# Causes of ED in Younger Men



## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

The potential end of my relationship has me wondering. What are some reasons a man in his early twenties would have ED?

In the meantime, he tries to give me excuses as to why he has consistently turned me down for sex in favor of masturbation and/or porn. 
He doesn't have issues rising to the occasion every time, but maybe 2 out of 10. Maybe. 
I asked if he has the same issue with porn, he says That yes, he does. 
I think it's a mix of intimacy issues and a medical problem when I'm involved. 
I believe he runs straight to the porn as soon as he can because he doesn't have performance anxiety and can indeed perform without a problem. 

I've always known there was some sort of ED issue...he got hospitalized for dehydration once and the doctor ran bloodwork. His prostrate level (forget what it's called, driving me nuts!!!) were on the high end of average for his age. 

He followed up with his PCP, he did a prostate check, and said it was slightly enlarged; another "high end of average" diagnosis. He said not to worry, but referred to a urologist to ease our minds. Insurance was lost before the appointment, and he never got to go. 

So for those of you who are familiar with such things (I'm aware you're not doctors) if like to hear your thoughts and / or opinions.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Chronic masturbation - chronic, not occasional - can lead to desensitisation because the hand grips differently. The feedback loop from masturbation is very tight. You have 100% control. 

Porn. Goes straight to the brain past anxiety or effort or anything that requires an executive function. The situations are intense, you can choose exactly what you like, and it doesn't require anything from you. It is all about you. Nobody else.

After a while, you have a situation where the threshold to get excited is beyond what a flesh and blood human being can supply. 

You may be a bit excited at the prospect of actual sex, but the reality is a let down. Guess what else goes down...

A person who gets to that point has more than sexual issues. Masturbation/porn are escapes. You have to deal with the root cause first.

Then, after a period of abstinence from both porn and m. some feeling can return. It can get better over time. 

For those who have been doing it seemingly forever, it isn't likely to return to "normal". 

If the person wants to orgasm in their partner sex can't happen every day. Sex every day will either be frustrating or prompt masturbation either with the partner or in secret.

Secrets are also bad for sex.

A guy in his 20s has a better shot at recovering but it takes a lot of willpower. 

there are enough guys out there without porn and masturbation habits that don't cause relationship issues and sexual dysfunction. You might want to look at it as a warning sign that person isn't mentally healthy and choose to steer clear . you aren't there stare at the doctor you're not there mami . to be in a relationship it helps to be relationship material . is guys are not relationship material . I'm not trying to be cold because I understand how these things can happen . but if you were my daughter I would tell you that your life is too short to take on someone who is a project from the very beginning . 

anyone who has been in a relationship with someone who has delayed ejaculation or a masturbation have it knows the ongoing heartbreak . way too much time is spent trying to figure out what's wrong with you that you don't turn the guy on and trying to ramp things up perhaps to where you aren't even comparable to try to prove to yourself and tell him that you're really a sexy wonderful person . the worst case is however our when the man blames you for not being hot enough, seductive enough or a porn star willing to do whatever it takes to get him off. those guys refuse to admit that they are the problem . 

Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Agreed that chances are slim he could be having true biological ED at his age.

I imagine its the porn/masturbation as well as the fact that your relationship turned toxic.


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## soulsearch (Aug 2, 2013)

if masturbation caused problems, every man in the world would show symptoms.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I guess you didn't read what I should carefully . 

I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a pro porn pro masturbation thread it completely ignores the facts of the situation . those things get very very tiring and they're not at all helpful to the people who need help cuz they are not at all applicable . 
I 
stand by every word I wrote.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Thank you for all of the input - from both sides. 

I was wondering if physical medical issues such as high prostrate hormone And enlarged prostrate can be caused by this desensitization? 

Or could his medical issues (high end of average) bloodwork AND enlargement be the cause of the ED?

And porn/masturbation is irritating it further. ..

Sometimes he comes but it sorta goes back in. Sometimes there's not much come. 

And it stays hard for a long time after ejaculation. 

Sorry if its TMI, just trying to make sense of things to not only make myself feel better, but urge him to the doctor once he gets insurance in case he could be sick or possibly get sick (cancer) in the future. 

No matter our relationship status I still don't want him to get sick .


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm sorry for what you are going through. 

But his health is his own problem. Yes you care about him and don't want him to be ill...but again, you can only care, you can't do anything. It is on him.

I have personally known 3 guys, one a friend and two were lovers, who MB'd daily (and this was before the days of internet porn...if they had porn it would have been magazines) and who could not get fully erect. The one who was a friend seemed to understand that his daily MB habit was the reason he couldn't really get hard anymore. The two who were my lovers were totally clueless that this was a factor. They were also clueless that they weren't totally erect. 

Either they were in total denial of the lack of hardness, or they just didn't know that other young men normally get totally hard, not just partially. I dunno. I did try to talk to them about the daily MB and asked "well, maybe if you'd give it a break and just go 1 or 2 days without MBing, you could get harder for actual sex". They both looked like deer in headlights, and one of them said "why deny myself?" He clearly did not understand that it wouldn't be denying himself, it would be adding to his sexual abilities with a partner.

The other guy, I tip toed around the idea of Viagra with him...because he just didn't have enough hardness to make sex any good. He said "you think I need it?" Again, completely unaware. I was shocked because I thought these guys would know that a softie wasn't a very good ride for a woman. I thought they would work with me on it. Nope. They were either in denial or whatever...but nothing changed. (I dumped them both as soon as I realized they had no self-awareness).

I don't know if that helps you, but I'm just pointing out that it is pretty obvious what happens to some men who MB daily or more. I think men like this who don't can't or won't make sure they also have partnered sex are just not that sexual.

It takes no risk to watch porn and MB. And man who is actually a sexual person will not accept just MBing...he will insist on having good, partnered sex as well.

I did have another boyfriend who MB'd every day and was still raring to go for sex every day on top of it. He was far more sexual and self-aware than the other 3 I mentioned.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I changed my original post for "sharing" purposes. So he would be more open minded to reading it. Less about us and more about him.


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## Code-Welder (Dec 17, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> Or could his medical issues (high end of average) bloodwork AND enlargement be the cause of the ED?.


Chronic prostrate problems maybe part of the issue, there maybe other medical issues. Did he have a complete blood work up when he saw the Doctor? Free t levels, over all T levels, LH, TSH, and FSH hormones should be tested.

ED for a guy his age is either relationship related or health related or from what I have read could be both.


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## soulseer (Jul 26, 2013)

confidence issues can also be a part of the problem. 

never underestimate the power of the mind when talking about penises..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Being cuckholded and/or cheated on can diminish the sexual confidence in a male, and result in ED.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

soulsearch said:


> if masturbation caused problems, every man in the world would show symptoms.


