# Recently separated, seeking insight.



## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, I'm just trying to seek out some insight from anyone who may have some. Also I 
apologize for the wall of text. It turned into many more words than I was intending, but details might make it easier to provide insight.

Background: My wife and I have been together for 11 years, married for the last 4 of those. We have two young children together, aged 1 and 3. She is the only woman I've ever had sex with, and we've been together the majority of our adult lives.

For the last several years, we've both been progressively less and less happy with our relationship. Aside from the period where we were trying to conceive our kids, we've barely had sex in several years - and in the last year, only twice (and both times she wasn't into it, which ruined the experience for both of us). She has felt like I was emotionally absent, and has been progressively denying me any and all forms of physical affection (not just sex, all of it). I, being hurt and rejected by this, have been less and less inclined to spend the time and energy being present for her emotionally - which sort of created a vicious cycle where we had less contact, so I wanted less quality time, so she wanted less intimacy, so I had less of a desire to spend time with her.. and so on. A few weeks ago, she came to me and said she wanted to be separated because she felt that she had been putting so much energy in and that I was simply not able to be the man she needed to be happy. She said that she felt we both needed to be separate to work on our own individual issues, and that maybe in the future if we could each fix ourselves we might be able to get back together as two new people. Then she told me that she needed the option to, if she met someone in the future, not feel bad about pursuing a relationship with them - and she told me that she could have sex with another man and not feel bad about it, as long as there was just sex and no love - but if she felt like she was falling in love with him that she'd know we needed to divorce for good. She also, in a bout of anger during one of the fights that this precipitated, told me that she wouldn't even care if I had sex with another woman - but it would hurt her deeply if I were to be romantic/buy flowers/be emotionally involved with another woman. Due to the kids and mortgage/$$, we have to stay in the same house for at least the next few years regardless of what happens, so I've moved into a new bedroom in the basement.

Before that day, I would have never worried she would cheat - even when we had gone a year without any sex at all. But since she told me that, it was all I could think of. I know she has a few male friends and she insists they are nothing more, but it's hard for me to even imagine her talking to them now without feeling like they are cheating or planning to cheat. In my shock and panic after she decided we needed to separate, I peeked at her facebook messages a few times and saw that she was talking to some dude who I had never met, sending him little heart emotes and being generally very loving and they were deleting their conversations regularly. I confronted her about it, and she got really mad that I was snooping (to be honest I felt bad about it too, it's fair to be mad about that), and she insisted that there was nothing going on but that he had been trying to get with her and she shut him down - and even though I believed her (she's a very honest person by nature), I still have a hard time getting over what I had seen. He lives in a different city and there's no way they could have gotten together to actually do anything, so I know there's no chance they actually had sex or anything.. but the idea that she was meeting her emotional needs from another man really ate at me. Fast forward a few more weeks, as I started to adjust to the separation and come out of my crazed mental crisis that it brought on. The more I considered the situation, the more I began to accept that our marriage had been unhappy for a long time for both of us. The fact that she had been so adamant about being able to potentially see other people in the future weighed on me constantly, even though I'm mostly certain she hasn't actually been looking for someone it really chewed me up. 
One night, after she and I had had yet another fight about it all, I decided in my anger to put myself on a dating site to see if there was anyone out there who might actually like me how I am. After so long of my wife insisting that she had done everything right and that I was 100% the root cause of all of our marital problems, and after so long being denied affection I had felt like I was a completely unlovable, unattractive person and my very masculinity had been stripped away. I just wanted to feel like a man again, and I never ever would have considered it if my wife hadn't insisted that she wanted to have the option to do so. She insisted though, that she wasn't looking for it but rather she wanted to be able to say yes if someone asked her out in the future and made her feel good about herself again. 

So after a while, I met someone on there. We've never gotten together in person, just talked online, on the phone, and via text, but we have an amazing amount in common in ways my wife and I never did, and it's been a very long time since I felt this excited to get to know someone. I'd be lying if I said I didn't also want to have sex with her, especially considering how long it's been since my wife was willing to be passionate with me, but I'm old fashioned in that I feel like you should know someone well before you jump into bed with them. I very badly want to meet her and see what happens, because I don't remember how long it's been since I felt like this. I figured since my wife had initiated the separation, and since she was the one whose idea it was, and since she insisted that she needed the option to be with other people that it might be OK. So, I made a date with her - but when I told my wife that I was going to be going out (to make sure she could be home to watch the kids), she lost her mind and we had the worst fight we've ever had. Even though I tried to be evasive (I didn't want to lie to her, but I didn't want to just flat-out tell her that I was going to date another woman), she saw right through me and when asked about how we met I told her I had put myself on a dating site. She called me all kinds of terrible things, said she hated me, said I broke her already-broken heart again, called me disgusting and acted like all I wanted was to find some **** to bang. That's not it at all, I mean - I have physical needs for sure, and they haven't been attended by my wife in a long time, but there was a lot more missing from our marriage than just sex. I just feel like honesty is important, and I didn't want to be sneaky. My wife was incredibly hurt that I had been actively seeking out companionship in that way. I cancelled the date, and removed myself from the site to ease my wife's mind - but I'm still secretly in contact with the new woman, and I'd still really like to meet her and see what happens. 

So I'm torn. Part of me doesn't want to throw away the last 11 years and sacrifice the wholeness of our family, because I know that if I do go date this woman that there will never be a chance of reconciliation with my wife. If that happens, we'll divorce for sure and she'll take our kids, and I'll only get to see them every other weekend or some such. It will devastate us both financially for years. It'll be as though the last 11 years have been a complete waste. Part of me, though, realizes that we've been unhappy for years, and sometimes I feel that maybe the reason it wasn't working with my wife is because we really weren't right for each other - but we had so much time and energy invested that we didn't want to quit despite it. Maybe if it was 'right', it wouldn't have been so hard to build each other up.

I never would have thought that before she decided to separate, but maybe I want to divorce; maybe we're just not right and no amount of 'working on ourselves' is going to get us to a place where we can be good together. I don't know if I can really forgive her wanting to separate or her desire to see other men, nor do I know if she can ever forgive me for wanting and actively seeking to see what it's like with someone else. I suspect that if it weren't for the kids we'd already have gone our separate ways, but for their sake I feel like I'm obligated to stay. But how far does that obligation go? How long should we both endure a relationship that drains us rather than building us up? How good is it for the kids to stay together for their sake, but be miserable and without love? What if I really am the problem though? What if it's not that we don't love each other, but that I'm as broken as she says and I'm incapable of real love?

In this situation, with all of this information, is it really cheating if I pursue a relationship with the new woman? I'm not expecting to find the love of my life or anything. I tried that, and she changed her mind. I just want to feel alive and like a man again - and maybe it's just the infatuation of meeting someone who 'gets my engine going', but I don't remember the last time I felt like I do when I'm talking to this new woman. I don't want to sneak around, I couldn't do it 'behind my wife's back' so to speak, but I know that if I do it openly then I lose my children and any chance of reconciliation - I'm just not really sure if reconciliation is even what I want.

I know there's a lot of questions here, and a lot of rambling and ranting.. I'm really just hoping that I can get some insights from anyone who my story speaks to. 

Thank you for your time.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Yes you are cheating and so is your wife. What do you want to do now?

Do you want to reconcile or do you want to pursue your new love interest?

To reconcile, there has to be two people willing. Your wife has to agree to reconciliation. 

You guys need to talk, but probably with the help of a therapist would be better since you guys just fight and hurt each other instead of positive, constructive communication.

Bibi


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

reborn,

To be honest she sounds like a cake eater....she does not want you to see anyone but she is okay with having a relationship with this guy...like they say "homy don't play like that"....you both have to be inside a marriage or outside the marriage but not at the same time, having one foot in and one foot out won't work...and it's not fair to the new people. your wife probably did not count on the fact that your dateable and now that you are going on your first date she is freaking out. you both need to sit down as adults and talk this out, put all your needs on the table...and your ugliness and see if there is a marriage to savage or walk away...and BTW neither of you should involve anyone else for now.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I think bibi1030 in the main is right. Stop contact with the other women immediately. 

Unless this separation thing was a test, I do not understand your wife's reaction. It seems like she is cake eating and s upset plan B is walking out the door. What exactly is her reasoning? Does she understand what her words and actions have done to you? Do you understand that for a women to thrive in a marriage she needs an emotional connection and that for a man to thrive in a marriage he needs intimacy? 

It is past time for you both to seek help. See threads on this site about counseling.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

As far as counselling, we have made an appointment with a counsellor together as well as separately. I'm just not sure what we might get from it. The more I think about it the more I wonder if it's even something I want to save. I don't want to just quit, but if the love really isn't there then might it not be better to split before the kids are old enough to understand? I'm not just saying that because I want to date the other woman either, I just.. I don't want to work at it for months or years to recover the trust and such only to realize that it's still not working and split anyhow - and by then the kids would be old enough to get hurt by it as well. We've both been so angry, so bitter, and so emotionally and physically deprived for so long that I don't know if we could ever find a way back from the resentment.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Here is the thing, it is a gamble no matter what you do decide. It is where you want to place your risk into.

As for the whole children thing, you are the role models, and so is the people you surround your children with. My uncle was my father figure and I only saw him on the weekends and when he looked after us when our parents were away. I had far more quality time with my uncle than my father even though I nearly saw my father on a daily basis.

The whole idea of love of your life should be removed from your lexicon. People change and want different things. She may have been the love of your life at one point, but it is not a guarantee to stay that way.

For example brain damage can radically alter the personality of a person and if it were to occur to either of you, you both can change into someone who the other cannot be in love with.

It is a gamble as stated. But from the sounds of it, you both cannot work on the relationship until you both start working on each of your flaws that are strong enough to stop a loving relationship from occurring.

The new person is easy, there is no history. Could there be a chance that you and the new person are better match, yes. The opposite is the same as well.

Whatever you do decide, you only have time, energy, and brain processing power to manage one relationship full time at the moment. Because it could take months to years, and if you do fall in love and want to start a new relationship with someone else, if you have flaws you are not aware of, it can potentially damage future relationships.

There is no correct answer when it comes to working it out with your wife or find someone new, but you can sure start by just focusing on yourself at the moment.

Personally, I would not even at the moment consider going back to the wife. She is allowed to fall in love and move on while you are not. That would not work for me at all. She has a higher probability of finding a better match eventually if she keeps going. She wants you to wait if nothing better comes along.

If she wants the marriage to work, you both go to counseling and you both see your own individual counselor, and stop dating others, it only complicates matters. Should she choose not to go down that route, you have your answer. She just may want herself to be secure and move on before you have the chance to because she does not want to end up alone.


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

You two need to either drop others and work on the relationship, or divorce and get it over with. 

As the man, I'd recommend you move first either way. If you want to R, offer and insist on full transparency, NC with opposite sex friends, and start working to meet her emotional needs even if she's not meeting yours. Or, go ahead and D. A separation with no concrete goals or plan ends in affairs and/or D anyway. 

I recommend the first, if she hasn't slept with anyone else. I'd offer 2 options, work on the M together, or you date your "friend" and tell your W you are divorcing.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

She is basically going to couple's counseling against her will (her words) because she feels that it's pointless to try to fix a relationship made from two broken people. I suspect that her stubborn preconceived notions will prevent it from being helpful for us, but I'm still willing to give it a shot. 

I recognize that it's a gamble either way, and on some level I think I also realize that going with the new woman is the 'easy way out', so to speak, but it's hard to just give it up when it's the best feelings I've had in .. I don't even know how long, but it's been years. Trying to work it out with my wife is guaranteed to be more pain and suffering for both of us, and that is going to last a while no matter what - and it still might not end in us getting back together. 

I don't want to waste the last 11 years, but I don't want to squander any more time either. I don't know if I could be better off with the new woman, there's no way to know. It might not be anything, we might meet and have no chemistry, or we might just not work out at all - and that's ok, there's nothing really invested anyhow.. but as time passes I keep thinking that there MUST be someone better for me than my wife. If her and I were really in love the way we should have been, it should have been easy to keep it from getting to this point. 

On reflection, my wife and I originally got together because we were both so broken and so in need of love that we were willing to overlook all the red flags just to have someone be willing to love us. We had nothing in common, really, besides a desperate desire to be loved and accepted. Then after a few years, we moved in together, because "we might as well"; then after a few years, I proposed to her - but I realize looking back that I didn't do it from some "I need to be with her forever" place, but rather because she wanted it and "that's what people do" when they have been together as long as we had. Even.. Don't get me wrong, I love my kids more than I thought was even possible.. but I only agreed to have them because that's what SHE wanted, and because I knew it would break our sexual drought for a while. 

I can't help but feel like I got in it for the wrong reasons, then just stuck with it because I was scared to be alone and afraid that nobody could ever love me besides her. Maybe that's why the idea of this new woman is so incredibly addictive to me - it's proof that maybe I was wrong, and maybe I am a more attractive and loveable man than I had convinced myself I was. Maybe it's actually possible for someone besides my wife to desire me. 

*shrug* I know I'm ranting, I guess I'm just using this as a pseudo-soapbox to try to sort my own feelings out.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Wait, what?

Am I reading this right?

Your wife wanted to separate and feel free to see other people. She started seeing someone else, and so did you.

Now she's mad about that?

Your only response should be "don't wait up."


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

She hasn't actually started seeing anyone, or so she says - and I believe her, but it still eats at me how much time she spends talking to her male friends. She said that she isn't in a position to be in a relationship with -anyone- right now, myself included. She said that she wanted the option, in the future, if she met someone who made her feel good, that she could go out with them and not feel like she's doing something wrong because she's obligated to me. She says she's mad at me because while she was saying 'maybe one day I'd like to' and I said 'I'd like to try now'.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

So she's hearting another guy via texting, wants to separate, CLEARLY PUTS IT OUT THERE THAT SHE CAN HAVE SEX WITH OTHER MEN AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING...

