# protecting my wife from reality?



## e.p. (Jun 10, 2011)

I love my wife. As a good friend of mine put it to me today, I've "protected" her in this sense: I don't admit to her I find other women attractive. She doesn't know I masturbate. She doesn't know I look at pornography. (both the masturbation and pornography to replace sex she doesn't want to have. I never masturbate to avoid sex)

I was talking to a therapist last year (due to brothers' suicide) and some of that time was spent discussing my relationship with my wife. The therapist said she doesn't advocate lying but she also understood why I do these things to please/protect my wife. Her suggestion was to try and open her eyes to get her to be more sexually open; I might be surprised with a more mature wife who would appreciate, or at least understand, my male impulses. This has yet to happen.

My question is simply this: should I say something when I see an attractive woman? Should I tell her I'm going to masturbate if she doesn't want sex? Should I somehow breach the subject of porn? I don't like the idea of hiding these aspects of myself from her and part of me thinks that although I was doing this to protect her, maybe facing a few harsh arguments over it would be better for our relationship (am I right or wrong in thinking that?)

thanks,

-e.p.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

e.p. said:


> My question is simply this: should I say something when I see an attractive woman? Should I tell her I'm going to masturbate if she doesn't want sex? Should I somehow breach the subject of porn? I don't like the idea of hiding these aspects of myself from her and part of me thinks that although I was doing this to protect her, maybe facing a few harsh arguments over it would be better for our relationship (am I right or wrong in thinking that?)
> 
> thanks,
> 
> -e.p.


I wouldn't advocate telling her when you see another attractive woman. I would instead advocate treating her like she is the most attractive woman to you.

On the masturbation issue, way back when a long time ago when my H and I were in the first years of our marriage, he would ask me if I would participate with him in his masturbation - him doing it, me holding him, no pressure to participate. I think he wanted me to be able to get more in tune with his sexuality since we had such differing drives. I would say that it did help me, but it has to be something that she agrees to. Don't have any comments on the porn issue, as unbelievably, it is not something we have had to address. Even though I was a lot lower libido than my H, I have always had an open door policy and was willing whenever he wanted to.

I don't think it's bad to let your wife know and ask for her participation, but just don't pressure her and try and start opening her eyes slowly. For some women - especially if they are not all that experienced with men - being confronted with a man's sexuality can be quite daunting (and it likely is daunting for men too because they do feel they need to hide these things from their wives). If she is that kind of person, you will just need to take it slow with her, but I don't advocate hiding these aspects of your sexuality from her. I do also advocate that you educate yourself about women's sexuality, so you can also gain an acceptance of her sexuality and viewpoints as well.


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## e.p. (Jun 10, 2011)

Thanks Enchantment,



Enchantment said:


> I wouldn't advocate telling her when you see another attractive woman. I would instead advocate treating her like she is the most attractive woman to you.


I guess I said that poorly, my intent was if she asks me "did you notice her" or if a comparison is apt should I bring it up or hide it. I do treat her as a queen.



Enchantment said:


> On the masturbation issue, way back when a long time ago when my H and I were in the first years of our marriage, he would ask me if I would participate with him in his masturbation ...


Interesting. If I get shot down or she's on the rag, I masturbate but I hide it. Again I don't want to argue and I don't want to hurt her feelings. If she doesn't want some, that's fine, but I have needs too. I feel like we often err on the side of her comfort as opposed to mine.



Enchantment said:


> For some women - especially if they are not all that experienced with men - being confronted with a man's sexuality can be quite daunting.


I was a virgin till our wedding day whereas she had partners prior to me. If anything I figured she might be more than I could handle but it is very much the opposite. She dislikes giving or receiving oral sex, doesn't like me touching her genitals, describes her vagina as icky/yucky/stinky etc. very juvenile descriptors.

Which is part of the reason I've always hid masterbating/porn/acknowledging other women as sexual creatures because she's insecure about herself (at least as far as I can conjecture based on her actions) and insecure around other women (again derived from her actions).

-e.p.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

e.p. said:


> I guess I said that poorly, my intent was if she asks me "did you notice her" or if a comparison is apt should I bring it up or hide it. I do treat her as a queen.


Answer: Yes I saw her. Obviously she had a certain attractiveness. But you my dear are my ideal woman, beautiful on the outside and the inside.

