# My wife gave up all intimacy, sex, kissing- 6 yrs ago



## JonJon96

I've told my story to multiple friends as objectively as possible, yet I continue to seek any advice that could save my marriage because it is hanging by a thread. Sadly each one of my friends are amazed I've stayed in this marriage and I'm recently beginning to agree with them. It all started when we were 13-14yrs old. 

1. History: W and I met as young teenagers and became great friends. We never engaged in a romantic relationship. She went to college and I went to the military. After she graduated we began to date and eventually married. We got pregnant our wedding night and I was thrilled about having kids ASAP.

2. Newly Weds: I moved her, payed her student loans ($60K), bought a house and spent my life savings to start our lives. She was very selfish in the beginning and spent too much money. I became very critical of her and we started to bicker over daily issues. The sex and intimacy dramatically slowed at about 6 months of pregnancy. 

3. W Transformation: The W transformed almost overnight. After the kid was born I made her happy by maintaining abstinence for 3 months. I figured she would be excited to get back into it. She began to make countless excuses to avoid any intimate contact with me. Sex became a rare treat and we often argued over her lies and excuses not to have it. She later revealed to me that sex hurt and she had been faking pleasure for over a year. We became pregnant again with twins. The problem compounded after their birth. She quickly rearranged her priorities and placed me last in her life. 

4. Intimacy: Before getting married we had a very healthy, fun and wild sex life. We loved to pleasure each other and she would passionately kiss me all the time. we flirted and had fun together. After child birth she quit flirting and only focused on kids. She suddenly stopped kissing me. She started pinching her lips together and I haven't had an open mouth or tongue kiss for 6 yrs no matter how much I try. She hates to be cuddled with, her neck breathed on/kissed, her breasts touched, touching me in any way. Basically she is disgusted by anything beyond mother/child interaction. Which is ironic because the kids get way more intimacy than me. 

5. Sex: The W made this a passive aggressive tool to get her way. She would attempt to get all the extra chores and foot rubs in exchange for a sexual encounter. When anything didn't go her way the day that she scheduled sex, she would fight and argue so she could justify denying me intimacy. Sexual contact of all types is only allowed under her rules. Only 3 positions allowed, I have to finish quickly (as coached) and she refuses to take her top/bra off and she won't touch me ever. Having sex with a dead fish that constantly complains and only allows it 2-3 times a month began to wear on me. All other forms of sexual contact were under strict rule setting and guilt ridden tactics designed to make sex a transaction or concession for her wants around the house/relationship.

6. Professional Help: She claims the pregnancy caused physical damage and it is painful to have sex. I had to nag her for 2 years to discuss the problem with her doctor. She had no desire to solve the problem. When she finally met with the Dr. she refused to try most of the suggestions. She finally engaged in counseling. The doc told me to be patient while she tried to work on her intimacy issues. I did my part and she barely made any progress. We repeated this cycle (me begging her to seek help, her getting help, me giving her space/support while she healed) for the last 6 years and she hasn't made any progress. I've made several improvements with how I treat her but there has literally been no change in her motivation or intimacy progress. She just doesn't care. 

7. Fidelity: After begging for my wife to be my lover and friend for 5yrs, and her giving very little effort, she suggested me seeking sex outside of marriage. To this day she still thinks it's all about sexual release. I must confess how badly I missed a woman desiring me, laying closely with me, sleeping with me and enjoying my company. It sucks to get rejected by your own wife on a regular basis. When I slept with other girls I didn't tell my wife, even though she gave me open consent all the time. Eventually she asked if I had ever done it and I told her yes. Surprisingly she was vey upset and she felt very hurt that I did it. She also claimed it was never sanctioned because we never worked out the specific terms of the arrangement. She confessed that she suggested it with the hopes a release would make me nicer to her and less horny. After all that time she still didn't understand that release would not solve problems in our marriage.

8. Roommates: For the last 4-5yrs we have basically been roommates. she expects me to be the complete husband, helping her with everything around the house. Sadly she is only playing part of the wife role. I work all day while she is home alone (kids at school) and I come home just to work more for her. She expects me to do everything she wants yet my needs are completely unfulfilled. 

9. Current Situation: After living as roommates with no emotional connection, I made one last ditch effort to save the marriage. I decided to give her everything she wanted, be the perfect husband/father and to gain her affection. Surprisingly she appreciated the effort but made no attempts to improve the intimacy. After 3 months of that we got in a huge fight because she wouldn't cuddle with me in bed on fathers day. After two days of fights, I told her I wanted a divorce. I'm tired of being the only one to try. 

10. Divorce: I told her if she didn't aggressively try to repair her intimacy issues that I would leave ASAP. She sat emotionless when I mentioned the D and she said she needed to process the information. She came back two days later and told me she wanted to try counseling again. I was super frustrated when she also asked me to go get individual counseling. We both agree that her issues are related to her childhood and her mother raising kids in an abusive home. I've given her 7yrs and I'm unhappy. 

Should I give any more time to a woman that isn't interested in a romantic relationship ever again? I think divorce is the best option for us and especially my kids.


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## Mr.Fisty

Only you can answer that. If you want a fulfilling life, because this life is the only one guaranteed us, is she worth the investment of your potential for a fulfilling life. I do feel sorry for your wife's past, I experienced a lot of abuse as wel, and it is our job to fix ourselves.

What you want in a relationship, she may be incapable of giving that to you. And honestly she is selfish not to let you go. She does not want to be alone, but she does not have the resolve either to work on herself and her issues. People have different levels of ego based on a spectrum. It is hard to admit that one is defective and flawed, so it gets easier to avoid the issues.

Leaving her might be the best for her as well. She feels safe enough not to change. Divorcing her and making her face herself could be one last loving act that you can provide. If she wants to be in any other future relationship, she will need to change.

Even though the two of you might not be together, there is a possibility of your children having two healthy parents to raise them.

Look at yourself as well, the stress of an unfulfilled life will lower your life expectancy and would not be a good model for your children to emulate after.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

It seems to go against logic, but to save a marriage, you have to be willing to lose it.

Here are a couple of links for you to review.

https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/20...u-the-fear-of-loss-and-the-need-for-approval/

https://curmudgeonlylibrarian.wordpress.com/2014/12/31/marriage-covenant-or-contract-part-1/

Get Relationship Advice and Solve Marriage Problems with Michele Weiner-Davis - Divorce Busting®

The one has a video link in it for a speech on sex in marriage about 2/3 down the page. Have your wife watch it. Ask her the same questions the husband did in counseling.

My wife brought baggage into our marriage & didn't want to deal with it. I wasted many years putting up with it. It wasn't until I said to her in counseling - "We either start having more sex on a regular basis or we get a divorce - your choice", that things changed.

I also owned my own crap, meaning I took a hard look at what things I needed to change in myself, attitude, weight & fitness levels, etc. I also had her read 5 love languages & we both shared the results of what order our needs are in.

One last link to helped my wife deal with her baggage - Official Site for Shannon Ethridge Ministries The Sexually Confident Wife - Official Site for Shannon Ethridge Ministries

The author gives some good advice to women on how to get rid of old baggage that is affecting their lives.

One more link that has had MANY articles that helped my wife -

http://forgivenwife.com/

I read this site & it helped me see some things from my wife's point of view. I tried not deluge her with links. She wrote a very good article on how the men in her past was giving her a tainted view of her husband, even thou he had done nothing to hurt her like the one's in her past. I shared that article with wife, it was one of the few times she apologized to me, saying she realized she was seeing me in the same light as her abuser.


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## Married but Happy

I wouldn't give her any more time. This is another delay and divert tactic. File for divorce, and while it's progressing, you could see if she makes real changes. Even if she does, be suspicious that they're just to prevent you leaving - she'd probably revert as soon as you cancel the process. IMO, just file and leave following your lawyer's advice about it - don't give her any more chances.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

Would it work to handle things like a job review? Write up a list of actionable items such as 

1. MC minimum of three times a month
2. Intimacy of at least once a week. 
3. Non sex intimacy such as showering together, naked naps once a week.

Come up with a concrete list of things that need to change, and STAY IN PLACE, for the marriage to continue. Then set a review date, such as 6 months in the future.

This ALSO means your wife can write up a list of things that need to addressed. Just don't let her throw out things like "More housework needs to be done". That is a ever moving target. Make sure both lists are solid, verifiable items.

If goals have not been attained by the end date, that will be the filing date. Make sure both of you are aware of the deadline, and what the end result will be if things don't change. No covert contracts.


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## unbelievable

JonJon96 said:


> I've told my story to multiple friends as objectively as possible, yet I continue to seek any advice that could save my marriage because it is hanging by a thread. Sadly each one of my friends are amazed I've stayed in this marriage and I'm recently beginning to agree with them. It all started when we were 13-14yrs old.
> 
> 1. History: W and I met as young teenagers and became great friends. We never engaged in a romantic relationship. She went to college and I went to the military. After she graduated we began to date and eventually married. We got pregnant our wedding night and I was thrilled about having kids ASAP.
> 
> 2. Newly Weds: I moved her, payed her student loans ($60K), bought a house and spent my life savings to start our lives. She was very selfish in the beginning and spent too much money. I became very critical of her and we started to bicker over daily issues. The sex and intimacy dramatically slowed at about 6 months of pregnancy.
> 
> 3. W Transformation: The W transformed almost overnight. After the kid was born I made her happy by maintaining abstinence for 3 months. I figured she would be excited to get back into it. She began to make countless excuses to avoid any intimate contact with me. Sex became a rare treat and we often argued over her lies and excuses not to have it. She later revealed to me that sex hurt and she had been faking pleasure for over a year. We became pregnant again with twins. The problem compounded after their birth. She quickly rearranged her priorities and placed me last in her life.
> 
> 4. Intimacy: Before getting married we had a very healthy, fun and wild sex life. We loved to pleasure each other and she would passionately kiss me all the time. we flirted and had fun together. After child birth she quit flirting and only focused on kids. She suddenly stopped kissing me. She started pinching her lips together and I haven't had an open mouth or tongue kiss for 6 yrs no matter how much I try. She hates to be cuddled with, her neck breathed on/kissed, her breasts touched, touching me in any way. Basically she is disgusted by anything beyond mother/child interaction. Which is ironic because the kids get way more intimacy than me.
> 
> 5. Sex: The W made this a passive aggressive tool to get her way. She would attempt to get all the extra chores and foot rubs in exchange for a sexual encounter. When anything didn't go her way the day that she scheduled sex, she would fight and argue so she could justify denying me intimacy. Sexual contact of all types is only allowed under her rules. Only 3 positions allowed, I have to finish quickly (as coached) and she refuses to take her top/bra off and she won't touch me ever. Having sex with a dead fish that constantly complains and only allows it 2-3 times a month began to wear on me. All other forms of sexual contact were under strict rule setting and guilt ridden tactics designed to make sex a transaction or concession for her wants around the house/relationship.
> 
> 6. Professional Help: She claims the pregnancy caused physical damage and it is painful to have sex. I had to nag her for 2 years to discuss the problem with her doctor. She had no desire to solve the problem. When she finally met with the Dr. she refused to try most of the suggestions. She finally engaged in counseling. The doc told me to be patient while she tried to work on her intimacy issues. I did my part and she barely made any progress. We repeated this cycle (me begging her to seek help, her getting help, me giving her space/support while she healed) for the last 6 years and she hasn't made any progress. I've made several improvements with how I treat her but there has literally been no change in her motivation or intimacy progress. She just doesn't care.
> 
> 7. Fidelity: After begging for my wife to be my lover and friend for 5yrs, and her giving very little effort, she suggested me seeking sex outside of marriage. To this day she still thinks it's all about sexual release. I must confess how badly I missed a woman desiring me, laying closely with me, sleeping with me and enjoying my company. It sucks to get rejected by your own wife on a regular basis. When I slept with other girls I didn't tell my wife, even though she gave me open consent all the time. Eventually she asked if I had ever done it and I told her yes. Surprisingly she was vey upset and she felt very hurt that I did it. She also claimed it was never sanctioned because we never worked out the specific terms of the arrangement. She confessed that she suggested it with the hopes a release would make me nicer to her and less horny. After all that time she still didn't understand that release would not solve problems in our marriage.
> 
> 8. Roommates: For the last 4-5yrs we have basically been roommates. she expects me to be the complete husband, helping her with everything around the house. Sadly she is only playing part of the wife role. I work all day while she is home alone (kids at school) and I come home just to work more for her. She expects me to do everything she wants yet my needs are completely unfulfilled.
> 
> 9. Current Situation: After living as roommates with no emotional connection, I made one last ditch effort to save the marriage. I decided to give her everything she wanted, be the perfect husband/father and to gain her affection. Surprisingly she appreciated the effort but made no attempts to improve the intimacy. After 3 months of that we got in a huge fight because she wouldn't cuddle with me in bed on fathers day. After two days of fights, I told her I wanted a divorce. I'm tired of being the only one to try.
> 
> 10. Divorce: I told her if she didn't aggressively try to repair her intimacy issues that I would leave ASAP. She sat emotionless when I mentioned the D and she said she needed to process the information. She came back two days later and told me she wanted to try counseling again. I was super frustrated when she also asked me to go get individual counseling. We both agree that her issues are related to her childhood and her mother raising kids in an abusive home. I've given her 7yrs and I'm unhappy.
> 
> Should I give any more time to a woman that isn't interested in a romantic relationship ever again? I think divorce is the best option for us and especially my kids.


No, you're already divorced and have been for at least six years. You just need the piece of paper to make it official. 

"Newly Weds: I moved her, payed her student loans ($60K), bought a house and spent my life savings to start our lives. She was very selfish in the beginning and spent too much money."

"The sex and intimacy dramatically slowed at about 6 months of pregnancy. 

3. W Transformation: The W transformed almost overnight. After the kid was born I made her happy by maintaining abstinence for 3 months."

From jump street, you recognized her as selfish and materialistic. Before marriage, she was up for sex. As soon as she got pregnant (and you were locked in, financially), sex dropped to near nothing.

You are a pay check. You are a walking, breathing ATM machine. You exist to supply her needs, whether that means financial, foot rubs, chores, etc. You aren't even a real human to her because your needs don't show up on her radar screen. She has no intention of partnering with you and she has given you no reason to hope she might some day. After 7 years, she already know what you have to work with and it's not much from what I can see. You can either get rid of her or suck it up and live the rest of your days as a semi-human.


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## JonJon96

Mr. Fisty,

I think telling my story on here is more for validation of a decision I've already made. I want to see objective opinions from strangers just to see if there is something I'm missing. I haven't been the perfect husband but I do know that I've made several attempts to change in the direction she would like, while she has made no effort to progress.

Sadly she knows she is flawed yet she still blames so many problems of our marriage on me. She fails to see that her actions and abandonment of her husband has resulted in me treating her less like a lover and more like a roommate. Her mother had to survive abuse from a terrible husband and father figure. I believe the moment my wife had kids, she reverted to that same survival mode even though she was in a terrific relationship. She started living the life of her mother and is terrified to try to change that.

You had some great insight here because I told her that I will always love her and I feel sadness for her situation because I believe she will never be in another loving relationship. She has so many intimacy barriers that any date ending with a kiss or sexual gesture will be rejected forever. Even if she moves past that, she would be selling a false bill of goods when she denies sex immediately after marriage. She is a broken woman and I fear my children will never have a positive father figure in the house ever again. Very sad...


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## JonJon96

FrazzledSadHusband,

Thanks for the links. I've sent her several links to help her see what her intimacy issues are doing to us. She has always been open to counseling but she typically only wants to work on our communication and small issues together. She still has trouble realizing that our communication and treatment of each other would skyrocket with a healthy sex life. The major issue here is not frequency of sex. She isn't interested in sex or intimacy of any kind. Sex under coercion just causes more resentment on both sides. The major issue is that she isn't interested in trying. She just wants me to be satisfied with zero physical contact and 100% verbal intimacy, which is rare already.

I really like your actionable list. It is a great idea but I don't think it will fit for my marriage. Here's why- She already treats intimacy like a checklist. The major issue is that she doesn't even remember how to do it naturally. She literally will schedule sex and then it is terrible because she hates every second of it. She will try to cuddle in bed and when I try to pull her closer to me, she acts like it hurts for me to move her. She tightens up all her muscles and pushes away from me. She just doesn't want to do any of it. I need her to want to be with me, not force herself to be with me under the threat of divorce.


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## JonJon96

Married but Happy,

I think you're right. She has stalled many times and we both agreed that divorce was never an option. Sadly she doesn't even closely resemble the woman I married. I seriously don't recognize her. She is actually in denial of how sexual she used to be. When I talk about how we used to flirt and touch each other, she pretends it never happened.

She even tells me that she only game BJ/HJ when we were dating because she knew I liked it. She said once we were married there was no point in ever doing it again. That was all a ploy to get the ring and "I shouldn't expect her to do it anymore" but maybe once annually for special events. 

Trust me when I say that I'll know if the marriage is worth saving during divorce proceedings because she can't fake wanting to be with me. She can't fake wanting me to touch her and wanting to please me sexually. She has years to heal and change and I don't have that time.


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## JonJon96

unbelievable,

You're pretty blunt but absolutely correct. I feel like a paycheck and I've told her that. It just makes her upset. I've told her countless times how satisfied I would be if she wanted to be the bread winner while I stay at home with the kids. Or she could work too and get a nanny. She's never been interested in getting a real job though. She even tells me she doesn't plan to work when all the kids are in school next year. It doesn't seem to matter what my opinion is on the subject.

