# Wife and parential alienation?



## Calistyle033 (Aug 22, 2018)

Hello all,

Wanted to get some insight regarding a form of possible parental alienation. 

My wife and I had a pretty lengthy conversation last night about my 2.5 year old toddler. 
We’ve noticed her growing animosity towards me, especially when my wife and I have had a disagreement and she sees that my wife is upset. She act in ways like she wont let me touch her, when she’s upset about something, take it out on me and tell me to “go away” or that “I don’t like dada”.

My daughter is really attached to my wife and would rather have her do everything. This is probably normal for young kids to grow through this kind of a phase. However, I feel like this “mommy do it” phase has amplified due to my wife’s behavior and attitude towards me. I am a hands on dad and have been involved from day 1 doing everything except nursing and have a really good work life balance. She was okay with me doing everything up until about 3-4 months ago and we thought it was just a phase.

We agreed that when my wife is upset, she yells, attacks my character, shuts me out and becomes cold toward me. Will become hostile, not hug me back in front of our daughter, wont say love you back, continue to make jabs because she is upset. A lot of this will start happening in front of our toddler and I will stop it, have to walk away and tell her that we’ll discuss it once she is asleep. We will resolve it but she we believe that our daughter doesn’t see us resolving it and making up and just sees the hostility only. 

A little bit more evidence towards this is that, my daughter treats my wife’s parents and sister with love and be happy to see them when they come over. We believe its because they have a lot of positive interactions in front of her than we do. Her family is often over 3-4 times a week while I am at work and they spend a lot of quality time with her. They have fun and hang out then they leave. My wife also hugs and shows a lot of affection towards them and these interactions are.

My wife says that she doesn’t emotionally feel connected towards me and its becoming increasingly difficult for her to oversee my faults and things I do that she doesn’t like. She thinks is probably why she has this contempt towards me. When I do something to upset her it just validates her feelings and then treats me the way she does. She thinks if I provide her with the emotional connection she needs, she wouldn’t act this way most often. I think it is okay to feel how she is feeling but I don’t think it’s okay for her to behave this way towards me in front of our daughter as we are the adults and she is shaping her view of me and others based on my wife’s view of others. 

My wife isn’t really close with my family, doesn’t make much of an effort, is restricting on the interactions and their involvement. Because of this, my toddler also doesn’t hug them or play with them and would rather just sit in her moms lap while they are over. Again she says because we don’t have an emotional connection she needs or have the relationship she wants, she doesn’t care to make an effort towards my family. This to me shows its not just a regular toddler phase. 

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this? We unfortunately cannot afford couples counselling at the moment until about September/October.


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I would be more concerned with why she is developing contempt for you and is emotionally distant.

What's up with that?

Better to fix the disease than the symptom.


----------



## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

A psychologist once said children, especially young daughters, learn how to treat men by the mothers actions. 

Children are mimics early on. 

You said:


> We agreed that when my wife is upset, she yells, attacks my character, shuts me out and becomes cold toward me. Will become hostile, not hug me back in front of our daughter, wont say love you back, continue to make jabs because she is upset. A lot of this will start happening in front of our toddler and I will stop it, have to walk away and tell her that we’ll discuss it once she is asleep. We will resolve it but she we believe that our daughter doesn’t see us resolving it and making up and just sees the hostility only.


Seems one or both of you are lacking in maturity. 
Unless you and your wife resolve the toxicity between you....


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Did your wife breast feed this child?
Does she sleep with her at night?
Are you the one doing 'more' disciplining of the toddler, than is your wife?

If so, the child only sees her, not you. 

What your wife is doing is toxic and unfair. 
Children learn, from their parents.

To the child, you are the bad person. 
She is being 'taught' that. 

Yes, I see that you have caught on to this.

To the wife, you are the one with the problem. For good or bad reasons, she does not like you.
And, the wife is not a very sociable person. She supports other folks, yea or nay, on totally personal lines.
She sounds overly tribal. In a small way. 

Ah, it may not be 'you', it may be that the wife is not happy where she is at this point in her life.
And yes, you get the blame.

Not directly knowing your marriage, I don't know what the overall situation is. 
I can say, it does not sound promising.

I see this marriage ending, at some point. 

The handwriting is on the wall, it spit out from your wife's lips.


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

CS

Reading your story sounded nearly like deja vu for me with my situation.

I will say this, you likely have huge problem going on here. You two are supposed to a team, the two of you versus the world, yet it seems like it is her versus the world, and you are part of the world.

