# Annoyances



## hubbyintrubby

Got into a bit of an argument with my wife last night and I'm looking for some outside perspective. Background: when my almost 10 year old son eats things like soup and ice cream, he has this habit where, when he pulls the spoon out of his mouth, the spoon slides against his top teeth. The sound of this happening highly annoys my wife, my son's step-mom and her daughter. It bothers my 13 year old step-daughter so much that she has taken up sitting at a different table some nights so she doesn't hear it. I've talked to my son a handful times to try and get it to stop, but it's a habit that has continued to return. My wife's answer is that when it happens, he is to leave the table and sit in the other room by himself and he can try again the next day. 

Is it my son's responsibility to be mindful at all times around them at dinner and change the way he simply eats food with a spoon? Should my wife and my daughter who are both annoyed by this behavior change try to ignore it or try to see it in some other kind of light? Another angle altogether?

I know there is no right or wrong here, just maybe need another's perspective. Please help.


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## Nucking Futs

hubbyintrubby said:


> Got into a bit of an argument with my wife last night and I'm looking for some outside perspective. Background: when my almost 10 year old son eats things like soup and ice cream, he has this habit where, when he pulls the spoon out of his mouth, the spoon slides against his top teeth. The sound of this happening highly annoys my wife, my son's step-mom and her daughter. It bothers my 13 year old step-daughter so much that she has taken up sitting at a different table some nights so she doesn't hear it. I've talked to my son a handful times to try and get it to stop, but it's a habit that has continued to return. My wife's answer is that when it happens, he is to leave the table and sit in the other room by himself and he can try again the next day.
> 
> Is it my son's responsibility to be mindful at all times around them at dinner and change the way he simply eats food with a spoon? Should my wife and my daughter who are both annoyed by this behavior change try to ignore it or try to see it in some other kind of light? Another angle altogether?
> 
> I know there is no right or wrong here, just maybe need another's perspective. Please help.


Poor table manners allowed as a child is going to create a bigger problem as an adult. I don't know how you should go about correcting this, but you should correct it.


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## bobert

At dinner, when your son is doing the spoon thing, remind him to stop (and say what you want him to stop doing). If he does it again, show him how to properly use a spoon. If he does it again, ask him if he needs you to show him again. That worked with my 10 year old son for a different table manner. 

Yes, it's annoying to have to constantly remind him but eventually it will pay off. If you don't work on his table manners now he will still be doing this as an adult, and it's annoying to a lot of people. 

Kids need reminders. That expands to other manners, such as using a napkin rather than your clothes. Some kids may need direct reminders, "please use your napkin", and some may respond to more subtle reminders, "do you need another napkin?". 

A cousin of mine, her 11 year old daughter did the same thing your son is doing. Her parents made her use kids/toddler plastic spoons (which don't make noise) until she ate properly, which worked quickly because she was embarrassed. I don't really like that, but to each their own.


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## StillSearching

"The sound of this happening highly annoys my wife" ---- Misophonia


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## hubbyintrubby

bobert said:


> At dinner, when your son is doing the spoon thing, remind him to stop (and say what you want him to stop doing). If he does it again, show him how to properly use a spoon. If he does it again, ask him if he needs you to show him again. That worked with my 10 year old son for a different table manner.
> 
> Yes, it's annoying to have to constantly remind him but eventually it will pay off. If you don't work on his table manners now he will still be doing this as an adult, and it's annoying to a lot of people.
> 
> Kids need reminders. That expands to other manners, such as using a napkin rather than your clothes. Some kids may need direct reminders, "please use your napkin", and some may respond to more subtle reminders, "do you need another napkin?".
> 
> A cousin of mine, her 11 year old daughter did the same thing your son is doing. Her parents made her use kids/toddler plastic spoons (which don't make noise) until she ate properly, which worked quickly because she was embarrassed. I don't really like that, but to each their own.


Giving reminders would be wonderful if I was allowed to. Reminders also bother my wife to no end. Anything more than one reminder will sometimes absolutely ruin an entire night. People should always just know, she thinks. If you've reminded them once, they should just know.


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## Diana7

Nucking Futs said:


> Poor table manners allowed as a child is going to create a bigger problem as an adult. I don't know how you should go about correcting this, but you should correct it.


I don't see this as poor table manners though.


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## hubbyintrubby

Diana7 said:


> I don't see this as poor table manners though.


That's kind of the problem. I don't either.


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## bobert

hubbyintrubby said:


> Giving reminders would be wonderful if I was allowed to. Reminders also bother my wife to no end. Anything more than one reminder will sometimes absolutely ruin an entire night. People should always just know, she thinks. If you've reminded them once, they should just know.


So the world revolves around your wife?

Your wife sounds incredibly immature. She needs to reevaluate her expectations of a child and learn parenting skills. Clearly the current method is not working for your son, so your wife (the adult) needs to adapt. Each child, each person, is different. 

If your wife is so keen on leaving the table, then tell her she's welcome to leave but you are going to use the method (reminders) that your son needs.


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## Nucking Futs

hubbyintrubby said:


> That's kind of the problem. I don't either.


Quick google search returned this article. 



> * Cutlery should be rested on the plate/bowl between bites. Never gesture with your cutlery, and don’t scrape or clatter it noisily. Equally, it is bad manners to clank your utensils loudly against your teeth.


And this for Diana7.



> Try to avoid making noises of any kind while eating, either with implements against the plate or teeth, or with the actual ingestion of the food, such as slurping soup.


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## Girl_power

First I want to say that you and your wife need to be on the same team. At least present as a united front. Because you don’t want your kids to start to dislike or not respect their step mother. So talk to your wife in private and come to a compromise. You can’t be fighting about this for 10 years so whatever you do just be in the same page and be consistent with your child.


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## jlg07

hubbyintrubby said:


> Giving reminders would be wonderful if I was allowed to. Reminders also bother my wife to no end. Anything more than one reminder will sometimes absolutely ruin an entire night. People should always just know, she thinks. If you've reminded them once, they should just know.


So, she can't have it both ways -- if you are not allowed to correct it EACH TIME, then how is it supposed to get better? Magic?
You need to talk with her ahead of time that this is what you plan to do, so don't get mad. We need to correct the issue and it WILL take time and that she needs to be patient.

He's 10, not 30. If 30, yes he should know. At 10, he still needs discipline instilled into him from outside (that's YOU!).


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## She'sStillGotIt

hubbyintrubby said:


> Giving reminders would be wonderful if I was allowed to. Reminders also bother my wife to no end. Anything more than one reminder will sometimes absolutely ruin an entire night. People should always just know, she thinks. If you've reminded them once, they should just know.


Jesus. It's time you grabbed her purse and got your testicles out of it and put them *back* where they belong.

Why the hell do you live with a woman like this? You sound like a frightened teenager so afraid of getting in trouble with his big bad mommy wife instead of a supposed grown adult male.

Do you even SEE what you've been reduced to?


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## She'sStillGotIt

hubbyintrubby said:


> That's kind of the problem. I don't either.


Any type of unpleasant noise one makes when eating is considered bad manners (slurping your drink, chewing with your mouth open, making awful noises with metal utensils against one's teeth). It's bad manners - especially when it *annoys* others who are trying to eat a peaceful meal.

Ask your kid's *dentist* what he thinks about your son continually dragging metal against his teeth. I *guarantee* you he's going to tell you to make the kid STOP doing it.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Table manners aren't universal. Different cultures do different things. The idea of table manners is ludicrous to me as a result of this fact. I'll slurp the hell out of my Pho because everyone else is. Americans with a stick up their ass can deal with it or gtfo as far as I'm concerned. If I want to eat my tomahawk steak like a cave man with my hands and gnawing on the bone, leave if you don't like it. Advert your eyes or something, I don't care. In what way is anyone hurt by other's eating habits? You want to control how I eat? Where I place my napkin and how I cut and chew food? You are the one with issues, not me.


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## hubbyintrubby

If there were 10 people sitting around a table, I bet all of those 10 could pick out "bad manners" or poor "table manners" or something they find annoying in each of the other 9. How far does it go to make sure everybody is happy, displaying perfect manners at all times and not annoying anybody else at the table? Maybe I just don't understand I guess.


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## Girl_power

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Table manners aren't universal. Different cultures do different things. The idea of table manners is ludicrous to me as a result of this fact. I'll slurp the hell out of my Pho because everyone else is. Americans with a stick up their ass can deal with it or gtfo as far as I'm concerned. If I want to eat my tomahawk steak like a cave man with my hands and gnawing on the bone, leave if you don't like it. Advert your eyes or something, I don't care. In what way is anyone hurt by other's eating habits? You want to control how I eat? Where I place my napkin and how I cut and chew food? You are the one with issues, not me.




Well In the real world we are judged by our actions and manners. As parents we should set up our kids for success not establish bad habits that will present us with future challenges.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Girl_power said:


> Well In the real world we are judged by our actions and manners. As parents we should set up our kids for success not establish bad habits that will present us with future challenges.


The only people who are challenged in this arena are the ones trying to control things that have no impact on them. That's mentally challenged alright.

"Certain things make me slightly uncomfortable to look at but have no impact on my life in any other way. But its everyone else's job to make sure I'm never slightly uncomfortable so I'll try and control them."

Mentally handicapped way of thinking.


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## hubbyintrubby

TheDudeLebowski said:


> The only people who are challenged in this arena are the ones trying to control things that have no impact on them. That's mentally challenged alright.
> 
> "Certain things make me slightly uncomfortable to look at but have no impact on my life in any other way. But its everyone else's job to make sure I'm never slightly uncomfortable so I'll try and control them."
> 
> Mentally handicapped way of thinking.


I mostly agree with this way of thinking. Although I wouldn't say no impact on them. I get the frustration and annoyance, I really do. However, if I walked around everyday trying to modify people's behavior that I perceived to be offensive, annoying, to be bad manners, etc...I'd literally go insane because it would be more than a full-time job and it would never ever end.


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## Nucking Futs

hubbyintrubby said:


> I mostly agree with this way of thinking. Although I wouldn't say no impact on them. I get the frustration and annoyance, I really do. However, if I walked around everyday trying to modify people's behavior that I perceived to be offensive, annoying, to be bad manners, etc...I'd literally go insane because it would be more than a full-time job and it would never ever end.


