# Husband is non-negotiable



## confusedinOK

Hello everyone,
I have been going through this issue ever since I got married 2 years ago; but it has just recently resurfaced and it's putting a strain on my marriage. Let me explain. My husband and I are from different states. We got married and moved to OK, because he found a better paying job and HE figured the quality of life would be better up here. Let me back up a bit. I come from a very close knit family. My mom and I have been like sisters; we go shopping together, go out to eat, hang out and chat, much like best friends. When I agreed to live away, I clearly didn't know what I was getting myself into. I wanted to be the good wife who followed her husband wherever he wanted to go, but life has gotten so complicated. Okay, now I can continue my story. My mother-in-law has neuropathy, and is not very helpful when it comes to being a grandmother. My husband is not much help either. So, the first problem is I am raising a child with no help, I might as well be single. The next issue comes in when my husband only lets me see my family on his terms. Meaning, he has to be present; I cannot take my daughter and visit my family and get away for awhile. He constantly tells me that I am putting my family over him and my daughter, which isn't the case. I would like to live close to my family, remain married and raise my daughter, but my husband isn't moving back south anytime soon. I will finish college in the spring of 2012 and then I plan on taking my daughter (with or without my husband) and moving closer to my family. After all the tearful goodbyes and a non-negotiable husband, my zest for living in the state is dying off. We are currently in marital counseling and I hope it helps; because I don't want a divorce. However, if he can't meet me halfway on this, I am not seeing any other alternative. Does anybody have any helpful advice? I am at a loss here. Thanks!


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## jmfabulous

Hey hon, 

Your husband sounds much like mine. He moved me out of state, and would make up excuses about me not seeing my family. My husband wasn't as obvious as "don't see your family" but would say things like "we don't have the money; we have obligations here; etc".

What I've learned in 2 years of counseling is that my husband is very controlling. I've been married 15 yrs. and it has certainly taken its toll. I'm a shell of what I used to be. I've lost self esteem, and had trouble making friends...there is so much more. It's taken me two years of counseling to seriously consider making changes. I'm now separated after failed couples counseling; and lots more.

He is controlling about other things? How you spend your money? Dress? Friends? 

Have you thought of going to see a counselor on your own to figure out your wants/needs?


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## springgirl

IMHO When a person gets married the spouse and any children become the new immediate family and the spouses parents and siblings become the new extended family. I don't think your husband has a right to tell you you can't visit your family. Perhaps he is feeling threatened by the close knit ties. Why not just plan the holidays to visit your family, stick to your guns, don't argue with him about it. Just tell him that's how it is. Surely he cannot and would not actually stop you. Why are you allowing him to deal such cards. Moving back might not be the answer. It's real hard on spouses of people who have close knit families, why not try showing him that he and your baby are your new close knit family and work on that for a while. 
hope you work things out.


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## HM3

It does sound as though your husband is controlling. You live away from your friends and family, and yet you can't go visit them without him. You should be able to visit them with and without your husband. I can understand that you would like some quality time with them. 

There are many books you can read about controlling men, pick one up and see if there are other things that ring true, like jmfab has pointed out, e.g. finances, friends (does he bad mouth them?), the way you dress, the way things have to be done at home etc.


