# Roxanne... the Expedition... shudders on the highway



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Ok... I've been having coil problems in my truck. Had #1, 2 (twice) and #3 replaced the past couple of months, plus all spark plugs, good oil change, and ran heet in the gas tank. But...

My truck was smooth for a little while but then started doing a rough idle first thing in the morning that would smooth out after she warmed up, but has now developed into a shudder on the interstate at 70mph as well as will idle smooth after she warms up but still will jerk in the engine occasionally. Engine light is not on, so it's not throwing any codes yet. Any ideas?

And yes, ever since my son was born I name my vehicles with him. Last one was Bessie Mae... this one is Roxanne  2003 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer 5.4L 4 x 4. 183K miles


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok... I've been having coil problems in my truck. Had #1, 2 (twice) and #3 replaced the past couple of months, plus all spark plugs, good oil change, and ran heet in the gas tank. But...
> 
> My truck was smooth for a little while but then started doing a rough idle first thing in the morning that would smooth out after she warmed up, but has now developed into a shudder on the interstate at 70mph as well as will idle smooth after she warms up but still will jerk in the engine occasionally. Engine light is not on, so it's not throwing any codes yet. Any ideas?
> 
> And yes, ever since my son was born I name my vehicles with him. Last one was Bessie Mae... this one is Roxanne  1993 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer 5.4L 4 x 4. 183K miles


Lol I call my truck Betty


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok... I've been having coil problems in my truck. Had #1, 2 (twice) and #3 replaced the past couple of months, plus all spark plugs, good oil change, and ran heet in the gas tank. But...
> 
> My truck was smooth for a little while but then started doing a rough idle first thing in the morning that would smooth out after she warmed up, but has now developed into a shudder on the interstate at 70mph as well as will idle smooth after she warms up but still will jerk in the engine occasionally. Engine light is not on, so it's not throwing any codes yet. Any ideas?
> 
> And yes, ever since my son was born I name my vehicles with him. Last one was Bessie Mae... this one is Roxanne  1993 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer 5.4L 4 x 4. 183K miles


Let me preface by saying I don't know what the problem is, but I want to point out that it's not necessarily all one problem, it could be several problems that by coincidence or cascade effect are occurring together. 

That being said a little basic troubleshooting may eliminate some possibilities. So a few suggestions:

Before running the engine after sitting over night, pull each plug and examine for oil.

Clean the mass air flow sensor. Carefully. Using actual mass airflow sensor cleaner, available at any auto parts store.

And I'll repeat this as I know it was suggested to you but don't know if you did it: Run the engine in the dark and look for sparks. Preferable while it's idling rough. If you see a spark shine a flashlight on it to see what it's coming from. Needs to be really dark, twilight won't work.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

You are right and it could be a blend of problems.


My truck had settled down after the last coil repair, so I did not look for the sparks, but will when I head to the barn tonight. 

I found some things online that may help my mechanic too that I spoke to today... right now we are all trying to piece it together. 

Thanks for giving details on that.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok... I've been having coil problems in my truck. Had #1, 2 (twice) and #3 replaced the past couple of months, plus all spark plugs, good oil change, and ran heet in the gas tank. But...
> 
> My truck was smooth for a little while but then started doing a rough idle first thing in the morning that would smooth out after she warmed up, but has now developed into a shudder on the interstate at 70mph as well as will idle smooth after she warms up but still will jerk in the engine occasionally. Engine light is not on, so it's not throwing any codes yet. Any ideas?
> 
> And yes, ever since my son was born I name my vehicles with him. Last one was Bessie Mae... this one is Roxanne  1993 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer 5.4L 4 x 4. 183K miles


Divorce.




:smthumbup:


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And dna test the truck. Not because you doubt it's a ford, but to send a message.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> And dna test the truck. Not because you doubt it's a ford, but to send a message.


Yes! And VAR the mechanic's shop!


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

There is nothing more annoying that having automobile difficulties.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXzFCS72QIA It could be many things, but my best guess would be a front end issue. If the Engine runs ok, no "service engine soon " light comes on,and it shudders or wobbles going down the road.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Found
Off
Road
Dead

Fix
Or
Repair
Daily

Intake air flow mass sensor. I'd replace it. Just a crappy piece of wire with a price tag.

As for looking for spark. Yes. Also look for a blue constant light might look like the blue color from your kitchen stove as opposed to spark too. Very small. It's not a fire, but a small bluish constant spark.

(While there, ask the mechanic to check the bell housing clapper and water pump handle). --> jokes...


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I name my cars, too.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Q tip said:


> Found
> Off
> Road
> Dead
> ...


$140 from autozone vs a can of cleaner for $9.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

The "shudder" at speed kind of sounds like the struts to me.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

It is definitely not the front end... struts,suspension type of thing... this shudder is in the engine.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:rofl:

I'm tellin' ya... if she doesn't straighten up I'm bootin' her out...

LOL

GMC here I come....


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> :rofl:
> 
> I'm tellin' ya... if she doesn't straighten up I'm bootin' her out...
> 
> ...


Garage 
Mechanics
Companion


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> $140 from autozone vs a can of cleaner for $9.


Yah,

My old car liked new parts... choked on the cleaner. you're right though. try the cleaner first.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Lol.. so what truck to buy that is reliable that will haul at least 9000 lbs


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Roxanne...you don't have to turn on that red engine liiiight.

