# Had a realization about my marriage; now how do I talk to her about it?



## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

Last night after the kids were asleep, my wife and I were taking care of some busy-work around the house, and starting to wind-down for the night and get ready to get to sleep, etc.

We've been keeping and sleeping in separate rooms for just over a year now. She had said she was going to relax and watch some TV. I was in the kitchen, we talked about a few things with respect to family business for today (going to our son's soccer game this morning etc.), and we wrapped that up. 

At that point I said that I would leaver her alone and I didn't want to intrude on her relaxation time or bother her, and that I was going to go to my room. She asked me if I wanted to watch TV with her. I asked her if she wanted me to. She said she couldn't answer the question because she didn't know what kind of frame of mind I was in, how I was feeling, and so on... She said if I was going to be in a bad mood and upset and the like that she'd rather have the time to herself, but that if I could just relax with her and take it easy and not be upset or angry or anything with her or anything else, or anything like that, that she didn't mind if I watched TV with her.

At this point I became very frustrated. I was tempted to simply walk out and not say anything and be upset that she had yet again failed to express a desire to spend time together, and to be with me.

That's when it hit me. I realized that kind of response is a big part of why I feel it's as if she doesn't want to be with me, that she'd rather be alone or with someone else. I need for her to unequivocally express that she wants me to be with her, and not put it on me to make that decision for her. I would much rather she simply say yes or no, and if she says yes, and I end up doing something that bothers or upsets her, or detracts from what she wants to have in terms of what she wants from her experience, then just tell me what it is and ask me to stop, or whatever. 

And, I realized, she does this all the time... She insists I make her decisions for her about whether or not we spend time together, and I hate it. I hate it because it says to me that she doesn't really want to be with me and she wants me to show that, when I already have made that clear to her that I want to but I don't feel from her like she wants me to, and I hate that she's placing responsibility for her experience on me.

I want to be able to tell her this is how I feel about this dynamic that exists between us, but I know the chances are great that it will only lead to an argument, and won't be productive at all in terms of helping our relationship. We've fallen into a sort of knee-jerk set of responses to one another over dealing with just about anything with respect to our relationship, and I don't want to keep falling into that, I want to break out of it, and I feel that talking about this issue would be a good thing to do, but at the same time, it's going to be all too easy to have that attempt become just another example of that broken, dysfunctional, knee-jerk routine that we get trapped in so often.

So, I want to let her know how I feel about this; that I still want to spend time with her and be close to her, that I want to be able to have a good time together and enjoy each other's company, but that I need her to stop putting the responsibility for her half of the decision in those situations on me. So how can I do this without it just becoming more of the same dysfunctional dynamic?


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## nynaeve3 (Apr 12, 2011)

Approach her at a time that is convenient for both of you and not when one is stressed or rushed/busy or about to have to go doing something so neither is stressed before the conversation even starts (important you're relaxed too, not just your W). Tell her you want to talk about something important to you in your relationship, ask her if she has time now, if not agree a time for later. All this gently gently will hopefully provide best set up for the discussion.

Tell her how you like spending time with her first, how you want to enjoy her company etc. so it's not just criticism, make her feel you're not accusing anyone of anything and keep it positive. Then say how you feel when she doesn't give a yes/no answer - that it makes you feel she doesn't really want to spend time with you - being honest and not accusational. Tell her you want to feel she wants to spend time with you as you want to spend time with her, ask her what can be done/to give clear yes/no answer. It's called a [email protected]£$ sandwich and sometimes is a good way of delivering something negative between positives to soften it. 

Obviously I don't know the dynamics of your relationship, or of either of you individually, so if you think there's no way this'd work then fair play!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*hmmm*

HD,
She asked you if you would like to watch tv with her? SHE asked YOU. I get that it was not the highly definitive request you want. So what. Someone has to tilt the ship towards true north and frankly she made a low key overture. All you needed to do was say "sure" and then make the effort to be good company. If you do that consistently - guess what - she starts to associate being with you - with being happy. 

