# Should I give us another chance



## temperance (Jul 28, 2013)

My husband and I have been living together for 13 years, live together 11 years and married for 2. He has one daughter who was 3 years old when we met. And over the 11 years, he has not work and I work. I am paying his child support, and have paid his divorce settlements for his previous marriage. 
When we first met my job required me to travel extensively around the world as a consultant in a large firm, which in return also have above average income for a young 20s. Maybe that was part of the cause. He would call and chat with me everyday, he would found out when and where my office is and sent me flowers out of the blue. Sex was great too, the passion was there. He lived 2 hours drive away from me at that time. He actually found himself a job in the city and quit his job in a small town and just to stay closer to me. He didn’t and still doesn't have a car and have no driver license, so every weekend when I arrived back home I would go pick up his daughter and I do all the driving. He didn’t have a high education and was working in lower paying labour job. At that time it wasn’t an issue, I was enjoying my time with him and his daughter when I am in town. 
We moved in together into a small condo. He proposed to me and bought me a ring that would cost him a whole week of hard work and I felt so lucky. Within a few months he got an injury and stopped working. I decided to quit my job due to the extensive travel and high level of stress, plus a contract opportunity which paid more and allowed me to stay local, so I took it. Staying local makes me realized his drinking problem that he almost burned down the place a few times, and that he spend most of his time sleeping and playing pc games. We never gotten married until two years ago because my parents started nagging me.
We also decide to get a dog. The place was very small for a dog, a big man and his daughter. With my income increased a little, we decided to move to a bigger house, with a big yard for everyone. Knowing the expenses for the new home would increase, I spoke to him and he promised that he would find a job or help out on building my side business, and lower his drinking consumption. He would talked about having kids, how he would make the garden looks and all that. Everything was ‘rosy’. I was also worried about him being ‘unemployed’, I asked him if he wants to go back to school to take something he will enjoy doing, I put him back to college for game development. But it didn’t work out, he failed 4 out of 5 courses, couldn’t get out of bed and told me he felt sick. 
We moved in to the new house, an hour away from the city. The following two years, he continued drinking, his consumption increased. I would wake up in the morning and the whole kitchen was trashed. When I was home he would be sleeping on the couch, when I got him up he would often snapped at me. Finally I said I have had enough and I wanted to leave him, he then went to a rehab. I took care of everything during that time and also went to visit him every night, brought him magazines until he got out. The next few months I would go with him to AA every night. He did quit drinking and was sober since. 
In the next few years, my health deteriorated and so were my chargeable hours. I was also building a business on the side which had started to gain some traction. Finally I was too sick and had 2 surgeries in the hospital. He would drop me off at the hospital, and he told me he would have to stay home and walk our dog, the hospital was a far drive and he didn’t want to drive without me. He has been driving without a license for years. He didn’t make an effort to see me and took me out of the hospital, I needed to call on my mom. 
Everyday he would get up at 2pm and take the dog out, play his game and watch tv. When I came home we cook and eat. I go to bed, he would kiss me good night and go on about his pc game. 
I have spoken to him about our issues many times, but I never make a ‘fight’. That he needs to do the lawn or I will need to pay the city due to complaints. He would just get annoyed at me and I would stop and go about doing my own thing. 
We also have a sexless marriage, I have tried to spice things up but he was just never ‘in the mood’. He finally went to see the doctor and she prescribed him anti-depressant for his anxiety issues. That apparently help a little bit but I feel that it was a chore for him. He was too lazy to have sex. 
Anyhow, after all these big issues, what keep me staying with him still is the little things. He shows me he cares through the little things. He would still kiss me good night. He would still hold my hands. He would still call everyday when I was at work. He would make me tea and asked me. I guess the routine as well, we have grown to be comfortable, and that I know he loves me, that maybe I expect too much. Most of all, he never complaints about me working on my business or make me feel bad about my business ideas. 
The decision comes down to this... I lost my contract due to a whitleblowing incident, and it also affects my ability to find work these two years. My side business is taking off but it has been huge ups and downs. I have been off and on trying to work like dogs to survive and pay our bills. I have mentioned to him about our financial situation and nagged him to get a job because we are about to lose our house. For months he did nothing. I put our house up for sale. One of my clients couldn’t pay their bills and my business is collapsing. He kept responding to me saying he will find a job after we moved to a smaller house. I told him we don’t have enough to buy a new place because of all the debts that ties into the house. I have also asked him if he wants to see a marriage councillor twice, I supposed when everything was ‘normal and routine’, he just ignored it. 
I finally have had it. The house is sold, and I told him I want to separate. He said we can go see a marriage councillor now, I told him we don’t even have money to put food on the table now. He said he feels that I blame it all on him and that I make him feel it is all his fault. I told him I don't feel he truly loves me, that I feel that I wasn't important enough to have him come see me in the hospital, that I dragged myself up every morning to work at a job that I hated while he see me struggled, he did nothing. 

The house is sold and will be closed in a month. I am not sure what I should do next. 

Sorry for such a long story, but I really really need some help and idea. I feel so stress and lost.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Wow. What a selfish jerk. What kind of husband abandons his wife in the hospital after surgery?? THAT should have been your cue to dump this man! He is a leech, a mooch. Those little things dont mean crap, he doesnt care about your well being enough to make a contribution by getting a job (which in MY opinion makes him less of a man, I have zero respect for a man that WILL NOT WORK) when you are clearing suffering health wise! He does those little things to keep stringing you along and support his lazy ass through life.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Honestly he just hasn't had any clue what he has had in you. I bet he really DOES love you, he has just been lazy as hell about it all these years and hasn't really experienced any consequences of that in all this time.

