# I need help/advice- feeling lost.



## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I have been reading through threads today and decided to join the forum. I do not have much of a support system and of those around me, no one can relate or empathize with my situation.

To sum it up, I have been living with J for 6 1/2 years. We talked about marriage and eventually got engaged. After some fears and issues, I decided I didn't want to get married. We are both divorced and I was so scared of going through that hell again. Needless to say, for the last year we haven't been very kind to each other. He emotionally and sexually withdrew from me due to untreated depression and a hormonal imbalance. Due to his withdrawal, I became resentful, angry, and depressed. We stopped sleeping in the same bed and became roommates. After some pleading, he finally started seeing a therapist. He is currently taking medication for depression, anxiety, and low testosterone. I hope after some healing time, we could begin to work on our relationship again so I suggested couples therapy.

Two months ago, over dinner he admitted to no longer being in love with me. I knew this. He knew I felt the same. But relationships are not full of constant infatuation, roses, and Hallmark cards. I wanted to work on us, individually and together. That following weekend, he became angry and asked me to leave so he could have a couple of days to process his feelings. For a month, he barely spoke to me and withdrew even more. Finally, after a therapy session, he told me he wanted to be physically alone. He's never lived alone or taken care of himself before. And he felt he would be able to solely focus on healing. So I told him if he wanted out of our life together, he could find an apartment. I didn't feel like I needed to be uprooted with all the emotional turmoil I was facing and soon to be facing.

Two weeks ago, he moved out. I helped him pack. I helped him load the truck. I handled it better than I expected. Of course, I have been taking medication for panic attacks, depression and seeing a therapist for two months. Some days I struggle because I have huge abandonment issues. So this separation triggers deep pain within me causing panic attacks. Other days, I do ok. We've spent some time together since he left. I helped him shop for a couple of items for the apartment. I've spent a little time there, which I thought I'd never do. And for the most part, I am supportive and encouraging. But it's mostly one-sided I fear. Not to say he hasn't been there for me because he has during meltdowns. There are times he admits he can only selfishly deal with his own pain and anger. He tends to withdraw and place a lot of blame on me for past hurts. He now sees that and admits his part. He apologizes and empathizes for punishing me. While I appreciate that, he says he doesn't know how to not behave this way when the emotions are raw.
How do I support him in his healing without doing damage to myself? Damage to us? Do I give him space or continue to be there for him even though it may hurt me? I'm at a total loss how to behave during this separation. We are feeling our way through the dark. Help?


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## Flutterby (Aug 6, 2009)

It is good that you are trying to be supportive. Given the entire story, I would recommend giving him his space. You should focus on your own healing.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

wren said:


> How do I support him in his healing without doing damage to myself? Damage to us? Do I give him space or continue to be there for him even though it may hurt me? I'm at a total loss how to behave during this separation. We are feeling our way through the dark. Help?


i think there is a lot of things going on for you both emotionally. one thing that will help is working on your boundaries. for you, and for him, its more of a superficial treatment, but i still think it will help. you can google boundaries on the internet and read or get some books about boundaries. it takes a long time to learn how to use your boundaries wisely, but it comes with practice. 

of course there is the deeper emotional pain you are both going through. that is the hard part. you mentioned your abandonment issues and your panic attacks. my sister suffers from that, too. she has her good days and some bad days. a lot of people want to riddle off advice and tell her 'how it is' but that never helps. sometimes i think that is just the way she is and she needs to accept that she's going to freak out every once in awhile. its not pleasant but that's just the way it is sometimes. 

i used to have some freak out episodes when my h did things i didnt like. i read some books that helped in the long run- Seat of the Soul and also some alanon literature. and one thing that helped me was when i got really angry once and was about to freak out, i went to counseling instead. that was a changing point for me. so you might consider asking your counselor if there are any emergency services you can call if you feel you're about to lose it.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thank you flutterby and blanca. It really helps just to not I'm not so alone in these emotions and fears. I'm going to speak to my therapist today about the boundary issue. I asked J if he wanted me temporarily out of his life to help with his healing and he said no. He thinks we have a chance at rebuilding our relationship after some time apart, focused on our individual needs. Finding the balance without being triggered or damaged more is my constant struggle.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Does anyone have any resource recommendations on how to maintain a healthy relationship during a separation?
I'm at a loss as to know when I'm doing something right or wrong. I really do not want to make things worse for either of us.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm having a morning of doubts. We spent all of Friday and Saturday together. Our first therapy session was Friday and it was a great experience. I cried the entire time which surprised me. Our therapist said I was clearly in the grieving process which I have been since June. She gave us homework and we left feeling like we'd made the right choice. I felt hopeful.
Friday night he had too much to drink and spent the night. The next morning I asked him if I could crawl into bed with him to cuddle and he said no. I knew better than to ask but felt so rejected anyways. He always feels horribly when he hurts me. He said he just doesn't feel comfortable. That lead to another conversation about how he doesn't feel the connection anymore. He cares for me. He likes me. He's attracted to me. But he doesn't know if there is love.
Can love really disappear? Can it really be covered by anger and loss?
I don't want to be strung along, which he swears isn't the case. He thinks with therapy there is a chance for the love to be recovered. He said he wouldn't go to therapy if he didn't want this to work.
Mark Twain said- Don't make someone a priority that sees you as an option. Is that what I'm doing? Or am I just impatient and incredibly lonely?
Please help, I am losing my mind.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

This is my opinioin give what I've read.

I would give him space and continue MC. 

He needs to feel his pain while you are not "on call." He may be using you as comfort. When he continues to do so, your relationship will never heal. He isn't ready to mend your relationship..he just wants to "touch base" when he wants. 

This is bad for you. You end up feeling rejected and walking on eggshells.

I would not initiate contact with him. If he contacts you..be friendly but don't initiate relationship talk or invite him over etc.
In fact, if he wants to come over or do something...you need not to be available all the time. Take away his comfort. Afterall, this is what he wants? Give it to him.

Only them will he eventually realize what he REALLY wants, when he get the space that he needs.

In the meantime, make yourself a better person. He may find that attractive. Needy people aren't attractive. Fun, happy, confident people are attractive.

There are no guarantees but at least you aren't focusing ONLY on him!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I hear you, Corpuswife. Thank you for your response. For the most part what you described is how I approach daily life. We only see each other on the weekends- we watch movies, have dinner, spend time with our friends...lighthearted "couple" activities. The therapist thinks this is a good idea because we'd lost that part of our relationship. We are learning how to spend time together again. I don't initiate contact unless it's related to the household, family, or a crisis.
When we have relationship talks, we always agree to be emotionally honest. I've addressed the idea of me being a crutch and he assures me that when he spends time with me, he wants to spend time with me. He has no problem with being alone. He thinks spending time with me helps rebuild the connection. He said there has been much improvement because a few months ago, he didn't even feel comfortable being in the same room with me because he was so angry. Now, he finds himself missing me and wanting to see me.
I struggle with appearing happy go lucky when I don't feel that way. I do work on myself. I make sure I look my best when I see him. I let him know that I'm living my life, spending time with my girlfriend, and not moping around the house. When he needs space, I do not pester him. But I just can't not be here if he needs or wants me. I feel like it's game-playing and I'm not being authentic. Does that make sense?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes....it may be game playing. You are having to think about your "moves" like a game. Not that it's bad, it's just being thoughtful.

It sounds like things have improved and that is good. It will take time. If it's working then keep doing it. You may have a few setbacks along the way and that's normal. Just keep on.

I'd recommend Gary Chapman's The Five Love Languages. You both could read it and it's very enlightening.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

I really think you ought to work on acting the way you actually feel, instead of being happy when you are not. i know that's easier said then done because if you get upset, then he feels guilty, then he gets upset, then you get more upset, and things spiral out and down. it seems easier in the moment to just put on a show to avoid all the drama, and a lot of it also has to do with a fear of losing his love. 

something ive been working on myself is feeling what i feel without holding my H emotionally hostage- meaning i try not to treat him as an object of my happiness. And i also try not holding myself emotionally hostage for his reaction to me.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thanks Corpuswife.  We read Chapman's book a while back. I think it's time for a re-read.

Thanks blanca. _Codependent No More_ really opened my eyes to holding another responsible for my moods/emotions/thoughts. If you haven't read it, I recommend it.



We saw each other yesterday. We had an appt. to go over our therapy assignment. We wrote out our expectations of a healthy relationship, the strengths and areas needing improvement in our own relationship. We shared our answers and feedback. We realized there is alot good about the relationship and that the areas that need improvement are issues that have surfaced only in the last year. Our answers were similar for our expectations. And we had a lengthy conversation about how his 1st marriage caused a lot of damage and he tends to transfer that anger and pain onto me. We discussed writing goodbye letters to parts of our past that we need to let go.
At the end of the night, I felt hopeful. If I could only stop letting my fears and insecurities create pessimistic thought patterns. I need to learn patience and realize we didn't get to this point in a few weeks so the healing isn't going to be speedy.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm angry! I have not felt one iota of anger since this began in June. And I'm not sure how to handle it. I know it's a healthy part of the grieving process. I know I must allow myself to feel it but I'm terrified of it. I don't want my anger to push J away or hurt any progress we've made. My anger was one of the issues that hurt our relationship which is why I'm tentative to voice my emotions. Honestly, it's surprised me. It just slowly surfacing last night and I woke up pissed.
Does anyone have any suggestions?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Call a friend and gripe or write it out in a journal. Do something active or it will come out ways you don't want. 

Angry is good sometimes.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Today was our second therapy appt. and it went pretty well. we discussed our assignment (expectations of a healthy relationship, strengths and areas that need improvement of our relationship) and discovered that we are on the same page. She said we have a solid foundation of strengths and it shows real commitment that we do the work and want to come weekly (he actually suggested it first).
So why is it that I feel exhausted and full of sadness today? The therapy is great guidance during this process. I feel a sense of security knowing that we are getting help. And J has been fighting his usual emotional withdrawl MO and opening up more and more. He even admitted to transferring a lot of past anger onto me which creates a barrier between us. This is real progress! I guess it boils down to this: it's a lonely battle at times.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

wren said:


> I guess it boils down to this: it's a lonely battle at times.


how true that is.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

*I'm going to use this thread as a means to update my story.*

Last week, we had a tough therapy session. Before we went in, J glanced over and noticed I had a file of paperwork. I'm a bit fastidious and tend to be very organized. He made some comment about feeling inadequate with his single piece of paper. I asked him if he brought his "i" statements and resentment workbook homework. He said, " I'm not ready to share my resentment stuff. I still have some work to do. Is that bad?" I told him I couldn't answer if that was bad and he is the measurement of his progress. I'm not going to judge.

When we walked into the office and she asked how we were doing, I said we had an incident in the lobby. The entire session was devoted to that small exchange. We discussed J's not good enough complex and constant feelings of inadequacies. He admitted to a lifetime in the making but said I was critical. I admitted to following a pattern that my mother passed along- thinking I was helping when I was actually criticizing. I apologized again and recognized my part in his complex. When asked if he trusted my words, he said, "I want to."

I spoke about how I've felt I have been living according to J's rules for months. My insecurities and abandonment fears seem to grow as time goes on. He signed another month's lease on the apartment and still can't tell me what he sees the future to be. I am constantly reminded that the holidays are approaching and 2010 will be here soon. I am growing strong and continuously working on myself. I am ready to love and be loved. So I don't know how to reconcile respecting J's boundaries, need for healing time without doing damage to our potential reconciliation. I told our therapist that I fear the constant rejection ( he doesn't want me to touch him. he doesn't touch me.) will cause resentment and therefore present a barrier if he decides to invest in an intimate relationship again. She agreed and spoke of the risk. She reminded us both we are choosing to be in this relationship. And that at any time, I have the power to walk away or change my rules, etc. It was eye-opening for me because I have felt so little control since he left.

We went to DC for a short trip. And my intention was to be light-hearted and fun. We had dinner the 1st night at a very romantic inn. I dolled myself up to the extreme and found myself terribly as I struggled to walk along in heels while couples strolled by holding hands. I cried silently and told J that when we returned, I thought it would be best for me if we no longer pursued the relationship. He was shocked. I told him I was tired of feeling wrong for loving him and wanting to be loved in return. I was tired of being blamed for his lifetime of poor self-care choices. And I thought he would wake-up and regret letting me go. He agreed and cried.

As we walked back to the hotel, he grabbed my hand. After a few glasses of wine and too many tears, I tried to kiss him and he said, "I'm sorry. I just don't feel it." We both cried as we laid on a king sized bed, feet apart. He asked me, after a silence, to be give him a chance. "A chance?" He said, " A chance to work through this ****. I think we may have a chance if we do."
So I agreed and he said that we should continue therapy.

When we returned home yesterday, I told J that I thought we shouldn't have any contact for a while. I worry that he uses me as a crutch and I think he needs to see what life would look like without me. So we are not going to see each other or talk before our next therapy appt. next week.

I don't know if I'm doing the right things. I just know that I'm out of tears. And I need to see some progression.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Far out -

this is just so painful -

when I read what you have written here I am so reminded of when my H was still with me and he would (it seemed to me) find ever new ways of rejecting me and withdrawing from me.

I also remember the counselling thing: choices.

yes we do have choices - but we feel like we don't

in the end I had to ask my H to leave - time and time again because he would't make up his mind directly. 

couldn't be clear or straight with me.

I think that you are making progress and that you are seeing that you have choices - and yes one of those is not to see this person.

In my experience it will hurt more at first (brace yourself for this) but then it does give you some breathing room.

You start to remember that you are separate from this person. 

so many people told me to protect myself and for so long I didn't understand what this meant. 

I can hear myself wanting to say this to you and I hope you find a way to do this .....

if he can't be clear sadly you do need to be clear

and if he isn't looking after you - you have to take care of this as well....

please keep on posting when you can


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thanks K. I'm doing ok- keeping busy. I needed the time without the constant crying. I have been exhausted for months. Mental/emotional pain seems to be more draining than the physical for me.
We have never gone for more than a day without communication-in 7 years. I feel like part of me is missing. I keep hoping he will be forced to realize that I'm not going to wait around forever and I need to see progression if I choose to continue the investment.
And then I have the moments when I think, "well I'm doing ok so I bet he's happy. He'll probably decide he likes his life without me." And I'll be forced to grieve all other again. I wish I could turn my stupid brain off for a while.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes they do have to start accepting the consequences -

and that is awful you really do feel as though part of you is missing.

I had some awful sensations associated with that -

I went through a stage of hating my body because it reminded me of him????

and I couldn't even stand the kids to touch me 

glad to so I seem to have overcome that one! 

glad to hear you are keeping busy - what do they say fake it till you make it?

take it easy


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

wren: Your D.C. story sounds familiar to me. Having notions that this would be the "makeup" trip. The trip to energize our marriage. It ended up being the trip that reminded up of our problems. Laying on the bed crying-feet apart. Man, that struck a chord! 

It's ironic how people's lives can be so parrallel. Different states...different countries but similiar stories.

I understand when the pain becomes so great and you are the one that WANTS to save the marriage. You end up saying "get out" or "we need to separate." Not because you really want it but because you have NO other choice. He isn't giving you anything to work with...sorrow.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

You are so right, CW. Sorrow. And I am sick of it.
The thing that kills me is I have given several outs. I have made it so easy for him to walk away and not turn back. But he is the one that says , "please. give me a chance. I think I can work through my stuff. We have a chance. don't give up yet."
Well, show me the work or walk away! Why does he do this? Does he love me? Is he that scared?!


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

I am extremely impressed at your strength. I'm also happy that the therapist pointed out that you have just as much power to call it a day as he has.

That's true in every relationship, no matter how good. Only one vote ends it. That it may take someone longer to arrive there than others doesn't negate that truth. Everyone's capacity to take crap is different.

You're reaching your limit. It is good that he sees you have limits. He doesn't have carte blanche to take advantage of your love.

Be careful though, on this pulling you back in thing that he's started. As soon as you come back, he'll pull away again. That's why it is so important to let go. Then if he comes back, he can't blame you. It is on him. You didn't make him do anything.

But your therapist seems good and she'll teach him that.

Continued good luck to you. I think you're doing brilliantly under the circumstances.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thanks dobo! I don't feel like I'm doing brilliantly. But I am growing stronger each day and I realize that while I have been imperfect, I am a work-in-progress. I'm learning to love me so begging for mere crumbs isn't enough any longer. I love him. I think he will regret the loss of the relationship, if it ends. I just hope this space truly shakes him up. I'm not going to wait around forever. Life is happening, right now.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes Wren, just like to chime in and say you are doing great...

I remember saying to my H -

"you may be choosing this but I am choosing LIFE"

it is so true


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Keep growing in your strength. You'll have good and bad days..where you wonder where the strength went. 

You are doing remarkable.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thank you all so much for the encouragement.
I ate dinner with my neighbors and attempted to have a good time. I would glance at the house, every now and again, and find myself saddened by the thought he's not there. I miss him. I don't like life without him. I am living it. I can live it. I don't need him. I want him. And I want him, to want me.
I hate this.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

You can of course you can and you will do it even though you are sad 
keep going


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I've been reading Chapman's _Love Languages_ again today. I keep reading the "Love is a Choice" chapter over and over.
I am in gutteral pain and fleeting moments of anger today. This is the longest we've gone with no contact. My best friend left for a week long trip this morning. And I am feeling alone and vulnerable.
So I ponder. If we have family members that cause pain and anger, yet we can forgive and love them because they are our loved ones...why is it that our committed relationships are seen as disposable? His parents have hurt him more than I ever have but does he still love them? "yes, they are my parents."
Do you love me? "I don't know." Am I not family?
Why is he choosing to withhold love from someone that's been more of a family member than his own blood?
God, I hurt so badly.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Just want to say I am thinking of you 
I know that feeling of Why, Why, Why and your best friend going away - know what that feels like as well - keep on posting 
know at least that there are people in this mad world who have a sense of what you are going through....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thanks k.

I numbed myself last night and paid for it by bowing to the porcelin gods. I rarely do that because I come from a family of addicts. I was weak last night. But I forgive myself this morning.
So today is the first day we can contact each other again. Just as I woke up, I heard my phone. It was a good morning text from J. He said he just woke up.

Instead of feeling happy that he thought of me first thing this morning, texted me...I just became angry that that he didn't magically wake up and say, "I miss you."

What's wrong with me? I don't even know how to think of feel anymore. Do I look at his text as a good sign? Or do I let myself dwell on my skewed expectations? 

Maybe I'm insane.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

oh dear - hope you are feeling better now!

I stopped drinking when my H left..never drank much anyway - 
but only just starting to miss it..but not that part...

the text? personally I would take this as a good sign - 

the tricky thing is wren that when we find ourselves in these palces with 'limited' contact and ambiguous motives we want to 'read' everything 

and honestly now ( I know from experience) we end up attaching way too much significance to even the smallest of signs....

I know it's not easy - and I still 'interpret' texts of 3 words or less as well!

but what I am trying to do is just refrain from getting into too much micro analysis -

you will have good and bad signs, good and bad,..it's a cycle and we expect them to act how we want them to and tehy won't and so everything can be disapointing....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm feeling stronger tonight.
J asked me to lunch. I asked him how the last few days alone felt. He said he missed me. That is the 1st time since the separation that he's said that without me asking first. He also said for the 1st time he let himself feel lonely. He did a lot of resentment work and said he's ready to share it in therapy on Tues. I asked him if he's still angry with me and he said no. He said that he's mad at himself more than anything. And when I told him that I wish he's forgive himself and I love him. He said he feels unlovable.
I talked to him more about how I feel he needs to decide whether he wants to commit to a life with me or commit to a life without me. He says he's scared to make a decision because he has no faith in his abilities. And that he fears he's inadequate. I can't help him feel better about himself. I told him that I can't live another 6 months in limbo. He understands and says I deserve so much better.
He wants to read Chapman's, _The Five Love Languages_after I read the section on love is a choice. He seemed receptive. He actually cried a lot in front on me today. So, he's feeling again. Tuesday, during our session, I hope we can discuss how love is a choice.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

WOW - this is progress real feeling - 
You know when they aren't faking it -
don't lose sight of what you want - and take things slowly....
stay strong!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

wren: This is good news that he's opening up. He capable of opening up! Wow! YOu don't know how significant that is...my H isn't capable of opening up. 

Mc is great but the words that he's using indicate a self worth problem or depression. Something that he may need to work on individually. 

This is really great news.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thanks K and CW. I do think today was progress. He's taking antidepressant medication and seeing his own therapist, as well. He's always had a "not good enough" complex. But I do see changes in him since he moved out. 
He sent me a text earlier to let me know he started reading the book. Made me smile. But I know I need not jump ahead of myself. I just need to stay strong.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

wren - yes once again good news - 
it seems like the separation is helping him heal and helping him find the language to communicate -

can you try and take this time for yourself now as well -

concentrate on you just as he is concentrating on himself?

good luck!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Is it not weird how one day you feel like you can conquer anything and the next day, you feel like putty?

Today, I am depressed. I never got dressed and have been in a xanax slumber off and on, after a panic attack at 7 am this morning.

I sent him an email when I couldn't sleep. I told him that I wasn't pressuring him to make a decision. I just fear that this limbo is a detriment to my self-growth. I have much more to lose if he decides against re-commitment. I do have a choice but not two choices, as he does. It only takes one of us to say no more.

He responded, "The decision is weighing on me too. It want to honor both of us through this decision, and make sure that whatever path is chosen is the path that will serve us both in the long term. My fears are both valid and smokescreens. I know this and am grappling with differentiating one from the other. The problem is exacerbated by my distrust of my own logical and emotional feelings. I really do go from one feeling to another quickly now, and it confuses me. Like yesterday, I went from a mild panic attack to feeling nearly overwhelming sadness, then the feelings of strong dislike and distrust of myself that I expressed. I too want to end the anguish. this is most difficult time for both of us. 

I am enjoying the book, I think it makes alot of sense the way people express and expect or need to be expressed in return. I am looking forward to reading more through the book and understanding how to express the languages that do not come "naturally."


So now, he wants to discuss a timeline with our therapist tomorrow. What do you guys think about all this?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

He is articulate I'll give him that much -

but being clear about how confused he is - well that's what you call paradoxical...

why a timeline?

wouldn't that just add more pressure? 

Wren - I know it is hard - and I may not be giving you great advice but is there anyway you can lay off the pressure?

I wish that I would have been able to do that....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm scared K. I'm scared that the other shoe will drop and I'll be left alone to start over, again. If he decides not to come home, I will have to move, find a job, and leave everything I love. Why? Because I could never afford this mortgage payment. I lost my job and the unemployment rate in this area is close to 20%. Because we aren't married, I am not owed anything. Just now that I am feeling better psychologically, I am terrified of another breakdown. So I think my pressure is my way of attempting to gain some control. I know it's wrong. I just don't how long is long enough to hold onto hope, you know? I'm so scared that I'm only a crutch to him.
Maybe I'm self-sabotaging?

"It is not about not wanting us as it is my fears and misgivings about myself and commitment." when I read that I want to believe it's his truth and not take it personally. I want to respect his need to be sure. But I don't want to be a desperate fool either.

How do I balance my fears, trust, and self-preservation?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

leave aside all the money etc fears

what's your gut telling you to do?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Timelines are a very bad idea. The put pressure on the people to behave a certain way at a certain time. I don't mind broad timelines...if the relationship doesn't come to restoration by a year (for instance). 

I agree with knortoh...I read in your posts "pressure." Maybe it's meant in a noncomfrontational way. However, when you ask "when" and "if" it adds to pressure. I would say skip the relationship talk unless it's in the counseling session for now. 

The more you move toward him the more he will back away.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

My gut is conflicted which is why I panic. I'm always been very intuitive-based.
He sent me a text and asked if he could come over after work. Against my better judgment I said yes. We usually do not see each other during the week unless we have a mutual meeting or social engagement. But I did want to acknowledge my pressure and apologize. He said he felt lost today and had a hard time concentrating on work. I empathized but didn't offer much conversation. If he wanted to come over, I wanted to hear his thoughts. After about 20 min. of hem and hawing over I don't want I want or what I'm capable of, I told him no choice had to be made tonight and we could talk more at therapy tomorrow. He just sat there. I said, " you can leave. I'm fine." He proceeded to tell me how he didn't know if he wanted to leave- went back and forth and proceeded to tell me that he thought I didn't want him to go. And he didn't want to hurt my feelings.
I said, "you didn't ask me what I wanted. You went on and on about you. I would like for you to leave." He looked stunned and asked why. I was honest- " I don't feel any better with you here. Go to your apt. and be with yourself. It seems to be what you need to focus on right now."
He hugged me goodbye, as usual. And I didn't stand outside to watch him leave, for the first time.
You ladies are right. No more pressure. No timeline. No more focus solely on him. I'm done. I refuse to be a victim. I will grieve and allow myself to feel. But I will no longer grovel, even if it's subconscious.

