# Very interesting comment...



## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

I just read a very interesting comment made by someone at the very end of their post. I almost glossed over it, but did a second-take on it. I'm sorry, I can't remember who the author was to give him/her the credit. 

The comment was something about being more committed to your MARRIAGE than you are to your SPOUSE when working through issues. 

It's a very interesting perspective with a lot of implications. So...I'm struggling with some issues in our marriage that my H wants to bury his head in the sand about. I'm almost to the point of being the dreaded Walkaway Wife. But, out of a sense of pure obligation, I feel like I should make one last stand to try to save the marriage. I honestly don't really want to. I'm tired. But I will go ahead with my plan, which is to basically do an intervention with him and force him to open his eyes to our problems. 

So, is what I'm doing really showing commitment to my H, or a commitment to the marriage? Which way is right? If I'm committed to my H more than my marriage, which is perhaps what I've done for many years, is this how I've managed to allow my needs to go unmet for so long? Is commitment to your spouse more than to the marriage itself a recipe for becoming a doormat? 

I don't know if any of this makes sense, but hoping someone will get what I'm trying to say.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I don't believe there is any such thing as "marriage", in the autonomous sense.

You + Spouse = Marriage

It's that simple. The "marriage" is only as strong as you both are individually. 

So in order for a marriage to be at it's strongest, and healthiest, both people need to set about meeting their spouses needs, as well as their own. If both are working to do that, than each person is getting double the care.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

Waking up to life said:


> I just read a very interesting comment made by someone at the very end of their post. I almost glossed over it, but did a second-take on it. I'm sorry, I can't remember who the author was to give him/her the credit.
> 
> The comment was something about being more committed to your MARRIAGE than you are to your SPOUSE when working through issues.
> 
> ...


Do you know exactly what your needs are? Are you truly meeting your husband's needs? You need to be committed to your self and your H. With out one there is no marriage. Some needs we have can not be met by anyone other then our selves. Are you meeting your needs?? 

I think that you should express your concerns with him and not "Force" it on him. I think that approach is going to float as well as cement blocks. Your approach is as important as your purpose.
Good luck and best wishes


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> I just read a very interesting comment made by someone at the very end of their post. I almost glossed over it, but did a second-take on it. I'm sorry, I can't remember who the author was to give him/her the credit.
> 
> The comment was something about being more committed to your MARRIAGE than you are to your SPOUSE when working through issues.
> 
> ...


That sounds similar to something I may have said, since I often highlight that it's important to prioritize the marriage more than the "selves" that are in it, but I can't say I have ever considered it as a devotion to spouse more than marriage - it's usually putting self before marriage that causes problems. 

After reading your post, though, I can see where it's possible to put such an emphasis on spouse that the marriage could suffer. Yes, I think this would lead to a doormat kind of situation. 

If I had to compare, I'd fall back to putting the marriage first.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

For four years with my wife and I it's been a toxic journey of mind games, lack of boundaries and selfish manipulations. When we focused on each other, it was just utter chaos. Completely unstable, a roller coaster ride... Then after seperation, when we finally were able to see the flaws of the marriage itself, rather than the flaws of each other, only then did we realise that we needed change.

So in a sense, this is a good perspective. But that's just based on my experience with my wife since D-day.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

Kurosity said:


> Do you know exactly what your needs are? Are you truly meeting your husband's needs? You need to be committed to your self and your H. With out one there is no marriage. Some needs we have can not be met by anyone other then our selves. Are you meeting your needs??
> 
> I think that you should express your concerns with him and not "Force" it on him. I think that approach is going to float as well as cement blocks. Your approach is as important as your purpose.
> Good luck and best wishes


You bring up many good points. I am realizing that I have not been meeting my own needs. I've become so accustomed to my husband expecting all his needs come first that I had allowed myself to disregard my own needs. To the point of not even knowing what my needs even are. I'm working with a counselor on this. 