It's not your job to try to modify peoples behavior, but it's absolutely your job to modify your child's behavior. Business is frequently conducted over meals and the attitude of "**** you if you don't like how I eat" can cost you clients and promotions. Teaching your kid that it doesn't matter what other people think about his manners is not setting him up for success.


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## TheDudeLebowski

hubbyintrubby said:


> I mostly agree with this way of thinking. Although I wouldn't say no impact on them. I get the frustration and annoyance, I really do. However, if I walked around everyday trying to modify people's behavior that I perceived to be offensive, annoying, to be bad manners, etc...I'd literally go insane because it would be more than a full-time job and it would never ever end.


You will never not annoy someone. So who cares? Let them be annoyed. Someone annoying you briefly has no impact on your life beyond being slightly annoyed for a minute. If you let it impact you beyond that, you are the one with the problem, not them.

It's one thing to recognize and use table manners if you are entertaining clients or something. To try and control how someone eats beyond that is petty nonsense. I swallow a lot of air when I drink so its loud. I can't help it. If that creates a challenge in my life because someone finds it distasteful, well I don't care about their feelings honesty and don't need that level of petty nonsense in my life. So it's not really a challenge at all.

In terms of this, the only suggestion I liked was ask a dentist. That's a good idea actually. If it impacts your own health beyond what you are willing to live with, correct it. Wear headphones and a blindfold or something if it's just destroying your life to have to hear me gulp down my drink and not place my napkin in my lap.


ETA: I've always found people's quirks like this endearing myself. So I have a hard time getting on the same page with people on things of this nature. It's like "ugh, have you eaten wings with Tony? Its disgusting! I love that guy!" And you laugh about it with your friends. Remember Everybody Loves Raymond? His brother would touch his spoon to his chin before he could eat. Stuff like that is endearing to me.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Nucking Futs said:


> It's not your job to try to modify peoples behavior, but it's absolutely your job to modify your child's behavior. Business is frequently conducted over meals and the attitude of "**** you if you don't like how I eat" can cost you clients and promotions. Teaching your kid that it doesn't matter what other people think about his manners is not setting him up for success.


I agree with this. Teaching and showing proper table manners in the event that it will impact their career is a good thing. That is setting them up for success. Teaching someone how to be mindful of their actions and how others percieve them is good. No arguments from me, we posted at the same time and I already said this is a good reason to know good table manners. 

How I eat in my own home with my family? **** em. How I eat at chili's with friends? **** em. I'll eat how I want. I'll burp and be a caveman, dont care. If I want to suck on bones and chew cartilage and that offends someone, **** em. Don't care. 

I'm from Texas, manners are engrained. Everyone is sir or ma'am. You hold doors for people who are across the street walking up. To the point where they speed up because they know you're not going to stop holding that door for them until they get to you. Ask a truck driver, we let you in. We move over for you. We say hello and smile at strangers. Being polite and extending effort for others is part of Texas culture. This really isn't a matter of "I'll do whatever I want screw everyone else" it's more a matter of "why are you trying to control me to this level?" In my eyes, that's a lack of respect for me as an individual. I'm not hurting anyone having my elbows on the table. Who the hell are you or anyone else to tell me otherwise?


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## Girl_power

TheDudeLebowski said:


> The only people who are challenged in this arena are the ones trying to control things that have no impact on them. That's mentally challenged alright.
> 
> 
> 
> "Certain things make me slightly uncomfortable to look at but have no impact on my life in any other way. But its everyone else's job to make sure I'm never slightly uncomfortable so I'll try and control them."
> 
> 
> 
> Mentally handicapped way of thinking.




I disagree. Whether we want to admit it or not there are pedigrees and etiquette and people judging people based on these things. We may not like it but it is what it is.


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## Marduk

Man, I can see this kid never, ever coming over to sunday dinners with his kids when he’s married.

If this is the kind of stuff that causes drama at your dinner table, I sure wouldn’t be comfortable eating there. I’d tell everyone to get over themselves and let the poor kid eat.


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## hubbyintrubby

Marduk said:


> Man, I can see this kid never, ever coming over to sunday dinners with his kids when he’s married.
> 
> If this is the kind of stuff that causes drama at your dinner table, I sure wouldn’t be comfortable eating there. I’d tell everyone to get over themselves and let the poor kid eat.


Yeah, believe me, I've tried getting that exact point across. I agree with your opinion. All it does is start arguments.


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## hubbyintrubby

The sad thing is, the extent to which it bothers both my wife and her daughter, I do strongly believe that it fits something called Misophonia, a cousin or sibling within OCD. The sound my son makes with a spoon in his mouth, among other sounds, literally make them angry.


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## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> The sad thing is, the extent to which it bothers both my wife and her daughter, I do strongly believe that it fits something called Misophonia, a cousin or sibling within OCD. The sound my son makes with a spoon in his mouth, among other sounds, literally make them angry.


When someone else has to manage your disorders for you, the disorder is no longer the problem.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Girl_power said:


> I disagree. Whether we want to admit it or not there are pedigrees and etiquette and people judging people based on these things. We may not like it but it is what it is.


That's fine. I'm personally not going to fit and mold myself into what others want me to be. Thats why I dont like religion, but I'm a firm believer in God.

The costs for me aren't worth the gains. For others, the cost of thwarting their own individuality are worth the societal gains. Until they have a midlife crisis that is... Bwahahahahaha! :grin2:


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## Marduk

Girl_power said:


> I disagree. Whether we want to admit it or not there are pedigrees and etiquette and people judging people based on these things. We may not like it but it is what it is.


I’ve eaten dinners with heads of industry, of state, of academia. With my kids even as toddlers. 

Hell my youngest once ended up in the lap of the head of economics at Oxford or something at someone’s estate in Cumbria on their private island, feeding him food off his plate with his fingers.

Absolutely zero problem, ever. Well, except that one time when I had to eat shark fin soup in Singapore at some official dinner. That was just gross. I got off lucky though, a friend had to eat monkey brains at an embassy function. I don’t think I could have done it, but she did.


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## zookeeper

Your wife sounds like a real joy. I hope you make only approved noises when you're banging her or YOU might have to go in another room and try again tomorrow.

If I read the OP correctly, you are allowing his step-mother and step-sister to banish him from the dinner table because they are annoyed? You're his father. What messages do you think he gets from seeing his dad fail to stand up for him? Since you have already said that you don't object to the sound, how about putting your wife and her drama queen daughter in their place? If they don't like the sound, how about THEY leave the room?

Are you afraid of your wife? I mean, WTF? How can a man allow his new wife to tell him what he can and can't do in regard to raising his son? You're not ALLOWED to remind him of something? It never ceases to amaze me when I see the exorbitant price some men will pay for a chance to have sex...


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## Girl_power

TheDudeLebowski said:


> That's fine. I'm personally not going to fit and mold myself into what others want me to be. Thats why I dont like religion, but I'm a firm believer in God.
> 
> 
> 
> The costs for me aren't worth the gains. For others, the cost of thwarting their own individuality are worth the societal gains. Until they have a midlife crisis that is... Bwahahahahaha! :grin2:




So you would rather fight with your wife for the next 10 years?


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## TheDudeLebowski

Girl_power said:


> So you would rather fight with your wife for the next 10 years?


No, I dont fight with my wife. If I wanted to, I could. I could try my hardest to mold and shape her into something she isn't. She can try to do that to me. Or we can accept each other and love each other. Its a choice isn't it? Who's the bigot? The one who accepts others and their differences or the one who tries to control others and squash out any differences?

Its fine to have preferences btw, that's not what I'm suggesting. You certainly aren't a bigot if I'm not a match for you for whatever reason you find. You are however a bigot if your goal is to make everyone cater to you. You are an entitled bigot, and that's just the reality of it. Further, if you marry someone then try to change them, you are a sneaking bait and switch type entitled bigot. And you deserve all the heartache of every failed relationship that comes your way.


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## Girl_power

TheDudeLebowski said:


> No, I dont fight with my wife. If I wanted to, I could. I could try my hardest to mold and shape her into something she isn't. She can try to do that to me. Or we can accept each other and love each other. Its a choice isn't it? Who's the bigot? The one who accepts others and their differences or the one who tries to control others and squash out any differences?
> 
> 
> 
> Its fine to have preferences btw, that's not what I'm suggesting. You certainly aren't a bigot if I'm not a match for you for whatever reason you find. You are however a bigot if your goal is to make everyone cater to you. You are an entitled bigot, and that's just the reality of it. Further, if you marry someone then try to change them, you are a sneaking bait and switch type entitled bigot. And you deserve all the heartache of every failed relationship that comes your way.




I think that asking someone to stop hitting their teeth against their spoon doesn’t make you a bigot. 

Also, marriage is about compromise. Not rolling over and doing everything the other person wants, and not being Stubborn and unable to change. These two need to come to an agreement, and all I am saying is that it’s not the worst thing in the world for him to acknowledge that it’s an annoying habit that drives his wife crazy. He should agree to correct the behavior, and she should agree to however he wants to correct it.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Girl_power said:


> I think that asking someone to stop hitting their teeth against their spoon doesn’t make you a bigot.
> 
> Also, marriage is about compromise. Not rolling over and doing everything the other person wants, and not being Stubborn and unable to change. These two need to come to an agreement, and all I am saying is that it’s not the worst thing in the world for him to acknowledge that it’s an annoying habit that drives his wife crazy. He should agree to correct the behavior, and she should agree to however he wants to correct it.



Marriage isn't about forcing others to compromise. Its about what compromises you yourself are willing to make for another. There's a big difference in the two. If his wife is willing to die on this hill, that bar will keep moving and moving and moving. Shesstillgotit is correct. Remove balls from purse, place them back in your own sack, and stand up to nonsense petty bullying. If her or her daughter's don't like it, grab some headphones. It clearly bothers OP that such a petty BS issue is a point of contention. Kid is 10. He's not entertaining million dollar clients at a 5 Star restaurant. He's 10, at home, eating his food. 

You compromise on little petty nonsense like this, you might as well cut your balls off and throw them away. Especially when he can't even be allowed to voice his own opinion on it or correct it in a real world way you correct 10 year old kids.

I stick with her on this one. Get your balls back and quit being a pushover. Ask a dentist about it and get a professional opinion. If a dentist said "this is terrible for him and here's why..." Fine. If a dentist says "its fine, wont do anything really" then I would stick with the "deal with it" approach and I wouldn't budge. 