** I should mention that my educational and work background is in mental health. Sometimes we are the worst patients.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

That was a strong confident message that you sent him! Good for you. It puts you in the driver seat. The more control, like this, that you can muster the better your anxiety will be.

You don't have to be a victim. Take charge of what you can. 

A nice quote that for some reason is etched in my mind "you can't be walked on unless you are lying down!"


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

wren
yes the minute you stope being 'reactive' you begin to get power...
you are sounding so much clearer -
until he can say with all his heart, mind and everything else 
THIS IS WHERE I WANT TO BE 
it is best for him to stay away 
as I learnt painfully if they come back for comfort or because they have a 'bad day' it just ends badly - another saying I like 
is 'The only person you have to live with for the rest of your life is yourself...."


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Wow, I am have never felt so exhausted and empowered at the same time, in my life!
Things came to a head during therapy today. We discussed our trip to DC. We discussed J's need to hold onto his resentment. And I was finally validated! The therapist agrees that he is blaming me for an entire life of feeling inadequate. She said that if he chooses not to let go that couples' therapy will do nothing to help us move forward. She also reinforced the idea that he needs to make a choice soon whether or not he wants me in his life romantically. Why soon? Because it's not fair to me to keep stringing me along just satisfy his own needs.
I didn't cry for the first time in therapy. I got angry! I said that I don't want to be his friend. I don't want to be someone he "hangs out" with because he is too scared to be alone. I am worth more than the constant blaming for his low self esteem and I will no longer be satisfied with being his scapegoat. It felt great!
I have not allowed myself to show anger in fear he would withdraw. But I can't be responsibility for his feelings or lack of feelings any longer. So in the car, I finally let is all flow. I exhaled. I told him that I support his healing and recovery but will no longer be the casualty. Our next appt. is on Monday and we agreed a choice would be made then. When asked if he wanted no contact to help him do the needed work, he said no. I said okay and I hope he has a good day.
Tomorrow, I may grieve. But for right now, I will enjoy feeling this self-love and empowerment. This is no ultimatum. This is not pressure. We are at an impasse and the old me would let it linger for how ever long he wants. No more. It's time to put up or shut up. And to have our therapist reinforce my thoughts and feelings helped me realize that I can trust myself again.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Anger can be a useful tool. It's good that you didint let it linger. He needed to hear your hurt. You are the one be scapegoated. It's not nice and doesn't feel good. He needs to know. 

I'm glad you got your strength back. We all have good and bad days or ups and downs. You are gathering yourself and that is wonderful!


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

wren...

As someone who has some of the same feelings as your H, I was curious if he blames any of his feelings of low self-esteem and inadequacies on you or your relationship?

I feel some of my feelings were brought on by a controlling spouse who hurt me emotionally over several years through words and actions. For that I hold onto a lot of resentment.

I wish you the best.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thanks CW!

D8zed, yes he does. That was one of the subjects discussed today. He has never allowed himself to voice his needs and wants. Because of that he sought relationships that were controlling and his ex-wife was emotionally abusive. During the last year or so, he was triggered by my actions and began feeling the unresolved anger. And he has transferred all the anger, resentment, insecurity, inadequacies onto me. Not that I am blameless. But I'm not to blame for 30-something years of choices. He's finally acknowledged that fact.

Until the resentment can be resolved, no matter who's in the relationship with him, it will continue being an issue. No one expects total forgiveness. It is a process but recognition is the first step.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

"never voice his needs and wants" - This is an interesting statement because I believe this is a typical behavior of "nice guys". CW has referred to her H as a "nice guy".

What's interesting about that term is that "nice guys" are not truly nice guys because we (and yes, I consider myself one) manipulate situations and people to get the result we desire. Why? Because we don't want to hurt people or they may not like us so we avoid confrontations. Sounds noble but it isn't. It's due to lack of self-esteem and self-worth.

This is why some husbands are not able to truly express what they want and keep stringing their spouses along.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

You are right d8zed! J was raised in a home where no one spoke about anger, sadness, discord, etc. Just smile or pray. His father was passive and emotionally withdrawn. He has feared he would become his father. He did but it was by choice. When you are passive, you choose a dominant mate. When you feel unworthy, you often choose an abuser or one who builds you up with positivity. And when I say choose, I am speaking subconsciously. J has always chosen doomed relationships to repeat a pattern- damaging but comfortable. When he met me, he found a dominant, out-spoken, positive person that only asked for one thing-honesty. Honesty is hard for a "nice guy" as you said. And when he failed to be honest, his self-worth lessened more. But I had no idea of this, at the time. He chose behaviors to support his pattern and so did I. I'm a rescuer/fixer. My ex-husband told me that he was a better man after years with me and I could go into business prepping men for being a good husband. *lol*
When I feel into severe depression over a year ago, I became immerse in negativity and gloom. I could no longer uphold our relationship or help him "feel good" anymore. And he couldn't take care of me because everything he does feels inadequate. It was a vicious cycle. So when something snapped and no longer wanted to be a "nice guy," all his built anger and resentment was unleashed onto me. He is now finally understanding his part of this mess of a puzzle. He's understanding that this victim status is not serving him. And I won't help be a victim any longer by accepting all the blame.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren, dazed - so much of this is familiar...

these guys (people) are fine when everything is fine - it is when they have to say NO that the problems start and fester because they can't express themselves...and even that makes them feel inadequate and yes they are drawn to articulate clear people -
light people who know what they want out of life....

I am certain that this is what has happened with my H -

He never told me when he was unhappy and so I assumed (incorrectly) that he was cool....

He harbours resentments from day 1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really it's amazing - 

and he is still holding onto them....

it's amazing but oh so sad


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

In a span of two years- my father was diagnosed with cancer, I left Florida and moved home to help him with chemo/radiation, started a demanding job, J's father received a kidney transplant, we bought a house, he changed jobs, and I lost my job. When the dust settled, I fell apart and became severely depressed. I can take responsibility for my part. But there has to be some recognition of all the stressors that created the environment for my illness. So I became not-so-nice because for once I needed him to take care of me and he couldn't? Damn right. I admit it. I'm just glad he's now admitting that I'm no villain and I didn't create the "nice guy syndrome." I played a part in the breakdown, yes. I am imperfect. I have flaws. I have my own syndromes, as well. But part of letting go of resentments is owning your role, as well. Some people just aren't ready to look at themselves that closely yet. Sometimes they don't until it's too late.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren - any relationship would be under strain in those circumstances....life is tough sometimes...but it throws these guys ...they can't take the pressure -
all our guys have 'bailed' essentially that is what has happened - rather bail than stick and work it out....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Dazed is right. That is me as well at times. Only in personal settings, but that is the cycle. Unlike the others I chose to stay and try. I am fiercely loyal. She left.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

WOW! Wren your H could have been my H. A house where everything is good. Nobody gets too upset or asks the obvious questions. Where NO skills are learned....everything is about being "happy" and having "fun" and being a "good person." 

A certain amount of conflict in the household is good. Learning to appropriately deal with conflict is even better. Heck! Like is full of conflict. 

Our H's can't help with how they were raised. But, they can't wake up and help themselves now. They feel bad and can choose to do something about it. 

FA: I can tell you are fiercely loyal...join the club. It's a wonderful trait. I can also tell that you are like me....if you get stabbed in the back don't expect me to stick around!!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

The loyalty one is interesting -

when my H left me the first time his sister kept on saying to me "He is very loyal to you..." and I just didn't know what that meant I am still pondering it...

does it just mean that he doesn't say anything bad about me? 

has anyone any thoughts on this???


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

My husband is loyal as well. We both take up for each other and won't let anyone else bad mouth the other...during this divorce. He has been faithful and a good man during our marriage. I plan on respecting that...

Now...I can say things about my husband. Nothing mean really just the truth as I see but the moment someone else wants to do that...I will stick up for him. 

He probably doesn't say a bad word about your kortoh. My H tells me how wonderful I am, how everyone loves me, blah blah blah.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Loyalty. Yes, we are both very loyal to each other. During all of this turmoil, only our parents have known. We didn't invite anyone else into the mix because we didn't want to focus our energy on defending one another.

We talked on the phone for about 30 min. last night. He said he was drained but knows what the therapist said is true. He said he never thought of his barrier between us as punishment. He only saw it as self-protection. I asked him why he needs protection from me? He sees the difference now.

Before he moved out, I wrote pages and pages of everything I was sorry about and gave it to him. He said he was going to read it again last night in hopes of more forgiveness work. Before bed he sent me a text and said it brought up more feelings.

I want to think he's leaning towards choosing forgiveness and the relationship. But I'm scared to believe. He sees his therapist on Thurs. I always dread those days because in the past he would withdraw. Maybe this time will be different. He is definitely feeling a lot and trying to be emotionally open with me.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren...this sounds so promising -
I have my fingers crossed for you....
in the meantime 
take good care of yourself


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Those are the first steps Wren. He might withdrawl after therapy because of his pain and the emotions he has to deal with. That was one of the things that happened to me. It would hurt so bad after discovering something about myself and looking back on how it affected people that it took me a few days to a week to get throught it, etc. Of course it didn't help my situation since my w was looking for instant change. But permanent change doesn't happen overnight. Takes time. Again unfortunate for me since she kept moving away.

Here he is reconnecting. Take this as a big positive.

CW, yes maybe my loyalty to her is a fault.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Here's my fear- if I believe, I somehow become more vulnerable and lose my feeling of empowerment?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Oh Wren - I remember that fear - it is terrifying and I also decided that unless I was open with all my heart what was the point of anything?
now my situation didn't work out how I would have liked - 
and I suffered worse when my H ditched me for 2nd time so I guess 
if I can offer any advice it would be keep something in reserve keep self-preservation number one I was hopeless, guileless at that - very naive in fact....I was swept away with relief at not being pain again....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I know it is a balancing act. Keep moving forward for yourself first and foremost. The rest hopefully wll fall in place.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

I don't mean to sound like the voice of doom but recovery from being a 'nice guy' does not happen overnight or quickly. We (nice guys) feel horribly bad about ourselves when we hurt someone and we will give up our own happiness in order to make the hurt person feel good again. However, we will resent you for it later since we had to give up our own happiness.

The point of this post is to say go slooooowly and make sure your H is really doing the work to get out of his nice guy syndrome. Always remember, we nice guys are NOT honest people, especially with ourselves.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

What do I do d8zed? A decision is to be made by Monday. He's promised emotional honest. Do I choose to believe him?


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

wren, Can you tell me again what decision will be made on Monday? I recall reading something about it but I don't recall what it is now. Sorry.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Dazed,

How are you overcoming being the "nice guy". Everything you write describes a lot of me. I am working on it, but any additional insight is much appreciated.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Complete detachment and no more couples' counseling or complete investment in the relationship with continued therapy.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

Feelingalone said:


> Dazed,
> 
> How are you overcoming being the "nice guy". Everything you write describes a lot of me. I am working on it, but any additional insight is much appreciated.


FA...

Go to Amazon and search for "No More Mr. Nice Guy" - Dr. Glover. If you haven't read it, you'll find it's like reading your own life story.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Dazed - can you possibly export what is in your brain to my H's brain???? You are incredible on this stuff. 
I don't think there's much chnace for me because my H's resentments go back 14 years - yes that's correct...to New Year's Eve 14 years ago when he "wanted to break up with me" 


he believes he stayed with me to make me happy thereby making himself _un_happy....
are you nice guys that messed up ???...capable of staying with someone for 14 years because you just can't get around to saying 
I don't actually love you.....

don't worry you don't really have to answer that one


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

wren said:


> Complete detachment and no more couples' counseling or complete investment in the relationship with continued therapy.


What is your H saying he wants to you? Do you know if he is saying the same thing to the counselor or other people when you're not around?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Dazed,

Are you and your w back together?


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

knortoh said:


> I don't think there's much chnace for me because my H's resentments go back 14 years - yes that's correct...to New Year's Eve 14 years ago when he "wanted to break up with me"
> 
> 
> he believes he stayed with me to make me happy thereby making himself _un_happy....are you nice guys that messed up ???...capable of staying with someone for 14 years because you just can't get around to saying I don't actually love you.....


- "my H's resentments go back 14 years": My resentment goes back to around 1989-1990 after being told I wasn't capable of doing something. So to me, 14 years ain't nuttin'! ;-)

- "are you nice guys that messed up": You better believe we are. But keep in mind our behaviors were learned during our youth. For me, part of it was living in a household where you never rocked the boat and you never talked about your feelings.

We really don't mean to be malicious. It's just all we know.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

D8zed said:


> What is your H saying he wants to you? Do you know if he is saying the same thing to the counselor or other people when you're not around?


He says he wants to move past all the resentment and he knows he's transferring a lot of blame onto me that's not mine. He's really honest in therapy with me. He struggles and tears up when he's speaking. We can both tell the honesty is difficult for him to share. I know his therapist has been working with him on his anger issues with his father. Other than that, I have nothing to go on d8zed. He tells me often that as hard as it may be, he is committed to be emotionally honest in his life. Up until today, he's had no issue doinbg exactly what's he wanted even if it hurt me tremendously.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

Feelingalone said:


> Dazed,
> 
> Are you and your w back together?


That's kind of a funny question because remember - I'm a nice guy which means I struggle to get through every day in a very unfulfilling, loveless marriage. In other words, I never left because I don't want to hurt anyone. 


(wren, I promise I'm not trying to hijack your thread.)


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Dazed, this is amazing. I discovered the same thing about myself in counseling. That part of it goes back to my childhood for the same reasons - don't rock the boat, don't talk about your feelings, be the best. Then add in an anger coping mechanism of not hurting anothers feelings and voila a nice guy. But the funny thing is for me that I never was like this with any other woman I dated. Only with my w. I believe because she is the only one I truly loved and it brought it out.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

D8zed said:


> That's kind of a funny question because remember - I'm a nice guy which means I struggle to get through every day in a very unfulfilling, loveless marriage. In other words, I never left because I don't want to hurt anyone.
> 
> 
> (wren, I promise I'm not trying to hijack your thread.)


No, it's fine. I'm being educated. I just bought the book you suggested. I'm going to read it and pass it along to J.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Neither am I trying to do that Wren. Just when I hear about myself I want to explore it.

Wren, remember this isn't even on a conscious level for us. It just happens. That is why it is so hard to overcome. But I don't want to leave my marriage - she does because of her resentment of me being the Nice Guy I guess. She doesn't believe I love her because I withdrew from her during a highly stressful time for me and as Dazed says, didn't want to rock the boat. Marry me up with a woman who can be "rigid" and uncompromising and voila, I became a wimp in her eyes.

Holy moly it is all coming together for me. I've got to get a copy of that book.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

wren said:


> He says he wants to move past all the resentment and he knows he's transferring a lot of blame onto me that's not mine. He's really honest in therapy with me. He struggles and tears up when he's speaking. We can both tell the honesty is difficult for him to share. I know his therapist has been working with him on his anger issues with his father. Other than that, I have nothing to go on d8zed. He tells me often that as hard as it may be, he is committed to be emotionally honest in his life. Up until today, he's had no issue doinbg exactly what's he wanted even if it hurt me tremendously.


Sounds to me like he's making very positive progress. The fact that he recognizes the resentment and wants to move past it is all good. 

The one thing that you and the counselor/therapist need to continually stress to him is to be honest with himself. Say what he means and not what he thinks people want to hear. 

Since he's been doing exactly what he's wanted, it is possible he has (1) recognized that he is a nice guy and hasn't been looking out for himself, and (2) he is making an attempt to please himself more (this isn't a bad thing at all), BUT (3) maybe he's gone a little too far away from "nice guyness" and is bordering on being a jerk.

Bottom line: Sounds to me like he's making a little progress and if you believe/feel he is being sincere in his efforts, then continue on. What is your gut instinct telling you?

Word of caution: If you decide to keeping working on things with him, please please stay "detached" emotionally as much as possible and don't be needy or demanding. We nice guys will attach our emotional hoses to you and suck you dry if you're not careful. (Those words are Dr. Glover's, not mine)


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

My gut tells me that for the first time in his life, he is looking in the mirror and choosing to be honest with himself. And I think it's because he's found a safe place in me, which is why I've been the scapegoat.
Thank you so much for your insight!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren - sorry for hijacking as well 
but guys you knwo what the problem is with my H as well...
I think he really doesn't know what he feels - not at all.

He can flip-flop dramatically - and he left the 2nd time not only because thinsg were extremely stressful but also because he couldn't stand hurting me and seeing me hurt....

well kind of anyway - 

and I think that's a biggie why he won't come back...doesn't want to risk hurting me again -

but who knows - he also says that he just doesn't think he has ever had the feelings necessary for a lifelong partner..and he does think he can have them with someone else ...

so maybe all this Mr. Nice Guy stuff is just a red herring....

but absolutely same background - very damaged childhood - couldn't express anything really ....(mad mother) 

But Wren I still don't understand the timeline...is this the counsellor?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Yes, K. Our therapist pretty much said she could no longer help us as we are at an impasse. She said he either needs to fully invest for the process to work or detach. The tricky part is this-while we've only been technically separated for a few months...it's really been more than a year. J said he's ready to made a choice because he feels like he will continue letting his fear dragging this out. He needs the structure.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

D8zd: This IS amazing....I am also married and separated to a "nice guy." I am going to read the book and pass it to my H.

I have a feeling there are many nice guys lurking around....nobody know they are hurting because they don't let you in.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

OK - our counsellor did the same thing and my H opted out at that stage ....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

And J may opt out. But at least the limbo will be over. I will detach completely and he will know life without me. That will not end my love for him. It won't give me a sense of letting go. I will grieve unlike I've grieved up to this point. But I can't find any semblance of peace if I continue to invest my all ( with fears and flaws ) in someone that can't/won't do the same.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Good you are sounding strong W


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes CW, this is amazing. I wish I found Dazed's comments months ago. Maybe my situation wouldn't have progressed to where I'm at, darn it. Can't change the past though. I'll have the book today. i just can't believe that it all fits to me. Don't rock the boat, please everyone but myself. I'm Mr. Nice Guy and the Nice Lady all rolled into one. Scary stuff.

Wren,

Remember patience. As Dazed said this is a process for J. And it isn't an overnight one. The fact that he is starting to realize his part is incredible progress. It might not seem that way, but until you realize it, you can't fix it for good. Even then it will take time. I know of what I speak. I'm still learning and changing but it seems a snails pace at times.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren,

FA really knows how your H may feel. It is significant progress (for our H's) to realize that it's THEM. My H isn't there yet. FA keeps telling me that he will get there. 

It's like a first step.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

And when you guys say patience? What does that look like? What does he need from me?


You know, I was doing fine today and suddenly, a panic attack.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren patience - it looks like space -lovely gentle space around you and around him - can you look upon him as a child? because that's where you learn all the skills of patience....
patience is also stillness, calmness...
and it is a practice - like love 
you practice it and wow you have it....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I guess patience would include not asking if he has a plan for moving back into our home? It's the only issue that continously brings defensive behavior from him. I told him I missed cooking for him and spending the evenings together. He said he does, too. So I asked, do you ever think about moving back home? He said yes. And I asked if he has a plan or if he's just content with going month to month? He huffed. I told him that I just miss him, which is no crime and I just wondered where his head is, concerning the apartment. He apologized for being defensive-"I feel like no one can understand why I needed to live alone. I didn't see it as leaving you. I saw/see it as being with me. I feel guilty because I left you, feeling abandoned."

Does patience include never asking about what affects my future? Was that seen as pressure? How do I tread lightly while protecting myself?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren, 

I think you answered your questions. It's all of that and more...he needs this time and doesn't want to feel pressured. Truly, he cares but at this stage he cares MORE about himself. Yep...it's selfish. Give him awhile. 

You will know WHEN to call it. When you don't see any progress or he is unwilling to work on things himself. 

The danger lies...if you pressure him that he will want to divorce. H's like ours are runners and if you give him a choice to fight or flight. Guess which one he'll choose?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

But for him to get better he has to be selfish. I know it will be change, but he has to think about himself more than others. Eventually there will need to more of a balance, but don't expect him to go back to what he was. That is what got you here in the first place. So be prepared, you will have to change too. That is what is in the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. I haven't gotten it yet, but have now been on the support forum.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I guess I just worry because my therapists as well as everything I read suggests that a healing separation last 3-6 mos. Longer than 6 mos. and there is a greater chance of no return due to reconnection issues.

And the holidays are coming. When he moved out, we talked about hoping for a holiday gift. When I referenced by the end of the year, which was the cut-off previously, he said oh yeah. I said, "J, it's October. The end of the year is approaching." He seemed unaware and said, "I guess you are right. It doesn't seem like it's October."

I don't want an emotionally dishonest partner. I'm changed. Since my medication, therapy, and time alone- I have become stronger, self-loving, and not willing to settle. So I will support his growth, healing, and change. Eventually, we will have to discuss the living situation. We literally can't afford two households forever. And, there's the emotional side to the arrangement too. I won't mention again without our therapist present.

I did apologize tonight for bringing it up. I told him that I approach it hyper-emotionally because I'm the one that's always asked when he's coming home. I'm responsible for paying the bills and taking care of the household. I just asked for some compassion as I find more for his situation. He agreed.

Sometimes I feel like I'm walking through a minefield.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It's good wren that you are getting stronger. I went through a depression and NEVER want to go there again. 

I have been fearful that this crisis would make me return to the depths of hopelessness. So far, I feel the opposite of hopeless.

It's good because you are going to need that strength. Good work Wren!!


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

wren,

Try to remember one of the recovering "nice guy" mantras: No one was put on this planet to make you happy (other than your parents). Recovery is about US (the nice guys). We have to learn how to make ourselves happy and be happy with who we are.

Your husband said: "I feel like no one can understand why I needed to live alone. I didn't see it as leaving you."

Man, can I certainly relate to that statement! And sorry to say this but I applaud him for having the [email protected] to make a very difficult decision. 

wren, are you a fairly independent woman? Do you have hobbies or interests outside the home or do not involve him? Are you able to make yourself happy or do you rely on him for your happiness?

I can tell you that my W very much depends on me and my moods to determind how she's going to feel that particular day. That approach is sooooo draining on me. I would LOVE to live alone for awhile to relieve some of that pressure and to rediscover ME.

One of the "nice guy" recovery methods is to detach ourselves from the outcome. Work on fixing ourself first. As a result of doing so, our relationships might improve and be stronger OR we may realize our current relationships are not what we want in our lives. Detach from the outcome.

This is my advice to you: detach from the outcome. Learn to live your life as if he's not in it. Do things YOU love and that make YOU happy. Try to realize you don't need HIM to make you happy. Remember, you can't make him love you. It's HIS choice just as it's YOUR choice to love him. By taking this approach, it will give him the space and freedom to figure out who he is and how he really feels about your marriage. 

Make sense?

P.S. You said you didn't want an emotionally dishonest person. Nice Guys are definitely that.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thanks CW! I am feeling stronger each day. And even when I feel grief or panic, after I move through the emotions, I can feel the growth.

Thanks again for your input d8zed! One of the reasons why J fell for me is my independence. Since day one, we have struggled with his codependency. If I had a dollar for every time I've asked him, " J, you won't be in trouble. What is your real answer?" I would be rich!

I'm very proud of J's recovery. And I'm also proud that he feels safe enough to be honest with me. This is how I know our individual healing is helping our relationship healing. Just as J's a nice guy, I am a molestation and rape survivor. No one comes without challenges, baggage, and wounds. I think we find mirrors in the partners we choose to help heal such wounds. I firmly believe in the Imago theory (from _Getting the Love You Want_).

I've learned through this process that I don't need anyone for happiness. Happiness comes from within and it is a choice. I never thought I would survive this separation. I've battled severe panic disorder, agoraphobia, and major depression. I thought being alone would too hard for a person with the worst abandonment issues. But I've done it and I keep doing it. I want J in my life. I don't need him. I know the difference.

One day at a time is my mantra. Marry yourself first and promise to never leave you!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I LOVE your last post. 

It's amazing how people can become stronger because of their past crisis. You are a poster child for this!

I am too!

