# I told him I wanted a divorce, and then...



## Cup of Tea

I had it all planned out: the girls were loaded up, the car was running, and I asked him to talk. I blurted out that I wanted a divorce, that he made me incredibly depressed, and that my heart and mind were just so tired of his sh**. I told him we'd talk the next day when I got back, and I wanted him to just absorb that it's over, and promised to be fair. Then I got in my car, blocked his number, and hit the freeway doing 80.
.
The girls and I had a great time at my dad's.
.
When we got home, we talked and for the first time in years, I had his full attention. He has *0* clue I was so unhappy.
.
He just thought I was mad about something.
.
For a year.
.
Idiot.
.
I skimmed the surface and told him how much it hurt that I just wanted him all to myself on our 9th anniversary (he brought his son along and ignored me the whole day), and how devastated I was when he yelled me on our 10th when all I wanted was to reconnect. I told him about how I absolutely cannot tell him how I feel because of reactions I get (pouting, pity parties, deflection, 'forgetting,' or property damage), so I have zero incentive to communicate. So all of those emotions that should be shared between husband and a wife, I buried. And they festered like a cancer and made me incredibly depressed.
.
He listened. Then bawled. Big racking sobs. Genuine ugly crying.
.
He begged for the chance to win me back. I agreed to at least not do anything until after New Years. And he wants to go to counseling which I agreed to.
Whatever it takes, he says. 
He has been extremely attentive and loving: sending my favorite flowers to my work, and more waiting for me when I got home. He has cleaned almost every day, and cooked more than I have. He is falling all over himself to get back into my favor. He offered to cancel a hunting trip he's been planning all year and never go fishing again if it meant keeping me. I made him go on his trip and helped him cut/wrap his deer.
Although this display is wonderful, I find I'm very cold-hearted. I does make me chuckle to listen to him struggle with everyday chores. He even came home early from hunting to do Halloween..
I'm on the hunt for a counselor who takes our insurance, and my personal counselor advised me to look for a male, as guys can feel ganged up on with a female. It might help melt my heart, or it might give him closure as to why I left the marriage. Right now the deep part of me that gives love is very worn, and I hope isn't out of service permanently. There is so much hurt I'm carrying and its awful heavy.
For now though, I have a list of properties saved on Zillow, and have my eye on a few more that are banked or estate owned, but not on the market.
Thanks for asking about me on my older posts. I've been meaning to post, but always seem to get interupted!
Thanks for listening. I'll keep posting..


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## Mr.Married

Keep following your head and don’t be overcome by your heart. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders. As a man myself I can say old patterns are hard to break. He is doing the pony show right now. Human nature will have him slide back to some of his old ways. Try to understand what exactly it is that you can tolerate and those things that you can not..... and then stick to it.

Cute cat ears 😁


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## Diana7

With men you do need to spell things out. You cant expect them to read your mind, so if you were unhappy for a year and yet you didnt sit him down and clearly communicate how you felt, how was he supposed to know?


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## Mr. Nail

I've got to admit I'm surprised he decided to fight for it. It doesn't strike me as the response of a man who would pay his mom to wash his shorts.


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## Openminded

Spouses rarely want a divorce. They just want to do what they want to do when they want to do it. Temporary change is easy. But permanent change is not. It takes a lot of time and energy and effort. It’s really hard and few manage to do it. Hopefully, he will.


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## SunCMars

His man-bubble has popped.

Not knowing, I would tend to blame much of this on his upbringing.

Good luck!


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## Cup of Tea

Diana7 said:


> With men you do need to spell things out. You cant expect them to read your mind, so if you were unhappy for a year and yet you didnt sit him down and clearly communicate how you felt, how was he supposed to know?


Because communicating with him was near impossible. Any negative emotion I would share, even if in a calm voice, I would recieve negativity back 10-fold. Or he would just ignore me or 'forget' what I say.


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## Cup of Tea

SunCMars said:


> His man-bubble has popped.
> 
> Not knowing, I would tend to blame much of this on his upbringing.
> 
> Good luck!


Its a factor for sure. But she's been warning him for years that I'm going to leave him.


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## VladDracul

Nine times out of ten, its the woman that files. Cup of Tea, you don't happen to have a replacement in mind, do you? May as well get that cleared up right away.


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## StarFires

Ever hear of the *Walk Away Wife Syndrome*? It's who you have become and is really quite common for women when their husbands ignore, minimize, become aggressive if not violent, and generally make enemies of their wife. That's what prompted Master of Social Work and relationship therapist Micheel Weiner-Davis to coin "Walk Away Wife" - it really is a syndrome.

Usually, the wife spends a lot of time trying to get her husband to be the kind of man/husband she needs him to be. After years of going unheard and unsuccessful, she finally feels drained, unloved and not cared about, and then gives up. And he's shocked to learn that she was unhappy despite her numerous attempts to tell him.

The difference in what you're telling us though is that you haven't expressed yourself to him. I understand your reasons for not talking about it but because of that, your husband genuinely is surprised. Even though he employed his various tactics of shutting you down, you were also responsible for the marriage. He's conflict-avoidant, and you didn't stand up and make yourself heard. So it seems like you failed him as much as he failed you. And this is also a syndrome. We women tend to expect men to read our minds, which is the reason it surprises you that he only thought you were angry about something....for the past year. You expect him to know the problem is deeper than that, but it's unfair to expect him to know. You can't conjure a man in your head who knows your thoughts, how you feel, and why you think and feel that way and then compare him to the man you married. They are not one in the same. 

As a woman, I know how you feel. It all should be so obvious - his thoughtlessness, his disrespect, his carelessness, and so on. He should know what he's done to you. He should know how he has hurt you. He should know why you're angry and resentful. But believe him when he says he doesn't know because he doesn't. Steve Harvey spent a lot of years through his books and his daytime TV show trying to help women understand men and trying to help men understand their role as husbands. To quote Steve Harvey "Men are stupid" (maybe he said "dumb" and maybe he said both at different times since he said it so often). What you need to understand is that the phrase "men are from mars and women are from venus" (by a different author) obviously isn't a literal statement but is very true in terms of our differences. Your husband is the typical husband (again a syndrome since it is so common), and you are the typical wife (also a syndrome since wives typically expect their husband to read their mind). You're both so typical that even if you had been expressing yourself to him, I really expect the end result would be the same. You would still be the walk-away wife now.

