# Flirtatious or Friendly: Trying To Find A Solution



## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

I may have a problem with being “too friendly” according to my gf of 4yrs. A little background: I am mid 40’s and she late 50’s. We love each other and desire a life together. The trouble is there are constant fights over the same thing – either I or a female co-worker is accused of being too friendly and or flirting.

Upon our getting together the first thing I did was announce my happy relationship to the world; facebook posts, called my co-workers and family. I have worked with some of these individuals for 7 years and they too are like family in fact I used to call some of them my “sisters” and I was their “brother.” I am in sales and my co-workers are spread throughout the nation with only one other co-worker (a male) in my town. We see each other 3 times a year for conventions lasting 2 or 3 days. The time is spent 8 hrs a day in meetings and afterwards there are mandatory dinners our managers set up. After dinner there is finally a few hours of free time. My only desire at this point is joining my guy friends for drinks and a cigar, then it’s up to bed and get ready for another long day. 

My co-workers and I are not in an office and as such the only way to communicate is via phone and email. The nature of our job occasionally prevents contact during the day and the only time is early morning or late evening. The content is primarily work related, but sometimes becomes friendly or more personal. As in talking about what we did last weekend, how is “girlfriend’s name?” how is “boyfriend’s name, husband, kids?” are you guys going on any trips? etc. I (used to) ask them a few personal questions in the onset of our communication and then get down to business. In my opinion that’s fairly normal for co-workers, especially after a several years together.

The constant problem is my gf considers any and all communication with females to be either too friendly, flirtatious or inappropriate. I have explained to her my working relationship with these people from the start. I also have very clear rules in place since before I met my gf, to never get involved with a co-worker. I also do not find any of my co-workers my type or attractive and finally, since I’m in a relationship that I want to last forever I would not jeopardize it for a simple meaningless connection with any female. 

To my gf’s credit, she was perhaps dealt a hurdle only a few months into our relationship that tainted her opinion of me as well as any female co-worker. As such her trust has evaporated and now communication from any female is automatically taken badly.

When we first got together I had been single for a while and as such gained quite a few female friends on fb. Although, I hadn't communicated with any of them. I also had several female co-workers and one ex-girlfriend on there. She noticed this and called attention to it. I then removed the females whom I didn't know and forgotten about, the ex-girlfriend, and keeping only about 3 co-workers. She would see occasional fb posts, friendly joking mainly, and interpret them as “too close, flirtatious,” etc. I fought her long and hard on this. I explained that her impressions were wrong – we are not interested in each other, we've known each other for a long time and consider to be brother and sisters – like family. These co-workers would always ask how we were doing and would mention they would love to meet my gf. Meanwhile in the first 3-4 months I, and my gf, would tell stories of our past life getting a history of each other. Apparently she thought I was talking too much of my ex-wife and said she never wants to hear of her again. Looking back I am sure this was true, however, she was also describing events with several of her past relationships no less than I. I never spoke of my ex again unless she brought her up – which for some reason she does now on a continual basis. My ex would also call about 2 -3 times a year just to chat and see how life was going. She had gotten married and had a baby and was excited to share the news. She and I made it clear years before that we would remain friends but did not have any romantic feelings for each other and also had no intention of getting back together. I also relayed this information to my gf in the beginning of our relationship.

So, we have the female friends on fb whom I didn't know and didn't communicate with; the female co-workers their texts and phone calls coming in on my phone as well as some fb posts; too many stories of life with ex-wife and 2-3 calls a year from her. All these in the picture during the beginning year of what started out as the MOST AMAZING relationship I thought a man could ever have.

I know I didn't do things perfectly or respond quickly enough or take her side as I should have. But once she told me to not speak of the ex-wife, she was never spoken of again (Keep in mind my gf is still relaying past events of several of her exes) When I realized my fb had many female friend contacts I deleted them – didn't know them and didn't need them. After I realized my gf was taking every comment from my long-term female co-worker friends the wrong way, I stopped pro-actively communicating with them on fb and on phone. I also had her become friends with them, for the sake of transparency, and gave her my fb password. During this time of me not contacting any female, some of them would still contact me either for a brief chat or text. My gf would occasionally say, “I know you’re still talking to those women!” And just to keep the peace, I would lie and say NO. In the hopes she would stop focusing on something that wasn't a problem to begin with. After feeling disgusted by my actions I confessed and that only made things worse. Now I’m a “liar” and still a “flirt.” This has gotten so out of hand that now even my niece cannot make a funny joking comment on a fb photo of mine but she is also considered flirting! She has insinuated that perhaps I even have hidden emails, second cell phones, etc. All for the purpose of what? So I can chat it up with women whom I have no interest in apparently. Again, I felt and knew there was no communication with ANY female that was inappropriate, just that my gf for some reason was taking it this way. After my attempts of getting her to know these people involved, our history and business/personal relationships she still interpreted every communication as bad. I stopped communication and hid the communication if they contacted me. Afterwards I have not deleted any message, left my phone open, given email and fb passwords in the hopes of showing total transparency. But NOTHING helps. If I get a text from my female manager saying something like, “thanks for a good co-travel visit today and so glad we found a good sushi place.” There is an atomic explosion of emotion and I feel the wrath of my gf; my things are packed up and I’m thrown out of the house. 

We have gone to THREE counselors. We have talked about each and every situation, every person involved ad nauseam; I have stopped pro-actively communicating in every way; I have opened my life up plainly and tried to get her to know all people involved and I am still the bad guy, still looked upon as a liar, cheat, flirt, single-guy, etc. How is it possible that every female in my world including my happily married manager and happily married niece be inappropriate and flirting with me with nearly everything they say?

I have asked her many times what can I do to ensure you feel safe in our relationship? What do you need from me? Her answer has no specific information. She routinely checks my phone which I am fine with. Her only specific suggestion at this point is if a female calls for me to take the call on speaker phone so she can listen to what we say and how we talk. My response to her was that I know this won’t help because you already take any conversation on text or fb the wrong way and many have led to fights and even breakups. So if you hear a female on my phone being friendly, lively, and happy whatever their personality is then my life will be ruined. They will be accused of being too close too friendly and I will be accused of flirting, needing attention, etc.

What can be done here if anything to save this once amazing relationship…?


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

Sorry, Trailwalker, but your girlfriend sounds overly suspicious, jealous, needy, and controlling. She'll always be looking over your shoulder, never satisfied that your relationships with anything even remotely female is anything but a possible "other woman." I don't see how you can look forward to a life of constant suspicion and arguments. I wish you well, but I don't see a lot of happiness in your future. Good luck.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

For a lot or married couples or even committed non-married couples, having after hours, non-work related communication with an opposite sex friend/co-worker, crosses a boundary.

If your GF has been cheated on in the past, I can understand why she would have that boundary. Your hiding some of this communication or lying about them, just reinforces her suspicions.

That said, I do think she is reacting inappropriately. Have to have your conversations on speaker phone? Too much. Tell her that.

I know you've tried before, but you need to sit down with her again and get her to clearly state what she expects and what you can accept. If she won't give you a clear answer; tell her that until she does; you won't accept her complaining about things you haven't agreed on.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

Does she have more money than you do? Sounds like she does and doesn't believe you are in it with her for the right reasons. Since you have so many "female" friends galore, date a few of them and leave this woman alone. Get out of her life. She wants out. Leave her alone. Her gut feelings have you on radar and her late 50s friends are reinforcing them. Doesn't take a rocket-scientist.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Op if you plan on staying with your gf then you need to accept that this is how your relationship is always going to look. I believe her attitude to be over the top but she is not going to change no matter how much you try to reason. 

To each their own but I could not live that way.


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## 5Creed (May 29, 2011)

3 counselors later and she feels you are flirting with many women including your own niece?!? Run and get out of this relationship now or accept that your life together is going to be just this. What was in the beginning an amazing relationship is also going to include her insecurities about what you are up to and not trusting what you tell her. This is her problem and although I don't agree you should have been untruthful with her, I see your reasoning for doing it.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

I would've had her pack her bags after the second counselor. Far too overbearing and insecure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the age difference. Most men your age are chasing women in the 30-35 age range, which is 25-30 years younger. There is an inherent attractiveness difference that will only get worse as she passes 60. 

Rather than deal with her insecurity, she's getting nasty and controlling. What's so amazing?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I wouldn't personally have a committed relationship with a man who maintains the types of opposite-sex relationships you describe having with co-workers and exes. That's just one of my things. 

But I also wouldn't date a guy who did and then spend all my time harassing him about it, fighting, arguing, and running hither and yon trying to get him to change. 

I think you and your girlfriend are simply fundamentally incompatible. It's unlikely she's going to change her mind and suddenly be great with your female friends. So, if you aren't willing to end your opposite-sex friendships, then you'll need to end your relationship with your girlfriend. This isn't one of the situations where you can both get what you want without either having to sacrifice. This is a serious difference in how the two of you envision a committed relationship.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

Vulcan2013 said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned the age difference. Most men your age are chasing women in the 30-35 age range, which is 25-30 years younger. There is an inherent attractiveness difference that will only get worse as she passes 60.
> 
> Rather than deal with her insecurity, she's getting nasty and controlling. What's so amazing?


We have never had an issue with our age difference. In fact that is one of the many amazing things about this woman. She looks and acts much younger and to me is more attractive than most women my age.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

Rowan said:


> I wouldn't personally have a committed relationship with a man who maintains the types of opposite-sex relationships you describe having with co-workers and exes. That's just one of my things.
> 
> But I also wouldn't date a guy who did and then spend all my time harassing him about it, fighting, arguing, and running hither and yon trying to get him to change.
> 
> I think you and your girlfriend are simply fundamentally incompatible. It's unlikely she's going to change her mind and suddenly be great with your female friends. So, if you aren't willing to end your opposite-sex friendships, then you'll need to end your relationship with your girlfriend. This isn't one of the situations where you can both get what you want without either having to sacrifice. This is a serious difference in how the two of you envision a committed relationship.


Thank you for your reply. Perhaps I need to clarify: I do not maintain friendships with women. I have only my female manager, and a few female co-workers. These are mandatory individuals in my life due to my job. Conversations with them are initiated by them and since I know my gf doesn't care for let's say water cooler talk I try and keep it to business and as brief as possible. From my perspective we don't have a commitment issue but perhaps a misperception. And that's the reason for my post. I love this woman and am out of ideas.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

I will assume that your girlfriend works. Does she not have any interaction with men on the job? How about Facebook? I'd be willing to bet the same. I think it's ludicrous for anyone in a relationship to hold things like this over someone's head. It's just mind numbing that it happens and that others allow it to happen to them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

She sounds very insecure and overly suspicious. Her behavior would drive me insane; she is disrespecting you by showing how little trust she has in you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoveEnigma13 (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm seeing a big red flag that hasn't been picked up on. If this was all of a sudden, and it reads like it was, she could be projecting.

She could be doing inappropriate things and her guilt is pushing her to believe you are doing it as well.

"He who smelt it dealt it" "when you point your finger you have four pointing back" all that.


Take a look at the cheater's script and see if anything else fits.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Sometimes love isn't enough. I couldn't live like this at all.


> I know I didn't do things perfectly or respond quickly enough or take her side as I should have. But once she told me to not speak of the ex-wife, she was never spoken of again (Keep in mind my gf is still relaying past events of several of her exes)


Nope, this is ridiculous. I'm too old to play "do what I say, not what I do." You should have broken up after the first counselor, three is ridiculous. You shouldn't have lied, but she was out of control before you made you did. If you have to lie to someone to do something you enjoy, time to find someone new.


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

trailwalker said:


> Thank you for your reply. Perhaps I need to clarify: I do not maintain friendships with women. I have only my female manager, and a few female co-workers. These are mandatory individuals in my life due to my job. Conversations with them are initiated by them and since I know my gf doesn't care for let's say water cooler talk I try and keep it to business and as brief as possible. From my perspective we don't have a commitment issue but perhaps a misperception. And that's the reason for my post. I love this woman and am out of ideas.


I know you think that, and she may *say* that, but I don't think she *believes* it. Women decline in the sexual marketplace much more than men as they age. Middle-aged men also generally prefer younger women, by a huge margin. That may be amping up her underlying insecurity. 

Consider if you were dating a 22 yo hottie, and she worked surrounded by fit 25 yo men. She may stay true, but in a few years as she reaches her sexual peak, you'll be looking like an old man. 

Not saying to dump her, but if your behavior is normal and aboveboard, either she's controlling, and you'll never be happy, or she's crazy insecure, or both. This seems like it would be driving that. Just a thought.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> Her only specific suggestion at this point is if a female calls for me to take the call on speaker phone so she can listen to what we say and how we talk.
> 
> What can be done here if anything to save this once amazing relationship…?


Nothing outside her getting severe counseling for her insecurity.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

trailwalker said:


> Thank you for your reply. Perhaps I need to clarify: I do not maintain friendships with women. I have only my female manager, and a few female co-workers. These are mandatory individuals in my life due to my job. Conversations with them are initiated by them and since I know my gf doesn't care for let's say water cooler talk I try and keep it to business and as brief as possible. From my perspective we don't have a commitment issue but perhaps a misperception. And that's the reason for my post. I love this woman and am out of ideas.


I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong or that you aren't committed. I'm just pointing out that the two of you aren't compatible. However nuts it seems to you, she needs to be with someone who has zero social or business contact with other women. You're not that guy. Maybe that guy doesn't exist. In any case, three counselors haven't been able to help you fix this issue. That's a fundamental problem in what the two of you want from a partner. So, unless you're enjoying what's going on, you need to find a new partner whose needs better fit your own. And grant her the freedom to either get help or search for a man who is happy enough to live under this type of scrutiny.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Being somewhat in your situation, I can tell you it takes time and work.. 

You both honestly need to find some common ground somehow.. That is what me and my GF are doing..

All I can tell you is my GF talked and told me too much about her past.. Nutshell, she was a very hot piece of a$$ back then ( and she isn't at all bad looking now ) and she knew it.. We are talking 20 years ago. But for me it's like yesterday.. She isn't telling me to hurt me, but tells me because she wants to be open with me and tell me about her life before being married.. 

Part of me is a bit jealous because I sometimes feel I should have been doing what she was doing 20 years ago.. I am a relationship guy.. I date women for years and I just don't find anything wrong with the women I am with for the most part.. I am very selective in that way. But doing something like that I missed out on dating 20 women..

Could it be you telling her you dated all these women makes her jealous ? She just might be passive aggressive. So she hears the story but gets upset about it another way.. 

Myself I am very open about my feelings now a days.. Maybe too open.. When I hear a story from her I don't like, I tell her how it makes me feel and why..

I run through my own insecurities as well. But as attractive as my GF is.. She is insecure about me as well. 

Honestly I might get the time of day from a woman once a month maybe, but my GF gets hit on numerous times during the day.. Even when I am with her I see guys getting the broken neck if you know what I mean.. They want to look but can't because the wife or GF is with them. 

Recently I told her about a woman in her building giving me the time of day because I got annoyed about one of her stories.. She went ballistic.. I should have just STFU.. But it was insane how upset she got.. 

Its becoming much easier for us because we are becoming more open with what we feel and admitting we are being insecure. 

When my GF starts to talk about her past now or something reminds her of some story from her past.. I just say DON'T DO IT.. STFU... DON'T SAY IT... 

Sadly my GF has no filter.. She is dumb in the sense even if she was going to tell a story but then thinks about not telling me, she will say " Oh, nevermind I can't tell you that".. We are currently at the stage of me telling her just not to say anything because it makes my mind wander and then I need to know and then I snap and we fight.. So unless you want the fight don't tell me a thing. Don't even HINT that you have something to tell me that I won't like.. 

Conversely she gets upset because she knows all my relationships meant something to me so anytime I tell her a story she knows it was with someone special and not just a ONS or something like that.. So to her its like it had some meaning to me.. 

Its crazy stuff I know.. 

I know its very hard to convey this stuff. 

The best I can tell you is we are both committed to working on this and being together.. We love each other and we are both trying to figure out WTF is going on with us and why we get this way. 

Another thing we are exploring is the make up sex.. My therapist, Me and her all have said at one point or another we believe the make up sex is where the addiction is. Again I have gotten weird since my divorce emotion wise.. There are times are love making is so intense I can cry and that in turn does something to her.. So when I don't, she wonders why and wants me to.. I just get overwhelmed with OMFG I love you feelings and I just crumble.. 

So could it be something like that as well. 

If she is not admitting her insecurities then that is an issue in itself that you need to overcome.. You both have to be open to admit you're fvcking up somewhere along the line or it will never get fixed..


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

She may be at least 10 years older than you but that's at least 15 in maturity years...You need to examine yourself to see exactly what you love about her...Is she a Mommy figure? You really need to be dating someone at least 5 years younger than yourself which would place you both at the same maturity level. Save yourself from future emotional tragedy...X2. Maybe she can't cope with your immaturity. Are you suggesting she's the boss at your job for her to be observing and assessing your water cooler chit-chat? How the hecks would she know whats going on at your job if you aren't telling her?