And then she gets mad at you for being on a dating site and going on a date?

What the hell does separating mean to her? That she gets to flirt with another guy via texting or **** him and you get to sit and wait?

After living in a sexless marriage?

Sally forth my good man. Go out and date. Then give your head a shake why you stayed with this woman for so long.

In the meantime, think long and hard why this woman, who won't have sex with you, wants to be clear about not feeling bad about having sex with other men.

It's because she doesn't want to have sex with you, but wants to have sex with other men.

And likely already is.

She just doesn't want to lose her meal ticket and built in babysitter who's willing to sit there feeling bad about himself while she does that. Because the first thing you're going to clue in on the moment your penis enters another vagina is... 'why the hell didn't I do this sooner and dump that woman!'

And the first thing that will happen when another woman gets serious with you, is to get you to clue in on that you need to divorce this woman.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

I wouldn't state that the last 11 years were a waste. If it were an not a fulfilling relationship since the beginning, then probably yes. That is 11 years of misery.

There is no point in going to counseling if she holds that attitude, it would be a waste of money. People have to be open for change and have the capacity to listen. There needs to be a strong incentive for her to place her focus into repairing the marriage. Other than that, it might be wise to use counseling for the two of you to transition into single people.

But look at it from this way, gaining the tools to make a relationship work will be useful if you are with or not with your wife.

Plus, no one is really taught relationship skills to make them last a lifetime, nor does everyone have the capacity to make it last a lifetime.

The beginning is always easy, there is the whole honeymoon phase that drugs us into being our best, motivating us to look after one another. It is keeping that type of love alive is the hard work.

From what you posted, it sounds like it is more highly likely to fail. Sounds like she is more likely to sabotage the whole thing with just her attitude.

Even if you want to work things out, it is probably better to go down the more realistic route and see the type of person she is towards you.

I think the goal should not to be together, but what is the best for you both as individuals. What is the point of working things out short term if you both have different wants and needs out of a relationship. Granted that no one is likely to get out they want out of a relationship, is there enough there for the both of you.

Plus her anger and resentment and yours will block the chances of a bond reforming. Without enough positive emotions, the negative will stop anything from being fix. Negative emotions have more weight than positive ones.

Here is an example. Someone buys you two gifts but then punches you in the face for every two gifts. For most, the two gifts will not outweigh the one punch.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

What did she say when you pointed out it was her idea? She want an open separation or not. Be firm ob this point. He she commits to MC or not.

Why did you move yo the basement? It was not smart. She does not want to be in the same room - se moves.

Why will you only see t kids on week ends? Why cant you stay in the house and keep primary custody? There is no reason.
Check out divorce dads, lot of anger there and self justifications, but some good insights.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

JohnA said:


> What did she say when you pointed out it was her idea? She want an open separation or not. Be firm ob this point. He she commits to MC or not.
> 
> Why did you move yo the basement? It was not smart. She does not want to be in the same room - se moves.


When I pointed out that it was her idea, and that I would have never looked elsewhere had she not suggested it, she got very defensive and said that she was very clear that she wasn't -looking- for a new man, but that she wanted to know that if some time in the future she met one, and wanted to pursue a relationship, that she would be able to because she wouldn't be bound to me. She was upset that I was actively looking to replace her, while she was just hoping that some day her prince charming would show up and save her from her miserable life (that prince charming bit is my own words, not hers, but that's the impression she gave me).

As far as the basement move, it's just better this way (she's still breast feeding our son whose room is upstairs) .. and truthfully, I kinda like my new room in the basement


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Her logic is skewed. So if she meant a guy in the super market that was cool? Is this a pregnancy related issue? 

Put your foot down, she has to understand how her statement made you feel both in adequate and insecure. Just as some men make women feel they value them only for sex, some women make men feel like an ATM.

Stop the games, you are married, line it or end it.


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

reborngoat said:


> She is basically going to couple's counseling against her will (her words) because she feels that it's pointless to try to fix a relationship made from two broken people. I suspect that her stubborn preconceived notions will prevent it from being helpful for us, but I'm still willing to give it a shot.


*All* relationships are between two broken people. Whether she stays or goes, neither of you can change that. 

It _may _be more pain and suffering to work things out, but I really doubt it. Most likely, you will both bring your issues into your next relationship, with someone else's baggage to discover and deal with. 

If things aren't too far gone, I think the pain could be worth the gain. What are you willing to do?


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

reborngoat said:


> When I pointed out that it was her idea, and that I would have never looked elsewhere had she not suggested it, she got very defensive and said that she was very clear that she wasn't -looking- for a new man, but that she wanted to know that if some time in the future she met one, and wanted to pursue a relationship, that she would be able to because she wouldn't be bound to me. She was upset that I was actively looking to replace her, while she was just hoping that some day her prince charming would show up and save her from her miserable life (that prince charming bit is my own words, not hers, but that's the impression she gave me).
> 
> As far as the basement move, it's just better this way (she's still breast feeding our son whose room is upstairs) .. and truthfully, I kinda like my new room in the basement



From what you are describing, it is better not to even pursue reconciliation. Just keep living your single life and learn to find fulfillment there.

At this point, she does not understand and is too selfish to look at her own actions. She is only looking for the best outcome for herself.

If things work out with prince charming, she will be gone. No point in working and waiting for someone who with that mindset, they are already almost out the door. You are insurance my man.

I would honestly keep dating. You are separated and the marriage is just paper work. I would date for fun, casual dating. Not like you can trust her to stay faithful to you. She already admitted if she falls in love, she is gone.

Detach and keep working towards that emotional independence. When things are likely to end,it will be easier to transition. The more attach you are to her, the more it will hurt. By detaching slowly now, it limits that pain.

If she wants the marriage to work, then let her be the one to ask for reconciliation. Let her close the marriage to work on it, and let her set up the appointments and show that she is serious. Even then, be careful about recommitting to her. People do not change that fast.

Still, work on your relationship skills. Whether with your wife or someone else, you want the knowledge to make a relationship last with someone who is worth working hard for.

Looking for a relationship at this moment will only make your life more complicated. If you are looking for sex and fun, casual dating is the way to go or look for a fvck buddy. I had one after my break-up and it was fun and help scratch that itch.

I have a view when someone ends a relationship, then you are a free agent.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

This appears to be a Mexican standoff. There is a problem in the marriage, neither of you are really taking any responsibility and both being immature the best solution you guys can come up with is to have A with other people or contemplate such.

Your wife is blaming you for everything (though it takes two to tango) and is probably waiting for you to do something, she is pushing you by saying you should sort yourselves out etc, I don't feel she wants to leave you but probably wants you to fight for her (which you haven't done) instead you went in the opposite direction and got with someone else, she probably did not expect that.
You both have to stop the games if you want this marriage to survive, take control, sit her down and ask, does she want the marriage or not, no more games. If not, then proceed with divorce.
If yes then
1. stop all the separation talk, marriages cannot be repaired while spouses are separated
2. No more online activity with OM or OW, she cannot have contact (except for work) with OM either
3. Seek a MC and go asap and stick with it for at least 3-6 months
4. Think long and hard about why you got together in the first place, both of you let this marraige die, now both of you have to mend it together
5. Remember running away (into the arms of others) may give temporary relief but you have young kids to think of and you are messing with their futures so have to give this all you got, no more games
6. Be honest and truthful with each other.
7. Set a deadline, say one year to work on things, then decide what should come next


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Yep, she's a cake eater and didn't want you until someone else did.

You are a doormat.

There's no marriage here. Give it a shot for the kids if you want but she wanted a separation to date others and it backfired on her. I'd keep my commitment and follow through ont He date and separation. 

Give her lots and lots of space she wanted.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Marc878 said:


> Yep, she's a cake eater and didn't want you until someone else did.
> 
> You are a doormat.
> 
> ...


Here's the interesting thing. If you stand strong on this and start living your life as a vigorous male, her reaction may surprise you.

Don't count on it.

But, be ready if it does.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

marduk said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly.


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## justastatistic (May 16, 2014)

reborngoat said:


> When I pointed out that it was her idea, and that I would have never looked elsewhere had she not suggested it, she got very defensive and said that she was very clear that she wasn't -looking- for a new man, but that she wanted to know that if some time in the future she met one, and wanted to pursue a relationship, that she would be able to because she wouldn't be bound to me.


This statement actually means that she is looking for a new man. Just because she hasn't created a profile on a dating site doesn't mean she isn't looking. Leaving oneself open to the possibility of a new relationship while you are still married is the same thing, just a little less actively. She just doesn't want you to find someone first, because that would mean the current situation is at least partly her fault. After all, if someone else wants you then you can't be all bad, right? 

If she doesn't want to actively try to fix the marriage, you might as well stop wasting time and divorce so you each can find someone new. Right now, she wants a separation so she can find someone better, but she isn't sure she CAN find someone better so she keeps you on the hook. Once she does, she will be asking for a divorce and/or cheating.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Thank you all for your insights, it's interesting to see how different people process the same information. Today, without my knowledge, my wife called up the couple's counsellor and made an urgent request to move our appointment to a sooner date. It was originally slated for a month from now, but she said that she felt like if we had to wait that long that there wouldn't be anything left to save. I find myself wondering if this signifies a change of heart on her side. I had previously felt like she was just going to go through the motions in order to wash her hands and say "see? I tried, it failed because of you!". 

I'm starting to feel like maybe her original plan, the reason she said she'd be willing to see other people, was to try to shake me into fixing myself for her - since she has always insisted that my problems and deficiencies are the root cause of all of our marriage trouble. She knew, or thought she knew, that I would sit at home pining for her and waiting for her to sort herself out, do what she needed to do, and come back to me. She figured I'd sit here sad and patient, but when she realized that I was willing and able to go out and find someone new it completely broke her plan. 

On one hand, I feel like I owe it to her and to the kids to give it another chance. Despite how miserable we've both been for the last few years, if we can find a way to meet in the middle on our problems maybe we can build something new and stronger than ever. Maybe that's just a dreamer's hope though. I'm not sure how we can ever trust each other again after this. I mean, in the biblical sense neither one of us has actually cheated, but on an emotional/mental level we have. I know that if I were in a situation where I could have sex with the new woman, I wouldn't be able to resist. Hell I wouldn't want to resist. I also suspect that if my wife were in a similar situation with a guy that 'gets her juices flowing' so to speak, that she'd do it too. But maybe, just maybe, we could find a middle ground that we can come back together in. 

We were talking a few weeks ago, my wife and I. She made a pretty fantastic analogy. Living in a sexless and loveless marriage is like desperately wanting a glass of milk but there's none in the fridge and you aren't allowed to go out and get more. At first, you just sit around wishing you had milk. Then, after a while, you start to panic and look for milk in places that don't make sense, like the cupboards and under the bed and such. But after a while, you start to actually convince yourself that maybe you didn't want milk after all.. maybe you don't even like milk. Water's fine, no need for milk at all. Then, one day (the separation), you realize that you can just open the front door - and the whole damn world is full of milk. Suddenly it all comes back to you, you leave the haze and scream at the top of your lungs "I love milk! I forgot how much I love milk!" and you want to drink it and cook with it and use it for the whole manner of wonderful things that milk makes better. 

So my dilemma now is.. do I want to go out and have the nice cold glass of milk that I've been denied for so long? or would I rather put the hard work in, clear some space in the fridge at home, and maybe one day we can go out and hit up the grocery store together...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'd simply tell her you aren't interested in being a different person and your even less interested in being miserable, sexless and loveless. So if she thinks counseling is going to make you accepting of anything close to that, she can keep it herself. And yeah I'd still go have that milk; and not be secretive about it at all. If she wants you she can get in line and compete.


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## Jane139 (Jan 6, 2015)

She is asking for too much, but you are jumpimg into the idea of another woman far too quickly as well. Even if you divorce, you should not be thinking about new relationships for a while, it just is not a good idea. Amd especially not if you are still in counseling in an effort to repair your marriage. 

You need to either file for divorce, or put all of your efforts into reconciling.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Yeah I probably am jumping in too quickly, I probably looked too soon. At the same time I really wasn't expecting to find anyone so quickly either, certainly not someone like this new woman. I've been extremely surprised, we have so much in common that it blows my mind. I haven't felt like this in a very, very long time - and I don't want to waste what could be a great chance to get to know someone who's on the same page as me. It's incredibly hard to decide, because on the one hand I have 11 years of history and two children with my wife, even though the last few have been miserable.. on the other hand, the new woman and I have no history at all, and might not even amount to anything - but it's been so many years since I felt this excited and infused with raw sexual energy. I have been denying my own sexual appetite for so long, pretending I didn't like milk so to speak - since my wife wouldn't have sex with me. 

Related to filing for divorce, we're in Canada so the law dictates a 1 year separation before we are allowed to file for divorce unless there's adultery or abuse. As I mentioned above, no matter what we're sort of obligated to stay in the same house for at least 3 years due to mortgage penalties and such. I mean, we could just take the loss but then we'd both be in huge debt for years and in the end the kids are the ones that would suffer since both mom and dad would be penniless for years.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"She said that she wanted the option, in the future, if she met someone who made her feel good, that she could go out with them and not feel like she's doing something wrong because she's obligated to me. She says she's mad at me because while she was saying 'maybe one day I'd like to' and I said 'I'd like to try now'."

This is one of the most illogical pieces of non-sense I have ever heard.

