doesn't matter to me whose fault things are. I know that this is all a result of her decisions, and that any future pain and suffering as on her. But that doesn't make it any easier. That doesn't help me at all. I still love her, she's the only person I've truly loved and shared myself with. So regardless of what she's done, I cant sit there and say, well F her, I hope she suffers for what she's done. I just can't. That's not me.


Most of the advice is not about revenge ... it's about trying to help you move on ... without her because 99% of the posters here realize your situation is about as close to unsalvageable as they come ... there are worse, but yours is pretty bad.

You strike me as young and idealistic. That idealism is going to come back to bite you with regards to this woman. I'd be willing to place a large wager on it.

The sad thing is you probably won't realize it until a few years down the road when you've had more kids with her and she shatters your family once again by stepping out of line ... except this time there will be more children's lives impacted and years of your life wasted striving for your make-believe, romanticized version of what you wanted marriage to be like with a woman who was incompatible with it.

I feel sorry for you and will say a prayer for you tonight, but God only helps those who are willing to help themselves. Good luck.


----------



## Theseus

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> I will quote David,
> 
> "To thee only have I sinned, and have done evil before thee: that thou mayst be justified in thy words and mayst overcome when thou art judged." Psalm 50:6
> Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Book Of Psalms Psalm 50


And who is David speaking to here? He is confessing his sins to God. Now did you even read what I wrote? I even put it in bold: "*The only people she needs to ask forgiveness from are her husband, the OM's wife (if there is one) AND HER GOD."*

So you are actually agreeing with me, not contradicting me. But as a public figure (the king of Israel!) David's situation was a little different anyway, and this whole line of reasoning is moot if the OP is not religious.


----------



## Acabado

Just logged in and read your heartbreaking story.
Please, don't forget to take care of yourself: drink plenty of water, eat properly, try at least.

I'm so sorry man.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Theseus said:


> And who is David speaking to here? He is confessing his sins to God. Now did you even read what I wrote? I even put it in bold: "*The only people she needs to ask forgiveness from are her husband, the OM's wife (if there is one) AND HER GOD."*
> 
> So you are actually agreeing with me, not contradicting me. But as a public figure (the king of Israel!) David's situation was a little different anyway, and this whole line of reasoning is moot if the OP is not religious.


I don't mean to draw a tangent but OP is religious, a christian. He mentioned so in the beginning of the thread. I do agree with you and she _should _seek forgiveness but only God's forgiveness will matter in a religious context.

Exposing has no ill effect, and with reasonable extension of course (not exposing to the garbage man or insurance agent etc), it can grant a very positive affect and ability for the cheater to realize the destructive affect of their actions. Cheaters THRIVE on the secretive and the covert. Exposing the liar and the lies and reveal the truth, it'll come out one way or another.


----------



## Aunt Ava

Theseus said:


> That's called "appeal to authority". And if Dr. Harley actually said this, it's horrible advice. A four year-old can't understand what's going on, and dragging them into the mud with you isn't going to save the marriage.


Dr. Harley definitely says this, and he is definitely the expert. He is responsible for helping to save many hundreds of marriages in his many decades of practice.

A four year can most certainly understand that mommy has a boyfriend and that married people aren't supposed to have boyfriends. Therefore, daddy can't be married to mommy anymore.


----------



## barbados

Theseus said:


> *The only people she needs to ask forgiveness from are her husband, the OM's wife (if there is one) and her God (if she's religious). That's it*.


I'm not going to flame you Thesus. If she only has to apologize to Torn, God and the OMW, then she is simply free to rug sweep this whole thing, and do this to Torn again and again. 

If no one else knows, Torn is alone and isolated with no support moving forward, and the chances of his WW changing become very low.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

BWBill said:


> _And the kicker....he just came out for a week of skiing with a bunch of anesthesia buddies not too long ago and we all stayed together in a cabin, my wife included. I was never apart from my wife during the trip, but still.
> _
> 
> 
> So the two of them walked around all weekend knowing you were a cuckold. Would you do that to someone you loved and respected?
> 
> You also realize there may very well be other current "friends" or acquaintances she hasn't told you about that see you the same way.


Reality can be painful, but it's better than sticking your head in the ground. Yes, BillBW has described what it is.

You are going to be dealing with people that see you as a cuckhold. How the hell do you change that viewpoint? Did you just lost some friends? They are her friends and you are just the cuckhold help?

It's part of the picture and things you have to work out.


----------



## BWBill

From Encarta English Dictionary:

*Cuckold (noun)*
Man whose wife has been unfaithful
- A husband whose wife has been unfaithful to him

*Cuckold (transitive verb)*
- Cuckolded, cuckolding, cuckolds
To be unfaithful to somebody
- To make a cuckold of a husband

*Cuckoldry (noun)*


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> He is not a cuckold. That is one who raises another mans child. I'm sure Torn will step out as "gracefully" (run for the hills) as possible if the child is not his. Maybe a wittol, but not anymore.


The other meaning of cuckhold is he isn't man enough to keep his own woman/wife. That the more dominant bull is required to keep his woman/wife satisfied. He's more than happy to take care of the "bulls" wh0re.


----------



## badbane

TornNBroken said:


> Well, I was gonna reply individually, but since there's so many posts....
> 
> So, first off, she confessed outta the blue. I really had no concerns. We haven't had the perfect marriage, and we'd been working on things like being more affectionate to one another, but overall I thought things were probably a 7.5/10. She has said things for a long time about wanting to "feel the butterflies" again. And we've had long talks about how you go through stages of love and that butterfly/infatuation state usually isn't around >10 yrs into a relationship and how that's not a bad thing....but she's always wanted those feelings that I guess I wasn't creating.
> 
> As far as background with cheating, there was a time in high school when she kissed another guy (a long term friend who was also in a relationship) after we had been dating a year. We had a little hiccup, but moved on pretty quickly...Then, in college (year of dating #4) she ended up kissing a guy from work and we had a couple of rough months. Now this...
> 
> I feel like she likes attention from other guys (which I don't/didn't find all that alarming, cause hey, who doesn't like to be flattered by the opp sex), and I chalked up the two previous instances to curiosity. Since we each have only really had one serious relationship, we've had talks about "I wonder what its like to be with someone else" since we both really had no comparison. We've even said that we wished we met later on in life, cause we knew we belonged together, but just wish we had experienced a bit more before settling down.
> 
> Anyways...the thing that makes this even more difficult is that both of our families live is the same city. We are all very close, our parents are good friends. We have mutual work/social friends, but we spend a lot of time with our siblings and their spouses and kids. I can't imagine telling people about this and then reconciling things. How could I take her to a family event without her thinking that everyone hates her and without me thinking that everyone must think I'm a doormat. Does a successful reconciliation ALWAYS involve telling everyone you know?
> 
> We had been trying to have a kid for a few months, and I was there for all the negative preg tests, and then the eventual positive one.
> 
> Financially, I make about 5 times as much as her, and thats one of my concerns. I worked my but off to go through undergrad and grad school to get a great career in order to provide a certain life for my family. If I were to get a divorce, she would have custody I assume (she's not a deadbeat by any means) and I don't know what kind of life he would have.
> 
> I know a lot of you are like "F her, shes a liar and a cheat" but its hard for me to just feel that way. I love her and it would be incredibly difficult for me to add anymore pain to her. She truly is crushed already by what she did.
> 
> She started going to counseling about 6 weeks ago, because she said she had some free sessions with her company's health plan, and she said she had just been feeling kinda depressed even though she "knew she had no reason to be sad." When she confessed she said to me that she doesn't know why she would do this, but knew the only way she could stop was if she came clean, and had been going to counseling to try and stop.
> 
> 
> FYI, taco bell didn't help the sick stomach feeling


Torn your wife has betrayed you and everyone in your family. Inorder to do that she has had to do a lot of lying. I need to understand that there is a possibility that child may not be yours. You only know what you have been told. Have you gone through her phone, email, text messages, facebook page, in all of the stories I have read there were only two where the cheater revealed over 80% of the truth. There was only one where the whole truth came out and that was only because the loyal Partner got a phone call from the Affair partners significant other and she spelled everything out for him.

You need to do a lot more to protect yourself and your family from being hurt in the future. Also note that most cheaters when cheating , from the stories I have read, don't use condoms. Before you forgive yours spouse you need to know exactly what to forgive her of. Most of the time a PA is preempted by a long or short term physical affair. Unless your wife is getting her thrills of with random men and the One night stand kind of cheater. From everything that I have read you are setting yourself up for a disaster. Please please please don't make the same mistake that many men make by reaching out to her and being more loving, and care about her feelings more. That will just do more damage. 

The most common and effective way to ensure the PA / EA is over is

1) a no contact letter sent to any and all men your wife was involved with.
2) full transparency your wife needs to hand over all text messages, email accounts, as well and tell you the whole truth about the Affair. If she says two that's great but not likely the truth. Somedaydig got the same trickle truth stuff you did. 

3) make a list for thing your wife needs to do in order to show you she wants to stay in the marriage. If she was willing to cheat you know she is willing to lie. So whatever you need your wife to do write it down and give it to her.

4) Start working on yourself. Think about the things you can do to work on yourself for the time being. Make yourself into the person you want to be. Also look up " the 180 " and start practicing that in your life until you feel you don't need to anymore.


----------



## Theseus

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> Exposing has no ill effect,


It certainly has no ill effect - if your intent is divorce.


----------



## workindad

This is a tough thread to read I am truly sorry for the pain you are in. I do advocate telling your in laws and parents. It will be helpful more than you know I understand you're mil is ill but I would still expose. The second man your wife cheated on you with happened when she felt bad about the first if I understood correctly. It could be that if an intervention is not done now that history will repeat itself again And there will be more guys. This will put the unborn child , yours or not, at risk for serious infection from a std as your wife is willing to have unprotected sex during her pregnancy with other men. 

I do not believe that your wife is being honest about the timing or condom use with Peter. If that is his real name. She is playing a gamble that the kid is yours hoping to keep her nice meal ticket I mean you her husband. Sorry to be blunt. 

Also you can be divorced and still be a great dad. Perhaps if the child is yours you can even get custody. Maybe she will not want the baby. 

Did you schedule the test with a lab where people know you? If yes, you have already exposed a little. Yes I am aware of privacy requirements. 

She acted completely normal around the guy she slept with before when you just all stayed in the cabin together that is telling. He must think that you are a complete joke. Again sorry to be blunt. 

Good luck. If I were you I would also be hoping that the kid was not mine. 
Wd
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Theseus

barbados said:


> I'm not going to flame you Thesus. If she only has to apologize to Torn, God and the OMW, then she is simply free to rug sweep this whole thing, and do this to Torn again and again.


I disagree. If her husband can't stop it, then how is her parents supposed to? If she's going to cheat "again and again", then her parents and her in-laws aren't going to stop her. They certainly don't keep day to day tabs on her like her husband does.



> If no one else knows, Torn is alone and isolated with no support moving forward, and the chances of his WW changing become very low.


That makes more sense, and I certainly recommend that Torn share this with any trusted friend or family member that would help him get through it. But that's different than exposing it to everyone around just to drag them into it.

But the idea of the WS confessing in front of her parents and in-laws like some kind of public ritual is ridicuous. Why not brand a scarlet "*A*" on her forehead and be done with it?


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

BWBill said:


> From Encarta English Dictionary:
> 
> *Cuckold (noun)*
> Man whose wife has been unfaithful
> - A husband whose wife has been unfaithful to him
> 
> *Cuckold (transitive verb)*
> - Cuckolded, cuckolding, cuckolds
> To be unfaithful to somebody
> - To make a cuckold of a husband
> 
> *Cuckoldry (noun)*


Thanks for the follow up, I stand corrected.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Theseus said:


> I disagree. If her husband can't stop it, then how is her parents supposed to? If she's going to cheat "again and again", then her parents and her in-laws aren't going to stop her. They certainly don't keep day to day tabs on her like her husband does.
> 
> 
> 
> That makes more sense, and I certainly recommend that Torn share this with any trusted friend or family member that would help him get through it. But that's different than exposing it to everyone around just to drag them into it.
> 
> But the idea of the WS confessing in front of her parents and in-laws like some kind of public ritual is ridicuous. Why not brand a scarlet "*A*" on her forehead and be done with it?


This exposure is not of a 'public ritual' you speak of or of the sort of going up to the podium and confessing to the congregation. You are taking the point out of context.


----------



## just got it 55

TornNBroken said:


> So if I don't put out a "**** me" vibe to other women, I wasn't "man enough" for my wife? I have plenty of female friends and I don't think I'd have a problem getting another women if we split up. I'm 29, 6'3", in good shape, have a good job and a great sense of humor.


Thats the ticket


----------



## jim123

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, but right now it doesn't matter to me whose fault things are. I know that this is all a result of her decisions, and that any future pain and suffering as on her. But that doesn't make it any easier. That doesn't help me at all. I still love her, she's the only person I've truly loved and shared myself with. So regardless of what she's done, I cant sit there and say, well F her, I hope she suffers for what she's done. I just can't. That's not me.


You caught her in a major lie. Liars forget the lies if you ask them a lot of questions to which they can tell the truth to or ask in another way.

The last question you asked if it could be OM's she said I had already ovulated and he pulled out but I guess it is possible. But if it start weeks after P it would not be possible nor would she have ovulated. She forgot the lie and answer more of the truth.

This is not a question that she would not know the answer to if she told the truth before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

DaddyLongShanks said:


> The other meaning of cuckhold is he isn't man enough to keep his own woman/wife. That the more dominant bull is required to keep his woman/wife satisfied. He's more than happy to take care of the "bulls" wh0re.


My original idea was that a cuckoo bird lays an egg and another bird raises it as its own. :scratchhead:


----------



## JCD

Theseus said:


> But the idea of the WS confessing in front of her parents and in-laws like some kind of public ritual is ridicuous. Why not brand a scarlet "*A*" on her forehead and be done with it?


Since we are playing the logical fallacy game, this one is oversimplification and exaggeration.

The POINT, which you are ignoring is that his wife has very much come to terms with being a disappointment to her husband. She's rationalized and justified it. She cares only in so much as he's discovered it.

By exposing it to (here, let me make a few adjustments here) *to specific and interested parties*, she faces losing her reputation in front of people she _may_ care about more than her husband.

The grandparents all have a vested interest in a) keeping the marriage intact and b) having a genetic line through the baby (more his parents than hers. After all, it's HER baby regardless).

The fact that she has to be accountable to not one person but to multiple people will make her lies and evasions more difficult. "Oh...that's funny. Marlene told me she was at Target that day and she didn't mention you being there. So...want to try again?" Having to keep her story consistant to multiple people through multiple tellings...well...it's exhausting and nerve wracking, PARTICULARLY if they know enough to compare notes and not take her word for granted. *But they have to know to look!*

Pain in instructive. So far, he's the only one being educated here.

The parents should know. Friends? Less so. Siblings? Maybe...

The other thing is he will be treating her like waste for a while. It's natural. And HE, the victim will get hassled and blamed for 'being mean to his wife and unborn baby' if he hides this from all and sundry. So he gets to suffer MORE!

That is not fair and not right.


----------



## mrtickle

Just read this truly horrific thread. TAM always surprises me - I come on here and see a thread and read through with the hundreds of posts and the rapid-fire nature of the responses, only to track back and realise that the thread is only a day or two old. Crazy. I also always feel sorry for myself and think my situation is unique and awful, to then read some really heartbreaking stuff which makes me realise just how often this sort of thing happens, to varying degrees. That in itself makes me rather sad. Anyway....

Torn - sorry to hear you are going through this. 

I'm not religious in the slightest, but if ever there was a time for falling back on whatever faith you have then this is it and if it works for you in terms of keeping strong, that's great.

I truly hope that you find out the kid is yours, and in time you can rebuild your relationship to a point where you can regain trust and move forward as a family.


----------



## JCD

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, but right now it doesn't matter to me whose fault things are. I know that this is all a result of her decisions, and that any future pain and suffering as on her. But that doesn't make it any easier. That doesn't help me at all. I still love her, she's the only person I've truly loved and shared myself with. So regardless of what she's done, I cant sit there and say, well F her, I hope she suffers for what she's done. I just can't. That's not me.


You need to seperate this.

First, it is against your principles to try and destroy her life. We get that. No one should be asking you to do that. You shouldn't make things *worse!*

But your Christian principles also embrace 'telling the truth in love'.

She has made horrible consequence prone decisions which have not only hurt her, but hurt her baby, her family, your family and you. How can you ask them to operate in ignorance about this? How can they help, support or heal her? How do you unfairly accept the opprobium that will come your way if you leave her...or are even cold and distant to her (and frankly, cold and distant is the LEAST she deserves).

I am a big advocate of 'grace'. This is undeserved forgiveness. According to Christian doctrine, that is what Christ did for us. BUT...there is a caveat "Go forth and sin no more". So if you forgive this woman, one needs to embrace Christ's principles as well. He will forgive murder...but he does not want you to continue to indulge in murder.

She needs to own her bad behavior, and not in the absolute minimum way possible. She should personally and by her own choice own up to her actions to her parents at least. Confession is good for the soul. Her soul needs an exorcise (sic) program.


----------



## just got it 55

TornNBroken said:


> What the hell am I supposed to say? What else do I need to know from her?


You need the full truth as the truth will always be. So you can process and heal

Thats Why


----------



## PBear

Btw, as a Christian, have you thought about talking to your pastor/church leader? Not as a form of exposing your wife, but as someone who you can speak to confidentially, and whose advice you can trust.

C


----------



## Theseus

JCD said:


> By exposing it to (here, let me make a few adjustments here) *to specific and interested parties*, she faces losing her reputation in front of people she _may_ care about more than her husband.


Pardon me for being confused but how does that save her reputation? Wouldn't forcing her to expose her affair to the whole family cause her to *lose* her reputation instead?

At some point you have to live with the rest of your family again, and not everyone is forgiving. Moreover, I'm pretty certain that most extended family members DON'T WANT to be dragged into the situation in the first place. I certainly wouldn't.




> The grandparents all have a vested interest in a) keeping the marriage intact


That is family specific. Many of them will deliberately set out to sabotage reconciliation once they hear about this.



> The fact that she has to be accountable to not one person but to multiple people will make her lies and evasions more difficult. "Oh...that's funny. Marlene told me she was at Target that day and she didn't mention you being there. So...want to try again?" Having to keep her story consistant to multiple people through multiple tellings...well...it's exhausting and nerve wracking, PARTICULARLY if they know enough to compare notes and not take her word for granted. *But they have to know to look!*



I certainly understand your reasoning here, but let's be realistic. If the husband needs the parents, in-laws, siblings, etc to keep tabs on his wife *then that means trust is impossible and marriage is already over*. I wouldn't want my wife to be faithful to me because she has a gun to her head, I want her to do it because she wants to.

I know some people think "sex addiction" is the same as alcoholism, and you need other people watching you to get over it. But I think that's bunk. If she wants to be faithful, she will. There is no physical addiction to sex with others that will give her physical withdrawal symptoms.



> The other thing is he will be treating her like waste for a while. It's natural. And HE, the victim will get hassled and blamed for 'being mean to his wife and unborn baby' if he hides this from all and sundry. So he gets to suffer MORE!
> 
> That is not fair and not right.


I understand what you are saying, but the husband can simply tell them that something terrible has happened, and he and his wife need to work through it. The details simply aren't their business. If they already know and trust him then they aren't going to pile on him for imagined offenses.


----------



## SomedayDig

Aunt Ava said:


> Dr. Harley recommends exposing affairs. Even to children as young as four years old. He is an expert in the field.


"Dr." Harley is a crack. Expose to children my a$$. This is also the "Dr." who recommends the betrayed spouse work their ass off to make themselves attractive to the wayward.

Sorry. I read one chapter of his book and tossed it.

Exposure, as has been said is to kill the affair. Children, even teens, do NOT need to be involved in adult issues such as infidelity. Ever.


----------



## JCD

Theseus said:


> Pardon me for being confused but how does that save her reputation? Wouldn't forcing her to expose her affair to the whole family cause her to *lose* her reputation instead?


I am old fashioned. The POINT of a reputation is that you get treated and judged *as you acted* not as you *wish to appear*. But I am also big into forgiveness. She IS a cheating spouse now. She doesn't have to STAY that way. I am not advocating putting up a billboard near her work. I am saying that she doesn't get to pretent to be Sweet Polly Purebread to mom and dad after acting like Round Heeled Sally to his co-workers and strangers.

Own your sh*t.



> At some point you have to live with the rest of your family again, and not everyone is forgiving. Moreover, I'm pretty certain that most extended family members DON'T WANT to be dragged into the situation in the first place. I certainly wouldn't.


I note you added 'extended' to again attempt to make my point irrelevant. Stay on topic. PARENTS and maybe SIBLINGS. Aunt Judy need not know...until the divorce.

If her parents and siblings can't forgive her...well...that's on them.




> That is family specific. Many of them will deliberately set out to sabotage reconciliation once they hear about this.


Then there is more issues here than just her infidelity. But according to the OP, this is NOT the case with their parents. Stay on point.



> I certainly understand your reasoning here, but let's be realistic. If the husband needs the parents, in-laws, siblings, etc to keep tabs on his wife *then that means trust is impossible and marriage is already over*. I wouldn't want my wife to be faithful to me because she has a gun to her head, I want her to do it because she wants to.


Actions become habit forming. That sweet rush of 'new love'...or at least 'new penis' might need a bit more than just hubby shaking his finger at her. Why should he make it easy for her to continue to cheat? The more inhibitions the better. Please note I did NOT say anything about tattoos, GPS, or PI's. She will know if she slips again, she will have disappointed not only her husband but a good number of other people.



> I know some people think "sex addiction" is the same as alcoholism, and you need other people watching you to get over it. But I think that's bunk. If she wants to be faithful, she will. There is no physical addiction to sex with others that will give her physical withdrawal symptoms.


Habits of the mind.



> I understand what you are saying, but the husband can simply tell them that something terrible has happened, and he and his wife need to work through it. The details simply aren't their business. If they already know and trust him then they aren't going to pile on him for imagined offenses.


Yeah....like they aren't going to press for details both from him and her. She's already a liar. So WHEN the in-laws on both sides press, she may very well go into self preservation mode and blacken his name to all and sundry...hating herself while she does it, no doubt, but she NEEDS their love and support. She has a BABY. At least that's how she will rationalize it.

This short circuits all that. He can keep it simple "She cheated." He can hold off on telling them how many MANY times she was. And the fact that the baby might be a cuckoo...until he knows for sure.

But just 'we have a deep problem' means they will likely blame him, trust be damned.


----------



## bfree

Why are some so focused on get reputation? Shouldn't reputation be built on a foundation of truth? The thought that keeps ringing in my head is when a serial killer is caught and the neighbors always say "but he was such a nice young man." There is a reason that truth is so revered.


----------



## LetDownNTX

Just read all of the posts and have to say I feel sick and so very sad for you! What a horrible situation. You only hit the tip of the iceberg before she answered all your questions...WOW!

You should ask yourself this...will you ever trust her again? Honestly think about how hard it will be to always question her every action for the rest of your life. Staying with her is a life sentence. I get not wanting to leave your child. Sadly I hope its not yours!


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## See_Listen_Love

Sorry for you OP,

I hope people don't post so much, you need some rest and think over some of the advice.


----------



## Theseus

JCD said:


> Yeah....like they aren't going to press for details both from him and her. She's already a liar. So WHEN the in-laws on both sides press, she may very well go into self preservation mode and blacken his name to all and sundry...hating herself while she does it, no doubt, but she NEEDS their love and support. She has a BABY. At least that's how she will rationalize it.


Well now you are changing the scenario. You said "stay on point", remember?

Yes, I agree, if she started doing that then all bets should be off. In the husband's position would tell everyone what happened, maybe even announce it on Facebook. But that's because the marriage would be destroyed and reconciliation impossible at that point. Here we are talking about a situation where people are trying to rebuild their lives (so far). 

Anyway, she could still lie about what happened even if the husband tells everyone about the affair anyway, so your point is moot either way.


----------



## Theseus

bfree said:


> Why are some so focused on get reputation? Shouldn't reputation be built on a foundation of truth?


But who is this truth for? I think the a woman's sexual reputation should be generally limited to her husband's knowledge. Parents and in-laws don't have any business here.


----------



## JCD

Theseus said:


> Well now you are changing the scenario. You said "stay on point", remember?
> 
> Yes, I agree, if she started doing that then all bets should be off. In the husband's position would tell everyone what happened, maybe even announce it on Facebook. But that's because the marriage would be destroyed and reconciliation impossible at that point. Here we are talking about a situation where people are trying to rebuild their lives (so far).
> 
> Anyway, she could still lie about what happened even if the husband tells everyone about the affair anyway, so your point is moot either way.


Not really. I am looking forward, but fair enough.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. It cleans away the dreck. But in your scenario, where he *trusts a cheater* and let's her get her last licks in, he's stuck playing catch up...again. First impressions and what not.

OP, if you decide not to expose for now, keep copies of this stuff...just in case. This could get ugly.


----------



## JCD

Theseus said:


> But who is this truth for? I think the a woman's sexual reputation should be generally limited to her husband's knowledge. Parents and in-laws don't have any business here.


This goes beyond sex. It goes to honesty, truthfullness and one's ability to keep promises.

Supposedly, she loves the hell out of this guy...and yet could still carve his heart out with a spoon.

That is important information about her character...or at least her character at that particular moment...oh...did I say moment? I meant THE MULTIPLE TIMES SHE INDULGED. You know...when she allowed herself to be passed around like a joint as Spring Break.

Now, I will grant you that if this was a single occurance, a drunken ONS that your POV might have some validity.

This is not the case here. Four times with Mr. Magic Hands. Twice when her husband was working his ass off in Florida.

Kissing (or worse) on two other occasions.

Did her parents know about any of this? Should they?

So far, secrecy hasn't improved her character at all. Why not try something different?


----------



## Wiserforit

Remember how your gut told you something was wrong at the time of these infidelities?

Use this to review the past. Your gut instincts are almost never wrong. Right now your gut says the story with Peter is wrong. It surely is.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Theseus said:


> Pardon me for being confused but how does that save her reputation? Wouldn't forcing her to expose her affair to the whole family cause her to *lose* her reputation instead?
> 
> At some point you have to live with the rest of your family again, and not everyone is forgiving. Moreover, I'm pretty certain that most extended family members DON'T WANT to be dragged into the situation in the first place. I certainly wouldn't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is family specific. Many of them will deliberately set out to sabotage reconciliation once they hear about this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly understand your reasoning here, but let's be realistic. If the husband needs the parents, in-laws, siblings, etc to keep tabs on his wife *then that means trust is impossible and marriage is already over*. I wouldn't want my wife to be faithful to me because she has a gun to her head, I want her to do it because she wants to.
> 
> I know some people think "sex addiction" is the same as alcoholism, and you need other people watching you to get over it. But I think that's bunk. If she wants to be faithful, she will. There is no physical addiction to sex with others that will give her physical withdrawal symptoms.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand what you are saying, but the husband can simply tell them that something terrible has happened, and he and his wife need to work through it. The details simply aren't their business. If they already know and trust him then they aren't going to pile on him for imagined offenses.



Theseus, no one is forcing her to expose. The BS is the one who exposes. One of the reasons the WS do not expose (and if they do, they will with the presence of the BS) is because they minimize, justify, blame shift and, sugar coat everything and paint a masterpiece of the BS, the demon the BS truly is!

No one is recommending that with exposure, the BS should ask for everyone to PITCH IN and keep tabs on her. Please feel free to stick around and read plenty more threads in this section.

I agree with you that details are simply not important so a general "My wife has cheated on me and lied to me since the beginning of our marriage and I am waiting on DNA results to see if the child she is carrying is truly mine."


----------



## tom67

"My wife has cheated on me and lied to me since the beginning of our marriage and I am waiting on DNA results to see if the child she is carrying is truly mine." Yep I would just leave it at that. I mean people are going to ask if you kick her out of the house.


----------



## just got it 55

TornNBroken said:


> I just set up an appt for a prenatal paternity test on Monday and told her she needs to be there. She had been texting me nonstop for about 5 minutes with promise after promise about how things would be better and how every issue she ever had with me was so trivial and would never be an issue again.


So what !!!!


----------



## just got it 55

bfree said:


> I hate to say it torn but he is right. I understand you are in shock but you have to start the process right now. Just remember that if you file for divorce you can always change your mind. And even if you actually do divorce you can always remarry. But if you do nothing your choices will be made for you and it will not be to your benefit.


Re marry with an ironclad pre nup


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Actions speak louder than words, torn.

All these promises are just words, just as the promise she accepted, the vows she made with you, obviously her actions say otherwise.


----------



## WyshIknew

I'm a little confused here, is this thread for *giving advice to TornNBroken* or arguing the rights and wrongs of exposure?

I think the point has been made for both options, don't you?


----------



## TornNBroken

So my boss just let me know that I can take all the time off of work I need until I get things figured out....so that's good.

My wife asked if she could tell her boss (female) and talk with her as her husband cheated and is wanting a divorce, while she wants to save the marriage. I said that I thought that seemed okay. A little exposure, and then I know she can at least talk with somebody and stop sending me texts to add to my confusion.

I'm trying to get some time with my pastor to talk.


----------



## TornNBroken

WyshIknew said:


> I'm a little confused here, is this thread for *giving advice to TornNBroken* or arguing the rights and wrongs of exposure?
> 
> I think the point has been made for both options, don't you?


Its all helpful, as long as it doesn't breakdown into a big argument...


----------



## just got it 55

TornNBroken said:


> No, not weird. At least with this guy, it sounds like a drunken night of regret, that I can at least separate somewhat from all the other encounters a bit (whether that's healthy or not, i dunno). But this guy was always all over other girls in my class, especially at drunken parties, he had forced himself on other girls that I know of. My wife has always been disgusted with him, at least to my face. And we had some talks during that week about how sad his life was and how he was still a creep and an alcoholic (there were other girls with us who he was creeping on).


More denial


----------



## Link182

TNB,

As men we don't often express this sentiment, but I am sorry you are here and my heart breaks for you. Although it's been close to a year and a half since the day I was in your shoes, I remember that debilitating pain like it was yesterday. I would not presume to tell you more than one thing here, because it's the opposite of what I did, so please listen.

Follow the advice you get here, it may be the opposite of your instincts, it may seem cruel and harsh to a woman you still have a loving image of. But what you are hearing is truth. Everything you can imagine telling yourself that your wife is not capable of, she is. Mine was, plus some.

Someday I may write the entirety of my story, as a self help guide of what not to do unless you just really like hurting. But if you want this to be over, if you want closure, follow what you are being told. I have never looked back to see if someone told me what I am telling you and some others have earlier. But I wish I had listened...

I will pray for you brother.

Peace


----------



## just got it 55

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, but right now it doesn't matter to me whose fault things are. I know that this is all a result of her decisions, and that any future pain and suffering as on her. But that doesn't make it any easier. That doesn't help me at all. I still love her, she's the only person I've truly loved and shared myself with. So regardless of what she's done, I cant sit there and say, well F her, I hope she suffers for what she's done. I just can't. That's not me.


You may be saying that someday


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Torn, either way, focus on yourself. Maintain your health, your productivity and take your time to think through every move you are going to make. The time will come for you to make a decision in moving forward with your W or parting ways so as of right now do not rush to anything and just wait on the dna test and give yourself enough time to plan and think through every scenario before you make a decision. Think in terms of 5, 10, 15 years into the future....


----------



## just got it 55

I have posted this before

Sorry my brother that you are hear It seems al the advice given to you was counterintuitive so it was hard to follow the advice. As one expert said “if the captain of the Titanic actually increased the ships speed they would have been able to avoid the iceberg”.
So given what you know now be aware that she is gone. For your future my young friend, work on your level of self-esteem. Raise it to the point of the apex .Then never hold anybody in a level higher than yours with the exception of your parents.


----------



## MattMatt

TornNBroken said:


> Is this true? Is there ANYONE here that didn't find out more after an initial confession?.....anyone who got the whole story upfront?
> 
> There's gotta be some spouse who had one messed up night, realized they F-ed up and apologized...right? No trickle-truth.


I got all I needed to know from day one. Well, that's not strictly true. From before day one. As my wife -bless her!- told me in advance that she was going to have an affair.

And we reconciled and are still together.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

tom67 said:


> Sorry Torn to be blunt if the baby isn't yours she doesn't want to be a single mom/adultress plus like you said you make great money thus you could be the beta provider. Anyway get some rest if you can bro.


:iagree:

Odds are the kid is not yours.

Think about it - you and her have been trying to conceive for how long? Then all of a sudden she gets pregnant and, instead of happily preparing for the birth of her child, she goes and fook another man?

Does this make any sense?

I think she got pregnant by the OM and he bailed. Also, her confession, like someone else mentioned, is a preemptive strike because OM's wife/GF found out and was going to spill the beans.


----------



## SadSamIAm

You really have no option but to file for divorce. It has to be done. She has to know that you won't tolerate her cheating. 

If you don't, you will never be able to trust her. When she has a weak moment she will cheat again because she knows you will forgive her.

The only way to reconcile and be able to live normally is to divorce. She will need to fight for you. After a month or two, you can start again (if she shows remorse and does the work). Then she will know that a weak moment won't be tolerated. She will know what is required to stay married to you. And most of all, you will know that she knows. It will make it easier for you to trust her. 

This will give you time to work on yourself and to figure out what you really want.

My advice! But if the baby isn't yours..... Walk away.


----------



## Chaparral

Conerning exposure. You need to check the place where he works and find out if there really someone there with that name. I would talk to him, only to make sure she is not making it up, and then expose him to the owner along with a threat to sue the business. If its new they will not want the publicity. This is massage guy right?


----------



## SomedayDig

Torn...everyone is gonna tell you what to do. They're gonna tell you to do that because that is what worked for them or that's what they wished they'd done when the other didn't work out or that's what "they" say should be done.

Don't buy it.

Your situation is yours. I don't really care if you reconcile or divorce. That's your bag to carry.

At this point and time the only thing I would counsel is to simply take care of YOU. No rash decisions. Hell, no decisions about major sh-t for at least 2 weeks.

In the meantime, try to eat and drink plenty of water. Hit the gym to burn off the extra sh-t inside of you. I bought a heavy bag for my garage. I can't tell you how much that bag and I have talked about. 

Read all of the posts here. Twice if need be. Some you may agree with and others you might not. But don't ever close your mind.


----------



## workindad

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Odds are the kid is not yours.
> 
> Think about it - you and her have been trying to conceive for how long? Then all of a sudden she gets pregnant and, instead of happily preparing for the birth of her child, she goes and fook another man?
> 
> Does this make any sense?
> 
> I think she got pregnant by the OM and he bailed. Also, her confession, like someone else mentioned, is a preemptive strike because OM's wife/GF found out and was going to spill the beans.




Unfortunately, I agree with this.. I think CM summed it very well.

Good Luck
WD


----------



## Machiavelli

BWBill said:


> From Encarta English Dictionary:
> 
> *Cuckold (noun)*
> Man whose wife has been unfaithful
> - A husband whose wife has been unfaithful to him
> 
> *Cuckold (transitive verb)*
> - Cuckolded, cuckolding, cuckolds
> To be unfaithful to somebody
> - To make a cuckold of a husband
> 
> *Cuckoldry (noun)*


Cuckold, in the original meaning, is a man who is unknowingly raising the child of his wife's paramour as his own. The word comes from the Common Cuckoo, a brood parasite species, which lays its eggs in the nests of other birds to be raised by them. As we see here:








So Snatch is quite correct with regard to the original meaning of the word.

Over the centuries it has expanded to include any husband whose wife is committing adultery without the husband's knowledge.

A wittol is a husband who knows of and tolerates or encourages his wife's adultery.


----------



## SadSamIAm

SomedayDig said:


> Torn...everyone is gonna tell you what to do. They're gonna tell you to do that because that is what worked for them or that's what they wished they'd done when the other didn't work out or that's what "they" say should be done.
> 
> Don't buy it.
> 
> Your situation is yours. I don't really care if you reconcile or divorce. That's your bag to carry.
> 
> At this point and time the only thing I would counsel is to simply take care of YOU. No rash decisions. Hell, no decisions about major sh-t for at least 2 weeks.
> 
> In the meantime, try to eat and drink plenty of water. Hit the gym to burn off the extra sh-t inside of you. I bought a heavy bag for my garage. I can't tell you how much that bag and I have talked about.
> 
> Read all of the posts here. Twice if need be. Some you may agree with and others you might not. But don't ever close your mind.


I don't agree with this. I think nice guys need to be told what to do. 

Nice guys will tell the cheating spouse how great they are together. Nice guys will remind them of the wonderful memories. Nice guys will write them poetry about true love. Nice guys will try to use feelings to get them to love them and want them.

I know, because I was a nice guy.

Being nice at this point doesn't work and is not attractive.


----------



## SomedayDig

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't agree with this. I think nice guys need to be told what to do.
> 
> Nice guys will tell the cheating spouse how great they are together. Nice guys will remind them of the wonderful memories. Nice guys will write them poetry about true love. Nice guys will try to use feelings to get them to love them and want them.
> 
> I know, because I was a nice guy.
> 
> Being nice at this point doesn't work and is not attractive.


Yeah...but I ain't a nice guy and it worked for me. Not every chapter in the book is gonna get by the editor.


----------



## weightlifter

Now the pep talk that does not seem like one. The worst happened. She banged 5 more guys and the kid ain't yours. You divorce. I know it seems like you will never trust again but the averages say otherwise. 

Understand that you have taken two devastating simultaneous hits one to the ego, the other to the heart.

The script afterward. Timing varies fwiw

5 weeks after filing you will meet a girl at a house party. You will chat her up (after you check her for a ring). She will offer zero resistance. Go with it. After you fvck her silly your ego which was crushed to zero is now at about 60 percent. You will feel like a new man.

2 weeks later it will happen again and you ego will be back to 90 percent. With the ego largely healed you heart will start coming back much faster.

3 months later you will meet a woman somewhere else. You will date 3 times and nothing will happen.

Insert a few smallish relationships here and there.

2 years from now you will be dating mrs TNB2.

Stick around. This place is grim. It will also make you much much stronger.

Btw you probably don't notice just how much women flirt with you. Until a female coworker pointed it out, I had no idea I was being flirted with... And I am not mr awesome. No I don't reciprocate. I get nothing from 25 year olds. 35 to40 year olds... Tons. I'm mid 40s btw.

You are 6 ft 3 and make 6 bills. There is high demand for males like you.

Mark this in your calendar and if you D come back in two years and tell me how right I was today.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't agree with this. I think nice guys need to be told what to do.
> 
> Nice guys will tell the cheating spouse how great they are together. Nice guys will remind them of the wonderful memories. Nice guys will write them poetry about true love. Nice guys will try to use feelings to get them to love them and want them.
> 
> I know, because I was a nice guy.
> 
> Being nice at this point doesn't work and is not attractive.


Your going to have to add in some "nice" to someone who is with you for the right reasons. If they are cheating, you almost certainly have to drop them. Recovery is a low rate of success, the cheater is usually further rewarded and the betrayed gives up more of their self respect and confidence.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

tom67 said:


> If women aren't hitting on you, you lose your sex rank. It all has to do with their limbic brain. I am surprised though with the money you make that should quasi help that anyway others will explain better.


They may not know that he makes phat bank.


----------



## JCD

weightlifter said:


> Now the pep talk that does not seem like one. The worst happened. She banged 5 more guys and the kid ain't yours. You divorce. I know it seems like you will never trust again but the averages say otherwise.
> 
> Understand that you have taken two devastating simultaneous hits one to the ego, the other to the heart.
> 
> The script afterward. Timing varies fwiw
> 
> 5 weeks after filing you will meet a girl at a house party. You will chat her up (after you check her for a ring). She will offer zero resistance. Go with it. After you fvck her silly your ego which was crushed to zero is now at about 60 percent. You will feel like a new man.
> 
> 2 weeks later it will happen again and you ego will be back to 90 percent. With the ego largely healed you heart will start coming back much faster.
> 
> 3 months later you will meet a woman somewhere else. You will date 3 times and nothing will happen.
> 
> Insert a few smallish relationships here and there.
> 
> 2 years from now you will be dating mrs TNB2.
> 
> Stick around. This place is grim. It will also make you much much stronger.
> 
> Btw you probably don't notice just how much women flirt with you. Until a female coworker pointed it out, I had no idea I was being flirted with... And I am not mr awesome. No I don't reciprocate. I get nothing from 25 year olds. 35 to40 year olds... Tons. I'm mid 40s btw.
> 
> You are 6 ft 3 and make 6 bills. There is high demand for males like you.
> 
> Mark this in your calendar and if you D come back in two years and tell me how right I was today.



Um...he's a principled Christian. He is unlikely to engage in premarital sex (as opposed to UNprincipled Christian such as...ahem...his wife who doesn't seem to let those principles bother her terribly much)

But he might want to open his eyes to possibilities.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Torn, are you ok?


----------



## TornNBroken

Yeah. Its weird, I don't really feel anything tonight. Just watched a BBall game and had some dinner...no real emotions. Maybe I'm all cried out for the day. Is this normal?...having periods of being just being numb/not caring/i dunno what I'm feeling


----------



## JCD

Totally normal.


----------



## carpenoctem

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah. Its weird, I don't really feel anything tonight. Just watched a BBall game and had some dinner...no real emotions. Maybe I'm all cried out for the day. Is this normal?...having periods of being just being numb/not caring/i dunno what I'm feeling





Torn:

That's the calm before the storm.

*The anger stage is about to hit you.* I presume.

And she NEEDS to experience that anger, and comprehend the hurt and desperation behind it.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Torn:
> 
> That's the calm before the storm.
> 
> *The anger stage is about to hit you.* I presume.
> 
> And she NEEDS to experience that anger, and comprehend the hurt and desperation behind it.


No emotions can last for years.

Pain, can last for years.

Stress, will last for years.

A clean cut and looking forward to a new future yields least pain.

I just want you to make good decisions and use the information you've been provided to properly handle your situation.


----------



## TornNBroken

DaddyLongShanks said:


> I just want you to make good decisions and use the information you've been provided to properly handle your situation.


I kinda feel like everyone just wants me to divorce her before the smoke even clears...


----------



## SalvageMyMarriage

TornNBroken said:


> So here's my situation,
> 
> My wife of nearly six years just told me that she has been cheating on my for the last two months, starting in late February. March 4th we found out she was 5 weeks pregnant (so definitely mine......I think???).....
> 
> I keep going back and forth between feelings of despair and thinking "*How can I ever love her again?*" to hopefulness because I read stories of people who's marriage is supposedly better after an affair.
> 
> Most of the time though I feel like *I would leave her if not for the baby*. I mean, that's MY KID (our first)......
> 
> * If I leave my wife, it will ruin her*. She is so ashamed of what she's done and she is SOOOOO sorry. I can't imagine her having to face our families and friends and admit to her cheating on me as we were trying/were newly pregnant. She'd be humiliated and crushed....and she already has self image/self esteem issues....
> 
> I DO love her, I always have. We were high school sweethearts and have been together for over 12 years now. If I knew that we could get back to a loving marriage and I could forgive her, then I should try for that in order to provide the right life for my kid....but I'm so torn, because if there were no kid, I think I'd be gone, so then I feel like I'm justifying doing the "wrong" thing just because of a child.
> 
> I don't know what to do, I'm sorry this is so long. Where do I go from here?......


I'm sorry to hear about your story, TornNBroken.
Have you decided how you should handle it? A couple of advice here and hope it will be useful for you..

1. Do you still want to be with her?
You mentioned "how can I ever love her again?". But putting love aside, do you still want to be with her? Do you still see a future with her to build a family together? Stop making decisions on whether to stay in this marriage because of the fact that she is having your first baby or it will ruin/humiliate her if you leave her. All these considerations will only impair your decision. If you decided to stay on based on these considerations, your marriage won't last since you did not decide based on what you really want and can accept! Ask yourself truthfully if you want to continue to build a family with her? Seems like you still care for her and can't bear making her upset.. If you really want to make this marriage work, forgive her for the infidelity.

2. Can you continue trusting her?
Ok, so you have decided to make this marriage work. After forgiving her, commit yourself to continue trusting her and never doubt her in future. Even if you stay on in the relationship but if you keep having doubts about her every now and then, the marriage journey will be a torturous one. 

So until you can really decide that you still want to be with her and can continue trusting her, please don't force yourself to stay on in the marriage.

Wish you all the best!

And oh, if you really can't decide, seek professional help. If not a marriage counsellor, there are also a lot of great online programs/ebooks out there to guide distress couples to rebuild their marriages. 

Good Luck!


----------



## weightlifter

Random poon has AMAZING affects on a betrayed mans ego. STUNNING actually. we see that script alot here for those who hang around afterward.

If he does he does, if not. Shrug.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah. Its weird, I don't really feel anything tonight. Just watched a BBall game and had some dinner...no real emotions. Maybe I'm all cried out for the day. Is this normal?...having periods of being just being numb/not caring/i dunno what I'm feeling


I agree I think that is normal. That is a whole lot of anxiety and adrenaline hitting you at once. Once that passes there is this weird "calmness" that happens. I'm sure it is both psychological and physical.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

weightlifter said:


> Random poon has AMAZING affects on a betrayed mans ego. STUNNING actually. we see that script alot here for those who hang around afterward.
> 
> If he does he does, if not. Shrug.


. 

Man, that made me think of my own situation ... except I haven't dated in 23 years. I don't think I would know what to do. Fortunately, Torn is 29, tall and athletic ... I'm athletic but I'm also 5'10" (and 3/4, lol) and 45 ... I don't think he'll have any problems in that department.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> I kinda feel like everyone just wants me to divorce her before the smoke even clears...


I don't think that is true for everyone and it is especially not true if the baby is yours. There is a psychology behind filing for divorce. The psychology is that you have to be willing to let her go in order to get her back. Divorce is a demonstrable message that you are willing to let her go; it goes beyond words. 

I for one hope that you can reconcile but I do believe that filing for divorce sends the correct message. The message is that this behavior is completely unacceptable and will not be tolerated under any circumstances. It says that there are very real consequences for your actions and that she WILL lose you. This is not a one-time mistake. This is a pattern of behavior. That speaks to her character. Normally, despite her words and tears, a person needs to experience real loss before they genuinely take the responsibility to change their life.

Remember that a divorce filing is not a divorce. It is not a divorce until it is finalized. In my state, I could have a divorce filing sitting out there for a year and do nothing. I can also apply for extensions and keep it going for quite a long time. You still have the opportunity to reconcile even if you file the divorce. In fact, even if a divorce is finalized, there is no rule that says you cannot reconcile and begin dating her again after the divorce.

If you read all the infidelity stories here, you will see a lot of people who were basically swindled into false reconciliation. Tears and begging and promises to change made them decide to go straight into reconciliation without any consequences for the wayward spouse. These reconciliations almost never work in the long run and the wayward spouse repeats the behavior sometime down the road ... or never ends it, just brings it underground.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> I kinda feel like everyone just wants me to divorce her before the smoke even clears...


Everybody wants to save you the trouble of spending years in torture and agony trying to work past it, and then wind up here again. She lied to you about wondering about sex with other men, she'd already done lots of that and she will again.

Here's why: your wife is addicted to the PEA crack-high that comes from wild, casual sex with strangers. She's confessed to 3 or 4, but you've been apart for a few times and she's had an open ball field, so to speak. But you being away is not enough, she does strangers she meets while transacting business while you're in town. She's minimizing, so factor a 5 and you're suddenly up to 20 OMs. It's not too far fetched. 

So, lets say you can get past that, then the question becomes can she get past it? On the one hand, your SMV is lowered in her eyes subconsciously, because you took her back. Her cortex is happy and grateful, but it ain't the cortex that controls the pvssy, it's the limbic brain, and her limbic brain is going to decide that it's you that are the pvssy for taking her back. So then you're back to her needing a dose of "bad boy," so put her back on schedule for the next round of the 4-7 year itch. It will happen.

This happens no matter whose baby she's packing. Now suppose the kid is the OM's, there is no way you're going to talk her into killing the kid. She's going to want to keep that kid and if you do end up divorcing, she'll keep that kid and find another good decent Christian guy AKA "beta-provider sap" who will support that kid and raise him for her. Her limbic wanted to have that guy's kid, because she ranked him higher than you. If you keep her, you're going to see that guy's kid every damn day. Sounds great, doesn't it?

Now, if the kid is yours, that's the dilemma. That's the only circumstance that should cause you to give 5 seconds pause on a divorce. Kids do better with both bio parents, generally. YMMV, but not by much. If you're okay with putting a chastity belt on her and a tracking device, it might work. Either way, it's your life, your marriage, your call.


----------



## Machiavelli

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> .
> 
> Man, that made me think of my own situation ... except I haven't dated in 23 years. I don't think I would know what to do. Fortunately, Torn is 29, tall and athletic ... I'm athletic but I'm also 5'10" (and 3/4, lol) and 45 ... I don't think he'll have any problems in that department.


Get a six-pack and you'll have women telling you what to do. Walk around Austin without a shirt on like that goofy actor does.


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> Everybody wants to save you the trouble of spending years in torture and agony trying to work past it, and then wind up here again. She lied to you about wondering about sex with other men, she'd already done lots of that and she will again.
> 
> Here's why: your wife is addicted to the PEA crack-high that comes from wild, casual sex with strangers. She's confessed to 3 or 4, but you've been apart for a few times and she's had an open ball field, so to speak. But you being away is not enough, she does strangers she meets while transacting business while you're in town. She's minimizing, so factor a 5 and you're suddenly up to 20 OMs. It's not too far fetched.
> 
> So, lets say you can get past that, then the question becomes can she get past it? On the one hand, your SMV is lowered in her eyes subconsciously, because you took her back. Her cortex is happy and grateful, but it ain't the cortex that controls the pvssy, it's the limbic brain, and her limbic brain is going to decide that it's you that are the pvssy for taking her back. So then you're back to her needing a dose of "bad boy," so put her back on schedule for the next round of the 4-7 year itch. It will happen.
> 
> This happens no matter whose baby she's packing. Now suppose the kid is the OM's, there is no way you're going to talk her into killing the kid. She's going to want to keep that kid and if you do end up divorcing, she'll keep that kid and find another good decent Christian guy AKA "beta-provider sap" who will support that kid and raise him for her. Her limbic wanted to have that guy's kid, because she ranked him higher than you. If you keep her, you're going to see that guy's kid every damn day. Sounds great, doesn't it?
> 
> Now, if the kid is yours, that's the dilemma. That's the only circumstance that should cause you to give 5 seconds pause on a divorce. Kids do better with both bio parents, generally. YMMV, but not by much. If you're okay with putting a chastity belt on her and a tracking device, it might work. Either way, it's your life, your marriage, your call.


:iagree:How can you even trust a thing she says now. You will be at work wondering if she is at home or out getting some strange on. Do you want to be a prison warden the rest of your life? Think about it she is off the charts.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

... or what Mach said.

You can file for divorce and still want to reconcile. The burden to reconcile is on her, make no mistake about that. She needs to do the heavy lifting. 

The question is, would you really want to reconcile? That is going to be a long, painful road and the trust will never completely be there again. You will never have the relationship with her that you thought you had. It will be marriage 2.0 and the marriage you though you had is dead. Knowing what you know now, is it worth it for the rest of your life? Would you take your marriage vows with this woman again now that you know a bit more about her character. 

I would support your decision either way but you need to really consider this as objectively as you can. We are looking at it objectively ... we don't know her and we have no feelings for her ... and that is one reason why our opinion may seem harsh to you. Know that everyone here has your best interest at heart. We want to support you as best we can. Read the other threads and you will see that demonstrated over and over. All we can do is offer advice and it is up to you what to do with it.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Machiavelli said:


> Get a six-pack and you'll have women telling you what to do. Walk around Austin without a shirt on like that goofy actor does.


:smthumbup:

btw, I have a 6-pack ... working on the 8-pack


----------



## carpenoctem

TornNBroken said:


> I kinda feel like everyone just wants me to divorce her before the smoke even clears...



*Torn:*

I think most here are telling you to make her BELIEVE / convince her that you are capable of divorcing her and pursuing a life of your own, if this behavior repeats / if she does not make fair reparations to you (behaviourally).

As you say, she HAS made behavioural changes (does seem very remorseful, etc.,) and is ready to do anything you want (factor in: she KNOWS you may not do many things that others in your position do - such as exposure to family for retribution / to ensure YOU are not painted later as the bad guy who thwarted the marriage). *Also keep in view that her infidelity is of a more wanton / reckless kind than an opportunistic ONS (multiple men, flirting with one and sleeping with another - the 'faceless fcuk', cheating while pregnant, etc).*


If anything, *posters here were primarily suggesting you defend yourself against her taking this equation for granted* (if she cheats, you will protest but forgive) *through a seemingly offensive gesture (the prospect of Divorce). *They are also asking you to ensure that you stay or walk for the right reasons (= right for you).

They are trying to ensure that just as you are trying to envisage her emotions and empathize with her as much as you can even during this hell storm, *she* also needs to comprehend the acid rain you are standing in, and make exceptional efforts - not just to salvage her marriage to you, but mainly to help you heal, and convince you that she has erected barriers against repeat offenses.

*I think most here are asking you to stand up for yourself the way you are standing up for that child who is not even born *, and whom you don't even know is yours (by the way, I salute you for that, brother. At your young age, to show that level of preemptive accountability and responsibility. Many would have mooted abortion (excluding the religious aspect). You never do.

Please examine whether, behind this sense of encompassing responsibility you feel towards your unborn child, there also is a desperate attempt / latent desire to hold on to your wife *through him/her? *Are you a co-dependent husband? (To me, all good, sensitive husbands appear co-dependent. What the hell, who else does one depend on, and be vulnerable in front of, if not your life partner? How do we do that in carefully calibrated degrees?)


Whatever future brings, Torn, *may your knees not buckle,* as they say in the Orient.




Aside:

I wager that many who will encourage / support you now to reconcile, will tell you to walk if she repeats this behaviour. *Funny thing is: Suppose you reconcile, and she repeats it, even the next time around, there will be humane logic in reconciling. *Just that you will be reconciling with a greater offense (her repeating it even after she saw the pain it brought you the previous time).
*
AND many who you tell your story then to, will advice you to reconcile with that too. Because for them, your infidelity is new, and they might see the whole thing as one infidelity story.
*
Only you can decide where / when to draw the line.

P.S.:
this is no affront on those who support Reconciliation, but just an observation. I am as confused as most are, about this infidelity conundrum.



*
Bottomline: a good man such as you deserves a good life. *Whatever that means in today's effed-up world.


----------



## carpenoctem

apologies for repeating some aspects.

while writing the post, many new posts had already been uploaded, with those aspects.

Best of luck, Torn.


----------



## Chaparral

I am always supportive of reconcilliation under certain circmstances. The great thing here is your wife came to you and confessed. That usually gets a lot of consideration.

The downside here is bad though. Your wife has started an affair while trying to get pregnant. But even worse, it turns out she is a serial cheater. On this board it is a given that serial cheaters can't stop. The theory, I think, is that this is a personality flaw that can't be fixed. It takes years of counseling to help a serial cheater. I can think of only two here that are currently successful. The guy's wife and eightyearscheating's.

For a current story of a Christian, serial cheating nightmare see Thorburn' s threads. 

Your wife needs professional help.

You need to really research this. This makes the average cheater look good. Your wife, like Thorburn' can't help herself.

I pray I am mistaken.


----------



## TornNBroken

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> apologies for repeating some aspects.
> 
> while writing the post, many new posts had already been uploaded, with those aspects.
> 
> Best of luck, Torn.


Very meaningful post. Thank you.


----------



## Chaparral

I am going to ad this after thinking of some waywards here that have been diagnosed with personality disorders. You have to make it tough on her for R to work. You MUST make her see a psychiatrist and she must let him tell you what is going on with her and her treatment.

The only reason this may work, is she had enough conscience to come to you, unless it was fear of something you haven't found out about yet.

I repeat, read Thorburn's threads, all of them.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

TornNBroken said:


> I kinda feel like everyone just wants me to divorce her before the smoke even clears...


No, they don't, but they extrapolate their cumulated experience on your data.

What you may do, is indeed have the smoke cleared up, gather the FACTS (including a DNA test), use their methods to get MORE FACTS, including methods to get her to talking about her affairs, you may have to be prepared to D to get her to that. 

This will take some time. 


Then make a timeline of everything you know.


Then think about what your options are and make a choice.


Be cool, this has been going on for a long time, there is no hurry. 
BUT there has to pressure on her.


----------



## Aunt Ava

Torn...have you had a chance to look at this thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/71294-oh-gawd.html

That betrayed husband understands that there needs to be consequences. And she seems truly remorseful. She had an EA, no PA. She's not a serial cheater either so the circumstances are different. He is very strong on his list of conditions for reconciliation.


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## river rat

Torn, I'm sorry if this seems callous. I've inferred from your posts that you are in an anesthesia residency/fellowship. Look at your older colleagues. Many of them are divorced. Long hours and nights away from home place great stress on the strongest relationship, which yours is not. The likelihood of her standing up to this stress is low. At this point your net worth is probably very low, considering educational debt. You have to factor in the cost of a divorce now vs later, when your assets will be greater. I know a doc who lives like a pauper because he made this mistake more than once.


----------



## LetDownNTX

Machiavelli said:


> Get a six-pack and you'll have women telling you what to do. Walk around Austin without a shirt on like that goofy actor does.


That actor is fine as hell and he could read the phone book to me. The best thing Reliant Energy ever did was pay him to do their commercials. I'd listen to that commercial all day long!


----------



## aug

river rat said:


> Torn, I'm sorry if this seems callous. I've inferred from your posts that you are in an anesthesia residency/fellowship. Look at your older colleagues. Many of them are divorced. Long hours and nights away from home place great stress on the strongest relationship, which yours is not. The likelihood of her standing up to this stress is low. At this point your net worth is probably very low, considering educational debt. You have to factor in the cost of a divorce now vs later, when your assets will be greater. I know a doc who lives like a pauper because he made this mistake more than once.


fyi, I believe this poster is another doctor. Hopefully, this info will add more weight to his advice.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

LetDownNTX said:


> That actor is fine as hell and he could read the phone book to me. The best thing Reliant Energy ever did was pay him to do their commercials. I'd listen to that commercial all day long!


We knew it all the time. The goofiest but ripped actor will beat out the intellectual types every time...unless the latter are ripped too 

But they have to spend most of their time developing their mental muscles, which just don't compare.


----------



## bfree

TornNBroken said:


> I kinda feel like everyone just wants me to divorce her before the smoke even clears...


I am not advising you to divorce her. I am advising you to FILE for divorce. Huge difference. You can withdraw the petition at any time and even if it finalizes you can remarry. What filing for divorce does is show her that you are strong and will not tolerate being disrespected. It also puts a time frame on things so she cannot try to draw things out. It puts you in the position of control which is exactly where you need to be whether you divorce or reconcile. And its really for your own well being. Right now you probably feel like everything is spiraling out of control. This would bring a little more stability into your mind. You are a man. Men are action oriented. Women respect men who take action and men feel better when they take action.


----------



## Machiavelli

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> btw, I have a 6-pack ... working on the 8-pack


There is a guy I used to lift with who had a 10-pack. Ten and and eight are merely genetic variants. And yes, women go ape for them. See, no matter how good you are, there is always somebody better and they don't even have to work for it. Genetics rule.


----------



## All of a sudden

Theseus said:


> It certainly has no ill effect - if your intent is divorce.


My husbands ow was his bookeeper who was also our school bookeeper, when I outted them it stopped really quick..


----------



## LongWalk

As others have pointed out her confession may be due to a fear that the child will not look like you. Therefore, she felt compelled to resolve the problem prior to going into labor. She knows that you love her and would hardly take joy in harassing her for details about her infidelity during pregnancy. It would make you feel like a bully, when your instinct now is to protect her.

It could be that she genuinely doesn't feel right about what she has done and wants to straighten up and fly right. It's good if honesty and integrity are important values intellectually, but as Mach pointed out reason flys out the door when pleasure beckons.

For her to succeed in reforming her behavior, regain her integrity, the fundamental dynamics of your relationship will have to be very different. She will have to feel that she belongs to you; that you don't take any sh*t. That is why Mach urges you to alpha up. If you do change yourself, you may reevaluate your worth. Maybe she won't be good enough for you if your self esteem is restored. Maybe you will be her mate.

Forgiveness and reconciliation are all fine but not if they merely empower her vagina's right to variety without your consent. You said after all that you wouldn't go swinging, etc.

Exposure, at least to your immediate family, will be horrible for you both. But if your goal is reconciliation based on forgiveness, they will be impressed that you are willing to give her a second chance. The prospect of failing, i.e., she sleeps around in the future and you discover it, will mean that not only will you divorce her, but her family will "divorce" her. That additional fear may help keep her on the straight and narrow.

It's one thing to be a reformed **** and another to be a wanton repeat offender.

Since some of these affairs occurred with guys you know, it is not inconceivable that some of them have bragged to each other that it is easy to score with your wife. So her reputation for promiscuity may already exist.

Even if the child she bears is not yours, you can still reconcile with her. For most men I think it would be a deal breaker. The idea that sex with your wife might be different because another man's offspring stretched her, might torment you. But I don't see that it absolutely must be so. After all, many divorced people create families with step children. You might have a step child who doesn't know its biological father. It's not the end of the world. Could be a great kid.

There is so much you must deal with now. Your wife likes to run, maybe you should work out to dispel the stress.


----------



## mrtickle

LongWalk said:


> As others have pointed out her confession may be due to a fear that the child will not look like you.


If she was a serial cheater, then revealing everything will result in all the paternity questions, stress and upheaval, and given that most babies certainly look alike and even not looking like the father is not terribly uncommon when the kid is older, it seems an odd time to reveal the infidelity.

Unless, of course, the OM is of a different ethnic group....

If thats not the case, then I presume it was either guilt, or a fear that the OM may try to contact BS and was trying to beat them to the punch.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

PreRaphaelite said:


> We knew it all the time. The goofiest but ripped actor will beat out the intellectual types every time...unless the latter are ripped too
> 
> But they have to spend most of their time developing their mental muscles, which just don't compare.


For some one who appreciates intelligence as much as others appreciate the body, it's candy in deed.


----------



## InlandTXMM

LongWalk said:


> Forgiveness and reconciliation are all fine but not if they merely empower her vagina's right to variety without your consent.


AMEN. Why I found this poignant and hilarious at the same time, I have no idea.

Be careful being too eager to show mercy. You think it'll look powerful to give her a pass. She already demonstrated a lack of respect for you that only diminished with each violation of your marriage. Showing mercy now will eliminate what's left.

Consequences aren't revenge - they are the natural lesson that comes from figuratively putting your hand on the hot stove. If there is no lingering burn, then nothing was learned.


----------



## TornNBroken

Thank you for the thoughtful post. 

I've been thinking....I bet every BS who is interested in R thinks that their WS is different....I mean, what my W has been saying and doing since I left has been very positive in my opinion. Yes, when she broke the news initially, she grossly understated her infidelity, but after that, she has answered every question that I've asked....AND she admitted to it, I didn't catch her. She has been willing to be exposed (even though I'm not there yet, I just mentioned it). She is willing to take the paternity test. So I start thinking, yes, she obviously has issues, but what if she just needed the jolt of seeing me crushed to change her ways? What if she can be completely free from cheating?

I know, I'm naive, and she'll relapse, she's a serial cheater. But how can anyone tell when to R and when to D. Like I said, I'm sure everyone who tries to R thinks their WS is different, right? If everyone who had been cheated on came here and believed what the majority of the posters were saying, no one would R. So the people that do, must think their WS is different than the majority of cheaters. Part of me believes all the stuff you experienced BSs are telling me. It makes sense that she would still be hiding stuff, that she'll relapse, that R would be hell and never work. But another part of me thinks, she knows she has a problem, she knew it had reached a tipping point and realized she needed help, so she confessed. So why couldn't we make it work? 

Obviously the results of the DNA test will push me towards either R or D, but how am I supposed to know what to choose...especially if its my kid? 

When I objectively look at the body of evidence, I say to myself, "Leave her, you deserve much better." But when I look at what she has said and the remorse she has shown since she confessed (unprompted) I want to give her the chance to make things right.

UGH!!!!


----------



## Chaparral

You need to get a diagnosis from a shrink. Serial cheating is a major issue that you can't fix and neither can she by herself.


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## carpenoctem

TornNBroken said:


> I know, I'm naive, and she'll relapse, she's a serial cheater. But how can anyone tell when to R and when to D. Like I said, I'm sure everyone who tries to R thinks their WS is different, right? If everyone who had been cheated on came here and believed what the majority of the posters were saying, no one would R. So the people that do, must think their WS is different than the majority of cheaters. Part of me believes all the stuff you experienced BSs are telling me. It makes sense that she would still be hiding stuff, that she'll relapse, that R would be hell and never work. But another part of me thinks, she knows she has a problem, she knew it had reached a tipping point and realized she needed help, so she confessed. So why couldn't we make it work?
> UGH!!!!



Torn:

It is up to HER to PROVE to you that she is a different type of WW.

That her remorse is strong enough to subdue / overcome serial cheating tendencies.

She must KNOW (be TOLD) that you are giving her a second chance against a million cons and very few pros (confessing on her own being one - but that could have some other reasons / motives.)

If you look around in TAM, there are VERY FEW BSs who could reconcile successfully with Serial Cheaters.

Or, to approach it from the other end, there are very few serial cheaters on TAM who could really overcome the urge.

*Is your Reconciliation caveated on the child being yours? If it turns out to be some other man's, do you have a POA for that situation? Does she know about it?*


Tough ride ahead. Godspeed.


She IS one lucky woman. And so is that child. Lucky.


----------



## PieceOfSky

chapparal said:


> You need to get a diagnosis from a shrink. Serial cheating is a major issue that you can't fix and neither can she by herself.


Do you mean a diagnosis of her condition?


----------



## PieceOfSky

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> If you look around in TAM, there are VERY FEW BSs who could reconcile successfully with Serial Cheaters.


New here, but *carpenoctem* is not the first to suggest yours is a very specialized case. I would seek contact with those few BSs who succeeded and try to ascertain what was "different" about themselves and their spouse and events that might have led to their unusual success. Maybe then you'd have something to compare/contrast with yours.

I think earlier in your thread a name or two were mentioned. Apologies if this has already been sufficiently discussed.

Good luck to you. Never forget, YOU deserve happiness. May what you decide still make that possible.


----------



## TornNBroken

PieceOfSky said:


> New here, but *carpenoctem* is not the first to suggest yours is a very specialized case.


What exactly makes it so specialized???

I know there are plenty of cheaters who cheated for longer, had much more elaborate cheating and covering up, had many more encounters, etc....

Yes, there was more than one guy, and believe me, I'm not marginalizing AT ALL what she did, BUT she made some stupid decisions when she was lonely when I was gone for a few months back in the day (which, from her accounts was a one night stand, and then a guy taking advantage of her at a party). Allegedly, there was nothing for a few years, and then she relapsed in the last few months, it freaked her out that she could still do this, so she confessed, is taking ALL the blame, and is eager to do ANYTHING to get me back.

I guess, to me, it seems like the odds of her having success are better than a lot of people who are unremorseful, don't take all the blame, had to be caught in the act in order for their cheating to come to light.

Why is her case so "specialized?"


----------



## TornNBroken

I feel like I already know what you guys are gonna say to my post, but I feel like someone needs to make her argument, since she's not here....


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## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> What exactly makes it so specialized???
> 
> I know there are plenty of cheaters who cheated for longer, had much more elaborate cheating and covering up, had many more encounters, etc....
> 
> Yes, there was more than one guy, and believe me, I'm not marginalizing AT ALL what she did, BUT she made some stupid decisions when she was lonely when I was gone for a few months back in the day. Allegedly, there was nothing for a few years, and then she relapsed in the last few months, it freaked her out that she could still do this, so she confessed, is taking ALL the blame, and is eager to do ANYTHING to get me back.
> 
> I guess, to me, it seems like the odds of her having success are better than a lot of people who are unremorseful, don't take all the blame, had to be caught in the act in order for their cheating to come to light.
> 
> Why is her case so "specialized?"


First, please please discount anything I say compared to those have hung around here much longer than I. I am mostly lost here in my active and old problems.

I see now what I said really missed the point I was trying to make. It is this: as I read these posts, it seems many people have been in your sorts of shoes, but very few have successfully reconciled. You have made some good points in your wife's favor, but I have no idea if they indicate reconciliation is more likely to succeed. I am just suggesting you may find something worth considering if you talk to someone that has succeeded in reconciling in a situation like yours. It is THAT persons case that is really unique and whatever they were or did sounds SPECIAlL indeed. i hope you will find out you have something essential in common with them, especially if recociliation is what you yearn for. To be clear, I did not mean to imply your wife has done anything especially unusual for this board.

EDIT:
In other words, some do succeed in reconciling in a serial cheater situation. Find out why they do, and whether your wife's good qualities and voluntary confession etc. really indicate you've got a better chance than most.


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## TornNBroken

Its not just your comment...I feel like a lot of people seem think that her cheating is especially heinous. And trust me, I feel it is very heinous, especially with the pregnancy, but then again, I think that ALL cheating is heinous.


----------



## azteca1986

TornNBroken said:


> I feel like I already know what you guys are gonna say to my post, but I feel like *someone needs to make her argument*, since she's not here....


I don't think that forcing you to empathise with her behaviour is healthy FOR YOU.

What was her explanation for having a 'relapse' whilst trying to have a baby with her husband?

(And I don't buy her 'taken advantage of' argument. I won't spell it out though)


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> Its not just your comment...I feel like a lot of people seem think that her cheating is especially heinous. And trust me, I feel it is very heinous, especially with the pregnancy, but then again, I think that ALL cheating is heinous.


I feel for you. It must be really tough.

If i were in your situation, I really wouldn't know how to gage it, or whether trying to gage would get me anywhere.

In my life, i have always wanted to see both aspects: she behaved badly, but I love her and know her deeply and know she's vulnerable to her condition or childhood or motherhood stressed or whatever. And I always want to be the one to take the punch for her, forgive her, and try again.

It seems that hasn't worked for me. But, at least it's gotten us to "here" "together". But I need to find a different way forward. I digress, don't let me defocus your thread.


----------



## TornNBroken

PieceOfSky said:


> I feel for you. It must be really tough.
> 
> If i were in your situation, I really wouldn't know how to gage it, or whether trying to gage would get me anywhere.
> 
> *In my life, i have always wanted to see both aspects: she behaved badly, but I love her and know her deeply and know she's vulnerable to her condition or childhood or motherhood stressed or whatever. And I always want to be the one to take the punch for her, forgive her, and try again.*
> 
> It seems that hasn't worked for me. But, at least it's gotten us to "here" "together". But I need to find a different way forward. I digress, don't let me defocus your thread.


This.


----------



## jnj express

Hey Torn---the bottom line to all of this---is only one person walks in your shoes---YOU

What you are getting here, are opinions, and possible methods of dealing, and believe me those that give you advice are experts---for they are living/or have lived, this horror---that you now go thru

It all still boils down---to what you wanna deal with/put up with/live with for the rest of your life-----no matter how much and how many words come out---it is just that simple---either you stay or you go----sure there are events and responsibilities, that will sway your thinking---but in the end---it comes down to what your mind is gonna allow you to handle

One side---you have a child coming---you need to do paternity on that child to see if it is even yours---for if you allow it to see the light of day, and do nothing---legally you are the father---no matter who the biological father is

Other side---you got a wife---who has no clue as to the definition of mge, and what sacred vows mean---even unto recent cheating while pregnant

Love---she has no love for you---otherwise this wouldn't be happening, UNLESS she can't help herself, and she has a physical addiction----then what do you do---are you gonna spend the rest of your life watching her sneak off and spread her legs, when she gets that chemical addiction telling her to do just that --go find a man and spread your legs for him---is that something you wanna watch and deal with the rest of your life

Kid or no kid---its your life, and you gotta decide how you wanna spend it----just remember one thing---YOU ONLY GET ONE LIFE, ONE SHOT AT LIFE, ONE TRIP THRU LIFE---its on you, whether its enjoyable and happy, or its a life spent in misery.


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## TornNBroken

Thnx JNJ.


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> This.


I should add: me taking the punches hasn't worked for her or our relationship either. It is anti-growth and become a force of destruction.


----------



## TornNBroken

azteca1986 said:


> What was her explanation for having a 'relapse' whilst trying to have a baby with her husband?


"I really don't know the why. It's like I'm addicted to feeling good about myself. A lot of things I do are motivated by feeling good about myself. Working out, making myself look pretty, shopping, trying to further my career, run marathons. And when other men give me attention, I don't even like them, I just like how they make me feel about myself. 

It's like I turn into another person. Even though I have a voice inside my head telling me "no, you will regret this, don't do this", it's like I don't care... I make excuses and say "oh it's innocent" until I've gone too far. Then afterwards and I feel depressed and unworthy and not good enough and the cycle continues of doing things to make me feel better about myself." 

