# In Limbo -- Having THE TALK in a few days



## FeministInPink

I just discovered these forums today, after searching for some sort of support community on the web. I've been reading the threads for a little while now, and there seems to be a lot of constructive, supportive feedback here. So I thought I would post about what I'm going through right now. Not really sure where to start, there's so much ...

I'm going to have THE TALK with my husband this Sunday, and I have been feeling nauseated, can't eat, and I've been chain-smoking like crazy (yes, I know it's bad for me, but it's the only thing that calms my nerves right now). I've actually lost about 15# over the last few weeks just from the stress of it all.

Our marriage has been broken for years, essentially the entire time we've been married (and maybe even before that), and it's something I've really only come to grips with over the last several months. I'd had my doubts about our marriage on and off before that, but I'd always dismissed them or pushed them to the back of my mind, because he's not abusive, he's not cheating on me, he's not an addict or a drunk (yet - I'll get to that in a minute), etc, etc. He's genuinely a good guy, which is one of the things that makes this all so hard to deal with. While I've never had a problem asserting myself in the classroom, professionally, or with my friends, I've always done so respectfully; I've always considered myself to be a "nice girl," never wanting to hurt anyone or be mean. And now I find myself in a position in which I will, ultimately, wound my husband deeply.

We've been together for 10 years, married for (two weeks shy of) 5 years. There is no physical or emotional intimacy at this point; in all of 2012, we've had sex twice, and in 2011 I'd say we'd had sex maybe six times. The sex began to dwindle even before we got married, and I was always the initiator; at times I would make excuses (to myself) for him, that he was having problems at work, or this or that, and that things would get better. I've brought it up more than a few times, and he always agrees that we need to have more sex, and that he'll make more of an effort, but nothing ever comes from that; I've suggested scheduling sex, but he says that ruins the spontaneity (what spontaneity? I think). Eventually, in early 2011 I just gave up asking/initiating, because his lack of interest made me feel like **** and I was tired of feeling like he was doing me a favor by sleeping with me. At this point, I'm relieved that we never have sex, because I'm just not attracted to him anymore. How can I be attracted to someone who doesn't want me?

For the last few years, I've felt like I've been alone/single, without the obvious benefits of being single. He works nights as a bar manager (Tues-Sat), and I work a regular 9-5 office schedule. He used to also have Wednesday evenings off, but when the Wed night bartender quit, he decided to pick up the shift (about 2 years ago); I told him I didn't want him to, since we hardly ever see each other. He promised it would only be temporary until they hired someone; but after a few months he told me he was going to keep the shift. I protested, and he insisted that he was doing this for us so we could save more money. So I spend every night alone, unless I go out with friends, which I've been doing more of lately. (It took me a long time to find friends in this city, due to the fact that everyone works so much and I was in grad school part-time for several years.) I eat alone, I go to the movies alone, I shop alone - and I rather enjoy it. I've begun to resent when I have to incorporate him into my plans - or I have to decline invitations on Sundays or Mondays, because that's his time off (aka our time together).

One would think that, with such differing schedules, that our time together would be precious, but it's not. When we first started dating, we would go out and do things, have interesting conversations, explore our city (we lived in Baltimore at the time). Now, all he wants to do is sit on the couch in his underwear and watch TV. We never talk anymore, he doesn't read or want to try new things. He complains that he has to put on pants if I want to go somewhere, and he refuses to shower or brush his teeth on his days off, because it's his day off and he shouldn't have to do anything he doesn't want to on his days off. (Another reason why I'm starting to find him physically unattractive. Seriously.)

Our marriage has come to very closely resemble his parents' marriage: they're both miserable, he lies on the couch all day in his underwear watching TV and ignoring her. And I see him turning into his father, even though he swore that he would never become his father. (His father is an abusive, mysoginistic, racist drunk, among other things.) Maybe not the drunk part (although I am concerned about my husband drinking too much - it's not something I really see on a daily basis, but he works at a bar, so who knows?), but my husband says things sometimes, and all I can think is, "You sound just like your father."

We never fight, but not because we don't disagree; when I get upset about something, I get emotional and I start to raise my voice, especially if I feel the other person's not listening to what I'm saying, and when that happens, he just SHUTS DOWN. Completely. It's like this shade draws down over his face, his eyes go blank, and he refuses to say anything; he pretty much refuses to hear when someone disagrees with him, too. So I've decided to "pick my battles" and as a result, I've let way too much slide. I've always been pretty laid back and I go with the flow - no use crying over spilled milk, no use turning molehills into mountains - and I've never wanted to be a pushy shrew, and as a result I feel like I've allowed myself to be cornered.

I've come to the conclusion that I never should have married him, but hindsight is 20/20, isn't it? We're just not a good long-term match, but I didn't see it before. When we met, I was young (22) and in a bad place in my life; I was floundering and didn't have a good foothold on my life. He was six years older and was stable, and I think he was what I needed at that time. But I didn't see the signs; I didn't see how broken he was, because I was trying to fix myself. We decided to get married early on in our relationship, but we waited for a number of reasons, and then I got so caught up in the idea of the wedding and, "OMG, a guy loves me enough to want to marry me!" that I didn't think about whether marrying him was the right thing for me. And now, here I am, 10 years after we started dating, realizing that I've grown and matured, and he hasn't changed for the better; if anything, he's regressed.

We agreed early on that after I finished school, we would move to Portland, Maine, so he could open his own restaurant. I finally graduated in May 2012, and our plan was to relocate in May 2013, and he would open a restaurant in 2014 or 2015. By graduation, I knew I had to do something, but I thought I would have a year to sort things out, to figure out what I wanted to do and how I wanted to proceed. But life always throws a wrench in your plans. He found a restaurant he wants to buy, and he wants to be relocated by Dec 1, 2012. I told him that I would have to stay here a little longer, because it's a ****ty thing to quit in the middle of the academic year (I work in higher ed). He was surprisingly OK with that. 

I realized I needed to hurry myself up. He assumed that I'm going to co-sign for a small business loan (which he never asked me about, and which I never offered), and I don't want to get tied up in the debts and red tape that go along with a restaurant - regardless of whether we split up. Luckily, there are no kids, and very little property/assets to split up, but the restaurant thing worries me. I'm also worried about what he might do after I talk with him, that he might do something stupid like drain the joint accounts.

So I'm going to see a lawyer tomorrow. I've paid off all the credit cards, I'm going to move half of everything into an account in just my name, and if she recommends it, I'm going to take my name off the joint accounts.

I'm talking to him on Sunday. He's been out of town since August 31, and it's been such a relief to not have to see him for two weeks. He'll be back on Sunday, and then I have to go out of town for 5 days for a work trip, so he'll have time to think about what I've said. I get back the day before our 5th anniversary. I'm not necessarily planning on asking him for a divorce, even though I'm pretty sure where this is all going. I just can't see sacrificing my own happiness for the rest of my life, and I can't see him changing who he is. If he wants counseling, I'll go. But I just don't know how this will all play out. Essentially, I'll be the one leaving him ... but it makes more sense for him to move out of the apartment. I worry about what he'll do while I'm gone. I'm just going through worst-case scenarios. I want to be kind and considerate as possible, but I don't know if I'll get that in return.