As far as forcing him to face our issues, by forcing I mean having a serious conversation explaining that I am no longer willing to allow him to bury his head in the sand about problems in our marriage. Based on past experience trying to talk with him about sensitive issues, I expect him to resort to guilting me, telling me I shouldn't feel a certain way, telling me I don't appreciate how nice I have it, etc. But this time, I intend to hold my ground. I won't cave and say 'never mind, everything's fine, sorry I said that'. That's what I mean by "forcing" him to face the issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Waking up to life said:


> I just read a very interesting comment made by someone at the very end of their post. I almost glossed over it, but did a second-take on it. I'm sorry, I can't remember who the author was to give him/her the credit.
> 
> The comment was something about being more committed to your MARRIAGE than you are to your SPOUSE when working through issues.
> 
> ...


This makes perfect sense. It is very insightful. Indeed we need to be comitted to our spouse. But the marriage is the key. You need to be dedicated to the marriage. Since you are part of the marriage you need to be take care of as well. You have to ensure both spouses are having their needs met to protect the marriage.

So yeah, I am cool with being selfless in marriage to a point, but realize the marriage will die if it is a oneway street. Your marriage is vulnerable if both partners needs are not being met.

This said you may feel it is selfless to let your spouse cake eat and have opposite sex friends that make you uncomfotable. However that is not healthy for the marriage for at least two reasons. 1) You are not good with it. 2) The risk it puts on your marriage. I am just using this as an example where there is a conflict of interest in making your spouse happy and the health of the marriage. Maybe another is one spouse wants a threesome and the other does not. It has the same two drawbacks. I am sure there are countless other scenarios.

Alos to switch it around if your needs are not being met over the long haul you are much more vulnerable to an EA or just flat shutting down in the marriage. marriage is two people working together meeting each others needs but indeed it is possible that bad choices can still ultimately hurt the marriage.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Waking up to life said:


> You bring up many good points. I am realizing that I have not been meeting my own needs. I've become so accustomed to my husband expecting all his needs come first that I had allowed myself to disregard my own needs. To the point of not even knowing what my needs even are. I'm working with a counselor on this.
> 
> As far as forcing him to face our issues, by forcing I mean having a serious conversation explaining that I am no longer willing to allow him to bury his head in the sand about problems in our marriage. Based on past experience trying to talk with him about sensitive issues, I expect him to resort to guilting me, telling me I shouldn't feel a certain way, telling me I don't appreciate how nice I have it, etc. But this time, I intend to hold my ground. I won't cave and say 'never mind, everything's fine, sorry I said that'. *That's what I mean by "forcing" him to face the issues.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. I get this point. You are prssuring your spouse to deal with the issues for the betterment of the marriage. Indeed good example.

Have you guys doen His Needs Her Needs?

The manner in which you "force" a spouse to deal with the issues matters I think.

Without getting into specifics at some point you may have to tell your spouse what your deal breakers are. Perhpas what you actually have are boundary issues.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Yes. I get this point. You are prssuring your spouse to deal with the issues for the betterment of the marriage. Indeed good example.
> 
> Have you guys doen His Needs Her Needs?
> 
> ...


That is exactly right. The conversation I'm planning on having is leading up to a frank discussion about deal breakers. But my first step is to get him to admit our marriage needs help and to agree to counseling. If he agrees and will go, the rest of the 'facing the issues' will come through counseling. If he refuses to acknowledge that our marriage needs help and won't go to counseling, that's an automatic deal breaker for me. 

In a way, I feel like I'm committed to the marriage itself out of a sense of obligation. Or maybe out of fear of feeing like a failure for allowing a dysfunctional marriage to have gone on so long if I were to finally leave him. Commitment to the marriage should not be at the expense of either partner's happiness. And I fear this is where I'm at right now.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Waking, here are some things I'm gleaning from your post and that I think Entropy noticed, too.

You sound like your relationship has some troubled communications. You said directly that he tells you how you should feel or guilts you, which are problems. You go on to say you're going to "force" him to face issues and that to you, this means, "not backing down and apologizing." I'd like to think what you're saying is that you're going to uphold your boundaries, but then your next post says, "my first step is to get him to...." 

You're looking at an approach that is problematic. All these years into your marriage, you've "assumed" your husband's values, beliefs, and priorities were more important than your own. At least, that's what you have taught him by caving in during disagreements.

He is *NOT* going to give up that power willingly. There will be no "getting him" to agree to anything that he thinks will diminish that power. 

Plus, your plan means you are going to assert your views as superior or authoritative to his. It's belittling to him. As Thomas Jefferson said, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." You just won't get anywhere.