I can't see a solution in the future. There is no light at the end of the tunnel and she hasn't given me a reason to wait any longer. I already feel like she is just a dependent like a family member that I support. If I stay with her 3 more years she will get half of my retirement forever. Now I'm stuck imagining how much alimony I will have to pay on top of the money I've already spent to pay her debts. I obviously don't mind paying child support but I'm afraid she won't get her act together and get a descent job. Just months ago she wasn't interested in working and now she is facing the reality of needing a good enough job to maintain her lifestyle while raising three kids alone. The first day after divorce she will have $500 in student loans a month, no credit, hopefully a job!


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## FrazzledSadHusband

I guess the only thing left is what I've seen recommended many times on this forum.

Give her the book I recommended above, along with the divorce papers. Let her know that you still have a glimmer of hope in the marriage. But, if she does not start working towards a 2 way, intimate relationship before the divorce paperwork is complete, it will be done.

I hate to say it, but when I had to give my wife a ultimatum, it felt like part of my soul died. She has started working on her issues and made a lot of progress, just wish she would not have pushed me to that extent. Don't know if I will ever get the part that died fully back.

Trust me, I FULLY understand what your saying here -

" She just doesn't want to do any of it. I need her to want to be with me, not force herself to be with me under the threat of divorce."

One more note - my ultimatum was she had to either talk to the counselor about her rape in high school by an abusive boyfriend or I would file. It wasn't about have sex or else. Although my hope was that by working thru her past, she would be willing to enjoy living in the present.


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## the guy

Nice example your wife is giving your kids when it comes to having a healthy relationship with the oppisite sex.

Do your kids a favor and show them what being emotionally healthy is by getting out of this unhealthy marriage and focus on being a positive influence for your kids as they grow.

I take it your old lady is pretty much following the cycle of her parent when she was growing up?


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## JonJon96

I actually already delivered an ultimatum.

I have a unique situation here because I'm active duty military serving overseas with my family. That's another thing that makes my situation so puzzling. I'm a good looking guy working in special operations- so I stay very fit. I skydive, blow things up and work with operators all over the world. I'm not over weight or lazy. I just completed my BA degree and am applying to become an officer. I'd like to think I'm a catch but she doesn't appreciate any of the amazing things I bring to the relationship. When I come from another adventure from another country, she doesn't even care to hear about it. NOT INTERESTED. I have about 15 months left before we go back to the US. Here is the options I gave her:

1. Divorce now overseas. Move her and the kids back to the US. This would be very expensive and hard on the kids. Our home goods would not be available to divide for 18 months.

2. Divorce upon return to the US. Live as roommates until the divorce. There will be no expectations from either party to provide emotional/physical intimacy in any way. She does her job without complaining and I provide financial support. We would continue family events and co-parenting but when the kids go to bed, I'm free to go out on dates/friends or go work out-without being questioned. 

3. She aggressively works on fixing her problems. When/if she makes SIGNIFICANT progress I will transition from being a roommate to a husband. Until then, she should not expect me to be a complete husband if she will not be a complete wife. This is the risky one because I don't want my kids to experience our dysfunctional BS relationship. Her deadline would be the return to the US.

She chose #3 after thinking for a few days and speaking with a close family confidant. I'm on a three week work trip. If she doesn't see any counselors or anything while I'm gone, I'll know how serious she is. I told her she should be there multiple times a week until she finds resolution. She said she would do it only if I got individual counseling too. Is she not getting the message????


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## JonJon96

My wife is repeating a cycle from her mother. Her mom got pregnant and had her, but the father left when my W was 5. Her mom then had another kid years later with another man who ended up leaving her. Soon after she married a criminal that abused her physically and mentally. The abuser never worked and spent all their money on drugs. My W was caring for her three siblings and constantly protecting them from the abusive father. My W and her mother were always in survival mode and the man was evil. One day he tried to sexually assault her and she fought back, running away. He was unsuccessful but her mother refused to believe it and the result was my W moving in with friends at the age of 15. 

It has taken years of therapy for her to move past this and to forgive her mother. Now I fear that she flipped back into survival mode the moment she realized she would be a mother. I've never abused her or treated her poorly. When parenting she often treats me like an outsider that she has to defend the children from. We are only a team when I support her parenting.


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## SecondTime'Round

JonJon96 said:


> She is a broken woman and I fear my children will never have a positive father figure in the house ever again. Very sad...


How about you? You're their father.

Sexual abuse occurs on a continuum and your wife was sexually abused. An attempt still messes with your head and affects how you view the sexual intentions of men, and I know that from experience. She needs counseling, for sure, and I hope she develops a willingness to overcome these issues.

Respectfully, I think you should agree to individual counseling, too, if she's requesting it. You've painted quite a picture here of all of the misdeeds of your wife, but surely you know you are not perfect. The fact that you're not willing to be a "complete husband" and just be her roommate if/while she works on option 3 tells us that much. If she chooses option 3, you should NOT move into your roommate mode and date other women. If you think that's OK to do, I can see why she wants you to also be in counseling while she is.


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## Thundarr

You've stayed in a dysfunctional marriage and that makes you a participant. You already know what you've been doing hasn't worked and hasn't made you happy so you have zero reason to keep doing it. My opinion is that she's used you and you've enabled her and the only solution is for it to end but it's possible that when she's losing you then her outlook will change. The problem is there's so much water under the bridge now. How would you feel if she changed into what you wanted all along but only after you leave and she's chasing? The usual feeling is resentment and 'too little too late'.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

Send your wife this link.

Unbearable Lessons - The Forgiven Wife

She is seeing you thru tainted glasses. She views you in the same light as the bad men in her past. This article got me a "I'm sorry" from a wife that does not say that very often at all. It won't solve your problems, but hopefully it will start a process.

As far as to what another poster said about resentment if she does change, that is true. If she does change and start giving you intimacy, be forewarned that resentment will rear up. You will think "Why couldn't you do this years ago???"


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## JonJon96

I am their father but as you quoted, I said father figure int he house. I don't think I wold be in the house after divorce. There's no guarantee I will even be in the same country as the military moves me around. I haven't been the perfect husband. Most of my issues stem from her losing the will to be intimate and rejecting every possible solution to get help for years. My own wife had no interest in me because the kids always came first and she never tried to fix that. 

To be clear, she was never sexually abused. He tried to get into her room to abuse her and he never got in. Then she ran away leaving her siblings and living with incredible guilt for abandoning them.

I/we have done counseling in the past, several times. I've made the most of those sessions but my issues are relatively simple and they will only improve if the W meets me halfway. Thats the problem, her sessions have not resulted in any progress for 6 yrs. 

Option 3 does not mean I'm dating other women, thats 2. In my opinion, she needs to win me back because I've tried for years and she hasn't. Option 3 is me giving her the opportunity to make up what she has lost. I am going to start sessions too. But it's more to clear myself of resentment over her and to forgive her for all the damage in our relationship. I also want to make sure my issues don't spread to the next relationship. thanks for the advice...


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## WorkingOnMe

You should still date under option 3. The competition will be good for her. Her choosing 3 with essentially no consequences is a simple stalling technique. It's the easiest of the 3 and the only choice really. She didn't choose it because she really wants to work on things.


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## tom67

Thundarr said:


> You've stayed in a dysfunctional marriage and that makes you a participant. You already know what you've been doing hasn't worked and hasn't made you happy so you have zero reason to keep doing it. My opinion is that she's used you and you've enabled her and the only solution is for it to end but it's possible that when she's losing you then her outlook will change. The problem is there's so much water under the bridge now. How would you feel if she changed into what you wanted all along but only after you leave and she's chasing? The usual feeling is resentment and 'too little too late'.


Listen with all respect my man...
If you don't respect yourself who will?
Just sayin.


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## tom67

WorkingOnMe said:


> You should still date under option 3. The competition will be good for her. Her choosing 3 with essentially no consequences is a simple stalling technique. It's the easiest of the 3 and the only choice really. She didn't choose it because she really wants to work on things.


WOM and I are going to get ripped for this but she gave you the pass.:surprise:
Oh and no more being the butler when you get home and read this like now https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## tom67

Since you are military watch some of this guys vids.
https://www.youtube.com/user/redonkulaspopp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUMXiCYXOL8


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## JonJon96

You're right Thunder, I do have so much resentment that it would be very difficult to go back. The relationship is dysfunctional as a result of both people. I made the choice to continue the relationship even with all these problems. That's partly because we had three kids in 3 years. TWINS! I was secretly hoping she would one day come back to me when the kids were out of diapers and she had time to focus on us. Now all the kids are in school yet nothing changes.


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## gouge_away

I would file for a legal separation.

Get the process started, no more excuses, one signature converts this to a divorce, one signature converts this to a marriage.


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## tom67

JonJon96 said:


> You're right Thunder, I do have so much resentment that it would be very difficult to go back. The relationship is dysfunctional as a result of both people. I made the choice to continue the relationship even with all these problems. That's partly because we had three kids in 3 years. TWINS! I was secretly hoping she would one day come back to me when the kids were out of diapers and she had time to focus on us. Now all the kids are in school yet nothing changes.


Jon read about the tragic outcome of the late Erin Corwin at 29 palms.


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## JonJon96

Frazzled- I'm hoping she will decide to come back to me and I'm sure I wouldn't be upset if she did. I'm resentful over her never trying; not attempting and failing.

WOM- I'll probably avoid dating openly because it is frowned upon and illegal if I sexually act on it. If I see her trying really hard then then I'm not going to snub her. I'm just willing to wait for the deadline and whatever our status is when that date comes will determine the divorce or reconciliation. 

Tom- Thanks for the links. I'm pretty sure option three was a stalling technique too because I asked her today if she started counseling and she said she was too busy. I gave this ultimatum 2.5 weeks ago. I went out of town 1.5 weeks ago and I haven't heard anything. So she clearly is not making it/us a priority again. If my wife was going to leave me for impotence I would be in the Docs office getting medicine, the sex counselors office and the chaplain if necessary. I would do it that day and never quit until it was fixed!!!!


----------



## unbelievable

JonJon96 said:


> unbelievable,
> 
> You're pretty blunt but absolutely correct. I feel like a paycheck and I've told her that. It just makes her upset. I've told her countless times how satisfied I would be if she wanted to be the bread winner while I stay at home with the kids. Or she could work too and get a nanny. She's never been interested in getting a real job though. She even tells me she doesn't plan to work when all the kids are in school next year. It doesn't seem to matter what my opinion is on the subject.
> 
> I can't see a solution in the future. There is no light at the end of the tunnel and she hasn't given me a reason to wait any longer. I already feel like she is just a dependent like a family member that I support. If I stay with her 3 more years she will get half of my retirement forever. Now I'm stuck imagining how much alimony I will have to pay on top of the money I've already spent to pay her debts. I obviously don't mind paying child support but I'm afraid she won't get her act together and get a descent job. Just months ago she wasn't interested in working and now she is facing the reality of needing a good enough job to maintain her lifestyle while raising three kids alone. The first day after divorce she will have $500 in student loans a month, no credit, hopefully a job!


Divorces are expensive but when one is truly required they are so worth it. One day you will be leaving this world as broke as the day you got here. The only value your life will ever have is the value you extract from it. Every day you lounge around in misery is 24 hours you could be living a real life in a real relationship with a real partner. You won't be getting any prizes for dangling on a cross for the next 50 years for a woman who doesn't love you, probably doesn't love herself, and probably doesn't have the capacity to ever love anyone else.


----------



## Thundarr

JonJon96 said:


> You're right Thunder, I do have so much resentment that it would be very difficult to go back. The relationship is dysfunctional as a result of both people. I made the choice to continue the relationship even with all these problems. That's partly because we had three kids in 3 years. TWINS! I was secretly hoping she would one day come back to me when the kids were out of diapers and she had time to focus on us. Now all the kids are in school yet nothing changes.


Good luck JJ. Being in the military and over seas complicates things in ways I don't understand.


----------



## 6301

JonJon96 said:


> Married but Happy,
> She even tells me that she only game BJ/HJ when we were dating because she knew I liked it. She said once we were married there was no point in ever doing it again. That was all a ploy to get the ring and "I shouldn't expect her to do it anymore" but maybe once annually for special events.


 When she told you that, your reply should have been "If this is what I have to look forward to and be with a frigid, unfeeling woman who doesn't give a tinkers damn about her husband then you may as well leave."

It would be like you telling her that the only reason you took her to dinner was because she liked it but now that your married she shouldn't be expected to be fed any longer and maybe for Thanksgiving or another special event.

In other words friend, if it was me, she would have been gone a long time ago. You gave it six years which is plenty of time and time is up. What was once a vice has now turned into a habit and habits are hard to break.


----------



## farsidejunky

Retired Army here.

While often overlooked, infidelity can be a career ender given the current nature of the service now, and it would take one superior to pursue it and make it a reality.

Besides which, I would not want to take the hall pass out of sheer principle. You are better than that, OP.

FWIW, when I retired in 2013 I had to rekindle my relationship with my wife too. We were sexless, and it took about a year to really get us back to a better place.

OP, here is my advice. Don't let resentment make you into someone you are not. Treat her with dignity, respect, and accountability. Your ultimatum was long overdue. At this point, watch what she DOES, not what she SAYS. 

You have waited six years; a few more weeks will not kill you. Besides, as an operator, you are required to be disciplined, an expert in doing more with less, and used to working within less than ideal situations. You can handle this.

Lay out what you expect, and look carefully at what she expects, similar to corrective actions from a 4856: specific, measurable, attainable, tangible.

Her actions will tell you all you need to know.


----------



## 15_Days_at_a_time

SecondTime'Round said:


> JonJon96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> She is a broken woman and I fear my children will never have a positive father figure in the house ever again. Very sad...
> 
> 
> 
> How about you? You're their father.
> 
> Sexual abuse occurs on a continuum and your wife was sexually abused. An attempt still messes with your head and affects how you view the sexual intentions of men, and I know that from experience. She needs counseling, for sure, and I hope she develops a willingness to overcome these issues.
> 
> Respectfully, I think you should agree to individual counseling, too, if she's requesting it. You've painted quite a picture here of all of the misdeeds of your wife, but surely you know you are not perfect. The fact that you're not willing to be a "complete husband" and just be her roommate if/while she works on option 3 tells us that much. If she chooses option 3, you should NOT move into your roommate mode and date other women. If you think that's OK to do, I can see why she wants you to also be in counseling while she is.
Click to expand...

This I would disagree with. I am going to add together that you have chose this roommate perspective because for all the years you have been a husband and been through the problem solving as a husband. All attempts have failed you took one last ditch extreme measure to save it all. Correct?

Ex went 18 months unaccompanied within a few months of us separating. It is messy and all parties involved are stuck in limbo. I was in the states but our residency was not in the state I was in and in order to divorce I would have to establish residency here. I moved to his follow on so we would continue to be able to raise our children co-parenting with the agreement he would not sign up again UNLESS he made tech. He ended up being medically retired after everything was said it done. Our divorce took almost 2 years!!!

What puzzles me is she claims physical pain from sex but ALSO rejects all physical interaction. There wasn't physical pain till after the children....which yes it can cause issues...most of which can be fixed. But to reject cuddling, kissing, hugs, etc. That is "off" to me. 

From an outsider looking in I would wonder if your didn't get duped and used from day one. She played the part, got the comfy life, had a kid quickly and then shut down. Sounds a bit like she trapped you and got her free life pass via your love and commitment. 

Then again don't get me started on women withholding sex etc as punishment or a game. I am a woman and it is a low blow in my opinion. For a woman to deny her lover sex is like for a man to deny a woman the need to "talk." Lol


----------



## SecondTime'Round

JonJon96 said:


> To be clear, she was never sexually abused. He tried to get into her room to abuse her and he never got in. Then she ran away leaving her siblings and living with incredible guilt for abandoning them.


It doesn't matter if the attempt was successful or not. It still is in her brain that he tried and it HAS affected her in some way. As much as a little girl who was a rape victim? No, I doubt it, but it has had SOME effect on how she views men, sex, intimacy, etc. I had an older male cousin constantly exposing himself to my sister and me, trying to touch us, spying on us in the bathroom, etc. He was never actually successful in molesting either of us, but it definitely formed my opinion of men, and in particular what my views/opinions are of a man (i.e. my ex husband) whipping out his junk like I really wanted to see it, or wanting to see me naked/in some stage of undress. Our past experiences do influence our present even if it's unfair to you, as the man in the present. Read that article @FrazzledSadHusband linked....it is really great at explaining what I just tried to.

By the way, Frazzled, thanks for that article....it was GREAT. I sent it to my therapist this morning . The article is written from a perspective of experiences from our childhood influencing adult relationships, but the same lessons can be taken regarding moving into another adult relationship after being traumatized by an original relationship (i.e. an ex husband).


----------



## SecondTime'Round

WorkingOnMe said:


> You should still date under option 3. The competition will be good for her. Her choosing 3 with essentially no consequences is a simple stalling technique. It's the easiest of the 3 and the only choice really. She didn't choose it because she really wants to work on things.


I disagree wholeheartedly. When is feeling like you're in competition for someone's affection ever a good idea for a relationship?

OP has ever right to feel hurt and resentment over his wife's refusal to even TRY in this marriage, but I don't think making her compete for his affections is going to get him anywhere in the long run. Unless she totally LOVES competition in general, she'd probably just end up giving up (which I realize isn't that much different than what she's presently doing....).


----------



## MachoMcCoy

I didn't read the responses. I just hope all of these smart people convinced you that your wife doesn't love you any more. If she ever did. She may have schemed to get a successful sperm donor. 

Sorry, time to leave.


