# really struggling today



## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

Hi all
I am really struggling today.

I was in R with my H, after finding out he had a ONS. He appeared to be doing all the right things, appeared to be saying all the right things, but I felt there could be more skeletons so I asked him to do a poly and he quickly admitted he had 2 further ONS. I had an idea he had been unfaithful at a works conference, and I was right. he'd spent a whole year in false R with me, trying to convince me I had the whole truth.

This has been a huge set back for me. One ONS could be considered a very big mistake, but something you can learn from, and even accept in a long term marriage. But now I know he has done this 3 separate times over a period of about 6 or 7 years.

We are trying to R again, hopefully this time with the truth, but not sure how I'm meant to know I have the truth as he has proven himself to be such an ACE at lying. My gut is I have the truth _now._ But I wont ever know that for sure.

What I am struggling with as the days go by.....3 times, he did this to me and his children 3 times! I have always been of the opinion that if my H cheated that would be it, no second chances...But then when it happens you stop and realise this is life to some extent...and everyone can make a mistake. Even a really big one, they can learn from it and hopefully move on vowing never to betray again. If a spouse cheats once and you give them a warning, no second chances and they cheat again, then you file for Divorce. But what do you do when you find out they have already cheated on you 3 times? 

This man I thought was my perfect husband and a perfect father. He is not that man, now he is a different man. 

I do love him, and I believe he loves me. I do want my marriage to survive but as the days go by I keep asking myself what will our future be with me having this knowledge about him. He isn't the man i thought he was in any way, that man would never have betrayed me 3 times. 

Not sure if R is the right thing even if we do love each other. Others must file for D still loving their WS. 

I don't believe he had any remorse at the times he cheated, or guilt. When i questioned him after his last cheat he was very calm and calculated......I guess that says a lot!

He does seem genuinely remorseful now, but only because he has seen the pain he has caused me. If i'd never found out he more than likely wouldn't have stopped at 3 ONS, and I have come to the conclusion that after each of these ONS he would have gone back for more if the opportunity had been there.

He has been to IC via MC, is being transparent as far as i can see, I have passwords to FB and email access if i want it. He is doing everything he can do now....but it doesn't seem to be enough. 

Another thing, he smoked weed for all of our marriage, and threw it in the bin on first DD. He seems like a different man since he stopped smoking it. He also seems to hold it responsible in some ways for his actions. Not acute actions but more his general lifestyle for a lot of years of our marriage.

I am wondering if it is all too late for us to be saved.

Any advice would be really appreciated.

(sorry this was long)


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

The thing is, only you can know that. Is there enough that you love about this man and your marriage to work through this?

Try making a list of the good things about him - what did you fall in love with? Is that still there?


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

wow. Gemjo. Im so sorry. this is a BS' biggest fear isnt it? I know for sure its mine. fear of the unknown. Knowing what accomplished liars they are. I guess my question to you is are there more reasons to stay than there are to go? Has he gotten to the bottom of WHY? Are you satisfied with that answer? I think in my case(H had an EA) the 'why' was huge. So for you and your H, what is the why? and do you think its legit? do you consider it 'fixable'?


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

gemjo said:


> He isn't the man i thought he was in any way, that man would never have betrayed me 3 times.
> 
> Hi gemjo. One of the crappiest things we have to do when we are trying to reconcile, is to realize that the spouse we knew and loved is no longer there. The betrayal literally makes them a different person. The old husband, the one you trusted completely is gone, and now you have the accurate version. Do you love the accurate version?
> 
> ...


Sometimes things can be saved, sometimes not. It is all up to you. I know that feeling you have, almost like you are losing respect for yourself by considering staying with his after 3 ONS's. But you have to try and remember that the one you should lose respect for is HIM. HE did this, not you. You are simply trying to figure out if you can live with it. No reason to rush, give yourself time to figure it all out.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

Hi redhead,

Yeah I love loads about my H. If I wrote a list it would be a long list of good points v one big humdinger x 3 on the bad list.

Having loads of good points doesn't change the fact he was capable of not only making a great big stupid mistake, but that he didn't come home remorseful, he chose to keep his secret and do it again and then again....this is the killer!

Thanks for your words x


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

gemjo said:


> Hi redhead,
> 
> Yeah I love loads about my H. If I wrote a list it would be a long list of good points v one big humdinger x 3 on the bad list.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right, those things don't negate the wrong that he did. They should help you decide if they are worth trying to salvage this marriage or not. 

I am sorry - this is unbelievably painful to go through. When my EA came to light, this was the exercise we both did to find out IF this marriage had any merit or possibility of a future. After all, if we couldn't think of anything we loved any more, it would be best to walk away then.

Initially - this was the hardest thing for him to do. He came up with very practical reasons (family/money/obligation) but really nothing about LOVE or emotional connection. 

There are definitely good days and bad days. Today, seems to be a good day. Friday, I was certain it was over. Tomorrow - who knows?

I hope things get better for you.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> wow. Gemjo. Im so sorry. this is a BS' biggest fear isnt it? I know for sure its mine. fear of the unknown. Knowing what accomplished liars they are. I guess my question to you is are there more reasons to stay than there are to go? Has he gotten to the bottom of WHY? Are you satisfied with that answer? I think in my case(H had an EA) the 'why' was huge. So for you and your H, what is the why? and do you think its legit? do you consider it 'fixable'?


I think he has gotten to the bottom of WHY? But I only know what he tells me and he only tells me what I ask him, and even then I fear he thinks too long about how his answers will affect me. When all I need is the complete truth.

I believe the true reason to be he thought he was missing out on something, someone came along and showed a little interest and he had no willpower. Didn't think about me or his children.....just a stupid selfish act with women who aren't fit to walk the same path as me.

Biggest sh1tty thing is, just after I first suspected he may have cheated our lives changed for the better as Two eldest left home for Uni etc... So we had so much more time for one another and just as things were starting to come good, meals out, weekends away.....getting closer.....it was really already too late. He'd cheated just months before. That's the hardest thing for me to deal with, it was just last year!


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

DawnD said:


> Sometimes things can be saved, sometimes not. It is all up to you. I know that feeling you have, almost like you are losing respect for yourself by considering staying with his after 3 ONS's. But you have to try and remember that the one you should lose respect for is HIM. HE did this, not you. You are simply trying to figure out if you can live with it. No reason to rush, give yourself time to figure it all out.


You hit the nail on the head. Losing respect for myself by considering giving him another chance......it's such a gamble.

I won't rush, but as time ticks by I'm becoming more rational about 
what he did to me....with seemingly such little regard providing I never found out.

I have lost my respect for him, I always said he was my 'raft' he kept me safe. He was the one person in this world I trusted to not hurt me, and yet he has destroyed me, and seemingly all for nothing. A few quick drunken fumbles, slept off in another woman's hotel room.....my respect has turned to disgust. Will that ever change?


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Gemjo - go forward with the polygraph. He admitted to 2 more before you got there, right? The only way you'll REALLY know how many is to make him do the poly anyway. Shouldn't be a problem, if he has no more to hide, right???


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Gemjo - go forward with the polygraph. He admitted to 2 more before you got there, right? The only way you'll REALLY know how many is to make him do the poly anyway. Shouldn't be a problem, if he has no more to hide, right???


Yeah, have discussed this for after Christmas, he has said he will do it, and arrange it, but not sure it would make enough of a difference to me now. Even if it's all truth, it's too little way too late.

To be honest knowing he has cheated 3 times is enough, what difference would it be to me if he did a poly and he ended up having cheated another 6 times.....

3 times is already too many times.

I just feel like such an F'ing fool!


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

gemjo said:


> Yeah, have discussed this for after Christmas, he has said he will do it, and arrange it, but not sure it would make enough of a difference to me now. Even if it's all truth, it's too little way too late.
> 
> To be honest knowing he has cheated 3 times is enough, what difference would it be to me if he did a poly and he ended up having cheated another 6 times.....
> 
> ...


Well, the point wouldn't be the number, it would be the lying. Lying is often the worst part. Lying is what crushes trust. You can't start climbing out until you know you're at the bottom.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Well, the point wouldn't be the number, it would be the lying. Lying is often the worst part. Lying is what crushes trust. You can't start climbing out until you know you're at the bottom.


So true, I did keep saying, just tell me the truth, I can cope with truth better than the lies.....but I am struggling with the truth....as much as with the lies....maybe if he'd confessed all on first DD I would be feeling differently right now, but who knows?