Your wife is operating in selfish manner without empathy. She treats you disrespectfully and expects you take it, while I bet if you said the same kind of things to her, it would cause a massive issue. She is not actually hearing what you are saying about her not letting your family have as much time with your daughter... she construes this (and probably a lot of things) as you telling her she is wrong.

You are an equal parent and have equal say in what your daughter does. I bet your wife believes she has more say than you because she spends more time with her while you are working.

She has no empathy for you (or anyone else) and that is the root of the problem.

Have you ever read about Gottman's four horsemen? Your wife is doing all of this to you and it is severely damaging your relationship.

Do her parents live much closer than yours? If not, you should push for equal time with them for your daughter.

You need to be assertive, and not allow her to treat your poorly at all, especially in front of your kids, it sets a horrible example.

Drag her to a counselor, you'll have someone on your side.

What have you done in the relationship that she is so upset about?


----------



## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Your wife displays contempt for you and does not mask her feelings/actions in front of the child. Please, this has the potential to go legal. Therefore, as a precaution, please document all negative interactions with your spouse and the consequential alienation of affection displayed by your daughter. 

I say this, as I have been forced into a situation where Mom was dealing dirt through the child. We proved in court that she had so alienated the child that he would have screaming fits if his father so much as touched him. Dad, to his credit, was suspicious of his wife, so the home was wired for sound and video. Originally it was to catch his wife in the act, however, one camera was put over the child's bed. Certainly, we had video of her with her AP, but what was total dynamite was the derogatory remarks made to the child about his father. She was TBF a monster. She was using psychological conditioning on the kid. She would hit the kid and say that Daddy made her. We had evidence that she would talk constantly against Dad, and had the child associate negative feelings toward Dad. The cherry on the cake? She held a masters degree in psychology, specifically conditioned behavior. You could see wisps of smoke coming out of the judge's ears when we presented our little surprise. What was even better, when her team tried to get the recordings excluded, the original rationale behind the court order to record surreptitiously in the house was provided to her reps. We had gotten a court order to record as we expressed a belief in imminent threat. Hey, we were right. My absolute favorite line was from the wife. If I would have known, I would have treated both of them better. She gets two hours supervised visitation per week. Not what she wanted. She is also paying a siginificant amount of child support. Nothing she had anticipated. She lives alone, in a one bedroom. She thought her ploys would get her the familial home and financial support. Nope, all of her plans went awry. Oh, and the AP, he got real far away once all of her little schemes became apparent. The boy is eight now. Four years it has taken to fix the boy's head. There will be more therapy as he ages, mom's damage was extensive. I fear that in her quest to remake her world she has done a real number on the kid. He seems flat whenever I have seen him. Not a normal reaction. Kid had the bad luck to be the child of an out of control narcisssist.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Listen, you have a really big big problem and it is not your kid. 

Can you understand that? 

So the real question is why is your wife doing this. Some, and I am one, will say she is having an affair. Could be on line, could be physical, could be a lot of things. 

So, you need to check that out first and DO THAT NOW. Check her phone records, bank statements, and anything else that you can think of. 

Now, if you can prove that she is not having an affair, the what the actual **** is going on with her and your marriage. 

If you don't deal with this now it is not looking good. 

I am not saying go off half cocked, or in an angry way. I am saying look into what is going on, and do it now.


----------



## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Taxman said:


> Your wife displays contempt for you and does not mask her feelings/actions in front of the child. Please, this has the potential to go legal. Therefore, as a precaution, please document all negative interactions with your spouse and the consequential alienation of affection displayed by your daughter.
> 
> I say this, as I have been forced into a situation where Mom was dealing dirt through the child. We proved in court that she had so alienated the child that he would have screaming fits if his father so much as touched him. Dad, to his credit, was suspicious of his wife, so the home was wired for sound and video. Originally it was to catch his wife in the act, however, one camera was put over the child's bed. Certainly, we had video of her with her AP, but what was total dynamite was the derogatory remarks made to the child about his father. She was TBF a monster. She was using psychological conditioning on the kid. She would hit the kid and say that Daddy made her. We had evidence that she would talk constantly against Dad, and had the child associate negative feelings toward Dad. The cherry on the cake? She held a masters degree in psychology, specifically conditioned behavior. You could see wisps of smoke coming out of the judge's ears when we presented our little surprise. What was even better, when her team tried to get the recordings excluded, the original rationale behind the court order to record surreptitiously in the house was provided to her reps. We had gotten a court order to record as we expressed a belief in imminent threat. Hey, we were right. My absolute favorite line was from the wife. If I would have known, I would have treated both of them better. She gets two hours supervised visitation per week. Not what she wanted. She is also paying a siginificant amount of child support. Nothing she had anticipated. She lives alone, in a one bedroom. She thought her ploys would get her the familial home and financial support. Nope, all of her plans went awry. Oh, and the AP, he got real far away once all of her little schemes became apparent. The boy is eight now. Four years it has taken to fix the boy's head. There will be more therapy as he ages, mom's damage was extensive. I fear that in her quest to remake her world she has done a real number on the kid. He seems flat whenever I have seen him. Not a normal reaction. Kid had the bad luck to be the child of an out of control narcisssist.


normally I would just like a post.
though this subject matter left hitting the like button inappropriate.

though I found the post very enlightening. reading it was very educational.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Calistyle033 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Wanted to get some insight regarding a form of possible parental alienation.
> 
> ...


