# The Sex Starved Wife



## EleGirl

I would like this thread to be a resource for women who are in sexless, or near sexless marriages in which it is their husbands who don’t want sex. I’m hoping that women dealing with this issue will post and talk about what they are going through.

About 20% of marriages are sexless. A sexless marriage is defined as one in which the couple has sex 10 or fewer times a year.

We hear a lot about women withholding sex and thus making a marriage sexless, or near sexless. There is a lot of empathy/sympathy out there for men stuck in such a marriage. 

What we don’t hear of much is that about half of the sexless marriages are due to the husband choosing to make the marriage sexless. We are fed the falsehood that all men want sex all the time. Well that’s just not so. Some men do not want sex all the time.

Women who are in sexless marriages due to their husband’s choice to make the marriage sexless often feel that they have nowhere to turn, no one to talk to. They are rightly concerned that they will be blamed. It’s all their fault. When a woman thinks that all men want sex all the time, in her mind she becomes the only married woman who is so undesirable that her husband will not touch her.

Women are only now starting to be open about this. Marriage counselors are finally starting to talk about how common the problem is.

If you are a woman in a sexless marriage because it’s your husband’s choice to make it sexless, you are far from alone. Many of us women out here have had the same issue. We are, or were, married to a man like your husband.

TAM is a good place to come for moral support and some good advice. But there is no way that we here on TAM can give you all the input and help you need to resolve this issue. There are some books that I think would go a long way to help you understand what is going on in your marriage and figure out ways to fix it if at all possible. Here are some good books that have helped a lot of women.

Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It

Intimacy Anorexia: Healing the Hidden Addiction in Your Marriage

Sex-Starved Wives

*The Sex-Starved Wife: What to Do When He's Lost Desire*  by Michele Weiner Davis

Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence

In some sexless marriages, the issue is denying sex to control their spouse. Here are some links if you think you might be experiencing this

Narcissists, Sex and Fidelity - The Somatic Narcissist, The Asexual Cerebral Narcissist, Extramarital Affairs, and Paraphilias

Sexual Attitudes of a Narcissist: Sex and the Narcissist - The Narcissistic Life

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/350970-Sex-Starved-wife-12.html#post16762066
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Below is some info from the book "Why Men Stop Having Sex".

WHAT STOPS THE PASSION? Why do men stop having sex with their wives? The reason is seldom simple and may have a physiological, psychological, or cultural foundation; recent studies add a genetic component. Often these elements combine. We looked at the statistical reasons our male survey respondents, who self-identified as choosing not to have sex with their spouses, gave us for no longer being intimate, and we studied their comments carefully. Let’s first take a look at some statistics. We asked men to rate a list of reasons on a scale that went from strongly agree to strongly disagree. The following table lists in descending order the percentage of men who agreed with each of the causes.


*%% WHY MEN SAID THEY STOPPED*

68%……She isn’t sexually adventurous enough for me. 
(This lack of newness, energy, and emotion translates for many men into a lack of adventure and sexual enjoyment on the part of their partners, transferring the problem and ignoring the fact that they [the men] are not bringing any originality to bed, either.)​
61%……She doesn’t seem to enjoy sex. 
48%……I am interested in sex with others, but not with my wife.
44%……I am angry at her. 
41%……I’m bored. 
40%……She is depressed. 
38%……She has gained a significant amount of weight.
34%……I am depressed.
32%……I no longer find her physically attractive.
30%……I suffer from erectile dysfunction.
28%……I lost interest and I don’t know why.
25%……I prefer to masturbate, but not online.
25%……I prefer to watch pornography online and masturbate.
21%……I am on medication that lowered my libido.
20%……I am/was having an affair.
16%……I suffer from premature ejaculation.
15%……I have difficulty achieving orgasm.
14%……I am too tired.
09%……She is/was having an affair.
06%……I don’t have the time.
03%……I wasn’t interested in sex to begin with. 
<1%……I am gay.

Although the men know (or at least think they know) the reasons for their voluntary celibacy but the women are only guessing, either way the situation is embarrassing and painful. * It is therefore not surprising that both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves.* Indeed, men indicate a lack of sexual adventure (hers, not his) as primary. It is difficult to believe that this lack of erotic excitement is completely one-sided, and that these men who identify their wives as unadventurous are themselves imaginatively passionate guys, just somehow mysteriously unable to inspire the one woman they chose to marry. Both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves. After all, they probably knew her acceptable level of tolerance for erotic exploration before the vows were exchanged. We suspect that boredom or other factors is closer to the truth, or they are confusing the pornography they see on DVDs or the Internet with reality.

Berkowitz, Bob; Yager-Berkowitz, Susan. He's Just Not Up for It Anymore: Why Men Stop Having Sex, and What You Can Do About It (pp. 13-15). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

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Another thing that is becoming more and more of an issue is men who prefer to use porn to masturbate to instead of having sex with their wife (or significant other).

I've had discussions with women who say that their husband seldom has sex with them. Instead he uses port many times more in a month than he will have sex with her...if he will have sex with her at all. But she will make a strong point that her husband does not have a porn addition. I'm not sure if it matters one iota if we call it an addiction or not. He prefers to have sex with porn than with her. There is a reason and it needs to be addressed if the couple is ever going to have sex life. So label it addiction, or don't label it. It's all the same thing.

There are ways for men who use porn to the extent that it is hurting their marital sex life. There is a way to get the desire for their desire for their wife back.

This has become so common that there is now a lot of information about it available. If you search on "cure porn addiction", many sites will come up that talk about how to fix this. 

Here is a site with a lot of info on this topic: *Your Brain on Porn*



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## tropicalbeachiwish

I think I'm going on 5 or 6 weeks now. That may not be the record breaker but it's probably close. The excuse is an injury that he obtained working out at the gym. Yet he's never gone to the doctor and he still works out 5 days a week. I'm calling bs on it (but not to his face). I'm LD too (once a week is good for me), but I'm now dreaming about sex. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife

Great post, Ele!

Some wives aren't totally sex starved or sexless, but are maybe just getting lack luster sex or sex they dislike (men complain of the same problem, of course). There are some women here who have turned their so-so sex lives into better sex lives. I hope some of them will chime in here. I'm thinking of @Spicy and @peacem 

and @MissScarlet

and @Anon Pink


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## peacem

I remember @Anon Pink giving me some good advice that I needed to get the root of the problem and stop worrying so much about the porn. Every time we talked something new and surprising would be said, and then there would be another layer, and another and another. It was 20 years of thin layers of unhappiness that slowly crept up on us.

When we got right to the root it turned out my H was not very confident with sex and didn't think he was ever very good at it (because I took so long to orgasm). For me I was insecure about my body, not dealing well with aging, and honestly thought there was something wrong with me because I couldn't orgasm like a porn movie. So when he turned from me I didn't put up much of a fight. 

Not to simplify things too much (because there was a lot of childhood issue around sex for my H too), but the single biggest solution was buying a vibrator - which ironically was bought in absolute rage and spite. It turned out having a new power tool improved his confidence and made me feel like a 'normal' woman. It also meant that if my H wasn't feeling horny he can still be sexually affectionate with me until he is ready. He never really cared for the sexy pics of me, or the erotic lingerie or watching porn together - but he would be perfectly happy for me to spend our last penny on sex toys. It wasn't about my attractiveness or sexiness (that didn't need improving) it was about confidence on both sides. 

I think to get to the point we did you have to be somewhat vulnerable which I think many people struggle with (both men and women). It was very difficult for him to admit after 20 years of marriage that he never felt very good at sex and it was difficult for me to admit that I don't really like my body much (those conversation do not typically inspire sexiness). But actually getting these things out in the open created a small ***** of light where we could at last find a solution - as opposed to sleeping in the spare room or turning our backs on each other when the lights go off.


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## Satya

The average frequency of sex as it relates to age would be interesting to consider in this discussion, imo. 
@EleGirl, can you explain a bit more about the 20% of sexless marriages fact? 

I'm curious whether this is 20% of the population in general or whether the study was focused on a particular age range?

I have not been in a sex starved marriage ever, but I was in a sex starved relationship of 8 months with an ex boyfriend. So I can't relate to the duration of sexlessness some ladies here may have endured, but I can recall clearly the way I felt whenever my bf would reject me or avoid being near me when I was sending out obvious signals. When we did have sex, it was very wonderful. I simply could not for the life of me understand why he didn't want more of that. 

I was probably in the best shape of my life when we were dating (my weight hasn't changed much but my lifestyle could allow for more exercise time then) and he was overweight. I was concerned for his general health, but his weight never stopped me from wanting him. 

I'll never know what held him back, whether he found me unattractive, or I just wasn't his type, or he was too nervous and anxious, or what. Maybe our drives were simply mismatched and he needed it less than me. Maybe he had T issues. I asked him very frankly once, why he didn't just seem to desire me at times, and I got the most non-answer in existence. That told me all I needed to know. There were other reasons we split, and it was done completely amicably and cleanly, but he was my first (and hopefully only) experience with sex starvation. It makes you want to crawl up the walls when you're a very expressive, sexual being.


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## Anon Pink

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> I think I'm going on 5 or 6 weeks now. That may not be the record breaker but it's probably close. The excuse is an injury that he obtained working out at the gym. Yet he's never gone to the doctor and he still works out 5 days a week. *I'm calling bs on it (but not to his face)*. I'm LD too (once a week is good for me), but I'm now dreaming about sex.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk



The underlined might be a good starting point. If he can work out, he can have sex. Why are you avoiding this topic with him?


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## EllisRedding

Also, does the 20% sexless marriage take into account marriages where both partners are LD and perfectly happy with this minimal amount of sex, or are we saying 20% sexless are those in which one person in the marriage is unhappy with this?


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## uhtred

Sex starved marriages for men and women seem to follow a very similar pattern. The LD person frequently describes their lack of interest as having some other physical cause - illness, tiredness, etc, but as tropicalbeachiwish has in her example, that physical issue doesn't seem to affect other things that the LD person wants to do.

I don't think the LD person is lying - I think they are trying to explain something that they don't understand themselves. 

There is a tendency for LD people to also be selfish lovers - any sort of sex they want si always available to them on the rare occasions when the want it. They may never have had the experience of not getting what they want in bed. OTOH, there are some selfish lovers who are not LD, who just don't care about their partners' enjoymemt.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

Anon Pink said:


> The underlined might be a good starting point. If he can work out, he can have sex. Why are you avoiding this topic with him?


Because we both avoid conflicts. The sex issue is just a small part of our problems. It's important, yes, but it doesn't rank very high on the list. Our communications suck. We usually pretend that everything is OK but both know it's not. And because we don't fight on a regular basis , when we do once in a while, it BLOWS up. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## EleGirl

uhtred said:


> Sex starved marriages for men and women seem to follow a very similar pattern. The LD person frequently describes their lack of interest as having some other physical cause - illness, tiredness, etc, but as tropicalbeachiwish has in her example, that physical issue doesn't seem to affect other things that the LD person wants to do.


Studies done on couples in sexless marriage have a very similar finding. Most people (man and female) who do not want sex with their spouse are not actually low drive. Somewhere between 70%-80% of them harbor anger and resentment towards their spouse. Some have just stopped trying to talk to their spouse about it but will not have sex with them because their desire for sex WITH THER SPOUSE has been extinguished. Many times, the withholding spouse is using withheld sex as a passive aggressive way to punish their spouse. They can act all nice to their spouse’s face. But then punish them, sort of put the screws to their spouse, by not having sex. If sex matters to their spouse, rejection is a very effective way to punish them. Keep in mind that when asked, about 50% of men who withhold sex from their wife are getting it on the side with another woman. Add to that the large percentage who turn to porn for masturbation. The majority of men who withhold sex are not LD, they are getting sex one way or the other. I think that the same holds for most women… about 50% admit to cheating.

Yes, there are truly LD people. Your wife might be one of them. But that percentage is actually very small.



uhtred said:


> I don't think the LD person is lying - I think they are trying to explain something that they don't understand themselves.


Since 70%-80% of those in studies on the topic say that they are not LD, but withholding because they are harboring anger and resentment, I do think that most are not telling the truth.

Again, your wife might be one of the small percentage who is truly LD. You might not be experiencing what the majority of people who have spouses who make their marriage sexless experience.



uhtred said:


> There is a tendency for LD people to also be selfish lovers - any sort of sex they want is always available to them on the rare occasions when the want it. They may never have had the experience of not getting what they want in bed. OTOH, there are some selfish lovers who are not LD, who just don't care about their partners' enjoymemt.


Yep.


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## john117

You forgot an important reason for LD - control. Not "punishment", but control.


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## badsanta

I was debating if I should add to this thread, but since other men have chimed in, I'll toss in my thoughts.

I've read many books on sexuality and many issues that are not gender specific boil down to self confidence. An individual may crave sex with a spouse because s/he wants to use it as a way to prove that they are loved. So this individual with low self confidence will begin comparing the sexual response of their spouse to that of their own. Upon finding differences, a lack of confidence will often misdiagnose a healthy difference as being a problem that requires correction. Most often this problem is diagnosed as the the other spouse having low desire or an unhealthy libido. In reality the only thing wrong is that there is a failure to understand and respect the spouse's varying sexual response to that of their own.

I'll also add that even men such as myself that have a very active libido and a high level of desire can take a long time to build arousal before achieving a status of being ready to go at a moments notice. Achieving that can take hours or days of daydreaming, fantasizing, and discovering curiosities that create a sense of "anticipation" waiting for the next time our spouse is receptive. In that sense an act of sex actually takes course slowly over a day or more, culminating in the actual event itself for just a very short moment. I can actually go from zero arousal to having sex in a very short amount of time, but I'll admit that it is not enjoyable and those are the moments that I do it for the sake of my wife's pleasure and not mine. The exact same things also happens vice versa in my marriage, and it can be difficult learning to communicate and be respectful of that in a way that allows just one partner to fully indulge while the other enjoys the emotional closeness without feeling used.

Another difficult thing for some to understand is that _sometimes_ sex can be better without an orgasm. An orgasm should never be be sole focus and goal of sex, and if it is, it is very likely that you are forcing your partner to orgasm. It is usually obvious when a partner is having trouble reaching orgasm, be it yourself or your spouse. In my opinion partners should take that as an indication that they are likely overstimulating or understimulating their partner. This is easy to overcome with a little trial and error to see what works better. This situation however becomes even worse when someone feels that they are required to orgasm in order to complete the act of sex, when in reality they should just let go and calm down. I have myself, forced myself to orgasm when the moment was not really happening. What I did not realize is that my wife was sensitive to this and could tell that I was struggling instead of enjoying being with her. I too can sense this vice versa and it is indeed rather problematic to experience your partner pushing themselves beyond the point of pleasure in efforts to force an orgasm. So if it is not going to happen, relax and the next thing you know you will not be able to stop it!

The last discussion point that causes me problems are incompatible philosophies on self exploration and masturbation. Desire needs distance, and in my opinion loving couples encourage each other to be playful with that type of distance as opposed to being threatened by it. 

Hope that helps, 
Badsanta


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## GuyInColorado

One guy's perspective...

I was in a 100% sexless marriage for last 4.5 years of my 8 year marriage. I hated my wife, resented how she treated me. No way in hell did I want to be intimate with her. Never once got a BJ from her, even when dating. I'd much rather take care of myself than to see her naked and give her any pleasure. She never initiated sex prior, I blame her strict religious upbringing. I just married the wrong person, chalk it up as a life lesson. 

Now that I'm divorced, I'm having the best sex of my life at 35 years old. Amazing how good a relationship can be when both want each other all the time. I just hope it never ends.


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## Red Sonja

nirvana said:


> I don't want to derail the thread but I think it is important to know how serious this is (or not).


It is VERY serious for women who are in a sexless relationship.


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## Red Sonja

For those male posters that are scoffing at this being a real problem and/or implying that being a sex starved wife is the woman's own doing.

*PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING ON THIS THREAD.*


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## EllisRedding

Red Sonja said:


> For those male posters that are scoffing at this being a real problem and/or implying that being a sex starved wife is the woman's own doing.
> 
> *PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING ON THIS THREAD.*


If a woman is in a sexless relationship, not by her choice, it is serious (regardless of whether it is more common with one gender vs. the other). I think the general perception is that more men deal with this, which I think makes this thread more valuable as an outlet for women to discuss. I know several female posters have been very forthcoming about the issues they have (and possible are still) dealing with.


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## uhtred

Do you have any links. 
I just have 2 detailed data points (myself, and a woman who has described her problem to me) but from reading lots of forums, there seem to be a lot of cases where as far as the HD can tell, they are doing nothing wrong. Where the LD has been LD since the relationship started - so it seems hard to imagine that it is being used as punishment - why punish someone when you are just starting a relationship?

I am 99.8% convinced my wife doesn't want me to change in any way, she just doesn't want sex with me or with anyone else, or herself for that matter. She has near zero sex drive of any sort. 

Single data points don't prove anything of course, but I'm surprised at the claim that so many people are withholding sex out of anger. 




EleGirl said:


> Studies done on couples in sexless marriage have a very similar finding. Most people (man and female) who do not want sex with their spouse are not actually low drive. Somewhere between 70%-80% of them harbor anger and resentment towards their spouse. Some have just stopped trying to talk to their spouse about it but will not have sex with them because their desire for sex WITH THER SPOUSE has been extringuished. Many times, the withholding spouse is using withhold sex as a passive aggressive way to punish their spouse. They can act all nice to their spouse’s face. But then punish them, sort of put the screws to their spouse, by not having sex. If sex matters to their spouse, rejection is a very effective way to punish them. Keep in mind that when asked, about 50% of men who withhold sex from their wife are getting it on the side with another woman. Add to that the large percengate who turn to porn for masturbation. The majority of men who withhold sex are not LD, they are getting sex one way or the other. I think that the same holds for most women… about 50% admit to cheating.
> 
> Yes, there are truly LD people. Your wife might be one of them. But that percentage is actually very small.
> 
> 
> Since 70%-80% of those in studies on the topic say that they are not LD, but withholding because they are harboring anger and resentment, I do think that most are not telling the truth.
> 
> Again, your wife might be one of the small percentage who is truly LD. You might not be experiencing what the majority of people who have spouses who make their marriage sexless experience.
> 
> 
> Yep.


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## EleGirl

nirvana said:


> I see on TAM time and time again that some people claim that in a sexless marriage, men are "equally likely" to refuse sex as women.
> 
> This statement above means that if we take a random sample of 100 marriages, the ones where the men refuse would be about 50 and where the women refuse would be 50.
> 
> Does this seem accurate? From what I see and read and experience, this is not the case. While sexless marriages due to husbands definitely exist, I don't think that it is as much as the ones due to wives withholding sex.
> 
> My guess would be 20%-80% rather than 50%-50% but I want to see a survey if anyone has.
> 
> I don't want to derail the thread but I think it is important to know how serious this is (or not).


A large part of the reason that you see/read more about men whose wives withhold sex and make the marriage sexless, or near sexless, is that men have always felt open to complain about their wife withholding sex and a sexless marriage. Men get a lot of sympathy from other men and even from other women when the marriage is sexless.

And due to this societal openness on the topic for men, a lot of the earlier work on the topic has only looked at men with wives who withhold sex. 

It's only been more recently that studies have started to be done that look at marriages in which the husband is the one who is withholding sex and making the marriage sexless. 

Society has historically had to empathy/sympathy for women in this situation. For the most part a woman who dares to talk openly about a husband who does not want sex with her is pretty much attacked.. it's her fault, something is wrong with her. If only she would lose weight, wear more makeup, dress up in sexy things, and on and on.. . it's all on her. Women know this and so they don't talk about it.

I was in a marriage where my husband refused to have sex with me for 7 years... yes 7 years. I tried to bring it up in counseling and even the counselor attacked me and make all kinds of mean assumptions about why it was all my fault and my husband was a victim. All of this was imagination in the head of the counselor. That was the last time I ever tried talking about it to anyone... well until I came to TAM. 

And do you know what was told me on TAM? Did I get all that sympathy that the men on TAM get when they have a wife who withholds? NOPE. Not one of the men on TAM offered any kind of empathy or help. The ones who replied laughed at me. I was told in several different ways that it was about time that women expensed this. After a few attempts to talk about it on TAM I just shut down.. for a few years. 

But I kept watching women come here with this issue. And I kept watching them being told some pretty harsh stuff. That's when I started to find resources for these women and started posting to them.



nirvana said:


> I don't want to derail the thread but I think it is important to know how serious this is (or not).


So yea, don't derail this thread to argue about this. It's real. Studies have been done. This thread is to help women in this situation because it can be very hard for women to even be taken seriously when they have this problem in their marriage. When it comes to this topic, one of the first things that a woman needs to know is that her situation is not unique. It's pretty darn common. This thread is for those women who are living with this and need help.


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## Middle of Everything

Guys that are in sexless marriages, I REALLY feel for you. It must be horrible.

But please dont make that pain become resentment for ALL women, and turn this thread into yet ANOTHER men vs women thread on TAM.

Be strong enough to realize this might be one instance where it IS harder for women. Because guys ARE supposed to want sex all the time. So to be married to a guy that for whatever reason doesnt? That would be hell. Hell without people feeling for you because what the hell are you talking about? ALL guys want sex all the time.


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## EllisRedding

I wonder in the instance where the guy is withholding sex, how often it is due to performance issues (ED and PE) that they are too embarrassed about to deal with?


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## EleGirl

Middle of Everything said:


> Guys that are in sexless marriages, I REALLY feel for you. It must be horrible.
> 
> But please dont make that pain become resentment for ALL women, and turn this thread into yet ANOTHER men vs women thread on TAM.
> 
> Be strong enough to realize this might be one instance where it IS harder for women. Because guys ARE supposed to want sex all the time. So to be married to a guy that for whatever reason doesnt? That would be hell. Hell without people feeling for you because what the hell are you talking about? ALL guys want sex all the time.


There are already posts going down that road on this thread. I am going to delete posts that try to turn this into a huge argument and a men vs women thread. 

I've thought long and hard on this topic and on starting this thread. It's not going to be derailed.


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## anonmd

EleGirl said:


> There are already posts going down that road on this thread. *I am going to delete posts that try to turn this into a huge argument* and a men vs women thread.
> 
> I've thought long and hard on this topic and on starting this thread. It's not going to be derailed.


In this one case I think you should. Guys, just let it run for a while at least .


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## uhtred

I don't think it matters whether men or women are more likely to feel deprived of sex. It certainly happens to women and that is the topic of this thread.

I think its valid to look at the similarities and differences between situations where men or women are feeling deprived as a way to get more insight into what is going on. From what I have seen in posts, the pattern is often the same: the LD partner rarely states that they don't want sex, there is just always a "reason" that that don't want it at any particular time.

There are also cases where the HD partner is doing, or failing to do something that causes the LD partner to not be interested. EliGirl believes this is much more common than I believe it is. Regardless of how common it is, I'm convinced that there are situations where nothing the HD partner can do will case the LD to desire them. Of course recognizing the difference between this and situations that the HD can fix is important.

An extra issue is that often the HD can convince the LD to have sex to prevent the HD from leaving. In many cases though that is not at all what the HD wants.


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## Faithful Wife

EllisRedding said:


> I wonder in the instance where the guy is withholding sex, how often it is due to performance issues (ED and PE) that they are too embarrassed about to deal with?


I've known several women who are the higher drive partner in their relationships. Here is a list of the reasons the different husband or boyfriend was LD....

*madonna wh*re issues

*body image issues 

*performance anxiety

*one had some kind of personality disorder 

*excessive drinking combined with poor health causing ED, and then a refusal to deal with it

*one was what I'd consider a true asexual 

*being intimidated by the sexuality of his partner 

*intimacy issues

*CSA

Not one of these men were gay. All of the women in the above relationships are attractive and not overweight, and more importantly, they are sexual beings who wanted sex with their husbands or boyfriends. None of these sexless situations ever got better, other than the ones that split up.


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## Holdingontoit

I do think it is more painful for women to be rejected because we live in a society that sends the (false) message that all men wants sex all the time with all women. So if a man rejects a woman, she figures there must be something really awful about her to overcome his constant insatiable desire. Whereas men, although rejection does hurt, sorta kinda expect it because they have experience being rejected and everyone "knows" that women don't desire sex as much as men so he can reassure himself it isn't entirely his fault.


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## john117

Interesting to see that stress and extra long hours have not yet been included in the list of LD causes for men. In more "traditional" marriages where the man works outside the house, he may be exposed to considerable stress due to work. That, and the long work hours often associated with it all could be contributors to the issue as well.

Like health, men have often been conditioned to not be vocal about such things and simply bear them.

The same issues impact women of course and exist there. But women often have more "options" in the workplace with part time work etc so it may not be as visible.


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## norajane

john117 said:


> Interesting to see that stress and extra long hours have not yet been included in the list of LD causes for men. In more "traditional" marriages where the man works outside the house, he may be exposed to considerable stress due to work. That, and the long work hours often associated with it all could be contributors to the issue as well.
> 
> Like health, men have often been conditioned to not be vocal about such things and simply bear them.
> 
> The same issues impact women of course and exist there. But women often have more "options" in the workplace with part time work etc so it may not be as visible.


In my experience, guys use sex as a stress reliever. 

My fiance, for example, says that, for him, sex is a stress reliever, especially work stress. It absolutely does not work that way for me, however. I cannot orgasm when I'm stressed out - my mind will not focus on the physical pleasure when I'm stressed or anxious about something. Being touched sexually during times of major stress will actually feel irritating to me. 

It could very well be that some men also experience stress the way I do rather than the way (my limited sample of) men do as a stress release.


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## john117

This may actually be an alpha vs beta or type A vs type B personality thing. The Type A has no problem jumping in the sheets after 18 hours of work, while the Type B would worry to death about such and such and never do anything. I've done both .


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## TaDor

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> I think I'm going on 5 or 6 weeks now. That may not be the record breaker but it's probably close. The excuse is an injury that he obtained working out at the gym. Yet he's never gone to the doctor and he still works out 5 days a week. I'm calling bs on it (but not to his face). I'm LD too (once a week is good for me), but I'm now dreaming about sex.


I'm a man, I'll call BS on that. Something else maybe going on.

I was had an accident back in June (so about 15 weeks ago), just sleeping was painful. I couldn't drive and needed help getting dressed. But I think we had sex about 5 days afterwards - on the side.
I've been in physical therapy and healing... I haven't been to the gym because of injuries. We still have sex, but its still tricky and sometimes painful for me - but it gets better by the week.

Unless its shark-week, we usually have sex 2-3 times a week.


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## TaDor

Holdingontoit said:


> I do think it is more painful for women to be rejected because we live in a society that sends the (false) message that all men wants sex all the time with all women. So if a man rejects a woman, she figures there must be something really awful about her to overcome his constant insatiable desire.


When I had ED for a few months (I didn't know why at first - it took a while to sort out) - not even 100mg of viagra could get *it up*. My wife cried about it... that I didn't find her attractive, etc. When it had nothing to do with her. It sucked, I was self-conscience like hell - which hurt in keeping it up (sorry ladies - some of us have or ****s wired to our brains). 

In my head, I was in tears - feeling bad for her... that I WANTED to make love to my wife, I am turned on... and I cannot do it.

It was stress, trauma, and other things combined causing ED. It was a major reason that caused her to cheat on me. Even our MC told her "ED can have nothing to do with the wife". Without meds, my erections work just fine.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

TaDor said:


> I'm a man, I'll call BS on that. Something else maybe going on.
> 
> I was had an accident back in June (so about 15 weeks ago), just sleeping was painful. I couldn't drive and needed help getting dressed. But I think we had sex about 5 days afterwards - on the side.
> I've been in physical therapy and healing... I haven't been to the gym because of injuries. We still have sex, but its still tricky and sometimes painful for me - but it gets better by the week.
> 
> Unless its shark-week, we usually have sex 2-3 times a week.


Well, shark week has priority! 😉

Yep, and maybe the ride is closed (according to him) but the park sure isn't. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## badsanta

If guys are going to post on this thread, perhaps it would be helpful to give women feedback regarding the most common types of male sexual disorders that are uniquely male:


*ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION* while I have never really suffered from this, there are times when my erection becomes very sensitive to emotions. I can be going at it and then look down at my wife and realize her mind is somewhere else it will make me loose my erection immediately. This reaction is so strong that it can even happen moments before I have an orgasm. So if I sense my wife is upset or distant, sex becomes almost impossible. 

*TESTOSTERONE DEFICIENCY SYNDROME* While I am sure this can be a contributing factor to sexual issues, I have a different opinion on this one. With so much news about individuals changing genders I have read about what one experiences when a male counteracts and/or alters his hormones. Even in these cases a male can still be hyper sexual. While my feedback here may not be helpful, I am just trying to point out that a low T count is not necessarily the smoking gun. 

*PEYRONIE’S DISEASE* (scar tissue in the penis) Can't comment on this. But I will add that a few times I have had chafing from playing too rough with toys and what not. The penis is very sensitive, and if there is just a little pain this can be very problematic and distracting during sex. 

*EJACULATORY DYSFUNCTIONS* At times I have experienced both premature ejaculation and anorgasmia. The mindset of a guy dealing with premature ejaculation is indeed a very difficult one. Same goes for anorgasmia. Both seemed to be helped by exploring tantric sex practices in which orgasms are no longer the goal or an obstacle. It can be a source of tremendous anxiety that creates shame. The shame reacts to create adrenaline during sex, which in turn makes it very exciting and end very fast. So work has to be done to relieve shame. Meanwhile anorgasmia and erectile dysfunction seemed to be closely associated. 

While not a male problem, I'll add this one...

*LOWER BACK PAIN* If back pain is severe enough to prevent sleep, it will be very difficult for a guy to desire sex. I have learned that one has to exercise their way out of back pain, and certain sexual positions and thrusts do tend to help strengthen core muscles. So in these situations if you can have the right attitude and patience, sex can actually help address back pain and make getting your exercise a little more enjoyable!

Badsanta


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## EleGirl

WHAT STOPS THE PASSION? Why do men stop having sex with their wives? The reason is seldom simple and may have a physiological, psychological, or cultural foundation; recent studies add a genetic component. Often these elements combine. We looked at the statistical reasons our male survey respondents, who self-identified as choosing not to have sex with their spouses, gave us for no longer being intimate, and we studied their comments carefully. Let’s first take a look at some statistics. We asked men to rate a list of reasons on a scale that went from strongly agree to strongly disagree. The following table lists in descending order the percentage of men who agreed with each of the causes.


*%% WHY MEN SAID THEY STOPPED REASON*

68%……She isn’t sexually adventurous enough for me. 

(This lack of newness, energy, and emotion translates for many men into a lack of adventure and sexual enjoyment on the part of their partners, transferring the problem and ignoring the fact that they’re not bringing any originality to bed, either.)​
61%……She doesn’t seem to enjoy sex. 
48%……I am interested in sex with others, but not with my wife.
44%……I am angry at her. 
41%……I’m bored. 
40%……She is depressed. 
38%……She has gained a significant amount of weight.
34%……I am depressed.
32%……I no longer find her physically attractive.
30%……I suffer from erectile dysfunction.
28%……I lost interest and I don’t know why.
25%……I prefer to masturbate, but not online.
25%……I prefer to watch pornography online and masturbate.
21%……I am on medication that lowered my libido.
20%……I am/was having an affair.
16%……I suffer from premature ejaculation.
15%……I have difficulty achieving orgasm.
14%……I am too tired.
09%……She is/was having an affair.
06%……I don’t have the time.
03%……I wasn’t interested in sex to begin with. 
<1%……I am gay.

Although the men know (or at least think they know) the reasons for their voluntary celibacy but the women are only guessing, either way the situation is embarrassing and painful. * It is therefore not surprising that both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves.* Indeed, men indicate a lack of sexual adventure (hers, not his) as primary. It is difficult to believe that this lack of erotic excitement is completely one-sided, and that these men who identify their wives as unadventurous are themselves imaginatively passionate guys, just somehow mysteriously unable to inspire the one woman they chose to marry. Both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves. After all, they probably knew her acceptable level of tolerance for erotic exploration before the vows were exchanged. We suspect that boredom or other factors is closer to the truth, or they are confusing the pornography they see on DVDs or the Internet with reality.

Berkowitz, Bob; Yager-Berkowitz, Susan. He's Just Not Up for It Anymore: Why Men Stop Having Sex, and What You Can Do About It (pp. 13-15). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.


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## Hope1964

My marriage isn't sexless, but my husband doesn't want sex nearly as often as I do. Until recently he seemed to be happy with once every 2 or 3 weeks, pretty much ALWAYS on weekend mornings. He is also VERY 'stuck in his ways' when it comes to sex. Which I find positively boring. Over the years I've done many things to 'spice it up', which are met with resigned acceptance from him for a while, and then they just kind of......stop. So whenever I felt energetic I would try something new again, we'd do it for a while, then it would stop again, repeat ad nauseum. And every time I would bring it up I would be met with an accusation that I never initiated. Which has been true on and off again over the years. When we did HNHN our needs were totally the opposite of typical as far as our gender. When I would try to talk about it, at first he always laughed - he couldn't talk about sex without laughing. Finally that stopped, but then he would be totally clueless, because he really didn't see a problem. Then he would get mad. We worked through that and I think *MAYBE* he's finally realized this is important to me.

So we have started something new, at HIS suggestion, because after YEARS he FINALLY heard me. I FINALLY managed to get through to him that I wanted more. About 3 weeks ago we started scheduling sex. When we decided to do this, I told him I would really appreciate it if he would be the one to 'initiate' at first, which he has done, and so far it's been fairly successful. He picked the times and days and let me know, and there've been a couple of fails (one morning the alarm didn't go off, one evening he couldn't get it up) but overall I have felt closer to him and better around him because there isn't this huge black cloud hanging over us. So I guess we will see how it goes - if it keeps up. I've heard from other couples that scheduling things has helped.


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## uhtred

This sounds depressingly familiar. My wife has just a couple of things that she enjoys. I'll suggest something new - occasionally she will try, and sometimes enjoy, but then its back to the standard again. Partly I think she sees orgasm as the goal of sex. So, whatever works the fastest for both of us is the "best". It gets the chore over with quickly and we can go on to other things.

Since the changes weren't as quick as our standard things, she didn't see any point. 

Don't you love getting the "why would you want to do XYZ?" question. 







Hope1964 said:


> My marriage isn't sexless, but my husband doesn't want sex nearly as often as I do. Until recently he seemed to be happy with once every 2 or 3 weeks, pretty much ALWAYS on weekend mornings. He is also VERY 'stuck in his ways' when it comes to sex. Which I find positively boring. Over the years I've done many things to 'spice it up', which are met with resigned acceptance from him for a while, and then they just kind of......stop. So whenever I felt energetic I would try something new again, we'd do it for a while, then it would stop again, repeat ad nauseum.
> snip
> .


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## Hope1964

uhtred said:


> Partly I think she sees orgasm as the goal of sex.


My husband thinks MY orgasm is the only goal of us having sex. When I have tried to explain to him how selfish that is of him, he's totally baffled. He is trying, but there is still work to be done 

When I say it's selfish of him to think I have GOT to orgasm every single time, what I mean is that puts a LOT of pressure on me. And what ends up happening is that I will fake one sometimes just so he gets ON with things. Because it always has to be the exact same way too: his fingers, coconut oil, on my clitoris. Which doesn't always work for me.

He also always has to MAKE LOVE, not FVCK. Sometimes I just want to fvck. _Making love_ every.single.time drives me batty.


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## EleGirl

TaDor said:


> When I had ED for a few months (I didn't know why at first - it took a while to sort out) - not even 100mg of viagra could get *it up*. My wife cried about it... that I didn't find her attractive, etc. When it had nothing to do with her. It sucked, I was self-conscience like hell - which hurt in keeping it up (sorry ladies - some of us have or ****s wired to our brains).
> 
> In my head, I was in tears - feeling bad for her... that I WANTED to make love to my wife, I am turned on... and I cannot do it.
> 
> It was stress, trauma, and other things combined causing ED. It was a major reason that caused her to cheat on me. Even our MC told her "ED can have nothing to do with the wife". Without meds, my erections work just fine.


There are many different reasons that cause men to not want sex with their wife.

In your cause, as you describe, you wanted sex but just could not do it. I think that is an important thing for some women to learn, that usually ED has nothing to do with her. If a woman takes the attitude that your wife did, she needs to stop it and get a clue.

There are things that can be done to figure out the cause of ED, is it physical or psychological? If it's physical the husband can seek medial help. If it's philological, then it might be that he does not want sex with his wife. And they need to deal with that. There are some men who refused to see a doctor or anyone else to try to find out what's causing the ED. I think that when a man refuses to get help for ED, he's basically telling his wife that he could care less about having a sex life with her.


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## anonmd

Hope1964 said:


> My husband thinks MY orgasm is the only goal of us having sex. When I have tried to explain to him how selfish that is of him, he's totally baffled. He is trying, but there is still work to be done
> 
> When I say it's selfish of him to think I have GOT to orgasm every single time, what I mean is that puts a LOT of pressure on me. And what ends up happening is that I will fake one sometimes just so he gets ON with things. Because it always has to be the exact same way too: his fingers, coconut oil, on my clitoris. Which doesn't always work for me.
> 
> He also always has to MAKE LOVE, not FVCK. Sometimes I just want to fvck. _Making love_ every.single.time drives me batty.


Try whispering in his ear very specifically 'give it to me NOW' or whatever floats your / his boat.


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## Faithful Wife

anonmd said:


> Hope1964 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My husband thinks MY orgasm is the only goal of us having sex. When I have tried to explain to him how selfish that is of him, he's totally baffled. He is trying, but there is still work to be done
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I say it's selfish of him to think I have GOT to orgasm every single time, what I mean is that puts a LOT of pressure on me. And what ends up happening is that I will fake one sometimes just so he gets ON with things. Because it always has to be the exact same way too: his fingers, coconut oil, on my clitoris. Which doesn't always work for me.
> 
> He also always has to MAKE LOVE, not FVCK. Sometimes I just want to fvck. _Making love_ every.single.time drives me batty.
> 
> 
> 
> Try whispering in his ear very specifically 'give it to me NOW' or whatever floats your / his boat.
Click to expand...




anonmd said:


> Hope1964 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My husband thinks MY orgasm is the only goal of us having sex. When I have tried to explain to him how selfish that is of him, he's totally baffled. He is trying, but there is still work to be done
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I say it's selfish of him to think I have GOT to orgasm every single time, what I mean is that puts a LOT of pressure on me. And what ends up happening is that I will fake one sometimes just so he gets ON with things. Because it always has to be the exact same way too: his fingers, coconut oil, on my clitoris. Which doesn't always work for me.
> 
> He also always has to MAKE LOVE, not FVCK. Sometimes I just want to fvck. _Making love_ every.single.time drives me batty.
> 
> 
> 
> Try whispering in his ear very specifically 'give it to me NOW' or whatever floats your / his boat.
Click to expand...

But what she said is that he's not into f*cking, he's into making love.

This occurs a lot. It seems you are saying "his sexual preferences are just like every man, therefore do this thing that works on every man and he will for sure be turned on". So it seems that you don't believe her that he's not going to be into f*cking no matter what she does. 

There are a lot of guys who only want to make love. When they are partnered with women who also want to get rough and rowdy, this can cause a gridlock in the bedroom because they aren't into what each other wants.

I'd like to just point out that stereotypes are a problem in this discussion. The stereotype that any man will just jump on his wife for a good romp at any moment is unhelpful. Some men are very slow sensual lovers and will never want to just get it on like animals. When we stereotype it is like saying that there is something wrong with anyone who doesn't strictly behave the same way everyone on top of the bell curve behaves. 

I've known a lot of women who were more keen on getting rough and rowdy than the men they were with. These cases are included in my last post about the types of LD men I've encountered under "he was intimidated by her sexuality".


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## Faithful Wife

Sorry I don't know how I copied the quote part twice.


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## Hope1964

anonmd said:


> Try whispering in his ear very specifically 'give it to me NOW' or whatever floats your / his boat.


Ya, no, that would probably turn him RIGHT off.

We have a pretty good sex life actually, I'm not into anything totally weird or far out - I enjoy the 'making love' for the most part. I just get into bad girl mode every once in a while, and I don't think he really knows what to do with me when I do.

Of course all of this is complicated (less so as time goes on) with the fact that he cheated, and called our marriage sexless in his online ads trying to find a fvck buddy. There's a wee bit of the madonna/wh0re thing going on with him I think.


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## EleGirl

GuyInColorado said:


> One guy's perspective...
> 
> I was in a 100% sexless marriage for last 4.5 years of my 8 year marriage. I hated my wife, resented how she treated me. No way in hell did I want to be intimate with her. Never once got a BJ from her, even when dating. I'd much rather take care of myself than to see her naked and give her any pleasure. She never initiated sex prior, I blame her strict religious upbringing. I just married the wrong person, chalk it up as a life lesson.
> 
> Now that I'm divorced, I'm having the best sex of my life at 35 years old. Amazing how good a relationship can be when both want each other all the time. I just hope it never ends.



Did you just avoid sex with her?

Or did you tell her once that there would be no sex ever again? Or did you two talk about it from time to time? What was her take on it?

You said that she never initiated sex prior. Prior to what? Did she initiate sex after?

Was there an in-between period between a more full sex life and the end of sex? What went on during that time?


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## EleGirl

Faithful Wife said:


> Sorry I don't know how I copied the quote part twice.


You can edit the post and remove the duplicate. Or if you are on a device that will not allow it, just let me know and I'll do it.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

Hope1964 said:


> Ya, no, that would probably turn him RIGHT off.
> 
> We have a pretty good sex life actually, I'm not into anything totally weird or far out - I enjoy the 'making love' for the most part. I just get into bad girl mode every once in a while, and I don't think he really knows what to do with me when I do.
> 
> Of course all of this is complicated (less so as time goes on) with the fact that he cheated, and called our marriage sexless in his online ads trying to find a fvck buddy. There's a wee bit of the madonna/wh0re thing going on with him I think.


But if he doesn't like to f**k, then why in the world would he have done this?

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## EleGirl

Hope1964 said:


> Ya, no, that would probably turn him RIGHT off.
> 
> We have a pretty good sex life actually, I'm not into anything totally weird or far out - I enjoy the 'making love' for the most part. I just get into bad girl mode every once in a while, and I don't think he really knows what to do with me when I do.
> 
> Of course all of this is complicated (less so as time goes on) with the fact that he cheated, and called our marriage sexless in his online ads trying to find a fvck buddy. There's a wee bit of the madonna/wh0re thing going on with him I think.


I think that some men have a problem with their wife or SO having a 'bad girl' side. It goes along with a 'Madonna/Wh0re' complex type thing. They might do that with a short term girlfriend. But not with a serious relationship.

I dated one guy who was like that. I really liked him and it was getting serious until he switched into that mode.


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## EleGirl

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> But if he doesn't like to f**k, then why in the world would he have done this?


With the Madonna/wh0re complex, a guy does not want that kind of sex with his wife. She is the Madonna, the woman he makes love to.

He needs a "wh0re" to really let lose, hence looking to cheat with a fvck buddy.

Note that the number one reason given by men for not wanting sex with their wives is "She isn’t sexually adventurous enough for me." IN the book it discusses what this really means. For a lot of they guys, it means that they will not bring more to the bedroom themselves and they will not accept more from their wives.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

Thanks for sharing 'Why men say they've stopped'. If I had to answer for my husband, there would be a few definites that are on the list.

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## EleGirl

Hope1964 said:


> Ya, no, that would probably turn him RIGHT off.
> 
> We have a pretty good sex life actually, I'm not into anything totally weird or far out - I enjoy the 'making love' for the most part. I just get into bad girl mode every once in a while, and I don't think he really knows what to do with me when I do.
> 
> Of course all of this is complicated (less so as time goes on) with the fact that he cheated, *and called our marriage sexless in his online ads trying to find a fvck buddy.* There's a wee bit of the madonna/wh0re thing going on with him I think.


As I've said, the last 7 years of my marriage to my son's father were sexless... his doing. 

In the last year before I left I found out that he was telling people that his marriage was sexless and blamed me for it. And that of course got him they sympathy he needed to justify his constant cheating.

He even had the Gaul to say to me near that end that, well what could he do when I got to the point where I did not want sex. I had the great urge to pick up something large and bash him in the head. What an f'n liar!! I had brought up the need for sex throughout all those years and he just stonewalled. And now it was my fault. People play games in their heads to excuse their own bad behavior.


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## Anon Pink

Faithful Wife said:


> Sorry I don't know how I copied the quote part twice.




LOL but what's important is that you've grown comfortable quoting. >


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## notmyrealname4

For most of our relationship (dating, living together, marriage); we had sex regularly. We've been together for 31 years.

I'm guesstimating that it was about 5-6 years ago that sex started to fall off the map, because my husband did not have any desire for me or sex. Who knows which. Maybe some of both.

He is overweight; about 60 pounds overweight. He has back issues. 

About a year ago he had bloodwork done and he does have low testosterone. The doctor told him, but did not suggest that anything needed to be done about it.

At that time he started taking blood pressure meds and anti-depressants. His low sex drive then basically turned into no sex drive.

When we do sometimes have sex; he will now alternate between premature ejaculation (always been that way), or occasionally not being able to finish easily and losing his erection. He says orgasms don't feel as strong and he has much less ejaculate.

Believe me when I say that he will do NOTHING with regards to exercise and diet. I could ramble on for a few paragraphs describing how I've tried to persuade, motivate, help, assist him to change these things. Bottom line; if it doesn't taste good (fried, sugary, salty) he won't eat it. If the exercise isn't the team sports or racquet sports he likes; he won't do it. Walking hurts his back; he won't wear a back support. And I am now so emotionally spent from decades of encouraging him to look out for his health that I don't bother anymore. I am exhausted.

Since coming to TAM in April 2014, I've learned a lot. And it has helped me to know that I'm not alone in this.

But, I have now reached the point where I don't care. This used to interest me, when I'd read posts about men [ mostly] in sexless marriages. They'd say how they eventually started to not desire sex anymore; at least not with their wife.

And I can testify to the truth of that. For the last year or so, I have gone through a sort of self-loathing that I didn't think was possible. I mean, when I think of wanting sex, I feel disgust with myself. I feel completely unwantable and unlovable.

I did come to realize that it is because my husband doesn't want me.

But, I'm now in a weird place that I don't really know how to describe. It's basically a numb feeling. As if sex is something that happens to other people, and I am listening on a conversation that doesn't apply to me anymore.

Even reading posts about people describing their sex lives. I feel like I am reading it "from a distance"? Does that make sense? Like, "that must be rough to have that particular sexual issue", or "hmm, people do interesting things in sex": but now I feel like sexual people are talking in a language I used to know, but can't remember a lot of anymore.

About two days ago, I asked my husband to cuddle me. He didn't really want to; he was futzing around with his tablet; so he draped his leg over me. Even that felt good; just laying on the bed with his leg crisscrossed over mine. Then after a little while I asked him again, and he snuggled up behind me and cuddled me, it felt so nice. I told him how much I missed stuff like that. He said he did too (he always says that ).

I still cuddle with him when he will. It's a bit dangerous though, because my skin warms up and I start to get that "hungry" feeling inside. But, alternately, I get a lovely warm, happy feeling that goes all through me from being touched.

He usually gets bored after about 10 minutes, and pulls away. I always thank him for obliging me. If I don't ask, it might never happen again.


But out-and-out sex, I have just figured it is over. It might be easier to withdraw if I stop the occasional snuggle sessions. I don't know. I don't know what I will be like with no physical affection at all. I do cuddle my cat babies a lot. And that is good. But it's a maternal type feeling that goes with it; not a man-woman feeling.

Masturbating now makes me feel like a sorry excuse for a human being. I tried a few "toys". My husband found one and just about hit the roof. Weird. But that doesn't matter anymore; because I feel like an idiot using them. They remind me that I have to use them because my husband doesn't need/want to have sex anymore.


There isn't a conclusion. This thread topic is why I came to TAM, so I thought I'd contribute to it.

And, I now believe that sexlessness is a part of getting old for some of us. I am trying to make peace with that and accept it.

My husband is not abusive. He is not a bad, evil, cruel guy.

I would not get divorced because of this. This is a stage of life.

And, I am now at the point where I cannot even imagine having sex with anyone else, ever. That is new to me; but it's true. It kind of occurred to me a few months ago. So, I've moved into a different stage.


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## john117

ED help addresses the plumbing aspects of male arousal but does not increase desire per se. T-therapy may help there. In either case, there may be underlying medical conditions that make it challenging for the treatments to work. Not everyone can or should get those.

Anywho, another parameter missing is culture. In some cultures talking about one's jewels is not quite easy to do. In some it is. Also FOO. These are standard issue factors that influence the outcome.

The most telling one is the man's willingness to actually do something. T-gel, blue pill, or duct tape vs watching the Cubs.


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## anonmd

Hope1964 said:


> Ya, no, that would probably turn him RIGHT off.
> 
> We have a pretty good sex life actually, I'm not into anything totally weird or far out - I enjoy the 'making love' for the most part. I just get into bad girl mode every once in a while, and I don't think he really knows what to do with me when I do.
> 
> Of course all of this is complicated (less so as time goes on) with the fact that he cheated, and called our marriage sexless in his online ads trying to find a fvck buddy. There's a wee bit of the madonna/wh0re thing going on with him I think.


Ok, if it won't work it won't. 

Works for me, I don't view it as some sort of bad girl thing at all, just a bit of mid-making love communication on what she would like in the moment. What she would or would not like is generally a guessing game so a little direct communication at the right time is welcome.


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## Red Sonja

The sex in my marriage stopped suddenly (no taper off) in the third year. It took me 6 months (of no nookie) to get up the courage to ask him about it. I got no answer; he literally did not speak during that conversation so I backed off. And so began the twisting agony. He would ignore my attempts at initiating/seduction; sometimes he was more blatant about it as in actually removing my hands from his body or otherwise pushing me off of him. He would do similar things with ordinary affection … dodge kisses, move my hands, passive hugs, etc. Note: he would also regularly turn down blow jobs. I initiated a few additional discussions over the years in an effort to find out “why” or what I could do differently. I would get no reply at all or, some version of “What? We just had sex!” (denial). Our frequency varied from 2 month to 18 month intervals.

When he finally consented to MC after 20+ years of this crap he had the nerve to tell the therapist, in our first session, that our sexless-ness was his major problem with the marriage. In other words he judo-flipped me. He was extremely passive-aggressive about everything and, this is what these types do to their partners. I have no idea what happened in that third year of marriage to start this.  There were no adverse events … no health problems, no financial problems, no career problems, no children born, no deaths, nothing, nada, zip. And, yes I know I was stupid for staying so long, especially for the 8 years of trying to figure out what the problem was and how to fix it. However, after that I was stuck because of commitments made to my DD that are mentioned in my other posts.

For reference, I never refused him when he initiated, why would I when I was starving for it? I was and still am 5’9.5” tall, 150lbs and a US size 8; I still fit in my wedding dress when I burned the mutherfvcker 3 years ago. His T levels were always in the 700-800 range, he was (and still is) in extraordinary physical shape (6’3”/190lbs) and there were never any incidents of ED.

So now you know why the “did you refuse him?”, “did you gain weight?”, “where are the studies?”, “this can’t be true!” crap pi$$es me off so much.

P.S. I am making up for lost time now.


----------



## uhtred

I think you are married to my wife. :smile2:

My wife really wants to be sure I get an O every time, but tries to find the easiest way to do that. Certain things always work - but that doesn't mean the are things that I particularly enjoy. It seems impossible to convince her that orgasm != good_sex. 

She also does not see fcking as fun. Does not want enthusiastic sex. 


I don't think you should fake. If it isn't happening, just tell him. If you think there is something that you would enjoy then tell him that "tonight I really need XYZ", but if he doesn't want to do it, then don't make him think he has solved the "problem" some other way.


I have a great deal of sympathy for anyone who cheats in a relationship like this. 






Hope1964 said:


> My husband thinks MY orgasm is the only goal of us having sex. When I have tried to explain to him how selfish that is of him, he's totally baffled. He is trying, but there is still work to be done
> 
> When I say it's selfish of him to think I have GOT to orgasm every single time, what I mean is that puts a LOT of pressure on me. And what ends up happening is that I will fake one sometimes just so he gets ON with things. Because it always has to be the exact same way too: his fingers, coconut oil, on my clitoris. Which doesn't always work for me.
> 
> He also always has to MAKE LOVE, not FVCK. Sometimes I just want to fvck. _Making love_ every.single.time drives me batty.


----------



## TaDor

EleGirl said:


> There are many different reasons that cause men to not want sex with their wife.
> 
> In your cause, as you describe, you wanted sex but just could not do it. I think that is an important thing for some women to learn, that usually ED has nothing to do with her. If a woman takes the attitude that your wife did, she needs to stop it and get a clue.
> 
> There are things that can be done to figure out the cause of ED, is it physical or psychological? If it's physical the husband can seek medial help. If it's philological, then it might be that he does not want sex with his wife. And they need to deal with that. There are some men who refused to see a doctor or anyone else to try to find out what's causing the ED. I think that when a man refuses to get help for ED, he's basically telling his wife that he could care less about having a sex life with her.


It took a while for her to get that clue... Look, more guys don't understand how girl parts work than the other way around... okay  She couldn't wrap it around her head that I couldn't get hard for her, when there are guys who wanted to date her, etc - even after I kicked her out (we're back together).

For many men, talking to their doctor about it - is a challenge. I am better than most... but still, its something us GUYS don't want to bring up... we're conditioned to be MEN, etc.. .whatever stupid stuff.

But hey, I can talk about it here easily.

I hated how she felt about herself - even thou I told her many times it wasn't her. Like many women - she has body image issues. (She's 5' - 2" / 102lbs / A-cup - she wishes she was a C-cup)


----------



## uhtred

What you wrote largely matches how I feel, and I suspect how many others feel as well. The only difference is that my wife loves to cuddle, just no sex. Cuddling may make it worse by being a reminder of what I can't have.

Thoughts: 

You are not unwanted. Your husband is simply incapable of wanting anyone.He is nearly asexual, an orientation like being gay. Other people could, and likely do want you. 

He does not, and never will understand how much he is hurting you. He doesn't have the ability to experience what you are missing. To him you are complaining because you don't get to eat dessert all the time (this is the phrase my wife used to use). 

Many other people do have active happy sex lives. It is not some fantasy - there are passionate couples. It would be wonderful for you to have that. So, you must consciously make a choice: You can leave your husband and have a passionate sex life with someone else, or you can stay. with him While it is a terrible choice, it at least is a choice that you get to make. 

At some sad point you will realize that you no longer desire him. That helps. I don't know if that can ever be reversed. 

Enjoy fantasy, masturbation, porn. Why not? It would be OK if he were physically disabled and unable to be intimate with you, so it is fine since he is emotionally disabled. A toy is a poor substitute for a live human, but if it is your only option, then you might as well. There is some good porn out there too - why not watch, its not as if it will damage your sex life at home. 

How dare he hit the roof about your using a toy?  If he ever makes a comment again, as him how he would like you to relieve sexual tension since he is not willing to be intimate with you. 

You have my sympathy. 




notmyrealname4 said:


> snip
> But, I have now reached the point where I don't care. This used to interest me, when I'd read posts about men [ mostly] in sexless marriages. They'd say how they eventually started to not desire sex anymore; at least not with their wife.
> 
> And I can testify to the truth of that. For the last year or so, I have gone through a sort of self-loathing that I didn't think was possible. I mean, when I think of wanting sex, I feel disgust with myself. I feel completely unwantable and unlovable.
> 
> I did come to realize that it is because my husband doesn't want me.
> 
> But, I'm now in a weird place that I don't really know how to describe. It's basically a numb feeling. As if sex is something that happens to other people, and I am listening on a conversation that doesn't apply to me anymore.
> 
> Even reading posts about people describing their sex lives. I feel like I am reading it "from a distance"? Does that make sense? Like, "that must be rough to have that particular sexual issue", or "hmm, people do interesting things in sex": but now I feel like sexual people are talking in a language I used to know, but can't remember a lot of anymore.
> 
> About two days ago, I asked my husband to cuddle me. He didn't really want to; he was futzing around with his tablet; so he draped his leg over me. Even that felt good; just laying on the bed with his leg crisscrossed over mine. Then after a little while I asked him again, and he snuggled up behind me and cuddled me, it felt so nice. I told him how much I missed stuff like that. He said he did too (he always says that ).
> 
> I still cuddle with him when he will. It's a bit dangerous though, because my skin warms up and I start to get that "hungry" feeling inside. But, alternately, I get a lovely warm, happy feeling that goes all through me from being touched.
> 
> He usually gets bored after about 10 minutes, and pulls away. I always thank him for obliging me. If I don't ask, it might never happen again.
> 
> 
> But out-and-out sex, I have just figured it is over. It might be easier to withdraw if I stop the occasional snuggle sessions. I don't know. I don't know what I will be like with no physical affection at all. I do cuddle my cat babies a lot. And that is good. But it's a maternal type feeling that goes with it; not a man-woman feeling.
> 
> Masturbating now makes me feel like a sorry excuse for a human being. I tried a few "toys". My husband found one and just about hit the roof. Weird. But that doesn't matter anymore; because I feel like an idiot using them. They remind me that I have to use them because my husband doesn't need/want to have sex anymore.
> 
> 
> There isn't a conclusion. This thread topic is why I came to TAM, so I thought I'd contribute to it.
> 
> And, I now believe that sexlessness is a part of getting old for some of us. I am trying to make peace with that and accept it.
> 
> My husband is not abusive. He is not a bad, evil, cruel guy.
> 
> I would not get divorced because of this. This is a stage of life.
> 
> And, I am now at the point where I cannot even imagine having sex with anyone else, ever. That is new to me; but it's true. It kind of occurred to me a few months ago. So, I've moved into a different stage.


----------



## Faithful Wife

@Red Sonja

Thank you for that post. 

Do you think your ex had a PD? My friend whose H seems to have one, he acts like you just described about your ex.


----------



## Red Sonja

Faithful Wife said:


> @Red Sonja
> 
> Thank you for that post.
> 
> Do you think your ex had a PD? My friend whose H seems to have one, he acts like you just described about your ex.


I know he had a PD, he was a narcissist. Two psychologists (one was the MC) told me he was high enough on the spectrum for it to be classified as clinical. I wish I had known that years ago, but once I was told and NPD was explained to me then I knew there was no hope for improvement.

He flipped out when I left him. :scratchhead:


----------



## EleGirl

TaDor said:


> It took a while for her to get that clue... Look, more guys don't understand how girl parts work than the other way around... okay  She couldn't wrap it around her head that I couldn't get hard for her, when there are guys who wanted to date her, etc - even after I kicked her out (we're back together).
> 
> *For many men, talking to their doctor about it - is a challenge. I am better than most... but still, its something us GUYS don't want to bring up... we're conditioned to be MEN, etc.. .whatever stupid stuff.
> *
> But hey, I can talk about it here easily.
> 
> I hated how she felt about herself - even thou I told her many times it wasn't her. Like many women - she has body image issues. (She's 5' - 2" / 102lbs / A-cup - she wishes she was a C-cup)


Yes, some men have a hard time talking to their doctor. Those men need to decide what's more important to them, their marriage for avoiding the doctor.


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish

Red Sonja said:


> I know he had a PD, he was a narcissist. Two psychologists (one was the MC) told me he was high enough on the spectrum for it to be classified as clinical. I wish I had known that years ago, but once I was told and NPD was explained to me then I knew there was no hope for improvement.
> 
> He flipped out when I left him. :scratchhead:


So you never really got an explanation on why he stopped having sex with you? Was he having an affair? (Sorry, I don't know your story)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Hope1964

I wonder how many men stop having sex with their wife as a kind of self defense mechanism? Have you seen that addressed, Elegirl? What I mean is, they go into marriage expecting their wife to cut them off sooner or later, so before she does HE pulls the plug. Maybe they go into marriage fully expecting to have sex for a couple years or so and then none for the rest of their lives. Or maybe they just expect to cheat on their wife at some point after it dries up at home. If sexual expectations are talked about with their wife before they get married, they just tell her what they think she wants to hear.


----------



## Fozzy

Hope1964 said:


> I wonder how many men stop having sex with their wife as a kind of self defense mechanism? Have you seen that addressed, Elegirl? What I mean is, they go into marriage expecting their wife to cut them off sooner or later, so before she does HE pulls the plug. Maybe they go into marriage fully expecting to have sex for a couple years or so and then none for the rest of their lives. Or maybe they just expect to cheat on their wife at some point after it dries up at home. If sexual expectations are talked about with their wife before they get married, they just tell her what they think she wants to hear.


It's hard to picture anyone willingly signing up for this. If you fully expect your wife to cut you off, I think you'd be more likely just to not marry her.


----------



## EllisRedding

Fozzy said:


> It's hard to picture anyone willingly signing up for this. If you fully expect your wife to cut you off, I think you'd be more likely just to not marry her.


Agreed, I can't imagine anyone preemptively cutting off sex b/c they figure it will go away sooner or later. I can see avoiding sex as a defense mechanism due to ED/PE, rejection, or simply a way to handle frustration where there is a drive incompatibility.


----------



## john117

Fozzy said:


> It's hard to picture anyone willingly signing up for this. If you fully expect your wife to cut you off, I think you'd be more likely just to not marry her.


The cutoff does not occur at day 2 or year 2. But after many years, chronic rejection does change one's perspective to the point of rejecting himself.

The common wisdom is to accept infrequent sex and work hard to improve yourself, make yourself more desirable, blah blah. I think another approach may be to mirror the other person's behavior to a tee, and if this does not cause a serious talk after a time, to call it a day.


----------



## Hope1964

Fozzy said:


> It's hard to picture anyone willingly signing up for this. If you fully expect your wife to cut you off, I think you'd be more likely just to not marry her.


I can see it. If a guy has been raised to expect this, from ANY woman, then maybe he will just find one who satisfies whatever his other needs are and marry THAT one. Kind of like women who are raised in religions where it's expected they will grow up and marry a guy who has more than one wife. They just don't know any better, and by the time they do they think their way is the right way.


----------



## jorgegene

i was first introduced to this issue a few years before i joined TAM. i was in a sexless relationship and wanted to seek advice/information about this.

so i joined a large general forum with a subgroup called 'living in a sexless marriage'. first thing that shocked me was that there were about 50K+ members of that sub-forum!

the next thing that thing that struck me was well more than half of the scores of stories i read were by women. heartbreaking, gut wrenching stories that would make you sad and angry at the same time.
mind you, many of them were by men too as you might imagine. most of the stories evoked just plain meanness by the deniers.


----------



## EleGirl

Hope1964 said:


> I wonder how many men stop having sex with their wife as a kind of self defense mechanism? Have you seen that addressed, Elegirl? What I mean is, they go into marriage expecting their wife to cut them off sooner or later, so before she does HE pulls the plug. Maybe they go into marriage fully expecting to have sex for a couple years or so and then none for the rest of their lives. Or maybe they just expect to cheat on their wife at some point after it dries up at home. If sexual expectations are talked about with their wife before they get married, they just tell her what they think she wants to hear.


I would not be surprised if this happens. But I've never read anything about it actually happening. People do self sabotage themselves and their marriages in all sort of ways. Stereotypes often play into it.

I know that my ex went into marriage expecting to cheat. His father cheated very openly. He had talked about things related to this before we married. I just did not realize that he intended to be his father.


----------



## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed, I can't imagine anyone preemptively cutting off sex b/c they figure it will go away sooner or later. I can see avoiding sex as a defense mechanism due to ED/PE, rejection, or simply a way to handle frustration where there is a drive incompatibility.


I don't think that they consciously decide to preemptively cut off sex. I think that they go into the marriage expecting it to happen so they start behaving as if that's the only possible outcome.


----------



## john117

Hope1964 said:


> I can see it. If a guy has been raised to expect this, from ANY woman, then maybe he will just find one who satisfies whatever his other needs are and marry THAT one. Kind of like women who are raised in religions where it's expected they will grow up and marry a guy who has more than one wife. They just don't know any better, and by the time they do they think their way is the right way.


That's why cultural stereotypes and FOO issues are so difficult to overcome. If a spouse has been raised to believe that sex becomes infrequent after 40 and rare after 50, you're battling to overcome deeply ingrained culture issues, not just individual beliefs.


----------



## john117

EleGirl said:


> I know that my ex went into marriage expecting to cheat. His father cheated very openly. He had talked about things related to this before we married. I just did not realize that he intended to be his father.


And that's why understanding your future in-laws is critical to predicting the outcome of any marriage...


----------



## TaDor

EleGirl said:


> Yes, some men have a hard time talking to their doctor. Those men need to decide what's more important to them, their marriage for avoiding the doctor.


Look at what cheaters do, in which they'll keep saying their lies - even with proof. And after they break up a family and the fog lifts - some are afraid to approach or try to make things right.

As for men... having a non-functional toy - is harsh. Just as for women, their breasts can make a woman have issues. But we can't have sex without an erection. It's miserable and awkward trying to have sex with a softy-limp penis, if you think its bad on our end - I am betting we're having a worse time with it.

I don't have shame about sex. I was taught early what sex was about (childrens book) and use logic and maturity to not give a damn. I told me long-time doc whats going on, he gives me 4 Viagra samples (which I break into 6 doses) that worked half the time - and he did blood work on me. My T-level was top-shape for a 45yr old (no smoking, no drugs, light on the booze, work-out). And yet, I take the pill, getting very good oral, lusting after my woman, wanting to make love to her... and nothing.

As with doc's suggestions... also practice (alone) to get things restarted again. (This is a PSA)


----------



## EleGirl

I quoted/posted this from another thread. It's a very sad post. Reminds me a lot of the situation that I went through. 



wringo123 said:


> I have posted a couple of previous threads about my husband's ED and porn addiction and just wanted to
> share a few things with all the husbands and wives out there who deny their spouses a fulfilling intimate life ...
> 
> I'd rather not go into all the events and drama of the past several months but the short story is after many years of a virtually sexless marriage and giving him multiple chances and every benefit of every doubt he was unwilling to change. He continued to engage to behavior that he knew hurt me (even if he thought I didn't know) while making half assed attempts at solving the situation. It was never sincere.
> 
> I loved him. In almost every other way we were so good together. Common interests and goals, really enjoyed each other's company. He was my rock when I lost my parents, had kid drama and financial difficulty. He took care of me when I was sick, he listened to me when I needed to vent. He supported and encouraged me in a very scary career change. He was more than my best friend, I was closer to him than I have ever been to anyone, I depended on him like no one else, he knew me better than anyone. He was considerate and attentive and loving in virtually every other way. But for all that I do not love him any more.
> 
> He killed it with a thousand cuts every time he chose porn over me, every time he refused to acknowledge the pain he caused me and failed to understand the incredible crushing devastation to your self esteem it is to know that not even your own husband wants you. Every time he tried to rationalize his behavior and minimize my pain because " it wasn't about me", my love died a little bit. I dont hate him or resent him or am even mad at him, I just stopped loving him.
> 
> So if you are some version of him please do not fool yourself into thinking that your actions are not having an effect on your spouse and on your marriage, just because you don't think they should. Perhaps you can compartmentalize you feelings, but I guarantee your spouse cannot. And eventually they will just stop loving you. It doesn't matter what else you do right or well. It might take a month or a year or 10 years but sooner or later it will hit them that they just don't love you anymore.
> 
> I hope losing me was worth to my husband whatever it was he was able to keep by not facing his demons.


Talk About Marriage - Reply to Topic


----------



## peacem

Looking back and thinking about the things we had discussed his reasons for turning away from me were various and complex.

His body was changing. He was completely unaware at a relatively young age (40's) that his body may not perform like it did in his 20's - nobody talks about it. Using porn was a fairly safe way to keep up the fantasy that he was still capable of doing the things he did when he was young. Having sex with me was risky because there was a chance that it just wasn't going to play ball. 

He comes from a generation of young men who first had internet access in their homes and there was an explosion of freely available, all you can eat buffet of porn. Going from a very repressed Christian family to being an independent, autonomous adult where you don't need to go to the next town for porn, was hugely rewarding and exciting. Suppression = explosion.

He worked with lots of men who normalised porn use which gave him a sense of entitlement. Even those who clearly had an unhealthy relationship with porn (i.e the guy who was married but would frequent cams and explain in great detail the next day what she did. "Why have sex with your wife when you can choose any beautiful woman from all over the world" - pretty much exact words. This entitlement and fear of missing out on something became overwhelming.

I know for certain that my H gets used to a certain sensation and becomes rather connected to it. For instance, when we first started to build our relationship back up he could only ejaculate using his hand. Two years down the line his preference is PIV, definitely not with hand. His brain latches on to one sensation and struggles with a change. So it didn't take much consecutive masturbation with a firm grip for his brain to only respond to that. He didn't quite understand the link, but he found it hugely shaming not to be able to finish PIV. He also would become anxious about my own insecurities and fears if sex wasn't good (i.e I never felt good enough).

So looking back it was never really about me, though there are things I wish I had done differently. I do believe that good men, who are otherwise caring husbands, denying their spouse sex, in the first instance need to stop masturbation for a good length of time. Just to reset and start from the beginning of exploration and intimacy with the woman they love. They also need to exercise other senses other than eye and brain. Touch, smell, taste is something masturbation and fantasy cannot provide but is hugely important in re-connecting. But it takes consistency and patience which is what I think a lot of people do not have. We gave each other a year to fix our problems but things slowly got better after a few months. But those early weeks and months of trying new things and determination had a lot of set backs, hits and misses. You have to be patient and keep going.


----------



## wringo123

EleGirl said:


> In your cause, as you describe, you wanted sex but just could not do it. I think that is an important thing for some women to learn, that usually ED has nothing to do with her. If a woman takes the attitude that your wife did, she needs to stop it and get a clue.


But the refusal to address the ED in any meaningful way or to find other ways to be intimate has everything to do with her.


----------



## Lostinthought61

What Wringo noted is exactly the point, and whether we are talking about men with ED issues or women who are going through menopause and decide that sex is off the table with their partner, we are essential saying the same thing, one partner is making the decision for both of them without the input and thoughts of the other person. In a rather nonchalant way their actions demonstrate to the other partner that if i can not enjoy sex then neither can you, then paint them in a corner where self-pleasuring is their only means of enjoyment, less they either leave their partner or commit transgressions. And when the other spouse protest they are mercilessly plagued with innuendo of selfishness, or reminded by the other how sex is not the most important thing of a marriage. Well i for one cry foul, that selfishness is a two way street, to deny the other of something that is special and important to them is to deny their personal happiness. While sex may not be the most important thing in a marriage intimacy is, with out that there is no marriage, there is two people living under the same roof with common goals (i.e. children). and that is more of partnership than marriage. 
This type of one-sided relationships can not go on forever, ultimately something breaks, most likely the marriage, you can deny some one only so much, but in the end all you create is hostility. You can cage someone only so long until they can see freedom and never look back.


----------



## wringo123

Xenote said:


> ...or reminded by the other how sex is not the most important thing of a marriage...


I got that thrown in my face so many times its not even funny. My response was that food is not the most important thing in life, either, but try doing without it for awhile and see how happy a life you have. Physical intimacy is the food that feeds a marriage. 

There is a difference between "important" and "essential" and sex is an essential element of marriage.


----------



## uhtred

No link in a chain is the most important but all are essential. 



wringo123 said:


> I got that thrown in my face so many times its not even funny. My response was that food is not the most important thing in life, either, but try doing without it for awhile and see how happy a life you have. Physical intimacy is the food that feeds a marriage.
> 
> There is a difference between "important" and "essential" and sex is an essential element of marriage.


----------



## CharlieParker

wringo123 said:


> But the refusal to address the ED in any meaningful way or to find other ways to be intimate has everything to do with her.


Sorry, I just don't get him, and I think it's still on him and not you. When I got ED it was either I fix it, quickly, or set her free.



wringo123 said:


> Physical intimacy is the food that feeds a marriage.


Before we got married my wife sat me down and said she expected there would always be sex (I think in the context of even if we were mad at each other), she used the word oxygen. That discussion has served us both well.


----------



## MEM2020

Ele,

Great thread. I just want to throw out a couple real world situations I am familiar with:

1. Deb and Ted. 
Ted had a low sex drive when they began dating in highschool. Low - but not zero. They kept dating thru college and then lawschool for him. And then they married - and sex mostly went away. After their first of three kids - it went away except for procreation. 

Totally honest view of Deb from this man: Deb is just terrific. Kind, funny, smart, generous, oh yeah this isn't some bullshlt lead up to 'she has a good personality' - Deb is very pretty. And fit. She's hot. 

They finally divorced this year after almost 30 years together. 

2. Kim and Rich.
Rich turned 53 at which point he developed a touch of ED and abruptly ended their sex life. Kim is great. Very pretty - fit - easy to talk to. She tries to talk to hm about it - and he refuses. 

One last - and more difficult example. More difficult because - the cases above - we became friends with the couples thru M2's relationship with the women. This last one - the man is my friend.

Dan and Doris. They are BOTH really attractive. And fun and smart. 

Married almost 20 years now. Almost got divorced this year. Why? Because they've only been having sex 2/month for the whole marriage. Well not exactly. THEY have sex with each other 2/month. But umm Dan - has sex with himself 28/29 times a month. Well not exactly with himself - with his laptop. 

So she finally figured out that almost 95% of his sexual energy goes to porn. Understandably flipped out and demanded a divorce. They are in counseling. And fwiw - she has been chronically frustrated sexually - and somehow - he's been ok with that.

So that's it. The only sexless/near sexless couples we know - it's entirely the man.




EleGirl said:


> I would like this thread to be a resource for women who are in sexless, or near sexless marriages in which it is their husbands who don’t want sex. I’m hoping that women dealing with this issue will post and talk about what they are going through.
> 
> About 20% of marriages are sexless. A sexless marriage is defined as one in which the couple has sex 10 or fewer times a year.
> 
> We hear a lot about women withholding sex and thus making a marriage sexless, or near sexless. There is a lot of empathy/sympathy out there for men stuck in such a marriage.
> 
> What we don’t hear of much is that about half of the sexless marriages were due to the husband choosing to make the marriage sexless. We are fed the falsehood that all men want sex all the time. Well that’s just not so. Some men do not want sex all the time.
> 
> Women who are in sexless marriages due to their husband’s choice to make the marriage sexless often feel that they have nowhere to turn, no one to talk to. They are rightly concerned that they will be blamed. It’s all their fault. When a woman thinks that all men want sex all the time, in her mind she becomes the only married woman who is so undesirable that her husband will not touch her.
> 
> Women are only now starting to be open about this. Marriage counselors are finally starting to talk about how common the problem is.
> 
> If you are a woman in a sexless marriage because it’s your husband’s choice to make it sexless, you are far from alone. Many of us women out here have had the same issue. We are, or were, married to a man like your husband.
> 
> TAM is a good place to come for moral support and some good advice. But there is no way that we here on TAM can give you all the input and help you need to resolve this issue. There are some books that I think would go a long way to help you understand what is going on in your marriage and figure out ways to fix it if at all possible. Here are some good books that have helped a lot of women.
> 
> Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It
> 
> Intimacy Anorexia: Healing the Hidden Addiction in Your Marriage
> 
> Sex-Starved Wives
> 
> 
> Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence


----------



## MEM2020

John,

This absolutely does happen. Chronic rejection kills desire for many folks. Because at a certain point - it feels like they are rejecting YOU - as opposed to momentarily declining that activity.





john117 said:


> The cutoff does not occur at day 2 or year 2. But after many years, chronic rejection does change one's perspective to the point of rejecting himself.
> 
> The common wisdom is to accept infrequent sex and work hard to improve yourself, make yourself more desirable, blah blah. I think another approach may be to mirror the other person's behavior to a tee, and if this does not cause a serious talk after a time, to call it a day.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

MEM2020 said:


> Chronic rejection kills desire for many folks.


Sorry ladies, tiptoed into the lounge and skulked for a while, reading your threads!

The line above resonated with me, as did early statements about punishment. My wife and I had a reasonable sex life before her affair, though with me always the initiator. Ok, I have always been putting plenty of jizz down the drain of the shower as going to bed was Pavlovian for me, I always had a hard on in anticipation, and more often than not she was tired, not tonight dear, all that kind of stuff.

But then she had an affair. After a month of frenetic bonding (or whatever the term is) I cracked. What more chronic rejection can be imagined than an affair? Somewhere in all the thrashing pain of that I said "**** it, after living through the ultimate rejection why should I then have to go asking for further "standard" rejections?", and stopped initiating. We haven't shagged since. Sadly I now see her naked and it doesn't turn me on in the slightest, basically the tenderness is gone. My bits still work as before, the shower drain is still doing it's job, but she broke something. 

I guess I'm part of the 9% in that survey.....


----------



## EleGirl

Florida_rosbif said:


> Sorry ladies, tiptoed into the lounge and skulked for a while, reading your threads!
> 
> The line above resonated with me, as did early statements about punishment. My wife and I had a reasonable sex life before her affair, though with me always the initiator. Ok, I have always been putting plenty of jizz down the drain of the shower as going to bed was Pavlovian for me, I always had a hard on in anticipation, and more often than not she was tired, not tonight dear, all that kind of stuff.
> 
> But then she had an affair. After a month of frenetic bonding (or whatever the term is) I cracked. What more chronic rejection can be imagined than an affair? Somewhere in all the thrashing pain of that I said "**** it, after living through the ultimate rejection why should I then have to go asking for further "standard" rejections?", and stopped initiating. We haven't shagged since. Sadly I now see her naked and it doesn't turn me on in the slightest, basically the tenderness is gone. My bits still work as before, the shower drain is still doing it's job, but she broke something.
> 
> I guess I'm part of the 9% in that survey.....


In your case, it does not sound like you at the sole one choosing to make the marriage sexless. She's not initiating either. Sounds mutual at this point. Also sound like it might be time for you to consider leaving.


----------



## john117

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> 
> This absolutely does happen. Chronic rejection kills desire for many folks. Because at a certain point - it feels like they are rejecting YOU - as opposed to momentarily declining that activity.


I think you haven't been rejected enough to know the difference, with all due respect.

As for your LD men friends, well... The two people I know and one i suspect of being sexless are all men. The three wives probably weigh in at a combined 1,000 lb... I wish I was kidding. 

Anecdotal data isn't.


----------



## notmyrealname4

MJJEAN said:


> For a man, sex = love. Full stop. I am sure he appreciates your affectionate gestures, efforts at weekend outings, and cooking his native cuisine, but all that combined won't mean nearly as much to him as regular enthusiastic sex.
> 
> As others have stated, telling him to visit a prostitute is equivalent to telling him that you no longer love him and don't care what he does as long as he isn't bothering you.





TAMAT said:


> PW,
> 
> When a woman no longer has sex with her boyfriend or husband his self-esteem and sense of confidence is frequently destroyed. When my wife does not respond to me there is deep feeling of inadequacy and ineptness, this is where the awkward groping and kissing comes from it's desperation to reestablish yourself as a man.





wantshelp said:


> You don't have a marriage, let alone a good one. The number one expectation of most men in marriage is sexual fulfillment. #1. This is how most men express their love.





These quotes are from a different thread. These are well-intended pieces of advice; no offense is intended to anyone.

But it's more perpetration of the belief that men always want sex, they cannot express love any other way, and that if sex is not the number one fulfilling activity in marriage, men are not in love.


----------



## MEM2020

You are right that I make that differentiation between rejecting the act and the person from extensive reading, not experience.

So I don't personally know how it feels. 

While my anecdotes aren't data - the actual data available on this isn't high quality. Partly because it is really hard to construct surveys that are both comprehensive and framed in a way that people will answer honestly. 






john117 said:


> I think you haven't been rejected enough to know the difference, with all due respect.
> 
> As for your LD men friends, well... The two people I know and one i suspect of being sexless are all men. The three wives probably weigh in at a combined 1,000 lb... I wish I was kidding.
> 
> Anecdotal data isn't.


----------



## john117

Eventually you get used to the rejections and move on, whether divorced or not. You get used to it. 

What you don't get used to is the feeling in the back of your mind that you should have tried something else. The doubt. The realization that what's wrong with your partner is so profoundly significant that they don't even begin to understand what's going on (ergo, self preservation neurons). 

Reading gives amazing information, and combined with personal experience it allows me to play prophet quite well. I don't wish the experience on anyone else tho .


----------



## 1RedKing

jorgegene said:


> i was first introduced to this issue a few years before i joined TAM. i was in a sexless relationship and wanted to seek advice/information about this.
> 
> so i joined a large general forum with a subgroup called 'living in a sexless marriage'. first thing that shocked me was that there were about 50K+ members of that sub-forum!
> 
> the next thing that thing that struck me was well more than half of the scores of stories i read were by women. heartbreaking, gut wrenching stories that would make you sad and angry at the same time.
> mind you, many of them were by men too as you might imagine. most of the stories evoked just plain meanness by the deniers.


EP ?
The ongoing version abet much smaller. http://iliasm.org

Sent from my HTC_0PJA10 using Tapatalk


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## Cletus

I suppose you could say that I'm that guy today. 

When I came here in 2012, I was looking for ways to deal with our 25 year sexual mismatch. I suppose you could say I was successful, because it no longer causes me any angst whatsoever. In fact, I find that I just don't care anymore.

I don't much think about sex, with my wife or with anyone else. I've come to fully embrace her sexual limitations as intrinsic to her personality, not something she has any real ability to change.

The end result? Near complete apathy on my part. I even find myself using all of the tried and true tricks of the trade like going to bed first to avoid giving the impression of any interest at all. The thought of engaging in what little we could share of a sex life just doesn't sound a good as rolling over and going to sleep. 

So our marriage is not sexless, since she still initiates strongly enough once every week or two that I have to respond - I am her only sexual outlet - but it is well on its way out the door, largely due my increasing disinterest.

So yeah, men can find themselves in the "don't care" column too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## Red Sonja

Cletus said:


> I even find myself using all of the tried and true tricks of the trade like going to bed first to avoid giving the impression of any interest at all. The thought of engaging in what little we could share of a sex life just doesn't sound a good as rolling over and going to sleep.
> 
> So our marriage is not sexless, since she still initiates strongly enough once every week or two that I have to respond - I am her only sexual outlet - but it is well on its way out the door, largely due my increasing disinterest.


The contempt contained in this quoted statement is astounding. Why would you want to stay in this situation? It sounds as if it's poisoning your psyche.


----------



## Cletus

Red Sonja said:


> The contempt contained in this quoted statement is astounding. Why would you want to stay in this situation? It sounds as if it's poisoning your psyche.


There's no contempt. Just acceptance. It is what it is, it's unlikely to ever change, and I don't really much care if it does. 

I don't much miss it, I'm not looking for it with another woman, and I can't fix it. I am largely at peace in a place I never thought I would be - unconcerned in the least with sex. It's actually sort of liberating.


----------



## uhtred

Its poison, very similar to the one I am swallowing. The problem is that there is a lot more to marriage than sex. A bad sex life really hurts a marriage, but after decades of marriage, it may still be better than the alternatives. 

Its easy to find someone who is happy to have lots of passionate sex. What is not easy is finding someone with whom the rest of the marriage would be as good and the morality of divorcing someone who has in on way been deceptive is very questionable. 

Do I abandon my wife of 30 years for someone else who will give me a good sex life? I couldn't live with myself if I did that. 





Red Sonja said:


> The contempt contained in this quoted statement is astounding. Why would you want to stay in this situation? It sounds as if it's poisoning your psyche.


----------



## brooklynAnn

uhtred said:


> Its poison, very similar to the one I am swallowing. The problem is that there is a lot more to marriage than sex. A bad sex life really hurts a marriage, but after decades of marriage, it may still be better than the alternatives.
> 
> Its easy to find someone who is happy to have lots of passionate sex. What is not easy is finding someone with whom the rest of the marriage would be as good and the morality of divorcing someone who has in on way been deceptive is very questionable.
> 
> Do I abandon my wife of 30 years for someone else who will give me a good sex life? I couldn't live with myself if I did that.


Everyone should know what they will accept and live with or with out. If you are happy without sex and will still choose your wife. Then, good for you. As outsiders we are never privy to the inner workings of a marriage nor we can truly understand what is going on between two people. What works for you may not work for someone else. 

I agree with you, sex is an important part of marriage but it's just a part. If my H had ED and could not take meds to fix it(eg. heart disese, highblood pressure, diabetes etc) I will not leave my H. There is too much love and the rest of the marriage is good. I can do without sex but not his love. IT all depends on the relationship between the couple. 

But if the marriage was bad and he was an ugly, nasty man, hell yes. I will be running to get a lawyer.


----------



## EleGirl

brooklynAnn said:


> Everyone should know what they will accept and live with or with out. If you are happy without sex and will still choose your wife. Then, good for you. As outsiders we are never privy to the inner workings of a marriage nor we can truly understand what is going on between two people. What works for you may not work for someone else.
> 
> I agree with you, sex is an important part of marriage but it's just a part. If my H had ED and could not take meds to fix it(eg. heart disese, highblood pressure, diabetes etc) I will not leave my H. There is too much love and the rest of the marriage is good. I can do without sex but not his love. IT all depends on the relationship between the couple.
> 
> But if the marriage was bad and he was an ugly, nasty man, hell yes. I will be running to get a lawyer.


This is why each person needs to make the decision for their own situation. There is a lot that comes into play.


----------



## *Deidre*

Florida_rosbif said:


> Sorry ladies, tiptoed into the lounge and skulked for a while, reading your threads!
> 
> The line above resonated with me, as did early statements about punishment. My wife and I had a reasonable sex life before her affair, though with me always the initiator. Ok, I have always been putting plenty of jizz down the drain of the shower as going to bed was Pavlovian for me, I always had a hard on in anticipation, and more often than not she was tired, not tonight dear, all that kind of stuff.
> 
> But then she had an affair. After a month of frenetic bonding (or whatever the term is) I cracked. What more chronic rejection can be imagined than an affair? Somewhere in all the thrashing pain of that I said "**** it, after living through the ultimate rejection why should I then have to go asking for further "standard" rejections?", and stopped initiating. We haven't shagged since. Sadly I now see her naked and it doesn't turn me on in the slightest, basically the tenderness is gone. My bits still work as before, the shower drain is still doing it's job, but she broke something.
> 
> I guess I'm part of the 9% in that survey.....