But there remains that tidbit of doubt since you never told him. Your silence means there's nothing wrong. Do you get that? That's the part you are responsible for. That's the part you have to own up to, rather than tearing him apart with the weight of full responsibility for the destruction of the marriage and doing last-minute cartwheels and backward flip flops to save it. You've dumped it all on his head, but you owe him the confession of your own failure. And you have to do so without thinking your reasons for not talking to him outweigh the fact that you didn't talk. The one thing that could have/might have made all the difference in the world is yours to regret.

So you need to relieve that man of this heavy burden you placed on his shoulders. Aside from you taking responsibility for your own part in the breakdown of your marriage, another fact is that he can't possibly live up to what he has started. There's no way he can maintain this persona of Mr. Perfect Husband status forever. Every man in his shoes does this routine when they learn they have something to lose for their actions and behavior. Breakup and divorce come as a shock and scares people, so they cry boatloads of tears, beg for another chance, do everything they know they should have been doing, and make all kinds of promises they're never going to keep in order to prove they can change, but that normally lasts between 3 weeks and 3 months. The point is, it never lasts. And right now, he has a little more time for good behavior since you agreed not to do anything until after New Years. So you probably have until around March for the expected return of Mr. Undesirable. That silly promise to never go fishing again will soon turn into "Honey, Bob asked me to go fishing with him next Saturday. You mind if I go?" Getting your permission isn't the same as breaking his promise. You're not supposed to know that. And then, if you say no, he will extol his wonderfulness to show how devoted he's been and now deserves some guy time. It will never end because, like all the others, it was an unrealistic promise to begin with.

Your therapist was right about finding a male counselor so your husband doesn't feel ganged up on, but there also exists the problem of some therapists, male and female, harboring an agenda. As much as men feel ganged up on with a female therapist, I've also heard of male therapists making women feel they can't be right about anything and their feelings are unfounded as if it's all just her imagination or she's wrong to expect her husband to act like a husband. While it is perfectly normal to point out each party's shortcomings and each person's contribution to the breakdown of their marriage as I have done here, it's not okay for either party to feel ganged up on or to feel like they have no right to their feelings. It's hard to find a good therapist and not uncommon for a couple to go through a few before they find a good fit. So I suggest your criteria not be limited to insurance acceptance but to also interview several before choosing. Find out their position on the specific problems you're having and how they approach the two parties when addressing those specific problems in helping them to overcome. And then pray your choice works out well for your marriage and your mental health remains intact. LOL

Honestly, before going to a therapist, I suggest you tackle this yourselves. With the right tools, the right frame of mind, and honest/devoted effort, you can both learn to become a better husband and better wife and have a better marriage. There are numerous articles and books on the internet and many therapists, such as Michele Weiner-Davis at Divorce Busting that I linked above, also offer telephone coaching though I don't know if they accept insurance. My favorite website is MarriageBuilders.com because Dr. Harley offers books, podcasts, and telephone coaching like many others, but he also offers his site full of very helpful articles absolutely free, and his articles address practically everything under the sun. He doesn't have anything specific to the walk-away wife (that was Weiner-Davis' phrase), but his articles are relevant and aimed at addressing those same types of problems between husbands and wives. Like I said, it's all so typical. I like to call his website the do-it-yourself marriage counseling site because everything a couple needs is right there. His book "His Needs, Her Needs" is very popular and people say it is helpful.

This is what I suggest:

First, decide if you want the marriage and want to participate in saving it. If you do, then you have to soften your heart and apologize to your husband for your own contribution and be willing to forgive him for his. You don't have to dismiss his actions or behavior, but let him know you expect him to listen when you need to express yourself. There are articles to help you learn how to complain and articles to help him learn how to listen, and the first thing he needs to hear is that you expect him to actively participate in repairing - and then maintaining - your marriage.

The article suggestions to follow are a great way for the two of you to spend quality time together. But whether you read them together or separately, I suggest reading them in order as listed below, and they have to be scheduled (and required) reading - only one or two per week. At the end of each week, schedule a time for you both to sit down together and discuss the article(s) you read that week and how you will incorporate the principles and concepts into your daily lives. Then the following week, review progress with open and honest discussion. Refrain from criticizing but don't be afraid to express any displeasure. You will each learn you can always do better and should strive to do so.

1. You both read *How To Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts And Restore Love*

2. You both read *Peace And Good Will: Essential For Effective Conflict Resolution*

3. You both read *The Policy of Joint Agreement*

4. You both read *How To Negotiate When No One Wants To Raise The Issue*

4. You both read *Why Women Leave Men*
In this article and a couple others, Dr. Harley mentions learning that neglect is the number reason that women file for divorce. This article will help you both to understand why you arrived at wanting a divorce and help you both overcome those types of problems.

5. You read *How To Complain In Marriage*

6. Your husband read *How To Make Your Wife Happy*

7. You both read *The Policy of Undivided Attention*

8. Move on now to you both reading Dr. Harley's *Basic Concepts* and follow the order of articles in the right side ribbon. Also, do any questionnaires that the articles provide. Discuss your answers in your weekly review sessions.

There should be some major changes going on in your marriage after this program. If, however, after months of reading these articles and applying their concepts (or not applying them) you don't observe satisfactory progress and find yourselves still in need of marriage counseling, Dr. Harley offers some tips in selecting a therapist for your needs in his article *How to Find A Good Marriage Counselor*. Truly though, if his site doesn't work for you, I really don't know how a counselor can because the site contains everything that a counselor should offer but not all of them do.


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## MattMatt

Some men and women never get it, they screw up their relationship but understand too late what they did that ruined everything.


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## SunCMars

In some cases, the village does raise the child.
Looking at some villages, here, and around the world, I agree with this notion.

Being selfish, often arises from a selfish upbringing, and having seen selfish actions.
Selfishness, and being oblivious to others needs can be an innate trait.

In many villages, women are thought to be cooks, baby raisers, and sex providers.
And, those women are the person that 'takes' their paycheck!

Many men go along with this notion somewhat kindly, or not so, at all.

The street in that photo remind me of West Virginia. 
Then again, could be any hilly state.


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## Blondilocks

Your daughter is adorable. All I'll say is I wouldn't be seen in public with a guy dressed like that. Take a good look at that picture. Is this the guy you want to stay married to?

Don't accept flack for not "making" him hear you. He did everything in his power to not hear except put an actual muzzle on you. His tactics to shut you up accomplished that. He wouldn't even listen to his mom telling him that you would leave him. How arrogant is that?

Right now, he's in good-boy mode because he doesn't want another divorce. It won't last.

