# Prospects for Healthy Relationship



## EnjoliWoman

Maybe it's TAM, but I think it's more the fact that TAM has made me more aware of relationship dynamics, BUT - it seems that there are very few emotionally healthy people to choose from in the dating pool.

They are either damaged too much from their relationships and need more time to heal but they are lonely so insist on dating and looking for the next one anyway. Or they don't accept responsibility which is demonstrated mostly by complaining about the ex with no acknowledgement that they contributed (even I contributed by lack of boundaries in an abusive relationship). Or they have poor communication skills and limited understanding of the importance of same. Or they just aren't very self aware and not very far along on the journey to self actualization. Often rigid and intolerant, crass, judgmental, whiny, selfish or insecure.

I refuse to settle, but everyone I have dated has fallen into one of the categories above, even those I dated for nearly a year. 

Is it me? Am I expecting too much? Do I know just enough to be dangerous? I think my 'intimidation' of men that has been noted by friends could be more than my ability to handle power tools. Maybe it's in my expectations of what I want in partner. 

Do others of you find that, as you begin seeing someone or even just talking with them that you quickly realize some deficiency that leaves you concerned about their ability to have a mature, honest, mutually satisfying, cooperative relationship?


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## norajane

Most people, if they live long enough and find themselves single, have baggage and emotional damage from past relationships. 

The key is whether they acknowledge their baggage and their own part in it, and use their experiences to learn about themselves and about relationships, or use it to wallow and be bad partners themselves. 

I think a lot of people jump into dating again after a divorce or break-up without first healing themselves and becoming content with themselves without a partner. How many times do you read around TAM: dump her and find a younger, hotter woman! As though you can just jump from one disastrous relationship into a new one and have _anything _to offer that person while you are still hurt and bitter! 

I think men fall into this mindset more than women - they feel the need to get back in the saddle again right away, maybe for self-esteem reasons, maybe they miss being part of a couple, maybe a lot of reasons. Women might spend more time eating ice cream on the couch with their friends and processing the emotional damage first before considering dating again.

There are healthy people out there, or at least people who have learned and grown from past relationships. Finding them is the big challenge.


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## Married but Happy

Your prospects improve the more prospects you check. 

I surely made a huge blunder marrying my first wife. I was determined not to repeat that mistake.

So, I screened a LOT of prospects (over 900, actually, online dating). I met 50 who seemed to meet my compatibility criteria. Many of those didn't get past the first meet - the attraction didn't exist in person. Or in some cases, there was an issue not previously known that ruled them out - sometimes one of the issues you listed, EnjoliWoman. I was actually able to winnow them down pretty quickly, and had some short term relationships when I met someone who seemed to have LTR potential based on compatibility and attraction. Some failed thereafter for various reasons - but none were bad, and some could have worked if I'd settled just a bit. Finally, one of my prospects had everything I wanted - and more! - and felt the same about me. The rest - as they say - is history.

Finally, everyone has flaws. They just need to be flaws you can live with, and they need to also be someone you don't want to live without.


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## Trickster

When we divorce, put me in the damaged pile and looking for fun and romance. If the next woman knows that and can accept that, it may be perfect.

No man or woman wants to be that rebound person... That is never a healthy relationship...

A single female friend stopped dating. All the men were as you described...She may be home eating ice cream and enjoying wine in peace.


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## Jung_admirer

EnjoliWoman said:


> ....
> Do others of you find that, as you begin seeing someone or even just talking with them that you quickly realize some deficiency that leaves you concerned about their ability to have a mature, honest, mutually satisfying, cooperative relationship?


It's a numbers game as MBH mentioned. You wouldn't buy the first house you walked into (would you?). You might take a look at 10 or 100 and see what you like and dislike. I think it's the same thing here ... be prepared to kiss a few frogs before finding a true prince. That said, if you have spent however long it takes in therapy to gain self-understanding, you easily see the people trying all manner of distraction to avoid the same. Keep Calm and Move On  Kindest Regards-


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## Cooper

Great question Enjoli, something I have considered often.

For me it comes down to the evaluation process (terrible sounding phrase but...) At this point in our lives we view potential partners very differently than when you are younger. At a younger age you have to base much of your compatibility on goals and promises, there's just not that much history to look at. You believe and trust the other person when they explain what they want out of life, and if many of those goals are the same as yours you hope that your life will evolve into your dreams. 

But now we are older and wiser. Now we can look at a persons history or how they are currently living their life, promise me what you want, but if I don't see action and effort already in your history I'm probably not going to believe you're sincere about those promises and dreams. 

What that does is make it much harder to be accepting, if that makes us picky, jaded and cynical so be it. At this point I know myself and how I want to live my life, and I won't settle for a bunch of hopeful promises, if you're not walking the walk then I'm not interested.


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## ne9907

EnjoliWoman said:


> Maybe it's TAM, but I think it's more the fact that TAM has made me more aware of relationship dynamics, BUT - it seems that there are very few emotionally healthy people to choose from in the dating pool.
> 
> They are either damaged too much from their relationships and need more time to heal but they are lonely so insist on dating and looking for the next one anyway. Or they don't accept responsibility which is demonstrated mostly by complaining about the ex with no acknowledgement that they contributed (even I contributed by lack of boundaries in an abusive relationship). Or they have poor communication skills and limited understanding of the importance of same. Or they just aren't very self aware and not very far along on the journey to self actualization. Often rigid and intolerant, crass, judgmental, whiny, selfish or insecure.
> 
> I refuse to settle, but everyone I have dated has fallen into one of the categories above, even those I dated for nearly a year.
> 
> Is it me? Am I expecting too much? Do I know just enough to be dangerous? I think my 'intimidation' of men that has been noted by friends could be more than my ability to handle power tools. Maybe it's in my expectations of what I want in partner.
> 
> Do others of you find that, as you begin seeing someone or even just talking with them that you quickly realize some deficiency that leaves you concerned about their ability to have a mature, honest, mutually satisfying, cooperative relationship?


I have not dated much to find that one special person, I do not want to at the moment. 
I do feel it is not you, you are not expecting too much, you know what you want and are waiting for it; however, maybe it is time to give men a second chance.
First impressions are important, but we are human and have bad days sometimes. 

I have been told I project myself as having a lot of confidence. This is something I must accept as a part of me from now on, I never realized I had all this confidence in me. 
If men find you intimidating, it is a good thing, however from experience when your friends tell you that men find you intimidating they are being overly nice and do not want to tell you the truth.
I believe in intimidation but often times it is an excuse for an underlying factor that people are afraid to disclose to you.

If someone were to say that men find me intimidating, I will not believe it at all.


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## SamuraiJack

It really all depends on how well they take care of themselves. Aside from irritating interactions with my ex, I spent time and worked hard at becoming a better person. I still have my quirks but I accept them in others much more readily now.

At my age, EVERYONE I meet has some form of baggage to deal with. What I look for is not how much baggage a person has, but how well its packed. People who pack neatly generally tend to have it under control and can deal with it easily...no matter how big it is...


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## zillard

I'm highly skeptical that there is or ever can be a perfect match. 

We are all flawed. We all have strengths and weaknesses. To some extent, "settling" is necessary if companionship is desired.

I think the key is clearly separating core values from preferences. We should never settle or compromise on core values, but preferences are just that - they change over time and should be somewhat flexible. 

I also see a difference between being OK alone, and wanting to be alone. 

I don't want to live my life without companionship, even though I know that I absolutely could.

If someone can respect my core boundaries, fits many of my preferences, gives love the way I like it and likes to receive the way I give it, and is committed to self improvement... then I can be flexible and accept the baggage, flaws, and imperfections.

Will that baggage affect their ability to pull their weight in a mature, honest, mutually satisfying, cooperative relationship? Certainly, at times.

Is there concern about whether or not they can maintain and remain committed in the long run? Certainly. But I'll never know if I don't let them try.

Can I? Seeing their baggage and flaws, knowing that at times they will inevitably fvck up in some way? Not if I don't try. 

And if things don't work out... well, I've been there before, know more now, and have more tools in my chest.


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## wtf2012

I also worry that after being in dysfunctional relationships with dysfunctional people that a "healthy mature" relationship will seem boring. I worry that since I am a somewhat stable adult who brings alot to the table, I am immediately written off as boring.

It can be maddening to think wow maybe it is me. I can't believe all these people who can barely function are able to attract other people, but I am lonely mr responsible fun loving divorced dad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EnjoliWoman

Z, I agree - I'm not looking for perfection and I expect some baggage - as you pointed out, it's all in how you handle it and I usually give multiple dates (if they want) to get past the awkward first date jitters and get to know them better.

But, for instance, one guy had custody of his two young children and we all went to an amusement park. A little weird - wish he'd had his Mom watch them but fine. The turnoff was when he was telling me about their mother who developed a drug addiction and he spoke badly and angrily in front of the elementary aged kids. Not cool. He didn't handle his baggage well. Obviously he has a right to be angry with a woman who choose drugs over her kids but speaking it in front of them I thought was a poor choice and likely wasn't the first.

Another guy "forgot" our picnic lunch, didn't want to stop at a restaurant when I suggested it and obviously wanted to get intimate instead. I found that assuming, rude and inconsiderate as I hadn't eaten since breakfast and this was our second date.

Yet another got frustrated with me and called off all communication because I got frustrated that he asked me the same question 3 times in text - "what are you doing today" - and I answered "my parents are coming up and visiting for the day". Maybe he wanted to know more, like when are they coming or do they hang out at my place all day or even maybe he wanted to meet them. Instead the third time I prefaced my reply with "I said the other two times you asked, my parents are visiting today..." and he never contacted me again. Obviously communication skills were lacking. He might have felt getting more from me was like pulling teeth. I felt he wasn't listening. But shutting down isn't the right approach.

And of course the most recent one where I was the rebound and he didn't intend it that way - he wasn't ready and I should have known. 

ne9907 - I was told I'm intimidating by one girlfriend because the guy I was introduced to (neighbor of friend in apartments I met) was talking about hovercraft and I happen to ask what kind of skirt it had and he couldn't answer. I actually knew more about the subject he was trying to BS about to look cool/smart/whatever. But he didn't know the difference between a paneled vs. a solid skirted base. Ha! 

My other girlfriend said I should ask for help more. That I need to be more girly and needy and that guys want to be able to be "the guy". Believe me, more guys know about guy stuff than I do. I just know more than a lot of women. This was because I corrected a guy who was asking about my new porch addition. I mentioned I was going to paint the back wall with the exterior latex paint but needed to buy pigmented stain for the rest of it and he said latex would work. I told him I had researched it and pressure treated wood should be painted with pigmented stain because latex would peel after a few years. I'm not going to play dumb for his male ego but apparently she thought I should have just said "Oh, OK" and then used the stain without mentioning what I learned. 

I don't want to play that kind of game. It's hard to try to not be yourself! I'm curious and I research things I want to know about. I'm SURE there were things these guys knew but I didn't had we continued talking. Instead they both shut down. My delivery isn't know-it-all; none of the women I work with feel it is. I tell them the same stuff I have learned and they find it interesting/useful/etc.

UG. Dating!


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## norajane

wtf2012 said:


> I also worry that after being in dysfunctional relationships with dysfunctional people that a "healthy mature" relationship will seem boring. I worry that since I am a somewhat stable adult who brings alot to the table, I am immediately written off as boring.
> 
> It can be maddening to think wow maybe it is me. I can't believe all these people who can barely function are able to attract other people, but I am lonely mr responsible fun loving divorced dad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You'll only seem boring to the drama-llamas. Dysfunctional people attract other dysfunctional people. Many who don't seem dysfunctional but are attracted like magnets to dysfunctional people also have something about themselves that leads them to seek out dysfunction in others.

You would not seem boring in the least to someone who is also a "somewhat stable adult" who is responsible and fun and wants similar things out of life as you do. 

My SO and I probably seem boring to some. But we are not boring to each other. However, we also have had our dramatic relationships in the past - with others and with each other - so it took us a while to learn from our mistakes and get to a place of "boring together," lol.


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## vi_bride04

I'm at the same place you are at, Enjoli. In fact, I have given up on dating. Well, not given up, but I'm not going to put myself out there anymore. It just seems to be more of a hassle and waste of my time going out with these guys I'm finding. 

I hate it, its like I can't be myself. And I already played that game, I'm not going to do that again. I can be myself by myself and love every second of it!!!  I am intimidating to guys as well, maybe b/c I don't need rescuing.


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## angelpixie

EnjoliWoman said:


> ne9907 - I was told I'm intimidating by one girlfriend because the guy I was introduced to (neighbor of friend in apartments I met) was talking about hovercraft and I happen to ask what kind of skirt it had and he couldn't answer. I actually knew more about the subject he was trying to BS about to look cool/smart/whatever. But he didn't know the difference between a paneled vs. a solid skirted base. Ha!
> 
> My other girlfriend said I should ask for help more. That I need to be more girly and needy and that guys want to be able to be "the guy". Believe me, more guys know about guy stuff than I do. I just know more than a lot of women. This was because I corrected a guy who was asking about my new porch addition. I mentioned I was going to paint the back wall with the exterior latex paint but needed to buy pigmented stain for the rest of it and he said latex would work. I told him I had researched it and pressure treated wood should be painted with pigmented stain because latex would peel after a few years. I'm not going to play dumb for his male ego but apparently she thought I should have just said "Oh, OK" and then used the stain without mentioning what I learned.
> 
> I don't want to play that kind of game. It's hard to try to not be yourself! I'm curious and I research things I want to know about. I'm SURE there were things these guys knew but I didn't had we continued talking. Instead they both shut down. My delivery isn't know-it-all; none of the women I work with feel it is. I tell them the same stuff I have learned and they find it interesting/useful/etc.
> 
> UG. Dating!


EW -- This made me laugh. It sounds so much like me! I love learning new things, so I'm always researching something (hmm, maybe I should get a job in a library.  :rofl: ) and, while I am happy to listen to anyone who obviously knows what s/he is talking about, I don't suffer b.s.'ers well. I am more than happy to admit when I don't know something, and to ask questions of those with more knowledge (after all, I love learning, right?) I probably would have also told the guy I was going to use the pigmented stain -- thinking maybe he hadn't read the same recommendations and reviews that I found, and he'd want to actually know what IS the best product for the job, not because *I* know everything, but because I 'consulted' those who did know. If that intimidates him and makes him walk away, then, to me, that's indicative of other issues he might have. Anyone who is going to be involved with me is going to have to be mature enough to be OK with someone who doesn't play dumb for the sake of someone's ego.

As for baggage, I agree with norajane: 
"Most people, if they live long enough and find themselves single, have baggage and emotional damage from past relationships. 

The key is whether they acknowledge their baggage and their own part in it, and use their experiences to learn about themselves and about relationships, or use it to wallow and be bad partners themselves."

I can't expect someone else not to have baggage when I'm still working on unpacking my own. So long as he's working on his, too, then I think we could actually help each other along the way.


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## bravenewworld

I felt like I could have written 99% of the posts on here. My head hurts from nodding! 

I deleted both of my internet dating accounts a while back. I was getting way too many responses and most of them seemed to have the problems you listed Enjoli. Not going down that road again. From now on I'm focusing on getting myself in great mental/physical/emotional shape. I want to be my best me!

Hell, if I do wind up dating another messed up guy, maybe he'll at least be in a position to take me on a decent vacation before the inevitable fallout. (kidding! kind of.)


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## LongWalk

norajane said:


> You'll only seem boring to the drama-llamas. Dysfunctional people attract other dysfunctional people. Many who don't seem dysfunctional but are attracted like magnets to dysfunctional people also have something about themselves that leads them to seek out dysfunction in others.
> 
> You would not seem boring in the least to someone who is also a "somewhat stable adult" who is responsible and fun and wants similar things out of life as you do.
> 
> My SO and I probably seem boring to some. But we are not boring to each other. However, we also have had our dramatic relationships in the past - with others and with each other - so it took us a while to learn from our mistakes and get to a place of "boring together," lol.


This is true. Moreover, men with baggage will go for personality types like mom and women like dad because they represent the solution that existed in childhood. Fixing the problems in those relationship patterns can be a built in longing.

This doesn't have to be entirely negative if your parents were not failures and had positive qualities.

Looking back I can also see that I was sometimes attracted to dysfunctional people who had way bigger issues than I did and their personalities and did not fit in any pattern of family.

My freshman year in high school I played footsie with G, a girl in French class. She was pretty but had a birth defect (misshapen ear) and that colored her self image. I sensed her sadness and wanted to be closer to her.

Amidst all the people that we can attempt to have relationships there are some who may grow and lead each other to a better place in terms of personal development. My guess would be that they are more exception than rule, for as life goes on the dysfunctional people weaken.

What protects us allowing relationships to drive off cliffs? Social institutions, family, church, social networks, places radiate wisdom and balance. TAM is virtual example. People do profit from helping and being helped. One could never be so blind about relationships after being on TAM.

re: the paint
Men have relatively fragile egos. They want women to pump them up. Admire them, consider them smart, brave, erudite, etc. But most of us are by definition merely average. Louis Theroux made a great documentary about a legal house of prostitution in Nevada.

"Almost all men have penises which are 5 or 6 inches, almost all of them," said one woman. "Except the Japanese and they don't care." Black men were not among the customer base, haha.

So really men have reason to feel insecure. That is why women are attracted to men who are not anxious.

"Would you like to go out with me? Maybe to dinner or the movies?" (delivered with palpable anxiety at the prospect of rejection)

"Going to X club to hear a really good local band with some friends on Friday, you're welcome to come along." (delivered in the spirit of do you want to have fun? Not, with the vibe that at the end of date I am going to put some awkward move on you.)

I never start reading your (Enjoli's) post, thinking that you are overly opinionated or bitter. I imagine that IRL you would be a good partner in conversation.

Having gone through divorce and being older presents challenges. Being naive and young means that wild monkey sex can completely confuse our judgment. For better and worse experience makes us more critical and cautious.