----------



## unbelievable

JonJon96 said:


> My wife is repeating a cycle from her mother. Her mom got pregnant and had her, but the father left when my W was 5. Her mom then had another kid years later with another man who ended up leaving her. Soon after she married a criminal that abused her physically and mentally. The abuser never worked and spent all their money on drugs. My W was caring for her three siblings and constantly protecting them from the abusive father. My W and her mother were always in survival mode and the man was evil. One day he tried to sexually assault her and she fought back, running away. He was unsuccessful but her mother refused to believe it and the result was my W moving in with friends at the age of 15.
> 
> It has taken years of therapy for her to move past this and to forgive her mother. Now I fear that she flipped back into survival mode the moment she realized she would be a mother. I've never abused her or treated her poorly. When parenting she often treats me like an outsider that she has to defend the children from. We are only a team when I support her parenting.


It's not surprising that your wife might regard men with resentment and seize the opportunity to get a little payback on one. They have been abandoning or abusing her all her life. She'd have no idea what a healthy relationship even looked like. Not everyone who says "I do" actually can. That's sad and it's not entirely her fault but it's also no reason for you to sacrifice your entire life dealing with baggage left behind by others. You've given it a valiant effort. Move on.


----------



## Satya

I don't have too much to add that hasn't already been said.

I do, however, think that you should go to IC. Not only to discuss the marriage, but really to help yourself get ready for the real possibility that you two will divorce. You need to learn to heal yourself whether you stay or go, because if you don't care about yourself, no one else will.

I don't like to make firm determinations in a case where we can't hear your wife's side of the story, but it sounds like you've really exhausted yourself numerous times doing what you thought was right. Well, since none of that has worked out for you, after some years of trying, I think it's time to say as John Cleese said in Monty Python, "and now, for something completely different."

Get IC, get sorted with what you want, and go for it. Do, don't say. Kids look at parents as the examplars of life's standards, at least until an age where they develop their own value judgement system and start to see that parents != gods.

You shouldn't have accepted her hall pass and acted on it. You should have immediately divorced her then and there. That's just my opinion. Any spouse that would ask you to go get your rocks off somewhere else while they still get to keep you as a husband for all the other perks has a very troubled sense of what a marriage is.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

Glad the article was of use. I find reading forgivenwife.com helps me to see things a little bit better from my wife's perspective. The book I linked from Shannon Etheridge helped as well. Although I think she was put off when I handed her a book entitled "The Sexually Confident Wife".


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## JonJon96

FSJ,

Thanks for the advice. I'm not rushing this process due to the nature of my overseas tour. If we get a divorce I would prefer it to be a mutual decision. I would like her to realize that we set a deadline that we couldnt meet and it's time to call it quits. That way she doesn't feel like I'm abandoning her and the kids and instead she takes some responsibility for the situation.


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## SecondTime'Round

JonJon96 said:


> I'm not rushing this process due to the nature of my overseas tour.


How's your hall pass working out for you while you're overseas?


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## tom67

You are active military don't forget the UCMJ.
Just saying.


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## JonJon96

You guys have given me a lot to think about today. 

15 DAAT,

I would really like to hear more about your story. I'm certain my wife is happy to postpone the divorce as long as possible but not willing to do much to avoid it. With that in mind, if we can make it to the end of my tour, we can divide all of our belongings while its all packed up and it would be easier to move her. I would also get to see my kids for that time which is a huge deal to me. 

You were right in your examination of my situation. I didn't choose to be/act as a roommate but thats how the W has treated me. She basically expects me to be happy as a roommate that also offers her emotional support, treats her lovingly, does things for her out of love, etc... Unfortunately she is quite selfish with her language of love and doesn't offer anything that I need. My last ditch effort was the last 3 months before "the talk" and now I'm waiting to see if she has a last ditch effort. So far she hasn't shown any effort so the future looks grim.


----------



## JonJon96

The hall pass thing ended the moment she discovered I acted on it. We all live together overseas, but it took place in other countries. It really upset her that I did it. Her "plan" for the pass was that I would be much nicer to her if I got "some". When she discovered it had happened and nothing changed between us, she was upset her plan didn't work. I explained that it wasn't sex that I craved, it was the love and affection from a woman. As a man, I need to be wanted, sexually desired. These are all things many women are willing to offer me without giving them the copious amounts of time and money that I've given to my W. I wanted that woman to be her. 

She struggles to understand that the only reason I would beg her for intimate moments, especially sex, was because it was the closest thing I could get to emotional/intimate connections with my W. It really upsets me how much she can't understand my needs. They aren't complicated, nor are they unreasonable. It seems to me the hall pass was a technique to control me. I think she wanted me to feel guilt for it and beg for her mercy. Maybe she thought I would forget all of her problems and try to give her everything she wants. Well that part was true but not out of guilt. I never felt guilty for a second. She abandoned me already, why would I feel bad?

After I told her what I did, and she was upset, I decided that she might actually care now and I was going to make one last ditch effort to be the perfect husband. That's when I started doing everything she ever asked and provided everything a loving husband could ever offer. I never once made a verbal or physical advance for sex. I never touched her anywhere I wouldn't touch a sibling. I didn't even try to cuddle in bed. During this 3 month period she never once tried to make an attempt at intimacy. 

The final straw was when she argued with me about cuddling in bed on fathers day. She hugged me in bed and I tried to pull her close. She pushed back and told me we were "as close as two people can get" which wasn't very close to me. After all I'd given her, she couldn't give me a tight hug in bed, nor did she want to. What is she waiting for? What else does she need to come to me? This is ridiculous and not worth my time if she won't meet me in the middle.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

That last bit....it's called a covert contract. Look it up.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

JonJon96 said:


> She struggles to understand that the only reason I would beg her for intimate moments, especially sex, was because it was the closest thing I could get to emotional/intimate connections with my W.


Either she doesn't believe you, or she is actually incapable of this emotion. You two connected sexually before marriage, and before kids, and you may have misinterpreted that as emotional connection. It's possible she is not capable of it . And, that may not be your fault OR hers.....it could come from childhood.


----------



## JonJon96

I'm not sure if I would call it a covert contract because I intended to be that perfect husband without making a concession. There was no timeline and I just hoped that she would start to like me more and fall back in love with me. She acted like she loved me but not enough to hug me? So her words and actions were conflicting causing me hurt and anger. It was also upsetting that she never realized I never propositioned her for sex after that long. 

I'm pretty certain her problems come from childhood. That might not be her fault, but failing to try and fix it is!


----------



## SecondTime'Round

JonJon96 said:


> I'm not sure if I would call it a covert contract because I intended to be that perfect husband without making a concession. There was no timeline and I just hoped that she would start to like me more and fall back in love with me. She acted like she loved me but not enough to hug me? So her words and actions were conflicting causing me hurt and anger. It was also upsetting that she never realized I never propositioned her for sex after that long.
> 
> I'm pretty certain her problems come from childhood. *That might not be her fault, but failing to try and fix it is!*


Agreed.

And you're sure she's not having an affair?


----------



## JonJon96

Another reason this is not a covert contract- in all of our counseling sessions we both have homework. Hers is always related to intimacy (the #1 problem in the marriage) and mine is related to treating her nicely, not criticizing her and making her feel appreciated. The problem for me is that I do all those things naturally with women that have loved me. When she stopped loving me but expected all those things from me, it naturally became difficult to carry on that way. She claimed she couldn't heal and come back to me unless I gave her all those things. None of which addressed her disgust with sex, kissing, touching or anything in-between. The contract was not covert. I was just making a strong effort to commit to my part of the deal. It is something we have worked on for years. I'm just tired of giving it my all when she doesn't put in the effort at all!


----------



## JonJon96

She's definitely not having an affair. The problem has persisted through two countries and three children. She doesn't have the time to have an affair anyway. I'm more worried that she is A-sexual actually. All things related to sex disgust her. Even joking about it is gross to her.


----------



## Thundarr

JonJon96 said:


> She's definitely not having an affair. The problem has persisted through two countries and three children. She doesn't have the time to have an affair anyway. I'm more worried that she is A-sexual actually. All things related to sex disgust her. Even joking about it is gross to her.


Sex is a means to an end (children) and nothing more for some. It would be awesome if this were stamped on foreheads so at least those of similar interests would know who's compatible and who's not.


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## JonJon96

I agree but she wasn't that way at all before marriage. Sex was an adventure. She used to have genuine orgasms and we had so much fun. She tells me how much she misses having an orgasm but she's terrified to try it seems...


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## tom67

At the 20 year mark she get's HALF of your pension.
Fact.


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## JonJon96

If I'm married to her during 10yrs of service. She has 7 so far. I'm also going to be pissed when she gets alimony because she had a degree long before I did, she just chose not to work.


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## farsidejunky

tom67 said:


> At the 20 year mark she get's HALF of your pension.
> Fact.


It's 10, brother. Not 20.


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## lifeistooshort

I hope everyone realizes that if genders were reversed and this was a woman who'd banged other men even after her husband refused sex and told her to go elsewhere she'd be torn to shreds. Yet nobody's uttered a word here. 

Or is that OK because wasn't getting sex?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JonJon96

The hall pass has been discussed several times. Here's the real difference: Imagine I told my W I refused to have sex with her and it tore apart are marriage. Then I told her to go sleep with other men. Should I be upset when she does? The major difference between the sexes is that she was playing games with my heart and our marriage to control me. If I told her to do that, you can bet the marriage is already over. If she does it, yet wants to keep the marriage, she obviously has a morbid sense of marriage. 

Imagine if you spent 5-6yrs without any intimacy from your spouse and the parent of your children. And after being the guardian of sex and intimacy for that long, the spouse says to go outside the marriage to find fulfillment. Who is the one that gave up here? If you think this thread is all about sex, you need to go back and read more about it.


----------



## farsidejunky

JonJon96 said:


> The hall pass has been discussed several times. Here's the real difference: Imagine I told my W I refused to have sex with her and it tore apart are marriage. Then I told her to go sleep with other men. Should I be upset when she does? The major difference between the sexes is that she was playing games with my heart and our marriage to control me. If I told her to do that, you can bet the marriage is already over. If she does it, yet wants to keep the marriage, she obviously has a morbid sense of marriage.
> 
> Imagine if you spent 5-6yrs without any intimacy from your spouse and the parent of your children. And after being the guardian of sex and intimacy for that long, the spouse says to go outside the marriage to find fulfillment. Who is the one that gave up here? If you think this thread is all about sex, you need to go back and read more about it.


Bottom line is that you should have left her before getting with someone else out of principle if nothing else.

I understand why you wanted to, and suspect your analysis of her motivations is on point, but disagree with you doing it nonetheless.


----------



## JonJon96

I know several people will disagree with my choices. That's okay. I was hurting and in desperate need for affection that my W outright refused to give me. Calling it quits and ending the marriage was/is the hard way out because that means I won't see my kids for a few years and it will cost the whole family financially. Perhaps my W also viewed it as a way to keep the family together because she knew she couldn't perform her duties as my W anymore. 

I think in her heart she knows its over but that means lots of hard work, money and stress. Giving me the pass was the easy way out for her to stop hearing me complain about our problems. When it didn't solve the problem and I told her regularly that being her roommate wouldn't work for me, she still never made any changes. That tells me she is happy with how things are and just wants me to pay the bills on time, take care of the kids and be extra nice to her regardless of what she does. 

After hearing from my friends and people on this forum, I think my decision is easy. If she can't make drastic changes then it's over. If the damage is too serious then we still might not survive her efforts. She could very easily revert back to her old ways as well. I'm afraid she will just do the bare minimum to try and keep me around, but I'm not will to accept that anymore.


----------



## JonJon96

The W just sent this to me: Experience better sex in your marriage

She asked if we should try this. What do you think? I feel like this is putting the cart before the horse. How could she go from being terrified of intimacy to improving our sex life?


----------



## SecondTime'Round

JonJon96 said:


> I know several people will disagree with my choices. That's okay. I was hurting and in desperate need for affection that my W outright refused to give me. Calling it quits and ending the marriage was/is the hard way out because that means I won't see my kids for a few years and it will cost the whole family financially. Perhaps my W also viewed it as a way to keep the family together because she knew she couldn't perform her duties as my W anymore.



How many times did you step outside your marriage and how did you meet these women?


----------



## SecondTime'Round

JonJon96 said:


> The W just sent this to me: Experience better sex in your marriage
> 
> She asked if we should try this. What do you think? I feel like this is putting the cart before the horse. How could she go from being terrified of intimacy to improving our sex life?


Well, she did choose option 3 and you're the one who gave her the choices, so I don't think you can now say "Nope, not worth it, not trying." I'm a little doubtful it will work or that she is 100% genuine, but you're kinda stuck now since you gave her the option to make an effort, and she is.

However, she's obviously not getting (as you've said) that this is not just about sex. It's about overall intimacy, and as I said to you earlier, she might not be capable of that. Your sex was great in the beginning, but that masked a lack of a greater capacity for intimacy.


----------



## Sammy64

Not much to add to this, 
But, Thank you for your Service..


----------



## JonJon96

Why does it matter how when and where? I don't have any emotional attachments or lasting communications with another woman. She wouldn't even know it took place had I not told her. You have to understand that I've asked for my W love for so many years and she finally rejected me to the point that she wanted me to just go somewhere else for it. That means she gave up and I was tired of rejection. There was no hope left for me. I'm not sure how I'm the bad guy in that narrative. 

I understand she chose option 3 and that means she can try to win me back. she shouldn't be proposing more effort from me. It means she should be proving to me that she wants to keep me around. It's so typical that she would suggest a solution requiring me to do more work. I've always been open and willing to work and fight for this marriage but she hasn't. Now that the pressure is on her, she is trying to spread the blame and responsibility again. 

IF the roles were reversed and I was driving the problems in our marriage how would this work? I would be expected to beg the woman for a second chance and make it up to her, change etc... I'm not acting this way because of conventional norms or my displeasure with societal expectations, I'm just tired of a selfish wife demanding more from me when I've given my everything countless times. I think she needs to show me the work not talk about it. She needs to initiate the healing and the intimacy, not expect me to work equally with her on it. I've already told her that I would match whatever effort she put in. If she came to me I wouldn't reject her like she has done to me for 6yrs. That's up to her.


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## ThreeStrikes

Why are you tolerating a relationship like this?


----------



## SecondTime'Round

JonJon96 said:


> Why does it matter how when and where? I don't have any emotional attachments or lasting communications with another woman. She wouldn't even know it took place had I not told her. You have to understand that I've asked for my W love for so many years and she finally rejected me to the point that she wanted me to just go somewhere else for it. That means she gave up and I was tired of rejection. There was no hope left for me. I'm not sure how I'm the bad guy in that narrative.
> 
> I understand she chose option 3 and that means she can try to win me back. she shouldn't be proposing more effort from me. It means she should be proving to me that she wants to keep me around. *It's so typical that she would suggest a solution requiring me to do more work. I've always been open and willing to work and fight for this marriage but she hasn't. Now that the pressure is on her, she is trying to spread the blame and responsibility again. *


I can totally understand why you feel that way.

As far as when/where, I'm going to go out out a limb and guess that even though your wife gave you a hall pass (that she didn't think you'd use), she has resentment toward you for going outside of your marriage. And, if you had one night/anonymous/paid for sex, it is contradictory to your plea for more overall intimacy and not just sex, especially in her eyes.


----------



## Chuck71

Did you know about her childhood before you M her?


----------



## Hicks

You're doing great. Hopefully you bought the sex course. You should weclome and praise any of her attempts.

Regarding the hall pass, you need to ignore everyone's criticsim of that. Your wife denied you sex and then encouraged this. Not too many people would refuse that. You and your wife have learned that it solved nothing.

You did a great job being the "model" husband for 3 months without initiating sex. You are doing the right thing. The ball is in her court... Does she get over her childhood or not? That is up to her. You are not a shrink.

Bottom line is your wife wanted marriage, wanted kids, and needs a husband to attain these things. She knows that she needed to be sexual to "land" you... Now she needs to know that she has to be sexual to keep you.


----------



## lifeistooshort

SecondTime'Round said:


> I can totally understand why you feel that way.
> 
> As far as when/where, I'm going to go out out a limb and guess that even though your wife gave you a hall pass (that she didn't think you'd use), she has resentment toward you for going outside of your marriage. And, if you had one night/anonymous/paid for sex, it is contradictory to your plea for more overall intimacy and not just sex, especially in her eyes.


I agree with this. It's true that if she told you to do it she can't really be upset with you but the honorable thing is to divorce and then bang someone else. 

And you claim you want intimacy but you banged strangers. One typically doesn't get intimacy from strangers, so which is it? Banging strangers is about sex. Period.

It would almost make more sense if you'd had an EA, because that would be consistent with your claim that you really want intimacy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieceOfSky

My wife has "offered" the hall pass a few times to me... usually while angry. I have been "friendzoned" by my wife, have had her head turn away when seeking a mere kiss, have not had sex with her for a couple of years (unless you count the two times she initiated and I stopped after she fell asleep during). I have been told my real and imagined faults over and over, as justification for her lack of attraction to me and indifference to my needs. I have heard her say a few times she would prefer to just have a non-romantic relationship. I have heard her state she really wants to work on things and is going to get help to understand her sexual avoidance, have attended an expensive marriage workshop, only to hear her let is slip a few months later that she is "just biding her time until the kids our grown and out of the house." 

I have observed multiple times the cycle where first she says she wants us to fix things and that she will work towards, but then second she fails to follow through at all (e.g., not getting professional help) or follows through only half-heartedly and then quits. Time keeps ticking away.

And yet, I'm still here (though, leaving seems like the best option and one I now feel capable of... )

One question I'm working to answer is why in the hell I do this to myself.... staying, that is. My wife is not "available" as a romantic and life-partner, yet she apparently prefers to have me in her life for whatever reason, and I apparently have been willing to sacrifice my wants and needs just for her "whatever reason". Intellectually, I understand that is foolish. Morally, I'm disappointed I have done this to myself. I am putting my energy into examining this aspect of myself, and have stopped worrying about her "just not being into me" or "being broken" in some way. Here's hoping it helps me to let go.