It sounds like you love him a lot, but you just can't go on being his mother all the time. You want a real man. But it sounds like you let him become this way. A married man doesn't go without a job or a drivers license for over a decade without his wife letting a whole heck of a lot of BS slide over the years. He needs a massive wake-up call, and I suspect that it won't be very hard for you to give him one. With the house sold, him without a job and you needing a new place anyway, here would be my suggestions:

1. Go forward with the separation. Move out of the house, split the stuff, stop giving him money or paying his bills. He can whine/complain about him having nothing or no where to go, sleeping on the street, etc. but those things are his own fault and not yours. What he needs most here is responsibility.
2. Go find yourself a new place with a low monthly rent. Something that would fit both you and your family (husband/kids) at a bare minimum from a size angle IF you ever welcome him back, or you alone comfortably. But make it clear that this is YOUR new residence, not his. If things turn around a few months later, then maybe he can move back in and while it might be tight, your finances will be eased either way.
3. Start attending marriage counseling after a few weeks/months apart. He needs that time to see what life is like without you around to be his mother. No job, no money, no car, bill collectors hounding him, embarrassed in front of his daughter and friends, etc.
4. In the mean time, focus on you and you alone. DON'T date. Excluding major relationship breakign decisions (like taking a job across the country or something), make planning/purchasing decisions based on the idea that you'll be alone. 

Let him know that you're fully prepared and planning to move on alone. Put him in a situation where he has to decide whether he loves you enough to try to fix his areas of deficiency in order to TRY to win you back, as there is no guarantee. If you ever do decide to give him another chance, or hint that there is a chance to him, you have to really make it clear as day that you will never ever tolerate similar behavior from him again, and lay out those expectations. No hinting, no dropping clues in passing, but directly face to face and maybe even in writing laying out your position.

Good luck!


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

No, you aren't expecting too much. You are expecting the bare minimum, and not even getting that. Why does a grown man have no license? Have you enabled him by letting him use your car, which you would be responsible should he get in an accident or god forbid- kill someone!

Separate and let him realize what he has and only let him back on conditions you feel are appropriate, like getting a job., a license, helping whenever and wherever necessary,

One person cannot keep a marriage alive, as you have figured out. Good luck!


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## temperance (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you all for advices and take the time to read my long story. 
Cdbaker you are correct and wow... you read my mind with your number 4. I have thought trying to get a job like my old job that will go 'across the country', or get a contract overseas to get the cash flow plus go away from it all for now. I have also thought about starting to date, maybe it is the nature of a business woman, I do have constant pursuers, surprisingly with or without my rings. So the thought of dating and having options did come to my mind. My escape is often go golfing and bury myself at work, after all they are just escapes. I have a tendency to avoid confrontation and let things slide, so yes I probably let a lot of BS slides over the years. My friends told me he guilt me into marrying him with our dog... to be honest it was. I love my dog, I am having hard time deciding to leave partly also because of my dog, I know it sounded stupid. 

Two days ago I decided to call him while at my office, I asked him if he wants to find a marriage counselor. I went home, obviously he was very happy, and everything was 'back to normal'. I am worried about his emotion. But.. yes he is not my son and I shouldn't be mothering him and worry about him.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

The fact that everything went "back to normal" should be a red flag to you. I am afraid all you are doing is prolonging the inevitable. But I guess this way you can say you tried, even though you are the only one who has all along.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

I agree with 3Xnocharm. Nothing can go back to "normal". Again I could easily see him just having no clue how close you are to calling it quits here. We guys often struggle to understand our wives. Women tend to be indirect, dropping hints here, mentioning feelings there, and we just don't understand that kind of communication. If she says, "I feel unhappy and alone" it is easy for us to chalk that up to any number of things that cause women to be emotional. A guy could hear that and think, "oh she's having a bad day, maybe I will bring her some ice cream for dessert and cheer her right up." You said he mostly ignored you suggesting a marriage counselor until you brought up a separation. Again that is more evidence to me that he really does not know how far this has gone. He is either ignorant, or an *******, and I doubt he is an *******.

So he could easily be thinking right now that he's done what he needs to do to satisfy this "crazy emotional thing" you've been on lately talking about separations and being unhappy with his laziness and so forth, by agreeing to go to marriage counseling. Maybe he figures the marriage counselor will help show you how good of a guy he is. Either way, don't let up.

I'm guessing that everything going "back to normal" means that you aren't planning to go forward with the separation, cut him off, etc. I suppose if you are going to start MC asap, then maybe that is fine. I say asap, because you mentioned your house is sold and you need to find new living arrangements. That makes it the perfect time to start a separation so that you can pick out a new place on your own for yourself without his input and force him to fend for himself. It's a prime "wake up call" opportunity. So if you aren't going to go the separation route, then work with the counselor to get some of these things figured out as soon as you possibly can.

Also, I totally understand your desire to open yourself up to other men, but unless you are truly 100% finished with your marriage (and it sounds like you aren't yet) then that would be a really bad idea and you should do your best to not let those desires influence you right now. It also could definitely hurt you in divorce court if an extramarital relationship were to be discovered. If you are willing to give him a chance, then make sure you are 100% committed to the marriage until such a time where that is impossible.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

I think that he is a user and that this behavior is destructive to the relationship. You need to be very honest with yourself about this relationship and what you believe is going to happen. Firstly you can never love a man you don't respect, his couch potato days must end. I don't care if he is doing volunteer work until he gets a job, he must be fruitful. Secondly, you need to decide if he has the ability to become a real partner in this relationship. This is a parent child relationship, that will never survive, it must change. Make a command decision, devise a plan, execute swiftly.


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## temperance (Jul 28, 2013)

I have figured that maybe he just doesn't get it until I really leave him, but then it would be too late, like now. I mean... nagging him for the last 10 years to get a license and he still doesn't get it... and think I am just having an 'emotional episode'?! Wow! 

I was seeking counsel, legal counsel. I can see this thing turns into fear, and then anger... and he will cripple me financially. There is two things I am worrying about... how to cut the cheque of selling the house. If it is 50/50 before I paid off all our debts, then I guess it is still ok with me. But if it is 50/50 before, then it will leave me nothing. Plus... I have been putting him on my company payroll to 'stabilized' the child support and lower taxes, and I have put retirement savings into his account automatically from his pay cheque too. So in theory he has been working and contributing to my business and home income :'( ... and therefore he will have the right to half of my company shares and my Account Receivable as well regardless if my company cash flow is in a dump right now. 