And the best way to do that is to go in the tv room first and sit on furniture that has room for two. If she sits next to you - stay. If she sits elsewhere - give it a couple minutes and you are not getting a good vibe from her - just yawn and tell her you are going to sleep. If she fitness tests you - tries to get you to stay - you can just respond with "if you want me to stay, sit with me on the couch". This is not a "feelings" conversation. This is a low key statement of action/consequence". If she comes over great. If not, don't say another word, don't show anger/disappointment, just leave. This is just enforcing a boundary: "I am not going to watch tv with my W, if she isn't going to even sit next to me". And you stay the heck away from how you "feel" when that happens. You don't have to justify your behavior. Simply explain what it is and that is it. She can decide if she would rather be "alone", or actually be "with" you. You keep doing that stuff so that when you are with her, you are happy/upbeat, and if she creates a context that is bad for you, you leave. 

BTW - my W always frames her requests as questions. She always says "do you want to ...." which means "I" want you to, but I am not pressuring you. 

Actually I do the same. I say "I am going to walk the dogs, would you like to join me"? If she does - great. If not - no problem. 

Is it possible that the lack of sex is making your nerves raw?





Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> Last night after the kids were asleep, my wife and I were taking care of some busy-work around the house, and starting to wind-down for the night and get ready to get to sleep, etc.
> 
> We've been keeping and sleeping in separate rooms for just over a year now. She had said she was going to relax and watch some TV. I was in the kitchen, we talked about a few things with respect to family business for today (going to our son's soccer game this morning etc.), and we wrapped that up.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bad move. This is destructive beta behavior. When she wants to know how you feel she will ask. Telling her is going to hurt the marriage. Sorry - but that is how this works. Because no matter how you "word" this conversation it actually comes out like this: "I love you more than you love me. I am hurt and angry that you don't love me more". Total disaster. If you want her to love you more, you need to be more .... lovable . That does NOT mean being a yes man. Or always doing what she wants. It does mean exerting great emotional self control and learning to deal with fitness tests with humor or at the very least firmness. 




nynaeve3 said:


> Approach her at a time that is convenient for both of you and not when one is stressed or rushed/busy or about to have to go doing something so neither is stressed before the conversation even starts (important you're relaxed too, not just your W). Tell her you want to talk about something important to you in your relationship, ask her if she has time now, if not agree a time for later. All this gently gently will hopefully provide best set up for the discussion.
> 
> Tell her how you like spending time with her first, how you want to enjoy her company etc. so it's not just criticism, make her feel you're not accusing anyone of anything and keep it positive. Then say how you feel when she doesn't give a yes/no answer - that it makes you feel she doesn't really want to spend time with you - being honest and not accusational. Tell her you want to feel she wants to spend time with you as you want to spend time with her, ask her what can be done/to give clear yes/no answer. It's called a [email protected]£$ sandwich and sometimes is a good way of delivering something negative between positives to soften it.
> 
> Obviously I don't know the dynamics of your relationship, or of either of you individually, so if you think there's no way this'd work then fair play!


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## SadieBrown (Mar 16, 2011)

Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> Last night after the kids were asleep, my wife and I were taking care of some busy-work around the house, and starting to wind-down for the night and get ready to get to sleep, etc.
> 
> We've been keeping and sleeping in separate rooms for just over a year now. She had said she was going to relax and watch some TV. I was in the kitchen, we talked about a few things with respect to family business for today (going to our son's soccer game this morning etc.), and we wrapped that up.
> 
> ...


Okay, so you say you want your wife to give you a simple yes or know answer and don't understand why she doesn't. But YOU didn't give her a simple yes or know answer when she asked of you wanted to watch TV with her. You answered her question with another question. Why do you get upset with your wife for not doing what you don't do yourself??? 

As for if you were going to be in a bad mood then she would rather you didn't it sounds like she was setting boundaries. Is this a legitimate concern? Are you constantly in a bad mood? That might be something for you to think about. 

I sounds like you and your wife really need to work on your communication skills. Perhaps a few counseling sessions are in order.


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## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

Hi all, thanks for your responses.