I would encourage you to adopt a different approach: 

1. Use your behaviors instead of your words. Without more specific examples of your marriage, I can't give actual techniques. But as an example, if your husband has a habit of staying up late and insists that you go to bed together, you just start going to bed when you want to. You don't have to notify him or discuss it to get his consent. You can and should behave in a way that is consistent with your *own* values, priorities, and beliefs.

2. Stop blaming him. Own your own problems instead of seeing him as part of the problem OR part of the solution. Find your own solutions that do not involve him when you're unhappy with something. I know that sounds strange and impossible, but it isn't. I'll give you an example from my marriage - my husband is an indulgent man who loves to shower people he loves with his kindness and generosity, but it caused a problem for us occasionally when it came to his teenage daughter. She was doing poorly in school despite being a very smart girl, was experimenting with drugs, and things like this, and he was ignoring it and showering her with about $2k worth of gifts for her birthday despite her unacceptable behaviors. Instead of trying to convince him that I was right and he was wrong, I said, "I don't think this is going to work. We do not share the same parenting values, and I'm not willing or able to take part in ongoing conflict over it. I am not willing to live that way, so one of two things must happen. Either you'll take steps to make sure she's not lying, using drugs, and failing school, or I will move out until she's on her own." I didn't blame him or make him wrong, but I also didn't surrender my values and beliefs. He experienced an internal conflict that he had to deal with on HIS own. He chose to establish boundaries with her that we could both tolerate.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

KathyBatesel, your comments give me a lot of food for thought. You seem to have a fairly accurate insight into the dynamics in our marriage. Communication is a HUGE problem. We do talk regularly, but always about superficial day to day stuff. Talking about marital problems or sensitive issues is where we become dysfunctional. 

For example, (I've mentioned these things in other threads): We live in a mobile home. We bought it new 19 years ago with the intention of saving up and building a new home. 19 years later, we're still in the mobile home. We can afford to build or move, but when I brought it up again, he asked me what was wrong with where we live. So I said it's hard to have friends over, there's not enough space to do hobbies, etc. Every point I made he countered with some point which basically was saying I was wrong for wanting that. He said "we" don't keep this house very clean, so why should he think "we'd" take any better care of a new house? (We actually DO keep the house clean. It's not a museum, but there's not clutter sitting everywhere, the kitchen is kept clean, I vacuum regularly,etc. Even my son says our house is WAY cleaner than most of his friends' houses!) Then he proceeds to tell me I need to learn to appreciate all the nice things I have for a change. 

In that same conversation, he said I seem "disengaged" lately. The next day I told him that I had been thinking about what he said, and that maybe he's right about me being disengaged. I said perhaps I've been a little depressed, and I thought maybe it would be good for me to see a counselor a few times. He didn't say much at first, but by later that day, he was moping around with this dramatic sad face and not talking. I asked him what was wrong. He said he was so upset by my wanting to go to a counselor he "about puked". He said, "You made me VERY angry today! You know if you go to a counselor, they'll just tell you you need to 'find yourself' and get a divorce!" I said I just was acknowledging his perception that I've been disengaged lately and wanted to work on it, and that maybe I've just been stressed from work, etc. (trying to make it about fixing myself, not him). He said if my work stresses me to the point I can't be a good mom and good wife, then I need to just quit my job. Then he stormed off and went to bed 3 hours early. The next day, he acted like nothing was wrong and the conversation never happened. 

This is the dynamic of how taking about problems and needs goes in our marriage. And this is why I think that marital counseling is the only way to properly address the issues.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Waking,
A counsellor might be a good idea. Yep, he will feel like puking because he might get thrown under the bus. 

Anytime you have a persistent situation where your thoughts and feelings are being "rugswept", it's difficult to move forward when your partner tries to convince you that your feelings are "wrong".

It can be a method to avoid conflict. Thus the pretend like everything is back to normal the next day. Bury your head in the sand. 

We all want to be acknowledged when we speak, to feel heard, and that our side of the story is important. Same goes for your needs in a relationship.

The more you DO in a marriage, the less your partner will DO in turn. It becomes a habit.

This takes practice, but you can help him by redirecting the convesrsation. Recognize when he is turning things back on you in a convo. Don't get sucked into it. (I have this same issue, btw).
You asked a pointed question about the house. He turned it around on you and made you spin with defending yourself about how clean it is. 