Not sure if any of that helps, but understand the one thing you can do is look at yourself. You cannot change her. 

It's not clear to me how much her treatment affects how you feel about yourself. For me, it used to affect me greatly. Less so now. But if it eats away at you, ask yourself if it is eating away at you more than it should... Perhaps there is something you can understand about yourself that loosens the tie her withheld or non-existent love and affection have on you.

Continue to keep track of time and discussions/decisions/plans... so your life doesn't slip away from you. 

Does she claim to even love you?

Some book recommendations:

To good to leave, to bad to stay (by Mira Kirshenbaum, http://www.amazon.com/dp/0452275350...qmt=b&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_538h1antsx_b)

Necessary Endings (by Henry Cloud, Necessary Endings: The Employees, Businesses, and Relationships that All of Us Have to Give Up in Oder to Move Forward: Henry Cloud: 9780061777127: Amazon.com: Books)

No more Mr. Nice Guy (by Robert Glover, No More Mr Nice Guy: Robert A. Glover: 9780762415335: Amazon.com: Books)



Good luck.



ETA: Your wife might have an aversion to sex, in the sense described in this article: How to Overcome Sexual Aversion

The sexual aversion issue is one I don't hear talked about much on TAM, but it seems/seemed likely part of the problem in my relationship.

My wife recently read this article at my request, and declared "Yes, that is what it is like for me only for me it's 10 times worse." But, she was angry with the author's suggestions for how to address the problem ("that just puts it all back on me" -- which I do not possibly understand, and no longer care to).


----------



## PieceOfSky

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree with this. It's true that if she told you to do it she can't really be upset with you but the honorable thing is to divorce and then bang someone else.
> 
> And you claim you want intimacy but you banged strangers. One typically doesn't get intimacy from strangers, so which is it? Banging strangers is about sex. Period.
> 
> It would almost make more sense if you'd had an EA, because that would be consistent with your claim that you really want intimacy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



People are full of contradictions.  People make mistakes. People sometimes are naive about what they will get out of something. Sometimes, people aren't naive about it, and know exactly what they will get or not get out of it, but feel entitled and willing regardless. 

Doesn't mean such people don't also want or miss or need certain things from their spouse.

Things are seldom either/or.

If he says he wants intimacy with his wife and hasn't had it for six years and that troubles him, I believe him. If he says the problem is "not about sex", it's easy for me to believe him as I have lived with that sort of problem. I also know it sucks to hear folks (like my wife) assert that it is "just about sex" -- it never feels good to be invalidated.


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## lifeistooshort

PieceOfSky said:


> People are full of contradictions. People make mistakes. People sometimes are naive about what they will get out of something. Sometimes, people aren't naive about it, and know exactly what they will get or not get out of it, but feel entitled and willing regardless.
> 
> Doesn't mean such people don't also want or miss or need certain things from their spouse.
> 
> Things are seldom either/or.
> 
> If he says he wants intimacy with his wife and hasn't had it for six years and that troubles him, I believe him. If he says the problem is "not about sex", it's easy for me to believe him as I have lived with that sort of problem. I also know it sucks to hear folks (like my wife) assert that it is "just about sex" -- it never feels good to be invalidated.


So having your contradictions called out means you're being invalidated? I guess the discussion ends right there. 

And he doesn't feel he's made a mistake. He feels justified in banging others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky

lifeistooshort said:


> So having your contradictions called out means you're being invalidated?


Absolutely not.

Asserting there is only one possible motivation for something someone did, "period", seems almost the definition of invalidating, but with a pre-emptive twist. 

Declaring someone is guilty of having had that motivation, period, and suggesting it can't coexist with previously stated feelings and motivation comes close to invalidating.

But I understood you didn't exclusively assert things; you did state a lot of it in the form of questions. That diminishes the risk of invalidation being felt, and I trust you didn't mean it to be invalidating and more an invitation for him to introspect.

I hope it doesn't seem like I am nit-picking. He has already stated his wife seems to think it is only about sex. My wife has stated, with contempt, directly and indirectly that for me it "just about sex" -- despite telling her many times that is NOT all that it is about or even primarily. I will spare the details, but some of the things it is about is being constantly rejected, being told in so many ways I am not worthy, noticing others seem to be worthy of sex but apparently I am not, noticing she cannot be bothered to talk about let alone act on my needs. 

For my marriage, sex was the canary in the coal mine, and, yes, I definitely missed it including the physical pleasure as an end in itself. But there are other things here in the coal mine dying, and it's about those too.

When a LD or withholding/non-responsive partner or practically estranged partner tells the other "it's just about sex for you" (or worse: "you just want a hole to stick it in") despite tiring efforts to prove otherwise, THAT is invalidating.


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## SurpriseMyself

Divorce her. My H did the same thing to me, only it was with emotional intimacy. He feigned caring and cut off all emotional support when we married. He isn't the man he portrayed himself to be and never will be. I've wasted 10 yrs with him. Don't do the same. She is flawed, just like my H, and nothing will change that. Go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray

lifeistooshort said:


> I hope everyone realizes that if genders were reversed and this was a woman who'd banged other men even after her husband refused sex and told her to go elsewhere she'd be torn to shreds. Yet nobody's uttered a word here.
> 
> Or is that OK because wasn't getting sex?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you have evidence or is this just your conjecture? I'd like to see a thread to back up your claim.

I'll argue otherwise. SIM is dominated by HD folks. There are a few LD women, but no LD men. Those HD men have little sympathy for LD men who won't take care of their wives. If a LD man is dumb enough to utter "let another man take care of it" and she takes him up on it, I don't think that would happen. 

Personally, I'd think he's a dumbass that got what he deserved.


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## JonJon96

I suppose it's time for an update but first I'd like to address a few of your questions. 

LifeIsTooShort- When I went outside the marriage for sex it did not invalidate my craving for intimacy. That is a short term relief for constant rejection. When you are constantly rejected in every way, emotionally, physically, you crave the feeling of being desired. I would think a woman would be able to empathize more than a man on this subject. 

Chuck71- Yes I knew about her childhood but she had undergone years of therapy and forgiven those who hurt her. I was confident she was capable of participating in a healthy relationship.

Hicks- yes I bought the kit for her but she has done very little of it regardless of how coercive I am.

First off, I took my wife and kids on a long 3.5 week vacation to Singapore and Thailand. We toured paradise and enjoyed several romantic beachside excursions. I never got so much as a kiss during this super expensive and romantic vacation. I spent countless hours and lots of money to be nice and give her a special trip but it never paid off for me even a little bit. We did agree that if the marriage is not fixed by Nov 16, we would have a mutual divorce without anger or resentment. Soon after, my wife and I had a very serious talk about our marriage. I apologized and begged for forgiveness for all the pain and frustration I caused early in the marriage and for any hurt from being with another woman. I didn't ask for any apology from her even though she was plenty guilty for the damage.

I asked her if she could ever forgive me and move on so we could repair this. She decided to give it a genuine effort and began counseling. She started the vaginismus kit as well. It didn't take long for her to procrastinate on both tasks. Here we are nearly 3 months later and she's back to blaming me for everything and putting in no effort. I haven't had sex or made any advances in 7 months. She openly has zero interest in me so I ask her if she ever will. She claims she doesn't know. How do you not know if you will ever be attracted or like another person who's been licking your ass for months? So I'm back to getting **** on.

She also feels that I'm putting too much pressure on her to fix the marriage because everything requires her to forgive me, and for her to fix her sexual dysfunction. So we are back to blaming the husband and the wife has all the issues. I've been incredibly supportive and patient but she just won't face the music and her selfishness knows no boundary. So at this point I am just living my own life and enjoying the time I have left with my kids before I divorce her next year because I can't force her to try anymore. At some point she has to either want this or give it up completely. Waiting around for my retirement and enjoying a life without work seems to be enough for her but I'm not having it.


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## JonJon96

Just to add one more detail... I just finished college after working full time and taking classes the last 10 yrs. I have reached one of my life goals and I'm back in the gym again. After 3 months of hard work, I'm getting my six-pack back and women are starting to notice. I'm getting hit on and my wife could care less. I guess I'll just be ready for the dating scene when this chapter is over. Like I said before- she has zero interest in me! So why does she care so much if I'm interested in someone else?


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## unbelievable

JonJon96 said:


> Just to add one more detail... I just finished college after working full time and taking classes the last 10 yrs. I have reached one of my life goals and I'm back in the gym again. After 3 months of hard work, I'm getting my six-pack back and women are starting to notice. I'm getting hit on and my wife could care less. I guess I'll just be ready for the dating scene when this chapter is over. Like I said before- she has zero interest in me! So why does she care so much if I'm interested in someone else?


She may not care about you but she probably does care about your paycheck. She doesn't want to see some other woman get it.


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## Chuck71

Hate to hear that...... sometimes a D is best served than living a miserable life.

Often times..... after a D is started.... some people have second thoughts.

Consult with an attorney and know your rights.


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## tom67

unbelievable said:


> She may not care about you but she probably does care about your paycheck. She doesn't want to see some other woman get it.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
Focus on 50/50 custody and remind her the more she contests overall the less she will get.
Family law lawyers are good at that.


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## JonJon96

I could see that too. I've paid $60K of her student loans and the moment we divorce she will owe $400 a month right away. Raising 3 kids with child support and loans. She'll have to work her ass off after putting in zero income to the family for 8yrs. Suddenly getting starbucks every morning, buying clothes and purses, eating out and several other expenditure while I'm at work will come to an end. It will be paycheck to paycheck. Even though she has a BA in Business Admin, she has never shown interest in work. She refuses to try. That will all have to change now. If I were her, I'd screw my husbands brains out and make him happy to avoid losing that. She'd rather play the blame game all the way to the end and hope my kindness will transform into weakness for a bit longer.


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## JonJon96

Our agreement is to divide things up out in the hopes to raise the kids with a healthy parental team even though we are separated. She's a great mom and we can do this without fighting. The deadline is for us to come to a mutual agreement that we couldn't fix the problem and it's time to mutually move on. I hope she holds to that. I plan to get 50/50 custody and to slit belongings down the middle if not more for her because of the kids. I'm happy to give them a good life and I want to help her get on her feet, not punish. In fact I am encouraging her to solve her issues so she can one day love another man and be intimate with him so my kids can have a father figure and she won't be depressed. I know I'll move on with any issues even though I doubt I will marry...


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## unbelievable

JonJon96 said:


> I could see that too. I've paid $60K of her student loans and the moment we divorce she will owe $400 a month right away. Raising 3 kids with child support and loans. She'll have to work her ass off after putting in zero income to the family for 8yrs. Suddenly getting starbucks every morning, buying clothes and purses, eating out and several other expenditure while I'm at work will come to an end. It will be paycheck to paycheck. Even though she has a BA in Business Admin, she has never shown interest in work. She refuses to try. That will all have to change now. If I were her, I'd screw my husbands brains out and make him happy to avoid losing that. She'd rather play the blame game all the way to the end and hope my kindness will transform into weakness for a bit longer.


Are those three kids your children? If so, is she just as indifferent to their needs? Is she lazy and unmotivated in her role as parent as she is in her job pursuit and in her marriage? If she is, you probably need to take your kids with you. Her neglecting you is inconvenient but if she's neglecting the kids' needs, that's dangerous and cruel and will cause long term harm to them.


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## Chuck71

When her meal ticket is walking out the door, her attitude will change.

Keep in mind... if she does "vagina bomb" you after you file for D, why did she? Change of heart?

I have no clue what the laws are there... even if you get 50 / 50 .... she will come at you for alimony.

Watch closely how she acts after being served.... if she suddenly "wants you" that may mean

she doesn't think she will come out to the good with CS / alimony.


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## JonJon96

She is far from neglectful with the kids. They are our kids together and she is a phenomenal mother. The problem is that she acts like a single mother protecting the kids from the intruding man-ME. I don't get to have much of a say in their raising without a fight. If I suggest a tweak in parenting she cries out that I'm criticizing her. She stopped wanting sex and kissing after the first kid. This is when she flipped the switch on me.

I would be terribly surprised if she showed crazy interest in me upon the big D. She doesn't seem capable of affection and it disgusts her. I don't think she'll even be able to date for years. She's all F$%$% up with intimacy issues and I think she's just trying to avoid the inevitable.


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## JonJon96

Alimony? Maybe, but she's well educated and she's actively pursuing a substitute teaching job out of nowhere. It tells me that she realizes the D is on the horizon and she has zero work history. If she works for this whole year, has a degree and I paid most of her massive loans, can she really fight for alimony? And if she got it, I'm certain it would be temporary for re-location and starting a new life.


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## tom67

JonJon96 said:


> She is far from neglectful with the kids. They are our kids together and she is a phenomenal mother. The problem is that she acts like a single mother protecting the kids from the intruding man-ME. I don't get to have much of a say in their raising without a fight. If I suggest a tweak in parenting she cries out that I'm criticizing her. She stopped wanting sex and kissing after the first kid. This is when she flipped the switch on me.
> 
> I would be terribly surprised if she showed crazy interest in me upon the big D. She doesn't seem capable of affection and it disgusts her. I don't think she'll even be able to date for years. She's all F$%$% up with intimacy issues and I think she's just trying to avoid the inevitable.


Carry a voice activated recorder so she doesn't get you kicked out of the house and you get stuck only having the kids every other weekend.
Don't say "oh she won't do that"


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## Chuck71

JonJon...... if the D does proceed..... don't be the least bit shocked to hear she is dating someone.

Watch what she does, NOT what she says.

Give defiant people what they want, it rarely turns out as they had planned.

Start the 180.... cool, firm, dispassionate

Also.... she has alienated your children from you, dismisses when you have input / suggestions...

Every single time I have heard this script.... it always got ugly, VERY ugly.

Eyes wide open JJ


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## JonJon96

Thanks guys. Should I start putting money away here or something? lol....


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## happy as a clam

For crying out loud, just file already. The clock is ticking on 10 years in the service where you will be forced to give her HALF of your pension.

File, divorce, ONLY THEN should you even remotely consider "dating" her and ONLY if she puts in Herculean effort. (Although, once you un-tether yourself from this mess, I don't see a snowball's chance in h*ll of that happening).

She is a cold fish and is not in love with you. There is nothing here to save.

You can both be wonderful co parents to your children, and you will be free to move on and find happiness. And keep most of your money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MachoMcCoy

MachoMcCoy said:


> I didn't read the responses. I just hope all of these smart people convinced you that your wife doesn't love you any more. If she ever did.


I guess not.


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## happy as a clam

MachoMcCoy said:


> I didn't read the responses. I just hope all of these smart people convinced you that your wife doesn't love you any more. If she ever did.





MachoMcCoy said:


> I guess not.


I tried... 



happy as a clam said:


> She is a cold fish and is not in love with you. There is nothing here to save.


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## JonJon96

I agree that it's time to file and she doesn't love me anymore. I've been convinced since the day I posted in this forum that our marriage was done. However, I want her to come to that decision with me and to see that I've tried very hard to save it. I want her to realize we will never work out so we can have a calm mutually determined divorce without slinging blame and resentment all over the place. That may take some time and like I mentioned before, we are overseas. That means in one year I will move back to the states. If I D now, I won't see my kids and they won't have the household goods. She'll be able to conspire secretly in another country. I'd also have to pay for the travel costs. If I wait the year, we can reach the agreed upon relationship deadline and separate our household goods upon arrival in America. Then she can start a new life and we can split things down the middle before even getting our goods. In the mean time I'm trying to be supportive of her healing phase so she can shed the resentment that will inevitably overflow into our kids lives. I also want her to fix her issues so my kids can have a father figure one day and she can be happy again. I'm not mad at her anymore, I'm over it already. Now I'm worried about the well being of my children.


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## Chuck71

I read your post yesterday but somehow, it was deleted. Yes I am very familiar with her culture

and upbringing. It could be quite possible she swore to never be treated as her mother was by her father.

Maybe..... maybe... her 1st H did treat her poorly. Maybe she saw a pattern with her H similar to her father's.

Or she could have balled up in a shell to make sure she would never be treated as her mother was.

And if this meant derailing a M.... so be it. Childhood trauma, if not dealt with, will follow them into adulthood.

No one knows how her 1st M went so... all speculation. 

Running from your problems never solve them.... eventually everyone gets tired of running and stops,

after decades of running.... and the same problems are there... just manifested. 

My 1st love has been running since we last broke up.... in 1990.

My XW is still running..... I think she has since her teen years..... she turned 50 this year.


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## Chuck71

International Ds..... WOW.... definitely consult a lawyer.... ask your superior or IC on base about situations

as this. I assume she will stay in Singapore. Tricky spot to be in with your children.

But never forget.... she has not lifted a finger to save this M. Do you want to be in this same situation until

your youngest child is 18? That would be utter misery.


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## JonJon96

---2016---UPDATE-------
So i demanded she seek counseling if she wanted me to ever try again. She doesn't take care of herself and is an emotional wreck. After a few sessions she convinced the dr and me to marital sessions too. After 3 months of these, more than one dr concluded She was not ready to work on a relationship with someone else because she lacked self confidence and has deep rooted sexual and relationship issues. I met all obligations and suggestions from the counselors. She met very few. She also confessed she wasn't sure if she'd ever be able to. I'm not just talking about intimacy. I'm talking about accepting love in any form except for acts of service and gifts. She truly is a broken woman. So the dr determined she should double her solo sessions and that I wait for her to unf&$& herself. Now I'm required to wait and support or kick her out of the country along with my children. Well I'm not doing that. So here I am on a 2 week international vacation that I got for the family- writing this. I'm halfway through this trip exhausted by her BS. No touching or intimacy allowed. I've been body building for about 9 months now, still not even a smidgen of attraction. Meanwhile she's gained 15lbs, stopped birth control resulting in acne and generally looks like ****. I still tell her she's beautiful and all that. Im getting hit on by beautiful woman, flirting with some and my miserable wife could care less if I was a fat slob or chiseled hunk. She's just not interested. I'm certain this is over and she's not capable of fixing herself unless I throw her ass into the real world and stop supporting her. Come November when we return to the US, she'll be on her own, but how do I survive this woman until then?


