# For the 40-60 crowd: how do you spend/budget, etc?



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

I'm trying to get us simpler. Drives me crazy how much time my wife spends entering every single receipt into software...buys 5 things, returns 4 because the 5th one was from the cheaper store. All those returns are more entries into the software.

We have a guideline for our coming retirement, that sets an annual spending limit, let's call it $20,000. We picked the figure (that's not the real figure) because for years, we were under it, without really trying. The year we started setting up for retirement, I insisted we buy younger cars, so I don't spend my retirement fixing them. So, out with the 25 and 28 year old cars, in with a 3-year old for me, and showroom-new for her. But that meant we spent $50k on cars alone that year and she's freaked that "now that it's been done once, it'll be a habit."

When I talk to other 60-somethings about how they keep spending in check, not a single one says they have a budget, nor do any of them use any kind of software. Not one. Usually "our retirement guy says we can spend this much this year" and how much we spent last year. If we need to adjust, we eat out less and stuff like that, or we'll ask him if it's OK to replace a car this year. Nobody said anything about checking account balances monthly, or having software report what categories of spending hit the budget or not; nobody said "this much for house, that much for cars". I want to get there...where it's just working and we don't have to obsess and talk about it daily.

How do you do it? Know how much you can spend, and stay within it? Is it just a matter of knowing what lifestyle you've been leading and keep leading it with no changes?


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

We have a travel visa and put pretty much everything on it. We can pretty much just keep track in our heads where things are. We only have the visa and the line of credit to keep track of as far as debt, and it's all with the one bank, so we can just log in and see whatever we need to see if we want to.

Hubby obsesses way more than I do about money, but he's managed to relax quite a bit in the last few years. We just remind each other about things that need to be paid if we think of them. We each have specific things we pay.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

We combine our incomes in one account. Bills are paid out of that. If we are saving money for retirement beyond our 401Ks, then that money is taken out of this account and put into a separate account every month.

We set a fun-money budget and track on a spreadsheet. We can each spend our budget on basically anything we want. The rest is spent on normal living expenses, and shared entertainment.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Worry about big things in budget, not small. Pointless to worry about $4.95 when you have big numbers looming...


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Dog,

This thread is inconsistent with your other threads. Why did you repeatedly mention "we" in the initial post? 

Are you considering the option of not divorcing but instead trying to get her to emotionally accept a retirement annual spend limit? If so, we can help with that. 

I get the impression that you know how to handing spending in retirement but need to convince her. Is that it?


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

OP, your wife clearly has a problem: she's OCD regarding money. It's counterproductive, and sucks all the joy out of living.

As for us, we do our own planning, but may talk to a financial planner in a year or so to check things over. We do have a budget, just so we have a baseline to compare to occasionally. We don't track individual expenses - if we need that information, our credit cards and online bill pay categorize our spending for us. We can project our income, expenses, and taxes, and even account for inflation and how life expectancy affects it all.

Still, there can be unforeseen complexities in retirement. Do you know how much social security will pay, and how to maximize it? How much your retirement savings will provide, and when/how much your minimum distributions from IRAs, etc., will be? What will the taxes be on all that? How much will you pay for various parts of Medicare? What about the health costs that are not covered (dental, vision, etc.) - did you plan for them? And yes, you may have to replace cars eventually, too. NONE of these things are addressed by what your wife is doing.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Dog,
> 
> This thread is inconsistent with your other threads. Why did you repeatedly mention "we" in the initial post?
> 
> ...


I do not want a divorce. However, it may be the path I choose. On the counselor's advice, I'm seeking to understand both paths.

I want to be able to offer to my wife, several alternatives to the time-consuming way that she currently tracks spending. I know what I've done in my past, but she is far more convinced if it is an idea that comes from outside us as a couple...so I'm seeking to find out what others have done, present her with several options from elsewhere, and let her make choices.

She exhibits very high anxiety about money in general, but one of the toipcs is that she spends all the time entering all the data, why don't I help? The reason I don't is that I do not see the effort as having value. It is her anxiety, not mine. Thanks to counseling, she understands that concept. With money, as with anything else, she can only see one way to do it - do every possible step you can, the more detail you do, the more likely you'll do it perfectly. Until she's so frustrated she stops completely.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> OP, your wife clearly has a problem: she's OCD regarding money. It's counterproductive, and sucks all the joy out of living.


That's my opinion, too. I have at least evolved to the point that her OCD sucks the joy out of her life, but not mine. My objective in helping her spend less time at it, is so that there's more time for "us"...I got married to have a partner in activities, not a data-entry clerk 



Married but Happy said:


> Do you know how much social security will pay, and how to maximize it?


Yes



Married but Happy said:


> How much your retirement savings will provide,


That's an adjustable figure, within bounds, based on evaluating risk/reward. We have it in a dollar range.



Married but Happy said:


> and when/how much your minimum distributions from IRAs, etc., will be?


One of the reasons the financial advisors have said you shouldn't work any more is that we're already in a position where the min distributions, when we get there, plus SS, will put us into an "interesting" tax bracket...in other words, any added income you create now will be hit fairly hard with taxes anyway, so why not enjoy life.



Married but Happy said:


> How much will you pay for various parts of Medicare?


Haven't gotten estimates I believe yet, but so far, all estimates are well beneath what we would pay for health insurance today, were it not provided by her job.



Married but Happy said:


> What about the health costs that are not covered (dental, vision, etc.) - did you plan for them?


'been paying those out of pocket all along, so they're already in our averaged annual spending plan.



Married but Happy said:


> And yes, you may have to replace cars eventually, too.


We'll be 80 when the warranty on hers expires. But it's not a big deal...we only have 'expensive' cars now because I wanted that experience once. In 15 years, I'll be happy to drop back to buying cars that cost six months worth of groceries...they've been steady companions for 40+ years!


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

How long is warranty again? :grin2:

More likely the warranty will expire on her first.

BTW, how did you learn so quickly how to put all those multiple quotes in one post?


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Try that again. She is 60/61. How long is warranty again? :grin2:


20 years, 200,000 miles. Basic on this vehicle is 5 yrs/60k miles, but it's a Toyota Hybrid, and the std warranty for the hybrid portions, in the three CONUS states that border the Pacific Ocean, is 10 years, 150,000 miles. Toyota's so confident in their vehicles that a 20 year 200,000 mile warranty is available for all of them nominally cheaply - $99 for the smaller cars. Where I live, all local dealers throw that in for free. Wife chose to "option up" on warranty and paid another $800 to expand that 20/200k to "bumper to bumper".



blueinbr said:


> More likely the warranty will expire on her first.


Even if not, she's so spooked about driving that I"d be surprised if she wants to drive then anyway. No way to know how long she'll live. Her dad died at 38, apparently of stress. His older sister drank herself to death at 42, but an even older sister is now 93, despite being heavy and a heavy smoker. Her mom, always obese and a heavy smoker, is now 87, but all of her siblings left these mortal coils in their 50s.



blueinbr said:


> BTW, how did you learn so quickly how to put all those multiple quotes in one post?


I learn a lot from user-based discussion forums. When I'm studying a vehicle I might want, I join an online forum focusing on it. Likewise, I've joined bass-player forums, woodworker forums, Asian cooking forums, etc. All these forums seem to run on the same software base, so there was really nothing new for me to learn.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I'm 48, and i don't have a "hard copy" of a budget. I guess i just have a lifestyle and I know whether or not I need to spend extra as it comes up. My salary covers my bills fine, so the only thing I would need to budget for would be the extras. I don't lead a fancy lifestyle, so it's not a problem with me.


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

@DustyDog My H & I don't use any sort of software or spreadsheet for budgeting. I think you're smart to do that though. But it seems to be taking on a life of it's own and creating more anxiety. And, I'm sure that wasn't the intent of it. 

I think that I'm more of a saver than a spender. My H is more of a spender than a saver (but he is good about looking for deals). I believe in a mix of the 2 to enjoy life. I want to be able to enjoy some things in life now but not to the point that it's beyond our means. It took a while for us to be able to get to this point, but I think we're finally there. I handle all of the finances. We both put a lot into our 401K's. If there's a month that we didn't put money into our savings account, then I'll say that we need to be careful this month or no big ticket items for a few months. If I know that our property taxes are due this month, then I again remind ourselves that it's due and we should be careful about what else we spend money on. This keeps us out of credit card debt and able to put money into savings. This 'system' has worked for us but again, we don't have kids so I would probably imagine families with children needing to have a better budgeting system.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
Entering items onto a spreadsheet is merely a way to track them and compare. We use one credit card for all purchases, groceries and everything, paid in full each month. We get the statement that itemizes each charge and we know each month what we spent on and how much. To me this is considerably easier than entering all of that data into another "tracking" system. However, we live a very modest lifestyle and need very little. My wife went through a period of extravagance several years back and almost caused the end of our marriage but she has since come to see the importance of not being wasteful, or at least pretends to.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DustyDog said:


> *I want to be able to offer to my wife, several alternatives to the time-consuming way that she currently tracks spending. * I know what I've done in my past, but she is far more convinced if it is an idea that comes from outside us as a couple...so I'm seeking to find out what others have done, present her with several options from elsewhere, and let her make choices.
> 
> She exhibits very high anxiety about money in general, but one of the toipcs is that she spends all the time entering all the data, why don't I help? The reason I don't is that I do not see the effort as having value. It is her anxiety, not mine. Thanks to counseling, she understands that concept. With money, as with anything else, she can only see one way to do it - do every possible step you can, the more detail you do, the more likely you'll do it perfectly. Until she's so frustrated she stops completely.


