# Nice guys finish last, and they should.



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

So posting on another topic got me thinking. Though this is a marriage forum this is a topic that us guys should talk about, even if it is to talk about with our sons or young men we know who are struggling. It's something I wish I had known when I was in high school and my early 20's as I was the classic nice guy. Primarily raised by my Mother on a day to day basis. So I thought I would just put down my feelings on this as maybe it will be helpful. OR maybe I just like to see myself type. >

So when I say "nice guy" I mean this. 



Google said:


> Nice Guy™ is a term in Internet discourse describing a man or teenage boy with a fixation on a friendship building over time into a romance, most stereotypically by providing a woman with emotional support when she is having difficulties with another male partner.
> 
> The terms Nice Guy™ and Nice Guy syndrome are used to describe men who view themselves as prototypical "nice guys," but whose "nice deeds" are in reality only motivated by attempts to passively please women into a relationship and/or sex.


This is really just passive aggression. It's a strategic way to try to minimize risk of rejection. It's also not being honest in your relationship. I think it is also is very unattractive to women who tend to see assertiveness as an attractive quality.

I also believe these are the guys who end up getting married to cheaters and get cheated on in the most brutal fashion. The problem is that through all of this they think all the issues can be solved by being nice or self-sacrificing. Being decent should just be the base line of being a productive human being, it's certainly not a reason to think women will want to date you. Frankly I think lots of women sense this entitlement from these guys and are put off by it. Besides that you don't want your mate to want to be with you just because you are decent, you want her to want you because she finds you attractive, assertive, and good. The women who marry just because the guy is a "nice guy" basically settle and usually end up unhappy, many cheat or just leave (not excusing this behavior). 

Besides all that there are times when you shouldn't be "nice", like when your mate is pushing your boundaries. Nope you should push back, decent people respect that. Being "nice" in the hopes of changing a person's treatment of you makes you look weak, because most of the time it is done out of fear. Again it's about minimizing risk. Again it's not being honest about what you are thinking and feeling. I think most women find this kind of passive fear a big turn off, in a sense they look to us as kind of an anchor at least I know my wife does. So acting this way makes them feel like they are on their own. They are naturally attracted to strength. 

So what do you do if you are not attractive and assertive. Well first you change your thinking and then you work hard to be those things. There are plenty of books about being assertive. But I think the most important thing is just being honest and speaking your mind. The one thing with that is to not to over compensate because you are trying to overcome fear. I suspect this may be hard at first and you may come of as defensive, but over time this becomes easier. You should do this with every aspect of your life. It really is a better way to live. Also this doesn't mean you should be inflexible being strong also means being strong enough to change if you realize you were wrong. Even apologize if necessary. 

Next attractiveness, I always think if you are not in the baseline why not get plastic surgery and get in shape. Being attractive is an important first step to attracting a mate no doubt, but it's also not a static thing. One can change their appearance, lose weight, put on muscle and dress well. In extreme circumstances like say you have a nose that doesn't fit your face you can get that fixed. That cost about $6000 dollars I think, the cost of a gym membership is about $1000 a year and time. Clothing may very. That is a lot but one of the things you need to attract a mate is a good job so if you don't have some sort of career path you should be looking for one. Preferably with some extra spending money you can use to pay for these things. If you do it's worth the money if you want a mate. No pain no gain as they say. 

I wonder if there are services that Men can go to to help them dress better and improve their appearance. As it stands now the internet has tons and tons of information for both sexes. If you are struggling in attracting a mate and or dating I would start here. 

Learning how to be a better communicator.
How to dress for men.
This one only takes effort and discipline. About 2 years I would say.
How to plan a good date.

Thoughts?

By the way the women who is attracted to the bad boy is just the female version of this type of guy in the sense that she doesn't have a handle on what it takes to have a relationship. She like attractive, and assertive but forgets about the good.


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## PreRaph (Jun 13, 2017)

I'll be honest: nothing annoys me or bores me more than all this talk about Mr. Nice Guy and Mr. Bad Boy. It's so trite and so empty.

