# Help keep me manned up, post EA/PA



## disbelief

OK, so I have a very long thread over in infidelity but determined it was time to seek guidance here. SUMMARY: Wife had EA/PA with my best friend/BIL DDay 6 months, Confronted on ongoing contact 3.5 months ago. Have seen withdrawal, baby steps, etc. We have been married 15yrs 5 kids 4 under 12. I have maintained my crazy goal to fix this. 
I have read No More Mister Nice Guy and have changed my approach.
Held my ground today, she wanted to open her own phone plan a argument followed I stayed calm her angry. She said it was to get son on plan because I kept forgetting so I got it done she is super MAD. My reason for NO is that it is one more layer of secrecy. She disagrees. I said if you open your own line you can move out.
Got her the bag to pack she filled it.
Got her the second bag she asked for.
She went and did errands and she let me know where she was going.
She came back, had some casual joking. She washed her truck, she keeps smirking, occaisionally, in between being mad.
She had to go shop with daughters.

She hinted she is leaving tonight. 

That's where I am at. I need to read N.U.T.S and any sugestions on the approach to take when she goes off again would be great.


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## luckyman

You're right. Why would she need her own phone plan? Sounds like you have made a good start. 

Let her go.


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## Deejo

The obvious question often isn't so obvious ...

Are you prepared to let her go? You need to be.


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## disbelief

Yes I have been preparing for 6 months
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> Yes I have been preparing for 6 months
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Preparing for 6 months is not the same Disbelief.

“Do it now”. Is what I think Deejo means. It’s what I would mean.

I’ve been following your thread right from the outset. You’ve been faffing around for so very long. It is truly time to show your backbone is made of steel. That you wont tolerate the crap you’re getting. I suggested that N.U.T.s. book to you over 7 months and over a 1,000 posts ago AND YOU STILL HAVEN’T BOUGHT IT!!!

Pack her bags and mean it. Let her go. Do that and she may well come back if you want her to. She’s playing you really big time.

Bob


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## disbelief

I've read so much was it really 7 months ago?. She just brought the bag go the basement and when my daughter aske where she got it she smirked and said daddy gave it to her.

I am not stopping her.

I think she is trying to push me. She hasn't smirked so many times in one day in ages.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> I've read so much was it really 7 months ago?. She just brought the bag go the basement and when my daughter aske where she got it she smirked and said daddy gave it to her.
> 
> I am not stopping her.
> 
> I think she is trying to push me. She hasn't smirked so many times in one day in ages.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It was TEN MONTHS AGO. That’s very nearly a year. And you're still in the same situation.

I don’t know what you read into the smirks. I read she’s PLAYING YOU. She has the CONTROL. You know, that remote control of YOUR emotions, the one that’s in HER hands and not yours. It is PURE UNADULTERATED MANIPULATION.

You have to take that control away from her. You do that with BOUNDARIES.

It starts by packing her bags and MEANING IT. See it through.

Bob


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## disbelief

Yep she just put all her stuff in asecond bag keep biting my tongue to say don't. Said fine give me the engagement ring then. Family diamond. She did.

I could be completly wrong but my gut says she's going to sort through her clothes in the basement. We'll see. Soccer time
I have read some of the nuts
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo

She's being a smartass because she doesn't believe that YOU will want to go through with it. All the more reason you need to.

So what happens when she calls your bluff and simply says, "I changed my mind. I'm not moving out." ?

Stop doing what she asks. She feels completely in control of what is going on, and worse, she knows it's killing you.


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## disbelief

Ok im hearing you I am prepared to let her walk out the door I wont kick her out DDAY was the end of september I don't think I found this board until October doesn't change the Sitch.
Her body language doesn't match her actions and stagements she's acting more like its a game. She flat out said she thinks she is being set up. Swore to her this was no game.
I will not cave, remind me of that, I should know by 10 Pm if she's going to back up her words.
The smirks aren't throwing me just observing.
Thanks to all!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Dis,
Bob is 100 percent right about this. 

Me - I actually would have said "darling considering that acts of service is one of your love languages, I want to ensure we part on a positive note" and then without another word pick up her bags, take them out and place them in her truck. 

This is emotional judo - she has so beaten you down - that you are on the edge of "asking her to stay despite the fact you BOTH KNOW she wants privacy to play her EA/PA games". 

The smirks - hello - do you not get what that is. She can read your body language like a pro and knows you are struggling not to beg her to stay. So - you put her bags in her trunk and then pack the rest of her stuff in another suitcase or two and put them in her trunk as well. All done with a light spring in your step. 

And when she asks you - today - or in 6 months why you "DID" that you just say "It was obvious you didn't value me as a partner. I am confident that the next woman I choose will value me". Win win. And then shut up. 




disbelief said:


> Yep she just put all her stuff in asecond bag keep biting my tongue to say don't. Said fine give me the engagement ring then. Family diamond. She did.
> 
> I could be completly wrong but my gut says she's going to sort through her clothes in the basement. We'll see. Soccer time
> I have read some of the nuts
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Deejo you have me thinking, good point. How do I play it if she decides to sleep. On the couch as usual. 
Do I throw ou a thought u were leaving. I plan on doing what I have to like she's not home.
What if she pulls a 180 & gets affectionate? We've had more physical contact today than in a long while.
Just another thing I never planned to deal with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Mem that could fall into play when I get back home........if she's still/there and thanks I forgot about my body language.
This is helping!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo

disbelief said:


> Deejo you have me thinking, good point. How do I play it if she decides to sleep. On the couch as usual.
> Do I throw ou a thought u were leaving. I plan on doing what I have to like she's not home.
> What if she pulls a 180 & gets affectionate? We've had more physical contact today than in a long while.
> Just another thing I never planned to deal with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Start smirking and shaking your head back at her.

I like MEM's term of emotional judo, and at this point, you should damn well be thinking of her more as an adversary than a partner.

If you are struggling or unsure about 'getting into it' with her, then no, I don't think you should challenge why she hasn't left.

Just start operating as if she has ...

Turn the emotional thermostat down to 0 degrees Kelvin. Deal with and interact with her as little as possible.

She needs to be uncomfortable, very uncomfortable. And you need to discover that you don't need this woman ... at all ... for anything.


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## disbelief

Roger that, I have realized I can do this all without her. I still prefer to save my M. BUT I will not go on forever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

You really don't believe that cold is hot, and hot is cold. 

Do you honestly think I post this stuff based on little snippets from Chinese fortune cookies? Do you really think my W has never threatened to leave me? Do you really think she has never escalated a minor dispute to a full blown multi-day precipice dance. Do you think I have had one major tussle and extrapolated from that? 

ALL of this - EVERYTHING I suggest is intended to maximize the chance of you saving the marriage. But by "marriage" I don't mean you stay in the same house and avoid a divorce decree. By "marriage" I mean a mutually respectful, symbiotic relationship. And until you get control of your fear - that ain't gonna happen. 





disbelief said:


> Roger that, I have realized I can do this all without her. I still prefer to save my M. BUT I will not go on forever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

I know you can move on so go down to the market and pick the emty boxes.
Screw the bags...what you gave her one or two bags to pack..well nothing says I'm done like a bunch of boxes with her stuff.....with all her stuff in them.

Granted she can stay and fine, let her live out of thoses boxes, just the sight and even the action of putting her stuff into boxes, just might be cleansing for you.

I mean nothing says I'm moving on on like taping up boxes. She may take them and leave she may not but the statement can be made with just the though and sight of boxes laying everywhere.

Bags a suit cases, thats small stuff, go big time and get the moving boxes. I'm just saying, the jesture may be worth more then words

Just my $0.02.


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## disbelief

MEM11363 said:


> You really don't believe that cold is hot, and hot is cold.
> 
> Do you honestly think I post this stuff based on little snippets from Chinese fortune cookies? Do you really think my W has never threatened to leave me? Do you really think she has never escalated a minor dispute to a full blown multi-day precipice dance. Do you think I have had one major tussle and extrapolated from that?
> 
> ALL of this - EVERYTHING I suggest is intended to maximize the chance of you saving the marriage. But by "marriage" I don't mean you stay in the same house and avoid a divorce decree. By "marriage" I mean a mutually respectful, symbiotic relationship. And until you get control of your fear - that ain't gonna happen.


I truly appreciate your input. Everyone here is much more helpful than the IC. How you describe marriage is what I want. I am confronting her with those things. I DO NOT fear her leaving not for me for the kids .....uggghhh... I have one that cries wwhen she wont see a friend for 5 days.

I just really have to make sure I dont back down from my boundaries. I am nearly a single dad rt now, due to her schedule.


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## Affaircare

Dear Fellas (disbelief included)~

I would like to throw in my thoughts, as a female and as a former disloyal. To be concise I've been telling disbelief for months that he's been spinning his tires doing nothing out of fear, and that the things he HAS done, he's been doing in an attempt to manipulate her. For the life of me I have tried every way I know how to explain that I don't mean what people envision when they say "He was manipulative and controlling" because I think he envisions "bossy." What I mean is that rather coming right out and saying what he needs or standing for a boundary in a healthy, mutually satisfying relationship kind-of-way, he tries to maneuver and finesse things to get them to turn out the way he wants. 

Here is reality. For the past 10 months or so, disbelief's wife has not acted as if she has any love, respect, or really interest in him at all. I have not heard of a single act, despite all his claims of "baby steps." Fooey. When someone is "into you" they will make a move that can be identified within 10 months!! Plus I'll be the first to admit I'm all for being patient, not rushing into a decision to end a marriage, etc. but the balance to that is that I recommend people start working on changing themselves and implementing boundaries right away. People can misread it and misinterpret it but before the marriage can recover the affair has to end...and once the affair has ended there just can not be "Plan Doormat" (aka NiceGuy or Beta). For real recovery people have to CHANGE= not being the way it was!!!!

I can't speak for everyone but for myself, I'm frustrated. Obviously I still care or I wouldn't bother to reply at all, but it is discouraging to hear "baby steps...baby steps" when what's really happening is no movement, wheels spinning, and ongoing disrespect. Frankly the packing and moving out should have happened LONG ago to demonstrate any kind of strength of character. What has happened now is that she's essentially been taught that she can offer literally bare minimum or nothing in the Respect Dept., contribute NOTHING to love or honor, and basically get away with it. Thus, to suddenly pack now would be... well frankly I don't see what it would teach other than confusion! 

Does anyone here know what I mean when I say that there are disloyals who have their affair, and after the affair ends (for whatever the reason), they are staggered for a little and then you can TELL...they "Get It." Either it's because their loyal laid down the minimum boundaries and boldly enforced them or it's because the disloyal really knew it was wrong and decided on their own to end it or whatever...but they "Get It" and then act accordingly. Their ACTIONS indicate they are willing to be open, they want to change even if it hurts and/or is hard, and willing to step into that big unknown and create the loving, intimate, sometimes silly-fun marriage they want? Keep that picture in your head a moment. 

I don't see that here. Not even close. And furthermore, when a disloyal does "Get It" and really engages in changing themselves and the marriage...does their loyal stay the same? Well they may choose that but since the dynamics of the marriage are changing that usually leaves the loyal in the dust! In a summary, disbelief, I think your wife is snowing you and has been for months; she has some serious life lessons to learn that she would learn a WHOLE LOT FASTER if you taught her how to treat you with respect rather than accepting "baby steps". 

HOWEVER...

...she's not here and from what I see has no motivation to change AND has been pretty clear that she intends to clam up and not face herself. To her, it is more painful to face herself and her issues than it is to lose you, her kids and her family. She's been clear on that for ... oh nine months now at least. But the issue that's killing me to watch is that she's not the only one who won't face herself! I'm going to leave it to the wise men here--it is my highest hope they may be able to break through to you in a way you can understand--but a very large piece of this issue is that rather than setting a healthy boundary, stating it, standing by it and asking right out loud for your life partner to meet that need, you manipulate and maneuver and finesse and negotiate and lure and trick and manufacture and plot ... to try to get it to turn out the way you want! That is not how healthy, mature, mutual relationships operate!! And if you do end it with your wife some day, as long as you pretend this "manipulation" is not occuring, you'll just do it with the next woman as well and set yourself up for destruction!

So wise men of this clubhouse...good luck. Disbelief, please I am begging you to listen to these men. It may "feel wrong" and it may seem "unnatural" but what feels normal to you now is very, very ... well it's not working let's just say that.


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> What if she pulls a 180 & gets affectionate? We've had more physical contact today than in a long while.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let me see if I can get you to have the EPIPHANY MOMENT you need.

You are her BACK UP PLAN!!!. Do you not get what that means? It means if all her overtures to OM FAIL, you will be there as her 2ND RATE ALTERNATIVE!!!

That means you are NOT HER FIRST CHOICE. And if it’s not OM1 it will be OM2 and if not OM2 it will be OM3. She is LOOKING FOR A WAY OUT OF HER MARRIAGE WITH YOU.

When she gets AFFECTIONATE that means she’s seen you withdraw and she’s REELING you back in with AFFECTION. It is COMPLETE AND UNADULTERATED MANIPULATION.