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## zillard

angelpixie said:


> The key is whether they acknowledge their baggage and their own part in it, and use their experiences to learn about themselves and about relationships, or use it to wallow and be bad partners themselves."
> 
> I can't expect someone else not to have baggage when I'm still working on unpacking my own. So long as he's working on his, too, then I think we could actually help each other along the way.


Exactly. I have an exgf that would repeatedly bring up my baggage (even though I freely acknowledged it), but would refuse to see her own. 

"You think I have baggage from xyz relationship? Give me an example" 

Nope. Not my job, and completely pointless. If you can't see it, you still won't if I point it out. 

As Conrad says, NO, it's not different when YOU do it.


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## Jellybeans

EnjoliWoman said:


> Do others of you find that, as you begin seeing someone or even just talking with them that you quickly realize some deficiency that leaves you concerned about their ability to have a mature, honest, mutually satisfying, cooperative relationship?


I just think that, for me, the rose-colored glasses are gone forever now that I have divorced. I have no idealizations. I am quicker to put an end to questionable behavior. That may be good. That may be bad. I have learned I will be fine no matter what, in a relationship or without one. I have dated stage five clingers, guys obsessed with their exes, one who had a drug problem (quickly ended that), a guy who didn't seem to have much ambition to find a job, a guy who just disappeared out of nowhere, one who apparently was married and failed to tell me that, the one who wanted to introduce me to his mom on our third date. I'm not sure if it's the "pickin's"--maybe I'm just quicker to say "This isn't going to work for me.


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## SamuraiJack

zillard said:


> Exactly. I have an exgf that would repeatedly bring up my baggage (even though I freely acknowledged it), but would refuse to see her own.
> 
> "You think I have baggage from xyz relationship? Give me an example"
> 
> Nope. Not my job, and completely pointless. If you can't see it, you still won't if I point it out.
> 
> As Conrad says, NO, it's not different when YOU do it.


Exactly! No matter what you do, if they dont have the insight its like trying to describe color to someone born without sight. 

I encountered many people like this when I was practicing. I found the key was to teach them HOW to get insight and help them succeed.
Then it was usually off to the races..


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## EnjoliWoman

Jellybeans said:


> I just think that, for me, the rose-colored glasses are gone forever now that I have divorced. I have no idealizations. I am quicker to put an end to questionable behavior. That may be good. That may be bad. I have learned I will be fine no matter what, in a relationship or without one. I have dated stage five clingers, guys obsessed with their exes, one who had a drug problem (quickly ended that), a guy who didn't seem to have much ambition to find a job, a guy who just disappeared out of nowhere, one who apparently was married and failed to tell me that, the one who wanted to introduce me to his mom on our third date. I'm not sure if it's the "pickin's"--maybe I'm just quicker to say "This isn't going to work for me.


Ha! I've dated some of those, too! The guy who still lived with his Mom at 42 (never left, never married) and went in for a kiss while sliding his hand up my skirt, the one who introduced me to his triplet boys on the second date so he'd have their approval to date me (and then after a few dates announced he found his soul mate and was marrying her the next month... fun times!


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## Satya

I recently left a relationship that had been going for about 8 months. Great man in so many respects, and I did have much respect for him, but realized that he was not capable of giving me the kind of support I needed and couldnt reciprocate my desire to make him a part of my life. He wouldn't let me into his world and wouldn't go out of his way to help me, support me, be there for me. He'd been independent for so long, he didn't want to adjust his life to let in another. Maybe he was not capable. He was definitely not dependable. I began to feel like I would always end up sad and disappointed and scrambling to do everything alone. He also did not take care of his health, which was a big issue with me.

He was the least "damaged" man I had dated around my age simply because he'd never been married or had many long term relationships. That was a bit of a red flag, but it took time to really see that his lifestyle was not one of a man looking for a life partner, but of a man who didn't really want to grow up and wanted a woman who didn't care of he stayed that way, didn't care if he lived it up and let go all the time. I have a very fun streak to my personality, but I expect that a man my age can take care of serious things without being passive and exhibiting some kind of "I dun wanna!" attitude. 

This was what his actions told me, but his words included wanting children, wanting to settle down finally, wanting to contribute significantly to his field, etc. None of his behavior told me he was ready for any of this. I called him out twice for the inconsistencies and then when he got a third strike and he was out. 

Unfortunately, we had many things in common, many values in common (hardest for me to find in another without some clash), and many good times. Everyone thought we were meant for each other, said things like, "finally, he found a woman who has a sense of humor like him!" And I did, but I also had my priorities straight. I never tried to change him, I accepted him as he was throughout the relationship because I owed him that much, respectfully. To his credit he took me just as I was, too. Many of my friends said I was out of his league, but I don't subscribe to that whole number matching notion. He had a very brilliant mind, which is what attracted me the most. I don't know if he ever realized how much I did and still do love him, because he admitted to me that he is more of a surface thinker. It was he who said the L word first, so I know that at one time he felt love for me.

It was pretty telling when we ended up breaking up over the phone and after 8 months, 8 months of engaging him in many heartfelt conversations, all he said was, "it was great." That hurt, after due reflection, but it also confirmed in a very real way that he was not the man for me. He lacked the emotional depth I needed. A man who thought I'd brought any value to his life would have had more to say. I obviously brought nothing to him, so I cut all contact (after I wrote a brief, respectful letter) and haven't heard a peep since. 

He was not a bad person in the least, I've not once blamed him in a negative way for the demise of the relationship. I'm realistic and know there were things I could have done differently. I wish happiness for him. I just don't think he ever let me get close. I was a low priority and always an arms length away. We rarely had dates that didn't include his friends (are we teenagers?!) and we most certainly did not have enough time together to bond. He never really held me, cuddled me, craved me. We'd go for a whole month without sex. He'd make plans without getting me involved and eventually I got the hint that he didn't really look forward to seeing me. I also ignored things I shouldn't have because I wanted to give him a fair chance. From the start I told him I valued actions over words, I'd be watching, non-clingy, and that I would rather be alone than be with someone who didn't want to be with me. I followed through, when a younger and weaker me might have stuck around a lot longer. 

After the break up, I told my mother "I ain't got time for fools! NEXT!" Tragedy always has to lead to humor for me so that I can carry on. She knows my heart took a beating (for the 3rd time) and told me to stop seeking brainy, emotionally unavailable men. It's the truth and I'm a big step closer to avoiding that which will not work for me, blasted codependency. Oh well, I'm busy being a bit of a wounded bird for now, then I'll spring back. Life goes on, with or without you! 

Sorry for the word vomit. 
Short response is, I hear you, Enjoli. I'm thinking of saying phooey and embracing catladyhood.


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## Cooper

I hate to be a buzz kill for you ladies talking about "bad dates" but life isn't much different for us that stand to pee. There's many damaged and immature 50 year old women out there, sometimes I think a switch flips in their brains at 45 and they go back to high school maturity levels.

An intelligent woman who can use tools certainly wouldn't intimidate me, heck while you're hanging the new ceiling fan I might just sneak out and buy an engagement ring.


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## Jellybeans

EnjoliWoman said:


> the one who introduced me to his triplet boys on the second date so he'd have their approval to date me (and then after a few dates announced he found his soul mate and was marrying her the next month... fun times!


O.M.G.

You win! That is NUTS.


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## Jellybeans

Cooper said:


> I hate to be a buzz kill for you ladies talking about "bad dates" but life isn't much different for us that stand to pee.


I don't think the thread was meant to be gender-specific.

There is crazy/whacky/immature everywhere with both sexes.


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## Jellybeans

Satya said:


> but realized that he was not capable of giving me the kind of support I needed and couldnt reciprocate my desire to make him a part of my life. He wouldn't let me into his world and wouldn't go out of his way to help me, support me, be there for me. He'd been independent for so long, he didn't want to adjust his life to let in another. Maybe he was not capable. He was definitely not dependable. I began to feel like I would always end up sad and disappointed and scrambling to do everything alone.
> 
> I just don't think he ever let me get close. I was a low priority and always an arms length away. We rarely had dates that didn't include his friends (are we teenagers?!) and we most certainly did not have enough time together to bond. He never really held me, cuddled me, craved me. We'd go for a whole month without sex. He'd make plans without getting me involved and eventually I got the hint that he didn't really look forward to seeing me.


After reading all that, it explains why he has never been married or had many long relationships.


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## firebelly1

EnjoliWoman said:


> Ha! I've dated some of those, too! The guy who still lived with his Mom at 42 (never left, never married) and went in for a kiss while sliding his hand up my skirt, the one who introduced me to his triplet boys on the second date so he'd have their approval to date me (and then after a few dates announced he found his soul mate and was marrying her the next month... fun times!


Sorry...but that's just funny. Right? After the fact you can look back and laugh. I found myself on a date recently where I almost laughed out loud because it was SO absurd. And I was proud of myself because in general I've HATED dating. I hate meeting someone for the first time and trying to make small talk but really what you want to know is the important stuff. HATE dating. Get really nervous and self-conscious, but for some reason I am now at a place where I can go on a date, be secretly laughing at how it's REALLY not working out and am now somewhat delighted that I have such a funny story to tell people. 

And the other thing is that I'm at peace with the fact that I will only accept a man who is emotionally intelligent and self-aware. If he doesn't show up, dang. But do I want one that isn't? Nope. Makes me picky in a good way and means I will be drawing from a smaller pool. There aren't a lot of self-aware people, men or women. But there is at least one for you. I believe that.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Cooper said:


> I hate to be a buzz kill for you ladies talking about "bad dates" but life isn't much different for us that stand to pee. There's many damaged and immature 50 year old women out there, sometimes I think a switch flips in their brains at 45 and they go back to high school maturity levels.
> 
> An intelligent woman who can use tools certainly wouldn't intimidate me, heck while you're hanging the new ceiling fan I might just sneak out and buy an engagement ring.


As long as you make sure the breaker is off, I will install! 

My original post was NOT gender specific!  I see things in my same sex friends for sure. Married, dating AND single. I try to share some of my TAM knowledge without being pushy or nosey.


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## Cooper

Breakers? What breakers? I don't need no stinking breakers!


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## angelpixie

Cooper said:


> Breakers? What breakers? I don't need no stinking breakers!













:rofl:


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## SurpriseMyself

After so many years in a dysfunctional relationship, and in fact probably never having one prior, how do you even recognize one. Prior to my marriage, I knew when a relationship wasn't right. Not sure I ever had one that was. Hoping maturity and time will be enough that, when I do date again, I'll have the insight I'm hoping for. And the patience to see it out.


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## angelpixie

ebp123 said:


> After so many years in a dysfunctional relationship, and in fact probably never having one prior, how do you even recognize one. Prior to my marriage, I knew when a relationship wasn't right. Not sure I ever had one that was. Hoping maturity and time will be enough that, when I do date again, I'll have the insight I'm hoping for. And the patience to see it out.


The passage of time or maturity gained from just living life will not generally be enough when it specifically comes to relationships, imo. It becomes too easy to just keep repeating our own version of our history to ourselves, and then that becomes the standard upon which we judge future relationships. Problem is, that may or may not be all that accurate. We have a way of skewing things so that we don't have to take any real responsibility for things. 

But, there are lots of things you can do _proactively_ to help yourself before you get into your next relationship (and I'm using 'you' in the general sense -- this is true for anyone).

THE first and most important and powerful thing is to learn about yourself, especially to recognize your own role in entering and staying in a dysfunctional relationship. If you haven't been in counseling post-breakup, you might want to consider it. If not, there are lots and lots of books that you can read about what IS a healthy relationship. Sometimes, that helps you get a clue to the source of the dysfunction: was it abuse, was there a chemical dependency problem, money issues, something unfinished from your own childhood or family of origin, etc. 

Most of the time, after we gain some of this knowledge, we can look back at our relationships and see that there were clues and red flags right there, staring us in the face. Maybe, at the time, we didn't know they were red flags -- we might have thought they were 'quirky,' or even that some behaviors were just 'overly romantic' instead of actually being symptoms of a personality disorder, as examples. Or maybe, we had a gut feeling that _something was wrong_ with this person, but we ignored it. Those are the kinds of things that you can learn about yourself, to prevent another dysfunctional relationship. 

I know I've posted these two questions many times for others on TAM, but when I read them in a book about abuse, they summed up so much: 

1. What about me allowed me to be attracted to this dysfunctional person (instead of running away, as a healthy person would have done)? 

2. What about me was attractive to this dysfunctional person (dysfunctional people don't get involved with healthy people -- healthy people won't take their sh!t)?

I'm not in any way saying that someone is to blame if they were abused or anything like that, just to make that clear. But many, many times, we will end up seeing that, had we just known then what we know now...we wouldn't have chosen the same person. We can't do anything about that now (and for many of us, we can't go so far as to regret those relationships, as without them, we wouldn't have our kid(s)), but knowledge really is power -- the power to make a better, healthier choice the next time around. 

And even so, I say this with the caveat that finding your 'best' relationship might be an incremental process; each one better than the one before it. It might not be that the very next person you meet is the one you stay with. Everyone's lives are different.


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## Satya

*Re: Re: Prospects for Healthy Relationship*



Jellybeans said:


> After reading all that, it explains why he has never been married or had many long relationships.


Absolutely, the tough part was that it took time to sew together all of the smaller pieces that painted the fuller picture of his behavior. I also had a good girlfriend keep me aware of the things we often miss when we're not in a position to be objective! 

I learned a valuable lesson. Now I'll be applying it.


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## Cooper

I have been thinking this issue over since Enjoli made the original post.

My personal journey started 6 years ago when I got divorced from a 20 year marriage. I was married to a woman with a hysterical personality, being married to her literally drained my energies day after day. When she left the kids stayed with me so I had to finish raising them so my primary focus was there.

At first I was kind of hung-ho about dating, had my first date shortly after the divorce. But the longer I am single, the less I date, and the less I'm interested in dating. During that time I have meet some nice women, become involved with a few, but....

Self awareness tells me it's me (not you, lol). I have got to a point in my life where I am tired of being responsible for others. Maybe for once in my life I can be selfish with my time and energies, and I don't want to give that up, so I look for a relationship where I am wanted but not "needed", does that make sense? I'm not sure I'm articulate enough to explain my thoughts very well. I don't want to fix you, I don't want to heal your emotional wounds, I don't want to support you financially, I don't want to be responsible for your day to day happiness. 

That makes me sound terrible doesn't it? In truth I would be happy to do those things as necessary, but I am not willingly going to put myself in a relationship where those things are "needed" of me right off the get go. I want a woman who is emotionally strong and mature, a woman who is intelligent and resourceful, a woman who is strongly independent yet loving and compassionate. 

The list goes on....and that's the problem, with me and maybe some of you reading this. It's not so much we are looking for perfection, but we have lost or ability to easily compromise and give of ourselves. Compromise takes energy, you need to mentally say "OK, I don't like it but I'm going to let that slide". For me personally I am tired of giving up all that energy, so I look for a relationship with minimal compromise, and after six years even looking is starting to take to much energy.


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## whitehawk

Yep finding the same thing.
You even see it between lines on dating profiles, some it's all over it.
Some you can pick it up within minutes of a first phone call , even email. 
l've had 2 or 3 dates now too that are literally sabotaging themselves at every turn. One even rang me back to apologize and explain but it was very obvious wks before within minutes of first talking to her. 
It is sad and it does worry me a lot. As much maybe about my own scares as someone new .
And the worst part has been though that l've already been lucky enough to meet somebody where we are both a dream come true to each other,yet she is still so damaged even after 4yrs alone that she just will not allow herself into another relationship. 

l feel like that's the one and only real thing second chance l'm likely to be lucky enough to find from here . Yet there you go.


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## poppyseed

Cooper said:


> I have got to a point in my life where I am tired of being responsible for others. Maybe for once in my life I can be selfish with my time and energies, and I don't want to give that up, so I look for a relationship where I am wanted but not "needed", does that make sense?  I'm not sure I'm articulate enough to explain my thoughts very well. I don't want to fix you, I don't want to heal your emotional wounds, I don't want to support you financially, I don't want to be responsible for your day to day happiness.
> 
> The list goes on....and that's the problem, with me and maybe some of you reading this. It's not so much we are looking for perfection, but we have lost or ability to easily compromise and give of ourselves. Compromise takes energy, you need to mentally say "OK, I don't like it but I'm going to let that slide". For me personally I am tired of giving up all that energy, so I look for a relationship with minimal compromise, and after six years even looking is starting to take to much energy.


Hi Cooper & all

I often read your posts and I agree with them.

It's perfectly OK to say what you do or do not want so long as you are honest when dating. There must be quite a large proportion of people in dating pool who aren't even contemplating on anything "serious" beyond just wanting to "get lucky" one weekend. If they do want to have a long-term relationship, then they may have certain agenda as to how the relationship should look like in their own terms and conditions (as you do). People probably got some check-list to screen their potential as a future mate / a good date for now etc.

"I want a woman who is emotionally strong and mature, a woman who is intelligent and resourceful, a woman who is strongly independent yet loving and compassionate." 

I'm sure every single men would desire qualities in someone as you describe. Someone who you do not need to invest your emotional, physical or financial resources on HER too much as she's already so self-sufficient and you would be blissfully happy with the self-autonomous female who flies solo and rarely need your "help" or involvement. 

I hear you about your negative feelings about "making compromises" too. This is where I often say, if you're over certain age group (?late 40s/50s), divorce can hit you a lot harder..As one grows much older, one is inclined to consider that one loses some abilities to adjust and stay flexible according to new set of routines and changes which may occur. 

Energy level is also bound to be much lower than when you were, let's say, early 40s and as one grows older, you start to see the finite amount of time left on this earth asking ourselves can we "waste" on our finite time and hard earned resources on someone else?

I think it's entirely your choice and I don't think your thinking is too unusual. When I was in my 30s, I was far far far more optimistic in my life and had far more energy even if there are problems to solve in a relationship. Also you mention you had a long marriage with long-standing issues/conflicts you had to deal with. There is no doubt that your previous relationship took a huge toll on you in so many levels and these factors shaped your ways of current thinking after all. If you had a positive and happy marriage but lost your mate through illness (for example), you would have been able to move on far more smoothly (?).


