# "Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?



## SimplyAmorous

As with any "ism".....there are various views ...as well as experiences to share...WHY we feel as we do... when we read responses here, such as  this one -post #83...


jld said:


> *We are probably both just in a fog about each other. Objectively we are nothing special. But to each other, we are very special.*


 .... it's a perfect example of some "Idealism" at play within a marriage... one can "feel it" in the expression....how a partner speaks about the other... some may feel it's unhealthy even but it's also passionate & inspiring many times...at the very least there is some Grey in this concept...One can find articles on both sides: 

 
The Danger of Idealism in Marriage


> If you base your views about relationships on cheesy romance novels or Hollywood chick-flicks you are not only in for a rude awakening, but you may also be putting your marriage (or future marriage) in jeopardy. Research shows that couples who believe in the concept of "soul mates" are at much higher risk of disenchantment, conflict, and divorce. Couples who hold the more traditional view of marriage being based on a lifelong mutual commitment are happier, fight less, and are more likely to stay together...
> 
> The problem with the soul mate view is that it goes hand in hand with the romanticized idea that if you marry Mr. Right or Miss Right your life will be nothing but wonderful all of the time. Such people tend to think that the role of their spouse and the reason for their marriage is to "make" them happy and fulfilled. However, idealistic views of relationships and marriage are dangerous for many reasons.


 my initial thought when reading this 1st paragraph was...the idea of Romance is exhilarating....better than watching endless lifetime movies of betrayal & cheating... but it surely doesn't cross out or nullify the more traditional view of lifelong mutual commitment.. also seeing our partners flaws, being realistic at the same time..

The 2nd paragraph... this appears more an issue with self awareness - doing what WE can meet our partner half way... instead of selfishly sitting back expecting someone to "serve" us -making us happy.. it always takes 2 doing their part....and less to do whether a couple refers to each other as "soul mates"... a poster left this quote yrs ago here, how she felt about her husband.... I have read many that resonate, our experiences may not all start out as immediate & strong as hers, but when she speaks of it growing over time.. I very much relate....


LadyDee said:


> A person with whom you have an immediate connection the moment you meet -- a connection so strong that you are drawn to them in a way you have never experienced before. As this connection develops over time, you experience a love so deep, strong and complex, that you begin to doubt that you have ever truly loved anyone prior.
> 
> Your soul mate understands and connects with you in every way and on every level, which brings a sense of peace, calmness and happiness when you are around them. And when you are not around them, you are all that much more aware of the harshness of life, and how bonding with another person in this way is the most significant and satisfying thing you will experience in your lifetime. You are also all that much aware of the beauty in life, because you have been given a great gift and will always be thankful.


 ......









... feeling this way doesn't mean you never have valleys , etc.. or that another person couldn't be a good match if a loved one died.. 

Idealism could be the key to a happy marriage  ...  The Secret To A Successful Marriage May Be Idealism: Study



> The study suggests that if you view your partner in an extremely positive light, however unrealistic that may be, it’s more likely to trigger greater forgiveness when things get difficult, and a greater tendency to look for positive reasons for your partners behavior. These conclusions came after research involving 222 couples in their first marriages. They connected “unrealistic idealisation at the time of marriage to changes in satisfaction over the first three years of marriage.”
> 
> While normally satisfaction between couples goes down over time the study concluded that seeing your partner as a reflection of their ideals provided some protection against the decline in satisfaction. Griffin further concluded that this connection between idealism and successful marriages isn’t just down to individuals being optimistic about their relationship and that the connection holds for less optimistic individuals as well.


Idealizing Your Partner Isn’t Necessarily a Bad Thing



> Consider this though: research has found that partner idealization can actually protect couples from the dissatisfaction that normally characterizes the post honeymoon phase of a relationship. In fact, people who idealized their partners often don’t experience a significant decline in relationship satisfaction. This is a pretty astounding concept, considering we’ve traditionally been conditioned to accept that when courtship transitions to the less exciting reality of day-to-day relationship maintenance, romantic love is hard to keep up.
> 
> No doubt this is realistic. But maybe being “realistic” is better served in the way we idealize our partner. The protective effect of partner idealization doesn’t come from simply seeing your partner more positively, and trying once again to overlook their flaws, but bringing your idealized image of a partner closer to how you see your actual partner. The critical difference is instead of saying, “she’s perfect,” try saying “she’s not perfect, but she’s perfect for me.” ...
> 
> Which is more realistic to attain? It’s a little like the maxim, “If you want something done right, do it yourself.” It also prevents you from being at the whim of fate. Endeavoring for “perfect for me” still requires effort, but perhaps a more rewarding, if not preventative sort. Instead of later having to consider one’s part in patterns, or a dynamic that’s not working, recognize and take responsibility for what you need from the start, and be willing to express this to your partner. However to give “she’s not perfect” its fair due, one needs to not only recognize and understand their partner’s needs, but their limitations—respectively. While this won’t safeguard against problems, it will help distinguish problems from partners. This also helps prevent us from seeing our partners in either unrealistically positive or negative terms, and allows the possibility for understanding or forgiveness for a partner’s less than endearing qualities.
> 
> Similar to “reciprocal overlooking” idealization in this sense is also reciprocal, by establishing willingness to support each other to be their best selves, rather than criticize, point fingers, or keep score, and continuing to remind them they aren’t your ideal.


Thoughts... do you have some of this going on in your Marriage? Have you found it unhealthy , more hurtful ?? Please share....


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## Ynot

You mistake selfishness with greed. Greed would be sitting back expecting to be pleased. Selfishness means that you make choices to have that person in your life because they are that important to you. The problem is that most people are really greedy, not selfish. Greediness is irrational selfishness, where you only think about what makes you happy in the moment. A rationally selfish person will forego some short term pleasure in order to gain in the long term.

Typically couples who have committed relationships built on mutual respect practice selfishness on an on going manner. Those with a lot of issues tend to have at least one greedy partner. They expect happiness and if they can't, don't or aren't getting from their spouse they act out - some cheat, some become workaholics, others do retail therapy etc. Partnerships built on greed typically fail.


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## uhtred

There is a difference between having an idealistic view of marriage, and having an idealistic view of your partner. 

The first might lead to you unrealistic expectations and weaken the marriage. The second will cause you to view your partner more positively and may strengthen the marriage. 

Idealism shouldn't be a lie, but I think its fine for it to distort things in a positive way. I see nothing about believing that you partner is more attractive than a rational person might think.


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## Vinnydee

Lots of philosophical viewpoints. We subscribed to what Gracie X said, "I’ve seen how the whole relationship lockdown breeds an almost viral tendency to take the other person for granted, to have huge expectations, and to deliver this all from a sense of duty and obligation — without a thank you!" We were non monogamous until 7 years ago in our 44 year marriage. We designed our own marriage because we knew that no too people can fulfill all the needs of another. We lived 30 years sharing the same girlfriend. As a poly triad, all of our important needs were fulfill among the three of us. We did a little group sex but ultimately sex with people you do not have an emotional tie with was not satisfying for us.

I do not believe in soul mates as if out of all the girls in the world, your soul mate just happened to live in your small spot of the world, unless you believe in multiple soul mates which assumes that many have the same soul. We never had a picture of what a marriage should be. We never had kids, we moved 13 times and we partied whenever we could. We made it up as we went along with no expectations. Never any jealousy. My wife discovered her bisexuality during our marriage so we made room for that by sharing her girlfriends. We had no master plan or expectations of what our marriage should be. I like to live outside of the box and with a 50% divorce rate in monogamous marriages, I thought it was not smart to follow the marriage plan that all others do with only a 50/50 chance of success. So we lived outside the marriage law and did whatever worked for us. It worked wonderfully too.


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## SimplyAmorous

Another article... The Process of Idealization -The powerful phenomenon that convinces us that our partners are the best. 



> Research has shown that most of us desire a partner who is, among other things, attractive, trustworthy, warm, successful, and intelligent. However, despite what every romantic comedy would try to tell you, it's difficult to find a partner with all these characteristics. Luckily for us, our memories, and the power of idealization, can help us think we've found someone with all of these qualities anyway. Just like rom-coms are edited to ensure that the heroine's frog turns into a prince by the final credits, our memories also undergo several edits and rewrites as new information is added.
> 
> Specifically, idealization occurs when we generate positive illusions by maximizing virtues and minimizing flaws. These illusions are a combination of a partner's actual traits coupled with the belief that his or her faults are minimal. It's not that we believe the person we are attracted to is a saint, we just tend to deem their flaws (i.e. the aforementioned shoes, haircuts, and comments) as special and unique.
> 
> * As long as this is carried out to a realistic degree, benefits may incur. However, those who unrealistically lionize lovers, and create qualities that their partner does not possess, may be at risk for disillusionment and disappointment. (Not surprisingly, research has shown that newlyweds reported less satisfaction when their partners turned out to be less ideal than they initially thought.)
> 
> Those of us who appropriately idealize their partners have all the facts, we just interpret them in a more positive light. It makes sense to beef up the image of those people we like, given that we want to be liked by those whom we view as desirable. A self-fulfilling prophecy may also take place when we treat our partners like they are wonderful and talented people, in that we actually help elicit this behavior from them and, in doing so, enhance their self-esteem. By believing that one's partner is the best, we may help him or her become their ideal self—an effect known as the "Michelangelo Phenomenon "


Some may be more prone to "Idealism" even.... this stood out to me while reading this book...  The Good Marriage: How and Why Love Lasts, it spoke of a deeper influence to it.. ...This book explained 5 different types of Marriages...

1) The Romantic Marriage... 2) Rescue Marriage... 3) Companionate Marriage... 4) Traditional Marriage and. 5) The Renegotiating Marriage

The Chapter on "*the Romantic Marriage*".. .. many in these type marriages speak of a "hole" in their childhoods.. a severe loss... it spoke of one woman who never had a Mother, she was deprived of maternal affection & love, how her mother didn't touch her.. In my life.. my mother loved me.. but she left me.. she had a nervous breakdown & ran off with an alcoholic.. she was my best friend before that.. my world so to speak, and that was ripped from me.. 

This chapter specifically spoke of Idealization here ...



> "Marriage without fantasy or idealization is dull & dispirited.. Many of the divorced couples I've seen appear to have never idealized each other. I've learned to ask myself about a divorcing couple (obviiousy I can't say it directly), was there ever a marraige here? Was there ever love, joy, hope, or idealization in this relationship? Often I'm hard put to find it. Divorce does not always represent an erosion of love or higher expectations; in many cases the expectations weren't high enough.
> 
> Idealization of the other is part of every happy marriage. In a Romantic marriage, the early idealizations remain very powerful".





> All Courtship begins with a fantasy - a fervent desire, bordering on delusion, that another person can step in & magically undo all of life's hurts and disappointments . The new loved one will adore you forever, protect you, drive away wicked people, make you feel whole, valued, beautiful, worthy, and honorable - forever...
> 
> ...a few more paragraphs it says this...
> 
> "Every child experiences some hurts & losses while growing up, no matter how loving the parents. Of the people in Romantic marriages, a high proportion had sustained severe losses during childhood, including the death or physical or mental illness of a parent, Sara & to a lessor extent Matt, did not feel loved by their Mothers. Both spoke of having a "hole' in their childhoods. The sense of magic and of a relationship that extends beyond time and space may rest on the unconscious connection between the adult lover and the lost beloved person from childhood"
> 
> 
> It spoke of men..
> 
> " Several of the men in romantic marriages had lonely, isolated childhoods in which fantasy probably played an important role. Others had sustained losses as children, the mothers of 2 were hospitalized for many years. These men came to adulthood with intense, long postponed needs for love & closeness.
> 
> These men's sense of making up for early losses may help explain why they felt almost physically connected to their wives. The couples in romantic marriages often seemed to have an unusual unity, not only on an emotional level, but on a physical level as well.."I've never not felt in love with her. I've never even had dreams in which I was with someone else. She is very much a part of me, a soul mate".. said one man.. His wife said .."I feel whole when he's in the house".
> 
> In fact, each partner's central identity was defined by the marital bond, as it they were halves of a whole.
> 
> It went on to speak of a man who described the early losses & the love for his wife..he was an only child who lost his father in an airplane crash when he was 10, then his Mom became a falling down drunk...family life was non -existent.. growing up he watched "Father knows Best"...he would think "I wish I had a family like that...I knew I was missing something...it was a stable family, they respected each other, they dealt with the little foibles of life, nothing could destroy that stability"..
> 
> That television show kept his hope alive.. it was the church of his childhood..and in his marriage his passionate love for his wife reflected his joy, his sense of having been granted a miracle, and his sheer incredulity at finding her....


