# Had another talk last night



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

This is probably really only our second conversation about our sex life that i feel we actually communicated (sad aint it?). I more or less told her that I'd been unhappy with our sex life for the last 15 years. I think that hit her like a hammer when i actually put it like that. I also let her know that I wanted to see some of the promises she's made put into action (doctors visits, etc). 

She told me she needed me to stop taking it so personally when she says no, which I actually agree with. I just wish it were as easy done as said.

Good communication, i think. I finally actually feel like maybe she is understanding where I'm coming from.

The thing that really floored me--I was trying to get info out of her on what kinds of things about me she wants improved, etc. She actually said that she has always been perfectly happy with our marriage. I'm still trying to reconcile that with how unhappy I've been, and how she could have not picked up on it.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> This is probably really only our second conversation about our sex life that i feel we actually communicated (sad aint it?). I more or less told her that I'd been unhappy with our sex life for the last 15 years. I think that hit her like a hammer when i actually put it like that. I also let her know that I wanted to see some of the promises she's made put into action (doctors visits, etc).
> 
> She told me she needed me to stop taking it so personally when she says no, which I actually agree with. I just wish it were as easy done as said.
> 
> ...


She's been in a fog that's prevented her from picking up on it.

I'm not sure I'd be able to not take frequent rejection personally...I mean, who else is being rejected?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I do have a tendency to handle the rejection poorly, and it's gotten worse over the years. I get angry, withdraw, more passive aggressive BS. She says that she's going to follow up with the doctors, and she's agreed to go to MC in a few months after some financial issues clear up. I do need to handle it better, because me sitting around stewing isn't going to help anything, and then it spills over on my kids.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

And a 15 year fog? I'm awesome, but I'm not THAT awesome.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> I do have a tendency to handle the rejection poorly, and it's gotten worse over the years. I get angry, withdraw, more passive aggressive BS. She says that she's going to follow up with the doctors, and she's agreed to go to MC in a few months after some financial issues clear up. I do need to handle it better, because me sitting around stewing isn't going to help anything, and then it spills over on my kids.


Yeah, sounds like you are handling the sting badly and need to do better, but she has to realize that the sting is going to be there regardless of whether you bury your feelings or not.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think you should talk again tonight, and the next night, and however many nights in a row it takes for her to understand that you aren't just "whining" about rejection. You can take action and stop doing anything that makes your kids suffer or see your rejected state....BUT....lack of sexual fulfillment in marriage CAUSES DIVORCE. Until she really understands that, she won't stop trying to assign blame for how it is affecting you.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> And a 15 year fog? I'm awesome, but I'm not THAT awesome.


Oh sure you are. If she feels like she is getting her needs filled, and really, it's not all that hard to fill a womans needs if you just pay attention, but if you have been, she likely feels like since her needs continue to be met, then yours must be as well.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Yeah, sounds like you are handling the sting badly and need to do better, but she has to realize that the sting is going to be there regardless of whether you bury your feelings or not.


Right? That's pretty much what I told her also. Quite a little vicious circle we've created for ourselves.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think you should talk again tonight, and the next night, and however many nights in a row it takes for her to understand that you aren't just "whining" about rejection. You can take action and stop doing anything that makes your kids suffer or see your rejected state....BUT....lack of sexual fulfillment in marriage CAUSES DIVORCE. Until she really understands that, she won't stop trying to assign blame for how it is affecting you.


Oddly enough, I didn't have to mention divorce, her mind leapt right to it on her own. I didn't enjoy the pain that caused, but I did feel like that actually made some impact on her.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Point was, stop ignoring the subject and bring it up over and over if necessary.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Right? That's pretty much what I told her also. Quite a little vicious circle we've created for ourselves.


The thing that always rubs me the wrong way when I hear "Don't take it so personally" is that it seems to me as if the other person is trying to absolve themselves of any responsibility for the rejection, and put it on the rejected. As soon as you stop taking it personally, it means you no longer care about what it is that they are rejecting, and in this case, it means you no longer care about the intimate sexual connection...that is death to a marriage.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Point was, stop ignoring the subject and bring it up over and over if necessary.


You're right. I bear (bear--get it?) a lot of the responsibility for letting it drag out as long as it has because I have a hard time communicating uncomfortable subjects. It took years for me to reach my breaking point a few months ago where I brought it up seriously the first time. I mean, I'd brought it up many times over the years, but more of just in a "gosh, i really wish we could have more sex" kind of way. Basically I was a wimp. 

I did a better job of it last night than I did the first time, so yes, I think you're right FW. I need to keep after it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

One of my biggest regrets in my first marriage is that I simply didn't learn how to communicate with him effectively. I was mad and frustrated but didn't say it to him in a way he could actually "hear me". That's on me.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Do you know in your heart that sex is not love is not sex? It can be easy to confuse things, and thus when she rejects you it feels very very personal, as if she does not love you. As if she is rejecting your love for her.

Of course sex is an important part of a loving relationship. Just don't measure love by sex.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Thor said:


> Do you know in your heart that sex is not love is not sex? It can be easy to confuse things, and thus when she rejects you it feels very very personal, as if she does not love you. As if she is rejecting your love for her.
> 
> Of course sex is an important part of a loving relationship. Just don't measure love by sex.


As I told my wife--what I know, and what I feel aren't always in alignment.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> One of my biggest regrets in my first marriage is that I simply didn't learn how to communicate with him effectively. I was mad and frustrated but didn't say it to him in a way he could actually "hear me". That's on me.


I got more of a lift and sense of satisfaction after that conversation than I got from the last several sexual encounters. Weird, huh?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Disagree. If she loves you, she'll want to have sex with you. If nothing else, to make you happy.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Disagree. If she loves you, she'll want to have sex with you. If nothing else, to make you happy.


She's willing to work on it. That's all I'm asking for now. I'm not going to expect her to act like we're 19 again overnight, and honestly I have some resentment issues I need to get over myself before we could even get to that stage. 

If my wife had tried initiating during the week leading up to last night, I'd have turned her down flat. I still loved her, but I didn't want to have sex with HER at that point because of my own anger.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Well, if you want to listen to WOE tell it, then apparently your wife doesn't love you, Fozzy. 

Apparently that is true in his case, too.


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## bornin73guy (Oct 7, 2013)

I've had a talk with my wife several times. She kind of thinks I'm kidding and just want sex. She really doesn't get it at all. We've been married 10+ years and does not give oral, just lays there, untrimmed and we have sex maybe once every 5 weeks.

I wish you luck in your quest!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Thor said:


> Do you know in your heart that sex is not love is not sex? It can be easy to confuse things, and thus when she rejects you it feels very very personal, as if she does not love you. As if she is rejecting your love for her.
> 
> Of course sex is an important part of a loving relationship. Just don't measure love by sex.