It is a flimsy falsehood....and you need to call her out on this bullsh*t explanation.

If there is going to be any chance for R, she has to be honest about what she was really up to with this.

Either she is a total cake-eater, selfish to the extreme.....and if this is indeed what you are dealing with, I would do everything possible to verify just how far down the rabbit-hole she did go before the fact that her Plan B was moving on shocked her into angrily putting an end to dating outside the M (do not assume that she didn't go there...you do not really know any details about how many and who exactly these guys really are....the one you saw messages to might not even have been her 'main' OM because without the details you don't know what she was really up to).

The other option is she was completely bluffing looking to get a reaction from you to chase her....in which case you quickly called that bluff by moving to the dating site so fast.....if this was what she was trying to do, it was an exceptionally stupid and dangerous deception to use to try and manipulate you, and it backfired.

In all honesty....the first scenario is far more likely than the second. Few people are foolish enough to try so dangerous a bluff as the second case.....because it obviously could backfire like this.

As a result, my gut inclination is to say she was trying to cake-eat with you as a safe Plan B.

In either case, she opened this can of worms...and her anger at you is completely hypocritical.

And total honesty about this entire episode, from intentions to what she actually has done, is a must if you are going to fix the M.

In addition, honesty has to be reciprocal here....you told her the truth and the details about the dating site and what was going on......she needs to do the same with what is truly going on with her.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Well we've had a counselling session since the last time I posted, largely it just ended up as both of us venting - but sometimes that's nice to do with a referee to keep you from interrupting each other or getting too angry to have a good discussion. Over the next couple days, we had a few decent conversations about where we're at and where we're going, and we've come to a much more clearly defined state, I think. We've agreed that we can each date others if we want, and that we understand that the other person isn't doing it to hurt us - seeing as we were both unhappy in our marriage for different reasons, we're free to see if those things could maybe be better with someone else. I suspect it'll hurt us at first, but the sense sort of being like the old proverb about setting free the things you love. If they come back, they're yours forever and if they don't they never were. Kinda a weird state to be, but we really both were unhappy in the marriage before. The tragedy is that if we had gotten on the same page, we could have made each other happy - but there's been so much bad for so long that maybe we do both just need a break to see if we can find that page so to speak. 

The door on reconciliation isn't closed, but we're moving towards the idea that if it happens it's not going to be soon. Since we're going to be living together for the long term due to the kids and mortgage and such, if some day in the future we fall back in love then so be it. We'll keep attending counselling for the time being to work on general relationship skills and adjusting to being separate, and we'll each be attending our own counselling to try to sort out the problems that got us here in the first place. Who knows, maybe in time we will fall back in love.

So.. I've asked the new woman to go out some time. I'm a bit hesitant still because I don't want to hurt my wife (despite our differences, we've been together 11 years, she's the mother of my kids, and I care about how she feels), but we've agreed to be as respectful and discreet as we can to minimize that sort of thing. I know it will still hurt though, for both of us, but I know (and my wife knows) that we're not doing it for that purpose. Also, nobody is allowed to bring anyone home (obviously).


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

How very French of you.

I would have thanked her for moving up your apt. I think she wanted the marriage to work and you are blowing it.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...t-fell-back-love-saving-16-year-marriage.html


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

How very.. French? I'm not sure I follow (although I actually am French by blood, so you have me curious as to what you mean). 

On some level I think we both want it to work in the long term, but the rift is wide and we both have our own stuff to deal with. There's more to it (as there always is) than can be explained in a few disconnected paragraphs on a forum. 

If you love something set it free... Old saying, but we're giving it a try to see if maybe distance really can make the heart grow fonder.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

reborngoat said:


> Thank you all for your insights, it's interesting to see how different people process the same information. Today, without my knowledge, my wife called up the couple's counsellor and made an urgent request to move our appointment to a sooner date. It was originally slated for a month from now, but she said that she felt like if we had to wait that long that there wouldn't be anything left to save. I find myself wondering if this signifies a change of heart on her side. I had previously felt like she was just going to go through the motions in order to wash her hands and say "see? I tried, it failed because of you!".
> 
> *I'm starting to feel like maybe her original plan, the reason she said she'd be willing to see other people, was to try to shake me into fixing myself for her - since she has always insisted that my problems and deficiencies are the root cause of all of our marriage trouble. She knew, or thought she knew, that I would sit at home pining for her and waiting for her to sort herself out, do what she needed to do, and come back to me. She figured I'd sit here sad and patient, but when she realized that I was willing and able to go out and find someone new it completely broke her plan. *
> 
> ...


May I offer an unpopular opinion. Perhaps you are more insightful than you realize as the bolded above would indicate. Perhaps in her desperation to force your hand she played a very risky card. In so doing she perhaps hoped it would "jolt" you into realizing that the marriage was indeed in trouble and you would work more diligently on it. Hence the sudden urgency to see the counselor sooner.

Instead your efforts were focused on a dating site. I believe that perhaps it is you that really wants out of the marriage. Your proclamation that you would have never done what you did if she hadn't asked for separation is somewhat hollow in light of your response to it. She played a risky card and it went the other way perhaps making her face the reality that you really do want out.

May I add one thing to your wife's analogy by saying that the reason the milk is not in the fridge is because it is still in the cow. Neither of you two, perhaps you especially, are willing to put forth the effort to milk the cow. The cow is there, waiting to be milked but it isn't happening. You both seem to think that by going out and finding prepackaged milk you will both be happy but I posit that the work it took someone to get the milk from the cow into the nice, convenient container will still need to be put forth by someone once the new container is empty.

You have met this woman online and, partly due to your starved condition emotionally and physically, you see her as a godsend when, in fact, she is just as flawed as we all are. The difference is you have not made a vow to her and have not brought children into the world with her, to whom you have responsibility by the way.

So then, a trial separation wherein you both live in the same house and are free to see other people...Do you really see this as working out well? You have stated that you two have 11 years together so I would make this recommendation. Try for the next year, with the same diligence that you would put into seeing other people, to see the good and positive in each other. Stay in separate rooms if necessary but communicate online, go on dates and put forth the same persona you would with a stranger. Also, read online of others experience and discover that the grass is not always the same color once there that it appears to be from a distance. Both of you play one last hand and this time both go all in. If, after the year, you are both still unhappy and discontent then D and move on as amicably as possible. What is one more year in the light of a lifetime? Is it not worth it? I would wager your children would say it is. Good fortune to you.


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## Pkwanderer (Aug 3, 2014)

There is no easy solution for your situation. I don't think counselling will help you either. She is just hanging around until she finds someone better. You should not have moved, it should have been the other way round. Also find a good divorce lawyer as this is eventually going to come around for you, so better shake yourself out of the shock that has happened in your life. It's time to move on and sometimes it's good to amputate the limb which has gangrene as in your case.
No point wasting time in looking back and trying to rekindle what is lost, as having read your post, basically she has moved on and so should you. Find someone better and focus on your life. There will be alot of hurt but you are not responsible, so no need to feel guilty. You have given it your best shot, and it hasn't happened, so no regrets. There are alot of good women out there still.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Pkwanderer: Oh, I'm far from free of responsibility. If I painted it that way, then it was just my words being coloured by pain. I've been selfishly denying her the emotional things she needed while blaming her for it, and sometimes I wonder if it was because on some level I really just wasn't feeling it. By the same token though, she was denying me my needs too, and I wonder if it was totally because of my actions (as she claims) or if she really didn't care enough either. It was a long cycle of denial and bitterness, each feeding the other. We've both been failing to meet in the middle for a long time, it's just that she was the one who finally decided that she wanted it to stop. Though she claims she did, I can't be sure either of us really gave it our best shot. I can't help but think that maybe that in itself is telling. If it was right, if it could have been right, we'd have both been more motivated to do it up in the first place. 

NoChoice: I'm honestly not sure how it will work out. There's a few parts of me that think it could really be positive in the long run, helping us both to find what might have been lacking (even if it means we end up staying apart) - or to maybe see that what we had is really what we wanted all along anyhow. There's a certain amount of selfishness on both sides here, I think, in the sense that we've both been starved of our respective needs for so long that we aren't sure if a) the other person CAN give us what we need, and b) we even want them to any more. I can't truly speak to my wife's motivations, aside from what she has said to me, but I know as well that the temptation is extremely strong in me to see if a satisfying sex life can actually be something I can find. I'm 35 years old and my wife is the only woman I've ever had sex with, and I've always felt like our drives didn't match up (I wanted it way way more than her). Whenever we did it, I always showed up and gave it 110% effort (going down on her, putting tremendous effort into making it as good for her as possible), but I never felt that she returned even a fraction of that effort. I always felt like it was just lacking something. Selfishness, perhaps a bit petty, but I feel like even if we somehow end up together after a period of separation, this .. could be my last chance to ever see what it could be like with someone else. I know though, that it will hurt on both sides to know it's happening. I know it'll be a barb in my heart when she dates other men, and I suspect she'll be hurt when I date other women. Whether that pain will lead to introspection and realization of our true needs is the real question.

I wonder if the cow is actually milkable any more, to run with that analogy even further. Perhaps it's gone dry, and maybe some time and space and a bit of time in the pasture could give it time to refill. 

I don't know, and I suspect there's no way to know.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

reborngoat said:


> Pkwanderer: Oh, I'm far from free of responsibility. If I painted it that way, then it was just my words being coloured by pain. I've been selfishly denying her the emotional things she needed while blaming her for it, and sometimes I wonder if it was because on some level I really just wasn't feeling it. By the same token though, she was denying me my needs too, and I wonder if it was totally because of my actions (as she claims) or if she really didn't care enough either. It was a long cycle of denial and bitterness, each feeding the other. We've both been failing to meet in the middle for a long time, it's just that she was the one who finally decided that she wanted it to stop. Though she claims she did, I can't be sure either of us really gave it our best shot. I can't help but think that maybe that in itself is telling. If it was right, if it could have been right, we'd have both been more motivated to do it up in the first place.
> 
> NoChoice: I'm honestly not sure how it will work out. There's a few parts of me that think it could really be positive in the long run, helping us both to find what might have been lacking (even if it means we end up staying apart) - or to maybe see that what we had is really what we wanted all along anyhow. There's a certain amount of selfishness on both sides here, I think, in the sense that we've both been starved of our respective needs for so long that we aren't sure if a) the other person CAN give us what we need, and b) we even want them to any more. I can't truly speak to my wife's motivations, aside from what she has said to me, but I know as well that the temptation is extremely strong in me to see if a satisfying sex life can actually be something I can find. I'm 35 years old and my wife is the only woman I've ever had sex with, and I've always felt like our drives didn't match up (I wanted it way way more than her). Whenever we did it, I always showed up and gave it 110% effort (going down on her, putting tremendous effort into making it as good for her as possible), but I never felt that she returned even a fraction of that effort. I always felt like it was just lacking something. Selfishness, perhaps a bit petty, but I feel like even if we somehow end up together after a period of separation, this .. could be my last chance to ever see what it could be like with someone else. I know though, that it will hurt on both sides to know it's happening. I know it'll be a barb in my heart when she dates other men, and I suspect she'll be hurt when I date other women. Whether that pain will lead to introspection and realization of our true needs is the real question.
> 
> ...


It would seem that your mind is made up and that this other woman is in for quite a ride. I do not know the nuances of your relationship and therefore cannot with any high probability of accuracy say what is or isn't possible or what may or may not ultimately work. I do agree that selfishness plays a part, perhaps a large part, in both your stances. The ones I feel for are the children. I doubt they are concerned about what it would be like for you to have intercourse with another woman but it is affecting their lives. I do know it is no doubt more complicated than just that but that seems to be a significant piece of this puzzle. Also, I fail to see how an in house separation relieves either of you from your marital vows and what will it say about the character of any one who chooses to engage with a married person?

I will repeat a quote that I am fond of using. If someone wants to do something badly enough they will find a way if not, they will find an excuse. Good fortune to you.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Don't stop seeing others until your wife says seeing others is off the table for her.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Don't stop seeing others until your wife says seeing others is off the table for her.


I feel like this is important too, but since she stalwartly refused to relinquish the right to do so I suspect that it won't happen like that.

Just the same, I don't want it to seem like I'm just doing it out of spite, or out of some vengeful place in my heart. While my reasons are most certainly selfish, they aren't motivated by anger or revenge. It's not like I'm saying "Fine, you want to see other people? Then I will too!". At first, maybe I did join the dating site for reasons like that.. but it's no longer like that in my mind. 

NoChoice: I definitely see your points, and a lot of them have been through my mind too. At least at present, the kids aren't actually suffering at all for it. They are both too young to understand even a fraction of the issues at hand, and my wife and I have agreed to make sure that they come first regardless of where we're at or what we're doing, including never wasting time that could be spent with the kids on a date/etc. With regards to the marital vows, to some extent I agree, it's weird at best - but there's a lot of precedent for separated spouses remaining living together but seeing other people. Aside from a piece of paper, there's really nothing to stop two married people from agreeing to live like this; and as to the character of someone who would enter into that relationship, it's hard to say really. If the spouses in question agree that it's something that they are allowing, and if the person entering into that is aware of the situation and the living arrangements and such, then I don't see it as necessarily a negative thing in terms of their character. It's not the same thing as knowingly helping a married person cheat, it's sort of a weird grey area since yes, on paper we are still married.. but we've agreed to absolve each other of our vows for purposes of this. Neither my wife nor I are religious, so there's no sense of being judged by a higher power or anything of that sort.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

This will not work IMO.

Both of you will carry resentments for going out and screwing around with other people.

Either fix your M....or work for a peaceful and fair end of your M.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

An update, things have gotten worse and better at the same time. 