Do not point out attractive other women to your wife, but answer as above if she points something out.



e.p. said:


> Interesting. If I get shot down or she's on the rag, I masturbate but I hide it. Again I don't want to argue and I don't want to hurt her feelings. If she doesn't want some, that's fine, but I have needs too. I feel like we often err on the side of her comfort as opposed to mine.


I would not hide it. If she turns you down, I would get up an go to the bathroom and do it. If she says anything you point out that you are sexual and you have needs and if she rejects you will turn to masturbation. If she asks about porn, admit to it saying that you are sexual and you have needs, but would be far more interested in having sex with her than masturbating to porn.

I would not go out of my way to tell her all of this like dropping a bomb, but I would not hide it or act embarassed if she asks about it.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

You didn't mention if you've tried speaking to your wife about lack of sex. I think this might be the fair starting point - just so she knows that there is an issue. What your needs are (and we know they are NEEDS), and then what your desires are. That way, if she refuses sex and you take care of yourself she has the background. Also give her a chance to explain why she's turning you down (if you want to go there). This sounds all pretty simple, but my wife of 19 years recently said to me 'you seem to get a bit edgy if we haven't had sex for a few days.' As if there was something wrong with me (besides having a penis). I was thinking WTF - you're a 49 year old woman and you didn't know this about men???


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

e.p. said:


> My question is simply this: should I say something when I see an attractive woman?
> 
> *I don't do that. My wife usually takes me off the hook and points it out for me. She knows I am a man. She also knows I will not disrespect her by drawing attention to another woman. maybe she is testing me, but it works out fine. I would not say wow she is hot I need to go masturbate. Just sayin. If she points out a woman showing a lot of breast I usually acknowledge it but may followup with how much I love hers.*
> 
> ...


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## e.p. (Jun 10, 2011)

jayde said:


> You didn't mention if you've tried speaking to your wife about lack of sex. I think this might be the fair starting point - just so she knows that there is an issue. What your needs are (and we know they are NEEDS), and then what your desires are.


We have several times. It always ends in an argument with her crying and stating things like "I'm sorry I'm not good enough for you" "you just see me as a piece of meat" or the infamous "you want me to be like (a mutual female friend) who has a high sex drive!" 

When I do broach the subject I always try to emphasize it's not just sex. It's intimate touches. Kissing. Cuddling on the couch. Ass grabs. Any physical sign of love / lust / attraction. I initiate all of the kissing/cuddling/touches she very rarely initiates with me. I want to see her love and desire for me and sex is just one facet of that.

She's gotten better in the sense that she rarely says no, but never initiates. However if she isn't in the mood you can tell because she's limp like a rag doll and waiting for me to finish...

-e.p.


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## e.p. (Jun 10, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> This is a little tougher in my view. How about some baby steps above first. The above gets her used to the idea that you have sexual feelings as any man has. Is porn real important to you?


I find it enjoyable when she makes herself unavailable or when I know my advances are not welcome. It is no substitute for her. It merely, how shall we say, greases the skids for masturbation.

-e.p.


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

I don't think you should let your wife know you find other women attractive because she may feel threatened or hurt if you point that out. Rest assured, she finds other men attractive other than you, and I'm sure she doesn't feel the need to point that out to you.

I would let her know you masturbate and look at porn. I would ask her if she would ever be interested in looking at it with you. Tell her you look at it from time to time and it turns you on. Tell her that you sometimes masturbate and that most men do. If she freaks out, just explain that it's natural. 

I would not make it out to be a big deal or that you were hiding this from her. Just mention it casually and I'm sure she will deal with it. What you are doing is not wrong, so just remember that.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> My question is simply this: should I say something when I see an attractive woman? Should I tell her I'm going to masturbate if she doesn't want sex? Should I somehow breach the subject of porn?


I"m going to speak to you like I was a guy at a bar having a beer with you:


*ARE YOU KIDDING?!!!!*

No, of course you don't tell your wife that you find another woman attractive.

You only say, "I think only of you."

You also don't tell her you masturbate and look at porn and only think of baseball until you see her again.

Ya silly!

That therapist is totally off her rocker.