The kicker is: 


Cup of Tea said:


> He has *0* clue I was so unhappy.
> .
> He just thought I was mad about something.
> .
> For a year.


And to that I say - BULLSPIT! Unless, he actually is the dumbest guy on the planet.
Again, do you really want to be married to this guy?


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## Andy1001

@Cup of Tea on your very first post you talked about how your husband had finally repaired the water spigots in your garden. You had been asking him for two years to fix them but until he needed water for his new garden project he wouldn’t fix it. 
You then wrote that he expects a “ monument to be built in his honor” for finally getting off his ass. 
You need to be very careful that this change of behavior will last and isn’t just him trying to placate you. 
By the way your daughter needs to tie her laces before she trips🤕.


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## Rowan

StarFires said:


> Ever hear of the *Walk Away Wife Syndrome*? It's who you have become and is really quite common for women when their husbands ignore, minimize, become aggressive if not violent, and generally make enemies of their wife. That's what prompted Master of Social Work and relationship therapist Micheel Weiner-Davis to coin "Walk Away Wife" - it really is a syndrome.
> 
> Usually, the wife spends a lot of time trying to get her husband to be the kind of man/husband she needs him to be. After years of going unheard and unsuccessful, she finally feels drained, unloved and not cared about, and then gives up. And he's shocked to learn that she was unhappy despite her numerous attempts to tell him.
> 
> The difference in what you're telling us though is that you haven't expressed yourself to him. I understand your reasons for not talking about it but because of that, your husband genuinely is surprised. Even though he employed his various tactics of shutting you down, you were also responsible for the marriage. He's conflict-avoidant, and you didn't stand up and make yourself heard. So it seems like you failed him as much as he failed you. And this is also a syndrome. We women tend to expect men to read our minds, which is the reason it surprises you that he only thought you were angry about something....for the past year. You expect him to know the problem is deeper than that, but it's unfair to expect him to know. You can't conjure a man in your head who knows your thoughts, how you feel, and why you think and feel that way and then compare him to the man you married. They are not one in the same.
> 
> As a woman, I know how you feel. It all should be so obvious - his thoughtlessness, his disrespect, his carelessness, and so on. He should know what he's done to you. He should know how he has hurt you. He should know why you're angry and resentful. But believe him when he says he doesn't know because he doesn't. Steve Harvey spent a lot of years through his books and his daytime TV show trying to help women understand men and trying to help men understand their role as husbands. To quote Steve Harvey "Men are stupid" (maybe he said "dumb" and maybe he said both at different times since he said it so often). What you need to understand is that the phrase "men are from mars and women are from venus" (by a different author) obviously isn't a literal statement but is very true in terms of our differences. Your husband is the typical husband (again a syndrome since it is so common), and you are the typical wife (also a syndrome since wives typically expect their husband to read their mind). You're both so typical that even if you had been expressing yourself to him, I really expect the end result would be the same. You would still be the walk-away wife now.
> 
> But there remains that tidbit of doubt since you never told him. Your silence means there's nothing wrong. Do you get that? That's the part you are responsible for. That's the part you have to own up to, rather than tearing him apart with the weight of full responsibility for the destruction of the marriage and doing last-minute cartwheels and backward flip flops to save it. You've dumped it all on his head, but you owe him the confession of your own failure. And you have to do so without thinking your reasons for not talking to him outweigh the fact that you didn't talk. The one thing that could have/might have made all the difference in the world is yours to regret.
> 
> So you need to relieve that man of this heavy burden you placed on his shoulders. Aside from you taking responsibility for your own part in the breakdown of your marriage, another fact is that he can't possibly live up to what he has started. There's no way he can maintain this persona of Mr. Perfect Husband status forever. Every man in his shoes does this routine when they learn they have something to lose for their actions and behavior. Breakup and divorce come as a shock and scares people, so they cry boatloads of tears, beg for another chance, do everything they know they should have been doing, and make all kinds of promises they're never going to keep in order to prove they can change, but that normally lasts between 3 weeks and 3 months. The point is, it never lasts. And right now, he has a little more time for good behavior since you agreed not to do anything until after New Years. So you probably have until around March for the expected return of Mr. Undesirable. That silly promise to never go fishing again will soon turn into "Honey, Bob asked me to go fishing with him next Saturday. You mind if I go?" Getting your permission isn't the same as breaking his promise. You're not supposed to know that. And then, if you say no, he will extol his wonderfulness to show how devoted he's been and now deserves some guy time. It will never end because, like all the others, it was an unrealistic promise to begin with.
> 
> Your therapist was right about finding a male counselor so your husband doesn't feel ganged up on, but there also exists the problem of some therapists, male and female, harboring an agenda. As much as men feel ganged up on with a female therapist, I've also heard of male therapists making women feel they can't be right about anything and their feelings are unfounded as if it's all just her imagination or she's wrong to expect her husband to act like a husband. While it is perfectly normal to point out each party's shortcomings and each person's contribution to the breakdown of their marriage as I have done here, it's not okay for either party to feel ganged up on or to feel like they have no right to their feelings. It's hard to find a good therapist and not uncommon for a couple to go through a few before they find a good fit. So I suggest your criteria not be limited to insurance acceptance but to also interview several before choosing. Find out their position on the specific problems you're having and how they approach the two parties when addressing those specific problems in helping them to overcome. And then pray your choice works out well for your marriage and your mental health remains intact. LOL
> 
> Honestly, before going to a therapist, I suggest you tackle this yourselves. With the right tools, the right frame of mind, and honest/devoted effort, you can both learn to become a better husband and better wife and have a better marriage. There are numerous articles and books on the internet and many therapists, such as Michele Weiner-Davis at Divorce Busting that I linked above, also offer telephone coaching though I don't know if they accept insurance. My favorite website is MarriageBuilders.com because Dr. Harley offers books, podcasts, and telephone coaching like many others, but he also offers his site full of very helpful articles absolutely free, and his articles address practically everything under the sun. He doesn't have anything specific to the walk-away wife (that was Weiner-Davis' phrase), but his articles are relevant and aimed at addressing those same types of problems between husbands and wives. Like I said, it's all so typical. I like to call his website the do-it-yourself marriage counseling site because everything a couple needs is right there. His book "His Needs, Her Needs" is very popular and people say it is helpful.
> 
> This is what I suggest:
> 
> First, decide if you want the marriage and want to participate in saving it. If you do, then you have to soften your heart and apologize to your husband for your own contribution and be willing to forgive him for his. You don't have to dismiss his actions or behavior, but let him know you expect him to listen when you need to express yourself. There are articles to help you learn how to complain and articles to help him learn how to listen, and the first thing he needs to hear is that you expect him to actively participate in repairing - and then maintaining - your marriage.
> 
> The article suggestions to follow are a great way for the two of you to spend quality time together. But whether you read them together or separately, I suggest reading them in order as listed below, and they have to be scheduled (and required) reading - only one or two per week. At the end of each week, schedule a time for you both to sit down together and discuss the article(s) you read that week and how you will incorporate the principles and concepts into your daily lives. Then the following week, review progress with open and honest discussion. Refrain from criticizing but don't be afraid to express any displeasure. You will each learn you can always do better and should strive to do so.
> 
> 1. You both read *How To Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts And Restore Love*
> 
> 2. You both read *Peace And Good Will: Essential For Effective Conflict Resolution*
> 
> 3. You both read *The Policy of Joint Agreement*
> 
> 4. You both read *How To Negotiate When No One Wants To Raise The Issue*
> 
> 4. You both read *Why Women Leave Men*
> In this article and a couple others, Dr. Harley mentions learning that neglect is the number reason that women file for divorce. This article will help you both to understand why you arrived at wanting a divorce and help you both overcome those types of problems.
> 
> 5. You read *How To Complain In Marriage*
> 
> 6. Your husband read *How To Make Your Wife Happy*
> 
> 7. You both read *The Policy of Undivided Attention*
> 
> 8. Move on now to you both reading Dr. Harley's *Basic Concepts* and follow the order of articles in the right side ribbon. Also, do any questionnaires that the articles provide. Discuss your answers in your weekly review sessions.
> 
> There should be some major changes going on in your marriage after this program. If, however, after months of reading these articles and applying their concepts (or not applying them) you don't observe satisfactory progress and find yourselves still in need of marriage counseling, Dr. Harley offers some tips in selecting a therapist for your needs in his article *How to Find A Good Marriage Counselor*. Truly though, if his site doesn't work for you, I really don't know how a counselor can because the site contains everything that a counselor should offer but not all of them do.