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## firebelly1

Cooper said:


> I have got to a point in my life where I am tired of being responsible for others. Maybe for once in my life I can be selfish with my time and energies, and I don't want to give that up, so I look for a relationship where I am wanted but not "needed", does that make sense? I'm not sure I'm articulate enough to explain my thoughts very well. I don't want to fix you, I don't want to heal your emotional wounds, I don't want to support you financially, I don't want to be responsible for your day to day happiness.


I really relate to this. I've been raising kids for the last 22 years and spent SO much energy trying to fix my stbx marriage. I'm so sick of taking care of living things that I've even started looking forward to when the cat finally passes. So - I think I've got one up on you in the selfish department.


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## Cooper

poppyseed said:


> Hi Cooper & all
> 
> I often read your posts and I agree with them.
> 
> It's perfectly OK to say what you do or do not want so long as you are honest when dating. There must be quite a large proportion of people in dating pool who aren't even contemplating on anything "serious" beyond just wanting to "get lucky" one weekend. If they do want to have a long-term relationship, then they may have certain agenda as to how the relationship should look like in their own terms and conditions (as you do). People probably got some check-list to screen their potential as a future mate / a good date for now etc.
> 
> "I want a woman who is emotionally strong and mature, a woman who is intelligent and resourceful, a woman who is strongly independent yet loving and compassionate."
> 
> I'm sure every single men would desire qualities in someone as you describe. Someone who you do not need to invest your emotional, physical or financial resources on HER too much as she's already so self-sufficient and you would be blissfully happy with the self-autonomous female who flies solo and rarely need your "help" or involvement.
> 
> I hear you about your negative feelings about "making compromises" too. This is where I often say, if you're over certain age group (?late 40s/50s), divorce can hit you a lot harder..As one grows much older, one is inclined to consider that one loses some abilities to adjust and stay flexible according to new set of routines and changes which may occur.
> 
> Energy level is also bound to be much lower than when you were, let's say, early 40s and as one grows older, you start to see the finite amount of time left on this earth asking ourselves can we "waste" on our finite time and hard earned resources on someone else?
> 
> I think it's entirely your choice and I don't think your thinking is too unusual. When I was in my 30s, I was far far far more optimistic in my life and had far more energy even if there are problems to solve in a relationship. Also you mention you had a long marriage with long-standing issues/conflicts you had to deal with. There is no doubt that your previous relationship took a huge toll on you in so many levels and these factors shaped your ways of current thinking after all. If you had a positive and happy marriage but lost your mate through illness (for example), you would have been able to move on far more smoothly (?).


Poppyseed I guess the best we can hope for is meeting someone who makes us "forget" all the past and who stimulates us on enough on many different levels that we are willing to give up some of our precious energy.

Another thing I have considered about Enjoli's original post is some of us find it very easy to be single, and some of us enjoy being single. I am like that, always able to be happy and content in my own company and doing my own thing. Truthfully there are times I feel the only reason I even consider a relationship is because it's "expected" and "normal", a bit of social conformity maybe.


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## Cooper

firebelly1 said:


> I really relate to this. I've been raising kids for the last 22 years and spent SO much energy trying to fix my stbx marriage. I'm so sick of taking care of living things that I've even started looking forward to when the cat finally passes. So - I think I've got one up on you in the selfish department.


I don't know Firebelly, I may have you beat. After the divorce the kids and I kept one of our family dogs, great little dog named Winnie. At 17 we had to put her to rest and it broke my heart (hurt way more than the ex wife leaving,lol)

A few months later the kids pitched in together and bought me another dog, I refused it! Cute dog but I told them no way no how, no more pets for me. I love dogs but I love not having to worry about one even more!


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## EnjoliWoman

I find I can go either way - be single or alone. Right now I'm kind of in the 'alone' camp. 

I agree that I have done a lot of self-discovery and most of it actually pretty good. My biggest faults were lack of boundaries and a desire to please others that overcame my own protective instincts and sense of right and wrong. I knew it was wrong to be hit yet I was too embarrassed to admit I'd made a mistake marrying him and it felt like failure. My only failure was in not leaving immediately and in thinking I could change him "if only I..."

But I do see more unresolved issues, more blame shifting, etc. when I got out with men. And I expect baggage but I expect some self-awareness, some maturity, some taking on responsibility. I expect some conflict - but I also expect the ability to navigate them with good communication. I'm still very optimistic about life, about me... but not blissfully ignorant anymore. 

Like the guy who hadn't been married since his late 20s. I fully expect him to be settled in his ways. But he tended to make unilateral decisions because he was so used to that. Even when they involved me. And the guy who had been cheated on - I fully expected trust issues so knew to be open, but he misjudged his ability to open up and trust.


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## firebelly1

EnjoliWoman said:


> I find I can go either way - be single or alone. Right now I'm kind of in the 'alone' camp.
> 
> I agree that I have done a lot of self-discovery and most of it actually pretty good. My biggest faults were lack of boundaries and a desire to please others that overcame my own protective instincts and sense of right and wrong. I knew it was wrong to be hit yet I was too embarrassed to admit I'd made a mistake marrying him and it felt like failure. My only failure was in not leaving immediately and in thinking I could change him "if only I..."
> 
> But I do see more unresolved issues, more blame shifting, etc. when I got out with men. And I expect baggage but I expect some self-awareness, some maturity, some taking on responsibility. I expect some conflict - but I also expect the ability to navigate them with good communication. I'm still very optimistic about life, about me... but not blissfully ignorant anymore.
> 
> Like the guy who hadn't been married since his late 20s. I fully expect him to be settled in his ways. But he tended to make unilateral decisions because he was so used to that. Even when they involved me. And the guy who had been cheated on - I fully expected trust issues so knew to be open, but he misjudged his ability to open up and trust.


If the law of a attraction is true then seems like you and I need to create the intention of finding a self-aware man and have that be our focus. But if we go into things assuming there aren't any, well, we won't find any.


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## Jellybeans

Cooper said:


> Another thing I have considered about Enjoli's original post is some of us find it very easy to be single, and some of us enjoy being single.


Yeah. Totally. I personally enjoy being single. I feel more "me" when I am single.


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## lancaster

I think you are onto something. Prior to my marriage it was 5 years since my last relationship. During those 5 years I had sex maybe 6 times. 

I had no desire to date or enter a relationship. I enjoyed being single and working in me. Now the big issue for me is that I grew increasingly selfish over that time without really realizing it until my relationship with my now wife. Without being in a relationship some problems developed such as selfishness developed that did not surface until I entered a relationship. 

So I do not really know what the answer is, but if my marriage does fail I will likely go back to being single again for a long period of time. 

I do think a period of focusing on oneself is important after the end of a long term relationship. However, being alone for to long can make dating again very difficult if that is a long period of time. As it was in my case.


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## zillard

lancaster said:


> I think you are onto something. Prior to my marriage it was 5 years since my last relationship. During those 5 years I had sex maybe 6 times.
> 
> I had no desire to date or enter a relationship. I enjoyed being single and working in me. Now the big issue for me is that I grew increasingly selfish over that time without really realizing it until my relationship with my now wife. Without being in a relationship some problems developed such as selfishness developed that did not surface until I entered a relationship.
> 
> So I do not really know what the answer is, but if my marriage does fail I will likely go back to being single again for a long period of time.
> 
> I do think a period of focusing on oneself is important after the end of a long term relationship. However, being alone for to long can make dating again very difficult if that is a long period of time. As it was in my case.


I saw this in an ex-girlfriend. It had been a long time since she was in a relationship, and even then they were short lived flings. Due to that, normal LTR niceties and such were foreign to her. Your description helped me put that in perspective. 

Checking in with a text or call
Unilateral decisions
Compromise
Consideration
Etc.

I can see how those things would be difficult when out of practice, with no intention of disrespect.


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## Rowan

My brother has a friend who has been single for many years, and he did sort of develop the ingrained habit of not thinking about how his actions effected others. It wasn't that he intended any harm or disrespect, but it was clear that basic consideration for another person required a bit of a shift in his mindset and considerable visible effort. That quality gradually outpaced the ability of most women to tolerate him as a romantic partner. At which point, the living like a frat boy thing set in, and stuff like clean clothes and the use of utensils became sort of optional for him. 

I told my brother that the guy had reached the point where "not dating" becomes "undateable."

My brother just said the dude had been on his own so long he was feral.


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## zillard

I know a guy like that too. 

We call him "Tact Master Zero"


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## Stretch

Rowan said:


> My brother just said the dude had been on his own so long he was feral.


Hilarious :rofl:


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## hereinthemidwest

EnjoliWoman said:


> Maybe it's TAM, but I think it's more the fact that TAM has made me more aware of relationship dynamics, BUT - it seems that there are very few emotionally healthy people to choose from in the dating pool.
> 
> They are either damaged too much from their relationships and need more time to heal but they are lonely so insist on dating and looking for the next one anyway. Or they don't accept responsibility which is demonstrated mostly by complaining about the ex with no acknowledgement that they contributed (even I contributed by lack of boundaries in an abusive relationship). Or they have poor communication skills and limited understanding of the importance of same. Or they just aren't very self aware and not very far along on the journey to self actualization. Often rigid and intolerant, crass, judgmental, whiny, selfish or insecure.
> 
> I refuse to settle, but everyone I have dated has fallen into one of the categories above, even those I dated for nearly a year.
> 
> Is it me? Am I expecting too much? Do I know just enough to be dangerous? I think my 'intimidation' of men that has been noted by friends could be more than my ability to handle power tools. Maybe it's in my expectations of what I want in partner.
> 
> Do others of you find that, as you begin seeing someone or even just talking with them that you quickly realize some deficiency that leaves you concerned about their ability to have a mature, honest, mutually satisfying, cooperative relationship?


:iagree: I totally agree. This has been the biggest learning experience in my life. And I'm still learning. I was just having a conversation about this yesterday. Either the divorce papers still wet, haven't lived alone long enough to learn what went wrong in their relationship. And worked on themselves AND not emotionally available. Like their ex is still on their cell phone plan or vise verse just to save money. And also has key to their place. WTH? People "try" and be deceitful. The scars eventually show. My NEW RULE NO DATES if they haven't lived alone and DIVORCED 3 years. Tired of them wasting my life. I personally like to charge counselors fee.


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## poppyseed

zillard said:


> Checking in with a text or call
> Unilateral decisions
> Compromise
> Consideration
> Etc.
> 
> I can see how those things would be difficult when out of practice, with no intention of disrespect.


There are people who are selfish / or self-centred as they are inherently dominators in relationships ..in my observation, not necessarily, they were "out of practice"..perhaps some form of personality deficits.


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## poppyseed

Cooper said:


> Poppyseed I guess the best we can hope for is meeting someone who makes us "forget" all the past and who stimulates us on enough on many different levels that we are willing to give up some of our precious energy.
> 
> Another thing I have considered about Enjoli's original post is some of us find it very easy to be single, and some of us enjoy being single. I am like that, always able to be happy and content in my own company and doing my own thing. Truthfully there are times I feel the only reason I even consider a relationship is because it's "expected" and "normal", a bit of social conformity maybe.


Hi Cooper

Yes, there is that - who wouldn't? (re. social conformity) We are surrounded by couples who seem to be content and happy building their life together..doing things together, traveling and holding hands etc at least, from outside, they seem "happy" in that mutual support network - a man and his Wife/or GF. This is a cultural thing. They may not be completely happy underneath - there may be a mistress lurking somewhere but these couples do look happy and we, at times feel obliged to join in and pretend as if we are part of that mainstream agenda and try to be one of these "happy" and normal people. We look around and socially skilled people are all busy with their new relationship, new GF, career, their first travels together and so on. I totally get that.


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## EnjoliWoman

poppyseed said:


> There are people who are selfish / or self-centred as they are inherently dominators in relationships ..in my observation, not necessarily, they were "out of practice"..perhaps some form of personality deficits.


Hm - I see where this can be somewhat of a habit or learned thing. My ex used to fuss at me when we were first married because if I was thirsty I got a drink. He pointed out that it would be considerate to say "I'm getting a drink, do you want anything?" It was just the difference in being accustomed to doing things on my own vs. with someone.

Now I'm very considerate that way. Heck, I'll do it when I'm at someone else's house!


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## Trickster

hereinthemidwest said:


> :iagree: I totally agree. This has been the biggest learning experience in my life. And I'm still learning. I was just having a conversation about this yesterday. Either the divorce papers still wet, haven't lived alone long enough to learn what went wrong in their relationship. And worked on themselves AND not emotionally available. Like their ex is still on their cell phone plan or vise verse just to save money. And also has key to their place. WTH? People "try" and be deceitful. The scars eventually show. My NEW RULE NO DATES if they haven't lived alone and DIVORCED 3 years. Tired of them wasting my life. I personally like to charge counselors fee.


Three years? 

Do you really see it as wasting your life?

Do the guys you meet really still whine about their ex?

Do you ever ask them why they D? 

A guy in my hiking group is recently D after 25 years. I asked him what happened? He replied something like, "I don't like to look at the past. I have a new life ahead of me". 

Is that something you would like to hear? 


Emotionally available? What does that mean to you?


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## Rowan

Trickster said:


> A guy in my hiking group is recently D after 25 years. I asked him what happened? He replied something like, "I don't like to look at the past. I have a new life ahead of me".
> 
> Is that something you would like to hear?


As a guy in your hiking group, that answer is just fine. But from a man I was dating, that's something that, to me, would signal a _real_ need for some more information. It's got "non-answer" and "potential red flag" all over it.

Why? Because it's roughly what my ex-husband tells people when he's asked why we divorced. The truth is that I divorced him as quickly as possible after finding out he'd been a serial cheater our entire marriage. So, a non-answer or a statement that "it's all in the past" just sounds shifty and vaguely sketchy to me. It sounds like what people say when they don't want to admit their ex-spouse kicked them to the curb for a very good reason. I wouldn't immediately bail, but I would need some clarification in order to decide whether or not to keep seeing him.


----------



## Arendt

angelpixie said:


> I know I've posted these two questions many times for others on TAM, but when I read them in a book about abuse, they summed up so much:
> 
> 1. What about me allowed me to be attracted to this dysfunctional person (instead of running away, as a healthy person would have done)?
> 
> 2. What about me was attractive to this dysfunctional person (dysfunctional people don't get involved with healthy people -- healthy people won't take their sh!t)?


I just had my last IC session after a year and half going. My IC said that thoughI'll be around another month he saw no reason I should keep coming. We sat and talked about life and he said he could see a huge difference in me from a year and a half ago and wanted to know what I thought. I said that I had learned that I am not entitled to anything for one thing. That sense of entitlement is one of the things that broke my marriage. It was underneath so much of my behavior that my wife found so unattractive and ultimately a deal-breaker. I'm also more accepting of others because I don't feel entitled to anything from them. I also did a huge "moral inventory" to get rid of all these petty resentments I had built up. I don't talk bad about my ex. She dealt with her pain in her way and I wish her the very best in life.

I only came to that position because my IC was able to push me to not focus on her but on myself: why does that make you angry? What is anger? How do you use it? Etc. He never let me sit and whine about her in his office without asking me about myself and redirecting me. I learned a lot. 

If and when I start dating again, I'll get back into counseling more than likely so I can have a new perspective on the whole enterprise. I don't want to bring the same old stuff into a new thing.

It is kind of sad to hear about all the ****heads out there who don't use there divorces and such to become better people. The last thing I want to hear from somebody is how bad her ex hurt her on the first date and a continuous whining about it without self-examination. Focus on yourself: that log in my eye.

Anyway...I'm separated over a year and a half the divorce will be final next month. I'm looking into this section mainly to see what people are dealing with post-divorce. I feel like I already learned about my behavior and what I did to contribute to what became an unhealthy marriage. I suspect I'll need counseling for trust issues down the road due to her actions, but at least I know that.


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## bravenewworld

I've been thinking a lot about this thread. Does anyone else feel like their physical appearance is holding them back? Not as in "I'm not attractive" but more like "I'm not where I want to be physically." 

While I consider myself a confident person, I tend to be a bit too shy. I feel like when I meet my physical fitness goals, I'll be less nervous about flirting with people I think are attractive.

That said, my fitness goals are important to me foremost because I want to live my best life. Dating confidence would be a happy byproduct.


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## poppyseed

Rowan said:


> Why? Because it's roughly what my ex-husband tells people when he's asked why we divorced. The truth is that I divorced him as quickly as possible after finding out he'd been a serial cheater our entire marriage. So, a non-answer or a statement that "it's all in the past" just sounds shifty and vaguely sketchy to me.
> 
> It sounds like what people say when they don't want to admit their ex-spouse kicked them to the curb for a very good reason. I wouldn't immediately bail, but I would need some clarification in order to decide whether or not to keep seeing him.


I think I hear what you're saying. I don't think men would want to discuss anything so personal to someone he had just met once or twice etc. Reason: that info belongs to him and not to you. or He had reasons to keep private. At least, he did not say how bad his ex-wife was (if he did, that would be a huge, huge red flag) by telling you for examples, she did this or she did that.. D isn't a pleasant subject and he did not wish to discuss as he would feel vulnerable and he did not feel comfortable doing that. 

Some people don't want to bring up the past as they are trying to live in the present as well. It's not a necessarily a red flag. You can also be lied to and you may believe what you are told. Just be wary of what people tell you in my opinion...He stated he didn't want to discuss end of the story - perhaps, you felt slightly rejected by his boundary x


----------



## Satya

*Re: Re: Prospects for Healthy Relationship*



Trickster said:


> A guy in my hiking group is recently D after 25 years. I asked him what happened? He replied something like, "I don't like to look at the past. I have a new life ahead of me".


You could read into this lots of ways. I've said something similar to others who asked me why I divorced. It was a combination of my attitude (optimist/realist) with my boundaries (none of your business). It was my polite way of closing the subject. 

I could have said, "what happened was my husband decided he wanted to be a woman," but that tends to make people uncomfortable. I've seen it enough to know by now that people can rarely handle the truth if it's not what they expected! Don't want anyone to slip off the mountain. 