In some ways I feel I should be stronger, and that I deserve better, but there is some small part of me that is holding on just in case he has changed now he is faced with what he has done to me and how close he is to losing me....but the mind is complex and for every 'if' there is a 'but' and I'm so scared about whatever decision I make.

So I make none.....I live each day as it comes, and there are more good than bad, but right now I'm in a bad place. My hormones are not helping I can tell you! Pms week is a ****** for sure!

Wedding anniversary at weekend, 17 years, we have booked a long weekend away.....watch this space.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

Gemjo, you have to do what you need to for your health. 

You may want to R, but not at the cost of you dying a little on the inside each day. 

Its probably not helpful, but you're gonna have to go deeper than ever and see if you can know if you truly want to be with him in the future. 

His affairs and lying will always make a space between you. With R it may get smaller, but it'll never go away. There is also a ceiling on trust. You'll never be able to trust him fully again, and in the future will be wondering where he is, what hes doing, and who hes with because of his past. 

The question is, can you live with that for what could be the rest of your life? 

Some can do it, some can't. 

I myself fall into the latter category, but everyone is different when it comes to the bleak/bittersweet outlook of the relationship post DDay/s


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

Kasler said:


> Gemjo, you have to do what you need to for your health.
> 
> You may want to R, but not at the cost of you dying a little on the inside each day.
> 
> ...


I know what you are saying, and I can, I believe trust he won't do anything like this again, not now he has seen what he has done to me, and the two eldest children know what he has done also. He is disgusted with himself, and knowing what we know about him.

He is doing everything right now, and I trust he will continue to do the right thing......the problem is can I accept the past?

Knowing he isn't the man I thought he was, or am I living some idealistic nonsense....is that my naivety and innocense being flushed down the toilet I don't like.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

gemjo said:


> I know what you are saying, and I can, I believe trust he won't do anything like this again, not now he has seen what he has done to me, and the two eldest children know what he has done also. He is disgusted with himself, and knowing what we know about him.
> 
> He is doing everything right now, and I trust he will continue to do the right thing......the problem is can I accept the past?
> 
> Knowing he isn't the man I thought he was, or am I living some idealistic nonsense....is that my naivety and innocense being flushed down the toilet I don't like.


Thats a tough one. I wouldn't say its your naivete and innocence being tossed in the wind, but more you've been given a harsh outlook on him as a person. Basically removing the pink colored glasses and seeing someone for who they really are.m 

Thats rough, but it depends on can you acknowledge the person after the glasses are removed and form a new relationship with that person.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

gemjo said:


> You hit the nail on the head. Losing respect for myself by considering giving him another chance......it's such a gamble.
> 
> I won't rush, but as time ticks by I'm becoming more rational about
> what he did to me....with seemingly such little regard providing I never found out.
> ...


 If I die tomorrow, and the worst thing people can say about me is that I took a chance on my H after knowing what he was capable of, I will die happy. I was there for a long time, where I felt like I was less of a person for reconciling. But then I look around, and I want to be here. Sometimes that is not the case for couples trying to R, and there is no shame in that either. 

I think once you accept fully that he has done it, and accept that he was willing to risk it all for some strange, you start to come to a conclusion. You either decide you can TRY to reconcile (by trying I mean you attempt to move forward in the relationship) or you can decide that yes he is human, but you can not deal with his demons and behavior. I truly think that his false R set you up for failure. Going through it once is tough, twice is earth shattering.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

gemjo said:


> In some ways I feel I should be stronger, and that I deserve better, .


You absolutely do. Whether or not that better comes from him or someone else is the true question.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Personally, I would cancel the anniversary trip. If you go, you'll be sending the message of forgiveness and moving forward, celebrating, which is something you are not ready to do yet.

Maybe go by yourself to think.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

I'm sorry for your sadness and being forced to make a decision due to your H making some really lousy ones. I recall years ago, dear Abbey (or Ann Landers) wrote in one of her columns about infidelity that you have to ask yourself one question regarding R. - would your life be better with him or without him? Do you want to stay married to a liar? Did he put you at risk for an STD ? If he was never caught would he continue cheating? What does your gut tell you? Go with that. You might have a nice life ahead of you without him. Best of luck to you .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

DawnD said:


> If I die tomorrow, and the worst thing people can say about me is that I took a chance on my H after knowing what he was capable of, I will die happy. I was there for a long time, where I felt like I was less of a person for reconciling. But then I look around, and I want to be here. Sometimes that is not the case for couples trying to R, and there is no shame in that either.
> 
> I think once you accept fully that he has done it, and accept that he was willing to risk it all for some strange, you start to come to a conclusion. You either decide you can TRY to reconcile (by trying I mean you attempt to move forward in the relationship) or you can decide that yes he is human, but you can not deal with his demons and behavior. I truly think that his false R set you up for failure. Going through it once is tough, twice is earth shattering.


I agree with you that I won't leave this world having tried to the best of my ability to do what ever it takes to save my marriage. I know it's still early days, but for some reason, I can't work out if he's being completely honest or if he is still trying to say the right thing instead of the truth. I ask a question and he's willing to listen to me, but he seems stumped in his answers. He just doesn't know what to say to me....it seems like such hard work!

I feel like he is being too guarded in his replies instead of just answering the truth. He keeps saying he doesn't know, or life was confusing because of how much weed he smoked. I ask 'did you think of me before you did these things?' he can't seem to answer me.......so I don't know, I've never been a pot head! Maybe his memories are jumbled, maybe he is telling me all he can. I feel like he is trying to say what he thinks I want to hear, and to me it doesn't make sense.

I ask why didn't you have enough remorse to tell me after the first ONS and we could have worked on any problems, because I didn't know we had any.....so what chance did I have to make changes? He says work was work and home was home! So this is compartmentalisation.....so what does that really mean? Is this his nature? Can it be changed?

I'm still very confused but willing to try anything, and he is acting all devastated at the prospect of losing me....but still it's hard work to get anything out of him, that actually makes sense or seems genuine....or maybe I want answers to questions and there aren't any! Do I make any sense? Or am I going crazy?


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Personally, I would cancel the anniversary trip. If you go, you'll be sending the message of forgiveness and moving forward, celebrating, which is something you are not ready to do yet.
> 
> Maybe go by yourself to think.


I have considered this....but I feel we should go, if only for the reason we are away from home, away from two teenage boys and it will give us some real time to evaluate. It won't be giving him any ideas that he is forgiven, believe me, he knows he is not!


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

gemjo said:


> I agree with you that I won't leave this world having tried to the best of my ability to do what ever it takes to save my marriage. I know it's still early days, but for some reason, I can't work out if he's being completely honest or if he is still trying to say the right thing instead of the truth. I ask a question and he's willing to listen to me, but he seems stumped in his answers. He just doesn't know what to say to me....it seems like such hard work!
> He is trying to not hurt you, without realizing that by not telling you the truth he IS hurting you. He is thinking damage control, while you just want to know the facts.
> 
> I feel like he is being too guarded in his replies instead of just answering the truth. He keeps saying he doesn't know, or life was confusing because of how much weed he smoked. I ask 'did you think of me before you did these things?' he can't seem to answer me.......so I don't know, I've never been a pot head! Maybe his memories are jumbled, maybe he is telling me all he can. I feel like he is trying to say what he thinks I want to hear, and to me it doesn't make sense.Damage control. He knows if he tells you the truth, that it is going to not only hurt you, but then he has to deal with what he did on an even more personal level. He doesn't want to come out and say, no, you were never on my mind, I was just worried about getting laid...
> ...


It is very natural for us to want the WS to do something, but we don't know what we want them to do, and they have no idea WHAT to do. It isn't like he can bring home flowers and BAM you forget about his cheating LOL. He could very well be truly stumped on what steps to take to better himself and the relationship after the mess he caused. I think you need to come out and say I want the truth, and I will not settle for less. If you can not give me the truth than I can not agree to stay in this relationship. But you have to be willing to walk away to do that.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

brokenhearted2 said:


> I'm sorry for your sadness and being forced to make a decision due to your H making some really lousy ones. I recall years ago, dear Abbey (or Ann Landers) wrote in one of her columns about infidelity that you have to ask yourself one question regarding R. - would your life be better with him or without him? Do you want to stay married to a liar? Did he put you at risk for an STD ? If he was never caught would he continue cheating? What does your gut tell you? Go with that. You might have a nice life ahead of you without him. Best of luck to you .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel quite strongly that my life is better with him, than without him. 