That's my way of saying I don't know duff about fixin' trucks.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

Blossom Leigh said:


> . . . . And yes, ever since my son was born I name my vehicles with him. Last one was Bessie Mae... this one is Roxanne  1993 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer 5.4L 4 x 4. 183K miles


LOL, we made that mistake. I now drive in a vehicle named “Fluffy”.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

And I don't know why I said 1993.. this is a 2003.

Lost a decade in there... Lol


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

I would start by using a spray bottle and check the plug wires at both ends when it is dark out. My next move would be to check and make sure the pipe from the exhaust manifold to the EGR valve is not rotten(if not working correctly you will have a lean condition/miss fire/detonation/pinging/) could also be the EVP sensor (on top of the EGR valve, the EGR valve could be stuck/blocked, possible fuel filter, throttle position sensor(TPS).

Also check all your vacuum lines for leaks. A good vacuum guage/pump is a handy tool for this as well as for testing sensors. 
You said it isn't throwing any codes yet. Does your tester show real time diagnostics? 
Have you checked/replaced the air filter? 
I had a 98 f150 that would shudder/miss fire quite often. The #2spark plug due to it's location is in a spot where water tends to collect.

Just a few things to check.


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

Also check the coolant temperature sensor


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

I've been a member on a ford truck forum, the consensus there is to stick with MOTORCRAFT spark plugs.


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

I'm lucky!! It was only my rear brakes that started grinding today. Heading out for parts after I have my coffee. 
Good luck with Roxanne
I call my truck ol' ugly


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Yay! thenub... You are bringing up things I found online today. I knew somebody here has had exposure to this.

From what I can tell, the diagnostic scanners used so far are not real time. They look basic to me. But saw where one may be needed to pinpoint this issue. Haven't priced one.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> Let me preface by saying I don't know what the problem is, but I want to point out that it's not necessarily all one problem, it could be several problems that by coincidence or cascade effect are occurring together.
> 
> That being said a little basic troubleshooting may eliminate some possibilities. So a few suggestions:
> 
> ...



No blue spark.. not that I could tell. Had to stand on a hay bale to be high enough to see down in the engine.. lol


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Have you tried the key dance despite no engine light? I'm not sure what Ford's key dance is but I know dodge/Chrysler/Jeep is 5 times. If there is a code, it pops up on the speedometer with a letter and 4 numbers that you can look up online.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

http://www.ehow.com/how_6562799_check-trouble-codes-ignition-switch.html


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

I use one of these I got off of eBay. It links via wifi/Bluetooth to my iPhone.


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=110975956961


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

Make sure your mechanic also checks the fuel pressure.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Key dance did not produce anything. Will check out the scanner on ebay. Hope they make one for Android. That would be great!!


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

Here's one for android
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=131256977103


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

BAFX Products - Bluetooth OBD2 scan tool - For check engine light & diagnostics - Android ONLY https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005NLQAHS/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_wXx0ub1MS6K8X

Thinking about getting this one


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

That should work just fine. I have the smaller white one which I just leave plugged into the port all the time. I always know where it is and if I ever have a problem when I'm driving I can read the codes right away


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Hi brook mom


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Hi


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I have the scanner on its way


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

It always feels good buying tools. The only problem is finding room for all of them. 
When dealing with miss fires always start with the easiest things to check, ie; wires, plugs, vacuum lines. 
It is well with having a repair manual and a good digital volt/ohm meter(10m ohm for automotive use) can be had for under $20.00 this in conjunction with a hand vacuum pump will make testing sensors possible.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

#3 coil threw a code this morning... At the shop now


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

augh.... that was frustrating... the #3 cylinder had enough water in it from the engine sweating to cause major rough idling. The coil isn't bad, just bad design to not deal with water collecting around that part. This mechanic is advising me to get rid of this truck. 

Not sure what I'm going to do... may drive a grandpa car for a while til I'm ready to get another truck... Roxanne is a high maintenance broad... I need to unload her soon I guess... This is not what I signed up for... lol


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I'm glad you figured it out. 

I had a Chevy van which developed the same kind of shudder at highway speeds. After several trips to different shops, and probably $1000 in various repairs, it ran nice and smooth until getting up to highway speeds. It was some kind of valve problem but would cost more to drop the engine and pull the heads than the whole van was worth, so I just lived with it for another year until something else died and turned the van to scrap.

I suspect one of my daughter's boyfriends over revved it and flattened valve springs or otherwise damaged the valve train.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

This is a Ford design problem from what the mechanics are telling me. Their 7.3 engine doesn't do this, but the others do


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> This is a Ford design problem from what the mechanics are telling me. * Their 7.3 engine* doesn't do this, but the others do


It'll fit. You might just need a bigger hammer, but I'm sure it will go in there.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> It'll fit. You might just need a bigger hammer, but I'm sure it will go in there.


lol....


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

thenub said:


> I had a 98 f150 that would shudder/miss fire quite often. The #2spark plug due to it's location is in a spot where water tends to collect.


Why was that.... what was causing the water?

My OBDII sensor is in and I ran it yesterday.. it would throw a pending code of #2 coil. That has been dried of water and replaced twice. #3 had water dried out of it and it's working fine. We have drier humidity today and the truck is running fine. Please tell me this is not a humidity condensation problem. 

I ran this truck for over a year with NO problems.