I went 15 years without having to masterbate. I touched my penis to urinate and that was it.

If I wanted sex, I got it.

I did find if I did masterbate it reduced my focus and dampened my desire for the real thing.

Having gone almost sexless for the last three years, in hindsight, I say it's better better to be able to have sex when you want to and leave masterbation alone for the most part.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Sounds like retrograde ejaculation if he is MB and you don't see much ejaculate. 

Can he .... inside you? If so, are you sure he isn't faking it? 

Google retarded or delayed or inhibited ejaculation. Look especially at psychforums to get first hand accounts of some of the problems young men are having. 

There are situational issues (with certain partners, certain conditions), medical causes, mental health causes and masturbatory/porn causes.

This can be a lifelong problem for some.

He is young. Encourage good cardiovascular health - aerobic exercise. Encourage a moratorium of a few weeks on P* and M*. 

If there is improvement he will be able to recover. If there isn't or he can't stop these behaviors, he can try to cut down gradually. Like any habit you want to kick, he will have to find a replacement activity. 

He should have a check up and be honest with the doctor. But a lot ofare doctors are not really educated about this stuff, though they think they are. They can put the search for a solution back with misinformation that cause the guy to stop looking.

Simple stuff first. Cut out P&M. If he can't or won't he needs help from a sex therapist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Stress, is easily overlooked.

Plenty of meds will cause it. Mine along with prostate issues was precipitated by ADD meds. Just throwing that out there.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

I have to say, the porn situation on the Internet is just starting to be the problem it's going to be. 
We can't protect our kids. Yeah sure when their little but mine are 21 and 19. Porn access is damaging at any age especially when they are just starting real adult relationships.

What are we to do? It's all over the place and getting more and more mainstreamed as "normal" and ok. It's not.

I do believe its the cause of a lot of men's ED problems. Along with the estrogens in so many of our daily foods and cooking utensils.
Leading to low Testosterone of course.


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## jdd (Aug 30, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Stress, is easily overlooked.
> 
> Plenty of meds will cause it. Mine along with prostate issues was precipitated by ADD meds. Just throwing that out there.


Which add med caused you problems?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Adderall


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Great, my 13 yo son takes Adderall. And is into porn, he tries to sneak and look. UGH.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Hey, my close friend's 13 yo daughter is into porn, too. I don't think any child would turn away from it once they catch a glimpse. They are all looking at it on their phones at this point, or if they can't on theirs, 40 of their friends will show them anything they want on their phone. Do an image search for "sex" anywhere on any device or computer, and EVERY child has done this...there you go. Porn-a-palooza.

This is why the porn problem will not be a "mostly male" problem in the future. In the next generation, every adult will have been exposed to hardcore stuff by the age of 13 and both genders will have their various issues to deal with. It is not just a male problem or issue. It is a world issue now.

If porn didn't cause problems in actual sex lives, I'd be all for it for everyone. But since I've seen sooo many stories (including several real life friends) where porn and excessive masturbation caused sexual dysfunction (men and women both) that I just feel it is something people should understand. If you are having more porn than you are having sex, there is a problem of some kind OR you are creating a problem with this dynamic.

Masturbation is a bit different. Only if it is excessive and replacing sex or causing dysfunction do I see it as a problem. The main reason my H and I have a "no MB without permission" rule is because he knows if I am knocking it out on my own I will be leaking some sexual build up that he'd rather I use for sex. Since he agrees to meet my sexual needs, I agree not to MB and leak them out but to turn to him instead. The rule we have in place is mostly just for cutesy fun. The reason behind the rule is the important part.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

I still can't believe that any man would choose porn over a woman.

I DO know men who have been watching porn from a young age and now can only become aroused from it. They are completely dependent on it.

And this is absolutely not a problem. They are always, always nerdier, chubbier more awkward guys who simply can't get women. Porn is an important outlet for them. They can save themselves the humiliation of being rejected over and over again.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

But they are also killing their chances at a much better sex life in the future when they are older, established, handsome and successful men who CAN get women.

Porn isn't required for masturbation. They can masturbate without watching and thus creating that feedback loop that attaches them to the images, thereby making what they are watching the "good part"...rather than the pleasure they are receiving being the "good part".

I love Dr. Glover's views on healthy masturbation for this reason. I get so tired of the "shame" argument, whereby any mention that porn may not be healthy in all cases is met with "stop trying to shame men". I'm saying for both men and women, masturbating while focusing on your body and the pleasure you are having is not only healthy but it also increases your sexual abilities.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> But they are also killing their chances at a much better sex life in the future when they are older, established, handsome and successful men who CAN get women.
> 
> Porn isn't required for masturbation. They can masturbate without watching and thus creating that feedback loop that attaches them to the images, thereby making what they are watching the "good part"...rather than the pleasure they are receiving being the "good part".
> 
> I love Dr. Glover's views on healthy masturbation for this reason. I get so tired of the "shame" argument, whereby any mention that porn may not be healthy in all cases is met with "stop trying to shame men". I'm saying for both men and women, masturbating while focusing on your body and the pleasure you are having is not only healthy but it also increases your sexual abilities.


You do know that the grip a man uses with his hand is completely different than a vagina and can desensitize him too right?

These men, some are in their 30s, have never been successful with women. Though it is revealing that you mention "older, successful, established." Of course some woman, maybe many, will fake attraction once they start running out of eggs and need a provider but a lot of guys can see through this. I notice this a lot at my age.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ntamph said:


> You do know that the grip a man uses with his hand is completely different than a vagina and can desensitize him too right?
> 
> These men, some are in their 30s, have never been successful with women. Though it is revealing that you mention "older, successful, established." Of course some woman, maybe many, will fake attraction once they start running out of eggs and need a provider but a lot of guys can see through this. I notice this a lot at my age.


If your not having sexual relations, regular masterbation could be about the very worst thing you could do. I could see cleaning the pipes very irregularly while you seek a receptive relation/sexual partner. But to substitute your sex life for masterbation, depletes you of sexual vigor, and actually will make you feel worse over time.

On the seeing through looking for a provider. Welcome to our culture. It goes both ways obviously, and many of us pray that there are people who are out there for good reasons, just want someone who appreciates them...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

All I meant was that no man should exclude himself from the sexual marketplace if he actually does want to be with a woman at some point. If he doesn't, if he is truly ok with being self-sexual only for his whole life, then you are right, it makes no difference.

What was with the snarky first comment above though? You do know I am old and have vast experience, right?


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> What was with the snarky first comment above though? You do know I am old and have vast experience, right?