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## Chuck71

Focus on the kids. Hold out until return to US. Hate hearing this but it was about "what you expected"

Maybe.... just maybe once she is on her own, she will realize what she had. 

Just work on you...


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## FrazzledSadHusband

She stopped birth control?? Even if she wants to jump your bones, I'd pass at this point. Unless ya got a rain coat handy.


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## MachoMcCoy

JonJon96 said:


> Her "plan" for the pass was that *I would be much nicer to her* if I got "some".


Amazing that nobody caught this. OP: you can be the best looking ripped guy in your platoon. If you treat your wife like crap, they walk. I too was confused by how I looked better than ever when I tried to improve physically for her. NOTHING in return.

The difference between you and I was that I got my kick in the gut, "sometimes you're not very nice to me", after reading a WHOLE LOT on these forums. I FULLY understood what it meant. The SAME EXACT STATEMENT from our wives, with the exact same problem. it changed my life, you barely mention it.

Tell us about not being nice to her. We may be able to help you in your NEXT marriage. This one's over. Or should be anyhow. She is a walk-away-wife. They don't come back. But a good percent stay in the marriage out of ease. That's why my wife is still here. It's up to me to do anything about it. Not her. She's out. As is your wife.

Look at YOU. It's too late to fix yourself for her. But KNOW what drove THIS wife away so you don;t do it next time. I can GUARANTEE it isn't her libido.


----------



## Marc878

You are procrastinating and trying to avoid the inevitable.

History should tell you that nothing is going change.

Time is an issue. Getting locked into the 10 years is a killer.

If you're smart you'll end this. Now


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## JonJon96

For those of you not understanding my circumstances, I can't divorce until November when we return from overseas. I'm not procrastinating, I'm trapped. In the meantime I'm working on improving myself physically and trying to understand what I contributed to a failed marriage so I don't do it again. I'm also encouraging her to improve herself physically and emotionally. Unfortunately she is resistant to any improvements because she won't stop blaming me for any problems in her life. 

With regards to my mistakes- "treating her poorly"

I Spoke down to her and criticized her early in our marriage. Mostly because I thought I was marrying an independent, self sufficient, educated woman that was a fighter. She duped me on several levels. Even with a business degree, she didn't know how to use a computer. She couldn't even open a file from a USB and she was 24yrs old and in the job market before marriage. While I worked, she went shopping everyday and spent a bunch of money. When l asked for her to get something done while I worked, she would choose not to or if it was a difficult task, she would quit the moment it became challenging. She constantly wasted food, resources and money. As her husband I tried to bring her into the financial plan and establish ground rules for spending. Buying Starbucks every morning and going out for lunch daily was unacceptable on a $30k salary. I spoke down to her because these things persisted until our bank account zeroed out, she never tried to get a job and respected my work very little. With these circumstances I couldn't help but talk to her like she was dumb. After all, she was bankrupting our new family, refused to contribute and seemed totally incompetent with simple tasks. In addition, I/we bought a new home, I took on all her student loans and paid all her bills. Got her a new phone with contract and of course paid for the rings and wedding. So I don't think I would treat another wife this way because I wouldn't get involved with another woman that acted this way. I would also live with her for a few years before marriage.


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## JonJon96

I asked my wife to help get my daughter ready so I could take her on a valentines date. She got pissed and said I should be taking my wife out on V day. I told her she hasn't offered to do anything for or with me. Mind you we just returned from a $4,000 vacation she really wanted to go on. We haven't had any sexual contact for almost a year. I should have said we should be having sex on V day or on my bday, Xmas, etc. but instead I told her my daughter was my Valentine and left for the gym. Lol, am I a jerk or just tired of being the nice guy?


----------



## Thound

JonJon96 said:


> I asked my wife to help get my daughter ready so I could take her on a valentines date. She got pissed and said I should be taking my wife out on V day. I told her she hasn't offered to do anything for or with me. Mind you we just returned from a $4,000 vacation she really wanted to go on. We haven't had any sexual contact for almost a year. I should have said we should be having sex on V day or on my bday, Xmas, etc. but instead I told her my daughter was my Valentine and left for the gym. Lol, am I a jerk or just tired of being the nice guy?


BAM!!!


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## Chuck71

Refresh my memory..... if you wait until returning to US.... she will get a portion of your retirement?

Something about passing your tenth year of service....


----------



## NotLikeYou

JonJon96 said:


> I asked my wife to help get my daughter ready so I could take her on a valentines date. She got pissed and said I should be taking my wife out on V day. I told her she hasn't offered to do anything for or with me. Mind you *we just returned from a $4,000 vacation she really wanted to go on.* We haven't had any sexual contact for almost a year. I should have said we should be having sex on V day or on my bday, Xmas, etc. but instead I told her my daughter was my Valentine and left for the gym. Lol, am I a jerk or just tired of being the nice guy?


JonJon, part of the problem is that you are convinced that your WIFE is the broken one.....

If she has truly done to you the things you have described in this thread, and youre still taking her on vacations at all, the problem can be seen with any convenient mirror.

Its going to be interesting to read this thread in a few months, when youre back in the States, and see what new wrinkle 100% physically and legally PREVENTS you from taking meaningful action to change the marriage.


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## AVR1962

I have afeeling you are going to go thru this yet again with the next relationship you have with another woman. Women like connection, we are emotional creatures but when every touch is associated with sex we get turned off and become protective which to me sounds like what has happened with your wife.

Quote[5. Sex: The W made this a passive aggressive tool to get her way. She would attempt to get all the extra chores and foot rubs in exchange for a sexual encounter. When anything didn't go her way the day that she scheduled sex, she would fight and argue so she could justify denying me intimacy. Sexual contact of all types is only allowed under her rules. Only 3 positions allowed, I have to finish quickly (as coached) and she refuses to take her top/bra off and she won't touch me ever. Having sex with a dead fish that constantly complains and only allows it 2-3 times a month began to wear on me. All other forms of sexual contact were under strict rule setting and guilt ridden tactics designed to make sex a transaction or concession for her wants around the house/relationship.]

I would not call this passive-aggressive at all. I think that you guys tried to reach a solution by scheduling days/times for sex and when it came to those days she really did not want to carry thru so she created distance. Why? Possibly could be for the reason I mentioned before and it could be that your wife does not have as high of sex drive as yours. If this has become a issues between you she may have decided to avoid it and any connection to it all together.

You said you tried for 3 months to give her what she wanted and it didn't make a difference in how she reacted to you as far as intimacy. Ever think that maybe instea dof trying for just 3 months, you should have tried your whole marriage?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

AVR1962 said:


> I have afeeling you are going to go thru this yet again with the next relationship you have with another woman. Women like connection, we are emotional creatures but when every touch is associated with sex we get turned off and become protective which to me sounds like what has happened with your wife.
> 
> Quote[5. Sex: The W made this a passive aggressive tool to get her way. She would attempt to get all the extra chores and foot rubs in exchange for a sexual encounter. When anything didn't go her way the day that she scheduled sex, she would fight and argue so she could justify denying me intimacy. Sexual contact of all types is only allowed under her rules. Only 3 positions allowed, I have to finish quickly (as coached) and she refuses to take her top/bra off and she won't touch me ever. Having sex with a dead fish that constantly complains and only allows it 2-3 times a month began to wear on me. All other forms of sexual contact were under strict rule setting and guilt ridden tactics designed to make sex a transaction or concession for her wants around the house/relationship.]
> 
> I would not call this passive-aggressive at all. I think that you guys tried to reach a solution by scheduling days/times for sex and when it came to those days she really did not want to carry thru so she created distance. Why? Possibly could be for the reason I mentioned before and it could be that your wife does not have as high of sex drive as yours. If this has become a issues between you she may have decided to avoid it and any connection to it all together.
> 
> You said you tried for 3 months to give her what she wanted and it didn't make a difference in how she reacted to you as far as intimacy. Ever think that maybe instea dof trying for just 3 months, you should have tried your whole marriage?


By the same token, men like physical connection; we are sexual creatures. Why wouldn't a wife understand that the whole marriage?


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## JonJon96

Chuck- I'm waiting to return to the states so I can see me kids until we return. It will also be more expensive to send them home sooner and she could build a case for custody against me while I'm overseas. I'm well past the 10yr mark in the service but if she is married to me during 10yrs of service, she is entitled to half my retirement. We are currently at 7.5yrs.

NotLikeYou- I'm not saying I am without faults but my W is definitely the "broken" one. This isn't my opinion, it is the consensus of several mental health professionals. She has undergone 10+yrs of counseling if you include her child/teen years. She came from a broken home that she ran away from at age 15. Every counselor or Psychiatrist quickly comes to the realization that she has serious issues that only she can deal with. They typically bring me in after a few sessions because she blames much of her problems on me without taking responsibility for her own problems. After a few group sessions, I typically get sent home with instructions to support her during her healing phase and to be patient. There is no timeline, just a suggestion that she may never be "healed" or back to normal. I always wait patiently and treat her really well while she sits stagnant and super happy that I'm serving her every need. I'm left abandoned and rejected at every turn, while she gets all the love and support she needs. It's not about fairness but somebody can only put up with a one-way relationship so long. I take her and the family on vacations because I also want my kids to have new and exciting experiences. I also want the W to be happy because I'm already in a sexless, loveless, one-sided marriage. If she is happy, at least I'm not dealing with an angry resentful unhappy wife on top of that.

AVR- I don't agree with your assessment for future relationships. Maybe that's true with her, which is why I'm trying to get her as much counseling as possible. The shrink recommended that she doubles her individual sessions to twice weekly and that I emotionally support her. The shrink doesn't recommend any individual session with me, nor does he want me for MC sessions. He and his team of 3 have concluded she has too many issues to work on the marriage. No self esteem, anxiety disorder, sexual dysfunction (vaginismus), and severe trust issues. We had a break through in MC where she internalized and realized (with MC assist) that the H has been offering all the love in her love languages for several months of counseling. She admitted that she wasn't committed to the M, didn't know how to accept the love I was giving her, didn't know if she could ever be intimate on any level ever again, with anybody. She is BROKEN and needs severe psychotherapy before she can be part of this union again. With regards to your passive aggressive defense-- The doctor has explained this to both of us in detail. The W decided long ago that she was superior in the relationship and decided the H was not meeting his obligations to emotionally support her, and do more house chores. She set the bar of success higher than he could reach. Whenever he is close to meeting the bar, she raises it making it impossible for him to be GOOD enough in her eyes. This mostly stems from her trust issues. Mind you, I didn't betray her trust. She cocooned herself once the children were born. She went into survival mode to protect them from men because thats how her mother had to survive when she was a child. She also did the same with her siblings and an abusive father. I've never abused her yet I was the bad man anyway because of her deep rooted issues.


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## *Deidre*

JonJon96 said:


> I could see that too. I've paid $60K of her student loans and the moment we divorce she will owe $400 a month right away. Raising 3 kids with child support and loans. She'll have to work her ass off after putting in zero income to the family for 8yrs. Suddenly getting starbucks every morning, buying clothes and purses, eating out and several other expenditure while I'm at work will come to an end. It will be paycheck to paycheck. Even though she has a BA in Business Admin, she has never shown interest in work. She refuses to try. That will all have to change now. If I were her, I'd screw my husbands brains out and make him happy to avoid losing that. She'd rather play the blame game all the way to the end and hope my kindness will transform into weakness for a bit longer.


Skimming through this thread, looks like you've played the role mainly of 'rescuer' in your marriage. Let your wife rescue herself now...you can't save her. Only yourself.


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## farsidejunky

JonJon96 said:


> I asked my wife to help get my daughter ready so I could take her on a valentines date. She got pissed and said I should be taking my wife out on V day. I told her she hasn't offered to do anything for or with me. Mind you we just returned from a $4,000 vacation she really wanted to go on. We haven't had any sexual contact for almost a year. I should have said we should be having sex on V day or on my bday, Xmas, etc. but instead I told her my daughter was my Valentine and left for the gym. Lol, am I a jerk or just tired of being the nice guy?


I think you did well.

"Wife, going on dates is reserved for my daughter or for someone who actually has a romantic interest in me."

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## TheTruthHurts

farsidejunky said:


> JonJon96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I asked my wife to help get my daughter ready so I could take her on a valentines date. She got pissed and said I should be taking my wife out on V day. I told her she hasn't offered to do anything for or with me. Mind you we just returned from a $4,000 vacation she really wanted to go on. We haven't had any sexual contact for almost a year. I should have said we should be having sex on V day or on my bday, Xmas, etc. but instead I told her my daughter was my Valentine and left for the gym. Lol, am I a jerk or just tired of being the nice guy?
> 
> 
> 
> I think you did well.
> 
> "Wife, going on dates is reserved for my daughter or for someone who actually has a romantic interest in me."
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Dude that creepy beyond belief


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## JonJon96

You know what he meant... I showed my daughter what a respectful man is supposed to do on a date. We talked about things that interested her, opened doors, pulled out chairs, the whole chivalry bit. If the W won't give me any love, why should I waste time on her. My relationship with my daughter will be forever.


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## TheTruthHurts

Yeah OP I agree too


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## farsidejunky

TheTruthHurts said:


> Dude that creepy beyond belief


FFS...

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## TheTruthHurts

farsidejunky said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dude that creepy beyond belief
> 
> 
> 
> FFS...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Xyz pdq


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## sally40

I'm sorry but it sounds aggressive or abrasive when you keep saying "I serve her every need", and it sounded abrasive in earlier post when you said "(early in our marriage money was tight and she'd spend on Starbucks every morning, so I had no choice but to talk to her as if she were dumb" - if you spoke to your wife "As if she were dumb" early in your marriage that is, essentially Verbal Abuse.

You have said you are handsome. If a man is handsome and yet also "talks to his wife as if she were dumb" that is a hug turn-off. There are plenty of handsome men who speak respectfully to their wives and your wife likely knows this. You should consider earning your way back into her heart by embracing a kind approach. I know you have been through a lot, but it appears that you were almost pushy with her early in the marriage and she may see you as aggressive


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## JonJon96

Sally- that's a fair assessment and good advice. I spoke to her like she was dumb because she performed the same destructive spending habits as we spent over budget and the bank account dwindled to nothing. I would show her the income and expenditures allowing her to be a partner in the budget. She would just nod and say okay, then spend frivolously the following week. I would ask her to perform simple tasks like paying a bill or getting a local drivers license. Handling DMV stuff. You know, adult things. She would go shopping and neglect all of these until the deadline was imminent or overdue. Then I would have to take time off work to do it because she was unreliable. So yes I spoke to her like she was dumb because for a woman with a degree, she made dumb choices daily. And I was broke as a result. It's too late for the resolution. She's finally learned how to adult! But I still do the bills, budget, taxes etc. the big things. So I have tried to win her heart back but she doesn't know how to receive love. See my previous post from the last 24hrs. I talk about this from our MC.


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## Spotthedeaddog

JonJon96 said:


> The W decided long ago that she was superior in the relationship and decided the H was not meeting his obligations to emotionally support her, and do more house chores. She set the bar of success higher than he could reach. Whenever he is close to meeting the bar, she raises it making it impossible for him to be GOOD enough in her eyes. This mostly stems from her trust issues.


Actually you've hit that nail pretty much on the head.

The "he doesn't emotional support me, do more chores" isn't her words, they're words off women's magazines and womens' complain pages. They are "stock answers", given because someone has asked a question, and the defensive mechanism for "I'm not home psychologically", is to give an answer which is socially "accepted", but more importantly, "_obviously_ false". That it is so obviously false, is a message that the comment is not to be believed. Look into the "deprogramming" and "auditting" involved in Scientology patients.

Basically it's a classic avoidance behaviour, but one with a reach-out hook.
Question is is the hook real? is it a baiter? is she actually sociopathic??

The whole point of "the bar", is to keep people OUT. They do not qualify, thus there opinions and emotions and selves (and thus needs and words) have zero emotional weight/importance.

Only real question is how long does the husband want to keep playing this game? Especially if there are no prizes at the end of it. Catering to the issue will only serve to enable her - which is fine for the paid psychs (as no-one is homeless or injured; the husbands financial or lifetime success is not their concern)


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## *Deidre*

JonJon96 said:


> Sally- that's a fair assessment and good advice. I spoke to her like she was dumb because she performed the same destructive spending habits as we spent over budget and the bank account dwindled to nothing. I would show her the income and expenditures allowing her to be a partner in the budget. She would just nod and say okay, then spend frivolously the following week. I would ask her to perform simple tasks like paying a bill or getting a local drivers license. Handling DMV stuff. You know, adult things. She would go shopping and neglect all of these until the deadline was imminent or overdue. Then I would have to take time off work to do it because she was unreliable. So yes I spoke to her like she was dumb because for a woman with a degree, she made dumb choices daily. And I was broke as a result. It's too late for the resolution. She's finally learned how to adult! But I still do the bills, budget, taxes etc. the big things. So I have tried to win her heart back but she doesn't know how to receive love. See my previous post from the last 24hrs. I talk about this from our MC.


