# Conflicting messages about sex



## ManUp (Nov 25, 2012)

OK, I'm done with covert contracts. And I understand that I can only control myself, but I'm feeling confused today.

Our sex life has taken a nose dive in the last 6 months, right along with our marriage. However, we have been doing counselling, and we have learned how to communicate better. Personally, I have read and started to implement stuff from Hold onto your NUTS and NMMNG.

Here's the stumbling block I need some clarity on.

I accept full responsibility for our sex life. It is mine to nurture and create. She has stated she wants me to "woo" her. We had a recent counselling session dedicated wholly to our sex life, and that conversation was initiated by her. We had homework from that session that we took home and worked on together. She even sent me an email one morning expressing her desire for more foreplay and what the definition of foreplay is (complete with wikipedia links.) So, the implied assumption is that this is something she wants more of or to fix.

I have made significant changes to my attitudes surrounding our relationship. I have been far more communicative, decisive, with stated desires and wants. I initiate all discussions about us as a couple and have those uncomfortable discussions about subjects I used to avoid. I have tuned into what she needs from me. To her, intimacy is all about doing stuff. Taking responsibility for the house, the kids homework, meals, event planning, finances, etc... I have stepped up in all areas. However, I can't help the nagging feeling that I'm still creating a covert contract. I tell myself, I'm doing these things because it makes me a better father, husband, and man. I have even validated her feelings about my oldest daughter and stepped up to stand up for my wife and not allowed my daughter to treat my wife like an afterthought. And so part of me says, "Hey, I do these things because it's the right thing to do." But I cannot get rid of that nagging feeling that maybe I should expect to get something back.

However, I do not receive back what I get. Now, I know I shouldn't expect that. But, I told her intimacy for me is equal to affection. I do not get kisses, hugs, touch of any kind from her. Or if I do, it's a patronizing pat on the head or a small peck. In fact, she doesn't even say "I love you" anymore. Like, even in those situations where one would expect that to be said, it won't even come out of her mouth. I've also stopped saying it too, only because I know I won't get it back.

I've also disconnected my emotional hose. She wants to be angry about something, that's her problem. The other day, she was on a rant and said "When Momma's not happy..." I finished the sentence for her, "The that's Momma's problem and she shouldn't make it our problem." That pissed her off. Don't care. I'm not walking on eggshells around her anymore.

So, I show her what I want. I hug her, and I get "Ok, that's enough" as she pushes me away. I kiss her and I get a head turning away. I'm getting little of my brand of intimacy and affection, which in turn makes me not want to find her sexually desirable.

So, we go to the only way for her to show me affection in her head is to have sex with me. Which is not what I want. I want her to want to have sex with me, not out of duty. We go from no touch to having sex, with nothing in between , which is no good. This morning, I took her to the bedroom and told her I wanted to have sex. She said no. I know in my head that she has every right to say no if she doesn't feel like doing it because that just leads to bad sex anyways. But, when she doesn't build affection then it all seems so forced and awkward.

Even though I have stated that I am in control of our sex life, in all reality, it feels like she's still in control. We only have sex when she wants to, which is maybe twice a month. There's no compromise. So it makes me not want to try because the vibe I get is that she's just not that into me until she's really horny. She has also said that she can either have sex or not, it doesn't matter to her either way.

She says she's committed into making us a better couple, but I do not see the effort to compromise on what my stated needs and expectations are.

Am I just being impatient? I saw a statement the other day; "Relationships are a two way street, not a highway or a parking lot." I feel all the changes are flowing one way, and I'm not getting much in return and somehow I should be grateful that she's still around.

What do I do?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

_I accept full responsibility for our sex life.

Even though I have stated that I am in control of our sex life, _

You are so exceedingly far off base with those two statements.



Look. Your wife is the other PARTNER in your sex life. Just like she is a partner within the rest of your marriage. Your sex life is just as much her responsibility as it is yours.


It sounds to me that your wife just doesn’t want to have sex with you let alone make passionate love with you.


I gotta add if my wife had ever treated me the way yours does I’d have been steaming and out the door.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

What do you do? I think the book you need is at Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits..



