# Sven's story and introduction



## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

This is my introduction to the forums, in a way. After reading your forums for a couple of weeks, it’s obvious I belong here! This is a wall of text, but I feel compelled to write it all down. Don’t feel obligated to read it all if you don’t want to.

My best friend introduced my wife and I to each other in 1988. We were engaged two weeks later. We married six months after the engagement. Both of us are Christians and lived with our parents’ right up until the day we got married, so we had never lived with another person. I was still a virgin, though she was not (I knew that, and it was not a problem for me.)

Living together for the first time was shocking – there is so much to work on and mediate! Little things like using paper or cloth towels to clean a mirror…is it really a big deal? It is if you’re married. One of the hardest things for me to deal with has been my wife’s preference for sleeping fully dressed and wrapped up in a comforter like a cocoon. I absolutely hate it. For 21 years I’ve had the sheets and blankets all to myself. This was not the way I imagined my married life.

I should point out that I’m a traditionalist about marriage. I kept my virginity until our wedding night. And I do not believe in divorce! The Bible mentions one exception, and I’ll get to that later. But the entire concept of marriage not working was (and is) foreign to me. I’m totally committed to staying with this woman until one of us is planted.

At age 20, I set three goals for my life to reach by 30: Get married, have children and make my age ($30K). I’m blessed to say I hit all three, though the child part took a while. We held off on pregnancy for the first two years, and then began trying. For three years we tried to get pregnant. It’s easy to think “Oh that’s fun!” but sex turned into just another chore. “We haven’t had sex tonight, let’s do it before we fall asleep.” We had sex to the point of killing the joy. But it worked. If I had turned 30 without her being pregnant, I was going to see a doctor, but we made it.

After our first child was born we decided to immediately start on a second. We didn’t want to wait two or three years to start again and have it take another three years. But it happened right away and our two daughters are 13 months apart.

When the children were small, my wife did not respond very well. I can’t really describe it. She was a good mom – attentive to the kids and taking care of them – but she just wasn’t happy with them and would make irrational statements about how a baby “should know not to do that”. When the kids reached school age, my wife just blossomed into a fantastic mom. I think it is because she could actually have two way conversations with them.

When our first child was in second grade, the school informed us that they had diagnosed her with Autistism (Asperger’s syndrome). That is tough news to take. But we pulled together, worked with the school district’s professionals and got her the help she needed. Now she’s a bratty 15 year old! My wife and I worked well together on this issue.

As the kids got older we had the same marriage issues as everyone else. We were tired, money was always tight, the kids came first, etc. I knew what would happen from speaking with other parents, so it wasn’t unexpected and we just dealt with it.

Throughout all of 2006 my wife was acting very strange. Looking back, I realize it started when she had gone out with some people from work, came home late and said she regretted drinking and wouldn’t do that again. However, she kept going out after work and said it was fun. She even told me they played pool, had a drink and generally enjoyed the evening.

I thought this was fantastic! My wife had some of her own friends and was happy. I even bought her a very nice pool cue for her birthday. The problem was – she wasn’t happy. She cried all the time. When I asked what was wrong, her reply was “I can’t tell you”. I would push her a little, but not to the point of a fight so I’d drop the discussion. It got to the point where she’d come home crying and I’d tell her “I pray every day for you to find happiness”….she’d just cry more.

Her behavior at home was strange too. She spent a lot of time in the garage talking on the phone. At one point she actually asked me if should could quit her job. During our marriage we had NEVER had sex in the car – one time we parked by the side of the road and started…then she just broke into tears. I thought I was hurting her (it was NOT the easiest or most comfortable sex to try…). It never occurred to me that this could be bringing up guilty feelings. Several times she would leave the house at 10:00 PM telling me a coworker wanted to talk over coffee. I look back now and realize how silly that was, as she wouldn’t even go up the block to get food if she was hungry.

She changed her appearance too. As married couples do, we had let ourselves go and were ‘casual’ with our appearance. But she lost weight and starting wearing nice clothes and putting on makeup, changed her hair color to blond and just was much sexier. And she came home one day with a new tattoo on her lower back…that was a surprise.

We went without sex for much of this time. Around Halloween she had a wild idea of buying a costume and getting crazy on me. That lasted about two weeks (and was a lot of fun). After that little adventure we went back to sex rarely happening.

Then one Friday – Feb. 9th, 2008 – I confronted her with this comment…”If you don’t tell me what’s wrong, I’m going to assume the worst.” That is what did it. The dam broke and she confessed a 15 month affair with a guy at work.

She was not expecting my reaction. Instead of being angry, I looked at what I could do! Immediately I stopped all activity that didn’t involve her. I had my own friends that I would hang out with and I played World of Warcraft a lot (That came to an immediate END.) I’ve always thought that the only person I can control is myself, so I needed to figure out what I needed to do. I tried to make myself more appealing to her, evening trading in my Aztek for a new Mustang! (Which made people think I was going through a mid-life crisis, or even having an affair myself.)

The next day we went out to eat and just cried until snot was dripping out of our faces. The waiter insisted that if the food was too spicy we could send it back. We told him it was fine, just leave us alone. No, he said he’d bring the manager over to fix it. Fortunately we got our check and left.

The following day was Sunday. We went to church and it was a disaster. We sat in church with about 2,000 other people just balling our eyes out. I’m still so shocked over it that I haven’t been back. (That’s one of the obstacles I’ve still got in front of me to cross. But I will.)

I did not have anyone to talk to about this. She wanted the affair to remain a secret to our family members and friends. At first I respected this, but over time I just needed somebody to talk to. We worked on our relationship – she admitted that the events over Halloween were her efforts to spark something between us (and that means EVERYTHING to me). Unfortunately, she didn’t end the affair. I actually caught her again in April 2008 by looking at her phone records.

This time she wanted a divorce. But get this – she expected me to move out and leave her with the house and kids….and she was going to move the other guy in! I actually considered this…for about 15 seconds. It just chapped my ass to think of spending my whole adult life building towards my goal of a family, home and career and just walking away to let some other P.O.S. take over. One part of me wanted to run far away and start over, but no, I am keeping the house. The kids stay with the house, which means me. If anyone was leaving, it was her.

I actually talked to the guy once, on the phone. I was fed up and had nothing to lose, so despite her pleading with me not to I called him from her phone and told him to leave her alone, never deal with us again, and he’d never hear from me. The thought of us living together, staying married for the kids and she having an affair while I knew about it was just the end of the line for me. His response was to threaten me and cuss me out. My wife liked this however – I had stood up for her. He chewed her out for it and she realized what a piece of trash he really is. (I’m leaving a lot of stuff out here.) 

Well that did it. She changed her tune and wanted to work on the marriage. Again we kept the affair secret. We went to counseling, sometimes twice a week. I decided that I needed to talk with friends so let a select few know what was happening. This bothered her, but not very much. I was in terrible pain of this and discovered playing World of Warcraft wasn’t as responsible for the situation as I thought it was. In fact, it actually helps me deal with the hurt because when I am playing WoW I am not thinking of anything else.

I remember the very first question the therapist asked me: “Do you feel like hurting the other man.” It shocked me in a way – preventing me from killing him was more important, I guess. I did think of it, but realized that my spending my life in jail wasn’t going to fix the relationship or help my kids either. And there’s that whole “Going to Hell” thing too.

Speaking of death, I admit to thoughts of suicide. I had never understood how people can decide to kill themselves. Now I understand. At some point you can just hurt so bad that you are done with life. I reached that decision point but realized things would get better and that my kids would need me. And there’s that whole “Going to Hell” thing again. For a short time there I was in a frame of mind that if somebody had cut me off on the road, I’d have hit him. It’s scary thinking back to that as I write this.

Then in June I went out to the garage and heard her van running in the driveway (the garage door was closed). I stood there listening to it, but it was strange to me that she wasn’t opening the door. So I hit the button and up it came. She just drove in like nothing happened….but I suspected again.

That night I searched the van and found a cell phone charger that didn’t match her phone. Not good. I managed to get into her purse – which she was keeping beside the bed instead of in the kitchen as usual – and guess what? She had another cell phone. The only number in it was this other guy….

Busted a third time, I made her tell the kids. This was important to me because I wanted them to know it wasn’t me causing all of this. It really shook her and I was convinced the affair was finally over.

But it wasn’t.

The final act was performed in August – on our 20th anniversary. She told me the day before that she had to stay after work for an all-hands meeting and wouldn’t be home until late. Uh huh. She went on a ‘date night’ with the other guy. The next day I confronted her. My wife had just spent our 20th anniversary having sex with another guy…even after being CAUGHT three times.

Well that was it. I went to a lawyer. I waited to tell her this until we were sitting in our counseling session. She absolutely freaked. The therapist asked me to leave. Several hours later I was called and told my wife was in the hospital. I’ll leave out the details, but this was very ugly – she ended up being handcuffed at the hospital and driven in a police car to a mental hospital for a forced stay.

That finally did it. I have been diligent in checking on her and she has not seen this guy at all. He tried to contact her at work via email, but she actually called the police and had them make it clear he wasn’t to contact her again. As best as I can tell, there has been no further contact for over a year.

In October, 2008 I was hit by a teenage driver running a red light. As I was flying out of control through the intersection towards the Ford Expedition that would stop my momentum, with the driver’s side door caved into my body, it occurred to me that I was ready to die. I yelled out to God. For the very first time in my life I felt at peace. My only regret would be not to be there for my kids as they become adults, but they’d manage. But I lived and fortunately was not hurt bad. That Mustang saved my life.

While was being cut out of the car, all I could think of was to have someone call my wife. For two hours I was in the emergency room alone and I just wanted her. A police officer went to the house and got her. When she showed up all I wanted to do was hold her.