MEM11363 said:


> Bad move. This is destructive beta behavior. When she wants to know how you feel she will ask. Telling her is going to hurt the marriage. Sorry - but that is how this works. Because no matter how you "word" this conversation it actually comes out like this: "I love you more than you love me. I am hurt and angry that you don't love me more". Total disaster. If you want her to love you more, you need to be more .... lovable . That does NOT mean being a yes man. Or always doing what she wants. It does mean exerting great emotional self control and learning to deal with fitness tests with humor or at the very least firmness.


She never asks me about how I feel with respect to our relationship. The only thing she ever asks me how I feel about something is if it's a topic outside of our relationship, or something like a logistical issue; when to go to the store, who's going to pick up which kid when, and so on. 

And the only time she ever does tell me how she feels is when she's disappointed in me for some reason, usually because I haven't done something she wanted me to, or done it in the way or in the time frame she wanted me to. 

And at times when I try to talk to her about our emotional relationship, we sometimes do get a few minutes of forthright communication down, but eventually it devolves into this kind of thing where she says she's emotionally worn out by talking about it and she can't keep talking about it anymore.

I have been working on 'being more lovable' as you say... being considerate of her needs and offering to do nice things for her, like this morning, I went into her room after I woke up and sat next to her on her bed, and rubbed her shoulders for her and scratched her back, which she seemed to appreciate. At the same time I was mindful of what my desires were and held them in check because I knew what response I was going to get if I tried or expressed that I wanted to be able to hold her more, touch her more, etc, and not necessarily even have sex, so I just didn't let myself doing anything like that. Every single time I've done that with her in the past few yeas, she cringes, shudders, and tenses up, and it's obvious at those times she does not want me to do what I'm doing, so I no longer even do it in the first place. I do tell her that I'm still attracted to her and want to be close to her, be affectionate and intimate, but she just isn't into it. 

For a number of weeks now I've been doing things to take care of myself, and put myself in a better place emotionally, psychologically, health wise, and with my career. I'm working on myself and trying to figure out what I want and where to set my boundaries with her. I feel I've already started to make a little bit of progress with that.

And yes, SHE did ask ME... but it's one of those things you had to be there to understand by seeing the dynamic of it. She was very tentative about it, and there were riders on the question, specifically about whether or not I would be able to be the way she wanted me to be. (I will admit, I am cynical more often than not with respect to her, but it's been in response to the constant rejections and judgments and condemnations that have become her standard way of communicating with me over the last few years.) So that is why I asked her if she wanted me to watch TV with her. I am sick and tired of her wanting me to make the decision for her when I've already tried to make clear that I do still want to spend time with her, and so on. 

I just want to hear her say how she feels, make a decision, and go from there. If she's not happy about something with that afterward, she can either just up and say it and we can deal with it right there and then, instead of doing all this dodging of responsibility where she wants me to make the decision for her by placing constraints on the decision I am supposed to make about it on my side.



SadieBrown said:


> Okay, so you say you want your wife to give you a simple yes or know answer and don't understand why she doesn't. But YOU didn't give her a simple yes or know answer when she asked of you wanted to watch TV with her. You answered her question with another question. Why do you get upset with your wife for not doing what you don't do yourself???
> 
> As for if you were going to be in a bad mood then she would rather you didn't it sounds like she was setting boundaries. Is this a legitimate concern? Are you constantly in a bad mood? That might be something for you to think about.
> 
> I sounds like you and your wife really need to work on your communication skills. Perhaps a few counseling sessions are in order.


No, in the past I have gotten upset about my wife not doing for me what she expects me to do for her. I get tired of having the rules changed on me after the fact. Let me give you a brief example of something that happened about three years ago... My wife has large breasts, and I have always been attracted to women with large breasts, and I like it when I can please a woman via her breasts, and it certainly a turn-on for me. She felt I hadn't been respectful of her boundaries with respect to her breasts. She said that if I gave her the space she wanted with respect to that, then she would be okay with it and could enjoy it. So for several months I worked very very hard to be respectful of her boundaries about her breasts, not just touching and other physical interactions, but being respectful when she'd change clothes and things like that. 

