# Curious



## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

I see a few people on here who seem absolutely convinced that there is no way that sex can possibly be something needed for some people to maintain a bond. I was wondering if that is a true feeling or a visceral response to the immediate attacks on the LD spouse by a large portion of the comunity?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

It is true people can maintain a bond without sex, for example I have maintained a bond with some friends and family members and I have never Shared Sex with them. So those few people that you are referring to are not wrong, in thinking that a bond can be maintained sans sex.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Personal said:


> It is true people can maintain a bond without sex, for example I have maintained a bond with some friends and family members and I have never Shared Sex with them. So those few people that you are referring to are not wrong, in thinking that a bond can be maintained sans sex.


This is a completely different bond though. I think someone wanting to compare those bonds are being purposely obtuse.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

My Dear Hubby passed away in 2017 at 59 years old from heart failure. It took 5 years. The last year of his life we loved physically by hugging and kissing but he couldn’t do PIV. We were able to maintain our marital bond joyfully. 

Are you suggesting that a couple can not maintain intimacy without sex? What about those who serve our country and lose limbs or are injured? They can’t stay happily married? I beg to differ!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Generally, sexual intimacy is an important part of building and maintaining a strong emotional bond in marriage. It is however, not the only thing that is required. Non-sexual intimacy is equally important, especially to women.

A lot of people mistakenly think that when a person loses sexual desire for their spouse that it's due to them being LD. That's not the case. Most spouses how lose sexual desire are not LD sexually. They lose the emotional connection to their spouse and therefore lose the desire to have sex with their spouse.

Another misunderstanding on the topic that most people have is that for some reason most think that in the vast majority of cases, it's the wife who loses interest in sex. That's not true. Men are as likely to chose to make the marriage sexless as women are. 

If this happens in a marriage it can be repaired fairly easily if both spouses are willing to work together.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

LD(?) spouse just doesn't want sex with their partner any more.
Different if person not wanting sex is old or ill.

There are two reasons for living with a woman ...
1) You want sex.
2) You miss your mom.

I'm a 1) guy but I've met plenty of 2) guys.
If I didn't want sex, I'd prefer to live alone or house share with a male friend.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

i know a woman that lived with her cats , she had a bond with them but not sex , 
room mates can have a good bond without sex even same sex room mates , 
a lot depends on what you call a bond


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

To be fair to the op I think he means the withdrawal of sexual activity by one partner in a relationship for reasons other than health or physical disability. 
If my wife decided tomorrow that sex isn’t going to happen very often in the future just because, then I would divorce her. I would still love her and I wouldn’t cheat but I wouldn’t be prepared to live in a sexless relationship. 
And she knows this.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

I think the hostility comes from situations where one spouse denies the other sexual intimacy, while expecting fidelity and for the denied spouse to be ok with the arrangement


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## Noman (Oct 17, 2014)

frenchpaddy said:


> i know a woman that lived with her cats , she had a bond with them but not sex ,
> room mates can have a good bond without sex even same sex room mates ,
> a lot depends on what you call a bond


Cat Ladies are _entirely _different!


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

there is no simple response to this , we get posters that say they love their husband or wife but don't feel the need for sex any more , we get people that say they love but then start a list of things they don't like about the other person 
sometimes it looks like cheating themselves into thinking they still love the other


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> My Dear Hubby passed away in 2017 at 59 years old from heart failure. It took 5 years. The last year of his life we loved physically by hugging and kissing but he couldn’t do PIV. We were able to maintain our marital bond joyfully.
> 
> Are you suggesting that a couple can not maintain intimacy without sex? What about those who serve our country and lose limbs or are injured? They can’t stay happily married? I beg to differ!


I am sorry for your loss. 
It was more of an honest question, rather than a suggestion. Although this was the type of answer I wa looking for. Well sort of at least. A solid reason for this belief.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Generally, sexual intimacy is an important part of building and maintaining a strong emotional bond in marriage. It is however, not the only thing that is required. Non-sexual intimacy is equally important, especially to women.
> 
> A lot of people mistakenly think that when a person loses sexual desire for their spouse that it's due to them being LD. That's not the case. Most spouses how lose sexual desire are not LD sexually. They lose the emotional connection to their spouse and therefore lose the desire to have sex with their spouse.
> 
> ...


This thought process is close to mine. 

I saw a post earlier that popped up from a little while back where a LD wife came on and knew something was wrong because she lost sexual interest in her husband. The amount of people who jumped on this woman so quickly made me sick. It got me wondering. If this was why some people on here who in other posts seem to be intelligent and empathetic would assume to know the needs and feelings of someone else. I just figured it was a way at slapping back.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm not trying to insult anyone here. I try to understand things from other people's point of view. I understand why the people who jump on the LD spouse do it on here( I disagree with them doing it but I understand why ). What I don't understand is how so much certainty can be put into judging what someone else needs to feel bonded to another.

Myself I went through a long low point of intimacy with my wife. I obviously didn't like it whatsoever, and it did diminish the bond. It was most hurtful that she felt there was no problem because it wasn't HER problem, while anytime she had a problem or something was lacking then it was our problem. To make a very long story short, we found mental illness is involved. We have a bit of an understanding now and it works for us. Not saying that it would work for everyone but we both try to be more understanding of how the other feels.( I know I don't always convey my thoughts in a coherent manner and I apologize for not being as clear as I try to be).


