# What I've Learned in the Past Year - A good news story



## Marduk

I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed?_ Me._ Here’s what I learned:

*1.	Let her go.* You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

*2.	Set boundaries, and then stick to them.* I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

*3.	Be ok with losing her.* Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

*4.	Do my own thing.* I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

*5.	Be a father to our children.* Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

*6.	Get some buddies.* Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

*7.	Fight different.* Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

*8.	Act from a place of strength.* I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

*9.	Be decisive.* Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

*10.	Know what I want from life.* This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

*11.	Do more macho stuff.* Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a _man _ and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.

Thanks for everything!


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## Wonko

Awesome post. Very encouraging.


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## alphaomega

So awesome! I'm right there with you. 9 months for me and I'm a much better man! Awesome feeling, isn't it!
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/26967-does-feeling-ever-get-old-2.html#post352008



_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon

thanks Marduk, bookmarking this now (even though I've had to accept point #3 the hard way). Will come in handy either by myself or with a new partner some day.

As to taking care of business, I've realized I have been doing so much just not able to appreciate it. I've had help from IC seeing through the blurry bubble I've put around my head, and am finding a source of strength in me that has been buried for a long time, heck I don't think its even been fully unearthed until now.


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## Conrad

Some have tried to tell me this place "isn't real".

It may just be the most "real" place on earth.

Take a bow Marduk.

You will be ok - either way.


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## greenpearl

Marduk,

The list shows that you are becoming a confident man, a very confident man. 

When a man is confident, he is charming, women can feel it, and they need it! Women need to feel their men's charm so they become sexually aroused. 

Do all the things you list above, and still keep on being a good and faithful man, your wife is going to have this feeling one day: I am one of the luckiest women on this planet, I am so happy with him, I don't want to do anything silly to ruin what I have. 

I believe in relationship being controlling doesn't get you anywhere, but if you are confident and full of charm, your spouse is drawn by you automatically.


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## morituri

This definitely qualifies as a stickie. The lessons you learned and implemented are valuable not just for men but for women as well. Well done sir.


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## Entropy3000

morituri said:


> This definitely qualifies as a stickie. The lessons you learned and implemented are valuable not just for men but for women as well. Well done sir.


I second this. :smthumbup:


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## frustated

I have a lot of work to do.


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## Duke

Very good, I like it.



marduk said:


> *10.	Know what I want from life.*


Yes, this is the hardest one indeed. Important though, isn't it.


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## Lon

yes, #10 is a hard one for me, I definitely know HOW I want to live but what exactly I want from it is hard to even put in a context. For instance right now, I want a nap, tonight I want a good meal, beyond that I have no idea what I want. Am I supposed to plan it for until the end? And if it's not planned then how can you say you know what it is you want? Seriously, I'm not planning my life years into the future, when I want something I will schedule it in but I'd rather look at each option along the way as it comes.


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## disbelief

you don't want to know where my head was going as I read dig a big hole.

Excellent points.
Thanks
Dis


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## Deejo

Always appreciate when someone comes back and shares their story.

Wish you and your wife continued success.


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## IH8theFriendZone

This post just stole the #1 greatest post on this site from MEM's "Turning down the thermostat" post (sorry MEM  ).
Absolutely INVALUABLE post. Every male who is having problems with a lower sex drive wife needs to be referred to this post (and MEM's). 
Similarly, I just finished reading Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 and this post basically sums up that book pretty damm well.
Congratulations on your transformation...both in terms of self and marriage!


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## MEM2020

Marduk,
Truly fantastic post. This is what it highlights about YOU:
1. High level of self awareness
2. Exceptional emotional self control
3. Consistent use of variant 2 of the golden rule: Do unto others as they have been doing unto you
4. Deep understanding of female perception:
- They have an excellent radar for the "fear" of loss that so many men experience. You accepted she might leave and were ok with it. She could TELL you were ok with it. Scary for HER. 
- The priority they place on male handiness/car fixing/tree trimming etc.
- Their response to messages delivered with minimal verbiage and maximal tone/body langauge. They take THOSE messages to mean (I WILL do what I say). Lots of talking means "I want to know what YOU might do if I start going out with friends 3 nights a week". That is weak. Honey - we both know you are going to keep going out 3/week with friends, will you be angry at me if I do the same thing to you"? NO woman is going to respond well to that. 








marduk said:


> I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.
> 
> A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.
> 
> Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed?_ Me._ Here’s what I learned:
> 
> *1.	Let her go.* You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.
> 
> *2.	Set boundaries, and then stick to them.* I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.
> 
> *3.	Be ok with losing her.* Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.
> 
> *4.	Do my own thing.* I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…
> 
> *5.	Be a father to our children.* Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.
> 
> *6.	Get some buddies.* Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.
> 
> *7.	Fight different.* Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.
> 
> *8.	Act from a place of strength.* I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.
> 
> *9.	Be decisive.* Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.
> 
> *10.	Know what I want from life.* This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.
> 
> *11.	Do more macho stuff.* Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a _man _ and not one of her girlfriends.
> 
> So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.
> 
> Thanks for everything!


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## ConfusedinColumbus

Bloody fantastic post, spot on!


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## joshbjoshb

Wow great job. Thank you so much for sharing.

I am in such a bad spot that I don't want to initiate anything with my wife since I am so upset on her. I don't even care to have sex either. But I do try to act more manly and at least feel a bit better.

But since my job requires creativity - and my head is just not working... its a big tough though!


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## ManDup

marduk said:


> Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.


This was always true. Men have a much easier time fulfilling their needs and taking care of their financial business than women do after divorce. You just gave her space to realize this, whereas before she was spending all her time thinking about what it would do to you.


marduk said:


> *8.	Act from a place of strength.* I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.


Was just talking about this idea of accept it or fix it yesterday. My ex was an expert at concealing behavior she didn't want others to know about (illegal, or not socially acceptable such as cheating), but she never would change from doing those things. 

Now, of course, my daughter has picked up on this behavior and I will have a hard time talking to her about it, because saying or implying that her mother is a bad person is a non-starter with her (and I can appreciate that, as I would have trouble with someone talking bad about my mother).

My opinion is, if you are so ashamed of something that you must hide it, why do you continue to do it? Either be proud of what you do and share it, or stop doing it if it's so bad. Again this is a position of strength.


marduk said:


> *9.	Be decisive.* Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.


 I've done some of this with very good results. I need to be deliberate in doing this more.


marduk said:


> So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.
> 
> Thanks for everything!


Good stuff, thanks.


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## Renny

frustated said:


> I have a lot of work to do.


I feel the same way, I have progressed some and things are better but I have a long way to go.


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## cisco7931

I wish I've read this post 3 months ago, this could have saved my marriage from separation:



> 1.	Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.
> 
> 2.	Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.
> 
> 3.	Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.


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## Wishing

This sounds like you are on a good path. Instead of wallowing in your pity, you defined yourself and she took note. I like it.


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## morituri

bump


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## This is me

This is a great post. My nightmare started in May of this year and has slowly been im roving to the marriage we once had and hope to make it an even better one. Reading this post makes me see there is still more to do. I have learned so much, in great part to this website and those who participate here....Thank you!


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## elph

bump


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## Rick40

Excellent post!

I came to this forum seeking advice after having read a lot of marriage self-help type books, most of which just confused the hell out of me, since the advice they give often contradicts itself. This post was like a parting of the clouds for me! I can't thank you enough for posting this, I even printed it out to refer to over and again until I can say that I've reached the same goals.

Clear, concise and just plain excellent!


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## mr hillbilly

Thank you for this post.


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## nathaniel2518

great post. it must take a lot of planning? 
whenever i have made the effort with my wife and kids i am rewarded. why don't i make the effort more... i can't explain it even to myself.


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## tiredandout

Thanks you for sharing your story. It oozes confidence and self-awareness, and I congratulate you for having gone on this journey to redeem your masculinity and strength. I bet your wife loves it. 

I had to comment also because it appears you nailed one of the reasons why the balance in my marriage is off. 


> This was always true. Men have a much easier time fulfilling their needs and taking care of their financial business than women do after divorce.


Me and my husband both know, that I will be much better off, if a divorce would come to play. This causes me to feel stronger than him, him to feel intimidated and me to lose respect for him. In our case there is no easy way to turn it around. But this was a good discovery on your part — and good for me to realize too.


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## naga75

EXCELLENT.
i am on my way to the place where you are, by doing essentially exactly the same things.
still have a way to go but i am DEFINITELY seeing the change.
and it is a way better place than i have been in/with my marriage in a LONG time.
very hopeful and positive post.


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## Chaparral

bump


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## Gunthar

While there is a LOT of information out there on TAM, reading material such as No More Mr. Nice Guy, MMSL, etc., this has to be the BEST summary I have ever read!

Great job and many thanks for posting!

:smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup:


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## staystrong

What an amazing post. Wish I had read this a long time ago. Well done, mate.

:smthumbup: X 10


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## Thundarr

One of the best, most concise, pointed, wise posts that I've read. Thank you Marduk for sharing.


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## lpad

Thanks! I Just copied, pasted, printed and posted in my man cave, Okay with that I hope?


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## Marduk

lpad said:


> Thanks! I Just copied, pasted, printed and posted in my man cave, Okay with that I hope?


Have at 'er buddy!


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## Marduk

I happened to log back into the site a couple of days ago and was blown away by the response. Thanks to everyone for the positive feedback!

I thought I'd post a quick follow-up on year #2 with an update and what I've learned.

First off, the marriage is great. Really, really great. We fight very little, we're partners with the kids, and have a tremendous amount of respect and passion in the relationship. I can't take credit for all of that, my beautiful wife has also done a tremendous amount of work and it's paying off.

It hasn't been perfect though. It's very, very easy to fall off the wagon and very tough to get back on it. The minute I do, our relationship starts to slip, and I find that a big confirmation that I'm on the right path -- at least for the most part.

The two things I've had the hardest part with being consistent about are:

1. Getting some buddies. Work, family, and marriage get in the way and it's easy to let this slip down in the priority list. It's been months since I've had a real "guys night" -- something I've gotta get better at. As luck would have it, superbowl Sunday is up again soon so this should give me a good excuse to get off my ass and hang with the guys more. It's surprisingly hard to find good buddies that hang out and support each other like girls just seem to naturally do.

2. Acting from a place of strength. This is a tough one. The past year at work has been very stressful, and it's easy to bring this home and dump all my problems on my wife. Finding a balance between emotional openness and neediness is hard for me... what I've discovered is that I can talk about how I feel when I'm down -- just don't go on and on about it without looking weak, and don't debate what I'm feeling. Just communicate it. Closing the conversation with some kind of plan of attack seems to help; not just with our marriage, but with myself. If I absolutely need to whine or vent, I try to do it with my buddies. They'll have a beer, laugh, not judge, and when they've had enough they'll tell me to shut the hell up. I've learned to be very, very careful and deliberate about what emotional support to seek from my wife. It's easy to slide back into co-dependance. It's tough to always stand on your own, but maybe this is what buddies are for.

What else have I learned? 

To be really, really open with myself. Not in a vulnerable, wishy washy way, but in a "this is just the way it is" kind of way. When she asks what I'm thinking, or what is wrong, I just say it. I don't try to justify it, or be open to criticism, I just share who I really am. This is actually harder than I expected, because you actually have to know who you are and what's going on inside. And accept it. A trait I value in a man is directness, and this is something I'm working on. The line between discretion to save feelings and brutal honesty is a thin one, it's easy to hurt feelings. But the little white lies accumulate and it's easy to slide back into Mr Nice guy again. I'd rather answer the "is that girl attractive" question honestly but delicately than make up some BS that she knows is BS.

Exercise is really important. More important every day. It makes you feel good, it clears the head, boosts your self-esteem and makes you more attractive to your spouse. It's surprising how much a difference this one makes. It's hard to feel crappy about yourself and weak when you're not weak physically. This is something I've been hit and miss with over the past 6 months because of work stress, I'm getting back on that bandwagon now.

Stand on your own two feet. Sure marriage is a partnership but at the end of the day a husband and father needs to be relatively strong and independent. 

Ask for what you want. You’d be very surprised at what you can get just by asking for it. Be up front, clear, and tactful… and willing to hear “no.” But also be willing to hear “yes!”

On that note, something I've been working on is just taking what I want instead of asking permission. As long as it doesn't interfere with being a good husband or father, just take it. Need a night off with the boys? Take it. Need a weekend away (like the wife has done) take it. I'm learning to be guilt free... slowly. There's a lot of "dutiful husband" baggage I'm working through. We had a run in the other night because she wanted to go do something with her friends and I wanted to do something else... I folded and let her go. Wasn't the right choice to be the guy that gets walked over so others get what they want. It's easy to become the guy that keeps everything working and worries about everything but himself. That's gotta change.

I'm focusing on what I can control - myself!


----------



## Deejo

You're circumstances are inspiring to many others. And thanks for checking in and updating.

Wish you and yours much continued success.


----------



## Thundarr

Deejo said:


> You're circumstances are inspiring to many others. And thanks for checking in and updating.
> 
> Wish you and yours much continued success.


Yep. I bookmarked this thread the first time I read it. I've forgotten to reference it though.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Thank you, Marduk. This thread is so well explained it makes it easier to understand my faults and failings. I appreciate your openness and honesty. I am also bookmarking this thread. It should be required reading.

One of the important things I read was that you admit to not being perfect, but realize it and continue to work on yourself. That is inspiring.


----------



## Alias71

A fantastic post. I've had problems with my marriage for a while now but it's really come to a head in the past 6 months.
I remember reading this post a few months ago and liking it but felt that I wouldn't be able to implement the "letting go" bit. Now I feel ready.
I've seen so many people write about "manning up". It's an irritating term which meant nothing to me. I believe that this post gives those 2 words substance and a lot of it.


----------



## NotSleeping

I appreciate your story. For me I've just starting along this path about 1 month ago. Some success -- the wife has noticed, but no appreciable difference in our relationship yet.


----------



## Marduk

NotSleeping said:


> I appreciate your story. For me I've just starting along this path about 1 month ago. Some success -- the wife has noticed, but no appreciable difference in our relationship yet.


Keep it up buddy. Remember at the end of the day it's not for her. It's for you.

If you get a better marriage as a side effect great... but either way you'll probably be happier.


----------



## diwali123

Good for you! I find most of the alpha make stuff to be BS in my case as a woman but the older I get the more I appreciate a guy who knows how to fix things and just does it. Never thought Id be saying that. My ex would try to fix things and screwed it up and I just thought he was ridiculous. 
My H just does things, like Saturday I had a headache and laid down and when I got up he had installed the over head light in the dining room. It's so refreshing and attractive. 
My ex would lose his mind when the toilet backed up. I ended up cleaning it up and calling the plumber while he pouted and had a breakdown. 
After going through that, a man who takes care of business is so nice. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Silvr Surfer

Love this, and couldn't agree more. Very very close to what has worked for us.


----------



## Caribbean Man

marduk said:


> I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.
> 
> A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.
> 
> Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed?_ Me._ Here’s what I learned:
> 
> *1.	Let her go.* You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.
> 
> *2.	Set boundaries, and then stick to them.* I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.
> 
> *3.	Be ok with losing her.* Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.
> 
> *4.	Do my own thing.* I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…
> 
> *5.	Be a father to our children.* Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.
> 
> *6.	Get some buddies.* Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.
> 
> *7.	Fight different.* Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.
> 
> *8.	Act from a place of strength.* I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.
> 
> *9.	Be decisive.* Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.
> 
> *10.	Know what I want from life.* This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.
> 
> *11.	Do more macho stuff.* Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a _man _ and not one of her girlfriends.
> 
> So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.
> 
> Thanks for everything!