While I agree with much of this, and HIGHLY recommend Dr. Harley's articles and books, I do think you need to be wary of your husband's current hoop-jumping. I do suggest going through the articles posted above with your husband. But. But... Make sure you're actually going through them _with_ him, and that he's actually participating in doing the real work to build a better marriage with you. 

Far too many people claim to be willing to do anything to keep their marriage. But what that really translates to far too often, is that they're willing to _say_ anything. They're willing to make grand gestures in the short term - provided you're appropriately appreciative and recognize their supreme martyrdom, of course - while they wait for you to stop "being mad" so things can go back to normal. But they're often not really interested in doing the hard work, over the long haul, to change themselves and fundamentally alter the old marriage into something new. They want to offer flowers, jewelry, lots of sex, the "good boy/girl" routine. But they don't want to actually do the reading and discussion, have the honest and hard conversations, make the real quality time, consistently convey the consideration and respect, and all the other things that it would take to make _real_ change in the marriage relationship over the long term. 

So, approach this with a can-do attitude and be willing to really do the work. Just be sure you're aware of the reality of the level of effort your husband is actually putting in to also making meaningful change.


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## DownByTheRiver

I wouldn't expect permanent change. Best case is he keeps up helping with chores, but he's not going to change his basic personality of ignoring you because that's how he is. Good luck.


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## Blondilocks

LOL. Eagle Eye strikes again. _But, her laces aren't long enough to tie._


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## Diana7

Blondilocks said:


> LOL. Eagle Eye strikes again. _But, her laces aren't long enough to tie._


They may be if they were pulled up tighter?


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## Andy1001

Blondilocks said:


> LOL. Eagle Eye strikes again. _But, her laces aren't long enough to tie._


Her laces are plenty long to be tied. 
Did you even notice the hitchhiker?


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## StarFires

This article "*Why Men Ignore Their Wives*" is about an experimental study conducted by a team of two professors of marketing and psychology at Duke University to determine if the phenomenon called "reactance" (the tendency to do the exact opposite of what's requested by a loved one or boss) is on a conscious or subconscious level. The study was prompted by the wife of the team, Professor Tanya Chartrand, because her husband, Professor Gavan Fitzsimons, is exactly like your husband - always ignoring his wife and reacting to her in opposite ways.

The study found, according to Professor Chartrand, that "People with a tendency toward reactance may nonconsciously and quite unintentionally act in a counterproductive manner simply because they are trying to resist someone else's encroachment on their freedom."

So, the result of the study is that the "reactance" phenomenon is a subconscious thing, which explains why it's so common. No matter how utterly dumb your husband may seem to others, do you now see how typical he is? How common your situation is? Again, it really is a syndrome.

And get this.....
"Chartrand said her husband 'should now be better equipped to suppress his reactant tendencies.' But Fitzsimons said the results 'suggest that reactance to significant others is so automatic that I can't possibly be expected to control it if I don't even know it's happening."

They couldn't even agree on what the results mean.

Yes, Cup of Tea, as Rowan indicated you should continually take the temperature of your marriage by monitoring his level of participation and dedication. Just know that the propensity of this board is to convince people to end their marriage, so consider that when reading negative responses you received in this and your other threads. The intent of the articles I suggested and the program you guys should implement was to help refocus your attention on each other and help you both learn and understand what marriage means and the work you have to put into it. Everybody always says things like "marriage takes work," and many end up saying "I tried everything," but they rely solely on their own devices and limited knowledge. Few people know what that work really is and what it involves. You've endured your husband getting on your nerves for 10 years, so I don't blame you if you're ready to just end it and walk away. But now you know the real work that is required and might as well direct your efforts toward saving your marriage and building a better one. If he doesn't bother to apply himself, at least you can say you tried for real and did all there was for you to do.


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## Blondilocks

The "reactance" phenomenon is nothing more than a man's socially ingrained reluctance to be *****-whipped. If a wife says it is sunny out, he is bound by his need to be thought an independent man so he automatically says "no, it isn't". Even if it makes him look like a fool.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Blondilocks said:


> The "reactance" phenomenon is nothing more than a man's socially ingrained reluctance to be ***-whipped. If a wife says it is sunny out, he is bound by his need to be thought an independent man so he automatically says "no, it isn't". Even if it makes him look like a fool.


God, I'm so glad we're past all that, after so long.

Well, mostly.


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## StarFires

Blondilocks said:


> The "reactance" phenomenon is nothing more than a man's socially ingrained reluctance to be ***-whipped. If a wife says it is sunny out, he is bound by his need to be thought an independent man so he automatically says "no, it isn't". Even if it makes him look like a fool.