Get the book "Smart Couples Finish Rich" (or "The Automatic Millionaire: A Powerful One-Step Plan to Live and Finish Rich" both are good books by the same guy). It's for both of you to read.

One of the main ideas of the book is that a detailed budget is a waste of time because they are usually broken even before completed.

Instead save 10% (or more) of each pay check, then pay your bills for the month, then any money left over is ok to just spend without fussing over.

One thing that the book does not suggest, but I think is a good idea is to split the monthly discretionary funds 50/50. that way each of you have some spending money.

It might be hard to get her to completely stop using the software. She might just be a detail oriented person. But she can still simplify what she's doing. For example she does not need to categorize everything into little buckets with returns, etc. Instead she can just have a wife's-discressionary category and dump it all in there.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

to continue.. I basically do what the "The Automatic Millionaire: A Powerful One-Step Plan to Live and Finish Rich" book suggests.

All my bills are auto paid from my bank. 

I pay cash for everything (mostly using my ATM card) but do have a credit card for emergencies.

But I download all transactions from my bank accounts, credit card (when used), etc into Quicken. So I do keep a track of it all that way.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

DustyDog said:


> I'm trying to get us simpler. Drives me crazy how much time my wife spends entering every single receipt into software...buys 5 things, returns 4 because the 5th one was from the cheaper store. All those returns are more entries into the software.


You enter EVERY receipt into software?!? Really? Are you already retired with nothing better to do?



DustyDog said:


> When I talk to other 60-somethings about how they keep spending in check, not a single one says they have a budget, nor do any of them use any kind of software. Not one.


Because it's bizarre. Can't you just glance at your bank statement every month and get a general idea if your overspending? 

Obsessing over nickels and dimes is no way to live life..... Just my two cents. Pun intended.


----------



## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

We simply put away everything we earn into our 401(k), stock option and Roth IRA except the bare minimum for survival (insurance, utility, etc). House is completely paid off. We have a credit card that never carries a balance. We don't need to budget because we simply don't have any money to spend. If unexpected money comes in, it all goes into retirement. Unexpected expenses are paid only if we both agree it's worth it. Nothing frivolous gets purchased because it's too much trouble convincing our spouses why it's absolutely needed.

Clark Howard says a car loses half of it's value in the first 5 years. Pay cash for a five year old car and drive it to the ground.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You know how much your monthly/yearly income is. You know how much your fixed expenses are (this can include saving). The rest is discretionary and can be allotted however you see fit. Your wife gets a sense of security out of jotting down every nickel & dime. You don't. You can set it up to where you both go over the accounts every three/four/six months and see if the fixed expenses are increasing and how the discretionary spending is doing. 

You don't have to play her game of managing the spending. And, you don't have to make her problems your own. You don't want to yet it seems as though you are looking for magic words to use on her. Just don't.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Instead save 10% (or more) of each pay check, then pay your bills for the month, then any money left over is ok to just spend without fussing over.


That's part of why it makes no sense to me that she obsesses so much. Oh, and wants me to then pore over the software, figure out how to run outrageously detailed reports, etc.

Neither of us are spenders. We are savers. Drive old but reliable cars (until 2015), eat at home, subscribe to as little as possible (electricity, internet and cell phone is it). Never have we saved 10% of a paycheck, it's always been far more. Any time we were eligible for 401k or IRA, we contributed the max, starting in '94.

My analysis, and that of several financial advisors, is that we could have stopped working 10 years ago.

I read "The Millionaire Next Door" once and chuckled, because we're automatically more frugal than the lifestyles depicted in that book.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DustyDog said:


> That's part of why it makes no sense to me that she obsesses so much. Oh, and wants me to then pore over the software, figure out how to run outrageously detailed reports, etc.
> 
> Neither of us are spenders. We are savers. Drive old but reliable cars (until 2015), eat at home, subscribe to as little as possible (electricity, internet and cell phone is it). Never have we saved 10% of a paycheck, it's always been far more. Any time we were eligible for 401k or IRA, we contributed the max, starting in '94.
> 
> ...


I don't think that the book is suggesting any life-style/spending level but instead a way of handling money that makes it an easy task.

Does your wife fuss over a lot of things? She sounds OCD almost about money.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> You know how much your monthly/yearly income is. You know how much your fixed expenses are (this can include saving). The rest is discretionary and can be allotted however you see fit. Your wife gets a sense of security out of jotting down every nickel & dime. You don't. You can set it up to where you both go over the accounts every three/four/six months and see if the fixed expenses are increasing and how the discretionary spending is doing.
> 
> You don't have to play her game of managing the spending. And, you don't have to make her problems your own. You don't want to yet it seems as though you are looking for magic words to use on her. Just don't.


OK, help me understand this in a tangible way.

She comes to me and says "Our spending is too high, run a report for me" and I say "no" and she's pissed for a week. This is OK? I know how to say "no" gently, by the way, and she acknowledges that indeed, she has the anxiety and I was not given the power by our creator to affect her anxiety...but she still is pissed that I don't seem to exhibit the same anxiety.

Are you saying, just let her remain pissed? 'been doing that for enough years already. Yes, I'm looking for magic words to let her know, gently, that it's not my problem, yet I still "get" the concept that she has emotions about it. Haven't found them yet.

Discretionary: Tried that road once. She puts up a huge argument about what is discretionary and what is not. For instance, $10k on alternative vet care for a healthy dog is "not" discretionary, per her, nor is spending as much on vitamins and supplements as she does actual food. My spending to build a business? Discretionary. So, I think that's not a likely path.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> You enter EVERY receipt into software?!? Really? Are you already retired with nothing better to do?


No, she does. She wishes I would too, but I politely decline.

I am building a business from home...so, neither retired nor have nothing better to do.



BetrayedDad said:


> Because it's bizarre. Can't you just glance at your bank statement every month and get a general idea if your overspending?


LOL! That would send her into never-never land. She wants advance warning of overspending. If there's an "overspend", she goes ballistic. She literally checks the sofware every day - and of course, she also has receipts to enter every day. Grocery shoping includes many stores, as she seeks the one that sells this product for 20 cents less than anybody else.



BetrayedDad said:


> Obsessing over nickels and dimes is no way to live life..... Just my two cents. Pun intended.


My thoughts exactly. A frequent and annoying poster on the CL frugal forum refers to frugal people "counting their pennies every night, sitting in the floor, with nothing but a bare 10 watt light bulb hanging from the ceiling on two frayed wires". Not the way I want to live.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I'd let her remain pissed. She can get happy in the same pants she got mad in. She doesn't have the right to expect you to experience/mirror her negative emotions - it might make her feel better but it is at your expense.

How you determine discretionary income is on you. Set up some discussions and establish guidelines. It seems the two of you are on totally different pages when it comes to matters you consider important. Or, you can split the discretionary 50/50 and be done with it. If she wants to spend all of hers on vet bills and vitamins, that's her right.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> @DustyDog My H & I don't use any sort of software or spreadsheet for budgeting. I think you're smart to do that though. But it seems to be taking on a life of it's own and creating more anxiety. And, I'm sure that wasn't the intent of it.


I'm the one who started using software, but that was before we met. I had just ended a 3 year round of unemployment, and the new job paid 40% less than the one I had before. Happily, I had savings to live on, so no debt occurred. I had also split from my ex, was now a renter instead of homeowner, moved to get the job...lots of financial changes.

A "budget" is a declaration of pre-determined amounts that you will spend on various categories over a specified period of time. For consumers, a year is the best period of time, since none of our bills are payable in larger blocks...property taxes are annual, for instance, and that's the longest one.

But, in a new lifestyle, it's hard to know what budget to set. So, a common thing to do is track every single thing you spend on, and after a few months you have a general idea. And..this was in the early 90s...bank statements online were still in the future. Some vendors would accept only cash, some only cash or checks, some only checks or cards, etc. You had no choice but to use all three forms of payment. Tracking it took software. I could have done it in a spreadsheet, but actual financial software made a lot of it easier and at the time, Quicken was $9.95 and came on one convenient 3.5 inch floppy disk (those were the days!).

Took me only a few months to figure a budget and then set it. For "bills", I figured a year's worth, and placed that amount in a savings account tied to checking. I checked on things maybe quarterly and refilled the savings account when it was below the annual amount. I had been laid off for three years, so my highest priority now was to be capable of another 3 year layoff without financial distress. I was single, doing lots of stuff to socialize, and of course, buying regular groceries. I took the 3 month avg, added 20%, and called that my "minimum" in my checking account. If it dropped below, I'd cut back somewhere for a while. This worked out while maximizing 401k and IRA accounts.

I ignored the software for a while.

Then in '99 I moved and got married, got out the software to once again track the new spending...and the wife got hooked on it. So, phooey on me....