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

We are all different. Some people can maintain the bond without sex, others can't (myself included). Also, it depends on how much sex is important to you. If the LD spouse is not prepared to compromise or meeting the needs of the partner, and sex is very important to you, there is only one outcome.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uphillbattle said:


> I'm not trying to insult anyone here. I try to understand things from other people's point of view. I understand why the people who jump on the LD spouse do it on here( I disagree with them doing it but I understand why ). What I don't understand is how so much certainty can be put into judging what someone else needs to feel bonded to another.
> 
> Myself I went through a long low point of intimacy with my wife. I obviously didn't like it whatsoever, and it did diminish the bond. It was most hurtful that she felt there was no problem because it wasn't HER problem, while anytime she had a problem or something was lacking then it was our problem. To make a very long story short, we found mental illness is involved. We have a bit of an understanding now and it works for us. Not saying that it would work for everyone but we both try to be more understanding of how the other feels.( I know I don't always convey my thoughts in a coherent manner and I apologize for not being as clear as I try to be).


There are a lot of moving parts and nuances to this. Relationships can be very complex and there is no one-size-fits-all. 

IMHO romance/sexuality is what makes our special someone special and what separates that relationship from all the rest. If the sexuality is gone, then that person becomes just another friend, just another roommate, just another person at the dinner table over at family get togethers and sometimes just another person on the street. 

I think where some of hostility and animosity you refer comes from was stated by @Jamieboy in post #9. 

The bad vibes come from when one party declares the sexual component of the relationship over, but then expects the other to completely accept that and continue with all the other aspects of the relationship as if everything was just hunky dory. 

I'm sorry, if you expect me to rub your feet and back at the end of a hard day, change your flat tires alongside the road in the rain, go out into the night to get you diarrhea medicine, cuddle you and tell you how much I love and care for you, unclog your toilet and kill spiders for you, you're going to need to be addressing my needs as well. 

If you expect me to be sexually exclusive to you and expect me to love and cherish only you, then you need to be meeting those needs in me as well. 

I don't have contempt or resentment for people who are not sexually attracted to me. 99.9999% of the Earth's population are not attracted to me. No hard feelings. 

But if you expect me to provide you with all the trimmings and all the benefits of a full-service relationship but you wouldn't touch me with a 10 foot pole - yeah, sorry, that ain't gonna work. 

And unlike many here, I do not believe that age, health or medical condition is an excuse or exemption for denying your partner physical intimacy. Yes, those things may prevent actual PIV intercourse, but PIV is just one facet of a huge spectrum of physical intimacy. There are countless other things that can be done to show physical affection and intimacy. Many times it is the thought and effort that count.

Personally, I would much rather get a HJ from someone who was sincerely desirous of me and wanted to touch me and be with me than someone who says, "OK fine, make it quick, my show is coming on in ten minutes" and then spread their legs for me to climb on and use their body to masturbate with. 

So the animosity and resentment you are picking up is not from not having sex per se. One can have a loss of emotional connection and loss of warm and close and intimate feelings from lack of sex, but that is not often the root of the hostility. The hostility and resentment is from the rejection and not trying to meet the other's needs while still expecting the other to continue providing all the other benefits and expecting the other to continue joyfully providing them.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> There are two reasons for living with a woman ...
> 1) You want sex.
> 2) You miss your mom.


I'm going to go a step further and say that if a man is with woman but is not wanting a sex life with her - he simply wants a live-in maid and Wife Appliance and probably a surrogate mommy to wash his underwear and sort his socks and feed him. 

There's no other explanation for man to continue living with a woman he does not want to have sex with, unless he is getting the sex somewhere else. 

I had a couple female roommates over the years in my young and single days. But I had girlfriends that I had sex with and my roommates had boyfriends that they had sex with. We were never posing as a couple.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> I'm not trying to insult anyone here. I try to understand things from other people's point of view. I understand why the people who jump on the LD spouse do it on here( I disagree with them doing it but I understand why ). What I don't understand is how so much certainty can be put into judging what someone else needs to feel bonded to another.
> 
> Myself I went through a long low point of intimacy with my wife. I obviously didn't like it whatsoever, and it did diminish the bond. It was most hurtful that she felt there was no problem because it wasn't HER problem, while anytime she had a problem or something was lacking then it was our problem. To make a very long story short, we found mental illness is involved. We have a bit of an understanding now and it works for us. Not saying that it would work for everyone but we both try to be more understanding of how the other feels.( I know I don't always convey my thoughts in a coherent manner and I apologize for not being as clear as I try to be).


The point I was making above, is the fact that many LD spouses, including yours it seems, have the mentality, its YOUR problem. This is the most damaging aspect for the relationship. It shows a total lack of empathy and respect.

I have never written down my story in full, but it was this lack of empathy from my wife that led to our separation. We came back together, eventually, and things are better. But even now I harbour resentment for her conduct. I'm working on myself to let that go, but its hard.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uphillbattle said:


> This thought process is close to mine.
> 
> I saw a post earlier that popped up from a little while back where a LD wife came on and knew something was wrong because she lost sexual interest in her husband. The amount of people who jumped on this woman so quickly made me sick. It got me wondering. If this was why some people on here who in other posts seem to be intelligent and empathetic would assume to know the needs and feelings of someone else. I just figured it was a way at slapping back.


I don't the specific thread you are referring to so can not speak specifically to that. 

I have however read a number of posts on the LL forum on Reddit where LLs get together to commiserate and share their stories with each other and I can tell you that is it enough to make HL's hair stand on end. 

The entitlement of some LLs is enough to make someone being rejected bristle. Many of the LLs post of their disgust and disdain for their partners and how resentful they are that their partners want to have a sex life and how much they dislike their partners........... but yet they go on about how much more time, energy and resources they try to extract out of their HL partners. 

