# Is this normal



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Is your wife from a very conservative household? One where there might have been a whole lot of sexual repression and shame surrounding sex? 

I ask because it almost sounds like she feels a need to frame sex in such a way that she "has" to have it so as to make up for angering you, so that she isn't really responsible for having sex. Like sex itself isn't something that she would ordinarily do, because she's a good girl and good girls don't want to have sex, but if it's a "punishment" and you're "making her" have sex, then it's not her fault and she's still a good girl. She has to make you mad first, though, so you'll play along and give her the cover she needs for this little self-deluded scenario. 

Or, she might just be a sub who lacks either the maturity, experience, or honesty to tell you what she really wants, so she sets up these little games in order to get you to play the "top" and be dominant in the ways she likes. 

Either way, there seems to be a whole lot of mind games in your sexual relationship. I'm not sure that sounds all that healthy. If both of you were honest and transparent with one another, and were both enjoying what was happening without feeling like anything was missing, then fine. But as you're here trying to find out if this is normal, I'm guessing that's not entirely the case. You two need to figure out how to communicate more effectively about sex.

Has your sex life always followed this script?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Sounds to me like she's at the point where she just wants to take care of you and has less time/inclination for the "enjoyable" part of intimacy (the journey, not the destination).

I think in a few months you'll be hearing "can you hurry up and finish please".


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Are you still dating?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, then, you can't expect her to get into it. Women aren't wired the same. We have to be emotionally caught up in the moment with a person we're crazy about to be having the kind of intimacy you're looking for. And that comes from 'dating' - spending time together as a couple, keeping that emotional bond going. We don't have the biological drive to put it ahead of all the other stuff going on like men do. So it behooves you to figure OUT how to make time. You should, at the very least, have a regular, long-term babysitter you keep on retainer and use at least once a month. 

As for the arguing and the way she talks to you, I'm going to guess that you need to read the book No More Mr Nice Guy, the sooner the better. The stronger you are, the more she'll want to make time (and quit talking to you like a child).


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> She sometimes would seem annoyed with me during sex as well (like telling me, not to breathe too loud or not to do this or that).


The book "Come As You Are" describes female sexuality in a unique way that varies from male sexuality. Because the vagina is mostly internal, it is not as easy for women to directly associate to the things in life that their bodies really respond well to sexually. Meanwhile because the penis is external, men can't help but to be very aware of anything that gets us aroused. So then this leaves each gender with the following map of their own sexuality:

Men = Very easy to read map with "X" marks the spot! 

Women = ??? Can I borrow my husband's map a moment for reference? 

So in my opinion it is more likely when you ask a woman exactly "what do you like" that she will answer "doing the things that please my husband." Why? Because those things are most often simple, easy to understand, and tend to be very reliable even when a husband claims to want something different. Meanwhile her own sexuality tends to be much more fluid, ambiguous, and less reliable. 

So as a husband if you sometimes feel your wife's sexuality leaves you scratching your head, I think that is completely normal. The best theory is that you two actually ARE very emotionally connected during sex in the sense that you are experiencing her sexuality exactly as she experiences her own sexuality. It can simply be an experience of pleasure combined with a dash of frustrating ambiguity. 

Now if you need her to slow down and be more connected to you, I have some ideas, but need to run... I'll reply more later.

Badsanta


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> "The book "Come As You Are" describes female sexuality in a unique way that varies from male sexuality."
> 
> I will try and order the book. It all sounds interesting but also mysterious and I am not sure I understand exactly. But then i also am not sure I understand my wife's sexuality either.


If I were to sum that book up in only a few words, it tries to convey the following message to women: _You are completely normal just the way you are. You should love yourself and be confident._ - Thus the title, "Come As You Are"

My wife refused to read it because she does NOT want to have another female try and explain what sex should be all about to her! In my opinion it seemed like about half the book had really good explanations about stress and how to deal with that in general that was really helpful. Those topics were explained in ways that could be read completely independently from the topic of sex, but the book weighed heavily on it because stress often inhibits sexual desire. 

Before diving into books about female sexuality, you may enjoy reading more about various forms of sexual therapy and what each type of therapy tries to accomplish. Let me see if I can find you some good links...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Before diving into books about female sexuality, you may enjoy reading more about various forms of sexual therapy and what each type of therapy tries to accomplish. Let me see if I can find you some good links...


..oh wait, those are all my links! Here is one I made just for you @inmyprime

*Badsanta's Sex Therapy Ideas #6587.5_part_d_revised Woman! Check out My Goldfish!*

TRUST ME ON THIS ONE! Go buy you a pair of shoes that have live or fake goldfish in the heels like these:










Next time you are about to have sex with your wife, suddenly wear these while you strut your stuff around in the bedroom for a few moments before she is even allowed to touch you.
_
But Badsanta, why will this help my sex life?_ Because whatever stressful shît your woman has got going on in her head that prevents her from being able to get in the mood will be blown the fück out of her mind when she sees you in these! Suddenly you will have her undivided attention, and a smile on her face, which is 99% of the problem most women struggle to overcome when having sex for over the millionth time in a marriage. Hopefully you can playfully handle the other 1% of her problems like finding a cheeto stuck in her bra!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

inmyprime said:


> "We have to be emotionally caught up in the moment with a person we're crazy about to be having the kind of intimacy you're looking for. And that comes from 'dating' - spending time together as a couple, keeping that emotional bond going."
> 
> I get it but for it to work, I don't really know whether she is crazy enough about me in the first place and I don't know whether she knows that she is not as crazy about me as she could be about someone else (more sexually compatible). I feel this because of how our sex life in the past used to play out. That it seemed a bit of an effort rather than just go with the moment kind of thing. When we had lots of time to travel together and go out a lot (before kids), we would often argue but then have great make up sex so this is how I later realised that it was all part of a prolonged emotional foreplay (occasionally we would have real fights but it's never anything of any significance. Usually one of us says something in an annoyed tone before thinking etc). She is also not one who will show many emotions (unless she is annoyed about something) or act especially passionately (I don't expect her to).
> 
> I was the first to suggest a babysitter (our parents don't live in the same countries unfortunately). Her philosophy is that there is no point in having kids if you don't have the time or ability to take care of them, all the time. I also support it but you are right, it would be nice to have a backup plan. We have a cleaner & gardener etc but not a babysitter.


Like I said, you are not leading your family. A strong man would reply "You're my wife and I want to spend time with you, I'm arranging for a sitter. Be ready at 8." Maybe not those words, but she is waiting for you to lead. Read No More Mr Nice Guy before you read anything else. This isn't her issue. It's yours.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm a little confused about how you can talk about her methods being "unnatural" and in the same breath mention what you see in porn.