I never try and kid myself. If I'm on a self improvement cycle I do it because I want change in my life, I want something back. I want my life to be better.


So I say the same to you! You are going through a self improvement process BECAUSE YOU WANT SOMETHING BACK OUT OF IT!


That something back is your motivation, your carrot, the reason why you do what you do!


But do really take note of what's going on, be mindful about it all. For example if your wife isn't upping her game then ask yourself WHY? Why isn't she upping her game?


Believe me if she isn't on the program with you trying to improve your marriage the hill you have in front of you is indeed a very steep one and the only way it goes is forever upwards.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How long have you been stepping up and doing all these things?


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## ManUp (Nov 25, 2012)

Yeah, I get you. For example, I thought "Well, how about the next time she WANTS to have sex, I say no."

That would get her attention, because I wouldn't be settling for whatever sexual scraps she's giving me and it also means I'd probably have to go another month before I got another chance. But, that's using sex as a weapon, and I don't think that's the proper way to go about things.

Funny thing. Today we were talking about it, and she was like "oh, your desire level is so much higher than mine, it always has been." Sounded like an excuse to me. And then she said something about viagra for women. I asked her if such a thing existed, would she take it? She goes, "I don't know. I don't know. If there was something that would lower your desire, would you take it." Without missing a beat, I said, "I did. I married you."

Haha...laughs all around. But a painful grain of truth hidden in the middle.


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## ManUp (Nov 25, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> How long have you been stepping up and doing all these things?


Hmm...about 2 months. Yeah, I know. Give it time, right?


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## ManUp (Nov 25, 2012)

AFEH said:


> I never try and kid myself. If I'm on a self improvement cycle I do it because I want change in my life, I want something back. I want my life to be better.
> 
> 
> So I say the same to you! You are going through a self improvement process BECAUSE YOU WANT SOMETHING BACK OUT OF IT!


Very true. Thank you for that.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Yes you are still doing it wrong.

You are still creating a covert contract. Doing stuff that you think she wants and expecting sex in return. 

What you should be doing is making sure that all of your responsibilities (financial, household, parental etc...) are kept in good order, while you distance yourself emotionally from HER. Make sure she has what she needs, don't neglect your children for example, don't quit your job for example, but don't be responsive towards her wants. As she feels you pulling away that will trigger sexual attraction on her side. Her body will want sex with you because it knows that she needs to f0ck you to keep you with her.


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## ManUp (Nov 25, 2012)

Does that mean I stop talking to her?

I know what you're saying, but I'm having a hard time picturing what "distancing myself emotionally from her" looks like.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

ManUp said:


> Does that mean I stop talking to her?
> 
> I know what you're saying, but I'm having a hard time picturing what "distancing myself emotionally from her" looks like.


Imagine that you were considering leaving your wife. But you needed some time to get your affairs in order.

You would need to figure out your finances, to make sure your relationship with your kids is strong, to be able to say you did everything you could for the marriage before you gave up, attending counseling for example, you would need to prepare for being on the dating scene again by getting in shape and upgrading your wardrobe.

But if you were planning to leave your wife, you wouldn't really care that much about whether she loved you or had sex with you. You wouldn't need her to hug and kiss you and you would have no need to hug or kiss her. 

That is basically what it would look like. Now I'm not suggesting that you leave her. I'm suggesting that you behave as if you were going to. When she sees you doing this her need to attract you back will kick in. The way a woman attracts a man is to f*ck him.


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## ManUp (Nov 25, 2012)

So....don't bother to try and work on our marriage. Just say "***c it" and take care of only myself? Don't talk to her about anything important? Don't do anything that takes her into consideration? Pretend I'm single?


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

ManUp said:


> So....don't bother to try and work on our marriage. Just say "***c it" and take care of only myself? Don't talk to her about anything important? Don't do anything that takes her into consideration? Pretend I'm single?


No, don't pretend you are single, don't pretend at all.

Prepare yourself for life without her.

But maintain the moral high ground. 

You need all the good karma you can get.

But when she sees you spreading your wings she will know she needs to attract you. 

Then you get what you want.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

SHE thinks you are doing it to get laid. And in the back of your mind, so do you.