I love the statement "marry yourself first and promise to never leave you!" Wonderful!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

CW, I think it's a SARK quote. Have you ever read any of her books? She has a great website, as well.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm not sure who SARK is?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Planet SARK


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Wren,

D8zed is right. It was a big step for J and emotionally honest what he said. You will have to adjust to that and you might not really like it.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

What wouldn't I like exactly and why, FA?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Because if he shakes his Nice Guy persona, he will be his real self and you might not know that person. Do you understand? If he changes, it won't be who he was, but who he was supposed to be. I'm not saying he will be a bad guy, but different. Able to tell you when he is displeased with you. Strong enough to voice his opinions when he knows you won't agree. Things like that. Are you ready for that? Think about it. THere will be change. And you will have to change too.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

No one stays the same. We all grow and change. The trick is to be able to accept the person. I'm not the same person he met 7years ago. I'd like to think we all evolve. I do understand what you are saying though. Ultimately, I just want him happy and healthy- with or without me.
He's been doing what wants, saying what he wants, and making choices without me for a few months now. Believe it or not, it's a relief. I hope he continue doing so because if he's fulfilled, all his relationships will improve as well.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Then I think you can do it. Just realize that he will change and it is not about you, but him. That is all I know right now. I haven't read the book or started on the path to change in this area myself, except that i have accepted this is me and understand how it has affected me throughout my life. I feel empowered with just this knowledge. He may seem selfish at times based on previous experiences, but he will be flexing his new muscles that haven't been used in years. That is what will change. And if you love him you have to let it happen without being down on him.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

J and I briefly talked about sitting out on the patio and having dinner last night. It was therapy day for him so I let him know that if he needed/wanted alone time, I was fine. He called after therapy and said he wanted to go the apt., write some stuff down before he forgot it, and to do some more written work. "Is that ok?" I said of course, do what you need to do. And I thanked him for calling.

He texted me a few times throughout the night to check in with me and I focused my answers on supporting his alone time and self-work.

Since Monday's therapy appt. is approaching, I was wondering how I should handle the rest of the week? Should I just detach and let him come to me? Should I ask how his appt. went since he said he was completely drained?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hey Wren I'd give him space as much as he needs - he sounds like he is engaging honestly and sincerely - and try at the same time to focus on yourself - I know this is still so hard but try to imagine that you have been given this space and time as a gift..sorry if this sounds kind of weird but I sometimes pretend that what I am going through is a gift of time and space to reflect - it kind of works for me ....


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes! Detach and let him come to you. I know it's difficult but will aid him in his self discovery. Really, you are doing great! He is going wonderful as well. 

Time and patience. No fun right???


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Time and patience, indeed!

Does that mean no contact unless contacted first? Or do I ask him what needs of me until Monday?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren we have said it in subtle ways but you keep on asking so I am going to be more direct...

DON"T CONTACT HIM.....
.
I don't even know what you may mean asking him what he 'needs' from you -

what do _you_ need this week ?

- quit thinking of this as a process where you are in the position of re-acting to him and his needs -

sorry ...just had to say it! 

( I speak with the wisdom of one recently converted to putting myself first - took me about 12 months - no kidding but I am like a reformed smoker - just don't light up around me!)


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

*lol* I understand no contact, K. 

Our therapist recommended asking J for what he needs from me to help create a safe place, essentially giving him permission without guilt, to express his wants and needs from me.

My needs are being met. No worries.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

okey dokey....
now I get it 
I am also laughing....feels good!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I can promise you, I am not one to base my moods or plans on another person. I just want to create a healing environment for everyone? I'm empathetic to a fault.

But I'm doing fine. I'm not too worried about the weekend. Whatever happens on Monday, I believe is part of a master plan for my life. I am exhaling and trusting!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

excellent - 

just stay in contact with us....


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

I agree with the others - do not initiate contact. Your H sounds very needy and very approval seeking. HE needs to fix that.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I will K, definitely. 

D8zed, he's not needy but he does seek approval. Does that tie in with the NG?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes, he is concerned about how others perceive him - i.e. approval. I do it too. Hell today I wore two different colored socks just as an exercise to not worry about it. And guess what I don't care. I know, sounds kind of lame, but a baby step.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA - wonderful!!!!!!!!!
I have two sons - one who would _never _wear mismatched socks - one who _only​_ wears mismatched socks - 

the interesting thing is that the one who wears the mismatched socks cares about which socks 'feel' good - such a sensible criterion...where socks are concerned 
I think the sock test is an excellent one and I commend you for branching out today - here's to more of the same !!!!!!!!!!!


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

"He called after therapy and said he wanted to go the apt., write some stuff down before he forgot it, and to do some more written work. "Is that ok?" "

Sounds needy and approval seeking to me.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

wren: Keep it up. I know you want to help him but he's doing it without you for now. He'll come "back" when he feels like it. 

FA: I LOVED your sock idea! Tomorrow, wear mismatched shoes! By the way-I HAVE done that before. I was on this kick, a few years back, that I had a few pairs of black sandals. The did look similiar. I rushed to put them on and went to my D's school. My friend looks down and asks "why do you have are your shoes different?" OMG. I cracked up! We couldn't stop laughing.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Ha! The sock idea is awesome. Sometimes I take for granted how difficult such a thing can be. I have always been quite different from the norm, eccentric is the kind word I believe? So seeking validation or approval for such things never occur to me. But the sock illustration opened my eyes to the struggle.

D8zed, we had tentative plans so asking if it was ok if he broke them was most likely his NG tendency. Like I said, he constantly seeks approval but there's no neediness between us.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes that is one thing, just a small thing. But it shows the depths of approval seeking.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

So how does one rid herself of paranoia when things seem to be going well?

J initiated contact yesterday and wanted to go buy a gift for my niece's birthday party, which was today, even though I'd not brought it up nor did I ask if he would attend with me.
When I told him I'd already taken care of the gift and even bought my brother one too, he seemed surprised. When he asked if could come over, I was surprised. We made dinner. No relationship talk. It was fine.

This morning he contacted me and asked about the party. Again, a surprise- a family event and he wanted to attend. There were a few awkward moments for me when I wanted to connect and reminded myself to cool it.

I thought he would drop me off and go about his way. He came in and asked what I wanted for dinner. Surprise again! We talked to our neighbor friend. Ate and watched a movie. He thanked me for a good day.

Monday is D-day. I really expected him to want an alone weekend. In the past, when there is a decision or work to be done for therapy, he would take alone time for himself. I planned to have an alone weekend, myself. We said we would talk before therapy but I suspected it would be Sun. night. 
I don't want to walk into the office with no idea of what will be said. Then again, I don't want to initiate relationship talk.

I feel ok. I'm disappointed in my wariness. Then again, I'm hardest on myself. The fact is, it's difficult for me to fully trust anything these days. I am proud I remained fairly detached, though.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren - not only do things sound good between you, you are handling everything really well - cool as a cucumber! 
have my fingers crossed bigtime for you guys!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren....excellent!! The fact that you aren't running him off with relationship talk is working! Keep it up girl. He is feeling comfortable again around you. Don't bring up the "talk" on Sunday. You let him be the guide. 

You won't get rid of the paranoia. For now, it's a part of you and rightfully so. You're not exactly on stable ground. It's part of the protective mechanism.

The fact that he practically spent the weekend with you is a terrific sign. Time and patience! Grrr.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I wish I'd found this site and you guys months ago! Thank you so much for the honesty, encouragement, and support. We'll all get there- wherever our "there" may be.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Me too - it has been a life saver...


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Me three. I've learned a lot about myself through seeing myself in the H's of your lives and others on the board. It is enlightening to a degree that a "book" isn't always. Maybe my sharing here in anonymous land will help me share in the real world. I think I've been more emotionally honest on here than with any group of people in my life. Thank you for being there, although I'm sorry it is under such circumstances.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

anonymous land - love it 
before this I never 'got' cyber space -


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Neither did I k, neither did I. 

It is nice here in anonymous land. I can be myelf with not expectations, no approval seeking. Just me with all my warts and all. It is nice. If life were this easy, there wouldn't be an anonymous land.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Today, I received the ultimate surprise. He chose no to the commitment. My eyes are nearly swollen shut and every breath I take is painful.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Oh Wren! That's it...things change to quick here in our relationships! Just when you think things may be turning.

What happened? You are a strong person...let it all out. It's your H...he isn't ready or well yet. It's obvious as he's going from one emotion to another. You don't need to be in the "middle" of his emotional rollercoaster. It's of no benefit to you.

You can let go and still love.....


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren, we are there with you - honestly we are -
just imagine us around you supporting you 
CW is correct we can continue through all of this -
I am so sorry that you are suffering 
so sorry


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Wren,

Are you ok? I know it hurt. My prayers are with you.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

wren said:


> Today, I received the ultimate surprise. He chose no to the commitment. My eyes are nearly swollen shut and every breath I take is painful.


I'm very sorry, wren. If you feel like sharing, I'm interested in hearing what words he used and what his thoughts were.

I don't know if your H is an NG or not but based on previous posts, I'm thinking he might be. Everyone, please be aware that 'nice guys' are soooo confused about what they want and have such a difficult time being honest, they will put you on an emotional yo-yo. Be very careful with your feelings and be skeptical until they have dealt with their own emotional issues.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Honestly, I'm not ok. My agoraphobia and panic disorder are back, severely. I can barely function. I'm not comfortable in my own home because everything reminds me of him. I'm not comfortable anywhere else because of my mental/emotional condition. So, I'm not getting short term relief.

Essentially he said, he can't commit because there is too much work he needs to do on himself and he can't do it while investing fully in a relationship. He doesn't want me to put my life on hold, waiting, because he doesn't know how long the work will take and what he will feel on the other side. He said while he hates himself, he doesn't feel he deserves my love nor can he give love.

We had our last therapy session yesterday to tell her the news. My eyes were almost swollen shut. I got no sleep. And J wasn't doesn't well either. He opened the discussion with his choice. She asked if he meant he needed longer separation or if this was "divorce." He said he has to say divorce because it's better for both of us not to live in limbo. Our living and financial situations will stay the same for however long I need because I don't need any changes while I grieve.

Our therapist said it's difficult to cut all contact with someone who's been your best friend for 7 years but knows if I continue to lean on him, I won't heal. She said to not punish myself if I do call him, which I have twice, while having a panic attack. One of our cats was missing, during all this. He told me I can contact him anytime, but the therapist said he's already attached so contact with me wouldn't damage him. He wants my friendship but he's sees me in those terms. I'm still in love with him. I still want him. I still love him.

I have to detach even though it feels like it's physically killing me. I miss him more than I thought possible. I feel compassion for where he is and I'm not angry. I just feel like someone died and mini-deaths are all around me.

I see my indiv. therapist and he is going to say, "I'll told you so."


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Don't beat yourself up Wren. I know it is hard. I'm there with you, but you are right, you have to detach. Sometimes anger can help you do that. Don't be afraid of anger, just don't let it linger. You've got to think about yourself. To heal yourself.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren - it does hurt like hell - physically and every other way - FA is right the anger will help when you can allow yourself to feel it - my counsellor helped me to understand that my pain was masked anger...but this is all theory at this stage - right now you are just running on pure raw emotion - let it out however you can.......


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I just don't feel any anger. I haven't since June. I feel compassion for J. And I love him, want him happy and healthy, even without me. So I just don't find myself mad about anything. I just feel grief. It's as if the world is a tomb, full of his relics. Everything is J. I can't escape the pain.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yep I know W I know ..............it sucks though


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Then pack away the relics. It will be painful -- I'm doing that now - but it will start you moving forward. Which is what you need to do. If you wallow, you stay down.

As Morgan Freeman's character in Shawshenk Redemption said "Get busy living, or get busy dying".


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Your relationship is dying or dead....you have every reason to grieve and feel like crap. 

This sucks as my H and I have similiar circumstances to yours. They are searching and trying to "find" themselves. They are scared as well but they don't want or need our help. That's ok.

We need our help. If the relationship was firm and steady without major flaws (affair, adultery,addition) then all likelihood he will at least want to step back into the relationship (future). It may take years though. That is my belief and holds for many relationships of this caliber. 

However, in the meantime, know that sadness, disappointment, etc are apart of the course and natural. Your preexisting conditions are triggered by this crisis. Take some time to relax your mind...listen to some music, get some exercise, reach out to friends or family, read an uplifting book. Whatever you can do to distract yourself from your thinking.

I know it's tough. I'm rootin for ya!!


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## Waiting Patiently (Aug 31, 2009)

Wren- I feel your pain. if possible, immediately make a list of everyone and anyone you know with phone numbers and, if you have done so, consider finding the courage to call and tell them what you are going through, that you need friendship and companionship like never before. Ask if you can join their families for dinner or an outing. Make lots of contacts and pretty soon you will not be home alone much. It sounds like you may have some trouble getting out at the moment, if it is severe, perhaps some meds would help for awhile to help get youi on your way. Whatever you do, get out of the house and spend time with friends or other people. This is working for me, albeit slowly.


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## Waiting Patiently (Aug 31, 2009)

Wren- I know this may be hard, but if you have not done so, take the photos down, remove the relics, do not call him unless necessary. It will be super painful for a few weeks but you will begin to feel better. You are a strong, able, committed and resourceful woman who deserves so much more than he is giving or able to give. Do not go down on the Titantic with him. As ahusband myself, I firmly believe by completely cutting him off and out, you have the best shot to stabilize your emotional health and vicariously, perhaps getting him to se what he is missing. This is so hard to see but it is probably your best hope in my judgment. I believe my wife has a mental illness (see my other posts) and is completely lost right now living at her mothers and giving nothing to our marriage. I am starting to truly pull away from her and I am seeing some flickers of hope as she is offering to do me favors to make my life easier and is much friendlier and open when we talk, even laughing. Consider getting the books by Michele Weiner Davis- Divorce Busting and divorce Remedy. They contain lots of great tips of what to do, and most importantly, what not to do. remember: we can't always make something happen or better; but we can avoid making the situation worse. Here, I would venture a guess that being away from counseling and letting him be alone may do the possibility for reconnection some good. Is he seeing anyone else? If not, I think the chances he will start to miss you increase when you dissapear off his radar!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I told my family and friends. It was a shock because only my parents knew of the separation. My mom reached out to J and told him she loved him no matter what. She said he was touched beyond words with her compassion.

I saw my indiv. therapist yesterday and told him the news. He said he was sorry and began his matter of fact routine approach. I went numb. He's helpful in a lot of ways but there isn't a fit for grief counseling. I talked with him about my need to see my former couples' counselor for this phase and he agreed. So I have an appt. with her on monday.

Yesterday was the first day that I didn't cry continuously. It was also the first day since Sunday that I didn't contact J. Yes, it had only been a few days but at this point, I live minute by minute. I stayed busy thanks to a neighbor. 

Last night, I had a meeting. J and I began the process, last year, to have our neighborhood recognized as a local historic district as we are both into historic preservation. I walked over with my neighbors and didn't even think he would be there. When I saw the car in the parking lot, I broke down. I blotted myself in the bathroom and walked in the room. My neighbors sat beside him- two friends between J and myself. I couldn't look at him and we never even spoke. My neighbors said he leaned over, as to speak, when I sat down but I didn't look over. I was afraid if we locked eyes I would lose it. But of course, I took it personally that we never spoke, even though I was partly responsible for it.

He looked good. He seemed fine. He spoke strongly. And I felt like the weakest, pathetic piece of abandoned crap in the world. When I walked home, I cried. I can't explain how much I miss my best friend. But I haven't contacted him. No, it doesn't get easier each day- maybe after weeks have gone by. I can only think in terms of the now.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren - that is huge - having to see him like that - and yet you handled it - I know you don't feel like getting any medals at this point in your life - but that deserves a big one ....for now feeling better isn't something you should even put any pressure on yourself to feel...as you said just day by day - minute by minute if that's all you can manage - I'm not a great one for biblical analogies but I really did think (and still do on bad days now) all I want is enough manna from heaven to get me through today....


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren that would have been incredible to see him so sooner after his words were spoken. I can't imagine not crying. You were strong!

You are right with thinking minute by minute. Let it out and do what makes you feel good. Let us know how you are doing. We are all here for you!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I can't find any place or person of comfort. My neighbor that gave me much compassion and care in June, when J and I first separated may just be tired of dealing with me. Since I told her of the news, I've sought out her companionship and shoulder a lot. We often spent time together, prior to my crises. Because I'm not close with family, J was my best friend, and none of my girlfriends understand/empathize- my neighbors are my family.
She only makes comments like, "move on," "you're stronger than this," etc. I feel shamed and irritated. So the one place and person that brought me comfort before isn't available.

I feel abandoned all over again.

There are so many things I can put away in my home. Everything reminds me of him. This was our first house together. We bought everything together. So home doesn't feel like home anymore. 

I'm a wreck you guys. I have been through a lot in my life. I'm tough. But there are moments that I really wish would be my last, because it aches unlike anything I've known.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Keep searching. You need someone close by. I know the pain of being in the family home. I'm packing it up now. I can't take it anymore. It is hard, but know you will get through this. You can survive.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

FA, I've reached out to everyone I know. No one has shown up.
I think most people are shocked because they consider J to be my great love of my life. I'm sure it has shaken their foundations, because if this can happen to us, it can happen to anyone.

I'm alone in this. And last night proved to me that not even J can comfort me, even temporarily. It'll only hurt more if I take the bandaid off slowly, right?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren that sounds so familiar - people don't 'get' it and they project the problem onto themselves and so can't go there with you...they will be going through shock - but they will 'come around' 
is there a chance they also might think it is not as serious as it is?

you know 'all marriages have problems sort of thing"?

we are here for you - I am sorry I can't make you a cup of tea and just sit with you


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes...I know you've reached out. Sometimes people don't know what to say or how to say it.

Invite a friend out to lunch or dinner for tomorrow. Get dressed up and go OUT! Even though you reached out...they may not know what to do. Tell them that you need to keep yourself busy and/or distracted....ask them to invite you to things. These were my exact words to my friends (both new and old).

Not sure if you exercise...if not...do it! I've never been a diehard exercise person but now I am getting into it. Do something. It's good for the anxiety/depression and endorphins etc. 

It all sucks. My H was my HS sweetheart. He doesn't make sense now after 24 years. We love each other dearly but for some reason he needs something "more." He doesn't know what the "more" is though? 

It's not that he won't ever come back Wren. He's confused and all. In the meantime, make yourself as attractive as possible. Get involved, serve others (voluteer), new hairstyle, something....That will be very attractive to him and good for you.

We are with you all the way!!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Always love CW's advice - practical 
and I had to and still do have to tell people what I need - 
I called my sisters one day and told them that I needed them to come and clean the house for me - 

they did - 

I think CW is correct - you need to give people direction - tell them how they can help -

they literally feel helpless - they see you suffering they want you to feel better - they can't relate (haven't been through it) and so THEY flounder .....


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

K: Hey...I might do that...I need someone to clean the house also!! haha 

It's true..it's like when someone dies and people say "call if you need something." They really mean it. People don't know if they are bugging you too much or not enough or if you may be offended by this or that! It's difficult.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

I agree with what everyone has posted. 

I had a lot of people who just chalked my issues to the fact that everyone goes through a rough patch. I knew it was no rough patch. 

I made plans this weekend to go out with a longtime friend that I don't get to see very often. I am worried that she'll feel awkward around me (not knowing what to say or do); however I keep telling myself that she has known me forever and knows the real me. 

I also have tentative plans to make a road trip to see some of my friends from college. They've also been supportive. 

Just keep yourself busy. Pick up a new hobby and take this opportunity to make new friends. I know I need more friends!

You always have us online friends. We understand what you're going through!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thank you all for the good advice. I will definitely try my best to take it and see where life takes me. I'm so grateful that I have your support.

I witnessed my first casualty yesterday. My oldest niece is the light of my life. She's a very intuitive, feeling, and mature 7 year old. She's only known life with J and he/is her first crush. She called me because my parents told her about J's decision. She kept saying, "I'm so sorry. I know your heart hurts. Mine hurts. I love him." I told her it's ok to love him because I still do, too. Her daddy ( my brother ) moved out of their family home a couple of months ago so she has been dealing with a lot of loss herself.

I cried so hard that I couldn't form words when my mom took the phone from her. Not that guilt should affect any decisions but I really think most people do not realize the domino effect.

Yesterday was the first day that I didn't see or contact J. I have two modes- panic attack/severe crying or numbness. During the numb moments, I can accomplish every day tasks. I look forward to my first grief counseling session on Monday.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

No they don't Wren, no they don't. I get moments like that with my son. His birthday is this weekend and right now I don't want to be in the same room with my W. Anyway, Saturday evening after his sports games my parents and I are taking him to a Japanese steak house to eat -- one of his favorites. He and I played Monopoly for a while last night and I said I think Papa John and Grandma Kay are going to come down Saturday afternoon and maybe we can all play Monopoly. A big game. And he said and after that we can go to the Japanese steakhouse - all of us and Mom. And I'm like I don't think so buddy, who told you that. Oh, mom did. Well mom hasn't been invited by anyone. 

But anyway - it just breaks your heart. Even though we haven't told him what is going to happen, he knows. And he is starting to want to bring us back together - I can tell. So perceptive on his part but it kills me.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren,
I also get where you are coming from. My H was adored by my family and extended family as well - they all go through loss and shock as well. He was a lovely uncle to my many nieces and nephews - it is like an earthquake - has so many effects - 

I am glad that you can at least get some everyday stuff done - I found writing lists and just following them was good - 

are you managing to eat or exercise?

took me ages to get to these but the exercise has been really worthwhile -


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I feel for those with children going through such pain.

I'm just not able to eat alone right now. So if I share a meal, I'm ok. Other than my gardening, I don't have the energy for exercise or my yoga. I'm an insomniac during good times and sleep is even more elusive these days. My doctor won't prescribe any sleep medication due to my past suicidal tendencies. I'm already on 60mg of cymbalta and .5 mg xanax (3 times daily) so any more medication wouldn't be wise.

Minute by minute is all I can manage.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

shared meals and garden sound pretty good to me...and yes keep off those sleeping meds - they did my head in -
big hugs to you


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

wren: That a good mantra "one day at a time." 

Do what you can. Force what you can. Make plans for this weekend with someone. You make the call. I know you don't feel like socializing but a 1-1 meeting with someone supportive is worth a million.

I know we keep saying this to you but staying inside and by yourself day to day isn't good. It's what you WANT to do but isn't good.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

My curse? Intense crises and panic attacks trigger agoraphobia.
I made lunch plans tomorrow with my favorite cousin that also happens to be a great friend. I hope I don't have an attack. I warned her I would be medicated.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

wren said:


> My curse? Intense crises and panic attacks trigger agoraphobia.
> I made lunch plans tomorrow with my favorite cousin that also happens to be a great friend. I hope I don't have an attack. I warned her I would be medicated.


As she is a friend and cousin -she will jsut want to see YOU - medicated /panicked whatever - she will be feeling honoured that you are trusting yourself with her - keep on rememebring that you are LOVED and this love will get you through


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Try not to think about the panic attacks occuring or hoping that they will NOT occur. It can end up being a self fulfilling prophesy.

When you walk outside and go to lunch...psych yourself up in a positive way. Know that you are strong ass woman. You can do anything. You H is being an ass. It not your f__ckin problem anymore. You are only in control of your actions. You are going to show your H and your family how a woman takes control. Keep repeating these words. Make note cards and read them if you have to....no negative thoughts. Replace them with positive.

It all sucks. No doubt. Hang in there.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

wren, Try to think back to a time when you felt like YOU. When you felt emotionally strong and confident. Try to relive those feelings and hang onto them. For me, I sometimes have to go back to my high school days to remember who and what I am/was.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I received a short, highly detached letter in the mail from J yesterday. We decided for personal matters, letter-writing would be allowed. It read like a stranger that has absolutely zero emotional availability/responsibility for me or the situation. After talking to three different people, I called him. I don't care about should or shouldn'ts at this point. I needed to call him and have my voice heard. We spoke for three hours.

I don't know him anymore. I finally realized how dead he sounds. He speaks like an unfeeling zombie. He said his decision has not sunk in but his gut says to end the relationship. The interesting thing about that comment is that I really believe he is self-detached so what gut reaction can there be? I think he is a scared, emotionally-stunted, confused, isolated boy that believes he will experience a life-changing epiphany if he sheds all responsibilities. He hasn't even shared the news with anyone! My mom is the only person he's communicated with due to her initiation. He can say I love yous to my family members but shares no emotional language with his "best friend" and partner of 7 years. It blows my mind.

His ideal outcome would be-" you to be ok. you stay in the home with your garden and cats. you to be financially secure and independent. and we be friends, hang out, talk regularly."

I sat there for a few minutes, unable to say anything. Then I asked why he wanted to be friends. He said that he really misses me. He wants to be able to share things with me. The no contact rule hurts him because he loses his best friend. So I say," we're friends. what happens when you meet someone and want a relationship. what are we supposed to do then?" He said he doesn't ever want a relationship so it would be a non-issue. "If I can't make it work with you, I'm not supposed to be in a relationship. I just want to work on me and my stuff. If my ideal situation comes true, I can worry about me and my problems."

WTF? So, he wants the benefits of me in his life with no emotional responsibility? Is that what I hear?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren, he is depressed and emotionally detached. I have been where he has been and it sucks. You're dead inside and have nothing to grasp. I never got to the point of my H and your H but I totally get it.

Realistically...do you think if you divorce that neither one of you will meet someone and begin a relationship....ever? Of course not. The odds are that one or both of you, in maybe the far off future will have another relationship. People are naturally drawn to being a couple. He isn't thinking right at this point.

You have to put it in your mind that he's confused and grasping at straws. If he has to divorce you..so be it. Maybe he can sort things out in the meantime or after the divorce. Maybe he comes back. Who knows. 