Update: 
There is a turn of event happened last night. We actually fight, I actually yelled at him last night. It all started when I was in my office and he called me and told me to get some groceries and what greens he wants. One of my colleague was with me and she over heard my conversation... and she said... "why can't he go get it himself? He doesn't have a car tell him to go take a bus!" Funny I didn't even think about that. Anyways, I went home late and didn't realize I left my purse, cards, wallet in my office. It is 60km away one way, and I was dead tired. Knowing we need food, I would need to drive back to my office. Yes he doesn't even have money, or bank cards. I gave him but he never bothered to go set it up.... over the years he has been just waiting for me to come home to go 'get stuff' and 'get money'... If I travel I would give him more than enough cash to survive for the week until I come back. 

He wanted to come with me and wanted me to go walk the dog with him first. I told him I was tired so he take the dog out. 

The whole way driving I didn't say a thing.. he was trying to 'make small talk' and I just answered briefly. He asked me why I look so angry. 

I told him why I was angry. I said I was upset, first I wasn't relax because he is driving with no license and the left rear light signal light out (that's a whole other new issue with that)... and why we have no access to any money to get food if I don't have my purse. Why can't he go get food himself, why does he always need to wait for me to get home to do anything? He said because he has no car, and I asked him why he has no car? I asked him why doesn't he get it? 

We got home late, he slammed the car door so hard that the alarm went off while I was sitting in the car. He was so angry because he thought he was doing something nice to me by driving me down to get my purse. I was furious, I told him I drive 120km in traffic every f-king day! I pretty much spew it all out, I told him he acted as if everything is good and asked me to come home and get food because he was hungry! I told him it was the last day of the month, we don't have enough to pay any of our bills and not even food! He said I "always" get angry and yell at him... I asked him if he can name an incident I raise my voice at him all these years!? How dare can he say "always"!!! He said I never walk the dog, that he walk him and feed him all the time. I told him yes this is really hard work! I stopped walking him a few months ago just to prove a point but obviously he was thinking he was doing me a favorite... He yelled at me and said he thought I want to work things out... I asked him how, I told him just act as everything is back to normal when all these issues haven't been address and he just refuses to talk about them. I asked him what have he been doing everyday still? He pulled the anxiety / depression card... he said he has been searching for job like crazy the 2 days and how can I expected him to find a job in 2 days! I didn't argue with him anymore.... 2 days? Well.. I was expecting him to find job months ago. And that he feels sick and if its not because of his anti-depressant he would go into an anxiety episode ... his anti-depressant is new drug so insurance doesn't cover it.. it is costing me 200 bucks every pack which last him 3 weeks. 

He keeps on saying he does all the little things for me, and I 'yelled' at him told him don't do all the little things for me anymore. 

I am done... this is it. I just borrowed money from my friend to barely cover this week payroll to my employees and our bills for now. I have signed a contract with a large firm that would bring in the much needed cash for my company and myself to survive. I have once again hustle with my landlord not to kick us out... I have not told my employees the situation yet. My stress level is up to the roof and really I am not in the right frame of mind but I have to keep plowing


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Ouch, I am sorry for your situation. Money troubles causes many problems and stress. I work in the financial industry advising clients on different issues for over 30 years. If you separate, will the daughter have a good place with her mother? I am not unfeeling about you, just also concerned about kids. Will you be able to get a retainer or advance from the large firm?


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

I totally respect your anger, and the situation you described. It's absolutely unacceptable. Really honestly I would reconsider what I wrote above on 7/30. Get a new place that fit for you and you daughter, stop giving him money or car rides or paying his bills. Heck he might not even be aware of the financial stuff you've done to stabilize child support and tax liability and what he could take from you. Let him go fend for himself, beg for a couch to sleep on at a friends house or to borrow money or to get a job at McDonalds or whatever. If he has to sleep on the street a few nights, then let him sleep on the street a few nights. He'll probably be mad as hell at first but after that passes he'll either wake up and realize what he is really facing and finally be capable of realizing the changes he needs to make, or he'll crash and not care. Either way, you'll end up happier.

The story about the dog walking reminds me of an old Jeff Foxworthy joke. I think it involves the wife out mowing the yard or otherwise working her tail off, while the husband is inside enjoying a beer and a cigar. He see's her working her butt off and thinks to himself that he aught to do something nice for her. He then gets up, empties the ash tray, walks outside and yells out something like, "Hey Baby, don't you worry about emptying the ash tray, I done took care of it! All for you!" as proudly as ever.


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## temperance (Jul 28, 2013)

Thanks guys. For harrybrown, I am in finance as well... so I totally understand, and that's why I am scared now. We have done a lot of books for our clients who went through divorce and the bitterness that comes with it... I have seen how business collapsed and left the business and the owner in absolute ruins. While I feel like I am in rock bottom, I see that it can be worst and that is scaring the bejesus out of me now. It was so easy to give my clients advices on what to do when we are not in the situation. We have joint custody so yes, she can stay at her mom and grandma, besides she is not mine  which is tough because now I realized all this time I have been supporting and raising someone else kid, and at the end she is gone. She looks up to me and respect me. Now I will be putting her in a tough position, where her mom is hounding on child support and all that now I don't pay. In my opinion she is not a good mom but who am I to judge. I went ahead to pay for their divorce settlement years ago, it was because she came asking for money and dropped the kid off constantly out of the blue and thought she has every rights... and when me and my husband moved in together... she said "you guys have to lower your living standard". That was it for me, that's when I went to the lawyer and put out a divorce court order with our terms and therefore the joint custody. Well.. that was when the daughter was still a baby. She is 15 now so she can pretty much take care of herself. 