So porn is natural?

Are you sure your expectations are reasonable?

How much porn are you watching and how much of it are you trying to bring into the bedroom?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

So, she wants to be in control and has enjoyed ceding control? Have either of you researched kink and learned anything about Doms, subs, and switches?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> So, she wants to be in control and has enjoyed ceding control? Have either of you researched kink and learned anything about Doms, subs, and switches?


No, actually. But if it involves latex and instruments that may cause obstruction to kidneys, it is perhaps too advanced?  I will read up on it. I know she sometimes likes role play and for me to pretend to be a stranger (I definitely didn't teach her that!).

Btw what is going on with the TAM website: I have to refresh a page many times until I can read it: it loads at first but then some ads seem to do something to it and the page turns white and stays that way. Is there something I can switch on/off in my browser (chrome) to stop this from happening?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> "I'm a little confused about how you can talk about her methods being "unnatural" and in the same breath mention what you see in porn."
> 
> I am not sure I was clear: it turns out some of _her_ "methods" apparently turned out to be _my_ methods coming back to haunt me from the distant past. Although, ironically, she ended up enjoying it more, the majority of the time while, I ended up longing for intimacy/closeness.
> 
> ...



We'll I can't speak to things like 50 shades because I don't read them.....never had any interest.

I tried to watch the movie but had to quit after 10 minutes because it was so horrible.

So the generalization of "women" doesn't always hold. 

As for my questions I was trying to get an idea of whether you're being unreasonably influenced by porn.....many men are. I'm sure women watch too but porn is generally made for mens pleasure, not womens.

Nothing wrong with wanting intimacy with your wife. Just saying that a lot of porn can interfere because it can get in the way of actual intimacy because it's not about intimacy.

I'm always a bit suspicious when I hear about how one wants what they saw in porn. 

By all means ask your wife to try stuff, just saying that ideas you get from porn may not work out well in reality. The women in porn don't like a lot of it.....they're just drugged out and paid to pretend they do.


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## 71Climber (Dec 15, 2016)

What I am discovering in my own struggles, in my own issues, as you and I have dialogued a bit about on another thread, is, quite honestly, and you may or may not agree, is that our inmost desire is to connect. You should look up a great TedTalk by Brene Brown called "The Power of Vulnerability". Believe it or not, porn gets in the way of this. It places intensity in the place of intimacy. Intensity only lasts for a little while, but it cannot do what it is not designed to do. Intimacy is created on a much deeper level, when two individuals are able to experience yada..to be able to be naked and vulnerable together and be fully present and connected. It's almost supernatural. Im my own struggle, I did not understand this for a very very very long time. My wife and I have not been intimate for over 2 years, and I am a very healthy, active, energetic, vibrant guy with a good sexual appetite. In our separation, we have learned that our relationship, littered with my own narcissistic obsession with fantasy, largely enhanced by porn among other things, steals any opportunity to connect--as hard as you may try, it's difficult to connect with your wife if the focus is physical release. If my own marriage is to survive, after all we've been through, then it is only through completely tearing it down, and rebuilding real, vulnerable, connected intimacy with each other, completely devoid of porn, or its derivatives. What I believe, from reading your posts, is that you've created a monster in the bedroom, and now, you're never going to be able to experience what you were created to enjoy together unless you look at yourselves and come to the realization that you're eating potato chips when you could be experiencing a feast.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## 71Climber (Dec 15, 2016)

I certainly wish you and your wife the best. It truly is about knowing and being known, which I am hoping to experience again. I have experienced glimpses of it, when I've been in a better place, and when my wife and I have been able to connect deeply. Fundamentally for me to attain that again, I must spend the next several months dedicated to real and lasting change in my own life. I have drawn the line in the sand-I am committed to living life in a real, connected, sober, and faithful way. Seeking "true north" if you will. It is a journey. If I am to be fit to connect with my wife in a different way, I have to be different myself. Porn is only one way in which I have broken her trust, and that porn has led me astray from being able to connect with her in a meaningful way. There are other issues, progressions to chatting, etc, which also have their affects, and this has been a long process. I only hope, after a period of time, that we can relate to one another in a totally different way, as healthy persons, and that it will be enough.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> After her oral orgasm, she then was keen for me to come all over her face but I insisted that I wanted to make her come from PIV (which she did) and then finished on her and she almost blacked out from breathing heavily and screaming (and also scratched me while orgasming, I think).
> 
> It was all great (she assured me) but *what is this thing when people write about this "deeper level, supernatural experience, when the earth moves and the two unite to become one" etc?* While I am busy with oral, I am trying to make sure I focus on technique and build it up properly and then during intercourse: that the rhythm and build up is steady as well...I don't really have time to get into this whole "unity" thing. How does this happen?
> 
> ...


I will make a guess as to what is going on here.

@badsanta has another thread about too much emotional closeness when nearing orgasm and needing to pull away. For some people, too much close intimacy kind of freaks them out and distracts them and then they can't really get off. So they need to do something to put a little space between themselves and the other person in the bed. 

I think this goes much further for some people, all the way up to having to put a completely false persona on and have the other person put on one too (or fantasize about a completely other person) in order to have sex (or to be able to get off). I have had a couple of lovers who clearly could not just touch for the sake of touching, or kiss for the sake of kissing, or look into each other's eyes. They *could* however, achieve a lot of kinky steam for themselves and some partners (not me, however). After a wonderful bout of kinky sex, they did feel an emotional intimacy, but they still remained mostly aloof. These lovers also were not generally affectionate. (They also did not last with me long at all).

I think this is just an intimacy style for some people. Most of these type probably also don't have physical touch high on their love languages list. I think when two people who are similar in this way get together, they can have a ton of steamy hot sex and their own type of emotional intimacy. They may also see stars align and all of that, though I have no idea (perhaps some people who do not experience emotional la-la type intimacy during or from sex could chime in). It just may not look like the type of intimacy you are describing...the la-la type.

For me, for sex to be really really good, it always has to be the la-la type. It is something I can feel is possible with someone else or not, usually by the time I'm kissing them. Before then, I would have talked to them a bit about their sex life and sexual style, kinks, past, etc. I also would have touched them or they would have touched me, somehow innocently by the time I've kissed them. All of this then plus how they kiss and how they touch me while they kiss will tell me (mostly accurately) if they are the same type of passionate, connected lover that I am or not. (Though I have been fooled by a couple of guys who talked one way, made out great the first time, lots of passion, etc, then only to find out they do not have anything to bring to the game past the first make out session other than an erection.)