I wonder reading this, if you would have a hard time being in a relationship with a woman who could take care of herself and was responsible, because this father/daughter dynamic seems to have played out for while between you and your wife. I don’t say that to be rude, I say that because there are a lot of men out there who like to ‘take care of women,’ but they forget that they are also disabling their women to being self-sufficient. Your wife knows you will ‘rescue’ her when she acts like a child, and doesn’t take care of things. And you do. The caveat to a relationship like this, is your wife doesn’t see you as an equal …which is why sex has gone to the wayside. She doesn’t feel like she needs to bring anything to the table, and her idea of a relationship is to have a man pay her way and take care of her, as if she was a child, and you’re the parent. You need to be honest with yourself, in that you have allowed this dynamic to go on, and why you have. You might like playing the rescuer…many men do, but it usually just leads to frustration, eventually.


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## AVR1962

JonJon96 said:


> AVR- I don't agree with your assessment for future relationships. Maybe that's true with her, which is why I'm trying to get her as much counseling as possible. The shrink recommended that she doubles her individual sessions to twice weekly and that I emotionally support her. The shrink doesn't recommend any individual session with me, nor does he want me for MC sessions. He and his team of 3 have concluded she has too many issues to work on the marriage. No self esteem, anxiety disorder, sexual dysfunction (vaginismus), and severe trust issues. We had a break through in MC where she internalized and realized (with MC assist) that the H has been offering all the love in her love languages for several months of counseling. She admitted that she wasn't committed to the M, didn't know how to accept the love I was giving her, didn't know if she could ever be intimate on any level ever again, with anybody. She is BROKEN and needs severe psychotherapy before she can be part of this union again. With regards to your passive aggressive defense-- The doctor has explained this to both of us in detail. The W decided long ago that she was superior in the relationship and decided the H was not meeting his obligations to emotionally support her, and do more house chores. She set the bar of success higher than he could reach. Whenever he is close to meeting the bar, she raises it making it impossible for him to be GOOD enough in her eyes. This mostly stems from her trust issues. Mind you, I didn't betray her trust. She cocooned herself once the children were born. She went into survival mode to protect them from men because thats how her mother had to survive when she was a child. She also did the same with her siblings and an abusive father. I've never abused her yet I was the bad man anyway because of her deep rooted issues.


Are you here to vent, looking for advise and support or are you hoping we will see your side of this and find your actions and thought processes justifiable?

Okay, so she has had a hard life? How many of us have not and yes, it messes us up and along the way sometimes we get more angry and more bitter before we get better.

My question to you is do you love your wife?


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## MachoMcCoy

JonJon96 said:


> Sally- that's a fair assessment and good advice. I spoke to her like she was dumb because


You are in trouble, my friend. This is the second post TODAY where you said, basically "yes, I have issues, but here's a few paragraphs on why I treat her like sh1t.

Guess what friend, it's NOT her. And I do not understand how anyone on here can say it is. Just because he's the one telling the story, doesn't mean he's "right".

When my wife gave me her equivalent of "you talk to me like I'm stupid", it knocked the wind out of me. I knew what it meant. Seeing what I was doing to the love of my life killed the old me. A new one replaced me IMMEDIATELY. 

You don't get it. You defended your actions as though she deserved it. Guess what? The next one won't be perfect either. Try not to belittle HER to get your point across.

Fix yourself, bro.


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## GuyInColorado

Damn, your situation is similar to mine. Wife put out two kids, stopped taking care of herself, and had no desire to do anything intimate with me. Hell, I don't want to touch her now. Even if she got hot again (which I'm sure she will), I can't be intimate with her due to the resentment I have. We haven't had sex in over 4 years. 

The hardest thing I have ever had to do was pack up my bags and leave the house with my two kids watching. But 6 weeks later, it's been the best thing I could have done. She's changed completely and we are both very nice to each other. She still wants me back, which is why I suspect she's this way. But I've moved on...... years ago! I'm dating already and just waiting for the legal crap to get taken care of so I can finally go on with my life and be happy. 

If you don't love her, do herself a favor and let her go find someone to make her happy. You get to do the samething. Kids complicate it greatly, but they are not a reason to stay in a horrible relationship. It's worst for the kids.


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## JonJon96

Spotthedeaddog- I doubt her issues are stemming from societal influences in magazines but I see your point. She does manifest barriers to intimacy and other uncomfortable situations in life. For instance, she doesn't kiss anymore because she has a phobia to saliva. She developed a stressed Jaw disorder from stress and claims that oral is out of the question forever. She got hemorrhoids during pregnancy several years ago but claims anal is out forever, just in case they come back. Vag intercourse is out because of her vaginismus. HJ or mutual masturbation is out because it's icky. I'm not exaggerating these at all. 

Deidre- I wouldn't ever become involved with another woman who needed a "daddy" or that couldn't prove self sufficient. Independence is a huge turn on for me and I thought my W had those things. She was living on her own for a year after college but now I realize that her boyfriend must have been taking care of everything. I was tricked into thinking she was independent and that she loved intimacy. In and out of MC she confessed that she pretended to like sex and flirting just because it made me happy. It was all disingenuous BS that went away quickly after marriage. 

AVR- At first I was looking for feedback to see if there was any hope for my marriage. Now I'm just looking for insight on my situation and I'm curious to hear from people in similar situations. I've already determined we will D but I can't until we return from overseas. Do I love my wife? Yes, but I am not in love with her. She will always be the mother of my children and a part of my life. I just can't be with her because she is broken and won't put in the work to fix herself. IF she did, then maybe we could work on our M again. I think it's too late for that now.

MachoMcoy- I'm not sure how far you've read. I don't treat her like $hit. Those were confessions from the beginning of our marriage 7yrs ago. Your counseling somebody from back then, so ease up. I'm just being honest about mistakes I made that led to some of our marital problems. We both contributed to this failed M but most of our issues stem from her childhood. The defense mechanisms, subconsciously guarding the children from men/me, developing vaginismus after child birth. My worst crimes are harboring resentment over her lack of intimacy. It pissed me off that I was lied to constantly when the wife was avoiding intimacy. Although she wanted to continue being intimate, she wouldn't seek help and our M suffered for years while I begged her to seek help. Fast Forward 6yrs and here is the damage from her negligence. At this point we are roommates, only she constantly asks me to do more than my part in the household and makes demands that she thinks every husband should be performing. While on the flip side, she's not willing to go outside of the homemaker role= no intimacy allowed. It's just like having a super needy live-in nanny that constantly *****es and spends all your money. 

GuyinColorado- Thanks for your story. I'm already over it as well. I'll be happily dating within days of legal separation when I get stateside. My goal is for her to heal and become more self confident, solve her mental health issues, so that she can be a productive member of the workforce and possibly date again one day. Nobody will want a woman that refuses to kiss and can't have any sexual contact. I know that may sling her right back into depression so I'd like her to get healthy for the sake of my children. And I do care enough/love her enough to help her reach those goals so I can let her go.


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## MachoMcCoy

JonJon96 said:


> MachoMcoy- I'm not sure how far you've read. I don't treat her like $hit. Those were confessions from the beginning of our marriage 7yrs ago.


I read the whole thing. And I will admit that I did NOT catch that it came from 7 years ago. It just threw me how you spent most of your time, just yesterday, describing how she deserved it. Still kind of makes me think you have a little growing to do before you start another relationship.


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## JonJon96

Sorry, most of that was clarifying details for people throwing spears. I'm sure you're right though. I don't plan to jump right into a relationship but I'm not holding back when I see something I like either. I just won't be making any commitments for awhile. I think most women would understand that too. I am emotionally over this relationship though and I could date a woman tomorrow without looking back. But that's because I've been rejected for so many years I've realized for whatever reason, I AM NOT WANTED! She quit trying so long ago but she will be more upset with having to become a single mother. For the first time in so many years, she'll have to work, pay bills and all the other adult things she took for granted as I cradled her. I've shouldered the burden of bringing in the income but I'm glad she stayed home with the kids. Now that they are in school, she still resists work. She just wants to volunteer at school and horse around with remodeling antiques for fun. Meanwhile I'm working my ass off for her and the kids to have a better life. I'm in the military, I'm not rich. We need the money. She'll see soon. I'm just fearful for the future of my children as this barely stable woman cares for them. And yes it's a better alternative than taking custody. I'm constantly out of town and that wouldn't be fair to the kids.


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## lifeistooshort

I'm ex military and my ex retired from the military. 

I don't think the military will let you have custody when there's another parent, and you seem to be assuming that you could just "take custody" anyway.

Your wife has been the primary caregiver, and though you claim she's unstable convincing a court of that is another matter. 

It would have to be extreme for a court to give you custody under your current circumstances.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

Jon...... above poster brings forth a very valid point. When back in US.... will you still be active?


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## arbitrator

*I know that I'm a tad late getting to the rodeo, but I totally agree with my learned TAM brethren in saying that you have become her intentional or unintentional meal ticket; and as such, you should get with your lawyer ASAP and start the proceedings on promptly giving her the air, requesting possession of the marital home and child custody as well!

Let her have her freedom so that she can make some other louts life a living hell! Not yours!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JonJon96

Yes I'm active duty and I have 8 more years left before retirement. I don't plan to fight for custody because I think she's a good mother and it's not fair to the kids since I'm gone so often. I just want her to be whole again so she doesn't raise them with insecurities and other emotional issues. I'm hoping we come to D mutually as previously agreed upon and we set up joint custody with me paying child support. I'm hoping to pay only temp alimony because she has a bachelors degree she got before marriage that I mostly paid for after the fact. She's capable of getting a good job she's just lazy. I also read that she can take a lump payment from my Thrifty Savings Plan for the period we wer together. That's on top of the percentage I might have to give from my military retirement. Any other vets experience this?


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## farsidejunky

You are likely going to lose half of your retirement and TSP.

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## lifeistooshort

What makes you think joint custody is even feasible with you coming and going with the military? I get that you don't want to pay but when you're gone she will have to handle everything kid related alone, and even when you're not gone you have to work a lot of crazy hours. We both know that military life really isn't compatible with family life, and you want to claim 50/50 but you'll only by able to be in for maybe 10% and 0 for long stretches.

As for alimony maybe you can work something out. I did not ask for it nor did I ask for any of my ex's retirement, but the reason that's in place is because the military makes it very difficult for a spouse to have their own career.

You are not going to be granted custody anyway. It's an unfortunate side effect of full time military duty.


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## Catherine602

It's astounding that all you can think about is dating and getting sex now of all times. You have three children undergoing major stressors, moving country and D. In addition, your STBX, the mother of your 3 children, face financial and emotional problems adjusting. You still have a family and concerns in that direction. 

Do you think that this is the right time to be consumed by the frivolous and self-centered pursuit of women instead of spending time with your children? Why don't you control yourself and work on making this transition as easy as possible for your 3 dependents and making sure that their mother makes the transition for their sake. It's not forever, just until things are settled.

You are away from your family for extended periods why do you not spend all of your free time with your children and preparing them for these changes. You say you doubt that your wife is stable enough to adjust so how can you leave the burden of weathering this transition mainly to her while you get on with your dating life. I don't understand how you can think of anything but them with all they need to manage in the future. 

I feel terrible for your children. I think they will have a very hard time, they need a father who puts them first. They don't have that and they will suffer for it.


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## farsidejunky

Catherine602 said:


> It's disturbing that all you can think about is dating and getting sex. You have three children undergoing major stressors, moving country and D. In addition, your STBX, the mother of your 3 children, face financial and emotional problems adjusting. You still have a family and concerns in that direction.
> 
> Do you think that this is the right time to be consumed by the pursuit of women? Why don't you control yourself and work on making this transition as easy as possible for his 3 children and making sure that their mother makes the transition with his help.
> 
> I am not sure how much time you plan to devote to spending time with your children and preparing them for these changes but dating seems a frivolous and self-centered pursuit. You say you doubt that your wife is stable enough to adjust yet you leave the burden of weathering this transition mainly to her while you get on with your dating life.
> 
> The fact that your wife did not have sex with you does not absolve you of all responsibility for your family. I don't understand how you can think of anything but them with all they need to manage in the future.
> 
> I feel terrible for your children. I think they will have a very hard time, they need a father who puts them first. They don't have that and they will suffer for it.


Curious, Catherine, what you would have him do. Your post is heavy on criticism, but fairly empty on tangible recommendations.

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## Catherine602

farsidejunky said:


> Curious, Catherine, what you would have him do. Your post is heavy on criticism, but fairly empty on tangible recommendations.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


1. Spend his spare time with his children in place of chasing women. 2. Don't date now. 3. Stay in his children lives with more than a passing glance and 4. Put his children first, always.

Those are hardly empty. He may need a strong reminder that it's not all about him or sex. Three children are fairly tangible. They suffer needlessly when parents D. It's largely preventable if both parents take the time and energy.


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## farsidejunky

Catherine602 said:


> 1. Spend his spare time with his children in place of chasing women. 2. Don't date now. 3. Stay in his children lives with more than a passing glance and 4. Put his children first, always.
> 
> Those are hardly empty. He may need a strong reminder that it's not all about him or sex. Three children are fairly tangible. They suffer needlessly when parents D. It's largely preventable if both parents take the time and energy.


I would agree that he at times sounds shallow. After six years of his wife dodging intimacy, though, I can understand it. When sex and intimacy are elusive, it becomes almost consuming. 

So he should wait how long to date?

As for the assertion that both parents should try, I agree. Is he to bear the brunt of your scolding, or should his wife, who is seemingly intimacy averse, also hold some responsibility?

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## JonJon96

LifeIsTooShort- I don't assume I could just take custody, that was poorly worded. I meant I won't fight for custody because I think they should be with the parent that is around the most. With regards to my military situation, I wouldn't ask for full/traditional joint custody, I'd ask for joint legal custody so I still have a say in the childrens future. I would also work out visitation requirements. The W would want me to see them as much as possible so this won't be an issue. I want to pay child support for my kids. I want them well taken care of. When she starts working again, they'll have a higher standard of living than they do now. Retirement is another subject though and won't affect the children. 

Farside- You really think I'll lose 50% for only 7-8yrs of marriage? I had 4yrs of TSP built up before marriage so that would be quite unreasonable. Also she shouldn't be entitled to more than 20% of either retirement if we split it down the middle for the exact period she was in the marriage; (8/20)yrs X 50%share=20% entitlement. That's a fair split assuming I complete 20yrs. This is something I could actually offer her and I think it's fair. She might rather take a larger cash payment from my TSP though. I could give her $30K cash from TSP and that would help her start a new life without the financial burden. I'm hoping we agree on all terms and don't need lawyers. An uncontested D means we agree on the terms and we can file a straight no-fault D without court battles. We agreed last year that we would D in November if MC failed and we weren't back in love or trying super hard. She's pretty much given up and that's why I'm planning this far out.

Catherine- My first instinct was to cuss you out for such an inappropriate, undeserving attack. You basically called me a bad father that doesn't care about his kids because all I care about is sex. The manner in which you replied suggests you have been wronged by an ex H and this must have been very painful. For that reason, I'm trying to be patient with you and sympathetic opposed to lashing out at you. If I'm wrong than let me know why you cherry picked information and took it so far out of context. If you follow the entire thread, you'll see just how far off the mark you really are. I kept this dying marriage together for years just for my children and the well being of my broken W. I didn't want them in day care and it was important to interact with both parents early in their lives. I could have left her years ago but I cared too much about my kids and I missed the woman she used to be. I have mentioned several times that I already decided to D but I would have to send my wife and kids back to America where I wouldn't see them for 2yrs and it would cause great strain on everybody. I have avoided that decision because my kids are priority #1. What do I lose by making that decision? More retirement pay to the W, more of my youth, another celibate year or 2 with no love or affection from the W, unhappiness. The only thing I gain is time with my kids, so watch your mouth. I've also spent considerable time explaining that I'm spending this final year getting her intensive therapy and time/support to get a real job so she doesn't go into the job market with no experience. This is also because my kids are #1 and I will always care about my first wife. The only point I made about dating was that I was ready to move on. I never even mentioned sex. Hell, I only mentioned dating once in response to a question- so suggesting that it's the only thing on my mind and more important than my kids is so far off-base I don't even know how you got there. I am literally doing all the things you've suggested already. I just took them on a 10 day vacation! I spend every day off with them. And like I mentioned in this dialogue, I'm not dating until we D which is almost a year away! So how do you think I'm consumed with dating/sex right now? If you have nothing to contribute here except for baseless attacks, go troll somebody else real life problems.


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## farsidejunky

I was thinking y'all had 10 in already. You are tracking correctly. Just make sure it ends before 10; that is the magic number.

Just curious, but does Group have any policies against posting on message boards like this?

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## JonJon96

No problem Farside... Group? If you mean the military or something related, then no. Besides it's confidential, and I don't reveal any PII or work related details. This is strictly for me to get outside feedback.


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## farsidejunky

I though you were an 18 series.

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## Chuck71

lifeistooshort said:


> What makes you think joint custody is even feasible with you coming and going with the military? I get that you don't want to pay but when you're gone she will have to handle everything kid related alone, and even when you're not gone you have to work a lot of crazy hours. We both know that military life really isn't compatible with family life, and you want to claim 50/50 but you'll only by able to be in for maybe 10% and 0 for long stretches.
> 
> As for alimony maybe you can work something out. I did not ask for it nor did I ask for any of my ex's retirement, but the reason that's in place is because the military makes it very difficult for a spouse to have their own career.
> 
> You are not going to be granted custody anyway. It's an unfortunate side effect of full time military duty.


I know this would be somewhat odd but.... member of military..... spouse gets arrested for.... say

hauling 45 kilos of coke or.... armed robbery... etc. Other parent is 7-9 years away from retirement

if not more. What would happen to the kids? Would military parent be moved stateside and still serve 

but be able to care for kids? Any answer would help..... just curious.


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## farsidejunky

Chuck71 said:


> I know this would be somewhat odd but.... member of military..... spouse gets arrested for.... say
> 
> hauling 45 kilos of coke or.... armed robbery... etc. Other parent is 7-9 years away from retirement
> 
> if not more. What would happen to the kids? Would military parent be moved stateside and still serve
> 
> but be able to care for kids? Any answer would help..... just curious.