Right now Disbelief you are so naive it is unbelievable. Unless of course you had your epiphany moment. Unless the above opened your eyes to what your wife is doing.

In case it didn’t, think on this.

As your wife drives to work she is thinking and planning a) HOW SHE CAN GET BACK WITH OM and b) HOW SHE CAN KEEP YOU AS HER BACK-UP PLAN.

As your wife drives home she is thinking and planning a) HOW SHE CAN GET BACK WITH OM and b) HOW SHE CAN KEEP YOU AS HER BACK-UP PLAN.

And when she is with you she is EXECUTING HER PLANS with you as her BACK-UP PLAN.

Bob


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## AFEH

Affaircare said:


> Dear Fellas (disbelief included)~
> 
> I would like to throw in my thoughts, as a female and as a former disloyal. To be concise I've been telling disbelief for months that he's been spinning his tires doing nothing out of fear, and that the things he HAS done, he's been doing in an attempt to manipulate her. For the life of me I have tried every way I know how to explain that I don't mean what people envision when they say "He was manipulative and controlling" because I think he envisions "bossy." What I mean is that rather coming right out and saying what he needs or standing for a boundary in a healthy, mutually satisfying relationship kind-of-way, he tries to maneuver and finesse things to get them to turn out the way he wants.
> 
> Here is reality. For the past 10 months or so, disbelief's wife has not acted as if she has any love, respect, or really interest in him at all. I have not heard of a single act, despite all his claims of "baby steps." Fooey. When someone is "into you" they will make a move that can be identified within 10 months!! Plus I'll be the first to admit I'm all for being patient, not rushing into a decision to end a marriage, etc. but the balance to that is that I recommend people start working on changing themselves and implementing boundaries right away. People can misread it and misinterpret it but before the marriage can recover the affair has to end...and once the affair has ended there just can not be "Plan Doormat" (aka NiceGuy or Beta). For real recovery people have to CHANGE= not being the way it was!!!!
> 
> I can't speak for everyone but for myself, I'm frustrated. Obviously I still care or I wouldn't bother to reply at all, but it is discouraging to hear "baby steps...baby steps" when what's really happening is no movement, wheels spinning, and ongoing disrespect. Frankly the packing and moving out should have happened LONG ago to demonstrate any kind of strength of character. What has happened now is that she's essentially been taught that she can offer literally bare minimum or nothing in the Respect Dept., contribute NOTHING to love or honor, and basically get away with it. Thus, to suddenly pack now would be... well frankly I don't see what it would teach other than confusion!
> 
> Does anyone here know what I mean when I say that there are disloyals who have their affair, and after the affair ends (for whatever the reason), they are staggered for a little and then you can TELL...they "Get It." Either it's because their loyal laid down the minimum boundaries and boldly enforced them or it's because the disloyal really knew it was wrong and decided on their own to end it or whatever...but they "Get It" and then act accordingly. Their ACTIONS indicate they are willing to be open, they want to change even if it hurts and/or is hard, and willing to step into that big unknown and create the loving, intimate, sometimes silly-fun marriage they want? Keep that picture in your head a moment.
> 
> I don't see that here. Not even close. And furthermore, when a disloyal does "Get It" and really engages in changing themselves and the marriage...does their loyal stay the same? Well they may choose that but since the dynamics of the marriage are changing that usually leaves the loyal in the dust! In a summary, disbelief, I think your wife is snowing you and has been for months; she has some serious life lessons to learn that she would learn a WHOLE LOT FASTER if you taught her how to treat you with respect rather than accepting "baby steps".
> 
> HOWEVER...
> 
> ...she's not here and from what I see has no motivation to change AND has been pretty clear that she intends to clam up and not face herself. To her, it is more painful to face herself and her issues than it is to lose you, her kids and her family. She's been clear on that for ... oh nine months now at least. But the issue that's killing me to watch is that she's not the only one who won't face herself! I'm going to leave it to the wise men here--it is my highest hope they may be able to break through to you in a way you can understand--but a very large piece of this issue is that rather than setting a healthy boundary, stating it, standing by it and asking right out loud for your life partner to meet that need, you manipulate and maneuver and finesse and negotiate and lure and trick and manufacture and plot ... to try to get it to turn out the way you want! That is not how healthy, mature, mutual relationships operate!! And if you do end it with your wife some day, as long as you pretend this "manipulation" is not occuring, you'll just do it with the next woman as well and set yourself up for destruction!
> 
> So wise men of this clubhouse...good luck. Disbelief, please I am begging you to listen to these men. It may "feel wrong" and it may seem "unnatural" but what feels normal to you now is very, very ... well it's not working let's just say that.


The way I see it is Disbelief has been doing Plan A, Plan B and the 180 ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Meanwhile he hasn’t got any N.U.T.s. and most definitely doesn’t have any personal boundaries.

And as an aside and with due respect, it is my opinion that the Affaircare Plan A is a Master Class in "how to be" a Nice Guy.

Bob


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## disbelief

Ok maybe all of you are right. 
I will say this and note this is before coffee. 
If I had not spent this time on this board I would be stuck at 6 months ago like a divorced lady I met who says she has been sguck for seven years.
I have never in my life realized the boundary thing until recently.
haviing come out of my own fog I can see more clearly now.
I have 4 young ones who love and adore mom and when I get fed up they balance that frustration and that is why I have been able to tolerate so long. June was in my head as a end of waiting on her to act.
I have experienced much personal internal change in the last few months that allows me to realize I can take care of my home and family without her.
I still prefer to save my M.
So I need to state to her my requirements to restablish this R, my boundaries, and offer the door with it.
Seperation papers.

I hope to be a reconciled improved marriage but I am not going to go on like this, 

I don't have the support real world, my Dad has been a Nice Guy all his life and is just now standing his ground with my mom at 67.
So I am learning.

Criticize me hard that's fine I wont see the light otherwise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So here's what I just thumbed out for a letter. Edit critique make it more effective. 
Thanks.


Dear Mrs. Disbelief,
So this i where i am at it has been almost a year since i stated trying to figure out what was wrong. Why you were becoming distant.
It has been 7 mos since d day
4 months since i confronted you on all the emails
The changes you see in me are not manipulation. It is personal growth coming out of depression, facing my fears, becoming more spiritual.

So you know that my true desire is to renew our marriage to a better relationship than it was.
That mean we sort out the old work through the pain, and find a course for the future instead of being stuck in the pain of limbo.

You seem to want to move on like nothing happened. That wont work.

You have your needs i have mine there are smarter better versed people on this subject than us. You wouldnt get your masters degree without a class the truck goes to a mechanic, the marriage is the foundation of generations of our family to come we need an engineer to help us. 

So this is what i need to continue on. I need to see that you actually want me, this marriage and want to be here. 
Your fear of me being out to get you is all in your head.

I need for us to goto MC, and lets expedite that healing by going to one of the weekend retreats for couples like us. We can go as soon as the end of May. We have the money you have the time to take off.
This is the starting point, we do this in the next month, by the end of May.

If you do not want to commit to me and treat me as a valued life partner then its time to move on. If you do not want to take these initial steps then we seperate. We seperate in accordance to how you said months ago. You find a place, the kids and I stay here.

These are initial steps we both have new bounadries and needs we will have to address.

We face our fears and issues now head on. We grow from that. We do the above like I said and it ends in seperation, divorce or healing and a renewed marriage. Either way we work through the issues and can get along better.

May 12 we goto MC decide by then on the weekend or the seperation. 

Disbelief
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo

You asked for harsh critique ...

Letters are useless. Utterly and absolutely useless. Beneficial for you perhaps to coalesce your thoughts and feelings. But it is often imagined that by pouring feelings and truth onto paper and handing it to a wayward or absent partner, that they will read it and have a light-bulb moment. It simply doesn't happen.

Please ... be honest with yourself. She knows all of this already. And it hasn't meant squat. Putting your thoughts and hopes for your life down on paper and handing it to her ... WILL NOT MOVE HER. Not one iota.

The only paper you should be putting in her hands at this point are separation papers. Those say everything that needs to be said about 'how you feel'.

You will not get anything remotely resembling the results you hope for by giving her that letter.


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## disbelief

Ok, I defer to writing because I am one that completly messes up what I want to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Disbelief, I've been telling you forever to knock her off the fence. Layout the boundaries in simple bullet points of what you feel is required. Give them to her and then tell her you will discuss it with her following day after she has had a chance to digest them and make up her mind if those boundaries are her choice or a separation agreement with a divorce to follow - that is more than enough time after all of your patieince to this point. It's what I did 1 month after dday. When you discuss it, nothing on your list is negotiable - now or never.
The list will help you to unequivocally define it before you discuss it. KISS - keep it simple.......


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## disbelief

Just said it all to her. 
Minimal reaction
no real answer
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

QFT

Grow some balls disbelief.



MEM11363 said:


> You really don't believe that cold is hot, and hot is cold.
> 
> Do you honestly think I post this stuff based on little snippets from Chinese fortune cookies? Do you really think my W has never threatened to leave me? Do you really think she has never escalated a minor dispute to a full blown multi-day precipice dance. Do you think I have had one major tussle and extrapolated from that?
> 
> ALL of this - EVERYTHING I suggest is intended to maximize the chance of you saving the marriage. But by "marriage" I don't mean you stay in the same house and avoid a divorce decree. By "marriage" I mean a mutually respectful, symbiotic relationship. And until you get control of your fear - that ain't gonna happen.


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## Deejo

disbelief said:


> Just said it all to her.
> Minimal reaction
> no real answer
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Which is in itself an answer.

You need to let this woman go.


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## disbelief

Just updated and printed the seperation agreement Draft. Should I give it to her before she goes in for a 12hour night shift ?
yeah I know only a draft but that's all I have rt now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

disbelief said:


> Just updated and printed the seperation agreement Draft. Should I give it to her before she goes in for a 12hour night shift ?
> yeah I know only a draft but that's all I have rt now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sure


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## disbelief

Alright I just realized how lousy you feel when you are doing something that deep down inside ya don't want to do or have happen. I ll go bang some more nails. This sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

disbelief said:


> Alright I just realized how lousy you feel when you are doing something that deep down inside ya don't want to do or have happen. I ll go bang some more nails. This sucks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You've realized that for a long long time.

Which is why you've waited and hoped for the best.

Do you know Einstein's definition of insanity?


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## disbelief

Not off hand
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

disbelief said:


> Not off hand
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"


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## disbelief

Oh yeah 
it is very hard to make this move knowing I don't want it 4 kids I know will not be happy, the oldest who know gonna give him the man up books while he's in his 20'S.
And one son just came home and he has had concerns we might divorce primarily because he had been listening to that Dellailah radio show.

It would also be easier if she was being mean but she's not, of course this isn't what I want for marriage.

All I have is Aaarrrrrrgggghhhh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega

Disbelief...

Look at your situation. From an outside perspective.

- you are not happy where you are right now.
- you will not be happy doing the exact same thing...baby steps.
- you want happiness.
- forcing your wife off the limbo fence is scary.
The result......
- your wife grows up. Works on the marriage. You are happy again.
- your wife leaves. You are sad. YOU grow up. Meet someone loving and caring that meets your needs. You are happy again.

Take a look at both those outcomes. They kinda look like win win to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Alright, disbelief-I'm going to lower the boom on you.

She's pushing your buttons and hoping that you will cave, and you, wuss that you are, are caving.
What was that bulls**t about "no real answer"? It was her playing you, AGAIN, and you standing there with you thumb up your a**, going "Duh", AGAIN!!!
AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT SHE WANTS YOU TO DO!!!
WAKE UP, STUPID!!!

Throw her sorry, skanky a** out NOW!!!

Then, maybe she'll finally get it.


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## disbelief

Thank you,.................this would be alot easier without kids !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo

I really don't want to dogpile on you ... but why aren't you filing for divorce? Given your circumstances separation simply seems like another 'threat' rather than real action.

Have you spoken with an attorney at all? If not, you need to.


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## Dogsquat

Disbelief - 

I wish my parents had divorced when I was a kid. Even at nine or ten years old, I could feel the tension in my house. My parents had a few years of screaming fights, and after that settled down into a sort of Cold War type situation.

On the surface, everything was there:

Two parents, decent house, good neighborhood. For me, it was a nest of tension. It affected me in ways I'm only just now figuring out. I hated coming home, so I did every extracurricular activity possible. I'd leave for school at 7 a.m. and catch a ride home at 7 p.m. One day per weekend was taken up with sports. Summers off were hell for me, since there was nothing going on and I'd stew in that House of Tension.

As a result, I turned down several full ride scholarships to college and joined the military - simply so I could get away from that situation. For a long time, I involuntarily associated women with fighting, manipulation, and unhappiness. It's taken several years to overcome these feelings.

Just to reiterate:

Staying in a crappy marriage just to check off boxes (two biological parents, decent house, etc) isn't always the best thing for a kid. Kids are smarter than we often give them credit for. They know things, and they absorb information at this age that makes them who they are as adults.

