# Respect



## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

I've heard it said many, many times that a man's #1 need in a marriage is respect/honor. Sex is a close 2nd, but respect trumps all. I tend to agree with that because if I feel disrespected, I couldn't care less about having sex with my wife. I say all that to ask for input from both the men and women on a very specific incident that happened a few weeks ago. Men, my question to you is: Would you find this disrepectful, or that your wife "didn't have your back". Ladies, would you do something like this or see it as "not having your husbands back"? Here's the story....

A few weeks ago we got a bill in the mail from a dentist that had done a root canal on me last January(2014). It's important to mention that I went to this dentist because he's a member of my wife's networking group and she wanted to do business with him in hopes that he would send her business. He was very expensive, but my wife thought it was an "investment" in her business, so I went..

After the work was done, we set up a payment plan and he did an auto payment every month on our debit card. Unknowingly, the debit card expired 6 months ago and I had no idea. So we get a bill for about $2,000 and I hit the roof. Not only did I believe the balance had already been paid, but we heard nothing from the dentist informing us that their attempts to take the payments kept being declined. No phone call, no letter, nothing. So, I called the dentist and asked why they hadn't tried to contact us sooner and that this would have been an easy fix if they had just told us. While I was on the phone I asked the dentist "Since it's been 6 months since the card expired and since the balance would have been paid in full by now, would you take a 1 time payment of $1,200 and be done with it"? He declined my offer, saying that he didn't believe he should discount his services just because of this situation. I didn't disagree, but I thought maybe he'd prefer $1,200 in his pocket right then and there, rather than dragging out the payments for several more months. I gave him the number on the new debit card and that was the end of it. 

I came home and told my wife of our conversation and she was PISSED! She couldn't believe I had made an offer like that to him. Had it been just any other dentist, she probably wouldn't have cared, but this was one of her networking relationships. 

A couple of days later I mentioned it in passing and she said "I paid that balance in full". I couldn't believe it. It was a 0% interest payment plan. Why drop $2,000 when he would have simply picked up where he left off 6 months ago? Who turns down a 0% interest loan? LOL She then tells me "I was so upset that you made him a settlement offer that I called them, made the payment, and *APOLOGIZED TO HIM FOR WHAT YOU HAD DONE! *

I hit the F'ing roof! I was hot!!!!! "YOU DID WHAT?!". "I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU DID THAT". In no uncertain terms, I said "You apologized for me, to someone you hardly know, simply because you could potentially make money on that relationship"? "Is that relationship more important to you than our marriage". "Are you more concerned with what they think of you than you are with us being united"? She doubled down and stood by her actions. She said "*You were wrong for doing that*" and never either admitted wrong or apologized. My response was "I don't care how wrong you think I was. You don't say that to anyone but me". "You can tell me behind closed doors that you think I was wrong, but we stand united in front of others. You have my back and I have your back, and when we get home, then we can discuss how we really don't support what one of us does. But we never let that get out of our home and we never display that to anyone else". 

So, am I going overboard for feeling like that was a disrespectful thing for her to do? She literally told the dentist, "My husband was wrong for doing that". Ladies, would you do something like this? Men, would you feel similarly to what I felt? I'm really wondering if I was being overly sensitive. Thanks


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## Eyvonne (Mar 23, 2015)

Obviously, I cannot speak for all women, I can only speak for myself. 

Firstly, I wouldn't have paid it in full to begin with, because, as you pointed out, it was a 0% intrest loan; even if we had the money available then it just makes more sense (to me) to keep the money in "our" bank account for as long as possible (you never know when you will need money for something unexpected) than to give it all in one lump sum if it isn't costing anything extra to pay it out over time. 

Secondly, you are on about one of the "attitudes" that I think is important for a marriage to work: the couple should stand united to the public eye, to the in-laws, and to the children regardless of how you feel privately. If you aren't going to conduct yourself as a United couple, then what is the point? If you go about your business as though you are single without a spouse with whom you are "contractually" bound too, than why not just be single?

Jmo,
Evie


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

Eyvonne said:


> Obviously, I cannot speak for all women, I can only speak for myself.
> 
> Firstly, I wouldn't have paid it in full to begin with, because, as you pointed out, it was a 0% intrest loan; even if we had the money available then it just makes more sense (to me) to keep the money in "our" bank account for as long as possible (you never know when you will need money for something unexpected) than to give it all in one lump sum if it isn't costing anything extra to pay it out over time.
> 
> ...


In hind site, what was most important to her was to look good to the dentist that she does business with. She liked being able to call him and say "I can just pay this right here and now". Doing the right thing by me or making the smarter financial decision was secondary to her wanting to protect or even strengthen her reputation with the dentist.


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

I'm speaking for myself as well....but if it were me, I would've let the payment plan continue as well. You called the dentist & worked out the situation, all is fine in my book.

I'm not going to lie & say I wouldn't be at least a little embarrassed of the situation. Simply because it was a debt that would've probably already been paid off. With that being said, I would have never called the dentist & make my husband appear as a dolt either.

I think you are correct in your assessment that your wife put more importance to her business relationship with the dentist than her own relationship with her husband. I can understand why you feel the way you do, that's like a slap in the face. I think your wife's initial reaction was one of shame & she ran with it.