No matter how hard you try--and you tried pretty hard I'll admit--you are doomed to talk in cliches because that's what Mr. Nice Guy is, a cliche. If a woman is so stupid as to compartmentalize men in either of those two classes then that's her misfortune and she'll be the one to pay for it more than you, my friend.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

I think it goes a step further and Nice PEOPLE finish last. And not just "nice" from what you posted as being masked passive aggressiveness. Nice as in truly nice. 

Selfish *******s finish ahead of the nice ones. They may have moments in their life where it catches up with them briefly. But overall? Nah. Being nice gets you used and tossed aside. That part probably does go along with what you are talking about. Use the nice guy then find the ******* that gets your loins all tingly.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I think we need to differentiate between "nice" guys, as you have described them, and "good" guys, as what I think men should strive to be. 

I try to be a good guy, but I'm not really that nice.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

finish "what" last? Lunch?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> So posting on another topic got me thinking. Though this is a marriage forum this is a topic that us guys should talk about, even if it is to talk about with our sons or young men we know who are struggling. It's something I wish I had known when I was in high school and my early 20's as I was the classic nice guy. Primarily raised by my Mother on a day to day basis. So I thought I would just put down my feelings on this as maybe it will be helpful. OR maybe I just like to see myself type. >
> 
> So when I say "nice guy" I mean this.
> 
> ...


When you answered my post on the other thread you said that women can see through the nice guy facade and see it as passive aggressive and make men feel entitled.This isn't what I was thinking about at all.I was talking about decent guys who would treat anyone well,not just a date, but because they don't have film star looks they get passed over for some handsome loser who has a "bad boy" reputation.Now I'm not taking about guys who resemble Quasimodos uglier brother but normal average men.And these women aren't exactly Rosie Huntington Whitely lookalikes either.
These women later complain that there are no decent guys around but this is when they have realised that there are a lot of younger and hotter girls on the scene.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> When you answered my post on the other thread you said that women can see through the nice guy facade and see it as passive aggressive and make men feel entitled.This isn't what I was thinking about at all.I was talking about decent guys who would treat anyone well,not just a date, but because they don't have film star looks they get passed over for some handsome loser who has a "bad boy" reputation.Now I'm not taking about guys who resemble Quasimodos uglier brother but normal average men.And these women aren't exactly Rosie Huntington Whitely lookalikes either.
> These women later complain that there are no decent guys around but this is when they have realised that there are a lot of younger and hotter girls on the scene.


This is why I didn't post this answer in that thread. Granted this is a very broad post and I didn't want to come off like I was thinking you were justifying this behavior. I just kept expending on the topic as I wrote but it didn't really even seem to address what you said anymore so I started this thread. 

My questions about those guys are they assertive? Do they know how to talk. Do they ask the girls out.

The women you describe are pretty much the female version of the guy I talked about above. They just may be a lost cause, but there are plenty of girls who are just normal and decent. The trick I found was when I met a "nice girl" to not even bother. Just move on. Girls who like the bad boy are a trap.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Middle of Everything said:


> I think it goes a step further and Nice PEOPLE finish last. And not just "nice" from what you posted as being masked passive aggressiveness. Nice as in truly nice.
> 
> Selfish *******s finish ahead of the nice ones. They may have moments in their life where it catches up with them briefly. But overall? Nah. Being nice gets you used and tossed aside. That part probably does go along with what you are talking about. Use the nice guy then find the ******* that gets your loins all tingly.


Yeah but I mean we all pretty much figured that out when we were young right? We all eventually figure out the who cheaters never prosper is a bunch of bull a lot of times right? Lots of cheaters do great in life. I mean if you are being a good person for some reward then you are going to be surly disappointed. Life is unjust. The only reason to do good is because it's the right thing to do. For your own personal integrity.

My post was more about being inauthentic and passive aggressive.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> I think we need to differentiate between "nice" guys, as you have described them, and "good" guys, as what I think men should strive to be.
> 
> I try to be a good guy, but I'm not really that nice.


I agree, in my post you notice I do just that. Your last sentence is exactly how I see it as well.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The phrases "nice guys finish first (or last)" were invented before the INTERNET PHRASE DISTORTION ENGINE got its hands on the terms. They referred to ..we... guys who are nice. (eg not selfish, try to help others etc). 