(I don't feel totally comfortable sharing exact quotes from her, but I hope it might help me gain some insight to not be the only one hearing her exact side of the story)


----------



## jnj express

Hey Torn---you might wanna go over to the Web MD website, and read the article on Hypersexual Addiction---this might not necessarily be the end all---but it might give you some insight in what you are dealing with, how to deal with it, and what you wanna do about it

Your wife by her own admission, knows she is doing wrong, and she is immature, with no morals---basically she is completely SELFISH---cuz she knows you are there, she knows there is a child coming, and she knows the repercussions of what will happen based on her actions----yet she doesn't care---she keeps going thru the red flags---till it is toooo late, and then she has ripped away more of what is left of you---till there will be nothing left----this is nothing more than selfishness, and immaturity, on her part---or chemical addiction----again as I said above---how you deal with it, and how much of it you can handle is up to you.

If you do allow her to stay------her marathon trng, needs to be strictly monitored---as to the races themselves, you need to make sure she keeps with a group of women, and is nowhere near men who she might be attracted to---how you do that, who knows---but it needs to happen

To make this work---you are in for a boatload of work, and she is in for a total makeover---do you really wanna go thru all of this----will it really even be worth it in the end---cuz you gotta know one thing---the memories, and visions of what she has already done---may never go away


----------



## azteca1986

TornNBroken said:


> (I don't feel totally comfortable sharing exact quotes from her, but I hope it might help me gain some insight to not be the only one hearing her exact side of the story)


Hey man, everyone here wants you to do what you have to to look after yourself. That's your no.1 priority.



> Then afterwards and I feel depressed and unworthy and not good enough and the *cycle continues of doing things* to make me feel better about myself."


She's not being honest with herself here. She's not doing 'things'. She's doing the one thing that gets her depressed and feeling unworthy in the first place. Craves attention from men. Gets it. Feels depressed. Repeat. Repeat. Casually betraying her husband and inflicting such hurt on you is just a by-product.

_The next bit might be painful for you:
_
I remember when my wife and I decided that we were ready to start a family. Our relationship was in a good place. We were both mentally ready to welcome parenthood and take the final step to becoming a family. It was after all the reason we got married to eachother. So we tried. We had a miscarriage. Held off for a bit. Started trying again. No joy. We saw a doctor. We tried again (a bunch of times). I'll never forget the day the pregnancy was confirmed (In truth I already knew) We were buzzed. Walking on air.

Now into this happy scene you have to insert P. This is why this last affair is so heinous. When you're in the 'let's make a family' line of thinking you're both engaged mentally and physically. She's ready to carry your child for the next nine months, but somehow your wife is conducting an affair right in the midst this. UFB.

She wants you to believe that a guy who's bed she shared whilst married, danced with, made out with, (no sex it's claimed) suddenly reappeared in her life and they 'start' an affair.

How do they go from cheating behaviour (but no sex) whilst you're away to full blown affair when you're both trying to start a family. It doesn't add up. This is the question I was asking.


----------



## TornNBroken

Thanks for your comments, but you got the story mixed up a bit. Its not the same guy. I think the "dancing guy" was a foot in the door, then when he left she thought, "WTF, I already screwed up, whats a little more?" So the ONS happened. But no, this recent guy was a new guy in a new state.


----------



## river rat

TornNBroken said:


> "I really don't know the why. It's like I'm addicted to feeling good about myself. A lot of things I do are motivated by feeling good about myself. Working out, making myself look pretty, shopping, trying to further my career, run marathons. And when other men give me attention, I don't even like them, I just like how they make me feel about myself.
> 
> It's like I turn into another person. Even though I have a voice inside my head telling me "no, you will regret this, don't do this", it's like I don't care... I make excuses and say "oh it's innocent" until I've gone too far. Then afterwards and I feel depressed and unworthy and not good enough and the cycle continues of doing things to make me feel better about myself."
> 
> (I don't feel totally comfortable sharing exact quotes from her, but I hope it might help me gain some insight to not be the only one hearing her exact side of the story)


People who go to extremes to feel good about themselves have low self esteem. Those extremes include all kinds of behavior, including choice of profession, but they tend to have a common denominator- something was missing in how they were made to feel about themselves in early childhood. You can't fix this. Maybe she can, with years of therapy and a lot of work on her part. There a people on this site who are actual therapists, and maybe they will comment.


----------



## azteca1986

TornNBroken said:


> Thanks for your comments, but you got the story mixed up a bit. Its not the same guy. I think the "dancing guy" was a foot in the door, then when he left she thought, "WTF, I already screwed up, whats a little more?" So the ONS happened. But no, this recent guy was a new guy in a new state.


Apologies.

So, irrespective of the good place your marriage was in she got back on the I-need-attention-cycle.


----------



## dogman

TornNBroken said:


> "I really don't know the why. It's like I'm addicted to feeling good about myself. A lot of things I do are motivated by feeling good about myself. Working out, making myself look pretty, shopping, trying to further my career, run marathons. And when other men give me attention, I don't even like them, I just like how they make me feel about myself.
> 
> It's like I turn into another person. Even though I have a voice inside my head telling me "no, you will regret this, don't do this", it's like I don't care... I make excuses and say "oh it's innocent" until I've gone too far. Then afterwards and I feel depressed and unworthy and not good enough and the cycle continues of doing things to make me feel better about myself."
> 
> (I don't feel totally comfortable sharing exact quotes from her, but I hope it might help me gain some insight to not be the only one hearing her exact side of the story)



The statements she said can be true. I happen to have the same problem at times over the years. Self esteem issues for sure. 

I've also had some impulse control issues with violence when I was going out a lot. 

The problem is...crossing the line from thought to action. I never crossed the line in regard to another woman while I was married. Once crossed, the line is so much weaker and easily crossed again.
In regard to brawling it became easier and easier. 

I thanks God I never weakened that line with women.

Your wife has destroyed the line and she knows it. She wants help.
Do I believe she can rebuild the proper line/boundary? Yes I do. Only because the rebuilding is happening at her request.

The big question is...can you deal with the acts your wife has done with other men? If you are a "contemporary man" and can deal with this new discovery without losing too much self respect, then there is hope. 

For me....I couldn't because I'm old fashioned and insecure. But that's me.

Note: this all hinges on the DNA test. All bets are off if it isn't yours.


----------



## JCD

chapparal said:


> You need to get a diagnosis from a shrink. Serial cheating is a major issue that you can't fix and neither can she by herself.


A FEMALE shrink


----------



## bfree

Torn,

Let me say right now that I am very happily married to a wonderful woman. We've been married for the better part of two decades. My life is absolutely great.

I was married before. I caught her cheating on me. I wanted to reconcile and in fact begged and pleaded for R. Then I found out that she had in fact been cheating for almost our entire marriage. She had cheated with several men. She was a serial cheater. Guess what. I STILL wanted to reconcile with her. I thought my (our) love was strong enough to "cure" her. SHE was the one that didn't want to R so we got divorced. It was probably the nicest thing she ever did for me. She continue to cycle through men her entire life. She is now a very bitter broken down woman. Would things have been different if we had stayed married? I very much doubt it. I strongly suspect she would have continued to cheat on me no matter what. What I eventually came to understand was that something inside her was broken. We tend to form our basic core personalities in childhood and they really don't change. We can learn to overcome and manage certain negative aspects of our personalities but they are always going to be there. The fact is that some people just cannot be in a monogamous relationship and shouldn't get married. I am so very thankful I didn't stay married to my ex. If I had I would have endured heartbreak after heartbreak. Maybe she would not have ended up as bitter and broken as she did but my life would have been wasted and useless. I would never have met my wife and I wouldn't have ever had children. Now that would have been a tragedy. Is my first marriage the same as your situation. Probably not. There are always slight differences. But you have to ask yourself what will your life be like if you end up staying married vs. getting a divorce and finding someone else. That is your decision and yours alone. And as much as I hate to say it you should be completely selfish when you make it. You only get one time on the ride of life. Make it a good one.


----------



## Chaparral

TornNBroken said:


> "I really don't know the why. It's like I'm addicted to feeling good about myself. A lot of things I do are motivated by feeling good about myself. Working out, making myself look pretty, shopping, trying to further my career, run marathons. And when other men give me attention, I don't even like them, I just like how they make me feel about myself.
> 
> It's like I turn into another person. Even though I have a voice inside my head telling me "no, you will regret this, don't do this", it's like I don't care... I make excuses and say "oh it's innocent" until I've gone too far. Then afterwards and I feel depressed and unworthy and not good enough and the cycle continues of doing things to make me feel better about myself."
> 
> (I don't feel totally comfortable sharing exact quotes from her, but I hope it might help me gain some insight to not be the only one hearing her exact side of the story)


Every time you post about her it just gets worse. The reason this is so bad is she is a serial cheater. The only qualifier is that she brought it up to you. Normally that is a very good thing.

She admits to doing wrong, WITH MEN SHE DOESN'T LIKE!!!!!!!

Normally, what we see here in a similar condition, is likely sex abuse as a child or a major personallity disorder. It may be both, the one causing the other. The only way to tell is with professional help. As a Christian this may fall under the for better or worse part of the marriage. 

It isn't that it is so heinous, your word I believe, its that it is likely unfixable. Only a professsional can say, find a really good one. 

Have you looked up the symptoms of Narcissim (sp), bi polar and borderline personality disorders for example. From what little you have said, I would not guess and am not in any way qualified to anyway. Its just that the way it turns out, serial cheaters always seem to have one unless there is some major flaw in the relationship.

Only you can say what was going on in your relationship at the times her cheating. I lost track and can't remember if its four or five guys. Whats bad with that is at this stage, you probably don't have the truth about the number yet. No one ever does. Make another list of questions you want answered, sit her down, tell her you are going over them a again and that she will be taking a polygraph test. Few will bluff after you tell them that, some won't come clean until they are in the polygraphers parking lot.

Time line. The seven year itch is real. women really do have a cycle where their biology/hormones make them look for diverse sex partners. The cycle runs between 4 and seven years. They are also most likely to dress sexier, flirt, dance more provocatively and cheat when they are ovulating. Some simply can't control it. And its getting worse as morals go to hell.


----------



## Chaparral

river rat said:


> People who go to extremes to feel good about themselves have low self esteem. Those extremes include all kinds of behavior, including choice of profession, but they tend to have a common denominator- something was missing in how they were made to feel about themselves in early childhood. You can't fix this. Maybe she can, with years of therapy and a lot of work on her part. There a people on this site who are actual therapists, and maybe they will comment.


People with over inflated egos do to. I think this is probaly your wife.

*"I really don't know the why. It's like I'm addicted to feeling good about myself. A lot of things I do are motivated by feeling good about myself. Working out, making myself look pretty, shopping, trying to further my career, run marathons. And when other men give me attention, I don't even like them, I just like how they make me feel about myself. *

Sounds like a classic, self centered narccissist to me.


----------



## Chaparral

azteca1986 said:


> Apologies.
> 
> So, irrespective of the good place your marriage was in she got back on the I-need-attention-cycle.


This assumes there was a good place in the marriage. I am guessing there were more episodes than she has admittied to. So far, I can't remember one that did not triclkle truth, even the ones that exposed themselves.


----------



## WyshIknew

TornNBroken said:


> But another part of me thinks, she knows she has a problem, she knew it had reached a tipping point and realized she needed help, so she confessed. But when I look at what she has said and the remorse she has shown since she confessed (unprompted) I want to give her the chance to make things right.
> 
> UGH!!!!





TornNBroken said:


> Allegedly, there was nothing for a few years, and then she relapsed in the last few months, it freaked her out that she could still do this, so she confessed, is taking ALL the blame, and is eager to do ANYTHING to get me back.


Are you absolutely sure about this TNB?

I know you are probably sick and tired of people banging on about this but people are banging on about it for a reason.

Has your WW intimated to you why she decided to confess rather than keep it quiet? Given the deceit she has practiced over the years it seems strange that she should want to confess now. 
Surely the more logical choice would be to vow to herself to stop, leave you none the wiser and spend the rest of her life making you and her happy?

Are you absolutely sure that fear of being outed hasn't prompted her confession?

GF/Wife of other man/other men finding out and threatening her with exposure?

Something to do with the baby?

Other man/men expressing their undying love for her and threatening to spill the beans to you to try and win her for themselves?

Big falling out with a confidant who has threatened to tell?

These are far and away the more common reasons for a 'confession'.

Two that immediately spring to mind are 'OldMittens' whose wife had an ONS with his BFF. The BFF was then smitten and threatened to tell OldMittens unless she continued the sex. She finally confessed when OldMittens found some texts.

Or DGEE who had a threesome in the back of a van with some old school friends and kept it from her husband for 20 years. She confessed when an ex friend threatened to tell her husband.

I don't want to be all doom and gloom as it is possible that she has had an attack of conscience. I just want you to have your eyes open. You seem very eager to believe the 'sudden attack of conscience' approach.

It just seems strange to me that someone who has lied and cheated on you all those years, has cheated before and after being pregnant should suddenly say "Oh naughty me, I'd better tell TNB what I've done".

Has she or you mentioned a 'free pass' yet? (Not suggesting you should take it but the offer can give an insight into the mindset of a person.)


----------



## azteca1986

chapparal said:


> This assumes there was a good place in the marriage. I am guessing there were more episodes than she has admittied to. So far, I can't remember one that did not triclkle truth, even the ones that exposed themselves.


The good place being moving from man and wife to starting a family. Beggars belief really. 

I agree on the trickle truth. What Torn knows up to now is the watered down version. With the paternity test to come.


----------



## JCD

TornNBroken said:


> This.


You seem to have liked the part you bolded. You seem to be ignoring the part that is bolded and italicized.



PieceOfSky said:


> I feel for you. It must be really tough.
> 
> If i were in your situation, I really wouldn't know how to gage it, or whether trying to gage would get me anywhere.
> 
> In my life, i have always wanted to see both aspects: she behaved badly, but I love her and know her deeply and know she's vulnerable to her condition or childhood or motherhood stressed or whatever. *.And I always want to be the one to take the punch for her, forgive her, and try again*
> 
> *It seems that hasn't worked for me.* But, at least it's gotten us to "here" "together". But I need to find a different way forward. I digress, don't let me defocus your thread.


So being a man to take the punch for his woman only makes sense if she is attempting to *stop having you NEED to take punches for her.*

Here is the thing, the punches you are having to take aren't from some strange guy trying to hurt her. It isn't life trying to kick her when she's down. SHE is punching you! And if life has knocked her on her ass, well, it's because she did the cliff dive herself WILLFULLY.

So...I actually believe in R. Really I do. And it might be possible with YOUR wife.

But, just for the viewers at home and the slow in thinking, let's highlight a little something.

She had a ONS with a POS whom she KNEW was a POS...and one you would see again (okay...mistakes happen)

She WENT TO A PARTY the next day where said people were...and got taken advantage of. (I will, as a gentleman, believe her. That can happen. Here is the question: after she was 'Oh so guilty' for sleeping with POS, WHY WAS SHE AT A PARTY WITH HIM? Why was she at a party at ALL when she already proved to herself that she majorly screwed up and had poor boundaries? Why wasn't she crying at home, or doing some serious prayer and self analysis? Nope, she was out drinking and dancing and getting 'taken advantage of'.

How many parties has she been to alone since then?

You were away from her and lonely. How many times did you cheat? Why is lonliness exculpatory in her case? Why is she special?

So...we (and be 'we' I mean 'you') are making such a huge deal about her 'self confession'. Where was it that first time? Why did she have so little faith in your forgiveness and undestanding? Why does it look like she was covering it up?

Now we fast forward to Mr. Massause. I assume he was the guy feeling her up. Um...who selected that gender of massauese?

So she's sleeping with a hireling. What mental processes made her think this was okay? How many times did she meet him, which may be MUCH MORE than the number of sexual encounters she may have had?

Did she have FOUR appointments with this guy?

And again...we come up to the elephant in YOUR living room. If she felt so badly, why didn't she come clean the first time she did it? She went back for fourths...that you know of. What triggered her to suddenly become 'faithful'?

Every single one of these questions you SHOULD be asking her (you won't)

Here are a few more:

Where did she commit these infidelities?

Did any of your friends know about this? (They should be history)

What is she going to do which makes her worth another moment of your time? Tears is easy. Is she reading anything? Is she confessing to anybody? Is she giving up her privacy, her fancy iPhone her car privileges?

She needs to throw out all the clothes she went to this massage place herself. She needs to give up 'nice' things, like parties, pampering, hair stylists and spa treatments. She hasn't earned them. 

After the SEVEN times where she didn't come clean, why should you believe she's suddenly a changed creature instead of someone with a baby who is desperate for a place to put her head?

How often did she screw 2 months ago during baby making time? Press this point.

Is she willing to swear a complaint against this Peter POS? Why won't she give you his name? Why is she protecting him? Where exactly do her loyalties lie? What ethnicity is Peter POS?

Did she ever contemplate a divorce with boytoy?

How does she feel if you take a nice two week vacation to Thailand by yourself?

How does she want to divide the community property if it comes to that? Where will she live? (You NEED to ask this question to give her a strong sense of how messed up things can become)


YOU ARE THE WRONGED PARTY!

You _can_ play martyr man...but it won't fix her. How often are you willing to put up with this type of behavior? 

So...aside from the kid thing, she needs to woman up and answer a good number of questions. She needs to look her crapulance straight in the eye and own it, not let you tell her everything will be alright. It shouldn't be alright.

She needs to do the heavy lifting here! Not you!


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> Why is her case so "specialized?"


Nothing at all special about it. Just another girl addicted to strange cøck.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> Its not just your comment...I feel like a lot of people seem think that her cheating is especially heinous. And trust me, I feel it is very heinous, especially with the pregnancy, but then again, I think that ALL cheating is heinous.


Even that pregnancy bit is nothing at all unusual. Women are most strongly attracted to Alpha characteristics when ovulating. She's been trying to get pregnant and having that thought on her mind, you haven't got the job done. Her autonomic reproductive script is running and sends the signal. She's an experienced adulteress so she is okay with the basic concept and the cortex can't override the limbic signals because she doesn't want it to. This is not especially heinous, it's practically hardwired. It's the first adultery that is heinous. After that, it's just about the fun. 

What was God's first command to Adam and Eve? "Be fruitful and multiply." It's in the program. The deck is stacked to make that happen.

Here's how it played out for one of my wife's friends who just adopted a half/black, half/white kid. The H is a big strapping cowboy age 25, blond and blue. The W is 25, blonde and blue. She goes down to Houston for a wedding (alone) and around that time she gets pregnant. In the delivery room, baby comes out very, very dark. Cowboy goes "see ya" and walks straight out the door of the delivery room. Divorce and adoption. Now if OM had been a Caucasian, the BH would have been none the wiser.

Your wife's behavior is very standard.


----------



## Machiavelli

Mentally ill? I think DSM-5 says 100% of the population as some form of mental illness. This is just thrill sex. Lots of women are into it.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

Machiavelli said:


> Nothing at all special about it. Just another girl addicted to strange cøck.


Machiavelli,

The BEAUTY of it that our friend may not know yet is that accepting this truth, is actually a lot LESS painful than burying your head in the sand.


----------



## carmen ohio

TornNBroken said:


> "I really don't know the why. It's like I'm addicted to feeling good about myself. A lot of things I do are motivated by feeling good about myself. Working out, making myself look pretty, shopping, trying to further my career, run marathons. And when other men give me attention, I don't even like them, I just like how they make me feel about myself.
> 
> It's like I turn into another person. Even though I have a voice inside my head telling me "no, you will regret this, don't do this", it's like I don't care... I make excuses and say "oh it's innocent" until I've gone too far. Then afterwards and I feel depressed and unworthy and not good enough and the cycle continues of doing things to make me feel better about myself."
> 
> (I don't feel totally comfortable sharing exact quotes from her, but I hope it might help me gain some insight to not be the only one hearing her exact side of the story)


Dear TornNBroken,

Hang in there, you're doing well considering everything that's happened to you in the last few days.

As someone said, it's your life and your decision whether to divorce your WW or to try to reconcile with her. You still have time to make this decision so don't feel pressured.

Take it one step at a time:

(1) paternity test;

(2) legal advice about your rights and obligations if the child is not yours; 

(3) professional evaluation of your WW's mental health (bipolar, BPD, narcissism, sex addiction);

(4) observing her behavior to try to determine if she is truly remorseful or simply trying to avoid becoming a single mother;

(5) letting your emotions settle down a bit so that you can decide if you have what it takes to try to reconcile (assuming all the other indicators are good).

In the meantime, do your best to keep up your mental and physical health (sleep, eating, exercise, keeping active, etc.).

Unfortunately, this chapter of your life is not going to end any time soon no matter what you do or don't do. So plan for the long haul and remember that you're still young and have a great life to look forward to if you make thoughtful decisions that you feel comfortable with.

Praying for you.


----------



## Machiavelli

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Machiavelli,
> 
> The BEAUTY of it that our friend may not know yet is that accepting this truth, is actually a lot LESS painful than burying your head in the sand.


Yes. If the kid is his, I can see making the effort. I probably would try. But he needs to understand right now that his wife's sexual best, he will never see. That inner slvt behavior will never be directed his way. That's reserved for other guys, even if she never takes up with another OM, which is a long shot, she'll keep it bottled up.

OP, I'm not buying that long dry spell your wife is claiming. It could be true, but that is one part of your story that really would be a unique snowflake.

Polygraph.


----------



## cledus_snow

you have a KISA complex. stop "saving" your wife. she needs to realize consequences for her actions.

that is why you find yourself here..... you keep protecting her. STOP!


----------



## jim123

TornNBroken said:


> "I really don't know the why. It's like I'm addicted to feeling good about myself. A lot of things I do are motivated by feeling good about myself. Working out, making myself look pretty, shopping, trying to further my career, run marathons. And when other men give me attention, I don't even like them, I just like how they make me feel about myself.
> 
> It's like I turn into another person. Even though I have a voice inside my head telling me "no, you will regret this, don't do this", it's like I don't care... I make excuses and say "oh it's innocent" until I've gone too far. Then afterwards and I feel depressed and unworthy and not good enough and the cycle continues of doing things to make me feel better about myself."
> 
> (I don't feel totally comfortable sharing exact quotes from her, but I hope it might help me gain some insight to not be the only one hearing her exact side of the story)


You have to stop what she does.

She does what makes her feel good regardless of what it does to you or anyone else.

You do whatever is best for her regardless of what it does to you.

You enable her behavior. The introduction of a child will not make it better. It will in the short run but no in a year or two after the child is born.

She needs something to force her to permenant change.

You are not doing her a favor by enabling her not to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TornNBroken

JCD said:


> Every single one of these questions you SHOULD be asking her (you won't) *I HAVE asked most of these questions*
> 
> Here are a few more:
> 
> Where did she commit these infidelities? *Twice at the massage place and twice at his place*
> 
> Did any of your friends know about this? (They should be history) *She told me about one friend who knew about florida, but only her current counselor knew about massage guy*
> 
> What is she going to do which makes her worth another moment of your time? Tears is easy. Is she reading anything? Is she confessing to anybody? Is she giving up her privacy, her fancy iPhone her car privileges? *SHE's already suggested that she get rid of FB, that I can GPS her car, track her cell phone usage, and anything I feel necessary*
> 
> She needs to throw out all the clothes she went to this massage place herself. She needs to give up 'nice' things, like parties, pampering, hair stylists and spa treatments. She hasn't earned them.
> 
> After the SEVEN times where she didn't come clean, why should you believe she's suddenly a changed creature instead of someone with a baby who is desperate for a place to put her head?
> 
> How often did she screw 2 months ago during baby making time? Press this point.
> 
> Is she willing to swear a complaint against this Peter POS? Why won't she give you his name? Why is she protecting him? Where exactly do her loyalties lie? What ethnicity is Peter POS? *She has given me his full name, right after I asked her for his full name*
> 
> Did she ever contemplate a divorce with boytoy?
> *You asking if she thought of leaving me for him? That I didn't ask*
> 
> She needs to do the heavy lifting here! Not you.
> *I agree.*


----------



## TornNBroken

cledus_snow said:


> you have a kisa complex. Stop "saving" your wife. She needs to realize consequences for her actions.
> 
> That is why you find yourself here..... You keep protecting her. Stop!


kisa???


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> kisa???


Maybe that's a reference to this:

http://kisa.ca/personality/

I don't know.


----------



## walkonmars

knight in shining armor = kisa


----------



## TornNBroken

Ahhh, thanks.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> kisa???


Knight in Shining Armor. A common commentary from posters about people who try to "save" their waywards...mostly if they are wayward wives.

I have mixed feelings about the idea.


----------



## Chaparral

knight in shining armour


----------



## SomedayDig

LMAO...seems a few of us were posting at the same time.

Typical!


----------



## TornNBroken

I really dont think I have that type of mentality though. While, yes, I do care for her and have concern for how she feels, I do think I'm focusing on myself above all here. I have put so much into our relationship and our lives these past 12 years, it'd be a lot to give up. I have the pretty wife, the two dogs, the nice big house, the 2 nice cars, great job, and now a bouncing baby on the way. Yeah, I know that's mainly superficial stuff, but its a lifestyle I had pictured for myself and worked hard for. It would be a shock to me to go from that to, single-recently divorced, with no child, or a "part-time child," living in an apartment somewhere and trying to date.

I'm not saying that I'm gonna R just to cling to what may now be a false picture of happiness, I'm just saying, all that stuff I've worked for IS incentive to try and make it work. No?


----------



## jim123

Given it happened at his work you should notify his employer. She is not the only one he is doing.

Also notify the corp office. Send a certified letter to the franchise owner and to corp office.

This is a big problem for them.

You would be a fool not to do this.

You WW found out he would not commit hence the confession.

You have to report this. This is the no no of this type of business.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TornNBroken

jim123 said:


> Given it happened at his work you should notify his employer. She is not the only one he is doing.
> 
> Also notify the corp office. Send a certified letter to the franchise owner and to corp office.
> 
> This is a big problem for them.
> 
> You would be a fool not to do this.
> 
> You WW found out he would not commit hence the confession.
> 
> You have to report this. This is the no no of this type of business.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've been pondering this...

My fears....I don't know this guy. What if he's a psycho. What if I get him fired and he snaps? What if he comes after me? What if he goes after her (and the baby)? What if he won't leave us alone?

What benefit does it do me personally if this random guy I don't know gets fired? And is that benefit worth the risk? 

Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I don't want to escalate an already sh!tty situation.


----------



## TornNBroken

jim123 said:


> You WW found out he would not commit hence the confession._Posted via Mobile Device_


Ya know, I understand that you all think you know exactly what has happened and that you are just filling me in on the stuff that I "cant see." But its getting a little tired some. I'm sorry, but nothing about my situation suggests that my WW has any emotional attachment to any of these men. Why the fvck would she be wanting to leave me for a fvcking $10/hr-making massage man-***** when I'm 10x the person he'll ever be. 

From all I can gather, she has issues with impulse control and self esteem...she's not a moron.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> Ya know, I understand that you all think you know exactly what has happened and that you are just filling me in on the stuff that I "cant see." But its getting a little tired some. I'm sorry, but nothing about my situation suggests that my WW has any emotional attachment to any of these men. Why the fvck would she be wanting to leave me for a fvcking $10/hr-making massage man-***** when I'm 10x the person he'll ever be.
> 
> From all I can gather, she has issues with impulse control and self esteem...she's not a moron.


It ain't about her prefrontal cortex. Women don't choose who makes them lubricate.


----------



## walkonmars

When you first married you both had a shared dream. Somewhere along the road maybe you both lost sight of that dream, or maybe only she did. What is indisputable is that she lost her respect for you along the way - you just don't serially betray someone you respect. 

She may respect you as a breadwinner and provider but not as a man nor as a lover - at least she didn't then. She found someone else to fill that role. Granted he (and the others) may have come-on to her. 

But the fact is, that the only people who's interest it was to protect the marriage was the both of you. She not only stopped protecting it, she allowed it's ruin (if in fact he came-on to her), or she orchestrated it's ruin herself. 

Perhaps you were too blind to actively protect the marriage? The pregnancy was perhaps a wake-up call for her? If so, why did she go back for the "fourth round" (if indeed there were only four). Don't make any commitments for a long while. 

Do some reading, introspection, re-examine those shared dreams you developed with her. Are any of them still viable? Are they achievable with her given her attitude toward fidelity? Sure she isn't a bad person just an unfaithful wife. Can she change? Are you so invested in the marriage that if the child is not yours you will still be there?

Talk to a lawyer about your future responsibilities to that child if it turns out not to be yours. If you state in any way that you both will see this through regardless of paternity you may well be handcuffing yourself permanently. So be wary about any decisions. You should listen to her more than speak to her when it comes to her and your future.


----------



## TornNBroken

Machiavelli said:


> Three rounds .45 ACP 230 grain JHP. Two center of mass, one to the head if he's still coming after you.
> 
> It's called "self-defense."


So I should escalate this to the point that I might have to kill a guy? Right. That makes a lot of sense.

And again...for what? For some revenge? Like making a guy lose his job will make up for what he has participated in with my W?

You're losing some credibility with me Mach.


----------



## PieceOfSky

> I'm just saying, all that stuff I've worked for IS incentive to try and make it work. No?


Surely it is incentive.

But i am starting to see that in my life, my tendency to take punches for her and/or from her have been making the stuff I've worked for harder to achieve and retain. "When I give you my strength, I make you weaker."

In my case, I flinch at the notion of kisa, and think that me having a misinformed/misguided notion of what it means to be a partner/man is more apt. All I ever wanted was to have someone to love, and I've wanted to do it honorably well. But somewhere I absorbed that self-sacrifice would work and is often required? 

I dunno. YMMV.


----------



## TornNBroken

Machiavelli said:


> It ain't about her prefrontal cortex. Women don't choose who makes them lubricate.


We're not talking about sex man. The other poster is insinuating that she wanted to leave me for this guy, but he didn't want to be with her, so that's why she confessed.

We're talking choice of life partner here, not who gets her excited for random meaningless sex.


----------



## JCD

TornNBroken said:


> I really dont think I have that type of mentality though. While, yes, I do care for her and have concern for how she feels, I do think I'm focusing on myself above all here. I have put so much into our relationship and our lives these past 12 years, it'd be a lot to give up. I have the pretty wife, the two dogs, the nice big house, the 2 nice cars, great job, and now a bouncing baby on the way. Yeah, I know that's mainly superficial stuff, but its a lifestyle I had pictured for myself and worked hard for. It would be a shock to me to go from that to, single-recently divorced, with no child, or a "part-time child," living in an apartment somewhere and trying to date.
> 
> I'm not saying that I'm gonna R just to cling to what may now be a false picture of happiness, I'm just saying, all that stuff I've worked for IS incentive to try and make it work. No?



Every other post has been to defend her. So maybe you need to do a bit more soul searching on this front.

I can actually buy the selfish reasons for staying together better than the other. She SEEMS to be doing some heavy lifting. Is she going to any counseling? I might have missed that post. Has she spoken to either of the mothers? What are your thoughts on that?

Are you still living in a hotel?

I think you were wise to take a few days off. You don't need the guilt of botching a procedure on someone else due to mental distress.

Let us know whatever else you need.

Just to let you know, I can point you out to FOUR threads off the top of my head where guys were fearful of exactly the life you are so concerned about. All four found dates, if not relationships almost immediately (a few months) after...and none of them were doctors.

So no, you will not be consigned to the outer darkeness if things don't work out. Sweet Polly Purebread turned out to be human after all. VERY human. So bear that in mind if/when she tries to play on that in any future interactions. And trust is a thing of the past. Her account is now overdrawn and she has a ways to go just to get to zero.

I do not hope one way or another regarding the parentage of your child. If it's yours, you have a chance to cleave to a woman you say you love. If it isn't, then you can cut loose from a person who betrayed you in ways which used to get people killed in the old days.

But yes, she confessed to you. Give that all the credit it deserves..and not a smidgeon more.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> I really dont think I have that type of mentality though. While, yes, I do care for her and have concern for how she feels, I do think I'm focusing on myself above all here. I have put so much into our relationship and our lives these past 12 years, it'd be a lot to give up. I have the pretty wife, the two dogs, the nice big house, the 2 nice cars, great job, and now a bouncing baby on the way. Yeah, I know that's mainly superficial stuff, but its a lifestyle I had pictured for myself and worked hard for. It would be a shock to me to go from that to, single-recently divorced, with no child, or a "part-time child," living in an apartment somewhere and trying to date.
> 
> I'm not saying that I'm gonna R just to cling to what may now be a false picture of happiness, I'm just saying, all that stuff I've worked for IS incentive to try and make it work. No?


Yes. It is incentive enough.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> So I should escalate this to the point that I might have to kill a guy? Right. That makes a lot of sense.
> 
> And again...for what? For some revenge? Like making a guy lose his job will make up for what he has participated in with my W?
> 
> You're losing some credibility with me Mach.


You asked "what happens if comes after me?" If he comes after you, you defend yourself. I never told you to escalate anything. If he "comes after you" he has escalated. As for revenge, self defense against an attacker is not revenge. This is basic civics. Do you know what your right of self defense is? For a guy who is 6'3", you seem little...unsure of yourself.

Now, making a guy lose his job, is also not revenge. It's called being a good citizen and looking out for your neighbor by removing a predator. If someone steals my property and lists it on craigslist, is it revenge if I report him to the police.

seriously. if you're going to be hanging around with human beings, you need to learn:scratchhead: how to take of yourself.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> We're not talking about sex man. The other poster is insinuating that she wanted to leave me for this guy, but he didn't want to be with her, so that's why she confessed.
> 
> We're talking choice of life partner here, not who gets her excited for random meaningless sex.


That's what I've been trying to tell you: you don't do it for her. You are the paycheck. She rationally selects your wallet, but autonomously selects somebody else's d!ck.


----------



## TornNBroken

SomedayDig said:


> Yes. It is incentive enough.


Really? I don't think its enough. I need to feel that we can truly be in love again to make any of that other stuff worth saving. But it DOES factor in a bit.


----------



## TornNBroken

Machiavelli said:


> That's what I've been trying to tell you: you don't do it for her. You are the paycheck. She rationally selects your wallet, but autonomously selects somebody else's d!ck.


Dude, you're not comprehending something here. Some poster was making the argument that the only reason that she told me was that she was HOPING to leave me for the OM, but OM was not willing to commit to her. LEAVE ME FOR HIM, not have sex on the side while I continue to provide for her. I was saying that is idiotic and doesn't fit with ANYTHING that she has said about why she has done what she has done. There has never been anything about her wanting a deep, meaningful relationship with another guy to the point that she wanted to abandon ship. You're not paying attention.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> Really? I don't think its enough. I need to feel that we can truly be in love again to make any of that other stuff worth saving. But it DOES factor in a bit.


I'm responding to all of the stuff you've done to make things the best they can be throughout your life and your marriage. 

Look man, I've been married for 13 years. March 2012 I caught my wife in a 5 year long f'ng affair. Do you think in any way, shape or form that all the work I had done piloting private jets for extremely weathy and famous people and all of the hard work I put into putting myself in that position, didn't play a factor? Do you think that knowing my 2 children who were sleeping upstairs on the night of Dday that I didn't look up the steps and think about them when I chose not to walk out the f'ng door?

IF I had come to TAM on the night of my Dday every single person would have said exactly as they're saying to you. Divorce the b-tch. She's no good. Blah, f'ng blah. Hell, they said it to her when she joined and then to me when I joined afterwards! 

Guess what? Not a single person from TAM lives in my house or has had any interaction with my wife or I ever. Not once. Ever. So...why would I take heed everything as fact when the intricacies of a marriage - something that hardly any poster here thinks about - why would I listen to them with blanket statements of "Divorce her"? I wouldn't. I didn't.

Hey, man...if you wanna stay and try to reconcile with your wife then fine by me. You wanna divorce her and go your own way then fine by me. I'm just saying to remember than not a single person who has posted in this thread has a f'ng clue as to what you and your wife's TRUE relationship is. All a lot do is create innuendo. And that serves no purpose at all.

No. Your wife is no different than a wife who had a one night stand or my wife who had a 5 year long affair. They're guilty of betrayal at its most basic and disgusting form.

Yet YOU and YOU alone are the one who will live with whatever decision you make regarding how to move forward.

Good luck. Whatever you choose.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> Dude, you're not comprehending something here. Some poster was making the argument that the only reason that she told me was that she was HOPING to leave me for the OM, but OM was not willing to commit to her. LEAVE ME FOR HIM, not have sex on the side while I continue to provide for her. I was saying that is idiotic and doesn't fit with ANYTHING that she has said about why she has done what she has done. There has never been anything about her wanting a deep, meaningful relationship with another guy to the point that she wanted to abandon ship. You're not paying attention.


I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying nor am I disagreeing with what the other poster is saying. Although what he proposes seems unlikely, and it may be he's completely barking up the wrong tree, it has been known to happen.

I want you to consider the very strong possibility that your wife may never have the kind of raw sexual attraction for you that she has for other guys.

How do you feel about that?

I'm praying that her DNA test disqualifies you. You're obviously a good guy, and I think you deserve happiness with a good woman. I don't know that your wife can step up to the plate on that one.


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> I've been pondering this...
> 
> My fears....I don't know this guy. What if he's a psycho. What if I get him fired and he snaps? What if he comes after me? What if he goes after her (and the baby)? What if he won't leave us alone?
> 
> What benefit does it do me personally if this random guy I don't know gets fired? And is that benefit worth the risk?
> 
> Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I don't want to escalate an already sh!tty situation.


You have every right to be concerned, and choose what is in your best interest.

IMHO, you do have the "right" to expose him and doing do is a move supporting all that is good in this world.

If he were an internist that made a move during an otherwise clinical procedure, I think most would feel a bit of motivation to report him for the benefit of future patients and the integrity of the profession and practice. If he's some sort of licensed massage therapist for an employer running a respectable business trying to help people, then maybe his licensing board and employer and customers would appreciate the reveal.

Closer to home, though, maybe it is in your interest to reveal in order to help your wife see you will always reveal, no matter how pissed anyone might get.

But, absolutely there are trade offs, and please do what is best for you.

Fwiw, I had similar fears about reporting my housekeeper for stealing my meds (what if she went nuts on me or my kids, or had a less-friendly drug dealing associate).


----------



## TornNBroken

Thanks Dig. I really appreciate that. Its so hard to filter everything. My head is still spinning, so sometimes its easy for my to latch on to something that someone on here says cause they seems so sure of what they are saying. But other times I feel like "fvck you, you don't know me or my wife." I AM really thankful though for EVERYONE's comments. Even the one's I don't agree with are helping me as they are all making me think and helping to add clarity to my situation. So thank you everyone.


----------



## SomedayDig

There ya go, Torn. That's the good - read all the comments and see all the angles. Then choose for YOU...not TAM. Hell...f-ck TAM when it really comes down to it. They ain't you OR your wife.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Just have say ... sorry Torn. Every cheating situation just kills me and yours is pretty tough.

You had talked earlier about what makes this situation particularly heinous. Well, while I think cheating is heinous, this isn't any worse than many others. 

I think there are a couple of things that have me worried for you about this situation. If this had been the Florida thing, it would have been a complete betrayal but one that I think is most easily recovered from when caught. If you had caught her then and laid down the law and reconciled ... this event may not have happened. 

Now she has done it again. What really has me most concerned is that she did it at a time when the two of you were trying to get pregnant. I remember those days and it would seem to be the least likely time for her to do that even if so inclined. This wasn't a mistake either ... she went to his place and had sex. This wasn't a drunken moment of weakness. She is pregnant and deliberately went to another man's place in order to have sex. That also seems to be very unlikely for a woman who just discovered she is pregnant with her very first child. 

I think people make the suggestion that the OM may have dumped her because we are wondering what made her change her mind and come clean? She went to OM's house to have sex. She didn't have sex once, realize what she is doing and leave. She had sex twice. Then something happened between deciding to have sex the second time to make her have a change of heart and tell you. Maybe it was a moment of clarity on the drive home, maybe it was something else. At this moment we are just speculating based on the information provided. 

It bothers me that this is a pattern of behavior. She may feel complete remorse but there is something within her that allows this to happen and more than once. It leads me to believe that it will happen again, especially WHEN your marriage hits low spots (every single marriage does). Probably not anytime soon but what happens when she hits 40 and the mid-life crisis hits ... notice how many infidelities happen in those years ... 20 years of marriage, early 40's. Would she have felt that guilt and come clean if she wasn't pregnant? These are all questions I ask myself sitting here in cyberspace.

The encouraging thing for me is she is already talking to a counselor. She went through with telling you, even if she had to be encouraged to do it. She seems to have complete remorse and is willing to be an open book. These are good signs.

No, it isn't particularly heinous. In fact, it is pretty standard cheating with a twist ... the pregnancy. I just hope YOU realize that it isn't special ... in other words, what people are telling you is based on their experience with cheaters and it is likely that your wife is no different than the other cheaters.

Personally, I hope you are able to reconcile, especially if the baby is yours.


----------



## WyshIknew

The other thing to consider TNB is you are rightly viewing your situation as a unique happening which is taking place between you your wife and the other man/men. This is understandable as essentially that is what it is to you.

What you must realise is that posters here have seen almost the exact same scenario playing out week after week after depressing week on this site and they have all (with minor variations) followed basically the same script.

You will get many different opinions on what to do but as Dig says, it is your marriage and your life to do with as you will.

Please look at the advice you are getting here. Some of it will be a little off the wall and I think you can safely ignore the "burn the witch burn her" type comments.

Many of the long term 'grounded' posters on here will offer you similar sounding advice. It is advice that has been honed from years of dealing with this crap.

Look at the advice, discard the obviously extreme advice but really seriously consider the concensus of opinion. It's become the concensus of opinion for a good reason.


----------



## jim123

TornNBroken said:


> Ya know, I understand that you all think you know exactly what has happened and that you are just filling me in on the stuff that I "cant see." But its getting a little tired some. I'm sorry, but nothing about my situation suggests that my WW has any emotional attachment to any of these men. Why the fvck would she be wanting to leave me for a fvcking $10/hr-making massage man-***** when I'm 10x the person he'll ever be.
> 
> From all I can gather, she has issues with impulse control and self esteem...she's not a moron.


There is a thread by FishflyDoc where the wife did leave her husband who is a Dr for a total loser. She does get a nice monthly payment.

I am only looking to help you find answers. It makes no sense for her to have sex with him twice then drive home and confess. Something is a miss and we only propose so you can ask questions.

At times like this a BS is not thinking clearly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TornNBroken

Well, a little update here. She decided to tell the rest of the story to the friend who already knew about FL and move in with her for the time being. I'll be going back to our house tomorrow.

....maybe being home will give me a different perspective on things, as staying in a hotel always make me feel a bit 'off' anyways, if you know what I mean.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I've just been lurking and understand, to a certain extent, your frustration. I am not in your shoes nor do I claim to be.

We have a professor whose wife professor had an affair with an undergrad.

We have an employed guy whose wife left everything for a felon who lives with his mom.

We have the poster whose wife left him for a drug addict.

There is a guy who basically danced around saying he is rich, whose wife was fooling around with a lower income neighbor.

Seriously, your rate of pay, education and status mean NOTHING in affairs. Affairs are full of stupidity and illogical thinking on both sides.


----------



## RyanBingham

TornNBroken said:


> Thanks Dig. I really appreciate that. Its so hard to filter everything. My head is still spinning, so sometimes its easy for my to latch on to something that someone on here says cause they seems so sure of what they are saying. But other times I feel like "fvck you, you don't know me or my wife." I AM really thankful though for EVERYONE's comments. Even the one's I don't agree with are helping me as they are all making me think and helping to add clarity to my situation. So thank you everyone.


TNB,

This was a real I sightful post by Decorum about a WW who "loved her husband" but was a serial cheater. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...r-my-husband-divorcing-me-10.html#post1556125

It struck me when I read it as it gives a fairly good analysis that you may use to think through what you believe love represents in your relationship: romantic vs fatherly. It may not fully fit your scenario but it begs a question what your wife is searching for in other men that she can't find in you...


----------



## JCD

SomedayDig said:


> There ya go, Torn. That's the good - read all the comments and see all the angles. Then choose for YOU...not TAM. Hell...f-ck TAM when it really comes down to it. They ain't you OR your wife.


Yeah. There is a strong strain of 'if she isn't groveling from the get go, if she shows the slightest hesitation to do EXACTLY what you want to do...you need to divorce her ass" at TAM.

Some of this is hard experience. Some of this is bitterness. The ones who reconcile in a soft way don't come here...or don't stay.

I think it ludicrious to think that she would leave you for a massage therapist...unless she somehow got emotionally entangled with him. In which case, you wouldn't have gotten a confession, she'd be leaving a "Dear Torn" letter.

HE certainly didn't want a pregger woman horning in on his action.

Mach's theory of 'the vagina wants what the vagina wants' has slightly more credibility...but Mach is a baker...every answer to every question is 'vagina'....I mean 'bread'.

I still haven't heard a credible explanation as to why she went for FOURTHS to this guy...nor why she confessed. After all, you didn't have a clue. It was wrong the first time she did it...and she knew it then.

Seek your own path to R. But don't take any crap from her. That doesn't mean you can't do wrong. But considering your tone, I highly doubt that will be the problem. The opposite in fact.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> Well, a little update here. She decided to tell the rest of the story to the friend who already knew about FL and move in with her for the time being. I'll be going back to our house tomorrow.


Wow. Did this friend know about the florida hook ups before you did?


----------



## Thoreau

Are you gonna listen more closely now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

JCD said:


> Mach's theory of 'the vagina wants what the vagina wants' has slightly more credibility...but Mach is a baker...every answer to every question is 'vagina'....I mean 'bread'.


Haha. Well, when you've never met any of the parties, you have to play the odds and this one is a serial. Some women, and men, cannot and never will be able to keep their panties on. After she gets her ovaries cut out, she'll probably do just fine when her T level gets down to zero. As Torn says, there was no emotional entanglement here, just sex. Sounds like the vag is behind the wheel to me.


----------



## TornNBroken

Machiavelli said:


> Wow. Did this friend know about the florida hook ups before you did?


Yeah, this is her best friend since childhood, and when I asked if anyone knew about her cheating, she told me that she had told her about FL back in the day. We have been discussing the idea of telling her so that she had a place to go and stay since I'm wasting a lot of money on hotels. We talked today and she decided to tell her everything and take her stuff over there tomorrow.


----------



## TornNBroken

Thoreau said:


> Are you gonna listen more closely now?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Whaddya mean?


----------



## Chaparral

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/search.php?searchid=5352464

I think you should go here and check out Thorburn's problems. His wife's family are Christians aand if I remember correctly her father was a minister and maybe a brother too.


----------



## TornNBroken

chapparal said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/search.php?searchid=5352464
> 
> I think you should go here and check out Thorburn's problems. His wife's family are Christians aand if I remember correctly her father was a minister and maybe a brother too.


Dead link...


----------



## JCD

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, this is her best friend since childhood, and when I asked if anyone knew about her cheating, she told me that she had told her about FL back in the day. We have been discussing the idea of telling her so that she had a place to go and stay since I'm wasting a lot of money on hotels. We talked today and she decided to tell her everything and take her stuff over there tomorrow.


So this friend is definitely HER friend and certainly not YOUR friend at all. Did she give her ANY grief over Florida? No?

And this is the person you want the wife hanging with? The one who kept her secrets.

Well, it's A decision. And getting back in the house is a good thing.

Did you get with the lawyer yet?


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, this is her best friend since childhood, and when I asked if anyone knew about her cheating, she told me that she had told her about FL back in the day. We have been discussing the idea of telling her so that she had a place to go and stay since I'm wasting a lot of money on hotels. We talked today and she decided to tell her everything and take her stuff over there tomorrow.


I hesitate to cry "toxic friend," but I don't think the friend is exactly what you'd call a "friend of the marriage."

You really can't make any decisions or move forward, other than they boilerplate "work on you" "up your SMV" etc etc, until you get your hands on those DNA results. If you turn out to be the father, then you'll have to do the polygraph to find out about those "quiet years." You just have to sit and wait, unless she springs some more explosive revelations on you.


----------



## SomedayDig

Torn...just saying, man...if this friend of hers has known about the affair and never helped by begging her to tell you - then she's not a friend of the marriage. People like that are toxic friends who have no place in your lives at this stage or any one hereafter. I know it sucks because it is a "long time" friend - but it is what it is.

IF you want to truly reconcile.


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> Dead link...


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/67156-i-am-back-gets-worse.html


----------



## TornNBroken

I still haven't decided WHO exactly she needs to be exposed to, and since this girl already knew, it seemed like an okay way to buy time while getting me back into the house. That's all. No, haven't talked to a lawyer yet. Nothing is gonna change until I get the test results, and I'm not risking anything by waiting til then. I know it wouldn't hurt to just call someone, but I haven't done that yet.


----------



## TornNBroken

Machiavelli said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/67156-i-am-back-gets-worse.html


Yeah, I've read through that....

BTW, what's SMV? And why do I need to up it?


Super-Man-Vibe?


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, I've read through that....
> 
> BTW, what's SMV? And why do I need to up it?
> 
> 
> Super-Man-Vibe?


Close. Sexual Market Value. At first, it sounds like kid stuff. Unfortunately, it's pretty much what makes the world go around, as you're finding out slowly.

This is Vox Day's take (a Christian BTW) and probably the best explanation.


----------



## RyanBingham

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, I've read through that....
> 
> BTW, what's SMV? And why do I need to up it?
> 
> 
> Super-Man-Vibe?


Helps defend against krypto-lies. :smthumbup:


----------



## Wiserforit

I'm cautious about the "expose far and wide" principle espoused here. I did not expose the other man, but she failed the ultimatum when I gave it so I filed for divorce right away.

When you meet the next young hottie to replace her, think about how your manner of dealing with this affects her perception of you. A person does not want to come off as a vindictive, malicious prick. But you also want to demonstrate self-respect and decisiveness. 

If you learn enough about him to determine he is not some kind of crazy felon, and if you are trying for reconciliation, then it seems to me things weigh towards informing his company. There has to be an absolute prohibition on this with clients so he's going to be fired, as he should be. Your wife won't be the only one he is preying upon. She will see you mean business and that the consequences of her actions are damaging in every direction, including towards whoever she is having an affair with.


----------



## SomedayDig

Okay. LOL. Sexual Market Value.

Sounds like a bunch of f'ng Sally's who need to feel good about themselves. Sorry guys, but this is silly stuff. If ya's really buy into it, then okay...but it's pretty silly.

I'm an alpha according to this thing. I'm tall. Good looking. Have low body fat and close to the "golden ratio" stuff. I flew Jack Black, Aerosmith, Christina Agulerra (sp), Charlize Theron and the owners of the NY Mets (for years). A lot of women come on to me, especially when I was in all kinds of countries and states as a pilot.

Guess what? My wife still had a f'ng affair.

In the end...this alpha sh-t means nothing.


----------



## Chaparral

TornNBroken said:


> Dead link...


I clicked on it in your response and it worked. ??????????


----------



## whatslovegottodowithit?

chapparal said:


> I clicked on it in your response and it worked. ??????????


Dead to me too :scratchhead:


----------



## Wiserforit

SomedayDig said:


> Okay. LOL. Sexual Market Value.
> 
> Sounds like a bunch of f'ng Sally's who need to feel good about themselves.



Unfortunately there is a lot of acronym-laden puffery around here that takes fairly mundane ideas that already have names and makes them sound like a part of some great new science in bedding women. 

So what used to be sex appeal becomes "Sexual Market Value" because that is nearly a 100% increase in word length (from 9 to 17 letters). But by using the acronym SMV instead of saying the words, you pretend to have this secret insider knowledge. 

The paradox is of course taking _more effort _to convey _less information_, which is the exact opposite of science. Bloviation is a fitting description of listening to this kind of acronym-speak and you will find its greatest concentration in advocates of pick-up artist bunk.


----------



## Machiavelli

SomedayDig said:


> Okay. LOL. Sexual Market Value.
> 
> Sounds like a bunch of f'ng Sally's who need to feel good about themselves. Sorry guys, but this is silly stuff. If ya's really buy into it, then okay...but it's pretty silly.
> 
> I'm an alpha according to this thing. I'm tall. Good looking. Have low body fat and close to the "golden ratio" stuff. I flew Jack Black, Aerosmith, Christina Agulerra (sp), Charlize Theron and the owners of the NY Mets (for years). A lot of women come on to me, especially when I was in all kinds of countries and states as a pilot.
> 
> Guess what? My wife still had a f'ng affair.
> 
> In the end...this alpha sh-t means nothing.


Read a little closer. Men tend to overrate themselves, and the "ranks", if you will, don't mean what you seem to think. Do you have a group of sycophant men following you around singing your praises waiting for orders? Then you might be an Alpha. If so it doesn't guarantee you anything other than a line of willing women wanting to go for a few rides. *Pure Alphas can't keep women, *because they lack the balancing beta/delta traits.


----------



## SomedayDig

Machiavelli said:


> Read a little closer. Men tend to overrate themselves, and the "ranks", if you will, don't mean what you seem to think. Do you have a group of sycophant men following you around singing your praises waiting for orders? Then you might be an Alpha. If so it doesn't guarantee you anything other than a line of willing women wanting to go for a few rides. *Pure Alphas can't keep women, *because they lack the balancing beta/delta traits.


Actually, yes. I do. Pretty much all of my male friends, including guys who ride with one of the largest motorcycle clubs in the world AND the Freemasons. I'm looked to as the guy in the know and the guy they listen to and come to for advice.

It isn't an over-rating issue, to be honest. Just the way it is. I've been in the Freemasons less than a year and I'm an officer in my Lodge. In my MC I am the Chaplain that the International President has spoken to for advice on Club issues that affect men the world over.

As far as this stuff goes, I'm as alpha as alpha is or does. Not blowing smoke, either. It's just the way it is.

If a woman or a man is poised to have an affair, they're gonna have an affair and it doesn't matter your test levels or your vaginal ways...it's gonna f'ng happen.

Why?

Cuz in the end it's got abso-f'ng-lutely NOTHING to do with YOU as a person so much as it does the offending party's issues.


----------



## aug

Machiavelli said:


> That's what I've been trying to tell you: you don't do it for her. You are the paycheck. She rationally selects your wallet, but autonomously selects somebody else's d!ck.


I dont think OP has clicked on to this yet?


----------



## Machiavelli

Wiserforit said:


> Unfortunately there is a lot of acronym-laden puffery around here that takes fairly mundane ideas that already have names and makes them sound like a part of some great new science in bedding women.
> 
> So what used to be sex appeal becomes "Sexual Market Value" because that is nearly a 100% increase in word length (from 9 to 17 letters). But by using the acronym SMV instead of saying the words, you pretend to have this secret insider knowledge.
> 
> The paradox is of course taking _more effort _to convey _less information_, which is the exact opposite of science. Bloviation is a fitting description of listening to this kind of acronym-speak and you will find its greatest concentration in advocates of pick-up artist bunk.


Say sex appeal. Sex rank. Attraction. Male Status Attraction per BBC. who cares? 

If you think social science writing is low on the fog index, you haven't read much of it.


----------



## Machiavelli

SomedayDig said:


> Actually, yes. I do. Pretty much all of my male friends, including guys who ride with one of the largest motorcycle clubs in the world AND the Freemasons. I'm looked to as the guy in the know and the guy they listen to and come to for advice.
> 
> It isn't an over-rating issue, to be honest. Just the way it is. I've been in the Freemasons less than a year and I'm an officer in my Lodge. In my MC I am the Chaplain that the International President has spoken to for advice on Club issues that affect men the world over.
> 
> As far as this stuff goes, I'm as alpha as alpha is or does. Not blowing smoke, either. It's just the way it is.
> 
> If a woman or a man is poised to have an affair, they're gonna have an affair and it doesn't matter your test levels or your vaginal ways...it's gonna f'ng happen.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Cuz in the end it's got abso-f'ng-lutely NOTHING to do with YOU as a person so much as it does the offending party's issues.


That's all very nice. I'm glad you're scoring high in reading comprehension. As Walter Brennan used to say, "No brag, just fact."

Nevertheless, nymphomania and willful contempt aside, I think there is a process of devaluation of the H by the WW that occurs before, during, and sometimes continues after an affair with R. YMMV. Bell Curve. I think upping sex rank can never be a bad idea.


----------



## Wiserforit

SomedayDig said:


> A lot of women come on to me, especially when I was in all kinds of countries and states as a pilot.


Supercub driver here. Over 2,000 hours of strictly off-airport bush flying. 

But it was mostly dead moose, caribou, and fish on board so I did not have a lot of sex with the passengers.


----------



## SomedayDig

I'll agrree that upping a sex rank is never a bad idea. If I was an overweight slob that my hot-wife was with, I would be worried.

My honest assessment in this realm is purely one that the alpha trait does NOT guarantee a f'ng thing. I'm living proof. Regret will tell you right now, as she sits across the couch from me, that it had nothing to do with her attraction or loss of such that caused her affair.

It was her sh-t. Not mine.

Today, 1+ year after Dday, she has realized what her own blinders did to our marriage. THOSE blinders is what caused her affair. THOSE f'd up desires and selfish issues is the heart of her affair.

My being a man of the house, alpha charged guy honestly had nothing to do with it.

The paint brush is good for some.

Not all.


----------



## SomedayDig

Wiserforit said:


> Supercub driver here. Over 2,000 hours of strictly off-airport bush flying.
> 
> But it was mostly dead moose, caribou, and fish on board so I did not have a lot of sex with the passengers.


Reminds me of a story I heard a long time ago.

A pilot begins training in a Cub. Moves to a C-172 and then a Citationjet. Then goes to the Air Force Academy in Colorado to become an F-16 driver. From there he progresses to NASA as a test pilot and ultimately the pilot of the Space Shuttle.

As he looks down on the marvel that is the Earth, he longs for the days of flying at 65MPH in his Cub.

As pilots...we are never satisfied.


----------



## Myka

Wiserforit said:


> Supercub driver here. Over 2,000 hours of strictly off-airport bush flying.
> 
> But it was mostly dead moose, caribou, and fish on board so I did not have a lot of sex with the passengers.


But you had some?


----------



## Wiserforit

SomedayDig said:


> As he looks down on the marvel that is the Earth, he longs for the days of flying at 65MPH in his Cub.
> 
> As pilots...we are never satisfied.


Our joke up here is that the husband and wife are fighting over money for the house or money for an airplane. 

Husband says "you can't hunt moose with a house". 
Wife says "Oh yea, well you can't fvck an airplane".

Sorry for the derail.


----------



## happyman64

Torn

Glad you are going home.

I know you are getting a lot of advice from the crew.

The key right now is time. Use it well.

Let your emotions even out for a little while.

R or D is possible. But it really depends on your wife.

And yes she did come partially clean. There will always be more.

But know this. Your wife is broken. And you cannot fix her.

She has had multiple OM. People that you know.

And only she can fix her own issues. She has to be willing to get good counseling and find out why she does this.

Because Affairs not only hurts the marriage but it hurts her as well. And the "Rinse, Lather, Repeat" scenario is the sign of a person with serious issues.

You can encourage her to get help. And there is nothing wrong with letting the families know of her issues and ask them to support both of you during these troubling times.

Good luck on the paternity test. 

You and your wife are in my prayers.

HM64


----------



## barbados

TornNBroken said:


> Ya know, I understand that you all think you know exactly what has happened and that you are just filling me in on the stuff that I "cant see." But its getting a little tired some. I'm sorry, but nothing about my situation suggests that my WW has any emotional attachment to any of these men. Why the fvck would she be wanting to leave me for a fvcking $10/hr-making massage man-***** when I'm 10x the person he'll ever be.
> 
> From all I can gather, she has issues with impulse control and self esteem...she's not a moron.


So why then DID your wife lower herself and have sex with men that you feel are clearly "beneath you" ???


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> I still haven't decided WHO exactly she needs to be exposed to, and since this girl already knew, it seemed like an okay way to buy time while getting me back into the house. That's all. No, haven't talked to a lawyer yet. Nothing is gonna change until I get the test results, and I'm not risking anything by waiting til then. I know it wouldn't hurt to just call someone, but I haven't done that yet.


I don't know if either set of parents are in the area, but if so, maybe it would be possible for her to stay with them, at most admitting to a minor "marital tiff". Maybe you could hide the troubles completely for awhile by coming up with some mundane excuse like your having some decorating done and didn't want her to be exposed to the paint fumes, or were having the house sprayed for ants. Just a thought. Please don't feel the need to respond.

And again, I'm a newbie. But it seems to me that even she must understand that the more time she spends away from those with an interest in preserving the chances for R alive, the more risk there is she'll be tempted again. Perhaps you could talk directly with her about her friend's track record of not defending your marriage, if you think this friend is too neutral (or worse) and adds to the risk.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

barbados said:


> So why then DID your wife lower herself and have sex with men that you feel are clearly "beneath you" ???


Some people do this because it makes them feel better about themselves in relation to the other person. Also sometimes its an act of "power" against in this case the betrayed spouse. The responsible one who is the voice of reason.


----------



## CH

TornNBroken said:


> Well...
> 
> Have you cheated with anyone else since we've been married? That means anything from kissing to sex. *Yes
> *


So, what more is there to talk about, serial cheater.

She's coming clean because the kid might not be yours. Better to trap you now hoping the child will be yours.

So, she answered yes to cheating before, my question is

HOW MANY OTHER TIMES? 
And how many OTHER MEN were there?

I feel the tip of the iceberg scenario here.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Torn,

I just wanted to say I think it must be hard to hear some of the things folks say around here, and, sometimes especially how they say them.

I think sometimes things are said bluntly so as to have a shocking effect to wake one up to possibilities they've never had "the opportunity" to imagine before. I'd say, such tactics have their time and place, and can be quite a gift, but I could also see how too much of this could be overwhelming.

Anyways, it'd be regrettable if there has been too much dropped on you rather harshly here such that it backfires and makes it harder to hear whatever you need to hear.

With that on mind, I just want to say there's no doubt in my mind your wife has many wonderful qualities, and you seeing those and responding to them reveals something good about you. You are not here because she is "bad" person, or because you rank lower on some imaginary scale. You seem to be here because you have shared much together, and even now that includes positive feelings for each other and an unwillingness to let go of a possible future together. I wish you peace as you ponder which path to take, and the strength to be brutally honest with yourself. May you find a path that considers her virtues and beauties, but still honors first and foremost yours.


----------



## JCD

CH said:


> So, what more is there to talk about, serial cheater.
> 
> She's coming clean because the kid might not be yours. Better to trap you now hoping the child will be yours.
> 
> So, she answered yes to cheating before, my question is
> 
> HOW MANY OTHER TIMES?
> And how many OTHER MEN were there?
> 
> I feel the tip of the iceberg scenario here.


Here is a tip. If you are going to read a multi page thread like this, at least cover all the OP's replies. Generally you get all the important information there.

But for the record, she smooched up to a POS once. Next day she went to a party, got drunk, and supposedly found herself doing the horizontal fandango with a guy who like his women like he likes his coffee: full of liquor.

Lastly, she had 4 sexual encounters with a masseuse.

This ignores dating peccadilloes (two) which involved kissing...supposedly.


----------



## Shaggy

TornNBroken said:


> Ya know, I understand that you all think you know exactly what has happened and that you are just filling me in on the stuff that I "cant see." But its getting a little tired some. I'm sorry, but nothing about my situation suggests that my WW has any emotional attachment to any of these men. Why the fvck would she be wanting to leave me for a fvcking $10/hr-making massage man-***** when I'm 10x the person he'll ever be.
> 
> From all I can gather, she has issues with impulse control and self esteem...she's not a moron.


Sorry, but women only have sex with men for two reasons:

Emotions and money,

Since they didn't pay her, she definitely did it for emotional reasons and if she's telling you otherwise she's lying.

My advice: move on and upgrade to a woman who values you and her relationship with you. Your wife cheated right when it should have been the closest time as a couple, she clearly values them emotionally more then she does her marriage to you.


----------



## Shaggy

TornNBroken said:


> "P**** what? P**** ********.
> When you were gone in Florida, we didn't have sex, but I'd sleep in the same bed as **** and we went dancing a few times and made out. Then he left and I had a one night stand with one of his friends (J**** ****). He wore a condom. Then a week later I went to a party at L**** bf house and N*** ****** showed up. I was asleep passed out drunk on the couch and he carried me into a room and locked the door and I told him no multiple times and was on my period and I felt like he took advantage of me, but I also felt like a dirty ***** from the week before so felt like it didn't matter. I also kissed a guy on NYE 2011-12 that I didn't even know.
> 
> It took me 2 years to forgive myself for what I did in Florida. I hated myself and even felt like I pushed you away in some ways because I knew I didn't deserve you. I was depressed and lonely. I promised myself I'd never do it again. So then when I did it again with P****, I realized i needed help. i couldn't keep doing this. I had to come clean to you. I'm tired of lying to you. You deserve more than this. I dont want to keep anything from you. You are my best friend, my favorite person in the world, my other half and I'm pleading for your forgiveness."
> 
> FYI, when I was in school in FL, I had to leave for some rotations across the country.



She's not a Christian by any measure. She is a confirmed serial cheater who has been cheating on you without care,or remorse.

When her main cheating partner is out of town, she's jumping into bed with anyone available, who knows who's kid this is? She may have even gotten pregnant before and has abortions for all you know, or will ever know.

And she slept with him agin after confessing just last Tuesday? Did I get that right?

Forgiving Ida Christian thing to do, but only for those that actually are remorseful. Remorse means they'll never do it again. Does any one here seriously think she won't cheat again? How about before the next month is over? She may even be having men over to your house tonight given her history.

Advice: file for D, and expose the OM and her wide and far to warn others about the type of people they truly are at their moral core.

If the child is yours either petition for full custody or see if you can give it up for adoption. Someone with her morals cant be a fit. mother.


----------



## TornNBroken

Alright, Fvck you bud. I'm sick of hearing all of you people's bitter imaginations running wild. Thanks for help.

Later.


----------



## Shaggy

JCD said:


> Here is a tip. If you are going to read a multi page thread like this, at least cover all the OP's replies. Generally you get all the important information there.
> 
> But for the record, she smooched up to a POS once. Next day she went to a party, got drunk, and supposedly found herself doing the horizontal fandango with a guy who like his women like he likes his coffee: full of liquor.
> 
> Lastly, she had 4 sexual encounters with a masseuse.
> 
> This ignores dating peccadilloes (two) which involved kissing...supposedly.


That is very much the MO of a serial cheater. She's jump from man to man, one of them while her main OM was unavailable , and she has multiple encounters with the main OM even after she found out she was pregnant.

Sorry, JCD, I just don't see why you think the OP should turn a blind eye to her multiple cheating episodes with multiple men , that she's admitted to. Who knows how many she hasn't admitted to, 

And for record she first said she had sex twice, and now it's at least 4 times.

This smells more and more like she's gotten knocked up by one of the OM, offered herself sexually to the main OM again to rope him into keeping her and his kid, and when he dumped her hard , she's run back to her husband because she needs a father to pay for the kid.

She's hoping the OP will feel like a white knight and raise the OM kid. But she's already shown shell continue cheating now and in the future by her own choice to cheat with the OM even after she git knocked up.

Her actions are not that of a remorseful wife. Who love her husband. She's following the play book to a T of a cheater who's lover has told her he has zero interest in her kid or her while she is pregnant.


----------



## Shaggy

TornNBroken said:


> Alright, Fvck you bud. I'm sick of hearing all of you people's bitter imaginations running wild. Thanks for help.
> 
> Later.


Look, we aren't the person who has betrayed you. We are people who do want to you see the honest situation for what it is. So please don't get cross with us. We are not the one who took a vow and broke it.

We however are. People who have been through such awful betrayal and can clearly see the difference between what you want to be, and what is going on.

Please don't toss away out hard learned experience even if it does hurt to hear. 

Many here have faced your troubles and come out better, stronger, and happier after facing the pain and betrayal.


----------



## Cabsy

Do things for yourself, and because you want to do them, and not because you feel you must. If the kid is yours you do have some obligation there, but you don't owe that woman anything. It sounds like she has some serious problems and she needs to be brought back into the real world with consequences and counseling. And even then, your relationship just might not be workable, healthy, or the right thing to do for yourselves or the child.

Sounds like you're going to be just fine after the dust settles, so long as you don't let yourself become a slave to your circumstances. You're still in good shape with out without her. If the kid's yours, it's yours. If you want to help that kid have a bright future, more power to you. Keep the confidence, the integrity, and ditch the martyrdom.

Best of luck.


----------



## jim123

TornNBroken said:


> Alright, Fvck you bud. I'm sick of hearing all of you people's bitter imaginations running wild. Thanks for help.
> 
> Later.


Don't give up on the board so soon. We can be strong but as the facts come in there will be a lot of help and support.

In the end our opinion does not matter. I hope we can help you with questions and maybe some answers.

Only one person knows the truth at this time. You have done a good job in getting control.

Do not dismiss anything. The important thing is you get the information you need to help yourself whether it is R or D.

It is critical that you know everything so this does not drag on for months or evev years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## carpenoctem

Torn:

Please remember: *you are only the father of the child. You are not HER father, to put up with irresponsible / egregious behavior time and again. *You and she are spouses – an equal-right, equal-duty relationship. You shouldn’t pull HER weight.

(If the child is indeed yours. Seems very unlikely. It’s more likely that she confessed early enough for you to ‘get over it’ and be ready to share the burden of raising another man’s child, by the time he / she arrives).

She is betting everything on your inherent goodness, moral integrity and religious forgiveness.

And rightly so. *She has judged you well.*



Hope you can live with it, and through it.

Please have your fount of forgiveness full and ready. She most likely will tap it for more, in the future.



Sorry to sound so negative. It’s because I feel you deserve much more.

*
Wish you luck, if you decide to part ways.
Wish you MUCH more luck, if you try to reconcile. *


*(In cases such as yours (serial infidelity), divorce and life after
will be way less difficult than reconciliation and life after).*


Time for me to effoff, I guess.


----------



## PieceOfSky

It seems to me that its been a bit of a sip from a firehose here, and, pending any new reports or questions from OP Torn, there is little that can be said that hasn't already been said to Torn.

I say that, not because I want to rudely cut anyone off, and I say it knowing full well some of my posts have been a bit redundant. I say that because I don't know what Torn needs from anyone here at this moment, or how best it can be provided.

Perhaps we should each stay silent unless we feel there is something new to be said, or until Torn asks for some very specific input?

Consider my questions rhetorical. If you feel the need to take me to task for this, please pm me or invite me to a new thread to hash it out. I by no means intend anyone disrespect. Just sensing this free form unmoderated discussion approach tends to break down after awhile when so many people, understandably, want to help, and when there isn't really much new information rolling in.


----------



## whatslovegottodowithit?

People here speak the truth of what works and what doesn't. The truth may not be what you want to hear. The truth is what you need from your W. The truth is painful. The truth shall set you free! 

This is a pro-marriage site and we want this to work for you, but realize that the reminder of past low esteem, low impulse may be growing in your W right now! If you can accept that bastard child as a gift from God, you are far stronger than most. I sincerely hope it is yours, the red flags and facts bring paternity into question...I was there and the waiting for results blows! We can't make time go faster and we are torn with the prospect of having our own child with a less than faithful spouse. I wanted to NOT be the father at the time, but can't imagine my life without my oldest son (divorced that woman, but had to get a court order for her to comply with DNA testing).

I appreciate your profession and respect your religious beliefs. There are however some things we can't fix, heal, or pray get better. You seem like a 'nice guy' who loves his W and marriage deeply so it makes sense you want to 'make her better'. Sometimes a better you works. Sometimes the wayward self-corrects. Sometimes consequences are needed. Sometimes it's a combination of all those things.

If all the advice here seems harsh, realize it's because your situation has many, many, many contributing factors that almost always lead to divorce. You need to do what's best for you guy. Now take that anger and apply it to saving/fixing your marriage and getting the outcome you desire!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

TornNBroken said:


> I still haven't decided WHO exactly she needs to be exposed to


That depends. Do you want to ensure she never sees this guy again? Then tell her family, her best friends, her pastor, his wife/family/friends. Once the 'secret' is out in the open, the affair loses its allure, and they have a decision to make.


----------



## warlock07

TornNBroken said:


> I really dont think I have that type of mentality though. While, yes, I do care for her and have concern for how she feels, I do think I'm focusing on myself above all here. I have put so much into our relationship and our lives these past 12 years, it'd be a lot to give up. I have the pretty wife, the two dogs, the nice big house, the 2 nice cars, great job, and now a bouncing baby on the way. Yeah, I know that's mainly superficial stuff, but its a lifestyle I had pictured for myself and worked hard for. It would be a shock to me to go from that to, single-recently divorced, with no child, or a "part-time child," living in an apartment somewhere and trying to date.
> 
> I'm not saying that I'm gonna R just to cling to what may now be a false picture of happiness, I'm just saying, all that stuff I've worked for IS incentive to try and make it work. No?


Sunk cost fallacy. Read about it. Too caught up in the dream to see what is happening to you.