On the subject of people set in their ways due to singlehood, I agree. I actually worked hard to avoid living life as a single person after my D... Ever heard of the exercise where you empty half of your closet to make room for the person (not yet) in your life? Yeah, I did lots of "homework" like this. It's benefitted me well enough but my issue has been the men I've dated very much want to keep their lifestyles exactly as is. Doesn't really compute for me, if what they say is that they want a LTR! You have to act like it, but it means retraining all that muscle memory (brain muscle). You just can't teach others this stuff, they have to want to embrace it.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I think there is a way to answer that question without revealing too much too soon OR condemning yourself if you are the primary reason a relationship failed. 

I've heard "well, that's more of a 5th date thing" all the way to a complete story of the woman's cheating and everything in between. 

Long, drawn out explanations tend to tell me they are still harboring some resentment OR they feel some guilt and they want to justify their actions, even if it's simply to justify a divorce and they didn't do anything awful. Either way I know they aren't really in a good place for a relationship.

If someone is evasive, I would respect that boundary but I would also expect the answer on the 5th date and I won't be having sex before I know more.

Men also shy away when I tell them the relationship was abusive. There are LOTS of women who cry wolf, most men have either experienced it or know a guy who has had it happen to them so I understand their hesitancy.

So I usually start off with the fact I married so young that I was quite naive and didn't have the life experience to make a good decision in selecting a partner. I may reveal a little more over the course of the evening, such as being stubborn or afraid to admit failure and sticking it out too long. Eventually I reveal the verbal abuse, adding in that it was sometimes physical as well.

The custody and post-divorce drama is definitely not something I share right away. Usually I do mention some of the key issues with parenting, that I sensed something just wasn't right by his extreme moods, words and actions and mention the psychological evaluation and let them know that I also participated and have had my mind poked and prodded and passed with flying colors.  That's usually plenty for quite a while. Only two men know more than that and only one has the uncensored version.

It's not trickle truth so much as trickle reveal and focused more on what I've learned from the experience. And I kind of like the same approach from men. Focus on the future but learn from the past.

While I understand the need for boundaries, not over-sharing and maintaining privacy, when someone completely dodges the topic, I'd be concerned they didn't learn from the past.


----------



## ne9907

bravenewworld said:


> I've been thinking a lot about this thread. Does anyone else feel like their physical appearance is holding them back? Not as in "I'm not attractive" but more like "I'm not where I want to be physically."
> 
> While I consider myself a confident person, I tend to be a bit too shy. I feel like when I meet my physical fitness goals, I'll be less nervous about flirting with people I think are attractive.
> 
> That said, my fitness goals are important to me foremost because I want to live my best life. Dating confidence would be a happy byproduct.


I do not think my physical appearance is holding me back. I used to believe that, especially while being married and right after my divorce, but I have been working on myself and I know I am attractive.

I do need to lose about 10 pounds, but it is not something I MUST do. I just want to because of my fitness~

We are all beautiful.... speaking of beautiful. 
Rant on: People who post inspirational quotes on FB alluding to the fact that they may not be beautiful on the outside, but they are beautiful in the INSIDE.... eventhough I know these people are rotten to the core!! rant off


----------



## unsure78

poppyseed said:


> I think I hear what you're saying.  I don't think men would want to discuss anything so personal to someone he had just met once or twice etc. Reason: that info belongs to him and not to you. or He had reasons to keep private. At least, he did not say how bad his ex-wife was (if he did, that would be a huge, huge red flag) by telling you for examples, she did this or she did that.. D isn't a pleasant subject and he did not wish to discuss as he would feel vulnerable and he did not feel comfortable doing that.
> 
> Some people don't want to bring up the past as they are trying to live in the present as well. It's not a necessarily a red flag. You can also be lied to and you may believe what you are told. Just be wary of what people tell you in my opinion...He stated he didn't want to discuss end of the story - perhaps, you felt slightly rejected by his boundary x


I get out hiking maybe don't want to discuss that its personal business...on a date, that's fair game ( you learn a lot from someones past dating/marriage history, people often don't change without a great deal of effort, so history tends to repeat itself)...

I agree in most of my dates, men who don't want to discuss why, usually have something to hide... and if the D is ALL the spouses fault, then no personal reflection has been done... 

Yes and people can always lie, and do often


----------



## poppyseed

EnjoliWoman said:


> While I understand the need for boundaries, not over-sharing and maintaining privacy, when someone completely dodges the topic, I'd be concerned they didn't learn from the past.


I totally get what you mean - what I am trying to say is, do you think he will tell YOU the truth if he was the leaver / one who lied and cheated etc? And will you trust him? He's dating and he probably wants to make him look nice particularly if he liked you, for example. Dating is a real minefield.


----------



## poppyseed

unsure78 said:


> I get out hiking maybe don't want to discuss that its personal business...on a date, that's fair game ( you learn a lot from someones past dating/marriage history, people often don't change without a great deal of effort, so history tends to repeat itself)...
> 
> I agree in most of my dates, men who don't want to discuss why, usually have something to hide... and if the D is ALL the spouses fault, then no personal reflection has been done...
> 
> Yes and people can always lie, and do often


:iagree:

Yes. Yes. Yes. 

"Prospects for Healthy Relationship" is an intriguing topic..but it's a little like "Will our Health always stay Healthy"? The answer could be "I/you honestly wouldn't know for sure." There is no guarantees attached in a relationship.


----------



## SamuraiJack

poppyseed said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Yes. Yes. Yes.
> 
> "Prospects for Healthy Relationship" is an intriguing topic..but it's a little like "Will our Health always stay Healthy"? The answer could be "I/you honestly wouldn't know for sure." There is no guarantees attached in a relationship.


This essentially became my litmus test. If they were too eager to simply "fall in love" then they hadnt doen the work. IF they felt it was all the other person's fault, they hadnt done the work. If they cursed out their ex on the first dat, they didnt even enroll in the class.

Once you have done the work yourself, it becomes very evident who did and didnt do it....mostly...

There will always be a few out there who will distract you with hotness or a real good patter.

Personally, I like to see someone in the process of puzzling something out. It shows their character and their attempt to grow.


----------



## unsure78

SamuraiJack said:


> This essentially became my litmus test. If they were too eager to simply "fall in love" then they hadnt doen the work. IF they felt it was all the other person's fault, they hadnt done the work. If they cursed out their ex on the first dat, they didnt even enroll in the class.
> 
> Once you have done the work yourself, it becomes very evident who did and didnt do it....mostly...
> 
> There will always be a few out there who will distract you with hotness or a real good patter.
> 
> Personally, I like to see someone in the process of puzzling something out. It shows their character and their attempt to grow.




:iagree:


----------



## EnjoliWoman

bravenewworld said:


> I've been thinking a lot about this thread. Does anyone else feel like their physical appearance is holding them back? Not as in "I'm not attractive" but more like "I'm not where I want to be physically."
> 
> While I consider myself a confident person, I tend to be a bit too shy. I feel like when I meet my physical fitness goals, I'll be less nervous about flirting with people I think are attractive.
> 
> That said, my fitness goals are important to me foremost because I want to live my best life. Dating confidence would be a happy byproduct.


Meant to answer this... I've always been chubby with the exception of a short spell in my late teens/early 20s. So I think I got used to be perceived as less attractive which contributed to my being charmed by the attention of my Ex and I'm sure a narcissist can easily spot an insecure person and take advantage of that. 

Then my confidence grew based on my personal growth and new abilities and accomplishments, I updated my look (I've never been good at "fashion") and dated a lot although I was still chubby. At one point I was very frustrated that a friend who was rather unattractive in her face but slender always got more attention out than I did. Then I realized I didn't want THAT attention from THOSE guys. And I readjusted my thoughts.

Meanwhile through all of this I've been bigger or smaller but always thinking more about the perception of the opposite sex and swinging wildly from "the right guy will love me as I am" to the "no one will get to know the inside until the outside is slim". Reality is somewhere between those two extremes.

Meanwhile, I have really started focusing on my health and self-perception. I realized if I don't get my weight/health/fitness under control NOW it will only get harder and maybe now that my other accomplishments have given me confidence, it seems easier to focus on getting fit and healthy. I've never made so much progress before in my life and it's less about the scale and more about how I look in MY eyes vs. anyone else.

So yes, I've been there, not there any longer but there were a lot of years of in between. Down 36 pounds; almost to my 10-minute-mile goal; lost more than 10 inches and a clothing size. And none of it was done for anyone else.


----------



## bravenewworld

EnjoliWoman said:


> Meanwhile, I have really started focusing on my health and self-perception. I realized if I don't get my weight/health/fitness under control NOW it will only get harder and maybe now that my other accomplishments have given me confidence, it seems easier to focus on getting fit and healthy. I've never made so much progress before in my life and it's less about the scale and more about how I look in MY eyes vs. anyone else.


This is exactly where I'm at too. It's not about "I want to wear a size whatever jeans" as much as I want to feel strong and physically fit. I've come so far, but I KNOW I can go even further with my fitness. And I want to give myself that gift of health. 

Maybe this is shallow, but I also want the mirror to reflect how I see myself. Right now I see someone who is attractive but also a touch chubby. I want to present myself as someone who is proud of their body and takes excellent care of it. I'm getting there, slowly but surely - "Little Engine that Could" style. 

Also, I want a guy a bit more on the athletic side and I think it's fair to hold myself to the same standard. A movie night once or twice a week is cool, but I don't want someone whose fav activity is sitting on the couch until they sprout. 



EnjoliWoman said:


> So yes, I've been there, not there any longer but there were a lot of years of in between. Down 36 pounds; almost to my 10-minute-mile goal; lost more than 10 inches and a clothing size. And none of it was done for anyone else.


That's so awesome Enjoli! Congrats. I'm down some weight too (as per my "motivational" sig ticker) and have also come so far in terms of fitness. Now I can go hiking, surfing, etc. when before I would get so winded I was stuck watching everyone else have fun. I HATED that! Last week I did a three hour hike uphill and didn't have to stop once to catch my breath. That was really cool! :smthumbup:

Also, I've been doing a lot of intense stretching and decompressed my spine so much, I grew an inch! I didn't even know that was possible until it happened. The doctor said my posture difference is astounding.


----------



## Trickster

EnjoliWoman said:


> I think there is a way to answer that question without revealing too much too soon OR condemning yourself if you are the primary reason a relationship failed.
> 
> I've heard "well, that's more of a 5th date thing" all the way to a complete story of the woman's cheating and everything in between.
> 
> Long, drawn out explanations tend to tell me they are still harboring some resentment OR they feel some guilt and they want to justify their actions, even if it's simply to justify a divorce and they didn't do anything awful. Either way I know they aren't really in a good place for a relationship.
> 
> If someone is evasive, I would respect that boundary but I would also expect the answer on the 5th date and I won't be having sex before I know more.
> 
> Men also shy away when I tell them the relationship was abusive. There are LOTS of women who cry wolf, most men have either experienced it or know a guy who has had it happen to them so I understand their hesitancy.
> 
> So I usually start off with the fact I married so young that I was quite naive and didn't have the life experience to make a good decision in selecting a partner. I may reveal a little more over the course of the evening, such as being stubborn or afraid to admit failure and sticking it out too long. Eventually I reveal the verbal abuse, adding in that it was sometimes physical as well.
> 
> The custody and post-divorce drama is definitely not something I share right away. Usually I do mention some of the key issues with parenting, that I sensed something just wasn't right by his extreme moods, words and actions and mention the psychological evaluation and let them know that I also participated and have had my mind poked and prodded and passed with flying colors.  That's usually plenty for quite a while. Only two men know more than that and only one has the uncensored version.
> 
> It's not trickle truth so much as trickle reveal and focused more on what I've learned from the experience. And I kind of like the same approach from men. Focus on the future but learn from the past.
> 
> While I understand the need for boundaries, not over-sharing and maintaining privacy, when someone completely dodges the topic, I'd be concerned they didn't learn from the past.


How much truth is too much?

Physical and emotional abuse?

I bet you're a tough cookie...I am sure it must be hard to talk about that in a new relationship... 

Is it better to say nothing at all negative about the ex?

What about the old..."We just grew apart. We get along great now that we are divorced"?

There is always drama after a D. I would never want to unload all my baggage on a potential good woman...



I would rather not wait 3 years post D until I could be somewhat normal to date... 

I have never been normal.


----------



## unsure78

3 yrs is a really long time... my baseline for a guy is usually more 1 yr post D, things have usually calmed down by then... but if there was a long separation (not in-house) that seems to make a difference too...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## whitehawk

l worry about explain what happened to . Because taken the wrong way l could look like an [email protected] but there was so much more to it.
like the way l was being treated, like stress and cluster fk we'd both gone though and then all those simple unintended mistakes we all just make .

l know any good women will understand and they have , the few so far where we've talked about our stuff. But you worry that one serious one maybe understanding a full story maybe ain't her strong point you know .

But most of the women seem to be able to just get away with oh, he was and [email protected] , he did this he did that and that's not even questioned.
But it should be because why did he and when l've delved a little deeper, from a guys perspective l can often see exactly why he did . But they seem to be able to automatically have the fine print bypassed and even get sympathy just by saying things about him. 

But any guy knows there are just as many women out there as there are guys that can get up to all sorts of tricks and be a nightmare to live with too.
But they don't seem to be forced to admit that or change or learn from it and can just rug sweep because he's obviously just an [email protected] .
So with some l've met so far l see they have no idea or even if they did they can just get away with that one so maybe in something new just do the same thing again.
So l just hope l don't end up the something new in one of those sitches because l've seen it pretty strongly already.
As a matter of fact , don't think l've heard one women so far admit she was this or she did that , he was just an [email protected] .
No ones ever admitted once to screwing around or flirting with his friends like gf's and wives do every day , or partying or out drunk and clubbing till all hours or being a necrotic b2tch to live with .


----------



## Trickster

Before my wife came along, I was dating a woman... Don't know if I could even call it "dating" we never went out on and actual "date". She would just come over when I called her to hang out together. Sex was a big part of our time together.

After 6 month, I started to trust her enough to open up about my childhood. Iam not sure why I wanted to open up to her. So when I revealed my disfuntional childhood, she politely got up and left.. Said something like you're more phuked-up than me...and left....

I though we were doing pretty good.

When I met my wife, I told her everything...EVERYTHING....and she stayed...its been 22 years. 

For my next relationship, I don't know how I can NOT talk about my past..I'll have too though...

Simple questions like...

Where do your parents live?

Do you have siblings?

Where did you grow up?

Why did you move to Texas?

Those simple questions and more will lead into something disfuntional. 
So even if I have grown past my disfunctions, I have enough to scare most normal women away...

I have changed so much since my early adult life... I have changed a lot this past year. All of it feels like an illusion, like I am wearing a mask.....There is another person lurking beneath the surface, one that I haven't let anybody see, except my wife... I just don't know if that person will reveal itself in a future romantic relationships, or if a woman can tell or get that disfuntion vibe, whether I am healed or not.


----------



## Rowan

Trickster said:


> Before my wife came along, I was dating a woman... Don't know if I could even call it "dating" we never went out on and actual "date". She would just come over when I called her to hang out together. Sex was a big part of our time together.
> 
> After 6 month, I started to trust her enough to open up about my childhood. Iam not sure why I wanted to open up to her. So when I revealed my disfuntional childhood, she politely got up and left.. Said something like you're more phuked-up than me...and left....
> 
> I though we were doing pretty good.


I think the problem here was probably that the woman just wanted a FWB. You, it seems, thought the relationship was heading somewhere. She was fine with the booty-call setup. I think that knowing about your past was just more than she wanted from your relationship. She was in it for sex and easy, no-strings, companionship. It might not have mattered how normal or vanilla your childhood was, because she simply wasn't interested in that level of intimacy with you.

But, I do agree that there is a time and place for sharing your life story. And FWB or other casual relationships aren't it. It also likely pays to save that sort of thing for a time when it's clear that you both seem to think that the relationship is going somewhere. Then again, I also think that there are some people who are just going to flake on anyone who has any sort of past. But that's okay. It's better they run early than spend more time in something they can't or don't want to handle and end up running later when there's more hurt to go around.


----------



## Rowan

whitehawk said:


> l worry about explain what happened to . Because taken the wrong way l could look like an [email protected] but there was so much more to it.
> like the way l was being treated, like stress and cluster fk we'd both gone though and then all those simple unintended mistakes we all just make .
> 
> l know any good women will understand and they have , the few so far where we've talked about our stuff. But you worry that one serious one maybe understanding a full story maybe ain't her strong point you know .
> 
> But most of the women seem to be able to just get away with oh, he was and [email protected] , he did this he did that and that's not even questioned.
> But it should be because why did he and when l've delved a little deeper, from a guys perspective l can often see exactly why he did . But they seem to be able to automatically have the fine print bypassed and even get sympathy just by saying things about him.
> 
> But any guy knows there are just as many women out there as there are guys that can get up to all sorts of tricks and be a nightmare to live with too.
> But they don't seem to be forced to admit that or change or learn from it and can just rug sweep because he's obviously just an [email protected] .
> So with some l've met so far l see they have no idea or even if they did they can just get away with that one so maybe in something new just do the same thing again.
> So l just hope l don't end up the something new in one of those sitches because l've seen it pretty strongly already.
> As a matter of fact , don't think l've heard one women so far admit she was this or she did that , he was just an [email protected] .
> No ones ever admitted once to screwing around or flirting with his friends like gf's and wives do every day , or partying or out drunk and clubbing till all hours or being a necrotic b2tch to live with .


So, don't accept the "he was just an @sshole" as the final story. Ask more questions. If she really has no concept of her own mistakes, or is unwilling to talk about what really happened, then she's not the one. You can't force a woman to be honest or to take responsibility for her own part in her divorce (or whatever), but you actually can refuse to allow that to be your problem. Stop going out with the women who turn out to be flaky. 