I call BS on this one. If my wife loves me she will want sex with me. I got tired of the rate me and Mrs. Conan were having sex and I started communicating my passion and desire for sex with her more often. Through talking and arguing sometimes, I discovered she sometimes got offended by my advances.
She told me it made her feel "like she had to do it, like an expected chore"! I literally blew a fuse at her confession! I said "Oh sh!t! Your husband is into you and desires you and thinks your hot and only wants to be with you in a sexual way! What abuse! What a crime!" Sometimes we need to retrain our minds because we may have picked up crappy thought processes.
When I spoke back to her what her rejection of me really sounded like, she did a 180! She needed to understand that the man she loves needs to have sex and that he chose her! Other parts of our marriage are also improving thanks to a lot more communication and sex.
She has found quite a lot of new interests in the bedroom, and a lot more confidence!
People don't need to settle. I hope OP can get his wife on board with the fact that his motor is running for her and it is killing him to just let it idle.
Best wishes!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

If you loved me you would...

...take out the trash without being asked.

...give me lots of money.

...listen to all my stories about work people.

...do a handstand, even though you have no training in that.

...be exactly what I want you to be, when I want you to be it.

Do ANY of those sentences ring true?

Neither does...

If you loved me you would have sex with me.

Love does not automatically spark desire. it does for some people. But not for everyone.

If Fozzy requires sex in his marriage, he needs to communicate this requirement to his wife. She can still be in love with him and have no desire for sex. Or ... she may take his requirement to heart, and find her desire for him again.


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## pierrematoe (Sep 6, 2013)

Perhaps she loves him and has some desire for him but just can't get aroused enough to actually have sex. That's my wife's problem which is not resolved and is the subject of many discussions, arguments and tension right now.

The key is communication in a positive way. Fozzy must communicate


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> If you loved me you would...
> 
> ...take out the trash without being asked.
> 
> ...


I did mention the communication part of the equation and not requiring sex from your spouse is too alien for me to comment on. If someone doesn't want sex, don't get married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hawkeye (Oct 6, 2012)

God, this sounds like the exact same situation I found myself in for too many years. About a year ago we had another of our dozens of talks and I finally brought up the specter of divorce. I don't know if that's what did it, but the sex has been a million times better for more than a year now. It took an eternity, but we finally made big progress.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

hawkeye said:


> God, this sounds like the exact same situation I found myself in for too many years. About a year ago we had another of our dozens of talks and I finally brought up the specter of divorce. I don't know if that's what did it, but the sex has been a million times better for more than a year now. It took an eternity, but we finally made big progress.


I hear ya. Did not bring up D but had to let her know, lovingly, that I was a hot blooded man and I needed sex and she was who I chose to be hot with.
I think sometimes a spouse does need it communicated to them just how desperately important sex or any other aspect of marriage really is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hawkeye (Oct 6, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I hear ya. Did not bring up D but had to let her know, lovingly, that I was a hot blooded man and I needed sex and she was who I chose to be hot with.
> I think sometimes a spouse does need it communicated to them just how desperately important sex or any other aspect of marriage really is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, I got to the point where I felt like I had no choice. We literally had dozens of these talks and each time I'd think that maaaaybe this was the one to get through. But things would almost instantly go back to normal afterwards. And in retrospect, I was probably being way too much of a nice guy about it. It was when things were getting close to the ten year point that i finally woke up and said "this needs to end now." I told her I wasn't going to do another ten years of this, either she works on it or else. She finally worked on it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ignore Marie. She uses passive agressive jabs and ad hominems to sway arguments in her favor. 

For the record, the ad hominem she used on me is false. My wife and I have sex about 2x a week on average. My issue is that I can't easily initiate it, but she initiates often.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I am glad to hear it. There is always something spouses can do for each other. There are many things psychologically, mentally, and even physically to improve your sex life. It is definitely worth the effort!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lol! 

There's no "argument" here, WOE. There are different people with different opinions.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Hawkeye...would you mind posting over on this thread;

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...-now-how-i-get-my-husband-trust-me-again.html

If you go to the very last page, someone was asking if there were any examples of people on TAM who had finally gotten to the point of bringing up divorce, and then saw improvement in their marriage/sex life. You seem like an example of that, if I am reading you correctly.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Lol!
> 
> There's no "argument" here, WOE. There are different people with different opinions.


The problem with separating the two (love and sex) is that it leads to thinking that minimizes the issue. It devalues sex. Thor's post specifically devalued sex as a component of love, and you're right I just have a different opinion. That's certainly no reason for you to attack me personally and bringing my wife's love into the discussion. Especially by making false assertions about her. Hey, if love is not sex and sex is not love then why not just get it someplace else. You can still love your spouse and get the sex elsewhere.

And it's WOM.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

When we get married we make a vow, a promise to one other person that they will be our sole lover and every sexual experience we have for the rest of.our lives will be at their hand.

One person. How can one NOT take it personally when one is constantly rejected, shot down and made light of? 

Fozzy - I have a few friends that have resolved their disparities by scheduling sex at the beginning of each week. Say you guys are able to agree on 2x week, you can both deal with that. Let her pick the two days. However she also must understand the importance of following through. 

Its a vulnerable thing to initiate sex. We really open ourselves up to be hurt when we do this. Being rejected hurts. Feeling someone doesn't desire you or want to be with you hurts. 

I hope she did really hear you. And, like I'm finding at my house, it is rash to make an effort for a litttle while and then slip back into old patterns. You are going to have to keep raising this issue.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The problem with separating the two (love and sex) is that it leads to thinking that minimizes the issue. It devalues sex. Thor's post specifically devalued sex as a component of love, and you're right I just have a different opinion. That's certainly no reason for you to attack me personally and bringing my wife's love into the discussion. Especially by making false assertions about her. Hey, if love is not sex and sex is not love then why not just get it someplace else. You can still love your spouse and get the sex elsewhere.
> 
> And it's WOM.


I think my post was misunderstood.

Just because she gives sex does not mean she loves you. Just because she gives sex more frequently does not mean she loves you more. Just because she turns you down does not mean she does not love you.

And the flip side is that she can love you but not want sex right now.

Many men make the mistake of equating sex and love. That is, when a woman gives sex it must mean she loves him. And thus when she rejects sex he takes it as a message she does not love him.

This is a No More Mr. Nice Guy thing, and I believe the OP is a Nice Guy.

Frequent rejection does mean there is a problem in the relationship. It may mean she feels no love, or she does not feel a sexual attraction (more of a brother/sister relationship perhaps). It may mean there is a breakdown in dynamics which has caused resentments. It may mean she has an unhealthy mindset about sex (abused as a child, overly religious toxic shame in her upbringing, etc). It may mean he needs to take a bath more often.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

WOM, sorry...not WOE...that wasn't an intentional mis-spell, I am just not paying good attention when I type sometimes.

You said: "That's certainly no reason for you to attack me personally and bringing my wife's love into the discussion."

Ok but...to my way of reading it, you totally attacked Fozzy's wife by suggesting she doesn't love him. I don't know why you did that. It was like...whaaaa??? There is nowhere that he said she doesn't love him, yet your posited that "if she loved him, then..." and IMO, that simply isn't a true statement to make. 