Remember, you will have a relationship for atleats another 30-40 years. Altleast 3 times the length of your relationship with her. And she already cheated on you with 5-6 guys(That she told you of. Remember, she initially told you that anymore revelations will hurt your relationship with her. So there could be more). So that is one guy every couple of years. You are still stuck with her because you do not realize how good normal relationships can be. Imagine your relationship with her without all her affairs. In a normal relationship there will be hard times but you can usually trust your partner with your back. Not in this case though...You will have to remain paranoid and suspicious for the rest of your life with her.


----------



## warlock07

TornNBroken said:


> I've been pondering this...
> 
> My fears....I don't know this guy. What if he's a psycho. What if I get him fired and he snaps? What if he comes after me? What if he goes after her (and the baby)? What if he won't leave us alone?
> 
> What benefit does it do me personally if this random guy I don't know gets fired? And is that benefit worth the risk?
> 
> Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I don't want to escalate an already sh!tty situation.


No one will fight your battles.There are time when one needs to stand up for themselves. This is one of those. This guy had an affair with your wife and you are worried about him coming after you ?


----------



## Rags

So much, so fast - normally this sort of info takes weeks/months to come out, not hours/days.

No wonder TnB is reeling somewhat - there has been no time to process, or go through the (obligatory) grief cycle.

So, no amount of 'tough love', 'sage advice' or anything else going to work, I suspect - TnB will need time. Time to grieve, time to absorb the harsh truths he's been getting - and time to think.
Also, time to get the further information that he's waiting on.

Probably time for everyone to back off, and let him say what he wants, and ask for advice if he wants it.

No amount unsolicted advice, coming at the rate it's being given, can be dealt with sensibly.

FWIW, I think he's done pretty well, so far, all things considered, and better than many others. It might not be the 'dream BH script' - but then this is real life, not a soap opera, and it's his life to life as best he can.
All yours, TnB - good luck.


----------



## larry.gray

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> I concur.
> 
> Remember there have been cases that have appeared on here where the WS, aborts the child, effectively removing ALL EVIDENCE/PROOF. It is something only a woman can do and men can do nothing about. Abortion will kill the blameless, or shall we call "it" the 'blameful' because "it" ruined everything and all the plans, such horror.


My SIL got away with it for a while. She got pregnant by the OM, when my brother already had a vas. So while she's adamantly against abortion, she's trapped.

She does it. Then over the next two years goes into a severely declining mental state.

I don't know how my brother stayed with her. Most of all, when they are talking about "how wonderful they are" I do wonder.


----------



## bfree

Torn,

I too am a Christian but too often today Christians do not really apply the lessons that God wants us to learn. Too many times Christians are reading from the book of political correctness rather than the Good Book. What is the lesson God is trying to teach us through the story of Hosea? Think about it very carefully. Additionally remember that God divorced Israel because Israel would not stop wh0ring herself out and worshiping other gods. Now I am not suggesting that your wife is a wh0re or that you absolutely must get a divorce. What I am saying is that you have a responsibility as a Christian to hold to God's teachings and to make sure that any wife you have chosen to be with does so as well. Part of being a good Christian is to call out immoral behavior when you see it. Part of being good Christian man is to lead your wife and family and make sure that you not only set a good example of moral behavior but help to ensure your wife and children do as well. If you decide to reconcile with your wife you MUST do everything in your power to prevent further immoral behavior. Especially since she has all but admitted that she is not in control of her actions when it comes to sex with other men. If this means you expose her behavior to others so as to help her maintain a moral code then so be it. If this means you put constraints on her in order to constrain her philandering then so be it. But you need to be able to see yourself in that role long term. Can you see yourself acting as her moral and spiritual jailer for life without building up resentment? If not then remember that you have every right and responsibility to divorce so that you maintain YOUR moral center. It is a very big decision and should not be taken lightly. Think it over and see where you see yourself, not just now but in 5, 10, 20 years. And most of all be honest with yourself. After all, you are the only one who truly has to live with you.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

bfree said:


> Guess what. I STILL wanted to reconcile with her...SHE was the one that didn't want to R so we got divorced. *It was probably the nicest thing she ever did for me.*


My ex had the decency to tell me that she couldn't be the kind of wife that I wanted.

This was the third nicest thing that she ever did for me. First and second being giving me two beautiful children.


----------



## turnera

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Some people do this because it makes them feel better about themselves in relation to the other person. Also sometimes its an act of "power" against in this case the betrayed spouse. The responsible one who is the voice of reason.


 In affair terms, it's called "affairing down."


----------



## Machiavelli

It's tough. WW was his one and only and he drank deeply from the false and unbiblical Sunday School kool aid about sex and marriage. She never bought in. It will take him some time to process it all. Probably when new revelations come to light or the paternity test is negative.


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> It's tough. WW was his one and only and he drank deeply from the false and unbiblical Sunday School kool aid about sex and marriage. She never bought in. It will take him some time to process it all. Probably when new revelations come to light or the paternity test is negative.


DNA test is this morning should be interesting if she spills the beans today. Good luck Torn whatever you decide to do.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

Machiavelli said:


> It's tough. WW was his one and only and he drank deeply from the false and unbiblical Sunday School kool aid about sex and marriage. She never bought in. It will take him some time to process it all. Probably when new revelations come to light or the paternity test is negative.


In the heathens point of view she had the best of both worlds. A loving and supportive husband and household and she could play the field with zero repurcussions. She probably was happy as a lark and discombobulated when the husband "acts" like it is a serious violation.


----------



## InlandTXMM

Torn I know you are hurting now and the advice feels like "piling on". You just had your world turned upside down and I know you are overwhelmed, in shock, and just reeling from the hard decisions you now face that you never asked for or wanted.

I think the advice here, especially those posts where you feel your wife is being unfairly attacked, are meant to be pre-emptive strikes against the kind of manipulation you are about to face. WS's are amazingly good playwrights; they can make the best marriage sound like it was a decade of emotional torture and loveless agony, to help rationalize what they did out of pure selfishness and lack of boundaries.

I sense also, based on the posts recently, a rising sense of panic in you that the marriage is about to be over. You are frightened of being alone, you feel tremendous pull to stay and rescue her (as I did as a Christian Nice Guy), and you want to do right by a baby that may or may not be yours.

We get all of that. 

I'm with several of the posters here who tell you, ultimately, it's your decision to stay or leave. I chose to stay, but I didn't have nearly the complicated situation you do. My WW's was an EA and very well might have been a PA but I can never be sure. I weighed the 19 years we had been together and decided it was worth something to try to work it out. 

Nearly a year on, however, it's been a VERY hard road. You will trigger out of nowhere. You will doubt everything she says. The urge to check her phone and email every hour will be there. Every time she is not home exactly when she said, you will wonder. For months, every time her phone chimed that she had a text message, I could feel serious stress rise up. There are days I feel tremendous love and days when I hate her guts. And I didn't even have to know about multiple men who have been inside my wife, one just a week ago. 

You have so much to process and make decisions upon. You've been given very good advice here so far (yes, some wildly speculative but based on compassion for you and their own experiences). None of us believed we would ever be here. And yet, by actions of the people we trusted most, here we are.

What finally helped me find some peace was the scriptures about the seasons in Ecclesiastes. Be sure you listen closely to the lessons. There was, for me, a time for war, then came the time for peace. The same is for you. There is a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather them. *Don't try to rush to reconciliation until your time to grieve and heal has passed. You deserve this time. She OWES you this time. Take it.*


From Ecclesiastes 3:

There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:

a time to be born and a time to die,
*a time to plant and a time to uproot*,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
*a time to tear down and a time to build,*
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
*a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,*
*a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,*
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
*a time to tear and a time to mend,*
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
*a time to love and a time to hate,*
a time for war and a time for peace.



Praying for you, bro!


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

It shouldn't take decades for a man to learn that "nice" guys finish last.

I hope that the child is not TNB, children are the blameless victims of parents' mistakes and it has been that way since the existence of man kind, and man must move on to progress not digress. 

Hopefully the light will change when the DNA results return, at 29 and 6'3 (6'8 when standing on his wallet) he can attract for himself a stunning and mature 21-25 year old within the next several years.


----------



## ironman

TornNBroken said:


> *Alright, Fvck you bud. I'm sick of hearing all of you people's bitter imaginations running wild. Thanks for help.
> 
> Later.*


Ummm, I think he's gone. It's too bad. He seemed like he needed to hear other opinions ... and that's all they are, opinions. I guess in the middle of something as traumatic as he's going through, it's easy to become angry at anyone for even a minor perceived annoyance.

It just seemed like he was talking himself out of doing what he needs to do and he was setting himself up for failure.

Some people have a hard time seeing outside of their own bubble. You can't help wondering if these personality traits contribute to getting in these situations in the first place. It is what it is.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Wish him the best is all we can do.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

ironman said:


> Ummm, I think he's gone. It's too bad. He seemed like he needed to hear other opinions ... and that's all they are, opinions. I guess in the middle of something as traumatic as he's going through, it's easy to become angry at anyone for even a minor perceived annoyance.
> 
> It just seemed like he was talking himself out of doing what he needs to do and he was setting himself up for failure.
> 
> Some people have a hard time seeing outside of their own bubble. You can't help wondering if these personality traits contribute to getting in these situations in the first place. It is what it is.


The amount of pain and devestation he can face from not heading our warnings is immeasurable. How many peoples LIVES have been completely ruined by such an event?

However, before it happened to me, I would have thought many of the remarks were incredible, it can't happen to me, that's just unrealistic, why would someone want to do this to someone.

It's all about the psychology. I've been on both sides of the cheaters coin, so I really know.


----------



## InlandTXMM

Based on his previous reactions to things he didn't want to hear, I believe he will cool off and then come back. Particularly as more TT starts coming to light. 

Nearly every BS follows their script, too. Especially the Nice Guy ones.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

InlandTXMM said:


> Torn I know you are hurting now and the advice feels like "piling on". You just had your world turned upside down and I know you are overwhelmed, in shock, and just reeling from the hard decisions you now face that you never asked for or wanted.
> 
> I think the advice here, especially those posts where you feel your wife is being unfairly attacked, are meant to be pre-emptive strikes against the kind of manipulation you are about to face. WS's are amazingly good playwrights; they can make the best marriage sound like it was a decade of emotional torture and loveless agony, to help rationalize what they did out of pure selfishness and lack of boundaries.
> 
> I sense also, based on the posts recently, a rising sense of panic in you that the marriage is about to be over. You are frightened of being alone, you feel tremendous pull to stay and rescue her (as I did as a Christian Nice Guy), and you want to do right by a baby that may or may not be yours.
> 
> We get all of that.
> 
> I'm with several of the posters here who tell you, ultimately, it's your decision to stay or leave. I chose to stay, but I didn't have nearly the complicated situation you do. My WW's was an EA and very well might have been a PA but I can never be sure. I weighed the 19 years we had been together and decided it was worth something to try to work it out.
> 
> Nearly a year on, however, it's been a VERY hard road. You will trigger out of nowhere. You will doubt everything she says. The urge to check her phone and email every hour will be there. Every time she is not home exactly when she said, you will wonder. For months, every time her phone chimed that she had a text message, I could feel serious stress rise up. There are days I feel tremendous love and days when I hate her guts. And I didn't even have to know about multiple men who have been inside my wife, one just a week ago.
> 
> You have so much to process and make decisions upon. You've been given very good advice here so far (yes, some wildly speculative but based on compassion for you and their own experiences). None of us believed we would ever be here. And yet, by actions of the people we trusted most, here we are.
> 
> What finally helped me find some peace was the scriptures about the seasons in Ecclesiastes. Be sure you listen closely to the lessons. There was, for me, a time for war, then came the time for peace. The same is for you. There is a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather them. *Don't try to rush to reconciliation until your time to grieve and heal has passed. You deserve this time. She OWES you this time. Take it.*
> 
> 
> From Ecclesiastes 3:
> 
> There is a time for everything,
> and a season for every activity under the heavens:
> 
> a time to be born and a time to die,
> *a time to plant and a time to uproot*,
> a time to kill and a time to heal,
> *a time to tear down and a time to build,*
> a time to weep and a time to laugh,
> a time to mourn and a time to dance,
> *a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,*
> *a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,*
> a time to search and a time to give up,
> a time to keep and a time to throw away,
> *a time to tear and a time to mend,*
> a time to be silent and a time to speak,
> *a time to love and a time to hate,*
> a time for war and a time for peace.
> 
> 
> 
> Praying for you, bro!


You hit the nail on the head. Using eccliesaistes, he could separate himself into a separate residence and take care of himself. The issue is going to take time on it's own to die down. It's a very very painful situation, no one could have explained to me how much pain it is. I think he needs to get on rebuilding his life as soon as he is able.

He can't help his wife, she needs to help herself. If she really is a heathen, her point of view will not align with his reality. She's likely going to keep going after the dopamine hits until she gets into serious trouble or a serious sequence of pain.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

InlandTXMM said:


> Based on his previous reactions to things he didn't want to hear, I believe he will cool off and then come back. Particularly as more TT starts coming to light.
> 
> Nearly every BS follows their script, too. Especially the Nice Guy ones.


I know our stories sound too hard to believe. He has no idea of the mindset he's up against, and it just does not undo itself easily at all. That took me many years of excruciating pain to accept.


----------



## tom67

Hopefully she showed up at the hospital for the test today.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

ironman said:


> Ummm, I think he's gone. It's too bad. He seemed like he needed to hear other opinions ... and that's all they are, opinions. I guess in the middle of something as traumatic as he's going through, it's easy to become angry at anyone for even a minor perceived annoyance.
> 
> It just seemed like he was talking himself out of doing what he needs to do and he was setting himself up for failure.
> 
> Some people have a hard time seeing outside of their own bubble. You can't help wondering if these personality traits contribute to getting in these situations in the first place. It is what it is.


He's not even in the middle. He's at the very beginning of this hell tunnel.

Had I known what I know now, I would have said let one of your OM take care of you and have her move out, or I would move out into a different area as soon as possible and let her stay in the residence, not pay a single bill, not provide any emotional support and take care of myself and focus on my life.

But we try to help our spouses.


----------



## badbane

I remember the way he probably feels. It sucks being torn between the shreds of loyalty you have left for your wife and the cold reality creeping in. I don't feel bad for torn because he is choosing to hold onto that loyalty despite the truth staring at him the face. I will not feel bad for him when he other shoe drops because he will likely go back and ignore the thread and try to be the good husband. Maybe he will pull some half hearted 180. The truth is most of us aren't imagining anything they are stories we have read so much that we just take names and locations out and repost them. I almost wish we could start a thread with the most common bogus stories and the total truth that ended up coming to light.


----------



## tom67

I just couldn't raise another man's kid, but that's just me. To each his own. He will have to be a warden for the rest of his life if he decides to r.


----------



## InlandTXMM

DaddyLongShanks said:


> You hit the nail on the head. Using eccliesaistes, he could separate himself into a separate residence and take care of himself. The issue is going to take time on it's own to die down. It's a very very painful situation, no one could have explained to me how much pain it is. I think he needs to get on rebuilding his life as soon as he is able.
> 
> He can't help his wife, she needs to help herself. If she really is a heathen, her point of view will not align with his reality. She's likely going to keep going after the dopamine hits until she gets into serious trouble or a serious sequence of pain.


Agreed. And trying to force the seasons (we call it rugsweeping around here), won't work. There is a season for his anger and hurt that must come to its conclusion before any real hope of healing and reconciliation can begin.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

badbane said:


> I remember the way he probably feels. It sucks being torn between the shreds of loyalty you have left for your wife and the cold reality creeping in. I don't feel bad for torn because he is choosing to hold onto that loyalty despite the truth staring at him the face. I will not feel bad for him when he other shoe drops because he will likely go back and ignore the thread and try to be the good husband. Maybe he will pull some half hearted 180. The truth is most of us aren't imagining anything they are stories we have read so much that we just take names and locations out and repost them. I almost wish we could start a thread with the most common bogus stories and the total truth that ended up coming to light.


Part of the truth is they KNOW we are not going to leave, and they are just going to cover their tracks better. With each transgression your disapproval, your arguing is looking weaker and weaker and weaker. And in a severe case, she is issuing blows intentially with her actions. She's cheating on you to hurt you, because you are "weak". Who knows, I think we can all agree that the proper method to handling these situations does not match what you "feel" you should do at all, it's the opposite.


----------



## JCD

ironman said:


> Ummm, I think he's gone. It's too bad. He seemed like he needed to hear other opinions ... and that's all they are, opinions. I guess in the middle of something as traumatic as he's going through, it's easy to become angry at anyone for even a minor perceived annoyance.
> 
> It just seemed like he was talking himself out of doing what he needs to do and he was setting himself up for failure.
> 
> Some people have a hard time seeing outside of their own bubble. You can't help wondering if these personality traits contribute to getting in these situations in the first place. It is what it is.


I am calling bullsh*t on this one. This isn't directed at you per se, ironman, but to an attitude.

I just came from another thread in the private section where people were theorizing that a guys wife was spreading to all and sundry, gearing up for gangbangs, and was wh*ring for the neighbors just to keep them quiet...or whatever.

There is speaking the truth in love. There is also projection and spending a bit too much time reading bad cheating wife erotica. There is snark and misrepresenting the situation and being hurtful, masking all of this bitterness and bile under 'telling the truth as I see it' if by 'truth' you mean the absolute WORST analysis of a situation frequently without any factual backing.

What do we have here on this thread? People are speculating that this woman's self confessed 3 affairs (THREE! *3* with two 'iffy' kissing contacts is suddenly 'that he knows of'. That she, in fact, has had MANY more lovers. How many? Tens? Hundreds? Why not say 'thousands'? I'm sure she had 15 minutes a day without being under her husband's watchful eye.

So...how about we stick to the facts as we know them instead of going into flights of fancy. How about we be SENSITIVE to the feelings of the guy involved...granted, sometimes I'm overly blunt, but when we constantly DRIVE the people seeking help away, it's not on them. 

It's on us.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

JCD said:


> I am calling bullsh*t on this one. This isn't directed at you per se, ironman, but to an attitude.
> 
> I just came from another thread in the private section where people were theorizing that a guys wife was spreading to all and sundry, gearing up for gangbangs, and was wh*ring for the neighbors just to keep them quiet...or whatever.
> 
> There is speaking the truth in love. There is also projection and spending a bit too much time reading bad cheating wife erotica. There is snark and misrepresenting the situation and being hurtful, masking all of this bitterness and bile under 'telling the truth as I see it' if by 'truth' you mean the absolute WORST analysis of a situation frequently without any factual backing.
> 
> What do we have here on this thread? People are speculating that this woman's self confessed 3 affairs (THREE! *3* with two 'iffy' kissing contacts is suddenly 'that he knows of'. That she, in fact, has had MANY more lovers. How many? Tens? Hundreds? Why not say 'thousands'? I'm sure she had 15 minutes a day without being under her husband's watchful eye.
> 
> So...how about we stick to the facts as we know them instead of going into flights of fancy. How about we be SENSITIVE to the feelings of the guy involved...granted, sometimes I'm overly blunt, but when we constantly DRIVE the people seeking help away, it's not on them.
> 
> It's on us.


Based on my time at TAM, it's been mostly positive and I've learned a lot. But most of us have a tendency to work overtime trying to fill in the blanks. We've all seen the lists about how "if she says they only kissed, it means that he was tongue fvcking her in the bathroom"... In these situations, it is more than likely that the OP does not fully grasp the lengths his/her spouse will go to minimize the actions. This is good advice for when the BS finds the cheating and knows for a fact that the spouse has been up to no good. This line of thinking is much less effective when a potential BS is trying to figure out what has been going on - if anything. When the situation is very much in doubt, then telling him/her that A, B and C is going on, and someone claims "I know it beyond a shadow of a doubt"...this is where it gets too speculative and counterproductive. 

We never get the chance to see the full context of what's going on. And while I agree that there are a number of scripts that are followed when talking about an affair, the people involved are still different enough that it is difficult to determine if the WS is truly remorseful or not. We can't judge either way because we simply rarely know enough. All we can do is provide guidance of what might be happening.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Based on my time at TAM, it's been mostly positive and I've learned a lot. But most of us have a tendency to work overtime trying to fill in the blanks. We've all seen the lists about how "if she says they only kissed, it means that he was tongue fvcking her in the bathroom"... In these situations, it is more than likely that the OP does not fully grasp the lengths his/her spouse will go to minimize the actions. This is good advice for when the BS finds the cheating and knows for a fact that the spouse has been up to no good. This line of thinking is much less effective when a potential BS is trying to figure out what has been going on - if anything. When the situation is very much in doubt, then telling him/her that A, B and C is going on, and someone claims "I know it beyond a shadow of a doubt"...this is where it gets too speculative and counterproductive.
> 
> We never get the chance to see the full context of what's going on. And while I agree that there are a number of scripts that are followed when talking about an affair, the people involved are still different enough that it is difficult to determine if the WS is truly remorseful or not. We can't judge either way because we simply rarely know enough. All we can do is provide guidance of what might be happening.


While our guesstimations may not be spot on, they are usually closer than what the betrayed can imagine in a million years. Unless you have been through this before, you have no idea.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

DaddyLongShanks said:


> While our guesstimations may not be spot on, they are usually closer than what the betrayed can imagine in a million years. Unless you have been through this before, you have no idea.


Your instinct wants you to show your spouse that you love them, and you will work really hard to show this. It is exactly the wrong thing to do in this circumstance. There must be serious consequences for the action almost like a child. We know the spouse is not a child, but you cannot reward such a bad treatment with a positive reward. It makes it much worse.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Your instinct wants you to show your spouse that you love them, and you will work really hard to show this. It is exactly the wrong thing to do in this circumstance. There must be serious consequences for the action almost like a child. We know the spouse is not a child, but you cannot reward such a bad treatment with a positive reward. It makes it much worse.


I don't disagree. However, I think there tends to be a disconnect between the time the OP is trying to gather evidence until he/she finds the proof to confront. I would say it's generally not helpful to the OP to say things like "I bet 10 guys are at a hotel room with your wife running a train" or "your husband is probably acting like Bacchus in a hotel room with a sea of women and wine" when the BS is trying to put the pieces together to figure out the truth of whether the spouse is up to no good or not. I believe the instincts of the typical TAM regular are good, but the rampant speculations about what may or may not be happening is an issue that does not help the BS IMHO.

To your point, no I don't have direct experience with infidelity, but have seen a case or 2 of it in my extended family.


----------



## SomedayDig

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I don't disagree. However, I think there tends to be a disconnect between the time the OP is trying to gather evidence until he/she finds the proof to confront. I would say it's generally not helpful to the OP to say things like "I bet 10 guys are at a hotel room with your wife running a train" or "your husband is probably acting like Bacchus in a hotel room with a sea of women and wine" when the BS is trying to put the pieces together to figure out the truth of whether the spouse is up to no good or not. I believe the instincts of the typical TAM regular are good, but the rampant speculations about what may or may not be happening is an issue that does not help the BS IMHO.
> 
> To your point, no I don't have direct experience with infidelity, but have seen a case or 2 of it in my extended family.


Innuendo is not cool. It serves absolutely zero help or guidance for a betrayed spouse when they first arrive at TAM.


EDIT: I say this because my OWN story got so much sh-t thrown around with innuendo about Regret it was mind boggling. Luckily, I'm "alpha" enough that I lead instead of follow.


----------



## PieceOfSky

JCD said:


> I am calling bullsh*t on this one. This isn't directed at you per se, ironman, but to an attitude.
> 
> I just came from another thread in the private section where people were theorizing that a guys wife was spreading to all and sundry, gearing up for gangbangs, and was wh*ring for the neighbors just to keep them quiet...or whatever.
> 
> There is speaking the truth in love. There is also projection and spending a bit too much time reading bad cheating wife erotica. There is snark and misrepresenting the situation and being hurtful, masking all of this bitterness and bile under 'telling the truth as I see it' if by 'truth' you mean the absolute WORST analysis of a situation frequently without any factual backing.
> 
> What do we have here on this thread? People are speculating that this woman's self confessed 3 affairs (THREE! *3* with two 'iffy' kissing contacts is suddenly 'that he knows of'. That she, in fact, has had MANY more lovers. How many? Tens? Hundreds? Why not say 'thousands'? I'm sure she had 15 minutes a day without being under her husband's watchful eye.
> 
> So...how about we stick to the facts as we know them instead of going into flights of fancy. How about we be SENSITIVE to the feelings of the guy involved...granted, sometimes I'm overly blunt, but when we constantly DRIVE the people seeking help away, it's not on them.
> 
> It's on us.



Amen. And, I don't think I've used that word this way for 25 years.


I think there are a few different problems manifested in this thread. I've only been here on TAM for a week or two reading. Yet, I've seen another misdeed done, quiet similarly, to someone who came here hurting. So far, in both cases, it *seems* that those who came here needing help left, still struggling to get their head around what was happening in real life, and a bit stunned by what just happened to them here. 

Of course, I have no way of knowing if that was their experience, but that's what it would have felt like to me.

I think the organizers of TAM need to be thinking of ways to improve this. It can be done. It should be done. Otherwise, what's the point?

I don't want to derail this thread any further, in case Torn comes back by some miracle, but couldn't resist getting it off my chest.


----------



## SomedayDig

PieceOfSky said:


> Amen. And, I don't think I've used that word this way for 25 years.
> 
> 
> I think there are a few different problems manifested in this thread. I've only been here on TAM for a week or two reading. Yet, I've seen another misdeed done, quiet similarly, to someone who came here hurting. So far, in both cases, it *seems* that those who came here needing help left, still struggling to get their head around what was happening in real life, and a bit stunned by what just happened to them here.
> 
> Of course, I have no way of knowing if that was their experience, but that's what it would have felt like to me.
> 
> I think the *POSTERS* of TAM need to be thinking of ways to improve this. It can be done. It should be done. Otherwise, what's the point?
> 
> I don't want to derail this thread any further, in case Torn comes back by some miracle, but couldn't resist getting it off my chest.


I like what you said, but I wanted to change one little detail


----------



## PieceOfSky

SomedayDig said:


> I like what you said, but I wanted to change one little detail



Absolutely! How did I miss saying that. Afterall, JCD just said "It's on us" and I wholeheartedly agree. Thanks for pointing that out.

(Probably best discussed in another thread -- but, I suspect a policy change or website software feature-or-two might help keep things helpful for the OPs.)


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Plan 9 from OS said:


> To your point, no I don't have direct experience with infidelity, but have seen a case or 2 of it in my extended family.


I don't have direct experience playing golf but I've seen Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson play.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I don't disagree. However, I think there tends to be a disconnect between the time the OP is trying to gather evidence until he/she finds the proof to confront. I would say it's generally not helpful to the OP to say things like "I bet 10 guys are at a hotel room with your wife running a train" or "your husband is probably acting like Bacchus in a hotel room with a sea of women and wine" when the BS is trying to put the pieces together to figure out the truth of whether the spouse is up to no good or not. I believe the instincts of the typical TAM regular are good, but the rampant speculations about what may or may not be happening is an issue that does not help the BS IMHO.
> 
> To your point, no I don't have direct experience with infidelity, but have seen a case or 2 of it in my extended family.


I got a multi-year education in the matter. I see how lives are damaged and changed for ever by such a "normal" and "fun" thing in our society.


----------



## WyshIknew

SomedayDig said:


> Okay. LOL. Sexual Market Value.
> 
> Sounds like a bunch of f'ng Sally's who need to feel good about themselves. Sorry guys, but this is silly stuff. If ya's really buy into it, then okay...but it's pretty silly.
> 
> I'm an alpha according to this thing. I'm tall. Good looking. Have low body fat and close to the "golden ratio" stuff. I flew Jack Black, Aerosmith, Christina Agulerra (sp), Charlize Theron and the owners of the NY Mets (for years). A lot of women come on to me, especially when I was in all kinds of countries and states as a pilot.
> 
> Guess what? My wife still had a f'ng affair.
> 
> In the end...this alpha sh-t means nothing.


Don't want to jack TNB's thread as I hope he comes back and the wolf pack wind their necks in a bit.


Seen you mention this before Dig. I think (I could be wrong, yes I know shocking) that you miss one thing out.

By your own account you were away from home many times while you were doing your pilot thing and if I recall correctly had a dream of setting up some sort of business with a friend so you could be home more often. I don't recall what the business was.

You can be as Alpha as you like, you can be Beta, Epsilon, Gamma or Omega.

It don't mean beans if you are not home. How is amazing alphaness going to affect anything if you aren't there?

A thoroughly beta personality would have more chance than you of avoiding an affair as he was home more often to c0ckblock.

Not a 'dig' at Dig but just wanted to point out something you may have overlooked.


----------



## Wiserforit

I'll just give tom my empathy at this point, no matter how the paternity test turns out.

A tough row to hoe, and a lot of us have been there.


----------



## theroad

TornNBroken said:


> Well, I was gonna reply individually, but since there's so many posts....
> 
> So, first off, she confessed outta the blue. I really had no concerns. We haven't had the perfect marriage, and we'd been working on things like being more affectionate to one another, but overall I thought things were probably a 7.5/10. She has said things for a long time about wanting to "feel the butterflies" again. And we've had long talks about how you go through stages of love and that butterfly/infatuation state usually isn't around >10 yrs into a relationship and how that's not a bad thing....but she's always wanted those feelings that I guess I wasn't creating.
> 
> As far as background with cheating, there was a time in high school when she kissed another guy (a long term friend who was also in a relationship) after we had been dating a year. We had a little hiccup, but moved on pretty quickly...Then, in college (year of dating #4) she ended up kissing a guy from work and we had a couple of rough months. Now this...
> 
> I feel like she likes attention from other guys (which I don't/didn't find all that alarming, cause hey, who doesn't like to be flattered by the opp sex), and I chalked up the two previous instances to curiosity. Since we each have only really had one serious relationship, we've had talks about "I wonder what its like to be with someone else" since we both really had no comparison. We've even said that we wished we met later on in life, cause we knew we belonged together, but just wish we had experienced a bit more before settling down.
> 
> Anyways...the thing that makes this even more difficult is that both of our families live is the same city. We are all very close, our parents are good friends. We have mutual work/social friends, but we spend a lot of time with our siblings and their spouses and kids. I can't imagine telling people about this and then reconciling things. How could I take her to a family event without her thinking that everyone hates her and without me thinking that everyone must think I'm a doormat. Does a successful reconciliation ALWAYS involve telling everyone you know?
> 
> We had been trying to have a kid for a few months, and I was there for all the negative preg tests, and then the eventual positive one.
> 
> Financially, I make about 5 times as much as her, and thats one of my concerns. I worked my but off to go through undergrad and grad school to get a great career in order to provide a certain life for my family. If I were to get a divorce, she would have custody I assume (she's not a deadbeat by any means) and I don't know what kind of life he would have.
> 
> I know a lot of you are like "F her, shes a liar and a cheat" but its hard for me to just feel that way. I love her and it would be incredibly difficult for me to add anymore pain to her. She truly is crushed already by what she did.
> 
> She started going to counseling about 6 weeks ago, because she said she had some free sessions with her company's health plan, and she said she had just been feeling kinda depressed even though she "knew she had no reason to be sad." When she confessed she said to me that she doesn't know why she would do this, but knew the only way she could stop was if she came clean, and had been going to counseling to try and stop.
> 
> 
> FYI, taco bell didn't help the sick stomach feeling



WW cheated on you twice and you still married her?

WW's trickle truth all the time. You can not believe that she only did the OM twice.

You must get STD tests and even more important to get a DNA paternity test.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

WyshIknew said:


> Don't want to jack TNB's thread as I hope he comes back and the wolf pack wind their necks in a bit.
> 
> 
> Seen you mention this before Dig. I think (I could be wrong, yes I know shocking) that you miss one thing out.
> 
> By your own account you were away from home many times while you were doing your pilot thing and if I recall correctly had a dream of setting up some sort of business with a friend so you could be home more often. I don't recall what the business was.
> 
> You can be as Alpha as you like, you can be Beta, Epsilon, Gamma or Omega.
> 
> It don't mean beans if you are not home. How is amazing alphaness going to affect anything if you aren't there?
> 
> A thoroughly beta personality would have more chance than you of avoiding an affair as he was home more often to c0ckblock.
> 
> Not a 'dig' at Dig but just wanted to point out something you may have overlooked.


I agree.

They can cheat on you if THEY are traveling or if YOU are traveling, regardless.


----------



## TornNBroken

Listen, I get the concept of skepticism. And I have a HEALTHY amount of it right now. I just dropped nearly $2k today to get prenatal paternity and STD testing despite my WS promising me there's pretty much zero chance the kid isn't mine, and that she already had an STD test since the last time we had sex (all negative). So I get it. I do. Is there a possibility that there are other guys I don't know about? Sure. Do I think its likely at this point? Honestly, I don't. And none of you know my wife, so you have nothing but your own experiences to pull from. Could I be wrong? Absolutely, I GET THAT. 

BUT what I don't appreciate (and thanks to the people that have pointed this out) is the comments that just want to rip to shreds anyone who's been unfaithful and make them out to be the fvcking wh0re of Babylon. Swearing to me that she's already had multiple abortions and that she's sleeping around every other night of the week and being passed around by various men is just sick. You don't know sh!t. You really don't.

And you can say that I'm naive and in time I'll come crawling back and see how right you are. Fine. Believe that all you want. Like I said, I UNDERSTAND that there could be more that I don't know. But with everything that's happened, how its played out, what's been said and how its been said, I would put my money on the side of the truth being out there already. My WS had no reason to confess about the people in FL to me, aside from the fact that I told her if I found out about any other guys I'd leave her without a second thought. SOOOOO, if her fear of that caused her to confess to having two ONSs and one making out event/whatever it was, why the hell would she not mention another guy? That doesn't make any sense. Why would she say to herself..."Well, I'll tell him about these 4 guys, but I just cant confess to a 5th."??? That doesn't make sense.

Anyways, like I've said before, I DO appreciate you guys not sugar-coating things and trying to open my eyes to various possibilities, 'cause that is helpful...it makes me more certain that I'm thinking through all the possible scenarios. But to spew filthy thoughts about her being the dirtiest wh0re that ever lived as utter fact is not only not helpful, its hurtful to me - cause I still care about her, and even if I divorced her, I'd probably clock you for saying something like that about her in front of me. So If you truly have something constructive and helpful to say, say it. If not, don't.....and if you think your comments like that are actually helpful, then you really need to reevaluate yourself and your bitterness towards YOUR WS.


----------



## tom67

Torn you had a day from hell. Do not make any quick decisions but there is a lot of good info you have been given. This early in the marriage it is somewhat disturbing that's all. You deserve better take your time.


----------



## TornNBroken

.


----------



## Wiserforit

You don't bear the signs of rationalization and rug-sweeping that some of these posters' comments are implying. 

Much of what you have said and done is quite commendable.


----------



## TornNBroken

Thanks.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> Listen, I get the concept of skepticism. And I have a HEALTHY amount of it right now. I just dropped nearly $2k today to get prenatal paternity and STD testing despite *my WS promising me *there's pretty much zero chance the kid isn't mine, and *that she already had an STD test since the last time we had sex *(all negative).


The key would be for her to have had the test since the last time she had sex with the other man, not the last time she had it with you.

Did your wife give you a copy of the results of the STD tests she said she took?


----------



## TornNBroken

On a separate note, I'm back at my house and she is with her friend. She texted me and said she forgot her snow boots, so I said it was fine if she came by to get them. I had told her the only way I would come home was if she promised to never drop by unannounced, cause I still think its too hard to see her. Anyways, she told me she was 5 minutes away, so I but her boots out on the porch. I was watching her from upstairs when she showed up and she started crying when she saw the boots on the stoop. I could've just opened the door and handed them to her, but I didn't want to get sucked into a conversation, or her trying to hug me, or something else that I'm not ready for. I dunno, I'm just rambling, but I'm sure there's a point where you can be too harsh, especially if you are gonna reconcile. In fact, that's one of my fears about R, that I'll be bitter and just think I can treat her however I want, cause WTF, at least I'm not cheating on her. Anyone else struggle with this during a R?


----------



## TornNBroken

Will_Kane said:


> The key would be for her to have had the test since the last time she had sex with the other man, not the last time she had it with you.
> 
> Did your wife give you a copy of the results of the STD tests she said she took?


Yeah, she did. And yeah, I thought about that too. I guess they slept together once since she got tested. I mean, the odds that the other guy was cheating on my WS between the test and the last time they had sex seem ridiculously small. I suppose she can get tested again at her next baby appointment...

But if she was truly negative AFTER the last time we had sex, at least I would be in the clear. But like I said, I got tested anyway.


----------



## PBear

Do you feel confident you have the whole story yet? Until you know which way you're leaning, I don't think there's too much wrong with keeping your distance for awhile. And you're not being deliberatively mean.

C


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> On a separate note, I'm back at my house and she is with her friend. She texted me and said she forgot her snow boots, so I said it was fine if she came by to get them. I had told her the only way I would come home was if she promised to never drop by unannounced, cause I still think its too hard to see her. Anyways, she told me she was 5 minutes away, so I but her boots out on the porch. I was watching her from upstairs when she showed up and she started crying when she saw the boots on the stoop. I could've just opened the door and handed them to her, but I didn't want to get sucked into a conversation, or her trying to hug me, or something else that I'm not ready for. I dunno, I'm just rambling, but I'm sure there's a point where you can be too harsh, especially if you are gonna reconcile. In fact, that's one of my fears about R, that I'll be bitter and just think I can treat her however I want, cause WTF, at least I'm not cheating on her. Anyone else struggle with this during a R?


Yes, you have to keep her "consequences" to affair related stuff.

Not like, "you go shovel the driveway because you had the affair."

You should stick to making her throw out all clothes she used with other man, jewelry worn for him, anything that triggers you - music, TV, movies, massages, spas - she gives up those types of things if you have a problem. But stuff that's not affair-related probably is better off left alone.

You may find that she overcompensates in other areas that are not affair-related without even being asked just because she's so grateful you're giving her another chance. I think she already alluded to this when she said all of her gripes were trivial and she wouldn't gripe any more.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, she did. And yeah, I thought about that too. I guess they slept together once since she got tested. I mean, the odds that the other guy was cheating on my WS between the test and the last time they had sex seem ridiculously small. I suppose she can get tested again at her next baby appointment...
> 
> But if she was truly negative AFTER the last time we had sex, at least I would be in the clear. But like I said, I got tested anyway.


This last other man seems particularly slimy to me. The massage therapist. It's not some married guy who is in love with your wife. It's a guy who rubs other women's bodies and takes it wherever he can get it.


----------



## jim123

TornNBroken said:


> On a separate note, I'm back at my house and she is with her friend. She texted me and said she forgot her snow boots, so I said it was fine if she came by to get them. I had told her the only way I would come home was if she promised to never drop by unannounced, cause I still think its too hard to see her. Anyways, she told me she was 5 minutes away, so I but her boots out on the porch. I was watching her from upstairs when she showed up and she started crying when she saw the boots on the stoop. I could've just opened the door and handed them to her, but I didn't want to get sucked into a conversation, or her trying to hug me, or something else that I'm not ready for. I dunno, I'm just rambling, but I'm sure there's a point where you can be too harsh, especially if you are gonna reconcile. In fact, that's one of my fears about R, that I'll be bitter and just think I can treat her however I want, cause WTF, at least I'm not cheating on her. Anyone else struggle with this during a R?


You are the opposite of most BS's on TAM. Most talk tough and act weak. Your actions are strong.

Because of that you will be able to make a decision of what is best for you,. I am glad you stayed on TAM.

In the end it is your decision, Make sure you have all the facts. Talk with your family, you will need them. They can help you.

You disclose so ww gets the help she needs. Yes she is in IC and had the A while it was going on. Mabe a new IC is needed.

Good luck.


----------



## Will_Kane

Even if your clean and she was clean, there is the sex with the other man, so if you do have sex with your wife, you could be infected with an STD.

Why should you take on any risk at all because she cheated on you? 

Also, it's a consequence. If it's embarrasing, good.

What was she thinking about - got STD tested and then slept with him again AFTER that?

If I were you, I'd probably let it slide until you get the results of the paternity test. If you are the biological father, I probably would see if I could get over it and give her one more chance for the sake of the kid. At least give it a try.

If you're not the biological father, I don't know what the laws are like in your state. I remember being shocked the first time I heard someone say that you could be financially responsible for any kids born to your wife, even if you weren't the father.


----------



## TornNBroken

Will_Kane said:


> This last other man seems particularly slimy to me. The massage therapist. It's not some married guy who is in love with your wife. It's a guy who rubs other women's bodies and takes it wherever he can get it.


Yeah, he's the one that's particularly driving me nuts. 37 yrs old, I believe she said he's been divorced before and just broke up with a longtime GF, also sells cars on the side???? Found him on FB, and he looks like a fvcking goober from the one pic he has on there...

He's been to her work and supposedly was "trying to figure out where we lived a few weeks ago" when they were still fooling around. I asked why he would be doing that, and she said, he said "just in case I ever needed to go there for any reason." Guess he was looking at a picture of her on FB that was in our front yard and he saw a street sign....I dunno. 

I still wanna go bust him to his boss and get his ass fired, but still have a lingering fear that he might be psycho (I don't know the guy obviously). I guess when she sent him an email last Wed telling him it was over and to never contact her again, he never wrote back. Which I guess is what she asked, but it doesn't give me any info on his demeanor. It'd be nice to know if he was pissed or if he was just sad, but understood she didn't want a divorce. 

Ugh, I just don't know what to do.

Don't know who I want to expose everything to, don't know if I should confront the guy, don't know if I should try and R if the baby is mine, don't know if I should try and go back to work to get my mind off of things, or if I should just stay home...


----------



## TornNBroken

Will_Kane said:


> Even if your clean and she was clean, there is the sex with the other man, so if you do have sex with your wife, you could be infected with an STD.
> 
> *I don't think I'll have to worry about this anytime soon*
> 
> Why should you take on any risk at all because she cheated on you? *I won't*
> 
> Also, it's a consequence. If it's embarrasing, good.
> 
> What was she thinking about - got STD tested and then slept with him again AFTER that?
> 
> If I were you, I'd probably let it slide until you get the results of the paternity test.
> *I think this is the key....I should know by next Friday they said*


But now, If I already know that I'm most likely gonna leave if its not my kid, and PROBABLY try and R if it's mine, is that already telling...?


----------



## turnera

exposure is solely to stop an affair. Is one still going on?


----------



## 2asdf2

If you can function at work, go back to work.


----------



## jim123

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, he's the one that's particularly driving me nuts. 37 yrs old, I believe she said he's been divorced before and just broke up with a longtime GF, also sells cars on the side???? Found him on FB, and he looks like a fvcking goober from the one pic he has on there...
> 
> He's been to her work and supposedly was "trying to figure out where we lived a few weeks ago" when they were still fooling around. I asked why he would be doing that, and she said, he said "just in case I ever needed to go there for any reason." Guess he was looking at a picture of her on FB that was in our front yard and he saw a street sign....I dunno.
> 
> I still wanna go bust him to his boss and get his ass fired, but still have a lingering fear that he might be psycho (I don't know the guy obviously). I guess when she sent him an email last Wed telling him it was over and to never contact her again, he never wrote back. Which I guess is what she asked, but it doesn't give me any info on his demeanor. It'd be nice to know if he was pissed or if he was just sad, but understood she didn't want a divorce.
> 
> Ugh, I just don't know what to do.
> 
> Don't know who I want to expose everything to, don't know if I should confront the guy, don't know if I should try and R if the baby is mine, don't know if I should try and go back to work to get my mind off of things, or if I should just stay home...


Go to work or do something you love. Stay busy. You should talk to someone. Don't do something like this alone.


----------



## Shaggy

Post the OM on cheaterville.com that way when husband google the guy given their wives massages they'll be warned that he is a slime all who sleeps with his female clients.


----------



## TornNBroken

turnera said:


> exposure is solely to stop an affair. Is one still going on?


No. I just see exposure now as somewhat counterproductive to getting past this (if i decide to try and R). I never discuss other personal marital problems with friends or family. I've always believed that was a personal issue between you and your spouse to deal with. Would drive me nuts when she would complain about something to her mom after a fight (even though her mom sided with me 99% of the time). 

I see it just adding shame and another element of "fvcked up" to deal with. I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine it ever being comfortable around my family if they knew what she had done. I'm already a mom's baby boy, I doubt she'd have the same love for my spouse as she does now. 

So if its truly over....


----------



## TornNBroken

2asdf2 said:


> If you can function at work, go back to work.


Thing is, I THINK I can, but I have moments where something causes me to have a mini melt down. Many times its a tv ad of a baby or something like that, making me think of my potential kid being brought into a sh!tty situation he/she doesn't deserve.

And since I take care of pediatric and neonatal pts, I just don't know if I'm gonna be able to make it through a whole day...


----------



## PieceOfSky

I'm glad you are still here, Torn.

I wonder if there would be an advantage to opening a second thread and moving focus there. I wonder if there is a way to "freeze" this one, or move it somewhere relatively obscure.

Reason being, I could see someone stumbling across this thread, reading the first few pages, and then feeling the need to chime in. Trouble is, you've covered that ground already, perhaps ad nauseum, and they're not likely to add anything you haven't already heard. 

Even if a late arriver reads all 30 pages before feeling informed enough to chime in, it seems likely there will be nothing you haven't already heard and thoughtfully considered, and yet it will be tempting for him or her to say it anyway; I guess we all want to help a bit too much sometimes, or at least sometimes I do!

Maybe starting a new thread will give you better control over what people focus on for you.

Just a thought. No idea if any one has tried this.


----------



## WyshIknew

TNB, hopefully I wasn't one of the 'bad' posters. I certainly didn't intend to be. I was merely pointing out that more often than not there is an ulterior motive for a wayward confessing.

Some of the stuff you have read has been harsh and more than likely just fantasy but I think it did serve a purpose to some extent in that it has alerted you to 'stuff' that although extreme does give you a base line of the worst scenario.

You may or may not be aware but if someone posts something really awful, at the bottom left of their post is a REPORT POST option which you can use to send a message to the mods alerting them of nasty posts.

Largely, I think people aren't being deliberately nasty but they see newbies on here making exactly the same mistakes they did and in their desire to make you aware of the mistakes they get over excited.

A better option maybe that if someone repeatedly posts daft stuff you can, via your user cp, add them to your ignore list and you will not see their posts.


----------



## 2asdf2

TornNBroken said:


> Thing is, I THINK I can, but I have moments where something causes me to have a mini melt down. Many times its a tv ad of a baby or something like that, making me think of my potential kid being brought into a sh!tty situation he/she doesn't deserve.
> 
> And since I take care of pediatric and neonatal pts, I just don't know if I'm gonna be able to make it through a whole day...


I'm sorry, but I don't remember your views on a/depressants. SSRIs helped me enormously to manage my situation at the cost of some mildly bothersome side effects.


----------



## TornNBroken

Like I said, I am thankful for most of the posts, its was just one or two that really rubbed me the wrong way. When I first came here and posted that she had slept with some guy 2 times, everyone told me instantly that there were more than 2 times and more guys. I was like, yeah right, but that pushed me to ask more questions and dig down further into the pile of truth. If people hadn't pushed me then, I may have just dealt with the notion of one guy for a while. So most posts have been helpful and you guys and gals HAVE helped me a bunch in this first week.


----------



## TornNBroken

2asdf2 said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't remember your views on a/depressants. SSRIs helped me enormously to manage my situation at the cost of some mildly bothersome side effects.


Nah, I'm not a big fan of those types of drugs unless they are an absolute last resort. I see them prescribed way too often (IMHO).


----------



## Will_Kane

Only you can judge if going back to work is for you.

Same with the other stuff, but if the kid is yours, I would say at least give it a try to see if you can get over it. You may find that you can't do it, that it's still bothering you a lot, and decide to divorce anyway. If the kid's not yours, it seems it would be really really tough to raise another man's kid. Will you then have to deal with slimeball other man for the rest of your life?

I would only expose to family/friends if she started the affair up again.

I would expose the other man at work and see if I could get him fired. I would take my chances that he's not psycho. I would find out what I could about him and do whatever damage I could legally do to put his life in as much a state of ruin as possible. 

I KNOW it would make ME feel better. 

I also would like to see if he tries to contact my wife, and if she responds. If he didn't contact her, or if she didn't respond, I would tell my wife afterwards anyway just to see what her reaction to it was. If she's going to take up his cause, that's something I'd like to know before I get too far into reconciliation. Because her taking up his cause is completely unacceptable to me.


----------



## carpenoctem

SomedayDig said:


> Your wife is no different than a wife who had a one night stand or my wife who had a 5 year long affair. They're guilty of betrayal at its most basic and disgusting form.



You really believe that, Dig? How do you permute that psychologically / emotionally / sexually?

I am asking because that seems counter to most / all other analogies in human life – say, occasional lying vs inveterate / compulsive lying. One-time / occasional shoplifting for adventure / thrill vs kleptomania. Opportunistic tax evasion vs long-term / frequent tax fraud.

How do you rationalize that belief to yourself? Curious to know.

(Not an affront, Sir. Just curious to know, while we are on the topic).

(I have used negative comparisons only, presuming that Infidelity is a negative thing overall. One could also draw positive / less negative comparisons: Such as: occasional sweet dish vs a sugar binge -- isn't one worse / graver than the other, per se?)

Pray tell.


----------



## TornNBroken

Will_Kane said:


> Only you can judge if going back to work is for you.
> 
> Same with the other stuff, but if the kid is yours, I would say at least give it a try to see if you can get over it. You may find that you can't do it, that it's still bothering you a lot, and decide to divorce anyway. If the kid's not yours, it seems it would be really really tough to raise another man's kid. Will you then have to deal with slimeball other man for the rest of your life?
> 
> I would only expose to family/friends if she started the affair up again.
> 
> I would expose the other man at work and see if I could get him fired. I would take my chances that he's not psycho. I would find out what I could about him and do whatever damage I could legally do to put his life in as much a state of ruin as possible.
> 
> I KNOW it would make ME feel better.
> 
> I also would like to see if he tries to contact my wife, and if she responds. If he didn't contact her, or if she didn't respond, I would tell my wife afterwards anyway just to see what her reaction to it was. If she's going to take up his cause, that's something I'd like to know before I get too far into reconciliation. Because her taking up his cause is completely unacceptable to me.


So I already asked her what she would think about me going to his boss. Her initial response was that "it was my fault and I'd feel really bad cause he'd probably get fired." I told her that was the point, that he needed consequences too. She said his consequence was that she left him and he never gets to see or talk to her ever again." Then, without me saying anything else, she said, "and I'm sure our address is in their (M.E.) system and he could find us...I'd rather we just forget about him." Also, she said "I already have been a little nervous walking to the parking garage at work since we broke things off, and if you went after him, I'd be even more paranoid."

So yeah....of course my not TAM trained mind said, SHE'S PROTECTING HIM!!!! 

But when I try to take my rage outta the picture, it does me no good to do anything to him. This is about me, and her, and the little kid to come....not this douche bag.

But God, I'd love to out him at work, on FB where his friends and family can see it, and where ever else I could fvck up his life a little bit.


----------



## 2asdf2

TornNBroken said:


> Nah, I'm not a big fan of those types of drugs unless they are an absolute last resort. I see them prescribed way too often (IMHO).


As a former Mental Health Professional I was leery of them myself and resisted them until my daughter insisted. Then -lo and behold!- I found them useful. 

Only you can decide when it is a last resort. Remember that pragmatism is a useful stance to have.


----------



## TornNBroken

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> You really believe that, Dig? How do you permute that psychologically / emotionally / sexually?
> 
> I am asking because that seems counter to most / all other analogies in human life – say, occasional lying vs inveterate / compulsive lying. One-time / occasional shoplifting for adventure / thrill vs kleptomania. Opportunistic tax evasion vs long-term / frequent tax fraud.
> 
> How do you rationalize that belief to yourself? Curious to know.
> 
> (Not an affront, Sir. Just curious to know, while we are on the topic).
> 
> (I have used negative comparisons only, presuming that Infidelity is a negative thing overall. One could also draw positive / less negative comparisons: Such as: occasional sweet dish vs a sugar binge -- isn't one worse / graver than the other, per se?)
> 
> Pray tell.


I think they are definitely different.

If my WS had a ONS 2 years ago that she just confessed because of gnawing guilt that finally made her crack, we'd already be in R. 

When you factor in the multiple times, that makes it much harder.

When you factor in the time AFTER she knew she was pregnant...well, that's the one that I don't know if I can ever get over and want to R.

I don't think anyone can equate a one night drunken slip up to a MULTI-YEAR deceptionfest. 

Except Jesus...


----------



## carpenoctem

TornNBroken said:


> On a separate note, I'm back at my house and she is with her friend. She texted me and said she forgot her snow boots, so I said it was fine if she came by to get them. I had told her the only way I would come home was if she promised to never drop by unannounced, cause I still think its too hard to see her. Anyways, she told me she was 5 minutes away, so I but her boots out on the porch. I was watching her from upstairs when she showed up and she started crying when she saw the boots on the stoop. I could've just opened the door and handed them to her, but I didn't want to get sucked into a conversation, or her trying to hug me, or something else that I'm not ready for. I dunno, I'm just rambling, but I'm sure there's a point where you can be too harsh, especially if you are gonna reconcile. In fact, that's one of my fears about R, that I'll be bitter and just think I can treat her however I want, cause WTF, at least I'm not cheating on her. Anyone else struggle with this during a R?




*Torn:

Ironically, it’s more logical to be nicer to her if you are planning to divorce.

If you are planning to reconcile, expressing some harshness of behavior (when heartfelt and spontaneous) might be necessary to vent your hurt and anger, for you to heal, and for her to comprehend / remember.*

You are human too, and you too need to emotionally exhale.

You deserve every ounce of empathy that you overall show your WW, x100.


----------



## carpenoctem

When we say every infidelity situation is different / every WS is diferent, that does not automatically men ‘good different’ (better). It could also men ‘bad different’ (worse).


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> So I already asked her what she would think about me going to his boss. *Her initial response was that "it was my fault and I'd feel really bad cause he'd probably get fired." * I told her that was the point, that he needed consequences too. She said his consequence was that she left him and he never gets to see or talk to her ever again." Then, without me saying anything else, she said, "and I'm sure our address is in their (M.E.) system and he could find us...I'd rather we just forget about him." Also, she said "I already have been a little nervous walking to the parking garage at work since we broke things off, and if you went after him, I'd be even more paranoid."
> 
> So yeah....of course my not TAM trained mind said, SHE'S PROTECTING HIM!!!!
> 
> But when I try to take my rage outta the picture, it does me no good to do anything to him. This is about me, and her, and the little kid to come....not this douche bag.
> 
> But God, I'd love to out him at work, on FB where his friends and family can see it, and where ever else I could fvck up his life a little bit.


She is protecting him. Sorry, it would be unacceptable to me. Her first response was that it was HER fault and she would feel bad FOR HIM. Every other reason came later after you told her her first reason was unacceptable. But her real reason is because she doesn't want to hurt him. She hurt you, but HIM she has to protect.

I would get him fired and while I did it I would tell the owner that your information is on their computer system and you'll be coming after the owner legally if other man gets it. You are putting him on warning that other man might be a threat to you. 

All communication documented with written correspondence. Putting the fear of lawsuit into the owner is the best way to get slimeball other man fired and the best way to get owner to protect your personal info. 

Owner wants to make MONEY, not protect SLIMEBALL EMPLOYEES who can't keep their pants on.

Seems odd that other man would be trying to figure out where you live from Facebook photos on her page if he had easy access to your information at work. By the way, another consequence should be that she deletes that damn page that other man is looking at that gives him an open door into your lives. Blocking him is not good enough, I'm sure he could sign on using somebody else's facebook page.


----------



## carpenoctem

TornNBroken said:


> He's been to her work and supposedly was *"trying to figure out where we lived a few weeks ago"* when they were still fooling around. I asked why he would be doing that, and she said, he said "*just in case I ever needed to go there for any reason." *
> 
> *I still wanna go bust him to his boss and get his ass fired, but still have a lingering fear that he might be psycho*




What reasons?

It’s a pity this did not ring some serious alarm bells in your wife’s head – *that the guy could invade your personal space* – or perhaps even confront you / harm you at some point. That she continued.

But you know that.
Just saying.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> So I already asked her what she would think about me going to his boss. Her initial response was that "it was my fault and I'd feel really bad cause he'd probably get fired." I told her that was the point, that he needed consequences too. *She said his consequence was that she left him and he never gets to see or talk to her ever again." * Then, without me saying anything else, she said, "and I'm sure our address is in their (M.E.) system and he could find us...I'd rather we just forget about him." Also, she said "I already have been a little nervous walking to the parking garage at work since we broke things off, and if you went after him, I'd be even more paranoid."
> 
> So yeah....of course my not TAM trained mind said, SHE'S PROTECTING HIM!!!!
> 
> But when I try to take my rage outta the picture, it does me no good to do anything to him. This is about me, and her, and the little kid to come....not this douche bag.
> 
> But God, I'd love to out him at work, on FB where his friends and family can see it, and where ever else I could fvck up his life a little bit.


She should have never been with him to begin with. It's like he broke into your home and stole something that belonged to you, and your wife's response is that he doesn't get to have the thing he stole anymore. Wow. I think that's kind of messed up.


----------



## Wiserforit

TornNBroken said:


> Her initial response was that "it was my fault and I'd feel really bad cause he'd probably get fired." I told her that was the point, that he needed consequences too. She said his consequence was that she left him and he never gets to see or talk to her ever again."


Wrong answer. Protecting him. And this "consequence" of not being able to continue screwing your wife anymore isn't actually a consequence now, is it?




> Then, without me saying anything else, she said, "and I'm sure our address is in their (M.E.) system and he could find us...I'd rather we just forget about him." Also, she said "I already have been a little nervous walking to the parking garage at work since we broke things off, and if you went after him, I'd be even more paranoid."


This is emotional blackmail, pretending that she is in danger if you turn this guy in,

The fact is she knows this guy and if he really is a crazy felon she would state that instead of these insinuations. 

I am increasingly of the mind that you should report him for reasons that she is telling us - please make my affairs easier by minimizing the consequences. 

Uh, no - you are no longer in control now and it is something you better think about in the future. People are not going to make it their job to cover up for you, and if you don't want to be afraid of your affair partners then don't have affairs.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Was there a reason given for him coming to her work? Do you sense she was creeped out about that, or about his interest in your address --as in *she* is worried he's becoming stalker-like?

My first instinct would be to do an online background check. But, I confess I can be a bit obsessive.

I don't recall if you know for sure he is not married anymore. A background check could clarify, if its an open question.


----------



## carpenoctem

Torn:

you have enough negative connotations already. But I need to say this:

Maybe she is protecting him (OM). *Or maybe she is protecting herself (she could be afraid that if you anger the OM, he could blurt out more to you in anger (vis a vis him / others).
*
I wager that is the case.

*Rationale: a psycho type bad boy working as a masseur and his basic character not conflicting with his profession is a little incongruous.*

Also to consider: though she says it was only sexual, maybe she made promises to him that went farther than that, and she cannot now keep them, and he feels betrayed / discarded. And only she knows how betrayed he could logically feel, and its aftermath.

Maybe.


----------



## WyshIknew

TornNBroken said:


> He's been to her work and supposedly was "trying to figure out where we lived a few weeks ago" when they were still fooling around. I asked why he would be doing that, and she said, he said "just in case I ever needed to go there for any reason." Guess he was looking at a picture of her on FB that was in our front yard and he saw a street sign....I dunno.





TornNBroken said:


> She said his consequence was that she left him and he never gets to see or talk to her ever again." Then, without me saying anything else, she said, "and I'm sure our address is in their (M.E.) system and he could find us...I'd rather we just forget about him." Also, she said "I already have been a little nervous walking to the parking garage at work since we broke things off, and if you went after him, I'd be even more paranoid."



Hmmm, he sounds a bit of a saddo to me. This kind of stuff does make me wonder about my original point.

Is he some kind of sad knobhead who has fallen in love with your wife, (you said I think that she was conventionally pretty?) and has threatened to tell you so she would either continue the affair or so he could break you two up?

Just this whole stuff about haning around her work, trying to figure out where you live etc is ringing alarm bells.

Do you see what I mean?

I'm not trying to be contentious or bang on and on but it does seem a little suspicious to me that she has carried on (as you called it I think) a deception fest for years but suddenly creepy 'where do you live' guy is on the scene and she confesses.

Hope you take the post in the spirit intended as I feel it would be remiss of me not to point this out.

I suppose largely whether she confessed through guilt or coercion makes little difference to D or R but I would prefer to think confessing through guilt shows a little more remorse.


----------



## TornNBroken

He met for for lunch once at work. Sorry if I made it sound like he was stalking her or something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

TornNBroken said:


> I dunno, I'm just rambling, but I'm sure there's a point where you can be too harsh, especially if you are gonna reconcile. In fact, that's one of my fears about R, that I'll be bitter and just think I can treat her however I want, cause WTF, at least I'm not cheating on her. Anyone else struggle with this during a R?



You won't do that if you are already thinking about it. It only shows what a good man you are.



> Well, I'll tell him about these 4 guys, but I just cant confess to a 5th."??? That doesn't make sense.


Lots of stuff people do during affairs don't make sense. Sometimes you just cannot make sense of a WS rationalization. Yes, she might well think that 4 might be the magic number you will forgive her for and anymore than that will be a divorce. Or she might well be telling you the truth. You just can't tell.


----------



## warlock07

> So I already asked her what she would think about me going to his boss. Her initial response was that "it was my fault and I'd feel really bad cause he'd probably get fired." I told her that was the point, that he needed consequences too. *She said his consequence was that she left him and he never gets to see or talk to her ever again.*" - *WOW, What the hell!!*
> 
> Then, without me saying anything else, she said, "and I'm sure our address is in their (M.E.) system and he could find us...I'd rather we just forget about him." Also, she said "I already have been a little nervous walking to the parking garage at work since we broke things off, and if you went after him, I'd be even more paranoid."


She somehow does not want you to talk to him. Like everyone is telling you, there is some other reason that she ended it with him. Tell her that you will talk to(confront) him and report to his workplace unless she tell you why she actually ended it. I feel there is more to her story. The reason she ended it might be very important. And by the tone of her words, there is definitely still more left. 

And he is a massage therapist ? That is as cliche and distasteful as it comes. Leave about the infidelity. You might have to consider that she might have issues that make her unfit as a long term relationship material.


----------



## Shaggy

Seriously, his consequence is he can't have her again?

That's not a consequence, not at all.

It's also a odd way to look at it if there is no emotional bond there.

You really need to go after him.


----------



## TornNBroken

Shaggy said:


> You really need to go after him.


Like confront him? Or just report him at work?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WyshIknew

Hmmm, I think confronting himface to face is probably a no no but rely on some of the more experienced guys for advice on this.

Juicer confronted and ended up in court with a hefty fine.


----------



## Wiserforit

First thing is to call his place of employment, but senior management level, and inquire about their policy regarding employees having sex with married customers.


----------



## TornNBroken

Wiserforit said:


> First thing is to call his place of employment, but senior management level, and inquire about their policy regarding employees having sex with married customers.


Hmmmm, I wonder what their policy is on that subject...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ironman

TornNBroken said:


> He met for for lunch once at work. Sorry if I made it sound like he was stalking her or something.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Torn, you say she confessed to having recent sex with this guy and now she is "protecting him" in a sort of way as others are pointing out. Remember the old saying men use love to get sex and women use sex to get love? She most likely has an emotional attachment to this guy.

Women typically (not always) only have sex with people they've emotionally bonded with. It's just how they're wired. I'm not buying the story she's fed you about it being just about the sex. It doesn't make sense. Nor does it jive with her "protection" of him. (admittedly, she could be seeking to avoid more shame)

I think what we have here is another form of trickle truth from her. 

Food for thought.

PS: I believe that the whole reason she confessed to you was not so much out of guilt, but because she is pregnant. You know, hormones raging and all. These are just my opinions, take them with a grain of salt. My only point in writing this post is to hopefully spur you to further action regarding destroying "their bond" whether or not R is on the table.


----------



## PastOM

Torn:

I am disgusted by your story, and feel sick that you are dealing with this. It's one of the worst I've seen on TAM.

Being an xOM, I wanted to raise a key issue that may be relevant, and sometimes overlooked. I fully understand that you will probably be angry at my status, it's just to try to help you. It's fine to vent frustration toward me if it will help you.

I never pursued the WW after dday, but was able to identify that one of my prevailing emotions for weeks after that day was the fact that I had lost the competition. I am naturally a very competitive person. During my IC, my therapist pushed me to understand that threaded into all of my emotional stuff (none of which you need be aware of) was a keen sense that I had lost the competition to H.

I know you are steaming at this point, but stick with me. The latest posts smack of this trumped-up pr1ck pea-c0cking to you, the WW, himself, and probably friends, because he came in second place to you. He clearly lacks tools for handling such a sharp blow to his ego.

In order to handle this behavior, I suggest that you remove him from the competition all together. He clearly feels that he is still in the race. The only way to do this is to *figuratively* beat him until he runs away. 

Obtain an affidavit of the affair from WW through use of a cheap attorney. This can be easily done by getting WW to write a statement of facts pertaining to the affair, have the lawyer deal with notarizing etc., with the formalities including lawyers business particulars. 

The document should be scanned and emailed to the work place of OM along with a letter written by the same lawyer stating that your information should be removed from the databases, and that any threats or actual harm to you or WW caused by OM would bring liability to that business.

Hard and soft copies of the affidavit should then be circulated to all and sundry, posted on FB pages, sent to his family and friends, co-workers, and other "massage" businesses in your area (effectively his future reference).

In taking this course of action, you will send a strong statement to OM and WW that there is no competition in which he can participate.

Again, I am sick for you.


----------



## JCD

Please excuse me. I want to go into this a bit more. Yes, other people have already commented.



TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, he's the one that's particularly driving me nuts. 37 yrs old, I believe she said he's been divorced before and just broke up with a longtime GF, also sells cars on the side???? Found him on FB, and he looks like a fvcking goober from the one pic he has on there...
> 
> How emotionally insulting. Plus revealing this guy would attack your pride "how could so do this to ME with THAT!
> 
> He's been to her work and supposedly was "trying to figure out where we lived a few weeks ago" when they were still fooling around. I asked why he would be doing that, and she said, he said "just in case I ever needed to go there for any reason." Guess he was looking at a picture of her on FB that was in our front yard and he saw a street sign....I dunno.
> 
> This is a SERIOUS SERIOUS red flag! You are both minimizing what this means. Yeah, you don't THINK he's a stalker...and you also thought your wife was faithful. I am not saying your judgment is all off, but you know NOTHING about this guy. HE IS TRYING TO WORM HIS WAY INTO HER LIFE. Why? I don't know. Maybe he sees himself as Hubby 2. Maybe he wants to blackmail her. Maybe he is a thief. His interest is distressing and your wife and your minimizing it IS PUTTING YOUR LIFESTYLE AT RISK! I am seriously surprised you don't see this. I would start to check phone records and emails again and keep it up.
> 
> I still wanna go bust him to his boss and get his ass fired, but still have a lingering fear that he might be psycho (I don't know the guy obviously).
> 
> I know I am contradicting myself here, but you are incrediby blase about her having STDs from sleeping with a guy who probably selected his field so he could find strange housewives to screw, but you are incredibly worried about a low likelihood chance that this guy is a later day Robert DeNiro in Cape Fear.
> (


Now let's get to her.



TornNBroken said:


> So I already asked her what she would think about me going to his boss. Her initial response was that "it was my fault and I'd feel really bad cause he'd probably get fired." I told her that was the point, that he needed consequences too. She said his consequence was that she left him and he never gets to see or talk to her ever again." Then, without me saying anything else, she said, "and I'm sure our address is in their (M.E.) system and he could find us...I'd rather we just forget about him." Also, she said "I already have been a little nervous walking to the parking garage at work since we broke things off, and if you went after him, I'd be even more paranoid."
> 
> I would seriously ask her "Where do your loyalties lie? Why are you paranoid? Why did you break up with him? He obviously said something that caused you to worry. Was he threatening to expose you so you could 'be together'? Because everything you are saying makes it sound like you aer worried about him coming back into your life or that you are protecting him. Which is it?"
> 
> You already got advice on how to hit the corporate office to protect your information. I would keep that photo of goober and study it. Make sure he can't blindside you.
> 
> As far as her fears go, well, thats' what happens when you decide to rub the belly of strange dogs. This sounds a little dismissive, but get her some pepper spray and insist that she come clean.
> 
> So yeah....of course my not TAM trained mind said, SHE'S PROTECTING HIM!!!!
> 
> But when I try to take my rage outta the picture, it does me no good to do anything to him. This is about me, and her, and the little kid to come....not this douche bag.
> 
> Plus not revealing means it isn't really real. It protects your pride. Sorry, but this could be a huge motive for you. But it does 'do something for you'. It really takes him out of the picture. Right now, if he's a clingy cheater, he's thinking he can come back later as long as it's secret. Making him aware of your knowledge and unhappiness means the ****roach won't be able to worm his way back into her later.
> 
> It also takes him out of the picture of those other housewives he is banging. So you are doing a social good.
> 
> But God, I'd love to out him at work, on FB where his friends and family can see it, and where ever else I could fvck up his life a little bit.


I do not like her reaction at all. I do not think she has a thousand guys under her belt...but there is something significant that she is not telling you. Something interrupted her 'happy play time'. After all, she did it 4 times with him. What waas the triggering event? 

She's meeting him at work? How many people know about this? Did SHE ever tell her your address? Was he ever alone with her purse? Honestly, your home privacy has been compromised...and she did it.

You need to let him know that his cover is gone and you can watch out for him.

Frankly, her answers on this front are angering. She has the attitude that she is so special that missing her is a given. Well...after screwing around 7 times with three different people...that isn't special at all. That is very common and low.

She needs to get her loyalties straightened out in her head.


----------



## Chaparral

Ask your attorney about getting a RO against him since she is afraid of him.

There have been many men here that have refused to out the OM. Because they did not want to mess up the R or D. As far as I have seen, all are still kicking themselves for not doing it and keeping the om away from their wives.

Your wife is protecting him, not you. She had feelings for him. If you don't take action against him, it just shows her that he really is more of a man than you and that she was right all along. It will also convince you of that too in time.

Yes she had/has feelings for him or she would not have kept going back and is now protecting him.

Almost all the wayward wives here have affaired down and you can forget trying to figure out why until you read mmslp.

As far as him being a poor provider, there is/was always alimony and child support.

If you don't get tough, reconcilliation or divorce is going to be a disaster.


Good luck and prayers for your family
Chap


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> Hmmmm, I wonder what their policy is on that subject...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not sure if you were making a joke (if so, good for you!), or if there is a chance the whole business is seedy. There are respectable places to get a massage and there are others. Do you have a feel for which this one is?


----------



## movin on

Gotta agree with chap on this . Looks like she wants to protect om.

Exposure does several things 
1. Letting his wife know is the right thing to do
2. His wife will be an extra pair of eyes on the affair
3. He will be to busy saving his own marriage to pursue your wife
4. Sends him a message that you will NOT put up with him screwing your wife
5. Shows your wife you are taking control of the situation and are not going to put up with her screwing around anymore.


I see your point not exposing to family. His wife definitely needs to be told
I would expose at his work as well but I would be doing that just to send him one last message
You know one last F you.But that's just the way I am
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD

movin on said:


> Gotta agree with chap on this . Looks like she wants to protect om.
> 
> Exposure does several things
> 1. Letting his wife know is the right thing to do
> 2. His wife will be an extra pair of eyes on the affair
> 3. He will be to busy saving his own marriage to pursue your wife
> 4. Sends him a message that you will NOT put up with him screwing your wife
> 5. Shows your wife you are taking control of the situation and are not going to put up with her screwing around anymore.
> 
> 
> I see your point not exposing to family. His wife definitely needs to be told
> I would expose at his work as well but I would be doing that just to send him one last message
> You know one last F you.But that's just the way I am
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 He is 37 years old, works as a masseuse and he isn't married. That tells you all you need to know about him.


----------



## SomedayDig

WyshIknew said:


> Don't want to jack TNB's thread as I hope he comes back and the wolf pack wind their necks in a bit.
> 
> 
> Seen you mention this before Dig. I think (I could be wrong, yes I know shocking) that you miss one thing out.
> 
> By your own account you were away from home many times while you were doing your pilot thing and if I recall correctly had a dream of setting up some sort of business with a friend so you could be home more often. I don't recall what the business was.
> 
> You can be as Alpha as you like, you can be Beta, Epsilon, Gamma or Omega.
> 
> It don't mean beans if you are not home. How is amazing alphaness going to affect anything if you aren't there?
> 
> A thoroughly beta personality would have more chance than you of avoiding an affair as he was home more often to c0ckblock.
> 
> Not a 'dig' at Dig but just wanted to point out something you may have overlooked.


I fully understand your point, man. It is quite valid that I was out of town a LOT during my career. The small difference, to me at least (even though being away certainly played into it) was that for the first year it was at our house in the basement bedroom. Then, my son was getting older and she feared that he might see the xOM. It was at that time (the last 3.5 - 4 years of the affair) that she would go to his house or the hotel. 