Tell someone how to raise their kids, see how well that works out for you in your relationships. Get your Paxil and Prozac prescription filled first, because it's going to be a rough ride. Start buying kitty litter and stock up on TV dinners for future single cat lady endeavors.


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## BioFury

hubbyintrubby said:


> That's kind of the problem. I don't either.


If you think about it, a lot of table manners revolve around not making noises while eating.

You may not mind it, but chances are, other people will. In years to come when he's dating, meeting business associates, etc., this habit will not be an asset.


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## Girl_power

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Marriage isn't about forcing others to compromise. Its about what compromises you yourself are willing to make for another. There's a big difference in the two. If his wife is willing to die on this hill, that bar will keep moving and moving and moving. Shesstillgotit is correct. Remove balls from purse, place them back in your own sack, and stand up to nonsense petty bullying. If her or her daughter's don't like it, grab some headphones. It clearly bothers OP that such a petty BS issue is a point of contention. Kid is 10. He's not entertaining million dollar clients at a 5 Star restaurant. He's 10, at home, eating his food.
> 
> 
> 
> You compromise on little petty nonsense like this, you might as well cut your balls off and throw them away. Especially when he can't even be allowed to voice his own opinion on it or correct it in a real world way you correct 10 year old kids.
> 
> 
> 
> I stick with her on this one. Get your balls back and quit being a pushover. Ask a dentist about it and get a professional opinion. If a dentist said "this is terrible for him and here's why..." Fine. If a dentist says "its fine, wont do anything really" then I would stick with the "deal with it" approach and I wouldn't budge.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell someone how to raise their kids, see how well that works out for you in your relationships. Get your Paxil and Prozac prescription filled first, because it's going to be a rough ride. Start buying kitty litter and stock up on TV dinners for future single cat lady endeavors.




What is his wife chop liver? That’s not how I want my relationships to work, I actually want my husband to care how something makes me feel to a certain extent. Ignoring the fact that something drives her crazy is like saying I don’t care about you or how you feel. I’m not saying he has to oblige all her feelings but come on.


The reality is the OP is just appeasing her to her face to “keep the peace” but not really following through or agreeing with her in reality. What he is doing is causing more problems and your right he is giving her his balls but not because he is agreeing with her. He is giving her his balls by appeasing both parties... by trying to remain the good guy to both wife and son, by trying to take the path of least resistance. 

What he really needs to do is SOMETHING. Either tell your wife she had to deal with it and he will not correct his behavior bc he sees nothing wrong with it, OR tell her yes I agree with you that it needs to be correctly, but it’s not like he is skinning cats and you will bring it to his attention when he does it every time but he will not take drastic behavior.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Girl_power said:


> What is his wife chop liver? That’s not how I want my relationships to work, I actually want my husband to care how something makes me feel to a certain extent. Ignoring the fact that something drives her crazy is like saying I don’t care about you or how you feel. I’m not saying he has to oblige all her feelings but come on.
> 
> 
> The reality is the OP is just appeasing her to her face to “keep the peace” but not really following through or agreeing with her in reality. What he is doing is causing more problems and your right he is giving her his balls but not because he is agreeing with her. He is giving her his balls by appeasing both parties... by trying to remain the good guy to both wife and son, by trying to take the path of least resistance.
> 
> What he really needs to do is SOMETHING. Either tell your wife she had to deal with it and he will not correct his behavior bc he sees nothing wrong with it, OR tell her yes I agree with you that it needs to be correctly, but it’s not like he is skinning cats and you will bring it to his attention when he does it every time but he will not take drastic behavior.


Well we are in agreement then. When he tries to correct things as the kid's father, she doesn't like how he does it. Thats like a spouse complaining their partner doesn't do the dishes. Then complaining about how they do the dishes when they step up and and start doing them. At some point you just keep being a pushover or you stand up and say "I'll load the dishwasher however the **** I want or you can continue to do them yourself always until the end of time. Deal with it, or find a lawyer and sign on the dotted line. Where do I sign?" 

She's not chopped liver until he agreed to correct his son, only to be scolded for not doing it right. Suddenly, she's not even chopped liver. She's the fat you trim and throw away or feed to the dog. That's BS. If that is her attitude, **** it, let her die on this hill. Because it wont end here. That line will only keep moving until you're a neutered man getting cheated on by a woman who has no respect for you. That same thing goes the other way too, genders reversed.

Problem with kids dating these days, they want everything. Literally everything. No wonder everyone says the dating scene is so hard these days. Unrealistic expectations. As if you (general you, not you you :smile2 don't annoy the **** out of people too sometimes. :laugh:


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## hubbyintrubby

The way I see it, there is no win/win here at all. I know 9 year old boys aren't the known leaders of table etiquette, and to me, that's fine. Yes, right now is always a good time to start instilling manners, that I agree upon. At a certain point, it's really not a matter of etiquette and manners, but simply the way he pulls the freaking spoon out of his mouth. Like I asked earlier though, where is the line when we start coaching people around the table? I could probably spend an entire family dinner on coaching everybody sitting there on something they can do more to my liking. Hell, I could probably do that every single night until everybody behaves perfectly on any given night. Is that what should happen?


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## aquarius1

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Any type of unpleasant noise one makes when eating is considered bad manners (slurping your drink, chewing with your mouth open, making awful noises with metal utensils against one's teeth). It's bad manners - especially when it *annoys* others who are trying to eat a peaceful meal.
> 
> Ask your kid's *dentist* what he thinks about your son continually dragging metal against his teeth. I *guarantee* you he's going to tell you to make the kid STOP doing it.


This was my thought. Whatever the source (table manners, habit, etc) maybe the pattern of behaviour has just caused him to "tune out" his family. 
But he might be damaging his teeth with this. Check with a dentist.
Sometimes a good talking to by an outside person can have a greater impact.

And no offense hubbyintrubby, but your wife has some pretty big problems of her own that you have outlined in other posts. Including control issues.

10 year old children are very unaware of their behaviour's effect on others. they are entering a very self-focused time in their life. It IS someone's job to keep reminding over and over and over. The brain is beginning its rewiring and obliviousness is the word of the day.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

aquarius1 said:


> This was my thought. Whatever the source (table manners, habit, etc) maybe the pattern of behaviour has just caused him to "tune out" his family.
> But he is probably damaging his teeth with this.
> Sometimes a good talking to by an outside person can have a greater impact.
> 
> And no offense hubbyintrubby, but your wife has some pretty big problems of her own that you have outlined in other posts. Including control issues.
> 
> 10 year old children are very unaware of their behaviour's effect on others. they are entering a very self-focused time in their life. It IS someone's job to keep reminding over and over and over. The brain is beginning its rewiring and obliviousness is the word of the day.


Control issues is putting it very nicely.

I do my best attending to those things that I feel need to be corrected. He had a bad habit for a while of sitting on his feet and legs at the dinner table. It took a little time, lots of reminders, now he sits on his butt. He still sometimes folds his legs, then catches himself. Why did that happen? It didn't bother me in the least that he sat on his legs sometimes...my wife did. She'd literally have a fit about him sitting on his legs because she "couldn't stand looking at it". I agreed, not the best show of table manners so we corrected it over time and he does much better now.

On the flip, when her 2 daughters are over alone, they act like hyenas at the table. Loud, annoying, laughing, joking about inappropriate things/songs, etc ...and their mother tells them to stop. They literally MAKE FUN OF HER for getting upset and their punishment was to clean up after dinner...which they would have had to do mostly anyway. Yet...when I allow my son's spoon/teeth contact to continue, it's a huge parenting issue. I've made it extra clear when that happens again, I will be standing up whenever it begins, clearing my plate and going for a long drive.

God forbid I bring that up though.


----------



## aquarius1

hubbyintrubby said:


> Control issues is putting it very nicely.
> 
> I do my best attending to those things that I feel need to be corrected. He had a bad habit for a while of sitting on his feet and legs at the dinner table. It took a little time, lots of reminders, now he sits on his butt. He still sometimes folds his legs, then catches himself. Why did that happen? It didn't bother me in the least that he sat on his legs sometimes...my wife did. She'd literally have a fit about him sitting on his legs because she "couldn't stand looking at it". I agreed, not the best show of table manners so we corrected it over time and he does much better now.
> 
> On the flip, when her 2 daughters are over alone, they act like hyenas at the table. Loud, annoying, laughing, joking about inappropriate things/songs, etc ...and their mother tells them to stop. They literally MAKE FUN OF HER for getting upset and their punishment was to clean up after dinner...which they would have had to do mostly anyway. Yet...when I allow my son's spoon/teeth contact to continue, it's a huge parenting issue. *I've made it extra clear when that happens again, I will be standing up whenever it begins, clearing my plate and going for a long drive.
> *
> God forbid I bring that up though.


If I may suggest. You may want to take your son with you when you go. Leaving him with her may not be a good idea. No need to talk. Just drive.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

aquarius1 said:


> If I may suggest. You may want to take your son with you when you go. Leaving him with her may not be a good idea. No need to talk. Just drive.


My kids aren't home most of those times the girls act the way they do at the table, those times that'd I'd leave. If it happened when they were, I'd absolutely bring them with me, for sure, yes.


----------



## Tex X

I would recommend you and your wife read 'No Drama Discipline'.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JCS4NMC/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1


----------



## Marduk

Girl_power said:


> I think that asking someone to stop hitting their teeth against their spoon doesn’t make you a bigot.


It certainly makes you pretty high strung if you get visibly angry with a child doing it and have to leave the table.


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> Control issues is putting it very nicely.
> 
> I do my best attending to those things that I feel need to be corrected. He had a bad habit for a while of sitting on his feet and legs at the dinner table. It took a little time, lots of reminders, now he sits on his butt. He still sometimes folds his legs, then catches himself. Why did that happen? It didn't bother me in the least that he sat on his legs sometimes...my wife did. She'd literally have a fit about him sitting on his legs because she "couldn't stand looking at it". I agreed, not the best show of table manners so we corrected it over time and he does much better now.
> 
> On the flip, when her 2 daughters are over alone, they act like hyenas at the table. Loud, annoying, laughing, joking about inappropriate things/songs, etc ...and their mother tells them to stop. They literally MAKE FUN OF HER for getting upset and their punishment was to clean up after dinner...which they would have had to do mostly anyway. Yet...when I allow my son's spoon/teeth contact to continue, it's a huge parenting issue. I've made it extra clear when that happens again, I will be standing up whenever it begins, clearing my plate and going for a long drive.
> 
> God forbid I bring that up though.