So after a solid four months of working as hard as I possibly could to respect her boundaries, be vigilant of what she wanted and to go along with what she had said, I felt like it was time to ask her about it. Her response was that she had noticed I'd been doing that and that she did appreciate it, but that I hadn't been doing a good enough job with it and she still didn't feel like she could include that in our physical, sexual experiences, and of course, this was the first time I heard about it at all. Needless to say I was very hurt. And this pattern with all aspects of our physical relationship has continued to this day. So now, I am very cynical when she says things to me about what she wants or what she wants me to do, or to do things with me. I have had to live with this constant rejection 24/7 for the last four or five years now, and I finally got to a point where I simply stopped trying, stopped expressing my feelings for her in any overt or demonstrative way. I even stopped giving her compliments like "you look sexy in that" and the like. So now I live in a relative limbo, still wanting to be close to her but not knowing how she really feels, and THAT is why I feel the need for her to come flat out and say what she wants without going through this whole chicken-dance about making me make the decision for her. The fact I rubbed her shoulders for her and scratched her back this morning was meant to show her that I still want to be close to her, be affectionate with her, and that I'm still attracted to her, but I went into the situation with no expectations that I'd get anything back from her in the process, and that's exactly what happened. So I guess that's why this is such a big issue for me... she said she misses the compliments I give her, the nice things I say about her, the expressions of my feelings for her, but she's never willing to do the same in return, and so when she asked me if I wanted to watch TV with her, that was why I asked if she wanted me to, because I don't know what her actual feelings or motivations in our relationship (apart from the economic and household and parenting issues) are anymore.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I wonder what would have happened if you’d just taken things at face value and sat down with her and enjoyed her company? Guess you’ll never know.

You “fear” your wife, then you will have built boundaries around you (probably consciously and subconsciously) to protect yourself from whatever it is that’s causing your fear. It’s immensely difficult (impossible?) to enjoy the company of a person you fear. That makes you in the fourth stage of “marriage breakdown”.

Bob


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

I agree with MEM and AFEH

Also there is a thread around here somewhere about physical non sexual touching. It is a very good example on how to be close to your wife and then move with far less effort towards sexual touching.

It sounds like you really spent a lot of time with what seemed to her like sexual touching and groping, and being in her physical space wanting sex constantly, rather then touching her and being close to her without (rightly or wrongly) what she perceived as pressure to have sex.

I happen to love lots of touching, sexual and non sexual from my fiance, but this wasn't all ways the case in my past relationship, and i think it's because my fiance spends a lot of time touching me in non sexual ways. He holds my hand, he helps me with my coat, he opens the door for me, he helps me in and out of the car, he kisses me, and hugs me when we are not having sex or even just about to. Then when he wants to have sex I'm very receptive because he has been intimate with me all along.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> We've been keeping and sleeping in separate rooms for just over a year now.


The fact that you've let that happen means she's lost respect for you as a man. This will essentially end her sexual interest in you.

Once you've set that arrangement up, everything will default to zero intimacy in your marriage and you have to make a production about trying to get it.

How did that arrangement come about?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Can’t build much of a bigger barrier/boundary to intimacy, sexual and emotional, than the walls of separate bedrooms and closed doors.

Bob


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## SadieBrown (Mar 16, 2011)

I can sympathize with your wife on the large breast issue. I am somewhat well endowed myself and I understand the defensiveness. Men (not just husbands) threat you different when you have large breasts. Some men go so far as to make assumptions about your morals and intelligence based on the size of your breasts. It's great that you tried to respect your wife's boundaries concerning her breasts. But do you feel like you deserve a medal? People should respect their spouses boundaries with their bodies, as well as many other issues. Being married doesn't give you a right to grab and grope your spouse. Unless of course they invite you to do so. :awink: I agree with Syrum that touching your spouse should be about more than sex. How you have treated her during the day will do more for sexual desire than suddenly fondling her breast. 