Not snarky.  Could have worded it better. But long term masturbation desensitizes more than porn.

Again, these guys aren't getting anything any time soon. It's been like this for them for years and will stay like this.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> All I meant was that no man should exclude himself from the sexual marketplace if he actually does want to be with a woman at some point. If he doesn't, if he is truly ok with being self-sexual only for his whole life, then you are right, it makes no difference.
> 
> What was with the snarky first comment above though? You do know I am old and have vast experience, right?


Going into it, some men and women probably do not realize they are going to be self-sexual... I believe many of them get broken down by some conditions that they eventually give into.

With that part of themself killed down, they are happy to lead a celebate life and figure they can pleasure themself if they want to have sexual release.

If going into it, someone always knew they wanted to be self-sexual, thats different.

A couple of bad relationships shouldn't want to make someone to lead a self-sexual life... That's being broken-down.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"But long term masturbation desensitizes more than porn."

Yes, I see the point you were making about it now. And true...porn itself doesn't cause the desensitization.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes in the case of chosen celibacy, I can't think of any reason not to use porn...other than if it creates mental habits that are unhealthy (a whole other topic).

I think that porn in moderation really can't hurt anyone.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes in the case of chosen celibacy, I can't think of any reason not to use porn...other than if it creates mental habits that are unhealthy (a whole other topic).
> 
> I think that porn in moderation really can't hurt anyone.


In moderation it can add spice.

It cannot be the bulk and majority of your sexual viewpoint.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Porn causes a different kind of desensitization. If the brain is the largest sex organ and it gets high intensity messages long enough it doesn't respond to average stimulation. 

A lot of guys aren't happy to be auto-sexual. They don't find out exactly unhappy they are until they enter into a relationship. Then the real pain begins for them and the poor girl who doesn't know what is wrong with *her*. 

Men need to talk to their sons about this. It isn't an anti-masturbation message. It is a serious issue that I wouldn't wish on any young man. Men's hyper-protection of porn as a God-given right is a part of the problem. To admit that porn and masturbation can have a devastating effect on sexual function threatens them. V


These kids don't have to sneak pop's magazines. They have 24/7 access to anything they want any time they want. They aren't mature enough to understand what they are doing to themselves. They live in the moment. It feels good. It is intense. Everyone watches it. 

We don't want our kids doing drugs. Porn has similar effect on the pleasure center of the brain. they haven't experienced real sex so they have nothing to compare it to. They simply cannot fathom the difference. 

I implore men to speak to their boys about this. A man can speak from experience and he can point out the danger in a way a mom cannot. Boys need strong guidance. 

I'm gearing up for the back-lash from the people who either don't believe this is a problem or that only see an anti-masturbation/anti-porn message. Oh well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I've always been a sex positive mom, and been able to talk to my kids about sex. I really, really, really tried with my son to impress upon him what you just wrote, clipclop. I started in on him at age 14 with these types of messages (that you can harm your sexual functioning later with what you do now in your earliest sexual experiences, and explain about addiction/compulsion, etc)...I tried again at various times after that until age 19. I tried to incorporate an "in moderation it can be fine" attitude to avoid any shaming. He always said "Yes mom, I got it". But I know he didn't. How could he?

I am not sure if his father tried or not, he is a good father but left that type of talk to me because it was easier and more natural to me.

I can only hope he has a great sex life as at this point, I can't have that discussion with him, he is 25 now. Too late for me to try to influence him and I'm not going to make him talk about porn to his mommy ever. Not appropriate. I do wish his dad might still try, though. 

The one thing I am doing well is modeling a happy marriage full of sex and romance for him.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

My husband talked to the boys. My h couldn't deny, deflect or plead ignorance any longer. He faced the truth, in his mid-forties, what this did to him. 

Dads are not stepping up. For all their "what happened to men" chest-beating, I think it is more of "why have we allowed women to point out that we haven't grown up.". It was a long battle but my H got honest and confronted his selfishness and immatiurity. He shared all of it with the boys. It took a ton of guts. Think about it. Most men would rather die. My H opened up to them. 

They are young men and may ignore their dad. But they will still have that warning in the back of their minds. It wouldn't be there at all if their dad was a wussy.

(not saying my handsome H doesn't piss me off in other ways! But he done good here and I love and respect him for it. I am smiling like crazy typing this. YUM! Love that man!!!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> But they are also killing their chances at a much better sex life in the future when they are older, established, handsome and successful men who CAN get women.
> 
> Porn isn't required for masturbation. They can masturbate without watching and thus creating that feedback loop that attaches them to the images, thereby making what they are watching the "good part"...rather than the pleasure they are receiving being the "good part".
> 
> I love Dr. Glover's views on healthy masturbation for this reason. I get so tired of the "shame" argument, whereby any mention that porn may not be healthy in all cases is met with "stop trying to shame men". I'm saying for both men and women, masturbating while focusing on your body and the pleasure you are having is not only healthy but it also increases your sexual abilities.


Yes, I agree with Faihfulwife, if men would only masterbate when the urge was too intense to concentrate that's ok. But porn is causing people to masterbate when their body doesn't need but heir mind wants to have the "fix"

This causes a desensitizing to the body and an obsessing with the mind. In this case making ED that much more upsetting because they think "I really want it, but it won't work..ugh! What's wrong with me?"

Masterbation is fine, porn is like cocaine to EVERYONE WHO SEES IT.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

dogman said:


> Yes, I agree with Faihfulwife, if men would only masterbate when the urge was too intense to concentrate that's ok. But porn is causing people to masterbate when their body doesn't need but heir mind wants to have the "fix"
> 
> This causes a desensitizing to the body and an obsessing with the mind. In this case making ED that much more upsetting because they think "I really want it, but it won't work..ugh! What's wrong with me?"
> 
> Masterbation is fine, porn is like cocaine to EVERYONE WHO SEES IT.


I will reiterate. Masterbating when you are lonely, and need a sexual/intimate partner is about the worse thing you can do.

It provides a release, but releases motivation required to obtain the new sexual relations. Plus it trains the mind to respond to the hand, and builds self defeating behaviors when it comes to actual sex with the opposite sex.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

treyvion said:


> I will reiterate. Masterbating when you are lonely, and need a sexual/intimate partner is about the worse thing you can do.
> 
> It provides a release, but releases motivation required to obtain the new sexual relations. Plus it trains the mind to respond to the hand, and builds self defeating behaviors when it comes to actual sex with the opposite sex.