What I am hearing in your description of your wife may be one of these types. If that is the case, she just may never desire that type of la-la sex you are talking about, and that would be a bummer. But you would have to either accept or consider divorce, right? I mean, it is whatever it is. 

But there's a little ray of hope I see in that she is wanting to get kinky with you. This is, for some people, a way into their emotional center. There is something behind her desire to play kinky that is possibly very beautiful and emotional, that she may share with you if you get to it by playing her game first. She likely is not self-aware and doesn't even know this herself. If I am correct, she is fascinated by some of the ideas she has that are kinky (and she's probably watching some fun porn that is fueling a lot of very kinky ideas) and she wants to share them with you...but she is not bold enough and aware enough yet to really explain what it all means to her. She doesn't (or may not) know what it means, but it is something that is stirring lust and desire in her and that feels good to her. Or maybe she does know and she is or isn't willing to even share what is behind it, but...

If you play along and consider it a way of learning more about the deepest parts of your wife's sexual life, you may be able to get so much closer to her than you have ever imagined.

Here is an example of what I mean...I am not that into bondage or strongholds, etc, but sometimes if my lover is holding his hand over my throat, just laying it over my throat not squeezing or putting any real pressure on it, but a tiny bit of pressure just so I know how strong his hands really are, and then he starts talking dirty to me about what all goes on in my naughty mind....he can bring forth in me ideas and fantasies and words that I didn't know were inside of me until he was bringing them out. In that moment I'll feel so vulnerable (physically and emotionally and sexually) that I could almost pass out from it. And he may not be even touching me anywhere but my neck, meaning, it isn't just during a sexually stimulating act that this would work on me.

Now, a new lover wouldn't have this affect on me. It takes time to work through some levels of kink and get more and more comfortable with it, for both of you. If I am right on this, you and she would have to develop a whole kink life (doesn't have to be that complicated or involve whips and chains) where you discover together, slowly, what is truly driving your wife's lust and how you can maximize giving it to her. When you do this, the slow journey together builds emotional intimacy like nothing else (if you are both capable of it).

I said above, for me, sex has to be the la-la type. But for me it also has to be kinky, at least a little bit. Just because it is fun and I like it. I like other things that would be considered more freaky, too. But none of these things conflict or dampen the la-la stars aligning emotional intimacy we have all at the same time.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> It was all great (she assured me) but what is this thing when people write about this "deeper level, supernatural experience, when the earth moves and the two unite to become one" etc? *While I am busy with oral, I am trying to make sure I focus on technique and build it up properly and then during intercourse: that the rhythm and build up is steady as well...I don't really have time to get into this whole "unity" thing. How does this happen?*


I meant to comment on this part, too...Your statement here, to me, shows you will need some practice at closer intimacy also.

I do hear and respect your point about how the physical act of sex is more strenuous (typically) on the man and he has to use a certain amount of mental energy to control so many things going on in his body, including his erection, that he can be temporarily unable to open up to the close connection at the same time. But if you are only and always focused on technique and not on her, herself, and what she means to you and her beauty and your love for her, etc etc etc, then you are also a bit blocked in the emotional intimacy department.

So in between periods of strenuous physical sex work or times when concentration is required like giving oral, you should/could be able to take a deeper look into her, into who she is in this sexual moment, and explore your feelings for her, whether wicked or saintly or whatever (but stick in the sexual feelings realm). When this works well, the other partner would see you looking into her, and then would either reveal a bit of herself or maybe retreat a little bit...but that can be fun too, because you can tease each other into more and more. All the while, taking breaks to get back into action for a bit, or get a little kinkier or sexual. Keep the fire burning with your bodies and technique, but develop the closeness in the breaks in between using your hearts and minds and voices. Do you talk to each other during sex?

One of my favorite feelings from great sex, is being just pounded hard into the bed for as long as he can do it (I can't expect this for very long, it is like asking him to do jump squats for 10 minutes, so I'm happy to get it as long as I can, any amount is great!) During this, my eyes roll back in my head and it is like being on a sexual roller coaster. For him, it takes about 90% of his strength and concentration to do this right without harming either of us. He has to take total responsibility for all of that part and his emotional connection is blurred during this time. But that 10% he has available, he will be watching me and the look on my face and the sounds I am making. And knowing how much pleasure he is giving me and how much I love it. When he has to slow down or stop, he comes back closer to me with words and tells me his feelings about how amazing it was seeing me in heaven like that knowing he was the source of it. Then I tell him how amazing it was and goo-goo lovey stuff while I throw my arms around his neck and take over doing the work for awhile.

That's just sort of a description of how you work the intimacy and bonding in with the heavy lifting.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I read a lot about romantic/sensual sex (and also see it being portrayed in movies etc, not porn) but our sex life has never been like this.
> It also varied over the last 20 years.
> 
> There would always be some kind of mind game involved. So this is a typical scenario:
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I am having trouble working out from the above whether it's a technique-specific, or a person-specific thing.


*Badsanta's Sex Therapy Suggestions #101 OMG This Will Fail!*

Try doing something you know will be horrible, but super fun at the same time!

Challenge you partner to a masturbation context with a handful of uncooked grits. Whoever climaxes first wins










Odds are this will bring the two of you super close emotionally and it will be an experience you will never forget! Was it about technique? NO. Was it about willing to try something awkward with a person you love? Yes!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> 1. Well, I'd like to see if it is at all possible improve the experience for her, hoping that it doesn't need to be that black & white. But before I can do this, I need to try and understand a few things a little better.
> 
> 2. I am having trouble working out from the above whether it's a technique-specific, or a person-specific thing. So if you already feel what can be possible with the person while you are kissing them, before the sex, doesn't it mean that it's more to do with *you*, and whatever you build up about that person in *your* head and how attracted you are to them? But then you talk about importance of technique later on so I am not sure. Or is it a combination of factors? Have you ever felt huge attraction to someone but then were disappointed after his "performance"? Or the other way around? What happened then? Lets assume good technique is a given; the whole la-la sex experience as you describe it feels like it is something you create for yourself, in your own head. Is it possible?
> 
> ...


Ok I numbered the points I'd like to respond to...

1. What I was saying in the quoted post though is that some people, regardless of their level of love or passion for another person, cannot/won't/don't want to be as intimate and ooey-gooey as you are describing. Like at all, ever. Like, it is not in them. So it isn't really about whether you provide anything to them, they are not capable of that type of intimacy (but capable isn't really the right word, because there is no "right" way to experience intimacy...some simply do not ever and will not ever be ooey-gooey). So if your wife is like this, in that she will not ever experience what you are trying to inquire about, then there is really nothing you can do to change that. Hence my saying, you'd just have to accept her as she is in this case. Like a person who just does not like to be affectionate, they may move a little tiny bit toward more affection if you press it, but it will never be natural and they will stop doing it again once you have stopped asking. This is just how some people are.