BTW, you didn't really answer my question about why she felt the need to put restrictions on your behavior while watching TV. Are you constantly in a bad mood and upset? Is that a legitimate complaint on her part? And if so, did the separate bedrooms lead to your bad mood - or did you bad mood lead to the separate bedroom? Which came first?


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## SadieBrown (Mar 16, 2011)

AFEH said:


> I wonder what would have happened if you’d just taken things at face value and sat down with her and enjoyed her company? Guess you’ll never know.
> 
> 
> 
> Bob


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

SadieBrown said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:


Reckon Heinz is way too "historical" to enjoy being in the present. It happens.

Bob


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## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

AFEH said:


> I wonder what would have happened if you’d just taken things at face value and sat down with her and enjoyed her company? Guess you’ll never know.
> 
> You “fear” your wife, then you will have built boundaries around you (probably consciously and subconsciously) to protect yourself from whatever it is that’s causing your fear. It’s immensely difficult (impossible?) to enjoy the company of a person you fear. That makes you in the fourth stage of “marriage breakdown”.
> 
> Bob


Bob, I have a lot of fears about my marriage, but I do NOT fear my wife. Once again, you are making attributions about my emotional state that are simply false. Perhaps you are projecting, because you've repeatedly made this response to my posts in spite of the fact that I have said to you repeatedly that while I do have some internal fears, I am not afraid of my wife. Please get that through your head, I cannot make it any clearer. 



Atholk said:


> The fact that you've let that happen means she's lost respect for you as a man. This will essentially end her sexual interest in you.
> 
> Once you've set that arrangement up, everything will default to zero intimacy in your marriage and you have to make a production about trying to get it.
> 
> How did that arrangement come about?


I set that arrangement up, of my own volition, so you are wrong in assuming it's because of a loss of respect for me "as a man". In fact, she didn't want me to do it! She said she wanted me to continue to sleep in the same bed with her. Her interest in sex waned a long time, years, before I decided I couldn't tolerate laying next to her without being able to be close to her. I did it as a way of taking care of myself, to have a space where I could be comfortable and sleep soundly on my own, instead of having to be right next to her and the wall SHE has put up, and the negative effects it was having on me emotionally and physically because I couldn't sleep because of how it made me feel. Since then I sleep much more soundly, and feel a lot better about myself since I don't have her throwing her rejection of me in my face every night.



SadieBrown said:


> I can sympathize with your wife on the large breast issue. I am somewhat well endowed myself and I understand the defensiveness. Men (not just husbands) threat you different when you have large breasts. Some men go so far as to make assumptions about your morals and intelligence based on the size of your breasts. It's great that you tried to respect your wife's boundaries concerning her breasts. But do you feel like you deserve a medal? People should respect their spouses boundaries with their bodies, as well as many other issues. Being married doesn't give you a right to grab and grope your spouse.


I never said that it did, please don't put words in my mouth. But, what I did want was some recognition, some compromise on her part for the fact that I had and have been making an honest effort to change and improve my end of our relationship, but yet she has refused to respond in kind. She wants things her way and wants me to read her mind and do what she wants, and when I don't, I get the cold shoulder for it. 

Would it be too much for her to give me some input, some feedback, actually communicate her wishes and desires on how I could continue to improve on respecting her and her boundaries so that we could have a mutually rewarding and meaningful physical (even non-sexual) interaction? I don't think so, but she doesn't. So what am I supposed to think of that?



SadieBrown said:


> I agree with Syrum that touching your spouse should be about more than sex. How you have treated her during the day will do more for sexual desire than suddenly fondling her breast.


As I said, I have worked long and hard to be respectful of her physical, personal, and sexual boundaries. But, she has not responded at all except to continue to criticize me for not doing a good enough job with that. In fact, it has been literally three years since then, and the whole time I have been exemplary about respecting her boundaries but nothing on her part has changed. 