Write down your convo points. Keep going back to it. Redirect to get an answer. Is it an excuse, or a way to just end the convo? Probably. 

How do you redirect? Acknowledge what he said. Tell him you are willing to talk about that after, when it's his turn to talk. Most people do this because they feel they are being ATTACKED, and so they attack back, putting YOU on the defensive. 

How do you bring up a convo point without sounding like you are attacking? Very carefully. Use the word I, not you. Never use the words always or never. Make sure you have good examples of the behavior. Discuss how it made YOU feel, and reinforce that you are unhappy with the behavior, not the person. Don't bring up the past, don't point out that "promises aren't fulfulled". And always offer solutions. 


By that, I mean noboby wants to be reminded that they didn't fulfull their promises. Okay, the past cannot be changed. What about today? do you still want to build a house? Then simply ASK. Make the suggestion. Tell him you've done the research and you know you can afford it, so let's make a plan together to make it happen. 

Don't let him snow you over with excuses. Be direct. You don't have to "defend" what you want. When he starts doing that, you can paraphrase it so he understands what you are hearing.
"Are you saying you don't want to build a house?". "Are you saying this is no longer a goal for us, and we will NOT build a house".

See if that makes him waffle, or backup a bit. If it does, then he does just like to argue. Passive Aggressive crap is a nightmare to live with.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

I think what saved our marriage was the commitment to the "Marriage" more than the spouse. We all change through the years and some go through the MLC stage which I believe can crate cheating greener pastures thinking. It is a foggy patch in the the timeline of the "Marriage".

Michele Werner Davis's books cover this well. Depending on how self-centered or marriage centered you are, you can save the marriage if it is the priority.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> KathyBatesel, your comments give me a lot of food for thought. You seem to have a fairly accurate insight into the dynamics in our marriage. Communication is a HUGE problem. We do talk regularly, but always about superficial day to day stuff. Talking about marital problems or sensitive issues is where we become dysfunctional.
> 
> For example, (I've mentioned these things in other threads): We live in a mobile home. We bought it new 19 years ago with the intention of saving up and building a new home. 19 years later, we're still in the mobile home. We can afford to build or move, but when I brought it up again, he asked me what was wrong with where we live. So I said it's hard to have friends over, there's not enough space to do hobbies, etc. Every point I made he countered with some point which basically was saying I was wrong for wanting that. He said "we" don't keep this house very clean, so why should he think "we'd" take any better care of a new house? (We actually DO keep the house clean. It's not a museum, but there's not clutter sitting everywhere, the kitchen is kept clean, I vacuum regularly,etc. Even my son says our house is WAY cleaner than most of his friends' houses!) Then he proceeds to tell me I need to learn to appreciate all the nice things I have for a change.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to comment on what your husband said. In many cases counselors will advocate to their clients that they need to become less codependent. While in certain cases (and maybe in yours) the person does need to become more self reliant, the codependency angle oftentimes becomes the complete focus of the counseling and many times does indeed lead to divorce. If you read Dr. Harley's His Needs, Her Needs (which has already been suggested I believe) he talks about this problem in the counseling industry.

Another point, in addition to His Needs, Her Needs I suggest you read another book by Dr. Harley called Love Busters. It sounds like both you and your husband might be engaging in some "love busting" behavior. If that is going on then you will not be able to effectively communicate to each other in a meaningful way until those love destroying tactics end.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> In that same conversation, he said I seem "disengaged" lately. The next day I told him that I had been thinking about what he said, and that maybe he's right about me being disengaged. I said perhaps I've been a little depressed, and I thought maybe it would be good for me to see a counselor a few times. He didn't say much at first, but by later that day, he was moping around with this dramatic sad face and not talking. I asked him what was wrong. He said he was so upset by my wanting to go to a counselor he "about puked". He said, "You made me VERY angry today! You know if you go to a counselor, they'll just tell you you need to 'find yourself' and get a divorce!"


^ This is super important to what you're going through.

1. It reveals that he knows he isn't measuring up and he feels responsible. He doesn't know how to let you have your feelings and he feels like a failure when you're not happy.

2. At the same time, it also shows that he recognizes your right to do as you see fit in at least some ways. He didn't outright try to force you not to, even though he certainly resisted later.