OK it’s clear what’s going on here.

Your wife is either feeling like she failed as a parent with her daughters and is trying to succeed with your son, or she’s just naturally hyper controlling and critical and her daughters rejected it full-stop.

Either way, you need to pull your son out of the line of fire here. These things have a habit of escalating.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Marduk said:


> OK it’s clear what’s going on here.
> 
> Your wife is either feeling like she failed as a parent with her daughters and is trying to succeed with your son, or she’s just naturally hyper controlling and critical and her daughters rejected it full-stop.
> 
> Either way, you need to pull your son out of the line of fire here. These things have a habit of escalating.


I've never looked at it that way, that's she's "trying again" with my son. I can definitely see that happening in ways. And yes, her daughters I believe are more than fed up with the way she treats many situations. My wife frequently believes she has the only right advice to give and all would be smart to follow what she has to say. Anything else is 'dumb', 'stupid', etc.

If you'll believe it, there's a lot of animosity going around in my house right now. My wife is beyond controlling and needs to have things her way or can enter a tailspin of sorts. My children want zero to do with her right now and I know full well why. She's not outright demanding of them, rude to them, etc. In fact, most of her interactions with them are positive, but the kids are also smart enough and see enough to know what is happening behind closed doors. She wants them different, she wants me different...they see it and I see it.


----------



## SunCMars

Soft plastic spoons and forks for the son.

I think that the other's, the step mom and step sister do not like this boy, for a myriad of other reasons.
This is a secondary and a sham reason for their discomfort.

The boy may be purposely doing this teeth ring/chattering. 

Why? 

He is a child, children know how to push buttons.


https://www.ebay.com/b/Multicolor-Spoon-Baby-Eating-Utensils/117385/bn_109703462


----------



## hubbyintrubby

SunCMars said:


> Soft plastic spoons and forks for the son.
> 
> I think that the other's, the step mom and step sister do not like this boy, for a myriad of other reasons.
> This is a secondary and a sham reason for their discomfort.
> 
> The boy may be purposely doing this teeth ring/chattering.
> 
> Why?
> 
> He is a child, children know how to push buttons.
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/b/Multicolor-Spoon-Baby-Eating-Utensils/117385/bn_109703462


There is a good possibility he could be pushing buttons. He's outright told me that he believes his step-mom does not like him. When asked why, he cannot give a very meaningful or straight answer as to why. I've had the feeling for a while that she does not care for him as well.


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> I've never looked at it that way, that's she's "trying again" with my son. I can definitely see that happening in ways. And yes, her daughters I believe are more than fed up with the way she treats many situations. My wife frequently believes she has the only right advice to give and all would be smart to follow what she has to say. Anything else is 'dumb', 'stupid', etc.
> 
> If you'll believe it, there's a lot of animosity going around in my house right now. My wife is beyond controlling and needs to have things her way or can enter a tailspin of sorts. My children want zero to do with her right now and I know full well why. She's not outright demanding of them, rude to them, etc. In fact, most of her interactions with them are positive, but the kids are also smart enough and see enough to know what is happening behind closed doors. She wants them different, she wants me different...they see it and I see it.


Check this out and see if it resonates:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_freak

If it is a personality disorder, then you pretty much have to shield your children and yourself from the damage she will inevitably cause until or unless she seeks treatment.

Until then, boundaries are your friend. If she does something hyper controlling or critical, scoop the kids up and just leave. Go for ice cream or whatever gets them out the door with a minimum of questions or fuss from them. Just go. 

When they’re triggered, there’s very little you can do to engage them rationally without causing more of a reaction, sometimes a violent one. She may view her entire self-worth as dependant on everyone doing what she thinks is right, and fighting against it may therefore be viewed as an existential threat.


----------



## Marduk

SunCMars said:


> Soft plastic spoons and forks for the son.
> 
> I think that the other's, the step mom and step sister do not like this boy, for a myriad of other reasons.
> This is a secondary and a sham reason for their discomfort.
> 
> The boy may be purposely doing this teeth ring/chattering.
> 
> Why?
> 
> He is a child, children know how to push buttons.
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/b/Multicolor-Spoon-Baby-Eating-Utensils/117385/bn_109703462


Pushing buttons is part of children developing into independent adults. It’s to be expected.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Interesting. i’m confused about compromise and table manners. So, could you tell us what a typical dinner is like at your house?

I am all for compromise, but it must include teaching.


hubbyintrubby said:


> There is a good possibility he could be pushing buttons. He's outright told me that he believes his step-mom does not like him. When asked why, he cannot give a very meaningful or straight answer as to why. I've had the feeling for a while that she does not care for him as well.


Tell you what, if my step sisters can act a fool and I get punished for spoon clicking and leg sitting, I am going to think the person doesn’t like me.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Marduk said:


> Check this out and see if it resonates:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_freak
> 
> If it is a personality disorder, then you pretty much have to shield your children and yourself from the damage she will inevitably cause until or unless she seeks treatment.
> 
> Until then, boundaries are your friend. If she does something hyper controlling or critical, scoop the kids up and just leave. Go for ice cream or whatever gets them out the door with a minimum of questions or fuss from them. Just go.
> 
> When they’re triggered, there’s very little you can do to engage them rationally without causing more of a reaction, sometimes a violent one. She may view her entire self-worth as dependant on everyone doing what she thinks is right, and fighting against it may therefore be viewed as an existential threat.


Wow. I checked the link. Yes, yes, and yes. That is my wife. Especially the part under the heading "Vulnerability". To a T.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Interesting. i’m confused about compromise and table manners. So, could you tell us what a typical dinner is like at your house?
> 
> I am all for compromise, but it must include teaching.
> 
> 
> Tell you what, if my step sisters can act a fool and I get punished for spoon clicking and leg sitting, I am going to think the person doesn’t like me.


Obviously it varies a little from night to night. We both have 50/50 custody of our kids, but on different custody schedules. Therefore, we sometimes have just her kids, sometimes have just my kids and sometimes have both sets of kids there. 

The nights when her 2 daughters are there, the 2 get out of hand very quickly and their mother cannot reign them back in. Loudly talking and laughing about inappropriate things, songs, internet crap. Their mother tries to keep them from continuing but has been having an increasingly difficult time doing so. The last episode, they outright were making fun of her for getting upset that they were acting the way they were. Typical "we're just having fun" BS...much more than that. Backtalking, crappy attitudes, etc so bad that it left my wife in tears and me trying to console her as best I could. 

The nights just my 2 are there and my wife is there also as sometimes she works in the evenings, it is very quiet. My children rarely speak, my wife and I try to both start conversations with very little input. If I notice my son sitting on his legs, I make sure that he changes the way he is sitting as that is upsetting to my wife. If either one are doing anything she deems as undesirable, she gives me the death stare until I figure out what either one might be doing. They finish their dinners and do their chores and that is it. 

Conversely, when my 2 are there and my wife happens to be working, they talk about their days, they answer all my questions, they talk about things they do at their mom's house, we joke around and they laugh, etc. It's like a night/day change having my wife there, to be honest.


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> Wow. I checked the link. Yes, yes, and yes. That is my wife. Especially the part under the heading "Vulnerability". To a T.


OK.

I’m not a shrink and I couldn’t diagnose your wife through you even if I was.

But at this point I’m thinking either Antisocial Personality Disorder, or Borderline Personality Disorder/Narcissism is a possibility. Fair warning though - sometimes things like PTSD can trigger things BPD behaviours without them actually “being” BPD.

What I guess I’m trying to say is for you to find a qualified therapist to discuss this with, and encourage her to do the same. Please don’t label her with anything you read on the internet though - just encourage IC for each of you and eventually MC for the both of you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

hubbyintrubby said:


> Obviously it varies a little from night to night. We both have 50/50 custody of our kids, but on different custody schedules. Therefore, we sometimes have just her kids, sometimes have just my kids and sometimes have both sets of kids there.
> 
> The nights when her 2 daughters are there, the 2 get out of hand very quickly and their mother cannot reign them back in. Loudly talking and laughing about inappropriate things, songs, internet crap. Their mother tries to keep them from continuing but has been having an increasingly difficult time doing so. The last episode, they outright were making fun of her for getting upset that they were acting the way they were. Typical "we're just having fun" BS...much more than that. Backtalking, crappy attitudes, etc so bad that it left my wife in tears and me trying to console her as best I could.
> 
> The nights just my 2 are there and my wife is there also as sometimes she works in the evenings, it is very quiet. My children rarely speak, my wife and I try to both start conversations with very little input. If I notice my son sitting on his legs, I make sure that he changes the way he is sitting as that is upsetting to my wife. If either one are doing anything she deems as undesirable, she gives me the death stare until I figure out what either one might be doing. They finish their dinners and do their chores and that is it.
> 
> Conversely, when my 2 are there and my wife happens to be working, they talk about their days, they answer all my questions, they talk about things they do at their mom's house, we joke around and they laugh, etc. It's like a night/day change having my wife there, to be honest.


So, your kids are well behaved, minus a problem or two, while her kids are uncontrollable? Would this be an accurate statement?

Do you all ever eat together with all of the kids in attendance?
How do those dinners go?

Does she allow you to parent or discipline “her” children?


----------



## hubbyintrubby

phillybeffandswiss said:


> So, your kids are well behaved, minus a problem or two, while her kids are uncontrollable? Would this be an accurate statement?
> 
> Do you all ever eat together with all of the kids in attendance?
> How do those dinners go?
> 
> Does she allow you to parent or discipline “her” children?


Mostly well behaved I'd say, yes. They have their moments like any other brother-sister duo, but nothing out of the ordinary. 

We do eat when all are home together, yes. Those dinners my children are also very quiet, will answer questions when asked. Wife's daughter who talks a lot still talks alot. The second daughter is usually very quiet, complains constantly about the food or has recently taken to sitting in a completely different room at a different table eating by herself. Honestly, it's more uncomfortable than anything else, especially lately.

We have in the past disciplined each other's children to a very small extent but have found even in small doses that seems to be too much.