She is not well. This whole series of events makes more sense if I look at it as her having a mental illness. My wife is sick and needs to heal. Also, when I went to the lawyer I had finally crossed that line in my mind and spirit where I was accepting the concept of divorce, which was extremely hard for me. And I don’t want a divorce, but Jesus specifically gives an exception for adultery. Does He mean I must divorce? Or is it an option? Can I wait until the kids are grown and then do it? Why is it so unclear now? Maybe divorce is acceptable to some, but for me this is a concept I have lived my whole life determined is not an option. I think that possibility actually hurts more than the affair.

It’s been over a year since the affair ended, and 21 months since I found out. For some reason, I expected forgiveness to work by now. We are getting along well and even took a trip to England, where we spent our 21st anniversary. That was very awkward for me and she knows it, but we had a great time and great memories.

We have not had sex since March. She has completely let herself go and gained a ton of weight. It wouldn’t matter except she just is not physically attractive and the last two times we had sex it did not go well. I’d rather just masturbate and wait for her to decide if she wants to lose weight.

A couple of weeks ago she told me that she wanted sex. Here’s another moral issue for me – I believe that a husband and wife should NOT deny sex to each other! (She did that to me for our whole marriage.) I have never said ‘No’ to her until now. This is sinful in my opinion and very much a problem for me.

I discussed it with her and told her my only option at this point if she continues to want sex was the divorce. She understands and withdrew her request for sex (though I know she still wants it) and will work on her weight. There’s more of an issue than just appearance. Her health is suffering. She wrecked her knees, had surgery on one and walks around limping. Before the affair I was committed to pushing her crippled body around in a wheelchair for the last 30 years of my life if necessary, but the affair changed that obligation. I’m positive that I don’t want to live that way and she can control it. There’s still the thought in my mind that she made herself attractive for the other guy, why not for me? I love my wife and kids more than anything in the world and want to make this work. My mind is made up about this issue. She either gets herself in shape or we will divorce. I’ll stay until the kids are grown, for their sake. But I am not living the rest of my life like this. The future of our marriage is up to her.

With all of this being said, I’m actually on pretty level ground. I’ve accepted that the wounds will heal over time, but a scar will always remain. I pray often, and my prayers are helpful. But my current feeling is: “If my prayers are being answered and everything in my life is working out now, why do I feel like crap?”


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Are you sure you are not punishing her for making herself attractive for the other guy and not you, by witholding sex? Personally, despite what she's done and how her weight has grown, I think you are wrong to withold sex from her. You elected to stay married. People don't get married to not have sex.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Dude, it ain't happening. I have done a lot already and am willing to do more, but sex requires certain physical actions that just aren't possible at this time. And with her knees the way they are, what position can we use?

No, this is her choice. I'm not punishing her.

I will add that it helps if I use Viagra, but in the past that upset her because she feels I should get plenty of arousal just from her. She needs to accept that when we get back to having sex.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

So you are having performance problems and you are blaming her for them?


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

21 months of hell and I get this?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sven,
Did you say that your wife denied you sex for most of your marriage? Was that a chronic problem or the normal stuff? What I mean is it is normal for a young man to want sex daily and his wife to want less then that. 

In some marriages though, after kids the wife avoids sex as much as possible and the man gives up and starts asking. Is that what happened to you after your second child? 

Have you truly forgiven her for the affair that she stayed with and stayed with despite repeatedly breaking your heart?

I don't quite buy the mental illness defense for one reason. During the time before and during the affair she was able to work and function just fine every day. Sure she was guilty and conflicted and sad, but she pulled it off. 

Cheating on their 20th. Such ugly stuff. 

I believe she finally had a breakdown but that was self inflicted stress. 

Then to do the obsessive eating thing after losing weight for the other guy seems hateful. 

I just think Sven is your classic - super devoted Christian who got pushed past his breaking point too many times. And while I love the idea of forgiveness - there has been too much abuse here. I never support withholding sex - except this time I do. He needs to gradually pull away emotionally so he can do what he needs to to when the kids leave. 



dobo said:


> Are you sure you are not punishing her for making herself attractive for the other guy and not you, by witholding sex? Personally, despite what she's done and how her weight has grown, I think you are wrong to withold sex from her. You elected to stay married. People don't get married to not have sex.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Okay, thanks for the replies.

I would love to have sex with my wife! I'd do it as soon as she got home from work IF IT WAS PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE.

Currently it is not. I believe she alone can resolve that.

When we got married I made the horrible and immature mistake of telling her that if she didn't want to have sex, then I wouldn't push the issue. Wow, how I regret that. Being rejected sucks, that's just all there is to it. But I understand it and know from talking with many others that this is the way life is.

After the kids her sex life dived, but I don't blame her for that.

She is completely and totally forgiven. The wound that really hurts is the one where I had to give in to the possibility of divorce in order to stop the affair.

At one point we were going to actually stay together while she openly had the affair. I didn't like it, but what choice did I have? It was an evening when she was planning to go off to see this other guy when I had enough and couldn't stand the thought anymore - and called him.

Yes I do think she is mentally ill. It explains a lot during our marriage and she is currently under the care of a psychiatrist and taking meds. I love her very much and don't want to hurt her and would never do anything to 'punish' her.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

He claims to love his wife and children more than anything in the world and wants to make this work.

Sorry. I don't buy it. 

He hasn't forgiven and I don't see love in his response toward his wife. I see revenge. I see a guy who feels he can demand anything because he was wronged. 

I personally think he's full of it. He should just divorce now and stop pretending to love her. 

Or honestly, she should dump him. 

It isn't that I blame him for having reached his limit. It is that I find his (ahem) claims to fundamentalism and marriage to be full of hot air. He's lying to himself and to her. 

I think he should seek therapy and stop this ruse.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Sven said:


> When we got married I made the horrible and immature mistake of telling her that if she didn't want to have sex, then I wouldn't push the issue. Wow, how I regret that.


Yep, that was a bad move. On the other hand, you respected her wishes and likely stopped pursuing if she was rejecting sex. At some point she wanted sex again and either pursued and was rejected by you or didn't even bring it up and eventually went outside of the marriage. Anyway I look at this one as, she made a really bad, selfish choice without respect or regard for your feelings.

If she were cuffed and sent to a mental institution, she was likely suicidal and they did what they had to do. I don't know what type of meds she's on but a friend of mine gained a huge amount of weight on depression meds (she was always thin, athletic and put on about 70 lbs in a short time) Does your wife have a plan to get off of the meds at some point? Did she discuss the weight gain with a Dr?

I think it's pretty clear why you feel like crap. You are unable to forgive her for the affair and you resent her for not stepping up and being a hot, sexy, submissive wife for you and are left with the thought that she did this for another man. I'd be pissed too.

Your dilemma on whether or not to remain married after the affair really can go either way. In my opinion, if you are able to forgive at some point you will be able to have a strong, loving marriage, providing your wife is ready to be a giving force in the marriage as well...meaning working to make you happy.

If you honestly cannot get past this and forgive, it is probably best to go your separate ways. It is not fair to you to live your life feeling hurt and betrayed and equally not fair to expect your wife to pay for her mistake for the rest of her life.

The most difficult thing is knowing if or when forgiveness will happen. Not everyone can do it & your situation is pretty extreme.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Sven said:


> She is completely and totally forgiven.


Believe it. Don't believe it. I can no more control your actions than I can my wife's or anyone elses.

But it doesn't get any more clear than that. Maybe you guys have trouble forgiving and think it automatically applies to me.

Let's just go with the assumption that she really is forgiven and offer advice from there. Okay? Because if you're going to tell me that she's not, the advice doesn't do much for me.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Sven said:


> It’s been over a year since the affair ended, and 21 months since I found out. For some reason, I expected forgiveness to work by now.


okie dokie then :scratchhead:


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Are you suggesting that I haven't really forgiven her even though I say I have?

I accept that point of view and the possibility of it. Maybe it is more of a hope than a fact?

Consider this anecdote...

Many months ago I found a pair of boxer shorts on the bedroom floor by my side of the bed. I didn't remember putting them there and definitely knew that I should not toss my underwear to the floor! I started joking with my wife "Hey, who's are these? Who put these here? These aren't mine!"

Oh wow.

I had completely and totally forgotten about the affair. My wife started to get upset and then I realized what I'd done. In a way, it feels good to know I can forget. I'm sorry I brought it up and now try to be careful, which I guess means I have to remember a tiny bit to avoid that mistake again.

But I will listen to you guys. If you think I haven't forgiven, then I don't know where to go from here. It's my INTENTION to forgive her. We'll see how time takes care of this, I guess.

And thanks for the advice on the meds. I'll ask about that.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

I actually did not see your forgiveness quote but was interpreting 'expecting forgiveness to work by now' as you were hoping to have forgiven her by now...Only you know if you have....

For me forgiveness brought me a sense of peace...the anger subsided and empathy took its place...this happened with my husband first. At that time I also did not feel any desire to throw things back in his face or hold a grudge or carry the pain day by day...I don't think forgetting is an option, but forgiving just made me feel different.

I also felt forgiveness for the OW after some time, not to say I'd ever be friends with her or hang out but it is in the past and I let it go.

Your boxer short example is a good sign that you are moving on...I suppose if you were not you would have triggered some bad thoughts before anything came out of your mouth.

I do think it's important to put your marriage as the top priority and make changes so you are both happy and fulfilled within it...so I can understand you being frustrated with her weight gain...but I personally have tried to do my best to make my husband happy rather than focus on anything negative that he could be doing better...he does the same and we are both happy...it's hard to even think of anything negative to be honest because these things are so minor now in the grand scheme.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Thank you so much for your comments.

It took me several days to write the original post, and my wife read it before I posted it. She agreed to it and might (or might not) be reading this thread.