With respect to how I am with her in a non-sexual fashion, I frequently offer to rub her back for her, rub her shoulders (she has a muscle/neck condition) and she does sometimes accept. And at those times I make it a point to be respectful of her boundaries, and I never cross that line unless she wants me to, (even when she removes her shirt and bra, and is completely topless while I am rubbing her back and shoulders), but she never does; she never indicates either verbally or non-verbally that she wants me to. So, for the past couple of years, again, in those situations I have made it a point to not only not cross those boundaries, but to have NO EXPECTATIONS that she will want me to or that she will ask me to, and she never does, so I don't.

Here's the kicker with respect to this situation... A few weeks ago we had an argument and one of the things that came up was that I told her I felt unloved by her, that she didn't find me attractive anymore, and that she didn't want to be physical with me. She said that wasn't true and that she did still find me attractive, and she did still feel a desire to have sex with me. Now, here's the good (bad) part... she said that she does return those affections for times when I give her a back rub or a shoulder rub, but the truth is she doesn't. Once she's feeling better from what I've been doing for her, she covers up, says goodnight, and dismisses me from the room... she literally says things like 'thanks, you can go now' at those times!



SadieBrown said:


> BTW, you didn't really answer my question about why she felt the need to put restrictions on your behavior while watching TV. Are you constantly in a bad mood and upset? Is that a legitimate complaint on her part? And if so, did the separate bedrooms lead to your bad mood - or did you bad mood lead to the separate bedroom? Which came first?


I did address this, but I'm sorry if I wasn't clear... Yes, I do tend to be in 'bad' mood around her, and this is something I've been working on for some time in my personal psychotherapy with my counselor, how to not let my feelings of hurt and rejection because of her behavior towards me affect my attitude and emotions toward her. But you know what? It's REALLY ****ING HARD TO HOLD BACK THE ANGER AND HURT I feel from regularly offering olive branches to her, from being respectful of her personal and sexual boundaries, only to have her respond to me in the fashion I mentioned in my original post or above in this post.

You know, we've tried marriage counseling three separate times over the past six years or so. Each and every time, her attitude has been that she's willing to do it with me because she wants to help me 'get fixed'... Her attitude is that she has nothing to do with the situation and I'm the one with all the problems, and that if I just 'got my emotional **** together' (as she likes to put it), then our relationship would be all daisies and sunshine. Frankly, I am at my wits end, and I don't want to be treated this way anymore. If I am doing something wrong, she won't tell me what it is other than that I'm doing things wrong and she's unhappy with that. I don't know where to go from here.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> But for me, I've found the reason for this is fear... regardless of what it may be about, it is ultimately fear of her doing those same things again that leads me to bring them up when we are in conflict. I am afraid of being hurt again by what she did. And as others in this thread have mentioned, it wouldn't be such an issue if I didn't see what look like indicators that it might happen again.


Sounds like fear of your wife to me Heinz. Maybe you meant something else?

Bob


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Heinz,
You are in a sexless marriage with a wife who doesn't even respect you enough to have an honest conversation with you. 

When she falsely claims that she reciprocates when you rub her back you don't call her on it. 

When she falsely claims she feels sexual desire for you when clearly her actions show otherwise, you don't call her on it. 

When she "dismisses" you from the room after you give her a back/neck rub and you don't respond with "I am not your masseuse I am your husband, as such I expect some level of reciprocity on occasion as opposed to being "dismissed" after your needs are met. 

I am not going to "fence" with you about whether you "fear" your W directly, or fear the idea of divorce. Either way you are getting lied to, and kicked in the teeth and you keep coming back and asking her "why can't you be nice to me". Subtract fear from the equation and you would have had a huge CTJ with her long ago letting her know what you required from HER if she wanted to continue the marriage. 




Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> Bob, I have a lot of fears about my marriage, but I do NOT fear my wife. Once again, you are making attributions about my emotional state that are simply false. Perhaps you are projecting, because you've repeatedly made this response to my posts in spite of the fact that I have said to you repeatedly that while I do have some internal fears, I am not afraid of my wife. Please get that through your head, I cannot make it any clearer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Sounds like fear of your wife to me Heinz. Maybe you meant something else?
> 
> Bob


There's a difference between having fear and being afraid of someone. I guess you're not aware of that difference.