My $0.02, worth exactly what you paid for it.


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## disbelief

Simple haven't filed because its not what I want and. I have seen many reconciled stories in worse scenarios. I will take the dogpile
Thanks for the .02 also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Did you give her the separation papers? Why not? (see, I'm assuming you didn't)

She GAVE you her answer - NO answer.

Does she have a place to stay? Parents, etc.? If so, spend the rest of the day packing up her stuff in boxes. Have it waiting for her on the driveway. Call her folks and let them know she's coming to stay with them. Take the kids out to a movie.


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> Simple haven't filed because its not what I want and. I have seen many reconciled stories in worse scenarios. I will take the dogpile
> Thanks for the .02 also.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Think of filing as an action taken to wake her up and give her one last chance.

Nothing else is going to do it.


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## 8yearscheating

I Won't pile on. You've taken the steps and given her a choice. Give her a few days to stew in it and think. Just go dark. If she tries to be nice, let her know your waiting for an answer. Cordial isn't enough anymore. I know you hate it and are want the best for the kids. I also hated stepping that close to the cliff. The results and progress were worth it. Here's hoping she moves the right way for you. You're in my prayers. I'm not religious, it's just there are no atheists in a foxhole!


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## 8yearscheating

Side note - you have balls and courage to come this far and put it on the line like you just did! Here's a truckload of encouragement for ya!


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## Atholk

Talk does nothing, only actions communicate.


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## disbelief

Yes I gave her the paper prefaced by a short letter of these are my requirements to work on this marriage ....No contact transparency counseling and more on the list. I said Step up and we work on this for real or we seperate. Gave her the seperation agreement, she got angry at the wording about custody.....whatever thats what she said months ago.''

She was late for work I didnt help ther wasn't much discussion.

So I snatched it back so she couldn't decide to get off cheap with a lawyer. 
I was just speaking with a friend and said that if she doesn't get off the fence I will file. And I will.
I think come the middle of May we can use our seasonal. That would give me a few dark days, need a paycheck to have enough funds to file. And a counseling appointment. Or the papers at the counseling appointment with a pro marriage councillor I guess that would be awkward ....Oh well.


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> Side note - you have balls and courage to come this far and put it on the line like you just did! Here's a truckload of encouragement for ya!


LOL at no athiests in a foxhole......haven't heard that in a while.

Thanks, emotionally tapped tonight. Not so sure i won the emotional Judo but I swear that negative vibe/ tension has been gone since we argued it out yesterday.


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Alright, disbelief-I'm going to lower the boom on you.
> 
> 
> What was that bulls**t about "no real answer"?


A lifetime norm for her actually to not answer a question. The kids do it to i don't get it.


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## Conrad

disbelief said:


> LOL at no athiests in a foxhole......haven't heard that in a while.
> 
> Thanks, emotionally tapped tonight. Not so sure i won the emotional Judo but I swear that negative vibe/ tension has been gone since we argued it out yesterday.


GOOD

Stay the course.

Do not let her even get the impression you're sweating.


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## F-102

DB, let me start by saying that maybe I came down hard with some words I used, but I was having a bad day, and I needed to drop my bombs-unfortunately, you were the first thing I saw.

But about the BS of "no real answer", of course the kids do it-they see mom getting away with it every time.

DB, PLEEEASE!!! You have to show those kids that there will be consequences, and that is the main reason that I came down on you. Otherwise, they will grow up thinking that looking down on the floor is acceptable. Didn't you say you were military? (I may be mistaken) But what would your CO or 1SGT do to you if you just "looked at the floor" when they asked you a question?


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## turnera

Great point. Our kids become replicas of ourselves.


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> DB, let me start by saying that maybe I came down hard with some words I used, but I was having a bad day, and I needed to drop my bombs-unfortunately, you were the first thing I saw.
> 
> But about the BS of "no real answer", of course the kids do it-they see mom getting away with it every time.
> 
> DB, PLEEEASE!!! You have to show those kids that there will be consequences, and that is the main reason that I came down on you. Otherwise, they will grow up thinking that looking down on the floor is acceptable. Didn't you say you were military? (I may be mistaken) But what would your CO or 1SGT do to you if you just "looked at the floor" when they asked you a question?


Your right on the no answers thing. If I had figured out it was her bottling it up and building up resentment maybe then to things would be different in her head. Still I do not take responsibility for Affair. IC and i discussed some of this today.
Most of our disagreeing is done when the kids are at school so lucky for them/me I have them the majority of the time. I only had a few weeks when i was really off with them. Otherwise I have been able to remain consistent with all aspects of their lives. 

F 102- I have wanted to ask If you flew them. 

Came down hard, if i couldn't handle it I wouldn't be typing right now.
That's part of the problem today, you cant yell at anyone, you can't really punish, you have to PC everything and be careful not to hurt feelings.................

If every kid in the world had a good dose of tough love balanced by the norm this country would be in a much better place.

So Yup I am a nice guy. My dad is a nice guy and at 67 is finally fed up with my mom at a great personal and financial expense to himself. Gave him the NMMNG book.

So to go through with that yesterday went against the fiber of my being and that is why I came into this forum. I needed the backing she needed a push. I would have backed down otherwise. The great thing about this forum is for all I know I see you everyday at the gas station, but the anonimity allows for blatant honesty. If that makes me grow up more than fine .

Why havent i filed for Divorce: I actually love this woman and I believe when you really love someone if you are strong enough secure enough in yourself and have reached the point after this shock that you realize you can live with or without them it becomes a choice.
To me it is a logical choice, I could make it a math choice by budget and the number of times a week I will have to see her anyway. The simple fact that we really haven't worked to recover yet. So I was hoping pushing her off the fence would push her to recovery however I now believe she is to afraid to face herself. I also believe that if we actually worked at it we could reconcile in a healthy way.

The kids are the next victims they know we have some disagreements but there are no yelling matches. There are no real indicators to them. I have seen stats that the kids suffer so much and I have 4 12 and under, YAY........regression, depression etc etc.
It was 24 hours from the time I gave her everything yesterday until I saw her again. She got up to get ready for work, obviously sad, she asked me why I bought somethin the honest response was because i thought my wife would like it she teared up shortly after.

We Had an event for our kids at the church. She actually had to go in I am wondering If she is surprised she didn't burst into flames  . She went to work, and texted saying, "She will write a note when she can find the words that will not cause her harm. She said she won't threaten anymore(moving out) She just needs some time to put her stuff together. She believes i will be happier. That she can see and that is all she wants for me"(hmm she should have thought of that before the A)
I told it is her choice to leave this Marriage because the honest truth is I want my family whole and Healthy. 

She doesn't believe me............yet she broke the trust.

To me giving it the all is at least putting a year into it regular MC, a solid weekend retreat of some type and coaching or mentoring by someone who has been there recovered from that.

So no I do not want to live in an unhealthy marriage no, but am i still willing to work yes call me crazy.

For the record I actually feel ok right now.


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## daison

you are totally crazy. My parents getting divorced was the best thing that ever happened to me. Just because you love her does not mean she loves you. What kind of marriage is that? There is merit to wanting to make things work, but after plowing through your entire back story I honestly have to agree with basically everyone else and say get your sh** together and get out. She is stringing you along, and you are stringing your kids along. Let go already, it's going nowhere.


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## AFEH

Disbelief,
I woke up one day and realised I could make my love for my wife a choice. Before that I simply didn’t believe I had a choice. I then looked at what I was getting back from being the no choice “in love” with my wife. I saw I was getting back way less than I was putting in so I decided to no longer be in love with her, to no longer love her.

That thought changed my world and I’ve never regretted it in the same way that I never regretted being in love with my wife.

Bob


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## disbelief

AFEH said:


> Disbelief,
> I woke up one day and realised I could make my love for my wife a choice. Before that I simply didn’t believe I had a choice. I then looked at what I was getting back from being the no choice “in love” with my wife. I saw I was getting back way less than I was putting in so I decided to no longer be in love with her, to no longer love her
> That thought changed my world and I’ve never regretted it in the same way that I never regretted being in love with my wife.
> 
> Bob


Thanks Bob, That really resonates with me. No matter the final outcome at least now I will. Be able to look in the mirror for the rest of my life and say I tried, I gave it my all and that's all I could do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I completely understand why you continue to pursue R with her and have had the the patience to try and let her work things out in her mind. She appears to be the same stubborn person my wife is and in that stubborn attitude comes a belief that she has to do what is the right thing for you, which in her mind is to set you free. She believes you have been damaged enough and does not think she deserves to have a chance with you because of what she has done. Hopefully, she will look past herself and realize you are indeed still in love with her and that you deserve a chance together to try. 

IN fact, you should make the point to her, that she owes you that chance and should not be making a decision for you to end it it.

Your in my thoughts and prayers. If you need to talk for any reason, call. I'll be offline for a time today because my wife is testifying against a defendant that is well liked and expected to have crowd of supporters at the courthouse today. Going to provide her some sense of security after the preliminary trial. c*cked, locked and ready to rock if one of these supporters tries something stupid. Call me anytime.
8


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## disbelief

Thanks 8, be careful out there. I should be good today. Bigger headache than heartache rt now. Good points made by all here, and that is why I stick around or I would be stuck in my own head. No matter the outcome I have a lifetime of interacting with my W. The youngest is 6. So the minimum goal is amicable co-parenting.

Sunshine, fresh air, birds chirping..............It's A GREAT DAY TO BE ALIVE!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Thanks for your words, DB. No, I did not fly F-102s (they were retired shortly after I was born!), but I am a huge aviation buff, and I build a lot of model planes, most of them are here in my den, and when I first signed on to this site, I was looking for a name, and my eyes fell on a model of the "Deuce", so there it is.

But I will say, I admire your patience, and I wish I had it-I would have checked out of your situation long ago, but your situation reminds me of something I tell myself:

"I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell ME what to do, and I tell me to work the problem on MY terms."

Still in your corner, if you want me.


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## disbelief

Ill take any backing in my corner! and like I said if nobody is there to call me out when I appear to be acting stupid what am I gonna learn. 
I guess effectively it would be constructive criticism. I am like my dad I am very patient I have a very long fuse I don't get truly mad very often but when I do its usually ugly, not violent just ugly.

So either way she needs to express her intentions more clearly, she feels she has been trying. I made it clear 48 hours ago it wasn't enough. I am going about my day as if she isn't here bonus is. Kids can stay outside and play instead of me having to pack everyone into the car for one errand. She gets the errand.

Im with my kids..............burning food!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega

Disbelief,

I can't help but get the impression in your writing that it smacks of self pity and confusion.......maybe I'm wrong...

Time to man up. A part of What manning up truly is. Stay. Go. Wait. It doesn't matter. Just be confident in YOUR decision. Make one and stick with it until you can't anymore because factors change, etc. You can't make or force her to decide anything or think in a certain way. You only have control of you. So get off the pity ride and be confident in your decision, your future, and how YOU will shape that future. No one else, including your wife, gets to make those decisions for you. If u keep thinking that way, then you are truly a beta and are nothing more than a slaving participant in your own life..thinking you are in control when in reality you are not.

You control your own emotions. You control your own happiness. You control your own destiny. Make it happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I must present self pity then it is not how I feel. My ic says I present with confidence and that I am much more in control than at the begining of this.

I need the man up kick in the pants its easy to slide back to nice guy.
I Set my needs/ stated boundaries I will giver her a while for it to sink in, I am confident I can live without her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

well a great day for my kids First Communion. No earth shattering supernatural events occurred when my W was in the church for more that an hour and actually recv'd communion for the first time in ages. 

Anyway I just reread about half of the fitness testing thread, I think i actually read it back when i was still in shock.

I am beginnig to think she is testing me. She says she will not trust anyone ever again. As illogical as that is to me since she had the A. 

But this is the third time we have had a heated argument about issues it leads up to R talk and her leaving, I say go, the more she breaks out accusations the more firmly I stand my ground. (maybe it's the wrong approach) but I do not dismiss in fact I reinforce how strong my love has always been for her and will be and so on.
Disagreement goes on she cries says leave me alone. I say I am done move out do whatever you want I don't care I will be fine.

Now after these three well maybe four disagreements just like this she ends up being more than nice to me, and agreeable. She ends up calling me with her "plans/schedule" The more I show little concern the more she talks.

So regardless of how this affects the current situation but to help me learn for the future, any future relationship, is this the testing?

She said she was going to talk to the kids about leaving next week. I told her to go ahead.
Today was her only day off between 3 on and 4 on so I won't see much of her. For the record i don't believe her. This is when I get to see how accurate my gut is for the future as well.


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## 8yearscheating

Sounds to me like you are starting to get some clarity and insight into why she is behaving as she is. Ever consider how her past impacts how she behaves now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

For months I have been considering this as a partialt result of her lifetime of supressed issues. I keep digging deeper, confronting issues she brings up. Heck I asked her one night if she ever wished her parents would be back together she answered sometimes. I wonder how many other layers of unresolved issues there are.
wish I found this board years ago and had started seeking knowledge then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

You are "causing" your own downfall by telling her how much you love her because you still don't see the simple, brutal logic of this situation. The more you say "I love you and always will" the more she hears "I will ALWAYS be willing to be your plan B". No matter WHAT ELSE you say during those conversations she hears you crying out "plan B, plan B, plan B". 

