# Alpha Males and The Tooth-fairy



## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Both are fictional IMO. 

(OK...maybe the tooth-fairy is real.)


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Lmao
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I honestly cannot understand this idea that alpha men are selfish, uncaring, narcissitic pricks. Where the hell did this notion come from? I dont understand how people can say an alpha is a leader and yet at the same time he doesnt have a caring bone in his body? 

This makes no damn sense to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Gaia said:


> Lmao
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

Yeah, he can alpha his way out my damn door. I don't want some "yes" man, but I certainly don't want some piece of crap who cares about nothing. Why not just get a dildo? I mean all you have to do is stick it in the drawer and not look at it again until the next time.


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## Jane_Doe (Aug 9, 2012)

A 'leader' in a capitalist society is usually a ruthless, profit-mongering [email protected] (and usually male), so perhaps that's the only way some men know how to 'lead'. As a society maybe we've trained our leaders that way, instead of training them to care for the group, look out for the people they lead, and do what is in the group's best interest, not the leader's best interest.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

I think a lot of the hate for the whole "alpha-beta" topic comes from the thought that alpha is good, beta is bad and a person is only alpha or beta. World isn't black and white like that.

No, alpha isn't inherently good. It is about confidence and leading. It breeds attraction.
No, beta isn't inherently bad. It is about humbleness and hardwork. It breeds bonding.

Attraction without enough bonding makes short and only sexual relationships. Bonding without enough attraction puts you in a friendzone that you cannot escape if you try for a thousand years if you don't grow some balls.

And nobody is truly alpha or truly beta. It is a sliding scale. People aren't one-diensional, they have lots of different qualities.

These are my views, of course. There are a lot of different authors and views out there and that probably makes it a bit hard to get familiar with.



Jane_Doe said:


> A 'leader' in a capitalist society is usually a ruthless, profit-mongering [email protected] (and usually male)


Come on now, this is exactly the misandrist crap i always talk about. The world saw a woman named Margaret Thatcher. There are a lot of CEOs and managers who are woman, that are ruthless and conniving. Power corrupts people, it has nothing to do with being male or female.

And btw, when women understand their own nature and stop falling for "bad boys" and players, the whole alpha-beta business will stop I assure you.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> Yeah, he can alpha his way out my damn door. I don't want some "yes" man, but I certainly don't want some piece of crap who cares about nothing. Why not just get a dildo? I mean all you have to do is stick it in the drawer and not look at it again until the next time.


And if you go to Costco you can get a really good deal on batteries.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Jane_Doe said:


> A 'leader' in a capitalist society is usually a ruthless, profit-mongering [email protected] (and usually male), so perhaps that's the only way some men know how to 'lead'. As a society maybe we've trained our leaders that way, instead of training them to care for the group, look out for the people they lead, and do what is in the group's best interest, not the leader's best interest.


Actually, I've been in the corporate world for a while. The most ruthless and aggressive people are middle management. The one at the top usually has a more even tempered demeanor and uses cooperative means to get the job done.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

If this is misandryst....


Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Jane_Doe said:
> 
> 
> > A 'leader' in a capitalist society is usually a ruthless, profit-mongering [email protected] (and usually male),
> ...


How is this not misogynist?



Shadow_Nirvana said:


> And btw, when women understand their own nature and stop falling for "bad boys" and players, the whole alpha-beta business will stop I assure you.



I'm sorry but I think the alpha/beta model is crap and just as bad as the feminazi stuff that I hear from bitter women. People need to be responsible for themselves. I don't like either because both just point the finger and cry victim. "We're not allowed to settle things like men and hit each other when we get mad! (sniff)" "Men are evil sacks of scum! (hiss)." 

Here's a hint for relationships. Don't be a doormat and don't be a douche.

That is all.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I think a lot of the hate for the whole "alpha-beta" topic comes from the thought that alpha is good, beta is bad and a person is only alpha or beta. World isn't black and white like that.
> 
> No, alpha isn't inherently good. It is about confidence and leading. It breeds attraction.
> No, beta isn't inherently bad. It is about humbleness and hardwork. It breeds bonding.
> ...