Again, I see that you make a totally valid point about me not being around and that is made more the important because when I left the flying to start a business, I was home a whopping 5 months before I caught her. So, 4.5 year affair while I was flying and it only took me 5 months of being home and since I was always around it didn't take long for me to catch it.

Honestly, my only point in my wordy response (no soda yet this morning) is that for most of the affair, I had to be home for her to be able to get away to see him. Yes, my absence though still helped push me out of her mind, IMO.



carpenoctem said:


> You really believe that, Dig? How do you permute that psychologically / emotionally / sexually?
> 
> I am asking because that seems counter to most / all other analogies in human life – say, occasional lying vs inveterate / compulsive lying. One-time / occasional shoplifting for adventure / thrill vs kleptomania. Opportunistic tax evasion vs long-term / frequent tax fraud.
> 
> How do you rationalize that belief to yourself? Curious to know.
> 
> (Not an affront, Sir. Just curious to know, while we are on the topic).
> 
> (I have used negative comparisons only, presuming that Infidelity is a negative thing overall. One could also draw positive / less negative comparisons: Such as: occasional sweet dish vs a sugar binge -- isn't one worse / graver than the other, per se?)
> 
> Pray tell.


I shot someone with a gun and they died within moments.

I jammed my knife in someone's gut and it took them 3 days to die.

Which one makes me better? Both are agonizing.

My point isn't as deep as your Yoda/Mr. Miyagi brain went on this one, carpenoctem. My point is that having sex outside of ones marriage be it a ONS or a LTA...the offender is _still_ engaging in sex outside of the marriage.

And THAT is what is the same.


----------



## PBear

I don't think you've mentioned yet... Have you started looking into your wife's phone records to check how long this last thing actually went back, or if there were any other strange calling patterns? Trusting your wife to give you the full picture is probably not a safe thing to do right now.

C


----------



## SomedayDig

By the way, Torn...my story on exposure: Since my wife's xOM is a friend of our (former) gang of friends, I exposed to them the morning after I caught her. I did so because I instinctively wanted the lights to come on and ensure that he was never invited to anything that we were invited to.

Family...I don't have family. I have a few cousins but don't keep in touch with them enough for it to make any kind of difference/consequence. She immediately told her sister, but we both agreed that her parents didn't need to know from the get go. She told them we were having problems (in March) and then in June while we were on family vacation with them, she told them that all those years she was blaming me for marriage faults, that it was all HER fault. Then in August, she confessed to her mother and father.

In August, after a month of sitting on Shaggy's suggestion of posting the xOM on Cheaterville, I finally did so. I admit that part of it was anger. No doubt. However, that was just the beginning of his professional end. See...he _was_ a lawyer for a 10 office, state wide firm. He was senior counsel in his office. As you know, a lawyer is only as good as their name (which is laughable in and of itself) and soon, his Cheaterville profile was #1 on Google. I then used their anonymous email function and sent his profile to his top 2 partners.

He is now a glorified salesman for a "green" power company.

See...violence is not needed.

Well...not all the time.


----------



## TornNBroken

PBear said:


> I don't think you've mentioned yet... Have you started looking into your wife's *phone records* to check how long this last thing actually went back, or if there were any other strange calling patterns? Trusting your wife to give you the full picture is probably not a safe thing to do right now.
> 
> C


As we speak...


----------



## LetDownNTX

TornNBroken said:


> On a separate note, I'm back at my house and she is with her friend. She texted me and said she forgot her snow boots, so I said it was fine if she came by to get them. I had told her the only way I would come home was if she promised to never drop by unannounced, cause I still think its too hard to see her. Anyways, she told me she was 5 minutes away, so I but her boots out on the porch. I was watching her from upstairs when she showed up and she started crying when she saw the boots on the stoop. I could've just opened the door and handed them to her, but I didn't want to get sucked into a conversation, or her trying to hug me, or something else that I'm not ready for. I dunno, I'm just rambling, but I'm sure there's a point where you can be too harsh, especially if you are gonna reconcile. In fact, that's one of my fears about R, that I'll be bitter and just think I can treat her however I want, cause WTF, at least I'm not cheating on her. Anyone else struggle with this during a R?


Torn, I was seperated from my WH for 17 mos the first time. It killed me to see him. Everytime he came he acted like life was normal and everytime he would leave my heart would break. I was afraid to be too cold to him because I wanted to R so bad. So I did whatever I felt I had to do to make things easy for him. In the process it made things awful for me. I was a mess. You dont have to be cruel to her, you can be indifferent. Being cruel to her would be calling her names, trashing her every chance you get.

She cried because it probably did hurt her that you sat them on the porch. Its ok that she's sad...that she cried. Look what she has done to you. Have you been crying? Are you hurting because of what she did to you, and your relationship? You feel bad, I get that because I would too, everytime I had to be harsh.

Give it some time, you will see in time what her true colors are, for now its not going to ruin your chances of R if you really love each other and want to be together, AND if she is really remorseful for what she has done.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> I don't have direct experience playing golf but I've seen Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson play.


Not sure where you are going with this. I assume you are telling me that since I have no direct experience that my thoughts on the matter are not relevant? Just curious. 

Sorry for the threadjack.


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> As we speak...


Depending on the smartphone, there may be a backup of its data on your computer or in "the cloud". If you want to pursue that, there are some on TAM that can help.

In my case, her carriers online account info provided access to detailed call/text logs that the paper bills would not have.


----------



## LetDownNTX

TornNBroken said:


> Like confront him? Or just report him at work?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Im using this as an example....

Would you want to report him to his job if he was giving your 18yo daughter a massage and crossed the line? I mean your daugther is 18 (and adult) but he shouldnt have crossed that professional line, no matter how tempted he was.

I wouldnt want him touching my daugther!


----------



## JCD

LetDownNTX said:


> Im using this as an example....
> 
> Would you want to report him to his job if he was giving your 18yo daughter a massage and crossed the line? I mean your daugther is 18 (and adult) but he shouldnt have crossed that professional line, no matter how tempted he was.
> 
> I wouldnt want him touching my daugther!


This is an excellent point. You don't coddle predators. You dig them out of their dens and you either put a bullet into them or drive them off of your property...and make sure they don't nest next door.


----------



## dubsey

Torn - 

No real advice on the infidelity side from me. I haven't been in your situation. I came to TAM for other reasons, but I've read through a lot of the infidelity threads.

Here is my advice. Keep reading and truly listen to what these people are telling you. They'll get you through this, either toward R or D, in the best way possible. Honestly, from all my reading here, I've kind of decided that it's never the BS choice to R or D, it's entirely situational and controlled more by the actions of the WS and how everything is handled.

Trust these people. Read the old threads they suggest to you when you can't sleep and can't stop thinking about things. They know what they know for a reason.

Good Luck, Sir.


----------



## Hicks

TornNBroken said:


> "I really don't know the why. It's like I'm addicted to feeling good about myself. A lot of things I do are motivated by feeling good about myself. Working out, making myself look pretty, shopping, trying to further my career, run marathons. And when other men give me attention, I don't even like them, I just like how they make me feel about myself.
> 
> It's like I turn into another person. Even though I have a voice inside my head telling me "no, you will regret this, don't do this", it's like I don't care... I make excuses and say "oh it's innocent" until I've gone too far. Then afterwards and I feel depressed and unworthy and not good enough and the cycle continues of doing things to make me feel better about myself."
> 
> (I don't feel totally comfortable sharing exact quotes from her, but I hope it might help me gain some insight to not be the only one hearing her exact side of the story)


TNB,

Affairs can be very different things, contrary to what is being posted here. 

The run of the mill affair goes like this... Man does a bad job of making his wife feel loved, special, happy. This opens the door for the wife to be seduced by an OM who starts saying things to make her feel loved, special happy. It evolves into sex, love etc. In an affair like this, when you kill the affair (exposure), the addiction can start waning and recovery can start. She is addicted to this one guy. Kill that affiar, and the addiction starts to wane.

Your situation is different and the advice ought to be different. Your wife's affair is not about the other man on the other side. She is encountering run of the mill lothario's and having sex with them. She was pretty clear with you why she is doing this (above). Exposing these men to their wives and familys may be a moral obligation but it will do nothing whatsover to protect your marriage from the things that are causeing your wife to become unfaithful. Your wife is addicted to the feeling of cheating. It's not the same as your marriage going stale opening the door for a uniquely bad circumstance.

She resorts to cheating on you in times of stress in her life. That is her go-to reaction. This is way more like a drug addiction than anything else. All humans are programmed to respond the way your wife is responding to male attention (i.e, women respond sexually to men who make them feel a certain way). What's different is your wife's inability to override her impulse. For example, I'm sure if someone gave me some heroin, it would make me feel great.. Our bodies / minds all respond to these drugs a certain way... So why don't we all become heroin addicts? We know that it's a really dumb thing to get involved in. But there are a few people who cannot overide and the drugs take over... Your wife is more in this category.

The BEST course of action for you, in my opinion is that your wife has to start counseling ASAP... She has to understand and unravel why she has this great overriding need to get male approval and give random men sex in order to get it. 

Counseling is not a guaranteed cure, and that's what you have to get about some of the advice you are being given. This may not be fixable, and if it's not you are in for a world of heartache and pain which could actually be WORSE for your child, rather than a child growing up never having known a time where Mom and Dad were together.

But, you should start conditions in place immediatly on what you need in your marriage even before you decide if you are sticking in with this tough road or not. Here is what I would be looking at:

-- A Post Nuptual Legal Agreement, spelling out:
---alimony, assets and child custody, 
-- Agreement that you can constantly monitor her passwords, do GPS etc... for life
-- Lifetime weekly counseling
-- No Alone time with any man for any reason ever
-- No friendships with men
-- Yearly lie detector tests

A professional addictoin therapist will tell you whether exposure to her own circle is a good idea. There is a good chance they will... That is standard in drug rehab at least.


----------



## bfree

Hicks said:


> TNB,
> 
> Affairs can be very different things, contrary to what is being posted here.
> 
> The run of the mill affair goes like this... Man does a bad job of making his wife feel loved, special, happy. This opens the door for the wife to be seduced by an OM who starts saying things to make her feel loved, special happy. It evolves into sex, love etc. In an affair like this, when you kill the affair (exposure), the addiction can start waning and recovery can start. She is addicted to this one guy. Kill that affiar, and the addiction starts to wane.
> 
> Your situation is different and the advice ought to be different. Your wife's affair is not about the other man on the other side. She is encountering run of the mill lothario's and having sex with them. She was pretty clear with you why she is doing this (above). Exposing these men to their wives and familys may be a moral obligation but it will do nothing whatsover to protect your marriage from the things that are causeing your wife to become unfaithful. Your wife is addicted to the feeling of cheating. It's not the same as your marriage going stale opening the door for a uniquely bad circumstance.
> 
> She resorts to cheating on you in times of stress in her life. That is her go-to reaction. This is way more like a drug addiction than anything else. All humans are programmed to respond the way your wife is responding to male attention (i.e, women respond sexually to men who make them feel a certain way). What's different is your wife's inability to override her impulse. For example, I'm sure if someone gave me some heroin, it would make me feel great.. Our bodies / minds all respond to these drugs a certain way... So why don't we all become heroin addicts? We know that it's a really dumb thing to get involved in. But there are a few people who cannot overide and the drugs take over... Your wife is more in this category.
> 
> The BEST course of action for you, in my opinion is that your wife has to start counseling ASAP... She has to understand and unravel why she has this great overriding need to get male approval and give random men sex in order to get it.
> 
> Counseling is not a guaranteed cure, and that's what you have to get about some of the advice you are being given. This may not be fixable, and if it's not you are in for a world of heartache and pain which could actually be WORSE for your child, rather than a child growing up never having known a time where Mom and Dad were together.
> 
> But, you should start conditions in place immediatly on what you need in your marriage even before you decide if you are sticking in with this tough road or not. Here is what I would be looking at:
> 
> -- A Post Nuptual Legal Agreement, spelling out:
> ---alimony, assets and child custody,
> -- Agreement that you can constantly monitor her passwords, do GPS etc... for life
> -- Lifetime weekly counseling
> -- No Alone time with any man for any reason ever
> -- No friendships with men
> -- Yearly lie detector tests
> 
> A professional addictoin therapist will tell you whether exposure to her own circle is a good idea. There is a good chance they will... That is standard in drug rehab at least.


Your post is excellent and hopefully Torn takes it to heart. Your suggestions are also excellent but this is exactly what I was saying in my last post.

Torn, you really need to think about whether or not you can be her moral policeman without becoming resentful. In most reconciliations spouses can rely on trust eventually returning. As Hicks says most affairs are with one individual. Once the affair is ended and the OM/OW is out of the picture healing and rebuilding can commence. In your case it may very well be that you are not battling one OM but the feeling or idea of another man. I'm not sure how you can ever truly rebuild trust in that case. I for one could never be in a relationship where I felt more like a parent or a jailer than as a spouse. Only you can decide what you are able to live with.


----------



## turnera

TornNBroken said:


> No. I just see exposure now as somewhat counterproductive to getting past this (if i decide to try and R).
> I see it just adding shame and another element of "fvcked up" to deal with. I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine it ever being comfortable around my family if they knew what she had done. I'm already a mom's baby boy, I doubt she'd have the same love for my spouse as she does now.
> 
> So if its truly over....


I usually don't recommend exposing to YOUR parents unless they hold sway over her. But HER parents, hell yeah. To stop the affair. IF the affair is over, IF you two stay together, I WILL recommend that you specify that the TWO of you go to her parents and tell them what she did, so that they can be a lifeline to the both of you in the future. It will help her with the humility she needs to become a FWW, and it will help you when you get angry at her (so they will understand and not blame you).


----------



## turnera

2asdf2 said:


> As a former Mental Health Professional I was leery of them myself and resisted them until my daughter insisted. Then -lo and behold!- I found them useful.
> 
> Only you can decide when it is a last resort. Remember that pragmatism is a useful stance to have.


 Same here. They have made a HUGE difference in my life, when I needed help.


----------



## Shaggy

You ONLY go after him via exposure. Never direct confrontation, you will always be wasting your time if you directly confront. Instead share the truth about what he did,

1. Exposé to his family -wife or go
2. Exposé in a letter to the Directior of HR. this is especially important because he was her boss! Way past ok, in any company I have ever been in.
3. Cheaterville.com

Your wife is protecting him. The ONLY reason for that is she doesn't want to have him hate her, and that's because she wants to keep the option open. Heck, she may still be seeing him.


----------



## bfree

turnera said:


> I usually don't recommend exposing to YOUR parents unless they hold sway over her. But HER parents, hell yeah. To stop the affair. IF the affair is over, IF you two stay together, I WILL recommend that you specify that the TWO of you go to her parents and tell them what she did, so that they can be a lifeline to the both of you in the future. It will help her with the humility she needs to become a FWW, and it will help you when you get angry at her (so they will understand and not blame you).


This also just occurred to me. If you expose to her parents maybe they will have some insight into why she behaves the way she does. Its possible they could get involved in her counseling giving her therapist background information that would be useful in treating her. Just a thought.


----------



## carpenoctem

SomedayDig said:


> I shot someone with a gun and they died within moments.
> I jammed my knife in someone's gut and it took them 3 days to die.
> Which one makes me better? Both are agonizing.
> My point is that having sex outside of ones marriage be it a ONS or a LTA...the offender is _still_ engaging in sex outside of the marriage.
> And THAT is what is the same.



*Dig:
*
In our context, the comparison would be: one-time shooting / one-time stabbing vs multiple / repeat stabbing / shooting.

(Not to compare infidelity with shooting / stabbing).




Have you left flying altogether now, Dig?

In all those trips jetting around the world, you didn’t stray from your marriage. You had *as much* reason (since you have identified distance / time apart as a major reason) to stray, and probably way more temptations and opportunities, than Regret. *But you didn’t.*

So many BHs fantasize about getting back at the OM, so that he also pays a heavy price for the devastation he partners in causing, but don’t. *You did.
*
:smthumbup:


----------



## TOMTEFAR

TornNBroken said:


> On a separate note, I'm back at my house and she is with her friend. She texted me and said she forgot her snow boots, so I said it was fine if she came by to get them. I had told her the only way I would come home was if she promised to never drop by unannounced, cause I still think its too hard to see her. Anyways, she told me she was 5 minutes away, so I but her boots out on the porch. I was watching her from upstairs when she showed up and she started crying when she saw the boots on the stoop. I could've just opened the door and handed them to her, but I didn't want to get sucked into a conversation, or her trying to hug me, or something else that I'm not ready for. I dunno, I'm just rambling, but I'm sure there's a point where you can be too harsh, especially if you are gonna reconcile. In fact, that's one of my fears about R, that I'll be bitter and just think I can treat her however I want, cause WTF, at least I'm not cheating on her. Anyone else struggle with this during a R?


I Think you handled this great! Your W hoped she would meet you and talk to you. You acting the way you did is realy good for you. It firmly leaves you driving the car. She gets no possibility of "manipulating" you. She is left totaly dependent on you. Great stuff. You need to be the driver for now and for some time if you try R. She needs to understand this and this is a very good way of asserting that. Also it also gives her consequences for her actions which is good. She needs to have them, even if you do not go for a R. I asume you want her to do better in the future even if you do not R?


----------



## bfree

Shaggy said:


> You ONLY go after him via exposure. Never direct confrontation, you will always be wasting your time if you directly confront. Instead share the truth about what he did,
> 
> 1. Exposé to his family -wife or go
> 2. Exposé in a letter to the Directior of HR. this is especially important because he was her boss! Way past ok, in any company I have ever been in.
> 3. Cheaterville.com
> 
> Your wife is protecting him. The ONLY reason for that is she doesn't want to have him hate her, and that's because she wants to keep the option open. Heck, she may still be seeing him.


This is a consideration as well. Maybe she is no longer having the affair because she is pregnant but in the back of her mind she wants to keep the possibility open for after she has the baby. It would certainly explain why she is protecting him as well. But until Torn gets an explanation as to how and why the affair ended there is no way to actually know. But this is yet another reason to go after him.

One other thing Torn. Not to sound like Machiavelli but it is extremely unusual for a woman to want to have sex when pregnant with anyone but the father. And yet your wife had sex with the OM after she knew she was pregnant. And you stated that she said there was ALMOST no chance that you weren't the father. These facts are seriously troublesome. Obviously the DNA test will reveal much but if I were in your situation I would need to be able to resolve these things before I could truly devote any time or energy to reconciling the marriage. In one of my other posts I said that I feel that your wife thinks the baby is not yours. This is why. I really hope I'm wrong but the mere suggestion of it by your wife's words and actions would make me need to understand what was/is going through her mind regardless of the child's paternity.


----------



## TOMTEFAR

TornNBroken said:


> Like confront him? Or just report him at work?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My brother actually called and met the OM in a public place. It was a very good meeting for my brother. He got almoste the complete story this way. His WS TT a lot but in the end the 2 stories matched up.

So from my side meeting the OM is quite good but I know others have a different opinion. 

Depending on how you approach this meeting/phone call the only thing you stand to loose is not getting any good info at all. So what is there to loose, besides looking week but if you approach the meeting correctly that will not happen.

But then again thats my thoughts and others dissagrees...


----------



## SomedayDig

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *Dig:*
> 
> In our context, the comparison would be: one-time shooting / one-time stabbing vs multiple / repeat stabbing / shooting.
> 
> (Not to compare infidelity with shooting / stabbing).
> 
> 
> I understand your reasoning, however don't forget that in not comparing infidelity to murder, my "purest" explanation is that adultery is adultery no matter the context of the tryst.
> 
> Have you left flying altogether now, Dig?
> 
> Yes. And we are moving 1200 miles away from this place in 3 months!!
> 
> In all those trips jetting around the world, you didn’t stray from your marriage. You had *as much* reason (since you have identified distance / time apart as a major reason) to stray, and probably way more temptations and opportunities, than Regret. *But you didn’t.*
> 
> Oh, I had plenty of opportunity, but don't forget I have lived with infidelity in various forms for over 40 years (sperm donor biological father/step-punkass father, 1st wife) and it was just something that was never on the table. Not saying I was never tempted, I just have boundaries. You can't stop a bird from flying over your head, but you can stop it from making a nest in your hair.
> 
> So many BHs fantasize about getting back at the OM, so that he also pays a heavy price for the devastation he partners in causing, but don’t. *You did.*
> 
> :smthumbup:


I did. And I will *NEVER* feel guilty or bad about my payback.


----------



## sandc

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, he's the one that's particularly driving me nuts. 37 yrs old, I believe she said he's been divorced before and just broke up with a longtime GF, also sells cars on the side???? Found him on FB, and he looks like a fvcking goober from the one pic he has on there...
> 
> He's been to her work and supposedly was "trying to figure out where we lived a few weeks ago" when they were still fooling around. I asked why he would be doing that, and she said, he said "just in case I ever needed to go there for any reason." Guess he was looking at a picture of her on FB that was in our front yard and he saw a street sign....I dunno.
> 
> I still wanna go bust him to his boss and get his ass fired, but still have a lingering fear that he might be psycho (I don't know the guy obviously). I guess when she sent him an email last Wed telling him it was over and to never contact her again, he never wrote back. Which I guess is what she asked, but it doesn't give me any info on his demeanor. It'd be nice to know if he was pissed or if he was just sad, but understood she didn't want a divorce.
> 
> Ugh, I just don't know what to do.
> 
> Don't know who I want to expose everything to, don't know if I should confront the guy, don't know if I should try and R if the baby is mine, don't know if I should try and go back to work to get my mind off of things, or if I should just stay home...


Remember God's charge to Joshua upon Moses' death. "Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified, do not be discouraged for the Lord your God with be with you where ever you may go."

Exposing Peter is not punishment for him, nor your wife. It is protection for other women. Other men's wives. How grateful would you be if someone had gotten Peter fired before he met your wife? 

He is a predator of women and must be dealt with. You have God's protection first and foremost. Pray about it before you do anything. Second, if he makes ANY kind of rumblings against you, you file a police report. You're 6'3" and 220 lbs. You're not pushover yourself. You're an anesthesiologist? Do you have any ether? Knock his sorry ass out until the cops get there. 

Okay, that's not helpful. My point is you don't need to fear this guy. Pull up some of that righteous anger you felt when you were admonishing us about treating your wife like a 2 bit where. Exposing Peter to his workplace will make you feel like you are regaining control of your life.

I will pray for you.


----------



## sandc

And let me further clarify, I mean expose to his employers. Do not confront OM directly.

I also agree with JCD, something doesn't "feel" right about your wife's reasons for not wanting to expose OM. She's trying to make you fear him and stay far away from him. Could she have been wanting to quit the A but he was threatening to expose to you if she did not continue? Or is there information he has the she doesn't want you to find out?

I'm sorry, not trying to stoke the paranoia again. I've never been cheated on so this is just normal guy paranoia here.

And OM's punishment is never getting to see her royal fabulousness again? Really? Gag. She is starting to sound entitled.


----------



## Soifon

A couple of things that have stood out to me...

Firstly she said 4 times total, 3x with a condom and once without and that he pulled out. Yet in your first list of questions you asked her if he ever came inside her. Well pulling out and cumming in her both indicate no condom and you don't really do both at the same time. (If I read all of the facts correctly) So I think she _may_ still be hiding something from you.

Second, she did say that they had sex at his work right? Well if I were you I would expose to the owner and threaten involving authorities. Sex at a massage parlor where she is a paying customer doesn't look good from a business standpoint when authorities are involved.

Third, I don't know how much stock you should put into her leading you to believe that he is someone you need to be afraid of. Her comment saying that his consequence was not getting her any more says a lot to me about her. She is full of herself and is attention crazy. She is pulling a damsel in distress card on you pretending that she is in fear and she needs you to protect her. It's an attention grab. She is using that to lower your defense to her because a lot of guys have a weakness to riding in on a white horse to save a girl. Don't fall for it.


----------



## aug

Soifon said:


> Second, she did say that they had sex at his work right? Well if I were you I would expose to the owner and threaten involving authorities. *Sex at a massage parlor where she is a paying customer doesn't look good from a business standpoint when authorities are involved.*


Depends what type of massage parlor, there are those that specializes in happy endings. (Not that I know anything first hand about it. I just read a lot.)


----------



## Soifon

aug said:


> Depends what type of massage parlor, there are those that specializes in happy endings. (Not that I know anything first hand about it. I just read a lot.)


LOL! Well they may look good to some but not the police. There was one about an hour away from where I live that was raided a year ago for giving out those "happy endings".

I'm not saying that's what this is I'm just saying that it would be a good approach to his place of employment with the goal of getting him fired.


----------



## TornNBroken

No, this is Massage Envy, a nationwide company, not a hole in the wall asian parlor. On a side note, can I sue Massage Envy? Would be good to know if I ended up having to pay alimony or child support, or whatever....


----------



## turnera

Hell yeah!

I was on a jury for some poor kid who happened to be working at a car dealership and the shyster doctor who ran into him sued him AND the dealership. Which had nothing to do with him driving on a freeway.


----------



## JCD

TornNBroken said:


> No, this is Massage Envy, a nationwide company, not a hole in the wall asian parlor. On a side note, can I sue Massage Envy? Would be good to know if I ended up having to pay alimony or child support, or whatever....


These laws don't exist to enrich your pocket. These rules exist so they can toss out the reckless Peters in the business world without facing any legal indemnity from THEM.

You would have to prove that the company itself condoned these actions. So far, all you have is the word of your wife.

You can (and should) get him fired. That is more than enough. And if he's going to shoot you for a $20 an hour job, he's a bit unhinged to face 15-20 with Bubba.


----------



## sandc

*Re: Re: Just found out...need advice *



TornNBroken said:


> No, this is Massage Envy, a nationwide company, not a hole in the wall asian parlor. On a side note, can I sue Massage Envy? Would be good to know if I ended up having to pay alimony or child support, or whatever....


Another good reason to talk to a lawyer.


----------



## TornNBroken

JCD said:


> These laws don't exist to enrich your pocket. These rules exist so they can toss out the reckless Peters in the business world without facing any legal indemnity from THEM.
> 
> You would have to prove that the company itself condoned these actions. So far, all you have is the word of your wife.
> 
> You can (and should) get him fired. That is more than enough. And if he's going to shoot you for a $20 an hour job, he's a bit unhinged to face 15-20 with Bubba.


Yeah, I didn't think so...was just curious.


----------



## aug

TornNBroken said:


> No, this is Massage Envy, a nationwide company, not a hole in the wall asian parlor. On a side note, can I sue Massage Envy? Would be good to know if I ended up having to pay alimony or child support, or whatever....


What would your case against Massage Envy be? Tort of criminal conversation?

I would think your wife (ex-wife?) would have a stronger case. If she claims coercion or something like that. But she went back several times. But then maybe not, given her history with men.


----------



## InlandTXMM

Torn I think going after this guy is really important. Other husbands have to know what he's capable of, and his employer NEEDS to know keeping him around is exposing them to every kind of litigation.


----------



## TornNBroken

InlandTXMM said:


> Torn I think going after this guy is really important. Other husbands have to know what he's capable of, and his employer NEEDS to know keeping him around is exposing them to every kind of litigation.


What litigation are they being exposed to? Unless, like someone else mentioned, they were aware of/condoning his behavior?


----------



## PBear

Did the cell phone logs turn up anything?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dubsey

if the events happened at work, they could be liable for a few different things, but the biggest hit would be to their reputation if/when the incident makes the papers.

The local paper would love to run with something like this if the company didn't react immediately upon knowing something happened.


----------



## TornNBroken

PBear said:


> Did the cell phone logs turn up anything?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I dunno...

I mainly was looking for outta state phone numbers (for all the "old guys") and any phone conversation lasting over 5 minutes. I did reverse phone number look ups and found a couple of random guys names that I didn't recognize, but they were all just one time calls. So I"ll probably ask who they are, but it wasn't too concerning.

Only thing that WAS weird, on the night she supposedly slept with Peter and then came home and confessed, there were two phone calls FROM and two phone calls TO a Jacksonville, FL number between 5:00 and 6:30. They were all short calls, under 3 minutes each, but it was registered to a Richard W******** who I've never heard of and I couldn't find anything on FB. Just seems very odd to send/receive 4 calls within 2 hours from the same outta state number.


----------



## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> What litigation are they being exposed to? Unless, like someone else mentioned, they were aware of/condoning his behavior?


If this guy is a massage therapist, he's got his hands on clients all day. Knowing that he crosses the line with married women means he is a HUGE liability for an indecency and/or sexual assault claim. True or not.


----------



## LostAndContent

TornNBroken said:


> I dunno...
> 
> I mainly was looking for outta state phone numbers (for all the "old guys") and any phone conversation lasting over 5 minutes. I did reverse phone number look ups and found a couple of random guys names that I didn't recognize, but they were all just one time calls. So I"ll probably ask who they are, but it wasn't too concerning.
> 
> Only thing that WAS weird, on the night she supposedly slept with Peter and then came home and confessed, there were two phone calls FROM and two phone calls TO a Jacksonville, FL number between 5:00 and 6:30. They were all short calls, under 3 minutes each, but it was registered to a Richard W******** who I've never heard of and I couldn't find anything on FB. Just seems very odd to send/receive 4 calls within 2 hours from the same outta state number.


Probably someone telling your wife that if she didn't confess to you, they would tell you everything. This is a shot in the dark here, but I'm very suspicious of your wife feeling so guilty she just had to tell you that night.


----------



## The-Deceived

I'm sure it's been said - but that baby might not be yours.

I'm sorry you're here. Take care of yourself and listen to the folks here - sadly, they are experts on this sh*t. This is likely the hardest thing you'll ever go through.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> Only thing that WAS weird, on the night she supposedly slept with Peter and then came home and confessed, there were two phone calls FROM and two phone calls TO a Jacksonville, FL number between 5:00 and 6:30. They were all short calls, under 3 minutes each, but it was registered to a Richard W******** who I've never heard of and I couldn't find anything on FB. Just seems very odd to send/receive 4 calls within 2 hours from the same outta state number.


The great indicator of where she is with all of this is to simply ask, "So...who is Richard W**** in J-Ville and what did you call and talk about?"

I promise you, with your Spider Senses on high alert right now, you'll know if she's telling the truth.


----------



## PBear

You could ask her for MEDude's phone number and see how long it goes back in her phone records. If it doesn't show up at all, then you're left wondering how she communicated with him. If it does show up, it might give you an idea if she was TT'ing you on the duration of the relationship. And if it shows up a lot, it may give you an idea of how serious the relationship is. 

I'd also look for any other numbers that show up a lot. If they're family or friends, no problem. If they're not, track them down. And yes, I'd do more tracking down on D1ck... It's obviously NOT a wrong number. And it was on a very significant night.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> I dunno...
> 
> I mainly was looking for outta state phone numbers (for all the "old guys") and any phone conversation lasting over 5 minutes. I did reverse phone number look ups and found a couple of random guys names that I didn't recognize, but they were all just one time calls. So I"ll probably ask who they are, but it wasn't too concerning.
> 
> Only thing that WAS weird, on the night she supposedly slept with Peter and then came home and confessed, there were two phone calls FROM and two phone calls TO a Jacksonville, FL number between 5:00 and 6:30. They were all short calls, under 3 minutes each, but it was registered to a Richard W******** who I've never heard of and I couldn't find anything on FB. Just seems very odd to send/receive 4 calls within 2 hours from the same outta state number.


You are going to think I'm an alarmist again, but there is more to the story you don't know. You don't have it all yet.


----------



## InlandTXMM

Torn you have to get it through your head that you no longer have to sneak around or hold back on your questions. She did the lying and obfuscating. You now get to hold up a billion candle-watt flood lamp on every single thing she's done. You get to be suspicious. You get to be cynical. You have no obligation to trust anything she says until she's PROVEN - TO YOU - that she's trustworthy again. In fact, that's the only way forward.

You have EVERY right to check phone logs, insist on passwords, etc. A year later, my wife still isn't permitted to erase call logs or text messages without my okay.

You CERTAINLY have every right to ask who this Richard guy is. And after that, I'd simply call Richard, right in front of her, without telling her first, and find out what he has to say.


----------



## TornNBroken

InlandTXMM said:


> You are going to think I'm an alarmist again, but there is more to the story you don't know. You don't have it all yet.


Sheesh everyone is so sensitive towards me now 

As long as you aren't making absurd, filthy, disgusting claims that aren't backed up by any of the evidence, you're fine.


----------



## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> Sheesh everyone is so sensitive towards me now
> 
> As long as you aren't making absurd, filthy, disgusting claims that aren't backed up by any of the evidence, you're fine.


I might be abrasive but never I'm never disgusting. Or, at least not very often.


----------



## InlandTXMM

BTW if you had the whole story, you'd know who this Richard guy is already, and why they called each other.


----------



## TornNBroken

PBear said:


> You could ask her for MEDude's phone number and see how long it goes back in her phone records. If it doesn't show up at all, then you're left wondering how she communicated with him. If it does show up, it might give you an idea if she was TT'ing you on the duration of the relationship. And if it shows up a lot, it may give you an idea of how serious the relationship is.
> 
> I'd also look for any other numbers that show up a lot. If they're family or friends, no problem. If they're not, track them down. And yes, I'd do more tracking down on D1ck... It's obviously NOT a wrong number. And it was on a very significant night.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She said they only talked on the phone 2 or 3 times, which I believe cause I looked back an entire year, and every number that came up more than a few times or that I didn't recognize, I looked up, and I never found his name. She said they texted daily though. However, you have to get a notarized form in to Sprint to get those records, and it will take a couple weeks. I might do that eventually, but you don't even get content, just dates and times.


----------



## PBear

Btw, don't tell her WHY you want any phone numbers or information about anyone. She doesn't need any information before she gives you what you ask for. If she balks at ANY request, your first thought should be "who is she protecting, and what is she hiding"

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> I dunno...
> 
> I mainly was looking for outta state phone numbers (for all the "old guys") and any phone conversation lasting over 5 minutes. I did reverse phone number look ups and found a couple of random guys names that I didn't recognize, but they were all just one time calls. So I"ll probably ask who they are, but it wasn't too concerning.
> 
> Only thing that WAS weird, on the night she supposedly slept with Peter and then came home and confessed, there were two phone calls FROM and two phone calls TO a Jacksonville, FL number between 5:00 and 6:30. They were all short calls, under 3 minutes each, but it was registered to a Richard W******** who I've never heard of and I couldn't find anything on FB. Just seems very odd to send/receive 4 calls within 2 hours from the same outta state number.


If you really want to know, there are much better places to search than FB.

Consider using spokeo.com, or the like, perhaps signing up for awhile. (I suppose there are a lot of people-search sites that can give you lots of information, but that one seems more apt to have crawled through and gleaned information from FB sort of things, as well as dating sites; and it seems on the up and up: Spokeo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

Not sure if that would be a good thing to pursue or not, but suspect its best to error on too much information rather than less. Certainly, had I thought of it back in the day I would have used spokeo or the like, even gone as far as searching for sites where my wife might have unexpectedly surfaced.


----------



## oregonmom

Sorry, I can't remember if your WW works or not...

When I was searching the phone records, I found on the way to work, lunch, and coming home from work was where most of the communication was, or when I was out of the house. Those are good times to key in on.

If she doesn't work, after you leave for work and right before you come home.

It is a lot of numbers to look at. We have AT&T, and they have a feature where you can nickname a number. I nicknamed all the numbers I knew (took his contacts in his phone), and it was much easier to sort through instead of trying to keep all those numbers straight in my head.


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> Sheesh everyone is so sensitive towards me now


I'm glad. I was really afraid this place might be your only outlet at the moment, and it had lost its potential to help you.

Speaking of which, do you have anyone in real life (non-cyberspace) that might be able to help you cope with this in anyway. I lose track, with all the threads I've been reading, but if I recall correctly you're not planning to lean on your family through any of this, and might have mentioned some reluctance to involve anyone from your church? Plus, I'm thinking with your profession, I doubt you've had much time to accumulate a bunch of best buds in your locale over the last few years.

I don't know if you see value in trying to find someone you could reach out to, or if those who have been in similar shoes would agree it would be of value. Most troubles I've had in my life I've mostly started out dealing with completely alone, and it took me a very long time to have the courage (social shyness was an issue, as was shame) to make a connection to much needed support.

I just worry there's going to be a lot to deal with in the next week or two, and maybe now is a good time to give building your support network a few moments of deliberate thought.

In any case, I suspect you realize there are many fine folks here that are trying hard to support you, and are rooting for you to find the best way forward. And, for that, I'm glad.


----------



## turnera

TornNBroken said:


> Only thing that WAS weird, on the night she supposedly slept with Peter and then came home and confessed, there were two phone calls FROM and two phone calls TO a Jacksonville, FL number between 5:00 and 6:30. They were all short calls, under 3 minutes each, but it was registered to a Richard W******** who I've never heard of and I couldn't find anything on FB. Just seems very odd to send/receive 4 calls within 2 hours from the same outta state number.


Maybe it's a cell phone number with a Jacksonville area code. Could be anywhere. My friend has a cell phone with an Alabama area code cos that's where he lived when he got the phone service.


----------



## TornNBroken

turnera said:


> Maybe it's a cell phone number with a Jacksonville area code. Could be anywhere. My friend has a cell phone with an Alabama area code cos that's where he lived when he got the phone service.


Well, according to Spokeo, Richard is a 62y dude who lives in Jacksonville, and has for the last 15 years. My wife has never been to Jacksonville...its NO WHERE near where we lived in FL. How accurate are these sites? When I look myself up, it gives an old address and says I'm single...


----------



## PieceOfSky

turnera said:


> Maybe it's a cell phone number with a Jacksonville area code. Could be anywhere. My friend has a cell phone with an Alabama area code cos that's where he lived when he got the phone service.


Come to think of it, it does not even take a cell phone to have a number based somewhere else. My kid installed Kik and TextFree on her iPodTouch, and setup her own accounts. Somehow in all that, she has a phone number through which I can text her. The number has a TX area code, which is 18 hours from here.

With it, she can also receive and initiate voice calls -- even though it's just an iPod not iPhone.


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> Well, according to Spokeo, Richard is a 62y dude who lives in Jacksonville, and has for the last 15 years. My wife has never been to Jacksonville...its NO WHERE near where we lived in FL. How accurate are these sites? When I look myself up, it gives an old address and says I'm single...


It's pretty accurate for me -- instantly brought up a photo of my house, and had addresses I've forgotten (I'm 47). But, my real-life name is pretty unique (maybe one other match in the US -- and he is in jail).

When I caught our maid stealing, I used Background Check | People Search | BeenVerified.com to search here past. It proved pretty accurate, including "past associates/relatives". 

It is a business, though, that seems to have a bunch operators that look like scam artists, and heavy on the ads, etc.


EDIT: (Adding...)

But, beenverified.com and maybe spokeo.com seem to stand out as potential legitimate sites and well-done technically. I have also used intellius.com before, and gotten info.


----------



## TornNBroken

Okay, apparently the 62y from Jacksonville is also a 37y masseuse in Denver. I just asked her for Peter's number and its the same one. So much for these websites...


----------



## dubsey

I'd take that as a good thing in the current situation. That'd be expected and kinda confirms her story if it doesn't show up anymore after that.


----------



## PBear

You really need to dig into the text history too... But you know that.

My concern... If you decide to reconcile without knowing the magnitude of her betrayal, when it comes out in the future it will kick things off all over for you again. I don't know what her level of betrayal was, but you need to dig until you're satisfied you know the scope of it. Even if you don't know the gritty details.

C


----------



## TornNBroken

My email I sent to her this morning:

"So I'm pretty sure I AM gonna report Peter to Massage Envy. He needs consequences, and no, not getting you anymore is not a consequence. He had no right to you in the first place. He needs to know that this thing is out in the open and is DONE. You've already told him it was done before, how is this time any different? He needs to know I know, and needs to know that he's been exposed. Not to mention the future women he might do inappropriate things with/to at work. Maybe he's done this before. Maybe if someone else would have exposed him previously, this wouldn't have happened with you. I feel obligated to society and to Massage Envy. You think any woman deserves to go get a massage from this ****ing creep? I don't.

And you already said he's harmless. Unless he's borderline psychotic already, losing a crappy paying part time job shouldn't make him snap. Does he have a criminal history? Is he an aggressive person? Were you scared to tell him it was over? 

Needs to be done."

She just responded:

"That's fine. When I emailed him I told him I told you, so he knows you know. He's not crazy and I don't think he'd do anything crazy but I don't know. Do whatever you need/want. I just want my husband back."


----------



## Almostrecovered

Well, it's not best to inform your wife that you're exposing, you just do it

Nevertheless, keep up the strong front and expose

Best of luck on the paternity test


----------



## Chaparral

Just for the newbies resding this, you NEVER tell the wayward spouse you are going to expose. That gives them the oppurtunity to let the ap know and do preventive damage control and make you look like some crazy fool.


----------



## TornNBroken

Well, I guess i didn't read the rule book...

Now do I necessarily need to contact his employer by certified mail or something? Or can I just go in and talk with the manager and let him know what's happened?


----------



## aug

TornNBroken said:


> Well, according to Spokeo, Richard is a 62y dude who lives in Jacksonville, and has for the last 15 years. My wife has never been to Jacksonville...its NO WHERE near where we lived in FL. How accurate are these sites? When I look myself up, it gives an old address and says I'm single...


Well, here's a scenario for consideration...

Peter or the masseuse used to live in FL and got his phone there. The phone number was given up by the 62y dude, and picked up by Peter or the masseuse. Your wife met him in FL during one of her visits (or she knew him from there or introduced by the masseuse). They kept in touch. He moved to be near her.

This could explain why she called the masseuse twice before exposure to you. To keep their story straight. Or, the masseuse got pissed and threatened to expose.


----------



## aug

TornNBroken said:


> Well, I guess i didn't read the rule book...
> 
> Now do I necessarily need to contact his employer by certified mail or something? Or can I just go in and talk with the manager and let him know what's happened?


In writing is best, have a copy for your record.


----------



## TornNBroken

aug said:


> In writing is best, have a copy for your record.


Would I need my wife to sign it, or can I just write up something?


----------



## jnj express

you contact Massage Envy---corporate headquarters---they are the ones who would suffer financially from a scumbag like this guy---the local mgr., has no authority to do anything----go on line and google Massage Envy Corp Hdqtrs---you can call them 1st if you want


----------



## aug

TornNBroken said:


> Would I need my wife to sign it, or can I just write up something?


Stronger letter if your wife signed also. And you then also have her written statement that she cheated and cant withdraw her confession.


----------



## TornNBroken

aug said:


> Stronger letter if your wife signed also. And you then also have her written statement that she cheated and cant withdraw her confession.


I know you all are trying to prep me for a bad divorce (cause a D is a possibility), but I don't really understand the strong need to document everything. I was reading up on Colorado divorce law, and CO is a no fault state, which, in my understanding it means that it doesn't matter why you are getting a divorce. They treat every one the same in regards to splitting of assets, alimony, etc. I HAVE every bit of proof that she cheated multiple times, so don't freak out...but what am I ever gonna use it for?


----------



## SomedayDig

jnj express said:


> you contact Massage Envy---corporate headquarters---they are the ones who would suffer financially from a scumbag like this guy---the local mgr., has no authority to do anything----go on line and google Massage Envy Corp Hdqtrs---you can call them 1st if you want


Massage Envy is a franchise company. The main headquarters should be included as a CC, however Torn should look up whoever is the franchisee of the local shop and contact them. 

Make certain that it is a well thought out letter and not something that sounds like a "jealous husband whose wife got a massage" and is pissed about her not telling him. It's a fine line and make sure that it's written in proper language.

Again, I would call for posting the dude on Cheaterville as well. This will most definitely hurt his chance at another "career" move as most employers these days look at applicant's Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin, and whatever page to see the real person. If/When his name shows up on a Google search with a link to Cheaterville...well...you will have done a good job. 

Sorry. Bury the f'ng scumbag.


----------



## Will_Kane

JCD said:


> These laws don't exist to enrich your pocket. These rules exist so they can toss out the reckless Peters in the business world without facing any legal indemnity from THEM.
> 
> You would have to prove that the company itself condoned these actions. So far, all you have is the word of your wife.
> 
> You can (and should) get him fired. That is more than enough. And if he's going to shoot you for a $20 an hour job, he's a bit unhinged to face 15-20 with Bubba.


These companies have policies on various topics. I don't know this company, but most companies have, for example, an ethics policy, which might state that employees are not supposed to fvck clients. The company would have some type of required training program. If they have locations all over, someone would be responsible for making sure the branches provided adequate training. The training mitigates any damages caused by the employees, it shows that the company took proper precautions to prevent foreseeable risks.

What if this branch location was behind on its training? What if Peter was not trained? He was carrying on an affair on company premises, where was the supervision? Was there any management oversight? Was management negligent in supervising its employees? Have other complaints been filed against the company for lack of management oversight or breaches of ethics?

As my dad used to say, sometimes you have to run it up the flag pole and see who salutes it.

These companies get sued for various things all the time. They have liability insurance and someone from the insurance company makes a decision whether to fight the lawsuit or settle. Most times they settle.

Without a doubt, Peter gets fired. Whether you get any money out of the deal is something you would have to take a chance on pursuing. You might find an attorney willing to take on the case for a percentage of whatever you settle for or win in the lawsuit. If you lose, you pay nothing, if you win the lawyer gets a percentage.

No matter what, you could file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission and the Better Business Bureau and the local Chamber of Commerce and any licensing authority that oversees places like that, maybe the Board of Health. The more noise you make, the more likely they will be willing to settle. The settlement agreement usually includes you agreeing to shut up about it in return for some money.


----------



## JCD

If masseuses need to be licensed, see about contacting the licensing authority.


----------



## SomedayDig

JCD said:


> If masseuses need to be licensed, see about contacting the licensing authority.


Since he obviously met her on premesis in his roll as "caregiver" I second this motion.


----------



## SomedayDig

Colorado Code

Of particular note is Page 5 under Grounds for Discipline-Definitions.

EDIT: 12-35.5-111, 1 (b)


----------



## JCD

TornNBroken said:


> I know you all are trying to prep me for a bad divorce (cause a D is a possibility), but I don't really understand the strong need to document everything. I was reading up on Colorado divorce law, and CO is a no fault state, which, in my understanding it means that it doesn't matter why you are getting a divorce. They treat every one the same in regards to splitting of assets, alimony, etc. I HAVE every bit of proof that she cheated multiple times, so don't freak out...but what am I ever gonna use it for?


You really want to avoid admitting or documenting anything. You don't want this to be real. Just...quietly dealt with in a corner in low tones without anyone the wiser.

Sometimes, SOMETIMES this works. We don't hear about it much, but it CAN work. I just can't tell you who it's worked for.

BUT...we can tell you about a dozen people who didn't expose, tried to keep things quiet...and 2 months to 2 years later found themselves in the exact same place. The man was 'kind' and 'understanding' and 'didn't see how exposure helped at all'...and they got divorced because...well...I can't tell you why.

Maybe it was because the woman was just broken. Maybe it was because the woman didn't respect his kindness. Maybe she thought that 'well...he loved me enough to forgive me ONCE...so he should be used to it'. Maybe he was still a horrible husband. No idea...but very rarely have I heard about exposure HURTING.

I've heard 'I wish I had exposed' many many times here. BUT...yeah...maybe not your parents. But certainly hers. Because she can divorce you. She has to face the consequences of her actions with them FOREVER...which strongly motivates her to keep on the straight and narrow.

One recent anecdote. Wife started an EA with a man. It went on for 4 weeks. She sent pictures of her genitals, told the man she loved him and shared intimate secrets from her marriage with the guy.

Hubby found out, left a pile of her texts, copies of her pictures sent, left his wedding ring, cut the utilities to the house and moved out...JUST LIKE THAT.

This isn't exposre but it's certainly shock treatment. She was the poster here. She was DESPERATE to get back to her husband after this.

Girls 'niced' have less motivation to change. If she's suddenly submissive, it's 'out of character'. 'People will know.'

If your wife shoots you through the grease, you have documents which allow you to proclaim the truth. If you don't mind being blamed for ending the marriage and casting out a pregnant woman (not very good for the dating resume), don't bother documenting a thing.

But honestly, what do you have besides her confession?


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> Well, I guess i didn't read the rule book...
> 
> Now do I necessarily need to contact his employer by certified mail or something? Or can I just go in and talk with the manager and let him know what's happened?


Write a letter and send it certified mail. Ask for a response.

My wife informed me that Peter Douchenozzle took advantage of his position as a massage therapist and four times had sex with my wife, twice on company premises.

At this time my wife is pregnant, perhaps with Mr. Douchenozzle's child. As you can imagine, this has had disastrous consequences for my marriage and I appear to be headed for divorce.

I am considering filing a lawsuit against Mr. Douchenozzle individually as well as against your company for alienation of affection and negligent infliction of emotional harm. I can't help but wonder how Mr. Douchenozzle could have sex with my wife not once, but twice, on your company premises. It appears to me that one or several of the following conditions exist in your company, which results in damage to the clients that pay for your company's services:

1. Inadequate hiring practices and lack of background checks resulting in the hiring of unethical employees like Mr. Douchenozzle.

2. Inadequate or nonexistent training of company employees regarding ethical relationships with clients.

3. Inadequate or nonexistent management oversight of employees, resulting in employees being able to have sexual relations with clients. It is unclear to me at this time whether my wife was paying for a massage or for sex with your massage therapists.

Please respond to this letter to tell me what actions you are taking in regards to this obviously toxic work environment that has resulted in the destruction of at least one young family. You can reach me by telephone at xxx-xxx-xxxx.

If I don't hear from you by April 23, 2013, I will pursue whatever legal options I have available to me, including, in addition to a possible lawsuit against your company for its negligence and lack of due care in hiring, training, and supervising its employees, filing complaints with the Federal Trade Commission, the Licensing Authority for Massage Therapists, the Local Board of Health, the Local Chamber of Commerce, and the Better Business Bureau.

I look forward to your reply,

Sincerely,

Torn N. Broken

When they call you, tell them you will be satisfied if they just fire Peter Douchenozzle. Or go for a settlement if you want, but you probably need an attorney for that.


----------



## aug

TornNBroken said:


> I know you all are trying to prep me for a bad divorce (cause a D is a possibility), but I don't really understand the strong need to document everything. I was reading up on Colorado divorce law, and CO is a no fault state, which, in my understanding it means that it doesn't matter why you are getting a divorce. They treat every one the same in regards to splitting of assets, alimony, etc. I HAVE every bit of proof that she cheated multiple times, so don't freak out...but what am I ever gonna use it for?


I was thinking more in terms of the future when she may start to massage () her story to make herself look better.


----------



## TornNBroken

aug said:


> I was thinking more in terms of the future when she may start to massage () her story to make herself look better.


Funny.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> She just responded:
> 
> "That's fine. When I emailed him I told him I told you, so he knows you know. He's not crazy and I don't think he'd do anything crazy but I don't know. Do whatever you need/want. *I just want my husband back*."


This is more like it. She definitely WAS trying to protect him before. Looks like she at least is starting to GET IT. She has to be ALL IN ON YOUR SIDE.

No sense in waiting to go after this guy. The sooner the better.

Everything is hinging on that paternity test.


----------



## TornNBroken

Will_Kane said:


> This is more like it. She definitely WAS trying to protect him before. Looks like she at least is starting to GET IT. She has to be ALL IN ON YOUR SIDE.
> 
> No sense in waiting to go after this guy. The sooner the better.
> *
> Everything is hinging on that paternity test*.


To a degree...

If its not my kid, I'm gone. Really no need for anything further.

If it is mine, I STILL have some thinking to do.


----------



## workindad

Post him on cheaterville and list his employer along with how things happened with his married client. Then send the complaint both to his manager and to the corporate office. Include a link to the cheaterville post with the massage envy name in it. That should get their attention.

Good Luck
WD


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> I know you all are trying to prep me for a bad divorce (cause a D is a possibility), but I don't really understand the strong need to document everything. I was reading up on Colorado divorce law, and CO is a no fault state, which, in my understanding it means that it doesn't matter why you are getting a divorce. They treat every one the same in regards to splitting of assets, alimony, etc. I HAVE every bit of proof that she cheated multiple times, so don't freak out...but what am I ever gonna use it for?


Your understanding of what "no fault" means in Colorado might be correct, but are you sure?

My understanding here (not CO) is it defines a starting point for settlement, but the judge can take various things into account and modify it from there. 

But that's not to say anything about how or why or when to document anything. Just wanted to alert you to the possibility you are making an incorrect assumption about "no fault."


----------



## carmen ohio

TornNBroken said:


> To a degree...
> 
> If its not my kid, I'm gone. Really no need for anything further.
> 
> If it is mine, I STILL have some thinking to do.


Dear TornNBroken,

This is exactly right.

Generally, I agree with the advice on TAM but, in this case, I think there is too much emphasis on outing the OM. You have no obligation to protect any other man whose wife he goes after, your job is to protect your interests and yours alone. If it makes you feel better to do something about the guy, fine, but don't do it because you are pressured to do so on TAM.

You have a lot of tough decisions to make in the very near future. Focus on these and, if you decide to R with your WW, on how best to do that. Don't get distracted just because a lot of the people who post on TAM hate cheaters and want to see them punished.

Still praying for you.


----------



## sandc

That's a great sentiment until it's your spouse that sleeps with the predator. 

Let every man's conscience be his guide.


----------



## TornNBroken

PieceOfSky said:


> Your understanding of what "no fault" means in Colorado might be correct, but are you sure?
> 
> My understanding here (not CO) is it defines a starting point for settlement, but the judge can take various things into account and modify it from there.
> 
> But that's not to say anything about how or why or when to document anything. Just wanted to alert you to the possibility you are making an incorrect assumption about "no fault."


Its just my meager understanding from a quick google search. I totally know that I'm no expert in these matters. And I AM documenting everything, I was just asking or some specifics as to how/when that information might become useful. I can see that if I had to convince any family or friends how it would be good to have, just didn't know about legally.


----------



## JCD

Judges are human. While the laws can be clear cut, they can use little things to change the balance.

For example, IF you get divorced (I am not taking that as given) she will trade on her pregnancy and 'the good of the baby'.

If you can show that she was sexually active in callous disregard to your paternity, the judge might figure that equals the 'childs needs' instead of putting Dr. Torn on the hook for 18 years of child support for a bastard child. After all, you're a doctor. You can afford it, right?

People can be very frivilous with other people's money. Make sure you have some ammo if the scales need a little adjustment.


----------



## jim123

TornNBroken said:


> To a degree...
> 
> If its not my kid, I'm gone. Really no need for anything further.
> 
> If it is mine, I STILL have some thinking to do.


You have to do what is best for you. If you R make sure you know everything before you try. Do not forgive until the pain goes away. If you R make sure you commit to it.

The fact she is ok with you contacting OM's work is very positive. She did not try and stop you.

Maybe the drive from his house to your house woke her up to life without you and what she would lose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## terrence4159

i make this offer to all guys in your situation (helps your only a state away) if you ever need any good old fashioned stress relief head on my way and ill take you out shooting, hand guns, semi auto shotguns, the evil assault rifles and the best sniper rifle money can buy.....ahhh nothing makes you feel more like a man than shooting stuff


----------



## Shaggy

Wait a second,

Your wife is supposed to be NC with this guy.

So her first act is to email and warn him that you know are going to report him to his employer? 

So not only is your wife still very much in contact with him, BUT, she's telling your game plan.

Have her hand her phone to you. You need to read what she sent and read everything he responded with.

And then you need to delete all his contact info from her phone and email. I might even suggest that you ,yourself, call the phone company and have his number blocked.

And next, about that polygraph, get it ASAP.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Not sure where you are going with this. I assume you are telling me that since I have no direct experience that my thoughts on the matter are not relevant? Just curious.
> 
> Sorry for the threadjack.


No, on the contrary, I do think that your thoughts matter.

In fact, I enjoy your posts because they are well thought out and very insightful.

What made me respond the way I did is your reference to knowing close relatives who have been impacted by affairs.

BIG DIFFERENCE!!

Until you have experienced the heart-wrenching devastation of infidelity, you really don't know and cannot fathom the hurt that's involved. 

I've always said that I'm not afraid of death -- only pain before death.

Well, the pain that I endured when I found out about my wife's affairs made me want to die - because it would've been a lot easier for me.

I appreciate your input and did not mean to offend you.

(And to PastOM, my comment was neither idiotic nor short-sighted. Please explain the short-sighted nature of my post if you will.)


----------



## TornNBroken

Shaggy said:


> Wait a second,
> 
> Your wife is supposed to be NC with this guy.
> 
> So her first act is to email and warn him that you know are going to report him to his employer?
> 
> So not only is your wife still very much in contact with him, BUT, she's telling your game plan.
> 
> Have her hand her phone to you. You need to read what she sent and read everything he responded with.
> 
> And then you need to delete all his contact info from her phone and email. I might even suggest that you ,yourself, call the phone company and have his number blocked.
> 
> And next, about that polygraph, get it ASAP.


What are you talking about?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bravenewworld

Torn I admire your integrity but I question why you have not exposed this to at least both your parents. Dr. Phil bugs the crap out of me but I think one good point of advice he gives is "only deal with the truth." 

I'm not as strident as other posters in saying you have to out her to church goers/acquaintances but family members and close friends you respect should know. Looping people in makes you both more accountable for your actions, good and bad. At this point, you need that. Also, it will lift your burden and at the very least, she owes you that. Keeping this secret will bury you.


----------



## sandc

Shaggy said:


> Wait a second,
> 
> Your wife is supposed to be NC with this guy.
> 
> *So her first act is to email and warn him that you know are going to report him to his employer?
> *
> So not only is your wife still very much in contact with him, BUT, she's telling your game plan.
> 
> Have her hand her phone to you. You need to read what she sent and read everything he responded with.
> 
> And then you need to delete all his contact info from her phone and email. I might even suggest that you ,yourself, call the phone company and have his number blocked.
> 
> And next, about that polygraph, get it ASAP.





TornNBroken said:


> What are you talking about?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's talking about this... she didn't specifically say in her email that you were going to tell his employer but I would not be surprised if she did. Neither would Shaggy.



TornNBroken said:


> My email I sent to her this morning:
> 
> "So I'm pretty sure I AM gonna report Peter to Massage Envy. He needs consequences, and no, not getting you anymore is not a consequence. He had no right to you in the first place. He needs to know that this thing is out in the open and is DONE. You've already told him it was done before, how is this time any different? He needs to know I know, and needs to know that he's been exposed. Not to mention the future women he might do inappropriate things with/to at work. Maybe he's done this before. Maybe if someone else would have exposed him previously, this wouldn't have happened with you. I feel obligated to society and to Massage Envy. You think any woman deserves to go get a massage from this ****ing creep? I don't.
> 
> And you already said he's harmless. Unless he's borderline psychotic already, losing a crappy paying part time job shouldn't make him snap. Does he have a criminal history? Is he an aggressive person? Were you scared to tell him it was over?
> 
> Needs to be done."
> 
> She just responded:
> 
> "That's fine. *When I emailed him I told him I told you, so he knows you know.* He's not crazy and I don't think he'd do anything crazy but I don't know. Do whatever you need/want. I just want my husband back."


And you agree with him.



TornNBroken said:


> So I already asked her what she would think about me going to his boss. Her initial response was that "it was my fault and I'd feel really bad cause he'd probably get fired." I told her that was the point, that he needed consequences too. She said his consequence was that she left him and he never gets to see or talk to her ever again." Then, without me saying anything else, she said, "and I'm sure our address is in their (M.E.) system and he could find us...I'd rather we just forget about him." Also, she said "I already have been a little nervous walking to the parking garage at work since we broke things off, and if you went after him, I'd be even more paranoid."
> 
> So yeah....of course my not TAM trained mind said, *SHE'S PROTECTING HIM*!!!!
> 
> But when I try to take my rage outta the picture, it does me no good to do anything to him. This is about me, and her, and the little kid to come....not this douche bag.
> 
> But God, I'd love to out him at work, on FB where his friends and family can see it, and where ever else I could fvck up his life a little bit.


----------



## TornNBroken

sandc said:


> He's talking about this... she didn't specifically say in her email that you were going to tell his employer but I would not be surprised if she did. Neither would Shaggy.
> 
> 
> 
> And you agree with him.


I'm sorry, but you guys are having trouble following the story. When she broke it off with him last week, she told him that she confessed to me. Hence, she said that he knows I know. She hasn't tried to talk to him since she told him they were done and that he wasn't to talk to her. I told her that part of the reason to expose him was so that he would know that I know about the affair. She was just making the point that he ALREADY knows that I know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

JCD said:


> You really want to avoid admitting or documenting anything. You don't want this to be real. Just...quietly dealt with in a corner in low tones without anyone the wiser.
> 
> Sometimes, SOMETIMES this works. We don't hear about it much, but it CAN work. I just can't tell you who it's worked for.
> 
> BUT...we can tell you about a dozen people who didn't expose, tried to keep things quiet...and 2 months to 2 years later found themselves in the exact same place. The man was 'kind' and 'understanding' and 'didn't see how exposure helped at all'...and they got divorced because...well...I can't tell you why.
> 
> Maybe it was because the woman was just broken. Maybe it was because the woman didn't respect his kindness. Maybe she thought that 'well...he loved me enough to forgive me ONCE...so he should be used to it'. Maybe he was still a horrible husband. No idea...but very rarely have I heard about exposure HURTING.
> 
> I've heard 'I wish I had exposed' many many times here. BUT...yeah...maybe not your parents. But certainly hers. Because she can divorce you. She has to face the consequences of her actions with them FOREVER...which strongly motivates her to keep on the straight and narrow.
> 
> *One recent anecdote. Wife started an EA with a man. It went on for 4 weeks. She sent pictures of her genitals, told the man she loved him and shared intimate secrets from her marriage with the guy.
> Hubby found out, left a pile of her texts, copies of her pictures sent, left his wedding ring, cut the utilities to the house and moved out...JUST LIKE THAT.
> 
> This isn't exposre but it's certainly shock treatment. She was the poster here. She was DESPERATE to get back to her husband after this.*
> 
> Girls 'niced' have less motivation to change. If she's suddenly submissive, it's 'out of character'. 'People will know.'
> 
> If your wife shoots you through the grease, you have documents which allow you to proclaim the truth. If you don't mind being blamed for ending the marriage and casting out a pregnant woman (not very good for the dating resume), don't bother documenting a thing.
> 
> But honestly, what do you have besides her confession?


JCD,

It would be so refreshing to read that, what was her screen name?


----------



## tom67

I think Myka the thread was-oh gawd.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

Decorum said:


> JCD,
> 
> It would be so refreshing to read that, what was her screen name?


It's the way it has to be done. I wouldn't allow contact until a full 6 months to a year went past. She has to go through these life altering experiences on her own and face the repercussions, until then she will NEVER know what she's sorry about and what she lost, because she would have never have lost it.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, but you guys are having trouble following the story. When she broke it off with him last week, she told him that she confessed to me. Hence, she said that he knows I know. She hasn't tried to talk to him since she told him they were done and that he wasn't to talk to her. I told her that part of the reason to expose him was so that he would know that I know about the affair. She was just making the point that he ALREADY knows that I know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know the OM is not your primary concern but a few thoughts:

Exposing the OM at work is most useful when the WS works at the same place. Not the case here. 

While certainly revenge is a plus for exposing the OM, the primary purpose of exposing the OM is to make certain that the affair ends. If they work together then that would be beneficial, especially if you can risk WS also losing her job. Again, that isn't the case here.

There are other lesser reasons I can think of to expose even if the wife doesn't work with OM:
1) Making a statement to the OM ... "don't fvck with me."
2) Making a statement to the WS ... "if you even entertain the thought of taking this underground ... don't fvck with me."
3) Maybe this guy will think twice about screwing around with someone else's wife. Especially one of his customers.

This statement bothers me: "it was my fault and I'd feel really bad cause he'd probably get fired." Sorry, this thread is getting pretty large and I haven't read every comment but ... did she pursue and/or instigate the affair ... or was this a case of him coming on to her and her not resisting? Sounds like the former.


----------



## carpenoctem

*Torn:
*
Please ignore this post if you are not in a mental state to consider these aspects right now.

QUOTE: From AUG's post:



aug said:


> Well, here's a scenario for consideration...
> 
> Peter or the masseuse used to live in FL and got his phone there. The phone number was given up by the 62y dude, and picked up by Peter or the masseuse. Your wife met him in FL during one of her visits (or she knew him from there or introduced by the masseuse). They kept in touch. He moved to be near her.
> 
> This could explain why she called the masseuse twice before exposure to you. To keep their story straight. Or, the masseuse got pissed and threatened to expose.




If this (above) connects the dots correctly:

Were you of the notion until now that her Florida fling was with some other man? Did she tell you that it was the same man?

If he did indeed move into your area to pursue a fling with your wife, it could denote a long-term, full-fledged relationship (not just some sex, as your wife tells you), or a long-term f-buddy arrangement *(difficult to tell which is worse – the serious nature of the former, or the trivialization of values involved in the latter).*

Do you have a clear timeline on how long he has been employed in his current position, and how long your wife has been seeing him there?

(your first post says 2 months, but usually at that stage, the BS has seen only the tip of the iceberg)

If any of the above is anachronistic, forgive me. It being a long thread, I could not cross-check this aspect (duration) in between the pages.


----------



## flyfishdoc

Torn I am joining this late but please read my story which began in October. MY STBXW and I began our marriage much like yours.
I went through all the gut wrenching turns after D day. I lost 50 lbs.
I wanted my wife back.....but i grew to understand my wife DIED. she killed herself.
The advice here saved my self respect. Life now is SOOOOO much better....I am glad I chose to go nuclear, expose the affair and notify OMs employer.
If he is a massage therapist, I would notify the State Licensing Board ASAP. He is a sexual predator.
Your are only giving her control over you now. I hope you have seen an attorney.
Perhaps in the future you could reunite with her but IMHO I could not be with my wife again even though 6 mos ago I was desperate to save my marriage. 
You deserve better as done the unborn child.


----------



## larry.gray

Almostrecovered said:


> Best of luck on the paternity test


Um, yeah.... which way?

Either answer sucks for him.


----------



## larry.gray

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, but you guys are having trouble following the story.


Just so you don't think you're losing your sanity, I followed what you posted and didn't see anything that lead me to think what Shaggy thought.


----------



## carpenoctem

*Torn:*

A very fundamental question (regardless of whether the child is yours, or not):

A woman who would not sleep around just / mainly because you won’t like it / you will find out / you are watching – how do you plan to anchor your future emotional and sexual well-being on such a person?

(I am saying ‘just because’, because she herself is befuddled by her need for this kind of periodic external validation. You cannot be reasonably confident that she would desist from repeating it out of her own comprehension of its inappropriateness and incongruity with an average married life. She has admitted to you she was / is more or less unable to comprehend or control that urge. Are you planning / hoping to make a change through long-term IC, religion or just plain generosity of spirit (yours)?)



In the first place, for a man to have to wonder whether the child in his wife’s womb is his or someone else’s – how does a man face that moment in life? I just cannot fathom.

Perhaps that is where staunch believers such as you score over agnostics such as me.



I presume (from your posts) that she is overall an exceptionally good, kind and compassionate person. She is caring, and will be supportive of you in sickness. Such virtues make her a great neighbor / friend / sibling / parent / caregiver. But all these implode when she violates the most fundamental virtue in a marriage – fidelity. That too, time and again.

How is the cost-benefit analysis in your Reconciliation (and future life with her) structured?

Or are you just taking a risk with destiny / fate?



You later posts clearly indicate you would walk if the child is not yours.

If that is the case, would staying in the marriage just for the child (if it is yours) be a sound plan of action, psychologically, *FOR YOU?* And if it will not be good for you, will it be good for the child, in the long run? Why don’t you whet it specifically with a psychologist / counselor?

Are you right now waiting for the results of a Prenatal Paternity Test?

(The Fetal Cell / DNA Prenatal Paternity Test?)


----------



## larry.gray

TornNBroken said:


> To a degree...
> 
> If its not my kid, I'm gone. Really no need for anything further.
> 
> If it is mine, I STILL have some thinking to do.


*IF* the kid turns out to be yours, *AND* you decide to try to reconcile, I suggest you check out this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html

There are multiple women who are trying to come to grips with having cheated on their husbands. It will be hard to interact with them, but they will be an invaluable resource in helping to deal with your wife. Your wife needs a lot of help, and needs GOOD therapy. Just any therapist doesn't help.


----------



## TornNBroken

Yes carpenoctem, test results should be here by next Friday they said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieceOfSky

Regarding speculation about PSOM's phone number having a FL connection:

Torn, there is an easy way to get to the bottom of this if you desire. Now that i think about it, in my experience sites like i mentioned are very darn good at tracing an individuals residency history, once you have a name, approximate age, and know where about they live. I would guess any apparent confusion the sites had about the number's ownership is really just a reflection of some fact (numbers get reused, etc.).


----------



## BK23

Just wanted to say, it seems like you are keeping a really level head considering the terrible circumstances and to wish you well. In your position, I don't think I could ever trust this woman again, but I get the pull towards R as well--especially considering the potential baby. Good luck wading through this mess.


----------



## Wiserforit

You need a copy of the email she sent to him when she told him it was over.


----------



## JCD

Any updates?


----------



## TornNBroken

Not really, not from my end. I'm just waiting for those results. My wife has been seeking help on her own end through some different marriage forums and has got in touch with some other counselors. She hadn't told me but I have her email password. So she keeps reinforcing my belief that she truly does want to change and be a good, faithful wife.


----------



## Wiserforit

TornNBroken said:


> Not really, not from my end. I'm just waiting for those results. My wife has been seeking help on her own end through some different marriage forums and has got in touch with some other counselors. She hadn't told me but I have her email password. So she keeps reinforcing my belief that she truly does want to change and be a good, faithful wife.


So if you have the email password you should have the email she sent the other man to end the affair.

I am confused then why you have not looked at it.


----------



## TornNBroken

Wiserforit said:


> So if you have the email password you should have the email she sent the other man to end the affair.
> 
> I am confused then why you have not looked at it.


She said she deleted it after she sent it, but she'd be could have him forward it back to her if I really wanted to see it.


----------



## Shaggy

TornNBroken said:


> She said she deleted it after she sent it, but she'd be could have him forward it back to her if I really wanted to see it.


In shaking my head at this,

Or she never sent it.

All NC letters should be read and sent by the BS to make sure they really get sent.


----------



## carolinadreams

This was one of the conditions we put into place for reconcilliation:
No deleted emails, messages etc. If I match up the phone bill and see a text, I should be able to open my wifes phone and find that text period, no exceptions.


Fortunately my wife text's all of about 3 people now me, an aunt, and a "real" TM gay friend for the past 30 years, who is also a strong friend of the marriage.

We keep it simple these days, and I advocate the same to almost everybody in reconciliation.


----------



## oregonmom

TornNBroken said:


> She said she deleted it after she sent it, but she'd be could have him forward it back to her if I really wanted to see it.


Check her trash bin just in case.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Will_Kane said:


> Write a letter and send it certified mail. Ask for a response.
> 
> My wife informed me that Peter Douchenozzle took advantage of his position as a massage therapist and four times had sex with my wife, twice on company premises.
> 
> At this time my wife is pregnant, perhaps with Mr. Douchenozzle's child. As you can imagine, this has had disastrous consequences for my marriage and I appear to be headed for divorce.
> 
> I am considering filing a lawsuit against Mr. Douchenozzle individually as well as against your company for alienation of affection and negligent infliction of emotional harm. I can't help but wonder how Mr. Douchenozzle could have sex with my wife not once, but twice, on your company premises. It appears to me that one or several of the following conditions exist in your company, which results in damage to the clients that pay for your company's services:
> 
> 1. Inadequate hiring practices and lack of background checks resulting in the hiring of unethical employees like Mr. Douchenozzle.
> 
> 2. Inadequate or nonexistent training of company employees regarding ethical relationships with clients.
> 
> 3. Inadequate or nonexistent management oversight of employees, resulting in employees being able to have sexual relations with clients. It is unclear to me at this time whether my wife was paying for a massage or for sex with your massage therapists.
> 
> Please respond to this letter to tell me what actions you are taking in regards to this obviously toxic work environment that has resulted in the destruction of at least one young family. You can reach me by telephone at xxx-xxx-xxxx.
> 
> If I don't hear from you by April 23, 2013, I will pursue whatever legal options I have available to me, including, in addition to a possible lawsuit against your company for its negligence and lack of due care in hiring, training, and supervising its employees, filing complaints with the Federal Trade Commission, the Licensing Authority for Massage Therapists, the Local Board of Health, the Local Chamber of Commerce, and the Better Business Bureau.
> 
> I look forward to your reply,
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Torn N. Broken
> 
> When they call you, tell them you will be satisfied if they just fire Peter Douchenozzle. Or go for a settlement if you want, but you probably need an attorney for that.


Awesome.

Also, this isn't to be mean, but you can also report the business to the vice squad of you local police station. Yes, if he took payment and performed the "services" at the establishment, it can be investigated as a prostitution ring. My friend's parlor was shut down because ONE and only ONE employee decided to go "above and beyond."


