# To Grad School or not to Grad School



## webinfront (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm new here - looking for opinions more or less.

My wife and I have been married a month now - but together over 4 years prior to getting married, own a house together and both have decent paying jobs. She's in retail and I've got a career job. 

She finally finished her undergrad work and got a bachelor's degree this past spring and just got accepted to grad school. She told me it will cost around $15K before books before the entire degree and it's online so she at least doesn't have to move away for months at a time and leave me hanging to pay the mortgage. She plans on continuing to work full time which is good, however she just told me that she really wants to go "just to go and get better educated" with no real plans of pursuing a career in the degree she wants a masters in. Luckily it's not super expensive, but paying 15 grand + books for a masters and then not doing anything with it seems a bit foolish, especially when we have a mortgage and a fair amount of credit card debt.

I'd like for her to go and pursue her dream, but if she's most likely not going to at least try to get a job based on her credentials, is it just going to be a waste of money?


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Depends on the degree. 

I am in accounting, and I know a Master's makes it easier to pass the CPA, which most places give you a $5k hiring bonus for it, and makes you stand out and more likely to receive promotions. 

I know right now, BBA's are almost worthless, because so many people have them. A guy at my work had one. What did he do? Customer Service for a grocery store at $9.75 an hour. 
MBA's are what you need to get ahead. 

But also depends, because some degrees are worthless. Another person at my work has their masters...in classical English literature. Real useful there honey...

It all depends on the degree.


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## Moiraine (Dec 30, 2011)

What does she hope to get out of this degree? When you say you want her to pursue her dream, what are her dreams?


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## webinfront (Oct 26, 2012)

She wants to do a degree creative writing/english. Her ultimate goal is to be a published author/teacher. But the way she talked to me about it sounded like she wasn't really considering using the degree to pursue a career outside of retail, which concerns me. Like her exact words were "I just want to work on my writing and English skills." and all I can ask is "And then what?"


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## Moiraine (Dec 30, 2011)

Does she want to pursue her career as a creative writer while she's working full time in retail? Maybe she doesn't want to get a more time consuming job so she can focus on her writing.


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## webinfront (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm unclear on that. I know she wants to get out of retail in a few years altogether and when she first talked about grad school she made it sound like she wanted the degree so she could get a better job, but now it sounds like she just wants a degree to say she has it? I don't know. Her current job pays her pretty well and she gets great benefits, so I don't know. Maybe she just doesn't know what she wants.


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## Moiraine (Dec 30, 2011)

How old are you two?

I think it's never easy to figure out what you want in life. If you guys have the money and her going to school will not put you two in financial hardship, then I say go for it. You never know what she can get out of this degree. She may eventually be an accomplished writer and make more than you will ever make


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## webinfront (Oct 26, 2012)

Moiraine said:


> How old are you two?
> 
> I think it's never easy to figure out what you want in life. If you guys have the money and her going to school will not put you two in financial hardship, then I say go for it. You never know what she can get out of this degree. She may eventually be an accomplished writer and make more than you will ever make


I'm almost 29 and she's almost 25. And yeah - the biggest thing that concerns me is credit debt coupled with a school loan and then our mortgage on top of that all. Though we wouldn't have to make payments until after she's done, which would be 2 years so that gives us time to pay that down to a more manageable level, plus we would most likely get an education credit in our tax return (which are awesome btw). I'm probably just over thinking the whole thing. I do hope she has success with getting a masters and get ahead and I'm with her every step of the way.


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## colotnk (Feb 3, 2012)

I'm a big advocate for education and I would say go for it if you guys don't have a lot of debts. Given that you have CC debts, I think it would make more sense to pay those off before she pursues a grad degree. 

I don't see much negativity with her waiting a few years before going to grad school. Personally, I would lose motivation as I get older and more tied up with family and kids responsibilities. Given her age, I don't think it would be much of an issue for her.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

First of all, the cost of the program is not just financial. A Master's degree is 3 years of so part-time? That's three years of her balancing school and work, making time for you, while you pick up the slack around the home. Think long and hard before deciding that the significant disruption to your lives is worth it.

Secondly, check of the credentials of the school. You don't want to invest any time and money in an education with a poor reputation. IMO you want something with some esteem and marketability, and are better off saving up and spending more to get it.