When I read all of that.. I could relate feeling like this man...(also an only child).... I enjoyed watching shows like the Waltons , Little House on the Prairie .... loved that Larger family stability ...or listening to my Grandmother next door speak of her Courtship with my Grandfather.... these things surely influenced me and gave me hope for my own future.


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## Married but Happy

IMO, slightly idealizing your partner is a good thing, as it provides a positive viewpoint that makes forgiving and compromising easier when needed. We see each other as wonderful, and largely, I think that's true because we are kind, compassionate, loving, and supportive of each other, especially when life is difficult. We're not perfect, but do give each other the benefit of the doubt when issues arise, and that makes them easier to resolve. I'd also say we have a Romantic marriage, and are very close, but not joined at the hip like some of those (almost codependent) examples SA gives. We tend to be very pragmatic, and think the concept of soul mates is ludicrous - we do think two people can be unusually compatible, and we fall into that category.

"Idealization of the other is part of every happy marriage. In a Romantic marriage, the early idealizations remain very powerful". I'd say this is true for us, and we continually reinforce it.

Marriage itself holds no magic - if anything, we'd rather do without it as we see it as a very flawed institution, but there are pragmatic benefits, and we can shape our marriage to our own liking to avoid what we see as the negatives.


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## SimplyAmorous

Ynot said:


> You mistake selfishness with greed. Greed would be sitting back expecting to be pleased. Selfishness means that you make choices to have that person in your life because they are that important to you. The problem is that most people are really greedy, not selfish. Greediness is irrational selfishness, where you only think about what makes you happy in the moment. *A rationally selfish person will forego some short term pleasure in order to gain in the long term.*
> 
> Typically couples who have committed relationships built on mutual respect practice selfishness on an on going manner. Those with a lot of issues tend to have at least one greedy partner. They expect happiness and if they can't, don't or aren't getting from their spouse they act out - some cheat, some become workaholics, others do retail therapy etc. Partnerships built on greed typically fail.


Selfishness is not generally a term that is a virtue.. Looking up Rational selfishness -- Ayn Rand comes up.. I never read her book - "The Virtue of Selfishness" ....I would argue I want some of this from my lover , that he selfishly wants gratified as I am being pleasured too... I've reasoned we're all selfish on my Compatibility thread, an opening line even.... that we want what we want...so better to be matched up with someone who "selfishly" wants the same things.. (lots of touch, sex, time together for example)... it sure will make for a smoother marital ride...

Somehow I could see my husband disagreeing with the word to be used like this..... I guess it's all semantics though... just as others do not like the term "soul mates" under any circumstances...regardless if a description of feeling may capture HOW we feel... or Idealism is always unhealthy... 

I am confused on why it is spelled 2 different ways ...if I am using the term correctly even? 

I associate Greed generally with money and materialism, CEO pay comes to mind immediately.. but true.. we can be greedy with anything obviously, like having our way...and it's very destructive in relationships..


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## SimplyAmorous

uhtred said:


> *There is a difference between having an idealistic view of marriage, and having an idealistic view of your partner.*


 Very true.. when titling this thread.. I was purely thinking in lines of my partner... it didn't dawn on me -even once that I could have worded this thread differently.. good point !

So yes.. I meant it in the context of how we are viewing our spouse...as you laid out here.. 



> *The first might lead to you unrealistic expectations and weaken the marriage. The second will cause you to view your partner more positively and may strengthen the marriage.
> 
> Idealism shouldn't be a lie, but I think its fine for it to distort things in a positive way.*


I so agree !


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## SimplyAmorous

Vinnydee said:


> Lots of philosophical viewpoints. We subscribed to what Gracie X said, "I’ve seen how the whole relationship lockdown breeds an almost viral tendency to take the other person for granted, to have huge expectations, and to deliver this all from a sense of duty and obligation — without a thank you!" We were non monogamous until 7 years ago in our 44 year marriage. We designed our own marriage because we knew that no too people can fulfill all the needs of another. We lived 30 years sharing the same girlfriend. As a poly triad, all of our important needs were fulfill among the three of us. We did a little group sex but ultimately sex with people you do not have an emotional tie with was not satisfying for us.
> 
> *I do not believe in soul mates as if out of all the girls in the world, your soul mate just happened to live in your small spot of the world, unless you believe in multiple soul mates which assumes that many have the same soul. We never had a picture of what a marriage should be. We never had kids, we moved 13 times and we partied whenever we could. We made it up as we went along with no expectations. *Never any jealousy. My wife discovered her bisexuality during our marriage so we made room for that by sharing her girlfriends. We had no master plan or expectations of what our marriage should be. I like to live outside of the box and with a 50% divorce rate in monogamous marriages, I thought it was not smart to follow the marriage plan that all others do with only a 50/50 chance of success. So we lived outside the marriage law and did whatever worked for us. It worked wonderfully too.


People should be happy and satisfied in their relationships.. sounds you met someone compatible enough with your vision, even if starting out you had no vision or plan or expectations (this is difficult for me to fathom as I am the complete upside down opposite)... but that's OK.. you obviously chose wisely , you & she making it up along the way, partying your way through .... 

Your wife discovering her bisexuality years in... you rode with it...I can see you both LOVE the adventure.. that's a part of who you are, what fulfills you & she.. 

I argued against the whole soulmate concept here > http://talkaboutmarriage.com/relati...ut-being-soulmates-opinions-appreciated.html  (post #13) for the reason you give ....though I still love that he calls me his soul mate.. I wouldn't take this away...I find it "endearing"...


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## ConanHub

I guess having love goggles on can blind me towards an idealistic view of Mrs. Conan.

I don't know.

If someone makes you feel really good about yourself and fulfills you sexually and romantically, is it idealizing them to think they are wonderful?

I believe making someone feel those things is truly wonderful!

I'm under no illusion about us as people. We are in fairly extraordinary shape for our age range and are highly affectionate.

Other than that, we are pretty normal people.


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## SimplyAmorous

Married but Happy said:


> *IMO, slightly idealizing your partner is a good thing, as it provides a positive viewpoint that makes forgiving and compromising easier when needed. We see each other as wonderful, and largely, I think that's true because we are kind, compassionate, loving, and supportive of each other, especially when life is difficult. We're not perfect, but do give each other the benefit of the doubt when issues arise, and that makes them easier to resolve.*


 Yes.. it works this way, it makes forgiving easier...we seek the best in each other... that "benefit of the doubt" is at play...

I will soon share a personal example of what it may FEEL LIKE to suddenly lose this adoring "idealization" that we've carried, it may cause us to be "cold", questioning, it's not so pretty... 



> I'd also say we have a Romantic marriage, and are very close, but not joined at the hip like some of those (almost codependent) examples SA gives.


 But why are these examples almost Co-dependent ...even if they are more joined at the hip over what another's marriage may be....by such measurements, some may deem our marriage almost Co-dependent... 

Back to @Ynot 's point about Selfishness ... I'd say some of us (I've met other couples even) both selfishly LIKE TO SPEND TIME together...it is what it is.. I am working full time + now, sometimes 50 hrs a week, kinda sucks...less time with hubby / family.. I leave before he gets home...I'm missing our time together already.... 
I never asked him, but here he waits up for me many nights, taking a nap after work so we can still get some time in, watch a movie /







.... I am sacrificing some of our time today doing this thread, I miss posting here!!.. he's Ok with that, would never complain...... tomorrow I'll be gone for 16 straight hrs...it's OK.. we do what we have to do.. outside of today.. I generally do what I can to maximize our time together... he always appreciated this -while showing me he cares about it too....

Co-dependency is not healthy.. as explained in this article Codependency vs. Interdependency ...such couples "relate to others in unhealthy ways with patterns of obsession, self-sacrifice, dysfunctional communication, and control, which are both self-destructive and hurtful to others. They’re often abusive or allow themselves to be abused."

I don't see any of this in the Romantic couples examples ... even if they come from a lonelier childhood, and may be prone to a little more "idealism" with their partners when the love is flowing...being expressed as mutual....


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## jld

I think it is fine to be idealistic about one's partner, if they have earned that.

I know Dug is not perfect. Sometimes he makes mistakes. But he does a lot of things right, and sets a high bar.

I would not want to be with someone who did not inspire me, who did not make me think the world could be a better place if more people were like him. 

Maybe I was just made to do hero worship.


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## jld

SA, I just found an interesting quote. I hope you don't mind my posting it here.

_"If you want to know what a man's character is really like... ask him to tell you the living person he most admires - for hero worship is the truest index of a man's private nature."_


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## meson

Idealism might be ok for some people but not for us. We ground our relationship not on some imaginary vision of the other but on who our spouse really is. We each have flaws and we understand them so that the appearance of them doesn't disrupt the marriage.

You've heard me say this before, SA, the concept of a soul mate is poison and should not be thought of as the ideal for a relationship. The reality is that there can be many people who can qualify and fulfill being a "soul mate". Once the concept of a soul mate is introduced as there can be only one true love you have set the relationship to fail if that person runs into someone else that fits the bill. This then will more likely cause them to doubt the original attachment.

I think it's better to live in reality than a fairy tail.


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## SimplyAmorous

I am going to share an experience...very fitting for this thread...

Before I go here..1st let me say... We are a couple who have always Felt strongly that we share something very special and beautiful, feeling blessed to have met each other.. even to the point of Fate.. for instance.. I prayed specifically for a man LIKE HIM.. it's like God sent him to me...he ticked nearly every box...... For him, he's always said it was "Love at 1st sight" , sex was not even on his mind.. he just wanted to "get to know me".... I told him that's not normal.. but I also hold these things very dear... so we're a couple who's always felt this "idealism" , how it's helpful, holds the romance...

Then ONE NIGHT.... (learn from me.. better to not go certain places with our mouths...there was utterly no point to this at all)...but I guess it's good for this thread !

A few weeks back...I was reading a few articles how UNHEALTHY it is to Idealize a spouse (I want to hear both sides -even if I may feel differently, it challenges my thinking)...yet it can make one question too... Something set me off...I got upset wanting him to come on to me (something stupid)..I was just in an ornery mood... It was THAT time of month... (no excuse I know) ... this was a lousy time to unload what I've been reading... 

So I start telling him.....he's always had me on a Pedestal and that I'm nothing special .. that he's been duped.. that it's only because he has "Idealized me" that he's been so wonderful through the years, always forgiving.... like it's all in his head, all a facade ....I am a "screw up" like everyone else... Ok...I've said this before.. my mouth can Over run in a heated moment.. Here I am slaughtering myself before him...probably feeling guilty for starting a fight .... Do I sound crazy yet ?

He suddenly got very quiet... then his face turned cold like...the wheels were turning.. he looks at me & asks with the most serious of faces...."Have I done this, has it all been a LIE.. was it all just in my head ?"..... he was processing these thoughts I unloaded on him.... the seriousness continued....his countenance almost numb... he made a few comments reasoning this out.. that if I am "nothing special", if I am just like every other woman, what is there... it was like it changed EVERYTHING , his perception of me was now TAINTED...he questioned himself / us... 

I asked him if he still loved me...his answer was "I don't know"... he said he didn't know anything anymore... In all our years (35 so far)..I have never experienced this feeling , he was scaring me, like I opened a Pandora's box I could not shut again .... I start to feel sick to my stomach ...a rush of sadness / dread washes over me...feelings of > "Oh my God , what have I done!!... did I just destroy US... his love for me!??"... this went on for about 45 minutes.... it was SOBERING ...I cried like I couldn't stop... he didn't hold me at 1st - I never experienced THAT before either .. he always reached for me, wanted to comfort me, no matter what the argument, he was there for me...this was different...

What could I do now.. but throw myself on him, for being so foolish as to go here, say these things to hurt each other...also to present the other side... what it's always BEEN... reminding him how Special he is to me, that no man could take his place, I gave him a cup on Valentines day "Mr Right"... he's always been my "Mr Right"....sure he pisses me off at times, but still...both of us have viewed it all as such Minor offenses, small bumps in the road of a long joyous journey together... we've bared each other easily.. due to looking upon those positives, laughing at our Quirks , making fun of our flaws along the way... 

I reasoned how "love is Blind" many times....he's put up with me happily all these years.. it has to be!... it's a testament to us even.....how this is NOT damaging, happiness resides there .. though obviously ripping away his perception of what we've had, causing him to question...rending it to "nothing special"... it devastated him... it's like the lights went out, a dark void...he said " a feeling of emptiness"... 