Bad boys are only interesting for so long. Most women grow out of this phase and find someone they can relax with after working all week. 

Did you ever notice how elderly people all sort of look alike? Why would someone want to be with an elderly "bad boy?" 

LOLOLOLOL

(I crack myself up.)


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Gaia said:


> I honestly cannot understand this idea that alpha men are selfish, uncaring, narcissitic pricks. Where the hell did this notion come from? I dont understand how people can say an alpha is a leader and yet at the same time he doesnt have a caring bone in his body?
> 
> This makes no damn sense to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I think its a conflation of two different phenomen

I was looking out the window yesterday and saw a teenage boy go by with three teenage girls in tow. They all seemed to be very enamored with him. 

Five years ago, this little guy was amusing himself by killing neighborhood cats with an air rifle and throwing rocks at horses. Puberty hit and slapped an ingratiating smile on his face and now he's irresistible. 

I don't know a name for the phenomenon, but it's real. Most men notice in their early teens that the 'Biff Tannens' of the world are never lonely. They're not attractive to all women and I don't mean to imply that at all. I guess in extreme forms, this would be actual hybristophilia.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Miss Taken said:


> If this is misandryst....
> 
> 
> How is this not misogynist?
> ...


The New Rules:

"Don't be a doormat and don't be a douche."


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> I think its a conflation of two different phenomen
> 
> I was looking out the window yesterday and saw a teenage boy go by with three teenage girls in tow. They all seemed to be very enamored with him.
> 
> ...


I guess some women go for psychopaths.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Enchanted said:


> I guess some women go for psychopaths.


Like Ted Bundy, a serial killer who murdered scores of women:

"Handsome, arrogant, and articulate, he drew scores of rapt groupies to the jammed courtroom each day. Some were cookie-cutter blondes desperate to catch Ted's eye.... " -_The Only Living Witness: The True Story Of Ted Bundy_​
This particular mental disorder is almost entirely an affliction of women. I don't think anybody really knows why.


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> Like Ted Bundy, a serial killer who murdered scores of women:
> 
> "Handsome, arrogant, and articulate, he drew scores of rapt groupies to the jammed courtroom each day. Some were cookie-cutter blondes desperate to catch Ted's eye.... " -_The Only Living Witness: The True Story Of Ted Bundy_​
> This particular mental disorder is almost entirely an affliction of women. I don't think anybody really knows why.


Probably some very worthless feeling women who think they deserve the worst of the worst. I'd go as far to say that most, if not all of those women are mentally ill.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> Probably some very worthless feeling women who think they deserve the worst of the worst. I'd go as far to say that most, if not all of those women are mentally ill.


Maybe the Ted Bundy example is a bit too over the top. But when a man thinks a woman is hot, he will be more lenient to overlooking some major flaws. And just like that, when a woman thinks a man is attractive, she will be ,again, be more lenient to overlook major flaws.

In long term relationships:
A balanced person>douche>doormat>0

In short term relationships(dating/FWB/ONS)
A balanced person=douche>doormat=0

Sad but true. And to all of you are saying this alpha-beta stuff won't work on strong-willed women. How many people(men and women) do you know who are really strong-willed and has dealt with their issues? I have to tell you, not much. If there weren't so many broken down people, we wouldn't be having "No more Mr Nice guy" books, affairs etc.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Enchanted said:


> The New Rules:
> 
> "Don't be a doormat and don't be a douche."


So easy to say, so hard to do. Seriously, working on one's self, is probably the hardest thing that can be done. That's why it is impressive to see a well-balanced confident person.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> Probably some very worthless feeling women who think they deserve the worst of the worst. I'd go as far to say that most, if not all of those women are mentally ill.


It's definitely a mental illness.

I wonder if its cause is a lack of self esteem or a disconnection from reality? Consider vampire stories for example. It wasn't men who made Anne Rice and Stephanie Meyer best selling authors, it was women. 