I had mentioned before that there was a dude from out of town that my wife has been talking to online since at least when we separated, and likely before. She insisted up and down that they were just friends, and that I was being paranoid, but my instinct was screaming at me that it was more. She swore that although she wanted to see other people that he was not one of them and would never be. 

Yesterday we had to come to my home town for a funeral (the city that the other dude lives in). I was going to be staying here for the weekend and she said she was gonna go shopping and then drive home. Later that evening, I went out for dinner with one of my buddies, and through the craziest twist of fate, we look up and there's my wife walking in with that guy. 

I have never in my life felt so betrayed. Not because she was on a date, I could have handled that better if it was some random dude.. I have been planning to date too, after all. It hurt because she lied to my face, and it was the one person she had so adamantly insisted was only a friend (even though I had read her messages to him and I felt otherwise). I KNEW IT, but I let her convince me otherwise. I wanted so badly to believe that I ignored my heart, and now I feel like I can never trust her again. It calls into question everything over the last years. 

On one hand it's the most painful thing I have ever felt. On the other hand I feel like it frees me to move on with my life and other relationships without needing to be concerned about how it makes her feel. I don't think there is anything else she can do that will cut me deeper than the moment yesterday when I looked up and made eye contact with the two of them.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

reborngoat said:


> An update, things have gotten worse and better at the same time.
> 
> I had mentioned before that there was a dude from out of town that my wife has been talking to online since at least when we separated, and likely before. She insisted up and down that they were just friends, and that I was being paranoid, but my instinct was screaming at me that it was more. She swore that although she wanted to see other people that he was not one of them and would never be.
> 
> ...


Cheaters cheat and lie; that's what they do.
You are married to a cheater.
Although I'm sure it doesn't feel like it, she has done you a great favor by making this perfectly clear.
Take that gift and use it wisely.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

reborngoat said:


> An update, things have gotten worse and better at the same time.
> 
> I had mentioned before that there was a dude from out of town that my wife has been talking to online since at least when we separated, and likely before. She insisted up and down that they were just friends, and that I was being paranoid, but my instinct was screaming at me that it was more. She swore that although she wanted to see other people that he was not one of them and would never be.
> 
> ...


Well this is a good thing. Now you know where you've stood all along. You are plan B the doormat. She's been blaming it all on you because that's what cheaters do. So far it's worked well for her. 

Gonna stick around till she dumps you now?

If I were you I'd go full steam ahead with separation and divorce. The reason she doesn't want sex with you is because she belongs to the other guy and is figuring out how to get rid of you.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Just tossing an update (I'm not sure if this is a legit use of the forum, I'm sort of half-ass using this as a journal of my situation now). I have officially made a date with the new woman, in light of the newfound proof that my wife had likely been sneaking around at least as long as I thought she had. In two nights, I'll be going out with her - and I'm seriously nervous about it. For all the normal reasons (I haven't been on a date in over a decade, plus the normal first-date jitters), but I'm also supremely nervous about the moment where I come out of the shower all dressed up and ready to roll, and I have to walk past my wife on the way out with both of us knowing exactly what's happening. It's weird, because after last week's events I shouldn't even care how she feels about it - but I can't shake the feeling that it's going to be an extremely tense moment. I'm not sure if she'll want to fight, or if she'll cold shoulder it. If she tries to fight, I know I have to do my best to simply not engage - I will not have her ruin the night for me in advance. The cold shoulder is likely easier to deal with, but no matter what we'll both be hurting a bit I think. 

I wish that I could just be bitter and spiteful, so I could just feel like 'she deserves it, she did it first, screw her'.. but I'm simply not wired like that. Maybe that's a weakness in me, that I care too much about the feelings of someone who doesn't feel the same way. Still, I'd rather care too much than not at all - hollowness is a terrible thing.


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## lifecolorful (Oct 5, 2015)

Bibi nailed it. 

Your wife already set up the game to cheat by stating she wants to have no-strings attached sex during your separartion, but is strings suddenly appear she then wants a divorce. 

She's being insanely selfish. She basically is saying, "Hey, I'm too scared to be alone, so I'm gunna keep you on the side, in your basement room (why isn't she in the basement?), until I find a substantial sex partner I can leave you for."

You've both checked out, but you're both to scared for big change. Big change is the only thing that will make you happy and protect your kids from the strain between you and your wife. Big change includes selling the house and moving apart from one another. 

To be happy you have to take risks. Get out of the basement, get out from under each other. Maybe in the future you can get back together?


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

lifecolorful said:


> Bibi nailed it.
> 
> Your wife already set up the game to cheat by stating she wants to have no-strings attached sex during your separartion, but is strings suddenly appear she then wants a divorce.
> 
> ...


Believe me I wish we could do that. I feel like that's the only way to find lasting peace between us. The problem right now is our mortgage is too new, and if we sell the house we have to pay a huge penalty so we'd lose a load of money. Our last house we did a lot of work on, made profit on, and were able to turn that into a nice down payment on this one - but all of that investment plus more would simply evaporate if we sell. I don't mind the basement apartment though, in all honesty, other than when I'm on night shift and I have to sleep down there while the kids play in the next room.

What's really messed up is that even after all of this, I can't totally rule out the idea of maybe some day getting back together. Right now I'm so mad at her, and I don't know how I can ever trust her again.. but I also can't completely exclude the idea that maybe in a few years, after we've both had some time apart we might think "wow, we really had a good thing back there that we threw away.. let's give it another shot".

It's really screwed up, like Stockholm syndrome or something. Maybe it's just a resistance to the idea of letting go, or maybe deep down there's still something there but it's so covered in anger and bitterness that it can't shine yet.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Well, these recent updates confirmed what I thought she was doing all along......cake-eating.

What did she have to say after you busted her with this scumbag.......the guy who supposedly she had zero interest in?

If she said anything other than she had been deceiving you the entire time about him and that she was planning to have sex with him as soon as you signed on to the 'open' separation, she is still lying.

In fact, I would bet that any investigation on your part would reveal that she was already cheating with this POS before she ever asked you for the separation.

Just approach your WW and tell her you have no interest in anything but a D now.....screw the separation.

She has just revealed to you what a dishonest and selfish person she truly is.....and no sane person would want to spend 5 minutes in a relationship with a deceptive traitor like her.

Tell her that it is over, and she is permanently in your rear-view mirror.....no R in the future.

Then call up both your families and all friends and inform them of your decision to D and what she has done to bring you to that decision.

You are well rid of her.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Oh...and then go out and enjoy seeing the new woman you have met.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Dyokemm said:


> Well, these recent updates confirmed what I thought she was doing all along......cake-eating.
> 
> What did she have to say after you busted her with this scumbag.......the guy who supposedly she had zero interest in?
> 
> If she said anything other than she had been deceiving you the entire time about him and that she was planning to have sex with him as soon as you signed on to the 'open' separation, she is still lying.


We didn't talk at that moment, she saw me sitting in the restaurant and they decided to eat elsewhere. I texted her something along the lines of "have a nice night" and then when she was finally heading home near midnight she called me. She still claimed that they are just friends and that she has no desire to have a relationship with him. She even went so far as to say that it was no different than me going out with my (male) friend for dinner that night (which is pretty ridiculous IMO). I straight up asked her if they slept together and she said no, but I don't believe her..

Quite frankly, I have realized that whoever she is... Is not the same woman I fell in love with and married. Whoever she's become, he's welcome to her.. and she's welcome to date and bang whoever she desires. 

So am I, though.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

I sure would be. That had to be a delimitation get moment.

But now you know so ......


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Marc878 said:


> I sure would be. That had to be a delimitation get moment.
> 
> But now you know so ......


Yep.....totally exposed the entire pack of lies she was trying to sell OP from the moment she asked for the separation with the option of screwing other men 'if she felt' it was the right moment.

The right moment always was going to be as fast as she possibly could....but she didn't want to admit it...in fact, she still doesn't, that's why she's still lying to him about the 'chance' encounter and her intentions.

It's also why she got so upset at him going on the dating site....she wanted a complaisant and emotionally desperate Plan B waiting in the wings while she tried out her little fling.

But OP didn't co-operate.

And now this lucky (for OP) chance has exposed the truth.

OP....I really think you should immediately expose the A to friends/family and file for D ASAP here....and then do the 180 and only speak to her about D proceedings, kids, and absolute necessities.

If you do want any chance of saving your M, I think showing her in no uncertain terms that you are not accepting any more of her crap and she is about to lose her M and family as she knows them, is your ONLY chance for R at this point.

And if you are just done, these are the same steps you have to go through to fee yourself from this cheater anyway.

No more of this separation bullsh*t......that only serves her cake-eating agenda.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

So this morning, my wife told me that in the last couple days she also put herself on a dating site. The interesting thing is that it didn't bother me at all. It seems I was right, she hurt me so badly by meeting with the other dude that doing this now doesn't even hurt. Unless she tries really hard, I doubt there's anything she can do now to hurt me again.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

So it's been a bit over a week since I last posted, and the whole situation keeps evolving. I went on a date with the other woman, and had a really good time. When I dropped her off she kissed me, in a way that my wife hadn't in a long time, and there were fireworks inside of me. 

Then I went home and I thought about it a lot over the next day. I realized that all this date had succeeded in doing was making me miss my wife 

I realized that I did have a good time, and that I was feeling all these wonderful romantic feelings I hadn't had in so long.. but what I really wanted was to find those feelings with my wife again. She and I have had a few long talks and another session of counseling since then, and we both have realized that dating others in any form is no good for our situation. We both want to make it work in the long term, both for us and for the kids, and dating others just means we'll keep hurting each other instead of starting to heal. Kudos to the people in this thread that tried to talk me out of it, by the way, though I think it was probably a good thing that I went on that date: it served as a powerful indicator for me to realize what it was I really needed.

She has broken off contact with the other man, and with the dudes from the dating site - and I have broken off contact with the other woman. We've promised to each other that we will not date nor have sex with anyone else for the time being, and we're planning to spend a few months still living in separate rooms before we decide if we're ready to start truly being together again to work on things. We both have a lot of our own issues at play, things that interfere with the ability to create a strong relationship with each other - so we're both going to work on those things in the meantime. I know that it's going to be a long hard road to recover the trust and love that has been lost, but I realize now that I was (and really we both were) taking the easy way out by looking to others to fill the void. I'm still not certain, but I'm beginning to think that I might have been wrong about her intentions with the other guy - she still insists that they are just friends and she didn't want to tell me because she knew I'd take it the wrong way. I can't be sure, but I do know that she has promised that there will be no more of that - and I believe her. 

In an interesting development as well, since that decision, she and I have had more and better sex over a week than we had in the previous 6 months or more. It's strange in a way, because when we're done we just sort of say goodnight and she goes back to her bedroom alone.. but it's definitely a positive thing for us, in the sense that very few things are as good for building goodwill between a man and a woman as getting each other off  I know that we've got a long long way to go, but I also know that we're starting to bond again - and in a weird sense, it's almost like we're young and dating again - we get together, do whatever, have sex, kiss goodnight, then go 'home' to our own rooms. I also think this is helpful because if she and I are having regular sex, I don't have to worry as much that she's looking to get her needs taken care of elsewhere, and I don't feel so sex-starved that I am compelled to look elsewhere myself.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

It would appear that she couldn't take it when the shoe was on the other foot.

Remember her replacement is just around the corner. 

If it doesn't work out move on fast. Why waste your life?


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Marc878 said:


> It would appear that she couldn't take it when the shoe was on the other foot.
> 
> Remember her replacement is just around the corner.
> 
> If it doesn't work out move on fast. Why waste your life?


Yeah dude, it's already starting to seem that way. We had a great week, then it was back to fighting and her telling me to give her space. 

Our counselor suggested we set a date, a timeframe of about 6 weeks during which we don't date others and at the same time give each other as much space as we can. We've decided to aim for the 1st of December, after which she'll decide if she really wants to work on it or if we're going to go our separate ways. Every day that passes though, I feel more certain that we're going to divorce. We can't go two days without fighting. Every day that passes I notice more of her sneaky behaviour, more of her secrets and the walls she's building between us. 

As much fun as it was to have that week of great sex (after such a long time of virtually none), I can't help but feel that I was just serving as a toy for when her vibrator wasn't good enough. That wouldn't have bothered me before, really, but now.. it's weird, I almost feel used (even though it was good for me too). 

I'm getting so sick of her back-and-forth. "Get away, I want space. No wait, come here and hug me, kiss me, screw me, love me, NOW GET AWAY I NEED SPACE!"

A younger me would have loved the chance to have the sex without the attachment, but this is my wife and I'm too old for that crap. I want the whole package, and if she's not down for that then I'm not down to stick around waiting for her to realize what she's giving up. I'm worth more than that.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

All you can do is reinforce the last chance and then move on or you'll just waste life you can't get back. Next time I'd go 180 full out and get over this limbo crap. If it comes to that 

Most people just don't change but good luck anyway.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Sounds like she ran back to the M because her Plan B (you) was about ready to sail off into the sunset and she didn't have her boytoy nailed down as a sure option yet.

Marc was right...she couldn't stand the shoe being on the other foot...but mainly because she wasn't sure her POS bf would be willing to get serious and cushion her exit.

I still don't buy the 'chance' meet up with this scumbag...too da*n convenient.

I still think this whole 'separation' crap started because she was going to go off and see if she could get this POS to commit....and your unwillingness to sit quiet as a devastated and begging back-up plan scuttled her plans right off the bat.

Chances are you would discover if you searched that there is a whole lot more to her interactions with POSOM....EA for sure, and possible PA especially after the meet-up.