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## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Heinz,
> You are in a sexless marriage with a wife who doesn't even respect you enough to have an honest conversation with you.
> 
> When she falsely claims that she reciprocates when you rub her back you don't call her on it.
> ...


We actually had sex last on March 26th, and the time before that on February 12th. Not even sure why I've started keeping track... I guess I want to use that against her in some way because of how I feel about all of this. I know that's petty, but I haven't used it against her so far.

I really have thought about just up and leaving. But, I'm under-employed right now and don't earn enough to afford a separate place to live. I've told my therapist I'd rather sleep under the freeway than continue living with her this way, and I honestly have thought about doing that, but I can't. The reason is we have two children, a son who is 10 and a daughter who is 2 1/2 and they would be devastated if I left. My daughter is particularly strongly attached to me and there isn't a day that goes by when I'm not amazed at how much she loves me and depends on me... I also have a very strong bond with my son; he also has a good relationship with my wife, but it would still affect him if I left, so I owe it to them to be here for them and do the best I can for them. I've decided that I have to put up with the situation with my wife so I can be here for my kids.

With respect to 'fear', I don't know how I can make this any clearer: I do have fears, I have insecurities about a lot of things, about myself and about how my wife feels about me. So let me make this perfectly clear: I am not afraid of my wife, I do not fear that she is trying to harm me, is out to get me, that she is trying to emotionally abuse me, and so on... that is what I don't seem to be able to communicate effectively here. You'e welcome to think what you want about what I'm saying, but the idea that I am afraid of her is simply wrong. I do not fear her or what she will do. I feel afraid that I'm going to spend the rest of my life suffering because of my situation with her and there's nothing I can do about it because I love my kids too much to leave, even though I really wish my relationship with my wife was better.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

OK. I accept that you aren't afraid of her. 

Why is it that when she says "I still find you desirable", you don't challenge her on that. 

Why not flat out ask "If you really desired me, you would initiate more than every month or so and more important you would ask me to return to our bedroom".

The more you let her make flat misstatements about the marriage the less she will respect you. 

And for a guy who is so into precision communication you talk about loving the kids too much to leave, and then fearing spending the rest of your life with an unloving wife. Are you 60? Because if not, your youngest leaves in 16 years and you will have life left to live if you want to leave. Personally I never buy the "I love the kids to much" thing. You think the kids seeing separate bedrooms and a very strained interaction pattern is healthy?





Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> We actually had sex last on March 26th, and the time before that on February 12th. Not even sure why I've started keeping track... I guess I want to use that against her in some way because of how I feel about all of this. I know that's petty, but I haven't used it against her so far.
> 
> I really have thought about just up and leaving. But, I'm under-employed right now and don't earn enough to afford a separate place to live. I've told my therapist I'd rather sleep under the freeway than continue living with her this way, and I honestly have thought about doing that, but I can't. The reason is we have two children, a son who is 10 and a daughter who is 2 1/2 and they would be devastated if I left. My daughter is particularly strongly attached to me and there isn't a day that goes by when I'm not amazed at how much she loves me and depends on me... I also have a very strong bond with my son; he also has a good relationship with my wife, but it would still affect him if I left, so I owe it to them to be here for them and do the best I can for them. I've decided that I have to put up with the situation with my wife so I can be here for my kids.
> 
> With respect to 'fear', I don't know how I can make this any clearer: I do have fears, I have insecurities about a lot of things, about myself and about how my wife feels about me. So let me make this perfectly clear: I am not afraid of my wife, I do not fear that she is trying to harm me, is out to get me, that she is trying to emotionally abuse me, and so on... that is what I don't seem to be able to communicate effectively here. You'e welcome to think what you want about what I'm saying, but the idea that I am afraid of her is simply wrong. I do not fear her or what she will do. I feel afraid that I'm going to spend the rest of my life suffering because of my situation with her and there's nothing I can do about it because I love my kids too much to leave, even though I really wish my relationship with my wife was better.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