You make too shallow a point. What you describe actually is a fool. But not every man who ignores his wife acts so foolishly and obstinate as your example. Or maybe some of the guys on the forum who are like that will join in and tell us their motivations.


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## Casual Observer

StarFires said:


> ...The difference in what you're telling us though is that you haven't expressed yourself to him. I understand your reasons for not talking about it but because of that, your husband genuinely is surprised. Even though he employed his various tactics of shutting you down, you were also responsible for the marriage. He's conflict-avoidant, and you didn't stand up and make yourself heard. So it seems like you failed him as much as he failed you. And this is also a syndrome. We women tend to expect men to read our minds, which is the reason it surprises you that he only thought you were angry about something....for the past year. You expect him to know the problem is deeper than that, but it's unfair to expect him to know. You can't conjure a man in your head who knows your thoughts, how you feel, and why you think and feel that way and then compare him to the man you married. They are not one in the same.
> 
> ...But there remains that tidbit of doubt since you never told him. Your silence means there's nothing wrong. Do you get that? That's the part you are responsible for. That's the part you have to own up to, rather than tearing him apart with the weight of full responsibility for the destruction of the marriage and doing last-minute cartwheels and backward flip flops to save it. You've dumped it all on his head, but you owe him the confession of your own failure. And you have to do so without thinking your reasons for not talking to him outweigh the fact that you didn't talk. The one thing that could have/might have made all the difference in the world is yours to regret.
> 
> ...This is what I suggest:
> 
> First, decide if you want the marriage and want to participate in saving it. If you do, then you have to soften your heart and apologize to your husband for your own contribution and be willing to forgive him for his. You don't have to dismiss his actions or behavior, but let him know you expect him to listen when you need to express yourself. There are articles to help you learn how to complain and articles to help him learn how to listen, and the first thing he needs to hear is that you expect him to actively participate in repairing - and then maintaining - your marriage.
> ...


What @StarFires wrote is worth reading in its entirety, not just the snippets I quoted. It requires that one step back a bit and think about their own contribution to their unhappiness with their spouse. In the absence of deal breakers (infidelity etc) it may be the case that someone has given up too easily and helped to create the environment for the spouse's bad behavior.

It's heart breaking to read posts here where one spouse is going to have no clue that something heavy is coming their way. There are exceptions; physical abuse would be one example. But when it's going to be an ambush, it's pretty clear that there's been a voluntary communications breakdown. At the point you give up, you should give in. Confess the seriousness of the problem and plan to move on. Secrets represent an extraordinary use of power & control over the other party in such circumstances. Why sabotage the other person's life as you regain control of your own? I've seen threads where one spouse has been planning their exit for a year, or more, in total secrecy. Again, there could be valid reasons, having to do with safety, maybe financial. 

@StarFires has an awesome post here.


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## Cup of Tea

VladDracul said:


> Nine times out of ten, its the woman that files. Cup of Tea, you don't happen to have a replacement in mind, do you? May as well get that cleared up right away.


I absolutely don't have a replacement in mind. Nobody on the back burner, nor any desire to meet anyone else. I know that's the case in many, many situations, but not mine.
I am a very capable woman who isn't in dire need of a man, nor have I even been viewed as a "damsel in distress."
Excuse me if I sound defensive, but I am so tired of people just expecting me to have someone else lined up, or already trying to set me up with someone. If I go through with a divorce, I have no immediate need for a guy anyway: I know all about mixed gas, oil changes, metric/standard wrenches, drill bits, saws, basic wiring and plumbing, and I work at a facility with a full service machine/welding shop. Toys aren't out of the question either.


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## Cup of Tea

Mr.Married said:


> Keep following your head and don’t be overcome by your heart. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders. As a man myself I can say old patterns are hard to break. He is doing the pony show right now. Human nature will have him slide back to some of his old ways. Try to understand what exactly it is that you can tolerate and those things that you can not..... and then stick to it.
> 
> Cute cat ears 😁


Thanks, Mr. Married. I very much have my walls up as protection from getting hurt again. 
She had a good time with her dad. 😻


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## MJJEAN

StarFires said:


> The study found, according to Professor Chartrand, that "People with a tendency toward reactance may nonconsciously and quite unintentionally act in a counterproductive manner simply because they are trying to resist someone else's encroachment on their freedom."


Cats. Some people are actually cats. Much easier way to explain this phenomenon.


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## Cup of Tea

Blondilocks said:


> Your daughter is adorable. All I'll say is I wouldn't be seen in public with a guy dressed like that. Take a good look at that picture. Is this the guy you want to stay married to?
> 
> Don't accept flack for not "making" him hear you. He did everything in his power to not hear except put an actual muzzle on you. His tactics to shut you up accomplished that. He wouldn't even listen to his mom telling him that you would leave him. How arrogant is that?
> 
> Right now, he's in good-boy mode because he doesn't want another divorce. It won't last.
> 
> The kicker is:
> 
> And to that I say - BULLSPIT! Unless, he actually is the dumbest guy on the planet.
> Again, do you really want to be married to this guy?


Under that pumpkin, she looks just like Dad, half brothers, nephew, and grandma. No switcheroos as the hospital there...
.
As far as dress: that is pretty much standard issue wear in these parts. Most of the county's work force is blue collar: so logging pants, hickory shirts, suspenders, and boots are the norm. And its only 30-50 degrees right now. 
.
I'm a little astounded he was so clueless. And I realized I should have piped up and I did with a very negative reactions. I really wanted to reconnect on our anniversary: to open that dialogue back up, but his stupid butt screwed that all up. And the relationship went south from there. 
.
I am conflicted. I've invested just about my whole adult life to this man. And things were good for years! I can't just forget those years of cuddles, working side-by-side, and actually being able to talk.