He eventually reached for me, told me he loved me, we both agreed we'll happily remain "blind"...this has held our happiness all through the years.. just a matter of minutes and we washed it all away... on to make up sex ! and never looked back... but yeah.. this really opened my eyes...


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## SimplyAmorous

meson said:


> Idealism might be ok for some people but not for us. We ground our relationship not on some imaginary vision of the other but on who our spouse really is. We each have flaws and we understand them so that the appearance of them doesn't disrupt the marriage.
> 
> You've heard me say this before, SA, the concept of a soul mate is poison and should not be thought of as the ideal for a relationship. The reality is that there can be many people who can qualify and fulfill being a "soul mate". Once the concept of a soul mate is introduced as there can be only one true love you have set the relationship to fail if that person runs into someone else that fits the bill. This then will more likely cause them to doubt the original attachment.
> 
> I think it's better to live in reality than a fairy tail.


I hope this is not how I come off.. I have always prided myself on being a Realist.... my husband tells me I THINK too much...I lost my religion on a quest for the authentic.. I've always been a questioner... because I do value what is real... 

When it comes to love, being loved.. sharing love....We feel it when we are, don't we... actions speak...our connection speaks this authenticity of emotion. 

I understand fully there is a FOG in the beginning of relationships... that we often over look things seeing what we want to see, there is an iffy window of 18 months a couple should be very careful....

We could all sit here & probably fire off a small list of things we'd tweak about our spouses... couldn't we... Do you think I wouldn't have a list ? Sure I would !.. but still....what's on it, these things are so minor in nature...still our lives are so much brighter to have this person in it.. 

I really don't feel another could replace my husband, how many guys like to watch chick flicks with their wives & don't like sports?.. he's a rarity for sure... For me, so much is wrapped up in the memories a couple has too - I am someone who ENJOYS looking back .. some nostalgia, there is a sentimental longing , affection for the past we've shared also... 

There are some people.. I've heard they have no use for that... it's all about "live for today.. never look back"... I would not be able to relate to this..


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## jld

If I could not look up to a man, I do not think I would even want to be with him.

I want to be inspired. I want to feel his presence in my life is making me a better person.

I don't mind feeling somewhat lesser in a relationship, if my vulnerability is respected and not scorned. If I did not feel loved and cherished, why would I even want to stay?


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## Emerging Buddhist

EB2 is not much into idealism, she admires my strengths yet finds conflict in them for reasons still being sorted out. 

She had a rough couple of weeks as her brother passed away from Leukemia (diagnosed just December 2016) and chose not to travel back to Europe for the funeral. As she was Skype-ing with our nieces, they were talking about the "Highland way" of sarcasm as a compliment... it was an interesting conversation to listen to as they talked about what was normal banter far up North in the UK was seen as rude and sarcastic down south in London and the rest of the world they traveled. In essence, if I make fun of you, it means I like you and am comfortable around you, an interesting awareness for me to consider from that moment forward and while it may be seemingly late in our almost 30 years together, is welcome for our remaining ones.

Inspirations come in many different forms... for years I expected to be inspired, as I expected a spouse in marriage should provide that one should lead, follow or get out of the way, when EB2 would provide none of the three and expectations would then seem self-sabatouging as what I saw when I placed her in any of the three roles were left unfulfilled by her and seemingly un-allowed to be filled by me. Since neither option offered inspiration, how is this resolved? It was only when I learned to accept this was how it was did the best path fall to my feet and saw other options than the one that seemingly barred our success, newly inspired.

I find us in an interesting place these days, I am "in love" with a spouse who makes fun of my idealistically "hapless" romanticism (word meant as written  ) yet I know EB2 well enough to know that if she did not in her way love me and feel I was worth staying with, she would not be here... and that says a lot to me these days.

And I believe my resolve to appreciate like the reed in the wind, looking back just enough in the bend to gather what I need in my reflection of what was, to know what I choose for the present and not too much as I spring back just a little for the future while her reed remains planted firm and stoically and loudly making fun of how I flex, yet quietly accepting that I do. 

Today, that is ideal.


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## Ynot

SimplyAmorous said:


> Selfishness is not generally a term that is a virtue.. Looking up Rational selfishness -- Ayn Rand comes up.. I never read her book - "The Virtue of Selfishness" ....I would argue I want some of this from my lover , that he selfishly wants gratified as I am being pleasured too... I've reasoned we're all selfish on my Compatibility thread, an opening line even.... that we want what we want...so better to be matched up with someone who "selfishly" wants the same things.. (lots of touch, sex, time together for example)... it sure will make for a smoother marital ride...
> 
> Somehow I could see my husband disagreeing with the word to be used like this..... I guess it's all semantics though... just as others do not like the term "soul mates" under any circumstances...regardless if a description of feeling may capture HOW we feel... or Idealism is always unhealthy...
> 
> I am confused on why it is spelled 2 different ways ...if I am using the term correctly even?
> 
> I associate Greed generally with money and materialism, CEO pay comes to mind immediately.. but true.. we can be greedy with anything obviously, like having our way...and it's very destructive in relationships..



Selfishness is not generally considered a virtue because of how society views it. In our society we are taught from an early age by parents, teachers and authority to be selfless or to put others first. Because we are taught selflessness is the ideal, we come to assume the selfishness must be bad and it is equated with greed.


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## SimplyAmorous

Ynot said:


> Selfishness is not generally considered a virtue because of how society views it. In our society we are taught from an early age by parents, teachers and authority to be selfless or to put others first. Because we are taught selflessness is the ideal, we come to assume the selfishness must be bad and it is equated with greed.


I think myself & you would find some disagreement on this...

You likely admire this Ayn Rand character also.. I have watched some of her videos on You tube and cringe.. though ..I don't fully GET her message... that Speaker of the House Paul Ryan is an admirer .... I can not express the disdain I feel for that man and his politics....but that's another thread...

I am admittedly MORE SELFISH over my husband.. If I don't watch myself... I can be bossy...more take charge.. thankfully we think so much alike on issues, this has never been a contention with us... but but but...

I personally tend to LOOK UP to those are LESS SELFISH ... because it's a quality that I do admire.. even if I kinda suck at it myself sometimes..

We bought chocolate bars out the other night.. I wanted his -after I ate mine.. I'm selfish.. he let me eat it... but I shouldn't have asked.. stupid example.. he'd NEVER do that to me or one of the kids.. he's a good example of someone who seems to get Joy for doing for other people.. That to me is a GOOD person.. 

I like GOOD people.. I don't admire selfishness in others... I feel it is the ruination of many relationships, friendships, causes problems in the work place, and on it goes.. Every situation is different though.. 

There IS surely a PLACE for "doing for ourselves" for our own happiness.. of course. I've never personally been the "unconditional lover" type either.


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## arbitrator

*It's just deeply ingrained within my job description that I be "idealistic" about my mate. When I love a mate ~ trust me ~ it's for the long haul, unless of course, they give me reason to ultimately doubt myself!

When I love them, I "idealistically" love very deeply! But then again, that's just me and my self-imposed expectations! *


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## SimplyAmorous

arbitrator said:


> *It's just deeply ingrained within my job description that I be "idealistic" about my mate. When I love a mate ~ trust me ~ it's for the long haul, unless of course, they give me reason to ultimately doubt myself!
> 
> When I love them, I "idealistically" love very deeply! But then again, that's just me and my self-imposed expectations! *


 Spoken from the mouth of a true Romantic... we're just wired this way.. can we even help it ?? 



jld said:


> If I could not look up to a man, I do not think I would even want to be with him.


 I am sure we all have our internal NEEDS in a spouse ... I could not be with someone who wasn't "responsible " (this covers many areas, keeping a job, his word, etc) or wasted money... so we'd never accomplish our dreams.. 

In line with @arbitrator 's post... I don't think I would be satisfied if a man wasn't haplessly idealistic to some degree about the romance we share.. I don't need flowers or jewels, or anything fancy.. but I need "emotion" expressed now & then, some passion for us...


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## notmyrealname4

Everyone here is selfish. And that's a good thing. Who else can see to your needs better than you?

I'm glad that there were people "selfish" enough to pursue their dreams of being musicians, or actors, doctors or civil engineers. They were "selfish" enough to follow their star; and we all profit from their "selfishness".

Selfishness is not the same as cruelty, ruthlessness or arrogance. It means living for yourself first; then others follow. A very loving parent might stand in front of a train for their kid, but that's about it. Most of us want to make sure that number one is okay.

Soulmates, as it applies to marriage, is an abomination. It doesn't exist and we can only help future generations by laughing it out of existence.

I have come across theories that we have many, many soulmates. That it refers to a group of souls that we belong to, and you might not be married to one of them. Your soulmates help you through life and vice versa. Supposedly, you agree to do this before incarnating into this world.

I can believe in* that*. But there being only one person that you can truly fall in love with, and that you must be 100% completely compatible, and that nothing can ever go wrong if you're with your soulmate-----is a vile doctrine that I think causes disillusionment and misery.


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## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> Spoken from the mouth of a true Romantic... we're just wired this way.. can we even help it ??
> 
> * I am sure we all have our internal NEEDS in a spouse ...* I could not be with someone who wasn't "responsible " (this covers many areas, keeping a job, his word, etc) or wasted money... so we'd never accomplish our dreams..
> 
> In line with @arbitrator 's post... I don't think I would be satisfied if a man wasn't haplessly idealistic to some degree about the romance we share.. I don't need flowers or jewels, or anything fancy.. but I need "emotion" expressed now & then, some passion for us...


Yes, we do. And like you, I am pretty simple in many ways. No interest in jewelry here, either, lol.

But I absolutely need to be able to look up to a man! I have to think he is worthy of my trust, my respect and admiration. I have to want to fall at his feet in adoration! That is very deeply tied into my sexuality.

I cannot pretend or manufacture those feelings, either. If he does not inspire them, they are just not going to be there. He is certainly not entitled to them.

I am also not inspired by the idea of forced equality in marriage. To me that would be a real step down from what I have now. Not appealing at all.


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## jld

My husband says we are soulmates. He says we are meant to be together.


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## notmyrealname4

jld said:


> My husband says we are soulmates. He says we are meant to be together.


If (God forbid), one of you got hit by a bus; would you ever remarry?

If you would, then you and Dug are not soulmates; because the soulmate thing is usually predicated on there being only one person in the world that could be such a perfect match for you in every way.

Of course, in a casual sense, "soulmate" has come to mean; "we get along really, really well". That just means you are highly compatible--the soulmate stuff is meaningless or irrelevant.

See, the danger of the soulmate myth, is that if you start having difficulties, or fighting more than usual, etc. etc., there can be this tendency to say, "well, this person must not be my soulmate, ...so I guess we need to break-up/see other people/divorce".

When all that is happening is that your human, fallible relationship is having some difficulties; and you're gonna have to work through them. You are *not* going to be simpatico with someone else on every issue in life.


I'm very glad that you have such an excellent rapport with your husband. I just don't think that "soulmates" has a thing to do with it.

Apologies if that gives offense in any way.


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## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> If (God forbid), one of you got hit by a bus; would you ever remarry?
> 
> If you would, then you and Dug are not soulmates; because the soulmate thing is usually predicated on there being only one person in the world that could be such a perfect match for you in every way.
> 
> Of course, in a casual sense, "soulmate" has come to mean; "we get along really, really well". That just means you are highly compatible--the soulmate stuff is meaningless or irrelevant.
> 
> See, the danger of the soulmate myth, is that if you start having difficulties, or fighting more than usual, etc. etc., there can be this tendency to say, "well, this person must not be my soulmate, ...so I guess we need to break-up/see other people/divorce".
> 
> When all that is happening is that your human, fallible relationship is having some difficulties; and you're gonna have to work through them. You are *not* going to be simpatico with someone else on every issue in life.
> 
> 
> I'm very glad that you have such an excellent rapport with your husband. I just don't think that "soulmates" has a thing to do with it.
> 
> Apologies if that gives offense in any way.


That's okay. We won't have any thought-provoking conversations here if people are offended by every last thing. There is way too much of that over in CWI already!

Maybe Dug can come on later and explain what soulmate means to him.


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## notmyrealname4

jld said:


> Maybe Dug can come on later and explain what soulmate means to him.


Great!

But what does jld think "soulmate" means?0


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## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> Great!
> 
> But what does jld think "soulmate" means?0


Not sure. It is a term that only Dug uses here.