Me, personally? Well, my ex-husband actually just was an @sshole. But that's not what I tell people when they ask, and it's not what I plan to tell prospective partners when I begin dating again. I generally give some version of the following, depending on my relationship with the person asking and their need-to-know:

_I married my high school sweetheart right after college, but having grown up together made it hard for me to really see the dynamic of our relationship clearly. He was an addictive personality with a high need for novelty and a short attention span. I had very low self-esteem and was willing to tolerate way too much for way too long. In the end, my ex-husband and I had very different ideas about what was acceptable in a marriage. When I discovered that he had been cheating on me off and on for the entire marriage, I divorced him. It was a very amicable divorce, we co-parent well and are on friendly terms, and I sincerely wish him happiness.​_Is that going to scare some guys off? Sure. Do I care? Not really. The ones who matter won't mind and the one's who mind won't matter - to badly paraphrase Dr. Seuss.


----------



## Dreald

Healthy relationship for a Man?:

- Don't Marry
- Don't Cohabitate
- Don't Have Children
- Go Your Own Way

Let her be responsible for herself. Instead of providing for her and being blamed for the terrible Patriarchy in which provided and protected her all these years. 

MGTOWHQ.COM
A Voice For Men
The Red Pill Blogspot
Reddit The Red Pill Room


----------



## zillard

Might work for you... but I'm glad I'm not that kind of man.

You know it is possible to marry, cohabitate, have kids, and still let your partner be responsible for her/himself, right?


----------



## Dreald

zillard said:


> Might work for you... but I'm glad I'm not that kind of man.
> 
> You know it is possible to marry, cohabitate, have kids, and still let your partner be responsible for her/himself, right?


Yes, but it's like finding the proverbial unicorn. A bet I wouldn't take. And not one that I'd likely wager when 50% of my assets and future child support are taken, simply because she's not "Haaappy!". Have you stopped to look at the divorce rate when it went to a no fault divorce standard? Google it and tell em why 70-90% of divorces are initiated by the wife.

If you've been on here for any length of time, you know there's a small percentage of women who will acknowledge their role in their marriage's decline. Blame-shifting, scape-goating and hamsterization are common. 

But most men like yourself never see it through that paradigm, until like many others, have been raped through Family Courts and Divorce Corp. Only then will you awaken and realize this: "Women have choices; Men have responsibilities"


----------



## zillard

Letting our partners/spouses be responsible is more about what WE do.

What I see is that if we choose to be responsible, without accepting responsibility for their crap, we allow them to choose us AND be responsible. 

Rare? Probably. 

But that's not all on the women.


----------



## unsure78

Wow just wow....

I agree with zillard...

And if you look around this site just as many women were left and cheated on by men... there are examples of men and women here on TAM who show the great side of each sex and there are examples of the bad side too...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Dreald said:


> Healthy relationship for a Man?:
> 
> - Don't Marry
> - Don't Cohabitate
> - Don't Have Children
> - Go Your Own Way


This doesn't sound like a fulfilling relationship, or much of one at all. To me.

If you are happy with that, and find fulfillment, then it IS healthy for you. And I support it.


----------



## Dreald

zillard said:


> Letting our partners/spouses be responsible is more about what WE do.
> 
> What I see is that if we choose to be responsible, without accepting responsibility for their crap, we allow them to choose us AND be responsible.
> 
> Rare? Probably.
> 
> But that's not all on the women.


I agree with your statement -- wholeheartedly. It's a foundation for Men Going Their Own Way. Own your life, own your responsibility. Do NOT be dependent on others to make you happy. Do not let emotion overcome logic/basic understanding. 

And true, I never said all women -- I'm happily dating a woman who probably fits the NAWALT. She too was married for a short period to her college boyfriend of 10 years. She agrees that marriage is an illusory contract and typically benefits her gender. She also agrees that having kids does not guarantee happiness nor brings a couple closer together. 

She enjoys the whole notion of Living Apart Together concept as do I. Will we ever get to the point of publicly recognized commitment? Hopefully. Does either one of us want to bring the State into our personal affairs again? Nope.

For you see, there's nothing that exists in marriage nowadays that can't be had outside of marriage (except certain tax and legal aspects). Unless one was wanting kids or interested in going into politics (aka "The George Clooney"), then marriage is simply a form of wealth redistribution when one party decides to pull the rip cord. Do I really need to mention that 2/3 of the time, the woman files for divorce; ~89% of the time she receives alimony/child support, 94% of the time she receives full custody? Anyone see an inherent bias in that?

I'd rather have to my girlfriend earn my love and attention, much as I have to earn her love and respect. Marriage often compromises that aspect through a series of financial penalties and non parity of law should it dissolve. I see no reason to get married nowadays. Funnily enough, my 74 year old Dad said the same thing last year after witnessing his friend's sons go through **** via Family/Divorce Court.

But to each his own I guess.


----------



## whitehawk

Trickster said:


> Before my wife came along, I was dating a woman... Don't know if I could even call it "dating" we never went out on and actual "date". She would just come over when I called her to hang out together. Sex was a big part of our time together.
> 
> After 6 month, I started to trust her enough to open up about my childhood. Iam not sure why I wanted to open up to her. So when I revealed my disfuntional childhood, she politely got up and left.. Said something like you're more phuked-up than me...and left....
> 
> I though we were doing pretty good.
> 
> When I met my wife, I told her everything...EVERYTHING....and she stayed...its been 22 years.
> 
> For my next relationship, I don't know how I can NOT talk about my past..I'll have too though...
> 
> Simple questions like...
> 
> Where do your parents live?
> 
> Do you have siblings?
> 
> Where did you grow up?
> 
> Why did you move to Texas?
> 
> Those simple questions and more will lead into something disfuntional.
> So even if I have grown past my disfunctions, I have enough to scare most normal women away...
> 
> I have changed so much since my early adult life... I have changed a lot this past year. All of it feels like an illusion, like I am wearing a mask.....There is another person lurking beneath the surface, one that I haven't let anybody see, except my wife... I just don't know if that person will reveal itself in a future romantic relationships, or if a woman can tell or get that disfuntion vibe, whether I am healed or not.


Don't worry about it too much man , any good women will understand.
That one you were seeing was only in it for the fun she's not worth your time.


----------



## whitehawk

Dreald said:


> I agree with your statement -- wholeheartedly. It's a foundation for Men Going Their Own Way. Own your life, own your responsibility. Do NOT be dependent on others to make you happy. Do not let emotion overcome logic/basic understanding.
> 
> And true, I never said all women -- I'm happily dating a woman who probably fits the NAWALT. She too was married for a short period to her college boyfriend of 10 years. She agrees that marriage is an illusory contract and typically benefits her gender. She also agrees that having kids does not guarantee happiness nor brings a couple closer together.
> 
> She enjoys the whole notion of Living Apart Together concept as do I. Will we ever get to the point of publicly recognized commitment? Hopefully. Does either one of us want to bring the State into our personal affairs again? Nope.
> 
> For you see, there's nothing that exists in marriage nowadays that can't be had outside of marriage (except certain tax and legal aspects). Unless one was wanting kids or interested in going into politics (aka "The George Clooney"), then marriage is simply a form of wealth redistribution when one party decides to pull the rip cord. Do I really need to mention that 2/3 of the time, the woman files for divorce; ~89% of the time she receives alimony/child support, 94% of the time she receives full custody? Anyone see an inherent bias in that?
> 
> I'd rather have to my girlfriend earn my love and attention, much as I have to earn her love and respect. Marriage often compromises that aspect through a series of financial penalties and non parity of law should it dissolve. I see no reason to get married nowadays. Funnily enough, my 74 year old Dad said the same thing last year after witnessing his friend's sons go through **** via Family/Divorce Court.
> 
> But to each his own I guess.



Yeah it is true , especially those stats you mention .
So many guys are ruined after 20yrs of work and torn away from their children, houses,future earnings. Somehow the women seem to end up controlling the whole situation even if they screwed around.
My ex has people bending over backwards for the poor single mother that blew up her family , even her parents.
l've actually yet to meet a girl that admits she effd the marriage .

l do like the idea of finding that life together with someone new one day though. I like the life , l prefer it to single and hope to grow old with someone . And l guess is all the big [email protected] will be out of the way for us to, house , kids , finances . Probably both been through one marriage, rose colored glasses and me me me are a bit more realistic .
ps , most of the girls l've met so far give me some confidence about it, mostly very good women .


----------



## jpr

Dreald said:


> Own your life, own your responsibility. Do NOT be dependent on others to make you happy. Do not let emotion overcome logic/basic understanding.


I have found that there is a space between being dependent on someone else for your own happiness and being closed off, guarded, and defensive.

In that space, you are free and open to be vulnerable... trusting...your arms are open to love and connection....but, your autonomy is not lost. That is the space that I would prefer to live in. Everyday, I fight the impulse to close off my heart and protect it from all potential harm. It is a constant struggle for me--but, in the end, I think it is worth it. The risk is worth it to open yourself up to this beautiful space of protected and supported vulnerability.


Just because someone 'buys in' to the whole marriage, love, family, and happily ever ending, doesn't mean they are stupid or naive. ...and it doesn't mean they are destined for a life of disappointment and destitute. 

Dreald...that sort of live is obviously not for you. But, to say everyone should subscribe to your tenants of a relationship is very egocentric.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Trickster said:


> How much truth is too much?
> 
> Physical and emotional abuse?
> 
> I bet you're a tough cookie...I am sure it must be hard to talk about that in a new relationship...
> 
> Is it better to say nothing at all negative about the ex?
> 
> What about the old..."We just grew apart. We get along great now that we are divorced"?
> 
> There is always drama after a D. I would never want to unload all my baggage on a potential good woman...
> 
> 
> 
> I would rather not wait 3 years post D until I could be somewhat normal to date...
> 
> I have never been normal.


Actually it's not that hard to talk about. I have no problem sharing, but I gauge how much they can handle and stop when appropriate.

I also make it clear that just because I married a jerk I am NOT a man-hater, I'm NOT jaded and I don't assume all men are *******s.  

I refuse to be a victim so need no kid gloves. I think making that assertion along with owning my part of it makes it easy for people to absorb and move on. Anyone new in my life who finally hears the story is amazed, not only at the extremes of the court-related stuff but mostly they say "wow, you seem so put together, I'd never see you as someone who would have ever put up with that". Obviously I now portray externally the person I have become inside. 

I would have no problems hearing about a troubled past and there are very few things that I couldn't get past. I'd tend to ask some hard questions about how the experiences made you grow as a person.


----------



## hereinthemidwest

n


Trickster said:


> Three years?
> 
> Do you really see it as wasting your life?
> 
> Do the guys you meet really still whine about their ex?
> 
> Do you ever ask them why they D?
> 
> A guy in my hiking group is recently D after 25 years. I asked him what happened? He replied something like, "I don't like to look at the past. I have a new life ahead of me".
> 
> Is that something you would like to hear?
> 
> 
> Emotionally available? What does that mean to you?


Yes, I see as wasting my life. Because they are using up my time. When clearly they need to seek professional counselor or take more time to heal. And maybe work on themselves. 

I was married 26 years and you don’t get over that over night. And in the 5.5 years I’ve yet to meet a emotionally available man. Do they whine?? I had one guy I seen aprox 2 months before I told him I was not interested at all. He would tell me about driving by his ex wife to see if anyone car was there. He even told me he parked at the church and walked over to her condo and looked into her windows. TRUE

Another guy wife left him for someone else but he still spoke daily about her work and personal life with her new person. It was “ his inner workings” with her he claims. It maybe wasn't physical but clearly it was emotional and he allowed it. Still on family cell phone plan too. That was one strange break up. I didn't last long there. Wow

Yes, I asked them WHY they divorced. Never ONE time did any guy take responsibility for any problems in their marriage. ( Sorry guys not picking on you.) But telling you my experience in 5.5 years. 

What I've found that people are looking for the easy way out.
They want to rush into a relationsh1t because maybe their ex left them for someone. Or they want someone to move with them to help them $. I call it urge to merge. So they get lucky and find a women who has a great job, divorced, nice home and TRY to latch on by saying nice things ect. But their actions tell the real story. It eventually comes to the surface and shows.

Emotionally available to me means….emotionally and spiritually ready to receive love and give back in return. ( Over their ex )

I think the pool of healthy available people are slim in 40’s. We all have some baggage we picked up alone the way. Somehow I’m finding people with storage units. I’ve backed off on dating. Been working on myself for now. But No way do I want to settle for any of this. And great news I don’t have too. 

PS. And your guy in hiking group. I marry him if I was you.


----------



## Trickster

hereinthemidwest

I am a guy myself. I am still married but considering D and when that happens, there will be even more baggage piled on... The difference with me and the guys you have been meeting is I know the part I played in my disfuntional marriage. TAM helped me with that...

My hiking group... About 80 people on an average hike is full of mostly single, divorced, or about to be divorced messed up people. Some are married or in a relationship... It has given me a good gauge on what is out there. It is slim...
Many of the people say the same thing as you....people have way too much baggage.

I do know in my Townhome Community, there are many single, divorced women/moms as well.The same as my hiking group...

When people D after 20 plus years of marriage, how do people not talk about their marriage? I think I would want to know all the dirt up front. The good thing is that by the time we D, all my talking and blaming my wife will be over...I realize I don't talk about my wife nearly like I did 6 months ago....I am sure people around me are happier now.


----------



## poppyseed

hereinthemidwest said:


> Yes, I asked them WHY they divorced. Never ONE time did any guy take responsibility for any problems in their marriage. ( Sorry guys not picking on you.) But telling you my experience in 5.5 years.
> 
> What I've found that people are looking for the easy way out.
> They want to rush into a relationsh1t because maybe their ex left them for someone. Or they want someone to move with them to help them $. I call it urge to merge. So they get lucky and find a women who has a great job, divorced, nice home and TRY to latch on by saying nice things ect. But their actions tell the real story. It eventually comes to the surface and shows.


I hear you and I agree with you, hereinthemidwest. As for relation** ...:rofl:


----------



## poppyseed

hereinthemidwest said:


> Emotionally available to me means….emotionally and spiritually ready to receive love and give back in return. ( Over their ex )
> 
> I think the pool of healthy available people are slim in 40’s. We all have some baggage we picked up alone the way. Somehow I’m finding people *with storage units*. I’ve backed off on dating. Been working on myself for now. But No way do I want to settle for any of this. And great news I don’t have too.


I totally get your sentiment (which I share with) and thank you for your excellent sense of humour as well. 

Best,


----------



## movealong

Tomorrow is Independence Day for me. The 60 day waiting period will be over and the D can be finalized. I am no where near ready to actually date, but I did create a profile on match to see what would happen. I got a lot more interest than I thought I would from one profile picture and a simple blurb about me. 

But when I look at my age and price* range, most of them have profile pics and blurbs of their travels. I did my traveling when I was in the Navy and really don't want to be someone's travel companion. I do want a LTR, before I commit to a longer LTR, lol.

When I look at the profiles, some of them you can see they didn't take ownership of their part in the marriage falling apart, some are so overt that there is no need to read between the lines. I am grateful that I am an alcoholic, and that I am in AA. Taking the steps forced me not only to look at my part in ruining the relationship, it gave me the ability to own my part, clean up my part, and put checks and balances in place that will hopefully prevent me from making the same mistakes again.

Love/marriage, in my opinion, can be likened to alcoholism. It can be addicting, it can cause denial, it can cause you to do crazy sh#t that you would normally never do otherwise, and when it is gone there is a very painful withdrawal. I have used my program and the 12 steps in my divorce and it is really helping me heal. I wish more people understood that the 12 steps are not just for alcoholics. 

For instance, when I was having problems letting go, I substituted the XW's name for "alcohol" and worked the steps. 

Sounds silly, but it works as well as any therapy I had.

* price range = income level

I do not want to pay someone alimony if it eventually does not work out.


----------



## zillard

movealong said:


> Love/marriage, in my opinion, can be likened to alcoholism. It can be addicting, it can cause denial, it can cause you to do crazy sh#t that you would normally never do otherwise, and when it is gone there is a very painful withdrawal. I have used my program and the 12 steps in my divorce and it is really helping me heal. I wish more people understood that the 12 steps are not just for alcoholics.
> 
> For instance, when I was having problems letting go, I substituted the XW's name for "alcohol" and worked the steps.
> 
> Sounds silly, but it works as well as any therapy I had.


:smthumbup:


----------



## whitehawk

But on a better note or l guess to the other side of the coin. l'm some sort of person that often ends up on very personal levels both ways very easily with people.
And l've found the girls ask me and if they haven't talked about theirs , which they usually do anyway but if l wanna know l'll just ask , no biggie. And with just about every girl l've met so far before too long at all , we've usually talked a lot about our stuff . l've got no probs at all with this , not at all , l think it's only natural .
lt's only in the baggage way of it interfering with her head where l've got worries and l have noticed that quite a bit. But of course on the other hand , it is going to at least a bit isn't it , it's not that , it's only the letting it fk her head and so actions and reactions and your future that's the problem.
l like to think though , that maybe if l was to hook up with someone still in bad shape but together , we will help each other along the way to though you know.

lt's a weird thing though in my personal case . l don't actually have much bad [email protected] to say about my ex , not that l'd wanna fall into that trap or be the wining ex anyway but l just don't regardless .
And l often worry that might be interpreted as me still in love with her or something .


----------



## EnjoliWoman

On the flip side, I see so many wonderful men here, both married, divorcing and single, that it's encouraging. There ARE great men out there - many who have had the unfortunate experience of being married to someone who did not appreciate them. I'm not delusional enough to think they didn't contribute to the demise and they don't seem to be obvious, either.

I'm not looking for someone perfect or who has no baggage. What I'm looking for is a man who has grown, matured, learned and is open to a mutually satisfying relationship with open communication and sharing all of the ups and downs life will serve us.

I know I'm a great partner. I'm willing to listen, be supportive, honor him, do those special little things that show I think of his happiness, work to build a life, play and enjoy it and savor the peace as well. I only expect exactly the same in return.


----------



## movealong

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm not looking for someone perfect or who has no baggage. What I'm looking for is a man who has grown, matured, learned and is open to a mutually satisfying relationship with open communication and sharing all of the ups and downs life will serve us.
> 
> I know I'm a great partner. I'm willing to listen, be supportive, honor him, do those special little things that show I think of his happiness, work to build a life, play and enjoy it and savor the peace as well. I only expect exactly the same in return.