Now the phrase somehow refers to guys who pretend to be nice as some sort of passive-aggressive plan to manipulation - which has nothing to do with being nice. (pretending to be nice isn't even passive-aggressive, its deceptive). 

I don't know if these "nice guys" actually exist, I've never met one. Often they are talked about by people who are selfilsh and are trying to present the manipulative "nice guy" as the only alternative to selfishness. 


I would say that altruistic men (the opposite of selfish) often do very well in life.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Of course "Nice guys Finish last" we are polite and believe a lady should come first.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Do people know "nice guys" by this definition? People who pretend to be nice and actually are using it to be manipulative? In what sorts of situations have you met them?


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

urf said:


> finish "what" last? Lunch?


I'm pretty sure that OP meant that Nice Guys finish last in bed. 

It's well known that Bad Boys suffer from premature ejaculation and thus finish sooner.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

Oh, that makes sense.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Mr. Nail said:


> Of course "Nice guys Finish last" we are polite and believe a lady should come first.


I married a very NICE man (he's not a prick, very forgiving , affectionate and kind).. he's always been able to hold out for me... I rarely miss an O... it sure helps !


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Nice Guy Syndrome is different than being a nice person. Some of us read Dr. Glover's book and saw much of ourselves in it. Others just don't see it.

I am certain it exists, though it is probably an amalgam of various dysfunctional attitudes and though patterns, and caused by a variety of childhood experiences. One would really have to read the Doc's book to understand the web of behaviors and thought processes involved.

In some ways it is a false belief system that other people are generally good and nice, and so if we lead by example we will be rewarded. In some ways a very Disney fairy tale kind of belief. If we work hard, our efforts will be noticed and rewarded. Uh, bull**** in the real world, but nice in a Disney movie. It is the jerk who may not even be very competent who markets himself who gets the promotions and raises.

Extended to marriage, the Nice Guy believes if he treats his wife like the Princess he thinks she is, she will reward him with sex and fidelity. Yeah we all know how that one works out, don't we!

Then there's the Covert Contract. I'm not sure where this one comes from in one's childhood, but Nice Guys are big on this. If he does something, he gets something else in return. e.g. if he does the laundry she'll give him sex. Except nobody ever had the discussion and made such an agreement, so when she doesn't provide sex that night he is all hurt his efforts were not rewarded.

Sexual toxic shame is another common factor with Nice Guys. That's a big topic really. Toxic shame leads to unhealthy behaviors in relationships. It also makes communications about sex problematic.

And the whole thing about Jerks getting the woman. Yeah, it is true. We've all seen it, we all know jerks who somehow bed lots of women. They don't seem to have good long term relationships, though.

Doc uses the term "Integrated Male" to describe the ideal man. He isn't Nice and he isn't a Jerk. He has his act together. He is masculine. He knows himself, knows what he wants, is confident in himself. He treats people with respect. He works hard. He is not afraid to stand up for himself. He is not afraid to promote himself and to seek the rewards he should have. He doesn't feel guilty about success. He brings his sexual agenda to relationships. He is direct in communications.

In prior eras one might have described a Nice Guy a Momma's boy, or someone who just needed to man up and reclaim his balls.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I think your post is a very good follow to what I was trying to describe. Here are some follow up comments. 



Thor said:


> It is the jerk who may not even be very competent who markets himself who gets the promotions and raises.
> 
> This is really the one thing I don't agree with. I don't think it matters if you are a jerk or not and actually if you are a jerk sometimes that works against you. The only thing that matters is that he "markets himself". Just like the guy who is good at starting up conversations with women he doesn't know will end up going on more dates. Being assertive is one the best skills to have in life to get ahead. Being a Jerk or not doesn't really matter when it comes to that.
> 
> ...


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Just to add, one of the distorted thoughts the Nice Guy has is that the opposite of Nice is Jerk. That is, the guy thinks he should be Nice because otherwise he will be seen as a Jerk. He has no understanding of what Doc calls the Integrated Male.

Now there certainly is such a thing as a Jerk, but being a Jerk is not required to be successful. But the Jerk has some skills as you pointed out such as being confident and knowing how to approach people to have conversations with them. The Integrated Male also has the confidence and the interpersonal skills, so he will be successful, too.