What are you doing? Conforming to an invisible "My GF Police Force" at work? Sounds like you both are emotional sado-masochists...

Here's a clue: YOU do not love her and SHE does not love you.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

trailwalker said:


> I may have a problem with being “too friendly” according to my gf of 4yrs. A little background: I am mid 40’s and she late 50’s. We love each other and desire a life together. The trouble is there are constant fights over the same thing – either I or a female co-worker is accused of being too friendly and or flirting.
> 
> Upon our getting together the first thing I did was announce my happy relationship to the world; facebook posts, called my co-workers and family. I have worked with some of these individuals for 7 years and they too are like family in fact I used to call some of them my “sisters” and I was their “brother.” I am in sales and my co-workers are spread throughout the nation with only one other co-worker (a male) in my town. We see each other 3 times a year for conventions lasting 2 or 3 days. The time is spent 8 hrs a day in meetings and afterwards there are mandatory dinners our managers set up. After dinner there is finally a few hours of free time. My only desire at this point is joining my guy friends for drinks and a cigar, then it’s up to bed and get ready for another long day.
> 
> ...


I'm having a problem with your post.

Please ask your gf to join us and give her thoughts.

Otherwise, I'd say respect her wishes.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

No, don't ask your girlfriend here yet. You just got here.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

I have a gal somewhat like that, OP. And SHE's the one who had the affair. Go figure.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, don't ask your girlfriend here yet. You just got here.


I agree. Stick it out here a little longer. The gf can come here at some point, well any time you choose, but I also advise not too soon.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

She is actually accusing you of wanting to commit incest with your niece. Yes. Seriously. That is how sick and warped she is.

You deserve better.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

Calibre1212 said:


> She may be at least 10 years older than you but that's at least 15 in maturity years...You need to examine yourself to see exactly what you love about her...Is she a Mommy figure? You really need to be dating someone at least 5 years younger than yourself which would place you both at the same maturity level. Save yourself from future emotional tragedy...X2. Maybe she can't cope with your immaturity. Are you suggesting she's the boss at your job for her to be observing and assessing your water cooler chit-chat? How the hecks would she know whats going on at your job if you aren't telling her?
> 
> What are you doing? Conforming to an invisible "My GF Police Force" at work? Sounds like you both are emotional sado-masochists...
> 
> Here's a clue: YOU do not love her and SHE does not love you.


Believe me we aren't still here after 4 years because it's fun. We wouldn't have stayed if we didn't love each other and we both have left other relationships for far less. She is hung up on, in her terms, "inappropriate behavior" and apparently anything more than pure businesslike communication even with people I've known for years is too much and we are labeled as too close. (We must remain highly professional and very brief with contact with opposite sexes especially when it comes to phone and fb messages.) The problem since day one is I don't know where her boundary line is and myself and everyone in my world has crossed it at some point multiple times. Things that haven't bothered any previous gf and quite frankly if roles were switched it wouldn't bother me because I am secure in myself and relationship. Most of the anger is directed at other individuals but I'm in the line of fire because apparently I "encourage it..."


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I'm having a problom with your post.
> 
> Please ask your gf to join us and give her thoughts.
> 
> Otherewise, I'd say respect her wishes.



That is the current obstacle...I actually have respected all her wishes. Yet there are continual problems. The only female contact (and we're talking brief and unsolicited messages on fb or my phone) I have is with my mom, my happily married niece (the only reason I have occasional contact with her is because she has a young daughter my great-niece), my happily married manager and a few co-workers. It would be impossible to avoid talking to any of these people and frankly ridiculous. Her real wish I believe is for no female to ever contact me under any circumstance because they have all proven to her they cannot communicate without being "inappropriate or too close." I am of course always in the wrong when an unsolicited text comes in from a co-worker and will appear to her as too friendly. That's the sticky part because she cannot define too friendly and I honestly don't think it's possible. We discuss work primarily because that is our JOB, we all are friendly people because we are in sales again that's our JOB and since I've known these people for so long we will also ask the usual question of how's your weekend, etc. We aren't just picking up the phone and chatting because we're bored or our spouses don't give us what we need.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> She is actually accusing you of wanting to commit incest with your niece. Yes. Seriously. That is how sick and warped she is.
> 
> You deserve better.


It is ridiculous, thank you! Without getting too off topic here I hope, I had to explain that nephews and nieces usually have a fondness for their uncles and aunts. Mine certainly do and it makes me proud when they say, we love you uncle, we miss you uncle. (I live in different states from them and only see them maybe once a year.) Both my nephew (38yrs old) and niece (35yrs old) do this but the niece gets hammered because she's a female and of course is just "too close" or has some attraction for me, whatever. This has been a REALLY difficult one and one of the oddest and most maddening things I've ever encountered.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

trailwalker said:


> Believe me we aren't still here after 4 years because it's fun. We wouldn't have stayed if we didn't love each other and we both have left other relationships for far less. She is hung up on, in her terms, "inappropriate behavior" and apparently anything more than pure businesslike communication even with people I've known for years is too much and we are labeled as too close. (We must remain highly professional and very brief with contact with opposite sexes especially when it comes to phone and fb messages.) The problem since day one is I don't know where her boundary line is and myself and everyone in my world has crossed it at some point multiple times. Things that haven't bothered any previous gf and quite frankly if roles were switched it wouldn't bother me because I am secure in myself and relationship. Most of the anger is directed at other individuals but I'm in the line of fire because apparently I "encourage it..."


Nah...Don't buy it....Her hypervigilance is hurting you but you loooove her...Not! You do not love yourself...Start there. You cannot possibly love her, sorry.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

Rowan said:


> I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong or that you aren't committed. I'm just pointing out that the two of you aren't compatible. However nuts it seems to you, she needs to be with someone who has zero social or business contact with other women. You're not that guy. Maybe that guy doesn't exist. In any case, three counselors haven't been able to help you fix this issue. That's a fundamental problem in what the two of you want from a partner. So, unless you're enjoying what's going on, you need to find a new partner whose needs better fit your own. And grant her the freedom to either get help or search for a man who is happy enough to live under this type of scrutiny.


Thank you for your reply. This is what I have struggled coming to grips with but you maybe correct. I had for months now been thinking of doing the ridiculous and just to prove once again my commitment to her I would quit my job and do something else. I have an incredible job and it would be outrageous to have to do this just to save the relationship but I actually have been considering it. 

Concerning interactions with co-workers, I have tried to explain that even though there are females contacting me on my personal phone (again work related talk from co-workers) that is exponentially far less than the amount of contact I'd have in a typical job or office setting and does anyone really know what may occur when the spouse is at work...? Eight hours a day, five days a week seeing people in their ups and downs, lunching every day and maybe birthday parties after work etc. I see these people only 3 times a year and I make sure to never be alone with any woman, I'm always in a group. At least this way she is seeing all that ever happens.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> Things that haven't bothered any previous gf and quite frankly if roles were switched it wouldn't bother me because I am secure in myself


Well, like I said, nothing will improve without her going to extensive, long-term therapy to learn to love herself.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

Changing jobs for her only validates and encourages her outrageous behavior. I cannot imagine a future life of true happiness under these circumstances.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

Oh Jeez...Looks like you got a monster problem you insist on living in. Yet you are the "normal" one. 4 years and you have remained unscathed...Lordy. Let me name the monster according to how you describe it (and we don't know her side of the story yet)...Psychosis. How's about you each get an evaluation, just for the fun of it?

I guarantee, you are coming from a family of origin history of addiction: Either parent. She was probably married to an alcoholic too. What's yours and her marital histories anyway? Both divorced, never married, etc.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Calibre1212 said:


> Oh Jeez...Looks like you got a monster problem you insist on living in. Yet you are the "normal" one. 4 years and you have remained unscathed...Lordy. Let me name the monster according to how you describe it (and we don't know her side of the story yet)...Psychosis. How's about you each get an evaluation, just for the fun of it?
> 
> I guarantee, you are coming from a family of origin history of addiction: Either parent. She was probably married to an alcoholic too. What's yours and her marital histories anyway? Both divorced, never married, etc.


As rough around the edges Calibre might be with some of this stuff I have to agree on the family history part. Me and my Therapist have been going that route about my family and why I do certain things.

Another thing my therapist says sometimes people are just not ready to let go.. Which is directed to me and my relationship and you know what he might be right.. But that's okay too.. 

I also agree that we really don't see exactly what she is saying is inappropriate or over friendly.. 

Could you post something close to verbatim and just redacting any personal info ? 

She just might be right and you just don't see it. 

My GF gets a lot of attention. I think sometimes she sugar coats it not to get me upset, but then there are times I truly do believe she doesn't really see the pick up. 

A perfect example of this.. The father of a child she is teaching decided to tell her what a playboy he was before he was married and basically tell her that he dated so many women.. The nanny for the child expressed that he sort of hit on her ( meaning the nanny ). The nanny is in her early 20s.. 

He of course told this to her while they were alone outside. The wife asked my GF what he had said.. She of course didn't tell her what he said. 

But even as I expressed to her he was hitting on you and testing the waters to see how you would react. The GF blew me off like I was being silly. 

I sat down with her and just asked her honestly if she was trying to jerk me off or honestly didn't feel he was hitting on her. I explained to her I needed to understand how she views this.. 

In the end she didn't see it has hitting on her. I asked her then why didn't she tell the wife the truth about what he said.. The GF says she didn't want to upset the wife.. I said about what ? What he said.. 

It was a circular debate.. She felt he just said something stupid, but wasn't hitting on her.. It was as if he said his wife was getting fat.. It was odd, but I get it.. 

My point is maybe you see things that way as well.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Calibre1212 said:


> Oh Jeez...Looks like you got a monster problem you insist on living in. Yet you are the "normal" one. 4 years and you have remained unscathed...Lordy. Let me name the monster according to how you describe it (and we don't know her side of the story yet)...Psychosis. How's about you each get an evaluation, just for the fun of it?
> 
> I guarantee, you are coming from a family of origin history of addiction: Either parent. She was probably married to an alcoholic too. What's yours and her marital histories anyway? Both divorced, never married, etc.


This is what I was thinking. You are in a dysfunctional situation, yet you say you won't do anything about it except change YOU to meet HER needs. Not entirely healthy.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

trailwalker said:


> A little background: I am mid 40’s and she late 50’s.


I think I see the problem. When you're in your mid 50's, she'll be pushing 70. You're like the guy getting ready to drive through the desert my man. You want to know there's a few gas stations along the route.


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## always_hopefull (Aug 11, 2011)

To me there is much more to this story. If I recall correct his gf is already here and has since broken off the relationship due to his "perceived" relationship. I cannot search TB's history on my phone, but he has commented on her original thread. The consensus there was that his behaviour has been inappropriate.

Trailblazer, please elaborate on this comment "To my gf’s credit, she was perhaps dealt a hurdle only a few months into our relationship that tainted her opinion of me as well as any female co-worker. As such her trust has evaporated and now communication from any female is automatically taken badly." If this statement is correct, what exactly have you done to help her build trust?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What's her user name?


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

always_hopefull said:


> To me there is much more to this story. If I recall correct his gf is already here and has since broken off the relationship due to his "perceived" relationship. I cannot search TB's history on my phone, but he has commented on her original thread. The consensus there was that his behaviour has been inappropriate.
> 
> Trailblazer, please elaborate on this comment "To my gf’s credit, she was perhaps dealt a hurdle only a few months into our relationship that tainted her opinion of me as well as any female co-worker. As such her trust has evaporated and now communication from any female is automatically taken badly." If this statement is correct, what exactly have you done to help her build trust?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Correct!

If you take things at face value without knowing the people and their friendship or relationship history then most anything can appear what it's not, generally speaking. 

What have I done? I have explained who these people are and what they mean to me in terms of nothing more than co-worker friend status. I have gotten her to become friends with them on fb and also tried to get her to meet them in person. I explained these people (who are in relationships themselves) had never before tried to sabotage previous relationships with what she deems as inappropriate comments. Also I have shown her they all actually want the best for me and that includes to have a happy, successful relationship with this woman. So, my question to her is since this is the reality of the situation why to get so upset at a non-threatening comment from a long-term co-worker friend (I mean these people were not strangers picked up in a bar and maintained continuous contact with for no reason.) One person is my niece for godssake. But they all eventually get thrown into her "list of women." 

If I wanted to maintain chatty insignificant relationships with the opposite sex I would not be in an exclusive relationship with her in the first place. I am mid 40's desiring a monogamous relation with one woman... her. If she has a problem with how females communicate I honestly do not know how to make them behave to fit her standards. That's why I do not initiate communication anymore and if someone contacts me I try and keep the content professional and to business. I also tried to get off fb to prevent any further confusion but she insisted I stay so she could see "how we communicate." But she already takes even the most simple comment (by them) badly.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

always_hopefull said:


> Trailblazer, please elaborate on this comment "To my gf’s credit, she was perhaps dealt a hurdle only a few months into our relationship that tainted her opinion of me as well as any female co-worker. As such her trust has evaporated and now communication from any female is automatically taken badly." If this statement is correct, what exactly have you done to help her build trust?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I meant to comment on that as well. 

Again reflecting on what happen between me and the current GF.. 

Simply put.. She had guy friends.. The guys friends all at one point in time wanted to date her. 

One guy friend actually broke off their friendship of 20+ years. This guy was around during her entire 20 year marriage/relationship with her husband. He broke it off because, after seeing her dating other men after her separation from her husband that he felt were not worth her or beneath her. He felt and confessed to her that he felt it should be their time together, that he waited around all this time that he should be given a chance.. He could not stand around feeling like he did and see her dating other men.. So he ended the friendship.

The other guys friends stuck around. She expressed that at one point or another they had issues with the guys she was dating.. The guys she was dating understandably had issues with these guy friends.. 

None of the men she dated ever seen the things I did on her facebook messages or text messages between them. 

Again simply put.. The messages where to personal and expressed innuendos about exchanging sex for rent money as an example. I also felt she was too sweet with them as well. Hey honey, hugs and kisses.. ETC.. 

I got pretty pissed and told her they were done.. It was me or them.. She made it clear that she never dated these guys and nothing ever happen between them or that they were never FWB.. I made the choice to believe her.. 

Months later I caught her still talking to one of the guys. I snapped.. I fvcking yelled at her.. I made a scene in her hallway as she chased me into the hallway from her apt in her building.. I did it purposely to embarrass her.. I didn't care.. 

I looked at all her messages that night.. I found nothing out of line.. Her reasoning was because of how I was and she needed to talk to someone about it.. I told her find a female friend to talk to..

But that along with her originally downplaying these so called guy friends blew a big part of my trust with her. Even though she has done nothing since to question her trust I still punish her for it.. I just felt I was lied to, too much, too soon into the relationship.. Again there was no cheating or anything and has been transparent since.. 

Honestly I can tell you, she has taken some sh!t from me and still stuck around.. But I have an inherent trust issue from my Ex wife that is hard to get over sometimes.. I try to keep it under control most of the time, but there are times I just lose control of it..

So again my point..

Depending on her past this sh!t just sticks with you.. You're just always on your guard to getting screwed over..

Heck I know there are some people here that already been through 2 affairs in 2 marriages, I can only imagine how they feel.. 

My GF tells all the time trying to reassure me that she would never do anything like that to me, knowing how painful it was for me.. Again its just me losing control and needing to be reassured.. 
A friend of mine who has seen me go through this all simply told me he is afraid of what would happen to me if I had to go through this again and I agree with him..

Nutshell its a fvcking scary feeling to live with and hard to let go..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You haven't addressed any of the issues that have been brought up here. Are you here for help or validation?


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

Poor you...The perfect partner. Oops! I mean victim. Yet, you have not answered even one of the salient questions. This is where you keep tripping over yourself:

"Things that haven't bothered any previous gf and quite frankly if roles were switched it wouldn't bother me because I am secure in myself." 

Yet you stay in it with her, negating your very own statement. How secure are you? Zero. If you were secure in yourself you would see that her behavior, according to you, is unacceptable. And you would have recognized it in the first 6 months of your relationship, in enough time to not be stuck in it for 4 years, then complain about it. You accepted it for 4 years, now you want her to change. 

Ah dare say my boy, you are the one with a bigger problem than she has. Hers can be controlled with meds. Yours can't. You are in denial up your ying-yang. What is loveable about living, breathing and walking on "egg-shells"?


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

I am the "crazy girlfriend" and my user name here is Star2916.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

And by the way, we are not longer together. I break yo with him 1 month ago.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

Get some therapy TW. You were subjected to some serious punishment as a child...Probably knelt on rice grains in the corner for hours. You are 45. Get out of the egg-shell living and learn to live and breathe freely.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

Kudos to you Star2916. Enjoy your life now.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

Hardtohandle said:


> ...I also agree that we really don't see exactly what she is saying is inappropriate or over friendly..
> 
> Could you post something close to verbatim and just redacting any personal info ? .