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## notmyrealname4

jld said:


> Not sure. It is a term that only Dug uses here.




:rofl: Thanks for your honesty.


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## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> :rofl: Thanks for your honesty.


What makes you laugh?


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## ConanHub

I am romantic but do not ascribe to the concept of soul mate.

I believe in hard work and effort combined with initial attraction and compatibility.

My approach to relationships isn't romantic at all but my results are extremely passionate and filled with 🌹 romance.

I could successfully bed and wed any number of women and have, not identical, but similar levels of success as with my 25 years with Mrs. C.

She is unique and no one can take her place but I could be successful with another unique woman as well.

At this stage though, if she passed, I honestly don't know if I would pursue another.

She has been the great love of my life and I don't know that I have it in me to start again.

I do believe in God however and He could have different ideas about me. He often does! LOL!


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## notmyrealname4

jld said:


> What makes you laugh?


That you admitted that you, personally, didn't know what a soulmate was supposed to be; even though your husband thinks that you are his.

You were genuine; you didn't try to come up with some hooey on-the-spot about what you thought a soulmate was.

It just struck me as cute is all.


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## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> That you admitted that you, personally, didn't know what a soulmate was supposed to be; even though your husband thinks that you are his.
> 
> You were genuine; you didn't try to come up with some hooey on-the-spot about what you thought a soulmate was.
> 
> It just struck me as cute is all.


Oh, okay. I thought maybe it was something bad.


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## notmyrealname4

ConanHub said:


> I could successfully bed and wed any number of women and have, not identical, but similar levels of success as with my 25 years with Mrs. C.
> 
> She is unique and no one can take her place but I could be successful with another unique woman as well.
> 
> At this stage though, if she passed, I honestly don't know if I would pursue another.
> 
> She has been the great love of my life and I don't know that I have it in me to start again.
> 
> I do believe in God however and He could have different ideas about me. He often does! LOL!




That's a big part of it. Admitting that we are replaceable; and that our spouses are too. Human love isn't that strong or ideal.

But, at the same time, you are now so strongly bonded to Mrs. C; that the thought of losing her is painful in the extreme.

From the Christian sense, marriage only lasts in this lifetime. Though I think Mormons believe differently.

I love my husband. But I don't want to be bonded to him for evermore in eternity. It won't be necessary. I sure hope to see him around; but there won't be the insecurities and vulnerabilities that we have here in this life, which make having a permanent mate so desirable.


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## Mr.Fisty

I just do not place anyone on a pedestal. What works is some idealized version but the ability to detach and analyze. As a teen, I let all the hormones do the talking. I had two sisters pursue me and I picked the hotter one even though the other was more compatible, more sane. The hotter one was a recovering cocaine addict since 15 and let people have sex with her for drugs. All I could see was her beauty and not the inner scars and the lack of common interest. I placed her on a pedestal in the beginning and let her hurt me more than I should have. She kept pushing and then pulling me like a leashed pet depending on her whims. Sure, she cared about me, but not enough to treat me well. Luckily she was he one that let me go eventually when she moved at 18 because I could of have not.

Thinking about it, I was in love with her attractiveness, that high knowing she was the one that pursued me and gave me that initial ego boost, and sex. It was a superficial relationship without any real connection. We did not talk, we did not know each other well since we both had our guards up.

With my current partner, with communication being the number one priority, she can read me sometimes and knows my flaws. Recently my mother passed away and I was detaching unknowingly and she knows me on a deep, emotional level to know I was not handling it well and call me out on my behavior. She showed up, not leaving me alone and she grieved with me. It makes me love her even more, and yet, we will not place each other on a pedestal. If I kept neglecting her, I could of lost that because with enough pain, it would be healthy to give up and in healthy state of mind, I would want her to give up on me if it is ever detrimental towards her. She supported me, and stood by me, but I had to make the choice to help myself and accept that support. Otherwise, her actions would have been fruitless.

Some level of idealism but not lose the reality of what is real. Perception is always faulty and looking at the whole picture, of past behavior is an indication of future outcomes. Seeing whether we can learn from that or not. Unfortunately, I did not learn until my early twenties. Got hooked again by a hot cheerleader that was abused by her parents, sexually assaulted, abused by her ex-bf. Attraction only gets the foot in the door and getting to actually know the person and the constant work it takes to maintain that level of connection. It is easy in the beginning due to that initial honeymoon phase.


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## ConanHub

notmyrealname4 said:


> That's a big part of it. Admitting that we are replaceable; and that our spouses are too. Human love isn't that strong or ideal.
> 
> But, at the same time, you are now so strongly bonded to Mrs. C; that the thought of losing her is painful in the extreme.
> 
> From the Christian sense, marriage only lasts in this lifetime. Though I think Mormons believe differently.
> 
> I love my husband. But I don't want to be bonded to him for evermore in eternity. It won't be necessary. I sure hope to see him around; but there won't be the insecurities and vulnerabilities that we have here in this life, which make having a permanent mate so desirable.


Ok.

I'm not trying to make an anonymous internet move on you here but I am in love with your mind!

I might have to avoid your posts for a while as I would probably develop a crush! LOL!

I sincerely appreciate your thoughts and am amazed to hear expressions similar to my own!

Nuff said!


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## notmyrealname4

@ConanHub


That's the beauty of these forums. You don't even have to know the gender of the person; you get to interact with others' minds.


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## crocus

This is a great thread!
Idealism with regards to the relationship itself poses stumbling blocks for myself. Idealism towards one partner, for me, is simply accepting others as they are without a lot of judgment.
Easy to do that when one has solid boundaries and knows what needs they should "fulfill " for themselves and which needs can only be met with the opportunity of participating in a relationship (thus they are bonus!). 
It's always a shift changing ever evolving dance.
Which is difficult for some, as change can be.
Idealism towards how a relationship should be....to me...is causing your own suffering, if you focus on it.
It's a good idea to have some basic expectations. 
And know what your boundaries are. 
Infidelity, spending habits, parenting, co habitation habits, etc are basics that could make or break and need solid boundaries.
Things can be measured. It was done or not. Yes or no. Pass or fail.
The rest...emotional opinion and out of your control.
Yes, we have expectations and idealism about these too.
But very little control. It's personal. For a good reason.
We aren't meant to.

If someone shows you they love you (in the manner they know) but you refuse to accept it or can't see it because of your idealism, it doesn't change the fact that it happened.
Deep stuff, never becomes an issue if expectations and love languages match, for a period of time.
But if we idealize or accept our partner, you get through the morphing of the other.
Or not. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ynot

SimplyAmorous said:


> I think myself & you would find some disagreement on this...
> 
> You likely admire this Ayn Rand character also.. I have watched some of her videos on You tube and cringe.. though ..I don't fully GET her message... that Speaker of the House Paul Ryan is an admirer .... I can not express the disdain I feel for that man and his politics....but that's another thread...
> 
> I am admittedly MORE SELFISH over my husband.. If I don't watch myself... I can be bossy...more take charge.. thankfully we think so much alike on issues, this has never been a contention with us... but but but...
> 
> I personally tend to LOOK UP to those are LESS SELFISH ... because it's a quality that I do admire.. even if I kinda suck at it myself sometimes..
> 
> We bought chocolate bars out the other night.. I wanted his -after I ate mine.. I'm selfish.. he let me eat it... but I shouldn't have asked.. stupid example.. he'd NEVER do that to me or one of the kids.. he's a good example of someone who seems to get Joy for doing for other people.. That to me is a GOOD person..
> 
> I like GOOD people.. I don't admire selfishness in others... I feel it is the ruination of many relationships, friendships, causes problems in the work place, and on it goes.. Every situation is different though..
> 
> There IS surely a PLACE for "doing for ourselves" for our own happiness.. of course. I've never personally been the "unconditional lover" type either.


 And once again you confuse selfishness for greed. Were you greedy, you would be bossy. But you weren't, you were selfish. You understand that in the long term keeping you H in your life outweighs whatever benefit might come from being bossy and driving him out of your life. The same with the chocolate bars. You have decided that it is in your best interest (ie selfish) to have this man in your life and act appropriately. That is not selflessness. Selflessness would be you going without the chocolate bar so that he can have it all. Selflessness is being a dishrag and doing what you are told. 
The problem is that our definition of selfish has been dumb downed by the societal exaltation of selflessness. 
It is the same issue that many take into a marriage, whereby they imagine by being selfless they are helping the marriage. When in fact they are giving themselves away and undermining their half of the relationship. It is why many marriages fail. The IDEAL of selflessness, which is fact counter to the best interests of the individual, an individual that represents half of a couple.
As for Ayn Rand, the reality is that outside of Ron Paul, few politicians even begin to grasp the concepts she presents. Instead they mouth agreement with it while doing everything in their power to undermine them. Paul Ryan, lifetime politician and leading progressive of the "conservatives" being a case in point.
This conflation of terms is something progressives of both ilk prey on in their quest for more power. It is the root of most of our societal and political issues.


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## notmyrealname4

@SimplyAmorous

I'm guessing that there are occasions when you let your husband have both of the candy bars----or an equivalent. Maybe you let him sleep late on his days off while you get up and start taking care of things domestically.

Things aren't always equal. You might go a longer stretch doing more of the taking.

As long as you are also able to give freely when you are able, and your spouse needs that sacrifice from you.


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## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> @SimplyAmorous
> 
> I'm guessing that there are occasions when you let your husband have both of the candy bars----or an equivalent. Maybe you let him sleep late on his days off while you get up and start taking care of things domestically.
> 
> Things aren't always equal. You might go a longer stretch doing more of the taking.
> 
> As long as you are also able to give freely when you are able, and your spouse needs that sacrifice from you.


She does a ton for him. That house runs as smoothly as it does because of her--and he knows and appreciates it. Win/Win.


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## john117

jld said:


> My husband says we are soulmates. He says we are meant to be together.


I said the same thing in 1982😎

I know better now.


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## Duguesclin

jld said:


> That's okay. We won't have any thought-provoking conversations here if people are offended by every last thing. There is way too much of that over in CWI already!
> 
> *Maybe Dug can come on later and explain what soulmate means to him*.


I do not have any data to back up what I am going to say. It is just my opinion.

I believe in destiny. I believe we are on the earth to make a difference. Neither my wife nor I are statistical randomness. 

I really felt at ease when I met JLD. I felt that we must have been together in past lives.

If JLD were to die before me, would I remarry or live with another woman? 

I understand talk is cheap, but I seriously doubt it. She and I have worked very hard to build what we have. I do not know how I could share the fruits of that work with anyone else.


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## brooklynAnn

Duguesclin said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's okay. We won't have any thought-provoking conversations here if people are offended by every last thing. There is way too much of that over in CWI already!
> 
> *Maybe Dug can come on later and explain what soulmate means to him*.
> 
> 
> 
> I belief in karmatic obligations and the ties we create with each other. Each of those obligations needs to be repaid. So, in spending so much time with each other our ties are so entangled that we need a few lifetimes to repay them. We always say we will be together for 10 more life times. My H says that he must have been pretty bad in the last one, because this one is about me.
> 
> Is that a soul mate? I don't know. We like our belief. It allows us to treat each other with respect and kindness. Even if some times we want to kill each other.
> 
> I do not have any data to back up what I am going to say. It is just my opinion.
> 
> I believe in destiny. I believe we are on the earth to make a difference. Neither my wife nor I are statistical randomness.
> 
> I really felt at ease when I met JLD. I felt that we must have been together in past lives.
> 
> If JLD were to die before me, would I remarry or live with another woman?
> 
> I understand talk is cheap, but I seriously doubt it. She and I have worked very hard to build what we have. I do not know how I could share the fruits of that work with anyone else.
Click to expand...


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## brooklynAnn

Sorry Dug and jdl....can't edit on my phone..