Sounds like a good dating site profile blurb!


----------



## Trickster

movealong said:


> Sounds like a good dating site profile blurb!


When I joined the hiking meet-up group, I noticed that most of the new women were greeted with dozens of people from the group on the message board. Mostly, the men welcomed the "new girl" to the group. In general, the men were never acknowledged by the group on the message board. Very few women welcomed the "new guy".

IMO, women have it easier when they first join a new group, especially if they are hot. During the hikes, most everybody seems to be friendly...with a 12 mile hike and 70-80 people, that's a lot of talking to a lot of people.....

I can see that men on match can be like vulchers and want to get to be the first to respond to the " new girl".

Be careful Enjoli


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Don't worry trickster - I'm not hot. 

And I have a very good BS meter. I've almost always been able to filter men out quickly and I haven't gone on more than a second date before I saw the true colors. (Aside from ex!)

All the men I feel I have a lot in common with want a trophy wife.  That I'm NOT.


----------



## zillard

EnjoliWoman said:


> Don't worry tricker - I'm not hot.
> 
> And I have a very good BS meter.


So do I, and you're full of it.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

zillard said:


> So do I, and you're full of it.


Ha - that's sweet but I'm not. I'm pretty enough, but I'm chubby (working on it - 37 down!) and you only have to check a few threads to know most men won't consider dating anyone that is overweight by any significant amount. But if I keep it up, by Christmas, I'll be hot.


----------



## Trickster

EnjoliWoman said:


> Ha - that's sweet but I'm not. I'm pretty enough, but I'm chubby (working on it - 37 down!) and you only have to check a few threads to know most men won't consider dating anyone that is overweight by any significant amount. But if I keep it up, by Christmas, I'll be hot.


It's one thing to be overweight and active, not being afraid to sweat, . It's a whole different story to be overweight and take no active role in getting healthy... 

Most people want the "hot" one... That's what we seek out first... Hot doesn't always mean the best.... 

You are after somebody where there is the right chemistry...

FWIW

I think you are adorable... I am the "Trickster" though...


----------



## whitehawk

Admittedly , there's been stages through all this where l've *****ed like a ***** on things ex. But not outside of tam though really.
These days though , that's just not who l want to be or of load onto someone new. Strangely enough to l just don't feel like being like that toward ex anymore.


----------



## whitehawk

Trickster said:


> When I joined the hiking meet-up group, I noticed that most of the new women were greeted with dozens of people from the group on the message board. Mostly, the men welcomed the "new girl" to the group. In general, the men were never acknowledged by the group on the message board. Very few women welcomed the "new guy".
> 
> IMO, women have it easier when they first join a new group, especially if they are hot. During the hikes, most everybody seems to be friendly...with a 12 mile hike and 70-80 people, that's a lot of talking to a lot of people.....
> 
> I can see that men on match can be like vulchers and want to get to be the first to respond to the " new girl".
> 
> Be careful Enjoli


Wish l had something like that somewhere near me , sounds really cool, love walking.
That guys at the girl aspect though , that'd irritate the hell out of me. Sit back and watch em all waste their time l spose , could be good for some amusement :lol:


----------



## whitehawk

EnjoliWoman said:


> Ha - that's sweet but I'm not. I'm pretty enough, but I'm chubby (working on it - 37 down!) and you only have to check a few threads to know most men won't consider dating anyone that is overweight by any significant amount. But if I keep it up, by Christmas, I'll be hot.



Haha that's really cool Enjol, enjoy the hotness :smthumbup:
lt's funny though . l take most stuff l read or sit back and grin about the so called trending , with a grain of salt.
Because out in the real world , there's just ordinary everyday people/couples, of all shapes and sizes and personalities . There's only 1 in 20 that are perfect and hell they probably fight like cats and dogs anyway :rofl:

When we were married , all the stuff you heard or read or come across out in the singles world was such a joke , so far from the real world , to us it was all just a bit of a wtf joke .
Can't take any of it too seriously .


----------



## Trickster

whitehawk said:


> Wish l had something like that somewhere near me , sounds really cool, love walking.
> That guys at the girl aspect though , that'd irritate the hell out of me. Sit back and watch em all waste their time l spose , could be good for some amusement :lol:


I don't think it is all that obvious... I am a guy though. Enjoli as well as most women have that good bs meter...i think its just a group of people getting to know others to develops friendships...I have seen a few love connections....in a good way...That's after dozens of hikes and getting to know each other over several months of weekly hikes...I think its a perfect way to get to know people... Its not always easy to talk to one person for 3 straight hours...

For myself, I can just practice being single... When that time comes, and it will, I will be emotionally ready.. I am already bored as heck talking about my wife... When she comes up in conversation, I don't want to go there anymore....it feels good.


----------



## whitehawk

My brother and l were talking about all this.
Admittedly, it's not really a healthy idea even touching on single stuff with him because he's whole love life's been your worst nightmare anyway but anyway.

He's noticed to how damaged and messed up women were , he's 41 so anywhere from 30's upward. But , he added to that he doesn't blame them , he's just as fkd up as any of them.
That really made me think as l probably am to now .

So l suppose the thing is , can't you just be honest and gentle with each other , go this new world together, supportingly, as one , why not ?


----------



## COguy

EnjoliWoman said:


> Ha - that's sweet but I'm not. I'm pretty enough, but I'm chubby (working on it - 37 down!) and you only have to check a few threads to know most men won't consider dating anyone that is overweight by any significant amount. But if I keep it up, by Christmas, I'll be hot.


Knock it off Goob!

[Super judgemental and incendiary comment] My recent experiences in dating has lead me to believe that women who have jobs, are pretty, and aren't married by the time they're in their 30's have some sort of emotional issue that makes them unable to have healthy relationships. Every girl I dated wanted to date a guy who was emotionally unavailable.

So then I thought to myself, "What about the women who are like me, who got divorced because they were in a bad relationship." And then I realized that I also have baggage...

So I basically have decided that finding someone who is sans baggage at this age just isn't going to happen. If someone was so great and didn't have any issues they would have been swooped up by now.

More importantly to me, like someone mentioned, is that someone is willing to accept their baggage and work on it.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Aw, I take "goob" as a sincere compliment there. I'm not a huge cow - I just know to find someone who is active they will want someone a bit more trim generally speaking. I'm about 30 pounds lighter than when you last saw me.

Yes, we all have baggage. I see on dating profiles "no drama/no baggage" and move on past. Because for the most part, we DO have baggage and I bet those guys do, too, only aren't introspective enough to realize it OR they don't have the emotional/intellectual capacity to deal with it. Especially if you have to put it out there. Most mature adults don't WANT drama or baggage but sometimes it's just a part of life. 

Heck, I discovered if someone hasn't lived enough to have baggage of SOME sort, then they've been too sheltered and aren't ready to cope with a lot of crap life just throws at you.


----------



## Satya

I don't see baggage as negative, if you carry it smartly. To me that means learning from the past, growing, owning your mistakes or lapses in judgement so that you can carry wisdom into the future. Heal yourself if you were hurt or damaged, or at least strive to search for healing.


----------



## Arendt

COguy said:


> Knock it off Goob!
> 
> [Super judgemental and incendiary comment] My recent experiences in dating has lead me to believe that women who have jobs, are pretty, and aren't married by the time they're in their 30's have some sort of emotional issue that makes them unable to have healthy relationships. Every girl I dated wanted to date a guy who was emotionally unavailable.


I know a few women in their thirties who are not married, and I am not sure it is anything about them so much as they have been invested thus far in getting degrees and finding a career. About now they are actually looking to settle a little now that they've achieved what they set out to do for themselves. That's cool with me. I didn't marry till I was 29. 

But I am not dating any of them or seeking to right now, so I am just talking from outside observation. I do see a lot of professional women and women in graduate schools who are getting older, single, with no kids though.


----------



## COguy

Arendt said:


> I know a few women in their thirties who are not married, and I am not sure it is anything about them so much as they have been invested thus far in getting degrees and finding a career. About now they are actually looking to settle a little now that they've achieved what they set out to do for themselves. That's cool with me. I didn't marry till I was 29.
> 
> But I am not dating any of them or seeking to right now, so I am just talking from outside observation. I do see a lot of professional women and women in graduate schools who are getting older, single, with no kids though.


The women I've dated in those situations have this attitude like, "I don't NEED a man." Which is code for, "I can't handle a healthy relationship." What's the point of being in a LTR if you're not ever vulnerable?


----------



## bravenewworld

COguy said:


> The women I've dated in those situations have this attitude like, "I don't NEED a man." Which is code for, "I can't handle a healthy relationship." What's the point of being in a LTR if you're not ever vulnerable?


Honestly, I don't feel like I need a man. I want a man (eventually) to share a healthy relationship with, but I don't need him. 

I define things I need as - food, oxygen, shelter, etc. Love is also a need, but it doesn't have to be a romantic love. Let's face it, the road to a passionate and sexual love affair is rarely smooth and I know I can be open and vulnerable without having one person as the "be all end all" in my life. All my eggs do not need to go into one basket. 

That said, I'm a codependent in recovery so perhaps I have a different perspective in regards to want vs. need issues. I think each person is responsible for their own needs. 

One thing that has bummed me out is how many men seem to overlook people like me who are successful, funny, smart, and kind for someone ten years younger. I had a guy in his 40s tell me women in their 30s are "past their prime." Pretty ridiculous a guy 15 years older than me is telling me I'm too old for him. :scratchhead:

Meanwhile, guys in their 20s hit on me all the time, which is so not what I'm looking for! It's really frustrating. I'm almost 5'10" and a size 8 (still losing weight and am in pretty good shape if I do say so myself) yet once again guys I'm interested in pass me over for the girl who is 5'4" and a size 2 even if she has nothing else going for her. And it's not like I am chasing male swimsuit models either - these guys are older, balding, shorter, etc. 

I try to go mostly off personality, and a little bit off looks. I won't date anyone obese though. Maybe I should be more shallow and go after some male models. After all, rejection is rejection right?


----------



## movealong

I refined my search to exclude any woman under 40. Maybe there are 'good' women under 40, but I do not want to go through toddlers and elementary school again with kids. 

Also, I really want a woman that is over 40 so that she, and I, have had time to sow their wild oats and are ready for a mature, really hot intense sexual relationship until our bodies get old and give out. LOL

I don't want to deal with drama, and that is what you get with most people under 40. Let me find a mature, intelligent, and attractive woman between 40 - 55 and I think i would be set.


----------



## Arendt

COguy said:


> The women I've dated in those situations have this attitude like, "I don't NEED a man." Which is code for, "I can't handle a healthy relationship." What's the point of being in a LTR if you're not ever vulnerable?


That might be your experience but some of the women I know do not fall into that category at all. One woman I know, now married, didn't marry till she was 34-35 and had her PhD and a teaching job somewhere. She's been married five years and has a little boy now. She waited till she met a man she felt comfortable with and until she had her priorities in line. It is very, very hard to finish a PhD and have a kid. I've seen people drop out after having kids. For a woman, it can be a real disaster career wise in academics to have a kid early like that.

I know other women in graduate school who are doing the same thing.

Nothing at all wrong with these women getting themselves situated before they try to find a long term relationship. I like that. They do not need a man to hold their hand through life. Some of them might be bossy alpha females (not my type in any way), but others are not that at all. They just have their priorities in a different order and getting married and having kids is not at the top. It has never been at the top of mine either so I respect that. Plus, I've read enough womanist and feminist literature to respect the fact that women should not need men and have their own careers and power. That might not be popular with some guys, but I don't really care. I don't live in the 1950s


----------



## COguy

Arendt said:


> Some of them might be bossy alpha females (not my type in any way),


Essentially what I'm saying. There's nothing wrong with having a career and being independent. But when you put off the vibe that it's your way or the highway, you're only going to attract guys that are OK with handing over the reins. Either that or they get with guys who are emotionally unavailable so there's no way they can "get close". I've seen it so many times that I just assume that's how it is now. I'm pretty judgemental though. I know there's exceptions but exceptions are exceptions.


----------



## COguy

bravenewworld said:


> Honestly, I don't feel like I need a man. I want a man (eventually) to share a healthy relationship with, but I don't need him.
> 
> I define things I need as - food, oxygen, shelter, etc. Love is also a need, but it doesn't have to be a romantic love. Let's face it, the road to a passionate and sexual love affair is rarely smooth and I know I can be open and vulnerable without having one person as the "be all end all" in my life. All my eggs do not need to go into one basket.
> 
> That said, I'm a codependent in recovery so perhaps I have a different perspective in regards to want vs. need issues. I think each person is responsible for their own needs.
> 
> One thing that has bummed me out is how many men seem to overlook people like me who are successful, funny, smart, and kind for someone ten years younger. I had a guy in his 40s tell me women in their 30s are "past their prime." Pretty ridiculous a guy 15 years older than me is telling me I'm too old for him. :scratchhead:
> 
> Meanwhile, guys in their 20s hit on me all the time, which is so not what I'm looking for! It's really frustrating. I'm almost 5'10" and a size 8 (still losing weight and am in pretty good shape if I do say so myself) yet once again guys I'm interested in pass me over for the girl who is 5'4" and a size 2 even if she has nothing else going for her. And it's not like I am chasing male swimsuit models either - these guys are older, balding, shorter, etc.
> 
> I try to go mostly off personality, and a little bit off looks. I won't date anyone obese though. Maybe I should be more shallow and go after some male models. After all, rejection is rejection right?


I say go Cougar 

Unfortunately, we are all animals. And in the animal world men are attracted to women mostly due to their beauty. I read a really interesting article, you can take it with a grain of salt but basically it outlined why marriage was created. Paleolithically, the alpha male would control as many women as he could and breed with them. It was the 80/20 rule (20% of guys controlled 80% of women). Women past their beauty age would end up alone, and any non-alpha male would have intense competition for "the leftovers."

The institution of marriage guaranteed that there could be one woman for every one man, and that the women wouldn't be discarded once their beauty waned.

I don't know how much of that I believe but there's certainly some merit in the raw instinct department. Guys are always going to be attracted to young women. So you'll have to find a guy that can short circuit that initial attraction and is willing to be in a relationship. Personally I want a girl who is more mature because young girls drive me crazy. Best way is to find a "target rich" environment. Don't go to the power bars, guys there are after the trophies.


----------



## Arendt

Bravenewworld: I think that the need versus want thing is a distinction with a difference. That is exactly right. Maybe you should seek out a few men who have hair, are in shape and are at least as tall as you. 

Movealong: Nobody under 40? How old are you? 

COGuy: I don't buy the alpha/beta stereotype because it is a stereotype and very few people fit into stereotypes in real life in my experience. Not only that but it is bad science. Wolves, for example, where the whole alpha /beta myth comes from, don't have alpha males that put others in place but work on a family model where the parents usually lead (I read a lot of ethology). And as for cavemen, what they did or did not do has little bearing on our current life in a technological society.

So I'm not at all sure that men in general go off looks primarily. Three of us on this board met our past wives before ever seeing a picture of them. Now had they looked horrible, I doubt any of us would have gotten married, but the reverse is also true. Had I looked like an upright donkey to my ex, she'd have backed off and kept me as a pen pal


----------



## COguy

You don't have to look to Neanderthals to understand power mechanics. Hell even today powerful men still control Harems of women. But not until Western Civilization really did the possibility of female autonomy really exist. Until that point, women were basically dependent on men, and the most powerful often had multiple wives.

The only thing that makes the freedom of women possible is the fact that we have a structured civilization that demands equal rights and punishes barbarism. That doesn't change genetics though... At the root, men want sex from pretty woman, and women are attracted to men who appear powerful.


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## Arendt

Three cheers for the Enlightenment I say! 

Genetics? Some men like to have sex with other men. Women the same. Some men like all kinds of things...personally, we men are pretty disgusting creatures sometimes. I sometimes find it hard to believe women are attracted to us at all 

In any case, we're not ruled by genes either, no matter what Dawkins and company have to say. Cooperation, not survival of the strong and dominant is what fuels evolution. Same in marriage. Cooperation fuels it, not male dominance.


----------



## angelpixie

COguy said:


> I say go Cougar
> 
> Unfortunately, we are all animals. And in the animal world men are attracted to women mostly due to their beauty. I read a really interesting article, you can take it with a grain of salt but basically it outlined why marriage was created. Paleolithically, the alpha male would control as many women as he could and breed with them. It was the 80/20 rule (20% of guys controlled 80% of women). Women past their beauty age would end up alone, and any non-alpha male would have intense competition for "the leftovers."
> 
> The institution of marriage guaranteed that there could be one woman for every one man, and that the women wouldn't be discarded once their beauty waned.
> 
> I don't know how much of that I believe but there's certainly some merit in the raw instinct department. Guys are always going to be attracted to young women. So you'll have to find a guy that can short circuit that initial attraction and is willing to be in a relationship. Personally I want a girl who is more mature because young girls drive me crazy. Best way is to find a "target rich" environment. Don't go to the power bars, guys there are after the trophies.


Just to give the opposite viewpoint to you COGuy, I want to put this out there. I'm attractive, but I'm no 'beauty.' I've never been in a sexual relationship with a guy my age. In fact, I've never been in a sexual relationship with someone less than 10 years younger than me. I didn't get married til I was nearly 36, and he was my first partner. It's not as easy to pigeonhole people as many seem to think. 

There are many reasons why women feel they 'need' or 'don't need' a man. For every time I've seen you decry women who 'don't need a man,' I've seen hundreds more posts here on TAM decrying 'needy' women who need a men to take care of them. Many of us who feel we don't need a man have gone through the whole "two as one, for better or worse, we're in this for life" bullshet, and ended up on our own, having been cheated on, financially in shambles, without an education or marketable job skills (because we put husband and kids first), or many other reasons. I simply refuse to tether myself that closely to anyone again. I have a son to take care of, and for once in my life, I'm making sure my own needs are met, too, and learning for once that THAT'S OK. It's way too easy to put down women for wanting to be strong and take care themselves, but many have gotten that way because the whole 'partner' thing didn't work out so well for them. Many of us have had to learn that the ONLY person who will be there for us our entire lives are ourselves. It doesn't do any good to subordinate that to try to make an insecure man happy. It won't, and you'll be left handling everything anyway.