What bothers me and I'm sure others is when someone is obviously a jerk yet they fool people. Maybe it is the boss who doesn't see the jerk is scamming his way into a promotion or award. Maybe it is the woman who doesn't see the jerk is just using games to reel her in for some sex before he dumps her. Watching such a thing happen is very frustrating, but even more so for the Nice Guy who finds it so deeply unfair, since he surely deserves those rewards more than the Jerk.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thor said:


> What bothers me and I'm sure others is when someone is obviously a jerk yet they fool people. Maybe it is the boss who doesn't see the jerk is scamming his way into a promotion or award. Maybe it is the woman who doesn't see the jerk is just using games to reel her in for some sex before he dumps her. Watching such a thing happen is very frustrating, but even more so for the Nice Guy who finds it so deeply unfair, since he surely deserves those rewards more than the Jerk.


Sometimes this is true but not always. In my experience of evaluating employees for instance the guy who stays the latest isn't always the best employee. Many times he may just be slow to get his work done. Also an employee may not be the hardest worker maybe he gets his work done but doesn't really do much more, but he may bring a social dynamic to the group that is needed to help the comradery. A lot of time there is a trade off, experience may be more important then earnestness. Having lots of people who fit well together in a group may be better then having 4 geniuses who no one can stand. Overall I just don't think decisions about promotions are as easy as picking the one who works the hardest. 

The old adage of work hard and you will be rewarded is kind of too simplistic. Work hard, have good communication skills, work well with others, learn where to apply your resources, learn to read the room, department and the company you work for. Sometimes the play is to leave and go somewhere else. It's a lot more then just working hard. 

As for the people who stay with or constantly date jerks, who use them and play games do so because they want to. They get something out of it, it's usually because they are broken. A person who gets used for sex repeatedly is either very broken or really likes the sex and pretends like they don't. 

Everyone has agency, the older I get the less I believe that any of this happens without the person it's happening to at least tacitly approving. Hence I would never white knight anymore (not talking about someone whose car gets a flat, talking about the person who complains about their problems over and over with out taking the steps to fix them). I really don't believe people who have repeated drama in their life want it any different. They are like a emotional trap. 

This is also what nice guys don't get. Strong socially successful guys wouldn't waste time trying to have a serious relationship with the drama queens the nice guys pine over. They just date them for short periods to have fun. 

Anyway that is my two cents.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Andy1001 said:


> When you answered my post on the other thread you said that women can see through the nice guy facade and see it as passive aggressive and make men feel entitled.This isn't what I was thinking about at all.I was talking about decent guys who would treat anyone well,not just a date, but because they don't have film star looks they get passed over for some handsome loser who has a "bad boy" reputation.Now I'm not taking about guys who resemble Quasimodos uglier brother but normal average men.And these women aren't exactly Rosie Huntington Whitely lookalikes either.
> These women later complain that there are no decent guys around but this is when they have realised that there are a lot of younger and hotter girls on the scene.


I've noticed this too, and I've never understood it. I often hear that there are no decent men left. There are plenty, but they may not all necessarily be hanging out in bars or on dating sites or be the best friend of an acquaintance of the last loser a woman dated. 

Just to use an extreme example, I was never shocked that a woman who was a gang member would date another gang member, but I never understood why a woman who came from a normal family and had plans of college, a career, and kids would want to date one.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

I guess I was not a nice guy then. I do not believe in having female friends other than those in a sexual relationship with me. What you describe is not being nice. It is being afraid of rejection and feeling insecure. Things that not only hinder you with women but in life too. Many guys go for the easy friendship route. It is easier to go the route you speak of than just go in for the kiss and take it from there. I believe that if the attraction is not there at once, move on to someone else. I got engaged in my wife after dating her for three weeks. We are married for over 44 years because I am very secure in what I bring to the table, know that girls are attracted to me and not afraid of a female telling me no. I played football most of my young life so being told no by a girl is not something that I feared. 

A lot of girls want to be seduced. They do not want to appear to be easy. "I don't normally do this on the first date", is a common comment but it never stopped me. I had a 17 year old girlfriend when I was 14. She took me to her senior prom the following year. Confidence and knowing you make a girl scream out your name, goes a long way in the sex department. That same confidence made me successful in business. I did not get ahead by being nice. I was not bad either. I just never took a backseat to anyone or gave up too easily. 