A lot of these LLs that have rejected and denied their partners for YEARS are not simply because they aren't as horny as their partners - THEY TRULY DISLIKE and sometimes even HATE them....... but yet they continue to try to make the HL serve them more and more. 

I'll have to see if I can dig up a thread I posted some time back with excerpts of some of the things the LLs have said, but the disdain and lack of basic human respect and compassion they have for their partners is palpable. But at the same time, they are demanding more and more servitude out of their partners and are using their partner's desire for intimacy as a weapon and like a big carrot dangled just out of reach for their partner to chase. 

Now to fair, often times these LLs have valid complaints and valid reason for losing their attraction and desire for partners. Many of these chronic Dead Bedrooms and Sexless Marriages are truly dysfunctional and disordered and it's not just a matter of one being a bit hornier than the other.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

uphillbattle said:


> I saw a post earlier that popped up from a little while back where a LD wife came on and knew something was wrong because she lost sexual interest in her husband. The amount of people who jumped on this woman so quickly made me sick. It got me wondering. If this was why *some people on here who in other posts seem to be intelligent and empathetic* *would assume to know the needs and feelings of someone else*. I just figured it was a way at slapping back.


Would you please explain a little more specifically what you mean by this...??

Because it sounds like you are making similar assumptions about those posters motives and perspectives.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think people can be bonded without sex. I know I'm certainly bonded to my kids, cats, and close friends. There are different types of emotional bonds and we probably all experience more then one.

A sexual bond is unique and its in a lot of peoples DNA to desire it. I know I do, but if that isn't something one requires then they can live without it and bond over other things.

I do think it's difficult to bond sexually when only one partner feels said bond. I know that while I want a sexual bond I won't be able to have one with a man who doesn't bond sexually.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I'm sorry, if you expect me to rub your feet and back at the end of a hard day, change your flat tires alongside the road in the rain, go out into the night to get you diarrhea medicine, cuddle you and tell you how much I love and care for you, unclog your toilet and kill spiders for you, you're going to need to be addressing my needs as well.


Or not…

When I had the talk with my wife I was like well I mean I totally get it if you don’t want to have sex with me. That’s fine, but that means we’re done here. So either we work on it or that’s it.

I want a wife or girlfriend, not a roommate. Wife/GF package includes regular sex.

Now blame/fault can sit with the HD, LD, or both. In my marriage definitely both, and both of us needed to change behaviors to get things working again. 

Blame the LD is simplistic because although they are the gatekeeper you need consider why they’re keeping the gate shut if you want to fix it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

uphillbattle said:


> I'm not trying to insult anyone here. I try to understand things from other people's point of view. I understand why the people who jump on the LD spouse do it on here( I disagree with them doing it but I understand why ). What I don't understand is how so much certainty can be put into judging what someone else needs to feel bonded to another.
> 
> Myself I went through a long low point of intimacy with my wife. I obviously didn't like it whatsoever, and it did diminish the bond. It was most hurtful that she felt there was no problem because it wasn't HER problem, while anytime she had a problem or something was lacking then it was our problem. To make a very long story short, we found mental illness is involved. We have a bit of an understanding now and it works for us. Not saying that it would work for everyone but we both try to be more understanding of how the other feels.( I know I don't always convey my thoughts in a coherent manner and I apologize for not being as clear as I try to be).


You are posting as a man who worked things out in a satisfactory way because his monogamous partner cared and was willing to be more understanding of how he felt. MOST of the people who are resentful and hurt by a their partner refusing sex don't have that benefit...so you don't know how THAT feels at all, or how you would react.

What you and your partner did and how you worked on finding a solution to this problem is part of what I consider to be the responsibility of being in a monogamous relationship. I wish my partner had felt the same way, and cared about me the same way...instead of shaming me, gaslighting me, and outright bullying and lying to me so he could try to force me to accept a celibate marriage on HIS terms, where I was still expected to perform all the other duties of a wife and take care of all his other needs.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> Would you please explain a little more specifically what you mean by this...??
> 
> Because it sounds like you are making similar assumptions about those posters motives and perspectives.


I try not to make the assumption. Hence the question to begin with. I am curious as to the thought process. I actually attempted to reach out to one such person who sems to be intelligent and able to communicate their thoughts well. They preferred I write a post instead. I did this because I wanted insight not an argument.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> instead of shaming me, gaslighting me, and outright bullying and lying to me so he could try to force me to accept a celibate marriage on HIS terms


All of these things happened long before understanding happened. Fortunately for me, my wife does love me and eventually made an attempt to understand.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uphillbattle said:


> I try not to make the assumption. Hence the question to begin with. I am curious as to the thought process. I actually attempted to reach out to one such person who sems to be intelligent and able to communicate their thoughts well. They preferred I write a post instead. I did this because I wanted insight not an argument.


I don't think anyone is arguing. you asked for insight and people have been offering theirs. 

Just because someone is intelligent and able to communicate well, doesn't mean that they aren't going to be resentful if they believe they are being treated poorly. 

Sexual issues in relationships can come in many different forms and flavors. 

I think in society in general we tend to try to sympathize and even protect the LL. A lot of this stems from the rightful desire to protect consent and prevent harassment and assault etc. 

But we also need to keep in mind that the realm of actual relationships and marriages can be quite complex and nuanced. 

And that not LLs are nice or even decent people. There is kind of a societal narative that the LL is overworked, underappreciated and undersupported and are just tired and stressed etc and they simply are not in the mood on a Saturday to the degree that the HL is. And that can certainly be the case. 

But some LLs are cold, calculating, manipulative and even downright cruel. Not all LLs are just overworked, stressed housewives that need a spa day and little more help with the dishes. 