So then I put it back on you...and yes you have reminded me that I have your story wrong (sorry about that). Your wife initiates, but she doesn't do it in a way that you feel she really wants sex, so you turn it down a lot. Ok, got it. But since you feel she doesn't really want sex with you and rejects you inwardly even though she initiates outwardly...then doesn't it make sense that I turned the same logic back on you? "Since you know your wife isn't into you and is only initiating because she knows you will leave her eventually if she doesn't...doesn't that mean she doesn't love you?"

To me - those are two similar comparisons.

The reality is that I just thought it was mean of you to suggest to Fozzy that his wife doesn't love him. 

But you are right...instead of turning it back on you I should have just said "that was mean, WOM".

You said: "Hey, if love is not sex and sex is not love then why not just get it someplace else. You can still love your spouse and get the sex elsewhere."

Um...lots of people do exactly that. What is your point with this?

Love is not sex and sex is not love = true statement, IMO.

For some they are the same or related or co-mingled. For others, not. If it is for you, great. That doesn't have anything to do with Fozzy's wife, though. You can't speak for her with any authority.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MissScarlett said:


> When we get married we make a vow, a promise to one other person that they will be our sole lover and every sexual experience we have for the rest of.our lives will be at their hand.
> 
> One person. How can one NOT take it personally when one is constantly rejected, shot down and made light of?


I was rejected for many years, and yes I took it personally. I agree with the basic ideas of 1 Corinthians 7, which matches our vows To Have and To Hold. We promise to have a sexual relationship with our spouse.

Rejection in isolation should be no big deal. Do you feel like chicken for dinner? No. OK, we'll do something else. OP said he takes it very personally when rejected, which can set up a negative dynamic with his wife. His reaction should be more of being ok and moving on to something else. His self worth should not be tied to whether she has sex with him.

In fact, he should have the attitude that he is doing her a favor having sex with her.

The problem is the long term repeated rejections from a spouse. There is a big underlying issue of some sort which needs to be fixed.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Thor said:


> I think my post was misunderstood.
> 
> Just because she gives sex does not mean she loves you. Just because she gives sex more frequently does not mean she loves you more. Just because she turns you down does not mean she does not love you.
> 
> ...


about a third of the way through NMMNG now.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yay! Love that book.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

It was the last of the "major" books for me to try. honestly the website turned me off for a while. lots of straight up misogyny going on over there. The book's been very good so far though.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I handed a copy of it to my (momma's boy) son when he was 18.

And I adjusted my behavior toward him, stopped mommy-ing him so much (it was really too much...and I could see it possibly harming his adult male life). 

Anyway, to get the most out of it, do the exercises or SOME kind of exercises that seem helpful to you. It is the inner work that creates positive changes, not the reading.

Have you gotten to the sex stuff yet?

Over on ed's "breast play" thread, I said some things that you will recognize if you have gotten that far in the book.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

WOM,
100 percent agree with your post below. 

Real love is about making good faith efforts to please and to avoid displeasing your partner.

That said, I think perhaps that Fozzy could combine finesse, kindness and aggression by insisting on a few things:
- First, that his wife be brutally honest about turn ons and turn offs in and out the bedroom. 
- Next that she acknowledge a marriage is predicated on prioritizing your partners core needs especially when they differ from your own.
- Prioritization is gauged by 'effort'. She is responsible for learning about 'responsive desire'. If she doesn't like her body it is her responsibility to work on acceptance or improvement. 

Last, she is carefully avoiding any type of reciprocity expectation by saying she is perfectly happy with the marriage. She doesn't want to 'ask' Fozzy to change anything he does because she doesn't want to 'be asked' to change anything she does. 

As for rejection, there is a huge difference between declining sex on a given evening and making it clear that you would rather not have sex with your spouse. The former is not very hurtful to an emotionally healthy partner, the latter is toxic. 

As for frequency and initiation, find a mutually agreeable frequency that she will commit to for 3 months. And insist that she initiate half the time. And be firm on this point, if she doesn't stick to the planned frequency, you intend to insist on a fixed schedule. But tell her that the real point of having a reasonable frequency is so that you can both learn how to make it good for her. Because honestly, right now it isn't. I don't care how hard she says she comes every time you have sex, overall she doesn't really enjoy it. And that is the reason for her engaging in a determined pattern of avoidance. 


RIGHT][/RIGHT]


WorkingOnMe said:


> Disagree. If she loves you, she'll want to have sex with you. If nothing else, to make you happy.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> I got more of a lift and sense of satisfaction after that conversation than I got from the last several sexual encounters. Weird, huh?


It's not weird at all. It's called intimacy, emotional intimacy. You shared your real thoughts and feelings with her. My guess is your wife probably got more of a lift from that conversation than she had from the last several sexual encounters, too. That's communication. You've made a start. Keep talking, and listening.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

hawkeye said:


> God, this sounds like the exact same situation I found myself in for too many years. About a year ago we had another of our dozens of talks and I finally brought up the specter of divorce. I don't know if that's what did it, but the sex has been a million times better for more than a year now. It took an eternity, but we finally made big progress.


THANK YOU HAWKEYE!!- All you spouses out there that are saying you can't communicate, are never or very rarely getting laid, living a sad existence sexually. Try this on for size, say it, mean it, follow through.

"Honey, let me explain something, and I need you to listen, please.
The years have been passing with simply way too much rejection of me physically. Men are wired very differently from woman, and you are either naive as to men and the absolute need for sex on many different levels, or you are aware and simply cant find it with in you to care about making me feel wanted, desired, and appreciated as a man, and husband. I am not going to beg, I am not going to wait. Should there be things I can do to make you desire me more on an emotional, or physical level, you need to communicate them to me now. If you think you can just claim to have a low drive and not show me physical love, if you can not make that part of my life better, then I have no choice but to move on from this relationship. I will not live like this any longer."

Be ready to serve divorce papers if need be. Get what you want in life. You either turn the head of your selfish spouse and change starts from that moment forward, or you rid yourself of one lame ass existence.
And yes, sex is that important. If you do not think so, you are not doing it right. 


Hawkeye- your divorce statement woke her ass up. Cheers!


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Most women don't understand the depth of rejection that happens when they withhold intimacy from their man. Here is a great article on the subject (part I and part II):

The Dennis Prager Show

The Dennis Prager Show


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## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Funny how it "hits them like a ton of bricks" and "I had no idea you were unhappy". Because happy people can go on for weeks without exchanging a word.


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## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

romantic_guy said:


> Most women don't understand the depth of rejection that happens when they withhold intimacy from their man. Here is a great article on the subject (part I and part II):
> 
> The Dennis Prager Show
> 
> The Dennis Prager Show



Registered here just to say great links. Now to figure out how to send it to my wife.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> Oddly enough, I didn't have to mention divorce, her mind leapt right to it on her own. I didn't enjoy the pain that caused, but I did feel like that actually made some impact on her.