Now here. . .I'm buying the next one. . .I prefer Dos Equis myself.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

jayde said:


> This sounds all pretty simple, but my wife of 19 years recently said to me 'you seem to get a bit edgy if we haven't had sex for a few days.' As if there was something wrong with me (besides having a penis). I was thinking WTF - you're a 49 year old woman and you didn't know this about men???


Yep, believe it - unless you help educate your wife about your sexuality, she is likely not to understand. Women and men are different and believe me, most women are not going to understand what it feels like to have the levels of testosterone swimming through their veins like a man does. It took my husband to help educate me.


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## e.p. (Jun 10, 2011)

Scannerguard said:


> *ARE YOU KIDDING?!!!!*


Scannerguard, this is how I was born and raised, and how I've operated the seven and a half years of our marriage. No argument on my part... 



Scannerguard said:


> That therapist is totally off her rocker.
> Now here. . .I'm buying the next one. . .I prefer Dos Equis myself.


Yeah, she might be. She felt based on my description that my wife was sexually repressed and needed some help opening up, and that I needed to be honest with her to get her to be honest with me, etc. etc. 

And I'll have a whiskey on the rocks. Thanks.

-e.p.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

No No No. That therapist is wrong. If you tell her that you are probably going to hurt her. there are much better ways to work through her being repressed than that. Thats like deer hunting with dynamite.


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## Cotton_Candy_&_Bubblegum (Jul 7, 2011)

I don't think you should tell or let your wife know that you find other woman attractive... of course you do, and I'm sure she has seen an attractive man once or twice since you have been married.... but there is no need to discuss it unless its something that you two like to do together which in most couples case its not even if the woman says or initiates it like it is. 

Now regarding her talking bad about herself, sounds like she is self-conscious or has low self esteem... a few weeks back me and my husband got into a discussion on why he does not mention or verbally acknowledge my sexiness, how beautiful I am etc etc. I know he thinks I am, but i was wondering why he never communicates it..... he explained that in the past with girlfriends anytime he made comments on his girlfriends beauty she would eventually start criticizing herself so he stopped doing it completely.... So maybe see if you don't comment on her beauty if maybe her own attitude changes about that....


Regarding the masturbation... I see it as no big deal but your wife is her own woman. what I would do is bring up a what if question.... like one night before bed say "honey, what if I masturbated when your on your period, are you ok with that?" if yes than ask... would you like to know? watch? etc... 

Good Luck tell us how it goes.


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## Song (Jul 11, 2011)

Don't keep secrets from your wife ~ don't you believe that she would be adult enough to understand your needs? 

She looks at other men and finds them attractive, I guarantee you that you're not the only one looking around. And maybe she has a few secrets that she's hiding from you ~ 

Why not communicate your desires to her honestly, give her the time and attention you give to porn and hold her, talk to her, fondle her and foster intimacy instead. I think you might discover that your wife would have a new found interest in you and in you sexually.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Song said:


> Don't keep secrets from your wife ~ don't you believe that she would be adult enough to understand your needs?


Frankly I think a lot of people (men AND women) in this situation have strong reason to believe that their partner would NOT understand their needs. Something along the lines of
"Well, *I* don't _need_ it, so neither the hell should you!"



> She looks at other men and finds them attractive, I guarantee you that you're not the only one looking around. And maybe she has a few secrets that she's hiding from you ~
> 
> Why not communicate your desires to her honestly, give her the time and attention you give to porn and hold her, talk to her, fondle her and foster intimacy instead. I think you might discover that your wife would have a new found interest in you and in you sexually.


See the OP's words in post #7 above: been there, done that by the look of things. He can try as hard as he likes - unless she is willing to try to meet him at least part way, or at the very least have a decent, in depth conversation about why things are like this, nothing will change.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

You need to check out Athol Kay's blog at Married Man Sex Life for tons of great info for your problem.

To answer your questions, of course you don't point out attractive women to your wife unsolicited. You know that. However, you should absolutely be honest about acknowledging attractive women when your wife points them out to you. You are a man. Men are visual. Your wife knows that. Stop lying to her. She may be asking you in order to gauge your preferences for what she could do.

As for masturbation, that's a little trickier. The only reason you're doing it is because she's unwilling. That requires a more gentle approach. I don't think I would respond to her shooting you down by storming out and announcing that you're going to masturbate. I think I would just acknowledge it in conversation. If she asks if you do, say that of course you do. Most men do it. Keep it matter of fact. If she gets her feelings hurt, that's her problem for being silly.