2. In talking about how it is when testing out new potential lovers, I was trying to say that some of them are like what I'm saying in #1 above, and therefore, no, it doesn't really matter what space *I* am in. I cannot achieve that type of intimacy if it is one sided. I cannot achieve it with someone who is not capable of it at all or maybe just not with me, either way, no, I cannot do it alone. I may be in that space going into it, but once I realize they are not in it too, I'm out of that space in an instant. And whenever it becomes obvious that there is no going there ever with a person, I am no longer interested in them.

3. If you never have anything that is more tender when having sex or touching and she doesn't like or allow mushy words ever, then I'm going to guess she may be one of these people I'm describing. Because for me, it is both the kinky and the mushy, always. I could never have one without the other, they are a balance to me. I like to lay in bed for hours just touching and making out, watching TV or just listening to music. Touching each other's faces, hair, bodies...with none of the kink powering it, just our mutual desire to touch and kiss and adore each other. If you two have never ever done this, I'm not sure it is possible, it seems like some amount of it would have occurred naturally. But to be honest I'm not really sure if you are capable of it either, or if you are just kind of asking about it because you hear other people talking about it. If you don't feel like you are missing anything in the not having that stuff, then I don't see a reason to reach for it. Not everyone wants that. 

You have said you would like to give more sensual and loving words more often, rather than just the naughty stuff, and that she seems to be repelled by it. Do you think you want to say those words because you want to see if you can warm her up to them and create a new sexual space? Like, you are wondering if you can get HER to a new space that she would enjoy. Or because you feel a need to have that type of intimacy for yourself?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Your long talk put her on alert. She does not want you to stray. She does love you and wants you to be happy in the marriage. Count your blessings.

Reward her for her effort in other non-sexual ways.

Keep telling her that you love her.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I'll wait to respond more after you respond again @inmyprime but everything you are saying is, of course, part of your overall dynamic with your wife and also relevant to your individual sex lives. So keep sharing what you feel inspired to share, because it all helps you sort through the stuff.

Intimacy isn't easy, it is in fact terrifying to many people. How they got there, to where intimacy is terrifying, is always an individual thing. So sorting through the how you got here stuff is relevant for now.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

The fact that she as into mushy gushy when she was 16 does not mean that she is still capable or willing to "go there" as a grown woman. She may think / feel it is immature and wrong to go there as an adult. It may feel icky to her, like the concept of sex with children. My wife is mushy gushy with pets and small children. Not with me. Never assume you know what another person is capable of, even if you see them display that behavior with others. Does not mean it is available to them when they are interacting with you.

Very dangerous words in a relationship: I KNOW you could be more _____ if you wanted to.

When someone shows you who they are by consistent behavior over time, stop insisting that deep down they are someone else. They aren't. You want them to be. Desperately. But they aren't.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> 1. You must be exceptionally good at reading people then, if you can be sure when they are in exactly the same space as you are and when not. I mean feelings are probably the most subjective things that exist, by definition. I always thought that my experience of reality is generally only MY experience. If someone _does_ seem like part of that same space as me, it's because they might be saying or doing certain things, for it to seem that way, but it is actually ME who is putting them there. (I hope that makes sense? Maybe it's too wooly).
> 
> 
> 2. Do you have a husband/family or do you normally select your males for the purpose of them becoming lovers, if you don’t mind me asking? (When you used the term “testing potential lovers”, I had to think about the movie Once Upon a Time in America; the scene where all the men stood in a row, with their [email protected] out and the lady tested one by one carefully…)
> ...


1. Well, I'm basing what I know on verbal and body language. For the type of lover I need, I will know we are in a similar space because they are saying actual words that match their body language and its actions, such as how close they feel to me, how much they enjoy this or that about me, while they stroke my hair, or whatever. I'm not trying to read their mind, we are actually communicating these things to each other.

An example of how it went with the type of lover who would not work well with me because they do not do enough warm fuzzy stuff would be...they do not make a lot of eye contact during sex, kissing, etc, they do not talk at all or very little, they seem to close up into themselves emotionally (and the communication goes away when this happens). When I try to be like "hey, me here, can we try to stay connected during this?" either out loud or with body language, they may pop back into connection with me for a moment but then it will be gone again shortly. This particular lover I'm describing also rarely touched me outside the bedroom, even though I had asked him to. I realized immediately that he was just plain not affectionate (with me, anyway), so I asked him to at least just rest his hand on my knee sometimes when we were out or in the car. He would not remember so sometimes I would take his hand and put it on my knee. Within moments, he would have an excuse to take his hand back (suddenly having to bite his nail or "need" both hands on the steering wheel). After a few times of that I gave up, and summed up the whole picture of him as simply not a good lover for me on any level. He also did not want after glow affection, though he did not bolt out of bed, he was relaxed and would hang out in bed...he did have a glow on his face because of the sex, but he did not get any closer, more intimate, more affectionate, or more connected.

I am sure this guy felt the same, and didn't want to be "looked into" or "have to emotionally connect" during sex, or "have to" be affectionate with me. Even though he expressly had said prior to meeting that he wanted all of these things (and had experienced them before), and I genuinely think he DOES want all of these things and thinks he has experienced them all. But what we were describing were very different things. When I described connection, he thought only in terms of sharing the type of touch that leads to an orgasm. When I described affection, he thought I meant a fond feeling he had for me, not non-sexual touching. So while we used the same words, it wasn't until we met and started feeling each other out sexually that I realized we were not using the same meanings. It wasn't like he had misled me, that feeling is different and is obvious. No, he really thinks he is a very intimate, affectionate, and emotionally deep person.

And yes, his experience bears all of that out, so it is all true. It is simply that when we were together, there really was never a connection even if he thought there was one. Whereas, I have had many true connections, where both people agree about (generally) how it felt and what wavelength they were on. You really can't be connected on only one side, unless you are deluding yourself or being duped by someone who deliberately wants you to think they are connected but aren't.

2. I have been married twice. My 2nd divorce was very hard on me because my ex-h and I were very in love and did not want to give up trying, but eventually we had to. He and I had an amazing, connected, intimate, "in love", romantic, kinky, freaky, experimental sex life. He was also (generally speaking) a wonderful man, husband, and step-father to my kids. So as for mushy + sexy + good husband + hot lover + all in one.....yes of course there are men like this. There are women like this too, I'm one of them.