About the cash flow issue, the contract is not like an independent contractor type of agreement, in that case I would have no problem asking for an advance. It is a deal I have been working with a few guys with a relatively large oil company. Credibility is the key, disclosing my trouble financial situation is not going to work. Although contracts are all signed but still, if they want to pull out they can. I just sublet part of my office, so we will see if I can hang on as much as possible to tough out these two months. I really don't want bankruptcy. The problem is... I just can't focus and haven't been able to be productive at all for months now. It is part of the problem for my 'downfall'. Part of me feels like I fail everyone, no strength to pick it up again. However, part of me feel excited I can start over. Part of me also scare and have the temptation to just abandon everything, forget about the debts, employees, leases, just take sell the house, take all the money and run. I know that is bad and I would never be able to do that, but it did come through my mind. 

Yea cdbaker, Jeff Foxworthy joke was funny.... for me not anymore! He just doesn't get it does he? I wasn't hinting or expect him to 'just know'. I don't have the heart to just throw him out. 

Update again: My house will be closed in end of Oct without any conditions, the buyer wasn't able to do financing so they came back and asked for an extension, it is a done deal or lawsuit if they can't close. 

That means more time for me... he has been acting as if everything is normal. If I don't speak about it, he is happy as long as I act normal as well. If I do speak about it, he is annoyed and told me "I know I know, I am looking for work already". cdbaker you are right, I think he thinks I just have an 'emotional episode' and will pass. Normal is good for him, not good for me, but I also don't want a fight, it is emotional draining and I really need to put myself together! I feel angry inside when he started asking me for money now like "do you have enough cash for smokes? where's your purse?". When i said "no", he would ask "which card do you want me to use to take out money".

I am still not sure if I have made my decision... what if he finds a job, give him a few months if he really finds a job should I still work things out with him? One of the big thing is... we have a sexless marriage. He hasn't been sleeping with me... I don't just mean having sex, but just sleep in the same bed with me for years. He would sometime just lie with me for a bit until i fall asleep, he might come to bed around 5am, usually when he started snoring really loud that's when I get up for my day. Most days he would be sleeping on the couch. These few days he has been sleeping in the daughter's room while she is at her mom. Same schedule over the weekend, he would wake up around 2-3pm. My point is... for years, I have been sleeping in cold bed. I have checked his computer which he pretty much spend all his days ... not to spy on him but just tried to figure out what the hell... but nothing, just gaming stuff, no porn at all. When we first move in together, I caught him flirting with a girl online, but that was it. He was crying and told me he was drunk and and all. After all it was just online, I was upset but he stopped even playing that online game for me to 'trust' him, I thought it was sweet (am I stupid or what). But he doesn't act like he has been cheating or having an affair. If anything he thinks I am cheating. I have been always out a lot, staying late at my office a lot, and going out with my best friend a lot, go golfing a lot, and that my best friend is a man. 

He is just not 'in the mood'.... long story short, I stop trying. So even if he start working again.... there is no guarantee. Just like I thought things would get better when he stopped drinking.

About the marriage councelor, well there is just no cash for it. I have 3 months with him now.... should I choose to try to get my point across again... that means more fights and confrontations, or just have some peace and try to figure out how to survive my business... maybe still take a vacation and go away for a few weeks.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

You say you are unsure you have made your decision...you are getting zero support from this man who is supposed to be your partner...zero financial support, and zero emotional, sexual support. What use is he?? What is the point?? I think he is probably cheating on you. Use these three months to get your plan together to divorce this useless leech. So what if he gets a job?? Much too little, much too late. Stop being his mother and knock his ass out of the nest.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Well, I think you might be misunderstanding my suggestion. It sounds like you are still trying to decide if you want to continue in the marriage before you have actually done anything to change the situation to see if it is worth saving. You said that things are sort of back to normal now which is where he is comfortable and you are not. Clearly the status quo is unacceptable, and if it doesn't change, you'll want the divorce, so what you need to do is change the status quo!

Everything you say about your husband makes it really incredibly clear that he has just gotten lazy and takes everything for granted. He hasn't needed to get a job, has probably let himself go in a lot of ways including how he wants to be perceived by you, he hasn't had the motivation to improve himself at all, etc. Naturally this is all ultimately his responsibility, but I'm sure you are aware that you share fault for having allowed it all this time. Anyone can say, "No I didn't! I have always told him that I feel unappreciated, disrespected, etc. etc. etc." but if there hasn't been any action behind it, then you have yourself to blame as well.

So what you need to do is make him understand that the status quo is unacceptable and will not be allowed to continue, period. No but's. One way or the other, his way of life will be changing, whether it is with you or not, period. The next step is back up those words with actions, which given the severity of his laziness and failures to take your pleas seriously over the years, means you need to wake him up the hard way by starting to make decisions by yourself, for yourself. Cutting him off financially, cutting him off from use of your car, stop paying his bills or handling his responsibilities to the extent legally allowed, and don't sugar coat or sweet talk anything. He has to realize that he has no say in the matter.

You already said that you really don't want to kick him out and such. Of course you don't, you still have feelings for the guy and that's a good thing, but you have to toughen up for yourself AND for him, because he is going to wake up and have to change regardless of how you move forward. The free ride is over, and his "I know I know, I'm looking for a job" non-sense just shows that he isn't taking you seriously at all. He probably figures that means he has anywhere from a few more months to another year or so to find that job, and that he can afford to be picky about it and take his time. I imagine you'd be happy with any job he could possibly come home with as long as it was SOON, regardless of type of work/pay. 

The point is that whatever you have said/done to try to get him to get his ass in gear has simply not been enough. Remember, if you refuse to allow this "normal" any longer, then it IS inevitable that his way of life will change. If you divorce, he'll have to change in order to make a living/survive. So, knowing that he is going to change for the better no matter what, and that doing so will make him realize how much he had taken you for granted, aught to be comforting to know.