:iagree:
In short,
Be a real man, be_ your own_ man.
Stop allowing people to define what _your_ manhood is to you.


----------



## DesertRat1978

marduk said:


> I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.
> 
> A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.
> 
> Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed?_ Me._ Here’s what I learned:
> 
> *1.	Let her go.* You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.
> 
> *2.	Set boundaries, and then stick to them.* I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.
> 
> *3.	Be ok with losing her.* Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.
> 
> *4.	Do my own thing.* I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…
> 
> *5.	Be a father to our children.* Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.
> 
> *6.	Get some buddies.* Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.
> 
> *7.	Fight different.* Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.
> 
> *8.	Act from a place of strength.* I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.
> 
> *9.	Be decisive.* Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.
> 
> *10.	Know what I want from life.* This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.
> 
> *11.	Do more macho stuff.* Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a _man _ and not one of her girlfriends.
> 
> So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.
> 
> Thanks for everything!


There was something like this attempted on the Sex for Marriage thread. This is much more succinct and thought-provoking. Thanks for the post.


----------



## Marduk

Apologies if I'm reviving a zombie thread but I thought I'd do yet another check-in. 

What's gone well?

In short, everything. I have more muscle mass now then when I was 17. I'm up for another promotion at work, things are looking great there.

Life with the wife has been pretty fantastic. I won't lie, we've had some serious rocky patches but I'm slowly learning how difficult it must be to be a woman -- not only do you have the hormone BS that seems to dominate many women's life, but also the constant guilt and stress of motherhood, wifehood, and womanhood...

Not to let her off scott free. Damn, no.

What works in these inevitable tough times are boundaries and self-respect. She can hurt me, sure. But not as much as I can hurt myself, or allow myself to be hurt. As a consequence...

Love life great, sex life great, kids are great.

What I continually seem to have to re-learn is that I am not a special flower and neither is my wife. She's attracted to big muscles, decisiveness, and having my crap together. And to get these things and not to be overly available, I need to be in the company of other strong men more.

Over the winter months, I seem to come off a big alpha high of having a great life, being in killer shape, and having my wife chase after me... and kind of let things slide over the cold, long, winter.

I get comfortable. Lazy, even. I stop going out with the boys. I let date nights slide another few weeks, or don't put the effort in to do something exciting when we do.

The wife -- naturally -- becomes more blasé and distant; more grumpy, and starts planning girls nights and girls trips again.

And again I become a shocked, annoyed, resentful, little boy.

So I get back on the saddle. Date nights. Mix things up in the sack. Do more yardwork. Blast the biceps. Dump the spare tire. Go out with the boys more. Plan boy's trips away.

And, shockingly, the wife becomes first supportive, then annoyed, then hurt that I'm being checked out by other women and spending as much time as she is outside the marriage.

And then things get better again.

Ah, marriage. The husband (and likely the wife) is in the Sisyphus situation.

Onward and upward!


----------



## C123

Your recent post (in light of your original post) is more evidence that men and women are just completely different animals. It all falls on us (men), doesn't it? We are responsible for their happiness and how they feel about us. If we aren't constantly being alpha males, then they get turned off and "blase and distant". 

The real problem is that most of us were raised by women. These were women who may have loved their husbands, but also kind of hated their husbands for being too manly. This explains why so many of us 30-40 somethings are actually sensitive and in touch with our feelings. We were raised to be softies by women who were trying to create a new kind of man! I can't even count how many times my mom has said, "I'm so proud of you for being such a caring, sensitive husband and father!" 

Now our wives, who claimed to love how sensitive we were during the courtship, want us to be more manly and assertive. Then, when we do a 180, they might find us more sexually attractive, but they don't like us and our behavior as much. It's overwhelming.

I agree...I'm thrilled not to be a woman. The hormonal changes my wife deals with on a daily basis are dizzying.

But still...we're damned if we do and damned if we don't!

Good for you marduk. Keep up the good work!

FYI - this was all written with a smile on my face.


----------



## Marduk

C123 said:


> Your recent post (in light of your original post) is more evidence that men and women are just completely different animals. It all falls on us (men), doesn't it? We are responsible for their happiness and how they feel about us. If we aren't constantly being alpha males, then they get turned off and "blase and distant".
> 
> The real problem is that most of us were raised by women. These were women who may have loved their husbands, but also kind of hated their husbands for being too manly. This explains why so many of us 30-40 somethings are actually sensitive and in touch with our feelings. We were raised to be softies by women who were trying to create a new kind of man! I can't even count how many times my mom has said, "I'm so proud of you for being such a caring, sensitive husband and father!"
> 
> Now our wives, who claimed to love how sensitive we were during the courtship, want us to be more manly and assertive. Then, when we do a 180, they might find us more sexually attractive, but they don't like us and our behavior as much. It's overwhelming.
> 
> I agree...I'm thrilled not to be a woman. The hormonal changes my wife deals with on a daily basis are dizzying.
> 
> But still...we're damned if we do and damned if we don't!
> 
> Good for you marduk. Keep up the good work!
> 
> FYI - this was all written with a smile on my face.


What I've had to spend the last year learning (after also being raised by a single mother) is that there's a place between bearing all the burdens of being a man and realizing the inherent power of being a man. Damn, it's great being a man. I get to enjoy lifting heavy things, burning meat on fire, grabbing my wife's fine ass, and see the angelic joy in a nice rack.

If the price to pay is that I have to pay the bills, stay in shape, dress reasonably, and have my crap together and not act like an emo chick so be it.

I've also had to learn the hard way that this doesn't mean letting your wife off the hook. She has to "woman" up, too.

This means staying attractive, being a good mother, keeping the house together, not letting herself be too BSC, and taking as much responsibility for the marriage as I do.

I think one of the core failings for the red pill is that it allows men to take the credit or the blame for far too much.


----------



## Machiavelli

C123 said:


> Now our wives, who claimed to love how sensitive we were during the courtship, want us to be more manly and assertive. Then, when we do a 180, they might find us more sexually attractive, but they don't like us and our behavior as much. It's overwhelming.


It's a damn sight better to be found sexually attractive than to merely be liked (and that only temporarily). Act accordingly.


----------



## Marduk

Machiavelli said:


> It's a damn sight better to be found sexually attractive than to merely be liked (and that only temporarily). Act accordingly.


It's also strangely odd that in my few(er) times of weakness when I've sought emotional support from my wife it's been given far more freely when I:

1. Am in good shape

2. Have my crap together elsewhere in my life

3. Have sexed & romanced her up recently

and - the biggest one - 

4. Come up with a plan of attack and don't dwell on it


----------



## Machiavelli

marduk said:


> I think one of the core failings for the red pill is that it allows men to take the credit or the blame for far too much.


In an age of male monogamy, as opposed to the previous 2000 years of Greco-Roman nominal male monogamy, that's the way it falls out. Most women, just like most men, don't realize the competition is not over, just because they got the ring.


----------



## Machiavelli

marduk said:


> It's also strangely odd that in my few(er) times of weakness when I've sought emotional support from my wife it's been given far more freely when I:
> 
> 1. Am in good shape
> 
> 2. Have my crap together elsewhere in my life
> 
> 3. Have sexed & romanced her up recently
> 
> and - the biggest one -
> 
> 4. Come up with a plan of attack and don't dwell on it


My wife completely lost her libido. We both figured hormones, age, kids. Then I went back to training due to a major cancer scare and dropped about 80# or so of fat and gained about 20# of muscle. Suddenly, her libido returned with a vengeance.


----------



## Marduk

Machiavelli said:


> My wife completely lost her libido. We both figured hormones, age, kids. Then I went back to training due to a major cancer scare and dropped about 80# or so of fat and gained about 20# of muscle. Suddenly, her libido returned with a vengeance.


Shocking, right?

Can't fight the lizard brain. Can't rationalize or romance attraction.


----------



## Machiavelli

marduk said:


> Shocking, right?
> 
> Can't fight the lizard brain. Can't rationalize or romance attraction.


True love.


----------



## LongWalk

Mach, have you contributed to the threads of Racer or Harken Banks?


----------



## Machiavelli

LongWalk said:


> Mach, have you contributed to the threads of Racer or Harken Banks?


I don't know, but those guys have been around for awhile, so most likely at some point.


----------



## Whip Morgan

Marduk, you've written quite a bit about the things you have done to keep your wife happy. It's quite the effort and a lot of hard work. What does she do to make you happy? I hope she puts in the same hard work that you do. Reading your posts, it strikes me that your marriage is more of a one way street in her direction. I especially don't like how she treats you when you , as you said, got comfortable. Which means you're a normal human being. Her response is to throw hissy fits and go on girls nights out. 

Go read through the Infidelity section and read up on how a lot of Girls Nights Out work out
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> Mach, have you contributed to the threads of Racer or Harken Banks?


My ears were burning. Thanks for the thought. I have received some of the benefit of Machiavelli's wisdom. Being attractive is not a problem for me. Well, sometimes it has gotten me into trouble and also my fair share of ribbing. But I could be more Machiavellian.


----------



## Marduk

Whip Morgan said:


> Marduk, you've written quite a bit about the things you have done to keep your wife happy. It's quite the effort and a lot of hard work. What does she do to make you happy? I hope she puts in the same hard work that you do. Reading your posts, it strikes me that your marriage is more of a one way street in her direction. I especially don't like how she treats you when you , as you said, got comfortable. Which means you're a normal human being. Her response is to throw hissy fits and go on girls nights out.
> 
> Go read through the Infidelity section and read up on how a lot of Girls Nights Out work out
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have, and I have learned to trust but verify.

In short, when I don't do my crap, she slowly stops doing her crap too... and gets bored, and gets distracted with her friends and hobbies. She's your basic high maintenance hot girly girl girl that was given everything she's ever had that's now a mom and a wife.

I've learned to not resent it and to use it.

When I get my crap done -- by which I mean doing the steps I identified in the beginning -- she gets her crap done too.

By which I mean being attentive, caring, giving, sexy, going out of her way to please me, and the GNOs fall by the wayside. Her BSC times get way smaller, and she self edits when she's in a crap mood more. She dresses nicer, she initiates more, etc. Your basic dream wife.

But I won't lie. It's a knife edge that I live on. Such is the life that I apparently chose.

However I have the power to make my relationship what I want, and I also do not let her take less than 50% accountability for the relationship.

Case in point: "hey babe, you've been having a lot of GNOs and have lots of your own things planned this summer. It's my turn to have some fun. I'm going out with the boys here and here, and away for a long weekend on a boy's trip here. I don't care if it's inconvenient, it's what's happening. If you want to talk about cancelling some of your stuff I'll consider not going. Oh, ya, it's too bad we won't be spending a lot of time together. Listen, don't get mad at me for doing what you're doing. OK, fine, bye."

That night - awesome dinner waiting for me when I got home. Cuddly wife on the couch after kids go to bed. Awesome loving it up that night. So I had to take the tough road and be willing to make her mad, but I got what I wanted in the end.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Machiavelli said:


> In an age of male monogamy, as opposed to the previous 2000 years of Greco-Roman nominal male monogamy, that's the way it falls out. Most women, just like most men, don't realize the competition is not over, just because they got the ring.


You talkin' 'bout me?? sheesh I resemble those remarks. 


I won, the war is over. I can relax. Yeah, go right ahead. Talking to myself here.


----------



## Machiavelli

2ntnuf said:


> You talkin' 'bout me?? sheesh I resemble those remarks.
> 
> 
> I won, the war is over. I can relax. Yeah, go right ahead. Talking to myself here.


It's a lesson we have to learn the hard way.


----------



## CanadianGuy

Machiavelli said:


> It's a lesson we have to learn the hard way.


All of the best lessons are.


----------



## Gerrard

Best thing I've read on here. Like a clear manifesto forward. Many thanks!


----------



## Macdonals

This list is amazing. Thank you, this advice gives me hope.


----------



## chaos

bump


----------



## MarriedDude

Awesome Thread!!!!!

I have been on the same road for several years now. It amazes me how responsive women are. At first I thought that the workouts, the boundaries, the changes...that they were simply another form of manipulation or control. 

3 years in....I know what it is. It's leadership. It's essential for the marriage and the entire family. It changes the dynamics in such a way that creates an almost never ending loop of positive momentum.

I had the opposite problem of many men...I was raised by my father. Grew up on construction sites and hunt camps. I had the alpha down- it was basically who I was. Getting women was never a problem....keeping them was the real issue. Learning how to provide the comfort part, from a position of strength, was difficult. But so worth it.


----------



## chaos

It is a reality embracing way of life. Good stuff.


----------



## morituri

Bumping to help cure the sufferers of low T.


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## Faithful Wife

marduk...I had not read this thread before, I'm glad someone bumped it (but I only read the first post). In a thread in the general section, it seems like you are saying that your current wife has cheated on you...but I am confused because I thought it was your first wife who had cheated on you. Can you clear that up for me?


----------



## Marduk

There was an EA, or very close to an EA that happened about 8 months ago or so. 

A very short period of time, fraught with conflict and breached trust. No PA, with a very high degree of confidence. Basically a bunch of phone calls and texts with a guy that caused us serious problems just before we got married.

No actual romance, either. Just a lot of emotionally charged stuff between her and him, and lots of deceit from her. Which really hurt more than anything -- we've always been very open about our past and our dealings with other people. 

Lots of MC and IC for the both of us, trust is back pretty well. Transparency on both sides. Dude is gone after both of us talked to him.

Oddly, this happened when I fell off this bandwagon and we were attempting to deepen our relationship emotionally. A long climb back.

Ex wife carried on about a 3-6 mo physical affair before spontaneously separating. She never came clean about it, found out from some friends while we were separated.

I may be mixing up my stories.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I see. I'm sorry to hear that. I can only imagine that it must have been a real kick in the nuts, given your first marriage (ex-w cheating, even if you found out about it later).

I think I also read that your current wife gets it and is showing real remorse and repair now, so that's good news. I hope I have that right.

Knowing this stuff also helps to understand why the red pill stuff really appeals to you (the parts you use, not the crappy parts) because it does appear to work for your benefit in your marriage. I hope your wife is all on board now.


----------



## ConanHub

How long with your current wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

Unlike the "red pill" with its toxic side effects, this protocol (marduk's) is very liberating and self empowering. A cure for wussiness.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I see. I'm sorry to hear that. I can only imagine that it must have been a real kick in the nuts, given your first marriage (ex-w cheating, even if you found out about it later).


Ya. It was.

We're still trying to sort out what it was. Given that I've come to a place where I accept that it wasn't a romantic thing. An oversharing and emotionally intimate thing that went on behind my back.

Which is a weird thing. Because with physical affairs, or even ones with overt sexual or romantic overtones, you can use that as an obvious thing, you know? We didn't have that.

What we settled on was the deception and breach of trust stuff.


> I think I also read that your current wife gets it and is showing real remorse and repair now, so that's good news. I hope I have that right.


In the beginning, I got zero remorse or empathy. Some empathy came later, but the remorse came in the form of feeling sorry for herself, which swamped any empathy that might have been there.

Besides, she's just not an empathetic person. She's a kick you in the ass person.


> Knowing this stuff also helps to understand why the red pill stuff really appeals to you (the parts you use, not the crappy parts) because it does appear to work for your benefit in your marriage. I hope your wife is all on board now.


The thing is, she really responds to the red pill. As does a LOT of women that I know.

And she's very happy if I just keep up with that. The problem is, I'm not.

She's on board. Worked hard, and continues to work hard. Been in... over six months of IC now working on stuff. I have, too, on and off. And MC of course when we go off track. I have to acknowledge how hard she's worked to keep our marriage and to try to repair the trust.

She's 100% transparent, passwords to everything, and now approaches the whole thing from a respectful angle rather than an "I'm an independent woman that can do whatever I want" angle. 