I don't want to stay married to a liar, so I am putting my trust in him that he now knows lying is the wrong thing to do if he wants to stay with me. 

It is possible he put me at risk of STD....

If he wasn't caught, then possibly yes, he would have continued cheating. But he wa caught so is this relevant today?

My gut says he has had the biggest wake up call ever known to man, and if he ever gives me even a seconds worth of reason to doubt he will be out of my life of good, no second chances!

I'm sure I could find a nice life without him in the future, but I figure we deserve a chance, now the truth is out, and the kids deserve that chance more than he does. He now has so much to prove, this is just the first rung of a very tall ladder!


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

DawnD said:


> It is very natural for us to want the WS to do something, but we don't know what we want them to do, and they have no idea WHAT to do. It isn't like he can bring home flowers and BAM you forget about his cheating LOL. He could very well be truly stumped on what steps to take to better himself and the relationship after the mess he caused. I think you need to come out and say I want the truth, and I will not settle for less. If you can not give me the truth than I can not agree to stay in this relationship. But you have to be willing to walk away to do that.


You talk a lot of sense, and it is obvious you have walked this path. Have you ever read the poem called 'stepping stones'?

I will try to find it and post it for you.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

gemjo said:


> You talk a lot of sense, and it is obvious you have walked this path. Have you ever read the poem called 'stepping stones'?
> 
> I will try to find it and post it for you.


Come take my hand, the road is long.
We must travel by stepping stones.
No, you're not alone. I'll go with you.
I know the road well, I've been there.
Don't fear the darkness, I'll be there with you.
We must take one step at a time
But remember, we may have to stop awhile.
It is a long way to the other side
And there may be obstacles.
We have many stones to cross, some are bigger than others,
Shock, denial, and anger to start.
Then comes guilt, despair, and loneliness.
It's a hard road to travel, but it must be done.
It's the only way to reach the other side.
Come slip your hand into mine.
What? Oh yes, its strong, I've held so many hands like yours.
Yes, mine was once small and weak like yours.
Once, you see, I had to take someone's hand in order to take the first step.
Oops! You've stumbled; go ahead and cry.
Don't be ashamed; I understand.
Let's wait here awhile and get your breath.
When you're stronger, we'll go on, one-step at a time.
There’s no need to hurry.
Say, it's nice to hear you laugh. Yes, I agree,
The memories you shared are good.
Look, we're halfway there now; I can see the other side.
It looks so warm and sunny.
Oh, have you noticed, we're nearing the last stone and you're standing alone?
We've reached the other side.
But wait, look back, someone is standing there.
They are alone and want to cross the stepping stones.
I'd better go, they may need help.
What? Are you sure?
Why, yes, go ahead, I'll wait, you know the way, you've been there.
Yes, I agree, it's your turn, my friend-
To help someone else cross the stepping stones.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

its a beautiful poem gemjo. One of the most overlooked things during reconciliation, is telling the BS that it is OKAY to ask for things you feel you need. If you need him to get IC, tell him that! If you need it, speak it. We think that since they cheated, they should know how to fix it, and it always ends in heartbreak when it isn't helped along. Sit down and make your list of things you need. Doesn't have to be long or complicated. Mine was.....well.....weird.. LOL.

I wanted the truth, all of it. 
I wanted flowers once a week. (yeah, serously)
I wanted transparency
I wanted accountability from him (where, when, who)
I wanted him to LET me break down


and the list goes on.... and you are the only one who knows.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

gemjo, your story is almost EXACTLY like mine. I mean I could have written everything you said. Only exception is WS only confessed to the ONS, he won't admit to anything else. He agreed to the poly, but failed. He still won't come clean, still says the ONS was it. But, I know there had to be more. The poly really only added more pain for me. 

The ONS was nine years ago, I found out a year ago. It has been hell. About a month ago when I threatened the poly again he told me he actually knew the girl. So, a year of lying by omission. It has set me back to square one, but he's about done.

We started back with a new MC a couple weeks ago. Really, I think the lying has just become too much. I worry for my children. It's a very tough place to be. I've been with him for twenty years, married seventeen. This is so painful. I send you hugs.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

DawnD said:


> its a beautiful poem gemjo. One of the most overlooked things during reconciliation, is telling the BS that it is OKAY to ask for things you feel you need. If you need him to get IC, tell him that! If you need it, speak it. We think that since they cheated, they should know how to fix it, and it always ends in heartbreak when it isn't helped along. Sit down and make your list of things you need. Doesn't have to be long or complicated. Mine was.....well.....weird.. LOL.
> 
> I wanted the truth, all of it.
> I wanted flowers once a week. (yeah, serously)
> ...


I can live without the flowers, but I will consider a request for them...lol
The truth, yes, vital, but I don't trust myself right now so how can I trust him!
Transparency I already have for over a year.
The worst thing for him is seeing me break down. I have him sleep on sofa on bad nights so he doesn't hear e cry myself to sleep.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

gemjo said:


> I can live without the flowers, but I will consider a request for them...lol
> The truth, yes, vital, but I don't trust myself right now so how can I trust him!
> Transparency I already have for over a year.
> The worst thing for him is seeing me break down. I have him sleep on sofa on bad nights so he doesn't hear e cry myself to sleep.


WHY? He should hear you cry yourself to sleep. And he should be there to try and comfort you, let you be mad, sad, destroyed, etc, etc. He did this, and he should be exposed to how it has affected you. I didn't hide a thing. (unfortunately I get really really mad and then sad a few weeks later) He saw my anger and eventually he saw my despair. And he needed to so he could fully grasp what he had just done.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

hurtingbadly said:


> gemjo, your story is almost EXACTLY like mine. I mean I could have written everything you said. Only exception is WS only confessed to the ONS, he won't admit to anything else. He agreed to the poly, but failed. He still won't come clean, still says the ONS was it. But, I know there had to be more. The poly really only added more pain for me.
> 
> The ONS was nine years ago, I found out a year ago. It has been hell. About a month ago when I threatened the poly again he told me he actually knew the girl. So, a year of lying by omission. It has set me back to square one, but he's about done.
> 
> We started back with a new MC a couple weeks ago. Really, I think the lying has just become too much. I worry for my children. It's a very tough place to be. I've been with him for twenty years, married seventeen. This is so painful. I send you hugs.


Yeah we are living a similar path. Married seventeen years on Saturday, I found out he cheated years after the act, only difference is, when faced with poly he confessed to two more ONS.

I worry for our children too, if it wasn't for them not sure I would have the energy to see this through.

Lying is so much harder than the truth, why can they not see this.
Hugs back to you x


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

gemjo said:


> Yeah we are living a similar path. Married seventeen years on Saturday, I found out he cheated years after the act, only difference is, when faced with poly he confessed to two more ONS.
> 
> I worry for our children too, if it wasn't for them not sure I would have the energy to see this through.
> 
> ...


Yes, the lying is the killer!

First time I threatened poly I got the ONS was a BJ. He had been telling me for a month he just kissed a girl.

A year later I threaten again, he tells me he actually knew the girl. He had been telling me it was a stranger he never saw again. This was far from the truth. 

I called his bluff, went thru with the poly and he failed.

So, there's more I still don't know and at this point I can't imagine I'm gonna get.

He's rather continue to lie and see me in pain than own up and be truthful. I can't believe I've been with this man for two decades! 

Bad day today, I feel the struggling.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

hurtingbadly said:


> Yes, the lying is the killer!
> 
> First time I threatened poly I got the ONS was a BJ. He had been telling me for a month he just kissed a girl.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you are having a bad day, I know you feel the struggling. It's the sh1ttest thing to be dealing with.

Not knowing the complete truth, or feeling like you don't have the whole truth is insult to injury. They have the control, they have the power to enlighten us, but maybe choose not to.

IMO there are two reasons for them not fully disclosing, one is they can't bear to tell us everything in all it's true glory for fear of it being the straw that brakes the camels back, or because they can't bear to see us in any more pain. They believe on some misguided level that they can save us some further pain. I can live with the pain of truth and confession, but I cannot live with lies! No matter How much the lies might hurt me in the short term.....truth is preferred any day over further secrets or omissions.