But he was not ready or willing to be her KISA, so she scurried back to keep you from leaving....the fact that you actually went on a date probably panicked her.

But after this past week, she now thinks she has you complacent and committed again.....and now her resentment that you crushed her plan to slowly reel POSOM in during the 'separation' is coming out.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Dyokemm said:


> Sounds like she ran back to the M because her Plan B (you) was about ready to sail off into the sunset and she didn't have her boytoy nailed down as a sure option yet.
> 
> Marc was right...she couldn't stand the shoe being on the other foot...but mainly because she wasn't sure her POS bf would be willing to get serious and cushion her exit.
> 
> ...


I'm inclined to agree with a lot of that. I'm tempted to hack her computer and cell phone to see if she has still been contacting him, though she says she told him she couldn't any more. I won't though, it's a violation of her personal space and trust, and it's likely to just make me more angry and hurt anyhow without actually helping anything. 

I'm willing to give it 6 more weeks. Maybe after this time, after she has to live without any comfort or benefit from me (besides keeping the roof over her head), she might realize what she'd be giving up if she doesn't try. After all, we've been together 11 years - what's another month and a half? I've told her though, in no uncertain terms, that if we reach December 1 after I give her all the 'space' she 'needs', and she still isn't willing to keep her vows and be my wife and work on our problems together - then we are divorcing for sure. I've started contacting lawyers and bankers and such, just in case, to be sure that she can't screw me over too badly when the time comes.

I strongly believe that you shouldn't throw away people.. and even though she's treated me like **** for the last few months, and we were both pretty bad to each other for a long time before that, I still am unwilling to simply discard her without a final chance.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Yet another update.

A couple days ago (actually the same day as my last post, only later in the afternoon), I was sitting at home with the kids, and my wife was out for the afternoon. Our son (a bit over a year old) came in with my wife's iPad, and was messing around with it in my room. No big deal, both kids play with it all the time (it's amazing how well even a baby can operate it, although he's pretty random about what he can accomplish..). Anyhow, after a little while of that he starts saying "mama.. mama" and I look down to see that he's opened her email and there's a picture on screen.. a picture of my wife's face and shoulder, possibly naked or possibly wearing a tank top, in our bed, in an email to another man and dated about 6 days ago; long after we both promised to stop dating / flirting / pursuing romantic interests. I can only imagine the context of whatever text/chat she was involved in with this man that she felt compelled to send a "this is what I look like in bed right now" picture. Then, yesterday, she went out for the afternoon and came back heavily doused in perfume (which she normally doesn't even wear), and was acting weird all day afterwards. I know that I'm normally bad about jumping to conclusions, and I am trying to keep an open mind, but this whole situation sort of points me towards a certain obviousness. 

I decided enough is enough, and I wrote her an email - which I sat on for two days, and finally sent to her this morning before I left for work, after tweaking the phrasing a hundred times. She hasn't yet replied in any fashion, but she's got her phone in her hand 24/7 so I'm sure she's seen it. I'm going to post it here for people's thoughts (with names removed).

Dear <wife>;

I've been struggling with whether or not I should send this email to you, but I know that if I don't it will just fester and make me angrier and angrier - and I'm so very done with being angry at you.

This past Monday (Oct.26) as I was sitting playing on the computer, <our son> comes in with the iPad and plops it down on the bed. He plays with it a bit, and then starts saying 'Mama, Mama'. I look up from my game, and there on the screen is a picture of you in our bed, either naked or in bedclothes - in an email to some dude calling himself '<some *********>'. 

A bedroom selfie, specifically directed to another man, and sent on Oct.22 - long past the time we agreed to stop having that sort of interaction with others. A man who, I suspect, you've at least considered meeting - and possibly already have. Maybe even yesterday (Tuesday, Oct.27), which might explain why you were acting so weird when you came home, and why you had inexplicably doused yourself in perfume. I want to believe this isn't the case, but I simply can't be sure. Regardless of whether you've yet met with him or any other man though, the fact of the image still remains. 

I closed it and sat there in silence for a while. I tried to forget what I had seen. I wanted to pretend it was nothing and just choose to trust you, but it's eating at my heart. I can't do that, <wife>. I'm not even angry, in all honesty. I don't think I could fight about it right now if I tried. I'm just sad, disappointed, and utterly tired of feeling misled and deceived.

I don't care what your explanations are, <wife>. I don't care how you justify it, how you met him, who you claim he is or isn't, or whether he's "not relationship material". It doesn't matter any more. What's done is done. You took the picture, you sent the picture; the motivation, context, and whether it was your idea or his are irrelevant. If this is there in the open for our son to find, I can't even imagine how far down the rabbit hole this goes or the extent of the secrets you're keeping hidden on your phone and in your heart. I can only imagine what you're chatting about with this guy late at night that you are compelled to send a "this is what I look like in bed right now" pic. 

I am worth far more than this, <wife>. Our 11 years together are worth more. Keeping our family together is worth more.

I have loved you through everything. Somehow after all of this I still love you and I want very much for you to be happy, but this is the final line in the sand. If this is why you need space, if a secretive life filled with sexy chats and late night bedroom pictures shared with other men is what you need to be happy then I won't interfere. If you are willing to continue this sort of behaviour after we promised to stop, then it speaks volumes about how little you value me. The secrets, lies, and half-truths you're accumulating during this period of space are a cancer that will kill any effort to rebuild our relationship before it starts, even if you eventually decide you are willing to do so.

I promised to give space and time until December 1 so you could make up your mind, and I will hold to that. I therefore refuse to fight about this or even discuss it further for the time being. I do, however, want you to think long and hard about how the actions of the present affect the possibilities of the future. If you're actually serious that you want to be together in the long term and you want there to be any shred of love left to build on then eventually you will have to make a choice. If there's ever going to be a chance to recover, the time will come where you will need to honestly put everything on the table: every secret, lie, and deliberate omission that you are accumulating during this time. You will need to completely cease contact with all other men until you and I are in a good place again or we decide to go our separate ways. If that's not something you are going to be willing to do when the time comes, then you should do me the justice of telling me now. If that's the case, then it's obvious what's really important to you and how little you actually care about my feelings or about being together in the long term. If you prioritize keeping secrets and chatting or spending time with other men over openness, honesty, and repairing our marriage then that is your choice - I won't try to stop you. I will, however, be forced to go and get the process started immediately for our divorce as well as investigate some ways I've found to sell the house without losing our investment. If sneaking around, keeping secrets, and fulfilling your needs through other men are what you choose to do with your time and space, then with all my heart I hope you can find the peace and happiness you need - but I utterly refuse to waste one more second of my life waiting for you to recognize my worth and realize what you're giving up.

With incredible sadness, 
Your husband and lover of 11 years,
<me>


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Good email IMO.

And I think you need to emotionally detach and prepare for the worst.

The sheer accumulation of evidence/red flags suggests that she has been, and still continues to, cheat on you.

And investigation by you would probably reveal it was going on long before the 'separation' speech.

The 'chance' meetup with POSOM#1 (I'm assuming photo boy is a new POSOM) and the weirdness/excessive perfume make me suspect her cheating has now moved into the physical.....it could be that her infidelity was EA only until the time of her separation request....THAT was the point at which she had just started or decided she wanted to take these dalliances PA....she knew that none of her POSOM's was probably going to commit without getting sex from her to seal the deal. 

But all of her actions also suggest that her plan all along has been to carry on these infidelities with you as a safe back-up plan in case none of her POSOM's would commit to her.....this is what you blew up by moving on to dating yourself so fast.....and all of her talk about potential R is to keep you from bolting and leaving her with no Plan B.

However, IMO, she is apparently still determined to pursue these other guys.

She was hoping to be able to do it openly during 'separation' but now knows that plan failed.....and she was faced with two choices.

Either give up her adulterous behavior altogether and commit to working on the M.....OR take her cheating further underground, increasing her sneakiness and deception so you didn't figure out what she was doing.

But now you have discovered that her adulterous behaviors are continuing.

I think your strongest move here, even if you would eventually want to R, is to file the paperwork for D and detach from her completely....only interact on the kids and the D process......and only change course if SHE comes running back to you with remorse and willing to do everything to save the M.

Kick her off the fence immediately.

Staying in this limbo will be nothing but pain and torture for you.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Yeah, you're probably right. I've contacted a divorce mediator, and I'm going to the bank to check into what I need to do to sell the house and not have us lose our investment - that way when we do split, we can at least each take half of the equity and use that to start our new life. I don't mean her ill, and I don't want to screw her over - but this relationship and situation are far too toxic for me to stay in as it stands. It's making me into a terrible person, causing me to think thoughts and do things that I never would have done before.

As much as I want to reconcile, I just cannot live like this - and if she's willing to behave like she is while convincing me that I'm crazy and have trust issues.. I just can't deal with it any more.

Tonight when I get home, I am initiating full silent treatment on all matters other than the essential minimum. We have a counselor appointment together on Saturday which we may or may not go to, at which I may have things to say - and I suspect she will too - but otherwise, I am going to insist that anything she wants to say to me she puts in email so I have a record of it and I will not engage with her if she tries to goad me into fighting.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Good plan.

And don't let yourself be pulled into that fight....be prepared for her to try to do exactly that.

She now knows you have busted her again.....chances are that she will come home and aggressively gaslight and blameshift you....I don't see her humbling herself and admitting how her inappropriate behavior has continued.

And stick to your guns about one other thing you mentioned in your email.

If she does come back admitting fault and asking to R.....make sure you DO make her expose every lie, deception, and secret about what she has really been up to.

Trying to R with a WS who continues to withhold information and be dishonest is futile IMO.

Stay strong.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

The fact that she, yet again, has been caught in deception, and you are still not enacting solid consequences, means she likely thinks your red line has not been crossed.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> The fact that she, yet again, has been caught in deception, and you are still not enacting solid consequences, means she likely thinks your red line has not been crossed.


Yeah, it's just been so hard to pull the trigger. She's very good at convincing me that I'm overreacting and she has legitimate excuses. It's time though to end this crap. Either she puts it all on the table and stops ****ing around, or I'm out.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

reborngoat said:


> Yeah, it's just been so hard to pull the trigger. She's very good at convincing me that I'm overreacting and she has legitimate excuses. It's time though to end this crap. Either she puts it all on the table and stops ****ing around, or I'm out.


Or you will tell her you will leave? Again?

"Stop, or I will tell you to stop again"?

She is not the problem anymore. 

You are.

Be who you say.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Or you will tell her you will leave? Again?
> 
> "Stop, or I will tell you to stop again"?
> 
> ...


A fair point. I've been very hesitant, but enough is enough.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

reborngoat said:


> A fair point. I've been very hesitant, but enough is enough.


Now back it up with action.

It is not what we say in life that matters. It is what we do.


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## survive_to_die (Oct 21, 2015)

I know I'm going to be the voice that goes against the popular opinion here, but when you said you kissed your date and you only thought of only your wife and missing her... man, that's one of my fears if my wife decides to end our separation relationship permanently in divorce and one day I have to move on. I know everyone on here says you eventually find someone else, your spouse finds someone else, etcetera... but as long as that's not what I want, I'm fighting for and waiting for every last ounce of me to be finished. 

Some days I've definitely more tired emotionally. Some days I feel more fed up with indecisiveness. But I know I have a limit that I haven't even come close to. As much as I hurt her and as much as I feel hurt and abandoned, there's a well inside of me I'm just tapping.

Reading through your thread it seems like your wife definitely has some issues that she needs the help of an IC to sort through. I'll go as far as to say that you have a role and responsibility in fulfilling some of those and being the strength that your wife might lack in these issues. Read Connecting through "Yes!" by Jack Ito. I'm not sure a hardline is what your wife needs to mend whatever is missing in her heart.

In response to you wanting your wife and that kiss representing your desire for your wife and not someone to fill her place, I say fight your emotions, struggle until you are on the brink of insanity. Maybe it's too late for us, but as long as there's a chance, I'm not giving up until I'm dead.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Well.. Tonight is the night to end all nights.

I told her she needed to come clean on everything, full transparency, if we were ever to be able to work on it.

She told me that she did, in fact, sleep with the first other man, on the very day that I caught her on her date with him.

She also told me that she's been having cybersex with all kinds of random dudes, and that she just last week slept with a random guy, and she blamed that one on me because I was mad at her the day before.

I told her that I wanted to try to forgive her if she really felt bad and sorry about it.. but even though she said she did, she refused to apologize. 

I cannot do this any more. We are now divorcing for sure. I wrote her another email, explaining my situation and telling her what's up. It's below:

---

Dear <wife>;

I know that I said I would forgive, and that I would not hold your indiscretions against you.. but I just can't do that. These things you have done are simply unforgivable for me. I know now that I can absolutely never be with you again, no matter what you say or promise - you have thrown away the last chance we might have had. 

It could have been recovered after you slept with <first guy>. I could have forgiven just that. You could have come clean, and never done it again - you could have abstained from the cyber sex, and you could have kept from sleeping with <second guy>. Instead, you chose to do that - specifically to retaliate against me for the fact that I was angry at you for being sneaky and deceitful. I hope it was worth it. I hope both times were worth it. I hope having someone talk dirty to you while you played with yourself was worth it.

I loved you, but the woman you've become is a loathsome human being, a pathetic liar, and a cheating *****. You were married, and still are, but you've proven that you lack the moral compass to recognize the importance of vows over personal enjoyment. The very fact that you feel justified in your behaviour proves without a doubt that you don't even deserve my forgiveness. 

One day you are going to realize what you threw away here, what you traded a couple nights of sex and good times for. One day you will recognize that you threw away a man who, with all his faults, loved you dearly. You will realize that your selfishness drove the father of your children away. You were my one and only, the love of my life. We were supposed to have a happily ever after and raise <our kids> together, now I'm going to have to constantly worry about the kind of man you might bring around them.