He isn't capable of emotional responsibility right now. He is utterly overwhelmed. There is nothing that you can do.

As far as the friendship thing...do what is good for YOU. I keep saying these things but it's true. Dont' do it for him or to keep your marriage alive. Either it is or isn't. 

Expand your horizons in the meantime. Work like a dog to get where you want for yourself. 

It's good that he's able to still talk to you but you'll end up being his counselor and not his wife.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

I think your H needs to find some male friends to talk to. The stuff about not ever wanting a relationship is total B.S. and he's probably saying it to not upset you. It's emotional dishonesty and manipulation.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren 
I so agree with what CW and D8zed have said - I spent 4 months as my H's counsellor instead of his partner........it was extremely damaging for me -

he isn't thinking of you and your needs (he_ can't _but who cares why)

but you are still thinking of his ....(because you are not as messed up as he is - bet it doesn't feel like that but it's true) 

stick CW's advice up on a wall in your kitchen and keep on reading it -

you will get there when and how you can - but what she is saying - that is where you are going - 

I was YOU I kept on talking - 'understanding' -

I got the "I am never going to have a relationship again" line as well...

I got the "I just want you to be happy" line as well

of course they want to be friends -

but right now he isn't your friend - 

I just honestly wish that I would have joined this forum back then - talk here instead of to him -

it feels wrong wrong wrong to talk _about _someone instead of _to _someone - but for now that will protect you and give you some healing time


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

You know, I just realize something Wren, your H and my W sound a like. She has said some of the same things -- I don't want another relationship -- of course we all know that was a load of garbage. I just want to be happy. Kind of scary. I hadn't thought about that.

But you hang in there. And listen to CW, D8zed, and K. They are offerring up good advice. I can't add more to it.

Listen to K. Take CW's advice, write down on a note card and put it where you can see it and chant it like a mantra a couple of times a day. Over time it will replace the bad thoughts, with better thoughts.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

My mom visited yesterday, out of concern, and we passed J as we were driving to the store. Mom decided she wanted to talk to both of us. So I called him and he came over.

It was pure agony, watching my mom cry as she asked the hard questions. She asked him if he loved me and J said no. ( for months it's been that he didn't feel it but thought it was buried under all his unresolved emotions, in which our therapists agreed). Neither of us can wrap our brains around love disappearing in a matter of months. It was very hard to watch them both cry.

J can cry and express love, regret, and pain in regards to everyone but me. With me, he is blank. It was surreal watching him suffer because of how this affects the family yet he feels nothing ( or appears so ) when I'm in desolation.

After my mom left, he didn't want to leave. We sat there in silence for a couple of hours, with a word muttered every now and again. He went to our bedroom and got his winter clothes. He left them here when he moved because he would "be back before cold weather."

My mom thinks he is running and doesn't know what truth is anymore. I don't know what to think. And I'm thankful that I'm numb today because yesterday was one of the painfully worst days of my life.

Finally, after yawning, I told J to go. He asked if he could hug me and I let him. I stood out in the chilly night, watched the car pull away, and before I knew it, I'd stood out there for a half hour in a trance.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren that sounds like an extremely painful scene. It is lovely of your mom to try and help sort things out - everyone feels so helpless. 

It may be little consolation but I have exactly the same feelings of shock when I see that my H is emotionally detached _only_ when it comes to me - 

Perhaps someone on here will be able to explain this part of things a little better -

is it a mask? are they protecting themselves? or is this where they are ?

the love isn't 'gone'....but still they can do this to us...


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I don't know Wren and K, but I barely even acknowledge my wife's presence now. Saw her today at soccer and baseball games. Actually a little cold here today and she was going to get coffee after the soccer game and before the baseball game and actually asked if I wanted some hot chocolate. She acutally said, hey honey, I mean My name, do want some. First time she has slipped up like that ever.

Couldn't believe she even offerred. I said thanks when I got it and then just walked away.

So I guess I'm becoming like your H's with regards to her -- totally detached..............


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

FA _your_ detachment I understand - it is self protection - she has hurt you terribly 

you must have felt something when she slipped with the name - I cried for hours after my H did this one day.......

I guess all detachment is self-protection - I know that J doesn't want to let himself get 'close' to me again ....

he (like W's H) must also be protecting himself. We get confused because we_ feel _like we have done nothing to hurt this person. But still they hurt.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren: You have to believe that you are/were the closest person to him. He is taking whatever grief/anger/resentment out on you. He doesn't know what to do with his feelings. He's in pain. 

When you mom and you asked him over...you cornered him. He wasn't going to avoid you. Of course he is telling your mom that he doesn't love you. It's easier to run, for all of the parties involved, if he says this...

I would just leave him alone. Really alone. It's torture for you to see him and get a hug and listen to him bemoan your relationship. I was exactly like you...how many times do you need to be slapped in the face with "I am no longer in love with you. I don't feel attracted to you." It makes me vomit anymore. I quit asking "why?"


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Oh no! Not the friendship crap again. My H was all over being friends after the divorce (he still would like to be friends if I were okay with it). I laughed when you asked him what would happen to your friendship if one or the other started dating. I almost though he would say, "we can double date."

My H is also emotionless. I could tell early on that he had checked out of our relationship. He keeps telling me that he respects me and cares deeply for me but his actions show that he could really care less. 

The only reason they bring up the friend thing is to ease their guilt, in my opinion. 

I agree you need to leave him alone and do what's best for you. Let him get a grasp of what a divorce is really like.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Since the conversation with my mom, I'd not talked to J. I didn't contact all weekend which was a first for me. 

Today, he called. He said he needed to come by the house and get more winter clothes. I said that's fine. Then he wanted to chit-chat and I had nothing to say.

I was supposed to be gone by the time he got here but my ride bailed on me. So he came in and tried to asked how I'd been, blah, blah. As soon as I saw him, I became angry because I was doing okay alone today. It was the first day I'd spent the entire day alone. Seeing him brought such anxiety, hence the anger.

Because my ride bailed, he offered to drive me to my parents' home, for the usual sunday dinner. I accepted and he told me that he attempted to call his family and therapist. No one answered nor returned his call yet. I wondered then if that's why he really called me.

When we got there, he asked if I wanted him to stay. I said," don't you think that will be uncomfortable?" His response, " Sometimes we do things for others even though it's uncomfortable."

Hello, irony. His feelings were hurt when I said,"for once, do what you want and don't look to me for a right answer."

I hope he reads "No More Mister Nice Guy." I enjoyed the book. I gave it to him this afternoon.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Even though it was anxiety provoking time, you did VERY well with the presence of your H. You didn't encourage chit chat and had an "i don't care" attitude. Good to make him uncomfortable. 
I can't believe he asked if you wanted him to stay! Grrrr.

What's up with these guys? What do they want from us. Have you both always leaned on each other for your emotional needs? Or did you have others that you could also vent to?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Honestly? We were best friends. Any friends he gained were my friends first. He has male work friends but I don't think they share much more than sports and work talk.

He's isolated himself since the depression and therapy (a year or so). Since the separation? He's talked to his family once.

I have a couple of friends that I can vent to- but they aren't available any longer. I guess they've had their fill.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Your H kind of reminds me of mine. After my H gave me the divorce papers he asked me if it was okay if he didn't go to marriage counseling with me. You should have seen the confused look on my face!

My thoughts are with you Wren.

I wish we all lived closer so we could hang out on Friday/Saturday nights and not sit at home feeling sad and lonely.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren: It sounds VERY familiar to my situation early on in the separation. He doesn't really talk to guy friends. His one best friend knows more than the others but my H keeps to himself. He really didn't have much of a social life. 

Two months after the separation he said he wanted to proceed with the divorce. He said "believe it or not I've been having some fun." I said "oh really me too." He said "two weeks ago I went out to dinner with Matt and some guys and we had a blast! In my mind I was thinking "TWO WEEKS AGO YOU HAD FUN....over DINNER!" Whooopppee! I had fun 2 days ago and it wasn't my first fun day!

I thought how sad it was that for 2 months that was all he could say. It showed how low he was...he was grasping at straws. Dinner with the guys was all he could muster. Sad.

Wren...I know it's difficult when everything is directed towards you and you are told that the marriage is the problem. I know that I wasn't perfect but the marriage isn't the problem...he is the problem. He just doesn't get it. No matter how much I tell him to focus on himself. He can't. 

You H is better off than my H. At least your H is getting help. He's hurting and needs space....just give him that. He may come around if you don't push at all. He will self evaluate and that's difficult for these type of men. 

Focus all that you can to work on your issue and boost your confidence during this difficult time. It will be time well spent!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

These guys have to take the cake...
mls - that is like a scene from a comedy - "here's the divorce papers - do you still want to get realtionship counselling????" 
did slapping him cross your mind

and wren - the family dinner - oh that would have been so much FUN! but of course it would have been a selfless act - NG to the bitter end.


You are doing good - I literally speant 100s our hours in 'therapy' sessions with my Narcissistic NG - what a waste of my emotional energy - if only I would have logged on here sooner i would have bee set straight!

How did we all manage to find these guys? and lose them at the same time ?????


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I wish we were all close, mls. We could take our support group to an even higher level! Outside of you guys, no one understands or cares to invest enough to even try to understand. I make myself socialize as much as possible. But other than that, I have no support outside of my therapy. It's very lonely.

I don't know if I'm detaching or numb. But I feel pity for J. I've never seen him so disconnected to himself, his feelings, his thoughts, etc. He walks around with this vacant look on his face. I really hope he starts living with some honesty soon or I fear he will become even more self-destructive to avoid feeling altogether. I am not trying to make myself feel better by saying this- he has no clue what he's done or doing. He hasn't even faced the choice or consequences. 

What makes me sad this morning? That no contact feels better than seeing and talking to him daily.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

Question for wren, knortoh, and CW:

So it sounds like you three are/were married to some form of a "nice guy" and you've had a chance to take a step back and look at your H's from a new perspective.

If you could go back in time, would you still marry your H if you knew he was a "nice guy"?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

d8zed, thank you so much for telling me about the book. I read it cover to cover!

I don't know if I would choose J again because right now, I feel like everything was/is a lie.

Ok, with honesty, yes. I would do it all over again.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

I had a feeling you'd say that, wren, because of all the times you've said he was your best friend. That concept is so foreign to me and my relationship. Not sure if that's good or bad.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I don't know if it's good or bad, either. I know I'm grieving the loss of my best friend along with the loss of the relationship. 
So do you think part of the problem for you two was there was no friendship? No real intimacy?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

D8zed said:


> Question for wren, knortoh, and CW:
> 
> So it sounds like you three are/were married to some form of a "nice guy" and you've had a chance to take a step back and look at your H's from a new perspective.
> 
> If you could go back in time, would you still marry your H if you knew he was a "nice guy"?


D8zed you do like the tricky questions....
but the answer will be yes - people are more than their personality types - do I love the fact that my H was emotionally dishonest? No I hate it...he has broken my heart. 

But he has a whole heap of other pretty good stuff going on for him....I still believe him to be a very good very damaged person...

will I be marrying another NG?

don't think so !


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes. I would have married him all over again. We all have flaws. 

Like K...I will look for a nice person that can express himself in a healthy way.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

wren said:


> So do you think part of the problem for you two was there was no friendship? No real intimacy?


Yeah, I believe that's part of it. The relationship was not built on a solid foundation. And how could it have been if we only dated for 4 months before deciding to marry. That's all on me.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Therapy was good today. I was able to mine through some confusion. I told her about J's "no, I don't love her," that he said to my mom. She assured me that it's further proof of his disconnect and lack of self-awareness as a means to block his pain and anger. Since she's worked with us both, she admitted she questioned his commitment to the process from the beginning. I had the same feeling but due to my insecurities, I didn't trust my gut. I talked to her about No More Mr. Nice Guy and she agreed with his NG tendencies and lack of emotional honesty. 

She asked me if I would take him back right now? I said no. I don't trust him. I feel better with no contact. She was relieved because she believes that J has no concept of just how much work he really needs to do to become healthy. I agree. I think he's an emotional zombie that's incapable of feeling the consequences to his choice. I think he's a little boy that's fooled himself into thinking the relationship prevented him from being happy. Now that my thoughts have been validated by a professional that's worked with him, I have more confidence in myself.

The session was not a J-bashing hour. But an impartial voice was welcomed. My loved ones can only ask what I did or what went wrong. I was questioning my self in terms of whether I was blind, deaf, or dumb throughout the last few months. I'm glad to know I'm not. I am so damn sad that my best friend is no longer my friend. I am so damn sad that his past has dictated my present and future. I am so damn sad that seven years have gone by with my heart believing he loved me.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It sounds like a good and validating session. They always make me feel better.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren he did love you - I am not sure what is going on in his mind but he did love you.....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Maybe he never did love me, K. Maybe he's not capable of love. Maybe he thought he loved me but it was merely infatuation which is why it was so easy to dismiss as it waned.

I don't know the answers. I doubt he knows the answers.

He sent me a list of I'm sorry's. I wrote an extensive list for him a couple of months ago in hopes of healing the barrier. I wanted him to understand that I take responsbility for my part and I am regretful. His list was short and consisted of things like:
I'm sorry I didn't kiss you more.
I'm sorry I wasn't assertive.
I'm sorry I abandoned you emotionally.

I want to believe him. But I don't. I think he's attempting to assuage his guilt and isn't capable of feeling anything in regards to me or us.

I have to get through the holidays and then we'll sort out of details of how I will lose my house, find home for my cats, and be forced to start all over again with nothing. Happy new year to me! /pity-party


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

What can you say..he may not only be uncapable of loving you the way you deserve. He may be uncapable of loving anyone deeply. However, if he is truly working out his issues. Then there may be a time where he figures it out.

It's sad for our guys to not have that deep love...Maybe it was never there, maybe they lost it, or maybe it's hidden. I pray for all of them to rediscover or uncover what gives meaning to all life.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Sorry Wren but why is he sending you a sorry list now?
I tend to agree it is about his guilt...
not helpful now -
a list of regrets it sounds like - 
well sorry to be blunt but at this stage who gives a sh**?

just on the practical things -

don't beat yourself up about feeling 'victimised' about them -

they are real world problems that require real world solutions - and I do feel sorry for you having to face them - 
and if you are like me you may end up having to process some bitterness that his emotional problems result in such worldly problems for you....
(as my friend said - he's having the mid-life crisis and you have to pay) 

just because you feel victimised doesn't mean that you are having a pity party..nor does it mean that you are a victim - you are seeking help (as per the name of your posts) victims don't seek help- 

and I still think he loved you !

and hope you don't take offence at the blunt tone in my post...it comes from a positive place 

I believe one day we will work through 'releasing' these guys and moving on ...


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I am not an angry person. It takes quite a bit to make me angry.
Well, I'm full of rage. And to say that I'm uncomfortable with the rage is a grand understatement.

I called J tonight with the intention of letting him know just how angry I am. I didn't care if there was discomfort. For once, I didn't feel like I have anything to lose. I felt energized and less like a victim than I have in months.

What did I do at the end of the conversation? Cry.

I'm so emotionally and physically exhausted. I'm sick of feeling.
I almost envy J's ability to feel nothing.

I wish I hated him.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Let it out - anger, tears, rage - it' all good at this stage -


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

K, I know I need to let it out. Seems fruitless to me. I know my release of emotions is needed in my healing. But it won't change the situation. I am a fool. Not only do I not trust J, I no longer trust myself. I bought into the "I'd never abandon you. I'd never lie to you. I'd never leave you like everyone else."

People change. Feelings change. I don't think he should stay with me out of obligation or guilt. But feel something! Anything!He sat there on the phone as I ranted with no reaction. Who is this man?

He said his Dr. lowered all his medication because of the flatline feeling and zombie comments. He said his therapist was worried he's stuck, disconnected, and wonders if it was a good idea to make such a decision when he's not connected to himself or me. J still thinks his choice was made at the right time and is the right choice for him.

He told his family. His father told him he was disappointed in him for not honoring his commitment. His sister said the same thing. His mother blew sunshine up his ass with " don't be so hard yourself, you're a good person BS." He comes from a family that doesn't discuss "bad" feelings.

Have any of them contacted me? Hell no. I'm discarded once again.

Does anyone give a f*ck about me and how I'm feeling?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

W - he sounds like he is a mess and that he is getting some good advice from his therpaist etc...but they don't always follow it. My H's counsellor told him to wait at least a year and he was out two weeks later....

I know that you don't do anger very well - but as you yourself acknowledge you are full of anger at the moment...my counsellor helped me to understand that the pain I felt was repressed anger - once I began to work through the anger I began to lose the pain - (I am just talking physical pain not emotional pain).............

that is why it helps you heal.

that is one issue 

the other is that expressing your anger to him is fine - expecting him to acknowledge that anger and 'react' in a feeling way just leads to disapointment -

he can't/ won't - can only feel 'his' pain ...

that's why here is a good place to vent some of your more 'polite' anger...I have some ugly stuff that would just be ********** 

W - you are just processing - going round and going over ....
as you work through you'll get back closer to yourself - 
and more detached from him...

a mantra I chanted to myself (courtesy of my sister) was 

it's his crap.....
it's his crap.....
it's his crap.....
it's his crap.....

when I chanted it I didn't know what it meant - 

I knew it was true but I didn't believe it - now I believe it...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Great little chant-K!

If he's a zombie with the meds...he truly isn't feeling much. Things just lie around and sit.

I saw my counselor today and came to the conclusion how sad of a man my H is...I feel bad for him as a human being. Maybe, at some point, you will do the same. 

For now...deal with the well deserved anger.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

CW I was talking to a mum of one of my son's friends whose husband left her 10 years ago when she was 8 months pregnant..and she was saying exactly that -

she thought pity was a good palce to get to with them - 

and useful for helping you 'release' them..

my mum who is wise always maintains she feels sorry for him -

and it's like your gyno says CW - same thing...

but W you don't 'get' to this place of 'pity' overnight - 

for now stay with the anger


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

No...you are right K. The death of a marriage is a process. Anger is a part.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

W, you need to let it out. It does make you feel better and move through the process. You've got to take charge of your feelings, because you know he isn't going to do anything right now.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I guess the KEY is not getting stuck on the anger part..."moving through" as FA said.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

wren said:


> He told his family. His father told him he was disappointed in him for not honoring his commitment. His sister said the same thing. His mother blew sunshine up his ass with " don't be so hard yourself, you're a good person BS." He comes from a family that doesn't discuss "bad" feelings.


Do we have the same MIL? My in-laws haven't contacted me since this all blew up and I'm glad they haven't. It would probably get ugly. 

My H is an only child and his parents thinks he walks on water and turns the earth! There is no way his parents would tell him to actually work on our marriage. If baby is unhappy, do what makes you happy, that's their mantra. 

In fact, when my H first brought up the divorce idea he said that his parents told him it would be easy for us to get a divorce since we don't have kids and much money.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thank you all for reminding me that anger is natural and I'm not a horrible person for feeling this way. I'm trying to allow myself to sit with my anger, even though it feels terribly uncomfortable. I think I fear becoming stuck. It's exhausting being so mad. I feel like I've been through war.

I thought I was moving through it but then J contacted me. He's not initiated contact since his decision as agreed upon. I've broken that rule several times but he hasn't. So I never expected to hear from him, especially after I gave him a loud ear full last night.

He asked if he could come over to "check his email." We'd just discussed (last night) how I would forward his emails to his work address until he set up outlook on his laptop or he could check it through the webmail option. He said, "Oh, that's right. I forgot."
I asked him why he would choose today to ask if he could come over, after the pain and anger I clearly displayed last night. "Well, I thought about checking my email. And that maybe you would need to talk in person." So I asked him, "did you want to come over to check email or to talk?" "Well...both. I could check email, see you, and you could talk to me in person if you needed to."

What's this about? Is this just more emotional dishonesty? Guilt? Manipulation? Does he feel me pulling away?

I told him I wasn't interested in talking because I'm very angry. I said I can't see him. He sounded pleasantly detached as usual with no hint of pain or anger in his voice. He proclaimed he was feeling ok because he was doing a lot of good work on himself in the last few days. He thanked me again for the "No More Mr. Nice Guy".

I got off the phone, fuming and preceded to cry to my neighbors (ugly cry, barely breathing, snot-running) for a half hour. And then I got angry again.

I feel insane.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Your H isn't as detached as you think. He may not be emotionally honest but he's still dependent on you for some of his emotional needs. I'm not sure what they are...maybe you listen to him, maybe you were the go-to girl with the answers, maybe he's lonely. There is something in it for him or he wouldn't be suggesting this.

I would be tempted at this point to say..."no thanks, I'd rather you come over when you are ready to restore the relationship. If you can't do that then why bother?" He's not doing you any favors...you are mess every time he contacts you. 

Sometimes, we hope for the "breakthrough." I do all of the time, but my hope has lessened some. I believe, when they are ready for a breakthrough they will NOT wait and be polite. They will show up on our doorstep when we least expect it. Remember, they are thinking of themselves for the most part.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren, I agree with CW - not as detached as you think but importantly ONLY thinking of himself..and it is NG stuff - "you might need to talk to me" sorry it is CRAP...only recognise it 'cause I been there...one day you will be able to see him with the anger in check - not now - not while you are so raw.....
your neighbours sound nice!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I think he hopes that if he's "there for me," he won't look like the bad guy. He lessens his guilt and gets his best friend back.
Maybe a few months ago I would happily lap up his crumbs. No more. I am exhausted from the pain and anger. I can't handle any more of his crap. He wants to be alone, with no emotional responsbility. He wants to work on himself with no investment in a relationship. Then do it and leave me alone!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I think you are right Wren. If this is too painful...let him be. Tell him outright.."you are going to need to stay away." Or whatever you need to say. They are under the illusion that they will be best friends with us.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren - you are sounding clear and strong on this - so clear and strong - you have no children and so there is no reason to continue to see him at all - it hurts like hell and maybe you'll 'need' to see him from time to time to make things a bit more 'organic' but you are right - alone is a pretty clear way of thinking on his part.....
give those cats a pat for me!


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Wren, tell him exactly that last line. Remember if he is NG he has a need for approval and acceptance from everyone. Was he ever concerned that he hurt someone's feelings for trivial things? It is scary how much that can pervade one's personality. It is like acceptance by others is all important over being yourself. That is the "I don't want to be the bad guy" so don't do anything part.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Oh Wren. I feel for you. 

I'm am also going through what seems to be a continuous loop of deep sadness and then bad anger. Today was anger. Two days ago was sadness. 

Some days I want to call him every name in the book and punch him in the face. Other days I just miss him and us tremendously. 

I totally agree and I wish I could be as "checked out" as my H instead of riding this roller coaster of emotions. It is mentally exhausting.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

He contacted me again yesterday in response to an email his mother sent us. He was angry that his mother commented that it takes two for a relationship to work or not work. He felt unheard when he told her "he made the decision solely."

I don't know why he contacted me again. He's not initiated up until I became angry, of all times.

I'm back to depression. Just the little effort it takes to make coffee seems overwhelming. I want to get off this rollercoaster.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Who else is he going to vent to? 

That's why they won't quit contacting...they haven't REALLY disconnected.

I'm so annoyed with all of this.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Just don't ler him vent to you - I so let my H do that and it was such a mistake...


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes K, you were being the counselor. Wren you can't do that. You have to let him figure it out on his own. If you allow him to talk about that stuff if will only give him a safe place. For your sake, don't. If he wants to be on his own, then he needs to be on his own with no crutch. Right now I don't speak to my w except with regards to my Harrison. That is it. Nothing else for me.

She wanted it, she got it.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm not going to be used. But that doesn't save me from the pain I feel now. Friday nights are the hardest. We used to grill out, light our torches, have drinks, and laugh late into the night every friday. I miss him so much.

I've attempted to replace rituals on the days I know I'll be triggered. But the pain and depression isn't lessening. I forced myself to get out today. And I ate dinner with my neighbors. It took all the energy I had just to be out so I barely said anything.

Earlier in the evening, I sat on my front porch, watched the sun go down, and cried for more loss I'll soon suffer. I don't want to lose my house and cats. I've already lost my best friend and partner. I'm tired of loss. Meanwhile, he sits over in sterile apartment with no memories as he gets all he wants.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren it's so hard - when your energy is eaten up just existing -
You are going out and eating - that is brilliant - you're doing it - you're posting to all your mad mates in anonymous land and you are going on - you can't expect anything else for a while...when you can, congratulate yourself for getting this far and getting through the days...it is an acheivement and as time goes by the extreme pain will subside - it just does - who knows how? you are still very raw - in crisis mode - but you have reslove in your voice which I like to hear....

explain to me about the cats - what's going to happen there ?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I care for a feral colony as well as rescued cats- close to 20 in all. I will never be able to find a place to live nor will I find a job that pays well enough that will allow my continued care. I don't have children and probably will never have them due to health problems. My rescues are family. Makes me very sad.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Wren, I don't know what your health problems are, but you never know regarding having kids. I once told the story of my son on this forum. My w was never likely to have children, a little cervical cancer found early but left the wall too thin supposedly. So never thought she would, and she never had before. But hey we conceived. Even then it was very unlikely she would carry to term, but she did. So I look at my son as a miracle.