Check out Athol's blog and institute the MAP before broaching porn. Your wife may be one of the women who flip out about porn as a form of cheating. I think you can steer your wife toward more sex and possibly eliminate your need for porn so that she never needs to know about it.

Basically, you need to start acting more masculine. If you act like a eunuch, she will treat you like one.

Good luck.


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## e.p. (Jun 10, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> You need to check out Athol Kay's blog at Married Man Sex Life for tons of great info for your problem.


Found it a few months back and have read the blog start to end. I actually chatted with Athol over email a few times. Nice guy. I do admit sliding towards Betatude over the past 7 years of marriage. Two years ago I started weightlifting and slowly but surely I have been incorporating aspects of game/MMSL into my marriage (I found Roissy first...).



PHTlump said:


> Your wife may be one of the women who flip out about porn as a form of cheating. I think you can steer your wife toward more sex and possibly eliminate your need for porn so that she never needs to know about it.


She does believe porn is cheating.

She has responded well to some aspects of MMSL specifically me being a leader and decisive. She has not responded well to any form of negging. She has not responded well to the 10 second kiss. I tried skittling her, also didn't go over very well.

-e.p.


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## e.p. (Jun 10, 2011)

Song said:


> Don't keep secrets from your wife ~ don't you believe that she would be adult enough to understand your needs?
> 
> She looks at other men and finds them attractive, I guarantee you that you're not the only one looking around. And maybe she has a few secrets that she's hiding from you ~


She claims with a straight face that she doesn't look at other men nor does she really look at me sexually. She said she thought I was cute when she met me but she just doesn't look at men 'that way'. I started weightlifting and I have really gotten in shape over the past two years. I get more compliments from her friends than I do from her!



Song said:


> Why not communicate your desires to her honestly, give her the time and attention you give to porn and hold her, talk to her, fondle her and foster intimacy instead. I think you might discover that your wife would have a new found interest in you and in you sexually.


Porn consumption is probably 10-20 minutes a week. It's merely a lubricant for masturbation, to speed up the process. I'm fortunate to get 10-20 minutes of sex out of her a week. She doesn't like to be touched 'down there', and going down on her is almost impossible without her telling me how icky her vagina is. Once the kids are in bed unless I intervene she is playing on the computer.

Those intimate touches you suggest would help. I initiate 90% of physical contact in our relationship from passing touches and kisses to cuddling during a movie and sex. I've asked her in the past to try and initiate those touches and it falls on deaf ears. Believe me, I am trying ....

-e.p.


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## e.p. (Jun 10, 2011)

Song said:


> Don't keep secrets from your wife ~





Sawney Beane said:


> Frankly I think a lot of people (men AND women) in this situation have strong reason to believe that their partner would NOT understand their needs. Something along the lines of
> "Well, *I* don't _need_ it, so neither the hell should you!"


You've nailed it on the head, and my question is really about walking the fine line between 'protecting her' from what she doesn't want to know and being an honest spouse. A mutual friend of ours feels I am being virtuous by protecting her, whereas my former therapist felt honesty (even if it means conflict) was more important for the health of the relationship. 

-e.p.


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

e.p. said:


> Interesting. If I get shot down or she's on the rag, I masturbate but I hide it. -e.p.


On the rag?? That is such a disgusting way to put it... my husband does that and I always tell him to knock it off


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

e.p. said:


> When I do broach the subject I always try to emphasize it's not just sex. It's intimate touches. Kissing. Cuddling on the couch. Ass grabs. Any physical sign of love / lust / attraction. I initiate all of the kissing/cuddling/touches she very rarely initiates with me. I want to see her love and desire for me and sex is just one facet of that.
> 
> -e.p.


But do you expect this to always lead to sex? My husband did, and so I found myself moving away from the intimate touch because he only did it when he wanted sex.


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## e.p. (Jun 10, 2011)

lisa3girls said:


> On the rag?? That is such a disgusting way to put it... my husband does that and I always tell him to knock it off


That's one of the phrases she uses with me; I wasn't looking to offend.



lisa3girls said:


> But do you expect this to always lead to sex? My husband did, and so I found myself moving away from the intimate touch because he only did it when he wanted sex.