My guess is that he is probably a decent guy. I think a LOT of decent guys, if not most of them, could easily fall into the role that he has given the opportunity he's had with you and the apathy of their spouse to allow it to continue over a long period of time. Heck, if I didn't have to go to work I sure as heck wouldn't, especially if it didn't seem to bother my wife and there were no obvious consequences. For instance, I've seen a handful of friends/family get laid off or otherwise lose their jobs and go on unemployment. Once there, they LOVE not having to go into work every day, the freedom of it, no responsibilities, etc. Their spouses want to be supportive and help them find ways to adjust their finances to fit the reduced income from unemployment benefits, which (thanks to Obama's extensions) they were once able to enjoy for up to 80 weeks, usually without ever having to prove they were trying to get jobs. They became lazy, stopped dressing/showering in the morning, falling asleep on the couch from movies/late night movies they could indulge in, ate all day and stopped caring for themselves, sometimes even entering into depression over it all, etc. Their spouses put up with it trying to be supportive and gently encourage them to look for work, but without any action to force the issue. It was bad news all around.

Also, I reaaaally doubt he is cheating on you. It sounds like he doesn't have a whole lot of regular adult contact with the outside world, and his not having access to a car probably inhibits that a lot too. I'm sure he has found ways to access porn though. If he isn't sleeping with you and isn't self pleasuring himself regularly then there must be a chemical imbalance/depression of some kind going on in a major way.

In my town, we have a local income based counseling organization. There was a time when I needed services for free which they provided, and when things improved and I got a new job, I started paying $25/session which still wasn't bad. I bet there are some local resources you could find. If not, just wait until you have forced his hand to get a job and have him pay for it.

If you decided to give up before you've actually taken some of these easy steps to force a behavior/attitude change in him, I think that would be an awful shame. So don't wait any longer because you'll only grow more resentful. It's not going to get any better until you do something about this.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

To put this in simpler terms and use a parent/child analogy which I think is especially relevant in your situation...

If you tell your child to clean his room and he doesn't do it, that's unacceptable. If you don't ground him, don't spank him, don't take away priviledges, still allow him to do all the things he wants to do whenever he wants to do them, why would he ever bother to clean his room? If you threaten to do those things but don't follow through, again, why would he bother to clean his room? Clearly the child believes he can get away with it without consequence. He's probably not a bad kid, and could probably learn to clean his room quite effectively and keep it up too, but you'll never know until you discipline him. So do you give it a shot or write the kid off, figuring maybe you'll find a better kid next time?


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## temperance (Jul 28, 2013)

I understand your point. I have to kick him out and let him fend for himself to force him 'grow up', that's why I suggested separation, not a divorce. But he was devastated, separation for him means this is it. 

I must say our relationship wasn't build on a good foundation right from the get go... I wasn't able to keep any relationships because I was traveling so damn much and never there, and he was the one who stick-it-out. We are total opposite when it comes to personality. Or maybe I was hurting his ego. I have nagged him to get a job for years, eventually he got frustrated and told me "I will never be able to earn as much as you!". That wasn't my expectation, all i want him to do is try, just get a freaking job, any job. 

He is exactly how you describe it when the spouse lost their job and became lazy, and just let himself go. But, he is not my son. You have no idea how many times I wanted to tell her mom... please take your son back, I am done support him. 

So... yes, I am going to tell him I want a separation... I still want a separation not only for me to think things through, but I want to see him pick himself up... tough love 

Another major thing for me is that... for years we have no children because he is just not father material with his irresponsible behaviour. Now I am 36, not much time left if I want to have kid. And this is not the man I want to have children with  At least not now.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Exactly! It is on you to put him in a situation where he will have to grow his ass up. He really wont have any choice. In the meantime, work on you, making yourself a more desirable woman by getting your stuff in order (which will make him jealous and/or want you more) and help boost your self esteem. He'll have to fend for himself and prove to you that he is worthy. Just dont crack and take him back until he has actually proven himself. No more promises!

He will be devestated. He will pout and cry and think the sky is falling, basically going through a handful of the stages of grief. It'll be hard for him for a few days/week or so. Dont be mean of course, and feel free to let him know that you haven't 100% decided on divorce, just so he has a tiny bit of motivation to work for, vs just giving up and moving back to Mom's house or whatever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## temperance (Jul 28, 2013)

Still not separated  

Update: I just let my home phone, internet and cable discounted. My phone is voip phone, so no internet, no phone. It has been for 3 days now. He asked me for his resume finally just two days before the phone was disconnected, that's when I broke down and cry in the office, have a few wine as well in my office. Then the next day he called in the afternoon and asked me for his resume. 

I didn't let the hydro cut off, I didn't pay for it until the last minute and I let him know about it. Now that we don't have internet, he has no games to play. He started doing a bit more housework, he folded all the clothes. 

Every little things now gets me angry. When I told him just get a pizza for dinner....I was hoping to order pretty much the cheapest deal. Well, he wanted this and that, so there you go another 20 bucks dinner for 2. He still look into my purse and ask me if I have enough cash for him to go get smokes. He packed me lunch from leftover and put a note, the sweet things he does to make me happy. He went out to get smoke and got me an ice cream bar at the gas station. Like you said.... he would give me ice cream to cheer me up because I was down. And of course now I don't take it like a little happy girl he gets upset. 

He ate pretty everything at night while I was asleep. And yes that's his sleep schedule which I hated it all these years. I did take the lunch and left some meat over, knowing the dog and him might want to have more meat now I really try to prove a point that we have no money for FOOD!! I told him I left some meat because we don't have enough food for everyone, he got upset at me, told me he packed it FOR ME. 

Last night he asked me if we want to watch a movie together (one of the dvd) and if I want to go out with him and his buddy for night golf. (it is with one of his weed smoking buddies, they started to get those glow in the dark golf balls and shoot them in the park at night). I told him no I don't want to go. I told him the reason why I don't want to go its because this is not to time to play. Our issue here is not that he doesn't spend enough time with me playing! He was upset and told me he just wanted me to relax and do something fun. I was furious inside that I just told him this is not the time to have fun, in fact it has been a while that he should be just thinking about FUN!! I didn't slash out I just kept my month shut. 