If someone is outright rejecting and avoiding their partner for a year, that is not stress and not being in the mood... that is a serious marital issue and there is serious underlying resentments and animosities and hostilities in addition to lack of attraction and desire for their partner. 

And if they are continuing to demand their partner provides them with love and support and all of the benefits of marriage and continues to expect them to simply accept the lack of intimacy on their part,, there is some serious manipulation and coercion going on there. 

LLs are not innocent victims of the big bad horny HL's lust. There are some seriously manipulative and even cruel LLs out there that use their partner's need for intimacy as the sword of power and control. 

Normal, healthy, decent people want to have intimacy and affection and physical warmth etc. The want for intimacy is not a dark, dirty force of evil in the world. If someone is rejecting and opposing that intimacy on a chronic and ongoing basis, it's not that the other needs to do more dishes. It is that there is something seriously wrong within the relationship or within one or both of the partners. 

Intelligence and communication skills are not going to make that ok. In fact the intelligent person is going to recognize that it is a serious problem and if they have good communication skills, they are going to become even more frustrated because if they are making a good-faith effort to address the issues and are just getting stiff-armed and blown off, that is going to add fuel to the fire. 

LLs in sexless marriages are not innocent victims.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> Or not…
> 
> When I had the talk with my wife I was like well I mean I totally get it if you don’t want to have sex with me. That’s fine, but that means we’re done here. So either we work on it or that’s it.
> 
> ...


Nor only that.....but if one has a partner that's only "seeing to their needs" said person will be here complaining about duty sex.

People want to be wanted.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

uphillbattle said:


> All of these things happened long before understanding happened. *Fortunately for me, my wife does love me and eventually made an attempt to understand.*


Here is what explains your disconnect from MY personal perspective -- your partner cared...mine (and others) DID NOT.

And now my partner (STBX) is experiencing the consequences of not caring about his wife or his marriage, and I am experiencing those consequences as well, sadly.

I did not choose to end my relationship with him because I am uncaring and shallow...on the contrary, I had no choice but to end things and move on because I am very caring and have very deep feelings and emotions.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

uphillbattle said:


> I try not to make the assumption. Hence the question to begin with. I am curious as to the thought process. I actually attempted to reach out to one such person who sems to be intelligent and able to communicate their thoughts well. They preferred I write a post instead. I did this because I wanted insight not an argument.


I would like to see you respond a bit to the insight you've received in the responses. I am curious to hear what you think.

And you must have realized you would get a debate from other posters at least. You are kicking a hornet's nest...which is fine (and even good!), but it's going to bring out the hornets to defend themselves.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> Here is what explains your disconnect from MY personal perspective -- your partner cared...mine (and others) DID NOT.
> 
> And now my partner (STBX) is experiencing the consequences of not caring about his wife or his marriage, and I am experiencing those consequences as well, sadly.
> 
> I did not choose to end my relationship with him because I am uncaring and shallow...on the contrary, I had no choice but to end things and move on because I am very caring and have very deep feelings and emotions.


I had a solid 2 years and just inches away from divorce. At one time I was in pretty much the same boat, so I can get the understanding of where you are coming from. I believe you when you say you had no choice but to end it. Some people won't care no matter what. They think you are a shallow unloving person and will portray this to the outside world. The fact that you find something important in your relationship makes it important no matter what anyone else thinks of it.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> I would like to see you respond a bit to the insight you've received in the responses. I am curious to hear what you think.
> 
> And you must have realized you would get a debate from other posters at least. You are kicking a hornet's nest...which is fine (and even good!), but it's going to bring out the hornets to defend themselves.


Honestly I have only seen 1 such post of the responses and did respond to them. They have a reason I can understand. I will respond if I see more. Unfortunately it has been mostly one sided thus far and I already understand that particular point of view.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> My Dear Hubby passed away in 2017 at 59 years old from heart failure. It took 5 years. The last year of his life we loved physically by hugging and kissing but he couldn’t do PIV. We were able to maintain our marital bond joyfully.
> 
> Are you suggesting that a couple can not maintain intimacy without sex? What about those who serve our country and lose limbs or are injured? They can’t stay happily married? I beg to differ!


there are plenty of couples who are still "together" happily with no PIV sex.
But unless they are double hand amputees, there is no reason you can not have mutual masturbatory sex. 

in other words, the sex does not stop, just evolves with what you are still physically able to do.

there is a semi famous cartoon from the '60's, where a woman tells her husband "My doctor said i can not have sex for at least 6 weeks".
and his response is "What does your dentist say?"


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

I suspect all the people who responded to this post with negative feelings, probably tried, as I did, to get their needs met by compromise and reason. However, it fell on deaf ears and thats when the resentment builds, I was stuck in a cycle of having a conversation, getting duty sex for a few weeks and then back to nothing.

Its the hardest thing to walk away from a relationship when their is no cataclysmic event. I have no regrets about my decision, just regrets about the collateral damage that was caused. 

I feel so strongly about the lack of respect involved, that I don't blame any spouse who says either you meet my needs or i will get them met elsewhere, fair warning. Some will say divorce first, but when the honour part of the vows are gone, so be it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Talker67 said:


> in other words, the sex does not stop, just evolves with what you are still physically able to do.


This statement above is priceless ^^^^^

IMHO PIV intercourse may eventually end for a variety of reasons. 

But sexuality itself should never end. 

When I am 80 years old, I will still be a loving and caring sexual being and will still be sexually active if I am able to find someone to be sexual with. 

Now I may not be able to get my penis up with a forklift at that point, but my sexuality goes way beyond my Johnson. 