I just can't believe she forgets those things it seems. I know right now all she dwells on is my negatives, and only sees me through her narcissistic ways - but we were great together once full of openess, etc. It just slipped away, little by little with both our personalities. 

So don't give up on kids you never know. I won't have anymore, but she might -- who knows. I got fixed so it won't happen for me.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren....K is right...you are doing it! It sucks but you are moving forward.

Are the feral cats fixed? At the TAMUCC University here we have a feral cat family. There are signs posted to not feed etc. I think they catch and fix them. It became a dumping ground for cats. Maybe the kids in the dorms or the community thought it would be a nice place to stay? It's pretty much just the campus on this particular island. The cats didn't walk there on their own!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

ok so I see the cats are a part of your life - a big part of who you are and you feel as though saying goodbye to them where you are will be like saying goodbye to family - this must hurt heaps and it must feel like an extremely unfair consequence of your H's decision...part of the way in which 'you will pay' - 
gee I really don't know what that must feel like - except I do know that I have been faced with a few very 'unfair' consequences and eventually I have overcome some of them and others i had to get (am am still ) getting used to...
try and think about what you want - ideal world (without your H that is) and think what it would take to get it...this wasn't quick for me - took 9 months at least - but once I knew what I wanted I could begin to focus on it....
of course - sometimes life moves too quickly and you have to accept when you are not ready...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren...has your H mentioned how soon he would file or how soon the divorce would occur?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> Wren....K is right...you are doing it! It sucks but you are moving forward.
> 
> Are the feral cats fixed?


Yes, I've trapped, altered, and released close to 30 in the last two years. Some have been socialized and adopted. But some can't be and I care for them daily.

I don't feel like I'm moving. I feel stuck.



knortoh said:


> of course - sometimes life moves too quickly and you have to accept when you are not ready...


I think that's why I'm struggling. I don't feel I'm ready. I'm just getting healthy again- mentally and physically. And I'm not sure I can handle all the losses at once. I'm afraid of having another breakdown.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> Wren...has your H mentioned how soon he would file or how soon the divorce would occur?


We were never legally married. We were spiritual partners and I (like a fool) never thought I'd need legality on my side. Because neither NC nor Florida recognize commonlaw marriages, I have no rights. But he pretty much said we would get through the holidays first and at the beginning of the year, he wanted to start the process of becoming independent of me or "us."


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

You are kidding - they don't recognise common law??? that's archaic - sorry - but he's going to be decent isn't he?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Gosh..that adds another dimension. 

Eventually you may need to discuss what his financial plans are toward you. It seems that he wants to do this "the right way" or am I wrong (financially)? I know legally he doesn't have to provide but morally he may want.

It's overwhelming right now. You have time.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

The unemployment in the area is 20%. There are no jobs that would provide enough money for me to keep the house. Even though he is decent, I doubt he'll pay "alimony." I don't know what to do you guys. I'm terrfied. I feel like I've been abandoned and I'm at his mercy.

He just sent me a text asking me how I'm doing. I don't think I should answer him. What do you guys think? I've already stressed the need for no contact after his last attempt. Why is he doing this all to me?!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

He may be worried or feeling guilty...common stuff.

First..I think you need to find out what he wants to do financially. He may want to sell the house and give you some money. 

Then...job wise find our your options.

1. Is there somewhere else (near family) that you could move for better job opportunities.
2. Maybe go back to school and become a student (small apt and financial aid/student loans/part time work). 

Where does your experience lie?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren - I am picking up from your posts that you are financially vulnerable has he always been the main income earner? 
What is your time frame like ? How long do you have before a decision must be made around the house?
It does feel like you are at their mercy - you are not - but that is how it feels - 
on the other hand he should and I would expect him to do the decent thing by you -
there seems no reason to expect he won't...
My H and a I are working on short, medium and long term options. 
If he is feeling guilty explain to him that one way that he can help you is by working out these plans ASAP so that you can start to make your own plans....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I lost my job almost two years ago. Like many small businesses, we closed up shop. Because J was making very good money, he told he I could focus solely on my cat rescues and art. I've never trusted anyone to that level before but I did. Six months ago a newly formed artisans guild started offering studio space for very cheap rent. We agreed I would rent a studio and start selling my art and photography to fund my cat rescue efforts.

Then he left.

He wants to sell the house. He would rather me live here and wouldn't feel right about living here since I put most of the work into it. But he hasn't offered financial help to keep me here. There have been houses on the market for years in this area. We'll either take a loss or have the house on the market indefinitely. He said I can stay here while on the market but when I asked him if it doesn't sell in a year, will we he still pay the mortgage while I live here. He mentioned his hope we would be independent again.

Unfortunately my family lives in the area, so no help there.

I've thought about gong back to school but I'm still paying off student loans now. It costs quite a bit of money to take the GRE which I fear I wouldn't pass because I'm a horrible test-taker. And I'm not sure I would be accepted to graduate school after being out of the field for 10 years. I've been working outside of my educational field, off and on since then.

I don't know what to do. Like I said before, I feel paralyzed. He has no clue. He loses nothing but me- which he doesn't want.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

The student loans can be stopped if you attend school full time.

I hear you thinking alot of "negative thinking." GRE=horrible test taking. Graduate school=won't be accepted. You are letting things stop you before you've tried. That is part of feeling paralyzed. 

Figure out what you'd like to do. Start moving on them. The moment that you start taking action...you will feel better. Sitting there with negative thoughts and not acting=bad combination! I guarantee you will feel better with some action. 

Don't get me wrong. You are entitled to wallow and be pissed off! But living in THAT head space will leave you paralyzed.

You can do this Wren. You are smart and honest and creative...there is nothing you can't do!!!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren you are an artist! that explains a lot - I am as well - (was) 
when I fell pregnant with Vince I was in my 30s no money (literally none) and had never really earnt decent money in my life...I was happy don't get me wrong - I don't care much for material stuff - the things that I love are beauty and ideas - 
anyway having kids meant that I needed money 
I had to change tack - I ended up with a job which allowed for creativity and although I couldn't do art in the same way _ i have found it really satisfying....
the only reason I am telling you this is that I would never have imagined that I would have been able to support myself and feel fulfilled - it can be done -
but all those years of living by my wits and on 'nothing' also taught me that material possessions weren't my thing..
I am getting from you that the reason why you are attached to house is because it contains part of you - if you are an artist and you are practical you have created in the house - turned it into something it wasn't right? 

Your H's crisis has meant that all of this stuff needs to be reassessed for you - no matter how creative we are number 1 is supporting ourselves ...that's just a reality ...

one thing that gives me strength in my context is that I know art and ideas and people sustain me - not money - 
so if I have to sell my house I knwo that I'll be ok - 
I'll be heartbroken and my life will be different and possibly more annoying - but I'll be ok...
am I right in suggesting that your art, your love of your cats..these things sustain you - everything else is secondary...?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I never responded to J's text last night. This afternoon, he called and sent me another text. After a few minutes I sent him a text-"did you need something?" He wanted to know how I am doing, in which I said I don't know how to answer that. I mentioned the no contact and wondered if he was bored or lonely. He said neither but wanted to come over to give me something. After mulling it over, I agreed.

He walked in and said he was nervous. He looked good. His hair was cut and he seemed lighter, happier. His meds were adjusted but it seems to quick for that to affect him. Who knows! Maybe finally saying I don't love you and seeing me accept his choice in front on my mom lifted a burden?

He bought me a laptop. I didn't know how to feel or react. He said he was going to buy me one for Christmas to use in my art studio. But there is no art studio now, I said. He said he wanted to give me one to show his support in whatever I plan to do with my life from this day forward. I questioned if this was guilt or a payoff- mentioned NG tendencies. He said he read about NG's giving with silent contracts and this wasn't the case. He said I deserve it.

When I asked about spending that money when our financials haven't been settled, we began the serious money talk. He wants to put the house on the market in January. He will assume responsbility for all other debts. When I asked what will happen if this house stays on the market for a long time, knowing I can't afford the payment and utilities. He had no answer. He said he didn't want to kick me out but wanted to be independent of me sooner than later. That literally felt like a stab to my heart.

When I asked if he would take any of the cats, he said he would take Oliver- who is the only cat that really belongs to him. I said I guess I need to start finding homes for the others, all the while bawling my eyes out. He didn't respond.

We sat in silence and then he said he guessed he would go. He gave me a half-hearted hug and left.

He's never coming back. I can feel it in my bones.

I feel like I've been abandoned all over again.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Wren, I am so sorry. I have had those sit down talks with my H that ended with me in tears. I know how hard it hurts. Boy, do I know. 

Do you get the impression that your H is doing you a favor by divorcing? I'm getting that sense that he wants you to be happy and fulfilled and the only way to get that is for him to not be in the picture. 

I get the same feeling from my H. This divorce is a favor. He told me he was "cutting ties" so we could both find happiness. 

Good luck with your house situation. Would your neighbors be willing to help out if it comes down to it?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Now..you know where you stand financially. You have until January or so. What a jerk! I would say quit allowing him to come over and messing around with your emotions. He just doesn't "get it."

Listen to Knortoh...she has a great message regarding the creativity and the house. In regards to making you way...you will. Your next place may be small but you'll make it your own. 

Staring moving toward a goal (any goal). Show your H that you won't be left in shreds and unable to stand. This will make you stronger!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

No more visits - he can't be nice and awful at the same time - it is not allowed - I know you don't believe this now but you won't be crying for him for the rest of your life - take the laptaop and slap over the head with it - I would! Honestly - I'd get rid of it - my H triesd to give me XMAS presents last year - through them in the bin...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Take the laptop back and keep the cash!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Corpuswife said:


> Take the laptop back and keep the cash!


much better! :smthumbup:


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

What is he trying to accomplish? I don't understand his motives!

I looked at the specs for the laptop. He built it specially for my art and photography projects with a purple art piece on the cover. This wasn't just a laptop he picked up off the shelf. I don't get it!

I cry. He sits there with no emotion. Why does he care to see or talk to me ever again? He got what he wanted- no more responsibility for me, our house, our cats, our friends, etc.

I woke up every hour, still crying. I feel like I'd finally scabbed over and yesterday, he ripped it off. I feel like I've started the grieving process from square one, all over again.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Well now it's beginning to make sense. He bought me a laptop and now he's bought himself an IPhone. He's now buying what he wants without talking to me or caring how it affects me.

He was on my phone plan so we could talk and text without incuring extra costs. And now we'll have two more bills on top of supporting two households? He does this after I express my concern over paying for a laptop when the utility bills will begin being more than the mortgage?

Who is this man? He's buying toys while my world is crashing around me?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

He's a confused man...who probably justifies his behavior as "finally getting to be the real me. I am getting to make my own decisions." 

Wren...you have to know that he making himself feeling better (temporarily) by buying these gadgets for you and himself. He still loves you and wants a friend connection. 

You are given him too much control. Much of that is the hope that each call/text/visit is an opportunity for him to say "I've made a mistake. I was wrong." I won't happen that way. 

You will be much more attractive to him by working on yourself and not allowing yourself to be kicked around. Even though you've set your boundaries....he's not abiding by them. That's up to you. When he wants to visit or discuss...tell him "no thanks." 

I told my H before we separated. "These are the boundaries. I will not approach you about the relationship again. You know what I want and how I feel. If you want back into the relationship, it will be up to you to step up to the plate."

After he filed for the divorce...I quit the harsh boundaries. I was capable of seeing him when I felt like it. I do. Not once, have a mentioned the relationship since he filed. It's all on him and up to him.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I don't think he loves me, CW. I think this IPhone was another means of detaching and asserting his independence of me. He knows I'll know not have access to cell records. And he bypasses the no internet at his apt. ( which he said he didn't want distractions from self-work like a TV or internet access )with this phone.

Now my parents are fuming and I had to listen to my mother rage on the phone about J for almost an hour. I regret opening up to them because it causes me more pain to hear how "stupid" I am and how "childish" J is.

My therapist is at a conference this week. And I'm starting to have suicidal thoughts today. I know it's sleep deprivation and panic attacks that's provoking the escape at all cost thoughts.

I feel like I have no safe place.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hey Wren - you are going to be ok and one day you'll laugh about the i-phone - that goes with the territory - my H did the Same thing - they are so predictable - the gadgets distract for a few months 
listen to CW - put up those boundareis and stick to them...in the meantime communicate with us -we are much more fun ! 

.tell us about your artwork...what do you do - do you have any online that we can look at? who are your favourite artists?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren..you need to quit reaching out to people that have negative reactions! That included your parents. They would to take your side and that's understandable but you don't need their anger.

You need to reach out and do something. Do you have an mp3 or IPOD? Put some tunes on and dance or take a walk. Think about your future. Do NOT focus on J or what he's done. This negative thinking lead to your suicidal thoughts. 

Right now...you feel hopeless and want to escape. Do something. Call a friend and do something. Make a plan.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

I agree. Surround yourself with people who are positive influences. Life is too short to deal with people who constantly cause you pain. 

The last 5 weeks I was stationed near one of the great lakes for my job. I worked with a lady who is considerably older than me and suggested that we take a walk on the beach each evening after work. This co-worker was not what I consider a good friend, but she did listen to me vent or sometimes talked non-stop when I didn't feel like talking. I always felt better after walking. 

I'm pretty happy I got stationed with this co-worker when I was going through the worst of my separation and divorce. I think if was by myself, I would have taken to drinking or crying in my hotel room alone.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Another great example of how sometimes the right people are in yuor life when you need them - and if you reach out they pay up ----


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Wren, take a deep breathe. Hold it in for 10 seconds and breathe out. Please do so. You will make it. You can be strong, I've seen it in your posts. I know there are days that are good and days that aren't, but you can do it. You have your art to live for and the cats. You can do this.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I was talking to a work colleague this am - he said western culture undervalues 'just hanging in there' some days, many days this is a major acheivement ...hang in there!


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

wren...

There are people here who care about YOU. No, you've never met anyone here and we're all just a bunch of faceless strangers but we are all here pulling for each other because that's what caring human beings do. And we DO care about you and your future.

I'm a big self-help book reader and I really believe the book I am reading now would help you - "Feel the fear and do it anyway". It touches on so many of the areas that you've mentioned you are struggling with. If your local library does not have a copy and you can't buy a copy right now, send me a PM and I will get a copy to you. 

Please don't stop posting here. Keep talking to us. We will try our best to help you out.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thank you all for reaching out; showing such care and support for me. It has taken all of my energy just to maintain a semblance of self-care. 

It seems, outside of this forum, no one is available or wants to be here for me right now. A friend of mine said I could come stay with her for a few days after I told her I really needed her. She's disappeared. My parents, who were hurt because I didn't respond to their anger as they thought I should, are no longer speaking to me. My neighbors are angry with J and when I said, "tell him, not me. I feel like he's being protected from the consequences of his choices. outside of the crazy, scorned lady- no one seems to find it necessary to communicate their feelings and thoughts with him," they took offense. So, I have no support or a safe place to rest my mind and heart right now. Since my therapist is out of town and I can't get an appt. to see my doctor, I've pretty much cried and read books. I can't sleep. I make myself eat. I feel pathetic and have "should" all over myself.

I'm in a dark place right now, guys. And though I know these feelings won't last forever, I feel completely abandoned by people I thought cared about me and by the universe. Maybe that's fatalistic or melodramatic but it's just where I am right now.

So, thank you. Without this forum, I would be totally alone.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm glad you posted...

You are right folks aren't always available for our needs. 

Try getting out today for a walk to music.

How about doing your art?

I know much is FORCED.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

My goal for today is to take a walk, It's been raining for days so I think that's not helped my isolation. I also tried to start a painting and the energy for effort just isn't there. The insomnia is really draining me of anything I have left after the grieving. Soon, this cycle has to end right?


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

Yes, the cycle will end. Keep posting. We're all pulling for you.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren you are doing it tough - and the feeling of being alone is horrible - no way to sugar coat that one...

d8zed CW, FA, mls, me, we are all with you - you have to believe this - we are real people who care about you and your well -being and we have all suffered in some way (welcome to being human hey?) 

what I read in your posts is that you are going through an extremely low time but you are doing it anyway....

you are hanging in there - 

I wish I could convince you of how strong that makes you - you may not be able to see it - or hear it at the moment - but you are strong - 

not sleeping is a killer but at least you can recognise that this is playing a role in how you are feeling 

walking any sort of exercise will help - it will feel forced as CW says as though you are a robot telling your body what to do - but that is what you have to do -

I am glad that you are posting - 

we really are there for you............


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes..keep us posted. It's total human to go through this varied emotions. Staying inside and allowing the grief to take over is letting J take control. 

Those days are gone girlfriend!!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

My heater died and there were some questions about finances, so J came over yesterday after work. *yes, I know. Why do I keep doing this to myself?*

We had a two hour talk. He said he's realized that he's been totally selfish in his decisions. He wanted to start standing up for his wants and needs but ended up going to the other extreme. He's finally shown some remorse for all the pain he's caused me. His therapist and Dr. agreed he may have been overmedicated, so all dosages were lowered. And I think that may contribute to him showing emotion again. He didn't have that numb, vacant look on his face.

He says he's really confused because he's still not happy but isn't sure he can be happy here either. He doesn't know what he wants. When I mentioned if he would rather move back in the house and I move out of town, he didn't like that idea. "I wouldn't like you far away." I said, " but you're far away, what's the difference?" He cried and said he knows. I told him that it would be hard to live in a small town, run into him, and move on. I said I wasn't ready to give up and let go. "Do you want me to let you go?" He said he didn't know. He says he misses this life but doesn't know how to work on himself without being alone. I asked him what we should do now and he had no answer. More time to think about everything- he says.

I don't want to get my hopes up. Nothing may change. But it was the first talk we've had in a while that he showed emotion and I didn't feel completely destroyed afterwards. 

I'm a pathetic fool, right?


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

No your not you just want your marriage. We all fight for what we want. 


It is very positive.. He is addressing his issues. Now the key will be you need to give him the time to work through it. After he works on himself then you can work on the marriage. I see you guys getting back together soon but you will have to be very supportive and work hard on building the relationship up.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It's positive step Wren, but just as he doesn't know what he wants still leaves you in the same predicament.

Don't wait for him to come around without taking action on YOUR own behalf! 

If you wish, when he decides to come home, to welcome him...then do so. 

But his moods and actions can change on a daily basis leaving you in dire straits. 

Please...focus on yourself and getting better. Start looking for work (even in 20% unemployment)...something is better than nothing. Or...look at schools or do your art. Get back on the horse!

It worries me that you are do dependent upon him for many things. 

If he does come back and you've move forward...it will mean a healthy relationship. Maybe the same mistakes won't be repeated???


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

wren...

Two things:

1. If it helps any, here is a little of what I think you're seeing from your H and this comes from the book I mentioned in previous posts. I believe your H is obviously trying to "find himself" and trying to "become a man". As he attempts to do so, he swings from 'passive' (too nice) to 'aggressive' (not very nice). The book demonstrates this behavior using a pendulum methaphor. At some point, hopefully he settles in the middle 'healthy/appropriate' zone. I've attempted to reproduce the chart from the book at the following link:

http://plikostroller.com/d8zed/pendulum.GIF

2. The book talks about living a "whole life". Think about a 3x3 grid like the one I created here:

http://plikostroller.com/d8zed/wholelife.gif

Typically a 'healthy' person lives a whole life consisting of many different interests, passions, etc. (contribution, hobby, leisure, etc.). Now, let's say that one piece of that whole life is removed - a relationship for example. The person is definitely affected by the loss but it's only ONE piece of an overall healthy life and all the other pieces help the person deal with the loss of the one item.

Now, imagine if you only had ONE item ('relationship') in your whole life grid and it was removed. What would happen? Of course, the answer is everything in your life would be gone.

I'm not trying to imply that you only have one thing in your life because I obviously don't know you. But my advice is to rely on the other areas of your 'whole life' to give you strength and support to help ease the pain of the loss.

Hope I'm not coming across as too preachy.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I appreciate you guys so much! And I would never take offense to what you say!

I guess I should give you guys some more background.

I belong to the local historic preservation board.
I care for more than 20 cats and do rescue work in the 3 county area.
I'm actively involved in my neighborhood association in which I serve a liason for our city involvement. We are currently campaigning to have our neighborhood designated as a historic district.
I'm not close with my family, though they live a half hour away. I've not lived close to them since I was 18. I moved back to NC in 2005 when my dad was diagnosed with cancer.
I lost my job almost two years ago. And I have been applying for jobs and sending out resumes for three months.
Until a month ago, I was an active artisan guild founder, where I hoped to rent a studip and begin selling my work.
I guess in a nutshell, I'm telling how I'm involved socially and professionally in the area. I'm not dependent on my relationship for whole fulfillment. I am dependent on J financially- but this is only after years of my contribution and bailing him out of bankruptcy and credit troubles.

So I guess I want to know how I'm dependent on J and this relationship otherwise? Because I don't understand where you, CW and d8zed, are coming from? I trust your words.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

My feedback was based solely on some of your previous posts. If I misinterpreted anything, I apologize.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Please don't apologize d8zed. I really want to know. If I'm being self-destructive, needy, codependent, whatever- I need someone to be honest with me. I realize that I post mostly when I'm very down so the impression would easily be that I'm a depressed hermit that doesn't want to live without J. *lol*
I guess I wanted to make sure you guys are aware that for the most part, outside of the horrible job hunt, I live a life full of activity and social events. I have great neighbors and a downtown merchants group that I see often. I'm working on the relationship with my family. And I'm reaching out to friends that live out of the area, too.
I want to make sure I do everything I can before walking away from this life. I don't want to have any regrets.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Thank you Wren! I'm glad to hear these positive things in your life. We don't get to hear/read these things going on. I guess we were worried that you were a "depressed hermit." haha

You are right on-no regrets! All we can do it our best.

Cheering you on!!!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren it is great to hear a little more of your story. It does help us to understand. 
D8zed many thanks for those graphics - I particuarly liked the pendulum one! have saved it....and I am also going to study the matrix - it just happens to be where I am at in my thinking about 'me' as well. The only problem with matrix's is that they also need blurry lines and parts that overlap...that way they would be more truthful..

Wren, don't know about you but this pendulum explains a lot of my H's relation with me....so much....and it helps to have it in graphic form...I even like the shaky lines d8zed - that is in keeping with emotions hey?
You're a dark horse d8zed - never quite sure if you are around and then you appear with gifts! Always makes me smile.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I guess my motto these days is:


you gotta live to learn
you gotta crash and burn
you gotta make some stances
and take some chances
you gotta live and love
and take all life has to give
you gotta live and learn
so you can learn to live


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

knortoh said:


> You're a dark horse d8zed -


The Dark Knight! (and I live with the Joker!) That wasn't nice, was it!?!?!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

D8zed I think it just goes with NG territory - my nick name for J was "the secret agent" - honestly it was - just didn't know he was secret agent in my own relationship!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes...Wren that is so true!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I do need to detach more. I don't know how to love him and detach simultaneously. When there is no contact, I miss him terribly. When there is contact, I panic over impending pain. I feel like I'm in emotional purgatory, with no way out.

CW, how did you get to the place where it doesn't pain you to see or talk to him?

Any thoughts or opinions are appreciated!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It is purely and simply TIME! I used to see his phone number on my cell and get excited. I'd talk to him and hang up...then break down. I would see him drive by and cry.

Now...I see his number and I feel ok. I don't breakdown at all after I catch a glimpse of him or he leaves the house. 

Each day, each week, each month, little by little it gets better.

I still have moments when I feel weak and cry. It's better but not over.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Wren you need to lose the "in love" feeling more then loving him. It is hard to do when your wanting it bad. What I can tell you I did was focus on other positive areas in your life to occupy your thoughts. Deep breaths worked well to refocus. I know its not easy.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Through all the pain, I love him more everyday. Now that's frustrating!

Since J moved out, he's alienated himself from friends and family. He reached out to our mutual friends/neighbors a couple of days ago. And even though they claim to be angry and hurt, they invited him over to their Halloween porch party. He contacted me to see if I would be okay with him attending. I'm not going to get in the way of their friendship. It's their party and they can invite whomever they wish. I just don't know what I'm supposed to do now.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

You H sounds depressed like mine! Alienating himself and seeing to be alone. 

He still wants contact.....he searching for happiness.

You are in the middle..he wants to be connected but doesn't want the relationship now. That is probably why he seeks you out...even accepting invites to neighbors parties in which you be there. He probably doesn't even realize that he's doing this!