Which, of course, she is, but the approach is everything, you know?

Ex wife - we'd been married 2.5 years. She wasn't my first love, but she was a really honest, pure, childlike love, you know? That all went very wrong.


----------



## Marduk

ConanHub said:


> How long with your current wife?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmm. I should know this.

14ish years I'd guess. 12 married. I know that one.


----------



## Marduk

morituri said:


> Unlike the "red pill" with its toxic side effects, this protocol (marduk's) is very liberating and self empowering. A cure for wussiness.


I will tell you this -- if I hadn't gone through what I went through to get there, this recent stuff would have landed me in a whole different place.


----------



## morituri

marduk said:


> I will tell you this -- if I hadn't gone through what I went through to get there, this recent stuff would have landed me in a whole different place.


Indeed.

Yet unlike many other men who come to TAM, you got up, dusted yourself off, and did the opposite of what didn't work and you got results. THAT should be recognized and shown to other men so they also can have emotional strength by leaving their victim mentality behind and applying the principles of becoming better men, relationship or not.


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,

The post below reminds me of the time when M2 was in love with the other guy. Because she initiated maybe 3-4 end of marriage (EOM) type conversations during a one year period. 

My response to each of these was pretty much the same. 

The spirit of it was: It's all about you

In the situation you describe it ought sound like: Is your desire for total freedom, greater than your desire for a stable monogamous LTR? 

My approach was more like this: If you need some time apart, we can get an apartment. And I'm fine being in the apartment or being in the house. Let me know what you want to do. If you want, I'll help you find an apartment. 

----------
Suddenly M2 wanted to know what "I" wanted. I just laughed and said: This isn't about me, I'm not the one who wants space. 

To be fair, I was in denial about the OM. Deejo warned me, but I blew off the warning. 

I was VERY lucky the EA didn't go physical. But it's also true that each time I did the 'all about you' thing it made M2 want ME more.








marduk said:


> Ya. It was.
> 
> We're still trying to sort out what it was. Given that I've come to a place where I accept that it wasn't a romantic thing. An oversharing and emotionally intimate thing that went on behind my back.
> 
> Which is a weird thing. Because with physical affairs, or even ones with overt sexual or romantic overtones, you can use that as an obvious thing, you know? We didn't have that.
> 
> What we settled on was the deception and breach of trust stuff.
> 
> In the beginning, I got zero remorse or empathy. Some empathy came later, but the remorse came in the form of feeling sorry for herself, which swamped any empathy that might have been there.
> 
> Besides, she's just not an empathetic person. She's a kick you in the ass person.
> 
> 
> The thing is, she really responds to the red pill. As does a LOT of women that I know.
> 
> And she's very happy if I just keep up with that. The problem is, I'm not.
> 
> She's on board. Worked hard, and continues to work hard. Been in... over six months of IC now working on stuff. I have, too, on and off. And MC of course when we go off track. I have to acknowledge how hard she's worked to keep our marriage and to try to repair the trust.
> 
> She's 100% transparent, passwords to everything, and now approaches the whole thing from a respectful angle rather than an "I'm an independent woman that can do whatever I want" angle.
> 
> Which, of course, she is, but the approach is everything, you know?
> 
> Ex wife - we'd been married 2.5 years. She wasn't my first love, but she was a really honest, pure, childlike love, you know? That all went very wrong.


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> The post below reminds me of the time when M2 was in love with the other guy. Because she initiated maybe 3-4 end of marriage (EOM) type conversations during a one year period.
> 
> My response to each of these was pretty much the same.
> 
> The spirit of it was: It's all about you
> 
> In the situation you describe it ought sound like: Is your desire for total freedom, greater than your desire for a stable monogamous LTR?
> 
> My approach was more like this: If you need some time apart, we can get an apartment. And I'm fine being in the apartment or being in the house. Let me know what you want to do. If you want, I'll help you find an apartment.
> 
> ----------
> Suddenly M2 wanted to know what "I" wanted. I just laughed and said: This isn't about me, I'm not the one who wants space.
> 
> To be fair, I was in denial about the OM. Deejo warned me, but I blew off the warning.
> 
> I was VERY lucky the EA didn't go physical. But it's also true that each time I did the 'all about you' thing it made M2 want ME more.


It's funny how fast things change when they are worried about you, rather than the other way around.

And how easy it is to try to slip into a continual cold war of "I need you less than you need me."


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> In the beginning, I got zero remorse or empathy. Some empathy came later, but the remorse came in the form of feeling sorry for herself, which swamped any empathy that might have been there.
> 
> Besides, she's just not an empathetic person. She's a kick you in the ass person.
> 
> 
> The thing is, she really responds to the red pill. As does a LOT of women that I know.
> 
> And she's very happy if I just keep up with that. The problem is, I'm not.


Interesting that she lacks empathy in general. That makes sense with lacking in emotional intimacy, too. The whole red pill thing, to me, shows a lack of empathy...so maybe that's why she responds well to it.

When you say "other women you know"...do you mean here at TAM?


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Interesting that she lacks empathy in general. That makes sense with lacking in emotional intimacy, too. The whole red pill thing, to me, shows a lack of empathy...so maybe that's why she responds well to it.
> 
> When you say "other women you know"...do you mean here at TAM?


No, I mean in RL.

When I was deep in the red pill it was an uncommon week where I didn't have another woman hit on me.

Frequently, other married women.

And, honestly, I wasn't looking for that.


----------



## MEM2020

This wasn't dread or anything conscious. 

I do believe M2 felt an immediate anxiety that I was completely calm, concerned about her, making it as easy as possible for her to do what she wanted. 

No one can 'make you' their plan B guy. You either take on that role or not. 




marduk said:


> It's funny how fast things change when they are worried about you, rather than the other way around.
> 
> And how easy it is to try to slip into a continual cold war of "I need you less than you need me."


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> No, I mean in RL.
> 
> When I was deep in the red pill it was an uncommon week where I didn't have another woman hit on me.
> 
> Frequently, other married women.
> 
> And, honestly, I wasn't looking for that.


OK but what "red pill" stuff do you think they were responding to?

You were working out, being your own man, you got a promotion...remember, these women don't know anything about the red pill movement and general self improvement stuff is not actually "red pill", since red pill is simply the response of some men to feminism, not relationship advice.

I mean, you're a hot guy and some married women aren't faithful, so I don't see how them hitting on you was "red pill" stuff.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> OK but what "red pill" stuff do you think they were responding to?
> 
> You were working out, being your own man, you got a promotion...remember, these women don't know anything about the red pill movement and general self improvement stuff is not actually "red pill", since red pill is simply the response of some men to feminism, not relationship advice.
> 
> I mean, you're a hot guy and some married women aren't faithful, so I don't see how them hitting on you was "red pill" stuff.


Hmm... what I mean to say was that at the time, I was doing red pill stuff.

And when I peaked on the red pill stuff is when both my wife and other women seemed to show the most attraction for me.

Now... I did select what I decided I was going to do very carefully. And importantly to me, I actually measured what I could, so I could try to validate it.

However, my wife responds very much to one facet of red pill thinking: don't bother me with your internal emotional state, just be a strong man. Which I can do. But don't want to.


----------



## RoanE

Well, you married a entitled princess then had to go all caveman red pill on her to get her attention. You picked poorly, so please don't say this tuff works on normal healthy women. Look, this is great right now while you and she are both trading currency, except your marriage isn't one of love and commitment and loyalty but one of push/pull fear. The red pill stuff is for men who are broken or weak and marry women who are entitled princesses or the same. Perhaps, I could get on board if you mentioned working on inner stuff and becoming more empathetic, compassionate people, but you just made her fear losing you, or you having an affair. Maybe that works for some people....I only know that having an equal relationship built on trust, loyalty, kindness, passion and balance seems more like the right way to go. I've had this for twenty years with a very independent woman and instead of having to be "on" all the time to keep her, we both make sure we are interconnected and balanced, healthy people in a healthy, balanced relationship. Being fit and dressing nice and acting all self serving and cave man is just a band aid for a marriage that isn't based on anything other than shallow appearances and selfish expectations. I hope most men here realize that and do not try to work out and flirt with other woman as a solution for marriages that need more equanimity and time balance.


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> Hmm... what I mean to say was that at the time, I was doing red pill stuff.
> 
> And when I peaked on the red pill stuff is when both my wife and other women seemed to show the most attraction for me.
> 
> Now... I did select what I decided I was going to do very carefully. And importantly to me, I actually measured what I could, so I could try to validate it.
> 
> However, my wife responds very much to one facet of red pill thinking: don't bother me with your internal emotional state, just be a strong man. Which I can do. But don't want to.


"I was doing red pill stuff"....I still think you mean personal improvement stuff, right? 

I now separate in my mind "red pill stuff" as political stuff, since it is a movement in response to feminism. So to me "red pill stuff" means things like believing that feminism ruined men and promoting that idea, discussions on how schools mistreat boys and uphold girls, etc. 

And the other stuff like working out, being confident, being your own man, those things are just personal improvement. So I think you mean the personal improvement stuff, right?

Even "don't bother me with your internal emotional state" isn't "red pill stuff", IMO, since it has nothing to do with anti-feminism. For example, lots of men also feel "don't bother me with your internal emotional state, just be an autonomous person" toward their wives, which is neither good nor bad, neither red pill nor blue pill, it is just a way certain people behave and believe. Some will respond positively to that, some negatively, whether male or female.

People who are more capable of raw intimacy and empathy (which I believe describes you) aren't going to respond well to "don't bother me with your internal emotional state", either on the giving or receiving end.

I do understand why you are calling it "red pill stuff"....but none of that is actually exclusive to red pill except the anti-feminism parts. 

Bottom line, it will always be true that some people (both genders) cannot handle empathy, deeper emotions, and real intimacy so those people will always be positively affected when you leave that stuff out of a relationship, and negatively affected when you want it to be part of your relationship. I have said before, I think what is going on in your marriage is an intimacy mismatch, very similar to a sexual mismatch (in as far as it can be very difficult to navigate around).


----------



## CaptainSwallow

Seems your entitled Princess is immature and so you have to fix your marriage by micromanaging her attraction through external actions. Most marriages, the true balanced ones, aren't like this. I think this dance will get old and unmanageable after a while. The fact that it stems from the red pill just makes me incredulous. My twenty year marriage is built on equanimity, partnership, passion and kindness. It is sad that your characters have you seeking a currency exchange dynamic in what is supposed to be the closest relationship you have in life. My wife is not an entitled princess and we are partners who are fit because we want to be, equal because we aren't in some gender war and balanced because we are in a committed loving relationship, not because we are afraid the other will get bored or cheat. Seems you both need to work on internal character flaws and get some therapy, but you are so busy with "games" you would willfully lead a bunch of men to buy into the broken persons red pill guide to marriage without thought that this approach could sever families and hurt the very men you are "leading" here. Hope you get it one day, brother. This isn't working to fix the marriage, just to keep you in a prison of your own making.


----------



## Marduk

What I mean FW was a deliberate execution of phases 1-3 of mmslp. 

As in:
1. Go dark, figure out your strengths and weaknesses, and minimize the bad and increase the good. 

2. Declare what I want from being married. 

3. Act as if I'm getting what I said already. Deal with **** tests, be confident and ****y, initiate cleanly, be outcome independent. 

All that stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

CaptainSwallow said:


> Seems your entitled Princess is immature and so you have to fix your marriage by micromanaging her attraction through external actions. Most marriages, the true balanced ones, aren't like this. I think this dance will get old and unmanageable after a while. The fact that it stems from the red pill just makes me incredulous. My twenty year marriage is built on equanimity, partnership, passion and kindness. It is sad that your characters have you seeking a currency exchange dynamic in what is supposed to be the closest relationship you have in life. My wife is not an entitled princess and we are partners who are fit because we want to be, equal because we aren't in some gender war and balanced because we are in a committed loving relationship, not because we are afraid the other will get bored or cheat. Seems you both need to work on internal character flaws and get some therapy, but you are so busy with "games" you would willfully lead a bunch of men to buy into the broken persons red pill guide to marriage without thought that this approach could sever families and hurt the very men you are "leading" here. Hope you get it one day, brother. This isn't working to fix the marriage, just to keep you in a prison of your own making.


Dude...

#1 we're not in that place any more. 
#2 insult my wife again and we're going to have a problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> What I mean FW was a deliberate execution of phases 1-3 of mmslp.
> 
> As in:
> 1. Go dark, figure out your strengths and weaknesses, and minimize the bad and increase the good.
> 
> 2. Declare what I want from being married.
> 
> 3. Act as if I'm getting what I said already. Deal with **** tests, be confident and ****y, initiate cleanly, be outcome independent.
> 
> All that stuff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gotcha. None of that stuff is actually "red pill", but I do realize you read it in MMSLP, so it was his particular packaging you read it from and were executing it. (IOW, a woman who is autonomous and acting in the way you described would appeal to some men, not others, and she may or may not be a feminist in order to behave that way or be affected that way.)

Do you see or agree with my point about all that stuff lacking empathy and and intimacy and how therefore, it could attract people who also lack those skills or who don't want those present in a relationship? Just my thoughts, not a big deal, was curious if you see it, too.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Gotcha. None of that stuff is actually "red pill", but I do realize you read it in MMSLP, so it was his particular packaging you read it from and were executing it. (IOW, a woman who is autonomous and acting in the way you described would appeal to some men, not others, and she may or may not be a feminist in order to behave that way or be affected that way.)
> 
> Do you see or agree with my point about all that stuff lacking empathy and and intimacy and how therefore, it could attract people who also lack those skills or who don't want those present in a relationship? Just my thoughts, not a big deal, was curious if you see it, too.


I'm not sure... I'll think on it. 

I know it attracted women I thought were out of my league-very hot women 20 years younger than me, for example. 

Or beautiful women my age married to attractive rich guys. Etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> I'm not sure... I'll think on it.
> 
> I know it attracted women I thought were out of my league-very hot women 20 years younger than me, for example.
> 
> Or beautiful women my age married to attractive rich guys. Etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah...it attracted people on a purely "sexy" level, right?

And there's nothing wrong with that level. 

All anyone has to do to attract people is be sexy...and a person can do this even from a position that is nothing like the one you took...but the one you took definitely made you sexier, that is why so many women responded. Other people can be introverted Spock types and be so sexy that chicks are waiting around for his time, you know?

There's a lot of fun and spark on the sexy level.

But it can be completely devoid of emotions or intimacy....OR it can be full of them. When you start attracting people that seemed to have sniffed you out, it just means you are really sexy right now, but it says nothing of the quality of the people attracted to you...IOW, I'm sexy, and people are consistently attracted to me, however just being attracted to me doesn't mean a person is also a good person who means me well. They may or may not be that. They may be DTF, which is not threatening to me but it is definitely not something I want to be around. I avoid people like this. They vibe in a way that makes me see them a mile away.

What you are experiencing in your sexy-ness is these other sexy vampires sniffing you out. They mostly aren't going to care about you as a person.

This is what type of attraction that type of advice can pull. Some people do it naturally (you are probably one of them, but MMSLP and other books reminded you of what you had forgotten). There's no guarantee that who you attract will ever be a quality person in your life, or a threat to your peace of mind in some way. 