OK, sorry that was so long. I don't have a specific question, I just needed to get this all down. Venting, I guess


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## FeministInPink

actually, I do have a question, I guess. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to go about this? Do I rip the band-aid of quickly (drop the boom, so to speak), and then explain all the reasons why, or should I lead up to it. for anyone who might have been in my type of situation, how did you handle it?


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## PBear

In my case, I sat down with my wife and said that she could probably tell that our marriage was having problems. I didn't come right out and say I wanted a divorce/separation, but suggested marriage counselling even though I knew where I thought it was going anyway. But I wanted to hear her side of the story and see what I could have done differently in any case.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jason439

It sounds like you've made your mind up and have gotten your finances in order. 

Be thankful that there aren't any kids involved. I've got 2 boys and they are the only reason I haven't yet started the formal process. I'm worried sick about how they will take it. They are the most important people in my life. 

I would suggest that you do not get involved in this restaurant endeavor as it will only complicate your divorce. 

I've lost nearly 30 pounds the past couple of months and I feel great! 

Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## FeministInPink

@PBear - That's the route I'm thinking I will take. I'll avail myself to counseling, if he wants; while I'm doubtful that it will resolve anything, it may help him understand where/how things went wrong.

@Jason439 - Yes, I believe I've gotten to that point, but I also don't think that I can just flat-out ask him for a divorce. I think that would be too much, too soon ... I think he's either oblivious to how unhappy I am, or he's being naive in thinking that it will go away on its own if he ignores it long enough. He needs to recognize for himself that we have a problem, and I feel obligated to give him an opportunity to pursue counseling or whatever.

That's the thing ... I feel so guilty and obligated, like I'm a bad person for being unhappy in my marriage. That's so screwed up, right? I mean, emotions aren't black/white, good/bad things ... they just ARE. But I still feel so guilty about what I'm going to do, even though I know that I need to prioritize my mental health and happiness. He does that to me ... he's so good with manipulating and making me feel guilty. I don't even think he realizes that he's doing it; he gets it from his mom, I see her do it all the time.

I definitely have no plans to get involved in this restaurant endeavor. I was never supposed to be involved in any way. And then, two weeks ago, out of the blue, he says, "Oh, yeah, when I get back, you'll have to go with my to co-sign the business loan." I was cool, talked around it, but in my head, I was just reeling, because we had never talked about it, he has never asked me if I would be willing to do it, he just decided I was going to co-sign. He has a whole bunch of other people who are interested, who want to invest ... I said that he should get one of them to co-sign.

But my big concern is that I'll get tangled up in it, even if I don't sign anything, just because we're married. I don't want to be held responsible for any of his debts; that's why I'm going to see a lawyer this afternoon. I just need to make sure that I'm protected.


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## Jason439

I hear you about it being hard to just say you want a divorce. 

Maybe your husband wants out too, or feels the same as you. Maybe your upcoming talk will shed some light on how he feels. 

Only you can decide if you want to work on your marriage or divorce. It's not an easy choice.

With no kids and no house, you have very little to complicate matters if you decide to divorce.

I'm torn up over devastating my 2 sons by divorcing, but I don't want them seeing Mom and Dad living together in silence without an ounce of love/care for each other. Unhappy and bitter. Not a good example.


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## Jason439

And speaking to your lawyer prior to the talk is an excellent idea.


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## laser-monkey

That's a sad situation to find yourself in (not dissimilar to my own, as you pointed out) and its good youve been able to see it for what it is and start making some positive choices for yourself. You seem to be worrying a lot about how he'll feel (or are you just worrying about how he'll behave?). Either way it speaks volumes about how caring you are.

As for the band-aid/build-up dilemma... that's a tough one. Normally I'd say go for the build-up so you can state your case before you drop the bombshell, but based on what you've said about him glazing over, I'd say you might need to lead with the big stuff. If you tell him you want to separate (or hwever you want to phrase it), you'll have his attention when you list the reasons.

It sounds like he might get very defensive about the whole thing, so tell him you've got a number of things you want to say and ask him to hear you out before he responds. He's going to have an emotional reaction - that's only natural - but don't get drawn into a discussion. Listen to his response but stand your ground. You may need to end the conversation and give him time to digest it all before you continue. That's fine. Just make sure you say everything you planned to say so you don't have to carry it around with you.

I know it's not much, but you have my support and understanding and I wish you all the best.


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## FeministInPink

@Jason439 -- I can't take credit for the idea of speaking with a lawyer first. My friend insisted that I do it - she was prepared to drag me there, kicking and screaming, if I resisted her advice - and I'm glad that I did. It was really helpful, and the lawyer was really fantastic. I kind of expected this to be all business, but she was very warm, and took cues from my attitude on how she proceeded to make recommendations and give advice. I feel better prepared now, and I'm now aware of pretty much all the different scenarios of how all of this could play out, and what to expect of each scenario, and what I should do in each case. It was very personalized to me and how I want to handle this. She's expensive, but I think she'll be worth it, if things move forward. I get the impression that she can be a shark if need be; but she respects my desires to 1) handle this situation in a loving way as much as possible, and 2) to be fair and equitable, but to protect myself as well.

The visit resulted in both good news and bad news.

The good: as long as I refuse to sign anything for the restaurant AND tell him in writing (aka email) that I want nothing to do with a restaurant investment, the chance of me being held liable (by a judge) for his restaurant debts are slim to none.

The good: right now, on paper, I make twice as much $$ as he does, because he works in a bar and a lot of his income is under the table, so I was worried about him asking me for alimoney if we split. She said that judges recognize that people working in the restaurant industry have a lot of under the table income, so it's highly unlikely that he could get alimoney from me. Furthermore, because he's looking to buy a turnkey restaurant, he'll be paying himself a salary from the get-go; so, if the restaurant happens, alimoney will be a moot point.

The bad: he has a right to half my retirement, because most of the money is post-retirement, BUT I have no claim to his retirement IRA because it's from before we were married, and he hasn't made any deposits since we've married.

The bad: Our land/cottage in Nova Scotia is actually his, and I have no right to it, as it's technically his inheritance. Really, it was gifted to us after the wedding by his grandmother, but I have nothing in writing to prove that. I don't really care about the land/cottage nor do I really want it, but I was hoping to use that as leverage to make sure I could keep my retirement account and convince him to let me have the time share (which has little to no value right now, because we've had it less than a year, so I'd just be assuming a lot of debt). The cottage itself is currently in probate, as his grandmother just passed, and it may be years before the deed goes into his name anyway.