The male vampire protagonist is usually extraordinarily handsome and/or wealthy, but he's also a creature that violently kills most of the women he comes into contact with. Even as a fantasy, what's the attraction in that? Is it the desire to be the special one that he falls in love with and doesn't kill? I can't wrap my mind around it. 

At any rate, I think this does tie back into the perception that the so-called Alpha has a streak of bastard in him.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I think a lot of the hate for the whole "alpha-beta" topic comes from the thought that *alpha is good*, *beta is bad* and a person is only alpha or beta. World isn't black and white like that.


 Exactly how I feel.... and very strongly at that. 



> No, alpha isn't inherently good. It is about confidence and leading. It breeds attraction.
> No, beta isn't inherently bad. It is about humbleness and hardwork. It breeds bonding.


The *Alpha Traits* are those associated with classic “manly man” strengths. Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence. Oh and good genes. These are the things that attract women and turn them on sexually. The Alpha Traits are linked to the dopamine response in women.

*Alpha *= attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement.

The *Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.

*Beta *= comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"

So Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex. You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage to maximize her desire to have sex with you.














> Attraction without enough bonding makes short and only sexual relationships.


 This is the main reason I never wanted anything to do with those tipped ALPHA - they are the leaders in unemotional detached screwing around, since they could pretty much LAY anyone they wanted... this pretty much disgusted me - the allure was shot to hell when a cute guy had that sort of history. 



> Bonding without enough attraction puts you in a friendzone that you cannot escape if you try for a thousand years if you don't grow some balls.


 I think Plenty of tipped Beta men are physically attractive....being a little shy & introverted never deterred me... I didn't need all that high falutin confidence that attracts other women... 

The cute shy guy - in his own way.. was a mystery to unravel to see what was underneath all that. I prefer those types, I've always viewed them more Romantic, more Genuine...I love the Best friend/ Lover ideal. 



> And nobody is truly alpha or truly beta. It is a sliding scale. People aren't one-diensional, they have lots of different qualities.


 Absolutely.... this is why I use the term "*tipped*" in front of each term. Are any of us perfectly balanced? ... even us women are tipped more Alpha or Beta....even at our BEST, we are still a little off... Some temperaments are naturally more ALPHA (like Cholerics...our assertive Leaders) and Phlegmatics are more Beta (they are the humble peace makers) ....striving for as much balance as they can in each is key.... 












> And btw, when women understand their own nature and stop falling for "bad boys" and players, the whole alpha-beta business will stop I assure you.


 We all know this will never happen. But I so agree with you !!


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

> The Alpha Traits are those associated with classic “manly man” strengths. Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence. Oh and good genes. These are the things that attract women and turn them on sexually. The Alpha Traits are linked to the dopamine response in women.
> 
> Alpha = attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement.
> 
> ...


This says it all SA. 

This is my partner, he is a good mix of all the right parts. 

This is what I find amusing when all the Alpha threads come out, this is what men that think that being all Alpha is the most important thing, don't get.

My SO is this mix, he is my big strong man, he protects me and I feel safe with him. He is also kind, caring, romantic and such a good person.
He is Alpha in his career, yay that is where he really needs to be a leader. He is a good mix of Alpha/Beta at home, it comes naturally to him because he is a well balanced man. 

The key is that this is who he is at his core, he doesn't not need to pretend to be what he isn't. But if there is a problem he works it out and works towards fixing it. 

He would never want me to be his little woman, he is confidant in himself and he needs an equal by his side. This does not make him weak as some of the Alpha devotees seem to think. 

The desire I have to be sexual with him is incredible. He exudes power and love at the same time.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Holland said:


> My SO is this mix, he is my big strong man, he protects me and I feel safe with him. He is also kind, caring, romantic and such a good person.
> He is Alpha in his career, yay that is where he really needs to be a leader. He is a good mix of Alpha/Beta at home, it comes naturally to him because he is a well balanced man.