You maintain a family care plan. That requires a short-term provider, for small local exercises that may take a week or just a few nights. You also need a long term provider, for deployment. Then you must have a power of attorney for those two to execute medical decisions in your absence. Failure to maintain that family care plan will subject a soldier to discharge.

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## lifeistooshort

farsidejunky said:


> You maintain a family care plan. That requires a short-term provider, for small local exercises that may take a week or just a few nights. You also need a long term provider, for deployment. Then you must have a power of attorney for those two to execute medical decisions in your absence. Failure to maintain that family care plan will subject a soldier to discharge.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Correct. And you'll even need backup for things like picking them up from school as you can't leave early if something is going on. 

In many ways you're a parent in name only. That's why the joke is that if the military wanted you to have a family they'd issue you one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

farsidejunky said:


> You maintain a family care plan. That requires a short-term provider, for small local exercises that may take a week or just a few nights. You also need a long term provider, for deployment. Then you must have a power of attorney for those two to execute medical decisions in your absence. Failure to maintain that family care plan will subject a soldier to discharge.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Just to clarify..... D military.... two young kids. No immediate family. Maybe short term but

long term is no go. How much time would one get to find short and long?

But as you said if both plans are not maintained, discharge, assuming honorable...


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## Chuck71

lifeistooshort said:


> Correct. And you'll even need backup for things like picking them up from school as you can't leave early if something is going on.
> 
> In many ways you're a parent in name only. *That's why the joke is that if the military wanted you to have a family they'd issue you one.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good benefits for a reason.... they own you for xx years.

I'm assuming it was this way in years past (post WW2)


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## farsidejunky

Chuck71 said:


> Just to clarify..... D military.... two young kids. No immediate family. Maybe short term but
> 
> long term is no go. How much time would one get to find short and long?
> 
> But as you said if both plans are not maintained, discharge, assuming honorable...


90 days.

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## JonJon96

Not 18X/SF, I'm AF...


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## farsidejunky

Gotcha. 

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## Catherine602

JonJon96 said:


> Catherine- My first instinct was to cuss you out for such an inappropriate, undeserving attack. You basically called me a bad father that doesn't care about his kids because all I care about is sex. The manner in which you replied suggests you have been wronged by an ex H and this must have been very painful. For that reason, I'm trying to be patient with you and sympathetic opposed to lashing out at you. If I'm wrong than let me know why you cherry picked information and took it so far out of context. If you follow the entire thread, you'll see just how far off the mark you really are. I kept this dying marriage together for years just for my children and the well being of my broken W. I didn't want them in day care and it was important to interact with both parents early in their lives. I could have left her years ago but I cared too much about my kids and I missed the woman she used to be. I have mentioned several times that I already decided to D but I would have to send my wife and kids back to America where I wouldn't see them for 2yrs and it would cause great strain on everybody. I have avoided that decision because my kids are priority #1. What do I lose by making that decision? More retirement pay to the W, more of my youth, another celibate year or 2 with no love or affection from the W, unhappiness. The only thing I gain is time with my kids, so watch your mouth. I've also spent considerable time explaining that I'm spending this final year getting her intensive therapy and time/support to get a real job so she doesn't go into the job market with no experience. This is also because my kids are #1 and I will always care about my first wife. The only point I made about dating was that I was ready to move on. I never even mentioned sex. Hell, I only mentioned dating once in response to a question- so suggesting that it's the only thing on my mind and more important than my kids is so far off-base I don't even know how you got there. I am literally doing all the things you've suggested already. I just took them on a 10 day vacation! I spend every day off with them. And like I mentioned in this dialogue, I'm not dating until we D which is almost a year away! So how do you think I'm consumed with dating/sex right now? If you have nothing to contribute here except for baseless attacks, go troll somebody else real life problems.


Cuss me out? That's one I have not read before. Tell me how that would help you? What bothers you? I'm not saying what you want to hear. Is that your customary reaction? I'm not telling you that 6 yrs of poor sex with your wife makes you a victim? 

You realize more than most people that having a stable life, healthy children, a satisfying and secure career, and financial security makes you a very fortunate man. Your circumstances are challenging but manageable. 

Given that you have so many resources that are easily accessed, I expect that it would not be too much to ask that you forget yourself for the time being and concentrate on important issues, including your role as a father. Is that an accusation of bad parenting? I didn't think so. Maybe just a suggestion to reframe your hierarchical vision. 

I do have experience with a man who put his selfish pursuits before his children, all 4 of them and who was married to a depressed woman. If one or the other of these two people turned 1/4 of their attention to those children, 2 would probably still be alive and 2 would probably have been much better adjusted adults. 

I could not pass this way without commenting on your thread, it's too important. You know what you need to do and I hope you have the independence of vision to do the right thing. You see how easy it is to get confirmation that you are a refugee from a sexual desert. But you know that this is not the issue here. You are a father of 3 children in a failed marriage.


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## JonJon96

I think you need to reread what you sent to me and then backpedal faster. You accused me of so many things and you said the kids need a good father right now but they don't have one. 

The lack of intimacy is only part of this thread. Like I said before, you didn't do the due diligence of reading before you judged and attacked. My kids have always been the most important element in this situation. I'm using all the resources available to me-- MC, psychotherapy, legal advice, children's counseling. I'm not saying your advice is bad. I'm saying you are treating me like I'm not already doing these things and I'm a POS for it. Get off your high horse already. 

The lack of intimacy is one of many problems in this marriage but it is not the sole issue at this point. I've offered updates on this thread as we've moved on past that. I'll never have a sexual encounter with my wife ever again. I'm just doing what's best for everyone at this point.


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## john117

Let's see your Typical TAM Male or TTTAM (tm) put up with the kind of ex-crement dished out by people like OPs wife for years on end and then pass judgement.

The majority of TTTAM folk have no idea what it means to be married to an emotional zombie.


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## john117

Read the suggestions for dealing with said zombies.

Most are well meaning but useless, and a few are still well meaning but outright laughable. 

I still find stories here that are so far beyond the norm in terms of fvcked up thinking that they chill my mind.


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## jebadoa

Read the book "Sheet Music" by Kevin Leman. It completely changed me and my attitude towards my role as a husband. It made me excited to take care of my wife, and the intimacy followed, just like the author said it would. 


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## JonJon96

After a long MC session today the wife and I are planning a Divorce. We might send her home to the US now and then finalize divorce in December when I return. The benefits would be that she could start working and have medical insurance before D. That would reduce or eliminate ambiguity during the child support/alimony rulings. She's capable of making more than me so I'm looking forward to that aspect. Does anybody have any warnings for this plan? Aside from a short term financial burden and me not seeing the kids, this could be the best possible outcome.


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## farsidejunky

What and how was it discussed during MC if you don't mind me asking.

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## FeministInPink

farsidejunky said:


> What and how was it discussed during MC if you don't mind me asking.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Good question.


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## JonJon96

Well the MC gave us 4 options after the last session. He's very direct and I love it! 

1. Divorce now
2. Send the family home from overseas to legally separate
3. Live as roommates until my tour ends in November, then D
4. Re-build the marriage (4-5 times failed attempts)

She chose #2. I support this option because she obviously has quit but is not ready to say the word Divorce. Thats fine with me because I can provide them housing costs, medical and stability while she gets a steady job and security over the next 8 months. 

We kept revolving in a circular argument- I would commit 100% of my life to making her happy but would receive nothing back with regards to love, intimacy, acknowledgment or any other satisfaction. After so many months I would become frustrated and quit trying. She would claim she was always starting to "think I was changing" or "making real effort" but would not love me back until it was too late. 

Why did she wait? The Dr. said she set an impossible standard I would never reach. I could never love or serve her enough to reach her expectation because she was dead set on me failing. How sad is that? Well that inevitably results in D and here we are discussing the details...


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## turnera

Well, she started out selfish, you gave her everything (stuff, school loans, etc.), so she never really had to even TRY to be a decent wife.

Not your fault, you didn't know any better. 

Men, don't spoil your wives. I know you want to, but you will live to regret it.


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## Catherine602

Have you really thought this through? 

If you send your family away, you are going to suddenly disappear out of your children lives and you will not be there to help them settle in. Your STBX will need to manage the move, finding work and arranging childcare on her own. Do you know how she will be able to afford child care? Is she going to be able to find a place to live, move in all on her own with 3 children? Is it reasonable to believe that she will get high paying full-time job after being out of the work force for so long. The children will have to adjust to living with a single working mother when they are accustomed to a SAHM. 

You should try to convince her not to move until you move as a family. Given the difficulties of a move without you, this may be the most loving thing your can do for your children. It is a sacrifice but it is 8 months and what is that compared to a move of this type without you. Your STBX can move into separate apartment close to you for the time being. The children will adjust to two homes and then adjust to the the move.


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## TheTruthHurts

I think you've come up with the best solution to a bad situation.


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## JonJon96

The W and I have had lengthy discussions about the future. She really wants this move and we both believe it is a better alternative than living together angry or divorcing right away. This is where the military really takes care of us. She will have all the household goods shipped to her, travel and moving costs covered, along with a housing allowance that covers her rent/utilities. At this point we will share money still and I'll co-sign for a car/home lease. She will move in with family for a month waiting for home goods allowing her to shop for homes and schools. They will all have full medical and base facilities available. She plans to start working from home in the $15-35 an hour range so she can stay with the kids as much as possible. When school starts again in August she will look at more job opportunities that may require childcare. When I return we will finalize the D and she will stay in her current rental. At this point we agree on nearly all the terms of D and are very civil about the whole thing. We agree to an uncontested D without individual lawyers. After splitting the house sale and retirement investments she seems quite satisfied. We want what's best for the kids and she feels incredible guilt for failing to meet me halfway during years of MC. She has not been able to overcome her demons and she is hoping for emotional support / encouragement during her time as a single mother. We both have expressed that we love each other but we are better people apart. She wants me to see the kids as much as possible and hopes I can get stationed close to them. She will continue counseling the entire time I'm gone, to include child sessions. At this point it is a team effort and we're hoping it will stay that way. We are using this time to get her work history, confidence, IC, and most importantly a line of credit so she can be self sufficient upon D. I think this could work and I'm already seeing a better person now that the relationship pressure has been released. These are all acts of love that will pay unforeseen dividends if we can remain a team. I'll miss my kids dearly but I want what's best for them and that will take sacrifice from everyone.


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## john117

And all that because she could not "see past her demons"... In all these years of marriage.

Maybe the demons will be more understanding when she's a struggling single mom.

Still a good ending.


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## JonJon96

This was an emotional evening. I told her how much I loved her and how I believed she can become the same beautiful person I fell in love with when she's not distracted by me. The next six months should allow her to free herself from guilt over the failed marriage and relationship issues. Tonight we emboldened this parental team. We laid the foundation for a strong support system our kids will need over the next 10years.


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## john117

Jon, with all due respect, that's a heck of a "get out of jail card". You place a lot on the blame on you, and you take the financial hit as well. 

Ask yourself if she would grant you a similar potency "get out of jail card" if you did something wrong. 

I'm extracting myself from my zombie marriage in a little over a year but I have no illusions that she will get better if I'm not around. In fact I'm counting on the exact opposite.


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## Chuck71

One thing I have learned from this place is broken people who do not wish to look at themselves objectively

can wrap those bandages on really damn tight. The come off.... but sometimes this is after the 

other is committed..... M... child(ren), joint assets....


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## Catherine602

JonJon96 said:


> This was an emotional evening. I told her how much I loved her and how I believed she can become the same beautiful person I fell in love with when she's not distracted by me. The next six months should allow her to free herself from guilt over the failed marriage and relationship issues. Tonight we emboldened this parental team. We laid the foundation for a strong support system our kids will need over the next 10years.


I'm glad you are in verbal accord on important issues. It will take a lot of hard work and action to accomplish the verbal commitment. I can't understand why she is so anxious to move three children overseas without the help of their father. Certainly makes it easier for you. 

It's rare for a person to feel so guilty over a failed relationship. There is a natural tendency to see the faults of the partner and not feel totally responsible. She sounds like a dream STBX. Well this turned out good for you. Easy D, unencumbered by a wife and 3 children. Most of the burden for adjusting is on the STBX and kids. 

Did you try to persuade your wife to stay put for the months you have left? If you felt strongly about it, I am sure that you could plan something. You can move out of the house and let the children continue school and the current living arrangements. You avoid the rush of moving now and you will be involved in the move with your family. 

Also, you said you would try and get stationed near your children. Do you mean that this period is the last time you will be seeing your children every day? Why let them go then. Grab every minute you can with them now. 

I feel so sorry for your children.


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## JonJon96

John- I shoulder a portion of the guilt and fault but placing a percentage of blame on either person won't help at this point. We've made a decision and I/we are shifting our focus to the success of her next household. The success of our children in a new challenging environment filled with unknowns. It would be immature and selfish to play the blame game at this point. We played that game for years and nobody won. What would change if we kept on that way?


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## JonJon96

Chuck I'm sure she will have an epiphany at some point in the future realizing how her actions effected the M and her future. She's having a bit of that now but at some point she will stop blaming me for her problems because I'll be gone and the problems will remain.


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## JonJon96

Cath- you have to understand that I am on a special type of visa because I'm military ordered to be here. The government regulates my housing situation. They don't authorize families to live separately here. So moving out is not an option. She insists/I support the decision to send them for many reasons. 

1. We are creating a hostile environment for the kids. They are learning a poor example of parental units/H and W roles. 
2. If we wait for me to return, she will still have to do all these things to start her life, minus the extra income and military housing check she receives while we're married but separated. 
3. She has time to get steady employment while I'm still supporting her, opposed to taking CS and alimony while finding a job with less income. 
4. The kids will have consistency and stability before we tell them about the D. 
5. They can start the school year and the W can shop for the right school zone before they rent a home and commit. 
6. We can send the house hold goods to her opposed to them getting mandatorily sent to my next duty station. That means I would then have to pack her and the kids with a moving truck across the country a few months after returning. 
7. The W can start working on her self confidence and gain independence while not having to worry about finances. 

I lose the most on this deal because I won't see the kids for months. We will all have to sacrifice and I'm not so selfish that I would trade their success for my needs. Of course the kids need me too but this has to happen. I feel bad for them too.


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## Julius Beastcavern

I would ignore Catherine, she is obviously triggering about something. I think you have made the best choice possible considering the circumstances. You can hold your head up knowing you did what you could even though it didn't work out


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## JonJon96

Thanks Julious. I've noticed lots of people on TAM wear their battle wounds openly and they show them to everyone even when it's not appropriate. Eventually when they stop picking the scab it can heal and scar. 

Catherine appears to be a scorned woman that likely was hurt by a man and children probably suffered too. Every post is driven by emotion and she neglects the facts that have already been laid out. I'm being patient with her because I like to hear a range of opinions even if hers is illogical and incomplete. Hopefully she can look at situations more objectively and practice giving advice without letting her negative subjectivity influence the outcome.


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## john117

If that's how she's perceived I'm probably in the "Dresden after air raid" category 

TAM is all about experience sharing with the hope that some of the experiences match yours.


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## john117

The blame game isn't going to stop the minute the moving vans are said and done. You'll be seeing each other for another decade because of the children. If you don't sort out what happened in an objective way (which invariably involves assigning 'fault') you will need to do so in order to move forward. 

IC can help provide a more objective, more unbiased view. Otherwise despite what you feel about her now. When the impact of it hits you, you may not like where it will take you.

Maybe some people have a big heart. That's all that matters if you're like that. Others, not as much.


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## Chuck71

No D is 100 / 0 fault wise, nor is it 50 / 50 down the middle. JJ has accepted his POS tendencies and

is trying to improve himself. I hope his W does too. It is odd though... on some threads you

get bashed for breaking up a family but on others.... you get bashed for staying in a loveless M, that it's

best to D so the child(ren) will not grow up around so much dysfunction. 

JJs gotsta do what he thinks is best for himself and.... the kids. 

It takes two to make a M and two to crumble it. There is no single in a M


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## Catherine602

JonJon96 said:


> Thanks Julious. I've noticed lots of people on TAM wear their battle wounds openly and they show them to everyone even when it's not appropriate. Eventually when they stop picking the scab it can heal and scar.
> 
> Catherine appears to be a scorned woman that likely was hurt by a man and children probably suffered too. Every post is driven by emotion and she neglects the facts that have already been laid out. I'm being patient with her because I like to hear a range of opinions even if hers is illogical and incomplete. Hopefully she can look at situations more objectively and practice giving advice without letting her negative subjectivity influence the outcome.


I have one question for you. Who is the OW? 

No reasonable man with just 6 month left of an assignment would allow his wife to move house alone overseas with his 3 children. Why the hurry? You endured no sex for 6 yrs but now you are anxious to uproot them? You will not see them for 6 months and will never live with them again and you are willing to let them go? 

I bet if you had to take your 3 children on such a journey, you would be less sanguine. It is difficult enough to care for children in a controlled environment but one parent controlling 3 children in crowds, plane's, train's, autos, car seats, strollers, food, potty sleep, flight delays, ground transportation. What convoluted trick of reasoning would make you comfortable this. 

I don't buy your story, and I don't think your wife has willingly agreed to take this monumental responsibility on herself. It's not my bitterness that you detect, it's pealing of my bullsh!t detector. The needle is off the charts. 

Remember you are looked up to as a leader among men, defender of the realm, a man of honor, sacrifice, a protector, a man faithful to the mission. Complete your mission, you brought your family over, take them back home safely at the end of your tour.