Anyway, that's what I think is going on from what you are describing. Your wife of course is going to respond to the sexier you, as well.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Yeah...it attracted people on a purely "sexy" level, right?
> 
> And there's nothing wrong with that level.
> 
> All anyone has to do to attract people is be sexy...and a person can do this even from a position that is nothing like the one you took...but the one you took definitely made you sexier, that is why so many women responded. Other people can be introverted Spock types and be so sexy that chicks are waiting around for his time, you know?
> 
> There's a lot of fun and spark on the sexy level.
> 
> But it can be completely devoid of emotions or intimacy....OR it can be full of them. When you start attracting people that seemed to have sniffed you out, it just means you are really sexy right now, but it says nothing of the quality of the people attracted to you...IOW, I'm sexy, and people are consistently attracted to me, however just being attracted to me doesn't mean a person is also a good person who means me well. They may or may not be that. They may be DTF, which is not threatening to me but it is definitely not something I want to be around. I avoid people like this. They vibe in a way that makes me see them a mile away.
> 
> What you are experiencing in your sexy-ness is these other sexy vampires sniffing you out. They mostly aren't going to care about you as a person.
> 
> This is what type of attraction that type of advice can pull. Some people do it naturally (you are probably one of them, but MMSLP and other books reminded you of what you had forgotten). There's no guarantee that who you attract will ever be a quality person in your life, or a threat to your peace of mind in some way.
> 
> Anyway, that's what I think is going on from what you are describing. Your wife of course is going to respond to the sexier you, as well.


I'm not sure if I buy that.

How is my sexiness not 'me as a person?' And what is a sexy vampire?

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't understand. Maybe I've been around too many DTF women during my formative years.

Besides, I never had any intention of attracting anyone else than my wife... what I did find very interesting is that all the stuff my wife said didn't matter sexy-wise actually did, and it pretty much fell in line with how other women started treating me.


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,

That theme you mentioned. The whole: 'don't bother me with your internal emotional state - just be strong for me'

That's a BIG thing with M2. Obviously in reverse she wants me to fully tune in to her internal emo state. But as far as what's going on inside my head. 

Her hard wired reaction to actually seeing fear on my face - is FURY (oh well - luckily a rare event). Isn't real fond of seeing me angry either. 

Interestingly enough - when I get a touch of depression - she picks up on it right away and wraps me in this 360 virtual blanket of kindness, support, patience, empathy.....








marduk said:


> I'm not sure if I buy that.
> 
> How is my sexiness not 'me as a person?' And what is a sexy vampire?
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is that I don't understand. Maybe I've been around too many DTF women during my formative years.
> 
> Besides, I never had any intention of attracting anyone else than my wife... what I did find very interesting is that all the stuff my wife said didn't matter sexy-wise actually did, and it pretty much fell in line with how other women started treating me.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Your sexiness is you as a person...you started finding out who you are, instead of focusing on your wife or the marriage. So being authentic, even attempting to improve and be authentic, is sexier than not doing those things. It is still always "you as a person".

Not sure what to tell ya about the sexy vampires...but that's who comes sniffing around when you're sexy. Other people do, too.


----------



## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> There's a lot of fun and spark on the sexy level.
> 
> But it can be completely devoid of emotions or intimacy....OR it can be full of them. When you start attracting people that seemed to have sniffed you out, it just means you are really sexy right now, but it says nothing of the quality of the people attracted to you...IOW, I'm sexy, and people are consistently attracted to me, however just being attracted to me doesn't mean a person is also a good person who means me well. They may or may not be that. They may be DTF, which is not threatening to me but it is definitely not something I want to be around. I avoid people like this. They vibe in a way that makes me see them a mile away.
> 
> What you are experiencing in your sexy-ness is these other sexy vampires sniffing you out. They mostly aren't going to care about you as a person.
> 
> This is what type of attraction that type of advice can pull. Some people do it naturally (you are probably one of them, but MMSLP and other books reminded you of what you had forgotten). There's no guarantee that who you attract will ever be a quality person in your life, or a threat to your peace of mind in some way.


I just wanted to thank you for this. I know you weren't even talking to me, but the way you've framed this dynamic here suddenly made the penny drop for me. I get it now. I've been trying to wrap my head around this for some time, and I finally, finally get it.

So thanks!

Sorry for the threadjack, OP.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> And what is a sexy vampire?


My take on this is that it is someone who will suck all the sex out of you, and is more than happy to leave you a bloodless husk. It actually pretty accurately describes most of my "relationships". No wonder I'm so fvcking jaded!

But, I really think FW is on to something here. What I find interesting about this discussion is that we have two men here, who both have wives that are generally unemotional, seemingly needing their husbands to be totally stoic, and yet who also have had EAs. To me this really does sound like people who cannot handle vulnerability, either their own or anyone else's. And perhaps this is what red pill is for: people who need to be distant, detached, protected and walled from emotional intimacy. 

Those who cannot handle the abyss will prefer red pill detachment to protect themselves; whereas those of us who swim in it will find it complete anathema.


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> That theme you mentioned. The whole: 'don't bother me with your internal emotional state - just be strong for me'
> 
> That's a BIG thing with M2. Obviously in reverse she wants me to fully tune in to her internal emo state. But as far as what's going on inside my head.
> 
> Her hard wired reaction to actually seeing fear on my face - is FURY (oh well - luckily a rare event). Isn't real fond of seeing me angry either.
> 
> Interestingly enough - when I get a touch of depression - she picks up on it right away and wraps me in this 360 virtual blanket of kindness, support, patience, empathy.....


Depression just pisses my wife off, she takes it as a sign of weakness. It's a good thing that it really doesn't happen to me that much 

I believe AK calls it something like "don't talk to your wife about your boo-boos."


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Your sexiness is you as a person...you started finding out who you are, instead of focusing on your wife or the marriage. So being authentic, even attempting to improve and be authentic, is sexier than not doing those things. It is still always "you as a person".
> 
> Not sure what to tell ya about the sexy vampires...but that's who comes sniffing around when you're sexy. Other people do, too.


Not lying.

That's just about every woman I know that isn't a close friend, very straight laced, related, or older.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> My take on this is that it is someone who will suck all the sex out of you, and is more than happy to leave you a bloodless husk. It actually pretty accurately describes most of my "relationships". No wonder I'm so fvcking jaded!


That actually sounds kind of fun.

How can someone leave you a bloodless husk through sex? I've had plenty of women "suck the sex out of me" but I've never felt disempowered, belittled, or drained by it. Well, longer than 24 hours at least.

And, anyway, I'm staunchly monogamist, so it doesn't matter, I just find this view confusing.


> But, I really think FW is on to something here. What I find interesting about this discussion is that we have two men here, who both have wives that are generally unemotional, seemingly needing their husbands to be totally stoic, and yet who also have had EAs. To me this really does sound like people who cannot handle vulnerability, either their own or anyone else's. And perhaps this is what red pill is for: people who need to be distant, detached, protected and walled from emotional intimacy.


Yes, I agree.

It's just that it seems -- from my limited perspective -- that this is a lot of women.

Or, to be accurate, perhaps even most. In terms of attraction. I just hope that it can be modified to be a gateway to emotional intimacy.



> Those who cannot handle the abyss will prefer red pill detachment to protect themselves; whereas those of us who swim in it will find it complete anathema.


I'm hoping that's a false dichotomy. At this point that's all it is - hope.


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## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> Not lying.
> 
> That's just about every woman I know that isn't a close friend, very straight laced, related, or older.


Why would I think you are lying? Believe me, I get it.


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## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> Or, to be accurate, perhaps even most. In terms of attraction. I just hope that it can be modified to be a gateway to emotional intimacy.
> 
> I'm hoping that's a false dichotomy. At this point that's all it is - hope.


But it can't be modified to a gateway with everyone. It can with some people, but not those who aren't capable of it anyway.

I think you are seeing and experiencing the same thing I see and experience. Just because someone is attracted to me, it doesn't "mean anything". There is literally no "meaning" behind physical and sexual attraction. A man can look me over and not even look at my face and still feel sexual attraction for me, I could be wrapped up in my husband's arms at the time. A woman can do the same with you and not even give a crap that your wife is her friend....same thing. It never "means anything".

So the emotional connection and intimacy you are talking about? They are only tangently related to physical and sexual attraction. They are not the driver of attraction and attraction is not the driver of those emotions. They can exist together or separate.

No, you can't create a gateway to emotional connection through physical attraction if that person isn't capable of it, it just can't happen. Those abilities come from a different place than physical attraction.

I had this guy high school friend tell me that I'm still so hot and he and our other guy friends still want to f*ck me so bad. I'm like "eh, who cares?" He said "What?? Aren't you at least flattered by that?" I'm like "hell no why would I be flattered by that, none of you even know me you just want to f*ck me....bleah". He didn't get it, because being physically and sexually attracted is as far as his emotions and intimacy can go. There's nothing further than that for him. To him, that's as much as he can possibly feel for someone: just wants to f*ck her, that's it.


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## always_alone

marduk said:


> That actually sounds kind of fun.
> 
> How can someone leave you a bloodless husk through sex? I've had plenty of women "suck the sex out of me" but I've never felt disempowered, belittled, or drained by it. Well, longer than 24 hours at least.


It is fun. Until you realize that it is completely empty, hollow, devoid of meaning, and the people you've been having sex with don't even see you as a person, don't care about you, will never care about you, and probably no one ever will care about you. Indeed most of them have absolutely nothing but contempt for you. 

Then you realize no matter how much or who you fvck, you're "always alone".


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## MEM2020

That hurts to read...

QUOTE=always_alone;12808073]It is fun. Until you realize that it is completely empty, hollow, devoid of meaning, and the people you've been having sex with don't even see you as a person, don't care about you, will never care about you, and probably no one ever will care about you. Indeed most of them have absolutely nothing but contempt for you. 

Then you realize no matter how much or who you fvck, you're "always alone".[/QUOTE]


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## Faithful Wife

always_alone said:


> It is fun. Until you realize that it is completely empty, hollow, devoid of meaning, and the people you've been having sex with don't even see you as a person, don't care about you, will never care about you, and probably no one ever will care about you. Indeed most of them have absolutely nothing but contempt for you.
> 
> Then you realize no matter how much or who you fvck, you're "always alone".


Now I'll have to jump in here and slap you around a little bit....because this just isn't true, but it may be true that you've picked people who this is true with. But just because you have a bad picker doesn't mean that no one can have real feelings and love for you, woman! 

In marduk's case, I think he is devoted to his wife, and she doesn't have a very high capacity for actual intimacy...so I think he feels sort of helpless, like you are expressing in the post I quoted. It feels like "why won't they/he/she/anyone actually love me deeper than the sexual level?" But it isn't that YOU aren't worth that deeper love, it is that you are expecting it to come from someone who has a limited capacity for it.

Both of you can be loved in the way you want, just maybe not by the people you are with...and really, do we want to keep asking them to change anyway, knowing they have a limited capacity to begin with? You gotta feel worthy of that love regardless, though. It isn't you, it is them.


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## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> In marduk's case, I think he is devoted to his wife, and she doesn't have a very high capacity for actual intimacy...so I think he feels sort of helpless, like you are expressing in the post I quoted. It feels like "why won't they/he/she/anyone actually love me deeper than the sexual level?" But it isn't that YOU aren't worth that deeper love, it is that you are expecting it to come from someone who has a limited capacity for it.
> 
> Both of you can be loved in the way you want, just maybe not by the people you are with...and really, do we want to keep asking them to change anyway, knowing they have a limited capacity to begin with? You gotta feel worthy of that love regardless, though. It isn't you, it is them.


Intimacy requires at least some acceptance of vulnerability: both of your own and of the one you love. If you can't do this, at least on some level of depth, you will never achieve real intimacy no matter how hard you try.

I think this is why I find red pill so repugnant. I allowed myself to be vulnerable in all the wrong ways because I am (was) a stupid dolt. And when that turned into an utter disaster, I walled up like Fort Knox, with added moat and dragons. I know why people detach, distance themselves, hold themselves apart. I just know from experience that it isn't good relationship advice. At best, it's self-protection advice, and it isn't very good to be on the receiving end of that much contempt. 

That said, I have learned that it really does matter who you pick. This is why I am with my current SO. For whatever problems we have, he actually and genuinely likes the actual and genuine me. And this is utterly priceless in my books.


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## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> Depression just pisses my wife off, she takes it as a sign of weakness. It's a good thing that it really doesn't happen to me that much
> 
> I believe AK calls it something like "don't talk to your wife about your boo-boos."


I think this is sad, and I just want to say....not all women are like that. If my husband didn't have any weaknesses, I wouldn't be attracted to him at all. I wouldn't feel like I could trust him if he was made of stone. I also need to know he loves me including my weaknesses, and I need to be able to expose my real self to him enough for him to know what those weaknesses are.

This doesn't mean we both want to sit around and have a mutual pity party all the time. We are both resilient and strong, and we face our individual problems as best we can. But we lean on each other, too. 

I am also madly attracted to him....many other women are as well. But the ones who just want him for his prowess or attractiveness are pretty obvious to him, he says. When you have your sex-dar tuned in really well, you can pick up on people's intimacy issues, too. Even though women have always chased him, he doesn't feel flattered by this if they don't even give a crap about him as as person, and he can tell the difference. This is very similar to my experience.


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## Marduk

Every woman I've ever known has been like this.


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## Marduk

Here's my struggle, FW and A_A.

I don't see women just wanting to F me as sex vampires. Well, that and sneaking into "Lifeforce" underage, and having a thing for sexy vampires, especially from space.

And I don't see myself as any one thing. When I have sex, it's an expression of me. When I work, it's an expression of me. When I'm vulnerable, it's an expression of me. It's all an expression of me.


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## Faithful Wife

You can't have been in a relationship with every woman you know so how could you know this?


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## always_alone

marduk said:


> Every woman I've ever known has been like this.


Like what?


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## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> You can't have been in a relationship with every woman you know so how could you know this?


OK, I get what you mean.

I mean in the relationships I've been in.

Perhaps it's a self-selecting group.


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## Marduk

always_alone said:


> Like what?


Viewed emoting my boo-boos, or other guys doing it, as a giant turn-off.


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## always_alone

marduk said:


> OK, I get what you mean.
> 
> I mean in the relationships I've been in.
> 
> Perhaps it's a self-selecting group.


Self-selecting? Or you-selecting?


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## Marduk

always_alone said:


> Self-selecting? Or you-selecting?


Dunno. Both, maybe?


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## always_alone

marduk said:


> Viewed emoting my boo-boos, or other guys doing it, as a giant turn-off.


Oh. Okay. I think this sort of thing needs to be unpacked a bit more, as I suspect there are potentially several different things going on there. 

Some of this is, no doubt, socio-cultural training that insists that women are emotional and irrational, and that men are all unemotional and "pure logic". This sort of stereotype, however, doesn't really help anyone at all, and does great (and well-documented) disservice to boys. But no doubt there must be women out there who buy into it as much as men do.


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## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> OK, I get what you mean.
> 
> I mean in the relationships I've been in.
> 
> Perhaps it's a self-selecting group.


I'm going to guess that you have attracted certain people to you because you have some limitations in those areas, too. IOW, I think you might be blocking intimacy from others. I can feel this from you sometimes when I'm sincerely trying to get to know you better and you sort of "bat" me away, or you change the subject, or you turn it into a type of "hard answer" with a lot of qualifiers instead of real opening up. So the people who you attract are reflecting that quality in you.

This is just my theory.

Always Alone has a similar thing going on (which I only know from some communications she has had).

This is not an insult to either of you in anyway so I hope you don't think it is.

Do you have other relationships you feel are emotionally intimate, perhaps with friends or relatives?


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## Faithful Wife

always_alone said:


> Some of this is, no doubt, socio-cultural training that insists that women are emotional and irrational, and that men are all unemotional and "pure logic". This sort of stereotype, however, doesn't really help anyone at all, and does great (and well-documented) disservice to boys. * But no doubt there must be women out there who buy into it as much as men do*.