Her constant little games with you - I call them "precipice dancing" where she threatens to throw the marriage off the edge of the "precipice" and you try to convince her not to - they are all the same. She is indirectly asking "Will you, oh will you be my plan B" and you are saying "YES YES YES". 

The reason I have a great marriage - I am either PLAN A, or I am GONE. Very simple, very clear EVERYTHING I do during a precipice dance reinforces that message. And as my W starts thinking - damn - gone means - damn he will be with someone else within a year at most, at which point there is zero chance of recovery - she begins to frantically backpedal away from the edge of the cliff. 

And PART of that is I NEVER, and I mean NEVER talk about how I feel during the dance. It is all about HER. So I say "If you don't want to be here - I think it is best for you to leave. You SHOULD leave. I don't want you to be unhappy". And the thing is I MEAN it. She knows me. I like chess and I don't play poker. I am not into bluffing. If I push ALL my chips to the middle of the table it means I have a straight flush. 




disbelief said:


> For months I have been considering this as a partialt result of her lifetime of supressed issues. I keep digging deeper, confronting issues she brings up. Heck I asked her one night if she ever wished her parents would be back together she answered sometimes. I wonder how many other layers of unresolved issues there are.
> wish I found this board years ago and had started seeking knowledge then.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> She said she was going to talk to the kids about leaving next week. I told her to go ahead.


This is a mistake. You need to tell them first, and YOUR version of why. 

She is NOT your friend, ok? 

You're sitting back waiting, expecting her to CARE about you, how you feel, and how you LOOK. 

She doesn't. And she will lie, justify, and make you look like **** if the kids give her a hard time. And they will. 

You think she's going to say "I'm a bad person and your dad is wonderful, and you should stay with him"? Uh, no.

Tell them yourself before she has a chance to twist the events to make her look good.

Mind you, I'm not telling you to make HER look bad, either. Just tell the truth.


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## boxer

God, what a horrible situation. 

Do you watch Sex in the City or Desperate Housewives? How about Oprah or Dr. Phil? Ever watch Eat Pray Love? Do you read Harlequin romance novels? These all empower women to treat their husbands exactly the way you're being treated.

Women are encouraged to cheat, because they "owe it to themselves to find happiness" and all that crap. It's all about feelings.

She'll go to divorce court and get the house, pension, kids, and a huge monthly check from you, and you'll be living in a cheesy apartment someplace.

I think it's your duty to warn some of the young men, my age and younger, about the consequences of marrying a woman in the USA or Canada. Once it's all over and done with, I hope you will. There is literally no benefit to a man.

I am sorry for you, for what this culture has done to you. My own father was a slave for years, and my abusive mom made me take part in it. I still feel the guilt of her abuse. It's the sort of abuse that has become normal.

Be well, and do not blame yourself. You did nothing wrong. I hope for your safety and your children's well being.


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## disbelief

Your all right on several points the wrong filter was on th brain to mouth. Things might come to a head in the morning 
Someone remind me of the correct thing to say to children 12 and under when mommys leaving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So here's my moment woke up because my youngest came in. Can't sleep ticked off. Its in me rt now to finish gathering her stuff for her. With the thought of on the doorstep when she gets home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> Someone remind me of the correct thing to say to children 12 and under when mommys leaving.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's "Victim Thinking" and "Victim Talking". What you are saying is “I am a Victim”.

Bob


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## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> You are "causing" your own downfall by telling her how much you love her because you still don't see the simple, brutal logic of this situation. The more you say "I love you and always will" the more she hears "I will ALWAYS be willing to be your plan B". No matter WHAT ELSE you say during those conversations she hears you crying out "plan B, plan B, plan B".
> 
> Her constant little games with you - I call them "precipice dancing" where she threatens to throw the marriage off the edge of the "precipice" and you try to convince her not to - they are all the same. She is indirectly asking "Will you, oh will you be my plan B" and you are saying "YES YES YES".
> 
> The reason I have a great marriage - I am either PLAN A, or I am GONE. Very simple, very clear EVERYTHING I do during a precipice dance reinforces that message. And as my W starts thinking - damn - gone means - damn he will be with someone else within a year at most, at which point there is zero chance of recovery - she begins to frantically backpedal away from the edge of the cliff.
> 
> And PART of that is I NEVER, and I mean NEVER talk about how I feel during the dance. It is all about HER. So I say "If you don't want to be here - I think it is best for you to leave. You SHOULD leave. I don't want you to be unhappy". And the thing is I MEAN it. She knows me. I like chess and I don't play poker. I am not into bluffing. If I push ALL my chips to the middle of the table it means I have a straight flush.


I find it hard to understand how some just don’t get it no matter how many times they’re told.

The “refusal” and inability to do anything new, anything different is truly amazing.

Bob


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## disbelief

I am almost done packing her clothes. She should be home from her sisters mid morning
didn't mean to sound like a vivtim wasn't my thinking I was actually going over things to say to the kids.

That and the word of. Popeye keep going through my head " I've taken all I can stand, I can't stand no more"

But somebody tell me I am doing the right thing because I need to stand my ground and I can feel inside it's going to be hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Her clothes her bedding outside waiting. I feel like I am dealing with a teenager.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Good luck disbelief!

Stand firm. She is still in a fog and has rewritten your history in her head. 

Be prepared for the fireworks and waterworks. 

Do you have the speech to kids ready? Depending on what time mommy comes home there is no way they can miss the clothes on the porch. 

Give the little buggers some credit. They observe and know far more than what you realize too. 

God be with you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

The stuff is well out of sight it will be a movie morning.
Is this the tough love part?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Yes it is. Stand your ground for you and the kids. 

You've been living a half life for 7 months. 

It's time for her to put on her big girl britches and make a decision. 

You're helping her make that decision rather than continuing a half life with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

She has had time to think and should be ready to state whether she wants in or out. My guess is she will take out only becasue it's the easy path for her. It may take a few days or longer for the switch to flip in her head and for her to ask ask herself what the hell was she thinking. All you can do is wait and see what she does. I agree with AFEH in that you should not melt when the waterworks start. Just state she is making her choice. You don't want it to end but it can't continue the way it was. I don't buy into playing the kids into it with details. Just tell them mommy has decided she can't stay with dad. It's not what you wanted and you told her that but you can't tell mommy what to do. Be sure to reassure them that it is not in any way anything that they have done and mommy still loves them very much. Also tell them you will always be there for them and they will be safe. Enough said. Do not go into details or mention the OM. I know you have older stepson. IF he's in his mid 20's and mature enough, you could tell him she had an affair and is beside herself unwilling to try. Again - no details. Though I honestly believe that should be for her to do or stated only if he asks you. Where do think she will go?


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## 8yearscheating

another note, any discussions she has with the kids must be together with you. There is no reason for a private conversation and you need to know exactly what she is telling them because they are staying with you. You will need to be able to answer their questions after she leaves and you can't do that properly if you don't know exactly what said. This should not be optional.


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## disbelief

If she doesn't say she's not going today I think she will goto a hotel or sisters I have made very clear I want to save this it is her choice, so she doesn't want to do it my way at this point I asked her for her way I guess as much as it pains me again this has to happen.
Wouldn't psychology say since I am saying you are free go she will try to stay
but if I start telling her to stay she will go right isn't that the reality. I have to breathe pause and watch my words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Check you other thread. I left some comments there.


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## disbelief

Well she got home saw her stuff I walked out she was reading my brief here's your freedom note. At no point in the note did I kick her out because well legally I can't her names on ghe house.

She put her stuff in her truck. Said hi and bye to the kids said shell goto a hotel for a couple days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Wow. That's sad and cold. 

By the way - are you sure she was with her sister last night?

The thought just occurred to me. 

So - she said nothing to the kids? Wow. Double wow. 

Stay strong and let her walk. She needs to figure this out herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

disbelief said:


> Well she got home saw her stuff I walked out she was reading my brief here's your freedom note. At no point in the note did I kick her out because well legally I can't her names on ghe house.
> 
> She put her stuff in her truck. Said hi and bye to the kids said shell goto a hotel for a couple days.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You cannot legally kick her out, but you can change the locks.


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## disbelief

Well there's no guarantee, sis wont take my calls and will defend her anyway. OM was at home confirmed by OMW. 
She apologized for not calling says she was throwing up, believable for her 1 wrong mix and she's done. Doesn't change the effect it had on me. I explained 2 years ago it would have been different but for all I know she was out with some other man.
She did talk to the kids. She works nights so it masks how much she is abnormaly gone. She works tonight and gets home after they get on the bus.

Well I had to do something right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Disbelief, if you are anything like me you’ll see things much more clearly after a time of separation. When we’re together with our wife we’re totally enmeshed with “dysfunctional dynamics”. These are both emotionally and psychologically unhealthy dynamics. While separated these dynamics “drop off”. And then you’ll start “reflecting” on the previous conversations you’ve had with your wife and you’ll see them very differently. But it does take time, sometimes a lot of time.

Make the most of the time your wife is away from you. Get to know yourself better and work on any self improvement aspects about yourself that you feel drawn to. And of course continue taking care of your children.

This bits easy to say but difficult to carry out. Do not focus on what your wife is doing. That is wasted emotional and psychological energy and you need your energy for yourself and your children. Give your wife the longest piece of rope you are able. In fact have no rope at all. Let your wife “do what she must”, what she is drawn to do. In time she will make her own decision and that will be to either separate and divorce from you or to seek a reconciliation with you. Your wife needs time to come to her own conclusions and judgements.

Bob


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## disbelief

Thanks Bob
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

On the legal side of things when you talk with others in your circle just say you’ve both agreed to a trial separation.

Bob


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## F-102

Bravo, DB, you've taken action! I'm not saying to be cold hearted, but now she sees that you are serious, and that she will have to make a decision. Her "floor-looking" days are over.

Yes, the kids will suffer, there will be collateral damage. True, she may very well try to turn the kids and all family members against you, but they will find out the truth eventually, they will know the real story.

My only concern is that if she does come back, and there is a good chance that she won't (she may very well have the audacity to go looking for comfort from the OM), if she does, will you welcome her back with open arms? Or will you tell her that certain conditions must be met. The time for unconditional love has long since past, it actually passed when you both said "I Do".


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## disbelief

Unless OM is outright lying again to OMW he wants go fix M. Well guess who walked in 15 min ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

That was a couple of hours ago now. Is she still there?


----------



## disbelief

She just stopped back around. 140 EST. Son overheard our discussion, he's crying she's talking to him I am in ear shot and back and forth, with the other kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

disbelief said:


> She just stopped back around. 140 EST. Son overheard our discussion, he's crying she's talking to him I am in ear shot and back and forth, with the other kids.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stay in there with them.


----------



## disbelief

Went back in he didn't want to talk. This may have had the most profound affect on her because she keeps swearing the kids will be fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

F-102 said:


> Bravo, DB, you've taken action! I'm not saying to be cold hearted, but now she sees that you are serious, and that she will have to make a decision. Her "floor-looking" days are over.
> 
> Yes, the kids will suffer, there will be collateral damage. True, she may very well try to turn the kids and all family members against you, but they will find out the truth eventually, they will know the real story.
> 
> My only concern is that if she does come back, and there is a good chance that she won't (she may very well have the audacity to go looking for comfort from the OM), if she does, will you welcome her back with open arms? Or will you tell her that certain conditions must be met. The time for unconditional love has long since past, it actually passed when you both said "I Do".


Unconditional Love is fine.

Unconditional Relationship Stability = suicidal


----------



## Powerbane

disbelief said:


> Went back in he didn't want to talk. This may have had the most profound affect on her because she keeps swearing the kids will be fine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stay in there disbelief. Those kids need your stability. 

Tell her that if she's staying:
Full transparency
IC and MC for both of you
Any balking on her part she can hit the road
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

disbelief said:


> went back in he didn't want to talk. This may have had the most profound affect on her because she keeps swearing the kids will be fine.
> _posted via mobile device_


*stop worrying about her!*


----------



## disbelief

Gotcha powerbane, that was just an observation of her reaction Conrad. I don't worry about her anymore. I detatched that part.
sons ok he didn't actually hear much he knows he can talk to us I will remaiin stable. There is no other option!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Gone yet? Was this one of the younger kids or the oldest? Ask her what she said to him.


----------



## turnera

disbelief said:


> Well there's no guarantee, sis wont take my calls and will defend her anyway. OM was at home confirmed by OMW.
> *She apologized for not calling says she was throwing up, believable for her 1 wrong mix and she's done. Doesn't change the effect it had on me.* I explained 2 years ago it would have been different but for all I know she was out with some other man.
> She did talk to the kids. She works nights so it masks how much she is abnormaly gone. She works tonight and gets home after they get on the bus.
> 
> Well I had to do something right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just want to help you see the little pitfalls you are used to covering up for. I assume she was at her sisters' house, throwing up? Then a REAL wife would have said 'Sis, H will be worried I didn't come home. Will you call him and let him know I'm ok?'