We've been divorced for a year now and I have been dating again. I dated quite a bit, and then was in a fun 6 month relationship (that just ended). I was able to sample a lot of men via dating in the last year, most of whom I did not even have sex with. I tested them out by making out with them, if they even got that far. Making out with someone new tells you a whole lot about them and especially, your chemistry together. I haven't slept with all that many people (relatively speaking), but I've made out with (at least) dozens of people in my life. In every circumstance of people I made out with first and ended up having sex with, I could tell by making out with them how it was going to be to have sex with them EXCEPT twice. Two guys who made out great the first time and then never again. Everyone else followed exactly how I thought they would be when going further down the bases with them.

3. I can tell you "that stuff" is sooooo real for me. But I am a highly sexual person, and I have had time and experience to gain a lot of self-awareness, and also to experiment with my feelings, emotions, responses, and desires. I have also been blessed with 3 lovers in my life who I had truly great sex with for long periods of time. The experiences with those lovers expanded my understanding of my own sexuality and potentials. I am also a very affectionate person, in general and sexually, and my 3 great lovers were as well.

So I'm just sharing stuff to see if any of it is relevant to what you are asking, or at least to give you some sense of what someone who has felt "that stuff" thinks and says about it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I just have one question and hope it is not too personal: why on earth did you separate from your second husband??


It was the most difficult thing both of us ever had to do. The "reason" is something I can't really boil down into just a "reason". But the gist of it is that we were not good at most of the things normal married people can be good at, like sharing household duties, finances, decisions, etc. We were so bad at this together that it made it so that we could not live together, and that's when we separated. For about a year, we still tried to continue being married, just living apart. After some time of trying that and seeing that parts of it still just didn't work for us, we realized it would be best for us both to divorce...even though it was heartbreaking.

However now, I know for sure it was the best choice, even though the most difficult. Our deep love for each other meant that we truly wanted what was best for each other, even if that meant someone else.

We are great friends now and still see each other a lot. I have been dating but he hasn't. He is doing well though, just working on himself and traveling.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Aaaah, but I would have thought that part of being good at household/finance/decisions etc falls under 'being a good husband' category.
> 
> You see my problem is that something always comes at the expense of something else. So people who are able to loose themselves in dream/ecstasy/sex-land so easily (and woo their partner with them) might also not the best at functioning in the 'real' world.
> That doesn't mean one shouldn't try and improve in the relevant areas.
> ...


Please don't project what you were already thinking on what I said, however. My ex-h and I are both fine at functioning in the real world, and the problems we had were purely him + me, and wouldn't necessarily apply to him or me + someone else. He and I both had success in those other realms in other relationships. And I can't write a whole book on it in my response to you, so I just quickly recapped the gist of the problem.

In other words, even though we were and are easily able to lose ourselves in dream/fantasy/sex-land, this does not affect our normal, usual, everyday, regular neighbor next door type of lives. And even though we ended up not being able to handle doing those things together well, it doesn't mean we didn't do them or that there was something defective about our ability to do them. We both have professional careers, friends, hobbies, and other normal people things.

In the relationship I just ended, he and I had all of those usual things down easily, and we also had the great sex and intimacy and ooey-gooey stuff, plus the kinky stuff. He is a family man and great father and would be a great husband to someone, but is also a wonderful awesome amazing sexual partner. Why do you think there should not be time for both? I sadly had to end this one because there was one area where we were incompatible sexually that I knew I would not be able to handle in the long run, and it is one area that I will never be willing to compromise on. I knew that I should end this sooner than later because I can see the writing on the wall...even though we were falling in love and in most other areas were a really great match.

But again...this man was highly capable of rocking my world, making me swoon, making me feel beautiful and loved, and also making me confident that if I asked him to spend a kinky weekend away with me and my special sex suitcase he would give me the time of my life.

There's no contradiction here. I have known many others (non-intimately) who have a crazy good sex life and also a normal everyday life.

Books by David Scharch attempt to work on the passion, intimacy and desire topics...but they are very difficult to read and absorb, IMO. 

I know I had to learn by learning and understanding myself first, and then had to have experience with lovers who were adept at intimacy.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> 1. Although you seem to agree with the theory (when you say that his ability of running a household may work much better in conjunction with someone else?). It's just that I also apply this logic to sex/passion. One person's passion may be exaggerated with a certain partner, as opposed to someone else and vice versa. It takes two, to make a whole! I think our conversation started with your assumption that some people (like my wife for example) are probably unable to go beyond a certain degree of passion, no matter who they are with.
> I am open minded about it. My observations make me inclined to think that this may not be the case but I don't know for sure.
> 
> 2. I don't not think it is impossible to have time for both: just that it is very rare and probably never perfectly balanced, i.e. one aspect in the relationship will dominate over the other, sometimes dramatically so. (I also think 6 months is perhaps too short a time to tell because it takes 6 months for the "in love" hormones to wear off, to see what's really underneath a person.)


1. Oh ok, I get you now. Absolutely some can have deep passion with one person and not another. 

But intimacy styles are still going to usually hold true for individuals, if it is really a style versus just new in love chemicals or taboo driven stuff. So the guy I was describing who was not a good lover for me, would and will have great passion with other women. However, those women will be more like himself, not expect or invite much physical affection, not want to be connected during sex (just stick to dirty stuff, hedonism, and pleasure, meanwhile mostly blocking each other out). He was sort of an extreme example in that sense, and there is lots of room in between. Both my ex-h and my now ex-boyfriend could not be with a woman who wasn't as sexual as they are, like I am as well. I talked to both of them at length about our compatibilties. It was always one of our favorite topics (how awesome our sex life was and how well we matched, plans we had for future fun sex, how hot we were for each other, how we couldn't handle a sex life that didn't have it all, like ours).

So I'm totally in agreement with you...but it still stands that for some people, raunchy, nasty and disconnected sex is all they want and they WILL feel a deep sense of fulfillment from this. There is no right or wrong or better or worse. Our individual styles are what they are, though they do shift dramatically for some people as they become self-aware. But once you kind of get your own groove, it tends to stay in that type of pattern.

For myself, there have been many "very close" types of intimacy styles. Some have even been too ooey-gooey for me, but were close. Some have certainly been too aloof, disconnected, or self serving, or just a total lack of chemistry. Some have been a good match in intimacy style but the technique or skill turned me (or them) off. It isn't always me who isn't into it. Some lovers have been blah about me in various ways.