I think there are also women out there who have no desire for deep emotional ties and intimacy. Some just aren't wired that way or they don't prefer to be that way. Some were not allowed to be emotional in childhood (just like some boys) and did not develop those skills.

But I think plenty of women have no problem being less emotional and less intimate, it suits them just fine and there's nothing wrong with that.

The problem is when there is a mismatch. Of course a woman like this will not want a man who emotes a lot.

Some men want a woman who doesn't emote a lot, as well.

When there's no mismatch, it can work out great.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm going to guess that you have attracted certain people to you because you have some limitations in those areas, too. IOW, I think you might be blocking intimacy from others. I can feel this from you sometimes when I'm sincerely trying to get to know you better and you sort of "bat" me away, or you change the subject, or you turn it into a type of "hard answer" with a lot of qualifiers instead of real opening up. So the people who you attract are reflecting that quality in you.
> 
> This is just my theory.


It's very possible.

When I met my wife, we were very intimate. I'm not talking about sex, I'm talking about going through our pasts in great detail, past hurts, exes, family history, that kind of stuff.

It seemed to go away after we got married. Not sure why.


> Always Alone has a similar thing going on (which I only know from some communications she has had).
> 
> This is not an insult to either of you in anyway so I hope you don't think it is.
> 
> Do you have other relationships you feel are emotionally intimate, perhaps with friends or relatives?


I do have a small group of very close friends that I am pretty close and open with.


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## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> I do have a small group of very close friends that I am pretty close and open with.


What do you think is different about these people or the mix of you and them? Why do you think there is more closeness there? IOW, do you think those you feel closer with have some quality that the women you have been with don't have, or do you think the mix of your personality with theirs brings something out in you maybe? Are the friends you are close to also close to your wife?


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> What do you think is different about these people or the mix of you and them? Why do you think there is more closeness there? IOW, do you think those you feel closer with have some quality that the women you have been with don't have, or do you think the mix of your personality with theirs brings something out in you maybe? Are the friends you are close to also close to your wife?


The people I let in my inner circle are grounded. Smart. Experienced. Rational. Real. 

I have a visceral distaste for dishonesty. And I pick it up a mile away. It can be intellectual dishonesty, emotional dishonesty, a lack of integrity, that kind of stuff. I have a high bar there. It's also why I like some people even if they don't like me - as long as they are honest about it. They must be intelligent, passionate, and driven people. 

As far as romantic partners, I'm attracted to hot girly girls that are at least as smart as I am, independent, strong willed, fighters. 

I'd rather be with a hot head genius than a coolly rational aesthete. 

So, in that sense, I've dug my own grave. Such women are by nature difficult. And, likely because I found getting girls quite easy, I can't be with someone that bores me, or that I don't respect. 

The way a woman moves is very important to me. 

My big turn offs for women, aside from being out of shape or vacant, are not enjoying being a woman, not owning her irrationality (everybody can be irrational), being boring, being too easy, and not being driven.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

Oh, yes, for the most part my friends are my wife's friends, and vice versa.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> So, in that sense, I've dug my own grave. Such women are by nature difficult. And, likely because I found getting girls quite easy, I can't be with someone that bores me, or that I don't respect.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I dunno, I don't see why a woman like the ones you are describing can't also be emotionally gifted and able to be truly intimate.....or not, either one. I've known a lot of women who are NOT capable of intimacy and they don't seem to have anything in common. IOW, the ones who are CEO's and run huge companies are not necessarily more or less gifted emotionally than the ones who are SAHM's. 

I do know some people who just never really grow in that way and I don't think they can reach past what they've already reached. I know when a friend is not capable of true intimacy, just by how they interact with me. Lots of women are not that deep.

Whereas lots of men are very deep.

I think this is another stereotype issue.

Anyway...I wish there was an answer for you. But if your wife won't even discuss deeper emotions without getting grossed out by you emoting, then clearly there's no where for you to go with that. If you love her and aren't going to leave even if this never changes, then you would do well to foster more friendship and family relationships with people you feel that intimacy with to fill in the gap.

You've asked me before and I have seen you asking others before if they felt comfortable with praise. I can only imagine that it might actually be you who is a little uncomfortable with praise...or something along those lines. Do you think it is possible that you just deep down inside can't trust, or can't believe people would really be that close to you if you let them in? I'm not sure if this applies to your wife, but since it is a pattern that you've attracted women who all have this lacking ability, perhaps it is that you can't really accept it even if it is real. Just a thought.


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## Marduk

Hmm. 

I don't think I'm uncomfortable with praise as much as I don't need it very much. 

I have a pretty solid ego, I think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> Hmm.
> 
> I don't think I'm uncomfortable with praise as much as I don't need it very much.
> 
> I have a pretty solid ego, I think.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe not praise, but perhaps love, intimacy, something like that. Maybe you are holding yourself back due to something like that, is what I mean. Might not make sense. It is hard to say what I'm trying to say because I'm not even sure myself what I'm picking up...I'm trying to describe it. It is like you c*ck block yourself from intimacy.


----------



## Marduk

I should stop DP'ing myself, maybe.


----------



## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> ..I'm trying to describe it. It is like you c*ck block yourself from intimacy.


I have seen marduk revel in what a c0cky a$$ chick magnet he is, so to my mind it is completely unsurprising that he would both be avoiding emotional intimacy and attracting very like kind of women. I honestly don't know exactly what sorts of women find that hot, but I absolutely do know it's only a subset, and perhaps even a small one at that.

As in all the guys I knew who were like that when I was younger have found themselves alone, lonely, or in relationships with women who cheat and/or treat them badly.

And, FW, you are right that I have something similar going on. I never really had any tools for emotional intimacy, or dating, for that matter, and had to learn everything the hard way. And, what I did have going on was the sort of thing that people were more inclined to find appalling than appealing. So I mostly drew those who cared only for body parts and nothing else.


----------



## Marduk

Here's the thing, A_A.

I've dated all kinds of women. Athletes, intellectuals, artists... I even had a thing for the whole tortured soul 'alterna-girl' types for a time.

And while I'm attracted to rationality, most of them were very comfortable emoting to me. In fact, a lot of women emote to me. 

It's just not reciprocated. Or if it is, it's not... supportive of the relationship. I kinda came to a place where I thought that most women didn't go for that whole Alan Alda sensitive male trope.

Maybe it's the way I emote. 2 MCs have now said that it's refreshing to have a man be so emotionally available and open. Which kind of goes against what you're thinking. Maybe.

I dunno.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> Here's the thing, A_A.
> 
> I've dated all kinds of women. Athletes, intellectuals, artists... I even had a thing for the whole tortured soul 'alterna-girl' types for a time.
> 
> And while I'm attracted to rationality, most of them were very comfortable emoting to me. In fact, a lot of women emote to me.
> 
> It's just not reciprocated. Or if it is, it's not... supportive of the relationship. I kinda came to a place where I thought that most women didn't go for that whole Alan Alda sensitive male trope.
> 
> Maybe it's the way I emote. 2 MCs have now said that it's refreshing to have a man be so emotionally available and open. Which kind of goes against what you're thinking. Maybe.
> 
> I dunno.


Those are job descriptions or high-school cliques, not "kinds" of women. I know artists, for example, who are as "tortured" as tortured can be, and I know artists who are all sunshine and light. I know intellectuals who are hard-nosed, hyper-rational and conservative, and intellectuals who are all post-modern, fuzzy, and flaky. Dress code, job description, high-school clique -- all of this is on the surface and says at most something about general interests. Certainly not very much about personality, desires, drivers of attraction.

Many of my male friends are quite sensitive types. One of my oldest and dearest friends is a total "huggy bear" kind of guy who is quite open about his emotions, soft spots all over the place, and he has never, ever, in the 30 years that I have known him had trouble finding women who were attracted to him and wanted to be with him. My SO is the type who can be moved to tears, made insecure, express his anxieties, and the full gamut of emotions. None of his ex-gfs ever held that against him (although one certainly did take advantage of it in a very not nice way). These two examples, however, are both absolutely different in the sociological grouping that they might be stereotyped by.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> Those are job descriptions or high-school cliques, not "kinds" of women. I know artists, for example, who are as "tortured" as tortured can be, and I know artists who are all sunshine and light. I know intellectuals who are hard-nosed, hyper-rational and conservative, and intellectuals who are all post-modern, fuzzy, and flaky. Dress code, job description, high-school clique -- all of this is on the surface and says at most something about general interests. Certainly not very much about personality, desires, drivers of attraction.
> 
> Many of my male friends are quite sensitive types. One of my oldest and dearest friends is a total "huggy bear" kind of guy who is quite open about his emotions, soft spots all over the place, and he has never, ever, in the 30 years that I have known him had trouble finding women who were attracted to him and wanted to be with him. My SO is the type who can be moved to tears, made insecure, express his anxieties, and the full gamut of emotions. None of his ex-gfs ever held that against him (although one certainly did take advantage of it in a very not nice way). These two examples, however, are both absolutely different in the sociological grouping that they might be stereotyped by.


See, here's the thing. And I think you're onto something here.

When I was that guy coming out of my divorce -- the insecure, emotional, vulnerable guy -- I had women interested in me.

It just didn't last long, you know? And they seemed to treat me as some kind of pet project.

Same in my LTRs. If I had something pull the rug out from under me, and I became that guy for a stretch of time (say a few months), you could tell that the relationship was in decline. Even if she was really trying hard to be there for me. It was becoming a decidedly non-romantic non-sexual relationship.

And then when I would shut the hell up about whatever, the romance and sex would come back.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> And then when I would shut the hell up about whatever, the romance and sex would come back.


Yeah, I have the same problem. Had to be (or perceived to be) someone else entirely, or no one wanted anything to do with me.

People tell me it's because I have a bad picker. 

I do understand, though, how tempting it is to think that *all* people are the same when you keep getting the same kind of feedback. But at the same time, you still have to recognize what the common denominator really is.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Here's the thing, A_A.
> 
> I've dated all kinds of women. Athletes, intellectuals, artists... I even had a thing for the whole tortured soul 'alterna-girl' types for a time.
> 
> And while I'm attracted to rationality, most of them were very comfortable emoting to me. In fact, a lot of women emote to me.
> 
> It's just not reciprocated. Or if it is, it's not... supportive of the relationship. I kinda came to a place where I thought that most women didn't go for that whole Alan Alda sensitive male trope.
> 
> Maybe it's the way I emote. 2 MCs have now said that it's refreshing to have a man be so emotionally available and open. Which kind of goes against what you're thinking. Maybe.
> 
> I dunno.




For ME, I don't like weak people. I just don't. No my husband cannot be strong 100% of the time. So *I* have chosen to own hearing about, sympathizing with and working on the down/bad/depressing times so as to receive the benefits of the rest of the times. But I am right there with you. Needy, clingy, weepy... Just Not Attractive. Now that is not the extent of emoting. His emotions include joy, pensiveness, humor, anger. All of those I can take without effort. Fear, weakness, neediness all require active effort on my part not to get yucked out by.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> For ME, I don't like weak people. I just don't. No my husband cannot be strong 100% of the time. So *I* have chosen to own hearing about, sympathizing with and working on the down/bad/depressing times so as to receive the benefits of the rest of the times. But I am right there with you. Needy, clingy, weepy... Just Not Attractive. Now that is not the extent of emoting. His emotions include joy, pensiveness, humor, anger. All of those I can take without effort. Fear, weakness, neediness all require active effort on my part not to get yucked out by.


_exactly_.

And I have little attraction for weak women as well. Not in terms of being emotionally vulnerable, but in terms of a sense of agency, passion, and independence.


----------



## Faithful Wife

NobodySpecial said:


> For ME, I don't like weak people. I just don't. No my husband cannot be strong 100% of the time. So *I* have chosen to own hearing about, sympathizing with and working on the down/bad/depressing times so as to receive the benefits of the rest of the times. But I am right there with you. Needy, clingy, weepy... Just Not Attractive. Now that is not the extent of emoting. His emotions include joy, pensiveness, humor, anger. All of those I can take without effort. Fear, weakness, neediness all require active effort on my part not to get yucked out by.


That's interesting. I don't know how anyone can get through life having no fear or weaknesses. Not that they have to wear them on their sleeve...but if someone didn't have any fears or weaknesses, how could they even be human versus robotic? Maybe I'm not getting what you are saying.

The only people I've known who don't have any fear or weakness were also devoid of the higher emotions and empathy.

I'm not sure what "weak people" even means, I guess.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> That's interesting. I don't know how anyone can get through life having no fear or weaknesses.


They don't. I am not sure why you think I suggest they do or should.


----------



## Faithful Wife

NobodySpecial said:


> They don't. I am not sure why you think I suggest they do or should.


Just that you said you don't like weak people, so I couldn't imagine how anyone could not be weak on some area, at some level in their lives...weaknesses and fears, we all have them.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> Just that you said you don't like weak people, so I couldn't imagine how anyone could not be weak on some area, at some level in their lives...weaknesses and fears, we all have them.


I am not saying that anyone could ever not be weak sometimes or in some area. Just that I am not going to be attracted to them at that time or in that area.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Interesting, to be sure.

I guess what marduk is saying makes a lot of sense to you, then. It has me baffled.


----------



## Fozzy

marduk said:


> Here's my struggle, FW and A_A.
> 
> I don't see women just wanting to F me as sex vampires. Well, that and sneaking into "Lifeforce" underage, and having a thing for sexy vampires, especially from space.
> 
> And I don't see myself as any one thing. When I have sex, it's an expression of me. When I work, it's an expression of me. When I'm vulnerable, it's an expression of me. It's all an expression of me.


Lifeforce. Wow, that brings back memories. Who knew VHS tapes could wear out so fast?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> Interesting, to be sure.
> 
> I guess what marduk is saying makes a lot of sense to you, then. It has me baffled.


Not entirely. If I were a guy, I would not seek to suppress my feelings, even the "negative" ones, in order to keep a woman. I would find a woman who could take my negative with my positive even if it requires something on her part.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I do agree, there seems to be a mismatch between marduk and his wife in this way, and it seems that he has to stuff his real self in order to keep her attraction up.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Interesting, to be sure.
> 
> I guess what marduk is saying makes a lot of sense to you, then. It has me baffled.


FW, you must know milquetoast dudes that can't deal with life.

They approach it in the most passive way possible. Get a job, never do well at it. Just scrape by. Get a wife who won't stress them out or ask for too much. Make her make all the hard decisions. Never hang out with friends. Don't have hobbies.

That, in a woman, would have no interest for me.

I'm a type A guy. Very structured. Very organized. Very driven. High energy.

My attitude is that I'm not going to waste time doing things I don't want to do. And if I have to use my time doing such a thing (such as work) I'm going to change it into what I want it to be and rock it.

My hobbies are impossible to master. Martial arts. Solo exercise. Yoga. Mountain biking. Those kinds of things. That I'll never succeed at, because there's no finish line.

A woman in my life would have to keep up with all that. Or, ideally, drive me to excel at that stuff even more.

Mrs homemaker baking bread in the kitchen and watching soaps all day, and being compliant when I come home... zero interest. I need somone driven. Someone passionate. Someone with zest. It doesn't matter with what. Someone that forces me to respect her. And yet isn't the corporate type A powermonger non-woman with higher T than me.

That's what I'm attracted to.

So I can see how that kind of woman would view me as being suddenly afraid or insecure or fearful as a giant turn off.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Not entirely. If I were a guy, I would not seek to suppress my feelings, even the "negative" ones, in order to keep a woman. I would find a woman who could take my negative with my positive even if it requires something on her part.


I think what happened is this all really didn't come up until we were married, had kids, and a graceful exit was no longer really an option.

I mean, I agree that unhappy couples should split. But it's hard to say "you don't let me be insecure sometimes so I'm outta here," you know?