We are divorcing. I no longer have any desire at all to make this work. I will not forgive someone who won't even apologize and instead points the blame at me.

We are putting the house up for sale as soon as possible. If we need to take the loss, so be it. If what you say is true about the 6 month period, I might be able to get <my friend> to go in with me to buy a place in the new year to save us the fees, but if not - we will take the loss. I no longer care about saving it or getting you 'your' investment back. I would rather lose the money than spend one more minute having to live with you. I'd suggest you call your work and let them know you'll need to get back on active duty ASAP.

Tomorrow I am making us an appointment for the divorce mediators to begin the process of settling the paperwork and resolving all necessary issues. The sooner we can get that started, the sooner we can start our new separate lives. You may as well cancel the counselor appointment, there's not a damn thing he can do to help us now. If we're lucky we can get an appointment for Saturday to go to Waterloo and talk to the mediators. 

Aside from matters of the divorce, the home, or the kids - I do not want to speak to you ever again. 

With ultimate regret,
<me>


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

She is who she is and you can't fix her. Do you want to waste more of your life in limbo? it's time to move on. How many chances are you going give her and get the same results.

You tried but it is time. There is better out there.

Good luck


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Marc878 said:


> She is who she is and you can't fix her. Do you want to waste more of your life in limbo? it's time to move on. How many chances are you going give her and get the same results.
> 
> You tried but it is time. There is better out there.
> 
> Good luck


She had sex with 3 different men in less than a month, including me, while lying to me about it all and pretending she wanted to some day reconcile. Who knows, maybe that wasn't a lie - but she sure as hell won't be getting that now. 

There are no more chances. It's done. I could have forgiven her if she had apologized, but she acted so smug and self-justified, as though -I- were the cause of her behaviour and I deserved what I got. I took a personal day at work for today, I'm on my way out the door as soon as I finish my coffee and cereal, going to the bank to start separating our accounts and then to a lawyer and a mediator to start the process of finally extricating myself from this filthy liar. I'm gonna lose a lot of money in the process of selling the house, but it's a small price to pay for the peace of mind of no longer being beholden to her.

One day, after she goes from man to man to man for a while, she's gonna realize what she lost.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Stop talking, start acting.

Consult an attorney, separate finances, and file. 

The more you talk to her, the more you get sucked into her web. You don't yet have the strength to resist that.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wow! 

She's a real sloot.

When she crashes it will be epic. You had better keep a close eye on your kids. She could really F them up.



farsidejunky said:


> Stop talking, start acting.
> 
> Consult an attorney, separate finances, and file.
> 
> The more you talk to her, the more you get sucked into her web. You don't yet have the strength to resist that.


What Far said X 10


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Btw this explains why she wanted an open separation with an agreement not to look for another partner.

She had hers lined up and just wanted to deny you from hooking up. ( With that in mind how "fair" do you think she will be in the divorce?)

Also realize that when you were feeling used during sex with her, you probably were.

She was horny from cyber sex and you were a flesh dildo. This explains her push/pull and going back to the room intead of snuggling.

It wasnt like dating for her, it was a hybrid form of cheating.


Would it have made any difference is she had been genuinely sorry with her confession?


Realize that defensiveness is a compensation for guilt. She is not allowing herself to feel the pang of guilt.

That does not mean she never would if you worked toward reconciliation, but I wonder if she has what it takes to do the necessary heavy lifting.

I think you are still going to feel uncertain about what you want to do, but if you hook up with that other woman it very likely will settle it for you.

I'm not recomending anything just making an observation about a possible outcome.

She may be using sex as a poison pill to settle it for herself and end the relationship, but she is finding it hard to let go so your offer of forgiveness brought a confession but without a full commitment on her part.

The net result for her, either you comit to reconcillation and she has a clean slate, or she gets the "poison pill" effect and a final resolution. A win/win of sorts for her.

Hey I really do wish you well.
Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Just as I suspected all along.....her 'separation' talk was nothing but a cover to go screw around with these scumbags.

As I posted to you, I knew that 'chance' meet-up with that POS was arranged and that she probably made it PA with him at that point.

And I know your gut was screaming on it too.

And your gut continued screaming with the 'excessive perfume'/weirdness day after she said she wanted to reconcile.

Just more evidence that a BS should always trust their gut......knowing a partner for that long, and then seeing/feeling the change in them is rarely off the mark.


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## hesitationmarks (Jan 30, 2014)

Dude just file for divorce. If you keep doing this **** you will just hate yourself in the end. I have been doing the same thing you are doing for damn near two years, trying to justify the relationship, sitting tight, etc. throwing my life away. Your relationship will never be the same or better, just end it.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Stop talking, start acting.
> 
> Consult an attorney, separate finances, and file.
> 
> The more you talk to her, the more you get sucked into her web. You don't yet have the strength to resist that.


It's so true.. every time I talk to her, she's able to drag me back a bit at a time. I find myself feeling like maybe, just maybe, now that she's come clean we might be able to get our **** together and start over. She seems genuinely sorry.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Decorum said:


> Also realize that when you were feeling used during sex with her, you probably were.
> 
> She was horny from cyber sex and you were a flesh dildo. This explains her push/pull and going back to the room instead of snuggling.
> 
> ...


Wow man, you totally read my mind on that. I even said afterwards, during one of our fights, that she only came to me because her vibrator wasn't good enough for her that day. I really did feel used, even though it was great sex and I enjoyed it too. I realize now that the cybersex was likely part of the stimulus. 

Granted, the cybersex (now that she's explained how it went down) is really not very high on the list of offenses. She said that she never even masturbated during it, just used it to get herself fired up beforehand. Not that it's an excuse in the strictest sense, but in a way it's a lot like watching porn - which I do, so I can't fault her for wanting some extra stimulation in that way. That said, in the future if we somehow get back together (highly doubtful, but whatever), if she dabbles in a bit of sexy talk online and then comes and screws the hell out of me - I can probably get behind that. Like I said, it's almost like watching porn, and I've watched more than my fair share of that.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

hesitationmarks said:


> Dude just file for divorce. If you keep doing this **** you will just hate yourself in the end. I have been doing the same thing you are doing for damn near two years, trying to justify the relationship, sitting tight, etc. throwing my life away. Your relationship will never be the same or better, just end it.


Part of me really really agrees with you. I just want it to be done, now. Part of me though, the part that keeps shrinking but is still loud enough to be heard, believes that now that she's finally come clean we might be able to move forward and build something new. 

I'm definitely not committing to it though, but she does have her own counselling appt. tomorrow morning, we have a previously scheduled MC session tomorrow afternoon, and I have my own personal psych appointment on Tuesday, so maybe we can start to gather the tools we need to build something new on the ashes of what was.

It's gonna take a lot of work, from her to prove she's seriously sorry and from me to be able to forgive - but if I can, I still (for some reason) want to.

I am certain she has some deep-seated sexual/self image problems, possibly she was abused as a child or something (but she's never said anything about it). I know I've got my own problems that make the whole thing worse too. I know, I know - everyone has problems. I'm not taking the blame for her behaviour, as much as she wants me to, but I know that if we're gonna heal ever I need to be able to truly forgive, just as she needs to be truly sorry.


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## survive_to_die (Oct 21, 2015)

reborngoat said:


> now that she's come clean we might be able to get our **** together and start over. She seems genuinely sorry.


You know your limits. We all know our own limits. I say don't stop until yours are reached. When I reached my limit that forced me to change it was catastrophic and painful. But I'm changing, growing and improving. Unfortunately it devastated my wife and she left me. Now she's changed. Her changes are good and seem to be what she needs and probably had wanted for herself for a while (minus the parts involving my horrible decisions). I hope eventually as we change we can reconnect and bring our changes together for a relationship that is healthier than it was before.

Maybe your wife and you still have a few more events that will break you more and push you both to be who you should be for yourselves. The hope would be that at some point it's not so far apart that you can't come back together. Time will tell.

Be strong.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Reborn,

My advice.....do not do that to yourself.

IMO one of the most egregious parts of the sh*t she just pulled with you was how upset and angry she got at you for going on the dating site and moving on after she basically demanded the open 'separation'.....knowing full well she was going to go f*ck a bunch of strange POSOM's....if she hadn't already be doing it.

Do not assume that you have the entire truth here, Reborn.

She may have already been screwing around before she ever asked you for separation.....she just wanted more freedom and space to carry it out.

Usually, if you follow the threads around here, the TT isn't just ended after the first big disclosure.

Look at the progression in your case.

I want separation for space with the 'option' of sex if it arises....becomes.....well I was just talking to these guys.....becomes it was just a spur of the moment, random meet-up and nothing happens.....becomes I screwed POS that day, and another random scumbag the day you were suspicious.

The problem for you is this....what does 2 POSOM's and cybersex become on the next TT?

You know she was distant and at least talking to a bunch of these sh*tbags months before asking for the separation.

From my outsider perspective, she burned all her bridges with you.....kick her to the curb hard, as you declared you would in your last email, and go find a good and loyal woman after you are rid of her.

And don't even assume she's finished with this crap now....she came back wanting to R after she already went PA with the first POSOM you know about....and STILL continued to do it.

She might sound sad and sorry right now that you busted her again....but that IMO is an act to keep you from bolting immediately.....its not a guarantee that she won't go right back to doing it again after she sucks you back into this M.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Reborn, 

Go into the CWI section and read kwood's thread to see the pain and torture a BS goes through who keeps allowing his trashy WW to keep sucking him back into the relationship.

But at a certain point, as nasty as a WS behaves, the pain and suffering of the BS becomes their own fault when they won't detach and move on from a remorseless and manipulative cheater.

And IMO, based on what you have said her words and actions have been throughout your thread, that (remorseless and manipulative) is EXACTLY what you are dealing with as well.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

reborngoat said:


> Granted, the cybersex (now that she's explained how it went down) is really not very high on the list of offenses. She said that she never even masturbated during it, just used it to get herself fired up beforehand. Not that it's an excuse in the strictest sense, but in a way it's a lot like watching porn - which I do, so I can't fault her for wanting some extra stimulation in that way. That said, in the future if we somehow get back together (highly doubtful, but whatever), if she dabbles in a bit of sexy talk online and then comes and screws the hell out of me - I can probably get behind that. Like I said, it's almost like watching porn, and I've watched more than my fair share of that.


I think anything live would be a mistake for this woman, online sexy talk or bringing someone else in. It takes fantasy to another level and she is not a secure and confident enough person to not be harmed by it. Some can handle it, but she would be at risk, just my opinion.

Like you said it may never get to that point but if it does the two of you need to really think it through as a couple, and not just please yourselves.

It is going to be something of a roller coaster going forward, keep updating it will help you to type it out.

Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> Reborn,
> 
> My advice.....do not do that to yourself.
> 
> ...




I really think this is the truth.
Real consequences and real remorse have not been felt or shown yet, sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

I really do appreciate all of your inputs. It's so easy to say, especially from outside, that I should just boot her out. I keep going back and forth between wanting to do that, and then realizing how badly my life will be screwed and how she'll use the kids against me and such. That, and I really was a ****ty husband in the first place - not that that excuses her behaviour, but I just wonder if we could find the goodness again and if I could be the husband I should have been and she could be the wife she should have been....


I have a feeling I'm following a certain pattern though, and that I'm not the only one who's been through this exact situation..

But still, she was always so honest before.. I know in my heart that she never cheated (at least physically) before the separation, it's just the kind of person she is. She wanted to, probably, but felt she needed to separate first.

I feel like if we could possibly get a reset we could maybe try again.. but I just don't know how to do it yet, and I really don't know how to trust her.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Decorum said:


> I really think this is the truth.
> Real consequences and real remorse have not been felt or shown yet, sorry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's true  I know she feels bad about the first guy, I could see it in her eyes when she told me - after they had sex, she said she started to cry and was really upset - because it wasn't me. I can forgive that one more easily, because I can tell that she's genuinely sorry about it.

But to do it again, with another guy, and this one she did strictly because she and I had a fight the day before (and I called her a liar and a cheater. Turns out that I was right, but still..). She even acted like this one was justified, like I deserved it because of how I treated her the day before.. I mean, I was viciously mean to her and called her some nasty stuff - but to be fair, she WAS DOING EXACTLY WHAT I SAID SHE WAS. She says she's sorry about this one too, and that she will never do it again - but how do I know that the next time we have a fight, she's not gonna do the same thing?

I felt genuine remorse for the first one, but the second is the one I'm hung up on. I don't feel that she is really sorry for it, other than being sorry that I know now.

Real consequences are so hard though, I feel like I have only one gun with only one bullet in it - and that bullet is life-changing and world-altering, with extreme reach and no takebacks.. for both of us and the kids. It's so hard to drop the nuke, I wish I had a smaller, more precise weapon - so to speak.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

It's your life you have to try what you think is best in your circumstance. If shes turned into a serial cheater it's probably not fixable.

The question you'll eventually have to decide on is what do you want your life to be? Can she be part of it or not?

My advice is give it a shot with a timeline. You fix your end let her fix hers. If either one doesn't work on it and there's no progress move on and quit wasting time. The one thing you can never get back.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Marc878 said:


> It's your life you have to try what you think is best in your circumstance. If shes turned into a serial cheater it's probably not fixable.
> 
> The question you'll eventually have to decide on is what do you want your life to be? Can she be part of it or not?
> 
> My advice is give it a shot with a timeline. You fix your end let her fix hers. If either one doesn't work on it and there's no progress move on and quit wasting time. The one thing you can never get back.