2. 6 months is long enough to know about the one thing we were incompatible on that I can't compromise on. You'll have to trust me on that one. Has nothing to do with the chemicals. The chemicals were trying to make me accept something that I know I can never accept. Reality and experience told me not to listen to the chemicals.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> I read a lot about romantic/sensual sex
> 
> *
> I have a theory that she doesn't find me particularly attractive* and needs all these extras to get herself into the mood. But how can i find out if this is the case? She will never say and I have tried talking about it many times. She just gets upset if I push her on this. She says she enjoys doing things to me that turn me on. Or maybe I am making a big deal out of nothing.
> !



i am going to say NO! 
But what you are doing is NOT making her horny, so she is trying to up the sex-act temperature.
Why ARE you only thinking in vanilla terms of sex with her? Vanilla is not going to turn her on anymore. face that fact. She is telling you that in a clear way.

She obviously wants to try new things, wants to spice it up. How about next time she picks a fight, you take her over your lap and spank her. then tie her up on the bed (with some rope you stratgically left under the bed) and sexually overwhemlm her bound body. give her some bed rocking slamming into her PIV sex. Afterward see if she is looking at you in a new way....

If you can not figure it out, watch that "50 shades of gray" movie for ideas.

THis is actually more serious than you might think. If the sex you are giving her is boring, she might go looking for a more forceful man to satisfy her kinky urges.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Actually my goal was never to _change_ her but for her to be as closest to her "true" self as she can be, with _me_, to feel comfortable, happy and loved etc.


This works great if her "true" self is someone compatible with you. If she fears it is not, she will hide it. If you encourage her to share that person with you, she will resist. You might be willing to stay together even if she proves to be, deep down, someone who is not compatible with you. That does not necessarily mean that she, if the incompatibility were brought into the open, is willing to stay with you. So if she wants to stay with you, she may feel obliged to hide her true self.

My wife is constantly telling me that she wants me to share the "real me" with her. Never going to happen. She might be willing to stay with the "real me". But I would not be willing to stay with her if she knew who the real me is.

Not everyone want or enjoys when their spouse gets to know the "real me" better. Not everyone is comfortable with themselves. Not everyone is willing to invest in the process of becoming more comfortable with who we are on the inside. Some of us do not want to share that ugliness with our spouse. We want our spouse to leave us alone and stop pestering us to look inside ourselves. You have to decide whether you want to be married to someone who would prefer to remain uncomfortable with parts of herself, rather than allowing you to help her find her "true" self. You may be sufficiently devoted to her that you are willing to love her and live with her no matter who her "true self" is. She might not be willing to live with anyone willing to accept her true self as a life partner.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> This works great if her "true" self is someone compatible with you. If she fears it is not, she will hide it. If you encourage her to share that person with you, she will resist. You might be willing to stay together even if she proves to be, deep down, someone who is not compatible with you. That does not necessarily mean that she, if the incompatibility were brought into the open, is willing to stay with you. So if she wants to stay with you, she may feel obliged to hide her true self.
> 
> My wife is constantly telling me that she wants me to share the "real me" with her. Never going to happen. She might be willing to stay with the "real me". But I would not be willing to stay with her if she knew who the real me is.
> 
> Not everyone want or enjoys when their spouse gets to know the "real me" better. Not everyone is comfortable with themselves. Not everyone is willing to invest in the process of becoming more comfortable with who we are on the inside. Some of us do not want to share that ugliness with our spouse. We want our spouse to leave us alone and stop pestering us to look inside ourselves. You have to decide whether you want to be married to someone who would prefer to remain uncomfortable with parts of herself, rather than allowing you to help her find her "true" self. You may be sufficiently devoted to her that you are willing to love her and live with her no matter who her "true self" is. She might not be willing to live with anyone willing to accept her true self as a life partner.


This is interesting and I have never heard it phrased like this before. This assumes you know exactly who the real you, is. At the core, we all have a certain personality of course but there are always traits or sides of us, that come out stronger or weaker, depending on who we are with, no? It doesn't only apply to being with a partner but anyone; your parents, children, friends etc. We are always slightly different and when people talk about "chemistry" with someone, I believe this is what they are referring to. (Some people change more than others as well).
I am curious why you'd want to deliberately hide aspects of yourself from your spouse? is it because you don't like this side yourself and don't want to "burden" her with it or is it because you want to keep something to yourself? 
I can see what you are saying but I think it may have more something to do with the notion that we all need our own space sometimes and not be constantly "connected" as it can become "needy" and suffocating after a while. However I am not sure if one always has to pretend to be someone else with the other person, I am not certain it will ensure a happy partnership in the long term or it might ensure misery for one party (as I was worried might have been the case with my wife in the past when I felt much more disconnected from her).
Also: do we not undergo changes over the course of our lives? Maybe after a while, there's more of a real you with the way you are with your wife, than the other "real" you. I am just not sure how one can be sure.

I don't know 100% who the real me is. But I do know fairly well who I am not or who I don't want or can never be.
Need to go, will write more later.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Hmmmm you have a very interesting read on what I wrote. No, she didn't seem to think it was disgusting; no, she wasn't forced.


I didn't mean to say that she was actually feeling *any* of those things, I was simply curious by the use of the word "proud". Being proud of having done or achieved something, usually implies a challenge. And a challenge is by definition not something that comes naturally or even enjoyable (at first). But I am probably reading too much into it, so forget that I mentioned it!



TheTruthHurts said:


> You have me very concerned with all this talk if technique. Personally, I think focusing on technique is common for guys but misses the mark. If you are connecting with your SO, and your SO is connecting with you, technique goes out the window IMO. Instead you are alternately acting and responding; giving and receiving. There is no technique that works for everyone - but responding to what feels good shows the things that ARE good - at that moment. In the next moment, perhaps something better will come along. A slight shift in position might suddenly provide more pleasure (our organs are all unique).


Ok, so perhaps now you are reading something into my words that isn't there as well. I probably didn't explain it very well: when I wrote that I usually focus on technique, I meant that I listen out for her body and try to feel what it is that she desires or what turns her on, *during* the act, and try to augment it or improve the experience for her. Or if she is not that turned on, abandon whatever it was that I was doing previously and try a different technique, until she "clicks". I would have thought if you "let yourself go", "connect" and "throw technique out of the window", you actually stop listening out what it is that your spouse may be enjoying and end up doing things that YOU are enjoying instead! (And then potentially delude yourself that you might be connected). Do you see what I mean? Maybe we mean different things by "connecting" and "technique" so it's a limitation of language when describing complex issues that can't be described with one sentence (because some words will always stick out).