Why do you stay?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

*Deidre* said:


> Why do you stay?


I know *Deidre*, I know. Circumstances and children, it's all a bit complicated and no doubt will not end well. Until then, I'll accept living like a monk.


----------



## Red Sonja

uhtred said:


> Do I abandon my wife of 30 years for someone else who will give me a good sex life? I couldn't live with myself if I did that.


You make whatever decision is best for your situation. I left my husband after 28 years (25 sexless), not for someone else but because I could no longer bear what was happening to my psyche. My coping mechanisms were no longer effective and my daughter was launched into the world.

I live with myself just fine, no guilt whatsoever, I gave it my best effort.


----------



## *Deidre*

Florida_rosbif said:


> I know *Deidre*, I know. Circumstances and children, it's all a bit complicated and no doubt will not end well. Until then, I'll accept living like a monk.


I really don't ''like'' the comment here, but my ''like'' means I'm supporting you. lol :smile2:

I'm engaged, and I've been thinking about the vows ''for better or for worse,'' and I don't think cheating should fall into ''for worse.'' That is a dealbreaker. I understand you have kids, and that makes it hard, but I'm going to be praying for you. It's sad to have to live the way you are, however, there's a lot of joy in life besides what another person can bring to us. Always remember this.


----------



## uhtred

The question of what is covered under "worse" is a really good one.






*Deidre* said:


> I really don't ''like'' the comment here, but my ''like'' means I'm supporting you. lol :smile2:
> 
> I'm engaged, and I've been thinking about the vows ''for better or for worse,'' and I don't think cheating should fall into ''for worse.'' That is a dealbreaker. I understand you have kids, and that makes it hard, but I'm going to be praying for you. It's sad to have to live the way you are, however, there's a lot of joy in life besides what another person can bring to us. Always remember this.


----------



## john117

uhtred said:


> The question of what is covered under "worse" is a really good one.


I'm sure that "we can't have sex so soon after last time, my body can't handle it" then proceed to cycle 20 miles is not covered under "worse"


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## Florida_rosbif

uhtred said:


> The question of what is covered under "worse" is a really good one.


Given that the vows include "in sickness and in health", it is indeed an excellent question. Economic misery, zombie uprising, alien landing? :grin2:


----------



## *Deidre*

uhtred said:


> The question of what is covered under "worse" is a really good one.


someone should start a thread about it...


----------



## uhtred

Done - in general relationships. Don't know how to link. (I'm not good with technical stuff).



*Deidre* said:


> someone should start a thread about it...


----------



## EleGirl

I want to keep this thread on track for it's purpose. Let's stop the thread jack.


----------



## morituri

Please feel free to wield a virtual 2x4 on yours truly if the following seems stupid or has been already covered.

*When we talk about sex, what do we really mean*? Penis in Vagina intercourse or erotic,sensual, mutual, and physical, emotional and mental expression which may or may not include sexual intercourse.

Personally, sex is an all encompassing set of actions that involve emotions as well as physical sensations that start way before a man and a woman take their clothes off. It is NOT a masturbatory practice where a man a woman use it each others bodies to achieve mutual orgasms.

My point is that far from the mechanics of sex, there is the love and kindness that a man a woman (or man man or woman woman) exhibit towards one another that is not dependent on the outcome of rubbing each others genitals.


----------



## MEM2020

Ele,
I'm sorry that happened to you. I mean all of it - the husband - the counselor - the guys on TAM. 

I admit to having almost no visibility into this issue prior to TAM. We only knew one couple with this situation - until recently when it became 3 couples. 




EleGirl said:


> A large part of the reason that you see/read more about men whose wives withhold sex and make the marriage sexless, or near sexless, is that men have always felt open to complain about their wife withholding sex and a sexless marriage. Men get a lot of sympathy from other men and even from other women when the marriage is sexless.
> 
> And due to this societal openness on the topic for men, a lot of the earlier work on the topic has only looked at men with wives who withhold sex.
> 
> It's only been more recently that studies have started to be done that look at marriages in which the husband is the one who is withholding sex and making the marriage sexless.
> 
> Society has historically had to empathy/sympathy for women in this situation. For the most part a woman who dares to talk openly about a husband who does not want sex with her is pretty much attacked.. it's her fault, something is wrong with her. If only she would lose weight, wear more makeup, dress up in sexy things, and on and on.. . it's all on her. Women know this and so they don't talk about it.
> 
> I was in a marriage where my husband refused to have sex with me for 7 years... yes 7 years. I tried to bring it up in counseling and even the counselor attacked me and make all kinds of mean assumptions about why it was all my fault and my husband was a victim. All of this was imagination in the head of the counselor. That was the last time I ever tried talking about it to anyone... well until I came to TAM.
> 
> And do you know what was told me on TAM? Did I get all that sympathy that the men on TAM get when they have a wife who withholds? NOPE. Not one of the men on TAM offered any kind of empathy or help. The ones who replied laughed at me. I was told in several different ways that it was about time that women expensed this. After a few attempts to talk about it on TAM I just shut down.. for a few years.
> 
> But I kept watching women come here with this issue. And I kept watching them being told some pretty harsh stuff. That's when I started to find resources for these women and started posting to them.
> 
> 
> 
> So yea, don't derail this thread to argue about this. It's real. Studies have been done. This thread is to help women in this situation because it can be very hard for women to even be taken seriously when they have this problem in their marriage. When it comes to this topic, one of the first things that a woman needs to know is that her situation is not unique. It's pretty darn common. This thread is for those women who are living with this and need help.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> A large part of the reason that you see/read more about men whose wives withhold sex and make the marriage sexless, or near sexless, is that men have always felt open to complain about their wife withholding sex and a sexless marriage. Men get a lot of sympathy from other men and even from other women when the marriage is sexless.


It's a long running comedy trope and has been for most of recorded history. Heck, over half of old English comedy had it somewhere.

The old geezer whipping down pub or out fishing to avoid his "marital dutires" was as cliche as it was common IRL.


----------



## MEM2020

M2 had a serious boyfriend - a guy she thought about marrying - who had a low sex drive.

I kind of doubt it though. What I mean is - he was a healthy 22 year old male. He was also a flight attendant. My guess is that he was gay or bi. And I have nothing against gay/lesbian trans etc. folks. 

I do think it's cruel to marry someone who IS attracted to you, when you aren't all that attracted to them. 

M2 wouldn't have stayed in a sexless marriage though - so it's a good thing they broke up. 





spotthedeaddog said:


> It's a long running comedy trope and has been for most of recorded history. Heck, over half of old English comedy had it somewhere.
> 
> The old geezer whipping down pub or out fishing to avoid his "marital dutires" was as cliche as it was common IRL.


----------



## john117

Strange, I'm not a TV maven but can readily think of a few sitcoms with women in more aggressive or starving sex roles... The landlord's wife in threes company, Peggy Bundy.... Can't seem to recall the opposite with men unless it was common enough to not warrant attention.


----------



## wringo123

The common theme in those sitcoms is #1 it is funny when a man refuses his wife and #2 the problem is her, not him

Men don't think it's funny to be refused sex when they want it and if they don't want it, it must be her 
Do the math

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## john117

I understand, I'm just trying to see how the stereotypes play out. Three's Company especially took a lot of "risks".


----------



## CharlieParker

EleGirl said:


> But I kept watching women come here with this issue. And I kept watching them being told some pretty harsh stuff. That's when I started to find resources for these women and started posting to them.


I missed this post, glad MEM quoted it. Sorry for your experience. 

I know a former poster who came to TAM for advice to cope in her sexless marriage until the kids (youngest was 7) left the house. She was worried about kids with divorced parents, money issues, the house, being lonely, what's the best vibrator... After about 2 or 3 on TAM she divorced. 

She and the kids (and even XH) are much happier. Thank you Ele and the other women of TAM.


----------



## john117

Harsh stuff? Harsher than what some of us guys were / are told?

The prevailing wisdom is that if the man reports a sex starved marriage, he usually is told it's his fault for not having pro athlete looks, IB income, Mr. Rogers nice guyness, or Norm Abrams DIY skills... and Paula Deen cooking skills. 

If a woman reports same, the prevailing wisdom says it's the guy's fault. 

Am I reading TAM wrong? I don't remember the wrath of TAM descending upon women reporting SSM's... 

The wrath of TAM is exclusively reserved for self described LD and happy with it spouses


----------



## uhtred

Agree - as long as you make if "some men". 




wringo123 said:


> The common theme in those sitcoms is #1 it is funny when a man refuses his wife and #2 the problem is her, not him
> 
> Men don't think it's funny to be refused sex when they want it and if they don't want it, it must be her
> Do the math
> 
> Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

John,

The nature of this type problem is that it lends itself to hard questions. When someone is already feeling rejected the line between hard and harsh questions blurs. 





john117 said:


> Harsh stuff? Harsher than what some of us guys were / are told?
> 
> The prevailing wisdom is that if the man reports a sex starved marriage, he usually is told it's his fault for not having pro athlete looks, IB income, Mr. Rogers nice guyness, or Norm Abrams DIY skills... and Paula Deen cooking skills.
> 
> If a woman reports same, the prevailing wisdom says it's the guy's fault.
> 
> Am I reading TAM wrong? I don't remember the wrath of TAM descending upon women reporting SSM's...
> 
> The wrath of TAM is exclusively reserved for self described LD and happy with it spouses


----------



## Fozzy

john117 said:


> Harsh stuff? Harsher than what some of us guys were / are told?
> 
> The prevailing wisdom is that if the man reports a sex starved marriage, he usually is told it's his fault for not having pro athlete looks, IB income, Mr. Rogers nice guyness, or Norm Abrams DIY skills... and Paula Deen cooking skills.
> 
> If a woman reports same, the prevailing wisdom says it's the guy's fault.
> 
> Am I reading TAM wrong? I don't remember the wrath of TAM descending upon women reporting SSM's...
> 
> The wrath of TAM is exclusively reserved for self described LD and happy with it spouses



Well it really depends on who's doing the answering doesn't it?

A woman coming on here asking about her sexless marriage being answered by a guy in a sexless marriage is apt to be told that "he's just shut off because you probably denied him sex first".
A man coming on here asking about his sexless marriage being answered by the Alpha Bro Strike Force is going to be told that he's a beta pancake and needs to bootstrap himself before he grows a vagina.

It's unfortunate that new people coming on here to ask questions don't always have the benefit of knowing the histories and philosophies of those who offer advice.


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> Harsh stuff? Harsher than what some of us guys were / are told?
> 
> The prevailing wisdom is that if the man reports a sex starved marriage, he usually is told it's his fault for not having pro athlete looks, IB income, Mr. Rogers nice guyness, or Norm Abrams DIY skills... and Paula Deen cooking skills.
> 
> If a woman reports same, the prevailing wisdom says it's the guy's fault.
> 
> Am I reading TAM wrong? * I don't remember the wrath of TAM descending upon women reporting SSM's*...
> 
> The wrath of TAM is exclusively reserved for self described LD and happy with it spouses


That's probably because you are not a woman who came here and tried to talk about it.


----------



## john117

EleGirl said:


> That's probably because you are not a woman who came here and tried to talk about it.


The ones I recall {doobie, TCW, a few others} received lots of sympathy and good advise. Eventually a few fixed it, most divorced.... Compare and contrast with the Morton Downy Jr. Level responses that many men receive (from the Alpha Bro Strike Force or ABSF)...

Now, opening up ones inner self in TAM is tough, male or female... When you identify a woman poster that received the John or Copper Top treatment by as many people of the ABSF as we did, please let me know.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but the odds of a female poster being John'd or Copper Top'd are remarkably low.


----------



## Red Sonja

john117 said:


> Harsh stuff? Harsher than what some of us guys were / are told?


So now this is about who suffers the most, men or women? How is that helpful?


----------



## john117

Red Sonja said:


> So now this is about who suffers the most, men or women? How is that helpful?


It's not about who suffers the most. It's about what approaches work, for what severity case, and above all, the kinds of responses new posters are likely to receive in TAM.

I have a feeling, unfortunately, that male LD, while probably less than female LD percentage wise, is a lot harder to address. In other words, you might see fewer cases, but they're for the most part the (pun not intended) harder ones to fix. This is just my Social Science Guy hunch, tho. 

The same hunch says that women are more likely to put up with an LD husband for decades than the other way around.


----------



## PieceOfSky

EleGirl said:


> I was in a marriage where my husband refused to have sex with me for 7 years... yes 7 years. I tried to bring it up in counseling and even the counselor attacked me and make all kinds of mean assumptions about why it was all my fault and my husband was a victim. All of this was imagination in the head of the counselor. That was the last time I ever tried talking about it to anyone... well until I came to TAM.
> 
> And do you know what was told me on TAM? Did I get all that sympathy that the men on TAM get when they have a wife who withholds? NOPE. Not one of the men on TAM offered any kind of empathy or help. The ones who replied laughed at me. I was told in several different ways that it was about time that women expensed this. After a few attempts to talk about it on TAM I just shut down.. for a few years.


EleGirl,

I am sorry this happened to you and the others. That's an awful way to be treated. The worst feeling in the world when you're living daily with emotional pain is for someone -- for whatever reason -- to invalidate your experience and ignore what you're saying.

Had I been here, and had some of the other men who have come here since, I hope your experience would have been better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> It's not about who suffers the most. It's about what approaches work, for what severity case, and above all, the kinds of responses new posters are likely to receive in TAM.
> 
> I have a feeling, unfortunately, that male LD, while probably less than female LD percentage wise, is a lot harder to address. In other words, you might see fewer cases, but they're for the most part the (pun not intended) harder ones to fix. This is just my Social Science Guy hunch, tho.
> 
> The same hunch says that women are more likely to put up with an LD husband for decades than the other way around.


You are making the normal mistake in assuming that most (if not all) sexless marriages occur due to a LD spouse. That's not the case. Most of the time the spouse who does not want sex is not LD. They just do not want sex with their spouse.

Also, this thread is not a contest between male and females who are in sexless, or near sexless, marriages. The purpose of this thread, one more time, is to provide support to women who come to TAM due to a sexless/near-sexless marriage.

What you are doing here is basically creating a thread jack.


----------



## PieceOfSky

notmyrealname4 said:


> For most of our relationship (dating, living together, marriage); we had sex regularly. We've been together for 31 years.
> 
> I'm guesstimating that it was about 5-6 years ago that sex started to fall off the map, because my husband did not have any desire for me or sex. Who knows which. Maybe some of both.
> 
> He is overweight; about 60 pounds overweight. He has back issues.
> 
> About a year ago he had bloodwork done and he does have low testosterone. The doctor told him, but did not suggest that anything needed to be done about it.
> 
> At that time he started taking blood pressure meds and anti-depressants. His low sex drive then basically turned into no sex drive.
> 
> When we do sometimes have sex; he will now alternate between premature ejaculation (always been that way), or occasionally not being able to finish easily and losing his erection. He says orgasms don't feel as strong and he has much less ejaculate.
> 
> Believe me when I say that he will do NOTHING with regards to exercise and diet. I could ramble on for a few paragraphs describing how I've tried to persuade, motivate, help, assist him to change these things. Bottom line; if it doesn't taste good (fried, sugary, salty) he won't eat it. If the exercise isn't the team sports or racquet sports he likes; he won't do it. Walking hurts his back; he won't wear a back support. And I am now so emotionally spent from decades of encouraging him to look out for his health that I don't bother anymore. I am exhausted.
> 
> Since coming to TAM in April 2014, I've learned a lot. And it has helped me to know that I'm not alone in this.
> 
> *But, I have now reached the point where I don't care. This used to interest me, when I'd read posts about men [ mostly] in sexless marriages. They'd say how they eventually started to not desire sex anymore; at least not with their wife.
> 
> And I can testify to the truth of that. For the last year or so, I have gone through a sort of self-loathing that I didn't think was possible. I mean, when I think of wanting sex, I feel disgust with myself. I feel completely unwantable and unlovable.
> 
> I did come to realize that it is because my husband doesn't want me.
> 
> But, I'm now in a weird place that I don't really know how to describe. It's basically a numb feeling. As if sex is something that happens to other people, and I am listening on a conversation that doesn't apply to me anymore.
> 
> Even reading posts about people describing their sex lives. I feel like I am reading it "from a distance"? Does that make sense? Like, "that must be rough to have that particular sexual issue", or "hmm, people do interesting things in sex": but now I feel like sexual people are talking in a language I used to know, but can't remember a lot of anymore.
> *
> About two days ago, I asked my husband to cuddle me. He didn't really want to; he was futzing around with his tablet; so he draped his leg over me. Even that felt good; just laying on the bed with his leg crisscrossed over mine. Then after a little while I asked him again, and he snuggled up behind me and cuddled me, it felt so nice. I told him how much I missed stuff like that. He said he did too (he always says that ).
> 
> I still cuddle with him when he will. It's a bit dangerous though, because my skin warms up and I start to get that "hungry" feeling inside. But, alternately, I get a lovely warm, happy feeling that goes all through me from being touched.
> 
> He usually gets bored after about 10 minutes, and pulls away. I always thank him for obliging me. If I don't ask, it might never happen again.
> 
> 
> But out-and-out sex, I have just figured it is over. It might be easier to withdraw if I stop the occasional snuggle sessions. I don't know. I don't know what I will be like with no physical affection at all. I do cuddle my cat babies a lot. And that is good. But it's a maternal type feeling that goes with it; not a man-woman feeling.
> 
> *Masturbating now makes me feel like a sorry excuse for a human being. I tried a few "toys". My husband found one and just about hit the roof. Weird. But that doesn't matter anymore; because I feel like an idiot using them. They remind me that I have to use them because my husband doesn't need/want to have sex anymore.
> *
> 
> There isn't a conclusion. This thread topic is why I came to TAM, so I thought I'd contribute to it.
> 
> And, I now believe that sexlessness is a part of getting old for some of us. I am trying to make peace with that and accept it.
> 
> My husband is not abusive. He is not a bad, evil, cruel guy.
> 
> I would not get divorced because of this. This is a stage of life.
> 
> And, I am now at the point where I cannot even imagine having sex with anyone else, ever. That is new to me; but it's true. It kind of occurred to me a few months ago. So, I've moved into a different stage.


Wow. I know much of what you described. I have never expressed or heard anyone else express the part about reading here of other's sex lives and feeling I'm at such a distance. But it happens all the time these days, and so I often stay away.

Shame from masturbation, well, that is extremely familiar. It was more of a problem n the early days of my wife's withdrawal, perhaps because somehow she was the one (and only) that ever I felt I had "permission" to enjoy being a sexual being with. (Damnit, I'm 50 years old, I should not need anyone's permission.... That aspect of guilt has gotten better, but, still, it's hard not to suppress awareness of the fact --during the act -- this is all I'm getting, and according to her, it's about all I deserve).

I will divorce over this. But, it is not so much an absence of "sex". It is her chronic indifference to many aspects of the sort of companionship I want in the time I have left. It is not only sex that is missing. It is feeling loved, lovable, respected, admired, supported, seen, heard, valued, wanted. It is having a warm body next to mine, to hold, comfortably, relaxed, and at peace. It is having moments of contentment, shared contentment, and gratitude, shared gratitude, with and for the goodness and joy this world sometimes puts within reach.

I think you've made a mistake I have made -- put too much weight upon the judgement and/or response of the other. You need to know you are worthy, independent of his desires. You need to know you are entitled to pleasures, without shame. I know it is easy to slide down the hill of despair, but I hope you will try to catch yourself and not acquiesce. I hope you give him no more control of your destiny and self-worth than is healthy for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

No thread jack Ele. I'm simply pointing out the different realities between genders. If my input is not welcome I get the message.


----------



## john117

Piece,

I've echoed the self-worth sentiment many times. My self worth is not dependent on someone else's actions. If they want to come along for the journey, great. If not, see you in the afterworld after, hopefully, a prolonged alone period on this world 

I just completed a month of in-house separation due to the cat. Three more to go. Common wisdom says to never try to move out of the bedroom in such cases. Yet I've managed to create a post divorce simulation and absolutely love it. 

I think there's a lot to be said about channeling emotional energy towards someone or something other than your frigid or disinterested spouse. 

The previous poster mentioned her cats. I can see why... But what's the point of playing cuddle with someone who merely tolerates physical contact? That's lowering expectations a bit. 

The best coping mechanism is to feel super good about yourself in meaningful ways. Use the time to work on that. Not to hit the gym. To do something for yourself. 

My daughter told me about the great feeling on working with the cat next to her. I'm working on another patent application with cat as my design buddy. I feel *alone* yet content. I get things done. 

The faster you get him out of your head the faster you will learn how to cope and get over it. 

Become selfish. Payback is good.


----------



## no name

Hi guys, someone of you may remember my old thread about this topic. I'm pleased to update that I finally had that talk with my hubby, it was difficult for both of us to listen to each other but we finally r both more receptive to really listen to each other , and things r looking well. We have come to an agreement that suits both of us and finally he understands where I was coming from and now I understand him much better. He's already started improving initiating etc, he still
Doesn't know y he was inhibited to initiate but the talk we had has helped him to open up and feel comfortable to initiate. Thought you'd want to know that positive results can happen. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## peacem

john117 said:


> Piece,
> 
> [
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE]I've echoed the self-worth sentiment many times. My self worth is not dependent on someone else's actions. If they want to come along for the journey, great. If not, see you in the afterworld after, hopefully, a prolonged alone period on this world
Click to expand...

This is how I have learned to live my life over the past few years. Whenever I see myself looking for external validation I know that I am looking in the wrong direction. I work on myself esteem. The internal dialogue is very powerful.


----------



## Celes

I've experienced this on some level with my ex-fiance. He was the first man I ever slept with. I waited until we were engaged and was so in love. We talked about sex and he kept going on about it being something he liked and that he had a very high drive. Biggest lie ever. When we started having sex he would refuse to have sex more than once a week. And only really vanilla sex, in the same 1-2 positions. He turned me down frequently. I was 24 and he was 29. I'm fairly attractive and I've got a nice body. I felt horrible. He also made me feel very weird for wanting to swallow during BJs. Like I was an alien. We were totally incompatible sexually and fortunately broke up. I met my husband after and finally got to experience what good sex really was. 

There are definitely some men out there who aren't that into sex but feel the need to puff their chests out and pretend so they don't feel bad about it. Pressure from society I suppose.


----------



## EleGirl

Threads on this topic

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/353706-need-some-advice-4.html#post16707970

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/353882-husband-not-wanting-sex.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/353137-my-husband-doesnt-want-sex.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/353305-sexually-incompatible.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/354554-sexless-marriage-please-help.html


----------



## Hope1964

So the scheduling thing was fine at first but now it's tapering off. Of the last six scheduled sessions it's happened once. Part of that may have been because I had a bit of a health scare involving my lady parts. I asked him if that has anything to do with it and he said no, but I think that was a gut reaction more than anything else - his default is to deny.

So does anyone know anything about sex when you're trying to figure out if you have cervical cancer? Apparently there's an 8% chance I have it right now. I am being referred to a gynecologist for more info. But there's no reason we can't continue having sex. When he wants to.


----------



## EleGirl

Hope1964 said:


> So the scheduling thing was fine at first but now it's tapering off. Of the last six scheduled sessions it's happened once. Part of that may have been because I had a bit of a health scare involving my lady parts. I asked him if that has anything to do with it and he said no, but I think that was a gut reaction more than anything else - his default is to deny.
> 
> So does anyone know anything about sex when you're trying to figure out if you have cervical cancer? Apparently there's an 8% chance I have it right now. I am being referred to a gynecologist for more info. But there's no reason we can't continue having sex. When he wants to.


That's right. There is no reason that you cannot continue having sex. Well, as long as it does not hurt. Since it's an 8% chance, it sounds like there are no tumors or other things that might cause pain.


----------



## uhtred

Worrying about the health of someone you love can drive all other thoughts from your mind. The two times my wife had a cancer scare (both times she was fine) sex was the last thing on my mind. I was just terrified of something happening to her, and that drove thoughts other than a desire to comfort her out of my mind.






Hope1964 said:


> So the scheduling thing was fine at first but now it's tapering off. Of the last six scheduled sessions it's happened once. Part of that may have been because I had a bit of a health scare involving my lady parts. I asked him if that has anything to do with it and he said no, but I think that was a gut reaction more than anything else - his default is to deny.
> 
> So does anyone know anything about sex when you're trying to figure out if you have cervical cancer? Apparently there's an 8% chance I have it right now. I am being referred to a gynecologist for more info. But there's no reason we can't continue having sex. When he wants to.


----------



## MJJEAN

Hope1964 said:


> So the scheduling thing was fine at first but now it's tapering off. Of the last six scheduled sessions it's happened once. Part of that may have been because I had a bit of a health scare involving my lady parts. I asked him if that has anything to do with it and he said no, but I think that was a gut reaction more than anything else - his default is to deny.
> 
> So does anyone know anything about sex when you're trying to figure out if you have cervical cancer? Apparently there's an 8% chance I have it right now. I am being referred to a gynecologist for more info. But there's no reason we can't continue having sex. When he wants to.


I wouldn't have sex for about 24-36 hours before your next cell scraping to avoid potential false readings (sex really goofs with the testing), but other than that there is no problem with sex as long as it isn't painful for you. 
@notmyrealname4 I just read the post you made that PieceofSky quoted earlier. You mention your husband says that he doesn't orgasm as hard and that there is less ejaculate when he does orgasm. You also mention a hair trigger sometimes and that he sometimes cannot stay hard. These things can be symptoms of prostate problems, so encourage him to have his checked if it hasn't been done recently.


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## Imissmywife

38%……She has gained a significant amount of weight.

Winner winner chicken dinner.


----------



## BetrayedDad

All this over analysis is hurting my brain.... The problem is either:

1) He's LD (for whatever reason insert here ________ )

2) He's not attracted to you (for whatever reason insert here ________ )

3) Some combination of the above.


----------



## Curse of Millhaven

BetrayedDad said:


> Why do you hate fluffy squirrels so much? Wait, you didn't say that at all?
> 
> Well I didn't say any of the crap you said in your post about blaming women.
> 
> But I guess it's okay to make up sh!t and project it onto other people.
> 
> The misandry kool aid is just as bitter as the red pill. Clearly, you're drunk on it.
> 
> Also men are allowed to post in the ladies lounge so if you don't like it YOU can leave.


I have not imbibed any hate-filled sugary beverage nor swallowed any colored pills. I love (and hate!) men and women equally. And I have nothing for or against you. Heck, I like your avatar and <3 Peanuts and good ol’ Charlie Brown.

But! I feel compelled to tell you that I am one of the women in need of support that Mrs H is referring to. And I read your post as dismissive and felt it didn’t contribute anything meaningful to the discussion.

I’ve debated posting here for a while now. I wrote a reply to this thread weeks ago, put couldn’t make myself submit it. This is a difficult, open wound topic for me and the impetus for my joining TAM several years ago. 

I have been reluctant to share in this thread, precisely because people have a tendency to be dismissive and diminish the very real anguish that women in sexless marriages go through. 

I hope you take this post in the vein it is intended. I mean no offense and have zero interest in arguing, but I thought you should know how one woman suffering greatly in a sexless marriage took your post. You may not have meant to come across as dismissive, but whether we realize it or not, what we post here matters.


Before I tap dance out of this thread, I just wanted to say, notmyrealname4… I loved the incredibly brave, honest, raw and eloquent post you made in this thread. It so deeply resonated with me and I am so very grateful you shared; it helps me to know I’m not alone in feeling alone. So thank you. Very much.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Curse of Millhaven said:


> I hope you take this post in the vein it is intended. I mean no offense and have zero interest in arguing, but I thought you should know how one woman suffering greatly in a sexless marriage took your post. You may not have meant to come across as dismissive, but whether we realize it or not, what we post here matters.


I am humbled by the thoughtfulness in your response. Thank you for your contribution.

This forum is full of empathic posts. I feel posts of a more direct nature may offer others a different perspective. That does not mean I have dismissed someone's feelings or do not empathize with their situation. On the contrary, I would not be here if I didn't believe I was helping people. Regardless of what many here may believe, my opinion is as valid as anyone else's and it's up to the OP to decide what advice best helps her situation and to ignore what doesn't, not other posters. 

At worst, if OP wants to dismiss my post as overly simplistic towards her situation, that's her prerogative but to be attacked by some here for being "mean" shows a profound ignorance in basic reading comprehension. If OP tells me I'm not welcome (as a few have in the past) I am more than okay with politely excusing myself from her thread. I certainly will not however kowtow to TAMers with ulterior agendas.


----------



## EleGirl

BetrayedDad said:


> All this over analysis is hurting my brain.... The problem is either:
> 
> 1) He's LD (for whatever reason insert here ________ )
> 
> 2) He's not attracted to you (for whatever reason insert here ________ )
> 
> 3) Some combination of the above.


As we can see from the above thread jack of people objecting to your post, a lot of people who have the martial problem that this thread is about did not find this post helpful. Some considered it to be at best a put down (or attack?) on women who are in sexless marriages.

There have also been numerous reports on the posts from people feeling that it was inappropriate.

However, while I find it flippant and not helpful, I am going to address it here to spring board into something that I think is helpful to women (and men) in sexless marriages.

You left off the most likely reason that a husband (or wife) does not want sex with their spouse. This is what most studies on the topic say. So I'm going to re-post the list with the reason that was left out.

1) He harbors anger and resentment towards you (for whatever reason insert here ________ )

2) He's LD (for whatever reason insert here ________ )

3) He's not attracted to you (for whatever reason insert here ________ )

4) He's gay (for whatever reason insert here ________ )

5) Some combination of the above.

Most people in a sexless (or near sexless) marriage don't just leave the moment that sexual problems happen in their marriage. Most want to fix the marriage. And many of them are fixable once the issues are discovered and fixed by both parties. The point of this thread is to give women some tools with which to work to figure out what's going on. To figure out if things can be fixed or if they just need to leave because they are married to a guy who is a passive aggressive butt head, or has some other issues that will never be fixed.

The very fact that most of the women in this situation do not know what the problem is, usually means that their husband is not open to talking to them about the sexual issues, or anger/resentment issues. That basically means that he's passive aggressive. 

Since people (women) working on their marital issues and analyzing their problems, hurts your head, I suggest that you stop posting on this thread. That way the women here who want to work on their own marital problems will not make your head explode. Lord knows we do not want your delicate disposition to be hurt. And we surely do not want exploding heads around here.

For the purpose of cleaning up most of the thread jacks, I'm going to delete some of the posts from it. Though there are a few that I think are helpful and will leave those.


----------



## BetrayedDad

EleGirl said:


> Since people (women) working on their marital issues and analyzing their problems, hurts your head, I suggest that you stop posting on this thread. That way the women here who want to work on their own marital problems will not make your head explode. Lord knows we do not want your delicate disposition to be hurt. And we surely do not want exploding heads around here.
> 
> For the purpose of cleaning up most of the thread jacks, I'm going to delete some of the posts from it. Though there are a few that I think are helpful and will leave those.


I composed a very polite response to @Curse of Millhaven and you removed it? This is my last post on this thread. 

There's no reason to continue. Anything I post will either be censored or result in me being banned. Good luck @notmyrealname4.


----------



## notmyrealname4

BetrayedDad said:


> All this over analysis is hurting my brain.... The problem is either:
> 
> 1) He's LD (for whatever reason insert here ________ )
> 
> 2) He's not attracted to you (for whatever reason insert here ________ )
> 
> 3) Some combination of the above.



I've thought about your post for a couple of hours now.

I've decided to answer it; as best as I can.


1) He's LD (for whatever reason insert here He's 55, overweight with lower back issues, he has low testosterone and is tired a lot)

2) He's not attracted to you (for whatever reason insert here I'm older, too familiar and I was never his physical "type" even when I was young)


The answer to question number one is factual.

The answer to question number two is subjective to a point.

I don't find your question offensive; but probably because I've started to become emotionally callous to the whole issue. Not saying that there aren't a few teary eyed moments now and then; but they are becoming much less frequent. Even a year ago, I was wracked with sobs every couple of months.

I don't think that women in sexless marriages fear looking at themselves honestly.

I think it is hard because the honest answers don't necessarily make any difference. I can't control my husband's health, or his age, or his hormone levels, or that a lot of time has passed by, and we've been having sex since 1985, or that I have a long, thin body.

So, when you can't control it; you have to accept it.

And it's not an easy journey. But, like I said upthread; for me, this is now the next stage of life. And it's getting easier to live with it.


----------



## uhtred

From the point of view of the partner, #2, 3, and 4 all have roughly the same effect: he is not attracted for reasons that are unlikely to ever change. To me #1 is the outlier because there is hope. If he is angry / resentful, then it may be possible to figure out why. 

If he is true LD (not situational), or gay, or not attracted to you for some fundamental reason, then that is unlikely to change. 

I see it all boiling down to:

Can you figure out something that can be changed?

If not, then "leave", "cheat", "live like a nun". 

I'm not making light of the seriousness of the situation, just pointing out what many of us have learned over decades of suffering - sometimes there is NOTHING you can do to change things. 







EleGirl said:


> snip
> 
> You left off the most likely reason that a husband (or wife) does not want sex with their spouse. This is what most studies on the topic say. So I'm going to re-post the list with the reason that was left out.
> 
> 1) He harbors anger and resentment towards you (for whatever reason insert here ________ )
> 
> 2) He's LD (for whatever reason insert here ________ )
> 
> 3) He's not attracted to you (for whatever reason insert here ________ )
> 
> 4) He's gay (for whatever reason insert here ________ )
> 
> 5) Some combination of the above.
> snip


----------



## MEM2020

Ele,

I would guess that most men find it a big adjustment to transition to responsive desire even if the rest of the marriage is good.

If your partner has even a moderate amount of resentment - there is a good chance they will be unwilling to work with their responsive desire. 





EleGirl said:


> As we can see from the above thread jack of people objecting to your post, a lot of people who have the martial problem that this thread is about did not find this post helpful. Some considered it to be at best a put down (or attack?) on women who are in sexless marriages.
> 
> There have also been numerous reports on the posts from people feeling that it was inappropriate.
> 
> However, while I find it flippant and not helpful, I am going to address it here to spring board into something that I think is helpful to women (and men) in sexless marriages.
> 
> You left off the most likely reason that a husband (or wife) does not want sex with their spouse. This is what most studies on the topic say. So I'm going to re-post the list with the reason that was left out.
> 
> 1) He harbors anger and resentment towards you (for whatever reason insert here ________ )
> 
> 2) He's LD (for whatever reason insert here ________ )
> 
> 3) He's not attracted to you (for whatever reason insert here ________ )
> 
> 4) He's gay (for whatever reason insert here ________ )
> 
> 5) Some combination of the above.
> 
> Most people in a sexless (or near sexless) marriage don't just leave the moment that sexual problems happen in their marriage. Most want to fix the marriage. And many of them are fixable once the issues are discovered and fixed by both parties. The point of this thread is to give women some tools with which to work to figure out what's going on. To figure out if things can be fixed or if they just need to leave because they are married to a guy who is a passive aggressive butt head, or has some other issues that will never be fixed.
> 
> The very fact that most of the women in this situation do not know what the problem is, usually means that their husband is not open to talking to them about the sexual issues, or anger/resentment issues. That basically means that he's passive aggressive.
> 
> Since people (women) working on their marital issues and analyzing their problems, hurts your head, I suggest that you stop posting on this thread. That way the women here who want to work on their own marital problems will not make your head explode. Lord knows we do not want your delicate disposition to be hurt. And we surely do not want exploding heads around here.
> 
> For the purpose of cleaning up most of the thread jacks, I'm going to delete some of the posts from it. Though there are a few that I think are helpful and will leave those.


----------



## anonmd

This thread is like talking to your spouse. The men want to fix it, the women want to be heard.


----------



## MrsHolland

anonmd said:


> This thread is like talking to your spouse. The men want to fix it, the women want to be heard.


No not really. The men in these marriages often DO NOT want to fix anything, they are more likely to stick their head in the sand, make excuses and do anything other than fix the problems.

The women want to be heard and for the problems to be fixed, lose/lose for them as they are unlikely to get either.


----------



## anonmd

Well, I was referring to the men (many)in the thread rather than the men married to the women in thread


----------



## MrsHolland

anonmd said:


> Well, I was referring to the men (many)in the thread rather than the men married to the women in thread


Ah OK I see. Well sadly the men in the thread (with all due respect) really appear to have little clue on the dynamics of this type of relationship, so Mr Fixit just can't help in this case. Wish it was that easy.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I haven't been following this thread (so please excuse me)...I was pmed & asked to post this write up on this thread....

This was written by a woman.... I had the link saved, then it vanished... I found it again on a random forum after looking for a while...then copied & pasted it... I feel it really speaks to the heart of what one has lost....it's very sobering... She doesn't go into exactly why the sex has stopped (health issues it sounds) ....just how it has deeply affected her life.... if anyone is going through this... my heart goes out to you.. 




> *This is What a Sexless Marriage Feels Like
> *
> 
> This post is not about virtue. It is not an ask for sympathy. It attempts to explore what I've learned about sex and sexuality since sex ended within my long-term relationship. I won't say much about why, because half of it is not my story to tell and I have no right. Just know that because of illness and after sharing a normal, monogamous, sexually active relationship for nearly a decade, my spouse suddenly lost the need, desire, and passion for sex.
> 
> When sex disappears like that, you don't necessarily know it at the time. There's no announcement. No resetting of hormones for each of you. No discussion that starts with, "I'm thinking I'll never want to have sex again. Are you ok with this?" It's just gone. One day, perhaps months or years later, you realize that the last time you had sex together was the last time you’d ever have sex together.
> 
> As I’ve gone through these years without a sexual connection to my spouse, sexual desire did not fade within me. I still think about sex and long for it, I still dream about it, and fantasize. I do try to minimize overt exposure to what can make it harder. I don’t read the OS dirty haikus on Thursday and I never read sensual erotica. I look away during sex scenes in films. I no longer engage in “how’s your sex life” conversations with friends. And yet, even with these rules and a relationship devoid of sex, sex remains a part of my life, in my mind, in my dreams, and in my writing.
> 
> As I’ve gotten through these last eight years, I’ve thought a lot about sex, sexuality, and relationships. Here is some of what I’ve discovered:
> 
> *Sex is vital to a good life. *What? You thought you knew that? So did I. I knew sex reduced my stress level, added to my joie de vivre, helped me sleep more soundly, and that it made the mornings after sweeter. I knew that dependable, good sex was very important, even imperative to a good life and relationship. Going without sex led me to understand its meaning even more: I understand how it nourishes and comforts, touches the soul, sustains our natural rhythms. All of that was happening before, so I never examined the ‘how or why”. Going without sex now, I can see how the lack of it upsets each of those things.
> 
> *Sex may not be a need like air, but it is needed.* Yes, I can live without sex, I pretty much do, but I don’t live joyfully. It’s gotten harder, not easier to go without for so long. I need sex to live the life I wanted to live, to feel happiness to the potential I have within me, to carry me through life’s challenges and sorrows. I need sex like I need friends and conversation, like I need the sun and spring, like I need books and music. I need sex to make all of those things better, too. Some nights, sex is all I can think about. I ache to be desired and wanted, to give way to joy and abandon. There is no substitute for the moment when your lover reaches out for you with passion, or with love. Trust me on this, there is no substitute.
> 
> *Sex holds you together when everything else is pulling you apart. *Another given, but think about it for a gentle moment. How many times has that tender caress, that kiss that lingers just a bit longer, that flirtatious glance made you feel closer, safer, connected, a couple, united? How often has it been the bridge from anger to forgiveness, from stressed to relaxed, from lonely to loved? It works. Sex does the job it is supposed to do, fusing you as a couple. Sharing sex means exposing vulnerability, intimacies of the heart and body. You know secrets about each other that are beyond naked and truer than fact, learned during uncensored moments of bliss. Honoring and protecting those secrets is a gift to each other.
> 
> *Sex makes me feel like a woman and nothing else really does.* My career doesn't do that for me. Spending time with friends doesn't. Volunteering doesn’t. Wearing skirts and lingerie helps, but still.... sex? Oh yes. That's when I feel womanly and confident, aching to express my desire and eroticism, and ready to reveal the mysteries of my gender. Nothing else asks me to reach in and grasp the inner femaleness that flows so deep, that yearns to surface. Going without sex now, I sometimes feels less of who I am, less connected to my friends and other women, a little less relevant in the world. I feel distant from myself.
> 
> *Our sexuality continues to evolve over time, even after many years*. About five years into this, I realized something very new about my sexual desire, something I had not considered before. How could this be? I wasn’t in an active sexual relationship, I was making every attempt to de-sexualize myself, and suddenly a new sexual idea came to me begging to be explored and experienced. How unfair and cruel! This revelation thrilled, stunned and scared me. How and why this came to me during the sex-free years of my existence remain obscure to me, and yet there it is. Just another reminder that sexuality, that basic human drive, has a life of its own.
> 
> *Sex allows you to communicate in ways that you cannot replicate in any other way. *What you can do with your fingers, your mouth, your hips.... all those luscious areas of the body that allow for expression that can't be articulated any other way. During sex you can whisper and tease and demand and beg with intonation and nuances that are not appropriate in any other setting. I miss this language so dearly and with such a vengeance that I have to continually monitor myself to be sure I don't do it in the wrong setting. I have to say, honestly, this is probably what I miss the most – the language of sex.
> 
> Masturbation is nice. And I am a pro. I swear to all of you, none of you are better at this than I am. I always knew masturbation was nice, but before it was just a warm-up or a way to tide myself over between couple-sex events. Now it is sex.
> 
> *Masturbation gets to be very, very lonely. *Not lonely enough to totally stop, but lonely enough that sometimes an orgasm from solo sex ends in tears and a feeling of profound solitude.
> 
> *Sex gives us some hope. *Sex makes us hope, for more, for better, for different, for the same. During the good years, we had sex pretty regularly, as couples do. Thursday night? Always. Again on a weekend night and a weekend morning, even both weekend mornings. And then there was Tuesday, the bonus day. Tuesdays felt a little hopeful, a little romantic, a little sexy. I miss that feeling, wondering if it will be a ‘sex Tuesday’. I miss counting on sex on Thursday, and looking forward to weekend sex. Going without sex all the time adds a layer of drudgery to the week. Now it's just work, time after work, and then sleep. Same thing tomorrow. Same thing next week, next month, and next year. Sex adds that soft glitter to the winter’s gray, a soothing balm to the end of a long work day, a benevolent barrier to the world outside.
> 
> *The less I had sex, the more I thought about it*. During the first few years of this, I thought about sex all the time. There wasn't a conference room table on which I didn't imagine a lewd image during a business meeting. I couldn't enter an elevator without seeing myself pressed against the wall by a lover and kissed passionately. When I traveled, hotel rooms kept me awake at night as I thought about all the options therein. I have consciously worked to mitigate those thoughts and that’s helped, but even that ‘success’ feels like a loss.
> 
> *Sex makes me love my body. *Watching, feeling, hearing a lover take pleasure in my body and receive it from my touch, these feelings are inimitable. A lover’s certain touch affirms me emotionally and physically. Knowing that my body and my own touch produce exquisite gratification and joy tell me I am a sexy, sensual woman. I appreciate my body and am glad for it, but I ache to express and enjoy its sexual potential.
> 
> *Our sexuality is a gift of comfort and passion that we offer the world, an offer to sustain a love, to convey our essence from our soul.
> *
> There is more to say, but even a non-sexual relationship deserves some privacy. Thank you for respecting that. Please remember these are just my lessons. They may be meaningless to others who face this, and to those of you who are sexually active. I honestly can't predict what will resonate for anyone. I beg you not to tell me I am wrong, but to trust that this is what I think and feel.


----------



## Livvie

I'm the one who asked that SimplyAmorous share this here. I had seen it when she posted it on another thread awhile back, and thought it would belong here. I was in a sexless marriage for a long time. What this woman wrote seemed to capture a lot of the feelings I had while going through it (I have since divorced, for other reasons, too).


----------



## EleGirl

MEM2020 said:


> Ele,
> 
> I would guess that most men find it a big adjustment to transition to responsive desire even if the rest of the marriage is good.
> 
> If your partner has even a moderate amount of resentment - there is a good chance they will be unwilling to work with their responsive desire.


I'm confused, so could you clarify?

Do you mean that the man is having problems adjusting to his wife's responsive desire?

Or do you mean that the man himself is transitioning to responsive desire, meaning that he now has responsive desire?


----------



## EleGirl

anonmd said:


> This thread is like talking to your spouse. The men want to fix it, the women want to be heard.


I disagree. This thread is giving women tools so that they can try to fix the sex problems in their marriage.

And yes some women are sharing their stories. The reason for that on this thread is to give support to other women going through this because most women in sexless marriages think that they are alone in this. Unlike men, women do not often sit around complaining about the lack of sex to other women in real life... why? Because women are taught that it's their fault. After all we can get sex any time we want because men are just so horny that they will screw anything at the drop of a hat. So clearly any woman who is rejected by her husband must be some horrible, disgusting wench that no man wants. We have to get past that stereo type to be able to address the problem. So reading about other women having the same problem helps.

The men are not trying to fix anything here, not that I see. Sure some have some good input. But I don't see any fixing going on.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of threads on TAM by men who are in sexless or near sexless marriages. They go on for pages and pages with the men talking and just wanting to be heard. And other men interjecting their own points of view.


----------



## MEM2020

If the man himself is transitioning to responsive desire.

It's just an unfamiliar situation. Thing is - if you relax and let nature take its course - usually it does. 




EleGirl said:


> I'm confused, so could you clarify?
> 
> Do you mean that the man is having problems adjusting to his wife's responsive desire?
> 
> Or do you mean that the man himself is transitioning to responsive desire, meaning that he now has responsive desire?


----------



## Cletus

Well then, let my try to "fix" things.

From my experience base of exactly 1 marriage, if you want your husband to keep wanting to have sex with you, show some ambition.

Be good at sex yourself. Initiate more than once in a while. Follow Dan Savage's GGG recommendation - be good, game, and giving. Good at what you do, game to try most things that aren't degrading or painful, and make your partner's enjoyment as important as your own. 

Otherwise, you may find that your partner has lost interest in sex with you not because he's LD or gay or harboring resentment, but because, to put not too fine a point on it, you suck in bed.


----------



## Curse of Millhaven

.


----------



## Red Sonja

Cletus said:


> Be good at sex yourself. Initiate more than once in a while. Follow Dan Savage's GGG recommendation - be good, game, and giving. Good at what you do, game to try most things that aren't degrading or painful, and make your partner's enjoyment as important as your own.
> 
> Otherwise, you may find that your partner has lost interest in sex with you not because he's LD or gay or harboring resentment, but because, to put not too fine a point on it, you suck in bed.


Yeah that was it, I suck in bed and didn't initiate enough. :slap:

/sarcasm


----------



## MrsHolland

Cletus said:


> Well then, let my try to "fix" things.
> 
> From my experience base of exactly 1 marriage, if you want your husband to keep wanting to have sex with you, show some ambition.
> 
> Be good at sex yourself. Initiate more than once in a while. Follow Dan Savage's GGG recommendation - be good, game, and giving. Good at what you do, game to try most things that aren't degrading or painful, and make your partner's enjoyment as important as your own.
> 
> Otherwise, you may find that your partner has lost interest in sex with you not because he's LD or gay or harboring resentment, but because, to put not too fine a point on it, you suck in bed.


You really have no clue on this matter.


----------



## EleGirl

MEM2020 said:


> If the man himself is transitioning to responsive desire.
> 
> It's just an unfamiliar situation. Thing is - if you relax and let nature take its course - usually it does.


Most of the time, when a man is the one making the marriage sexless, or near sexless, it's not because he has developed responsive desire. Most of the time they do not want sex with their wife because they are harboring anger and resentment. They want sex but not with their wife. A fairly large percent are cheating.


----------



## EleGirl

Cletus said:


> Well then, let my try to "fix" things.
> 
> From my experience base of exactly 1 marriage, if you want your husband to keep wanting to have sex with you, show some ambition.
> 
> Be good at sex yourself. Initiate more than once in a while. Follow Dan Savage's GGG recommendation - be good, game, and giving. Good at what you do, game to try most things that aren't degrading or painful, and make your partner's enjoyment as important as your own.
> 
> Otherwise, you may find that your partner has lost interest in sex with you not because he's LD or gay or harboring resentment, but because, to put not too fine a point on it, you suck in bed.


Why do you assume that the women here whose husbands do not want sex with them are not good in bed, do not initiate often, etc? Why?

I have always been high drive, always initiated as much or more than he. Have always been up to doing whatever he wanted. And I also would bring new things our sex as well. 

From what most of the women who have posted here on TAM about this topic, I'm pretty typical of what they report.

Posts like yours are the exact type of stereo type that this thread was made to help women work through because this is exactly what is assumed about women whose husbands don't want sex with them... that she is the problem... she's not sexually desirable because of things like you brought up.


----------



## EleGirl

Curse of Millhaven said:


> Oh my.  It wasn’t my intention to “thread jack” or suggest that what BetrayedDad posted was offensive. I wasn’t offended; I simply wanted to share how one woman in a sexless marriage (me) had read his post in the hopes that he might see how it could be taken in a way he may not have intended and that might affect others, especially those in pain, like myself. That’s all.
> 
> I got an email when I was getting ready for work that you had replied to the thread, BetrayedDad, and it was one sentence in which you said you were humbled and thanked me for my contribution. Believe it or not, I thought that was a lovely thing to say and I was glad to read it. I just wanted you to know that. I don’t know what came after and discussing this may be an infraction of the rules, and if so, I apologize.
> 
> I’ve never clicked the report button and I never intend to (I don’t fault those who do), but in my maybe naïve opinion, we all have something to learn from one another. I welcome the opportunity to grow.
> 
> We discuss very intimate, sometimes very painful things here in the open, with hundreds, possibly thousands, of strangers from around the planet (and maybe beyond, one never knows!)... I think that is incredibly beautiful, precious, and rare. I'm grateful I found this site all those years ago when I was searching for information on women in sexless marriages.
> 
> I don't have many I share with in my real life and the few that I do confide in cannot understand my marriage. One of my closest (ex-) friends actually dismissed my issue by saying she wished she had my "problem" and her husband would leave her alone. My other close friends complain about their partners being too amorous too often and I'm once again left feeling like a beggar at the banquet of life, starving and staring in from the outside at the festivities and abundance within, knowing I will never be invited inside.
> 
> I'm not yet at the "emotionally calloused" point that notmyrealname4 has reached and I still long for love and intimacy. My desire just won't die. This is mortifying to admit, but I often cry after I TCB. It's demoralizing, intensely embarrassing, and I hate myself a little bit more every time and retreat further and further into myself. Which is a far cry from the passionate, sexual woman I used to be.
> 
> That side of me is all but dead; I don’t recognize that incarnation of myself anymore. She’s a stranger to me now. I’ve buried her deep within and I don’t think I’ll ever be able to resurrect her again. Years of self-hatred, rejection, and loving a man who can’t love me back have taken their toll.
> 
> Now I'm just a broken, shell of a woman who will never rise from the ashes again. I’ve done it too many times before; I don’t have any magic left in me to invoke the spark needed to bring myself back to life yet again.
> 
> I don't know where I was going with all this. I’m so damned tired.
> 
> Anyway, I just wanted to share that I never intended for anyone to feel censured. I appreciate everyone's contributions here and I think this is an important, needed topic.
> 
> Ele, if this is an inappropriate post, please feel free to delete it. Thank you for making this thread.


Your above post and your previous one are exactly what this thread is for. They are not part of the thread jack.

The thread jack was the arguing between some posters in response to Betrayeddad's post. I did resurrect his very thoughtful reply to you because it really was not part of the thread jack.

I feel your pain here. I've lived it. You are right that having a husband who refuses sex is very painful and destroys a very important part of us. I too do not know how to fix that.

Your above post is very eloquently said and so very sad.


----------



## MEM2020

Ele,
How do you know that male lack of desire is largely caused by anger and resentment?

Maybe that was the case in your marriage - but - where is the generalization you make below coming from?

I do believe the person who is refusing sex (regardless of gender) is very often lying about the reasons.

And there is no safer lie than: I'm angry and resentful. Because framing the issue that way gives the person being refused hope. 

Totally different than saying: I am just not that attracted to you. 

Anger/resentment = fixable problem
Lack of attraction = non fixable problem





EleGirl said:


> Most of the time, when a man is the one making the marriage sexless, or near sexless, it's not because he has developed responsive desire. Most of the time they do not want sex with their wife because they are harboring anger and resentment. They want sex but not with their wife. A fairly large percent are cheating.


----------



## EllisRedding

So here is a thought on responsive desire (risking a lot posting here since according to a few posters the men here have no clue what they are talking about :nono: ).

In my marriage I am the higher drive person, and my W is more in line with responsive desire. I don't believe she has ever been in the situation where she would say she was the sex starved wife. However, in the past month or two my drive has dropped significantly for a variety of reasons (none having to do with anger or resentment keep in mind). So now we are in a situation where my drive has been down which means I am much less likely to initiate which means there will be minimal sex since my W is more on the responsive desire side of things (an active sex life would fall more on me initiating most of the time). In a case like this, it could lead to my W feeling sex starved if she is waiting on me to initiate. 

Now, maybe I am not the norm, but once again, my lack of drive or desire has nothing to do with anger or resentment towards my W. If anything, I have been more responsive desire, so you can see the problem when you have two people who are both responsive desire.


----------



## Holdingontoit

There are lots of reasons why a man might not want to be sexual with his wife. These include he is not attracted to her, he is angry and frustrated with her, he feels sex is dirty and bad with anyone, he feels sex is dirty and bad with his wife or the mother of his children (Madonna - wh0re syndrome), he is homosexual, he has medical issues, he has ED, he is over-stressed and he is exhausted. Lots of potential reasons. Wife who wants sex needs to explore which reason is at work in her marriage, because the "cures" are very different depending on the reason behind his refusal to have sex.

Look, if this stuff were easy and every couple faced the same issue we wouldn't need so many threads and posts on TAM. It is precisely because there are so many possibilities that diagnosing and treating the issue is so difficult. Yes, there are patterns. Most cases are not entirely unique. But they are not entirely the same, either.

I feel for women in sexless marriages. Even when it is mostly of their own making from prior refusals. I know how much this hurts. I don't wish this on anyone.


----------



## 1RedKing

Holdingontoit said:


> There are lots of reasons why a man might not want to be sexual with his wife. These include he is not attracted to her, he is angry and frustrated with her, he feels sex is dirty and bad with anyone, he feels sex is dirty and bad with his wife or the mother of his children (Madonna - wh0re syndrome), he is homosexual, he has medical issues, he has ED, he is over-stressed and he is exhausted. Lots of potential reasons. Wife who wants sex needs to explore which reason is at work in her marriage, because the "cures" are very different depending on the reason behind his refusal to have sex.
> 
> Look, if this stuff were easy and every couple faced the same issue we wouldn't need so many threads and posts on TAM. It is precisely because there are so many possibilities that diagnosing and treating the issue is so difficult. Yes, there are patterns. Most cases are not entirely unique. But they are not entirely the same, either.
> 
> I feel for women in sexless marriages. Even when it is mostly of their own making from prior refusals. I know how much this hurts. I don't wish this on anyone.


 Seriously ??? That last paragraph? Are you for real? There may be a small number of partners suffering ongoing counter rejection by lovers hurt my extensive neglect and indifference. Your statement puts all neglected partners in the same boat and designates them as deserving of being their by their own mistreatment of their partner. I agree they may exist but I haven't run across more than a few despite reading hundreds (thousands ?) of these stories and conversing with dozens of people in these god forsaken marriages.

Sent from my HTC_0PJA10 using Tapatalk


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## EllisRedding

1RedKing said:


> Seriously ??? That last paragraph? Are you for real? There may be a small number of partners suffering ongoing counter rejection by lovers hurt my extensive neglect and indifference. Your statement puts all neglected partners in the same boat and designates them as deserving of being their by their own mistreatment of their partner. I agree they may exist but I haven't run across more than a few despite reading hundreds (thousands ?) of these stories and conversing with dozens of people in these god forsaken marriages.
> 
> Sent from my HTC_0PJA10 using Tapatalk


I didn't take Holdings statement as implying that most female sexless marriages are due to the female rejecting, more that if constant rejection was an issue, it is still difficult having to deal with a sexless marriage. I could be wrong though in how I interpreted it.


----------



## uhtred

Do you think a female HD / Male LD relationship is different from a Male HD / Female LD relationship?

Many of the men here are from the latter and are assuming that experience is a useful guide to what to do when the genders are reversed. 

From a distance the two types of relationship look the same to me. It seems that I could reverse the genders and not know the difference. Maybe there are differences? How would anyone know, since no one can experience both types of relationship from the same point of view. 

At least for the male HD / female LD relationships, many men have found that the best solution is to essentially give up, or at least to give up on trying / hoping that your partner will change. Many will tell you to leave, or to accept things as they are, but not to try to change them, because that can lead to a lifetime of frustration .




MrsHolland said:


> Ah OK I see. Well sadly the men in the thread (with all due respect) really appear to have little clue on the dynamics of this type of relationship, so Mr Fixit just can't help in this case. Wish it was that easy.


----------



## Cletus

MrsHolland said:


> You really have no clue on this matter.


Oh really? I don't have a clue about the reasons that I have lost sexual interest in my own wife? That I'm the one who is primarily causing our sex life to decline dramatically in recent years? 

Perhaps you could illuminate for me the things I just don't understand about my problems for which you have better information?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## Cletus

Red Sonja said:


> Yeah that was it, I suck in bed and didn't initiate enough. :slap:
> 
> /sarcasm


If you're not in this position, them this advice will not apply to you, will it? I didn't say it was universal. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## sixty-eight

..


----------



## Cletus

EleGirl said:


> Why do you assume that the women here whose husbands do not want sex with them are not good in bed, do not initiate often, etc? Why?


Because it is my reality. Since I'm no special snowflake, I can assume that it is the reality of at least some other husbands and wives. If it does not apply to you and yours, then ignore it, even if the actual advice I posted is inarguably good advice for both partners in any marriage.




> Posts like yours are the exact type of stereo type that this thread was made to help women work through


Steteotype my ass. This is my goddamned reality, and you would do well to take a measure of your own medicine and neither ignore not minimize it because you find it inconvenient.



> because this is exactly what is assumed about women whose husbands don't want sex with them... that she is the problem... she's not sexually desirable because of things like you brought up.


Well, I married that woman, so in my world, she's no stereotype. Shall we attempt to deligitimze my experiences further or shall we admit that sometimed this is the precise problem? A problem which no doubt happens to plenty of women too, I'll add.

You wanted a thread on sex starved marriages where the man had lost interest. Now do you want the input from the man in such a marriage, or would you rather grind an ax?



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


----------



## MrsHolland

uhtred said:


> Do you think a female HD / Male LD relationship is different from a Male HD / Female LD relationship?
> 
> Many of the men here are from the latter and are assuming that experience is a useful guide to what to do when the genders are reversed.
> 
> From a distance the two types of relationship look the same to me. It seems that I could reverse the genders and not know the difference. Maybe there are differences? How would anyone know, since no one can experience both types of relationship from the same point of view.
> 
> At least for the male HD / female LD relationships, many men have found that the best solution is to essentially give up, or at least to give up on trying / hoping that your partner will change. Many will tell you to leave, or to accept things as they are, but not to try to change them, because that can lead to a lifetime of frustration .


Yes they are very different which is why a man coming in here and trying to "fix" something that is so vastly different to his own life is not helpful and is actually hurtful to many women. 

The solutions (as in divorce) may be similar but the experience is vastly different.


----------



## sixty-eight

Red Sonja said:


> The sex in my marriage stopped suddenly (no taper off) in the third year. It took me 6 months (of no nookie) to get up the courage to ask him about it. I got no answer; he literally did not speak during that conversation so I backed off. And so began the twisting agony. He would ignore my attempts at initiating/seduction; sometimes he was more blatant about it as in actually removing my hands from his body or otherwise pushing me off of him. He would do similar things with ordinary affection … dodge kisses, move my hands, passive hugs, etc. Note: he would also regularly turn down blow jobs. I initiated a few additional discussions over the years in an effort to find out “why” or what I could do differently. I would get no reply at all or, some version of “What? We just had sex!” (denial). Our frequency varied from 2 month to 18 month intervals.
> 
> When he finally consented to MC after 20+ years of this crap he had the nerve to tell the therapist, in our first session, that our sexless-ness was his major problem with the marriage. In other words he judo-flipped me. He was extremely passive-aggressive about everything and, this is what these types do to their partners. I have no idea what happened in that third year of marriage to start this. There were no adverse events … no health problems, no financial problems, no career problems, no children born, no deaths, nothing, nada, zip. And, yes I know I was stupid for staying so long, especially for the 8 years of trying to figure out what the problem was and how to fix it. However, after that I was stuck because of commitments made to my DD that are mentioned in my other posts.
> 
> For reference, I never refused him when he initiated, why would I when I was starving for it? I was and still am 5’9.5” tall, 150lbs and a US size 8; I still fit in my wedding dress when I burned the mutherfvcker 3 years ago. His T levels were always in the 700-800 range, he was (and still is) in extraordinary physical shape (6’3”/190lbs) and there were never any incidents of ED.
> 
> So now you know why the “did you refuse him?”, “did you gain weight?”, “where are the studies?”, “this can’t be true!” crap pi$$es me off so much.
> 
> P.S. I am making up for lost time now.





Faithful Wife said:


> @Red Sonja
> 
> Thank you for that post.
> 
> Do you think your ex had a PD? My friend whose H seems to have one, he acts like you just described about your ex.





Red Sonja said:


> I know he had a PD, he was a narcissist. Two psychologists (one was the MC) told me he was high enough on the spectrum for it to be classified as clinical. I wish I had known that years ago, but once I was told and NPD was explained to me then I knew there was no hope for improvement.
> 
> He flipped out when I left him. :scratchhead:





tropicalbeachiwish said:


> So you never really got an explanation on why he stopped having sex with you? Was he having an affair? (Sorry, I don't know your story)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


To a narcissist, sex is a tool. They use that tool by being hypersexual or hyposexual. Whichever will be the most effective.
To a cerebral narcissist, withholding from a partner is an excellent way to control.
It's extremely likely that Red Sonja's ex enjoyed controlling her by denying her sex, but flipped out when she left. She was supposed to stay and let him control her that way forever (in his mind). I have enclosed some links explaining this behavior further.

Denying sex to control is (I think) a very small subset of reasons to be in a sex starved marriage. There are a few of us here, in my opinion, but we are in the minority.
I have enclosed links if you think you might be experiencing this, but i don't want to take the whole thread in this direction. Just to offer another valid explanation.

Narcissists, Sex and Fidelity - The Somatic Narcissist, The Asexual Cerebral Narcissist, Extramarital Affairs, and Paraphilias
Sexual Attitudes of a Narcissist: Sex and the Narcissist - The Narcissistic Life

If i have read this wrong, please forgive me, Red Sonja. I left my SSM and my covert cerebral narcissist ex last year. I try not to let it color my interpretations of the stories of others, but I think most of us do that.

Also, to the "did you gain weight" question. I hated this, although i know it's valid for most and must be asked.

I did gain weight, went from a size 10 to a 12. Although, it wasn't before the sex stopped. It was after. After being denied for so long, i admittedly ate my feelings for a while and gained some weight. It only served to give him more control as it became his post facto reason for why the sex had stopped. And then when i lost the weight, then he came up with a new reason. That shifting maze kept me struggling and trying for a regrettable amount of time.


----------



## MrsHolland

Cletus said:


> Oh really? I don't have a clue about the reasons that I have lost sexual interest in my own wife? That I'm the one who is primarily causing our sex life to decline dramatically in recent years?
> 
> Perhaps you could illuminate for me the things I just don't understand about my problems for which you have better information?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Well if you actually wanted to be helpful you would have framed your post from it being a personal experience POV. Instead you came in all guns blazing saying you would "fix" this for the women here. That they need to be better in bed :scratchhead: How about reading what they are saying, they are adventurous, they want sex, they are enthusiastic (isn't that the number one thing men say about what makes sex good), they like lingerie, trying new things etc. 

Yet your advice is to get better in bed and then their husbands will want sex with them. 

Your experience of one marriage is your experience which is a sad one and very valid. Your post is insulting though and assumes all women are the same and like your wife.


----------



## uhtred

I'm familiar with your situation and it was a terrible combination of abuse and control. 

I agree with your statement that it is a small percentage of sex-starved marriages, but that doesn't make it any less serious a problem for the people who are in that situation. 

Discussions like this are tricky because there are so many causes, so a particular poster's experience may not represent the majority of situations, but it is still a huge problem for that particular poster. 




sixty-eight said:


> To a narcissist, sex is a tool. They use that tool by being hypersexual or hyposexual. Whichever will be the most effective.
> To a cerebral narcissist, withholding from a partner is an excellent way to control.
> It's extremely likely that Red Sonja's ex enjoyed controlling her by denying her sex, but flipped out when she left. She was supposed to stay and let him control her that way forever (in his mind). I have enclosed some links explaining this behavior further.
> 
> Denying sex to control is (I think) a very small subset of reasons to be in a sex starved marriage. There are a few of us here, in my opinion, but we are in the minority.
> I have enclosed links if you think you might be experiencing this, but i don't want to take the whole thread in this direction. Just to offer another valid explanation.
> 
> Narcissists, Sex and Fidelity - The Somatic Narcissist, The Asexual Cerebral Narcissist, Extramarital Affairs, and Paraphilias
> Sexual Attitudes of a Narcissist: Sex and the Narcissist - The Narcissistic Life
> 
> If i have read this wrong, please forgive me, Red Sonja. I left my SSM and my covert cerebral narcissist ex last year. I try not to let it color my interpretations of the stories of others, but I think most of us do that.
> 
> Also, to the "did you gain weight" question. I hated this, although i know it's valid for most and must be asked.
> 
> I did gain weight, went from a size 10 to a 12. Although, it wasn't before the sex stopped. It was after. After being denied for so long, i admittedly ate my feelings for a while and gained some weight. It only served to give him more control as it became his post facto reason for why the sex had stopped. And then when i lost the weight, then he came up with a new reason. That shifting maze kept me struggling and trying for a regrettable amount of time.


----------



## uhtred

I've started a thread to discuss this specific question (are the situations the same?). I would be interested in discussing in detail there because I think we have different opinions on this, but I don't want to thread-jack this discussion too much. 




MrsHolland said:


> Yes they are very different which is why a man coming in here and trying to "fix" something that is so vastly different to his own life is not helpful and is actually hurtful to many women.
> 
> The solutions (as in divorce) may be similar but the experience is vastly different.


----------



## Cletus

MrsHolland said:


> Your experience of one marriage is your experience which is a sad one and very valid. Your post is insulting though and assumes all women are the same and like your wife.


"From my experience base of exactly 1 marriage,"

Is a quote directly from my post. Go back and read my posting history, and you will find NO ONE more careful in stressing that my experiences and advice are from my single marriage and ARE NOT universal truths. Go ahead. I dare you. I NEVER assume that anything is true for an entire group, and never have.

Since projection seems to be the clarion call of the day on that post, let me be clear: if you are not an engaged sexual partner, you may find your mate loses interest in you, and it may well be your fault. It is not gender specific, but it is very real. You should consider it as part of your search for causes and solutions to your sex starved marriage. Dear god, there's an entire book on the topic by that title that more or less says everything I mentioned.

If your house is in order, then look for other causes and solutions. I in no way claim to speak to all or even most marriages. But I damn well speak for at least one, and assuredly many more.

Is that clear enough for the hair-trigger crowd?




Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


----------



## MrsHolland

Cletus said:


> "From my experience base of exactly 1 marriage,"
> 
> Is a quote directly from my post. Go back and read my posting history, and you will find NO ONE more careful in stressing that my experiences and advice are from my single marriage and ARE NOT universal truths. Go ahead. I dare you. I NEVER assume that anything is true for an entire group, and never have.
> 
> Since projection seems to be the clarion call of the day on that post, let me be clear: if you are not an engaged sexual partner, you may find your mate loses interest in you, and it may well be your fault. It is not gender specific, but it is very real. You should consider it as part of your search for causes and solutions to your sex starved marriage. Dear god, there's an entire book on the topic by that title that more or less says everything I mentioned.
> 
> If your house is in order, then look for other causes and solutions. I in no way claim to speak to all or even most marriages. But I damn well speak for at least one, and assuredly many more.
> 
> Is that clear enough for the hair-trigger crowd?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


OK so you clearly have a lot of anger and that is not a good thing for this thread. It is a bit self centered to think that everyone reading knows your post history and story. I have no clue about your story, anyway you are not going to see that what you posted was insulting so there is no point. Your experience of one marriage does not give you the authority to come in and tell women you know how to fix their situations when clearly (if you read the posts) you would see that you are way off in your insinuation that they simply aren't good in bed.


----------



## MrsHolland

uhtred said:


> I've started a thread to discuss this specific question (are the situations the same?). I would be interested in discussing in detail there because I think we have different opinions on this, but I don't want to thread-jack this discussion too much.


I won't participate in the other thread, TAM is not the place to have a supportive discussion about this topic. All I will say is that the differences are vast and that this is recognised by ICs that deal with this topic. Sure there are similarities and absolutely divorce is a valid end result for both genders. The overall experience is different though in part due to the very different expectations/ societal stereotypes and lack of support for women in this situation.


----------



## Blondilocks

Cletus' point is posted on page 1 of this thread. Ele cited a list of reasons why men stop wanting sex with their wives and the lack of adventurous sex was the first reason listed.

This thread is about the 'sex starved wife' and is intended to be a support thread for the women. Anger and arguments are not going to help the women in this situation. 

Twenty-three years into my marriage, my husband developed ED. He didn't want to talk about it or do anything about it. It was a tremendous blow to his ego (didn't do anything for mine either). Twenty-three years later, I figure I'm just about a re-born virgin.


----------



## MrsHolland

Blondilocks said:


> Cletus' point is posted on page 1 of this thread. Ele cited a list of reasons why men stop wanting sex with their wives and the lack of adventurous sex was the first reason listed.
> 
> *Yes this may well be a reason in some cases but would be the easiest to fix. Communication, love and actually caring enough about your partner to face/discuss the hard truths would go a long way. If it can't be fixed then the two are simply incompatible and divorce would be a good option.*
> 
> This thread is about the 'sex starved wife' and is intended to be a support thread for the women. Anger and arguments are not going to help the women in this situation.
> 
> Twenty-three years into my marriage, my husband developed ED. He didn't want to talk about it or do anything about it. It was a tremendous blow to his ego (didn't do anything for mine either). Twenty-three years later, I figure I'm just about a re-born virgin.


Are you saying you have been married for 46 years with the last 23 being sexless? Are you happy anyway? 

Even being a HD woman I would have lived in a sexless marriage if he had of shown some effort to address his issues. It was the lack of this that caused me to end the marriage, not the lack of sex.

In the end I don't think it is healthy to stay in a sexless marriage no matter what the cause is. The bonus though after living like this for some years is that it was so amazing when I got back out into the living world and rediscovered how fantastic good sex is. I covert what I have now.


----------



## EleGirl

MEM2020 said:


> Ele,
> How do you know that male lack of desire is largely caused by anger and resentment?
> 
> Maybe that was the case in your marriage - but - where is the generalization you make below coming from?


I have read quite a few studies and books that address this topic. Every one of them says this same thing. Not all, but most, 70% - 80% are due to harboring anger and resentment. By the way, they say it about women who chose to turn their marriage sexless as well—resentment and anger are the number one cause of sexless, or near sexless, marriages.

Did you look at the list of reasons given my men in the OP of this thread? That’s from responses by over 4,000 men chose to be sexless in their marriage.


MEM2020 said:


> I do believe the person who is refusing sex (regardless of gender) is very often lying about the reasons.


To their spouse yes, they are usually lying. Or they have not put a lot of time and effort into figuring out what is going on with themselves.


MEM2020 said:


> And there is no safer lie than: I'm angry and resentful. Because framing the issue that way gives the person being refused hope.


In the studies done on this, the participants are asked many questions to get to the bottom of the actual reason. They often ask the same questions many ways to figure out what is going on. One thing that points to the fact that it’s not low libido is that most of the men report that they are either cheating, looking to cheat, or are using a lot of porn.


MEM2020 said:


> Totally different than saying: I am just not that attracted to you.
> Anger/resentment = fixable problem
> Lack of attraction = non fixable problem


From what I have read, anger/resentment can lead to lack of attraction. I’ve also experienced that in my own life. It’s a huge killer of attraction. I have lost attraction to men I dated who I was very attracted to because I became angry/resentful of the way they treated me. My solution was to dump them.

With a relationship struggling with anger/resentment, fix the problems. If attraction was once there it will most likely come back.

Isn’t the idea behind MMSLP? According to those who have benefited from that book, they say that they ignore the anti-woman tripe in it and follow the basic idea that if a man becomes the best that he can be--gets physically fit, starts being a better husband--his wife will swoon over him again. 

It’s also the same message (without the anti-woman tripe) that is taught by Marriage Builders in the “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters” books.

Both become better people all around, both make each other the priority, talk through and fix their issues; and spend a lot of quality time together and the passion/love and attraction will return in the marriage. It works very well when both people do the work.


----------



## peacem

> 68%……She isn’t sexually adventurous enough for me. (This lack of newness, energy, and emotion translates for many men into a
> ...........lack of adventure and sexual enjoyment on the part of their partners, transferring the problem and ignoring the fact that
> ...........they’re not bringing any originality to bed, either.)
> 
> 61%……She doesn’t seem to enjoy sex.


I get this and believe it is likely to be true. However, I think to be the perfect sexual wife we are expected to be totally up for it, adventurous and sexual confident, but only when the husband wants us to be and in a way he wants us to be. We accommodate their needs, we want to satisfy their needs, we will jump through flaming hoops to be what they want us to be...as long as we don't cross the boundary by also expressing our own needs and how often we need sexual contact, and what little kinks we may enjoy. This apparently can be a huge turn-off for men (according to some threads I have read on TAM). We then cross the line from sexual confidence to sexual harassment/nagging. 

I think if men were more open to the idea that women can have several orgasms in succession, have a break and then go again. That it is a wonderful thing to do to your partner regardless of whether there is an erection and ejaculation or not...women would be more verbally open with their partners about their sexuality, their fantasies, kinks, frequency of need. A lot of women suppress their sexual needs to a point of they convince themselves that they don't need it - they condition themselves to switch their sexual urges off (in a fear of being unladylike). When you start to recognise those feelings and always act upon them, and welcome them, you realise that you are actually HD (and I believe that most of us are HD but think we are LD because of years of suppression). I think if some men stopped equating pleasing their sexual partner with solely an erect penis - then there are some amazing things to be discovered. But it takes confidence on the female side and vulnerability on the male side.


----------



## EleGirl

Holdingontoit said:


> There are lots of reasons why a man might not want to be sexual with his wife. These include he is not attracted to her, he is angry and frustrated with her, he feels sex is dirty and bad with anyone, he feels sex is dirty and bad with his wife or the mother of his children (Madonna - wh0re syndrome), he is homosexual, he has medical issues, he has ED, he is over-stressed and he is exhausted. Lots of potential reasons. Wife who wants sex needs to explore which reason is at work in her marriage, because the "cures" are very different depending on the reason behind his refusal to have sex.
> 
> Look, if this stuff were easy and every couple faced the same issue we wouldn't need so many threads and posts on TAM. It is precisely because there are so many possibilities that diagnosing and treating the issue is so difficult. Yes, there are patterns. Most cases are not entirely unique. But they are not entirely the same, either.
> 
> I feel for women in sexless marriages. Even when it is mostly of their own making from prior refusals. I know how much this hurts. I don't wish this on anyone.


You are right, sexless marriage is a complex issue. The cause is not the same in every marriage. So each person has to do the work for their own marriage to identify the issues and then fix them if at all possible. If it cannot be fixed, then they need to decide if they will just live with a sexless marriage or if they will leave.

That's what this thread is about and why I provide a good list of books for a woman in this situation to use to id the problem, fix the problem and decide what she will do if it cannot be fixed.


----------



## Buddy400

MrsHolland said:


> I won't participate in the other thread, TAM is not the place to have a supportive discussion about this topic. *All I will say is that the differences are vast and that this is recognised by ICs that deal with this topic*. Sure there are similarities and absolutely divorce is a valid end result for both genders. The overall experience is different though in part due to the very different expectations/ societal stereotypes and lack of support for women in this situation.


Then it would seem that you should participate in the other thread.

I agree that the differences are probably vast, which goes against what seems to be Elegirl's thesis (that they are exactly the same).


----------



## EleGirl

Cletus said:


> Because it is my reality. Since I'm no special snowflake, I can assume that it is the reality of at least some other husbands and wives. If it does not apply to you and yours, then ignore it, even if the actual advice I posted is inarguably good advice for both partners in any marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steteotype my ass. This is my goddamned reality, and you would do well to take a measure of your own medicine and neither ignore not minimize it because you find it inconvenient.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I married that woman, so in my world, she's no stereotype. Shall we attempt to deligitimze my experiences further or shall we admit that sometimed this is the precise problem? A problem which no doubt happens to plenty of women too, I'll add.
> 
> You wanted a thread on sex starved marriages where the man had lost interest. Now do you want the input from the man in such a marriage, or would you rather grind an ax?


It seems that I and a few others took your post to be more broad based then just you talking about your own marriage. Sorry if that was not your intent.

I do agree with you that everyone in a sexless marriage needs to look at their contribution. It does take two and sometimes people unwittingly do things that drive the other away.

If a woman (or man) is behaving in the manner you say your wife is, and they want a sex life, they need to fix their own lack luster behavior.


----------



## EleGirl

Cletus said:


> You wanted a thread on sex starved marriages where the man had lost interest. Now do you want the input from the man in such a marriage, or would you rather grind an ax?


Input from men who have lost interest is welcome.... as long as it is providing information that women can use to address their own marital problems.


----------



## EleGirl

sixty-eight said:


> Denying sex to control is (I think) a very small subset of reasons to be in a sex starved marriage. There are a few of us here, in my opinion, but we are in the minority.
> I have enclosed links if you think you might be experiencing this, but i don't want to take the whole thread in this direction. Just to offer another valid explanation.
> 
> Narcissists, Sex and Fidelity - The Somatic Narcissist, The Asexual Cerebral Narcissist, Extramarital Affairs, and Paraphilias
> Sexual Attitudes of a Narcissist: Sex and the Narcissist - The Narcissistic Life
> 
> I added your links to the first post on this thread because I think that they will help some who are reading here. But some people will only read the first few posts.


----------



## MrsHolland

Buddy400 said:


> Then it would seem that you should participate in the other thread.
> 
> I agree that the differences are probably vast, which goes against what seems to be Elegirl's thesis (that they are exactly the same).


TBH the only interest I have in all of this is to support people that are in pain and stand up for those that are still in a place of personal weakness due to the pain. Not interested in discussing this with people that just want to blame women or that get headaches because they think it is wrong for the women to analyse what is happening and why.

This topic consumed a lot of my energy for some time post divorce so I sought a lot of help from IC's and did copious amounts of reading and talking to others in similar situations. When I said the differences are vast I meant the difference between the dynamics/causes/issues with a HD man LD woman v's HD woman LD man. But yes even within these sub groups there are big differences on the why's. It is complex and with the HD female situation it has an added layer of personal struggles as we women are told men want sex then when a husband does not want sex it is hard to understand and there is no support out there. It is very isolating as a woman in this situation. We don't hear jokes about wedding cake being a food that changes men or all the other stupid stereotypes that are placed on women.

None of this is to say it is not hard on men when his marriage is sexless not of his own doing, simply that there are differences in how this situation plays out for men and women and that this discussion should be a safe place for women, not a place where they are told to lose weight and be more adventurous, both of those suggestions are particularly insulting to women that have kept themselves in shape and are willing partners. It seems that some men want to lay the blame at the feet of women, no matter what the situation is.

Can I ask you your background? Were you the poster that was in a sexless marriage but turned it around? Not sure if I have the right person.


----------



## EleGirl

Blondilocks said:


> Cletus' point is posted on page 1 of this thread. Ele cited a list of reasons why men stop wanting sex with their wives and the lack of adventurous sex was the first reason listed.
> 
> This thread is about the 'sex starved wife' and is intended to be a support thread for the women. Anger and arguments are not going to help the women in this situation.


Yes the list does have Cletus' point as the two top reasons. (Note that men in the survey could pick many things on the list of reasons, so there is a lot of overlaps. It's probably the same men who selected both of these reasons.

But we need to look further than just the stated percentage. In the OP, I include what the author's said about this. Basically, based on their interviews with the men, the men were no more adventurous than their wives (as a whole) and the researchers conclude *"We suspect that boredom or other factors is closer to the truth, or they are confusing the pornography they see on DVDs or the Internet with reality."*



EleGirl said:


> *%% WHY MEN SAID THEY STOPPED REASON*
> 
> 68%……She isn’t sexually adventurous enough for me. (This lack of newness, energy, and emotion translates for many men into a
> ...........lack of adventure and sexual enjoyment on the part of their partners, transferring the problem and ignoring the fact that
> ...........they’re not bringing any originality to bed, either.)
> 
> 61%……She doesn’t seem to enjoy sex.
> 
> Although the men know (or at least think they know) the reasons for their voluntary celibacy but the women are only guessing, either way the situation is embarrassing and painful. * It is therefore not surprising that both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves.* Indeed, men indicate a lack of sexual adventure (hers, not his) as primary. It is difficult to believe that this lack of erotic excitement is completely one-sided, and that these men who identify their wives as unadventurous are themselves imaginatively passionate guys, just somehow mysteriously unable to inspire the one woman they chose to marry. Both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves. After all, they probably knew her acceptable level of tolerance for erotic exploration before the vows were exchanged. We suspect that boredom or other factors is closer to the truth, or they are confusing the pornography they see on DVDs or the Internet with reality.
> 
> Berkowitz, Bob; Yager-Berkowitz, Susan. He's Just Not Up for It Anymore: Why Men Stop Having Sex, and What You Can Do About It (pp. 13-15). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.





Blondilocks said:


> Twenty-three years into my marriage, my husband developed ED. He didn't want to talk about it or do anything about it. It was a tremendous blow to his ego (didn't do anything for mine either). Twenty-three years later, I figure I'm just about a re-born virgin.


It was your choice to let this go. It's a valid choice. Not one that a lot of women would chose. But making our own choices is a large part of the solution in a sexless marriage.


----------



## Buddy400

MrsHolland said:


> It is complex and with the HD female situation it has an added layer of personal struggles as we women are told men want sex then when a husband does not want sex it is hard to understand and there is no support out there. It is very isolating as a woman in this situation. We don't hear jokes about wedding cake being a food that changes men or all the other stupid stereotypes that are placed on women.


Very true. a man in a sexless marriage due to his wife is a cultural meme (Men always want sex, women don't). People don't understand that it happens the other way. 



MrsHolland said:


> Can I ask you your background? Were you the poster that was in a sexless marriage but turned it around? Not sure if I have the right person.


I had a sexless "element" of our marriage that I turned around, but it wasn't sexless.

I probably have some things to say from a LD male POV.


----------



## MEM2020

I would like to remind everyone that this is one of the most emotionally loaded topics we deal with on TAM.

Most people on the receiving end of chronic rejection end up injured by it. Let's try to recognize that the injuries are severe regardless of the underlying drivers. 

Understanding those drivers is difficult even with fair winds and following seas. 

This is a great thread and I'm grateful to Ele for starting it. 





Cletus said:


> Because it is my reality. Since I'm no special snowflake, I can assume that it is the reality of at least some other husbands and wives. If it does not apply to you and yours, then ignore it, even if the actual advice I posted is inarguably good advice for both partners in any marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steteotype my ass. This is my goddamned reality, and you would do well to take a measure of your own medicine and neither ignore not minimize it because you find it inconvenient.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I married that woman, so in my world, she's no stereotype. Shall we attempt to deligitimze my experiences further or shall we admit that sometimed this is the precise problem? A problem which no doubt happens to plenty of women too, I'll add.
> 
> You wanted a thread on sex starved marriages where the man had lost interest. Now do you want the input from the man in such a marriage, or would you rather grind an ax?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


----------



## EleGirl

peacem said:


> I get this and believe it is likely to be true. However, I think to be the perfect sexual wife we are expected to be totally up for it, adventurous and sexual confident, but only when the husband wants us to be and in a way he wants us to be. We accommodate their needs, we want to satisfy their needs, we will jump through flaming hoops to be what they want us to be...as long as we don't cross the boundary by also expressing our own needs and how often we need sexual contact, and what little kinks we may enjoy. This apparently can be a huge turn-off for men (according to some threads I have read on TAM). We then cross the line from sexual confidence to sexual harassment/nagging.
> 
> I think if men were more open to the idea that women can have several orgasms in succession, have a break and then go again. That it is a wonderful thing to do to your partner regardless of whether there is an erection and ejaculation or not...women would be more verbally open with their partners about their sexuality, their fantasies, kinks, frequency of need. A lot of women suppress their sexual needs to a point of they convince themselves that they don't need it - they condition themselves to switch their sexual urges off (in a fear of being unladylike). When you start to recognise those feelings and always act upon them, and welcome them, you realise that you are actually HD (and I believe that most of us are HD but think we are LD because of years of suppression). I think if some men stopped equating pleasing their sexual partner with solely an erect penis - then there are some amazing things to be discovered. But it takes confidence on the female side and vulnerability on the male side.