I kept using Quicken after that, but only to track my business expenses for tax purposes.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

You're problem @DustyDog is very simple. You're a doormat. Stand up to your wife and tell her "NO". 

Keep separate finances and split the bills as they come in. Let her freak out about her half. It will no longer be your issue.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

What I have learned after divorce was to filter everything through a credit card with cash back points. And I mean EVERYTHING! If I could filter my mortgage payment through that I would lol.

Reason being it 2 fold, one everything is in One spot which I can access online anytime. No input of any data just need to look once a week

Second the cash back is great. This year I moved and paid off bills, a truck, new flooring, moving expenses. I how have 600$Cash back rewards that I will use for my Ireland trip in two months. It is essentially just free money I wouldn't have otherwise had if I paid cash. Now why do the banks do this? Because most people don't pay off thier CC each month and I do to avoid any fees. Most people carry a balance which in the end benefits the bank. If you can be disciplined and pay off your CC each month this is a great way to go for some free money


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

KillerClown said:


> We simply put away everything we earn into our 401(k), stock option and Roth IRA except the bare minimum for survival (insurance, utility, etc). House is completely paid off. We have a credit card that never carries a balance. We don't need to budget because we simply don't have any money to spend. If unexpected money comes in, it all goes into retirement. Unexpected expenses are paid only if we both agree it's worth it. Nothing frivolous gets purchased because it's too much trouble convincing our spouses why it's absolutely needed.
> 
> Clark Howard says a car loses half of it's value in the first 5 years. Pay cash for a five year old car and drive it to the ground.


I think you are wise and reasonable. 

Since about '95, I have paid into the 401k and IRA at the max legal limit. Always bought 10 year old cars with 150k+ miles on them and got another 150k out of them without a single repair that cost more than tires. Never subscribed to cable TV, wouldn't consider paying for grass trimming or house cleaning, did my own normal auto maint (buff & wax, oil change, tuneups). Bought a significant portion of my clothing at Goodwill. Cash to spare went into another investment account, and most years it was as much as went into the 401k.

After doing this all these years, I'm ready to stop. There's enough. I do not belong to the crowd that says "If a bunch of money is good, then a whole bunch is good". If you don't have a set target, then you won't know when to stop working toward it!

I stopped working a regular day job about a year ago and wife has been inconsolable since, and has obsessed more and more about money. There's enough.

**sigh**


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> What I have learned after divorce was to filter everything through a credit card with cash back points. And I mean EVERYTHING! If I could filter my mortgage payment through that I would lol.
> 
> Reason being it 2 fold, one everything is in One spot which I can access online anytime. No input of any data just need to look once a week
> 
> Second the cash back is great. This year I moved and paid off bills, a truck, new flooring, moving expenses. I how have 600$Cash back rewards that I will use for my Ireland trip in two months. It is essentially just free money I wouldn't have otherwise had if I paid cash. Now why do the banks do this? Because most people don't pay off thier CC each month and I do to avoid any fees. Most people carry a balance which in the end benefits the bank. If you can be disciplined and pay off your CC each month this is a great way to go for some free money


Actually, banks do this because of the overwhelming statistic that shows that if people use cards instead of cash, they spend, on average 2X as much. I've taken a few marketing classes and this example is brought up in all of them.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> You're problem @DustyDog is very simple. You're a doormat. Stand up to your wife and tell her "NO".
> 
> Keep separate finances and split the bills as they come in. Let her freak out about her half. It will no longer be your issue.


One of the things I strive for is to NOT look like a control freak. The income came from me, the bulk of the net worth is in my name....not by choice, but you cannot put two names on IRAs and 401ks....by definition, they are individual.

She works a day job that stresses her a lot. No practical income...the company's owner waves the banner high for his employees to plan for retirement. One way is that the company matches 1:1 all 401k contributions, and they do not put a cap on what the employee can contribute, up to the legal limit. At our ages, that's $18,000 contribution plus $6,000 "catch up", for $24k from her...and a matching $24k from the company. So, her total 401k contributions are $48k, not bad for a job that only pays $30k. And, her net income, after the 401k deduction and health insurance is but $4k, meaning our Federal tax bracket is zero percent.

So, we're pulling from one of my 401ks for the rest of what we need.

I don't want to touch money...I just do what I need to do to accomplish the business goals. I love the idea that she just tells me how much I need to draw from that 401k into our long-term savings for the next few months and done. But the request is always preceded by a lengthy emotional...something. There may be a sequence of ideas, they may be connected, but I don't see it, so to me, I'm just trying to not say "how are those ideas connected" because that just drags the conversation out further.

When one person sources all the money, a good deal of care has to be taken by that person, to avoid the impression that he "owns" the other person.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

DustyDog said:


> After doing this all these years, I'm ready to stop. There's enough. I do not belong to the crowd that says "If a bunch of money is good, then a whole bunch is good". If you don't have a set target, then you won't know when to stop working toward it!
> 
> I stopped working a regular day job about a year ago and wife has been inconsolable since, and has obsessed more and more about money. There's enough.
> 
> **sigh**


It's seems like you are the only one trying to compromise. That's not going to work. She needs to show tolerance of your view of money and to be willing to meet you in the middle.

Would you consider marriage counseling to address this issue?!?


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You've tried understanding, and explaining, and empathy, and compromise. None of that has worked. Maybe it's time to confront her obsessions, gently but firmly, and set limits. If necessary, separate your accounts and do not give her information about yours (except maybe at year end). Tough love time, perhaps?


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

DustyDog said:


> Actually, banks do this because of the overwhelming statistic that shows that if people use cards instead of cash, they spend, on average 2X as much. I've taken a few marketing classes and this example is brought up in all of them.


Either way they loose on me 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> It's seems like you are the only one trying to compromise. That's not going to work. She needs to show tolerance of your view of money and to be willing to meet you in the middle.
> 
> Would you consider marriage counseling to address this issue?!?


'been in counseling for over a year. Counselor says she has really deep-seated fears...and believes they are a good thing to have! Thus, change on that matter is unlikely. Therefore, counselor says, I need to concentrate on "taking care of myself". So, my objective is to make some sort of tangible line that says "I will handle everything on this side of the line, you handle everything on that side of the line."


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wolf1974 said:


> What I have learned after divorce was to filter everything through a credit card with cash back points. And I mean EVERYTHING! If I could filter my mortgage payment through that I would lol.
> 
> Reason being it 2 fold, one everything is in One spot which I can access online anytime. No input of any data just need to look once a week
> 
> Second the cash back is great. This year I moved and paid off bills, a truck, new flooring, moving expenses. I how have 600$Cash back rewards that I will use for my Ireland trip in two months. It is essentially just free money I wouldn't have otherwise had if I paid cash. Now why do the banks do this? Because most people don't pay off thier CC each month and I do to avoid any fees. Most people carry a balance which in the end benefits the bank. If you can be disciplined and pay off your CC each month this is a great way to go for some free money


This is what I do... and feel.. darn I wish we could pay college balances/ loans this way & when we had that mortgage....all of it on my credit card..never made $600 back in 1 year though... a good $350 we have ....

We've never written up a budget .... we're not high earners in comparison to many... larger family in tow...we'd never buy a newer car... we have $200 a week going straight into his credit Union.. or maybe it's $150 (I forget)... I just upped his 401K to 40% since I'm working more now...we have been debt free since before having our last son....

We just always seek the best deals, lower cost options -but also weigh it against value...whether it be for vacationing, getting work done on the house...so when something comes up.. we have the money for it.. we've accumulated a nice stash of savings over the years...we try to never get into it... feeling this is more for emergencies...but there have been times we dipped - for a special larger purchase... 

We had a retaining wall built for like $13,000 one year and a month later, bought a shed for $5,000 then a used Utility vehicle for $3,500 all in 3 months.. that was a LARGE dip for us.. but still lots of money to spare....if not..the shed & Yerf Dog just wouldn't have been bought. Those were things on our *"Wanted"* list.. but not really *NEEDED* list..

If ever our funds are low.. we'd only buy what is NEEDED...and wants would take a back seat -till we had a good stash built back up...that's pretty much the core of our managing money...

Like anyone else..there are things we'd love to buy.. a special vacation we'd love to take.. etc..money is there to be enjoyed too.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

your wife is getting a psychological lift from being thrifty. The only way to get past this is to find out what - in her childhood - drove her to believe that she is only worthy and admirable if she can cut every cent off her expenses.

What have you done to explore that?


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

turnera said:


> your wife is getting a psychological lift from being thrifty. The only way to get past this is to find out what - in her childhood - drove her to believe that she is only worthy and admirable if she can cut every cent off her expenses.
> 
> What have you done to explore that?


I see no psychological lift from anything she does. She actually isn't all that thrifty...once she decides something is "necessary", she thinks it's OK to buy it. There were years when she spent over $10,000 on dog care - for a healthy dog. I asked her why and she said "look at what it was spent on, what would you have deprived the dog of?" (in a confrontational voice). She's just fearful - of everything. Not just money. We can go for a walk in the woods and around every corner she utters what animal she thinks is in wait for us!