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

Lila said:


> I agree with your wife and here's why. I too work in the service industry and charge a hefty premium for my hard work. I've priced my product in accordance with market demand which is based on quality, technical experience, and customer service in a niche industry. It would be completely disrespectful to me if one of my clients offered a settlement for a product that was satisfactorily delivered and accepted. I would see them as no better than a thief.
> 
> By offering the 60% settlement, you essentially tried to short change the dentist. It may not have been the message you tried to send but I guarantee the message received by the Dr. was that you are an opportunist. The Dr. now thinks of your wife as an opportunist by association.
> 
> I agree that you and your wife should be a team when it comes to decision making. In this case you made a unilateral decision that did not present you (couple) in the best light.


I totally can see this as well, Lila....good insight!


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

If you want to be a team, you probably should have discussed this with your wife before you called the dentist in the first place.

You showed yourself to be "cheap" when you tried to get the dentist to discount his professional services. You screwed up, why should he be out money. Perhaps this embarassed your wife since she hopes to do business with the dentist.

If you thought you were paying $200 a month all along, you shoiuld still have that money in your account. Why not just pay the dentist the arrears of the payment plan you AGREED to?


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## Eyvonne (Mar 23, 2015)

Shake_It_Up said:


> In hind site, what was most important to her was to look good to the dentist that she does business with. She liked being able to call him and say "I can just pay this right here and now". Doing the right thing by me or making the smarter financial decision was secondary to her wanting to protect or even strengthen her reputation with the dentist.


Though I can understand her reasoning (I used to own a catering company and networking and word-of-mouth are VITAL to anyone running a service based industry), I am still of the opinion that she shouldn't have under-cut you by immediately re-contacting the Dentist. While I DO think that it was inapproiate for you to offer less than you owed for the service, I also think that the Dentist himself should have apologized for not informing you of the situation earlier (I am sure it was actually a staff member at fault, but when one of my waiters made a mistake--I made a mistake, at least so far as the public is concerned). 

Though you and the Dentist struggled amongst yourselves to establish who was "in the right" vs "who was in the wrong", it sounds to me (at least from what you have shared) that the two of you came to an agreement that was amenable to you both: you would pay the full amount, at the rate and over the time period he agreed too. That being said, her coming in behind you and literally "renegotiateing" terms (with the intent of giving him better terms than you agreed to in hopes of improving her own standing in his eyes) is simply disrespectful imo.

Evie


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

I know you are asking for the ladies to comment, but I would let it go and tell her you thought about it and realize why its important to her and you regret not going with that to start with. You were just doing business the way you do but this involves her business.

It sounds like you are hot because of the cost and his refusal of your offer, and you are making something into "a matter of respect" because you are displeased. Let it go.

When someone says "it the principle not the money" well "Its the money"

Accept her and her viewpoint here, you cant change her or her values, she has a right to be who she is. Be strong here.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I would have been profoundly embarrassed that you haggled over price - on an account that was in arrears, no less - with another professional. While I wouldn't have told the dentist you were wrong, I would absolutely have called and apologized for the tardiness of payment and then mailed a check for the remaining amount in full. 

And, sorry, but who doesn't notice that their debit card has expired? And that a $200 a month payment isn't being made? Did no one balance that account in all that time and realize something was up? Honestly, that would probably have embarrassed me, as someone who purports to be a business professional, more than anything else about this situation. Perhaps that's where you wife was coming from as well, OP.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

You both were disrespectful of each other. 

You did not show respect to your wife, her feelings on building her professional network etc by your offer to pay the dentist less than what he was owed. In other words, you did not have your wife's back. 

She in turn did what she felt was necessary to save face with the dentist without consulting you, she threw you under the bus. 

You are embarrassed on a personal level by what your wife did, making an apology for your behavior. She is embarrassed on a professional and personal level by your behavior.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think it was a mistake for you to see this dentist because now your wife's personal life and business are somewhat mixed. There's an inherent interest conflict on her part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

I see nothing wrong with haggling over a bill. Your wife should not have paid that bill until she talked it over with you. There is no reason you or she should apologize to the Dentist. I doubt he was offended. I would never have paid this bill without talking to my husband about it so I agree with you that she is disrespecting you.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Happilymarried25 said:


> I see nothing wrong with haggling over a bill.


:iagree:

People barter over balances due all the time.

When a doctor's office mistakenly sent a bill of mine to collections (they were posting all of my payments to someone else's account) I basically cussed them out for turning my account over to collections without ever trying to resolve it with ME.

I didn't ASK for a renegotiated settlement... I simply told them the amount I was WILLING to pay after all the grief and trouble they had caused me. I said, "Here is what WE are going to do..."

The doc agreed. His office sent notices to all three credit bureaus removing the strike. And I settled for less than 2/3 of what I owed.

The problem was due to HIS incompetent staff (same as OP's situation). Their office should have notified OP when the first debit charge was rejected.

OP's wife did not have her husband's back at all on this one.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

Wow! Differing opinions. Never would have expected that.  Let me simplify the question. Ladies, would you have gone to the dentist first and apologized for your husband's diabolical behaviour or would you have told him, face to face, "I don't think that was right", and then moved from there on how to fix the issue.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Workathome said:


> If you want to be a team, you probably should have discussed this with your wife before you called the dentist in the first place.
> 
> You showed yourself to be "cheap" when you tried to get the dentist to discount his professional services. You screwed up, why should he be out money. Perhaps this embarassed your wife since she hopes to do business with the dentist.
> 
> If you thought you were paying $200 a month all along, you shoiuld still have that money in your account. Why not just pay the dentist the arrears of the payment plan you AGREED to?