 I could say I am a little jealous, but I won't  

Mine is still NOT the perfect mix in these things.... he has a doubly whammy of Introvertedness (being a Phleg- Melancholy)... one couldn't pay him enough to be a BOSS...he's more the behind the scenes - "peace maker" type....honorable , faithful & dependable ....keeping things on an even keel while the louder mouths go at it (at work)... He's not a beefy higher test guy- so I can't boast about his physical strength (though he'd protect his family with his very life)...... but it's good enough - we have LOTS of sex anyway !!

But ya know.. it's still all good...and heres's why... I am more the "Take charge" type, verbally assertive, welcome a challenge, the Go-getter......I am one of those Cholerics (even though I am a SAHM)... so *WE* balance each other out. Together we make a fine team. 

In our case, he may need to UP the ALPHA some, and I may need to UP the Beta some ~ to be honest. He is better with the kids than I am - I could be a little more nurturing to our elementary aged ones - more patience. He gets turned on by Aggressive women .....and I love those shy guys ... what we want out of life...our hopes, dreams & daily enjoyments ....we fit like a glove. 



> He would never want me to be his little woman, he is confidant in himself and he needs an equal by his side. This does not make him weak as some of the Alpha devotees seem to think.


 My husband is not threatened by me either...he handles me well....A lot of Respect there, we admire what we each bring..... we feel "equals"-which I KNOW I would need in a marriage ... or I would cause some trouble ... he has a very quiet confidence...but it's there. 



> The desire I have to be sexual with him is incredible. He exudes power and love at the same time.


 As it should be :smthumbup: So wonderful you found each other. 

Are you the perfect balance too Holland? Everyone wants to say they are.. I think the majority, if we are honest, could stand to raise the Bar a little one way or the other...still working it out. 

I know one reason I get bent out of shape over this subject is because .... I don't feel we have to BE perfectly balanced to be "good enough"- to make wonderful husbands & wives...... because from our example alone..... the compatibility of what the other brings ....completes us....it just WORKS...and works well. 

I hope that makes sense.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

Alpha males don't believe in the tooth fairy . If on the off chance she would appear she would be the beta fairy within a day. Just sayin...


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Lmao
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

SA no why be jealous anyway? You have what appears to be such a beautiful relationship.



> Are you the perfect balance too Holland? Everyone wants to say they are.. I think the majority, if we are honest, could stand to raise the Bar a little one way or the other...still working it out.


I am the Alpha/Beta woman as listed in your post so yes I think SO and I are a great match. The bar always need to be raised a little and I am continually learning about life, how to be the best person I can for myself, my kids and my partner. There are moments where I fail miserably at this but believe that the more powerful thing is how you fix a mistake, not the mistake itself.

My background is business management and I have always worked in male dominated industries. I need a strong man to stand next too. This is not good or bad, it just is.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

joe kidd said:


> Alpha males don't believe in the tooth fairy . If on the off chance she would appear she would be the beta fairy within a day. Just sayin...


LOL!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Holland said:


> There are moments where I fail miserably at this but believe that the more powerful thing is how you fix a mistake, not the mistake itself.


 I like this. :smthumbup: Yes, we do fail...but we work it out and *accept* each other for what we are/ where we are.

When the GOOD far outweighs the BAD ...it then just becomes nit picking. If no women ever cared to get to know the bashful nicer men.... well that would just be a damn shame. IF they are met with the right woman for them...it can be a beautiful thing. 

I also resent all the talk that -only the hottest superior women can snag an Alpha. Talk like that --it's everywhere on the internet... making fun of Betas.... Makes me want to









Here is what I think....The







guys DO get the







girls...no doubt... or the RICH men since so many women are magnets to this...but by no means does that = better character people....I guess it depends on what one* values* in life ....and this can be different for all of us.

I don't value high success or good looks -to the point I would turn a blind eye to behaviors that were unbecoming -that could hurt down the line...but how many do this...women and men. 