On the other hand, if this is something purely for personal pleasure, and increasing her professional potential is besides the point, then she is in truth pursuing a hobby and it should be prioritized accordingly.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Graduate school should be able to pay for itself. If not, then, while it's a hobby, that's all it is.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Graduate school should be able to pay for itself. If not, then, while it's a hobby, that's all it is.


Agree. And that's true for all degrees and programs of study. I went to college to get a marketable degree and make a good living. I don't understand why people pursue obscure degrees without any intent of getting a job in the field, or go to expensive private schools that are marginally better (if not equal to or worse) than affordable public universities.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

webinfront said:


> She wants to do a *degree creative writing/english*. Her ultimate goal is to be a published author/teacher. But the way she talked to me about it sounded like she wasn't really considering using the degree to pursue a career outside of retail, which concerns me. Like her exact words were "I just want to work on my writing and English skills." and all I can ask is "And then what?"


Just going to say it. 

Worthless degree. 

When I go to a job interview in several years (or hopefully sooner), I'll have a CPA and my masters in Accounting. A useful degree. 

What can you do with a degree in creative writing? 
Write creative stories about why my refrigerator and wallet are both empty. You aren't going to get a job with it. 

Sorry if it sounds mean, but hey, it's life.


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## Michael A. Brown (Oct 16, 2012)

If your wife do have her stable job already, she can focus on it already even without getting on the grad school.


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## farside (Oct 27, 2012)

unless someone is independently wealthy, pursing an unnecessary graduate degree in this economy is pretty crazy. This is coming from someone with a law degree and six figures of debt that came with it.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

farside said:


> unless someone is independently wealthy, pursing an unnecessary graduate degree in this economy is pretty crazy. This is coming from someone with a law degree and six figures of debt that came with it.


Ah yes the great fallacy. Everyone thinks all lawyers are multimillionaires whereas most of them go into the public sector or they hang out a shingle and squeak by. I must have had a hole in my head to put my wife through law school especially since she never practiced. 

I keep telling to go into criminal defense.


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## old pilot (Oct 9, 2012)

Creative writing? You gotta be kidding me. You married an idiot.
Look the posts here and you will see "Creative Writing."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She's riding on your coat tails to get to have fun with college. If she were on her own, she wouldn't be getting a degree just for fun. She'd be paying down her debt and getting serious in her job or looking for a career job with her Bachelors. IIWY, I would say 'if you get a Masters in your field that you intend to work in - and that does NOT include trying to write and sell books - go for it. But I won't agree with a for-fun degree when we are in debt and will be starting a family in the next few years.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

webinfront said:


> . . . She told me it will cost around $15K before books before the entire degree and it's online . . .


Seems low. Not disrespecting on-line universities, I have a degree from one but . . . I generally don’t post it on my resume. 



Broken at 20 said:


> . . . I know right now, BBA's are almost worthless, because so many people have them. . .


Meh, MBAs are a dime a dozen too. Especially on-line MBAs.



webinfront said:


> . . . She wants to do a degree creative writing/english. Her ultimate goal is to be a published author/teacher. . .


Sounds like good debt.



webinfront said:


> . . . the biggest thing that concerns me is credit debt . . . Though we wouldn't have to make payments until after she's done . . . we would most likely get an education credit in our tax return


Yes, if you’ve got a bit of consumer debt you should consider busting chops to pay that down first. No payments but for a graduate degree interest will immediately accrue no? Yup, the credit will help. There are a couple options there look at them all.

Realistically, you’re looking at a bedroom set from Ethan Allen. For the skill set, she’d probably be just as well off participating in writing workshops. As a basis for teaching probably OK. She have or intends to obtain a teaching certificate? Or does she think she is going to teach at the college level – if so I’d recommend a brick and mortar degree.

What’s you objectives with regard to starting a family?

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. If you’re not crazy into consumer debt, don’t plan on kids for a while you both could spend your money on worse things.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

In todays economy, there are lots of prople with masters degrees sweating out their last unemployment check. At least your wife has skills in retail.

I have no respect for degrees, I went into the work force out of high school. I found out my pocket was being picked by labor unions and moved to a "right to work" state. I was almost immediately given an engineering position with a fortune 500 company......