I told him last night I want him to be able to pick himself up, be independent and at least self sufficient. He was angry and start defending himself that he has been looking for work. Everything I told him he fight back and defend himself. I told him I want to separate. He was angry and told me I have already made up my mind, that he thought WE wants to work things out, that I made him feel bad about himself. He said he will move back to his mom next week, and ask me if I can handle the dog. Did I mention he is 42 years old? My dog would be devastated he is gone  He knows I love my dog. We don't have kids of our own so my dog is pretty much my kid. I have strong emotional attachment with the whole situation with my dog and him.

When I went to bed, he stormed into the room and took his side of the pillow and blanket (he preferred his own blanket) and went to his daughter's room. She is spending her time with her mom for the summer so the room is empty all month. I was angry, upset, and felt anxious about him leaving us all alone  

But then.... he went out with his buddy for an hour or so, and he came back, woke me up (well I wasn't sleeping) and he changed his mind. He asked me if we want to go out somewhere with the dog on Saturday. He looked at me and told me "I love you", and he said he will come back to bed and cuddle after he went out to get a pop. Well... he did come back and went out again for a few hours and didn't come home till 2am. He came into the room smells like weed, and told him me to get him some bandaid and showed me his leg was bleeding. It just looked like he had a scratch and that he just let the blood dripped to his ankle. Anyhow, that was that and he went about doing his own routine and finally came to bed I think at 4 or so. 

I really don't know what to do at this point.


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## pepsi1967 (Aug 15, 2013)

you are a very giving person. however you are being taken for a fool. Tough love, remember you said you would try that. drugs, out with friends, the back and forth...he is playing at your heart. the one that keeps giving over and over again. when you put a positive you out into the world positive things will start to happen. the dog will adjust if he is gone. You however keep making excuses. tell him to leave and stay away for one week...STICK TO IT, and see in a week how you feel. keep busy, excersise, do YOU. He will give you respect when you demand it by YOUR actions. Good Luck. Be blessed.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

Let him take his blankie and pillow to his mommies house and she can try to raise him to adulthood. Please don't continue this mess, you can't let him drag you down. I don't care what he promises, he won't change.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

VFW said:


> Let him take his blankie and pillow to his mommies house and she can try to raise him to adulthood. Please don't continue this mess, you can't let him drag you down. I don't care what he promises, he won't change.


Agreed, he is a manchild and is not going to change.


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## temperance (Jul 28, 2013)

We are kind of separated.... I am living in a hotel with my points right now. I guess things took a wrong turn. 

We went to our first couple counseling yesterday, my birthday. It was a good session. Anyhow, that morning before we left for the counseling, he gave me a birthday card. A sweet one, says on it on the cover "Wherever you go, I go with you", inside the card "Always with you, Only with you". In the signature he signed "I love you very much, xoxo". I didn't know what to think at that time because the couple counseling was kind of my chance to make a point that I want separation, I have mixed feeling after that. 

Well... in the evening I went out for a business meeting, yes it was supposed to be from 5-6pm, but I didn't get to go home until 11pm and was quite buzz from all the drinks... so I rest up a bit at my office before I drove out... by the time I reached home it was almost 1am. My phone long ran out of battery. When I got home he was obviously very angry, so I didn't say much and went to bed. I only survived with 5 dollars and was able to put gas just enough to get home. 

Today when he got up (he got up at 3pm), he was mad. He got very angry at me, said that I didn't even say Thank you after I seen the card. He said I don't care, and I don't give a sh*t about his feelings. He said I was drunk and was with some marketing guys that he doesn't know. He was so mad he tear the card up and threw it in the garbage. He said he hasn't been taking his anxiety medicine for two weeks already because I said I couldn't afford it and I didn't even ask if he is feeling ok. I told him we only have five bucks cash left. Seriously that's all we have left, the car gas light was on for a while so I couldn't afford to drive back to my office today therefore I have stayed home. I also needed to get some pads for my period today so we are down to two bucks only. I humbled myself and asked my parents to borrow some money, I have an ear full anyhow I got some money to cover for the up coming mortgage and have enough for the important thing like hydro and food. He doesn't seem to understand our financial situation at all. Anyway, he was so angry all day since he woke up, and I was upset, so I told him I want to be by myself for a while. He was very angry and told me he needs money to get groceries. I packed up and told him I will be using my points to get a hotel to stay for a few days until it all runs out. I left him a few hundred dollars, drove him out to get food but he told me to just leave him the money and he wanted to walk home. I told him that should be enough for him to get his pills, food, and just in case the gas company disconnect our gas and put a note on the door. He told me I made him feel like he is useless and a garbage. I also told him I will try to see if I can get the cable company paid so the internet phone, tv and internet can be up again so he can call me. 

I called the marriage counselor this morning to make another appointment for next week. I am not sure where this is going now, and what now after I used up my free nights at the marriott :'(

I am such a mess right now I don't know how to pull all these together anymore.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

temperance said:


> Today when he got up (he got up at 3pm), he was mad. He got very angry at me, said that I didn't even say Thank you after I seen the card. He said I don't care, and I don't give a sh*t about his feelings. He said I was drunk and was with some marketing guys that he doesn't know. He was so mad he tear the card up and threw it in the garbage. He said he hasn't been taking his anxiety medicine for two weeks already because I said I couldn't afford it and I didn't even ask if he is feeling ok. I told him we only have five bucks cash left. Seriously that's all we have left, the car gas light was on for a while so I couldn't afford to drive back to my office today therefore I have stayed home. I also needed to get some pads for my period today so we are down to two bucks only. I humbled myself and asked my parents to borrow some money, I have an ear full anyhow I got some money to cover for the up coming mortgage and have enough for the important thing like hydro and food. He doesn't seem to understand our financial situation at all. Anyway, he was so angry all day since he woke up, and I was upset, so I told him I want to be by myself for a while. He was very angry and told me he needs money to get groceries. I packed up and told him I will be using my points to get a hotel to stay for a few days until it all runs out. I left him a few hundred dollars, drove him out to get food but he told me to just leave him the money and he wanted to walk home. I told him that should be enough for him to get his pills, food, and just in case the gas company disconnect our gas and put a note on the door. He told me I made him feel like he is useless and a garbage. I also told him I will try to see if I can get the cable company paid so the internet phone, tv and internet can be up again so he can call me.