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## confusedinOK

@ jmfab and Hm3- My husband is very controlling. It's gotten worse since he's moved me 12 hours from my family. I have a car that gets better gas mileage than his truck, so he takes my car to work everyday. Well, in the beginning, he would let me take MY car anywhere I wanted to have a break from our daughter and get out of the house. Now, he's saying that we don't have the gas money for me to go driving around in MY car (mind u), so I am stuck in this house all the time, with hardly any breaks from parenting or just some alone time. He doesn't help with my daughter (which I thought he would, since he's the "family" I have up here and I can't be around my support system). We had discussed and settled on the fact that I could still go down and visit my family for two weeks but not a month. That was shot to Hades when he recently threw a temper tantrum about me wanting to visit my family for 2 more weeks, after I only got to see them for four days before they had to go back south. It's like he's taking away my freedoms one by one and I am getting sick of it! Yes, he is controlling of the finances too. Not only that, but he is very degrading towards me. Telling me that the only reason he's attending marital counseling is for my benefit b/c I am the one with the problems, he's fine. He complains about my cleaning and the way I attend to our daughter, which really gets under my skin. Never thought I'd be in this situation; under the ruling thumb of a controlling man. I hate it and sometimes think I'd rather be single and happy than married and depressed. @ Springgirl- I think you're right about him feeling threatened by close-knit ties. His family is not very close at all. As far as holidays go, we spend one holiday (Thanksgiving) with his family up here and one holiday (Christmas) with my family. Plus any vacation time he has, we go down to visit my family, but that's usually one week out of the year. So, that's two yearly visits unless my family comes up with the money to drive or fly up here. Twice yearly just isn't cutting it for me. I feel like I should see my family whenever I want (the length of time can be negotiated). I am sorry he'd have to live without my daughter and I for those weeks, but that's the price he must pay for moving me out of state, I have little sympathy for him. The lesson to be learned here on his part is never marry a woman from out of state, unless she has familial issues and could either take or leave visiting with her folks. The lesson to be learned here on my part is never marry a man from out of state, unless he's willing to be the "support system" you're not able to obtain through your own family. Boy, I really hope this counseling helps. But if my husband is stubborn and won't change his ways, I see a long, dark road of separation, if not outright divorce, ahead.


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## jmfabulous

Wow...you are telling my story...the gas money, the way I clean, etc. I work outside of the home, full time, and have 3 kids. If the house isn't spotless he would flip out. When I say it's a joint effort HE decides that it's his job to do the outside work, and my job to clean inside, and apparently to HIS standards.

Funny thing is? House has been cleaner, and more organized since he left. I'm not walking on eggshells and actually making decisions. Much better. 

I hope that you can figure some things out, and even try to get a book at the library; or really try to get some individual therapy. I'd say "ok, so maybe it is MY problem. I'm going to go to therapy to address this" (even though it's not, making him think it's his idea he isn't going to push it away as much)


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## HM3

I hate to be blunt but you're living with an abusive man. He has isolated you from friends and family, he puts you down, you're dependent on him for finances, and you have taken the burden of the whole house. Please read Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That?

With abusive/controlling men it is not recommended to go to couple's counselling because it does not address the problem. He needs to go to counselling on his own and take responsibility for his behaviour, and you should seek counselling on your own to help you.

Take care. x


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## confusedinOK

Thank you all for your replies and input. One last thing: Correct me if I am wrong, but when you marry someone from a different state and move them either a plane ride or a 1/2 a day road trip away, shouldn't you step up and be the "family" that your spouse is missing? Let me use my example for instance. I know no one in Oklahoma except my husband's family, and they are not much help at all. I basically tend to the house and my daughter completely alone even though my husband lives with us. On top of that he degrades how I handle household chores and the caretaking of our daughter. Since he was the one with the brilliant idea of working @ a better paying job and moving me away from the only help I know (my family), I feel that it is HIS responsibility to be the support that I am missing; i.e. helping me out with our daughter, giving me breaks after I stay home with her all day, letting me see my family without him having to be present. I honestly feel like if he would step up to the plate here I wouldn't have to make such a drastic lifestyle change and move back by my support system and help. I may be wrong here, but I have a pretty strong inkling that I am right. It's like my dad used to say, "either sh*t or get off of the pot!" In other words, if you're not willing to fill the gap and practically become my "everything" in exchange for me living 12 hours away from my folks, then shut up and let me return to the people who can and will make my life a pleasant existence.


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## jmfabulous

I think whether you moved or not, parenting is a shared responsibility. Just because you are home with your child during the day, doesn't mean that he doesn't have responsibilities. Let me offer you some of the ideas I did, see if any of these would help:

1) Go to the library or any other groups for Mommy and Me time. Benefits are you get out of the house, it's free, and you may meet some friends. A lot of states even have planned "play dates"; this will help with some of your socialization, and give your child someone other than you to play with

2) Find a hobby, and do it. I found a kickboxing class, signed up, and told my husband I was doing this 2x per week for one hour. He loved the idea of it at first...However, like most controlling men, once I developed friendships he would find excuses for me not to go. 

However, I met a lot of friends with a similar interest. Other ideas could be book clubs, knitting, crafting, etc. 