Good post. I think it addresses pretty well the point from the book about those percentages.



EleGirl said:


> *%% WHY MEN SAID THEY STOPPED REASON*
> Although the men know (or at least think they know) the reasons for their voluntary celibacy but the women are only guessing, either way the situation is embarrassing and painful. * It is therefore not surprising that both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves.* Indeed, men indicate a lack of sexual adventure (hers, not his) as primary. It is difficult to believe that this lack of erotic excitement is completely one-sided, and that these men who identify their wives as unadventurous are themselves imaginatively passionate guys, just somehow mysteriously unable to inspire the one woman they chose to marry. Both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves. After all, they probably knew her acceptable level of tolerance for erotic exploration before the vows were exchanged. We suspect that boredom or other factors is closer to the truth, or they are confusing the pornography they see on DVDs or the Internet with reality.
> 
> Berkowitz, Bob; Yager-Berkowitz, Susan. He's Just Not Up for It Anymore: Why Men Stop Having Sex, and What You Can Do About It (pp. 13-15). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.


----------



## MEM2020

Ele,
I know why M2 is hotter/more desirable than I am. At heart she is a 'fierce creature', and I am not. While I am grateful that she likes enough of the other factors - for everything to work - I accept that her ideal sexual partner would be more like her and less like me. 





EleGirl said:


> It seems that I and a few others took your post to be more broad based then just you talking about your own marriage. Sorry if that was not your intent.
> 
> I do agree with you that everyone in a sexless marriage needs to look at their contribution. It does take two and sometimes people unwittingly do things that drive the other away.
> 
> If a woman (or man) is behaving in the manner you say your wife is, and they want a sex life, they need to fix their own lack luster behavior.


----------



## MEM2020

I am less adventurous than M2 in bed. 

I don't reject new stuff, but I never introduce it either. 

Tell you this though - it is obvious when your partner has completely tuned out the rest of the world and is 100% focused on you. That's a powerful aphrodisiac. 





EleGirl said:


> Yes the list does have Cletus' point as the two top reasons. (Note that men in the survey could pick many things on the list of reasons, so there is a lot of overlaps. It's probably the same men who selected both of these reasons.
> 
> But we need to look further than just the stated percentage. In the OP, I include what the author's said about this. Basically, based on their interviews with the men, the men were no more adventurous than their wives (as a whole) and the researchers conclude *"We suspect that boredom or other factors is closer to the truth, or they are confusing the pornography they see on DVDs or the Internet with reality."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was your choice to let this go. It's a valid choice. Not one that a lot of women would chose. But making our own choices is a large part of the solution in a sexless marriage.


----------



## peacem

MEM2020 said:


> Ele,
> I know why M2 is hotter/more desirable than I am. At heart she is a *'fierce creature*',


Hi MEM2020
If you don't mind sharing, what do you mean by a 'fierce creature'? I'm just curious :smile2:.


----------



## Blondilocks

MrsHolland said:


> Are you saying you have been married for 46 years with the last 23 being sexless? Are you happy anyway?
> 
> Even being a HD woman I would have lived in a sexless marriage if he had of shown some effort to address his issues. It was the lack of this that caused me to end the marriage, not the lack of sex.
> 
> In the end I don't think it is healthy to stay in a sexless marriage no matter what the cause is. The bonus though after living like this for some years is that it was so amazing when I got back out into the living world and rediscovered how fantastic good sex is. I covert what I have now.


My husband passed on 3 years ago. Yes, I am happy and was happy. I loved my husband and never thought of divorcing over this issue. He was very affectionate and I never doubted his love for me. For me, the phrase 'use it or lose it' applied. As time passed, the not thinking about sex led to significant decrease in desire. We were still romantic but in a different way.


----------



## EleGirl

MEM2020 said:


> I am less adventurous than M2 in bed.
> 
> I don't reject new stuff, but I never introduce it either.
> 
> Tell you this though - it is obvious when your partner has completely tuned out the rest of the world and is 100% focused on you. That's a powerful aphrodisiac.


Yes it is a power aphrodisiac.

But I can tell you from my own experience that in some marriages/relationships it does not matter. It is not enough to be completely into and turned on by your partner. For some this is not an aphrodisiac, or it's just not enough. There are people for whom nothing is enough. From a lot of the posts from women on here, I think that most of them have experienced this same thing.


----------



## uhtred

I think you are correct in describing a large number of cases of "LD" wives, who in fact are not LD at all, but are with men who are not treating them well. This may even be most cases.

There are also cases though that follow a very different pattern. There the man is willing to do anything sexual his wife wants, I don't just mean PIV, but a wide range of activities, including giving her as many O's as she wants.


I don't know if the same applies to male LD. Presumably some women do not know, or do not care how to please men, but I don't know if that is often the case in male LD - I suspect not. More often it seems that women in these situations (like men in the second case above) are willing to do anything they can to please their partners, but still the men don't want sex. Then the cause is less obvious.

Those of us who are normal to HD, have trouble imagining someone not wanting sex if the situation was right. With a caring skilled passionate partner that we loved. But those situations do seem to exist. 









peacem said:


> I get this and believe it is likely to be true. However, I think to be the perfect sexual wife we are expected to be totally up for it, adventurous and sexual confident, but only when the husband wants us to be and in a way he wants us to be. We accommodate their needs, we want to satisfy their needs, we will jump through flaming hoops to be what they want us to be...as long as we don't cross the boundary by also expressing our own needs and how often we need sexual contact, and what little kinks we may enjoy. This apparently can be a huge turn-off for men (according to some threads I have read on TAM). We then cross the line from sexual confidence to sexual harassment/nagging.
> 
> I think if men were more open to the idea that women can have several orgasms in succession, have a break and then go again. That it is a wonderful thing to do to your partner regardless of whether there is an erection and ejaculation or not...women would be more verbally open with their partners about their sexuality, their fantasies, kinks, frequency of need. A lot of women suppress their sexual needs to a point of they convince themselves that they don't need it - they condition themselves to switch their sexual urges off (in a fear of being unladylike). When you start to recognise those feelings and always act upon them, and welcome them, you realise that you are actually HD (and I believe that most of us are HD but think we are LD because of years of suppression). I think if some men stopped equating pleasing their sexual partner with solely an erect penis - then there are some amazing things to be discovered. But it takes confidence on the female side and vulnerability on the male side.


----------



## MEM2020

Peace,

Fierce creature: A person who has both a lot of edge and courage. Who does what needs doing without worrying about the blowback that might come their way. 

I'm - more of an analyst - M2 is more a warrior. 

Maybe an example is better than a Webster-ish type definition.

M2's oldest sister is a devout, hardcore Catholic. After we had been dating a few months M2 said: We ought to visit my sister. Just to avoid any surprises, she and her husband and 5 children live a biblical style life. I asked what that meant and she told me: Her H is the HEAD of the house, and she is subservient to him.

I shrugged and said - set it up.

After our visit, which was - as expected - we were driving home. And I casually asked.
MEM: So ummm, when am I gonna start seeing this whole subservient routine?
M2: Soon as you convert ******

That - is how a fierce creature responds - when challenged. 




peacem said:


> Hi MEM2020
> If you don't mind sharing, what do you mean by a 'fierce creature'? I'm just curious :smile2:.


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM2020 said:


> Peace,
> 
> Fierce creature: A person who has both a lot of edge and courage. Who does what needs doing without worrying about the blowback that might come their way.
> 
> I'm - more of an analyst - M2 is more a warrior.
> 
> Maybe an example is better than a Webster-ish type definition.
> 
> M2's oldest sister is a devout, hardcore Catholic. After we had been dating a few months M2 said: We ought to visit my sister. Just to avoid any surprises, she and her husband and 5 children live a biblical style life. I asked what that meant and she told me: Her H is the HEAD of the house, and she is subservient to him.
> 
> I shrugged and said - set it up.
> 
> After our visit, which was - as expected - we were driving home. And I casually asked.
> MEM: So ummm, when am I gonna start seeing this whole subservient routine?
> M2: Soon as you convert ******
> 
> That - is how a fierce creature responds - when challenged.


We are married to similar creatures, Mem.

Unfortunately, I have just enough fighter in me to lead to occasional, fierce wars...


----------



## MEM2020

Ele,

You typically respond to new folks with a great question. You ask how many hours a week they spend together.

I ask a similar question which is: Does your spouse crave your company?

So now I'm going to tie those questions back to this thread. If someone craves your company - that is a great foundation. The next question might be - how much laughter do you share?

Thing about that is - laughter is an apex response. There's a whole bunch of good stuff needs to be true in order for laughter to be a common outcome of companionship. 

1. Your partner needs to KNOW you and 
2. You have to be at ease in their presence and
3. Both of you need to be fully engaged - if either of you is only half paying attention - or is preoccupied with emotional noise from work/friends/family - the humor doesn't happen

And I'm not talking about telling each other jokes - just the full body laugh that sometimes just 'happens'.

And ideally there is a decent amount of symmetry in the humor - you both make each other laugh. 

Resentment kills humor as much as desire. 

Reason I mention this is - the world is full of mechanically sound but emotionally impaired marriages. Between dinners and shared child rearing you might spend a lot of hours with someone - but not engage each other in a meaningful way. 

Don't get me wrong - 15-20 hours a week is a good start - but - physical co-location and deep engagement are radically different. 





EleGirl said:


> Input from men who have lost interest is welcome.... as long as it is providing information that women can use to address their own marital problems.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@EleGirl: I am a male refuser. I think you are correct that often it is about anger and resentment. Unfortunately, it will be difficult in most cases to get him to admit that. After all, if he wants to stay married, but he is filled with anger and resentment, he isn't going to want to admit that. If he wants to stay married for financial reasons, or because he is lazy and doesn't want to do the work to find someone else, he isn't going to want to give his wife reason to divorce him. So he will hide and lie about why he doesn't want sex with his wife.

I know you only wanted to hear from men who have advice on how a woman in a sexless marriage can improve her sex life. I wish I had better advice to give than: if you suspect he is holding back from anger and spite, then if you want to have a decent sex life you will have to leave - or at least credibly threaten to leave so his incentives are changed. Force him to be honest to keep the marriage. If what he wants most is for the marriage to continue, and his wife is not willing to divorce him, then she will never get truth or sex from him.

@MEM2020: I too am married to a fierce creature. Unfortunately, I am a poor fit for her.

And I totally agree about craving time together, the quality of that time, and sharing laughter. In the bad old days, we shared too little time, and when we did there was no laughter. Now we share more time and there is more laughter. And yes, if I were open to it, there could be more sex.

@farsidejunky: I disagree that it is unfortunate you have some fight in you. I think that is good and what keep your marriage healthy. I have no fight and it drives my wife nuts. She hates that I am so compliant. Or that I used to be. Now I stand up to her but I don't fight. More like grey rock. She hates that.


----------



## Shiksa

I just spent the weekend with 5 longtime friends (30+ years) out of the six of us, the winner got sex "occasionally" I was he runner up with having had intimacy in June. The reasons varied from depression to emotional infidelity and such. none of us talk about it outside our circle. We feel ashamed. I know I have tried and tried with my H and now have given up. We are great companions and parents, but that's all. We spend lots of time together since the kids are pretty independent. We enjoy each other's company and have fun. If I ask for intimacy, he will comply. But who wants pity sex? I fear the future when the last leaves the nest.


----------



## uhtred

That is very sad. I think sexless marriages are more common than many people realize

Were all of the women being turned down by their husbands, or were some turning down their husbands for some reason? 





Shiksa said:


> I just spent the weekend with 5 longtime friends (30+ years) out of the six of us, the winner got sex "occasionally" I was he runner up with having had intimacy in June. The reasons varied from depression to emotional infidelity and such. none of us talk about it outside our circle. We feel ashamed. I know I have tried and tried with my H and now have given up. We are great companions and parents, but that's all. We spend lots of time together since the kids are pretty independent. We enjoy each other's company and have fun. If I ask for intimacy, he will comply. But who wants pity sex? I fear the future when the last leaves the nest.


----------



## Shiksa

Husbands not interested and being turned down. In my case, my husband doesnt turn me down, but if I don't initiate it doesn't happen. It's classic pity sex. Other husbands have turned to the internet, and not just porn or have flat out said they are not attracted to their wife. These are all very fit women. I'm the heavy one who has gained 20 lbs since marriage. We all work, and take care of most everything in the house.


----------



## Cletus

Shiksa said:


> Husbands not interested and being turned down. In my case, my husband doesnt turn me down, but if I don't initiate it doesn't happen. It's classic pity sex. Other husbands have turned to the internet, and not just porn or have flat out said they are not attracted to their wife. These are all very fit women. I'm the heavy one who has gained 20 lbs since marriage. We all work, and take care of most everything in the house.


Have any of you managed to drag from your husbands the reasons for their supposed lost attraction? 

Sex in my marriage has always been initiated by my wife. It's not a pity sex thing, it's a long established pattern learned early in our marriage when I discovered that her enthusiasm was much higher when it was her idea.

So I stopped initiating, not out of disinterest.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


----------



## Fishermanbear1984

I lost interest in sex with my wife for multiple reasons. Exhaustion from my frequent travel. Resentment. Loss of attraction due to her weight gain and refusal to do anything about it. Her constantly rebelling against my boundaries. Her insistence on letting the kids in our bed whether I was home or not.

However, my loss of interest in sex with her seems to have evolved into a loss of interest in sex at all. Now that we are splitting up, the last thing I am interested in is finding someone else to have sex with. I'm 32 years old and at this moment in my life I don't care if I ever have anything more than perhaps infrequent, meaningless one night stands for the rest of my life. I will NEVER marry again.

Perhaps my wife was right when she said that the fact that I managed to remain a virgin until I was in my mid 20s means there is something missing in me as far as sexual desire is concerned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> Have any of you managed to drag from your husbands the reasons for their supposed lost attraction?
> 
> Sex in my marriage has always been initiated by my wife. It's not a pity sex thing, it's a long established pattern learned early in our marriage when I discovered that her enthusiasm was much higher when it was her idea.
> 
> So I stopped initiating, not out of disinterest.


Cletus, I get your point, and I would wager that a LOT of couples with this dynamic (woman pursuing more sex than the man is) come from something similar to what your relationship has gone through.

But I do think there are a lot of just plain LD men out there, too. And in those cases, there's just nothing that can be done. We aren't hearing from those men here on this thread, similar to how we don't hear from truly LD women on TAM, either. It seems that truly LD people have no reason to go posting on message boards. (With the exception of the AVEN network, they have their own message boards...though they identify as asexual rather than LD. Still it is pretty fascinating reading for anyone who is interested in peeking into the minds of people who don't crave or seek sex http://www.asexuality.org/en/ )

In your case (I hesitate to ask because I think you are past trying to "fix" anything)....is there any way your situation could change at this point? If your wife did a 180 of sorts and suddenly was totally into you and open to all kinds of different sex and sexual touching and play with you, perhaps? I'm just curious if in a long term marriage where this dynamic has been taking shape over decades, can it ever be turned around? Even if it would take some kind of miracle like your wife doing a 180, I have the feeling it still couldn't be changed at this point.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> I lost interest in sex with my wife for multiple reasons. Exhaustion from my frequent travel. Resentment. Loss of attraction due to her weight gain and refusal to do anything about it. Her constantly rebelling against my boundaries. Her insistence on letting the kids in our bed whether I was home or not.
> 
> However, my loss of interest in sex with her seems to have evolved into a loss of interest in sex at all. Now that we are splitting up, the last thing I am interested in is finding someone else to have sex with. I'm 32 years old and at this moment in my life I don't care if I ever have anything more than perhaps infrequent, meaningless one night stands for the rest of my life. I will NEVER marry again.
> 
> *Perhaps my wife was right when she said that the fact that I managed to remain a virgin until I was in my mid 20s means there is something missing in me as far as sexual desire is concerned.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is very interesting. Can you talk more about this please?


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish

In my situation, there are a handful of reasons why the sex is infrequent. Both of us same some of the same reasons but not necessarily all. So my reasons are: 

1. I set a boundary many years ago that I would not have sex with my husband if he was drinking. Since he's always drinking, that ruled out a lot of opportunities. 

2. Resentment & Anger-mostly from the drinking but also from the online game playing. I was (am) angry at him for drinking and even on days when he's not, the anger just continues through the next day. I felt neglected. 

3. His use of porn, which I believe is excessive (at this point, I honestly have no idea how often anymore) and gives him an unrealistic expectation of intimacy. He also started asking, more frequently, for something that I did not enjoy doing. As a result, I would dread it because I would worry that he was going to ask again. And, I would say no again then feel guilty. 

4. Sex got boring. 

For him, this is what he would say and I'm going to keep from making snarky comments: 

1. My weight gain after marriage. 
2. I don't initiate it enough. 
3. Sex got boring. 

He is definitely at a higher drive than me. I'm good with once a week. He would probably be 3 times a week. I think right now, we're at an average of every other weekend. Both of us have become very complacent. The lack of sex is the result of the other issues going on the marriage, IMO. It's actually getting easier to not care. Would we have more sex if we made progress on the other issues? I'm not sure, but he's not drinking as much (4 days a week vs 7 days a week) and it hasn't improved. We're both frustrated, that much I can tell you.


----------



## CharlieParker

@tropicalbeachiwish thanks for sharing, helpful.


----------



## EleGirl

MEM2020 said:


> Ele,
> 
> You typically respond to new folks with a great question. You ask how many hours a week they spend together.
> 
> I ask a similar question which is: Does your spouse crave your company?
> 
> So now I'm going to tie those questions back to this thread. If someone craves your company - that is a great foundation. The next question might be - how much laughter do you share?
> 
> Thing about that is - laughter is an apex response. There's a whole bunch of good stuff needs to be true in order for laughter to be a common outcome of companionship.
> 
> 1. Your partner needs to KNOW you and
> 2. You have to be at ease in their presence and
> 3. Both of you need to be fully engaged - if either of you is only half paying attention - or is preoccupied with emotional noise from work/friends/family - the humor doesn't happen
> 
> And I'm not talking about telling each other jokes - just the full body laugh that sometimes just 'happens'.
> 
> And ideally there is a decent amount of symmetry in the humor - you both make each other laugh.
> 
> Resentment kills humor as much as desire.
> 
> Reason I mention this is - the world is full of mechanically sound but emotionally impaired marriages. Between dinners and shared child rearing you might spend a lot of hours with someone - but not engage each other in a meaningful way.
> 
> Don't get me wrong - 15-20 hours a week is a good start - but - physical co-location and deep engagement are radically different.


Good post.
You are right that physical co-location and deep engagement are radically different.

When I ask the question about how many hours a week a couple spends together, I qualify that I’m asking about times when it is only the two of them and they are engaged in quality time. 
Time watching TV, or going to a movie, is not quality time. They are not focused on each other.
Going for a walk, holding hands, and talking is quality time.. or date-like time.
Cuddling and having sex is also quality time.
Date-like things are not just going out on a date to an expensive restaurant. When people date, they usually do a lot of simple things, like the walk, sitting on the porch and talking, going for a picnic.

The 15 hours a week thing is a Marriage Builder guideline for a marriage that is going we. He says that if there is a problem in the marriage and they need to rebuild the passion/love/attraction it might take a lot more quality time than 15 hours a week to rebuild it. Then after a time they can cut back to the 15 hours a week.

In my marriages, the quality time declined pretty quickly… long before the sex stopped. And in was my husbands who were the ones who had no interest in spending quality time. And it was they who ended the sex. What is the lesson I learned? When the quality time ends, the marriage is over if you cannot get the quality time back to where it should be. I think it might be the first tell tail sign that of the magnitude of the problems.

What pisses me off are the lies that they tell to get you (generic you) to stay. Why would they want you to stay if they don’t even want to spend time? I guess having someone around to fill a role or to do things for them is about the only reason.


----------



## EleGirl

Holdingontoit said:


> @EleGirl: I am a male refuser. I think you are correct that often it is about anger and resentment. Unfortunately, it will be difficult in most cases to get him to admit that. After all, if he wants to stay married, but he is filled with anger and resentment, he isn't going to want to admit that. If he wants to stay married for financial reasons, or because he is lazy and doesn't want to do the work to find someone else, he isn't going to want to give his wife reason to divorce him. So he will hide and lie about why he doesn't want sex with his wife.


I agree with the above. This is why I think it’s important for a person in a sexless marriage to do the work, often very hard work, to figure out what’s going on. It’s profoundly unfair for one spouse to basically play games to try to keep the other spouse around in this sort of situation. That way the person who is being rejected can decide for themselves based on solid info whether to stay or not.

I would before some good fights/arguments to clear the air then the games and lies. 



Holdingontoit said:


> I know you only wanted to hear from men who have advice on how a woman in a sexless marriage can improve her sex life.


While I might have given that impression, it’s not what I want on this thread. What I do not want are stereo typical snide posts saying things like “well if you just acted like a porn star he’d have sex with you” or “the only reason men stop having sex is because they get tired of being rejected” or other blanket statements that are just not helpful.

I think that hearing from men who are the withholders help. There is a lot to learn hearing from all sides of the situation. 



Holdingontoit said:


> I wish I had better advice to give than: if you suspect he is holding back from anger and spite, then if you want to have a decent sex life you will have to leave - or at least credibly threaten to leave so his incentives are changed. Force him to be honest to keep the marriage. If what he wants most is for the marriage to continue, and his wife is not willing to divorce him, then she will never get truth or sex from him.


I totally agree.


----------



## anonmd

EleGirl said:


> What pisses me off are the lies that they tell to get you (generic you) to stay. Why would they want you to stay if they don’t even want to spend time? I guess having someone around to fill a role or to do things for them is about the only reason.


Cause you pay the bills and cook the meals?


----------



## EleGirl

anonmd said:


> Cause you pay the bills and cook the meals?


Something like that.

But in the end they lost.. cause I dumped their sorry behinds... >


----------



## MrsHolland

Love this post MEM, probably bc it is exactly how it would play out in my world :smile2::smile2:





MEM2020 said:


> Peace,
> 
> Fierce creature: A person who has both a lot of edge and courage. Who does what needs doing without worrying about the blowback that might come their way.
> 
> I'm - more of an analyst - M2 is more a warrior.
> 
> Maybe an example is better than a Webster-ish type definition.
> 
> M2's oldest sister is a devout, hardcore Catholic. After we had been dating a few months M2 said: We ought to visit my sister. Just to avoid any surprises, she and her husband and 5 children live a biblical style life. I asked what that meant and she told me: Her H is the HEAD of the house, and she is subservient to him.
> 
> I shrugged and said - set it up.
> 
> After our visit, which was - as expected - we were driving home. And I casually asked.
> MEM: So ummm, when am I gonna start seeing this whole subservient routine?
> M2: Soon as you convert ******
> 
> That - is how a fierce creature responds - when challenged.


----------



## Fishermanbear1984

FaithfulWife - when I started dating my wife, I was 22 and she was 16. She would have been more than willing to have sex with me, we weren't exclusive and I know she had slept with other guys and continued to do so. However my state takes statuatory rape VERY seriously and I'm a cautious person by nature - I didn't think it was worth the risk. So I kept dating her and didn't sleep with her until she turned 18. She was sure there had to be something wrong with me that I wasn't willing to screw her just because of some little law. Especially since I wasn't getting it elsewhere like she was. And before you ask why I didn't just go find someone my own age, she was the first and only woman who has ever expressed interest in me. I'm not a great catch physically and I'm a geek. 

We had a great sex life for about 3 years. After the kids came she gained a lot of weight and I started losing attraction to her. Sex was never a big deal to me the way it was to her and I've never minded not getting it. But she did. And now we are divorcing and it's a 100% mutual decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrsHolland

Holdingontoit said:


> @EleGirl: I am a male refuser. I think you are correct that often it is about anger and resentment. Unfortunately, it will be difficult in most cases to get him to admit that. After all, if he wants to stay married, but he is filled with anger and resentment, he isn't going to want to admit that. If he wants to stay married for financial reasons, or because he is lazy and doesn't want to do the work to find someone else, he isn't going to want to give his wife reason to divorce him. So he will hide and lie about why he doesn't want sex with his wife.
> 
> *I know you only wanted to hear from men who have advice on how a woman in a sexless marriage can improve her sex life.* I wish I had better advice to give than: if you suspect he is holding back from anger and spite, then if you want to have a decent sex life you will have to leave - or at least credibly threaten to leave so his incentives are changed. Force him to be honest to keep the marriage. If what he wants most is for the marriage to continue, and his wife is not willing to divorce him, then she will never get truth or sex from him.
> 
> @MEM2020: I too am married to a fierce creature. Unfortunately, I am a poor fit for her.
> 
> And I totally agree about craving time together, the quality of that time, and sharing laughter. In the bad old days, we shared too little time, and when we did there was no laughter. Now we share more time and there is more laughter. And yes, if I were open to it, there could be more sex.
> 
> @farsidejunky: I disagree that it is unfortunate you have some fight in you. I think that is good and what keep your marriage healthy. I have no fight and it drives my wife nuts. She hates that I am so compliant. Or that I used to be. Now I stand up to her but I don't fight. More like grey rock. She hates that.


Sorry HOTI it was probably my thread jack that gave that impression. There is a massive difference between coming in with genuine intentions v's just wanting to release internal anger on women posters. IMHO your input is extremely relevant.

My ex held a lot of internal anger/resentment but it was all very round-a-bout. He was angry with himself for not being the man I needed. In case you haven't guessed I am a very strong willed woman, my ex (who is a great guy BTW) is quite a weak man. 
He also had some deep seated sexual desires that he just could not share with me which in turn made me frustrated and him more internally angry. His parents gave him a terrible example of living till death in a very passive agresssive marriage, poor man was quite f'ed up due to his up bringing.

My life lesson in all of this and what I want others (men and women) to know is that you should not gauge the health of your future sexual relationship based on what happens in the first couple of years. We all root like rabbits in the early days.
The true key to seeing if you are sexually compatible for the long haul is if you are able to have great communication about sex. Can they talk about their likes, desires etc? Can they talk about masturbation, porn, boundaries? If a person can hold an open, honest, adult type of discussion about sex then their is much more hope for the future. If they cringe and cannot talk about sex then that would be a bit of a red flag (for me).


----------



## MrsHolland

Buddy400 said:


> Very true. a man in a sexless marriage due to his wife is a cultural meme (Men always want sex, women don't). People don't understand that it happens the other way.
> 
> 
> 
> I had a sexless "element" of our marriage that I turned around, but it wasn't sexless.
> 
> *I probably have some things to say from a LD male POV*.


Would be interesting to hear


----------



## Shiksa

Why have our husbands lost interest? The best answer my H has given me is he's depressed and tired. He does go to therapy which helps. I have always been enthusiastic about sex. Never gave pity sex. I've always realized the importance of having an intimate relationship. My H also suffers from ED. Other husbands in our group also suffer from depression, prefer the internet (which now has his wife not wanting to be with him), or life getting in the way. One flat out told her he wasn't attracted to her anymore, but now that she lost weight nothing has changed. This was also after he cheated. Lots of issues, but the end result is none of us were satisfied with our intimate relationships.

I have told my H many times I'm always ready to romp. He just never is in the mood. I feel unwanted. He swears he still wants me, but they are just words. I have been the pursuer our entire relationship and I'm tired. My H's therapist told me that he needs a 2x4 sometimes, but geez, I'm tired of hauling it around, especially using it for the same issue over and over. Unfortunately, it's time to bring it out again before I go crazy and become more resentful. Things will be ok for a while then they will slip away again.


----------



## Cletus

Faithful Wife said:


> In your case (I hesitate to ask because I think you are past trying to "fix" anything)....is there any way your situation could change at this point? If your wife did a 180 of sorts and suddenly was totally into you and open to all kinds of different sex and sexual touching and play with you, perhaps? I'm just curious if in a long term marriage where this dynamic has been taking shape over decades, can it ever be turned around? Even if it would take some kind of miracle like your wife doing a 180, I have the feeling it still couldn't be changed at this point.


It could turn around in a heartbeat if that happened. I still find her attractive. It's when I get in my head and remember that sex tonight will be almost as plain vanilla and uninspired as it has been since 1985 that I remember that I don't really much care if that happens or not. 

Remove that barrier and I'd be on her like a dog on a bone.


----------



## JaneJanet

So glad to hear that I'm not alone in being in a sexless relationship. My boyfriend of 4 years probably was rejecting me for sex twice a week until I gave up asking for it, and I'd have to beg him to make a move on me, saying I really needed that attention. He's 35 and I'm 32, in the early days (the first 6 months of our relationship) we had a great sex life. Now I have to ask for sex, and organise it, and he doesn't like that either as it he thinks that sex should be spontaneous. Maybe it's the stress and nagging that puts him off sex. I worry about our future and he is aware of that. He is unemployed and refuses to get a job until he finishes his phd (6 years of phd and he is only 1/2 way through), he is worried about having kids with me in the future - doesn't want to have kids until we're set up (something that is going very slowly the way he works with his phd). He is also in an industry that is hard to make a living in unfortunately. He also watches a lot of porn, often times he'll have porn windows open when I enter the room. On the other hand we have a lot of chemistry, cuddles, and great chats. We've had some other issues, and he's had some anger issues but they've been improving since going to counselling with him - which I have to pay for *sigh*. On the other hand he is supported by the dole, and refuses to let me pay for things for him. I'm kind of stuck in a rut.. 
Are there men who don't lose their sex drive in long term relationships?


----------



## uhtred

I've been married for 30 years and I'm still very attracted to my wife. Would have wild passionate sex at least several times a week if I could. Sadly she has no sexual interest in me. 



JaneJanet said:


> snip
> Are there men who don't lose their sex drive in long term relationships?


----------



## EleGirl

JaneJanet said:


> So glad to hear that I'm not alone in being in a sexless relationship. My boyfriend of 4 years probably was rejecting me for sex twice a week until I gave up asking for it, and I'd have to beg him to make a move on me, saying I really needed that attention. He's 35 and I'm 32, in the early days (the first 6 months of our relationship) we had a great sex life. Now I have to ask for sex, and organise it, and he doesn't like that either as it he thinks that sex should be spontaneous. Maybe it's the stress and nagging that puts him off sex. I worry about our future and he is aware of that. He is unemployed and refuses to get a job until he finishes his phd (6 years of phd and he is only 1/2 way through), he is worried about having kids with me in the future - doesn't want to have kids until we're set up (something that is going very slowly the way he works with his phd). He is also in an industry that is hard to make a living in unfortunately. He also watches a lot of porn, often times he'll have porn windows open when I enter the room. On the other hand we have a lot of chemistry, cuddles, and great chats. We've had some other issues, and he's had some anger issues but they've been improving since going to counselling with him - which I have to pay for *sigh*. On the other hand he is supported by the dole, and refuses to let me pay for things for him. I'm kind of stuck in a rut..
> 
> Are there men who don't lose their sex drive in long term relationships?


From what I've read, about 20% of marriages are sexless. Men chose to make their marriages sexless at about the same rate as women do. So, that's about 10% of men chose to make their marriage sexless. 


The percentage is probably about the same in non-married relationships. That would mean that most men, about 90%, have a sex life with their wife. So yea, there are a lot of men who are not like your boyfriend.

What on earth is he getting his Phd in that it is taking him so long?

Is this really the life that you want?


----------



## MrsHolland

JaneJanet said:


> So glad to hear that I'm not alone in being in a sexless relationship. My boyfriend of 4 years probably was rejecting me for sex twice a week until I gave up asking for it, and I'd have to beg him to make a move on me, saying I really needed that attention. He's 35 and I'm 32, in the early days (the first 6 months of our relationship) we had a great sex life. Now I have to ask for sex, and organise it, and he doesn't like that either as it he thinks that sex should be spontaneous. Maybe it's the stress and nagging that puts him off sex. I worry about our future and he is aware of that. He is unemployed and refuses to get a job until he finishes his phd (6 years of phd and he is only 1/2 way through), he is worried about having kids with me in the future - doesn't want to have kids until we're set up (something that is going very slowly the way he works with his phd). He is also in an industry that is hard to make a living in unfortunately. He also watches a lot of porn, often times he'll have porn windows open when I enter the room. On the other hand we have a lot of chemistry, cuddles, and great chats. We've had some other issues, and he's had some anger issues but they've been improving since going to counselling with him - which I have to pay for *sigh*. On the other hand he is supported by the dole, and refuses to let me pay for things for him. I'm kind of stuck in a rut..
> *Are there men who don't lose their sex drive in long term relationships*?


Honestly I would get out now, don't have kids with this guy. If he has the energy for porn but not for you then your future looks very bleak.

FWIW I ended my sexless marriage about 8 yrs ago now and after 12 months of introspection got back into the world. Did not want to get serious with anyone so had lots of fun but then one day met the now MrH, totally turned my world upside down. Short version, 6 yrs later and we are still having sex pretty much daily and take advantage of our kid free time on weekends so multiple times on weekends. The quality of the sex is 10/10, we are compatible and both want the other to be completely fulfilled. Mind you we are 49 and 54 yrs young, I am post menopausal, we have a blended family with 5 teenagers/ young adults.
We talk about our sex life, we have a "life" book that is broken up into sections, health, wealth, kids, travel etc also a section on sex where we write our goals, wants etc.
We lead very busy but interesting lives and make sex a major priority. We have lots of fun inside and outside the bedroom and we are one of those painful couples that can't keep our hands off each other but we do tone it down in public or when the kids are home.

My expectations are very high which I know pushes MrH to his limit at times. But I do not apologise for having high expectations as I give more than I expect. Anything other than the lifestyle I have listed above would not be good enough for me, I know I can be a very happy single woman. Please take a very close look at your life JJ, I wish I knew then what I know now when it comes to men and sex. If you are unhappy now then odds are it will not get better unless he acknowledges what is going on and actually takes steps to fix things.


----------



## MEM2020

Ele,

I genuinely didn't mean to over simplify your approach. I agree 100% with your post below. 

I also think it is the height of deviltry to pretend to love someone - in order to derive benefits from a marriage. 

I know that's M2 craves my company and touch. And that she would find me far more attractive were I to be a fierce creature myself. Alas, I am not. Nor am I willing to synthesize such a persona in the pursuit of lustfullness. 

Perhaps that will appear to others as a type of hubris or foolishness. But for me, it is merely a concious choice to reject a marriage constructed of smoke, mirrors and the holographic projection of what your partner wishes you were.




EleGirl said:


> Good post.
> You are right that physical co-location and deep engagement are radically different.
> 
> When I ask the question about how many hours a week a couple spends together, I qualify that I’m asking about times when it is only the two of them and they are engaged in quality time.
> Time watching TV, or going to a movie, is not quality time. They are not focused on each other.
> Going for a walk, holding hands, and talking is quality time.. or date-like time.
> Cuddling and having sex is also quality time.
> Date-like things are not just going out on a date to an expensive restaurant. When people date, they usually do a lot of simple things, like the walk, sitting on the porch and talking, going for a picnic.
> 
> The 15 hours a week thing is a Marriage Builder guideline for a marriage that is going we. He says that if there is a problem in the marriage and they need to rebuild the passion/love/attraction it might take a lot more quality time than 15 hours a week to rebuild it. Then after a time they can cut back to the 15 hours a week.
> 
> In my marriages, the quality time declined pretty quickly… long before the sex stopped. And in was my husbands who were the ones who had no interest in spending quality time. And it was they who ended the sex. What is the lesson I learned? When the quality time ends, the marriage is over if you cannot get the quality time back to where it should be. I think it might be the first tell tail sign that of the magnitude of the problems.
> 
> What pisses me off are the lies that they tell to get you (generic you) to stay. Why would they want you to stay if they don’t even want to spend time? I guess having someone around to fill a role or to do things for them is about the only reason.


----------



## Fozzy

I'll take a stab here.

I don't refuse, but I don't really have to. I haven't initiated since February. We haven't had sex since April. Why do I no longer initiate? It's hard to pin down one specific reason. I was on some medication (recently off) that lowered - but not killed - my drive. There are lingering resentments that flare from time to time. We don't seem to have much of a connection anymore. We rarely do anything as a couple.

I mentioned that I'm off the medication that I was taking, and my natural drive is coming back somewhat, but it's been so long and she's seemed to have not been at a loss at all that it seems rather awkward and forced to even restart things sexually now. I've made a couple of mild overtures that were basically ignored over the last couple of months.

At this point, without some sign of interest from her...I just don't have any interest back.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> Remove that barrier and I'd be on her like a dog on a bone.


Awwww........

That's romantic, to me.

I know it isn't to her though....so....


----------



## Faithful Wife

Fozzy said:


> I'll take a stab here.
> 
> I don't refuse, but I don't really have to. I haven't initiated since February. We haven't had sex since April. Why do I no longer initiate? It's hard to pin down one specific reason. I was on some medication (recently off) that lowered - but not killed - my drive. There are lingering resentments that flare from time to time. We don't seem to have much of a connection anymore. We rarely do anything as a couple.
> 
> I mentioned that I'm off the medication that I was taking, and my natural drive is coming back somewhat, but it's been so long and she's seemed to have not been at a loss at all that it seems rather awkward and forced to even restart things sexually now. I've made a couple of mild overtures that were basically ignored over the last couple of months.
> 
> At this point, without some sign of interest from her...I just don't have any interest back.


Sigh.....totally understandable about why you wouldn't bother showing interest.

But still.....


----------



## Faithful Wife

Fozzy said:


> At this point, without some sign of interest from her...I just don't have any interest back.


I would ask you the same question I asked Cletus then...and I think your answer would be the same, but I do want to hear from you and not speculate...

If your wife did her own 180, and started showing you sexual attention and interest, that you could feel was "real"....would that turn things around for you? Would you then freely be on her like white on rice?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> FaithfulWife - when I started dating my wife, I was 22 and she was 16. She would have been more than willing to have sex with me, we weren't exclusive and I know she had slept with other guys and continued to do so. However my state takes statuatory rape VERY seriously and I'm a cautious person by nature - I didn't think it was worth the risk. So I kept dating her and didn't sleep with her until she turned 18. She was sure there had to be something wrong with me that I wasn't willing to screw her just because of some little law. Especially since I wasn't getting it elsewhere like she was. And before you ask why I didn't just go find someone my own age, she was the first and only woman who has ever expressed interest in me. I'm not a great catch physically and I'm a geek.
> 
> We had a great sex life for about 3 years. After the kids came she gained a lot of weight and I started losing attraction to her. Sex was never a big deal to me the way it was to her and I've never minded not getting it. But she did. And now we are divorcing and it's a 100% mutual decision.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for sharing more of your story. 

You didn't really touch on what I was getting at though, can you expand on this, maybe?

Are you saying that you didn't have sex until your mid 20's because you were waiting for your girlfriend to turn 18 before you had sex? Were you dating each other this whole time?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Shiksa said:


> *Why have our husbands lost interest? The best answer my H has given me is he's depressed and tired*. He does go to therapy which helps. I have always been enthusiastic about sex. Never gave pity sex. I've always realized the importance of having an intimate relationship. *My H also suffers from ED*. Other husbands in our group also suffer from depression, prefer the internet (which now has his wife not wanting to be with him), or life getting in the way. One flat out told her he wasn't attracted to her anymore, but now that she lost weight nothing has changed. This was also after he cheated. Lots of issues, but the end result is none of us were satisfied with our intimate relationships.
> 
> I have told my H many times I'm always ready to romp. He just never is in the mood. I feel unwanted. He swears he still wants me, but they are just words. I have been the pursuer our entire relationship and I'm tired. My H's therapist told me that he needs a 2x4 sometimes, but geez, I'm tired of hauling it around, especially using it for the same issue over and over. Unfortunately, it's time to bring it out again before I go crazy and become more resentful. Things will be ok for a while then they will slip away again.


 @Shiksa I think depression is to blame in a lot of cases of people who have a general lack of desire and sexual energy.

Is he on meds for the ED? I have a new-ish boyfriend who is 54 years old. Before being with me (and he was single and dating for about 4 years) he had a negative attitude about anyone needing ED meds. Then when I came into his life and suggested them, he was at first offended...but after I explained that this was simply a matter of blood flow which can be assisted by medication, he tried them and saw what a difference they made. Now he is happy to take them, and I am happy that he takes them (when needed). It also seems that once he's taken them, sometimes he doesn't need it again for weeks or months even. 

My only point is that these meds are readily available and can make a huge difference (he he) in an older man's sex life. What a medical miracle this is, if you really think about it. Previous generations did not get to have sex into later life in the same way we can now. 

I know I say a hail to the viagra gods regularly. :smthumbup:


----------



## Fozzy

Faithful Wife said:


> I would ask you the same question I asked Cletus then...and I think your answer would be the same, but I do want to hear from you and not speculate...
> 
> If your wife did her own 180, and started showing you sexual attention and interest, that you could feel was "real"....would that turn things around for you? Would you then freely be on her like white on rice?


Yes. I still love her, but I'm exhausted by trying to make things click with no reciprocation.


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## Fishermanbear1984

FaithfulWife - yes, that would basically be accurate. However, although she was the only girl I was dating, I was far from the only guy she was dating. Not because she was cheating, but because it wasnt an exclusive relationship. She was not my girlfriend. She was just the only girl I ever dated because no other girl wanted to date me. I was a total loser - the guy that can't even get the girls who are also losers. I'm pretty sure that at this point she was only dating me because even at 22 I had money. We never would have gotten married if she hadn't gotten pregnant about a year after we started sleeping together.

The thing of it is, though - I love a good BJ as much as the next guy. We had a lot of that prior to her turning 18. Actual intercourse though? Doesn't do much for me. In fact I remember thinking after my first time, is that all? What's the big deal, why does everyone talk as if this is so great? It's something I can quite honestly live without. And before anyone asks - no, I don't watch porn. I don't masterbate. I just don't care. The only thing that does it for me is oral and if I can't get that I'm just fine doing without anything. Which drove my wife crazy and is probably at least part of the reason we are getting divorced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shiksa

Faithful wife he did try ed meds. They really didn't help. He took daily cialis for a year. No noticeable difference. He has told me he just doesn't think about sex. We both think it's psychological, but he doesn't (or won't say) what is going on in his head.


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## EllisRedding

EleGirl said:


> The 15 hours a week thing is a Marriage Builder guideline for a marriage that is going we. He says that if there is a problem in the marriage and they need to rebuild the passion/love/attraction it might take a lot more quality time than 15 hours a week to rebuild it. Then after a time they can cut back to the 15 hours a week.


Honestly this whole 15 hr guideline is mind boggling. Don't get me wrong, best case both are making enough time for each other, but 15hrs a week is just not realistic (at least for me, but I know others who are knee deep in work/family life as well that would agree).


----------



## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> Honestly this whole 15 hr guideline is mind boggling. Don't get me wrong, best case both are making enough time for each other, but 15hrs a week is just not realistic (at least for me, but I know others who are knee deep in work/family life as well that would agree).


How are their relationships with their spouse? 

We all choose what to make a priority in our lives.

Maybe a discussion on what constitutes quality time would be a good thread.


----------



## EllisRedding

EleGirl said:


> How are their relationships with their spouse?
> 
> We all choose what to make a priority in our lives.
> 
> Maybe a discussion on what constitutes quality time would be a good thread.


Similar to mine, mostly good. Realistically during the week there is very little time available, so you would need the weekend to try and make up the bulk of the 15 hours (which with family activities, etc... is not really doable to get that many hours in). I do agree though, it may be more about what constitutes quality time (you listed watching TV as not quality time, but I differ as for me watching TV together is considered quality time, assuming we are doing that together since it usually involves curling up together and no kids). Would make a good separate discussion thread.


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## uhtred

Some PhD's take a really long time. Mine was 7 years, the guy before me almost 12. 

It all depends on the field. Sciences can be really bad if there is a large experiment, or rocket launch needed as part of the project. 



EleGirl said:


> snip
> What on earth is he getting his Phd in that it is taking him so long?
> 
> Is this really the life that you want?


----------



## GTdad

Fozzy said:


> Yes. I still love her, but I'm exhausted by trying to make things click with no reciprocation.


I'm sorry, brother. It seems like the last time I read about your relationship (last year?), things seemed to be on the upswing. I'm sorry to hear that things have swung back down.


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## Buddy400

MrsHolland said:


> Would be interesting to hear


Well, I'm almost certainly a LD male from the perspective of Low-T.

I like sex plenty, I'm interested in sex, but I just never had an overwhelming need to have it. Not enough testosterone.

This has had some advantages. I was never compelled my d!ck to make stupid decisions. If a woman wanted to withhold sex to gain power in the relationship, it didn't work; I could live without it. Getting sex never kept me in a relationship that wasn't good for me. The need for sex never compromised my ability to make good decisions. 

But, when you don't have a lot of testosterone coursing through your system, erections don't just happen automatically. There are complications occasionally. This affects both partners. The man get worries about it which leads to performance anxiety and makes things worse. The woman has been taught that if the guy doesn't get an instant hard-on, then there's something wrong with her. It takes a lot of work to get past that crap and most relationships aren't good enough to accomplish it.

The problem is that sex is an important part of a relationship and you can't really have a worthwhile relationship without it. Beyond the bonding that it encourages, there's the fact that many (I'd think most) women need to feel that their guy desires them sexually (whether or not they're responsive), it's very important to their self image (I think a lot of guys have been taught to expect that their wives won't desire them sexually, so it's not such a shock).

Knowing, after the first experience or two, that sex could be problematic for me, I didn't enter relationships easily. This limited my "options" (which turned out to be another benefit, as it left me available for my wife).

So, after a couple of failed marriages (sex probably played a significant part in the ending of the first, but looking back we had no business being married in the first place, the second wife was just insane). I met my wife of 27 years.

She's not necessarily HD, but she was smart enough to know how important sex was to a marriage (as did I) and wouldn't let it disappear. If it had been more than a week, she'd call it out and suggest that we needed to get it on. Everything other than sex was fantastic (and the sex was pretty good). When we had problems she wanted me to take actions to address them.

The difference between me most every LD man or woman on this site is that I cared about my relationship and my wife's happiness and so I *did* do everything I could to address the problem. In addition to seeing doctors, etc this included having the courage to keep entering the game even though I was aware that I might not perform as well as I'd like. It would have been very easy to withdraw, not discuss it and blame it on my wife. But, I'm not an a$$hole, it would have be very cruel and unfair to my wife and it would have destroyed the marriage. For my wife's part she's always been very loving and supportive. If she'd handled it the wrong way (complaining about performance, etc) it never would have worked. We'd married in our early thirties and she'd figured out from experience that there was more she needed from a man than a ready hard-on. As a result, we've never been sexless, the sex has been always good and, at times, spectacular. She claims that she's having the best orgasms of her life. We are exceptionally happily married.

Although I'm probably LD, I always sympathize with the HD's when the LD just refuses to address the issue. I'm particularly annoyed when the HD says how great the marriage is in other respects and how they still love them.

If the LD loved you, cared about the relationship and cared about your happiness, they'd do something about it.

If they don't, then they don't love you, they don't care about your happiness or they are too selfish to notice that you're unhappy.

If someone claims to love you but that "love" doesn't result in anything positive happening for you, I'm not sure that kind of love is worth much.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> So, after a couple of failed marriages (sex probably played a significant part in the ending of the first, but looking back we had no business being married in the first place, the second wife was just insane). I met my wife of 27 years.
> 
> She's not necessarily HD, but she was smart enough to know how important sex was to a marriage (as did I) and wouldn't let it disappear. If it had been more than a week, she'd call it out and suggest that we needed to get it on. Everything other than sex was fantastic (and the sex was pretty good). When we had problems she wanted me to take actions to address them.


Did you explain the sex issue to your current wife when you met? Were you self-aware enough by then to know yourself and be able to explain to her how things would be? In other words, did she go into this knowing what to expect?


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Did you explain the sex issue to your current wife when you met? Were you self-aware enough by then to know yourself and be able to explain to her how things would be? In other words, did she go into this knowing what to expect?


I didn't "know" that there was an issue. To the degree that there was a problem, it was that I simply couldn't be counted on to have "automatic", easy hard-ons every time. Since we had sex on the second date, there wouldn't have been much opportunity to discuss it ahead of time even if I'd known exactly what the situation was. She knew what she was getting into soon enough to take a pass if she'd wanted to.

Since she has subsequently said that she'd have married me even if I didn't have a penis (there are other ways to do the job), I'm guessing that she was of the opinion that I brought enough other stuff to the table to make it worth working through problems which she might have avoided with another man.


----------



## anonmd

EleGirl said:


> Input from men who have lost interest is welcome.... as long as it is providing information that women can use to address their own marital problems.


Not sure what 'lost interest' means in relation to LD or not. There were 2 instances in the past where my partner's generally shiitty attitude towards sex and frequency led me to 'lose interest'. The conversation in my head was something along the lines of 'screw it, I'll just jerk off a lot''. Instance #1 went around 6 months and instance #2 closer to 9. 

I was not uninterested, just unwilling to play the BS games required. If you asked her at the time pre-cutoff she would have probably said she was 'happy' with the 1-3 times a month when she felt like it followed by 1 every month or two and she thought I was OK with it because I wasn't being too much of a problem. The point of that is not to blame it on the women but to say what you think is going on in his head is probably wrong if you don't discuss it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

anonmd said:


> Not sure what 'lost interest' means in relation to LD or not. There were 2 instances in the past where my partner's generally shiitty attitude towards sex and frequency led me to 'lose interest'. The conversation in my head was something along the lines of 'screw it, I'll just jerk off a lot''. Instance #1 went around 6 months and instance #2 closer to 9.
> 
> I was not uninterested, just unwilling to play the BS games required. If you asked her at the time pre-cutoff she would have probably said she was 'happy' with the 1-3 times a month when she felt like it followed by 1 every month or two and she thought I was OK with it because I wasn't being too much of a problem. *The point of that is not to blame it on the women but to say what you think is going on in his head is probably wrong if you don't discuss it*.


Did you discuss it with her? So that she knew you were "just jerking off a lot" instead of initiating sex?


----------



## anonmd

No, my bad I suppose. But when you are getting turned down 3, 4, and 5 to 1...


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## Faithful Wife

anonmd said:


> No, my bad I suppose. But when you are getting turned down 3, 4, and 5 to 1...


So the bolded sentence in your post I quoted above....how are we supposed to know these things if the man won't discuss it with us? (gender only relevant in this post because of this particular thread discussion....but generally speaking, acting a certain way to prove your point to a partner but not telling your partner you are doing this is considered passive aggressive behavior and usually doesn't lead to happy outcomes)


----------



## uhtred

This can be tricky - balancing talking an pestering. Some time ago, after years of her dismissing my desires, I told my wife exactly what I wanted in sex, what things, how often, etc. I haven't said anything since then, but have stopped actively asking for sex. 

In the past I would ask more frequently, and give more general descriptions of what I would like (which were ignored).

I don't know where the dividing line is. Is it passive aggressive for me not to give her the same information again? After a month? a year? 



Faithful Wife said:


> So the bolded sentence in your post I quoted above....how are we supposed to know these things if the man won't discuss it with us? (gender only relevant in this post because of this particular thread discussion....but generally speaking, acting a certain way to prove your point to a partner but not telling your partner you are doing this is considered passive aggressive behavior and usually doesn't lead to happy outcomes)


----------



## Faithful Wife

uhtred said:


> This can be tricky - balancing talking an pestering. Some time ago, after years of her dismissing my desires, I told my wife exactly what I wanted in sex, what things, how often, etc. I haven't said anything since then, but have stopped actively asking for sex.
> 
> In the past I would ask more frequently, and give more general descriptions of what I would like (which were ignored).
> 
> I don't know where the dividing line is. Is it passive aggressive for me not to give her the same information again? After a month? a year?


If you are never going to leave her over the lack of sex (which I think I have understood from other posts of yours), then no, I don't see any reason to bring it up again. You have essentially said (in your actions) that you will accept her dismissal of your desires and still stay and still be faithful. So what would be the point of bringing them up again?


----------



## AVR1962

I am coming in way late on this discussion. I am recently divorced, was with my husband for 27 years. When we met he did not approach me for sex. We were both in our late 20's and every guy I had dated was eager so my thought at the time was that it was sure nice to finally meet a gentleman, someone that wasn't all over me. I also noticed that he really didn't show interest in me and that I was seeking him out more than him seeking me and I asked if he was actually interested. We talked about why he had not approached me sexually and his response was that he didn't know I was interested. Assured me that he was interested in me but it was always me going to him. He however had this hook for porn, had boxes of porn in the house. He was kind of a nerdy type and I think he knew that women liked him as a friend, learned early on in his dating years. I don't think he had alot of confidence with his efforts so he resorted to lustful fantasy thinking. I thought this would pass once he got comfortable with me and realized I was safe. But it never changed, not after we were married. Not after we were married many years in fact.

His go-to of interest and satisfaction was porn, looking up ladies on the internet. Once we were dating then his fantasies turned to other women, ladies he worked with. It was covered up with "gentleman politeness" but these women consumed his thought. He was seeking out IMing with other women, anything where he had the opportunity to speak to or be around another woman. At first I thought there was something wrong with me. I could not understand why he wasn't attracted to me. I would dress to attract. I kept myself fit, I was shaowing interest in him. I was the one initiating sex 85%+ of the time and yet he was wanting the attention of other women. Years past like this and I became so hurt. We talked numerous times and there was always an excuse. We went to counseling several times. He told the counselor that he thought this was typical male behavior. It didn't seem to even phase him that I was hurt by it. He was emotionally distant, wanted to be consumed by his own interests and after 24 years of marriage I finally walked away realizing that it would never be any different. I realized he had serious issues that even a counselor could not help with.

If I tried to talk to a friend about this they could not imagine as they seemed to be having the opposite issues, their husband wouldn't stop pestering. I am glad he didn't pster but showing interest in other women and no interest in me drove me away. I have read about the passiv-aggressive male and he fits the description perfectly.


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## anonmd

I was not acting a certain way to prove a point. I gave up after years of being priority 11 on a list of 10 and withdrew from the battle field. What I wanted was obvious. 

Who's on first? She could have asked. Anyway, hindsight is 20/20. Yes, I should have instigated repetitive giant arguments about it but I didn't, mistake #1. I figured I'd be patient and supportive, mistake #2.


----------



## Faithful Wife

anonmd said:


> I was not acting a certain way to prove a point. I gave up after years of being priority 11 on a list of 10 and withdrew from the battle field. What I wanted was obvious.
> 
> Who's on first? She could have asked. Anyway, hindsight is 20/20. Yes, I should have instigated repetitive giant arguments about it but I didn't, mistake #1. I figured I'd be patient and supportive, mistake #2.


Yes, it seems that if a D is going to be the final result, it is best to push the issue often and early...so that less time can be wasted. I'm sure you would do it much differently if you had to do it again.

But still...I just thought it was odd that you would kind of admonish the ladies with a "if you aren't talking about it, you may not know what is going on in his mind" and then gave us an example of when you did the same thing without talking to her about it. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## anonmd

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, it seems that if a D is going to be the final result, it is best to push the issue often and early...so that less time can be wasted. I'm sure you would do it much differently if you had to do it again.
> 
> But still...I just thought it was odd that you would kind of admonish the ladies with a "if you aren't talking about it, you may not know what is going on in his mind" and then gave us an example of when you did the same thing without talking to her about it. Hope that makes sense.


Yes, it makes sense. 

Two things, I know for a fact that what she had running around in her head was wrong after some conversations years later and two - it is not completely fair to expect a 35-40 and even a little older guy under the influence of testosterone poisoning to think and talk like a women, in many cases you are going to need to bridge that gap and drag things out of him. It is much easier @ 50+. Still not easy though. I couldn't do it at 40


----------



## Faithful Wife

anonmd said:


> Yes, it makes sense.
> 
> Two things, I know for a fact that what she had running around in her head was wrong after some conversations years later and two - it is not completely fair to expect a 35-40 and even a little older guy under the influence of testosterone poisoning to think and talk like a women, in many cases you are going to need to bridge that gap and drag things out of him. It is much easier @ 50+. Still not easy though. I couldn't do it at 40


Right. I think most of us women get that, by now. And it was actually not fair (or maybe wise is a better way to say it) for us as younger women to think our younger male partners can talk things out in the same way we can (speaking only generally here, because plenty of women can 't talk anything out, either).

But sadly, even though we finally do get it now, we can't force a man to talk. Therefore, if he is withholding sex for some conscious reason, but he is unwilling or unable to talk it out with us (even considering that by this point he may have already tried talking many times), then we as their women are partners are (reverse pun intended) screwed. We may have been a large part of the "why" of his withholding, and yes he may have told us that he was unhappy before now, but as you said straight up.....we may never really know what is in his mind. 

Because he won't tell us.

I totally understand and acknowledge that this exact scenario happens with genders reversed.

I think the lesson here is....if one or both of you is crap at honest communication, you may be doomed from the start.


----------



## anonmd

Add in the what ifs, what if I had turned away, rejected her, that would have been making a point . Cheated? What if she'd dragged out 8 or 9 months to a year or two. 

Not sure how that would have worked out. We stumble on.


----------



## MEM2020

This was one area M2 and I had brutally honest communication.

In hindsight - I'd do it way softer - but at the time I was very blunt: Meet my needs or I will outsource.

In one sense - delivery style aside - M2 respected this. She was ok with the message - but disliked the tone. I don't blame her. Given a do over - I would have used a much different delivery style. 





Faithful Wife said:


> Right. I think most of us women get that, by now. And it was actually not fair (or maybe wise is a better way to say it) for us as younger women to think our younger male partners can talk things out in the same way we can (speaking only generally here, because plenty of women can 't talk anything out, either).
> 
> But sadly, even though we finally do get it now, we can't force a man to talk. Therefore, if he is withholding sex for some conscious reason, but he is unwilling or unable to talk it out with us (even considering that by this point he may have already tried talking many times), then we as their women are partners are (reverse pun intended) screwed. We may have been a large part of the "why" of his withholding, and yes he may have told us that he was unhappy before now, but as you said straight up.....we may never really know what is in his mind.
> 
> Because he won't tell us.
> 
> I totally understand and acknowledge that this exact scenario happens with genders reversed.
> 
> I think the lesson here is....if one or both of you is crap at honest communication, you may be doomed from the start.


----------



## MEM2020

There is no emotional need M2 has that I would feel 'safe' rejecting at a high rate. She is - emotionally stable - so the occasional rejection / disconnect is ok. 

I vividly recall a conversation 4-5 years ago where M2 pointed out that I was NOT making a good faith effort to spend quality time with her telephonically. Back then I was traveling more than 50% of the time. What I recall is her tone. Sharp, disapproving. This was a total 'no go' for her and she said so. 

I definitely recall feeling both fear and guilt. She was right, I was wrong. And I promptly adjusted my priorities. 





anonmd said:


> Add in the what ifs, what if I had turned away, rejected her, that would have been making a point . Cheated? What if she'd dragged out 8 or 9 months to a year or two.
> 
> Not sure how that would have worked out. We stumble on.


----------



## Faithful Wife

MEM2020 said:


> This was one area M2 and I had brutally honest communication.
> 
> In hindsight - I'd do it way softer - but at the time I was very blunt: Meet my needs or I will outsource.
> 
> In one sense - delivery style aside - M2 respected this. She was ok with the message - but disliked the tone. I don't blame her. Given a do over - I would have used a much different delivery style.


Excellent hindsight. A firm but completely convicted message is all that is necessary. It can still be kind and loving.


----------



## MrsHolland

Buddy400 said:


> Well, I'm almost certainly a LD male from the perspective of Low-T.
> 
> I like sex plenty, I'm interested in sex, but I just never had an overwhelming need to have it. Not enough testosterone.
> 
> This has had some advantages. I was never compelled my d!ck to make stupid decisions. If a woman wanted to withhold sex to gain power in the relationship, it didn't work; I could live without it. Getting sex never kept me in a relationship that wasn't good for me. The need for sex never compromised my ability to make good decisions.
> 
> But, when you don't have a lot of testosterone coursing through your system, erections don't just happen automatically. There are complications occasionally. This affects both partners. The man get worries about it which leads to performance anxiety and makes things worse. The woman has been taught that if the guy doesn't get an instant hard-on, then there's something wrong with her. It takes a lot of work to get past that crap and most relationships aren't good enough to accomplish it.
> 
> The problem is that sex is an important part of a relationship and you can't really have a worthwhile relationship without it. Beyond the bonding that it encourages, there's the fact that many (I'd think most) women need to feel that their guy desires them sexually (whether or not they're responsive), it's very important to their self image (I think a lot of guys have been taught to expect that their wives won't desire them sexually, so it's not such a shock).
> 
> Knowing, after the first experience or two, that sex could be problematic for me, I didn't enter relationships easily. This limited my "options" (which turned out to be another benefit, as it left me available for my wife).
> 
> So, after a couple of failed marriages (sex probably played a significant part in the ending of the first, but looking back we had no business being married in the first place, the second wife was just insane). I met my wife of 27 years.
> 
> She's not necessarily HD, but she was smart enough to know how important sex was to a marriage (as did I) and wouldn't let it disappear. If it had been more than a week, she'd call it out and suggest that we needed to get it on. Everything other than sex was fantastic (and the sex was pretty good). When we had problems she wanted me to take actions to address them.
> 
> The difference between me most every LD man or woman on this site is that I cared about my relationship and my wife's happiness and so I *did* do everything I could to address the problem. In addition to seeing doctors, etc this included having the courage to keep entering the game even though I was aware that I might not perform as well as I'd like. It would have been very easy to withdraw, not discuss it and blame it on my wife. But, I'm not an a$$hole, it would have be very cruel and unfair to my wife and it would have destroyed the marriage. For my wife's part she's always been very loving and supportive. If she'd handled it the wrong way (complaining about performance, etc) it never would have worked. We'd married in our early thirties and she'd figured out from experience that there was more she needed from a man than a ready hard-on. As a result, we've never been sexless, the sex has been always good and, at times, spectacular. She claims that she's having the best orgasms of her life. We are exceptionally happily married.
> 
> Although I'm probably LD, I always sympathize with the HD's when the LD just refuses to address the issue. I'm particularly annoyed when the HD says how great the marriage is in other respects and how they still love them.
> 
> If the LD loved you, cared about the relationship and cared about your happiness, they'd do something about it.
> 
> If they don't, then they don't love you, they don't care about your happiness or they are too selfish to notice that you're unhappy.
> 
> If someone claims to love you but that "love" doesn't result in anything positive happening for you, I'm not sure that kind of love is worth much.


Wow that is such an insightful post, thank you for taking the time. Your last few sentences I really agree with and this highlights why my first marriage ended. I still believe that if he had of shown some action to address the issues then we would have remained married even with the HD/LD mismatch. Inaction is as painful as rejection. The inaction ended up making me angry which I got past very quickly as that was about him and his weaknesses, the rejection caused a lot of baggage that took some time (and the love of a great men) to recover from.

Wishing you well


----------



## notmyrealname4

Buddy400 said:


> But, when you don't have a lot of testosterone coursing through your system, erections don't just happen automatically. There are complications occasionally.
> 
> 
> Knowing, after the first experience or two, that sex could be problematic for me, I didn't enter relationships easily.


I'm female, so very ignorant about how men get physically turned on.

I've asked my husband questions over the years; he gives very vague answers.

When I, a woman, get physically aroused my entire vulva feels swollen, sensitive and "good", especially the clitoris (obviously).

And the inside of my vagina feels "good" too; in a heavy, achy empty sort of way. 

Now, isn't the male equivalent of what I described having your penis fill with blood---an erection, that feels good?

Can you explain why that doesn't happen when you are turned on?

Okay, [dumb example], your wife and you are kissing, she opens up her blouse----at this point are you neither turned on or erect?

Please forgive me, Buddy, if this is insensitive or rude. I don't mean it to be. I'm curious how it works with a hetero guy who is with a woman he is attracted to; but doesn't necessarily get an erection with. Especially since this has been your natural way of being since you were young.

Another way of saying it is, I know when my body is aroused. Because of female anatomy, I can be penetrated without being aroused; but I'm not going to have an orgasm.

Do you feel aroused; but it doesn't translate to getting an erection?


----------



## Holdingontoit

AVR1962 said:


> I am coming in way late on this discussion. I am recently divorced, was with my husband for 27 years. When we met he did not approach me for sex. We were both in our late 20's and every guy I had dated was eager so my thought at the time was that it was sure nice to finally meet a gentleman, someone that wasn't all over me. I also noticed that he really didn't show interest in me and that I was seeking him out more than him seeking me and I asked if he was actually interested. We talked about why he had not approached me sexually and his response was that he didn't know I was interested. Assured me that he was interested in me but it was always me going to him.


This is a very common pattern. Woman is tired of being pestered and objectified and she finds a pleasant man who does not push for sex. It feels like a welcome relief. She has to chase him a little, which is a refreshing change. She thinks to herself "I have finally found THE ONE". In many cases, the guy turns out to be a LD who has little or no interest in sex with her. Much much later she realizes the downside of his lack of interest.

Here is the cruel truth: if you are female and you enjoy sex and want a sex life, then most likely you need to be with a man who sometimes wants sex when you don't. Who notices attractive women when they walk by. And who probably objectifies you to some extent. If you find a man who does none of these things, ever, then he is probably LD and you will not have a satisfying sex life with him over the long term.


----------



## MEM2020

Buddy,

This is the stuff that makes TAM great.




Buddy400 said:


> I didn't "know" that there was an issue. To the degree that there was a problem, it was that I simply couldn't be counted on to have "automatic", easy hard-ons every time. Since we had sex on the second date, there wouldn't have been much opportunity to discuss it ahead of time even if I'd known exactly what the situation was. She knew what she was getting into soon enough to take a pass if she'd wanted to.
> 
> Since she has subsequently said that she'd have married me even if I didn't have a penis (there are other ways to do the job), I'm guessing that she was of the opinion that I brought enough other stuff to the table to make it worth working through problems which she might have avoided with another man.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Tone is the icing. The message is the cake. Yes, it is great if you can deliver honest unpleasant message with a pleasant tone. But in the end the manner is close to irrelevant. What matters is how the recipient responds to the underlying message. If the recipient focuses only on the tone and ignores the underlying message, successful resolution of the problem is unlikely. Yes, Mem could have said "ask me nicely and I am happy to call you more often". But if he said "because you asked in a tone I dislike, I am not going to call you at all" then they have a major problem even if Mem was correct that M2's tone was impolite.

Yes, there are more or less polite ways of saying "you need to put out more or I'm outta here". But the crucial part of the reaction is whether the recipient of that message puts out more. Not agreeing on their preferred tone for complaining when they don't. The more they fight over the tone of requests, the more they are sending the message they have no intention of meeting your needs.


----------



## notmyrealname4

.


----------



## MEM2020

Ele,
I think it is worth drilling into the initiation/response dynamic. Because there is a red zone above a 50% rejection rate. 

Inside the red zone, the view gradually becomes: A high rate of rejection is fine, because the HD's feelings don't matter because the HD's needs aren't as important as the LD's. 

At risk of coming across as unromantic, my approach would be to take them through a decision tree. The branch points are actually simple.

1. Is the LD willing to move from a yes/no response pattern to a yes/can we connect tomorrow? type approach?
2. Is the LD willing to initiate themselves at least half the time?

If an LD responded with a 'no' to both those requests, my response would be: Those responses, when combined with our current rejection rate, don't really work for me. 

---------------
And for clarity, none of this precludes a frequency discussion. Perfectly healthy to ask an LD if they are ok with x times/week. 

But you have to be playful and firm if you want an answer that means anything. 

---------------
Below, I did a more fine grained breakdown of the initiation/response dynamic. 


I ALSO believe the following exchange creates clarity in these situations:

HD: I would far prefer you to put us off a day when you aren't really feeling it? How about tomorrow night? Comes across as very different than: not tonight

If an LD is good with this, that makes a big difference. If however they reply with: I'm not going to do that, it feels too much like scheduled sex, and I don't schedule sex....


Both the initiation and response have a mechanical component, a tone and an intensity level. 

Mechanics: Words or touch used
Tone: Playful or serious or edgy or needy

The initiation and response intensity feel enough different to separate. 

Initiation
Intensity: This ranges from lower to higher:
- Do YOU want to? 
- It would be nice if we...
- I would like to
- I am 'taking' you

Response Intensity:
- Enthusiastic YES
- Acceptance 
- Mild but firm resistance
- Aggressive NO

-----------






Faithful Wife said:


> Excellent hindsight. A firm but completely convicted message is all that is necessary. It can still be kind and loving.


----------



## AVR1962

uhtred said:


> This can be tricky - balancing talking an pestering. Some time ago, after years of her dismissing my desires, I told my wife exactly what I wanted in sex, what things, how often, etc. I haven't said anything since then, but have stopped actively asking for sex.
> 
> In the past I would ask more frequently, and give more general descriptions of what I would like (which were ignored).
> 
> I don't know where the dividing line is. Is it passive aggressive for me not to give her the same information again? After a month? a year?


My question here would be if you talk about any other needs or interests with your wife. I think when the man's focus is over and again sex the woman gets to feeling that all she means to her husband is sex. She probably ignored you for this very reason and didn't feel it was worth even talking about.


----------



## notmyrealname4

@MEM2020


Sometimes I get the feeling that you are on the verge of exploding with frustration.

But you use logic and reason to make your feelings more palatable to yourself.

That's fine. It's probably wise for the most part.

But I hope you "get it all out" every once in a while. And if it can't be sexually, then through some kind of intense exercise. Or primal screaming.

You sound super self-controlled.


----------



## Cletus

MEM2020 said:


> This was one area M2 and I had brutally honest communication.
> 
> In hindsight - I'd do it way softer - but at the time I was very blunt: Meet my needs or I will outsource.
> 
> In one sense - delivery style aside - M2 respected this. She was ok with the message - but disliked the tone. I don't blame her. Given a do over - I would have used a much different delivery style.


The effectiveness of this approach is contingent on one very important thing - the ability of your spouse to make the necessary changes. Congratulations on having one who was receptive to the message and able to change. 

If your spouse is simply being complacent, absent minded, perhaps a little selfish, or just clueless, you can shake them out of their bad habits by delivering such an ultimatum, even with a soft delivery. If however your spouse is not meeting your needs because he or she cannot through some combination of aversion, sexual style, and personality, then of course you have to be prepared to call your own bluff or re-evaluate your needs. 

This is the position I have been in for the course of my marriage. Rather than divorce, I chose option 'B'. As an unexpected side effect, my own sexual interest has dropped, enough so that we have hardly any friction any longer over sex. The more popular option here in TAM is to try by any means available to raise your partner's sexual level. It's the first question asked by a huge number of posters. There are other solutions, which should not be used by those who cannot tolerate the outcome, and which may land your marriage here in the "sex starved wife" column.


----------



## EleGirl

Holdingontoit said:


> This is a very common pattern. Woman is tired of being pestered and objectified and she finds a pleasant man who does not push for sex. It feels like a welcome relief. She has to chase him a little, which is a refreshing change. She thinks to herself "I have finally found THE ONE". In many cases, the guy turns out to be a LD who has little or no interest in sex with her. Much much later she realizes the downside of his lack of interest.
> 
> Here is the cruel truth: if you are female and you enjoy sex and want a sex life, then most likely you need to be with a man who sometimes wants sex when you don't. Who notices attractive women when they walk by. And who probably objectifies you to some extent. If you find a man who does none of these things, ever, then he is probably LD and you will not have a satisfying sex life with him over the long term.


I really not sure who common this is with women.

My bet is that in most marriages where the husband ends up choosing to make the marriage sexless, he fit the description you give in your second paragraph while dating and probably at the start of the marriage. It was later that he withdrew sexually. In most of the cases, it seems to be that he wants sex, just not with his wife. In many of the cases he is getting sex either by cheating or using porn.


----------



## farsidejunky

AVR1962 said:


> My question here would be if you talk about any other needs or interests with your wife. I think when the man's focus is over and again sex the woman gets to feeling that all she means to her husband is sex. She probably ignored you for this very reason and didn't feel it was worth even talking about.


This should absolutely be taken into account, as long as the response to the initiation of the sex conversation is honest, and it is addressed prior to moving into the conversation about the other partners needs. 

When a response to a calm discussion on sexual frequency and rejection is met with an immediate "what about my needs", gaslighting, or minimizing, then the answer is no. There is a stark difference in hearing ones partners concerns and then bringing up ones own, versus the passive aggressive method of "saving up your grievances" and then letting them loose as a diversion or to justify ones reasons for dismissing needs.


----------



## EleGirl

MEM2020 said:


> Ele,
> I think it is worth drilling into the initiation/response dynamic. Because there is a red zone above a 50% rejection rate.
> 
> Inside the red zone, the view gradually becomes: A high rate of rejection is fine, because the HD's feelings don't matter because the HD's needs aren't as important as the LD's.
> 
> At risk of coming across as unromantic, my approach would be to take them through a decision tree. The branch points are actually simple.
> 
> 1. Is the LD willing to move from a yes/no response pattern to a yes/can we connect tomorrow? type approach?
> 2. Is the LD willing to initiate themselves at least half the time?
> 
> If an LD responded with a 'no' to both those requests, my response would be: Those responses, when combined with our current rejection rate, don't really work for me.
> 
> ---------------
> And for clarity, none of this precludes a frequency discussion. Perfectly healthy to ask an LD if they are ok with x times/week.
> 
> But you have to be playful and firm if you want an answer that means anything.
> 
> ---------------
> Below, I did a more fine grained breakdown of the initiation/response dynamic.
> 
> 
> I ALSO believe the following exchange creates clarity in these situations:
> 
> HD: I would far prefer you to put us off a day when you aren't really feeling it? How about tomorrow night? Comes across as very different than: not tonight
> 
> If an LD is good with this, that makes a big difference. If however they reply with: I'm not going to do that, it feels too much like scheduled sex, and I don't schedule sex....
> 
> 
> Both the initiation and response have a mechanical component, a tone and an intensity level.
> 
> Mechanics: Words or touch used
> Tone: Playful or serious or edgy or needy
> 
> The initiation and response intensity feel enough different to separate.
> 
> Initiation
> Intensity: This ranges from lower to higher:
> - Do YOU want to?
> - It would be nice if we...
> - I would like to
> - I am 'taking' you
> 
> Response Intensity:
> - Enthusiastic YES
> - Acceptance
> - Mild but firm resistance
> - Aggressive NO
> 
> -----------


This is something that a person might want to look at.... what is their approach, whether they are HD or LD. It could improve the frequency of sex and the interactions between the two people under some circumstances. Now to determine which circumstances it would work for.

There are cases in which none of that would work. The "hardcore" withholder who has no intention of having sex with their spouse. They could care less what their spouse wants, feels, etc.


----------



## AVR1962

Holdingontoit said:


> This is a very common pattern. Woman is tired of being pestered and objectified and she finds a pleasant man who does not push for sex. It feels like a welcome relief. She has to chase him a little, which is a refreshing change. She thinks to herself "I have finally found THE ONE". In many cases, the guy turns out to be a LD who has little or no interest in sex with her. Much much later she realizes the downside of his lack of interest.
> 
> Here is the cruel truth: if you are female and you enjoy sex and want a sex life, then most likely you need to be with a man who sometimes wants sex when you don't. Who notices attractive women when they walk by. And who probably objectifies you to some extent. If you find a man who does none of these things, ever, then he is probably LD and you will not have a satisfying sex life with him over the long term.


I do not believe my ex's situation had anything to do with low drive. Initially I thought it was the case, and yes I did like being able to not be hassled. In the beginning it made me feel like I meant more to him than just someone to have sex with. He showed his good side as we all do when dating. We were able to talk thru issues and I saw a man who was willing to work thru the hard stuff together. We got married it is was like night and day. He told me to deal with issues myself and then didn't support my decisions. It was in our first year of marriage he had his first emotionally affair. I realized she wasn't interested in him for more than just friendship but he was seeking her out trying to spend time with her. I asked him why and he said he liked that she would laugh at his jokes, he has a real odd sense of humor but he was getting attention from her and that's what he wanted from these women. The man is not an attractive type and he knows that women are not attracted to him for his looks so he uses wit and humor to lure them in.

One of our counselors felt his addiction to porn had started as a teen, feeling rejected from girls before he even attempted to ask them out and that was where all the fantasy behavior started. He said that normally when this type of behavior starts it is almost impossible to change.

He told me as a teen in high school he would see a girl and really like her but wouldn't ask her out. Then he would see her with some other guy and be crushed.

He had been married before. The marriage last 4 years. He married her because she was pg but it was basically a result of a 21 year old man (my ex) sneaking into his 16 year old girlfriend's house and having fun and an oops was created. They quickly had 2 children and instead of coming home at night or calling to let her know he would be running late he would stop off at the bar and rink with the guys and then complain about her not working to help with the bills. She finally started going out with her girlfriends like he had been doing with his friends and he became suspicious and jealous and started investigating. He told her to be home by a certain time one night and she wasn't so he locked her out and would not allow her in the house. He then filed for divorce claiming he thought she was having an affair but had no proof of it and filed for custody of their 2 children when she said that she would support her sons with child support from him. He was NOT going to pay her a dime! He never asked her if she was having an affair, just up and divorced her because she didn't do as he had demanded of her to come home at a certain time and it made him mad.

He did the very same crap with me. I danced one time with his boss who had asked me. Husband was not the dancing type. He was there. Husband walked out.

You see he could run around and check out the babes and do whatever he pleased and his wife is supposed to be there waiting for him with open arms. You hurt him or do not please him though and you become the target of his anger and he has to get even. he has to hurt you. The man is very vindictive. he would not communicate, you had to guess and even if you guessed it right he still would not come clean and talk or try to work things out with you. That was all show in the beginning, something I have no doubt he pulls with every girl he tries to interest...."such a gentleman, look how wonderful I am." This man has serious issues!

He relates to women not as people but as objects. Objects to satisfy his needs and please him. Women equate sex to this man. Women are a walking pair of boobs and he wants that walking pair of boobs to pet his ego by laughing at his jokes. I think it was the only way he felt wanted.

after writing my reply to this thread yesterday I thought how sick and twisted our relationship was and yet I stayed. I know the reasons I stayed and I know many other people staying in unhappy relationships for whatever reason. We adjust to the weirdness of the relationship and we learn to accept what we cannot change. We focus in other places of our lives so we don't have to face the hurt of the twisted parts of our relationship and we try to act like nothing is wrong. We push those hurt feeling to the very back because reliving them just hurts even more and we live in almost this state of denial, and for what? To keep our children from hurting? To have a roof over our head? To keep from paying child support or alimony? 

I am now nearly 54 years old and I feel like my youth and my honest hard working integrity was wasted to a man who never cared. Sure I learned lessons along the way but I sure wish I would have made wiser choices earlier. Now I see what is available for single men and it is really ugly. I have taken care of myself, watch my health and grooming. The men I have seen my age have really let themselves go. I don't much like the thought of never loving again as the past 27 years with this man I felt it was not a mutual love and I can say I was never sure that he really loved me. Reflecting, I am not sure how we even actually got married. He was military hot for an overseas assignment. I think he wanted a mom for the sons he had custody of and I was all too willing to take it all on so I think on his part it was more of an agreement rather than love itself.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Cletus said:


> * As an unexpected side effect, my own sexual interest has dropped,* enough so that we have hardly any friction any longer over sex. The more popular option here in TAM is to try by any means available to raise your partner's sexual level. It's the first question asked by a huge number of posters. * There are other solutions, which should not be used by those who cannot tolerate the outcome, and which may land your marriage here in the "sex starved wife" column*.



You're right, it is an unexpected side-effect: the waning of your own sex drive after years of disinterest from your spouse.

But, through personal experience and from reading about others here at TAM; it is not *unusual*. I actually think it is *usual*.

Let's say that you learned to speak French when you were in high school. And you went to Montreal for a summer, and you spoke French at home with a relative who was French-Canadian.

But then that relative dies or moves away. You start getting fewer and fewer opportunities to speak French. Everything else in your life is conducted in English; so over the years the French gets rusty---and at some point, useless.

"Use it or lose it"

--------------------------

As to your last sentence, which I bolded, what does that mean?


----------



## farsidejunky

I am M/HD. My wife is LD with a huge level of responsive desire.

I would tell you that my rejection rate is probably 5% when I communicate to my wife sometime before lunch that I want a bedroom date. This is done in a variety of ways, such as during physical contact, text, or phone. Most of the time she will say anything from "hell yes" to "um, maybe". The maybes are about 60/40 slanted towards acceptance. When the "maybe" becomes a "no", she will normally tell me right when I arrive home from work/working out. I never initiate near bed time anymore. If I were to resume that, I would probably have a rejection rate closer to 30% or more. 

This method has also had an impact on me, although I am not sure if it is correlation or causation. In 2013-2015, I was incredibly HD. I could have gone twice a day. Since initiating this way, my drive has dropped considerably, hence the M/HD in the opening sentence.

I don't know if this will help the situation here, but I felt it relevant given the discussion on how/when sex is initiated.


----------



## AVR1962

notmyrealname4 said:


> But in AVR1962's case, her husband did notice other attractive women (the co-worker), and he was a slave to porn, so he certainly had a sex drive and objectified women.
> 
> It doesn't make any sense. Why marry AVR?
> 
> It makes sense only in the Madonna/Wh0re scenario. You have the sweet, womanly mother type; and the exciting, sl.tty type. "And never the twain shall meet."


He was military and had not served a remote assignment and knew that was a possibility. He had sole custody of two small boys. I showed my interest in him as well as provided care for his sons and I think more than anything it was a situation where he saw opportunity for him. Had he been sent remote he would have had to leave his sons with his ex and I know he did not want that. I was convenient. I was the care-giver type who was far to eager to try to blend two families. I had been divorced for 2 years when we met and had been very hurt with the divorce from my first husband, my high school sweetheart who had cheated on me and decided he was in love with his affair lady and left. I had felt my family had been torn away from me and so I was like the mother hen taking in her chicks and trying to get "my" family back by blending the two. He had children, I had children and I think in both of our minds there was a priority to seek a mate to help us each raise our children but there was not enough focus on the other issues that created the demise in the marriage.


----------



## uhtred

There is no way to really know what others feel because words are not sufficiently well defined. I can try to answer for me: (again sorry for the explicitness)

Erection and arousal are related, but do not always happen together. 

Sometimes in the morning I wake up with an erection, but no mental arousal. Its more of an annoyance than anything else. I'd be happy to have sex, but no more so than at any other time.

Sometimes after I've had an O during sex, and I'm pleasing my wife in some way, I'll get mentally aroused again, but its too soon for me to have another erection. The mental arousal and desire for sex is there, but not the physical response.

Most of the time though, mental arousal results in an erection. Of course as I get older, this response gets slower / weaker, but its still there.









notmyrealname4 said:


> I'm female, so very ignorant about how men get physically turned on.
> 
> I've asked my husband questions over the years; he gives very vague answers.
> 
> When I, a woman, get physically aroused my entire vulva feels swollen, sensitive and "good", especially the clitoris (obviously).
> 
> And the inside of my vagina feels "good" too; in a heavy, achy empty sort of way.
> 
> Now, isn't the male equivalent of what I described having your penis fill with blood---an erection, that feels good?
> 
> Can you explain why that doesn't happen when you are turned on?
> 
> Okay, [dumb example], your wife and you are kissing, she opens up her blouse----at this point are you neither turned on or erect?
> 
> Please forgive me, Buddy, if this is insensitive or rude. I don't mean it to be. I'm curious how it works with a hetero guy who is with a woman he is attracted to; but doesn't necessarily get an erection with. Especially since this has been your natural way of being since you were young.
> 
> Another way of saying it is, I know when my body is aroused. Because of female anatomy, I can be penetrated without being aroused; but I'm not going to have an orgasm.
> 
> Do you feel aroused; but it doesn't translate to getting an erection?


----------



## CharlieParker

farsidejunky said:


> I would tell you that my rejection rate is probably 5% when I communicate to my wife sometime before lunch that I want a bedroom date. This is done in a variety of ways, such as during physical contact, text, or phone.


We are very similar. After the hormones left the building she has said she liked to know in advance in order to prepare herself (mentally). That used to piss me off, which would create conflict which of course isn't conducive to getting laid. TAM thought me it's not uncommon, so another thank you. 

Her maybes mean at the very least she is down to join me and provide the eye candy while I self service. That very often that leads to her joining in some manner.


----------



## MEM2020

NotMy,

I don't feel frustrated. I'd say M2 gets maybe 40-50 percent of my sexual energy. She is WILLING to do more. I mostly skip the 'willing' and enjoy the time she she is 'wanting'. 

That has nothing to do with the raw mechanics of the experience. She always makes it great for me. 

It just feels a lot better when we BOTH rapture. 

My advice is intended to make it harder for a LD/ND partner to gaslight you. Maybe why it comes across confrontational. 





notmyrealname4 said:


> @MEM2020
> 
> 
> Sometimes I get the feeling that you are on the verge of exploding with frustration.
> 
> But you use logic and reason to make your feelings more palatable to yourself.
> 
> That's fine. It's probably wise for the most part.
> 
> But I hope you "get it all out" every once in a while. And if it can't be sexually, then through some kind of intense exercise. Or primal screaming.
> 
> You sound super self-controlled.


----------



## notmyrealname4

uhtred said:


> Erection and arousal are related, but do not always happen together.
> 
> Sometimes in the morning I wake up with an erection, but no mental arousal. Its more of an annoyance than anything else. I'd be happy to have sex, but no more so than at any other time.
> 
> Sometimes after I've had an O during sex, and I'm pleasing my wife in some way, I'll get mentally aroused again, but its too soon for me to have another erection. The mental arousal and desire for sex is there, but not the physical response.
> 
> Most of the time though, mental arousal results in an erection. Of course as I get older, this response gets slower / weaker, but its still there.



Okay, I don't think I've ever had arousal be one without the other. I think, though, my arousal is almost completely physical.

That's a good point. Morning erections are just physical: unless you've been having an erotic dream. But I think I did read that they are due to cycles of testosterone. And you *could* have sex; even if you chose not to.