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## code20 (Feb 5, 2014)

Women are not raised to be comfortable with negotiation. we are raised to be scared of hurting someone's feelings and being disliked. This really does us a disservice in so many ways - especially salaries.

i would not have approved of my husband trying this without tellng me. If i was really scared that you had made this guy angry i might have paid him to soothe his hurt feelings so he would not be mad at me. getting this guy mad meant something bad would happen in your wifes point of view.

its not really a thoughtful response- more emotional.


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

Shake_It_Up said:


> Wow! Differing opinions. Never would have expected that.  Let me simplify the question. Ladies, would you have gone to the dentist first and apologized for your husband's diabolical behaviour or would you have told him, face to face, "I don't think that was right", and then moved from there on how to fix the issue.


If I was in your wife's situation where this dentist is a (possibly important) business relationship, I would have talked to my husband first & then figured out a way to fix it (with husband's help). But I think your wife was embarrassed about the situation & reacted quickly in damage control mode.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

She threw you under the bus. No doubt about it. This was between you and the dentist. She felt embarrassed by your actions so in turn she embarrassed you to him. I agree, no matter how poor your decisions are to strangers, and long as they are not immoral, she should of had your back. You got disrespected.

You however have some accountability in getting involved with your wife's affairs and in negotiating a settlement without speaking to her. In the future, DO NOT get involved with your wife's potential clients anymore in any capacity whatsoever. When you mix business and personal relationships someone eventually gets hurt.

Consider it a life lesson and let it go...


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Shake_It_Up said:


> Wow! Differing opinions. *Never would have expected that*.  Let me simplify the question. Ladies, would you have gone to the dentist first and apologized for your husband's diabolical behaviour or would you have told him, face to face, "I don't think that was right", and then moved from there on how to fix the issue.


Whether I would have had the conversation with my husband before or after I called the dentist's office would probably depend on the overall state of the relationship and what I knew of my spouse. 

That you are now reframing the question further in hopes of getting the answer you obviously wanted as to which of you was in the right, leads me to think that you and your wife probably have communication issues that transcend the one incident. Further, that you seem surprised by the mixed reactions, might indicate that you haven't really thought about this situation from perspectives other than your own. Interestingly, it's actually possible for two people to experience the same situation very differently, without either of them being "wrong". 

So, is this a one-off, or do you often feel your wife doesn't respect you? Do you respect her?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Workathome said:


> *If you want to be a team, you probably should have discussed this with your wife before you called the dentist in the first place.*


 This was my initial thoughts.. this is where HE messed up BIG TIME.. I can see her being angry over his not speaking to her 1st.. all it would have taken was a phone call.. and she would have said.. "DON'T DO THAT! ..It's 0 Interest !" ..... then none of this would have spiraled out of control.. 

Communicate, communicate, communicate.. take it to each other first, even if tempers are flared.. keep it at home.. work it out, then go forth together.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I think your wife was wise and she called it right, she made it work.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

I wonder how many of you would feel the same way if Shake was buddies with the dentist and the wife was having a tiff with said dentist and Shake started apologizing to his friend for his wife's "irrational" behavior without her permission or consulting her. 

The dentist is a POTENTIAL client. She doesn't even have any actual business with him. That's worth making your husband look like a fool? He was paying the dentist as they both agreed. Why did she need to butt in AFTER the matter was resolved between them? 

She basically renegotiated an already settled contract between the two of them with 0% interest that she wasn't even a party too. The only thing she succeeded in doing was emasculating her husband. It may be hard for some of you to understand but that matters to a man as much as feeling beautiful matters to a woman.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

For the record, the only reason I called the dentist was because she told me to handle it. And for those of you wondering about how I didn't know my card was expired, of course I knew that. I just didn't know that card was the one linked to the dental payments and we never got a bill for 6 months. Not sure what those details have to do with the original questions, but there ya go.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

BetrayedDad said:


> She basically renegotiated an already settled contract between the two of them with 0% interest that she wasn't even a party too. The only thing she succeeded in doing was emasculating her husband. It may be hard for some of you to understand but that matters to a man as much as feeling beautiful matters to a woman.


I certainly don't expect the ladies to understand that. All I really wanted to know from them is if they would have responded in the same way as my wife. Wife says " call them and take care of it", then doesn't approve of the way I took care of it, and goes behind my back to make sure the dentist knows she doesn't approve.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Shake_It_Up said:


> I certainly don't expect the ladies to understand that. All I really wanted to know from them is if they would have responded in the same way as my wife.


Despite their defense of her actions for obvious reasons I personally have my doubts because unlike your wife they still respect their SO's. 

Look, it might be time for you to start to "Shake it up" in your relationship. Because with the clear loss of respect she has for you will inevitably come a loss of attraction. From there, it's a slippery slope if you catch my drift...

Good luck.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

BetrayedDad said:


> Shake_It_Up said:
> 
> 
> > I certainly don't expect the ladies to understand that. All I really wanted to know from them is if they would have responded in the same way as my wife.
> ...


My TAM handle is no accident. I'm way ahead of you....


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Shake_It_Up said:


> I certainly don't expect the ladies to understand that. All I really wanted to know from them is if they would have responded in the same way as my wife. Wife says " call them and take care of it", then doesn't approve of the way I took care of it, and goes behind my back to make sure the dentist knows she doesn't approve.



I wouldn't have called the dentist and drawn more attention to it. I would have been embarrassed by how you handled it and would have made that clear to you. 

The goal of the visit was to get your tooth fixed and cultivate a business contact for your wife. You knew and agreed to that part. So I would assume that you would know that being six months behind in a payment requires an explanation, not a discount. Asking for the discount is where it crossed into a negative situation. It probably left the dentist with a bad taste in his mouth


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Shake_It_Up said:


> I certainly don't expect the ladies to understand that. All I really wanted to know from them is if they would have responded in the same way as my wife. Wife says " call them and take care of it", then doesn't approve of the way I took care of it, and goes behind my back to make sure the dentist knows she doesn't approve.