3) Take your daughter to public events in your community. You never know where you meet some friends.

4) Take on a job at night. Your hubby will be forced to be responsible for her, and you will get some much needed adult time and socializiation, with a little cash in your pocket...


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## confusedinOK

You know I am not the kind of person who likes confrontation but here lately, I am starting to reconsider my decision. What's the worst he could do, divorce me? Hey, I was considering that direction myself, lol! We have been snowed in up here for a week now and even though he has been home with me, he sits in the recliner watching the weather channel all day while I cook, clean and handle our daughter. He helps with nothing! Yet, last night after everyone had ate dinner and I cleaned up, he asks me why the house looks terrible. (Let me just throw this in: my husband has a touch of OCD. He goes nuts when he cleans; i.e., cleaning behind the base of the toilet. I, on the other hand, clean the parts we use and that's it. So, of course, my cleaning job is not up to par with his ridiculous self and his mother's cleaning job as well). I felt like saying, "if you're not gonna help out, then shut up. I'll clean my way when I feel like it, after all, I AM the housekeeper here!" But, I didn't, I just kept quiet. He doesn't tell me he loves me, he doesn't show it very well either, no "you're beautiful," etc. He complains that I don't doll up for him when he gets home in the evenings; well I wonder why? Because I am a stay at home mom, not a trophy wife; if he cares about looks so much, he should've married a super model! He has already been to his part of our counseling sessions (which I haven't seen a lot of improvement from that) and mine is coming up in the next few days. I can't wait to get everything I've been holding in off of my chest. I am not sure how much more of this I can stand; I am going stircrazy here! I want to leave but I don't want to return to my mom's house and live in her back bedroom. I was wanting to wait and leave after I graduated college next year so that I could get a place for my daughter and I and a job, but the days are looking bleak. If it wasn't for all of the prayers from people around me, I don't know if I'd still be up here waiting it out now! Please help; any advice will help. Should I try to stick it out a bit longer or try to leave quickly? This whole scenario is confusing me and it makes me sick to even think about it all.


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## Uptown

Confused, I agree with HM3 that marriage counseling is likely a dead end. It can work wonders for couples who need to learn how to communicate better. Yet, the behavior you are describing sounds like strong traits of a PD (personality disorder), which is such a deep-set disorder that treatment usually requires years of therapy with a clinical psychologist.

In particular, you seem to be describing most of the nine traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Whether your H has BPD traits so strong that they meet the diagnostic criteria is a determination that only a professional can make. This does not imply, however, that you are incapable of recognizing a strong pattern of BPD traits when they occur in a loved one. You are able to identify extremely selfish and self-centered people, for example, without being able to diagnose Narcissistic PD. Similarly, you can easily recognize extremely shy individuals without having a clue as to how to diagnose Avoidant PD. And you doubtless can identify a dozen attention-seeking show-offs without knowing how to diagnose Histrionic PD. 

Why are you able to identify such strong traits without having a psychology degree? Because all of us have every one of those traits, albeit at a low level if we are emotionally mature. We therefore know what those behaviors are from the inside out -- and we exhibited them 24/7 when we were children.

I mention all this, Confused, as a way of encouraging you to read about BPD traits and determine -- for yourself -- whether they sound familiar. You will find that BPD traits do not constitute a problem until they become strong enough to interfere with a person's ability to sustain personal relationships.

One BPD trait you talk about is your H's habit of throwing tantrums -- a behavior that likely reflects your H's stunted emotional development. If he is a BPDer (i.e., a person having strong BPD traits), he likely inherited a predisposition to a mental disorder and then, before age 5, probably experienced a trauma that prevented him from developing a cohesive sense of who he really is. That is, he failed to integrate the good and bad aspects of his personality into a cohesive whole. The result is that, unlike the rest of us, he cannot tolerate the idea that he is essentially a good person who occasionally has bad thoughts and makes mistakes. 

Instead, he is stuck with the notion that he (and everyone else) must be "all good" or "all bad." This is why you likely see him doing all-or-nothing thinking. It handicaps him severely with a black-white view of the world, causing him to classify everyone as "all good" or "all bad." Moreover, because he does not have sufficient ego strength to tolerate gray areas, he likely will immediately -- as in "within ten seconds" -- reclassify a person from one category to its polar extreme based on only one minor infraction. Yes, this behavior is hard on friendships -- which is why BPDers typically do not have any long term friends unless they live a long distance away. 