Here are three examples, there are many more:

The most recent battle was with a text from my female manager after we spent a day of co-travel. Selling products to customers - managers ride with reps about once a month and also go to lunch. I am on a team of 8 other reps. There are about 35 managers in the company that ride with their reps about once a month making sales calls and going to lunch.
Here is her statement: "Landed back in Cali, Thanks for everything, I appreciate everything you do for the team, your territory and mostly your undying love for sushi. mmmmm!" I responded by saying, "Thank you and appreciate your support and encouragement for career and personal endeavors, glad we found a new sushi place." My gf sees this and says, "Unbelievable here we go again, another one, flirting, too close! You have to have these women around you all the time!" She explodes, yelling and cussing at me and her, packs up my things and throws me out of her house.

In another instance years ago, I had my gf become friends on fb with one of my long-time co-worker friends. They exchanged a few pleasantries. I have known this co-worker prior to my gf and is about her age. She is one of the first people I directly notified of meeting my gf and told how excited I was. She is extraordinarily friendly with everyone and is always telling reps to "come out to Florida to visit" for some reason. A few years ago she came out to meet her friends and wanted to meet me and my gf for a drink. Months after we all met she commented on a fb photo of mine: "Think of you often, come and out and see me." This is normal behavior for this person as she is always inviting people to come visit at her lakeside home. My gf took this statement as her personally inviting me alone and not her. I felt this absolutely not true. She could have said, think of you guys instead of singly me or could have said you guys come out to visit. To me she was inferring she thinks of me AND my gf and also inviting both of us out. However, my gf didn't take it this way and exploded on me saying "she is flirting with you right out in public!"

During this meeting with my gf and co-worker friend she commented saying "isn't it great to be in a passionate relationship with someone you love!" I said, yes it is. She continued by emphatically saying, "you know it baby!" And I responded also, "You know it baby!" To be clear, I had used this phrase ever since the Austin Powers movies where he sticks the word baby at the end of many statements and I also used to say this phrase with my guy friends while watching football if the team scored or whatever. I am NOT calling her baby neither was I calling my guy friends baby. But when we got home my gf explodes on me saying, "You called that woman baby right in front of me!" I tried to explain the meaning of how I use that phrase but she would not accept it and still doesn't.

And one more: years ago I posted a fb photo of me smoking a cigar. All you could see in the photo were my fingers and the cigar. My niece commented, "You could be a hand model!" I knew this was in reference to the Seinfeld episode where George becomes a hand model. She, her husband and brother and I all had been big Seinfeld fans for years and were always making reference to the show. My gf sees this and explodes by saying, "Your niece is flirting with you right out in public and you're doing nothing about it! That little FU**ING BI**CH WH**E...!!!"

So there are your verbatim statements...

Maybe I'm just totally blind here and all these statements are direct flirts to me? But I don't think so. I know the people involved and their true intentions. I've tried to explain to my gf her theories and concerns are invalid and to please calm down about everybody but it doesn't help. This is also why I tried to get off fb years ago because I don't know how she will react to a statement from any female, usually it's bad. This is also why I went to THREE consulars to try and understand if I'm bringing on this supposed flirtatious behavior and if not how should my gf react when she sees a comment, etc. Let's get to the root of the problem, deal with it, make safeguards to prevent any further confusion and get on with living life.

Nothing helps...


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

Calibre1212 said:


> Poor you...The perfect partner. Oops! I mean victim. Yet, you have not answered even one of the salient questions. This is where you keep tripping over yourself:
> 
> "Things that haven't bothered any previous gf and quite frankly if roles were switched it wouldn't bother me because I am secure in myself."
> 
> ...


What exactly behavior are you referring to towards me? I am NOT communicating with ANY woman unless it's work related....


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

Ammm...She dumped you a month ago. What is your motivation for being on here?


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

Calibre1212 said:


> Ammm...She dumped you a month ago. What is your motivation for being on here?


To gain you stellar albeit jaded advice obviously... What are YOU doing on here?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Okay, I remember both of your threads and I just read them again. You are incompatible move on she did. The he said/she said is ridiculous. Yeah. maybe you should have toned down the contact, but why would you stay with anyone accusing you of lusting after a family member? Don't give me the "but I love her" claptrap.

If you were younger, I'd believe you were mad because she broke up first.


trailwalker said:


> To gain you stellar albeit jaded advice obviously... What are YOU doing on here?


A No U jab? Are you really in your forties?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> To gain you stellar albeit jaded advice obviously... What are YOU doing on here?


But you make it sound like you're a couple still, and the other poster says you broke up a month ago. I'm confused. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

Calibre1212 said:


> Ammm...She dumped you a month ago. What is your motivation for being on here?


Like I said in the beginning. I am seeking help to know how to get this relationship back on track. I have eliminated ALL contact with ANY female. I do not initiate communication with any female. So, what else can I do...? Seriously I really to not know.

I cannot prevent contact with my female manager or my female co-workers. The current co-workers haven't yet posed threatening comments via text or fb but judging from the past that could change in an instant. Then what? I really don't know how to show my gf (former gf) that I am not keeping inappropriate relations with anyone. If she takes someone's comment badly what could I have done to prevent that?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

If someone choses to misinterpret something, or to take offense at something, there may not be anything you can do to prevent it. Based on your side of the story, it doesn't seem like you did anything wrong. I'm on my phone, so finding her side of the story isn't going to happen unless someone posts a link. But my thinking, she was insecure in the relationship and unreasonably jealous over interaction with females. You went way beyond what I'd consider doing to soothe her insecurities. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

Like I said...She dumped you a month ago...There's no on-track to get on. Are you obsessive too? This is the Infidelity forum on Talk About Marriage. You are not married to the woman, there was no cheating, she dumped you. So how does your story even fit in here? You want to get her back? Get therapy first.

You trying to force her to take you back because you "didn't do anything wrong" except be extremely attractive to women in the family and in the general public?...That's you crime? So she MUST take you back because you are innocently faithful? She should know she wrongfully dumped you? Listen buddy, get help soon.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

So many possibilities, none of them good. 

Your GF (or is it ex?) is exhibiting extreme insecurity over your female friends/coworkers. That could be for many reasons, but they all center on her issues. 

She also seems to be trying to isolate you from them. Which is another problem all together. Maybe get you to quit your job and become Dependant on her so she can really start to push you around. 

So, I don't see why you would want to be with her. What do you get out of the relationship?

That said, I think once you commit to someone, you really have to change your relationships with opposite gender friends and co-workers. Any contact with an Ex is done, over caput. Really, that should be a no brainier. The conversation you quoted with your boss seems fine. If that is the one she kicked you out over, i don't get it. I could see why she got upset over the "baby" stuff. Yes, it's a funny movie reference. But let's face it, Austin Powers was a playboy caricature. It's flirtatious, and could easily be misinterpreted.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

SHE WAS ACCUSING YOU OF A BURGEONING INCESTUOUS RELATIONSHIP why would you want to get it back on track?


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

Sorry I had to trigger you TW...You needed a dose of reality. Take some responsibility for yourself, your actions and your choices. AND recognize that by being her "good lil boy", you can't control hers.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

star2916 said:


> And by the way, we are not longer together. I break yo with him 1 month ago.


Thanks, star, always good to have access to the other side. Interesting that he didn't post you had broken up.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> years ago I posted a fb photo of me smoking a cigar. All you could see in the photo were my fingers and the cigar. My niece commented, "You could be a hand model!" I knew this was in reference to the Seinfeld episode where George becomes a hand model. She, her husband and brother and I all had been big Seinfeld fans for years and were always making reference to the show. My gf sees this and explodes by saying, "Your niece is flirting with you right out in public and you're doing nothing about it! That little FU**ING BI**CH WH**E...!!!"


star, since you're here, what say you? Is this how you'd describe it?


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

Calibre1212 said:


> Sorry I had to trigger you TW...You needed a dose of reality. Take some responsibility for yourself, your actions and your choices.


Thanks...


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> SHE WAS ACCUSING YOU OF A BURGEONING INCESTUOUS RELATIONSHIP why would you want to get it back on track?


True...


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

$150 of my time for free...Because you are worth it. I won't even bother reading the history...That will cost both of you...


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Totally Confused, this is the link , Not sure how to do that.

I am not going to post anymore because this is his thread but one of the things he does, he is very crafty in stating a series of perfectly true things — keeping out just one small crucial detail, which would shed an entirely new light on things. So, he lies artfully.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

The Artful Dodger...I see. He can get help if he faces it. The soliloquies, the sentence structure, the language/word usage does imply compulsion. Don't take him back until he gets about a year's worth of good therapy. Which will make you approx 59 by the time he is ready for a real and serious relationship. Enjoy your life chica. You only live once.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

P.S. Check out some guys in the mid-60s age range. You will be much more happy with one of them. Cougarnomics is Disasternomics. This one is still a kiddie.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So when I realized you two had this battle of the posts going on, I actually went back and read them all (I think). So here are some of the inconsistencies I'd like more information on before I give any more advice, because it looks like you two are not telling the real truth; you're each giving YOUR truth. So what's the real one? 



> Some pieces of star’s version:
> he had told me that her current husband has told her not to have any contact with him , but he offered a solution, : just change my name... so he doesn't know you are talking to me. So far, they still talk to each other every 2 weeks or so, at least.
> 
> he does reply to her. And will go to another room to do so, and will never share that info, just until now, the last blow up.
> ...


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

After going back through the posting history of the two of you... If trained professionals with the two of you in the same room can't make headway with you, there's not much chance for the forum to help you. Move on, and good luck in the future.

C


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

And by move on, I was referring to your relationship. Not trying to tell you to leave the forum. 

C


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

turnera said:


> So when I realized you two had this battle of the posts going on, I actually went back and read them all (I think). So here are some of the inconsistencies I'd like more information on before I give any more advice, because it looks like you two are not telling the real truth; you're each giving YOUR truth. So what's the real one?
> 
> Some pieces of star’s version:
> he had told me that her current husband has told her not to have any contact with him , but he offered a solution, : just change my name... so he doesn't know you are talking to me. So far, they still talk to each other every 2 weeks or so, at least.
> ...


This is in regards to communication with my x-wife. Since I divorced in 2007 I made a habit not to contact my ex so that she would not get the impression I was still interested and wanted to get back together. I felt it a better approach for her to contact me. Over the years she would contact every few months (just to see how things were going: jobs, family, relationships, etc.) and by the time I met my gf here, she had also met and engaged someone and only contacted about once a year. Also the idea of contact with the ex every two weeks is a total exaggeration - Once or twice a year was all. She contacted to let me know she was having a baby and this was very big news since it was her first and she was just over 40 at the time. My ex said her husband didn't appreciate her contacting me and I told her jokingly to change my name in her phone. Yes, I know that looks VERY bad and looking back I should not even have joked this. But like I said I was joking and my ex knew it and she didn't change my name by the way. I relayed all this information to my gf. Again, if I was being serious and needing constant communication with my ex I would have NEVER told any of this to my gf. It was around that time my gf says she doesn't want to hear any more talk of my ex. I said okay no problem and didn't speak of her again. (Keep in mind still continuing are the vast amount of stories of my gf's previous relationships and her suitors.) Then one day a year or so later my gf, her granddaughter and I had finished swimming and were relaxing by the pool. We got up to rinse off and have dinner. When I walked upstairs to plug in my phone I noticed a text from my ex which asked if my niece also had her baby. I responded a quick yes and plugged in the phone. After showering I was met by my gf who had checked my phone and went bananas over thinking I had “gone upstairs to take chat with my x-wife in private” and "to hide communication with another women and do things behind her back." Keep in mind it was my gf who told me to NEVER talk of my ex again...

Here again is a situation where I am NOT the initiator of communication. I am the one being contacted.

So in this instance what should I have done?
1 - Tell my gf I just got a text from the ex which she already told me not to speak of and perhaps wait to respond to her if my gf says it's okay?
2 - do what I did, respond briefly to the text and not speak of it obeying my gf's wishes?
3 - Ignore the text altogether and never respond to any communication to the ex?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> This is in regards to communication with my x-wife. Since I divorced in 2007 I made a habit not to contact my ex so that she would not get the impression I was still interested and wanted to get back together. I felt it a better approach for her to contact me. Over the years she would contact every few months (just to see how things were going: jobs, family, relationships, etc.) and by the time I met my gf here, she had also met and engaged someone and only contacted about once a year. Also the idea of contact with the ex every two weeks is a total exaggeration - Once or twice a year was all.


So, star, is this true? IS it only twice a year? Do you have records of more calls?


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Just from what Turnera posted, I think you both have issues that you just don't want to address and admit and fix..

Some of your stuff seems flirty TW and there is probably more. 

Star does have some insecurity issues that she needs to admit, address and work on.

At first when my GF told me about someone hitting on her I would take offense to it.. I took it as her firing a shot across the bow of my ship.. Basically warning me that if I didn't treat her well someone else was ready and waiting to do it..

So I would fire back when someone gave me the time of day. Granted it wasn't no near the numbers she gets. But one was good enough. In the end I pushed enough on her to know I just need ONE HONEST GOOD WOMAN by my side.. She can leave me and fvck 100 guys for all I care.. Its won't make me a **** in this day and age.. All I need is one woman.. 

I needed to understand she wasn't rubbing this in my face.. She just needs attention. The minute I tell her she is beautiful and other sweet things, she falls apart.. She becomes this mushy loving woman all over me..

She is learning to understand herself as well. Through every fight we are learning something. Just yesterday she was upset and getting upset with me.. I just told her stop.. I love you.. Don't go down this road to fight.. Lets not do this.. I told her fight the urge to fight.. Find the reason NOT to fight.. 

She did.. 

I truly believe that me and the GF are trying to fix ourselves.. 

I don't think either you or her or the both of you were ready for this.

In beginning we both used to break up with each other left and right.. Now breaking up is off the table.. We don't say anything that hints at that and even if we argue we bring it up directly that we are arguing and NOT breaking up.. 

Again STAR might not be ready to make this type of commitment for this relationship.. She might like this sort of thing.

For me and the GF it just became tiresome all this fighting..


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

trailwalker said:


> This is in regards to communication with my x-wife. Since I divorced in 2007 I made a habit not to contact my ex so that she would not get the impression I was still interested and wanted to get back together. I felt it a better approach for her to contact me. Over the years she would contact every few months (just to see how things were going: jobs, family, relationships, etc.) and by the time I met my gf here, she had also met and engaged someone and only contacted about once a year. Also the idea of contact with the ex every two weeks is a total exaggeration - Once or twice a year was all. She contacted to let me know she was having a baby and this was very big news since it was her first and she was just over 40 at the time. My ex said her husband didn't appreciate her contacting me and I told her jokingly to change my name in her phone. Yes, I know that looks VERY bad and looking back I should not even have joked this. But like I said I was joking and my ex knew it and she didn't change my name by the way. I relayed all this information to my gf. Again, if I was being serious and needing constant communication with my ex I would have NEVER told any of this to my gf. It was around that time my gf says she doesn't want to hear any more talk of my ex. I said okay no problem and didn't speak of her again. (Keep in mind still continuing are the vast amount of stories of my gf's previous relationships and her suitors.) Then one day a year or so later my gf, her granddaughter and I had finished swimming and were relaxing by the pool. We got up to rinse off and have dinner. When I walked upstairs to plug in my phone I noticed a text from my ex which asked if my niece also had her baby. I responded a quick yes and plugged in the phone. After showering I was met by my gf who had checked my phone and went bananas over thinking I had “gone upstairs to take chat with my x-wife in private” and "to hide communication with another women and do things behind her back." Keep in mind it was my gf who told me to NEVER talk of my ex again...
> 
> Here again is a situation where I am NOT the initiator of communication. I am the one being contacted.
> 
> ...


Isn't there a reason you got divorced ? Isn't there a reason she is called the Ex wife ?

You have no kids with her so what is the point ? 

TW the more I hear the more I think the both of you feed the fire. And you both don't have the fvcking balls to admit it.. Trust me the minute you both stop being jerk offs to each other it gets better. Not over night.. But it gets better.. I had to resist the will to fire back at the GF and to stop stirring the pot of Sh!t we had going.. 

I can openly admit it is in my nature to fight and argue.. It is in my nature to lash back and attack. Anyone who is a cop or fireman will tell you, you live and die by your mouth in our jobs.. Men will fire jabs at each other and each others spouses just to see who has a thin skin.. Guys purposely do it to piss someone off. 

If she wants to fix this stuff, you both have to admit your weaknesses..

I agree with Turnera here.. One says its twice a week and one says its once a year.. 

I can't imagine that you CAN'T get your cellphone records online.. Redact the sh!t out of it and post it up.. If star is exaggerating, then make her eat her words.. Show her how off base she is here in front of everyone.. 

My GF thought it was okay to talk about past relationships until my therapist told her no it isn't.. She was shocked.. But it wasn't until she heard it from him did it hold any weight.. I was just being a jerk off when I said it.. Of course I would call them her wh0re stories.. I would tell her no one wants to hear your wh0re stories, especially me.. Or I would entice and provoke her to tell her wh0re stories in front of my friends and see what they think or how they would react.. 