All of this is fair, and it makes sense to me, but at the same time, I feel like it's not fair. He's horrible with money - he overdrafted his account like clockwork every two weeks before I took over his finances. If it weren't for me, we (he) wouldn't have any savings at all because money just burns a hole in his pocket; if not for me, he wouldn't have a retirement account, because he wanted to cash it out when he left that job but I stopped him; if not for me ... many other things as well. I feel like I'm going to be penalized because I'm good with managing money, and he'll get rewarded for letting me take care of him financially for the past 5 years.


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## FeministInPink

laser-monkey said:


> As for the band-aid/build-up dilemma... that's a tough one. Normally I'd say go for the build-up so you can state your case before you drop the bombshell, but based on what you've said about him glazing over, I'd say you might need to lead with the big stuff. If you tell him you want to separate (or hwever you want to phrase it), you'll have his attention when you list the reasons.
> 
> It sounds like he might get very defensive about the whole thing, so tell him you've got a number of things you want to say and ask him to hear you out before he responds. He's going to have an emotional reaction - that's only natural - but don't get drawn into a discussion. Listen to his response but stand your ground. You may need to end the conversation and give him time to digest it all before you continue. That's fine. Just make sure you say everything you planned to say so you don't have to carry it around with you.


I've always believed ... OK, maybe not as a kid, but as an adult I've cultivated a belief in doing everything with as much love and compassion as one can. Which is not so easy to do in this type of situation, when my primary concern needs to be my own well-being and happiness; I need to balance gentleness with no uncertain terms.

And I think this is good advice as to how to go about it. I'm definitely not going to lead with "I want to separate" or "I want to divorce." Basically, I think I'm going to tell him about how unhappy I've been and why (most of what I've posted here), and then I'm going to ask him what he wants to do. I'll give him a week to think about it (while I'm out of town), and then we can talk about it again. I want to know what he thinks all of this means for us; he always just goes along with what I want, that I never know if he wants the same thing or if he's just going along. If I say "I want to separate," he'll agree; if I say "let's do counseling," he'll agree. I need him to make a decision for himself, because I've been doing the thinking for both of us for too long.


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## Jason439

Either way, the lawyer was a good move. The lawyer sounds top notch. 

As for the retirement savings, it's only money and you're young enough (32 right?) that you have plenty of time to continue saving. I know it's crappy to think about giving away half of it, but look at is as an "investment" towards your new life. If you are planning to D, this is probably the only financial hit you will take. 

We've got 2 kids, a huge house, quite a few investments and we both have employer sponsored pensions. I think it could be confusing to sort out in my case. We make pretty much the same $ with her making slightly more.

I'm hoping to stay reasonable through all of this when we start the process of D. I have no intention of going after her retirement savings and pension, nor will insist on "half" of the family possessions. 

I'd prefer for my wife to stay in our home with my sons (50/50 custody of course), but I'm not sure the mortgage could be paid on one income after my share of the equity is added to it. Again, my main concern is minimizing potential stress on my children. 

You really do sound like you have your plan together for the path you are heading down. Everything will work out in the end.


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## FeministInPink

@Jason439, she really was awesome. I really lucked out, because I didn't even know how to look for a lawyer. I just google-mapped family lawyers near my work, and she was one of the closest ones to come up. Her office building is half a block from mine. 

And you're right - at this point in my life, I'm young enough that I could take the financial hit now and make up for it. And besides ... I didn't really know how much $$ I had in my retirement until a couple weeks ago. I set it up way back whenever and have just been socking money into it, but I wasn't tracking the balance or anything. I only recently figured out how to access the account and print up a statement, and it turns out that its value is twice what I thought, so I'll still end up with what I thought I had a few months ago 

I couldn't imagine trying to make sense of all this if I had kids and a mortgage and everything else. (And I AM thankful that our finances are simple.) If you want your wife and kids to stay in the house, and if you both can keep things amicable, is there a possibility of the two of you still owning the house together, so she can stay there with the kids and you don't have to shift equity around and stuff? And then once the kids are grown - or if she re-marries and wants to move - you could sell the house and split the money? I don't know anything about this sort of stuff, but that's the kind of thing I would want to do.


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## Jason439

That's pretty cool about the investments. Not as bad as you thought. Good news. 

Staying as co-owners on the home would be messy and probably not the best choice. I'm very opposed to renting and would need my half of the equity for a sizeable down payment on a small place for myself and to furnish/outfit the new home. 

I don't think I could afford half the existing mortgage and my own mortgage. I make decent $, but not that much. 

I think there is a chance my mother-in-law could move in and share the house with my wife, but we haven't discussed any of this yet. 

My oldest son is having behavioral issues at school and we want to get him on track before we discuss divorcing.


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## Married in VA

Feministinpink - Your retirement, for the time being is yours period. It is an asset that can be divided in divorce but this is not automatic. Your husband does not have a "right" to it. He may, after court action, be able to get half but is he willing to fight for it? That is the question. Again, divorce is a business negotiation. Everything is on the table and there are no "rights". Remember that going in. This is NOT an automatic loss for you.

Jason439 - I hate to say it but if your child is having problems at school they will multiply when their world is shattered and they think they are "losing" one or both of their parents. You know this is not the case but to a child, their family is their world. Is there a way you can work on your marriage instead of divorcing even if that meant separating for a little while?


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## Jason439

Married in VA, I understand his behavior will probably worsen, that is why my wife and I have agreed to keep it very civil and amicable. 

My wife and I have both contributed to the poor state of our marriage. I asked her about counseling and she refused. I think at this point, we have both checked out of the marriage. I'm pretty sure we both no love for each other anymore. I can't see a future with her in it unfortunately. 

With that said, our children are our #1 priority and we will continue to do what is necessary for their well being. If that means living as roommates for now, we can do that while providing a loving, caring home for them. 

BTW, good point on the retirement savings.


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## miss812

I am in a very similar situation as you, pertaining to the work schedules. I got used to being alone, and when he is home now (vacation or sick) I tend to get annoyed because he's interupting my alone time! I think that is a HUGE factor in my marriage ending and a huge one in yours. 
You sound like a very intelligent and caring person. Let us know how the conversation goes! Best of luck to you.


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## FeministInPink

@Married_in_VA, you are, or course, correct about the retirement ... everything is a negotiation. My thought regarding the retirement account is that it is considered "marital property" and he is therefore entitled to ask for half, which is what I meant in saying that he had a "right" to it. Whether or not he would ask for it is in question.


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## 3Xnocharm

Maybe you can start by saying that you will NOT co-sign on the restaurant. Then when he inquires as to why not, you can let him know about your discontent and go from there.


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## FeministInPink

SO, AN UPDATE:

I picked him up from the airport this morning around 11:30, and we went to a restaurant at a public market in our neighborhood for brunch. We were talking about his trip to see the restaurant he's planning on buying, and we started talking about the business loans and his investors, and I knew that I had to do it, especially when he said that there was no way that he could ask his dad to co-sign the loan right now (long story, not going into it). So I told him I wasn't going to co-sign the business loan, either. He got a little bit of a dark/confused look on his face, and he said, but we talked about this. I replied, no, we didn't; you never asked me if I would be willing to co-sign, you just decided that I was going to co-sign; I know we never discussed it, because I would never agree to co-sign. The only time we ever talked about it was like a hundred years ago, when we had just started talking about marriage, when you told me that you didn't want me involved in anyway because the restaurant was your thing, your dream, and that I had my own dreams to pursue, and that you didn't want me to get tangled up in the restaurant and just be the chef's wife. He was quiet for a moment, and then he said, well, then at least only one of us will go bankrupt if this all doesn't work out.