She was raised upper middle class - the parents were able to afford private school for all six kids. But the parents spoke as if they were broke...they never told the kids "no", they always said "we can't afford it". It was some kind of message from childhood that led her to think that the world is full of lots of badness and the only way to survive is to avoid it. Neither she, nor any of her siblings were taught to seek happiness and goodness, it seems. And there've been no tragedies, no physical abuse or anything like that.

In a year+ of counseling, neither I, nor the counselor, has seen signs that she believes herself worthy of anything...she seems to be driven, if anything, by a need to please someone...obedience to a boss, teacher, parent seemed to be what propelled her in her youth...and at work. An extreme form of what's called a "people pleasure" personality.

But...that's moot, as it's not "my business". My role is to take care of myself, so I'm trying to find ways to spend less time talking about/managing money, without it seeming like I'm telling her off.

Counseling today went oddly, think I'll top post about it.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Her psychological lift is probably that she is not doing what her parents did. And guess what? Even fearful or self-doubting people get 'lifts' or 'feel goods' about things. Every one of us has drivers. If you want a decent marriage, it behooves you to figure hers out.

Or...you could just ignore her and be a roommate.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

turnera said:


> Her psychological lift is probably that she is not doing what her parents did. And guess what? Even fearful or self-doubting people get 'lifts' or 'feel goods' about things. Every one of us has drivers. If you want a decent marriage, it behooves you to figure hers out.
> 
> Or...you could just ignore her and be a roommate.


I don't see a difference between what she is doing and her parents. 

Her parents chose something very expensive (private school), called it "required", then complained from then on that they had no money. All evidence today (based on balances in the estate) are that they had plenty.

My wife chooses things (dogs, alternative health supplements) that she spends a great deal on, calls them "required", then complains perpetually that we spend too much, will run out, etc...despite the evidence in our account balances and advice from financial advisors.

Both her and her parents claimed to be frugal, but were not frugal in a few categories, where they placed no limits on spending.

Seems the same to me, LOL!


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

But that's your opinion. She sees her view through her EMOTIONS about her family.

I'm just trying to say, you can feel what you want about it, but until you can understand how SHE feels about it, nothing will change.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

turnera said:


> But that's your opinion. She sees her view through her EMOTIONS about her family.
> 
> I'm just trying to say, you can feel what you want about it, but until you can understand how SHE feels about it, nothing will change.


I know she sees it through her emotions...as do all unenlightened people (which is all but one in a million of us, including me). Even though I actually do understand this is how it is, nothing will change.

And that's how it should be. It is never "OK" for one person to change - or attempt to change - another. It's just wrong. And I don't generally believe in wrong/right...life is all lived in the rainbow between those black/white views.

You do not change someone else by understanding them. You change you. And that change might be "Oh, I see, this is why. And if this is the way this is, then in order for us to get along, I have to do that. And I don't want to do that, it is something I never would have voluntarily chosen and it's big, so I am done." Not sure that's where I am, but getting closer.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, 'enlightened one,' what are YOU doing to change your family dynamics?


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Send her overseas to do volunteer work in a place where people have to worry about how to feed their kids.

She has some serious issues that budgeting won't fix. If it is not mental health issues then she is just self absorbed and ungreatful. How sad to have the money but not be able to enjoy it.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> Either way they loose on me


Probably not. When you use a card, debit or credit, the merchant is charged a fee by the issuing bank. 1.5 to 2.5 percent for purchases that equal a week of groceries. For very small purchases, a fixed minimum fee. 

Used to be that the prevalence of card usage was driving up prices...that was when fees were typically 5-7%. In the Western World, merchant contracts prohibited different pricing for cash vs. card, so merchants routinely uplifted prices by enough to mostly cover these fees.

As electronic banking came to its full fruition and internet competition arose, the fees dropped to today's lower levels. Plus, the regulations for handling cash, in most jurisdictions, became more strict. So, for most merchants, it's more expensive to handle cash than cards nowadays.

But still, when you use a card, your bank smiles.


----------



## btterflykisses (Apr 29, 2016)

We don't have a budget and are fine. We make important or expensive purchases together. This stops us going crazy over small purchases. I am lucky he pays the bills.


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

I can't and won,t control my wife's spending by arguing or verbal abuse .She works and works hard and doe's very well.

However, as the spending continues.......I just increase my 401K contributions.Which is now up to $650.00 per pay period (26 per year)

I know it seems PA but I have explained this to her if you do X........I will do Y

55


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

just got it 55 said:


> I can't and won,t control my wife's spending by arguing or verbal abuse .She works and works hard and doe's very well.
> 
> However, as the spending continues.......I just increase my 401K contributions.Which is now up to $650.00 per pay period (26 per year)
> 
> ...


I don't think it's P/A...depends on how you conveyed it.

If it's something like "If you do X, then I will have to do Y, so that Z doesn't happen..." e.g., if you spend $50k on window coverings, I will have to reduce our mortgage payment to the minimum so we can pay off the credit card in less than a year" then I don't see it as P/A. It's a simple explanation that when one event occurs, it may become reasonable to take some action differently than previously planned. No more P/A, than saying "If it rains, I will bring an umbrella".

On the other hand, if "Y" is interpreted by the listener as extreme/negative, then it may come across as an ultimatum: "If you spend $50k on window coverings, then I will divorce you". That's not P/A. That's just A.

Money, money, money, why do we choose to screw our heads up about money? At birth, we have no concept of it. It isn't one of the four spheres of life. Thus, it is artificial, e.g., not created in nature. I don't think the purpose of society was to make us slaves to the mechanism for value exchange.

When I grew up in the 60s, the assumption was:
1) Select your chosen lifestyle
2) Figure out the annual income required to sustain it
3) Get education/learn skills/whatever, to achieve #2
4) If #3 seems unattainable, reduce lifestyle expectation to make #1 fit inside what you really can earn.

There was also an assumption that everybody would make dumb mistakes in their 20s but have them cleaned up by 40...spoken by some, assumed by most. A 40 year old with debt other than a mortgage was cited by financial journalists as someone to avoid getting close with. Things have changed...the percentage of folks going into retirement with debt has risen, from 2% in 1970, to 28% in 2015 (US BLS stats).

There was also an expectation, stated overtly, that the Big Picture concept here is to focus on being wise with money for as long as you need to - and then stop. "Money is like oxygen, as long as you have enough, there's no need to worry". Worrying about money in retirement is not a pleasant prospect, since there's a lot less you can do about it!

I made, IMO, an above average number of dumb mistakes including getting fired/laid off frequently...lots of time with no income. I recovered, but not by age 40...at 40, I had zero net worth.

Max out that 401k...when you're 67, you'll be glad you did.


As for communicating with the wife about money - I believe that we have done well enough that the time has arrived to stop putting time into money. I have never told her what/how much to spend. All money discussions have come from her and with so much emotion stirred into the pot that I am unable to discern what she really wants. I tire of endless discussions that begin with me not knowing the purpose, and ending with me not knowing the purpose. Her answer to every money concern seems to be to spend more time with Quicken, although I have recently discovered that in all that time, she has never once evaluated a report produced by Quicken - she simply believes them.


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

DustyDog said:


> I don't think it's P/A...depends on how you conveyed it.
> 
> If it's something like "If you do X, then I will have to do Y, so that Z doesn't happen..." e.g., if you spend $50k on window coverings, I will have to reduce our mortgage payment to the minimum so we can pay off the credit card in less than a year" then I don't see it as P/A. It's a simple explanation that when one event occurs, it may become reasonable to take some action differently than previously planned. No more P/A, than saying "If it rains, I will bring an umbrella".
> 
> ...


 I believe you and I are relatively the same age (60) and we approach budgetary concerns similarly.

Our debt has been reducing but not at the pace I would like

After paying for Education for all 4 of our children (257K) not including additional financial support i.e. autos, cellphones, ins, food.

Not much at the time was going into savings or reducing debt. In fact debt was growing.

Next came the weddings for our two girls.

The first budget was set for 20K knowing what we do for one we had to do for the other. Nope 27K was spent. Now the next one come in 8/17.

What my wife fails to recognize is this..... I want to retire at 66 yrs and 3 mos which gives me full SS benefits not a day more.Working longer only contributes to the system that I will not live long enough to see a return on.

Plus we need to continue improvements on our home to make it maintenance free far as long as we are able to live independently and paid for.

Given the family history on both sides of my parents I should live to apx 84.

I don't want to work to 72 retire and die at 75.Very often men work deep into their life expectancy and die shortly after because their lifestyle has not adapted to the change. 

If my wife wants to continue to spend at the same rate she can work till she drops and support me.

I have told her this in the kindest way I can.

55


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

DustyDog said:


> Probably not. When you use a card, debit or credit, the merchant is charged a fee by the issuing bank. 1.5 to 2.5 percent for purchases that equal a week of groceries. For very small purchases, a fixed minimum fee.
> 
> Used to be that the prevalence of card usage was driving up prices...that was when fees were typically 5-7%. In the Western World, merchant contracts prohibited different pricing for cash vs. card, so merchants routinely uplifted prices by enough to mostly cover these fees.
> 
> ...


Fine by me so long as I pay the same and get cash back :grin2: I have heard they may start having two prices on merchandise. One for cash and one for credit. Could be interesting


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

just got it 55 said:


> After paying for Education for all 4 of our children (257K) not including additional financial support i.e. autos, cellphones, ins, food.