All things in moderation.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

dogman said:


> if men would only masterbate when the urge was too intense to concentrate that's ok.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

treyvion said:


> I will reiterate. Masterbating when you are lonely, and need a sexual/intimate partner is about the worse thing you can do.
> 
> It provides a release, but releases motivation required to obtain the new sexual relations. Plus it trains the mind to respond to the hand, and builds self defeating behaviors when it comes to actual sex with the opposite sex.


The men that I was talking about don't have to worry about being able to perform because women won't usually even respond to a "Hi" from them.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

And yes, I do think most of this is crazy anti-masturbation anti-porn paranoia.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

ntamph said:


> And yes, I do think most of this is crazy anti-masturbation anti-porn paranoia.


You said yourself a vagina cannot compare to a man own grip if he's masturbated chronically. 

But I am still curious if a "high end of average" enlarged prostate could cause some of the ED issues. 

I also believe it has somewhat to do with how often he is masturbating, absolutely. 

I'm not anti porn & anti masturbation to the point I think it should never be done, but when it replaces your partner or your partner is in need and you choose to masturbate instead , then yes, I am "anti" that. 

I'm also "anti" my 13 yo looking at porn and masturbating so frequently. You cannot tell me that it will NOT have an adverse affect on his sexual future in the "real world" especially if he's desensitized his penis in the way you've described. If he started at 12, and doesn't have relation with a woman (or man, whatever) until he's - say, 18, that's 6 years of chronic desensitization that a vagina, mouth, or anus just can't compete with. 

And that has nothing to do with paranoia. It's a very real concern I have for my kid.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

I still see people thinking that men who are "addicted" to porn have women who want to have sex with them and turn them down for porn.

A man's success (or lack of) with women determines his level of porn use, not the other way around.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

ntamph said:


> I still see people thinking that men who are "addicted" to porn have women who want to have sex with them and turn them down for porn.
> 
> A man's success (or lack of) with women determines his level of porn use, not the other way around.



What you say here is simply not true. Maybe in the single population because I can't speak for them, but with married men this is an epic problem. It's not their ability to "get" women. It's their level of interest after many years of marriage.

I've had many conversations and given support to men who've lost their way because of unrealistic expectations from real women due to porn use.

Porn is not good for relationships when it's not used in moderation. 

With that said I'm not against porn, im against how easy it is for kids to get. And how easy it is to abuse. My kids were raised with computers and I could control what's on our home computers but not their friends houses or all the phones out there.
When theyre young they don't have the maturity of thought to know how to stay away from things that are harmful, especially harmful to relationships they have no knowledge of yet.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

ntamph said:


> I still see people thinking that men who are "addicted" to porn have women who want to have sex with them and turn them down for porn.
> 
> A man's success (or lack of) with women determines his level of porn use, not the other way around.


So you are saying this doesn't happen?

I was ready, willing, and more than able to fulfill my SO's needs, yet he consistently chose porn. 

Forgive me if I'm missing your point, but I can't believe that you honestly believe it's that cut and dry. And a man has never chosen to use porn instead of sleep with his SO. 

please correct me if I mistook your statement. I'm not trying to be difficult, but rather understand.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ntamph said:


> The men that I was talking about don't have to worry about being able to perform because women won't usually even respond to a "Hi" from them.


Well those particular men need to wake up and pull their head from under the sand and cure whatever self defeating behaviors or appearance issues, so they can at least have some sort of relationship. Through masterbating and avoiding the problem, they are locking themself into a life of being their own sexual partner.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Well those particular men need to wake up and pull their head from under the sand and cure whatever self defeating behaviors or appearance issues, so they can at least have some sort of relationship. Through masterbating and avoiding the problem, they are locking themself into a life of being their own sexual partner.


I don't think they want to subject themselves to humiliation anymore.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ntamph...if you really think this is just anti-porn propaganda, why would the men who have answered here been saying the things they did? Are you thinking these men have a moral objection to porn, even though what they are talking about is about sexual functioning? Why would you think they are lying about their own thoughts on the subject?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ntamph said:


> I don't think they want to subject themselves to humiliation anymore.


Wow. What a copout.


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## jdd (Aug 30, 2013)

dogman said:


> I've had many conversations and given support to men who've lost their way because of unrealistic expectations from real women due to porn use.


Please Forgive the bluntness here, but what kind of porn are we talking about here? 

Are we talking about any porn or is this like hard core commercially produced porn?

I never was into the commercial porn at all and don't look at any porn now (not because I have a problem with it, but because I just don't feel I need it with where I'm at in my relationship). When I did look at it, I looked at those type of sites where couples had posted photos / videos of themselves / their partner. So it was very real and I don't see it setting unrealistic expectations in general because it was just real couples who made these videos / photos for fun.

Maybe there is a legit reason the type of stuff I looked at is bad also? I just don't see it setting the "unrealistic expectations".


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

jdd said:


> Please Forgive the bluntness here, but what kind of porn are we talking about here?
> 
> Are we talking about any porn or is this like hard core commercially produced porn?
> 
> ...


That's funny. 

Ok it depends own your age. Some guys in their 40s looking at teens all the time are setting an unrealistic bar. I say 40s because that's the age of my friends. 

If one guys wife is not so hot or say not so sexual or even consider that normal life can sometimes not be so sexy or maybe your wifeis not so adventurous.

We can get graphic as well. But I'll leave it to your imagination what some wives won't do.

Visit the sex in marriage forum and you'll see how incompatible couples can be when married for some time.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

"Unrealistic expectations" = a woman who wants to have sex with you.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ntamph said:


> "Unrealistic expectations" = a woman who wants to have sex with you.


A man who has "unrealistic exectations" will be having sexual relations?


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

treyvion said:


> A man who has "unrealistic exectations" will be having sexual relations?


No, what I mean is the "unrealistic expectations" that men see in porn are not giant breasts or ATM but a willing an enthusiastic partner who wants you. This section of the forum shows how rare they are (especially in marriage).


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ntamph said:


> No, what I mean is the "unrealistic expectations" that men see in porn are not giant breasts or ATM but a willing an enthusiastic partner who wants you. This section of the forum shows how rare they are (especially in marriage).


Oh,

Those are out there. The thing about it's conditional. So for a male... In many cases, as long as she isn't able to feel she has fully snagged you, you may be having sex a the rate you established...


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Oh,
> 
> Those are out there. The thing about it's conditional. So for a male... In many cases, as long as she isn't able to feel she has fully snagged you, you may be having sex a the rate you established...


Exactly - "may" if your lucky - porn is a much more sure thing.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ntamph said:


> Exactly - "may" if your lucky - porn is a much more sure thing.


When she declines it for what ever reason, you better immediately switch to the appropriate game. She can find a way to keep that rate up.