You haven't changed the dynamic ... enough.

Shift your thinking. Stop thinking about what it is you need to do to make her want to have sex with you.
Instead, based upon your action and investment, why exactly is it that she doesn't want to be a better wife to you?

She knows she has something you want.

What you need to find out is if you have something she wants ... love, security, cooperation. How exactly would she feel if you started holding those ransom ... or stated that you recognize that she has a higher need for those things, than you care to express?

Do you see the difference in thinking?

She views this entire enterprise as you jumping through hoops, and she is simply watching. She is measuring your performance.

When is it that you will measure hers? And I'm not talking about her spreading her legs.

You are in control of your sex life ... which begs the question.


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## ManUp (Nov 25, 2012)

Well said
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

east2west said:


> No, don't pretend you are single, don't pretend at all.
> 
> Prepare yourself for life without her.
> 
> ...




....in the short term, most likely with some unintended consequences down the road. Too bad you all have to play games to "get what you want".


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> ....in the short term, most likely with some unintended consequences down the road. Too bad you all have to play games to "get what you want".


I agree, I think this 180 stuff is deceiving. Honesty is still the best policy as far as I'm concerned.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

T&T said:


> I agree, I think this 180 stuff is deceiving. Honesty is still the best policy as far as I'm concerned.


When the problem is that you have turned into a person that is no longer attractive to your spouse. The solution is to turn back into the person that was attractive to them in the first place.


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## Chumpless (Oct 30, 2012)

east2west said:


> When the problem is that you have turned into a person that is no longer attractive to your spouse. The solution is to turn back into the person that was attractive to them in the first place.


Only available a couple of times a week, not being too needy, little time spent together was fun and memorable...etc. That's what it was like when you were dating. Maybe a little more fit, and obviously younger to boot.

I have a hard time with this though being married with 2 little rug-rats running around.

Be careful with the 180. Depending on the circumstances, it could very well backfire. Just be a better man, husband and dad. If she doesn't like it, it can be very telling.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Chumpless said:


> Only available a couple of times a week, not being too needy, little time spent together was fun and memorable...etc. That's what it was like when you were dating. Maybe a little more fit, and obviously younger to boot.
> 
> I have a hard time with this though being married with 2 little rug-rats running around.
> 
> Be careful with the 180. Depending on the circumstances, it could very well backfire. Just be a better man, husband and dad. *If she doesn't like it, it can be very telling.*


Well done with that! This is the bit to be truly aware of. Instead of working with you and helping your growth, she may well for her own selfish, self-centred reasons try and sabotage your growth.


Some of us actually leave our wives even though there's tons of good history and we're still in love with them. We leave them because we know for a fact that if we stay they stunt our growth, holding us static in time to the man we were, not the man we were meant to become.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

east2west said:


> When the problem is that you have turned into a person that is no longer attractive to your spouse. The solution is to turn back into the person that was attractive to them in the first place.


Seeing that we've been together 27 years, I'm not about to start acting like the 22 year old that she once new. We're both very different people now. We've both grown, matured and know what we want. 

Does that 180 move include NOT saying "I love you"? Ignoring her? Doing your own thing and not including her? It seems like mind games too me.

Not going to happen...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

T&T said:


> Seeing that we've been together 27 years, I'm not about to start acting like the 22 year old that she once new. We're both very different people now. We've both grown, matured and know what we want.
> 
> Does that 180 move include NOT saying "I love you"? Ignoring her? Doing your own thing and not including her? It seems like mind games too me.
> 
> Not going to happen...


If you've not got a problem in your marriage there's little here that will make any sense for you. For example the 180 is to be used by guy whose wife is in an affair. It's been proven to work and is a well used and refined process.



If however your wife isn't in an affair it wont make any sense to you whatsoever. Of course if you have an alternative for guys whose wives are betraying them by sleeping with another man you can be assured they'll be all ears.

You may not want to recommend buying her flowers and chocolates, taking care of her emotional needs, begging, being an emotional wimp, buying her presents, doing the washing and cleaning etc. because that's already been tried and it doesn't work.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

AFEH said:


> For example the 180 is to be used by guy whose wife is in an affair. It's been proven to work and is a well used and refined process.