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## meson

SimplyAmorous said:


> So I start telling him.....he's always had me on a Pedestal and that I'm nothing special .. that he's been duped.. that it's only because he has "Idealized me" that he's been so wonderful through the years, always forgiving.... like it's all in his head, all a facade ....I am a "screw up" like everyone else... Ok...I've said this before.. my mouth can Over run in a heated moment.. Here I am slaughtering myself before him...probably feeling guilty for starting a fight .... Do I sound crazy yet ?
> 
> He suddenly got very quiet... then his face turned cold like...the wheels were turning.. he looks at me & asks with the most serious of faces...."Have I done this, has it all been a LIE.. was it all just in my head ?"..... he was processing these thoughts I unloaded on him.... the seriousness continued....his countenance almost numb... he made a few comments reasoning this out.. that if I am "nothing special", if I am just like every other woman, what is there... it was like it changed EVERYTHING , his perception of me was now TAINTED...he questioned himself / us...
> 
> I asked him if he still loved me...his answer was "I don't know"... he said he didn't know anything anymore... In all our years (35 so far)..I have never experienced this feeling , he was scaring me, like I opened a Pandora's box I could not shut again .... I start to feel sick to my stomach ...a rush of sadness / dread washes over me...feelings of > "Oh my God , what have I done!!... did I just destroy US... his love for me!??"... this went on for about 45 minutes.... it was SOBERING ...I cried like I couldn't stop... he didn't hold me at 1st - I never experienced THAT before either .. he always reached for me, wanted to comfort me, no matter what the argument, he was there for me...this was different...



This is exactly why I don't like the concept of a soul mate. There are too many things that can call it into question. What happened with SAs Husband can happen to anyone. Fortunately your marriage is a good one and upon reflection he came to his senses.

I went through a similar thing once as I have mentioned before. It's very tempting to say its fated for me to be with someone else etc. the bottom line is that marriage is the result of effort. You and your husband supply that effort and are rewarded with a good marriage.


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## meson

SimplyAmorous said:


> I hope this is not how I come off.. I have always prided myself on being a Realist.... my husband tells me I THINK too much...I lost my religion on a quest for the authentic.. I've always been a questioner... because I do value what is real...
> 
> When it comes to love, being loved.. sharing love....We feel it when we are, don't we... actions speak...our connection speaks this authenticity of emotion.
> 
> I understand fully there is a FOG in the beginning of relationships... that we often over look things seeing what we want to see, there is an iffy window of 18 months a couple should be very careful....
> 
> We could all sit here & probably fire off a small list of things we'd tweak about our spouses... couldn't we... Do you think I wouldn't have a list ? Sure I would !.. but still....what's on it, these things are so minor in nature...still our lives are so much brighter to have this person in it..
> 
> I really don't feel another could replace my husband, how many guys like to watch chick flicks with their wives & don't like sports?.. he's a rarity for sure... For me, so much is wrapped up in the memories a couple has too - I am someone who ENJOYS looking back .. some nostalgia, there is a sentimental longing , affection for the past we've shared also...
> 
> There are some people.. I've heard they have no use for that... it's all about "live for today.. never look back"... I would not be able to relate to this..



I think SAs Husband is correct, you do overthink stuff. Your article was thought provoking but as you know from our previous exchanges that I don't buy into the soul mate or idealism mode. To me you come off as a romantic that love an ideal. But I also see you and your husband work at things and don't 100% fall into the idealism category. 

I am also not saying there is someone who could replace your husband. I am saying that there are many you could have ended up with that you would enjoy and have a fulfilling life with. Your husband is unique but in general there is probably a lot of overlap with others that would work for you. I'm not saying you chose wrong or he is not the one for you at all. From my perspective you are perfect for each other and compliment each other.

For example, I watch chick flicks and dont watch sports. So that feature you mentioned I share though there are others that I don't share with SAs Husband. He is not as unique in that way as you may think. 

Mrs. meson is special to me but I have learned there are many traits that drew me to her that I have found in others. There are a couple of what would have happened moments with people in the past. It turns out that Mrs. meson and I share similar choices that each could have worked. I wouldn't trade it now for anything though I do know I could have been happy as well as she could have been with another choice. My experience is different than yours and it shows the possibilities that might have been. I've also seen too many threads where people with the soul mate attitude experience infatuation and boom their marriage explodes because they are no longer sure that they are with the right person.


----------



## Mr Blunt

*"Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?*
No…. in fact some idealism can be very good according to the statements below



> Similar to “reciprocal overlooking” idealization in this sense is also reciprocal, by establishing willingness to support each other to be their best selves, rather than criticize, point fingers, or keep score, and continuing to remind them they aren’t your ideal






*"Idealism" in Marriage... always bad?*
No, but can be detrimental to a marriage in a situation as described below:



> The problem with the soul mate view is that it goes hand in hand with the romanticized idea that if you marry Mr. Right or Miss Right your life will be nothing but wonderful all of the time.  Such people tend to think that the role of their spouse and the reason for their marriage is to "make" them happy and fulfilled. However, idealistic views of relationships and marriage are dangerous for many reasons







> *BY SA*
> Thoughts... do you have some of this going on in your Marriage? Have you found it unhealthy, more hurtful?? Please share....


The ones listed above are not going on in my marriage. However, when you have been betrayed then you are forced to give up some of your idealisms. Reprinted below is part of a post that I made on another section of TAM



> You are forced to give up some of the idealism that you may have had about marriage. Some of these ideals are:
> 
> That you can always trust your spouse to never stab you in the back.
> 
> That your spouse will always have your best interest at heart.
> 
> That your spouse has very strong integrity and strong beliefs that they will hold on to no matter what.


*Correct Idealism is a great goal to strive towards and those that can live up to the idealism make for a very huge bond in relationships; very positive!*


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *BY SA*
> A few weeks back...I was reading a few articles how UNHEALTHY it is to Idealize a spouse…….
> So I start telling him.....he's always had me on a Pedestal and that I'm nothing special .. that he's been duped.. that it's only because he has "Idealized me" that he's been so wonderful through the years, always forgiving.... like it's all in his head, all a facade ....I am a "screw up" like everyone else


Good Grief SA, what were the SPECIFICS of what you read that was UNHEALTHY?
Were he authors of those articles sociopaths?...SA, you have to stop taking those mind altering drugs (JOKE people!) because I know you to be a very intelligent woman along with you being a wonderful romantic

The opposite of idealized is NOT



> he's always had me on a Pedestal and that I'm nothing special .. that he's been duped.. that it's only because he has "Idealized me" that he's been so wonderful through the years, always forgiving.... like it's all in his head, all a facade ....I am a "screw up" like everyone else”


If that is what the articles were saying then the authors are warped!

One very good point in favor of idealism was mentioned in your first post and stated


> ” idealization in this sense is also reciprocal, by establishing willingness to support each other to be their best selves, rather than criticize, point fingers, or keep score, and continuing to remind them they aren’t your ideal



Idealism has a role to play in relationships but it must be balanced with discernment, some realities, and a willingness to support each other IMO

*SA, my old buddy! Congratulations on so many years of a very good marriage; your relationship with your husband is very inspirational!*


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *My husband says we are soulmates. He says we are meant to be together.*





notmyrealname4 said:


> *If (God forbid), one of you got hit by a bus; would you ever remarry?
> *
> If you would, then you and Dug are not soulmates; because the soulmate thing is usually predicated on there being only one person in the world that could be such a perfect match for you in every way.


 Here is the disconnect from my perspective ..I can read BOTH of your posts and appreciate the SPIRIT of @jld 's and Dug's ....Heck he is not even known to be romantic! ... but also not argue with the interpretation of @notmyrealname4 's and @meson 's .... 



> See, the danger of the soulmate myth, is that if you start having difficulties, or fighting more than usual, etc. etc., there can be this tendency to say, "well, this person must not be my soulmate, ...so I guess we need to break-up/see other people/divorce".
> 
> When all that is happening is that your human, fallible relationship is having some difficulties; and you're gonna have to work through them. You are *not* going to be simpatico with someone else on every issue in life.


THiS was my argument too....the link again  HERE post #13  ...that the belief there is only 1 SPECIAL person destined to us in this life... *this is WRONG*, we may FEEL THIS WAY (this is where I can appreciate the spirit of it) ... but it doesn't make the definition correct... 

As if this were the case, like @notmyrealname4 's example above...no one could ever find authentic lasting love again.. What if a young woman's husband tragically dies , a freak accident on their Honeymoon...or a young husband at War...of course these woman can go on to find another satisfying relationship, we move on, life goes on...she may find even greater happiness depending on how close they were /what she felt with her 1st love... 

I would, too, very much desire to find love again, a man I was compatible with, IF my husband was taken from me....though in my very *realistic perspective* ..I do not believe I would find one that was as Devoted to me, or that we had as much in common ticking those boxes that satisfy my soul.. it's hard enough for find this once in a lifetime ...I know many who have never found it -they don't even LIKE their spouses, always complaining, happy if they go away... Love is difficult.. I am not such a dreamer to feel otherwise.. I can be a real pessimist even... so is my husband. 

I tend to look on the down side till I have been shown otherwise....(ACTIONS, evidence, things lining up with the test of time).... our Optimist son & myself have bonked heads a # of times in the past....as I felt he was too trusting & foolish in regards to his GF, that nothing could take her away, he felt they were destined...only to see it all come to ashes...there I was with the warnings, the naysayer ... I laid them out before him.. he was NOT happy with me...I was a voice of doom...but I was right....his good buddy was after his GF... it all came to pass, she married him this past weekend..

This comes into play with me as well...again being realistic...Look I am [email protected]# ...If the man likes bars, he's out, thinks nothing of casual sex, he's out, if he's a workaholic, too private, shuns transparency, soon as I got a whiff of that.. that'd be the end...catch him in a lie, he's gone...If he wasn't a good listener/ communicator, tried to shut me out, silent treatment holder, mental illness of any sort, didn't include me on big decisions... I'd not be happy...I could pitch a long list of deal breakers for a man...the chances of finding one that would be happy to even put up with me -being this particular.. ha ha ha.. 
I'd eventually have to settle and get over myself, unless I wanted to remain alone....got my age against me too....This is realism... not a Romantic dreamer perspective by any means.. 



> Of course, in a casual sense, "soulmate" has come to mean; "we get along really, really well". That just means you are highly compatible--the soulmate stuff is meaningless or irrelevant.


 does it really matter if a couple of many yrs finds the word "endearing".. again.. appreciates the spirit of it ?? 

Seriously...Should I correct my husband, should @jld correct hers, ask them to never use the word again ? I know what kind of response I would get , he would be offended... I did ask him, after reading Meson's post the other night.. he wouldn't appreciate that.. There are 2 very endearing memories that stand out in my mind where my husband referred to me as his soulmate.. I would never want to erase those...they were full of affection & heart, I very much appreciated that he felt that way.. I would even go so far as to say BECAUSE he felt this way.. is what spurs the emotions on.. 

Again.. for me.. it's the spirit of the word.. not a black & white definition of "there is 1 destined person in this life for each one of us.. if we miss them...we'll never find true happiness"...obviously this is not true.... and just wrong... I felt my best GIRLfriend growing up, she was like a "kindred spirit".. like a sister...even in this instance.. I could have used the term Soulmate -in the realm of friendship only.. we did everything together.. great memories...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Yrs ago I used these 2 examples in a Soul mate discussion...posting it here again -as I am trying to due justice to the Spirit of the word in the best way I can.. no other article has captured it as well as the one below... 

There was a old thread here where this man was feeling he met his "soulmate" and it was only 2.5 weeks !! > http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/165458-think-i-met-my-soul-mate.html Obviously that is fogged Infatuation screaming and utterly ridiculous...I strongly wanted to set him straight ... 

In my search that day to help him see reality....I found this article, written by John Gray, the author of Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus .... 








...Soulmates: Myth or Reality? ...









Some parts of the article.. I am skipping ...the article is LONG.. but wanted to highlight some things.... 