I should have prefaced that none of the kinky stuff we do in bed is something that she actually came up with! It was "trial & error" on my part. She is a very shy person, in person, and was always careful in bed at first as well. But sometimes she goes completely wild! This is what gives me the whole idea that it is actually possible to unlock hidden depths in people that they themselves may not know exist! And they might like it too so that they "add" those things to their already existing core personality. It is now my wife who enjoys all the "submissive" sex more than me, I feel, *by comparison* (I still enjoy it it's just that she enjoys it A LOT) but I started the whole thing in the first place, because I didn't know any better back then (that wretched porn..). Someone said I created a monster. It may be true but it is a monster with very frequent and very strong orgasms. I don't think she suffers from them!

I just wanted to find out if we are missing something else. Not because I prefer "plain vanilla sex". I really don't. I haven't done it for many years and I am not even sure I would like or be able to do it at all. I just want to understand better how her mind works and her reasons why she likes it so much and how that transformation happened. I just want to make sure it is not because of some other issue, such as "guilting" herself into the whole thing because she otherwise wouldn't find me attractive enough to have plain vanilla sex with me which she might do, with someone else. Or some other issue, like filling some unhappy gap that may exist in our relationship (because I can't be sure she was always happy during our 20 years together). 

Does any of it make sense? Thanks for listening anyway.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Talker67 said:


> i am going to say NO!
> But what you are doing is NOT making her horny, so she is trying to up the sex-act temperature.
> Why ARE you only thinking in vanilla terms of sex with her?


I don't. See my previous post.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

To the good people offering advice on this thread: Please keep in mind how the OP views TAM posters...

from "More Pictures While I'm Sleeping"

Hi, I just wanted to say that I am sorry the way the other thread has gone. I am writing a private message because I don't think there is anything I can write on the public board on this topic without getting *attacked by a horde of trolls* and it doesn't help your situation in any way if you *waste your time reading petty posts*.
I am also writing because it always breaks my heart to see a break-up of a long-lasting marriage, especially if there are children involved. You have to understand that these boards are often dominated by *people who have either been dumped or cheated on or the feminist brigade shows up from time to time who view any male sexual fantasy as a perversion *so I worry you may get a very* one-sided perspective* and make a rash decision that you might regret later.

"


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

@Blondilocks

I would kindly ask you to get off my thread. And I will only ask once.
I clearly referred to the trolls on that particular thread. And I don't want them over here.
Some of the TAM posters are clearly intelligent people, otherwise I would have cancelled my account by now.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> @Blondilocks
> 
> I would kindly ask you to get off my thread. *And I will only ask once*.
> I clearly referred to the trolls on that particular thread. And I don't want them over here.
> Some of the TAM posters are clearly intelligent people, otherwise I would have cancelled my account by now.


LOL. Or what? We have rules on this forum and calling fellow members 'trolls' is a big fat no-no. It seems the only perspective you want to see on this board is your own. Why not start your own board and then you can call all the shots and dispense all the advice and opinions you desire. By all means, cancel your account. ROFL.:rofl::rofl::rofl: But, be forewarned, there is a no-money back policy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

inmyprime said:


> Some of the TAM posters are clearly intelligent people, otherwise I would have cancelled my account by now.


:rofl:

Some, lol? Please do tell us which ones of us are intelligent enough to post on your thread. Cuz, you know, some of us are too stupid to figure that out on our own!

Oops! I see that somebody cancelled your account for you.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Well, at least SOME of the posters are intelligent.

Seems like if you disagree you are considered a troll.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> But to come back to the perfect "all-in-one" partner package theory, where extremely strong connection is equally possible IN bedroom as well as OUTSIDE of bedroom: I am genuinely curious (and please don't take it the wrong way, as any sort of criticism), as you obviously had so many partners, how come you haven't settled with one for good yet? And are you more willing to compromise on things in bedroom or outside of bedroom?


Well I was with one (my ex-h) I thought was going to be forever for 13 years...but it just didn't work out. We were not good marriage partners, though we were great partners in so many other ways. We are now still good friends.

We did have an equally strong connection outside the bedroom as in, as far as passion, romantic love, and just the wonderful little things you do for and with each other when you are in love. The bigger picture of marriage wasn't right for us, but the romance, love and sex were always there and were always great.

Though that doesn't mean both of us were only ever able to have great passion, love and sex with each other. We can have it with other people, too.

My (sort of ex) boyfriend and I have great passion like that, too. And a great connection. It is not that only one person will ever be able to fulfill me. True a great match is not just a given, and is always a wonderful and special thing, but it is not so rare that we can't count on finding it again.

I have only been divorced again for a relatively short time, and I was not actually looking for a new life partner over the past year, I just wanted to date and have a great time and find a sex partner (not a life partner).

So even though my (sort of ex) boyfriend and I had the great sex and passion, I didn't want to move ahead due to the one incompatibility that we have.

I have no worries that when I am ready to find a life partner again, I will be able to do that and it will include all the great passion and sex that I want and need in a relationship.

I was never trying to say that your wife was without passion...I don't really know where her head is at. I was just sharing my experience with you. I hope that you and your wife can find what you both agree is passion.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Ok so you mean that passion is relative or subjective? I would perhaps go along with the idea that it is certainly subjective. Which means that the whole "connection" thing might be an illusion. One can't really create an *objective* 1-10 Scale of Passion I don't think and then find a person that matches that degree on the scale (I know it's not what you said).


Ok I know you know that's not what I said... 

But I wanted to comment on this part anyway....

With the 3 lovers in my life I have experienced great passion with, we discussed it openly and enthusiastically. We discussed things like "I haven't had this level of passion before", " I have had lovers in the past who I had good sex with, but this is way more intense and intimate"...or "the levels of passion we reach together are mind boggling"...or "I love getting so deep into you that I melt away"...etc etc and so on. I mean, truly, we discussed this and wondered together about it...this is 3 separate relationships that spanned a long period of my life, none of them over lapped. One of them is my current (sort of ex) boyfriend who I have been with for 6 months...the other two, one was my second ex-h (together for 13 years), and one was 5 year relationship. So in each of these relationships, we've had time to build and develop our sexual passion, and then discuss and revel in it, during foreplay or even just any time during the day.

Again, I am a very sexual person. Sex is a high priority to me, so in any sexual relationship, I desire and expect open and fun communication about our sexy times. I like to discuss the sex we've had, the sex we're going to have, and the sex we may never have but is fun to talk about. 

So due to my desire for open and fun, sexy communication, these 3 lovers and I would pillow talk our way to discussion just "how passionate" we felt for each other. Including deep, emotional descriptions. Very personal and vulnerable.

I have had other lovers. None of them lasted because they didn't have this kind of passion with me (whether they did with others or not, don't know). When I find one I have this kind of passion with, at this point in my life, I know that it is wonderful and rare enough to cherish it...but it is not so rare that I would follow it into a bad relationship. I'm almost 50, this is not my first rodeo. I know what I want and need in a relationship (including all the other regular, partner-y stuff...but that is not the focus of this post so I won't bother to go there).