Especially when she tries very hard to make me happy, even as she's pretty much blind to empathy.


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> *FW, you must know milquetoast dudes that can't deal with life.*
> 
> They approach it in the most passive way possible. Get a job, never do well at it. Just scrape by. Get a wife who won't stress them out or ask for too much. Make her make all the hard decisions. Never hang out with friends. Don't have hobbies.
> 
> That, in a woman, would have no interest for me.
> 
> I'm a type A guy. Very structured. Very organized. Very driven. High energy.
> 
> My attitude is that I'm not going to waste time doing things I don't want to do. And if I have to use my time doing such a thing (such as work) I'm going to change it into what I want it to be and rock it.
> 
> My hobbies are impossible to master. Martial arts. Solo exercise. Yoga. Mountain biking. Those kinds of things. That I'll never succeed at, because there's no finish line.
> 
> A woman in my life would have to keep up with all that. Or, ideally, drive me to excel at that stuff even more.
> 
> Mrs homemaker baking bread in the kitchen and watching soaps all day, and being compliant when I come home... zero interest. I need somone driven. Someone passionate. Someone with zest. It doesn't matter with what. Someone that forces me to respect her. And yet isn't the corporate type A powermonger non-woman with higher T than me.
> 
> That's what I'm attracted to.
> 
> So I can see how that kind of woman would view me as being suddenly afraid or insecure or fearful as a giant turn off.


I guess not, to the bolded? I don't know anyone personally I would describe that way. I don't have many close friends who fit any type of standard marriage profile though, so maybe that is why.

But even among acquaintances, guys I work with or have known over the years....I don't see any who are the way you are describing. Someone who doesn't have hobbies or hang out with friends...I dunno, I know a few "loners" (both men and women)...I don't think this is a bad thing for everyone.

For instance, the one guy I know who is sort of close to what you are describing (in that his wife is a far more powerful and go getter type person than he is) has a major physical disability, one which has really altered his mind as well as his body, and all I can see is someone who has a built in weakness that most of us will never deal with, therefore I see his strength in overcoming it as much as he can...and I also see his strength in attracting and keeping such a go getter woman.

Maybe I just hang with so many like minded people to myself, I typically only see the things I can relate to.


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> Especially when she tries very hard to make me happy, even as she's pretty much blind to empathy.


Does she lack empathy in general?


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> I think what happened is this all really didn't come up until we were married, had kids, and a graceful exit was no longer really an option.
> 
> I mean, I agree that unhappy couples should split. But it's hard to say "you don't let me be insecure sometimes so I'm outta here," you know?
> 
> Especially when she tries very hard to make me happy, even as she's pretty much blind to empathy.


We accept what foibles we can. We have to. No one is perfect.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Does she lack empathy in general?


I think she struggles with it. I think it's more that she's so awash in her own emotions that she doesn't always see the other side of it.

I've seen it before, in very passionate people.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> I think she struggles with it. I think it's more that she's so awash in her own emotions that she doesn't always see the other side of it.
> 
> I've seen it before, in very passionate people.


Foibles. Judgmental. Raises hand. 

That is not passionate. That is selfish and immature.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Foibles. Judgmental. Raises hand.
> 
> That is not passionate. That is selfish and immature.


I mean it more in terms of being swamped with their own passion.

A typical scenario is that we will have conflict. She will sense pain very deeply, and respond with fire from that place of pain... and inflict it in return.

And not be able to empathize with the pain she just inflicted, because she will be swamped with her own pain and anger... and feel vulnerable in being open to feeling more. I think she sees empathy in that situation as her own weakness.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I'm going to assume this comes from early childhood stuff? I asked what her relationship with her parents was like once and you said dreadful.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Something to consider - a lot of guys just don't understand what it means to be expressive and vulnerable. Their attempt to do so only comes off whiney and weak. But there's a huge difference between weak/whiney and emotionally available/vulnerable. Real strength is overcoming the challenges you face. If you incessantly whine about something and never do anything about it, never stand your ground and face it, THEN you're weak. I think women want a guy who recognizes his challenges - doubts and weaknesses - and takes them on. That guy is strong. That guy is real. The guy who seemingly has no expression or vulnerability is the fake.

It's not about pretending you don't have fears or weaknesses. It's about acknowledging them and meeting them head on. It's about valuing and trusting someone enough to share those genuine doubts, but always facing them. 

Part of me is still afraid every time I enter a social situation in spite of everything I've learned and all of my experience. There's still a fleeting panic, a blip in my heart beat before I approach a woman... that once upon a time I might have allowed to control me. Yet today, I've met that challenge so well that women are blown away to hear it. I came off charismatic, oozing confidence and devil may care wit, so they say it's like knowing some special secret thing other women don't know about me. They get to know. Some people call this faking it, but that's total defeatist bs. This is actually as real as life gets imo. This is growth and overcoming personal adversity. Nobody thinks anything of it in relation to more physical actions. For example - I'm afraid each and every time I line up on the grid for a motorcycle race - I literally tremble ever so slightly. I have to push thoughts of crashing out of my mind and visualize myself rockin' it around the track. I run the whole process through my mind to keep focus: untuck and set up for turn one, brake at the crack in the curbing, down two gears, stabilize, turn in at the dandelion, trail brake to late apex, hit the apex, roll on throttle, look for exit marker, stand the bike up... wide open throttle to turn two - repeated for every corner on the track. There are tactics and mantras. Slow in, fast out. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Always look to the next marker. You go where your eyes go. Take only what is there. Patience. Consistency. Then I go out and apply it. For some reason, nobody accuses you of faking racing a motorcycle by employing beneficial strategies to overcome fear and promote focus and improvement. But the doubts and fears are still all there. But I'm there. I'm doing it. I found solutions. I'm beating the sh*t out of my fears and insecurities. I'm owning my life. There's nothing more real than that.

Women feel closer to me and more valued when they are allowed to know/see the underbelly - the part of me that shakes on the starting grid. There's a sense that they're special and allowed inside when others aren't... but instead of seeing weakness, they're privileged to see a real person with real doubts, who won't let any of it stand in the way of the life I want. Knowing what I want, refusing to accept less, handling my sh*t and going and getting it. I think women take great comfort in that and want to be apart of that guy's life. Far from being fake, I think that's as real as it gets. And I think it inspires confidence, trust and value.

There's more than empathy at play. There is a sense of inspiring confidence and value. The latter is where I think Marduk lost his way. It's hard to empathize when you lack respect for what someone allows/does.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm going to assume this comes from early childhood stuff? I asked what her relationship with her parents was like once and you said dreadful.


Yup.

And, you know, just being fiery.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I guess...? I'm pretty fiery, but also very empathetic. I'm also a sucker for certain boo-boo's. I mean, I don't want to hear all about a stranger's woes, but I always want to hear about my lover's. Whether they are about something I did wrong, or about something that has literally nothing to do with me. I'm also fascinated by scars and want to hear the details of them. I guess I've never had anyone go to any point that was "too much" for me in hearing this kind of thing, so maybe if someone did I would lose the ability to empathize with that person.

It seems sad you can't be totally yourself without losing her attraction to you.

But we do always have friends for that shoulder when we need it. I assume that's where you go instead of her.

Of course, this leaves you vulnerable in some ways.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> Yup.
> 
> And, you know, just being fiery.


Upshot is that if she can't tolerate or doesn't like her own vulnerability, odds are pretty good that she'll never tolerate yours.

Don't confuse emoting with vulnerability. And awful lot of emoting is specifically designed to escape/deny/cover up vulnerability.


----------



## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> I guess...? I'm pretty fiery, but also very empathetic. I'm also a sucker for certain boo-boo's. I mean, I don't want to hear all about a stranger's woes, but I always want to hear about my lover's. Whether they are about something I did wrong, or about something that has literally nothing to do with me. I'm also fascinated by scars and want to hear the details of them. I guess I've never had anyone go to any point that was "too much" for me in hearing this kind of thing, so maybe if someone did I would lose the ability to empathize with that person.


Fire and comfort with vulnerability aren't necessarily correlated, IMHO.

Fire is sometimes used as a cover for anxiety, as are bravado and c0ckiness. But fire is also related to other passions, not just fear.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> For example - I'm afraid each and every time I line up on the grid for a motorcycle race - I literally tremble ever so slightly. I have to push thoughts of crashing out of my mind and visualize myself rockin' it around the track. I run the whole process through my mind to keep focus: untuck and set up for turn one, brake at the crack in the curbing, down two gears, stabilize, turn in at the dandelion, trail brake to late apex, hit the apex, roll on throttle, look for exit marker, stand the bike up... wide open throttle to turn two - repeated for every corner on the track. There are tactics and mantras. Slow in, fast out. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Always look to the next marker. You go where your eyes go. Take only what is there. Patience. Consistency. Then I go out and apply it..


Interesting. I personally find that strategy is absolutely the wrong approach in these situations. It's like thinking of how best to walk, and then conscientiously planning and implementing each step. Makes me trip every time.

My approach is just to completely let go. Whatever happens, happens. If I make it through, great. If not, oh well. Oops.


----------



## Kitt

I don't know your entire story, but I find it incredibly sad that you have to continually jump through hoops and be someone you aren't in order to keep your wife interested. My husband is open with me about his problems and I find it intimate and sexy. I'm his wife....if he can't be real with me who can he be real with? I guess I just feel kind of sad for you and your wife if this is your marriage. Sorry, since I know this seems to inspire other men....I guess I don't get it in quite the same way. Regardless, you sound like a good person and I hope you find happiness.


----------



## Faithful Wife

always_alone said:


> Fire and comfort with vulnerability aren't necessarily correlated, IMHO.
> 
> Fire is sometimes used as a cover for anxiety, as are bravado and c0ckiness. But fire is also related to other passions, not just fear.


Yes, fiery to me might mean something different to marduk. For me, I'm easy to ignite (as evidenced here at TAM all the time), but that means I'm easy to ignite in a lot of ways...let's call in sick and fly to Vegas. OK! Let's create a new non-profit organization to help my favorite cause and raise XX number of dollars in a month. OK! Let's see what sex on LSD is like. OK! Let's go down to that company and protest what they are doing. OK! Let's go topless at the **** March this year. Um no, not going to do that one but I'm happy to walk next to you in the march and I'll call my friend at the newspaper and make sure you get your picture in there. :laugh:

Or ... let's become an advocate for my paralyzed brother's health care because he needs help and no one will help him and I love him enough to go do that. OK! 

These are all parts of being fiery. Can't really cool me down, no matter what I'm up to. I wake up on fire most mornings.

I can cop to occasionally getting irrational....but thankfully people who love me and know me get it and will just call me on my sh*t.

I don't lack empathy in any way, though...maybe even have it too much. I have to fight myself not to have sad thoughts for other people more than is necessary, as I know it doesn't help them. What does help them is being able to express themselves, though. This I'm good at, and then I have to let go of their emotions at some later time.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Interesting. I personally find that strategy is absolutely the wrong approach in these situations. It's like thinking of how best to walk, and then conscientiously planning and implementing each step. Makes me trip every time.
> 
> My approach is just to completely let go. Whatever happens, happens. If I make it through, great. If not, oh well. Oops.


You're thinking of during, not the moments prior. 

As an analogy, think of an athletic play. You practice slow. You consciously emphasize each step of the play and you repeat those steps with proper conscious emphasis on technique. By the time the game comes, the technique has become second nature... fluid and without thought.

It's the same on the race track, if you brain your way through a race, you'll be slow and more likely to crash. You rely on your preparation. Instead of thinking, "down two gears" entering this corner, it becomes second nature because you've been through it mentally so many times. And you absolutely must have your brake markers, turning points, apexes, and exit points totally memorized to be consistent. Practice laps are all about finding conspicuous elements on the track or track edge to serve as those markers, then steadily edging closer to the limits... choosing a later brake marker etc.

If you want to improve at any complex task, the most efficient way is to be methodical. Else, you'll be too inconsistent to effect rapid improvement. Your gains in one area usually lost to the inconsistency of another area, and you probably can't identify that you actually improved - ie, I was faster in turn 1, but I lose that advantage elsewhere on the track, such that my lap times are the same and I never really know that what I was doing in turn 1 was an advantage.

The "Oh well" approach is fine if improvement truly isn't your aim, but in racing it's potentially deadly.

You'll find this approach universal to racers - we know what gear we're in for any given corner and we know each marker along the way, and we can mentally run through an entire lap. High level athletes can run you through the steps behind a given. And even in the social arena, someone like a con-artist or street magician can walk you through the steps that gain confidence, redirect attention and what not to be successful in their endeavors.


----------



## heartsbeating

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> If you want to improve at any complex task, the most efficient way is to be methodical. Else, you'll be too inconsistent to effect rapid improvement. Your gains in one area usually lost to the inconsistency of another area, and you probably can't identify that you actually improved - ie, I was faster in turn 1, but I lose that advantage elsewhere on the track, such that my lap times are the same and I never really know that what I was doing in turn 1 was an advantage.
> 
> The "Oh well" approach is fine if improvement truly isn't your aim, but in racing it's potentially deadly.


I liked much of your previous post about vulnerability and pushing through moments of insecurity and fear, particularly if you know that you can, you have the tools to do so. Is your intention with being vulnerable to attract or is it for your state of being; the way you wish to live for yourself?

Visualization for a task, a sport, activity, can be effective. There's a specified end point. I can think in terms of music. If you play an instrument, somewhere already in your mind, you're aware of a certain riff or scale or a mood you wish to convey. You could play the piece in your mind, visualize how it will sound, even the fading of the last note. There's a certain control with this. It can become part of practice to improve. 

Or maybe that's how it begins. Until you allow yourself to become 'lost' in the moment and the mechanics of what you're doing aren't being thought of; it's simply being in that moment and letting it flow. To me, that's being. The last note isn't being thought of at that point, there's no result being put on it other than seeing where it takes us. 

Maybe that's part of how we grow. We become aware of our thoughts, emotions, the actions... the mind-melt is when we acknowledge it's all in our minds, and nothing has really changed. That's all just the mechanics rather than the being. 

In terms of vulnerability, interacting with others, making choices in life, we have no control over life. We may be able to control a song when we play it but life has its own rhythm. We have no control over another being either. We can live according to what we feel is congruent, we can project our hopes and dreams, yet if we try to constrict life to suit an outcome we have in mind, there isn't much space for the flow.


----------



## Marduk

Kitt said:


> I don't know your entire story, but I find it incredibly sad that you have to continually jump through hoops and be someone you aren't in order to keep your wife interested. My husband is open with me about his problems and I find it intimate and sexy. I'm his wife....if he can't be real with me who can he be real with? I guess I just feel kind of sad for you and your wife if this is your marriage. Sorry, since I know this seems to inspire other men....I guess I don't get it in quite the same way. Regardless, you sound like a good person and I hope you find happiness.


Thanks.

I don't want to be absolutist about it. We're getting there. She's working hard at it. We're working hard at it together.

She's a lot wiser than she was when I started this thread, for example.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

heartsbeating said:


> I liked much of your previous post about vulnerability and pushing through moments of insecurity and fear, particularly if you know that you can, you have the tools to do so. Is your intention with being vulnerable to attract or is it for your state of being; the way you wish to live for yourself?