During 45 years in manufacturing, I have seen incredible blunders by degreed individuals. I have interned young engineers, and showed them how the real world works

I have seen a quality engineer with a masters in "total quality management" measure parts by laying them on a xerox machine, xeroxing an image, and putting the calipers to the image....Sheesh......

I have a nephiew working on a degree in spanish, and a neice with a degree in Japanese...She works in a pizza joint

I concepted $9,000,000 automated assembly lines, and did design work on miniature spy submarines......My problem solving skills kept factories from shutting down.....If you own a chain saw with chain brake, U.L measures how quickly the brake stops the chain with a test fixture I designed....

My last position was at Denso corp. One of the largest OEM builders in the world. My first year annual performance review was "You made me look like a fuc#ing genius for hiring you".
Five years later my annual review was "You have the highest evaluation in your engineering department...

If I had gotten a degree, I might have sat on my a$$ waiting for the big money job I thought I was entitled to... 

My advice is "before you go for a masters, learn something useful that you can earn a living at".....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Woodchuck said:


> In todays economy, there are lots of prople with masters degrees sweating out their last unemployment check. At least your wife has skills in retail.
> 
> I have no respect for degrees, I went into the work force out of high school. I found out my pocket was being picked by labor unions and moved to a "right to work" state. I was almost immediately given an engineering position with a fortune 500 company......
> 
> ...


On the other hand....if you get a math degree, you can name your price at NASA or any other high-tech organization. And degreed individuals, on average, will out-earn others 3 to 1.

My husband has more experience and kudos in the electronics industry than 4/5 of all others in the industry, his chronology is 4 pages long, yet he can't get through the electronic resume filters.


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## Moiraine (Dec 30, 2011)

Woodchuck said:


> In todays economy, there are lots of prople with masters degrees sweating out their last unemployment check. At least your wife has skills in retail.
> 
> I have no respect for degrees, I went into the work force out of high school. I found out my pocket was being picked by labor unions and moved to a "right to work" state. I was almost immediately given an engineering position with a fortune 500 company......


This is not the case with everything. You do need degrees to get some jobs. In the healthcare field, it's impossible to be a practitioner without going through school. I'm currently pursuing a master's degree. I know my degree will not be worthless. Our school has 100% employment statistics for graduates. In fact, everyone is able to find a job even before they graduate.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I really can't think of a single subject I couldn't learn more about simply by reading the right books, visiting the right web sites, talking to the right people, etc. Learning is a life-long process and very little of it takes place in institutions.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

We can ALL keep learning. 

But you can guarantee you won't get the better jobs - = decent pay = without the degree you get from actually, you know, attending a real university.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> On the other hand....if you get a math degree, you can name your price at NASA or any other high-tech organization. And degreed individuals, on average, will out-earn others 3 to 1.
> 
> My husband has more experience and kudos in the electronics industry than 4/5 of all others in the industry, his chronology is 4 pages long, yet he can't get through the electronic resume filters.


I was hired to design miniature submarines without a face to face interview. The VP read my resume, called me with an offer, and waived the requirement for a degree.....Two weeks into the job I was called into his office. I figured they didn't like my work. To my surprise I was given a pat on the back and a raise.

Degreed individuals were often embarrased to ask me for help, but I had a diverse, out of the box background, and never had a design fail. 

The quality manager at a Borg warner plant was stuck with a bad electrical connection issue in a solenoid valve...He asked how to check the connection after assembly...I said energize the coil and look at the heat signature with infrared or use ray with recognition software...A week later I was in Connecticut buying X ray equipment...It worked, but so would have the other suggestion...

At the same plant, a female engineer with a masters in metalurgy was constantly having a press adjusted for a screw breakage problem. Finally a little old lady (GED) who worked on the line said "It looks like hydrogen embrittlement to me" It was hydrogen embrittlement....Masters degree my a$$......

She had her hubby pay the freight for her degree, and didn't know anything....Got the job because of a piece of paper and couldn't do it.......Get a degree if you must, but don't quit your day job....


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

It depends on what your goals are. Are you saving up to start a family? How bad is the debt situation? 

I'd sit down with your wife and an excel spreadsheet, and really tally up what you already spend, what your existing debt-load is, and what it will realistically cost you per month and in total, for her to go to school (both in tuition and supplies, and in lost income). 

If you guys can still meet any goals that you may have, then why not? No sense in having her always think of what could've been... but if it doesn't fit with your goals and current expenses, then that should be fairly clear to both of you once you go through it.