I said, no, that's not true - once you sign the paperwork, this all becomes marital property, so if you fail, it comes down on my head, too. And I'm not saying that I'm not going to sign because I think you're going to fail, because I don't. I think you're going to be brilliant, and I think the restaurant's going to be a huge success, and if we split up, then the only way you'll be protected, the only way you'll get to keep the restaurant (and not have to give half of it to me) is if I refuse to sign the papers, and if I refuse to have anything to do with it in writing. Otherwise, if we get divorced, the judge will give half the restaurant to me, and you'll lose half the profits to me. And I don't want that to happen, because I want you to have this for yourself. This is your dream, and you should have it, because you deserve to be happy and you deserve to get what you've worked for all this time. 

And then I stopped, because I realized what I had just said, while I was spinning all of this in his favor.

And he just stared at me, and he just looked so confused. What are you trying to say?

It took me forever to get it out; the words were stuck in my throat, and I couldn't look at him. Finally, I managed to spit it out in small bits at a time, in between sips of my cosmo for a little bit of courage. I'm not happy in our marriage, I haven't been happy for a while. (Drink.) I don't know if you've seen it, and you've turned a blind eye, hoping things will get better, or if you've been oblivious to it. (Drink.) We've had sex twice in all of 2012, which isn't the problem, it's just a symptom of the problem. (Drink.) I'm so sorry, my timing is horrible. (Drink.) And then I started to cry.

This is, of course, an approximation ... there were many more sentences, but you get the jist. He was quite the whole time, and it was fairly clear from the look on his face that he had no idea I had been so unhappy. I must have looked absolutely miserable - I definitely felt so - so he said, do you want to go home? I nodded. Do you want to go out and have a cigarette while I pay the check? I nodded - I'm thinking he needed a moment to himself to process what I had just said.

So I went outside and waited for him for a little while (slow service), and I was still crying (thank god for sunglasses), and when he came out of the restaurant and found me, he just wrapped me in a hug for several minutes. After a little while, he asked if I could wait there for him for a couple minutes, and he said, you'll be here when I come back, right? He walked into the market, and appeared about 10 minutes later with a bouquet of my favorite flowers.

We walked back to the car in silence, and drove home in silence most of the way. When we got home, he asked me to sit with him on the couch, and he said that he would do anything, whatever it takes, to make our marriage work. So we're going to go to marriage counseling, after I get back from my work trip.

I still don't know what's going to happen. His reaction was a relief, but I don't think I really got the point across regarding how unhappy I am. We've had moments in the past where I get upset, cry, and then he brings me flowers and tells me how much he loves me, and then nothing really changes. I just wasn't able to get everything out, so there's still a lot on my part that's still unsaid; I hoping that counseling will help me to communicate that to him, because clearly I have problems communicating what I feel and what I need. And clearly, he doesn't know how to fix/change it, because he just does the same thing in response every time. And maybe that's because I don't know how to tell him what I need, or maybe it's because he has no good relationship models, and he just thinks that flowers and telling me he loves me is what he's supposed to do.

I've gotten myself so worked up for this convo today, and I'm not sure it really accomplished anything, other than getting him to agree to go to counseling. And now, I kind of can't wait to get out the house and leave on this business trip. 

He's taking a nap right now, which gives me a little breathing room - he's been crazy attentive since we got home, and it's actually making me feel a little batty. I definitely need to schedule these sessions on a day when he has to work, because I don't think I could handle having to spend the whole evening with him at home after a session with a counselor, especially not if it's going to be as draining as today was.


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## FeministInPink

3Xacharm said:


> Maybe you can start by saying that you will NOT co-sign on the restaurant. Then when he inquires as to why not, you can let him know about your discontent and go from there.


That's what I did -- I was drafting an update when you posted this.


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## FeministInPink

miss812 said:


> I am in a very similar situation as you, pertaining to the work schedules. I got used to being alone, and when he is home now (vacation or sick) I tend to get annoyed because he's interupting my alone time! I think that is a HUGE factor in my marriage ending and a huge one in yours.
> You sound like a very intelligent and caring person. Let us know how the conversation goes! Best of luck to you.


miss812, that is EXACTLY how I feel. The schedule was fine for a little while, but I feel like we've become so detached emotionally from one another that time together is emotionally draining, and I feel resentful that I can't do other stuff on Sundays or Mondays because that's the only time we have together. (Funny, he doesn't seem to have the same hang-ups.)

Thanks for the support


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## Jason439

It's good that you had the conversation about the restaurant. Maybe counseling will help you say the rest of what you wanted to. 

You definitely got your point across. You seem like a strong person. I wish I had the same fortitude as you!


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## FeministInPink

Jason439 said:


> It's good that you had the conversation about the restaurant. Maybe counseling will help you say the rest of what you wanted to.
> 
> You definitely got your point across. You seem like a strong person. I wish I had the same fortitude as you!


I felt I had to lead off with the restaurant thing - he's trying to make plans, and he needs to know at this stage that I don't want to be involved, before he gets too deep in.

And thanks ... though I don't feel so strong right now. I feel like I just want to run away and hide.


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## miss812

My heart was breaking for him as I read this. Not to make you feel bad.. he just seems to really love you and he wants to make it work, but you seem to be checked out already. Is that the case?

My husband has told me to get out (for the 15th time), but he'll want me back soon after his anger wears off... I'm not going to allow it this time. In the meantime I am reading a lot to assure myself I'm doing the right thing by leaving. One thing I read was that a lot of times, once you get to marriage counseling it's too late - not for everyone, but most of the time people go when it's already past the breaking point, but it does help you to end it... anyway, what I'm gettinng at is maybe get yourself some books on seperating/divorcing to assure yourself you are making the right decision. I think you are, but I obviously don't know everything and I am just basing this off of what you have said and how you've said it.

What do you think will come about the counseling? do you think it will work? do you have anything left in you that wants it to work?


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## FeministInPink

miss812, that's why this has all been so hard for me. I don't want to hurt him, because I still genuinely care for him. I'm not completely checked out ... truth be told, I don't know where I stand right now. I don't know if I can stay in a marriage where I'm not happy, but maybe with counseling our marriage can improve. At least I know that he wants to make the effort.

One of two things will happen: either things will improve, and we will stay together, or the opposite. Only time will tell ... and only time will tell if I've really checked out or if I've just distanced myself to protect myself. He says that he loves me so much, but I haven't felt that from him in a long time, and it's easy to detach in that sort of situation. The fact of the matter is that he pays lip service when I get upset, but borders on emotional neglect the rest of the time. I don't know if counseling will work, because I'm not sure he's capable of giving/being the husband that I need, and it's going to take a lot for me to re-attach.