About what the education for myself and my 3 siblings cost back in the late 70s to early 80s...undergrad anyway. The cost of college hasn't really been rising all that fast, what's risen is the expectations for cell phone per student instead of one shared phone in a 4-person apartment. That's real stuff, though...nowadays, texting is an expected method for students to communicate with classmates and profs...the phone's needed.



just got it 55 said:


> Not much at the time was going into savings or reducing debt. In fact debt was growing.


Our society *sigh*...in the 60s and 70s, everybody my age that I knew of, had begun earning money in their young teens. Babysitting, lawn care, whatever. If we wanted something, we instinctively thought about how much it would cost and how many more lawn care customers we needed. I paid 80% of my own college by repairing electronic stuff, my brothers and sister did stuff, too...a few of us took out student loans because we could not earn enough to cover it all, and none of us finished in 4 years...but at least we kept the student loans low.



just got it 55 said:


> Next came the weddings for our two girls.
> 
> The first budget was set for 20K knowing what we do for one we had to do for the other. Nope 27K was spent. Now the next one come in 8/17.


Based on stories I've heard locally, that's pretty reasonable.



just got it 55 said:


> What my wife fails to recognize is this..... I want to retire at 66 yrs and 3 mos which gives me full SS benefits not a day more.Working longer only contributes to the system that I will not live long enough to see a return on.


Have you done that calculation? As I recall, delaying the taking of SS past FRA (Full Retirement Age) increases the per-month SS payment by a larger amount than the penalty for taking it early.

However, you have to run the numbers...if, by delaying one year, you increase the income by $100 per month ($1200 per year), how many years will it take to recover the one year that you got nothing from the system?

I've run calcs for a few different folks, and the crossover age varies a lot depending on how much you've contributed. For me, it's about age 88 (comparing starting to draw at age 62 versus 70), for someone else it turned out to be age 72.

You can cease working before taking SS...that's basically what I've done...I'm actually getting a biz started, but it's slow going. You can live by adding debt, or burning cash. I'm not against the reverse mortgage concept, either...folks across the street are 70, had a huge mortgage and reversed it. The one offspring says he doesn't care about them giving him the house anyway, he cherishes their love, not their money.



just got it 55 said:


> Plus we need to continue improvements on our home to make it maintenance free far as long as we are able to live independently and paid for.


You and I think alike. I'm putting in way more labor on the land than I'd like to, but the end goal isn't any sort of "beauty", but rather, low maintenance...and easy maintenance, so I can turn it over to day laborers.



just got it 55 said:


> Given the family history on both sides of my parents I should live to apx 84.


That's useful info.

So far, I had a grandparent live past 100. Of his seven offspring, six died in their 80s, but all of them were either morbidly obsese, smokers, or suffered serious organ cancer in their early years, so all were compromised. The youngest is still alive at 85 and capable of being active...a bit of added degradation due to 40 years of smoking, but that ceased 15 years ago. 

My dad's in his 90s. His older sister died at 98, and had never seen a doctor since age 20, due to religious beliefs. Had she seen a doc and treated it, the breast cancer might not have done her in.

So, I'm figuring I have to at least be OK financially living to 100.



just got it 55 said:


> I don't want to work to 72 retire and die at 75.Very often men work deep into their life expectancy and die shortly after because their lifestyle has not adapted to the change.


Very wise thinking.

The 90 and 100 year olds I've known worked their entire lives - but doing something they loved. Mostly musicians. That's what I'm trying to establish, a business I enjoy, so that income doesn't feel like work.



just got it 55 said:


> If my wife wants to continue to spend at the same rate she can work till she drops and support me.
> 
> I have told her this in the kindest way I can.


Sounds like you're stating your preferences and being nice about it...and that's about all anybody can expect, isn't it?



just got it 55 said:


> 55


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

College is indeed rising in cost significantly. DD25 thankfully chose one of the cheapest schools in the state. I had saved $23,000, which would have paid for my college 3 times over 20 years earlier. By the time she started in 2009, college at her cheap school was $17,000 a year. By the time the fourth year started, it was $20,000 a year. We ended up with $60,000 in loans to cover the 2 3/4 years left to pay for after the 529 fund ran out, and she and I split the loans. But it was increasing 5% to 10% every year for no good reason.


----------



## btterflykisses (Apr 29, 2016)

just got it 55 said:


> I can't and won,t control my wife's spending by arguing or verbal abuse .She works and works hard and doe's very well.
> 
> However, as the spending continues.......I just increase my 401K contributions.Which is now up to $650.00 per pay period (26 per year)
> 
> ...


My husband and I both work and our money goes into a joint account. However he puts money into his retirement fund from that and I don't. I have only what my employer contributes. Maybe I should do the same and pay into my own out of our combined income.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

btterflykisses said:


> My husband and I both work and our money goes into a joint account. However he puts money into his retirement fund from that and I don't. I have only what my employer contributes. Maybe I should do the same and pay into my own out of our combined income.




Yes you should, especially if there is a tax break associated with any contributions.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

DustyDog said:


> 'been in counseling for over a year. Counselor says she has really deep-seated fears...and believes they are a good thing to have! Thus, change on that matter is unlikely. Therefore, counselor says, I need to concentrate on "taking care of myself". So, my objective is to make some sort of tangible line that says "I will handle everything on this side of the line, you handle everything on that side of the line."


I like this idea, but I don't understand why you need her to stop using her software to achieve it. My take is that how she manages her side is her choice. 

What am I missing?


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Wazza said:


> I like this idea, but I don't understand why you need her to stop using her software to achieve it. My take is that how she manages her side is her choice.
> 
> What am I missing?





Wazza said:


> I like this idea, but I don't understand why you need her to stop using her software to achieve it. My take is that how she manages her side is her choice.
> 
> What am I missing?


Drawbacks to the software:
Currently, she does data entry and expects me to run reports. Data entry is not being done per accounting standards, therefore reports don't come out in a useful way. She then asks me to fix the data entry. Project would be weeks, and it's unlikely she'd follow the new procedures later. Currently, I am declining to get involved, she's not happy with this.

As things go forward, assuming a split:
She spends 10-15 hours per week with the software. Between this and her penchant for shopping at 5-6 stores for groceries, thus consuming more time, our "couple time" presently is about 2-3 hours a week, which she chooses to fill with money discussions. I want more couples time.

The original reason for the question was to come up with different ideas on how to handle money, to present to her (she asked) that are different from "enter every single transaction and study them repeatedly".


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

turnera said:


> College is indeed rising in cost significantly. DD25 thankfully chose one of the cheapest schools in the state. I had saved $23,000, which would have paid for my college 3 times over 20 years earlier. By the time she started in 2009, college at her cheap school was $17,000 a year. By the time the fourth year started, it was $20,000 a year. We ended up with $60,000 in loans to cover the 2 3/4 years left to pay for after the 529 fund ran out, and she and I split the loans. But it was increasing 5% to 10% every year for no good reason.


Are you looking at tuition and books, or the entire cost to support a student at an out-of-town school?

I went to a school in the midwest, and in my six years, the auto industry collapsed, causing state income tax revenue in several states to drop by over 50%. To compensate, all the state schools in the area increased tuition dramatically.

In my case, my first semester's tuition for 16 credits was $320. In my senior year (5 years after freshman) it was $3600. More than 10X increase. Food and rent went up about 20% in the same period of time. My overall cost to attend college was around $15k to $22k per year, for everything...food, rent, phone, some socializing...tuition and books was less than half that.

I paid for a nephew to go to the same college, ending 5 years ago...his annual costs were about 30% more than mine were back in the 1970s.

I googled avg cost for 4-year college (all expenses together, not just tuition and books) and it looks like $20k is "average", although I didn't study this website in detail to see how they derived the figure:

https://trends.collegeboard.org/col...ublished-undergraduate-charges-sector-2015-16

Another major change is the expectation that students work. When I went to school, 90% of the employees at book stores, restaurants, etc, within 1 mile of campus were students. I had the chance to visit my alma mater recently and visited a few old haunts (those that still existed) - the employees looked like they could be the parents of students, but no visible evidence of students working while going to school.

I'm not trying to say any of this is good/bad, I am merely looking at evidence and data.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Nah, most of the students worked. Mine worked at Best Buy, and then at Lowes. Unfortunately, the $2000 or so she earned each year didn't even make a dent in the cost. 

Our lovely governor slashed spending on schools, too - public as well as college, which didn't help. That one, I just don't get. You slash funding to public school, double the cost of college, and then blame all the people out of work since you can barely get a job without a degree, and slash welfare and benefits on top of it.


----------



## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> College is indeed rising in cost significantly. DD25 thankfully chose one of the cheapest schools in the state. I had saved $23,000, which would have paid for my college 3 times over 20 years earlier. By the time she started in 2009, college at her cheap school was $17,000 a year. By the time the fourth year started, it was $20,000 a year. We ended up with $60,000 in loans to cover the 2 3/4 years left to pay for after the 529 fund ran out, and she and I split the loans. But it was increasing 5% to 10% every year for no good reason.