> ...*Most People Dream about Having a Soulmate...
> But Few Turn the Dream into a Reality*
> 
> The idea of a soulmate has both conscious or unconscious elements. Even if we do not intellectually believe in soulmates, we are still affected.
> 
> We all hold some unconscious list of notions describing an "ideal" relationship partner. Often we recite parts of this list as what we want in a partner.
> 
> But reality inevitably fails to match our ideals. And we judge and react to real people according to our ideals.
> 
> As a result, many relationships that have potential are blocked, if not lost. And dissatisfaction, unhappiness and upsets are unconsciously generated.
> 
> Is the very notion of "soulmate" (conscious or unconscious) just a self-limiting fantasy — an idealization which only keeps us from ever feeling truly satisfied with a real-life human partner?
> 
> What I will tell you about soulmates is a paradox that goes beyond fantasies, myths, empty hopes or hype. It may get you to realize something vital about relationships, no matter what you believe about soulmates.
> 
> It's easy to feel like you are soulmates in the midst of a passionate and seemingly endless honeymoon.
> 
> When you feel like soulmates at the end of a decade, something else is involved. It is not a fantasy, but a realization based on a real-world track record, already well tested by time.
> 
> I figure this — that you don't just meet a "soulmate" and live happily ever after, like the myth that we all would prefer to believe says. Instead, I have observed that real world soulmates become that — by growing together in certain ways and working through challenges successfully — as contrasted with how many other couples get stuck in less fulfilling, impoverished relationships.
> 
> Putting this together, the following formula occurred to me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Love at first sight = Potential Soulmates
> 
> Love that overcomes challenges = Real-World Soulmates*
> 
> 
> 
> I define real-world soulmates as two partners who engage in overcoming challenges that test their relationship.
> 
> This is not something you can forecast in advance, when you initially fall in love. So, in a real sense, whether you feel like "soulmates" or not at the start of a relationship does not tell you how you will end up a decade later.
> 
> Real-world soulmates are tempered by time, like metal by fire. Time reveals that they persistently chose to learn and grow when confronted by challenges.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... *Meeting Your Soulmate vs. Becoming Soulmates*
> 
> With today's high rate of relationship dissatisfaction — and divorce — it's time for major change. Regardless of intellectual beliefs, most of us unconsciously hold onto a fantasy-based soulmate myth.
> 
> The danger with this soulmate ideal — whether we subscribe consciously, or unconsciosly — is that in times of challenge, we usually find our real-world partner comes up short of our internal idealized, hoped-for mate. And then we, ourselves, start to think and act in ways that hurt our real-world relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...*The Honeymoon - Falling in Love is like a Spiritual Experience*
> 
> The feeling of "being soulmates" is all about the incredible openness and receptivity, the expansion so far beyond our norm and comfort zone, the heightened clear access to energy and passion.
> 
> This is our internal state. We assume it comes from outside of us — from the other person we are with. In a word, we call them our "soulmate". But what we are really talking about is our own internal state of expansion
> 
> Some say the honeymoon is like a spiritual experience. But reality says the honeymoon does not last forever. So it's important to refine our thinking about soulmates, true love, and what is essential for a lasting relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... *Love is Not Enough*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... *Finding a "Soulmate" is Not Enough*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... *Deepening Love Beyond the Honeymoon - Lasting Soulmates are Not Passive*
> 
> There is that next phase to love, the one beyond the honeymoon. If we want a great relationship to deepen and last, we need to realize that "happily ever after" includes feelings other than happiness.
> 
> There will be challenges.
> 
> We are the ones who must realize it is our own openness that is the key to keeping a relationship great and growing — and then learn to re-open ourselves — even when there are challenges. Especially when there are challenges!
> 
> The myth of "soulmates" is about a relationship that is blue sky forever. Always sunny, and that sunshine pours down on us, brightens us up, lifts us.
> 
> In a real-world relationship, challenges come. The sky occasionally clouds. We are asked to stay present with what is — not run and hide, waiting for the rainy day to pass. We are challenged to put aside limiting beliefs and embrace the rain, realizing that even rain has a positive purpose.
> 
> Relationship is our greatest teacher. It tells us what we need to learn next in life for our personal growth. In love we are called on to do work — to become more skillful in relating, move beyond our past wounds and limits, and grow as human beings. This personal growth will include learning new tools and strategies in how we communicate, behave, and process emotions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... *Soulmates Engage in Personal Growth -Love Brings Up Our Lesson Plan*
> 
> Couples who are becoming soulmates are willing to learn how to open themselves, even when the going gets rough. They commit to learn to bring out their best, instead of passively giving way to their habitual reactions. They refuse to simply close down into fear, withdrawal, self-defensiveness, resentment, blame, criticism, or the many other common ways we destroy our own relationships.
> 
> As a Japanese proverb suggests: "The Obstacle *is* the Path."
> 
> You are called on to instigate positive transformation. Each partner needs to come forward in times of challenge and expand to the occasion, rather than closing down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... *Did We Learn to Do the Work of Relationship?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... *How Do You Know if You Are True "Soulmates"?* (the closing)
> 
> You cannot know it by the honeymoon phase alone. To know you are real-world soulmates, you need to see how you both show up to work with real-world upsets, sensitivities, differences and challenges.
> 
> Some couples start with all the magic feelings about being soulmates — and then it fizzles. Continuing to want a passive solution to love, they conclude their partner was not the "right" person after all. They then look for the next honeymoon high, hitch the next passive ride — until it crashes.
> 
> **** Other couples do not even think the word soulmate, nor do they believe in magic. But they commit to personal growth and face each lesson that love brings up. After awhile, doing the work of relationship over the years, they can see the solid trust and intimacy they have built, and there is little doubt in their hearts — they are soulmates, in the sense that they are now experiencing a solidity in their love which has never occurred previously in their lives.
> 
> It is in the willingness to open, and re-open again — as often as needed — and embrace the obstacle directly in front of you — that you finally get to a more continual and expanded state, a reliable fullness of love, and the deep core sense of being soulmates.
> 
> You know you are with a "soulmate" if you are both doing your soulwork together. Soulwork is that courageous self-opening, expanding and growing as a chosen response to challenges that close down most people.
> 
> The requirement is being willing to take a challenge to heart and respond to it by learning new tools, strategies or understandings to overcome it.
> 
> Doing that enables you to succeed in building a partnership so unparalleled that the best way you have to describe that in words is that you are "soulmates".
Click to expand...


----------



## jld

It would never have occurred to me that anyone would be offended by the term "soulmate." To me it is a great honor that my husband holds me in such esteem. I certainly do not feel worthy.


----------



## Married but Happy

From SA's post:


> When you feel like soulmates at the end of a decade, something else is involved. It is not a fantasy, but a realization based on a real-world track record, already well tested by time.


Interesting article, and I think it has some great insight. Let me say that what some call soulmate, we call deep compatibility, and we still feel this way after 17 years.

*Love at first sight = Potential Soulmates* - we experienced this deep attraction (I'd say it was too soon to realistically call it love) on the second or third date. But, at that stage it only indicates that you see strong _potential_ - it does _not_ make it real. Only time can do that.

*Love that overcomes challenges = Real-World Soulmates* - again, this is a reflection of deep compatibility tested by time and troubles overcome together.

Mrs. MbH found an article yesterday about long term happy and successful relationships. There was one word that cropped up repeatedly for those couples when they described their relationship: *EASY*. They had a natural compatibility that facilitated communication, mutual respect, and an innate belief that they were there for each other whatever the need, and would actually do what was needed. Sure, they encountered problems, but their deep compatibility made it easier to resolve them, whether they were external or internal to the relationship.

So, when dating or deciding on marriage, ask yourself: is this relationship _easy_ to sustain? If not, it may not be a good choice.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

notmyrealname4 said:


> Everyone here is selfish. And that's a good thing. Who else can see to your needs better than you?
> 
> I'm glad that there were people "selfish" enough to pursue their dreams of being musicians, or actors, doctors or civil engineers. They were "selfish" enough to follow their star; and we all profit from their "selfishness".
> 
> Selfishness is not the same as cruelty, ruthlessness or arrogance. * It means living for yourself first; then others follow.* A very loving parent might stand in front of a train for their kid, but that's about it. Most of us want to make sure that number one is okay.


 and this right here is why it's imperative to be matched with someone compatible with the things that deeply satisfy us... too much of this attitude in marriage will destroy it.. I'm in line with this article..

7 Signs of Selfishness in Marriage  -the ending sums it up very well.. "Selfishness is all about getting. Selflessness is all about giving. Are you giving to and serving your spouse?"


----------



## SimplyAmorous

notmyrealname4 said:


> @SimplyAmorous
> 
> I'm guessing that there are occasions when you let your husband have both of the candy bars----or an equivalent. Maybe you let him sleep late on his days off while you get up and start taking care of things domestically.
> 
> Things aren't always equal. You might go a longer stretch doing more of the taking.
> 
> As long as you are also able to give freely when you are able, and your spouse needs that sacrifice from you.


He'd not care about another chocolate bar really (doesn't have the sweet tooth I do)...and yeah...I'd be like an angry bear if the kids were making too much noise & dad needed some extra sleep...of course I take care of him too, so he gets what he needs.. 

There are 2 things I find just too tempting to have around.. when I want it.. I REALLY WANT it... some good chocolate (I raid my kids Halloween stashes) and







... He knows this.... he can think of worse things to deal with...

I've handed him a large stack of Hershey's for upcoming Bonfires many times, and boxes of Ho Ho's I bought on sale.. telling him to take these to work, put them in his locker so I wouldn't eat them all.


----------



## ConanHub

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am going to share an experience...very fitting for this thread...
> 
> Before I go here..1st let me say... We are a couple who have always Felt strongly that we share something very special and beautiful, feeling blessed to have met each other.. even to the point of Fate.. for instance.. I prayed specifically for a man LIKE HIM.. it's like God sent him to me...he ticked nearly every box...... For him, he's always said it was "Love at 1st sight" , sex was not even on his mind.. he just wanted to "get to know me".... I told him that's not normal.. but I also hold these things very dear... so we're a couple who's always felt this "idealism" , how it's helpful, holds the romance...
> 
> Then ONE NIGHT.... (learn from me.. better to not go certain places with our mouths...there was utterly no point to this at all)...but I guess it's good for this thread !
> 
> A few weeks back...I was reading a few articles how UNHEALTHY it is to Idealize a spouse (I want to hear both sides -even if I may feel differently, it challenges my thinking)...yet it can make one question too... Something set me off...I got upset wanting him to come on to me (something stupid)..I was just in an ornery mood... It was THAT time of month... (no excuse I know) ... this was a lousy time to unload what I've been reading...
> 
> So I start telling him.....he's always had me on a Pedestal and that I'm nothing special .. that he's been duped.. that it's only because he has "Idealized me" that he's been so wonderful through the years, always forgiving.... like it's all in his head, all a facade ....I am a "screw up" like everyone else... Ok...I've said this before.. my mouth can Over run in a heated moment.. Here I am slaughtering myself before him...probably feeling guilty for starting a fight .... Do I sound crazy yet ?
> 
> He suddenly got very quiet... then his face turned cold like...the wheels were turning.. he looks at me & asks with the most serious of faces...."Have I done this, has it all been a LIE.. was it all just in my head ?"..... he was processing these thoughts I unloaded on him.... the seriousness continued....his countenance almost numb... he made a few comments reasoning this out.. that if I am "nothing special", if I am just like every other woman, what is there... it was like it changed EVERYTHING , his perception of me was now TAINTED...he questioned himself / us...
> 
> I asked him if he still loved me...his answer was "I don't know"... he said he didn't know anything anymore... In all our years (35 so far)..I have never experienced this feeling , he was scaring me, like I opened a Pandora's box I could not shut again .... I start to feel sick to my stomach ...a rush of sadness / dread washes over me...feelings of > "Oh my God , what have I done!!... did I just destroy US... his love for me!??"... this went on for about 45 minutes.... it was SOBERING ...I cried like I couldn't stop... he didn't hold me at 1st - I never experienced THAT before either .. he always reached for me, wanted to comfort me, no matter what the argument, he was there for me...this was different...
> 
> What could I do now.. but throw myself on him, for being so foolish as to go here, say these things to hurt each other...also to present the other side... what it's always BEEN... reminding him how Special he is to me, that no man could take his place, I gave him a cup on Valentines day "Mr Right"... he's always been my "Mr Right"....sure he pisses me off at times, but still...both of us have viewed it all as such Minor offenses, small bumps in the road of a long joyous journey together... we've bared each other easily.. due to looking upon those positives, laughing at our Quirks , making fun of our flaws along the way...
> 
> I reasoned how "love is Blind" many times....he's put up with me happily all these years.. it has to be!... it's a testament to us even.....how this is NOT damaging, happiness resides there .. though obviously ripping away his perception of what we've had, causing him to question...rending it to "nothing special"... it devastated him... it's like the lights went out, a dark void...he said " a feeling of emptiness"...
> 
> He eventually reached for me, told me he loved me, we both agreed we'll happily remain "blind"...this has held our happiness all through the years.. just a matter of minutes and we washed it all away... on to make up sex ! and never looked back... but yeah.. this really opened my eyes...


Thank you for sharing this.

He should have spanked your bratty ass, thrown you over his shoulder and ravaged you until you couldn't walk right! LOL!

Glad you worked it out! You are a brat now and then, aren't you!?:wink2:


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Duguesclin said:


> I do not have any data to back up what I am going to say. It is just my opinion.
> 
> I believe in destiny. I believe we are on the earth to make a difference. Neither my wife nor I are statistical randomness.
> 
> I really felt at ease when I met JLD. I felt that we must have been together in past lives.
> 
> If JLD were to die before me, would I remarry or live with another woman?
> 
> I understand talk is cheap, but I seriously doubt it. She and I have worked very hard to build what we have. I do not know how I could share the fruits of that work with anyone else.