Right now I am trying to figure if my gut feelings about my H last ONS are correct in that he would have taken this further. She was a colleague, they continued to flirt after the drunken fumble which ended up with him staying the rest of the night in her hotel room..they didn't have intercourse because they fell asleep, but the intention was obviously there as he asked to go into her room, and she obliged. He has answered my questions, they touched each other and kissed but he lost his erection and they both fell asleep....they had been drinking till about 5 am. OW has confirmed most of this also. So back in work they have a couple days of embarrassment and then she says 'are you not talking to me?' the flirting starts and he asked her "do you want to meet up again?" 

He says as soon as he said it he regretted it. They both did have a chat having a cig outside work and both agreed the flirting had to stop as they both loved their spouses! (God I feel so bloody lucky). 

But I was already suspicious and weeks down the line read an email that he sent to her first thing in the morning asking if she was ok,.....he says her dad had cancer and they had talked about it the day before, not exclusively, but in the office, with others.

I think my H had feelings for this woman, he denies this totally...I think he's either lying or in denial! why ask if she wanted to meet up again? Why continue to flirt? And why continue to have personal contact with someone who you have had a ONS with if you don't want things to progress?

Am I wrong to think what I think? My H seems to think I have no grounds for thinking he had feelings for her...he says he had no feelings for her what so ever. 

By the way, she was a definite down grade!! I went to her home to look at her, to see whatbhe chose over me and his children, and not only was she a hard faced baggage, she looked like a hod carrier!


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

I'm not even sure what "hard faced baggage" is or a "hod carrier" for that matter - but I'm pretty sure that describes the OW my H had his EA with!!! It just sounds about right...
I think your H was/is in an EA... It certainly doesn't seem to matter what they look like - the OW all start out the same - they confide personal things to your H to get the emotional connection going - 
from there its a slippery slope to a PA. I hope you find strength and comfort here - it helped me a lot.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Sometimes people can make the same silly mistake over and again.

Hopefully he has learned his lesson.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

Sadly, sometimes the only thing they learn is how to hide it better next time. But I truly hope for your sake that he is truly so scared of loosing you that he would never risk it again!!


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

brokenhearted2 said:


> I'm not even sure what "hard faced baggage" is or a "hod carrier" for that matter - but I'm pretty sure that describes the OW my H had his EA with!!! It just sounds about right...
> I think your H was/is in an EA... It certainly doesn't seem to matter what they look like - the OW all start out the same - they confide personal things to your H to get the emotional connection going -
> from there its a slippery slope to a PA. I hope you find strength and comfort here - it helped me a lot.


A hard faced baggage, is a term used to describe someone hard faced and a hod carrier is a bloke who carries bricks on his shoulder on a construction site :smthumbup:

So I sat outside her house to get a look at her and she realised who I was when she was returning home with her young son and dog after a Sunday morning walk. I pulled up at her side, wound the window down and she came over, asked if I was X and said "give me a munite while I sort these out, the son and the dog, and I'll come and talk to you.......she was way too calm....I'd be sh1tting myself in her shoes!

Really do think my H would have gone on further with this woman. He had two other ONS, I didn't know about any until the past year....and I can safely say I believe both were just sexual....so why do I feel differently about this last one? Because my gut seems to know something more, and I trust my gut! Another thing, some weeks after this last ONS I checked his history on laptop, and he had searched for this woman on 192, which shows address . Also searched for her on Facebook.....when I asked him at the time he denied it was him who has searched for her and blamed a colleague for using his laptop. He has since admitted he had searched for her on Facebook, he said because he was curious....about her husband!? This also tells me more to this than he is willing to tell me.

Maybe it would still have been about sex, maybe he just needed to feel wanted and I was distracted with our 4 kids....he wasn't getting attention from me in a good way, but then I wasn't getting anything 'good' from him either over the past few years. No excuse to go outside the marriage though.

I think he realises now, I trust he won't do anything like this again....but I can't move on until I'm happy I have it all!

I know those of you who have been in my shoes would feel the same as me.

Off for our weekend away, 17 year anniversary on Saturday. Wonder if we'll make it to 18


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Sometimes people can make the same silly mistake over and again.
> 
> Hopefully he has learned his lesson.


I do believe in my heart that he has seen me almost break in two, he now knows how much I love him and isn't it sad that he never really understood before how much I loved him? 

So, I don't believe he will put himself in a situation that can ever lead to him cheating again. I don't even believe he would want to cheat again, he saw what little he got from it, how much heartache he has caused me, and the almost loss of his family. .....and there are still No guarantees we will make it with all the will in the world.

Silly mistake = lose wife


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

brokenhearted2 said:


> Sadly, sometimes the only thing they learn is how to hide it better next time. But I truly hope for your sake that he is truly so scared of loosing you that he would never risk it again!!


Yeah I think he now realises this.....but I really need it to be he just simply doesn't ever want to cheat on me again, and not because he's too scared I find out.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

Yes, you're absolutely right - it's not about getting caught - you want him to never WANT to cheat again.
Men seem to have the ability to compartmentalize - he probably really thought/felt that none of it had anything to do with you. 
If you don't mind my asking, what did the OW say to you? WOW. 
I never got to face the OW in my case - she's across the country, thank goodness. But if this is any help to you - her "trick" was she made my H feel so needed - she never let up on her sad tales of woe and helplessness and a husband who didn't "get" her - ugh - men can be so gullible. My H said, she never argued with him (really?!) didn't react, was encouraging! and she NEEDED to talk to him to get his great opinions and advice...catnip for the male folk, I guess. Sadly, I always felt that I looked up to my H and asked his opinion etc... It's just when you live with someone and raise kids together, it's unlikely that you'll never argue! That's the "fog bubble" everyone talks about on here. Everything seems so perfect in their world. Duh. Hope you resolve some stuff this weekend. Best to you.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

gemjo said:


> I'm sorry you are having a bad day, I know you feel the struggling. It's the sh1ttest thing to be dealing with.
> 
> Not knowing the complete truth, or feeling like you don't have the whole truth is insult to injury. They have the control, they have the power to enlighten us, but maybe choose not to.
> 
> ...


I swear our stories are so similar. 

Well, the ONS my WS had actually turned out to be a coworker at another location. She moved away a year later, but five years after the ONS my WS sent her a message he was coming into her town for work and hoped to see her. So, I'm pretty sure he was with her again. Not to mention, he FAILED that poly question. What kills me was the second time he saw her we were experiencing some of our better years, kids were starting to become more independent... 

So yes, it makes no sense what your WS is saying. I have the same thoughts. If you felt so badly about it why would you contact her again? I think they'd be wanting to stay as far away as they possibly can.

I'm also looking at two other former coworkers... One, I found an inappropriate message from her and he had tried to plan meeting with her while out of town. I caught that one when it happened. Course, years later we run into her and they act all weird. 

The other he admits was an EA, but won't admit to it being a PA.

Keep in mind he's a huge liar. He still tells me the ONS was only a BJ, but somehow he failed the intercourse question on the poly and I magically got HPV after we'd been married thirteen years.

Just typing all this makes me ill. He also gave me a fake name of Erika at one point. Now I wonder if that was yet another girl. 

What are your plans then for your anniversary?
Personally, we'll be reaching eighteen years early next year. I don't want to celebrate any anniversaries. I didn't celebrate seventeen, either. In my mind all anniversaries since he cheated on me are void, including our big ten year anniversary trip. It was a lie. If we work this out he'll be renewing his vows, then I'll start over with anniversaries like it's our first year. These past years were fake, I don't count them.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Wanted to add, unlike most on this board...

All three girls were much younger than me. ONS girl was 19, I was 32. Two other girls were in their 20s. So, this has been an added pain for me. I was very self conscious after my two c-sections and nursing both. It's done a real number on me mentally.


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## So Sad Lady (Aug 31, 2012)

Hey, Gemjo. Haven't been coming to the forum for several weeks, for my own sanity. 
The one difference I see in this thread, as opposed to the others - and to your comments to me, is that you appear to finally believe that you have the full truth...Or the most of what you can get, to the point where you are 'comfortable' with it. 
You are questioning if your gut instinct is intact, if you're doing the right thing, etc. You obviously will get a lot of different advice here, and I'm certainly not an expert because I'm also in R, but have questions that are leading me nowhere.
But - if you truly feel he is remorseful, if you truly want to go forward and try to find that trust again, you should. 
One thing I noticed though, is that you said in one post that he knows he is not forgiven. And this is where I have been struggling, and one reason I haven't come on to this website.
For myself, I could not find a way to forgive. I would try, but I couldn't. How can we forgive the person that is supposed to keep us "safe" in life, when he is the one that nearly destroyed us....
I still struggle, if I think about it. But last week we had a huge blowout - same fight - same everything....I started it, and realized something the next day.
It is done. 
What has been done has been done. He has apologized, I cannot keep asking for apologies forever. He is remorseful...it is not fair for me to throw it at him again and again... And with this realization, I have found that I need to forgive him and go on. I thought that forgiveness was something I would eventually do for HIM, but it's not. I forgave because it's something I needed to do for myself. 
If you want to work on things and go forward, that's great. Trust is tough after such a heartbreak. But you will never find that trust if you don't find it in your heart to forgive.
Maybe it's too soon for you to forgive... Understandably. But it is the next step, if you truly want to move on. 
My 2 cents only. But, like everyone else here, there's no right or wrong when your world has been turned upside down... we're all amateurs here. 
ugh.