Some of the lessor "wanteds" (shall we insert "BETA" here)... many times they have the most fulfilling - no cheating/ infidelity marriages. 

I must say though.... I have the utmost respect for those who are tipped ALPHA who don't fall into the typical stereotype of screwing around & abusing his "Power & Leadership" ...but I do feel these types are harder to come across in life.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I must say though.... I have the utmost respect for those who are tipped ALPHA who don't fall into the typical stereotype of screwing around & abusing his "Power & Leadership" ...but I do feel these types are harder to come across in life.


There seem to be an abundance of Alpha's giving Alpha's a bad name these days. Just think of a sports figure, nearly any of them. Lance, Tiger, just about anyone you can think of. 

Roles models? Sadly, kids will look up to them because the media loves them. Kids are sponges and can easily become what they see.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Gaia said:


> I honestly cannot understand this idea that alpha men are selfish, uncaring, narcissitic pricks. Where the hell did this notion come from? I dont understand how people can say an alpha is a leader and yet at the same time he doesnt have a caring bone in his body?
> 
> This makes no damn sense to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pure Alpha males are not leaders. Pure Beta men are not leaders. It takes a balance of the positive qualities to be a leader. There pure extremes will not occur in nature but it is a sliding scale.

The confusion is when folks want to view Alpha as superior to Beta and so on as a scale of a quality man and that is not what it is about at all. In fact magnitude comes into play as well. You can have two fairly balanced men with one of them posessing high Alpha and High Beta traits while the other posesses lower Alpha and lower Beta traits. They both have a balance but they are very diffetrent people. 

A child is in a burning home and needs help :

An extreme Beta male cares very much for the child and only wishes someone could help the child. He is paralyzed by his own fear and lacks the confidence to be decisive and take action. He looks to others to save the child.

An extreme Alpha male has the capability to do something but is too selfish to risk their own well being.

A quality man with high Alpha and high Beta traits of the right combination will be driven to action. They are compelled by their Beta feelings to invoke the Alpha within them. They get past the fear and show courage. They are decisive. They know that they are the child's only chance. They take the risk knowing they may not survive themselves. That is very Beta, but it is also very Alpha. The combination is what makes the man.

A good leader cares about their people. They are strong for the group. There are not a lot of good leaders.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Enchanted said:


> Actually, I've been in the corporate world for a while. The most ruthless and aggressive people are middle management. The one at the top usually has a more even tempered demeanor and uses cooperative means to get the job done.


The folks at the top come off as having an even demeanor because they have the middle managers to do the dirty work. In reality of course there is no one answer here but as you surely understand upper management have there own PR people in large companies. They have a persona. A brand. 

Kinda like what you see in the military. The CO is always a great man. The XO is the [email protected] Until he makes CO and then he is the great guy.

Steven Jobs had an incredible impact on our society. He brought art to our lives in the form of technology. He was also a real [email protected] too at times. A great man by many accounts. Life is shades of gray. And color.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Entropy3000 said:


> Pure Alpha males are not leaders. Pure Beta men are not leaders. It takes a balance of the positive qualities to be a leader. There pure extremes will not occur in nature but it is a sliding scale.
> 
> The confusion is when folks want to view Alpha as superior to Beta and so on as a scale of a quality man and that is not what it is about at all. In fact magnitude comes into play as well. You can have two fairly balanced men with one of them posessing high Alpha and High Beta traits while the other posesses lower Alpha and lower Beta traits. They both have a balance but they are very diffetrent people.
> 
> ...


OH my Goodness... was this ever explained brilliantly ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ocotillo said: "This particular mental disorder is almost entirely an affliction of women. I don't think anybody really knows why."

I'll explain why. It is because there are no FEMALE serial killers. If there WERE, there would be sicko puppy men filling the court rooms trying to catch her eye.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'll explain why. It is because there are no FEMALE serial killers. If there WERE, there would be sicko puppy men filling the court rooms trying to catch her eye.


Do you remember Aileen Wuornos or Dorothea Puente? Have you ever heard of Nannie Doss or Bertha Gifford? 