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## Cup of Tea

StarFires said:


> Ever hear of the *Walk Away Wife Syndrome*? It's who you have become and is really quite common for women when their husbands ignore, minimize, become aggressive if not violent, and generally make enemies of their wife. That's what prompted Master of Social Work and relationship therapist Micheel Weiner-Davis to coin "Walk Away Wife" - it really is a syndrome.
> 
> Usually, the wife spends a lot of time trying to get her husband to be the kind of man/husband she needs him to be. After years of going unheard and unsuccessful, she finally feels drained, unloved and not cared about, and then gives up. And he's shocked to learn that she was unhappy despite her numerous attempts to tell him.
> 
> The difference in what you're telling us though is that you haven't expressed yourself to him. I understand your reasons for not talking about it but because of that, your husband genuinely is surprised. Even though he employed his various tactics of shutting you down, you were also responsible for the marriage. He's conflict-avoidant, and you didn't stand up and make yourself heard. So it seems like you failed him as much as he failed you. And this is also a syndrome. We women tend to expect men to read our minds, which is the reason it surprises you that he only thought you were angry about something....for the past year. You expect him to know the problem is deeper than that, but it's unfair to expect him to know. You can't conjure a man in your head who knows your thoughts, how you feel, and why you think and feel that way and then compare him to the man you married. They are not one in the same.
> 
> As a woman, I know how you feel. It all should be so obvious - his thoughtlessness, his disrespect, his carelessness, and so on. He should know what he's done to you. He should know how he has hurt you. He should know why you're angry and resentful. But believe him when he says he doesn't know because he doesn't. Steve Harvey spent a lot of years through his books and his daytime TV show trying to help women understand men and trying to help men understand their role as husbands. To quote Steve Harvey "Men are stupid" (maybe he said "dumb" and maybe he said both at different times since he said it so often). What you need to understand is that the phrase "men are from mars and women are from venus" (by a different author) obviously isn't a literal statement but is very true in terms of our differences. Your husband is the typical husband (again a syndrome since it is so common), and you are the typical wife (also a syndrome since wives typically expect their husband to read their mind). You're both so typical that even if you had been expressing yourself to him, I really expect the end result would be the same. You would still be the walk-away wife now.
> 
> But there remains that tidbit of doubt since you never told him. Your silence means there's nothing wrong. Do you get that? That's the part you are responsible for. That's the part you have to own up to, rather than tearing him apart with the weight of full responsibility for the destruction of the marriage and doing last-minute cartwheels and backward flip flops to save it. You've dumped it all on his head, but you owe him the confession of your own failure. And you have to do so without thinking your reasons for not talking to him outweigh the fact that you didn't talk. The one thing that could have/might have made all the difference in the world is yours to regret.
> 
> So you need to relieve that man of this heavy burden you placed on his shoulders. Aside from you taking responsibility for your own part in the breakdown of your marriage, another fact is that he can't possibly live up to what he has started. There's no way he can maintain this persona of Mr. Perfect Husband status forever. Every man in his shoes does this routine when they learn they have something to lose for their actions and behavior. Breakup and divorce come as a shock and scares people, so they cry boatloads of tears, beg for another chance, do everything they know they should have been doing, and make all kinds of promises they're never going to keep in order to prove they can change, but that normally lasts between 3 weeks and 3 months. The point is, it never lasts. And right now, he has a little more time for good behavior since you agreed not to do anything until after New Years. So you probably have until around March for the expected return of Mr. Undesirable. That silly promise to never go fishing again will soon turn into "Honey, Bob asked me to go fishing with him next Saturday. You mind if I go?" Getting your permission isn't the same as breaking his promise. You're not supposed to know that. And then, if you say no, he will extol his wonderfulness to show how devoted he's been and now deserves some guy time. It will never end because, like all the others, it was an unrealistic promise to begin with.
> 
> Your therapist was right about finding a male counselor so your husband doesn't feel ganged up on, but there also exists the problem of some therapists, male and female, harboring an agenda. As much as men feel ganged up on with a female therapist, I've also heard of male therapists making women feel they can't be right about anything and their feelings are unfounded as if it's all just her imagination or she's wrong to expect her husband to act like a husband. While it is perfectly normal to point out each party's shortcomings and each person's contribution to the breakdown of their marriage as I have done here, it's not okay for either party to feel ganged up on or to feel like they have no right to their feelings. It's hard to find a good therapist and not uncommon for a couple to go through a few before they find a good fit. So I suggest your criteria not be limited to insurance acceptance but to also interview several before choosing. Find out their position on the specific problems you're having and how they approach the two parties when addressing those specific problems in helping them to overcome. And then pray your choice works out well for your marriage and your mental health remains intact. LOL
> 
> Honestly, before going to a therapist, I suggest you tackle this yourselves. With the right tools, the right frame of mind, and honest/devoted effort, you can both learn to become a better husband and better wife and have a better marriage. There are numerous articles and books on the internet and many therapists, such as Michele Weiner-Davis at Divorce Busting that I linked above, also offer telephone coaching though I don't know if they accept insurance. My favorite website is MarriageBuilders.com because Dr. Harley offers books, podcasts, and telephone coaching like many others, but he also offers his site full of very helpful articles absolutely free, and his articles address practically everything under the sun. He doesn't have anything specific to the walk-away wife (that was Weiner-Davis' phrase), but his articles are relevant and aimed at addressing those same types of problems between husbands and wives. Like I said, it's all so typical. I like to call his website the do-it-yourself marriage counseling site because everything a couple needs is right there. His book "His Needs, Her Needs" is very popular and people say it is helpful.
> 
> This is what I suggest:
> 
> First, decide if you want the marriage and want to participate in saving it. If you do, then you have to soften your heart and apologize to your husband for your own contribution and be willing to forgive him for his. You don't have to dismiss his actions or behavior, but let him know you expect him to listen when you need to express yourself. There are articles to help you learn how to complain and articles to help him learn how to listen, and the first thing he needs to hear is that you expect him to actively participate in repairing - and then maintaining - your marriage.
> 
> The article suggestions to follow are a great way for the two of you to spend quality time together. But whether you read them together or separately, I suggest reading them in order as listed below, and they have to be scheduled (and required) reading - only one or two per week. At the end of each week, schedule a time for you both to sit down together and discuss the article(s) you read that week and how you will incorporate the principles and concepts into your daily lives. Then the following week, review progress with open and honest discussion. Refrain from criticizing but don't be afraid to express any displeasure. You will each learn you can always do better and should strive to do so.
> 
> 1. You both read *How To Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts And Restore Love*
> 
> 2. You both read *Peace And Good Will: Essential For Effective Conflict Resolution*
> 
> 3. You both read *The Policy of Joint Agreement*
> 
> 4. You both read *How To Negotiate When No One Wants To Raise The Issue*
> 
> 4. You both read *Why Women Leave Men*
> In this article and a couple others, Dr. Harley mentions learning that neglect is the number reason that women file for divorce. This article will help you both to understand why you arrived at wanting a divorce and help you both overcome those types of problems.
> 
> 5. You read *How To Complain In Marriage*
> 
> 6. Your husband read *How To Make Your Wife Happy*
> 
> 7. You both read *The Policy of Undivided Attention*
> 
> 8. Move on now to you both reading Dr. Harley's *Basic Concepts* and follow the order of articles in the right side ribbon. Also, do any questionnaires that the articles provide. Discuss your answers in your weekly review sessions.
> 
> There should be some major changes going on in your marriage after this program. If, however, after months of reading these articles and applying their concepts (or not applying them) you don't observe satisfactory progress and find yourselves still in need of marriage counseling, Dr. Harley offers some tips in selecting a therapist for your needs in his article *How to Find A Good Marriage Counselor*. Truly though, if his site doesn't work for you, I really don't know how a counselor can because the site contains everything that a counselor should offer but not all of them do.