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## LearningLifeQDay (Oct 20, 2012)

Hello Gemjo. I thought it was always 'three strikes and you're out.' Oh, that's baseball. Sorry...But in a relationship? You're a very, very nice person to be that forgiving. Simply, you can still touch and caress him knowing he's touched another woman? If you can do that you, I guess there's hope. Personally, I have another opinion, but...


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

Thinking of you and hoping your weekend was one of healing and moving forward. I'm guessing that you are "across the pond," so to speak, and it's strange that our common heartache brings us here, but maybe it helps that someone out there is thinking of you and wishing you all good things. I hope you will let us know how it is going.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

brokenhearted2 said:


> Yes, you're absolutely right - it's not about getting caught - you want him to never WANT to cheat again.
> Men seem to have the ability to compartmentalize - he probably really thought/felt that none of it had anything to do with you.
> If you don't mind my asking, what did the OW say to you? WOW.
> I never got to face the OW in my case - she's across the country, thank goodness. But if this is any help to you - her "trick" was she made my H feel so needed - she never let up on her sad tales of woe and helplessness and a husband who didn't "get" her - ugh - men can be so gullible. My H said, she never argued with him (really?!) didn't react, was encouraging! and she NEEDED to talk to him to get his great opinions and advice...catnip for the male folk, I guess. Sadly, I always felt that I looked up to my H and asked his opinion etc... It's just when you live with someone and raise kids together, it's unlikely that you'll never argue! That's the "fog bubble" everyone talks about on here. Everything seems so perfect in their world. Duh. Hope you resolve some stuff this weekend. Best to you.


It was a works conference, a kiss outside a club and later back at the hotel they both went into her room. They fumbled round for a bit, no penetration as they were both very drunk and fell asleep. I believe this as my H told me this knowing he was having a polygraph and he knew he would be out the door if i didn't have the complete truth before hand....so i got DD 2.

I drove to her home and sat outside, fully intended to knock on her door, but couldn't bring myself to destroy her H and child. So I decided to email her. 

I emailed her to start with, and she very quickly replied asking if she could phone me. I didn't want to speak to at that time, and to be honest, she just replied so calmly that she threw me off balance a bit. I emailed back saying i wanted the full truth of what happened between them, i wanted my H admission verifying i guess, and I wanted her to know that i knew, and yes, that i could blow her world apart if i chose to. I wanted to see her sh!t herself and beg for mercy if i'm honest...i wanted her to be truly sorry. 

I got the bare minimum from her, no remorse, just calculated wording, a threat she'd informed the police that I was harassing her...for gods sake! So I emailed her one last time and asked again for the full truth about what happened and i would leave her alone and not disclose to her H. She replied, and again, very calculated, and careful wording (I expect in case I printed emails and sent to her H)

She blamed my H for everything, and had the nerve to say she wouldn't have let anything 'bad' happen! So its obviously not bad that they are both married with families and they are in a hotel room doing things they shouldn't have been. She said my H made all the moves, when they kissed and later on before they went into her room. So I guess she wasn't up for it?

I believe my H has been honest and he's told me more or less what happened between the two of them....where as she has played it down and implied it was something and nothing. He has gone into detail about everything that happened, at my request....it was painful but necessary...my imagination is much worse than reality!

I wanted to see what she looked like so i drove to her house again and sat across the road. When i saw a woman walking down the road with a child and a dog and she stopped at her house and was looking in the boot of the car I turned the car round so it was facing into her drive...wound my window down, she guessed who i was. When she said she'd come out and talk to me after putting son and dog in the house i told her not to bother, i said I've seen what i came to see..and i drove away!

What would have been the point in having her sat in my car lying to me, making out like nothing really happened....like my H is going to lie and make the stuff up! I felt better seeing she wasn't good looking....my H must have had very thick beer goggles on that night!

Problem right now, I feel she has gotten away with this, and i want to punish her.....but that feels wrong to me on some deep level. I want to tell her H, but again it feels wrong.....but there is something in me that just doesn't want her to get away with this without consequence. 

I think I have tracked down an email for her H, and I almost pressed 'sent' and thought better of it.

She told me in email she has told him (I don't think she did) about the ONS, although if she did, her version would be they had a kiss.... 

She told me that he has forgiven her and they are working on their marriage... don't know if I believe that either!

I can't quite reconcile myself to the idea of emailing some guy out of the blue to tell him his wife had a ONS with my H. I'm also worried about the consequences of emailing him. Maybe he does already know....maybe he wont care, maybe he's a cheater...maybe he's a maniac. 

Don't know what to do!!


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

hurtingbadly said:


> I swear our stories are so similar.
> 
> Well, the ONS my WS had actually turned out to be a coworker at another location. She moved away a year later, but five years after the ONS my WS sent her a message he was coming into her town for work and hoped to see her. So, I'm pretty sure he was with her again. Not to mention, he FAILED that poly question. What kills me was the second time he saw her we were experiencing some of our better years, kids were starting to become more independent...
> 
> ...


You are very strong in being able to try to work through this with your H when you sound pretty sure he hasn't disclosed everything to you. That would be a deal breaker for me...but that's me, i need to know the ins and outs of a cats ars.e!

When i don't feel i fully know something it doesn't make sense so i go on and on and on till it makes sense...however, we did have false R for a year....it was only the impending doom of the poly which made him come clean. I wonder why they don't just get it all out, once and for all, especially if they can see how hard we are trying to move forward. Surely they now know they can trust us with their truth and secrets.

Did you ever contact the OW, or suspected OW? Maybe you could contact them and blag that your H has confessed they cheated...that way they might tell you more than he has??

We had a good weekend, but with the obvious triggers and talks...this will be our life now for the foreseeable future, and he knows it. We still have really good times and we get on very well, but it is all tainted now....his cheats are never far from my mind, not ever! We seem stronger in many respects.

Gutted that last night he got on TAMS and was an hour into posting when F#*! his message vanished into cyber world, never to be read! I so needed to read his words. Hopefully he will try again.

I truly hope you work through this and soon your H will tell you what you need to hear. x


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

So Sad Lady said:


> Hey, Gemjo. Haven't been coming to the forum for several weeks, for my own sanity.
> The one difference I see in this thread, as opposed to the others - and to your comments to me, is that you appear to finally believe that you have the full truth...Or the most of what you can get, to the point where you are 'comfortable' with it.
> You are questioning if your gut instinct is intact, if you're doing the right thing, etc. You obviously will get a lot of different advice here, and I'm certainly not an expert because I'm also in R, but have questions that are leading me nowhere.
> But - if you truly feel he is remorseful, if you truly want to go forward and try to find that trust again, you should.
> ...


I agree with you completely, and on some level, now that I feel his remorse is genuine, and I also feel I have the answers to my many questions forgiving him is the next step. It isn't something I've thought I'll never be able to forgive, but in order to forgive I need to know as much as possible that I have the full account of his cheating. I can't forgive him, and he cant forgive himself if we don't start at the bottom and work our way back up..starting at ground zero and accepting what he has done and why he has done it is essential for me. Having the complete truth is an absolute must before forgiveness can begin.

I feel I am almost there, and feeling more positive, but still really sad at the fact i will always know what i know.

You are right, forgiveness is for ourselves as much as for the betrayer.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

LearningLifeQDay said:


> Hello Gemjo. I thought it was always 'three strikes and you're out.' Oh, that's baseball. Sorry...But in a relationship? You're a very, very nice person to be that forgiving. Simply, you can still touch and caress him knowing he's touched another woman? If you can do that you, I guess there's hope. Personally, I have another opinion, but...


Yeah i never thought in a million years i would be able to touch my husband again knowing he'd touched another woman.....but i know our history and i know where he went wrong and why...