Female serial killers are much rarer than their male counterparts but they have existed. I think that's a little wide of the point though. The phenomenon I've described is also sometimes called, "Bonnie and Clyde" syndrome because Bonnie Parker is considered a good example of it.

The most notorious criminals in prisons get mail from women they've never met by the bag full. --Declarations of undying affection. Offers of marriage. Offers to bear the criminal's child. This just doesn't happen when the genders are reversed.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"This just doesn't happen when the genders are reversed."

There just aren't the NUMBERS of female vicious killers available for the opposite to occur. You can't say it wouldn't happen, because there is no way to test it.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Pure Alpha males are not leaders. Pure Beta men are not leaders. It takes a balance of the positive qualities to be a leader. There pure extremes will not occur in nature but it is a sliding scale.
> 
> The confusion is when folks want to view Alpha as superior to Beta and so on as a scale of a quality man and that is not what it is about at all. In fact magnitude comes into play as well. You can have two fairly balanced men with one of them posessing high Alpha and High Beta traits while the other posesses lower Alpha and lower Beta traits. They both have a balance but they are very diffetrent people.
> 
> ...


Well said,
But,
This is not the first time you have explained this on TAM.

Which reminds me of something.
During my first year of Mech. Engineering , one of our courses was engineering drawing. A very simple subject IMO.
But ,most of the guys had problems with it because they never did the basics, I did and I had excelled in it.

I tried to explain to them that engineering drawing is based on geometric principles , vectors , lines , angles , curves etc. Most of them had already done calculus before and IMO, all they needed to do was go back into geometric calculus and establis the link.
They laughed at me.
A few of then " got it " and were able to understand.
At the end of the semester, most of the class failed Eng. Drawing , and had to repeat.
Of course I passed along with the few others who " got it ."

I've come to realize that in life, some people just never " get it", simply because they refuse to take a long look at it objectively.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> "This just doesn't happen when the genders are reversed."
> 
> There just aren't the NUMBERS of female vicious killers available for the opposite to occur. You can't say it wouldn't happen, because there is no way to test it.


Well I don't want to hijack Enchanted's thread here. My point is that bad behavior among men is socially rewarded in some ways and I think the concept of an 'Alpha male' sometimes gets conflated with that phenomenon. 

Believe it or not, the people who actually study this are not stupid and many of them are women themselves. The female fascination with the works of Anne Rice, Stephanie Meyer and Erika Leonard is believed to be a more rational expression of the same basic thing. The difference is women who enjoy these stories understand the difference between fantasy and reality.


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

Enchanted said:


> Actually, I've been in the corporate world for a while. The most ruthless and aggressive people are middle management. The one at the top usually has a more even tempered demeanor and uses cooperative means to get the job done.


I have noticed the same thing Enchanted! True observation!


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Well I don't want to hijack Enchanted's thread here. My point is that bad behavior among men is socially rewarded in some ways and I think the concept of an 'Alpha male' sometimes gets conflated with that phenomenon.
> 
> Believe it or not, the people who actually study this are not stupid and many of them are women themselves. The female fascination with the works of Anne Rice, Stephanie Meyer and Erika Leonard is believed to be a more rational expression of the same basic thing. The difference is women who enjoy these stories understand the difference between fantasy and reality.


I don't consider interesting observations highjacking. So no worries. 

Again, I don't believe there is such a thing as alpha or beta males. I believe people have personality traits. Some men are charismatic and manipulative; those men are able to get more women in the sack. I don't consider them alpha - narcissistic perhaps and verbally gifted, definitively. 

Women writing to men in prison it's a true phenomena which makes me sad and disgusted. I don't get it.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

curious2 said:


> The "Biff Tannens" of the world are more lonely than you imagine. They may have young, immature girls or damaged women around them. More likely than not, they are unable to connect to women in meaningful ways. They cant allow themselves to really let anybody in, to be vulnerable. The typical closed off male, emotionally unavailable....a hollow, superficial relationship is all a woman will get from him.