Makes me think the water collection in coil #1, 2 & 3 is a water leak coming from somewhere..

Did you fix the water collection issue in your F150?


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## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

check the module that the coil packs bolt to, they are made out of plastic and can crack and bust the wires running through them. you can take the module off and they can check it at auto zone.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

the rough idle goes away when water is out of the coils...


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

On my truck the water collected in the hole the spark pluck is located in. It would cause arcing between the plug wire and the cylinder head, giving a false coil code. I changed the plug wire and coated both end with an excessive amount of dielectric grease. Never had the problem again.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Very cool... my H had a similar thought about repelling the water without being a car guru last night.. so I am happy to hear there is something out there that can deal with this water issue from a car person. I feel if it is handled, Roxanne will be a happy girl. My H's has deeper talents than he realizes.. 


Thanks nub


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

If this is coil over plug design which part would you grease?

This thing will start missing wihtout the check engine light, but will throw a pending code on my new OBDII scanner. Then as days rock on and more water collects it throws a check engine light. Blow out the water... good again. Water gets in the cylinder the coil is inserted into.


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

Disconnect the wires going into the coil, apply dielectric grease to both side of the connection. Remove the coil assembly from the spark plug and with a long, thin blade screwdriver push a liberal amount of grease up into the boot. Ensure all connections are tight and you should be good to go. 
My truck would miss fire for a couple days before the check engine light would come on. It would, as yours, show a pending code.


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

Another you could do, after using the dielectric grease is to cut a square of rubber(a piece of old inner tube) large enough to cover the coil and plug assembly and affix it with a couple wire ties to try divert any water away from the coil.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

thenub said:


> Another you could do, after using the dielectric grease is to cut a square of rubber(a piece of old inner tube) large enough to cover the coil and plug assembly and affix it with a couple wire ties to try divert any water away from the coil.


This is what I've been brainstorming on. You would think Ford would have offered an after market part to deal with this issue like this, something to divert water. So thanks for this idea. My mechanic said the engine "sweats" so the dielectric grease would be the only answer if thats the case. Thanks a million!


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I'm a shadetree mechanic, and just recently went through a project F250 with the 5.4 V8. I'm not aware of any "sweating" issues that cause coil failures (and frankly that sound pretty bogus to me), but I did discover that the 5.4 likes to have ALL of the coils replaced at one time. When I tried to do them piecemeal (one or two that were bad), they would cause others to go bad. The fix was to just do them all at the same time.

Additionally, some of the aftermarket coils are known to be cheap/defective. That could easily cause quick failures for multiple replacements. 

Also, if the spark plugs have not been checked, they can cause quick coil failures as well. The 5.4 V8 is also known for breaking spark plugs in the hole (which then kills the coil if run too long in that condition).


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

In that fix, the water remains... I have watched my mechanic literally blow water out of the cylinder, put the coil back in and she'll run great. So replacing them all at the same time leaves the water unaddressed. Right now she is running decent, but as soon as I can she's getting dielectic grease swabbed on her coils.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Blow water out of the cylinder??? Or out of the spark plug well (on top of the spark plug)?

If in the cylinder, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax (head gasket, rusted coolant jacket in the block). If in the well, there are a few things that can be done.

The first and most obvious is eliminate the source of the water. You need to determine if it is actually water, or if it is coolant of some kind. There seems to be support for both of these occurrences in similar events online.

If coolant, the leak needs to be found. Even a pinhole leak, if the steam/water is condensing on the plugs, could quickly cause this problem. It should smell "sweet" if this is the case (not sure if you've ever smelled hot coolant, I don't mean to condescend).

If water, then something is "sweating" from a temperature difference, and this can usually be abated/reduced/rerouted using some insulating material. A/C lines are frequently noted to be sweating, if any of these run near that spark plug, then putting some tubular insulation on the line with the split facing up will redirect the runoff somewhere else.

In particular, the #3 coil appears to have coolant introduced from a faulty heater hose connection to the intake manifold (Clicky to see topic There are a few videos out there for replacing this hose, if the connection has rotted out it needs a new intake manifold.

On the "cheap cheap" side - getting a lot of dielectric grease under the "boot" that seals the plug onto the valve cover could help in the short term (the larger flat circle of rubber under the coil part, above the long thin part that goes down in the well). Another cheap method to help with keeping the water out is to wrap some electrical tape at the top of the thin long part, so that when the wire boot sets down in the well, the tape at the neck will squeeze the sides of the well.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I live in high humidity environment, so its a possible factor I would think..

The intake manifold is on my radar.

All I know is he pulled out the coil and whatever hole that its called.. I thought it was a cylinder, he blew water out of it with his air compressor line. I was too short to see too far into the engine.

Yes I have smelled hot coolant in the past, just not on this truck. I haven't smelled it in this case but will make sure to smell for it next time there is fluid around a coil just to double check.

I've heard/read that AC lines affect mostly coil #8. Do they sweat in the winter?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Yes, that would just be the spark plug well. The cylinder would be if he had pulled the spark plug out as well - then there is a hole all the way down to the piston (which is in the cylinder).

A/C lines can sweat anytime there is sufficient humidity, which can happen in the winter, but if it is below freezing there shouldn't be enough. That would indicate away, but it's still something I'd look at (if there aren't any A/C lines near the plugs, it's a moot point as well).