If he'd cheated on me once and I'd found out about it, he would have been either thrown out there and then....or made clear that was your one mistake, do it again and we are finished for ever.

It didn't happen like that though. I never found out he had any of the 3 ONS until much later. I found out the one in 2008 first and then a year after he admitted to 2 more ONS, one in 2005 and the last one Feb 2011....as he was sitting a poly at the end of that week....and he knew if he failed he'd be gone.

He would never have gotten the opportunity to cheat 3 times if i'd learned about the first one! 

This is where consequences come into play......this is why cheaters should go home and confess to their first betrayal and beg for forgiveness and show true remorse...the chances of doing it again if they* love their spouse* are very low....they have seen the pain and devastation their selfish act has caused.

So, my H knows without a shadow of doubt, if i even suspected him of cheating again.....he would be divorced.....end of!


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

brokenhearted2 said:


> Thinking of you and hoping your weekend was one of healing and moving forward. I'm guessing that you are "across the pond," so to speak, and it's strange that our common heartache brings us here, but maybe it helps that someone out there is thinking of you and wishing you all good things. I hope you will let us know how it is going.


Thank you for your kind thoughts. Yes we are across the pond.

Had a lovely long weekend in a lovely little seaside town. My H has done everything possible to do the right thing and say the right thing, and i trust his intentions are good and all for the benefit of making me feel safe and loved in the fallout of recent admissions.

Still had triggers and upsets, sat for almost 4 hours not talking on the way home because i'm still so sad...but it was still a nice break and good to be on our own....my H was fully aware of my sadness and keeps trying to help me, and did actually try to post on TAM last night while i was having a bath....when i came into the room he was typing frantically and then an hours worth of his feelings went into cyber space....it disappeared as he hit submit! Such a shame, he was really upset too! it would really have done me good to have read what he had written....hopefully he will try again.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

gemjo said:


> Yeah i never thought in a million years i would be able to touch my husband again knowing he'd touched another woman.....but i know our history and i know where he went wrong and why...
> 
> If he'd cheated on me once and I'd found out about it, he would have been either thrown out there and then....or made clear that was your one mistake, do it again and we are finished for ever.
> 
> ...


I know what you mean. I found out about the ONS eight years after the fact. How do you even deal with something like that so many years later?!? 

I agree about the importance of confessing when it happens. I think it helps prevent further cheating.

Like I said earlier I believe there's more I don't know about. Even he will admit he didn't understand proper boundaries. It took going thru this nightmare for him to come to those realizations. 

So, even though I know he's still holding back info I do believe he sees what damage this has caused me, him, our marriage, our family. I would hope that would be a huge deterrent for future transgressions.

Then again I've been a fool before...


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

gemjo said:


> You are very strong in being able to try to work through this with your H when you sound pretty sure he hasn't disclosed everything to you. That would be a deal breaker for me...but that's me, i need to know the ins and outs of a cats ars.e!
> 
> When i don't feel i fully know something it doesn't make sense so i go on and on and on till it makes sense...however, we did have false R for a year....it was only the impending doom of the poly which made him come clean. I wonder why they don't just get it all out, once and for all, especially if they can see how hard we are trying to move forward. Surely they now know they can trust us with their truth and secrets.
> 
> ...


Glad you had a nice weekend. 

I'm not strong at all. I cry intermittently throughout everyday. If I was strong I'd have filed for divorce by now.

His cheating was a deal breaker. That's why I feel our marriage is no longer legit and why I will not celebrate anymore anniversaries. I'm struggling and only here because of our children. The continued lies are just more insult to injury.

I did try to contact the OW. She never replied. I sent another message and she ignored that one as well. I tried to speak to the other coworker that was involved, he helped cover for my WS and gave me the fake story I was first told. Since then he has ignored a further request to get the truth after my WS failed his poly. 

Everyone lies to me. It stinks.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

hurtingbadly said:


> Glad you had a nice weekend.
> 
> I'm not strong at all. I cry intermittently throughout everyday. If I was strong I'd have filed for divorce by now.
> 
> ...



Don't give up on trying to get to the truth, so ok, the OW ignored your emails..try again, this time tell her your h has told you everything and you want her to verify by giving a full account of what they did.....tell her you will leave her alone if she does this one thing for you. Do you know where she lives?..can you find out? what about the ow you suspect but don't know for sure?..can you email them or find them some way?

This is a hideous limbo and your H needs to know fully that he is torturing you. He probably can not face you with more bad news, but the reality is, he must now choose between being open and frank with you about his cheating, or move on and allow you to get over him.

Does he actually tell you that he has told you everything? or is he is just quiet and ashamed....omitting to tell you more?

How does he explain you contracting HPV?

We can all be paranoid, but facts are facts......HPV in a relationship over 10 years? He needs to talk to you and face his shame it will be a huge weight off the both of you once he finds the words. Have you tried doing this by email so he isn't literally facing you?

Walking on a beach holding hands....he doesn't have to look you in the eye? 

Keep seeking the truth, you need it for your sanity, but in all honesty, once you have done everything you can, if he doesn't come clean, you should ask him to leave.

x


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## megmg (Sep 30, 2012)

sepaking from a bit of experience would definitley take gemjo advice and try and get him to talk via email /text / walk on beach if he doesnt have to look you in the eye it is easier to tell the truth the biggest hurt to oneself is seeing the hurt in Spouses eyes when you come clean


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

gemjo said:


> Don't give up on trying to get to the truth, so ok, the OW ignored your emails..try again, this time tell her your h has told you everything and you want her to verify by giving a full account of what they did.....tell her you will leave her alone if she does this one thing for you. Do you know where she lives?..can you find out? what about the ow you suspect but don't know for sure?..can you email them or find them some way?
> 
> This is a hideous limbo and your H needs to know fully that he is torturing you. He probably can not face you with more bad news, but the reality is, he must now choose between being open and frank with you about his cheating, or move on and allow you to get over him.
> 
> ...


I was very nice in my message to the OW given the circumstances. Asked her if she could verify what I've been told so I could have some closure. I asked if she could find it in her heart to help ease mine a little. And I heard nothing... Really, no surprise there as she did sleep with a married man with two small children knowingly. Not exactly the highest of morals there... She lives far away, but I do know her place of business. Personally, I think WS was with her a second time five years later when he went out of town there on business. 

The other two girls I suspect something may have happened are both not very nice people. Again, I feel I will get no information from them. One of them he was doing drugs with. I knew her and she would never talk to me, she was a complete b*&%h. This girl he admits was crossing the line. Says he never touched her, but he was closer to her than he should have been. He will not admit to anything with the other girl. 

He tells me I have everything now. He told me that before and it was a lie.

He can't explain the HPV. It really doesn't match up to what he has admitted to. He says his only sexual contact outside our marriage was a BJ in 2003, I tested positive for it in 2008 - thirteen years into our marriage. By 2009 it was clear. He saw the OW in 2008, but after my test result so again, that makes no sense either. Personally, I think it was from one of the other two girls I suspect. 

Very happy things are going a bit better for you, I wish my WH would get the importance of coming clean.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

megmg said:


> sepaking from a bit of experience would definitley take gemjo advice and try and get him to talk via email /text / walk on beach if he doesnt have to look you in the eye it is easier to tell the truth the biggest hurt to oneself is seeing the hurt in Spouses eyes when you come clean


We've done most of our "talking" thru emails and texts. We can't seem to talk together without him shutting down or becoming defensive and mad. It was by text I found out that he knew the girl. For a year he told me she as a stranger that he never saw again.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

Regarding the HPV......have you ever seen the doctor and asked out right, could this have been dormant for x number of years?

Its just, I have read that it can be dormant for decades.....in which case, if either you or your H had had sexual relations with even one other person before you got together, then it could have been from then.

Just thought I would throw this into the equation.

Probably best thing is to get a completely bonifide answer from a professional. At least it would be one less thing to worry about.

Or maybe you already did?


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

gemjo said:


> Regarding the HPV......have you ever seen the doctor and asked out right, could this have been dormant for x number of years?
> 
> Its just, I have read that it can be dormant for decades.....in which case, if either you or your H had had sexual relations with even one other person before you got together, then it could have been from then.
> 
> ...


I've asked about five different docs and they all gave me the run around. Truth is, nobody really knows or wants to be the one to say it. I kept a yeast infection (TMI) for a good year, if not more that I couldn't get rid of. I'm pretty sure it was because he was having a PA with his coworker. The HPV didn't come from the ONS girl.