This is what she's asked for, and I want to give it - but at least for the last while, it's been impossible because I've constantly felt like she was sneaking and hiding things. It literally drove me nuts, and we fought constantly because I was so on edge because of it.

If we can work on our stuff separately, and slowly bring it back together - then there might be a shot.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

reborngoat said:


> This is what she's asked for, and I want to give it - but at least for the last while, it's been impossible because I've constantly felt like she was sneaking and hiding things. It literally drove me nuts, and we fought constantly because I was so on edge because owf it.
> 
> If we can work on our stuff separately, and slowly bring it back together - then there might be a shot.


Only with full transparancy and her cutting out the BS will this have a chance. You must put your foot down here. Anymore BS and you walk no more chances. You have to mean it and not be a doormat.

Can you do it? If not she'll just walk all over you again.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Reborn:

Do you even hear yourself?

You are actually trying to rationalize her lousy behavior.

Do you think she is the best you can do?


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

For you, get on with your life instead of this continuing harmful, dysfunctional relationship. 

As hard as it is, you are not good for her, and she does not respect you until you show independence and see other people. That does not work for a marriage. For her, she may need to hit rock bottom, find someone she likes, and deal with her internal s... as extensive as it is. Perhaps she can find the person to deal with all of this, perhaps after therapy.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Reborn:
> 
> Do you even hear yourself?
> 
> ...


Maybe not, I'm sure there's someone else out there who would treat me better, appreciate me more, and who I'd have more in common with and be more sexually compatible with. There's probably many women like that out there, but none of them are the mother of my kids :-(


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

If you're going to give this one more try you need to deal with it by being strong.

Lay down the law. I'm ready to move on. If we can't work this out I'm done. Not going to waste life on you, etc. if you can't do this and mean it you'll fail. It may not work out anyway.

Do you like living in limbo? Make a final plan and stick to it. Being weak here will get you more of the same.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

We have counselling in an hour. I am going to use that as an opportunity to tell her that this is absolutely the last chance, that if she wants reconciliation truly that she needs to show genuine remorse and spend the next (amount of time, to be discussed with the counselor) being absolutely 100% transparent, getting off the chat sites, telling me exactly where she goes when she leaves, when she will return, and who she's going to be with, and having zero contact with any other men outside of family and necessity (and her one old friend that she hangs out with sometimes). I, in turn, am going to work on what she considers to be the worst things about me: my unstable temper and being present for her and the kids.

If that can go on for a while, maybe a few months, and we can get along and I can reach a point where I'm not constantly worried every time she says she's going out that she's gone to bone someone, maybe we can try actually working on our relationship.

If if fails at the first stage though, if she's not willing to give up contact with other men and provide me the transparency that I need to rebuild the trust - then I will be forced to file for divorce on grounds of adultery, which lets us bypass the 1 year separation period that is mandatory in Canada and move directly into divorcing.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

She felt guilty from the first guy?

I think you should take this with a grain of salt.

If she was truly guilty, there is little chance she would have ever gone out and done it again so quickly.

You are being played here IMO.....she KNOWS if she doesn't express how remorseful she is, you are out.

And don't be afraid of dropping the nuke....in fact, I think you should.

Let her hit a stage of panic that you are leaving, and only drop the filing if she comes back begging for any chance to repair what she has destroyed.

Make HER chase YOU to keep her M.

And if she doesn't do this, that is a clear sign her remorse was a bull sh*t act......and forcing her to show her true colors will save you time and pain.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Yeah, that's likely the case. We just got back from counseling, and she spent the majority of the time casting blame on me (while I spent a lot of the time on an angry tirade, calling her a wh0re). I'm giving it a little while, maybe a month, and if I still feel like this is wrong - I'm out. We actually discussed the possibility of finding a way to move to separate locations for a while, and she insists that if we do that we need to divorce. I suspect that if we did move apart, even for a while, it would give me the space I need to be able to make a calm and rational decision and figure out what I really want/need. It's so hard when I have to see her day in and day out, and can't avoid interacting with her. No matter how much the thought of her fills me with rage, when I see her and talk to her I can't help but remember the woman she was before, the mother of my children and my lover for the last 11 years - but then I see her glued to her phone, or going out for hours at a time, and I can't help but think she's up to no good. It's an awful situation, because I can't live with her but I can't NOT live with her, at least for the time being.

I feel like she may be honest about her willingness to stop what she was doing, but she also might be too spiteful and willing to do it again either to feel good about herself or to get back at me. She's still convinced that I'm the root cause of all of our problems, and there's no way we can get back together unless I fix my own issues first (and they are plentiful and significant, don't get me wrong). I am convinced that, while I have issues too, unless I can forgive her we can never get back together. I can't forgive her unless she's actually sorry, and she won't be sorry unless she actually feels like what she's done is wrong. I really don't feel like she thinks what she did was as wrong as it was. 

I'm gonna give it a month or two, we've not strictly set a timeframe but that's my own internal one. I am tempted to find some woman for casual sex too, nothing serious at all, since she was so willing to do it. Maybe that makes me a bit of a vindictive person, and maybe I am - but she did it first . Maybe if I did it too I wouldn't care as much, but somehow I think that's not the case.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

It takes two to work on a marriage. If you can't do it together you're just wasting time. Keep any evidence in case you want to divorce without the waiting period.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

lmao....now she doesn't want the separation?.....insists if you want to separate, then just go to divorce?

She is afraid that if she gives you the separation now, you are going to give her a taste of her own medicine....and we already know from how she reacted to your dating, that she can't handle the thought of that possibility.

And still blameshifting and unremorseful about f*cking two men while bullsh*tting her BH about what she was doing?

Tell her she better get her head out of her a** fast...and then start doing the 180.

Consult a lawyer, get the paperwork to file, and start filling it out...make sure she knows.

Until she gets terrified she is going to lose you, she is going to continue the crap.

And did I read your update correct?

While telling you she is willing to stop, she is STILL glued to her phone and going out for hours unaccounted for?

Why would you believe a word she is saying if this is the case?

Refuse to tolerate it at all.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

I'm giving it a little bit of time just to see how it pans out, but I'm going to do the banking stuff and talk to lawyers and such without her knowledge for now. Maybe I shouldn't, but I also put myself on Tinder to find a bit of casual sex for me. I'm tired of having her be the only well I can draw from, and having it be dry (for me anyhow, unless someone else has made it wet and she wants to pretend I'm her dildo). 

Two can play this game, and I'm tired of trying to play a losing hand.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

In your case I don't think you have much to lose. I would inform her after you've covered your finances etc. I'm ready to pull the trigger. 

Honestly when I saw her walk in with the POSOM I'd have proceeded full speed ahead with divorce. You could always pick up later if it worked out. Dealing with strength is always the better hand.


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## Scotty0310 (Apr 1, 2014)

Reborngoat,
I read part of the thread here and wanted to say I feel for you. I’ve been in a very similar situation for nearly two years now. Wife and I separated Oct of 2013, she wanted to date to see if she could still have the feelings. I told her no, as I had a gf do this a long time ago without my knowledge, dumped her ass on the spot. Up until Valentines day of 2014, she was the most trust worthy women I had ever known (aside from Mom of course). I trusted her without a doubt during all of my deployments and tours to Korea. 

This time however, she began seeing someone behind my back. It wasn’t until I searched her computer did I find a chat history where I read she slept with this guy. We tried MC a while after that, failed due to the same reasons as your wife (not being into it but going just to go). 

I am one week away from throwing her out as the deadline I gave her has now passed (Oct 31st) to determine if she was going to give us a chance. 

I understand your want/need to work things out, even right now I still adore and am very much in love with my wife. We haven’t had sex this whole duration but I’d kill for the chance to bed her down. But she pulls the same type of mind games your wife has/is and I don’t know about you, but I’m done. Think long and hard about this, force her hand, while shes gone for a while move your stuff back into the bed room and hers to the basement, or just tell her to move out.

This is by no means any advice, as we all have different issues and backgrounds which led us to each current situation, but this is how I am handling mine, be it right or wrong. I only inform you as, from what I've read, I can feel your pain and feel the same as you do about wanting to fix the marriage.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Reborn,

Listen to Scotty.

You DO NOT want to stay in this limbo crap too long....essentially it is conceding to your WW the power to decide the future.

She cheats, but SHE gets to decide whether or not the M is worth saving?

You should be the one with the huge doubts about the M continuing.....she should be the one begging you for the chance to save it.

Put her on notice that you are 'one foot out the door' as far as the M is concerned.....she needs to see that her life as she knows it is hanging by a thread.

Right now she is acting like your support and love, which she has enjoyed and had for years, is a GUARANTEE......it will always be there for her if she wants to pick it back up again.

She is the 'catch' here and you should be oh so happy to have her...look, she is so wonderful she has lots of men chasing her.

A BS needs to quickly smash this fantasy in a WS IMO.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

I want to see what's going to happen this coming weekend. I'm hosting a charity gaming event at our house, and my parents will be taking the kids. They live about 200km away, in the same city as the first other man she slept with (who she said she has broken off all contact with). I don't believe for a second that she has -actually- broken off contact, as the implication all along has been that he was the thing that motivated her to 'separate' originally. I had been planning to drive the kids down on Friday night, and my folks are going to bring them back on Sunday. Last night though, I overheard my wife talking to her mother and saying "I have to drive down to Windsor on Friday to bring the kids down". Now I'm not sure if she meant that she was going to be coming down with me (which would be a super awkward 4 hours in the car for us both) or if she was planning to drive down herself. On Friday, I am going to get the kids ready as though I am going to drive them down myself and see what she says, and if she insists on going down alone. If so, that would be positive proof that she's still in contact with him. 

Honestly though, at this point I'm running out of ways to be mad about it. If she has made that choice, then there's nothing I can do about that - but she can't have that AND have me. I just want a decision either way at this point, either she's willing to work on reconciliation or she's going to continue blaming me and doing harmful stuff while saying that she wants reconciliation 'in the long term'. Having her very obviously go visit the first other man down there would be a pretty concrete decision IMO, even if she refuses to actually commit to it verbally.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Reborn,

Stop waiting for HER decision.

She wants to keep up this 'R in the future' horsecrap while continuing her shady behavior?

Make the decision for yourself.....as you said, she can't have you AND her POS boyfriends at the same time.

Shove her off the fence.

Show her you are leaving ASAP...and either she starts chasing you FAST begging to save her M, or you will be gone....PERMANENTLY.

Stop giving her the power of choice here.....she is just spewing this stuff about confusion and not being sure about what she wants to keep you engaged and in limbo, while she goes out and continues to screw around.

I know many here disagree with RA's....but I don't.

I think you should consider the possibility of going back on that dating site and giving her a taste of her own medicine after you file too.

Let her SEE that you are dead serious about moving on....and her time is running out to remove her head from her own behind.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Dyokemm said:


> Reborn,
> 
> Stop waiting for HER decision.
> 
> ...


I've thus far been pretty good at decoding your acronyms, but I'm at a loss for RA. What is that one?

And I have already gone back on a couple dating sites. This time around, though, I'm not looking for love or a deep connection or anything of the sort. I don't need any more drama in my life. I'm just looking for new friends, a bit of sex, and some fun. Although it would hurt her more (according to her) for me to go looking for love as opposed to just sex, I'm not really just doing it for retaliation. I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a little bit of 'screw you' involved, but it's mostly just to play a bit of her selfish "me first" game and get some for me.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

reborngoat said:


> I've thus far been pretty good at decoding your acronyms, but I'm at a loss for RA. What is that one?
> 
> And I have already gone back on a couple dating sites. This time around, though, I'm not looking for love or a deep connection or anything of the sort. I don't need any more drama in my life. I'm just looking for new friends, a bit of sex, and some fun. Although it would hurt her more (according to her) for me to go looking for love as opposed to just sex, I'm not really just doing it for retaliation. I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a little bit of 'screw you' involved, but it's mostly just to play a bit of her selfish "me first" game and get some for me.


RA = revenge affair

You are correct. This weekend will tell all. You'll know. 

Good luck


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

She's still playing you like a string puppet. End this marriage already.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"Although it would hurt her more (according to her) for me to go looking for love as opposed to just sex"

Yeah right.....that's why she reacted so calmly when she found out you were on a dating site.

She has been focused on screwing around on you, while keeping you as a distraught and begging Plan B in limbo, since she first asked for a separation.

At no time were you supposed to do anything but wait for her to come back, while she went out to try out these POS scumbags she was already talking to (at a minimum, if the PA's hadn't already been going on.....I know she told you differently and you think you might believe her....but she is a PROVEN liar)

As I told you from the start....you refusing to quietly sit there pining away for her blew up her plans....so she sucked you back in with the potential R talk, but she continues even to the present to pursue these other sh*tbags.

Want to really know if she's still engaged with this POSOM 1?

LET her take the kids to your hometown....but arrange to have a PI tail her.

Chance to catch her red-handed, with the perfect evidence she is STILL doing it after you caught her.....would be the final capping evidence to have for friends and family when you expose and file for D.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

I don't need any evidence for friends and family, it doesn't matter what they think. She's admitted what she's done. What I need is evidence for ME that she's truly unwilling to try to change back into the fantastic woman I fell in love with years ago. If she chooses to go see Guy#1 again, that would show me without a doubt that the woman she was is gone forever. If, however, she chooses not to - then that at least gives a sliver of hope that it's possible that she's willing to try to do the right thing and put in the hard work to rebuild.