This is where I'm getting confused. I've seen this 180 approach being suggested when there is no affair. Just marital issues, which everyone has to some degree and at some point in time. This is where I think it won't work and is just playing mind games.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

T&T said:


> This is where I'm getting confused. I've seen this 180 approach being suggested when there is no affair. Just marital issues, which everyone has to some degree and at some point in time. This is where I think it won't work and is just playing mind games.


Basically the 180 is designed to drop a wife into the deep end of her affair. To withdraw your “support system” such that she can’t work her way slowly from the shallow to the deep end. To test the water so to speak while keeping you as her Plan B. The 180 is also designed as boundaries for the man such that he can experience some “emotional freedom” from the turmoil that entered his life when he discovered his wife in an affair.


Sex life can often suffer in longer term marriages. I was ok, 42 years with my wife and virtually no problems, my wife was a blessing and a dream. With other men it’s not so, as demonstrated here in TAM.


Athol created something called the MAP. It’s a little similar to the 180 in that it is a lowering of the temperature but that’s about as far as the similarity goes, see Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.. MEM also recommends lowering the temperature to help solve specific marriage problems.


Like anywhere else there is a lot of confusion about the above two approaches and what they’re for. The approaches also have their champions and detractors. The latter are mostly people like yourself who haven’t the need and/or haven’t bothered to do any research. All they do is criticise and that without offering any alternatives whatsoever.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Don't just think of this in the vacuum of attraction, second-guessing whether or not she is attracted to you. Unfortunately, time in marriage sometimes allows people to really lose focus on what is important to them. It is entirely possible that, given the right circumstances, she would kick herself for taking you for granted. 

Think about the things that drive a person to reach out to you, or to put real effort into drawing you closer. Behind it, you'll find a sense of wanting to prove herself to you, put her best foot forward, or win you over. Often, it can be as simple as realizing that you possess traits that would attract other people, or even the feeling that you could be slipping away.

When you become an almost meaningless part of her life (in your eyes), maybe it is the time to build yourself up independently. Take on new interests FOR YOU. Exercise and do interesting physical activities FOR YOU. Don't focus on her (and sex) for a while. Focus on you and the things that make you more interesting. Ever considered taking an outside class on speaking skills, professional meetings, photography, hiking groups? Tell her matter-of-factly that she has left you out of your life, so you are trying to fill the gaps. Turn your focus inward. Become the kind of person that others notice.

Really, it does seem highly likely that she considers you to be her one sure thing, someone who she takes for granted. That can be a positive when we also realize how lucky we are to have a person who is our one sure thing in life.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Halien said:


> Don't just think of this in the vacuum of attraction, second-guessing whether or not she is attracted to you. Unfortunately, time in marriage sometimes allows people to really lose focus on what is important to them. It is entirely possible that, given the right circumstances, she would kick herself for taking you for granted.
> 
> Think about the things that drive a person to reach out to you, or to put real effort into drawing you closer. Behind it, you'll find a sense of wanting to prove herself to you, put her best foot forward, or win you over. Often, it can be as simple as realizing that you possess traits that would attract other people, or even the feeling that you could be slipping away.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Because hitting "like" is not enough. 

The bold is of particular importance. Be honest about your actions and motivations. No need to hide or be cruel or yell. Just matter of factly let her know.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Do you know what her needs are? 

it took marriage counseling for me to realize what my wife's needs were. in fact, she never came out and told me but in counseling she laid them out so I knew. They weren't doing household chores, homework or finances. It was communication, spending non-sexually intimate time with her and valuing her as a partner.

However, once I started meeting her needs and got her to admit I was, she never was able to meet my needs for intimacy. So I told her that if she can not meet my needs, I would be resentful and frustrated that my efforts to meet hers are not improving our marriage and because of that, I would no longer be interested in meeting her needs.

That's when you do the 180. Instead of sitting down with her for a nice conversation after dinner, I was out on my motorcycle. Instead of cuddling and watching a movie together, I worked in my shop. I told her that if the nonsexual intimacy never eventually led to sexual intimacy, I couldn't be bothered.