I agree with most of this. You do make some really great points, like me staying silent. My "silent" was being busy, working, cooking, cleaning, making repairs, minor improvements, going to GS events, enriching our girls' childhoods.... all while he worked and then glued himself to the TV
.
But it doesn't take a genius to figure out that when your wife is broken down on the side of the road, that's not the proper time to berate her about how she should have done maintenance before she left.
Or to yell at her on a decade anniversary.
Or to wake her up at 3am on purpose and then scoff at her when she complains that she's tired later because of it. 
Or set things down right in the middle of the food she's prepping 
Or make her repeat herself multiple times because he was too stupid/glued to the TV and CandyCrush to listen
Or leave bait to rot in our good cooler. 
That doesn't take a person of very deep intelect to know most women don't like those things.


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## Cup of Tea

Andy1001 said:


> @Cup of Tea on your very first post you talked about how your husband had finally repaired the water spigots in your garden. You had been asking him for two years to fix them but until he needed water for his new garden project he wouldn’t fix it.
> You then wrote that he expects a “ monument to be built in his honor” for finally getting off his ass.
> You need to be very careful that this change of behavior will last and isn’t just him trying to placate you.
> By the way your daughter needs to tie her laces before she trips🤕.


I'm not easily convinced, and know this much effort wont last. There's no wool over my eyes. 
We walked 4 miles that night, with no trips. They are too short. Good eye!


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## StarFires

Cup of Tea, you can keep on berating him, but you still didn't speak up. That's the bottom line. In addition to all your wonderfulness, you had as much of your life to say something about your marriage and his behavior as he had acting in such ways as to ruin it.

It appears you tolerated a lot, and I know I have a tendency to expect people to be like me because I would have said something to him (more like cursed him out and then threw him out) even less for the sake of our marriage than to teach him how to respect me. I don't know how grown women complain that "he yelled at me" as if he is their father. How you/they take it is not something I understand. But you took it, and, again, you said nothing and did nothing.

I know you're tired and fed up. I know you're frustrated and probably confused. Pretty angry too, but I'm not the one you're angry with, so please don't fuss your anger at me like you just did. You apparently don't like that I pointed out your own contribution to the breakdown of your marriage. But it's true. Not only was your silence indication that nothing was wrong but it also served as permission. If he yelled at you once and you took it, then that gave him permission to yell at you again.....and again because you took it each time. He got away with everything because you didn't stop him. He glued himself in front of the TV because you never turned it off and informed him that he needs to engage with his family. You're married to a boorish kind of guy whom you silently tolerated, and now you want to call him stupid because someone else did. But you're the one married to him. Why did you take it all these years and now blame him?

Now that you allowed him to wear you down and people on this board convinced you to divorce him, you don't want to hear a sane point of view that doesn't agree. But I'm telling you again that it is the propensity of this board to try to convince people to divorce their spouse. You didn't come to a community of professionals. We all here are everyday people just like you with nothing but our opinions to offer. When your children have all the stepmothers and stepfathers to have to deal with and make you regret divorcing their father and tearing the security of their family apart, there is no one here for you to turn to.


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## Blondilocks

Casual Observer said:


> In the absence of deal breakers (infidelity etc) it may be the case that someone has given up too easily and helped to create the environment for the spouse's bad behavior.


Another blame the victim post. Congrats.


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## Casual Observer

Blondilocks said:


> Another blame the victim post. Congrats.


Sorry you see it that way. You're not there, I'm not there, we can only go from what's posted. Which is why I said *may* be the case."


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## Blondilocks

Casual Observer said:


> Sorry you see it that way. You're not there, I'm not there, we can only go from what's posted. Which is why I said *may* be the case."


Have you read her other threads?


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## Casual Observer

Blondilocks said:


> Have you read her other threads?


Yes, but I also have to take at face value things she said in this one. She's free to update this thread, but she admitted she didn't try to communicate well; she gave up early. Which is fine! Her right to do so! But it changes the context a bit if it turns out that, had he known, he might have worked on things, as he is now. I wouldn't make too much out of this. We don't have the whole story. But again, she is free to do as she wishes. She is not property. But that doesn't mean she has zero responsibility for the state of the marriage, even if her husband acted badly.


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## Cup of Tea

MJJEAN said:


> Cats. Some people are actually cats. Much easier way to explain this phenomenon.


I laughed way too hard at this! I needed a good belly laugh. 🤣😆😅


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## Cup of Tea

StarFires said:


> This article "*Why Men Ignore Their Wives*" is about an experimental study conducted by a team of two professors of marketing and psychology at Duke University to determine if the phenomenon called "reactance" (the tendency to do the exact opposite of what's requested by a loved one or boss) is on a conscious or subconscious level. The study was prompted by the wife of the team, Professor Tanya Chartrand, because her husband, Professor Gavan Fitzsimons, is exactly like your husband - always ignoring his wife and reacting to her in opposite ways.
> 
> The study found, according to Professor Chartrand, that "People with a tendency toward reactance may nonconsciously and quite unintentionally act in a counterproductive manner simply because they are trying to resist someone else's encroachment on their freedom."
> 
> So, the result of the study is that the "reactance" phenomenon is a subconscious thing, which explains why it's so common. No matter how utterly dumb your husband may seem to others, do you now see how typical he is? How common your situation is? Again, it really is a syndrome.
> 
> And get this.....
> "Chartrand said her husband 'should now be better equipped to suppress his reactant tendencies.' But Fitzsimons said the results 'suggest that reactance to significant others is so automatic that I can't possibly be expected to control it if I don't even know it's happening."
> 
> They couldn't even agree on what the results mean.
> 
> Yes, Cup of Tea, as Rowan indicated you should continually take the temperature of your marriage by monitoring his level of participation and dedication. Just know that the propensity of this board is to convince people to end their marriage, so consider that when reading negative responses you received in this and your other threads. The intent of the articles I suggested and the program you guys should implement was to help refocus your attention on each other and help you both learn and understand what marriage means and the work you have to put into it. Everybody always says things like "marriage takes work," and many end up saying "I tried everything," but they rely solely on their own devices and limited knowledge. Few people know what that work really is and what it involves. You've endured your husband getting on your nerves for 10 years, so I don't blame you if you're ready to just end it and walk away. But now you know the real work that is required and might as well direct your efforts toward saving your marriage and building a better one. If he doesn't bother to apply himself, at least you can say you tried for real and did all there was for you to do.