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## megmg (Sep 30, 2012)

We're both struggling today, had late conversation last night (3 hours sleep again) about my first ONS, and the fact a few weeks after my drunken fumble I ended working in a new office I was setting up for work, she turned up to do some work of her own and I kissed her in a room where I was laying cables, it didn't do anything for me or her i dont think and quickly ended with her leaving and I continued to work. So feel like we've stepped back a bit or maybe forward? Don't know, know I feel like **** though and the dark room is calling for me to curl up into it or could for a long drive and blast music to let my emotions fall out of me for what a **** I have been but just opened 2nd bottle of wine so maybe drive is for another day.

Crappy days I just want her to feel i want her and love her.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

megmg said:


> We're both struggling today, had late conversation last night (3 hours sleep again) about my first ONS, and the fact a few weeks after my drunken fumble I ended working in a new office I was setting up for work, she turned up to do some work of her own and I kissed her in a room where I was laying cables, it didn't do anything for me or her i dont think and quickly ended with her leaving and I continued to work. So feel like we've stepped back a bit or maybe forward? Don't know, know I feel like **** though and the dark room is calling for me to curl up into it or could for a long drive and blast music to let my emotions fall out of me for what a **** I have been but just opened 2nd bottle of wine so maybe drive is for another day.
> 
> Crappy days I just want her to feel i want her and love her.


Sorry things are still bad. I think they will be for all of us for awhile. I had a trigger last night, it made WS mad. We did sleep in same bed, but never said goodnight to each other. He got up and went to work this morning without a goodbye. We get further and further apart. I don't know if I want to be with someone who would do these things to me, he was supposed to protect me. Then again he's all I've ever known. We've been together over twenty years, married almost eighteen. I don't know if I can start over.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

hurtingbadly said:


> Sorry things are still bad. I think they will be for all of us for awhile. I had a trigger last night, it made WS mad. We did sleep in same bed, but never said goodnight to each other. He got up and went to work this morning without a goodbye. We get further and further apart. I don't know if I want to be with someone who would do these things to me, he was supposed to protect me. Then again he's all I've ever known. We've been together over twenty years, married almost eighteen. I don't know if I can start over.


Of course you can start over, if it comes to it......but hopefully your H will do the right thing and fully disclose. It isn't easy, I know, when they give us the truth either, but at least they have told the truth finally.

What triggered you? And the reason he's getting mad, IMO, is he is still feeling shame and what he's done to you, and very possibly still holding things back that he is guilty of.

It sucks that he just can't realise you just need to hear the truth from his mouth and you will probably step back for a short time....whilst you deal with it, and then, and only then you will be able to move forward. You will both feel better for the truth being out in the long term.

((( hugs)))


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

hurtingbadly said:


> Sorry things are still bad. I think they will be for all of us for awhile. I had a trigger last night, it made WS mad. We did sleep in same bed, but never said goodnight to each other. He got up and went to work this morning without a goodbye. We get further and further apart. I don't know if I want to be with someone who would do these things to me, he was supposed to protect me. Then again he's all I've ever known. We've been together over twenty years, married almost eighteen. I don't know if I can start over.


. The anger and getting mad at trigger points does sound like guilt, I know before I disclosed I sent very hurtful messages to W venting anger and frustration and blaming W for things. Maybe if your H came on this site and saw your postings or you printed them off for him to read when he is alone he may understand a bit more how you are feeling and that you feel you cannot get closure as you still have mistrust, your grieving for your marriage it's like the death of a close one, you need closure before you can move forward with your life both of you, I know this site has helped my W and me to understand what is needed to move forward, telling the truth hurts when you have hidden it for so long, probably not as much as hearing it but it still hurts to tell someone you have been unfaithful to them no matter how much you love them. Maybe he thinks that by not disclosing he is protecting you and himself from that hurt but that is not helping you. He needs to understand that you are with him still because you love him, you know what he has done and still love him so how can it hurt you both anymore. To move forward it needs to be clean. He can see the damage that he has caused by what he has told you so far, he needs to understand that the hurt left is because you don't know not because of what you do know. Try this in a calm way there will be still trigger points for both of you on this, certain songs, program's on tv etc when the subject of unfaithfulness is raised and you both know what the other may be thinking at that point but the more you discuss this (hopefully in a calm manner) then the quicker you can resolve, once again good luck and my(our) thoughts are with you.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

gemjo said:


> . The anger and getting mad at trigger points does sound like guilt, I know before I disclosed I sent very hurtful messages to W venting anger and frustration and blaming W for things. Maybe if your H came on this site and saw your postings or you printed them off for him to read when he is alone he may understand a bit more how you are feeling and that you feel you cannot get closure as you still have mistrust, your grieving for your marriage it's like the death of a close one, you need closure before you can move forward with your life both of you, I know this site has helped my W and me to understand what is needed to move forward, telling the truth hurts when you have hidden it for so long, probably not as much as hearing it but it still hurts to tell someone you have been unfaithful to them no matter how much you love them. Maybe he thinks that by not disclosing he is protecting you and himself from that hurt but that is not helping you. He needs to understand that you are with him still because you love him, you know what he has done and still love him so how can it hurt you both anymore. To move forward it needs to be clean. He can see the damage that he has caused by what he has told you so far, he needs to understand that the hurt left is because you don't know not because of what you do know. Try this in a calm way there will be still trigger points for both of you on this, certain songs, program's on tv etc when the subject of unfaithfulness is raised and you both know what the other may be thinking at that point but the more you discuss this (hopefully in a calm manner) then the quicker you can resolve, once again good luck and my(our) thoughts are with you.


That was actually posted from megmg but still logged in to gemjo.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

hurtingbadly said:


> Sorry things are still bad. I think they will be for all of us for awhile. I had a trigger last night, it made WS mad. We did sleep in same bed, but never said goodnight to each other. He got up and went to work this morning without a goodbye. We get further and further apart. I don't know if I want to be with someone who would do these things to me, he was supposed to protect me. Then again he's all I've ever known. We've been together over twenty years, married almost eighteen. I don't know if I can start over.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

How are you doing Gemjo? Any progress In this past week? I hope you are feeling better. It's hard around the holidays, isn't it? Take good are of yourself!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

gemjo said:


> Of course you can start over, if it comes to it......but hopefully your H will do the right thing and fully disclose. It isn't easy, I know, when they give us the truth either, but at least they have told the truth finally.
> 
> What triggered you? And the reason he's getting mad, IMO, is he is still feeling shame and what he's done to you, and very possibly still holding things back that he is guilty of.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think his anger is from guilt of knowing he is still lying to me.
He also did the blameshifting thing whenever I confronted him on a suspicion.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

brokenhearted2 said:


> How are you doing Gemjo? Any progress In this past week? I hope you are feeling better. It's hard around the holidays, isn't it? Take good are of yourself!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi brokenhearted......I'm still having good days, then a bad day...and on it goes. 

Think I am happier in myself that I feel I have the answers to my many questions, and H is answering them all.....he seems to be really trying, and this makes all the difference.

I am still very hyper sensitive to things like him being late home from work, even when I know he's stuck in traffic...or in a meeting with the boss......_'even when I know'_ this is what gets to me......i don't _actually_ really know anything, but I do trust him when he tells me where he is....but then I catch myself on and ask myself 'but why are you believing him?...he lies and cheats with colleagues...he could easily be lying now!'

This is hard to deal with....but ultimately I do trust him, I just want him to see from my new perspective that he needs to find ways for his phone to not run out of power if he's going to be stuck in traffic for an hour and a half, or his meetings with boss need some form of confirmation....email or something....

How are you?