I had a friend in his mid thirties who asked me and my wife to double date with him and a girl he liked. He told us that whenever he tried to get serious with girls he was friends with, they would tell him that they love him but only like a brother. So we went with him. He was a very nice guy. Too nice. He never slow danced with the girl. He never touched her in any way while talking to her. He was the perfect gentleman and did not even try for a goodnight kiss. It was obvious what his problem was, he kept going into the friendship zone from which there was no escape. Women like alpha men. It is genetic. I had over 30 sexual encounters with women and only dated 3 of them. Girls just wanted sex with me because I was a very alpha male. Football player, combat vet, etc.. I took charge. I made them wet. I gave them intense orgasms and in some cases, their first orgasm other than by masturbation. Nice guys do not finish last, they finish too quickly.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ey? Meh, I can be romantic but emotionally unavailable, honest but brutally, confident but insensitive, and I will make fun of you - and laugh when you do a pouty face! ^_^

And... they like it, so ok :scratchhead: aint complaining!

I don't think I'm an alpha male, nor do I think I'm a nice guy, think I'm just a beast that woman seem to wanna try to tame, and fail miserably as I'm not only untameable but I make them go wild!  Hehe


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

sokillme said:


> This is really just passive aggression. It's a strategic way to try to minimize risk of rejection. It's also not being honest in your relationship. I think it is also is very unattractive to women who tend to see assertiveness as an attractive quality.


Here's my first - and only thought.

Since you are already aware that "nice guy" is an aphorism for "passive aggressive" (and, in other contexts, weak, spineless and beta male), please join me in the cause of fixing our cultural narrative.

A genuine "nice guy" is someone who is polite, shows concern for others, keeps his needs in mind too - and is alpha in every other way. Please do not allow the compliment "nice guy" become the derogatory "nice guy". If someone means "passive aggressive", then call it that.

This will also elevate it out of being a gender war item into a communications disorder that can attach itself to either gender. Women are not immune to being passive aggressive either, and we don't call them "nice girls".

Getting the descriptive words right will put it into the right context, which will help the people exhibiting the behavior to realize how much better their lives will be if they outgrow it.

And, let me add, in my experience - if a person is passive-aggressive in their personal/romantic relationships - that's how they are in other important relationships. This ineffective communications method will stunt a person's career growth, spiritual growth and emotional growth, as well as stunting their romantic lives.

Just one canine's bark...

woof


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Think it's a little more than just passive-aggressiveness, I found many women want many other different things; success, mystery, challenge, adventure, romance, to varying degrees. Some may hate one and love another. For example, I lack on the clinge-worthy romance crap and many other women find it weird too - like "eww wtf! that's creepy!", but I know women who sworn over crazy displays of affection, displays of affection that make other people cringe!

In the end, seems more like just different pieces of the gargantuan puzzle of human mating. 
Not just "alphas" and "betas"


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

DustyDog said:


> Here's my first - and only thought.
> 
> Since you are already aware that "nice guy" is an aphorism for "passive aggressive" (and, in other contexts, weak, spineless and beta male), please join me in the cause of fixing our cultural narrative.


But it isn't being a nice guy, it is being a Nice Guy. It is having a constellation of behaviors and thought patterns which are known as the Nice Guy Syndrome.

That group of behaviors and dysfunctional thought processes is much more than simple passive aggression. It needs a name of some sort. Nice Guy is in fact a very good descriptor to use.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It drives me crazy when people (through the internet) re-define words and phrases to mean something else. It confuses discussion. 

If someone means "passive aggressive", then say that. If they say Nice Guy, many people interpret that to mean "opposite of *******" and think you are saying that being an ******* is a good thing.

I've never encountered someone who fits this version of manipulative "nice guy" that is being discussed. It seems to involve someone who does minor favors and says some nice words then insists on being compensated. I'm not sure though - the description seems very fuzzy to me. 

What specifically are we talking about? Is it someone who brings his wife flowers, and then expects a 3some with her and her sister? Or are we just talking about someone who thinks both gifts of flowers and sex are expected in marriage?