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> She said she deleted it after she sent it, but she'd be could have him forward it back to her if I really wanted to see it.


Is she technically savvy enough to realize when you delete messages using most tools, the deleted message really just gets moved to the "Deleted Messages" folder, or something like that?

Maybe you could still dig that up?

Also, was she using an on-line e-mail tool (like hotmail.com, gmail.com, etc.), or an e-mail client like Microsoft Outlook that pulls the messages down from the e-mail server and stores them locally on the harddrive?

If you are interested, and need some help with this, let us know what site hosts her account (hotmail, gmail, etc.) and what program, if any, she uses.


----------



## TornNBroken

oregonmom said:


> Check her trash bin just in case.


You think I haven't done that?


----------



## TornNBroken

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Awesome.
> 
> Also, this isn't to be mean, but you can also report the business to the vice squad of you local police station. Yes, if he took payment and performed the "services" at the establishment, it can be investigated as a prostitution ring. My friend's parlor was shut down because ONE and only ONE employee decided to go "above and beyond."


Well, If they were to have any suspicion of a "prostitution ring" as you call it, couldn't they investigate my wife for soliciting?


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> You think I haven't done that?


Well, it's hard to know how internet-savvy anyone is around here.


----------



## oregonmom

Figured you did, but you'd be surprised how many people don't do that.

Was there anything in the trash bin? If there was, she didn't delete just that one message from it and she probably never sent it to begin with. 

Regardless, I agree with everyone that deleting anything should not happen if she wants to R.


----------



## TornNBroken

PieceOfSky said:


> Well, it's hard to know how internet-savvy anyone is around here.


Sorry, didn't mean to sound snippy. I have snooped to the extent of my snooping knowledge. She said she actually sent it from her work email the morning after she confessed, not the account that I have already picked through.


----------



## PieceOfSky

PieceOfSky said:


> Well, it's hard to know how internet-savvy anyone is around here.


Also, some providers have a second-level of "deletion". For instance, hotmail.com, err, outlook.com, let's you -- for a limited time -- recover things that had been purged from your Deleted folder.

Anyways, I'd be happy to help technically if you are interested and need it, and otherwise I'll shut up for now


----------



## SomedayDig

First, Torn...do you _believe_ she sent the NC letter?

Second, did she tell you exactly what she said in it and do you _believe_ that?


----------



## sandc

TornNBroken said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to sound snippy. I have snooped to the extent of my snooping knowledge. She said she actually sent it from her work email the morning after she confessed, not the account that I have already picked through.


Dude, you're going through hell so we understand. Just don't forget we're here to help you. We have your best interests at heart. We can take it when you snap at us. Just don't bite down too hard. 

We don't want to assume you've done something obvious that is obvious to us. Many BS's have chronic cerebral paralysis by the time they reach us.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> She said she deleted it after she sent it, but she'd be could have him forward it back to her if I really wanted to see it.


I just really think it is odd that she would go into her sent folder and delete the email and then empty her trash. Why would she feel it necessary to take that proactive action? Not only is that unusual but if I were to send a letter like that because my spouse required me to as proof of good faith, I would copy my spouse on it.

I don't believe her.


----------



## oregonmom

TornNBroken said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to sound snippy. I have snooped to the extent of my snooping knowledge. She said she actually sent it from her work email the morning after she confessed, not the account that I have already picked through.


No worries, emotions running high, I was not offended.

I do wonder, did she always say she sent it from her work email, or only after you went looking for it?


----------



## TornNBroken

SomedayDig said:


> First, Torn...do you _believe_ she sent the NC letter?
> 
> Second, did she tell you exactly what she said in it and do you _believe_ that?


I DO believe that she sent it. And she did tell me what she said in it. Honestly guys, I really don't have any concern (maybe .0001%) that she still wants to be with this guy. I know you only have access to what I relay to y'all, but from my perspective, things are done, she's been VERY honest, remorseful, and willing to do ANYTHING I ask, and even things she has suggested on her own that she thinks would help, to move past this.

I'm just at the point where I'm trying to decide if I want to move forward with R, cause I think she's 100% there already. 

Not that I won't stay diligent and noisy....


----------



## TornNBroken

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I just really think it is odd that she would go into her sent folder and delete the email and then empty her trash. Why would she feel it necessary to take that proactive action? Not only is that unusual but if I were to send a letter like that because my spouse required me to as proof of good faith, I would copy my spouse on it.
> 
> I don't believe her.


If she had sent it from her private gmail, then yeah, I would be more suspicious. She said she sent it in the morning from work, and I could see why you wouldn't want that on your work email, even in the trash folder. But she could still sent it from her gmail....I dunno. I'm looking into getting access to her work email (without her knowledge) cause there were some things in her gmail trash that she probably would've deleted had she been thinking about it.


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to sound snippy. I have snooped to the extent of my snooping knowledge. She said she actually sent it from her work email the morning after she confessed, not the account that I have already picked through.


No apology necessary! First, you didn't seem snippy. Second, this is your thread and, let's just say, you've got quite a lot on your mind right now!!! That's the understatement of the year.

Also, as long as I'm here, keep in mind there are some that have snooping abilities most of us didn't realize existed. So, if you want something dug up from the technological trash heap of your/her existence, don't hesitate to ask if anyone knows how to do it.

(Dang, I'm about to give advice, and you might not need to hear it at this moment, so be forewarned My wife can access her work e-mail from our home PC. If I were in similar shoes as yours, I'd invite my wife over and then make this sincere and respectable and resonable demand: Let's go sit at the computer together, and log on to your work e-mail account and then promptly step into the other room. I *deserve* the chance to see what is there. If she'd refuse, I would make the consequences for that seem very severe --point out that her refusal is a confession that there is something she does not want me to see, and if she does not want to cooperate, then there is nothing at all left to work with. I'd give her one more chance to give me access. If she'd refuse, I'd show her to the door and then some.

YMMV.


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> I'm looking into getting access to her work email (without her knowledge)


Not sure what options you have at your disposal, but, at the risk of being Mr. Obvious:

Most folks configure their smartphones to remotely access their work e-mails. Maybe some of that config info is cached on a backup of your wife's phone one your home computer?

And/or if you got access to her phone somehow, you could at least get the mail-server address and username and various config stuff you might need. But then you'd still need her password. Which you might be able to guess, or might not. (Beware if you fail guessing too many times, they migh lock her account.)

Good luck.


----------



## oregonmom

Immediately deleted or not, her employer would still have access to it. Very possible your wife wouldn't know that though.

My WH has a pretty relaxed workplace, so this may not work for you. I just showed up for "lunch" one day unannounced and told him to open his email.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> If she had sent it from her private gmail, then yeah, I would be more suspicious. She said she sent it in the morning from work, and I could see why you wouldn't want that on your work email, even in the trash folder. But she could still sent it from her gmail....I dunno. I'm looking into getting access to her work email (without her knowledge) cause there were some things in her gmail trash that she probably would've deleted had she been thinking about it.


True, I thought about that when I realized it was the work email address. I still would have copied you on it. I understand wanting to delete something THAT personal from her work email but then why send it from her work email in the first place if she was concerned about it? She could have just as easily logged into gmail at work and sent it from there. I would guess she didn't send other incriminating emails to him through her work email when the affair was on ... for exactly that reason .. so why this one? Suspicious.

Anyway, not trying to beat this issue to death ... I'm just adding another perspective to try to help.


----------



## dubsey

PieceOfSky said:


> Not sure what options you have at your disposal, but, at the risk of being Mr. Obvious:
> 
> Most folks configure their smartphones to remotely access their work e-mails. Maybe some of that config info is cached on a backup of your wife's phone one your home computer?
> 
> And/or if you got access to her phone somehow, you could at least get the mail-server address and username and various config stuff you might need. But then you'd still need her password. Which you might be able to guess, or might not. (Beware if you fail guessing too many times, they migh lock her account.)
> 
> Good luck.


I think he can probably just ask. She confessed, he's not trying to bust her, just verify. If she says "no", she better have a good reason.

Also, she did offer to have POSOM send it back. I'd just ask to see the work email just to gauge the response.

Edit: I do like the idea of showing up at the office if she doesn't have a lap top she can bring home and log into.


----------



## TornNBroken

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> True, I thought about that when I realized it was the work email address. I still would have copied you on it. I understand wanting to delete something THAT personal from her work email but then why send it from her work email in the first place if she was concerned about it? She could have just as easily logged into gmail at work and sent it from there. I would guess she didn't send other incriminating emails to him through her work email when the affair was on ... for exactly that reason .. so why this one? Suspicious.
> 
> Anyway, not trying to beat this issue to death ... I'm just adding another perspective to try to help.


Yeah, I agree it IS a little odd.


----------



## dubsey

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, I agree it IS a little odd.


it is, but how clearly were you thinking that day? 

Now consider if it was you that blew up your own marriage and confessed when you could have let it disappear and your spouse would have been none-the-wiser. How clearly would you be thinking now?


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, I agree it IS a little odd.


I'm sure all this is just really overwhelming. I also think you want to believe that she is now an open book and is completely remorseful. That is COMPLETELY natural. You love her and that isn't going to change overnight ... anymore than she is going to change overnight. 

It very well may be that she is telling you the truth. I hope so. I am sitting here thinking ... what I don't want is to see is that discrepancies like this get overlooked because you want to give her the benefit of the doubt ... and then your heart gets broken again.


----------



## TornNBroken

Ok techies, I got her work email info. Is there a way to get to emails that have been deleted from the trash bin? What info do you need....I'll PM you.


----------



## Wiserforit

TornNBroken said:


> She said she deleted it after she sent it, but she'd be could have him forward it back to her if I really wanted to see it.


Sheesh. Sorry to hear this, but it is an important red flag. The only reason to delete it is because, if it existed, it had something in it she did not want you to see.

If she is concerned about a record in the workplace email system then she would not have used the work email in the first place.

Oh geez, let me guess... if she asks him to forward it, he will have deleted it already.  You can see that coming a mile off.


----------



## ironman

Wiserforit said:


> Oh geez, let me guess... if she asks him to forward it, he will have deleted it already.  You can see that coming a mile off.


Even worse, he could "sanitize" the email before forwarding it back.


----------



## JCD

Bottom line Torn, both these people are not being straightforward. She's hiding something.

Now there are many reasons for that.

Check her phone records and if she gets any text or email, look at it immediately.

If you want to engage in a bit of theater (you won't), I'd put a suitcase full of her clothes by the front door so she knows if she strays just a little or you find out one more lie, she knows exactly what her future holds.

Call it a visual aid. People learn 80% visually. Give her a reminder.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> I DO believe that she sent it. And she did tell me what she said in it. Honestly guys, I really don't have any concern (maybe .0001%) that she still wants to be with this guy. I know you only have access to what I relay to y'all, but from my perspective, things are done, she's been VERY honest, remorseful, and willing to do ANYTHING I ask, and even things she has suggested on her own that she thinks would help, to move past this.
> 
> I'm just at the point where I'm trying to decide if I want to move forward with R, cause I think she's 100% there already.
> 
> Not that I won't stay diligent and noisy....


That's exactly my point, Torn. All that matters is the reality you are living with. Any sort of innuendo about anything else she "did" is nothing but crap that's gonna confuse you. Deal with the facts that you have in front of your face. We most certainly can't see them through a screen full of pixels.

Trust me...there were a lot of posters telling me all sorts of sordid sh-t that Regret did, including 3 somes and videos/pictures...all kinds of stupid sh-t. And none of it was even close to the reality of her affair.


----------



## slater

^ this. Same with me. Every A is different though they follow the same script. But the details are different. The reality is you know enough to make your decision. If you decide to R you will need to know it all, but if you D there is no point. Deal with what you know. That is enough to process as it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

Everything is riding on the test results I believe he said next friday.


----------



## oregonmom

TornNBroken said:


> Ok techies, I got her work email info. Is there a way to get to emails that have been deleted from the trash bin? What info do you need....I'll PM you.


I'm not a techie, my advice would be to post in badbane's evidence gathering thread. He is really good with that stuff and pretty quick to reply.


----------



## TornNBroken

oregonmom said:


> I'm not a techie, my advice would be to post in badbane's evidence gathering thread. He is really good with that stuff and pretty quick to reply.


PieceofSky already helped me out. But thank you.


----------



## oregonmom

:smthumbup:


----------



## MattMatt

With regards to work emails I delete mine every month because it we don't we get warnings of going over our data limit. So work emails might be wiped for innocent reasons, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## badbane

TornNBroken said:


> Ok techies, I got her work email info. Is there a way to get to emails that have been deleted from the trash bin? What info do you need....I'll PM you.


what service does she use. Is it a Microsoft exchange email or it is through a third party service.


----------



## SomedayDig

MattMatt said:


> With regards to work emails I delete mine every month because it we don't we get warnings of going over our data limit. So work emails might be wiped for innocent reasons, too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Matt...just an observation and maybe it's nothing, but you seem to be sympathizing with the waywards on the last few threads giving THEM the benefit of the doubt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wiserforit

One thing that bothers me is how shamelessly open she was about the sex she was having with these other guys, kissing someone at a New Years' Eve party & all - she admits to one friend knowing but there are likely more people who know. Beyond this circle of people who did her/saw her being unfaithful in Florida. It is an odd coincidence indeed that this massage guy has a Florida telephone number too. 

Sex without a condom. And you already pointed out something wrong with that story. If it happened after March 4 then there was no reason to pull out and if I remember correctly there was only supposed to be one time after March 4 and that was the Tuesday she confessed to you.

The fact there were four phone calls back and forth on that Tuesday, then hours together afterwards, her confessing that night, and then telling him by an email the next morning it was over (one we have not seen) - this just doesn't make sense to me. Except maybe in the context of them deciding it would be their last night together and then her checking in with him that next morning to let him know how it went.

An affair partner is going to answer that email too. So it isn't just her message that was erased. 

And the statement about how devastated he would be if he was not able to see her anymore. Doesn't that actually imply much more than just meaningless sex? That sounds like saying this guy was in love with her. 

The business about looking for your house, and getting the street name from a facebook photo when a later story says the address is in the company files... 

I haven't been one of those suggesting worst case scenario. But the nature of her extremely risky behavior combined with things not adding up... I think there is still more you don't know. 

You mentioned four hour training runs. Geez, I finished the Equinox marathon in under four hours and the longest training run I did for that was 17 miles. I'm a combat sports nut, not a runner, but they don't recommend running more than three hours, to my understanding, so there is another red flag.


----------



## JCD

It's Friday. Dare I ask?


----------



## TornNBroken

JCD said:


> It's Friday. Dare I ask?


If you're referring to the paternity test, that's next friday (hopefully). They said the STD results would be 2 days, and its been 4, so I hope I actually find out by Friday.

On another note, I asked her for her work email and password and she gave it to me without hesitation. AND with some helpful tips from people on here, I was able to recover some deleted emails, including the NC email from that Wednesday morning. 

Drum roll......It was in fact a short, to the point, NC letter. And there has been nothing from him since. And she keeps doing more and more to show that she's working on herself and wants NOTHING but to be back with me.

Now for the bad.

This was NOT a strictly PA, and I feel like that's the one thing that she's been lying about. I think she believes I can get over a PA but not an EA. I've asked her in multiple different ways if she was emotionally attached to any of these guys, and she's always denied it. She said that she thinks this peter guy likes her a lot, but that's the extent of it.

HOWEVER, through the emails I found, this guy is head over heels in love with her, even offering to raise MY KID, if it turns out to be mine. He has it BAD for her. And sadly, she talks about loving him and the deep connection they have. How she feels safe and incredibly happy whenever they are together. 

I was just starting to wrap my head around this whole mess a bit until I read these emails. 

So here's the thing, in these emails she talks about this being the hardest decision and how awful she feels but she wants to make things work with me. 

According to these emails, she has truly left him. He says he's crushed, but is a big boy and he'll get over it, but that he'll always be there for her. She feels terrible for making him so sad, but says something about its not just about the two of them, that she'd be turning her whole world upside down...

So here's where I'm at...

Not only do I have to add an EA to the pile of **** that I'd have to get over in order to R. But now I have to wonder if she would PREFER to be with him, but she's just scared of all the repercussions (i.e. family and friends shame, losing my financial support, the baby, etc.). So if this baby is mine, and she wants to stay together (which she does) am I always gonna be wondering if SHE is now SETTLING for me?!  Here I had been contemplating if I could settle for HER in order to salvage something I had worked on for so long and to provide a solid family for my future kid. 

ALSO, where I had been thinking that she had come 100% clean with all the admissions she had been making and the willingness to answer any question, now I know she's been lying about the emotional involvement this whole time. 

****ing sucks, and I don't know if that's a deal breaker now.

She still tells me there's no way its not my kid, but the way he phrased his email "...I don't care that you are pregnant, my child, his child, it doesn't matter, I am so in love with you that I will help raise another man's child..." I'm still very skeptical.

Guess we'll see next week. 

She's planning on stopping by tomorrow to grab some laundry and toiletries and I'm currently debating whether to hang around and confront her about the emails, or wait to do it at another time.

Oh, and the other thing she talked about was how him being a JW would've been an issue down the road, even though he didn't think it would be. That's another aspect that I haven't brought up yet...and I apologize if there are any JWs reading this, but we've always thought JWs were CRAZY. We are both traditional Christians and we had some friends that turned out to be JWs and we would always make light of their ridiculous beliefs with it being a sin to vote or celebrate a birthday. Anyways, I just wonder if that was a big factor in this as well. If he had been just a 'regular' Christian, would she have been willing to leave me? She's also denied repeatedly ever seriously considering leaving me for him, but c'mon, what is she gonna tell me.

She's said a handful of things that I think she would say no matter what:

"I never considered leaving you"
"I never came with any of them"
"I could barely even feel them compared to you"
"I know I was cheating 'down' and I don't know why I would do that"

I know if the truth was the opposite of any of those, I'd still get those statements regardless...


----------



## turnera

You're looking at this wrong. YOU ARE IN CONTROL. YOU have the control here. YOU have the ability to leave her in the dust if SHE can't prove to YOU that she will bust her ass to make this up to you.

And if she doesn't? She has given you a pass to walk away and find the life you deserved.


----------



## TornNBroken

turnera said:


> You're looking at this wrong. YOU ARE IN CONTROL. YOU have the control here. YOU have the ability to leave her in the dust if SHE can't prove to YOU that she will bust her ass to make this up to you.
> 
> And if she doesn't? She has given you a pass to walk away and find the life you deserved.


No, I get that, and I do truly believe that she will bust her ass to make everything up to me. I do think she's done with him, I do think that she wants to be with me, and I do think she is 100% remorseful. BUT now there's the added component of an EA to deal with AND the fact that she's lied about it, even with me giving her multiple chances to confess to it being emotional.


----------



## walkonmars

That's bad news. You can't blame her for the lie though. In her mind she probably rationalizes that it's over between her and pete.

Trouble is, if he's truly smitten he'll surely contact her in some way in 8 months. He may think, and maybe hope, the child is his. So be prepared. 

You may be able to thwart that if you proceed with a complaint vs his workplace especially if your wife initiates and signs the complaint. It'll likely feel like a kick to the nads if he actually thinks there's a future w her if he bides his time.

If you stay with her she should be made aware that social media is like a kiddie park to a molester. And he is a molester in waiting. You don't want to discover 10 yrs fr now that he stopped by her page to offer a platonic lollipop.


----------



## aug

She fell for Peter. But she's also practical. She knows he can never match your future income level. She's no dummy.

Once she gets over this hurdle, she'll be coasting just fine. She'll be much better at it.


----------



## TornNBroken

aug said:


> Once she gets over this hurdle, she'll be coasting just fine. She'll be much better at it.


Sorry, I'm not following....


----------



## PieceOfSky

I don't know what I would do about the e-mails. Part of me would be tempted to not reveal what was obtained from them for now, and see if she makes any claims counter or consistent to what you've just learned.

My wife's EA was with her first serious boyfriend, 25+ post high school. That previous history made sense to me, but I just couldn't understand her interest considering he was a very addicted alcoholic, had been arrested for battering his wife, and, according to this guy's STBXW, had on occasion "borrowed" his (adult, I wanna believe) step daughter's panties for god knows what. It just seemed impossible she would ever leave me and our relatively normal life for all that drama; that surely she'd wake up.(she did, mostly). I tell myself his big attraction and advantage was his zip code -- he was from FantasyLand.

I know that speculation at this point is not cool, but I'll confess the FL number begs for an explanation; if you ever desire to run that to ground independently from asking her and trusting her answer, I think there are some simple things that can be done.


----------



## TornNBroken

My thinking is this...

Once I find out if the kid is mine or not, I need to make a decision. If I'm gonna try and R, I need to get her back in the house and start taking care of her and the baby. She's been telling me how she hasn't been able to eat well, is so stressed and a nervous wreck knowing she might lose me, it can't be good for the baby. So if I'm going to work things out, I need to make that decision this week.

I told her last week that if I found out she was lying about anything from here on out that I'd be gone. So what am I supposed to do if I tell her I know she's been lying tomorrow? I'm not gonna make a decision to stay before I find out the paternity results, so if I say 'gotcha!' tomorrow and then just send her on her way, I'm worried about how she's gonna physically gonna handle that, if she assumes its over. I know people have said that's a silly worry, but I don't think it is. There's been plenty of studies to show that stress is bad for a baby/pregnant mom. And what if she asks me if its over because I caught her lying? I still don't feel ready to make a decision without the baby info and without some more time to process the whole EA.


----------



## Wiserforit

TornNBroken said:


> I've asked her in multiple different ways if she was emotionally attached to any of these guys, and she's always denied it. She said that she thinks this peter guy likes her a lot, but that's the extent of it.
> 
> HOWEVER, through the emails I found, this guy is head over heels in love with her, even offering to raise MY KID, if it turns out to be mine. He has it BAD for her. And sadly, she talks about loving him and the deep connection they have. How she feels safe and incredibly happy whenever they are together.


TAM wisdom prevails. 




> So here's the thing, in these emails she talks about this being the hardest decision and how awful she feels but she wants to make things work with me.
> 
> According to these emails, she has truly left him. He says he's crushed, but is a big boy and he'll get over it, but that he'll always be there for her. She feels terrible for making him so sad, but says something about its not just about the two of them, that she'd be turning her whole world upside down...


Bottom line is she lied, and deleted the email because she needed to cover up lies - not because she was worried about leaving them on a work computer. 




> So if this baby is mine, and she wants to stay together (which she does) am I always gonna be wondering if SHE is now SETTLING for me?! Here I had been contemplating if I could settle for HER in order to salvage something I had worked on for so long and to provide a solid family for my future kid.


As you said, she lied so the question is whether you can conscience being with a liar. Because she is still lying and there will be more lies from a liar. 




> She still tells me there's no way its not my kid, but the way he phrased his email "...I don't care that you are pregnant, my child, his child, it doesn't matter, I am so in love with you that I will help raise another man's child..." I'm still very skeptical.


They didn't know whose child it was. He would have said "I don't care that it is his child". 

This, plus their deep love for each other tells us that the "four times" story is total B.S., along with condom use. 




> She's planning on stopping by tomorrow to grab some laundry and toiletries and I'm currently debating whether to hang around and confront her about the emails, or wait to do it at another time.


Nope. You still don't have it all. And you also want to see how far she is going to play the lies she has already fielded, give you even more, or whether she comes clean on her own. 


The one thing she did not tell him unequivocally was that she loved her husband and was staying with her husband because of that. The way she has done this smacks of retaining him as a Plan B in case you leave her. 

Seems to me she had to tell you about the affair at least in part on account of not knowing whose child it was. Better for her to tell you than for you to discover on your own. The whole trickle-truth principle is based on the theory that if they tell you everything at once you will leave. So therefore dribble just a little less than they calculate will have you leaving them each time. Let you recover. Then a little more. 

The fact she doesn't know whose child it is means you can bluff with the test result even if it is your child. Then ask her to come clean, 

But the fact is you already said if she lied again you were done. And she has.


----------



## TornNBroken

Wiserforit said:


> But the fact is you already said if she lied again you were done. And she has.


Yeah, this is troubling me. I know I can't cave in and she has to know that the consequences are real if she's ever gonna change, but what now then. Do I need to divorce her now to show her I'm serious? No, I'm not ready for that. I don't know what to do.


----------



## InlandTXMM

Sorry, no way it was only 4 times now. No one falls so deeply in love they are begging to raise another man's child after 4 sessions of sex.

This was more times than she can remember, Torn.

You are still chipping away at the very tip of this one.


----------



## sandc

She is trickle truthing. You knew that was coming.

The EA part, bad. She lied about being in love with him, worse.

And then there's this kicker:


TornNBroken said:


> even offering to raise MY KID, if it turns out to be mine


Even IF it is yours... so, they discussed this and at least in your wife and OM's mind, there is some question about who the father really is. Sounds like your wife isn't really sure but she's biding her time and hoping it's yours.

Here's what you could do. You could go ahead and file for divorce. She can think you're done and you can appear to be showing her consequences for her actions. If she does some super-duty heavy lifting you can always not go through with the D.

You have at least until next Friday to consider your options. I'd print the emails out and sit on them for now.


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> I'm worried about how she's gonna physically gonna handle that, if she assumes its over. I know people have said that's a silly worry, but I don't think it is. There's been plenty of studies to show that stress is bad for a baby/pregnant mom. And what if she asks me if its over because I caught her lying?


Not silly at all, IMO. Seems like a natural sort of concern. She IS your wife, and possibly carrying YOUR child, and you are a caring man in general.

As much as it seems standing ground by enforcing consequences is frequently espoused here towards supporting chances of R, I could see myself in situations where I might need to back down from a previously drawn line in the sand. If I did back down, I hope I would have let her see the struggle and pain that led me to make that decision, and that it might not be have it in me to care next time.


EDIT: after reading the posts above that came in while I was typing, though, I gotta say, we'll, both options suck. And if someone keeps lying and lying, what else can you do? It gets to a point where the harshness of what needs to be done is all on them.


----------



## TornNBroken

Well, they're already printed and sitting on my desk right now...

But just for clarity, as I kept asking her questions about how emotionally involved they were, she did bring up his mention of taking care of the kid:

"I wish I could prove that multiple times I broke things off, he even kind of agreed with me or would say "I promise, I can be good. We can just be friends and I won't be inappropriate", then we really would be "good" for awhile and then we'd get back into a pattern of flirting and bad choices. When I told him I was pregnant I for sure thought that would "sober" things up. The second or third time I "broke" things off, he sent me this email the next day saying " he never wanted kids but if raising another mans child meant he could be with me, that'd make him so happy". It's weird and creepy and ****ed up but I promise you, I ended things with him and I knew the only way this would come to an end is if I came clean to you about it. I also have been living with guilt and shame the past two years and I just want a fresh new start...that's why I told you everything, because I want to start over, but I need your help."

So she's trickling it...


----------



## InlandTXMM

I know you hate theorizing, but here it is: she weighs being a mom with you or being a mom with massage boy.

You are obviously the better choice. She's making a decision about who will be the best provider of a lifestyle for her and the baby. But she was in love with this guy a week ago.

Pragmatism and hypergamy aren't really good reasons to R, especially for the B husband.


----------



## tom67

InlandTXMM said:


> I know you hate theorizing, but here it is: she weighs being a mom with you or being a mom with massage boy.
> 
> You are obviously the better choice. She's making a decision about who will be the best provider of a lifestyle for her and the baby. But she was in love with this guy a week ago.
> 
> Pragmatism and hypergamy aren't really good reasons to R, especially for the B husband.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

InlandTXMM said:


> Sorry, no way it was only 4 times now. No one falls so deeply in love they are begging to raise another man's child after 4 sessions of sex.
> 
> This was more times than she can remember, Torn.
> 
> You are still chipping away at the very tip of this one.


I agree. This has been going on for a long time. She has minimized it. 

She doesn't know whose baby it is.

I'm very sorry Torn.


----------



## TornNBroken

So is that it then? Is that the point of no return? Its one thing to try and forgive and R with someone who did something stupid physically and now regrets it, but its another to try and forgive someone for falling in love with someone else, but who wants to now be with me because "logically" I'd be the better husband.


----------



## tom67

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I agree. This has been going on for a long time. She has minimized it.
> 
> She doesn't know whose baby it is.
> 
> I'm very sorry Torn.


Torn God bless you.


----------



## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> So is that it then? Is that the point of no return? Its one thing to try and forgive and R with someone who did something stupid physically and now regrets it, but its another to try and forgive someone for falling in love with someone else, but who wants to now be with me because "logically" I'd be the better husband.


Yes.

One is about healing you.

The other is still entirely about her.


----------



## TornNBroken

Thanks.


----------



## Wiserforit

TornNBroken said:


> So is that it then? Is that the point of no return? Its one thing to try and forgive and R with someone who did something stupid physically and now regrets it, but its another to try and forgive someone for falling in love with someone else, but who wants to now be with me because "logically" I'd be the better husband.


Tom, you came in ahead of an hourly wage massage boy that is in a religion she disapproves of.

How you going to come in against someone who makes a lot more money, has the right religion, and is younger? 

A girl who is in great shape can pull men from any age group. 

This is not an emergency. You have time to think. But if you stay with her now you have taught her that lying works and that ultimatums from you can be ignored. So filing seems to be warranted even if you reconciled down the road.


----------



## LostViking

Methinks Torn just had an "epiphany".


----------



## TornNBroken

I don't know about an epiphany. I still can't imagine divorcing if the kid is mine.


----------



## Wiserforit

TornNBroken said:


> I don't know about an epiphany. I still can't imagine divorcing if the kid is mine.


You will eventually anyway. The irony is going to be if she leaves you first.


----------



## InlandTXMM

Then she wins, frankly.

Romantically and sexually, she had you as Plan B.
Once a baby showed up, and she got a real offer from Petey to step in and be the breadwinner, your bank account looked a whole lot better, so she came forward to end it and try to hang on to the better lifestyle if she could. Like chess pieces, you suddenly became Plan A and she moved Petey to backup.

But if you drop her, she still has Petey. So why not go for the pot of gold first, and instead settle for massage boy? Perfectly, coldly, calculatingly, logical.

And two men ready to fall on their swords for her? How lucky can a girl get?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Love is about making a choice for some one. If she chooses you, she can choose to love you. The romantic love you want her to have for you is now for the OM, but if contact is broken, can be for you in the future. You can't expect the EA to change to you right now. 

The question you have to answer for yourself is: Do I want to give it a try or not.

If you do, then you have to accept the reality of the two of you as you are now. 

And regard the possibility of growing together again the coming month's, maybe years.


----------



## 2asdf2

TornNBroken said:


> So is that it then? Is that the point of no return? Its one thing to try and forgive and R with someone who did something stupid physically and now regrets it, but its another to try and forgive someone for falling in love with someone else, but who wants to now be with me because "logically" I'd be the better husband.


Forgiving is not a strictly logical decision. You should not give yourself deadlines for that.

As was mentioned in an earlier post (apologies to the author, as I can't remember who said it.) trickle truth is (at this stage and in the WS's view) a function of how much can the BS stand without walking away.

Don't punish her for omitting the items that she'll think will make you walk. Understand this aspect of TT. Punishment -severe at that- is called for as a deterrent for the future if you decide to R.

Having said that -and while your thoughts settle and coalesce into a decision- you need to impose the severest measures you can think of, so that you leave no doubt as to the critical state of your relationship and as a deterrent for the future, as I already said. 

Divorce papers can always be withdrawn, and divorce -itself- is a reversible process.


----------



## LostViking

TornNBroken said:


> I don't know about an epiphany. I still can't imagine divorcing if the kid is mine.


Then you might as well lay down and be her doormat for the rest of your marriage until she finds another guy to cheat with and eventually leaves you. 

You have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it. It does not look like you are willing. 

I am sorry for you Torn, but I only learned long ago to only invest my energy to help others who really want help, and who take the advice given them and make bold, decisive moves to hoist themselves out of the hole they are in and better their lives. 

You do not seem to want to do that. 

Good luck to you Torn. I will not revisit this thread.


----------



## TornNBroken

Here was our conversation regarding going to him if I left:

"Torn, I love you. And I realize that I love you more than I ever thought. I realize that I was looking to you to fulfill my wants and needs and I should have been looking to God first and you second, and everything in this life is completely meaningless if I don't have you. I know my actions were the opposite of love. Maybe I do have an addiction. But I really believe there is hope for me, not just to never cheat again but to be better in a LOT of ways- more patient, less superficial, more focused on things that matter. I want to be different. Please just give me the chance. I will show you"

"And if I don't give you another chance you'll go back to Peter, no?"

"No, see that's the thing...I knew what he "gave" me was fleeting. I promise I would never contact him again. Even if the baby happened to be his (even though I know it's not), I would never go back to him. I would be a single mom. I associate him with ruining my life and causing me more darkness and despair than I ever thought would be possible. (Even though I'm just as much to blame)"


----------



## PieceOfSky

LostViking said:


> I am sorry for you Torn, but I only learned long ago to only invest my energy to help others who really want help, and who take the advice given them and make bold, decisive moves to hoist themselves out of the hole they are in and better their lives.
> 
> You do not seem to want to do that.
> 
> Good luck to you Torn. I will not revisit this thread.


Nonsense.


----------



## InlandTXMM

Torn, when 4 times becomes 40, will you be so quick to stay? You still don't have even half of what she's done.

EDIT: Obviously this is a decision that needs to be made soberly and over a period of time. I am not advocating divorce here. I AM advocating for your self-respect and your right to have the marriage she promised you, and you gave her.

DO NOT force yourself to stay if it will kill a part of your soul. Life is far too short to spend it bitter and paranoid. And knowing she always had the better hand.


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## TornNBroken

What do you mean 'quick to stay?' I'm not being quick to do anything. I'm just trying to get as much as the info that I can before I make THE BIGGEST DECISION OF MY LIFE. Sorry I haven't rushed to the divorce lawyer yet.


----------



## InlandTXMM

I do not understand why you are SO angry when the opinion isn't the one you want. BTW I edited my comment - reread it for clarity.

I'm a year out from R from a relatively minor EA, and I can tell you, after a couple of months of desperation to keep her comes 6 months or more of anger, resentment, and actual meanness toward her. This process happens in steps, and you aren't even to the starting gate yet because you have less than half of the truth so far.

I am so sorry, really, for the pain you are facing. But you do an awful lot of attacking the messenger here.


----------



## PieceOfSky

I don't follow the claims made that she loves Peter. Yes, she lied about the EA. But I just don't remember anything that made me think she was in deeply. Infatuated, perhaps. Giddy from the newness or whatever, and the absence if realworld concerns in her escape-time with him. I don't know. But I'm asking is it an unwarranted leap from the known facts to say "she loved him"?

I'm not saying the advise coming in lately is bad or good, but the premise there is/was love from her to him seems unjustified. Maybe I've forgotten something?


----------



## InlandTXMM

So far she's minimized the PA substantially. I say again, no man begs to raise another man's child only 4 orgasms into an adulterous affair. And remember, they were spread out over 2 years, allegedly.

I think it's fair to assume she's also downplaying her feelings for Torn's sake.


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## TornNBroken

2 months, not 2 years.


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## InlandTXMM

I meant "quick to stay" because you have already said, if the child is yours, you cannot see yourself divorcing her. 

No divorce usually means, staying.


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## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> 2 months, not 2 years.


Pardon. The entire unfaithful period was 2 years, right? Just this guy for 2 months. (That you know of.)


----------



## TornNBroken

PieceOfSky said:


> I don't follow the claims made that she loves Peter. Yes, she lied about the EA. But I just don't remember anything that made me think she was in deeply. Infatuated, perhaps. Giddy from the newness or whatever, and the absence if realworld concerns in her escape-time with him. I don't know. But I'm asking is it an unwarranted leap from the known facts to say "she loved him"?
> 
> I'm not saying the advise coming in lately is bad or good, but the premise there is/was love from her to him seems unjustified. Maybe I've forgotten something?


She told him she loved him. That being with him she realized how much she 'missed having butterflies'.....(those fvcking butterflies again). She missed being "madly in love, feeling giddy over silly things like text messages, and all those feelings you give me so easily. When I'm with you I am so incredibly happy. I feel safe. I feel complete. I agree with you that we have a deep connection that is hard to find."

So yeah, its sounds like she thinks she's in love. To me, it sounds like the damn infatuation phase that she always told me she missed with us. She went on in her letters to him to say that she thinks down the road they wouldn't feel the same, once that newness wore off. So I think she kinda realizes that it is infatuation maybe? I don't know what to believe she truly felt, but those are some damn strong words from her.


----------



## TornNBroken

InlandTXMM said:


> Pardon. The entire unfaithful period was 2 years, right? Just this guy for 2 months. (That you know of.)


Correct. The FL guys over the span of about a week, 2 years ago, and then nothing until these last 2 months....allegedly.


----------



## PieceOfSky

InlandTXMM said:


> I do not understand why you are SO angry when the opinion isn't the one you want. BTW I edited my comment - reread it for clarity.
> 
> I'm a year out from R from a relatively minor EA, and I can tell you, after a couple of months of desperation to keep her comes 6 months or more of anger, resentment, and actual meanness toward her. This process happens in steps, and you aren't even to the starting gate yet because you have less than half of the truth so far.
> 
> I am so sorry, really, for the pain you are facing. But you do an awful lot of attacking the messenger here.


Well, I don't buy that. I have followed much of this thread and think I've seen anger and frustration at times, felt a little myself, probably caused some, but I don't think it's been so much the the advice that has been troubling. Nor does OP seem unwilling to listen to things he might not want, and seems quite rational and even-keeled under the circumstances.

But, even if the claims of him getting SO angry have some truth in them (and I SO don't think so), I think folks should cut him some slack. If a guy in his shoes cannot blow off a little steam here on his own thread, why are we here?


----------



## warlock07

TornNBroken said:


> No, I get that, and I do truly believe that she will bust her ass to make everything up to me. I do think she's done with him, I do think that she wants to be with me, and I do think she is 100% remorseful. BUT now there's the added component of an EA to deal with AND the fact that she's lied about it, even with me giving her multiple chances to confess to it being emotional.


How the hell do you get into an EA with a massage guy? That is so cliche that it is laughable She had lots of moments where she could have thought about you. 



> HOWEVER, through the emails I found, this guy is head over heels in love with her, even offering to raise MY KID, if it turns out to be mine.


Not only is she not sure about the paternity, the affair might have started much earlier if he is not sure of the paternity. And that the condoms usage is probably a lie.

I told her last week that if I found out she was lying about anything from here on out that I'd be gone.

And while I do think she is probably done with him, the reason she ended it is not you. You think she is not lying because she is convinced she is not lying. She is lying to herself, so you cannot even trust her words however convincing they might be.



> I told her last week that if I found out she was lying about anything from here on out that I'd be gone.


And you wonder why she had no issues cheating on you repeatedly ?


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## TornNBroken

warlock07 said:


> And you wonder why she cheated on you repeatedly ?


See, THIS is what pisses me off. Ignorant comments that are pointless. You're proposing that she cheated on me because of my unwillingness to stick to my word about consequences, and your sole evidence is a comment I made just a few days ago, and just TODAY found out that she is lying. I have yet to see her or make any decision based off of what I found out today, yet you come in here and make some bold proclamation to what, make yourself sound like you know it all? I don't get it. All you did was try and insult me or something...to what end? Baseless and unhelpful. 

Thanks.


----------



## warlock07

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/40734-i-am-pissed-never-before.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/46264-headspinning.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/65082-im-having-real-hard-time-dealing.html

Read these threads. Men who ultimately regretted reconciling with serial cheaters.


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## warlock07

TornNBroken said:


> See, THIS is what pisses me off. Ignorant comments that are pointless. You're proposing that she cheated on me because of my unwillingness to stick to my word about consequences, and your sole evidence is a comment I made just a few days ago, and just TODAY found out that she is lying. I have yet to see her or make any decision based off of what I found out today, yet you come in here and make some bold proclamation to what, make yourself sound like you know it all? I don't get it. All you did was try and insult me or something...to what end? Baseless and unhelpful.
> 
> Thanks.


You are right, I apologize. It wasn't intentional and I wish I phrased it better(I was editing it actually). How about "she knows she does not have to face consequences because you probably wouldn't leave her anyway ? "


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> She told him she loved him. That being with him she realized how much she 'missed having butterflies'.....(those fvcking butterflies again). She missed being "madly in love, feeling giddy over silly things like text messages, and all those feelings you give me so easily. When I'm with you I am so incredibly happy. I feel safe. I feel complete. I agree with you that we have a deep connection that is hard to find."
> 
> So yeah, its sounds like she thinks she's in love. To me, it sounds like the damn infatuation phase that she always told me she missed with us. She went on in her letters to him to say that she thinks down the road they wouldn't feel the same, once that newness wore off. So I think she kinda realizes that it is infatuation maybe? I don't know what to believe she truly felt, but those are some damn strong words from her.


Well, for my wife's EA, I never had the "opportunity" to hear that kind of talk. But the OM's BS reported she heard a voice mail with "loving talk". Whatever talks my WS had with OM, I don't see it as "true" feelings, because it was all too easy for her because she was on fantasy land. 

Regardless, the real issue for me with my wife is that she chose to enter fantasy land, and lied. And that's what I've based my decisions on. It not him+her I've been wary about. Just her. And me. And me+her.

Ymmv.


----------



## TornNBroken

PieceOfSky said:


> Well, for my wife's EA, I never had the "opportunity" to hear that kind of talk. But the OM's BS reported she heard a voice mail with "loving talk". Whatever talks my WS had with OM, I don't see it as "true" feelings, because it was all too easy for her because she was on fantasy land.


That's what I wonder, is if she was just caught up in this fantasy and not having "true feelings" like you mention. I get why it would be exciting. If there was a good looking woman who would give me massages, compliment me, tell me she was so in love with me, let me fvck her, and never fight or argue or have any of the downsides of a real relationship, I might "love" that too. I would never do it, but if I was in that fantasy, I can't imagine truly developing love. Love, to me, comes from going through the good times AND the bad times with someone, coming out on the other side and deciding there's no other person you would've rather spent ALL of those moments with, good or bad.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> She told him she loved him. That being with him she realized how much she 'missed having butterflies'.....(those fvcking butterflies again). She missed being "madly in love, feeling giddy over silly things like text messages, and all those feelings you give me so easily. When I'm with you I am so incredibly happy. I feel safe. I feel complete. I agree with you that we have a deep connection that is hard to find."
> 
> So yeah, its sounds like she thinks she's in love. To me, it sounds like the damn infatuation phase that she always told me she missed with us. She went on in her letters to him to say that she thinks down the road they wouldn't feel the same, once that newness wore off. So I think she kinda realizes that it is infatuation maybe? I don't know what to believe she truly felt, but those are some damn strong words from her.


Those really are difficult words to hear. Perhaps it is infatuation but that is speculation. I am really sorry; this just gets worse.

I'll repeat what's been said here though ... I find it almost impossible that not only she used those strong words but HE has fallen for her deeply enough to offer to raise the baby with her even if it is YOUR baby ... but they only got together 3 times (twice in one night for a total of 4) over a two month time period. 

In addition, CLEARLY there is some question between the two of them whose baby it is. She tells you she knows it is yours but their correspondence indicates otherwise. At the very least he is unsure and she did not tell him she is certain it is yours. She is a pregnant woman ... she knows what happened when it happened. She has played it over and over in her mind, looked at the calendar several times, doing the math many times. If she knows it is yours she would have told him and there would be no question. She wouldn't have left any room for confusion on that point. 

The condom story does not make sense. The time frame doesn't make sense. The number of encounters doesn't make sense.

You REALLY need to press her on those points.


----------



## TornNBroken

warlock07 said:


> You are right, I apologize. It wasn't intentional and I wish I phrased it better(I was editing it actually). How about "she knows she does not have to face consequences because you probably wouldn't leave her anyway ? "


She doesn't know that she doesn't have to face consequences, that's what I was trying to say. So far she admitted she was cheating, and all she has gotten from me so far are orders that she has followed. I told her to give me her work and FB passwords. I told her I was gonna come home when I was ready. I told her to go to her friends cause she wasn't staying at our place when I came home. I have been very 'alpha' as it is so popularly referenced here since I found out. So to try and imply that I have somehow displayed weakness or being a doormat and that has enabled her in some fashion is not true. 

I worry about that happening if I don't call her out on the EA and the lying and do something additional, and that's what I was asking advice about here tonight. But nothing of that nature has happened up until this point.


----------



## aug

TornNBroken said:


> So is that it then? Is that the point of no return? Its one thing to try and forgive and R with someone who did something stupid physically and now regrets it, but its another to try and forgive someone for falling in love with someone else, but who wants to now be with me *because "logically" I'd be the** better husband*.



Not because you be a better husband. But because you can provide better for her. You were already a husband to her. And yet she took a lover on the side. 

I dont think you'll be able to provide the sexual thrill her bad-boy lover can. If you can or did, why would she had fallen for her massage boy? It was only the pregnancy that brought her to decide a practical decision to stay with you, the better financial provider.


----------



## carpenoctem

You are taking an absonant risk if you continue in this marriage, Torn.

It might still work out okay in the long run, as some of those absonant risks do.

The question is: should you dedicate the rest of your life (or at least many years in the immediate future) *to this particular risk management?*


If you do, working your way up from the worst-case scenario might be less torturous.

(Worst case scenario: The child not being yours (I am including this because it does not seem as though you would walk even if the child is not yours, if she is remorseful enough - if I am wrong, I apologize), the child being yours, but the connection with the OM going farther back than 2 months, more men in her past than you know of now, etc).



Side-note: Some WWs do go along with the lovey-dovey bit just / mostly to retain the OM’s attention.


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> I worry about that happening if I don't call her out on the EA and the lying and do something additional, and that's what I was asking advice about here tonight. But nothing of that nature has happened up until this point.


If she wasn't pregnant, and so there were no health concerns for her or the developing fetus, would the answer be clear to you?

(Don't feel obliged to answer.)


----------



## TornNBroken

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> You are taking an absonant risk if you continue in this marriage, Torn.
> 
> It might still work out okay in the long run, as some of those absonant risks do.
> 
> The question is: should you dedicate the rest of your life (or at least many years in the immediate future) *to this particular risk management?*
> 
> 
> If you do, working your way up from the worst-case scenario might be less torturous.
> 
> (Worst case scenario: The child not being yours (I am including this because it does not seem as though you would walk even if the child is not yours, if she is remorseful enough - if I am wrong, I apologize), the child being yours, but the connection with the OM going farther back than 2 months, more men in her past than you know of now, etc).
> 
> Side-note: Some WWs do go along with the lovey-dovey bit just / mostly to retain the OM’s attention.


I can tell you right now that if it comes back that I'm not the father, I'm gone. No questions asked. And PLEASE, quote me on that if I ever come on here talking about raising masseuse [email protected]'s kid.


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## TornNBroken

PieceOfSky said:


> If she wasn't pregnant, and so there were no health concerns for her or the developing fetus, would the answer be clear to you?
> 
> (Don't feel obliged to answer.)


The answer of whether to confront her tomorrow about the EA or not? Or are you referencing something else?


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> She doesn't know that she doesn't have to face consequences, that's what I was trying to say. So far she admitted she was cheating, and all she has gotten from me so far are orders that she has followed. I told her to give me her work and FB passwords. I told her I was gonna come home when I was ready. I told her to go to her friends cause she wasn't staying at our place when I came home. I have been very 'alpha' as it is so popularly referenced here since I found out. So to try and imply that I have somehow displayed weakness or being a doormat and that has enabled her in some fashion is not true.
> 
> I worry about that happening if I don't call her out on the EA and the lying and do something additional, and that's what I was asking advice about here tonight. But nothing of that nature has happened up until this point.


This is a tough one Torn (BTW, I don't think you are being a doormat) She hasn't told you the truth. She has told you some of the truth but I suspect the real truth is much worse. So, she has broken your minimum rule and the consequence is that you will leave her. You really aren't ready to make that decision yet. That's ok. I wouldn't be ready to make that decision yet. What I would want to know is the ENTIRE truth and I would want to know the results of the paternity test.

So what do you do if you press her and she admits that she has lied to you? Ideally you would wait until you find out the results of the paternity test. Those results might change how you respond to an admission by her that she lied. If the baby is yours, I don't think you look weak at all if you backpedal a bit on your requirement as long as at that time you accept nothing but the truth.


----------



## aug

TornNBroken said:


> Here was our conversation regarding going to him if I left:
> 
> "Torn, I love you. And I realize that I love you more than I ever thought. I realize that I was looking to you to fulfill my wants and needs and I should have been looking to God first and you second, and everything in this life is completely meaningless if I don't have you. I know my actions were the opposite of love. Maybe I do have an addiction. But I really believe there is hope for me, not just to never cheat again but to be better in a LOT of ways- more patient, less superficial, more focused on things that matter. I want to be different. Please just give me the chance. I will show you"
> 
> "And if I don't give you another chance you'll go back to Peter, no?"
> 
> "No, see that's the thing...I knew what he "gave" me was fleeting. I promise I would never contact him again. Even if the baby happened to be his (even though I know it's not), I would never go back to him. I would be a single mom. I associate him with ruining my life and causing me more darkness and despair than I ever thought would be possible. (Even though I'm just as much to blame)"



Wow, she's good at spinning and playing at your emotions. Is she in marketing?

I suggest you make your decision on cold hard facts. Here's two:

1. She's a serial cheater. I believe a serial cheater does not change overnight but over years and only if true intention is there over the years.

2. You were not her top priority. As you should be able to see now, you still are not.


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> The answer of whether to confront her tomorrow about the EA or not? Or are you referencing something else?


Any and all if it, but, for now is focus on the short term tactics. 

My thought was, you had said something that made me think your hands are tied because of health concerns. Like maybe you didn't feel it was safe, health wise, to take a tough stand improve clarity or R chances, even if that is what you thought you should do.

So I was just propiosing a little thought experiment -- set aside health concerns for now, and let yourself decide what you'd do. 

Then if necessary, figure out a justifiable weight to give to the health concerns.


----------



## TornNBroken

PieceOfSky said:


> Any and all if it, but, for now is focus on the short term tactics.
> 
> My thought was, you had said something that made me think your hands are tied because of health concerns. Like maybe you didn't feel it was safe, health wise, to take a tough stand improve clarity or R chances, even if that is what you thought you should do.
> 
> So I was just propiosing a little thought experiment -- set aside health concerns for now, and let yourself decide what you'd do.
> 
> Then if necessary, figure out a justifiable weight to give to the health concerns.


Oh, if she wasn't pregnant, I would've already had the conversation, for sure. But knowing that she is probably (or possibly, whatever) carrying my child, its very hard for me to carry on with something that could potentially harm him/her.


----------



## TornNBroken

Well, I gotta get some sleep. She's supposed to be coming over in about 8 or 9 hours and I gotta figure out if I'm gonna bring up the EA or not....

G'night all.


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## PieceOfSky

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> She hasn't told you the truth. She has told you some of the truth but I suspect the real truth is much worse.


I promise I won't say this again, if for no other reason that I've gotta get some sleep 

The Peter's cell phone number having a FL area code just seems really strange. Might be nothing. But beenverified.com lus Peter's name and current city will probably be enough to reveal his location over the last few years. Sorry, I don't mean to harp. It just seems like TT exists in all cases, and you need the full verified truth to make the most important decisions of your life.

Get some sleep sometime!


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> Oh, if she wasn't pregnant, I would've already had the conversation, for sure. But knowing that she is probably (or possibly, whatever) carrying my child, its very hard for me to carry on with something that could potentially harm him/her.


Ok, so wait until the results of the paternity test. Don't create any additional stress for her in the meantime. If the baby isn't yours, I am sure she already knows what will happen. If the baby is yours then the follow-up discussion will be easier.

Couple of flaws with that:

1) The whole truth isn't out there; I am sure that is weighing on her considerably and causing a great deal of stress, even if she isn't aware of it.

2) You will be very happy to hear that it is your baby; you can't underestimate how you will feel about that. You may naturally then minimize the need for the whole truth - you may have the urge to take a softer stand.


----------



## Decorum

Torn,
You are in a tough spot.

The new emails revelation and your promise to leave might leverage together in a last final meeting of the minds.

"Honey I now have evidence that you have not been fully honest, if I have to bust you out on these things then we are done, is there anything that you have not told me, held back on, understated, or lied to me about that you would like to tell me today so that we can move forward, or tomorrow I will be calling an attorney".

But Hubby what did you find?

"I have questions about several of the things you have told me, I have specifics about only a few (Love and uncertanity of the baby, their being together forever, # of times they had sex-assume its more), you will just have to come clean on all the rest or wait until we desolve our marriage in court to find out"!

But Hubby How did you find out more?

Torn- "You dont understand, at this point I am asking the questions and you are answering them".

Say no more, and dont tell her about the emails, let her face the uncomfortable silence and talk.

Dont show your hand about the EA, at least to start, if she confesses about one thing guide her to another, i.e. The Florida situation, condoms, # of times, etc

Finally if you think it best, you can say "your emails show that you have had a full on love affair with him, and despite my repeated questions about it you have lied and lied and lied to me.

They show that you considered the possibility of leaving me for him, and even though I seem to have been an easy choice you had to consider it and he was strongly wanting it, also its clear to me form the emails that you had sex more than 4 times-(act as if it was a fact). 

also There was uncertanity between the two of you whose baby was growing in your womb.

and finally you ended it in such a way that he will always be waiting to reconnect, seeking to find out if we have a rough patch, he will always be a threat to our marriage and to the well being of any children we have together.

You really have left me no choice, I cant take such a big risk on you when you have not trusted me enough to be all in".


If she comes clean tell her that in light of these further lies she will have to take a poly about the remaining questions.


I think you can save face this way and leverage this into more info at the same time.

Just a thought,

Take care!


----------



## bfree

Torn,

I'm sorry that you ended up finding out more than you thought. Frankly it is not really surprising to those of us who have been on TAM for a while. Her telling him that she loved him and they would ride off into the sunset together is not all that shocking. Affairs by their very nature are a fantasy and that is part of it. And the fact that you made the same mistake that many others have made by threatening divorce if you found out more is also not surprising. Let this be a lesson to not give any ultimatiums that you don't intend to absolutely stick to.

As to what to do now. I do agree with Decorum that you should give her a chance to come clean about the EA portion of her affair. However unlike others I think you should do this before you get the paternity test results. As has already been stated if you find out the child is yours your feelings are going to change. You are going to be relieved and elated and less likely to impose strict consequences that will aid your reconciliation. I think you should have that conversation now so that the mechanisms are in place for R going forward. If you end up rugsweeping this to an extent you are going to seriously regret it later. I would suggest you start putting together your demands for R now and get your wife to agree to them *on the condition that the child is yours *so that your emotions are not dictating your actions.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> If she had sent it from her private gmail, then yeah, I would be more suspicious. She said she sent it in the morning from work, and* I could see why you wouldn't want that on your work email, even in the trash folder.* But she could still sent it from her gmail....I dunno. I'm looking into getting access to her work email (without her knowledge) cause there were some things in her gmail trash that she probably would've deleted had she been thinking about it.


Many companies archive all emails. Even if the employee deletes the email, it still is stored somewhere for a period of time, could be a few years. Probably a lot of employees don't realize this. Still, once deleted, even if archived, she probably can't get the email back on her own without asking the email administrator for help.


----------



## InlandTXMM

bfree said:


> Torn,
> 
> I'm sorry that you ended up finding out more than you thought. Frankly it is not really surprising to those of us who have been on TAM for a while. Her telling him that she loved him and they would ride off into the sunset together is not all that shocking. Affairs by their very nature are a fantasy and that is part of it. And the fact that you made the same mistake that many others have made by threatening divorce if you found out more is also not surprising. Let this be a lesson to not give any ultimatiums that you don't intend to absolutely stick to.
> 
> As to what to do now. I do agree with Decorum that you should give her a chance to come clean about the EA portion of her affair. However unlike others I think you should do this before you get the paternity test results. As has already been stated if you find out the child is yours your feelings are going to change. You are going to be relieved and elated and less likely to impose strict consequences that will aid your reconciliation. I think you should have that conversation now so that the mechanisms are in place for R going forward. If you end up rugsweeping this to an extent you are going to seriously regret it later. I would suggest you start putting together your demands for R now and get your wife to agree to them *on the condition that the child is yours *so that your emotions are not dictating your actions.


I agree. Finding out Torn's the father doesn't change the lies or her feelings for massage guy. Or why Torn is still being forced to accept the version of reality least harmful to his wife's chances at keeping her marriage and having a good provider for her baby.

I get tired of hearing excuses for WS's declaration of feelings, like they've somehow lost their minds. That's crap. They pursue this activity with other people, for God's sake. They choose to exchange numbers, respond to texts, go for drinks, remove their clothing, get in bed. Then they choose in the aftermath to lie and cover up and hide the fact. Then they choose to do it again. And again. And again. Then, once caught, they almost always choose to protect their a$$es and trickle out information in very carefully, calculated doses. There is no insanity here. There is only a whopping sense of entitlement and hubris.

This wife has already shown she'll sleep with multiple men and can make the entirely logical decision to come crawling back to the man who provides the lifestyle. If she was so horrified about her cheating, instead of being horrified of the thought of having to live on a massage therapist's paycheck, why didn't she come clean after her first affairs 2 years ago? She chose to confess to a friend (who enabled it by keeping silent), and she chose to keep Torn in the dark. Why didn't she confess 2 years ago? Because she knew then she got off on the thrill and she knew she would be doing it again.

They know exactly what they are doing and why.


----------



## Will_Kane

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> True, I thought about that when I realized it was the work email address. I still would have copied you on it. I understand wanting to delete something THAT personal from her work email but then why send it from her work email in the first place if she was concerned about it? *She could have just as easily logged into gmail at work and sent it from there.* I would guess she didn't send other incriminating emails to him through her work email when the affair was on ... for exactly that reason .. so why this one? Suspicious.
> 
> Anyway, not trying to beat this issue to death ... I'm just adding another perspective to try to help.


Some companies block access to certain websites. Some companies have policies of not accessing personal email accounts, like gmail, through work computers - something about being able to bring in a virus or malware without it being filtered through the companies' anti-virus program. Of course, many companies also have a policy of not using work email for personal use, also.

If you want to know why she sent it the way she did, you'd have to ask her and see if her answer made any sense.


----------



## InlandTXMM

PieceOfSky said:


> I promise I won't say this again, if for no other reason that I've gotta get some sleep
> 
> The Peter's cell phone number having a FL area code just seems really strange. Might be nothing. But beenverified.com lus Peter's name and current city will probably be enough to reveal his location over the last few years. Sorry, I don't mean to harp. It just seems like TT exists in all cases, and you need the full verified truth to make the most important decisions of your life.
> 
> Get some sleep sometime!


Just speculating, but I think this guy was part of her affair mess in Florida 2 years ago. They had a fling and the EA started then. He might have travelled to see her during that 2 years, the EA escalated to plans to be together, he moved to Denver to prepare for this, (probably just did a company relocation), and she conveniently picks him up as her massage guy.

That scene is a lot more likely than this guy just fell so hard in 8 weeks after 3 or 4 sexual flings that he was willing to disrupt his life's plans to marry his mistress and raise a kid that isn't his.


----------



## JCD

I thought this Friday was a bit quick for a DNA test...

Here is my off the cuff attitude: Do NOT tell her about the EA. Why? Because you are not mentally in a place where you will dump her. You know it, I know it. It isn't being a doormat, it's being a dad. This is not being faithful to the faithless, it's being faithful to an innocent. So you need to get that fact sorted out FIRST.

But there is also the Golden Rule of Parenting: *If you set a boundary, you need to (officially) hold to the boundary*.

So you told her if she told a lie, you'd kick her ass out. Well...she told a lie...but she thinks she got away with it. So at this point you don't look weak, you look misled. If you tell her you know she lied but you still don't immediately dump her, you look weak (or in love...there is no hard line between the two) So there is no hurry to call her on this until you have the paternity test.

Take this time to mull. Do not excoriate her when she visits. I would simply go to another room and not engage her at all because your feelings are all over the place. She wants to talk, have her get a therapist or a dog. Right now, you have some deep dark thinking to do. She will feel the tension and the mood shift. Let her. Let her be scared. Let her worry. Let her think that her whole life is unraveling.

Because it might be. You never appreciate anythings as much as when it's gone...though watching it roll away is probably a close second.

Part Two

Okay...I was in an EA. I was emotionally disconnected with my wife. STRONGLY emotionally disconnected. It took me three years to contemplate divorce , because I used to feel like you did about D: it was something stupid faithless people did. Not 'good' people.

Well, I've changed my mind. BOTH people in the marriage have to be 'good' people...whatever that is. And being in a horrible relationship is at least as bad for the children as stress to a pregnant woman. So you need to consider that very carefully.

But the point is, when I was in the EA, I was disconnected...and it took me *8 months* to reconnect with my wife. BTW, I wasn't going off with another woman. I was just no longer in love with my wife...which was just as bad.

So her assertions of 'love' for you make me skeptical. I've been there. She did...she anticpates doing so again...but right now, she's scared and adrift, not in love. Or not very strongly. She's using playing on YOUR love, not hers. This isn't a terminal condition, but it's something to be aware of. 

Now, she's only had 2 months, so she probably still has SOME feelings for you...but they sure weren't what they were before. I never had sex with her either, which strengthens the bond.

Now, I am going to take a contrarian stance here. I believe that if it wasn't 4 times, it wasn't too much more. It was only two months. She had to batter her conscience into submission, fight her religious training, her smouldering vestiges of love for you, her self respect etc. So the back and forth is plausible to me. That isn't much of a consolation.

The EA

So...she loves him...sort of.

Here are a few options

1) Everything she said to him was true. She was moonstruck and wanted to be with him, have his baby and run off to the seedy massage parlor life...until her greed kicked in. Not much help there. But does it sound plausible? "Hi mom! I'm dumping that stupid doctor guy. Peter is doing *5 massages a day!* Plus he gave me a frequent user coupon so I get one free every 5 sessions."


2) She felt something for him (they _only_ had two months) so since this was a 'safe' relationship, she decided to play the teenage girl again, doing the sweet nothings, the ILUs, etc to try to connect to her youth and innocence. Sure, she loved him some (you always have feelings for the guy you are boffing) but when all of a sudden he's asking where she works...where she lives...the full consequences hit her between the eyes and she realized A) she needed to start to act like a grown woman and B) she did the math and couldn't get the numbers to be satisfying so she needed to tell you.

3) She was lying to him too. Why should he be any different?

But...you can't know which is the truth. Certainly you can't count on her to fess up. She's lied, minimized and avoided as much as she could.

If she recalls what her emails sounded like, she might already think that this is her Green Mile when she visits in the morning.

Now...marriages can live in this sort of uncertainty. They can even be good marriages. Not wonderful fantasy marriages where both people are head over heels every minute of every day which we all seem to 'deserve'...but I've never actually seen one like this.

The question you need to answer is can YOU live with that uncertainty.

It will take time for you to reconnect to the wife and it will take DAILY communications.

Consequences

So...it's next Friday, the baby is yours and you are stuck with a woman who spread for an absolute stranger of a different faith who was able to woo her in 2 months to the point of (potentially) wanting to run off with him (I am not sure I buy it...because if she was that much in love, she'd be gone. We've seen it before)

What do you do?

I would read the emails to her. Word for word with inflections and raised eyebrows to make it sound exactly as stupid and pitiful as it actually is. I'd repeat the most hurtful passages to her " I' love svcking your c0ck' Really? Cause you never seemed that enthusiastic to me..." Then I'd ask her if she had any more revelations for me.

Then I'd demand that she read them out loud to her mother. Maybe yours too.

She needs to know exactly how miserable she sounds. She doesn't have to remain that person, but she needs to know loud and clear exactly where she is RIGHT NOW.

Peter needs to be a vomit inducing trigger in her life because this POS is just WAITING for a high quality woman like that to be cut lose. He will always want. You don't want to be back here in 10 years crying about who she met for lunch by accident.

Just my opinion and maybe that would be too hurtful and damaging to the marriage. But I'd at least read them to her.


----------



## JCD

InlandTXMM said:


> Just speculating, but I think this guy was part of her affair mess in Florida 2 years ago. They had a fling and the EA started then. He might have travelled to see her during that 2 years, the EA escalated to plans to be together, he moved to Denver and she conveniently picks him up as her massage guy.
> 
> That scene is a lot more likely than this guy just fell so hard in 8 weeks after 3 or 4 sexual flings that he was willing to disrupt his life's plans to marry his mistress and raise a kid that isn't his.


And you base that on nothing but an area code. Good work!


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Will_Kane said:


> Some companies block access to certain websites. Some companies have policies of not accessing personal email accounts, like gmail, through work computers - something about being able to bring in a virus or malware without it being filtered through the companies' anti-virus program. Of course, many companies also have a policy of not using work email for personal use, also.
> 
> If you want to know why she sent it the way she did, you'd have to ask her and see if her answer made any sense.


Well, I'm in IT so yeah ... however, I have seen few companies block sites like gmail or other common web email sites.

I'm assuming she also has access where she is to a laptop/pc ... if it was me, that sort of thing would have been sent from there. 

Doesn't matter though; I think we have firmly established she is not telling the truth.


----------



## InlandTXMM

JCD said:


> And you base that on nothing but an area code. Good work!


No, because she's admitted that 2 years ago she was sleeping with other men in Florida. Current guy has a Florida area code, and current guy is WAY too attached for 2 months of very sporadic sex, and wife is attached enough in the same 2 months to declare her love for him.

It's a guess using the evidence available.

When the WS doesn't give you all the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle, you have to work with the evidence you have. Why in the world should he take her word on anything right now?


----------



## Chaparral

Well, ................the bad news, she doesn't know whose kid it is for sure. The good news..................not knowing whose kid it is she absolutely hopes it is yours and she wants to be with you.

Otherwise, this is just a typical affair following the run of the mill cheaters script. So why is everyone throwing her under the bus. Far worse than this have reconciled.

Yes if it were me and the paternity test confirmed I was not the father, addios amiga, bon voyage etc.

No, if its my child, I would try to move heaven and earth before I let some low life masseuse raise my flesh and blood. I expect he is allready rubbing out a few elsewhere. YOU HAVE HAD THE STONES TO OUT HIM TO HIS EMPLOYER, RIGHT? Otherwise maybe you should not raise your child.

Lets see, trickle truth according to script, they all do that, lied about how many times, probably, they all do that, he didn't make her come, yep, they all say that, he wsn't that good, ditto. They weren't in love, it was just sex, boriiiiiing. She lied, dittos again, she has so much guilt she confesses to an affair, whaaaaaaaat?????
Ding, ding,ding,ding,ding,ding...................totally out of the cheaters script. She has a concious and she is a Christian (?).

Yes, I would try to keep her and my child as long as she goes to therapy and is COMPLETELY TRANSPARENT with text/phone/car/gps tracking and no smart phone.

For now give her hope until the dna results come in. (Anyone remember the poster's name that the dna said he wasn't the dad and he retested and it said he was?) You want a healthy baby. If it comes back his kid, I would politely decline raising his kid.

One other thing, I would learn how to give "soothing" oil massages.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> *I've asked her in multiple different ways if she was emotionally attached to any of these guys, and she's always denied it. She said that she thinks this peter guy likes her a lot, but that's the extent of it.*
> 
> *HOWEVER, through the emails I found, this guy is head over heels in love with her, even offering to raise MY KID, if it turns out to be mine. He has it BAD for her. And sadly, she talks about loving him and the deep connection they have. How she feels safe and incredibly happy whenever they are together.*
> 
> *in these emails she talks about this being the hardest decision and how awful she feels but she wants to make things work with me. *
> 
> According to these emails, she has truly left him. *He says he's crushed, but is a big boy and he'll get over it, but that he'll always be there for her. She feels terrible for making him so sad, but says something about its not just about the two of them, that she'd be turning her whole world upside down...*
> 
> So here's where I'm at...
> 
> Not only do I have to add an EA to the pile of **** that I'd have to get over in order to R. But now I have to wonder if she would PREFER to be with him, but she's just scared of all the repercussions (i.e. family and friends shame, losing my financial support, the baby, etc.). So if this baby is mine, and she wants to stay together (which she does) am I always gonna be wondering if SHE is now SETTLING for me?! Here I had been contemplating if I could settle for HER in order to salvage something I had worked on for so long and to provide a solid family for my future kid.
> 
> ALSO, *where I had been thinking that she had come 100% clean with all the admissions she had been making and the willingness to answer any question, now I know she's been lying about the emotional involvement this whole time. *
> 
> ****ing sucks, and I don't know if that's a deal breaker now.
> 
> *She still tells me there's no way its not my kid, but the way he phrased his email "...I don't care that you are pregnant, my child, his child, it doesn't matter, I am so in love with you that I will help raise another man's child..." I'm still very skeptical.*
> 
> Guess we'll see next week.
> 
> She's planning on stopping by tomorrow to grab some laundry and toiletries and *I'm currently debating whether to hang around and confront her about the emails, or wait to do it at another time.*
> 
> Oh, and the other thing *she talked about was how him being a JW would've been an issue down the road, even though he didn't think it would be.* That's another aspect that I haven't brought up yet...and I apologize if there are any JWs reading this, but we've always thought JWs were CRAZY. We are both traditional Christians and we had some friends that turned out to be JWs and *we would always make light of their ridiculous beliefs with it being a sin to vote or celebrate a birthday. Anyways, I just wonder if that was a big factor in this as well. If he had been just a 'regular' Christian, would she have been willing to leave me? She's also denied repeatedly ever seriously considering leaving me for him, but c'mon, what is she gonna tell me.*
> 
> She's said a handful of things that I think she would say no matter what:
> 
> "I never considered leaving you"
> "I never came with any of them"
> "I could barely even feel them compared to you"
> "I know I was cheating 'down' and I don't know why I would do that"
> 
> I know if the truth was the opposite of any of those, I'd still get those statements regardless...


I think you are doing remarkably well. You are in a good spot mentally - you show that you completely understand the situation and you are addressing all of the issues that most betrayed husbands want to rugsweep and ignore.

Never put off dealing with these issues. Set up a meeting with her and talk to her face to face, confront her with the emails, print them out. She knows you have access to her email account, so there is no sense in hiding how you know about them. Face to face you can see her body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, pauses, hesitations, and hear her real words the way she really feels about them, not read some message or text that she has had time to write, re-write and edit for the greatest manipulative impact.

Do not warn her ahead of time WHAT you want to talk about, let her know you need about an hour to talk so she can't say she has to run somewhere and promised someone she's meet them somewhere else and skip out and give herself time to prepare answers.

Ask her directly WHY she has been LYING to you? Let her do most of the talking. Be as unemotional as you can, when she answers you, even if you have a question, do not interrupt her, and always pause for a full five seconds after she finishes an answer before you ask another question.

Be very direct about the fact that it is obvious that she was considering leaving you for him and that only the shame of telling friends and the JW thing are standing in her way. Tell her that if she wants you in her life, she has to start telling the truth.

It is not all bad news, though. If she REALLY felt that this guy was the love of her life, she WOULD have left you for him no matter what. What I'm saying is, she might not love you as much as him, but she doesn't look at him as her soul mate.

Don't put this off until after the paternity results. Better to get started on this now, then you can scuttle it if the child is not yours. If the child is yours, you can take some time to decide what you want to do.


----------



## Chaparral

JCD said:


> And you base that on nothing but an area code. Good work!


You have to admit the Fla connection is a huge coincidence.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> The answer of whether to confront her tomorrow about the EA or not? Or are you referencing something else?


CONFRONT TODAY. No reason to wait.


----------



## SomedayDig

People. Seriously...stop the stupid, idiotic and unfounded innuendo. It serves nothing. If you wanna be pissed off cuz Torn is confused and in a rough place - let's not forget that he JUST found out about this affair - then be pissed, but don't lash out at him because of your own history when he doesn't "follow" your advice.

Constantly peppering him with what he "should" do, doesn't help either because everyone is telling him something just a little different. 

If anyone wants to call me a doormat or whatever because I chose reconciliation over divorce when I discovered Regret's affair, then fine. I know myself. I live my life. No one has any f'ng clue what goes on in my house, Torn's house or anyone else on this board. Stop playing this as if you're sitting in his living room experiencing this with him. You're not.

Torn, you'll have the paternity test next Friday. My suggestion...log out of TAM and come back next Saturday if you get overloaded with all the stuff. There is ZERO need to make any life decision today, tomorrow or the next day. That includes the whole "file cuz you can always withdraw it" advice.


EDIT to add...this post is not directed toward the last few posts that happened while I ate breakfast and took my time writing! LOL


----------



## Chaparral

*HOWEVER, through the emails I found, this guy is head over heels in love with her, even offering to raise MY KID, if it turns out to be mine. He has it BAD for her. And sadly, she talks about loving him and the deep connection they have. How she feels safe and incredibly happy whenever they are together. 

in these emails she talks about this being the hardest decision and how awful she feels but she wants to make things work with me. 