Ok let me speak for this... Honestly and truly.... if I said to MY husband ...YOU HANDLE IT...she is putting her trust in you......she in fact EXCUSED herself from the situation.. (didn't realize this was the case or missed that in the beginning post)...

She ought to know you well enough to know how you may handle a situation like this.. even in your irritation... ya know.. our character traits do come out after so many years married.. if it's a common trait of yours (just saying) to "jew" another down in dealings.. she might not have done this -asking you to handle it.. I doubt these things ever came to her mind....

She did say had it been any other dentist.. she wouldn't have cared... interesting.. 

So really it's less about *ethical dealings* vs... HER wanting to appeal to him as a future client.. *so the loss of respect is feeling she is putting her Job before you/ your handling of this *.... one could say ???


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## Tubbalard (Feb 8, 2015)

I'm sorry man, but I'm going to have to take your wife's side. This has nothing to do with gender or respect. In my opinion you indulged in slimy tactics and bad business. Your wife was embarrassed and paid in full. Your tactics could have ruined your wife's business reputation. You essentially tried to nickel and dime a dentist on a bill. I've never seen that in my life.

You pulled one of those used car sale tactics. Basically where two people agree on a price by phone but then the other person shows up saying "All I have is X amount of money, I'm X short". Basically a sneaky lowball scheme.

Now let's replicate what you did on a street level. Think Sopranos or The wire. Big paulie gave you and your wife some "work". He expects a certain amount back, but he'll let you pay it back installments and he's not putting money on the dollar (interest). You and your wife and Big paulie for some reason lost touch and he couldn't find you. He caught up to you. You tell him you weren't trying to duck, you had to take care of somethings and still possessed the "work" and had not sold it all but planned on paying all along. He okays it but then you tried to give him a lump sum of 60% on the spot to pay off the outstanding balance. Big Paulie tells you no and gives you grace to pay in full with installments. Your wife fears for your life, smoothes it over and pays it off in full. Little did you know Big Paulie had a contract on your head for trying to chump him. But thanks to your wife She paid it off and you get to live. 

What you did can get you killed on the street. Thankfully this isn't the streets but I'm trying to get you to see that these bad business tactics with no integrity and honor can lead to your demise. However it may be. I'm surprised the Dentist didn't get angry.

Yes your wife could have discussed it with you, but you put her in a bad position that she kind of panicked and had to react quickly.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

Thanks for the responses. It was a mixed bag, as I expected. But several of the ladies felt it was disrespectful on my wife's part to do what she did, and that at least tells me I'm not completely nuts for feeling the way I did. 

You all would have to know the pattern in our home when it comes to respect, or the lack thereof. Had this been an isolated incident, it may not have hurt like it did. But it was simply another log on the fire. The lesser details of knowing the card was expired, offering a settlement, etc... was secondary to the core issue, which for me was feeling my wife was more concerned with her reputation with a dentist that has not sent her any business than anything else. That's just how I feel, wrong or right. 

Ladies, if you don't already know this, there's nothing we men need more than respect and honor. You won't know that by reading TAM. In here, we look like sex freaks with 1 track minds. But in reality we desperately need to know that our wives have our backs and believe in us. Without respect, you're fighting an uphill battle to win our hearts. With it, there's nothing we won't do for you. And I mean NOTHING!


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

Shake_It_Up said:


> Ladies, if you don't already know this, there's nothing we men need more than respect and honor. You won't know that by reading TAM. In here, we look like sex freaks with 1 track minds. But in reality we desperately need to know that our wives have our backs and believe in us. Without respect, you're fighting an uphill battle to win our hearts. With it, there's nothing we won't do for you. And I mean NOTHING!


Respect and honor are a two way street. I cannot honor and respect a man who does not do the same for me. If the man in my life doesn't have my back then I lose respect. If he doesn't acknowledge that I feel disrespected, I can't honor him.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

Tubbalard said:


> Now let's replicate what you did on a street level. Think Sopranos or The wire. Big paulie gave you and your wife some "work". He expects a certain amount back, but he'll let you pay it back installments and he's not putting money on the dollar (interest). You and your wife and Big paulie for some reason lost touch and he couldn't find you. He caught up to you. You tell him you weren't trying to duck, you had to take care of somethings and still possessed the "work" and had not sold it all but planned on paying all along. He okays it but then you tried to give him a lump sum of 60% on the spot to pay off the outstanding balance. Big Paulie tells you no and gives you grace to pay in full with installments. Your wife fears for your life, smoothes it over and pays it off in full. Little did you know Big Paulie had a contract on your head for trying to chump him. But thanks to your wife She paid it off and you get to live.


LOL!!! That makes no sense... If I say "Hey Big Paulie, I'm good for the money. Always have been. In fact, I didn't know my wife hadn't been paying you. She always pays the bills and this is news to me. I'm sorry for the confusion. I can keep paying you $100 every month for the next 20 months, but I've got $1,200 in a shoe box in the attic and if you want that right now to call it done, I'll gladly do that. Is that acceptable?" I'm not making him "an offer he can't refuse". But Big Paulie can decide which direction he wants to go, and I'm good with either.....

Now, in the real "Big Paulie" world, he may say "bring me the $1,200 by tomorrow and then I'll let you pay off the other $800 over 8 months". And in the real "Big Paulie" world there's no way I want him to know I have a shoe box full of cash. But my dentist isn't Big Paulie.