This black-white thinking likely explains why you've seen him change, within ten seconds, from being caring to perceiving you as the bane of his existence. My exW, for example, could switch in seconds from adoring me to hating me. Moreover, a BPDer applies that black-white thinking to himself too, making him terrified of finding a flaw in himself -- and making him adamant about always being right, leading to his blaming all problems on you.

Another hallmark of BPDers is the twin fear of engulfment and abandonment. When you draw near to him, he likely feels like he is evaporating into thin air, losing himself in your strong personality (due to his weak, unstable sense of self). He therefore will treat you the very worst immediately after the very best (and most intimate) times. With a BPDer, it is common for him to push you away -- by creating an argument over nothing -- immediately following a caring, intimate evening or a great weekend.

Yet, as you back away to give him breathing space, you will trigger his other great fear (abandonment) within a few days or weeks. At that point, he will become very caring to pull you back into the relationship. Due to this abandonment fear, it is important to him to control every aspect of your life to prevent your leaving him. 

Moreover, he will become jealous of any time you spend with friends or family members. This is one reason he will try to prevent you from visiting them. Another reason is to maximize his control over you by preventing you from getting objective advice from people who love you and are concerned. My exW, for example, hated my foster son and did everything she could think of to isolate me from my friends and family.

Confused, if this brief description of a few BPD traits sounds familiar, I suggest you read my overview of the other traits in my five posts in GTRR's thread on this forum. They are at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiet...depressed-its-always-my-fault.html#post188319. Those posts provide several links to good articles on BPD by professionals. If this information seems to describe your H's behavior accurately, I would be glad to discuss it further with you here if you like. 

And I would be glad to recommend a forum fully devoted to spouses living with a BPDer partner. I am not a psychologist. Rather, I am a man who foolishly spent 15 years trying "to save" his wife. During that period, I spent a small fortune taking her to weekly visits with six different psychologists and a few marriage counselors too. Sadly, it did not make a dent in her abusive behavior. Not a dent.


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## sisters359

It is very problemmatic that he "won't let you" see your family without him being present. That is extremely controlling. What has been said in therapy about this? 

Get some individual counseling, as someone else said. I think that will help you find some clarity. Remember that abusive and controlling people use control of another to manage their own insecurities, and if you decide to leave, that may become the most threatening time to him. Be aware. Good luck and God bless.


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## MEM2020

Confused,
Why is he so firm that you and baby cannot visit your family without him? 




confusedinOK said:


> Hello everyone,
> I have been going through this issue ever since I got married 2 years ago; but it has just recently resurfaced and it's putting a strain on my marriage. Let me explain. My husband and I are from different states. We got married and moved to OK, because he found a better paying job and HE figured the quality of life would be better up here. Let me back up a bit. I come from a very close knit family. My mom and I have been like sisters; we go shopping together, go out to eat, hang out and chat, much like best friends. When I agreed to live away, I clearly didn't know what I was getting myself into. I wanted to be the good wife who followed her husband wherever he wanted to go, but life has gotten so complicated. Okay, now I can continue my story. My mother-in-law has neuropathy, and is not very helpful when it comes to being a grandmother. My husband is not much help either. So, the first problem is I am raising a child with no help, I might as well be single. The next issue comes in when my husband only lets me see my family on his terms. Meaning, he has to be present; I cannot take my daughter and visit my family and get away for awhile. He constantly tells me that I am putting my family over him and my daughter, which isn't the case. I would like to live close to my family, remain married and raise my daughter, but my husband isn't moving back south anytime soon. I will finish college in the spring of 2012 and then I plan on taking my daughter (with or without my husband) and moving closer to my family. After all the tearful goodbyes and a non-negotiable husband, my zest for living in the state is dying off. We are currently in marital counseling and I hope it helps; because I don't want a divorce. However, if he can't meet me halfway on this, I am not seeing any other alternative. Does anybody have any helpful advice? I am at a loss here. Thanks!


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