If she feels like you won't go anywhere, or you have no other options she will have no problem decreasing or removing the menu at all... Her desire to do it, which may have been artificially inflated with her girlfriends juicey stories, aren't as exciting with the mr dependable.

An easy game to switch into, is for them to realize you are close to other ladies, and can easily be provided sexual gratification if you so choose.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ntamph...How is a complete fantasy a "sure thing?" Anyone can have a complete fantasy, it means nothing.

A "sure thing" refers to actual sex.

Do you mean his O is a "sure thing"? That's actually a sure thing for men even without porn.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

It's a "sure thing" - you get an orgasm and a little sexual thrill. treyvion himself admits the games you have to play to get regular, good sex.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Being a desirable male is not a "game". It is a lifestyle.

treyvion would also tell these boys to stop what they are doing and get out there and find a real woman, stop hiding behind the "rejection hurts" banner.

If a "little sexual thrill" is the best you're ever going to get out of porn, yet the porn itself may prevent you from ever having partnered sex, how is this a better choice?

A "little sexual thrill" is what they are dumping their sexual functioning out the window for.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

There was a poll here this morning, it was taken down, basically asking if when the women here were single, did they never approach men, sometimes approach men, or were always approached by men. Basically the vast majority have never asked a man out in their entire lives.

Simply dismissing "rejection hurts" means you can't understand what it's like to be a man and have this happen again and again.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I again strongly appeal to those who rely on their peers and popular culture to open their eyes and see things as they are. Not many guys admit to having performance problems due to P. &/or M. when they are hanging out together. 

You will see it anonymously on the net from guys who got honest with themselves and are desperate for a solution. 

This issue gets into the mindset of "I will see it when I believe it" so much so that the people who think this way will either not do any research at all or will seek only what supports their view. They would rather hide their heads in the sand. 

That alone is an example of how powerful a hold porn has so on many people, and yes, usually men. People choose ignorance.

It is the kind of denial we see in the coping with infidelity forum daily. 

If you have kids or are planning to have them, failure to take these cautions seriously is a disservice to them. Deliberate ignorance is not an excuse for not preparing your kids for reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> yet the porn itself may prevent you from ever having partnered sex, how is this a better choice?


The porn is not preventing a relationship, they can't get into a relationship in the first place.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ntamph said:


> The porn is not preventing a relationship, they can't get into a relationship in the first place.


Don't use the word "can't" with human beings unless their dead.

The right word is "don't". Porn and release through porn reduces the motivation for the real thing and also makes it look at it as it is unattainable, fantasy only.

It's a very easy thing to do, people do it.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Don't use the word "can't" with human beings unless their dead.
> 
> The right word is "don't". Porn and release through porn reduces the motivation for the real thing and also makes it look at it as it is unattainable, fantasy only.
> 
> It's a very easy thing to do, people do it.


I have a friend.......a great guy, funny as hell, always happy. But, he is overweight and into Star Trek. A 31 year old virgin. I know what you'll say "lose weight and stop being a nerd." He should change who he is. I have female friends who are obese with ****ty personalities but they have sex and boyfriends.

It's not remotely the same for men and women.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

ntamph said:


> There was a poll here this morning, it was taken down, basically asking if when the women here were single, did they never approach men, sometimes approach men, or were always approached by men. Basically the vast majority have never asked a man out in their entire lives.
> 
> Simply dismissing "rejection hurts" means you can't understand what it's like to be a man and have this happen again and again.


I don't see that this is relevant to the discussion. 

Just because someone is single doesn't mean that porn and masturbation can't be harmful. The longer you are autosexual the greater the danger. 

There is no difference between choosing porn over a wife than choosing porn over finding a mate. They both replace flesh and blood women. Porn as a replacement for women. And maybe the guy who can't find a woman isn't realistic about his sex rank. There are so many desperate women out there it is terrible. Pulling yourself out of the dating pool because porn is just easier may also be an indication that there is a reason a guy is unable to get a date. 

I feel sorry for those guys. Looking around, There are very unattractive, unintelligent people out there with mates. If they can do it, anyone can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ntamph said:


> I have a friend.......a great guy, funny as hell, always happy. But, he is overweight and into Star Trek. A 31 year old virgin. I know what you'll say "lose weight and stop being a nerd." He should change who he is. I have female friends who are obese with ****ty personalities but they have sex and boyfriends.
> 
> It's not remotely the same for men and women.


I know exactly wat you are saying. As a friend you should help him to break his cherry.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

treyvion said:


> I know exactly wat you are saying. As a friend you should help him to break his cherry.


How?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ntamph said:


> How?


Provide him with someone willing to do the deed.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Guys who give up is a good topic. Consider creating a thread in general relationships. 

And yeah, people change themselves all the time when they see a benefit. They buy new clothes, get haircuts, go back to school, break bad habits... this whole argument is sad but it is a choice rather than something inflicted on them. 

Seriously, start a new thread. It might help you and your sad sack friends stop being so "can't do". It is a horrible quality in a person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Provide him with someone willing to do the deed.


Lol, I'm not a pimp. The ugly girls would rather share a more attractive guy than get his full attention. He's screwed. They're all screwed. 

Porn makes women angry because in a small way, it reduces their power as the gatekeepers to sex. That's why it's hated.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Provide him with someone willing to do the deed.


I don't like the implication of that statement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> I don't like the implication of that statement.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just a mutual friend who does not mind taking care of that problem.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ntamph said: "Porn makes women angry because in a small way, it reduces their power as the gatekeepers to sex. That's why it's hated."

Oh if only it were that simple.

ntamph...I believe one day you'll move past this very limited viewpoint. You really must love/hate women to actually make such a statement, and clearly you don't understand female sexuality at all to say it. But I know one day you'll "get it" and suddenly realize, that this quote above is something that only men who shamefully cling to their porn ever say.

Women will always be the gatekeepers to sex. This is because we must bear the responsibility for bearing and raising a child. The father can disappear, but we must bear a child. That means we get to keep the gate...and no amount of whining about this "injustice" will ever change it. Just accept it, and learn what you need to know about SEXUALITY versus just "how to get sex".

Gotta tell ya, she ain't gonna pass through a guy who can't even do the deed.

She will though gladly teach a newbie. We have all done at least one.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> She will though gladly teach a newbie. We have all done at least one.


There was a thread not too long ago where women were asked if they would teach a newbie. Overwhelmingly the answers were "NO! That's disgusting, what a loser!"

I don't hate women. I'm describing the situation. You admit that women control sex but expect it to be easy for men to get it and if they can't then there is something seriously wrong with them.

Most people are OK with gays, bisexuals, poly people. But men who would rather go to porn than women have a special vitriol directed at them. They may be ugly losers, but they have stopped trying and are off the market. That makes some women angry.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ntamph said: "They may be ugly losers, but they have stopped trying and are off the market. That makes some women angry."