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

gemjo said:


> Hi brokenhearted......I'm still having good days, then a bad day...and on it goes.
> 
> Think I am happier in myself that I feel I have the answers to my many questions, and H is answering them all.....he seems to be really trying, and this makes all the difference.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

Eh. Up and down. I think from having read so many posts here on this forum, that there is only one conclusion... A husband can be very much in love with his wife and have sex with other women, and it truly means nothing to them. The OW should be seen as pitiful creatures, putting up with seconds and being used. I think for most men ,it's no more than a different form of masturbation. Sorry to be graphic ! But really - maybe they get bored , and they justify it. Sexual fidelity has much more importance to women. I don't think it matters a whole lot to men. If they feel they will never be caught. Also, in your case, I think the fact that your H couldn't "go the distance" with these loose women, means he had some guilt and probably felt really bad about what he was doing- not letting him off the hook,but I bet he does have some morals, and just couldn't go through with it. Maybe that will be enough for you to forgive him and move forward. But what ever you decide, your life is forever changed. and that is truly the sad part of it all. I hope he has seen the light!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

brokenhearted2 said:


> Eh. Up and down. I think from having read so many posts here on this forum, that there is only one conclusion... *A husband can be very much in love with his wife and have sex with other women, and it truly means nothing to them*. The OW should be seen as pitiful creatures, putting up with seconds and being used. *I think for most men ,it's no more than a different form of masturbation*. Sorry to be graphic ! But really - *maybe they get bored , and they justify it.* Sexual fidelity has much more importance to women. *I don't think it matters a whole lot to men*. *If they feel they will never be caught*. Also, in your case, I think the fact that your H couldn't "go the distance" with these loose women, means he had some guilt and probably felt really bad about what he was doing- not letting him off the hook,but I bet he does have some morals, and just couldn't go through with it. Maybe that will be enough for you to forgive him and move forward. But what ever you decide, your life is forever changed. and that is truly the sad part of it all. I hope he has seen the light!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for your post.....completely agree with what I have highlighted above.

I can also see what you are saying "*the fact that your H couldn't "go the distance" with these loose women, means he had some guilt and probably felt really bad about what he was doing*" He was really very drunk though on two of these times.

I don't think he had much in the way of morals when he tried to hook up with these women after his drunken fumbled sexual attempts. Later, when sober in work. I try to explain to H that this, for me, is worse than him hooking up when completely drunk. 

It tells me he wanted to try again, finish what he started, he didn't have remorse or too much guilt or he would never have gone near them again. But he did. 

Not in a good place the last few days.......and we're off to London this weekend.....this is where his last ONS happened...and just seeing a photo on TV of London Bridge lit up at night sends me over the edge! He sent me a photo on his mobile out of his hotel window of this very picture.....so its already triggering me. 

This last ONS bothers me....he wont admit there was more to it than a drunken sexual fumble, a bit of flirting afterwards in work for a couple of weeks, and he also admitted he foolishly asked OW "do you want to meet up again?" to which I can only imagine she either turned him down or they did meet up (short term PA?)....but he isn't going to admit to that! 

I was suspicious when he got back off that trip...but wouldn't believe he would cheat on me, so I shoved it down and ignored my gut to some extent. 

But a couple of months down the line I looked at his phone, and started reading his email messages....there was one to this ONS woman where he's asking her if "she's ok this morning" cant recall the rest of the short message but it was enough for me to panic and note her name and I even questioned him about her. He told me he was checking she was ok as the day before she'd told colleagues her dad had cancer. Sounds to me like he was offering to be a shoulder to cry on....fishing? opening a door?doesn't matter what he says, IMO he wanted more from her, he liked her on some level.....but he just keeps on denying when to me this screams he had feelings for her.

You see back then my H never emailed me or text me during the day....I would even complain to him about this, he always said he was too busy! He obviously wasn't too busy as I've seen loads of emails to and from colleagues that were not necessary for work at that time.....he just didn't have time for me, and wasn't prepared to make any. Instead he wanted to focus his spare moments on other people who were obviously more important in his life than me. This all hurts so much.

It isn't a deal breaker.....I don't think! but its harassing my sleep and thoughts and when this starts there is no stopping it until i can be convinced I have the full 100% truth.


Think this is where re-booking the poly might help me out.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

It has pretty much become the deal breaker........I couldn't feel any worse than I do right now.

He treated me terribly, he cheated on me when I trusted he could never do such a damaging and terrible thing to me.

I truly foolishly thought he loved me more than anything in this world.....what a fool I've been.

And I feel so ashamed right now.....of him mostly, but of myself too.......why have I not ended this sham of a marriage? Because that's all it was and ever will be. A sham.

It's so hard, everyone, our children, family, friends, relatives and co workers(on my part) believe we have this amazing marriage.....and it's all a lie and I'm living this lie by not accepting we are all but over.

I don't think I have done anything to deserve this, but be naive in believing this man I gave all my love to, could so easily throw it in the fire.

I'm starting to feel nothing for him. Reality has finally hit home.


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## megmg (Sep 30, 2012)

If its the only thing that can convince you he's telling the truth and does truly love you then book it. X


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

megmg said:


> If its the only thing that can convince you he's telling the truth and does truly love you then book it. X


The deal breaker isn't knowing I have the truth now.......it's living with the reality of what my marriage means....to you, what WE meant to you.

You never really gave me an opportunity to make you feel better, you never really told me you were unhappy with US. So how could I make changes, when I was so busy with our family and work...I didn't know anything was wrong. You should have made some changes before deciding to 'leave' me, and our children on some level. You have shown me how little we must have really meant to you. That is what makes me so sad.

I just remember always asking you to be patient and our time would soon come, the kids would grow up......and they did, and 2 have flown the nest......but you just couldn't wait.

Now I can't even look at you long enough to have a conversation.....so I post here instead.......that makes me sad too.


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## megmg (Sep 30, 2012)

gemjo said:


> The deal breaker isn't knowing I have the truth now.......it's living with the reality of what my marriage means....to you, what WE meant to you.
> 
> You never really gave me an opportunity to make you feel better, you never really told me you were unhappy with US. So how could I make changes, when I was so busy with our family and work...I didn't know anything was wrong. You should have made some changes before deciding to 'leave' me, and our children on some level. You have shown me how little we must have really meant to you. That is what makes me so sad.
> 
> ...


I want you to know you mean the world to me and so do our kids, I too remember you saying to be patient and I should have,

I cry myself to sleep most nights over what I have done to you and breakdown most days when I am on my own, every song on the radio reminds me of you/us. These acts I did we're I think a form of escapism (you know my thoughts on the amount of drugs I was taking at this time so I won't repeat them). I too find it difficult to talk to you as the pain in your eyes and mannerism kill me to know what I have done.

If everyone who knows us think we have something special then we do/did until I ruined a part of it, I truly want to recover that with you or at least part of it (I can live with you in any form but not without you) , when you came onto the balcony in London and said you thought I had jumped as you couldn't see me, we'll the thought crossed my mind that's why I sat in the corner, but what would that have achieved more pain for you and my kids then no I could not do it, the fact that it crossed my mind lets me know how low I/we have come. I miss the electric touch of your hand which I have always had whenever we hold. 

You have always meant the world to me and I have always tried to make you feel special , I tried to tell you I needed to change but i was so dependant on weed and you were so busy and we always had things to do that I just carried on, it wasn't you or the kids that was wrong it was ME.....I was the one who needed to change what I was doing, the acts I did meant nothing to me they were moments of some part of me trying to make myself feel better I suppose, they didn't make me feel better they made me feel worse and so the cycle went on...we still have dreams and still discuss the things we want to do, walking mountains and beaches, bike rides, cottage of our dreams to retire they are all still within reach, and become closer everyday if we can reach for them, i want us to reach for them together, I know they are scarred but want to heal that scar as much as I can, I understand you posting on here as all of the above I could not say to your face at the moment because of the pain that is there. I just want you to know I LOVE YOU. If you can't live with me because of what I have done then I understand, but I will always love you and will never feel anything but, I will not be bitter if we end I will just always be sad that I threw my whole world away on pointless sex acts.

Your husband x


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

gemjo said:


> It has pretty much become the deal breaker........I couldn't feel any worse than I do right now.
> 
> He treated me terribly, he cheated on me when I trusted he could never do such a damaging and terrible thing to me.
> 
> ...


How are you doing today? I have to say your above quote is pretty much where I'm at, too. I've started having intense anxiety again, incredible pain. I don't know how we'll do this... I feel like my life has been wasted on lies. Hugs to you, I know where you're at.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

Hi HB,

Hope you are doing OK?

We have kind of dragged ourselves back out of the black pit of despair....hope that doesn't happen too often, it's like being in Hell!

Had a nice, close weekend, and now it's Monday, back to work and I message H what time will he be home as he makes dinner most evenings......he's going to be late......this is happening all the time, and unavoidable as he is high up position in work...

But it starts to trigger me, even though I am 99.9% sure he would never cheat on me again. Time to think isn't good....... time to think when he's late home from work is really not good!

He needs to find a way to let me know in advance he is going to be late and maybe fwd an email from boss or who ever needs him to stay late....because this I will not be able to deal with.

Stay strong x


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