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## miss812

I listen to a theripist on cosmo radio, Dr. Jenn Berman- she always says "a Women needs to feel loved to have sex; Men need to have sex to feel loved."

Something to think about when it comes to your sex life.

Keep us posted. Glad to hear you have some hope.


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## FeministInPink

miss812 said:


> I listen to a theripist on cosmo radio, Dr. Jenn Berman- she always says "a Women needs to feel loved to have sex; Men need to have sex to feel loved."
> 
> Something to think about when it comes to your sex life.
> 
> Keep us posted. Glad to hear you have some hope.


Oh, I've been thinking about that a lot ... so what does it mean when your husband never wants to have sex?


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## Jason439

FeministInPink said:


> Oh, I've been thinking about that a lot ... so what does it mean when your husband never wants to have sex?


In my case it means I've lost the physical attraction and emotional desire I once had. I think it happens when you start acting like roommates. 

TBH, it happened before we were married. I can look back now and realize that. Hindsight is always 20/20 right. 

I worked on getting that back in 2010/2011. We were getting back to sex a couple times per week. It was fun and we were getting along great, but for the past year my W pushed me away and became very distant after her father passed. 

I have a few close friends that are there for me when I need to talk. That really helps. It's far better than keeping it bottled up. I've come to terms with our situation and owning my 50% of our problems. I don't know if she's owning her's though, but I'm not worried about it.


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## FeministInPink

Jason439 said:


> In my case it means I've lost the physical attraction and emotional desire I once had. I think it happens when you start acting like roommates.
> 
> TBH, it happened before we were married. I can look back now and realize that. Hindsight is always 20/20 right.
> 
> I worked on getting that back in 2010/2011. We were getting back to sex a couple times per week. It was fun and we were getting along great, but for the past year my W pushed me away and became very distant after her father passed.
> 
> I have a few close friends that are there for me when I need to talk. That really helps. It's far better than keeping it bottled up. I've come to terms with our situation and owning my 50% of our problems. I don't know if she's owning her's though, but I'm not worried about it.


That sounds exactly like how I feel (towards my husband), and for us, too, I think it started even before we married. And I've suspected that he's been going through the same as well, despite the fact that he denies it. I kept hoping it would get better, but despite his repeated promises and my constant efforts, it never did, and now we find ourselves here.

So, the question is, is this something that can be repaired? In your case, I guess the answer is no. I think that's why I've "checked out" - I'm feeling completely defeated at this point. Which is completely out of character for me - I'm usually the perennial optimist. As much as I may love him, and as much as he may love me, it's not the kind of love we need, and I think we both deserve better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jason439

I contributed a lot to the downfall of my marriage. In some ways I was like your husband. Inattentive, unloving, cold and distant. My W was always reading marriage/self help books and I ignored her needs. (only difference is I always shower and brush my teeth...lol)

When I made a conscious effort to change it worked for a while, then fizzled. I guess it was "too little, too late". When her father passed, I think she saw how life is short and checked out of our marriage. I've come to the same conclusion more recently. 

Only you can decide if you want to stay married or divorce. Fixing it will take a lot of work from you both. I feel almost defeated as well. For me it's almost as if I can't/don't want to put that much effort into something I feel is damaged beyond repair.


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## HiMaint57

I just had to post here -- I know exactly what you're going through, Pink, because I'm in the same situation, except that we have been married for 32 years and I'm not young enough for much of anything.

I've posted before on this thread, so if you want the long story, it's in a previous post. I'll just hit the highlights.

We married at 23 -- highschool relationship -- first guy I'd ever seriously dated. Knew deep down I wasn't in love with him, but we got along well and had fun together, and like you I was in a bad place (had depression/anxiety, no self-esteem, looking for security). Had quite a few good times through the years, though. He has always loved me 100%, except probably now.

He is a wonderful man in every way, so I'm the bad person here and 100% to blame. Guilt is with me all the time for feeling the way I do.

After the kids left home, we gradually grew apart. He does his own thing and I do mine -- and I enjoy it. He is gone right now on a motorcycle trip, and I'm loving it. I love being alone. When we're together there's a lot of tension.

About a year ago I told him I never loved him the way I should have. It took many years and a few attempts before I actually came out and told him. He was very sad -- asked me to stay and we would take care of each other. So I have because I owe it to him.

The hard thing for me is staying in a roommate relationship when it used to be a marriage. We haven't had sex in years, sleep separately, and live our own lives -- I don't consider this a marriage. He has completely shut down emotionally and seems content with the status quo.

So you're not alone. It's a very difficult situation to be in. Some people tell me I'm a horrible person and some say we both deserve happiness.


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## miss812

FeministInPink said:


> Oh, I've been thinking about that a lot ... so what does it mean when your husband never wants to have sex?


It could mean a number of things… could be depression, a testosterone or some other hormonal level issue, lack of sleep, deeper issues in the relationship (maybe he feels you are distant from him), stress.
Did it stop suddenly or had it always been scarce? (sorry if you mentioned this earlier!)


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## miss812

HiMaint57 said:


> So you're not alone. It's a very difficult situation to be in. Some people tell me I'm a horrible person and some say we both deserve happiness.


You are NOT a horrible person! For one, how selfless of you to stay with him just to make him happy. 

He, I think, is a bit selfish to have you stay when he knows you are unhappy.

You did make a mistake by marrying him when you knew you were settling, but I think it is a pretty common mistake. And you are definitely reaping the consequences.


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## Jason439

miss812 said:


> You did make a mistake by marrying him when you knew you were settling, but I think it is a pretty common mistake. And you are definitely reaping the consequences.


I agree 100% with this statement. This is one of many revelations I've had over the past few months. Well said.


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## FeministInPink

@HiMaint57 -- you're not a horrible person, and the people who say so don't have your best interests at heart. No one really knows what goes on within a relationship, except for the two people in it. And you need to do what's best for you, what will make you happy, and you're the only one who can decide that. Don't let others project their idea of "morality" on you.

@miss812 -- it's been a slow tapering off over the last 6-7 years, so gradual that I didn't even realize it. We've talked about it so many times, and he always agrees that we need to have sex more, and then nothing gets better. I was always doing the initiating, and it was always the exact same every time, and it made me feel like he was doing me a favor. It began to feel like a pity $%&! every time, and it stopped being enjoyable a long time ago. I stopped initiating, because it made me feel like crap when we weren't having sex and it made me feel like crap when we were. It's actually a relief that we're not having sex anymore, but at the same time ... I can't live like this.

@Jason439 -- me, too. I think I made this mistake.