According to these emails, she has truly left him. He says he's crushed, but is a big boy and he'll get over it, but that he'll always be there for her. She feels terrible for making him so sad, but says something about its not just about the two of them, that she'd be turning her whole world upside down...*

This reeks of two people trying to convince the other how torn up they will be without each other. Exit stage left It may hvae been an 
EA but I think they were blowing smoke up each others butt. He sure doesn't sound like it is going to take to long to get over it, he's done this a lot. I'm guessing he already has a few linbed up on his table. (OUT HIM!) She is thinking about a life with him as , no way Jose.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> I found, this guy is head over heels in love with her, even offering to raise MY KID, if it turns out to be mine. He has it BAD for her. And sadly, she talks about loving him and the deep connection they have. How she feels safe and incredibly happy whenever they are together.


As you can see, this story is starting to make no sense. She had sex with him four times in two months, but she talks about loving him and he talks about raising your child just to be with her?

There are pieces missing from this puzzle.

You are being lied to about the length and nature of this affair.

If a story doesn't make sense, it probably is a lie. If a story is unbelievable, don't believe it.


----------



## Chaparral

Will_Kane said:


> As you can see, this story is starting to make no sense. She had sex with him four times in two months, but she talks about loving him and he talks about raising your child just to be with her?
> 
> There are pieces missing from this puzzle.
> 
> You are being lied to about the length and nature of this affair.
> 
> If a story doesn't make sense, it probably is a lie. If a story is unbelievable, don't believe it.


I usually am 100% behind Will, probably the best poster on this board. The thing is, believing anything a player says is dangerous. He loves her this week, next week he has another woman on his table and he loves her twice as much and yoohoo she aint pregnant! He would tell her anything and did to keep her around for awhile. Your wifes big problem is she is gullible.

Print this off and give it to her when you see her:

*Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
***********************************************

My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.
findingmyway is offline Forward Message*


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> My thinking is this...
> 
> Once I find out if the kid is mine or not, I need to make a decision. If I'm gonna try and R, I need to get her back in the house and start taking care of her and the baby. She's been telling me how she hasn't been able to eat well, is so stressed and a nervous wreck knowing she might lose me, it can't be good for the baby. So if I'm going to work things out, I need to make that decision this week.
> 
> *I told her last week that if I found out she was lying about anything from here on out that I'd be gone. So what am I supposed to do if I tell her I know she's been lying tomorrow?* I'm not gonna make a decision to stay before I find out the paternity results, so if I say 'gotcha!' tomorrow and then just send her on her way, I'm worried about how she's gonna physically gonna handle that, if she assumes its over. I know people have said that's a silly worry, but I don't think it is. There's been plenty of studies to show that stress is bad for a baby/pregnant mom. And what if she asks me if its over because I caught her lying? I still don't feel ready to make a decision without the baby info and without some more time to process the whole EA.


Don't give any more ultimatums you are not willing to stick by. First of all, EVERY cheater does what your wife is doing. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

Confront today. Face to face. If all of this communication with her has been by the written word, you are making a huge mistake. She has time to edit and re-write for maximum manipulative effect. Face to fave over the computer or even a voice call is better than written messages between you.

Ignore the previous ultimatum for the time being. Tell her it looks like she's been lying, and ask for her explanation, tell her you have not made any decision and will not make any decision until you are ready. Tell her the more lies she tells, the less likely you will decide to stay with her. Tell her you think the lies have made it less likely you will choose to stay and work on the marriage with her. Don't give her a hard ultimatum about ending it if she tells another lie unless you are wllling to stick to it.

Is confronting her after you find out the baby is yours going to be any better for the baby? Or are you planning on rugsweeping her lies completely? Can you make a decision to reconcile WITHOUT confronting her on the lies? If you decide NOT to try to reconcile with her, are you going to tell her that while she is pregnant?

Sorry, but she is pregnant and in a stressful situation. There is nothing either of you can do to avoid it other than face the situation head on. She can help reduce the stress by TELLING THE TRUTH.

LYING IS STRESSFUL. That's how polygraphs work. Tell her if she wants to help the health of the baby, she should start telling the truth.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, this is troubling me. I know I can't cave in and she has to know that the consequences are real if she's ever gonna change, but what now then. Do I need to divorce her now to show her I'm serious? No, I'm not ready for that. I don't know what to do.


Every cheater minimizes and trickle-truths. Have never seen one that doesn't.

Just ignore your ultimatum for the time being and don't make any more ultimatums. Tell her that you are still deciding and that every lie makes you want to reconcile less and less.

Many betrayed husbands say that the lying afterwards was worse than the affair itself. You are now finding that out first-hand.

Tell her that her lies are worse than the affair. You might be able to get over the affair, you might NOT be able to get over the lies. Tell her she is trickle-truthing. Explain it to her and how damaging it is.

If she is posting on other forums as you've said, she already knows this.

*Do you know that she is not reading your posts here?*


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> So is that it then? Is that the point of no return? Its one thing to try and forgive and R with someone who did something stupid physically and now regrets it, but its another to try and forgive someone for falling in love with someone else, but who wants to now be with me because "logically" I'd be the better husband.


The affair was probably not true love. She did not look at him as her "soul mate" or she really would have left you for him. There are other threads here where the cheater has done this, gone to a real POS loser over a great husband.

Your wife did weigh you against the other man and she chose you. Could it be that she doesn't really love either of you, but you are just the better provider? Could be.

From what you've posted about your wife, this much I know:

1. Pieces are missing from this puzzle. The deep emotional attachment on both sides over two months doesn't make a lot of sense based on what your wife has told you.

2. Your wife is what I would call "broken" or "damaged" inside. She has some serious issues regarding needing validation from men, seeking attention, whatever - I don't know what her problem is, but it is obvious she has one. It's not about you or how you treat her, it is something missing or broken inside her.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> She told him she loved him. That being with him she realized how much she 'missed having butterflies'.....(those fvcking butterflies again). She missed being "madly in love, feeling giddy over silly things like text messages, and all those feelings you give me so easily. When I'm with you I am so incredibly happy. I feel safe. I feel complete. I agree with you that we have a deep connection that is hard to find."
> 
> So yeah, its sounds like she thinks she's in love. *To me, it sounds like the damn infatuation phase* that she always told me she missed with us. *She went on in her letters to him to say that she thinks down the road they wouldn't feel the same, once that newness wore off. So I think she kinda realizes that it is infatuation maybe? *I don't know what to believe she truly felt, but those are some damn strong words from her.


Yes, she is "in love" with being "in love." Needs the "butterflies." Realizes that the "butterflies" don't last more than three years, usually a lot less than that. This last is a good thing. But can she get over seeking "butterflies" in the future?


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> That's what I wonder, is if she was just caught up in this fantasy and not having "true feelings" like you mention. I get why it would be exciting. If there was a good looking woman who would give me massages, compliment me, tell me she was so in love with me, let me fvck her, and never fight or argue or have any of the downsides of a real relationship, I might "love" that too. I would never do it, but if I was in that fantasy, I can't imagine truly developing love. Love, to me, comes from going through the good times AND the bad times with someone, coming out on the other side and deciding there's no other person you would've rather spent ALL of those moments with, good or bad.


Butterflies are all about fantasy land. Thinking you MAY have found the perfect person. That's why butterflies and infatuation are strongly associated with "puppy" love, young love, teenage love. By the time we reach adulthood, most of us realize that the "butterflies" will not last beyond a certain point with anyone.

That said, women in general are different than men. They have different hormones, they are socialized differently, whatever it is, they tend to be more emotional and men tend to be more pragmatic. "Butterflies" tend to be more important to women, especially younger women, they tend to put a lot more importance on having that "butterfly" feeling with a man than other considerations that might be more important to a man, like shared values.

The more you post, it is starting to seem like your wife is a teenager stuck in an adult's body.


----------



## Will_Kane

Decorum said:


> Torn,
> You are in a tough spot.
> 
> The new emails revelation and your promise to leave might leverage together in a last final meeting of the minds.
> 
> "Honey I now have evidence that you have not been fully honest, if I have to bust you out on these things then we are done, is there anything that you have not told me, held back on, understated, or lied to me about that you would like to tell me today so that we can move forward, or tomorrow I will be calling an attorney".
> 
> But Hubby what did you find?
> 
> "I have questions about several of the things you have told me, I have specifics about only a few (Love and uncertanity of the baby, their being together forever, # of times they had sex-assume its more), you will just have to come clean on all the rest or wait until we desolve our marriage in court to find out"!
> 
> But Hubby How did you find out more?
> 
> Torn- "You dont understand, at this point I am asking the questions and you are answering them".
> 
> Say no more, and dont tell her about the emails, let her face the uncomfortable silence and talk.
> 
> Dont show your hand about the EA, at least to start, if she confesses about one thing guide her to another, i.e. The Florida situation, condoms, # of times, etc
> 
> Finally if you think it best, you can say "your emails show that you have had a full on love affair with him, and despite my repeated questions about it you have lied and lied and lied to me.
> 
> They show that you considered the possibility of leaving me for him, and even though I seem to have been an easy choice you had to consider it and he was strongly wanting it, also its clear to me form the emails that you had sex more than 4 times-(act as if it was a fact).
> 
> also There was uncertanity between the two of you whose baby was growing in your womb.
> 
> and finally you ended it in such a way that he will always be waiting to reconnect, seeking to find out if we have a rough patch, he will always be a threat to our marriage and to the well being of any children we have together.
> 
> You really have left me no choice, I cant take such a big risk on you when you have not trusted me enough to be all in".
> 
> 
> If she comes clean tell her that in light of these further lies she will have to take a poly about the remaining questions.
> 
> 
> I think you can save face this way and leverage this into more info at the same time.
> 
> Just a thought,
> 
> Take care!


Good plan.


----------



## JCD

Here is the deal: it's like opening a bottle of tylenol. Once you rip open that seal on the top, it's gone. You have no idea what will be put into the bottle.

She's broken the vows of marriage once...and it got easier to do again.

The butterfly thing troubles me. Here are a few questions you both need to answer.

Can you keep watch over her for the rest of the marriage. Not 'GPS up the rectum' style, but keeping an eye on her friends, her social patterns, her 'attitude' etc?

Can she submit with love and acceptance that you will be asking questions constantly for...well...forever? Can she accept that she must be 'beyond reproach' from here on in?

Can you accept not 'knowing'? Because except for the DNA, you will never know. Sucks but it's true.

Can she take not being friends with any more men? Period? Can she 'let the butterflies go'? She needs to honestly think about this.

She might not be able to abide by these restrictions. You might not be able to. Resentments might grow. Knowing the future is hard, but knowing yourself isn't. Both of you need to think about this.


----------



## just got it 55

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Ok, so wait until the results of the paternity test. Don't create any additional stress for her in the meantime. If the baby isn't yours, I am sure she already knows what will happen. If the baby is yours then the follow-up discussion will be easier.
> 
> Couple of flaws with that:
> 
> 1) The whole truth isn't out there; I am sure that is weighing on her considerably and causing a great deal of stress, even if she isn't aware of it.
> 
> 2) You will be very happy to hear that it is your baby; you can't underestimate how you will feel about that. You may naturally then minimize the need for the whole truth - you may have the urge to take a softer stand.


Torn "The truth will always be "

Get some sleep 
Get the truth
Use your logic to get the whole truth
Make no decissions until you do

If you choose to leave no matter what the paternity shows this child will get the best father you can be if you are a man and true to yourself.None of us as humans can move beyond feeling safe & secure al all levels

The Truth Will Give You That


----------



## InlandTXMM

chapparal said:


> I usually am 100% behind Will, probably the best poster on this board. The thing is, believing anything a player says is dangerous. He loves her this week, next week he has another woman on his table and he loves her twice as much and yoohoo she aint pregnant! He would tell her anything and did to keep her around for awhile. Your wifes big problem is she is gullible.
> 
> Print this off and give it to her when you see her:
> 
> *Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
> ***********************************************
> 
> My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.
> 
> For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.
> 
> I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
> 1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
> 2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
> 3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.
> 
> The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.
> 
> If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.
> 
> Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.
> 
> I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.
> 
> I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.
> 
> As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.
> 
> The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.
> 
> I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.
> 
> 
> I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.
> 
> I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.
> 
> It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.
> 
> Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.
> 
> It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.
> findingmyway is offline Forward Message*


Nowhere in here do I see a man eager to move in with her and raise her child. This guy is deeply in love with her. That takes more than a few nights in the sack.


----------



## larry.gray

chapparal said:


> You have to admit the Fla connection is a huge coincidence.


:iagree:

I was thinking the same thing myself when he said the number was from Florida.


----------



## Chaparral

InlandTXMM said:


> Nowhere in here do I see a man eager to move in with her and raise her child. This guy is deeply in love with her. That takes more than a few nights in the sack.


He's a player. His job is better suited to being a player than any job I have ever heard of. He may have many women he is in love with. Do not believe a cheater when they say they are in love. You don't believe anything else they say. One reason they like to think/believe they are in love is because it assuages the tremendous guilt of betraying someone they really love just so their tingly parts get a little new attention/excitement.

My guess is this guy is as jaded as any other player and will never know true love. He is just another sex addict. There is a reason he chose his profession, and it wasn't to help all mankind. One of my best friends was a player. He married had one child, butt dialed his wife and died alone from cancer. The odd thing was, it was so obvious, everyone thought she knew and accepted it, even before they were wed. She didn't.


----------



## larry.gray

I'm sure she's convinced herself the child is yours. That's common in women who realize who's the better man to raise the child. 

There is a good chance she set up a sperm race here. The real worry if it turns out that your sperm won this race is that she's going to do it again. What do you do if you turn out to be the dad, and then find out child #2 _isn't_ yours?

I'd suggest that if you do R, consider divorcing her, then remarry with a pre-nup that lets you walk away and keep everything.


----------



## Shaggy

Torn,

Do you think your wife is intentionally downplaying her relationship with Peter to

1. Protect it? Because if you knew too much of the details you could go after Peter beter or person others?

2. To hide just full extent because you would even more certainly be gone?

Because he just does not add up. It's only been 2 months and a couple of times of sex, yet
1. He wants to raise your kid?
2. He is in deep love with her, yet he doesn't seem phased that she had sex with you and gig knocked up, while being so deeply in love?
3. She and he hooked up right after her knowing she's pregnant. 

That and his number being from FL.

Her having sex with him, them coming home to confess also really doesn't add up at all. She's cheated a lot, and has has a lot of experience hiding it. So why confess? Why not lie, and have the kid while continuing to see Peter? You know it's not because she suddenly felt a bond with you because of the baby. If that was it she wouldn't be having sex either him right after the positive test.

My advice is to schedule a polygraph for her for Mondsy or Tuesday and flat out ask her.

Right now you are seeking answers from materials that have already been thoroughly cleansed.


----------



## InlandTXMM

chapparal said:


> He's a player. His job is better suited to being a player than any job I have ever heard of. He may have many women he is in love with. Do not believe a cheater when they say they are in love. You don't believe anything else they say. One reason they like to think/believe they are in love is because it assuages the tremendous guilt of betraying someone they really love just so their tingly parts get a little new attention/excitement.
> 
> My guess is this guy is as jaded as any other player and will never know true love. He is just another sex addict. There is a reason he chose his profession, and it wasn't to help all mankind. One of my best friends was a player.


..except here's the problem: HE'S not cheating. She is. Yes I'm sure he gets his hands on a lot of women, married or not, but I see no reason to make an offer to take her and a child on board if all he was after was sex, and if he moved recently to Denver to be closer to her, then all bets are off.

I think a player's advice would be to tell her to keep it secret and let Torn raise the baby none the wiser. There is no reason for him to make an offer like he did if they were only in it for the sex.

I think he made a sincere offer, and Mrs. Torn pulled out a little calculator and said, "Oh crap. No way. Plus this guy will likely cheat on me and Torn never would. Yep. I'm taking Door #1."

Right now Torn is laying aside his emotions and doing "the responsible thing" for the sake of the baby. Why should we think Mrs. Torn is doing anything different?


----------



## JCD

Shaggy said:


> Torn,
> 
> Do you think your wife is intentionally downplaying her relationship with Peter to
> 
> 1. Protect it? Because if you knew too much of the details you could go after Peter beter or person others?
> 
> 2. To hide just full extent because you would even more certainly be gone?
> 
> Because he just does not add up. It's only been 2 months and a couple of times of sex, yet
> 1. He wants to raise your kid?
> 2. He is in deep love with her, yet he doesn't seem phased that she had sex with you and gig knocked up, while being so deeply in love?
> 3. She and he hooked up right after her knowing she's pregnant.
> 
> That and his number being from FL.
> 
> Her having sex with him, them coming home to confess also really doesn't add up at all. She's cheated a lot, and has has a lot of experience hiding it. So why confess? Why not lie, and have the kid while continuing to see Peter? You know it's not because she suddenly felt a bond with you because of the baby. If that was it she wouldn't be having sex either him right after the positive test.
> 
> My advice is to schedule a polygraph for her for Mondsy or Tuesday and flat out ask her.
> 
> Right now you are seeking answers from materials that have already been thoroughly cleansed.




You have no idea if she 'cheated a lot'. That is your guess. It remains your guess. You can talk about experience with cheaters here, but MOST of the women I've read about here have ONE partner at a time...and most of them don't just jump from man to man. They need to find a connection.

What are the chances a MASSAGE THERAPIST for god's sakes was in Florida, MOVED to COLORADO for the love of God because two years ago he happened to maybe hook up with this one lady for a ONS. Two years is a long time to carry a torch even for very fine poon.

Oh...well if we continue the counterfactual attitude that she's been ****ting around since she said 'I do' (that limo driver was SO CUTE), I GUESS it makes a bit of sense. Because men who are massage therapists who live in Florida, land of the bikini and the tourists with poor boundaries are RARING to move to COLORADO, land of parkas and men with guns. Sure...I can buy that...

OR...Spokeo made a mistake. What does Occam's Razor suggest?

He might have fallen hard for her....or he might be a lying player. The idea he's following her around is unlikely because hubby hasn't had an unexplained car accident yet.

Of course he doesn't want her preggers. It might be his. She might get guilty. She gets a belly. How can he keep hitting it if she's vomiting and guilty?

Men do fall in love stupidly. Las Vegas has an entire matrimonial industry predicated on that fact. So 2 months is nothing...but I think they are both lying at least a little to each other.

I doubt he'd raise the baby. I think that something distinguishing was out there. Maybe Torn is blonde, she is blonde, but Peter is brunette. So she better come clean. Or he WAS getting too clingy...and she is backing out.

It makes as much sense and has as much factual support as the idea that some guy has been pronging her from Florida for 2 years running.


----------



## InlandTXMM

Last lovers - Florida
Current lover - Florida phone number

You work with what you've got.

Torn, how many times she she travelled for work in the last 2 years?


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> You have no idea if she 'cheated a lot'. That is your guess. It remains your guess. You can talk about experience with cheaters here, but MOST of the women I've read about here have ONE partner at a time...and most of them don't just jump from man to man. They need to find a connection.
> 
> What are the chances a MASSAGE THERAPIST for god's sakes was in Florida, MOVED to COLORADO for the love of God because two years ago he happened to maybe hook up with this one lady for a ONS. Two years is a long time to carry a torch even for very fine poon.
> 
> Oh...well if we continue the counterfactual attitude that she's been ****ting around since she said 'I do' (that limo driver was SO CUTE), I GUESS it makes a bit of sense. Because men who are massage therapists who live in Florida, land of the bikini and the tourists with poor boundaries are RARING to move to COLORADO, land of parkas and men with guns. Sure...I can buy that...
> 
> OR...Spokeo made a mistake. What does Occam's Razor suggest?
> 
> He might have fallen hard for her....or he might be a lying player. The idea he's following her around is unlikely because hubby hasn't had an unexplained car accident yet.
> 
> Of course he doesn't want her preggers. It might be his. She might get guilty. She gets a belly. How can he keep hitting it if she's vomiting and guilty?
> 
> Men do fall in love stupidly. Las Vegas has an entire matrimonial industry predicated on that fact. So 2 months is nothing...but I think they are both lying at least a little to each other.
> 
> I doubt he'd raise the baby. I think that something distinguishing was out there. Maybe Torn is blonde, she is blonde, but Peter is brunette. So she better come clean. Or he WAS getting too clingy...and she is backing out.
> 
> It makes as much sense and has as much factual support as the idea that some guy has been pronging her from Florida for 2 years running.


JCD,

With this one post you have made as many assumptions from your perspective as the other posters you seem to be contradicting. The point is that the OP most likely does NOT have the entire story. He has fragments that will eventually gnaw at his mind and cause doubts in the future if they reconcile. The others here are simply pointing out these fragments in her story and other so called coincidences that might eventually come back to threaten their R.

Is it strange that she admitted she cheated in Florida and her current lover has a Florida area code? Yes. Is it plausible that her lover from two years ago moved to Colorado to pursue her? No. Is it possible? YES. And that is why it must be explored to determine if there is indeed something to be concerned about. This is just one example of issues that have to be exposed in order for a lasting R to take place.

Remember the thread where something was going on between the OP's wife and her personal trainer. Most told him it was an affair and to look further. A couple of posters counseled that it was all a coincidence. Guess which posters were correct? I truly hope in Torn's case that it is a coincidence. But when trust is broken everything needs to be questioned so there are no more skeletons in the closet to threaten the future of the marriage. What if you are wrong and it turns out this guy did in fact move from Florida to Colorado and in two or three years he comes back into their lives? At that point do you honestly believe Torn could continue in the marriage after forgiving so much? Not likely. So this all has to be brought out now and dealt with so there are no unpleasant surprises on the horizon.


----------



## aug

Will_Kane said:


> 2. Your wife is what I would call "broken" or "damaged" inside. She has some serious issues regarding needing validation from men, seeking attention, whatever - I don't know what her problem is, but it is obvious she has one. It's not about you or how you treat her, it is something missing or broken inside her.


If that's what it is, then she'll need decades for her to be fixed. First, she'll have to acknowledge she has this problem. Second, she'l need massive internal willpower to fight her impulse every day. Third, she'll need to maintain her intention to change every day.

Thus far, she has shown an incapability to do so.


----------



## aug

Will_Kane said:


> Butterflies are all about fantasy land. Thinking you MAY have found the perfect person. That's why butterflies and infatuation are strongly associated with "puppy" love, young love, teenage love. By the time we reach adulthood, most of us realize that the "butterflies" will not last beyond a certain point with anyone.
> 
> That said, women in general are different than men. They have different hormones, they are socialized differently, whatever it is, they tend to be more emotional and men tend to be more pragmatic. "Butterflies" tend to be more important to women, especially younger women, they tend to put a lot more importance on having that "butterfly" feeling with a man than other considerations that might be more important to a man, like shared values.
> 
> The more you post, it is starting to seem like your wife is a teenager stuck in an adult's body.



"Butterflies" is just her marketing term for her lust and uncontrolled impulse.


----------



## TornNBroken

Just ate my breakfast and read through all the new posts. Thank you guys for caring so much and for all of your input. I DO think I'm gonna talk with her when she shows up soon.

But listen, I appreciate your concern, but you all need to stop worrying about FL. His FL number is from a city that was over 5 hours away from where we lived in FL. He might as well been in Atlanta or New Orleans. I agree there's always a possibility of something, but I don't think its worth stressing over. I've gotten his addresses for the last 15 years or so, and he supposedly moved out here BEFORE we did. So....yeah.


----------



## bfree

TornNBroken said:


> Just ate my breakfast and read through all the new posts. Thank you guys for caring so much and for all of your input. I DO think I'm gonna talk with her when she shows up soon.
> 
> But listen, I appreciate your concern, but you all need to stop worrying about FL. His FL number is from a city that was over 5 hours away from where we lived in FL. He might as well been in Atlanta or New Orleans. I agree there's always a possibility of something, but I don't think its worth stressing over. I've gotten his addresses for the last 15 years or so, and he supposedly moved out here BEFORE we did. So....yeah.


Good. I think you should talk about it and get everything out in the open. There should be no secrets anymore. I'm glad the Florida issue is not an issue. But remember that every little doubt you have is going to be magnified going forward. All these issues need to be discussed and dealt with now because you will have more difficulty dealing with them later. Many a marriage ended years after an affair because certain issues were not brought up and later became insurmountable. Even if its a slight question in your mind bring it up and work on it until you are 100% satisfied that you have the entire story. Any doubts will threaten the marriage in the future.


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> I've gotten his addresses for the last 15 years or so, and he supposedly moved out here BEFORE we did. So....yeah.


That's all I was hoping you'd do. Sorry if I was a pest about it. 

You're doing a great job. Take care.


----------



## jim123

Torn,

Get to the truth as soon as you can because R can not happen You have given her consequences so that it not an issue. You moved out and then made her move out. You have put a value on you and a value on your marriage.

I am sorry but I do think the affair went longer and is deeper than you now know. The math does not work nor does her explanton.

If she was five weeks on March 5th and the A started mid Feb then there is a less than zero chance. But why does he think it may be his.

If they had only three time together with two of those being at his work and only one night at his home, how is it so strong.

Ask these questions and get to the truth for both of you.


----------



## JCD

TornNBroken said:


> I've gotten his addresses for the last 15 years or so, and he supposedly moved out here BEFORE we did. So....yeah.


Wait wait wait!

Let's not be overly hasty. Coincidences are NEVER EVER coincidences!

Now...who SUGGESTED that you move to Colorado? Was it her? If SHE did it, SHE wanted to move with her Florida lover but she laid low for YEARS so she didn't reveal her love and infatuation, waiting until she had two years of her cycle down so she could have the other mans' baby so she could wait to divorce him and take him for his big doctor salary and maintain her massage boytoy in luxury while raising his baby...

Now, the Trilateral Commision comes in there somehow, but I haven't worked out if they are for or against the Day Vampires.

ARRGGHH!!


----------



## InlandTXMM

Out of 50 states for this guy to have a cell phone number in, it's the same place she's had her flings. Plus her timing on the affair and the depth of the involvement just uncovered makes the 2-month / 3-hump thing a little more than suspect. Emotional bonds take time. She was in FL (and admittedly doing dudes IN FL), two years ago.

Yeah. I'm an extremist. How dare I try to help the guy piece together some truth from the sh*t stew his wife is serving.

JCD you are mistaking the exploring of possibilities for some kind of witch hunt. And I don't recall anyone here calling you names for plopping down your opinions in huge doses.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Torn, sorry if I fanned the flames here on this FL phone number thing. Like anything else on this board, there is something else to be learned from it or not. It either bothers you now or not. It will either bug you someday after R or D or it will not.

My hope is you examine the possibilities, using tools and discussions to come (perhaps even polygraph that seems frequently prescribed here - if you want, or not if you don't), such that after you make your decisions (Ror D) you can have peace that you did what you needed to do to make the best choice for all and especially you.

I'm going to try to disconnect a bit from TAM for my own issues, for a day or two. I continue to wish you, and even her, the best way forward.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Just found out...need advice *



JCD said:


> Wait wait wait!
> 
> Let's not be overly hasty. Coincidences are NEVER EVER coincidences!
> 
> Now...who SUGGESTED that you move to Colorado? Was it her? If SHE did it, SHE wanted to move with her Florida lover but she laid low for YEARS so she didn't reveal her love and infatuation, waiting until she had two years of her cycle down so she could have the other mans' baby so she could wait to divorce him and take him for his big doctor salary and maintain her massage boytoy in luxury while raising his baby...
> 
> Now, the Trilateral Commision comes in there somehow, but I haven't worked out if they are for or against the Day Vampires.
> 
> ARRGGHH!!


Hey JCD, remember when you told me I should reign you in when you go too far? Consider yourself reigned. Lol


----------



## JCD

bfree said:


> Hey JCD, remember when you told me I should reign you in when you go too far? Consider yourself reigned. Lol


Consider me gagged. Can we drop this now?


----------



## SomedayDig

bfree said:


> Hey JCD, remember when you told me I should reign you in when you go too far? Consider yourself reigned. Lol


I will admit to chuckling at his Trilateral Commission comment, though! :rofl:


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Just found out...need advice *



JCD said:


> Consider me gagged. Can we drop this now?


When Torn said he was satisfied that the Florida area code wasn't an issue I figured the subject was closed. After all, he's the one that needs to have his mind put at ease. He just needs to make sure not to dismiss any concerns no matter how small and insignificant they may seen now because those little issues grow into elephants later on. And the infidelity itself is already a huge elephant in the room to deal with.


----------



## Acabado

It's always wise to put into questions everything and digging for the truth is a no brainer.
I find shocking tough people here doubts the extent of this affair only based in the fact OM seemed too determined to get her, even to the point pf raising another man's child.
OM could be a player, trying to prolong this as long as OP was in the dark.
OM could also fall deep with WW. Happens everyday. Even with less than four times sex. Geez people falls deep with no sex! Happens everyday.
If (just if) finnaly happens they only did it four times I wouldn't conclude OM was just playing. People do all kind of crazy things with they feel in lurrve, intoxicated by butterflies in the stomach.


----------



## Aunt Ava

TornNBroken said:


> so she said. . . . I also have been living with guilt and shame the past two years and I just want a fresh new start...that's why I told you everything, because I want to start over, but I need your help."
> 
> So she's trickling it...


 wait, she said she's been feeling guilty and ashamed for 2 (two) years. If I remember correctly you have been married for 6 years.....so for the first 4 years she was fine with being a . . . let's just say having flexible boundaries?


----------



## larry.gray

Shaggy said:


> My advice is to schedule a polygraph for her for Mondsy or Tuesday and flat out ask her.
> 
> Right now you are seeking answers from materials that have already been thoroughly cleansed.


Make that a week from Monday or Tuesday. A poly is moot if Torn finds out Friday the kid isn't his.


----------



## TornNBroken

Aunt Ava said:


> wait, she said she's been feeling guilty and ashamed for 2 (two) years. If I remember correctly you have been married for 6 years.....so for the first 4 years she was fine with being a . . . let's just say having flexible boundaries?


She was faithful for the first 4 years. Unless you're referring to when I mentioned she kissed a guy when we were dating way back in high school. But I think that's a little different than when he started being unfaithful in FL.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## workindad

TNB- I do find it very odd that this guy is willing to raise another man's child after such a short time span...

I am very sorry for the situation you and your family are in.

Take care of yourself
WD


----------



## sandc

*Re: Re: Just found out...need advice *



TornNBroken said:


> So is that it then? Is that the point of no return? Its one thing to try and forgive and R with someone who did something stupid physically and now regrets it, but its another to try and forgive someone for falling in love with someone else, but who wants to now be with me because "logically" I'd be the better husband.


I haven't caught up with the other posts yet but, yes. This. This is basically the situation. You will have a tough decision if you find out the child is yours. 

There are women out there who never cheat. Just saying.


----------



## Aunt Ava

TornNBroken said:


> "P**** what? P**** ********.
> When you were gone in Florida, we didn't have sex, but I'd sleep in the same bed as **** and we went dancing a few times and made out. Then he left and I had a one night stand with one of his friends (J**** ****). He wore a condom. Then a week later I went to a party at L**** bf house and N*** ****** showed up. I was asleep passed out drunk on the couch and he carried me into a room and locked the door and I told him no multiple times and was on my period and I felt like he took advantage of me, but I also felt like a dirty ***** from the week before so felt like it didn't matter. I also kissed a guy on NYE 2011-12 that I didn't even know.
> 
> It took me 2 years to forgive myself for what I did in Florida. I hated myself and even felt like I pushed you away in some ways because I knew I didn't deserve you. I was depressed and lonely. I promised myself I'd never do it again. So then when I did it again with P****, I realized i needed help. i couldn't keep doing this. I had to come clean to you. I'm tired of lying to you. You deserve more than this. I dont want to keep anything from you. You are my best friend, my favorite person in the world, my other half and I'm pleading for your forgiveness."
> 
> FYI, when I was in school in FL, I had to leave for some rotations across the country.


 Torn, sorry I am trying to get clear on the time line, were these events after you were married? Or before? 

She says it took her two years to forgive herself for what she did in Florida - then later she says she's felt guilty and ashamed for two years. Is this all the same two year period? Sorry to bring it up again but I am trying to understand the sequence of incidents.


----------



## sandc

Torn, was your wife a Christian when she went to Florida? Just curious. All my other posts I've been speaking as a man for this post I want to speak as a Christian. If the child is yours and you can forgive her and reconcile I think that would be the greatest thing you could do for her and for yourself. If you do go down that road you need to get your church leadership involved. They and you need to hold her accountable for many many years to come. But please make sure you count the cost before you attempt this. God doesn't always call everyone to reconcile. He could be using your divorce to further sanctify your wife and draw her closer to him. Or he could be using your wife to do the same thing for you. Think long and hard and prayerfully consider everything you have to do in the coming weeks. God bless.


----------



## Shaggy

@JCD, you need to reread the thread. This current guy isn't the first guy, she also admitted to cheating in Florida as well. He's just the latest in a series of men.


----------



## Aunt Ava

TornNBroken said:


> Correct. The FL guys over the span of about a week, 2 years ago, and then nothing until these last 2 months....allegedly.


Okay...never mind...I found this while re-reading. Sorry, I missed it previously. 

I do have to say how unusual it seems that massage guy is so devoted and in love with her after only two months...so much so that he would be willing to raise (possibly) another man's child. 

I know some think he is a player...but what evidence points that direction? He is a JW after all, perhaps he fell in wuv with her and she led him astray. Their emails do reek of schmoopie soul mate/star crossed lovers wuv. Yeah, he's a masseuse but surely not all masseuse are players...are they?


----------



## wonders73

Hi, I'm sorry you are going through such a tough time on your path. 

I got myself out of a bad marriage when my daughter was 3 years old. I did this on purpose after reading A LOT about what separation does to children. After my research and searching my spirit... I did it... I told her father that I wanted a divorce because we weren't happy and at times barely liked each other. My daughter is 11 years old now and what we realized we "can" do is co-parent for her sake. She is an amazing, lively, self confident little girl because it's what I've instilled in her. She is not the result of circumstance and she will not be messed up and will take life by the horns. Whether together in the same house or separate your child just needs to be surrounded in LOVE and not by strife. 

In terms of needing an answer on what to do. Everything that happens in life is what was supposed to happen - good, bad, or indifferent. It's a hard reality to face...but it is carving you out to help you to evolve on your own path. You WILL be fine when all is said and done... and you WILL be happy.. you are just going through a Valley right now... but whether you stay with your wife 'or' open yourself up to new possibilities - you and your child will be just fine... IF that's what you decide to make and allow to happen. 

Always approach everything in love... forgiveness is hard, but it's a decision. If anything - find a way to forgive her for yourself regardless of the outcome. 

Be well.


----------



## 2asdf2

Aunt Ava said:


> -------------snip for brevity---------
> 
> Yeah, he's a masseuse but surely not all masseuse are players...are they?


masseuse = female massage person.

masseur = male massage person.

Sorry for the interruption.


----------



## JCD

Shaggy said:


> @JCD, you need to reread the thread. This current guy isn't the first guy, she also admitted to cheating in Florida as well. He's just the latest in a series of men.


Yup. But what is being suggested is a constant cheating since them, with some guy supposedly following her or some such?

And I find that much less likely then a Spokeo mix up...Woman, particularly for massage therapists, are easy to find. They are PAYING MONEY to see him...


----------



## Acabado

workindad said:


> TNB- I do find it very odd that this guy is willing to raise another man's child after such a short time span...





Aunt Ava said:


> I do have to say how unusual it seems that massage guy is so devoted and in love with her after only two months...so much so that he would be willing to raise (possibly) another man's child.


Back to my latest post.
It's indeed unusual... but people says all kind of crazy things when they are in love. Even if just to the make the point they are pretty much in luuurv. And it happens very quickly. I'm sure many people here fell this way.

In this point I can believe WW regarding this. She wrote OP that OM was a grown up and would get over it rather quickly or something on this line. My guess she knew it was luuurv speech bull.
From what we know OM didn't try to reach out after the NC email so...


----------



## PBear

Torn, what I'd do if I was you...

If you're interested in reconciling, and if you feel like she's tried to mislead you about the emotional aspect of her last affair, then tell her she's got one final shot to come clean before the test results come back next Friday. Tell her that you know she's lied to you about some of the stuff she's already told you, and if she doesn't come clean by Friday, the one thing you can promise is that your first call will be to a divorce lawyer. If she asks what you're talking about, tell her to think about everything she's admitted to and what questions you've asked. It might be the number of guys, number of times, any of the questions you've asked. I wouldn't mention the emotional aspect of her relationship itself; no sense giving it away that that's what you know. Don't tell her where the information came from. Basically, let her provide YOU with information, not just confirm something that you already know. Let her sweat about what loose ends she's left unraveled.

Never make a boundary/ultimatum that you're not willing to enforce. It will just make it easier for her to disregard any future ones. I know, in hindsight it's easy to say that... But keep it in mind for the future, too. That's why I said to say that your first call if she didn't come clean would be to a divorce lawyer, not that you'd divorce. You could even threaten that she'll get a copy of divorce papers. Still doesn't mean you can't reconcile. But things like that will make her realize that a) you're serious and b) if you make a threat, it will be consequences if she fails to listen to them.

Sorry you're dealing with this...

C


----------



## Machiavelli

TornNBroken said:


> Oh, and the other thing she talked about was how him being a JW would've been an issue down the road, even though he didn't think it would be. That's another aspect that I haven't brought up yet...and I apologize if there are any JWs reading this, but we've always thought JWs were CRAZY. We are both traditional Christians and we had some friends that turned out to be JWs and we would always make light of their ridiculous beliefs with it being a sin to vote or celebrate a birthday. Anyways, I just wonder if that was a big factor in this as well. If he had been just a 'regular' Christian, would she have been willing to leave me? She's also denied repeatedly ever seriously considering leaving me for him, but c'mon, what is she gonna tell me.


One thing I've noticed over the years is that Christian women aren't really attracted to a man because he's a serious believer. If a woman is attracted to a man, The Lord is always going to be "okay" with it, whether that man is a Christian or not. Once that is settled, the woman will follow her new man's lead on belief or even into unbelief. There are exceptions, bell curve, NAWALT, YMMV, etc. Just something I've noticed.


----------



## Machiavelli

InlandTXMM said:


> Then she wins, frankly.
> 
> Romantically and sexually, she had you as Plan B.
> Once a baby showed up, and she got a real offer from Petey to step in and be the breadwinner, your bank account looked a whole lot better, so she came forward to end it and try to hang on to the better lifestyle if she could. Like chess pieces, you suddenly became Plan A and she moved Petey to backup.
> 
> But if you drop her, she still has Petey. So why not go for the pot of gold first, and instead settle for massage boy? Perfectly, coldly, calculatingly, logical.
> 
> And two men ready to fall on their swords for her? How lucky can a girl get?


Inland, you're on a roll.


----------



## Chaparral

If she affaired down, which seems really obvious, I can see him offering to raise someone elses kid and any thing else he could think of to land s woman that was clearly out of his league. It looks to me like she would be thinking his offer was really creepy. Unless I'm mistaken, for her it would be kind of like marrying the pool boy.


----------



## larry.gray

sandc said:


> There are women out there who never cheat. Just saying.


I'll give you a hint, when word gets out about this at church if you do divorce her, women will flock to you.


----------



## Wiserforit

chapparal said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, for her it would be kind of like marrying the pool boy.


And they were both saying all of this intense stuff, with her about how wonderful and safe she felt with pool boy. Because after all, if someone she knew needed a massage then wow pool boy could step right in and save the day. Whereas her ratty old husband - all he could do was provide a good living for her and the child. He matched her religious beliefs, he was an upstanding, faithful guy.,..

I'm not sure if there is much value in differentiating between whether she was in a delusional affair fog, truly in love, or a player herself toying with pool boy. 

Because either way, the husband has been lied to. That's why we're all about full disclosure at TAM. No erasing emails, no trickle-truth, just knock it all off.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

TornNBroken said:


> She told him she loved him. That being with him she realized how much she 'missed having butterflies'.....(those fvcking butterflies again). She missed being "madly in love, feeling giddy over silly things like text messages, and all those feelings you give me so easily. When I'm with you I am so incredibly happy. I feel safe. I feel complete. I agree with you that we have a deep connection that is hard to find."
> 
> So yeah, its sounds like she thinks she's in love. To me, it sounds like the damn infatuation phase that she always told me she missed with us. She went on in her letters to him to say that she thinks down the road they wouldn't feel the same, once that newness wore off. So I think she kinda realizes that it is infatuation maybe? I don't know what to believe she truly felt, but those are some damn strong words from her.


I think she speaks there out of her hart, and you hit the nail on the head.

The infatuation is a true feeling, it is the feeling of being in love, of the butterflies, but this in an EA is the kind of the Dark Side. One realises that when shocked out of it.

Now you tell she missed this with you. That is where the mutual responsilibility was... The wants to try to work on this, and if you do to, you can have this infatuation back in your life later on. On the Light Side, of a positive loving relation. Where is belongs.

Some couples can do this, I have not read yet the posts after this one, but I really hope you can do this, I get from her words a sincere impression.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

bfree said:


> torn,
> 
> i'm sorry that you ended up finding out more than you thought. Frankly it is not really surprising to those of us who have been on tam for a while. Her telling him that she loved him and they would ride off into the sunset together is not all that shocking. Affairs by their very nature are a fantasy and that is part of it. And the fact that you made the same mistake that many others have made by threatening divorce if you found out more is also not surprising. Let this be a lesson to not give any ultimatiums that you don't intend to absolutely stick to.
> 
> As to what to do now. I do agree with decorum that you should give her a chance to come clean about the ea portion of her affair. However unlike others i think you should do this before you get the paternity test results. As has already been stated if you find out the child is yours your feelings are going to change. You are going to be relieved and elated and less likely to impose strict consequences that will aid your reconciliation. I think you should have that conversation now so that the mechanisms are in place for r going forward. If you end up rugsweeping this to an extent you are going to seriously regret it later. I would suggest you start putting together your demands for r now and get your wife to agree to them *on the condition that the child is yours *so that your emotions are not dictating your actions.


this


----------



## See_Listen_Love

I think posters are too much jumping to conclusions here. While the majority of WS may behave like all these predictions, there is a certain pre-selection of these statistics in that a certain type of cases is presented on TAM.

The harshness is caused by the experiences of the TAM people combined.

I think Torn is showing the right attitude in dealing with this, he has to wait and see how things develop, and try to keep an eye for subtlety. Even in such a serious case.

And we see only his side of the story, but like in many cases there is a reason why WS search for something outside the marriage. So there can be an element of guilt that keeps him from judging to much. I think she was very wrong a number of times, but there is a possibility she want to come back from sin. She has to get a little credit for that possibility.

I miss that in the quick and hard judgements of his wife.


----------



## Wiserforit

See_Listen_Love said:


> And we see only his side of the story, but like in many cases there is a reason why WS search for something outside the marriage. So there can be an element of guilt that keeps him from judging to much.


So we should blame Tom like you instead of jumping to conclusions.


----------



## Chaparral

Torn,have your read MMSLP yet? It is designed to bring out the "the butterflies."


----------



## turnera

SLL's points are valid as they concern marriages in general. We ALL have a responsibility to keep an eye on our marriage and ensure we are not letting it stagnate. Not to keep affairs away, but because we made a VOW to our spouse to put them first. And, human nature being what it is, that slips as the years go by. 

I always recommend that people have a state of the marriage address at least once a month. A 'safe' zone where you can each state what's bugging you, so the other can hear it and go off and think about it and either address the issue, or talk about it.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Wiserforit said:


> So we should blame Tom like you instead of jumping to conclusions.


I can't follow the line of thinking you display, I suspect some sarcasm, I actually hope, that would indicate you understood what I said.


----------



## northland

Sarcasm has no place on forums like this, it's too easily misunderstood and serve no productive purpose.


----------



## Wiserforit

See_Listen_Love said:


> I can't follow the line of thinking you display,


 It isn't because it is difficult to see. It is the blindness of hypocrisy.

You blamed Tom. Without one scintilla of evidence:



> And we see only his side of the story, but like in many cases there is a reason why WS search for something outside the marriage


But you lectured others about not jumping to conclusions at the same time you jumped to a conclusion that Tom is responsible for his wife having an affair.

It's pretty incredible you can't see that even when it is pointed out to you. 

Follow your own advice.


----------



## turnera

He didn't say that.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

northland said:


> Sarcasm has no place on forums like this, it's too easily misunderstood and serve no productive purpose.


Sometimes making light of the events can help you to laugh about it and release stress. It holds so much power over you when you have anger and stress about the issue.

When you are able to laugh about it, in light of the fact that there are others in the same predicament, it can help you to feel better.

Also laughing about it, can help create distance which is needed for detachment.


----------



## northland

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Sometimes making light of the events can help you to laugh about it and release stress. It holds so much power over you when you have anger and stress about the issue.
> 
> When you are able to laugh about it, in light of the fact that there are others in the same predicament, it can help you to feel better.
> 
> Also laughing about it, can help create distance which is needed for detachment.


I was being sarcastic when I said that.


----------



## Suspecting

TornNBroken said:


> But this guy was always all over other girls in my class, especially at drunken parties, *he had forced himself on other girls that I know of*. My wife has always been disgusted with him, at least to my face. And we had some talks during that week about how sad his life was and how he was still a creep and an alcoholic (there were other girls with us who he was creeping on).


Did I understand this right, you knew this guy had raped other girls yet you did not report him? And now your wife tells he had raped her too? :scratchhead:


----------



## larry.gray

Maybe. Or maybe she knew what he was like and let it happen.


----------



## TornNBroken

So as I await the paternity test results, I'm still torn and not clear as to what I'm truly thinking and feeling. I have kinda resolved myself to look at my situation as black and white at the moment; if its my kid, I stay and attempt to R, if its not my kid, I'm out the door.

I don't know if that's the best way to approach it, or if its is actually how I feel....I wonder if I'm just taking the easy why out by letting the paternity test decide my fate???

My wife has asked me a lot of 'what if' scenarios like "What if its yours, but then I miscarry? Will you stay then?"

I can't make a decision until I know for sure about the kid, but I don't want to simply get the results and say "Ok. Its mine. Lets give it a shot." 'Cause she'll just think I'm staying only for the kid, and that can't be a healthy emotional platform for her to try and rebuild a marriage...

I have done a good job to not actually say anything meaningful in response because 1) I don't really know and 2) if I did know I wouldn't want her to know (if that makes any sense).

I don't think that I would stay with someone that I hated and couldn't stand looking at on a daily basis just for a kid, but I also don't think that I could be with someone I loved and wanted to reconcile with if they were pregnant with some other guy's kid. So if the kid IS mine, and I stay, it won't be solely because of the kid. But if its NOT mine, I feel like that could nullify my willingness to make things work.

I guess what really threw me for a loop was her question about having a miscarriage. When I try to approach this with no baby in the picture it really makes things more complicated almost. Ugh. ???


Sorry, I hope that makes sense, and I'm just looking for some clarity and insight.

Hopefully someone has something to add that could help clear things up a bit for me.

Thanks.

Torn.


----------



## Cabsy

I'm glad to see you're still handling things like a champ. There are a lot of "what if" scenarios, but you'll have your answers soon enough. In the meantime, how much do those answers really mean in the light of everything you've already learned and experienced? I'm pulling for you in whatever direction you go - stay strong and vigilant, good luck.


----------



## TornNBroken

I don't know Cabsy. I feel a lot better than I did on DDay and the following week, but I don't know if that's just cause time has past and the shock has worn off. I'm not really actively discovering new things that cause new hurt. I think I have the whole story (or at least 99% of it), but how am I to know what I really feel? How will I know when I've made a decision that I truly believe in?


----------



## TornNBroken

I can make a strong argument to myself both ways, and at some times I feel convicted to stay, and other times I feel like it'd be best to go. Do I just need more time to let those feelings sort themselves out so I can pick one and stick to it? 

Is it just an acceptable option to say, "well, I'm not sure what to do, so I'll just try to R and see how it goes?"


----------



## LostViking

TornNBroken said:


> I don't know Cabsy. I feel a lot better than I did on DDay and the following week, but I don't know if that's just cause time has past and the shock has worn off. I'm not really actively discovering new things that cause new hurt. I think I have the whole story (or at least 99% of it), but how am I to know what I really feel? How will I know when I've made a decision that I truly believe in?


You feel better because you are emotionally detaching, stepping back, and viewing your plight more objectively. As you continue, you will feel better and the view will become sharper. 

My prediction is that you will begin to see the full ugliness of your WW's betrayal without the rose-colored lenses of the love glasses distorting your view.


----------



## TornNBroken

LostViking said:


> You feel better because you are emotionally detaching, stepping back, and viewing your plight more objectively. As you continue, you will feel better and the view will become sharper.
> 
> My prediction is that you will begin to see the full ugliness of your WW's betrayal without the rose-colored lenses of the love glasses distorting your view.


See, I feel the opposite. I feel like at the beginning, when I was reading emails and text messages that I dug up, reading deleted FB posts, that's when I was seeing the ugliness. That's when I felt nauseous over what she had done and it was taking all I had not to do something rash and just call it quits right then and there. I feel now that the initial shock has worn off, I'm coming to terms somewhat with the 'What' and know I'm just trying to deal with the 'What now.'

I feel like I'm moving in the other direction than what your comments say. Why would it start to shift back to my initial feelings?


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## LostViking

TornNBroken said:


> See, I feel the opposite. I feel like at the beginning, when I was reading emails and text messages that I dug up, reading deleted FB posts, that's when I was seeing the ugliness. That's when I felt nauseous over what she had done and it was taking all I had not to do something rash and just call it quits right then and there. I feel now that the initial shock has worn off, I'm coming to terms somewhat with the 'What' and know I'm just trying to deal with the 'What now.'
> 
> I feel like I'm moving in the other direction than what your comments say. Why would it start to shift back to my initial feelings?


Do you think you are setting yourself up to rugsweep?


----------



## Cabsy

TornNBroken said:


> I don't know Cabsy. I feel a lot better than I did on DDay and the following week, but I don't know if that's just cause time has past and the shock has worn off. I'm not really actively discovering new things that cause new hurt. I think I have the whole story (or at least 99% of it), but how am I to know what I really feel? How will I know when I've made a decision that I truly believe in?


I don't know brother. I can only imagine the turmoil you are in, going through the same thing as me, but with the paternity of a child up in the air as well. I just wish you the best, and you clearly have the strength to move beyond whatever crap life has thrown your way, and I think you'll be fine. You're a moral person, so you'll try to take care of other people in the end: Just make sure to take care of yourself.


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## TornNBroken

LostViking said:


> Do you think you are setting yourself up to rugsweep?


That's a good question I suppose. I have always been a very laid back person and I get over things pretty quickly. My wife and I have had arguments on more than one occasion when she brings up something annoying/hurtful/embarrassing that someone has done to her and I say, "sheesh, that was 6 months ago, why are you dwelling on that. JUST LET IT GO." Her whole family tends to hold grudges, even over stupid stuff, and I've seen it ruin relationships. Anyways...

I DO think that my personal make up would allow me to get over her infidelity perhaps easier than she might have if roles were reversed. BUT, I really don't think I'm gonna rug sweep. If I do choose to R, I plan to air out EVERYTHING and work through things with a counselor. Are there more subtle ways to rugsweep, even unknowingly, while you are trying to take the appropriate R steps?


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## PieceOfSky

Torn,

I think part of what you are struggling with is you really don't know how you are going to feel when you get the results. Nobody could.

The danger, IMHO, is you may not be letting yourself feel much at the moment. It hasn't been that long since you found out these things, and some of it trickled in. Seems like a pretty natural process to limit the extent to which you process it; seems like detachment could be a coping strategy.

I think that is a danger to your long term mental health, (i happen to think that is the story of my life, so maybe I'm buased), but trust you'll address all this sucky **** in a healthy manner when you can, and do that much better than most would.

But what this all means for the short term I have no idea. For me, I think the more detached I can be then the more logical decision I can make; yet, the less attention I give to my feelings-- or the more I snuff them out -- the more risk I am to being subconsciously fooled by the unfelt/unexamined.

I know it's not for everyone, but I wish you had an excellent therapist familiar with the process a BS brain goes through, in the sort of emergency/traumatizing situation you are in. Do you think it is possible a well trained counselor with decades of experience would have anything to offer you in these next few days and weeks?

I


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## TornNBroken

Yeah, its hard to tell if I'm detached, or just approaching things from a logical, calm state-of-mind.

I do think a therapist would be helpful, but they are expensive, and I'm kinda waiting to try MC if we R. Is IC usually necessary in addition to MC, or is MC enough?


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, its hard to tell if I'm detached, or just approaching things from a logical, calm state-of-mind.
> 
> I do think a therapist would be helpful, but they are expensive, and I'm kinda waiting to try MC if we R. Is IC usually necessary in addition to MC, or is MC enough?


No idea about "usually".

Right now, in my marriage, I see no role for MC as it seems premature, and she and I both have issues best addressed in IC.

In your case, IMHO you first and foremost need IC if you are going to make the healthiest choices.

I don't know what your money situation, but, even if you have to take on debt here, it seems like getting whatever help you can is worth it. You are talking about your life, the life of a child, and the woman you have loved for many years. 

Buying therapy is not a lifetime commitment. Not buying therapy is.


----------



## PastOM

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, its hard to tell if I'm detached, or just approaching things from a logical, calm state-of-mind.
> 
> I do think a therapist would be helpful, but they are expensive, and I'm kinda waiting to try MC if we R. Is IC usually necessary in addition to MC, or is MC enough?


Highly recommend IC to get your head around what's going on and to help you.

The MC will help later - but really IC is a wonderful thing. Be sure to take a little time to choose the right therapist for you - interview a few first.


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## oregonmom

Torn,
You are still very close to D-Day. Despite what a lot of posters think, I don't believe you need to rush into a decision if the child is yours. It takes time to process everything. That does not make you weak.

I would also suggest IC. If you live near a university, you can see if they offer therapy to the general public. That is where I go and it has been a great experience at a very discounted rate. That will help you sort things out and make a decision. If it turns out to be R, that is when you should look into MC.

180 and detach while you are making your decision. I found it helpful to write a list of what I needed to R, then I had a tangible list to look at instead of tons of thoughts bouncing around in my head. Think about what kind of boundaries you would need to have. No empty threats, you need to follow through with anything you say.

You don't owe your wife any answers about what ifs. It is very acceptable to tell her that. 

You are doing very well for the situation you are in. As confusing as this all is, it is all very normal. I will pray for you.


----------



## Hicks

Being truthful about being hesitant to stick with her does not work to your advantage.

What you should be doing is letting her know that you will not raise another man's child (which you have told her). If that's the case you have to be ready real quick with a lawyer becuase a child born while you are married is considered your child whether you are the bio father or not.

Your goal should be a post nuptial agreement. All the talk you should be having should be about what she is going to do to make you want to stay in the marriage. How could you possibly know if you are going to stay in the marrriage if you don't even know how safe you are yet? Things like a post nup, and whatever other precautions will be in place, go a long way to making you feel safe.


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## TornNBroken

oregonmom said:


> I found it helpful to write a list of what I needed to R, then I had a tangible list to look at instead of tons of thoughts bouncing around in my head. Think about what kind of boundaries you would need to have.


I've been thinking about this, and I know its something that I personally need to decide on, but would you mind sharing your list? Or if anyone else has anything similar that they could share to get me thinking. That way I can either agree that I need to have that on my list, or I can decide its not a deal breaker for me...

Thanks in advance.


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## Chaparral

You have to read MMSLP NOW. Their is some good advice here. But , the 180 is for preparing to leave your wife. I would simply tell her I am trying really trying hard to make this work but it takes time. Tell her things are getting better. 

It is too soon to make a call. I personally would not raise his child.

She may be thinking about an abortion, hence the miscarriage remark. I personally don't believe in abortion except for a few exceptions. This is one of them.

READ MMSLP NOW. Read both of the books linked to below. Right now you are pushing for a conclusion too early without enough info.


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## TornNBroken

Chapparal,

So after finding out paternity results (and assuming its mine), are you advocating a trial period, before a true R? I mean, if its mine, I was thinking of asking her to move back in and begin to attempt R. Can you have some kind of in-between phase? What other info would need to be gathered before I decide to R?

And she's not considering an abortion. We are both strongly against that, pretty much unless the mother's life is in danger.


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## Chaparral

Have you read any of the books recommended on this forum? Are you working out? Have you read the newbies thread?


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> So as I await the paternity test results, I'm still torn and not clear as to what I'm truly thinking and feeling. I have kinda resolved myself to look at my situation as black and white at the moment; if its my kid, I stay and attempt to R, if its not my kid, I'm out the door.
> 
> I don't know if that's the best way to approach it, or if its is actually how I feel....I wonder if I'm just taking the easy why out by letting the paternity test decide my fate???
> 
> My wife has asked me a lot of 'what if' scenarios like "What if its yours, but then I miscarry? Will you stay then?"
> 
> I can't make a decision until I know for sure about the kid, but I don't want to simply get the results and say "Ok. Its mine. Lets give it a shot." 'Cause she'll just think I'm staying only for the kid, and that can't be a healthy emotional platform for her to try and rebuild a marriage...
> 
> I have done a good job to not actually say anything meaningful in response because 1) I don't really know and 2) if I did know I wouldn't want her to know (if that makes any sense).
> 
> I don't think that I would stay with someone that I hated and couldn't stand looking at on a daily basis just for a kid, but I also don't think that I could be with someone I loved and wanted to reconcile with if they were pregnant with some other guy's kid. So if the kid IS mine, and I stay, it won't be solely because of the kid. But if its NOT mine, I feel like that could nullify my willingness to make things work.
> 
> I guess what really threw me for a loop was her question about having a miscarriage. When I try to approach this with no baby in the picture it really makes things more complicated almost. Ugh. ???
> 
> 
> Sorry, I hope that makes sense, and I'm just looking for some clarity and insight.
> 
> Hopefully someone has something to add that could help clear things up a bit for me.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Torn.


Could you have predicted what your reaction would have to her revelation of infidelity? To her revelation that it might be another man's baby? No, right?

Well, you can't predict how you will feel if she miscarries. It's something you just have to feel.

There is no deadline for a decision.

If you are not pursuing a divorce, by default, you are reconciling, no matter how half-hearted it may be.

Take it a day at a time.

One thing that strikes me is that you feel that you have to be the one to make a decision, that it is all on you, and if you decide to reconcile, you have to "work" on reconciling.

Maybe it's better to look at yourself as an unmolded lump of clay - she has to convince you to try to reconcile, and she has to do all the "work" involved in making you feel OK with it.

In the meantime, play your cards close to the vest. Don't let her ask you questions "what if" this or "what if" that. Tell her that you are torn up enough and it is only hurting you more to have to deal with her hypotheticals.


----------



## JCD

TornNBroken said:


> So as I await the paternity test results, I'm still torn and not clear as to what I'm truly thinking and feeling. I have kinda resolved myself to look at my situation as black and white at the moment; if its my kid, I stay and attempt to R, if its not my kid, I'm out the door.
> 
> I don't know if that's the best way to approach it, or if its is actually how I feel....I wonder if I'm just taking the easy why out by letting the paternity test decide my fate???
> 
> My wife has asked me a lot of 'what if' scenarios like "What if its yours, but then I miscarry? Will you stay then?"
> 
> I can't make a decision until I know for sure about the kid, but I don't want to simply get the results and say "Ok. Its mine. Lets give it a shot." 'Cause she'll just think I'm staying only for the kid, and that can't be a healthy emotional platform for her to try and rebuild a marriage...
> 
> I have done a good job to not actually say anything meaningful in response because 1) I don't really know and 2) if I did know I wouldn't want her to know (if that makes any sense).
> 
> I don't think that I would stay with someone that I hated and couldn't stand looking at on a daily basis just for a kid, but I also don't think that I could be with someone I loved and wanted to reconcile with if they were pregnant with some other guy's kid. So if the kid IS mine, and I stay, it won't be solely because of the kid. But if its NOT mine, I feel like that could nullify my willingness to make things work.
> 
> I guess what really threw me for a loop was her question about having a miscarriage. When I try to approach this with no baby in the picture it really makes things more complicated almost. Ugh. ???
> 
> 
> Sorry, I hope that makes sense, and I'm just looking for some clarity and insight.
> 
> Hopefully someone has something to add that could help clear things up a bit for me.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Torn.


I R'ed ' 'for the kids' and so have several other posters here. There is no shame in this, nor is it petty. Right now, you might not love your wife...and it's pretty certain she loves (loved) you less.

You are making a sacrifice for an innocent involved in all of this.

Now, one can make the argument that even if it isn't your kid, that it is still an innocent and will still need a father. Wouldn't the Christian thing be to still accept her and raise this innocent as your own?

Technically yes, but it is probably outside your ability. It would be outside mine for a few reasons.

First, if you R while it is your child, you have two things going for you: one,the child to keep the bond strong even when you are disgusted and disappointed with the wife and two, you used to LOVE the wife. That love can come back. She is no longer the innocent in the Easter dress. But she is MOSTLY the woman you once knew.

Now, if it is NOT your child, this means that a woman who had health class and yet was sloppy enough, much less disrespectful enough to chance getting preggers with another man. This is true anyway, but is much more in your face than if it's not your kid.

And to follow that theme...if you raise that child it will constantly remind of her infidelity. You wil never be allowed to pretend. This will fester.

If it's your kid, you will be able to put this behind you and eventually pretend it never happened...though you shouldn't forget.


----------



## TornNBroken

chapparal said:


> Have you read any of the books recommended on this forum? Are you working out? Have you read the newbies thread?


Yeah, but what does that have to do with deciding to R or not?


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## TornNBroken

JCD said:


> I R'ed ' 'for the kids' and so have several other posters here. There is no shame in this, nor is it petty. Right now, you might not love your wife...and it's pretty certain she loves (loved) you less.
> 
> You are making a sacrifice for an innocent involved in all of this.
> 
> Now, one can make the argument that even if it isn't your kid, that it is still an innocent and will still need a father. Wouldn't the Christian thing be to still accept her and raise this innocent as your own?
> 
> Technically yes, but it is probably outside your ability. It would be outside mine for a few reasons.
> 
> First, if you R while it is your child, you have two things going for you: one,the child to keep the bond strong even when you are disgusted and disappointed with the wife and two, you used to LOVE the wife. That love can come back. She is no longer the innocent in the Easter dress. But she is MOSTLY the woman you once knew.
> 
> Now, if it is NOT your child, this means that a woman who had health class and yet was sloppy enough, much less disrespectful enough to chance getting preggers with another man. This is true anyway, but is much more in your face than if it's your kid.
> 
> And to follow that theme...*if you raise that child it will constantly remind of her infidelity. You wil never be allowed to forget. This will fester.*
> 
> If it's your kid, you will be able to put this behind you and eventually pretend it never happened...though you shouldn't forget.


Yeah...this.


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## Chaparral

I don't feel like you are taking advantage of some great resources that will help you better understand what and why this type of things happen. If you don't know how to fix the problem, you cannot make a good decision.

Are you seeing your wife at all now, how are you communicating with her?


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## SomedayDig

Torn...here's a question. It's a question about you and even though you are going through a ton of opposing feelings, it might help you sort a few things out.

If you could have this turn out any way, what would that be?


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## TornNBroken

Will_Kane said:


> If you are not pursuing a divorce, by default, you are reconciling, no matter how half-hearted it may be.


Hadn't really considered this....

I guess I kinda looked at my current situation as a sort of limbo. We aren't living together, aren't really talking except for a text or two each day. So it doesn't really feel like R, but I supposed it might just be an early phase of it.


----------



## TornNBroken

SomedayDig said:


> Torn...here's a question. It's a question about you and even though you are going through a ton of opposing feelings, it might help you sort a few things out.
> 
> If you could have this turn out any way, what would that be?


My kid. Successful R. Put the past behind me (as much as possible). Work out a lot of the 'kinks' we had in our pre-DDAY marriage, and come out stronger on the other side.


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## SomedayDig

By the way...I'm gonna go against the MMSLP. Athol Kay was never been cheated on and has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to this sh-t. If you're gonna spend money on anything, read Kevin Jackson "Survive Her Affair". It's straight forward, in your face a bit and has a lot of helpful strategies for dealing with what you're going through.

MMSLP is good for other things, but not someone who just got this sh-t dumped on them. Just my opinion.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> My kid. Successful R. Put the past behind me (as much as possible). Work out a lot of the 'kinks' we had in our pre-DDAY marriage, and come out stronger on the other side.


Okay. Now, you know where you wanna go should the paternity test show that YOU are the father.

First, SHE needs to get into counseling to deal with her broken behavior. YOU need to get into counseling to deal with the PTSD - and yeah...you're gonna have days where sh-t hits you out of the blue and you'll need to have insight.

Second, you need to put your foot down as to what you will NOT put up with in a marriage and that is any sort of inappropriate interaction with men. YOU need to squash that behavior pronto. It's not about controlling her... It's about YOU not letting her disrespect you OR your marriage - which is also disrespectful to herself.

Next, you need ensure full and complete transparency on everything. Cell phone, emails, facebook...you name it - if there's a password...you get access on your own. No her having to check first or type a password in for you - YOU get the passwords.

Get the Kevin Jackson book I wrote about. It was something my wife got me a few weeks after Dday. It was just what I needed as it went into how sh-t is NOT your fault and how to deal with the mind movies that you might get plagued with. It also talks about PTSD...called PISD (pissed)...Post Infidelity Stress Disorder.

You can work through these issues only...and I stress ONLY if both of you are totally on board with what it is gonna take to reconcile. This sh-t ain't for the faint at heart. It takes _years_ to work through this. You won't ever "get over it". You'll learn to deal with it.

Work on you. Take care of YOU. Make sure she takes care of herself as well. Then, and only then will you both be able to work on your marriage.


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## Chaparral

SomedayDig said:


> By the way...I'm gonna go against the MMSLP. Athol Kay was never been cheated on and has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to this sh-t. If you're gonna spend money on anything, read Kevin Jackson "Survive Her Affair". It's straight forward, in your face a bit and has a lot of helpful strategies for dealing with what you're going through.
> 
> MMSLP is good for other things, but not someone who just got this sh-t dumped on them. Just my opinion.


I totally disagree. I think torn needs this info before he works on the rest of the situation. This book gives background information about the typical dynamic in a relationship and I see no downside to reading it, particularly in this instance.

I think you are projecting your situation onto Torn and I do not think the reasons for your two wives to cheat are at all the same.


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## SomedayDig

So, since I'm "projecting" my situation onto Torn are you "projecting" yours by saying he needs to read MMSLP?

Yes. That book does have good information. However, I don't think it will help him one bit when it comes to his desire to learn how to deal with his wife's infidelity.

Have YOU read the Kevin Jackson book? I've read MMSLP.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Just found out...need advice *



SomedayDig said:


> Okay. Now, you know where you wanna go should the paternity test show that YOU are the father.
> 
> First, SHE needs to get into counseling to deal with her broken behavior. YOU need to get into counseling to deal with the PTSD - and yeah...you're gonna have days where sh-t hits you out of the blue and you'll need to have insight.
> 
> Second, you need to put your foot down as to what you will NOT put up with in a marriage and that is any sort of inappropriate interaction with men. YOU need to squash that behavior pronto. It's not about controlling her... It's about YOU not letting her disrespect you OR your marriage - which is also disrespectful to herself.
> 
> Next, you need ensure full and complete transparency on everything. Cell phone, emails, facebook...you name it - if there's a password...you get access on your own. No her having to check first or type a password in for you - YOU get the passwords.
> 
> Get the Kevin Jackson book I wrote about. It was something my wife got me a few weeks after Dday. It was just what I needed as it went into how sh-t is NOT your fault and how to deal with the mind movies that you might get plagued with. It also talks about PTSD...called PISD (pissed)...Post Infidelity Stress Disorder.
> 
> You can work through these issues only...and I stress ONLY if both of you are totally on board with what it is gonna take to reconcile. This sh-t ain't for the faint at heart. It takes _years_ to work through this. You won't ever "get over it". You'll learn to deal with it.
> 
> Work on you. Take care of YOU. Make sure she takes care of herself as well. Then, and only then will you both be able to work on your marriage.


Damn good post! The only thing I would add is to highly recommend that transparency go both ways. Be as open and honest with her as you expect her to be with you.


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## Chaparral

SomedayDig said:


> So, since I'm "projecting" my situation onto Torn are you "projecting" yours by saying he needs to read MMSLP?
> 
> Yes. That book does have good information. However, I don't think it will help him one bit when it comes to his desire to learn how to deal with his wife's infidelity.
> 
> Have YOU read the Kevin Jackson book? I've read MMSLP.


Calm down, no I did not read the Kevin Jackson book but I also did not recommend him to not read it either. If you think he should read it, that is good enough for me.

I do not think MMSLP applies to your relationship, just the opposite, nor mine. I just think from reading what Torn writes
that MMSLP is his starting point. I think MMSLP is a foundation for almost all of the male posters that come here. Now, some of the ladies are suggesting it to other women.


----------



## SomedayDig

chapparal said:


> Calm down, no I did not read the Kevin Jackson book but I also did not recommend him to not read it either. If you think he should read it, that is good enough for me.
> 
> I do not think MMSLP applies to your relationship, just the opposite, nor mine. I just think from reading what Torn writes
> that MMSLP is his starting point. I think MMSLP is a foundation for almost all of the male posters that come here. Now, some of the ladies are suggesting it to other women.


LOL. Internet forums rock. Calm down? What makes you think I'm riled up? Must have been the way I typed that letter...

Anyway, if you haven't read "Survive Her Affair", I honestly don't think you can say he needs MMSLP _before_. The Jackson book deals with what he is going through regarding his wife's infidelity. It will help him understand a lot of the psychology behind her affair and what to do to take care of himself.

MMSLP will be a good read for him once he gets through the initial phase of dealing with the affair. It will be good for him to help him re-create himself (if need be) and will be good to put him back in touch with getting back in the driver's seat.

This isn't about me at all. However, I AM putting myself in his shoes because I've walked in them. I know what helped me and the Jackson book, in the beginning, was it. The Harley book got thrown in the trash and MMSLP is on my laptop. I also have The Book of Five Rings, Awaken the Giant Within and How to Practice - The Way to a Meaningful Life all right in front of me on my coffee table.

It's not just ONE book that does it.


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## SomedayDig

bfree said:


> Damn good post! The only thing I would add is to highly recommend that transparency go both ways. Be as open and honest with her as you expect her to be with you.


I didn't hit like cuz you said that about my post.

I hit like because as much as we sometimes don't want to admit it, transparency goes both ways. Even though I had absolutely nothing to hide from Regret, I felt it was BOTH of us that needed transparency to keep communication wide open and honest.

Good point bfree.


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## bfree

SomedayDig said:


> By the way...I'm gonna go against the MMSLP. Athol Kay was never been cheated on and has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to this sh-t. If you're gonna spend money on anything, read Kevin Jackson "Survive Her Affair". It's straight forward, in your face a bit and has a lot of helpful strategies for dealing with what you're going through.
> 
> MMSLP is good for other things, but not someone who just got this sh-t dumped on them. Just my opinion.


While I agree that Athol Kay's writings may not be the best resource to deal with the immediate aftermath of betrayal and the accompanying PTSD symptoms I must disagree that it is not useful. Athol's views on relationships actually stem from the research and knowledge of Dr. Helen Fisher, the foremost expert in the field of Biological Anthropology. Furthermore if you read Mr. Kay's writings you will also note that his advice when it comes to dealing with infidelity mirrors the advice of Dr. James Dobson, author of another favorite book of mine Love Must Be Tough and founder of Focus On The Family. While you may not appreciate his writing style or his emphasis on Alpha/Beta terminology (jargon that I know you have a problem with) his advice is sound and has helped countless numbers of men and women.


----------



## InlandTXMM

TornNBroken said:


> Chapparal,
> 
> So after finding out paternity results (and assuming its mine), are you advocating a trial period, before a true R? I mean, if its mine, I was thinking of asking her to move back in and begin to attempt R. Can you have some kind of in-between phase? What other info would need to be gathered before I decide to R?
> 
> And she's not considering an abortion. We are both strongly against that, pretty much unless the mother's life is in danger.


Torn, you can have any time, in any manner, with any conditions you want. 

I think you are likely just still in a state of shock. In my own experience, this was part of it. It's all still so new and devastating, it's like attending to the wounded at the scene of an accident. You get the decision-making and the wounds addressed, but once quiet settles in, you are in for the emotional rollercoaster ride of a lifetime.

You haven't reached the rage stage yet. Yes, there will come a time that you will loathe your wife, even while trying to reconcile. You will trigger out of nowhere, for months or even years. You will consider revenge affairs. All of this is out of your character, but it's a normal part of the process.

Reconciliation is not for the faint of heart. Be sure you have the right reasons to put you both through it.


----------



## SomedayDig

bfree said:


> While I agree that Athol Kay's writings may not be the best resource to deal with the immediate aftermath of betrayal and the accompanying PTSD symptoms I must disagree that it is not useful. Athol's views on relationships actually stem from the research and knowledge of Dr. Helen Fisher, the foremost expert in the field of Biological Anthropology. Furthermore if you read Mr. Kay's writings you will also note that his advice when it comes to dealing with infidelity mirrors the advice of Dr. James Dobson, author of another favorite book of mine Love Must Be Tough and founder of Focus On The Family. While you may not appreciate his writing style or his emphasis on Alpha/Beta terminology (jargon that I know you have a problem with) his advice is sound and has helped countless numbers of men and women.