4 years of throwing digs at each other just don't help sh!t..


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Turnera, look at my only thread again, and you will find the answer there. 

I am probably too conservative or traditional when it comes to relationships. I am not "single focus" about anything else, but I have a problem with anyone that is in a relationship with me, which have all these inappropriate, double meaning, flirty conversations with so many females. That is just if nothing else, a distraction and plain and simple immature. When talking to these women, he has been late on me, in multiple occasions. 
And the lies, and the minimizing and the leaving out the words or that particular sentence, where it shows what is going on.

If you ask me, and I know you didn’t, here is an example of an ego that needs validating oneself through the eyes of others. An exceptionally stupid, volatile and noxious way to feel good about yourself.
Well, guess what, lying and not being factual is what has cost him this relationship. Not necessarily all these stupid immature incidents, but his inability on using common sense and being trustworthy when the "talk" needed to happen.

He hides behind his computer screen. That is what he does best. He cannot handle a normal debate, because I guess, not one ever in his life have told him he could be wrong.

Good day and thank you.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

Hardtohandle said:


> Isn't there a reason you got divorced ? Isn't there a reason she is called the Ex wife ?
> 
> You have no kids with her so what is the point ?
> 
> TW the more I hear the more I think the both of you feed the fire.


Like I said I am not the one initiating communication with any female. So to contend I am aiding to the problem, I just don't see it. For the past many months, years, I have asked one simple question: What do you want me to do? Regarding if someone contacts me. She wants me to tell her all about it. I'm referring to the mundane minutia of work discussions. I don't even want to hear those discussions myself much less have to replay all of them the minute I get home. "Hey honey, poor a glass of wine and lets sit here while I go through my phone and try and remember all the work discussions I had throughout the day." And if I forget something then I am classified as a liar, withholding information. Sometimes when I begin to tell her something about a meeting, or communication, she shuts me off and pretends to not want to hear it. Imagine how many more discussions and close situations most people encounter with the opposite sex in typical office jobs where you're there 8 hours a day 5 days a week for years and you're visually seeing these people too. My situation having everyone in remote locations is far less risky to a relationship I'd think; especially when you are not interested in them in the first place; especially when a major rule is to NEVER date a co-worker; and most especially when I am already in a relationship with a woman I truly care about. 

Taking this conversation a few steps back for a moment. The reason I sought out a woman older than I was my desire to enjoy a monogamous, exclusive long term relationship without all the hassles of dealing with a younger, unintelligent, immature flight-risk type of woman. I found that in my gf, former now I guess. I understand most all women get hit on from day one and it continues throughout their lives. Some receive marriage proposals, gifts, and solicitations for pure sex from men often. Imagine not being able to leave the house without someone hitting on you. I came to realize this long ago is the normal circumstance for many women. That’s why when STAR would tell me she had received an offer for regular sex from a total stranger but who was also a neighbor I didn't let it bother me. Neither the time another neighbor offered to whisk her away to his coastal home in Santa Barbara or the multiple times the next door neighbor offered to take her out for drinks. Keep in mind two of these neighbor men had already met me! How rude and presumptive don’t you think? i.e. Jacka$$e$ to be exact! 

Well my options there were I could get angry at my gf and or angry at them. But I chose neither. Its negative energy wouldn't enhance my relationship in any way and only serve to cause problems. One of the many reasons I got involved with a mature woman is for this very situation; I felt she would remain committed to me and not be enticed away on a fling or just leave me altogether. And she did not. I also showed her respect by not getting angry at those men or her, although the ones who knew me shouldn't have approached her out of respect for me and our relationship.

And that is the big difference here. She is continually upset at me for what other people are doing/saying. Why? Did I call my x-wife twice a year? No. Did I tell my co-worker “come and see me, think of you often?” No. And the same goes for all the rest of the upsets. Not my actions but the comments of others is upsetting her. It's all the same thing. People whom never were any relationship threat whatsoever in my past and certainly not now. Years ago, we all had opportunities when we were single to hook up and take things as far as they could go but did not. Why then would that begin to happen all of a sudden as I embark in a relationship with STAR? 

After she told me of some of these events and saw no reaction from me she became angry saying I lacked passion. No, I told her, I have great passion for you but I also trust you and I’m secure in myself and in our relationship. Instead of her being delighted at this news and allowing it to bring us closer together she then grew more skeptical by saying, why do you trust me? You don’t know what I may have done. I said yes of course but again I trust you because you are trustable, that’s why I’m with you.

So, here we have men routinely propositioning her for all sorts of relationship ending affairs and I trust her to do the right thing, and she did. But in my case I have a few long-term friends and one niece saying a few silly insignificant things on fb and text which are absolutely not flirtatious or inappropriate and both I and they have been ridiculed and demeaned continually. For the sake of what? I, my family, and my co-workers are ALL too close and inappropriate and immature apparently.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

star2916 said:


> ...When talking to these women, he has been late on me, in multiple occasions...


Details please... When? Was is it Valentines a few years back when your gifts didn't come in from amazon and I had to go to several stores before I found it and got there about 30 min late? When I brought you flowers, pored you wine and wrapped your gifts before dinner and you came out saying, "The reason those gifts aren't wrapped is because you've probably been talking with your friends all day..." Then on our dinner date you took a phone call lasting several minutes which could easily been delayed until we were though. Yes I remember being late but had nothing to do with chatting it up with women.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> Like I said I am not the one initiating communication with *any *female.


You have GOT to be kidding me. Even if I believed that - and I don't believe that in 4 years, out of hundreds and hundreds of conversations with other women through work and play, you NOT ONCE first called a woman in any particular conversation thread? Not even to set up a meeting? 

And do we all know how easy it is to set up situations, to insinuate further discussions, to leave things hanging...so that the other person 'initiates' further communication? Give me a break.

So you understand, I'm not giving star a break either. She's too controlling and too strict on what should or shouldn't be in a relationship. Those are the kinds of things that get one divorced or break up a relationship. But trail, you try WAY TOO HARD to escape any criticism and that is SO not healthy. And you'll just be carrying the exact same problem into any future relationships if you can't learn to be humble, eyes open to your own faults, and ready to learn. You did, after all, start this thread supposedly to learn - and yet you've spent all your energy defending all YOUR actions and blaming all the problems on STAR. Just sayin'.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Well, one thing is for sure, in his next relationship, he wouldn't make the same mistakes he made with me on FB. 

I am so glad about FB. I know most of you guys think it is Evil, but thanks to that media, I have been able to see whom I was dealing with.
WOW>


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

I am not playing his game here. If he wants to talk, he would have to come and see me in person, like a Real man.

Thank you guys for all your comments. Take care.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> I am so glad about FB. I know most of you guys think it is Evil, but thanks to that media, I have been able to see whom I was dealing with.


star, no offense, but classy ladies don't follow their boyfriends' FB pages to scour out the women.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

"Taking this conversation a few steps back for a moment. The reason I sought out a woman older than I was my desire to enjoy a monogamous, exclusive long term relationship without all the hassles of dealing with a younger, unintelligent, immature flight-risk type of woman. I found that in my gf, former now I guess. I understand most all women get hit on from day one and it continues throughout their lives. Some receive marriage proposals, gifts, and solicitations for pure sex from men often. Imagine not being able to leave the house without someone hitting on you. I came to realize this long ago is the normal circumstance for many women. Jacka$$e$ to be exact!
That is why of many reasons I got involved with a mature woman is for this very situation; I felt she would remain committed to me and not be enticed away on a fling or just leave me altogether. And she did not. "


Ahhhhh I now know why he was involved with me ..... and he calls me INSECURE .... that explains the methodical once a week sex at 10 am once a week, on Sunday mornings. ( if we were not in a conflict ) and that explains much more, in keeping all that 30's years old orbiters around .... what and IDIOT I have been ....


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Turnera, I will get these notifications in my FB feeds .....


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Just so you know, he will never answer a direct question from you. He will deviate and go to something different. 
OK , gone.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

And that folks...was Hamlet & Gretel...

They both discovered each others' worst weakness and enjoy using it against each other. She's inviting him over to her house to "talk"...pillow fight...Co-dependency in action. They will be lovey-dovey in 10, 9, 8, 7, 6.....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

star2916 said:


> Turnera, I will get these notifications in my FB feeds .....


So?

Are you handcuffed to FB? You're my age. You survived at least 2/3 of your life without FB, you didn't need it. You USED it to try to control your boyfriend. Lessons learned, no man is going to be impressed with a woman who checks on her boyfriend to that extent.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Calibre, your last comment is not appreciated. You are supposedly here to help folks to get out of the Fog that they might be in. Not to make comments like the last one. Believe it or not, some people are not as enlightened as you are, but nerveless, they feel pain and they feel lost.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

star2916 said:


> "Taking this conversation a few steps back for a moment. The reason I sought out a woman older than I was my desire to enjoy a monogamous, exclusive long term relationship without all the hassles of dealing with a younger, unintelligent, immature flight-risk type of woman. I found that in my gf, former now I guess. I understand most all women get hit on from day one and it continues throughout their lives. Some receive marriage proposals, gifts, and solicitations for pure sex from men often. Imagine not being able to leave the house without someone hitting on you. I came to realize this long ago is the normal circumstance for many women. Jacka$$e$ to be exact!
> That is why of many reasons I got involved with a mature woman is for this very situation; I felt she would remain committed to me and not be enticed away on a fling or just leave me altogether. And she did not. "
> 
> 
> Ahhhhh I now know why he was involved with me ..... and he calls me INSECURE .... that explains the methodical once a week sex at 10 am once a week, on Sunday mornings. ( if we were not in a conflict ) and that explains much more, in keeping all that 30's years old orbiters around .... what and IDIOT I have been ....


Dear, STAR, it appears you have totally misunderstood this comment of mine and misquoted it perhaps...? I'm unsure of your reaction here. Your comment is very confusing... I am calling the men who hit on you while they knew we were in a relationship a Jacka$$. I am also trying to show that I understand you get hit on by people whom could actually be a threat. Whereas I am being contacted by co-workers and my niece none of which are doing anything like you experience. And I am the one who gets verbally beat up.

Again, this is why I got on here. Because YOU told me to. Told me to read about flirting and how it makes women feel. Well of course it makes them feel awful... That's why I DON'T do it. etc etc.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Turnera, I DO NOT check onn his FB page. I got these on my feeds. Whatever. Think what you want . And by the way, I want to be aware of what my man does, because that is just smart. Remember? Trust but verify. I have a great deal of respect about my heart and whom I share my bodily fluids with.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Trailwalker, I did not misunderstood. It clearly answered many of my inner questions.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

star2916 said:


> I want to be aware of what my man does, because that is just smart. Remember? Trust but verify.


Um, you seem to have gotten a few things wrong, star.

Trust but verify is what you do _once your spouse has cheated on you._

It's not what people who are still dating or are happily married do. 

You're weakening your case.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

Does this remind anyone else of HB and AMU???? Just impossible to sort thru the facts as presented by both. ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I was going to say that...

In truth, though, it helps me become a better advisor. Helps me remember that no matter who posts, we don't really know the whole truth, or the other side, and that everyone who comes here naturally puts themselves in the best light, as we all do. Watching us all jump to the defense of the original poster (on each person's individual thread) and vilify that person's partner - and then watching us do it for the OTHER person (that poster's partner) is a good wakeup call to all of us not to jump to conclusions.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Why can't you just leave each other alone? It seems impossible to sort this out. Why make each other miserable? It not like their are not other men and women to form compatible relationships with. You make each other unhappy. I really don't understand why you want to stay together. 

Star the best thing you can do is to have no contact with Trail. That will break the spell that he seems to have for you. Men will try to convince you that you are not appealing as a woman. That is absolutely not true. I have proof - two aunts and a mother close to your age. They do not lack male interest. Some younger some same age and some older. 

They are cute, weight appropriate, active, devilish and fun. That's it. Move on, you will wonder why you did not do it sooner. He is crazy making for you, that will never change. The chemistry is bad. Leave this thread, close your Facebook account, change your environment and have no contact and you will be a new person.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I don't even know if the thread still exists, but it reminds me of the 2 lawyers (?) who would bicker all day and attack everyone who commented in a fashion they didn't like.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

star2916 said:


> Just so you know, he will never answer a direct question from you. He will deviate and go to something different.
> OK , gone.


Dear STAR, I believe someone has asked YOU a direct question on here as well that is yet to be answered...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> Dear STAR, I believe someone has asked YOU a direct question on here as well that is yet to be answered...


Why can't you leave each other alone?


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

turnera said:


> You have GOT to be kidding me. Even if I believed that - and I don't believe that in 4 years, out of hundreds and hundreds of conversations with other women through work and play, you NOT ONCE first called a woman in any particular conversation thread? Not even to set up a meeting?
> 
> And do we all know how easy it is to set up situations, to insinuate further discussions, to leave things hanging...so that the other person 'initiates' further communication? Give me a break.
> 
> So you understand, I'm not giving star a break either. She's too controlling and too strict on what should or shouldn't be in a relationship. Those are the kinds of things that get one divorced or break up a relationship. But trail, you try WAY TOO HARD to escape any criticism and that is SO not healthy. And you'll just be carrying the exact same problem into any future relationships if you can't learn to be humble, eyes open to your own faults, and ready to learn. You did, after all, start this thread supposedly to learn - and yet you've spent all your energy defending all YOUR actions and blaming all the problems on STAR. Just sayin'.


Yes TURNERA you are correct. There were MANY times I initiated communication with a female. A WORK female regarding WORK issues that is. How else can I possibly I get my job done? Several times we have computer work or reports etc with deadlines. During these times many of us will be working on this at home in the evening, early morning or weekend. There may be group or individual texting and calls going on. But again, how else can we get the work done without sometimes opposite sexes communicating...? We are spread out in different states our "offices" are at the computer, on the phone and in the car.

I was referring to not initiating communication with the particular females whom STAR has found so despotic and problematic to our relationship, as in my x-wife and two former co-workers, my long time friends whom have never once been a problem to any previous relationship that I gave up to appease STAR which obviously didn't work. I would also on a rare occasion sent my niece a fb or text message asking about my little great-niece or to plan logistics for the holidays (all my family lives in another state). Unfortunately this was also taken as "too close..."

That's one thing. The other thing is _" be humble, eyes open to your own faults, and ready to learn."_ This is what I have yet to hear from ANYONE... What shall I learn? What is it I should have done? I initially asked what can I do now? Then later on I asked a very straightforward question with 3 possible outcomes and again no answer. So to tell me I am not humble to receive info, what info? I haven't received any info thus far and it's been 7 pages already.

I'm listening...


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Why can't you leave each other alone?


Well, believe it or not, I'm here because I was asked many times to check it out. And I figured with all the thousands of posts and replys the community has then perhaps they would shed some light where I have been totally missing out. And also perhaps for STAR as well. If we both were on here then something other than YOU ARE NOT RIGHT FOR EACH OTHER would surface. I mean my god things started out so awesome for us and I thought I had found THE one. There are things about STAR that I seriously doubt any woman in the world could have she is really like a needle in a haystack - pot of gold sort of woman and I don't want to lose that over this trivial silliness. I also feel I have attributes (the one's she's told me) to give into the relationship that are special. When we first got together things were opposite of what you're hearing now. The odd thing is that everything she now despises of me she initially loved...

To have to give up a relationship with so much untapped potential for happiness, closeness, passion and just simple enjoyment of being together over these issues which are so unbelievable pathetic has proven impossible for me...


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

star2916 said:


> Trailwalker, I did not misunderstood. It clearly answered many of my inner questions.


Well, since you were obviously angered at my comment then you clearly didn't understand something judging from your response...


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## always_hopefull (Aug 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> What's her user name?


Sorry Tunera, I just got access to the net again. I did see you found Star's other comments.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_hopefull (Aug 11, 2011)

Trailwalker, I just want to point out a few things. 

1) you actually have to be in a relationship to "work" on it. As it stands your "gf" is actually your exgf. The advice your looking for is how to win her back. 

2) I was actually married to a man who "chatted" a lot with co-workers. He too claimed it was all work and friendly banter. However after finding inappropriate texts from various women, the boundaries were crossed. Our marriage counsellor told him that it did not matter if he was right or wrong, it was the fact that he refused to stop a behaviour he knew hurt me. That was the damaging part, that he needed to feed his ego at my expense. 

3) you stated she had issues with 2 ex coworkers, you can't claim a work only action ship if your still chatting with them after they left the company. 

4) you sound like you had a busy work schedule. If your working so much that most evenings and weekends your "replying" to co-workers, how much quality one on one time did you spend with your exgf? My ex spent hours talking to other women and barely had 30 min a week to talk to me. I found this extremely disrespectful as he paid more attention to others than I got. It didn't have to be sexual in nature. 

5) there were comments about a female friend of your saying she thinks about you often. How did you handle this? Do you laugh it off? Joke about it? Or enforce a boundary by stating it would be inappropriate for a man in a committed relationship to talk like that? One of my issues with my ex was similar. Even when it got to women talking about making his sexual fantasies come true, he just said I was overreacting. He thought it was okay to talk like that because he didn't encourage it. 