What do you think the results will be if you attend the party and your H is there?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I really don't know, CW. Even if I didn't go, I can see everything that goes on from my house. I really think it's my neighbors' way of trying to remind J of what he left behind.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Oh - that's 'nice' of them - but maybe not 'good'....


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Wren, if I were you and I knew my H was attending the party, I wouldn't go and I'd sit at home and peer out the window to watch his every move.

You should make plans for yourself that night. Go out to eat with friends or shopping. If you can't get anyone lined up to go with you, go get a mani/pedi and treat yourself. Try going to the movies, it's not that bad by yourself (I did it a few days ago). Keep yourself busy and avoid feeling bad.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

mls: That may be a good move...if you aren't going to attend. 

Or...have a HOT guy come over! haha


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Somebody say hot guy?? :lol: :rofl:


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Behave yourself LH!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Well considering that I was supposed to cook for the party and I'm helping decorate for it, I'm not sure how I can get out of it.

All my friends will be at this party. 

So I guess either I'll be alone or be forced to fake a smile while J is there.

I really think I need to pack up and move. I can't see how this is going to get any easier for me. We have the same circle of activities and friends. It's a small town. I'm always going to run into him.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Wren, if you go to the party make sure you have fun!! 

All you are required to do is say hi to your H and be friendly. I've found it's easier to "kill them with kindness."

Will there be enough people at the party that you can hang out without having to constantly be around your H?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I won't have fun. And I may not even be able to fake it. If that's the case, I'll leave instead of making people uncomfortable.
If I know him like I think I do, he'll either stay far away or cling to me.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Maybe you can make up an excuse. You could help decorate, cook and hangout with the people throwing the party before the event. 

Heck, tell them you have a hot date. Or you have 2 parties to attend and you're splitting your time at both parties. 

Whatever you do, don't spend your evening at home alone. Lie through your teeth if you have to.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'll probably go late and leave early. I can use the excuse that I want to hand out candy to trick-or-treaters. I'll just bring the food and decorate, come home, drop by for a little bit, and then leave. What do you think?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Think the most important part of the evening is a back up plan...something else to do...somewhere else to go - I have found you should always have options for these times -


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I don't have a back-up plan. I have nowhere else to go and noone else to see. I don't drive at night and if I have to be alone, I'd rather be at home anyways.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Pretend you have a backup plan when you leave..."you have a friend coming over" or "you have another function to go to." 

Make J think that you aren't waiting around for him!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Yes make some stuff up.. Leave early and say your meeting up with somebody. Also give yorself something to look forward too. Maybe rent a movie or even go out to the movies. Maybe go shopping for clothes or something you wanted to buy. It does make you feel better and distracts the mind..


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I couldn't do it. I'm sitting home alone.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

That's ok....there is no right or wrong here! 

What did you end up doing at home? How did you handle things while you were inside?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I light all the candles. The outside of my home was already spooky. But I only had 6 trick-or-treaters. And I watched Spencer Tracy's version of Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde.

J attended the party and my neighbors were upset with me that I didn't attend. They attempted to guilt me into going. I told them I was an adult and felt it was best for everyone. Of course J tried to pull the "I won't go if you don't go" crap. I told him to grow up.

I was extremely sad and lonely. So when J stopped by to "check on me," I told him that I couldn't hold onto hope anymore. I got my hopes up after we talked last week but he's back to the " I need to be with myself, work on myself...I need you as a friend so I have someone to keep me in line selfish, only taking, not giving BS."

I told him I wanted no contact unless emergencies. And I wrote down rules regarding bills, house, car, cats, etc. and we both signed it.

He is a selfish, little boy that would gladly string me along so he can have his cake and eat it too. That is not love. So, somehow, I MUST detach.

I cried and puked all night long.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Wren I am sorry.. It is probably best for your sanity to do that. I think that was very strong of you.. This should help you detach a little more..


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

That was strong of you! Wow. It doesn't feel good but you know what you need. He's not thinking of you. He thinks he is but that contant "checking in" and "helping" is hypocritical. 

Distance and time will help detach.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I don't feel strong.

I witnessed more casualities of J's choice. He never does as he's alienated himself. I guess he told a few of the neighbors ( ones we don't know well) he's been working out of town for these last months and will probably be back at the end of the year. WTF? My neighbor friends were very upset with his cowardice but kept their mouths shut.

Tonight, I attended my niece's 2nd birthday party and my older niece wouldn't speak to me. We've always been really close. She's 7so she's only known my life with J. I finally cornered her and asked her what was wrong. Her only reply? Where's J?

He's a coward. He doesn't answer for his actions. He hides in his apartment, away from his damage all in the name of "working on himself." Bull****. Cowardice.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes...they are cowards and running. They are hurting and in pain. 

It all B.S. no doubt. 

They have little choice and don't see any alternatives. 

Fight or Flight.

Guess what they did? 

Keep your distance from him. He'll come around...I have a feeling in this regards. 

If you had a decent relationship and he's not running towards anyone else...then there a healthy chance that he'll be wanting back in. When? That's the magic question....you may have already moved on to better things. 

You also may not want him back if he ran once...he may run twice.

This is how I run my situation through my brain....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

An old friend picked me up yesterday and I'm staying with her for a few days. Her fiance asked me what was going on and my friend said J left, to work on himself, and he needed to be alone. He scoffed and said those were excuses because if a man wants to be with you, issues or not, he will be. He then said if a guy says he wants to be alone, the best thing to do is actually leave him alone. One of two things will happen, you will detach and move on or he will realize alone isn't great and come back. But he MUST actually experience aloneness.
I'm not saying what this guy says is gospel but he is the same age as J. And it was interesting to hear a man's perspective.
J is taking care of the cats and picking up mail while I'm gone. He offered "because I shrugged off my responsbilities when I moved out and I don't want to be selfish anymore." I accepted the offer but will continue no contact. I am moving on and I will leave him alone. My therapist made me promise to not make any major decisions until after the holidays. So for the next couple of months, I will grieve and heal.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

That's a great idea...no major decisions until after the holidays.

Your friend H is right! Give him HIS ALONE Wren....full strength.

No chit chat or relationship talk...let him have it all.

Have a fun time with your friend....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

When one partner in a relationship, whether separated/divorced, changes...the other is affected. After being away for a few days, I felt empowered. I didn't cry at all while I was gone. I got more great books and had some healing conversations.

When I sent J a text to let him know that I would be home and he no longer needed to check on the cats, he sent a "Are you okay?" I replied with yes. I didn't engage which is different for me. His are you okays were covert contracts to be there for him. I now see that.

He texted me again later to let me know he found filters for the heater. I asked if he would drop them off on the way to work ( no time for chit chat during that time of day. I get the filters and he goes on his merry way ). Instead he contacts he again and wants to come over to drop them off after work. I thought about asking him to just leave it on the porch but then I decided to test myself.

He came in and asked how I was, etc. I could tell he was anxious and aggitated. I wasn't engaged and I was politely detached! I actually did it. He wanted to vent about work and when I offered nothing, he said, "like you really care." He paced around the living room and I didn't offer eye contact. "Well, I guess I'll go." I said, "Okay. Thanks again. Good luck with work." He seemed shocked and tried to engage again on the way out. Didn't work. I wished him well and closed the door.

He just seems to have this need to disrespect the no-contact rule.
But for once, I showed him life without his counselor/best friend. I didn't cry. I didn't ask about the relationship. I was polite. I did it!!!

I can do this. I really can.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Way to go Wren. Nice job. I haven't been able to completely show no emotion or be nice quite yet. You did great.

YOU CAN DO IT!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

YEAH WREN!!!! 

It's empowering to have the upper hand-finally! You are doing the tough love stance. It helped me keep my sanity for the first 2 months of the separation. I feel that those in our situation need to let our mates...feel the pain of their decisions.

He's feeling it. 

Why should he expect that you'd fall apart when he left?

My gyno said this when her husband left...."I don't know what he expected...that I'd fall apart?" I found that funny. I'm in the category that they are too busy tending to their feelings that they may not notice how it effects us.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

wren, He will continue to test your "boundaries" and your determination to enforce them. You are off to a GREAT start! Well done.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Fridays are the hardest days/nights for me. It was our time.
And, I found out he didn't go to his therapy appt. yesterday when the therapist called my number. I guess he didn't give him the new number. The old me wants to caretake and question. But I know I can't. And I won't. But the desire is there. And the sadness and loneliness for him is here, too.
I'm making a nice dinner for myself. I'd stopped cooking. No more!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

You are getting stronger bit by bit. Today, I felt strong but still my heart aches. There is no question that this will take time to become used to my new life. I still can't believe....even today that my H and I getting a divorce. 

My heart doesn't feel divorced.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Yes, Wren, you are getting stronger. You are beginning to go on with your life and that's a good sign. 

You will still have pretty rotten and sad days. Just when I think I'm doing well, a wave of sadness or loneliness hits me. I keep hoping that someday these waves will stop. Not sure when that will happen though.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I wonder if the waves or ache ever stops?
I was doing fairly well until I logged onto facebook and in my newsfeed? J is no longer listed as "in a relationship." A slap in my face- it felt so real. I have been crying for an hour now.

I wish I didn't care. I don't want to hate him. I'm just tired of crying. I have been crying for almost a year.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

W we must be having similiar times wish I could help ease the pain 
K


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

K, there are minutes that I literally feel like I am bring ripped apart by some sharp object. The pain has become physical-like.
I just keep hurting and crying. It seems to never end.
Just when I think I'm doing okay, something like the facebook status happens. I don't understand what I'm doing wrong.

It's good to see you, K. I wish I could ease your pain, too.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

my pain is often physical as well - tightness in chest mainly - I had thought I was over the worst of it - but it is as though there are triggers which bring back the trauma and no matter how mcuh your head is working you realise that your heart is just broken again = my H has just dropped the kids off again seeing him hurts me - looking into his eyes hearing his voice - I still experience these as wounds -


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It used to be, for me, that every call would end with a cry. Every glimpse in his life (driving past me or dropping off our D)....would spur on my pain. 

It's subsided a bit. 

K: What if you would drop the kids off at his house? Does that make you feel better or more in control? It does with me. I'm so damn cheerful he must think I am going to a party.

In fact, yesterday (hehe), he asked if my new purse was a gift? Why would he ask that? I said "no not really." It's a gift to myself but I didn't tell him. He must think my new "friend" is buying me things. These questions don't affect me much...I quit looking for answers and don't dwell on the questions.

This guy is messed up..on the inside.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I cried until 2:30 when I popped 2 xanax to make myself sleep for a few hours. My eyes are so swollen that it hurts to blink.
I tried to make plans with everyone I know. They are all "busy."
Car is broken down, probably for good. I'm stranded and alone. What am I going to with myself to keep from going insane today?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

wren - spend the day posting if you are there - I am around and will chat all day about anything - or nothing - 

CW - I do feel better when I drop kids at his place and pick them up those practical things help -


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I made myself go outdoors. I ended up raking the yard and it felt good to move my muscles. Then I took a nap, which I rarely do because I'm an insomniac. I dread the sun going down. I know I need to be postive but I feel so alone today.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

A bit of earth touching is always good and I bet the yard thanks you - I guess it is beautiful (fall) there? I am about to make a tropical fruit platter for my sons for breakfast - it is mango season here -


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Yes, it is fall but still not too cold down south.
Yum, mangos!

Well, I will keep checking in tonight.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

wren said:


> I was doing fairly well until I logged onto facebook and in my newsfeed? J is no longer listed as "in a relationship." A slap in my face- it felt so real. I have been crying for an hour now.


I know how you are feeling, Wren. A few weeks ago I logged into Facebook and found that my H had changed his status from "married" to "single." I was devastated. I know it's trivial but man does it hurt. It was like rejecting me all over again.

The best thing I did, de-friend him on Facebook. I no longer have that fear of what he's doing or saying about me. I don't need to keep tabs on him or waste anymore energy on him. If I want to talk to him, I'll send him an email or give him call. Please take my advice on this. It will make a world of difference.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I just handled my son being picked up by my H by not going down to say hello - I honestly need to limit my contact - and can't look at him any more - it hurts too much - one day we'l be able to face them and it won't hurt any more -


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Both of you are so right!
We'll get through this! Scarred and bruised, but survived nonetheless!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yep! We will survive. We also need to keep protecting ourselves.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

What a horrible weekend. I've not felt so much pain and anger in my entire life. My abandonment issues were triggered big time when I saw termites swarming among my almost 100 yr. old wood sided house. I felt angry that he walked away from his commitment and responsibility to sharing this home with me. I didn't ask for any of this. Our contract states that any purchases over $50 need to be agreed upon first so I sent him a text about the termites. In my rage and pain, there were several not-so-friendly text conversations. What is wrong with me?!

And I'm hurting deeply that even though I have reached out to J's family, not one of them has returned contact. How can these people claim to love me, treat me as family, and then abandon me as soon as J runs away? I really don't see how I can trust or believe I love yous ever again.

I'm thinking of asking about hypnotherapy to see if I can pinpoint the core of my abandonment pain.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Times like these where you'd deal with things together (house problems/kid issues/etc) is when the anger raises its ugly head.

I was in the pantry last night...in my home alone, thinking he took my family away from me. Now...others would say "S...you still have your family it just LOOKS different." I say when the tree is turned to mulch it is WAY different.

J's family probably should have returned contact. But I know in these situations where they see you hurting and their son has done it to you...they don't know what to do or say. More than likely, like your H, they don't like conflict. Where do you think he learned his style of dealing? ha


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

You're right, CW. His family is no confrontation, only sunshine and roses, and definitely no emotional honesty.

I feel like this grief is never going to end.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

When push comes to shove you see where families trust lies.. They obviously turned back when husband did. Now that could be by his request we don't know. All I do know is he should help you...


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Loving Husband said:


> When push comes to shove you see where families trust lies.. They obviously turned back when husband did. Now that could be by his request we don't know. All I do know is he should help you...


I know that he doesn't communicate with them often. And that there has been little support for him, as well. His aunt told me yesterday that he needs serious help. So, I don't think he's requested there to be no contact. I just think his family doesn't handle crises.

I wish someone would help me, LH. I feel so alone and tired.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

W- You are getting help. we are here. I know I'm not around as much as I have been but I am having time issues with working on the wife.. Still CW, K, FA, are here too..


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Yep, I learned early that I will lose some people I thought were friends. I'll also lose a new family, my H's relatives. 

What surprises me is that my H and my in-laws have not told ANYONE that we're getting divorced. There have been a lot of mutual friends who had no idea anything was up. 

This shocks me because one of my last conversations with my H was when he told me that his mom thought I never appreciated anything they did for me!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren: My H's family are exactly like this....they never ask my H about anything. They talk about their vacation, the weather, the dog across the street...anything BUT what's going on in HIS life.

They don't deal. My H never brings it up. He doesn't deal.

The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree.

Oh well.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren - it's all part of the many losses - no matter what they will be compelled to see him with sympathy - doesn't really mean that they love you any less - he will just figure as their priority -
I was very close to my H's family - his dad still calls me and told me I will always be a daughter for him - just as J will always be his son. He loves me I know - but it will never compare to what he feels for J. That is just the way it is - a couple of J's sister's keep in contact with me - but not much - partly because life is just busy and they don't want to get involved - one of them told me that it was important that I did not become alienated from their family ( I think at the least they recognise I did nothing 'wrong') but I do feel very alienated ...I have to fight against this - very hard not to relate to them as J's jilted wife - who am I to them????
All very hard stuff to deal with - and it is so tiring and lonely. 
We are here for you.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

It's not just a divorce from our spouses. It's many losses and a divorce from life as we knew it.

I feel so weak because I'm pretty sure I need to contact my doctor and have my meds adjusted again. I've been having suicidal and cutting thoughts again. I know I have no control over my body's reaction and chemical imbalance, but I've always been the "strong" one. I think this process is determined to teach me that it's okay to not be strong all the time. I am allowed to grieve, no matter how many times people tell me to "get over it." I think the aloneness in this battle is starting to affect me. And with the holidays approaching, I want to disappear.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

The people who tell you to "get over it" aren't emotionally attached to your H. It's insensitive on their part but they mean well.

You don't have to be strong all of the time. I consider myself a very strong person but I do break down and have weak moments. We are allowed to grieve just as if we had a death. 

Contact you doctor for a meds adjustment. Plus, maybe step up the counseling to once a week (if not already) to get you through the holidays. Add some exercise as well. That would be my RX. haha. 

Invite a friend over and talk about anything other than your H. Go to an art show...I hate this Wren. But feeling alone is a side effect of our broken relationships. However, during my relationship there were times where I felt alone as well.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm calling the Dr. as soon as the office opens. And I'm going to talk to my therapist about weekly sessions. She'll probably agree.

All my friends have been giving my excuses when I offer to make dinner, watch a movie, etc. What's so weird is that I rarely talked about J with most of them. I just think they are uncomfortable with my fragility and vulnerability. This situation has everyone looking at their own lives. I'm alone, CW. I really am.

And to make it worse, I'm in for 3 days of flooding rain possibly. Cabin fever, here we come!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren, the wanting to disappear stuff is scary stuff - I have been there - I hated my body for a while thought it didn't belong to me - don't listen to anyone who tells you to get over it - you will - but not because they tell you to....I always like it when you can speak to someone who has truly been there - they don't downplay how you are feeling - and in fact they can help you explain and validate it - but they also do say that you will get through it - very different to being told to get over it.....
this may sound pretentious but I am going to quote a Samuel Beckett line that I recite to myself :
I can't go on, I must go on, I'll go on. 

But aside from all that CW is much more useful with her pactical advise - I started seeing my counsellor more often and calling her when I had to when I was really low...it helped.


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

The alone feeling is probably one of the worst side effects of what you are going throu like CW said. 

You do need to get out...force yourself to get out. 

Go through the list of your friends, maybe its an almost non-existant list but regardless make one. See if there is anyone that you feel the most comfortable with to talk to.

If your friends are really avoiding you right now...it might be a good time to join a support group, you will meet people there...just keep expanding your circle of friends

Talk to your counselor once a week

At the beginning of each new week I make a list of things that I want to get done for the week (you could also do this daily). I have a small little notebook and I write everything that I need to do and trust me it feels good to cross things off the list. Another plus...its keeps you organized. I carry it in my purse and if I get a call from my work or my lawyer or anything I can jot it down.

Watch some empowering movies. I like The Women. Thats a good one I also like Tyler Perry movies...they have a lot of situations that we are going through.

Take care of yourself Wren...you can and you will be able to breathe easy again one day. You will!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Ash I love your practical advice - the notebook is just excellent - are you sure that you aren't 62?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

hah K...I was thinking the same thing. What a blessing you are Ash...such great advice for anyone really...


When you invite...tell them no J talk allowed! That will let them know that you are up to a fun evening/lunch/whatever.

I do this with my friends..."no C talk tonight."


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I journal. I keep a goal notebook. I invite friends for fun nights. There are no organizations in the area for grief or divorce! I was so surprised! Like my therapist said, I've been doing all the self-care work but not getting any results. I think I'm broken.

I have a 3:15 appt today to discuss med changes. Hopefully, I will feel some relief from the severe depression in a few weeks.

Last night was horrible. There was a community meeting that I was supposed to attend but I knew J would be there. I stayed at home. He came into the house, with a key, without contacting me. Scared me to death! My words for him were not pretty. Once again, he shows no respect for me. He can't see beyond his nose.

He's "struggling." He's questioning his choices because everyone thinks he's a selfish coward. So I asked him point blank- " is this, whatever you are doing, worth the risk of cutting ties with me and never having me in your life again in any capacity?" His answer?
Yes. I see no other choice. It feels like life or death for me. WTF.
But he can't actually explain to me why yes or why life or death. I seriously think something is wrong with him.
So I said to him calmly, " well, you left me. you told me you didn't love me. and you are willing to risk cutting ties with me forever. I think that pretty much slaps reality in my face. Maybe now I can focus on those three comments and really let go."
Since we weren't legally married, we had nontraditional jewelry. He's been wearing a necklace I gave him with the chinese symbol for future for 6 years. I asked him to take it off since he no longer wants our future. He did without a fight. 
It's over. It is really over. Now if I can convince my heart and soul that he's no longer my husband, maybe I can move on.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Good for you Wren - you are speaking sense -
if it is any consolation my H views his situation through the same lens of 'no choice'...they are so stupidly dramatic - what does that mean ? It just means he still can't take responsibility for his choice - so he has to pretend that he didn't have a choice - well you have been strong and let him know that you are choosing to move on - Wren at least you are a grown person who accepts repsonsibility for their feelings and their decisions...I know how much you are hurting but you are sounding good...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

He is "struggling" with his own issues. Just from what you write I can tell. Setting your boundaries is healthier for you Wren.

I can't get to the point of taking off my wedding ring. I may not remove it after the divorce even. My H still wears his...crazy guy.
I can't believe it. 

You must have been ready for him to remove the necklace or very angry. I am not there yet.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I was very angry. Now I'm back to terribly sad.
But I did see one of my therapists yesterday (ha! it takes a whole team for me, I guess). He called my regular doctor and suggested an increase in cymbalta and a change to klonopin from xanax.
He actually had tears in his eyes and said "this is when my job is hard because I hate to see you hurt. And I can't make it all better."
He hopes the med adjustment will stop the self-abusive thoughts and help me deal with virtually being alone (abandonment is my ptsd-like trigger).

Another day of heavy winds and rain, with leaks all over my old house, has me feeling defeated this morning. I want to hate J for leaving me here. Then again, hate takes too much energy too.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

It's a shame cause I still don't understand why he is going to this extreme. Why leaving is the most important thing for him. What is he going to achieve if not in your life? What have you been doing that makes him feel like he has to do this?? I'm so about personal responsibility that it makes no sense to me. Told the wife what will she do if I go through a mid-life crisis. Her words I don't think we can take it. I said don't worry that won't happen.. Since I know I can make my own happiness and not rely on others to do it for me. I want her to make me happier though.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren I am glad that you have some sensitive people looking out for your health - am trying to imagine the cold and wind - I'd like to be able to transport you here - weather is pretty amazing this time of year - sky is so blue and everything is warm and all the trees are blooming - it would blow your sox off literally!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Loving Husband said:


> It's a shame cause I still don't understand why he is going to this extreme. Why leaving is the most important thing for him. What is he going to achieve if not in your life? What have you been doing that makes him feel like he has to do this?? I'm so about personal responsibility that it makes no sense to me. Told the wife what will she do if I go through a mid-life crisis. Her words I don't think we can take it. I said don't worry that won't happen.. Since I know I can make my own happiness and not rely on others to do it for me. I want her to make me happier though.


He's become a narcissus in his quest to no longer be a "nice guy." He claims that it's not about not wanting me because if it was that black and white, he wouldn't be struggling. He says he doesn't know who he is and he probably never has. He's threatened by my emotional honesty and my knowledge of what I want from him- he thinks he's not good enough and will forever feel that way with me. He says that he can only become strong and healthy if he does it alone because he fears he will only become dependent and repeat patterns/behaviors.

What upsets me if that he is forgetting that I'm not the same person he left in June. I recognized my part in the unhealthy patterns and I've worked hard on myself to create new ways of handling relationships. He didn't even give me a chance to show him that the dynamics have changed.

I think this is a midlife crisis brought on by his low testosterone. He's full of self-loathing and victim-thinking. In his mind, if he becomes "happy" alone, he will never be weak or dependent again.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

This is what relationships do. Your life is woven together and you are ONE. Not 2 bodies. I don't understand what people think. You don't get married to live seperate lives. Your individuality is no longer your top priority. It is there but it's together first and foremost. If I saw your H I would wake him up to reality..  I really think people fail to understand the concept of marriage and what it really means. Make your own happiness in the life you built not the one you have no clue about..


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

LH, you are a man. J is a boy. I think that's one of the biggest differences. He runs in the interest of self-service. He's alread done this once in his first marriage. I thought he'd grown up since then and realized what commitment is really about.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wow LH you are so on the money - they get so selfish though these guys - separate is exactly what they can do....


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

W- Facts are I believe most men are boys.. Especially when it comes to emotionally. I talk to a lot of people. I work retail. I hear the same stories from so many women. I told my wife that if hse divorced me she would regret it in the first relationship cause she would compare everything I did for her and this family and she will not find a man that will do half of what I do.. Now I am a kid at heart. I still enjoy playing the Wii. I have a computer with video games and I go to amusement parks with my D and go on the rides. The difference is I know I have other responsibilities and I make sure I take care of them also..


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm a kid at heart too, LH which is why we used to have so much fun together. I embraced all his parts- loved and accepted him. I asked him the other day why he wants to cut the one person, who's loved/accepted him and wants to help, out of his life and keep those who don't give or receive. He had no answer and became incredibly sad.
I don't know anymore. I don't think I can reach him. He's admitted to not knowing the full ramifications of letting me go. But he's willing to risk it?