And since you've "never seen this", I'll tell you that it is actually pretty common with medical doctors and hospitals. People do it every day to protect their credit. You'd be surprised how little a hospital will accept in a 1 time payment just to keep from taking you to collections. My offer of 60% was very generous in comparison to what a lot of doctors will accept.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

coffee4me said:


> Respect and honor are a two way street. I cannot honor and respect a man who does not do the same for me. If the man in my life doesn't have my back then I lose respect. If he doesn't acknowledge that I feel disrespected, I can't honor him.


Are you speaking in generalities, or are you suggesting I disrespected my wife? If you're speaking in generalities, then I agree 100%. If you're saying I disrespected my wife, realize that if my wife hadn't told me to "call them and handle it", we wouldn't be talking about this. In the words of the classic song, "I did it myyyyyyyyy way".


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Shake_It_Up said:


> And since you've "never seen this", I'll tell you that *it is actually pretty common with medical doctors and hospitals.* People do it every day to protect their credit. You'd be surprised how little a hospital will accept in a 1 time payment just to keep from taking you to collections. My offer of 60% was very generous in comparison to what a lot of doctors will accept.


:iagree:

My ex was a doctor, and his patients used to try to negotiate their bills all the time. It's quite common, especially if they don't have medical insurance. And he often accepted less than the full amount vs. potentially getting nothing at all.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

Shake_It_Up said:


> Are you speaking in generalities, or are you suggesting I disrespected my wife? If you're speaking in generalities, then I agree 100%. If you're saying I disrespected my wife, realize that if my wife hadn't told me to "call them and handle it", we wouldn't be talking about this. In the words of the classic song, "I did it myyyyyyyyy way".


You did it your way with no consideration to how your wife would feel. You did it your way and your wife feels professionally embarrassed. You fail to acknowledge how your actions made your wife feel this way, therefore you show her no respect or honor.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

coffee4me said:


> You did it your way with no consideration to how your wife would feel. You did it your way and your wife feels professionally embarrassed.


Sorry, but OP's wife ASKED him to take care of it. She obviously didn't want to be bothered with it.

Only AFTER he did it "his way" (at her urging) did she step in and "undo" it. To me, that is disrespectful.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

Shake it Up-

In a recent post you eluded to this instance being an example of a greater issue with disrespect from your wife...

Have you ever heard of Marriage Builders? Dr. Harley has a great concept called the "Policy of Joint Agreement" (POJA), which means, never do anything without enthusiastic agreement from both you and your spouse...

My suggestion in changing this dynamic, would be to discuss your plan of action ahead of time... So, when your wife asked you to handle it, you could explain to her what you plan on doing to handle it- then you both are on the same page ( a united front) before any action is taken. This would give you the opportunity to express how you would like to handle it and give your wife the opportunity to express that she was not comfortable with that approach and suggest another. Then you and she both discuss what approach would work the best fro both of you.

I see disrespect from both sides... not sure it does any help to say who is more right or more wrong for a given situation...but rather to seek out an option to change the current dynamic that is not working for you.

Just my two cents.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Shake_It_Up said:


> And since you've "never seen this", I'll tell you that it is actually pretty common with medical doctors and hospitals. People do it every day to protect their credit. You'd be surprised how little a hospital will accept in a 1 time payment just to keep from taking you to collections. My offer of 60% was very generous in comparison to what a lot of doctors will accept.


I'll add to that further.... Insurance companies do it EVERYDAY. You think blue cross is paying $300 for a checkup? Open up any Explanation of Benefits (EOB) you get it the mail. Blue cross will pay $125, you pay your $25 copay and the other $150 is disallowed and the doc/dentist eats it. 

Funny, how it's okay for insurance companies to do it because supposedly being a member of insurance co.'s network drives business to them so they happily eat the 40-60% difference. But if a consumer wants the same deal they're the mafia? Ridiculous, he made an offer, the dentist said no, I still don't see a problem. The dentist is a big boy, I doubt he was crying himself to sleep that night.

I've negotiated medical expenses, suits, cars, houses, salary, etc. just about everything outside of a grocery store, restaurant or a competitive retail store. You're a fool if you offer to pay sticker for anything. What does it hurt to ask? Worse case they say no. Who cares??? They still want your money.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> Sorry, but OP's wife ASKED him to take care of it. She obviously didn't want to be bothered with it.
> 
> Only AFTER he did it "his way" (at her urging) did she step in and "undo" it. To me, that is disrespectful.


I'm sure his wife did not think for a second that he would embarrass her professionally. Perhaps she falsely believed that he would have her back when she asked him to make that call. 

It's a two way street.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

cons said:


> Shake it Up-
> 
> In a recent post you eluded to this instance being an example of a greater issue with disrespect from your wife...
> 
> ...


I actually agree with you here, in hind sight of course.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

coffee4me said:


> I'm sure his wife did not think for a second that he would embarrass her professionally. Perhaps she falsely believed that he would have her back when she asked him to make that call.
> 
> It's a two way street.


One thing that's impossible for anyone here to know is that my wife comes to me to "handle things" that may require some extra, shall we say "encouragement" to get the other party to see things my way. And she would be the first to tell you that I have a way of intimidating people, and she uses that to her advantage when she needs me to "handle things". She's even taught my son that I'm the one to do the dirty work when it's needed. 

When she tells me, "I bought this dress 2 months ago and want to return it, but I don't have my receipt", I know what she means. She's going to give me the dress and send me in to make sure she gets a refund instead of an exchange. 