6) You really need to read your posts over. Read them as if Star was writing them. Would you believe it if she said that she never initiated "any" contact with another man?
7) you need to realize that Star is no longer interested in a relationship with you. It's evidenced by the fact she broke off the relationship.

8) It doesn't matter to Star how "innocent" your friendships were, they were inappropriate enough that she broke off the relationship. You can try forever and a day to convince her otherwise, but you will never succeed. Your wasting your time. 

9) I don't believe you clarified what made Star distrust you? Could you clarify that?

Ps sorry for any typos. This was done on my phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

always_hopefull said:


> Trailwalker, I just want to point out a few things.
> 
> 1) you actually have to be in a relationship to "work" on it. As it stands your "gf" is actually your exgf. The advice your looking for is how to win her back.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your extensive response. Here are mine using your list:

1 - true
2 - the two people in my case were gone long ago. No contact whatsoever with them either initiated by me or them since at least the last 1.5 - 2 years. I didn't "need" to talk with either of these individuals. Some of the "talking" was their fb comments on a pic of mine, etc. After I realized she didn't want communication I stopped initiating it. Again, I didn't need to talk with them but if they texted me I would briefly answer them.

3 - true, however, these were my long-term friends that never were in any way romantic interests. Like I said much of the "talking" were super brief texts and fb comments. That's why I tried to get off fb to at least alleviate that avenue of communication. Perhaps I should have totally dropped any female contact in the beginning but as I stated this had never come up with anyone before and I didn't realize it being such a devastating issue.

4 - your situation and ours are drastically different in this aspect. I fortunately don't ever have to work that much. The time spent on evenings and weekends were only about an hour or two many times in her home. We cannot be on the company computer during business hours and it has to wait until the evening. But my actual job ends much earlier than most people get off work. we had TREMENDOUS time together and could have had much more if we lived together or if she would have come to my home sometimes. the time spent on a brief text is how much? seconds, minutes...

5 - like I said this woman was extremely friendly and would ask everyone to "come out and visit" the "think of you often" who knows maybe she was referring to how she and two others and I spent time in training for a week? I do not know but it certainly has caused me irreparable problems.

6 - please see my previous post on this. the women she was incensed about I did stop initiating communication. any other female co-worker I sometimes did need to contact about a work issue. it can't be helped. it certainly can't be helped now with a female manager.

7 - it would appear so here in these messages. however in a previous email from her she said she did NOT want to break up but I wouldn't talk with her. talking with her on this subject involves her yelling and cussing at me and them and I am to sit there and take it without the ability to respond. that is NOT communication and it does not solve problems.

8 - the communication with these individuals was YEARS ago... so what is it now? since that time well, if my x-wife contacts to inquire if there are any openings in my field she would like to know. the rest are current co-workers. like I said so many times, what she sees on my personal phone is exponentially less than the communication that would occur in a typical office setting. we have to use phone and computer to communicate in my job. it is unfortunate that all communication which comes across into my phone is taken as inappropriate. there is no other way for us to talk. and I seriously doubt that the other 300 reps and 35 managers get this type of unusual treatment from their spouses/partners. if so the entire industry would be vacant.

9 - I could not possibly describe this better than her so probably best to get it from her.

thank you,


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

always_hopefull said:


> Trailwalker, I just want to point out a few things.
> 
> 1) you actually have to be in a relationship to "work" on it. As it stands your "gf" is actually your exgf. The advice your looking for is how to win her back.
> 
> ...


I really think the current concern (as in the last few years) is that ANY female will fall into the category of the two individuals with whom she despises and have been gone for a long time now, i.e. that communication will merge into more of a friendly nature and not remain purely business. keep in mind we are all salespeople and friendly by nature so apparently our discussions no matter what they are come across wrong or "too close" for her liking.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, I agree with you that star's insecurity - despite her protests to the extreme - caused a lot of rift in your relationship. Feel better? And I agree that you took SOME steps to mollify her - specific here-I'm-deleting-her steps. But that is just throwing a bucket of water on the wildfire. What she was trying to tell you is that you have a mannerism of being 'on' to women. We all know what that means, we women. It's kind of like the opposite of taking a book to dinner with you so nobody tries to talk to you. Now, in basic terms, that's not a good thing or a bad thing; it's just who you are. But when dating someone as insecure as star, you first should have questioned whether you had it in you to turn off that magnetism and then questioned whether you wanted to.

There's a poster here who said that his MO is to answer everything with a joke. Does he HAVE to be that way? No, he could have trained himself to react differently, if he really wanted to, if he really cared enough about his wife to start being serious about things. But he didn't; his MO (just like your 'flirting' or 'magnetism') was his comfort zone and he wasn't willing to give it up.

So, to be humble, open to learn, is going to require you to step outside yourself and start actually looking at your action as someone ELSE would see them. It may take asking other people to be brutally honest with you, to ask them if you've ever made them feel uncomfortable (and make sure they feel it's safe to tell you the truth - if they feel you'll get upset with them for being honest, they will just lie to you and say nah, you're great!). That's where the humble comes in. 

IIWY, I'd go around to ALL my peeps and say 'I've just lost a great relationship and I really want to make sure I don't screw another one up. She said I was too open with women, made it too easy for women to flirt with me. If that's true, I really don't want to keep doing that, cos I want to find a life partner and settle down and not chase another woman away. So what do YOU see in me? Am I doing that? Can you give me examples so I can see it?'

Notice how THIS trailwalker isn't defending himself? Isn't bashing his exgf? Isn't rushing ahead to deny there's anything there? He's open to listen, humble, making it safe for people to help him by being honest with him.

THAT is how you learn and grow. IMHO

And PS: You still never addressed this:


> 9) I don't believe you clarified what made Star distrust you? Could you clarify that?


That's a great first step in being humble and honest and ready to learn - being honest with US about this incident at the beginning that ruined her trust.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

star2916 said:


> Calibre, your last comment is not appreciated. You are supposedly here to help folks to get out of the Fog that they might be in. Not to make comments like the last one. Believe it or not, some people are not as enlightened as you are, but nerveless, they feel pain and they feel lost.


Solly...Couldn't help it...I am glad to know he didn't come over for the "talk". Let me just say, TW is a flirt, over-friendly and is narcissistic. He has poor boundaries. He knows it hurts you, so he does it. The fact that you accuse him of "incest" is a reflection of the poor boundaries in his family dynamics. He justifies, justifies morning, noon and night. 

You guys were on a stationary bicycle, you got off of it...He is continuing to ride it pretending that you are still on there. I hope you do not reconcile with him. And yes I do believe you have every right to check up on him to assess your relationship before it gets to the next level...There are not just a few red flags here...There are a million and one and you are reacting to them because you have lived long enough to learn that ignoring them is detrimental to your well-being. 

He came here expecting you to get bashed badly, but he didn't realize that some of us saw through him. Another narcissistic wound. P.S. No he does not love you, there isn't room in his life to love anyone else except that reflection in the mirror.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

The best part of this thread is a guy saying "it was all work, but we met for drinks and stuff." She's insecure and you feed it on purpose. You both are terrible for each other, but you like the conflict. These types of relationships ALWAYS end badly.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> The best part of this thread is a guy saying "it was all work, but we met for drinks and stuff." She's insecure and you feed it on purpose. You both are terrible for each other, but you like the conflict. These types of relationships ALWAYS end badly.


Do you need help reading? The meeting for drinks was a date with my girlfriend to meet my co-worker friend. But because a guy is saying this automatically everything is clouded under suspicion... I get it...


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Turnera, Excellent last post.

I did mention to him to do exactly that and one point.

Calibre, thank you so much.

Also, I want to clarify, I never have called these women bad names. My constant adjective was " inappropriateness " and total lack of boundaries. 
I have called him a$%&#le few times, but that is it.

I never accused him of lusting over his niece. I have told him, she didn't have boundaries, in what I thought it was overly double meaning comments and considering she is married. Never called her names. I know my limits ...hehe, will never tell that to a family member, regardless what I think.

I couldn't never express my concerns because I was shut out, name calling, broken doors, thrown things all over the house, etc etc.

I firmly believe there is a BIG difference in being INSECURE and feeling insecure.
I have felt "insecure" while in the relationship because all the things happening. and all the crazy making. 

He talks about " years back" The relationship lasted only four years and this has been happening all along. Two moths to him, is "years ago"

My neighbor will tell me, he saw him in many occasions, spend 10 15 minutes in my drive-way either texting or erasing in his phone before he came in. 
In the 4 years, I have only checked his phone less than ten times, even if I had his permission. To tell you the truth, I was afraid to.

The last incident with his boss, he only tells you part of the texts, he didn't tell you that she is telling him " I cannot deny anything to you " or " I have to arm rustle with you on that " Friendly banter, maybe, but doing that with someone that he has all day long in his car and they go for breakfast and lunches together, and they talk about personal things .... and with all the history I have to rely upon, you tell me.

What made me to loose my original trust? He had proven time and time again he was untrustworthy, lying, changing the meaning of things, not sharing, exaggerating , minimizing, deleting, putting me in a different group in FB so I couldn't see whatever was going on. etc etc. 

Like I have say, there's so much more, but hey ... who wants to know.

Thank you All.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

turnera said:


> Ok, I agree with you that star's insecurity - despite her protests to the extreme - caused a lot of rift in your relationship. Feel better? And I agree that you took SOME steps to mollify her - specific here-I'm-deleting-her steps. But that is just throwing a bucket of water on the wildfire. What she was trying to tell you is that you have a mannerism of being 'on' to women. We all know what that means, we women. It's kind of like the opposite of taking a book to dinner with you so nobody tries to talk to you. Now, in basic terms, that's not a good thing or a bad thing; it's just who you are. But when dating someone as insecure as star, you first should have questioned whether you had it in you to turn off that magnetism and then questioned whether you wanted to.
> 
> There's a poster here who said that his MO is to answer everything with a joke. Does he HAVE to be that way? No, he could have trained himself to react differently, if he really wanted to, if he really cared enough about his wife to start being serious about things. But he didn't; his MO (just like your 'flirting' or 'magnetism') was his comfort zone and he wasn't willing to give it up.
> 
> ...


Opposite of CALIBRE's continued incorrect hypothesis and completely useless guidance for their own personal recreation, you have actually provided me with something real and tangible to help and prevent situations like this from happening in the future and for that I THANK YOU...! This is more than all three counselors combined.

Lets say I have completed the steps you've outlined here and followed through with behaving differently or whatever the outcome is. What then shall I do or how could I have safely responded to the usual atomically explosive response from STAR, prior to her tossing my belongings and me out of the house saying "Oh here's another one!", when she notices a text or fb comment from a completely non romantically interested female? Does every communication from the opposite sex warrant a therapy session? 

In answer to your question 9, STAR's answer to me over the years is a combination of 1- too close relationships can result in the possibility of infidelity and or simply "look bad" in public. _the public of facebook she means._ 2 - there were just "too many" women at the onset of our getting together. 

I have attempted to understand and eliminate problem 2 by what I have mentioned earlier, deleting females from fb whom I didn't know. Also stop pro-actively contacting my work friends for non-essential communication and no more history of my past. Regarding situation 1 I don't know how to have handled that any better this is where I am at a total loss. I tried, unsuccessfully to assist her in knowing the real relationship or friendship between me and all parties involved the history behind everything, getting her to know these people as well. But nothing helped. I realize my statements here, likely because I am a male and have had the label of flirt etc thrown at me and there honestly is now no hope for me, will only look to some as me trying to explain my way out of "doing the right thing" or whatever but I honestly had no idea how else to handle that one. I suspect I could have made a personal call to every female the x-wife, current co-workers and former co-workers the manager, the niece and told them to limit their contact with me to only business content and make it brief, no personal chatter such as how was your vacation, how is STAR etc. like the rest of the world seems to do.

Finally, I'm still awaiting a response from the enlightened community on my previous question scenario as I received a text from the x-wife and how best I should have handled that one... so that I don't appear to be evading, explaining, escaping, avoiding, etc.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

Star...You made the right decision...Keep it that way...The nightmare is over. There isn't ever room for negotiation in this scenario.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

star2916 said:


> Turnera, Excellent last post.
> 
> Also, I want to clarify, I never have called these women bad names. My constant adjective was " inappropriateness " and total lack of boundaries.
> I have called him a$%&#le few times, but that is it.
> ...


Oh so the times she was called a "little F**KING WH**E BI**H SL*T" never happened... okay I must have dreamed that one... apparently many times.

The neighbor seeing me delete messages....? Really? I have TINTED windows!!! How can he possibly know what I'm doing? Perhaps I'm writing you a love note? Or making a calendar entry or making a todo list, or setting up a lunch with a caterer, or the ten thousand other things you can do with a smart phone... Or more likely I am entering sales information into my company iPad to complete my day of business because I know you despise me doing that in you home.

dear god...


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

It's her mouth, she has a right to use it...This is America...Freedom of speech. Next! It's good that you are now projecting your anger on the forum, instead of on her. Let it go, let her go. Get some help for yourself and good luck.

If the only sacrifice you made was to stay faithful in the midst of the droves and herds of beauties chasing after you, then it was time the fiasco was over. You need to succumb to the chickens chasing your rooster self. Spare us and Star and just do it instead of not doing it and resenting everybody else.

P.S. I get the real street deal now too, you think that because she is at least 10 years older, she should kiss the ground you walk on because every woman alive wants a piece of your azz...So you are doing her a favor by being faithful...Classic.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

" Oh so the times she was called a "little F**KING WH**E BI**H SL*T" never happened... okay I must have dreamed that one... apparently many times. " 

CORRECT, IT never HAPPENED ....


Also, the episode with your ex, that I checked your phone wile you were in the shower, it is incorrect.

I went upstairs and you were texting, I asked, who are you talking to , you said, it was your nephew's birthday. Wishing him well. 
I asked to see your phone, and there it was, you were e mailing your E wife in a Sunday afternoon. You were not in the shower, you were upstairs in the 2nd office. 

Say the e truth. No for me, for yourself.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

Calibre1212 said:


> It's her mouth, she has a right to use it...This is America...Freedom of speech. Next! It's good that you are now projecting your anger on the forum, instead of on her. Let it go, let her go. Get some help for yourself and good luck.
> 
> If the only sacrifice you made was to stay faithful in the midst of the droves and herds of beauties chasing after you, then it was time the fiasco was over. You need to succumb to the chickens chasing your rooster self. Spare us and Star and just do it instead of not doing it and resenting everybody else.


You know, outside of one or two decent pieces of guidance on here the other responses are not serving to change popular mindset of female hysteria. It is continuing to, unfortunately, perpetuate the typical image of being insecure, hot-tempered, unforgiving, over-reacting and emotional. It doesn't serve you well at all. There are some, like I said, who have taken the time to actually provide help; which is what I asked for and for that I sincerely thank you...


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

star2916 said:


> " Oh so the times she was called a "little F**KING WH**E BI**H SL*T" never happened... okay I must have dreamed that one... apparently many times. "
> 
> CORRECT, IT never HAPPENED ....
> 
> ...


Unbelievable, and here we are in the alternate reality of STAR...


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

star2916 said:


> " Oh so the times she was called a "little F**KING WH**E BI**H SL*T" never happened... okay I must have dreamed that one... apparently many times. "
> 
> CORRECT, IT never HAPPENED ....
> 
> ...


8 pages and counting... Still no answer. STAR perhaps you'll shed light on how I should've handled that situation to not appear so devious and to meet your ever changing rules of engagement...?


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

"P.S. I get the real street deal now too, you think that because she is at least 10 years older, she should kiss the ground you walk on because every woman alive wants a piece of your azz...So you are doing her a favor by being faithful...Classic."

Guess you didn't see that part yet as I was editing...

Diagnose me baby...Let it all out...I get it all the time from the psychotic. Redirect the anger...That's how real, good therapy works...If you were in my office, I would be triggering you until you run out of excuses and face your demons or run out of the office.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

OH really, don't you remember what I did say? 
Why do you have to e mail her back in a Sunday, that is our day. You say, Why do I have to wait to send her an e mail on Monday? 

Boundaries, that is why.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> Let's say I have completed the steps you've outlined here and followed through with behaving differently or whatever the outcome is. What then shall I do or how could I have safely responded to the usual atomically explosive response from STAR, prior to her tossing my belongings and me out of the house saying "Oh here's another one!", when she notices a text or fb comment from a completely non romantically interested female? Does every communication from the opposite sex warrant a therapy session?


Well, that depends. How did you change your 'openness' to flirting, and for how long a time have you stopped being so approachable to women? A month? A year? Two years? At one month, she has no reason to trust that you have changed. At one year, she may believe you've really changed but still hurts over all the incidents and is just waiting for the next one. At two years of consistent alpha behavior without flirting and telling other women you're involved and please don't contact you except in appropriate work fashion (and your work exchanges have been anything BUT appropriate), she could probably sit back and trust you again and SHE then should have stopped any insecure behavior. Up to that point, should she come to you and say 'what about THIS text', you should politely take the phone away from her, say "We've been over this, I only have eyes for you, and if you won't take my word for it, then I suggest we go our separate ways because I won't stay in a relationship in which I'm constantly being accused of things I'm not doing."