That is not the same as "My way or the highway." It is saying "My way is as valid as your way, and you'd better be comfortable with that, or there's the door." Big difference.


----------



## unsure78

angelpixie said:


> Many of us have had to learn that the ONLY person who will be there for us our entire lives are ourselves.
> .


The truth....right there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## COGypsy

Now I'm really going to muck things up by posting on a thread with COGuy! We'll all try to keep the COGs straight!

My question is this--what should a woman "need" from a man? Or for that matter a man "need" from a woman? 

I'm not even trying to be smart. As much as a good, strong relationship can add to our lives, is it really a "need"? Will we die without it? Will the presence or absence of the opposite sex change our lives so much that it can be considered a "need"?


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## zillard

I don't "need" a woman. I want to be with one though. 

I think COGuy was referring to women who say they don't need a man, but really mean that they don't want one. At least not enough to compromise or put worthwhile effort into a relationship.

The difference between being independent/self sufficient and actually wanting to be alone.


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## nice777guy

COGypsy said:


> Now I'm really going to muck things up by posting on a thread with COGuy! We'll all try to keep the COGs straight!
> 
> My question is this--what should a woman "need" from a man? Or for that matter a man "need" from a woman?
> 
> I'm not even trying to be smart. As much as a good, strong relationship can add to our lives, is it really a "need"? *Will we die without it? Will the presence or absence of the opposite sex change our lives so much that it can be considered a "need"?*


Single men tend to die 5-10 years earlier than their married counterparts. Almost seems counterintuitive!

"Married men have their spouses to check in on them and make sure they are in their best of health, and they are likely encouraged or nagged to do something for their own good."


----------



## movealong

Arendt said:


> Movealong: Nobody under 40? How old are you?


I am 48. My oldest son is 23, younger son is 21, and daughter is 11. I also have my kids by marriage that I helped raise and consider to be "mine": oldest daughter is 24, younger son is 20, and younger daughter is 16.


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## COGypsy

nice777guy said:


> Single men tend to die 5-10 years earlier than their married counterparts. Almost seems counterintuitive!
> 
> "Married men have their spouses to check in on them and make sure they are in their best of health, and they are likely encouraged or nagged to do something for their own good."


Not sure that really incentivizes women.


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## angelpixie

zillard said:


> I think COGuy was referring to women who say they don't need a man, but really mean that they don't want one. At least not enough to compromise or put worthwhile effort into a relationship.
> 
> The difference between being independent/self sufficient and actually wanting to be alone.


You may be right, Z, but that's not been the way I've interpreted the way COGuy has criticized Enjoli (and me, too, in another TAM thread in the past) about putting off an "I don't need a man" vibe. He's recommended pretending we don't know things that we do in order to appeal to men, to pretend we are weak in areas where we're not, also to appeal to men. That has nothing to do with wanting to be in a relationship vs. wanting to be alone, or being willing to put in the work needed to have a healthy relationship. To me, that's the opposite, in fact, since it involves deceit and falsification of self. That's hardly something on which to build a healthy relationship!

I will survive without a relationship. I will survive without sex. And I will survive much better without a relationship than I would in an unhealthy one. And I will survive much better without sex, than if I was in a sexual relationship where I felt used, unloved, or uncared for. I won't survive without oxygen, water, and nutrients, no matter what. To echo what BNW said earlier. 

Of course, there is surviving, and there is thriving. I know what I need to thrive, as well. And that is someone who is strong enough in himself to love me for me, without requiring me to manipulate myself into knots in order to 'earn' his love. Been there, done that. I also need someone who wants to be with me as much as I want to be with him, and who is equally invested in the health of the relationship as we each are in our own self-improvement. Notice, again, this is not asking either person to be in control or give up control. It's asking for a partnership of equals.


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## COguy

COGypsy said:


> Now I'm really going to muck things up by posting on a thread with COGuy! We'll all try to keep the COGs straight!


Sometimes I'll read a thread and see someone quote me and go, "Wow I don't remember saying that, it doesn't sound like me at all." And then I go back through the thread and realize it wasn't me they were quoting. Thanks a lot!


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## COGypsy

COguy said:


> Sometimes I'll read a thread and see someone quote me and go, "Wow I don't remember saying that, it doesn't sound like me at all." And then I go back through the thread and realize it wasn't me they were quoting. Thanks a lot!


Right back atcha, Sunshine! My eyes go faster than my brain and I swear to myself I hadn't posted on a thread....and then I see it was you


----------



## COguy

angelpixie said:


> You may be right, Z, but that's not been the way I've interpreted the way COGuy has criticized Enjoli (and me, too, in another TAM thread in the past) about putting off an "I don't need a man" vibe. He's recommended pretending we don't know things that we do in order to appeal to men, to pretend we are weak in areas where we're not, also to appeal to men. That has nothing to do with wanting to be in a relationship vs. wanting to be alone, or being willing to put in the work needed to have a healthy relationship. To me, that's the opposite, in fact, since it involves deceit and falsification of self. That's hardly something on which to build a healthy relationship!
> 
> I will survive without a relationship. I will survive without sex. And I will survive much better without a relationship than I would in an unhealthy one. And I will survive much better without sex, than if I was in a sexual relationship where I felt used, unloved, or uncared for. I won't survive without oxygen, water, and nutrients, no matter what. To echo what BNW said earlier.
> 
> Of course, there is surviving, and there is thriving. I know what I need to thrive, as well. And that is someone who is strong enough in himself to love me for me, without requiring me to manipulate myself into knots in order to 'earn' his love. Been there, done that. I also need someone who wants to be with me as much as I want to be with him, and who is equally invested in the health of the relationship as we each are in our own self-improvement. Notice, again, this is not asking either person to be in control or give up control. It's asking for a partnership of equals.


Like I said earlier, there is a major difference between not being dependent on someone else and the attitude of "I don't need a man!" I actually don't want someone who is dependent on me, I'm looking for a woman who has her own life and doesn't need a man supporting her.

But when you take it to the extreme it comes off as off-putting. I think most men aren't going to be attracted to someone who is unwilling to let a guy take the reins in a relationship. If you're going to have conflict if a man takes a leadership role, then you're either going to turn off a lot of guys, or end up with one who doesn't mine taking a back seat.

I'm not saying that's you, because I don't know you. I certainly am not pegging EW like that, I don't think that's her personality at all. I'm stating my experience from recent dating. If you ever hear yourself utter the phrase, "I don't need a man" on the first few dates, do some introspection. For me, it's on par with talking about your ex on the first few dates.

And yes, I did and still do advocate showing some vulnerability TO MEET GUYS. Not as a long-term tactic to maintain a relationship. It's much easier to approach a girl if you can step in and help her out. I think the thread you were referring to someone was asking for specific advice on how to be more approachable to get dates. I mean if that feels dishonest don't do it, I'm just giving my personal guy take on it.

Like I said, we all have baggage. The whole point in my original post was to point out that at this point in my life there are very few prospects left who are single and don't have baggage. I've come to terms with that. It's not that big of a deal as long as you're with someone who's willing to work on their own issues.


----------



## zillard

That man in the back seat will get boring pretty fast.


----------



## Trickster

nice777guy said:


> Single men tend to die 5-10 years earlier than their married counterparts. Almost seems counterintuitive!
> 
> "Married men have their spouses to check in on them and make sure they are in their best of health, and they are likely encouraged or nagged to do something for their own good."


Married men in a " happy loving" marriage live longer... I am assuming that is what you mean...

An unhappy marriage will cause an early death....or a slow painful agonizing miserable death with thousands of paper cuts and thrown in a bath of lemon juice.


----------



## bravenewworld

COguy said:


> I think most men aren't going to be attracted to someone who is unwilling to let a guy take the reins in a relationship. If you're going to have conflict if a man takes a leadership role, then you're either going to turn off a lot of guys, or end up with one who doesn't mine taking a back seat.
> 
> Like I said, we all have baggage. The whole point in my original post was to point out that at this point in my life there are very few prospects left who are single and don't have baggage. I've come to terms with that. It's not that big of a deal as long as you're with someone who's willing to work on their own issues.


Ok, first paragraph for me personally would not work. I want to be co-pilots with my future whoever and we take turns with the reins as appropriate. For example, I have my boater's license so if he doesn't know how to sail or isn't very experienced, I'm acting as captain of the boat. But if I was dating a chef and he asked me to chop something differently I would listen because that's his area of expertise. A He-Man alpha male act about everything in life would be a huge turn off. I think the type of woman who responds to that is very passive. Not all women are very passive or want to be. Plus I like being in control of my own finances so any man with me will have to be cool with that. 

The next paragraph I agree with. As long as your baggage is compatible and you are both actively working on it, there's no such thing as "damaged goods."


----------



## zillard

bravenewworld said:


> Ok, first paragraph for me personally would not work. I want to be co-pilots with my future whoever and we take turns with the reins as appropriate. For example, I have my boater's license so if he doesn't know how to sail or isn't very experienced, I'm acting as captain of the boat. But if I was dating a chef and he asked me to chop something differently I would listen because that's his area of expertise. A He-Man alpha male act about everything in life would be a huge turn off. I think the type of woman who responds to that is very passive. Not all women are very passive or want to be. Plus I like being in control of my own finances so any man with me will have to be cool with that.
> 
> The next paragraph I agree with. As long as your baggage is compatible and you are both actively working on it, there's no such thing as "damaged goods."


:smthumbup:

If a man respects his mate, he will listen, accept input, and even defer when she has more expertise or provides a better solution. 

If a woman respects her mate, she will be ok deferring and appreciate his decisiveness. Trust and respect.


----------



## Arendt

See the whole 'men need to take the reigns' thing is what I find so off-putting and wrong. It is based on a whole set of assumptions and ideas about a "man" is and what a "woman"is that are 1) essentializing, that is, based on a static notion of what a male or female is; 2) based on stereotypical gender roles that ought, after women's liberation, be less and less acceptable to spout off in our society, but unfortunately is a growing idea like that of racism; 3) based on an idea that men dominate women and want to do so and need to so for some reason. No. In marriage and relationships there should be cooperation not reigns and chains. 

The whole No More Mr Nice Guy vibe from some men here, based on patriarchal notions of gender just rubs me the wrong way. My marriage did not fail because I did not have the "reigns" it failed first and foremost because I was an a$$hole and took my wife for granted, and she did to at least some degree what she should have done, left me.


----------



## zillard

Arendt said:


> See the whole 'men need to take the reigns' thing is what I find so off-putting and wrong. It is based on a whole set of assumptions and ideas about a "man" is and what a "woman"is that are 1) essentializing, that is, based on a static notion of what a male or female is; 2) based on stereotypical gender roles that ought, after women's liberation, be less and less acceptable to spout off in our society, but unfortunately is a growing idea like that of racism; 3) based on an idea that men dominate women and want to do so and need to so for some reason. No. In marriage and relationships there should be cooperation not reigns and chains.
> 
> The whole No More Mr Nice Guy vibe from some men here, based on patriarchal notions of gender just rubs me the wrong way. My marriage did not fail because I did not have the "reigns" it failed first and foremost because I was an a$$hole and took my wife for granted, and she did to at least some degree what she should have done, left me.


I think it's very easy to interpret Robert Glover and Athol Kay's books as mysogynistic. I think those that do, male and female, miss the point. Neither advocates being disrespectful nor controlling, IMO.


----------



## angelpixie

Trickster said:


> Married men in a " happy loving" marriage live longer... I am assuming that is what you mean...
> 
> An unhappy marriage will cause an early death....or a slow painful agonizing miserable death with thousands of paper cuts and thrown in a bath of lemon juice.


Well, while the demographics might legitimately show that married men live longer than single ones, and that the difference might not be the same for married vs. single women (I honestly don't know the stats), I would agree with Trickster that an unhappy marriage is a slow, agonizing death for either a man or a woman. I don't think it's necessarily a surprise that coincidental to the end of my marriage, my health has gotten better (with a few oddball exceptions, lol), and even my doctor told me this year that I look younger and healthier than she's ever seen me. 



bravenewworld said:


> Ok, first paragraph for me personally would not work. I want to be co-pilots with my future whoever and we take turns with the reins as appropriate. For example, I have my boater's license so if he doesn't know how to sail or isn't very experienced, I'm acting as captain of the boat. But if I was dating a chef and he asked me to chop something differently I would listen because that's his area of expertise. A He-Man alpha male act about everything in life would be a huge turn off. I think the type of woman who responds to that is very passive. Not all women are very passive or want to be. Plus I like being in control of my own finances so any man with me will have to be cool with that.
> 
> The next paragraph I agree with. As long as your baggage is compatible and you are both actively working on it, there's no such thing as "damaged goods."





zillard said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> If a man respects his mate, he will listen, accept input, and even defer when she has more expertise or provides a better solution.
> 
> If a woman respects her mate, she will be ok deferring and appreciate his decisiveness. Trust and respect.


Both of these are excellent!! None of us are so perfect and knowledgeable at everything that we should have to 'fake' a vulnerability to attract a mate. If I don't know something as well as a guy does, I have no problem asking him about it. I find someone's knowledge and passion about topics of interest to be a turn-on at times, so there's that, too, lol. I want honesty and I want to be able to honestly be me. 

And because I don't believe in the whole 'You complete me' b.s., but rather that a healthy relationship consists of two 'wholes' creating something new together, the guy taking the reins doesn't work, either. I'm not riding in some covered wagon heading West, for crying out loud. I prefer to think of it like a tango, where neither partner leads all the time, but when they work together, it creates something beautiful, powerful, and very sexy.



Arendt said:


> See the whole 'men need to take the reigns' thing is what I find so off-putting and wrong. It is based on a whole set of assumptions and ideas about a "man" is and what a "woman"is that are 1) essentializing, that is, based on a static notion of what a male or female is; 2) based on stereotypical gender roles that ought, after women's liberation, be less and less acceptable to spout off in our society, but unfortunately is a growing idea like that of racism; 3) based on an idea that men dominate women and want to do so and need to so for some reason. No. In marriage and relationships there should be cooperation not reigns and chains.
> 
> The whole No More Mr Nice Guy vibe from some men here, based on patriarchal notions of gender just rubs me the wrong way. My marriage did not fail because I did not have the "reigns" it failed first and foremost because I was an a$$hole and took my wife for granted, and she did to at least some degree what she should have done, left me.


So much to love here, too, Arendt. Some find stereotypes to be comforting because they are familiar. It's easy to blame bad things on 'change.' I see that a lot on TAM, too. Blaming feminism for things that had nothing to do with feminism. Women can be b!tches whether they're feminists or not. And men can be a$$holes whether women are feminists or not.  And so many times, NMMNG seems to me like a code phrase for 'Be an a$$hole.' Strong is great. Being a jerk and a bully in the name of taking the reins of a marriage or relationship is not.


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> Strong is great. Being a jerk and a bully in the name of taking the reins of a marriage or relationship is not.


I really think the author would agree with you there.


----------



## angelpixie

zillard said:


> I really think the author would agree with you there.


Good. Maybe it's just some of his devotees on TAM that give him a bad name. (not referring to you, of course)


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> Good. Maybe it's just some of his devotees on TAM that give him a bad name. (not referring to you, of course)


I absolutely agree. Being a decisive man of action; cool, firm, dispassionate, is very different from being a d!ckhead.


----------



## COguy

angelpixie said:


> I prefer to think of it like a tango, where neither partner leads all the time, but when they work together, it creates something beautiful, powerful, and very sexy.


I know you dance, it really is the perfect example of how I think a relationship works best. Dancing requires one partner to take the lead. That doesn't mean that the guy can run roughshod over the woman. The best leading is done gently, and a good leader will take direction from his partner at any time. Trying to dance when one person won't allow the other to lead is the worst experience you can have. No one looks at professional ballroom dancers and says, "Look at that guy dominating that woman!" Now if the guy was grabbing the woman and pushing and pulling her all over the dance floor it would be easy to dispel the entire notion of having a leader.


----------



## zillard

COguy said:


> I Now if the guy was grabbing the woman and pushing and pulling her all over the dance floor it would be easy to dispel the entire notion of having a leader.


They would win ZERO dance contests. And both go home miserable. 

Leading does not equal dominating. 

In our language there is a clear differentiation between a leader and a tyrant. They are NOT the same.


----------



## angelpixie

Ahhh --- which is specifically why I chose the tango for my example.  I have tried a brief tango lesson, and have friends who have taken more intensive lessons, and the thing we specifically noted is how it is NOT the man 'driving' the woman around the dancefloor, and leading her the entire time. The man responds to the woman's direction at times, as well. There is a give and take that is not the same as in 'traditional' couples dancing. And again, that's why I think it's more fluid, passionate, and sensual than most traditional ballroom dances as well.


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> Ahhh --- which is specifically why I chose the tango for my example.  I have tried a brief tango lesson, and have friends who have taken more intensive lessons, and the thing we specifically noted is how it is NOT the man 'driving' the woman around the dancefloor, and leading her the entire time. The man responds to the woman's direction at times, as well. There is a give and take that is not the same as in 'traditional' couples dancing. And again, that's why I think it's more fluid, passionate, and sensual than most traditional ballroom dances as well.


Sounds perfect to me. Constantly leading is a chore. Please, may I be with a woman who can take over in areas where I am lacking. (And recognize which is which)

If we can compliment each other.... gravy, baby.

Nobody likes a tyrant. And nobody respects a serf.

"I don't need a man", while dating a man = smells like tyrant. 

You gonna tango alone? Fvck off.


----------



## angelpixie

zillard said:


> Sounds perfect to me. Constantly leading is a chore. Please, may I be with a woman who can take over in areas where I am lacking. (And recognize which is which)
> 
> If we can compliment each other.... gravy, baby.
> 
> Nobody likes a tyrant. And nobody respects a serf.
> 
> "I don't need a man", while dating a man = smells like tyrant.
> 
> You gonna tango alone? Fvck off.