She got the message.

So the bottom line is that you need to make sure you are meeting her needs, whatever they are. And if you are and she isn't meeting yours, you stop meeting hers and let her know why.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

I don't think the goal is to get sex as one of the "needs" that she has to meet in exchange for him meeting her needs. That would be considered duty sex. I think the goal is to trigger actual desire for sex on the part of the person who is not feeling attracted. The way you do that is to send signals which suggest that you are not fully and completely attached to that person.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

east2west said:


> I don't think the goal is to get sex as one of the "needs" that she has to meet in exchange for him meeting her needs. That would be considered duty sex. I think the goal is to trigger actual desire for sex on the part of the person who is not feeling attracted. The way you do that is to send signals which suggest that you are not fully and completely attached to that person.


Maybe. I would submit that meeting your partners needs in fact makes you more attractive to them, or at least removes some of the impediments to them seeing your attractiveness.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Athol created something called the MAP. It’s a little similar to the 180 in that it is a lowering of the temperature but that’s about as far as the similarity goes, see Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.. MEM also recommends lowering the temperature to help solve specific marriage problems.


I always thought MAP and 180 were the same thing. Is there some other book that describes the 180 idea? Is it different from Athol's MAP?

Anyway I see MSSL as being mostly written for someone who's marriage is falling apart due to a lack of attraction on one end. But the ideas are still worthy for those of us who are in healthy stable relationships with good sex lives.

For me its been not so much about "alphaing up", but more about fine tuning the amount of and type beta to make her feel secure and happy in the relationship but without smothering her or giving the appearance of being too emotionally dependent.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

This is just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt. I feel like lack of sex springs from one of two sides: either you are an a$$hole with no regard for her feelings, and she lacks trust and therefore loses desire. OR you are dependable "nice guy", who will always be there for her, and she doesn't have to have sex with you because you'll be her loyal servant for life.

Now #2 does not necessarily come with malice, just the fact that you are a loyal, dependable, doormat, who will never leave, can rob her of drive.

My suggestion is to rule out scenario #1, which I believe you do not fall into as you are going to counseling and working on meeting your wife's needs.

This may sound counter to what you are trying to do here, but you need to live in the realm of "If my wife isn't meeting my needs, I can and will go elsewhere." As of now, this is not a possibility for you. The thought probably sickens you. You could not possibly imagine leaving your wife, especially not over this. Well what happens when you act like this, you become boring, uninteresting, unexciting, a desperate little puppy dog. Certainly not who you were when you were dating.

So what can you do? Start spending the energy you were spending on trying to get sex, on yourself. Go to the gym. Do man stuff (build cars, shoot guns, go bowling, poker, whatever). As you start working on yourself, enjoying your time, building your esteem, several things will happen. You will gain confidence, you will stop making your wife your entire world, and your wife will either realize that she's being challenged and come to, or she won't and you might as well start preparing for the split anyway.

There is no downside to this approach. If it becomes the catalyst to get you more sex, mission accomplished. If it doesn't, you've improved your life, and taken control of your own destiny. It will also put you in a better position if you decide you need to leave.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

east2west said:


> I don't think the goal is to get sex as one of the "needs" that she has to meet in exchange for him meeting her needs. That would be considered duty sex. I think the goal is to trigger actual desire for sex on the part of the person who is not feeling attracted. The way you do that is to send signals which suggest that you are not fully and completely attached to that person.


Then let me rephrase it as I did with my wife...

There needs to be a fulfilling, intimate sexual component in the marriage.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

east2west said:


> I always thought MAP and 180 were the same thing. Is there some other book that describes the 180 idea? Is it different from Athol's MAP?
> 
> Anyway I see MSSL as being mostly written for someone who's marriage is falling apart due to a lack of attraction on one end. But the ideas are still worthy for those of us who are in healthy stable relationships with good sex lives.
> 
> For me its been not so much about "alphaing up", but more about fine tuning the amount of and type beta to make her feel secure and happy in the relationship but without smothering her or giving the appearance of being too emotionally dependent.