No, it really doesn't make us angry that ugly losers are off the market.

And not for the reasons you think either.

You keep telling yourself whatever you have to believe for now...the world will teach you much much more than you ever believed over time.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

ntamph said:


> Lol, I'm not a pimp. The ugly girls would rather share a more attractive guy than get his full attention. He's screwed. They're all screwed.
> 
> Porn makes women angry because in a small way, it reduces their power as the gatekeepers to sex. That's why it's hated.


Feel free to chose porn and blame all of it on women. You are really getting us back, I'll tell you. Circular reasoning, blaming women for your own choices! Yeah. I'm hurt that my power as a "gatekeeper"
Is diminished by a guy who chooses porn over me. Doesn't someone have to want you to be upset that you choose porn over them?

I see "loser" written all over this kind of thinking. 

But yeah, a guy shouldn't have to change to find a girl. Staying exactly as they are serves them so well. Talk about stubborn and afraid to get honest with themselves that success requires effort.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> No, it really doesn't make us angry that ugly losers are off the market.


Then why do you insist that they do everything they can to get themselves back on the market?


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> I see "loser" written all over this kind of thinking.


I've been nothing but polite and I hope you can return the same courtesy to me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

You actually think my interest has anything to do with these men? That I personally want these men to be back on the sexual market so I can torture them with rejection, because that's just what us women do to exert our power?

If you can't step outside of your hatred for women, you will never really understand this issue. You will only understand the one side, the side of men who hate women. Not the healthy side, male or female. Just the males who hate females side.

There are other sides to this.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> You actually think my interest has anything to do with these men? That I personally want these men to be back on the sexual market so I can torture them with rejection, because that's just what us women do to exert our power?
> 
> If you can't step outside of your hatred for women, you will never really understand this issue. You will only understand the one side, the side of men who hate women. Not the healthy side, male or female. Just the males who hate females side.
> 
> There are other sides to this.


You are an amazing woman and would not do that.

What I meant was: the last few pages have been about how men addicted to porn need to drop it and get out into the real world. If these men are unwanted, why should they start dating?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

This is one of those "it is what it is" things. The behaviour and the mentality are those of losers. It is my opinion. I don't find quitters attractive nor do I find people who won't take a good hard look at themselves, recognize their deficits and try to do better.

If those are the choices you and your friends make, I would indeed eliminate you from being someone I would consider dating. You make your choices and so do I. Men do the same thing when deciding who they would like to get to know. Reality is. Get on board or not, but don't blame others for that choice. 

Is your world- view serving you? If it is, no need to change. But you sound unhappy and that tends to be a call for action. 

Example: Michael Anthony Hall. Skinny geek, now hunky man. The "Commish": short, pudgy, balding man, now built and attractive. Everyone can make themselves more attractive. I bet even your buds judge women by their appearance. I also bet that there are women you guys would never date in a million years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

But why would you want a loser who has just changed his appearance or clothing or even worked on his conversation skills?

Isn't he still just a porn addicted loser underneath it all?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Forrest Gump's mamma would tell you "A loser is as a loser does. "

Any guy who is addicted to porn will not be welcome in my life. That is a hard boundary for me. I would also write off alcoholics, drug addicts, crooks, Liars, cheaters, people who don't bathe regularly and probably a bunch of other behavioural or emotional issues. 

You seem married to your world- view so I don't see the point in going round and round with you. It isn't a rewarding use of my time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

ntamph said:


> Lol, I'm not a pimp. The ugly girls would rather share a more attractive guy than get his full attention. He's screwed. They're all screwed.
> 
> Porn makes women angry because in a small way, it reduces their power as the gatekeepers to sex. That's why it's hated.


You clearly like your porn and refuse to believe it has a negative effect on you. Maybe so and maybe no but it has affected the way you view women. It's clear in your posts that you struggle with the control that women have when it's comes to sex. 

In cases where it has caused problems in men you blame the men and call them weak and unattractive to women. The men that this thread started out addressing are men who already have a wife and not only that but one that is ready and willing, so your assumption is wrong. There are other things at play here.

Sometimes one may have an addiction happen where others wouldn't. For instance, I can look at porn and don't get drawn in like some others. I can also drink when ever I like and I don't develop any issue with it like some others. You get my meaning.

This isn't about attractiveness or ability to "get laid" it's about an addiction that is growing due to the ease of attaining porn.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I don't know that every guy who ends up messing up their sexual functioning with porn and masturbation are addicted. Some can give up porn easier than masturbation. They might be able to fathom how porn could be harmful but can't understand how masturbation could be. 

They took the message that masturbation is harmless in a way in which it wasn't intended. The backlash against the condemnations of masturbation required a lot of counter- education. Unfortunately people didn't read the fine print. Excess is generally not good for you. Even drinking too much water can be harmful. 

People think of masturbation in a very narrow way. It isn't the same for everyone. People develop their own style and the body comes to expect that style in order to respond. Have people read about guys who masturbate in the prone position? It has been known for a long time that it can cause problems with functioning. It is easy to disregard that style of masturbation as being different so no lessons can be taken from it. "Those guys are different. I masturbate normally. " Ignorance is the culprit.

A lack of solid education is necessary to help kids- and a lot more adults than ever- to make informed decisions. 

The rampant denial is a very strong force. If you add porn the amount of masturbation increases. It only stands to reason that more people will be negatively affected.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

ntamph said:


> Lol, I'm not a pimp. The ugly girls would rather share a more attractive guy than get his full attention. He's screwed. They're all screwed.
> 
> Porn makes women angry because in a small way, it reduces their power as the gatekeepers to sex. That's why it's hated.


Who ever said us women are the gatekeepers to sex?

Have you read any threads on here written by women (such as myself) whom BEG for sex but our SOs would rather look at porn and/or masturbate? 

Seems to me the man is the gatekeeper in our situation.

Two way street. And I'd bet dollars to donuts, there's a lot of men out there who say "I'm too tired honey" when in reality it's "I spent my load on porn instead of you"

Sorry, I think it happens a lot. So it's a tad bit unfair AND insulting to say us women are porn haters because it takes away our "gatekeeper" status.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> I don't know that every guy who ends up messing up their sexual functioning with porn and masturbation are addicted. Some can give up porn easier than masturbation. They might be able to fathom how porn could be harmful but can't understand how masturbation could be.
> 
> They took the message that masturbation is harmless in a way in which it wasn't intended. The backlash against the condemnations of masturbation required a lot of counter- education. Unfortunately people didn't read the fine print. Excess is generally not good for you. Even drinking too much water can be harmful.
> 
> ...