I will do whatever I am physically capable of doing and I expect the same in return in order for me to be in an exclusive primary relationship. 

There is no expiration date on sexuality and as long as someone is still of sound mind and in control of their faculties, there is no physical condition that prevents one from being a sexual being if they want to be.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I'm sorry, if you expect me to rub your feet and back at the end of a hard day, *change your flat tires alongside the road in the rain,* go out into the night to get you diarrhea medicine, cuddle you and tell you how much I love and care for you, unclog your toilet and kill spiders for you, you're going to need to be addressing my needs as well.


Thank goodness AAA is only $50 a year. And surprisingly, they don't want sex for it!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Thank goodness AAA is only $50 a year. And surprisingly, they don't want sex for it!


I'm sure some would gladly forgo the fee for a BJ.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

uphillbattle said:


> This thought process is close to mine.
> 
> I saw a post earlier that popped up from a little while back where a LD wife came on and knew something was wrong because she lost sexual interest in her husband. The amount of people who jumped on this woman so quickly made me sick. It got me wondering. If this was why some people on here who in other posts seem to be intelligent and empathetic would assume to know the needs and feelings of someone else. I just figured it was a way at slapping back.


Yep, happens all the time. Sadly it drives the users off the site. Instead of finding out what the underlying issues are, the posters gets attacked. It's sad because the person could have been given support and help to rebuild the passion back in their relationship. A lot of people seem to think that when here is a problem in a marriage, running away from it and divorcing is the only solution.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> Yep, happens all the time. Sadly it drives the users off the site. Instead of finding out what the underlying issues are, the posters gets attacked. It's sad because the person could have been given support and help to rebuild the passion back in their relationship. A lot of people seem to think that when here is a problem in a marriage, running away from it and divorcing is the only solution.


Does this also apply to the remorseful cheaters who routinely get savaged too, or is that just a bridge too far? 🤔


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Jamieboy said:


> Does this also apply to the remorseful cheaters who routinely get savaged too, or is that just a bridge too far? 🤔


If they are on here trying to work things out, a little bit of time to try to work things through wouldn't go amiss. Wouldn't it be helpful to the BS if only a little to get through a few things to the WS?


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> I'm sorry, if you expect me to rub your feet and back at the end of a hard day, change your flat tires alongside the road in the rain, go out into the night to get you diarrhea medicine,


This is where I think I differ from most, it's all one partnership. I will always do the things mentioned here and most other little things that I should be doing all the way up until we had no type of partnership at all. It's emotional availability for emotional availability for me, the things I can't get nor can she get ANYWHERE else per the lifelong partnership we both chose to undertake.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Thank goodness AAA is only $50 a year. And surprisingly, they don't want sex for it!


I find it interesting you cherry picked this part of it 



oldshirt said:


> if you expect me to rub your feet and back at the end of a hard day cuddle you and tell you how much I love and care for you


While ignoring this part


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

uphillbattle said:


> I find it interesting you cherry picked this part of it
> 
> 
> 
> While ignoring this part


I like Old Shirt, so I was holding myself back from saying something like "I suppose she never does anything for you, like has never squeezed out a kid or two and doesn't ever go the grocery store and bring home things for you to eat and drink and has never cared for you or done any housework or gone to the drugstore for you when you're not feeling well or driven the kids to school, in benefit to your family."

Hell, a stranger on the road would and has stopped to help me change a tire or other car problem more times than I can count. Any decent human being would do that for a _stranger_.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I like Old Shirt, so I was holding myself back from saying something like "I suppose she never does anything for you, like has never squeezed out a kid or two and doesn't ever go the grocery store and bring home things for you to eat and drink and has never cared for you or done any housework or gone to the drugstore for you when you're not feeling well or driven the kids to school, in benefit to her family."


Fair enough.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

OldShirt, I do think rubbing her feet would be going above and beyond the call of duty, maybe even if she was having sex with you.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Yep, happens all the time. Sadly it drives the users off the site. Instead of finding out what the underlying issues are, the posters gets attacked. It's sad because the person could have been given support and help to rebuild the passion back in their relationship. A lot of people seem to think that when here is a problem in a marriage, running away from it and divorcing is the only solution.


The thread I was speaking of earlier was 








I’m the Woman in my marriage and i don’t want to have...


Lately I feel horrible, I don’t want to have sex with my husband. I pretend i’m really tired and i don’t bring it up. It’s really bad! I am really not attracted to him anymore because i feel like sex is deeper than the physical part of it. I feel like this is somewhat the start of a failed...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com




Of the first 5 responses 4 were jumping up and down on the OP and the other one thought it was a troll post. After that you get a couple of questions genuinely attempting to get some info from the OP (who is on here trying to get thoughts and may not always fit into the round peg that she is being shoved into) to see if they may be able to offer advise, then the typical ***** fest ensues.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uphillbattle said:


> This is where I think I differ from most, it's all one partnership. I will always do the things mentioned here and most other little things that I should be doing all the way up until we had no type of partnership at all. It's emotional availability for emotional availability for me, the things I can't get nor can she get ANYWHERE else per the lifelong partnership we both chose to undertake.


Ok I don’t necessarily disagree with you but here is where I challenge your altruism - for most people, one can only take so much rejection until they lose their emotional availability. 

For men especially, their emotional connection and ‘availability’ (your term, but it is very applicable) is highly dependent on their sexual connection with partner. 

If their partner loses or has no sexual attraction, desire or responsiveness for him, his emotional connection and availability will degrade and potentially degrade to nothing over time.

For me and many other men, if there is no sexual connection, there is no special emotional connection. It just becomes another person on the street. 