I just texted her and asked "Do you think I have forgiven you." She replied "not completely".

Instead of me being a hard-headed ass about this, I'll accept it. But now what?

Time I guess?

Now I doubt everything. In circumstances like this, I just put my head down and go forward....


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## crazybunnie25 (Nov 18, 2009)

Everything takes time. Are you two still going to theraphy?

One thing to keep in mind, please keep your children out of this. They are not involved in this what so ever.

At this point I'm happy that you have been faithful. Try to stay that way for as long as the relationship last. Because it will just make it worst if you do the same.

Are you still happy living with her? Have you tried to just move out for a week to see how things goes?

What is your wife's activity like for the week? Does she go out alone?
What is your activity like for the week? Does you go out alone?

Try this on the weekend. You, your wife and kids go to the park, lake, river, or creek. If the weather is nice of course and enjoy nature and fresh air. You don't have to stay long I say 20 minutes is fine.
Do not talk about anything upsetting. Just enjoy each other's company, If you can't enjoy each other's company, enjoy you're children.

When you are done with that. Think to yourself how did that make you feel to be out with the family for the short period.

If you have negative feelings about it. I would say you need to take a break from each other. Maybe not talk for a week and try again.

It you have positive feelings about it. Try longer trips out. Or do something else fun for your children. Then maybe try one trip alone with just the wife.

There is soo many things to do and soo many ways to try to reconnect with your wife. 

BUT as always it takes the both of you to get things going again.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Sven said:


> My mind is made up about this issue. She either gets herself in shape or we will divorce.


I guess this struck a chord with me....I was thinking, based on your religious background and views on marriage...would this have even been a thought in your mind when you first married and said your vows to her? (did you think...if she gains weight down the road...I'm outta there!)



Sven said:


> With all of this being said, I’m actually on pretty level ground. I’ve accepted that the wounds will heal over time, but a scar will always remain.


This is such solid thinking...not knowing how much time is needed requires a lot of patience, so it's good you have accepted this.

my husband's affair had just begun...only a few weeks...never had sex w/her...and it took me a few years to really not think about it anymore, so you have moved much quicker than I...

I hope I am not causing you to doubt everything....I guess I just see your situation as a little more grey than black and white...there was a lot of damage done and I think you can decide in your head what it means and what you want going forward but you cannot always control that deep-down hurt...that human need to want to un-do it, fix it, knowing good and well that you cannot unring that bell...but searching for the alternative survival.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sven,
Until I read the post below I truly believed you were a true believer - in your religion. 

But you cannot claim to be a true believer and also state that your intention was to let your wife openly continue this affair while you were married. 

No man would say "what choice did I have?" You flat out know that adultery is grounds for divorce so you absolutely had a choice. You were choosing to allow your wife to treat you like this because you had an overwhelming fear of conflict. And you flat out stated your wife wanted you to leave the house so she could replace you with the man she had fallen for. 

ALL of this is consistent. Telling her up front if she didn't feel like having sex that was ok - was a conflict avoidant step AND also it conveyed to her that her needs were more important than yours and that somehow you didn't deserve to be treated properly as a husband. 

As for the meds and the weight gain - I guess you can look that up. It sure sounds like this has been a very one sided marriage from day one. Do you feel like she has been trying to make it up to you - her bad behavior for all that time - or was she just hoping you would simply forgive and forget? 




Sven said:


> Okay, thanks for the replies.
> 
> I would love to have sex with my wife! I'd do it as soon as she got home from work IF IT WAS PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE.
> 
> ...


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Wow so much to think about. I'm really glad I finally posted something, even though I just spent the past 30 minutes crying.

Tonight is Lodge night. The Saturday morning after finding out about the affair we had a lodge meeting and I just sat there crying into my hands. I'm afraid of that happening tonight. But I'm going anyway and will respond when I get back.

Thank you all so much.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Back from lodge. No crying, but I was a bit scatter-brained as I was only thinking about this.

We are not in counseling together. We felt taken advantage of - like the therapist was actually trying to start a fight. So we quit. She still has a psychiatrist.

The children are 14 and 15. They know everything. I gave her the opportunity (more than once) to keep it secret, but if a divorce was going to happen, everyone was going to know who started it. It's good the kids know, they were very confused before being told.

I will be faithful to my wife until the day I die. I have no consideration of life without her. We did not move apart. In fact, I work from home almost exclusively now....after finding out she was bringing the other guy home during the day. Now I'm just spoiled by not going into the office!

As for living apart....we did that when she was in the hospital. It absolutely sucked to no end.

We still go out with separate friends. I think that is important. But we spend time together too. I'm going to take Crazy's suggestion on the park. We are both committed to moving on from this. I'm hoping it will make our marriage stronger. Is that a false hope?

Swedish, when I took my wedding vows I meant every word. It's an interesting point you brought up about leaving her over her weight. Not in a million years! Unfortunately, events have taken me to a place where I had to accept divorce as an option. I'm really more concerned about a life of taking care of an invalid (only because she let herself get that way) than the sex.

Your husband had an affair but no sex? That's interesting and answers a lot of questions I see in other threads about what constitutes sex and what is an affair. There are certain parts of a marriage that just belong only to a spouse. Sex is only one item in that list.

MEM, the bit about letting her continue the affair is still bizarre to me. We actually worked the details out with the therapist: sleep in the same bed? Yes. Sex? No. In the bathroom at the same time? Not if one of us is naked. Etc. This happened on a Wednesday. By Thursday I realized my wife was going to work the next day and not coming home until she had met up with the other guy, had sex and whatever else, came home when she felt like it (who knows when that would have been...all weekend?) and then crawl into my bed. I could not take it and was ready to burn down the whole world if necessary to prevent it. That's when I grabbed her phone and called him. It worked for the moment, though she tried to continue the affair without me knowing.

I like your comments about me having a fear of conflict. It makes sense that the affair didn't really end until I went to a lawyer and she realized I was prepared to stand up to her.

Please understand that we've gone through a lot in 21 years. I had a back injury four weeks before our wedding. We cancelled the honeymoon. The first year was surgery and recovery. She put up with me the whole time and I will never ever forget it. I can't help but wonder if I damaged the marriage then.

Thank you all. This was intended to be an introduction message, but it's turned out to be much more.


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## crazybunnie25 (Nov 18, 2009)

Finding the right therapist("the rapist" lol) is not easy. 

My ex husband and I went through about 8 of them and it didn't work, only because we didn't want to work at the same time. Our relationship was one affair after another. We both cheated on each other.

Everyone wants to make their relationship stronger. With an affair in the relationship when you overcome it, which is going to be a long time(nothing is easy), you will love each other alot more.

You said psychiatrist. Is she having a harder time getting over what she had done to you? 

You ask in another thread "are you glad you said "Forget it I"m done"? "
Truth is. I'm not exactly sure. I regretted that the relationship had failed, but I am glad I went through it. It gave me more to learn about life. 

I did find another man to love and be loved(literally 6 months before the divorce date). But I'm still torn from my past relationship. I didn't give myself enough time to get over my ex. Now it has projected on to my current relationship.

Currently we are both faithful, he is deployed and I'm afraid he's cheating on me, althrough he has done nothing to show that he is. I just still have that major fear.

My emotions are more intense now then before. I have been through many therapists, psychiatrists and medications. Which messed up a little bit.

Currently med free and hoping that the future will be brighter.


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

I just wanted to comment that it was a very well written story Sven, and I think you are a special guy to care and be as devoted as you are to the marriage. 

I think you are being way too hard on yourself by being upset by her comment that you haven't forgiven her completely. Obviously you were upset by other's comments pertaining to the same. Only you can know in your heart if you have forgiven, and no one can tell you that. Hold it personal to yourself until you feel ready to express it. I agree with Swedish that you never forget..but forgiving will make you feel different.

(I am not sure I have completely forgiven my husband, but I need to search to the bottom of my soul and to really think about it.) Give yourself the time...you have been hurt very deeply. But if she is mentally ill (bipolar?...whatever) you are awesome for giving her slack. On the other hand I hope she wasn't using that as an excuse.

It sounds to me like you really love her and I am wondering if you will really leave once the kids grow. Things change constantly...I hope you find peace in whatever you do.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Sven said:


> We are both committed to moving on from this. I'm hoping it will make our marriage stronger. Is that a false hope?


I don't think so. Our marriage is stronger than it's ever been. Since you are both committed, it's a very real possibility.


Sven said:


> Swedish, when I took my wedding vows I meant every word. It's an interesting point you brought up about leaving her over her weight. Not in a million years! Unfortunately, events have taken me to a place where I had to accept divorce as an option. I'm really more concerned about a life of taking care of an invalid (only because she let herself get that way) than the sex.


I won't even pretend to understand the bible on this but I understand adultry is something that puts the option for divorce on the table...but isn't that the choice you make if you cannot forgive your spouse for the adultry? I wouldn't think all bets are off at that point and you can divorce for whatever reason you see fit...or am I missing something?


Sven said:


> Your husband had an affair but no sex? That's interesting and answers a lot of questions I see in other threads about what constitutes sex and what is an affair.


Yep, not sure what to call it, maybe I have the semantics wrong...kissing was involved...I see EA (emotional affair) and PA (physcial affair) and not sure where this fits. He ended it on his own the same day I found out, before I confronted him.


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## Tweak (Nov 18, 2009)

My wife never has cheated on me.However I have had a girlfriend or 2 that have.

While it is no less painful when a Girlfriend has done it,in marriage the outcome can be dramatically different.

I can share this pain a bit,but the true bitterness of being married and having it happen is foreign to me.Thank God.

While I could not be sure as to how I would react if it did,my first reaction mentally in my head is that the guy would be dead.To heck with the repercussions.