I don't understand mental arousal without physical accompaniment. So having a penis is different that way.

It seems to me (in my ignorance, I guess) that if you are seeing something sexy, or having sexy thoughts---you'd get aroused. But the male body doesn't work that way if you've _recently_ had an orgasm. I guess I didn't really know that.

Your response and arousal is probably also weakening because you don't have sex as much as you would like.

Thanks for your honesty.:smile2:


----------



## notmyrealname4

MEM2020 said:


> NotMy,
> 
> 
> 
> My advice is intended to make it harder for a LD/ND partner to gaslight you. Maybe why it comes across confrontational.


You don't sound confrontational at all; in fact, almost the opposite.

You sound like you put a lot of energy into being considerate and reasonable.

Which is great; unless it's masking frustration.

What do I know? Not too much. But when I get uber frustrated; I don't try to be logical about my husband and I's situation. Understanding and kindness for him, mostly, yes. But not to the point where I don't just feel what I'm feeling, and I allow myself to indulge in _some_ self-pity. After all, who understands our need for sympathy better than ourselves?


----------



## Holdingontoit

farsidejunky said:


> This method has also had an impact on me, although I am not sure if it is correlation or causation. In 2013-2015, I was incredibly HD. I could have gone twice a day. Since initiating this way, my drive has dropped considerably, hence the M/HD in the opening sentence.


I think your experience is not unusual.

When you are getting turned down 30% of the time because you don't know better than to initiate at night when you are in bed together, then you are continually hungry and you want to gorge because you don't know when your next meal will occur. After your wife gives you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, you are not as starving but still hungry and anxious so you wouldn't mind another sandwich right away.

When you have sex 95% of the time because you have wised up about when and how to ask, you are less hungry and much less anxious. So the part of your hunger that was driven by anxiety is gone. And the level of your physical hunger is lower because you get fed regularly. Now when your wife gives you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, you are satisfied and you don't need to eat again for a while.


----------



## Buddy400

Holdingontoit said:


> This is a very common pattern. Woman is tired of being pestered and objectified and she finds a pleasant man who does not push for sex. It feels like a welcome relief. She has to chase him a little, which is a refreshing change. She thinks to herself "I have finally found THE ONE". In many cases, the guy turns out to be a LD who has little or no interest in sex with her. Much much later she realizes the downside of his lack of interest.
> 
> Here is the cruel truth: if you are female and you enjoy sex and want a sex life, then most likely you need to be with a man who sometimes wants sex when you don't. Who notices attractive women when they walk by. And who probably objectifies you to some extent. If you find a man who does none of these things, ever, then he is probably LD and you will not have a satisfying sex life with him over the long term.


QFT

And yet, the current cultural imperative tells women they should enjoy sex and want a sex life while, at the same time, telling them that men in the second category are pigs. 

Either refuse sex when you don't want it, insist that your man never notice other "hot" women or objectifies you and live with the fact that he isn't just gong to be overcome with desire and "take you". 

Or not. 

You can't have both.


----------



## Faithful Wife

notmyrealname4 said:


> I don't understand mental arousal without physical accompaniment. So having a penis is different that way.


I have a lot more mental arousal than physical arousal. And I prefer mental over physical arousal. Typically, having mental arousal is what will trigger me having physical arousal, but not always. Sometimes I need to be touched somehow to also have physical arousal. 

I basically never experience physical arousal without mental arousal first. But to be honest...I'm kind of mentally aroused all the time so.....when physical arousal occurs, I have always recently been mentally aroused.

When I have a strong surge of mental and physical arousal all at once, as when starting to kiss my man and knowing we are going to move into foreplay, that's the best. I love that feeling. What a rush. Chick wood. Girl boner. There are some funny ones, but no good terms to describe that feeling.


----------



## MEM2020

NotMy,
90% of the dumb stuff I have done in life was due to being angry. Why I try to minimize my interactions with other folks when I am mad. 

I do make an effort to handle difficult stuff using a 'diplomat grade' style. The reason for that is - it FORCES the other person to deal with the ISSUE. They can't change the focus to the delivery style.

There's nothing worse than - being the injured party - and the other person is playing the delivery angle via: I cannot BELIEVE you aren't talking to me like this.

It's also worth keeping the big picture in mind. In terms of compatibility M2 and I are:
- Companionship : 9
- Non sexual touch: 9
- Sex : 6 (for me that's due to frequency, for her that's due to - ummm - my lack of ferocity)

When we were younger - during our first decade - we had sex almost every day. 

That younger version of me - aggressive, needy - I am not that fond of him.







notmyrealname4 said:


> You don't sound confrontational at all; in fact, almost the opposite.
> 
> You sound like you put a lot of energy into being considerate and reasonable.
> 
> Which is great; unless it's masking frustration.
> 
> What do I know? Not too much. But when I get uber frustrated; I don't try to be logical about my husband and I's situation. Understanding and kindness for him, mostly, yes. But not to the point where I don't just feel what I'm feeling, and I allow myself to indulge in _some_ self-pity. After all, who understands our need for sympathy better than ourselves?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Holdingontoit said:


> This is a very common pattern. Woman is tired of being pestered and objectified and she finds a pleasant man who does not push for sex. It feels like a welcome relief. She has to chase him a little, which is a refreshing change. She thinks to herself "I have finally found THE ONE". In many cases, the guy turns out to be a LD who has little or no interest in sex with her. Much much later she realizes the downside of his lack of interest.
> 
> *Here is the cruel truth: if you are female and you enjoy sex and want a sex life, then most likely you need to be with a man who sometimes wants sex when you don't. Who notices attractive women when they walk by. And who probably objectifies you to some extent. If you find a man who does none of these things, ever, then he is probably LD and you will not have a satisfying sex life with him over the long term*.


I don't think this is cruel truth, it is just logical.

The same applies to women....if a man is HD by nature and will only be happy with an HD woman, then he is going to need to find a woman who is a sexual being...she might be a little flirty, or she might notice hot guys a lot more often than some women. She might enjoy a fair amount of porn. She might have slept with some men before you and (gasp) truly enjoyed it. She might have enjoyed someone other than you objectifying her a few times. She might be very aware of the sexual attention coming toward her from other men noticing her and may even revel in that feeling the same way a man might revel in taking a good look at a beautiful woman.

Again, it is just logical, and it goes both ways. Highly sexual people tend to have these things in common.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> QFT
> 
> And yet, the current cultural imperative tells women they should enjoy sex and want a sex life while, at the same time, *telling them that men in the second category are pigs*.
> 
> .


It is true that our culture tries to paint the second category as pigs....and it also tries to paint HD women as sl*ts. But real self-aware HD men and women don't view the other gender this way. We know it is just how us HD people are and those who try to paint us in a negative light just don't get us, and that's ok. That's why you date among your own kind. And that's how we end up having a great HD/HD connection and sex life.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Faithful Wife said:


> The same applies to women....if a man is HD by nature and will only be happy with an HD woman, then he is going to need to find a woman who is a sexual being...she might be a little flirty, or she might notice hot guys a lot more often than some women. She might enjoy a fair amount of porn. She might have slept with some men before you and (gasp) truly enjoyed it. She might have enjoyed someone other than you objectifying her a few times. She might be very aware of the sexual attention coming toward her from other men noticing her and may even revel in that feeling the same way a man might revel in taking a good look at a beautiful woman.
> 
> Again, it is just logical, and it goes both ways. Highly sexual people tend to have these things in common.


I totally agree. That was why I was happy when my wife admitted she had plenty of experience before we got married.

Too bad she neglected to explain most of it was bad. And the parts that were good were with men she had no interest in marrying. And the part that was with me was not part of the good part.


----------



## EleGirl

Holdingontoit said:


> This is a very common pattern. Woman is tired of being pestered and objectified and she finds a pleasant man who does not push for sex. It feels like a welcome relief. She has to chase him a little, which is a refreshing change. She thinks to herself "I have finally found THE ONE". In many cases, the guy turns out to be a LD who has little or no interest in sex with her. Much much later she realizes the downside of his lack of interest.
> 
> Here is the cruel truth: if you are female and you enjoy sex and want a sex life, then most likely you need to be with a man who sometimes wants sex when you don't. Who notices attractive women when they walk by. And who probably objectifies you to some extent. If you find a man who does none of these things, ever, then he is probably LD and you will not have a satisfying sex life with him over the long term.





Buddy400 said:


> QFT
> 
> And yet, the current cultural imperative tells women they should enjoy sex and want a sex life while, at the same time, telling them that men in the second category are pigs.
> 
> Either refuse sex when you don't want it, insist that your man never notice other "hot" women or objectifies you and live with the fact that he isn't just gong to be overcome with desire and "take you".
> 
> Or not.
> 
> You can't have both.


I think that there are not two polar opposite types of men--men who are LD or even asexual vs men who are "pigs".

There is a long continuum between those two points.

Somewhere between them are men who, while having an appreciation for hot women but who do not openly act this out showing disrespect to their wife. Some couples are even able to playfully accept the fact that many men appreciate looking at hot women and many women appreciate looking at hot men. 

In the place between the two polar opposites are also men who do not objectify their wife to the point that they only see their wife as the means for sex. There are men who can actually have a relationship with a women and care about her for things other than sex and still have a very good sex life.

It does not take a man being a brutish, objectifying womanizer for he and his wife to have a good sex life.


----------



## anonmd

notmyrealname4 said:


> I don't understand mental arousal without physical accompaniment. So having a penis is different that way.
> 
> It seems to me (in my ignorance, I guess) that if you are seeing something sexy, or having sexy thoughts---you'd get aroused. But the male body doesn't work that way if you've _recently_ had an orgasm. I guess I didn't really know that./QUOTE]
> 
> It'd be pretty hard to walk around many days if the mental and physical were linked that tightly .


----------



## Buddy400

notmyrealname4 said:


> I'm female, so very ignorant about how men get physically turned on.
> 
> I've asked my husband questions over the years; he gives very vague answers.
> 
> When I, a woman, get physically aroused my entire vulva feels swollen, sensitive and "good", especially the clitoris (obviously).
> 
> And the inside of my vagina feels "good" too; in a heavy, achy empty sort of way.
> 
> Now, isn't the male equivalent of what I described having your penis fill with blood---an erection, that feels good?
> 
> Can you explain why that doesn't happen when you are turned on?
> 
> Okay, [dumb example], your wife and you are kissing, she opens up her blouse----at this point are you neither turned on or erect?
> 
> Please forgive me, Buddy, if this is insensitive or rude. I don't mean it to be. I'm curious how it works with a hetero guy who is with a woman he is attracted to; but doesn't necessarily get an erection with. Especially since this has been your natural way of being since you were young.
> 
> Another way of saying it is, I know when my body is aroused. Because of female anatomy, I can be penetrated without being aroused; but I'm not going to have an orgasm.
> 
> Do you feel aroused; but it doesn't translate to getting an erection?


There's arousal, and the blood starts pumping. It's just a question of if it's enough blood to allow the level of erectness to achieve penetration. That's why Viagra needs desire to work. Without desire, the pump is turned off. With desire, the pump s turned on and the Viagra makes it more efficient.

If you're loaded with testosterone, then the pump is working at a high capacity. Everything's working so well that nothing is going to get in the way. If there's less testosterone, then the pump isn't working as efficiently and little disturbances are more likely to have a negative effect.

As a woman you may be aroused and begin to have PIV, let's say you're at 100% arousal. Somehow your mind wanders to wondering if your husband is noticing that you've gained a of couple of pounds and your arousal drops to 50%. Sex doesn't stop immediately. You've got a chance to regroup and get your arousal back where it was. 

For a guy who needed almost every bit of that 100% arousal to get a full erection, a temporary drop in arousal means that sex stops. Everybody notices, there's no hiding it. You just fumbled the ball and forward progress stops until you can get the ball back. On top of that, when you get the ball back, you now get to worry about fumbling it again which just adds to the distraction. 

To answer your "I'm kissing my wife, she opens her blouse...." scenario. Yes, I'm turned on and "working" on an erection that could disappear at any minute.

To be clear, most of the time things work out just fine. I'm a good lover who brings a lot of things to the table (compensation?). My wife claims to be having the best orgasms of her life. But when things don't work out for a time or two, my mind starts fvcking with me and I have to work pretty hard to get out of the slump and get things back on track. 

One thing I can say is that my level of attraction to my wife isn't accurately measured by the stiffness of my erection. So for anyone hearing that "it isn't you", it's probably true.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@EleGirl: I never suggested there was not a spectrum. I did suggest, and do believe, that some women initially view a man who is far toward the sexless end of the spectrum as being an unconditional "good thing" compared to the overwhelmingly piggish behavior she may have experienced from most men before that encounter. However, I think many of these women discover that there is such a thing as a man being too far toward the LD end of the spectrum, and the women find they don't like this any more than they like men to far toward to piggish end of the spectrum.


----------



## Buddy400

MEM2020 said:


> That younger version of me - aggressive, needy - I am not that fond of him.


But is M2 fond of him?

Or has she benefited enough from the older version of you that she's willing to let go of the younger version?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Holdingontoit said:


> @EleGirl: I never suggested there was not a spectrum. I did suggest, and do believe, that some women initially view a man who is far toward the sexless end of the spectrum as being an unconditional "good thing" compared to the overwhelmingly piggish behavior she may have experienced from most men before that encounter. However, I think many of these women discover that there is such a thing as a man being too far toward the LD end of the spectrum, and the women find they don't like this any more than they like men to far toward to piggish end of the spectrum.


On the beginning of this thread, I mentioned several women I know who are in sexless marriages. One of them fits this description.

She is a very sexual woman but she has some baggage and had never been with a guy who was just a sincere and decent man but also highly sexual. Instead, she was married to a real creepo, who was highly sexual but weirdly into himself, not her. They had a lot of sex but she said it was always completely disconnected and she felt like just a warm hole to him. They divorced for this and other reasons.

She waited years to date again because she didn't trust herself on who to pick. When she did date, at first a sexual wolf got ahold of her and although he was at least a better and courteous lover, she still felt like she was only a sex object to him and broke it off.

Then she started praying and wishing for a man who "didn't want sex". In her mind, what she really meant was, a man who didn't see her as ONLY a sexual outlet for himself but who loved her for much more than this. But in the state she was in, the way she worded it was that she wanted a man who "didn't want sex".

She met and married such a man. At first he seemed the perfect wonderful gentleman who "wasn't after her for sex". She felt she must have met "the one". Within a year though, she realized that yes he did certainly love her for the wonderful qualities she possessed other than being sexually attractive....at the same time, he didn't seem to notice she was sexually attractive at all, and never initiated sex.

She began the long process most who are in sexless marriages end up going through....the pain, the agony, the "why oh why", the attempt to entice them and the humiliation when it doesn't work, the regrets for ignoring the red flags, the what was I thinkings....all of that. And she ended up where most others are: in a sexual wasteland with no way out except divorce, which she is not willing to do because they have a young child. (Though I should point out she is capable of supporting herself and the child, it is not financial reasons that she is staying).

When she looks back at the woman she was when she prayed for a man who "didn't want sex", she now realizes she just wanted a normal and happy sex life. But coming from the crappy marriage she was in, she THOUGHT she wanted someone who "didn't see her that way at all". To her, this meant a man who only saw her enormous heart and THIS is where they would connect and be sexual from. 

But instead...she got what she actually prayed for. A man who doesn't want sex. Period. He is a sexless man.

His LD seems to be the result of several things....

he's overweight, probably low T

he is insecure about his body and his skills

he has PE, causing further performance anxiety

he knows he "should" be a different sort of man and he "should" want his wife that way, so he beats himself up about this, but that actually makes it all worse, not better

he is low energy in general, of course much worse due to being overweight

he has a crap diet and a stressful job

- - - - -

When they have had knock down blow outs over the lack of sex and she is about to leave him....he steps up for a few weeks. Then nothing. I think at this point they haven't had sex in over a year.


----------



## Fozzy

Faithful Wife said:


> On the beginning of this thread, I mentioned several women I know who are in sexless marriages. One of them fits this description.
> 
> She is a very sexual woman but she has some baggage and had never been with a guy who was just a sincere and decent man but also highly sexual. Instead, she was married to a real creepo, who was highly sexual but weirdly into himself, not her. They had a lot of sex but she said it was always completely disconnected and she felt like just a warm hole to him. They divorced for this and other reasons.
> 
> She waited years to date again because she didn't trust herself on who to pick. When she did date, at first a sexual wolf got ahold of her and although he was at least a better and courteous lover, she still felt like she was only a sex object to him and broke it off.
> 
> Then she started praying and wishing for a man who "didn't want sex". In her mind, what she really meant was, a man who didn't see her as ONLY a sexual outlet for himself but who loved her for much more than this. But in the state she was in, the way she worded it was that she wanted a man who "didn't want sex".
> 
> She met and married such a man. At first he seemed the perfect wonderful gentleman who "wasn't after her for sex". She felt she must have met "the one". Within a year though, she realized that yes he did certainly love her for the wonderful qualities she possessed other than being sexually attractive....at the same time, he didn't seem to notice she was sexually attractive at all, and never initiated sex.
> 
> She began the long process most who are in sexless marriages end up going through....the pain, the agony, the "why oh why", the attempt to entice them and the humiliation when it doesn't work, the regrets for ignoring the red flags, the what was I thinkings....all of that. And she ended up where most others are: in a sexual wasteland with no way out except divorce, which she is not willing to do because they have a young child. (Though I should point out she is capable of supporting herself and the child, it is not financial reasons that she is staying).
> 
> When she looks back at the woman she was when she prayed for a man who "didn't want sex", she now realizes she just wanted a normal and happy sex life. But coming from the crappy marriage she was in, she THOUGHT she wanted someone who "didn't see her that way at all". To her, this meant a man who only saw her enormous heart and THIS is where they would connect and be sexual from.
> 
> But instead...she got what she actually prayed for. A man who doesn't want sex. Period. He is a sexless man.
> 
> His LD seems to be the result of several things....
> 
> he's overweight, probably low T
> 
> he is insecure about his body and his skills
> 
> he has PE, causing further performance anxiety
> 
> he knows he "should" be a different sort of man and he "should" want his wife that way, so he beats himself up about this, but that actually makes it all worse, not better
> 
> he is low energy in general, of course much worse due to being overweight
> 
> he has a crap diet and a stressful job
> 
> - - - - -
> 
> When they have had knock down blow outs over the lack of sex and she is about to leave him....he steps up for a few weeks. Then nothing. I think at this point they haven't had sex in over a year.


I liked this, but I don't really like it. It's a sad like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

While M2 is not HD, she does like sex and absolutely would not tolerate a sexless marriage. Her boyfriend before me was a flight attendant who was either very low drive or gay. 

That said, she pulled off the most amazing compartmentalization routine with me. 

She basically said: we can have sex pretty much daily BUT when we aren't having sex I won't tolerate a constant sexual vibe created by groping, pawing, innuendo, crude comments, leering etc. 

So I totally desexualized our 'off the mattres' interactions. She loved being touched, hugged etc. And she responded - she melts into the full body's hug. From the front or back - same insta-melt reaction. But it isn't really a sexual response. Just a happy one. 

And sure I look at other women. But not when we are together.




Holdingontoit said:


> This is a very common pattern. Woman is tired of being pestered and objectified and she finds a pleasant man who does not push for sex. It feels like a welcome relief. She has to chase him a little, which is a refreshing change. She thinks to herself "I have finally found THE ONE". In many cases, the guy turns out to be a LD who has little or no interest in sex with her. Much much later she realizes the downside of his lack of interest.
> 
> Here is the cruel truth: if you are female and you enjoy sex and want a sex life, then most likely you need to be with a man who sometimes wants sex when you don't. Who notices attractive women when they walk by. And who probably objectifies you to some extent. If you find a man who does none of these things, ever, then he is probably LD and you will not have a satisfying sex life with him over the long term.


----------



## MEM2020

M2 doesn't really do resentment. Besides that aggression had its pluses.




Buddy400 said:


> But is M2 fond of him?
> 
> Or has she benefited enough from the older version of you that she's willing to let go of the younger version?


----------



## EleGirl

Holdingontoit said:


> @EleGirl: I never suggested there was not a spectrum. I did suggest, and do believe, that some women initially view a man who is far toward the sexless end of the spectrum as being an unconditional "good thing" compared to the overwhelmingly piggish behavior she may have experienced from most men before that encounter. However, I think many of these women discover that there is such a thing as a man being too far toward the LD end of the spectrum, and the women find they don't like this any more than they like men to far toward to piggish end of the spectrum.


Right after I graduated high school I went out with a guy a couple of times (don't recall his name, but I remember him). There was something off. One night after a date we were in my living room and he was going on about how sex was basically yuk. I don't know if he thought I wanted to hear that or if he really was saying what he believed. After he left, my father came in and said "You don't want that one." I laughed and told him that I agree. Never went out with the guy again. He was clearly not a very sexual person.. not interested.

I have no idea how many women mistakenly go for LD guys thinking that it's a good thing. But my bet is that it's pretty low. Most women are pretty sexual so I think most look for sexual guys.

It reminds me a bit of the guys who marry 'good girl'... meaning prudish, LD women. They are impressed with her 'virtue'. But then once married they expect her to turn into a porn-star-like lover.


----------



## CharlieParker

Was it weird that your father could overhear the conversation?


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## MEM2020

Ele,
My advice to navigating this type situation - sort of looks like this. 

If your partner refuses to communicate about a broken sex life - accept that you won't have a sex life with that person and keep or kill the relationship with that acceptance in mind. 

I agree cheating is VERY COMMON - in marriages where the male is LD provided we define cheating as: Meeting most of your sexual needs without engaging your spouse. Affairs, porn addictions - etc. 

That is a Tier 1 betrayal in my opinion. 

I also believe - you can tell when a partner cares about you.







EleGirl said:


> Right after I graduated high school I went out with a guy a couple of times (don't recall his name, but I remember him). There was something off. One night after a date we were in my living room and he was going on about how sex was basically yuk. I don't know if he thought I wanted to hear that or if he really was saying what he believed. After he left, my father came in and said "You don't want that one." I laughed and told him that I agree. Never went out with the guy again. He was clearly not a very sexual person.. not interested.
> 
> I have no idea how many women mistakenly go for LD guys thinking that it's a good thing. But my bet is that it's pretty low. Most women are pretty sexual so I think most look for sexual guys.
> 
> It reminds me a bit of the guys who marry 'good girl'... meaning prudish, LD women. They are impressed with her 'virtue'. But then once married they expect her to turn into a porn-star-like lover.


----------



## scatty

Hmmmm...I have a bit of a different situation. My husband is disabled, and although not unable to have sex, he has his limits. Some days are off limits, most positions are a no go. We got down to sex every few months and I was like "ummm...no..." unless you are in a wheelchair with no working fingers or tongue- this won't work for me." So the thing that worked is that I don't expect, I just drive him wild and whatever happens, happens! This has worked out so well for us. I can finish myself off, he can finish me off with his awesome skills, or we can masturbate together. I do miss him on top though.


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## EleGirl

CharlieParker said:


> Was it weird that your father could overhear the conversation?


No it was not weird.

It was late at night and the lights were turned of in the rest of the house. The guy and I were talking in the living room. The way the house was, there was no door on the living room where the guy and I were seated. So a person going down the hall into the kitchen could pass unseen but hear everything being said. My dad had gotten up to get water. He was probably concerned because I had been out late, so him waking up for water was probably an excuse to check.


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## Holdingontoit

MEM2020 said:


> I also believe - you can tell when a partner cares about you.


I agree. Lately H2 has been much more affectionate. She says she always felt this way about me, she just was unable to show it. I call BS. I think she did not feel this way until she got cancer and they chopped her boobs off and I cared for her during recovery and I continue to tell her how beautiful she is. Same frequency and intensity as I did before. I think as a young and healthy and curvy female with long lustrous hair she took compliments and male attention for granted. I think as a middle aged woman with wrinkles and short hair and small boobs and lots of scars, she finally realizes that having a man who looks at you in an adoring manner all the time is not a given. 

I like her current attitude and behavior. It is what I always wanted from "my girl" and have never had before in my life. Still, not sure I will ever let go of the resentment enough to truly enjoy it. I feel like Charlie Brown if Lucy ever let him kick the football. Might be fun. But the next time I run toward the ball, I am still on the lookout that she might pull it away at the last second. So I can never relax and really take a full swing at the ball. Because that would mean making myself vulnerable to her. And I have no intention of ever allowing that to happen. No matter how much joy it costs me.


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## TamaraJane

Hi Everyone

I am new to this forum and have joined to find ways to improve my relationship with my husband. I am in a completely sexless relationship. In fact we are now on 14 months of No action. I have spent months and years crying quietly to myself wondering what it is that I have done wrong. I absolutely adore my husband but we are two completely different people and deal with things in different manners. He is unfortunately quite passive aggressive and a punisher of note and I know that he withholds physically affection as a means to get back at me. I have tried in vain to meet his exceptions but he always seems to move the goal post. He often says things to me such as "What have you don't to deserve a kiss?" " What have you don't to deserve a hug" I want to make him happy but I just don't now how. I can't help but wonder if he is having an affair as I simply just do not do it for him. Do you call it quits? Do you work harder? Do you try do more? We have two beautiful young girls and I really want to make this work. Any suggestions?

I am quite a bit younger than him but sex was never a problem in the beginning. Both of us are actually HD people. I am lucky is a get a half arsed peck on a good day let alone a proper kiss. I have tried flirting with him, I have tried being naked around him ( which I know effects him as he well um goes and finishes himself off) But he just does not want sex with me. I love sex and I want it. I am at the point now where I catch myself looking at other guys and wondering " I wonder if he enjoys sex" I feel rotten for having these thoughts! I find my husband attractive and often express that I am feeling horny etc. He just tells me to dream on. What is a girl supposed to do!


----------



## Holdingontoit

What is a girl to do? File for divorce.


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## EllisRedding

TamaraJane said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> I am new to this forum and have joined to find ways to improve my relationship with my husband. I am in a completely sexless relationship. In fact we are now on 14 months of No action. I have spent months and years crying quietly to myself wondering what it is that I have done wrong. I absolutely adore my husband but we are two completely different people and deal with things in different manners. He is unfortunately quite passive aggressive and a punisher of note and I know that he withholds physically affection as a means to get back at me. I have tried in vain to meet his exceptions but he always seems to move the goal post. He often says things to me such as "What have you don't to deserve a kiss?" " What have you don't to deserve a hug" I want to make him happy but I just don't now how. I can't help but wonder if he is having an affair as I simply just do not do it for him. Do you call it quits? Do you work harder? Do you try do more? We have two beautiful young girls and I really want to make this work. Any suggestions?
> 
> I am quite a bit younger than him but sex was never a problem in the beginning. Both of us are actually HD people. I am lucky is a get a half arsed peck on a good day let alone a proper kiss. *I have tried flirting with him, I have tried being naked around him ( which I know effects him as he well um goes and finishes himself off)* But he just does not want sex with me. I love sex and I want it. I am at the point now where I catch myself looking at other guys and wondering " I wonder if he enjoys sex" I feel rotten for having these thoughts! I find my husband attractive and often express that I am feeling horny etc. He just tells me to dream on. What is a girl supposed to do!


Your H sounds abusive. The bolded is particularly disturbing and really just serves as him trying to manipulate you.

Have you gone to marriage counseling? Have you discussed any of this with him?


----------



## sixty-eight

Holdingontoit said:


> I agree. Lately H2 has been much more affectionate. She says she always felt this way about me, she just was unable to show it. I call BS. I think she did not feel this way until she got cancer and they chopped her boobs off and I cared for her during recovery and I continue to tell her how beautiful she is. Same frequency and intensity as I did before. I think as a young and healthy and curvy female with long lustrous hair she took compliments and male attention for granted. I think as a middle aged woman with wrinkles and short hair and small boobs and lots of scars, she finally realizes that having a man who looks at you in an adoring manner all the time is not a given.
> 
> *I like her current attitude and behavior. It is what I always wanted from "my girl" and have never had before in my life. Still, not sure I will ever let go of the resentment enough to truly enjoy it. I feel like Charlie Brown if Lucy ever let him kick the football. Might be fun. But the next time I run toward the ball, I am still on the lookout that she might pull it away at the last second. So I can never relax and really take a full swing at the ball. Because that would mean making myself vulnerable to her. And I have no intention of ever allowing that to happen. No matter how much joy it costs me.*[/


I don't "like" this.
But i can certainly relate to it.


----------



## uhtred

Very likely you have done nothing wrong. When did his avoidance of sex start? 

Its very strange that he gets aroused seeing you naked then takes care of himself. Is he harboring some deep resentment of you for some reason (valid or not)?





TamaraJane said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> I am new to this forum and have joined to find ways to improve my relationship with my husband. I am in a completely sexless relationship. In fact we are now on 14 months of No action. I have spent months and years crying quietly to myself wondering what it is that I have done wrong. I absolutely adore my husband but we are two completely different people and deal with things in different manners. He is unfortunately quite passive aggressive and a punisher of note and I know that he withholds physically affection as a means to get back at me. I have tried in vain to meet his exceptions but he always seems to move the goal post. He often says things to me such as "What have you don't to deserve a kiss?" " What have you don't to deserve a hug" I want to make him happy but I just don't now how. I can't help but wonder if he is having an affair as I simply just do not do it for him. Do you call it quits? Do you work harder? Do you try do more? We have two beautiful young girls and I really want to make this work. Any suggestions?
> 
> I am quite a bit younger than him but sex was never a problem in the beginning. Both of us are actually HD people. I am lucky is a get a half arsed peck on a good day let alone a proper kiss. I have tried flirting with him, I have tried being naked around him ( which I know effects him as he well um goes and finishes himself off) But he just does not want sex with me. I love sex and I want it. I am at the point now where I catch myself looking at other guys and wondering " I wonder if he enjoys sex" I feel rotten for having these thoughts! I find my husband attractive and often express that I am feeling horny etc. He just tells me to dream on. What is a girl supposed to do!


----------



## sixty-eight

TamaraJane said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> I am new to this forum and have joined to find ways to improve my relationship with my husband. I am in a completely sexless relationship. In fact we are now on 14 months of No action. *I have spent months and years crying quietly to myself wondering what it is that I have done wrong.* I absolutely adore my husband but we are two completely different people and deal with things in different manners. He is unfortunately quite* passive aggressive and a punisher of note* and I know that he* withholds physically affection as a means to get back at me.* I have tried in vain to meet his exceptions but he always seems to *move the goal post*. He often says things to me such as "*What have you don't to deserve a kiss?" " What have you don't to deserve a hug"* I want to make him happy but I just don't now how. I can't help but wonder if he is having an affair as I simply just do not do it for him. Do you call it quits? Do you work harder? Do you try do more? We have two beautiful young girls and I really want to make this work. Any suggestions?
> 
> I am quite a bit younger than him but *sex was never a problem in the beginning*. Both of us are actually HD people. I am lucky is a get a half arsed peck on a good day let alone a proper kiss. I have tried flirting with him, I have tried being naked around him ( which I know effects him as he well um goes and finishes himself off) But he just does not want sex with me. I love sex and I want it. I am at the point now where I catch myself looking at other guys and wondering " I wonder if he enjoys sex" I feel rotten for having these thoughts! *I find my husband attractive and often express that I am feeling horny etc. He just tells me to dream on.* What is a girl supposed to do!





EllisRedding said:


> Your H sounds abusive. The bolded is particularly disturbing and really just serves as him trying to manipulate you.
> 
> Have you gone to marriage counseling? Have you discussed any of this with him?


That IS abuse. Very much so. No marriage counseling for abusers, he already hears what she wants and uses it against her. Individual counseling for both of you.

Normal HD people are not fine with no sex for no significant reason. He knows you want it, and withholds to punish you. He moves the goal posts on purpose because he likes to watch you twist in the wind trying to fix things. He bait and switched you with HD sex in the beginning, and then stopped when you were invested.

I bolded all the red flags for abuse. Please go here for more advice: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/319418-abuse-thread.html


----------



## AVR1962

TamaraJane said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> I am new to this forum and have joined to find ways to improve my relationship with my husband. I am in a completely sexless relationship. In fact we are now on 14 months of No action. I have spent months and years crying quietly to myself wondering what it is that I have done wrong. I absolutely adore my husband but we are two completely different people and deal with things in different manners. He is unfortunately quite passive aggressive and a punisher of note and I know that he withholds physically affection as a means to get back at me. I have tried in vain to meet his exceptions but he always seems to move the goal post. He often says things to me such as "What have you don't to deserve a kiss?" " What have you don't to deserve a hug" I want to make him happy but I just don't now how. I can't help but wonder if he is having an affair as I simply just do not do it for him. Do you call it quits? Do you work harder? Do you try do more? We have two beautiful young girls and I really want to make this work. Any suggestions?
> 
> I am quite a bit younger than him but sex was never a problem in the beginning. Both of us are actually HD people. I am lucky is a get a half arsed peck on a good day let alone a proper kiss. I have tried flirting with him, I have tried being naked around him ( which I know effects him as he well um goes and finishes himself off) But he just does not want sex with me. I love sex and I want it. I am at the point now where I catch myself looking at other guys and wondering " I wonder if he enjoys sex" I feel rotten for having these thoughts! I find my husband attractive and often express that I am feeling horny etc. He just tells me to dream on. What is a girl supposed to do!


TamaraJane, I was married to a passive-aggressive man for 24 years. The PA man has a very different thought process which you are well aware. Your attempts of trying to lure your husband and his reactions are much of my own experience as well. The PA man has to be in control, not just of you, but of everything. More than likely this is not the only area of your lives together that he has to have subtle control over. It will be his way or no way but you have to guess how to please him? Sound familiar? Even if you guess it (whatever the situation) right he will still not acknowledge it leaving you in this state of confusion. The PA cannot commit to you, you are his whipping post. He has to have someone to pass his blame onto and throw under the bus to escape accountability himself. He comes off to others as being this sweet gentleman, he does not get into debates and seems very easy-going. Friends rarely see the inner workings of the PA. It takes years of living one to figure them out.

If you have not read the book, "Living with the Passive Aggressive Man" by Scott Wetzler I highly suggest it. This book became my bible in understanding my exhusband. It took me years to figure out he was never going to change. Parts of his personality were very pleasant but he had underlying issues that I could not at first (and for many years) quite figure out until I read this book.

Here is a quote form the book: ".....the womanizing passive-aggressive man is obsessed with newness, not love. For him, each conquest holds out renewed hope for building up his sense of self, the affirmation that he's a man that women desire. And so it's conquest he is after.......The womanizer is only interested in arousal. His relationships are primarily physical and demanding to his partner. Any woman who says yes to him is devalued, she is there for the sport and nothing else. Commitment is not a word that comes easily to his mind and brings a smile to his lips. If he is able to go beyond sex and actually make an effort to have a relationship , it will be a struggle for him to stay involved. He's unavailable and disappointing as the submissive lover. before you know it, he's on the lookout for a new woman, and a renewal of his sense of self."

PA men are unable to separate intimacy and sex. Women represent sex to them but you, as his wife, have to pay for anything you have done to offend him and he will with hold from you because he deems it justifiable in his thinking that you must pay for hurting him, even though you are clueless what you have done to hurt him. So he will ignore you and even possibly flaunt in your face how he is going about "His" life without you, showing you he does not need you when deep inside he wants that connection that he just cannot make the steps to get close. Getting close for him is scary. So he lives in this limbo state of mind, concentrating on his needs and what he wants. You are basically there for the ride and to accept the blame he passes your way.

My ex could see that he was passive-aggressive. He read the book and he saw himself in the book but when it actually came to getting help he could not stop the cycle of his behavior, it was so ingrained. I tried to change my reaction and it still reverted back to his way of doing things. Life with him was very lonely, frustrating and hurtful.

Like you, I used to dress in lingerie, dress up sexy to try to get his attention. In the early years before we were married the crudest comments would come out of his mouth. Stuff like a jr high kid would say, it really turned me off. His interests in other women were obvious but I was not so sure he wanted me for anything but sex, or a drinking buddy (he is an alcoholic). He did not want other men to see me dressed up with any kind of cleavage and it seemed to me he was very jealous of any kind of attention other men would pay me but he would not admit. It was almost like he was blaming me. I do not dress to lure attention from other men and I am not a busty woman.

His go-to was porn, loved to look up naked TV & movie stars on the internet, had to have that lady at work laughing at his jokes and sought that out, he would become infatuated with these women at work and peruse them in some way, he was always on the look-out for other women. We could go into a restaurant or a airport terminal and his eyes would start hunting down the women. He would see one of two that he found appealing and then his eyes would keep going back to her, to a point where he was not there with me, it was awful!

As a newlywed he and I had been together over three years and 85%+ I was the initiator of sex. He did initiate but it was generally when I was sick, the middle of the night, while I was asleep, that sort of thing. No "I love yous", no romance. One night I initiated as usual and he turned me down but the way he did it I thought there was more to this. this was not a man with low desire. So the next day I asked him what it was all about. He told me he wanted me to know what it felt like to be turned down. He seemed angry. You see he always felt rejected by girls. He grew up knowing in his mind that girls only wanted friendship so as a teen he was lustful from a distance but never asked the girls out. Any attempts to talk to them was thru humor. He turned to porn early on as it was safe and basically all of the mind-set was in place and was never to change. I could not reassure him or make him feel safe like the no effort fantasy of the beautiful porn woman in the magazines or on the internet. 

I finally gave up and left. I knew I was not going to find happiness in the marriage and I felt I had tried in every way to make things better for us both.

Personally, I feel if a woman really wants to stay with their PA husband the only thing you can do is try to enjoy life for yourself as a basically single woman inside the marriage. For years I searched for solutions and help and I found over and over again that the women could not make a difference and they either left or stayed and were miserable.

He will not change and that is more than likely what you are holding out hope for. You can focus on his good points like I did but this will always be there.


----------



## AVR1962

sixty-eight said:


> That IS abuse. Very much so. No marriage counseling for abusers, he already hears what she wants and uses it against her. Individual counseling for both of you.
> 
> Normal HD people are not fine with no sex for no significant reason. He knows you want it, and withholds to punish you. He moves the goal posts on purpose because he likes to watch you twist in the wind trying to fix things. He bait and switched you with HD sex in the beginning, and then stopped when you were invested.
> 
> I bolded all the red flags for abuse. Please go here for more advice: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/319418-abuse-thread.html


Yes, living with a PA man is a subtle abuse. Not always easily recognizable until you have lived with, or are married, to one.


----------



## MEM2020

Holding,

That's really difficult. I do believe - if asked - you should say what's true. Not in the harsh manner below - more along the lines of: 

For most of the marriage you made it clear you weren't attracted to me, and in general weren't that 'into me'. You treated me a lot better after you got sick, and that's nice. But I don't really trust you and resent that you had to get cancer to feel towards me the way I've always felt towards you. And that's why - I have declined - when you have signaled you would 'let me' have sex with you.

That my man is what we call TrueSpeech around here. It's clear, concise and solely driven by the desire to be understood.

It connects behavior (hers) to feelings (yours) and wraps up with how that gets expressed in behaviors (yours).







Holdingontoit said:


> I agree. Lately H2 has been much more affectionate. She says she always felt this way about me, she just was unable to show it. I call BS. I think she did not feel this way until she got cancer and they chopped her boobs off and I cared for her during recovery and I continue to tell her how beautiful she is. Same frequency and intensity as I did before. I think as a young and healthy and curvy female with long lustrous hair she took compliments and male attention for granted. I think as a middle aged woman with wrinkles and short hair and small boobs and lots of scars, she finally realizes that having a man who looks at you in an adoring manner all the time is not a given.
> 
> I like her current attitude and behavior. It is what I always wanted from "my girl" and have never had before in my life. Still, not sure I will ever let go of the resentment enough to truly enjoy it. I feel like Charlie Brown if Lucy ever let him kick the football. Might be fun. But the next time I run toward the ball, I am still on the lookout that she might pull it away at the last second. So I can never relax and really take a full swing at the ball. Because that would mean making myself vulnerable to her. And I have no intention of ever allowing that to happen. No matter how much joy it costs me.


----------



## sixty-eight

AVR1962 said:


> Yes, living with a PA man is a subtle abuse. Not always easily recognizable until you have lived with, or are married, to one.


I was with an abuser for 9 years. He would withhold sex, but didn't typically look at porn or masturbate. If he did those things, he went to EXTREME lengths to hide it from me. Like, he would have to be jerking off in the busy bathroom at work in the middle of dinner rush.

he would move the goal posts and blame it on me. I was working too much, then i wasn't working enough, then i wasn't taking the children on enough outings, then i was gone too much and wasn't keeping the house OCD clean, and then once he even said that he would be open to more sex, but the fact that I was on birth control was a turn off etc. etc. Every hoop that i jumped to improve our relationship, there would always be another one after that required me to completely change gears.

He loved to punish and often verbally abused me, as well as sometimes passive aggressive silent treatment, going out and leaving me at home with the kids often type things. In the very beginning he physically abused me as well.

So I see a lot of similarities between the two. The passive aggressive and the abuser. Both need to be in control of everything, including the sex. Whatever you say you want most, that typically is the thing they will make sure you never get. 
Their motivations are different. The abuser is a misogynist. They need a wife, like a beard. To have the happy family front for the world. They need to be in a relationship or have control over someone (a child, or a subordinate employee) to be a handy scapegoat for all their bad feelings.

with the abuser though, i didn't see a lot of other woman type stuff. abusers are very able to separate intimacy and sex, because intimacy is so scary to them. They can't hand over the control to you. If there is sex, there won't be intimacy. I never saw him looking at other women or acting jealous, and he never cared about what I was wearing. He took no interest in who i hung out with or where i was going unless it inconvenienced him in some way.



AVR1962 said:


> As a newlywed he and I had been together over three years and 85%+ I was the initiator of sex. He did initiate but it was generally when I was sick, the middle of the night, while I was asleep, that sort of thing. No "I love yous", no romance.


This ^ rang very true for me. He would go into periods where he would initiate, typically during periods where I was too tired to think about sex. Right after having a baby or after starting a new job. He would initiate only when he knew that i absolutely did not want sex. In the middle of making dinner, in the middle of the night, In the late morning with little kids waking up/wanting breakfast, in the middle of cleaning up dinner/putting the food away/hands in a sink full of dishes. On our way out the door. And by initiate, i mean, come up behind me and paw at me, or shaking me awake roughly and making sure that I could not go back to sleep. Once i regained my equilibrium and began reciprocating interest, then he would abruptly be declining and ignoring me again.


Edited to add:AVR i wanted to add that I really liked your post, and will be looking for that book. I found your take on that very interesting.


----------



## Wifeof20years

So I have to chime in and say a few things. I have been married 21 years, and over the past 5-7 years my husbands desires have diminished. I thought it was from are arguing. We went to marriage counseling (didn't work for us), and then went to Retroville - a marriage retreat. I was so happy that they talked about how important intimacy is because he kept making me think something was wrong with me for wanting it. He went to he doctors recently and had blood work done. His T Free was 142. He doesn't even think think about sex. He is drinking 5-8 beers a day, is over weight by 50 lbs, doesn't exercise, I think he is depressed. All of these things play in the LD I think. Anyone out there will a Husband whos levels are close to his? Anything fix it? He goes to endocrinologist in a month for first visit. I am really confused on how to react to low T and LD.


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## Lila

@TamaraJane question "What's a girl to do?" has me wondering why the same advice offered to men stuck in sexless marriages isn't offered to women, especially when divorce is not feasible. 

This month alone there were more women starting threads about their sexless marriages that men. The general advice to both was to communicate more, seek counseling, and start self-improvement/independence however the men in sexless marriages were also advised to ask for open marriages, announce the search for 'the replacement', and in one case, to cheat. Now we can all agree that forcing a partner to live in a sexless marriage is abuse but why are these options not given to women too? Is it because these types of threats work better on women that they do on men? Is it that women have a harder time making these suggestions to a spouse? Is it because sexless marriages suck the confidence out of them? I'm genuinely curious as I think what's good for the goose is good for the gander, but that's just my opinion.


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## Holdingontoit

Lila said:


> @TamaraJane question "What's a girl to do?" has me wondering why the same advice offered to men stuck in sexless marriages isn't offered to women, especially when divorce is not feasible.


I gave the same advice at the top of this page: what is a girl to do? File for divorce.

I give the same advice to women as to men when divorce is perceived not to be feasible: if you are not willing to divorce over it, do not expect to ever resolve it.

And the "default" advice to men is not divorce in the first instance. It is: hit the gym, rock things at work, listen to her, and address those of her complaints that seem reasonable to you. If that doesn't work, then think about destabilizing the relationship.


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## TamaraJane

Thank you all for the feedback. Unfortunately at this point in time Divorce is just not an option for me as we have two beautiful younger daughters. I would rather break my own heart than theirs for the time being.

@ AVR1962 - That sounds all too familiar although I have never had a problem with him looking at or flirting with other women. I don't find him to be a womenizer.

To be honest I just think Everything about me annoys my husband. He is calculated and controlled and tidy. I am unorganized, messy and quite outgoing. I had a chat to him this evening and told him how hurt I am about this intimacy thing. He had a fit about my duties as a housewife and about how I do not clean the house well enough and about being messy. We have a house keeper who comes 3 times a week, in between that I try and tidy as much as I can but often run out of time in the morning as I do most of the morning duties, Naturally the mess is all my fault - We wont talk about the fact that we have two kids. He never cooks, helps clean up or do dishes. I am also a full time working mommy.


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## uhtred

I understand and agree with your desire to do your best for your daughters. Consider though that they are learning about relationships from the terrible situation that you are in. They may well be better off with the disruption of a divorce if it is followed by the example of a loving relationship rather than an abusive one. 





TamaraJane said:


> Thank you all for the feedback. Unfortunately at this point in time Divorce is just not an option for me as we have two beautiful younger daughters. I would rather break my own heart than theirs for the time being.
> 
> @ AVR1962 - That sounds all too familiar although I have never had a problem with him looking at or flirting with other women. I don't find him to be a womenizer.
> 
> To be honest I just think Everything about me annoys my husband. He is calculated and controlled and tidy. I am unorganized, messy and quite outgoing. I had a chat to him this evening and told him how hurt I am about this intimacy thing. He had a fit about my duties as a housewife and about how I do not clean the house well enough and about being messy. We have a house keeper who comes 3 times a week, in between that I try and tidy as much as I can but often run out of time in the morning as I do most of the morning duties, Naturally the mess is all my fault - We wont talk about the fact that we have two kids. He never cooks, helps clean up or do dishes. I am also a full time working mommy.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TamaraJane said:


> Thank you all for the feedback. Unfortunately at this point in time Divorce is just not an option for me as we have two beautiful younger daughters. I would rather break my own heart than theirs for the time being.
> 
> @ AVR1962 - That sounds all too familiar although I have never had a problem with him looking at or flirting with other women. I don't find him to be a womenizer.
> 
> To be honest I just think Everything about me annoys my husband. He is calculated and controlled and tidy. I am unorganized, messy and quite outgoing. I had a chat to him this evening and told him how hurt I am about this intimacy thing. He had a fit about my duties as a housewife and about how I do not clean the house well enough and about being messy. We have a house keeper who comes 3 times a week, in between that I try and tidy as much as I can but often run out of time in the morning as I do most of the morning duties, Naturally the mess is all my fault - We wont talk about the fact that we have two kids. He never cooks, helps clean up or do dishes. I am also a full time working mommy.


Jeesh....you both work full time (meaning, not home during the day), you have a house cleaner 3 days a week, and somehow the house is STILL too dirty for him to want to have sex? :scratchhead:

I'm having trouble understanding how the house is dirty at all in these conditions.

However...the only point I have for this thread is that obviously there is more going on than a dirty house that is causing his LD. If he "had a fit" and blame shifted everything to you just because you brought up the lack of intimacy, I'm going to guess he has long standing resentment about something....(though whatever that something is, it may or may not be justified....if he's just a weird clean freak, no one in the world would live up to what he is wanting). And the resentment may not really even be toward you. He may resent the world or resent life or God if he feels he ended up not getting what he expected out of life.


----------



## Buddy400

Lila said:


> @TamaraJane question "What's a girl to do?" has me wondering why the same advice offered to men stuck in sexless marriages isn't offered to women, especially when divorce is not feasible.
> 
> This month alone there were more women starting threads about their sexless marriages that men. The general advice to both was to communicate more, seek counseling, and start self-improvement/independence however the men in sexless marriages were also advised to ask for open marriages, announce the search for 'the replacement', and in one case, to cheat. Now we can all agree that forcing a partner to live in a sexless marriage is abuse but why are these options not given to women too? Is it because these types of threats work better on women that they do on men? Is it that women have a harder time making these suggestions to a spouse? Is it because sexless marriages suck the confidence out of them? I'm genuinely curious as I think what's good for the goose is good for the gander, but that's just my opinion.[/QUOTE]
> 
> [QUOTE="Holdingontoit, post: 16794961, member: 35737"]I gave the same advice at the top of this page: what is a girl to do? File for divorce.
> 
> I give the same advice to women as to men when divorce is perceived not to be feasible: if you are not willing to divorce over it, do not expect to ever resolve it.
> 
> And the "default" advice to men is not divorce in the first instance. It is: hit the gym, rock things at work, listen to her, and address those of her complaints that seem reasonable to you. If that doesn't work, then think about destabilizing the relationship.[/QUOTE]
> 
> I'm guessing that this is a case of confirmation bias; where one looks at something and tends to find exactly what one was expecting to find. If you were expecting to find a double standard, then you note every time a woman was told to "just suck it up" or "be sexier" and every time a a man is told to "outsource". But, whenever the opposite occurs, it escapes one's notice.
> 
> I agree with [MENTION=35737]Holdingontoit (but then, being a guy, I suppose that's not surprising!). Most every post from a man to a man in a sexless relationship seems (to my eyes) to put it all on the man; giving advice along the lines Holding mentions.
> 
> I'd love to be rich enough to pay someone to do the conclusive study of TAM comments based on the gender of the poster and the commenter.
> 
> I'm sure I'd find out that there is no double standard.


----------



## sixty-eight

sixty-eight said:


> I was with an abuser for 9 years.
> 
> he would move the goal posts and blame it on me. I was working too much, then i wasn't working enough, then i wasn't taking the children on enough outings, then* i was gone too much and wasn't keeping the house OCD clean*, and then once he even said that he would be open to more sex, but the fact that I was on birth control was a turn off etc. etc. Every hoop that i jumped to improve our relationship, there would always be another one after that required me to completely change gears.





TamaraJane said:


> @ AVR1962 - That sounds all too familiar although I have never had a problem with him looking at or flirting with other women. I don't find him to be a womenizer.
> 
> To be honest I just think Everything about me annoys my husband. He is calculated and controlled and tidy. I am unorganized, messy and quite outgoing. I had a chat to him this evening and told him how hurt I am about this intimacy thing. He had a fit about my duties as a housewife and about how I do not clean the house well enough and about being messy. We have a house keeper who comes 3 times a week, in between that I try and tidy as much as I can but often run out of time in the morning as I do most of the morning duties, Naturally the mess is all my fault - We wont talk about the fact that we have two kids. He never cooks, helps clean up or do dishes. I am also a full time working mommy.


I totally called that. I quoted my post and bolded it. I never got sex because of "cleaning" too.

I bet he did have a fit. I bet he used that fit to avoid any talks of intimacy. Did you ever talk about why you are not having sex? Or did he turn it into a talk about how you are not doing a good enough job with the cleaning? That's called misdirection. Magicians use it. Look over here, so you don't see what i'm doing over there. And i'd bet that he never will help out around the house, not unless there is someone else around to see it and be impressed. That kind of menial work is for subservient women in an abusers eyes.

I bet if you had that house so clean that you could eat off the floors, then there would just be some other reason.

Seriously, hop over to the abuser thread. read this book Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men PM me if you can't get a copy without him knowing.


----------



## TamaraJane

sixty-eight said:


> I totally called that. I quoted my post and bolded it. I never got sex because of "cleaning" too.
> 
> I bet he did have a fit. I bet he used that fit to avoid any talks of intimacy. Did you ever talk about why you are not having sex? Or did he turn it into a talk about how you are not doing a good enough job with the cleaning? That's called misdirection. Magicians use it. Look over here, so you don't see what i'm doing over there. And i'd bet that he never will help out around the house, not unless there is someone else around to see it and be impressed. That kind of menial work is for subservient women in an abusers eyes.
> 
> I bet if you had that house so clean that you could eat off the floors, then there would just be some other reason.
> 
> Seriously, hop over to the abuser thread. read this book Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men PM me if you can't get a copy without him knowing.


Thank you, I will go have a look at that thread. He definitely changes the goal post. Dishes - I cook dinner and there are dishes or clothes the kids have changed out of. Its always something else though. When we first got together I would cook and clean like a mad thing as I was a stay at home mom then. I used to make lunch and drop it off for him at work etc None of which he remembers. Ironically he sits on the couch calling me a slob when I am trying to cook, entertain kids, bath kids etc. We had a huge blow up a few months ago because he calls me a slob the whole time. I am not a slob. I took a picture this morning and sent it to him of all the dishes etc in the kitchen - Not one was mine. Yet I am the slob because I haven't had time to pack them into the dishwasher or tidy up but he hasn't raised a finger?! 

He clearly does resent something - I am just not sure what. I'm honestly one of those people that seldom get angry. If I do I am angry for maybe 10 minutes and then over it. He can sulk and ignore me for WEEKS. 

Thanks all for the info though. I will go read the suggested stuff. At the end of the day I do still love my husband and would like to find ways to handle him. He was a bachelor for 20 years of his adult life ( and I know why!) so perhaps this is a process, perhaps I do just hold onto hope, I don't know. One thing is for certain though - I most certainly am not spending 10 years of my life doing this.


----------



## anonmd

Buddy400 said:


> I'm guessing that this is a case of confirmation bias; where one looks at something and tends to find exactly what one was expecting to find. If you were expecting to find a double standard, then you note every time a woman was told to "just suck it up" or "be sexier" and every time a a man is told to "outsource". But, whenever the opposite occurs, it escapes one's notice.
> 
> I agree with @Holdingontoit (but then, being a guy, I suppose that's not surprising!). Most every post from a man to a man in a sexless relationship seems (to my eyes) to put it all on the man; giving advice along the lines Holding mentions.
> 
> I'd love to be rich enough to pay someone to do the conclusive study of TAM comments based on the gender of the poster and the commenter.
> 
> I'm sure I'd find out that there is no double standard.


My thoughts are generally the first advice and the second, third, fifth and eighth are to hit the gym, meet her needs etc. etc., along with the implied or outright statement that surely you must be fat, balding and an insensitive slob . 

Sixth, seventh and ninth are well - you know, the only options are divorce, suffer or cheat. 

Now, it was established very early in this thread that any suggestion the women was fat, unattractive or lazy was not helpful and not allowed - which is fine. Of course line #2 after excluding those was along the lines of 'the husband chose for the marriage to be sexless and he's cheating at least 1/2 the time', so just be supportive. 

So, for frigid women it is the man's fault and for uninterested (can't think of an offensive term on this side, insert your own or offer suggestions :sleeping males it is the man's fault. Because you know, all women LOVE sex and she just doesn't want it with YOU. Well, as a guy who has a sex drive, all men love sex so I guess he just doesn't want sex with you! EXCEPT, maybe all men don't love sex that much...


----------



## MEM2020

TamaraJane,

Sometimes - when a man is avoiding sex - he invents reasons to be angry from his partner. 




TamaraJane said:


> Thank you, I will go have a look at that thread. He definitely changes the goal post. Dishes - I cook dinner and there are dishes or clothes the kids have changed out of. Its always something else though. When we first got together I would cook and clean like a mad thing as I was a stay at home mom then. I used to make lunch and drop it off for him at work etc None of which he remembers. Ironically he sits on the couch calling me a slob when I am trying to cook, entertain kids, bath kids etc. We had a huge blow up a few months ago because he calls me a slob the whole time. I am not a slob. I took a picture this morning and sent it to him of all the dishes etc in the kitchen - Not one was mine. Yet I am the slob because I haven't had time to pack them into the dishwasher or tidy up but he hasn't raised a finger?!
> 
> He clearly does resent something - I am just not sure what. I'm honestly one of those people that seldom get angry. If I do I am angry for maybe 10 minutes and then over it. He can sulk and ignore me for WEEKS.
> 
> Thanks all for the info though. I will go read the suggested stuff. At the end of the day I do still love my husband and would like to find ways to handle him. He was a bachelor for 20 years of his adult life ( and I know why!) so perhaps this is a process, perhaps I do just hold onto hope, I don't know. One thing is for certain though - I most certainly am not spending 10 years of my life doing this.


----------



## sixty-eight

anonmd said:


> My thoughts are generally the first advice and the second, third, fifth and eighth are to hit the gym, meet her needs etc. etc., along with the implied or outright statement that surely you must be fat, balding and an insensitive slob .
> 
> Sixth, seventh and ninth are well - you know, the only options are divorce, suffer or cheat.
> 
> Now, it was established very early in this thread that any suggestion the women was fat, unattractive or lazy was not helpful and not allowed - which is fine. Of course line #2 after excluding those was along the lines of 'the husband chose for the marriage to be sexless and he's cheating at least 1/2 the time', so just be supportive.
> 
> So, for frigid women it is the man's fault and for uninterested (can't think of an offensive term on this side, insert your own or offer suggestions :sleeping males it is the man's fault. Because you know, all women LOVE sex and she just doesn't want it with YOU. Well, as a guy who has a sex drive, all men love sex so I guess he just doesn't want sex with you! EXCEPT, maybe all men don't love sex that much...


For frigid women, the obligation is on the man who married them to fix it/deal with it/leave. I really don't see that many sexually uninterested men posting here. The few that do, are men who are dealing with a betrayal such as cheating and resentment. And yes, that's going to be our responsibility (the person posting here) to work through and decide to end the relationship or not. Whether it's a female poster or a man is irrelevant or how even the stats are on that. Generally, the obligation is going to be on the interested party. I don't see why the uninterested side would be here on TAM, looking for answers, unless they have been cheated on.

I don't mind those suggestions. I think it's perfectly fine to suggest that a female poster asking about poor frequency hit the gym, or spend some time on her appearance, or fulfill her potential just as we would for a man asking the same questions. And i don't have any problems with giving the same advice to men and women about opening the marriage/suffer/divorce ect. I would be posting them here myself if i thought it was new or relevant information.

But most of the women in this thread have heard all that advice before. you wouldn't go into a thread of men in a long term SSM and post that maybe they should hit the gym, fulfill their potential, and dress better. No. They would have already heard that before. It would have already been posted 8 times on the first page.

I don't think many women in this thread are lazy, because I see a lot of women actively searching for answers. I don't see a lot of frigidity. I see hurting women who really want to know why their husband would choose porn over them, or punish them with a sexless relationship, or ogle other women, or ignore them and masturbate.

I love sex. I pulled my weight in the relationship, emotionally and financially. I am fit, healthy, active, and i'm not ugly. I didn't nag, I was careful to be responsible with the family money, and I made sure my husband had plenty of time to pursue his own interests and hobbies. I'm 32, and I was faithful to my marriage. There was nothing for my husband to be legitimately resentful or angry with me over. And my husband would NOT have sex with me. There is nothing wrong with me. It simply stands to reason that there must then be something wrong with him, and it helped me to figure out what it was. That he was controlling and abusive and withholding for the joy of the power trip.

In this thread, i am seeking to support those looking for answers as I did, after having already tried the usual things.


----------



## uhtred

I admire your dedication and devotion, but I wonder if it is misplaced. I'm not at all convinced this sort of abuse will ever get better. He will continue to try to make you think it is your fault, and that there is something you can do to fix it. 

Is he doing it consciously, controlling you? Is it a sort of unconscious abuse, where he isn't even aware of how unreasonable he is being? I don't know, and I'm not sure it matters.



TamaraJane said:


> Thank you, I will go have a look at that thread. He definitely changes the goal post. Dishes - I cook dinner and there are dishes or clothes the kids have changed out of. Its always something else though. When we first got together I would cook and clean like a mad thing as I was a stay at home mom then. I used to make lunch and drop it off for him at work etc None of which he remembers. Ironically he sits on the couch calling me a slob when I am trying to cook, entertain kids, bath kids etc. We had a huge blow up a few months ago because he calls me a slob the whole time. I am not a slob. I took a picture this morning and sent it to him of all the dishes etc in the kitchen - Not one was mine. Yet I am the slob because I haven't had time to pack them into the dishwasher or tidy up but he hasn't raised a finger?!
> 
> He clearly does resent something - I am just not sure what. I'm honestly one of those people that seldom get angry. If I do I am angry for maybe 10 minutes and then over it. He can sulk and ignore me for WEEKS.
> 
> Thanks all for the info though. I will go read the suggested stuff. At the end of the day I do still love my husband and would like to find ways to handle him. He was a bachelor for 20 years of his adult life ( and I know why!) so perhaps this is a process, perhaps I do just hold onto hope, I don't know. One thing is for certain though - I most certainly am not spending 10 years of my life doing this.


----------



## Lila

Holdingontoit said:


> I gave the same advice at the top of this page: what is a girl to do? File for divorce.
> 
> I give the same advice to women as to men when divorce is perceived not to be feasible: if you are not willing to divorce over it, do not expect to ever resolve it.
> 
> And the "default" advice to men is not divorce in the first instance. It is: hit the gym, rock things at work, listen to her, and address those of her complaints that seem reasonable to you. If that doesn't work, then think about destabilizing the relationship.


I get what you're saying holdinontoit, and I agree that your advice is as unbiased as it can get, but my question was regarding destabilization, specifically 'outsourcing'. Why is that an option given to men in sexless marriages but not women in sexless marriages? Is it because the expected responses are different between a man and a woman? In other words, would a woman bringing up an open marriage to her husband be the death knell? Like, "you might as well have your divorce papers ready if you choose to bring that up to your husband" death knell. It's not often presented like this when the man is destabilizing the relationship.


----------



## Lila

Buddy400 said:


> I'm guessing that this is a case of confirmation bias; where one looks at something and tends to find exactly what one was expecting to find. If you were expecting to find a double standard, then you note every time a woman was told to "just suck it up" or "be sexier" and every time a a man is told to "outsource". But, whenever the opposite occurs, it escapes one's notice.
> 
> I'd love to be rich enough to pay someone to do the conclusive study of TAM comments based on the gender of the poster and the commenter.
> 
> I'm sure I'd find out that there is no double standard.


 Not sure why you think there was confirmation bias. As I stated in my post, I based my observations on the threads started in the month of October by both men and women stuck in sexless marriages. Yes, I read them and yes, I noticed the advice was different. Ergo...my question.

Is it a double standard? Don't know and don't care, but what I do care about is providing the women suffering in sexless marriages with as many options as possible, even if those options are not the prettiest or most ladylike.


----------



## Buddy400

Lila said:


> Not sure why you think there was confirmation bias. As I stated in my post, I based my observations on the threads started in the month of October by both men and women stuck in sexless marriages. Yes, I read them and yes, I noticed the advice was different. Ergo...my question.
> 
> Is it a double standard? Don't know and don't care, but what I do care about is providing the women suffering in sexless marriages with as many options as possible, even if those options are not the prettiest or most ladylike.


Well, I was thinking that there may be confirmation bias *because there is always confirmation bias*.

And, you'll note, I was not excluding myself from the observation.

From my experience, over much more than a month (I'll admit that October's been a bit light on the"man-up" advice) is that the men in a sexless marriage are likely to be told that it's due to their behavior and women are told that their husband is gay or that there's nothing they can do.

If there actually was good advice to give, I'd expect it to be somewhat different for each gender.


----------



## MEM2020

Lila,
Fascinating.

I believe you've accurately identified a pattern of gender based behavior. 

Glad you raised it, going forward I will make it a point to express that option. 

I do want to discuss a key point related to this option. I consider it so important, that this weekend I will initiate a separate thread discussing it. 

Many, many posters come on here and open with: Don't suggest divorce, it's no time an option. Which is of course fine - in a way.

The thing is, those people seem unable or unwilling to differentiate between:
1. Being unwilling to file 
And
2. Being unwilling to assert yourself in a manner that might result in your partner filing

(1) I get
(2) Ensures YOU remain the spousal doormat

(1) Is totally true for me. (2) Was NEVER true for me, and is largely the basis for our happy little family.

In most sexless marriages, regardless of the LD's gender, (2) is also true. And that is a big ****ing deal.





Lila said:


> I get what you're saying holdinontoit, and I agree that your advice is as unbiased as it can get, but my question was regarding destabilization, specifically 'outsourcing'. Why is that an option given to men in sexless marriages but not women in sexless marriages? Is it because the expected responses are different between a man and a woman? In other words, would a woman bringing up an open marriage to her husband be the death knell? Like, "you might as well have your divorce papers ready if you choose to bring that up to your husband" death knell. It's not often presented like this when the man is destabilizing the relationship.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Lila said:


> I get what you're saying holdinontoit, and I agree that your advice is as unbiased as it can get, but my question was regarding destabilization, specifically 'outsourcing'. Why is that an option given to men in sexless marriages but not women in sexless marriages? Is it because the expected responses are different between a man and a woman? In other words, would a woman bringing up an open marriage to her husband be the death knell? Like, "you might as well have your divorce papers ready if you choose to bring that up to your husband" death knell. It's not often presented like this when the man is destabilizing the relationship.


I am guessing this occurs most here do not believe that LD men and LD women will react the same way to a wayward HD. I am guessing most here believe that a LD man is LD for different reasons than the typical female is LD, and the typical LD male prioritizes different "payoffs" than a LD female seeks. For these reasons, the LD male is less likely to tolerate outsourcing. 

This is stereotyping and generalizing, but LD females tend to prioritize financial support and co-parenting. They continue to get these payoffs even if their husband outsources. We can imagine a LD wife, especially if she is objectively LD (doesn't enjoy sex) as opposed to situationally LD (doesn't enjoy sex with her current H) feeling relief when she is no longer obliged to "do her duty". On the other hand, LD husbands tend to be more focused on ownership and control of their wife. Outsourcing is a direct threat to their ownership and control over her body, and thus less likely to be tolerated.


----------



## Lila

Buddy400 said:


> Well, I was thinking that there may be confirmation bias *because there is always confirmation bias*.


Buddy, I'm not sure if you realize it but your comment about confirmation bias is the equivalent of telling me 'you're seeing things' or 'it's all in your head'. Talk about completely brushing off someone else's opinion, questions, or observations as nonsensical.


----------



## Lila

MEM2020 said:


> Lila,
> Fascinating.
> 
> I believe you've accurately identified a pattern of gender based behavior.
> 
> Glad you raised it, going forward I will make it a point to express that option.
> 
> I do want to discuss a key point related to this option. *I consider it so important, that this weekend I will initiate a separate thread discussing it. *


I look forward to that thread. Should be interesting.


----------



## Buddy400

Lila said:


> I get what you're saying holdinontoit, and I agree that your advice is as unbiased as it can get, but my question was regarding destabilization, specifically 'outsourcing'. Why is that an option given to men in sexless marriages but not women in sexless marriages? Is it because the expected responses are different between a man and a woman? In other words, would a woman bringing up an open marriage to her husband be the death knell? Like, "you might as well have your divorce papers ready if you choose to bring that up to your husband" death knell. It's not often presented like this when the man is destabilizing the relationship.


The idea here is to give good advice, not gender-free advice (I hope).

I believe that the idea behind "destabilizing" is that women have more spontaneous desire in a NRE (New Relationship Environment) and that, therefore, destabilizing the relationship might help bring that back. It's also assumed that, if the wife likes the marriage, she'll may be motivated to take action maintain the relationship. 

I'm not sure that this would generate the same potential response from a man. First, a man's threat to "outsource" might not be taken as seriously as a woman's (this is assuming that it's easier to a woman to find casual sex partners than it would be for a man). Rather than a challenge to his sexuality being a challenge he might rise to, it's entirely possible that he'll shrink away from it. She could "destabilize", but I'm not sure what she'd destabilize that a sexless husband would care about.

It's commonly thought that women value lots of things besides sex whereas it's commonly thought that men only value sex (and food?). I don't know what exactly a woman would deprive a man of if he doesn't want sex (seeing his children on a regular basis?). I have no idea how you could destabilize a guy who values control, admiration, whatever.


----------



## Buddy400

Lila said:


> Buddy, I'm not sure if you realize it but your comment about confirmation bias is the equivalent of telling me 'you're seeing things' or 'it's all in your head'. Talk about completely brushing off someone else's opinion, questions, or observations as nonsensical.


But, I also referenced my own probable confirmation bias.

I was a pointing out the nature of confirmation bias in everyone, not in you particularly.

Edit: Re-reading my prior post (only after pressing submit on this one, of course), I see that I went a good deal lighter on my (and everyone's) confirmation bias than I had intended. Sorry about that.


----------



## MEM2020

The headline points look like this.

1. The focus is on strength, it isn't on power - which is an 'us' thing. Power only has meaning in relation to another person/group of people. Strength is solely about yourself. 
2. Therefore the focus isn't on destabilization which is also an 'us' thing. Instead the focus is on prioritizing YOURSELF more. Will this have a consequence to your partner? Of course. But that isn't the goal. The goal is to put more energy into YOURSELF to compensate for the LACK of energy your partner is putting into you.

So instead of destabilizing, which is INTENDED to threaten your partner, you increase your own priority in the day to day. The goal of that is simply to rebalance stuff.

That willingness to engage in a very overt re prioritization - is the difference between success and failure in many cases.





Lila said:


> I look forward to that thread. Should be interesting.


----------



## Buddy400

Lila said:


> *Is it a double standard? Don't know and don't care*, but what I do care about is providing the women suffering in sexless marriages with as many options as possible, even if those options are not the prettiest or most ladylike.





Buddy400 said:


> The idea here is to give good advice, not gender-free advice (I hope).


I've been displaying some "confirmation bias" here myself.

Something I am expecting to find on TAM these days is women who are insisting that men and women's sexuality are exactly the same.

So, I notice anything that looks like it might be that (just like when one buys a new car and suddenly sees other cars just like it everywhere) and react.

Looking back, you made it clear that that wasn't your concern. But, since it wasn't what I was "looking for", I missed it.


----------



## Buddy400

Holdingontoit said:


> I am guessing this occurs most here do not believe that LD men and LD women will react the same way to a wayward HD. I am guessing most here believe that a LD man is LD for different reasons than the typical female is LD, and the typical LD male prioritizes different "payoffs" than a LD female seeks. For these reasons, the LD male is less likely to tolerate outsourcing.
> 
> This is stereotyping and generalizing, but LD females tend to prioritize financial support and co-parenting. They continue to get these payoffs even if their husband outsources. We can imagine a LD wife, especially if she is objectively LD (doesn't enjoy sex) as opposed to situationally LD (doesn't enjoy sex with her current H) feeling relief when she is no longer obliged to "do her duty". On the other hand, LD husbands tend to be more focused on ownership and control of their wife. Outsourcing is a direct threat to their ownership and control over her body, and thus less likely to be tolerated.


 @Holdingontoit, please post 5 minutes sooner from now on so that I can avoid the effort of writing posts that try to say the same thing, but not as well. 

Then I can just press the "like" button


----------



## EleGirl

Buddy400 said:


> The idea here is to give good advice, not gender-free advice (I hope).
> 
> I believe that the idea behind "destabilizing" is that women have more spontaneous desire in a NRE (New Relationship Environment) and that, therefore, destabilizing the relationship might help bring that back. It's also assumed that, if the wife likes the marriage, she'll may be motivated to take action maintain the relationship.
> 
> I'm not sure that this would generate the same potential response from a man. First, a man's threat to "outsource" might not be taken as seriously as a woman's (this is assuming that it's easier to a woman to find casual sex partners than it would be for a man). Rather than a challenge to his sexuality being a challenge he might rise to, it's entirely possible that he'll shrink away from it. She could "destabilize", but I'm not sure what she'd destabilize that a sexless husband would care about.
> 
> It's commonly thought that women value lots of things besides sex whereas it's commonly thought that men only value sex (and food?). I don't know what exactly a woman would deprive a man of if he doesn't want sex (seeing his children on a regular basis?). I have no idea how you could destabilize a guy who values control, admiration, whatever.


I think that men value a lot more in marriage than food and sex. If they don’t, then what’s the point of marriage? Things that come to mind are companionship, children and someone to take care of them, a house keeper in some cases, and there is the feeling of belonging to a family. That’s a big draw for humans.

I don’t think that a woman threatening to outsource sex will destabilize a relationship in the way it might do for men making such a threat. The reason is that people often can excuse a man for doing this. But a woman is not excused, she becomes a “slvt” (add a long list of negative, shamming adjectives here). All that would do is to give her husband some things to beat her up emotionally about.

Instead she needs threated to take away the one things that he values--the family unit, his little kingdom. If he’s abusive like the husbands of some of the women posting in the last few days, he’s also losing the target for his abuse. His wife. He needs someone to abuse to feel better about himself.

Even my nasty, mean, abusive, cheating ex (son’s father) absolutely fell apart when after 7 years of him making our marriage sexless and 14 years of his abuse I divorced him. He could not believe that I would do that. Poor baby, he lost his punching bag. Seriously, he was begging me to come back and he would fix himself… HUH!?

All this bit about she loves him despite the abuse, despite him using sex as a weapon, reward/punishment, so she will not consider destabilizing due to sexlessness and other abuses is just enabling his bad behavior.

It would take a very strong woman to be able to threaten outscoring sex. She would most likely have to put up with being called every filthy name in the book. If she could stand up to that, then good on her. But I think that if she could stand up to that, she would not be stuck in a marriage with a guy who was abusing her and withholding sex.

Double standards suck. But they are real. And we don’t all buy into them.


----------



## sixty-eight

Buddy400 said:


> It's commonly thought that women value lots of things besides sex whereas it's commonly thought that men only value sex (and food?). I don't know what exactly a woman would deprive a man of if he doesn't want sex (seeing his children on a regular basis?). I have no idea how you could destabilize a guy who values control, admiration, whatever.


She can deprive him of her attention and her presence.

Her presence meaning to him: someone close at hand to control, and who can produce convenient admiration. Her attention meaning that he will now have to do for himself or outsource, whatever it was that he valued. Laundry, cooking, cleaning, sex, care for any minor children during his parenting time.


----------



## Lila

MEM2020 said:


> The headline points look like this.
> 
> 1. The focus is on strength, it isn't on power - which is an 'us' thing. Power only has meaning in relation to another person/group of people. Strength is solely about yourself.
> 2. Therefore the focus isn't on destabilization which is also an 'us' thing. Instead the focus is on prioritizing YOURSELF more. *Will this have a consequence to your partner? Of course.* But that isn't the goal. The goal is to put more energy into YOURSELF to compensate for the LACK of energy your partner is putting into you.
> 
> So instead of destabilizing, which is INTENDED to threaten your partner, you increase your own priority in the day to day. The goal of that is simply to rebalance stuff.
> 
> That willingness to engage in a very overt re prioritization - is the difference between success and failure in many cases.


Mem, I don't want to use up all of your talking points on this thread but I think Buddy brought up a good point. 



Buddy400 said:


> I'm not sure that this would generate the same potential response from a man. First, a man's threat to "outsource" might not be taken as seriously as a woman's (this is assuming that it's easier to a woman to find casual sex partners than it would be for a man). Rather than a challenge to his sexuality being a challenge he might rise to, it's entirely possible that he'll shrink away from it. She could "destabilize", but I'm not sure what she'd destabilize that a sexless husband would care about.
> 
> It's commonly thought that women value lots of things besides sex whereas it's commonly thought that men only value sex (and food?). *I don't know what exactly a woman would deprive a man of if he doesn't want sex (seeing his children on a regular basis?). I have no idea how you could destabilize a guy who values control, admiration, whatever.*


What does destabilization look like for a woman stuck in a sexless marriage?


----------



## farsidejunky

A woman threatening to outsource sex in a relationship will certainly have different effects on different people. 

Speaking as someone who was given that threat indirectly, it was a wake up call...but one that was short lived because I did not possess the communication tools to tell her that her behavior toward me was killing my attraction for her.

In other words, we were both jerks. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## uhtred

I've never thought destabilizing was a good idea in any relationship.

I agree that men value all sorts of things in a marriage other than food and sex. What they value varies, but there is a wide range.

"Outsourcing" sex is another word for cheating. Its not OK for men or women. Both men and women can generally find sex outside of marriage if they want to.

Rather than "outsourcing", just leave. Even if you can compel the behavior you want by threat, why would you want that. Who wants a partner that has sex with them out of fear of being divorced, rather than out of desire. 





EleGirl said:


> I think that men value a lot more in marriage than food and sex. If they don’t, then what’s the point of marriage? Things that come to mind are companionship, children and someone to take care of them, a house keeper in some cases, and there is the feeling of belonging to a family. That’s a big draw for humans.
> 
> I don’t think that a woman threatening to outsource sex will destabilize a relationship in the way it might do for men making such a threat. The reason is that people often can excuse a man for doing this. But a woman is not excused, she becomes a “slvt” (add a long list of negative, shamming adjectives here). All that would do is to give her husband some things to beat her up emotionally about.
> 
> Instead she needs threated to take away the one things that he values--the family unit, his little kingdom. If he’s abusive like the husbands of some of the women posting in the last few days, he’s also losing the target for his abuse. His wife. He needs someone to abuse to feel better about himself.
> 
> Even my nasty, mean, abusive, cheating ex (son’s father) absolutely fell apart when after 7 years of him making our marriage sexless and 14 years of his abuse I divorced him. He could not believe that I would do that. Poor baby, he lost his punching bag. Seriously, he was begging me to come back and he would fix himself… HUH!?
> 
> All this bit about she loves him despite the abuse, despite him using sex as a weapon, reward/punishment, so she will not consider destabilizing due to sexlessness and other abuses is just enabling his bad behavior.
> 
> It would take a very strong woman to be able to threaten outscoring sex. She would most likely have to put up with being called every filthy name in the book. If she could stand up to that, then good on her. But I think that if she could stand up to that, she would not be stuck in a marriage with a guy who was abusing her and withholding sex.
> 
> Double standards suck. But they are real. And we don’t all buy into them.


----------



## MEM2020

Buddy,

You alternate between being lovable in a humorous manner, and being humorous in a lovable manner.




Buddy400 said:


> @Holdingontoit, please post 5 minutes sooner from now on so that I can avoid the effort of writing posts that try to say the same thing, but not as well.
> 
> Then I can just press the "like" button


----------



## MEM2020

This mindset is EXACTLY why so many marriages are sexless or sexually pathetic.




uhtred said:


> I've never thought destabilizing was a good idea in any relationship.
> 
> I agree that men value all sorts of things in a marriage other than food and sex. What they value varies, but there is a wide range.
> 
> "Outsourcing" sex is another word for cheating. Its not OK for men or women. Both men and women can generally find sex outside of marriage if they want to.
> 
> Rather than "outsourcing", just leave. Even if you can compel the behavior you want by threat, why would you want that. Who wants a partner that has sex with them out of fear of being divorced, rather than out of desire.


----------



## EleGirl

uhtred said:


> I've never thought destabilizing was a good idea in any relationship.
> 
> I agree that men value all sorts of things in a marriage other than food and sex. What they value varies, but there is a wide range.
> 
> "Outsourcing" sex is another word for cheating. Its not OK for men or women. Both men and women can generally find sex outside of marriage if they want to.
> 
> Rather than "outsourcing", just leave. Even if you can compel the behavior you want by threat, why would you want that. Who wants a partner that has sex with them out of fear of being divorced, rather than out of desire.


Generally, destabilizing a marriage is a very bad idea. It's a thread basically that one has better follow through on if they make it and the other does not do what is being requested.

But I think it has it's place, as a last resort. "I'm filing for divorce if we do not go to counseling and work together to get our sex life back." or "I feel that we have serious issues in our marriage, serious enough that I'm filing for divorce if we do not get into counseling and fix them."

There can come a time when it takes that to wake up a complacent spouse. It's better to do it before the threatening spouse has given up and just does not care.

What other choice do they have? To keep asking a gazillion time to get their spouse to work with them or to just file. That's it with a person who does not take their spouse's concerns seriously.


----------



## uhtred

I guess its a matter of definition / degree.

I'm OK with "I'm filing for divorce if you don't go to counseling with me and work to improve our sex live". 

I'm not OK with "I'm filing for divorce if you don't give me a BJ twice a week". 

I am OK with "I wish we had a more active sex life. If you gave me a BJ twice a week, I'd be happy to do anything you wanted in bed". 







EleGirl said:


> Generally, destabilizing a marriage is a very bad idea. It's a thread basically that one has better follow through on if they make it and the other does not do what is being requested.
> 
> But I think it has it's place, as a last resort. "I'm filing for divorce if we do not go to counseling and work together to get our sex life back." or "I feel that we have serious issues in our marriage, serious enough that I'm filing for divorce if we do not get into counseling and fix them."
> 
> There can come a time when it takes that to wake up a complacent spouse. It's better to do it before the threatening spouse has given up and just does not care.
> 
> What other choice do they have? To keep asking a gazillion time to get their spouse to work with them or to just file. That's it with a person who does not take their spouse's concerns seriously.


----------



## anonmd

One spouse's destabilizing is to threaten divorce, another's is a rare loud long argument pushed until you get engagement.


----------



## Fozzy

farsidejunky said:


> A woman threatening to outsource sex in a relationship will certainly have different effects on different people.
> 
> Speaking as someone who was given that threat indirectly, it was a wake up call...but one that was short lived because I did not possess the communication tools to tell her that her behavior toward me was killing my attraction for her.
> 
> *In other words, we were both jerks.*
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I suspect that's a more common dynamic in marriages than people realize.


----------



## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> Even my nasty, mean, abusive, cheating ex (son’s father) absolutely fell apart when after 7 years of him making our marriage sexless and 14 years of his abuse I divorced him. He could not believe that I would do that. Poor baby, he lost his punching bag. Seriously, he was begging me to come back and he would fix himself… HUH!?





sixty-eight said:


> She can deprive him of her attention and her presence.
> 
> Her presence meaning to him: someone close at hand to control, and who can produce convenient admiration. Her attention meaning that he will now have to do for himself or outsource, whatever it was that he valued. Laundry, cooking, cleaning, sex, care for any minor children during his parenting time.


Both of your husbands just seemed like sociopaths. I don't think anything either of you could have threatened would have made any difference. I'm so happy you both escaped (maybe this is a thing with husband caused sexless marriages; I'm pretty sure a higher percentage of men are sociopaths).

With similarly twisted wives, I'm sure that there's not much to be done there either.

If a marriage is sexless due to the woman, there's a feeling that it's more that she has a phobia regarding sex or is simply selfish and not convinced that sex is really all that important. I don't recall many sexless marriage stories from men with wives operating on your ex's levels (and, if they are, the sexless issue isn't the main problem).


----------



## sixty-eight

Buddy400 said:


> Both of your husbands just seemed like sociopaths. I don't think anything either of you could have threatened would have made any difference. I'm so happy you both escaped (maybe this is a thing with husband caused sexless marriages; I'm pretty sure a higher percentage of men are sociopaths).
> 
> With similarly twisted wives, I'm sure that there's not much to be done there either.
> 
> If a marriage is sexless due to the woman, there's a feeling that it's more that she has a phobia regarding sex or is simply selfish and not convinced that sex is really all that important. I don't recall many sexless marriage stories from men with wives operating on your ex's levels (and, if they are, the sexless issue isn't the main problem).


Sociopath and Psychopath are what they used to call Cluster B personality disorders. When I say my ex had Narcissistic Personality Disorder, i am saying that he had quite a few psychopathic tendencies.

I tend to disagree, there are several men with stories like this on TAM. The only one I can think of off hand who has a partner that controls with withholding sex is Coppertop, but I know there are more. John117? Not to say that's the exclusive way that they attempt to steer the relationship, just the most often used. Many times that you see a long thread with someone who is described as BSC(bat sh!t crazy) you are looking at some kind of Personality disorder (PD). Women can control by ruining everything you like, just as a man could. Maybe worse, because they tend to stick around and influence the children more then their male counterparts.

I said it a few pages back i think, but i really do think sexlessness is a less common "punishment" by this kind of man. It's not really about sex, they take away what you care about. I cared about having a happy healthy relationship with physical touch and quality time. So, he made it so I couldn't have that. 

When i moved out of our room, and told him i never wanted to have sex with him again, he flipped his entire MO.
Because after that, I was subjected to forced intimacy, sexual assault, and attempted rape.

I believe many relationships that are this way (a disordered man with a HD/AD woman), instead of ending up with a sexless relationship with a sexually disinterested man, end up being cheated on repeatedly instead. Only a certain kind of man doesn't care about sex enough for near celibacy. The ones who can't do without, punish by outsourcing sex and making sure you find out. That's also why my ex beat me so often in the beginning, before I told the families and created an immediate unpleasant consequence. Physically abusing someone with a physical touch love language is going to be particularly damaging. If they can't take away your heart's desire, they will ruin it.

My ex (after 8+ years with me of near sexlessness/withholding affection) as soon as I moved out he moved a new girl in and made sure i knew they were screwing all the time.
It was never about sex. Only control and punishment.

So, to sum up, this is only going to apply to a very small subset of women on this thread. There will be a few, i'm certain, but not most.


----------



## john117

True BSC people can hardly think ahead, let alone craft elaborate schemes... I think it's something even more than your friendly neighborhood cluster B disorders, more likely a completely different type of pathology.


----------



## CharlieParker

uhtred said:


> I'm OK with "I'm filing for divorce if you don't go to counseling with me and work to improve our sex live".


BTDT, much subtler but still clear, I saw it as being honest and open with my wife. Not a threat, but stating a fact, I "wasn't going to be able live like this long term". It sucked and kinda felt like a threat, but I owed her that. We're good now, but I'm not sure that discussion had any direct impact on that, I'll take it.