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## miss812

FeministInPink said:


> @HiMaint57
> @miss812 -- it's been a slow tapering off over the last 6-7 years, so gradual that I didn't even realize it. We've talked about it so many times, and he always agrees that we need to have sex more, and then nothing gets better. I was always doing the initiating, and it was always the exact same every time, and it made me feel like he was doing me a favor. It began to feel like a pity $%&! every time, and it stopped being enjoyable a long time ago. I stopped initiating, because it made me feel like crap when we weren't having sex and it made me feel like crap when we were. It's actually a relief that we're not having sex anymore, but at the same time ... I can't live like this.


Sounds like he has always had a low sex drive... might be hormonal. If you decide to work on things, definitly get his levels checked! This piece might just be an easy fix.


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## FeministInPink

miss812 said:


> Sounds like he has always had a low sex drive... might be hormonal. If you decide to work on things, definitly get his levels checked! This piece might just be an easy fix.


That may be what it is, but he doesn't seem to have any interest in fixing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## miss812

FeministInPink said:


> That may be what it is, but he doesn't seem to have any interest in fixing it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That may change when he realizes it's a big factor in the possible end to your marriage.


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## maincourse99

I admire you for approaching this the correct way. My advice would be to separate, let a couple of months pass, and file for divorce. MC is waste of time IMO. Get it over with, better for you and definitely for him so you can both move on with your lives. Often times serving divorce papers wakes people up to the seriousness of the situation, who knows, it might initiate a big change in him. Many people would be looking to cheat, as my wife did, instead of expressing their unhappiness and either working on it or divorcing. Then you're free to date etc... you seem like an honorable person, sorry that you had to endure such a bad marriage.


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## FeministInPink

@maincourse99 - to be honest, I'm skeptical about how much we'll be able to achieve through marriage counseling, in terms of repairing our relationship. If, miraculously, we manage to solve all our problems and I can be happy in our marriage again, then great. Fantastic. What I expect is that we'll come to the conclusion (together) that our marriage is indeed over, and that maybe we can move forward in an amicable way. If I cut out now, things will get ugly, and I don't want that to happen. And if we can both understand and see how we both configured to the failure in our marriage, then maybe we'll both do better in the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## miss812

FeministInPink said:


> @maincourse99 - to be honest, I'm skeptical about how much we'll be able to achieve through marriage counseling, in terms of repairing our relationship. If, miraculously, we manage to solve all our problems and I can be happy in our marriage again, then great. Fantastic. What I expect is that we'll come to the conclusion (together) that our marriage is indeed over, and that maybe we can move forward in an amicable way. If I cut out now, things will get ugly, and I don't want that to happen. And if we can both understand and see how we both configured to the failure in our marriage, then maybe we'll both do better in the future.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've read most people (not all!!) that go to marriage counseling go when it's too late.. and most do find it's the best way to end things and come to the realization it is over. 
Any update?


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## FeministInPink

Any update? Yes, and no ... I've delayed posting here, because I feel like there hasn't been much to report. Which is frustrating.

(I apologize in advance for what will be, I'm sure, a long post.)

So, after our discussion on the 16th, I had to leave for a business trip for the week. I didn't return until Friday, after he had already left for work. Despite out conversation on the 16th, he still wanted to go for our anniversary dinner on (Sat) the 22nd. We went to The Inn at Little Washington, and it was very romantic, and everyone was congratulating us. (Ugh, that was difficult. The waiter asked him what the secret to a happy marriage was, and my husband responded, "Yes, dear.") Ten courses, a tour of the kitchen, etc. The next day, we drove around and explored the area a bit before heading home. 

By the time we got home, I realized that our conversation on the 16th really didn't convey what it should have, and that I was going to have to do it all over again, because nothing had changed between us. He thought, just as he has every time that I've tried to express my unhappiness, that flowers and assuring me just how much he loves me will smooth everything over. I've begun to suspect that every time I try to vocalize my unhappiness, he sees it simply as me expressing my insecurity over his feelings towards me or his commitment to our marriage.

Once we got home, we watched some TV, and at some point he disappeared into the bedroom. I went to get ready for bed, he was lying on the bed (he has stripped down to his boxer-briefs and undershirt the minute we got home), and he patted the bed and said, "I thought we could have playtime." [sex]

And I thought, I can't do this anymore. I can't lie with him and pretend everything's OK. So I screwed up my courage, and I said what I should have said the week before. He was dumbfounded; the look on his face was as if I had just slapped him. He asked if I still loved him; I said I still loved him, but I wasn't sure if I was still in love with him; he said he didn't even know what that meant. He asked if it was a weight issue, if it was because he had gained weight; he asked if he lost weight if that would change things; I said it was not. He said that I was giving up on us too easily, that I was calling it quits at the first rough patch; I said this isn't a rough patch, I've felt this way for over a year now; I said if I was giving up, we wouldn't be having this conversation. He said, "You mean you'd be asking me for a divorce?" I replied, "I wouldn't be asking, because I would have already moved out."

We ran out of things to say; I knew he was upset, that he was hurting, but I wasn't going to apologize for the things I said, because I knew they needed to come out. After a few minutes of silence, he said, "I'm going out for a cigarette," and he went outside for about ten minutes. When he came back in, it was obvious he had been crying. He said, "I love you more than anything in the world, and I'm going to fight for us. I promise that I will do anything and everything it takes to fix this. Can you promise that you'll do the same?" And all I thought, I can't. I'm so tired of all this. So I didn't say it, but I nodded. And he asked me what we should do; I said we should go to marriage counseling, and he said that if that's what I thought we should do, he would do it. So we're trying to find a marriage counselor that can work with our weird schedules. I'm letting him take care of it; he needs to take some responsibility in our relationship. 

But since we've talked (two weeks now), he's completely withdrawn from me. Sex is completely off the table at this point, which is a little bit of a relief at this point. If I was being neglected before, this is even worse. I don't even know how to explain it; he's not being cold or sullen. Right now (Sunday night), he's off playing XBox in the bedroom. We were supposed to go to a corn maze/pumpkin cannon place tonight, but it was raining, so we decided not to go (it's 1.5 hrs away). I suggested we go out to dinner, go see a movie, or do something else. You know, like a date night. This is supposed to be our day together, and it would be nice if actually did something together. But he didn't want to do anything - he wanted to watch animation domination on Fox. Once that was over, he just got up and left the room. He's been playing XBox online with someone in the bedroom for the last two hours. He didn't even say, I'm going to play video games. He just left the room.

He hasn't said he loves me or has touched me in any way in the last two weeks. He hasn't kissed me - not even goodbye on Saturdays when he leaves for work. The only exception is Sunday and Monday nights, when he "tucks me in" - he gives me a little back rub right before bed. He hasn't asked me for a back scratch, which he used to always do when we had an afternoon or evening together.

So, that's where we are. I don't really know what he's doing - maybe he's just trying to protect himself, emotionally - but what I do know is it's not helping the state of affairs. Who knows, maybe he's been faking this whole time, too? At any rate, it doesn't really compel me to try to save our marriage.


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## Jason439

It sounds like he might be doing a 180 on you. There's lots of information on the forum about it. 