I have talked to my wife about this before.This nasty Cheating topic.I have told her that if ever she was to do this,to at least let me know.Don't do it behind my back.
When its done this way,in my mind it seems different.However cheating is still cheating.
(Odd this flesh and mind of mine is,I have a bit of a fantasy about my Lady with other men.)
I to am Christian,I know exactly what you mean about being torn.
Marriage is sacred,Ge 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

When cheated on and in the spirit of this verse.Not only was she having sex with another man,but you both were.You are to be as one.
The bible states the only rules for divorcement are Adultery.
Mt 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, 
committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

But it does not command this divorcement to happen.It is simply stating that this would be the only reason for it.

About the cheating thing.....I could never forget and I do not forgive easily.No matter how hard you try it would/will be in the very back of your mind till the day you die,even subconsciously.

I know my ex-girlfriends that done this is there in my mind.I RAGE very easily over this and its been years ago. 
Its the lies that gets to me,not the sex.
However I still fill "left out",as in I feel maybe I missed something about trying to be with as many women as possible.Promiscuity is,I think,the word.The life of "care free" sex.The fact she shared her body with 2 other men,while you were wanting her.The possibility that you were missing out on a "chance" to have someone different while she is accomplishing this.

Yeah I am upset for you dude.
However,if you love her and she loves you......the answer is clear.
However if she is unwilling to help fix things and does this again,kick her rear to the curb,tell the *whole* family and your *church* ,witness to them about how hurt you are.Keep the House and the Kids.
I will end this rant by simply stating this.Christians have a sex drive to,we are human.*There are millions of single,attractive Christian women in this world* They are actively seeking Christian Single guys.
She can be replaced,if it would come to that.No one needs to be lonely.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Again, thank you all so much for the responses. I've been soaking it all in. And I'm realizing that a different perspective is what I need.

One thing I'm learning on these forums is that there are different standards for divorce. I don't hold to the "As long as we both think it's a good idea" vow.

Meh. I don't want to talk about divorce. I want to talk about how I love my wife, forgive her and want to help her get better...she has been beating herself up her whole life. She's her own worst enemy and I don't think she's forgiven herself.

Last night she took our 14 year old to the midnight movie (New Moon). I went to bed alone and woke up with her sleeping next to me (fully clothed). I don't want to live my life without that. Going to sleep alone didn't bother me because I knew she'd home.

I'm lucky that we don't have ex-anythings, step-children with other parents in our lives, kids that reasonably behave, and other people's problems to deal with in addition to our own.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Sven said:


> Meh. I don't want to talk about divorce. I want to talk about how I love my wife, forgive her and want to help her get better...she has been beating herself up her whole life. She's her own worst enemy and I don't think she's forgiven herself.


That's cool...

I hope she starts feeling better about herself...depression and/or meds to treat it can both point to weight gain. Hopefully she will get well enough physically to be able to exercise...that's a great way to combat both depression and weight gain. It would be nice to be able to go for walks, etc. as a couple.

You are a good guy, sven...if you are able to support her now like she did for you in the beginning of your marriage you will both come out of this better in the end.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Sven - From what I've read you seem to take a lot of responsibility for fixing things. Your wife is a grown up woman and needs to take responsibility for winning you back. She cheated in a horrible, abusive way. Repeatedly lying, bringing the guy back to your house, causing you to doubt the truth. The onus is on her, not on you. 

This article may help:

SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for those affected by Infidelity

Your faith aside: Needing her, and wanting to be with her are different things. Needing is co-dependant and not love. Wanting implies choice. You choose to love her.

This woman has acted in an extremely unloving way to you. The weight gain, lack of effort on her part, and the excuses that she's mentally ill, all point to a one sided relationship. Do you really want to live like this for the rest of your life?


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

That link is astonishing - another website to read. So much - I wish I had found all of this 21 months ago!

I've been drinking off and off for the past few months. On my birthday in June I drank an entire bottle of scotch that was a gift to me years ago. I don't even like scotch, but it was easy to drink. I don't have anything against drinking, but my father was an alchoholic and I haven't been much of a drinker my whole life. But lately one beer sure feels good and makes me sleep well.

One thing that is bothering me a lot is a feeling that my family is just waiting for me to make up my mind to leave. It's like everything I say about forgiveness and wanting to make this work is false. My oldest daughter told me she thinks I'm leaving when she's gone.

Today I asked my wife if she's forgiven herself. She said "No" which makes sense I guess. She's beating herself up. I want to wait for her to get better, but I think giving it a few more years is the way to go.

Adultery sucks. Don't ever consider it.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

So the wife and had a great talk tonight...."I need to give you time to forgive yourself"..."I'm lucky to have you"...."We can have sex when you're ready"...blah blah.....

We go shopping, hang out and it's good. As we check out she's got a giant bag of Rolo's.

I guess that's part of her healing.


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## crazybunnie25 (Nov 18, 2009)

Just try to keep the wife happy, Beating herself up is part of the recovery but it can get out of hand.

Maybe you two can start with walks around the block or something to give her a boost into exercising.

Everything needs to start slow, quick changes can effect her moods

When I cheated I beat myself up alot. My ex tried his best to make me happy and we try to patch things up and I stop getting depressed. But I didn't get out of depression fast enough for him, so he cheated on me again. FUN!


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## Tweak (Nov 18, 2009)

@Sven-The Bible says to give Wine to someone with a heavy heart.
If anything in this old world could drive a man or woman of faith to drinking,it would be the woman or man in his/her life doing something like this.
While I do know that it is ok to have a good stiff drink to get over the worse parts of the emotional hell that something like this can cause.

I urge you to not pick up a bad habit.You would not want this monkey on your back later down the road if and when your marriage has fully healed and your wife is devoted to you once more.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Thanks for the help. I'm going to stop drinking to avoid this becoming an issue. (I'm a guy of 'absolutes'....if you can tell.)



> When I cheated I beat myself up alot. My ex tried his best to make me happy and we try to patch things up and I stop getting depressed.


That's very helpful for me, thank you. I'm concerned that my wife takes me for granted and doesn't feel any urgency around working on her own happiness.


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## crazybunnie25 (Nov 18, 2009)

There is time that I feel I shouldn't even work on getting the relationship better. Most of the time it is because I just blocked soo much out that I can't see what is around me. Things got worst when I found out he cheated on me again, so the relationship was not meant to last.

Everything takes time. Also it depends on the level of her depression.

I have bi-polar(which is not fully studied, and I think everyone has it). My bi-polar is only manic depending on my surroundings. I get depressed when there is too much negative things going on and if I continue to think negatively.

So try to stay positive as much as possible. She needs that too. Then again EVERYONE needs to be positive and happy


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

The 'cheating on me again' thing is really hard. I think my wife never really ended the affair until it was crystal clear that her life with me and the kids would be OVER. She wanted a home life and an affair at the same time. I was foolish to not get the lawyer the first time...because I believed her when she said it was over.

My wife got really good at lying. The first time I caught her, she could not lie at all. The fourth time, she stuck to her story for hours until I finally cornered her with facts. She swore up and down it was over and was very convincing.

***

She has been telling me that I haven't made enough physical contact with her. Last night I tried to cuddle with her - just slide up to her in bed. She freaked - I was 'too cold'. I told her that I'd warm her up if she was cold. Nope, she didn't want me near. Remember - she sleeps fully dressed.

That hurt a lot. I get more affection from the cat than I do from her.

Yesterday I joined the Shriners. All of the other men were there with their wives. Mine had a hair appointment. Oh well. Everyone kept asking me and I just told them she had other plans. They push and push and it just wears me down and I have to walk away.

I'm afraid of the path I need to follow.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

> That hurt a lot. I get more affection from the cat than I do from her.


I'm having a hard time following you. On the one hand you say your wife is comitted to rebuilding, but on the other hand you don't write much about specific ACTIONS she is doing to rebuild. 

Typically, a wayward spouse needs to rebuild safety/trust with you through being transparent with her actions (access to cell records, email accounts, etc), being affectionate (you want to feel like she's chosen you, not settled for you), and voluntary disclosure for facts (betrayed spouses usually have an intense desire to "know" details - what, when, how things happened to unravel the lies and figure out what was true). 

Is she doing any of this?


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

This is the kind of feedback that is very helpful to me. I'm not seeing things clearly.

She's definitely not affectionate, but complains I'm not either.

But she's also not hiding ANYTHING from me and I have not detected any lies. And yes, I checked.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

I included a link in a previous post. Has she read this info there? There's also some books that are helpful: Not Just Friends, After the Affair, etc. Has she read any of these?

My fear for you is that things slip into a malaise, where she isn't working very hard, and the relationship just coasts indefinitely. My view is that the marriage problems are 50/50, the affair is 100% on her, and she needs to understand that restoring trust and your faith in her is the FIRST thing that needs to happen to allow the other marriage issues to get dealt with.

Her being passive in the recovery isn't a commitment to you, so much as a lack of commitment to leaving.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

The link was helpful to me. She is not reading anything - not even these forums anymore. I don't know why.



seeking sanity said:


> My fear for you is that things slip into a malaise, where she isn't working very hard, and the relationship just coasts indefinitely.


Swish - nothing but net. That so nails where we're at. The path is clear, but I don't want to go there. So I've convinced myself that I'll wait for the kids to grow up and then see where we are at. It has the advantage of keeping the home together for the kids AND giving her lots of time to get herself together. The cost is emotional pain for me.

We still love and need each other....but living like this sucks.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

At this point you have one of 3 choices:

1. Endure and try to minimize your unhappiness by filling your life with other things.

2. Lead by example. Be the catalyst for a better relationship. Romance her, be a model, loving husband, and hope she reengages. (I tried this one for a while, and found it beyond humiliating that I was making a bunch of effort to win back a cheating W.) This is REALLY hard to pull off because you have to totally remove your own needs/ego. I wasn't man enough to be able to sustain it.