Thanks for suggesting that post. I'll have to look for the actual study from _Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, _instead of just a blog post about the study. It makes sense though, and I've seen it a few times myself. Instead of resisting: I get questioned back on what I just said, then ignored. Same thing though..


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## heartsbeating

How are things going?
And is counseling lined up?


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## heartsbeating

By the way, I absolutely approve of your daughter's costume... mreow!


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## Cup of Tea

heartsbeating said:


> How are things going?
> And is counseling lined up?


Funny, I replied and it seems to have disappeared....
Mister has tried to make up for the last few years and I worry he's going to burn himself out. Although its easy to just let him and say "good, that's how I've felt for years", I know I'm better than that. I've been kind to him, but am still guarded. He really has tried hard the last few weeks: cooking, cleaning, finishing the bathroom, and painting the living room. 
.
We even took a drive up the coast where we took our honeymoon. He insisted on driving, holding open doors, and fell all over himself to try and make me happy. It was endearing and we had a good time. 
.
But tonight was a reminder that his loving and attentive attitude wasn't going to last. I have a *0* Christmas before Decembet 1st rule. Plus, Thanksgiving and our daughters birthday are all this weekend, so I have enough to deal with. Well he insisted on a Christmas movie, then was mad that I wouldn't watch it with everyone. The volume was up so loud I could hear it on the other end of the house. And he worked from home, and I still came home to trash and dishes everywhere. 
.
I dunno. Heart says: "Stay! He's your husband, he loves you, and its better to keep the family together." 
Mind says: "Divorce. Sell the house. Start fresh with 0 debt. Be free!"


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## Cup of Tea

heartsbeating said:


> How are things going?
> And is counseling lined up?


There aren't many marriage counselors around here, and they aren't taking anyone new until at least March!


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## moulinyx

Cup of Tea said:


> Funny, I replied and it seems to have disappeared....
> Mister has tried to make up for the last few years and I worry he's going to burn himself out. Although its easy to just let him and say "good, that's how I've felt for years", I know I'm better than that. I've been kind to him, but am still guarded. He really has tried hard the last few weeks: cooking, cleaning, finishing the bathroom, and painting the living room.
> .
> We even took a drive up the coast where we took our honeymoon. He insisted on driving, holding open doors, and fell all over himself to try and make me happy. It was endearing and we had a good time.
> .
> But tonight was a reminder that his loving and attentive attitude wasn't going to last. I have a *0* Christmas before Decembet 1st rule. Plus, Thanksgiving and our daughters birthday are all this weekend, so I have enough to deal with. Well he insisted on a Christmas movie, then was mad that I wouldn't watch it with everyone. The volume was up so loud I could hear it on the other end of the house. And he worked from home, and I still came home to trash and dishes everywhere.
> .
> I dunno. Heart says: "Stay! He's your husband, he loves you, and its better to keep the family together."
> Mind says: "Divorce. Sell the house. Start fresh with 0 debt. Be free!"


I get you are frustrated, but you should relax with the 0 Christmas rule in this instance.

I only say this after reading ALL of your posts. Your husband was as absent as it gets and he really tried that night. That should be +1 for husband who deserves continued dog house.

I don’t think anyone blames you either way, but he seems to be trying to be more present and involved.


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## Cup of Tea

moulinyx said:


> I get you are frustrated, but you should relax with the 0 Christmas rule in this instance.
> 
> I only say this after reading ALL of your posts. Your husband was as absent as it gets and he really tried that night. That should be +1 for husband who deserves continued dog house.
> 
> I don’t think anyone blames you either way, but he seems to be trying to be more present and involved.


Don't get me wrong: I love Christmas! 🌲🎅🎁 I'm just not on board with the extremely aggressive advertising that starts in October. I took Marketing and know what those retailers are up to! 😉 I just like to relax and take one holiday at a time.
He is trying, and so am I. I'm still feeling very drained to the core, and scared to be hurt again.


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## heartsbeating

Cup of Tea said:


> But tonight was a reminder that his loving and attentive attitude wasn't going to last. I have a *0* Christmas before Decembet 1st rule. Plus, Thanksgiving and our daughters birthday are all this weekend, so I have enough to deal with. Well he insisted on a Christmas movie, then was mad that I wouldn't watch it with everyone. The volume was up so loud I could hear it on the other end of the house. And he worked from home, and I still came home to trash and dishes everywhere.


I'm sorry to hear that you are hurt and scared.

With this scenario, how did he express that he was mad that you wouldn't watch the movie? 
And how did you express that you didn't want to watch it? Also, despite the volume being loud (was it louder than usual, or just how he would normally watch a movie?), were you annoyed they still watched it anyway?

As for the chores... well, I don't know what his work is or what his day is like, but I can tell ya that my day gets nuts and working from home, nothing gets done while working. Any chance that could have been the reason? Also, then what happened with the trash and dishes? Your pattern seems to be (and correct me if you feel I'm wrong here) to jump in and fix the thing, likely without saying anything. Did you end up cleaning up? Did you ask him to help do it together?


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## aine

Cup of Tea said:


> Don't get me wrong: I love Christmas! 🌲🎅🎁 I'm just not on board with the extremely aggressive advertising that starts in October. I took Marketing and know what those retailers are up to! 😉 I just like to relax and take one holiday at a time.
> He is trying, and so am I. I'm still feeling very drained to the core, and scared to be hurt again.


@Cup of Tea , haven't see you on here for a while, how are you doing?


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## RKS72

Just read thru all of this and what stick out the most is that picture and your statement "...hasn't ever took his daughter out for trick or treat". That statement just broke my heart just now. Having 3 young boys, I try to do everything with them, coach of their soccer team, taking them biking, hiking , attend events, etc. Really hurts me when I see dad's choosing to not be a part of their child's lives because their own "hobbies" come first. I would love to know an update on all of this and where you are currently.


----------