I'd be looking for the coolant leak. Sometimes they are hard to see. I like to use the "paper trick". Get a normal piece of notebook paper, and with the truck running and warmed up all the way pass it along/around all of the places hoses are or could be. Eventually, if you have a leak, the paper will soak up water mist/spray/leak there is. Since you know some if accumulates near that spark plug well, you can start near there.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Thats a cool idea... Thanks!


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

You could also be greeting spray from the tires coming into the engine compartment when driving in wet weather. 
On my truck, it was always the #2 cylinder that threw a code.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Sure, there are so many possibilities since the durn things sit straight up and down with no cover... Makes total sense to me it could come from that. Its been 1,2 & 3 on this truck.

We rarely get below freezing and we have wide temp swings. I think this environment is going to make her tempermental. Its why I loved tbe tip aboit dielectric grease


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Dielectic grease isn't preventing this coil#2 code now... From talking locally and online study, its looking like this could be a head gasket leak. My mechanic is going to check a few other things, but I'm preparing myself for the head gasket news. Has anyone here used either K& W Engine Block Seal or Bar's Leak Head Gasket successfully?

It looks like the K & W is the better of the two. 

From what I'm reading its easier to put in a new engine that have a gasket repair done labor wise. 

What IS obvious is changing the coils was just the bandaid to a deeper problem. If it is a head gasket issue, something is causing an overheating problem. So, if he says head gasket issue, I'm leaning towards doing the K & W, find the over heat issue and put my money there and see if it buys me good enough time to get rid of this thing... who knows.. I love my truck, but she is beating me up right now..


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Nickel and dime-ing you to death as it were. 

Current symptoms are overheating and shudder? Do not bother with the K&W. It is nothing more than something to prolong the agony of the proper repair of the head gasket. What year is the offending Ford product? 

I do not see having a head gasket replaced as opposed to a complete engine swap as less expensive. The cost of the replacement engine is still involved. The question remains, how many miles are on the current engine? A blown head gasket will cause misfire and overheat. Depending how bad of a leak antifreeze finds it's way to the crankcase oil and will ruin the main bearings on the crank.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok... I've been having coil problems in my truck. Had #1, 2 (twice) and #3 replaced the past couple of months, plus all spark plugs, good oil change, and ran heet in the gas tank. But...
> 
> My truck was smooth for a little while but then started doing a rough idle first thing in the morning that would smooth out after she warmed up, but has now developed into a shudder on the interstate at 70mph as well as will idle smooth after she warms up but still will jerk in the engine occasionally. Engine light is not on, so it's not throwing any codes yet. Any ideas?
> 
> And yes, ever since my son was born I name my vehicles with him. Last one was Bessie Mae... this one is Roxanne  2003 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer 5.4L 4 x 4. 183K miles


I see the mileage here. She is getting to the point if not there already for a replacement engine. The timing chain and gears are more than likely stretched and loose. At this mileage IMO, the engine is on borrowed time.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

A stretched timing chain? I thought the reason for a timing chain was because they dont stretch.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> A stretched timing chain? I thought the reason for a timing chain was because they dont stretch.


They stretch. Also, the gear for the cam is covered with nylon. This keeps the chain quiet. The nylon will fail over time. The chain will jump teeth. Or you might have the set up were a nylon buffer keeps the chain taunt. This buffer will wear down over a period of time. The chain become lose. The timing will be all over the map. 

You coil #2 is probably kicking a failure due to misfire. Possibly spurned by the possible head gasket leak.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> They stretch. Also, the gear for the cam is covered with nylon. This keeps the chain quiet. The nylon will fail over time. The chain will jump teeth. Or you might have the set up were a nylon buffer keeps the chain taunt. This buffer will wear down over a period of time. The chain become lose. The timing will be all over the map.
> 
> You coil #2 is probably kicking a failure due to misfire. Possibly spurned by the possible head gasket leak.


I think thats where this is headed too. Thanks for the info.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

You could convert to electric. Start with this. Think of the money you'll save.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> You could convert to electric. Start with this. Think of the money you'll save.


Lol... not sure it would haul my horses


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Note the tensioner for the 2003 5.4 Ford engine. Each chain has a tensioner. These are nylon and last a long time generally but at your mileage these become a concern. So, with that said, head gasket issue and overheating what to do? For me, time to turn the pony out to pasture.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Lol... It won't haul my horses


You are pulling a horse trailer? If so, yes, the chain will stretch over time. Again, for me and the safety of the the horses(if mine) I would look to find a newer vehicle.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I must comment, if you ever need to formulate an online dating profile this post is hot Add a picture or two to show you do not resemble Brunhilda and your success is assured




Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok... I've been having coil problems in my truck. Had #1, 2 (twice) and #3 replaced the past couple of months, plus all spark plugs, good oil change, and ran heet in the gas tank. But...
> 
> My truck was smooth for a little while but then started doing a rough idle first thing in the morning that would smooth out after she warmed up, but has now developed into a shudder on the interstate at 70mph as well as will idle smooth after she warms up but still will jerk in the engine occasionally. Engine light is not on, so it's not throwing any codes yet. Any ideas?
> 
> And yes, ever since my son was born I name my vehicles with him. Last one was Bessie Mae... this one is Roxanne  2003 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer 5.4L 4 x 4. 183K miles


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> You are pulling a horse trailer? If so, yes, the chain will stretch over time. Again, for me and the safety of the the horses(if mine) I would look to find a newer vehicle.