3. Leave the marriage. Sorry, we tried, couldn't get past the pain. I'm not willing to be a 2nd choice to anyone, kind of thing.

I eventually opted for 3 after trying 2. Often wish she somehow could have stepped up in a serious way. Moving on and mostly okay. Divorce does suck tho.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Wow SS, you're really sharp.

I try #2, but it's just not possible to maintain that level of effort when she bites back and rejects me. So I go to #1 for a while.

#3 happens in four years if the situation isn't substantially better.


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## shann (Nov 22, 2009)

Guilt can be a horrible thing. It can eat away at you it can drive you to hate yourself so much. I have watched it do that to my husband. I have also watched his appearance change as well. Instead of telling him I couldn't have sex with him because he was not attractive I tried to help him realize that he wasn't happy the way he is. 

I know your wife has hurt you and you are hurt I have been there too. But to me if you are there and you are married still then you need to put forth an honest effort. I know this sounds unfair after everything you have been through but honestly if you don't why are you there? 
You may not love the way your wife looks right now but she needs to be renforced that she is truely worth love. Her self esteems is low her love for herself is low. She might have fixed herself up for the other guy but I bet he was giving her positive feedback. Different things motivate different people. When my husband cheated I went shopping crazy that was how I blocked it out right now she is blocking it out by food I am guessing its an addiction. Just like the affair was an addiciton by the sounds of it. 
If she has any self hate right now then you need to help her with it. As her partner you take her for better or worse and right now she is at her worst. One thing that helps me love myself after my husband cheated was to join a gym. What about the two of you joining together going together spending that time together. 

I know first hand how hard it is to put forth an effort. I used to think why should I he didn't for over a year. But I think it will only work if you both grab eachother and jump in fully.

I wish you all the best of luck.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

I'm not sure that you're actually seeking advice in this thread, more just telling your story. I think you have told it well and I heard you.

The whole 20th anniversary thing. Holy crap.


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## crazybunnie25 (Nov 18, 2009)

If she is turning you down then I would watch out. I'm thinking she starting to be selfish. Meaning she only cares for herself. I was like that for some time and my exhusband couldn't take it anymore and cheated on me.

I would give her another month to try to work with you on getting together, if she doesn't. She going to need to be pushed just enough so you can be heard and she must feel you.

Remind her that you want to work things out, but she has rejected you way to much. You are at the point that you might just as well divorce her. Or make a plan of being married but living seperated lives.

My father told me when I was 16 years old that when I turn 18 he and mom are divorcing. I knew it was going to happen someday but I had to see them fight and yell so much. It still hurts me til this day. I'm 25 years old and I'm afraid of relationships because of my parents and my past. 

Adding the fact that I'm easily depressed. Yep I'm screwed all the way around.


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## bestblu1 (Oct 21, 2009)

Sven,

A couple of things that I think you could think about. Number 1 is for you to figure out how to feel good about who you are as a man without having to get your self worth from your wife. What I mean by that is that as long as you keep looking back at what happened, and using her failures as a measuring stick for your own self worth, you will be hurting and miserable.

What has helped me more than anything to overcome the intense pain of my wife's infidelity, is building myself up mentally and spiritually. I know that I am worthy of being loved because God loves me. I know that I am a valuable human being because of what the Bible says about me. Of course I want to know that my wife loves me. Of course I want to feel valuable because of her commitment to me. But as long as I base my self worth on what she or any other human being feels about me, I am setting myself up for potential pain and suffering.

You say that you are a Christian. Do you really know what it means to be loved by God? Do you really think about where your true worth comes from? I believe that if you can get that settled, you will be more secure around your wife, and then you will have the strength to lift her up. Right now it sounds to me like you are both trying to get something from each other that neither of you can give. You are both completely depleted because your ability to love is based on how the other one treats you. If you are secure in who you are as a child of God, you can get your "love tank" filled back up. Because as long as your love tank is empty, she can never feel loved by you and vice versa.

The second thing is this: Does your wife know that God forgives her. I have found in my relationship struggles that as soon as I forgave my wife, we went to the Bible and made sure that she understood that she is forgiven by God. That had more positive impact on her than anything else. Her counselor also emphasized God's forgiveness to her. If a person does not feel forgiveness from God, it is difficult to forgive yourself and it is difficult to change if not impossible.


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## EternalBacheor (Jul 26, 2009)

Sven said:


> Wow SS, you're really sharp.
> 
> I try #2, but it's just not possible to maintain that level of effort when she bites back and rejects me. So I go to #1 for a while.
> 
> #3 happens in four years if the situation isn't substantially better.


You will never file for divorce.

Here is what will happen - your wife will eventually sue you for divorce -that is how this mess will come to a merciful end.

Count on it.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Atholk said:


> I'm not sure that you're actually seeking advice in this thread, more just telling your story. I think you have told it well and I heard you.
> 
> The whole 20th anniversary thing. Holy crap.


Originally, I was just buying my way onto the forums as a credentialled member of the "Me Too" club. But the advice has been fantastic.

Like learning that maybe I haven't completely forgiven her...

And the 20th anniversay thing - she can't complain if I don't make a big deal out of our anniversaries from her on out!


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

crazybunnie25 said:


> My father told me when I was 16 years old that when I turn 18 he and mom are divorcing. I knew it was going to happen someday but I had to see them fight and yell so much. It still hurts me til this day. I'm 25 years old and I'm afraid of relationships because of my parents and my past.


This is valuable to me. If it weren't for the kids, I wouldn't be here.

However...and this is huge...if it weren't for the kids I'm convinced she wouldn't have had the affair. So it cuts both ways.

She's tough on the kids when she loses her cool with them. (You know how teenagers can be.) But we have been getting along very well around them.


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## Tweak (Nov 18, 2009)

Maybe find what you still have in common instead of dwelling on your differences?

I know when my Mom And Dad divorced it was a mercy stroke.
Do not miss understand me.I wish to God that I had a more normal family and I could have had my Dad there for me.
However the yelling and the abuse,it wore on me emotionally as a child,it still effects me.Imagine if my parents would have stayed married till I was 18 yrs old.They divorced when I was 10 and my brother was 6.That would have been 8 more years of pure Hell and I would be screwed up as a result.Not the mention 12 yrs of fun for my little brother.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Thanks Tweak. My wife and I get along well. She has had an 'emotional rollercoaster' her whole life (part of that mental illness I mentioned) and she could get really upset over stupid stuff. She's on meds and that's helping a lot. So no shouting around the children. That will make it possible to actually work on this and give it time.

After all of this discussion, I'm confortable with my original plan of sticking it out until the kids are grown. I'm willing to work on the marriage, but she needs to come further on her side. If it just takes time, then she has four years. If she doesn't want to work on it - we will cross that bridge when we get there.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

I took the wife out for pizza and a beer tonight and we just sat and talked and she leaned over on me...it was great! We talked about divorce and I explained how it was tough that everyone expects me to pull the plug at some point - including her. I think she at least understands me.

I asked her this question. "If you asked me how much money I had in my wallet and I said '$11'..then you looked and found $30, what would you think?" Instead of thinking I'm a liar..she said she'd think I just forgot how much I had and that I always had a poor memory.

That's when I told her it was good I didn't lie, because I'd never keep a story straight! She liked that about me.

Anyway, she's in the living room right now with the kids just laughing and having a good time. I feel great right now.


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## Gomez (Jun 5, 2009)

I think you and your wife have very different sex drives, and no amount of time is going to change that. 

I think your wifes emotional roller-coaster is the result of her trying to make a relationship work with a man who she knows doesn't want her like she needs to be wanted, and who never has. This forum has convinced me there is nothing more tragic than a virgin getting married because you have no idea what your own sexual needs are and are incapable of choosing a person who could meet those needs. 

Your wife is probly not going to last four years for you to divorce her without looking to get those needs met, so she will either cheat again or divorce you first. The only way to avoid this is to find out what her sexual needs are and try to be the man who meets those for her. After 20 years of you not wanting sex from her she has probly dropped you from the list of people she wants to meet that need. 

Now she has done you so wrong that she feels she doesn't deserve your affection, and she will never feel right about recieving it from you no matter how much you want it to work out. I dont think your idea of working out and hers are the same, and if you try to push this marriage past its expiration you will only damage what friendship you could have afterwords. 

Recovery takes change, from both people. I think you mentioned very off hand that you play WoW, if you play more than 2 hrs on 2 or more days a week it is a problem and you should stop. you need to get out and build a real life with her if you want to have any future.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Last night, I logged onto WoW and decided that I'd rather take her out than play. Often she just doesn't want to do anything, but this time she took me up on my offer.

I've actually had the stronger sex drive than my wife during our marriage and she has been the one to reject me. Until recently, I had never denied her when she wanted sex. Currently sex is just not physically possible. She really did get fat in the past year+ and of all the positions we know, with her weight and bad knees and my bad back, it just isn't happening right now (we tried).

I want sex with my wife...but this is new ground for me. I am not denying her anymore, but she understands the problem and has backed off.


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## Howdoifixit (Nov 24, 2009)

For me I have found the idea of sex with my wife disgusting at the moment. the wounds are obviously only fresh for me but i understand what you are saying. Some guys do see sex on the emotional level and if your not there yet it just wont happen.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

The wife and I went out to a dinner party last night. She waffled at first about going, giving me excuses. Normally I would have just let her get out of it, but this time I told her she was going.

Afterwards, she thanked me and said she had a great time.


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## stupidme (Nov 15, 2009)

Sven, when reading your first post, my first impression was even though you said you had forgiven you wife, I believe that subconciously, you did not, from your actions. I admire you for your patience, you have an unimaginable wealth of patience that carried you through her affairs and I hope your patience will pay off in the long run to improve and sustain your marriage.