College for children makes it near impossible to save for retirement but what's the alternative, make your kids be 80K in debt before they have their first job? It puts so much pressure on you in your 50s and 60s to try to save for both. All the while, I find myself wanting so desperately to work less and wind down my career instead of having to push for promotions so I somehow can get the money I need. I feel myself only wanting to just rest...not go to work and be put under so much pressure not go home and face the every growing "honey do" list ...just to rest and do nothing.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I dunno about the rest of you, my Ex divorced me and all the budget and financial issues were solved, at least for me. I make as much money as I want, I buy what I want, when I want it. I decide if I want primo or regular. Now I have more money than I ever had at any other point in my life. I actually have a saving account - with real money it. In my married life, I felt that every time I had two dimes to rub together someone (guess who) was bumming a quarter off of me.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

DustyDog said:


> Drawbacks to the software:
> Currently, she does data entry and expects me to run reports. on and study them repeatedly".


Data entry?? Is there software or accounts ANYWHERE that does not allow for downloading transactions?


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Data entry?? Is there software or accounts ANYWHERE that does not allow for downloading transactions?


1) I am unaware of any software that downloads your cash expenses. This is a big deal to her...tracking every quarter that goes into a vending machine! Based on a quick look at her software, it's 75% of the transactions that she spends hours on nightly.

2) Trust: she does not like the idea of letting anything automated touch our bank accounts. Given the proportion of personal info that is stolen this way, I sort of side with her.

However, there's no need to use software on a personal computer - every bank account web site that I know of allows you to assign categories to each expense shown on the web interface.

3) But still, I think drilling down into every category is silly. Do that only if the last month's expenses seem "high", then figure out which things went up.

Don't fix it unless it's broken.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

DustyDog said:


> 1) I am unaware of any software that downloads your cash expenses. This is a big deal to her...tracking every quarter that goes into a vending machine! Based on a quick look at her software, it's 75% of the transactions that she spends hours on nightly.


Cash? What's that?? 



> 2) Trust: she does not like the idea of letting anything automated touch our bank accounts. Given the proportion of personal info that is stolen this way, I sort of side with her.
> 
> However, there's no need to use software on a personal computer - every bank account web site that I know of allows you to assign categories to each expense shown on the web interface.
> 
> ...


My kids are not yet college age. We have a TON of home repair projects. I would love if I could find a way to budget our expenses that would work for DH. Different strokes I guess.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Cash? What's that??
> 
> My kids are not yet college age. We have a TON of home repair projects. I would love if I could find a way to budget our expenses that would work for DH. Different strokes I guess.


Here's how I did it before DW's anxiety turned "money" from something I took note of to The Monster That Ruined Our Emotional Lives:

List the projects in no sequence or priority.
Guesstimate how many weekends each will require
Guesstimate how much each will cost
Finally, re-sequence based on how intense the benefit is, and classify benefit: maintenance reduction, impress the neighbors, improve energy usage, make house more "mine" (this covers things like combining rooms so that 3 small ones become one big one).

Now, pick two projects: The one that will make the biggest benefit...and the one that will consume the least time/money. Do both. 

Then re-do the list after both are done.

I never encountered a problem with cost of house projects by doing it that way.

A key I learned early on in home ownership: If you can't DIY a substantial proportion of the house projects, then home ownership will be far more expensive than renting.

Not saying my way is the only way, but I think if you come up with any way to prioritize, then pick the most and least of something...ignore the rest. Much time loss is because we can't get the whole list out of our heads!!!!

Good luck


----------



## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Budget? Ha, that's a good one. DW thinks that we have a bottomless pit of money - since we both work, she can spend what she likes. This is why I bring home a set amount each payday (2X month) and any excess stays in the business account - if she doesn't see it she can't spend it. My business partner and I track our capital balances on a spreadsheet so the cash is mine - I'm able to invest it through the business. 

My mom wants to give my brother and I money (like $10K each) and I've told both of them not to let my wife know - if she knows, she'll have it spent or offer it to her idiot drama queen sister. I'll invest it through our business investment account where I can track it.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

turnera said:


> Our lovely governor slashed spending on schools, too - public as well as college, which didn't help. That one, I just don't get. You slash funding to public school, double the cost of college, and then blame all the people out of work since you can barely get a job without a degree, and slash welfare and benefits on top of it.



Sounds like you live in same state as me. Or, almost all states have done this.


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

ChargingCharlie said:


> Budget? Ha, that's a good one. DW thinks that we have a bottomless pit of money - since we both work, she can spend what she likes. This is why I bring home a set amount each payday (2X month) and any excess stays in the business account - if she doesn't see it she can't spend it. My business partner and I track our capital balances on a spreadsheet so the cash is mine - I'm able to invest it through the business.
> 
> My mom wants to give my brother and I money (like $10K each) and I've told both of them not to let my wife know - if she knows, she'll have it spent or offer it to her idiot drama queen sister. I'll invest it through our business investment account where I can track it.


A few years ago 2006 I got a $20K bonus from a generous employer 

He sold the company to the biggest in the business

I never saw a dime 

Since then any gravy goes into the 401K

55


----------



## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

just got it 55 said:


> A few years ago 2006 I got a $20K bonus from a generous employer
> 
> He sold the company to the biggest in the business
> 
> ...


Yep - both my partner and I max out our retirement plan, plus I fully fund an IRA and the kids 529 plans. Better to do that then have it spent on more crap that we don't need (or worse, give it to the SIL when she's crying about how she doesn't have any $).


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

ChargingCharlie said:


> Yep - both my partner and I max out our retirement plan, plus I fully fund an IRA and the kids 529 plans. Better to do that then have it spent on more crap that we don't need (or worse, give it to the SIL when she's crying about how she doesn't have any $).


Since 1994, my financial priority was always to contribute the maximum legal amount to 401k and IRA accounts. Even in some years when it meant shutting off the furnace and sleeping under 3 blankets (which turns out to be too many in a house that's 40 degrees!), I/we did it. I worry when someone "puts any excess" toward retirement...by calling it "excess", you have just declared every penny you current spend "necessity". I've never seen a person who couldn't cut back. Unless you're at US minimum wage or not much higher, most folks really can fully fund 401k/IRAs....one per working adult.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

The more you write OP the more it sounds like you both have an unbalanced issue with money. You are both so wrapped up in money that it seems you are wasting the life you currently have in favour of a retirement that will possibly very lonely anyway.

We don't budget here, we simply live withing our means and have a balanced view of enjoying the here and now while the retirement funds are dealt with quietly in the background, no stress.

There is a saying "every 60 seconds of unhappiness is one less minute of happiness."


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ChargingCharlie said:


> Yep - both my partner and I max out our retirement plan, plus I fully fund an IRA and the kids 529 plans. Better to do that then have it spent on more crap that we don't need (or worse, give it to the SIL when she's crying about how she doesn't have any $).


I agree: 90%.

I have since found out that the 529 cannot be used for anything but tuition and books. We didn't use the 529 in undergrad school, took out loans, and then realized that we weren't allowed to spend it on the above. Luckily, DD25 decided to go to get a Masters, which we could spend it on, or we would have lost it.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

uhtred said:


> We combine our incomes in one account. Bills are paid out of that. If we are saving money for retirement beyond our 401Ks, then that money is taken out of this account and put into a separate account every month.
> 
> We set a fun-money budget and track on a spreadsheet. We can each spend our budget on basically anything we want. The rest is spent on normal living expenses, and shared entertainment.


Sayeth Uhtred, son of Uhtred !


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, we combine plunder, bury part of it in a corner of the hall, provide gold to the men, and split the rest on mead. 

Of course there are still arguments - Is a finely wrought helmet in the shape of a wolf's head entertainment, or a business expense?






SunCMars said:


> Sayeth Uhtred, son of Uhtred !


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Yes, we combine plunder, bury part of it in a corner of the hall, provide gold to the men, and split the rest on mead.
> 
> Of course there are still arguments - Is a finely wrought helmet in the shape of a wolf's head entertainment, or a business expense?


Gese !!

You are a warrior businessman. And you consensually plund-her now! Not the Saxons. Lucky women, she be!

Like a great stalking cat, you bury your consumed, digested plunder in the soil. Not under the mattress or in/on the River Bank's vault.

Your gold goes to your progeny boys. A little for the she-legged.

The rest goes to "Old Chimneys Good King Henry Special Reserve"...but not for long. Eventually it ends up in the Thames.

Since your "now" ride is a motorcycle...that you sit asunder traveling to work...and not your white Courser..... the wolf helmet goes to transportation allocation and protects against blunt force injury from roady cobblestones....not broadswords.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> You are both so wrapped up in money that it seems you are wasting the life you currently have...


I politely disagree.

In my 20s, I just spent - whatever seemed normal, I did. "Normal", of course, doing what friends did, going out often, etc...saving nothing.

In my mid-30s, I split from my ex, and gave her everything. I believe in getting things done and over with.

But now I applied wisdom: In one's 30s, if one has zero net worth, retirement will be feasible only if one applies a little thinking.

It didn't take long. A quick study showed that as long as I put the max into 401k and IRA accounts, retirement would just happen and be wonderful.

One litmus test: Is your current spending at or below the annual amount you will be able to draw when you hit retirement? I discovered that for me, putting max into 401K and IRA would do just that.