----------



## sixty-eight

john117 said:


> True BSC people can hardly think ahead, let alone craft elaborate schemes... I think it's something even more than your friendly neighborhood cluster B disorders, more likely a completely different type of pathology.


maybe actual BSCrazy aren't capable. Not the truely disordered, or at least, the disordered I lived with. I feel like plotting and scheming were 95% of his brainpower.
haha :rofl:, I propose that that's where all his sexual energy got funneled to.

I was just saying that if you were trying to track how many people are dealing with PD's on TAM, the abbreviated BSC (because it's used so many times to be worthy of abbreviation) is a big ole red flag. Maybe something for discussion on another thread, so as not to threadjack.


----------



## john117

In both cases it's like a PC taken over by a virus... Be it BSC or PD, normal cognitive processes pretty much go the way of the dodo bird. 

Isn't that why we call them disorders  ?


----------



## sixty-eight

john117 said:


> In both cases it's like a PC taken over by a virus... Be it BSC or PD, normal cognitive processes pretty much go the way of the dodo bird.
> 
> Isn't that why we call them disorders  ?


I don't know. With mine, it was all about control. The cognitive processes were all still there. What was missing with the empathy, the emotions and feelings. The only people i ever caught him actively considering their feelings were our kids and his mother. and even then, only sometimes.

ETA: his own feelings were also missing. I used to joke that he reminded me of the Terminator. Purely analytical processes, no feelings; like a robot. From what I understand, that's relatively common for the NPD subcategory. I have 2 relatives (who I believe to have BPD), who seems to be purely made of emotions and fleeting thoughts without logic. They would be incapable of cognitive processes or plotting, as you said. Maybe that's the difference between the two types?


----------



## uhtred

@sixty-eight I can't "like" your long post because it is so horrifying. I agree with it and am very glad you got out.


----------



## Holdingontoit

uhtred said:


> Rather than "outsourcing", just leave.


I agree.



uhtred said:


> Even if you can compel the behavior you want by threat, why would you want that. Who wants a partner that has sex with them out of fear of being divorced, rather than out of desire.


I did. For years. All I cared about was the ego rush from consent. Having to manipulate her into granting that consent would not have deterred me. That is why I accepted nothing but starfish sex for so long.

I now agree with you and only want desired sex. So, of course, we don't have any at all. That is an improvement, right?

FWIW, I believe we have now eclipsed out previous record drought of 15 months by a substantial margin. But I don't think you can call it a drought when there is no expectation of any future precipitation. Maybe I should say our colony on the moon has lasted a record amount of time.


----------



## sixty-eight

uhtred said:


> I've never thought destabilizing was a good idea in any relationship.
> 
> I agree that men value all sorts of things in a marriage other than food and sex. What they value varies, but there is a wide range.
> 
> "Outsourcing" sex is another word for cheating. Its not OK for men or women. Both men and women can generally find sex outside of marriage if they want to.
> 
> Rather than "outsourcing", just leave. Even if you can compel the behavior you want by threat, why would you want that. *Who wants a partner that has sex with them out of fear of being divorced, rather than out of desire.*


Outsourcing as cheating, is not ok. Outsourcing as opening the marriage is questionably ok to me, as long as all parties give consent. At the end of my marriage when we were separated in the same house, I knew I wouldn't be sleeping with him ever again. I told him it was fine if he wanted to go out on dates/have sex with others, just not to bring them to our mutual residence with the kids. We were still legally married, we still are legally married, and he has had several girlfriends. I do not want someone to feel tied to celibacy because of my choices. To me, that's the equivalent of him keeping us celibate all those years by his choices.
I do think that simply leaving is far preferable.

*Who wants a partner that has sex with them out of fear of being divorced, rather than out of desire.*
I agree with this wholeheartedly.


----------



## sixty-eight

john117 said:


> In both cases it's like a PC taken over by a virus... Be it BSC or PD, normal cognitive processes pretty much go the way of the dodo bird.
> 
> Isn't that why we call them disorders  ?





sixty-eight said:


> I don't know. With mine, it was all about control. The cognitive processes were all still there. What was missing with the empathy, the emotions and feelings. The only people i ever caught him actively considering their feelings were our kids and his mother. and even then, only sometimes.
> 
> ETA: his own feelings were also missing. I used to joke that he reminded me of the Terminator. Purely analytical processes, no feelings; like a robot. From what I understand, that's relatively common for the NPD subcategory. I have 2 relatives (who I believe to have BPD), who seems to be purely made of emotions and fleeting thoughts without logic. They would be incapable of cognitive processes or plotting, as you said. Maybe that's the difference between the two types?


Sometimes I wonder if my FOO issues (growing up with several disordered in my immediate family and daily life) Made me more likely to accept sub par treatment in my marriage.
Treatment such as sexlessness/control/baseless punishment/abuse.
I know there were other factors: general stubbornness, lack of options, marriage vows, trauma bonding. But I believe my FOO to be at the root of my decisions to stay.

I also wonder if it made me a target for that kind of person, or more susceptible to the love bombing or both.

Anyone else wonder that? If FOO issues (of any kind) led you to try to cope and work on your sexless marriage instead of leaving it?


----------



## uhtred

It an interesting question, maybe rates its own thread.

Some women (and presumably men) seem to have a higher than normal chance of living in abusive relationships. From the few examples I've seen, it strangely seems more associated with strength than with weakness. Women who are willing to accept / tolerate all sorts of mistreatment in order to preserve something they think is important - their marriage. The woman I know personally who is being mistreated by her husband (not exactly abuse, but close), is very strong and seems to feel that "marriage" is important enough to put up with anything. Its a unfortunate case of applying strength and honor in the wrong place. (btw, several of us have been trying to convince her to get out of this bad marriage).

There may be all sort of other patterns as well. 






sixty-eight said:


> Sometimes I wonder if my FOO issues (growing up with several disordered in my immediate family and daily life) Made me more likely to accept sub par treatment in my marriage.
> Treatment such as sexlessness/control/baseless punishment/abuse.
> I know there were other factors: general stubbornness, lack of options, marriage vows, trauma bonding. But I believe my FOO to be at the root of my decisions to stay.
> 
> I also wonder if it made me a target for that kind of person, or more susceptible to the love bombing or both.
> 
> Anyone else wonder that? If FOO issues (of any kind) led you to try to cope and work on your sexless marriage instead of leaving it?


----------



## Buddy400

sixty-eight said:


> I said it a few pages back i think, but i really do think sexlessness is a less common "punishment" by this kind of man. It's not really about sex, they take away what you care about. I cared about having a happy healthy relationship with physical touch and quality time. So, he made it so I couldn't have that.


I wouldn't think that this kind of man withdraws sex as a rule, only if the woman cares about it. If she didn't care about sex, he'd find something else.


----------



## Buddy400

uhtred said:


> Even if you can compel the behavior you want by threat, why would you want that. Who wants a partner that has sex with them out of fear of being divorced, rather than out of desire.


If you told your spouse that if your sex life didn't improve, you'd leave and sex subsequently got better then one of two things could be happening.

1) They are "forcing" themselves to have sex with you

2) They like having sex with you and either didn't realize how important it was to you or needed something to motivate them into giving it a higher priority.

I think you'd be able to tell the difference. If not, why default to option 1?

If a husband goes out drinking constantly with his buddies is it okay for his wife to say "If this doesn't change I'll leave"? Is she not allowed to let him know the probable consequence of his behavior? Would it not matter if he stayed home more often since, after all, he'd only be doing it because he was "forced" to. 

The idea that one should never compromise or ask their spouse to compromise because they "should want to do it on their own" is very destructive to relationships.


----------



## sixty-eight

Buddy400 said:


> I wouldn't think that this kind of man withdraws sex as a rule, only if the woman cares about it. If she didn't care about sex, he'd find something else.


right, that's exactly what i'm saying. That's why there will only be a few similar posts to mine here on this thread.

There is also the factor that the goal of this man is to ruin sex for the woman who cares about sex, not necessarily to make it sexless. This can be accomplished several ways. 1) to abstain from sex completely, or as close as possible. 2) to insist on only what he likes in sex with no compromise, or painful or unpleasant sex. For instance, no foreplay, no oral for her, asking for bj's to completion and then not reciprocating, purposefully not bringing her or allowing her to orgasm, whatever brings no mutual joy or completion to that particular woman or any woman 3) To cheat repeatedly, destroying the sexual relationship between the couple.

Like you said, if she doesn't care about sex, he will simply abstain from or destroy the thing she does in fact care about.


----------



## sixty-eight

Buddy400 said:


> If you told your spouse that if your sex life didn't improve, you'd leave and sex subsequently got better then one of two things could be happening.
> 
> 1) They are "forcing" themselves to have sex with you
> 
> 2) They like having sex with you and either didn't realize how important it was to you or needed something to motivate them into giving it a higher priority.
> 
> I think you'd be able to tell the difference. If not, why default to option 1?
> 
> If a husband goes out drinking constantly with his buddies is it okay for his wife to say "If this doesn't change I'll leave"? Is she not allowed to let him know the probable consequence of his behavior? Would it not matter if he stayed home more often since, after all, he'd only be doing it because he was "forced" to.
> 
> *The idea that one should never compromise or ask their spouse to compromise because they "should want to do it on their own" is very destructive to relationships.*


I understand the logic, especially the bolded part. However, in my mind if the other partner doesn't really want to have sex, then that is a big turn off. Now neither of you want to have sex. I don't know how to get around that. I'm not sure it's possible.


----------



## EllisRedding

sixty-eight said:


> I understand the logic, but in my mind if the other partner doesn't really want to have sex, then that is a big turn off. Now neither of you want to have sex. I don't know how to get around that. I'm not sure it's possible.


Depending on the scenario it is tricky. So in my case, my W is responsive desire. She may actually want sex, but relies on me starting things. However, there are times that as much as I would like sex, her not initiating is a turn off, to the point where it actually makes me not want sex. So what happens, nothing lol.


----------



## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> Depending on the scenario it is tricky. So in my case, my W is responsive desire. She may actually want sex, but relies on me starting things. However, there are times that as much as I would like sex, her not initiating is a turn off, to the point where it actually makes me not want sex. So what happens, nothing lol.


You've got to make sure to let her know about this; that's it's very important for her, if she likes sex with you, that she let you know it occasionally. She'll say that you should already know that she does, but you need to make clear that you need more overt affirmation.

If you're like me in this area (and I suspect you are), the need to protect yourself emotionally will tempt you into holding back and the sex (and the marriage) diminishing.

Don't let this happen because you chose the emotionally safer route. 

Sometimes you just need to put your balls on the railroad tracks and hope for the best.


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> You've got to make sure to let her know about this; that's it's very important for her, if she likes sex with you, that she let you know it occasionally. She'll say that you should already know that she does, but you need to make clear that you need more overt affirmation.
> 
> If you're like me in this area (and I suspect you are), the need to protect yourself emotionally will tempt you into holding back and the sex (and the marriage) diminishing.
> 
> Don't let this happen because you chose the emotionally safer route.
> 
> Sometimes you just need to put your balls on the railroad tracks and hope for the best.


Right now for the past few months or so I honestly have had very little drive/libido (could be in part protecting myself but moreso just a perfect storm of various stresses all coming up at the same time), so I have actually been content at not doing anything :surprise: In no way is this ideal, but my motivation to pursue it further just hasn't been there (if that makes sense?).

I will say, the last time we did anything (somewhere in mid September) my W actually initiated, woke up early before I had to get up for work (completely out of character for her). No asking if I wanted to do something or waiting for a day where I take off from work so it is planned, she just went right at it. That alone made the experience much more worthwhile for me


----------



## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> I will say, the last time we did anything (somewhere in mid September) my W actually initiated, woke up early before I had to get up for work (completely out of character for her). No asking if I wanted to do something or waiting for a day where I take off from work so it is planned, she just went right at it. That alone made the experience much more worthwhile for me


You're the emotional rock and she's just not used to having to think about your emotional needs.

You think "I ask for so little, how could she possibly ignore the few needs I have". But she almost certainly still hasn't come to grips with what you're going through. You've trained her your entire relationship to not have to worry about your emotional state. 

When I finally made my needs known to my wife, it took a few attempts to really get through to her. Now she's pissed that she didn't pay attention earlier but it's mostly my fault for not being persistent.


----------



## CharlieParker

EllisRedding said:


> In no way is this ideal, but my motivation to pursue it further just hasn't been there (if that makes sense?).


That's still a very slippery slope, even if your motivation is not actually malicious.


----------



## Cletus

sixty-eight said:


> I understand the logic, especially the bolded part. However, in my mind if the other partner doesn't really want to have sex, then that is a big turn off. Now neither of you want to have sex. I don't know how to get around that. I'm not sure it's possible.


But that's the beauty of it all. Once you get to that point, there's nothing to get around - if you can do it without despising your spouse.

Not to wax too philosophical, but removing the struggle can for some be the answer. With acceptance comes peace. 

At no point in my life previously did I think I would utter those words, but it seems to be the truth.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


----------



## EllisRedding

CharlieParker said:


> That's still a very slippery slope, even if your motivation is not actually malicious.


Agreed, but keep in mind it is not like I am rejecting her or avoiding sex (that would be a whole other issue and something I am strongly against). I actually took of from work three days last week to get things back on track (i.e. house to ourselves without the kids). As happens about 78.9% of the time when I do this, one of my kids got sick (so she was home with us the last two days) and got me sick as well (the first of the days off).


----------



## Buddy400

Cletus said:


> But that's the beauty of it all. Once you get to that point, there's nothing to get around -* if you can do it without despising your spouse.*
> 
> Not to wax too philosophical, but removing the struggle can for some be the answer. With acceptance comes peace.
> 
> At no point in my life previously did I think I would utter those words, but it seems to be the truth.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


I'd have a hard time getting around the bolded.


----------



## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed, but keep in mind it is not like I am rejecting her or avoiding sex


True, but you're letting it slide and, if it slides too far, it may be harder to get it back later.


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> You're the emotional rock and she's just not used to having to think about your emotional needs.
> 
> You think "I ask for so little, how could she possibly ignore the few needs I have". But she almost certainly still hasn't come to grips with what you're going through. You've trained her your entire relationship to not have to worry about your emotional state.
> 
> When I finally made my needs known to my wife, it took a few attempts to really get through to her. Now she's pissed that she didn't pay attention earlier but it's mostly my fault for not being persistent.


This has been the topic of conversation in the past. I brought up certain things that she used to do that over time she stopped (I don't think consciously / maliciously on her part, she even said she didn't realize it). Just things like in the past when we curled up to watch TV she would literally be smack up against me, hands all over me (not necessarily trying to start something). It eventually morphed to she would curl up to me, but not quite as close, and would only really get close or handsie when she wanted to start something. My birthday was always guaranteed sex day (or BJ if she was unable to). That stopped several years ago, but to her credit after we discussed when my bday did come up she was ready to go (she called it sex and steak day). Of course, I got sick that day so no luck lol

I think it just gets to the point where do you want to keep pushing the topic and wondering if she is doing it b/c she feels like she has to vs. she actually wants to.

I don't want to let things slide, don't get me wrong. However, not having much of a drive right now I guess it has just fallen on my priority list. The risk as well, she starts feeling like the sex starved wife or thinking there is something wrong with her, I do understand that.

Apologies to Elegirl if this is a threadjack.


----------



## sixty-eight

Cletus said:


> But that's the beauty of it all. Once you get to that point, there's nothing to get around - *if you can do it without despising your spouse.*
> 
> Not to wax too philosophical, but removing the struggle can for some be the answer. With acceptance comes peace.
> 
> At no point in my life previously did I think I would utter those words, but it seems to be the truth.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk





Buddy400 said:


> I'd have a hard time getting around the bolded.


Yeah, I also had problems with getting around the bolded. It didn't cut my sex drive down, just my desire for my spouse.
I found myself continually frustrated, sexually and otherwise by that.

It may have not been such an obstacle if it were the only problem, but it wasn't. I had other reasons to despise my spouse as well.

I did experience both the "with acceptance comes peace" and "removing the struggle" When I gave up and moved out. IMO, my ex still cannot comprehend that, or why I won't give up my peace and come back.


----------



## farsidejunky

EllisRedding said:


> This has been the topic of conversation in the past. I brought up certain things that she used to do that over time she stopped (I don't think consciously / maliciously on her part, she even said she didn't realize it). Just things like in the past when we curled up to watch TV she would literally be smack up against me, hands all over me (not necessarily trying to start something). It eventually morphed to she would curl up to me, but not quite as close, and would only really get close or handsie when she wanted to start something. My birthday was always guaranteed sex day (or BJ if she was unable to). That stopped several years ago, but to her credit after we discussed when my bday did come up she was ready to go (she called it sex and steak day). Of course, I got sick that day so no luck lol
> 
> I think it just gets to the point where do you want to keep pushing the topic and wondering if she is doing it b/c she feels like she has to vs. she actually wants to.
> 
> I don't want to let things slide, don't get me wrong. However, not having much of a drive right now I guess it has just fallen on my priority list. The risk as well, she starts feeling like the sex starved wife or thinking there is something wrong with her, I do understand that.
> 
> Apologies to Elegirl if this is a threadjack.


This is really the crux of the matter.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## AVR1962

TamaraJane said:


> Thank you all for the feedback. Unfortunately at this point in time Divorce is just not an option for me as we have two beautiful younger daughters. I would rather break my own heart than theirs for the time being.
> 
> @ AVR1962 - That sounds all too familiar although I have never had a problem with him looking at or flirting with other women. I don't find him to be a womenizer.
> 
> To be honest I just think Everything about me annoys my husband. He is calculated and controlled and tidy. I am unorganized, messy and quite outgoing. I had a chat to him this evening and told him how hurt I am about this intimacy thing. He had a fit about my duties as a housewife and about how I do not clean the house well enough and about being messy. We have a house keeper who comes 3 times a week, in between that I try and tidy as much as I can but often run out of time in the morning as I do most of the morning duties, Naturally the mess is all my fault - We wont talk about the fact that we have two kids. He never cooks, helps clean up or do dishes. I am also a full time working mommy.


TamaraJane, my ex is not what I would consider a womanizer either. It was a quote from the book. With the exception of that term everything else fits in my case.

You have a housekeeper 3 times a week and he complains about the house being messy? Does he help?


----------



## AVR1962

Faithful Wife said:


> Jeesh....you both work full time (meaning, not home during the day), you have a house cleaner 3 days a week, and somehow the house is STILL too dirty for him to want to have sex? :scratchhead:
> 
> I'm having trouble understanding how the house is dirty at all in these conditions.
> 
> However...the only point I have for this thread is that obviously there is more going on than a dirty house that is causing his LD. If he "had a fit" and blame shifted everything to you just because you brought up the lack of intimacy, I'm going to guess he has long standing resentment about something....(though whatever that something is, it may or may not be justified....if he's just a weird clean freak, no one in the world would live up to what he is wanting). And the resentment may not really even be toward you. He may resent the world or resent life or God if he feels he ended up not getting what he expected out of life.


I was thinking the same. TamaraJane, is there a possibly an affair going on here?


----------



## uhtred

Completely valid. 

I did try this. I didn't specifically threaten to divorce but did make her aware how unhappy I was and I think she realized that I was about to ask for a divorce. 

Sex was frequent and great for about 6 months, then tapered off. Two more times I talked with her, and each time it got better then quickly tapered off again. From that I concluded #1. She is not a dumb woman, she knows the things that I still want. If she never does them without my expressing great unhappiness and the implicit threat to leave, then she clearly is only doing them under threat.






Buddy400 said:


> If you told your spouse that if your sex life didn't improve, you'd leave and sex subsequently got better then one of two things could be happening.
> 
> 1) They are "forcing" themselves to have sex with you
> 
> 2) They like having sex with you and either didn't realize how important it was to you or needed something to motivate them into giving it a higher priority.
> 
> I think you'd be able to tell the difference. If not, why default to option 1?
> 
> If a husband goes out drinking constantly with his buddies is it okay for his wife to say "If this doesn't change I'll leave"? Is she not allowed to let him know the probable consequence of his behavior? Would it not matter if he stayed home more often since, after all, he'd only be doing it because he was "forced" to.
> 
> The idea that one should never compromise or ask their spouse to compromise because they "should want to do it on their own" is very destructive to relationships.


----------



## Faithful Wife

uhtred said:


> Completely valid.
> 
> I did try this. I didn't specifically threaten to divorce but did make her aware how unhappy I was and I think she realized that I was about to ask for a divorce.
> 
> Sex was frequent and great for about 6 months, then tapered off. Two more times I talked with her, and each time it got better then quickly tapered off again. *From that I concluded* #1. She is not a dumb woman, she knows the things that I still want. If she never does them without my expressing great unhappiness and the implicit threat to leave, then she clearly is only doing them under threat.


And from that your wife concluded that your threats are empty and you will never ask her for a D. 

Which is fine, because you have specifically said you will never D.

But where that leaves you is sexless with absolutely no bargaining chip, forever. And ever.

Again that's fine because you would rather be married to her and mostly sexless than divorced from her.

So from here, you basically have to continue to suffer from lack of sex or learn how to not suffer from it any more, like @Cletus has done.


----------



## EleGirl

uhtred said:


> Completely valid.
> 
> I did try this. I didn't specifically threaten to divorce but did make her aware how unhappy I was and I think she realized that I was about to ask for a divorce.
> 
> Sex was frequent and great for about 6 months, then tapered off. Two more times I talked with her, and each time it got better then quickly tapered off again. From that I concluded #1. She is not a dumb woman, she knows the things that I still want. If she never does them without my expressing great unhappiness and the implicit threat to leave, then she clearly is only doing them under threat.


It seems that you learned a lot by having those talks with her. I don't think that in your case the talks were of no use. Instead you got to the heart of the issue. She's not very interested in sex and not willing to do anything to change. 

And now you can decide if you can live with that.

Other people might have different results in doing this. It might be that their spouse needed a wakeup call. Or that there was a real problem that the spouse was avoiding taking care of..such as low T (or other hormonal issues). And a bit of good talking to made them finally face the fact that it needed to be deal with.


----------



## sixty-eight

Faithful Wife said:


> And from that your wife concluded that your threats are empty and you will never ask her for a D.
> 
> Which is fine, because you have specifically said you will never D.
> 
> But where that leaves you is sexless with absolutely no bargaining chip, forever. And ever.
> 
> Again that's fine because you would rather be married to her and mostly sexless than divorced from her.
> 
> So from here, you basically have to continue to suffer from lack of sex or learn how to not suffer from it any more, like Cletus has done.


I hate to agree with this Uhtred, but I do.

When I left, my ex expressed shock and surprise. He had concluded, based on years of evidence, that I would continue to be unhappy, but that I would not leave. That I would continue to be a nice person, and cater to the (non sexual) things that he wanted, no matter what he did.

I believe that your wife is not malicious, she doesn't continually press for you to give up more and more of the things that you want (like my ex-spouse). But I do believe that she will never be motivated enough to make a sustained effort to keep you until she has hard evidence that you will leave.


----------



## Cletus

Buddy400 said:


> I'd have a hard time getting around the bolded.


So did I - for a very long time, and with one huge misstep along the way.


----------



## Cletus

Faithful Wife said:


> So from here, you basically have to continue to suffer from lack of sex or learn how to not suffer from it any more, like @Cletus has done.


Yes, but let me be clear to point out that I'm not in a sexless marriage, either. I'm in a marriage that is mostly satisfactory to her sexual needs, and acceptable though not necessarily fulfilling to me.

Even I don't subscribe to the abstinence plan as long-term sustainable.


----------



## farsidejunky

Faithful Wife said:


> And from that your wife concluded that your threats are empty and you will never ask her for a D.
> 
> Which is fine, because you have specifically said you will never D.
> 
> But where that leaves you is sexless with absolutely no bargaining chip, forever. And ever.
> 
> Again that's fine because you would rather be married to her and mostly sexless than divorced from her.
> 
> So from here, you basically have to continue to suffer from lack of sex or learn how to not suffer from it any more, like @Cletus has done.


I agree with this post, but it almost feels like (and correct me please if I am mistaken) that you are implying that there is more he could do.

I would argue that they are incompatible, and there is no solution in this case other than dissolution.


----------



## Buddy400

uhtred said:


> Completely valid.
> 
> I did try this. I didn't specifically threaten to divorce but did make her aware how unhappy I was and I think she realized that I was about to ask for a divorce.
> 
> Sex was frequent and great for about 6 months, then tapered off. Two more times I talked with her, and each time it got better then quickly tapered off again. From that I concluded #1. She is not a dumb woman, she knows the things that I still want. If she never does them without my expressing great unhappiness and the implicit threat to leave, then *she clearly is only doing them under threat*.


I'd run the bolded by her one more time just so that she's aware of the conclusion you've come to.

Some people have to be reminded that they need to show up to work on time. Showing up on time just isn't something that comes naturally to them.

Let's say that, other than their tardiness, they're a good employee. 

You've had a few discussions with them in the past where you've pointed out how important it is to show up on time. After every discussion they've been on time for a while and then backslid.

Do you just decide to either fire them or live with their being late?

Maybe they just don't have the same internal motivation to show up on time that you do and they need an occasional reminder.


----------



## Faithful Wife

farsidejunky said:


> I agree with this post, but it almost feels like (and correct me please if I am mistaken) that you are implying that there is more he could do.
> 
> I would argue that they are incompatible, and there is no solution in this case other than dissolution.


I actually feel that a D should be an option for everyone...but I also understand why some would never choose to employ that option. That's the thing you are "hearing" me implying.


----------



## uhtred

I agree too. Actually I think there is lots of agreement here. 

There are many reasons for sexless marriages. One of those reasons is a person with very little natural interest in sex. In some cases that person is honestly happy to provide sex to their spouse because they enjoy making their spouse happy. That can be OK as long as the overall relationship is good and balanced.

In other cases their dislike of sexual activity exceeds their desire to please their spouse, whether because the first is large or the second small. In that case they may still be willing to engage in sex to prevent their spouse from leaving - either as an explicit or implicit contract. 

Whether of not the second case is acceptable to the spouse depends - are they willing do accept sex not as a willingly given gift, but as a de facto trade? People will have different opinions. 


For myself, my main interest in sex is being desired, not the act itself (though that is of course fun too). Pride is my preferred sin, not lust, and my pride won't let me accept sex that is not enthusiastic. Fortunately I know that I am desired by other women, so I am not too miserable in my situation. 


Winding back to the original topic, I think that people who in sex-starved relationships would do well to think about what it is that they really want from sex. Are they missing the physical act, or missing being desired? 


BTW, my wife is a generally good person, not the monster that sixty-eight's husband was. If she were an evil person it would be an easy to leave. 





sixty-eight said:


> I hate to agree with this Uhtred, but I do.
> 
> When I left, my ex expressed shock and surprise. He had concluded, based on years of evidence, that I would continue to be unhappy, but that I would not leave. That I would continue to be a nice person, and cater to the (non sexual) things that he wanted, no matter what he did.
> 
> I believe that your wife is not malicious, she doesn't continually press for you to give up more and more of the things that you want (like my ex-spouse). But I do believe that she will never be motivated enough to make a sustained effort to keep you until she has hard evidence that you will leave.


----------



## sixty-eight

uhtred said:


> Winding back to the original topic, I think that people who in sex-starved relationships would do well to think about what it is that they really want from sex. Are they missing the physical act, or missing being desired?
> 
> 
> BTW, my wife is a generally good person, not the monster that sixty-eight's husband was. If she were an evil person it would be an easy to leave.


Good point. 
And for the record, i too believe uhtred's wife to be a good person, I was comparing her to my ex _purely_ on the basis of taking a spouse's likelihood of leaving seriously, nothing else.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Since I complain about lack of sex so much; I thought it fair that I report that we did have sex last night.

It was wonderful and I felt floaty for hours afterward. I fell asleep early and slept really well. I haven't felt so feminine in ages.

But I'm not going to count on it happening regularly. I think that it's healthier to savor it when it happens---and accept that it will not be frequent. Maybe the lack of frequency can make it that much better when it does happen.

It was great though; he even played with my ears afterward, like he used to do.0


----------



## jld

uhtred said:


> For myself, *my main interest in sex is being desired, *not the act itself (though that is of course fun too). Pride is my preferred sin, not lust, and *my pride won't let me accept sex that is not enthusiastic. *Fortunately I know that I am desired by other women, so I am not too miserable in my situation.


Insightful, uhtred. Thanks for sharing that.


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> Since I complain about lack of sex so much; I thought it fair that I report that we did have sex last night.
> 
> It was wonderful and I felt floaty for hours afterward. I fell asleep early and slept really well. I haven't felt so feminine in ages.
> 
> But I'm not going to count on it happening regularly. I think that it's healthier to savor it when it happens---and accept that it will not be frequent. Maybe the lack of frequency can make it that much better when it does happen.
> 
> It was great though; he even played with my ears afterward, like he used to do.0


Well, supposedly according to my age range I should have had sex 86 times this year. Problem, after doing the math there aren't enough days left in the year to meet that quota lol. 

Question, after feeling the way you felt from last night, does it not make you more frustrated that it may not happen again for a while?


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> Well, supposedly according to my age range I should have had sex 86 times this year. Problem, after doing the math there aren't enough days left in the year to meet that quota lol.
> 
> Question, after feeling the way you felt from last night, does it not make you more frustrated that it may not happen again for a while?



A year ago, yes it would have made me frustrated that, hey, it might be six weeks until this happens again. It might be two weeks (but probably not).

And the expectation makes you miserable.

I was getting to where I was reluctant to ask for cuddles, because I would start to feel needy . . .and, more and more, he isn't in the mood.

I'm going to be really glad for what I can have---it's much, much more than not having anything.

I've gotten used to long periods of nothing. My mind and body are more accepting of it. No, it's not great or ideal. It just "is" at this point.

And who knows, maybe in 3 years I'll be post-menopausal and sex will hardly ever occur to me.

I'm trying to live in the present.

I'm sorry about the infrequency rate for you Ellis. IIRC you and Mrs.Ellis are still quite young (not yet 40). Isn't your issue because she had three pregnancies very close together; and is a bit overwhelmed?

So, it would seem that you guys are having a temporary lack of frequency. It's NOT because she doesn't love you or isn't attracted to you or is truly a LD person.

I would suggest that you try "living in the present" too. Thoroughly enjoy it when it happens; don't let your mind go to "why can't this happen more".

Of course, you're a young, healthy man; so testosterone probably makes that more difficult for you. I admit that I cannot relate to being in a man's body and hungering for sex.


----------



## EllisRedding

@notmyrealname4

I can definitely relate to what you posted about for a year ago. I am still at the point though where honestly I would rather do nothing then do something with hopes that maybe somewhere in the next 2-6 weeks it happens again. Not ideal of course, the connection (for my part) does fade. I do wish as you stated I could just live in the moment and enjoy it when it happens, my hormones though beg to differ lol.

Kids aren't really that close together (9, 7, 3). Wouldn't consider my W LD in the sense others do, but would say she is a lower drive than myself. Don't know if I would qualify the issues as temporary since this has been going on and off for years. I will say, the past few months have been more pleasant, my drive is shot so makes it much easier to not miss something you aren't really craving. This thread is meant more for the sex starved wife (no matter how good I look in crotchless undies I still don't qualify), so don't want to get things sidetracked, keep it focused on the W.

Side Note - you have been rather chatty this morning on TAM, appears like you had a REALLY GOOD night last night :grin2:


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> I can definitely relate to what you posted about for a year ago. I am still at the point though where honestly I would rather do nothing then do something with hopes that maybe somewhere in the next 2-6 weeks it happens again. Not ideal of course, the connection (for my part) does fade. I do wish as you stated I could just live in the moment and enjoy it when it happens, my hormones though beg to differ lol.
> 
> Kids aren't really that close together (9, 7, 3). Wouldn't consider my W LD in the sense others do, but would say she is a lower drive than myself. Don't know if I would qualify the issues as temporary since this has been going on and off for years. I will say, the past few months have been more pleasant, my drive is shot so makes it much easier to not miss something you aren't really craving. This thread is meant more for the sex starved wife (no matter how good I look in crotchless undies I still don't qualify), so don't want to get things sidetracked, keep it focused on the W.
> 
> Side Note - you have been rather chatty this morning on TAM, appears like you had a REALLY GOOD night last night :grin2:



I'm sorry that you can't accept what is offered in the moment, because it reminds you that you won't be getting it again any time soon in the future.:frown2:

But I do understand it. It's a defense mechanism. And it's human; not male or female.

I would think that after the 7 year old was born; your wife was overwhelmed. She has a "terrible two" and a newborn.

Then, when the three year old is born: she's just gotten the four-year-old toilet trained, she has another "terrible two", plus a new born.

I don't have kids. I am a sissy. That said, what I described above would be daunting for most people. IIRC, Mrs Ellis doesn't work outside the home. But it's still a lot of work; most of it thankless by nature and unglamorous (dirty diapers, spit-up and burping, teething, no sleep, rounds of doctors appointments, messy house, cooking--and so on and so forth).

Her choice to do this I assume. But it's a lot. And I know you work very hard and you stay in good shape.

I guess I'm just trying to reassure you that your wife's lower-desire is "normal" to an extent.

Just like my husband's is, for his state of health and his age. It reminds me of his mortality and mine. Maybe that's why I'm trying to focus on what I have now. Tomorrow isn't guaranteed. 

Yes, last night was very special for me. I won't deny it.


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> I'm sorry that you can't accept what is offered in the moment, because it reminds you that you won't be getting it again any time soon in the future.:frown2:
> 
> But I do understand it. It's a defense mechanism. And it's human; not male or female.
> 
> I would think that after the 7 year old was born; your wife was overwhelmed. She has a "terrible two" and a newborn.
> 
> Then, when the three year old is born: she's just gotten the four-year-old toilet trained, she has another "terrible two", plus a new born.
> 
> I don't have kids. I am a sissy. That said, what I described above would be daunting for most people. IIRC, Mrs Ellis doesn't work outside the home. But it's still a lot of work; most of it thankless by nature and unglamorous (dirty diapers, spit-up and burping, teething, no sleep, rounds of doctors appointments, messy house, cooking--and so on and so forth).
> 
> Her choice to do this I assume. But it's a lot. And I know you work very hard and you stay in good shape.
> 
> I guess I'm just trying to reassure you that your wife's lower-desire is "normal" to an extent.
> 
> Just like my husband's is, for his state of health and his age. It reminds me of his mortality and mine. Maybe that's why I'm trying to focus on what I have now. Tomorrow isn't guaranteed.
> 
> Yes, last night was very special for me. I won't deny it.


Appreciate the feedback. 

The first couple of points, the best way to explain it, when I have sex I crave more sex, it really is that simple (maybe it is a HD thing, maybe its the testosterone, IDK, but it is just the case). That makes it all the less enjoyable and all the more frustrating walking around afterwards for days/weeks/etc... without. Just doesn't make it worth it at times.

I am not concerned about my Ws desire for me, that has never been an issue. Also, she is a SAHM now (about 3 yrs). At some point she will go back to work again (earliest would be in 2 yrs when our daughter starts Kindergarten). She hated her job anyhow and there is no need for her to work financially, so it is good to know when she does go back she can do it on her own terms and hopefully pursue something more fulfilling.

Things are in fact better now then this time last year, so don't want to make it seem like a bigger issue then it really is. Even though we get little alone time we have done a few several-day trips away, I will take off from work when the kids are at school (backfired the last time as I took off 3 days and had a kid home sick each day, but this usually happens over 50% of the time it seems). The sex itself has been great so that hasn't been an issue. I guess though, as I mentioned, I haven't had much of a drive the past few months, so it just doesn't bother me right now that we haven't done anything in nearly two months vs times in the past (when you have a responsive desire W and the H doesn't have much of a drive, this is what you get lol). At some point we will have our good patches, followed by some bad patches, rinse & repeat. Just seems like that is how it has always worked out


----------



## notmyrealname4

EllisRedding said:


> I am not concerned about my Ws desire for me, that has never been an issue. . . .
> 
> Things are in fact better now then this time last year, so don't want to make it seem like a bigger issue then it really is. . . . . . .
> 
> . . The sex itself has been great so that hasn't been an issue.



Plus she gifts you bags of Nerds and chapsticks and watches odd-bod sci-fi movies with you. :grin2:


----------



## sixty-eight

EllisRedding said:


> Appreciate the feedback.
> 
> The first couple of points, the best way to explain it, when I have sex I crave more sex, it really is that simple (maybe it is a HD thing, maybe its the testosterone, IDK, but it is just the case). That makes it all the less enjoyable and all the more frustrating walking around afterwards for days/weeks/etc... without. Just doesn't make it worth it at times.
> 
> I am not concerned about my Ws desire for me, that has never been an issue. Also, she is a SAHM now (about 3 yrs). At some point she will go back to work again (earliest would be in 2 yrs when our daughter starts Kindergarten). She hated her job anyhow and there is no need for her to work financially, so it is good to know when she does go back she can do it on her own terms and hopefully pursue something more fulfilling.
> 
> Things are in fact better now then this time last year, so don't want to make it seem like a bigger issue then it really is. Even though we get little alone time we have done a few several-day trips away, I will take off from work when the kids are at school (backfired the last time as I took off 3 days and had a kid home sick each day, but this usually happens over 50% of the time it seems). The sex itself has been great so that hasn't been an issue. I guess though, as I mentioned, I haven't had much of a drive the past few months, so it just doesn't bother me right now that we haven't done anything in nearly two months vs times in the past (when you have a responsive desire W and the H doesn't have much of a drive, this is what you get lol). At some point we will have our good patches, followed by some bad patches, rinse & repeat. Just seems like that is how it has always worked out


It's probably an HD thing, as I can very much relate to this dynamic (at least while we were together, and having irregular or almost no sex). Eventually I get stuck on the sometimes not worth it, and it became all the time not worth it because of the other unpleasant factors and the lackluster sex. If i had a responsive desire partner/great sex like you and Mrs. Ellis, I likely would have kept cycling through, as you seem to do.

have sex
crave more sex
get disappointed, sad, frustrated that there won't be anymore sex for a while
sometimes not worth it.


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> Plus she gifts you bags of Nerds and chapsticks and watches odd-bod sci-fi movies with you. :grin2:


Well, she hid my bag of nerds and I caught her a few days ago taking a chapstick out of my stash :cussing::rules::gun:


----------



## EllisRedding

sixty-eight said:


> It's probably an HD thing, as I can very much relate to this dynamic (at least while we were together, and having irregular or almost no sex). Eventually I get stuck on the sometimes not worth it, and it became all the time not worth it because of the other unpleasant factors and the lackluster sex. If i had a responsive desire partner/great sex like you and Mrs. Ellis, I likely would have kept cycling through, as you seem to do.
> 
> have sex
> crave more sex
> get disappointed, sad, frustrated that there won't be anymore sex for a while
> sometimes not worth it.


Wow, you pretty much nailed exactly what I was trying to say. :smthumbup:

Add to it, with a RD W and me being the HD person, it pretty much all falls on me to keep things going. For the most part I am ok with that, but the reality is there are times where I am tired, distracted, etc... I would still welcome sex but not really in the mood to initiate (I am the one who needs to get the engine revved up a bit). When that happens, nothing happens. TBH, at times it is a turn off knowing it is nearly all on me to keep things going. As well, and I think this is gender neutral, sometimes you just want to feel desired (which in part means not actually asking you if you want to have sex, waiting for you to start things, but instead let the actions do the talking).


----------



## sixty-eight

EllisRedding said:


> Wow, you pretty much nailed exactly what I was trying to say. :smthumbup:
> 
> Add to it, with a RD W and me being the HD person, it pretty much all falls on me to keep things going. For the most part I am ok with that, but the reality is there are times where I am tired, distracted, etc... I would still welcome sex but not really in the mood to initiate (I am the one who needs to get the engine revved up a bit). When that happens, nothing happens. TBH, at times it is a turn off knowing it is nearly all on me to keep things going. As well, and I think this is gender neutral, sometimes you just want to feel desired (which in part means not actually asking you if you want to have sex, waiting for you to start things, but instead let the actions do the talking).


Yup, true for women too.

_I would still welcome sex, but not really in the mood to initiate and when that happens, nothing happens_

Sometimes it was a turn off knowing that if i didn't directly ask, that it would take sooooo long for him to notice we hadn't done anything. It felt like if i was to wait for him to initiate, that i might forget how to have sex in the meantime. That's depressing. I remember laughing at paying for birth control. Like throwing money in the toilet for a whole month's pack. I'm setting an alarm, taking it at the same time every day, and not having sex the whole month long.

Sometimes it was that i had been initiating a lot, and was getting a lot of no's. That's a bummer. That would sometimes trigger a time of anti-initiating. 

Anti Initiating = A preemptive strike, taking your power back. Where i'm falling asleep on the couch watching TV, or staying up super late on the computer, or going in to cuddle goodnight with the kids, and then just not getting up. Anything to avoid going to my own bed at a reasonable hour and getting a "no", or a "We just had sex!" or a "I'm really tired" or an "If we do that i'll be tired". Or worse, laying there together, silently. not touching. They already know what you want, and you already know they don't want to. Ugh.

It can get in your head.


----------



## CharlieParker

sixty-eight said:


> I remember laughing at paying for birth control.


Ouch, reminds me of a dear TAM friend (in her early 40's) telling how her gynecologist told her it was still important to use birth control even at her age. Her response broke my heart, she said she couldn't tell the doc it's only important if you're actually having sex.


----------



## notmyrealname4

sixty-eight said:


> I remember laughing at paying for birth control. Like throwing money in the toilet for a whole month's pack. I'm setting an alarm, taking it at the same time every day, and not having sex the whole month long.




I did something similar; but not with birth control.

A few months back I got rid of all my sexy underwear; every time I would see it when I was picking out my clothes each day, it seemed to be taunting me. 

I don't know what it would take to make me want to ever buy that type of stuff again. I think my husband would have to directly ask me and tell me it was important to him.


----------



## EllisRedding

sixty-eight said:


> Sometimes it was that i had been initiating a lot, and was getting a lot of no's. That's a bummer. That would sometimes trigger a time of anti-initiating.
> 
> Anti Initiating = A preemptive strike, taking your power back. Where i'm falling asleep on the couch watching TV, or staying up super late on the computer, or going in to cuddle goodnight with the kids, and then just not getting up. Anything to avoid going to my own bed at a reasonable hour and getting a "no", or a "We just had sex!" or a "I'm really tired" or an "If we do that i'll be tired". Or worse, laying there together, silently. not touching. They already know what you want, and you already know they don't want to. Ugh.
> 
> It can get in your head.


I think you hit on something important @sixty-eight in terms of rejection and initiating. 

I would bet many people think of rejection as verbal rejection (i.e. saying no when you try to initiate), but there are plenty of ways to reject someone. Rejection has never been an issue in my marriage (in terms of one of us turning the advances of the other away). However, at least in my mind, a while back when things were at there worst IMO, this was an issue and something that was frequently in my head. For example, my W would comment ahead of time how tired she was (maybe it was nothing more then saying she was tired, but it got to the point where it felt like she was giving me a heads up). When we used to curl up together she was always right up against me, hand under my shirt, maybe rubbing my chest, etc... regardless of whether or not we had sex. Eventually though this only happened when she did have an interest in starting something, otherwise even though she still curled up with me there was a noticeable difference (she wasn't quite up against me, kept her hands to herself, etc...). Once again, in my mind, it came across as her way of saying that she was not interested in sex without having to actually verbally say it. 

I will admit as well, I have done similar as you, finding other things at times to avoid being put in that situation. It just becomes a major mind fu$k.


----------



## sixty-eight

EllisRedding said:


> I think you hit on something important @sixty-eight in terms of rejection and initiating.
> 
> I would bet many people think of rejection as verbal rejection (i.e. saying no when you try to initiate), but there are plenty of ways to reject someone. Rejection has never been an issue in my marriage (in terms of one of us turning the advances of the other away). However, at least in my mind, a while back when things were at there worst IMO, this was an issue and something that was frequently in my head. For example, my W would comment ahead of time how tired she was (maybe it was nothing more then saying she was tired, but it got to the point where it felt like she was giving me a heads up). When we used to curl up together she was always right up against me, hand under my shirt, maybe rubbing my chest, etc... regardless of whether or not we had sex. Eventually though this only happened when she did have an interest in starting something, otherwise even though she still curled up with me there was a noticeable difference (she wasn't quite up against me, kept her hands to herself, etc...). Once again, in my mind, it came across as her way of saying that she was not interested in sex without having to actually verbally say it.
> 
> I will admit as well, I have done similar as you, finding other things at times to avoid being put in that situation. It just becomes a major mind fu$k.


It's difficult. Because once you are anti-initiating, that's a really unhealthy place, to feel like you must protect yourself from your spouse's lack of care. 
But on the other hand, it is healthy, because you are practicing self awareness and self care. Recognizing that rejection will be upsetting and protecting yourself from it. Mind fVck is right.

I don't think i ever experienced the preemptive strike from him verbally "i'm tired". He would just go to bed before the kids. or he would fall asleep sideways across the bed so i wouldn't even be able to sleep there. Same thing, just non verbal.

The verbal responses like I'm tired, or If we do that i'll be tired, or a plain no, or complaining that I wanted to have sex too often, Were always in response to a direct or indirect ask. Direct being asking outright about having sex, or initiating a kiss wearing very little. Indirect being things like you describe cuddling up to him and initiating skin to skin contact (hand on chest).


----------



## uhtred

When you are rejected a lot, it becomes much easier to never ask. If you are in a situation like mine where your spouse often hints at sex, but then changes their mind, its also easy to get into the pattern of trying to avoid sex. My wife will often hint at sex later in the day or the next day, so I'll make sure I have nothing planned for that time - and then feel like an idiot when she changes her mind.


----------



## EllisRedding

sixty-eight said:


> It's difficult. Because once you are anti-initiating, that's a really unhealthy place, to feel like you must protect yourself from your spouse's lack of care.
> But on the other hand, it is healthy, because you are practicing self awareness and self care. Recognizing that rejection will be upsetting and protecting yourself from it. Mind fVck is right.


That is the challenge. You recognize it is not healthy, you recognize that it is in no way helping the situation. You also recognize it does in part help you maintain your sanity, reduce frustration, etc... Can't tell you how many times I have banged my head over this (and I still do battle with, maybe to a lesser extent now).

Part of what bugs me, sex is what helps me feel connected to my W. She knows this as well. It's not like I consciously say "Well, we haven't had sex in five days so I am going to start distancing myself." Just as time goes on I feel less connected (less husband/wife and more roommate). My W sees this, comments how she misses me, misses the connection, but that doesn't seem to be enough motivation to make her pick up the slack a little on her side, even if it is just temporary (well, until at least 4+ weeks or so go by). So that adds to the mind fVck, where it is now all on me, actions don't quite agree with words, etc...


----------



## notmyrealname4

uhtred said:


> My wife will often hint at sex later in the day or the next day, so I'll make sure I have nothing planned for that time - *and then feel like an idiot when she changes her mind.*




Actually, though, it can be a good idea to have something else planned for that time. Not formal, important plans. But something casual.

So that, if she changes her mind again; you can switch gears and go and pursue your back-up plan.

It makes you feel much less idiotic. I suppose in a way, it is related to the 180 that is recommended here at TAM:

Have your own life that is not completely dependent on your spouses' desire to have sex as much as you.


----------



## sixty-eight

notmyrealname4 said:


> I did something similar; but not with birth control.
> 
> A few months back I got rid of all my sexy underwear; every time I would see it when I was picking out my clothes each day, it seemed to be taunting me.
> 
> I don't know what it would take to make me want to ever buy that type of stuff again. I think my husband would have to directly ask me and tell me it was important to him.


i'm glad to see women responding to this. Sometimes i laughingly wonder to myself if maybe I had a sex drive transplant with an 18 year old male donor, because a lot of the time i relate better to the male HD OP's looking for answers about non compatible drives, or manipulative withholding. I don't want to derail the sex starved wife thread with stuff that few women will be able to relate to.

I feel like I have had an off the norm experience (male LD controlling withholder/SSM/abusive/HD female)
I used to hate that it didn't matter to my sex drive that he treated me badly. Sometimes, i needed physical reassurance _because _he had treated me badly. I felt really confused by that, like my body was betraying me, like my sex drive should have shut off in response to him. Like my body is an idiot.


----------



## notmyrealname4

sixty-eight said:


> *i'm glad to see women responding to this.* Sometimes i laughingly wonder to myself if maybe I had a sex drive transplant with an 18 year old male donor, because a lot of the time* i relate better to the male HD OP's looking for answers about non compatible drives, or manipulative withholding. * I don't want to derail the sex starved wife thread with stuff that few women will be able to relate to.
> 
> I feel like I have had an off the norm experience (male LD controlling withholder/SSM/abusive/HD female)
> I used to hate that it didn't matter to my sex drive that he treated me badly. Sometimes, i needed physical reassurance _because _he had treated me badly. * I felt really confused by that, like my body was betraying me, *like my sex drive should have shut off in response to him. * Like my body is an idiot*.




Lol, well the title of the thread is The Sex Starved Wife :wink2:, so I think it's a-okay for you to post whatever you like to on this subject.

Elegirl is certainly an HD woman, who encountered this problem in her previous marriage. AnonPink too, IIRC.

SimplyAmorous and FaithfulWife are both HD; though I don't think either of them was in a sex starved marriage.

So you're not an albino tiger, or anything like that. And even if you were; that's a very exotic creature to be.

I don't think I am an HD woman; except in relation to my husband for the past few years. Which is all that matters; it's all relative.

I've considered that too; as I read other people's stories. We did have a fairly active sex life for most of our marriage. It had it's problems; but lack of desire on either side was not one of them.

Perhaps that's why I'm not one of the folks who considers divorce to be an option; I had better times sexually. We're older now (50's), and time has started to take it's toll. My husband is 5 years older than me. Who knows where I'll be at in 5 years.


Don't think of your body as betraying you. Sex is a combination of a lot of things: your age and overall state of health, hormone levels, mental and emotional well-being. To have a sex drive is to be alive. And to want that sexual comfort and connection makes you loving and healthy.

Abuse is never okay, though.:frown2:


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## sixty-eight

notmyrealname4 said:


> Lol, well the title of the thread is The Sex Starved Wife :wink2:, so I think it's a-okay for you to post whatever you like to on this subject.
> 
> Elegirl is certainly an HD woman, who encountered this problem in her previous marriage. AnonPink too, IIRC.
> 
> SimplyAmorous and FaithfulWife are both HD; though I don't think either of them was in a sex starved marriage.
> 
> So you're not an albino tiger, or anything like that. And even if you were; that's a very exotic creature to be.
> 
> I don't think I am an HD woman; except in relation to my husband for the past few years. Which is all that matters; it's all relative.
> 
> I've considered that too; as I read other people's stories. We did have a fairly active sex life for most of our marriage. It had it's problems; but lack of desire on either side was not one of them.
> 
> Perhaps that's why I'm not one of the folks who considers divorce to be an option; I had better times sexually. We're older now (50's), and time has started to take it's toll. My husband is 5 years older than me. Who knows where I'll be at in 5 years.
> 
> Don't think of your body as betraying you. Sex is a combination of a lot of things: your age and overall state of health, hormone levels, mental and emotional well-being. To have a sex drive is to be alive. And to want that sexual comfort and connection makes you loving and healthy.
> 
> Abuse is never okay, though.:frown2:


lol. an albino tiger. I got a kick out of reading this. Of course I can post whatever I want, but IMO, i'm out of my SSM, and speaking of past experiences, not looking for current help. When i was still in it, i had no problem posting anywhere and everywhere i thought i could get assistance/answers.


----------



## notmyrealname4

@sixty-eight


Oh no, it's the opposite. We need to hear from women who have gone through the fire, so to speak.

This site would be nothing if it weren't for people contributing their hard-won experience and wisdom.


Hope things are looking up for you.


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## EleGirl

sixty-eight said:


> i'm glad to see women responding to this. Sometimes i laughingly wonder to myself if maybe I had a sex drive transplant with an 18 year old male donor, because a lot of the time i relate better to the male HD OP's looking for answers about non compatible drives, or manipulative withholding. I don't want to derail the sex starved wife thread with stuff that few women will be able to relate to.
> 
> I feel like I have had an off the norm experience (male LD controlling withholder/SSM/abusive/HD female)
> I used to hate that it didn't matter to my sex drive that he treated me badly. Sometimes, i needed physical reassurance _because _he had treated me badly. I felt really confused by that, like my body was betraying me, like my sex drive should have shut off in response to him. Like my body is an idiot.


This is THE SEX STRAVED WIFE thread. Unfortunately it's turning into the sex starved man's thread which is not it purpose. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of such threads on TAM.

You are far from unique in being a woman who is HD. Many of the women on TAM are. Most of the women who come here complaining about being sex starved are HD. That's why we have this thread. To help those women find resources. 

Maybe it's time to resurrect another thread about women on TAM and sex.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/236514-women-whats-your-sex-drive-like.html


.


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## MrsHolland

Thanks for getting the thread back on track EG.

I have a question for women that were in a sex starved relationship and then moved on to a new relationship.......

Did you go through a period where any hint of rejection was blown out of proportion? MrH and I have been together for some time now, there were big issues on my side at the start with fear of being rejected. He has been amazing and those fears have largely gone.

But recently something happened that took me right back to the good old days, I over reacted to something I saw as his lack of enthusiasm for a suggestion I made. He feels terrible, I feel like sitting in my corner and shutting him out. It will be resolved but there is something comfortable about feeling this pain and hiding behind it. Does anyone understand, relate?


----------



## EleGirl

MrsHolland,

When I remarried there was no issue because there was no rejection.... at first. It was 5 years on when I suddenly realized that he was not initiating any more. It was all me. So I stopped initiating. I tried talking to him about it. The talk went nowhere. So that was the end of our sex life.

I divorced him. Was not going to play that game again.


----------



## MrsHolland

EleGirl said:


> MrsHolland,
> 
> When I remarried there was no issue because there was no rejection.... at first. It was 5 years on when I suddenly realized that he was not initiating any more. It was all me. So I stopped initiating. I tried talking to him about it. The talk went nowhere. So that was the end of our sex life.
> 
> I divorced him. Was not going to play that game again.


There is no rejection in this relationship so that is something I appreciate  Trying to stop myself going into a bit of a spiral with this, sorry it is hard to explain. I made a suggestion that I thought was a fun idea, he said yes but that was it no conversation about it. Just need a slap upside the head to snap out of this so I don't self sabotage. 

I guess the real question is, do other women carry around the past pain of rejection? Why does it feel like a bit of a comfort zone?


----------



## sixty-eight

EleGirl said:


> You are far from unique in being a woman who is HD. Many of the women on TAM are. Most of the women who come here complaining about being sex starved are HD. That's why we have this thread. To help those women find resources.


I realize that. That is not what I said, or meant. I meant i think my perspective is in a minority on TAM because of having the four different factors I mentioned at the same time. Not for being high drive.
And I don't mean unique as in special and celebrated. I meant (and stated) unique as in, i don't think it should be a focal point on this thread.
I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough, and you misunderstood.

I do apologize for contributing to the threadjack though.


----------



## EleGirl

sixty-eight said:


> I realize that. That is not what I said, or meant. I meant i think my perspective is in a minority on TAM because of having the four different factors I mentioned at the same time. Not for being high drive.
> And I don't mean unique as in special and celebrated. I meant (and stated) unique as in, i don't think it should be a focal point on this thread.
> I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough, and you misunderstood.
> 
> I do apologize for contributing to the threadjack though.


"I feel like I have had an off the norm experience (male LD controlling withholder/SSM/abusive/HD female)"

You mean those things?

What is "SSM" in this context??


----------



## sixty-eight

EleGirl said:


> "I feel like I have had an off the norm experience (male LD controlling withholder/SSM/abusive/HD female)"
> 
> You mean those things?
> 
> What is "SSM" in this context??


Yes, i do mean those things. I mean all four of those things at once. All at the same time, in my only marriage Not only being physically/sexually/financially/emotionally abused. Not only being with a withholder, not only being high drive, not only having a low drive spouse, not only being in a Sex Starved Marriage.

I believe that's off the norm for TAM as a whole. I personally haven't seen more than a few posters with those specific problems all together, and some of those women aren't here anymore or don't post.
But if you have, i'd love to read their threads.

Do you have some suggestions @EleGirl? I've already read all I could find, but i'd love your input. I respect your opinion.


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## Red Sonja

sixty-eight said:


> I feel like I have had an off the norm experience (male LD controlling withholder/SSM/abusive/HD female)
> I used to hate that it didn't matter to my sex drive that he treated me badly. Sometimes, i needed physical reassurance _because _he had treated me badly. I felt really confused by that, like my body was betraying me, like my sex drive should have shut off in response to him. Like my body is an idiot.


It may not be the norm but you are not alone in this. I was in the same situation and can relate to every word above.


----------



## notmyrealname4

MrsHolland said:


> I have a question for women that were in a sex starved relationship and then moved on to a new relationship.......
> 
> Did you go through a period where any hint of rejection was blown out of proportion? MrH and I have been together for some time now, there were big issues on my side at the start with fear of being rejected. He has been amazing and those fears have largely gone.
> 
> *But recently something happened that took me right back to the good old days,* I over reacted to something I saw as his lack of enthusiasm for a suggestion I made. He feels terrible, I feel like sitting in my corner and shutting him out. It will be resolved but there is something comfortable about feeling this pain and hiding behind it. Does anyone understand, relate?





MrsHolland said:


> There is no rejection in this relationship so that is something I appreciate  Trying to stop myself going into a bit of a spiral with this, sorry it is hard to explain. I made a suggestion that I thought was a fun idea, he said yes but that was it no conversation about it. Just need a slap upside the head to snap out of this so I don't self sabotage.
> 
> I guess the real question is, *do other women carry around the past pain of rejection? Why does it feel like a bit of a comfort zone?*


I have never been in a sex starved marriage; then moved onto a new relationship. But I *think* I can relate to what you mean.

When I was young (like 11,12) I was very, very awkward. I was one of the last girls to develop, get my period. I was too tall, painfully skinny. I had crooked teeth. Blah, blah, blah.

Fast forward . . .meeting and being with my husband, starting at 19 really helped me to feel more confident. And he was a fault finder, for sure. But his criticisms were nothing like the horrors of being young. That sinking feeling when you walk past a group of boys at school that you know are going to say horrible things to you.

Having my husband's interest in me and sex drop off steeply the last few years has been like taking the Tardis back to the bad old days. I know that logically that is idiotic. But it just goes to show you that what happens to you when you are very young never really fades away. It's hard not to wallow in self-hatred; thinking awful, self-pitying things about how undesirable I've been my whole life, and of course my husband is going to lose interest in me---I'm lucky he ever showed any interest in me in the first place. I have thoughts like that.

Don't have an answer or solution. But I think that's what you might be talking about, MrsHolland.


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## EleGirl

sixty-eight said:


> Yes, i do mean those things. I mean all four of those things at once. All at the same time, in my only marriage Not only being physically/sexually/financially/emotionally abused. Not only being with a withholder, not only being high drive, not only having a low drive spouse, not only being in a Sex Starved Marriage.
> 
> I believe that's off the norm for TAM as a whole. I personally haven't seen more than a few posters with those specific problems all together, and some of those women aren't here anymore or don't post.
> But if you have, i'd love to read their threads.
> 
> Do you have some suggestions @EleGirl? I've already read all I could find, but i'd love your input. I respect your opinion.


I had the same situation. We have women coming here often who are in the same situation. That's why I started this thread--for people to post things that they think would help women in this sort of situation.

Is it unique? It's as unique as women whose husband's are making their marriage sexless. That's about 10% of all marriages. I'm guessing at 10% because stats say that 20% of all marriages are sexless. And men are as likely to make a marriage sexless as women are. So 10% makes sense.

Do I have any suggestions? Did you read the books that I posted about in the first post on the thread? That's my suggested starting place.

At some point, each woman in this sort of situation needs to decide what she is willing to live with. 

Abuse is definitely not something anyone should live with. So if there is abuse, give him one chance to fix his behavior. If he does not, get out. It only gets worse.

Then you (generic you) have to decide if he's really LD or is he being passive aggressive and using withholding sex as a way to punish you because he's harboring anger and resentment. If he's not really LD.... give him once chance to fix his passive aggressive nonsense. If he does not, get out. It's a form of abuse to use sex as a passive aggressive punishment.

Now if you are still in the marriage, assuming you'd have dumped an abuser and/or passive aggressive game player work together to either fix the marriage and sex life. If he's truly LD, decide if you can live with that. And negotiate a marriage you can both live with.


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## EleGirl

sixty-eight said:


> Do you have some suggestions @EleGirl? I've already read all I could find, but i'd love your input. I respect your opinion.


What have you already read?


----------



## sixty-eight

sixty-eight said:


> Yes, i do mean those things. I mean all four of those things at once. All at the same time, in my only marriage Not only being physically/sexually/financially/emotionally abused. Not only being with a withholder, not only being high drive, not only having a low drive spouse, not only being in a Sex Starved Marriage.
> 
> I believe that's off the norm for TAM as a whole. I personally haven't seen more than a few posters with those specific problems all together, and some of those women aren't here anymore or don't post.
> *But if you have, i'd love to read their threads.
> Do you have some suggestions * @EleGirl? I've already read all I could find, but i'd love your input. I respect your opinion.


No, i didn't ask for book suggestions.
I have read several of those books though, thank you.

And thank you for the advice.


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## EleGirl

sixty-eight said:


> No, i didn't ask for book suggestions.
> 
> I have read several of those books though, thank you.
> 
> And thank you for the advice.


I did give some advice a few posts back.

While you might not be asking for books, the reason that they are listed in the first post on this thread is that it can be a very complicated situation for a woman stuck in a sexless marriage. Most women have no clue where to start getting help. So the books have a lot of info up front to get women started in figuring out what they can and cannot do to fix things.


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## sixty-eight

EleGirl said:


> I did give some advice a few posts back.
> 
> While you might not be asking for books, the reason that they are listed in the first post on this thread is that it can be a very complicated situation for a woman stuck in a sexless marriage. Most women have no clue where to start getting help. So the books have a lot of info up front to get women started in figuring out what they can and cannot do to fix things.


I agree. Books are a wonderful resource, if that's what you are looking for. Thank you again for the advice.


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## MrsHolland

sixty-eight said:


> lol. an albino tiger. I got a kick out of reading this. Of course I can post whatever I want, but IMO,* i'm out of my SSM, and speaking of past experiences, not looking for current help.* When i was still in it, i had no problem posting anywhere and everywhere i thought i could get assistance/answers.


I'm out of mine too, thank the Universe  There was no abuse or the other issues you dealt with but the fall out was terrible. My health suffered greatly as did my self esteem.

You may not be looking for current help but it is good if you and others tell your stories so women that are currently going through this can see they are not alone, some abnormal person. I wish I knew back then that it was so common for men to be the LD or withholder, that it wasn't all on me. The part I never understood was that I am attractive, well kept and a good person. I had never had a shortage of male attention and I enjoy sex greatly. When I read some of the stories here of women going through this now I want to shake them and tell them to get out ASAP.

But after all of that I do not live with regrets, it was a huge life lesson and after divorce I no longer took it for granted that all men are capable of a healthy sex life. It gave me great incentive to actually consider sexual compatibility in my post divorce life. Now I covet what I have with my SO, it is never something I will take for granted.


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## PieceOfSky

sixty-eight said:


> Sometimes I wonder if my FOO issues (growing up with several disordered in my immediate family and daily life) Made me more likely to accept sub par treatment in my marriage.
> Treatment such as sexlessness/control/baseless punishment/abuse.
> I know there were other factors: general stubbornness, lack of options, marriage vows, trauma bonding. But I believe my FOO to be at the root of my decisions to stay.
> 
> I also wonder if it made me a target for that kind of person, or more susceptible to the love bombing or both.
> 
> Anyone else wonder that? If FOO issues (of any kind) led you to try to cope and work on your sexless marriage instead of leaving it?


I feel pretty strongly that is the case for me, for multiple reasons.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FeministInPink

MrsHolland said:


> Thanks for getting the thread back on track EG.
> 
> I have a question for women that were in a sex starved relationship and then moved on to a new relationship.......
> 
> Did you go through a period where any hint of rejection was blown out of proportion? MrH and I have been together for some time now, there were big issues on my side at the start with fear of being rejected. He has been amazing and those fears have largely gone.
> 
> But recently something happened that took me right back to the good old days, I over reacted to something I saw as his lack of enthusiasm for a suggestion I made. He feels terrible, I feel like sitting in my corner and shutting him out. It will be resolved but there is something comfortable about feeling this pain and hiding behind it. Does anyone understand, relate?


I was sex-starved in my former marriage. I think my XH is/was LD, but he was definitely passive-aggressively withholding as a way to punish/control me.

In my current relationship with Real Estate (my TAM nickname for my beau)--my first REAL relationship since my divorce--we did have some such issues, a few months in (we've been together almost 8 months now). He has a similar sex drive to mine (we are both HD). I spend most weekends at his place, and our current record is 12 times over a weekend. However, his desire can be influenced much more by his mood than mine is. Even if I'm in a bad mood, stressed, or tired, I'm still ready to go--partly because I know that sex will make me feel better. But if he's stressed or in a bad mood, well, he's not in the mood.

He knew about my previous marriage being sex-starved, but I don't really think he understood how that had affected me and how much of a sensitive wound/scar it was for me until we went nearly two weeks without. (Before this, there were a few singular instances in which I got overly worked up over some small perceived rejection, but those blew over fairly quickly. But it was clear evidence tht rejection is a big trigger for me.) He wasn't actively rejecting me over this two week--it was just the perfect storm of houseguests, periods, and schedules--and when we finally got together, he wasn't in the mood because he'd had a really bad day, and his decline was a little insensitive. So it turned into a big fight. 

But our big fights always turn into productive conversations, and he finally realized what a big deal this was for me. Given my past experience, part of me is hypervigilant about certain things, especially the type of warning signs that I missed with my XH. And we talked about it at great length, how each of us viewed this short-term drought, and it turned out that we viewed it very differently, due in large part to our previous experiences. Because he was never sex-starved--up until the day his XW left, they were still having sex 2-3 times per week--he viewed this as a simple ebb-and-flow created by outside circumstances, and while not having sex in two weeks bothered him, he knew we would be together again soon enough, which kept him from getting upset about it. (Which, to me, read like he couldn't care less, which read like he wasn't invested.) But because of my experience, it triggered a massive panic in me, which in turn caused me to question our entire relationship. (Which, to him, read like I was being petulant and immature, when I was really triggering severely and panicking.)

So, now... if he has to decline for any reason, he does so in a very loving and affectionate manner so I know it's not a REJECTION, which keeps me from going into a panic and questioning my very existence. And if it's been a while for us because of those outside forces, he makes sure that I know he's missing the sex, too, and that he can't wait to see me again. And then he orders me to go play with my vibrator  

All of this really helps me a lot, and while I'm not totally over it--rejection may always be a trigger for me--I can feel myself healing in this relationship. The fact that I am increasingly emotionally secure with him is making a big difference, as well 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## MrsHolland

I can really relate FIP. It took the love and commitment of a wonderful man to get me through the worst of it. I still trigger occasionally now even after 6 years but it is mostly perceived rejection. 
Early on in the piece MrH wrote me a letter that I kept in my bedside draw, short form "I love you with all I have, I desire you but I am tired right now. Let me rest and I will be all yours shortly". I love this man.

Funny thing is that I never realised there would be fallout until I actually fell in love. Prior to that it was some great guys but no emotional involvement. When I was in love the flood gates of vulnerabiity burst open. 

Hang in there FIP, let time heal the wounds, you are worth it


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## PieceOfSky

FeministInPink and Mrs Holland,

Very meaningful posts. Thanks for sharing. It is good to hear empathetic partners exist, can respond lovingly to the other's inner state once known (having sought to understand it). It's good to hear worrisome and painful tensions can sometimes be resolved in ways both partners feel more at ease, safer, and loved.

That's the way it ought to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FeministInPink

MrsHolland said:


> Funny thing is that I never realised there would be fallout until I actually fell in love. Prior to that it was some great guys but no emotional involvement. When I was in love the flood gates of vulnerabiity burst open.


Yes, THIS. All of this, exactly what I've experienced/am experiencing. Real Estate is going through a similar experience--I'm the first woman he's been seriously involved with since his divorce 5 yrs ago. He's been much more guarded and hesitant than I have been, but he is slowly opening up more and more.

He has been incredibly patient and caring with me. We've discovered a number of little land mines and triggers that I didn't know that I had (and for him, as well) and we are working through them together.



MrsHolland said:


> Hang in there FIP, let time heal the wounds, you are worth it


I am watching it happen. I will always be a work in progress, and I'm ok with that. Thank you <3



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## EleGirl

I'm bumping this up to the top for one of our members.


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## AVR1962

I believe I responded to this when it was first posted. I was one of them. There were things about my husband I did not understand at first and I never got clarity even after 27 years with the man. I know alot of people say here that a man will pursue a woman if they are interested and you will know their interest but I didn't with him. He was very hands off. I was the one who made the first sexual advancement and that was the way it remained. When I asked him why he didn't come to me he always had some reason. If I didn't go to him he would then get upset with me but he didn't approach me. He withdrew from me and even withheld. At the same time he was chasing other women. When I say chasing other women I do mean that he was trying to engage him with his humor like he did with me and was seeking women to IM on the computer and looking up porn. He became obsessed with these women he was trying to get to talk to him. With one it was mutual and an emotional affair (all he would admit to) blossomed all the while denying it to me. It was obvious. He claimed later than when she started talking about sex he backed away. 

When these things played out in front of my eyes I was hurt, could not understand what he didn't see in me, why he wasn't showing interest in me and I would try harder to get his attention. With time I realized he had a problem and the problem seemed to be control. The problem never changed even with counseling. I felt I was no more than a housekeeper, cook and nanny to him....a mere convenience. After 27 years of feeling rejected, unloved and unappreciated I left knowing I had tried my best and that I would never find love in my relationship with this man. He did not even blink an eye or question my actions. Never once asked me to reconsider, there was never an apology. I heard from friends he was crying, saying he loved me but he did not show that to me.


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## FeministInPink

@AVR1962 Sounds like my XH in a number of ways, esp that last sentence. My XH never once apologized for or acknowledged the horrible way he treated me, but I heard that he was telling everyone that would listen how much he loved me and how I broke his heart. He was always more interested in perception than reality.


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## EleGirl

AVR1962 said:


> I believe I responded to this when it was first posted. I was one of them. There were things about my husband I did not understand at first and I never got clarity even after 27 years with the man. I know alot of people say here that a man will pursue a woman if they are interested and you will know their interest but I didn't with him. He was very hands off. I was the one who made the first sexual advancement and that was the way it remained. When I asked him why he didn't come to me he always had some reason. If I didn't go to him he would then get upset with me but he didn't approach me. He withdrew from me and even withheld. At the same time he was chasing other women. When I say chasing other women I do mean that he was trying to engage him with his humor like he did with me and was seeking women to IM on the computer and looking up porn. He became obsessed with these women he was trying to get to talk to him. With one it was mutual and an emotional affair (all he would admit to) blossomed all the while denying it to me. It was obvious. He claimed later than when she started talking about sex he backed away.
> 
> When these things played out in front of my eyes I was hurt, could not understand what he didn't see in me, why he wasn't showing interest in me and I would try harder to get his attention. *With time I realized he had a problem and the problem seemed to be control.* The problem never changed even with counseling. I felt I was no more than a housekeeper, cook and nanny to him....a mere convenience. After 27 years of feeling rejected, unloved and unappreciated I left knowing I had tried my best and that I would never find love in my relationship with this man. He did not even blink an eye or question my actions. Never once asked me to reconsider, there was never an apology. I heard from friends he was crying, saying he loved me but he did not show that to me.


Some time ago, I read that a good number of men withhold sex as a passive aggressive way to punish/control their wife. Sounds like this might have been the issue with him. (Wish I could remember which book that was.)


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## FeministInPink

EleGirl said:


> Some time ago, I read that a good number of men withhold sex as a passive aggressive way to punish/control their wife. Sounds like this might have been the issue with him. (Wish I could remember which book that was.)


This was what my XH did. Is the book "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men"?

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## muiscq

I am a man that went through something like this with my ex wife.. and now I have a pattern for 2 years now that I can't get enough of.. I talked with her about this and she knows what I know; this sex life is a little much at times.. There have been times when stress and life interfere but the interest is always there. What I can say between the two is that you have to be with someone that is on the same level as you are. You can not make someone enjoy sex like you do. This to me is the most important aspect of what I went through. My ex wife always need 4play to get in the mode. Now I will say this 4 play is in the mind not the body. In your comment you talk about blame him/her! Most people know what the other person wants and if a person can not provide that then talk about it. 

Men want to know that they are satisfying there pattern. AND believe me we know when something is off. Women its hard for me to have sex when the mode is off. I tell you this, rub your arm for 20 mins in the same place and tell me what you feel. Sure I can get a hard on but that doesn't mean anything.. With age it gets worst. 

I would say get to the root problem of it by talking. If this is how its always been then it not going to change. If this is something new then talk maybe stress, age, life...


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## EleGirl

FeministInPink said:


> This was what my XH did. Is the book "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men"?


My ex (son's father) did that was well.

No, that was not the book.


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## EleGirl

muiscq said:


> I am a man that went through something like this with my ex wife.. and now I have a pattern for 2 years now that I can't get enough of.. I talked with her about this and she knows what I know; this sex life is a little much at times.. There have been times when stress and life interfere but the interest is always there. What I can say between the two is that you have to be with someone that is on the same level as you are. You can not make someone enjoy sex like you do. This to me is the most important aspect of what I went through. My ex wife always need 4play to get in the mode. Now I will say this 4 play is in the mind not the body. In your comment you talk about blame him/her! Most people know what the other person wants and if a person can not provide that then talk about it.
> 
> Men want to know that they are satisfying there pattern. AND believe me we know when something is off. Women its hard for me to have sex when the mode is off. I tell you this, rub your arm for 20 mins in the same place and tell me what you feel. Sure I can get a hard on but that doesn't mean anything.. With age it gets worst.
> 
> I would say get to the root problem of it by talking. If this is how its always been then it not going to change. If this is something new then talk maybe stress, age, life...


In order to talk about this (or any topic) both parties have to be willing to talk. After talking, both parties have to be willing to work on the things that were talked about and meet each others needs. If one of the parties will not do things, nothing will ever be fixed.

This thread is about and for women whose husbands will not talk about the issues and will not work together to fix them.

I guess you missed that.


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## muiscq

Hmmm... really. no I did not miss that at all. Just thought it would be nice to give my opinion on what I went through. Because its what I did "AS A MAN" and way I felt like it wasn't working, 

To answer your statement. This is true that both sides need to have a open talk.. But before any of that can happen a person needs to do some self thought on what they want. talking in the moment or not getting to root cause of the issue is pointless as well. 

Self note.. It wasn't my ex wife's fault that I didn't want sex or like sex with her. It wasn't something that worked for us, and not without trying. I find it funny that with my current pattern that its so easy and fun. With no limit to what we do.. 

So again I will say what I found to work for me.. Be truthful with ones self and have a conversation with the source of the issue. Maybe he needs to do some self thought... maybe its not him or her but something else. Im not going to pretend to know but something is there.


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## EmmaElla

Hi, I am also in a sexless marriage, I posted a thread about it here. However, the problems now go beyond just the relationship being sexless. How do you make the transition when you have kids? I don't think i can stay, but i fear for my child, Causing her any harm. I have read many articles about staying married for the kids, how much better their upbringing is because of a stable home. But, i have also read that staying married for the kids is not the answer or healthy for anyone involve. 

I have been beating myself up about what to do, I cry every night not knowing where to go with this. I feel anger towards him for letting it get this far, but what is done is done. I no longer feel the same towards him, but it's hard making a decision. Also, I am afraid of never finding that kind of relationship. Not perfect, but just a good man, that loves me and wants me in every single way. Is that possible? What helped you make your decision and do right by your kids? No one i know understands what i am going through, i keep getting the same "try harder" "maybe focus your attention in something else" "marriage counseling" and while marriage counseling would of been the right thing to do in the beginning, i no longer care for it.


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## AVR1962

EleGirl said:


> Some time ago, I read that a good number of men withhold sex as a passive aggressive way to punish/control their wife. Sounds like this might have been the issue with him. (Wish I could remember which book that was.)


Oh, absolutely!!


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## AVR1962

EmmaElla said:


> Hi, I am also in a sexless marriage, I posted a thread about it here. However, the problems now go beyond just the relationship being sexless. How do you make the transition when you have kids? I don't think i can stay, but i fear for my child, Causing her any harm. I have read many articles about staying married for the kids, how much better their upbringing is because of a stable home. But, i have also read that staying married for the kids is not the answer or healthy for anyone involve.
> 
> I have been beating myself up about what to do, I cry every night not knowing where to go with this. I feel anger towards him for letting it get this far, but what is done is done. I no longer feel the same towards him, but it's hard making a decision. Also, I am afraid of never finding that kind of relationship. Not perfect, but just a good man, that loves me and wants me in every single way. Is that possible? What helped you make your decision and do right by your kids? No one i know understands what i am going through, I keep getting the same "try harder" "maybe focus your attention in something else" "marriage counseling" and while marriage counseling would of been the right thing to do in the beginning, i no longer care for it.


Emma, your words are the very thoughts I had several years back before I left. I recall telling a good friend that I vowed to stay until our child graduated and boy was that statement powerful because that is exactly what I did but the marriage was dead long before I finally left. My fear of leaving before our daughter was an adult was that my ex (now) would try to convince her that I was a bad person. I waited til she was ready to leave home and then asked if she would mind me joining her. We now live together, she is 20 and doing very well.

I don't think there is a magical answer but you have to ask yourself what justice are you doing yourself and your children by staying with a man you no longer love. You become roommates but what kind of existence is that? You are staying for your mutual interest in the children but beyond that what do you have together?

Personally, I know I was not mentally/emotionally prepared to leave any earlier than I did and if I had I probably would have gone back to him. When I left I knew it had to be for good because I knew he had not treated me well and I had endured something that was very unhealthy. Like you, I wanted to loved and feel love again and I knew that I would feel that with my husband so after 17 years with this man I loaded a moving van and I left with my daughter. I had no idea what life was going to look like on the other side but I knew I could no longer stay. It's been almost 9 months, 9 very fast months and life has been fast paced trying to put down new roots but I made the best choice of my life by leaving. I reflect now I cannot believe what I endured.

I have started dating and there are good guys out there. I can say I am loving hearing the kind words from these gentlemen's mouths....I sure did not get it in my marriage.


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## AVR1962

FeministInPink said:


> @AVR1962 Sounds like my XH in a number of ways, esp that last sentence. My XH never once apologized for or acknowledged the horrible way he treated me, but I heard that he was telling everyone that would listen how much he loved me and how I broke his heart. He was always more interested in perception than reality.


It's called narcissism....they have to maintain their face so they are broken hearted to their friends but they are hateful or will ignore their spouse(ex). They are not accountable for their actions and they will throw you under the bus in a heart beat to save their own hide.


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## FeministInPink

AVR1962 said:


> It's called narcissism....they have to maintain their face so they are broken hearted to their friends but they are hateful or will ignore their spouse(ex). They are not accountable for their actions and they will throw you under the bus in a heart beat to save their own hide.


Ding ding ding!!! That's definitely it, but it's not news to me... I figured it out a long time ago.

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## MEM2020

Uhtred,

Incredibly common phenomenon. Essentially shows that the security system is far more powerful than the recreation 'seeking' system. 




uhtred said:


> Its poison, very similar to the one I am swallowing. The problem is that there is a lot more to marriage than sex. A bad sex life really hurts a marriage, but after decades of marriage, it may still be better than the alternatives.
> 
> Its easy to find someone who is happy to have lots of passionate sex. What is not easy is finding someone with whom the rest of the marriage would be as good and the morality of divorcing someone who has in on way been deceptive is very questionable.
> 
> Do I abandon my wife of 30 years for someone else who will give me a good sex life? I couldn't live with myself if I did that.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

uhtred said:


> Its poison, very similar to the one I am swallowing. The problem is that there is a lot more to marriage than sex. A bad sex life really hurts a marriage, but after decades of marriage, it may still be better than the alternatives.
> 
> Its easy to find someone who is happy to have lots of passionate sex. What is not easy is finding someone with whom the rest of the marriage would be as good and the morality of divorcing someone who has in on way been deceptive is very questionable.
> 
> Do I abandon my wife of 30 years for someone else who will give me a good sex life? I couldn't live with myself if I did that.


Wow! Like looking in a mirror, right down to the 30 year timeline. Situation and response very similar.

I suppose I should be thankful it isn't completely sexless for me an that once in a blue moon it actually is enthusiastic, but that's very rare, and even when it is enthusiastic, it still always basic vanilla.


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## TheCuriousWife

Lurk lurk.

Glad to see this thread still going.  What a wonderful bunch of women. Great support here.


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## JessicaA

Hello, I'm new to the forum / this thread so not had a chance to read many of the replies but I have to express this somewhere ... before my husband and I got married (3years ago) our sex life was beginning to diminish but I was hopeful it wouldn't remain like this. My husband started on anti depressants about a year ago, at first it felt like once we got married he became depressed  but I now recognise he does live with depression and he says the meds help, I'm not sure I see the difference but anyway. The side effects of his meds meant he completely lost the desire to have sex and maintain an erection, so add that to a dwindling sex life and things are not good. In terms of why he became disinterested initially he says is nothing to do with me but that it's became less important for him and his desire was naturally diminishing, but he maintains he still finds me attractive and sexy. He's been to his doctor about this who just changed the medication that made no difference at all. I miss sex with him so much it makes me weep, I miss being desired, I don't feel attractive and I've tried to discuss it with him so much but feel I get nowhere. I feel terrible telling him some of my thoughts - divorce, separation, affairs, all to get him to realise this is serious, yes we have a good life but that doesn't mean I never want sex again. I fear if we don't resolve this, even if he gains the desire again it'll feel weird, like a stranger or friend, I don't want sex with a friend, I want sex with my husband, lover, partner, but we are becoming just friends. I don't truly believe I'd ever cheat (though I know I'm getting close because the reality is I do flirt online and then some with strangers on Tumblr - which isn't okay, I really do know this, I hate myself when I do it and it's not a regular thing) anyway I digress, I don't think I'd physically cheat on him, not that this is an option, I'm hardly surrounded with men who want sex every day, but there is a part of me that fears I would cheat. I don't know what to do, if he told me he'd thought of leaving me, of cheating on me, I think I'd do something about that so why won't he?! I work in end of life decisions and I've even told him that my biggest fear of him dying is that my only memories left of our marriage would be unhappiness, I do remember the last time we had sex but I almost barely remember when it was good. I asked him if he still masturbates and I was crushed to know he does, so no desire to have sex with me but himself he's okay with, another blow to my self esteem. He said though that when he cums it's not the same, so he's not particularly enjoying masturbation even if he does it. I've run out of ideas as to what to do. I regret the things I've said to him about that I think of cheating but then when I 'get over' the guilt all I can think is 'wow, not even that leaves him thinking there's a problem'. I have spelled it out, I've done calm, rational, supportive, I've cried about it in front of him, what else can I do ... I really do not want our marriage to end, I don't honestly feel I could ever love someone else, he is the love of my life but I'm worried I will **** this up on a major scale unless he hears me and addresses this. His doctor told him he should stay on the meds for another year, I cannot take another year, I just can't 😔


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## uhtred

I also answered your other thread and that is probably the best place for discussion.

I just wanted to ask, has he talked to his doctor -maybe there is some other medication he can take?

Doctors often do not pay enough attention to the side effects, especially the psychological side effects of the medication that they prescribe. The antidepressnts may well cure his depression but ruin his marriage and his life. 



JessicaA said:


> snip
> . His doctor told him he should stay on the meds for another year, I cannot take another year, I just can't 😔


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## UnluckyOne

Stumbled upon this thread and shockingly surprised to find so many woman looking for sex from their partners. Aside from the medical disorders or other symptoms which may be evident in some relationships I think most men are very easy when it comes to sex. Here is my take on how to get more sex from your guy (wish my wife was reading this lol) 

Majority of men are visual and we get aroused and excited from vision. It can be something simple as a short skirt or more seductive as lingerie. With that said I get how some guys can be boring and have no imagination. But, that's how you as the lady need to train your man in having one. Me personally it doesn't take much. I see skin and I'm ready. But, I get it some need extra motivation and work. With that said though please DO NOT complicate things. What should I do? What should I wear? How do I engage? What if he turns me down? As I said "most" men are simple. Do not over think what and how or who or where just do it. Here are some tips to help you ladies.


1. Every man (just about every I have known all these years) are either into dress up fantasy. That said you can't go wrong with a fun nurse outfit or heck a school girl. Every guy must have at some point had a fantasy about one or the other. I'll add to this and say be vocal. Nothing more boring then having sex in silence. If you can hear the crickets outside on a summer night with windows open then ya you need to step up your game. This is something I know for a fact woman struggle with. They feel either uncomfortable or maybe even dirty. There are books about this and many many sites online. So if you need the help of what to say or how to say it help is right around the corner. Note that while men do like to be in control there is nothing sexier then a woman taking the control and being vocal about it. Get on your knees and stick out your tongue. Okay I'll stop there (Is it getting hot in here or is it just me =)

2. Toys !!! Saw this in another post but yes this helps. If you man is not a typical porn movie goer who likes to try fun things and be creative then make it creative for him. I myself hate sex stores I dont know why but I feel dirty when I go. So I'd say go online pick up a few things and try it out with your partner. Don't expect or pressure him to go with you. Maybe later on it's a good suggestion but for starters why not have it shipped over.