I totally see this happening. It sucks that it had to be this way but it is telling that, when it came down to her stability and enjoyment being jeapordized, she found the wherewithal to change, isn't it?

Unfortunately, I've seen this before - many times. I don't buy the line that if she's happy she's likely to assume you're equally happy. It's more likely she's one of those people who prioritizes herself and (to a greater or lesser extent) will act in a way that maximizes her enjoyment and utility.

This brings to mind a conversation I had on another forum. The gist was a lady noted her husband was attentive to her, but she hadn't felt up to having much sex for some time. So, her husband was starting to pull back and do less. This was bothering her, and she was seeking advice.

I advised her husband seemed to feel used - he was bothered by what appeared to be an imbalance in the relationship. He was tired of doing for her and having his own needs ignored. I suggested she do something about her lack of sex drive (she seemed unwilling to do so). I also suggested she consider expecting less of her husband in the meantime, so at least the imbalance would be addressed (if not the sex issue).

Her response was "I don't see how that helps *me*". Amazing how some people can be like that, isn't it?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Last, she is carefully avoiding any type of reciprocity expectation by saying she is perfectly happy with the marriage. She doesn't want to 'ask' Fozzy to change anything he does because she doesn't want to 'be asked' to change anything she does.


That is quite brilliant.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Thor said:


> That is quite brilliant.


The whole post was, actually.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Disagree. If she loves you, she'll want to have sex with you. If nothing else, to make you happy.


Well . . . if she loves you she'll be happy to have sex with you, but that doesn't mean she'll want to. 

It might be a small distinction for some men, but for others, it's a deal breaker.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

romantic_guy said:


> Most women don't understand the depth of rejection that happens when they withhold intimacy from their man. Here is a great article on the subject (part I and part II):
> 
> The Dennis Prager Show
> 
> The Dennis Prager Show


This is good stuff.:smthumbup:

edit: emailed this to her. We'll see what kind of drama that stirs up.


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## Coach8 (Jun 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> You're right. I bear (bear--get it?) a lot of the responsibility for letting it drag out as long as it has because I have a hard time communicating uncomfortable subjects. It took years for me to reach my breaking point a few months ago where I brought it up seriously the first time. I mean, I'd brought it up many times over the years, but more of just in a "gosh, i really wish we could have more sex" kind of way. Basically I was a wimp.
> 
> I did a better job of it last night than I did the first time, so yes, I think you're right FW. I need to keep after it.


It took me 8 years to start communicating better. I wish I would have started sooner.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

My wife has told me many times I need to not take it personally when she rejects me. I have sometimes wished I could do this for my own sake because of the damage it does to me. But I also agree with others who say that this is just another way of saying this really just "your problem". If only you wouldn't make such a big deal out of it, we'd be fine. You could apply this logic to so many things-- If only you didn't make such a big deal out of my banging prostitutes, we'd be fine-- to see how hollow it is. It is not OK for her to try to tell you that your emotions are wrong. It does not make the pain go away and it is not a solution to the problem.


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## jac70 (Sep 7, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> My wife has told me many times I need to not take it personally when she rejects me. I have sometimes wished I could do this for my own sake because of the damage it does to me. But I also agree with others who say that this is just another way of saying this really just "your problem". If only you wouldn't make such a big deal out of it, we'd be fine. You could apply this logic to so many things-- If only you didn't make such a big deal out of my banging prostitutes, we'd be fine-- to see how hollow it is. It is not OK for her to try to tell you that your emotions are wrong. It does not make the pain go away and it is not a solution to the problem.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> I call BS on this one. If my wife loves me she will want sex with me. I got tired of the rate me and Mrs. Conan were having sex and I started communicating my passion and desire for sex with her more often. Through talking and arguing sometimes, I discovered she sometimes got offended by my advances.
> She told me it made her feel "like she had to do it, like an expected chore"! I literally blew a fuse at her confession! I said "Oh sh!t! Your husband is into you and desires you and thinks your hot and only wants to be with you in a sexual way! What abuse! What a crime!" Sometimes we need to retrain our minds because we may have picked up crappy thought processes.
> When I spoke back to her what her rejection of me really sounded like, she did a 180! She needed to understand that the man she loves needs to have sex and that he chose her! Other parts of our marriage are also improving thanks to a lot more communication and sex.
> She has found quite a lot of new interests in the bedroom, and a lot more confidence!
> ...


I don't disagree with most of what you posted except that sex is not associated with love for many women. That is not the case for men. It is clear that the majority of men feel that their love is returned when the woman wants to have sex with them..

When I'm exhausted, I can have sex but I can't shake the feeling of exhaustion. I also can't orgasm. I don't feel angry nor do I feel like getting it over with. I need a lot of affection so I'm getting what I need need too. 

My husband gets exhausted too but it does not effect his ability to have sex and orgasm. It's probably a gender based difference. I am sure it is not so with all men and women. 

I've read about it in many relationship books. I think it is in His Needs Her Needs. The reason I mention this is that approaching it as a reciprocal lack of understanding may work. 

I can't offer any suggestions about how to approach it though.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Definitely coming from two different planes of awareness with regards to understanding the issue. I don't think either one of us really has a grasp on the other. I'm not even positive she has a grasp on her own reasons.

She did make a point during our talk to reinforce that she does NOT want me to stop initiating, just try to be ok with getting turned down. Kind of upset me at the time, because in my mind it was almost "keep setting yourself up for disaster". I'm trying hard to view it as evidence that she's not just checking out and is willing to work with me.

OTOH, it might just be that she wants me to be available when SHE wants it, and be ok with the status quo.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Maybe you should tell your kids to keep touching the hot stove even though it burns them because once in a while it won't be hot and it will turn out ok.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

romantic_guy said:


> Most women don't understand the depth of rejection that happens when they withhold intimacy from their man. Here is a great article on the subject (part I and part II):
> 
> The Dennis Prager Show
> 
> The Dennis Prager Show


I don't think Dennis Prager has this right. No one responds positively to threats of D. People have a tendency to resist threats by showing their autonomy. 

I'm not sure what he means by his statements relative to giving her body. It makes me picture a decerebrate body going through the motions or dead fish duty sex. If I'm reading the posts from so many unhappy men correctly, it sounds like they want their partner to be fully present and desiring sex.

Can't do that without a willing brain and a responsive body. I may be too pedantic but perhaps I am thinking like some women? I'm not sure.

I'll have to read the posts over again to see who sent this link to his wife. My suggestion is not to fight over it if her reaction is negative. Find out if she is reacting negatively to the same parts I did. 
*it was Fozzy*

If you feel comfortable with what I said, perhaps you can let her know that you are not threatening D. Also, you don't want her to hand over her body like a dead fish. Or something like that. You really want her to understand that your wanting sex is not be what she thinks it is, no?.