"Wife, me being a father is far more important to me than being your husband. I want you to know that I will be documenting all of our negative interactions from this point forward, because it's clear to me that your contempt for being my wife is being pushed on our daughter, who is learning contempt for her father from you. This ends in one of two ways: you stop distorting my child's feelings for me and we work on our marriage, or you stop distorting my child's feelings for me and we divorce, where I will be seeking sole custody."


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Marduk said:


> "*Wife, me being a father is far more important to me than being your husband. *I want you to know that I will be documenting all of our negative interactions from this point forward, because it's clear to me that your contempt for being my wife is being pushed on our daughter, who is learning contempt for her father from you. This ends in one of two ways: you stop distorting my child's feelings for me and we work on our marriage, or you stop distorting my child's feelings for me and we divorce, where I will be seeking sole custody."


I don't believe that would be the correct thing to say. It would convey a message that he does not care about her as a wife. It may only support her contempt.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> I don't believe that would be the correct thing to say. It would convey a message that he does not care about her as a wife. It may only support her contempt.


While I agree with your point, she already had enough contempt for him, weather it is supported or not. 

Another question I have is why has he allowed this to continue in the first place?????


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Yeswecan said:


> I don't believe that would be the correct thing to say. It would convey a message that he does not care about her as a wife. It may only support her contempt.


That's the point. Contempt is a two way street. I think she's giving it but not getting it.

This is only happening because he tolerates it happening, and because she's getting something out of it.

Besides, it's far more important for me to be a father than a husband. It's far more important for my wife to be a mother. It doesn't mean you get to neglect being a spouse, but at the end of the day, my children actually need me, and my wife only chooses to.


----------



## Calistyle033 (Aug 22, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> Did your wife breast feed this child?
> Does she sleep with her at night?
> Are you the one doing 'more' disciplining of the toddler, than is your wife?
> 
> ...



Thanks for this and yeah I get blamed for most things. One way or another its my fault.


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I looking at your other thread, you need to stand up for yourself. She walks all over you, and is teaching your child to do the same. If nothing changes, nothing changes.

You don't need a counselor to tell her that you are a human and have feelings. You need to make that clear, that you are worthy of respect and won't accept being treated that way.


----------



## Calistyle033 (Aug 22, 2018)

re16 said:


> CS
> 
> Reading your story sounded nearly like deja vu for me with my situation.
> 
> ...


I guess its time and I need to figure out how to borrow the money for counselling for now. Thanks for the advice.


----------



## Calistyle033 (Aug 22, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Listen, you have a really big big problem and it is not your kid.
> 
> Can you understand that?
> 
> ...



I dont think she's having an affair and I agree there is something going on. However, she has been acting like this for a few years and now its snowballing fast now. I always thought she wasn't ready for marriage due to her attachment with her family and I feel like their is codependency. for the last 2.5 years ever since we've had our daughter, she's wants her family over at least 3-4 times a week for 5-6 hours a day while I am at work and her mood shifts when I get home or when the weekend comes and we are hanging out. Started off slow but now there will be passive aggressive behavior when the weekends approaching because I told her I prefer to spend the time as 3 of us as a family versus having her family around.



But definitely there is lack of respect, lack of empathy, aggressive behavior, constant criticism and contempt


----------



## Calistyle033 (Aug 22, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> While I agree with your point, she already had enough contempt for him, weather it is supported or not.
> 
> Another question I have is why has he allowed this to continue in the first place?????


I allowed it to continue just to keep the peace in the house and more due to fear of losing my daughter to custody as she has had mentioned in arguments she'll divorce me and take her. But I think she's old enough that my fear is going away now and its time to address it.

Was scared to become a EOW father


----------



## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Take your stand--soon. 

Counseling may be available through local churches or community organizations (YMCA, etc.). Some also offer sliding-fee-scale therapy.