I understand that not everyone values sex as highly as I do in their relationship, and many value it as high as I do but are not quite as expressive about it all the time. So I'm not giving advice here or suggesting anything to you or anyone. I'm just sharing in an attempt to explain how I know when I have real passion with someone.

I know that my boyfriend and I would both answer 10 if asked the question, on a scale of 1 to 10, what would you rate the passion between you two, even if asked separately. This is because we've discussed that very thing...as we were naked and tumbling across the bed after crazy great sex. :grin2:


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

OP I don't understand why you are not having these conversations with your wife. It seems to me if you want to be more intimate with her this is the avenue to do it. Try bringing up a little every day. Is she attracted to you (this is usually a range that you can improve by dressing and even attitude)? Does she feel trapped in the marriage (this can be fixed by the way as long as certain boundaries are still in place like no cheating)? What does she want from you to feel sexy, to see you as sexy? What would she like to explore. Bottom line intimacy starts first from scary conversations, but someone has to start them.

Also I would be good for your marriage to talk about her EA, this is not something that is going to go away with time if it is not dealt with, you may be over it but is she?


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

This does not sound like it is leading to a satisfying and fulfilling life together. We had that happen to us around year 10. Went totally off the tracks with infidelity all around. (I talk about it in round about terms now as it is basically the start of our marriage). We made a decision, once we were through all of the counseling and had purged the garbage that surrounded us. First, we learned that kids notwithstanding, jobs, schools, Parents, family, obligations NOTWITHSTANDING, we had our time together. Period. We got parents to babysit, while we went away, even if for a weekend. We made our marriage and our togetherness the center of our world and not jobs school or kids. Sorry. We know of too many couples who when the kids moved away, had nothing more in common. There were a ton of our friends that gave one another the ILYBINILWY speech. There were too many of our friends that were moving on to their second or third marriages. We refused to be statistics. We turned to one another instead of away from one another. There is some fairly decent fallout: Our kids remark that we ruined them for casual relationships. While their friends were moving from one breakup to the next, ours were in good relationships, that if they had to end, ended on reasonable terms.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Unless I missed something, it seemed like OP and his wife were communicating properly, even though they were going in two different directions when it came to their sex life. That's a good thing. It definitely seems salvageable.

Speaking as someone who did the whole 'marry your high school sweetheart' thing, I get it. As you mature, tastes change. Careers and kids and normal day-to-day stresses put things that were high priority on the backburner. It's a couples ability to recognize what is happening, communicate about it, and reach a mutually satisfying outcome that makes all the difference. Not all marriages that start at such a young age can get through this (mine didn't), and it seems as though OP is on the right track.

FWIW, I had LTR experience before I met my ex wife, 3 years with my first gf. Typical teenage relationship, but experience nonetheless. She had no prior experience that lasted longer than a few months. I believe that was a big difference in how each of us dealt with the common issues young relationships almost always face at some point.

I don't know exactly why OP was banned, but I wish him luck. Seems like he's on the right track.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Taxman said:


> We refused to be statistics.


It's funny but this is the phrase I have been mumbling to myself for the most part of my adult life. What is strange is that everyone thinks they are an "above average" driver (for example). That's not, however, how statistics work!

I wonder if I am missing something. My whole life is planned around the fact that I will only ever stay with one person in my life.

ps: sorry, I wasn't quite able to make out from your message whether yours was a success story? It reads like it was (and that you both worked very hard to make it work).

One of my biggest worries about our relationship is this: "We know of too many couples who when the kids moved away, had nothing more in common.", once our kids grow up. Since we did have our share of problems when we were younger. It does seem like we do enjoy and both long for the time together (just two of us) but I wonder if it's only because this alone time currently comes at such a high premium (too many small, screaming kids during regular hours) and whether once we are older, she will slip back into her old unhappy self and start projecting this on me again or making me the cause of her negativity (she is not negative currently, but she used to be somewhat more negative about her life in the past, when her career wasn't working out as well as she was hoping. Having kids filled this "problem" nicely).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's why you make sure you spend time together during the marriage, to keep the bond alive. Dr. Harley says 10 to 15 hours a week is a must.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> I think she is the kind of person where if our marriage were to start falling apart and we started severely disliking each other for whatever reason or developing problems, *I can see how she would probably find a way to try and push ME into an affair instead, rather than commit one herself*, if that makes sense. Though that would never work with me.


This is neither here nor there, but I thought the same of my ex wife, and I believe she actively tried to do that for many years. I always thought I was a little nuts for thinking that, and I'm oddly satisfied that somebody else seems to think this is a 'thing', as well.

My theory was that she alternately didn't want to be the 'bad guy' OR want to hurt me. It was 50% her not wanting to be viewed (by others, mainly) as the cause of any of it (therefore selfishness and self-preservation/maintaining her reputation) and 50% her not actually wanting to cause me pain. But because I didn't bite at any of it, she had little choice.

In the end, she still tried to preserve her reputation, but it was obvious to anybody around how things went down. She had been having an EA for ~2 years (online) with the guy she ultimately left me for. Within a very short time frame after our breakup, she was moving to be with him (in a different country) so I don't think she fooled anybody, though she certainly tried. She mainly wanted to hide these things from her parents, and she probably maintained, and still does, that there was nothing going on until after she left me. But they're not dumb...

The irony is that had she not felt she had to do any of that, she would have saved me years of essentially wasted time...


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @turnera often recommends lots of alone to me with your partner each week. I like that idea but it's impractical in a large family sometimes.


It doesn't have to happen in chunks of time. It just has to be a deliberate attempt to FIND time. You could get up 10 minutes earlier and sit at the kitchen table and enjoy a cup of coffee together and talk a bit. You could put notes in each other's lunch box. You could set up a jigsaw puzzle in the living room and sit down together whenever you have a spare 3 or 4 minutes to work a couple pieces. You could text each other a joke of the day. You could send each other a selfie or two. You could take turns giving each other a 5-minute foot massage. You could write poetry or song lyrics and post it on the fridge. You could give the kids a cartoon to watch and go share a smoothie on the back porch. You could take the kids to a dog park with the dogs and you and your spouse go walk around the park while they're playing. The list goes on. You just have to DATE your spouse.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, it won't help your marriage, but when DH and I married, we decided not to have kids yet. So we were married 10 years before we got pregnant. By then we were ready to devote 100% to our daughter, and she greatly benefited from it. So that's always an option.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

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