180 is a tactic to use on cheaters, from a book called Divorce Busters. It's purpose is to completely remove ALL the benefits of being married to you, so that the other partner cuts contact with their affair partner. Horrible idea if you are not dealing with infidelity, as it involves essentially not talking to your spouse.

The MAP I feel is useful for any marriage. Improve yourself, and you can't go wrong.


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

How about a VAR on her Auto keychain and one by the phone just to see what is up. A keylogger would also be nice.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

COguy said:


> 180 is a tactic to use on cheaters, from a book called Divorce Busters. It's purpose is to completely remove ALL the benefits of being married to you, so that the other partner cuts contact with their affair partner. Horrible idea if you are not dealing with infidelity, as it involves essentially not talking to your spouse


Thank you. That was the point I was trying to make earlier and I wasn't trying to be critical.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

T&T said:


> Thank you. That was the point I was trying to make earlier and I wasn't trying to be critical.


Honestly I think AFEH described it better but thought I would add one more take to it.

The 180 has one specific instance it should be used, married to someone who is CURRENTLY cheating. Anything else would be a foolish use. Consider it the shock paddles, good only if someone's heart isn't beating, use it on the living and you will probably kill them.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> Then let me rephrase it as I did with my wife...
> 
> There needs to be a fulfilling, intimate sexual component in the marriage.


Ok, I agree with that as a statement. But not as a statement I would make to my partner as an ultimatum. The reason being I see the fulfilling, intimate sexual component as only being possible with mutual attraction. And I see attraction as something that happens in response to someone else's behavior, not something we choose as a matter of free will.

So, if I am attracted to my wife and she is not attracted back, then I would chose to change my behavior such that it becomes attractive to her. What I would not do is stamp my feet and hold my breath and insist that I am not having my sexual "needs" met. Because I know that her attraction to me is not like a light switch that she can just flip on and off on demand.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

T&T said:


> Thank you. That was the point I was trying to make earlier and I wasn't trying to be critical.


Sorry about that T&T, I often misread a person's intent. I'm a bit defensive because I introduced the 180 to TAM from Divorce Busting® - How to Save Your Marriage, Solve Marriage Problems, and Stop Divorce what seems like an age ago now. Guys at the time were being told their wife’s affair was their fault and to get them back they need to make a fuss of them, wine and dine them sort of thing. We had some truly marathon threads in Coping with Infidelity of over eighty pages and more based on the woo her back process. And guess what? It never seemed to work and the people championing the process would not come up with one case study where it did.

But if the husband is the main breadwinner doing a truly effective 180 is next to impossible as someone has to pay the mortgage and utilities etc. Services which the breadwinner provides for his cheating wife that he can’t turn off.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

COguy said:


> 180 is a tactic to use on cheaters, from a book called Divorce Busters. It's purpose is to completely remove ALL the benefits of being married to you, so that the other partner cuts contact with their affair partner. Horrible idea if you are not dealing with infidelity, as it involves essentially not talking to your spouse.


That's refreshing to read, because that's certainly not how I see it applied on TAM. It might be common in the CWI section to suggest the 180, but I only rarely stop by there. I see the 180 being thrown around as a first option to a whole host of marital issues all over the rest of TAM.

The original context of the 180 really brings some much needed context to the concept (though, on a purely personal level, I still have a tough time wondering why I'd be running anything but divorce papers by a cheating spouse).


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jaquen said:


> That's refreshing to read, because that's certainly not how I see it applied on TAM. It might be common in the CWI section to suggest the 180, but I only rarely stop by there. I see the 180 being thrown around as a first option to a whole host of marital issues all over the rest of TAM.
> 
> The original context of the 180 really brings some much needed context to the concept (though, on a purely personal level, I still have a tough time wondering why I'd be running anything but divorce papers by a cheating spouse).


I am not sure I see that. What I do see (and often counsel) is turning things down and focusing on yourself more. If your spouse is not meeting your needs, it is unreasonable for them to expect you to meet their every need. So, you pull back a bit, focus more on yourself, and make sure it is clear to your spouse what you are doing and why. You let them know that because they are not interested in meeting your needs, you need to do it and therefore will not be able to work as hard to meet their needs. It is aligning your actions with your words. It is not a complete disengagement, but rather a rebalancing of the effort you are putting into the relationship.