Well said, clipclop.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> Dogman said: The men that this thread started out addressing are men who already have a wife and not only that but one that is ready and willing, so your assumption is wrong. There are other things at play here.


Exactly!

This didn't start out as an anti-porn/masturbation thread. It started out as_ pro-sex,_ and was posted by a woman who is battling because of the lack of sex in her marriage.:scratchhead:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ntamph....We want those friends of yours back in the dating pool because all people deserve good health and good sexual functioning. They are young and don't know yet the full effects of their choices now. We women want our men (husbands, brothers, sons) to be sexually healthy because we care about the world at large and about future generations.

We were young once too and did things we didn't know then would harm us, we all do it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

BTW, excessive masturbation can cause sexual dysfunction in women, too. We'll be hearing more and more about this as time goes on. So please realize ntamph...it isn't a "flaw" that men have, at all. Addiction or the tendency to overindulge is a human trait we all share.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

From the good Dr. Glover:
"Feeling horny should drive you to pursue pu$$y, not porn.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Causes of ED in Younger Men*



Faithful Wife said:


> BTW, excessive masturbation can cause sexual dysfunction in women, too. We'll be hearing more and more about this as time goes on. So please realize ntamph...it isn't a "flaw" that men have, at all. Addiction or the tendency to overindulge is a human trait we all share.


Dated one for 6 months. PIV held no interest for her whatsoever. She could O in under 2 minutes with her toy. Took some time (enjoyable time) to pull off anything manually or orally.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Deejo said:


> From the good Dr. Glover:
> "Feeling horny should drive you to pursue pu$$y, not porn.


This should be in the TAM bible.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

We can't do that trey. Too many guys would think Dr. Glover is "shaming" them.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I'm going to be honest here. When I was young and married the first time(twenties), there were days when I would be so horny and she wasn't around, that I would just take care of things myself. The trouble with that was that sometimes, she would come home and I was like oops. ah sorry. Give me an hour or a half hour. sh!t.
> 
> There were only a very few times I have ever said I was tired because I didn't wait for her. I preferred the verbal beating. I figured it would help me remember the next time she wasn't around when I was ready. But, that was in my twenties. As I got older, I didn't need to do it as badly. I guess it could be equated to what women sometimes go through before menopause. The difference being I've got one shell and she has a clip-full. hahaha


Mine has told me he would try to want me up (I am a SUPER HEAVY sleeper) and caress me, etc. or I would swat him away. Then he'd be turned in, take care of it, then if wake up wanting it and he'd just be like uhhhhhhhhhh

Or when we worked opposite shifts and we would actually get a surprise chance to be together but he'd already taken care of business. 

Thanks for sharing that


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> We can't do that trey. Too many guys would think Dr. Glover is "shaming" them.


If they can accept some of our behaviors and responses have been "trained", you definately want to undo the porn route and take the good doctors advice.

There are probably a dozen other behavior and responses that can be retrained that make a huge difference in the ability for a male to easily obtain sexual relations.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Have you read NMMNG 2ntnuf? It is really very good. I can't do any better than him at explaining this stuff, so I encourage every man to read it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

There are many exercises to do in the book...did you do them? These types of books actually require inner work. Can't just read them, actually have to do the work.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> There are so many different dynamics at work in just telling someone to go out and look for pvssy if you're horny it's just not possible to always take this in the manner it's intended.
> 
> Yeah, you have to work on yourself.....blah blah
> 
> ...


That may be a beautiful thing. Both of you could respectfully help each other along, no one using the other.



2ntnuf said:


> The first time after such a horrible break-up, I guarantee I'm going to be balling my eyes out. I know it. I guarantee I will feel like I betrayed my ex. It's happened before, after the first one. That's not a good way to do things. The woman thought that meant she had a solid "in" with me for a relationship. Sorry, that's not what it means. How do you explain that one? I don't want to.
> 
> I'll wait. Maybe it will happen someday. In the meantime, I can take my time and prepare for it. My mother remarried at 70. Anything is possible. Some things are just much more likely than others.


If you want to have sexual relations, you have to do the things which make it more likely.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"but I am not attractive to the women I am attracted to."


I hear a lot of men saying this. I feel that when a man says this, he is usually only placing value on a woman's looks, and therefore, he is attempting to get with women who are "only hot" and have no other value to the guy. Anytime this is true, the woman will not be into that. Dr. Glover says that a woman being hot is absolutely not a good reason for a man to have interest in her. Do you get that and why he says that?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Truthfully, no. I have not and will not probably for another six months to a year. More things than you realize have to come together before I can even do that.
> 
> Too many things were blown apart for me to list. I'm not unattractive, but I am not attractive to the women I am attracted to. Does that make sense? I feel like it doesn't when I read it.


You may need to take what you can get while you work on being attractive to the ones you want to be attractive too.

Having a positive and successful sex life will add immensly to your swag and your confidence.

Do they have other qualities which attract you other than their looks?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> "but I am not attractive to the women I am attracted to."
> 
> 
> I hear a lot of men saying this. I feel that when a man says this, he is usually only placing value on a woman's looks, and therefore, he is attempting to get with women who are "only hot" and have no other value to the guy. Anytime this is true, the woman will not be into that. Dr. Glover says that a woman being hot is absolutely not a good reason for a man to have interest in her. Do you get that and why he says that?


That was my assumption as well.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> She will obviously notice that my conversation is less on the side of finding out who she is and more about being silly and making her laugh. Sometimes, that's good, but not too much. I tend to use it as a defense mechanism to drive away, but not to lose a friend completely.
> 
> I tell you this. What you think I consider hot and what I actually do consider hot are probably two very different things. If you want to see what I mean, I will let you. I thought both of my wives were hot for different reasons.
> 
> I do not have the resources to find the quality of woman I would like. That means, this imaginary person is within reach if I do my part and things fall into place for me. In the mean time, "ain't no woman I want going to want me right now".


Right but you can still obtain sexual partners who will boost your esteem quite a bit, and you can do the same for them. It will help you and speed up your quest for what you are looking for.



2ntnuf said:


> Also, physical appearance is quite important to a man's sexual attraction.  Realistic ideas of what that woman looks like is, I think, what you might be trying to get at. Sorry, we all have our boundaries.


Physical appearance is definately a large component in physical attraction.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

This is what I'm talking about 2ntnuf:

Demystifying Beautiful Women - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group

From the article:

I’ve often stated that talking to a woman just because she is hot is the worst possible reason for talking to a woman. Chasing beauty turns attractive women into sexual celebrities – celebrities who seem untouchable to the average guy. It also makes a lot of dubious assumptions about a woman based purely on her looks – that she’ll be fun, good in bed, interesting to talk to, etc. 