So when she told me "call the dentist and handle this", she knew what she was saying and she certainly knows me well enough to know that I may not be nice about it.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Shake_It_Up said:


> I actually agree with you here, in hind sight of course.


Maybe you can focus on that insight and think about how to use that insight in the future, rather than being so invested in figuring out who disrespected whom so you can be "right."


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

Can you even acknowledge that your wife felt professionally embarrassed by what you did? 

If you can, perhaps she can acknowledge that you feel emasculated by her paying the bill.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

Hindsight is where we learn to grow...to make changes...within ourselves and within our relationship.

Looking back and confirming how right you are is a futile effort and does not edify your marriage.

Take this example to grow from....


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> I've negotiated medical expenses, suits, cars, houses, salary, etc. just about everything outside of a grocery store, restaurant or a competitive retail store. *You're a fool if you offer to pay sticker for anything. *What does it hurt to ask? Worse case they say no. Who cares??? They still want your money.


:iagree:

Well said, BD!

I am a woman (not that it matters, but some of the women on this thread seem to think OP disgraced the family by trying to negotiate a deal) and I ALWAYS try to negotiate! Just last week, I took my car in to the Volvo dealership. They quoted me a repair price of $1465. I told them I couldn't pay that, if they could do it for $1200 we had a deal. They accepted it. Why? Because they knew I would shop around at the two other Volvo dealerships in town for a better price. They wanted my business. (Score! -- saved 265 bucks)

And as a small business owner, people are ALWAYS trying to negotiate with me for a "better" price for our services. It doesn't offend me in the least.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Well said, BD!
> 
> ...


Negotiating beforehand is one thing, and is perfectly acceptable. But once you agree to a price and set up a payment plan, the time for negotiating is over UNLESS you are in breach and putting the provider of goods/services in the position of accepting less or getting stiffed.

If it was about getting a good deal on his root canal he should have told his wife he was going to shop around.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Well said, BD!
> 
> ...


Do you negotiate _after _you've already agreed to pay a specific price, started paying the agreed upon price, and then didn't pay anything for 6 months?


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

coffee4me said:


> Can you even acknowledge that your wife felt professionally embarrassed by what you did?
> 
> If you can, perhaps she can acknowledge that you feel emasculated by her paying the bill.


We're past that. I acknowledged that to her when we discussed it the day it happened. She on the other hand stood her ground and the best I could get out of her was to commit to not showing disunity to anyone in the future. 

I'm piecing together a very complex puzzle right now, and this incident is simply a piece of it. I was curious to know if I was reading more in to it than necessary. I've gotten my answer.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> And as a small business owner, people are ALWAYS trying to negotiate with me for a "better" price for our services. It doesn't offend me in the least.


Doesn't offend me in the least either when I'm negotiating a price up front for services. 

Once I provide those services in good faith for a price you agreed to pay; I am offended if you come back and try to renegotiate.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

norajane said:


> Do you negotiate _after _you've already agreed to pay a specific price, started paying the agreed upon price, and then didn't pay anything for 6 months?


We have a very different opinion on this.

The dentist's office DROPPED THE BALL by not getting in touch with OP to "correct" the expired debit card.

IMHO, at that point, THEY (dentist) should have apologized for not picking up THEIR error sooner. This is not a rare occurrence. Debit/Credit cards expire all the time. At this point, they should be HAPPY to settle up. They had not received a DIME in 6 months. Sounds like their accountant/bookkeeper was sleeping on the job. Whose fault is that? Certainly not OP's.

They seriously need to hire a new bookkeeper.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> BetrayedDad said:
> 
> 
> > I've negotiated medical expenses, suits, cars, houses, salary, etc. just about everything outside of a grocery store, restaurant or a competitive retail store. *You're a fool if you offer to pay sticker for anything. *What does it hurt to ask? Worse case they say no. Who cares??? They still want your money.
> ...


Had the dentist realized I had more teeth and 3 other members of my family who also have teeth, maybe he would have reconsidered. Now, thanks to the drama my wife created, we won't go back to him. 

Life is about risk vs reward. He lost thousands of dollars in the future in order to get the $800 he thought he deserves. That was his choice to make. But no way am I not going to at least try to bargain, especially with a high end dentist that doesn't accept insurance.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

Shake_It_Up said:


> But no way am I not going to at least try to bargain, especially with a high end dentist that doesn't accept insurance.


If this is the way you feel why did you not try to negotiate the price before you had the work done?


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## Midlifeturmoil (Dec 30, 2013)

Did she disrespect you? Yes
Should she have communicated with you before taking action? Yes
Did you deserve respect? No
Paying the full $2000 immediately upon discovery that your account was 6 months behind is respectful. Trying to take advantage of the fact that your family mistake lead to a breach of contract would gain you respect with no one. Being slimy can save money at times. It will not earn you respect. If I were your son and knew that you liked to try to weasel out of your "word" to save a little money, I would be crushed and highly disappointed. 

Matters not that this is a potential client of your wife's or the family dentist. 

Being intimidating is impressive to you. It gains you no respect with anyone.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Lila said:


> Your example is wonderful! It shows that people should negotiate the price of a service/item BEFORE it's rendered..


Nope... nope nope nope!

Once the dentist's office dropped the ball on COLLECTING the original agreed upon fee, all bets are off.

A WHOLE NEW negotiation. Actually, OP thought the money (which he budgeted for) was being taken out ALL ALONG.