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## JonJon96

I might have to take that advice and ignore you Cath. There is no other woman and sending my kids home to be with a woman would once again insinuate that I'm choosing a selfish alternative to fathering them. How deeply wounded are you? 

My W, the MC and I made a mature decision based on all the pros and cons of our options. I literally spelled out why just for you. Are you dense or has man hating consumed you? I'm not pushing for them to leave. Look at my OP. 

The whole reason I came on here was to be anonymous and explain my situation to gain insight from others with similar situations. I've confessed many things on here and I'm embarrassed by most of them. Just because you are not familiar with sensible parents in a complicated divorce does not mean I'm a liar. Which you have called me. 

So you've called me a liar, cheater, bad father and now you're also questioning my dedication to the nation during a time of war? All with zero facts or basis from any of my statements. 

Isn't there a moderator in this place that can reel this lady in? YOU are a TROLL!!! GO AWAY!


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## JonJon96

Thanks Chuck. If I had to quantity it, I would say some days I was 100% at fault and others she was 100%. Most days somewhere in the middle. The difference between her and I was that I very easily can forgive and move on. As proven by the thread over the last 6 months. She could never forgive. She just kept it all inside and added another brick in the wall. 

It's sad but I'm ready to move on and focus on the kids.


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## JonJon96

John- don't get me wrong, I totally blame her for many aspects of the failed marriage and vice verse. She clammed up over traumatic childhood issues. That caused me to treat her poorly for not being my lover and partner. She never opened back up because of this vicious cycle. As she guarded more I felt more alone and rejected. We just weren't capable of crawling out of that cycle for 7yrs. We still love each other but we are not capable of being in love with eachother. That is why you are witnessing such an amicable separation.


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## threelittlestars

Jon, read this whole thread and man, Wow. 

Your wife, I sadly feel a kinship to... I fear i am turning into her. See, the difference with us is i LOVE sex and all the emotions and intimacies that go with it. But when i found out he cheated (no hall pass for him) my emotions have shut down. Im a cold fish. I don't want his hugs. Kisses or teasing affection anymore. It turns my stomach at times. 

I so desperately want to get back to where i was (Unlike your wife who has never really tried to fix intimacy) instead she sees you as a meal ticket and I'm sure suffered in her own way these many years. 

Maybe you were to harsh and cruel in the past. I know my husbands actions were horribly cruel and the things he said about me in email to the other women... Oiy... Some of it saying i was lazy... I think he was too critical of me when i NEVER was of him even though i could say many of the same things back to him i told myself he did so much already. 

But my story is not yours, what insight i may impart is that like you said you were wrong... You have apologized. Like my own husband has,... But your wife can't get over it, or let it go... i seem to be the same. I see myself turning into her. Giving up in many ways. Giving up because my self esteem is so low that if a man compliments me i may fold like a deck of cards to the ego stroke... Pathetic really. So i eat a huge slice of pizza and wear the same pajamas that i wore yesterday... Make myself undesirable...self fulfilling sabotage. He will want me to hug him but my arms won't go around his middle. I turn away when he tries.... 

Honestly I'm not even allowing him to try to work on things and you are right that constant rejection wears down a person. Im not even trying to punish him. I just can't let go of my pain, anger and rage....Some days are better than others and i can really show him that i at the very least appreciate. 

Facing some harsh realities may be what she needs. 

I personally hope to manage to work on my issues and not do what she has done to you. Two wrongs never make a right. Better to divorce and remain friends. Glad you have decided to end things. Im not sure i agree with you always letting her decide, but you been more than accommodating.


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## JonJon96

TLS- first off, I'm sorry that happened to you. Thanks for your insight. I honestly believe I am well versed in this particular field due to the fact I've seen several MC and Psychs evaluate my wife and how the relationship ended up here. 

My advice to you is to make a decision. Be honest with yourself and your H. If you have any interest in being his partner again, build a plan and ask for his support. You need to build up your self confidence but don't do it for anybody but YOU. Work out, eat right, get adequate sleep and avoid negative people in your life. Find your strengths and set attainable goals. Tell your H this is your plan to get healthy so you can be part of the marriage. Tell him what triggers you have that will hinder your success. Explain to him that setbacks, criticism or negatively from him will slow the plan down and drive a wedge between you. Find a way to communicate when you're feeling the triggers getting pulled. Statements like "I feel like you are xxxxxx" When you accomplish those goals- be proud and earn the praise of others. Feel good about yourself! This takes time and we men don't know how much destruction our passive aggressive, jokes, negativity can really do to a spouse. 

If he's not willing to support you in that mission, he's not worth keeping around. If you can't commit to that plan with his support than maybe you have to do it as a single woman which is the sad alternative and consequently the situation I'm in now. This is elementary- how can you love someone else if you don't love yourself? As you find yourself again, he needs to win your heart back. Tell him what that takes. Find out what your love languages are and how to express them for eachother. 

When you feel great about yourself and he realizes what an amazing confident woman he has, I think you'll see real change in him. If not than he's already given up. In that case you're still strong enough to do what's necessary and make it on your own as an independent woman.


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## farsidejunky

Catherine602 said:


> I have one question for you. Who is the OW?
> 
> No reasonable man with just 6 month left of an assignment would allow his wife to move house alone overseas with his 3 children. Why the hurry? You endured no sex for 6 yrs but now you are anxious to uproot them? You will not see them for 6 months and will never live with them again and you are willing to let them go?
> 
> I bet if you had to take your 3 children on such a journey, you would be less sanguine. It is difficult enough to care for children in a controlled environment but one parent controlling 3 children in crowds, plane's, train's, autos, car seats, strollers, food, potty sleep, flight delays, ground transportation. What convoluted trick of reasoning would make you comfortable this.
> 
> I don't buy your story, and I don't think your wife has willingly agreed to take this monumental responsibility on herself. It's not my bitterness that you detect, it's pealing of my bullsh!t detector. The needle is off the charts.
> 
> Remember you are looked up to as a leader among men, defender of the realm, a man of honor, sacrifice, a protector, a man faithful to the mission. Complete your mission, you brought your family over, take them back home safely at the end of your tour.


Catherine, are you okay?

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## MJJEAN

Catherine602 said:


> I bet if you had to take your 3 children on such a journey, you would be less sanguine. It is difficult enough to care for children in a controlled environment but one parent controlling 3 children in crowds, plane's, train's, autos, car seats, strollers, food, potty sleep, flight delays, ground transportation. What convoluted trick of reasoning would make you comfortable this.
> 
> I don't buy your story, and I don't think your wife has willingly agreed to take this monumental responsibiility.


I don't know where you come from or what your world view is, but my family has a long history of military service. A few of my friends are either military men or married to military men.

Being responsible for travelling alone with children, going on ahead to set up housing, long separations where you are pretty much a single parent...these are all things that wives of men who serve in the armed forces signed up for! That`s the reality of being a military wife. So, actually, she DID agree to take on that "monumental responsibility" when she married a military man.


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## Chuck71

threelittlestars said:


> Jon, read this whole thread and man, Wow.
> 
> Your wife, I sadly feel a kinship to... I fear i am turning into her. See, the difference with us is i LOVE sex and all the emotions and intimacies that go with it. But when i found out he cheated (no hall pass for him) my emotions have shut down. Im a cold fish. I don't want his hugs. Kisses or teasing affection anymore. It turns my stomach at times.
> 
> I so desperately want to get back to where i was (Unlike your wife who has never really tried to fix intimacy) instead she sees you as a meal ticket and I'm sure suffered in her own way these many years.
> 
> Maybe you were to harsh and cruel in the past. I know my husbands actions were horribly cruel and the things he said about me in email to the other women... Oiy... Some of it saying i was lazy... I think he was too critical of me when i NEVER was of him even though i could say many of the same things back to him i told myself he did so much already.
> 
> But my story is not yours, what insight i may impart is that like you said you were wrong... You have apologized. Like my own husband has,... But your wife can't get over it, or let it go... i seem to be the same. I see myself turning into her. Giving up in many ways. Giving up because my self esteem is so low that if a man compliments me i may fold like a deck of cards to the ego stroke... Pathetic really. So i eat a huge slice of pizza and wear the same pajamas that i wore yesterday... Make myself undesirable...self fulfilling sabotage. He will want me to hug him but my arms won't go around his middle. I turn away when he tries....
> 
> Honestly I'm not even allowing him to try to work on things and you are right that constant rejection wears down a person. Im not even trying to punish him. I just can't let go of my pain, anger and rage....Some days are better than others and i can really show him that i at the very least appreciate.
> 
> Facing some harsh realities may be what she needs.
> 
> I personally hope to manage to work on my issues and not do what she has done to you. Two wrongs never make a right. Better to divorce and remain friends. Glad you have decided to end things. Im not sure i agree with you always letting her decide, but you been more than accommodating.


I can almost relate to your story, of course gender reversed. My XW had an EA with a guy about

500 miles away. They never met, she never intended to. BTW... they met in a AOL chat room LOL

But it was 2007. I exposed it. She was sending him letters that were 95% fulla schit.

She sent him a revealing two-piece bathing suit shot.... that was taken ten years and 100 pounds prior.

She also sent a snatch pic.... but Chuck how did you know it was her? Her Marlboro pack was in the shot LMAO

The guy was M, two kids... he wasn't going anywhere. But the way she spoke about me... yeah, I get that.

Course it did open the door for me to address her misgivings. She didn't like that at all.

We had been together ten years by then but I was still considering a D.

We had hysterical bonding but when that subsided, it never was the same. A huge brick on The Wall.

To some degree... I was never 100% all in for the M after that. It does something to you.

I placed a lot of bricks on The Wall myself. I still loved her and she still loved me.... but 

there isn't much you can do when The Wall is 15 feet tall and neither of us can climb.


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## threelittlestars

Chuck71 said:


> I can almost relate to your story, of course gender reversed. My XW had an EA with a guy about
> 
> 500 miles away. They never met, she never intended to. BTW... they met in a AOL chat room LOL
> 
> But it was 2007. I exposed it. She was sending him letters that were 95% fulla schit.
> 
> She sent him a revealing two-piece bathing suit shot.... that was taken ten years and 100 pounds prior.
> 
> She also sent a snatch pic.... but Chuck how did you know it was her? Her Marlboro pack was in the shot LMAO
> 
> The guy was M, two kids... he wasn't going anywhere. But the way she spoke about me... yeah, I get that.
> 
> Course it did open the door for me to address her misgivings. She didn't like that at all.
> 
> We had been together ten years by then but I was still considering a D.
> 
> We had hysterical bonding but when that subsided, it never was the same. A huge brick on The Wall.
> 
> To some degree... I was never 100% all in for the M after that. It does something to you.
> 
> I placed a lot of bricks on The Wall myself. I still loved her and she still loved me.... but
> 
> there isn't much you can do when The Wall is 15 feet tall and neither of us can climb.


10 YEAR OLD PICTURE? and a hundred lb weight difference. Wow.... that does nothing to help her esteem. 

Did you divorce? 



Thanks OP. 

I have done a few of the things you mentioned. 

The project i am throwing myself into is we are buying some land in the Olympic mountain foot hills. Its five acres, and i plan on building my own house. An earthship. Not permitted. :smile2: (Im a bit of a hippy) I plan on having my farm again. I grew up on one and its been over 12 years since i lived with farm animals and its my dream to get back there in a self sufficient capacity. If worse comes to worse we I can live there, and he can live in our house that we currently live on but have a mortgage. 

So this plan is great to build our marriage, but also to get a housing set up affordably for the both of us of the worst should happen. I believe dreams can make or break your life. Without dreams there is only the daily grind. Same with marriage. When partners stop sharing dreams they stop being partners and only room mates. Thankfully my husband has the same dream as i do, and now finally the will to make it happen. 

Im still trying in my marriage. I was blissfully happy for about ten years of it. I think i can be again.


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## Chuck71

threelittlestars said:


> 10 YEAR OLD PICTURE? and a hundred lb weight difference. Wow.... that does nothing to help her esteem.
> 
> Did you divorce?


Yes we did.... late 2012. Left my two D threads up. Very short reads.


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## Abc123wife

Catherine602 said:


> I bet if you had to take your 3 children on such a journey, you would be less sanguine. It is difficult enough to care for children in a controlled environment but one parent controlling 3 children in crowds, plane's, train's, autos, car seats, strollers, food, potty sleep, flight delays, ground transportation. What convoluted trick of reasoning would make you comfortable this.


I just want to say here that this is the norm for a military family. My mom did it repeatedly over my dad's 30+ career including moving across country with 5 kids under 4.5 years old (no typo there) while my dad was in Korea for 1.5 years. And later doing it with 7 of us! My mom was always the one left behind sometimes for months with the kids to get the house ready to sell, pack, and oversee the move.

I have myself done it 3 times with my kids with job changes for my husband (not military). Each time required managing kids, job, keeping the house spotless for showings, making moving arrangements, etc. First time was with a 2 year old and a newborn while having just gone back to my job from maternity leave and while writing my PhD dissertation. Second time was with 4 kids ages 6-13 years. Most recent time with 4 ornery teenagers who did not want to move! 

Point is. It is not unusual (still not easy). It is done all the time, and does not mean there is infidelity involved.


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## Catherine602

I am sorry JonJon. I reacted unfairly to you and it's my problem not yours. It it is apparent form your description of your relationship with your wife that she is not loving towards you. It must be hell living with a person day after day who should love you but does not act loving. 

In way of explaining my words to you and asking you to forgive me, I have problems with children being abandoned (real or imagined by me). My father cheated on my mother from the 2nd yr of their marriage till he died. My mother was depressed and my sister, 2 brothers and I were essentially forgotten. 

I always blamed my father because his actions of betrayal were obvious. In the last few months, I realized that it was not only my father who abandoned us, my mother did too. 

Also my anger towards real or imagined cheats is intense and not always reasonable. Plus the reflex of blaming only my father is still strong but I am certain it will weaken with time. So, I picked your thread to go crazy, sorry. You don't need that stress when you are looking for help and support. 

Whatever you decide to do will be right for you and your wife and family, I am sure. In the end, it will be the best. I hope you come back and post. Blessings to you and your family.


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## farsidejunky

Catherine602 said:


> I am sorry JonJon. I reacted unfairly to you and it's my problem not yours. It it is apparent form your description of your relationship with your wife that she is not loving towards you. It must be hell living with a person day after day who should love you but does not act loving.
> 
> In way of explaining my words to you and asking you to forgive me, I have problems with children being abandoned (real or imagined by me). My father cheated on my mother from the 2nd yr of their marriage till he died. My mother was depressed and my sister, 2 brothers and I were essentially forgotten. I always blamed my father because his actions of betrayal were obvious. In the last few months, I realized that it was not only my father who abandoned us my mother abandoned us too.
> 
> Also my anger towards real or imagined cheats is intense and not always reasonable. Plus the reflex of blaming only my father is still strong but I am certain it will weaken with time. So, I picked your thread to go crazy, sorry. You don't need that stress when you are looking for help and support.
> 
> Do what you need to do and as advised. In the end, it will be the best. Blessings to you and your family.


That took courage and humility, @Catherine602.

You rock.



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## wringo123

Catherine602 said:


> I have one question for you. Who is the OW?
> 
> No reasonable man with just 6 month left of an assignment would allow his wife to move house alone overseas with his 3 children. Why the hurry? You endured no sex for 6 yrs but now you are anxious to uproot them? You will not see them for 6 months and will never live with them again and you are willing to let them go?
> 
> I bet if you had to take your 3 children on such a journey, you would be less sanguine. It is difficult enough to care for children in a controlled environment but one parent controlling 3 children in crowds, plane's, train's, autos, car seats, strollers, food, potty sleep, flight delays, ground transportation. What convoluted trick of reasoning would make you comfortable this.
> 
> I don't buy your story, and I don't think your wife has willingly agreed to take this monumental responsibility on herself. It's not my bitterness that you detect, it's pealing of my bullsh!t detector. The needle is off the charts.
> 
> Remember you are looked up to as a leader among men, defender of the realm, a man of honor, sacrifice, a protector, a man faithful to the mission. Complete your mission, you brought your family over, take them back home safely at the end of your tour.


I am an Army brat my mom did it multiple times with 5 kids. Not two mention 3 unaccompied tours my Dad did overseas. This was in the day before facetime and texting and email. They went more than a whole year without so much as speaking to each other.

Get a clue. You have no concept of military family life. 

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## farsidejunky

wringo123 said:


> I am an Army brat my mom did it multiple times with 5 kids. Not two mention 3 unaccompied tours my Dad did overseas. This was in the day before facetime and texting and email. They went more than a whole year without so much as speaking to each other.
> 
> Get a clue. You have no concept of military family life.
> 
> Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


She got it.

See the post above yours.

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## FeministInPink

farsidejunky said:


> That took courage and humility, @Catherine602.
> 
> You rock.


I agree. It doesn't take a lot of courage to tell someone off or state one's opposition online, just ask any troll.

It takes a LOT of guts to own up to one's mistakes and apologize.

You're working through some heavy sh!t. Take responsibility for yourself--but don't beat yourself up, either.

Good on you for apologizing.


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## JonJon96

Thank you for the sincere apology. I'm sorry you're hurting and I genuinely forgive you. I hope you can work through those problems without damaging the relationships with those you love. That's what happened with my wife and that's why I'm trying to help her end the destructive cycle before she gets involved with another person. 

None of us are perfect though. I wish you the best.


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## JonJon96

So the W will find a rental home and car with the help of my family in Florida. She plans to work from home using call service jobs. She will build credit but use our joint funds for all costs. When I return to the states we will have spent an equal amount on cars so it's fair. Once we D, we will pay off all credit cards equally and split the bank account down the middle. Then she will collect CS moving forward. This should work as long as she doesn't get greedy. We separate in a few days.


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## TheTruthHurts

Good luck


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