3. Watch porn !!!!!! No not together no not a date night but alone. I dont want to sound like a male ***** but I dated good amount of ladies and I can't begin to explain how poorly some were in bed. There was a time where one had to go to a video store in some secluded xxx only section with weird guys looking at you to rent porn. Now it's called internet and for starters try redtube.com If you're new to porn just search most viewed or highest rated and take notes. Not going to say your partner is going to enjoy every move and porn move. But, it will give you ideas and make you more...... adventurous. Maybe your husband thinks you're boring in bed? Maybe he sex is dull? So spice it up and see what happens. As I always say you gotta try it to see if you like it right?

4. "Sexchat" This goes back to my original men are visual creatures post. Try it and see if it helps. Send him a message that you can't wait to "fill the blanks" Make it dirty please! Don't text something like I can't wait till you get home to make love haha Make it naughty and dirty. If you're really having fun and want to explore send him a picture with the post. I bet he will be looking at the clock and counting down the minutes.


5. Go to a strip club. Chances are he has been to one or many. Unless he's some pastor who is against nudity most likely your husband has been to a bachelor party with some naked girls running around. Again this all goes down to the visual stage. Some guys are visual and that extra motivation of two girls dancing around a pole will maybe make him grab you and suggest to go home asap.

So there you have it. Few suggestions from my book to spice up your bedroom life. I'm sure these were also worded and suggested in the 14 pages. But, wanted to chime in and help if I could. Again lucky guys wish my wife was sex starved =)

Have fun !


----------



## Red Sonja

UnluckyOne said:


> 1. Every man (just about every I have known all these years) are either into dress up fantasy. That said you can't go wrong with a fun nurse outfit or heck a school girl. Every guy must have at some point had a fantasy about one or the other. I'll add to this and say be vocal. Nothing more boring then having sex in silence. If you can hear the crickets outside on a summer night with windows open then ya you need to step up your game. This is something I know for a fact woman struggle with. They feel either uncomfortable or maybe even dirty. There are books about this and many many sites online. So if you need the help of what to say or how to say it help is right around the corner. Note that while men do like to be in control there is nothing sexier then a woman taking the control and being vocal about it. Get on your knees and stick out your tongue. Okay I'll stop there (Is it getting hot in here or is it just me =)
> 
> 2. Toys !!! Saw this in another post but yes this helps. If you man is not a typical porn movie goer who likes to try fun things and be creative then make it creative for him. I myself hate sex stores I dont know why but I feel dirty when I go. So I'd say go online pick up a few things and try it out with your partner. Don't expect or pressure him to go with you. Maybe later on it's a good suggestion but for starters why not have it shipped over.
> 
> 3. Watch porn !!!!!! No not together no not a date night but alone. I dont want to sound like a male ***** but I dated good amount of ladies and I can't begin to explain how poorly some were in bed. There was a time where one had to go to a video store in some secluded xxx only section with weird guys looking at you to rent porn. Now it's called internet and for starters try redtube.com If you're new to porn just search most viewed or highest rated and take notes. Not going to say your partner is going to enjoy every move and porn move. But, it will give you ideas and make you more...... adventurous. Maybe your husband thinks you're boring in bed? Maybe he sex is dull? So spice it up and see what happens. As I always say you gotta try it to see if you like it right?
> 
> 4. "Sexchat" This goes back to my original men are visual creatures post. Try it and see if it helps. Send him a message that you can't wait to "fill the blanks" Make it dirty please! Don't text something like I can't wait till you get home to make love haha Make it naughty and dirty. If you're really having fun and want to explore send him a picture with the post. I bet he will be looking at the clock and counting down the minutes.
> 
> 
> 5. Go to a strip club. Chances are he has been to one or many. Unless he's some pastor who is against nudity most likely your husband has been to a bachelor party with some naked girls running around. Again this all goes down to the visual stage. Some guys are visual and that extra motivation of two girls dancing around a pole will maybe make him grab you and suggest to go home asap.


I know you mean well and thank you for the suggestions. Personally I tried them all and more. You see, our sex-avoiding husbands/lovers are not "most men".


----------



## EleGirl

UnluckyOne said:


> Stumbled upon this thread and shockingly surprised to find so many woman looking for sex from their partners. Aside from the medical disorders or other symptoms which may be evident in some relationships I think most men are very easy when it comes to sex. Here is my take on how to get more sex from your guy (wish my wife was reading this lol)
> 
> Majority of men are visual and we get aroused and excited from vision. It can be something simple as a short skirt or more seductive as lingerie. With that said I get how some guys can be boring and have no imagination. But, that's how you as the lady need to train your man in having one. Me personally it doesn't take much. I see skin and I'm ready. But, I get it some need extra motivation and work. With that said though please DO NOT complicate things. What should I do? What should I wear? How do I engage? What if he turns me down? As I said "most" men are simple. Do not over think what and how or who or where just do it. Here are some tips to help you ladies.
> 
> 
> 1. Every man (just about every I have known all these years) are either into dress up fantasy. That said you can't go wrong with a fun nurse outfit or heck a school girl. Every guy must have at some point had a fantasy about one or the other. I'll add to this and say be vocal. Nothing more boring then having sex in silence. If you can hear the crickets outside on a summer night with windows open then ya you need to step up your game. This is something I know for a fact woman struggle with. They feel either uncomfortable or maybe even dirty. There are books about this and many many sites online. So if you need the help of what to say or how to say it help is right around the corner. Note that while men do like to be in control there is nothing sexier then a woman taking the control and being vocal about it. Get on your knees and stick out your tongue. Okay I'll stop there (Is it getting hot in here or is it just me =)
> 
> 2. Toys !!! Saw this in another post but yes this helps. If you man is not a typical porn movie goer who likes to try fun things and be creative then make it creative for him. I myself hate sex stores I dont know why but I feel dirty when I go. So I'd say go online pick up a few things and try it out with your partner. Don't expect or pressure him to go with you. Maybe later on it's a good suggestion but for starters why not have it shipped over.
> 
> 3. Watch porn !!!!!! No not together no not a date night but alone. I dont want to sound like a male ***** but I dated good amount of ladies and I can't begin to explain how poorly some were in bed. There was a time where one had to go to a video store in some secluded xxx only section with weird guys looking at you to rent porn. Now it's called internet and for starters try redtube.com If you're new to porn just search most viewed or highest rated and take notes. Not going to say your partner is going to enjoy every move and porn move. But, it will give you ideas and make you more...... adventurous. Maybe your husband thinks you're boring in bed? Maybe he sex is dull? So spice it up and see what happens. As I always say you gotta try it to see if you like it right?
> 
> 4. "Sexchat" This goes back to my original men are visual creatures post. Try it and see if it helps. Send him a message that you can't wait to "fill the blanks" Make it dirty please! Don't text something like I can't wait till you get home to make love haha Make it naughty and dirty. If you're really having fun and want to explore send him a picture with the post. I bet he will be looking at the clock and counting down the minutes.
> 
> 
> 5. Go to a strip club. Chances are he has been to one or many. Unless he's some pastor who is against nudity most likely your husband has been to a bachelor party with some naked girls running around. Again this all goes down to the visual stage. Some guys are visual and that extra motivation of two girls dancing around a pole will maybe make him grab you and suggest to go home asap.
> 
> So there you have it. Few suggestions from my book to spice up your bedroom life. I'm sure these were also worded and suggested in the 14 pages. But, wanted to chime in and help if I could. Again lucky guys wish my wife was sex starved =)
> 
> Have fun !


I agree with Red Sonja, while you clearly meant well with your post, most women in a sex starved married have tried all, or most of what you suggest to so avail. The problem is clearly far beyond your understanding.


----------



## FeministInPink

I have to echo and say ditto to @Red Sonja and @EleGirl. I tried ALL those suggestions with my XH. Nothing worked.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## Faithful Wife

UnluckyOne said:


> Stumbled upon this thread and shockingly surprised to find so many woman looking for sex from their partners. Aside from the medical disorders or other symptoms which may be evident in some relationships *I think most men are very easy when it comes to sex*. Here is my take on how to get more sex from your guy (wish my wife was reading this lol)
> 
> *Majority of men are visual and we get aroused and excited from vision.* It can be something simple as a short skirt or more seductive as lingerie. With that said I get how some guys can be boring and have no imagination. But, that's how you as the lady need to train your man in having one. Me personally it doesn't take much. *I see skin and I'm ready.* But, I get it some need extra motivation and work. With that said though please DO NOT complicate things. What should I do? What should I wear? How do I engage? What if he turns me down? As I said "most" men are simple. Do not over think what and how or who or where just do it. Here are some tips to help you ladies.
> 
> 
> 1. *Every man (just about every I have known all these years) are either into dress up fantasy*. That said you can't go wrong with a fun nurse outfit or heck a school girl. Every guy must have at some point had a fantasy about one or the other. *I'll add to this and say be vocal*. Nothing more boring then having sex in silence. If you can hear the crickets outside on a summer night with windows open then ya you need to step up your game. This is something I know for a fact woman struggle with. They feel either uncomfortable or maybe even dirty. There are books about this and many many sites online. So if you need the help of what to say or how to say it help is right around the corner. Note that while men do like to be in control there is nothing sexier then a woman taking the control and being vocal about it. Get on your knees and stick out your tongue. Okay I'll stop there (Is it getting hot in here or is it just me =)
> 
> 2. Toys !!! Saw this in another post but yes this helps. If you man is not a typical porn movie goer who likes to try fun things and be creative then make it creative for him. I myself hate sex stores I dont know why but I feel dirty when I go. *So I'd say go online pick up a few things and try it out with your partner*. Don't expect or pressure him to go with you. Maybe later on it's a good suggestion but for starters why not have it shipped over.
> 
> 3. Watch porn !!!!!! No not together no not a date night but alone. I dont want to sound like a male ***** but I dated good amount of ladies and I can't begin to explain how poorly some were in bed. There was a time where one had to go to a video store in some secluded xxx only section with weird guys looking at you to rent porn. Now it's called internet and for starters try redtube.com If you're new to porn just search most viewed or highest rated and take notes. Not going to say your partner is going to enjoy every move and porn move. But, it will give you ideas and make you more...... adventurous. Maybe your husband thinks you're boring in bed? Maybe he sex is dull? So spice it up and see what happens. As I always say you gotta try it to see if you like it right?
> 
> 4. "Sexchat" This goes back to my original men are visual creatures post. Try it and see if it helps. Send him a message that you can't wait to "fill the blanks" Make it dirty please! Don't text something like I can't wait till you get home to make love haha *Make it naughty and dirty.* If you're really having fun and want to explore send him a picture with the post. I bet he will be looking at the clock and counting down the minutes.
> 
> 
> 5. Go to a strip club. Chances are he has been to one or many. Unless he's some pastor who is against nudity most likely your husband has been to a bachelor party with some naked girls running around. Again this all goes down to the visual stage. *Some guys are visual and that extra motivation of two girls dancing around a pole will maybe make him grab you and suggest to go home asap*.
> 
> So there you have it. Few suggestions from my book to spice up your bedroom life. I'm sure these were also worded and suggested in the 14 pages. But, wanted to chime in and help if I could. Again lucky guys wish my wife was sex starved =)
> 
> Have fun !


All of the bolded parts have built in errors in assumption.

You actually want sex with your wife, and it sounds like you'd love more sex than you're actually having. Therefore, you cannot relate to nor speak for a man who DOESN'T want sex with his wife. Yes, I know that to you (and many men) this sounds impossible....a MAN who doesn't want sex with his willing WIFE?!?! WHAT!?!?! Trust us, the wives in that situation are humbled to the core by it, but yes it is a fact for them.

It is true that maybe some men who don't want sex with their wives don't want it because in his view, the wife sucks in bed. Or she isn't sexy enough. Or she doesn't talk dirty enough. Or she hasn't whipped out some toys with him. Or she isn't wanting to only have sex with him because he was turned on by other naked girls while watching porn. Yes, there are some men like this.

But the majority of the wives of men who don't want sex on this thread aren't in that category.

Their men don't want sex for a huge variety of reasons....but mostly it boils down to a fear of intimacy.

Which is a large part of the reason some women don't want sex with their husbands, too.

You can't really "tempt" or seduce someone who fears intimacy. It will just send them running. So calling him up or texting him with dirty sex talk, surprising him with lingerie or toys or porn...these things just make him afraid. Not usually on a conscious level, it goes much deeper than that. So the man won't feel "yikes! She wants intimacy and I'm afraid!" Instead he will feel "sigh, there she goes again, ugh, how do I get out of it...." and if asked why he wants to get out of it he might say "just tired" or "stressed from work" or "didn't we just do it last week?" If it is pointed out to him that he has an excuse most of the time, even though he has promised to try to make time for more sex, he will say "oh so now I'm expected to just put out, even if I'm not feeling well?" or "jeez, way to make this all about you" or some other way to deflect.

If an intimacy avoidant person can become self aware of what they are doing, and if they really have a sexual pulse beneath their fear of intimacy (not all of them do, some also have just an extremely low libido, men and women both), and if they do the work to get past their fears....then sometimes this can be changed around.

Most likely it doesn't happen that way, though. Thus we have pages and pages of stories of frustrated women who rarely get anywhere with this topic.


----------



## MrsHolland

UnluckyOne said:


> Stumbled upon this thread and shockingly surprised to find so many woman looking for sex from their partners. Aside from the medical disorders or other symptoms which may be evident in some relationships I think most men are very easy when it comes to sex. Here is my take on how to get more sex from your guy (wish my wife was reading this lol)
> 
> Majority of men are visual and we get aroused and excited from vision. It can be something simple as a short skirt or more seductive as lingerie. With that said I get how some guys can be boring and have no imagination. But, that's how you as the lady need to train your man in having one. Me personally it doesn't take much. I see skin and I'm ready. But, I get it some need extra motivation and work. With that said though please DO NOT complicate things. What should I do? What should I wear? How do I engage? What if he turns me down? As I said "most" men are simple. Do not over think what and how or who or where just do it. Here are some tips to help you ladies.
> 
> 
> 1. Every man (just about every I have known all these years) are either into dress up fantasy. That said you can't go wrong with a fun nurse outfit or heck a school girl. Every guy must have at some point had a fantasy about one or the other. I'll add to this and say be vocal. Nothing more boring then having sex in silence. If you can hear the crickets outside on a summer night with windows open then ya you need to step up your game. This is something I know for a fact woman struggle with. They feel either uncomfortable or maybe even dirty. There are books about this and many many sites online. So if you need the help of what to say or how to say it help is right around the corner. Note that while men do like to be in control there is nothing sexier then a woman taking the control and being vocal about it. Get on your knees and stick out your tongue. Okay I'll stop there (Is it getting hot in here or is it just me =)
> 
> 2. Toys !!! Saw this in another post but yes this helps. If you man is not a typical porn movie goer who likes to try fun things and be creative then make it creative for him. I myself hate sex stores I dont know why but I feel dirty when I go. So I'd say go online pick up a few things and try it out with your partner. Don't expect or pressure him to go with you. Maybe later on it's a good suggestion but for starters why not have it shipped over.
> 
> 3. Watch porn !!!!!! No not together no not a date night but alone. I dont want to sound like a male ***** but I dated good amount of ladies and I can't begin to explain how poorly some were in bed. There was a time where one had to go to a video store in some secluded xxx only section with weird guys looking at you to rent porn. Now it's called internet and for starters try redtube.com If you're new to porn just search most viewed or highest rated and take notes. Not going to say your partner is going to enjoy every move and porn move. But, it will give you ideas and make you more...... adventurous. Maybe your husband thinks you're boring in bed? Maybe he sex is dull? So spice it up and see what happens. As I always say you gotta try it to see if you like it right?
> 
> 4. "Sexchat" This goes back to my original men are visual creatures post. Try it and see if it helps. Send him a message that you can't wait to "fill the blanks" Make it dirty please! Don't text something like I can't wait till you get home to make love haha Make it naughty and dirty. If you're really having fun and want to explore send him a picture with the post. I bet he will be looking at the clock and counting down the minutes.
> 
> 
> 5. Go to a strip club. Chances are he has been to one or many. Unless he's some pastor who is against nudity most likely your husband has been to a bachelor party with some naked girls running around. Again this all goes down to the visual stage. Some guys are visual and that extra motivation of two girls dancing around a pole will maybe make him grab you and suggest to go home asap.
> 
> So there you have it. Few suggestions from my book to spice up your bedroom life. I'm sure these were also worded and suggested in the 14 pages. But, wanted to chime in and help if I could. Again lucky guys wish my wife was sex starved =)
> 
> Have fun !


Yes perhaps you meant well but you have little understanding of the issues at hand. You also seem to be laying the issue at the feet of the women and don't seem to grasp the fact that there are many men who are LD for a variety of reasons. Please take the time to really read and comprehend that the women in these posts do not need sex tips, they are women that like and want sex.


----------



## uhtred

I think people who have not experienced the situation have trouble believing that some people do not want sex. Even as the HD in a HD/LD relationship it took a very long time for me to understand that this was not something I could change. 

Its the antithesis of the standard romance where someone feels desire and passion when they meet the "right person" or are in the right situation. 

Its complicated because of course in *some* cases the LD person is that way for a reason the HD can fix - where the HD is a terrible lover, or selfish, or physically repulsive, etc etc. In many case though, there is nothing the HD can change that will cause the LD to want sex.


----------



## FeministInPink

uhtred said:


> I think people who have not experienced the situation have trouble believing that some people do not want sex. *Even as the HD in a HD/LD relationship it took a very long time for me to understand that this was not something I could change. *
> 
> Its the antithesis of the standard romance where someone feels desire and passion when they meet the "right person" or are in the right situation.
> 
> Its complicated because of course in *some* cases the LD person is that way for a reason the HD can fix - where the HD is a terrible lover, or selfish, or physically repulsive, etc etc. In many case though, there is nothing the HD can change that will cause the LD to want sex.


Very true. The bolded part really hits home. And because I couldn't change it, I internalized the blame, which made me feel unattractive, unloveable, and worthless.

If LD people understood the amount of pain and torment they inflict on their HD partners, they might actually make an effort. But maybe not. Because it puts the LD person in in control, and does the LD really want to give up that power?


----------



## EleGirl

FeministInPink said:


> Very true. The bolded part really hits home. And because I couldn't change it, I internalized the blame, which made me feel unattractive, unloveable, and worthless.
> 
> If LD people understood the amount of pain and torment they inflict on their HD partners, they might actually make an effort. But maybe not. Because it puts the LD person in in control, and does the LD really want to give up that power?


We also need to keep in mind that sometimes, probably pretty often, the person who appears to be LD in a the marriage is not LD at all. They simply do not want sex with their spouse. 

This book is linked to in the first post on this thread:

Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It

The authors of the book did survey of thousands of men who do not want sex with their wives. Only 3% of them said that they were not interested in sex. 1% said that they are gay. The rest just did not want sex with their wives. In many, if not most of the cases, a large part of the issue is anger at the wife. There are other studies that have been done asking women who appear LD in their marriage… in those studies 70+% of the women say that they are angry at their husbands and thus do not want sex with them. It has nothing to do with libido. Very often, a person who does not want sex with their spouse is having affairs or interested in having an affair.

I think that the idea that many of those who appear to be LD have intimacy issues with their spouse could be right on. Harboring anger at their spouse to justify their lack of desire for sex with their spouse works very well.

As soon as the marriage with a HD/”LD” match ends, what happens? The “LD” person gets into a new relationship and suddenly the “LD” tendencies disappear.

And yes there are some truly LD people, men and women, they are the minority. They are even the minority of those who chose to have little or no sex with their spouse.


----------



## Celtic

I hope that I'm not stepping out of bounds by posting in the Ladies Lounge but I fancied a break from my current nonsense and had a wander in. 

I went through a period of about 2-3 years of having a LD despite normally being very high. The main cause was a decline in testosterone although I didn't notice it at the time as everything else (energy levels, body hair) felt very normal. Prior to the decline in testosterone I'd have erections at least once an hour but during the decline I'd have them once, perhaps twice a day. But because I was still having them in some shape or form, I never made the connection that there was a problem for quite some time. It got so bad that I could no longer hold an erection full enough for penetrative sex or produce semen. It just felt like I was running low on mojo 'downstairs' despite feeling fine everywhere else. Thankfully testosterone injections fixed the issue but they did take a few weeks to kick in and bring the spark back. 

Other issues included a subconscious resentment towards my (then) wife. She had withheld sex so often during the early years of our marriage that part of me hated the idea of her expecting me to perform now when it suited her. What about all the times when I had wanted it but got told no? This lack of sex had also changed the dynamics of our relationship. She was no longer my partner but just a woman I lived with and held no sexual feeling for. That I had to do all the housework on top of working full time just made me see her as a child who needed me to take care of things more than a woman who could meet my needs. She wasn't a bad person but so long without intimacy previously had made me lose interest in her sexually. 

There was also the issue of the sex being somewhat akin to a medical procedure. There was no spontaneity just a schedule posted on the refrigerator door. Only one position was allowed (doggie) and while I like that position usually, the idea of her just lying there in silence while I was expected to get to work was a massive turn off, especially without any sort of foreplay or emotional connection. In her eyes she was giving me sex so I should be happy, in my eyes I was being ordered to perform yet another chore and clean up afterwards.

I know as men we're supposed to appreciate the act of sex but I think more men crave intimacy than they would like to admit. For me its the whole package; the flirting, the teasing, the communication, the love and the sex is the icing on the cake, if one aspect is missing the rest tends to fall apart too and I'm willing to bet that I'm not the only man who thinks like this. I also think that quite a few women apply a 'one size fits all' mentality to their partners just as men do to theirs. E.g. All men like a woman to dress up so he must want me to dress up! All men watch porn so he must want us to watch porn! It just doesn't work like that at all though.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Celtic said:


> I know as men we're supposed to appreciate the act of sex but I think more men crave intimacy than they would like to admit. For me its the whole package; the flirting, the teasing, the communication, the love and the sex is the icing on the cake, if one aspect is missing the rest tends to fall apart too and I'm willing to bet that I'm not the only man who thinks like this.


:iagree:


----------



## Holdingontoit

FeministInPink said:


> Very true. The bolded part really hits home. And because I couldn't change it, I internalized the blame, which made me feel unattractive, unloveable, and worthless.
> 
> If LD people understood the amount of pain and torment they inflict on their HD partners, they might actually make an effort. But maybe not. Because it puts the LD person in in control, and does the LD really want to give up that power?


I don't think it is anywhere near 100% about maintaining control. I think sometimes it is about consequences. The LD cannot accept how much pain they are causing, because then they would feel bad about themselves. Maybe they would feel obliged to provide more sex. Maybe they would feel obliged to divorce their HD spouse. They don't want to do either of those things. The easiest way to resolve the dilemma is to convince themselves that the pain is not actually that all that bad, and that the HD is either being a whiny crybaby or a manipulative jerk. That relieves the LD from responsibility to take actual they prefer not to take. Human ability to rationalize is impressive. 

On both sides. HD's are just as likely to minimize the psychic pain to LDs from consenting to unwanted sex, being pestered for unwanted sex, etc. Rationalizing is an equal opportunity obstacle.

And I agree with @EleGirl that HD and LD are relative to the current partner. Not absolute. Not reflective of libido with another partner. Yes, it is difficult for the HD to accept their spouse has plenty of libido, just doesn't find their current partner attractive. Very painful for the HD to admit that, so they assert the LD lacks libido rather than lacking desire. Very understandable dynamic. But obscures what would be required to resolve the problem.


----------



## EleGirl

Celtic said:


> I hope that I'm not stepping out of bounds by posting in the Ladies Lounge but I fancied a break from my current nonsense and had a wander in.





Celtic said:


> I went through a period of about 2-3 years of having a LD despite normally being very high. The main cause was a decline in testosterone although I didn't notice it at the time as everything else (energy levels, body hair) felt very normal. Prior to the decline in testosterone I'd have erections at least once an hour but during the decline I'd have them once, perhaps twice a day. But because I was still having them in some shape or form, I never made the connection that there was a problem for quite some time. It got so bad that I could no longer hold an erection full enough for penetrative sex or produce semen. It just felt like I was running low on mojo 'downstairs' despite feeling fine everywhere else. Thankfully testosterone injections fixed the issue but they did take a few weeks to kick in and bring the spark back.


When a man stops wanting sex, a health checkup and T level tests is the first thing to look at.


Celtic said:


> Other issues included a subconscious resentment towards my (then) wife. She had withheld sex so often during the early years of our marriage that part of me hated the idea of her expecting me to perform now when it suited her. What about all the times when I had wanted it but got told no? This lack of sex had also changed the dynamics of our relationship. She was no longer my partner but just a woman I lived with and held no sexual feeling for.


I can under how this would eventually lead to you being resentful and not wanting sex with her. I know that when my husband did things like withholding sex and other mind games around sex, it did eventually lead to me being resentful of him. It think it’s a pretty common reaction to a spouse who withholds sex, be that a man or a woman who is doing the withholding.



Celtic said:


> That I had to do all the housework on top of working full time just made me see her as a child who needed me to take care of things more than a woman who could meet my needs. She wasn't a bad person but so long without intimacy previously had made me lose interest in her sexually.


Yea I went through this too. I was the bread winner and did all the housework, childcare and everything else. It’s hard to have much respect for a spouse who takes no responsibly and acts like a child. 



Celtic said:


> There was also the issue of the sex being somewhat akin to a medical procedure. There was no spontaneity just a schedule posted on the refrigerator door. Only one position was allowed (doggie) and while I like that position usually, the idea of her just lying there in silence while I was expected to get to work was a massive turn off, especially without any sort of foreplay or emotional connection. In her eyes she was giving me sex so I should be happy, in my eyes I was being ordered to perform yet another chore and clean up afterwards.


Well, that is something that I did not experience since once he decided to make the marriage sexless, there was not even this kind of sex.



Celtic said:


> I know as men we're supposed to appreciate the act of sex but I think more men crave intimacy than they would like to admit. For me its the whole package; the flirting, the teasing, the communication, the love and the sex is the icing on the cake, if one aspect is missing the rest tends to fall apart too and I'm willing to bet that I'm not the only man who thinks like this.


And some men are married to women who also love intimacy and provide a lot of it, who flirt, tease, communicate, love the sex and so forth. But the men we are married to don’t want any part of it.


----------



## FeministInPink

EleGirl said:


> We also need to keep in mind that sometimes, probably pretty often, the person who appears to be LD in a the marriage is not LD at all. They simply do not want sex with their spouse.
> 
> This book is linked to in the first post on this thread:
> 
> Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It
> 
> The authors of the book did survey of thousands of men who do not want sex with their wives. Only 3% of them said that they were not interested in sex. 1% said that they are gay. The rest just did not want sex with their wives. In many, if not most of the cases, a large part of the issue is anger at the wife. There are other studies that have been done asking women who appear LD in their marriage… in those studies 70+% of the women say that they are angry at their husbands and thus do not want sex with them. It has nothing to do with libido. Very often, a person who does not want sex with their spouse is having affairs or interested in having an affair.
> 
> I think that the idea that many of those who appear to be LD have intimacy issues with their spouse could be right on. Harboring anger at their spouse to justify their lack of desire for sex with their spouse works very well.
> 
> As soon as the marriage with a HD/”LD” match ends, what happens? The “LD” person gets into a new relationship and suddenly the “LD” tendencies disappear.
> 
> And yes there are some truly LD people, men and women, they are the minority. They are even the minority of those who chose to have little or no sex with their spouse.


I think this describes my XH to a tee. He harbored a lot of [unspoken, and unjustified] anger and resentment towards me... but once we split up, he was trying to get with every woman that crossed his path.


----------



## wringo123

Holdingontoit said:


> The easiest way to resolve the dilemma is to convince themselves that the pain is not actually that all that bad, and that the HD is either being a whiny crybaby or a manipulative jerk. That relieves the LD from responsibility to take actual they prefer not to take. Human ability to rationalize is impressive.


This is so very true. Marriage is not all about sex...does that sound familiar?

I have recently come to realize that my role in our marriage is to be my husband's "beard"...no he's not gay, but as long I am not complaining or making an issue, he can pretend to himself that he does not have any problems in the sex department. It is very demoralizing to know that he is willing to hurt me like that in order to protect himself...so he just convinces himself that he is not hurting me, despite what I have repeatedly tried to get him to understand, and he doesn't have to change or do any work to fix it. 

Does that make sense to anyone else.?


----------



## Faithful Wife

wringo123 said:


> This is so very true. Marriage is not all about sex...does that sound familiar?
> 
> I have recently come to realize that my role in our marriage is to be my husband's "beard"...no he's not gay, but as long I am not complaining or making an issue, *he can pretend to himself that he does not have any problems in the sex department. It is very demoralizing to know that he is willing to hurt me like that in order to protect himself...so he just convinces himself that he is not hurting me, despite what I have repeatedly tried to get him to understand, and he doesn't have to change or do any work to fix it*.
> 
> Does that make sense to anyone else.?


 @wringo123 I've known several women who were beards in the same way you describe. To a very tiny lesser extent, I was that in a long ago relationship. 

Interestingly, I was just reading an article that explains the cognitive dissonance you are talking about in the bolded.

Why Is It So Hard to Admit Mistakes? Personal Responsibility 101 | The Art of Manliness

This article was more about owning up to mistakes than owning up to not being who the world wants you to be. But I think it will still be a beneficial read for you. It doesn't solve anything. But maybe somehow you could break through to him by sharing it with him and having a direct discussion about how and why he refuses to see how this hurts you.


----------



## uhtred

Makes perfect sense to me. 

In fact I've sometimes wondered if my wife was lesbian - though there is no direct evidence. She also has the attitude that if I'm not complaining, things must be great, but if I do complain, I'm just exaggerating what is really a trivial issue "a spoiled child who didn't get a cookie". 




wringo123 said:


> This is so very true. Marriage is not all about sex...does that sound familiar?
> 
> I have recently come to realize that my role in our marriage is to be my husband's "beard"...no he's not gay, but as long I am not complaining or making an issue, he can pretend to himself that he does not have any problems in the sex department. It is very demoralizing to know that he is willing to hurt me like that in order to protect himself...so he just convinces himself that he is not hurting me, despite what I have repeatedly tried to get him to understand, and he doesn't have to change or do any work to fix it.
> 
> Does that make sense to anyone else.?


----------



## Cheeseplease

I have been battling the same problem for almost 4 years now. once 1st LO was born about 3 months old, we had sex 1 time while on holiday. after that never again for the year, last year same thing, now im getting frustrated since i love having sex and H just cant seem to get it up, i get that he suffers from mild ED but he does not seem to notice that we are 2 people in this relationship, and that its just not him, he uses hypertension everytime as an excuse and and fed up. i dnt know what to do


----------



## uhtred

Do you think the ED is the root problem, or is it just something that gives him an excuse not to do other things for you in bed?




Cheeseplease said:


> I have been battling the same problem for almost 4 years now. once 1st LO was born about 3 months old, we had sex 1 time while on holiday. after that never again for the year, last year same thing, now im getting frustrated since i love having sex and H just cant seem to get it up, i get that he suffers from mild ED but he does not seem to notice that we are 2 people in this relationship, and that its just not him, he uses hypertension everytime as an excuse and and fed up. i dnt know what to do


----------



## wringo123

Faithful Wife said:


> @wringo123 I've known several women who were beards in the same way you describe. To a very tiny lesser extent, I was that in a long ago relationship.
> 
> Interestingly, I was just reading an article that explains the cognitive dissonance you are talking about in the bolded.
> 
> Why Is It So Hard to Admit Mistakes? Personal Responsibility 101 | The Art of Manliness
> 
> This article was more about owning up to mistakes than owning up to not being who the world wants you to be. But I think it will still be a beneficial read for you. It doesn't solve anything. But maybe somehow you could break through to him by sharing it with him and having a direct discussion about how and why he refuses to see how this hurts you.


That was a great read. Thanks. It articulated exactly what I have had trouble wrapping my head around.

At this point though I am done arguing or trying to change anything. I am tired of the whole struggle and getting disappointed over and over again. 

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


----------



## hellrazr

I haven't read all of the posts in this very long thread so I don't know if this has been brought up already. My wife has major problems with her sexuality due to past abuse. I wonder if some of these men are in the same boat. The effects last a long, long time. Maybe forever. It certainly explains why a person could be very much in love with someone, be attracted to them and yet not be able to have the sex life they want to have with that person. 
I can relate to anyone in the position of being neglected. It can be really difficult for a partner who still has a very strong sex drive. Many will say the answer is to end the marriage. But that comes with repercussions. Not to mention that every other aspect of the relationship may be great. Are there kids involved? That adds a whole other dimension. 
I'm not sure there is a good answer. Some will end it. Some will have an affair. Some will be lucky enough to somehow work through it. Some will just hang in there. But it is so very difficult and frustrating to live like this. It isn't right and it isn't fair and it isn't what we want and need. But it is what it is.


----------



## Faithful Wife

hellrazr said:


> I haven't read all of the posts in this very long thread so I don't know if this has been brought up already. My wife has major problems with her sexuality due to past abuse. I wonder if some of these men are in the same boat. The effects last a long, long time. Maybe forever. It certainly explains why a person could be very much in love with someone, be attracted to them and yet not be able to have the sex life they want to have with that person.
> I can relate to anyone in the position of being neglected. It can be really difficult for a partner who still has a very strong sex drive. Many will say the answer is to end the marriage. But that comes with repercussions. Not to mention that every other aspect of the relationship may be great. Are there kids involved? That adds a whole other dimension.
> I'm not sure there is a good answer. Some will end it. Some will have an affair. Some will be lucky enough to somehow work through it. Some will just hang in there. But it is so very difficult and frustrating to live like this. It isn't right and it isn't fair and it isn't what we want and need. But it is what it is.


One of the women I knew in a sexless relationship was with a man who had a sexually abusive mother. She found this out after he lost all interest in sex. It was really sad when she learned about the abuse.

He was a gorgeous man and they had a lot of good things in the relationship but the sexlessness ended it.

He had good and plentiful sex with her in the beginning and then just stopped suddenly when they got more serious. Very sad.


----------



## CuddleBug

EleGirl said:


> I would like this thread to be a resource for women who are in sexless, or near sexless marriages in which it is their husbands who don’t want sex. I’m hoping that women dealing with this issue will post and talk about what they are going through.
> 
> About 20% of marriages are sexless. A sexless marriage is defined as one in which the couple has sex 10 or fewer times a year.
> 
> We hear a lot about women withholding sex and thus making a marriage sexless, or near sexless. There is a lot of empathy/sympathy out there for men stuck in such a marriage.
> 
> What we don’t hear of much is that about half of the sexless marriages were due to the husband choosing to make the marriage sexless. We are fed the falsehood that all men want sex all the time. Well that’s just not so. Some men do not want sex all the time.
> 
> Women who are in sexless marriages due to their husband’s choice to make the marriage sexless often feel that they have nowhere to turn, no one to talk to. They are rightly concerned that they will be blamed. It’s all their fault. When a woman thinks that all men want sex all the time, in her mind she becomes the only married woman who is so undesirable that her husband will not touch her.
> 
> Women are only now starting to be open about this. Marriage counselors are finally starting to talk about how common the problem is.
> 
> If you are a woman in a sexless marriage because it’s your husband’s choice to make it sexless, you are far from alone. Many of us women out here have had the same issue. We are, or were, married to a man like your husband.
> 
> TAM is a good place to come for moral support and some good advice. But there is no way that we here on TAM can give you all the input and help you need to resolve this issue. There are some books that I think would go a long way to help you understand what is going on in your marriage and figure out ways to fix it if at all possible. Here are some good books that have helped a lot of women.
> 
> Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It
> 
> Intimacy Anorexia: Healing the Hidden Addiction in Your Marriage
> 
> Sex-Starved Wives
> 
> 
> Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence
> 
> In some sexless marriages, the issue is denying sex to control their spouse. Here are some links if you think you might be experiencing this
> 
> Narcissists, Sex and Fidelity - The Somatic Narcissist, The Asexual Cerebral Narcissist, Extramarital Affairs, and Paraphilias
> 
> Sexual Attitudes of a Narcissist: Sex and the Narcissist - The Narcissistic Life
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/350970-sex-starved-wife-12.html#post16762066
> =========================================
> =========================================
> =========================================
> 
> Below is some info from the book "Why Men Stop Having Sex".
> 
> WHAT STOPS THE PASSION? Why do men stop having sex with their wives? The reason is seldom simple and may have a physiological, psychological, or cultural foundation; recent studies add a genetic component. Often these elements combine. We looked at the statistical reasons our male survey respondents, who self-identified as choosing not to have sex with their spouses, gave us for no longer being intimate, and we studied their comments carefully. Let’s first take a look at some statistics. We asked men to rate a list of reasons on a scale that went from strongly agree to strongly disagree. The following table lists in descending order the percentage of men who agreed with each of the causes.
> 
> 
> *%% WHY MEN SAID THEY STOPPED REASON*
> 
> 68%……She isn’t sexually adventurous enough for me. (This lack of newness, energy, and emotion translates for many men into a
> ...........lack of adventure and sexual enjoyment on the part of their partners, transferring the problem and ignoring the fact that
> ...........they’re not bringing any originality to bed, either.)
> 
> 61%……She doesn’t seem to enjoy sex.
> 48%……I am interested in sex with others, but not with my wife.
> 44%……I am angry at her.
> 41%……I’m bored.
> 40%……She is depressed.
> 38%……She has gained a significant amount of weight.
> 34%……I am depressed.
> 32%……I no longer find her physically attractive.
> 30%……I suffer from erectile dysfunction.
> 28%……I lost interest and I don’t know why.
> 25%……I prefer to masturbate, but not online.
> 25%……I prefer to watch pornography online and masturbate.
> 21%……I am on medication that lowered my libido.
> 20%……I am/was having an affair.
> 16%……I suffer from premature ejaculation.
> 15%……I have difficulty achieving orgasm.
> 14%……I am too tired.
> 09%……She is/was having an affair.
> 06%……I don’t have the time.
> 03%……I wasn’t interested in sex to begin with.
> <1%……I am gay.
> 
> Although the men know (or at least think they know) the reasons for their voluntary celibacy but the women are only guessing, either way the situation is embarrassing and painful. * It is therefore not surprising that both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves.* Indeed, men indicate a lack of sexual adventure (hers, not his) as primary. It is difficult to believe that this lack of erotic excitement is completely one-sided, and that these men who identify their wives as unadventurous are themselves imaginatively passionate guys, just somehow mysteriously unable to inspire the one woman they chose to marry. Both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves. After all, they probably knew her acceptable level of tolerance for erotic exploration before the vows were exchanged. We suspect that boredom or other factors is closer to the truth, or they are confusing the pornography they see on DVDs or the Internet with reality.
> 
> Berkowitz, Bob; Yager-Berkowitz, Susan. He's Just Not Up for It Anymore: Why Men Stop Having Sex, and What You Can Do About It (pp. 13-15). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.




Nice resource.:smthumbup:


I would be classified as a sexless marriage then, 10 times or less year.


*68%……She isn’t sexually adventurous enough for me. (This lack of newness, energy, and emotion translates for many men into a
...........lack of adventure and sexual enjoyment on the part of their partners, transferring the problem and ignoring the fact that
...........they’re not bringing any originality to bed, either.)

61%……She doesn’t seem to enjoy sex. 

38%……She has gained a significant amount of weight.*


I am the HD adventurous one and could have sex every day, always trying something fun and new.


But being married to a LD wife, over the many years I stopped initiating.


That's why I am not interesting in sex much anymore, my wife is LD and killed it.


I really feel for the ladies married to guys who are LD.



Reasons for lack of sex:

- insecure about their body and size
- bad ex
- really bad relationship
- raised conservative, sex is taboo
- not willing to break out of the vicious endless circle
- painful to have sex


----------



## SoSmartJuliet

Can I jump on here?

I'm new...as you can see...

I haven't read through the thread yet. I think it's going to take a few days, actually. But I will be reading thorough with interest.

I have been married for some time. My husband lost interest in me very early in our marriage. Before that due to living far apart we were only able to get together about once a month. We definitely had sex then. But once married he just wanted to yank it to porn night and day. I felt and feel like the ugliest woman in the world.

Thinking this most definitely must be all my fault, a suspicion embraced perhaps a bit too joyfully by my husband, who "nicely" has always capitalized on apparently how effed up I am and every single issue is all in my head, I tried all the harder. I got pregnant and then he definitely didn't want me. I remember lying back naked, desperate to get even a touch from him, and he literally glanced at my yupperoo and said "clam up," then walked away. It was a joke, because...that was my clam. Get it? Ha! Ha! Oh what a jokester. 

Over the years it has gotten down to perhaps once every couple of months he'll "try" but just can't finish with me. This isn't mechanical as he has been finishing to his own hand regularly, to hundreds of pictures of other women, every single one of whom is apparently more appealing physically than I am (this sure does a number on one's self-esteem) as he can pretty much close his eyes, throw a dart at the internet and hit SOMEBODY he'd rather spill it to than me.

I have asked, begged for a divorce. He has assured me he will finish me if I do. He will financially ruin me and take the kids away. He has financial resources I definitely don't, so I can see that happening. In between this he tells me how abusive I am for complaining, insists he's not abusive because he only says such things when he's angry (double-WTF), has alienated me from his family who is local by telling them I'm so mentally sick and he can barely bring himself to leave the children with me (but somehow has managed to force himself to do just that for 14 years, how interesting) and then does this gushy 180 where he's Mr. Attentive. I mean not sexually, of course. During those times I am, according to him, brilliant and talented, an amazing mother, and the most gorgeous woman on earth! Especially since I finally lost weight. (Um...) We get along going out and doing things I'd as easily do with my girlfriends or like, I don't know...any vague acquaintance which he takes to mean we're fine romantically. 

Sexually he can barely manage to keep it hard(ish) for a few minutes (but only rarely finish even then) if he turns me on my stomach so he can't see my face or anything like that and I guess can imagine "whomever," then insists that's because I TOLD him I like doggy (once). Turned on my back so he can look at me, he just softs right down. 

Then he literally cries because during those lame incredibly painful attempts to pretend he has any interest in me, I am no longer attracted. At all. By this point, more than a decade of this later I couldn't get wet for this man if it were monsoon season.

I feel like the absolute ugliest woman on the entire planet. And I have very little money, my parents are dead and I'm 3000 miles from my family. Many mornings I wish I could just die instead of get up to another endless day marching slllllllllllowly toward 8 years from now when my smallest is finally in college and I can GTFO with my zero resources to some slummy hideous room where at least I'll be left alone legitimately, not left alone with a warm body right there.

So anyway, yeah, nice to meet you all! Where's the chips and dip?


----------



## Holdingontoit

Good chance he has ED and his going soft has nothing to do with you. He is avoiding sex so he does not have to face and deal with his ED. He blames you to deflect that he is the one at fault / with a problem that needs resolving.

Sneaky test: go online and buy some kamarga from India ($1 per pill). Crush a pill and put it in something with strong flavor so he cannot taste the bitterness. Wait an hour. Come on to him. If he pops a raging boner, you know that ED is the issue and after you bang his brains out you can spill the beans on your experiment. If he eats 100 mg of kamarga and then an hour later stays soft when you come on to him, then you know the problem is psychological and not physical.


----------



## EleGirl

SoSmartJuliet said:


> Can I jump on here?
> 
> I'm new...as you can see...
> 
> I haven't read through the thread yet. I think it's going to take a few days, actually. But I will be reading thorough with interest.
> 
> I have been married for some time. My husband lost interest in me very early in our marriage. Before that due to living far apart we were only able to get together about once a month. We definitely had sex then. But once married he just wanted to yank it to porn night and day. I felt and feel like the ugliest woman in the world.
> 
> Thinking this most definitely must be all my fault, a suspicion embraced perhaps a bit too joyfully by my husband, who "nicely" has always capitalized on apparently how effed up I am and every single issue is all in my head, I tried all the harder. I got pregnant and then he definitely didn't want me. I remember lying back naked, desperate to get even a touch from him, and he literally glanced at my yupperoo and said "clam up," then walked away. It was a joke, because...that was my clam. Get it? Ha! Ha! Oh what a jokester.
> 
> Over the years it has gotten down to perhaps once every couple of months he'll "try" but just can't finish with me. This isn't mechanical as he has been finishing to his own hand regularly, to hundreds of pictures of other women, every single one of whom is apparently more appealing physically than I am (this sure does a number on one's self-esteem) as he can pretty much close his eyes, throw a dart at the internet and hit SOMEBODY he'd rather spill it to than me.
> 
> I have asked, begged for a divorce. He has assured me he will finish me if I do. He will financially ruin me and take the kids away. He has financial resources I definitely don't, so I can see that happening. In between this he tells me how abusive I am for complaining, insists he's not abusive because he only says such things when he's angry (double-WTF), has alienated me from his family who is local by telling them I'm so mentally sick and he can barely bring himself to leave the children with me (but somehow has managed to force himself to do just that for 14 years, how interesting) and then does this gushy 180 where he's Mr. Attentive. I mean not sexually, of course. During those times I am, according to him, brilliant and talented, an amazing mother, and the most gorgeous woman on earth! Especially since I finally lost weight. (Um...) We get along going out and doing things I'd as easily do with my girlfriends or like, I don't know...any vague acquaintance which he takes to mean we're fine romantically.
> 
> Sexually he can barely manage to keep it hard(ish) for a few minutes (but only rarely finish even then) if he turns me on my stomach so he can't see my face or anything like that and I guess can imagine "whomever," then insists that's because I TOLD him I like doggy (once). Turned on my back so he can look at me, he just softs right down.
> 
> Then he literally cries because during those lame incredibly painful attempts to pretend he has any interest in me, I am no longer attracted. At all. By this point, more than a decade of this later I couldn't get wet for this man if it were monsoon season.
> 
> I feel like the absolute ugliest woman on the entire planet. And I have very little money, my parents are dead and I'm 3000 miles from my family. Many mornings I wish I could just die instead of get up to another endless day marching slllllllllllowly toward 8 years from now when my smallest is finally in college and I can GTFO with my zero resources to some slummy hideous room where at least I'll be left alone legitimately, not left alone with a warm body right there.
> 
> So anyway, yeah, nice to meet you all! Where's the chips and dip?


Sorry you are here with this problem.

You might want to copy this post of yours and use it to start your own thread. Or if you want I could copy it to a thread for you... just let me know what you want to do.

It sounds like your husband has a porn addiction and deflects it by being mean to you.

I'm curious, based on our concerns, it sounds like you don't live I the USA. Is that correct?


----------



## SunCMars

I have never written a "lick" on this thread for two main reasons.

One....it is directed at women. @EleGirl wanted women to post here. Men have their own thread-less suits.

Two...I will pop a blood vessel in my head. I get enraged with respect to this topic.

God is cruel.........


----------



## SoSmartJuliet

Holdingontoit said:


> Good chance he has ED and his going soft has nothing to do with you. He is avoiding sex so he does not have to face and deal with his ED. He blames you to deflect that he is the one at fault / with a problem that needs resolving.
> 
> Sneaky test: go online and buy some kamarga from India ($1 per pill). Crush a pill and put it in something with strong flavor so he cannot taste the bitterness. Wait an hour. Come on to him. If he pops a raging boner, you know that ED is the issue and after you bang his brains out you can spill the beans on your experiment. If he eats 100 mg of kamarga and then an hour later stays soft when you come on to him, then you know the problem is psychological and not physical.


He he! > Thank you for the suggestion but I'm not going to drug him. I know he can get erections and have orgasms because he masturbates pretty much daily.


----------



## SoSmartJuliet

SoSmartJuliet said:


> He he! > Thank you for the suggestion but I'm not going to drug him. I know he can get erections and have orgasms because he masturbates pretty much daily.


ETA: Sorry, I meant to quote EleGirl's post rather than this one. ^

I'm in the U.S.

I had posted on this thread because the OP stated she was interested in us sharing our stories but if you want to make my post its own thread that's fine. It's up to you.

So who has thought about affairs? I daydream constantly about attractive men at this point. It's my own outlet. I've also been on AM off and on but always chicken out when approached. This isn't a totally sneaky thing, my spouse is aware. In fact I have begged for an open relationship. Weirdly, though he refuses to have a real marriage with me and commands his own satisfaction to strangers daily, he is flatly against me getting any satisfaction of the type I want.


----------



## EleGirl

SoSmartJuliet said:


> ETA: Sorry, I meant to quote EleGirl's post rather than this one. ^
> 
> I'm in the U.S.
> 
> I had posted on this thread because the OP stated she was interested in us sharing our stories but if you want to make my post its own thread that's fine. It's up to you.
> 
> So who has thought about affairs? I daydream constantly about attractive men at this point. It's my own outlet. I've also been on AM off and on but always chicken out when approached. This isn't a totally sneaky thing, my spouse is aware. In fact I have begged for an open relationship. Weirdly, though he refuses to have a real marriage with me and commands his own satisfaction to strangers daily, he is flatly against me getting any satisfaction of the type I want.


Yes, I'm the OP of this thread. And I'm glad that you did post on this thread. Thanks for sharing. I just thought that you might want more input/support via your own thread too.

Do I copied you post to a new thread. Here's the link to your thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/381961-husband-lost-interest.html

And your post is still above in this thread too.


----------



## SoSmartJuliet

EleGirl said:


> Yes, I'm the OP of this thread. And I'm glad that you did post on this thread. Thanks for sharing. I just thought that you might want more input/support via your own thread too.
> 
> Do I copied you post to a new thread. Here's the link to your thread:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/381961-husband-lost-interest.html
> 
> And your post is still above in this thread too.


Thank you, EleGirl.


----------



## Holdingontoit

SoSmartJuliet said:


> He he! > Thank you for the suggestion but I'm not going to drug him. I know he can get erections and have orgasms because he masturbates pretty much daily.


Bzz, sorry, not so fast.

I have ED. I cannot have PIV sex with my wife without Viagra. I masturbate pretty much daily and get erections and have orgasms. An erection sufficient to masturbate to orgasm is not necessarily an erection sufficient to have PIV sex with a living breathing woman. And definitely not necessarily sufficient for that PIV sex to be satisfying for her. I can assure you that all the women I fantasize about wind up satisfied. I can also assure you that my wife never or hardly ever does.

Which is why I stopped having sex with her and now confine my sex life to masturbation (to avoid the shame from not being able to get hard or not being able to get off). Which sounds like what your H is doing. So maybe, just maybe, I might have some insight into your situation.


----------



## NickTheChemist

hellrazr said:


> I haven't read all of the posts in this very long thread so I don't know if this has been brought up already. My wife has major problems with her sexuality due to past abuse. I wonder if some of these men are in the same boat. The effects last a long, long time. Maybe forever. It certainly explains why a person could be very much in love with someone, be attracted to them and yet not be able to have the sex life they want to have with that person.
> I can relate to anyone in the position of being neglected. It can be really difficult for a partner who still has a very strong sex drive. Many will say the answer is to end the marriage. But that comes with repercussions. Not to mention that every other aspect of the relationship may be great. Are there kids involved? That adds a whole other dimension.
> I'm not sure there is a good answer. Some will end it. Some will have an affair. Some will be lucky enough to somehow work through it. Some will just hang in there. But it is so very difficult and frustrating to live like this. It isn't right and it isn't fair and it isn't what we want and need. But it is what it is.


I feel for you, brother. I too am in a sexless (10-12 times a year) marriage and it eats away at me constantly. I adore my wife and our children. Most everything else in the marriage is great. I'm 31 and feel empty and broken because of it. It is so confusing for my wife to praise the way I treat her and thank me for all I do for her, but ultimately deny me sex, a touch, even a real kiss. I didn't want this, but I am living with it. I won't cheat or leave.

Please, anyone reading this, don't regularly deny your partner--it hurts deeper snd in more ways than you may know.


----------



## SoSmartJuliet

Holdingontoit said:


> SoSmartJuliet said:
> 
> 
> 
> He he!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the suggestion but I'm not going to drug him. I know he can get erections and have orgasms because he masturbates pretty much daily.
> 
> 
> 
> Bzz, sorry, not so fast.
> 
> I have ED. I cannot have PIV sex with my wife without Viagra. I masturbate pretty much daily and get erections and have orgasms. An erection sufficient to masturbate to orgasm is not necessarily an erection sufficient to have PIV sex with a living breathing woman. And definitely not necessarily sufficient for that PIV sex to be satisfying for her. I can assure you that all the women I fantasize about wind up satisfied. I can also assure you that my wife never or hardly ever does.
> 
> Which is why I stopped having sex with her and now confine my sex life to masturbation (to avoid the shame from not being able to get hard or not being able to get off). Which sounds like what your H is doing. So maybe, just maybe, I might have some insight into your situation.
Click to expand...

So you ignore your wife so you don't have to feel bad? And then you go get your own satisfaction?

How do you think she might feel about that?

I mean, you feel better. You get what you want. And you aren't twisting in the wind wondering what the hell is wrong, or feeling neglected, wondering if you're hideous or...what. You have made this all comfortable for yourself.

What about your wife? If she goes off and secretly sobs with the bathroom door locked and you just never know, how would you feel about that?


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## Faithful Wife

SoSmartJuliet said:


> So you ignore your wife so you don't have to feel bad? And then you go get your own satisfaction?
> 
> How do you think she might feel about that?
> 
> I mean, you feel better. You get what you want. And you aren't twisting in the wind wondering what the hell is wrong, or feeling neglected, wondering if you're hideous or...what. You have made this all comfortable for yourself.
> 
> What about your wife? If she goes off and secretly sobs with the bathroom door locked and you just never know, how would you feel about that?


Welcome to TAM @SoSmartJuliet I am sorry for the reasons that bring you here.
@Holdingontoit has a very long and painful story, in some ways similar to yours in that he is trapped but also on some level willingly trapped. It is a very complicated story, and the post of his that you quoted definitely doesn't give you any background. I think the point he is making is more about how your H may be too ashamed of not being able to get hard with you to even try, and thus turns to porn. But the reasons he withholds sex from his wife are not the same as whatever reason your H withholds sex from you (I highly doubt anyway due to the complicated dynamic in his marriage). Though he can come along and explain more if he wants.

Juliet, your story is simply heart breaking to me....but I also wanted to comment that your writing is freaking hilarious. Are you a writer? If not, you should be.  I know this is a painful and difficult topic for you, but the way you've related it in your first post was just such good writing that I found myself chuckling several times. 

Example: he can pretty much close his eyes, throw a dart at the internet and hit SOMEBODY he'd rather spill it to than me.

This is straight up hilarious, also incredibly painful, and just excellent writing considering the topic.

Having said that...your story is breaking my heart and I hope and pray you figure out a way to GTFO sooner rather than later. Your H has serious issues, is sadistic (possibly NPD) (@Uptown), and besides what he is doing to you....your children will eventually receive the same treatment from him, just in different ways. If a man is cruel to your mother, you cannot trust that man and he is a danger to you. Well....if it is your father, all of that still applies.

Please do whatever you can to get out now. Don't wait the 8 years. Not only you, but your children will suffer exponentially more the longer you are with him.

It sounds like you do not understand the family law system. If he has all the money and you have none, and if you have always been the main caregiver of the children, then in a divorce there is no way he can financially ruin you OR "take your children". Quite the opposite, you may get half of his wealth (because half of it is legally yours anyway) and because you've been the main caregiver (which is easy to prove) you will likely get full custody and he will only get visitation. Not only that, but he has to pay for your legal fees (you will have to come up with the money first, but in the settlement it will be noted that he will have to pay them, ie: reimburse you).

Please get yourself and your kids away from him NOW.


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## SoSmartJuliet

Thank you, FaithfulWife. Actually, yes, I am a writer. Sorry for not answering sooner. I am feeling rather down.


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## Holdingontoit

@SoSmartJuliet: I agree with @Faithful Wife. Your situation is heartbreaking and I do not wish it on anyone. I did not mean to make light of your pain. I was earnest in trying to help you see things from a different perspective. You seemed convinced that you knew how he views his own sexuality. You might be correct. But I am not so sure.

What is clear is that you are suffering. And that is a terrible shame. There are plenty of men in relationships with women who don't want any sex (at least not with them). A woman who does want to have sex with her current partner is a terrible thing to waste. Anyone in a relationship with someone who doesn't want sex has my sympathy.

Worry not for my wife. She does not want sex with me, so she suffers not from my pulling away. She finds it a relief and a blessing not to be pressured to have unwanted sex (she is a rape victim and pressure for unwanted sex triggers her PTSD). And for her, pretty much all sex with me is unwanted. Our marriage is better than it has ever been since I stopped having sex with her. So you need not be concerned on H2's behalf.

That said, I feel for you. I know all too well the pain of rejection. The self-doubt. The fear and anxiety. The frustration and resentment.
Hoping and praying that you find an escape from those feelings. That may or may not require you to escape from the marriage. Wishing you peace in whatever way you need it.


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## EleGirl

Posting to bump this thread to the top.


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## wringo123

Holdingontoit said:


> Bzz, sorry, not so fast.
> 
> I have ED. I cannot have PIV sex with my wife without Viagra. I masturbate pretty much daily and get erections and have orgasms. An erection sufficient to masturbate to orgasm is not necessarily an erection sufficient to have PIV sex with a living breathing woman. And definitely not necessarily sufficient for that PIV sex to be satisfying for her. I can assure you that all the women I fantasize about wind up satisfied. I can also assure you that my wife never or hardly ever does.
> 
> Which is why I stopped having sex with her and now confine my sex life to masturbation (to avoid the shame from not being able to get hard or not being able to get off). Which sounds like what your H is doing. So maybe, just maybe, I might have some insight into your situation.


How does your wife feel about you giving up sex with her in favor of masturbation?



Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

wringo123 said:


> How does your wife feel about you giving up sex with her in favor of masturbation?


She loves it. Our marriage has never been better. She gives me more compliments. She provides more affection (holding hands). She speaks to me in a pleasant tone instead of a shrill tone.

My wife is a rape victim. She hated being pressured to have sex more often than she wanted to. Now there is no pressure on her to provide sex and she feels more relaxed. she feels more able to speak to me in a loving manner and hold my hand and let me brush her cheek with my fingertips because she knows that none of those things are going to lead to sex.

I am also more relaxed. If we have a "date" on Friday or Saturday night I no longer have my "radar" on trying to determine if maybe tonight is the night we might have sex. Scrutinizing her mood and tone and demeanor to detect what kind of mood she is in. Unconsciously sending signals that I wish tonight could be "the night". Now there is much less stress for either of us. And I end date night feeling glad that we had a pleasant time together. Instead of feeling disappointed that all that time and money did not lead to sex.

It is a much better dynamic between us.

There is no way I could have done this earlier in my life. I was too horny. Now I am older and my libido is way down and I can tolerate going without sex much more easily.

And I don't think she would have enjoyed it as much if we had dropped the sex sooner. She had a serious health problem a couple of years ago and I was very supportive and attentive. I think that solidified in her mind that I love her. So our not having sex doesn't cause her to think that I stopped loving her.

Not having sex at all is much easier for me than having sex once every couple of months.

I understand this system wouldn't work for most couples. Then again, I am guessing most married women have orgasms occasionally (although perhaps not with their husbands). As far as I can tell, my wife never does. As far as I know she never masturbates. That is what she told all our MCs and STs and I believe her. We never use toys and she doesn't own any. She long since stopped me from using my tongue or fingers because "it doesn't do anything for me so it is just a waste of time". I don't think she ever got anything out of sex (at least not with me), so she isn't missing out on anything now that we don't have sex.

Not suggesting this is a great solution. I think in most cases divorce is a better solution for both spouses. But it works for us. And I am thinking there are a bunch of HDs who might find that eliminating sex entirely is easier than rarely having sex. And it changes the relationship dynamic in a way that is helpful to the HD. It changes the power dynamic. Now the LD has far less power in the relationship. They can't use the granting and withholding of sex as a manipulative tool. Puts the HD in a far stronger negotiating position. If the HD isn't willing to divorce over the lack of sex, I suggest trying a sex holiday and seeing how the LD reacts.


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## tim42358

I am new here and am married 37 years. I have had ups and downs. I have found that we have to rethink our sexual relationship on a regular basis. I had a enlightening one day years ago that I needed to see if she was way more needy sexually than I could perceive from my limited perspective. She had a passive personality and was never going to ask for sex. Or even send any hints. I took this as her not wanting sex. I stepped up my game and pushed myself on her. WOW did I learn something about her. Now she very rarely resists my advances. She wanted a man who is aggressive. I to am a passive personality. Our sex life rocks now.


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## wringo123

I am glad you have been able to find a way for both of you to cope. Probably, 80% of the time I can deal ok with the situation, but I go through phases of extreme sadness, anger and resentment over it. I am going through one right now. I don't know what triggers them. We get along fine, really well actually. We are very compatible in every other way and really enjoy one another's company. I can be fine with that weeks and even months at a time and then for some reason....its just not enough anymore and thinking about living the rest of my life this way is just so depressing.


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## BlueandBlond

I am so glad this is a topic. Here is my story in a nut shell. My husband and I have been together for 21 years. He is 52 and I am 47. 

We had a very good sex life and equal on both sides. There are no control, anger issues of any kind. We have always been respectful of each other and everything was great. After our second child, our sex went down a bit but nothing to complain about. But, after our third child it changed dramatically. My youngest is now 13 years old. We have had sex 4 times in 13 years. This Sept has been 5 years with no sex. Not for the lack of me trying. When my youngest was born, he said he didn't want any more kids and had a vasectomy. 
I think that did something. I think that made him think that he was less of a man. I didn't have a hysterectomy because I had my children all naturally and it was just easier for him to have it done because of that. I also know that our communication has decreased greatly. If he doesn't want to talk about something, he doesn't. He will change the subject and avoid. It was for many years that he would blame me for bugging him because he was stressed from work, or I was nagging him. I used to cry every day. So I stopped. It didn't make any difference. 

So then it came to the time that I just gave up. I have actually threatened him that I would leave because I am not happy. I used to blame myself and I know it isn't me. I am sexually starved. I take care of myself in every way and have always been independent. Very easy going. I get hit on and complimented all of the time. I just don't get it and I don't know what to do. I think about divorce every day. We are roommates and he hates it when I say that. I think he loves me and wouldn't know what to do without me and I know I would be fine without him and hope that I would be happier. Then I think...would I? Do I really want to go through a divorce and start over? We have tried counselling but to be honest the guy was chauvinistic. 

Men were superior....women were not and everything is their fault. Wrong counselor. It took me everything to go him to go and to keep trying I just don't have the energy. I would like him to take the lead if he cares that much. I just told him last week I think I have hit my breaking point and I am not sure if I can go on this way. I am in limbo. So when you talk about a sexless marriage, I am right up there.


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## EleGirl

@BlueandBlond

Thanks for posting the above on this thread. You are sadly in good company here. Did you see the resources listed in the first post? Some of those might be helpful to you.

Why not start your own thread and share what you have shared here. Then the good folks here on TAM can give you some support directly geared towards you.


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## BlueandBlond

I did see the resources EleGirl and will be reviewing it more thoroughly. It looks like there are a couple of books that would be well worth reading. If we could get the communication going, perhaps there's hope. I just don't know if the chemistry could be there anymore and rekindled. Thanks! Great that this was brought up and in such detail.


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## MrsHolland

BlueandBlond said:


> I did see the resources EleGirl and will be reviewing it more thoroughly. It looks like there are a couple of books that would be well worth reading. If we could get the communication going, perhaps there's hope. I just don't know if the chemistry could be there anymore and rekindled. Thanks! Great that this was brought up and in such detail.


At least you know you are not on your own in this B&B. I did hit my breaking point though and ended the marriage at just on 20 years. Am now married to an amazingly compatible man and living a much more fulfilling Life. 

Sadly your story is far from uncommon.


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## cc48kel

Same here.. We haven't had sex in YEARS!!! The chemistry/communication are so bad that I don't think it's even worth trying. I have tried BUT it does take two people.


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## vauxhall101

I don't know if I should be posting her, but my wife is sex starved, and it's because of me. I can explain why. 

My wife is sexually inexperienced (and I'm not exactly Casanova), and we had to spend a lot of time apart when we were first together. She would tell me that she wanted me to dominate her sexually. I have never really been into that (my fantasies are more the other way), and I said to her "Don't say that if you don't mean it. You don't know what you're saying." She insisted that she did, and she was very enthusiastic about pleasing me, while we were apart. 

Before she was due to catch a flight, we had sex, and I was dominant with her (nothing violent, it was actually kinda vanilla, and she did not use safe word or object or anything). She says I hugged her afterwards and asked if she was alright, I don't remember that, but I do remember that she seemed distant and sad and didn't seem to want me to hug her on the way to the airport, but I thought was because we were saying goodbye for a while and she didn't want a fuss. 

Anyway, later, she tells me that I traumatised her because I did not give her enough 'aftercare'. She said that what I did give her was "too little too late". Ok. I felt bad about it. We have discussed this numerous times, and I have apologised. 

After that, her attitude towards sex changed. She would no longer do anything for me. She tells me that relationships are about 'communicating wants and needs', so I sat her down one day and calmly explained to her that I have certain bedroom needs (that rhyme with joe blobs), and that this is very important to me. She screamed at me for an afternoon, that I am being selfish and ruining our marriage because of my own selfish desires, that joe blobs are "disgusting" and other things.

I have tried to be calm about this. I have explained that I think it is unrealistic of her to expect me to go the rest of my life without getting the one thing that pleases me above all else, and not only that, but I physically can't have a proper sexual relationship with someone who basically tells me that pleasuring me is selfish and disgusting. 

She has made an effort in our sex life, but in the wrong direction. She is very attractive, that's certainly not a problem. I'm ashamed to say I feel like she uses the earlier incident as an excuse to not do what she doesn't want, because she is all in favour of sex, so long as it's about her pleasure. If it's me going down on her, or sex toys, or whatever. 

I feel like sex to her is not about mutual pleasure, it is about reassuring her insecurities. Ya know, as soon as I have lusted after her to her satisfaction, I can go away again. My pleasure isn't even a consideration, except insofar as, I'd better feel pleasure otherwise she will feel 'insecure', and have a go at me. Sex is supposed to be fun and exciting, but it doesn't feel that way to me, it feels like a test. If I 'pass' she is happy and I'm unsatisfied. If I 'fail' she is angry and I'm unsatisfied. 

Frankly, I'd rather just not bother. If I jerk off over a picture of a celebrity or whatever, the celebrity isn't going to wait a few days and then say to me "I think we need to talk about you jerking off the other day. I don't feel you treated me the way I want to be treated. We should sit down and talk about my feelings, until you feel appropriately ashamed of yourself."


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## EleGirl

vauxhall101 said:


> I don't know if I should be posting her, but my wife is sex starved, and it's because of me. I can explain why.
> 
> ..........


It sounds like you and your wife are sexually incompatible. You know that from the get go but married anyway. If both of you were willing to get the help you need to fix it, it could be fixed. I don't think that either of you are. This is certainly one of the several scenarios that lead to sexless marriages. But it's not the only one.


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## vauxhall101

EleGirl said:


> It sounds like you and your wife are sexually incompatible. You know that from the get go but married anyway. If both of you were willing to get the help you need to fix it, it could be fixed. I don't think that either of you are. This is certainly one of the several scenarios that lead to sexless marriages. But it's not the only one.


We are sexually incompatible, but I didn't know that from the get go. The reason I wouldn't have sex with her is because she started acting as if my sexual pleasure was not only irrelevant, but that it wasn't even a consideration. I tried, I was generous to her sexually (something she acknowledged), but her attitude was that the purpose of "our" sex-life was to make her feel good about herself, and that was all, and I should be grateful that she let me have that. It got to the point where her initiating sex gave me the fear, because I knew at best it would be another boring hour of contortion for me feeling sexually frustrated, and at worst it would be a prolonged tantrum about how I don't make her feel special enough. Hardly a fun, sexy thrill. 

I don't want to offend anybody, obviously this is partly me venting, but I thought somebody might be interested in the perspective of the guy 'starving the wife' of sex - because she was still always trying to initiate, and despite me telling her repeatedly (in fact feeling like I was banging my head against a brick wall) that she didn't make me feel "special" either by being almost violently opposed to me experiencing sexual pleasure, she still only made a desultory effort a couple of times after that.


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## EleGirl

vauxhall101 said:


> We are sexually incompatible, but I didn't know that from the get go. The reason I wouldn't have sex with her is because she started acting as if my sexual pleasure was not only irrelevant, but that it wasn't even a consideration. I tried, I was generous to her sexually (something she acknowledged), but her attitude was that the purpose of "our" sex-life was to make her feel good about herself, and that was all, and I should be grateful that she let me have that. It got to the point where her initiating sex gave me the fear, because I knew at best it would be another boring hour of contortion for me feeling sexually frustrated, and at worst it would be a prolonged tantrum about how I don't make her feel special enough. Hardly a fun, sexy thrill.
> 
> I don't want to offend anybody, obviously this is partly me venting, but I thought somebody might be interested in the perspective of the guy 'starving the wife' of sex - because she was still always trying to initiate, and despite me telling her repeatedly (in fact feeling like I was banging my head against a brick wall) that she didn't make me feel "special" either by being almost violently opposed to me experiencing sexual pleasure, she still only made a desultory effort a couple of times after that.


I agree that your perspective is relevant on this thread. It would be interesting to hear your wife's side of this too. Unfortunately we don’t often get the other side of the story on this forum.

The book _"Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships and What You Can Do About It"_, discusses these sorts of issues. There is a link to the book and a list of the reasons that men give for choosing to make the marriage sexless in the first post of this thread. Your reasons fit that list.

Have you ever told your wife very clearly what your issues are? Have the two of you been to counseling, maybe even sex therapy, to try to fix this? Or do you just go on year after year like this?


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## Handy

Things I relate to about a SSW

From a book survey
]a)Keep in mind that when asked, about 50% of men who withhold sex from their wife are getting it on the side with another woman. 
b)Add to that the large percentage who turn to porn for masturbation.[/b]

To answer a) I am on another forum where VERY few men are getting anything on the side, maybe 1 out of 10 and they have been in a sex/emotionally starved marriage for a long time. I think about ~80% want to have an affair but they feel too guilty to do it just like women slightly more feel too guilty.

A couple of the guys tried to have affairs but most women even if they are single, don't want a married man and the women do not want to be viewed as a "home wrecker." Now if the woman is also in a similar sex starved and emotionally starved relationship, people decide to kill 2 birds with one stone. In one case this happed because the sex starved woman's H has some severe medical condition and the guy is in a care facility.

To answer b) Yes erotica and what people call porn is an easy fall back to rely on including Rosy Palm. No rejection, no putdowns, and the timing is usually OK.

What guys say when viewing porn, is they want to see a woman in the sexual relationship being happy she is getting sex. If she is hanging on to her guy, that is a big extra. The women that over act or act dead don't do much for most guys.

Ane what Jon said women and I suppose men that with hold sex for some form of control or he/she can't control me. My example=One person wants something expensive so the sex flows freely. No expensive trinkets, the sex dries up. 

Holdingontoit 
I feel like Charlie Brown if Lucy ever let him kick the football. Might be fun. But the next time I run toward the ball, I am still on the lookout that she might pull it away at the last second. So I can never relax and really take a full swing at the ball. Because that would mean making myself vulnerable to her. And I have no intention of ever allowing that to happen. No matter how much joy it costs me. 

BTDT. I can imagine some women feel this way too.

Sixty eightfrustration with her situation:
have sex
crave more sex
get disappointed, sad, frustrated that there won't be anymore sex for a while
sometimes feeling it is not worth it. 

Anti Initiating = A preemptive strike, taking your power back. Where i'm falling asleep on the couch watching TV, or staying up super late on the computer, or going in to cuddle goodnight with the kids, and then just not getting up. Anything to avoid going to my own bed at a reasonable hour and getting a "no", or a "We just had sex!"

uhtred
When you are rejected a lot, it becomes much easier to never ask. If you are in a situation like mine where your spouse often hints at sex, but then changes their mind, its also easy to get into the pattern of trying to avoid sex. My wife will often hint at sex later in the day or the next day, so I'll make sure I have nothing planned for that time - and then feel like an idiot when she changes her mind. 

notmyrealname4
Don't think of your body as betraying you. Sex is a combination of a lot of things: your age and overall state of health, hormone levels, mental and emotional well-being. To have a sex drive is to be alive. And to want that sexual comfort and connection makes you loving and healthy.

Some of my ideas why men reframe from being sexual:

ED of course. Only a few men I have read about will be honest with his SO and accept outside help. Some men think they aren't desirable unless the erection works 99% of the time. The fear of failure to complete the task undermines his confidence and performance.

Some men have a difficult time breaking out of previous moral and religious training. It isn't much different than when some women think sex is dirty. I was told what not to do and if I went too far too fast, she would think there was something wrong with me and then sex would dry up because of her resentment.

OK, I know, hypothetically she is hot for me but those old FOO messages are laying loudly and warning me I might screw up and that will end the sex. Yes therapy helps but what helps more is a physically willing partner that will go slow. It is difficult to overcome the hundreds of "women don't like sex" stories I have heard over a lifetime.

BTW this isn't about me. I am just explaining why some men "MIGHT" be sex aversive.

Then there are men that think because sex is good for them, they wonder what they are doing wrong because his partner isn't getting as excited as he is. Often after a long time like this he loses his confidence and begins to think he is a "pest" and thinks he is bothering his partner and he wants to be better than a pest so he backs off initiating.

What some men think it is to be a man. (or this is what we are told, and if we don't measure up, it decreases our confidence and some/most women will not like as much as we wanted to be liked. (Am I good enough, will she think i am good enough)

Why Is It So Hard to Admit Mistakes? Personal Responsibility 101 | The Art of Manliness

Anyway ladies I wish i could help your man to give and do what made you happier. I fix a lot of things in real life but people including myself, well not so much. I do understand, so maybe that is a start.

Wishing all of the ladies the best, what ever that is.


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## EleGirl

@Handy

Could you do me a favor? Would you please write a post to men whose wives have chosen to make their marriage sexless or near sexless? Could you explain the reasons why women do this?


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## Deperatedwoman

I am a new member!! I hope this thread helps me


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## EleGirl

Deperatedwoman said:


> I am a new member!! I hope this thread helps me


I hope it does too!!! Some feedback from you would be Great.


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## uhtred

@vauxhall101
It is an unfortunate mistake when someone asks to be "dominated" without explaining clearly what that means. It can mean vigorous sex, or being called bad names, or spanking, or being "forced" to do things they don't normally do, etc etc. Sadly many people think its "obvious" what they mean, when in fact the term is interpreted completely differently by different people. 

Your wife felt abused because you didn't do what she wanted - even though she NEVER TOLD YOU WHAT SHE WANTED. If she didn't like what was going on, she should have used her safe word to end things.

She may feel this gives her an excuse to be sexually selfish, but IMHO it does not. You tried to do what she asked, it is i no way your fault that she didn't enjoy it.


It could be darker than just confusion. She may be intentionally using sex to control you. Playing on your guilt to make you do what she wants in a cold evil calculating way.


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## Handy

*Handy
Could you do me a favor? Would you please write a post to men whose wives have chosen to make their marriage sexless or near sexless? Could you explain the reasons why women do this? *

I could give the reasons my w decided sex wasn't her thing? I can speculate why other women decide sex is not important. However, I will ask if that is what you really want.

I made my post above to agree with some of the other posters that resonated with me. I truly empathize with any HD woman or man. I wish I had some wisdom to make things better for the higher drive woman.

I know the training (exposure to strict moral and religious) impacted me to be less adventurous sexually. If women think guys that were growing up in a repressed society like me might be LD externally or gay, the truth might be the man might be high drive but so "locked down" he has trouble breaking out of his FOO shell towards being higher drive.

I am not excusing LD men but giving some information why SOME men are LD. The golden ring is discovering how to unlock that higher drive but that is something the man has to do mostly on his own IF he is with a HD woman.

Again my sympathies for any woman in the HD vs no-LD situation. I see it is really difficult for the women. I read almost every post on the "Sex Starved Wife" M. W. Davis has/had several years ago. I have and read all of her books including the "Love Something" CD set.


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## EleGirl

Handy said:


> *Handy
> Could you do me a favor? Would you please write a post to men whose wives have chosen to make their marriage sexless or near sexless? Could you explain the reasons why women do this? *
> 
> I could give the reasons my w decided sex wasn't her thing? I can speculate why other women decide sex is not important. However, I will ask if that is what you really want..


Yes, I was hoping you have to do that and if you have to speculate, then yea. 



Handy said:


> I made my post above to agree with some of the other posters that resonated with me. I truly empathize with any HD woman or man. I wish I had some wisdom to make things better for the higher drive woman.
> 
> I know the training (exposure to strict moral and religious) impacted me to be less adventurous sexually. If women think guys that were growing up in a repressed society like me might be LD externally or gay, the truth might be the man might be high drive but so "locked down" he has trouble breaking out of his FOO shell towards being higher drive.
> 
> I am not excusing LD men but giving some information why SOME men are LD. The golden ring is discovering how to unlock that higher drive but that is something the man has to do mostly on his own IF he is with a HD woman.
> 
> Again my sympathies for any woman in the HD vs no-LD situation. I see it is really difficult for the women. I read almost every post on the "Sex Starved Wife" M. W. Davis has/had several years ago. I have and read all of her books including the "Love Something" CD set.


I'm no sure why, but a lot of people confuse LD with people who chose to make their marriage sexless.

The studies about the reasons that a person (male or female) chose to make their marriage sexless show that over 70% do so out of anger and/or frustration with their spouse. In not cases it has nothing to do with their sex drive. Shoot a good portion of them are cheating on their spouse. You know the old adage... if he's not getting it at home, he's getting it somewhere else. That might be port usage, or it might be another woman. (For women it might be with another man.)


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

vauxhall101 said:


> We are sexually incompatible, but I didn't know that from the get go. The reason I wouldn't have sex with her is because she started acting as if my sexual pleasure was not only irrelevant, but that it wasn't even a consideration. I tried, I was generous to her sexually (something she acknowledged), but her attitude was that the purpose of "our" sex-life was to make her feel good about herself, and that was all, and I should be grateful that she let me have that. It got to the point where her initiating sex gave me the fear, because I knew at best it would be another boring hour of contortion for me feeling sexually frustrated, and at worst it would be a prolonged tantrum about how I don't make her feel special enough. Hardly a fun, sexy thrill.
> 
> I don't want to offend anybody, obviously this is partly me venting, but I thought somebody might be interested in the perspective of the guy 'starving the wife' of sex - because she was still always trying to initiate, and despite me telling her repeatedly (in fact feeling like I was banging my head against a brick wall) that she didn't make me feel "special" either by being almost violently opposed to me experiencing sexual pleasure, she still only made a desultory effort a couple of times after that.



During the times you would have sex, you weren't being pleased at all? They were all standalone events for her? 

A lot of your post sounds like how I viewed my ex. He didn't think it was "fair" that it would take me 30-60 minutes of activity to finish and felt I should be giving him standalone bjs and quickies for him. The long sessions were "for me" .... I hated that. He finished too and I wanted him to get to the point where pleasing me was for HIM too. It was such a fuss and he would just use porn and avoid the stress of having to put in the work to please me. I stopped allowing bjs and quickies because he made it seem like everything else was only for me and he got nothing out of it. 

My Dominant partner now puts my pleasure first, it's just as fun and important for him as his own. More so even as I finish much more often as he does and he'll take as much time as he wants every single time. As a result I need much less time (like 5 minutes vs 30 to finish) and I want to do more for him. I want to give him standalone bjs because my needs aren't a chore. They are *for* him. He'll ask to do it and want to do it. 

I'm likely not explaining right but there was a huge difference in the mindset between the two. One being the 60 minutes of time to get me off was for me, his part was the 5 minutes it took him to get off, and one being he gets to spend 60 minutes making me squirm and have fun with me as a mutual event. 

I also don't know anyone personally who wanted to be dominated without still being pleased. If you "took what you wanted" and that didn't involve her pleasure, that is very telling to a woman. Be dominant while still attending to her needs. 

My bf jokes that he will make me *** as many times as he says so until my legs no longer work. Then when Im a twitching puddle of mess he'll get to do anything else he wants to me. That's sexy. 

If any of his first few times with me involved him getting off but not me, he wouldn't be my boyfriend or Dom. 
This is actually the stick which I judged potential partners with once single. How much effort and importance they put into my orgasm.


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## Handy

EleGirl, I never had a close male friend that had or has an affair partner. I was in the Army in 1967 and heard guys bragging about how much sex they got and how they went about it,90% of the guys were single. Of the married guys that fooled around, they were away from home ( too far to go home for several months) or deployed very far from home. The married guys that lived with a W generally were faithful.

I worked in a repair shop with 10 other guys. One guy was an alcoholic and a player and was married several times. He never talked about affairs. I have read relationship forums for 10+ years. Yes people have affairs but is it really 50% for men? It could be. Maybe I live in a very sheltered life.

Right now on one sexless forum I say 10% to 20% of the sex starved men have affairs, which is significantly fewer than the reported 50% you listed. Another bunch of men would have an affair if it was easier and didn't require extra money.

There is a masturbation section on that forum and all but a few women admit they get SOME relief from self pleasure, so YES, that happens A LOT with men. No one that is HD is happy or satisfied with self pleasure. What they want is being emotionally connected to their spouse AND be sexual with wished their partner also enjoying the activity, just like here. Just for fun, there is also a "lamest excuse" section on the same forum.

I "get the HD side, be it a man and especially a woman. Even though I am reading all of the instances of HD women here on TAM and a few other places, I do not hear about or see any in real life so from my vantage point IRL HD women are somewhat of a rare commodity (as in, something off value, useful such as patience, etc) so what I say has my filter attached.

I never intended to suggest men or women had it worse with regard to a sex starved relationships. 

I fix things. when someone brings me something that doesn't work correctly, I find what is deficient and explain why the item didn't work as desired. Me saying some men have deep seated FOO issues isn't trying to excuse the men but to give information why something didn't work correctly. Lucky for me, often I can fix physical things. Not so with people and the many personalities developed over a long time.

Maybe if I was an "empath" on Star Trek I could only wish I had a few answers to correct some issues. 

So right now ((((cyber hugs)))) to any woman hurting because of rejection and (((man hugs))) to the guys in similar situations.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Handy- my group of friends, age range 30s-late 40s are mostly a bunch of horny, HD women. 

For the most part their husbands keep up enough to keep them somewhat satisfied so they wouldn't be on a forum complaining (just to their girlfriends) 
Some are getting to that frustrating stage where the gap between their raising drive and their husband's lowering drive is getting bigger and bigger. 

I understand hormones play a big part but also once we get to that age where the kids are bigger and not hanging off us and there is less cleaning up people's butts and boogers and spend more alone time with our partners, our drives go up. At that time the male is going down, he's middle aged and doesn't always have the stamina he used to. He wanted it in his 20s when she was too damn tired of the kids and housework to want it. 

I also think we as women are less likely to talk about it. It's embarrassing. Men are supposed to be on us constantly wanting sex. We aren't supposed to be getting turned down. The advice you get is he "must be gay" or cheating or we must be unattractive. 

It's really only lately that it's been more open to talk about it. Wife not putting out is a more common topic to share IMO


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## vauxhall101

EleGirl said:


> I agree that your perspective is relevant on this thread. It would be interesting to hear your wife's side of this too. Unfortunately we don’t often get the other side of the story on this forum.
> 
> The book _"Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships and What You Can Do About It"_, discusses these sorts of issues. There is a link to the book and a list of the reasons that men give for choosing to make the marriage sexless in the first post of this thread. Your reasons fit that list.
> 
> Have you ever told your wife very clearly what your issues are? Have the two of you been to counseling, maybe even sex therapy, to try to fix this? Or do you just go on year after year like this?


I agree it's very unfair just to hear one side, but I don't want her to know I'm posting on this forum, lol, but we have discussed it and I might be able to give a (probably unfair) approximation of what she would say the problem is/was. She would argue that the reason she doesn't make me feel 'special' in the bedroom is because I don't make her feel special out of it - I don't tell her she's the most beautiful woman in the world (or, by her lights, she has to 'force it out of me' - I often tell her she's beautiful, but this is not enough), so why should she give me a bj? That's roughly her attitude to this issue. 

I must admit and confess that I believe this to be a rationalisation. I think the fact is, that she just doesn't want to. She will occasionally tell me other things, such as (similar to posts on this forum probably): she read in a forum about some lady saying that her husband insists on bjs, then he gets on top of her, and he has his orgasm, but he point-blank refuses to do anything for her. She tells me things like this, I feel, as a rationalisation to herself - men are selfish pigs, therefore, why should she do things that she doesn't want? It doesn't seem to ever occur to her that in our sex life, she's that selfish guy, and I'm that frustrated wife. 

Like you say, we are just sexually incompatible. I once read in a self-help book that the definition of being good in bed is wanting to pleasure your partner. I thought that showing enthusiasm about pleasing my wife (and my enthusiasm was genuine), would make her do likewise. This has not been the case. 

I might read that book, thank you very much for the recommendation.


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## Handy

SlowlyGoingCrazy, I am happy you are getting your needs met. I am guessing some men do not now what your Dom knows and does for you. That is a shame. In conservative circles being the Dom is often considered verboten.

I have watched some Dom videos and thought at first the woman was being abused or humiliated. Some videos looked like being out of reality. But hearing your and a few other women's posts on another forum, I see the benefits of the situation you are in with the Dom guy. OTH, I have heard some women say the Dom/s thing is abuse.

Like I said before, I lacked the experience and insight. I always heard women wanted other things other than sex. Well a couple times a monht and only missionary were OK way back when. (when= a long time ago) 

I also heard a few wierd-o's wanted sex and in many positions and at a high frequency, but they were not to be trusted. Now i hear wanting those things are normal and nothing to be ashamed of. That is more functional than the old model pushed by some people in society. 

I personally played the part of a gentleman too often I suppose, to my long term detriment. It has taken the Internet to "hear about" the HD women. Maybe they are out there being silent as you suggested. I will take your word on the HD women exist.