If I understand what you posted, it seems that you want her to know that her incredulity is not uncommon for women. However, your feelings of needing to be desired by her in order to feel her love are sincere and very common for men in love


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## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> ......
> 
> If I understand what you posted, it seems that you want her to know that her incredulity is not uncommon for women. However, your feelings of needing to be desired by her in order to feel her love are sincere and very common for men in love


:iagree:

Very true (for me at least).


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Fozzy said:


> Definitely coming from two different planes of awareness with regards to understanding the issue. I don't think either one of us really has a grasp on the other. I'm not even positive she has a grasp on her own reasons.
> 
> She did make a point during our talk to reinforce that she does NOT want me to stop initiating, just try to be ok with getting turned down. Kind of upset me at the time, because in my mind it was almost "keep setting yourself up for disaster". I'm trying hard to view it as evidence that she's not just checking out and is willing to work with me.
> 
> OTOH, it might just be that she wants me to be available when SHE wants it, and be ok with the status quo.


Did you tell her that her refusals are painful? That saying she does not want you to stop initiating and not being more receptive seems to set you up for more pain? 

If you didn't say it why? Be real, tell her most of what in on your mind. It's important that you don't hide yourself. Even if she does not accept what you say, you are revealing who you are. That's good relationship skills. You put it out there.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Definitely coming from two different planes of awareness with regards to understanding the issue. I don't think either one of us really has a grasp on the other. I'm not even positive she has a grasp on her own reasons.
> 
> She did make a point during our talk to reinforce that she does NOT want me to stop initiating, just try to be ok with getting turned down. Kind of upset me at the time, because in my mind it was almost "keep setting yourself up for disaster". I'm trying hard to view it as evidence that she's not just checking out and is willing to work with me.
> 
> OTOH, it might just be that she wants me to be available when SHE wants it, and be ok with the status quo.


I'm sure it doesn't seem fair, but if she has responsive desire, which a LOT of women do, you do have to keep initiating and getting things started. It's true she won't say yes every time, but if you don't initiate, desire for sex won't come to her mind at all, and then you'll miss the times that she could have become aroused after you initiated.

This is a stupid analogy, but think of it as an intermittent electrical problem. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But it definitely won't work if you don't try it at all.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Did you tell her that her refusals are painful? That saying she does not want you to stop initiating and not being more receptive seems to set you up for more pain?
> 
> If you didn't say it why? Be real, tell her most of what in on your mind. It's important that you don't hide yourself. Even if she does not accept what you say, you are revealing who you are. That's good relationship skills. You put it out there.


:iagree:

You have to share your true thoughts and feelings so that she can really understand you. It might make you feel vulnerable, but that's how intimacy works. You'll feel closer to her for expressing yourself in such an honest and intimate way, and she'll feel closer to you because she understands you more, AND because you shared yourself with her.

That closeness and understanding and honesty will help create a desire to work on this issue. Keep talking, and keep listening.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I like my hot stove analogy better. Hey, what's a couple 3rd degree burns 80% of the time? At least you don't get burned once in a while!


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I don't think Dennis Prager has this right. No one responds positively to threats of D. People have a tendency to resist threats by showing their autonomy.
> 
> I'm not sure what he means by his statements relative to giving her body. It makes me picture a decerebrate body going through the motions or dead fish duty sex. If I'm reading the posts from so many unhappy men correctly, it sounds like they want their partner to be fully present and desiring sex.
> 
> ...


Catherine, I had the same reaction to those Dennis Prager links. Reading those made me feel defensive, and I don't even have this issue in my sex life. It closed me off from listening and understanding. 

I kept thinking while reading: it's not about just giving her body, it's about feeling and showing desire for him, that's what makes a man feel loved. Nothing Prager said got me close to understanding that.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I like my hot stove analogy better. Hey, what's a couple 3rd degree burns 80% of the time? At least you don't get burned once in a while!


How about a radio analogy? Sometimes you can tune in to the station, and sometimes you can't.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

norajane said:


> How about a radio analogy? Sometimes you can tune in to the station, and sometimes you can't.


Sure, the radio analogy works. Assuming on the days you can't tune in you get painfully shocked by touching the knob. 

I don't think women get how trainable men are. Rejection hurts. And we learn to avoid the pain.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I like my hot stove analogy better. Hey, what's a couple 3rd degree burns 80% of the time? At least you don't get burned once in a while!





WorkingOnMe said:


> Assuming on the days you can't tune in you get painfully shocked by touching the knob.


:lol::rofl:
You're in a painfully bad mood today.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> :lol::rofl:
> You're in a painfully bad mood today.


lol sorry. You're right. It's the worst week of the month! Oh well, it's the last period ever for my wife....still not sure how I feel about that.

ETA: Catherine I think you get my humor....


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Sure, the radio analogy works. Assuming on the days you can't tune in you get painfully shocked by touching the knob.
> 
> I don't think women get how trainable men are. Rejection hurts. And we learn to avoid the pain.


I don't think LD women, in general, see turning down your H for sex AS rejection of him.

Rejection hurts. Period.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I'm of a split mind on the Prager stuff myself. I do see where Catherine and Nora Jane are coming from, but I don't disagree with everything he said either. 

In any case, it's not going to matter because I very much doubt she'll take the time to read them. She hasn't read any of the books I've been buying for years, so I doubt the columns will be any different.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't think LD women, in general, see turning down your H for sex AS rejection of him.
> 
> Rejection hurts. Period.


I agree with this completely with one caveat 

LD, Low DRIVE women probably don't get the connection between enthusiastic sex and love for a man at all.

LD, Low DESIRE women may very well be rejecting the man who is him.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Fozzy said:


> I'm of a split mind on the Prager stuff myself. I do see where Catherine and Nora Jane are coming from, but I don't disagree with everything he said either.
> 
> In any case, it's not going to matter because I very much doubt she'll take the time to read them. She hasn't read any of the books I've been buying for years, so I doubt the columns will be any different.


Fozzy how is it going?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Fozzy how is it going?


As I predicted, she didn't read the columns. Nor has she made a doctor appointment yet. She's good at promises, lousy at follow-through. 

I've just been trying to concentrate on my own stuff at this point. Having fun with the kids, finding excuses to get out of the house, etc.

She knows how I feel. She'll either come around or she won't. All I can do is what I've been doing. Let her know how I feel and keep trying to improve myself.


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## hawkeye (Oct 6, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> As I predicted, she didn't read the columns. Nor has she made a doctor appointment yet. She's good at promises, lousy at follow-through.
> 
> I've just been trying to concentrate on my own stuff at this point. Having fun with the kids, finding excuses to get out of the house, etc.
> 
> She knows how I feel. She'll either come around or she won't. All I can do is what I've been doing. Let her know how I feel and keep trying to improve myself.