I actually DO like his writing style, and to be honest it is that same style that Kevin Jackson writes in. Hell...it's the style I write in! :rofl:

I agree that I key in too much on the alpha stuff, and as I re-read my post, it is incorrect of me to state that since he hasn't dealt with infidelity that he doesn't have any idea to this sh-t. That was a low blow and I apologize. It would be akin to saying to Plan 9 that since he hasn't dealt with infidelity he shouldn't comment in CWI. 

As I said in my last post, Athol's stuff _is_ good stuff. I don't dispute a lot of what he says. Hell, I've used it! I still do!! I guess my opinion is that in the early days of dealing with infidelity, that MMSLP is not the go-to book. That is only my opinion. The Jackson book is my suggestion for a MAN who is dealing with his wife's infidelity. Hell...that's the title - Survive HER Affair. Married Man Sex Life Primer doesn't really speak to that immediate need. It deals with good stuff. Just not that immediate need that we as men are looking for in asking the question "Why".


----------



## Chaparral

I think that infidelity is not the main issue. His first priority is himself, he's confused. Working on himself and working on the infidelity is not mutually exclusive. I just think MMSLP gives, as the title includes Primer, a basis to understand why men and women do what they do. If I were Torn I would start there and then go to the other books.

I also think they should be getting together to talk. 80% of communication is visual. You cannot talk about life changing issues by text.


----------



## SomedayDig

chapparal said:


> I also think they should be getting together to talk. 80% of communication is visual. You cannot talk about life changing issues by text.


I agree 2 million percent with this. Texting is f'ng lazy and passive aggressive. Just as we've seen in this thread...you _can't_ fully understand someone because, as you said, 80% of communication is visual.

I'll disagree on the other part, but again - that's just me


----------



## JCD

chapparal said:


> I think that infidelity is not the main issue. His first priority is himself, he's confused. Working on himself and working on the infidelity is not mutually exclusive. I just think MMSLP gives, as the title includes Primer, a basis to understand why men and women do what they do. If I were Torn I would start there and then go to the other books.


Well, his medical training will allow him to keep Orwellian track of her ovulation...which was a REALLY disturbing aspect of Athol's book.

If I found out some creep at my wife's work was trying to keep track of her cycle, I think I'd punch him. But that's just my Alpha coming out, so he couldn't take offense.


----------



## Chaparral

As an aside, there was a very good TV show on the Discovery or Science channel ( I think). British researchers studied how women behaved sexually. Married women, that were ovulating, were much more aggressive while out Dancing during GNO's than single women. Married women showed more skin, and danced more provocatively than than their single sisters. The seven year itch usually starts about every four years, the length of time a child takes to develope to the point the mother is ready for another child. All subconcious of course.


----------



## JCD

chapparal said:


> As an aside, there was a very good TV show on the Discovery or Science channel ( I think). British researchers studied how women behaved sexually. Married women, that were ovulating, were much more aggressive while out Dancing during GNO's than single women. Married women showed more skin, and danced more provocatively than than their single sisters. The seven year itch usually starts about every four years, the length of time a child takes to develope to the point the mother is ready for another child. All subconcious of course.


Married women CAN act like that because THEY have a filter. It's called a wedding ring. So they can act like a wh*re and use their husband as a 'get out of nookie free' card...IF they want to play it.

Being married takes sex off the table due to culturally agreed upon norms.

Single girls are not. They have to face Cpt Blue Balls and don't have the idea of a man coming to beat the crap out of this guy if he gets a bit too frisky.

A married chick who pushes too far only needs to tell her GFs, the bartender and the bouncer "I'm married" and it's game over for the pushy Cassanova.

In mountain climbing parlence, a single chick is free climbing. Married women have safety lines.


----------



## SomedayDig

Balay on?! LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

TornNBroken said:


> My wife has asked me a lot of 'what if' scenarios like "What if its yours, but then I miscarry? Will you stay then?"


"IDK; what are YOU going to do to ensure this never happens again and that I can start learning to trust you again and that you DESERVE me to stay? This is YOUR issue, not mine."


----------



## Chaparral

Science of Sex Appeal : Videos : Discovery Channel

Here is a link to "Science of Sex Appeal" , its cut up into segments with Direct TV comercials. Irritating.


----------



## turnera

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, its hard to tell if I'm detached, or just approaching things from a logical, calm state-of-mind.
> 
> I do think a therapist would be helpful, but they are expensive, and I'm kinda waiting to try MC if we R. Is IC usually necessary in addition to MC, or is MC enough?


You could see your GP and ask him/her what might help. Sometimes, people will go on temporary ADs for a few months to help them through. If you're numb, that is your mind's self protection mode. It won't last. Expect it not to last. One of these days you're gonna break down; let it happen.

As for the future, just don't make any decisions right now. Give it at least a few months before you make life-altering decisions.


----------



## JCD

chapparal said:


> Science of Sex Appeal : Videos : Discovery Channel
> 
> Here is a link to "Science of Sex Appeal" , its cut up into segments with Direct TV comercials. Irritating.


Thank you.


----------



## turnera

TornNBroken said:


> Yeah, but what does that have to do with deciding to R or not?


 Because many of the books recommended help you learn to set your boundaries of what you will accept in a marriage. Like, "I'll stay with you for now, but it will have to be like this: NO passwords, complete transparency, no girls night out until I stop triggering, you write OM a No Contact letter that I will read and send, etc. If you're not ok with that, then you need to leave."

The books help you see that you DO have a voice and a choice and you can determine what kind of marriage you would R for.


----------



## Suspecting

TornNBroken you need to report the rapist guy. He is a serial sex offender.


----------



## Wiserforit

JCD said:


> Married women CAN act like that because THEY have a filter. It's called a wedding ring.


Might be selection bias too. The best and most aggressive ones are married off before the passive hags.


----------



## Wiserforit

turnera said:


> He didn't say that.


For the third time now I will quote him saying what you claim he didn't say:




See_Listen_Love said:


> I think posters are too much jumping to conclusions here...
> 
> 
> And we see only his side of the story, but like in many cases there is a reason why WS search for something outside the marriage. So there can be an element of guilt that keeps him from judging to much.


----------



## turnera

He said there CAN be an element of guilt. Not IS.


----------



## SomedayDig




----------



## phillybeffandswiss

northland said:


> Sarcasm has no place on forums like this, it's too easily misunderstood and serve no productive purpose.


Neither does rage, hate, misogyny, anger and a myriad of other emotions. All of which are unproductive and can be misunderstood, but serve a purpose whether it is venting or misplaced. It happens and you either ignore it or end up banned.


----------



## oregonmom

TornNBroken said:


> I've been thinking about this, and I know its something that I personally need to decide on, but would you mind sharing your list? Or if anyone else has anything similar that they could share to get me thinking. That way I can either agree that I need to have that on my list, or I can decide its not a deal breaker for me...
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Our situations are really different...my WH is an addict and a lot of my list has to do with that. If he did not stop using and be dedicated to his recovery I was done. That was my bottom line like yours is with the baby not being yours.

I was also a huge doormat, which I don't really get from reading your posts. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and are staying true to your convictions, that is really important.

A short version of my list that may apply to you:
Full transparency without giving me any guff about it
Full disclosure of the A and the past
Cutting off his toxic friends 
No flirting with other women (even tho he insisted that he was just a "friendly guy")
Respect my feelings and actually listen instead of planning his rebuttal
Respect it is going to take a long time to get over all this and no telling me to "get over it" or asking if I am yet (what ifs)
Actively working his program (maybe IC for your WW)
He used anger to intimidate and manipulate me and I would no longer live with that (what does your wife do to manipulate you, or push your buttons? This is really more about YOU, recognize what it is and when that situation arises act the opposite of the norm. You can't tell someone "don't manipulate me", but you can recognize it, react differently and the other person generally will change their tactics because the past manipulation tools no longer work. Hope that made sense.)

I worked on this list for a while...I had it in a place that was easily accessible and whenever anything came to my mind I wrote it down. If we had an interaction that didn't go well, I'd write down what I thought happened and how it could have gone better (on both sides). There were a lot of things that were important at one time, then crossed them off over time because it really wasn't that important. For example, rehab was very important to me in the beginning, but the more I thought about it, rehab only works for the willing. He was adamant that AA/NA was enough and did NOT want to go. He had already been though once. He went to a meeting every night and got heavily involved immediately, and I noticed that was enough. As long as he was doing that, I felt good about it. Bottom line was he needed to be sober and it was not my job to tell him how to do it. He knows what happens if he doesn't stay sober.

Since you are a religious guy, hope you don't mind me sharing a little bit of what helped me spiritually. I believe God has a plan for me. He will lead me along the right path if I quiet myself and ask Him for His guidance. I am in a 12 step program too, and the 11th step prayer has helped me immensely - praying for the knowledge of His will for me and the power to carry that out. Since my D-Day 15 months ago I have experienced things that I never dreamed of praying for. He has done better for me than I could imagine. My marriage is not perfect, our recovery from the A (and countless other things)is far from over. But personally I am completely different, and I have been blessed with a lot of gifts. I have faith he will continue to give me guidance with my marriage and what is meant to happen will - He has showed me that thru the rest of my life. The serenity prayer has also worked wonders for me.

One thing about R, it is not a decision that you are going to stick it out for the next 20+ years. It is just a decision that you are willing to give it a chance. If you give it a try and it isn't working for whatever reason, you can still get out.

Hope there is something helpful to you in this long ramble.


----------



## LongWalk

Torn, somewhere I recall that you wrote that you are in pediatric anesthesiology. That suggests that you very much like children and the idea of having your own. Do you think your wife counted on this to overcome your revulsion to her adultery?


----------



## TornNBroken

turnera said:


> As for the future, just don't make any decisions right now. Give it at least a few months before you make life-altering decisions.


So is it not a 'decision' to have her move back in with me and start to R? I don't think anything productive is happening right now, and I think after I find out the paternity results, there's not a whole lot to wait for before deciding whether to try to R or not.
I suppose I could take more time just to sort out my feelings, but I think I might get some clearer picture of my feelings if I actually spend some time with her (maybe not?).

Also, since I still don't feel the need/don't want to expose things to our family, its getting difficult to keep making excuses why people cant come over, or why we can't go for dinner at my parents, etc. So if she moves back in, we can at least stop worrying about that. 

That being said, I don't want her to move back in too early. But seems like a lot of people who already have kids, coexist in the same house while sorting things out, so maybe its not a big deal...


----------



## TornNBroken

LongWalk said:


> Torn, somewhere I recall that you wrote that you are in pediatric anesthesiology. That suggests that you very much like children and the idea of having your own. Do you think your wife counted on this to overcome your revulsion to her adultery?


If I understand correctly, you're implying that perhaps she thought even if she got pregnant with someone else's child that I might stick around anyway cause I love kids?

If that's the case, no. I don't think that was a factor.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> So is it not a 'decision' to have her move back in with me and start to R? I don't think anything productive is happening right now, and I think after I find out the paternity results, there's not a whole lot to wait for before deciding whether to try to R or not.
> I suppose I could take more time just to sort out my feelings, but I think I might get some clearer picture of my feelings if I actually spend some time with her (maybe not?).
> 
> Also, since I still don't feel the need/don't want to expose things to our family, its getting difficult to keep making excuses why people cant come over, or why we can't go for dinner at my parents, etc. So if she moves back in, we can at least stop worrying about that.
> 
> That being said, I don't want her to move back in too early. *But seems like a lot of people who already have kids, coexist in the same house while sorting things out, so maybe its not a big deal...*


I'll be honest...we have a 7 & 10 year old. For the first few months of working on reconciliation, they did not get the proper attention they probably should have. Oh, we fed them, clothed and loved them. But as far as attending to their every need, I sorrowfully admit they weren't always met.

It is a big deal, however not having a child to tend to would be better IMO. Although, prenatally, she is going to need to be mindful of the child inside. 

Either way, it ain't easy.


----------



## TornNBroken

SomedayDig said:


> I'll be honest...we have a 7 & 10 year old. For the first few months of working on reconciliation, they did not get the proper attention they probably should have. Oh, we fed them, clothed and loved them. But as far as attending to their every need, I sorrowfully admit they weren't always met.
> 
> It is a big deal, however not having a child to tend to would be better IMO. Although, prenatally, she is going to need to be mindful of the child inside.
> 
> Either way, it ain't easy.


And, if the child is mine, but I haven't fully made up my mind on whether to fully commit to R, I at least feel an obligation to have her move back in so that I can help take care of her and the baby. She's not in the best place right now emotionally, very stressed, and I know she would be doing better here at home. But what would I say then? "You can move back in, but I'm not committed to R yet?" That doesn't sound right.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> And, if the child is mine, but I haven't fully made up my mind on whether to fully commit to R, I at least feel an obligation to have her move back in so that I can help take care of her and the baby. She's not in the best place right now emotionally, very stressed, and I know she would be doing better here at home. But what would I say then? "You can move back in, but I'm not committed to R yet?" That doesn't sound right.


I know it doesn't sound right, but it's telling her the truth. It's honest and open communication. I'm telling ya...either she's gonna get it or she ain't. That will be her bag to carry.

You get to take your time deciding this. Essentially, she's along for the ride for the time being. YOU were the one betrayed. If you are willing to give it time to contemplate, then she is gonna have to respect that. Period.


----------



## TornNBroken

I guess it just seems like a blurry line to cross if I invite her back into the house but say I'm not ready to commit to R yet. Isn't inviting her back a step toward R, or even the first part of it? If I invite her back and then, what, just totally ignore her, but let live in the house anyways, what's the point? If she's here, we'll be talking, unlike we are doing now really. So wouldn't I be starting to R then? 

Maybe I'm being to technical here, I dunno.


----------



## SomedayDig

You might be overthinking it a bit, sure.

Dude. You just found out 2 weeks ago that your pregnant wife cheated on you. Sh-t is going to be blurry.

IF you invite her to move back in, you do so with CLEAR understandings of why. She's moving in so you can care for her and your unborn child (provided that is the case). Make it clear your motivations and ensure there is no blurriness in the arrangement.

I lived with my ex-wife after I caught her a second time having an affair. I had to cuz I had an apartment for over a year and couldn't afford it any longer. I stayed in one room and she stayed in another. I made a list - no phone calls to "him" while I was there. No having any "friend" over at the house on either party. No sex. No dinner. No TV time together.

How about also....maybe just wait til after you find out on Friday before making ANY kind of decision.


----------



## TornNBroken

SomedayDig said:


> You might be overthinking it a bit, sure.
> 
> Dude. You just found out 2 weeks ago that your pregnant wife cheated on you. Sh-t is going to be blurry.
> 
> IF you invite her to move back in, you do so with CLEAR understandings of why. She's moving in so you can care for her and your unborn child (provided that is the case). Make it clear your motivations and ensure there is no blurriness in the arrangement.
> 
> I lived with my ex-wife after I caught her a second time having an affair. I had to cuz I had an apartment for over a year and couldn't afford it any longer. I stayed in one room and she stayed in another. I made a list - no phone calls to "him" while I was there. No having any "friend" over at the house on either party. No sex. No dinner. No TV time together.
> 
> How about also....maybe just wait til after you find out on Friday before making ANY kind of decision.


Oh yeah, I plan to wait til I find out. She asked if we could have dinner tonight to talk, and i turned her down. But I just pray to God I find out by Friday. Don't know if I can wait any longer. But since I was already there, I had them draw a lipid panel out of curiosity, and they said it would take 2 days for results. Just found out today (8 business days later). They said 7-10 days on the paternity, so we'll see.


----------



## SomedayDig

Well, then Torn all you can do between now and then is breathe.

You have no other committment but that right now.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> That being said, I don't want her to move back in too early. *But seems like a lot of people who already have kids, coexist in the same house while sorting things out, so maybe its not a big deal..*.


Yeah, they coexist in the same house ... and it is really, really hard.


----------



## TornNBroken

I'm trying to. The waiting just sucks! I even got an email today from them, and ya know how you can see part of the email on your iphone before you actually open it? Well, I saw this "I apologize it has taken us so long getting this to you. All of your test results are ready,..."

And then as my BP starts to rise and I get short of breath, I open it to find "...except your paternity results."

Killed me.

But my STD and lipid results are ready. WOOHOO! (sigh)


----------



## carpenoctem

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

carpenoctem said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed Mr. Miyagi.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Hey Torn, I was thinking about you while going through my own situation. What I've come to understand is that my wife values security more than she values me or our relationship. I would say that this has become more true since we've had children. Ironically, she would have a better chance at security if she valued me and our relationship more than she does her security.

I bring this up because a woman who is pregnant places a very high value on security. She may not even realize this, it may be entirely instinctual. Your wife may say or do anything to achieve that security and I suspect she realizes you are the one that is best able to provide that. If she wasn't pregnant, would she have come forward with any of this? Just something to consider. If the child is yours and you let her back in the home to protect her, even without promise of reconciliation, and you see a renewed commitment on her part, consider that her motivation may not be the love she has for you or a real desire to change. Once she has achieved the security she needs, she may at some point in the future return back to this type of behavior. 

Just another thing to consider, whether or not you decide to reconcile.


----------



## TornNBroken

Thanks. I appreciate that. Definitely something to consider.


----------



## turnera

TornNBroken said:


> So is it not a 'decision' to have her move back in with me and start to R? I don't think anything productive is happening right now, and I think after I find out the paternity results, there's not a whole lot to wait for before deciding whether to try to R or not.


It's not a decision if you're already married, for her to be in the house. Unless you already know you can't stand to be around her. And you don't sound like that. Or unless she is still seeing OM; if so, no way in hayall she can stay in your home.

What I meant by waiting is you may think you want to R, but in 3 or 4 months, you may decide there's no way you can do this, and you may just leave. Or, if you go ahead and stay separated and file for divorce because that's what you think you know, in 6 months you may realize you were just being emotional, not rational. That's what I mean.


----------



## carpenoctem

Torn:

For your sake, I wish that child will turn out to be yours.

Then again, for your sake, I wish it will turn out not to be yours.


Please bear in mind that even if the child turns out to be yours, it is still ACCIDENTALLY yours.

Your sperms won a race with a team they should not have had to compete with, in the first place.

But I guess you will consider it a Providential sign, and step up, if the child is yours.

Lucky, that child.

Best of luck either way.


----------



## carpenoctem

SomedayDig said:


> Agreed Mr. Miyagi.





"an empty taxi drove up, and out came Mr X."

enjoyed the dig.


----------



## martyc47

TornNBroken said:


> *they slept together* twice, once before and once *after we found out about the baby*.


I apologize for not reading the whole thread (I manage to read some 200-400 page threads here but can't do it all the time), but this just doesn't make sense to me if the kid is yours.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

martyc47 said:


> I apologize for not reading the whole thread (I manage to read some 200-400 page threads here but can't do it all the time), but this just doesn't make sense to me if the kid is yours.


Yeah, I don't want to speak for Torn but my impression is that it doesn't make sense for a lot of people here.


----------



## Machiavelli

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Hey Torn, I was thinking about you while going through my own situation. What I've come to understand is that my wife values security more than she values me or our relationship. I would say that this has become more true since we've had children. Ironically, she would have a better chance at security if she valued me and our relationship more than she does her security.
> 
> I bring this up because a woman who is pregnant places a very high value on security. She may not even realize this, it may be entirely instinctual. Your wife may say or do anything to achieve that security and I suspect she realizes you are the one that is best able to provide that. If she wasn't pregnant, would she have come forward with any of this? Just something to consider. If the child is yours and you let her back in the home to protect her, even without promise of reconciliation, and you see a renewed commitment on her part, consider that her motivation may not be the love she has for you or a real desire to change. Once she has achieved the security she needs, she may at some point in the future return back to this type of behavior.
> 
> Just another thing to consider, whether or not you decide to reconcile.


The need for security, and a big tough guy to provide it, is the root of female hypergamy. It's also the root of the marriage contract: security for exclusive sex.


----------



## TornNBroken

I agree that the timing of the sex is odd. Like, if we got pregnant in the beginning of Feb (which is when the Dr. is saying it happened), isn't it a big coincidence that she had her first sexual encounter mid Feb? That's weird to me and seems like too much of a coincidence. Especially when she's saying there's no way its his, solely due to the timing of things...

However, I've uncovered deleted text and emails, I'm waiting on the results of a paternity test (which she doesn't seem the least bit worried about), and nothing that I've found seems to indicate that the timing of her affair is anything other than what she confessed to. I feel like she would be a lot more nervous, and a lot more reluctant to take the paternity test if she had been sleeping with him during the time frame that would make it a possibility that its not mine.


----------



## bfree

I think torn just needs some answers. This endless speculation has to be nerve wracking. At least you will have one indisputable fact on Friday...for better or worse.


----------



## carpenoctem

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Hey Torn, I was thinking about you while going through my own situation. *What I've come to understand is that my wife values security more than she values me or our relationship. I would say that this has become more true since we've had children. Ironically, she would have a better chance at security if she valued me and our relationship more than she does her security.*


QFT


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Machiavelli said:


> The need for security, and a big tough guy to provide it, is the root of female hypergamy. It's also the root of the marriage contract: security for exclusive sex.


My wife somehow forgot about the latter part of that marriage contract. Not just exclusive sex ... but sex period


----------



## martyc47

TornNBroken said:


> I agree that the timing of the sex is odd. Like, if we got pregnant in the beginning of Feb (which is when the Dr. is saying it happened), isn't it a big coincidence that she had her first sexual encounter mid Feb? That's weird to me and seems like too much of a coincidence. Especially when she's saying there's no way its his, solely due to the timing of things...


Well, the odd timing I was talking about was not when they started but that she had sex with him after supposedly knowing she was pregnant by you. You could be right about your suspicions, but women normally are driven to have sex with the father or the guy they WANT to be the father of the baby, even if things aren't going so hot.

I've put up with some crap, but I think that would be a point of no return for me, and I would be more hurt by that than it not being my child. If my wife was banging some dude with my kid inside her, I don't think would ever look at her again, and I'd pray (I'm atheist, btw) for a "You are not the father!" paternity result.


----------



## carpenoctem

TornNBroken said:


> I agree that the timing of the sex is odd. Like, if we got pregnant in the beginning of Feb (which is when the Dr. is saying it happened), isn't it a big coincidence that she had her first sexual encounter mid Feb? That's weird to me and seems like too much of a coincidence. Especially when she's saying there's no way its his, solely due to the timing of things...
> 
> However, I've uncovered deleted text and emails, I'm waiting on the results of a paternity test (which she doesn't seem the least bit worried about), and nothing that I've found seems to indicate that the timing of her affair is anything other than what she confessed to. I feel like she would be a lot more nervous, and a lot more reluctant to take the paternity test if she had been sleeping with him during the time frame that would make it a possibility that its not mine.




Torn, just going by the way life generally plays its games, one could wager that the child will be yours.

When a human shows the will to do the right / good thing even if it’s the harder choice, Providence usually pegs the weight heavier on the other side, testing him/her even more.

Or, if I were a believer, I would say God cares more about that child right now, than he/she does about you. So he/she might fiddle with the test.

I hope he/she does not.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

martyc47 said:


> Well, the odd timing I was talking about was not when they started but that she had sex with him after supposedly knowing she was pregnant by you. You could be right about your suspicions, but women normally are driven to have sex with the father or the guy they WANT to be the father of the baby, even if things aren't going so hot.
> 
> I've put up with some crap, but I think that would be a point of no return for me, and I would be more hurt by that than it not being my child. If my wife was banging some dude with my kid inside her, I don't think would ever look at her again, and I'd pray (I'm atheist, btw) for a "You are not the father!" paternity result.


Yep. That would KILL me. She had sex with this guy supposedly knowing she was pregnant with YOUR child. This whole situation churns my stomach. I don't know how you're able to keep any food down these days.


----------



## TornNBroken

Well, welcome to my world. Sadly, after the first couple days where I didn't really have any time to eat between the tears, I've had the opposite problem related to food. Just have been trying to find any thing that makes me feel good and distracts me (food, sports, TV in general, etc). I know I gotta break outta this and get back on a regular schedule, get to the gym, but its tough right now, and I love Pringles.


----------



## Machiavelli

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> My wife somehow forgot about the latter part of that marriage contract. Not just exclusive sex ... but sex period


A common problem.


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> I guess it just seems like a blurry line to cross if I invite her back into the house but say I'm not ready to commit to R yet. Isn't inviting her back a step toward R, or even the first part of it? If I invite her back and then, what, just totally ignore her, but let live in the house anyways, what's the point? If she's here, we'll be talking, unlike we are doing now really. So wouldn't I be starting to R then?
> 
> Maybe I'm being to technical here, I dunno.


Maybe say: move back in, I want to take care of you and the baby while we figure this out. I don't want us to drift further away simply because we are not in the same house. I can't make any promises about what's going to happen, but I want us to figure it out. I think the best we can do is be here together now and take it one day at a time.

Just a thought.


----------



## Wiserforit

martyc47 said:


> I apologize for not reading the whole thread (I manage to read some 200-400 page threads here but can't do it all the time), but this just doesn't make sense to me if the kid is yours.


Well that story went out the window about as fast as it was being told. 

The email from the OM saying he would raise the kid even if the father turned out to be the husband, and the wife hedging on the remote possibility that it could be the OM's kid - tell us what we need to know. 

Panic on her part brought this to a head. Pool boy had to be evauated from a provider perspective and our man Torn has him beat cold there.

Ending the affair secretly would be out of the question if there was any chance it was pool boy's child. Finding out after the birth would have been too catastrophic. 

So here we are.


----------



## thatbpguy

TornNBroken said:


> I guess it just seems like a blurry line to cross if I invite her back into the house but say I'm not ready to commit to R yet. Isn't inviting her back a step toward R, or even the first part of it? If I invite her back and then, what, just totally ignore her, but let live in the house anyways, what's the point? If she's here, we'll be talking, unlike we are doing now really. So wouldn't I be starting to R then?
> 
> Maybe I'm being to technical here, I dunno.


Just my thoughts coming in so late and I have only read the first and last few pages but my best thinking is a divorce. I mean, my gosh, she is either pregnant with your kid or the two of you are trying to get pregnant and she has some chump cumming in her for a couple of months??? Certainly tells you how much she values you as a husband/father. 

I could never put up with that.

And if you are the father, then get max visitation and be the best parent you can be.


----------



## PieceOfSky

TornNBroken said:


> Well, welcome to my world. Sadly, after the first couple days where I didn't really have any time to eat between the tears, I've had the opposite problem related to food. Just have been trying to find any thing that makes me feel good and distracts me (food, sports, TV in general, etc). I know I gotta break outta this and get back on a regular schedule, get to the gym, but its tough right now, and I love Pringles.


Too bad some of the folks here don't know you IRL. Surely by now to relieve stress we would have hauled your *** out to the gym, or the bar, or the gym and then the bar, or, perhaps in my case Dunkin Donuts.


----------



## tom67

PieceOfSky said:


> Too bad some of the folks here don't know you IRL. Surely by now to relieve stress we would have hauled your *** out to the gym, or the bar, or the gym and then the bar, or, perhaps in my case Dunkin Donuts.


You can throw all 3 in if motivated.


----------



## TornNBroken

Read the "Surviving Her Affair" book dig. Thanks for the recommendation. It showed me that even though my wife's affair may have been one of the more severe ones, considering the multiple guys and the pregnancy, she really is in a good place right now as far as willingness to R and the effort and remorse that she has shown thus far.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> Read the "Surviving Her Affair" book dig. Thanks for the recommendation. It showed me that even though my wife's affair may have been one of the more severe ones, considering the multiple guys and the pregnancy, she really is in a good place right now as far as willingness to R and the effort and remorse that she has shown thus far.


I'm glad that helped out, Torn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

TornNBroken said:


> And, if the child is mine, but I haven't fully made up my mind on whether to fully commit to R, I at least feel an obligation to have her move back in so that I can help take care of her and the baby. She's not in the best place right now emotionally, very stressed, and I know she would be doing better here at home. But what would I say then? "You can move back in, but I'm not committed to R yet?" That doesn't sound right.


Tell her you will work on R together. Working does not imply that it will definitely be successful.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> Read the "Surviving Her Affair" book dig. Thanks for the recommendation. It showed me that even though my wife's affair may have been one of the more severe ones, considering the multiple guys and the pregnancy, she really is in a good place right now as far as willingness to R and the effort and remorse that she has shown thus far.


Also, since it is a quick/easy read...make sure you go back and re-read some of the stuff. It really helps me when I feel stuck on a particular part. If anything, make sure you re-read the chapter "How to Start Feeling Better" a few times. It's only 10 or so pages and the parts about "there is no magic pill" and "respecting your body" are a big part in YOUR recovery.


----------



## JCD

Paternity tests take a while. Don't expect them tomorrow. There are frequent backlogs and sometimes tests get bumped to the front.

So hopefully you won't get disappointed if they don't come tomorrow...though I know I'm on pins and needles as well.


----------



## Soifon

Keep in mind that while you say she isn't nervous about the paternity result, that is only her outward demeanor that she wants you to see. I have felt that from the beginning of this the only reason she came forward about the affair was that she is unsure of who the father is. 

Her fessing up to it before the baby gets there is all about timing. She knows that she cannot keep this going forever, especially with the OM so adamant about being involved. He seems like he will push exposing once the baby is born to see if it's his and she wanted to head him off way before it go to that stage. Also, her letting it all out now protects her from some of the backlash because she is pregnant.


----------



## bfree

Soifon said:


> Keep in mind that while you say she isn't nervous about the paternity result, that is only her outward demeanor that she wants you to see. I have felt that from the beginning of this the only reason she came forward about the affair was that she is unsure of who the father is.
> 
> Her fessing up to it before the baby gets there is all about timing. She knows that she cannot keep this going forever, especially with the OM so adamant about being involved. He seems like he will push exposing once the baby is born to see if it's his and she wanted to head him off way before it go to that stage. *Also, her letting it all out now protects her from some of the backlash because she is pregnant*.


I hope this isn't the case. That would be extremely cold and calculating.


----------



## Shaggy

So what about the future is you do offer R? What is she going to do to never ever cheat again, and to prove to you that she isn't cheating down the road?

Clearly she had immense freedom and time to meet and meet up with men. Time and freedom where she could keep many secrets and where she felt safe to cheat.

Obviously her word isn't enough, she said in her vows that she would be faithful. That didn't slow her down, so words and vows are meaningless.

Morals don't come into it either. Her morals didn't prevent her one bit either.

So what is she offering you?


----------



## LongWalk

Torn, many BS have trouble with mind movies of the past. Do you have mind movies of the future? Do you see your wife going through labor alone. Do you see her leaving hospital by herself to be a single mother?

Will she deliver in hospital where you work?

Is she planning on getting child support from the other OM if the baby is not yours?


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## JCD

What could she offer which will act as assurance? Any R is an exercise of Hope over History.

The only difference is the pain she has had to experience to possibly teach her the error of her ways.

Now...she is an imperfect 'good' Christian woman who is about to be divorced with a bastard in her stomach. OR...she gets to publicly D her husband and 'marry up' to a maasuer. I'm sure that will go over swimmingly at the bible study!

So this is probably pretty stressful to her. But I would still tell her parents, just to be sure.

Which brings up my next question: if she is living with them, what has she told them?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> What could she offer which will act as assurance? Any R is an exercise of Hope over History.
> 
> Very true.
> 
> 
> *Which brings up my next question: if she is living with them, what has she told them?*_Posted via Mobile Device_


Good question.


----------



## slater

Torn I can only imagine what you ae going through waiting on the test results. I don't even know you but I am anxious. I hope they come in tomorrow for your sake.

Best of luck my friend.


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## jim123

Torn,

Good luck tomorrow.


----------



## TornNBroken

JCD said:


> Which brings up my next question: if she is living with them, what has she told them?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's not. She's staying with an old GF.

And I'm highly doubting that I'll get results tomorrow. I called today to check in with the lab to see if they had any news and was told results take 10-14 days! Which is BS cause my wife got a paper that said roughly 7 business days when she went in, and I was told 7-10 business days. The lady said we should probably get them Monday, but I don't think she knows anything, so I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## tom67

TornNBroken said:


> She's not. She's staying with an old GF.
> 
> And I'm highly doubting that I'll get results tomorrow. I called today to check in with the lab to see if they had any news and was told results take 10-14 days! Which is BS cause my wife got a paper that said roughly 7 business days when she went in, and I was told 7-10 business days. The lady said we should probably get them Monday, but I don't think she knows anything, so I'm not holding my breath.


Ugh! Farking living hEll.


----------



## JCD

TornNBroken said:


> She's not. She's staying with an old GF.
> 
> And I'm highly doubting that I'll get results tomorrow. I called today to check in with the lab to see if they had any news and was told results take 10-14 days! Which is BS cause my wife got a paper that said roughly 7 business days when she went in, and I was told 7-10 business days. The lady said we should probably get them Monday, but I don't think she knows anything, so I'm not holding my breath.


Crime labs generally wait that long,so you aren't doing too badly. That CSI bull pucky you see with same day DNA tests is horse hockey.


So...do her parents KNOW she is staying with the GF. How aware is the family of your situation or are you still bending over backwards to keep this quiet?

For that matter, and this is a delicate question, are you doing more than using trust to know she is NC? I know she is a blubbering wreck now, but the folks here have seen folks like that, men and women, who turned around and were bad again.

She shouldn't feel under observation, but if there was a way to keep an eye on her...


----------



## TornNBroken

JCD said:


> Crime labs generally wait that long,so you aren't doing too badly. That CSI bull pucky you see with same day DNA tests is horse hockey.
> 
> 
> So...do her parents KNOW she is staying with the GF. How aware is the family of your situation or are you still bending over backwards to keep this quiet?
> 
> For that matter, and this is a delicate question, are you doing more than using trust to know she is NC? I know she is a blubbering wreck now, but the folks here have seen folks like that, men and women, who turned around and were bad again.
> 
> She shouldn't feel under observation, but if there was a way to keep an eye on her...


We haven't told anyone we know except for this old GF of hers. She's my friend too technically I guess (she's the sister of my BF from highschool). But that's it. Many people have stated that exposure is necessary to STOP an affair. I have as close to zero doubt that she is having any contact with him that I can have right now. I have access to her emails, FB, etc. She knows that I've tracked down emails that she's deleted "permanently" out of her trash folder, and that I've found texts that were deleted. I've never told her how I've found out any of the info, and I think she basically knows that she can't hide much from me. I suppose she could be seeing him in person, as I don't have a GPS on her car or phone, but I just doubt it.

I see exposing this to family and/or friends as nothing but harmful. I'm open to be proven wrong, but I just don't see the benefit in exposing her to intense shame (moreso than what she is already experiencing), exposing me to embarrassment/being viewed as a sucker for taking her back (if I do), and causing irreparable damage to how my family and friends would view her down the road. And for what benefit? I don't see much...


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Just found out...need advice *



TornNBroken said:


> We haven't told anyone we know except for this old GF of hers. She's my friend too technically I guess (she's the sister of my BF from highschool). But that's it. Many people have stated that exposure is necessary to STOP an affair. I have as close to zero doubt that she is having any contact with him that I can have right now. I have access to her emails, FB, etc. She knows that I've tracked down emails that she's deleted "permanently" out of her trash folder, and that I've found texts that were deleted. I've never told her how I've found out any of the info, and I think she basically knows that she can't hide much from me. I suppose she could be seeing him in person, as I don't have a GPS on her car or phone, but I just doubt it.
> 
> I see exposing this to family and/or friends as nothing but harmful. I'm open to be proven wrong, but I just don't see the benefit in exposing her to intense shame (moreso than what she is already experiencing), exposing me to embarrassment/being viewed as a sucker for taking her back (if I do), and causing irreparable damage to how my family and friends would view her down the road. And for what benefit? I don't see much...


The largest benefit I can think of is to have other people who have some influence over her to reinforce more moral behavior in the future. I know you love her and only want to think good things about her but the fact is that she already has demonstrated that she can make poor choices. You will need to enforce appropriate behavior in the future but you don't have to do it alone. By exposing the affair to family and friends others can also reinforce how damaging this was and help guide her going forward to stay on a positive path.


----------



## TornNBroken

bfree said:


> The largest benefit I can think of is to have other people who have some influence over her to reinforce more moral behavior in the future. I know you love her and only want to think good things about her but the fact is that she already has demonstrated that she can make poor choices. You will need to enforce appropriate behavior in the future but you don't have to do it alone. By exposing the affair to family and friends others can also reinforce how damaging this was and help guide her going forward to stay on a positive path.


She knows that she absolutely DEVASTATED me by doing these things. I think she has had the epitome of a 'wake up call.' She knows full well that if I do take her back and she has even one slip up, it'll be over before she can even apologize. I don't see that much added benefit that can be provided by other people keeping her in line somehow. If she needs 100 babysitters watching her every move to not cheat again, then she's probably not worth staying with IMO. If after seeing the intense pain that she has cause me and after feeling the REAL possibility of losing me completely, she still cheats, then she's beyond hope. 

Yeah, maybe she could get a little bit of extra advice, or have someone be checking in with her to see how she's doing, but I just don't see the value in that coming anywhere near worth it to open her up to that much shame..."Hey Torn's Mom, just FYI, I slept with another man while pregnant with your son's child." 

Yeah.....that's gonna do wonders for family relations.

Sorry, just don't see it as worth it.


----------



## Almostrecovered

TornNBroken said:


> We haven't told anyone we know except for this old GF of hers. She's my friend too technically I guess (she's the sister of my BF from highschool). But that's it. Many people have stated that exposure is necessary to STOP an affair. I have as close to zero doubt that she is having any contact with him that I can have right now. I have access to her emails, FB, etc. She knows that I've tracked down emails that she's deleted "permanently" out of her trash folder, and that I've found texts that were deleted. I've never told her how I've found out any of the info, and I think she basically knows that she can't hide much from me. I suppose she could be seeing him in person, as I don't have a GPS on her car or phone, but I just doubt it.
> 
> I see exposing this to family and/or friends as nothing but harmful. I'm open to be proven wrong, but I just don't see the benefit in exposing her to intense shame (moreso than what she is already experiencing), exposing me to embarrassment/being viewed as a sucker for taking her back (if I do), and causing irreparable damage to how my family and friends would view her down the road. And for what benefit? I don't see much...


aside from destroying the affair, exposure will also aid in giving consequence to your WW. 

However, I get your situation and understand if you wish to wait until you learn of the results. Until you get all of your information I can understand why you would wait. But do know that If the kid isn't yours, the exposure will be 100% necessary so people know why you're leaving a pregnant woman.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> We haven't told anyone we know except for this old GF of hers. She's my friend too technically I guess (she's the sister of my BF from highschool). But that's it. Many people have stated that exposure is necessary to STOP an affair. I have as close to zero doubt that she is having any contact with him that I can have right now. I have access to her emails, FB, etc. She knows that I've tracked down emails that she's deleted "permanently" out of her trash folder, and that I've found texts that were deleted. I've never told her how I've found out any of the info, and I think she basically knows that she can't hide much from me. I suppose she could be seeing him in person, as I don't have a GPS on her car or phone, but I just doubt it.
> 
> I see exposing this to family and/or friends as nothing but harmful. I'm open to be proven wrong, but I just don't see the benefit in exposing her to intense shame (moreso than what she is already experiencing), exposing me to embarrassment/being viewed as a sucker for taking her back (if I do), and causing irreparable damage to how my family and friends would view her down the road. And for what benefit? I don't see much...


Never discount ways that they could talk to and see each other. Where there's a will, there's a way, especially with technology today. Burner phone. Using someone else's phone. Apps that leave no trace and can be deleted and reinstalled easily. And as you stated, face to face.

Given what you posted and how deep your wife seemed to be emotionally invested, and vice versa, your wife would be in the small minority without ANY contact attempted by EITHER of the affair. Lack of a fishing attempt on his part alone is very fishy. Even if he tried in person, she may be unlikely to tell you because she feels you are so close to dropping her and she thinks any additional problems and you will walk and say it's too much work and not worth the effort.

If you reconcile with her, you should install VAR and GPS early on so if she is continuing to talk to him and see him.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> She knows that she absolutely DEVASTATED me by doing these things. I think she has had the epitome of a 'wake up call.' She knows full well that if I do take her back and she has even one slip up, it'll be over before she can even apologize. I don't see that much added benefit that can be provided by other people keeping her in line somehow. If she needs 100 babysitters watching her every move to not cheat again, then she's probably not worth staying with IMO. If after seeing the intense pain that she has cause me and after feeling the REAL possibility of losing me completely, she still cheats, then she's beyond hope.
> 
> Yeah, maybe she could get a little bit of extra advice, or have someone be checking in with her to see how she's doing, but I just don't see the value in that coming anywhere near worth it to open her up to that much shame..."Hey Torn's Mom, just FYI, I slept with another man while pregnant with your son's child."
> 
> Yeah.....that's gonna do wonders for family relations.
> 
> Sorry, just don't see it as worth it.


If affair is truly over, exposure might not be necessary. Any evidence it is continuing, or you decide not to reconcile for whatever reason, there is no need to keep it a secret.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I've always broken down exposure to this line of thinking-


OWH or OMW- always
friends and family- most of the time
work- conditional on many factors

I didn't do a wide exposure at all and still got remorse and successful R. But do know that fear of exposure shouldn't be linked to your own shame because YOU have NOTHING to be ashamed of.


----------



## SomedayDig

Exposure. Tough one to deal with. I can only speak of my own example. When I had my Dday last year, Regret told her sister and we told our "friends" cuz they all know the xOM. We did NOT tell her parents. My Ma died years ago and I don't really have family that I'm close to so no one in my family. She did tell her parents a couple months later that all of the times that she blamed me for things - it was all her fault. I'm sure they sensed something was amuck, but we didn't tell them details. She finally came out and told them in July (Dday was March 6th) because she felt it was the right thing to do. I didn't prompt or ask her to do it - she just did it.

I can understand 100% nuclear exposure when the affair is active and the spouse is totally in the fog and can't see reality.

In your case, I honestly don't see it as absolutely necessary right now.


----------



## TornNBroken

I would obviously expose it if we were going to D, but I don't know if the added 'consequence' as you put it, would be of much benefit during a R. How much consequence is enough? Is her being exposed to me enough? If not, then maybe I expose to just her parents....is that enough? If not, then my family...then our friends...co-workers, so they can keep an eye on her?

See my point???

At what point do the consequences become detrimental? I'm sure even the strong advocates of exposure can understand how telling family and friends about what she's done would cause a lot of additional stress and pain and ongoing angst and awkwardness (not just for her, but for all parties involved). She's already dealing with me not being the biggest fan of her, and I'm supposed to make EVERYONE disgusted with her?


----------



## Almostrecovered

TornNBroken said:


> I would obviously expose it if we were going to D, but I don't know if the added 'consequence' as you put it, would be of much benefit. How much consequence is enough? Is her being exposed to me enough? If not, then maybe I expose to just her parents....is that enough? If not, then my family...then our friends...co-workers, so they can keep an eye on her?
> 
> See my point???
> 
> At what point do the consequences become detrimental? I'm sure even the strong advocates of exposure can understand how telling family and friends about what she's done would cause a lot of additional stress and pain and ongoing angst and awkwardness (not just for her, but for all parties involved). She's already dealing with me not being the biggest fan of her, and I'm supposed to make EVERYONE disgusted with her?


I get it, I really do 
and to be honest the fact that she is in her own stasis of limbo while she waits on your decision may also be enough consequence. There are no straight forward answers.


----------



## JCD

Personally, I think your second point, that of personal embarrassment is foremost on your mind. It is humiliating to think you choose someone that stupid

With the ego in mind, I suggested telling either the moms OR her parents.

Why? She's in a very bad place.

Second, she's used to disappointing you. If she slips again, she Ds you, moves cities and is a born again virgin of sorts. All her sins are washed away by anonymity. She doesn't get that 'safe place' if HER parents know, unless they are going to cut THEM out of her life.

Because of your peculiar circumstance regarding parentage, I'd wait until you establish paternity. If it's a bastard, everyone is going to know anyway.

(As an aside, I hope YOU are getting the results. I would suggest you make sure she is with her parents if the results are bad as she will be going through a lot of grief and will need support and someone to watch to see she doesn't do something stupid and irrevocable. If it is GOOD news...I'd do the same because)

Even if it's good news, and you are both committed to R, I'd tell her folks anyway. She's less likely to do this again if she has to face some painful consequences. Perhaps you think you disapproval is enough.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it wasn't enough to keep her from screwing around the first *THREE* times.

As a sop to the ego and to protect her reputation some, I would give them an abbreviated version of events, mentioning only the latest session and keeping the details fuzzy.


OR...if you don't like that, I have another suggestion. Have her write out a letter outlining her infidelities with names, places and details. She signs it, has it notarized (with the notary ONLY witnessing the signature) and give it to you for safe keeping.

You can decide if you want to reveal if she strays again.

But do you really want a wife by blackmail?

I'd do it...but more for potential revenge then blackmail. And you already have enough info to blackmail anyway. But I'm not a good person.


----------



## TornNBroken

JCD said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it, but it wasn't enough to keep her from screwing around the first *THREE* times.


I think she was in her little fantasy world and obviously not truly realizing what the consequences might be. She has told me repeatedly that she was shocked at exactly how hurt I was. Not that she thought I would be cool with it, but just the extent to which I was effected when I found out. Her mindset before I found out and going forward are obviously different.


----------



## Almostrecovered

one more thing to consider is if a WW is truly remorseful, that exposure does actually give them a way to demonstrate that remorse in a observable fashion in the way that they handle the exposure

that would certainly help in your decision making if you see her handling the exposure in a manner that demonstrates accepting the blame and responsibility for the affair or she simply blameshifts and gaslights to everyone


----------



## TornNBroken

She's already told me that she's willing, despite how painful it would be for her, to tell whoever I feel the need to tell. She even asked me out of the blue if I wanted her to confess to my brother and his wife so I could have someone to talk with because she was concerned that I was concerned.


----------



## MrQuatto

Almostrecovered said:


> aside from destroying the affair, exposure will also aid in giving consequence to your WW.
> 
> However, I get your situation and understand if you wish to wait until you learn of the results. Until you get all of your information I can understand why you would wait. But do know that If the kid isn't yours, the exposure will be 100% necessary so people know why you're leaving a pregnant woman.


One other reason to expose is in case of divorce. We all have heard the stories of the abusive, controlling or ignoring spouse that led to a divorce. Many times it is the one who tells th story 1st that is believed by friends, family and the like. 

These boards are full of folks who did not expose and were painted as a terrible person by their wayward when papers were filed. Exposure protects your reputation and does let you know, good or bad, who you can trust in your friends and family. I have also seen many here who want it to just end as quick and easy as possible. They can't imagine that their spouse would negotiate with them, then turn nasty at the last minute but, again, this board has its fair share of those stories as well. 

Ultimately all the choices are yours to make, stay or go, D or R, exposé or secret, I'm just mentioning what I have seen.

Q~


----------



## Almostrecovered

TornNBroken said:


> She's already told me that she's willing, despite how painful it would be for her, to tell whoever I feel the need to tell. She even asked me out of the blue if I wanted her to confess to my brother and his wife so I could have someone to talk with because she was concerned that I was concerned.


you should take her up on that offer

TAM is great and all but real life support is always important


----------



## SomedayDig

Almostrecovered said:


> you should take her up on that offer
> 
> TAM is great and all but real life support is always important


I couldn't have said it any better.


----------



## TornNBroken

MrQuatto said:


> One other reason to expose is in case of divorce. We all have heard the stories of the abusive, controlling or ignoring spouse that led to a divorce. Many times it is the one who tells th story 1st that is believed by friends, family and the like.
> 
> These boards are full of folks who did not expose and were painted as a terrible person by their wayward when papers were filed. Exposure protects your reputation and does let you know, good or bad, who you can trust in your friends and family.
> 
> Ultimately all he choices are yours to make, stay or go, D or R, exposé or secret, I'm just mentioning what I have seen.
> 
> Q~


Thanks, though I have all the evidence I need if that scenario ever played itself out.


----------



## bestblu1

Personally, I don't see a benefit to telling others about your wife's cheating as long as she is showing clear signs of remorse. If she were defiant and still trying to hide and deny it may be helpful in getting her to stop, but it sounds like your wife (at least from your perspective) is sorry for what she did. Especially since she came to you with the confession and was not caught. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## warlock07

Telling parents from both sides should be a minimum. It will atleast add some accountability to her actions. her parents will also be her safe place when things get hard in R


----------



## warlock07

And you don't want her staying with you only because she is scared what you will expose to her family.


----------



## TornNBroken

warlock07 said:


> Telling parents from both sides should be a minimum. It will atleast add some accountability to her actions. her parents will also be her safe place when things get hard in R


What you say SOUNDS like it makes sense, but when I think about it, I'm not getting what makes sense about it. How, specifically, does her parents knowing she cheated make her more accountable for her future actions? Her parents aren't going to be checking her phone or email. I'm sure it would be awkward for them to be like "Hey, are cheating at all lately?"

What specifically could they be doing to keep her more accountable than she already will be to me?

I guess I'm saying that it'd be much easier to hide any future deception from her parents than from me...


----------



## TornNBroken

warlock07 said:


> And you don't want her staying with you only because she is scared what you will expose to her family.


Now that makes a little bit of sense, but I don't think that's the case at all. Don't get me wrong, she's not DYING to tell everyone how bad she fvcked up, but she's totally willing to do it. I'm probably more against it than she is over all, even though we both don't really want to do it.


----------



## Hicks

Is she in counseling yet?
Exposure is not the answer for this situation...


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## TornNBroken

Hicks said:


> Is she in counseling yet?
> Exposure is not the answer for this situation...


She's started getting counseling when she started seeing this guy in Feb, because she said that she was so shocked that she would do something like this again after dealing with all the guilt she had for the 2 years following her ONS in FL. I DO find it kinda ****ty that she kept seeing him even WITH current IC, makes me wonder what kind of a therapist she's seeing. If we try and R, MC is a must, and maybe a new IC.

That brings up a question I've been meaning to ask. When couples do both MC and IC, is it kinda standard to have the same person do all the counseling?


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> She's started getting counseling when she started seeing this guy in Feb, because she said that she was so shocked that she would do something like this again after dealing with all the guilt she had for the 2 years following her ONS in FL. I DO find it kinda ****ty that she kept seeing him even WITH current IC, makes me wonder what kind of a therapist she's seeing. If we try and R, MC is a must, and maybe a new IC.
> 
> That brings up a question I've been meaning to ask. *When couples do both MC and IC, is it kinda standard to have the same person do all the counseling*?


Nope. Because think of it this way...the IC is there for the individual only. They care only for their client. The MC is there for the marriage - both of you. Ya can't have the same person. The same practice maybe if you want to allow the counselors to talk...but the same person for everything, no.


----------



## JCD

TornNBroken said:


> What you say SOUNDS like it makes sense, but when I think about it, I'm not getting what makes sense about it. How, specifically, does her parents knowing she cheated make her more accountable for her future actions? Her parents aren't going to be checking her phone or email. I'm sure it would be awkward for them to be like "Hey, are cheating at all lately?"
> 
> What specifically could they be doing to keep her more accountable than she already will be to me?
> 
> I guess I'm saying that it'd be much easier to hide any future deception from her parents than from me...


Let me clarify how I see what Warlock is saying.

You two R. At some point,all this pressure you are bottling in explodes and you say some nasty but true things. You really hurt her feelings. It happens.

This happens several months into R. So she, thinking that you should be over all of this, is shocked and devastated. She goes running to mummy and daddy saying what a big meanie you are. Why aren't you over this yet?

Scenario 1: No exposure. Huge family rift as sides are taken, and FIL comes and has a 'man to man' with you about the care of little girls. Not a fight, but a sanctimonious lecture about marriage. Because you are in self imposed silence, you need to grind your teeth as he goes on and on...and she gets validation for how she feels because only half the story is out there.

Scenario 2: Exposure

"Oh daddy, he said the most mean and hateful things to me."

"You expect him to get over this overnight? I don't doubt he said something pretty grim, but them's just words. You did actions. So you get home, you cook him a nice meal and you bite your tongue." 

See...she gets a second opinion she respects telling her to adjust her expectations or even for comfort.

And if you DO get out of line, they can call you on that too.

Right now the both of you are locked in a conspiracy of silence, unable to seek any advice comfort and solace from anyone save Jesus. And the GF? NOT your friend. HER friend. Maybe she gives good advice...and maybe not. SHE is dedicated to being liked and a friend to your wife. The parents are dedicated to THE MARRIAGE.

Think hard on this. There are no perfect answers. But don't let ego or shame get in the way of doing something necessary either.


----------



## SomedayDig

Oh...and make sure that ALL of the counselors are versed in Marriage/Infidelity issues. From experience I can tell you that an uninformed MC has the ability to totally f-ck up the process. Our first MC actually got pissed at me when I talked about contacting the xOM's wife to tell her about the affair.

Her: What? Did you do that just to stick it to him.
Me: Ummm...you're f'ng A right I did. He'd been sticking it to my wife for five years!
Her: (stupified look)
Me: Well, thanks - see ya.

It is imperative to make sure your counselors are properly credentialled.


----------



## TornNBroken

SomedayDig said:


> Nope. Because think of it this way...the IC is there for the individual only. They care only for their client. The MC is there for the marriage - both of you. Ya can't have the same person. The same practice maybe if you want to allow the counselors to talk...but the same person for everything, no.


Well, assuming we try to R, should I demand a new counselor for her IC? I'm just really thinking about this for the first time, and I think its kinda fvcked up that she was seeing the counselor for 2 months (she might have even been seeing him before the PA started) and things still progressed the way they did. I'd think as a counselor, if my client tells me "Hey, I cheated in the past and now I've been talking to this massage therapist for a few months and things are getting to be more than just friends," the counselor should push for her to come clean to me immediately, right?

Guess I have a new round of questions for her to find out what was discussed in her counseling sessions while the A was going on.


----------



## TornNBroken

SomedayDig said:


> Oh...and make sure that ALL of the counselors are versed in Marriage/Infidelity issues. From experience I can tell you that an uninformed MC has the ability to totally f-ck up the process. Our first MC actually got pissed at me when I talked about contacting the xOM's wife to tell her about the affair.
> 
> Her: What? Did you do that just to stick it to him.
> Me: Ummm...you're f'ng A right I did. He'd been sticking it to my wife for five years!
> Her: (stupified look)
> Me: Well, thanks - see ya.
> 
> It is imperative to make sure your counselors are properly credentialled.


So is there a specific credential I should look for/ask for, or just a general, "do you deal with infidelity and recovery?"


Edit: I guess you did say to ask for credentials...so what are these credentials called? Certified Infidelity Specialist? : )


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## SomedayDig

I think she definitely needs a new IC, for one big reason. I would almost guarantee that she never told the IC about the affairs. In other words - that "relationship" with the IC is muddied and simply won't work. Going by your possible observation - yes, she well COULD have told the IC, however the IC only caring about the client 90% of the time will say to NOT admit to an affair.

Yeah - you're gonna want to ask her about her sessions and what she did admit to or even bring up. Remember, at this point IF you try reconciliation...it's not about blaming or finger pointing. It's about information. It's about truly understanding who your wife was and is. It's getting the big picture and taking the red pill. There's no going back.


----------



## bfree

TornNBroken said:


> What you say SOUNDS like it makes sense, but when I think about it, I'm not getting what makes sense about it. How, specifically, does her parents knowing she cheated make her more accountable for her future actions? Her parents aren't going to be checking her phone or email. I'm sure it would be awkward for them to be like "Hey, are cheating at all lately?"
> 
> What specifically could they be doing to keep her more accountable than she already will be to me?
> 
> I guess I'm saying that it'd be much easier to hide any future *deception* from her parents than from me...


Torn, look at that word I highlighted.

DECEPTION!!!

Deception is what allowed her to hurt you. Deception is why you are waiting on paternity results. Deception is evil. And you are thinking of choosing to deceive your families? You ask how does exposure help the situation. I ask you how does lying and covering up such an important factor in your relationship help the situation?


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## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> So is there a specific credential I should look for/ask for, or just a general, "do you deal with infidelity and recovery?"
> 
> 
> Edit: I guess you did say to ask for credentials...so what are these credentials called? Certified Infidelity Specialist? : )


Well, for us I asked the MC/IC if they had previous experience in infidelity. Most often they would say they had attended _____ certification seminars/classes. Our MC was certified through Michelle Weiner Davis of the Divorce Busting books. I don't think there's like any real certification or credentials per se...however there is a ton of focused training one can do.


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## Shaggy

If you try R, then I strongly suggest you explore a postnuptial that she gets no alimony if she cheats again, but structure it do you don't need to catch her on film doing him, but instead weaker circumstantial proof would be enough.

Have it include 50-50 on the child and no child support from you to her since you are splitting things.


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## TornNBroken

bfree said:


> Torn, look at that word I highlighted.
> 
> DECEPTION!!!
> 
> Deception is what allowed her to hurt you. Deception is why you are waiting on paternity results. Deception is evil. And you are thinking of choosing to deceive your families? You ask how does exposure help the situation. I ask you how does lying and covering up such an important factor in your relationship help the situation?


Do you tell your parents about every intimate, hurtful, personal, thing that happens with your spouse? If your wife (I'm assuming your a guy for arguments sake) did something really hurtful to you and you were trying to get over it, and it wasn't an infidelity thing, just some other hurtful act, would you necessarily tell her parents about how she hurt you? 

I've already stated that I think telling her parents would do much more harm than good. I can understand that there could be some benefits, but I just don't see how those benefits would possible outweigh the negatives.

And to reiterate, just because you don't tell your family about the personal details/issues/problems with your marriage doesn't mean that you are lying to them.


----------



## JCD

TornNBroken said:


> Do you tell your parents about every intimate, hurtful, personal, thing that happens with your spouse? If your wife (I'm assuming your a guy for arguments sake) did something really hurtful to you and you were trying to get over it, and it wasn't an infidelity thing, just some other hurtful act, would you necessarily tell her parents about how she hurt you?


Are you REALLY characterizing this as 'just another fight' or hurtful conversation?

And no, not telling your family is not a lie of 'commission it it might be a lie of 'omission'.

This will hang around both of your necks like Longfellow's Albatross


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## TornNBroken

JCD said:


> Are you REALLY characterizing this as 'just another fight' or hurtful conversation?


lol. I knew that was coming after I posted that, but I was just trying to make a point.


----------



## TornNBroken

JCD said:


> This will hang around both of your necks like Longfellow's Albatross


So is it your opinion that you can't recover from any affair unless you tell your family about it? If so, how many family members is enough?


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## bfree

TornNBroken said:


> Do you tell your parents about every intimate, hurtful, personal, thing that happens with your spouse? If your wife (I'm assuming your a guy for arguments sake) did something really hurtful to you and you were trying to get over it, and it wasn't an infidelity thing, just some other hurtful act, would you necessarily tell her parents about how she hurt you?
> 
> I've already stated that I think telling her parents would do much more harm than good. I can understand that there could be some benefits, but I just don't see how those benefits would possible outweigh the negatives.
> 
> And to reiterate, just because you don't tell your family about the personal details/issues/problems with your marriage doesn't mean that you are lying to them.


This WILL eventually come out. A slip of the tongue or something. It WILL eventually come out. It always does. If I were your father and something like this that could have affected my grandchild was kept from me I would be furious. What if she cheats again or something else happens. You brought this woman into my house, I treated her like family all the while she cheated on my son! I would be beyond pissed off at you for hiding this. They are already involved. They just don't know it yet.

To answer your question yes. My parents know every major event that has happened in our lives...good and bad. I have too much respect for them to not tell them.

Edit: Just to add, you not telling them is exactly what your wife did by not immediately telling you. How did that feel when you found out? You're thinking like a cheater.


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## TornNBroken

bfree said:


> This WILL eventually come out. A slip of the tongue or something. It WILL eventually come out. It always does. If I were your father and something like this that could have affected my grandchild was kept from me I would be furious. What if she cheats again or something else happens. You brought this woman into my house,* I treated her like family* all the while she cheated on my son! I would be beyond pissed off at you for hiding this. They are already involved. They just don't know it yet.
> 
> To answer your question yes. My parents know every major event that has happened in our lives...good and bad. I have too much respect for them to not tell them.


So you would treat her differently had you known about the A?


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## bfree

TornNBroken said:


> So is it your opinion that you can't recover from any affair unless you tell your family about it? If so, how many family members is enough?


Is it your opinion that you can build a relationship on a foundation of secrecy and deception?


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## TornNBroken

bfree said:


> Edit: Just to add, you not telling them is exactly what your wife did by not immediately telling you. How did that feel when you found out? You're thinking like a cheater.


I'm sorry, but this is not all the same as my wife hiding her A. I have EVERY right to know about what my wife is doing in regards to any EA or PA or even any leanings towards those things. My parents dont have any RIGHT to know about what goes on in my marriage. I tell them what I want to tell them, and there are plenty of things I don't tell them. That's my prerogative. You want to tell your parents every good and bad thing about your marriage, that's fine, but there's no obligation there like there is between a wife and husband.


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## bfree

TornNBroken said:


> So you would treat her differently had you known about the A?


I would be able to work on forgiveness and eventually things would normalize. But if I found out I was lied to things would never be the same. How's that working out for you by the way...recovering from lies? Why would you wish that on your parents or hers? Or are you of the opinion that what they don't know won't hurt them. That is cheaterspeak.


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## bfree

TornNBroken said:


> I'm sorry, but this is not all the same as my wife hiding her A. I have EVERY right to know about what my wife is doing in regards to any EA or PA or even any leanings towards those things. My parents dont have any RIGHT to know about what goes on in my marriage. I tell them what I want to tell them, and there are plenty of things I don't tell them. That's my prerogative. You want to tell your parents every good and bad thing about your marriage, that's fine, but there's no obligation there like there is between a wife and husband.


Even if it affects their (potential) grandchild?


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## TornNBroken

bfree said:


> Is it your opinion that you can build a relationship on a foundation of secrecy and deception?


I'm not trying to rebuild a relationship with my father and mother in law. I'm trying to rebuild a marriage with my wife, and between us there can be no secrecy or deception....OBVIOUSLY. You seem to be missing something here. 

What if I told you that we were going to expose the affair to her cousin and her aunt, but no one else. Would that be okay? Who is 'required' to know about it in your mind? Have to be her parents? What if she isn't that close to her parents? You are making it seem so black and white that R will fail if you don't tell X,Y,Z person. I just don't see it that way.


----------



## bfree

TornNBroken said:


> I'm not trying to rebuild a relationship with my father and mother in law. I'm trying to rebuild a marriage with my wife, and between us there can be no secrecy or deception....OBVIOUSLY. You seem to be missing something here.
> 
> What if I told you that we were going to expose the affair to her cousin and her aunt, but no one else. Would that be okay? Who is 'required' to know about it in your mind? Have to be her parents? What if she isn't that close to her parents? You are making it seem so black and white that R will fail if you don't tell X,Y,Z person. I just don't see it that way.


I didn't say your relationship with your wife would absolutely fail if you didn't tell your parents and hers. I said that they would be helpful in reinforcing the reconciliation going forward. I also said that if you don't tell them WHEN, not if, it comes out your relationship with your parents and her parents will be greatly damaged. You are rationalizing things just like your wife did. It wasn't healthy then and its not healthy now. Why are you so afraid of telling the truth?


----------



## TornNBroken

bfree said:


> I would be able to work on forgiveness and *eventually things would normalize*. But if I found out I was lied to things would never be the same. How's that working out for you by the way...recovering from lies? Why would you wish that on your parents or hers? Or are you of the opinion that what they don't know won't hurt them. That is cheaterspeak.


The prevailing consensus seems to be that one NEVER gets over the pain that is caused by a cheating spouse, that even though you might be able to forgive, you NEVER forget and things are NEVER the same. Yet you say things will just go back to normal after a while? Doubtful. 

And again, I don't feel like all of my family, or any specific member, is owed any information from me that I don't want to give. Have I divulged to my parents that I smoked weed in highschool? Did I tell my parents my wife and I had oral sex prior to marriage (parents are Christian and are strongly against premarital sex)? No, cause those things would cause them pain, would make them look at me differently, and I felt that they didn't need to know.


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## PieceOfSky

Her only adviser and comforter at this point is someone who facilitated, if not encouraged, the lies that enabled this much more severe situation to emerge.

Her only adviser and comforter is not a friend of the marriage, and I daresay she has been a failure in some sense as a friend to your wife. 

This friend she is staying with may mean well, but, she's out of her league, and she is too involved in this anyways to be objective.

You know your wife better than anyone, I'm sure, even better than she knows herself, but she is under more stress than anyone you've ever known; and it is about to reach a peak. 

Your wife is vulnerable to unclear thinking -- her own, and the friend she is staying with. Worse, it seems likely her friend has brought other friends into advise, and that advice is probably all over the spectrum.

*To me, the issue is not: expose or not expose. The need is to get her into the protective shield of someone who loves you both, *to help get her through these next several days.

It seems especially urgent, in case the test results are not what she hopes; in that case, you are not going to be able to be there at all for her, I'm guessing.

If there is no one "loving" you can trust, then a mental health professional is still a better choice than what she has at the moment.

Now, I hope this doesn't offend or worry you unnecessarily, so read on or not, your choice:

Here's the worst I could see happening: the news is the child is not yours, and her friend (or friend of her friend) encourages her to take action that you think she would never ever consider (abortion), and facilitates that action. She may be so distraught, an unable to think, and she folds under the pressure. After awhile, she'll realize that is not what she had wanted to do, and it may haunt and destroy her the next 50 years of her life. That's bad enough, but then consider one positive/negative test does not a fact make; a second test might have confirmed you were the father.

Maybe it sounds absurd, knowing her as well as you do. All I can say is I've seen someone exert such pressure on another (my father-in-law on my unwed sister-in-law), in the heat of the moment (he even slapped her), and such was seemingly extremely extremely out of character. I'm just glad I and my wife were there to step in *immediately* with calmer minds, and to let the situation defuse before any stupid actions. (My nephew is alive and well, a wonderful kid, and loved dearly by his grandfather; what a waste that would have been.)


----------



## TornNBroken

bfree said:


> I didn't say your relationship with your wife would absolutely fail if you didn't tell your parents and hers. I said that they would be helpful in reinforcing the reconciliation going forward. I also said that if you don't tell them WHEN, not if, it comes out your relationship with your parents and her parents will be greatly damaged. You are rationalizing things just like your wife did. It wasn't healthy then and its not healthy now. Why are you so afraid of telling the truth?


I'll say it again, I just don't think that the benefit outweighs the cost. 

IF, and I say IF, not when, they did find out one day down the road, say 5 years after we reconciled, I would simply say, "Yeah, we went through a rough patch and had some big issues to get over, but we made amends and continue to work on marriage everyday."

I'll take the risk of having to have that conversation one day, than take the guaranteed pain and anguish and the drastic change in perception that everyone would have of my wife (and me) if we told them that she's fvcking a massage douche while she's pregnant.


----------



## bfree

When you marry someone you marry not only them but their family as well. Building or rebuilding a relationship with your wife is going to involve and affect her parents and yours whether you like it or not. Trying to fool yourself otherwise is just silly. You don't live in a vaccum and nether does your wife. Each of your actions and decisions affects the other. The same with your family and hers. Each decision you both make together affects them and vice versa. I'm very sorry that you might get embarrassed if your respective families find out but which is better embarrassment and honesty or pain and deception?


----------



## TornNBroken

PieceOfSky said:


> Her only adviser and comforter at this point is someone who facilitated, if not encouraged, the lies that enabled this much more severe situation to emerge.
> 
> Her only adviser and comforter is not a friend of the marriage, and I daresay she has been a failure in some sense as a friend to your wife.
> 
> This friend she is staying with may mean well, but, she's out of her league, and she is too involved in this anyways to be objective.
> 
> You know your wife better than anyone, I'm sure, even better than she knows herself, but she is under more stress than anyone you've ever known; and it is about to reach a peak.
> 
> Your wife is vulnerable to unclear thinking -- her own, and the friend she is staying with. Worse, it seems likely her friend has brought other friends into advise, and that advice is probably all over the spectrum.
> 
> *To me, the issue is not: expose or not expose. The need is to get her into the protective shield of someone who loves you both, *to help get her through these next several days.
> 
> It seems especially urgent, in case the test results are not what she hopes; in that case, you are not going to be able to be there at all for her, I'm guessing.
> 
> If there is no one "loving" you can trust, then a mental health professional is still a better choice than what she has at the moment.
> 
> Now, I hope this doesn't offend or worry you unnecessarily, so read on or not, your choice:
> 
> Here's the worst I could see happening: the news is the child is not yours, and her friend (or friend of her friend) encourages her to take action that you think she would never ever consider (abortion), and facilitates that action. She may be so distraught, an unable to think, and she folds under the pressure. After awhile, she'll realize that is not what she had wanted to do, and it may haunt and destroy her the next 50 years of her life. That's bad enough, but then consider one positive/negative test does not a fact make; a second test might have confirmed you were the father.
> 
> Maybe it sounds absurd, knowing her as well as you do. All I can say is I've seen someone exert such pressure on another (my father-in-law on my unwed sister-in-law), in the heat of the moment (he even slapped her), and such was seemingly extremely extremely out of character. I'm just glad I and my wife were there to step in *immediately* with calmer minds, and to let the situation defuse before any stupid actions. (My nephew is alive and well, a wonderful kid, and loved dearly by his grandfather; what a waste that would have been.)


I appreciate the input, but if the kid isn't mine, she can go straight to her parents. We'd be done, and I'd encourage her to go stay with them...I'd probably even call them and tell them what was happening. 

If its mine, then she can come back home and we'll start to work things out, including starting marriage counseling, talking with our pastor, and I've been looking into couples support groups in the area that have experience infidelity.


----------



## TornNBroken

bfree said:


> When you marry someone you marry not only them but their family as well. Building or rebuilding a relationship with your wife is going to involve and affect her parents and yours whether you like it or not. Trying to fool yourself otherwise is just silly. You don't live in a vaccum and nether does your wife. Each of your actions and decisions affects the other. The same with your family and hers. Each decision you both make together affects them and vice versa. I'm very sorry that you might get embarrassed if your respective families find out but which is better embarrassment and honesty or pain and deception?


You didnt answer my question about what family NEEDS to know. And what if you aren't very close to your parents? You also mention the choice as embarrassment and honest vs pain and deception....when the real choice is embarrassment, honesty AND pain vs deception/discretion. 

Do I need to tell her cousins that she's close to? My brother's wife? Her aunt and uncle that raised her half the time growing up? Who NEEDS to know?


----------



## JCD

TornNBroken said:


> So is it your opinion that you can't recover from any affair unless you tell your family about it? If so, how many family members is enough?


I already said: HER parents unless they are extremely zealous and unyielding.

They will be sympathetic, yet have a role in correction and not treat her TOO badly.

But...all of it is risky.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

TornNBroken said:


> The prevailing consensus seems to be that one NEVER gets over the pain that is caused by a cheating spouse, that even though you might be able to forgive, you NEVER forget and things are NEVER the same. Yet you say things will just go back to normal after a while? Doubtful.
> 
> And again, I don't feel like all of my family, or any specific member, is owed any information from me that I don't want to give. Have I divulged to my parents that I smoked weed in highschool? Did I tell my parents my wife and I had oral sex prior to marriage (parents are Christian and are strongly against premarital sex)? No, cause those things would cause them pain, would make them look at me differently, and I felt that they didn't need to know.


Your parents are Christian. I assume you are as well. What does the Bible say about deception? What does the Bible say about pride? The only reason you really do not want to expose is your ego (pride.) You cannot say what they don't know won't hurt them. You now know that not to be the case. You cannot say that they wouldn't forgive her. They are Christian and forgiveness is a foregone conclusion. In all honesty there is no real reason for you NOT to tell them other than you would be embarrassed. That is your decision but I urge you to reach into your heart and ask yourself if that is truly a good reason to lie to them. I will speak no more about this.


----------



## bfree

TornNBroken said:


> You didnt answer my question about what family NEEDS to know. And what if you aren't very close to your parents? You also mention the choice as embarrassment and honest vs pain and deception....when the real choice is embarrassment, honesty AND pain vs deception/discretion.
> 
> Do I need to tell her cousins that she's close to? My brother's wife? Her aunt and uncle that raised her half the time growing up? Who NEEDS to know?


Who needs to know? Both sets of parents at least. This affects them directly whether you want to admit it or not. If you need support she already offered to expose it to your brother I believe right? That would be your choice if you needed to. If she is close with a cousin then telling her might be a good idea if she would be someone your wife could lean on when needed. Beyond the parents is optional depending on whether they would be of help to you and/or your wife. But you and your wife keeping this a secret is not only disrespectful to your parents but is going to add another layer of stress on your marriage that doesn't need to be there.


----------



## TornNBroken

bfree said:


> I will speak no more about this.


Ok, to each their own. I think we're just coming to the table with different premises.


----------



## azteca1986

TornNBroken said:


> Do I need to tell her cousins that she's close to? My brother's wife? Her aunt and uncle that raised her half the time growing up? Who NEEDS to know?