Thor said:


> But it isn't being a nice guy, it is being a Nice Guy. It is having a constellation of behaviors and thought patterns which are known as the Nice Guy Syndrome.
> 
> That group of behaviors and dysfunctional thought processes is much more than simple passive aggression. It needs a name of some sort. Nice Guy is in fact a very good descriptor to use.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

uhtred said:


> It drives me crazy when people (through the internet) re-define words and phrases to mean something else. It confuses discussion.
> 
> If someone means "passive aggressive", then say that. If they say Nice Guy, many people interpret that to mean "opposite of *******" and think you are saying that being an ******* is a good thing.


I was thinking the same thing. If someone is passive aggressive or merely acts nice, but has an ulterior motive, that person should not be described as a "nice guy". Nice should mean nice.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

uhtred said:


> It drives me crazy when people (through the internet) re-define words and phrases to mean something else. It confuses discussion.
> 
> If someone means "passive aggressive", then say that. If they say Nice Guy, many people interpret that to mean "opposite of *******" and think you are saying that being an ******* is a good thing.
> 
> ...


That has nothing to do with the internet. Maybe the change happens faster now in the communication age, but this is the nature of the human language and communication.  Like it or not "nice guy" is a part of the lexicon now. The links on the first post do an adequate job of describing the type of behavior we are talking about.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

The topic is probably over my head but after reading it the only thought that comes to mind is:

I think people would probably be much better off not approaching relationships using gimmicks and formulas (alpha male and nice guy/badboy bs) and focus on understanding themself.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

uhtred said:


> It drives me crazy when people (through the internet) re-define words and phrases to mean something else. It confuses discussion.
> 
> If someone means "passive aggressive", then say that. If they say Nice Guy, many people interpret that to mean "opposite of *******" and think you are saying that being an ******* is a good thing.
> 
> ...


You'd have to read the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover to understand fully what it means. It includes behaviors such as covert contracts and conflict avoidance. It includes dysfunctional psychological issues such as sexual toxic shame. It includes incorrect beliefs about the world, such as karma (getting rewarded for good performance, and those who behave poorly will not be rewarded). Scarcity thinking is a big part of it, as is a generally low self esteem.

Other than using the term Nice Guy Syndrome, there is nothing other than making up an entirely new word to label it.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Haiku said:


> The topic is probably over my head but after reading it the only thought that comes to mind is:
> 
> I think people would probably be much better off not approaching relationships using gimmicks and formulas (alpha male and nice guy/badboy bs) and focus on understanding themself.


Agreed, but the Nice Guy who is actually pathologically a Nice Guy doesn't see his actions as a formula or gimmick. It isn't like the pick up artist who uses a set of techniques to fool the woman. It isn't the guy who pretends to be something he isn't. It isn't even about being intentionally Alpha or Beta.

NG's believe they are good people. They see themselves as being nice! They put others first, but they do it to a dysfunctional level. They think it is nice to help others, but they suppress their own needs and desires whether it be in a personal relationship or professionally. They believe if they lead by example doing good things for others, then the others will do good things for them. Which of course rarely works out and leads to a lot of unhappiness.

Nice Guy within a romantic relationship is a really broken template of how things work, not a conscious game.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

Thor said:


> Agreed, but the Nice Guy who is actually pathologically a Nice Guy doesn't see his actions as a formula or gimmick. It isn't like the pick up artist who uses a set of techniques to fool the woman. It isn't the guy who pretends to be something he isn't. It isn't even about being intentionally Alpha or Beta.
> 
> NG's believe they are good people. They see themselves as being nice! They put others first, but they do it to a dysfunctional level. They think it is nice to help others, but they suppress their own needs and desires whether it be in a personal relationship or professionally. They believe if they lead by example doing good things for others, then the others will do good things for them. Which of course rarely works out and leads to a lot of unhappiness.
> 
> Nice Guy within a romantic relationship is a really broken template of how things work, not a conscious game.


Why does anyone care about what others think of themself? Maybe that guy doesn't see himself as a nice or bad guy but just himself...you put that label on him. 