You also touched on something that can contribute to the animosity that you have seen in other threads and posts - And that is the concept of not being able to obtain those things elsewhere. This is where the resentment can arise.

If I cut off my partner from affection and sexuality and don’t want to have sex with them, yet I expect them to continue to provide me with all of my needs and insist on their continued sexual exclusivity to me - resentments and animosities are going to form. 
Especially when I promised them at the beginning of the relationship that I would provide for those needs.

So yes, I get what you are saying that those things should be occurring in a relationship anyway - However when the sexual component of a relationship gets cut off, The rest of the relationship will die on the vine and degrade as well until there is no emotional connection or investment either.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> OldShirt, I do think rubbing her feet would be going above and beyond the call of duty, maybe even if she was having sex with you.


That depends. If her feet are clean and well pedicured, I’d dig it! 😉


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> Ok I don’t necessarily disagree with you but here is where I challenge your altruism - for most people, one can only take so much rejection until they lose their emotional availability.
> 
> For men especially, their emotional connection and ‘availability’ (your term, but it is very applicable) is highly dependent on their sexual connection with partner.
> 
> ...


This is where my inability to get my point across often bites me in the ass. I view the things that I can get somewhere else as like a business type of partnership. It is separate from the emotional partnership to me. If she makes the effort to keep up the business end of the relationship then so will I, all the way up until their is no more of an arrangement. If the only thing your spouse does within your marriage is just sex then I look at it as no different than an arrangement with a prostitute.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I like Old Shirt, so I was holding myself back from saying something like "I suppose she never does anything for you, like has never squeezed out a kid or two and doesn't ever go the grocery store and bring home things for you to eat and drink and has never cared for you or done any housework or gone to the drugstore for you when you're not feeling well or driven the kids to school, in benefit to your family."
> 
> Hell, a stranger on the road would and has stopped to help me change a tire or other car problem more times than I can count. Any decent human being would do that for a _stranger_.


The kids were for her. I consented to having kids and knew they would be part of the package, but I had no innate desire for kids of my own and could have lived a happy life without kids 

don’t take that the wrong way, I love my kids dearly, but they were not for me nor were they a gift for me. She is the one that wanted kids.

She and I both need to eat, so grocery shopping is not really a gift either. 

And I have helped both men and women change tires as any decent person would. 

My point is not that I do tricks or nice errands for sex. 

My point is that sexuality is what makes our special someone special and makes that relationship stand out above all others. 

Without it, that person is just another face in the crowd and the emotional investment and the bond that makes us a couple and a partnership is no longer present.

Yes, if I come across you on the side of the road with a flat in the rain, I may stop and help you because I am a good person...... but I may not if there was somewhere else I needed to be. My help and good Will would by on MY terms.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uphillbattle said:


> This is where my inability to get my point across often bites me in the ass. I view the things that I can get somewhere else as like a business type of partnership. It is separate from the emotional partnership to me. If she makes the effort to keep up the business end of the relationship then so will I, all the way up until their is no more of an arrangement. If the only thing your spouse does within your marriage is just sex then I look at it as no different than an arrangement with a prostitute.


I think you got your point across and I think I understand where you are coming from.

But what you need to understand is that some LLs DONT make an effort and DONT try to meet their partner’s needs. 

Some are truly parasitical in nature and suck time, energy and resources out of the partner while providing nothing in return. 

Spend a day reading the LL forum on Reddit and you will see some that try to meet their partners halfway and some that do try to make their relationships mutually beneficial. 

But you will also see people that truly dislike and even HATE their partners and hate that their partners want to touch them. 

But yet they insist on their partner continuing to pony up and provide them with the support and lifestyle they desire and insist their partners just suck it up and live without any form of love and affection or intimacy. 

I’m sorry but many people in that environment are not going to be able to maintain their emotional ties in that environment. I know I certainly would not be able no matter how good of a person I am.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

OldShirt, I don't know how old your kids are, but I hope you've considered what type of role model you are being to them deliberately being unhelpful because your wife isn't having sex (something they should not be affected by since they should have no idea). Kids learn from you. Thankfully, they are not in the bedroom and that stuff shouldn't touch them, but they see how you treat her about all this other stuff and how she reacts to it. Do you want your daughter falling for someone who treats her as inconsiderately as you're treating the mother of your children because she thinks that's normal? 

I'm just saying confine your recalcitrance to things intimate (like the foot rubbing or I love yous) and keep it away from the kids and don't do things to put a cog in the wheel of the running of the household. In other words, confine all that to behind the bedroom door (assuming you're even still in the same room).

Adding to this since I just read the one you just wrote. If you have kids, you have an equal obligation to provide for them, even in those bad situations. If you don't have kids -- for God's sake, divorce if things are that bad. If it's against your religion or something like that, then at least live separately.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> I think you got your point across and I think I understand where you are coming from.
> 
> But what you need to understand is that some LLs DONT make an effort and DONT try to meet their partner’s needs.
> 
> ...