Temperance, read this paragraph that you wrote here. Can you see how pathetic this is? This grown man choosing to have to ask his wife for money, and rides, etc...do you see how this is a mother/child relationship? Its crazy. Look at how YOU have to struggle. I cannot fathom how in the world you continue to deal with this. In my opinion, its time to shove that baby bird out of your nest. You deserve better than this.


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## JLinJapan (Aug 29, 2013)

Clearly he is living in the present and does not want to think about the future/long term. He seems content and very comfortable at what he has been doing (sleeping when he wants, waking up when he wants, playing games, having no real responsibilities like institutional work). This is very dangerous. If he was still very young, some young people go through this, however, if they truly want to, they can pick it up. Since he is already 42, this is a big problem.
He may be not telling you something about what he is really feeling inside. He may be very scared about failure, afraid of being unable to get a job that he is just running away. He believes that the little things he does for you will have you love him and keep his comfortable free life from running its course. Unless you are wealthy (you mentioned financial troubles so this isnt the case) or unless he has very wealthy parents who gave him inheritance etc (this doesnt seem to be the case as well) he can not engage in this kind of lifestyle forever. He needs a real wake up call. He needs to get back to reality and needs to fully understand that his little fantasy world of comfort can and will not last and eventually he will be put into a life changing situation. Work to to able to live.
I think for him to understand the reality of this situation, you need to leave him. Im not talking about divorce. Judging from your messages, im sure he is not doing anything such as cheating and im sure he still loves you. But you need to be stronger and say you will separate and if you do not change your lifestyle (get a job) soon, you will leave him completely. If he realizes the seriousness in this and shapes up, then i think your relationship will survive and he will be happier than before. If he does not wish to change, he has got a very tough road ahead of him.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Yeah I hate to say it but I don't think anything has really improved over the course of your posts or the time you have described. There just isn't an excuse good enough to explain away his behavior. I can't even believe that you still left him a few hundred dollars of borrowed money given your financial situation. He seems to feel angry that you demand more from him and struggle to respect him, but he can't motivate himself to do anything about it.

I really think the only answer is a genuine separation, one that includes cutting him off financially. Let him move back in with his mom, with no money, and figure out what that feels like for a while. Get your life in order in the meantime. (I get the impression that, financially speaking, you could afford the house, bills, food, gas, etc. for yourself alone, right? Meaning if your financial responsibility to him ended, you would be alright on your own?) Get your finances in order, eat better and work out a bit maybe, spend time with your friends, etc.

He can spend time with mom and hopefully realize how pathetic it is for a jobless, car-less 42 year old man to be living at his parents house, and even worse if he doesn't wake up soon and still doesn't get a job or transportation. I'm guessing he'll go into a full on panic/begging mode in a desperate attempt to get you to welcome him back, to convince you of whatever it takes to let him back home. You can't do it though, promises just can't cut it anymore. Clearly you love the guy and don't want to see him suffer, but like it or not you are in the mother role right now and the only way you'll change that is by kicking him out of the nest and force him to fly on his own.

Maybe then, maybe down the road (months at the VERY LEAST) he can realize how good he had it, how much of a worthless a$$ he was, and how much you deserve from a man. Just as important, maybe someday he'll respect himself and have enough confidence in himself that he won't allow something like this to happen again either.

Either way, I don't think you sitting in a hotel and continuing to finance him is an answer to anything. Go home, kindly tell him that he needs to leave in order to get his act together. Doesn't matter to you where he goes, just that he leaves and understands that you aren't giving him any more money. If he panics and angrily demands if you intend to divorce him, I would say that right now you aren't planning to. Right now you're setting boundaries for yourself and you and he will have an opportunity further down the road to decide the future of your relationship. If he gets angry and refuses to go, then I would go ahead and threaten to just go file for divorce immediately, then walk out the door. I'll bet he changes his mind.

If he doesn't, then file for divorce, and see if that gets through to him.


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## temperance (Jul 28, 2013)

Thanks for all the advice! So you guys are suggesting marriage/couple counseling is a waste of time? I kind of wish the MC will tell him to leave, since I am having so much hard time doing it!!

One thing I forgot to mention... he was mad because he said he thought I want to work on the marriage... he said he thinks I purposely sabotage our marriage. I feel that he is trying to find faults at me now and blame me on his suffering. I also feel that he is playing the victim game that he is 'sick' and want me to feel sorry for him. I really don't think he gets any of the issues I raised. I just can't have a calm and civilized 'talk' with him anymore. 

I am still staying at the hotel. It is also a good time for me to reflect. Staying here just for a few days make me realized I spend most of my life living in hotels, and I am only able to feel good about myself if I know someone loves me... i.e. he would call me everyday when I am away, never miss a day. It is a routine, but for me it is my emotional support so I can focus on work. Now I cannot. I understand my 'fear of abandonment' issues and choose men who are not really emotionally available.... how do I get to choose a 'son' is still beyond me to understand. I have had been thinking about taking a job, more stable than building my own business, less pay but still require travel so this marriage would kind of work again. But then it is different now, because I feel that my money is not being well spend, and I am tired of working. 

My business is in crisis right now so I am in a start-up survival mode right now to pick up, so financially no I won't be able to support myself right at this moment. But yes I am confident enough I will turn it around and get my financial situation sort out in no time. And yes, I will be better off financially without him


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

I think continued MC is probably a good thing, but it sounds like he views that as being "enough". Plus, you have to remember that it is very very common for spouses entering into MC to go into it thinking that the MC is really for their spouse, not for them. So he could easily think that he is really just doing the MC for you, that he doesn't really need it but you clearly have some issues that you need to work through so he's willing to help out by tagging along to MC. Like...