HD, you are in a better place than you may think since you have a clear head about how you feel and what you want. Your w is not capable of doing what you wish. You have to show leadership and not take indifference as an answer. Take what she says at face value and expect her to "walk the walk". Don't fall on your sword by soliciting a bad response when she has already told you what you need/want to hear. Don't ask, explain if necessary how you expect her to live up to what she says. Provide gentle but firm guidance
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> I set that arrangement up, of my own volition, so you are wrong in assuming it's because of a loss of respect for me "as a man". In fact, she didn't want me to do it! She said she wanted me to continue to sleep in the same bed with her. Her interest in sex waned a long time, years, before I decided I couldn't tolerate laying next to her without being able to be close to her. I did it as a way of taking care of myself, to have a space where I could be comfortable and sleep soundly on my own, instead of having to be right next to her and the wall SHE has put up, and the negative effects it was having on me emotionally and physically because I couldn't sleep because of how it made me feel. Since then I sleep much more soundly, and feel a lot better about myself since I don't have her throwing her rejection of me in my face every night.


That's interesting. Usually it's the wife that demands the separate beds/bedrooms. I wouldn't put any stock in her complaining she didn't want you to do it though, it just makes what she wants your sex life to be easier for her to do.

In any case it's no solution, just a sort of martial Berlin Wall you've put up. You are still making it clear by your actions that you are willing to tolerate being in what amounts to a sexless marriage. Unless you get to the point where you are communicating to her the will and ability to either leave or have sex with other women, the situation will remain the same. 

She's getting everything she wants from your relationship right now, so she has no need of changing things.


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## Giulietta (Apr 21, 2011)

Wow, this sounds so much worse than how I was towards my husband but he up and left. Trying to rather. 
You should tell her what you need in order to be happy in the marriage. Tell her you've been thinking of leaving and why. She may then seriously consider her behavior and see your point of view. It's so hard for a woman to over come certain barriers about sex sometimes unless there is 100% clear and honest communication. I wish my husband had've told me this directly instead of appearing unconditionally loving and stable and then suddenly, irrevocably, changing his mind and leaving me. So tell her this and give her a chance for introspection and it could act as a catalyst for positive change.


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## WaverlyHanson (Apr 20, 2014)

Hello Heinz: It sounds like you both have a lot of pain and it is very hard to get beyond all of that. It will take something special to help at least one of you to change the destructive dance that seems to be going on.

I wonder whether either of you have thought about at least ONE THING you each did differently when things were really good between you? Sometimes even that thought can be helpful. Like Michelle from Divorce Busting says - somebody has to tip the first domino! 
Another thought - have you both ever attended a good Marriage Retreat with follow up afterwards? That one weekend can be equal to several months in good marriage counseling. I've seen many couples have a major turnaround in a weekend or even several weeks in counseling. 

Wishing you both all the best....WaverlyHanson


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Hey, just cuz it's Easter doesn't mean resurrecting threads as if they're new is okay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

By the way, just trying to be funny. Sorry if that offended anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I didn't take your wife's request the same as you did. I think by her asking she had just invited you to spend time with her because that was what she wanted. I do not think she would have asked had she not been interested in spending time with you. When you then asked if that was what she wanted that right there set up the scenario that you do not like. Perhaps you need to be careful with your questioning and your own thought process.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Ummm, today is April 19th...these posts are from April 24th. 


Of 2011.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The OP has a very interesting self description:



> Grew up in Michigan as an only child; my mother was a single parent, who was regularly emotionally abusive and occasionally physically abusive. Spent a lot of time with my grandparents, and my grandfather was essentially my dad. He was a farmer and I spent a lot of time on his farm helping him tend his orchards. Had several cousins, but I was the oldest of all the grand children, so none of them were really like brothers or sisters to me.
> 
> We moved to California the summer I was ten and have lived the rest of my life in the northern california area. I was a troubled teenager and all that goes along with it, drugs, STD's, small record of misdemeanors, etc. Had a severe life crisis in my early 20's and found AA and Al-Anon and those programs and the people I met there saved my life for all intents and purposes.
> 
> ...


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