People who are 'friends of the marriage'. The people who have the most positive influence over her.

If you decide to R, you're asking for their help in what will be a long and difficult journey for you both.


----------



## warlock07

TornNBroken said:


> What you say SOUNDS like it makes sense, but when I think about it, I'm not getting what makes sense about it. How, specifically, does her parents knowing she cheated make her more accountable for her future actions? Her parents aren't going to be checking her phone or email. I'm sure it would be awkward for them to be like "Hey, are cheating at all lately?"
> 
> What specifically could they be doing to keep her more accountable than she already will be to me?
> 
> I guess I'm saying that it'd be much easier to hide any future deception from her parents than from me...


Look, you need to start thinking for yourself. I don't get anything by convincing you. 

She is now accountable to you now that she confessed, right ? Same thing at a lesser level with her parents. Your devastation and pain is a reminder for her for the rest of her life. So will be her in-laws and parents reaction.(Unless you have nut job parents that will make the situation worse.)


----------



## JCD

We outlined our reasons. It is your decision. I think it is your ego more than her because the only person who is stridently saying no is you. Obviously NOONE wants to do this, but I'm done belaboring the point.

I don't know that R can't work without exposure. It is purely up to your ability to forgive and her ability to restrain herself and REMAIN remorseful. Because it is the curse of man to forget...

You are betting the farm on your ability and yours alone to read your wife. Okay. The drawbacks are obvious but it IS your perogative.

Let me ask you to do this mental exercise: imagine your wife is overwhelmed with guilt and tells the family member she is closest to. Might be you mother, her mother, grandma , dad etc

What was the first emotion you felt? Why? Were you angrier at her for seeking solace and advice?

Think about that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TornNBroken

warlock07 said:


> Look, you need to start thinking for yourself. I don't get anything by convincing you.
> 
> She is now accountable to you now that she confessed, right ? Same thing at a lesser level with her parents. Your devastation and pain is a reminder for her for the rest of her life. So will be her in-laws and parents reaction.(Unless you have nut job parents that will make the situation worse.)


I just feel like simply telling them will make the situation worse. I get telling your family that your wife has cancer and will be needing support and love, but its a different thing to tell family that your daughter/daughter in law had no respect for her marriage and was sleeping around while pregnant. I'm just trying to think how i would feel/act if my future son or daughter in law cheated on my son or daughter...


----------



## TornNBroken

And I can always tell them later if I/we feel like we need to or want to, but I can never un-tell them, so I'm not gonna rush out and do this without SERIOUSLY thinking it over.


----------



## warlock07

TornNBroken said:


> The prevailing consensus seems to be that one NEVER gets over the pain that is caused by a cheating spouse, that even though you might be able to forgive, you NEVER forget and things are NEVER the same. Yet you say things will just go back to normal after a while? Doubtful.
> 
> And again, I don't feel like all of my family, or any specific member, is owed any information from me that I don't want to give. Have I divulged to my parents that I smoked weed in highschool? Did I tell my parents my wife and I had oral sex prior to marriage (parents are Christian and are strongly against premarital sex)? No, cause those things would cause them pain, would make them look at me differently, and I felt that they didn't need to know.


You just want to argue, don't you ? Are you really missing the intent behind telling her parents ? If she is not close to her parents then you don't. If your parents are nutjobs, then you don't tell them either. The intent is to tell only the closet members of the family that will/can look after her. It could her sister or your brother or even her distance aunt if she has a close relationship with your wife.


----------



## Ovid

I didn't expose. The A was over so I never saw a reason. If the A continued I would have told my in-laws why I was divorcing their daughter.


----------



## TornNBroken

warlock07 said:


> You just want to argue, don't you ? Are you really missing the intent behind telling her parents ? If she is not close to her parents then you don't. If your parents are nutjobs, then you don't tell them either. The intent is to tell only the closet members of the family that will/can look after her. It could her sister or your brother or even her distance aunt if she has a close relationship with your wife.


No, I'm not wanting to argue, I'm just wanting to really get to the bottom of WHY certain people need to know, and telling me that it so they can 'look after her' doesn't do it for me. I'm sorry if that sounds contentious...

Is it so that they can be extra watchdogs? So she can have a shoulder to cry on if I'm not in the mood to comfort her cause I'm still licking my own wounds? Is there anything else, or just those two things, cause that's all that I can think of...


----------



## SomedayDig

Okay...again...Torn has to do this himself. For the last few pages it's been kicking the dead horse on the subject. He's said that he can tell the parents later if they feel the need to. Let's let it go. He's made up his mind.


----------



## turnera

TornNBroken said:


> You didnt answer my question about what family NEEDS to know. And what if you aren't very close to your parents? You also mention the choice as embarrassment and honest vs pain and deception....when the real choice is embarrassment, honesty AND pain vs deception/discretion.
> 
> Do I need to tell her cousins that she's close to? My brother's wife? Her aunt and uncle that raised her half the time growing up? Who NEEDS to know?


Usually it's recommended that you expose to the people whose respect she craves most. So that, if it happens again, she'll think twice because she won't want _those_ people possibly seeing that she did it again. If she's not close to her parents, but her cousin is her best friend, tell the cousin. If she looks up to her big brother but can't be in the same room as her mom, tell her brother. 

As has been stated, the benefit is this: It gives her someone who knows what she did so she can go to that person if she's having a hard time dealing with withdrawal, and they can support her in a non-husband way. It makes a HUGE impact on her, having to tell her most important person that she screwed up - think of one of those most traumatic events that you experienced in life - you remember it like it was yesterday. If she has to tell her mom, she'll remember the guilt she felt, and her mother's disappointment, for the rest of her life; it may help her think twice. And it tells this person(s) what's really going on so if things get bad and people start lobbing grenades at you for hurting their little baby, this person can step in and defend you.

It would be a quiet, private moment and nothing more, maybe some tears, hopefully some hugs for her...and you move on, strengthened as a couple.


----------



## TornNBroken

Ovid said:


> I didn't expose. The A was over so I never saw a reason. If the A continued I would have told my in-laws why I was divorcing their daughter.


So how has this worked out for you? How long since DDay? Do you, or your spouse, ever really wish other people knew?


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## turnera

TornNBroken said:


> I just feel like simply telling them will make the situation worse.


In what way? What do you envision happening?


----------



## TornNBroken

turnera said:


> Usually it's recommended that you expose to the people whose respect she craves most. So that, if it happens again, she'll think twice because she won't want _those_ people possibly seeing that she did it again. If she's not close to her parents, but her cousin is her best friend, tell the cousin. If she looks up to her big brother but can't be in the same room as her mom, tell her brother.
> 
> As has been stated, the benefit is this: It gives her someone who knows what she did so she can go to that person if she's having a hard time dealing with withdrawal, and they can support her in a non-husband way. It makes a HUGE impact on her, having to tell her most important person that she screwed up - think of one of those most traumatic events that you experienced in life - you remember it like it was yesterday. If she has to tell her mom, she'll remember the guilt she felt, and her mother's disappointment, for the rest of her life; it may help her think twice. And it tells this person(s) what's really going on so if things get bad and people start lobbing grenades at you for hurting their little baby, this person can step in and defend you.
> 
> It would be a quiet, private moment and nothing more, maybe some tears, hopefully some hugs for her...and you move on, strengthened as a couple.


Thanks...so it sounds like its mainly an added layer of protection against cheating again, yes?


----------



## warlock07

TornNBroken said:


> Now that makes a little bit of sense, but I don't think that's the case at all. Don't get me wrong, she's not DYING to tell everyone how bad she fvcked up, but she's totally willing to do it. I'm probably more against it than she is over all, even though we both don't really want to do it.


Maybe right now she is ready, when the pangs of guilt are still fresh. Maybe she won't be so ready after sometime when the guilt lessens or you do something to piss her off. 

Pretty sure she felt guilty after her first affair. She probably felt guilt after her 2nd affair too. And she probably felt the most guilty after she had sex with each of these and came back home to you and saw your face. Yet things did not stop. They escalated. She compartmentalized. Nothing says she cannot do it again.


----------



## TornNBroken

turnera said:


> In what way? What do you envision happening?


Well, just like you mentioned that my wife would never forget the guilt and disappointment that she would get from telling her parents, I feel that it would be the same for her parents. I feel that the picture that they have of their daughter would be crushed forever, that they would just be hurt whenever they think of her and how she failed. That they would question how they raised her. I worry they might feel different in some way towards me or our kids than they would towards their other sons-in-law and their kids. I don't know if you saw earlier in the thread, but my MIL has a heart condition that can be dangerous during times of great stress (Takotsubo cardiomyopathy). Her father has a history of panic attacks and other stress related conditions (i.e. shingles), so I have real concern for their health upon hearing such disturbing news. 

My wife is already disgusted with herself to the point of depression and not eating well these last few weeks, even though she is trying to take care of herself for the baby's sake. I'm worried that she'll have greater issues with depression knowing that she's let EVERYONE down. That she won't be able to be around people that she currently feels comfortable around, without feeling like a shameful wh0re.

So when I weigh all those concerns against the benefit of having an extra shoulder to cry on or an extra set of eyes, you can see why its not such an easy decision.


----------



## turnera

TornNBroken said:


> Thanks...so it sounds like its mainly an added layer of protection against cheating again, yes?


 I see it as that, but more importantly, a way for HER to understand the magnitude of what she did. Cheaters rarely are able to fathom the destruction they cause; this way, they get to FEEL, literally, some of the pain and attribute it back on themselves. I always say that a couple can't R unless the cheater experiences humility.

A story I like to give is the kid who steals a candy bar. One dad sees the empty wrapper after they left the store, and just says 'Billy, that was wrong, don't do it again.' Another dad sees it, goes right back to the store, puts his kid in front of the store owner, and tells him to admit what he did and apologize, and tells the owner his son will work off the price of the candy bar, where's the broom?

Which kid is more likely to steal again?


----------



## turnera

TornNBroken said:


> Well, just like you mentioned that my wife would never forget the guilt and disappointment that she would get from telling her parents, I feel that it would be the same for her parents. I feel that the picture that they have of their daughter would be crushed forever, that they would just be hurt whenever they think of her and how she failed. That they would question how they raised her. I worry they might feel different in some way towards me or our kids than they would towards their other sons-in-law and their kids.


That's life, you're describing. Things happen. You deal with them. You adjust your opinions of people. Doesn't mean anything changes. Parents and siblings forgive. And your wife NEEDS that guilt and disappointment, IMO, given her history. You didn't expose the first time, did you?

It's your choice. No one is going to die because you pick the 'wrong' way to go. I just think it's a little safer bet that your marriage could survive, if she does it. Plus, it will give her someone to talk to and, given the depression you describe, she needs that.


----------



## TornNBroken

turnera said:


> A story I like to give is the kid who steals a candy bar. One dad sees the empty wrapper after they left the store, and just says 'Billy, that was wrong, don't do it again.' Another dad sees it, goes right back to the store, puts his kid in front of the store owner, and tells him to admit what he did and apologize, and tells the owner his son will work off the price of the candy bar, where's the broom?
> 
> Which kid is more likely to steal again?


I like this example, and I liken it to what has already happened with us. She cheated back in FL and told her friend about it. I'm sure her friend told her (and she already knew) that was wrong and not to do it again. This last time, she confessed to me 'the store owner' and has felt so much shame and humility and guilt for the pain she cause me that I don't think having to tell her parents would be worse than telling me...but I do think it might be added unnecessary pain nevertheless.


----------



## TornNBroken

To be honest, assuming her parents don't keel over at the news, I would be OK maybe with telling just them. I know that they would forgive her and be a support for her. I do think that it would ever change the way they looked at her, and that just makes me sad to think of. I do worry that if they knew, that there's more chance that it would leak out than if just the two of us knew.


----------



## Almostrecovered

TornNBroken said:


> No, I'm not wanting to argue, I'm just wanting to really get to the bottom of WHY certain people need to know, and telling me that it so they can 'look after her' doesn't do it for me. I'm sorry if that sounds contentious...
> 
> Is it so that they can be extra watchdogs? So she can have a shoulder to cry on if I'm not in the mood to comfort her cause I'm still licking my own wounds? Is there anything else, or just those two things, cause that's all that I can think of...



there are plenty of reasons why it helps R if you go down that path that we have already outlined

are any of them absolutely necessary at this point? of course not (and I am even an example of that), but what seems to be hard thing to do actually makes it easier in the long term, just my imo based on my own experience and being a TAM/CWI member for almost two years now


----------



## turnera

And what happens if it leaks out? Again, you seem to be terrified of the 'world' knowing what happened. Why is that? What do you expect to happen? Shunned? Run out of town? 

The best marriages I've seen recovered from affairs, the couple just accepts that it happened, and even tell people if the subject of affairs come up "Oh, yeah, John had an affair back in 2003; it was hard, but we got over it, and now we have an amazing marriage."

See the difference between that and your shame-filled fear?


----------



## bfree

TornNBroken said:


> Well, just like you mentioned that my wife would never forget the guilt and disappointment that she would get from telling her parents, I feel that it would be the same for her parents. I feel that the picture that they have of their daughter would be crushed forever, that they would just be hurt whenever they think of her and how she failed. That they would question how they raised her. I worry they might feel different in some way towards me or our kids than they would towards their other sons-in-law and their kids. I don't know if you saw earlier in the thread, but my MIL has a heart condition that can be dangerous during times of great stress (Takotsubo cardiomyopathy). Her father has a history of panic attacks and other stress related conditions (i.e. shingles), so I have real concern for their health upon hearing such disturbing news.
> 
> My wife is already disgusted with herself to the point of depression and not eating well these last few weeks, even though she is trying to take care of herself for the baby's sake. I'm worried that she'll have greater issues with depression knowing that she's let EVERYONE down. That she won't be able to be around people that she currently feels comfortable around, without feeling like a shameful wh0re.
> 
> So when I weigh all those concerns against the benefit of having an extra shoulder to cry on or an extra set of eyes, you can see why its not such an easy decision.


I said I wouldn't comment on exposure again and I won't. But you have a very odd way at looking at who parents are and how they react. I am a parent, have been for many years. My sons have done some pretty bad things. I don't look at them any differently than I did before. They are people and people screw up. If a mother or father can never look at their child again after a screw up no matter how big or small, they had a very distorted view of who their child was to begin with.

Also, I told you I was divorced many years ago. After my divorce I became an alcoholic and drug user...among other things. Part of recovery is to admit and atone. Much of the burden these people carry is the burden of keeping the secret and/or not apologizing for the hurt and pain caused. Nobody gets better until they admit what they did and atone for the wrongs done. Only then can they be forgiven and forgive themselves. You wife screwed up. You are hurt but so is she. How is she going to get over the guilt and pain she will feel if she doesn't admit and atone? If she keeps this secret it will poison her soul and it will affect your reconciliation.

Example, calvin and CSS are two long time posters. They recently took a vacation together where CSS admitted to calvin's extended family that she cheated on calvin a year ago. She was so terrified on exposing that she almost didn't go. But she found the courage, went, and admitted her sin. Guess what happened. First they chastised her for what she did and then they forgave her. By the end of the trip they were closer than they had ever been. And CSS said it felt like a great weight had been lifted. Their reconciliation is now in overdrive, both of them saying that for the first time they feel like they are over the hump. This REAL LIFE event seems to contradict your IMAGINED scenario of exposure. Maybe your wife would actually feel better if she shed some of this burden?

Again, the decision is your but it needs more thought don't you think?


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## TornNBroken

Alright, well, it seems like a lot of people feel strongly about this, so I'll definitely keep thinking about it. That being said, I'm still not convinced at the moment, and as I mentioned, I can always do it later, but I can never take it back once its done. So I'll keep praying about what is best to do.

On another note...

Just got off the phone with the lab to see if I could get any different info from what I got yesterday and the lady said she got the results right before they closed last night and she's currently processing them and putting it into email form. I'll have it by the end of the day.



Welcome back knot-in-my-stomach. I've missed you these last few days.


----------



## TornNBroken

bfree said:


> I said I wouldn't comment on exposure again and I won't. But you have a very odd way at looking at who parents are and how they react. I am a parent, have been for many years. My sons have done some pretty bad things. I don't look at them any differently than I did before. They are people and people screw up. If a mother or father can never look at their child again after a screw up no matter how big or small, they had a very distorted view of who their child was to begin with.
> 
> Also, I told you I was divorced many years ago. After my divorce I became an alcoholic and drug user...among other things. Part of recovery is to admit and atone. Much of the burden these people carry is the burden of keeping the secret and/or not apologizing for the hurt and pain caused. Nobody gets better until they admit what they did and atone for the wrongs done. Only then can they be forgiven and forgive themselves. You wife screwed up. You are hurt but so is she. How is she going to get over the guilt and pain she will feel if she doesn't admit and atone? If she keeps this secret it will poison her soul and it will affect your reconciliation.
> 
> Example, calvin and CSS are two long time posters. They recently took a vacation together where CSS admitted to calvin's extended family that she cheated on calvin a year ago. She was so terrified on exposing that she almost didn't go. But she found the courage, went, and admitted her sin. Guess what happened. First they chastised her for what she did and then they forgave her. By the end of the trip they were closer than they had ever been. And CSS said it felt like a great weight had been lifted. Their reconciliation is now in overdrive, both of them saying that for the first time they feel like they are over the hump. This REAL LIFE event seems to contradict your IMAGINED scenario of exposure. Maybe your wife would actually feel better if she shed some of this burden?
> 
> Again, the decision is your but it needs more thought don't you think?


Yeah, I will think about it more. I don't have kids, so I don't have the perspective of a parent. I appreciate your comments.


----------



## tom67

TornNBroken said:


> Alright, well, it seems like a lot of people feel strongly about this, so I'll definitely keep thinking about it. That being said, I'm still not convinced at the moment, and as I mentioned, I can always do it later, but I can never take it back once its done. So I'll keep praying about what is best to do.
> 
> On another note...
> 
> Just got off the phone with the lab to see if I could get any different info from what I got yesterday and the lady said she got the results right before they closed last night and she's currently processing them and putting it into email form. I'll have it by the end of the day.
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome back knot-in-my-stomach. I've missed you these last few days.


Ugh good luck.


----------



## TornNBroken

tom67 said:


> Ugh good luck.


Thanks. I'll be crushed if its not mine. During those first couple days after I found out, I found myself having moments where I was just hoping and praying the kid isn't mine so that I could just leave this steaming pile behind me and have a clean break. 

Now, not so much...

I just want to be a dad and move past this whole mess


----------



## turnera

I have always told my DD22 "I may not be happy with things you do, but I will never not love YOU."


----------



## 2asdf2

TornNBroken said:


> So is there a specific credential I should look for/ask for, or just a general, "do you deal with infidelity and recovery?"
> 
> 
> Edit: I guess you did say to ask for credentials...so what are these credentials called? Certified Infidelity Specialist? : )


I checked credentials of my MC in Chapel Hill, and she seemed great. Yet, she bought my WW's total bulschit and wanted me to have a psychiatrist evaluate my delusional thinking. When I sent her a detailed taped account from an OM, the MC had no comment.

You need to interview the MC and elicit what their views on infidelity, reconciliation, forgiveness, divorce etc. are. At this point, don't tell the MC what your case details are, but ask questions and listen carefully. 

I did not do that (or do it well) and spent $5Kplus on getting shafted. It may cost you one hour session ($225 in my case) but may save you a catastrophe in the end.


----------



## aug

TornNBroken said:


> We haven't told anyone we know except for this old GF of hers. She's my friend too technically I guess (she's the sister of my BF from highschool). But that's it. Many people have stated that exposure is necessary to STOP an affair. I have as close to zero doubt that she is having any contact with him that I can have right now. I have access to her emails, FB, etc. She knows that I've tracked down emails that she's deleted "permanently" out of her trash folder, and that I've found texts that were deleted. I've never told her how I've found out any of the info, and I think she basically knows that she can't hide much from me. I suppose she could be seeing him in person, as I don't have a GPS on her car or phone, but I just doubt it.
> 
> I see exposing this to family and/or friends as nothing but harmful. I'm open to be proven wrong, but I just don't see the benefit in exposing her to intense shame (moreso than what she is already experiencing), exposing me to embarrassment/being viewed as a sucker for taking her back (if I do), and causing irreparable damage to how my family and friends would view her down the road. And for what benefit? I don't see much...



She could be using her GF's phone, or get a new or a disposable one.


----------



## Laila8

TornNBroken,

I just finished reading your thread, and I am so sorry this is happening to you. You deserve so much better than this. I hope you get the results you want with the test.


----------



## JCD

TornNBroken said:


> Well, just like you mentioned that my wife would never forget the guilt and disappointment that she would get from telling her parents, I feel that it would be the same for her parents. I feel that the picture that they have of their daughter would be crushed forever, that they would just be hurt whenever they think of her and how she failed. That they would question how they raised her. I worry they might feel different in some way towards me or our kids than they would towards their other sons-in-law and their kids. I don't know if you saw earlier in the thread, but my MIL has a heart condition that can be dangerous during times of great stress (Takotsubo cardiomyopathy). Her father has a history of panic attacks and other stress related conditions (i.e. shingles), so I have real concern for their health upon hearing such disturbing news.
> 
> My wife is already disgusted with herself to the point of depression and not eating well these last few weeks, even though she is trying to take care of herself for the baby's sake. I'm worried that she'll have greater issues with depression knowing that she's let EVERYONE down. That she won't be able to be around people that she currently feels comfortable around, without feeling like a shameful wh0re.
> 
> So when I weigh all those concerns against the benefit of having an extra shoulder to cry on or an extra set of eyes, you can see why its not such an easy decision.


This is a valid concern on all counts. And it might very well be that your pain and looks of recrimination are enough to keep her on the straight and narrow. Before she could pretend that she was still the perfect princess. That is not possible now.

I think the one thing that is getting to people here, and I'm sure it's one of your concerns, is that this is the second time. (The way you describe it and the way I look at it, that first time was a single episode, sort of a loose....uh...I mean LOST weekend). So guilt wasn't enough before. Shame might be. And the question you are asking yourself is how much shame does she really need?

You know her best.

I think you are whistling past the graveyard about how easy it will be to abandon the mother of your child if she slips again. But that should be hard. And I'm sure you thought about that.

It would be easier if this was a one time thing. Then I'd agree with you wholeheartedly.

Good luck whatever you do. It means nothing but we care about what happens to both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

JCD said:


> This is a valid concern on all counts. And it might very well be that your pain and looks of recrimination are enough to keep her on the straight and narrow. Before she could pretend that she was still the perfect princess. That is not possible now.
> 
> I think the one thing that is getting to people here, and I'm sure it's one of your concerns, is that this is the second time. (The way you describe it and the way I look at it, that first time was a single episode, sort of a loose....uh...I mean LOST weekend). So guilt wasn't enough before. Shame might be. And the question you are asking yourself is how much shame does she really need?
> 
> You know her best.
> 
> I think you are whistling past the graveyard about how easy it will be to abandon the mother of your child if she slips again. But that should be hard. And I'm sure you thought about that.
> 
> It would be easier if this was a one time thing. Then I'd agree with you wholeheartedly.
> 
> Good luck whatever you do. It means nothing but we care about what happens to both of you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: It is a tough call take your time after the results are emailed to you.


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## turnera

I'm a little stumped, though, about your definite decision to leave if it's not your baby. Here you are saying you want to be a dad and take her back, when you KNOW she's been schtupping other guys, before and after D-day, and you're willing to take her back. 

But if it turns out you're not the bio-daddy...now she's expendable? What changed? The only change I see is that you may feel you can't raise another man's child, which is understandable - some can, some can't. I just want to make sure YOU understand your line of thinking. Ive seen many man make such a resolute decision but, when push comes to shove, they can't follow that decision. It might help you to know ahead of time WHY you're choosing whatever you're choosing.


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## LongWalk

Torn, I have read your thread from the start. You – quite understandably – were a wreck in the beginning. From the way you formulate your thoughts now it is clear that you are about as together as person in your situation could be. Besides being rational about the present, you are able to reason about the long term consequences of your actions. Impressive.

Your doubts about exposure makes sense to me. The idea that a pregnant woman could cheat is beyond the pale. If the circumstance surround the latest A weren't horrible enough, the earlier incidents make her seem like damaged goods. Spreading the story would be make R very difficult since people that she has socialize with for the rest of your lives would consider her a freak; they would expect her to be a poor mother and wife. Imagine meeting people for decades and having this as your/her social resume. "Oh, Dr Torn, did you know his wife... blah, blah, and then he blah, blah." Who needs that for the next 30 years.

Was it Tunera who suggested finding some person whose judgment and regard she valued could serve as a ground to social reality? Maybe that is not a bad idea. But it also puts a burden of secrecy on that person. 

If you D, you should tell your family and hers why, maybe without going into too much detail.

The strange thing is she didn't understand how deeply hurt you would be. This suggests her judgment is flawed. In addition to IC, did you discuss the possibility of her seeing a psychiatrist or psychologist?

It almost seems as if you are close to shouldering the burden of holding her together. The mental image I have is that she is riding you piggy back while the child gets larger and heavier. It is a good thing you are separated for the moment so that you can think once the paternity test results come in.

If you go foward with R, perhaps you should divorce and remarry with a prenup to protect you against splitting your future assets? Such a document might help her to think more clearly about the consequences of her behavior.

If the child is not yours, you are quite sure that you will reject her and cease to love her rather soon after the fact. But is the child is yours, do you fear that your love will in any event ebb away over time without you being able to halt the process?


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## LongWalk

turnera said:


> I'm a little stumped, though, about your definite decision to leave if it's not your baby. Here you are saying you want to be a dad and take her back, when you KNOW she's been schtupping other guys, before and after D-day, and you're willing to take her back.
> 
> But if it turns out you're not the bio-daddy...now she's expendable? What changed? The only change I see is that you may feel you can't raise another man's child, which is understandable - some can, some can't. I just want to make sure YOU understand your line of thinking. Ive seen many man make such a resolute decision but, when push comes to shove, they can't follow that decision. It might help you to know ahead of time WHY you're choosing whatever you're choosing.


He seems to love kids. If anyone would consider it, he would. I guess it would be a real love child in such a case. As man, the thought instinctually fills me with revulsion, but then again many couples who cannot have children would do a lot to have a non-biological child.


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## aug

Reconciliation would be quite a self-sacrifice for his own child. Hope his underlying anger, regret and disappointment of his wife's multiple affairs do not seep out thereby impacting the child psychological development.


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## terrence4159

torn there was a guy on here for help, long story short he didnt listen and DIDNT EXPOSE she moved back in one call to the cops saying he hit her BOOM he was out of the house and when he then wanted to expose guess what not one soul beleived him.

the point some are making torn what happens if the kid is yours you decide to R and then a year from now she D's you and during the R tells everyone how mean and abusive you are then the cheating "claims"you will say will have 0 effect on people.

read changingme's thread (she is my hero for a ww) SHE called EVERYONE she knew his parents all their friends when her husband caught her cheating, THE SECOND HE LEFT FROM THE CONFRONTATION SHE CALLED!!


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## northland

terrence4159 said:


> torn there was a guy on here for help, long story short he didnt listen and DIDNT EXPOSE she moved back in one call to the cops saying he hit her BOOM he was out of the house and when he then wanted to expose guess what not one soul beleived him..


She could have booted him out with a restraining order even if he exposed her. Happens all the time. In fact, it might be even more likely that due to the increased conflict from exposure that this sort of thing will happen.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Just found out...need advice *



northland said:


> She could have booted him out with a restraining order even if he exposed her. Happens all the time. In fact, it might be even more likely that due to the increased conflict from exposure that this sort of thing will happen.


Except she has already offered to expose the affair. All torn has to do is let her.


----------



## WyshIknew

TornNBroken said:


> I think she was in her little fantasy world and obviously not truly realizing what the consequences might be. She has told me repeatedly that she was shocked at exactly how hurt I was. Not that she thought I would be cool with it, but just the extent to which I was effected when I found out. Her mindset before I found out and going forward are obviously different.



It is 'interesting' that you mention her shock at the way her confession affected you.
A poster confessed to her husband regarding a one night stand and she has said something somewhat similar to your WW. Quote below from her thread.



WyshIknew said:


> Hi,
> 
> Knowing what you know now do you still think you made the right move by confessing or do you wish you had kept quiet and tried to 'make it right' with your hubby?
> 
> Part of the reason I ask is that in another thread a woman had a drunken threesome with two guys in a van and their flat.
> 
> She kept it hidden from her hubby for 15 years knowing what she had done, which must have eaten at her soul. And the truth still came out!


Her reply, (From private section so deleted names) This is a trick question right ?

I think the honest answer would be I don't know.

On one hand I'm relieved that the truth, all of it, came out in one shot. I think people really expect to look into their partner's eyes and see understanding being reflected back when they confess. But what you predominantly see, masking the emotions like anger and shock, is confusion. That's when you want to crawl into some hole and die. Once the truth starts coming out, its so tempting to minimise and omit facts because we really do expect, on a subconscious level, for the BS to have a light bulb moment of clarity and say "Oh, I understand why you did it". So, in a way I'm glad everything came out without me having to feed him little tidbits of truth and a bunch of lies. 

That said, I also wish that I had kept my mouth shut. Its true what they say about confessions. We do it for selfish reasons. There's always an accompanying sense of relief when its over but it comes at the cost of throwing your spouse into an emotional sea of turmoil. So I don't really know which path is better. And i don't think these questions really have convincing answers. There's always a chance of people knowing the truth even if the chance is less. And trying to conceal it with layers and layers of lies is a futile exercise because all it takes is one lie being exposed to start the chain reaction. So I guess it was better for him to hear the truth from my mouth. Still though, I have no definite answer to your question.[/QUOTE]


----------



## MarriedTex

TornNBroken said:


> Well, just like you mentioned that my wife would never forget the guilt and disappointment that she would get from telling her parents, I feel that it would be the same for her parents. I feel that the picture that they have of their daughter would be crushed forever, that they would just be hurt whenever they think of her and how she failed. That they would question how they raised her. I worry they might feel different in some way towards me or our kids than they would towards their other sons-in-law and their kids. I don't know if you saw earlier in the thread, but my MIL has a heart condition that can be dangerous during times of great stress (Takotsubo cardiomyopathy). Her father has a history of panic attacks and other stress related conditions (i.e. shingles), so I have real concern for their health upon hearing such disturbing news.
> 
> My wife is already disgusted with herself to the point of depression and not eating well these last few weeks, even though she is trying to take care of herself for the baby's sake. I'm worried that she'll have greater issues with depression knowing that she's let EVERYONE down. That she won't be able to be around people that she currently feels comfortable around, without feeling like a shameful wh0re.
> 
> So when I weigh all those concerns against the benefit of having an extra shoulder to cry on or an extra set of eyes, you can see why its not such an easy decision.


You are a good, caring, empathetic man.


----------



## Ovid

TornNBroken said:


> So how has this worked out for you? How long since DDay? Do you, or your spouse, ever really wish other people knew?


8 months. R is going well. It would be nice for me to have a real life person to talk to. W is working hard to keep me. We have an understanding that if she cheats again everyone will know about both As, and there will be no chance of a second attempt at R.


----------



## Will_Kane

So she kept the counseling from you as well as the affair.

As you already posted, that is just one more area for you to tackle if you reconcile.

No way I would be comfortable with her seeing the same counselor she saw while the affair was ongoing. That in itself would be a trigger. If you reconcile, new marriage, new counselor, new boundaries, new rules.

Look for a marriage counselor who has some experience with sex addiction, not because your wife is a sex addict, but because an emotional affair of the type your wife had is like an addiction (hence why I am surprised that neither of them has even attempted contact).

Also, ask the counselor if he/she is familiar with Dr. Shirley Glass, considered one of the leading experts and leading researchers on infidelity. Ask if he/she usually recommends reading Glass' book, Not Just Friends.


----------



## tom67

I hope op is out doing something for himself now the knots in his stomach, man. Torn hang in there.


----------



## SomedayDig

My sentiments exactly Tom.


----------



## Wiserforit

It isn't a matter of "not telling" about the affair.

Depending on how you interact with others close to you it can get deep into lying in order to cover up that you, her, both of you are in counseling and why. Things can happen that people see (like her not living at home), and you get put into a position of having to conceal or evade questions.

Even if you successfully conceal or evade it ends up compromising your relations with others and you've done it in order to protect someone from the consequences of their own actions. 

It's not that easy to hide it in the long run.


----------



## aug

It's not like no one besides Torn and his wife knows of the affair. There are a few people who already know. It's a matter of time before the rumor spreads.


----------



## larry.gray

terrence4159 said:


> torn there was a guy on here for help, long story short he didnt listen and DIDNT EXPOSE she moved back in one call to the cops saying he hit her BOOM he was out of the house and when he then wanted to expose guess what not one soul beleived him.
> 
> the point some are making torn what happens if the kid is yours you decide to R and then a year from now she D's you and during the R tells everyone how mean and abusive you are then the cheating "claims"you will say will have 0 effect on people.
> 
> read changingme's thread (she is my hero for a ww) SHE called EVERYONE she knew his parents all their friends when her husband caught her cheating, THE SECOND HE LEFT FROM THE CONFRONTATION SHE CALLED!!


Good point. Perhaps he could have her do a video confession, and he gets to keep it out of her reach with the hope that he never uses it.

If she tells lies, then the video gets shown.


----------



## dubBruin

Just checked in to see if you've heard, Torn. Stomach is in knots with you. Good luck.


----------



## TornNBroken

Will_Kane said:


> So she kept the counseling from you as well as the affair.


No, she told me that she wanted to start seeing a therapist, but just didn't tell me the true reason.

That being said....

It's my kid :toast:

I feel a big sense of relief. And I think I'm gonna have her move back home in a few days to see if we can start working on us. Thanks for all your support everyone.


----------



## alte Dame

Well! You will make a wonderful father. Wonderful.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

TornNBroken said:


> And I can always tell them later if I/we feel like we need to or want to, but I can never un-tell them, so I'm not gonna rush out and do this without SERIOUSLY thinking it over.


Very true. This thread is going too fast. Reality has to catch up, and some rest is needed. The exposing is often used to shock the WS out of the Fog, and I get that it is not necessary at this moment because of _that_ reason.

First await new facts, and then await how the demeanor of your wife develops.

Take care. I think you are in a very uncertain situation now, and you do keep reasoning surprisingly well.


----------



## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> No, she told me that she wanted to start seeing a therapist, but just didn't tell me the true reason.
> 
> That being said....
> 
> It's my kid :toast:
> 
> I feel a big sense of relief. And I think I'm gonna have her move back home in a few days to see if we can start working on us. Thanks for all your support everyone.


Congratulations on finding out (for the second time) you're going to be a dad!


----------



## Chaparral

TornNBroken said:


> No, she told me that she wanted to start seeing a therapist, but just didn't tell me the true reason.
> 
> That being said....
> 
> It's my kid :toast:
> 
> I feel a big sense of relief. And I think I'm gonna have her move back home in a few days to see if we can start working on us. Thanks for all your support everyone.


Does your wife know yet?


----------



## Chaparral

Personally, I think 5 or 6 pages of exposure talk has more than beat that horse to death. The horse died from deja vu. The horse died from deja vu vu vu vu.

Good luck with reconcilliation .

And congratulations. Being a dad can't he described. It can only be experienced.


----------



## SomedayDig

TornNBroken said:


> No, she told me that she wanted to start seeing a therapist, but just didn't tell me the true reason.
> 
> That being said....
> 
> It's my kid :toast:
> 
> I feel a big sense of relief. And I think I'm gonna have her move back home in a few days to see if we can start working on us. Thanks for all your support everyone.


Glad to hear that, Torn. Now comes the work. It ain't easy, but I think if you use some tools like IC and MC, and maybe even a bit of TAM, you will be fine in the long run. It's gonna take time, though, brother. Don't rush it. Don't rugsweep it. Even in your joyful celebration, you simply can NOT forget the betrayal she has put on you and your marriage.

Hold her to the fire. Albeit somewhat gently during the pregnancy, but nonetheless, she NEEDS to be held accountable. Don't accept any less and make sure she is doing the heavy lifting on repairing your marriage.


----------



## Acabado

Congrats Torn!!


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

chapparal said:


> Does your wife know yet?


So all of her actions are excused because the child is his?

I'm not sure how to handle this case to ensure that it does not occur again. A tough decision, but I know the pride and love of the child that's yours makes you want to claim your wife.

On the other hand. It's possible she won't stop her activities, especially since she cannot get pregnant.


----------



## walkonmars

congrats!

where're the cigars!


----------



## PieceOfSky

Yes....congratulations!!!!! I'm very happy for you, and your wife, and the little one-to-be!!!!!!!!

Make sure you get some sleep in, between now and then.


----------



## Acabado

DaddyLongShanks said:


> So all of her actions are excused because the child is his?


Where this came from?
WTH


----------



## Laila8

I'm happy it's your kid. 

But I don't think she should be forgiven, not without a TON of work on her part.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

Acabado said:


> Where this came from?
> WTH


Less than 24 hours ago, we were concerned the child would not be his. She has an ACTIVE affair in place, and his repurcussions have been light up to this point.


----------



## PieceOfSky

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Less than 24 hours ago, we were concerned the child would not be his. She has an ACTIVE affair in place, and his repurcussions have been light up to this point.


I'm pretty sure Torn will deal with all the facts in a very deliberate and serious matter soon enough. No one is suggesting everything is okey dokey now that he is the father.

But, out of respect for what he has been going through, I hope he can first breathe a big sigh of relief tonight or however long he needs, to savor the fact he is going to be a dad, and has a possibility of a successful and happy R.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

PieceOfSky said:


> I'm pretty sure Torn will deal with all the facts in a very deliberate and serious matter soon enough. No one is suggesting everything is okey dokey now that he is the father.
> 
> But, out of respect for what he has been going through, I hope he can first breathe a big sigh of relief tonight or however long he needs, to savor the fact he is going to be a dad, and has a possibility of a successful and happy R.


I do not think she can move in until they work through their issue.

It has to be HER idea that the affairs were a dangerous proposition, that she put her husband at risk and NEVER EVER wants to do it again.

If he brings her home and comforts her now, she won't get to make that decision.

She has to completely clear contact with the OM, and i'm not sure anyone who has supported the affair should be talked to during this period of time.

Perhaps she could lie to the OM and tell him the kid is his, to see how he responds. His response may make her even more appreciative of the man she has at home.


----------



## Remains

Daddy long shanks, I don't think you have read the thread.

Torn, I am very happy for you too. And your wife seems very remorseful. You are a lucky man. Not all if us get that.

I know you are thinking more about the exposure question, and I agree with all.points raised. Though I also agree with your reasoning. You do for you ONLY what feels right. If it comes back to bite you then so be it. 

Congratulations!


----------



## Married-Man

TornNBroken said:


> That being said....
> 
> It's my kid :toast:



Awesome Torn, congrats!

So now that paternity is confirmed... did the DNA test confirm maternity as well? :scratchhead:


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

That's good news. I'm glad for you. Congrat's!


----------



## JCD

Okay.

First off, sigh of relief. She wasn't HORRIBLY disrespectful of the marriage, just pretty damn negligent.

This, in comparison, is good news.

So what now? Now, you breath a sigh of relief and sleep.

Tell her pretty soon, if you haven't already. She's under a great deal of stress too. She said 'she was sure' but I think even she would prefer verification.

Because your head is focused on little things like an affair, your job, a new baby, etc, you might not think of some of the little details.

1) secure your evidence. I know your first instinct will be to erase the data and want to pretend this never happened. Well, let me throw your own words back in your face: you can't UNerase the data...but you can always delete it.

This might be a nice event in your marriage. When you finally, FINALLY trust your wife enough to go out by herself for a day or two without you, or your stomach doesn't clench when she's an hour late and she hasn't called. When you finally trust your wife, you two can delete this information together someday.

TODAY IS NOT THAT DAY!

Next up, think about sleeping arrangements. If you are going to R, you should sleep in the same room. You two might have some significant conversations late at night which might help or be very revealing. Sex is up to you, though I can't fault you if you want to hold off on that (suggestion later)

She's already 'suffered' by being separated and on tenterhooks. No need to continue to be mean and it will be harder to hide your estrangement if she has her own bedroom set up. And you pretty much said you want to hide the estrangement.

Legally, in many states, by accepting her back in the house, you are 'forgiving' the adultery, particularly if you sleep with her. This seems pretty irrelevant in your situation, but I thought I'd mention it.


Mentally, I would focus entirely on the baby at first, getting the room in order. The work will fill the mind and the working together on a common goal will be good for both of you.

I'd have her handwrite the details so you can discuss them, as well as discuss her IC and her thinking. See if she can identify where she went off the rails so she can avoid them.

Instead of breaking your back trying to figure it out, ask HER how SHE will make you feel safe and sure that she is being true. If you find her methods inadequate, don't be afraid to tell her so. Whatever methods she chooses, none will be 100 percent, but don't let her phone it in.

Do not be afraid of your anger. It's better than letting it fester.

Be VERY choosy about the MC and IC. With enough education, ANYTHING can be rationalized. If the counselor seems to lean that way, dump them. That night.

When you go to MC, you will find that your bride does NOT think you walk on water. This will be quite the blow to the ego. Accept this. Whether these were significant issues or not, by her perception, they were. Talk out why they aren't a big deal or fix them. 

Can't think of anything else. Good luck.


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

JCD said:


> Okay.
> 
> First off, sigh of relief. She wasn't HORRIBLY disrespectful of the marriage, just pretty damn negligent.
> 
> This, in comparison, is good news.
> 
> So what now? Now, you breath a sigh of relief and sleep.
> 
> Tell her pretty soon, if you haven't already. She's under a great deal of stress too. She said 'she was sure' but I think even she would prefer verification.
> 
> Because your head is focused on little things like an affair, your job, a new baby, etc, you might not think of some of the little details.
> 
> 1) secure your evidence. I know your first instinct will be to erase the data and want to pretend this never happened. Well, let me throw your own words back in your face: you can't UNerase the data...but you can always delete it.
> 
> This might be a nice event in your marriage. When you finally, FINALLY trust your wife enough to go out by herself for a day or two without you, or your stomach doesn't clench when she's an hour late and she hasn't called. When you finally trust your wife, you two can delete this information together someday.
> 
> TODAY IS NOT THAT DAY!
> 
> Next up, think about sleeping arrangements. If you are going to R, you should sleep in the same room. You two might have some significant conversations late at night which might help or be very revealing. Sex is up to you, though I can't fault you if you want to hold off on that (suggestion later)
> 
> She's already 'suffered' by being separated and on tenterhooks. No need to continue to be mean and it will be harder to hide your estrangement if she has her own bedroom set up. And you pretty much said you want to hide the estrangement.
> 
> Legally, in many states, by accepting her back in the house, you are 'forgiving' the adultery, particularly if you sleep with her. This seems pretty irrelevant in your situation, but I thought I'd mention it.
> 
> 
> Mentally, I would focus entirely on the baby at first, getting the room in order. The work will fill the mind and the working together on a common goal will be good for both of you.
> 
> I'd have her handwrite the details so you can discuss them, as well as discuss her IC and her thinking. See if she can identify where she went off the rails so she can avoid them.
> 
> Instead of breaking your back trying to figure it out, ask HER how SHE will make you feel safe and sure that she is being true. If you find her methods inadequate, don't be afraid to tell her so. Whatever methods she chooses, none will be 100 percent, but don't let her phone it in.
> 
> Do not be afraid of your anger. It's better than letting it fester.
> 
> Be VERY choosy about the MC and IC. With enough education, ANYTHING can be rationalized. If the counselor seems to lean that way, dump them. That night.
> 
> When you go to MC, you will find that your bride does NOT think you walk on water. This will be quite the blow to the ego. Accept this. Whether these were significant issues or not, by her perception, they were. Talk out why they aren't a big deal or fix them.
> 
> Can't think of anything else. Good luck.


In my approach, I wasn't supporting "punishing" her. It's just a certain sequence things have to go so she can get over it and LET GO of cheating. She has to decide that.

In this scenario she's been safety netted - and I know he's just worrying about making sure she's ok and that the baby is going to be ok.

Her mind has not let go of cheating and that she got away with it with little repurcussions and now the baby is his so she gets to come home, our hero is happy and proud of his wife, which he should be. 

But I'm worried that he's not going to heed the warning of those who know how these situations go, and end up in a worse situation down the road, perhaps with his baby stripped from him...

You know when someone messes up and they realize it, it would be almost like they saw a true live ghost when they look in the mirror and cannot believe it's them.

In the cheaters mindset, they are getting stronger and better at cheating and seperating the realities. I do not think they have "killed" the other reality.

Perhaps if some of the OM suffer consequence, then no one would want to mess with her anymore and she won't be "cool" to cheat with. I'm not saying they have to be beaten down, but if she can recognize it was an attack on her family, and become snitch on these OM or something like this, that's not going to be "cool", word will get out and no one will want to play with her like this.

In all kindness, I just wanted him to use his brain and not his heart. Perhaps timing can be used in this portion of the recovery to help her to get into the right mindset to give the relationship a fair and true chance.

In my opinion she never lost anything so she still doesn't realize what she had...


----------



## DaddyLongShanks

Dude just be patient and think through how if your going to take your household back how you are going to preserve it this time. She has to kill that side that will cheat on you, she has to want to do that very badly. To never hurt anyone like that again.


----------



## Shaggy

Now you need the postnuptial agreement in place.


----------



## jim123

Torn,

Great news and I am sure a load off your mind. Take a little break from everything.


----------



## carpenoctem

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Torn, just going by the way life generally plays its games, one could wager that the child will be yours.
> 
> When a human shows the will to do the right / good thing even if it’s the harder choice, Providence usually pegs the weight heavier on the other side, testing him/her even more.
> 
> Or, if I were a believer, I would say God cares more about that child right now, than he/she does about you. So he/she might fiddle with the test.
> 
> I hope he/she does not.


God *did* fiddle, I guess.

Maybe he/she also has a script.

Congratulations, Torn.

And best of luck for a realistic, meaningful Reconciliation.

Please take care not to be blinded by the euphoria, and rug-sweep things.


----------



## MarriedTex

Congrats Torn. You will have a child.

Now, the question is: Can you have a wife, as well? Make a list of what she needs to do to restore trust. Digital Transparancy? Marriage Counseling? Meaningful apology? What are her consequences in this?

Best of luck to you and your family.


----------



## LongWalk

Torn, your wife did come and confess. She even brought up the old infidelity. Signs that she wanted to come clean. IC seems really important.

Happy that you get to become a dad. Good luck!


----------



## sandc

Congrats Torn. Catch your breath now. Bring her home and talk it out.


----------



## lordmayhem

Well, this has to be some kind of TAM record. From initial post on DDay, April 11, to going into R in 14 days. Awesome.

Congratulations on your successful R. :toast:


----------



## Chaparral

Here is a post that might help you out. Do not let her know you come here for advice/help. Print this and go over it with her. MC is almost always recommended. MC seems to be a minefield however. Make sure any MC is familiar with Shirley Glass' work. If you go to IC make sure the counselor is conversant in infidelity AND PTSD. Very little is more traumatic that being cheated on.

It is important to read this with her so you can judge her reactions.



_Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always._


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## BWBill

Congratulations Torn!

I have two kids and love them to death.

Sincerely hope that you and your wife live happily ever after.


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## Chaparral

I hope you realize to make this work, you have a lot to do. You have to become the Torn Detective Agency, " We Deal In Protection".

For quite a while you have to keylog computers. GPS cars and phone. Keep track of texts, emails. VARs in place. Meet emotional needs of three people. Work out, work. Quite frankly, I would not let her have a phone that could not be keylogged.

All media has to have 100% transparency............both ways. TAM doesn't count as it comes under the quasi counseling clause. ;p

But....................that is nothng compared to being a full time dad, I hope you don't throw like a girl.


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## aug

lordmayhem said:


> Well, this has to be some kind of TAM record. From initial post on DDay, April 11, to going into R in 14 days. Awesome.
> 
> Congratulations on your successful R. :toast:



So, a road to Damascus experience in 14 days for her?


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## PieceOfSky

lordmayhem said:


> Well, this has to be some kind of TAM record. From initial post on DDay, April 11, to going into R in 14 days. Awesome.
> 
> Congratulations on your successful R. :toast:


That seems to be a an attempt at sarcasm. Is it?

If so, what exactly has been said that makes you think such sarcasm would be helpful to OP?


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## Cabsy

Congratulations on the child, Torn. I wish it hadn't happened this way, but a blessing is a blessing regardless of how it comes about. I wish you the best of luck in reconciliation and raising this child together. A story this bad needs a happy ending.

RE: Road to Damascus - Might just be making the point that there is a long road ahead to a successful R. He had his eyes opened, but his conversion has just begun. This has been a very traumatic event and until yesterday the possibility of reconciliation was up in the air. Torn may be relieved, but we all know he's going to have ups and downs.

As terrible as all of this discovery process has been, think of what is still ahead: His wife needs to get her problems truly sorted out, she needs to stay dedicated to Torn and not stray again for the rest of her life, they need to work together openly and honestly to solve issues in the present and stop more from popping up in the future, Torn needs to stay vigilant and eventually regain some trust in her, they need to get through pregnancy and then raise this child, etc...


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## Will_Kane

She has a lot of problems with boundaries and is a serial cheater.

Reconciliation is not going to be easy.

For many, the first child completely changes the marriage, no more going out whenever you want, doing whatever you please, always having to consider the child. Romance and passion can take a backseat to dirty diapers.

Add to that the recent discovery of the serial cheating, the crushing blow of going from a man who found out that he and his faithful wife are going to be first-time parents, to that his serial-cheating wife may be having another man's baby and is telling the other man how safe and happy the other man makes her and lying to her husband about it, to finding out that the baby really is his and his serial-cheating wife saying she wants to be with her husband and only her husband for the rest of her life, despite some fairly recent evidence to the contrary.

This certainly is a lot to digest and no doubt will lead to much greater of a "rollercoaster" of emotions than the typical adultery usually posted on this forum.

You've decide to reconcile, but don't get your hopes up that contact between your wife and other man has ended or will stay ended. Other man expressed deep feelings for your wife, how sincere he was we don't know, but your wife probably thinks he was, and your wife expressed deep feelings for the other man, so once the initial storm passes and she feels comfortable again, she may contact him or respond to his contact, if they ever stopped being in contact in the first place.


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## Suspecting

Seems the OP has been banned.


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## lordmayhem

*Re: Re: Just found out...need advice *



PieceOfSky said:


> That seems to be a an attempt at sarcasm. Is it?
> 
> If so, what exactly has been said that makes you think such sarcasm would be helpful to OP?


Get over yourself. Someone posts congratulations and you see it as sarcasm? Stop making it more than it is.


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## zoey419

if you love her and can't live without her stay, if not leave~ it hurts the kids when they have known you there... some women cheat for all kinds of reasons.. but let her know if it happens again.. EVER .. You will be gone~ good luck.. hugs


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## PieceOfSky

lordmayhem said:


> Get over yourself. Someone posts congratulations and you see it as sarcasm? Stop making it more than it is.


Over myself? I don't understand what problem you are alleging I have.

I asked, because it wasn't clear to me whether you were being sarcastic or not, and I thought, since I don't know you, and since this medium makes it easy to be misunderstood, then I thought it would be simplest and polite to ask.


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## larry.gray

Suspecting said:


> Seems the OP has been banned.


WTF? Today of all days?


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## northland

Maybe the whole thing was made up?


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## Acabado

Maybe he PMd someone out of line or posted something breaking the guidelines (these posts use to be deleted).

Hope he's OK. Wish him luck.


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## PieceOfSky

northland said:


> Maybe the whole thing was made up?


He seemed very sincere and there were no holes or discrepancies in his story, over a long period of time, that I ever noticed. 

He and his pain seemed and seems very authentic to me.


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## PieceOfSky

larry.gray said:


> WTF? Today of all days?


Do the powers that be ever give a second chance, and lift a ban immediately, when the circumstances are extreme and very time-sensitive?

Would he be able to still PM the level headed sages (not me) here that surely would be willing to offer any input he desires?


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## aug

Cabsy said:


> RE: Road to Damascus - Might just be making the point that there is a long road ahead to a successful R. He had his eyes opened, but his conversion has just begun. This has been a very traumatic event and until yesterday the possibility of reconciliation was up in the air. Torn may be relieved, but we all know he's going to have ups and downs.


No, not for him. For her. If she doesn't change her core, she'll do it again.


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## aug

TornNBroken posted in other threads. Those seemed to have been removed.

Poster(s) get banned at times when they are found to be fake or have multiple ids.



Or, maybe his cheating wife found this thread and took over the id...


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## bfree

Hopefully the mods will come here and let us know if we should continue to offer advice or if this entire thread was a hoax.


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## Machiavelli

sandc said:


> Congrats Torn. Catch your breath now. Bring her home and talk it out.


Sandc, you're avatar is giving away your age. Sky King, baby! That takes me back.


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## kenmoore14217

Penny was hot!!


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## just got it 55

Remains said:


> Daddy long shanks, I don't think you have read the thread.
> 
> Torn, I am very happy for you too. And your wife seems very remorseful. You are a lucky man. Not all if us get that.
> 
> I know you are thinking more about the exposure question, and I agree with all.points raised. Though I also agree with your reasoning. You do for you ONLY what feels right. If it comes back to bite you then so be it.
> 
> Congratulations!


Now at least they have a chance


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

A cereal cheater that's pregnant and the BS wasn't sure it was his.

When I see something like this, I automatically start wondering how true any of it is, if true at all.

But then I realize that in this day and age, it's not only feasible, it's probably allot more common than I'd like to think it is.

I feel like I was born about 100 years too late...


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## sandc

I'm in my 40's but Sky King rocked. And Penny was hot.


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## PieceOfSky

bfree said:


> Hopefully the mods will come here and let us know if we should continue to offer advice or if this entire thread was a hoax.


I wish they would let us know! Certainly, one or a few of OP's claims made could be tested, given his IP address(es).

Has anyone experienced "confirmed hoaxes" here before?
Do the moderators or site owner(s) ever chime in and tell us what they know?

At this point, personally, I don't know what to think. It could have been a hoax. It did not seem to be at the time. But, I'll confess the time I had my wife's newly discovered burner phone in my pocket, I almost believed her when she said it didn't exist


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## carpenoctem

Torn, a Troll? Really?

Soon to be read, on TAM:

*Last Friday, I found out my wife was having an affair with a Troll,… …I insisted that she go NC immediately, and delete all her posts to him,… …but she took it underground, and continued from another IP Address… …Now she is caught in the KW Fog (Keyword Wife Fog), and also gave me the ILYBICPIYTA (I Love You But I Cannot Post In Your Thread Anymore) speech.

How do I get out of this menage a troll?*


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## sandc

Ping.

How's it going Torn?


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## Chaparral

Yes there have been several big threads here that were confirmed to be trolls. I think there are three big ones that didn't get caught and I think there is a big one going on now. 

I didn't suspect this one, do we know it is bogus or just speculation.


Most people get banned for making angry retorts.


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## Almostrecovered

most troll threads are deleted


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## TornNBroken

Hey guys, I'm back : )

So no, I'm not a troll. You really think I could/would spend all that time making everything up? Really?

I said a naughty word in another thread cause I strongly disagreed with the advice another poster was giving, so they blocked me for a week.

Anyways.....

Wife is home, we are doing a lot better than I thought we would. She's been a R stud so far. We found a counselor and are having our first MC session this upcoming week. So yeah, things are pretty good considering. Still have some tough moments during the day when my mind wanders, but we've been able to be affectionate and playful and joke around with each other, and I didn't think that would happen this quickly. Should I be worried about moving to fast? I mean, I'm trying to be very aware of rug sweeping, and so far we've been setting aside an hour each night to talk about A stuff, but outside of that, we are just trying to act "normal."

Thanks for all your concern and advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Your story was to detailed to be a casual work of fiction
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PastOM

Tolstoy would be proud Torn - very happy that you are upbeat today.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

TornNBroken said:


> Hey guys, I'm back : )
> 
> So no, I'm not a troll. You really think I could/would spend all that time making everything up? Really?
> 
> I said a naughty word in another thread cause I strongly disagreed with the advice another poster was giving, so they blocked me for a week.
> 
> Anyways.....
> 
> Wife is home, we are doing a lot better than I thought we would. She's been a R stud so far. We found a counselor and are having our first MC session this upcoming week. So yeah, things are pretty good considering. Still have some tough moments during the day when my mind wanders, but we've been able to be affectionate and playful and joke around with each other, and I didn't think that would happen this quickly. Should I be worried about moving to fast? I mean, I'm trying to be very aware of rug sweeping, and so far we've been setting aside an hour each night to talk about A stuff, but outside of that, we are just trying to act "normal."
> 
> Thanks for all your concern and advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Glad to hear from you Torn. I think it is all about what you are willing to accept. Personally, I am worried about how easy it is to rugsweep. The problem with rugsweeping as I see it is simply that it increases the likelihood of her doing it again. Think about any bad behavior that you've ever had ... anything really. You may realize it is wrong and detrimental and you may stop it. The likelihood that it stops permanently depends a great deal on your assessment of the risk or severity of consequences. 

Let's say you are a smoker. Everybody knows the consequences of smoking over the long term are bad, in fact, deadly. Let's say you manage to quit. I would guess most people don't quit until there are some consequences ... you start feeling bad or you develop a cough or feel it in your lungs, get heart palpitations ... something that informs them that the consequences are real. Now, let's say you quit and any health problems you had go away to the point that they aren't daily reminders of those consequences. You are sitting in a bar (one of the few that allow smoking these days), you have a couple of drinks and the person you are talking to is puffing away and offers you a cigarette. Because the consequences are no longer real in your mind, your at a weak moment being under the influence of a few drinks, you remember how good it feels to take a drag on a cigarette and you miss the taste ... you have a decent probability of saying ... what the heck, what's one cigarette going to hurt? Next thing you know, you are "borrowing" a second and a third. 

I'm not saying that how you are approaching this is wrong ... just that I'm concerned. If everything returns to normal then I think it is easy for her to forget that this type of behavior has real, life-changing consequences.


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## Will_Kane

TornNBroken said:


> Hey guys, I'm back : )
> 
> So no, I'm not a troll. You really think I could/would spend all that time making everything up? Really?
> 
> I said a naughty word in another thread cause I strongly disagreed with the advice another poster was giving, so they blocked me for a week.
> 
> Anyways.....
> 
> Wife is home, we are doing a lot better than I thought we would. She's been a R stud so far. We found a counselor and are having our first MC session this upcoming week. So yeah, things are pretty good considering. Still have some tough moments during the day when my mind wanders, but we've been able to be affectionate and playful and joke around with each other, and I didn't think that would happen this quickly. Should I be worried about moving to fast? I mean, I'm trying to be very aware of rug sweeping, and so far we've been setting aside an hour each night to talk about A stuff, but outside of that, we are just trying to act "normal."
> 
> Thanks for all your concern and advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, let her be the one moving fast and doing the work. You probably are going to go through a lot of emotions, I would imagine relief and a little elation that you think you are getting your life back intact are what you are feeling now, almost like you've won a great prize, but that will settle and you will get back into the routine sooner or later and then you might start to wonder what is so great about what you've won.

It's a fine line to try to reconcile, no doubt you come up with a lot of thoughts, you told her you want to try and if she's doing same you don't want to be hurtful with things you say, but then again you don't want to have to swallow all of the pain that she caused.

It's something you just have to feel your way through. This site has a lot of info for sniffing out the affair and busting up the affair, but getting over it and moving on seems very largely dependent on the effort your spouse puts into it. Not much you can do, and if you do too much, even because you think you want to, it doesn't work.


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## RyanBingham

Glad you are back. I was wondering what happened.


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## Will_Kane

This is from a poster named marduk. Use what you can for yourself.

What I've Learned in the Past Year - A good news story 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed? Me. Here’s what I learned:

1. Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

3. Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

4. Do my own thing. I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

5. Be a father to our children. Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

6. Get some buddies. Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

7. Fight different. Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

8. Act from a place of strength. I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

9. Be decisive. Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

10. Know what I want from life. This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

11. Do more macho stuff. Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a man and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.

Thanks for everything!


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## bfree

Torn

Glad you're back. Here's one question for you. What is normal?

Is it the normal you have now where you two are intimate and talk and seem to be getting along? Or the normal that allowed her to stray. And remember this last affair was not the first time she strayed. She also admitted she really likes attention from other men. So, what is being done to make sure this doesn't happen again? What is being done to get to the root of her attention seeking? What is being done to make sure her boundaries are stronger? Those are the questions that really need to be asked and followed up on. You don't want to go through this again now that you are going to have children in the mix.


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## Wiserforit

TornNBroken said:


> Should I be worried about moving to fast?


Just be aware that many go through later rounds of pretty deep depression, sometimes years later, for whatever reason it gets triggered.

With a person who has fidelity problems that went this deep, you can't expect whatever issues she has to just vanish. There is some serious long term work and vigilance that needs to be done here.


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## thatbpguy

People who betray will always have that propensity to because it was a 'rush' for them. Very exciting and risky. It is an addiction and most, but not all, addicts fall off the wagon.

So a careful set of long term monitoring and other checks are a fair suggestion. I mean, I know one doesn't want to live their life checking up on their spouse but like any addict there has to be continuous accountability.

And it also never hurts to look at yourself and commit to being a better spouse. 

I hope the best for you, I really do.


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## LongWalk

One of the early incidents of infidelity was a bit like rape. That may have been a blow to her self esteem that weakened her. By being strong and recovering from your trauma you are setting her an example. She must be inspired to strengthen herself. Have you read Cabsy's story?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray

TornNBroken said:


> So no, I'm not a troll. You really think I could/would spend all that time making everything up? Really?


I didn't think you were a troll because you were came off as reasonable, level headed and intelligent.

We've had some trolls here who spent and UNBELIEVABLE amount of time creating stories as detailed as yours. Most of them involved a guy being abused by either his WS or the OM. They went on for months and had great detail.


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## larry.gray

Welcome back.

I made the suggestion once already, but now that you're committed to R, I suggest you go hang out here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html

Wayward wives are a bit shy elsewhere on TAM, but feel safe there. They and some of the other betrayed spouses will be supportive.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Just found out...need advice *



larry.gray said:


> Welcome back.
> 
> I made the suggestion once already, but now that you're committed to R, I suggest you go hang out here:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html
> 
> Wayward wives are a bit shy elsewhere on TAM, but feel safe there. They and some of the other betrayed spouses will be supportive.


Yes, no WS is ever made to feel unwelcome or insulted in any way on that thread. Speaking as one who posts there frequently I can honestly say that your wife would learn quite a bit and receive much support. Both BS and WS learn and grow together. I think that thread had really helped couples work through difficulties and strengthened reconciliations.


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## JCD

bfree said:


> Yes, no WS is ever made to feel unwelcome or insulted in any way on that thread.


Yes...they reserve that for all the other threads. 

I would NOT bring your wife to this site. Allow it as your place of refuge, so you can bounce things off of us. I've seen it before and it is seldom a good idea to bring both people to the site. EI and ChangingMe will disagree, I'm sure.

Hmm.

Torn, you are a Christian and it sounds like you are from the Protestant variety. I've been there too. They pound out the concept of 'grace' quite hard. Humans can do NOTHING to 'deserve' what God did for us; so it has to be a gift.

And as an example of his generosity of spirit, Christians should be the same to others.

Well...my theological thoughts have expanded a bit since then, and there is the concept of 'penance' which I think bears some consideration. Many non-Catholic Christians disagree with me on this matter and your mileage may very. 

Essentially, while the 'grace' which removes the sins of the world from our heart is 'free', we should not take it for granted (as too many people are wont to with free things) and try to ACT like we are at least trying to put a small downpayment there. My son worked his butt off to earn half his X Box. My daughter always trys to pay her way for little snacks around the house. The youngest takes it for granted. It's human nature.

Here is the paradox though. It needs to come from inside the sinner. You cannot impose it upon them for it to be effective. This has nothing to do with God per se. It is a human thing to express their own regret, to allow them to feel a sense of personal cleansing.

I feel you have been rushing to put everything behind you. This _couldn't possibly_ have happened to you, so you need to fix this defect in reality STAT! You need your career, the wonderful true devoted loving wife and the 2.5 children. That's what you've worked for your whole life.

But now you have emails...

This should anger you. You need to talk that stuff out (and maybe you are. Here is a quick metric: how many times have you two had to stop your 'hour talks' because of painful emotions? If you haven't at all, you aren't digging deeply enough)

There are several rituals which might help symbolically. Do not laugh at them as superstitious.

One was a ritual cleansing: where you shower together and YOU cleanse HER all this stuff from your life. But I think that is premature.

Here is one which is striking: During WWII, in Vichey France, some of the women...well...they were hungry or had an eye to their own self advancement. Anyway, SOME women slept with their German occupiers and gave them comfort. This, needless to say, riled the people up. And 'some' was a bit of a misnomer. Too many to have executions. It would have been ugly.

So the authorities shaved their heads. They had to bear the shame for a while, but when their hair grew back in, all would be forgiven...at least in theory. Every day these women had to look in a mirror to see the consequences of their actions.

Maybe this seems puntative and mean. I don't know and share them only as a way to spark some ideas of your own. Words are words. You have bent over backwards to shield her from her shame.

What is she going to do in gratitude? Do what she SHOULD have been doing all along? How...nice...


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## bfree

JCD, I must take you to task. The people who regularly post in the Reconciliation thread to my knowledge do not insult or otherwise drive away any posters on TAM and I challenge you to prove otherwise. While I have taken some to task when I feel they aren't being honest with themselves in no way can that be considered insulting. And I daresay the same can be said of others on that thread. And your presence is notably absent from that thread so I'll leave it at that. I do agree that Torn's wife should not be thrown to the wolves on TAM so my suggestion is that she might read other threads but confine her posts to the thread where she won't be judged or harried. If Torn wishes to keep TAM as a personal refuge that is his right and I certainly wouldn't disagree.

I also vehemently disagree with your suggestion that Torn's wife shave her head as punishment for her affair. That is purely punitive and offers no constructive lesson nor does it present appropriate consequences for her actions. I do believe in some cases shame is an effective deterrent for future immoral behavior but let's keep some perspective in what is constructive and what is vindictive. I have argued that having her admit her affair to family and friends might be considered and why I think it would be constructive. And as a Christian I also agree with you that churches have become soft as it pertains to moral behavior. But some punishments can do more harm than good.


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## Shaggy

I've witnessed tremendous support given here to WW who have come clean and actually worked at fixing what they chose to break.

But TAM doesn't offer encouragement on cheating or let cheaters getaway with coming here and telling lies. We know all about the stories cheaters dream up and how they will claim just friends up to the evidence going onto the table.

When a WS actually is honest they've been treated with respect, when they've continued with fanciful lies, they've been called out,

mrs.Mathias being a great example of a WS who originally came her continuing to lie and got called out on it.


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## LongWalk

Having TAM as a resource unknown to you wife might be one way to go. There is no need to rush to a decision for the moment. At this point getting through pregnancy ought to be your priority. Your willingness to R should have made an great impression on her. To have spent days thinking about the possibility that the baby was not yours will have been tremendous punishment.

Merely preventing cheating will not resolve the self esteem issues that caused her to cheat. She needs to feel good about herself and an IC counselor whom you both trust might help her a lot. Maybe she can find good support in church.

Non-exposure now turns out to be very wise and mature. I don't think she could have survived the shame.

Perhaps you should ask her to write a short letter to you in which she outlines her transgressions while adding a sentence or two expressing her commitment to the future. You should both have a signed copy. At some point in the future, maybe 10 years from now, you can read it together.

Perhaps you should let choose the baby's name, finding some name that expresses the qualities that will help you survive this ordeal.

Have you read Cabsy's thread?


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## WyshIknew

JCD said:


> Yes...they reserve that for all the other threads.
> 
> I would NOT bring your wife to this site. Allow it as your place of refuge, so you can bounce things off of us. I've seen it before and it is seldom a good idea to bring both people to the site. EI and ChangingMe will disagree, I'm sure.
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> Torn, you are a Christian and it sounds like you are from the Protestant variety. I've been there too. They pound out the concept of 'grace' quite hard. Humans can do NOTHING to 'deserve' what God did for us; so it has to be a gift.
> 
> And as an example of his generosity of spirit, Christians should be the same to others.
> 
> Well...my theological thoughts have expanded a bit since then, and there is the concept of 'penance' which I think bears some consideration. Many non-Catholic Christians disagree with me on this matter and your mileage may very.
> 
> Essentially, while the 'grace' which removes the sins of the world from our heart is 'free', we should not take it for granted (as too many people are wont to with free things) and try to ACT like we are at least trying to put a small downpayment there. My son worked his butt off to earn half his X Box. My daughter always trys to pay her way for little snacks around the house. The youngest takes it for granted. It's human nature.
> 
> Here is the paradox though. It needs to come from inside the sinner. You cannot impose it upon them for it to be effective. This has nothing to do with God per se. It is a human thing to express their own regret, to allow them to feel a sense of personal cleansing.
> 
> I feel you have been rushing to put everything behind you. This _couldn't possibly_ have happened to you, so you need to fix this defect in reality STAT! You need your career, the wonderful true devoted loving wife and the 2.5 children. That's what you've worked for your whole life.
> 
> But now you have emails...
> 
> This should anger you. You need to talk that stuff out (and maybe you are. Here is a quick metric: how many times have you two had to stop your 'hour talks' because of painful emotions? If you haven't at all, you aren't digging deeply enough)
> 
> There are several rituals which might help symbolically. Do not laugh at them as superstitious.
> 
> One was a ritual cleansing: where you shower together and YOU cleanse HER all this stuff from your life. But I think that is premature.
> 
> Here is one which is striking: During WWII, in Vichey France, some of the women...well...they were hungry or had an eye to their own self advancement. Anyway, SOME women slept with their German occupiers and gave them comfort. This, needless to say, riled the people up. And 'some' was a bit of a misnomer. Too many to have executions. It would have been ugly.
> 
> *So the authorities shaved their heads. They had to bear the shame for a while, but when their hair grew back in, all would be forgiven...at least in theory. Every day these women had to look in a mirror to see the consequences of their actions.*
> 
> Maybe this seems puntative and mean. I don't know and share them only as a way to spark some ideas of your own. Words are words. You have bent over backwards to shield her from her shame.
> 
> What is she going to do in gratitude? Do what she SHOULD have been doing all along? How...nice...


Where I live some women 'fraternised' with the Germans during WW2. The ones left alive today are still known as 'Jerry Bags' it was a stigma that followed them all their lives.


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## JCD

@ Bfree

First, I said that OTHER threads were where waywards were lambasted and sometimes attacked. Didn't say that one. And at however many thousands of pages, no, I don't post on that thread.

Second, I do not suggest shaving her head. But symbolically a short haircut or some such.

@ WishIKnew it. Which is why I said 'in theory'. I guessed, but did not know that this wasn't so much about forgiveness as allowing the French to properly identify the guilty. Seems it also happened on Gurnsey. So I learned something.

Since Torn has NOT revealed to anyone except the friend of his wife, any tonsorial changes his wife makes and their meanings are strictly between the two of them.

Heck, maybe he should just give her a nice hard spanking and get it out of both their systems.

Symbols are important. Give her a spanking, have her cut her hair short (not shaved). By the time it grows back, they'll have had time to figure out what's going on in their life and how to move on. Then a nice ritual bath or shower of forgiveness and celebrate with a weekend away together.

As an added bonus, short hair will be easier for a pregger to maintain AND will drop her sex rank a point or two which will make him feel slightly more secure.

I wish them the best of luck...and a bit of magic. They'll need it.


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## bfree

Then I apologize for the misunderstanding.


----------



## JCD

Shaggy said:


> I've witnessed tremendous support given here to WW who have come clean and actually worked at fixing what they chose to break.
> 
> But TAM doesn't offer encouragement on cheating or let cheaters getaway with coming here and telling lies. We know all about the stories cheaters dream up and how they will claim just friends up to the evidence going onto the table.
> 
> When a WS actually is honest they've been treated with respect, when they've continued with fanciful lies, they've been called out,
> 
> mrs.Mathias being a great example of a WS who originally came her continuing to lie and got called out on it.


I have also read TAMers who told, DIRECTLY TOLD Waywards that they were awful people and they would always be awful people. That they were absolutely incapable of change.

So...some people call that 'telling the truth'. And yet I missed seeing their halo on their avatar.

These are pixels on a screen. Considering the little misunderstanding I had with Bfree, I am suddenly supposed to believe in these magic TAM powers to discern the truth through pixels, poor grammar, and the confused feelings of the posters?

I will see you Mrs. Matt and point out that Changingme an EI were both lambasted, Tears was torn into and Annie continues to get battered for the crime of being honest with her feelings: that he husband treats her like crap and she prefers a person who doesn't.

For this, she's called evil and remorseless instead of confused and seeking an easy answer to a crappy situation.

Yeah...whatever.

For all it's stunning work for BS, it isn't much help for waywards. How many of them delete their threads or never come back? I guess it's just because they are ALL remorseless....:scratchhead:

Theadjack over


----------