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## LoveBeingFemale (Nov 5, 2012)

I have an MBA--I'm a stay at home mom. My plan was to go back to work when our children were in school, but that didn't happen, and I've been home for well over a decade (I love being home by the way). If I had to do it over, I would not have gotten the MBA. If she is planning on going for the MBA, she should do it before there are any children, as it's a major undertaking. I would pay down the debt first, especially in this economy, and skip getting the MBA right now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I suggest reading Rich Dad Poor Dad and incorporating his plans.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

I have a master's degree. I make pretty good money(almost six figures), but I could have made the same with a bachelor's. I think a lot of grad degrees are a waste of money, unless the degree is in a highly lucrative field that requires a grad degree. I know way too many people who owe 100k plus in student loans. Luckily, I only owe about 20k.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It truly does depend on the field. In DD22's field, a bachelors will get you a $20,000/year elementary school counselor job. A masters will get you a $50,000 psychologist's degree. A PhD will get you a $100,000 research degree.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

turnera said:


> It truly does depend on the field. In DD22's field, a bachelors will get you a $20,000/year elementary school counselor job. A masters will get you a $50,000 psychologist's degree. A PhD will get you a $100,000 research degree.


Definitely true in some fields. I was thinking in Corporate America, where you usually need s bachelor's, but not much more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Maybe because you just don't learn that much more in a business PhD degree.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

turnera said:


> Maybe because you just don't learn that much more in a business PhD degree.


I actually have an English degree, but work in the corporate world. I work with lots of people with lots of different degrees. Now if I had to do it over again, I would never have gone for a degree in English. But at the time, I wanted to teach. That's until I realized I couldn't live on a teacher's salary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

consultant, you're obviously an entrepreneur. Good for you. That's not for everyone. DD22 would never be comfortable OR enjoy that - she wants structure, she wants science, and she wants to be learning about the human brain and psychology. Hard to do that without a PhD.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And it's getting a little irritating watching you hop all over the place here pitching your business, especially when you start dissing others to do so.


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

I think thing are going to get bad here in the next 24 months, you might ask her to put this on hold untill 2015 and then if things are ok, she can do it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Try getting a job at a major research university without a PhD. They will never even LOOK at your resume. Could you go off on your own like Einstein today and create your own research empire? Maybe. But even he worked at a university.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I'm getting a second degree in comparative literature and it's been incredibly helpful in terms of my usual work which is decision science. I'll be applying for my PhD. 

I think 15K is pretty low for an on-line degree. I'd say she should try to find a degree program she can do in person because typically a master's degree comes with teaching or research assistantships along with the tuition.

At any rate, if you try to come between a writer and the pursuit of their trade, it's a losing battle. You'll end up with a repressed, depressed, frustrated, caged-up, pent-up, angry individual. She might try to appease you by looking for fulfillment in other ways that are more normally/economically/socially acceptable, but in the end the degree and the writing are going to happen. Help her to create that space and to absolutely secure it in your home and your relationship and I can almost guarantee your love life and everything else including your economic situation (because of the demeanor of fulfilled persons in your home, and the ripple effect this has) will be beyond your wildest dreams. Writing is a gift. Not everyone wants to do it. People should be open-minded about what a literature/writing degree can lead to. Each writer tends to have a specific set of ideas that they absolutely must communicate to the rest of the world, or the part of it that wants to listen. 

Talents should be encouraged and multiplied, not buried! There is even a parable about this. If you bury it, it will explode, and it won't be pretty.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

She does not need a Masters degree to improve her creative writing skills. Most published writers do not have degrees in creative writing. They have a natural talent that they nurtured.

Ask her to put this off for a while so that you two of you can setting into your marriage, pay down debt, etc.

In the mean time she can be working on her skills and writing, trying to get published. See how it goes.

A person should be able to do what they want in life, even when married. But it needs to be worked out in a way that does not burden the marriage financially, time wise, etc.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

tennisstar said:


> Definitely true in some fields. I was thinking in Corporate America, where you usually need s bachelor's, but not much more.


Really? In what specific occupations and industries do you find this to be true?

Check out this article: Top 10 In-Demand Careers - Yahoo! Education

Then look at the entries for accountant, financial analyst, and database admininstrator (4, 8, & 9).