About a month or two ago now, my wife was trying to get her second daughter to clean the stove off as that was her chore for the evening. Daughter was resisting over and over and over and over and over claiming it wasn't her job because she didn't mess it up. Kept resisting over and over again for longer. Kept asking "why do I have to do it?" over and over. I got fed up with the back and forth and simply stated to her "because it's your job" and the daughter went ballistic on me. Told me she hates me, wish I would leave, hates my kids, wishes they would leave and never come back, how much she hates coming to our house, etc etc etc. I haven't spoke directly to that daughter since that happened. She refuses to apologize to either me or my children in any way.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Marduk said:


> OK.
> 
> I’m not a shrink and I couldn’t diagnose your wife through you even if I was.
> 
> But at this point I’m thinking either Antisocial Personality Disorder, or Borderline Personality Disorder/Narcissism is a possibility. Fair warning though - sometimes things like PTSD can trigger things BPD behaviours without them actually “being” BPD.
> 
> What I guess I’m trying to say is for you to find a qualified therapist to discuss this with, and encourage her to do the same. Please don’t label her with anything you read on the internet though - just encourage IC for each of you and eventually MC for the both of you.


She's been to a number of therapists in her life and she is adamant that she has done the work she can do.

We are currently seeing a MC who seems like a relatively good fit. We've only seen him twice, however. I have mentioned that I feel like I almost have a PTSD type reaction to when she gets upset with me and he fully agreed with me that he believes that is the case also.


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> She's been to a number of therapists in her life and she is adamant that she has done the work she can do.
> 
> We are currently seeing a MC who seems like a relatively good fit. We've only seen him twice, however. I have mentioned that I feel like I almost have a PTSD type reaction to when she gets upset with me and he fully agreed with me that he believes that is the case also.


I also have PTSD from my wife - it’s actually secondary PTSD from her PTSD. This stuff is ****ty and sucks.

But if she’s convinced she’s done everything she can do, and it’s still causing havoc at home, then you have a real problem. Best to confront it while taking away any benefit she may get from her behaviour.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Marduk said:


> I also have PTSD from my wife - it’s actually secondary PTSD from her PTSD. This stuff is ****ty and sucks.
> 
> But if she’s convinced she’s done everything she can do, and it’s still causing havoc at home, then you have a real problem. Best to confront it while taking away any benefit she may get from her behaviour.


Honestly, over the past few months she has made a lot of progress in her anger issues and I am proud of her for that. I really am. Getting to the source of what her payoff is for treating people the way she does should be job #1 right now as I really don't know what she gains in "fixing" everything she sees wrong around her.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

hubbyintrubby said:


> Mostly well behaved I'd say, yes. They have their moments like any other brother-sister duo, but nothing out of the ordinary.
> 
> We do eat when all are home together, yes. Those dinners my children are also very quiet, will answer questions when asked. Wife's daughter who talks a lot still talks alot. The second daughter is usually very quiet, complains constantly about the food or has recently taken to sitting in a completely different room at a different table eating by herself. Honestly, it's more uncomfortable than anything else, especially lately.
> 
> We have in the past disciplined each other's children to a very small extent but have found even in small doses that seems to be too much.
> 
> About a month or two ago now, my wife was trying to get her second daughter to clean the stove off as that was her chore for the evening. Daughter was resisting over and over and over and over and over claiming it wasn't her job because she didn't mess it up. Kept resisting over and over again for longer. Kept asking "why do I have to do it?" over and over. I got fed up with the back and forth and simply stated to her "because it's your job" and the daughter went ballistic on me. Told me she hates me, wish I would leave, hates my kids, wishes they would leave and never come back, how much she hates coming to our house, etc etc etc. I haven't spoke directly to that daughter since that happened. She refuses to apologize to either me or my children in any way.


So, what did mom do after this incident?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I remember your other threads. How much longer are your children going to expected to endure this mental abuse because you dont want to divorce this ***** of a woman?


----------



## Taxman

Assuming this is North America, where table manners do count, then I think that it is well advised to get this kid to stop that. Imagine him in 20 years at a business dinner, making an obnoxious sound with his soup spoon. I have worked for men who were never properly advised that their habits were obnoxious. I have watched a business deal evaporate over my boss' insistence that nobody gives a damn about your personal habits. They certainly do. Especially if the customer is from a culture that values manners and customs.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

phillybeffandswiss said:


> So, what did mom do after this incident?


My wife and her had a huge hour long screaming match. Daughter ended up losing her phone for a few days.


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> Honestly, over the past few months she has made a lot of progress in her anger issues and I am proud of her for that. I really am. Getting to the source of what her payoff is for treating people the way she does should be job #1 right now as I really don't know what she gains in "fixing" everything she sees wrong around her.


Two books I’d highly recommend: “I hate you, don’t leave me” and “The Body Keeps the Score.”


----------



## hubbyintrubby

3Xnocharm said:


> I remember your other threads. How much longer are your children going to expected to endure this mental abuse because you dont want to divorce this ***** of a woman?


Honestly, I am trying to work on my co-dependence issues. It's why I'm still there. I just read the article from your header, and I am most definitely stuck in "5 Lies That Keep Us Stuck in Dysfunctional Relationships" land.

I've walked away from one marriage when I shouldn't have. I'm scared to death of making the same mistake again.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

What makes you think you should have not walked away previously? Usually divorce is NOT a mistake....


----------



## hubbyintrubby

3Xnocharm said:


> What makes you think you should have not walked away previously? Usually divorce is NOT a mistake....


I know I didn't give my all into working on the problems we had. I had the ability to save my first marriage because our problems really weren't all that bad, and I just chose not to. Yes, divorce in the case of my first marriage was a big mistake and I regret it most days.


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> Honestly, I am trying to work on my co-dependence issues. It's why I'm still there. I just read the article from your header, and I am most definitely stuck in "5 Lies That Keep Us Stuck in Dysfunctional Relationships" land.
> 
> I've walked away from one marriage when I shouldn't have. I'm scared to death of making the same mistake again.


So common.



> With Codependents
> Generally, borderlines are codependent and find another codependent to merge with and to help them. They seek someone to provide stability and to balance their changeable emotionality. Codependents and narcissists who act self-sufficient and control their feelings provide a perfect match. They’re easily seduced by the borderline’s extreme openness, charm, and vulnerability. In addition, the borderline’s passion and intense emotions are enlivening to non-BPD’s, who find being alone depressing or “healthy” people boring. These partners vicariously come alive through the melodrama provided by the borderline.
> 
> The borderline may appear to be the more dependent underdog in the relationship, while his or her partner is the steady, needless and caretaking top dog, but in fact, both are codependent on each other. It can be hard for either of them to leave. They each exercise control in different ways. Codependents also yearn for love and fear abandonment. Codependents already have low self-esteem and poor boundaries, so they placate, accommodate, and apologize when attacked in order to maintain the emotional connection in the relationship. They often become caretakers. They do so sometimes to the point of self-sacrifice or enabling.
> 
> In the process, they give over more and more control to the borderline and further seal their low self-esteem and the couple’s codependency. Giving in to their partner and giving them control does not make either of them feel more safe, but the opposite. Borderlines need boundaries. Setting a boundary can sometimes snap them out of their delusional thinking. Calling their bluff is also helpful. (See also my blog on manipulation.) Both strategies require that codependents build their self-esteem, learn to be assertive, and derive outside emotional support. The relationship can improve when the partner takes steps to heal their codependency. (See Codependency for Dummies.


https://www.whatiscodependency.com/bpd-borderline-personality/


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> My wife and her had a huge hour long screaming match. Daughter ended up losing her phone for a few days.


You know this is abusive behaviour, right? Your wife participating in an hour long screaming match, I mean.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Marduk said:


> You know this is abusive behaviour, right? Your wife participating in an hour long screaming match, I mean.


I'd say her daughter did most of the screaming, but she definitely did some too. Do you think that is still true?


----------



## Blondilocks

Is your wife the woman with whom you had an affair while married to your children's mother?


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Blondilocks said:


> Is your wife the woman with whom you had an affair while married to your children's mother?


Yes


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> I'd say her daughter did most of the screaming, but she definitely did some too. Do you think that is still true?


If it continued and escalated, then I would say yes. 

It’s the parent’s job to de-escalate and shut these things down, not participate in screaming matches.

Everybody loses their **** from time to time. Everybody has a bad parenting moment. But this sounds a little systemic.


----------



## Marduk

Blondilocks said:


> Is your wife the woman with whom you had an affair while married to your children's mother?


Wow, that’s not good.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Marduk said:


> Wow, that’s not good.


No, it's not good at all. It's terrible.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Marduk said:


> If it continued and escalated, then I would say yes.
> 
> It’s the parent’s job to de-escalate and shut these things down, not participate in screaming matches.
> 
> Everybody loses their **** from time to time. Everybody has a bad parenting moment. But this sounds a little systemic.


It was systemic. She's had screaming matches with all of her own children since we've been together. All 4 of them. Her second oldest recently moved out because he could not and refused to deal with her anymore. Moved in full time with his father. Her oldest, also a son, wants nothing to do with her and only calls when he needs something from her.


----------



## Blondilocks

Have you considered that your son is doing this on purpose just to annoy her? 

This may be a bit of a stretch; but, is it possible you're staying with her as a means to validate your very bad choices in the past?

If so, wouldn't it be kinder to your kids and to yourself to admit "hey, I screwed up! but, I'm not going to pay for these mistakes for the rest of my life"? 

You need to leave this woman and the sooner the better.


----------



## Marduk

OK listen, man. I’m going to level with you.

You ****ed up here big-time. Cheated on your ex. Married your abusive affair partner. Exposed your children to your abusive affair partner. Exposed yourself enough that you’re being traumatized.

Time to get the hell out, protect your kids, and spent a long time alone to re-think your decisions in life.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Blondilocks said:


> Have you considered that your son is doing this on purpose just to annoy her?
> 
> This may be a bit of a stretch; but, is it possible you're staying with her as a means to validate your very bad choices in the past?
> 
> If so, wouldn't it be kinder to your kids and to yourself to admit "hey, I screwed up! but, I'm not going to pay for these mistakes for the rest of my life"?
> 
> You need to leave this woman and the sooner the better.


Quite honestly, no, I think he is just truly clueless that he's doing it at all. 

It's not a stretch...it's definitely a part of why I am still in this relationship at all. That I really do know, and I know that's terrible. 

Another huge reason I'm still there is that I've never been alone as an adult man and being so scares the piss out of me.


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> I've never been alone as an adult man and being so scares the piss out of me.


Time to grow up, man. For the sake of your kid if anything. You should go and spend a seriously long period of time being alone, focusing on your kid and your own development.