But she didn't.


----------



## turnera

Did she leave?


----------



## F-102

"Look around, tell me what you see
What's happening to you and me,
God grant me the serenity...
To remember who I am."

"Well, you've given up your sanity,
For your pride and your vanity,
Turn your back on humanity...
And you don't give a damn."

From "Games People Play", by Joe South, 1969.

Look it up on Youtube, I think it's relevant here, and for TAM as well.


----------



## disbelief

turnera said:


> Just want to help you see the little pitfalls you are used to covering up for. I assume she was at her sisters' house, throwing up? Then a REAL wife would have said 'Sis, H will be worried I didn't come home. Will you call him and let him know I'm ok?'
> 
> But she didn't.


And thats was what pushed me over whatever edge I was on. Knowing all well she could have called texted or her sister could have. It was enough at 330 in the morning when my youngest wke me up to keep me up and start my day by packing her stuff. Still "fogged in I think"

She did apologize several times for not calling and i said thank you for that (I have manners) But i said do you not get it you don't understand what that does to me. You want trust??????????


----------



## disbelief

So my afternoon turned out OK. I am just catching up on messages and so on. W I think was most effected by my 12 Y/O reaction. She didn't get much from him, he didnt say much at all I was in the room most of the time. Maybe it will wake her up IDK. 
She left the second time after talking with the kids around 330-400PM, she only talked normal stuff with my other kids. Oldest wasn't home, I am pretty sure he knows the whole deal. Kids played outside had a good afternoon.

I took the kids to church for 5 she knew we were going she came back and sacked out on our basement couch. All her stuff is still in her truck. She is either sick hung over or emotionally/ physically ill, I am not worrying about her. I am acting as if she is at work therefore I am doing what I need to do which means disrupting her because she is in the room I need to keep going into Oh Well at this point.
She must have therefore called in sick for work.

So much for the hotel she was going to goto??

I didn't expect her to be here and quite simply couldn't bother confronting it getting 4 kids fed cleaned and to bed was more important.

Thats where I am at.
Not sure what I should do with tomorrow. 
Off day for me, she works the night so one place or another she will be sleeping all afternoon?


----------



## daison

I'm pretty sure I would wake her up and walk her to her truck. Or get her stuff from the truck, drive it to a hotel, get a room, throw all her stuff in it and then go back to the house and give her the key.


----------



## Powerbane

Keep going disbelief. 

We are not in your shoes and not in your situation. Do what you think is right. Continue to shake her - she needs to get off the fence. 
I would press the Retrovalle weekend or other couples retreat. She needs to committ or leave. I see you're also getting some good help elsewhere on how to handle this. Those folks are pretty spot on with their analysis. 


Still praying for you my Catholic Brother!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Yeah, you may need to be a little stronger than usual. In fact, if I were you, I'd ask a friend to come over, so he can help you 'help her' out of there. Don't do it by yourself because she may try to place the DV card to get to stay.


----------



## disbelief

She can play that card, I don't want to spend the money I would rather buy the kids a 4 awheeler or disney trip.

12 year old son brought some reality to that yesterday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

MEM,

Sticky this comment. This is the most direct and straightforward explanation about what manning up truly is. 



MEM11363 said:


> You are "causing" your own downfall by telling her how much you love her because you still don't see the simple, brutal logic of this situation. The more you say "I love you and always will" the more she hears "I will ALWAYS be willing to be your plan B". No matter WHAT ELSE you say during those conversations she hears you crying out "plan B, plan B, plan B".
> 
> Her constant little games with you - I call them "precipice dancing" where she threatens to throw the marriage off the edge of the "precipice" and you try to convince her not to - they are all the same. She is indirectly asking "Will you, oh will you be my plan B" and you are saying "YES YES YES".
> 
> The reason I have a great marriage - I am either PLAN A, or I am GONE. Very simple, very clear EVERYTHING I do during a precipice dance reinforces that message. And as my W starts thinking - damn - gone means - damn he will be with someone else within a year at most, at which point there is zero chance of recovery - she begins to frantically backpedal away from the edge of the cliff.
> 
> And PART of that is I NEVER, and I mean NEVER talk about how I feel during the dance. It is all about HER. So I say "If you don't want to be here - I think it is best for you to leave. You SHOULD leave. I don't want you to be unhappy". And the thing is I MEAN it. She knows me. I like chess and I don't play poker. I am not into bluffing. If I push ALL my chips to the middle of the table it means I have a straight flush.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

disbelief said:


> She can play that card, I don't want to spend the money I would rather buy the kids a 4 awheeler or disney trip.
> 
> 12 year old son brought some reality to that yesterday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 You're not understanding me. 

If someone tells her (or she just decides) that she doesn't HAVE to leave, well, she's a woman. All she has to do is call the police when you two are alone in the house, and say he's threatening to kill me, and bam! Out the door YOU go. Domestic violence is a slippery slope, my friend. One of the posters here had to leave his house, had to PAY for her to live there as well as his own house, and was not allowed to go there to visit his kids. The COURT ordered that, and there wasn't a damn thing he could do about it, justified or not.

Invite someone over if she's still there.


----------



## 8yearscheating

Hate to say it but there are too many folks creating somehting that is not there. She has shown no negative behaviour that woudl lead to Dis believing she would pull something like an abuse charge. If she does so be it, cross that bridge then. It seem like everyone forgets the main tennant of marriage is to do no harm. It applies to BOTH parties. If she ddn't leave, it would seem to me she is saying she wis willing to try. Not verbalized yet, but leaning that way. Let's throw gas on the fire...gee I wonder what will happen.


----------



## disbelief

turnera said:


> You're not understanding me.
> 
> If someone tells her (or she just decides) that she doesn't HAVE to leave, well, she's a woman. All she has to do is call the police when you two are alone in the house, and say he's threatening to kill me, and bam! Out the door YOU go. Domestic violence is a slippery slope, my friend. One of the posters here had to leave his house, had to PAY for her to live there as well as his own house, and was not allowed to go there to visit his kids. The COURT ordered that, and there wasn't a damn thing he could do about it, justified or not.
> 
> Invite someone over if she's still there.


Ahh Yeah! my bad brain malfunction read DV thought divorce not domestic violence. 

I will keep clear of that any heated discussion the droid has multiple recording capabilities.


----------



## disbelief

She is now stirring enough to send her back to this will never work, looking for me to say no don't go. Instead she got here's a synopsis, from me to her after all her negative statements. " sorry I was wrong, you must be right that I was a fool to think there was hope for this marriage, thank you for the compliment that I think I am the perfect dad and greater than everybody else in the world. So you want and need to move out the seasonal will be ready in a couple weeks then we can talk in september. I will prepare so I can help the kids adjust when you leave even though you say they will be fine" Thats the jist of it, i noticed several statements of her looking for "no please don't go"
But all my cards are on the table. I am prepared for her to leave. Are the kids NO, deal with it if I have to. 
I will not ask her to stay I need to remeber that. She cannot answer key questions like:
You have been saying you are going to leave so why aren't you gone yet? ????????????????

All her clothes still in her truck. She's still in the house sleeping for work.
I know kick her out, she'll call the cops and say she can legally be here, because she can. 

Thats it dont think there will be much else to post for a few days. Plan B go dark as I can, kids and events make it difficult.


----------



## 8yearscheating

Best plan I've heard. Your maintining your position and leaving the ball in her court where it belongs. You are being realistic in what you can and can't do. Start making a list of the things you need in seperation agreement and what you need to do to protect yourself financially. i.e. sperate bank and CC accounts. How she will pay child support and mortgage/home upkeep, etc. etc.. Those costs and expected date of payment should be in the seperation agreement along with visitation/custody of the kids. It may all be unnecessary, but it's better to have a plan. If she says she's definitely going, you then pull it out and start discussing it. It will also prepare you for the eventuality and if it's necessary, a dose of reality for her.


----------



## 8yearscheating

A comment to all the man up/ALPHA/take a hard line folks. How many of you can point to reconciled marriage that is progressing well? How many of you are divorced or seperated? Unless you are in the former category, how can you possibly state firmly your methods are successful? Is Disbeliefs situation EXACTLY like yours? Do you take the first rule of marriage as gospel "DO NO HARM"? DO you use head games to get what you want and is that a realistic way to build trust and confidence in a hope for reconciliation? I agree you need to take the right tact based on where your wayward spouse is - especially if they are in a fog. There also must a be a point where complete and total honesty replaces game playing. Yes disbelief needed to push her off the fence and he is.


----------



## MEM2020

8,
Do you think what I suggest is a type of "head game"?




8yearscheating said:


> A comment to all the man up/ALPHA/take a hard line folks. How many of you can point to reconciled marriage that is progressing well? How many of you are divorced or seperated? Unless you are in the former category, how can you possibly state firmly your methods are successful? Is Disbeliefs situation EXACTLY like yours? Do you take the first rule of marriage as gospel "DO NO HARM"? DO you use head games to get what you want and is that a realistic way to build trust and confidence in a hope for reconciliation? I agree you need to take the right tact based on where your wayward spouse is - especially if they are in a fog. There also must a be a point where complete and total honesty replaces game playing. Yes disbelief needed to push her off the fence and he is.


----------



## alphaomega

8yearscheating said:


> A comment to all the man up/ALPHA/take a hard line folks. How many of you can point to reconciled marriage that is progressing well? How many of you are divorced or seperated? Unless you are in the former category, how can you possibly state firmly your methods are successful? Is Disbeliefs situation EXACTLY like yours? Do you take the first rule of marriage as gospel "DO NO HARM"? DO you use head games to get what you want and is that a realistic way to build trust and confidence in a hope for reconciliation? I agree you need to take the right tact based on where your wayward spouse is - especially if they are in a fog. There also must a be a point where complete and total honesty replaces game playing. Yes disbelief needed to push her off the fence and he is.


We are not telling him to play head games. We are telling him to take a stand. His "unconditional love" approach hasn't worked, so it's time to stop being a doormat and stand up for HIS rights and happiness. If u read closely, she's the one playing head games with HIM. What do YOU do when someone is playing head games with you? You tell them...."OK! Enough is enough already! Make up your mind! "
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

MEM - from your post on the other page absolutely not. Alpha I agree - take a line and stick to it. Walk her to the truck, throw her out, put her **** in the street, those are games. Take a hard line, I agree completely and he's done that. He is letting her know he will not hold on forever and she has to make a decision. Worrying about whether she will call the cops on an abuse charge - worthless - if she is going to , she will. Going in eyes wide open and expecting the worse but hoping for the best helps you to maintain clarity. Changing the locks - again a game. Who in thier right mind would keep a mother from her children unless she was being truly abusive. People need to think about what they post and turn up the BS filter.


----------



## disbelief

As my grandmother always used to say everything happens for a reason.
I thank you all for the input dogpiling and defending me. It has led to some validation today she stated she sees the changed behavior with mh kids of course then she turned it into a negative.
she has gotten the ok make up your mind, it has caused her to be angry. But is that because she has to face reality because isn't anger a manifestation of another emotion? If this is like chess then I have made my move and now she needs to think over her next move.

I have pushed her I just wonder where she will fall?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 8yearscheating

Back to my key questions:
How many of you can point to reconciled marriage that is progressing well? How many of you are divorced or seperated?


----------



## 8yearscheating

Dis - she will have to think about it for a change instead of just pushing it to the back of her mind. Of course she will be angry and blame everyone else - thathas been what she has done from the beggining becuase she hasn't taken COMPLETE ownership of her actions. Give it time to sink completely. Looking in the mirror is not pretty for her right now.


----------



## Conrad

8yearscheating said:


> Back to my key questions:
> How many of you can point to reconciled marriage that is progressing well? How many of you are divorced or seperated?


I can point to mine.


----------



## alphaomega

8yearscheating said:


> Back to my key questions:
> How many of you can point to reconciled marriage that is progressing well? How many of you are divorced or seperated?


I'm not sure what you are expecting, but I can give an example from the "loving, caring" reaction to an affair.

I was loving and understanding. No help. Wife didnt want to end her affair. Took a harder stance, told her to leave (actually packed her stuff for her), started dating for a while, nothing serious. Wife saw this, knew I was moving on. Decided it would be good to work on the marriage. Was actually good for a while, but I got too soft again and too forgiving of her behaviors. She jumped right back into the EA because she knew there were no consequences. I guess if I was a little more firm in my boundaries with more manning up the second time around, the EA maybe wouldn't have rekindled.

This is the same reason and psychology of any law. Why doesn't everyone just go steal what they desire? Because you go to jail. No If's and maybes. ( at least in a perfect judicial system). That's why most of us don't even try. Same behavior concept as MEM was stating. If his SO even tempted the stability of the marriage, the law is broken and go straight to jail. Do not pass go. This is well understood in thier relationship, so the temptation isn't even there. Much the same as why most are not tempted to steal what they want.