At some point you're going to have to start dropping some bombs on her. I know exactly how you feel. I went through this so many times with my wife. You have another talk and think "ok, I think _this_ time I finally got through." And then nothing changes. She doesn't follow through with anything. And why would she? She's obviously ok with the way things are and unless there's some threat of real consequences, she'll never change.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I just don't think threats are going to make her want me any more than she does now. It wouldn't make me want her if the situation was reversed. That isn't to say consequences would never happen, but I don't think holding them over someone's head as an "or else" would do the relationship any good.

I may change my mind after time goes by and my frustration level returns. Right now I'm so exhausted with all of this it's hard to make myself want to take it to another level of drama.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Fozzy said:


> I just don't think threats are going to make her want me any more than she does now. It wouldn't make me want her if the situation was reversed. That isn't to say consequences would never happen, but I don't think holding them over someone's head as an "or else" would do the relationship any good.
> 
> I may change my mind after time goes by and my frustration level returns. Right now I'm so exhausted with all of this it's hard to make myself want to take it to another level of drama.


Have you read Trickster's thread yet? What are you doing to work on yourself? It seems to take time for changes to occur. That's what happened with Trickster, slow incremental changes. 

I think you are right about threats. They just back your partner into a corner. Do you have a hobby that takes you out of the house and puts you in contact with other people? Do you have any supportive people that you can trust?


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

Well its good you gave yourself 15 years to come up with a plan!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> I just don't think threats are going to make her want me any more than she does now. It wouldn't make me want her if the situation was reversed. That isn't to say consequences would never happen, but I don't think holding them over someone's head as an "or else" would do the relationship any good.
> 
> I may change my mind after time goes by and my frustration level returns. Right now I'm so exhausted with all of this it's hard to make myself want to take it to another level of drama.


People don't usually respond well to threats. If somebody said they were going to hit you in the head with a hammer, you'd likely get mad.

But if the hammer were teetering on the edge of your workbench and it fell off and landed on your big toe, that is simply the natural consequence of your inattention that was completely avoidable.

Helping people to see things as simply natural consequences in a non punishing/non threatening way is a subtle art.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> I just don't think threats are going to make her want me any more than she does now. It wouldn't make me want her if the situation was reversed. That isn't to say consequences would never happen, but I don't think holding them over someone's head as an "or else" would do the relationship any good.


Too often people try to manipulate others by claiming threats or controlling behavior.

Be sure that you stick to your own personal boundaries.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy, as I said in an earlier post on your thread...I think you should bring it up again.

It doesn't have to be drama.

It can be just honest and easy.

Your needs are not being fulfilled, this is causing marital problems, your wife needs this information...no matter how many times or ways you have to say it.

Again - this is coming from a divorced person who knows if only I had found a way to say it loud and clear enough. I thought I would, then things would slip back to normal...I wouldn't want the drama...eventually all the same issues came up again. We ended up unable to overcome the years and years of lack of honest communication.

If you really will NEVER leave over this issue, then ok. Don't have the talk.

But if this will eventually lead you to a D, you need to bring it up everyday if necessary...it is dishonest NOT to tell your spouse that you are so unhappy you are considering divorce.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> If you loved me you would...
> 
> ...take out the trash without being asked.
> 
> ...


What a pile of BS!
The proper comparison would be: if you loved me you would ...
...take out the trash WHEN I ASKED YOU TO
... Support me financially to the best of your abilities
... Try and honor my reasonable requests
... be exactly who I married and who you are


Sex is what separates a marriage from a platonic relationship. OP don't let anyone dissuade you from believing that a healthy sexual relationship is a reasonable expectation of a marriage.

Peace out!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

KanDo said:


> Sex is what separates a marriage from a platonic relationship. OP don't let anyone dissuade you from believing that a healthy sexual relationship is a reasonable expectation of a marriage.


I don't think FW is trying to dissuade him. I think she realizes more than most that a healthy sexual relationship is a reasonable expectation in marriage.

Funny thing about English as compared to some other languages is that we really only have one word for love. We have words that are similar, like fondness, attachment, affection, etc. but they're not the same.

Greek has words that meant specific types of love, like _eros_ for sexual love or _storge_ for love between family members, or _philia_ for love of your fellow man.

Platonic love is still love. It's just not the kind of love that Fozzy wants because sex doesn't naturally follow from it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok Kando, then according to your logic...

If you loved me...*you would be exactly who you are*.

So if you are truly LD...then that would mean...

*If you loved me...you would not desire sex with me*.

Right?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Fozzy,
I 100 percent agree that threats are counterproductive.


The focus needs to be on making yourself:
- More attractive (physically, emotionally, behaviorally) 
- Less available 

Because the reason a sexless marriage feels so bad is the large (oft huge) imbalance in emotional energy. 

The refused is pouring most of their available emotional energy into a person who is not reciprocating. 

Observe the following exchanges: 
(1)
Husband: giving his wife 'the look' just as they get ready for bed
Wife: seeing and understanding the look, asks (in a voice infused with empathy) 'is there any way we could maybe connect tomorrow night'?
(subtext: I care enough about you to pay attention/listen with my eyes, and to convey genuine empathy when asking you to put my needs first)
Husband: Absolutely. (in a tone that conveys sincere acceptance of her desire 'not' to be intimate that night). 

The next night: 
Husband locking eye contact with his W on a night after a nice evening together: I'm going to go take a long hot shower and then I'm going to dry off and 'take' my wife. 

Of course she can still say no, it's her body. But doing so makes the situation clearer. A lot clearer. 






Fozzy said:


> I just don't think threats are going to make her want me any more than she does now. It wouldn't make me want her if the situation was reversed. That isn't to say consequences would never happen, but I don't think holding them over someone's head as an "or else" would do the relationship any good.
> 
> I may change my mind after time goes by and my frustration level returns. Right now I'm so exhausted with all of this it's hard to make myself want to take it to another level of drama.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Oct,
I have a thread where I attempted to define:
- Drive (as in baseline sex drive)
- Desire (sexual response elicited by a specific person)
- Bond (the degree to which you are emotionally committed to your partner, to meeting their needs and avoiding causing them distress)

A high drive person with low desire for their partner tends to direct a lot of sexual energy elsewhere: masturbation, affairs, etc.

Or if they don't, they tend to walk around very tense. Similar to how you feel when you get very hungry for food. 


UOTE=ocotillo;5270770]I don't think FW is trying to dissuade him. I think she realizes more than most that a healthy sexual relationship is a reasonable expectation in marriage.

Funny thing about English as compared to some other languages is that we really only have one word for love. We have words that are similar, like fondness, attachment, affection, etc. but they're not the same.

Greek has words that meant specific types of love, like _eros_ for sexual love or _storge_ for love between family members, or _philia_ for love of your fellow man.

Platonic love is still love. It's just not the kind of love that Fozzy wants because sex doesn't naturally follow from it.[/QUOTE]


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

This is really disappointing that you felt like you had such a good talk and.she heard you and understood the pain you were being caused by this situation - but then took no action.

Sorry, Fozzy.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

MissScarlett said:


> This is really disappointing that you felt like you had such a good talk and.she heard you and understood the pain you were being caused by this situation - but then took no action.
> 
> Sorry, Fozzy.