Being a marketable accountant generally requires a CPA license. Know what a CPA license requires? In most states, it takes a master's level education (150 semester hours), then passing a 16 hour exam, then having one or more years of supervised practical experience in a variety of practice areas.

Scan the job offers for financial analyst and see how many prefer if not require an MBA. In this economy, require means you'd better have one, because the competition will.

Database administrator? Doesn't the article say that bigger companies may prefer someone with an MBA?

Ironically (given your assertion), Corporate America is the main driver of this situation. Firms are unwilling to invest extended effort in potential. Rather, they want staff ready to add value soon after coming on board. So, you get necessary firm and company specific orientation and training, but that's mostly it.

Firms expect you master a broad set of basic (if not advanced) skills relevant to your profession AND show your ability to apply them in a practical manner. Unless you already have a nice job with broadly applicable skills, this becomes a Catch-22.

IMO, that (along with licensing requirements) is why Master's degrees are highly beneficial if not essential to your career. I know some people pooh-pooh college, but the reality is a Master's degree from a reputable school shows you have mastered the basic concepts, added advanced concepts to your skill set, and (via the seminar format and terminal option) 
can intelligently apply them to practical situations.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

DTO said:


> Really? In what specific occupations and industries do you find this to be true?
> 
> Check out this article: Top 10 In-Demand Careers - Yahoo! Education
> 
> ...



I work for a top fortune 20 company and haven't found a master's degree particularly helpful or needed. I have a master's, but I have coworkers with bachelor's who make the same or more than me. Our top people only have bachelor's. 

I definitely know some fields require grad degrees, but my experience in Corporate America is it is not required.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewHubs (Dec 23, 2012)

Sorry to bring this thread back full circle but I went to school part time to get my MBA and I find that it's totally worthless. Three years later I can confidently say it did absolutely nothing for me. It did not give me the salary I should be making and right now I'm unemployed. 

On my last interview they asked what makes me stand out from other the candidates and I told them the usual BS lines employers like to hear and I threw in that I have an MBA. 
Well the guy interviewing paused for a minute and said, "so what if you have an MBA, 70% of the people on our team have one."

From that point I knew it was useless. I mean I always knew it was but this guy whether you agree or disagree really hit the nail on the head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NewHubs said:


> Sorry to bring this thread back full circle but I went to school part time to get my MBA and I find that it's totally worthless. Three years later I can confidently say it did absolutely nothing for me. It did not give me the salary I should be making and right now I'm unemployed.
> 
> On my last interview they asked what makes me stand out from other the candidates and I told them the usual BS lines employers like to hear and I threw in that I have an MBA.
> Well the guy interviewing paused for a minute and said, "so what if you have an MBA, *70% of the people on our team have one*."
> ...


So they hire more people with MBAs than without them. That would make you more likely to be hired I'd think. Perhaps it would be of use next time to ask how many of the people they are interviewing have MBAs.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

NewHubs said:


> Sorry to bring this thread back full circle but I went to school part time to get my MBA and I find that it's totally worthless. Three years later I can confidently say it did absolutely nothing for me. It did not give me the salary I should be making and right now I'm unemployed.
> 
> On my last interview they asked what makes me stand out from other the candidates and I told them the usual BS lines employers like to hear and I threw in that I have an MBA.
> Well the guy interviewing paused for a minute and said, "so what if you have an MBA, 70% of the people on our team have one."
> ...


Wow, that sucks!

But, I would not say your MBA is worthless. 70% of the staff at that place having an MBA indicates it is the minimum to be considered. You need additional skills or experience at another place and move around as your value goes up. At least you were in the game; with a BA/BS you would not stand a chance.

My experience backs that up. I got my BS in business a while ago, then got in with a very good company in a specialized industry (the experience did not transfer well). When I got laid off, I had only three interviews (and no offers) in several months. I knuckled down and got my MBA, and things changed. I settled for an ok job at a demanding company. But I will prove my value there, and having the MBA was a big part of why I was considered (that came straight from the hiring manager).

Caveat: the quality of - and your success in - the program matters much. I attended my local public school. It's not top-tier but it is well-regarded and AACSB-accredited. I graduated near the top of my class. If you go to a lightly regarded school or don't do well (a 3.0 GPA is the minimum at my school, so the term is relative) you may find the value of your degree varies.


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