Maybe if people came with a different color tag like bread is delivered to the store anyone could tell how sexual a person might be. The next trick would to determine how long. BTW bread tag color "code" indicates when bread was delivered to the store.
Monday – Blue
Tuesday – Green
Thursday – Red
Friday – White
Saturday – Yellow

OK I admit I want things a bit too easy or at least would like to have a hint of what to expect long term. I know this comparability thing takes a lot of work and frequent mid course corrections .

to reply to your "unattractive comment" If there are so many women not getting the luvin' they want, when I go to Walmart, I wonder if woman a or b etc is in one of those sex starved marriages. My thoughts are even is she isn't a 1, 2, 3, 4 or above, she still has needs and wants someone to help her feel special. There is still the inside package that has needs no matter what the outside of the package looks like. My one disclaimer is i don't do heavy psychological issues, drugs and gambling or cheating issues. That is above my pay/ability grade.

SlowlyGoingCrazy, thank you for your posts.


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## EleGirl

Handy said:


> SlowlyGoingCrazy, I am happy you are getting your needs met. I am guessing some men do not now what your Dom knows and does for you. That is a shame. In conservative circles being the Dom is often considered verboten.
> 
> I have watched some Dom videos and thought at first the woman was being abused or humiliated. Some videos looked like being out of reality. But hearing your and a few other women's posts on another forum, I see the benefits of the situation you are in with the Dom guy. OTH, I have heard some women say the Dom/s thing is abuse.


I agree with just about everything in SlowlyGoingCrazy's post except the Dom stuff. There is no way I would ever go for that. But the part of her post where she is talking about being with a man who puts a lot of effort into her pleasure and he gets a lot out of her pleasure, that's the part that I agree with. And I will add, when guy is like that, I really get into giving him a lot of pleasure, too. It goes both ways.

The Dom play is not needed to at all for most women. What is needed is a guy who is really into mutual love making instead of him just getting off.


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## EleGirl

Handy said:


> I personally played the part of a gentleman too often I suppose, to my long term detriment. It has taken the Internet to "hear about" the HD women. Maybe they are out there being silent as you suggested. I will take your word on the HD women exist.


Define HD. That's a hard one.

There are a lot of HD women out there. Most of the women I know well enough to talk about their sex life are MD to HD... meaning 2/3 times a week to daily. It's not as rare as some seem to think. The issue is that women are shamed into holding back sexually and are shamed into not talking about it. I do think that the internet has made it easier for women to start talking more openly... such as on this forum. 

Also, when a woman is unhappy that her husband has chosen to make the marriage sexless, or near sexless, it does not mean that she is necessarily HD. It means that she would like sex with her husband. She might want it daily and actually be HD. Or she might want it once or twice a week. 

The myth that women are mostly LD comes from the period in the 1800's and early 1900's when women were taught that they were LD. Women were taught that they were not supposed to enjoy sex. That they were just supposed to give their husbands duty sex, because after all the doctors, scientists, psychiatrist, etc. were all teaching that women did not enjoy sex.

Women who had organisms were considered to suffer from a mental illness called "hysteria". A man could have his wife locked away in a mental institution for having "hysteria" (organisms). 

This belief has persisted for a long time. Back in the 1980's there were still men who believed this. One of my sisters was sadly married to one of these men. He was very clear that feminism ruined women because it taught woman that they were supposed to enjoy sex and have orgasms. Shoot, back then even Rush Limbaugh had shows that discussed how feminism had ruined women by making us women think we were supposed to enjoy sex. BIL used to quote these shows to support his stance.

Her husband refused to do anything to make sex enjoyable. He insisted that he have sex every night using her body. And she was supposed to just be spread eagle, not make any noise or move. Basically, my BIL was emotionally abusive and used sex as one of his ways to abuse her. And he used societal norms as his justification. Just writing this makes me sick. Thank God she dumped his sorry behind and found a man who she says she has good sex with daily... and she is now almost 70 and still enjoying a good sex life. 

When I first came to TAM I tried to talk about my sexless marriage. Back then, few women would bring that topic up here. The men here on TAM laughed at me, told me that I deserved it because so many men had LD wives that finally a woman knows what it feels like. I was told it had to be my fault if my husband did not want sex. I was asked what was wrong with me. This is why you did not hear a lot about HD women and about women who were in sexless marriages... because we kept our mouths shut. 

That's part of the reasons that I started this thread. I am well aware of what a woman is up against when she tries to talk openly about this topic. It's only in the last 2 years of so that women have finally been opening up about this topic on TAM. 

There are lots of women out there with healthy sex drives. They are not walking around telling everyone about it. Why would they? No one assumes that most men are LD. So why do so many people wrongly assume that most women are LD?


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## Handy

Elgirl
Yes, it sounds like women were portrayed wrongly.

I appreciate your efforts to give a voice to women and have them open up to what they want.

* she is now almost 70 (talking about your HD sister) *

Well, that is another thing I have to get used to. In real life, I have heard so many say menopause kills the sex drive, On the Internet I hear some yes it does kill things and sometimes I read her desires shot way up. Again this is all hidden to me in real life.

Strict FOO and "sensitivity training" at work (never say anything that COULD be taken as sexual) helped put me in what another woman on another forum called "men in lock down mode."


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## Red Sonja

EleGirl said:


> The myth that women are mostly LD comes from the period in the 1800's and early 1900's when women were taught that they were LD. Women were taught that they were not supposed to enjoy sex. That they were just supposed to give their husbands duty sex, because after all the doctors, scientists, psychiatrist, etc. were all teaching that women did not enjoy sex.
> 
> Women who had organisms were considered to suffer from a mental illness called "hysteria". A man could have his wife locked away in a mental institution for having "hysteria" (organisms).
> 
> This belief has persisted for a long time.


Ah, the Victorian Age ... people were just nutters when it came to sex theory back then.



EleGirl said:


> When I first came to TAM I tried to talk about my sexless marriage. Back then, few women would bring that topic up here. The men here on TAM laughed at me, told me that I deserved it because so many men had LD wives that finally a woman knows what it feels like. I was told it had to be my fault if my husband did not want sex. I was asked what was wrong with me. This is why you did not hear a lot about HD women and about women who were in sexless marriages... because we kept our mouths shut.


Yup, I cannot count the number of "are you fat?" responses from men on these and other forums when discussing this subject.


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## MrsHolland

Oh yes I got the "are you fat" "it must all be your fault because men are not LD" types of responses here too. There was also some great support but for some reason men in general find it hard to believe that other men can be LD. The worst offended of all was Carribean Man, such a bully but then I recently found out he also bullied other men. 

FWIW I am not fat, am very attractive and post awkward late teen years never had any issue attracting men.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

EleGirl said:


> The Dom play is not needed to at all for most women. What is needed is a guy who is really into mutual love making instead of him just getting off.



Yes the Dom part is not for everyone. Just pointing out that just because a woman says she wants to be "dominated" doesn't mean she wants a wham bam quickie. 




And yes, if my ex spent an hour doing foreplay first, then pleasuring me, then piv until he finished and was like "I spend an hour for YOU the other day, why can't I have a 5 minute bj?"

That's not cool. It tells me foreplay and making sure I actually enjoyed sex was for me and not for the both of us. 

No matter the enthusiasm at the time, it sends a very clear message. 

Also, just take a look around this forum and you still see this idea that women who have a past and have experimented sexually are "loose" and not marriage material... kind of dampens our ability to really explore our sexual side when we are constantly coming across negative opinions when we do.


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## uhtred

I think its a matter of *how* its asked. If he does spend a lot of time doign things to please you, then if what he enjoys is a quick BJ, that doesn't seem like an unreasonable request / expectation. Presenting it as a trade though is bad.

From the other side of this, for almost all of our lovemaking sessions, I do absolutely everything my wife wants, but she almost always finds a reason not to do what I want. Its not that I don't enjoy pleasing her, I very much do, but it leads to a very unbalanced feeling sex life. 







SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> snip
> And yes, if my ex spent an hour doing foreplay first, then pleasuring me, then piv until he finished and was like "I spend an hour for YOU the other day, why can't I have a 5 minute bj?"
> 
> That's not cool. It tells me foreplay and making sure I actually enjoyed sex was for me and not for the both of us.
> 
> snip


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

uhtred said:


> I think its a matter of *how* its asked. If he does spend a lot of time doign things to please you, then if what he enjoys is a quick BJ, that doesn't seem like an unreasonable request / expectation. Presenting it as a trade though is bad.
> 
> From the other side of this, for almost all of our lovemaking sessions, I do absolutely everything my wife wants, but she almost always finds a reason not to do what I want. Its not that I don't enjoy pleasing her, I very much do, but it leads to a very unbalanced feeling sex life.


The standalone bj is a tricky request. Typically there are no standalone times for her where you are not also being pleased. 
A bj as part of foreplay is an easier ask. I'd start there. If you give oral as foreplay then she should have no issues with also giving oral as foreplay.


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## samyeagar

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> The standalone bj is a tricky request. Typically there are no standalone times for her where you are not also being pleased.
> A bj as part of foreplay is an easier ask. I'd start there. If you give oral as foreplay then she should have no issues with also giving oral as foreplay.


This is getting away from the subject of the thread, but is a very good topic...the idea of a balanced sex life is a tricky one because balance can be measured in a lot of different ways. The important thing is how the balance feels. If it feels balanced, it is, if it doesn't, it isn't. Some people keep score from the get go, but I think more often than not, score keeping is a conscious response to the initial subconscious feeling of imbalance. It is a way of questioning ones self to see if the perceived imbalance is in fact an imbalance.


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## uhtred

Depends on the relationship. I often do sexual things for my wife including oral without getting anything in return.

This gets to the tricky problem where person A actively enjoys pleasing person B, but that feeling is not reciprocated. So A ends up doing sexual things for B, but not getting anything in return. A may think this is better than no sexual activity at all, but it still feels unbalanced.

Not sure if this is off topic or not - it is yet another form of someone not receiving the sex that they want / need in a relationship. 





SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> The standalone bj is a tricky request. Typically there are no standalone times for her where you are not also being pleased.
> A bj as part of foreplay is an easier ask. I'd start there. If you give oral as foreplay then she should have no issues with also giving oral as foreplay.


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## EleGirl

Handy said:


> Elgirl
> Yes, it sounds like women were portrayed wrongly.
> 
> I appreciate your efforts to give a voice to women and have them open up to what they want.
> 
> * she is now almost 70 (talking about your HD sister) *
> 
> Well, that is another thing I have to get used to. In real life, I have heard so many say menopause kills the sex drive, On the Internet I hear some yes it does kill things and sometimes I read her desires shot way up. Again this is all hidden to me in real life.
> 
> Strict FOO and "sensitivity training" at work (never say anything that COULD be taken as sexual) helped put me in what another woman on another forum called "men in lock down mode."


I think that menopause does kill the sex drive for SOME women. It does not kill it for all women. I don't know the numbers. I'm, 68. My sex drive has been the same all my adult life.


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## EleGirl

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Yes the Dom part is not for everyone. Just pointing out that just because a woman says she wants to be "dominated" doesn't mean she wants a wham bam quickie.


It's probably true that a lot of people misunderstand what dom really is.




SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> And yes, if my ex spent an hour doing foreplay first, then pleasuring me, then piv until he finished and was like "I spend an hour for YOU the other day, why can't I have a 5 minute bj?"
> 
> That's not cool. It tells me foreplay and making sure I actually enjoyed sex was for me and not for the both of us.
> 
> No matter the enthusiasm at the time, it sends a very clear message.


I do not understand the idea that foreplay is just for her. There is so much that can be done to drive a guy wild as well and have sex even better for him during foreplay that I don’t get it. Either she, or they, don’t understand this and thus are not playing enough, or he is just using the idea that foreplay is for her only as a way to guilt trip her into standalone bj’s. If a guy said that to me, I’d just end the relationship. Blahhhhhh I see it as passive aggressive manipulation.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Also, just take a look around this forum and you still see this idea that women who have a past and have experimented sexually are "loose" and not marriage material... kind of dampens our ability to really explore our sexual side when we are constantly coming across negative opinions when we do.


Exactly. TAM is full of threads like that.

The results is that some women actually buy into the nonsense and so they suppress themselves to the point that they cannot let go of the suppression with their husband. And then the husband complains about a LD wife. But one of the reasons he married her was because she was sexually suppressed and a "good girl".


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## EleGirl

uhtred said:


> I think its a matter of *how* its asked. If he does spend a lot of time doign things to please you, then if what he enjoys is a quick BJ, that doesn't seem like an unreasonable request / expectation. Presenting it as a trade though is bad.


I guess you assume that she's not also doing things to please him during foreplay. Foreplay is for the man too. I do not understand the idea that it's only for the woman. So if both are doing things do drive each other wild during foreplay, why is it just for her?



uhtred said:


> From the other side of this, for almost all of our lovemaking sessions, I do absolutely everything my wife wants, but she almost always finds a reason not to do what I want. Its not that I don't enjoy pleasing her, I very much do, but it leads to a very unbalanced feeling sex life.


So your wife does nothing for you during foreplay? It should be both of you doing things for/to each other.


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## EleGirl

samyeagar said:


> This is getting away from the subject of the thread, but is a very good topic...the idea of a balanced sex life is a tricky one because balance can be measured in a lot of different ways. The important thing is how the balance feels. If it feels balanced, it is, if it doesn't, it isn't. Some people keep score from the get go, but I think more often than not, score keeping is a conscious response to the initial subconscious feeling of imbalance. It is a way of questioning ones self to see if the perceived imbalance is in fact an imbalance.


Yes it is getting away form the subject of the thread. But I'll go with this for a bit.

Clearly some men feel that their sex life in not balanced. And I can assure you that some women do as well.

I can also assure you that no matter how much a women does during sex for the man, BJ's almost every time, sex at least once a day, and all kinds of experimenting... it will not keep her husband from cheating if he wants to cheat. And it will not keep him from deciding to make the marriage sexless. Why? Because for some men, their choice to cheat and/or go sexless is more about him than her.

What I noticed about my husband leading up to him going sexless in the marriage that he got more and more to the point that he did not want to be touched, sex had to me according to him... 'don't touch me there', 'stop making noises', 'stop being enthusiastic', 'don't' do this, or that , etc.' Just lay there and shut up while I get off'. After a few very strange months the sex stopped. It was him, not me. If he had a problem with me he could have talked to me about it but never did.

Being a willing, very sexually active partner did not prevent him stopping our sex life. All the bj's in the world did not stop him from going sexless in our marriage. It was something in his head and to this day I have no clue what it was exactly that years later I found out that he was cheating with every woman at the hospital who would cheat with him.

ETA: Oh, and I later found out that he justified his cheating by telling everyone that I was LD, hated sex and refused to have sex with him. See, when the guys are all around lamenting about their sexless marriage, they very well might by lying when the blame their wife. They just might by liars like my ex.
.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

EleGirl said:


> I guess you assume that she's not also doing things to please him during foreplay. Foreplay is for the man too. I do not understand the idea that it's only for the woman. So if both are doing things do drive each other wild during foreplay, why is it just for her?
> 
> 
> 
> So your wife does nothing for you during foreplay? It should be both of you doing things for/to each other.


My ex once told me that the fact that I couldn't O from PIV alone and needed other kinds of stimulation wasn't fair to *him*..... :slap:
He could just PIV for a few minutes and O but I needed all kinds of fancy tricks and foreplay. He never considered foreplay for him and don't get me started on him thinking me laying there while he rubs my vagina was foreplay... arrg... 

I told him he was more than welcome to find a man who could O in 5 minutes if he wanted but that I was a woman and needed a little finesse. 

Funny, my bf has made me O many times with just PIV now and it's so simple for him to get me there in many different ways because he is so giving. 
(though many women still can't O with PIV and that is still normal)


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## Handy

* slowlygoingcrazy
though many women still can't O with PIV and that is still normal)*

I was hoping that type of message would aleart men to taking more time and trying more things to get some of the "slower to get there" an incentive to be more patient and not think about the woman is LD or he isn't doing something right. I was hoping that type of message would promote empathy for the man's partner.

I can want to be the described man in the song "handyman" but I only want to do it with one SO. IRL, maybe I do not even do much "handy work" described in the song.


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## EleGirl

I think that a some significant portion of men believe that what they see in porn is what women are really like. In porn the women scream and have orgasms from PIV at a drop of a hat. Basically do not get your sex education from porn because the women on porn are paid to act that way. They really are not enjoying much at all. It's just another day on the job.

If you all want to talk about how to get women to orgasm, start a new thread. On this thread, we are talking about women who have no sex life because their husband does not want sex.

The relevance between the two topics is that my bet is that some men do expect women to act like porn stars. And when their wife does not because she's a normal woman, the men give up on sex and decide that they would prefer to use porn. Or maybe they start cheating because they are looking for the woman who acts like a porn star but is a 'good girl'.


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## As'laDain

EleGirl said:


> I think that a some significant portion of men believe that what they see in porn is what women are really like. In porn the women scream and have orgasms from PIV at a drop of a hat. Basically do not get your sex education from porn because the women on porn are paid to act that way. They really are not enjoying much at all. It's just another day on the job.
> 
> If you all want to talk about how to get women to orgasm, start a new thread. On this thread, we are talking about women who have no sex life because their husband does not want sex.
> 
> The relevance between the two topics is that my bet is that some men do expect women to act like porn stars. And when their wife does not because she's a normal woman, the men give up on sex and decide that they would prefer to use porn. Or maybe they start cheating because they are looking for the woman who acts like a porn star but is a 'good girl'.


Speaking as a man, i would guess that men would be more willing to give up sex with their partners because they think that they themselves are not able to perform. Basically, it would come from a sense of insecurity. 

If they get their education from porn, than they would probably think something must be wrong with them if their wives are not acting like the pornstars act. 

Sometimes, my wife does want the pornstars sex, and does respond to it in the same way. Really depends on her mood though. 

The one thing I have learned though, is that people in general tend to avoid anything that makes them feel inadequate. This applies to both males and females. Men probably avoid sex due to insecurity just as much as women. ESPECIALLY if they think they have to "measure up" to porn.


----------



## uhtred

I completely agree that foreplay "should be both of you doing things for / to each other". In some relationships it isn't. 

In our case the early touching / kissing is, but erotic massages, and oral are generally one-sided. 

If it was mutual, then of course there is nothing owed. I just think that long term on average each should be doing a similar amount of things that are just for their partner. 





EleGirl said:


> I guess you assume that she's not also doing things to please him during foreplay. Foreplay is for the man too. I do not understand the idea that it's only for the woman. So if both are doing things do drive each other wild during foreplay, why is it just for her?
> 
> 
> 
> So your wife does nothing for you during foreplay? It should be both of you doing things for/to each other.


----------



## EleGirl

As'laDain said:


> Speaking as a man, i would guess that men would be more willing to give up sex with their partners because they think that they themselves are not able to perform. Basically, it would come from a sense of insecurity.
> 
> If they get their education from porn, than they would probably think something must be wrong with them if their wives are not acting like the pornstars act.
> 
> Sometimes, my wife does want the pornstars sex, and does respond to it in the same way. Really depends on her mood though.
> 
> The one thing I have learned though, is that people in general tend to avoid anything that makes them feel inadequate. This applies to both males and females. Men probably avoid sex due to insecurity just as much as women. *ESPECIALLY if they think they have to "measure up" to porn*.


Since most women do not watch porn, most women do not expect men to act like the men in porn. So, if a man feels inadequate because he feels he does not "measure up" to porn, the problem is in his head. It's not a problem with his wife.

If men expect women to who enthusiasm for sex like a porn star, the men are setting their wife up for failure. Sure some women might act enthusiastic most, if not all of the time. But I'll bet it's seldom the level of enthusiasm shown by a porn start who is acting for the camera. It is beyond cruel for a man to expect his wife to behave in a certain manner and reject her if she does not act like the latest porn he's been watching. 

I'm amazed at the men on this thread justifying this.


----------



## uhtred

I agree that porn is a huge source of mis-information. I think it is more unrealistic in representing what most women enjoy, but its not great at showing what most men want either. Basically its bad for anyone who uses it as an example of reality - sort of like someone applying for a job at the CIA because they like James Bond movies. (Your average intelligence agent doesn't spent a lot of time driving Lamborghini's). 

There are other sorts of misinformation out there as well, from parents telling their daughters that "good girls" don't like sex, to romance movies presenting an impossible image of a "romantic" man.

I don't know to what extent unrealistic ideas about sex are responsible for people who avoid sex. 






EleGirl said:


> I think that a some significant portion of men believe that what they see in porn is what women are really like. In porn the women scream and have orgasms from PIV at a drop of a hat. Basically do not get your sex education from porn because the women on porn are paid to act that way. They really are not enjoying much at all. It's just another day on the job.
> 
> If you all want to talk about how to get women to orgasm, start a new thread. On this thread, we are talking about women who have no sex life because their husband does not want sex.
> 
> The relevance between the two topics is that my bet is that some men do expect women to act like porn stars. And when their wife does not because she's a normal woman, the men give up on sex and decide that they would prefer to use porn. Or maybe they start cheating because they are looking for the woman who acts like a porn star but is a 'good girl'.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I've noticed some men not wanting to do certain things that they enjoyed with previous partners or enjoy watching in porn because they don't want to "disrespect" their wives in that way. 
Likely more a madonna/wh*re issue and being unable to see their wives as a sexual person. 

Plus not all men have that needing sex to feel loved thing. It's just a way to get off. Porn works just as good and is easier. They have a willing woman who instantly loves piv with no foreplay, no romance needed. She has no emotional needs and isn't complaining that she had to put 3 kids to bed, clean up dog puke and be covered in boogers all day.


----------



## Rooster2015

I guess I am different. I love slowly teasing my wife in bed. Turns me on. Teasing her to a point she cannot wait for PIV. Almost begging for it. She usually gets off within the first minute. She calls it her never ending orgasm. We have sex a minimum of twice a week sometimes three times. But I also tell her everyday how hot she is. We hold hands. She is my best friend.


----------



## EleGirl

uhtred said:


> I agree that porn is a huge source of mis-information. I think it is more unrealistic in representing what most women enjoy, but its not great at showing what most men want either. Basically its bad for anyone who uses it as an example of reality - sort of like someone applying for a job at the CIA because they like James Bond movies. (Your average intelligence agent doesn't spent a lot of time driving Lamborghini's).
> 
> There are other sorts of misinformation out there as well, from parents telling their daughters that "good girls" don't like sex, to romance movies presenting an impossible image of a "romantic" man.
> 
> I don't know to what extent unrealistic ideas about sex are responsible for people who avoid sex.


Love your James Bond analogy, it's right on.

About 99.9999% of all men use porn. Most men use it extensively when they are single. The young men and boys today use it heavily from about the age 10 on. It's a pretty big part of their sex life.

About 25% of all women have ever read a romance novel. Yes romance movies are popular but not at the level of popular as porn with men.

Porn specifically addresses sex. It sets expectations for men of what they should expect from women in sex.

Romance movies are about relationships and dating. They seldom address what men expect from women during sex.

Since this is a thread about women in marriages in which their husbands refuse to have sex with them, romance novels and movies have little to do with the topic of this thread.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

That's my relationship now rooster but it took a lot of duds to get there. 

Since women aren't encouraged to test drive the car and explore her sexuality, she usually doesn't know what to look for in a partner before it's too late. 

She also will likely put up with bad sex, even faking it, for a while before it catches up to her that she's not enjoying herself. 

If she starts to demand more care (often in and out of bed), or hurts his delicate ego, he can just stop having sex completely. 

Btw there is a lot of advice to women about being super careful not to offend our male partners by saying anything negative about his performance so he doesn't get so hurt he can't mentally do it. 

But it's totally ok to tell a man to tell his wife he needs better sex.


----------



## Personal

uhtred said:


> I agree that porn is a huge source of mis-information. I think it is more unrealistic in representing what most women enjoy, but its not great at showing what most men want either. Basically its bad for anyone who uses it as an example of reality - sort of like someone applying for a job at the CIA because they like James Bond movies. (Your average intelligence agent doesn't spent a lot of time driving Lamborghini's).
> 
> There are other sorts of misinformation out there as well, from parents telling their daughters that "good girls" don't like sex, to romance movies presenting an impossible image of a "romantic" man.
> 
> I don't know to what extent unrealistic ideas about sex are responsible for people who avoid sex.


Porn is entertainment, if people don't get that then they have problems that are outside of pornography.

Incidentally one of my former intelligence colleagues did drive a Lamborghini when we worked together. That said he only drove it as a consequence of owning one.


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## As'laDain

EleGirl said:


> Since most women do not watch porn, most women do not expect men to act like the men in porn. So, if a man feels inadequate because he feels he does not "measure up" to porn, the problem is in his head. It's not a problem with his wife.
> 
> If men expect women to who enthusiasm for sex like a porn star, the men are setting their wife up for failure. Sure some women might act enthusiastic most, if not all of the time. But I'll bet it's seldom the level of enthusiasm shown by a porn start who is acting for the camera. It is beyond cruel for a man to expect his wife to behave in a certain manner and reject her if she does not act like the latest porn he's been watching.
> 
> I'm amazed at the men on this thread justifying this.


Who is justifying it? 

I am offering what I think is a real reason that some men might avoid sex due to their lack of real understanding. 

What you just posted seems to argue the point to call men cruel. 

I'll back out of your thread now and let you decide what men think.


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## Marissa 2017

Hi all, 

I have been married 39 years. Sex in the beginning was good, he was excited to have a HD partner. But then in his 40's his ED crept in, and all the excuses started, also his porn use increased, there is a correlation between porn usage and men unable to achieve the same level of excitement with the spouse. I will have to say this to all the young ladies out there experiencing this get out now! I have read and researched this topic enough to realize there is very little hope for a man with low desire for what ever reason to make any changes. Also I got the familiar comments from the men, all you have to do is spice up the sex a bit, lose weight or whatever. The men with normal sex drives do not get it!


----------



## Rosemary's Granddaughter

I haven't read all of the posts, but am thinking out loud...I wonder how many stages the Sex Starved Wife goes through...Disbelief, Mourning, Resentment--I don't think there's ever Acceptance...


----------



## MrsHolland

Rosemary's Granddaughter said:


> I haven't read all of the posts, but am thinking out loud...I wonder how many stages the Sex Starved Wife goes through...Disbelief, Mourning, Resentment--I don't think there's ever Acceptance...


I found acceptance but only after I divorced him. Whilst in he middle of it all there was no room for acceptance bc I was being so negatively impacted by the whole situation. There is no room for acceptance bc the disbelief and resentment take up so much space.

Post divorce I have found acceptance. He is who he is, a good person, a great father and now an excellent co parent. I have accepted that we were not sexually compatible, it is a shame no one taught us this as teenagers but I hold no grudge or negativity over it all.

In fact, my first marriage taught me a huge amount about life, love and compatibility. My second marriage is the perfect place for me.


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## notmyrealname4

.


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## EllisRedding

notmyrealname4 said:


> I have acceptance. Maybe because our low sex marriage is due largely to my husband's health issues and the meds he is taking.
> 
> No, he doesn't try to get healthy; but he's never had any willpower to do that sort of thing. Exercising is boring and he doesn't like "healthy" food. It's just his personality.
> 
> So, as you get older, if you are unhealthy; your sex drive will fade away.
> 
> There's a big difference in my sex drive, from even 3-4 years ago. And yes, it's probably atrophying from lack of use.
> 
> *I'm looking forward to having my sex drive go away. Then I'll move from acceptance to peace. * I am 51 and still get regular periods. Maybe after menopause, it will be gone.
> 
> Until then, sex every 4-6 weeks, depending. And the sex is problematic too.
> 
> But, the rest of our marriage is pretty good overall. So, I'm not going to divorce.
> 
> I would call that acceptance, of a sort.


For better or worse, I think this is a case of "You use it or you lose it". It would be nice if you weren't going to use it you would lose it quicker lol. I would say, similar to you, I am in the acceptance phase. Maybe not ideal by any stretch, but much better than the frustration phase.


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## LaReine

I have been married 3 years and our sex life is... well I'm lucky if it's once a month. More often it's once every 3 months.

We conceived our daughter after a 5 month "dry spell" with a further 2 months without after. So the only time we had sex in the space of 7 months I fell pregnant.

Since then it's "weird because your my daughter's mum"... but I know that's an excuse as our sex life was **** before that.

He sees a counsellor as he has bipolar but even when he works on whatever it is, it lasts a month or so.

I've given up and told him I will look elsewhere if necessary. He said he wasn't ok with that (which I understand) so I told him to consider it as otherwise we were heading for a divorce.

I'm 28. My sex life should not be over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

Sorry to read about your situation. Very painful. But all to common. We sympathize with your frustrations.

In the end, if he sees you as a Mom and not as his wife or as a sexy young woman, that is his issue to address. He has to want to change his views. And he has to be willing to do the work to get there. If he isn't, you face some very tough choices.

Good luck.


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## uhtred

No, your sex life should not be over and you are in for a long unhappy relationship if it is. 

The problem is that he needs to fix this, and it sounds like he is not willing to do so. The "daughter's mom" thing is just another excuse since sex was so rare before that. Its unfortunate you got pregnant and I wonder if that was intentional on his part to keep you from leaving. 

In any case, from where you are now, I think you are stuck with the 3 miserable choices:

Leave. Cheat. Live like a Nun.

I don't recommend any of them, but I don't know that you have any other options. 












LaReine said:


> I have been married 3 years and our sex life is... well I'm lucky if it's once a month. More often it's once every 3 months.
> 
> We conceived our daughter after a 5 month "dry spell" with a further 2 months without after. So the only time we had sex in the space of 7 months I fell pregnant.
> 
> Since then it's "weird because your my daughter's mum"... but I know that's an excuse as our sex life was **** before that.
> 
> He sees a counsellor as he has bipolar but even when he works on whatever it is, it lasts a month or so.
> 
> I've given up and told him I will look elsewhere if necessary. He said he wasn't ok with that (which I understand) so I told him to consider it as otherwise we were heading for a divorce.
> 
> I'm 28. My sex life should not be over.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeministInPink

uhtred said:


> No, your sex life should not be over and you are in for a long unhappy relationship if it is.
> 
> The problem is that he needs to fix this, and it sounds like he is not willing to do so. The "daughter's mom" thing is just another excuse since sex was so rare before that. Its unfortunate you got pregnant and I wonder if that was intentional on his part to keep you from leaving.
> 
> In any case, from where you are now, I think you are stuck with the 3 miserable choices:
> 
> Leave. Cheat. Live like a Nun.
> 
> I don't recommend any of them, but I don't know that you have any other options.


I agree with @uhtred. He's making excuses. For this to get better, he has to WANT to make a change, and I don't see that in what you describe.

And I think you need to ask yourself, how much does he really love you, if he doesn't care enough to find or work towards a solution for something that is making you so unhappy?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

LaReine said:


> I have been married 3 years and our sex life is... well I'm lucky if it's once a month. More often it's once every 3 months.
> 
> We conceived our daughter after a 5 month "dry spell" with a further 2 months without after. So the only time we had sex in the space of 7 months I fell pregnant.
> 
> Since then it's "weird because your my daughter's mum"... but I know that's an excuse as our sex life was **** before that.
> 
> He sees a counsellor as he has bipolar but even when he works on whatever it is, it lasts a month or so.
> 
> I've given up and told him I will look elsewhere if necessary. He said he wasn't ok with that (which I understand) so I told him to consider it as otherwise we were heading for a divorce.
> 
> I'm 28. My sex life should not be over.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Madonna/Wh*re complex maybe? Even before you were Mom, you were the woman he was planning a family with. You are the Madonna. A lot of men have trouble picturing their "Madonnas" as sexual beings

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/madonna-*****-complex/all/1/


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## uhtred

If they had an active sex life before she got pregnant, then I'd believe it was the M/H complex - which is a real thing. But their sex life was very limited before so I see this as another excuse and the sex to get her pregnant as an attempt to trap her in the marriage. (if it was done to trap her then it is a despicable act - basically using a child as a hostage). 



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Madonna/Wh*re complex maybe? Even before you were Mom, you were the woman he was planning a family with. You are the Madonna. A lot of men have trouble picturing their "Madonnas" as sexual beings
> 
> http://www.doctornerdlove.com/madonna-*****-complex/all/1/


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

uhtred said:


> If they had an active sex life before she got pregnant, then I'd believe it was the M/H complex - which is a real thing. But their sex life was very limited before so I see this as another excuse and the sex to get her pregnant as an attempt to trap her in the marriage. (if it was done to trap her then it is a despicable act - basically using a child as a hostage).


Some men put the Madonna status on before kids. They are the woman that will bear their children, the pure wife. Some men have M/W even in dating. They can date and love and plan a future with someone they view as a madonna but typically they have ONS and throw away relationships with women they view as the wh*res.


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## kmetoyer

I'm going on to about 3 weeks now without any intimacy from my husband. He always says he is to tired or hes to busy with work (hes in the military). I usually have to wait for him to start drinking to know that I might be able to get him in bed with me. That sounds horrible, trust me i know. I know that he watches porn, and accepts pictures from other women that are of an intimate nature. I've tried to send him these types of pictures in the past, and he told me flat out he did not want them. Its hurtful to know that your own husband doesn't lust after you or want you as badly as you want them. I've never cheated on him and patiently wait for him to come home to see if this trip home will be different. (Note: He is only gone from Sunday to Thursday, and he is home from Thursday night to Sunday evening)


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## Buddy400

FeministInPink said:


> For this to get better, he has to WANT to make a change, and I don't see that in what you describe.
> 
> And I think you need to ask yourself, how much does he really love you, if he doesn't care enough to find or work towards a solution for something that is making you so unhappy?


This is the best relatiionship advice there is.

1) The person (male or female) has to acknowledge the problem

2) The person (male or female) has to want to make it better.

3) If they acknowledge the problem but take no action to make it better, you have to wonder how much they really love you.


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## FeministInPink

kmetoyer said:


> I'm going on to about 3 weeks now without any intimacy from my husband. He always says he is to tired or hes to busy with work (hes in the military). I usually have to wait for him to start drinking to know that I might be able to get him in bed with me. That sounds horrible, trust me i know. I know that he watches porn, and accepts pictures from other women that are of an intimate nature. I've tried to send him these types of pictures in the past, and he told me flat out he did not want them. Its hurtful to know that your own husband doesn't lust after you or want you as badly as you want them. I've never cheated on him and patiently wait for him to come home to see if this trip home will be different. (Note: He is only gone from Sunday to Thursday, and he is home from Thursday night to Sunday evening)


I would say... see my comment to the previous poster 

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## LaReine

He definitely did not plan to get me pregnant- I was on implanon and we were using condoms, both failed but I wouldn't change it.

I'm not really unhappy, just sexually frustrated


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## Bobby5000

I disagree with the numbers and reasons. Here is how I see them with the first four around equal. 

1. Gay
2. Medication reduces drive or erectile dysfunction. 
3. Angry at wife, bad relationship. 
4. Madonna/***** complex. She is the mother of my children. 

I read a mob book and I knew they strayed but was surprised that many did not have sex with their wives. Seeing it as bad or bad women to do it with, they look for someone other than a mom. (that's may be why the term mother..er is a bad word.)


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## EleGirl

Bobby5000 said:


> I disagree with the numbers and reasons. Here is how I see them with the first four around equal.
> 
> 1. Gay
> 2. Medication reduces drive or erectile dysfunction.
> 3. Angry at wife, bad relationship.
> 4. Madonna/***** complex. She is the mother of my children.
> 
> I read a mob book and I knew they strayed but was surprised that many did not have sex with their wives. Seeing it as bad or bad women to do it with, they look for someone other than a mom. (that's may be why the term mother..er is a bad word.)


The numbers are from men who won't have sex with their wife. They self reported why they chose to make their marriage sexless. I think that their numbers/data is pretty accurate.


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## Volunteer86

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> I think I'm going on 5 or 6 weeks now. That may not be the record breaker but it's probably close. The excuse is an injury that he obtained working out at the gym. Yet he's never gone to the doctor and he still works out 5 days a week. I'm calling bs on it (but not to his face). I'm LD too (once a week is good for me), but I'm now dreaming about sex.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Has it changed any?


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## wringo123

Rosemary's Granddaughter said:


> I haven't read all of the posts, but am thinking out loud...I wonder how many stages the Sex Starved Wife goes through...Disbelief, Mourning, Resentment--I don't think there's ever Acceptance...


I have acceptance that my sex life is over...like some have expressed really don't even want it anymore at least not with him. But I struggle with the resentment that he never took seriously how much it has hurt me and he never cared enough to try and fix it. 

I really don't even want him showing any physical affection towards me now. For the lack of sex before, we were affectionate in non sexual ways. I have zero physical attraction for him now and no desire to be emotionally close. We are roommates and good friends.

Now I don't even want him touching me. It feels like I am kissing my brother. Kind of creepy.

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## wringo123

FeministInPink said:


> I agree with @uhtred. He's making excuses. For this to get better, he has to WANT to make a change, and I don't see that in what you describe.
> 
> And I think you need to ask yourself, how much does he really love you, if he doesn't care enough to find or work towards a solution for something that is making you so unhappy?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


qft

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## uhtred

That is so sad, and I understand the feeling. I have experienced the "kissing a sibling" feeling when sex was very rare. 

I don't know if you really can accept that it is over though. I think I can, but too often something brings it back.

What you can accept is that he will never understand how much he has hurt you. Its like a blind man not understanding how you feel about living in darkness.



wringo123 said:


> I have acceptance that my sex life is over...like some have expressed really don't even want it anymore at least not with him. But I struggle with the resentment that he never took seriously how much it has hurt me and he never cared enough to try and fix it.
> 
> I really don't even want him showing any physical affection towards me now. For the lack of sex before, we were affectionate in non sexual ways. I have zero physical attraction for him now and no desire to be emotionally close. We are roommates and good friends.
> 
> Now I don't even want him touching me. It feels like I am kissing my brother. Kind of creepy.
> 
> Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## AVR1962

wringo123 said:


> I have acceptance that my sex life is over...like some have expressed really don't even want it anymore at least not with him. But I struggle with the resentment that he never took seriously how much it has hurt me and he never cared enough to try and fix it.
> 
> I really don't even want him showing any physical affection towards me now. For the lack of sex before, we were affectionate in non sexual ways. I have zero physical attraction for him now and no desire to be emotionally close. We are roommates and good friends.
> 
> Now I don't even want him touching me. It feels like I am kissing my brother. Kind of creepy.
> 
> Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


I think when there has been so much hurt this is what finally happens and you either learn to live as roommates or you leave the marriage. The last several years I was married to my ex I did not want him near me, I did not want him to touch me. I thought we could live as friends for the sake of the family but I finally realized I was not living. I had financial security by staying but that's all I had. The last few times we did have sex it was like having sex with a stranger. I slept in the spare bedroom for 5 years dreaming and fantasizing about having sex. When my daughter decided to leave home I saw it as my chance to get out. The kids were raised and I was done feeling obligated to keep us all together. I have been on my own a year now. It was the best thing I could have done for myself to leave the marriage. I freed myself from so many things.


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## SunCMars

notmyrealname4 said:


> I have acceptance. Maybe because our low sex marriage is due largely to my husband's health issues and the meds he is taking.
> 
> No, he doesn't try to get healthy; but he's never had any willpower to do that sort of thing. Exercising is boring and he doesn't like "healthy" food. It's just his personality.
> 
> So, as you get older, if you are unhealthy; your sex drive will fade away.
> 
> There's a big difference in my sex drive, from even 3-4 years ago. And yes, it's probably atrophying from lack of use.
> 
> I'm looking forward to having my sex drive go away. Then I'll move from acceptance to peace. I am 51 and still get regular periods. Maybe after menopause, it will be gone.
> 
> Until then, sex every 4-6 weeks, depending. And the sex is problematic too.
> 
> But, the rest of our marriage is pretty good overall. So, I'm not going to divorce.
> 
> I would call that acceptance, of a sort.


You reckin' ?

I reckon' you rolled over. Gave up.
No spasm, no tingle, no sigh.

I understand the health thing. I do not understand his giving up.
No, his giving down. He should offer up alternate 'Hole-listic' medicine.

Your sex drive will go away. 
.....................................................................................
Until:

Until some Man-chanik lifts your hood, turns on the little light...down 'there' to look for the dik-hicky opening on your four banger.
Until he lays his wrench on the spark stem, screws hard, counter-clockwise [clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere].....pulls and cleans your plugs.

Then reverse his holy order. 

He then would straddle your frame, his butt over your saddle, lift his big leg high and give your transmission peddle a quick.....a very hard downward thrust. 

Smoke may come out of your rear end, but that is a good sign that your firing order is 'spot on'.

I absolutely hate giving up. I do.

You should too.....do.

Put the 'do' by some warm [future man's] warm register....let his do.. Uh, Dough-Boy rise to the occasion.

Just Sayin'

SCM


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## Holdingontoit

Giving up is easier and less stressful than fighting in vain. If you are tired of trying and failing, but do not have the guts to leave, give up. Maybe the loneliness that follows giving up will give you the motivation to leave. If not, giving up makes it easier to tolerate the sexlessness.


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## wringo123

It isn't giving up, it's accepting reality. 

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## heartsbeating

Many variations with reality... 

Accepting a person/situation isn't going to change (because they choose not to) then making the choice to conform to that - for whatever reason - sure, maybe acceptance could occur. 

I think acceptance of self is more appealing. Acceptance that companionship with emotional and physical intimacy is absolutely a need.


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## Satya

heartsbeating said:


> Many variations with reality...
> 
> Accepting a person/situation isn't going to change (because they choose not to) then making the choice to conform to that - for whatever reason - sure, maybe acceptance could occur.
> 
> I think acceptance of self is more appealing. Acceptance that companionship with emotional and physical intimacy is absolutely a need.


That's just what I was thinking.
In my mind, the reality is "I should have a healthy sex life." You (general) are choosing to accept otherwise if you stay in a relationship that doesn't meet that.

I've voiced my feelings many times on this subject. I still believe that no matter what - years invested, children, property, financial situation - one should choose a life where their needs can be met realistically over choosing to stay in an intolerable, unfair, or unsatisfying situation. However, if your choice is the latter, then I fear you will end up like my signature. Maybe it will take months, years, decades... But I think it will erode your self worth given enough time, and twist your spirit into an unhappy one. I think that being perpetually alone would be healthier by comparison. 

That's JMO.


----------



## MrsHolland

Satya said:


> That's just what I was thinking.
> In my mind, the reality is "I should have a healthy sex life." You (general) are choosing to accept otherwise if you stay in a relationship that doesn't meet that.
> 
> I've voiced my feelings many times on this subject. I still believe that no matter what - years invested, children, property, financial situation - one should choose a life where their needs can be met realistically over choosing to stay in an intolerable, unfair, or unsatisfying situation. However, if your choice is the latter, then I fear you will end up like my signature. Maybe it will take months, years, decades... But I think it will erode your self worth given enough time, and twist your spirit into an unhappy one. I think that being perpetually alone would be healthier by comparison.
> 
> That's JMO.


Firstly, in essence I agree, but here comes the but......

and I am only talking from a personal POV, it was all about the children and family unit. When I had my kids it came with a massive responsibility and I have never taken that lightly. I owed it to them to try for as long as possible and no regrets as they are the most amazing people I have ever met. I ended the marriage when it got to the tipping point of the health issues the torment was causing.

People can and do recover after a sexless marriages and TBH when I look back now I am grateful for the lessons because it empowered me to find the perfect match, an amazing man.


----------



## Satya

MrsHolland said:


> Firstly, in essence I agree, but here comes the but......
> 
> and I am only talking from a personal POV, it was all about the children and family unit. When I had my kids it came with a massive responsibility and I have never taken that lightly. I owed it to them to try for as long as possible and no regrets as they are the most amazing people I have ever met. I ended the marriage when it got to the tipping point of the health issues the torment was causing.
> 
> People can and do recover after a sexless marriages and TBH when I look back now I am grateful for the lessons because it empowered me to find the perfect match, an amazing man.


We're on the same page. You decided that you were going to give it your all. I also believe in having a timetable or a goal and not giving up immediately. I also believe that there's an end point, where you commit to doing something different once you've given it your best try. You knew when that tipping point you describe had been reached and you acted.

I also had a tipping point, although my situation is different than the typical faire we read here. I knew that mentally I was suffering and my health was suffering due to the depression and sadness, so I may not know your precise experience, but I can relate. I also decided to give it my all and I don't regret my choices, I only regret not having a.) TAM or b.) a close friend who was available to look out for my best interests. I may have healed a lot faster if those two things were available to me at the time.

The last thing from me is, while I have no personal experience of raising children (... yet...) I can understand... perhaps to a less primal extent... the meaning of responsibility to someone who depends upon you. If that is the case, my hope would be that I am the strongest, most resilient, most healthy person possible to be able take care of that person. I would know in my heart that staying in an intolerable situation, one which is mentally, emotionally, and/or physically taxing and disruptive, is going to make me less than my best.


----------



## MrsHolland

Satya said:


> We're on the same page. You decided that you were going to give it your all. I also believe in having a timetable or a goal and not giving up immediately. I also believe that there's an end point, where you commit to doing something different once you've given it your best try. You knew when that tipping point you describe had been reached and you acted.
> 
> I also had a tipping point, although my situation is different than the typical faire we read here. I knew that mentally I was suffering and my health was suffering due to the depression and sadness, so I may not know your precise experience, but I can relate. I also decided to give it my all and I don't regret my choices, I only regret not having a.) TAM or b.) a close friend who was available to look out for my best interests. I may have healed a lot faster if those two things were available to me at the time.
> 
> The last thing from me is, while I have no personal experience of raising children (... yet...) I can understand... perhaps to a less primal extent... the meaning of responsibility to someone who depends upon you. If that is the case, my hope would be that I am the strongest, most resilient, most healthy person possible to be able take care of that person. I would know in my heart that staying in an intolerable situation, one which is mentally, emotionally, and/or physically taxing and disruptive, is going to make me less than my best.


Are you trying for kids? I wish you well.

Each situation is different, in every other way my life was not intolerable so the tipping point took many years to reach and again I am OK with that now. So many great memories and I have an amazing co parent, we are the real life "modern family" and while it is still odd at times it works for us. We gave our kids the example that it is OK to move on if a marriage has come to its natural end but that their parents love them more than life which is why ex and I chose to be amicable and put the kids first.

The worst day of my life was telling the kids we were getting divorced, I don't wish that on anyone.


----------



## SunCMars

Satya said:


> That's just what I was thinking.
> In my mind, the reality is "I should have a healthy sex life." You (general) are choosing to accept otherwise if you stay in a relationship that doesn't meet that.
> 
> I've voiced my feelings many times on this subject. I still believe that no matter what - years invested, children, property, financial situation - one should choose a life where their needs can be met realistically over choosing to stay in an intolerable, unfair, or unsatisfying situation. However, if your choice is the latter, then I fear you will end up like my signature. Maybe it will take months, years, decades... But I think it will erode your self worth given enough time, and twist your spirit into an unhappy one. *I think that being perpetually alone would be healthier by comparison.
> *
> That's JMO.


Stop it. You lie.

You would not be anywhere near 'happy' being alone. You are too warm and loving for that 'alone' nonsense.

Being alone is just that.

For me?
I cannot make myself laugh, alone...all the time.
I cannot make myself sing, alone.....all the time.

I am tired of exercising alone.
I am tired of boating alone.
I am tired of golfing alone.
I am tired of doing everything I ENJOY, doing it alone.

Yes, I have male pals and we do fun things together. But, people have their own lives and their own schedules.

But, it is not the same.

..............................................................................................................

Of course, we do a lot of things together., i.e., dining out, travel, visiting friends....arguing!

It is so satisfying looking at the women you love swinging a club, pulling in a fish from a boat, running ahead of you....looking at her legs move in her shorts, her boobs bouncing while running and think about removing her clothes.....one article at a time.

Oh, and it is good to hear a loving women's voice, see her coy eyes blink in your direction.

Just Sayin'


----------



## KrisAmiss

SunCMars said:


> Stop it. You lie.
> 
> You would not be anywhere near 'happy' being alone. You are too warm and loving for that 'alone' nonsense.
> 
> Being alone is just that.
> 
> For me?
> I cannot make myself laugh, alone...all the time.
> I cannot make myself sing, alone.....all the time.
> 
> I am tired of exercising alone.
> I am tired of boating alone.
> I am tired of golfing alone.
> I am tired of doing everything I ENJOY, doing it alone.
> 
> Yes, I have male pals and we do fun things together. But, people have their own lives and their own schedules.
> 
> But, it is not the same.
> 
> ..............................................................................................................
> 
> Of course, we do a lot of things together., i.e., dining out, travel, visiting friends....arguing!
> 
> It is so satisfying looking at the women you love swinging a club, pulling in a fish from a boat, running ahead of you....looking at her legs move in her shorts, her boobs bouncing while running and think about removing her clothes.....one article at a time.
> 
> Oh, and it is good to hear a loving women's voice, see her coy eyes blink in your direction.
> 
> Just Sayin'


Don't forget, having sex...alone. ;-)

I feel your pain, SCM.

We are so likeable. How could anyone choose to not be with us, having fun?


----------



## wringo123

Satya said:


> That's just what I was thinking.
> In my mind, the reality is "I should have a healthy sex life." You (general) are choosing to accept otherwise if you stay in a relationship that doesn't meet that.
> 
> I've voiced my feelings many times on this subject. I still believe that no matter what - years invested, children, property, financial situation - one should choose a life where their needs can be met realistically over choosing to stay in an intolerable, unfair, or unsatisfying situation. However, if your choice is the latter, then I fear you will end up like my signature. Maybe it will take months, years, decades... But I think it will erode your self worth given enough time, and twist your spirit into an unhappy one. I think that being perpetually alone would be healthier by comparison.
> 
> That's JMO.


Reality is i should be 110 lbs and I should be rich...I get what you are saying, but if one's happiness depends on what one "should have" or even getting what one "deserves", happiness is highly unlikely. There is no guarantee that you will ever have what you should and or what you deserve in life. 

I have often thought that I would be happier alone, but reality is I would just be trading one set of problems for another and one type of loneliness for another. It is about picking my battles and priorities.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Satya said:


> I've voiced my feelings many times on this subject. I still believe that no matter what - years invested, children, property, financial situation - one should choose a life where their needs can be met realistically over choosing to stay in an intolerable, unfair, or unsatisfying situation. However, if your choice is the latter, then I fear you will end up like my signature. Maybe it will take months, years, decades... But I think it will erode your self worth given enough time, and twist your spirit into an unhappy one. I think that being perpetually alone would be healthier by comparison.


I think we all agree that accepting a sexless marriage is pretty much the same as agreeing to an unhappy life.

Your suggestion seems to assume that, if we who are choosing to stay unhappily married would divorce, there is a realistic chance that our unmet needs would be met. Some of us believe that the chance of this happening is quite small, while the chance of other currently met needs becoming unmet is highly likely. So we do not view it as moving from unhappiness to happiness, we view it as choosing between unhappinesses. At least this way we get to choose which unhappiness we suffer.

I agree that staying pretty much guarantees continual unhappiness. While leaving provides at least some small chance of happiness. But, it also provides a chance at things being even worse than they are now. Some of us value loss aversion over upside potential. We are probably foolish and mistaken. But even though we are lonely, we are not alone. There are plenty of people making the same stupid choice.


----------



## EllisRedding

Holdingontoit said:


> *I think we all agree that accepting a sexless marriage is pretty much the same as agreeing to an unhappy life.*
> 
> Your suggestion seems to assume that, if we who are choosing to stay unhappily married would divorce, there is a realistic chance that our unmet needs would be met. Some of us believe that the chance of this happening is quite small, while the chance of other currently met needs becoming unmet is highly likely. So we do not view it as moving from unhappiness to happiness, we view it as choosing between unhappinesses. At least this way we get to choose which unhappiness we suffer.
> 
> I agree that staying pretty much guarantees continual unhappiness. While leaving provides at least some small chance of happiness. But, it also provides a chance at things being even worse than they are now. Some of us value loss aversion over upside potential. We are probably foolish and mistaken. But even though we are lonely, we are not alone. There are plenty of people making the same stupid choice.


In all fairness, I don't know if I necessarily agree with the bolded. I would probably be in what is considered a sexless marriage, and the reality, because all other aspects of our marriage/life are going well, it doesn't bother me much (anymore at least). I actually do live a rather happy life (and maybe that is part of the "problem" as I have very little incentive to fix the one thing that is broken). Now, on the other side, if a sex life was missing and the rest of married life was miserable, it would be time to end it and move on.

Everyone just places a different value on sex, and really, that value can change depending on the circumstances.


----------



## Holdingontoit

MrsHolland said:


> So many great memories and I have an amazing co parent, we are the real life "modern family" and while it is still odd at times it works for us. We gave our kids the example that it is OK to move on if a marriage has come to its natural end but that their parents love them more than life which is why ex and I chose to be amicable and put the kids first.


I stayed because I knew that once we divorced I would not be able to tolerate seeing my kids or my ex-wife. At all. The only way I could tolerate divorce was to move hundred of miles away and never see them and never hear stray comments about them. I knew I could not tolerate dropping them off at their mother's place and seeing her boyfriend's car in the driveway and knowing that another man was raising my kids. I knew I did not have the guts to do that. Or to change jobs so I had more free time so I could reasonably argue for more than every other weekend and every other Wednesday.

So I stayed. And I was rewarded with awesome kids and the privilege of watching every day of their childhood. But you are a far better and stronger person than I could ever be. Kudos.


----------



## wringo123

EllisRedding said:


> In all fairness, I don't know if I necessarily agree with the bolded. I would probably be in what is considered a sexless marriage, and the reality, because all other aspects of our marriage/life are going well, it doesn't bother me much (anymore at least). I actually do live a rather happy life (and maybe that is part of the "problem" as I have very little incentive to fix the one thing that is broken). Now, on the other side, if a sex life was missing and the rest of married life was miserable, it would be time to end it and move on.
> 
> Everyone just places a different value on sex, and really, that value can change depending on the circumstances.


90% of the time, I feel as you do. Right now, I am in the middle of that 10%. Most of the time, I am not sure what triggers it, but I do know this time, other issues have come up (having nothing to do with H) in my life that made it come to the surface.


----------



## EllisRedding

wringo123 said:


> 90% of the time, I feel as you do. Right now, I am in the middle of that 10%. Most of the time, I am not sure what triggers it, but I do know this time, other issues have come up (having nothing to do with H) in my life that made it come to the surface.


I think it makes sense. When things aren't going well in one area, we typically analyze all other areas, even those unrelated.


----------



## Satya

wringo123 said:


> Reality is i should be 110 lbs and I should be rich...I get what you are saying, but if one's happiness depends on what one "should have" or even getting what one "deserves", happiness is highly unlikely. There is no guarantee that you will ever have what you should and or what you deserve in life.
> 
> I have often thought that I would be happier alone, but reality is I would just be trading one set of problems for another and one type of loneliness for another. It is about picking my battles and priorities.


That's your choice and I respect it. I agree that there are no guarantees in anything we do. I guess I feel that one can definitely hurt their chances by not trying and I just find that unfortunate.


----------



## Satya

EllisRedding said:


> Everyone just places a different value on sex, and really, that value can change depending on the circumstances.


That's a good point to keep in mind. Sometimes I wrongly assume that others feel the way I do, so thanks for keeping me balanced.


----------



## EllisRedding

Satya said:


> That's a good point to keep in mind. Sometimes I wrongly assume that others feel the way I do, so thanks for keeping me balanced.


If you had asked my opinion 3,4,5 years ago, it would probably be different then it is now lol. For a variety of reasons it is just something that I have lost interest in over that time period (or come to accept I guess), so it is much easier to focus on all the good things in my life which does greatly outweigh the few negatives. Of course the next person may have the complete opposite view


----------



## MrsHolland

Holdingontoit said:


> I stayed because I knew that once we divorced I would not be able to tolerate seeing my kids or my ex-wife. At all. The only way I could tolerate divorce was to move hundred of miles away and never see them and never hear stray comments about them. I knew I could not tolerate dropping them off at their mother's place and seeing her boyfriend's car in the driveway and knowing that another man was raising my kids. I knew I did not have the guts to do that. Or to change jobs so I had more free time so I could reasonably argue for more than every other weekend and every other Wednesday.
> 
> *So I stayed. And I was rewarded with awesome kids and the privilege of watching every day of their childhood. But you are a far better and stronger person than I could ever be. Kudos.*


Thank you. 

The reality is though that my heart is still broken even after almost 8 years. While my kids have thrived there is still pain for all of us. I was a WAHM at the time and from day one we did 50/50 shared care (the norm in Aussie) and it broke my heart to not see them everyday. Now they are so much older it is easier because we txt often and they set the routine of who's house they are at.

But the flip side is that I ended up having what was a great lifestyle, free of a dead marriage but for the first time in many years time to myself with the reassurance of knowing that their dad is one of the worlds best so they were safe. First year was seriously difficult and not so amicable but once ex and I got over our own pain we settled into co parenting well. The kids have always known ex and I are a united front when it comes to parenting and make all major decisions together. We even chose to live within 25 mins of each other (which in our big city is like being neigbours) to make it easier on the kids getting from one house to the other. We share all major events as a family.


----------



## [email protected]

How about suggestions for initiating, I've tried rubbing,caressing, kisses and sometimes just short of grabbing on and just not letting go until I get what I want. But with sex being so few and far between his stamina is no good at all. I start to get going and he is done. This is the most frustrating part for me. I don't want to have to be trashy just so that he will want to have sex.


----------



## FeministInPink

SunCMars said:


> Stop it. You lie.
> 
> You would not be anywhere near 'happy' being alone. You are too warm and loving for that 'alone' nonsense.
> 
> Being alone is just that.
> 
> For me?
> I cannot make myself laugh, alone...all the time.
> I cannot make myself sing, alone.....all the time.
> 
> I am tired of exercising alone.
> I am tired of boating alone.
> I am tired of golfing alone.
> I am tired of doing everything I ENJOY, doing it alone.
> 
> Yes, I have male pals and we do fun things together. But, people have their own lives and their own schedules.
> 
> But, it is not the same.
> 
> ..............................................................................................................
> 
> Of course, we do a lot of things together., i.e., dining out, travel, visiting friends....arguing!
> 
> It is so satisfying looking at the women you love swinging a club, pulling in a fish from a boat, running ahead of you....looking at her legs move in her shorts, her boobs bouncing while running and think about removing her clothes.....one article at a time.
> 
> Oh, and it is good to hear a loving women's voice, see her coy eyes blink in your direction.
> 
> Just Sayin'


Fair point. I think life is better with a loving partner.

However, I would be much happier being alone than in an unhappy or even mediocre relationship, like my former marriage, because in an unhappy relationship, you lose hope.

Being alone, there is always the possibility and the hope of meeting someone with whom you CAN have a happy relationship. There was a lot which I liked about being alone and single. I enjoy a lot of solitary hobbies and activities, and I enjoy traveling alone. There's a lot of freedom in it. It can be hard to find the time for those solitary pursuits, and making/finding alone time when in a relationship. (Real Estate doesn't quite understand my desire to be alone, he wants me around all the time, unless I have plans with other people. I have to MAKE alone time for myself.) There is a lot which I like about being in a relationship. I like spending time with someone who gets me and understands me the way Real Estate does, because that's hard to find. I like cuddling and joking around and being goofy with him, because I can't really do that with anyone else. I like having someone to share all my little triumphs and my small losses with. Having someone who will encourage and cheer me on with both big and little challenges.

I was happy single, and I am happy in a relationship. But I am also one of those people for whom happy is a natural state of being. If I am less than happy, it's because there is a problem somewhere.


----------



## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> If you had asked my opinion 3,4,5 years ago, it would probably be different then it is now lol. For a variety of reasons it is just something that I have lost interest in over that time period (or come to accept I guess), so it is much easier to focus on all the good things in my life which does greatly outweigh the few negatives. Of course the next person may have the complete opposite view


If your wife has any sense, she's probably very worried.


----------



## SunCMars

FeministInPink said:


> But I am also one of those people for whom happy is a natural state of being.


Me too. 

Two natural states:
Happy or in Neutral.


----------



## DepressedHusband

testosterone lowers over time the longer a man is in a commited relationship, there are many factors to this, low cholesterol low fat diets among them.


----------



## heartsbeating

I caught us in a moment... driving with dogs in the car, fave music playing, sunshine glistening a certain way... and feeling elated to be part of that, his companion.

However he'd also gone down on me the night before and I'd (somewhat embarrassingly) fallen asleep straight after, when we were going to continue our fun. When I'd apologized, he laughed and told me not to be ridiculous. That connection is important to me, at least, and I suspect influences those other moments of closeness with him. It's not just about the act itself, or the physical release and sensation, it's that it's with _him_.


----------



## heartsbeating

What's my post got to do with this thread? Because, hubs and I got to where sex was an indicator of other issues - individually and within our dynamic. It was actually him that suggested we figure out what was going on; I was impatient and likely to have walked. I've posted this before but when we weren't in a good place, friend took me out, barman saw I was miserable and offered to take me home and put a smile back on my face. Of course I declined. It wasn't about feeling desired by men... it was about feeling that with _my_ man. All I can say is we learned a hell of a lot about ourselves, as well as each other, during the process. In reasonable relationships, the dynamic created is between the two, and has little place for blame. Even when it feels easy to. That's not to suggest staying or going, simply that something 'simple' as sex isn't always 'simple'.

Relationships, eh?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

heartsbeating said:


> I caught us in a moment... driving with dogs in the car, fave music playing, sunshine glistening a certain way... and feeling elated to be part of that, his companion.
> 
> However he'd also gone down on me the night before and I'd (somewhat embarrassingly) fallen asleep straight after, when we were going to continue our fun. When I'd apologized, he laughed and told me not to be ridiculous. That connection is important to me, at least, and I suspect influences those other moments of closeness with him. It's not just about the act itself, or the physical release and sensation, it's that it's with _him_.


Indeed! Some of my fondest events with my wife were ones in which I didn't finish.


----------



## EleGirl

[email protected] said:


> How about suggestions for initiating, I've tried rubbing,caressing, kisses and sometimes just short of grabbing on and just not letting go until I get what I want. But with sex being so few and far between his stamina is no good at all. I start to get going and he is done. This is the most frustrating part for me. I don't want to have to be trashy just so that he will want to have sex.


It sounds like you initiate but he's just not interested. And the more you try, the more it will turn him off.

You cannot make him want sex. That's something that you need to come to realize. The desire needs to come from within him.

Instead you need to stop pursuing him. Read the books mentioned in the first post of this thread. It's a good place to start.


----------



## EleGirl

DepressedHusband said:


> testosterone lowers over time the longer a man is in a commited relationship, there are many factors to this, low cholesterol low fat diets among them.


Well, it seems that low cholesterol and low fat diets have nothing at all to do with how long a guy is in their marriage. The guy would probably have those same problems if he was never married.

If a person's married, and their libido drops, it's their responsibility as a spouse to find out what the problem is and fix it.

If the only reason that a guy's testosterone is low is that he's been in committed relationship for a long time, then he can easily fix that. It has to do with him being a slouch in the relationship and not doing what is needed to maintain the passion. Sure his wife might be just as much a slouch as he is. But he's responsible for his own behavior just as she is responsible for hers.

Get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Rekindle the passion in your marriage. Stop making excuses.


----------



## DepressedHusband

EleGirl said:


> Well, it seems that low cholesterol and low fat diets have nothing at all to do with how long a guy is in their marriage. The guy would probably have those same problems if he was never married.
> 
> If a person's married, and their libido drops, it's their responsibility as a spouse to find out what the problem is and fix it.
> 
> If the only reason that a guy's testosterone is low is that he's been in committed relationship for a long time, then he can easily fix that. It has to do with him being a slouch in the relationship and not doing what is needed to maintain the passion. Sure his wife might be just as much a slouch as he is. But he's responsible for his own behavior just as she is responsible for hers.
> 
> Get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Rekindle the passion in your marriage. Stop making excuses.


It isn't a excuse, it is a well documented hormonal phenomenon, likely to increase genetic diversity by forcing repairing with newer females. 

I spent 21 yrs with the same woman, our libidos ebbed and flowed, it was what it was. 

BTW you can't make testosterone without adequate saturated fat intake and cholesterol intake, both are core components in making most of our sex and endocrine hormones.


----------



## EleGirl

DepressedHusband said:


> It isn't a excuse, it is a well documented hormonal phenomenon, likely to increase genetic diversity by forcing repairing with newer females.


Are you really trying to argue that the biology of men in long term relationships cause these men to stop eating enough saturated fat and cholesterol so that their T levels go down. Then that forces the men to repair with new females and their T-levels go UP? Does getting with new women also make men start eating more saturated fat and cholesterol?
Get real. Not eating enough saturated fat and cholesterol has nothing to do with long term relationships.


DepressedHusband said:


> I spent 21 yrs with the same woman, our libidos ebbed and flowed, it was what it was.


Have you ever read the books I suggested? Try it, you might learn something.



DepressedHusband said:


> BTW you can't make testosterone without adequate saturated fat intake and cholesterol intake, both are core components in making most of our sex and endocrine hormones.


Of course, it's true that testosterone cannot be made without adequate saturated fat intake and cholesterol intake. But that has zero to do with losing libido due to a long-term relationship.

Long term relationships do not cause inadequate saturated fat intake and cholesterol intake. A man choses all on his own to not take in enough saturated fat and cholesterol. Using something that can be easily fixed is an excuse.. just eat more saturated fat and cholesterol if that's the reason T levels are low. It's not the wife's or the relationship's fault.

There are ways to keep sexual interest and passion alive and well in a marriage. Again, read the books.


----------



## SunCMars

EleGirl said:


> Well, it seems that low cholesterol and low fat diets have nothing at all to do with how long a guy is in their marriage. The guy would probably have those same problems if he was never married.
> 
> If a person's married, and their libido drops, it's their responsibility as a spouse to find out what the problem is and fix it.
> 
> *If the only reason that a guy's testosterone is low is that he's been in committed relationship for a long time, then he can easily fix that.* It has to do with him being a slouch in the relationship and not doing what is needed to maintain the passion. Sure his wife might be just as much a slouch as he is. But he's responsible for his own behavior just as she is responsible for hers.
> 
> Get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Rekindle the passion in your marriage. Stop making excuses.


E.G.

I am going to put you on the spot.

With respect to the highlighted words above, how do you suggest that he fix that?

I know the answer. The others on this post/site may not.


----------



## EleGirl

SunCMars said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the only reason that a guy's testosterone is low is that he's been in committed relationship for a long time, then he can easily fix that.
> 
> 
> 
> E.G.
> 
> I am going to put you on the spot.
> 
> With respect to the highlighted words above, how do you suggest that he fix that?
> 
> I know the answer. The others on this post/site may not.
Click to expand...

He gets off his ass and starts acting like a loving husband. He starts chasing her again, starts spending lots of time with her, etc. That's why I suggested the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs".

He could throw in some exercise for himself as well. 

Find some things to do with his woman that the two of them love.


----------



## SunCMars

EleGirl said:


> He gets off his ass and starts acting like a loving husband. He starts chasing her again, starts spending lots of time with her, etc. That's why I suggested the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs".
> 
> He could throw in some exercise for himself as well.
> 
> Find some things to do with his woman that the two of them love.


Yes, on these things. These are relationship investments. Who could argue against any of that.

What about the Low T, that is being touted in the post? You skipped over that part.
You don't buy into it?

Exercise is good. Does it build up T levels? Maybe if you lower your BMI substantially.


----------



## EleGirl

SunCMars said:


> Yes, on these things. These are relationship investments. Who could argue against any of that.
> 
> What about the Low T, that is being touted in the post? You skipped over that part.
> You don't buy into it?
> 
> Exercise is good. Does it build up T levels? Maybe if you lower your BMI substantially.


He mentioned two causes of low-T. I addressed the two reasons he gave.

1) He basically said that long term relationships cause low T... no reason other than the fact that it's a long-term relationship. This is true. It's speculated that the reason for this is that the competition between men for a mate is no longer an issue.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...m-relationships-and-men-s-testosterone-levels

2) Then he added the low consumption of saturated fat and cholesterol can also lead to low-T. It's true that consumption low consumption of these things can lead to low-T. But this has nothing to do with long term relationships.

There are many things that can lead to low-T levels. Most of them have nothing to do with a man being in a long term relationship. I did not address all the possible causes of low-t. There is good info on that, obtainable with a google search.


----------



## EleGirl

SunCMars said:


> Yes, on these things. These are relationship investments. Who could argue against any of that.
> 
> What about the Low T, that is being touted in the post? You skipped over that part.
> You don't buy into it?
> 
> Exercise is good. Does it build up T levels? Maybe if you lower your BMI substantially.


Something else interesting.............

"Moreover, the results provide new evidence that a person's relationship quality decreases as his or her partner's testosterone levels increase, and, curiously, that such associations are stronger among men than women."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...-in-testosterone-explain-relationship-quality


----------



## SunCMars

EleGirl said:


> Something else interesting.............
> 
> "Moreover, the results provide new evidence that a person's relationship quality decreases as his or her partner's testosterone levels increase, and, curiously, that such associations are stronger among men than women."
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...-in-testosterone-explain-relationship-quality


Yes, 'Roid' rage.

High T= more aggression, more temper outbursts, less patience, not romantic, wham-bam sex = a less attractive male.


----------



## ConanHub

SunCMars said:


> Yes, 'Roid' rage.
> 
> High T= more aggression, more temper outbursts, less patience, not romantic, wham-bam sex = a less attractive male.


Ummm... Also more passion and ravaging.

I have always had a temper and probably high T levels.

I learned control. Been with Mrs. C for 26 years and she has learned my temper is no reflection on my love for her and she quite enjoys that I still chase her and ravage her.

She likes the muscles too :wink2:


----------



## SunCMars

ConanHub said:


> Ummm... Also more passion and ravaging.
> 
> I have always had a temper and probably high T levels.
> 
> I learned control. Been with Mrs. C for 26 years and she has learned my temper is no reflection on my love for her and she quite enjoys that I still chase her and ravage her.
> 
> She likes the muscles too :wink2:


My 'T' was so high it progressed to 'U' then to 'V'....UV from the Sun.

When high T meets the Tiger who is my wife, the fur doth fly, flyed. flown.

Lions and Tigers, Oh my!
........................................................................................
I burned up the roads with my T. 

Long, very long runs.

Then: A medium sized dog with a medium sized tail, hard as nails.
Now: Run, bike, swim moderately.....just short of breaking something I need to move with, get out of bed with.

Was doing 8 mile runs regularly. I entered a 10K a month ago and did OK for a 70 year old. About 54 minutes. 
I have not run well since...tore a calf tendon.


----------



## DepressedHusband

EleGirl said:


> He gets off his ass and starts acting like a loving husband. He starts chasing her again, starts spending lots of time with her, etc. That's why I suggested the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs".
> 
> He could throw in some exercise for himself as well.
> 
> Find some things to do with his woman that the two of them love.


I think your idea of what marriage is, is the more likely problem, a truly good marriage, is a friendship at its core, the attraction comes and goes, it requires give and take. I have 21 yrs on the subject, how about you ?


----------



## Handy

* EleGirl
Find some things to do with his woman that the two of them love. *

Like watching TV all day or buying things from QVC? Well that pertains to my W.

OOPS, this is a sex starved wife thread. I am the sex starved H. I read it could be my fault because I am too predictable and don't insist on excitement, new, or risky (to her) activities. OTH according to her, it is because I should have ED at my age but I don't have ED. No win so why try.

BTW I great empathy for sex starved women. I think more women need to talk about it with other women and men.


----------



## EleGirl

DepressedHusband said:


> I think your idea of what marriage is, is the more likely problem, a truly good marriage, is a friendship at its core, the attraction comes and goes, it requires give and take. I have 21 yrs on the subject, how about you ?


37

Clearly you have no idea at all of what my idea about my idea of what marriage is.

If you read the books I posted you would find out what my idea of marriage is.


----------



## EleGirl

Handy said:


> * EleGirl
> Find some things to do with his woman that the two of them love. *
> 
> Like watching TV all day or buying things from QVC? Well that pertains to my W.
> 
> OOPS, this is a sex starved wife thread. I am the sex starved H. I read it could be my fault because I am too predictable and don't insist on excitement, new, or risky (to her) activities. OTH according to her, it is because I should have ED at my age but I don't have ED. No win so why try.
> 
> BTW I great empathy for sex starved women. I think more women need to talk about it with other women and men.


Like watching TV all day or buying things from QVC? --sounds like this is not something that you love to do. So no, it does not fit what I suggested.

This thread is for women in this situation. It was started because there was no safe place on TAM, or much of anywhere else, for women in this situation to post.

There are hundreds of threads on TAM for men in your situation. You can even start another thread to more directly address your own issues. I'll be glad to respond on such a thread.


----------



## Atomicantt

So what exactly is the number of times per week that having sex makes it a sexless marriage. I know that I do not get to be intimate with my wife of 21 years enough. We haven't since the birth of our first child. Even before that. When I think back to dating before I was married I realize that there is something wrong. Several years ago I did become involved with another woman. Not sexually nor even romantically it was someone that paid attention to me and enjoyed conversation. (lame I know) I was not emotionally tied to the woman. My wife found out and it was all kinds of accusal and she said betrayal. I agree I would feel the same. However, she had never been as interested in sex. When it did occur it was missionary alone ...no foreplay rush to the end and roll over. That doesn't excuse the behavior. I made a concerted effort to romance my wife again. I am not sure it actually worked. I have attempted to have discussions about this almost weekly it seemed for about 3 years...finally during the end of last year she admitted she didn't love me and might not ever have loved me. Well, I immediately decided to leave....then she said it was a mistake. she did not mean to say that she didn't love me only that she didn't love me the same way. Well because I love her and I wanted to continue working on this (i am a bit single minded on trying to address the issue it seems) And surprise back to the same behavior. 

So some advice how do you have a conversation with someone that is refusing to discuss the issue. I suppose I could just leave and then have the discussion but at that point for me, I would not be coming back. We talk every night. We spend the weekends together. I bring it up on a regular basis. Still, there is no traction. Maybe some methods or a book that has some tips.


----------



## EleGirl

Atomicantt said:


> So what exactly is the number of times per week that having sex makes it a sexless marriage. I know that I do not get to be intimate with my wife of 21 years enough. We haven't since the birth of our first child. Even before that. When I think back to dating before I was married I realize that there is something wrong. Several years ago I did become involved with another woman. Not sexually nor even romantically it was someone that paid attention to me and enjoyed conversation. (lame I know) I was not emotionally tied to the woman. My wife found out and it was all kinds of accusal and she said betrayal. I agree I would feel the same. However, she had never been as interested in sex. When it did occur it was missionary alone ...no foreplay rush to the end and roll over. That doesn't excuse the behavior. I made a concerted effort to romance my wife again. I am not sure it actually worked. I have attempted to have discussions about this almost weekly it seemed for about 3 years...finally during the end of last year she admitted she didn't love me and might not ever have loved me. Well, I immediately decided to leave....then she said it was a mistake. she did not mean to say that she didn't love me only that she didn't love me the same way. Well because I love her and I wanted to continue working on this (i am a bit single minded on trying to address the issue it seems) And surprise back to the same behavior.
> 
> So some advice how do you have a conversation with someone that is refusing to discuss the issue. I suppose I could just leave and then have the discussion but at that point for me, I would not be coming back. We talk every night. We spend the weekends together. I bring it up on a regular basis. Still, there is no traction. Maybe some methods or a book that has some tips.


A sexless marriage is one in which the couple has marriage 10 or fewer times a year.

If you want to get input into your situation, please start your own thread. That way people can give you input.


I can also move this post into a thread of your own if you want that. Just let me know.


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> If your wife has any sense, she's probably very worried.


I think she is but tries to hide it better then in the past. It might be a little easier for her maybe b/c I am no longer frustrated/resentful, which would eventually come out in how I responded to her. Not sure my W would fit the "sex starved wife" classification, at least in terms of how the other ladies here have described.


----------



## FeministInPink

EleGirl said:


> Well, it seems that low cholesterol and low fat diets have nothing at all to do with how long a guy is in their marriage. The guy would probably have those same problems if he was never married.
> 
> If a person's married, and their libido drops, it's their responsibility as a spouse to find out what the problem is and fix it.
> 
> *If the only reason that a guy's testosterone is low is that he's been in committed relationship for a long time*, then he can easily fix that. It has to do with him being a slouch in the relationship and not doing what is needed to maintain the passion. Sure his wife might be just as much a slouch as he is. But he's responsible for his own behavior just as she is responsible for hers.
> 
> Get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Rekindle the passion in your marriage. Stop making excuses.


I would think that the bolded portion is correlation/coincidence, rather than causation.

If you're in a relationship for a long time, TIME is a factor as well. And an important one! If I met my partner when we were in our mid 20s, and we were together for 20 yrs, of course he would have lower testosterone at 45 than at 25, because testosterone levels naturally drop over time. It's not the relationship's fault; it's nature. Knowing that, it might behoove men to do things to maintain a healthy testosterone level in general.

It's not because you're in a LTR; it's because you've gotten older!

(Man, this makes me with that I had met Real Estate 20 yrs ago. I would have liked to have known him when he was all hopped up on young man testosterone, LOL! It also makes me think I need to get him to start exercising more.)


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

FeministInPink said:


> I would think that the bolded portion is correlation/coincidence, rather than causation.
> 
> If you're in a relationship for a long time, TIME is a factor as well. And an important one! If I met my partner when we were in our mid 20s, and we were together for 20 yrs, of course he would have lower testosterone at 45 than at 25, because testosterone levels naturally drop over time. It's not the relationship's fault; it's nature. Knowing that, it might behoove men to do things to maintain a healthy testosterone level in general.
> 
> It's not because you're in a LTR; it's because you've gotten older!
> 
> (Man, this makes me with that I had met Real Estate 20 yrs ago. I would have liked to have known him when he was all hopped up on young man testosterone, LOL! It also makes me think I need to get him to start exercising more.)


Spot on, from start to finish.


----------



## FeministInPink

I would also think that decreasing physical activity with age would prematurely accelerate the drop in testosterone. I've read that in general, people become less active when they get into relationships (don't exercise as much or engage in physical activities as much), and while I haven't read anything to back up this theory, I would venture that having kids has a similar effect. (Who has time for weekend biking adventures when you have a toddler?)

BUT I have met/known men in LTRs who still have high levels of testosterone, and they are all physically active and place a priority on that. I would bet money THAT is causation.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## EllisRedding

FeministInPink said:


> I would also think that decreasing physical activity with age would prematurely accelerate the drop in testosterone. I've read that in general, people become less active when they get into relationships (don't exercise as much or engage in physical activities as much), and while I haven't read anything to back up this theory, I would venture that having kids has a similar effect. (Who has time for weekend biking adventures when you have a toddler?)
> 
> BUT I have met/known men in LTRs who still have high levels of testosterone, and they are all physically active and place a priority on that. I would bet money THAT is causation.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Well, I think just consider that something like stress can have a negative impact on your hormone levels as well. So, as men age their T naturally declines. Add on increased stress from raising a family, work, etc... and you could see where it has a cascading effect. As much as being physically active is beneficial, there is only so much it can offset, and actually being too physically active could be more negative (fatigue, compromised immune system, etc...). Here is an article that actually states being too active can decrease your libido:

? How Exercising Too Much Can Lower Your Sex Drive | Men?s Health



> Hitting the gym regularly might be shrinking your gut, but go too hard and something else might be diminishing, too: your sex drive.
> 
> At least, that’s what researchers out of the University of North Carolina is suggesting, after their study found that frequent and high intensity exercise is linked to a lower libido.
> 
> In the study of 1,077 active men who ran, walked, biked, swam, or lifted, those who said they trained at the lowest intensities were nearly 7 times as likely to report a normal or high libido than those who trained at the highest levels of intensity.
> 
> Plus, those with the highest duration of chronic training—the total number of hours per week they trained, multiplied by how many years they sustained it for—were about 4 times as likely to report a normal or high libido than those with lower training volumes.
> 
> This shows that the men who trained the hardest or for the longest were significantly more likely to report a lower libido.
> 
> Intense exercise training may spark a condition called “exercise hypogonadal male condition,” which occurs when the hormones testosterone and luteinizing hormone are suppressed, the researchers say. It’s also possible that increased volumes of intense exercise can lead to both physical and mental fatigue, which can cut your desire and motivation for sex.
> 
> Still, it’s important to note that the study was done on men who already exercised—prior research has shown that increasing physical activity may actually boost testosterone levels for sedentary men. (Find out what happens when your body is low on testosterone.)
> 
> The problem, then, seems to be going too hard for too long. For example, 15 percent of guys in the study who exercised for more than 10 hours a week had a low libido, compared to just 2 percent of men who exercise for 4 to 6 hours.
> 
> Bottom line: If you notice your sex drive flopping, loop in your doctor, and make sure to let him or her know your gym routine. (Light treatment may help boost your libido, too.)


----------



## uhtred

I agree that that is the standard definition of "sexless", but for this thread I think I'd count "sex starved" as a marriage where the wife is getting substantially less sex than she needs to be happy.

I'm not being argumentative, just trying to say that its possible for someone to have sex more than 10X / year but still feel sex-starved. 





EleGirl said:


> A sexless marriage is one in which the couple has marriage 10 or fewer times a year.
> 
> snip


----------



## EllisRedding

uhtred said:


> I agree that that is the standard definition of "sexless", but for this thread I think I'd count "sex starved" as a marriage where the wife is getting substantially less sex than she needs to be happy.
> 
> *I'm not being argumentative*, just trying to say that its possible for someone to have sex more than 10X / year but still feel sex-starved.


Agreed, I don't necessarily correlate one with the other. You could be having plenty of sex but still be sex starved if it comes short of your needs. You could also be in a sexless marriage and not be sex starved.

As far as the bolded, sounds like exactly what someone would say who was trying to be argumentative


----------



## EleGirl

FeministInPink said:


> I would think that the bolded portion is correlation/coincidence, rather than causation.
> 
> If you're in a relationship for a long time, TIME is a factor as well. And an important one! If I met my partner when we were in our mid 20s, and we were together for 20 yrs, of course he would have lower testosterone at 45 than at 25, because testosterone levels naturally drop over time. It's not the relationship's fault; it's nature. Knowing that, it might behoove men to do things to maintain a healthy testosterone level in general.
> 
> It's not because you're in a LTR; it's because you've gotten older!
> 
> (Man, this makes me with that I had met Real Estate 20 yrs ago. I would have liked to have known him when he was all hopped up on young man testosterone, LOL! It also makes me think I need to get him to start exercising more.)


I posted links to studies done on this.

They had men in different age groups and situations. For example, some men were in their 40's, married, single and dating. IN every case, men in long term relationships had lower T levels than the same aged single men. Single men and men who were 'dating' had higher levels of T. The research seemed to find that the lower T in men in committed relationships did not lower their desire for sex. They say it seems to have to do with men who are no competing with other men for a woman have lover T and are less aggressive because of it.


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## EllisRedding

EleGirl said:


> They say it seems to have to do with men who are no competing with other men for a woman have lover T and are less aggressive because of it.


This is why Fight Club was started :grin2:


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## Phoenix 1962

EllisRedding said:


> If a woman is in a sexless relationship, not by her choice, it is serious (regardless of whether it is more common with one gender vs. the other). I think the general perception is that more men deal with this, which I think makes this thread more valuable as an outlet for women to discuss. I know several female posters have been very forthcoming about the issues they have (and possible are still) dealing with.


I know It is serious. I was incapacitated because of a health issue for six months. After I was finally able to perform again we talked about it and how difficult it was for her. She has always had a very strong sex drive. She half jokingly told me she had considered getting an escort for sex while I was incapacitated. I told her I understood as it was hell on me as well. I wasn't angry at all when she said it. I know how hard it was for me and I can imagine what it was like for her.


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## EleGirl

bump


----------



## fightforher

Are their women that have "hidden" their sex starved condition from their partner? That is, they are too afraid to initiate again, or look needy or just assume that a few hints is all it should take?


----------



## FeministInPink

fightforher said:


> Are their women that have "hidden" their sex starved condition from their partner? That is, they are too afraid to initiate again, or look needy or just assume that a few hints is all it should take?


I didn't hide it, but when I tried to talk about this with my XH, the rejection continued. He said we would improve, but he never did anything about it. He said that all I wanted was sex, and didn't I value him for other things? And when I tried to initiate, he constantly rejected me.

So I stopped asking, and I stopped initiating. Because withdrawing was far less painful than the constant rejection.

I think my experience is pretty common.


----------



## fightforher

FeministInPink said:


> I didn't hide it, but when I tried to talk about this with my XH, the rejection continued. He said we would improve, but he never did anything about it. *He said that all I wanted was sex, and didn't I value him for other things?* And when I tried to initiate, he constantly rejected me.
> 
> So I stopped asking, and I stopped initiating. Because withdrawing was far less painful than the constant rejection.
> 
> I think my experience is pretty common.


This is so sad. I would imagine that the pain would be compounded by society's stereotype about men wanting it all the time. Must have made you feel awful.

You did not hide it, it was out in the open. You are strong to take the risk and be open about it with your XH.


----------



## KaraBoo0723

FeministInPink said:


> I didn't hide it, but when I tried to talk about this with my XH, the rejection continued. He said we would improve, but he never did anything about it. He said that all I wanted was sex, and didn't I value him for other things? And when I tried to initiate, he constantly rejected me.
> 
> 
> 
> So I stopped asking, and I stopped initiating. Because withdrawing was far less painful than the constant rejection.
> 
> 
> 
> I think my experience is pretty common.




FIP I could have written that post word for word. Reactions to initiating as well as consistent flat out rejection for the majority of our relationship (frequency has varied from 2/week to nearly 13 consecutive months without intercourse) have left me feeling as if I am abnormal, flawed, broken. He says I can ask anytime for him to get me off but so many times I have been told “I wish you would have brought this up a couple hours ago, I’m worn out/tired and need to get to sleep” or “We just had sex/I just got you off a few days ago” as if my high sex drive is completely unreasonable. He doesn’t understand that it is so incredibly difficult for me to ask at all anymore so I just wait and hope that maybe he’ll offer. When I do speak up it is only because I cannot go any longer — I just can’t win.