Cutting spending was trivial. A tip from a magazine said to simply put 5% more into savings every month than you used to. After a year, bump it up to 10%. Then 15%. If you're not actually budgeting, you won't notice the 5 or 10% levels, and probably not the 15%.

I didn't cut myself off from anything.

Except in 1999-2001, when our household income plummeted 70% due to the high-tech crash in our area...and we chose to not move so that wife could continue working on her degree. Those are the 3 years when we really did shut things off - it was like a game, how low can we go and still be comfortable and happy.

I learned that what my generation used to say is true - money does not buy happiness, and the best things in life really are free.

Spending more does not beget happiness...so, the fact that a person saves doesn't, in any way, say that they are "wasting the life they could have had..." What life comes from spending?

Because my wife is so obsessed, I now discuss money WAY more often than would be my preference. She brings it up. Her views seem distorted, and I come on here to see how other people do things, to see whether she's closer to the norm, or I am. My preference would be to dump the software and go back to exactly how I used to do things, which is "don't worry about it".



MrsHolland said:


> We don't budget here, we simply live withing our means and have a balanced view of enjoying the here and now while the retirement funds are dealt with quietly in the background, no stress.


I gather that "enjoying the here and now" means spending money? I just don't think that way.

Once you have housing and transportation taken care of, life is relatively cheap. We have a paid-off house and never use loans to buy cars or anything else, so the burn rate stays low even if we "go out on the town" now and then.



MrsHolland said:


> There is a saying "every 60 seconds of unhappiness is one less minute of happiness."


Agreed. And every new item you purchase is more maintenance. Minimalist living's purpose isn't to save money - it's to increase the Joy / Stuff ratio.


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

To control spending, we developed an envelope system. We bought plastic envelopes at the office store, since paper ones wear out.(Dave Ramsey) Place a max amount that is allowed to be spent in each category, or saved in each category. (As time goes on, you will find you need to adjust the amounts that go into the different envelopes. However with what your wife has already been doing, she may have a pretty good idea of what you spend in the different categories.)

The main time consuming part is getting the cash from the bank, and filling the envelope each month. That takes only about 2 hours, and then you are finished for the month. No more hours on the computer as your wife is doing.

When you buy something, you put the receipt in the envelope the cash came out of. No need to enter anything on the computer, because at the end of the month, all the receipts in the envelope should not exceed the cash that was put in that envelope. At the beginning of the next month, when you are restocking the envelopes with cash, you take out the receipts and put them in another envelope labeled for that category, and you will fill those envelope all year. That way if you need a receipt, you know which envelope it is in.

At the beginning of each month, go to the bank and withdraw the necessary cash (in the denominations necessary) to fill the envelopes, move cash to the savings, etc.

With regard to the spending part, spend the $ directly out of the appropriate envelope. When the money is gone, there is no more spending done for that category that month!

If you forget the envelope and have to use a debit or charge card, write on the top of the receipt the name of the envelope the expenditure should have come out of. As soon as you get home, take that money out of the appropriate envelope, scribble out the note you made on the receipt, and put the receipt in the envelope. Put the cash you just took out into a separate envelope called, "Back to the Bank." You will deposit the money back into your account each month, so you don't overspend.

The "Back to the Bank" envelope is a huge boost to feeling good. It's awesome to deposit hundreds of dollars back into your bank account each month that otherwise would have been piddled away!!

Our main problem was overspending on food (eating out, imported cheeses, other luxury items, overstocking: things expired/went bad before we ate them, etc.) For our food now, we allow a certain amount per person per day. We then split the total into 4 envelopes, dated 1-7, 8-15, 16-23, and 24-end of month. The reason for the strange dating is that there are more than 28 days in a month. The way they are dated allows for enough money for the last week. Splitting the food $ into 4 envelopes keeps us from spending the whole month's budget in the first two weeks (which would be easy to do, the way we eat and used to stock up when items were on sale.)

In the past we would not have $ for big things that would come up and would go into the red to pay for them. Now we pre-save for those types of things.

Have a monthly "eating out" envelope that is separate from you weekly grocery envelopes. When it is empty, you don't go out again, until the next month's budget.

You each need your own "mad money" to spend (or save) the way you wish, without having to ask. Coffees, lunches with the guys, or girls, golf membership (if only one is into golf) makeup, clothes, motorcycles, ladies' spas, makeup, trips with the girls/guys, etc. are spent out of each person's personal mad money. You each have the same amount.

This has worked so well for us, that we have also managed to pay down $20K of debt in 1 1/2 years! Once the debt is paid, we will sock away more money for retirement, for a new car, and increase our food budget a bit.

We will forever live on a budget from now on. It is empowering! It feels like we have more money now, instead of less.

It helps to have something to start with. If you wish, I can PM you our spreadsheet. Then you can tailor it to your lifestyle/needs.


----------



## giddiot (Jun 28, 2015)

You want to know what all this saving money gets you? Some die at retirement, or get sick and end up in nursing care, or just age and one of you needing medical or nursing care. They take your money at a clip of 8k a month per person. You eat up all your savings in a few years then the state takes the rest of your assets, moves you to a sh1tty nursing home and your die out of boredom. Was it worth it? Live like Raymond Burr, spend every dollar you have, die with no money in your pocket. Enjoy your money while you are healthy enough too. Besides the govt wants us to work to 70 now, and I'm betting our country will go bankrupt before I ever get to retire or I will die from working so many years.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

giddiot said:


> You want to know what all this saving money gets you? Some die at retirement, or get sick and end up in nursing care, or just age and one of you needing medical or nursing care. They take your money at a clip of 8k a month per person. You eat up all your savings in a few years then the state takes the rest of your assets, moves you to a sh1tty nursing home and your die out of boredom. Was it worth it? Live like Raymond Burr, spend every dollar you have, die with no money in your pocket. Enjoy your money while you are healthy enough too. Besides the govt wants us to work to 70 now, and I'm betting our country will go bankrupt before I ever get to retire or I will die from working so many years.


First of all "saving money" does not add time to your busy schedule. "Not spending" saves a lot of time. I haven't seen the inside of a mall in over ten years and don't miss them one bit. Once you stop viewing "shopping" as entertainment, the world gets happier.

Every time one of my pals has to fix the navigation system on a car, I'm glad my cars don't have them. Ditto the "eco" folks across the way who spent $20k on a central heat pump then $4200 in four years to repair it (3 year warranty). I rebuilt our entire electric furnace in two hours with $120 in parts...good for another 50 years.

I get way more entertainment out of riding 100 miles in a day on a bicycle, through the trails in the foothills, than I get out of the entire ownership of a $350 television set.

I'm not cheap, nor frugal. I just measure, very carefully, what complexities I put into my life. If they increase the amount of time I spend in nature or in community, then I consider them favorably. But if it takes me away from either, then I view very cautiously. I spend on certain tools - a riding mower slashes the time required to maintain my modest acreage, so I have one.

What did I gain from getting out of debt before turning 45? My employer knew that I did not need a job, therefore they didn't give me crap assignments. When I told them that my personal financial goals required me to consider looking elsewhere, they made sure I was rewarded for the successes I had given them in the past year. When I told them that it was important to me to have an impact on management decisions, they put me on the Mergers and Acquisitions team, and I influenced what other companies they bought. Not bad for a lowly undergrad.

And, when the company got bought and the acquiring company shut down 25% of our divisions, I had no problem walking away. The severance check was for only a few months, and I was only in my mid-50s. I looked at how much moolah we had, and realized that we could do just fine without any more income to age 70, so we could hold off SS payments until they were maximum. Mind you, that might not have been my choice...but my wife prefers it, and the spousal benefit, upon my death, will be contingent on how much I was receiving before death. To me, it doesn't matter, but to her it does, so I made this decision for her benefit.

No, the government does not want us working to age 70. The US government is in a constant struggle to defend the economy and if they can get people to retire sooner, it means more jobs - a lot more, since younger employees usually get paid less. That's why it's possible to draw SS at age 62 instead of 65 and that's why, if you get laid off at age 55, you can draw from your company 401k without penalty.

The variation in payout from SS is dependent upon your age, and they've worked out the formulas so that it doesn't matter to them, if you live to be the average age. For every $1 that you'd get by starting SS at age 62, you'd get $1.75 if you begin at age 70. You're also likely to not live as long if you begin at at 70 and to the gov't, it works out the same. So, they don't care. (figures valid for those born 1955 or later)

It takes little effort to learn to enjoy happiness, not materialism, and once you do, it takes very little to live. My wife and I live what we think is a modestly luxurious life - we go out to eat a couple times a month at local family-run places, we have a potluck at least once a week, we escape to the beach a couple weekends a year, we don't delay vehicle maintenance and so on. How much a year does this lifestyle cost us? Approximately two minimum wage jobs. Money isn't enjoyable to us...people are...exploring nature is....learning new things is...none of that is expensive.

You brought up two things that are very important to consider. First, how long will you live and how will your health be. Nobody can predict, but if you know your family history, then you can come surprisingly close. If you've taken care of yourself, you'll live 5-10 years longer than your relatives one generation older, and have the same number of, or fewer diseases. If, however, you've been less active and eaten badly, you may do just the same as them, your poorer lifestyle being compensated by more readily available medical help. Based on a study done by the life insurance actuarial study group (I forget their name), only one in 2500 people will live significantly less or more than this basic estimate.