I don't really have an intention. It's just something I've noticed that I thought was relevant to why a woman sometimes views vulnerability as weakness whereas others it is highly attractive. When I've opened up to a woman who was interested in me, her interest in me usually skyrockets rather than dropping for seeing me as weak. So I was considering why that is so in context with where the thread was going - and I think it's because the vulnerability is there and genuine, but not hopeless and whiney - which is how I think many men come off when they are trying to be expressive. Instead, I'm doing something about those fears and insecurities in order to live the life I want to live. If all you ever do is whine about something, I don't think that's the sort of vulnerability a woman is interested in. I think she just wants to know that a guy is genuine and of depth, facing personal challenges, pains, fears and insecurities, but won't let them hold him back. That guy is more relatable and supportable perhaps.



heartsbeating said:


> Visualization for a task, a sport, activity, can be effective. There's a specified end point. I can think in terms of music. If you play an instrument, somewhere already in your mind, you're aware of a certain riff or scale or a mood you wish to convey. You could play the piece in your mind, visualize how it will sound, even the fading of the last note. There's a certain control with this. It can become part of practice to improve.
> 
> Or maybe that's how it begins. Until you allow yourself to become 'lost' in the moment and the mechanics of what you're doing aren't being thought of; it's simply being in that moment and letting it flow. To me, that's being. The last note isn't being thought of at that point, there's no result being put on it other than seeing where it takes us.


I agree with this, but I tend to look at them as two sides of the same coin. Controlled preparation and then trusting that you've prepared well. The better your preparation, the better your quality when you "let go." It's funny you mention music. What I love the most about being on the racetrack, I also get from playing piano. The voice in my head finally shuts up, and everything I'm doing is on automatic - little to no thought involved.

Such is the power of mental walkthroughs, technique, mantras etc. To this day when I have to give an intimidating presentation to people above my pay grade if you will, I run through a mental checklist or mantra just before hand. Like: "Stand up straight, smile, eye contact, speak smooth; you own the room, this is easy, you're loose, charming and you know your sh*t. They're regular people who don't know half as much about this as you do. That's why you're speaking and they're listening. This is your house, and they are your guests." Then I might mentally run through the subjects. I have a couple notes in front of me to help me if I start feeling in a jam.

I've been told I give awesome presentations that are informative and engaging... like I must love public speaking. It's always a revelation when I let someone know that inside, I'm *this close* to uncontrollably shaking with nervousness. Interestingly, I also happen to be a decent stand up comic, and can rock karaoke, all by doing the same things to get in the "zone". Dancing is still a work in progress. Regardless, it's very rewarding.



heartsbeating said:


> Maybe that's part of how we grow.


That's my thought exactly.



heartsbeating said:


> In terms of vulnerability, interacting with others, making choices in life, we have no control over life. We may be able to control a song when we play it but life has its own rhythm. We have no control over another being either. We can live according to what we feel is congruent, we can project our hopes and dreams, yet if we try to constrict life to suit an outcome we have in mind, there isn't much space for the flow.


I think both are going on at the same time. When you're in the zone playing a song, it sure feels like natural flow, but most people don't get there without the detailed preparation and mental setup.

You can't control life. You can control yourself by being better prepared, or setup, for the things you want to do in life. I've been racing for years and like I said, I'm still afraid every single time I get on the starting grid (like, queasy stomach afraid) - it's completely involuntary. So I run through my preparation, visualize success, and put my mind where it needs to be. When the race starts, I just get out of the way... or as AA puts it, you walk without thinking about it.

But there was a lot that went into being able to do so... whether it's racing, playing music, sports, chatting up strangers, approaching women, public speaking, skydiving, karaoke or dancing.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I think both are going on at the same time. When you're in the zone playing a song, it sure feels like natural flow, but most people don't get there without the detailed preparation and mental setup.
> 
> You can't control life. You can control yourself by being better prepared, or setup, for the things you want to do in life. I've been racing for years and like I said, I'm still afraid every single time I get on the starting grid (like, queasy stomach afraid) - it's completely involuntary. So I run through my preparation, visualize success, and put my mind where it needs to be. When the race starts, I just get out of the way... or as AA puts it, you walk without thinking about it.
> 
> But there was a lot that went into being able to do so... whether it's racing, playing music, sports, chatting up strangers, approaching women, public speaking, skydiving, karaoke or dancing.


To a point. Of course practice is important to learning a new skill. But IME at any rate, over-preparation and overthinking are absolutely liabilities. I quite literally cannot function properly if I do all the sorts of mental preparation techniques that you're talking about here and your earlier post. Even when practicing or taking on something new. Most of the time, you (I) have no idea where the next curve is or how best to meet it given the current context (weather, closeness of the pack, etc.). Most of the time, the beauty of the song isn't in the technical proficiency, but in the soul that expresses it. So instead of thinking it through, I just let go and dive in.

Of course, you are talking to someone who can't really plan anything 3 days into the future, let alone map out every detail of how any event or activity will go.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Most of the time, the beauty of the song isn't in the technical proficiency, but in the soul that expresses it. So instead of thinking it through, I just let go and dive in.


I get what you're saying, and I agree that when it's time to get down, you go with what you've got. But generally speaking, having the technique down goes a long way to not only executing well, but having the confidence to "let go and dive in". There's a sort of order of operations to it I think. The prep and mental techniques tend to promote the ability to get lost in the activity if you will. I mean, how many people shrink from something like dancing? They don't know how to dance. They're self-conscious about how dumb they're going to look. They can't let go. So what do you do? You prep. You learn some simple dance moves. You focus on others rather than self-consciousness. Reality has a funny way of becoming whatever you tell yourself it is. Doing those things makes it a hell of a lot more likely the person who is afraid to dance, will actually get out there and dance.

It's often the difference between doing something outside of your comfort zone, or not doing it at all. 

At any rate, I bring this up only to highlight how expressing fears, anxiety and insecurity, can be attractive in the context of actively working with and overcoming them, versus just whining about things you never do anything about. The former vulnerability seems to appeal to people. The latter not so much.

Take a man who is passive about sex. He may say he doesn't assert his wants because he's afraid of rejection or pressing her - we see some of those issues here from time to time. She may empathize with that vulnerability, but eventually, she's probably going to lose empathy for it if he doesn't take steps to try and overcome it. The guy who never does anything about it is just being whiney when he expresses that fear. Talking himself up or doing whatever techniques help him push past rejection fear - taking on that fear - that's real vulnerability and something she can empathize with and even respect. You're not just whining about and avoiding your weaknesses, you're engaging them. 

Just my thoughts on why some male expressions of vulnerability/fear etc can be connection building, real or endearing, while other expressions can simply be eroding and whiney - without her capacity for empathy being any different.


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> It's often the difference between doing something outside of your comfort zone, or not doing it at all.
> 
> At any rate, I bring this up only to highlight how expressing fears, anxiety and insecurity, can be attractive in the context of actively working with and overcoming them, versus just whining about things you never do anything about. The former vulnerability seems to appeal to people. The latter not so much.


I agree that nobody loves a whiner. But I disagree that the only attractive response to vulnerability is to just buck up. I realize the narrative arc of "overcoming" is a popular one, but it isn't the only effective or attractive alternative to "wallowing". 

Personally, I'm more impressed by a man who owns his vulnerability more openly. Who acknowledges his emotions for both good and bad. The idea that I should feel "special" because only I get to see that side of him? Doesn't mean anything to me. Indeed, that he is so walled off that he can only show me his "underbelly" strikes me as a giant red flag.


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## Faithful Wife

always_alone said:


> I agree that nobody loves a whiner. But I disagree that the only attractive response to vulnerability is to just buck up. I realize the narrative arc of "overcoming" is a popular one, but it isn't the only effective or attractive alternative to "wallowing".
> 
> Personally, I'm more impressed by a man who owns his vulnerability more openly. Who acknowledges his emotions for both good and bad. The idea that I should feel "special" because only I get to see that side of him? Doesn't mean anything to me. Indeed, that he is so walled off that he can only show me his "underbelly" strikes me as a giant red flag.


For me, anytime someone is sharing their weakness or vulnerability to me (while being "real", not for some kind of show or whatever), while my empathy is kicked in, I simply don't think of whether I'm attracted to them or not. That's why it is kind of odd to me that others might say so definitively "I'm turned off by weakness" or not attracted to someone in their weak areas. Once my empathy is kicked in, attraction for them is simply not on my radar....I do feel a connection to them though, through the empathy I am feeling.

Then when the moment is over, I usually feel a slight increase in my attraction for that person. Perhaps this is some kind of maternal thing kicking in, but I definitely feel it. It is probably because of the connection felt while I was feeling empathy also creates a type of intimacy or closeness.


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> I agree that nobody loves a whiner. But I disagree that the only attractive response to vulnerability is to just buck up. I realize the narrative arc of "overcoming" is a popular one, but it isn't the only effective or attractive alternative to "wallowing".


Like?



always_alone said:


> Personally, I'm more impressed by a man who owns his vulnerability more openly. Who acknowledges his emotions for both good and bad. The idea that I should feel "special" because only I get to see that side of him? Doesn't mean anything to me. Indeed, that he is so walled off that he can only show me his "underbelly" strikes me as a giant red flag.


You're of course entitled to your preference. I'm of the opinion that the person that runs around with everything on their sleeve for everyone is naïve and easily abused. It surpasses vulnerability and borders on foolishness.

The key differentiation of all our relationships, is the depth at which we know someone. That depth is directly linked to the amount of vulnerability they are willing to expose to you, and you them. If you expose everything to everyone, I think you're going to have a hard life.

The fact of the matter is that everyone has necessary and proper walls, and not everyone should be let in. So yes, I certainly believe it is special when someone does. It builds connection, fosters intimacy, trust and security beyond that of less close relationships.

There's a lot more to it than acknowledging good or bad emotions imo. But really, I think you're just arguing with me to argue with me - more as a rejection of my belief in methodical approaches to improving or overcoming weaknesses. That's fine. If someone is afraid of dancing, they can certainly say "dancing is just not for me". Some might consider that proper acceptance or contentment. I believe it's a cowardly retreat into ignorance - you don't even know if you'd enjoy it, because you're paralyzed by the fear of it. If we replace jealousy with something more vulnerable, say, severe jealousy or inadequacy... well, I'm not so certain we'd be so quick to adopt "acceptance". If we're going to say men should be expressive and vulnerable, then expressing those without action is just whining - empathy will be short lived. Expressing them with acceptance is just surrender to a smaller self in avoidance (ie "I feel inadequate. I am inadequate"). Expressing these things and working on them is both real and admirable (ie "I feel inadequate, but I handle that by giving my best and focusing on the happiness in whatever I manage/experience.").

There's some sort of added value to a person who feels inadequate enthusiastically taking to a task. I personally have more empathy for them, and an appreciation for what it took for them to have that enthusiasm.


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> You're of course entitled to your preference. I'm of the opinion that the person that runs around with everything on their sleeve for everyone is naïve and easily abused. It surpasses vulnerability and borders on foolishness.
> 
> The key differentiation of all our relationships, is the depth at which we know someone. That depth is directly linked to the amount of vulnerability they are willing to expose to you, and you them. If you expose everything to everyone, I think you're going to have a hard life.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that everyone has necessary and proper walls, and not everyone should be let in. So yes, I certainly believe it is special when someone does. It builds connection and fosters intimacy and security.
> 
> There's a lot more to it than acknowledging good or bad emotions.


You are presenting everything as an extreme dichotomy. But why? It's not like a failure to be perfectly tough and stoic is automatically "wearing everything on your sleeve". In marduk's case, for example, his wife won't tolerate any "boo-boos" at all. But that's her. And maybe him. But lots of us can easily tolerate our own and other's "boo-boos" without getting totally freaked by it, without having it automatically turn into unforgivable, unattractive, disgusting weakness. Indeed, quite the opposite, because (at least to me) it is very attractive when someone is open about these things. To me it makes them more human, more humane, and this is very important to me. I honestly don't get the whole "he-man" trip. It is to my mind just a front, and a red flag, because if you can't just be yourself, you must have something to hide. 

As for "overcoming", not everything has to be overcome. It's actually just okay to find things upsetting, hurtful, frightening, nerve-wracking, or whatever. Just because we acknowledge these things doesn't mean we're wallowing in them, or weak, or unwilling to leave our comfort zone, or "wearing everything on our sleeve". Or unattractive. Of course, there will be those who will judge us as such. But so? There are lots who won't.


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> LIf we're going to say men should be expressive and vulnerable, then expressing those without action is just whining - empathy will be short lived. Expressing them with acceptance is just surrender to a smaller self in avoidance (ie "I feel inadequate. I am inadequate").


I'm curious: what do you think about women being expressive and vulnerable? Do you have a different answer for them?

And why do you equate vulnerability with inadequacy? To my mind they are not at all the same things.


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> You are presenting everything as an extreme dichotomy. But why? It's not like a failure to be perfectly tough and stoic is automatically "wearing everything on your sleeve".


That's not at all what I'm presenting. You took specific issue with my relating that someone felt "special" for the intimate access they were given. It is my assertion that the closeness (special) of a relationship is relative to the access granted - the degree to which we open up. Your retort was that this doesn't make you feel special at all, and implied a sort of generalized access, as if everyone should be party to that expressiveness. I reject that. That is "wearing everything on your sleeves". The dichotomy is my rephrasing the necessary product of what it seems YOU'RE saying. If you're not more special for having more access, and that access should be general, then you're seemingly arguing for everyone to be intimately open to everyone - ergo, "wearing everything on your sleeves". Otherwise, I don't understand the issue your taking at all, and I'm rather sorry that it doesn't make you feel special that your husband opens up to you more than anyone else in the world. I'm rather confused by that. The things someone reserves for me certainly make me feel like I have a special place in their life. 

You either misunderstood me, or weirdly took issue with your being "special" by reason of intimate access as some sort of demeaning position. But that is exactly how we behave with the people who are special to us. We show more of ourselves. Across the entire spectrum of human relationships, closeness is tied to what we share. The person with whom the most intimate things are shared, is the most special to us.



always_alone said:


> In marduk's case, for example, his wife won't tolerate any "boo-boos" at all. But that's her. And maybe him. But lots of us can easily tolerate our own and other's "boo-boos" without getting totally freaked by it, without having it automatically turn into unforgivable, unattractive, disgusting weakness.


What I'm saying is that it's not the boo boo that does the damage. It's crying over it without doing anything about it.



always_alone said:


> Indeed, quite the opposite, because (at least to me) it is very attractive when someone is open about these things. To me it makes them more human, more humane, and this is very important to me. I honestly don't get the whole "he-man" trip. It is to my mind just a front, and a red flag, because if you can't just be yourself, you must have something to hide.


You're viewing an overly narrow scope. As I said, yes, I think these things promote "realness" or "genuineness"... and empathy. But there's only so much "woe is me" expression or vulnerability before empathy erodes, if one is never doing anything to handle it. I'm afraid. I'm afraid. I'm afraid. Eventually loses traction. It becomes whiney, weak, erodes connection and is unattractive in the long run. NobodySpecial is relating this I think.

There is no he-man trip about it. I don't even know where you get that from. There's no "be yourself" to it either, unless you believe you are defined by your vulnerabilities, fears and insecurities. Why do you consider this intrinsic to being YOU? Are you someone different having overcome a fear?? This whole angle you're taking makes no sense to me. I'm afraid every time I line my bike up on the starting grid. Am I faking the race? Faking being a racer? Presumably not racing because it scares me is being myself? What am I hiding? You've lost me.



always_alone said:


> As for "overcoming", not everything has to be overcome. It's actually just okay to find things upsetting, hurtful, frightening, nerve-wracking, or whatever. Just because we acknowledge these things doesn't mean we're wallowing in them, or weak, or unwilling to leave our comfort zone, or "wearing everything on our sleeve". Or unattractive. Of course, there will be those who will judge us as such. But so? There are lots who won't.


If you want to race, yeah, you need to overcome the fear of crashing. If you want a girlfriend, yeah, you need to overcome the fear of rejection. So on and so forth.