You created this scenario he is now living. And he’s just a kid, man. Get him out of this.


----------



## Blondilocks

hubbyintrubby said:


> Quite honestly, no, I think he is just truly clueless that he's doing it at all.
> 
> It's not a stretch...it's definitely a part of why I am still in this relationship at all. That I really do know, and I know that's terrible.
> 
> Another huge reason I'm still there is that I've never been alone as an adult man and being so scares the piss out of me.


You won't be alone. You have two children who need you and are your family. Try putting them first for a change.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

hubbyintrubby said:


> It was systemic. She's had screaming matches with all of her own children since we've been together. All 4 of them. Her second oldest recently moved out because he could not and refused to deal with her anymore. Moved in full time with his father. Her oldest, also a son, wants nothing to do with her and only calls when he needs something from her.


Well this gives a very clear picture of just exactly who she is, doesnt it. When your own children write you off, you KNOW you are effed up. 

Stop being afraid of being alone and man up for your children.


----------



## Blondilocks

Make yourself proud, make your kids proud and make your mom proud by cutting the apron strings. It's time to face adulthood on your own two feet.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Marduk said:


> OK listen, man. I’m going to level with you.
> 
> You ****ed up here big-time. Cheated on your ex. Married your abusive affair partner. Exposed your children to your abusive affair partner. Exposed yourself enough that you’re being traumatized.
> 
> Time to get the hell out, protect your kids, and spent a long time alone to re-think your decisions in life.


I BEYOND ****ed up. I know.

It's crazy to read the stories here on TAM and not yell at my screen..."JUST LEAVE, DUH!!!" and not to be able to get myself to move on myself, for myself or even for my kids. That is also beyond ****ed up. That seems to be an issue that a lot of people go through here....wait, wait, wait, wait, wait to move on, even when it's CRYSTAL CLEAR that is what needs to happen. Even I see it.


----------



## Elizabeth001

So...how long do you plan on making your children pay for your bad decisions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Elizabeth001 said:


> So...how long do you plan on making your children pay for your bad decisions?


If you were in my shoes, from this moment on, what would you do?


----------



## Elizabeth001

hubbyintrubby said:


> If you were in my shoes, from this moment on, what would you do?




Leave her ass YESTERDAY. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elizabeth001

And if I could not leave IMMEDIATELY, I would no longer subject my children to her lunacy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Once your kids' peace, dignity and security is being destroyed by another person, THAT is the time that you get out. No parent should allow their children to be treated in this way. I went through some crap with my second husband that was starting to trickle down to my daughter... I snapped and left. End of story.


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> I BEYOND ****ed up. I know.
> 
> It's crazy to read the stories here on TAM and not yell at my screen..."JUST LEAVE, DUH!!!" and not to be able to get myself to move on myself, for myself or even for my kids. That is also beyond ****ed up. That seems to be an issue that a lot of people go through here....wait, wait, wait, wait, wait to move on, even when it's CRYSTAL CLEAR that is what needs to happen. Even I see it.


So then do it.

Open google maps, type in divorce lawyers to find ones nearby, pick up the phone, call and make an appointment.

You could to that right now, at this very moment. So why aren’t you?


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Marduk said:


> So then do it.
> 
> Open google maps, type in divorce lawyers to find ones nearby, pick up the phone, call and make an appointment.
> 
> You could to that right now, at this very moment. So why aren’t you?


I have nowhere to go. If I stay in the house, my kids will continue to be subject to her as she does a lot of her work from home and she is there 90% of the time and she's made it clear she isn't going anywhere. In the past I've stayed with my folks who are close by, but that is so damn pathetic. 40 year old man and his kids staying at his parents house for God knows how long.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

hubbyintrubby said:


> I have nowhere to go. If I stay in the house, my kids will continue to be subject to her as she does a lot of her work from home and she is there 90% of the time and she's made it clear she isn't going anywhere. In the past I've stayed with my folks who are close by, but that is so damn pathetic. 40 year old man and his kids staying at his parents house for God knows how long.


Beats the hell out of subjecting your children to mistreatment. Everyone needs a helping hand at some point. Suck it up and reach out to them.


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> I have nowhere to go. If I stay in the house, my kids will continue to be subject to her as she does a lot of her work from home and she is there 90% of the time and she's made it clear she isn't going anywhere. In the past I've stayed with my folks who are close by, but that is so damn pathetic. 40 year old man and his kids staying at his parents house for God knows how long.


I’m not going to buy into excuses for the consequences of your own decisions. 

Are you going to let your children bear the burden for you buying into them?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Your kids will be happier at grandparents house with you. Just go.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Faithful Wife said:


> Your kids will be happier at grandparents house with you. Just go.


The handful of times we've left in a short-term status from home we've gone to my folks'...and yes, they are 10x happier when they are there.


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> The handful of times we've left in a short-term status from home we've gone to my folks'...and yes, they are 10x happier when they are there.


Your path is clear. Nothing is stopping you except for fear and inertia. 

Both will lessen when you act.


----------



## nekonamida

Hubby, I've been following your other posts to. Do you think that part of the reason why you fight so hard for a situation that is toxic to you and your kids is because you gave up a decent marriage for this one? Is it shame and guilt ruling your codependency?



hubbyintrubby said:


> In the past I've stayed with my folks who are close by, but that is so damn pathetic. 40 year old man and his kids staying at his parents house for God knows how long.


What's worse - being pathetic or being a sad, whipped, fearful husband and a bad father who lets his wife abuse his kids?

Think hard about this - would you rather have your wife or your kids?

Because this:



hubbyintrubby said:


> Her oldest, also a son, wants nothing to do with her and only calls when he needs something from her.


Will be you one day. You don't have to be the abusive one to have your kids not want anything to do with you. You just have to sit back and allow the abuse to take place. Worse yet, because you're correcting behavior that has zero effect on her like how your son sits at the table, you're aiding your wife's abuse. It doesn't matter how "bothered" by it she is. It does not harm her in one single way. She harps on it so that she can keep having something to hold over your son's head as proof to why he's a bad child and why she's right to resent him.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

nekonamida said:


> Hubby, I've been following your other posts to. Do you think that part of the reason why you fight so hard for a situation that is toxic to you and your kids is because you gave up a decent marriage for this one? Is it shame and guilt ruling your codependency?
> 
> 
> 
> What's worse - being pathetic or being a sad, whipped, fearful husband and a bad father who lets his wife abuse his kids?
> 
> Think hard about this - would you rather have your wife or your kids?
> 
> Because this:
> 
> 
> 
> Will be you one day. You don't have to be the abusive one to have your kids not want anything to do with you. You just have to sit back and allow the abuse to take place. Worse yet, because you're correcting behavior that has zero effect on her like how your son sits at the table, you're aiding your wife's abuse. It doesn't matter how "bothered" by it she is. It does not harm her in one single way. She harps on it so that she can keep having something to hold over your son's head as proof to why he's a bad child and why she's right to resent him.


Yes, guilt and shame have a lot to do with it, yes. From the affair, from leaving, from getting addicted to this relationship and not doing something about it sooner, from allowing my children to be witness to this ***t show at all. 

I keep stupidly thinking, things will get better, just like every other sad sack on this website who sounds, looks, talks and acts like me.


----------



## Blondilocks

hubbyintrubby said:


> The handful of times we've left in a short-term status from home we've gone to my folks'...and yes, they are 10x happier when they are there.


There is your answer. 

You have no idea how many adult kids move back home with mom and dad when going through a divorce or a job loss. It happens every day.

There goes that excuse. Sling your next one at us.

You may think you made your bed so you're going to lie in it come hell or high water but you're the one who had all the fun sneaking around - not your kids. They're just the ones paying the price. Do the right thing and put them first. If your pride takes a hit, so be it.


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> Yes, guilt and shame have a lot to do with it, yes. From the affair, from leaving, from getting addicted to this relationship and not doing something about it sooner, from allowing my children to be witness to this ***t show at all.
> 
> I keep stupidly thinking, things will get better, just like every other sad sack on this website who sounds, looks, talks and acts like me.


They will get better.

When you act.


----------



## Faithful Wife

So I went back and read your first thread. You had moved out in July.

Why did you go back? Why can't you muster that same courage again now? Stop cycling through this over and over. You will not stop being miserable until you end this thing. Your guilt isn't what is crushing you, the reality of how you are living is.

I'm divorced twice also and it was a horrible, painful, personal thing to feel like such a frikken loser.

But what I'm finding now is that no one but me actually cares. I beat myself up for that BEFORE it even became a reality. But now, I know that while I made mistakes, I will not make them again precisely because the price I paid in my own humiliation will prevent me from it.

That's where you will be once you get free of this mess.


----------



## aquarius1

I honestly can't believe that I am reading this. You are going to let your kids pay for your mistakes. Put up with an abusive controlling person. 

They are begging for you to help them and you are letting them down because you are letting your pride get in the way (living with parents). They are going to become dysfunctional as a result of this. 
It will impact their relationships with others far into the future.

I agree with Marduk. Pick up the phone. Make the appointment. 10 minutes with someone outside this situation will convince you that you and your kids are being abused.

You need to stop thinking about yourself, your wounds, your hurt and your mistakes and look at your children. Look them in the eyes. Then leave her.

Your life will improve dramatically with this one step. Its only going to get better from there.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Faithful Wife said:


> So I went back and read your first thread. You had moved out in July.
> 
> Why did you go back? Why can't you muster that same courage again now? Stop cycling through this over and over. You will not stop being miserable until you end this thing. Your guilt isn't what is crushing you, the reality of how you are living is.
> 
> I'm divorced twice also and it was a horrible, painful, personal thing to feel like such a frikken loser.
> 
> But what I'm finding now is that no one but me actually cares. I beat myself up for that BEFORE it even became a reality. But now, I know that while I made mistakes, I will not make them again precisely because the price I paid in my own humiliation will prevent me from it.
> 
> That's where you will be once you get free of this mess.


Almost exactly a year ago, we were in MC and in a terrible place. Our MC suggested we separate...I wanted to separate, but she would not allow it, so I left. All I got was the full-court guilt press which drove me back. I wasn't sure then that divorce was the best option and wanted to stay separated for a while, and she gave me an ultimatum of either move back or she was writing papers. So I moved back then like I moved back in July out of mostly feeling like I needed to and out of pure pure guilt. She WILL NOT allow any kind of separation like I've wanted and she's made that quite clear. It's either stay and work on things, or we are done...nothing in between. In the face of that, my fear has kept me from choosing what I believe is best, and I really do believe leaving is best.