I agree, and I think Fozzy should tell his wife that he's disappointed and why. 

Fozzy, it's taken you this long to speak up and share your real thoughts and feelings with her. Don't stop now because it's hard and because you don't see immediate results. Your feelings aren't going to just go away if you keep them to yourself. Keep talking.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I find it hard to understand one spouse expressing how unhappy they have been for 15 years and the other just going on like no big deal. Why would someone do that? 

I don't know - Miss Scarlett has hurt her parents by leaving the religion of her upbringing and yet I don't feel its something I can change although it causes pain to those I love.

And yet with a spouse - with sex - it does seem different because once upon a time two people made a vow to be each others exclusive lovers. You cant have it from me and you cant have it elsewhere just seems different and more hurtful than the regular disappointing we do in life.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I'm of a split mind on the Prager stuff myself. I do see where Catherine and Nora Jane are coming from, but I don't disagree with everything he said either.
> 
> In any case, it's not going to matter because I very much doubt she'll take the time to read them. She hasn't read any of the books I've been buying for years, so I doubt the columns will be any different.


and this to me is a very telling post. You keep saying you think she is meeting you in the middle and she tells you to continue initiating although she will deny you and you have to deal with it.
WHAT IS MORE TAXING ON A PERSON IN A MARRIAGE? 
The person who wants to feel desired that is being taught to show desire and be torched and sent away rejected, or the spouse that needs to overcome the obstacle of trying to be intimate and flirt, touch, hold, and show physical love to their partner?
Give me a break already.. 

You know what, most that get up in the morning, strap on shoes and go jogging, don't enjoy exercising more than relaxing, but it is healthy for them, so they do it. 
Sorry, but I think you are applauding his effort to allow his wife to get her needs met but not his, he needs to try to initiate so on the off chance when she feels it, he gets some.
This reminds me of a slave movie I once saw.
"please master, We been working for days, can we have some food, some water and bandages for the wounded" 
"There is a live chicken in the yard and some rain water in that bucket, the injured will have to share those and y'all better be ready to work in the morning"
Have fun pining for scraps Fozzy. I say do something to make her realize that not reading the articles is a huge f'n insult to you.
You deserve better man.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Fozzy,
It is toxic for the marriage to keep initiating if you are mostly getting rejected. It kills her respect for you. 

You focus enough total life energy elsewhere and she will initiate. But do NOT let her tease/flirt when you are away from a bed if she has a history of flirting and not following through. That is even worse. 

If she flirts, just ignore it. Pretend you don't even notice. She will feel rejected and get angry. That is a good thing. It's called creating empathy through experience. Don't respond. Don't get angry back - or if you do - conceal it thru humor or just don't speak. 

She will threaten the marriage by asking if you want a divorce. Don't respond, don't reassure. She does not want a divorce. Those type comments are attempts at pure intimidation. You haven't mentioned separation, much less divorce. It is massively wrong for her to ask you about that. She wants a blank check reassurance that she can do / not do whatever she wants.

As for your part in this, by tolerating all this rejection you have encouraged the theme that she matters and you don't. I bet if I watched you two for a couple days I could give you a dozen examples of interactions that reflect the idea that her feelings, time and financial desires all matter more than yours. You have to fix that. 




MEM11363 said:


> Fozzy,
> I 100 percent agree that threats are counterproductive.
> 
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Fozzy,
If you don't mind answering, I am curious about a few things?

How often do you initiate? 
How often does she reject you?
How often does she flirt with you and then reject you?
How well can you read her general (non sexual) body language?

Does she believe it is the mans job to initiate, or does she initiate when she wants to connect?

Does she know what responsive desire is? 

Have you ever asked her to teach you how to work with her responsive desire by gradually getting her in the mood? 

When you have conflict, how often does she apologize, how often do you? And how often do you both just move on without addressing it? 

How often do you either ignore or openly reject each other's requests? As simple as her asking you to get her a drink when you are both sitting down watching tv, as major as: no I don't want to go to Hawaii for our tenth wedding anniversary? And in the middle, you want to play tennis together and she wants you to take her to a restaurant. Or she wants japanese and you want italian. 




QUOTE=Fozzy;5089826]This is probably really only our second conversation about our sex life that i feel we actually communicated (sad aint it?). I more or less told her that I'd been unhappy with our sex life for the last 15 years. I think that hit her like a hammer when i actually put it like that. I also let her know that I wanted to see some of the promises she's made put into action (doctors visits, etc). 

She told me she needed me to stop taking it so personally when she says no, which I actually agree with. I just wish it were as easy done as said.

Good communication, i think. I finally actually feel like maybe she is understanding where I'm coming from.

The thing that really floored me--I was trying to get info out of her on what kinds of things about me she wants improved, etc. She actually said that she has always been perfectly happy with our marriage. I'm still trying to reconcile that with how unhappy I've been, and how she could have not picked up on it.[/QUOTE]


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Fozzy,
> If you don't mind answering, I am curious about a few things?
> 
> How often do you initiate?


Maybe 4 times/month, plus flirting fairly often.



MEM11363 said:


> How often does she reject you?


3/4 times.



MEM11363 said:


> How often does she flirt with you and then reject you?


She doesn't pull the flirt and forget routine, she just doesn't really ever go there on her own. This indicates responsive desire, however she doesn't really respond to my initiations very often.



MEM11363 said:


> How well can you read her general (non sexual) body language?


Fairly well. I'm pretty good at picking up on when she's in a bad/good/indifferent mood.



MEM11363 said:


> Does she believe it is the mans job to initiate, or does she initiate when she wants to connect?


She does not initiate, ever. She did, early in the relationship, although infrequently.




MEM11363 said:


> Does she know what responsive desire is?


Doubtful. We haven't had that conversation and she's not the type to do the research on her own.



MEM11363 said:


> Have you ever asked her to teach you how to work with her responsive desire by gradually getting her in the mood?


I try to work with this--footrubs, flirting, etc. Occasionally this is successful (this weekend in fact), although more often than not it is not.



MEM11363 said:


> When you have conflict, how often does she apologize, how often do you? And how often do you both just move on without addressing it?


She is very stubborn and does not apologize. I can recall maybe two or three instances of her saying "i'm sorry" in regards to a fight. Most often, either I apologize, or no apology is offered and we just go on with our lives.




MEM11363 said:


> How often do you either ignore or openly reject each other's requests? As simple as her asking you to get her a drink when you are both sitting down watching tv, as major as: no I don't want to go to Hawaii for our tenth wedding anniversary? And in the middle, you want to play tennis together and she wants you to take her to a restaurant. Or she wants japanese and you want italian.


I'm usually the one stepping and fetching for her requests. Usually gracefully, occasionally not so much. I really don't ask her to do much for me (to be fair she does things on her own from time to time without my asking--bringing me a drink or snack, etc). Most requests on both sides are of the small variety. Medium-large requests are usually laughed at on both sides for financial reasons.