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

W- At this point he is.. Until he sees the big picture he will think running is the key. A rational person always wonders why another doesn't.. You will never understand cause you don't know where he is mentally. Not in a good place and he needs to battle this. All you can do is continue to show unconditional love. That means giving and not receiving anything. Love is hardest when somebody doesn't want it or show it back. It's the most painful..


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

LH, that is very true about most men are boys emotionally. Some women can be boys too and I'm just realizing that my w is one of them. She took after her irresponsible father who smothered her. 

W, LH has made some good points about J. And unfortunately it sounds like J and my w are similar in that they both were married before ran away from that one and still didn't fix themselves. And will be doing it again in the future over and over again until self realization hits them that it hasn't been their partners but themselves. As LH has said marriage is about giving up yourself for the partnership. Not losing yourself, but placing it second. 

Your J and my w aren't capable of doing that. Which does make them selfish.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

FA-- It's how people react when they are lost. It isn't gender specific. It's human nature. We blame first and expect more from other people before ourselves. This is why these patterns happen no matter the sex. One person say I am unhappy and YOU are at fault. Not what have I done to make me unhappy. This will forever be human nature. Now as the spouse we have to just be there and continue to show unconditional love. If it doesn't work out you will be better off in next relationship. Yet I firmly believe in EVERY relationship there will come a time where you will get your say. They will face it someday. It might be to late for you but it will happen.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

LH maybe we'll change your username to Yoda or something like that. You are right on the money.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

if I was yoda. I would be saying feeling you are not good. Wife take out door you will..


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Hmmmmmmmmmm.. Out door she may be. Feeling not good - so true.


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Loving Husband said:


> FA-- It's how people react when they are lost. It isn't gender specific. It's human nature. We blame first and expect more from other people before ourselves. This is why these patterns happen no matter the sex. One person say I am unhappy and YOU are at fault. Not what have I done to make me unhappy. This will forever be human nature. Now as the spouse we have to just be there and continue to show unconditional love. If it doesn't work out you will be better off in next relationship. Yet I firmly believe in EVERY relationship there will come a time where you will get your say. They will face it someday. It might be to late for you but it will happen.


I like your sense of humor LH and you too FA with the whole Yoda thing...it made me smile. However LH I'm not sure I understand what you said in the above...I agree that most times (I know I tend to do this) that when we are unhappy we blame others, have a hard time looking at what we can do to fix our unhappiness. However, I don't know about Wren, but for me...I have a hard time agreeing with the part where you said as the spouse we just have to be there and show unconditional love...isn't there a time when that just doesn't work. I really have some strong feelings for my H ( you know the saying there is a thin line bw love and hate and I think I'm in both of them right now) Everything that he has done...sometimes I think distance is better. I have stopped calling him stopped trying to make it work. I feel that if he wants to talk to his children he needs to call and if he wants it to work he should put forth effort as well.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

ash - you don't have to be there anymore - that's not what LH is saying - what he means is that you also need to take repsonsibility and not blame them - because that way you are looking after yourself - does this make sense ? Really just put it on the back burner if it doesn't = took me ages to understand this one -

ps sorry for speaking on your behalf LH! pleeeease correct me if I am off track...


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

J is not a yeller. Well, he yelled at me today.
He is making all these choices ( & hurting me in the process) because he wants/needs to be selfish and do "this" on his own.
When I asked what was "this," he said he doesn't know, doesn't understand. He cries himself to sleep every night and is soooo sorry that he is treating me so badly.

_So you choose to be selfish? And selfish=hurting me? Therefore, you choose to hurt me._ He didn't like that.

I don't know who this man is. And I don't understand why I love someone that chooses selfish over my pain. I would have waited, given him space, and supported his growth. What is this I have to do this alone crap about?

How many times do I have to be told by him or the universe that he doesn't love me before I finally let go?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I don't know Wren. I wish I did.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren, you'll let go when you don't love him - 
hugs to you 
K


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

What if I never stop loving him?
My love continues to grow in the midst of all the uncertainty and pain. WTH is wrong with me?


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

wren said:


> I don't know who this man is. And I don't understand why I love someone that chooses selfish over my pain. I would have waited, given him space, and supported his growth. What is this I have to do this alone crap about?
> 
> How many times do I have to be told by him or the universe that he doesn't love me before I finally let go?


Isn't this sick and twisted? I am in the same boat. If our friends treated us the way our H's or W's have, we'd drop them like a bad habit! 

My H has done some really mean and selfish things but yet I still feel like I should be nice to him. I still feel bad for him at times and I still love parts of him. But yet, I don't know who he is right now. It's like I'm holding on to this person who doesn't exist anymore.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

We love them more because we are looking at the good parts and ignoring the bad. 

We were left and we can only focus on the good! Isn't that ironic? 

Someone drops us like we are a hot potato and we love them more. 

I focused only on my H good qualities for 9-10 months. Of course, I ignored the flaws. Now...I don't focus on either. I just accept that he has both and can vasilate between good/bad at any time. 

I've done tha analysis for too long. I still love the good and the bad.

I recognize that if he doesn't want me then it's not healthy for me to chase my dreams.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

CW- That's how we begin relationships isn't it. We are in a high and overlook the bad.. It's funny how things go back to square one


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Sure is - you know guys I have realised something - I do still love my H whatever that word means these days - and i feel that I am beginning to accept my situation - but - at the same time the enormity of what he has done and is doing and how he has treated us and our life is also only just starting to hit me - I know that this may not make a whole lot of sense - but today was seriously the first time that I thought I would never ever want this man back -


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

That's probably a good sign thou don't you think K? Could be that you are moving through those 5 stages of grief...


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hey Ash - I guess it is good -
I know it must be much easier once you are clear you don't want them back - I have only had a glimmer of this - no resolve at all...but you are correct - it is a step


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

LH: Awesome insight...we are back at square one. Well, I guess I am moving away from those feelings now.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Day 6 of rain. I'm close to slitting my wrists. Just kidding- mostly.

The weird thing is: I don't see much of the good left in J anymore. I hardly recognize the narcissus that spews excuse after excuse. I'm not even sure I would take the person, he is now, back. But my soul feels married to his soul. It's almost like we're connected, not unhealthy enmeshed, at our cores. So, it feels wrong to not to share my life and love with him. I'm sure I did a horrible job of attempting to explain my feelings.

I packed up every photo, doo-dad, book, knick-knack, game etc. that belonged solely to him last night. This house is a tomb. And it was all left here with the pretense that he needed bare minimum in his apartment to work on himself. And then, he'd be back by the end of the year. So, I walk around here, look at his stuff, our stuff, and I can barely breathe. The house is bare and lonely- my personification.

I'm beyond sad. I'm walking wounded, today.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

W- keep your head high. It will only get better from here.. Trust me it can't get worse.. Try to think of things that make you happy. Go out. It makes a world of difference. Go shopping and buy yourself something. It has a way of making you feel better..


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Loving Husband said:


> W- keep your head high. It will only get better from here.. Trust me it can't get worse.. Try to think of things that make you happy. Go out. It makes a world of difference. Go shopping and buy yourself something. It has a way of making you feel better..



I keep thinking it can't get worse and then my heart breaks a little more!

I hate shopping but I do plan to start a baking binge this evening.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

There you go.. It will feel productive which will make you feel better..


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

baking is the best - let us know what you are making -


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Wren, it sounds like you are moving forward. I know it's slow going but you are doing well. 

Didn't you say earlier you were an artist? I'm not sure what type of artist but I have a suggestion for you. Since you said your house is feeling empty without J's things around, I think you should paint some art to hang on the walls! Just think, you could take out your anger using a brush and paint.

Later you can look back at your paintings and refer to them as "Wren's Angry J Hating Phase." 

Heck they might even fetch some money!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

My neighbor went out with J this evening. And I felt horribly betrayed. Why? Because they talk about him horribly, and never tell him. They only vent to me. So, it seems a bit two-faced that someone that's on "my side" can go out on the town with him. Maybe I'm being petty and immature. But I'm honest.

When he got back, his wife and I were on the porch. Of course, he offered nothing about his evening. Before he left he told his wife that he "might try to find out where J's head is right now." Will I ever know what happened? Probably not.

After that, his drunk wife proceeded to get in my face, tell me she will no coddle me, that I need to stop being the victim, face that J is never coming back, that I was stupid to stop working/trust that he would support my art, and stop listening to my therapist and just buck up.

I can honestly say that I no longer feel safe any other place in the world but this forum. I feel betrayed, unsafe, shamed, misunderstood, unloved, guilty, embarassed. And if I didn't have cats in my house right now, I honestly would slit my wrists in hopes of dying.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren: She was drunk and stupid! Don't expect much intelligence to come out of that. What a cold woman. How helpful was that?

Don't expect anything out of people that aren't supportive in a kind, healthy manner. Some people aren't capable. Stay away from them. 

Try to keep from talking about J. He will find himself or not. This is not your problem now. You are the most important thing now. 

The more you isolate yourself from others...the worse you are going to feel. Try to write your grief in a journal or poetry. Get it out. Of course this forum is similiar to that. 

Start thinking about the future and make up some goals. Something positive to look forward to and focus on. Write them down. If it's travel...write where. It's it's school or work or sky diving...write it down. Put some specifics. 

I know your read. I was addicted to self help books for a long while. Read one that is positive and uplifting. That is not made to help solve your problems but to provide encouragement.

I worry about you Wren...the suicidal statements. You have so much to live for but J is blocking your view of your life!

Hang in there...this going to get better little by little.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

W one of the single most hurtful moments in my last year was when my lovely sensitive smart sister told me (in desperation) that I was being a victim and that my problem was just that I had pinned all my happines on J. My counsellor sorted me out pretty quickly and I learnt that I just had to back away from my sister - 
in the case of your neighbour I am sure alcohol played a big part in her insensitivity - either way not useful is it? 

I am glad to say that I am back on solid footing with my sis - I think she just couldn't take listening to me anymore - everyone has their limits! 

You are gonna be ok 

I only that because I have felt so much of what you describe..but I find myself in another place -

I don't know how I got here but I did - if I knew I'd send you the map

we'd all like to be able to help you get through - is there anything we can do ? say? 

what do you think woud help you get through the most?

blue sky stuff - what has helped in the past when you have faced adversity and tough times?

what resources do you have? 

what light are you drawn to at the moment - what is it about those cats ? is it because they need you? 

if that is the case perhaps you could try connecting with some people who need you -


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

W- Giving somebody else the power to control your life is never good. This is your life not his. You offered it to him in marriage but if he doesn't want it, its time for you to take it back.. There are better days.. You will recover and be stronger. Just take a few deep breaths and relax. How did the baking go??


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Ignore the neighbor Wren, look at her through this lens...she is insensitive, was drunk, and maybe she has her own petty issues that she can't even deal with...when you are going through hell right now. Just please Wren get out there. Even if its just going for a walk outside. Do it for you even if you don't feel like it will help.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm going to stay with a friend this weekend. On Friday, I'm going to an equine therapy session. Equine Facilitated Psychotherapy (EFP) - information.


Some interesting events:
My grief therapist suggested I end my relationship with my regular therapist because he broke ethical rules when he called my doctored and suggested medication changes. She said he is not a psychiatrist and he's done this previous with her clients. I'm feeling mixed emotions about the situation but the story becomes even more interesting.
She told me she would only refer me to one local psychiatrist due to a lack of adaquate care. She spoke about one office that runs a "pharmacy mill full of overmedicated patients and a staff that lacks quality care." Guess the office connection? J's dr. and therapist- therefore my intuition was right. He is either overmedicated, wrongly medicated, and has wasted more than a year with a bad therapist. 
Does it change anything? No. When I informed him, he was angry and said he would get a referral for new care from my therapist this week. There are so many what if's, though. I just don't understand why things happen as they do.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

I don't know W. But they just do. Sometimes things are the way they are supposed to be I guess. We just have to accept and move on. Realizing that our pain is our own issue whether it is caused by a person or situation we find ourselves in. Sometimes the big guy just does that.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Your grief therapist was right on! This is a huge ethical break: 
1. Calling your doctor (no consent forms? HIPAA violation?
2. Recommending medication without an medical degree.

I would hate to be his/her liability company.

Run fast. I'm glad you took her advice Wren. That's all you need an unethical situation. Glad you told your H. 

I guess it won't change anything for him. That's ok..you did your part.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren - you out there ?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm here K. Thank you for caring.
The equine therapy was incredible.
But as soon as I returned home, I began to dread Thanksgiving and grief set in again.
How are you?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Sounds amazing I can only imagine...sounds like thanksgiving is going to be a toughie for a few people on this forum...
I am going pretty well I think all things considered thank you !
just staying up late and dancing around the kitchen tonight - oen of those mad euphoric times...


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

The thought of you dancing in the kitchen makes me smile. Thank you for that gift! On Thanksgiving, I will be thankful for you and my other gifts on this forum!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

why thank you! 
am dancing to this song my neice downloaded for me - 
and the chorus goes 
don't fight it
don't fight it'
don't fight it if you don't know what it is ...that's how i feel about stuff


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

hey K and wren...

my daughter introduced me to this little dancing song. enjoy....

YouTube - Sit On You [popozion]


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Hey Wren!! Its nice to see you on here! Hang in there Wren, your taking it a day at a time!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

thanks for that D8zed !


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

D8zd! That's way too much crotch action for that guy! haha

It's great, Wren, that the equine therapy was a blast! 

I think we all are dreading Thanksgiving. 

I am trying to focus on what I have to be thankful for....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

J came over last night to set up the laptop he bought me. 
What do you do when your love continues to grow, in spite of the pain? And you fall in love deeper when you see him?
It's hard to explain. My soul sees his soul, through all the walls, damage, wounds. No matter what the wall is between us, I will always love this man. I just don't know how to stop it. Maybe I can't. I just have to accept we aren't together. I must let go of the outcome and just be.

My parents chose to spend Thanksgiving with my brother and his family instead of me. I chose not to go over there because my mother resents not having Thanksgiving at her home. And she'll be passive aggressive and my dad will be peace at all costs. I don't need the negative energy. So, I invited my neighbor couple that are hardly speaking to each other or me. Happy Thanksgiving to me.

I'm just trying to do the best I can, even though it feels pathetic.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren: I don't think you can do anything about loving your H. There are no right or wrong answers. 

In these circumstances when there is no OW or abuse or addiction...it's easy to see the person that you love. Even when they have chosen to leave. I feel this way also. 

It's a good move to invite the neighbors...maybe they will be entertaining in some way??? haha.

You aren't pathetic just feeling the pain. It sucks.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Yep, Wren, I know these feelings. Two weeks ago I saw my H in person for the first time in a month. All of these old feelings surfaced again. I even thought, "I can forgive him for all of the things he's done wrong if he'd just come back to me." 

Simply crazy! 

I firmly believe we are in love with a person that no longer exists. Your H has changed and is no longer the same man you fell in love with. It is so hard to realize and accept that. I'm having the same problem. 

Spend your Thanksgiving being thankful for your health and your strength to find support and move forward.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Wren- Your just seeing the good side cause you want your marriage back. I don't blame you.. Just try and look for the positives..


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I respectfully disagree. This loss has taught me unconditional love. I see all that J is- flaws, challenges, darkness, and light. And I love him all the more. I accept him as he is now.
I regret that it took losing him to learn how to love. I was never taught by family. I guess I need to give my thanks to the loss for the gift.

I'm really having a hard time pulling myself out of the deep depression the holiday is bringing up for me. How are you guys dealing??


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Wren, I'm enjoying a visit with my brother, his wife and their kids with my son. It helps for sure. I laugh that my w was going to go to WV Friday with our son, but isn't now. She will be all alone during the holidays - unless OM2 visits.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm glad you will be with loved ones, FA!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren: Feeling Thanksgiving for a week! Tomorrow..I will start my new tradition. I could have handled being with the regular family (his side/my side) but I didn't want to. I was thinking of myself. I will not apologize for that...I figured why pretend with the regular fanfare. 

If it weren't for my D...I would be tempted to do nothing. However, I have many things to be thankful for and I plan to focus only on those.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

My holiday email from J:


"I hope you have a happy thanksgiving. I have to go by office on my way out of down to drop of documentation from last night's fix in Production and then I'll be on the road.

Please take care and be well!"

J does not talk like that, especially to people he knows.
I allowed myself to grieve all day yesterday after I read it. 

Today: I can be be grateful for the pain because I know the caterpillar feels the same.

My goal? Find gratitude in the small things. Make the best of my small dinner. And start my detachment all over again.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

W there is a song I love and it is about big resolutions and little resolutions:

and the chorus goes 

big resolutions are so easy to break - I don't want to hear about your big resolutions 

I think about this a lot - and work on the little things each day as well


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren: It made me a bit angry when I spoke with my H and he told me he wished me a Happy Thanksgiving! I almost laughed and then was angry. I thought...oh happy day alright! Break up our family and tell me "have a nice day!" What a joke.

Same with your H...Wren.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I am so glad Thanksgiving is over!

I was so angry for most of the day. Mad at J for going to see his family, when there has been little communication throughout the last year. But I'm sure they acted like everything is fine and I wasn't even mentioned. His family still has not acknowledged me.

I didn't receive one text, email, or phonecall from my family to make sure I was okay, to ask if I needed anything, etc.

And my dinner was spent refereeing my neighbor couple. And talking to their friend about codependency. 

Thanksgiving made me realize that I need to leave my home, get away from J's access, my triangular dysfunction with the neighbors, and matchmy family's emotional unavailability with physical unavailability.

How to do it? I don't know. I'm so physically and emotionally exhausted. I can't even explain it.


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## noideato20 (Oct 27, 2009)

Wren. Im no idea which means no idea if ill make it to twenty year anniv. I now know the answer to that is a resounding no. I was up last night reading through you and corpus wifes post. Just wanted to let yall know that helped me to see alot of posts I could have written myself. I too am glad Thanksgiving is over. I am waiting for my H to move hopefully monday. Its too hard to keep looking at him. Thankyou for sharing .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Wren, I wish you weren't in pain. I wish you could snap your fingers and make it go away. I understand when you say you love him even more. Even more with all those flaws and with everything that he has done...

I have a question:

Wren, before you were going through this pain...what were you like? What were/are you like when everything is right in your life? What's your personality? What would make you laugh, etc?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren: I think just taking things in steps and not letting the big picture overwhelm us. That's the key. 

Once you start taking action. You begin feeling better. You say you want to leave your home. It might be a healthy thing for you. Not sure what your job skills are but could you leave to another part of the state or country to find work? Maybe that would be a fresh start for you. Just thinking.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

W - there are people who care and who understand - they just happen to be here in anonymousland - weird but true - 
how can we help you ? nothing seems more important in my life at the moment than reaching out to you guys and supporting you however I can - what's the plan????


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I want to thank everyone for the participation in this thread! Without this forum, I would have pulled out my hair by now.

I am a work in progress. And I am allowing the rest of the year to be my last wallow of grief. In January, I will create a new thread with news of where my life is leading me.

I am creating options for plans right now. Having options gives me hope that I will not be stuck in this hell forever.

I finally unleashed a very healing anger and told J I will not be his friend. And after the new year, we'll divide assets and I will say goodbye to my life with him forever.

My healing quine therapy showed me that when I am in the center of the arena, which represents my authentic essence, I am whole. I may be full of grief but I am not less valuable or worthy of what I want or need. J can not or will not give me what I deserve therefore I am walking away from that part of me that is drawn to him.

Christmas, in all honesty, will make Thanksgiving looks like a cakewalk. J taught me how to be a kid at the holidays again and we have very loving memories together. He will go back home, where I am not mentioned and our divorced isn't discussed, and he'll continue living in a dysfunctional, inauthentic life. Though I will be pained and aching for the past, at least I will be authentic.

I'm proud of my recovery. It's never a straight line. My bumpy ride has shown me that I can heal my wounds, without a person walking with me in life. I will learn to have a love affair with someone very lovable and worthy- me.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

BRAVO!!! Lots of positive energy in your post.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

W I am with D8zed - you have a very fiery strength - and - I would not like to be J at this moment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
ok so Christimas is going to kill us agreed?? what will we do to help us make it through -
anon-o-e-cards????? 
sorry this is lame as - anyone anything????


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

thanks D8zed and K!

Well, we will just be here for each other. We'll make it, together!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren...you are fiesty in your post. I LOVE IT!!!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

You guys would be proud. J came over to bring me some paperwork and to divide up the Christmas ornaments. Was it necessary? Nope. But up until this point, I have been the one to deal with the division, decisions, conversations regarding the future, etc. I want to decorate a tree but didn't want to suffer the pain of seeing his and our ornaments alone. He said he never thought about dividing things up!
Of course not, in J's world, you don't think or deal with anyone/anything outside yourself.
We divided things up quickly. I spoke about the house work that needs to be done before we put it on the market. I told him that he will be taking half of the responsibility for our personal cats.
He cried. He actually sat there and cried. Said he was sad. Boohooo!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Thats great Wren.. Let him see the fall out.. Too many times the run away spouse doesn't see the chaos left.. This is the start of him seeing it.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

wren said:


> Of course not, in J's world, you don't think or deal with anyone/anything outside yourself.


I love this line. And boy can I relate. 

It took this divorce for me to realize how my H is so very selfish and self centered.

I am so proud of you Wren. It seems you've gained some clarity and you're moving forward!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm trying so hard guys, but then I have days of setbacks. I try to forgive myself because I know the road of recovery is not a straight line.
I went out tonight and ended up at a dance club. This sleezy guy tried to pick me up and all I could think of was I wish J was there. 
I don't want to be single. I don't want to date.
And now that I'm home, I just miss him and feel a deep sadness. I hate it. I was feeling so strong!
Damn this grief!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

It's ok Wren but at least you got out.. It will get easier and easier everytime.. Keep pluging away and soon you'll be looking forward to meeting somebody. This is just telling you that your heart isn't ready to move on..


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

LH is right that it does get easier. You may not be clear of J for along time (in your head). 

Last night, I went out and had flashbacks of wishing my H was there. I wonder if he has the same?

It's good that you got out though.


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Wren that is normal. Even on my date, even though I had fun and it wasn't serious at all...I did think of him time to time and when I got home and into bed, wasn't my date I was thinking about it was my H. It will get easier, the load will become lighter. Pretty soon as you continue to go out and make friends and interact with different people, your perspective will open up, it will Wren.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I really feel it's time to focus on me and learn to love me. I am becoming more of myself through the grief. I am learning what I will and will not accept into my life. I really want a love affair with myself.

I'm not being dramatic when I say I really do not want to date and I don't see myself ever dipping into the single world as you can Ash. You are young and full of zest. I'm on the way to 40 and ready to nest, even if it's alone.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Wren, I don't think there is anything wrong with loving yourself and being single. In fact, I think I need to learn how to be single and happy before I consider dating again. 

You don't have to have a man/woman in your life to make you feel complete.


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Good point Mls. Besides if one can't even love/be happy with themselves how could someone else do that for you? You know yourself best, until we are comfortable in our own skin sometimes this alone time is the best remedy!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

You don't need a man or women to feel complete but you don't want to shut down that part of your life. Something about giving to somebody else that realy picks up the spirits. When you are ready though.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren you are much stronger then when this breakup first happened. It's been a short time although it feels longer. In another, 6 months you will be in an even better place than now. I can see the progression.

Sometimes, I feel as if I haven't made much headway. Then, I pause and look back. Whew! I have and I NEVER want to go back to that place again.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Just liking yourself is a good start...........( I am talking to myself here not you Wren!) But I think just letting myself be drawn to the things that you love in life is where I am trying to start. I am hoping that it will end in a love in of sorts...


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I have come a long way since June. Wow, it's been six months. I didn't even realize it until I typed six. He said he'd been home by now and I'm okay that he's not. I'm starting to feel a bit sorry for him. He's alone and detached from emotions, in general.

I was sad yesterday as I put up the porch Christmas tree and watched the Christmas parade with J. But I did it anyway.
I don't think I'll be able to put up the inside tree because it's decorated with the personal ornaments. I just feel like my heart's too raw to look at that. But at least I decorated the outside of the house. For a while, I wondered if I could manage that.
I still miss him so much. And I hate it because he doesn't deserve my heart.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It's good to do what you can and want for the holidays. That's how I managed this year. I have modified Christmas. I haven't purchased presents or had the motivation to think. I'm not buying much.


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Work on it a little by little Wren. Do with yourself what you did with your house. You decorated the outside but not the inside yet. Same with you. Try to keep yourself strong on the outside even when the inside is breaking. Because sooner or later the outside lights and decorations will look so pretty and so good that you may just be inspired to do up the inside as well! Your doing great.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Great therapy session today! She reminded me of how much I have grown through this painful process. I can actually live alone, take care of myself and a lot of other things. I feel like if I can make it through all this heartache, limbo, and BS...I can do anything I put my mind and heart towards.

I listened to Christmas tunes tonight and put up a few decorations in the house!

I started listing items on ebay and half.com to generate some money for a car, since I'm without a job.

I'm sad at times but I'm moving forward. I am!