----------



## Andy1001

hubbyintrubby said:


> Almost exactly a year ago, we were in MC and in a terrible place. Our MC suggested we separate...I wanted to separate, but she would not allow it, so I left. All I got was the full-court guilt press which drove me back. I wasn't sure then that divorce was the best option and wanted to stay separated for a while, and she gave me an ultimatum of either move back or she was writing papers. So I moved back then like I moved back in July out of mostly feeling like I needed to and out of pure pure guilt. She WILL NOT allow any kind of separation like I've wanted and she's made that quite clear. It's either stay and work on things, or we are done...nothing in between. In the face of that, my fear has kept me from choosing what I believe is best, and I really do believe leaving is best.


Round and round you go. Doing the same thing and hoping for a different result. 
In reality doing nothing but wringing your hands. 
How’s that working out for you?


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Andy1001 said:


> Round and round you go. Doing the same thing and hoping for a different result.
> In reality doing nothing but wringing your hands.
> How’s that working out for you?


The literal definition of insanity. Huh. You're right.

It's not working. Not at all.


----------



## Tex X

hubbyintrubby said:


> It's either stay and work on things, or we are done...nothing in between.


In almost all cases that's the way it should be in my opinion. But it takes two people who are "ALL IN" to make it work. You most definitely are not "ALL IN".



hubbyintrubby said:


> In the face of that, my fear has kept me from choosing what I believe is best, and I really do believe leaving is best.


Ok your move here. What are you going to do?


----------



## aquarius1

Tex X said:


> In almost all cases that's the way it should be in my opinion. But it takes two people who are "ALL IN" to make it work. You most definitely are not "ALL IN".
> 
> 
> 
> Ok your move here. What are you going to do?


I wondered if either one of them is "all in"

Her attitude is "my way or the highway" and "take it or leave it"

hubbyintrubby you sound so defeated. She is pulling the strings. 

You need to carry a VAR with you when you decide to go. I'm worried that she will try ANYTHING to bully you into staying, including a domestic violence charge or allegations of child abuse/sex abuse. The way that you describe her I'm getting the impression that nothing is beyond her.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think her threats of FULL COURT are not for her to decide. It's for the courts to decide. And if she tries her nonsense with a judge, trying to push him/her around I get the impression that it won't go down well.

Please CARRY A VAR. for your safety.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

aquarius1 said:


> I wondered if either one of them is "all in"
> 
> Her attitude is "my way or the highway" and "take it or leave it"
> 
> hubbyintrubby you sound so defeated. She is pulling the strings.
> 
> You need to carry a VAR with you when you decide to go. I'm worried that she will try ANYTHING to bully you into staying, including a domestic violence charge or allegations of child abuse/sex abuse. The way that you describe her I'm getting the impression that nothing is beyond her.
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, but I think her threats of FULL COURT are not for her to decide. It's for the courts to decide. And if she tries her nonsense with a judge, trying to push him/her around I get the impression that it won't go down well.
> 
> Please CARRY A VAR. for your safety.


I do feel defeated and know it's my own fault. I'm rolling over on almost everything these days just to make life easy. I now have a VAR and when I "find my balls" as I've been told here, and leave...it will be running full time around her.


----------



## Blondilocks

hubbyintrubby said:


> I do feel defeated and know it's my own fault. I'm rolling over on almost everything these days just to make life easy. I now have a VAR and when I "find my balls" as I've been told here, and leave...it will be running full time around her.


Give yourself and your kids the best Christmas and New Year's ever and leave in the next month. The secret to happiness is giving your loved ones something to look forward to. Good luck.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Everybody here is right, I need to leave. Had another thing blow up in my face today and I am at a complete loss.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

hubbyintrubby said:


> Everybody here is right, I need to leave. Had another thing blow up in my face today and I am at a complete loss.


Hopefully it wasnt something that hurt your kids... So whats the plan?


----------



## hubbyintrubby

3Xnocharm said:


> Hopefully it wasnt something that hurt your kids... So whats the plan?


It was not, but it has me at the end of my figurative rope. I don't even know what to say anymore.

My plan needs to include leaving this life behind, but I don't know how.


----------



## Faithful Wife

hubbyintrubby said:


> 3Xnocharm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully it wasnt something that hurt your kids... So whats the plan?
> 
> 
> 
> It was not, but it has me at the end of my figurative rope. I don't even know what to say anymore.
> 
> My plan needs to include leaving this life behind, but I don't know how.
Click to expand...

None of us know how we are going to do it at first. But we find a way once we get to that point of no return.

I’m sorry you are going through this. Sending strength and hugs. It will suck but not as much as it sucks to stay.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Faithful Wife said:


> None of us know how we are going to do it at first. But we find a way once we get to that point of no return.
> 
> I’m sorry you are going through this. Sending strength and hugs. It will suck but not as much as it sucks to stay.


I know I'm not the only one going through this and that is a backwards comfort I guess. I appreciate your kind words and support more than you know. 
You're absolutely right. It's going to suck, big-time.


----------



## Faithful Wife

hubbyintrubby said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of us know how we are going to do it at first. But we find a way once we get to that point of no return.
> 
> I’m sorry you are going through this. Sending strength and hugs. It will suck but not as much as it sucks to stay.
> 
> 
> 
> I know I'm not the only one going through this and that is a backwards comfort I guess. I appreciate your kind words and support more than you know.
> You're absolutely right. It's going to suck, big-time.
Click to expand...

But not as much as it sucks to stay. Always remember that. It’s the only thing to keep you moving forward.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Faithful Wife said:


> But not as much as it sucks to stay. Always remember that. It’s the only thing to keep you moving forward.




This. 

Only when you leave, there is a light at the end of the tunnel and you find your way to a much better place. 

Staying is the opposite. It will always suck. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Elizabeth001 said:


> This.
> 
> Only when you leave, there is a light at the end of the tunnel and you find your way to a much better place.
> 
> *Staying is the opposite. It will always suck. *
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Especially for the kids...


----------



## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> It was not, but it has me at the end of my figurative rope. I don't even know what to say anymore.
> 
> My plan needs to include leaving this life behind, but I don't know how.


I believe you’ve been given several plans. Enough to cobble one together for yourself. 

But you’re the one that needs to enact it. 

You have what you need. You just need to do it.


----------



## SpinyNorman

hubbyintrubby said:


> If you've reminded them once, they should just know.


What a sensible expectation to have about raising children.


----------



## pastasauce79

If you have some goals or ideas that you'd like to accomplish but don't know how, you can start a new thread and see how others can guide you. 

Kids are resilient. Kids can change and adapt faster and better than adults. I'm sure your kids are going to be in a better place if you decide to divorce. 

My father in law has been married 5 times. He has cheated on 2 of his previous wives. He's been the target of plenty of jokes through out his life and he's still alive and kicking. 

Sometimes it takes more than once to learn a lesson. Your ego might take a hit for a little bit but you'll be ok. You will survive.

Good luck to you!!


----------



## aquarius1

Several people here can give you some good starting points. See a lawyer. Find an apartment. 

One step at a time. One day at a time. Looking at the big picture is overwhelming. 
Do something for 15 minutes. Set a timer. 15 minutes? Look up some lawyers and give a few a call to book appointments.

15 minutes. Set a timer. Start sorting through your paperwork. Prioritize based on what the lawyer says you need.
15 minutes. Go through your computer files and figure out what you need or not. Or go through your finances.
15 minutes. Start discreetly looking at apartments. 

You get the idea. I learned the 15 minute rule And never thought it would make a difference. But it does. You do what you can for 15 minutes, then you stop.

I do 15 minute bursts 2 or 3 times a day with LOTS of breaks in between. Plus i work. Sometimes i only get 1-15 minute session in for the day. 
Good enough.

It didn’t get this way in a day and its not going to be over in one day. But work towards freedom for yourself and your kids.

Oh, how they’ll thank you!


----------



## Blondilocks

Call the lawyer you used for your last divorce. That will save you one decision to make. Ask mom & dad if you and the kids can move in there until you get things sorted. Decisions will come easier when you're not in a battle zone.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Blondilocks said:


> Call the lawyer you used for your last divorce. That will save you one decision to make. Ask mom & dad if you and the kids can move in there until you get things sorted. Decisions will come easier when you're not in a battle zone.


I'd definitely use a different one. He was terrible. I've already looked 2 up and have an appointment with 1 of them coming up in the next couple of days.


----------



## aquarius1

hubbyintrubby said:


> I'd definitely use a different one. He was terrible. I've already looked 2 up and have an appointment with 1 of them coming up in the next couple of days.


There you go. Step one. Done!

One foot in front of the other, journey of a thousand miles and all that. Head down. Goal in mind. Kids in mind. 

You can thank us later


----------



## frusdil

It irritates the living heck out of me when people are loud, messy eaters. It's gross and it's annoying. I can't stand it. Your son needs to stop doing this. Your wife needs to shut up and let you manage your son and if reminding him every time he does it is what you need to do, then she needs to suck it and leave it to you. She can't have it both ways.


----------



## frusdil

Ok I've now read the rest of the thread...holy crap...she's hard work and cruel. Gtfo asap.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

How are things going for you, @hubbyintrubby? Making any progress?


----------



## hubbyintrubby

3Xnocharm said:


> How are things going for you, @hubbyintrubby? Making any progress?


Thanks for checking in. Things are alright. Going forward, the one thing that sounds like it'll be anything close to a problem is the house we bought together just back in February. Just focusing on the good right now, the kids and our time together, and work.

Majorly beating myself up over all of that precious lost time with my children where I focused on her and not them.


----------



## Amschaft

I agree its poor table manners, and not just your wife being controlling. If she's expressed numerous times that it bothers her, then why allow such a silly thing to keep happening? As a grown adult yourself, you know its possible to eat without dragging the silverware across your teeth and your son is most likely not only aware of his actions, but most likely continues the behavior because 1. It bothers his stepmom and stepsister and 2. Clearly creates an issue between you, his father, and his stepmom where you are forced to either "choose" him or her (in his mind). If it doesn't bother you, it should. Even if YOU don't consider it poor table manners, consider if he were 25 years old out to dinner with potential business clients, or maybe potential in-laws. Most people DO consider it rude, therefore this behavior left uncorrected could have a lasting effect into adulthood. But for now, why not simply have some respect for your wife and tell your son to cut it out before he damages his teeth and your marriage.