Fozzy said:


> This is probably really only our second conversation about our sex life that i feel we actually communicated (sad aint it?). I more or less told her that I'd been unhappy with our sex life for the last 15 years. I think that hit her like a hammer when i actually put it like that. I also let her know that I wanted to see some of the promises she's made put into action (doctors visits, etc).
> 
> She told me she needed me to stop taking it so personally when she says no, which I actually agree with. I just wish it were as easy done as said.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Fozzy,
The apology thing is huge. It, like rejection is a devaluation of how you feel. 

You cannot turn a ship with 15 years of momentum 180 degrees on a dime without likely breaking the hull. 

These phrases have helped me a lot over the years:

When you get treated badly:
- Why would you think I'd be ok with that?
- Would you be ok with me doing that to you? 
- Would you be ok with me doing that to you and then pretending that nothing happened and leaving you to 'get over it' on your own? 
- I am not ok with what happened yesterday.

And when you get the 'non apology' of: 
- I was angry or
- tired
- hungry

As long as the same rules apply in reverse, I am ok with that. 

And always best of all, is humor. And all good humor is about timing. When you get the little request after bad behavior and a non apology, you smile, shale your head and respond: 
Gosh, you look exactly like the woman who recently implied I was an idiot. 

And then don't do as asked. 


QUOTE=Fozzy;5304666]Maybe 4 times/month, plus flirting fairly often.


3/4 times.


She doesn't pull the flirt and forget routine, she just doesn't really ever go there on her own. This indicates responsive desire, however she doesn't really respond to my initiations very often.



Fairly well. I'm pretty good at picking up on when she's in a bad/good/indifferent mood.


She does not initiate, ever. She did, early in the relationship, although infrequently.



Doubtful. We haven't had that conversation and she's not the type to do the research on her own.


I try to work with this--footrubs, flirting, etc. Occasionally this is successful (this weekend in fact), although more often than not it is not.


She is very stubborn and does not apologize. I can recall maybe two or three instances of her saying "i'm sorry" in regards to a fight. Most often, either I apologize, or no apology is offered and we just go on with our lives.




I'm usually the one stepping and fetching for her requests. Usually gracefully, occasionally not so much. I really don't ask her to do much for me (to be fair she does things on her own from time to time without my asking--bringing me a drink or snack, etc). Most requests on both sides are of the small variety. Medium-large requests are usually laughed at on both sides for financial reasons.




[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I feel like you have brought this up numerous times in marriage. On your last conversation Hohenlohe said she seem surprised by you confessing how happy you have been. Her mind went to divorce over this matter.

And yet - no change. Change eight after an honest conversation is likely - its 3-4 months down the road when its easy to slide. But right after she seemed to realize what was at stake....

At this point it seems very likely staying with her will result in more years of the same difficulties.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

norajane said:


> Catherine, I had the same reaction to those Dennis Prager links. Reading those made me feel defensive, and I don't even have this issue in my sex life. It closed me off from listening and understanding.
> 
> I kept thinking while reading: it's not about just giving her body, it's about feeling and showing desire for him, that's what makes a man feel loved. Nothing Prager said got me close to understanding that.


Nora Jane, it's interesting that you and Catherine both disliked the Prager articles. Of course you are both correct that most men would like to think that their wive's enjoyed having sex with them. Dead fish sex or fake orgasm sex are a blow to a lover's ego.

Prager is discusses this problem with masculine logic. His bottom line seems to be that if a wife who forces herself to say yes will:

1) discover her own desire once they they begin to have sex;
2) not suffer a great hurt if she sometimes has sex without desire or pleasure while in contrast repeated denial on her part will cause great hurt to her husband.

The first is sometimes true. The second not that easy to measure. I assume that many women will love their spouses less if they are feel forced to have sex. So, in some marriages the Prager prescription is wrong – coercing a wife to have sex probably also causes deep unhappiness.

Do you feel that undesired male lust is a destroyer of marriages?

I think love and sex are not equal but they intertwined. I once split from a girlfriend with whom I had had the best sex of my life. We were destined to break up because she was graduating and had to move away: staying was not an option. We were both students so marriage did not seem realistic, at least for me.

I never told her that I loved her, but when she was gone I went to her barren dorm room and found almost nothing left but the stiff, dry wash cloth that we had used to wipe ourselves after sex. I felt sudden and unexpected pain. I later concluded that so much good sex simply turned into love: she gave of herself completely and you can only accept that gift if there is reciprocity, perhaps not at first but love grows.

Now, returning to Fozzy's situation. Did they ever have a great sexual connection? It seems not. Personally, I think it is mistake to enter into a marriage without really good sex. But people compromise on this point because they fear that no one better is going come along. Women nearing 30 sometimes settle for men they would not have married at 23.

Do Fozzy and his wife have golden period that could inspire them?

Does Fozzy's wife get horny on holiday? Does the sound of the ocean make sex terrific?

Does she look at other men? Is she attracted to other men? I think anytime a couple have married for awhile and interact socially with other couples, they can see if partner laughs and smiles when interacting with others of the opposite sex in a way that indicates attraction.

This does not mean the spouse acts on this, but it is merely is a fact. But one can wonder, if my wife/husband had no constraints, wouldn't they go for this person?

Sex is not only mingled with love; it also mixed with power. Men love to pleasure a woman so much that she becomes pliable. You were fighting and live was miserable but the argument is over or suspended and you are fvcking her brains out. You fall asleep together happy and wake to have more sex.

Obviously, women don't want this kind of sex when they feel insecure. The family's finances are mess or a child is in trouble. At that point women want to think clearly, and not be stupefied by their husband's erotic ego.

Time and again CWI threads discuss sex and power as a factor. The cheating wife suddenly is more interested in sex because she feels guilty and perhaps aroused. Later she does not want sex with her husband to remain faithful to the OM. And they after Dday she may want sex, even hysterical bonding, to prevent divorce or even to prevent questioning. 

If the BH has his brains addled by sex then rug sweeping is easy.

In conclusion, I suggest that women are resourceful in finding problems to which sex can be a solution. 

A woman who enjoys power in marriage may not wish to have sex because she does not choose to lose that advantage. Fozzy's wife maybe one of them. In which case threatening to divorce in kind and loving way may work. It sounds like an oxymoron to say that threat can be warm and compassionate, but it can.


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## hawkeye (Oct 6, 2012)

MissScarlett said:


> I feel like you have brought this up numerous times in marriage. On your last conversation Hohenlohe said she seem surprised by you confessing how happy you have been. Her mind went to divorce over this matter.
> 
> And yet - no change. Change eight after an honest conversation is likely - its 3-4 months down the road when its easy to slide. But right after she seemed to realize what was at stake....
> 
> At this point it seems very likely staying with her will result in more years of the same difficulties.


It's what happens when she feels safe and secure and there are no consequences for her actions, or lack thereof. She has no incentive to change.


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