Love this post..again.. it's the spirit of the emotion in it.. . isn't this ultimately what we all want to find in life and have another *feel* for us ?? Who said you weren't Romantic... this is very touching. 

What you say here, I've heard a handful of others speak...My dad & Step mother are one of those couples, they just complement each other, always together / wanted the same things ... Never forget a moment shared .....we were in the waiting room of a hospital talking about many things.....she looked me in the eyes with such emotion telling me my Father is the love of her life...if something even happened to him, she could never love another man like that..that would be it for her, if something happened to him.. 

We know a man my Husband graduated with, very close marriage- 1st loves since their teens, a # of kids, one of those family guys... his wife died of cancer less than a year ago...Devastating, you never plan for such a thing.. he still writes to her every week, an update on Fb...what is happening in their lives, telling her to feel "free to visit him in his dreams".... it's almost painful to read these...he can't let go... we heard he is going through an awful depression.. I would guess he was one who'd surely feel like this.. given how close they were... Maybe I am all wrong.. but it just seems it would help if he'd be open to meeting someone new....creating some new memories, something to look forward to, and less looking back. Just so heartbreaking.

Probably hard to predict just how any of us would handle that situation and what could help us get through.


----------



## ConanHub

ConanHub said:


> Thank you for sharing this.
> 
> He should have spanked your bratty ass, thrown you over his shoulder and ravaged you until you couldn't walk right! LOL!
> 
> Glad you worked it out! You are a brat now and then, aren't you!?:wink2:


This was mostly tongue in cheek. No offense meant and I hope none received.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

ConanHub said:


> Thank you for sharing this.
> 
> He should have spanked your bratty ass, thrown you over his shoulder and ravaged you until you couldn't walk right! LOL!
> 
> Glad you worked it out! *You are a brat now and then, aren't you!?*:wink2:


Yeah not trying to sugar coat it... and here what you said he should have done...laughing with you, cause yeah.. that would have been Great! .... That's just not who he is ....we've talked about him DOING THIS when I get in a mood, I've done more than DARE HIM, I've told him to do it...to SPANK MY ASS !.. just doesn't happen...he can't do it ! .. THIS is one of the things that I would surely TWEAK , raise the bar...

But still.. this is small, even if I get in a mood and make it BIG on occasion (maybe 3-4 fights a year).... I have to remind myself.. "The man loves SEX, shut up woman, he's just not an aggressor"...I'm not going to change him. 

Once I set my "spice jar" on fire in front of him... our fights are passionate anyway! We do laugh about that one...OBVIOUSLY I've had some difficulty accepting the fact he can't do certain things...there is my selfishness at play .. I want what I want ! ... Even he agreed I had a right to be pissed ...he was humble about it....as he never once took the initiative to do one of those..the Jar was sitting there for a freaking year at that point! I lambasted his ass that day...

Bottom line: he puts up with me.. I put up with him..but still we'd add "Happily"...it goes both ways.. we're not living in fairy land...making it sound like we never have a bad day or a fight... 

On this issue.. also I have reasoned ....if all of THESE THINGS came naturally to him (as it does for many men it seems)....he'd likely be FAR less sentimentally wired (romantic), wouldn't be watching chick flicks with me...basically I'd be harping on something else I felt was lacking... maybe even more so.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

ConanHub said:


> This was mostly tongue in cheek. No offense meant and I hope none received.


No offense at all.. I loved your post !


----------



## ConanHub

ConanHub said:


> Thank you for sharing this.
> 
> He should have spanked your bratty ass, thrown you over his shoulder and ravaged you until you couldn't walk right! LOL!
> 
> Glad you worked it out! You are a brat now and then, aren't you!?:wink2:





SimplyAmorous said:


> No offense at all.. I loved your post !


You know I think you two are an awesome couple and I love your story!

People can adapt and change a little at least.

Mrs. C and I both have.

She learned to love UFC and I watch Jane Austen movies with her and we both love it.

Have your wonderful man talk to me if he wants to.

I have coaxed more than one wonderful and passive man into a little more "alpha" without taking anything away from the beautiful man he always was.

You know my story. I was by most standards, a sensational alpha but I learned some very wonderful beta traits.

The road goes both ways. Love and peace to your family!

Your friend,
Conan.


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## ConanHub

P.S. I have, in occasion, painted my wife's toenails (gasp), don't tell anyone! LOL!!!


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## jld

ConanHub said:


> P.S. I have, in occasion, painted my wife's toenails (gasp), don't tell anyone! LOL!!!


All right, that's it, you've crossed the line. Hand over your man card, please.


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## SimplyAmorous

Married but Happy said:


> From SA's post:
> 
> Interesting article, and I think it has some great insight. Let me say that what some call soulmate, we call deep compatibility, and we still feel this way after 17 years.
> 
> *Love at first sight = Potential Soulmates* - we experienced this deep attraction (I'd say it was too soon to realistically call it love) on the second or third date. But, at that stage it only indicates that you see strong _potential_ - it does _not_ make it real. Only time can do that.
> 
> *Love that overcomes challenges = Real-World Soulmates* - again, this is a reflection of deep compatibility tested by time and troubles overcome together.
> 
> Mrs. MbH found an article yesterday about long term happy and successful relationships. There was one word that cropped up repeatedly for those couples when they described their relationship: *EASY*. They had a natural compatibility that facilitated communication, mutual respect, and an innate belief that they were there for each other whatever the need, and would actually do what was needed. Sure, they encountered problems, but their deep compatibility made it easier to resolve them, whether they were external or internal to the relationship.
> 
> So, when dating or deciding on marriage, ask yourself: is this relationship _easy_ to sustain? If not, it may not be a good choice.


 Glad you enjoyed the article and felt it insightful.. ..It was one that still allowed for the term to be used, while explaining it far deeper than most.. basically with strings attached...like the passage of TIME , many shared experiences, throw in a couple valleys too...

Natural compatibility will always make for a smoother ride..that and some chemistry going on! This makes it Easier.. and helps keep the spark lit.. 

I just found this article, touching on those 2 areas... and how they differ...  COMPATIBILITY AND CHEMISTRY IN RELATIONSHIPS  



> *Compatibility is a natural alignment of lifestyle choices and values between two people. *A priest and a stripper have a major incompatibility and I doubt many end up dating each other. That’s compatibility. Put simply, if I value women who are intelligent and educated and I meet a high school dropout who values guys who have big muscles and like to hunt deer, then we have a fundamental incompatibility that will probably never be overcome and we will never date one another.
> 
> *Compatibility usually corresponds to the long-term potential between two people.* *High compatibility between people comes from similarities in their lifestyles and values*. Educated and liberal people usually date other educated and liberal people. Hedonists usually date other hedonists. Insane religious nuts usually date other insane religious nuts. For no other reason than people of opposite moral values, quite literally, repel each other. And sometimes violently.
> 
> Specific examples of what creates *strong chemistry* are harder to peg. It may be the way someone laughs at your jokes, the questions they ask you about your day, the way you hold each other in bed, or how they help you decorate your new apartment. Chemistry is made up of subtle behaviors and dispositions that positively correspond with the other person. It’s a closed karmic loop. Chemistry is felt immediately and by both parties equally. The most important rule about chemistry is that whatever you’re feeling, he or she is most likely feeling it too. You almost become empaths for one another.
> 
> The artist Alex Grey once said, “True love is when two people have pathologies that complement one another.” He was only half joking. High levels of chemistry usually come from opposite yet complementary qualities in people. A girl who is high-strung, energetic and slightly neurotic will have a high degree of chemistry with a guy who is relaxed, mellow and open. Introverts usually have natural chemistry with extroverts. People who are orderly and intense planners often work best with people who are spontaneous and unorganized."
> 
> Compatibility and chemistry don’t necessarily always occur together. A relationship with high compatibility but little chemistry is likely to be a boring yet convenient series of meetings and conversations, dry and dull until both parties simply stop caring and drift apart, or they consummate their mutual convenience by getting married and promise themselves a lifetime of simple and asexual companionship. Sadly, this arrangement isn’t uncommon.
> 
> Chemistry without compatibility on the other hand, usually leads to disaster. Sometimes it can be as simple as not living in the same part of the world. But usually it’s far more complicated than that. It’s when it feels so right, but you know it’s so wrong...


We've always been on the same page in values, lifestyle, both wanted to live in the country, have kids, same vision all the way, both our fathers were blue collar Truck drivers....our friends mixed well... Probably what works for our Chemistry is - and mentioned above : I am more of the feisty hot head (isn't that obvious)... where he is the laid back easy going type... he seems to get a charge out of that.. likes making fun of me ! and I love that..


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## ConanHub

SimplyAmorous said:


> Glad you enjoyed the article and felt it insightful.. ..It was one that still allowed for the term to be used, while explaining it far deeper than most.. basically with strings attached...like the passage of TIME , many shared experiences, throw in a couple valleys too...
> 
> Natural compatibility will always make for a smoother ride..that and some chemistry going on! This makes it Easier.. and helps keep the spark lit..
> 
> I just found this article, touching on those 2 areas... and how they differ...  COMPATIBILITY AND CHEMISTRY IN RELATIONSHIPS
> 
> 
> 
> We've always been on the same page in values, lifestyle, both wanted to live in the country, have kids, same vision all the way, both our fathers were blue collar Truck drivers....our friends mixed well... Probably what works for our Chemistry is - and mentioned above : I am more of the feisty hot head (isn't that obvious)... where he is the laid back easy going type... he seems to get a charge out of that.. likes making fun of me ! and I love that..


That is great observation. Mrs. C and I have chemistry. We have had it since the instant we met. We are absolutely opposites.

We learned compatibility to make "us" work because our love and passion were too great to deny.


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## SimplyAmorous

Mr.Fisty said:


> I just do not place anyone on a pedestal. What works is some idealized version but the ability to detach and analyze. *As a teen, I let all the hormones do the talking. * *I had two sisters pursue me and I picked the hotter one even though the other was more compatible, more sane. * The hotter one was a recovering cocaine addict since 15 and let people have sex with her for drugs. All I could see was her beauty and not the inner scars and the lack of common interest. * I placed her on a pedestal in the beginning and let her hurt me more than I should have. She kept pushing and then pulling me like a leashed pet depending on her whims. Sure, she cared about me, but not enough to treat me well. * Luckily she was he one that let me go eventually when she moved at 18 because I could of have not.
> 
> Thinking about it, *I was in love with her attractiveness, that high knowing she was the one that pursued me and gave me that initial ego boost, and sex. It was a superficial relationship without any real connection. We did not talk, we did not know each other well since we both had our guards up.*
> 
> With my current partner, with communication being the number one priority, she can read me sometimes and knows my flaws. Recently my mother passed away and I was detaching unknowingly and she knows me on a deep, emotional level to know I was not handling it well and call me out on my behavior. She showed up, not leaving me alone and she grieved with me. It makes me love her even more, and yet, we will not place each other on a pedestal. If I kept neglecting her, I could of lost that because with enough pain, it would be healthy to give up and in healthy state of mind, I would want her to give up on me if it is ever detrimental towards her. She supported me, and stood by me, but I had to make the choice to help myself and accept that support. Otherwise, her actions would have been fruitless.
> 
> Some level of idealism but not lose the reality of what is real. *Perception is always faulty and looking at the whole picture, of past behavior is an indication of future outcomes. * Seeing whether we can learn from that or not. Unfortunately, I did not learn until my early twenties. Got hooked again by a hot cheerleader that was abused by her parents, sexually assaulted, abused by her ex-bf. *Attraction only gets the foot in the door and getting to actually know the person and the constant work it takes to maintain that level of connection. It is easy in the beginning due to that initial honeymoon phase.*


Thank you for sharing your experiences .....I think a lot of men have this ailment when they are young due to their insatiable sex drives.. the focus becomes pleasing the guy downstairs, an ongoing rush of those feel good hormones with a hot body... this played enough of a role in your "coming of age" situation to blind you to the big picture. I'd say the same happened with my Father, my Mom wasn't into drugs, no addictions .. but he was blinded by sex - and they had very little compatibility...it all came out after they married. 