And if she actually DID throw your things out of the house, you should instantly pick them up, put them in your car, and drive away.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

star2916 said:


> I never accused him of lusting over his niece. I have told him, she didn't have boundaries, in *what I thought* it was overly double meaning comments and considering she is married.


According to what you both described, she said 'you should be a hand model!' - is that right? First, there is NOTHING inappropriate in that. The only person reading into it is you. And second, you say what YOU thought was overly double-meaning comments; again, this is YOUR insecure take on an innocuous comment. 



star2916 said:


> I firmly believe there is a BIG difference in being INSECURE and feeling insecure.
> I have felt "insecure" while in the relationship because all the things happening. and all the crazy making.


We'll have to agree to disagree. You show many signs of insecurity and your 'reasons' you give for why you are not insecure (I date younger men so I must not be insecure) are actually quite the opposite. IMO, you date younger men because you ARE insecure and you feel that if people see younger men lusting for you, you will appear better than you yourself believe. Not buyin' it.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

...And, how DARE her dump you because you resisted so magically and methodically, the "advances" from the bevy of beauties that surround you 24 hours a day...The only compensation for that type of "ingratitude" of hers is to take you back...Lordy...

Right Said Fred - I`m Too Sexy (The Original) - YouTube


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

star2916 said:


> " Oh so the times she was called a "little F**KING WH**E BI**H SL*T" never happened... okay I must have dreamed that one... apparently many times. "
> 
> CORRECT, IT never HAPPENED ....


I give up, then. ONE of you is clearly lying, but we have no way of knowing so any advice we give is going to be wrong since the two of you are so War of the Roses that you won't come down off your perches. 

Good luck.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

turnera said:


> I give up, then. ONE of you is clearly lying, but we have no way of knowing so any advice we give is going to be wrong since the two of you are so War of the Roses that you won't come down off your perches.
> 
> Good luck.


According to my wife, she is perfect and I am an utter wretch.

She was telling a friend of ours how horrible I was and her friend looked at me, in a slightly predatory way and said: "But.. you could do worse than Matt... _a lot worse_."


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## stunned (May 6, 2013)

Ummm ya, so like, it seems that from what STAR has said, you two are no longer a couple. Methinks it should stay that way. For both of your sakes. 
Seriously, this is becoming a back and forth he said, she said, and no one is getting anywhere. Apparently you two are not together. It does not appear that STAR has any notion to change that. Assuming that is the case, then there's nothing really to talk about. 
I don't think either of you are the horrible people you make each other out to be. You just aren't compatible. I think it's time to move on. You will undoubtedly be happier with other partners.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

trailwalker said:


> Do you need help reading?


My reading is fine, your sarcasm meter is broken.



trailwalker said:


> The most recent battle was with a text from my female manager after we spent a day of co-travel. The most recent battle was with a text from my female manager after *we spent a day of co-travel. managers ride with reps about once a month and also go to lunch.*
> ---snip minimizing explanation----
> Here is her statement: "Landed back in Cali, Thanks for everything, I appreciate everything you do for the team, your territory and mostly your undying love for sushi. mmmmm!" I responded by saying, "Thank you and *appreciate your support and encouragement* for career and *personal endeavors,* glad we found *a new sushi place.*"


 I highlighted what would bother me, if an admitted liar gave me this text. Yes, I translated the above quote into this:


me said:


> The best part of this thread is a guy saying "it was all work, but we met for drinks and stuff."


Oh and let me add one more opinion, hid=liar when it comes to relations outside of your main relationship in circumstances like this one.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

turnera said:


> Well, that depends. How did you change your 'openness' to flirting, and for how long a time have you stopped being so approachable to women? A month? A year? Two years? At one month, she has no reason to trust that you have changed. At one year, she may believe you've really changed but still hurts over all the incidents and is just waiting for the next one. At two years of consistent alpha behavior without flirting and telling other women you're involved and please don't contact you except in appropriate work fashion (and your work exchanges have been anything BUT appropriate),


Well I seriously must have gone about this entirely the wrong way...

The time between my non-initiating contact for non-business communication has been about 1.5 - 2 years. And I am apparently, CALIBRE here's another bone for you to chew on, clueless as to any and all female attachment on me. I certainly didn't realize my niece had designs on me..._he said with great sarcasm_. So, here we have my dilemma. I am unaware of doing something up in the atmosphere, in the "ether" that I cannot detect yet I am still held complicit and solely responsible to change... When does MOTIVE ever factor into the situation? It never was my motive or desire to maintain ANY emotional level attachment toward another female other than STAR. I thought I had made that clear from the start. Since this was the reality then why let infrequent and modest comments from unromantic parties spoil trust, spoil the relationship? 

If roles were reversed, I would have been secure enough in myself and what I give to our relationship not to let ANY comment from anyone bother me. I had thought this was the case with the highly attractive, successful, funny, intelligent STAR who literally has far more to offer than most women many years younger. I had thought after her continual upsets (as well as seeing the obvious reaction from me to the alleged "flirts" that I was not drawn into their net) she might try and look at this from reality - TRAILWALKER is with ME for a reason and NOT them. Not in any way. He is continually making plans for me for us to be together; he is 24/7 available to me. Therefore I will not be bothered by the flies because I know his motives and true intentions are for me alone. 

Why couldn't that have happened...?




turnera said:


> she could probably sit back and trust you again and SHE then should have stopped any insecure behavior. Up to that point, should she come to you and say 'what about THIS text', you should politely take the phone away from her, say "We've been over this, I only have eyes for you, and if you won't take my word for it, then I suggest we go our separate ways because I won't stay in a relationship in which I'm constantly being accused of things I'm not doing."
> 
> And if she actually DID throw your things out of the house, you should instantly pick them up, put them in your car, and drive away.


True, that would have been the healthiest response. But I just couldn't believe the response to something so insignificant.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> My reading is fine, your sarcasm meter is broken.
> 
> I highlighted what would bother me, if an admitted liar gave me this text. Yes, I translated the above quote into this:
> 
> ...


See, I have no idea why that would bother anybody who is secure. What if a male manager was having that discourse with me? Is it still flirting? Goodness, it was a working business lunch.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes, the language is inappropriate. I don't know where you work, but my H worked for one of the largest manufacturers in the world. Every two or three years, he'd have to attend sexual harassment training and he learned that nowadays people are expressly forbidden to use the kinds of words you and she used, to touch each other in any way, or to meet for drinks unless there are at least 3 or 4 other people in attendance. Hell, at my church, a male volunteer can't even drive a female child home alone as the last passenger in the church bus; he has to drop her off at the last child's house so as not to be alone in the bus with her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> See, I have no idea why that would bother anybody who is secure. What if a male manager was having that discourse with me? Is it still flirting? Goodness, it was a working business lunch.


Would a male manager gush over your undying love for sushi? No. That is flirting. And you not stopping it is flirting.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

turnera said:


> Would a male manager gush over your undying love for sushi? No. That is flirting. And you not stopping it is flirting.


See this is baffling to me but I will take your word to it because contrary to many on her I actually am here to LEARN...

So since I cannot prevent her text from coming in, what should I have done? This is a perfect example of how I continuously and unwittingly get into trouble. Should I say nothing? Of course if there is not a response text from me then STAR would think I had deleted something. Or should I respond simply "thank you" or should I take my phone over to star and say, dear what would you like me to do with this text? And also hope star would not redirect her wrath upon me. I really would appreciate help on this.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

trailwalker said:


> See, I have no idea why that would bother anybody who is secure.


Says the guy who uses "hid" instead of "lied," when he is describing the female contact he hid from his girlfriend. I think she is hyper insecure, but I do not know if it is her or you that created the problem. Like I said, you both are terrible for each other time to move on.



> What if a male manager was having that discourse with me? Is it still flirting? Goodness, it was a working business lunch.


Logical fallacy.


trailwalker said:


> See this is baffling to me but I will take your word to it because contrary to many on her I actually am here to LEARN


Are you this passive aggressive with her?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Dude, you just weren't compatible. Doesn't make either of you evil or anything. Just let it go. It's over. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

"I give up, then. ONE of you is clearly lying, but we have no way of knowing so any advice we give is going to be wrong since the two of you are so War of the Roses that you won't come down off your perches. "


Trailwalwer, which is true, The "I trowed your belonging out of my house" or that I came in the morning to your place and brought your things nicely folded in different bags? 

Also, again, I did never say your niece was a SFB , I said a one point, you were the common denominator in the kind of problems we were having, it was very hard for me to believe that every female that came in contact with you were all S****t* F*****g B*****S.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

I have seeing this kind of behavior between females and him constantly throughout the relationship.

This Female Manager ( in her 30's) is confiding on him the probability that his male coworker, buddy, might be fired very soon. To me, it is a sign of too much closeness between them, a lack of ethics in her part and shows immaturity and poor judgement. And these two, are riding all day long together alone, once or twice a month and obviously liking each other quite bit, sharing among professional, personal information and their love for sushi.

They are going to the wine country next moth, because they won the trip, were there are all females , and three guys total. He volunteers to do the Manager's job on planning the whole trip, hotels, restaurant, the Brewery and a private tour of the wine country. He told me, all the members of the team were in charge to pick up a thing to do, while I saw in another text to another female friend that "HE got to plan the whole trip" 

In one of these conferences, Trailwalker volunteers to get in the NUDE. into a bathtub full of bubbles, in front of his team. YES, he says he closed the bathroom door the get unclothed, . ....
This is the kind of Company he works for. A little too much on the Party side? Very Professional? 

So yes, I was a little bit Insecure, when my former boyfriend kept in close touch with these women during the year, because in reality, they only have 2 products to sell, and there's nothing new about for them to learn. Plus they get 4 meetings a Year talking about the same thing, and then, Party time. 

I have worked for Big Companies and these kind of "activities" was never presented at all.

In another occasion, there was another get together because it was one of the Manager's Birthday and they picked the city where we live. The " girls" have rented a Penthouse suite and they stayed up until who knows when, drinking, music etc. So yes, very cozy relationship they have . It makes me think of my college days.

This Company is going to have a problem one day.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

" We'll have to agree to disagree. You show many signs of insecurity and your 'reasons' you give for why you are not insecure (I date younger men so I must not be insecure) are actually quite the opposite. IMO, you date younger men because you ARE insecure and you feel that if people see younger men lusting for you, you will appear better than you yourself believe. Not buyin' it."

Turnera, That is one of the possible reasons that shows I am not INSECURE. 

I feel secure enough on myself, physically and mentally not to let a difference in age to be a problem.

Are you telling me, that if I see these kind of repeating incidents in my relationship, regardless the age of my partner I shall just go with it? In fear that I get labeled with the OH oh oh " INSECURE " label?. That is another sign I am not insecure. 
I knew what I was going to be called when I verbalized my concerns. 

My core values do not approve of that kind of "single behavior" if you are involved with me in a relationship, period. 

And as we have been able to see, Trailwalker has very little knowledge when it comes to recognizing the difference in being polite, overly friendly and flirting. Or maybe he does, the guy is very intelligent as you can see, but he just play oblivious, so he can continue doing what it feels good to him.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

star2916 said:


> ... putting me in a different group in FB so I couldn't see whatever was going on. etc etc.


This needs to be cleared up because yet again I am accused of something that isn't true. You have confused reality with the thoughts and ideas in your mind. I never placed you in a separate basket in Facebook. I had always tried to keep things organized such as creating separate folders for photos on there. And Then I discovered you can create a group for emailing purposes so I created one for family, school, and work. But NONE separating you from the world so I wouldn't see something. Again you are upset and totally wrong. I did mention to you during yet another discussion after you complained that I had you last on my list: there was my family my co-workers and then way down at the bottom was you. I said quite the opposite is true actually. In my mind you are in a totally different “basket” than anybody else. There are my feelings for my family, there is my mutual respect and appreciation for my co-workers and then totally off in another realm are my feelings for you.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

star2916 said:


> I have seeing this kind of behavior between females and him constantly throughout the relationship.
> 
> This Female Manager ( in her 30's) is confiding on him the probability that his male coworker, buddy, might be fired very soon. To me, it is a sign of too much closeness between them, a lack of ethics in her part and shows immaturity and poor judgement. And this two, are riding all day long together alone, once or twice a month and obviously liking each other quite bit.


Twice untrue here. First he is not going to be fired. We were simply joking at his selling style and personality. This should have been obvious to you. Second we are not "liking each other." goodness... Why didn't you complain when I spent all day in the car with the male managers? You could have said I was gay or something... it's just as ridiculous as your comments here.



star2916 said:


> In one of these conferences, Trailwalker volunteers to get in the NUDE. into a bathtub full of bubbles, in front of his team.
> This is the kind of Company he works for. A little too much on the Party side?


WOW! And here is a prime example of not providing ANY of the facts to make me look like a ridiculous fool. I have explained this to you many times. Also we went through this with the counselor together. ALSO I just sent you a very long detailed email LAST WEEK on this very subject. Did you forget this too???

I was NOT in the nude in front of ANYONE. There was a quick, funny video to be made and shown to the entire sales force. The scene was so tasteful it could have been shown to any church going audience with children of any age present. The time spent getting ready and back into my clothes was, guess what, TOTALLY ALONE. my god how you completely misrepresent things... this is just sickening


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> See this is baffling to me but I will take your word to it because contrary to many on her I actually am here to LEARN...
> 
> So since I cannot prevent her text from coming in, what should I have done? This is a perfect example of how I continuously and unwittingly get into trouble. Should I say nothing? Of course if there is not a response text from me then STAR would think I had deleted something. Or should I respond simply "thank you" or should I take my phone over to star and say, dear what would you like me to do with this text? And also hope star would not redirect her wrath upon me. I really would appreciate help on this.


"Boss, I'm really glad we have this connection over sushi and late night drinks, but I'm in a relationship and our friendship is making my girlfriend uncomfortable. Would you mind if we keep all communications 100% formal? You and I both know we're ok with each other, but I love my girlfriend and I don't want her to hurt when it's not necessary. ok?"


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

turnera said:


> "Boss, I'm really glad we have this connection over sushi and late night drinks, but I'm in a relationship and our friendship is making my girlfriend uncomfortable. Would you mind if we keep all communications 100% formal? You and I both know we're ok with each other, but I love my girlfriend and I don't want her to hurt when it's not necessary. ok?"


Fantastic! Yes, I wish I'd have done that... FYI - I don't have late night drinks alone with my manager or any female. If we are in a work convention I am always in a group men and women present. Never alone with any female ever.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

As I said, star, agree to disagree. I see an insecure woman.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> Fantastic! Yes, I wish I'd have done that... FYI - I don't have late night drinks alone with my manager or any female. If we are in a work convention I am always in a group men and women present. Never alone with any female ever.


And...here he goes again, wasting 1000% of his time defending himself so that he can't be seen in a bad light.

*sigh*


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> I was NOT in the nude in front of ANYONE. There was a quick, funny video to be made and shown to the entire sales force. The scene was so tasteful it could have been shown to any church going audience with children of any age present. The time spent getting ready and back into my clothes was, guess what, TOTALLY ALONE. my god how you completely misrepresent things... this is just sickening


tw, so you know, in the REAL business world, this would have been UNBELIEVABLY, COMPLETELY verbotin, wrong, horrifying, and in POOR TASTE. If not also open to litigation. NO matter HOW you try to spin it. And I get the sense that you spin a LOT of things to make them seem 'ok.' If you're having to spin THAT many things, ask yourself why.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

turnera said:


> And...here he goes again, wasting 1000% of his time defending himself so that he can't be seen in a bad light.
> 
> *sigh*


Narcissism 3000101. I see it often...Jeez. Don't wear yourself out Turnera...It's a PD, psychoanalysis is the only attempt at a cure.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

star2916 said:


> Trailwalwer, which is true, The "I trowed your belonging out of my house" or that I came in the morning to your place and brought your things nicely folded in different bags?


It would be so lovely if that were the whole story and yes I noticed the clothes were folded very nicely thank you. Prior to this however the night before after the unnecessary explosion on me I attempted to go upstairs in the hopes you’d calm down but you were relentless and followed me up there more yelling and cussing so I grabbed a few essentials and got out. The next morning you did come with the remainder of items and proceeded to grab my phone and apparently send a few texts from my manager over to your phone I guess for evidence or maybe those were the last you would ever see and wanted a little souvenir? Who knows, but after you were done with my phone and more yelling and cussing at me you thankfully left.



star2916 said:


> Also, again, I did never say your niece was a SFB , I said a one point, you were the common denominator in the kind of problems we were having, it was very hard for me to believe that every female that came in contact with you were all S****t* F*****g B*****S.