My feelings are obviously quite mixed. Part of me really wants her back - or rather, wants the OLD her back, from before all this garbage started. That's the part of me that still feels like I'm responsible because of how poorly I treated her in the months and years leading up to the separation. Another part of me is growing with the acceptance that if these other men really are what she wants, then the old her is lost forever anyhow and it would be best for us both to truly go our separate ways (especially since the kids are still young enough that they won't understand). That part of me says, "yes, I was a bad husband, but you were a bad wife too, there's no shame in quitting if it's not right". Still the last part of me, which is shrinking daily but still very loud, is full to the brim with hate and anger and rage over both her actions and her smug justifications. That's the part of me that wants to grab her, throw her on the floor, and hate-screw the hell out of her - then kick her out of my house and life forever.

I hate knowing that she'll make it a living hell for me to see my kids afterwards if I force us to divorce  The financial hardships I can tolerate (to a point, anyhow), but being screwed out of having a good relationship with my favourite humans is not something I'm willing to accept.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

The courts will decide how much you see your kids...she will have nothing to say on the matter.

As far as her being nasty and belligerent....well maybe a good dose of shame by being exposed for what she has done can help there.

Hard to sell friends and family on the idea that you are some horrid monster who deserves her anger after they are informed that she has been running around screwing multiple men while trying to keep you stuck in a h*llish limbo.

As far as some of your other points:

Stop pining for the woman she used to be.....that woman is gone forever.....the nasty cheat she is right now murdered that lady.

If you really want to know about POSOM 1 and if it continues....LET her go and arrange for a friend/relative or PI to watch to see if she meets him....you will know by the time she is on her way back home.

Don't take any blame for her choice to cheat....as you said, you may not have been the perfect husband, but she wasn't the perfect wife either.....and you didn't run off and screw around......it's her cheating, let HER own it.


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## survive_to_die (Oct 21, 2015)

reborngoat said:


> My feelings are obviously quite mixed. Part of me really wants her back - or rather, wants the OLD her back, from before all this garbage started. That's the part of me that still feels like I'm responsible because of how poorly I treated her in the months and years leading up to the separation.


I agree with others that after events like these the OLD spouses and the OLD relationship is dead. HOWEVER, there are parts of you and parts of your wife that aren't dead. Those existed before you got together, they played a role in you two becoming attracted to each other in the first place. Most of who we are as people is pretty hardwired but a fair amount is what we adjust and learn based on external stimulus from our environment and those around us. 

This person you are now, the person your wife is now (the cheating, etc...) aren't a permanent fixture in your characters. So no, you can't reclaim the past as it was, but you can still be the best of who you were in the past with the new addition of the best of who you two would like to be after this all happened.

It's not impossible, just difficult. It takes two honest people who are dedicated to be their best possible selves for the sake of being a good person, combined with love and commitment to being your best self for the needs of your significant other.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

So.. the two of us haven't been talking much in the last few days, basically limited to essentials regarding maintaining the home and taking care of the kids. She asked me yesterday what my plan was for Friday, and I said that I was going to bring the kids down after dinner - and she agreed, without any hesitation or resistance at all. There's no way to know if she has something planned for after I leave, but I'm taking it as a tiny good sign, baby steps if you will. She also seems to be trying to be more kind and considerate, and not really in the over-the-top fake way that she was when she was acting weird after the 2nd man.. Time will tell, a few days doesn't mean anything.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

survive_to_die said:


> I agree with others that after events like these the OLD spouses and the OLD relationship is dead. HOWEVER, there are parts of you and parts of your wife that aren't dead. Those existed before you got together, they played a role in you two becoming attracted to each other in the first place. Most of who we are as people is pretty hardwired but a fair amount is what we adjust and learn based on external stimulus from our environment and those around us.
> 
> This person you are now, the person your wife is now (the cheating, etc...) aren't a permanent fixture in your characters. So no, you can't reclaim the past as it was, but you can still be the best of who you were in the past with the new addition of the best of who you two would like to be after this all happened.


I find it really interesting how you framed that. I can't speak for her, obviously, but I know that while I've had jealousy, anger, and temper issues in the past it's never been even remotely as bad as it has been in the last few months. The combination of the stress plus the fact that I've never been betrayed and treated like this in my life has led me to become extraordinarily mean and hurtful with my words to her, as well as short tempered with the kids. That aspect of me is not something I like, nor is it something I want to retain - it's easily the ugliest thing I've ever seen in myself. 

Truthfully I never want the past back the way it was. Our relationship for the last several years was broken in a lot of ways, I treated her poorly, she treated me poorly. I denied her needs, she denied mine. We both selfishly waited for the other to be what we needed, while denying them the fuel they needed to do so. What I do want back is the old me, the me that got angry but didn't explode, the me that got jealous but didn't feel the need to sneak and pry and control. I want back my old wife too, she really was a fantastic woman before we ground each other down to this.


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## survive_to_die (Oct 21, 2015)

I understand all of what you're saying. I'm in the same boat, except I was the cheating spouse. I still find myself very angry, very jealous, very insecure and lacking confidence. It really is unbecoming and I know it is, which makes knowing I'm like that even more stressful.

I imagine it's worse for you because the shoe is on the other foot with her cheating. Now is the part of our lives where we show what we are made of to ourselves and those we love. This is for ourselves, not our wives or children, but they will see and know that there's the shift in us. We will feel better, they will be more at ease around us.

Be strong, brother. YOu and I have what we need, just reach down inside yourself and find it then don't let go. Find a good therapist, write the angriest words you can think in a journal before you communicate with someone. Then re-read those words and I think you'll find that their meaning and hatred isn't your true-self.

And you can always feel free to PM me even if it is to vent or bounce ideas off of. I'm not particularly experienced in life (still fairly young), but I could use a vent buddy as well.



reborngoat said:


> I find it really interesting how you framed that. I can't speak for her, obviously, but I know that while I've had jealousy, anger, and temper issues in the past it's never been even remotely as bad as it has been in the last few months. The combination of the stress plus the fact that I've never been betrayed and treated like this in my life has led me to become extraordinarily mean and hurtful with my words to her, as well as short tempered with the kids. That aspect of me is not something I like, nor is it something I want to retain - it's easily the ugliest thing I've ever seen in myself.
> 
> Truthfully I never want the past back the way it was. Our relationship for the last several years was broken in a lot of ways, I treated her poorly, she treated me poorly. I denied her needs, she denied mine. We both selfishly waited for the other to be what we needed, while denying them the fuel they needed to do so. What I do want back is the old me, the me that got angry but didn't explode, the me that got jealous but didn't feel the need to sneak and pry and control. I want back my old wife too, she really was a fantastic woman before we ground each other down to this.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

We talked last night, and it was actually largely civil - but I'm realizing more and more that this likely will never work out. She has insisted for the last while that I'm unstable and I need to be medicated, and she constantly insinuates that I'm the root cause of all of our problems. I went to my shrink last night, and she told me that if I -didn't- feel the way I do, THEN I'd need to be medicated. She also said that I totally deserve to be as mad as I've been for the way my wife has behaved. 

Finally she agreed with both me and our marriage counselor that my wife and I should take whatever steps we need to physically separate - even if that means going into a bit of debt so that I can have my own apartment for a few months to stop the bleeding. 

When I told my wife that, she was super angry and absolutely opposed (apparently she knows better than 2 separate relationship and psych experts). She insisted again that if we did that we'd be guaranteed to divorce anyhow, and that it would be just adding pointless debt. It's possible that that's true, but whatever. I figure a few thousand dollars of debt is totally worth it if we can use that time and space to heal and maybe get back together in the long run - but she doesn't. Truthfully I think that she's just being selfish, just like she's been all along. She knows that if I got my own place she'd have to be like a single mother (at least some of the time, I'd still come over and take care of the kids and house and such - I had suggested every other day, but who knows?). Plus if we did that we'd need to do a legal separation agreement, which would cost lawyer fees and such anyhow. 

I'm leaning right now towards just filing for divorce and getting the process started. I don't foresee how she and I will ever see eye to eye again, how she'll ever be happy with me again and how I'll ever be happy with her again. At least getting the process started will put a light at the end of the tunnel, so we can work towards that closure. Like someone said earlier in the thread, Marc I believe it was, stop wasting time - the one thing we can't get back. I don't want to live in this limbo, unable to leave but unable to stay. I'm in my mid 30s, which isn't that old, but definitely isn't young any more - and while I'm not looking to replace her right away or something, I would like to some day find someone who I can actually get old with. The longer I wait to start looking, the harder it will be. I don't want to waste any more of my life with someone who doesn't want to be with me, nor I with her.

I still believe that she's being honest now, for what it's worth, but that might not be enough for me to be able to be OK with what she's done, nor for her to be OK with what I've said to her and how I treated her before. She has made it clear that she doesn't love me any more, and while I love her still - I also hate her.

I'm curious if anyone knows the answer to this (specifically in Canada at least): I'm the one who makes all the money here, she doesn't work. Actually she has a decent job that she's on long term unpaid leave from, she never went back after we had our son last year (though she could at any time, but we'd need to put the kids in daycare). If I start the process of separating financially, wherein I keep paying all the bills and such, paying for the kids and all that, but I transfer my money into my own account so that she can't use it for anything.. is that legally acceptable behaviour? I mean, as long as I'm still paying for the kids and the house and the bills and the essentials, I figure if she wants money to have a gym membership, or to go shopping or take trips or do whatever - she should have to find her own cash flow to do so. Am I off base on this thought process, or does that make sense? 

I figure if she doesn't want to act like my wife, then she shouldn't get all the benefits of having a husband, in this case specifically access to my hard-earned dollars to spend on herself. Plus if I can motivate her to get back to work, it will mean a) that I won't have to see her as much, and b) I will be less likely to need to pay her any spousal support after we finally divorce (which is my main financial worry about the whole process). I don't care about paying child support, my kids deserve that. As long as I get my computer, a desk, a chair, maybe a few dishes, a TV, and a couch - everything else she can have, just let me keep my future earnings.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Questions for an attorney, brother. Get a consult...soon.

It is past time to move on. She wants to keep a sweet deal going. Sweet for her. 

How long will you allow it to continue?


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Questions for an attorney, brother. Get a consult...soon.
> 
> It is past time to move on. She wants to keep a sweet deal going. Sweet for her.
> 
> How long will you allow it to continue?


Yeah man, I was mostly just curious if anyone knows the rules while I wait for an appointment. Last night was nice, we talked but didn't really fight - but it did really help cement for me the fact that there's almost certainly no coming back from this. She is not mine any longer, now I need to work on not being hers. I have no wife, but she's been able to have a husband without needing to be a wife. 

Gotta move on. Can't keep wasting time.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Yes....consult an attorney and get the ball rolling on legal separation and D.

Your WW just doesn't get it.

The simple fact right now is this.....given her crappy actions, she doesn't deserve to have you as a H.

Remove yourself from her life.....tell her to go get a job, because you are done supporting her.

You will pay anything for your kids needs, but not a da*n dime for her lifestyle.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Dyokemm said:


> Yes....consult an attorney and get the ball rolling on legal separation and D.
> 
> Your WW just doesn't get it.
> 
> ...


For sure, this is exactly what I need to do. I just need to make sure that I'm legally OK to do so.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Lawyer appointment booked. The time has come.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

Lawyer meeting complete, arrangements have begun for a legal separation agreement. Came home and discussed matters with my wife, and it was.. amazingly civil and adult. We've pretty easily come to agreement on nearly every important point, but we're likely going to wait until after Christmas to get the lawyers to draw it up and for me to move out. We've even (nearly) figured out what to do about the house, which is one of the hardest things to resolve in our case. 

It's still a ways off, but at least I can tell that somewhere at the end of the tunnel is some light.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

I had the weirdest feeling last night, a sense of combined relief and sadness over it all. It's messed up.. Because I know that this is for the best, and I know that we'll both be happier once the dust settles and we're truly apart - but it's hard to shake the sense of loss. I suppose in a way it's like when a loved one suffers with sickness for a long time, then finally passes away. You know it's better for them to stop suffering, but it doesn't mean you grieve any less.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I'm curious if anyone knows the answer to this (specifically in Canada at least): I'm the one who makes all the money here, she doesn't work. ...


Canadian guy with divorce experience here:

Your wife will not get any sort of alimony. You weren't married long enough and she's capable of holding a job. The judge will give her nothing in terms of regular payments.

Your assets and debts will split in half which is probably to her disadvantage in the long run since she's been sitting on her ass doing nothing. I know you'll take a financial hit, but she really screwed herself out of a comfortable future by opening up her legs. Don't think anyone is foolish enough to give her the life you've been giving her. Women can only attract fools like that in their 20s. Later on in life, it gets harder and nearly impossible as men with high incomes mature up.

You will have to pay regular child-support payments which I'm sure she will selfishly steal from for her own expenses.

Your wife is a just another selfish cheat. They're a dime a dozen and very easy to find (or fall for). Cut her loose and never look back. 

Also learn to attract a different type of woman. Don't fall for the same crap again. Don't be a rescuer or a nice guy. They smell people like you from continents away. 

Good luck mate.


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## reborngoat (Sep 24, 2015)

I haven't updated in a while, just wanted to throw this in... We're officially separated now, and I moved out of her house last week. It's cost me a lot of dollars, but the arrangement has basically been: She takes all our stuff and property, I pay for the legal fees, and she leaves my paycheques and pension and such alone. She has basically already moved her new boyfriend into the house, but it doesn't even bug me - I feel fantastic, it's an amazing blast of freedom being in my own apartment and outside of her domain. The only part that really sucks is not seeing my kids every day  

She posted a few pics of the kids in the bath to Facebook yesterday, and tagged her new boyfriend in them. I almost started to cry, because those are MY kids, and some random dude is getting to enjoy the things I should have with them. If she makes them call him Dad I'll be so mad...


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