I'm sorry you are going through he11. It does sound like he wants to make your marriage work. Hold him to that if you want to make it work also. I'm pretty sure you've made it clear in your previous posts that your "done". Only you can decide what is best for you.

At least by going to MC, if things don't work out, you will know that you did everything possible to fix the marriage. 

Don't just settle like so many people do.


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## FeministInPink

Jason439 said:


> It sounds like he might be doing a 180 on you. There's lots of information on the forum about it.


Jason, it's funny that you say that ... because, at first, I was thinking, "He's doing the 180! He's doing the 180!" (Like I won a prize for figuring it out ...) But if he is, he's doing it all wrong: ignoring me so he can go sit in his underwear and play Borderlands 2 on XBox isn't going to entice me much.

Although, he WAS wearing pants when I got home from work yesterday ... but I think that has more to do with the fact that it was really cold yesterday, and he hadn't turned on the heat.

To be honest, I don't think he's playing games with me or anything. I think he's just trying to sort all this out for himself. I've had a lot of time to think about all of this - he's had all of two weeks, and he probably feels like the rug has been pulled out from under him. And this is how he deals with things. He shuts down emotionally.

I don't know why I was so worried about what he would do after THE TALK, because he hasn't done anything stupid or crazy. And I don't know why I thought that he might, because that's never been his MO. He never does anything unpredictable or crazy. When faced with a problem, he:


Turns a blind eye to the problem, hoping it will go away.
When confronted with problem, he reacts/behaves in the way he thinks the other person wants, in order to make the problem go away, rather than dealing with the actual problem.
When that doesn't work, he shuts down completely.
I'm sorry, I'm sure you all don't need to read this ... I'm thinking out loud, and this is the first time I'm coming to this realization. I've seen him do all this before, but I'm only recognizing the pattern now. When he left his last job (in 2006), this is exactly how it went down; he's told me about past breakups and leaving other jobs in the past, all of which fit this same pattern.

In the past, he puts off taking any action/dealing with the problem until he's so miserable he can't stand it, and then he quits. By insisting on the MC thing, I'm forcing him to face the problem - so who knows what will happen with that?


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## Jason439

You are correct about the 180. If it was true 180, he'd be getting active not laying around in his underpants.

Although, I've been doing my own 180 for a few months, and I will watch TV or sit and listen to music by myself. I've also dropped about 30lbs too. I know my W has noticed the change, but I can't say it has changed her feeling of wanting out. 

We've agreed to sit down and have a talk this week about our future. I have a feeling it will be tonight as this will be the only chance we have this week.


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## Cara

Jason439 said:


> Married in VA, I understand his behavior will probably worsen, that is why *my wife and I have agreed to keep it very civil and amicable. *
> My wife and I have both contributed to the poor state of our marriage. I asked her about counseling and she refused. I think at this point, we have both checked out of the marriage. I'm pretty sure we both no love for each other anymore. I can't see a future with her in it unfortunately.
> 
> With that said, our children are our #1 priority and we will continue to do what is necessary for their well being. If that means living as roommates for now, we can do that while providing a loving, caring home for them.
> 
> BTW, good point on the retirement savings.


Boy, if I had a dollar for every time I heard that one.


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## Jason439

Cara said:


> Boy, if I had a dollar for every time I heard that one.


What one?


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## FeministInPink

That's what I was thinking 

Jason, even if the 180 doesn't change her feelings about wanting out, at least it's helped you make changes that are good for your own well-being. Good look with your talk - I hope it's productive, and I hope you both find what you're looking for.

(That sounds so cheesy, but I mean it!)


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## Jason439

FeministInPink said:


> That's what I was thinking
> 
> Jason, even if the 180 doesn't change her feelings about wanting out, at least it's helped you make changes that are good for your own well-being. Good look with your talk - I hope it's productive, and I hope you both find what you're looking for.
> 
> (That sounds so cheesy, but I mean it!)


Thanks Fem!

I'm a bit sick to my stomach about the talk, but I plan to lay my cards on the table. We either work on the marriage, or we start the D process. 

We had both our families over for Canadian Thanksgiving on Sunday and she seemed in ok spirits so I'm somewhat hopeful but just don't know for sure. 

It was kind of surreal for me drinking a couple beer with her brother and sister's fiancé while we deep-fried the turkey like we always do. I kept thinking about how many people will be affected if things don't work out. Definitely an emotional roller coaster to say the least. 

Thanks for the encouragement.


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## FeministInPink

I know how you feel (the sick to your stomach part), but that will go away after you've talked and you know where you stand.

And sure, other people may be affected and other people may have their opinions, but you can't be worried about that. Right now, your focus needs to be your own well-being and that of your children. 

The other people who will be affected? They have their own lives and their own problems - they might be sad if you guys break up, but they also know that this stuff happens. So don't worry about them; you can't control their reaction(s) or how it affects them. They are responsible for that. You are responsible for you and your children. That's all you need be concerned with.

*hugs*


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## Jason439

Fem,

You are so right! Thanks


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## FeministInPink

So, I just thought I would post a quick update ... the last update I posted was about three weeks ago.

So, he seems really fixated in going for counseling at this place called The Women's Center. Despite the fact that I gave him a list of local counselors (to both our jobs) that is 6 pages long (~20 listings per page), he really wants to go to this place for some reason, but we couldn't get in right away. 

He finally relented in his initial refusal to go to counseling on a day when he has work, and I've spoken with my boss about the possibility of massaging my schedule a bit so I could take some time to see a counselor during the day (he was very supportive, and even confided in me that he and his wife have been to counseling). My husband called the Center back, and they said they should have an opening for us in the beginning of November, and that they would call him when something opened up.

So we're just waiting for that. And it sucks.

He pretty much wants nothing to do with me, from what I can tell. On Sundays and Monday evenings, we'll eat meals together, and then he disappears into the bedroom to play on his XBox. If there's a show on TV he wants to watch, he'll come out, but that's it. He's perfectly nice to me when he does speak to me, but if doesn't have to talk to me, he doesn't.

About two weeks ago, at 3 am (he was finishing up at work), he sent me a long rambling text message about what he thinks he did wrong, and how upset he is. I'm not going to post it here or go into it in depth, but its contents told me that he really hasn't heard or understood what I've said. I don't know if he sent it with the intention of starting a dialogue, but I decided that I just couldn't talk about it any more until we see a counselor. It's so hard for me to vocalize these things, and it's even harder if I have to do it multiple times because he's not hearing me.

And I've been a little bad ... I snooped in his email. (I know, bad bad bad.) I don't know who he's told, or what he's been telling them. Well, I know that he's told as least one person (via email), and he's either exaggerating or he has truly misunderstood what I said. He's told this friend that I told him I don't want to be married to him anymore, and that I've been unhappy in our relationship for the last 8 years. He has a tendency to exaggerate everything and over-react to things, so who knows what he's been telling our mutual friends.