Also, your pediatrician may be able to advise y'all with best practices advice.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Calistyle033 said:


> I allowed it to continue just to keep the peace in the house and more due to fear of losing my daughter to custody as she has had mentioned in arguments she'll divorce me and take her. But I think she's old enough that my fear is going away now and its time to address it.
> 
> Was scared to become a EOW father


Wow. If she's thrown out the big D divorce threat in arguements then she's already planning something and getting more confident as time passes.

At some point your W may purposefully try and push you beyond your limits so you're the one to initiate a divorce, looks better for her.

She may be doing this already and it's certainly likely her parents aren't helping you but almost definitely have told your W they'll support her in whatever direction.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Marduk said:


> That's the point. Contempt is a two way street. I think she's giving it but not getting it.
> 
> This is only happening because he tolerates it happening, and because she's getting something out of it.
> 
> *Besides, it's far more important for me to be a father than a husband. It's far more important for my wife to be a mother. It doesn't mean you get to neglect being a spouse, but at the end of the day, my children actually need me, and my wife only chooses to. *


Actually, both are equally important.

The children live with you temporarily, whereas, marriage is forever.
Time.... damn, it goes fast! :frown2:

I get it, if a spouse is a louse, then the children (should) get the lion's share of attention.

Marriage and family life is a balancing act. Most couples do fall down, on occasion.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I can offer that for DW and I, it's the opposite; it's more important to be H/W than mom/dad, always been that way and especially true now that kids are grown.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Marduk said:


> That's the point. Contempt is a two way street. I think she's giving it but not getting it.
> 
> This is only happening because he tolerates it happening, and because she's getting something out of it.
> 
> Besides, it's far more important for me to be a father than a husband. It's far more important for my wife to be a mother. It doesn't mean you get to neglect being a spouse, but at the end of the day, my children actually need me, and my wife only chooses to.


This is were we differ. A good H and a good W to each other have a good home. A good home is conducive for good parenting. Good parenting results in happy kids. 

At the end of the day my W needs me and will tell me so. Our kids need US. To be "us" my W and I need to put each other first. The rest falls into place.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> While I agree with your point, she already had enough contempt for him, weather it is supported or not.
> 
> Another question I have is why has he allowed this to continue in the first place?????


But this validates her contempt.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Calistyle033 said:


> I guess its time and I need to figure out how to borrow the money for counselling for now. Thanks for the advice.


A church counselor is no charge.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Yeswecan said:


> This is were we differ. A good H and a good W to each other have a good home. A good home is conducive for good parenting. Good parenting results in happy kids.
> 
> At the end of the day my W needs me and will tell me so. Our kids need US. To be "us: my W and I need to put each other first. The rest falls into place.


As long as he values the marriage more than he values his child, and his wife is willing to leverage the child over the marriage, his wife will continue to exploit that power differential. Unconsciously or consciously.

She has sat herself neatly on the throne here, and she won't have any intention of getting off of it as long as it continues to work for her.

She has no current motivation to change, he does. He needs to make the status quo as difficult for her as it is for him. And he needs to not leverage the child to achieve this.

But I'm not going to argue with you. 

OP - find your wife's source of power and dominance, and remove it. In both your minds. That is likely what is fueling the contempt.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Calistyle033 said:


> I allowed it to continue just to keep the peace in the house and more due to fear of losing my daughter to custody as she has had mentioned in arguments she'll divorce me and take her. But I think she's old enough that my fear is going away now and its time to address it.
> 
> Was scared to become a EOW father


Your fear is why she will always win.

Take away the fear, and you will gain control and agency over your life. And can seek to stop your being abused, and the emotional abuse of your child which is being used as a vector against you.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I, like most kids are obsessed with our moms. There is nothing worse than seeing your mom upset, so of course she is going to form a negative opinion about you, the person who is hurting their mom. 

The issue is not your daughters opinion. Because If that was a friend, or family member... they will be upset with you if you are making this women cry and be miserable. That’s a normal reaction when their loved one is hurt. 

You need to find a way to stop fighting so much. Work on conflict resolution. Your kids need to learn that arguing is ok, but it must be healthy and constructive and have resolution. If you can’t get it together in a healthy way, then divorce. 