I'm glad to read that you're going into the right direction of rebuilding your marriage. Now, I'm believing you're in the process of forgiving your wife.

Thank you for your post regarding seeing a lawyer. When I finally put my foot down, he finally woke up and realized what he truly got and didn't want to lose it.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

A little update:

First, I accept that I haven't totally forgiven her because you guys see it. That's my intention. She thinks she's not totally forgiven also. What else can I do? I'm just moving on.

We had a knock down drag out fight this past weekend because she lied to one of our kids, who called her out on it, and I took her side. When I found out about the lie I told her to move out if she can't tell the truth.

IF YOU CHEATED ON YOUR SPOUSE YOU CAN NEVER TELL ANOTHER LIE.

That cannot be more crystal clear, I don't care the reason. Just don't do it.

I'm frustrated as Hell that every single member of my family - wife, kids, mother, brother, sister, etc. ALL LIE TO ME and it pisses me off. I'm the only one in the family who tells the truth.

Here I am doing things the right way - don't do drugs, don't break the law, virgin when married, faithful to wife, blah blah blah. I feel like a fool...like I'm the only human being to actual behave that way.

Anyway, our favorite date seems to be pizza and a beer so we did that last night and she enjoyed it. She is still telling me "I'm going to start a diet." "I'm going to stop taking Lexapro." "I promise not to let the kids run over me." And never does it. Typical. I love her, but she has four years and then I'm off this roller coaster, either by her leveling off or me leaving.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Sven, this is the healthiest thing you've written. You are right: Cheating means you give up lying, commit to making it right with your partner, and stop acting like a selfish child. This is a really good stance for you to take.

Except the last paragraph. She doesn't get four years. She should get four years if she earns it by doing the stuff a wayward spouse needs to do.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Thanks, but I've got kids to think about too. They'll be out in four years. And I'd really rather stay married. So she gets plenty of time to work on her issues.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

I understand your position Sven, I have four kids myself and the last thing I wanted was for my family to break up. Why do you think the kids will be out in four years? Are you planning on kicking them out? Many kids stay with their parents well into their 20's, especially if they are in university. It seems like an arbitrary number.


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## MrKreevil (Dec 1, 2009)

staying in a marriage for the kids sake is always a terrible idea. if you think that they don't pick up on or are affected by animosity, tension, frustration, and pain then you are very foolish. If children see you actively working and no matter what avenue you take to fix it lands you at another dead end then show them your strength and independence to reclaim your life, and get divorced. Continue to be a good father, and still respect their mother. if you do those things then your kids will most likely have a great deal more respect for you then if they thought you drug them through a miserable childhood because of them. (disclaimer: not trying to offend)


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## peacefully (Nov 13, 2009)

Sven, I can only speak from my personal experience, as I have no children of my own.
My parents had a very unhappy marriage, but "stayed together for my brothers and I". All this did for us was to give us a view of two very unhappy people in an unhappy relationship. They didn't openly fight, which actually made it worse as all of the tension was under the surface and it became a toxic household. 
There was also the added guilt of knowing that our parents remained unhappy "for us". This is something that I've had to work on in therapy as an adult as I blamed myself for my parents unhappiness in many ways. I see now, that our parents used us as an excuse to not have to deal with divorcing and the inconvenience of being "single parents". 

(I put that in quotes, as I don't think that they would have been single parents, that would imply that there was only one parent in the picture. When I hear women talk about being "single parents" and then they call their EXH's to pick up the kids or do some family thing, I think, that is not being a single parent. A single parent is a parent that does not have another parent in the picture!).

I would have much preferred that they divorced at a younger age and met new partners that they could have been happy with. For selfish reasons, it would have caused me much less worry and guilt.

My point is, don't blame the kids for your choice to stay in an unhappy and unfixable marriage.


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## whyminvrsatsfd (Nov 28, 2009)

Mr Kree is absolutely correct and seekin san., its definitely arbitrary because he's using the kids as an excuse to stay. I honestly read all four pages of the threads. And one specific thread stuck out....svev: your father was an alcoholic. Children of alcoholics are enablers, codependent, and have very low low self esteem. Alcoholics are jekyll and hyde. Theyre broken and the kids walk on eggshells and tiptoe as to not make matters worse. You never know what will happen day to day. Into adulthood, you attract people that you enable and cater to...without even realizing it. Cause if you grew up doing it, youre comfortable with it...its like home. You think, if you wait, whomever will change. A cheater is a liar. Plain and simple. The pain of being alone consumes you, and the anxiety of change and feeling that deep pain and emptiness will definitely keep you there. What youre teaching your girls is to STAY...no matter how much he hits her or cheats on her, or makes her feel sad and lonely, she has to stay and wait for him to "change". They need the example of a parent that takes charge of their happiness, not letting someone else control it. Can you turn an orange to a red color? No...it is what it is!! You will always have the "scar" as you call it...but could you look at the or live with the criminal that cut you with the knife?? No you couldnt and you definitely couldnt have sex with that person. You really have to soul search...whats good for you?? Some people that have infidelity in their marriage divorce. The pain of the divorce does take some time, but it does heal and the peace of mind and self esteem return. But some people stay in a marriage with infidelity, they never trust again...no peace of mind, and theyre always reminded...by something, even if its just looking at the spouse. See for yourself, keep a journal of your mood for like 6 months. And be completely honest...its for you! Thats about 180 days. If 169 days, youre hurt, or insecure or unsure or angry...is your life worth being unhappy 8/9ths of the time??


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

seeking sanity said:


> I understand your position Sven, I have four kids myself and the last thing I wanted was for my family to break up. Why do you think the kids will be out in four years? Are you planning on kicking them out? Many kids stay with their parents well into their 20's, especially if they are in university. It seems like an arbitrary number.


First off - thanks so much for the ongoing responses. This has been helpful beyond belief to me. I'll take these one at a time...

Yeah, they are gone after high school. They can go live in a dorm at the university.

My wife and I love each other very much and want to make this work. We don't cuss and fight all the time. In fact, I'd say that we rarely argue now that we are fighting to keep the marriage. The problem is my wife pushed me to the point of accepting the possibility of divorce and I do not appreciate that she has physically let herself go - not just overweight, but disabled parking, bad on the knees and can't hardly walk out of shape. I face my retirement years with the thought of pushing her around in a wheelchair.

If she didn't have the affair and this happened, then I'd stick it out "for better or worse." But not now. She hates herself and this is self-punishment. It needs to end.

The only other possibility is setting an earlier deadline, like next summer. I don't know...maybe.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

MrKreevil said:


> staying in a marriage for the kids sake is always a terrible idea. if you think that they don't pick up on or are affected by animosity, tension, frustration, and pain then you are very foolish. If children see you actively working and no matter what avenue you take to fix it lands you at another dead end then show them your strength and independence to reclaim your life, and get divorced. Continue to be a good father, and still respect their mother. if you do those things then your kids will most likely have a great deal more respect for you then if they thought you drug them through a miserable childhood because of them. (disclaimer: not trying to offend)


Thanks for trying not to offend. We are blunt around here (check out my response to you in the other thread).

See my comments above. Home life is peaceful. We try to be loving, but physical contact is hard for me. The last two time we had sex (back in March) it went badly and I just don't want to experience that again. She needs to show me that she wants to save the marriage by fixing her problems.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

peacefully said:


> Sven, I can only speak from my personal experience, as I have no children of my own.
> My parents had a very unhappy marriage, but "stayed together for my brothers and I". All this did for us was to give us a view of two very unhappy people in an unhappy relationship. They didn't openly fight, which actually made it worse as all of the tension was under the surface and it became a toxic household.
> There was also the added guilt of knowing that our parents remained unhappy "for us". This is something that I've had to work on in therapy as an adult as I blamed myself for my parents unhappiness in many ways. I see now, that our parents used us as an excuse to not have to deal with divorcing and the inconvenience of being "single parents".
> 
> ...



I can't speak for others' experiences. The kids are teenagers and are aware of what happened and our ongoing work. They want us to be successful.

I love my wife. No matter how many times I type it on this forum it doesn't seem to pick up. I've forgiven her and that's means FORGIVE. (yes, I know you guys say I haven't). I believe that she loves me and when it came time to divorce she had a nervous breakdown at the thought of it happening.

She just wanted to play around and have fun, but still keep the marriage.

Anyway, I'm in no mood to drop divorce papers on her. I *WANT* the marriage to work.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

whyminvrsatsfd said:


> Mr Kree is absolutely correct and seekin san., its definitely arbitrary because he's using the kids as an excuse to stay. I honestly read all four pages of the threads. And one specific thread stuck out....svev: your father was an alcoholic. Children of alcoholics are enablers, codependent, and have very low low self esteem. Alcoholics are jekyll and hyde. Theyre broken and the kids walk on eggshells and tiptoe as to not make matters worse. You never know what will happen day to day. Into adulthood, you attract people that you enable and cater to...without even realizing it. Cause if you grew up doing it, youre comfortable with it...its like home. You think, if you wait, whomever will change. A cheater is a liar. Plain and simple. The pain of being alone consumes you, and the anxiety of change and feeling that deep pain and emptiness will definitely keep you there. What youre teaching your girls is to STAY...no matter how much he hits her or cheats on her, or makes her feel sad and lonely, she has to stay and wait for him to "change". They need the example of a parent that takes charge of their happiness, not letting someone else control it. Can you turn an orange to a red color? No...it is what it is!! You will always have the "scar" as you call it...but could you look at the or live with the criminal that cut you with the knife?? No you couldnt and you definitely couldnt have sex with that person. You really have to soul search...whats good for you?? Some people that have infidelity in their marriage divorce. The pain of the divorce does take some time, but it does heal and the peace of mind and self esteem return. But some people stay in a marriage with infidelity, they never trust again...no peace of mind, and theyre always reminded...by something, even if its just looking at the spouse. See for yourself, keep a journal of your mood for like 6 months. And be completely honest...its for you! Thats about 180 days. If 169 days, youre hurt, or insecure or unsure or angry...is your life worth being unhappy 8/9ths of the time??