----------



## fightforher

KaraBoo0723 said:


> FIP I could have written that post word for word. Reactions to initiating as well as consistent flat out rejection for the majority of our relationship (frequency has varied from 2/week to nearly 13 consecutive months without intercourse) have left me feeling as if I am abnormal, flawed, broken. He says *I can ask anytime* for him to get me off but so many times I have been told “*I wish you would have brought this up a couple hours ago, I’m worn out/tired and need to get to sleep*” or “We just had sex/I just got you off a few days ago” as if my high sex drive is completely unreasonable. He doesn’t understand that it is so incredibly difficult for me to ask at all anymore so I just wait and hope that maybe he’ll offer. When I do speak up it is only because I cannot go any longer — I just can’t win.


I wish you would have told me the sink is clogged a couple of hours ago ... 

So sad. And since when is the object to "get you off?" This makes it like duty sex. Or "chore sex."

I feel sorry for you. I can see how this would make you feel abnormal .. and would be far from what you expected a relationship to feel like.

You did not hide it, but you certainly did not get understanding when you said something.


----------



## KaraBoo0723

fightforher said:


> I wish you would have told me the sink is clogged a couple of hours ago ...
> 
> So sad. And since when is the object to "get you off?" This makes it like duty sex. Or "chore sex."
> 
> I feel sorry for you. I can see how this would make you feel abnormal .. and would be far from what you expected a relationship to feel like.
> 
> You did not hide it, but you certainly did not get understanding when you said something.




In my first marriage, there was also a significant drive mismatch but it took me 7 years, 3 suicide attempts and a stay in an inpatient mental health facility to realize that it was not an issue with me but instead a symptom of his multiple affairs. He preferred to masturbate with porn even though I was ready willing and available at all times — I had given him a standing offer that even if he, for whatever reason, did not want sex that I would gladly give a BJ and then take care of myself. My greatest sexual pleasure was (and still is) to watch my partner respond to my actions and know that *I* was the cause of it. Lots of manipulation, gaslighting, brutal verbal/emotional abuse, turning everything around so I was the one apologizing — oh, and my XH is also a documented pathological/compulsive liar. 

So yes, I brought quite a bit of sexual dysfunction baggage into my current marriage but I have always been very vocal and transparent about my high drive and the scars left by my XH. 

The standard response to pushing the issue is “Ok I can get you off if you want.” Subtlety is lost on my H — or at least that’s how he portrays it. Kisses on the neck, nibbling the ear, spontaneous passionate open mouthed kiss — apparently none of these actions are cues regardless of how many times I’ve explained that those are my customary initiating behaviors, and on the off chance he does pick up on it (usually after I stroke his crotch lightly) my efforts are met with “Oh Lord, you’re amped up again already?” He says this with a light tone, even amused, but it stabs me deeper every time. In the past, when no response was forthcoming I used to be a little more aggressive once we were in bed for the night, but after literally years of: Huge sigh, exasperated tone, “Do you want me to just get you off?” When I explain that duty sex is not as satisfying either physically or mentally and that my need for sex usually increases afterward he says that he cannot win — even when he gets me off so he can avoid my hurt and frustration (because he really needs his sleep and doesn’t want to argue), when he has sex with me in an effort to shut me up — I’m still not happy so why should he even try. 

He says he has never known any woman with this high of a drive and that sex is just not something he thinks about often — he has also stated that apparently everything with me revolves around sex and that I use that aspect of our relationship to measure every facet in our marriage. I just can’t handle any more excruciating rejections — especially when I have tried every way I know to find a workable solution — so whether I want to or not I’m shutting down emotionally as a defense mechanism. 

If I’m being completely honest, if there was a way to completely shut down any and all sexual desire I would take it in a heartbeat. I mean, really, if this is an issue in both my first and my current marriage then the common denominator is me — maybe I really am just broken.


----------



## uhtred

You are not broken, he is. Or more accurately you are not compatible

There are people who would love to be with someone like you. 

I wish I had learned about compatibility when I was younger. 






KaraBoo0723 said:


> snip
> If I’m being completely honest, if there was a way to completely shut down any and all sexual desire I would take it in a heartbeat. I mean, really, if this is an issue in both my first and my current marriage then the common denominator is me — maybe I really am just broken.


----------



## FeministInPink

uhtred said:


> You are not broken, he is. Or more accurately you are not compatible
> 
> There are people who would love to be with someone like you.
> 
> I wish I had learned about compatibility when I was younger.


I agree, Kara. There is nothing wrong with you, even though he behavior and reaction to/treatment of you makes you feel broken.

That's HIS problem! That doesn't mean something is wrong with you. He's unwilling to meet your needs and doesn't care that he's hurting you, which means he is a bad partner for you.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## sokillme

KaraBoo0723 said:


> In my first marriage, there was also a significant drive mismatch but it took me 7 years, 3 suicide attempts and a stay in an inpatient mental health facility to realize that it was not an issue with me but instead a symptom of his multiple affairs. He preferred to masturbate with porn even though I was ready willing and available at all times — I had given him a standing offer that even if he, for whatever reason, did not want sex that I would gladly give a BJ and then take care of myself. My greatest sexual pleasure was (and still is) to watch my partner respond to my actions and know that *I* was the cause of it. Lots of manipulation, gaslighting, brutal verbal/emotional abuse, turning everything around so I was the one apologizing — oh, and my XH is also a documented pathological/compulsive liar.
> 
> So yes, I brought quite a bit of sexual dysfunction baggage into my current marriage but I have always been very vocal and transparent about my high drive and the scars left by my XH.
> 
> The standard response to pushing the issue is “Ok I can get you off if you want.” Subtlety is lost on my H — or at least that’s how he portrays it. Kisses on the neck, nibbling the ear, spontaneous passionate open mouthed kiss — apparently none of these actions are cues regardless of how many times I’ve explained that those are my customary initiating behaviors, and on the off chance he does pick up on it (usually after I stroke his crotch lightly) my efforts are met with “Oh Lord, you’re amped up again already?” He says this with a light tone, even amused, but it stabs me deeper every time. In the past, when no response was forthcoming I used to be a little more aggressive once we were in bed for the night, but after literally years of: Huge sigh, exasperated tone, “Do you want me to just get you off?” When I explain that duty sex is not as satisfying either physically or mentally and that my need for sex usually increases afterward he says that he cannot win — even when he gets me off so he can avoid my hurt and frustration (because he really needs his sleep and doesn’t want to argue), when he has sex with me in an effort to shut me up — I’m still not happy so why should he even try.
> 
> He says he has never known any woman with this high of a drive and that sex is just not something he thinks about often — he has also stated that apparently everything with me revolves around sex and that I use that aspect of our relationship to measure every facet in our marriage. I just can’t handle any more excruciating rejections — especially when I have tried every way I know to find a workable solution — so whether I want to or not I’m shutting down emotionally as a defense mechanism.
> 
> If I’m being completely honest, if there was a way to completely shut down any and all sexual desire I would take it in a heartbeat. I mean, really, if this is an issue in both my first and my current marriage then the common denominator is me — maybe I really am just broken.


Damn this makes me sad. Sometimes the world seems like a cosmic joke being played on all of us. There are SO MANY men even on here who would kill for a wife like this. And you happened to meet two duds. Was there something about them that you think attracted you to them? Was there any sign of this before? :frown2:


----------



## Handy

KaraBoo0723, I know a lot of men and women can relate to your sex starved relationship. Many men hear the same things your H has told you. I can imagine with the common belief that ALL men want sex and your H doesn't might cause you to think "what is wrong with me" well please don't think that way. The issue is not you but a sexual miss-match. Some people are higher drive and some people are naturally low drive.

Like some other posters have said, you would be a delight to be married to compared to some of the current posters primary partner.

The trick is to be with someone that matches your overall interests.


----------



## fightforher

Kara,

You are not broken. On the contrary, I would regard you as highly functional.

So sorry you are married to somebody that does not wish to you happy. Or seem to even know how, referring to the "I can get you off if you want." 

You just want somebody that can share a sexual experience with together, and enjoy it together. Ain't nothing wrong with that!


----------



## KaraBoo0723

Thank you, @FeministInPink, @uhtred, @sokillme, @fightforher and @Handy, your support and kind words are appreciated more than you know. 

I have not replied to the questions yet but I will when I’m able. If I’m really honest, just thinking of replying with details of my current situation leaves me in tears and trembling (even just typing this has tears rolling down my face). I have faults in this relationship too and early on my behavior regarding frequency of sex was emotionally/verbally abusive. I really did a lot of self-sabotage in the first few years and the damage I inflicted set the stage for my current situation. No infidelity on my part, ever. My H? I’m certain there was at minimum an EA, possibly a PA, at some point in the last two years. Not knowing details of what went on at that time is tangled up in what I am just not able to share at the moment. 

Thank you again for your replies, they lift my heart this morning  

(Slightly o/t but I have read some of the articles you’ve written on your blog , FIP, and love your writing style and transparency  )


----------



## sokillme

KaraBoo0723 said:


> Thank you, @FeministInPink, @uhtred, @sokillme, @fightforher and @Handy, your support and kind words are appreciated more than you know.
> 
> I have not replied to the questions yet but I will when I’m able. If I’m really honest, just thinking of replying with details of my current situation leaves me in tears and trembling (even just typing this has tears rolling down my face). I have faults in this relationship too and early on my behavior regarding frequency of sex was emotionally/verbally abusive. I really did a lot of self-sabotage in the first few years and the damage I inflicted set the stage for my current situation. No infidelity on my part, ever. My *H? I’m certain there was at minimum an EA, possibly a PA, at some point in the last two years.* Not knowing details of what went on at that time is tangled up in what I am just not able to share at the moment.
> 
> Thank you again for your replies, they lift my heart this morning
> 
> (Slightly o/t but I have read some of the articles you’ve written on your blog , FIP, and love your writing style and transparency  )


:frown2:


----------



## JustTheWife

My husband has sex with me about once every 2 weeks which is not what i like but we just don't have a sexual marriage. He's very religious. I love him but with him i would not really want more sex with him. When we do it, its' not really "hot" for me and it's not really what i like or what i want in sex. Well that's just not a big part of our marriage. i've accepted that.


----------



## EleGirl

JustTheWife said:


> My husband has sex with me about once every 2 weeks which is not what i like but we just don't have a sexual marriage. He's very religious. I love him but with him i would not really want more sex with him. When we do it, its' not really "hot" for me and it's not really what i like or what i want in sex. Well that's just not a big part of our marriage. i've accepted that.


If you have accepted this, then so be it. This is something that each person who is faced with a LD spouse needs to make their own decision about.

I do find it sad when a person uses religion as an excuse/reason for avoiding sex. There is nothing in religion that supports this.


----------



## KaraBoo0723

EleGirl said:


> If you have accepted this, then so be it. This is something that each person who is faced with a LD spouse needs to make their own decision about.
> 
> 
> 
> I do find it sad when a person uses religion as an excuse/reason for avoiding sex. There is nothing in religion that supports this.




I agree. My dad and stepmom are devout Christians who give their all every day to walk with Christ and be His example and light to everyone their lives touch. They lead small group relationship studies every week as well as being the leaders of the Divorce Care staff at their church. This is a second marriage for them both and they celebrated their 31st wedding anniversary on 11/21. 

My stepmom is very active in their Mothers of Preschoolers program although she has no children of her own, has been in my life since the age of 7 though so she does have relatable experiences. One subject that is emphasized in the studies and MOPs is the importance of an active, enthusiastic and frequent sex life. My dad does a workshop for the husbands of MOPs and shares how in his first marriage (to my mom) he was a horrible and neglectful husband. He encourages these men to be vigilant in not letting their wives feel neglected in any aspect of the marriage and recommends spicing things up in the bedroom to re-establish an emotional and sexual bond during times of difficulty in their lives and to make their wives’ needs, both physical and emotional, a top priority at all times. 

That is the example of a Godly marriage I grew up with — I cannot fathom feeling that being religious equals a boring and uninspired sex life.


----------



## Handy

* Kara
My dad does a workshop for the husbands of MOPs and shares how in his first marriage (to my mom) he was a horrible and neglectful husband. He encourages these men to be vigilant in not letting their wives feel neglected in any aspect of the marriage and recommends spicing things up in the bedroom to re-establish an emotional and sexual bond during times of difficulty in their lives and to make their wives’ needs, both physical and emotional, a top priority at all times. *

I am so happy to hear that message because it is what is needed. When I was much younges the topic of sex at church was mostly negative. The message was work, work, work, and then give to God.


----------



## JustTheWife

EleGirl said:


> If you have accepted this, then so be it. This is something that each person who is faced with a LD spouse needs to make their own decision about.
> 
> I do find it sad when a person uses religion as an excuse/reason for avoiding sex. There is nothing in religion that supports this.


Whether you agree or disagree with the beliefs, people have their own personal religious views. My husband does not believe that sex is for 'recreation'. You can disagree with this but that's "his" religion so what other people think religion supports or doesn't support doesn't really matter. anyway, you can't really talk about religion like it's a single thing.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

JustTheWife said:


> Whether you agree or disagree with the beliefs, people have their own personal religious views. My husband does not believe that sex is for 'recreation'. You can disagree with this but that's "his" religion so what other people think religion supports or doesn't support doesn't really matter. anyway, you can't really talk about religion like it's a single thing.


I have to disagree to some degree. If you're claiming religion as a reason for your actions, there must be something that is inherent in that religion that supports that. If "his" religion is somehow different from the codified tenets of the religion, he can not claim that religion either as "his" or as a reason for his actions. 

Are the two of you actively trying to conceive? If not, then according to "his" religion (no recreational sex), you shouldn't be having any sex at all. Ever. 

The cornerstone of any religion is that particular religion's holy scriptures. Of course,for any such writings, different people will interpret them different ways, so there is room for disagreement within a religion, but some things are clearly beyond the scope of the scriptures. Minimizing sex within a Godly marriage is one of them. In fact, if anything, the scriptures indicate the opposite: that it is hugely important and that both members of the marriage are not only encouraged, but duty bound, to look after each other's sexual needs.


----------



## JustTheWife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I have to disagree to some degree. If you're claiming religion as a reason for your actions, there must be something that is inherent in that religion that supports that. If "his" religion is somehow different from the codified tenets of the religion, he can not claim that religion either as "his" or as a reason for his actions.
> 
> Are the two of you actively trying to conceive? If not, then according to "his" religion (no recreational sex), you shouldn't be having any sex at all. Ever.
> 
> The cornerstone of any religion is that particular religion's holy scriptures. Of course,for any such writings, different people will interpret them different ways, so there is room for disagreement within a religion, but some things are clearly beyond the scope of the scriptures. Minimizing sex within a Godly marriage is one of them. In fact, if anything, the scriptures indicate the opposite: that it is hugely important and that both members of the marriage are not only encouraged, but duty bound, to look after each other's sexual needs.


I don't disagree with what you're saying but he does not believe in "sex for fun". Or sex for pleasure. He treats it like it's sacred. I know that he's not alone in this and that's what our church preaches. I still don't see the purpose in analyzing whether he should think this way or see if he can think another way and still be OK in some religion. I mean, the law allows you to do things but that doesn't mean everyone wants to do everything that's legal. if the speed limit is 55, it doesn't mean you can't drive slower if you want.

He also does not believe I should be taking care of his sexual needs or him taking care of mine. He beleives that we need to resist these temptations. He doesn't tihnk it's the role of husband and wives to take care of sexual needs and he feels strongly about this. 

Im' not saying that i agree with him but just that that's what he thinks and trying to say that "religion" allows more sex or different sex is a waste of time. It's confusing for me because I've been raised to see sex like he sees it (sexual pleasure is sinful and temptation is to be resisted and sex is basically dirty). I love sex so kind of conflicted. Anyway, from what i read here, lots of people have marriages with mismatching views, feelings and interest in sex. Something that many people have to deal with.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

JustTheWife said:


> I don't disagree with what you're saying but he does not believe in "sex for fun". Or sex for pleasure. He treats it like it's sacred. I know that he's not alone in this and that's what our church preaches. I still don't see the purpose in analyzing whether he should think this way or see if he can think another way and still be OK in some religion. I mean, the law allows you to do things but that doesn't mean everyone wants to do everything that's legal. if the speed limit is 55, it doesn't mean you can't drive slower if you want.
> 
> He also does not believe I should be taking care of his sexual needs or him taking care of mine. He beleives that we need to resist these temptations. He doesn't tihnk it's the role of husband and wives to take care of sexual needs and he feels strongly about this.
> 
> Im' not saying that i agree with him but just that that's what he thinks and trying to say that "religion" allows more sex or different sex is a waste of time. It's confusing for me because I've been raised to see sex like he sees it (sexual pleasure is sinful and temptation is to be resisted and sex is basically dirty). I love sex so kind of conflicted. Anyway, from what i read here, lots of people have marriages with mismatching views, feelings and interest in sex. Something that many people have to deal with.


I apologize up front for the argumentative nature of this post. I'm not sure how to say this more softly. 


Well, that's the first problem right there. There's no discrepancy between sacred sex and pleasurable sex. In fact, we should take genuine joy in that which is sacred. Saying that because sex is sacred, we shouldn't enjoy it, requires a rather heinous twisting of logic. 

Here's why I say it's important. It's important for all people, regardless of religious belief or affiliation to be honest... with themselves as well as with each other. I have no grounds to criticize whether or not one chooses to believe in a divine creator, but I most certainly will call out someone for claiming that belief and using that belief to justify actions that exceed the scope of that belief. If he wants to believe that any sex, even within marriage, is sinful, so be it. But don't let him bull**** your or delude himself into thinking there's some sort of divine reason for this. Unless he can quote you chapter and verse, he's got no leg to stand on here. He may have a reason for feeling this way, but it's not rooted in the scripture. Unless he's willing to do the self reflection to find the true root cause of that belief, and share it with you, both his belief and your marriage, are a sham.

The holy scriptures fully acknowledge these temptations as part of the human experience... and prescribes the proper resolution... MARRIAGE! In fact, the bible is quite clear that giving into these temptations *with your spouse is essential to save your spouse from these temptations outside of marriage*. 
“Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” (1 Cor 7:5)
When you withhold other than by mutual consent, you disrespect your spouse, you disrespect your marriage, and most importantly to the truly pious, you disrespect the word of God.


----------



## JustTheWife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I apologize up front for the argumentative nature of this post. I'm not sure how to say this more softly.
> 
> 
> Well, that's the first problem fight there. There's no discrepancy between sacred sex and pleasurable sex. In fact, we should take genuine joy in that which is sacred. Saying that because sex is sacred, we shouldn't enjoy it, requires a rather heinous twisting of logic.
> 
> Here's why I say it's important. It's important for all people, regardless of religious belief or affiliation to be honest... with themselves as well as with each other. I have no grounds to criticize whether or not one chooses to believe in a divine creator, but I most certainly will call out someone for claiming that belief and using that belief to justify actions that exceed the scope of that belief. If he wants to believe that any sex, even within marriage, is sinful, so be it. But don't let him bull**** your or delude himself into thinking there's some sort of divine reason for this. Unless he can quote you chapter and verse, he's got no leg to stand on here. He may have a reason for feeling this way, but it's not rooted in the scripture. Unless he's willing to do the self reflection to find the true root cause of that belief, and share it with you, both his belief and your marriage, are a sham.
> 
> The holy scriptures fully acknowledge these temptations as part of the human experience... and prescribes the proper resolution... MARRIAGE! In fact, the bible is quite clear that giving into these temptations *with your spouse is essential to save your spouse from these temptations outside of marriage*.
> “Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” (1 Cor 7:5)
> When you withhold other than by mutual consent, you disrespect your spouse, you disrespect your marriage, and most importantly to the truly pious, you disrespect the word of God.


I don't agree with his view on this and I wish he didn't feel this way. But he was open about this from the start. Your comment about my marriage being a sham is very unhelpful and rude.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

JustTheWife said:


> I don't agree with his view on this and I wish he didn't feel this way. But he was open about this from the start. Your comment about my marriage being a sham is very unhelpful and rude.


Okay, so you went into this with eyes wide open. If it is what you agreed for it to be, and everything was out in the open, above board, and mutually accepted, so be it. I retract that final statement about the marriage being a sham and apologize for my overstatement. 

But then I'm not sure why you would complain about being exactly where you expected to be. 

And I still stand by the idea that it is a sham to say your (his) belief is based on his religion when the scriptures that define that religion make no such statement--indeed they say quite the opposite. To try to maintain those two positions simultaneously is, at best, illogical and, at worst, delusional. But as you say, you knew this going in, so you'd already decided this was acceptable.


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## toblerone

JustTheWife said:


> I don't agree with his view on this and I wish he didn't feel this way. But he was open about this from the start. Your comment about my marriage being a sham is very unhelpful and rude.


ok try concentrating on this part of the sentence, which is vastly more important:



> Unless he's willing to do the self reflection to find the true root cause of that belief, and share it with you, both his belief and your marriage,


----------



## toblerone

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Okay, so you went into this with eyes wide open. If it is what you agreed for it to be, and everything was out in the open, above board, and mutually accepted, so be it.


Maybe I didn't read her posts as clearly as I thought I did but I got the impression that by saying 'he was open from the start' meant less than from the start of the marriage, and more about the start of a lack of sex life after having a child.

edit: I scrolled back and I didn't even see her mention anything about kids in her last couple of posts so I guess I am just confusing it with other ****.


----------



## JustTheWife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Okay, so you went into this with eyes wide open. If it is what you agreed for it to be, and everything was out in the open, above board, and mutually accepted, so be it. I retract that final statement about the marriage being a sham and apologize for my overstatement.
> 
> But then I'm not sure why you would complain about being exactly where you expected to be.
> 
> And I still stand by the idea that it is a sham to say your (his) belief is based on his religion when the scriptures that define that religion make no such statement--indeed they say quite the opposite. To try to maintain those two positions simultaneously is, at best, illogical and, at worst, delusional. But as you say, you knew this going in, so you'd already decided this was acceptable.


Well I guess I don't see that I'm "complaining". I've come here to discuss this. Maybe everyone here with an issue is just a complainer. Anyway, you learn about marriage and relateionships as you go. You could call me stupid for getting married when he was pretty open about this but it's not like we talked about every single thing and made rules or whatever. He was just open about his beliefs and like i said, i was brought up exactly the same way. People are complex and can think differently about things at different times. I know that I do. I would bet that many people here with a marriage issue can be accused of "well you should have known this before you got married".


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## JoleenaL

Hello, im newly married and new here, i couldnr figure out how to create my own thread. (me and my husband just had our 1 year anniversary this last weekend) i am so bored wth our sex life. He is an amazing husband but we have our issues. 2 months into our marriage i asked for him to go down on me because its something that i love and it makes me feel accepted and loved. He shut down immediately and said no. He tried for 1 second and them said he wanted to gag and it feels wrong and vaginas are weird and that he needed time. So i dropped it. 8 months later i asked him again and he straight up said no. I started crying and felt super rejected since i go down on him all the time and love to. I explained to him that i feel insecure about myself because of all the comments he makes about my vagina and he wont go down on me or meet my needs sexually. He made up an excuse saying its morally wrong and he doesnt like bjs. Bs. I brought it up 2 weeks later because i knew he was lying. He admitted it and said he is intimidated because he has never done it before and needs to take it slow. Its been 2 months and i had him google it. He still hasnt done it. We always do missionary style. Im bored our of my mind and he sucks at fore play and comes like 2 seconds. I just want to stop having sex with him because im so bored and feel so unloved in this area. I feel like a cum bucket for him. I have acrazy high sex drive but not anymore since im so unhappy with our sex life and he wont meet my needs. Get this, hes a MARRIAGE FAMILY THERAPIST HIMSELF and ive had to teach him So many things.. idk what to do


----------



## uhtred

This has been moved to another thread so people can comment directly on your situation. 

You have my sympathy - this is a huge problem. 




JoleenaL said:


> Hello, im newly married and new here, i couldnr figure out how to create my own thread. (me and my husband just had our 1 year anniversary this last weekend) i am so bored wth our sex life. He is an amazing husband but we have our issues. 2 months into our marriage i asked for him to go down on me because its something that i love and it makes me feel accepted and loved. He shut down immediately and said no. He tried for 1 second and them said he wanted to gag and it feels wrong and vaginas are weird and that he needed time. So i dropped it. 8 months later i asked him again and he straight up said no. I started crying and felt super rejected since i go down on him all the time and love to. I explained to him that i feel insecure about myself because of all the comments he makes about my vagina and he wont go down on me or meet my needs sexually. He made up an excuse saying its morally wrong and he doesnt like bjs. Bs. I brought it up 2 weeks later because i knew he was lying. He admitted it and said he is intimidated because he has never done it before and needs to take it slow. Its been 2 months and i had him google it. He still hasnt done it. We always do missionary style. Im bored our of my mind and he sucks at fore play and comes like 2 seconds. I just want to stop having sex with him because im so bored and feel so unloved in this area. I feel like a cum bucket for him. I have acrazy high sex drive but not anymore since im so unhappy with our sex life and he wont meet my needs. Get this, hes a MARRIAGE FAMILY THERAPIST HIMSELF and ive had to teach him So many things.. idk what to do


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## notmyrealname4

.


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## EleGirl

bump


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## Adelais

JustTheWife said:


> I don't disagree with what you're saying but he does not believe in "sex for fun". Or sex for pleasure. He treats it like it's sacred. I know that he's not alone in this and that's what our church preaches. I still don't see the purpose in analyzing whether he should think this way or see if he can think another way and still be OK in some religion. I mean, the law allows you to do things but that doesn't mean everyone wants to do everything that's legal. if the speed limit is 55, it doesn't mean you can't drive slower if you want.
> 
> He also does not believe I should be taking care of his sexual needs or him taking care of mine. He beleives that we need to resist these temptations. He doesn't tihnk it's the role of husband and wives to take care of sexual needs and he feels strongly about this.
> 
> Im' not saying that i agree with him but just that that's what he thinks and trying to say that "religion" allows more sex or different sex is a waste of time. It's confusing for me because I've been raised to see sex like he sees it (sexual pleasure is sinful and temptation is to be resisted and sex is basically dirty). I love sex so kind of conflicted. Anyway, from what i read here, lots of people have marriages with mismatching views, feelings and interest in sex. Something that many people have to deal with.


I am assuming your husband is a Christian. If he is not, then ignore my post.

Why does your husband believe that Paul wrote this to the believers in Jesus living in Corinth?

1 Corinthians 7:9 New International Version
"But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

Paul was saying that single people should control their passion, and if they couldn't then they should get married and have a good time not controlling it.


----------



## JustTheWife

Araucaria said:


> I am assuming your husband is a Christian. If he is not, then ignore my post.
> 
> Why does your husband believe that Paul wrote this to the believers in Jesus living in Corinth?
> 
> 1 Corinthians 7:9 New International Version
> "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
> 
> Paul was saying that single people should control their passion, and if they couldn't then they should get married and have a good time not controlling it.


He feels the way he does and that's the way he is. Quoting the bible isn't going to turn him into a sexual madman. I don't think telling him "it's ok by the bible" is going to make him more sexual or more adventurous.


----------



## ConanHub

JustTheWife said:


> He feels the way he does and that's the way he is. Quoting the bible isn't going to turn him into a sexual madman. I don't think telling him "it's ok by the bible" is going to make him more sexual or more adventurous.


How about separation papers? LOL!>

Well showing him he is defying God with his pathetic attitude should snap him out of it but, as you say, he doesn't really give a rip so he is apparently just writing his own weird script which you don't actually have to subscribe to.

Boggles my mind.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

ConanHub said:


> How about separation papers? LOL!>
> 
> Well showing him he is defying God with his pathetic attitude should snap him out of it but, as you say, he doesn't really give a rip so he is apparently just writing his own weird script which you don't actually have to subscribe to.
> 
> Boggles my mind.


Exactly. 

There's little reason to think that showing him that he can't legitimately or logically use his faith as an excuse to not perform will change his attitude...
... but it will prove you don't buy his bull**** excuses.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

uhtred said:


> This has been moved to another thread so people can comment directly on your situation.
> 
> You have my sympathy - this is a huge problem.


What an idiot.


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## EleGirl

gowithuhtred said:


> What an idiot.


Who exactly are you calling an idiot? Please clarify.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

EleGirl said:


> Who exactly are you calling an idiot? Please clarify.


The H. 😊 just MHO.

Sorry for the time lag.


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## janet_pi

My husband and I have found that we have to address issues immediately or they start to build secret hideouts filled with resentment. Eventually, you are so turned around, you don't know which way is up. We've been there, but now we are flourishing.


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## EleGirl

Bump to the top.


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## ConanHub

I'm starting to change my view. I use to view intimacy and sex as a desire but not a need but the majority of humanity does actually need passion, intimacy and sex.

My mind has shifted. What the hell is a wife to do if her husband won't?


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## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> I'm starting to change my view. I use to view intimacy and sex as a desire but not a need but the majority of humanity does actually need passion, intimacy and sex.
> 
> My mind has shifted. What the hell is a wife to do if her husband won't?


I also think it's a need. When you look at human sexuality, it's different from most other animals. Most only copulate when the female is in heat. For human sex is what nurtures intimacy and passion. It binds a couple together. Has to do with things like dopamine and oxytocin that are produced.. keeping these high... well they keep a couple high on love...


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## AVR1962

I agree it is absolutely essential for each partner and for the survival of the marriage. If you are not having sex as a couple, or you have no desire for sex in the marriage, it needs to be addressed with a professional. After a 24 years marriage where I initiated sex the majority of time and husband showed no interest in me, I would lay awake at night and had all sorts of sex dreams....it was miserable. I am now in a relationship where the sex is the best I have ever had. He does initiate and I can initiate with him. He is experimental and creative, we can talk about our desires and what feels good for each of us. I call him my tiger and he plays right into it. Texts that go back and forth between us would make my children stop reading in a hurry! I am 57 and he is two years younger. This is the way it should be in my opinion.


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## Hiner112

There was a thread on the divorce reddit when I was in the middle of the process that was titled something like, "It is amazing how much sex we didn't have" that hit pretty close to home. It was written from the perspective of the (ex)husband but I think the perspective applies to each person in the relationship. I often thought of each night as a new opportunity (or one missed) while my ex thought of sex as a special occasion. There had to be a reason or justification. I'll never understand it because once one of the participants is sterilized (or if they are the same gender), the cost of having sex is $0 and it is remarkably cheap before that. You can spend as much or as little time with it as you want. It actually takes effort (or a total lack of effort and interest) to actually make the experience bad.

Having said all that, the last couple of years of my marriage I would only try to initiate something (and get rejected) a few times over the course of a week or two before giving up until I got some kind of indication from her that there was a change in her attitude. Rejection made me complicit in our near sexlessness.


----------



## AVR1962

Hiner112 said:


> There was a thread on the divorce reddit when I was in the middle of the process that was titled something like, "It is amazing how much sex we didn't have" that hit pretty close to home. It was written from the perspective of the (ex)husband but I think the perspective applies to each person in the relationship. I often thought of each night as a new opportunity (or one missed) while my ex thought of sex as a special occasion. There had to be a reason or justification. I'll never understand it because once one of the participants is sterilized (or if they are the same gender), the cost of having sex is $0 and it is remarkably cheap before that. You can spend as much or as little time with it as you want. It actually takes effort (or a total lack of effort and interest) to actually make the experience bad.
> 
> Having said all that, the last couple of years of my marriage I would only try to initiate something (and get rejected) a few times over the course of a week or two before giving up until I got some kind of indication from her that there was a change in her attitude. Rejection made me complicit in our near sexlessness.


When I have talked about my situation with other people the reply, whether man or woman, will say "If a man is continually rejected he will stop." This was not the situation for me, not even dating. I was the initiator. I asked him several times why he did not come to me. I heard "I have never been the initiator in any of my relationships" "I can't tell when you are interested." I asked him way early on while first dating if he was attracted to me as he did not voice anything, didn't show interest, he was not affectionate. He said he was but he was not good at expressing himself. As I continued to get to know him and his past relationships with women he seem to have a this overwhelming (unnatural) fear of rejection. he felt women did not like him for anything but a friend. There was also this love/hate thing going on also. he said that a woman's beauty was like power and he seemed to be resentful of that rather than appreciative of her beauty. He did not have a good relationship with his mom growing up, angry at her for what he saw as control from her over him. So with my ex there was issues. As much as we talked it never made a difference. We even had counseling on this subject but it did not make a difference either.


----------



## Hiner112

AVR1962 said:


> When I have talked about my situation with other people the reply, whether man or woman, will say "If a man is continually rejected he will stop." This was not the situation for me, not even dating. I was the initiator. I asked him several times why he did not come to me. I heard "I have never been the initiator in any of my relationships" "I can't tell when you are interested." I asked him way early on while first dating if he was attracted to me as he did not voice anything, didn't show interest, he was not affectionate. He said he was but he was not good at expressing himself. As I continued to get to know him and his past relationships with women he seem to have a this overwhelming (unnatural) fear of rejection. he felt women did not like him for anything but a friend. There was also this love/hate thing going on also. he said that a woman's beauty was like power and he seemed to be resentful of that rather than appreciative of her beauty. He did not have a good relationship with his mom growing up, angry at her for what he saw as control from her over him. So with my ex there was issues. As much as we talked it never made a difference. We even had counseling on this subject but it did not make a difference either.


I'm not sure what the effects of my marriage will be on my future relationships. Will years of rejection make me tentative and passive? Will it be like a dam breaking? How much of that is attributable to my relationship and how much of that is attributable to my reaction to it?

I do think the earlier in your life you have those kinds of formative experiences, like your ex's relationship with his mother, the harder it is to rationalize and overcome them. If you didn't have the tools to understand what was happening at the time, it is unlikely it was rationally stored away in your head. You can't understand the effects because at the time you didn't understand the experience and it is all feelings without thought or reason.


----------



## AVR1962

Hiner112, I totally agree with what you said here. I think there is so much we do not understand about ourselves and then we "think" our actions are "normal" and someone else is to blame. There is reason for all things and as younger people we don't always understand this. My ex ended up with some real addiction issues and passive-aggressive behavior that I don't think he will ever be able to shake. I just saw the marriage as a complete loss and I had the choice to stay and be miserable for the sake of keeping my family together or move on and risk losing my children to find happiness. It was not easy and it took me along to process.

As far as rejection, I have found in dating now that new partners have been a relief as I don't see the behaviors I saw before in my marriage. It is nice to not have to dance the dance I did for years and I hope you will find the same thing. Rejection is not easy, trust me I get it but I hope you and whoever it is that comes into your life can talk more openly than perhaps you were able to with your ex.


----------



## Lolati11

EleGirl said:


> I would like this thread to be a resource for women who are in sexless, or near sexless marriages in which it is their husbands who don’t want sex. I’m hoping that women dealing with this issue will post and talk about what they are going through.
> 
> About 20% of marriages are sexless. A sexless marriage is defined as one in which the couple has sex 10 or fewer times a year.
> 
> We hear a lot about women withholding sex and thus making a marriage sexless, or near sexless. There is a lot of empathy/sympathy out there for men stuck in such a marriage.
> 
> What we don’t hear of much is that about half of the sexless marriages are due to the husband choosing to make the marriage sexless. We are fed the falsehood that all men want sex all the time. Well that’s just not so. Some men do not want sex all the time.
> 
> Women who are in sexless marriages due to their husband’s choice to make the marriage sexless often feel that they have nowhere to turn, no one to talk to. They are rightly concerned that they will be blamed. It’s all their fault. When a woman thinks that all men want sex all the time, in her mind she becomes the only married woman who is so undesirable that her husband will not touch her.
> 
> Women are only now starting to be open about this. Marriage counselors are finally starting to talk about how common the problem is.
> 
> If you are a woman in a sexless marriage because it’s your husband’s choice to make it sexless, you are far from alone. Many of us women out here have had the same issue. We are, or were, married to a man like your husband.
> 
> TAM is a good place to come for moral support and some good advice. But there is no way that we here on TAM can give you all the input and help you need to resolve this issue. There are some books that I think would go a long way to help you understand what is going on in your marriage and figure out ways to fix it if at all possible. Here are some good books that have helped a lot of women.
> 
> Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It
> 
> Intimacy Anorexia: Healing the Hidden Addiction in Your Marriage
> 
> Sex-Starved Wives
> 
> *The Sex-Starved Wife: What to Do When He's Lost Desire*  by Michele Weiner Davis
> 
> Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence
> 
> In some sexless marriages, the issue is denying sex to control their spouse. Here are some links if you think you might be experiencing this
> 
> Narcissists, Sex and Fidelity - The Somatic Narcissist, The Asexual Cerebral Narcissist, Extramarital Affairs, and Paraphilias
> 
> Sexual Attitudes of a Narcissist: Sex and the Narcissist - The Narcissistic Life
> 
> The Sex Starved Wife
> =========================================
> =========================================
> =========================================
> 
> Below is some info from the book "Why Men Stop Having Sex".
> 
> WHAT STOPS THE PASSION? Why do men stop having sex with their wives? The reason is seldom simple and may have a physiological, psychological, or cultural foundation; recent studies add a genetic component. Often these elements combine. We looked at the statistical reasons our male survey respondents, who self-identified as choosing not to have sex with their spouses, gave us for no longer being intimate, and we studied their comments carefully. Let’s first take a look at some statistics. We asked men to rate a list of reasons on a scale that went from strongly agree to strongly disagree. The following table lists in descending order the percentage of men who agreed with each of the causes.
> 
> 
> *%% WHY MEN SAID THEY STOPPED*
> 
> 68%……She isn’t sexually adventurous enough for me.
> (This lack of newness, energy, and emotion translates for many men into a lack of adventure and sexual enjoyment on the part of their partners, transferring the problem and ignoring the fact that they [the men] are not bringing any originality to bed, either.)​
> 61%……She doesn’t seem to enjoy sex.
> 48%……I am interested in sex with others, but not with my wife.
> 44%……I am angry at her.
> 41%……I’m bored.
> 40%……She is depressed.
> 38%……She has gained a significant amount of weight.
> 34%……I am depressed.
> 32%……I no longer find her physically attractive.
> 30%……I suffer from erectile dysfunction.
> 28%……I lost interest and I don’t know why.
> 25%……I prefer to masturbate, but not online.
> 25%……I prefer to watch pornography online and masturbate.
> 21%……I am on medication that lowered my libido.
> 20%……I am/was having an affair.
> 16%……I suffer from premature ejaculation.
> 15%……I have difficulty achieving orgasm.
> 14%……I am too tired.
> 09%……She is/was having an affair.
> 06%……I don’t have the time.
> 03%……I wasn’t interested in sex to begin with.
> <1%……I am gay.
> 
> Although the men know (or at least think they know) the reasons for their voluntary celibacy but the women are only guessing, either way the situation is embarrassing and painful. * It is therefore not surprising that both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves.* Indeed, men indicate a lack of sexual adventure (hers, not his) as primary. It is difficult to believe that this lack of erotic excitement is completely one-sided, and that these men who identify their wives as unadventurous are themselves imaginatively passionate guys, just somehow mysteriously unable to inspire the one woman they chose to marry. Both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves. After all, they probably knew her acceptable level of tolerance for erotic exploration before the vows were exchanged. We suspect that boredom or other factors is closer to the truth, or they are confusing the pornography they see on DVDs or the Internet with reality.
> 
> Berkowitz, Bob; Yager-Berkowitz, Susan. He's Just Not Up for It Anymore: Why Men Stop Having Sex, and What You Can Do About It (pp. 13-15). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
> 
> ==============================================
> Another thing that is becoming more and more of an issue is men who prefer to use porn to masturbate to instead of having sex with their wife (or significant other).
> 
> I've had discussions with women who say that their husband seldom has sex with them. Instead he uses port many times more in a month than he will have sex with her...if he will have sex with her at all. But she will make a strong point that her husband does not have a porn addition. I'm not sure if it matters one iota if we call it an addiction or not. He prefers to have sex with porn than with her. There is a reason and it needs to be addressed if the couple is ever going to have sex life. So label it addiction, or don't label it. It's all the same thing.
> 
> There are ways for men who use porn to the extent that it is hurting their marital sex life. There is a way to get the desire for their desire for their wife back.
> 
> This has become so common that there is now a lot of information about it available. If you search on "cure porn addiction", many sites will come up that talk about how to fix this.
> 
> Here is a site with a lot of info on this topic: *Your Brain on Porn*
> 
> 
> 
> .


Is it sad that I cannot remember the last time we had sex? He blames it on his age 56! I am going to be 40 this summer ☀ . I blame it on his depression I don't think he realizes he is depressed but well I need to figure it out. The last 3 weeks he blames it on his back that's been hurting. How do you all cope with a sexless marriage?


----------



## mitzi

EleGirl said:


> I would like this thread to be a resource for women who are in sexless, or near sexless marriages in which it is their husbands who don’t want sex. I’m hoping that women dealing with this issue will post and talk about what they are going through.
> 
> About 20% of marriages are sexless. A sexless marriage is defined as one in which the couple has sex 10 or fewer times a year.
> 
> We hear a lot about women withholding sex and thus making a marriage sexless, or near sexless. There is a lot of empathy/sympathy out there for men stuck in such a marriage.
> 
> What we don’t hear of much is that about half of the sexless marriages are due to the husband choosing to make the marriage sexless. We are fed the falsehood that all men want sex all the time. Well that’s just not so. Some men do not want sex all the time.
> 
> Women who are in sexless marriages due to their husband’s choice to make the marriage sexless often feel that they have nowhere to turn, no one to talk to. They are rightly concerned that they will be blamed. It’s all their fault. When a woman thinks that all men want sex all the time, in her mind she becomes the only married woman who is so undesirable that her husband will not touch her.
> 
> Women are only now starting to be open about this. Marriage counselors are finally starting to talk about how common the problem is.
> 
> If you are a woman in a sexless marriage because it’s your husband’s choice to make it sexless, you are far from alone. Many of us women out here have had the same issue. We are, or were, married to a man like your husband.
> 
> TAM is a good place to come for moral support and some good advice. But there is no way that we here on TAM can give you all the input and help you need to resolve this issue. There are some books that I think would go a long way to help you understand what is going on in your marriage and figure out ways to fix it if at all possible. Here are some good books that have helped a lot of women.
> 
> Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It
> 
> Intimacy Anorexia: Healing the Hidden Addiction in Your Marriage
> 
> Sex-Starved Wives
> 
> *The Sex-Starved Wife: What to Do When He's Lost Desire*  by Michele Weiner Davis
> 
> Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence
> 
> In some sexless marriages, the issue is denying sex to control their spouse. Here are some links if you think you might be experiencing this
> 
> Narcissists, Sex and Fidelity - The Somatic Narcissist, The Asexual Cerebral Narcissist, Extramarital Affairs, and Paraphilias
> 
> Sexual Attitudes of a Narcissist: Sex and the Narcissist - The Narcissistic Life
> 
> The Sex Starved Wife
> =========================================
> =========================================
> =========================================
> 
> Below is some info from the book "Why Men Stop Having Sex".
> 
> WHAT STOPS THE PASSION? Why do men stop having sex with their wives? The reason is seldom simple and may have a physiological, psychological, or cultural foundation; recent studies add a genetic component. Often these elements combine. We looked at the statistical reasons our male survey respondents, who self-identified as choosing not to have sex with their spouses, gave us for no longer being intimate, and we studied their comments carefully. Let’s first take a look at some statistics. We asked men to rate a list of reasons on a scale that went from strongly agree to strongly disagree. The following table lists in descending order the percentage of men who agreed with each of the causes.
> 
> 
> *%% WHY MEN SAID THEY STOPPED*
> 
> 68%……She isn’t sexually adventurous enough for me.
> (This lack of newness, energy, and emotion translates for many men into a lack of adventure and sexual enjoyment on the part of their partners, transferring the problem and ignoring the fact that they [the men] are not bringing any originality to bed, either.)​
> 61%……She doesn’t seem to enjoy sex.
> 48%……I am interested in sex with others, but not with my wife.
> 44%……I am angry at her.
> 41%……I’m bored.
> 40%……She is depressed.
> 38%……She has gained a significant amount of weight.
> 34%……I am depressed.
> 32%……I no longer find her physically attractive.
> 30%……I suffer from erectile dysfunction.
> 28%……I lost interest and I don’t know why.
> 25%……I prefer to masturbate, but not online.
> 25%……I prefer to watch pornography online and masturbate.
> 21%……I am on medication that lowered my libido.
> 20%……I am/was having an affair.
> 16%……I suffer from premature ejaculation.
> 15%……I have difficulty achieving orgasm.
> 14%……I am too tired.
> 09%……She is/was having an affair.
> 06%……I don’t have the time.
> 03%……I wasn’t interested in sex to begin with.
> <1%……I am gay.
> 
> Although the men know (or at least think they know) the reasons for their voluntary celibacy but the women are only guessing, either way the situation is embarrassing and painful. * It is therefore not surprising that both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves.* Indeed, men indicate a lack of sexual adventure (hers, not his) as primary. It is difficult to believe that this lack of erotic excitement is completely one-sided, and that these men who identify their wives as unadventurous are themselves imaginatively passionate guys, just somehow mysteriously unable to inspire the one woman they chose to marry. Both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves. After all, they probably knew her acceptable level of tolerance for erotic exploration before the vows were exchanged. We suspect that boredom or other factors is closer to the truth, or they are confusing the pornography they see on DVDs or the Internet with reality.
> 
> Berkowitz, Bob; Yager-Berkowitz, Susan. He's Just Not Up for It Anymore: Why Men Stop Having Sex, and What You Can Do About It (pp. 13-15). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
> 
> ==============================================
> Another thing that is becoming more and more of an issue is men who prefer to use porn to masturbate to instead of having sex with their wife (or significant other).
> 
> I've had discussions with women who say that their husband seldom has sex with them. Instead he uses port many times more in a month than he will have sex with her...if he will have sex with her at all. But she will make a strong point that her husband does not have a porn addition. I'm not sure if it matters one iota if we call it an addiction or not. He prefers to have sex with porn than with her. There is a reason and it needs to be addressed if the couple is ever going to have sex life. So label it addiction, or don't label it. It's all the same thing.
> 
> There are ways for men who use porn to the extent that it is hurting their marital sex life. There is a way to get the desire for their desire for their wife back.
> 
> This has become so common that there is now a lot of information about it available. If you search on "cure porn addiction", many sites will come up that talk about how to fix this.
> 
> Here is a site with a lot of info on this topic: *Your Brain on Porn*


Thank you for this! In our twelve years of marriage its been sexless past 8. I struggled with self consciousness, depression, cried every night after he fell asleep because I felt so alone. I still do but Ive pretty much gave up on it.


----------



## Taxman

Sex is a constellation of different factors in each individual, and each couple. In my business, I believe I have heard a significant number of complaints, that harken back significantly to the list of percentages in Ele-Girl's post. Some things do jump out at me. I have heard each of those items over the years, and some could have been avoided by simple communication. One gentleman had not touched his wife in several years, and was suffering from several other complaints. Kept it to himself, said he is "stoic". Stoic can kill you. Turned out there was a condition that was playing hell with his hormones. (I have to boast, I turned this guy over to my internist, who is absolutely aces, and he turned this guy around-it amazes me what people will tell their accountant) Then there is another client, she is sixtyish, (I dare anyone to guess-I had put her at 40 max, then I opened her tax return-can't lie about your age there, it's perjury), we are talking blue jeans that appeared to be painted on a very nice tush, emigrated ten years ago from Italy (my business partner is fluent...and loud). She ditched the hubby in Palermo who had not touched her for years, came to Canada, and met what my partner refers to as the "boy toy". Yeah, if I were a woman, yup. He checks every box, bears a slight resemblance to Henry Cavill, and my assistants find reasons to check out my library at reception when he is in. He is 30ish, and no gigolo. He is a consulting engineer, big bucks, and they have a nice condo on the waterfront. They seem happy.


----------



## EleGirl

Lolati11 said:


> Is it sad that I cannot remember the last time we had sex? He blames it on his age 56! I am going to be 40 this summer ☀ . I blame it on his depression I don't think he realizes he is depressed but well I need to figure it out. The last 3 weeks he blames it on his back that's been hurting. How do you all cope with a sexless marriage?


There could be an age component. As men age, their testosterone levels decrease. For some men that means they loose interest in sex. Maybe you could encourage him to get see his doctor and have his t-levels checked.

How do people cope with a sexless marriage? Some people just do. Others who have a healthy libido cannot cope and end up divorcing over it.

My take on it is that if your spouse will not seek the help they need to get back on track with a healthy sex life, they are basically choosing to make the marriage sexless. 

I've read that it's very often a passive aggressive way to punish their spouse. He can claim that he's not doing it on purpose because of is age, his health, his back, the day of the week... whatever. Since it's not his fault, he can act like you are the bad guy for complaining about something he's helpless over.


----------



## EleGirl

mitzi said:


> Thank you for this! In our twelve years of marriage its been sexless past 8. I struggled with self consciousness, depression, cried every night after he fell asleep because I felt so alone. I still do but Ive pretty much gave up on it.


At this point, you should probably turn your focus on yourself. What do you need so that you feel better about yourself?


----------



## Mary L

EleGirl said:


> I would like this thread to be a resource for women who are in sexless, or near sexless marriages in which it is their husbands who don’t want sex. I’m hoping that women dealing with this issue will post and talk about what they are going through.
> 
> About 20% of marriages are sexless. A sexless marriage is defined as one in which the couple has sex 10 or fewer times a year.
> 
> We hear a lot about women withholding sex and thus making a marriage sexless, or near sexless. There is a lot of empathy/sympathy out there for men stuck in such a marriage.
> 
> What we don’t hear of much is that about half of the sexless marriages are due to the husband choosing to make the marriage sexless. We are fed the falsehood that all men want sex all the time. Well that’s just not so. Some men do not want sex all the time.
> 
> Women who are in sexless marriages due to their husband’s choice to make the marriage sexless often feel that they have nowhere to turn, no one to talk to. They are rightly concerned that they will be blamed. It’s all their fault. When a woman thinks that all men want sex all the time, in her mind she becomes the only married woman who is so undesirable that her husband will not touch her.
> 
> Women are only now starting to be open about this. Marriage counselors are finally starting to talk about how common the problem is.
> 
> If you are a woman in a sexless marriage because it’s your husband’s choice to make it sexless, you are far from alone. Many of us women out here have had the same issue. We are, or were, married to a man like your husband.
> 
> TAM is a good place to come for moral support and some good advice. But there is no way that we here on TAM can give you all the input and help you need to resolve this issue. There are some books that I think would go a long way to help you understand what is going on in your marriage and figure out ways to fix it if at all possible. Here are some good books that have helped a lot of women.
> 
> Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It
> 
> Intimacy Anorexia: Healing the Hidden Addiction in Your Marriage
> 
> Sex-Starved Wives
> 
> *The Sex-Starved Wife: What to Do When He's Lost Desire*  by Michele Weiner Davis
> 
> Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence
> 
> In some sexless marriages, the issue is denying sex to control their spouse. Here are some links if you think you might be experiencing this
> 
> Narcissists, Sex and Fidelity - The Somatic Narcissist, The Asexual Cerebral Narcissist, Extramarital Affairs, and Paraphilias
> 
> Sexual Attitudes of a Narcissist: Sex and the Narcissist - The Narcissistic Life
> 
> The Sex Starved Wife
> =========================================
> =========================================
> =========================================
> 
> Below is some info from the book "Why Men Stop Having Sex".
> 
> WHAT STOPS THE PASSION? Why do men stop having sex with their wives? The reason is seldom simple and may have a physiological, psychological, or cultural foundation; recent studies add a genetic component. Often these elements combine. We looked at the statistical reasons our male survey respondents, who self-identified as choosing not to have sex with their spouses, gave us for no longer being intimate, and we studied their comments carefully. Let’s first take a look at some statistics. We asked men to rate a list of reasons on a scale that went from strongly agree to strongly disagree. The following table lists in descending order the percentage of men who agreed with each of the causes.
> 
> 
> *%% WHY MEN SAID THEY STOPPED*
> 
> 68%……She isn’t sexually adventurous enough for me.
> (This lack of newness, energy, and emotion translates for many men into a lack of adventure and sexual enjoyment on the part of their partners, transferring the problem and ignoring the fact that they [the men] are not bringing any originality to bed, either.)​
> 61%……She doesn’t seem to enjoy sex.
> 48%……I am interested in sex with others, but not with my wife.
> 44%……I am angry at her.
> 41%……I’m bored.
> 40%……She is depressed.
> 38%……She has gained a significant amount of weight.
> 34%……I am depressed.
> 32%……I no longer find her physically attractive.
> 30%……I suffer from erectile dysfunction.
> 28%……I lost interest and I don’t know why.
> 25%……I prefer to masturbate, but not online.
> 25%……I prefer to watch pornography online and masturbate.
> 21%……I am on medication that lowered my libido.
> 20%……I am/was having an affair.
> 16%……I suffer from premature ejaculation.
> 15%……I have difficulty achieving orgasm.
> 14%……I am too tired.
> 09%……She is/was having an affair.
> 06%……I don’t have the time.
> 03%……I wasn’t interested in sex to begin with.
> <1%……I am gay.
> 
> Although the men know (or at least think they know) the reasons for their voluntary celibacy but the women are only guessing, either way the situation is embarrassing and painful. * It is therefore not surprising that both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves.* Indeed, men indicate a lack of sexual adventure (hers, not his) as primary. It is difficult to believe that this lack of erotic excitement is completely one-sided, and that these men who identify their wives as unadventurous are themselves imaginatively passionate guys, just somehow mysteriously unable to inspire the one woman they chose to marry. Both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves. After all, they probably knew her acceptable level of tolerance for erotic exploration before the vows were exchanged. We suspect that boredom or other factors is closer to the truth, or they are confusing the pornography they see on DVDs or the Internet with reality.
> 
> Berkowitz, Bob; Yager-Berkowitz, Susan. He's Just Not Up for It Anymore: Why Men Stop Having Sex, and What You Can Do About It (pp. 13-15). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
> 
> ==============================================
> Another thing that is becoming more and more of an issue is men who prefer to use porn to masturbate to instead of having sex with their wife (or significant other).
> 
> I've had discussions with women who say that their husband seldom has sex with them. Instead he uses port many times more in a month than he will have sex with her...if he will have sex with her at all. But she will make a strong point that her husband does not have a porn addition. I'm not sure if it matters one iota if we call it an addiction or not. He prefers to have sex with porn than with her. There is a reason and it needs to be addressed if the couple is ever going to have sex life. So label it addiction, or don't label it. It's all the same thing.
> 
> There are ways for men who use porn to the extent that it is hurting their marital sex life. There is a way to get the desire for their desire for their wife back.
> 
> This has become so common that there is now a lot of information about it available. If you search on "cure porn addiction", many sites will come up that talk about how to fix this.
> 
> Here is a site with a lot of info on this topic: *Your Brain on Porn*
> 
> 
> 
> .


As far as I know, there isn't any porn to be concerned about. And I think I would know.
My husband just doesn't like to give the effort in the area of our bedroom. (and some other areas) If he's okay with how things are, then we are okay with how things are. Trying to discuss "my" hurts is just a frustration to him.
I have tried for 4 years now to get through to him. 4 years ago I just broke and couldn't take the loneliness anymore. 
I have sent him articles, tried to communicate, I have take sex off the page and said, "Hey! I love you. I enjoy you. Lets just play a couple times a week, no expectations other than we can be close" He agrees, but then, Nothing... no change. 
I am suppost to love myself. Be happy in my own skins and all of that. Well ladies and gentlemen, when your husband doesn't date you, flirt with you, tease you, stare at you across the room with a smile, pay attention to your laughs when watching a movie together, and doesn't want be intimate? Thats a bit impossible! At least where I am at emotionally.
Sorry, but its been a really bad week emotionally!


----------



## AVR1962

Mary L, just curious how long have you been married? Were always the one to physically show more in sex than your husband? Or was there a change at some point in the marriage?

Your last paragraph resonates with me. All of what you said and then to be in some of the prettiest country such as Switzerland (we traveled) and ex was on his cell phone playing games while sitting outdoors eating and enjoying the mountain view (me). Life with him was very lonely! I referred to it as living with a wall of bricks. My life was my career, my kids, my friends and my interests. The most I could get him to do was go for an occasional walk. I was getting nothing from the marriage except a roof over my head and I was plagued with sex dreams the entire marriage. 

In the very first few months we were married, we were both right at 30, I had initiated sex and he turned me down. I just felt it was out of bitterness. The next morning I asked him why he did that and he told me he wanted me to know how it felt. He was very passive-aggressive, held grudges, had a love/hate for women in general and I was to pay for all the wrong doing he felt other women had done to him. I walked away after 24 years, kids were gone and there was no way I was going to stay in that prison.


----------



## LisaDiane

Mary L said:


> As far as I know, there isn't any porn to be concerned about. And I think I would know.
> My husband just doesn't like to give the effort in the area of our bedroom. (and some other areas) If he's okay with how things are, then we are okay with how things are. Trying to discuss "my" hurts is just a frustration to him.
> I have tried for 4 years now to get through to him. 4 years ago I just broke and couldn't take the loneliness anymore.
> I have sent him articles, tried to communicate, I have take sex off the page and said, "Hey! I love you. I enjoy you. Lets just play a couple times a week, no expectations other than we can be close" He agrees, but then, Nothing... no change.
> I am suppost to love myself. Be happy in my own skins and all of that. Well ladies and gentlemen, when your husband doesn't date you, flirt with you, tease you, stare at you across the room with a smile, pay attention to your laughs when watching a movie together, and doesn't want be intimate? Thats a bit impossible! At least where I am at emotionally.
> Sorry, but its been a really bad week emotionally!


If he is so determinedly ignoring your sexual needs, HOW can you feel loved by him, and how can you keep staying with him...?? Are you willing to give up on sex to be with someone who can see you hurting and not care at all about it...?


----------



## Mary L

AVR1962 said:


> Mary L, just curious how long have you been married? Were always the one to physically show more in sex than your husband? Or was there a change at some point in the marriage?
> 
> Your last paragraph resonates with me. All of what you said and then to be in some of the prettiest country such as Switzerland (we traveled) and ex was on his cell phone playing games while sitting outdoors eating and enjoying the mountain view (me). Life with him was very lonely! I referred to it as living with a wall of bricks. My life was my career, my kids, my friends and my interests. The most I could get him to do was go for an occasional walk. I was getting nothing from the marriage except a roof over my head and I was plagued with sex dreams the entire marriage.
> 
> In the very first few months we were married, we were both right at 30, I had initiated sex and he turned me down. I just felt it was out of bitterness. The next morning I asked him why he did that and he told me he wanted me to know how it felt. He was very passive-aggressive, held grudges, had a love/hate for women in general and I was to pay for all the wrong doing he felt other women had done to him. I walked away after 24 years, kids were gone and there was no way I was going to stay in that prison.


We have been married for 30 years.
When we first met, sex wasn't huge. I


AVR1962 said:


> Mary L, just curious how long have you been married? Were always the one to physically show more in sex than your husband? Or was there a change at some point in the marriage?
> 
> Your last paragraph resonates with me. All of what you said and then to be in some of the prettiest country such as Switzerland (we traveled) and ex was on his cell phone playing games while sitting outdoors eating and enjoying the mountain view (me). Life with him was very lonely! I referred to it as living with a wall of bricks. My life was my career, my kids, my friends and my interests. The most I could get him to do was go for an occasional walk. I was getting nothing from the marriage except a roof over my head and I was plagued with sex dreams the entire marriage.
> 
> In the very first few months we were married, we were both right at 30, I had initiated sex and he turned me down. I just felt it was out of bitterness. The next morning I asked him why he did that and he told me he wanted me to know how it felt. He was very passive-aggressive, held grudges, had a love/hate for women in general and I was to pay for all the wrong doing he felt other women had done to him. I walked away after 24 years, kids were gone and there was no way I was going to stay in that prison.


We have been married 30 years.
In the beginning I was okay with a not so active sex life. I was sexually abused and it was okay not having such high demanding husband in the bedroom area. Hell, he's never been demanding anywhere!

We both initiated. We had sex about 2-3 times week, before kids, After kids it went down quickly. Sometimes it bothered me, other times I was just too busy to care. Earlier in our marriage, I was more concerned with the lack of romance, dating, foreplay, etc. than sex. Now I want all of it! lol
I came into this relationship with a lot of issues. I know I am partially to blame here. But as I grow, he seems to not. He seems to actually get worse. Bt maybe that is because I also am seeing life differently. 

He either works or pays attention to home life. Not both. Well, he has always worked, so...

We went on a 10 hr car trip last month. I drove. We barely talked, He was on FB or napping most of the trip. I finally turned music on and just tried to enjoy the road. If I would have said anything, he would have been frustrated because he wouldn't have understood. He thinks we have the BEST marriage. And we are best friends. We have a lot in common in many areas, But not when it comes to marriage. I never noticed how much so until this last year.


----------



## Mary L

LisaDiane said:


> If he is so determinedly ignoring your sexual needs, HOW can you feel loved by him, and how can you keep staying with him...?? Are you willing to give up on sex to be with someone who can see you hurting and not care at all about it...?


Well, I dont feel very loved. I know he loves me. I don't think HE knows how to show love. I'm not making excuses, I am trying to find help. 
I stay with him, because I do love him. We have a great relationship in many ways, but its more like great friends. 
I don't want to give up unless I see absolutely no way of healing this.
Talking with strangers about my sex life is new. I have never done this and have struggled with every word I have typed. I want a passionate sex life with the man I love. It's worth fighting for, even if I am lonely right now. I hope being apart of this community is apart of me finding answers for us. If not, I will have to face a new direction in life. Whether thats is with or without him, I cant say right now.


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## AVR1962

Mary L said:


> We have been married for 30 years.
> When we first met, sex wasn't huge. I
> 
> We have been married 30 years.
> In the beginning I was okay with a not so active sex life. I was sexually abused and it was okay not having such high demanding husband in the bedroom area. Hell, he's never been demanding anywhere!
> 
> We both initiated. We had sex about 2-3 times week, before kids, After kids it went down quickly. Sometimes it bothered me, other times I was just too busy to care. Earlier in our marriage, I was more concerned with the lack of romance, dating, foreplay, etc. than sex. Now I want all of it! lol
> I came into this relationship with a lot of issues. I know I am partially to blame here. But as I grow, he seems to not. He seems to actually get worse. Bt maybe that is because I also am seeing life differently.
> 
> He either works or pays attention to home life. Not both. Well, he has always worked, so...
> 
> We went on a 10 hr car trip last month. I drove. We barely talked, He was on FB or napping most of the trip. I finally turned music on and just tried to enjoy the road. If I would have said anything, he would have been frustrated because he wouldn't have understood. He thinks we have the BEST marriage. And we are best friends. We have a lot in common in many areas, But not when it comes to marriage. I never noticed how much so until this last year.


I feel for you! I made the same mistake as yourself. I had been cheated on so I wanted a man I felt "safe" with and it just happened to be someone that showed little desire in initiating sex. With time I too grew and for us also, he seemed to just disappear in his own world. We'd have the opportunity to be alone and he seemed content to just be in the same house, like that was enough companionship for him.


----------



## Mary L

AVR1962 said:


> I feel for you! I made the same mistake as yourself. I had been cheated on so I wanted a man I felt "safe" with and it just happened to be someone that showed little desire in initiating sex. With time I too grew and for us also, he seemed to just disappear in his own world. We'd have the opportunity to be alone and he seemed content to just be in the same house, like that was enough companionship for him.


Oh my gosh! Yes! "he seemed to just disappear in his own world" This is exactly what he does. And I really don't think its on purpose! He gets his feeling hurt easily and over whelmed easily, which he would never admit to, but he does. 
Watching his family dynamics over these years, I think his dad was pretty demanding and verbally cruel, and it was his escape to melt away into a world that can be peaceful.
If work weights heavy on him, if I am telling him how the kids are doing this or that, financial issues... he gets this blank look. I will say "I lost you in your safe place, didnt I?" We have laughed about it. He isn't really aware he does it. I have tried to explain to him that he does this in other areas. Checking out isn't an option! He's better, but wow that man! I could have 10 lifetimes and still haven't totally cracked him.


----------



## AVR1962

Mary L said:


> Oh my gosh! Yes! "he seemed to just disappear in his own world" This is exactly what he does. And I really don't think its on purpose! He gets his feeling hurt easily and over whelmed easily, which he would never admit to, but he does.
> Watching his family dynamics over these years, I think his dad was pretty demanding and verbally cruel, and it was his escape to melt away into a world that can be peaceful.
> If work weights heavy on him, if I am telling him how the kids are doing this or that, financial issues... he gets this blank look. I will say "I lost you in your safe place, didnt I?" We have laughed about it. He isn't really aware he does it. I have tried to explain to him that he does this in other areas. Checking out isn't an option! He's better, but wow that man! I could have 10 lifetimes and still haven't totally cracked him.


Men are very focused and if they are not interested in what they are hearing they can tune you out in a heart beat. Since my divorce and dating again it has been nice to have conversations with men who will actually say back to me what I have just stated, or they ask questions about something I have said, they engage.Your husband is not engaging, doesn't mean you have done anything wrong but I wonder, not saying it is so, if he has "checked out" in some way. It sounds like the two of you are roommates and neither one of you sound like you are fully happy with the marriage the way it is. Have you talked and expressed your desires for more intimacy and when I say that word I mean more touching, flirting, hand holding, date nights and quality time together? You want more passion but how are you going to bring it when you want to be receiving it from him? Do you think it is possible to bring this all back? Or has the marriage become more of you both mutually caring for one another kind of like our grandparents did? You know what I am saying?


----------



## Mary L

AVR1962 said:


> Men are very focused and if they are not interested in what they are hearing they can tune you out in a heart beat. Since my divorce and dating again it has been nice to have conversations with men who will actually say back to me what I have just stated, or they ask questions about something I have said, they engage.Your husband is not engaging, doesn't mean you have done anything wrong but I wonder, not saying it is so, if he has "checked out" in some way. It sounds like the two of you are roommates and neither one of you sound like you are fully happy with the marriage the way it is. Have you talked and expressed your desires for more intimacy and when I say that word I mean more touching, flirting, hand holding, date nights and quality time together? You want more passion but how are you going to bring it when you want to be receiving it from him? Do you think it is possible to bring this all back? Or has the marriage become more of you both mutually caring for one another kind of like our grandparents did? You know what I am saying?


I do know what you’re saying. 
The issue is, he’s always been like this. I just use to not care. I was okay being ignored and left to hold everything up. I was such an enabler.
But as I grow, I realize how dysfunctional some things are, and I deserve to be happy.
He really feels he’s justified to be the way he is and thinks I expect the moon. 
He needs to be more engaging. That’s a great word I say “present”. 
We never really dated. We hung out with friends, his place... then we moved in together and a couple years later started a family. He never took me out and I just didn’t make waves about it. He never had to work for it. MY MISTAKE!!
I’m not sure there’s ever been “passion”. Sadly. Maybe he would feel differently? 
we are roommates. We are best friends :/
I have talked to him till I’m blue in the face about intimacy. What I see it as, what it should be, how a marriage needs it. He agrees, but unless I make the move, we just don’t have it. 
right now I’m typing this. He’s watching a movie and has no clue. 
that’s just not okay!


----------



## AVR1962

Mary L said:


> I do know what you’re saying.
> The issue is, he’s always been like this. I just use to not care. I was okay being ignored and left to hold everything up. I was such an enabler.
> But as I grow, I realize how dysfunctional some things are, and I deserve to be happy.
> He really feels he’s justified to be the way he is and thinks I expect the moon.
> He needs to be more engaging. That’s a great word I say “present”.
> We never really dated. We hung out with friends, his place... then we moved in together and a couple years later started a family. He never took me out and I just didn’t make waves about it. He never had to work for it. MY MISTAKE!!
> I’m not sure there’s ever been “passion”. Sadly. Maybe he would feel differently?
> we are roommates. We are best friends :/
> I have talked to him till I’m blue in the face about intimacy. What I see it as, what it should be, how a marriage needs it. He agrees, but unless I make the move, we just don’t have it.
> right now I’m typing this. He’s watching a movie and has no clue.
> that’s just not okay!


I hear you loud and clear, I lived it too, I get it. It sounds like you have grown and you are ready to live now.


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## EleGirl

bumping this thread


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> bumping this thread


Bumping this thread is more action than many women have seen in the last few months.😉


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## AVR1962

ConanHub said:


> Bumping this thread is more action than many women have seen in the last few months.😉


Exactly! Men complain but seriously men are simply not available and if they were there would be no reason to complain. Women like sex and it is unfortunate that men make assumptions in their heads.


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## Johnny Mac

EleGirl said:


> I would like this thread to be a resource for women who are in sexless, or near sexless marriages in which it is their husbands who don’t want sex. I’m hoping that women dealing with this issue will post and talk about what they are going through.
> 
> About 20% of marriages are sexless. A sexless marriage is defined as one in which the couple has sex 10 or fewer times a year.
> 
> We hear a lot about women withholding sex and thus making a marriage sexless, or near sexless. There is a lot of empathy/sympathy out there for men stuck in such a marriage.
> 
> What we don’t hear of much is that about half of the sexless marriages are due to the husband choosing to make the marriage sexless. We are fed the falsehood that all men want sex all the time. Well that’s just not so. Some men do not want sex all the time.
> 
> Women who are in sexless marriages due to their husband’s choice to make the marriage sexless often feel that they have nowhere to turn, no one to talk to. They are rightly concerned that they will be blamed. It’s all their fault. When a woman thinks that all men want sex all the time, in her mind she becomes the only married woman who is so undesirable that her husband will not touch her.
> 
> Women are only now starting to be open about this. Marriage counselors are finally starting to talk about how common the problem is.
> 
> If you are a woman in a sexless marriage because it’s your husband’s choice to make it sexless, you are far from alone. Many of us women out here have had the same issue. We are, or were, married to a man like your husband.
> 
> TAM is a good place to come for moral support and some good advice. But there is no way that we here on TAM can give you all the input and help you need to resolve this issue. There are some books that I think would go a long way to help you understand what is going on in your marriage and figure out ways to fix it if at all possible. Here are some good books that have helped a lot of women.
> 
> Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It
> 
> Intimacy Anorexia: Healing the Hidden Addiction in Your Marriage
> 
> Sex-Starved Wives
> 
> *The Sex-Starved Wife: What to Do When He's Lost Desire*  by Michele Weiner Davis
> 
> Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence
> 
> In some sexless marriages, the issue is denying sex to control their spouse. Here are some links if you think you might be experiencing this
> 
> Narcissists, Sex and Fidelity - The Somatic Narcissist, The Asexual Cerebral Narcissist, Extramarital Affairs, and Paraphilias
> 
> Sexual Attitudes of a Narcissist: Sex and the Narcissist - The Narcissistic Life
> 
> The Sex Starved Wife
> =========================================
> =========================================
> =========================================
> 
> Below is some info from the book "Why Men Stop Having Sex".
> 
> WHAT STOPS THE PASSION? Why do men stop having sex with their wives? The reason is seldom simple and may have a physiological, psychological, or cultural foundation; recent studies add a genetic component. Often these elements combine. We looked at the statistical reasons our male survey respondents, who self-identified as choosing not to have sex with their spouses, gave us for no longer being intimate, and we studied their comments carefully. Let’s first take a look at some statistics. We asked men to rate a list of reasons on a scale that went from strongly agree to strongly disagree. The following table lists in descending order the percentage of men who agreed with each of the causes.
> 
> 
> *%% WHY MEN SAID THEY STOPPED*
> 
> 68%……She isn’t sexually adventurous enough for me.
> (This lack of newness, energy, and emotion translates for many men into a lack of adventure and sexual enjoyment on the part of their partners, transferring the problem and ignoring the fact that they [the men] are not bringing any originality to bed, either.)​
> 61%……She doesn’t seem to enjoy sex.
> 48%……I am interested in sex with others, but not with my wife.
> 44%……I am angry at her.
> 41%……I’m bored.
> 40%……She is depressed.
> 38%……She has gained a significant amount of weight.
> 34%……I am depressed.
> 32%……I no longer find her physically attractive.
> 30%……I suffer from erectile dysfunction.
> 28%……I lost interest and I don’t know why.
> 25%……I prefer to masturbate, but not online.
> 25%……I prefer to watch pornography online and masturbate.
> 21%……I am on medication that lowered my libido.
> 20%……I am/was having an affair.
> 16%……I suffer from premature ejaculation.
> 15%……I have difficulty achieving orgasm.
> 14%……I am too tired.
> 09%……She is/was having an affair.
> 06%……I don’t have the time.
> 03%……I wasn’t interested in sex to begin with.
> <1%……I am gay.
> 
> Although the men know (or at least think they know) the reasons for their voluntary celibacy but the women are only guessing, either way the situation is embarrassing and painful. * It is therefore not surprising that both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves.* Indeed, men indicate a lack of sexual adventure (hers, not his) as primary. It is difficult to believe that this lack of erotic excitement is completely one-sided, and that these men who identify their wives as unadventurous are themselves imaginatively passionate guys, just somehow mysteriously unable to inspire the one woman they chose to marry. Both men and women agree most with statements that shift responsibility away from themselves. After all, they probably knew her acceptable level of tolerance for erotic exploration before the vows were exchanged. We suspect that boredom or other factors is closer to the truth, or they are confusing the pornography they see on DVDs or the Internet with reality.
> 
> Berkowitz, Bob; Yager-Berkowitz, Susan. He's Just Not Up for It Anymore: Why Men Stop Having Sex, and What You Can Do About It (pp. 13-15). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
> 
> ==============================================
> Another thing that is becoming more and more of an issue is men who prefer to use porn to masturbate to instead of having sex with their wife (or significant other).
> 
> I've had discussions with women who say that their husband seldom has sex with them. Instead he uses port many times more in a month than he will have sex with her...if he will have sex with her at all. But she will make a strong point that her husband does not have a porn addition. I'm not sure if it matters one iota if we call it an addiction or not. He prefers to have sex with porn than with her. There is a reason and it needs to be addressed if the couple is ever going to have sex life. So label it addiction, or don't label it. It's all the same thing.
> 
> There are ways for men who use porn to the extent that it is hurting their marital sex life. There is a way to get the desire for their desire for their wife back.
> 
> This has become so common that there is now a lot of information about it available. If you search on "cure porn addiction", many sites will come up that talk about how to fix this.
> 
> Here is a site with a lot of info on this topic: *Your Brain on Porn*
> 
> 
> 
> .


Wow, this thread is probably for women only but I’m a male, im 43 and I’m horny all the time...but, my wife is SUPER COLD so I really don’t understand a cold husband...or maybe I’m just weird lol


----------



## TXTrini

Johnny Mac said:


> Wow, this thread is probably for women only but I’m a male, im 43 and I’m horny all the time...but, my wife is SUPER COLD so I really don’t understand a cold husband...or maybe I’m just weird lol


Oh, it exists, I lived this for over a decade. If people would remember we are all people instead of generalizing men do this and women do that, things would be much less surprising. 

Anyways, I'm no longer an incel  , but it took a divorce to achieve that.


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## AVR1962

Johnny Mac said:


> Wow, this thread is probably for women only but I’m a male, im 43 and I’m horny all the time...but, my wife is SUPER COLD so I really don’t understand a cold husband...or maybe I’m just weird lol


Tell me about it!!!! I am female, was married to my husband for 24 years. Even when dating he did not come onto me, he did not approach me even with caresses, hugs, hand holding, nothing. there were no words of love from him. He was military and was fearing a deployment and had custody of his sons, we were more like friends and basically agreed to marry. It was more like a team to raise the children, I also brought 2 into the picture. The marriage was lacking right from the start and even as a dating couple he was turning to porn instead of me. We had many talk, I asked plenty of questions. We even went to counseling. One of our counselors felt he may have been sexually abused, he said this was typical of sexually abused men. Another counselor said that he may have had an overwhelming fear of rejection. Whatever the case, it was not good for us. I had sex dreams for years!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Johnny Mac

AVR1962 said:


> Tell me about it!!!! I am female, was married to my husband for 24 years. Even when dating he did not come onto me, he did not approach me even with caresses, hugs, hand holding, nothing. there were no words of love from him. He was military and was fearing a deployment and had custody of his sons, we were more like friends and basically agreed to marry. It was more like a team to raise the children, I also brought 2 into the picture. The marriage was lacking right from the start and even as a dating couple he was turning to porn instead of me. We had many talk, I asked plenty of questions. We even went to counseling. One of our counselors felt he may have been sexually abused, he said this was typical of sexually abused men. Another counselor said that he may have had an overwhelming fear of rejection. Whatever the case, it was not good for us. I had sex dreams for years!!!!!!!!!


Oh my gosh, no disrespect but where have you been all these years..I’ve been looking for you...jk lol


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## AVR1962

Johnny Mac said:


> Oh my gosh, no disrespect but where have you been all these years..I’ve been looking for you...jk lol


What I learned from all of this was what was and was not important to me. I have always had a high sex drive and it is important to me that the man I am with be able to show his love and interest for me. Sharing your life together is more than sex but if the sex isn't working the rest will not work either. My thought is there is no better way to start a day than a little bit of morning sex and even when I am tired at night, it is the best medicine to help me fall asleep. I refer to sex as my drug....I don't do drugs by the way, lol!!!!!!! It sex really helps my mental state of mind. Whoever I decide to be with a good healthy sex life is a must.


----------



## TXTrini

AVR1962 said:


> What I learned from all of this was what was and was not important to me. I have always had a high sex drive and it is important to me that the man I am with be able to show his love and interest for me. Sharing your life together is more than sex but if the sex isn't working the rest will not work either. My thought is there is no better way to start a day than a little bit of morning sex and even when I am tired at night, it is the best medicine to help me fall asleep. I refer to sex as my drug....I don't do drugs by the way, lol!!!!!!! It sex really helps my mental state of mind. Whoever I decide to be with a good healthy sex life is a must.


^^This


My exH would not have sex with me, it definitely negatively affected our marriage. To add insult to injury, he ended up cheating with a teenager after years of stringing me along bc he liked our life otherwise. There's no way I'm putting up with that again. My bf's drive does not quite match mine, but he takes care of me when I need it. 

AVR1962, the only thing about liking sex that much is you best be careful, many men say they want a "nympho" and when faced with reality they get butthurt about it


----------



## ConanHub

TXTrini said:


> ^^This
> 
> 
> My exH would not have sex with me, it definitely negatively affected our marriage. To add insult to injury, he ended up cheating with a teenager after years of stringing me along bc he liked our life otherwise. There's no way I'm putting up with that again. My bf's drive does not quite match mine, but he takes care of me when I need it.
> 
> AVR1962, the only thing about liking sex that much is you best be careful, many men say they want a "nympho" and when faced with reality they get butthurt about it


LoL! There are definitely some false myths regarding the frequency "all" men are supposed to be able to have.

Undersexed wives are definitely an underreported group.


----------



## AVR1962

TXTrini said:


> ^^This
> 
> 
> My exH would not have sex with me, it definitely negatively affected our marriage. To add insult to injury, he ended up cheating with a teenager after years of stringing me along bc he liked our life otherwise. There's no way I'm putting up with that again. My bf's drive does not quite match mine, but he takes care of me when I need it.
> 
> AVR1962, the only thing about liking sex that much is you best be careful, many men say they want a "nympho" and when faced with reality they get butthurt about it


I have been with a friend for the past 1 1/2 years and we seemed evenly matched and very much enjoy this part of our lives together.


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## EleGirl

Bump to the top...


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## DownByTheRiver

AVR1962 said:


> Tell me about it!!!! I am female, was married to my husband for 24 years. Even when dating he did not come onto me, he did not approach me even with caresses, hugs, hand holding, nothing. there were no words of love from him. He was military and was fearing a deployment and had custody of his sons, we were more like friends and basically agreed to marry. It was more like a team to raise the children, I also brought 2 into the picture. The marriage was lacking right from the start and even as a dating couple he was turning to porn instead of me. We had many talk, I asked plenty of questions. We even went to counseling. One of our counselors felt he may have been sexually abused, he said this was typical of sexually abused men. Another counselor said that he may have had an overwhelming fear of rejection. Whatever the case, it was not good for us. I had sex dreams for years!!!!!!!!!


You just didn't have mutual physical attraction. I could never have sex with a guy I just regarded as a friend.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

DownByTheRiver said:


> You just didn't have mutual physical attraction. I could never have sex with a guy I just regarded as a friend.


I had to think about that a second.
When young and single I had sex with a lot of girls I regarded as friends, or at least at no time did I consider them as potential marriage mates.
But I was honest up front, not misleading.
I do think that was because I specifically wasn't looking to get M.

Then I met my W, things changed.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I had to think about that a second.
> When young and single I had sex with a lot of girls I regarded as friends, or at least at no time did I consider them as potential marriage mates.
> But I was honest up front, not misleading.
> I do think that was because I specifically wasn't looking to get M.
> 
> Then I met my W, things changed.


I think more guys will have sex with women they aren't even that attracted to or feel romantic toward than women will. And everyone is different anyway. Some men and women must get that friendship going first. Just doesn't work for everyone.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think more guys will have sex with women they aren't even that attracted to or feel romantic toward than women will. And everyone is different anyway. Some men and women must get that friendship going first. Just doesn't work for everyone.


Is true. The truth I was good friends with and liked them a lot and had great times but all knew things weren't intended to last. So all was well.


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## punkrockwife

My problem is that I feel like sex is only when he wants it. I wake up at 5 am for work and he will wake me at midnight or 1 am. When I try to bring it up, I freeze and decide not to. 

I know this stems from previous relationships where I was called "clingy" and "needy". I am open to advice on how to bring it up to him. Thanks in advance ladies.


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## alatinteacher

The first year of my marriage, my wife and I had sex three or four times A DAY! It was great. But after the third child her libido just went down hill. Year after year the sex got less and less every month of the year. Some months I was lucky to get "some" once a week. After our 20 years of marriage, there was a time where FIVE MONTHS went by without any sex. She lost any and all interest. She has no desire and much less an erotic fantasy. I seriously considered having an affair with married women who are in the same situation.

As if she lost any and all interest in sex or even intimacy. Her theory was "you don't need to have sex to have a "happy" marriage". Well that's ok if the guy loses out or can't "get it up". 

My advice to you single guys or girls. If your potential spouse and future husband or wife doesn't enjoy or desire SEX as much as you do, DON'T get married.


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## ah_sorandy

alatinteacher said:


> The first year of my marriage, my wife and I had sex three or four times A DAY! It was great. But after the third child her libido just went down hill. Year after year the sex got less and less every month of the year. Some months I was lucky to get "some" once a week. After our 20 years of marriage, there was a time where FIVE MONTHS went by without any sex. She lost any and all interest. She has no desire and much less an erotic fantasy. I seriously considered having an affair with married women who are in the same situation.
> 
> As if she lost any and all interest in sex or even intimacy. Her theory was "you don't need to have sex to have a "happy" marriage". Well that's ok if the guy loses out or can't "get it up".
> 
> My advice to you single guys or girls. If your potential spouse and future husband or wife doesn't enjoy or desire SEX as much as you do, DON'T get married.


Unless you live together before marriage, it's hard to evaluate your potential mate's sexual desire. I missed some obvious red flags while dating my wife, and I married her despite her low desire during dating.

She avoided having sex in her and my parent's houses. She did not want to have sex in my car either. She was deathly afraid of becoming pregnant while not being married. She also did not know much about sex and was a virgin when I met her. I took my time, and deflowered her very gently. It took nearly a year till we had PIV sex.


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## Hiner112

TXTrini said:


> AVR1962, the only thing about liking sex that much is you best be careful, many men say they want a "nympho" and when faced with reality they get butthurt about it


In some ways I identify with this. At the end of my marriage my ex was "in the mood" on Ovulation Day (TM) (IE one day a month) and I was under the impression that because I was always in the mood when I wasn't having sex that I'd be in the mood (and able) all the time if I was with someone that was in the mood, too.

I will take one issue with this. I'm 100% sure that it isn't my butt that hurts though .


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

ah_sorandy said:


> Unless you live together before marriage, it's hard to evaluate your potential mate's sexual desire. I missed some obvious red flags while dating my wife, and I married her despite her low desire during dating.
> 
> She avoided having sex in her and my parent's houses. She did not want to have sex in my car either. She was deathly afraid of becoming pregnant while not being married. She also did not know much about sex and was a virgin when I met her. I took my time, and deflowered her very gently. It took nearly a year till we had PIV sex.


Yeah, you did.


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## DownByTheRiver

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I had to think about that a second.
> When young and single I had sex with a lot of girls I regarded as friends, or at least at no time did I consider them as potential marriage mates.
> But I was honest up front, not misleading.
> I do think that was because I specifically wasn't looking to get M.
> 
> Then I met my W, things changed.


Yeah. But if I had no physical attraction but regarded him only as a friend, I am not going to be sexually interested in him though I may remain friends. It is good to get to know someone enough (but it doesn't take long) to see if some personality chemistry works its magic, and it can make a person more attractive to you, but it was rare that it did in my life.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

DownByTheRiver said:


> Yeah. But if I had no physical attraction but regarded him only as a friend, I am not going to be sexually interested in him though I may remain friends. It is good to get to know someone enough (but it doesn't take long) to see if some personality chemistry works its magic, and it can make a person more attractive to you, but it was rare that it did in my life.


Part of their friendship qualities were being physically attractive. 😉


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## DownByTheRiver

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Part of their friendship qualities were being physically attractive. 😉


I mean I have met a couple of guys I wasn't attracted to at first but then started thinking they were more attractive just because they had a cool personality or whatever. It's not always about just physical looks. A really good personality will overcome a lot.


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