Now, because THEY FAILED TO DO THEIR JOB, OP may not have the cash readily available. Don't forget, he thought it was coming out all along. Honestly... who checks to see if creditors are doing their job? 

Due diligence? OP should have known? Sure, but some folks (myself included) don't scour every transaction.

Slack? Maybe. But I usually trust that people will do what they SAY.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> We have a very different opinion on this.
> 
> The dentist's office DROPPED THE BALL by not getting in touch with OP to "correct" the expired debit card.
> 
> ...


I had that exact conversation with them on the phone. 

If I handled the finances at home, I would have noticed the payments not coming out of our account. My wife handles everything. She obviously wasn't as concerned about her reputation when the payments weren't being made, but God forbid I offer a settlement when she informs me that she had dropped the ball, along with the dentist not doing his part to collect his money. I even remember asking the dentist "why didn't you just call us if you knew the card had expired". He said "I didn't want to pressure you". Had I not called them, I really wonder how long they would have gone without picking up the phone.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

Midlifeturmoil said:


> Did she disrespect you? Yes
> Should she have communicated with you before taking action? Yes
> Did you deserve respect? No
> Paying the full $2000 immediately upon discovery that your account was 6 months behind is respectful. Trying to take advantage of the fact that your family mistake lead to a breach of contract would gain you respect with no one. Being slimy can save money at times. It will not earn you respect. If I were your son and knew that you liked to try to weasel out of your "word" to save a little money, I would be crushed and highly disappointed.
> ...


First of all, my son has no clue any of this happened. What my wife has shown him over the years is that when she needs a difficult situation to be dealt with, that she may not have the backbone to handle, she asks me to help. I'd assume that's common between men and women. I don't try to be intimidating. It's a weird part of my personality. I honestly don't even understand why people see me that way because I'm pretty much a teddy bear. But I would think most women would use the strength of a man in situations where it's necessary. For example, when the neighbors are having a party that lasts until 2am, she doesn't go knock on the door and politely ask them to quiet down. She asks me to do that. She uses my strength to her advantage and I don't see a problem with that.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

It seems this thread is stuck on looking at the tree and missing the forest altogether.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

Lila said:


> I'm not going to argue with you regarding who's responsibility it was to collect the fee...that's not what this thread is about. If you'd like to start a new thread to discuss due diligence and torte law, I'd be happy to participate.


We got off topic a loooooonnnng time ago. In fact, I tried to get us back on course early on, but here we are, discussing everything other than the original question. Thankfully, I got the answers I needed, so we can all go to another thread now and explain to others why water isn't really wet.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

cons said:


> It seems this thread is stuck on looking at the tree and missing the forest altogether.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

As more details are coming through, I think this is a case where more than one person dropped the ball. The OP's wife handles all of the finances, she should've noticed the $200 wasn't coming out & immediately inquired. The dentist's office dropped the ball by not notifying the OP of the expired card; the excuse of "I didn't want to pressure you" was total BS. Then there's the OP whose wife told him to "handle it", which he did in his own way. The wife never told him to handle it in a specific way.

Now you have an embarrassed wife who is in damage control mode. Instead of talking it over with the OP & figure out a way to mend the business relationship....she goes behind his back to fix the situation & ends up making her husband look like a dolt.

I think this is one of those situations where it wasn't handled _that_ bad by the OP, but better communication by ALL parties (including the dentist) could've avoided all of this. This is a good lesson on how the breakdown of communication can cause a much bigger situation. I hope both you & your wife aren't as angry with each other now, so you both can learn from this.


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## Midlifeturmoil (Dec 30, 2013)

Shake_It_Up said:


> We got off topic a loooooonnnng time ago. In fact, I tried to get us back on course early on, but here we are, discussing everything other than the original question. Thankfully, I got the answers I needed, so we can all go to another thread now and explain to others why water isn't really wet.


For the most part, the replies have been about respect, your relationship with your wife, a dentist and finances...which were all part of the original question.

Please consider the disconnection between your interpretation of your wife's instruction to "take care of this" and her reaction to what you did.

What you have implied of your wife's intent is something like: "Dear intimidating husband, I just discovered that we have defaulted on the monthly dentist bill for 6 months now because one of us gave the dentist office a canceled, inactive card number. And guess what? They billed us for the default amount! How dare they! No interest, no late payment fees, no threats to turn us over to a collection agency, no intimidating phone calls. But a bill! For the exact amount we are overdue! How dare they be so patient, ... and then BILL US?! Now then, this creates an opportunity for you to try to cheapen this commitment that our family made to him by around $800...of his money...if you get my drift. But you know, if he complains, then go ahead and pay it. Now, go do your thing!"

"Oh, and dear, when the dust settles on this, I want our family reputation, our family respect, and my potential business prospects to be completely intact!" 

Rather, her reaction says that her intent was for you to pay the bill, get it caught up, apologize for the oversight...or whatever needs to be done to restore our family "respect".

Related to your other comments about wife using you for strength when strength is needed. Absolutely. Standing up for yourself and your family, and standing up for what is right when the situation calls for it...whether you are intimidating or not...is respectful and manly. If she uses you to weasel, she is weaseling and using you. Hopefully this is not the case.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Shake_It_Up said:


> We got off topic a loooooonnnng time ago. In fact, I tried to get us back on course early on, but here we are, discussing everything other than the original question. Thankfully, I got the answers I needed, so we can all go to another thread now and explain to others why water isn't really wet.


Is this officially more painful than the root canal?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Shake_It_Up said:


> First of all, my son has no clue any of this happened. What my wife has shown him over the years is that when she needs a difficult situation to be dealt with, that she may not have the backbone to handle, she asks me to help. I'd *assume *that's common between men and women.