I had not pulled on yet with this truck, but someone before me could have. I bought it for the capacity to haul a horse trailer since it will haul 8900#'s, but is still a large SUV, which I prefer. 

So if problems were going to show up, I'm VERY glad they showed up unloaded instead of loaded with precious cargo for sure. So I agree with you.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> I had not pulled on yet with this truck, but someone before me could have. I bought it for the capacity to haul a horse trailer since it will haul 8900#'s, but is still a large SUV, which I prefer.
> 
> So if problems were going to show up, I'm VERY glad they showed up unloaded instead of loaded with precious cargo for sure. So I agree with you.


My sister and BIL have horses. Their daughter barrel races them. I can say this about his Ford Super Duty diesel...it blows more things(injectors) than a ***** house on dollar day. Once it blew an injector heading out to Wyoming. Four times this diesel blew an injector. It is fortunate there are folks that care enough to fetch the trailer and put the horses up in their pasture while the darn truck is repaired.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

anonmd said:


> I must comment, if you ever need to formulate an online dating profile this post is hot Add a picture or two to show you do not resemble Brunhilda and your success is assured


lol... I'll keep that in mind, but I pray that is never the case.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> My sister and BIL have horses. Their daughter barrel races them. I can say this about his Ford Super Duty diesel...it blows more things(injectors) than a ***** house on dollar day. Once it blew an injector heading out to Wyoming. Four times this diesel blew an injector. It is fortunate there are folks that care enough to fetch the trailer and put the horses up in their pasture while the darn truck is repaired.


I am so glad you shared that... I was kind of under this false impression that the heavy duty trucks were "built to last" .... lol...

I'm beginning to think nothing is built to last these days...

Maybe my great grandfather was spot on when he pulled his first car back to the dealership with his mules to return it when it ran out of gas. lol.... 

I know that man's blood runs in my veins.. if I had my choice I would ride everywhere on my horses.

They used to haul US around... now we haul THEM around... so wrong.

I should have been born Amish...lol


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> I should have been born Amish...lol


My experience with the Amish, and not all of them, they view horses(animals) as nothing but tools to use until exhausted. Puppy mills...you get the picture. 

It appears your view of animals are far different than the Amish. Stay Blossom Leigh.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> My experience with the Amish, and not all of them, they view horses(animals) as nothing but tools to use until exhausted.  Puppy mills...you get the picture.
> 
> It appears your view of animals are far different than the Amish. Stay Blossom Leigh.


Doesn't surprise me about the Amish. My views on animals are very different. My horses were the catalyst to me learning now to stand up to abuse in my life. Paradigm shift....


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Doesn't surprise me about the Amish. My views on animals are very different. My horses were the catalyst to me learning now to stand up to abuse in my life. Paradigm shift....


By and large most folks will spend their last penny on their pet. Even before themselves. Pet Smart is a multi-billion operation. My W spoils our dogs and ****atiels. The ****atiels need to go though. 

Anyway, your truck. She is getting up there. At that mileage vehicles like to nickel and dime you to death.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Vehicles nickle and dime one way or another anyway... I hate the necessary evils. So, I don't know which direction I'm going to head after this one. I typically like paying cash for low mileage rides, but that gets difficult as expensive as trucks are. I rolled the dice on a high mileage one and lost this bet.

I don't go over board with our pets, but we take good care of them.

C0ckateils are gorgeous.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> C0ckateils are gorgeous.



Loud, obnoxious, messy and generally a pain in the arse. At least Wilson(male). He got the name Wilson from the movie Castaway. Hanks screams at his ball Wilson. Well..you get the picture how the loud beaked Wilson got his name. He is a good looking bird though. Nellie is quiet and generally a great bird.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> Loud, obnoxious, messy and generally a pain in the arse. At least Wilson(male). He got the name Wilson from the movie Castaway. Hanks screams at his ball Wilson. Well..you get the picture how the loud beaked Wilson got his name. He is a good looking bird though. Nellie is quiet and generally a great bird.



lol! thats funny! awwww... sweet Nellie

I bet he is! The truly are stunning.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Lol... not sure it would haul my horses


You apparently didn't look at the stats. Twice the hp and almost twice the torque of what you have now. And they're small enough you could mount one on each wheel. You could have it converted to 4 wheel motors for around $250k. Of course, you'd have to give up all but the drivers seat and fill it up with batteries, but hey, sacrifices must be made and you'd probably be able to do wheelies with the horse trailer in tow. And of course, it's completely worth doing to a 12 year old suv. :smthumbup:


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

1.) Head gasket repair should cost nowhere NEAR as much as an engine replacement (unless you're talking best professional shop around for the head gasket vs. having a junkyard mechanic swap in an already tired motor).
2.) For the couple with the ever-exploding injector Ford. They need to get their fuel pressure checked. A simple failure on the powerstrokes that eats injectors until rectified. $65 1 hour fix. Not the engine or vehicle's fault if the real problem is never fixed.
3.) A head gasket leak should show up on a hot shutdown coolant pressure test. If this passes, it is highly unlikely that you have a head gasket leak - and most professional mechanics should be able to perform this test. Another option is to get the ph of the coolant checked (they have little dip papers for doing this yourself).
4.) It is not inherently "safer" to tow with a newer vehicle. Consider that the "best" quality new vehicles are taken back to the dealership for warranty work on the order of >100 instances per 100 vehicles. Some older vehicles have "all of the bugs worked out". Any vehicle can die, particularly if it hasn't been taken care of. Also, "lemons" exist. 
5.) Has the wiring for the ignition system been thoroughly checked out? With continued failures on the same coils, another possibility is that the wiring has gotten brittle over the years of service, and you have a wire with an intermittent break you can't see. Usually wiring is relatively inexpensive, it is finding the actual break that can be an issue. A mechanically/electrically inclined person could help you by doing a resistance check on the associated wiring.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

My mechanic is going to check all the "other" things it could be including the wiring when they can get me a loaner car. Should hear back from him today.