That's exceptionally profound....I will pray on this.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Sven, I admire all you have shared, and hope you will take these observations in that spirit. 

First and foremost, I fear you are likely causing considerable damage to your kids by insisting "she started it" or "she caused all this." She had the affair, but the affair is the symptom, not the problem (so what you are insisting on telling them is not the truth). Much more important, however, is the IMPACT on the kids of being expected to "blame" one parent and expected to hold the other parent "blameless." This is known as "splitting" the kids (forcing them to choose, if only in their minds or behaviors). It is absolutely the WORST thing for kids. Please read up on what children need to hear and what they DON'T need to hear.

Second, and related--I don't see you accepting ANY responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage. She would not have had an affair if the marriage was happy and intact. This does NOT excuse her affair--she should have confronted you and worked on the marriage, or she should have left. The affair is entirely on her. But the health of the marriage was the responsibility of BOTH of you. If you wait until you feel complete forgiveness to work on the marriage, it may be too late. You should be working on the issues that lead to the breakdown of the marriage WHILE healing over the affair--and your work may hasten your forgiveness (but she has no right to privacy; you may be learning to love her and communicate better, but you still won't trust her; that's ok and she needs to accept that for however long it takes to build trust.)

Finally, please think about why people lie to you--you may be perceived as judgmental and unforgiving or unwilling to hear the truth. Kids lie to avoid conflict with their parents--it's usually why spouses lie to one another, too; it's why most people lie. Your response to your family does not justify their lying--they are taking the cowardly way out (as your wife did with her affair). You can help them learn to change their behavior if you learn to respond to them more calmly and openly, or with less evident disappoint, or with whatever message you may be conveying. If you encourage them to risk conflict with you by responding in thoughtful ways and handling any conflict with good communication skills, you will be teaching them how to handle conflict appropriately themselves and, equally important, you will be teaching them that conflict is not so scary. You want your kids to be able to negotiate conflict with their own spouses, so you need to teach them that. I have no idea whether or not this will seem useful to you, but I'm responding to some specifics you have given as well as the overall sense of who you are which your comments give. For example, you say that the way you do/did things is "right," but frankly, I disagree with you on some of those things. I do not believe that remaining a virgin until married is a good thing at all. You also indicate you see things as absolutes (black and white). If you assume you are "right" and everyone else is "wrong," there will be tremendous conflict--or, a lot of lying to avoid it. Living with someone who cannot accept another's point of view, labels it as 'wrong," and has the power--as a parent or spouse--to punish those who are "wrong" (either punish as in, grounding kids, or punishing by expressing disapproval in a way that suggests you don't love them as much for being "wrong" and for disagreeing with you) must be very, very difficult. You want your children to have your values, but they are independent human beings who will make their own choices, and if they feel you won't love them despite those choices, then they feel abandoned b/c they know they don't agree with you, so their only choice is to try to live according to your rules (which they do not believe in), or lie, OR lose your love. Parenting is extremely difficult work, and probably the single most important thing you can give your kids (in my personal experience and judgment) is unconditional love--and respect for their right to be an individual, to be someone separate who will make his/her own choices and his/her own mistake. Your kids may know you will ground them for a month if they break their curfew, but they also need to know that you still love them. Otherwise, they will grow away from you as they grow older, and they will feel orphaned even when they are not. 

Someone close to me once told me that they failed to get in to a specific college, and the parents were mad and said, "Why should we love you if you disappoint us?" Substitute any failure or mistake a kid makes, and you'll see perhaps, how awfully painful it would be to be a kid in that position. 

Also, ask yourself this: You believed that one should remain a virgin until married. Perhaps your kid(s) won't. How does that hurt YOU? It might disappoint you, but it does not mean your kids love you any less-they made a choice for their own life, not yours. If you raise them well, their choices may cause them some pain (which is painful for us parents to see, of course), but they will do no permanent harm to anyone and, with your continued love and support, they'll learn from their mistakes. Just don't turn your love and support in to a lot of lectures; they've heard it, they know it, and they hate that! "I don't agree with your choices because I believed they would cause you pain, and yeah, I was right, and you'll be grounded for breaking a family rule, but I still love you so let me comfort you as best I can." That's all that needs to be said to a young adult unless they ask for more advice. And, if you show them this kind of love, they will come to you for advice when they leave high school and discover that they DON'T know everything. 

So, take what you can and ignore all the rest. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

> She would not have had an affair if the marriage was happy and intact.


This is absolutely UNTRUE. People in good marriages have affairs all the time. I don't know if YOUR marriage was good, but this is totally inaccurate. Read "Not Just Friends", it's one the of the best books on infidelity written, and based on research, not conjecture.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Thank you so much for the response.

This will be long...



sisters359 said:


> Sven, I admire all you have shared, and hope you will take these observations in that spirit.


I've re-opened some wounds by doing this, but also found new perspectives and the overall experience of this forum discussion (both providing and receiving advice) has been helpful.





sisters359 said:


> First and foremost, I fear you are likely causing considerable damage to your kids by insisting "she started it" or "she caused all this." She had the affair, but the affair is the symptom, not the problem (so what you are insisting on telling them is not the truth). Much more important, however, is the IMPACT on the kids of being expected to "blame" one parent and expected to hold the other parent "blameless." This is known as "splitting" the kids (forcing them to choose, if only in their minds or behaviors). It is absolutely the WORST thing for kids. Please read up on what children need to hear and what they DON'T need to hear.


She desperately wanted to keep the affair a secret. AND HERE IS AN IMPORTANT POINT - I DID NOT BELIEVE DIVORCE TO BE AN OPTION. I can't stress that enough...it's fundamental to who I am. I was staring divorce in the face and knew, maybe selfishly, that I did not want anyone thinking that divorce was my idea. I told my wife "The whole family knows how I feel about divorce, so if we get divorced they'll know why." (There's one exception - adultery.)

I was at my wits end with her telling me the affair was over but it not being true. So I had her tell the kids. They are teenagers and needed to know why mom was choosing to cheat on her marriage and cost them a two-parent home. It was going to be discussed and I wanted them to hear it from her. I still think that was the right decision.



sisters359 said:


> Second, and related--I don't see you accepting ANY responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage. She would not have had an affair if the marriage was happy and intact. This does NOT excuse her affair--she should have confronted you and worked on the marriage, or she should have left. The affair is entirely on her. But the health of the marriage was the responsibility of BOTH of you.


The very first thing I did upon finding out about the affair was try to fix ME. I believe we can only control ourselves...so I took the angle that I must have failed her in some way.

That was a foolish move on my part. It just enabled her to continue the affair. I realize now that all marriages have problems - the issue is how couples deal with them. Adultery is forbidden and there is no excuse for it.

That said - I'm still trying hard to be a better husband.



sisters359 said:


> If you wait until you feel complete forgiveness to work on the marriage, it may be too late. You should be working on the issues that lead to the breakdown of the marriage WHILE healing over the affair--and your work may hasten your forgiveness (but she has no right to privacy; you may be learning to love her and communicate better, but you still won't trust her; that's ok and she needs to accept that for however long it takes to build trust.)


I still take the position that I've forgiven her, but accept the wisdom of others that I haven't. I don't know what else to do, so I'm just 'putting my head down and moving forward'.

For many, many months, I took the stance that I did not want to discuss the affair anymore. It just seemed to hinder the healing process. But I learned that my wife still wanted to discuss it and me putting a wall up was hurting her.

Yes it hurt me to keep bringing it up again, but it was what she needed as she has not forgiven herself yet. (And I totally trust her now, by the way.)



sisters359 said:


> Finally, please think about why people lie to you--you may be perceived as judgmental and unforgiving or unwilling to hear the truth. Kids lie to avoid conflict with their parents--it's usually why spouses lie to one another, too; it's why most people lie.


You nailed that one.



sisters359 said:


> Your response to your family does not justify their lying--they are taking the cowardly way out (as your wife did with her affair). You can help them learn to change their behavior if you learn to respond to them more calmly and openly, or with less evident disappoint, or with whatever message you may be conveying. If you encourage them to risk conflict with you by responding in thoughtful ways and handling any conflict with good communication skills, you will be teaching them how to handle conflict appropriately themselves and, equally important, you will be teaching them that conflict is not so scary.


My kids know that I love them no matter what they do, and that if they tell me the truth they will not get in trouble. That's a tough policy to implement, but I stick to it because I believe honesty is so important.



sisters359 said:


> You want your kids to be able to negotiate conflict with their own spouses, so you need to teach them that. I have no idea whether or not this will seem useful to you, but I'm responding to some specifics you have given as well as the overall sense of who you are which your comments give. For example, you say that the way you do/did things is "right," but frankly, I disagree with you on some of those things. I do not believe that remaining a virgin until married is a good thing at all. You also indicate you see things as absolutes (black and white). If you assume you are "right" and everyone else is "wrong," there will be tremendous conflict--or, a lot of lying to avoid it. Living with someone who cannot accept another's point of view, labels it as 'wrong," and has the power--as a parent or spouse--to punish those who are "wrong" (either punish as in, grounding kids, or punishing by expressing disapproval in a way that suggests you don't love them as much for being "wrong" and for disagreeing with you) must be very, very difficult. You want your children to have your values, but they are independent human beings who will make their own choices, and if they feel you won't love them despite those choices, then they feel abandoned b/c they know they don't agree with you, so their only choice is to try to live according to your rules (which they do not believe in), or lie, OR lose your love. Parenting is extremely difficult work, and probably the single most important thing you can give your kids (in my personal experience and judgment) is unconditional love--and respect for their right to be an individual, to be someone separate who will make his/her own choices and his/her own mistake. Your kids may know you will ground them for a month if they break their curfew, but they also need to know that you still love them. Otherwise, they will grow away from you as they grow older, and they will feel orphaned even when they are not.