 :slap:


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

Midlifeturmoil said:


> For the most part, the replies have been about respect, your relationship with your wife, a dentist and finances...which were all part of the original question.
> 
> Please consider the disconnection between your interpretation of your wife's instruction to "take care of this" and her reaction to what you did.
> 
> ...


You're lost in space. I don't even have time to address your inaccuracies.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

Feel free to discuss among yourselves. I've gotten what I needed here, so I'll move along. Thanks to everyone for your input.


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## Tubbalard (Feb 8, 2015)

Shake_It_Up said:


> LOL!!! That makes no sense... If I say "Hey Big Paulie, I'm good for the money. Always have been. In fact, I didn't know my wife hadn't been paying you. She always pays the bills and this is news to me. I'm sorry for the confusion. I can keep paying you $100 every month for the next 20 months, but I've got $1,200 in a shoe box in the attic and if you want that right now to call it done, I'll gladly do that. Is that acceptable?" I'm not making him "an offer he can't refuse". But Big Paulie can decide which direction he wants to go, and I'm good with either.....
> 
> Now, in the real "Big Paulie" world, he may say "bring me the $1,200 by tomorrow and then I'll let you pay off the other $800 over 8 months". And in the real "Big Paulie" world there's no way I want him to know I have a shoe box full of cash. But my dentist isn't Big Paulie.
> 
> And since you've "never seen this", I'll tell you that it is actually pretty common with medical doctors and hospitals. People do it every day to protect their credit. You'd be surprised how little a hospital will accept in a 1 time payment just to keep from taking you to collections. My offer of 60% was very generous in comparison to what a lot of doctors will accept.


Lmao...How was your offer of 60% of the outstanding balance a "generous" offer? What world do you live in? There was NOTHING "generous" about your offer. You tried to weasel your way through this particular situation. Services was already rendered. Offering 60 cents on the dollar on an agreed amount after the fact is shady behavior. You treated the dentist like a middle eastern swap meet. As my faux story about Big Paulie. He wouldn't even let you live for disrespecting him like that. In the real world. Whether you have a stash of cash or not. He has all necessary info on you. Whether you want him to know or not.

And let's be honest when you mention "respect'". What you're really is saying is... "A woman(wife) should stay in her place". You felt disrespected by your wife, because she cleaned up your mess. You hate the fact that a woman/female/lady/girl butted in handled a situation between two men. But you failed to respect her, by not having the foresight to realize that you put her future business ventures in jeopardy. You were only looking out for yourself. You feel as though your wife should blindly stand by you because she's your wife, no matter how wrong you are. You're not fooling anybody.

A person can only feel like a "dolt" if they internally themselves feel like a dolt. Your wife didn't make you feel this way. You only felt this way, perhaps of some latent embarrassment of how you conducted business.

You also need to realize, men and women usually have different emotional perspectives on finances. Ask yourself, why did your wife freak out? My bet is you shook her internal core. That need for stabilization is key for women. Once you start playing fast and loose with finances and end up in precarious situations, it can shake up a foundation.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> I wonder how many of you would feel the same way if Shake was buddies with the dentist and the wife was having a tiff with said dentist and Shake started apologizing to his friend for his wife's "irrational" behavior without her permission or consulting her.
> 
> The dentist is a POTENTIAL client. She doesn't even have any actual business with him. That's worth making your husband look like a fool? He was paying the dentist as they both agreed. Why did she need to butt in AFTER the matter was resolved between them?
> 
> She basically renegotiated an already settled contract between the two of them with 0% interest that she wasn't even a party too. The only thing she succeeded in doing was emasculating her husband. It may be hard for some of you to understand but that matters to a man as much as feeling beautiful matters to a woman.


He was not paying the dentist as agreed. It had been 6 months since they have been paid a penny. The OP is lucky that the dentist is did not send the bill to a collection agency. That is what many would have done. It was OP's credit card? It was his responsibility to inform every one who collects automatically from that card in a timely manner that there was a is a new number.

The dentist had every legal right to put his account in collections.

His asking to reduce the $2000 to $1200 is just wrong. He agreed to a price at the time of service. That's what he needs to pay. I have had customers try to renegotiate fees after the fact with me. Guess what I do.. I drop them. Who wants to deal with someone who lies about their intent to pay?

On the topic of whether or not his wife showed him disrespect... he showed her disrespect first by the way he handled this account. Have no doubt that the professional community is small. Chances are very high that the fact that the OP does not pay his bills in a timely manner is well know now.

Yes I understand that the OP did not pay attention and thus the card expired. But that's his problem. It's not the problem of the dentist who did the work for an agreed upon fee.


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## Gonecrazy (Oct 12, 2014)

To answer your question. I too would be annoyed and believe that married couples should always be on a united front in front of others, all others. Even if you think the other is wrong, you talk about it in private. In saying that I can understand her actions.

I don't know what your wife expects to gain from this exchange, but it must be good to spend so much money. 

You should have kept a closer eye on your fiances. Your bank should have send you a letter notifying you of the closing account. Your dentist should have sent notification of a nil payment. You should have apologized for the problem and not tried to rip him/her off essentially giving yourself a bad credit rating in the dentists eyes, which is contradictory to what your wife was trying to achieve. And finely, your wife should have discussed the matter properly and not apologized on your behalf.

She acted to salvage what ever her business mission was, and put your opinions second. I'd be pissed.

That's my 2 and a half cents.
Gonecrazy


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