The second part of this is without question the most maddening things I've ever encountered. The most distressing, depressing and unsolvable I may ever encounter in my life to come. No, not the fact that you really did say this awful thing about my niece; not even the awful things you say about me (aka. “ You’re too skinny, I like a man with a little meat on his bones in case you don’t know…”) Not the disparaging things about all the people in my world. No. It’s the fact you continue to have a pattern of FORGETTING critical conversations and usually statements that you yourself have made. 

Like Christmas Eve 2011. After exchanging some of the gifts there was a THREE HOUR senseless fight. I had gotten you some workout clothes, boots, a jacket and an iMac. After the clothes were opened you oddly stated, “Hmmm, well where are the tags? It looks like you have tried to pawn off these things on me that you had bought for your ex-wife!” Shocked and dismayed the fight lasted for 3 long hours. The next morning I brought the Zappos box over to you and showed you the name brand tags and price tags I cut off including the receipt dated only a month earlier. I’d think that even the most stubborn of people would at that time be humble enough to offer an apology, I received NONE. Just cold indifference. Quite a while later something about this was brought up and I was reminding you of that senseless fight over your ridiculous statement; you however did NOT REMEMBER the 3 hour fight….. on Christmas Eve of all things.

No, actually you DID call her this long after you insinuated she was “flirting with me and I was doing nothing to stop it.” Just so you’ll know this was the most disgusting of things in our 4 year saga to me, the level at which you had stooped… That is the reason I remember the vivid horrible details. Arguing throughout the house on some typical nonsense and it got into my niece. I was standing at your printer hearing you in the den and I was so shocked at this level of hatred I walked in there and had to ask you point blank, “STAR, just to confirm you are calling my niece a little F**K**G WH**E B**CH?” And again the shocking response from you was YES!

I know it must sound confusing and aggravating to hear me say something you don’t remember but this is a PATTERN of yours throughout our saga.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

Star just saved herself a hellhole of pain and suffering for the rest of her life. Kudos Star! You sound healthy to me.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

turnera said:


> tw, so you know, in the REAL business world, this would have been UNBELIEVABLY, COMPLETELY verbotin, wrong, horrifying, and in POOR TASTE. If not also open to litigation. NO matter HOW you try to spin it. And I get the sense that you spin a LOT of things to make them seem 'ok.' If you're having to spin THAT many things, ask yourself why.


why is this taken so badly??? The video was shown to high level vice presidents and all sales force I'm talking about nearly 350 people. it was done in VERY decent taste and it was funny. the part star is apparently having difficulty with is how did I get my clothes off and into the tub without anyone seeing me? Well the bathroom has a door and I closed it... the tub was filled with bubbles and the only thing of me you could see was my head, neck and hands. man, this is out of control...
thank you STAR... thank you SO MUCH...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> It would be so lovely if that were the whole story and yes I noticed the clothes were folded very nicely thank you.


But...but...but you said she THREW YOUR CLOTHES OUTSIDE THE HOUSE. 

Which is it?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You really CAN'T stand having anyone have a bad image of you, can you?

That's not healthy. Just so you know. You said you are humble, want to learn. Well, here you are. Find a good psychologist, print out these threads, tell her you've been unofficially diagnosed as narcissicist, and you want to know what your psychologist thinks. Go to at least 3 visits. 

Then come back and let us know what she says.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

turnera said:


> But...but...but you said she THREW YOUR CLOTHES OUTSIDE THE HOUSE.
> 
> Which is it?


Packing up my things and yelling "get out" is to me being thrown out...


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

The point TRAILWALKER , in 350 people, YOU were the ONE to Volunteer. 

The Clothes thing in that particular Christmas, I am a size Xsmall and these clothes were MEdium and not tags on it, so yes, it pissed me off and wandered were they came from. You have already gave me some workout gloves that were obviously worn at the beginning of the relationship, no tags, and did not fit.

I never said these words about your niece,and by the way, the "you can be a model " is not the only thing made me wonder, there were many other posts in similar fashion, which you deleted, when her husband became your friend.

By the way I do not curse. I only know one word and it is "f*ck" which I use for many different scenarios, I was raised properly. And I do not YELL .... I always bring the questions to you and you are the one that screams and brake doors and slam doors and trow things and leave. I imagine because you have run out of excuses to BS me? And you are the one that hides behind a computer or texts and do not sit down with me and try to find a solution because you are what ? scared ? that I will tell you something that hurts your SUPER delicate sensitivity???? 

The FB group thing, you were the one that told me so. You told me, I was placed in a different " basket" So I wouldn't see posts that might upset me. I didn't came out with that one. And the comment that I was angry because I was in the bottom of the list ? give me a brake .... you are delusional ... like who cares ....

I did not take your phone from you that morning, or was trying to send a message to your Manager, ???? or make copies ????? ( crazy making) I told you to find the text that has made me upset, because you totally denied what was said. 

And finally, I am not upset, I just cannot believe the kind of person you are in reality. WOW. 

You are here supposedly trying to find some counsel, but you are not being sincere. You go and tailor the truth in ways that I couldn't have never imagine. And THAT my dear, is why we are not together. I do not lie. And I expect the same from the people I am close with. It is just my nature, and no , I do not need the true to be presented to me in colored paper, give it to me raw, please. 

I have been reading TAM for about 3 years now, and people get over more serious difficulties that ours.

With you is just not possible because you have a distorted notion of what the real world is about. You are still in Junior High.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

OK guys, thank you for your help, good and no as flattering sometimes, but nerveless appreciated.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

trailwalker said:


> Packing up my things and yelling "get out" is to me being thrown out...


Your words...


> What then shall I do or how could I have safely responded to the usual atomically explosive response from STAR, prior to *her tossing my belongings and me out of the house *saying "Oh here's another one!",


So...neatly folded bag is equivalent to TOSSING MY BELONGINGS OUT?

I think I see the slippery slope we are on here.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

star2916 said:


> The point TRAILWALKER , in 350 people, YOU were the ONE to Volunteer.
> 
> The Clothes thing in that particular Christmas, I am a size Xsmall and these clothes were MEdium and not tags on it, so yes, it pissed me off and wandered were they came from.


Some things were a medium and most were a small, dear. I got the sizing according to what you told me you were for the different items. This should NOT have caused such a horrific explosion.



star2916 said:


> The FB group thing, you were the one that told me so. You told me, I was placed in a different " basket" So I wouldn't see posts that might upset me.


Nope, not true. Misunderstand a simple comment probably because you are already so aggravated and stopped listening.



star2916 said:


> I did not take your phone from you, that morning, I saw you or was trying to send a message to your Manager, ???? ( crazy making) I told you to find the text that has made me upset, because you totally denied what was said.


I did NOT say you were trying to send a message to my manager. Misunderstanding AGAIN. Please re read my post slowly. There are a string of text messages copied from them that were sent over to YOUR phone. 



star2916 said:


> I have been reading TAM for about 3 years now, and people get over more serious difficulties that ours.


Enjoy your new life here in Hotel California. Lots of twin souls to comfort you. Apparently once you join you never leave...


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

star2916 said:


> The point TRAILWALKER , in 350 people, YOU were the ONE to Volunteer.


They did NOT go to all 350 people and found only me as a volunteer... where are you getting this craziness from? They simply walked into our room and said you are the first place we came to and we want to do a video. The rest of the details of this were emailed to you, are very clear, and cannot be misrepresented in any way.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

turnera said:


> You really CAN'T stand having anyone have a bad image of you, can you?
> 
> That's not healthy. Just so you know. You said you are humble, want to learn. Well, here you are. Find a good psychologist, print out these threads, tell her you've been unofficially diagnosed as narcissicist, and you want to know what your psychologist thinks. Go to at least 3 visits.
> 
> Then come back and let us know what she says.


Do you know how many times STAR has actually told me she was sorry after one of her senseless tirades? Several. “I’m sorry, I don’t know why I get like that. I promise I won’t bring any of this up again and if I do you have my permission to just smack me upside the head…” I wouldn't ever do that. But I myself have been slapped.

The first problem we encountered was when I commented on a fb photo a female co-worker posted of herself waterskiing for the first time. I said, “Wow, look at that grace and form under pressure.” This of course was meant as a joke because there is no grace and form when you waterski the first time. STAR sees this and explodes focusing on the word “form” She thought I was excited by her feminine form. My God. How did this obvious, clear joking comment get blown so out of proportion? That caused a break up after a phone conversation fight. Later we got back together to talk because obviously there was a misunderstanding. I explained who that person was and what I meant. However, STAR would not accept any of this. She still contented I was flirting. I told her we must deal with this right now because it could fester and come back to haunt us. Also, what if there is another similar comment, how do we handle it? We have to make some kind of rules here. Can we agree to disagree and at least start from there? NO! was the answer. And 4 years later similar comments, innocent statements, pop-cultural references that weren't understood, etc and now we have this disastrous relationship. It should have, could have been so easily prevented with the proper care from both of us with safeguards put in place in the beginning. But it never was.” Everybody is flirting, you’re flirting….” Was the constant mantra. It all went bad.

That’s why I sat through endless Friday night fights of the same old thing recounting everything as if never discussed before. That’s why I stayed and went to counseling and on here. Please, I’m asking where did I go wrong, what can I do to prevent this from happening in the future? And for STAR, what can she do to help us not get into an unresolvable yelling cussing fight by calmly letting me know if a boundary has been crossed or feelings hurt? I went from defending and trying to get her to realize no one here is flirting, no one here has malicious intentions or desires to have emotional affairs. Giving up on that route I asked how can I prove to you that I am not the flirting, inappropriate person you perceive by being transparent, what do you need from me? Nothing helped not even close.


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## trailwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> According to my wife, she is perfect and I am an utter wretch.
> 
> She was telling a friend of ours how horrible I was and her friend looked at me, in a slightly predatory way and said: "But.. you could do worse than Matt... _a lot worse_."


Mr MattMatt, please recite the woman’s creed after me. “I am a woman and I am upset. You are a man, and you must pay.” Remember this forever and welcome to the sh**list for life club.

With exception of two or three specific detailed comments to direct questions I posed nothing whatsoever has been accomplished regarding the tile of this post: “trying to find a solution.” I've actually learned so much here. It has however, unfortunately changed my opinion that there may be stable, secure, independent women out there to the fact they are actually on the endangered species list. A woman sees something that she doesn't understand, she gets upset, and you are to pay. Regardless to real intentions or motives or anyone involved, you will now pay. Finding a solution to prevent further problems is NOT on the agenda. You try to calmly talk, you strategize on proper rules of engagement, you go to counseling, you heed your gf's request and waste several days on a chat room still seeking advice but does anything help? No. Because there’s is no point in helping. Life is now about sitting there mute, listening to the list of grievances each and every week as if they were never discussed before. Then, just when you think the storm is over and maybe you both can get back to the business of living a happy life, it’s time to do it all over again.

Ladies, gentlemen, and the rest of you, I thank you for your input – those that actually did – and I bid you adieu.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Got too hot to handle....


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

""The first problem we encountered was when I commented on a fb photo a female co-worker posted of herself waterskiing for the first time. I said, “Wow, look at that grace and form under pressure.” This of course was meant as a joke because there is no grace and form when you waterski the first time. STAR sees this and explodes focusing on the word “form” She thought I was excited by her feminine form. My God. How did this obvious, clear joking comment get blown so out of proportion?""

You are crazy, dear , I have never brought that up in any of my posts, or Counseling sessions, even so, she is the girl that posted in her FB Cover the picture of two of you "chick to chick, arms around your neck and her body on top of yours." And the one that F*ck your married buddy.

I guess we both need to learn how to pick our mates, me, a more traditional, ethical man and you, the sl*tty type you are costumed to.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

What you cannot understand TRAILWALKER that in order for a woman to feel sexually attracted to her man she needs to feel she is the only one in the relationship. You have proven me time and time again I was just "the one in town."


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## stunned (May 6, 2013)

Wow, the back and forth here is just crazy. Now, from what I understand, you two are broken up. Star said that earlier, and it came across to me that it was of her doing, and that she had no real interest of going back. But now I'm not so sure. At the very least Star, you certainly haven't moved on, judging by your constant replies and defenses. If you had truly moved and and no longer cared, then you wouldn't give a crap about this forum or what TW is saying. But you keep re-engaging, which indicates that you do care. So what exactly is your stance here? Do you have any desire to reconnect with TW? If so, then there are obviously things (many, MANY things) that you two need to talk about and work out. If not, then the easiest thing to do now is to stay away from this thread and let it die. Move on, and stop worrying about defending yourself to anonymous internet posters.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Trail walker,

I read the thread that Star2916 posted. 

Let me give you my gut impression after having read both of your threads.

She is truthful. 

You are not.

The stuff she posted has the ring of truth. 

The stuff you post, is one long denial. 

In fact, in one of the most comical cases of gas lighting I have EVER witnessed, you do this whole sexist rant about women and their emotions and how they punish men. 

But the thing is, Star is actually quite rational. 

And you are doing the hard core guy thing which is: deny until you die

That said. I'm going to try to be balanced here. 

There is a little, teeny, tiny guy inside you who wants to tell the truth. But he's just so tiny, that us people out here can barely hear him. 

So he was the guy screaming from inside about how you tainted her trust early on. 

But then we all kept asking what you did to taint her trust. And well, the core deny til you die reflex kicked in and you said: nothing, I did nothing. 

But I read her thread. And you my man were up to your eyeballs in sexual mischief of one kind or another. 






trailwalker said:


> Mr MattMatt, please recite the woman’s creed after me. “I am a woman and I am upset. You are a man, and you must pay.” Remember this forever and welcome to the sh**list for life club.
> 
> With exception of two or three specific detailed comments to direct questions I posed nothing whatsoever has been accomplished regarding the tile of this post: “trying to find a solution.” I've actually learned so much here. It has however, unfortunately changed my opinion that there may be stable, secure, independent women out there to the fact they are actually on the endangered species list. A woman sees something that she doesn't understand, she gets upset, and you are to pay. Regardless to real intentions or motives or anyone involved, you will now pay. Finding a solution to prevent further problems is NOT on the agenda. You try to calmly talk, you strategize on proper rules of engagement, you go to counseling, you heed your gf's request and waste several days on a chat room still seeking advice but does anything help? No. Because there’s is no point in helping. Life is now about sitting there mute, listening to the list of grievances each and every week as if they were never discussed before. Then, just when you think the storm is over and maybe you both can get back to the business of living a happy life, it’s time to do it all over again.
> 
> Ladies, gentlemen, and the rest of you, I thank you for your input – those that actually did – and I bid you adieu.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Star,

This is a perfect example of exactly why I believe you. 

Trail walker, never mentions the photo of this woman who wrapped herself around him in the way that sexual partners do. 

He leaves out all this super bad stuff.

But then the funniest thing is - he keeps saying that he loves you so much - but that you are insane and jealous. 

But the truth is that if you were insane and jealous like he says, he wouldn't love you so much. 




[/B]


star2916 said:


> ""The first problem we encountered was when I commented on a fb photo a female co-worker posted of herself waterskiing for the first time. I said, “Wow, look at that grace and form under pressure.” This of course was meant as a joke because there is no grace and form when you waterski the first time. STAR sees this and explodes focusing on the word “form” She thought I was excited by her feminine form. My God. How did this obvious, clear joking comment get blown so out of proportion?""
> 
> You are crazy, dear , I have never brought that up in any of my posts, or Counseling sessions, even so, she is the girl that posted in her FB Cover the picture of two of you "chick to chick, arms around your neck and her body on top of yours." And the one that F*ck your married buddy.
> 
> I guess we both need to learn how to pick our mates, me, a more traditional, ethical man and you, the sl*tty type you are costumed to.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Star,

Go find a nice man. I mean it. 






star2916 said:


> What you cannot understand TRAILWALKER that in order for a woman to feel sexually attracted to her man she needs to feel she is the only one in the relationship. You have proven me time and time again I was just "the one in town."


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I love these "Jerry Springer" threads... Great for reading while drinking my morning coffee. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Star,

Yes. I agree with the post below. He leaves out details that completely change the tone of the message. And it is not by accident, he is indeed crafty. 







star2916 said:


> Turnera, look at my only thread again, and you will find the answer there. I have Edited my original post, because so many things were not clarified there at the time.
> 
> I am probably too conservative or traditional when it comes to relationships. I am not "single focus" about anything else, but I have a problem with anyone that is in a relationship with me, which have all these inappropriate, double meaning, flirty conversations with so many females. That is just if nothing else, a distraction and plain and simple immature. When talking to these women, he has been late on me, in multiple occasions.
> And the lies, and the minimizing and the leaving out the words or that particular sentence, where it shows what is going on.
> ...


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

All I know is, he minimizes EVERYTHING and then blames Star. I do like how he PRETENDS he doesn't understand the difference between professional and personal conversations.

Go be a bachelor, there is nothing wrong with screwing, flirting and loving everything that moves. It's when you bring someone into the mix, who wants a relationship, that it becomes wrong.