Manning up isn't playing games. It's being so confident in your LAWS that both sides understand the consequences fully if those laws are broken, and the alpha male isn't bluffing. Break the law, suffer the consequences....even if that means the end of the relationship. Because a true confident alpha is not scared of the loss.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

8yearscheating said:


> Hate to say it but there are too many folks creating somehting that is not there. She has shown no negative behaviour that woudl lead to Dis believing she would pull something like an abuse charge. If she does so be it, cross that bridge then. It seem like everyone forgets the main tennant of marriage is to do no harm. It applies to BOTH parties. If she ddn't leave, it would seem to me she is saying she wis willing to try. Not verbalized yet, but leaning that way. Let's throw gas on the fire...gee I wonder what will happen.


 Um...all I said was to have another person in the house with him.


----------



## turnera

8yearscheating said:


> Worrying about whether she will call the cops on an abuse charge - worthless - if she is going to , she will.


Well, she can't, if someone else is hanging around as a witness. He doesn't have to push her, but he doesn't have to be stupid, either.


----------



## turnera

8yearscheating said:


> Back to my key questions:
> How many of you can point to reconciled marriage that is progressing well? How many of you are divorced or seperated?


 I remember one guy who, the day he found out, kicked his wife out of the house and said 'go get him; he's all yours.' Within 12 hours, she had dropped OM, asked to come home, and done every single thing he wanted to prove fidelity. Still together.

I can think of another one who found his wife on the floor of one of their rental properties, naked, with OM. He took a picture, grabbed their clothes, threw the clothes out into the street, and left. She came running, begging him to take her back. Still together.

Women cheat mainly because they want a man to be a man, and they see their husband as a wimp because he has bought into the house, kids, cleaning, carpooling thing, and he's no longer the exciting guy she married. Either that or the husband ignores her and the OM listens. 

If he was the former, manning up works. If he was the latter, listening and validating works.

Or a combination of both.


----------



## Powerbane

I think what turnera is trying to tell you is to show her you are the MAN! Show her you got the balls and the guts to follow thru!

Take care of yourself and have a witness even if it's your Droid doing the recording.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

I am considering a mass mailing of the manning up info to every guy I know and business cards for every guy I meet. 
No man talked to me about this stuff growing up there was no college class on it.
somebody cuts off there arm I know how to save them but I was clueless as to my wifes needs

Hind sight is 20/20. And it hurts too
I thought my marriage was good up until 10 months ago when I started asking her what was wrong, ya know I am sure its familiar to y'all never got the I am unhappy or things need to change god forbid a direct statement .........vent......!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

With all that said I could probably find an apartment for her in about 20 min on craigs list
not to hard to print that out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Powerbane

disbelief said:


> With all that said I could probably find an apartment for her in about 20 min on craigs list
> not to hard to print that out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do it brother!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Dis,
Who is the primary bread winner?





disbelief said:


> As my grandmother always used to say everything happens for a reason.
> I thank you all for the input dogpiling and defending me. It has led to some validation today she stated she sees the changed behavior with mh kids of course then she turned it into a negative.
> she has gotten the ok make up your mind, it has caused her to be angry. But is that because she has to face reality because isn't anger a manifestation of another emotion? If this is like chess then I have made my move and now she needs to think over her next move.
> 
> I have pushed her I just wonder where she will fall?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Since she just got a signifigant pay raise her base pay is higher than my base monthly income.
She can easily pick up overtime I cannot (one of those contribiting A factors she didn't let on to)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

OK not hanging on her every word but I am not a psyche guy. 
So I am holding my line tough love style. Pushed her with the packing but didnt shove her back out the door when i came home to her sleeping in the far reaches of the basement. And we got into it again this morning and I just stayed on go ahead leave, no backing down for me (yeah usually I back down). To my point, I think this action peeled a layer.

I have been trying to determine where her fear of me using the kids against her or trying to keep them from her originates. Well she actually spoke of it and some EA stuff before leaving for work. 
For those who don't know OM was "best friend" was. Sadly also BIL. Turns out OMW has been threatening kids against OM if he leaves or so he had told my W. So my W is convinced I will do the same and i believe is acting over some things from a place of fear.

She said she is really waiting for our seasonal to open so she can just go there. Says she needs time away from me so she can stop being mad at me. Seasonal is futher away from OM than home is. I also said give me 5 minutes i will have an apartment for you on craigslist. Her response a defensive no I don't want that.

So thinking out my next move? So what dos that WW speak really mean?


----------



## 8yearscheating

She wants time to think. What she couldn't have thought about in all these months except the obvious which is introspection I don't know. She does
Not know what she wants. Ask her what she hopes to come from time away. What are her goals for it? Side note, sent you 2 mags I'd appreciate your opinion on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Dis,
For the moment she isn't going anywhere. If you can pull this off it will be good for YOU.
1. STOP engaging in any conversation with her unless it is about the kids/or your schedules
2. STOP allowing her to discuss the relationship with you. Don't get mad - don't yell. Just hold up your hand and smile - shake your head no and say "lets limit our discussions to the kids/and our schedules". If she persists - just shrug and walk away. 
3. Be upbeat and happy when you are with the kids
4. If you take the kids anywhere do NOT invite her. Just get used to it being you and them. 

This is called LC - limited communication and you really need to do it. And she will likely try to get a reaction from you. She will say things that would make a normal person upset. Just recognize that it is a blatant attempt to manipulate you - laugh it off - end the conversation and move on. 

Be polite. If she says hello - say hello back - friendly tone. But firmly discourage any idle chit chat. Just stick with "it is best to limit our conversations to the kids and schedules".




disbelief said:


> OK not hanging on her every word but I am not a psyche guy.
> So I am holding my line tough love style. Pushed her with the packing but didnt shove her back out the door when i came home to her sleeping in the far reaches of the basement. And we got into it again this morning and I just stayed on go ahead leave, no backing down for me (yeah usually I back down). To my point, I think this action peeled a layer.
> 
> I have been trying to determine where her fear of me using the kids against her or trying to keep them from her originates. Well she actually spoke of it and some EA stuff before leaving for work.
> For those who don't know OM was "best friend" was. Sadly also BIL. Turns out OMW has been threatening kids against OM if he leaves or so he had told my W. So my W is convinced I will do the same and i believe is acting over some things from a place of fear.
> 
> She said she is really waiting for our seasonal to open so she can just go there. Says she needs time away from me so she can stop being mad at me. Seasonal is futher away from OM than home is. I also said give me 5 minutes i will have an apartment for you on craigslist. Her response a defensive no I don't want that.
> 
> So thinking out my next move? So what dos that WW speak really mean?


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

turnera said:


> Women cheat mainly because they want a man to be a man, and they see their husband as a wimp because he has bought into the house, kids, cleaning, carpooling thing, and he's no longer the exciting guy she married. Either that or the husband ignores her and the OM listens.


Does anyone other than me see anything wrong about this? Does any of those seem like a reason to break your vows to God and husband? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Of course this seems wrong to a logical mind, but we are dealing with women. Logic does not always apply. Women crave excitement, emotional instability and mystery. If they aren't getting it in little doses all the time they get bored... believe me, I know this first hand...


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Of course this seems wrong to a logical mind, but we are dealing with women. Logic does not always apply. Women crave excitement, emotional instability and mystery. If they aren't getting it in little doses all the time they get bored... believe me, I know this first hand...


If you want excitement, rent a movie. I mean, where does this come from? Who promised you an exciting life? Although tomorrow isn't promised, life is long and boring. As Chris Rock said in "I Think I Love My Wife," you probably won't get hit by a bus. I just don't get why a husband gets punished for being a husband but, if he acts like the opposite, he gets all the love and devotion in the world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Does anyone other than me see anything wrong about this? Does any of those seem like a reason to break your vows to God and husband?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Of course it's wrong. But it's also all around you. Best to understand your enemy than to pretend it doesn't exist.


----------



## disbelief

Wish I had understood a few years ago because it starts long before it surfaces.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Yes it does.

That is why I always state to people that you MUST keep communication open, safe, and productive. The INSTANT one of you feels unsafe to tell your spouse what you're thinking, and holds it in or lies, you've just slid down that slope into the mud pit. VERY hard to climb out.


----------



## disbelief

The greatest gift I can give out of this is to educate thos younger than me, even if that means offending them when you say everyone is capable of an affair. I was naive I believed my W never would, when we first got married I think I was rt, something changed she didn't express the issue so here we are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Limited contact yup have a meeting for a child have sports and stuff for kids limited contact is alot of contact when juggling 4 young ones
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

turnera said:


> Yes it does.
> 
> That is why I always state to people that you MUST keep communication open, safe, and productive. The INSTANT one of you feels unsafe to tell your spouse what you're thinking, and holds it in or lies, you've just slid down that slope into the mud pit. VERY hard to climb out.


It's not always that way. And isn't that hindsight vision just always 20/20.

Bob


----------



## turnera

Huh?


----------



## disbelief

MEM,
Following your LC advice, whenever she gets a tone I ignore it and if the conversation about say who is picking up the kids is not over I continue on like she said nothing.

Now if only I had the emotional fortitude to have done this on Dday.

So my question at the moment is .......When this LC course of action is chosen what might the return behavior from my W in this case be?

Thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

I have no idea. And you don't either. So my sincere advice is this: Start designing your future life without her in it. There are two steps to that:
1. Who do you want to be? Clearly you want to be a guy whose top priorities are his kids and career. And if/when some woman fits into that in a complementary way, she will be a nice amplifier to a happy life. 
2. Start thinking about the type of woman you might be compatible with. As part of that stop thinking about your deceitful, game playing wife who wants you to be her safety net. 

If your W wants to screw her life up and leave you, nothing you can do about that. Stay with LC. If she attempts to discuss the relationship - change the subject. Trust me - if she wants to promote you to plan A, she will take you to bed. Anything else is just silly little manipulation games - do not play them. 

BTW - she will make some overtures to you. Likely an empty apology or two. Just ignore them as if she said nothing. LET HER get anxious. If she gets anxious - and likely angry with you for not reassuring her - then we can revisit how you interact with her. But be clear on this - if she can easily obtain your forgiveness and support with minimal effort you will be convincing her that you are fine being Plan B, and Plan B you will be. If you let her melt down and don't rescue her - whole different story. That means no hugs, no - "don't worry it is going to be all right" speeches by you. Just stone cold silence and leaving the room. 






disbelief said:


> MEM,
> Following your LC advice, whenever she gets a tone I ignore it and if the conversation about say who is picking up the kids is not over I continue on like she said nothing.
> 
> Now if only I had the emotional fortitude to have done this on Dday.
> 
> So my question at the moment is .......When this LC course of action is chosen what might the return behavior from my W in this case be?
> 
> Thanks
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

You never really 'had' her in your life anyway. She was just on the ride with you, for as long as she wanted to. Just as she never had YOU. We each make our own decisions. Work on getting that down, and you'll feel much safer, no matter what happens.


----------



## disbelief

MEM11363 said:


> I have no idea. And you don't either. So my sincere advice is this: Start designing your future life without her in it. There are two steps to that:
> 1. Who do you want to be? Clearly you want to be a guy whose top priorities are his kids and career. And if/when some woman fits into that in a complementary way, she will be a nice amplifier to a happy life.
> 2. Start thinking about the type of woman you might be compatible with. As part of that stop thinking about your deceitful, game playing wife who wants you to be her safety net.
> 
> If your W wants to screw her life up and leave you, nothing you can do about that. Stay with LC. If she attempts to discuss the relationship - change the subject. Trust me - if she wants to promote you to plan A, she will take you to bed. Anything else is just silly little manipulation games - do not play them.
> 
> BTW - she will make some overtures to you. Likely an empty apology or two. Just ignore them as if she said nothing. LET HER get anxious. If she gets anxious - and likely angry with you for not reassuring her - then we can revisit how you interact with her. But be clear on this - if she can easily obtain your forgiveness and support with minimal effort you will be convincing her that you are fine being Plan B, and Plan B you will be. If you let her melt down and don't rescue her - whole different story. That means no hugs, no - "don't worry it is going to be all right" speeches by you. Just stone cold silence and leaving the room.


Got it, thanks,I was just thinking cause and effect earlier and just having this point of view in my head will help me not react to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

turnera said:


> You never really 'had' her in your life anyway. She was just on the ride with you, for as long as she wanted to. Just as she never had YOU. We each make our own decisions. Work on getting that down, and you'll feel much safer, no matter what happens.


I like that point of view. Random thought, Do you spouse promise to take other spouse so long as you both feel like being along for the ride together? .........congratulations enjoy your future together revocable at anytime. Put that in the vows I bet there will be alot of I Dont's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

disbelief said:


> Got it, thanks,I was just thinking cause and effect earlier and just having this point of view in my head will help me not react to her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As Deejo often says, "This process will change your view of women forever."


----------



## disbelief

I think it already has.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

disbelief said:


> I think it already has.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't we just take them right off that pedestal we put them on.