The 180 is about doing nothing for them. I actually disagree that it is a tool to get a cheating spouse back. It is in fact is a tool to help you disengage and move-on from your spouse. It does have the side benefit of sometimes making you more attractive to your spouse and waking them up from their affair. But to do it right, it needs to be done with the goal of disengaging.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am not sure I see that. What I do see (and often counsel) is turning things down and focusing on yourself more. If your spouse is not meeting your needs, it is unreasonable for them to expect you to meet their every need. So, you pull back a bit, focus more on yourself, and make sure it is clear to your spouse what you are doing and why. You let them know that because they are not interested in meeting your needs, you need to do it and therefore will not be able to work as hard to meet their needs. It is aligning your actions with your words. It is not a complete disengagement, but rather a rebalancing of the effort you are putting into the relationship.
> 
> The 180 is about doing nothing for them. I actually disagree that it is a tool to get a cheating spouse back. It is in fact is a tool to help you disengage and move-on from your spouse. It does have the side benefit of sometimes making you more attractive to your spouse and waking them up from their affair. But to do it right, it needs to be done with the goal of disengaging.


There’re many things in life we don’t understand until we actually have the need to use them. It’s at that time that “information becomes knowledge”. Information is very easy come by, we get it from websites and books. We only ever get knowledge through actual experience. And sometimes that experience is very hard won.

When a marriage has gone upside down and is about to be wrecked sometimes it’s any port in a storm and make it work. Like you I think the 180 is one such tool.



As far as the 180 being a tool to get a cheating wife back, the tool is from Divorce Busters and I somehow very much doubt they’d design and recommend a tool that didn’t actually help a couple stay together.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

jaquen said:


> That's refreshing to read, because that's certainly not how I see it applied on TAM. It might be common in the CWI section to suggest the 180, but I only rarely stop by there. *I see the 180 being thrown around as a first option to a whole host of marital issues all over the rest of TAM.*
> 
> The original context of the 180 really brings some much needed context to the concept (though, on a purely personal level, I still have a tough time wondering why I'd be running anything but divorce papers by a cheating spouse).


Massive over generalisation. Is there nothing here that you can see is good?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

jaquen said:


> That's refreshing to read, because that's certainly not how I see it applied on TAM. It might be common in the CWI section to suggest the 180, but I only rarely stop by there. I see the 180 being thrown around as a first option to a whole host of marital issues all over the rest of TAM.
> 
> The original context of the 180 really brings some much needed context to the concept (*though, on a purely personal level, I still have a tough time wondering why I'd be running anything but divorce papers by a cheating spouse*).


You've a 50/50 chance of it happening to you. A spin of the coin. 
If it ever does then you will understand this stuff.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Massive over generalisation. Is there nothing here that you can see is good?


I'm sorry, what? You're now trying to dictate to me what my own experience on TAM is?

What's wrong with you? You seem to oscillate between sound, and reasonable, and then BAM, out of nowhere comes the irrational and absolutely inane.


AFEH said:


> You've a 50/50 chance of it happening to you. A spin of the coin.
> If it ever does then you will understand this stuff.


No I don't have a 50/50 chance of finding out. Every single person does not walk around with a 50% chance at cheating on their spouse.

Regardless this is inconsequential. If my wife cheated on me, it would be over. There would be no use for a 180, or any other attempts to draw her back in. Adultery is the marriage breaker for me, and she's well aware of my feelings on the matter. It would kill me to not have her in my life, but it would be worse to stay in a marriage where the trust is gone.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

jaquen said:


> No I don't have a 50/50 chance of finding out. Every single person does not walk around with a 50% chance at cheating on their spouse.
> 
> Regardless this is inconsequential. *If my wife cheated on me, it would be over. *There would be no use for a 180, or any other attempts to draw her back in. Adultery is the marriage breaker for me, and she's well aware of my feelings on the matter. It would kill me to not have her in my life, but it would be worse to stay in a marriage where the trust is gone.