You're describing those with ASPD (Antisocial personality disorder) that is different from your run of the mill narcissistic male.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

curious2 said:


> The "Biff Tannens" of the world are more lonely than you imagine. They may have young, immature girls or damaged women around them. *More likely than not, they are unable to connect to women in meaningful ways. They cant allow themselves to really let anybody in, to be vulnerable. *The typical closed off male, emotionally unavailable....a hollow, superficial relationship is all a woman will get from him.
> /QUOTE]
> :iagree:
> I think some of the females attracted to them tend to see them as a challenge an they think / hope they could change them.
> Maybe for some sort of personal validation?


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> curious2 said:
> 
> 
> > The "Biff Tannens" of the world are more lonely than you imagine. They may have young, immature girls or damaged women around them. *More likely than not, they are unable to connect to women in meaningful ways. They cant allow themselves to really let anybody in, to be vulnerable. *The typical closed off male, emotionally unavailable....a hollow, superficial relationship is all a woman will get from him.
> ...


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

curious2 said:


> The "Biff Tannens" of the world are more lonely than you imagine. They may have young, immature girls or damaged women around them. More likely than not, they are unable to connect to women in meaningful ways. They cant allow themselves to really let anybody in, to be vulnerable. The typical closed off male, emotionally unavailable....a hollow, superficial relationship is all a woman will get from him.


No doubt.

I hope its clear that I don't think sociopathic behavior is a good thing. 

Gaia had asked where the notion that alpha men are selfish, uncaring, narcissitic pricks comes from.

I do as a father worry sometimes though because all my children are daughters


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## StoneAngel (Oct 10, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I think its a conflation of two different phenomen
> 
> I don't know a name for the phenomenon, but it's real. Most men notice in their early teens that the 'Biff Tannens' of the world are never lonely. They're not attractive to all women and I don't mean to imply that at all. I guess in extreme forms, this would be actual hybristophilia.


Agreed that this is probably the perspective in our teens but what we should learn by our twenties is that this is a fallacy. It is these people male and female who are most often the loneliest.

Due to the constant capitulating of the followers in "awe" these people never learn how to be comfortable with themselves. They don't know how to accept themselves. They never learn how to accept criticism and they have no capacity to bond with anyone on an intimate level. Most importantly at some point in their lives they come to realize that people flock to them only to gain something from them.

I have to disagree, these are probably the lonliest people on the planet.


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## StoneAngel (Oct 10, 2012)

curious2 said:


> The "Biff Tannens" of the world are more lonely than you imagine. They may have young, immature girls or damaged women around them. More likely than not, they are unable to connect to women in meaningful ways. They cant allow themselves to really let anybody in, to be vulnerable. The typical closed off male, emotionally unavailable....a hollow, superficial relationship is all a woman will get from him.


brilliant minds think alike. I posted my response to ocitillo's post before I read yours.

Sorry for the duplication folks


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

StoneAngel said:


> Agreed that this is probably the perspective in our teens but what we should learn by our twenties is that this is a fallacy. It is these people male and female who are most often the loneliest.
> 
> Due to the constant capitulating of the followers in "awe" these people never learn how to be comfortable with themselves. They don't know how to accept themselves. They never learn how to accept criticism and they have no capacity to bond with anyone on an intimate level. Most importantly at some point in their lives they come to realize that people flock to them only to gain something from them.
> 
> I have to disagree, these are probably the lonliest people on the planet.


So going back to the original cause of the thread - I don't think there is such a thing as an Alpha male. A person with Antisocial Personality Disorder (aka sociopath) yes - but not an alpha male.

I do think some men tend to get into positions of power but I don't think that makes them "Alpha." Plus, a lot of times leaders fall. So does that mean their no longer alpha? No. It means they never were alpha, they just had some traits that gave them the ability to get into positions of power for a limited amount of time.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

curious2 said:


> The whole alpha/beta debate really comes down to how insecurity manisfests itself in men and how to fix it. The focus is on the beta as the "problematic" one. Its too simplistic. The key is to be authentic; to honor yourself. To have the courage and confidence to do so without looking for acceptance or approval. This is how a man or a woman "leads" in a relationship; with who they truly are. I think the man or the woman will lead in different aspects and in different ways. In a good relationship they will coalesce.