Bob


----------



## ManDup

8yearscheating said:


> Back to my key questions:
> How many of you can point to reconciled marriage that is progressing well? How many of you are divorced or seperated?


Allow me. I was a beta wimp, like so many. I went through the months of waffling, never daring to take a stand, to be a man. I tried to be nicer and nicer until it became intolerable. Eventually, it came down to a simple ultimatum. Her or me. No more cake and eat it too. I stood by this boundary without wavering, and never accepted any further waffling or backsliding, and never looked back. I'm happy to report that I now have a marriage which is progressing nicely, with the hottest sex of my life, and no more fear of raising conflicts or losing her. If it happens it happens, but it seems unlikely now; of course all relationships end eventually.

That marriage is to another woman, but does that make it not a success story for manning up? I'm happy, my new wife is happy, my ex is happy with her ***** lover, what's not to like? Just by the by, my ex never got serious about reconciling with me (which I politely declined) until I filed for divorce. No rational argument, no "you're going to be living on about 1/4 the income you've gotten used to", no "the kids lives will be ruined", no "It's the fair and right thing to do, like you promised years ago" got me anywhere close to that.


----------



## disbelief

It all seems like a bad movie. Bit by bit I see the original copy of my wife returning, however if we begin real work on reconciling I will have to work hard to stick to my boundaries and needs in order to work through this without a repeat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Do you have your boundaries written down, on paper? Do that asap. Think through your life and realize what you're not willing to scrimp on, just to keep a wife.

Actually, Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. is a great book for doing that.

Anyway, knowing your boundaries and being able to refer back to them on paper is a great way to keep yourself on track.


----------



## MEM2020

Dis,
How good are you at non-verbal communication?

Do you have a short list of "canned" responses that you use when she is being unreasonable? If so I am curious as to what they are?




disbelief said:


> It all seems like a bad movie. Bit by bit I see the original copy of my wife returning, however if we begin real work on reconciling I will have to work hard to stick to my boundaries and needs in order to work through this without a repeat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

I would have to say no I don't. 

Her behavior is changing of course a couple of days isn't much of anything but I had a great. Day to myself yesterday and kids have sports today the sun's out so no matter what she is doing pr how this works out I am going to create for myself a more posotive attitude than ever.

Then thers the Horoscope : May 7:
A door is opening -- stick your foot in to keep it from closing.
This horoscope has been pretty on throughout this lousy chapter of life and oddly enough her behavior reflects it today, but don't worry I remain on guard, limited contact and will not fall for false recovery.
MC thursday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Feeling like I might print up D Papers. Thought packing the bags would get her to state her position but No. MC thursday. Act between now and noon tomorrow or just ignore her until Thursday.

Don't need a dogpile, but constructive criticism from those who succesfully reconciled would be great.


----------



## Deejo

I have said this many times, sadly, to many people. I do believe you will get to the place you need to go. But you aren't there.

You are operating from a place of hoping she will change. Your formula is backwards. Reconciliation with your wife is not the goal. From my perspective, _it can't_ be the goal. For as long as that is what you hold onto, you can't reach the goal.

You ... are the goal. Changing how you look at, approach, respond to, and feel about what you want, expect and deserve from your life, and from the woman you give your heart to.

Make that change, reach that goal, and then reconciliation with your wife becomes a possible outcome. It's a by-product of the result, not the result itself. It becomes a choice, and decision you make, based on your changes, not hers. One that you see as viable and desirable, or one that is untenable and you reject. Either way, you win, because it will be the right decision for you.

I don't think you feel that way. Not yet. And I can understand that.

You keep hoping that she will 'see', based upon your threats and actions. She doesn't. She won't. That is why this is no longer about what she says or does. It's about what you say or do. And that is how this will end, one way or the other ... with what you say and do.


----------



## disbelief

That does help Deejo, thanks,


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> I have said this many times, sadly, to many people. I do believe you will get to the place you need to go. But you aren't there.
> 
> You are operating from a place of hoping she will change. Your formula is backwards. Reconciliation with your wife is not the goal. From my perspective, _it can't_ be the goal. For as long as that is what you hold onto, you can't reach the goal.
> 
> You ... are the goal. Changing how you look at, approach, respond to, and feel about what you want, expect and deserve from your life, and from the woman you give your heart to.
> 
> Make that change, reach that goal, and then reconciliation with your wife becomes a possible outcome. It's a by-product of the result, not the result itself. It becomes a choice, and decision you make, based on your changes, not hers. One that you see as viable and desirable, or one that is untenable and you reject. Either way, you win, because it will be the right decision for you.
> 
> I don't think you feel that way. Not yet. And I can understand that.
> 
> You keep hoping that she will 'see', based upon your threats and actions. She doesn't. She won't. That is why this is no longer about what she says or does. It's about what you say or do. And that is how this will end, one way or the other ... with what you say and do.


Don,

I'm there right now too.

The beyatch won't even make me a sandwich without resentment.

Precipice dance.


----------



## disbelief

Well told mine to decide the subject for MC seperation, divorce or how to work it out. I may decide for us. She is behaving like a teenager. I am reaching my limit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

disbelief said:


> I am reaching my limit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can't reach your limit until you have set one.

Decide for you ... right now there is no 'us'. You need to understand that she is thinking along these lines as well. If she chooses to stay? It will be for her ... not for you. You need to get your head around that.


----------



## disbelief

Gotcha perceiving from that angle is becoming easier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

One of the biggest things in all this is ACCEPTANCE. I don’t mean acceptance by way of approval, not that at all. But just pure and simply Acceptance as in “What you see is what you get. What you see is very real”.

Refusing to accept things as they are (by calling it the fog) but instead trying to change them or hope they will change is I believe the biggest barrier to Accepting things as they are right now. But there is absolutely no moving forward until utter and complete Acceptance. Why? Because without acceptance you spin your wheels and burn up energy but get absolutely nowhere.

People change and sometimes the change is dramatic. If we don’t accept the person they’ve changed into, who they’ve become through their own life experiences, then we live with a person from the past. And in that way we cease to live with the person they changed into. The only way we can live with the person they’ve become, the person they are today is to ACCEPT them for the person the represent right now. If we don’t do that then we delude ourselves. Delusion is a serious form of mental illness. If you think you’re going mad during these times, you probably are. Once you ACCEPT the person for who they are now (warts and all) massive changes come about, almost on their own accord.


Another thing I learnt is that everybody on the planet does what they do for their own very selfish reasons. This includes the things your wife does and the things you do. Those selfish reasons, based on our core values and beliefs, either create a happy and harmonious marriage or they tear it apart.

Bob


----------



## disbelief

Point taken AFEH. I think I just had another minor revelation. My W finally admitted to being scared of being married "long before the A" but she can't pinpoint when. She is finally talking again.

That being said this situation is what it is i see it for that. Perhaps the stumbling block of pushing real hard is that we both have the following in common. Neither one of us no longer want to see the other hurt. We don't want to see the kids hurt and at this point we are both scared of "marriage". Let's see then we have this thing stripped down to the base of the foundation everything is exposed or could be. But neither one of us want to push each other out the door. Hmmm????
But her talking comes after I put my foot down????
I still see her behavior as working from a place of fear?

I guess my problem is I see my family as the greater good. My marriage is only part of my family. Many spokes on the wheel. 

She took responsibility for the A again today.

MC Thursday

Minor venting here.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> You can't reach your limit until you have set one.
> 
> Decide for you ... right now there is no 'us'. You need to understand that she is thinking along these lines as well. If she chooses to stay? It will be for her ... not for you. You need to get your head around that.


Funny thing is, you know it when it hits you in the face.

Nothing is the same after that.


----------



## AFEH

Deejo said:


> It will be for her ... not for you. You need to get your head around that.


I think that’s one of life’s biggest lessons that many fail to learn. In that everybody on the planet, including our self, is ultimately selfish. I also think that when we recognise and accept this “pure selfishness” we become somewhat more enlightened about life and human nature.

Selflessness simply doesn’t exist. If it did, then the “self” would not exist. To “be selfless” is an absolute impossibility. Unless of course we’re dead.

Bob


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## AFEH

Deejo said:


> You can't reach your limit until you have set one.


Aye that'll be a boundary.


----------



## disbelief

And when you feel that boundary has been crossed and you are pushed again the same technology that makes affairs so easy allows you to get the legal forms you decide you need.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Good for you. Do the paperwork, lay it out there to show her your serious and then wait. You have your balls Dis. DOn't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Keep the faith!


----------



## disbelief

Its gonna be a rough morning
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Why?


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## disbelief

Stupid is stupid does. Confronted an issue, the answer was logical. However I have D papers and seperation papers typed up and ready to go. I am enforcing my boundary. The issue from our PM Sunday.
She doesn't get it yet she doesn't get the triggers.
I will watch the issue and act futher if I need to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Steady as she goes my good man. Don't try reading between the lines. Take it at face value for now. Remember, it takes time for her to begin to look beyond herself in the self pity mode. As her love begins to regrow, it will come. My wife is STILL just beggining to think more and more about me and my feelings and reactions and what triggers me. She was blown away when i called her last week when she left for work way early. I knew why but it still triggered me. I sent her this text to remind her:
"I understand dear. Some things are triggers and that is one of them. I do trust you. In order to stop myself from continuing to worry and spinning out of control, it's best for me hear your voice. I'm high maintenance sometimes. I do my best to confront my fears and 99% of the time you even know I had a problem. I do that so you don't worry or feel like I don't trust you. Sometimes like the other day it works against us because you can't understand why I'm suddenly off. Fear and pain go together at those times and my fight or flight and self protection mode kicks in. Please try to be patient with me and hold me tight"

There was more. Go look up the song and lyrics by Incubus called Dig. After explaining to her why you reacted, send her the lyrics and song from youtube. She has to help you and be more cognizant and understanding of your needs. She will eventually. Right now she's still at the pity party.


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## F-102

Good Luck!


----------



## ManDup

8yearscheating said:


> "I do trust you."


Why on earth do you trust her, when she cheated? Trust is earned by trustworthy behavior over a long time. It's not a "trigger", it's a direct consequence of earlier action that you now don't trust her, even when you know the reason. 

Seems to me that just as you have to live with the fact that she ran around, she has to live with the fact that you don't trust her. Don't apologize for it. It's a fact. If you someday reach a point where you really do trust her, you won't have to have these conversations.


----------



## AFEH

8yearscheating said:


> Steady as she goes my good man. Don't try reading between the lines. Take it at face value for now. Remember, it takes time for her to begin to look beyond herself in the self pity mode. As her love begins to regrow, it will come. My wife is STILL just beggining to think more and more about me and my feelings and reactions and what triggers me. She was blown away when i called her last week when she left for work way early. I knew why but it still triggered me. I sent her this text to remind her:
> "I understand dear. Some things are triggers and that is one of them. I do trust you. In order to stop myself from continuing to worry and spinning out of control, it's best for me hear your voice. I'm high maintenance sometimes. I do my best to confront my fears and 99% of the time you even know I had a problem. I do that so you don't worry or feel like I don't trust you. Sometimes like the other day it works against us because you can't understand why I'm suddenly off. Fear and pain go together at those times and my fight or flight and self protection mode kicks in. Please try to be patient with me and hold me tight"
> 
> There was more. Go look up the song and lyrics by Incubus called Dig. After explaining to her why you reacted, send her the lyrics and song from youtube. She has to help you and be more cognizant and understanding of your needs. She will eventually. Right now she's still at the pity party.


8yearscheating, if you have PTSD it is very serious stuff.

I had it but I’m way better now. Still, I know I’ll be triggered just by seeing my wife so I don’t go there. How on earth you’re getting through it is way beyond me.

Bob


----------



## turnera

ManDup said:


> Why on earth do you trust her, when she cheated? Trust is earned by trustworthy behavior over a long time. It's not a "trigger", it's a direct consequence of earlier action that you now don't trust her, even when you know the reason.
> 
> Seems to me that just as you have to live with the fact that she ran around, she has to live with the fact that you don't trust her. Don't apologize for it. It's a fact. If you someday reach a point where you really do trust her, you won't have to have these conversations.


 I agree. Why do BSs think they have to show trust, to keep their wayward? BS!


----------



## 8yearscheating

Again Mandup - you don't now my situation. We have been reconciling for about 2 1/2 months. She ahs displayed all of the necessary behaviors for me to strt rebuilding trust. SHe let's me know when she is going to be late and where/why she is. She let me know why she was leaving early and I could see she was where she said she was. She is remorseful and understanding of my needs. I have issues I and mean I have to deal with - she helps but can't fix them for me. She is going through a number of major physical/health crisies right now and I have to be some what self sufficient to not add to extreme stress level - she is going in for catherization and stents on her heart in a week.
Yes she needs to know what I'm doing to protect her and help myself and be thankful for it - that was the part of the message I didn't write. 

In summary, ask questions. Don't challenge or degrade me for something you don't know all the facts on. WE ARE DOING GREAT!