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## always_hopefull (Aug 11, 2011)

trailwalker said:


> I was NOT in the nude in front of ANYONE. There was a quick, funny video to be made and shown to the entire sales force. The scene was so tasteful it could have been shown to any church going audience with children of any age present. The time spent getting ready and back into my clothes was, guess what, TOTALLY ALONE. my god how you completely misrepresent things... this is just sickening


TW, why, if you weren't naked in front of anyone, were you even naked at all? You claim to be professional yet the work "naked" isn't considered a "professional" term. Unless your a stripper, prostitute or porn star. Tasteful or not, in your opinion, it was beyond inappropriate. 

Star, you don't need any validation to leave him. Just stay gone. Find a nice man who will respect both you and the boundaries if a healthy relationship. 

Good luck to you both!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Trail,

You put out this sexual vibe, then the women with you respond to it. They flirt with you. 

And you then play dumb. Poor me, how can I stop this from happening to me. 



QUOTE=trailwalker;10477354]Like I said I am not the one initiating communication with any female. So to contend I am aiding to the problem, I just don't see it. For the past many months, years, I have asked one simple question: What do you want me to do? Regarding if someone contacts me. She wants me to tell her all about it. I'm referring to the mundane minutia of work discussions. I don't even want to hear those discussions myself much less have to replay all of them the minute I get home. "Hey honey, poor a glass of wine and lets sit here while I go through my phone and try and remember all the work discussions I had throughout the day." And if I forget something then I am classified as a liar, withholding information. Sometimes when I begin to tell her something about a meeting, or communication, she shuts me off and pretends to not want to hear it. Imagine how many more discussions and close situations most people encounter with the opposite sex in typical office jobs where you're there 8 hours a day 5 days a week for years and you're visually seeing these people too. My situation having everyone in remote locations is far less risky to a relationship I'd think; especially when you are not interested in them in the first place; especially when a major rule is to NEVER date a co-worker; and most especially when I am already in a relationship with a woman I truly care about. 

Taking this conversation a few steps back for a moment. The reason I sought out a woman older than I was my desire to enjoy a monogamous, exclusive long term relationship without all the hassles of dealing with a younger, unintelligent, immature flight-risk type of woman. I found that in my gf, former now I guess. I understand most all women get hit on from day one and it continues throughout their lives. Some receive marriage proposals, gifts, and solicitations for pure sex from men often. Imagine not being able to leave the house without someone hitting on you. I came to realize this long ago is the normal circumstance for many women. That’s why when STAR would tell me she had received an offer for regular sex from a total stranger but who was also a neighbor I didn't let it bother me. Neither the time another neighbor offered to whisk her away to his coastal home in Santa Barbara or the multiple times the next door neighbor offered to take her out for drinks. Keep in mind two of these neighbor men had already met me! How rude and presumptive don’t you think? i.e. Jacka$$e$ to be exact! 

Well my options there were I could get angry at my gf and or angry at them. But I chose neither. Its negative energy wouldn't enhance my relationship in any way and only serve to cause problems. One of the many reasons I got involved with a mature woman is for this very situation; I felt she would remain committed to me and not be enticed away on a fling or just leave me altogether. And she did not. I also showed her respect by not getting angry at those men or her, although the ones who knew me shouldn't have approached her out of respect for me and our relationship.

And that is the big difference here. She is continually upset at me for what other people are doing/saying. Why? Did I call my x-wife twice a year? No. Did I tell my co-worker “come and see me, think of you often?” No. And the same goes for all the rest of the upsets. Not my actions but the comments of others is upsetting her. It's all the same thing. People whom never were any relationship threat whatsoever in my past and certainly not now. Years ago, we all had opportunities when we were single to hook up and take things as far as they could go but did not. Why then would that begin to happen all of a sudden as I embark in a relationship with STAR? 

After she told me of some of these events and saw no reaction from me she became angry saying I lacked passion. No, I told her, I have great passion for you but I also trust you and I’m secure in myself and in our relationship. Instead of her being delighted at this news and allowing it to bring us closer together she then grew more skeptical by saying, why do you trust me? You don’t know what I may have done. I said yes of course but again I trust you because you are trustable, that’s why I’m with you.

So, here we have men routinely propositioning her for all sorts of relationship ending affairs and I trust her to do the right thing, and she did. But in my case I have a few long-term friends and one niece saying a few silly insignificant things on fb and text which are absolutely not flirtatious or inappropriate and both I and they have been ridiculed and demeaned continually. For the sake of what? I, my family, and my co-workers are ALL too close and inappropriate and immature apparently.[/QUOTE]


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## CardReader (Aug 15, 2014)

Star, steer clear from this one! 

I'm surprised people are replying to this thread so much. OP reeks of BS, talking in circles. Clearly, has no boundaries.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

Sorry folks for the intensity of that session but I do apply addictions treatment to people who are addicted to themselves.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

I long, long suspected that the reason he hung on to me is because it made having all kind of females friends, with benefits or not , ( I am not sure) all the more exciting. It wasn’t anything about me, I was just a role. 
He needed cover to look good to his friends and family, the comfort and security of ‘having somebody’. 

I suppose he really did ‘need’ me, just not in a way that meant a damn thing to me.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

star2916 said:


> I long, long suspected that the reason he hung on to me is because it made having all kind of females friends, with benefits or not , ( I am not sure) all the more exciting. It wasn’t anything about me, I was just a role.
> He needed cover to look good to his friends and family, the comfort and security of ‘having somebody’.
> 
> I suppose he really did ‘need’ me, just not in a way that meant a damn thing to me.


Well said.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Well.... since the Protagonist of the Show has left the Theater and I was part of the script, I am thinking I should take advantage and ask few questions in my behalf.... 

So Turnera, and the others, would you define the distinction of being INSECURE and feeling INSECURE by circumstances ? 

Would you call someone INSECURE if without doing anything out of the ordinary, you get all that information thrown in your face? it is wrong to be proactive and verbalize your concerns, when certain things keep happening that they are contrary to the definition of " committed " or you must wait until you get bloody proof that the "deed " was done .... .... OH no !


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Seriously.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Here's the bottom line. A secure person, when faced with a person being a jerk...will not accept it. They don't stick around and yell at the person, nag the person, accuse the person. That's the acts of an insecure person who is trying to control the situation and control the other person.

The secure person will say 'are you kidding me? I'm not gonna put up with you hugging that woman in front of me. Find your own way home. I'm leaving.' Or, if it gets worse and he's taking suggestive pictures or receiving sexy texts, won't get mad. She'll LEAVE.

"I don't deserve this crap; sleep somewhere else tonight."

ALL the issues would have been resolved the first month or two if you had just said 'that's not acceptable, get the hell out.'

The SECURE person would have been OK with kicking the other person out, being alone. But you didn't do that. You manipulated. You screamed. You called names. These are the acts of an insecure person who is trying to CONTROL the person in her life so that she isn't alone.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Ah, Thank you Turnera, for kicking in .... 

I see now. Well. 
The picture was taken sometime within the first 6 month of the relationship. And yes I did break up with him over it. 

As you might have seen, he would go on and on why it was not unappropriated, for days, months, years, hell, up to this day.

And I was IN LOVE .... yeah .... I wanted to believe him ....

But there's something you are assuming wrongly .... I am not afraid of being alone, in fact ... I like it.

I was alone before him for 7 years, and I didn't live with him during the relationship, my choice.

I believe part of why I kept going back, he could be so convincing and so sweet, like I have said before, the man can convince anyone about anything he wants, if there's only his part being told ( it happened with the counselors) ( it happened with you guys ... he is a great story make-over) 

Ah, by the way, his version of "my screaming" is asking why is this happening again? Why etc...almost to the point of crying - I do not scream or yell .... is not in my nature, but maybe in some occasions - I needed to voice up in order for me to be heard over "his screaming " . 

Another important part to consider, people have a very different notion of what is flirty or not. It is not black and white. IT only becomes obvious or factual , when things keep repeating and that's why I searched all kind of web sites, read all kind of books, went counseling, thinking, maybe is my European mentality .... , and then, found Tam, at the point, where I was loosing my mind and my identity. 

I guess this is very common when you are involved with , ( forgive me Trailwalker ) a Narcissist? 
I believe that is what happened.

Thank you Turnera for your input. Appreciate it. Something to think more deeply about.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I get taking someone back once because they sweettalk you. I even get taking him back a second time. But after you get the same treatment again, staying is on YOU.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSn9xPnjLps

'"cos when they met, it was moider."

Yeah, that's our two proponents, when they get together bad things happen.

It is over. Thank your lucky stars and move on. Please.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

True.!!! 

Thank you.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Very appreciated. Thanks again.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Star, the reason he kept you was because you were the type of woman he never had per say.. 

He knows that all these woman he might date or have casual encounters are just that.. He knows, he is just another swinging d!ck to them.. 

So he meets you and back then decided or realized this is what I need in my life a real committed intelligent woman.. 

But unfortunately that playboy side of him, that flirty nature is hard to get away from. 

I will tell you I had and have this type of situation with my off and now on current GF.. 

I swear I want to put up a camera up in her place or some how have a camera over her shoulder just to see what goes on when I am not around. She tells me she doesn't give ANYONE the time of day, but in the end everyone wants to give her the time of day.. I don't get it.. I tell her, there must be something YOUR doing to give these people the impression its okay to flirt.. 

Nonetheless, she recently conceded that these guy friends thing was inappropriate.. Whether she is just saying it to say it or actually means its is another story.. 

These things are stuff we are going to get out in couples counseling.. 

The good thing that occurred during the 2 week break up with me and her was, even though I know there were men waiting in line to fvck her.. No grass was growing under my feet as well. 

I tried to keep my mouth shut but she went on about some thing so I told her I was going to meet someone and that completely turned the tables around.. She now truly felt the sting of jealously.. 

Oddly enough my personal therapist sent me an except from something he was reading.. Which basically was him telling me it's okay to have these feelings of jealously when this person is doing what they do.. 

Attached is the excerpt from his book

*Mike’s vulnerable self provides a perfect backdrop for Ann’s display of negativity as she projects onto Mike that it is “bad” to feel jealous and want exclusivity in their relationship. Mike and Ann have been together on and off for 7 years. He wants her to give up her old boyfriends and make a final commitment to move in with him. Ann appears bewildered and shocked that he could make such a request of her. 

Mike: How can you keep doing this to me? Why don’t you give up your old boyfriends? Ann: [Appears surprised] How can you ask me to give up my friends? I don’t ask you to give up your friends. Of course, you don’t have any anyway. Mike: [Pleadingly] How can you keep doing this to me? Why don’t you give them up? How can you expect to be in a relationship with me and still flirt with your old boyfriends? Ann: Is it normal for him to want me to give up everything for him? Therapist: [To Ann] Do Mike’s needs seem strange to you? Ann: These friends make me feel good, whereas with Mike I always feel guilty, as if I’ve done something wrong. Mike: [Blurts out] This makes me feel that I’m not good enough for you, Ann, as if I don’t exist. You seem to need all the guys even when things are going well. [Silence]

Mike: I know her alimony is running out, and that’s the only reason she will consider moving in with me. Th: Isn’t your loving Ann enough? Mike: Well, I want to know that she loves me. Isn’t that something that anyone would want to know? Look, though, what she does to me! Ann: There he goes again. He’s always so jealous! Mike: Well, how can I stop feeling so jealous when you have all these guys? Th: Just as you are entitled to have others appreciate, admire, and value you, as these “friends” do, then so does Mike have the right to his feelings. In this instance, Mike has the right to feel jealous.*

As crazy as this all is. The nicest thing my GF has told me is the following.. I would rather be fighting with you all the time then not be with you. These past 2 weeks were very painful and I love you very much.. 

I told her I would only do this if she went to counseling with me.. She agreed. Though she thinks she is perfect.. I am hoping this will shed some light on this for her.. Otherwise this will be a sad ending to all of this.. I can let go of many things she does, but not this guy stuff.. It drives me nuts.. I can see the both of you in us as well.. its crazy nonsense and you wonder, why the fvck can't we just get past this retarded nonsense and fix this for us..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No offense, h2h, but you two don't seem very compatible.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Turnera, I do not agree with you . People are not PERFECT, relationships are not Perfect, and some people just do not see it, in part, because the way they were raised.
I was taught very early on, when I was a toddler the meaning of respect and later the meaning of authenticity, ethics and moral values, even so I am not religious anymore, these things are an integral part of me as an individual.
People are flirtatious because the current society allows it and approves it. Period. 
These people know what they are doing is wrong, but they just keep doing it, because normally there are not major consequences, and if we say anything or call on them, we are tagged as " Insecure" 

HARTOHANDLE, thank you for your post, and I do agree with you.
The difference here, is that he doesn't think it's anything wrong with him and or his friends, coworkers, I am the "crazy, nagging, overly jealous, paranoid, etc etc etc ... no negotiations here, not even a bit. 
I wish you the best. At least you got a good Counselor. The ones I went to see were awful.


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

Hartohandle: "Star, the reason he kept you was because you were the type of woman he never had per say..

He knows that all these woman he might date or have casual encounters are just that.. He knows, he is just another swinging d!ck to them..

So he meets you and back then decided or realized this is what I need in my life a real committed intelligent woman..

But unfortunately that playboy side of him, that flirty nature is hard to get away from.

I will tell you I had and have this type of situation with my off and now on current GF..

I swear I want to put up a camera up in her place or some how have a camera over her shoulder just to see what goes on when I am not around. She tells me she doesn't give ANYONE the time of day, but in the end everyone wants to give her the time of day.. I don't get it.. I tell her, there must be something YOUR doing to give these people the impression its okay to flirt.."" 

You have not idea how much this spoke to me and how do I relate with it, word to word, thank you for posting .


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

"""""This needs to be cleared up because yet again I am accused of something that isn't true. You have confused reality with the thoughts and ideas in your mind. I never placed you in a separate basket in Facebook. I had always tried to keep things organized such as creating separate folders for photos on there. And Then I discovered you can create a group for emailing purposes so I created one for family, school, and work. But NONE separating you from the world so I wouldn't see something. Again you are upset and totally wrong. I did mention to you during yet another discussion after you complained that I had you last on my list: there was my family my co-workers and then way down at the bottom was you. I said quite the opposite is true actually. In my mind you are in a totally different “basket” than anybody else. There are my feelings for my family, there is my mutual respect and appreciation for my co-workers and then totally off in another realm are my feelings for you. """""

After reading again all the posts from His thread .... wow .... what a Deceptive individual he is .... At to this point, after a year of detachment ... cannot believe it ....He told me : " I placed you in a different basket" these were his words.
Meaning, so he can relate with these people as his normal fashion without me seeing it. 

I know this thread is old, but believe me ... still hurts ....
Me, being a total, matter of fact, always truthful person, involved with a narcissist jer& that never never cared...


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

I have to finally let go of the "hurt of unfairness " because that is the only thing that still keeps me somewhat attached emotionally to the past. If I do that and do not expect sincerity on his part, which it will never happens, I will be finally FREE.

Thank you Everyone for all your help.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

turnera said:


> No offense, h2h, but you two don't seem very compatible.


Turnera, I completely understand.. You are a very smart person.. I don't want to derail this thread with my issues.. 

My friend Richie asked me, " Do you really need this in your life"... I turned to him as we were walking and said flat out "Yea because I love her and if we can get past this on both ends I think we are good for each other"

He looked at me and said then do what you need to fix this.. If you think counseling is gonna help then great.. I will tell you this you don't give up. I hope she appreciates the kind of guy you are. 

I said I hope so too..

For me I need to go down this road..


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

malagacoast said:


> Star, His whole thread, scenario, is such that should be played out in junior high school, not in a professional environment by supposed mature adults.
> This man-child will have a problem with every relationship he gets in. Although he has probably realized, he would have to be more careful next time, he will be doing more of this under radar, more lies more deleting more of everything.
> I found by experience these men are usually extremely hard to change for the best.
> I am amazed you have put with his behavior for so long.
> Do not give him any more power over you and go and find yourself a real man.


Emotions are emotions regardless of age.. I've read threads on *life after divorce* about senior citizens breaking up because one of them were interested in someone else.. 

This type of stuff doesn't pop up instantly.. It is something that creeps up over time in the relationship.. 

For me months into it I noticed the guy friends.. I did my interrogation ( yes that what it was and she doesn't like it ) and fact finding and realized it was beta orbiters. It took a few months for me to deal with this.. I went the several routes of ignoring, praising.. But then I when I seen nothing worked.. I gave her the finger and walked out the door.. 

That worked.. She came running to stop me..

Then then it transferred to telling me about who was interested in her.. Of course it was never oh this guy was trying to pick me up.. It was more like, would you believe I am trying to teach this woman's son and she wants me to sit at the table with the contractor and have coffee.. I finally had to because I didn't want to upset her.. 

Then I had to deal with that nonsense.. Her excuse was I am her best friend.. She feels she can and should tell me anything.. 

I told her no she can't..That she should tell that sh!t to her girlfriends.. Of course you know her response, I don't have any girlfriends.. 

I said too bad, find one that isn't looking to cheat on her husband and is your age group.

We are an odd couple for sure..


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