Of course not. I kiss her in the morning when I leave and in the afternoon when I return from work. I don't expect her to start stripping then and there in either situation  The problem is, if I don't kiss her, she doesn't kiss me. Similarly with other innocent daily touches: snuggling, hand-holding, drive-by kisses and ass grabs. 

I'm not a very emotional guy but I do know those incidental touches add to the intimacy and overall health of a marriage.

-e.p.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Given that talking hasn't helped, I think you need to go further to destabilize your relationship. Start being more honest about noticing other women and masturbation. Don't bring up porn yet.

Put yourself in situations where other women will compliment you while your wife is around. Stop being the white knight reassuring your wife that you will only ever have eyes for her no matter how she treats you. I don't suggest ramping up overt flirting and suggesting you may leave her. But she should be wondering if, just maybe, a higher value woman might pull you away from her.

I wouldn't fixate on her initiating. It's a common complaint, but most women just honestly can't get there. If she were to ever start initiating, there's a good chance it would be the kind of "time for our Saturday night @10pm sex" kind of initiating that isn't what you're looking for. Sexually, women are naturally responders, not initiators. Just work on being more comfortable initiating and work on initiating in a fashion that she will respond better to.


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## e.p. (Jun 10, 2011)

Thanks for the advice, PHTlump.



PHTlump said:


> Given that talking hasn't helped, I think you need to go further to destabilize your relationship. ...
> Put yourself in situations where other women will compliment you while your wife is around ... But she should be wondering if, just maybe, a higher value woman might pull you away from her.


Thanks. The question is more or less how to pull this off, I'll have to get it some thought. Our social circles don't really intersect too often and when we go out it is generally as a family to a restaurant or activity. I guess just go with the flow and see what happens.

I'm in engineering so there is an unfair ratio of men to women at work, however I have gotten compliments a few times. It's just how do you convey that to your wife without sounding like a complete ass?



PHTlump said:


> I wouldn't fixate on her initiating. It's a common complaint, but most women just honestly can't get there. If she were to ever start initiating, there's a good chance it would be the kind of "time for our Saturday night @10pm sex" kind of initiating that isn't what you're looking for. Sexually, women are naturally responders, not initiators. Just work on being more comfortable initiating and work on initiating in a fashion that she will respond better to.


I agree and have come to this conclusion a number of times, I just wind up revisiting it ... and you are right her initiations are along the lines of coming up to me and asking "so do you need to have sex?" which is a turnoff but I never say no.

Recently I've went from hinting/asking for sex to just telling her we are having sex; being the Captain and issuing orders to the First Mate. She can (and has) asked for a reprieve at times and I allow for that but I think the tone makes it easier for her.

-e.p.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

e.p. said:


> Our social circles don't really intersect too often and when we go out it is generally as a family to a restaurant or activity. I guess just go with the flow and see what happens.


You just need to shake it up. Start going to concerts in the park or neighborhood gatherings. Something that couples or families will be welcome at, but there will be plenty of other women for you to interact with. School activities are good. Most of the moms are there. Many of the dads aren't.



e.p. said:


> I'm in engineering so there is an unfair ratio of men to women at work, however I have gotten compliments a few times. It's just how do you convey that to your wife without sounding like a complete ass?


I agree that you shouldn't walk in the door at the end of the day and triumphantly announce that a woman at work was flirting with you. Ideally, you let your wife see you talking to other women. Hopefully, the woman looks like she's enjoying herself and perhaps even does that unconscious touch her hair/your arm thing. It can be totally innocent, but the preselection effect should still work. If that's impractical, the next time you're going out socially, ask for your wife's help in finding a particular item of clothing. Tell her that the women at work tell you that it is very flattering. If she balks, play it off and tell her you'll be happy to wear something she finds flattering. You're just trying to look nice for her.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

According to your description she has some pretty big issues being comfortable with her own sexuality. I don't think anything you do or say will make that go away since it is most likely due to her childhood. However, I do think you can make the "symptoms" worse if you try to shock her out of it by looking at other women openly or talking about it. Anyway, nobody should have to ask permission to mastubate. That's a ridulous notion for either sex. Find out if she's willing to work on her issues by telling her you think she needs therapy. This is how you will find out what the rest of your marriage will be like sexually speaking.


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