----------



## aquarius1

Amschaft said:


> I agree its poor table manners, and not just your wife being controlling. If she's expressed numerous times that it bothers her, then why allow such a silly thing to keep happening? As a grown adult yourself, you know its possible to eat without dragging the silverware across your teeth and your son is most likely not only aware of his actions, but most likely continues the behavior because 1. It bothers his stepmom and stepsister and 2. Clearly creates an issue between you, his father, and his stepmom where you are forced to either "choose" him or her (in his mind). If it doesn't bother you, it should. Even if YOU don't consider it poor table manners, consider if he were 25 years old out to dinner with potential business clients, or maybe potential in-laws. Most people DO consider it rude, therefore this behavior left uncorrected could have a lasting effect into adulthood. But for now, why not simply have some respect for your wife and tell your son to cut it out before he damages his teeth and your marriage.


Please read the ENTIRE thread before you come out with a blaming statement like this.
You will see thst his STBXW is bat sh** crazy , a complete control freak and mentally cruel.
Is it possible that the young boy is at his limit with this woman and actively trying to annoy her?
Given her craziness, i would be.


----------



## aquarius1

hubbyintrubby said:


> Thanks for checking in. Things are alright. Going forward, the one thing that sounds like it'll be anything close to a problem is the house we bought together just back in February. Just focusing on the good right now, the kids and our time together, and work.
> 
> Majorly beating myself up over all of that precious lost time with my children where I focused on her and not them.


One step at a time. Kids first. Freedom from this insanity. 
You cant make up the time, best thing you can do is get out quickly so you dont waste anymore.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

aquarius1 said:


> One step at a time. Kids first. Freedom from this insanity.
> You cant make up the time, best thing you can do is get out quickly so you dont waste anymore.


I can't make this up. My STBXW tried her hardest to make me feel as guilty as possible for trick-or-treating with my son...without her. Constant text messages while out with him, telling me she can't believe I wouldn't adhere to her wishes that I would have stayed closer to home with him to trick-or treat as opposed to take him to where he traditionally trick-or-treats and has since he was very small. I'm being as kind as I feel like I can possibly be under the circumstances, but funny, I still cannot seem to do anything right. In the past, these feelings would have created a ton of self-hate...now...I really could not care less. I guess this is progress.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Not buying into her bullcrap IS progress! She was making Halloween all about her, for whatever reason. How dare you not comply?


----------



## Faithful Wife

hubbyintrubby said:


> I can't make this up. My STBXW tried her hardest to make me feel as guilty as possible for trick-or-treating with my son...without her. Constant text messages while out with him, telling me she can't believe I wouldn't adhere to her wishes that I would have stayed closer to home with him to trick-or treat as opposed to take him to where he traditionally trick-or-treats and has since he was very small. I'm being as kind as I feel like I can possibly be under the circumstances, but funny, I still cannot seem to do anything right. In the past, these feelings would have created a ton of self-hate...now...I really could not care less. I guess this is progress.


This just seems to be how she is. You aren't ever going to and never have been "able to do anything right". Which when your self esteem is low can really make you feel bad, but once you get it back it will just be obvious that SHE has weird issues which are actually about herself, not you. Keep moving forward and get your kid out of there ASAP.


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## aquarius1

hubbyintrubby said:


> I can't make this up. My STBXW tried her hardest to make me feel as guilty as possible for trick-or-treating with my son...without her. Constant text messages while out with him, telling me she can't believe I wouldn't adhere to her wishes that I would have stayed closer to home with him to trick-or treat as opposed to take him to where he traditionally trick-or-treats and has since he was very small. I'm being as kind as I feel like I can possibly be under the circumstances, but funny, I still cannot seem to do anything right. In the past, these feelings would have created a ton of self-hate...now...I really could not care less. I guess this is progress.


Regardless of her insecure, controlling stupidity, I hope that you had a really great time with your son out there last night. What was he dressed up as?


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## hubbyintrubby

aquarius1 said:


> Regardless of her insecure, controlling stupidity, I hope that you had a really great time with your son out there last night. What was he dressed up as?


We had an EXCELLENT time! It was actually an awesome night. We dropped my daughter off at a friend's house and it was just him and I trick-or-treating. He was dressed up as a skeleton, and he had an awesome night too!


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## aquarius1

​


hubbyintrubby said:


> We had an EXCELLENT time! It was actually an awesome night. We dropped my daughter off at a friend's house and it was just him and I trick-or-treating. He was dressed up as a skeleton, and he had an awesome night too!


So GLAD for both of you.
Please remember these moments and feelings when you are tempted to stay with her.
You and the kids are going to be just fine.


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## hubbyintrubby

aquarius1 said:


> ​
> So GLAD for both of you.
> Please remember these moments and feelings when you are tempted to stay with her.
> You and the kids are going to be just fine.


This is a very conflicting happy, but at the same time sad thought, but...the times that it has just been my son, my daughter and I have been the best most positive moments in life for far too long now. My STBXW would literally count down the days until the kids LEAVE the house, while I have always counted down the days until they come back from their mom's house. 

Ugh.


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## 3Xnocharm

That paints a pretty clear picture, doesn’t it...


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## hubbyintrubby

3Xnocharm said:


> That paints a pretty clear picture, doesn’t it...


Crystal clear. I've just been looking at the picture with wax paper taped over my face for way too long.


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## Openminded

The longer you stay the less time you have to make great memories with your children.


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## Adelais

Glad you've removed the wax paper from your face. Your children will thank you and be by your side when you are old, rather than be angry that they lived miserable lives in their childhood because of your choices.


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## hubbyintrubby

I'd give anything to get the past 3 or 4 years back. I'm not doing well today. Lots of anxiety and lots of depressive thoughts. Haven't been eating or sleeping well. Nobody to talk to about any of it.


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## aquarius1

keep posting here. Someone is always awake to reply. Its ONLY 3-4 years. Be thankful it wasnt 30-40


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## Openminded

Don’t let thoughts of past mistakes control you. Focus on what you want the next three or four years to look like and work on that.


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## Elizabeth001

hubbyintrubby said:


> I'd give anything to get the past 3 or 4 years back. I'm not doing well today. Lots of anxiety and lots of depressive thoughts. Haven't been eating or sleeping well. Nobody to talk to about any of it.




You’re not going to be able to break out of the cycle of depression until you make a move to get out of this mess. 


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## hubbyintrubby

There was a night at work years ago, the year I left my first wife. I had my first panic attack which should have been my first warning that I was about to make the biggest mistake of my life. Even though I had been pushing her away for quite some time, left our home for a period of time, she came to my rescue. She came to pick me up, to take care of me, to show me and tell me she still loved me, that she still wanted me. I had been staying at my folks' house, but she wanted me to come home. She took me home, and she held me while I cried. She did everything right. She told me she wanted me, that she loved me, that that would never change despite how I had been treating her. She told me she wanted me to stay the night, she wanted me to come home.

I left and I never went home. 

I regret it every single day of my life. That night. That night could have changed my entire life, and I made the wrong choice and I re-live it EVERY single day in my mind. I pray to God to let me have that night to do over, but I know it's not going to happen because this isn't some stupid fantasy. It's life and we live with our consequences for decision we make, good or bad.


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## 3Xnocharm

You really need to work on letting that old regret go, or you will never be successful in your current life. You cheated on XW1, am I remembering right? You have no way to know that going forward if your marriage would have been happy, or even worked out at all. You seem to have a tendency to cling onto everything way too long. You cant change anything that happened in the past, but you can make sure not to do the same thing in the present or the future. All you are doing is making yourself miserable. It sounds like you need IC for sure. You wont regret ending this marriage because your current wife is a btch.


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## hubbyintrubby

3Xnocharm said:


> You really need to work on letting that old regret go, or you will never be successful in your current life. You cheated on XW1, am I remembering right? You have no way to know that going forward if your marriage would have been happy, or even worked out at all. You seem to have a tendency to cling onto everything way too long. You cant change anything that happened in the past, but you can make sure not to do the same thing in the present or the future. All you are doing is making yourself miserable. It sounds like you need IC for sure. You wont regret ending this marriage because your current wife is a btch.


True, I don't know if it all would worked out in the end. I know I should have tried a hell of a lot harder than I did. Things were not even that bad, I was just a bad person who did a terrible thing to make himself feel better. Yes, I cheated.

I know. I'm miserable right now. These old regrets aren't helping, I know that too. It's all piling on high. Even people at work are starting to notice how miserable I am, and I really don't share that many details about my life at work. People just kind of...know, and they see it now too.


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## 3Xnocharm

Put your focus on your future, and your plan on how to get there. You are the only one in control of your thoughts and actions, so currently you are making the choice to make yourself miserable. Refocus. You need a plan.


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## Openminded

Would you want her to take you back — if she would?


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## hubbyintrubby

Openminded said:


> Would you want her to take you back — if she would?


Yes. Every time I drop the kids off at her house, I think to myself....I just want to come home. 

Nothing else is home.


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## Openminded

hubbyintrubby said:


> Yes. Every time I drop the kids off at her house, I think to myself....I just want to come home.
> 
> Nothing else is home.


Unfortunately, you’re married now so don’t try to talk to her until after you’re divorced. You need to be alone for awhile and work on you or you could repeat the same mistakes you did before.


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## hubbyintrubby

Openminded said:


> Unfortunately, you’re married now so don’t try to talk to her until after you’re divorced. You need to be alone for awhile and work on you or you could repeat the same mistakes you did before.


No, no. That won't be happening. I feel like I've done enough work on myself to know that what was wrong enough with me in the past to make me do that, has been dealt with. At this point, I pretty much know XW1 wouldn't take me back anyway. Even if she did, I know I need time alone without a partner to do some more personal work on myself and give much more time to my kids.


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## Elizabeth001

hubbyintrubby said:


> No, no. That won't be happening. I feel like I've done enough work on myself to know that what was wrong enough with me in the past to make me do that, has been dealt with. At this point, I pretty much know XW1 wouldn't take me back anyway. Even if she did, I know I need time alone without a partner to do some more personal work on myself and give much more time to my kids.




Atta’ boy!


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## Adelais

Is your ex wife remarried?


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## hubbyintrubby

Adelais said:


> Is your ex wife remarried?


She's not, but she does have a boyfriend. I have no idea how serious it is.


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