My friend J thinks he's clearly not getting it, and that I should move out and ask him for a separation/divorce just to get him to wake up (she's graciously offered her second bedroom to me for as long as I would need it). I get what she's saying, but I want to give counseling a chance. I'm hoping with someone else there, maybe he will finally understand what I'm trying to tell him.


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## Jason439

Hi Fem,

I was wondering about this thread recently. 

Sounds like he still might be doing the 180. The fact that he is interested in counseling could be a good thing if that's what you want also. 

I recently had the talk with my W. she wants nothing to do with counseling. Doesn't want to listen to some stranger pointing out our mistakes. 

She realizes we have both made serious mistakes and wants to move on. 

I actually feel quite relieved as strange as that might sound. I now know where she stands and what she wants and I've accepted it. 

I have a feeling you will get some relief as well once your H knows exactly what you want to do with your marriage and accepts it. 

Keep us posted on your story.


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## FeministInPink

Jason,

I've been wondering about this thread myself  But seriously, since I pretty much never see him, there isn't much to report on.

Maybe he is attempting the 180, who knows? He has started wearing (pajama) pants around the house, instead of just his underwear, but that might be due to the fact that it's getting colder out now. I don't know that he's so interested in counseling; I told him we had to go. He just seems fixated on this one particular counseling center; he didn't bother calling any other counselors when he learned that this place was full.

Whatever, he can 180 me all he wants. If he's not making deep changes, it's not going to matter anyway. Doing the 180 isn't going to fix the problems in out marriage.

I'm glad you've finally had the chance to talk to your W., and I totally understand the relieved feeling. It's good to know where you stand, and once you accept it, you can start to move forward.

I would like to move forward, I feel like I'm just treading water right now. Treading water is exhausting.


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## Jason439

I'm sure you will get there in due time.

I can relate to the exhausting part of being in Limbo. It can certainly take its toll. 

The only positive to the stress/anger/sadness I've been feeling is that I have lost 40 pounds and I intend to keep it off. I am at the same weight I was in college now and I've had to buy a new wardrobe. I am liking the "new me".


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## FeministInPink

I'm just impatient - one of my flaws 

I suppose the most I can do right now is just focus on myself and the other things in life that make me happy. Maybe if I can start making some strides in other areas (taking control!), then maybe this one out-of-control are of my life won't seem to awful.

And really, I just have to be patient. And plan for the future, whatever that holds?


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## Jason439

That's the best thing you can do. That seems to be the advice given on TAM. 

Get yourself ready for your new life.


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## devotion

That's why I did the divorce 180. I'm not convinced it really helps as much as listed, but it definitely prepares you to move on. Give it your best shot but sometimes the right thing is the hard thing, and that is to divorce. 

As per the text and overheard email, I wouldn't look too much into that specifically. He's trying to process the relationship on his terms and that will give him a wide range of emotions. I know depending on when you ask me I can focus on the 'cheating b!tch' angle or focus on the 'took her for granted' angle.. both are true. One's an easier story at bars


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## Jason439

devotion said:


> That's why I did the divorce 180. I'm not convinced it really helps as much as listed, but it definitely prepares you to move on. Give it your best shot but sometimes the right thing is the hard thing, and that is to divorce.
> 
> As per the text and overheard email, I wouldn't look too much into that specifically. He's trying to process the relationship on his terms and that will give him a wide range of emotions. I know depending on when you ask me I can focus on the 'cheating b!tch' angle or focus on the 'took her for granted' angle.. both are true. One's an easier story at bars


Devotion,

I think you hit the nail on the head with your post. 

These are my exact thoughts/feelings, and I swing back and forth between them quite often.


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## FeministInPink

So, an update:

I haven't updated because there really hasn't been much to update. We've basically been in a holding pattern; he mostly ignores me, and I do my own thing. The holidays (both Thanksgiving and Christmas) were a combination of torture and relief. On one hand, we both had extra days/time off and were forced to spend that time together (when that was really the last thing that I wanted to do, not to mention all the forced togetherness imposed by many hours of travel by car), but on the other hand, the family gatherings are so large and there's so much family that I want to see, that I can let someone else babysit him for a while.

We haven't talked about any of this since October; I feel like he's misinterpreting everything I say, and blowing it all out of proportion. I don't really see the point of talking if he's not really listening. I decided to put off any more discussions until we could get with a therapist, because maybe with a third person there to act as an interpreter, maybe he'll finally understand what is really going on here.

I get the impression that he thinks this is just a phase I'm going through, and that eventually I'll come around (the same way his mother always went back to his father). I don't think he really takes this seriously, because he doesn't think that I would really leave. He thinks he can just buy me flowers, and tell me how much he loves me, and that it'll all smooth over. But he won't have the difficult conversations; when a conversation gets heated or painful, he shuts down completely; this is the coping mechanism he developed as a child to deal with anger and pain, to deal with the horrible, abusive childhood he had. But he hasn't developed a healthy way to deal with these emotions as an adult. So I've just stopped bringing up topics that might upset him (that might either cause him anger or pain), because I know it's no use. It frustrates me immensely that I can't discuss these issues with him, because his inability/refusal to deal with his emotions is inhibiting my ability to act as a fully functioning adult (with an adult relationship) by not allowing me me to process and discuss my own emotions with him. I have the opportunity to discuss them here and with my friends, but that only goes so far.

I've also come to recognize that because of his inability to deal with these types of emotions, a pattern develops. Rather than recognize that things aren't going well in a situation (be it a job or a relationship), he turns a blind eye to the problems, either ignoring them or hoping they will get better on their own. He never takes an active role in making his particular situation better; he waits, ignording the problem, until it becomes so irrevocably disastrous and untenable that it can no longer be fixed, and it implodes and crashes around him. So, ultimately, he never has to do anything about the problem - things just happen to him. He refuses to take ownership of his life and what happens to him, and then he *****es about his job (or about me and how I've blindsided him with this mess), or whatever it is that's falling apart at this moment. He did this with his previous job, and he's doing it with his current job, and he's clearly doing it with our relationship. I don't know this for certain, but I would lay odds that this is how his previous relationships fell apart, as well.

Sorry, went off on a little tangent there.

So, We finally got an appointment at The Women's Center (the place that Gordon was so dead-set on going to), but he couldn't get an appt with a licensed therapist; our appointment is with a therapist who is working towards getting her license. Our appointment is today at 5 pm. So, I'm a little anxious, because I really don't know what is going to happen. So we'll see. I might have more to update after our appointment.


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## FeministInPink

And, can I just say, that I am EXHAUSTED? This whole thing is just sucking up my emotional and physical energy, so that I have nothing left for myself and my writing, which SUCKS. I came across this quote the other day, and it seemed quite apropos:

"Nothing is so exhausting as indecision, and nothing is so futile."
-- Bertrand Russell

I wrote it on a Post-It and stuck it to my computer monitor at work.


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## FeministInPink

Hello, all -- I've posted an update here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/113450-wtf-going-me.html#post3902954

Sorry in advance -- it's pretty long.


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