Most people can barely run their own life, why do they think they know what's best for others? That's why I am of the thought it's better to encourage people to get to know what they like and dislike and understand their own personality.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That is rather different from passive aggressive. What you describe here may lead to the "nice guy" being disappointed that others are not nice in return, but as described is not negative for anyone else. 

This really is a nice guy in the old fashioned sense who tries to be helpful for others and expects the same in return. Is that what we are talking about here?

Is the suggestion that doing favors is wrong unless you have worked out an agreement on what favors are expected in return?







Thor said:


> snip
> NG's believe they are good people. They see themselves as being nice! They put others first, but they do it to a dysfunctional level. They think it is nice to help others, but they suppress their own needs and desires whether it be in a personal relationship or professionally. They believe if they lead by example doing good things for others, then the others will do good things for them. Which of course rarely works out and leads to a lot of unhappiness.
> 
> Nice Guy within a romantic relationship is a really broken template of how things work, not a conscious game.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Thor said:


> But it isn't being a nice guy, it is being a Nice Guy. It is having a constellation of behaviors and thought patterns which are known as the Nice Guy Syndrome.
> 
> That group of behaviors and dysfunctional thought processes is much more than simple passive aggression. It needs a name of some sort. Nice Guy is in fact a very good descriptor to use.


No clinical definition of "Nice Guy Syndrome" exists, to my knowledge. I have read blog entries, watched YouTube videos, etc, and every person claiming to understand "Nice Guy Syndrome" and then to offer cures, describes it differently, sometimes in direct opposition to a definition presented by someone else. So, at best, it is a vaguely defined term. Of the "experts" I've read or watched, what they describe varies, but usually contains elements of low self-value, a belief in external locus of control, a belief that the world owes them something, indirect communications style, people-pleasing personality type (clinical) and so on. Five men who may all be described as having "Nice Guy Syndrome" will likely each have a different set of issues, and working through them will be different for each man...a different constellation for each one. Also, every one of those issues crops up in women as well.

IMO, this diminishes the notion of using the phrase at all - it neither helps the guy overcome it, nor helps a woman understand why he has it, and naming it thus implies only men can have the problem, therefore women are predisposed to not look for the same issues in themselves...even though some of those issues are actually more prevalent in women than men.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

uhtred said:


> That is rather different from passive aggressive. What you describe here may lead to the "nice guy" being disappointed that others are not nice in return, but as described is not negative for anyone else.
> 
> This really is a nice guy in the old fashioned sense who tries to be helpful for others and expects the same in return. Is that what we are talking about here?
> 
> Is the suggestion that doing favors is wrong unless you have worked out an agreement on what favors are expected in return?


Nice Guys can get passive aggressive, but that isn't the only thing they do.

The _pathological_ Nice Guy is not doing nice things out of kindness, he is doing it to get something in return. Perhaps it is a lot further out from the normal spectrum, because we all generally expect some form of return in at least a vague way when we help others. If we help a friend move, we expect at some point he'll return the favor somehow. But when we do help our friend move, we want to help him. Our motivation is to help our friend. We may enjoy the buddy time and the beer, too. The Nice Guy _pretends to_ want to help, so it starts of insincere. And he'll do lots of these things for lots of people, building up resentment along the way. His help isn't true kindness, it is selfish.

As far as an explicit agreement ahead of time, it is a different flavor than normal. This dysfunctional thought process manifested in the covert contract. A classic example is he does the dishes with the _expectation_ his wife will give him sex that night. But she has learned this pattern and feels put off by it. Then he gets annoyed he didn't get sex. The key is he got annoyed, which he had no right to do because there was no agreement ahead of time that dishes = sex later. He didn't do the dishes to be helpful, he did it because then she'd _owe_ him sex. But she never agreed to that exchange.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

DustyDog said:


> No clinical definition of "Nice Guy Syndrome" exists, to my knowledge..


I would defer to Dr. Glover who has described it in his book for a definition. It is as official as "Love Language" or "Love Buster", just something a psych doctor has put together as a description of a common situation.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed. It feels related to the whole popularized "alpha" / "beta" where people interpret "alpha" to be everything good and "beta" to be everything bad - robbing the terms of any non-trivial meaning.