----------



## 8yearscheating

Yes AFEH, know all about PTSD and am workign through with the help of my IC. Confronting each of those triggers. Understanding why I react and reasoning/confronting my way through them. Do that enough and they begin to subside which they are day by day. The number one help is to stop the spinning out of control when it starts - usually be hearing her voice or talking with her and she assures me my fears are unfounded by proving what I fear is not happening.


----------



## 8yearscheating

Pile on with Mandup Tunera. Your in the same boat as he is. And Tunera, if you never trust again - would you expect your WS to want to stay with you? Who couldlive a life of constantly being beat on for their mistakes? My main marriage rule - do no harm - treat your spouse as you would want to be treated. Put yourself in their shoes once in a while.


----------



## AFEH

8yearscheating said:


> Yes AFEH, know all about PTSD and am workign through with the help of my IC. Confronting each of those triggers. Understanding why I react and reasoning/confronting my way through them. Do that enough and they begin to subside which they are day by day. The number one help is to stop the spinning out of control when it starts - usually be hearing her voice or talking with her and she assures me my fears are unfounded by proving what I fear is not happening.


I can see how that will work, good luck.

Bob


----------



## turnera

8years, you've been out of the affair scene for, what? Three months? In my experience on forums like this, I typically see a wayward break down and recontact the AP an average of 2 or 3 times, within a 12-18-month period. 

I also typically see, when a wayward 'sees the light,' they are either reticent to go along with the 'restrictions,' or else they are gung ho, as your wife is, which usually lasts around 3 months. Then the euphoria of having admitted, made changes, and gotten glowing reports from their BS starts to fade, and they're left thinking. A lot. That's when the recontact often occurs. 

I'm not singling you out as being stupid to trust. I'm saying that it is in a marriage's best interests to trust...but verify. For at least a year.


----------



## turnera

btw, I'm usually the main champion around here for putting yourself in your WS's shoes. But that doesn't mean you should expect them to clear the fog out of their head immediately. I think you're doing a great job; I just hope you don't get blindsided when she's having a down day and needs to 'hear' him.


----------



## disbelief

ManDup said:


> Why on earth do you trust her, when she cheated? Trust is earned by trustworthy behavior over a long time. It's not a "trigger", it's a direct consequence of earlier action that you now don't trust her, even when you know the reason.
> 
> Seems to me that just as you have to live with the fact that she ran around, she has to live with the fact that you don't trust her. Don't apologize for it. It's a fact. If you someday reach a point where you really do trust her, you won't have to have these conversations.


I don't trust mine.


----------



## disbelief

turnera said:


> btw, I'm usually the main champion around here for putting yourself in your WS's shoes. But that doesn't mean you should expect them to clear the fog out of their head immediately. I think you're doing a great job; I just hope you don't get blindsided when she's having a down day and needs to 'hear' him.


The fog ie= the real developed emotion of i fell in love withOM while still married and I didnt mean to.
Now i have to deal with that and i (DS/WW) actually dont want to hurt you never meant to but I was stupid foolish..........

A summary of things she has said and I have discovered, the way my W and i loved each other was not the classic falling in love. I dont think. 
I only had that once. I was a teenager.

I think she experienced that for the first tim in the A. She will never admit it I am sure but, 2+2=4.

Shoot me down build me up I get strength to work so hard for this from my kids. 
If I had met her in a bar it may be different but we were also friends for almost 10 Years before we had a relationship.

Is there not a greater good and don't things come full circle. 

No matter how this ends up i learn more everyday and wish I knew all this 10 years ago.


----------



## 8yearscheating

I hear you Tunera and I do trust but verify. So is Dis and this is his thread so I will shut up now.


----------



## disbelief

Ya know what we can all go back and forth over any subject disagreeing or agreeing but I feel worse for those not seeking any help any information and just being stuck. No matter how it comes out this forum has it's benefits or we would all be in our own little fish bowls ........ anyways.

Marriage Counselor tomorrow, Slam me with the manned up version or any reminder of a better way to do it.


----------



## disbelief

She will not prove to me she doesn't have a second cell phone. I said lie by omission. I handed her the options divorce and seperation papers. There the MC appointment subject. Told her she should head to our seasonal place come monday when I get home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Wow. Good for you.


----------



## disbelief

Lets just add to my disbelief
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 8yearscheating

When you go to MC, thank her if she's honest and keep your cool. Remember that no matter how it turns out, ugly is not the way. Let her speak. Listen and reflect it back. Then restate your requirements and your direction based on what she says. If that's separation and divorce in set period make the statement and then quit talking. Be prepared to hear all the same excuses and BS she has already said. Don't respond beyond your stuck and I'm moving on.


----------



## Powerbane

Keep your cool Brother D!

I hope she actually shows up at the MC tomorrow!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

8yearscheating said:


> Be prepared to hear all the same excuses and BS she has already said. Don't respond beyond your stuck and I'm moving on.


 Yep.


----------



## disbelief

I hate this. 
Listening to a BAN teleseminar for BS now.


----------



## disbelief

Powerbane said:


> Keep your cool Brother D!
> 
> I hope she actually shows up at the MC tomorrow!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL ahhhrrrrgggghh! yup


----------



## disbelief

1 Husband + 1 MC+ 1 Stubborn Woman = seperation
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Powerbane

disbelief said:


> 1 Husband + 1 MC+ 1 Stubborn Woman = seperation
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh man - it might be what she needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

I am at the point of needing it. I don't know if I will ever really get my head around the whole thing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Powerbane

That's true this stuff can really screw with your head. Don't get sucked down the rabbit hole with her. 

I hope you mean it's her leaving right? Those kids need you more right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Good point. Whatever you do, it should not be YOU leaving the house!


----------



## disbelief

Agreed I stay! Just talked with my IC he gave me the u are waiting for her to act, yeah I keep telling her to go and she doesn't? He played devils advocate said you go, nope no way. Still sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

My kids pick awesome times to need mom and dad!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 8yearscheating

Always, they sense the stress and anxiety and react to it! Are you doing oK? When is your appointment? Be sure to call me when you can after it and talk it out - no matter what happens!


----------



## disbelief

My IC appointment was 2 hours after nexr mc in 2 weeks and my IC. She just opened up some more, wether the M works or not this is still stuff we need to talk about. I am ok was angry earlier now I am ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

So seperation is developing more into that she didn't remember me agreeing to it then she got all upset over it she is off with one child for the weekend I have three I am LC, writing up a new seperation agreement to discuss this week at MC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

Uh-huh...she's STILL trying to "bad-guy" you.


----------



## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Uh-huh...she's STILL trying to "bad-guy" you.


Maybe .......maybe not. After some of the guilt and apology statements in the last week I think she just cant process it and she is not getting help. MC tomorrow. Subject matter ......seperation.

She is staying at our seasonal. I am limiting contact. All contact has been made first by her.


----------



## disbelief

The plan is to seperate, agreement made up discussed at MC. On That note why does a woman cry and get angry when you agree to give her what she wants ie:seperation?
The more I agree on seperation, display my confidence the more time we have limited contact = She calls and texts me more. She picks up son this morning and is flirty with me and very engaging with me. 
So yeah seperation. 5 kids .........there's still alot of interaction.


----------



## turnera

Maybe because that's not what she really wanted?


----------



## disbelief

Well maybe, but I guess she is going to have to prove that now. I am not chasing her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

disbelief said:


> The plan is to seperate, agreement made up discussed at MC. On That note why does a woman cry and get angry when you agree to give her what she wants ie:seperation?
> The more I agree on seperation, display my confidence the more time we have limited contact = She calls and texts me more. She picks up son this morning and is flirty with me and very engaging with me.
> So yeah seperation. 5 kids .........there's still alot of interaction.


Simple: she wanted you to cave in and beg and plead. Then she would be in control of the situation.


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## 8yearscheating

Don't guess why, ASK.


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## disbelief

well I asked and the Question So if the seperation is what you WANT, why do you get upset and cry?

"It is what i (pause) think is best (avoiding the word want here) for right now. It is unfair for me to cause you or anybody else more pain. So I will go and suffer on my own.... it is still not easy it is like going to get a root canal painful but needs to be done"

HMMMM?! ok alrighty then!

Have a good weekend all!!


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## turnera

Waa waa


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## StrugglingMan

Sounds like she is still on the fence and trying to keep you in limbo. Don't let her. Stay the course, you're doing great.


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## 8yearscheating

She wouldn't say want. She wants to be rescued. But if you do, it had better be with the stipulation she still needs to work through it until she understands why. I'd call that a cry for help and forgiveness.


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## disbelief

Perhaps that is what she wants. She also txtd tonight thanking me for letting hr go out to our seasonal I didn't respond I would have opened some can of worms by saying more than less. Not hanging on waiting for her if anyone has that impression. Went out with my kids tonight had fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

wow a month since i posted here. I have been increasing intensity on her on since we have "agreed" to seperate making it real, reminding her she must talk to the kids, giving her a real seperation agreement, stickingh to my guns on the fact that she cant reconcile with the intense relationship discussion and I said well I cannot without transparency. So initially she was going to run errands and stay out for the night at her temp arrangement. I stuck to it and just calmly said fine then you are doing all that we can write up an a divorce agreement have it notarized with mediation and goto court next week. She challenged me on that. I stuck to it. 
Her normal gone for the night stuff is still here. I needed to vent so I can go have fun with the kids. Her divorce filing expired I got a copy of the dismissal when I went to the courthouse, almost filed myself. .........Don't want to spend the money. I would rather spend it on something happy for the kids.

So I need some encouragement here. If even just to remain true to myself.


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## Conrad

Stay the course.

If she sees you waver.... all is lost.


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## 8yearscheating

File Disbelief. Get an attorney and have him draw up a negotiated settlement. You must be hitting your limit. She will either drop off the fence or it will go through. Take control of your life and take it back, with or without her. You have put in more than a valiant effort. Time to lock and load and either she does or she doesn't. As always your call, JMHO. I'm tired of feeling the pain, I can't imagine where you are other than numb.


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## Powerbane

Totally agree DB. 

File and remember just because you file, you can always stop it. 

Stay strong DB!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Heck, even if you divorce, you can always get back together.


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## Jonesey

alphaomega said:


> I'm not sure what you are expecting, but I can give an example from the "loving, caring" reaction to an affair.
> 
> I was loving and understanding. No help. Wife didnt want to end her affair. Took a harder stance, told her to leave (actually packed her stuff for her), started dating for a while, nothing serious. Wife saw this, knew I was moving on. Decided it would be good to work on the marriage. Was actually good for a while, but I got too soft again and too forgiving of her behaviors. She jumped right back into the EA because she knew there were no consequences. I guess if I was a little more firm in my boundaries with more manning up the second time around, the EA maybe wouldn't have rekindled.
> 
> This is the same reason and psychology of any law. Why doesn't everyone just go steal what they desire? Because you go to jail. No If's and maybes. ( at least in a perfect judicial system). That's why most of us don't even try. Same behavior concept as MEM was stating. If his SO even tempted the stability of the marriage, the law is broken and go straight to jail. Do not pass go. This is well understood in thier relationship, so the temptation isn't even there. Much the same as why most are not tempted to steal what they want.
> 
> Manning up isn't playing games. It's being so confident in your LAWS that both sides understand the consequences fully if those laws are broken, and the alpha male isn't bluffing. Break the law, suffer the consequences....even if that means the end of the relationship. Because a true confident alpha is not scared of the loss.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## disbelief

Thanks jonesey, that was helpful to read. 
My june 27 post, I should be journaling better swear i am add, or maybe its all this insanity, nah,,,,,,just forgetful, I digress. If i recall correctly she did humbly spend the nighty of the 27th at home went to Main the next day with 12 y/o. 
She returned on July 2, I went to a class reunion and she stayed home with the kids I ran into an ex girlfriend and now I understand why people rekindle old flames. (i did no rekindling, but I could see it happening)

I did not file ...........yet..........I did buy the kids another Kayak today  
I did revise the seperation agreement with more direct wording like I will not rule out dating while seperated. That she will not just show up at the marital home since she has essentially moved out. Shared bill plan, custody plan. 
i emailed her that.

I left in her stack O bills a short note to the effect.....Dear W, I agree with your decision to seperate realizing that this is the same as a breakup. 
Blah blah .
I am sure we will talk in the future about things.
Dis

Her over the phone demeanor has been quite different. I am not initiating contact except for kid stuff.

I no longer am posotive what I want. I feel more single than married.

Reconcilliation...will not be without transparency. I no longer feel that " I MUST SAVE THIS MARRIAGE" Deep down I would like to. But not without my boundaries being established and her sorting her issues.

Good night all


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## turnera

Did you include in it that she cannot bring other men around your kids?


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## disbelief

I suppose the statement should be ....during seperation niether spouse will introduce/ expose the children to members of the opposite sex. This could confuse the children since the course of the relationship has not been finalized. Or something to that effect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Yep. Your lawyer will know how to word it.


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## disbelief

Seperation agreement is currently without lawyers we are still amicable I have items in reserve should things take a turn for the worse. I am being nothing but nice in the face of all this. So as I give her the seperation agreement it is hard to know what the tears are really for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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