To give two extreme examples:
My pal, call him Bill. His parents both died before 70. Being farmers, they were fairly physically active. Both smoked, although not heavily, both drank, again not heavily. Bill, although he enjoys the outdoors, had a desk job his whole life, and has been somewhat overweight - about 15 to 20%, on the verge of obese, but not there. Heavy smoker until 30 or so, then he decided to quit. Has a glass of wine once a week at the most. So...less physical activity (bad), overweight (bad), but didn't smoke all life long (good) and rarely drank (good). The things that went bad for his dad are going bad for him at the same ages. So, in his case, he's likely to make it to 70 but not much more. For him, it was a wise choice to take the early-out he was offered at age 58...they gave him two years pay, he only had to cover two more years, then he took SS at age 62.

This other guy, we'll call Carl. His grandparents smoked like chimneys and drank like fish. They never made it past 8th grade and worked very hard labor-intense jobs like coal-mining and timber, and they had classic diseases that come from those jobs. All four of them made it past 90, and one past 100. His parents had sit-down jobs, neither smoked nor drank, and were slightly active during the summers when they tended a small garden. Although they really didn't get much exercise, they did maintain their weight until recently. His dad is now 98, his mom 93, both with enough mental faculty to continue living in the home they've had for 35 years. While they have ceased doing maintenance like painting, they still mow the lawn and do typical dusting and cleaning and making their own meals. Carl's been much more physically active, having chosen to enjoy the heck out of hiking mountains, has a large social group (social group activity is a bigger indicator of longevity than diet, weight or smoking!), studies how to eat well and enjoys his own cooking, maintains his weight, has a very happy marriage. If someone is likely to live longer than his parents, it's Carl - and his dad is 98! So, Carl should probably be ready to break 100.

So, yes, understand you may die tomorrow - but pay attention to the odds...because if you *don't* die tomorrow...and you think you can't be happy without spending...you'll have a lot of unhappy years.

The second issue is cost of nursing homes. Statistically, the more you pay per month, the less time you spend in it. A full-care memory home (most expensive there is) is under $5,000/month in 45 states....if you're in a costly state and haven't planned to be old in a costly state, most people move. Average stay in a true "memory care" facility is only 6 months. There are exceptions, but again, the stats were something like less than one in 10,000 make it past a year. And if you do? You don't remember any of it! If I can't remember yesterday, I probably don't care if I slept the night in a box under a bridge.

My wife's folks are in a senior facility now. They're bitter angry people who've never taken care of themselves. Both had debilitating strokes in their late 70s and can't take care of themselves. They share a two-bedroom apartment in a facility where a nurse checks on on them twice a day. If they can't get in their scooters to make it to the cafe for meals, they'll be required to bump up to the next higher level of care, which costs more. Presently, they're paying $3200/month for the two of them. Sounds like a lot? Not so much, really - bear in mind, because they are in this care facility, they are not paying mortgage/rent (they hadn't been for decades anyway). Cable TV is provided, meals are provided, laundry is taken care of without them even buying detergent. They no longer have vehicle expenses.

We get freaked out at the cost of senior care because we think it is "in addition" to our present expenses - but when we finally need to go into that form of living, nearly all our current expenses are fully replaced by the monthly fee. Before the later strokes debilitated them to this level, they were paying $2600 or so...the $600 change is for the twice daily nurse visit and presence of 24 hour a day on-call medical staff.

So...things are as they are, and 99.9% of people do fine, and it's up to each of us to decide if we want to do the simple things that 99.9% of the people do, or freak out because we fear we'll be in the 0.1%. My wife chooses the 0.1%, but I don't....because...just because.

As to the gov't going bankrupt - it technically got there ten years ago. What I've noticed during every economic downturn is that the companies that remain work out ways to work on lower margin and lower cost stuff becomes available - companies don't want to die, so if everybody has less money, they figure out a way to make their products and services more affordable. Our system adapts...I've seen it with my own eyes over and over.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

DustyDog said:


> ............................................
> 
> Spending more does not beget happiness...so, the fact that a person saves doesn't, in any way, say that they are "wasting the life they could have had..." What life comes from spending?
> 
> ...


If you have taken care of the necessities and have little debt then spending on the here and now very much can add a huge amount to lifes experiences and fun. We don't spend up big on *stuff * (except cars but I love nice cars) but living and enjoying a good lifestyle is much more fun than counting all your money and fretting over it.
No mortgage here, good investment portfolios, no credit or major loans so we enjoy the here and now as much as possible as we can and we both love living life. 

Just back from a week in the Sth Pacific on a private Island, living it up. Yeah we could have put a few more dollars into the retirement accts but why anyone would put off living life right now in favour of having more money later in life when you won't be able to enjoy it so much seems counter intuitive.'

Do you and your wife ever have fun? Do you take holidays, explore the world, chill out on a secluded beach? Or do you spend your time and energy counting your money and planning to the nth degree for your latter years?


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> If you have taken care of the necessities and have little debt then spending on the here and now very much can add a huge amount to lifes experiences and fun. We don't spend up big on *stuff * (except cars but I love nice cars) but living and enjoying a good lifestyle is much more fun than counting all your money and fretting over it.
> No mortgage here, good investment portfolios, no credit or major loans so we enjoy the here and now as much as possible as we can and we both love living life.
> 
> Just back from a week in the Sth Pacific on a private Island, living it up. Yeah we could have put a few more dollars into the retirement accts but why anyone would put off living life right now in favour of having more money later in life when you won't be able to enjoy it so much seems counter intuitive.'
> ...


Wife - no. Her obsession over money...and everything else...really precludes her from ever having fun. 

Me? Ooodles. First off, I don't count money - she does. That long posting I put up there? The time it took to write is pretty much the equivalent of how much analysis I put into money about 30 years ago and then was done. It's something you think about, figure your priorities, and just do it. 

I must say, however, that in my business education, there were the require accounting classes...and then marketing and economic psychology. I have a real passion for figuring out people and group behavior and enjoyed those parts of my career. As long as a "money" discussion is actually about human behavior, I can get into it. But not counting account balances.

Anyway, my fun: 
I choose to live in the country so that every single day I can spend time in forests or running along the country roads...I can, if I'm up to it, run or bike 100 miles without seeing a single stoplight. In my typical one-hour daily run, I will see one car. I love the wind in my hair, hearing the birds in the trees, and one absolutely delightful day, I experienced bright sun, cold rain, hail and snow, all in one 3 hour run. Lovely.

I don't think of "fun" as something you "stop normal life" to do. I manage to include it in every day.

I play music, not very well, but I've managed to become competent on a few instruments that are in high demand...which means "anything except guitar". I can be as active as I want in small local bands playing farmer's markets - it's fun, not thrilling, but IMO, beats a day laying on a beach.

I enjoy experiences, as you do. I have a passion for jazz. It's possible to spend a lot of money traveling the world to music festivals, but I have never enjoyed "sitting"...that is, I suck at spectating. For instance, I run - but cannot keep myself in front of a TV watching a running race. Ditto any other sports - I do them, I don't watch. So, concerts get old. But...being part of the production is a thrill, and you don't just experience the music, but you meet the musicians, famous and otherwise. Also, by being a part of putting the show on, you actually experience the locale you're visiting - you don't just look at it, you interact with locals on a business and personal level. My work is voluntary, but as a part of the production, travel is partly compensated and you usually get to live, for some time, with a family who lives there - another part of the immersion experience. It's hard to do this without picking up musical tips...I've gotten advice on my own playing by some of the best players in the world. That's hardly "work", it's quite thrilling, actually.

And there's this - me on a beach? Rare. Not just that when I feel a need for a rest/mindfulness meditation, I just do it wherever I am. I do not stress, therefore I don't need "decompression" weekends. And...being a pale skinned Northern European, beaches are not medically sound for me, as the scars on my neck, face and arms can attest. Don't need any more skin cancer. My wife, the stress bunny, needs those breaks, and we have our preferred spot on the beach 90 minutes from home. She'll rest while I go for a jog up and down the coast. Fortunately for us, our coastline tends to be overcast and not too hot...she's no more of a heat-seeker than I am.

Haven't been to the South Pacific, unless you count Hawaii. I lived on the Big Island for a few months back in the 1980s, learned the three or four sub-cultures there, thrilled to see the volcano go through a phase change. There are a number of expeditions that have let me know they'd appreciate me joining them.

For the last couple of years, I've visited Caribbean Islands. I'm part of a group that goes and does expeditions for various purposes, writes them up. The 'work' part, if you can call hiking along volcanic beaches and through rain forests 'work' might be 20 hours a week if we wish. Lots of time is spent in the community, and we are housed in a "hotel" of sorts - more of a large private home that rents itself out B&B style...I'm thinking of a particular place on St. Lucia. I've done similar on Martinique and later this year, I'm 90% certain I'll make it to St. George, Grenada.

I don't "volunteer" to be cheap. I do it because it enhances the experience and REALLY gets me to places - not just, tourist-like, standing outside and staring through the windows.


----------