3. He fears you will leave him. You need to acknowledge that this gives you some power in the relationship. Talking is not the way to assert it, though. Let him come to you with problems and not the other way around for now. You stick to letting him learn your wants and needs by watching you satisfy them yourself.

The next time he says he doesn't want you to see a counselor, remind him that his presence would avoid a counselor telling you to go "find yourself."

You used your mobile home as an example of the kinds of things you go through, so I'll use that to demonstrate the behavior approach. Pick up some Homes magazines or call a Realtor to come look at your house and give you an estimate of what it can sell for. Also print up a couple of houses you'd like to see. ASSUME that he will go along with you. If he complains, use answers like, "I understand that your views are very different from mine. I am not willing to stay living here, and I am researching my options. I'm open to listening about solutions you have, but I am going to move one way or another. Do you have any suggestions for how we can find a good solution?" 

When he comes back to some way of trying to make you change your mind as a good solution, become a broken record. "I've already said that staying here is no longer negotiable for me."

Do you notice how your behavior is what prompted the discussion, and how you have not forced anything upon him? He's free to stay, you're free to leave, or he's free to negotiate another solution that doesn't require you staying.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

KathyBatesel said:


> ^ This is super important to what you're going through.
> 
> 1. It reveals that he knows he isn't measuring up and he feels responsible. He doesn't know how to let you have your feelings and he feels like a failure when you're not happy.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> ^ This is super important to what you're going through.
> 
> 1. It reveals that he knows he isn't measuring up and he feels responsible. He doesn't know how to let you have your feelings and he feels like a failure when you're not happy.
> 
> ...


KathyBatesel, again, you are amazingly insightful. I get what you're trying to say. Rather than have an official 'sit down, we need to talk' approach, I should make him see the issues by showing him that I have certain needs that I need to have met, so I'm taking it upon myself to meet those. 

It definitely works in situations like the house. In fact, I had thought of using that exact same approach that you wrote. But...I don't know how to apply that to situations such as, I am very unfulfilled sexually due to his 120 lb weight gain and the major damper that has put on my attraction to him and his physical inability to do certain things that I really want sexually (like plain old missionary style...I know that sounds boring, but I crave the closeness and the feeling if him taking charge sexually. I want that so bad, haven't had that in 15+ years, and don't see that changing). How do I meet my need for that without him? Obviously an affair isn't the answer. How do I get my sexual needs met while I'm waiting for him to get the hint that it's a problem? I'm really getting tired of my affair with my vibrator. Sorry for the TMI.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I'd use the vibrator WHILE he's at home and without inviting him. When he asks, I'd say I was remembering the way we used to have missionary style sex and that I missed it, so this was the way I experienced it again.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Waking,
I agree with KathyBatesel that his self esteem is maybe being indicative of some of the issues. 

Know that for a man, not being physically able to give you what he wants has got to be killing him.

I'm similar in the way that I also "crave" the take charge kinda guy in the bedroom. It's good to recognize that's what you want, but it's up to him to get to that place. If he reads.... maybe he'd take a look at the Married Man's Sex Primer? 

From the wife's point of view.. how do you "help" a man to "man up"??

You take 20 steps backwards. You shut your mouth. You let him fall down. You let him make decisions. All of them. You don't make his lunch, or stuff him with fatty food, or make comments or judgements on anything he does. Other than to say .... "I'm certain you will make the best decision. I trust your judgement". You don't give advice, even when he asks for it.

That being said.... let's say he goes on a diet. Today. It will take maybe a YEAR for him to be in the manly shape you want. He might never look like your fantasy hard body, but slimmer anyways. What are you doing to do in the meantime?

Convince yourself that you won't be happy until.... A, B, C. And there is always something else. 

Yes, it's okay to admit (to yourself) that he's not the hunk you desire. It's a personal choice for you to do one of two things:

Accept him the way he is, encourage him to be more healthy, explore ways that you can be intimate in a way that you want. A big guy like him ... maybe he's afraid of hurting you? Subtle hints about what you want him to do, start a bit of light play wresting, then make the comment that it gets you aroused when he's aggresive. Lots of ways to "give the signal" what you want. 

Option 2,
Accept that he is never going to change, and if it is a dealbreaker for you, then consider the fair thing to do.


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