I suspect much of the issue with beta being the problem has to do with the most receptive audience. Those who would be labeled "alpha" very likely don't read too many self-improvement books or search the web for help, where as those that would be labeled "beta" are more likely to do so. At least in the short term, the "alpha" traits are rewarded, so there is less incentive to look for balance.

To me, balance is the goal. Alpha and beta were nice short-hand terms to describe categories of behavior. It is not about becoming an alpha or beta person (because I agree that they don't really exist). Rather, it is about workin on yourself to achieve the balance of behaviors that work for you (and it is as much about the journey as it is about the end result). Unfortunately, these terms have become so loaded that many can't get by them to discuss reasonably.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Enchanted said:


> Again, I don't believe there is such a thing as alpha or beta males. I believe people have personality traits. *Some men are charismatic and manipulative; those men are able to get more women in the sack.* I don't consider them alpha - narcissistic perhaps and verbally gifted, definitively.


_"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet." _-- Juliet Capulet

Then don't call them alpha, call them "The Guys Who Get Laid a Lot." Same thing.



Enchanted said:


> Women writing to men in prison it's a true phenomena which makes me sad and disgusted. I don't get it.


Here's a couple of interesting articles for you:

Why Do Women Fall for Serial Killers

Killer Game


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

I like *ALPHA*-Bits.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

StoneAngel said:


> I have to disagree, these are probably the lonliest people on the planet.


"Never lonely" is a euphemism


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)




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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> _"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
> By any other name would smell as sweet." _-- Juliet Capulet
> 
> Then don't call them alpha, call them "The Guys Who Get Laid a Lot." Same thing.


:iagree:

Fact is ,
No matter if we call them Alpha, Beta , Lambda, Tau , Phi , Rho, or Sigma. 
There is and has always been a class of guys who get the most women Even in the bible it could be seen. 

King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
What is quite notable about this , is that all of his wives were the daughters of rival neighbouring kings.They were royalty _before_ they met him.
Even the powerful Ethoipian Queen,Sheba journeyed for months across the desert to meet him in his kingdom,bearing gifts.
She left his kingdom a year later,fully pregnant with his child.

So how do we explain this phenomenon ?
Just pretend it does not exist?

An interesting side note,
Even though Solomon was reputed to be " the wisest man in his days ,"
He was a great leader but a _terrible_ father.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> _"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
> By any other name would smell as sweet." _-- Juliet Capulet
> 
> Then don't call them alpha, call them "The Guys Who Get Laid a Lot." Same thing.
> ...


Well, I don't believe in "alpha males" but I do believe there are guys who get laid a lot.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> Then don't call them alpha, call them "The Guys Who Get Laid a Lot." Same thing.


In a similar vein...


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Jane_Doe said:


> *A 'leader' in a capitalist society is usually a ruthless, profit-mongering [email protected]* (and usually male), so perhaps that's the only way some men know how to 'lead'. As a society maybe we've trained our leaders that way, instead of training them to care for the group, look out for the people they lead, and do what is in the group's best interest, not the leader's best interest.


The problem for this theory is that the same traits rise to the top in collectivist societies (see: Ulyanov, Vladimir Illych; Mao, Zedong; ), pre-capitalist societies (see: David ben Jesse; Kahn, Genghis) and even chimpanzee society.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> In a similar vein...


_According to Beall, the pride expression accentuates typically masculine physical features, such as upper body size and muscularity. “Previous research has shown that these features are among the most attractive male physical characteristics, as judged by women,” he said._

Pretty much the whole ball of wax in a nutshell, to mix metaphors. Power poses and expressions backed up by raw muscularity scores. And scores. And scores.

excellent article.


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