Oh, Z, you edited your post after I liked it -- no fair, lol. So now I need to clarify the whole '"I don't need a man" while dating a man = smells like tyrant'
comment. Why is this true for you? Is one of us here who says, "Look, I don't NEEDY-need a man, but I WANT to be in a relationship with a man, so I'm choosing to do something about it by dating men" saying something that really strikes fear into all your male hearts? An adult woman who has her own job, takes care of her own finances (I.e., doesn't want you just as a sugar daddy), takes care of her own kids ( I.e., doesn't want you to act like her baby daddy, either), who has her own friends and interests (so she's not 'clingy,' heaven forbid).... that all sends you guys running into the hills in fear? She wants a relationship with an adult, who is most likely dealing with similar things that she is, as a (most likely) working divorced parent. someone to share an emotional, and eventually physical relationship. How does this equate to TYRANT?!?!? I don't get it!!


----------



## Trickster

angelpixie said:


> Ahhh --- which is specifically why I chose the tango for my example.  I have tried a brief tango lesson, and have friends who have taken more intensive lessons, and the thing we specifically noted is how it is NOT the man 'driving' the woman around the dancefloor, and leading her the entire time. The man responds to the woman's direction at times, as well. There is a give and take that is not the same as in 'traditional' couples dancing. And again, that's why I think it's more fluid, passionate, and sensual than most traditional ballroom dances as well.


You are getting me interested in taking Tango lessons, as well as ballroom dancing.


----------



## Trickster

angelpixie said:


> Oh, Z, you edited your post after I liked it -- no fair, lol. So now I need to clarify the whole '"I don't need a man" while dating a man = smells like tyrant'
> comment. Why is this true for you? Is one of us here who says, "Look, I don't NEEDY-need a man, but I WANT to be in a relationship with a man, so I'm choosing to do something about it by dating men" saying something that really strikes fear into all your male hearts? An adult woman who has her own job, takes care of her own finances (I.e., doesn't want you just as a sugar daddy), takes care of her own kids ( I.e., doesn't want you to act like her baby daddy, either), who has her own friends and interests (so she's not 'clingy,' heaven forbid).... that all sends you guys running into the hills in fear? She wants a relationship with an adult, who is most likely dealing with similar things that she is, as a (most likely) working divorced parent. someone to share an emotional, and eventually physical relationship. How does this equate to TYRANT?!?!? I don't get it!!



You explained " I don't need a man" differently than what I hear when a woman says the same thing.

There was a woman in the hiking group who said the exact same thing, almost word for word... She just added that a man/bf would be the icing on the cake. It sounded like it came from some book. Like a script...

Back then, I interpeded that attitude as she is perfect and wants a perfect man..I am not that person. Too much to work on and I have too many flaws.


I would think if I screwed up in any way, she would be outta there. 

With the hiking group of mostly single people, I have learned a lot, just like I have learned a lot on TAM. It's different to hear people talk when face to face. I like the "I don't need a man" attitude now...6 months ago, when I heard that comment like you wrote above, I wanted to hike in the other direction.

Now, with all the new people I am meeting, I believe that is the type of woman I would be looking for when I do D...That's the attitude that I want for myself...


----------



## COguy

angelpixie said:


> Ahhh --- which is specifically why I chose the tango for my example.  I have tried a brief tango lesson, and have friends who have taken more intensive lessons, and the thing we specifically noted is how it is NOT the man 'driving' the woman around the dancefloor, and leading her the entire time. The man responds to the woman's direction at times, as well. There is a give and take that is not the same as in 'traditional' couples dancing. And again, that's why I think it's more fluid, passionate, and sensual than most traditional ballroom dances as well.


Not to go off on a dance tangent but tango is not that dissimilar from the other dances in that respect. Even in strict competitive International Ballroom the man must always be ready to accept input from the partner at a moment's notice because she can see things he can not. That was one of the first lessons I learned when I started taking International lessons with my partner. If she starts to take the lead I have two immediate options, ignore her (and then likely run into something/someone), or follow her (and be saved from doing something stupid).

In Tango, the man leads the same. There is more freedom for the woman to do things that the man is not directly leading, but the decision to follow the woman is the mans at all time. So even when he is choosing to follow a direction, it's still his decision. If it wasn't, you would have chaos. Like a ship without a captain. But again, the best leaders are the most subtle.

I took a lesson in tango where I was the follow the entire time. I wasn't (still am not) that good at tango at the time, it was one of my first handful of experiences with the dance. This guy had me all over the floor doing ochos and steps I'd never even seen before. I was doing it and didn't even know why. He wasn't saying anything and I never felt like I was being pushed or pulled, my body just started moving. It was an amazing experience and when he was done I sat mouth open and asked, "How the heck did you do that?" And he spent the next hour teaching me how to lead gently so that the lady wouldn't even feel like she was being lead. I sucked at it, of course, but I have seen it several times even with people who have never danced before.


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## COguy

angelpixie said:


> Oh, Z, you edited your post after I liked it -- no fair, lol. So now I need to clarify the whole '"I don't need a man" while dating a man = smells like tyrant'
> comment. Why is this true for you? Is one of us here who says, "Look, I don't NEEDY-need a man, but I WANT to be in a relationship with a man, so I'm choosing to do something about it by dating men" saying something that really strikes fear into all your male hearts? An adult woman who has her own job, takes care of her own finances (I.e., doesn't want you just as a sugar daddy), takes care of her own kids ( I.e., doesn't want you to act like her baby daddy, either), who has her own friends and interests (so she's not 'clingy,' heaven forbid).... that all sends you guys running into the hills in fear? She wants a relationship with an adult, who is most likely dealing with similar things that she is, as a (most likely) working divorced parent. someone to share an emotional, and eventually physical relationship. How does this equate to TYRANT?!?!? I don't get it!!


I think it's more like when someone says, "I don't want any drama."

It's a given that people don't want drama, just like it's a given that you don't need a man in your life. It's implied by just a regular thought process. But the second you verbalize it, it makes you step back and think, "why would someone SAY that out loud?"

If I hear a girl say that line, I start prepping for the alpha-female bossy type. And that could be totally unjustified, but from my personal experience it's not. Just like the girls that said, "I don't like drama." Because I never met one of those that didn't act like a reality TV star.


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## angelpixie

COguy said:


> If I hear a girl say that line, I start prepping for the alpha-female bossy type. And that could be totally unjustified, but from my personal experience it's not. Just like the girls that said, "I don't like drama." Because I never met one of those that didn't act like a reality TV star.


And here, I think, lies the crux of the entire problem. Men assuming what a woman means when she says "I don't need a man." Yes, there actually ARE women out there who 'need' a man in their lives. They can't imagine being on their own, or only having other females in their social circle. They NEED to be in a relationship with a man, any man, to feel like there's not something wrong with them as women. 

When many of us say "I don't need a man," we're not trying to say that we're a bunch of ball-busters, we're trying to say we're NOT like the person I described above. We don't need a man in order to know we are whole. Which, again, should just make guys happy, and not have them give us crap. And your personal experience, COGuy, has not apparently covered the entire variety of women out there.


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## EnjoliWoman

Yup, AP - I'm exactly as you described. I don't NEED a man in that, I don't need one to handle stuff for me or to make me feel "complete". However, I do have a strong desire to have a life partner who can take over the reins for me sometimes. Being single is exhausting. 

In fact, reading some of the online dating thread and those who aren't sure they want another relationship made me wonder HOW we even meet someone.

Say I date someone. Well, a relationship should compliment one's life not overshadow it. We're supposed to have time to have our own interests, we're supposed to make time for our friends. We're supposed to make time for ourselves and we want to keep our children our major focus without introducing anyone too soon.

WTF? When the hell can I date? Most men aren't that patient! 

Work all day, an hour at the gym 5x a week. Leave there at 6:30, home, quick shower, fix dinner and spend some time with kiddo while I do chores around the house. I barely have time for a decent telephone conversation. Every other Friday and every other weekend I'm kid-free. So I could make time for a Friday night date every week. Saturday/Sunday means one gym visit, mow the lawn or do other yard work, clean the house, laundry, run errands/grocery shop, meet up with a friend for lunch or dinner, some sort of home maintenance or improvement thing usually... 

With all of that, how can I develop a relationship on one day a week to the level I feel good about introducing him to the household so I can see him more often? And even then it can't include overnight with my teen there. It won't unless we agree to live together and that will take a couple years AT LEAST for me. I still don't have a hobby in there unless you count the DIY stuff but that usually isn't fun, it's usually a necessity. Might be able to squeeze in some lazy Sunday morning reading on the back porch.

Most men won't tolerate that pace. They want sex more often than once a week (me, too - just not feasible) and they certainly want to be around more faster than I would allow it with a kiddo. 

I could see the work load being more manageable with a live-in partner (he mows while I clean the house, he does some repair work while I do laundry, he helps cook/clean up or I cook while he does something else helpful - then there would be enough time after dinner and on the weekends for some quality couple time. It's GETTING THERE that seems so difficult.


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## Trickster

To paraphrase what this woman in the hiking group talked about proved she didn't "need" a man...Over a 30 or so minute conversation she seemed amazingly busy.

Her schedule...

Mondays evenings are Veg out Movie Monday night.
Tuesday evenings are for her long run
Wednesday evenings were WWWW night (Wednesday Wine With Women )
Thursday evenings are her sculling and dinner with the group.
Fridays ? Date night
Saturday Morning she did another run 5 miles, then the 10-12 hike afterwards with the group along with the after hike dinner. (Don't know how she could do both in one day)
Sunday morning, sculling again with the after sculling brunch with the group
Sunday evening reserved for Dinner with her parents and siblings. They had their weekly family get together... She said her family is very close. 5 siblings.

Somewhere in all that she volunteers for some heart association...

So I asked her when she finds the time to date? Fridays and Saturday. Then I was thinking...most Saturday nights, she has dinner with the group. Being that she is up at 5am Saturdays for her run, I can't imagine she has a date night fridays.

Yes, I can agree that she doesn't "need" a man. Too busy and too full... I can see why she is single...

She has a great successful career, family, and close friends. She is Divorced now. Waited until her kids were all grown and out of the house. Oh... No drama with the ex...they get along great and they just "grew apart".


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## Trickster

EnjoliWoman said:


> Yup, AP - I'm exactly as you described. I don't NEED a man in that, I don't need one to handle stuff for me or to make me feel "complete". However, I do have a strong desire to have a life partner who can take over the reins for me sometimes. Being single is exhausting.
> 
> In fact, reading some of the online dating thread and those who aren't sure they want another relationship made me wonder HOW we even meet someone.
> 
> Say I date someone. Well, a relationship should compliment one's life not overshadow it. We're supposed to have time to have our own interests, we're supposed to make time for our friends. We're supposed to make time for ourselves and we want to keep our children our major focus without introducing anyone too soon.
> 
> WTF? When the hell can I date? Most men aren't that patient!
> 
> Work all day, an hour at the gym 5x a week. Leave there at 6:30, home, quick shower, fix dinner and spend some time with kiddo while I do chores around the house. I barely have time for a decent telephone conversation. Every other Friday and every other weekend I'm kid-free. So I could make time for a Friday night date every week. Saturday/Sunday means one gym visit, mow the lawn or do other yard work, clean the house, laundry, run errands/grocery shop, meet up with a friend for lunch or dinner, some sort of home maintenance or improvement thing usually...
> 
> With all of that, how can I develop a relationship on one day a week to the level I feel good about introducing him to the household so I can see him more often? And even then it can't include overnight with my teen there. It won't unless we agree to live together and that will take a couple years AT LEAST for me. I still don't have a hobby in there unless you count the DIY stuff but that usually isn't fun, it's usually a necessity. Might be able to squeeze in some lazy Sunday morning reading on the back porch.
> 
> Most men won't tolerate that pace. They want sex more often than once a week (me, too - just not feasible) and they certainly want to be around more faster than I would allow it with a kiddo.
> 
> I could see the work load being more manageable with a live-in partner (he mows while I clean the house, he does some repair work while I do laundry, he helps cook/clean up or I cook while he does something else helpful - then there would be enough time after dinner and on the weekends for some quality couple time. It's GETTING THERE that seems so difficult.


This is why people stay married when the marriage goes bad. As long as the home responsibilities are being equally done. It seems easier than D and risk being too busy for a social life. At least until the kids are much older...

It takes time to get to know somebody...Maybe that's why I like my hiking group so much. I get to know people on a personal level... Many people come and go, but the core group is very large... Almost like a lot of mini dates...I realize men and women struggle with the same things....Its all about finding the right chemistry. Not always an easy thing to do...its great to see the women get just as stinky and sweaty as the men...


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## EnjoliWoman

COguy said:


> I know you dance, it really is the perfect example of how I think a relationship works best. Dancing requires one partner to take the lead. That doesn't mean that the guy can run roughshod over the woman. The best leading is done gently, and a good leader will take direction from his partner at any time. Trying to dance when one person won't allow the other to lead is the worst experience you can have. No one looks at professional ballroom dancers and says, "Look at that guy dominating that woman!" Now if the guy was grabbing the woman and pushing and pulling her all over the dance floor it would be easy to dispel the entire notion of having a leader.


Er, you DO remember Contra? THAT is pushing/pulling her all over the dance floor!  :rofl:


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## COguy

EnjoliWoman said:


> Er, you DO remember Contra? THAT is pushing/pulling her all over the dance floor!  :rofl:


Didn't you say something like, "I'm not good at letting men lead?" You have to keep going back until it gets beaten out of you.

I met this mid-40s divorcee who went to our studio for months. Every time she said "I'm not good at letting men lead." Worst dance partner ever......She just wanted to do the steps that she wanted to do. I asked her one night, "Do you want to do steps while we hold eachother or do you want to dance?" She was hard-headed


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## zillard

COguy said:


> I think it's more like when someone says, "I don't want any drama."
> 
> It's a given that people don't want drama, just like it's a given that you don't need a man in your life. It's implied by just a regular thought process. But the second you verbalize it, it makes you step back and think, "why would someone SAY that out loud?"
> 
> If I hear a girl say that line, I start prepping for the alpha-female bossy type. And that could be totally unjustified, but from my personal experience it's not. Just like the girls that said, "I don't like drama." Because I never met one of those that didn't act like a reality TV star.


Yeah. It's not what is said, it's why they feel the need to say THAT, at THAT specific time. 

If on a date, I said to the woman, "I don't NEED a woman", I would expect that to be a turn off. 

Context and timing. If you feel the need to say that to a fresh encounter, I think something is amiss.


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## angelpixie

So, just to clarify, COGuy --- you're not necessarily taking the words "I don't need a man" literally if a woman was to say them -- you would look at the context in which they were said, right (and maybe even ask what she meant by them, rather than risk making an incorrect assumption)? And if that phrase was never uttered at all, but the woman was just someone who was smart, capable, confident, and busy, you wouldn't take that as an "I don't need a man" _vibe_ --- you'd look at her as a whole person and see if what you knew about her at that point was intriguing enough to try to get to know her better, or not?


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## Rowan

I don't "do" drama. But the only people I've ever said that to out loud and in person were people who were providing more of it than I was willing to tackle. 

I'm another who doesn't "need" a man. But I'd like one.  And again, I'm pretty sure I've never actually said those words to any man outside of a conversation similar to what we have going on in this thread. Mostly because I don't think it would be polite.


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## COguy

angelpixie said:


> So, just to clarify, COGuy --- you're not necessarily taking the words "I don't need a man" literally if a woman was to say them -- you would look at the context in which they were said, right (and maybe even ask what she meant by them, rather than risk making an incorrect assumption)? And if that phrase was never uttered at all, but the woman was just someone who was smart, capable, confident, and busy, you wouldn't take that as an "I don't need a man" _vibe_ --- you'd look at her as a whole person and see if what you knew about her at that point was intriguing enough to try to get to know her better, or not?


This sounds like a trap... But yes


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## SamuraiJack

People need food.
People need Oxygen.
People need water.

Never seen a woman die because she didnt have a man.


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## COGypsy

zillard said:


> Yeah. It's not what is said, it's why they feel the need to say THAT, at THAT specific time.
> 
> If on a date, I said to the woman, "I don't NEED a woman", I would expect that to be a turn off.
> 
> Context and timing. If you feel the need to say that to a fresh encounter, I think something is amiss.


I wouldn't consider not needing a woman a turn off at all. When I hear that a man "needs" a woman, I get the strong sense that he can't manage his kids/house/life and wants a mommy-maid to do his dirty work. My great-grandfather NEEDED a wife when my great grandmother died. He had 11 children under 15 and a big farm. I am absolutely thrilled to not be "needed", frankly.

What I'm getting from this is that fundamentally, the word "need" shouldn't be part of a relationship.


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## angelpixie

COguy said:


> This sounds like a trap... But yes



Nope, not a trap. Thank you. 

And just to inject a little levity to the discussion, I had bookmarked this a long time ago because of some previous TAM-scussion. It cracked me up:


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## whitehawk

Trickster said:


> This is why people stay married when the marriage goes bad. As long as the home responsibilities are being equally done. It seems easier than D and risk being too busy for a social life. At least until the kids are much older...
> 
> It takes time to get to know somebody...Maybe that's why I like my hiking group so much. I get to know people on a personal level... Many people come and go, but the core group is very large... Almost like a lot of mini dates...I realize men and women struggle with the same things....Its all about finding the right chemistry. Not always an easy thing to do...its great to see the women get just as stinky and sweaty as the men...



l'm finding me a hiking group . l like the idea id doing stuff like that with a bunch of people , sounds great.


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## whitehawk

zillard said:


> Yeah. It's not what is said, it's why they feel the need to say THAT, at THAT specific time.
> 
> If on a date, I said to the woman, "I don't NEED a woman", I would expect that to be a turn off.
> 
> Context and timing. If you feel the need to say that to a fresh encounter, I think something is amiss.



Definitely. that stuff at times like that is often all about proving points and a chip on the shoulder bla bla l find. lt's very common .


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