There's a lot there....you got me on the "black and white" thing. That frustrates my wife to no end. As for the "virgin until married"...I'm sorry but this forum is full of people who were not virgins when they got married who are having the same problems as me. It think it was a lack of maturity on my part that hurt the marriage.

As for disciplining the kids, this is a major source of conflict in my house. My wife is a PUSHOVER to the kids. If I lay the law down, they just go to her and she lets them get around it. There is no way for me to enforce discipline on my youngest and it's causing a lot of strife in the house.

My wife has been a champion at saying NO to me for 21 years...but not to anyone else.




sisters359 said:


> Someone close to me once told me that they failed to get in to a specific college, and the parents were mad and said, "Why should we love you if you disappoint us?" Substitute any failure or mistake a kid makes, and you'll see perhaps, how awfully painful it would be to be a kid in that position.


I agree that the example you give is ridiculous. I will love my kids no matter what and they know it. As a God-fearing man, I'm also aware that our station in life is not what's important - it's what we do while we're here that is....



sisters359 said:


> Also, ask yourself this: You believed that one should remain a virgin until married. Perhaps your kid(s) won't. How does that hurt YOU? It might disappoint you, but it does not mean your kids love you any less-they made a choice for their own life, not yours. If you raise them well, their choices may cause them some pain (which is painful for us parents to see, of course), but they will do no permanent harm to anyone and, with your continued love and support, they'll learn from their mistakes. Just don't turn your love and support in to a lot of lectures; they've heard it, they know it, and they hate that! "I don't agree with your choices because I believed they would cause you pain, and yeah, I was right, and you'll be grounded for breaking a family rule, but I still love you so let me comfort you as best I can." That's all that needs to be said to a young adult unless they ask for more advice. And, if you show them this kind of love, they will come to you for advice when they leave high school and discover that they DON'T know everything.


We've discussed sex with our girls many times, and it's going to continue to be an ongoing discussion. They know that their mother was not a virgin and I was when we married. I've told them, from my point of view, what I believe and they it's their decision - not mine. We have also discussed the consquences. I will not raise a grandchild. There are many people in this neighborhood who are raising a grandchild instead of enjoying an empty nest. I'm not doing it. If my kids give birth before they turn 18, the child is going up for adoption. There are far too many couples out there who can't have children for me to think this anything but the best path for everyone involved.[/QUOTE]



sisters359 said:


> So, take what you can and ignore all the rest. Just my 2 cents worth.


Thanks again so much. I'm listening. (Which is a very good thing for a husband to do in a marriage, by the way!)


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

seeking sanity said:


> This is absolutely UNTRUE. People in good marriages have affairs all the time. I don't know if YOUR marriage was good, but this is totally inaccurate. Read "Not Just Friends", it's one the of the best books on infidelity written, and based on research, not conjecture.


You're one of the wisest posters here. I believe you. The circumstances of my wife's affair began with the other guy making advances on her. At first I thought he was mostly responsible, but realized that it took "two to tango" and she could have stopped him in his tracks if she wanted to.

When people comment on my situation they should also understand that my wife is mentally ill. I'm not making that up - she was committed to a psychiatric hospital and is now under a doctor's care.

She punishes herself. It's very sad to watch her do this and not be able to stop it.


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## whyminvrsatsfd (Nov 28, 2009)

Sven,
From reading your posts and responses to others' posts, I dont think you are perceiving yourself as "always right". I think you have taken this situation and definitely tried to look at all perspectives and "change" your stance appropriately. Hopefully your family can heal from this and the more information you gather and accept, the more understanding you'll have of your situation. Good luck and quick healing!!


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

We had a good weekend, ending with what is becoming a weekend tradition - pizza and beer at the sports bar. We sit and talk - away from the kids - and leave feeling really good about each other.


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## AZMOMOFTWO (Jun 30, 2008)

Sven,
I don't agree with some of the posts here. I actually completely understand your story and your reactions to it and I don't see you as trying to punish her. You can't help it if she isn't able to or you are not attracted to her. At this point, she does not seem to care about herself. I think your mindset and mine are a lot alike. Even as you wrote this, you tried to rationalize and find the "answer", then how those fit with your fundamental beliefs. Problem was your whole foundation had just been ripped out from under you. Reading your story gave me some peace. I don't know why, because the pain I feel is something I wish no one else had to feel. I felt yours as I read your story and I am so sorry this happened to you. 

I do not believe your wife has a mental illness though. I think she lives with a tremendous amount of guilt and shame and that caused a mental breakdown and depression. It also must have been stressful hiding the affair and being fearful of you finding out for 15 months. I'm giving her no sympathy but I think a big difference between mental illness and her actions causing her own breakdown. 

Our story is somewhat similar to yours, we got together as a couple years before you and had our kids a bit later. We also struggled with a health issue with our youngest. Due to undiagnosed hypoglycemia and severe allergies our little boy was having seizures and other major issues. A big difference was that I dealt with this ALONE and through mother's instinct, perserverence, and a lot of tears I solved his issues through finding the right medical professionals. Today he is a perfectly healthy, highly intelligent little boy who has to avoid certain foods. While I was working on this sex dropped off to once a week or maybe every 10 days...I was strung out on daycares calling me to pick him up and scared to death that there was something really wrong with him. He was kicked out of 9 daycares in 18months (and the poor baby was 3) had even been slapped by a daycare instructor. Alone I dealt while he had an affair. All the while working 10-12 hour days to make up for the business he was losing due to the economic downturn. I'm a contractor, I simpy took on more clients to pay the bills and the healthcare (which was out of pocket my health ins. covers only major medical). 

So when I confronted him about his affair he denied it but told me he probably did not want to be married to me anymore and it had nothing to do with her, they were just friends. I asked him why and he said that I never spend time with him (I resisted the urge to laugh here!), he feels he has to do all the work around the house, too much care with the kids! (this had no basis, he was out with her when I'd put them to bed and they just wanted Daddy to kiss them goodnight), and he was in the best shape of his life and I really didn't care about my appearance (I was as you described "casual" and at this point barely had time to do anything) and had the same hairstyle for 10 years. He denied the affair. Then I snooped in his computer found the emails and told him to get out, changed the locks I was done (I too share your Christian beliefs, I do not believe in divorce either except for unfaithfulness or abuse). 

Another departure from your situation was that ended the affair right there. We did reconcile and he admits and said he was a jerk for what he said to me and he was not himself (very true, he was always a really good Dad who loved spending time with his kids but not then. And he was angry and depressed. Possibly midlife criis but no excuse). 

But its interesting about the physical changes. I'd committed to getting in shape, my son is well on track with his health and I could do this for me (ironically guilt at taking time fo myself was what prevented me from working out). When I began to get in shape, the world treated me differently. I am 40 and looked 40 at that time, but in the last several months I have been asked for ID at restaurants. It changed my attitude though too. I am more fun and outgoing than before. I even like me better than before. I love buying clothes now too so that's not had a good affect on the pocket book but oh well! 

My H also worked on his appearance during the A. He actually was always in good shape but his job fits in to this, he does very physical work. He's a very good looking guy too but he never cared about clothes or hair. I should have known when he bought new clothes and even dyed his hair. He looked great, and I knew it made him feel great so I was happy for him....didn't realize he did it for her. Now that the A is over, hair has gone back to the old way and he doesn't work out (except sometimes to encourage me, runs with me). Its a small change and I love him either way but I think, why did he do it for her and not me? 

I wonder though, what about trying to get your wife to do something physical with you? Is she confined to the wheelchair or can she walk? If not walk, then swimming. Most people can do that, it takes all the stress off. Start getting in to really health cooking, finding tasty recipes low in carbs and calories as an interest and make them together? Help her get back but by doing so you reconnect. We have done this, we play on a volleball team and the positive side affects are we have a great time, have reconnected and made some great friends while staying in shape. Start small with what she can do so she doesn't get discouraged. 

You can only help those who want to be helped. If she just doesn't know how to get back to where she was physically and emotionally she will respond. If she doesn't want to then you can't make her but then you know you have tried and that is all you can do. 

Thank you for telling your story and I hope and pray things work out for you.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Update:

We're still together.

We're actually doing well. She's been off the meds for over a year and has been taking care of herself. She's also immersed herself in the kids' lives, so that's keeping her pretty busy.

The subject of the affair NEVER comes up anymore.

I lost my job in 2010 and she's been very supportive of my job issues, which has been tough. But I'm working again, so that's good.

I also joined a band. When I said my goal was to have a wife and family - I also knew that I'd never get what I wanted as a poor musician, so I gave up music and jumped into the corporate world. After being laid off, I decided that 25 years had gone by and now I needed to do something for me. I tried out for a Joan Jett tribute band and made it! We play shows 2-4 times a month. My wife will come to the ones where there's no smoking and we have a good time.

So it appears we're good to go. I'd say all's well that ends well. However, I wouldn't wish this experience on anyone. It's a rough ride.


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## oldmittens (Dec 2, 2011)

I just finished reading your thread. You had a difficult time with reconciliation but you stuck with it and succeeded and for that I congratulate you.

Just curious about one thing though did you and your wife ever discuss why she had an affair. I went through your thread and I couldn't find any mention of why she did it and I was just wondering did you ask? did you not care? has she refused tell you? If the last one is true then you're truly not in recovery and need to get her to open up.


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