My brothers and I are such mommy’s kids. We always have been. And our dad is great, and he is wonderful but we would murder for our mom. And just thinking back to when my parents fought... I mean we were always on my moms side, whether it was right or not. And I just think it’s because we know how our mom was to us, how she would do anything for us. But also we saw how good she treated our dad. 
But when they would fight, there was never resolution. And my mom would then drink too much, and spiral and flip out on my dad in a very very bad way and we were all subject to watching it. And my dad would stay calm and do this thing where he would make our mom look like the crazy one. And the more he ignored her, the more upset she would get. And even though my mom was the “crazy” drunk women throwing things at my dad, we all knew that she wasn’t. My mom was guilty of caring too much, and not handling it well. My dad was passive aggressive, and just told my mom what she wanted to hear but never changed because he didn’t like confrontation. Now that I am older, I fully understand that it was my dad making my mom crazy. Because I married someone just like him... the super “nice” guy that everyone loves and he would poke me under the table and poke me under the table and when I snapped, he made a show of how “crazy” I am.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Girl_power said:


> I, like most kids are obsessed with our moms. There is nothing worse than seeing your mom upset, so of course she is going to form a negative opinion about you, the person who is hurting their mom.
> 
> The issue is not your daughters opinion. Because If that was a friend, or family member... they will be upset with you if you are making this women cry and be miserable. That’s a normal reaction when their loved one is hurt.
> 
> ...


Are you seriously blaming your dad for your mums bad behaviour???


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Calistyle033 said:


> I dont think she's having an affair and I agree there is something going on. However, she has been acting like this for a few years and now its snowballing fast now. I always thought she wasn't ready for marriage due to her attachment with her family and I feel like their is codependency. for the last 2.5 years ever since we've had our daughter, she's wants her family over at least 3-4 times a week for 5-6 hours a day while I am at work and her mood shifts when I get home or when the weekend comes and we are hanging out. Started off slow but now there will be passive aggressive behavior when the weekends approaching because I told her I prefer to spend the time as 3 of us as a family versus having her family around.
> 
> 
> 
> But definitely there is lack of respect, lack of empathy, aggressive behavior, constant criticism and contempt


Wow - my ex did this, too.

We had to spend 2 weekends a month driving hours away and stay with her family, spend every vacation with them, and have them fully active in our life every step of the way.

If I pushed back on it, I was somehow cutting her off from her family or something.

There isn't going to be a way out of this that isn't a high conflict situation. I was the same way, and it led down some very very dark paths, including infidelity, and both emotional and physical abuse. And I took it all and still tried to keep us together, because that's what I thought my job was as a husband.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

frusdil said:


> Are you seriously blaming your dad for your mums bad behaviour???




No not at all. 
My moms bad behavior is her own. But my mom is a good person. A sensitive person with bad coping mechanisms as well as feeling trapped because she felt she had to stay in a marriage because she didn’t have a job. I UNDERSTAND my mom. 
I know that my dad wasn’t the best husband in those days. And he knew he could get away with it because my mom would never leave him. 


All I can say is that until you experience people like my dad and my exH... who are passive aggressive and narcissistic you will never understand. 

My dad did whatever he wanted to do, and couldn’t care less if my mom was upset. In fact, he thought it was funny to make jokes when she was emotional, upset, or in a rage. It was a power thing. It was honestly a show... see kids look how crazy your mother is. Um well dad why don’t you actually freakin talk to mom and comfort her, and stop being a passive aggressive ****. Nope.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Yeswecan said:


> This is were we differ. A good H and a good W to each other have a good home. A good home is conducive for good parenting. Good parenting results in happy kids.
> 
> At the end of the day my W needs me and will tell me so. Our kids need US. To be "us" my W and I need to put each other first. The rest falls into place.


I do not want to derail and respect your opinion. 

My point is that the child is being emotionally abused here, and the child actually needs a parent. 

This is a crisis situation that is going to get worse.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Marduk said:


> I do not want to derail and respect your opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It will get worse if the adults don’t figure their issues out. 

This is his wife. He needs to poop or get off the pot. If he thinks she is so unjustified, then he needs to leave her. If he thinks they both have improve on issues, then start doing the work. Instead what he is doing is trying to wave a magic wand to try to get his wife to change her feelings and change her behavior. And we all know how often people do that.


----------



## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Once again, I am trying to dissect this situation, to wit: When did this behavior begin? Is there a milestone associated with this? Which one of you brings in more money? Has your toddler ever interacted with others in a more positive manner? My questions are leading, in that I have several suspicions. Has she ever been evaluated psychologically? I have access to a social worker, she is gangbusters on stuff like this. Have you talked to your PCP? Minister/Priest/Rabbi/Friend? Heckuva thing to carry around all alone. 

Before one can work on a problem, one must know what the problem is. This is where you stand at present.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Yeswecan said:


> But this validates her contempt.


Her contempt was validated when he shutdown, shut up and allowed it to continue for almost nine years.

OP, read around. Don’t let this turn into a “you both have problems” situation if it isn't the reality.


Edit.

What has you scared? No really? You related a story where an argument started because of the way you cut tomatoes........


Holy, crap man, get a lawyer and get out.


----------