At the point we came to see eye to eye, I had one foot out the door. Both sides (the business as well as the emotional side) need to be kept up. If one side of it fails with no effort to fix it then it will crash and burn. I don't view doing the side that works all the way up to the crash as any form of altruism, I view it as keeping my word in the areas that she has kept hers. I now would not put up with a disconnect for nearly as long as I did in the past, but that is just growing and learning from experience.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

uphillbattle said:


> At the point we came to see eye to eye, I had one foot out the door. Both sides (the business as well as the emotional side) need to be kept up. If one side of it fails with no effort to fix it then it will crash and burn. I don't view doing the side that works all the way up to the crash as any form of altruism, I view it as keeping my word in the areas that she has kept hers. *I now would not put up with a disconnect for nearly as long as I did in the past, but that is just growing and learning from experience.*


Reading the part of your post that I bolded -- So then you must understand the people posting on here, saying they wouldn't put up with sexlessness anymore either - we have also learned from our experiences what we are willing to put up with and what our boundaries are.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> OldShirt, I don't know how old your kids are, but I hope you've considered what type of role model you are being to them deliberately being unhelpful because your wife isn't having sex (something they should not be affected by since they should have no idea). Kids learn from you. Thankfully, they are not in the bedroom and that stuff shouldn't touch them, but they see how you treat her about all this other stuff and how she reacts to it. Do you want your daughter falling for someone who treats her as inconsiderately as you're treating the mother of your children because she thinks that's normal?
> 
> I'm just saying confine your recalcitrance to things intimate (like the foot rubbing or I love yous) and keep it away from the kids and don't do things to put a cog in the wheel of the running of the household. In other words, confine all that to behind the bedroom door (assuming you're even still in the same room).
> 
> Adding to this since I just read the one you just wrote. If you have kids, you have an equal obligation to provide for them, even in those bad situations. If you don't have kids -- for God's sake, divorce if things are that bad. If it's against your religion or something like that, then at least live separately.


Please understand I was talking in generalities and in a conceptual format and not talking about any specifics of my situation. AT ALL.

I am not in a loveless or technically sexless marriage. ( we may not be swinging from the chandeliers and I may not have any recent stories to share on Penthouse Forum but we are not loveless, affectionless or sexless per se)

I do my share of work in the home and in the family because it needs to be done. 

I give backrubs and foot rubs freely without expectation. 

I am cuddly and affectionate by nature.

I am very loving, supportive and highly involved in my kid's lives. 

My situation is NOTHING like you are describing above. You have misunderstood something I have said terribly. 

Again, I was NOT describing my situation or my home life at all. It was a conceptual point that for me to be in an exclusive, emotionally invested and mutually supportive relationship, there must be an element of romantic/sexual/affectionate component.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Yep, happens all the time. Sadly it drives the users off the site. Instead of finding out what the underlying issues are, the posters gets attacked. It's sad because the person could have been given support and help to rebuild the passion back in their relationship. A lot of people seem to think that when here is a problem in a marriage, running away from it and divorcing is the only solution.


i really wish people would not immediately jump to suggesting that the person coming on her get an immediate divorce. Jeez, that is probably the correct answer in maybe 25% of the cases. The vast majority need very different advice!


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> Reading the part of your post that I bolded -- So then you must understand the people posting on here, saying they wouldn't put up with sexlessness anymore either - we have also learned from our experiences what we are willing to put up with and what our boundaries are.


If you go back up and read you will see that I have said a few times that I understand that point of view. That wasn't the purpose of my original question at all. My lack of understanding is in terms of others not believing that someone could feel a disconnect from a sexless marriage. I was asking if it was the way in which an enormous amount of HD spouses come off on these boards or if there was something else behind this belief?

EDITED for p.s.
I didn't ask the question to change minds, just to expand my understanding.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Please understand I was talking in generalities and in a conceptual format and not talking about any specifics of my situation. AT ALL.
> 
> I am not in a loveless or technically sexless marriage. ( we may not be swinging from the chandeliers and I may not have any recent stories to share on Penthouse Forum but we are not loveless, affectionless or sexless per se)
> 
> ...


Hey, I'm just reading what you wrote, but I'm glad your situation is nowhere nearly as dire as you were saying it was.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> My Dear Hubby passed away in 2017 at 59 years old from heart failure. It took 5 years. The last year of his life we loved physically by hugging and kissing but he couldn’t do PIV. We were able to maintain our marital bond joyfully.
> 
> Are you suggesting that a couple can not maintain intimacy without sex? What about those who serve our country and lose limbs or are injured? They can’t stay happily married? I beg to differ!


I think the difference between it being due to injury/disease and spouse just not feeling it any more. If they want to but cant it is much different than a spouse choosing to withhold from the spouse or having an issue and not getting it fixed(ed, hormones, etc.)

One way there is nothing that can be done, the other says tough crap i dont want you that way anymore.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

uphillbattle said:


> If you go back up and read you will see that I have said a few times that I understand that point of view. That wasn't the purpose of my original question at all. My lack of understanding is in terms of others not believing that someone could feel a disconnect from a sexless marriage. I was asking if it was the way in which an enormous amount of HD spouses come off on these boards or if there was something else behind this belief?
> 
> EDITED for p.s.
> I didn't ask the question to change minds, just to expand my understanding.


Maybe I am mistaken, but I felt a bit of judgement from your inquiries (which is perfectly fine too!)...so I just wanted to point out the similarities between you and the posters who you struggle to understand.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> Maybe I am mistaken, but I felt a bit of judgement from your inquiries (which is perfectly fine too!)...so I just wanted to point out the similarities between you and the posters who you struggle to understand.


I try not to judge people without understanding them. That being said everybody judges others. Weather it be a good or bad judgment. I see the point of view of the HD partner pretty vividly. My negative judgment generally stems from those I see that shoehorn others into their own situation without taking the time to see if their are any differences and then proceed to treat all women like their lazy loveless ***** of a spouse.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

uphillbattle said:


> I try not to judge people without understanding them. That being said everybody judges others. Weather it be a good or bad judgment. I see the point of view of the HD partner pretty vividly. My negative judgment generally stems from *those I see that shoehorn others into their own situation without taking the time to see if their are any differences and then proceed to treat all women like their lazy loveless * of a spouse.*


Of course you are right. I wasn't condemning you for passing judgement on anyone - I was just offering MY perspective so you might hopefully gain part of the understanding you are seeking.