Here is what you do to yourself when you focus primarily on physical attributes of beauty in women. First, your anxiety typically prevents you from approaching. Second, if you do approach, you do it nervously and awkwardly. Finally, since you have already turned the woman into a sexual celebrity, you will do anything to get her approval. This kind of approval seeking is a total turn-off for women.

Most guys hate that good looking women seem to have all the power, but it is men who give them that power! Whenever you are feeling victimized by the female gender, it is you who have turned yourself into a victim.

With that said, I also believe that you should date women you find attractive. This isn’t a contradiction. What I mean is that in a healthy, mature male, attraction involves much more than just how a woman looks in her jeans or how big her boobies are.

A healthy guy notices a woman’s physical appearance but doesn’t make assumptions about her based purely on her looks. He also knows that good genetic inheritance includes intelligence, creativity and emotional stability.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Well, that is a different way of looking at it. I hadn't thought of it that way. I suppose it's a kind of networking in a sense. Just seems like, why would I want everyone to know the most intimate things about me.
> 
> Don't you women tell me you don't talk.  I know you do. It just is a bit of a different code language. hahaha


It works. It'll change your perception about the entire thing including yourself.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> This is what I'm talking about 2ntnuf:
> 
> Demystifying Beautiful Women - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group
> 
> ...


Pedastalize them from the start and you are at a huge deficit. In many cases a deficit which cannot be overcome.



Faithful Wife said:


> Here is what you do to yourself when you focus primarily on physical attributes of beauty in women. First, your anxiety typically prevents you from approaching. Second, if you do approach, you do it nervously and awkwardly. Finally, since you have already turned the woman into a sexual celebrity, you will do anything to get her approval. This kind of approval seeking is a total turn-off for women.


True.



Faithful Wife said:


> Most guys hate that good looking women seem to have all the power, but it is men who give them that power! Whenever you are feeling victimized by the female gender, it is you who have turned yourself into a victim.


How to unvictimize yourself? But I agree with you here. The male turned himself into the victim who is at the wims of all of these women. It's not an attractive look.



Faithful Wife said:


> With that said, I also believe that you should date women you find attractive. This isn’t a contradiction. What I mean is that in a healthy, mature male, attraction involves much more than just how a woman looks in her jeans or how big her boobies are.


Agree.



Faithful Wife said:


> A healthy guy notices a woman’s physical appearance but doesn’t make assumptions about her based purely on her looks. He also knows that good genetic inheritance includes intelligence, creativity and emotional stability.


Good convo.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

trey...the parts you quoted were from the article by Dr. Glover, I didn't write them.

But I copied them here to make the point I had brought up to 2ntnuf on the last page.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Well, that is a different way of looking at it. I hadn't thought of it that way. I suppose it's a kind of networking in a sense. Just seems like, why would I want everyone to know the most intimate things about me.
> 
> Don't you women tell me you don't talk.  I know you do. It just is a bit of a different code language. hahaha


Just imagine, what percentage of your self confidence is a man is diminished by being in a sexless position over a prolonged period of time. It can be a huge percentage.

And even if you are able to muster up some confidence, through focused anger, that's not really an attractive look.

An attractive man is usually going to appear to not have a "lack" of. That's why I was saying it's better to get "some" tail than "no" tail, if currently you aren't getting what you want to get.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

I think I have to read this Doctor Glover.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Sorry, this was to Faithful Wife's post and some of what she was saying. I really need to quote.
> 
> Yes, I understand. It's what I thought you might see to some extent. I consider many factors and this is partly why I don't want to just go out and find some willing body. I don't want to feel that "fog" just because of sex. I know it happens and it's tough to get past until we come to realize that person is not what we wanted and then we both wasted our time. I've done it. It was stupid because she was hurt more than me and I did not like that at all. She was a good woman, just not for me. So, I want to be more certain before I get into that. Hence, less opportunity for sex, but more opportunity for a quality relationship, even if it doesn't work out.
> 
> I would never even consider a super model as possible dating material. I just realize my true potential is not ever going to be there. That's realistic. It's not flagellation.


LOL.

Super model can be dating material, if you know they are going to be very materialistic and probably cheat.

I actually had a good FWB situation... It was a lady we both got along, the sex wasn't super sonic, but was very good. She enjoyed the time too.

And I cut it short, thinking if I came across the woman I want to be with, that I didn't want to be tied up. That was 3 years ago, in hindsite I should've kept that going as long as I could. Life would be so much better.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

treyvion said:


> LOL.
> 
> Super model can be dating material, if you know they are going to be very materialistic and probably cheat.
> 
> ...


What I learned going through the situation. Was there is something wierd about the kharma of it. If you are in a situation or having sex, you will have other options.

If you are not in a situation and sexless, your options will be more limited.

Just by you removing the "lack" of, gives you options. It changes your viewpoint which is powerful.

Your not looking at it like a starving man...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Yes. This is very true and I know it. I'm not willing to be that starving man, yet. It hurts too much yet. I can't let myself do it, yet. That doesn't mean I'm not interested or horny. It means I don't think I can handle my own emotions yet. I may well be able, but I'm too concerned yet. Still having dreams about the one I really love is not a good sign. I still miss her and probably always will. Maybe it's stupid, but I can't help that. Sometimes the brain knows better than the heart and the heart won't listen.


If your not with her, you gotta move on. Sometimes it perks their interest to see you have something else going on. Especially if it's within her competitive environment.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Simply impossible for me at the moment. I have to do a whole bunch of work just to be in that environment and I don't believe I could ever be happy with her now. I'm torn in two. That's a tough situation.
> 
> I will just have to do what I can and move slowly forward. Learn as much as I can. Believe me, what I've learned here has helped me in just plain everyday relationships. It's helped much more than just trying to find a new partner.
> 
> Thanks Trey.


LOL. I know exactly what you are talking about.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

treyvion said:


> LOL. I know exactly what you are talking about.


Let me ask you. Is buckling down and putting yourself back in that environment where you could date competitive females to her, is that going to be a good thing for you as a person, outside of women? 

If so, you need to get it done.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

treyvion said:


> LOL. I know exactly what you are talking about.





2ntnuf said:


> In the same category? Yeah. There were a bunch of nice women there. Would have loved to date almost any one of them. Yeah, I'm trying. It will be a long time, though. I'm struggling to work through my options.
> 
> I'm not thinking of all the one's at the bar. There was a different set of folks we knew. Many of them were good people. I can't think of anyone I really didn't like. Maybe some with different opinions and not really compatible. That's okay, though.


You need to get back there.


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