You said you didn't really talk, both had your guards up... how does one place a woman on a pedestal without knowing them emotionally...add to the fact she treated you badly and was really messed up! How is there any admirable affection towards this? This is baffling to me....just too many negatives....I guess that's why Experts say a teen brain (I assume you were very young) isn't fully developed till we reach our mid 20's... 

Just another example... how Physical attraction & sex can blind people into something that has little substance.. Sounds you had options, her sister wanted you too.. 

As much as I may come off as someone who could get caught out in idealism to blind me.. looking back.. I was terribly level headed ... I never wavered in what would be ultimately be GOOD for me, healthy for my life... .. I had enough examples around me, from choice my mother made after the divorce with user men (all about sex, nothing more, no emotion, no care), watching a couple close friends fall pregnant to losers, never there for the baby, gone in the dust..... I met my husband very young.. but at the same time...I was cautiously open to other boys as my dear Grandma, my greatest mentor, always told me to Not marry the 1st one, but "play the field" a little (that didn't mean sex in her day)...

My husband was a little worried in our early yrs as he knew there were others who wanted me, I would still talk to them (a couple were always at my best friends house -couldn't get away from that) ... then there was one I met at a school function, he wanted to call me.. he was drop dead gorgeous, HE was very tempting!... I did allow him to call me a few times.. this is where I had to make a choice.. 

I remember reasoning ... "I can't let go of what we have, just cause this guy is HOT"...and many times I said this ..."no one would treat me as wonderful as my boyfriend does"....I was rational.. I believe I made the best choice for my future... I didn't know all that much about this other guy... but I'd bet he tried calling lots of girls.. He was just too good looking... I chose my best friend over him... we always had the emotional, we talked & shared EVERYTHING..... some would say this goes against passion or something.. but I feel it feeds into compatibility , where there is an assurance of it -when a couple can share every part of themselves like that.. even that I met this guy & talked to him on the phone.... I never lied to my husband about anything.. or kept things from him.. this also built our trust early on. 

I ended up giving the hot guy my girlfriends # ...then the 4 of us went to the Prom together !.. Funny how that worked out.. . looking back.. I weighed everything, all the pros & cons.. this comes back to all that "thinking" I do... I also prayed along the way....it's surely kept me from some heartache or falling into things I may have regretted after the fact..


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## SimplyAmorous

Mr Blunt said:


> The ones listed above are not going on in my marriage. However, when you have been betrayed then you are forced to give up some of your idealisms. Reprinted below is part of a post that I made on another section of TAM
> 
> You are forced to give up some of the idealism that you may have had about marriage. Some of these ideals are:
> 
> That you can always trust your spouse to never stab you in the back.
> 
> That your spouse will always have your best interest at heart.
> 
> That your spouse has very strong integrity and strong beliefs that they will hold on to no matter what.


What you shared here.. I noticed many similar feelings in those (2) Romantic threads I did.. how people have LOST this... some felt it was a necessary maturing ... one poster said "I’d consider myself a hopeless romantic.... then I was betrayed. “It can’t be separated from who I am”... um.. Bull. It can be ripped out of you bit by bloody bit. "... 

Another poster warned me to brace myself if/ when our hopeless romantic son gets dumped & has to pick it up his heart off the floor.... Boy he had that right!!.. then added this response "The only thing I did wish was that I had the opportunity to experience heartbreak earlier in dating, getting your heart broken for the first time at 22/23, I think it has longer lasting effects. How you deal with people and deal with trust changes completely."

Not that I thought all that much about these things from another perspective all through the years.. coming here, reading so many experiences has allowed me to see just how MUCH our experiences play a role in how we love, how difficult it can be to trust for some... 



> *Correct Idealism is a great goal to strive towards and those that can live up to the idealism make for a very huge bond in relationships; very positive!*


Glad you stopped in on my thread @Mr Blunt !  I think it's all in how people interpret *words* too.. the word "Idealism" is associated with being unrealistic.. "dreamer" probably comes to mind too.. 










Then there are words like "Selfishness"...










It's hard for me to grasp @Ynot 's definition so easily ... even if there IS truth to it (not denying that we need to care about ourselves!).... I just asked my husband what comes to mind when he hears the word "Selfish".. his answered : "when people don't think of another person's feelings"... it's difficult to un-program that, and start using that word as a positive.. that's probably how many see the word "Idealism" too, they only see the unrealistic "dreamy" aspects of it.. 

Was reading an article this morning that started out .... "In my practice, I often treat couples who have highly idealistic expectations about marriage. Does that sound contradictory? After all, idealism is romantic, and you need romance for a great marriage. If marriage isn’t just a partnership, but a meeting of souls, then something must be deeply wrong when you have petty disagreements. Soul mates never argue about where the thermostat should be set."...I'm thinking.. seriously?.. I would laugh at such a notion.... even though I like the word "soul mates"...I have ALWAYS and forever felt the best of relationships, friendships, family members ... fight now & [email protected]# but they get over it - Heck yeah! ...so I never ascribed to that definition personally.. this perfection thing.. it's hard for me to imagine anyone could think like that.. 

I'm all for seeing the imperfections clearly and finding a way to accept them, this comes with the whole package.. we learn to love some of the quirks, would even miss these things if the person was taken from us.. I tried to explain that in this old thread.. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...t-but-beauty-can-found-our-imperfections.html

Whenever I hear of a couple who never argues / no fighting ....I automatically think to myself ..."they must not be communicating either"... it just doesn't make sense to me...everyone disagrees sometimes.. I'm not one of those who feels it's always helpful to STUFF IT DOWN, sometimes we need to pick our battles -TRUE.. but if it is something that has the potential to cause us Resentment down the road.. NO!....it needs to be communicated and worked through for both to find some mutual peace with it...work it out..


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## Ynot

SimplyAmorous said:


> It's hard for me to grasp @Ynot 's definition so easily ... even if there IS truth to it (not denying that we need to care about ourselves!).... I just asked my husband what comes to mind when he hears the word "Selfish".. his answered : "when people don't think of another person's feelings"... it's difficult to un-program that, and start using that word as a positive.. that's probably how many see the word "Idealism" too, they only see the unrealistic "dreamy" aspects of it..


That is because you and your husband have accepted the "societal" definition of selfishness. If you don't think about your partners feelings you are being GREEDY not selfish. If that person is important to you and you consider their feelings you are being selfish (which is good) But if you don't consider your own feelings as well you are being selfless (which is bad).


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## jb02157

SimplyAmorous said:


> He suddenly got very quiet... then his face turned cold like...the wheels were turning.. he looks at me & asks with the most serious of faces...."Have I done this, has it all been a LIE.. was it all just in my head ?"..... he was processing these thoughts I unloaded on him.... the seriousness continued....his countenance almost numb... he made a few comments reasoning this out.. that if I am "nothing special", if I am just like every other woman, what is there... it was like it changed EVERYTHING , his perception of me was now TAINTED...he questioned himself / us...
> 
> I asked him if he still loved me...his answer was "I don't know"... he said he didn't know anything anymore... In all our years (35 so far)..I have never experienced this feeling , he was scaring me, like I opened a Pandora's box I could not shut again .... I start to feel sick to my stomach ...a rush of sadness / dread washes over me...


I had one of these moments to but the result was way different. I used to tell my wife I loved her all the time but she started saying stuff like "I love you sometimes".. To me that might as well been the day we stopped being married and we became just two individuals stuck living together. Since that day I have never told my wife I loved her and never will again, simply because I don't. I can't love someone temporarily or "sometimes". Maybe we were nothing more than a lie? It's saying stupid stuff like that that absolutely kills love between two people. I never wanted to know what she meant by that, as long as it came out of her mouth, that was enough for me.


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## jld

jb02157 said:


> I had one of these moments to but the result was way different. I used to tell my wife I loved her all the time but she started saying stuff like "I love you sometimes".. To me that might as well been the day we stopped being married and we became just two individuals stuck living together. Since that day I have never told my wife I loved her and never will again, simply because I don't. I can't love someone temporarily or "sometimes". Maybe we were nothing more than a lie? It's saying stupid stuff like that that absolutely kills love between two people. I never wanted to know what she meant by that, as long as it came out of her mouth, that was enough for me.


If I said something like that to my husband, he would laugh, kiss my forehead, and say, "I love you all the time."

Not taking things personally, and responding with confidence and humor, can really lower stress.


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## heartsbeating

I don't believe in the concept of soul mates.

There's the chemistry, connection, shared outlooks and compatibility yet there's also the dynamic between us. Dynamics of a relationship is similar to dynamics of music. It provides a language that's felt and interpreted. It's what inspires intensity, playfulness, meaning, and becomes the flow. The flow my husband and I share is something I couldn't imagine experiencing with another. Although I don't doubt that rationally, it is possible for both of us.

Having one another on a pedestal is not healthy for our dynamic. Trusting one another to express our truth, is. That's where learning and growing as people, as a couple, occurs. At times we believe in each others capabilities and see each other in a light that we wouldn't see in ourselves. Viewing one another this way has inspired and encouraged both of us to try different things. Knowing the person you love, admire, trust, respect and desire believes in you and has your back, is to be cherished. 

I affectionately call him Batman... acknowledging that Batman is a hero in my eyes while still being flawed. Of course it's because of his flaws that he became Batman in the first place.


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## jb02157

jld said:


> If I said something like that to my husband, he would laugh, kiss my forehead, and say, "I love you all the time."
> 
> Not taking things personally, and responding with confidence and humor, can really lower stress.


Maybe you're right but she did it all the time for awhile and I though it was meant to send a message. I can't just laugh off something like that. If I were more confident in our marriage, maybe I could. The truth is, our marriage was always not stable and thing like this could signal more serious things were coming as indeed they were. When she started doing this was when she changed her attitude and became very negative. 

I do like what you said, it gives me a fresh perspective. I wish I could just laugh things like this off. I guess I'm just so used to her trying to make me feel horrible I over-react sometimes.


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## CantBelieveThis

I have a perhaps different view on this idealism, 100 years from now, about your marriage, whom will remember? Whom will care? This is one of the realizations I have come to about marriage and a lot of other things. I firmly believe that we are here in this world to leave something behind that makes it a better place for the next, and marriage doesn't really play much into that. 
Simply getting married, having children and living together till death does its part just isn't enough in my opinion. We are here to do more than that, humans are too complex to just simply drive the propagation of its species via reproduction, and evolution is just too dang slow to wait for....so that leaves us to make the world a better place than we came into it.....

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


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## SimplyAmorous

CantBelieveThis said:


> I have a perhaps different view on this idealism, 100 years from now, about your marriage, whom will remember? Whom will care? This is one of the realizations I have come to about marriage and a lot of other things. I firmly believe that we are here in this world to leave something behind that makes it a better place for the next, and marriage doesn't really play much into that.
> Simply getting married, having children and living together till death does its part just isn't enough in my opinion. We are here to do more than that, humans are too complex to just simply drive the propagation of its species via reproduction, and evolution is just too dang slow to wait for....so that leaves us to make the world a better place than we came into it.....


 I feel this way too....what else is there... hopefully we weren't born just to be a selfish prick who makes everyone else's life miserable.... 

I'd like to believe we make some sort of difference in other's lives... the Job I have now.. I take care of people.. it's nothing glamorous but there is a need.. Then there are those who make a profound difference...take Jonas Salk for example...the medical researcher / virologist who discovered and developed the 1st polio vaccine...then some of us have a much smaller role, it may only be a dot in our little circle .... maybe it's only family, a handful of friends, that we've made an impact, making others lives brighter...just being here..

Personally.. I just really enjoy being married.. maybe it would be better to say I just really ENJOY spending time with my husband and family ...

The 1st time I seen a portrait hanging in a store with this saying many yrs ago , I grabbed a pen out of my purse & jotted down this saying... it was very beautiful.. but I wanted to personalize it..it spoke to me how THIS IS WHAT MATTERS ..... so I blew up a family picture, myself giving 2 of our sons a horsey back ride...had my husband drill holes in a frame.. where I hung the saying with these dangling hearts, this has been on our living room wall for the last 15 yrs... 

The "100 yrs from now" can be looked upon in a variety of ways....some may see Medical advances, finding a cure for cancer, be a social activist - changing the world in a profound & lasting way, these people have worked very hard, complete dedication- driven for a cause, they deserve our highest praise.... and some may have a much smaller role.. we see family, our little circle.. and we're contend with just that.. I wouldn't want to feel it is unworthy, even if our presence here is not really noticed by many... 

This would describe me... that was more my dream growing up.. just to have a family of my own... Of course the Husband is a HUGE part of that, the influence he's had in our lives too..


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