And I wasn't meaning that a head gasket repair is more than a new engine... my thought was as expensive as it is I might as well bite the whole bullet and get a new engine and the "easier" was not meant about money, but labor.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Verdict... Either cracked head or head gasket letting coolant leak onto the #2 spark plug. Question is repair this truck which is is great shape otherwise or get rid of it.


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## FatherofTwo (Dec 6, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Verdict... Either cracked head or head gasket letting coolant leak onto the #2 spark plug. Question is repair this truck which is is great shape otherwise or get rid of it.


What's the estimate of the repairs ?? I don't think it's gonna be cheap with what it's being diagnosed for but not matter what that price is ........... it'll still be less than monthly payments on another car !? Good luck !!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Probably $1500 to $2000


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## FatherofTwo (Dec 6, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Probably $1500 to $2000


That's actually not that bad IMHO

$2k to fix and then have a truck that's in great shape again with no monthly payments ?? I'd go for it ......... that new car smell doesnt last long but the payments do !!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

There is also this 

Permanent Metallic™ Block Seal Head Gasket Repair, 16 Wt Oz - Product Information

Yea, I hate car payments


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

If it was me I would spend the bucks and fix it UNLESS, there were significant oil leaks and /or significant oil consumption. I define significant for something with that many miles as needing to add more than 1 quart in 2000 miles. To me the oil consumption is potentially more serious than the leaving on the driveway leaks as those can be fixed (seals) but can be pricey too.

I am not a mechanic


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

She's not burning oil.

I have decided against the metal flake additive since other things can be clogged by them.

We are down to short lease on new car, no car and just deal with one til the end of the year or fix her. We are leaving her parked as much as possible until I can finalize my decision.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Good, the additive thing is for the desperate. No money, no options, dump it in and pray


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Your options would be to sell it or keep it. You can leave it as is or fix it. So there are 4 permutations there.

Sell as is.
Keep as is.
Fix and sell.
Fix and keep.

You can put together numbers for all of those options. Keeping it will cost various expenses including insurance, gas, and maintenance. Selling it will net you some money. If you sell it, I'd do the math and see which way nets the most, as is or repaired.

If you keep it as is and don't drive it much, you still incur insurance costs and have the risk of something major going wrong. We had a Chevy van which destructed over a period of a couple years, eventually becoming scrap with only 110,000 miles on it. 

So my vote is to fix it and keep it if you trust it is otherwise in good condition, or sell it.

If you can get by with only 1 vehicle without too much hassle, it could be a significant savings to you.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Not convinced its not the coil. Many people I know in construction have ford engines with eight dif coils over the sparkplugs. When one goes the rest are soon to follow.

If there is realm water in the cylinder, I think you should see signs in your motor oil. How well do you know your mechanic and how old is he?

WD 40 is water displacement 40th try. Spray it around the plug and blow it out with an air compressor.

If the coil has been recently replaced their is a good chance it was replaced with a bad part. Much junk on the market now days,(cough ........China).

My partners experience is the coils last about 60 to 80 thousand miles. When he first started having problems they were about 80 bucks a pop and the engine takes eight. One of Fords low points for sure. 

I've never heard of being able to blow water out of a cylinder because of a leak, that's a new one on me. Have you been adding coolant?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Blossom Leigh said:


> This is a Ford design problem from what the mechanics are telling me. Their 7.3 engine doesn't do this, but the others do


Given that the 7.3 is a diesel and it doesn't have coils, I'd hope not.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Not convinced its not the coil. Many people I know in construction have ford engines with eight dif coils over the sparkplugs. When one goes the rest are soon to follow.
> 
> If there is realm water in the cylinder, I think you should see signs in your motor oil. How well do you know your mechanic and how old is he?
> 
> ...


They did tests yesterday and dug into it deeper and found antifreeze in sparkplug #2.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I'd go with sell as is for minimizing the hassle. Figure out value, subtract *almost* what it would cost to fix it up. Some enterprising guy like me might pick it up to do the work and flip it (I do this frequently). Where ya at? ;-)


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I'd go with sell as is for minimizing the hassle. Figure out value, subtract *almost* what it would cost to fix it up. Some enterprising guy like me might pick it up to do the work and flip it (I do this frequently). Where ya at? ;-)


Bama

Food for though for sure


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Bama
> 
> Food for though for sure


You might also search about for some shadetree work. I'm a fan, as I do a lot of it myself. I generally charge half of any quote someone brings me. 

Too far for me, but the advice stands. I wouldn't put thousand into it and try and keep it. That's just flipping off Murphy...


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Surely a gynaecologist would be the best person to sort out your coil problems?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LOL... ok, just no...