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes. Wren you are moving forward. Your words are much more positive in tone and have strength. I am proud of you...We will still have sad times but we won't be down for long.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

anything that your x left behind that you can make a tidy profit on?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Yes, CW. I do still have my moments of grief. Like this morning, I was addressing Christmas cards and I broke down. But my moments don't last all day like months ago.

HA! K, I have been mulling over that idea.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

I would take anything you can to sell and make some money.. if it's in your house its yours right??


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Sales are going well.

I, however, am eh. I don't know if it's PMS, the constant reminder of the holiday season, NC, or my seasonal depression kicking in but I am really struggling again today. I miss J and I am forcing myself, literally, not to contact him. 

It won't change things. I won't feel better. I can miss him, be sad, and be okay right? This too shall pass. This too shall pass.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Great that you are making some cash...
W I have a number of things I do 'not' to contact my H.
I have a dea friend who I call (sometimes)
I add to my "anger" letter on the computer 
last night I was so sad I invited a family over - and ended up with 4 boys to look after! (I wouldn't advise this one)
and, then every now and then (although only once in the last few months) I actually call him and let it out.

Not sure it does any good - and last time I did it I regretted it (and so won't be doing it again I don't think)....

But only because I had to listen to his crap again and feel pathetic again - and he rang me back because he was 'worried' about me ....

It would seem to me Wren that you are in a place where you really don't want to contact him - except perhaps to have a 'controlled' conversation - not an emotional outburst....and you can afford to maintain NC......

I guess what I am saying is that you could contact him - and it will even make you feel something 'different' while you are talking to him - it will break the pain. But when you hang up the pain will still be there - once the adenelin leaves your body...

so I think you are correct you won't feel better..just different and after maybe worse for a while....

K


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## betrayed81 (Dec 11, 2009)

I say dont call him you will feel worst than before you called him, if you keep barging ahead i think not only will the pain completley subside, you may end up meetin some one when you least expect it!

I feel for you and know its way easier said than done but focus on you and only positive things can happen from there, you will have twice as hard time movin ahead if you call!
hope that helps


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

It will pass. Remember the reasons NOT to contact him. It will make you feel worse and it won't change a thing.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Wren If you did contact him it would be like an addict getting a high. At first you would feel good but after you got off phone you would feel like crap.. Cause nothing was accomplished and you allowed your hopes to get up..


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I haven't contacted him and the missing him hasn't lessened. I don't understand what's going on for me. I've been staying busy. I've been out of the house every day. Went out of town for the day with a few friends to go antique shopping and had dinner. But my mind stayed on J. I don't WTH is wrong with me.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren - there is nothing wrong with you - I am the same most of the time - of course my reasoning may be flawed - maybe there is something wrong with both of us ! But I don't think so - other than being broken hearted and missing someone we love....

I love your other thread by the way...


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I miss my H dearly! I would love for him to come back to me in a better condition. However, I am no longer beating my head against the wall. I will miss him. I love him. I can't have him. That's ok. It has to be.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Cried all night again. Woke up crying in the middle of the night.
Deep-set grief is the pits. J will be at the same meeting tonight. I dread seeing him and I am so afraid I will start crying.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Wren- Be strong. Hold your outerself in good spirits. It will help.. You can do it..


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Well, I didn't manage to stop the waterworks. J came by before the 
meeting to discuss Christmas gift budgets. He wanted to assure me that I shouldn't worry about spending money buying gifts.
All I could do was cry. We walked to the meeting and sat together. It felt like old times. When he hugged me goodbye, it felt like 1000 knives were shoved into my heart.
I cried all night and all morning. I still love this man. And he doesn't love me. It's not lessening. What am I going to do with all this pain? The holidays are killing me.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Wren, you need to decide to let the pain go. Carrying it around is killing you. Only you can decide to do it. I know it is hard -- trust me on that one -- but you can do this for yourself. J can't and won't do it. Pain is just an emotion like anger or love - walk through it. Write out your pain in letter form, read it and throw it away. The pain is from the past -- not your future.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I don't know how to let it go, FA. It's a foreign concept to me.
I've written goodbye letters and burned them. I've packed away all his stuff, our stuff. I just ache and it seems no matter what I do, it doesn't lessen. Some days, I'm better at handling it and functioning. But during these holidays, I can't seem to do anything but ache. How do I walk through it and let it go?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

You have to detach from J Wren. Realize no matter how much you want him - that you have no control over him whatsoever and you never did. He is human like you and makes mistakes. You've just got to let go -- of the image of him. I make sure I remember the things my w didn't do for me - her cons. Also when I find myself drifting to thinking of her I put up a mental stop sign in my head -- stop - move on to something about me. That's all I got. Detaching is the key.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren:

Do you have to go to these meetings? What if you didn't go? What if you requested for him not to go? Or take turns.

If it hurts too bad, why do it?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

We are the petitioners and in charge of the process. There is hopefully only one more meeting in January and the designation will be done. What's happened is a lot of our community involvement was a joint effort and can't not be joint until tasks are accomplished. I've resigned from two boards already, which leaves me isolated more. My therapist has told me that I'm continuing to caretake if I leave my organizations just because J is there. In order for to detach, I must be able to coexist and not disappear because it's painful. But I don't know how to not feel the pain. There is little to no contact. I don't what else I can do to detach at this point until the house is sold.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I understand what your counselor is saying. 

I'm glad that there isn't many more meetings.

You can not stop the pain. You are doing well. You will have weak points. Just ask me-crying in a bathroom stall at Taco Bell (2) days ago!

The Marines have a saying.."pain is weakness leaving the body." I think it applies to us...


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Does detach mean to not hurt?
I guess I am confused as to what I'm doing wrong. Or rather what I can do better?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren, I feel for you....
I am with CW - I'd limit the contact to zero and no hugs and sitting together - if it were me this would intensify the pain immensely. I only do text message and email with my H and I don't look at him when I drop my kids off. It's a barrier that I put around for now until it doesn't hurt me anymore. Nothing is more important than you getting through this painful time - your civic obligations come 2nd. I am resigned to living with my pain for now - I treat it like a sore foot - and I also practice some of that re-training stuff FA is talking about - that's hard work as well - but it is worth trying. It's all hard anyway why not try that as well?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I just am not sure what your therapist means. Caretake? 
Don't look at your resignations as permanent - take a leave of absence because you can't do it FOR NOW. Join a new organisation in needs of your skills. Refocus your energies - stay away from him. You can't be friends now. Ask him to resign if you really don't want to. he ought to be the one doing this...these are all just suggestions - read them ignore them whatever...just find the best way to stay away from him. 
Seeing him - being on the same organisations opens wounds - you are in need of attention at the moment - look after yourself 1st.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I tend to agree with K. 

There are no right or wrong ways to get over heartbreak. Don't put so much pressure on yourself. 

What you write...the pattern is when you see him or plan on seeing him, the pain rises to the surface. Try your very best to plan things around him or take that leave of absence. Substitute that "stop by" for an email/text. 

Detaching, at first, has pain involved. Gradually, the pain lessens. Just when you think you are pain free.....it rears its ugly head. Not as intense as in the beginning. This is how it's been for me.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

My therapist thinks that if I am absent from events that possibly make J uncomfortable, sad, angry, etc. that I am caretaking for him as I did when we first separated. If I make an appearance, even if it's a short amount of time, she thinks it will become easier which each attempt.
You guys are right. When I see him, I pay for days afterwards. But the contact has lessened tremendously since October. And the holidays are causing the majority of my pain and sadness.

This is a small town. J and I are intertwined in many ways. Either I isolate myself to prevent increasing the already present pain? Or I suck it up, feel the pain, and go to this events anyways? I don't know.

This is why, even though it's ripping my soul apart, I know I have to move away. But I simply can't afford it until the house sells. Until then...I don't know.


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Well Wren I was thinking about you and your situation last night. I have said this before but I think in a sense I am lucky bc my H lives all the way in Texas, so I don't really have to worry about running into him at any events!

On that note Wren I was thinking about how strong you are. Really you are! Even though you hurt like hell and cry for days after you see him, you still make it through every day! No matter how much of a ****ty job YOU feel like your doing, your doing it!

And I know everyone else on here pretty much agrees with me. You have come a long way Wren, just keep that thought in you mind and keep plugging along. Things will get better WRen! They will!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Do you think it's becoming easier? 
In my experience things get easier and then harder, easier, harder - it's not a straight line - if I am up to it I will have more contact - or if I have to....but if I have to it's a major plan with support in place.
By this I mean I knew that I had to see my son get an award the other night and I knew he would be there so I took a friend.

And I have to see my H on XMAS day - so I am planning it well now and working out who is going to debrief with me afterwards....
I try and leave nothing to chance.

Is there a way that you can bumper your contact moments with friends and de-brief sessions either side?

It is just highly emotional and difficult - I figure it is going to hurt when I see my H for a long long time - so I just accept that and try and be kind to myself about it - 

Ash is right Wren, you are doing it....


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm not doing it. I lost my fu*king mind today. I actually sent J an email and begged him back.

"I can't do that, not now. Because I'm going down this path. Because all the reasons we've talked about still hold true for me. I know going through the Holidays and dealing with the loss of us is very difficult and extremely painful. I struggle too."

I said ok. I hope you find what you want on your path. Take care.

Since then, I have cleaned and polished and cried and screamed and burned photos.

I think I'm having a breakdown! Or is it a breakthrough? Or maybe I need to be committed.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren 
You are not having a breakdown - you are way too lucid - way too lucid....they have free will we can't mess with that -
it sucks 
you are just in a difficult lonely place right now - but screaming and burning photos sounds like a truly excellent way of dealing with it Wren- 

scream some more -
K


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

That was a good end to it Wren. Just do what you need to do for yourself. Detaching is the emotional part - when you stop wondering about what they are doing or thinking.

We all have to remember we can't read people's minds. It is always bad to do that.

Listen to what Ash said, you are doing it.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Wren- Do what you have to in order to keep your sanity. I know it's hard.. The holidays are a bear for relationships. It reminds us of what we had more. Hand in there and try and focus on yourself. Go out and buy yourself something for the holidays.. You'll make it through.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren...I did that a month ago via phone!

I felt so freakin pitiful!!! No other way to describe it!

Don't worry about caretaking your husband. Worry about caretaking you and what is best for you. If anything benefits you, then do it! IF NOT...stay away! You can always start things back again.

Find OTHER things to do=new things! For now.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I broke down and contacted him again today. A good friend of ours was diagnosed with breast cancer. The reason we moved here 3.5 yrs ago is because my dad was diagnosed with cancer. So I starting feeling more loss and fear. And I sent him an email.

We had a long email exchange about how I feel like I am losing everything while he loses nothing. I feel like my grief will never end because when the house is sold, I will grieve. When we split up our pets, I'll grieve. When I move, I'll lose what roots I've placed here and grieve. It's this neverending cycle of loss and grief that I can't seem to shake. Just when I feel like I'm gaining strength, something happens that reminds me that my entire life has been changed forever.
I feel lost, alone, scared, and not sure if I'm going to make it to the other side without being completely damaged. I'm hopeful this is my depression typing and when I see my therapist on Monday, she will reassure me that I'm okay.

I guess, in reality, I can't seem to lift my head out of this immense sadness. I can now relate to people on the other end of the phone when I did my internship at a crisis center. The holidays were a nightmare for the counselors and the clients. I now see why.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

This week will be especially tough for those who have loss.

How does the contacting J benefit you?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren, it is depression talking...you know it - logically that is. 

can you notice what helps you out of this and what makes it worse? 

These holidays aren't a lot of fun for us. 

Try just choosing to get through each moment and then the next. 

We will get through - but just be gentle and kind to yourself.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Contacting J helps for a little while until it sets in that he's really not here for me. He's being a nice guy that reacts to guilt and attempts to soothe himself by soothing me.
But I literally have been abandoned by everyone else but this forum as of lately. So I run to J when the pain becomes so great that I panic.
I'm alone and scared, guys. I have called and reached out to everyone I know that's in the area. No one is there.
I just have to hold on until Monday when I see my therapist. Ive reverted back to trying to beat my goal of how long I can go between crying fits. 
It is the depression. I know it. December was always a hard month for me because my rape happened, the loss of my first love, and some other tough events. So, I'm often triggered. When J came into my life, he made me see the holidays like a child again. And now, that's gone. The depression is severe right now. I'll bounce back hopefully. If I can just get through until Monday. I'll just keep checking in here and loving my cats.


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Wren I can relate to some of what you say...I have labeled some months as "hard" months because of everything that has happened to me in those certain times. You have had a bout of depression before corrent? (If any of this is overstepping personal lines please let me know and feel free not to answer) Are you currently taking anything for it or how are you helping it? 

I know you feel as if you have gone backwards but you have the right attitude Wren, simply bc of your comments that you are back to just getting from one crying bout to another and to waiting until Monday. Hold on Wren and just make it through the day and another one will come.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Yes Ash, I've a history of depression and panic disorder. Since the separation, now divorce, add in agoraphobia to the mix. The meds and therapy help. But the holidays are sending me into a tailspin. I just have to breathe and take it minute by minute. I know this, intellectually. Emotionally, the pain becomes overwhelming and I start looking for ways to escape- that's the self-destructive part of me.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren, 
pain makes us all crazy - every last one of us -
I am glad that you can reflect on your situation so lucidly though. You have good reason to feel sad.
The next lucid thing you need to do is just remind yourself that contacting him doesn't ease the pain. 
You already know this. 
He can't be the one who is allowed to offer comfort right now. He is the familiar source of this for you - but you will find others. 
I can't imagine that if I was your friend and I was near you and you communicated to me that I needed some support that I wouldn't be there for you.
I know people even good friends find it hard to stay with the pain. But I also know that I have imagined that people can't stand to be with me when really they are fine. They don't know what to do or to say but they are fine....can you grab yourself when you are feeling ok to call people and just timetable them in over the next couple of weeks ? 
I also know first hand that it is hard when you feel so needy.
But just put yourself in their position. Wouldn't you hate to think that someone who was close to you who was struggling didn't feel that they could pick up the phone and say I need you - you don't have to say anything - in fact it is better that you don't but I just need to spend some time with someone?

What I have learnt is that they won't offer. Don't know why. We don't deal well collectively with pain in our culture? 
But I also know that if I can get over the bit of having to keep on asking they are fine. It doesn't fix anything....but it is better (for me at least) than sitting alone crying.

I know I keep on saying this but please try and be gentle with yourself. Be gentle with the part of yourself that keeps on wanting to contact J. That doesn't necessarily mean contacting him - it is just a matter of saying I understand why you want to do that - but it's not a good idea for now....

take care - 
K


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

That's the thing K. I have reached out, called, emailed, asked for help. Nothing.

I am alone. I really am. 

And our anniversary is the 23rd. Add that to more pain.

I'm not going to contact him anymore. I'll just write what I'd say instead and keep it to myself.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

I just want you to know I'm thinking of you Wren. 

Keep posting here. We're all here to listen to whatever you are feeling or thinking. We won't turn our backs.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Hang in there Wren...

Have you thought about after the holidays. What are some things that you want to do...positive steps toward your independence.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

the storm that's blowing through the carolinas destroyed my porch Christmas tree. More than half of my ornaments were broken. I found it in three pieces, mangled, and broken. I fell on the floor and cried for my tree. And then I realized I was crying for me. I feel just like that tree looked. I'm sick of it. I seriously thought maybe it was a sign and that I should just give up. So I called my parents and three friends. No one answered. I logged on here to keep myself from cutting. If severe honesty offends anyone, I apologize. I'm in a very bad place and noone is answering my call for help.
I'm scared I'm not going to make it through the night. The panic has set in and the meds aren't helping.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren we are here - we are 
hang in there for us


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren:

Release your pain in another way! The pain is great and cutting, as you know, is temporary release of the pain. THIS intense pain is temporary as well! You will make it through...we want to help. 

Here are some numbers for the Suicide hotline (national numbers):

1-800-784-2433
1-800-273-8255

And their website: USA NATIONAL Suicide & Crisis Hotlines - When You Feel You Can't Go On... Call a Suicide Hotline. / SuicideHotlines.com - Direction for immediate crisis intervention for the gravely suicidal & treatment for major clinical suicidal depression.

That Christmas tree was symbolic of how damaged you feel. It can all be replaced to become a brighter, stronger tree. 

Don't be alone Wren. I know you have nieces and nephews, can one of them come over and hang out with you and watch a silly comedy! Maybe do makeup/nails (the niece). Even if this is something you wouldn't normally do-invite anyway. 

Can you list some things, in the past, that have helped you overcome the panic?


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Wren hang in there. I know you can do it! I know it!. Reread what CW wrote above anytime you feel like you can't go on. And post here, all the time if you have too!! But please, no matter how bad you feel remember that your life is valuable. You are special! He didn't make you! You may think that now, but he didn't!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren - hows it going?


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Hey wren just checking in...how you doing? Hey I never asked you about your cats...how many do you have?


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Thinking of you Wren. 

Feel free to tell us what your thinking and what you've been up to. We are here for you.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thank you for checking on me. I'm alive, but that's about it.
Today would have been our 7 year anniversary. He leaves to go spend Christmas with his "family," the same people who spewed I love yous but haven't given me one word of love during this nightmare. I even had hope I would receive a Christmas card or email, giving they are good, Christian people.
Just as my therapist said on Monday, "I don't understand why these people are emotionally unavailable. And the aching pain of abandonment is everpresent once again. I want you to know that it's not you that's unworthy of love. Hold onto faith, even though you are tired and weary."

We both cried as she hugged me and gave me her pager number.

Yes, I'm alive. For now, that's all I can muster.

Thank you all for caring. And keep up the faith.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hey Wren! 
glad that you posted. it is a tough time of year for us eh?
what plans for Christmas day?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren:

Humans and their freakin flaws! Some understandable...some not.

It's dissappointing when those that you loved and loved you are now distant. Who knows why? 

You are alive!! Sometimes it's all that a person can muster, at this point.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Yes wren hang in there I know theses are the tough times. Don't worry about his side. Understand their first allegence is to your husband. They also might not want to get involved in fear of damaging it more. My sister and brother stayed out of it. Just listened to me vent... There for me.


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Thinking of you Wren...Merry Christmas!! Keep up the posts!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hey miss Wren - what's up?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Before J left on the the 23rd, our 7th anniversary, he stopped by "because he wanted to see me before he left," more of his NG stuff- guilt. We hugged hard and cried.

I cried for another hour and straightened myself up. Went to my neighbors to wrap presents for the neighborhood kids. And my phone rings. J was is in an accident. He says, " please don't yell at me. I know I'm stupid,"- he can hardly speak from crying so hard- " I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. This is going to cost us a fortune."

No one was hurt, thankfully. I told him I didn't car about a rental car and we would handle that later. He was acting like a little boy that was scared to tell his mother he'd done something wrong. And it broke my friggin' heart. I assured him he would be okay. And I told him I loved him. He said thank you.

He said thank you.

He called me on Christmas to tell me Merry Christmas. He said he missed me. I told I loved him again through hard crying. He said he knows.

The rest of my holiday was equally as horrible. I'm alive. But that's about it.


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## ZoeCat (Nov 20, 2009)

Wren - I started reading your thread today. I can't stop crying for you or for me. So much of what you've been going through mirrors my own situation. I am so alone and scared. I can't talk to my parents about what's going on and I'm an only child so there are no siblings or other family (and the in-laws certaintly haven't contacted me). Last night, I was feeling brave and telling myself "I'm okay. I don't need him". But this morning, I am back to this dull ache of pain. 

Wren & everyone else, I am trying to learn from all of your experiences. You all are so strong & have so much great advice to give. Thank you for being there - I feel a little less alone.

Wren -I don't have any advice to give but please be strong and know I'm thinking about you.


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Thanks zoe. I do know the pain of isolation. There are moments that I wonder if I can make it through the process without more support. I do have a great therapist, thankfully.

J called me on his way home. He was emotional and was crying when we said goodbye. He told me he would let me know when he got back into town. I had this fantasy of him showing up and telling me he was a fool and that the holidays showed him that he does love me.

Instead I got a "I made it back ok," text.

WTF is wrong with me?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren, hi
nothing wrong with you - nothing wring with wanting him back even expecting him back...we do want them back and will do for a while it seems - so hard to get over this stuff


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I know Wren...silly us wanting our H"s back. I want mine too.

Plus, the way they touch base gives us hope doesn't it?


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## lj2000 (Nov 24, 2009)

Why do they touch base if they're on their way out the door? Is this common? Has anyone on here had them touch base every day for months and months and months and still ultimately decide to divorce?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Bah. It's New Year's Eve.
But therapy was good yesterday. As long as I continue to give to J, without receiving, I am an enabler. They seek us out of selfish needs for comfort, safety, etc. but offer nothing in return. Why should he if he's accepted as is?
Therefore, neither of us really heal- leaving us in limbo. To let go in love would be the greatest gift to us both. That is my hope for the new year. I deserve it.
I have been virtually communicating with my high school coach and teacher for the past few days. I had the biggest crush on him in school as he's only 9 yrs. older. It's been nice to have the distraction and attention. His wife left him for another man earlier this year so he can empathize me and also laugh at our behaviors during the process.
He asked me to accompany he and his son to a friends house to watch a basketball game tonight, instead of being alone. But, the prospect scares me. why can't I just let go, and have some fun? I'd rather stew in my sadness? Ugh. I hate the holidays.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

So are you going?


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm too scared, K. There is a comfort in my sadness right now. And I think I am afraid if I smile too much or spend time around people not affiliated with J, that I am truly giving up and moving on. I know I need to do so but the idea of it scares me terribly. Does that make any sense?


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yep I know those feelings - 
but...it is just a few hours of your life -


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

True. But it would be me and bunch of strange boys!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

sounding more interesting by the minute - !!!!!!!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

But his 14 yr. old kid will be one of them!


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## Ash22 (Oct 21, 2009)

I think you should go Wren, it would be good!! And then you can let us know about it!!!!!!!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

but I haven't seen him since 1994!


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

So what. Don't fear the unknown anymore. Let J know you can move on without him. This isn't a life time decision -- just some fun time reconnecting with an old friend. Heck you might even enjoy yourself -- look out!!!!!!!1


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Can I handle enjoyment? I might implode or something. heh.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren: I GET IT! I was the same way, at one point, during this process. I wanted to hang on in case there was a turn around. I wanted my door to always be open to him.

Visiting a friend and watching a game doesn't mean that you will be lifetime partners. Keep that in mind. You are deserving of friendship and fun! 

What stay in a house, alone, and allow J to continue hurting you?

Go for it!


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I have been trying to get J to take the rest of his "stuff" and some of the cats since before Christmas. Finally he agreed to this weekend. He kept putting it off. So I left the house all day yesterday to give him access. I don't plan to see him any longer. And I do not contact him outside of household division emails/texts which are are.
I get a text giving me this "feel sorry for me" bs and asks if he can get the cats later. This is after I cried and mourned all week, knowing they would be gone Sunday night. I was pissed! But of course, dummy me said "ok. soon though." Now, I have to cry and mourn all over again. I should have said no, do as we agreed. 

When I got home, I saw he didn't even get everything! Gggrrrr!

In other news, I am sooooo glad I went on NYE.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wren don't do that to us!
details please


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

Well, it ended up being me, G, and his son. We watched a game and the three stoooges marathon. We laughed a lot.

We've communicated every day since then. And he made me dinner last night.

I think I may be dating?!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

WOW !

what an exciting turn of events


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm scared sh*tless, K. Scared, scared, scared.
I'm trying to breathe, let go, and have some fun. It's hard for me though because I have been rejected and hurt for so long now. I have a difficult time accepting kindness and attention.


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## mls31 (Aug 22, 2009)

Wow! Dinner!?! That's awesome. 

Take things slow, Wren. Don't get into anything serious just yet. Tell him up front that you've been through a very rough spot and need some time. 

However, enjoy the attention and the friendship!! You deserve a bright spot in your life right now.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Wren! Always share the good stuff with us! We need it. How fun. Enjoy the attention...you deserve it all! 

I love the way you are thinking...


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Yep agreed CW
just use the fear wisely as mls suggests -


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## wren (Aug 19, 2009)

I am feeling and it's bringing along anxiety. I really like this guy. And he feels safe. I am so afraid of screwing this up with overanalysis, being too clingy, or too aloof. I am so so so gunshy.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

W I am going to speak plainly and a little clinically 
what else do you expect?
I would be more worried if your weren't anxious about 'relationships'
take it easy or easier on yourself and in life...
take it slowly gently and if something develops maintain your independence 
this is just sensible now for all of us forever 
but particularly so now
what I am trying to say is appreciate the range of feelings that you are having now has expanded because you reached out to someone - yay - 
but of copurse because you haven't healed yet you will be cautious 
THIS IS A GOOD THING - 
all you need to do is learn to manage the range of feelings now .......
it's all positive.....


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