Also, I'm not sure what posts you are reading, but I've never interpreted any posts the way you have in what I've bolded. What I do hear are people who are trying to get to the bottom of an issue and help the person who is posting with their own personal perspective. Are some harsh? Sure, but that's the beauty of a forum - just scroll down and don't take the advice that doesn't help.

I am the high-drive spouse in my almost-ended marriage...MY husband refused sex to ME. For years and years. So I take a very uncompromising view on sexlessness that has no valid reason, except "I don't feel like it"...because, as other post have pointed out on this thread (VERY excellent posts, I might add), that is a toxic, selfish way to view the needs of a partner that you expect to be monogamous. 

So my advice isn't going to coddle anyone. And I don't mind if people who think my advice is misguided and/or wrong completely disregard what I say and ignore me. I hope to help, but if I don't, I will never take it personally.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> OldShirt, I do think rubbing her feet would be going above and beyond the call of duty, maybe even if she was having sex with you.


I like giving foot rubs especially with jojoba or lotion.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

uphillbattle said:


> I am sorry for your loss.
> It was more of an honest question, rather than a suggestion. Although this was the type of answer I wa looking for. Well sort of at least. A solid reason for this belief.


@uphillbattle ,

Just so we're clear, I realize you weren't trying to speak poorly of a person who dearly loves their spouse but is injured or ill and just can not have sex. I wasn't giving you grief--just as you weren't giving me grief. I think there are legitimate reasons to stay together with a person and remain intimate emotionally and mentally even though they can no longer be physical. Clearly that happens in many long-term, 60+ year marriages! But the gigantic difference, in my opinion, is that the healthy couple loves each other, cares for each other, desires each other, and for numerous reasons (accident, age, illness) their bodies can no longer respond. They want to, but they can't do it. The UNHEALTHY couple is the one that thinks of only their own need or desire, doesn't care what the other needs or desires, has no desire for each other, and uses their bodies as a weapon to manipulate or punish their partner. They are no longer acting out of love. 

For the ladies, I always like to think of it this way: women often say that "my husband only wants me for my body and I'm just an object to him"... so they withhold sex. Men often say that "my wife only wants me for my wallet and I'm just a paycheck to her"... So how would the wife feel if he just unilaterally decided to withhold his paycheck. Oh? You need it to pay bills and buy groceries? Rub my feet. Do my household chores. I'll think about giving it to you if you XYZ. I expect you to just survive with no money, and don't look to anyone else. 

Most women I know would HIT THE ROOF if a guy did this, and they'd leave him so hard and so fast he'd be dust in the rear view mirror! But somehow they feel completely justified to act like that toward him regarding sex! SMH.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I like Old Shirt, so I was holding myself back from saying something like "I suppose she never does anything for you, *like has never squeezed out a kid or two* and doesn't ever go the grocery store and bring home things for you to eat and drink and has never cared for you or done any housework or gone to the drugstore for you when you're not feeling well or driven the kids to school, in benefit to your family."


That's an interesting perspective, as someone who has had three kids with two different women, I've never thought of it as something they have done for me. Especially since I have never specifically wanted kids, although I never was vehemently opposed to having kids either. Plus with my wife, she was the one who wanted kids.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Jamieboy said:


> Does this also apply to the remorseful cheaters who routinely get savaged too, or is that just a bridge too far? 🤔


remorseful?
sure. if you have seen the moral error in your way, of course you deserve redemption.
Sex is a powerful thing, and it is easy to get seduced and tempted. Throw in some inevitable low moments in a marriage, and many would find it hard to NOT cheat.

but...if you can not stay monogamous, why be married? that is a recurring theme here, if you have to have sex outside the marriage, the ethical thing to do would be to divorce first. And if you already have transgressed, there is some serious heavy lifting before reconciliation can happen.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

Affaircare said:


> My Dear Hubby passed away in 2017 at 59 years old from heart failure. It took 5 years. The last year of his life we loved physically by hugging and kissing but he couldn’t do PIV. We were able to maintain our marital bond joyfully.
> 
> Are you suggesting that a couple can not maintain intimacy without sex? What about those who serve our country and lose limbs or are injured? They can’t stay happily married? I beg to differ!


big difference between “not wanting to” and “can’t” if my wife had a disease or got paralyzed and could t have sex, I would love and cherish her to the end of times.
On the other hand, if she woke up one day and decided she didn’t want sex anymore, I’d be out the next day.
Big difference


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Mybabysgotit said:


> big difference between “not wanting to” and “can’t” if my wife had a disease or got paralyzed and could t have sex, I would love and cherish her to the end of times.
> On the other hand, if she woke up one day and decided she didn’t want sex anymore, I’d be out the next day.
> Big difference


If you keep reading the thread, they make very clear that they know the difference.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think people can be bonded without sex. I know I'm certainly bonded to my kids, cats, and close friends. There are different types of emotional bonds and we probably all experience more then one.
> 
> A sexual bond is unique and its in a lot of peoples DNA to desire it. I know I do, but if that isn't something one requires then they can live without it and bond over other things.
> 
> I do think it's difficult to bond sexually when only one partner feels said bond. I know that while I want a sexual bond I won't be able to have one with a man who doesn't bond sexually.


True, and same can be said for people who need an emotional bond, but the other person does not and only bonds sexually, which seems to happen a lot.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I just finished lunch with my wife and after I gave her a big hug and a kiss on her head. I felt great after.

(I also grabbed her ass though).


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