"Well we're in MC, which she wanted us to do. If it will help her get through this emotional funk/rough patch she's been going through, then I'll do it because I'm a good husband. Plus it should calm her down and let things go back to normal for a while. After all, she can't expect any changes while we're starting MC."

I'm saying that I could EASILY see him still not taking this seriously. I could see him thinking that just agreeing to attend MC is enough to satisfy you and let everything else remain status quo in the meantime. Have you ever brought up something that he needs to be doing (like finding a job, contributing more, fulfilling a promise, etc.) and he brought up MC in his response? It means he thinks MC is the real answer for YOU and that he doesn't need to do those things yet. Especially if it's something he doesn't want to do or think he should have to do, in which case he could be looking to MC as something that will validate his position and isn't interested in changing anything until that time.



temperance said:


> he was mad because he said he thought I want to work on the marriage... he said he thinks I purposely sabotage our marriage.


Again he is GOING to be mad. This just further confirms my concern that he feels that attending MC is good enough. He thinks that continuing to push him to get his act together and change, or move out, is essentially the opposite of wanting to work on the marriage. To HIM, working on the marriage means dropping your crazy expectations while going to MC, where the MC will help you both sort out what is fair and what needs to change, and he thinks the MC will "rule" in his favor to some degree. So to HIM, continuing to push him is essentially counter to what his view of working on the marriage is. By insisting on certain changes, he could view that as sabotaging the marriage by seeking to make him unhappy/uncomfortable enough to push him away.

Certainly from his perspective, you could imagine him viewing your actions in a different way. From his angle, it might sound like you are saying, "Yes of course I want to work on the marriage. Now, you need to find a job, not later but right now. I'll give you two weeks to take a job somewhere, because even a temp agency would hire you today if you walked in and asked them, so you really have no excuse. You also need to go to the DMV and get your drivers license, because a lot of places won't hire you if you can't drive and show proof of that. I'm not giving you any more spending money in the mean time. I'll continue to pay for groceries for us, but that is all. We don't have discretionary money for cigarettes and alcohol right now. Until your first day of your new job, you'll need to be responsible for 90% of household duties, because it isn't fair to expect me to be the sole provider and handle the stress of that along with household chores while you play video games. If you can't accept these changes, then I'm going to have to insist that you move out until you figure out what sort of life you want for yourself, and we'll just see each other in MC."

All of that is perfectly reasonable, but from his angle, all of those requirements probably sound _*awful.*_ He has a deadline for getting a decent job, or else he has to take temp work? (Maybe fast food, road construction, etc.) He has to get a drivers license? No more smoking or drinking? More chores? Less fun and video games? "And you think that this is going to make me feel motivated to do MC _*for you?*_"

And yeah, he is going to play the victim game. Imagine any other spoiled child who is told to go clean his room and told to keep it clean. He'll kick, scream and cry, throw a tantrum, and hope that you'll ease up on him. For your husband, you've never insisted on any of these things before, so he has understandably never thought that they were a big deal. It is probably very confusing for him and makes him feel like all of this is happening all at once, completely out of the blue. You'll probably hear, "Why haven't you ever said anything about this before now?!" a lot.

Maybe it isn't a bad idea to look at other jobs, at least to see if it is possible to find a job you'd enjoy AND maintain your current income level, in which case it might be worth it. If you think you can handle maintaining your business however, that sounds like it is your preferred option.

I'm curious, is it possible for him to help you in the business? Even if it is just taking calls, processing orders, handling accounts receivable, etc.? I'm guessing you would have already thought of that if it were a possibility, but thought it was worth asking.


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## temperance (Jul 28, 2013)

Thanks cdbaker, you were right about the whole situation with the MC. In the second MC session he said he felt that the MC is bias and that she didn't focus on his issues. 

He was in a defensive mode. At the end, it is like a contract, that the MC told him he has no choice in this situation because he is the one who wants me to stay... and if he can't do the two things, which is getting his license and a job, I am leaving, plain and simple. She also told me I cannot just stop helping and supporting him ;( 

My lawyer has pretty much told me the same, except more bluntly... staying in the court of law here I have the obligation to support him for the next 10 years, pay for all his legal costs, if he needs educations in order to find a job he likes, and half of all my assets, and that he has to agree if I decide to sell any our my / "ours" assets.... IF I decide to separate/divorce. 

I moved back home, used up all my points and can't afford anymore hotels. I am 'trying' to work things out with him which is 'everything back to normal'... which lead me into a deep depression episode. Yea... with my business situation, financial stress and all these... I withdrew into that DARK PLACE. I have never felt this way before, can't drag myself up from bed, feeling Death is a better option. Felt that I am the biggest loser, everything is failing and I don't see a way out. He asked me whats wrong, I got so angry I was staring at him really don't know what to do or say. He got angry and asked me why I was so angry, why was I looking at him that way. I exploded... I just told him "I am angry because you are not trying HARD to find work" I went back to bed. I refused to eat, I refused to get out of bed, I was just going through the motion everyday... I guess my episode forced him to printed and passed out a few resumes that day.... 

My episode scared myself, I was suicidal and I knew it. 

But really? Is that what love is all about? I don't think men have such a thick skull that they just don't get it? Sorry I am not trying to bash men in general.... it just feels that way to me. 

I managed to dug myself out. I have to go to a meeting, and one of the business owner is going through some financial tough time with his business, and he reminded me that we forgot to live in the moment, and let my worries carry me away. Why worry about not having enough to pay the bills tomorrow, if we have enough to pay for food today. We never know what happen tomorrow. And dammit... I just got to cheques yesterday which I didn't expect from two clients who dragged their payments, not big ones but yes... enough to pay for food. Scary.


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