I'm asking around locally too to help me finalize this decision. A local shop owner that goes to our church is doing some research for me right now. Waiting to hear. 

My ex knows a shade tree guy

Another master mechanic I've known for years in another town said he feels I would get many more miles out of it if I fixed it and kept it, he just isn't the man for the job.

If I can find a master mechanic in my town who has a great reputation who feels this fix is worth it, that is probably the route I will go. Otherwise, I will probably tap someone like ET1 and kiss Roxanne goodbye.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Latest opinion from local shop owner who can and has done this work before on this model truck frequently enough said that on these trucks you end up with either a 5.4 you barely have to do anything to or one like what I have, that at about 150,000 miles starts showing expensive issues. His opinion is if I'm going to spend close to $3000 to get this job done I might as well get a brand new engine with a _brand new warranty _for three years/75K to 100K milessince the $3000 job only comes with a warranty on that one part. Either that or get rid of it. 

Guess I've got some calculating to do.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

*And after hearing him say a head gasket repair definitely has risk involved and verifying online...* I'm down to new engine or get rid of her... guess its hubby talky time 

*HEAD GASKET REPLACEMENT TIPS*








The number one mistake to avoid when replacing a blown head gasket is to simply install a new gasket without checking or repairing anything else. In many instances, a blown head gasket is not the real problem but a symptom of some other underlying condition such as a hot spot, overheating or detonation. If the underlying problem is not identified and corrected, the new gasket will likely suffer the same fate as its predecessor. 
Always inspect the cylinder head for cracks or other problems when it is removed, especially if the engine overheated. Aluminum overhead cam heads are much more likely to warp and crack than cast iron heads when an engine gets too hot. If an OHC will not turn once the followers have been removed, the head is probably warped and will have to be straightened and/or align bored.
Cracks are not always visible to the naked eye. Porosity leaks in aluminum heads may not show up unless the cooling system is under pressure. To minimize the risk of a repeat gasket failure, cast iron heads should be Magnafluxed (magnetic crack detection) to check for cracks. Penetrating dye will reveal cracks in aluminum. Pressure testing is also an excellent method of detecting internal cracks and porosity leaks in both cast iron and aluminum.
The cylinder head and block should also be checked for flatness before the new head gasket is installed. Flatness specs vary depending on the application, but on most pushrod engines with cast iron heads, up to .003 inch (0.076 mm) out-of-flat lengthwise in V6 heads, .004 inch (0.102 mm) in four cylinder or V8 heads, and .006 inch (0.152 mm) in straight six cylinder heads is considered acceptable. Most aluminum heads, on the other hand, should have no more than .002 inch (.05 mm) out-of-flat in any direction. 
Aluminum OHC heads should be checked for flatness in two places: across the face of the head with a straight edge, and down the OHC cam bores with a straightedge or bar. 
If an OHC aluminum head requires resurfacing, the amount of metal that can be safely removed is usually quite limited. If a head has been resurfaced and the installed height is too short, cam timing can be adversely affected. Too much compression may also create detonation problems. To compensate, a copper or steel shim may be used with the head gasket to raise the head and restore proper head height (if available). Otherwise, the head may have to be replaced.
Surface finish is also very important. As a rule, most push rod engines with cast iron heads can handle a surface finish of anything between 54 to 113 microinches RA (60 to 125 RMS). But many aluminum OHC heads require a smoother finish to seal properly. Many late model Japanese engines have "multi-layered steel" (MLS) head gaskets that require a very smooth finish of 7 to 15 RA! Such heads should not be resurfaced unless the head is warped or the surface is damaged.
Finally, if the engine has torque-to-yield (TTY) head bolts, replace them. Reusing TTY bolts is risky because you have no way of knowing how far they are been stretched. Also, make sure you have the latest head bolt torque specs. Vehicle manufacturers often revise their original head bolt torque specs to correct problems that have arisen in the field. The new specs can be found in technical service bulletins (TSBs) from the manufacturers


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

That's why I say get rid of. At this point, with the mileage she's already got, you might put $3000 into her for the engine, and in 6 months the transmission goes. Then you go through this whole rigmarole again, maybe for a few grand more.

Then in another 6 months, the rear end starts whining/grinding. There's another grand. Then a shock bottoms out. Then the PCM glitches. See where I'm going with this?

I drive high mileage vehicles. But that is mostly because I don't pay anyone to do any work if they need it. If that was the case, I'd ensure everything I drove had <100k miles and/or had a warranty.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

yea... so newer cars are the route we are probably headed we just have to settle on what and how.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

ET1SSJonota said:


> That's why I say get rid of. At this point, with the mileage she's already got, you might put $3000 into her for the engine, and in 6 months the transmission goes. Then you go through this whole rigmarole again, maybe for a few grand more.
> 
> Then in another 6 months, the rear end starts whining/grinding. There's another grand. Then a shock bottoms out. Then the PCM glitches. See where I'm going with this?
> 
> I drive high mileage vehicles. But that is mostly because I don't pay anyone to do any work if they need it. If that was the case, I'd ensure everything I drove had <100k miles and/or had a warranty.


Nickled and dimed to death.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

I just had a similar experience this week. We decided to scrap the old van (well actually, head mechanic bought it from us).

Saturday the tranny was sluggish, hiccuped - we figure TCM sensor had a techno fart and my lighting guy drove it back home, if he hadn't we would still have van, we instructed him to drive it home. Not his fault.