That’s information you have. It isn’t knowledge. You only get knowledge when it actually happens to you. When you experience it for yourself. After that rule of yours has been tested.

Most of us have one rule or another about what we’d do if our wife cheated on us. We only know what we’d actually do when that rule is tested by discovering her in an affair. Everything else is just talk and posturing, look at me stuff.


When you’re faced with becoming a part time father, losing half or more than you’ve worked years to accrue let alone losing the love of your life, the woman you made vows to about in sickness and in health, in good times and in bad and actually meant them things look very different.

Life has it’s very own strange way of testing those who say things like “If it ever happens to me I will divorce her”. You might want to keep your head down with that sort of stuff.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I see the 180 being thrown around as a first option to a whole host of marital issues all over the rest of TAM.


Even though I've only been here a short while, I agree with this and think people don't understand that it's just for people that have been cheated on. That's why I posted what I did earlier in this thread. I think it needs to be made VERY clear that's it's just for that situation and none other. People could be destroying their marriage without even knowing...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

AFEH said:


> That’s information you have. It isn’t knowledge. You only get knowledge when it actually happens to you. When you experience it for yourself. After that rule of yours has been tested.
> 
> Most of us have one rule or another about what we’d do if our wife cheated on us. We only know what we’d actually do when that rule is tested by discovering her in an affair. Everything else is just talk and posturing, look at me stuff.
> 
> ...


Give me the credit of knowing myself a bit better than you.

I come from a background where infidelity in the adults around me was prevalent, and I've seen, and lived with the consequences, of it's debilitating effects.

I also know my wife. For her to cheat, specifically, would not only devastate me, but it would devastate how I see her. There is nothing that exists inside of me that would be open to staying with the woman I adore if she's been out spreading it for other men. To reconcile would change the very core, nature, and purpose behind why we married, and I have less than zero interest in the kind of reconciled, trust-less, quasi-healed kind of marriage you often see after adultery has been discovered.

Adultery kills a lot of marriages. Many men do NOT stay with a woman who has cheated on them. You go on as though it were common for most men to stay with women who cheat. Heck, from even a biblical standpoint, adultery was given as the ultimate marriage destroyer, outside of death.

So no, I say with utter, complete, and total confidence, as I told my wife long before we were married, if she cheated, I am gone.

No 180.
No marital counseling. 
No begging, pleading, or groveling.

Just divorce.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

T&T said:


> Even though I've only been here a short while, I agree with this and think people don't understand that it's just for people that have been cheated on. That's why I posted what I did earlier in this thread. I think it needs to be made VERY clear that's it's just for that situation and none other. People could be destroying their marriage without even knowing...


Thank you for reiterating what I, and quite a few others, know to be true here on TAM.

The 180 is doled out liberally, and in many situations where cheating is not even mentioned.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Thank you for reiterating what I, and quite a few others, know to be true here on TAM.
> 
> The 180 is doled out liberally, and in many situations where cheating is not even mentioned.


I think people are just using 180 as a synonym for MAP, like I was, out of ignorance, I don't think they are actually recommending the "Divorce Busters" approach of cutting the spouse off completely.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

AFEH said:


> As far as the 180 being a tool to get a cheating wife back, the tool is from Divorce Busters and I somehow very much doubt they’d design and recommend a tool that didn’t actually help a couple stay together.


Fair enough. I am sure that was their intent. It does seem to me, based on my observation of its implimentation in the CWI forum, that it is least effective when it is used specifically for the purpose of getting the cheating spouse back because that tends to come across as manipulative. The most effective use appears to be when someone uses the 180 as a method to protect and strengthen themselves.

Having said all of that, I recognize that the plural of anecdote is not data.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

An example of the 180 being suggested again when there's not any cheating going on...The poster was corrected, but it happens a lot on TAM, from what I can see. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...e-after-having-sex-my-wife-2.html#post1278843


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

T&T said:


> An example of the 180 being suggested again when there's not any cheating going on...The poster was corrected, but it happens a lot on TAM, from what I can see.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...e-after-having-sex-my-wife-2.html#post1278843


I'm kind of "So what?".


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