DustyDog said:


> No clinical definition of "Nice Guy Syndrome" exists, to my knowledge. I have read blog entries, watched YouTube videos, etc, and every person claiming to understand "Nice Guy Syndrome" and then to offer cures, describes it differently, sometimes in direct opposition to a definition presented by someone else. So, at best, it is a vaguely defined term. Of the "experts" I've read or watched, what they describe varies, but usually contains elements of low self-value, a belief in external locus of control, a belief that the world owes them something, indirect communications style, people-pleasing personality type (clinical) and so on. Five men who may all be described as having "Nice Guy Syndrome" will likely each have a different set of issues, and working through them will be different for each man...a different constellation for each one. Also, every one of those issues crops up in women as well.
> 
> IMO, this diminishes the notion of using the phrase at all - it neither helps the guy overcome it, nor helps a woman understand why he has it, and naming it thus implies only men can have the problem, therefore women are predisposed to not look for the same issues in themselves...even though some of those issues are actually more prevalent in women than men.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It seems to be internal then. A Nice Guy can't easily be distinguished from a nice guy by external observations. Both do favors, but one is upset when they don't get what they expect in return. 

Even then it seems a matter of degree. Most people put effort into their marriages, work, do chores, etc, and "expect" their partners to make a similar contribution. I don't think that would count as an unreasonable "covert contract". 

Expecting sex in return for doing dishes does seem unreasonable. OTOH if someone is a good husband / wife, is it unreasonable for them to expect a good sex life as part of their marriage?





Thor said:


> Nice Guys can get passive aggressive, but that isn't the only thing they do.
> 
> The _pathological_ Nice Guy is not doing nice things out of kindness, he is doing it to get something in return. Perhaps it is a lot further out from the normal spectrum, because we all generally expect some form of return in at least a vague way when we help others. If we help a friend move, we expect at some point he'll return the favor somehow. But when we do help our friend move, we want to help him. Our motivation is to help our friend. We may enjoy the buddy time and the beer, too. The Nice Guy _pretends to_ want to help, so it starts of insincere. And he'll do lots of these things for lots of people, building up resentment along the way. His help isn't true kindness, it is selfish.
> 
> As far as an explicit agreement ahead of time, it is a different flavor than normal. This dysfunctional thought process manifested in the covert contract. A classic example is he does the dishes with the _expectation_ his wife will give him sex that night. But she has learned this pattern and feels put off by it. Then he gets annoyed he didn't get sex. The key is he got annoyed, which he had no right to do because there was no agreement ahead of time that dishes = sex later. He didn't do the dishes to be helpful, he did it because then she'd _owe_ him sex. But she never agreed to that exchange.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Men should just be men, not boys. That is all.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Lot's of interesting takes here. Normally I tend to agree with a lot of what Uhtred says and how he thinks. But in this case I would agree with Thor. Nice Guy and nice guy do NOT mean the same thing. One is a title and the other is a phrase. Secondly, the difference between the two lie in the first having expectations based on nothing more than their own thoughts, while the second lacks nay expectations and simply does something for the sake of doing it rather than expecting some sort of payback. There is no disappointment in the latter, whereas the former is offended at the rejection.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

A lot may depend on what is meant by "expectations". If you spend a day helping a friend move, just as a favor, I think its reasonable to expect that they would put a similar effort in for you sometime when you need it. You are doing the specific action out of a desire to be helpful, but you expect you friendship to be reasonably balanced.

Similarly in marriage, while the idea that "I do the dishes" will be reciprocated by "she gives me a BJ", is clearly bad, I think expecting a generally balanced marriage where similar levels of effort and favors are provided is OK.

Having never met someone who fits the "Nice Guy" model of wanting something in return for every favor, I don't have a good handle on what such a person is like. 




Ynot said:


> Lot's of interesting takes here. Normally I tend to agree with a lot of what Uhtred says and how he thinks. But in this case I would agree with Thor. Nice Guy and nice guy do NOT mean the same thing. One is a title and the other is a phrase. Secondly, the difference between the two lie in the first having expectations based on nothing more than their own thoughts, while the second lacks nay expectations and simply does something for the sake of doing it rather than expecting some sort of payback. There is no disappointment in the latter, whereas the former is offended at the rejection.


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