So the tranny is FUBAR. Its about 2k to replace with a new one, its a van with 200k kms on the engine. The tranny was rebuilt less than 5 years ago at 100k kms...

Said screw it, sold it to the mechanic.

Either your vehicle mishap is virtual contagious or I did something in a past lifetime that is constantly kicking me in teeth this lifetime...(this is the 4th mishap in as many weeks I've had to stress about)


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LOL... Sorry!! Hope you can get something great!



I've had my head buried in car research today... we may be getting two brand new rides Saturday.... we shall see.

Who knows maybe I'll come out of this with a hotrod.... LOL


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Blossom Leigh said:


> LOL... Sorry!! Hope you can get something great!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Already do, we actually anticipated this. Bought a new van over the summer past lol. We knew something was coming.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

CantePe said:


> Already do, we actually anticipated this. Bought a new van over the summer past lol. We knew something was coming.


Awesome!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Well, looks like Roxanne is getting resurrected. My husband would rather me have what I need versus compromising on a vehicle that doesnt take care of my lifestyle. He is leaning toward a new engine for her since a lease payment over two years is $6000 anyway, even if other things need fixing later. He said we'll just put back the money since the rest of the truck is in excellent condition. It goes gainst conventionl wisdom, but when the othr option is a $30k or $50k vehicle, it still seems cheap.Happy Girl....


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Yeah, looking at the alternative of spending 30k-50k it makes sense to make repairs as long as it doesn't get too out of control.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Thor said:


> Yeah, looking at the alternative of spending 30k-50k it makes sense to make repairs as long as it doesn't get too out of control.


Yea... we have the means for this repair, but neither of us want to be hemmed in where we live because of a lease nor increase our debt on a new car which we have worked hard to reduce it to where it is. This actually keeps our cost per mile the lowest over the alternative. And I love my truck... I was heartbroken, my son was heartbroken but we were willing to make sacrifices and adjust but this morning my H said he would rather me not compromise who I am to "make" this work. I love this man..

I can't shove a hay bale and a big dog into a leased car... and he isn't taking no for an answer. I called this morning on how long it would take to get an engine in and it would be a few days and would take a few more to put it in.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

You have to find the right balance between living today vs available finances.

When our van turned to scrap we did not replace it. It was a 3rd vehicle for us. It probably needed at least a major engine overhaul (valve problems), but then the front axle housing broke. It just made no sense to put $6k into a vehicle which would be worth less than that after the repairs.

But I do miss having such a vehicle for hauling around the dogs, going camping, hauling home improvement materials, etc.

We've discussed buying another van but it would be a luxury not a necessity unless I get rid of my car which was my dad's, and I get a lot of pleasure out of driving it.

Winning the lottery would solve some of these problems.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

I'm glad it worked out for you 

Wish old Cory had worked out for us but he was getting too old and worn down (yup we name ours too - Cory the Caravan. The one is Calvin the Caravan).

He will be making new memories with the head mechanic and his family. Turns out he will be putting in a new tranny and using it instead of his truck (Cory has a new home). Which is nice to see, the engine still has a long life to go.

It is a tank of a van too, tough. You all would crap a brick if I told you where we've taken that good old boy in the bush lol

Fingers crossed that this is the fix that helps your Roxanne !


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I hope so too. The mechanic who is considering this job has asked to have her for a day to size up if its worth it and what all we need. So I will probably do that tomorrow, then go to dealerships Saturday to finalize that info... then move one way or another Monday.


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## JustAnotherMan (Jun 27, 2012)

Horses have been a lifestyle while raising 3 daughters, but I have to tell you keeping a worthy hauling truck alive and running has been a huge cost for us! LOL. Good Luck with Roxxxxannnneeeeeeee!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LOL... isn't it though! Thanks!


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> I hope so too. The mechanic who is considering this job has asked to have her for a day to size up if its worth it and what all we need. So I will probably do that tomorrow, then go to dealerships Saturday to finalize that info... then move one way or another Monday.


As far as sizing up the engine also have the mechanic complete a check on all major components. IE, balljoints, steering linkage, the entire suspension. These parts wear and the amount of mileage perhaps you have had work done on these components. If these parts are in fact needing to be replaced fact this is in with the current proposed bill for a new engine.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Agreed. 

I will make a list of things and with what he finds we can talk about what to include.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> As far as sizing up the engine also have the mechanic complete a check on all major components. IE, balljoints, steering linkage, the entire suspension. These parts wear and the amount of mileage perhaps you have had work done on these components. If these parts are in fact needing to be replaced fact this is in with the current proposed bill for a new engine.


Got a great report on her. Everything is tight, including what you listed above, transmission checks out. He priced the things I listed I knew were wrong and the only thing he came up with beyond my list was my rear differential needs a seal. Beyond that she is in great shape and he was encouraged that this is a good move compared to tens of thousands on something else. We are still going to the dealerships today to investigate the natural alternatives, but I bet we drop the new engine in her. The alternatives for the same money don't carry her capacity with them.

He has been very impressed with my knowledge and questions as have I with him. This is a different mechanic than I've been going to  He seems more versed in the trucks than my other buddy. Highly reputable garage here. Same one who goes to my church. I would have never guessed him to be a mechanic. He started this shop in 08' with the intent to create a shop people trusted to send their mothers and grandmothers to. He has done just that.


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