Perhaps there's nothing you want that requires overcoming a particular fear, insecurity or vulnerability (we know that's not true don't we?). It's all good then, whatever you find upsetting, hurtful or frightening isn't limiting you. For most people however, these things ARE limiting. If you want something and remain limited by fears, while doing nothing about them, then damn straight you're wallowing. You're just whining.

Of course, if that vulnerability/fear/insecurity didn't hinder something you want in some way, then you probably wouldn't be talking about it at all. It would be effectively meaningless.


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> I'm curious: what do you think about women being expressive and vulnerable? Do you have a different answer for them?


I view it the same as I do for men. I wasn't making gender an issue. I was only thinking about how expression might be viewed as weak/whiney in one case and intimacy building in another, without any change to empathy. I think the crux of it is simply getting tired of hearing complaints about things a person won't do anything about.



always_alone said:


> And why do you equate vulnerability with inadequacy? To my mind they are not at all the same things.


I'm trying to express more than what my motorcycle racing analogy will. I view emotional vulnerability as our fears, doubts, insecurities, dependencies, and ways in which we are particularly sensitive or may be hurt.

Feeling inadequate is a type of vulnerability imo. You're not just going to tell any given person that you feel inadequate. I was reaching for a more abstract/ethereal example than "fear of dying in a motorcycle crash", which is a pretty "real", justifiable thing. 

Any particular reason you wouldn't consider it a vulnerability, like any other insecurity? What would you consider vulnerable then? This is all the same family of things to me.


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> There is no he-man trip about it. I don't even know where you get that from. There's no "be yourself" to it either, unless you believe you are defined by your vulnerabilities, fears and insecurities. Why do you consider this intrinsic to being YOU? Are you someone different having overcome a fear?? This whole angle you're taking makes no sense to me. I'm afraid every time I line my bike up on the starting grid. Am I faking the race? Faking being a racer? Presumably not racing because it scares me is being myself? What am I hiding? You've lost me.


Clearly we don't speak the same language at all. You don't understand me, and I don't understand you.

I wasn't "taking issue" with anything. I was just pointing out my perspective, and how different it is from yours, and others who think vulnerability as "unattractive" and "weak". And more specifically in response to your post, the idea that the solution is to strategize and control. The idea that you had to have every move mapped out in your head, to be always in control, the outside appearance always "oozing wit and charm", knowing every move.

I'm a very different kind of person. I don't ooze wit, or charm. I sometimes stumble on my words, or don't have the answer at the ready. I almost never have a plan, and am not really out to "win" anything. I don't try to manage people's impressions of me or "score" with who I want. I don't mind if people see my vulnerabilities. To my mind, if you're genuinely stepping out of your comfort zone, vulnerabilities pretty much *have* to be visible. Newbies to whatever world are always obvious in their ignorance and lack of grace.

And so, instead of worrying about weakness or strength, or good or bad, I just let go, and see what happens.

That's just me, that's just my approach. Obviously you have quite a different one.


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## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> For me, anytime someone is sharing their weakness or vulnerability to me (while being "real", not for some kind of show or whatever), while my empathy is kicked in, I simply don't think of whether I'm attracted to them or not. That's why it is kind of odd to me that others might say so definitively "I'm turned off by weakness" or not attracted to someone in their weak areas. Once my empathy is kicked in, attraction for them is simply not on my radar....I do feel a connection to them though, through the empathy I


I find it odd too. I wouldn't say that establishing an emotional connection is enough for attraction, indeed it is at least somewhat independent of it. But for me, it would absolutely add to any existing attraction. It certainly wouldn't detract from it.

I mean, we all have these weaknesses and vulnerabilities. And our strong points. It's what makes us human. How can that be a turn-off?


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## Faithful Wife

always_alone said:


> I find it odd too. I wouldn't say that establishing an emotional connection is enough for attraction, indeed it is at least somewhat independent of it. But for me, it would absolutely add to any existing attraction. It certainly wouldn't detract from it.
> 
> I mean, we all have these weaknesses and vulnerabilities. And our strong points. It's what makes us human. How can that be a turn-off?


Maybe attraction isn't the right word. And it wouldn't apply as sexual attraction in all cases. Because it may be a co-worker or a child, for instance, exposing their vulnerability. It maybe makes me have more respect for them or something like that...but attraction is the word I keep feeling is right, even though it isn't quite. Maybe emotional attraction versus physical attraction...though the physical or sexual attraction MAY be there, too.

I tend to be attracted to a lot of people, and this is one of the reasons why.


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## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> Maybe attraction isn't the right word. And it wouldn't apply as sexual attraction in all cases. Because it may be a co-worker or a child, for instance, exposing their vulnerability. It maybe makes me have more respect for them or something like that...but attraction is the word I keep feeling is right, even though it isn't quite. Maybe emotional attraction versus physical attraction...though the physical or sexual attraction MAY be there, too.
> 
> I tend to be attracted to a lot of people, and this is one of the reasons why.


Yeah, I hear ya! I was thinking sexual attraction, but it's surely the right word for other kinds of attraction as well.

And I'm kind of the same way. I really don't get the fixation on celebrities and supermodels as this "ideal" or only standard of beauty, attractiveness or desirability. I'm just as likely to be drawn to the old dude in the dapper suit with the beautific smile as to some Calvin Klein underwear model.


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## heartsbeating

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> So yes, I certainly believe it is special when someone does. It builds connection, fosters intimacy, trust and security beyond that of less close relationships.


I absolutely agree with this.

And there is a privilege I feel when he shares his vulnerabilities with me. In the past there's been times that I haven't handled them well which had nothing to do with him and all to do with me. 

When I acknowledged this to myself, his ability to be vulnerable with me actually inspired me to be the same. I no longer retreat to music, to my own mind to work things out. Before I would have been quick to mentally cut-and-run (for lack of better term). I didn't even realize I did this. Then I began to let him in. Thinking back, that almost feels like a different person to who I am now. It wasn't an intentional wall. Now I share the often awkward, embarrassing, uncertain thoughts and feelings _with_ him; including the thought process of when I'm muddling through it all. 

I feel that sharing in that vulnerability, actually builds and enhances trust and intimacy. That is why I feel a sense of privilege when he, or a close friend, or whoever, is open with me in that way. There's an intimacy and trust about that. It's knowing this about one another and respecting it, cherishing, and if needed, helping. 

The intention, which is key to me, isn't for him to make me feel special. He's just being himself and letting me in. While vulnerability itself wouldn't necessarily attract me to him sexually, what I do find attractive is the trust and respect he has in me, and our marriage (and himself, let's face it), to be vulnerable in the first place. I also find his thought-process and self awareness to be interesting and even amidst his insecurities and admission of limitations, well, I find that to be inspiring.


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> I'm a very different kind of person. I don't ooze wit, or charm. I sometimes stumble on my words, or don't have the answer at the ready. I almost never have a plan, and am not really out to "win" anything. I don't try to manage people's impressions of me or "score" with who I want. I don't mind if people see my vulnerabilities. To my mind, if you're genuinely stepping out of your comfort zone, vulnerabilities pretty much *have* to be visible. Newbies to whatever world are always obvious in their ignorance and lack of grace.
> 
> And so, instead of worrying about weakness or strength, or good or bad, I just let go, and see what happens.
> 
> That's just me, that's just my approach. Obviously you have quite a different one.


We really do see this differently. I don't view preparation, or strategy as "managing impressions". There's no concealment of weakness. It's rather, how do you take on the things you want to do, when your fears limit you? As I tried to relate, it isn't about not having those fears, or not worrying about them or hiding them. If you want to do x, you have to handle them.

I used to suck at public speaking. I avoided it. But I wanted to be proficient, so I took steps that enable me to do so. Some of those steps I still have to walkthrough mentally before giving a presentation. It still intimidates me for no particular reason. Yet, because of what I do to get past that, I'm pretty good at it and even find some of it enjoyable.

The point behind relating this isn't some macho "get over it" thing. The point is that I still find it to be intimidating, even though I'm now proficient. When I express such things to someone, they're always surprised, having thought me a "naturally fluid speaker" and tend to find me more relatable. That seems to be appealing in some sense.

Contrast that with if I had not taken these steps and remained paralyzed, yet still complained about my fear of public speaking. You just come off as a complainer or a whiner eventually.

So this leaves me with the impression that the reason one man's expression of vulnerability is thought weak and whiney, and another's genuine and appealing, is the context of what he's doing about it. The former never takes any steps to over come it. The impression is that when women express a desire for an "emotionally available, expressive and vulnerable" guy, they're not asking for a guy who constantly relates all the depressing insecure feelings that he's allowing to hold him back. Here's a kinda silly one I've heard: one of my xgfs used to be married. During the marriage, she paid all the bills, called for service etc. On occasion, she'd ask her husband to call and dispute something. He never would, and would just pay the bill. Turned out that disputing such things intimidated him and it extended to virtually any sort of "calling in" for service. After this was expressed, it became his regular excuse for not handling things. So she was forced to always handle them and eventually thought him pretty pathetic and incapable, which eventually turned into "unattractive". This tells me that there's a context to admitting vulnerability. Women want the guy who won't be held back by them, but will express them. Admitting self-doubts, fears etc, but facing them down. That guy becomes more real and relatable than the seemingly uber confident and proficient self he achieves with preparation and other steps taken to overcome fears. That adds value. The other guy, all you're hearing is all the things he'll never do... over and over.

Also, I don't see not being new to something or not being good at something as a vulnerability. Vulnerability to my mind is being afraid of something. I have a guy friend who is crazy jealous and paranoid. He's undoubtedly afraid to trust and he strangles his relationships. I tell him all the time that most women are pretty good about appreciating jealous feelings, but he has to take steps to get a handle on it. His expressing his jealousy doesn't get much empathy or appreciate when he's controlling and paranoid. If he figures out how to handle it and risk trusting however, expressing his jealous feelings will probably be met with more appreciation for whatever he's done to meet that personal challenge, and make him more real, and foster accommodations. ie - he struggles with jealousy, but does his best to trust and not smother her with it (effort), so she empathizes and appreciates his struggle and maybe does a bit more to help assure him.


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## DvlsAdvc8

heartsbeating said:


> The intention, which is key to me, isn't for him to make me feel special.


Loved your post, and I just wanted to point out that I really did not intend the phrase "makes her feel special" to indicate any sort of intended outcome.

It's just that the intimate things that someone reserves for only you, or limited close friends, comes with a sense that you're privileged or special to them that they would share it with you.


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## Kitt

@marduk I really love where this thread has gone....talking about vulnerability is so important. In a marriage, my view is that being safe and no longer playing games is the sign that you truly love and respect and accept each other, but it is just an opinion, of course. Her lack of appreciation for your vulnerability is the point I was tripping up over about you having to be someone other than who you are in order to get your wife's attention. It is a dichotomy to me how intimacy can be built on faux personas/externals.
Do you have any insight to how that is possible with your wife? Why it is needed for her? What intimacy means to her and if you feel that having to work so damn hard to "change" is fair to you? Do you feel regret or resentment that she couldn't just love and respect you for the man she married in the first place? Please forgive me if I'm derailing...just really wanted your perspective now on the process of becoming different for another person and if it sometimes feels hollow or if it feels worth it? Oh, and I do understand that relationships are fluid and we are all working on making them better so this isn't a method criticism, but an honest enquiry on how you feel deep down about the process you had to go through.


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## Marduk

Kitt said:


> @marduk I really love where this thread has gone....talking about vulnerability is so important. In a marriage, my view is that being safe and no longer playing games is the sign that you truly love and respect and accept each other, but it is just an opinion, of course. Her lack of appreciation for your vulnerability is the point I was tripping up over about you having to be someone other than who you are in order to get your wife's attention. It is a dichotomy to me how intimacy can be built on faux personas/externals.


I don't think it's a faux persona. I think being independant and not emoting my boo-boos is my default mode.

I think problems happened when I had to come out of that mode on two occasions: when she started going out all the time, and again when she flirted with an EA.

Because both of those things kinda shook my identity, you know? As in "husband" and "father."

I did have to re-learn that these are clothing I wear, not who I am. It's easy to slip into grooves, there. And I can see why suddenly emoting about our relationship would be a shock and giant lady boner-killer for her.



> Do you have any insight to how that is possible with your wife? Why it is needed for her? What intimacy means to her and if you feel that having to work so damn hard to "change" is fair to you?


I don't know if it's possible. Layers of it is possible. There are places that she cannot go. And places I cannot go. Or at least will not.

For example, I refuse to go to a place that she would very much like me to go, which is that her going out all the time was simply a misperception and coincidence, and an innocent one. To me, that smacks of a lack of accountability about the whole thing, so I won't go there.

She refuses to go to the reverse place, which is that the whole thing damaged us, and sent us adrift. That we ended up in a better place, but at the cost of intimacy and to some extent, trust. To her, it all just happened.


> Do you feel regret or resentment that she couldn't just love and respect you for the man she married in the first place? Please forgive me if I'm derailing...just really wanted your perspective now on the process of becoming different for another person and if it sometimes feels hollow or if it feels worth it? Oh, and I do understand that relationships are fluid and we are all working on making them better so this isn't a method criticism, but an honest enquiry on how you feel deep down about the process you had to go through.


I don't resent it. Resentment hurts only the person that holds onto it. So I've let that go.

I've had to come to a place where I realize that the person I married is an amazing, wonderful woman... who has her limitations. And those limitations constrain where it is possible for us to go.

I haven't fully accepted that, I'm still trying to find ways through that instead of giving up on it. But I'm finding it increasingly unlikely. It would be like trying to explain jazz to me -- I'll never understand it.

It's worth it. One can't have everything. I have more than most. Certainly more than most that I know of -- my wife expresses her love and gratitude towards me often. We do well together most of the time. We have high levels of attraction for each other. We co-parent mostly well. We have a good life and fun together.

I'm just not sure she will ever be the person I will confide in with my deepest darkest fears, concerns, vulnerabilities. At least past a very surface one-liner of it, anyway. And I don't think that's because she doesn't want it -- she desperately does. 

She just doesn't understand what it would entail, or how to do it, or what that would mean. 

Anyway, you can't have everthing. I have a beautiful wife who dotes on me, is happy to have frequent and fun sex with me, and is generally respectful of me. Except when she isn't those things, of course. But such things are to be expected, and managed, I guess.

Life in general is pretty sweet.


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> So this leaves me with the impression that the reason one man's expression of vulnerability is thought weak and whiney, and another's genuine and appealing, is the context of what he's doing about it. The former never takes any steps to over come it. The impression is that when women express a desire for an "emotionally available, expressive and vulnerable" guy, they're not asking for a guy who constantly relates all the depressing insecure feelings that he's allowing to hold him back. Here's a kinda silly one I've heard: one of my xgfs used to be married. During the marriage, she paid all the bills, called for service etc. On occasion, she'd ask her husband to call and dispute something. He never would, and would just pay the bill. Turned out that disputing such things intimidated him and it extended to virtually any sort of "calling in" for service. After this was expressed, it became his regular excuse for not handling things. So she was forced to always handle them and eventually thought him pretty pathetic and incapable, which eventually turned into "unattractive". This tells me that there's a context to admitting vulnerability. Women want the guy who won't be held back by them, but will express them. Admitting self-doubts, fears etc, but facing them down. That guy becomes more real and relatable than the seemingly uber confident and proficient self he achieves with preparation and other steps taken to overcome fears. That adds value. The other guy, all you're hearing is all the things he'll never do... over and over.


Well, as I said before, I do agree that no one loves a whiner. And so you're probably right that those who are incessantly whiny aren't helping attraction any. I was coming at it more from the angle of what was I reading from MEM, who said that his wife's response to any expression of fear is fury, and marduk, who has basically said that his wife will lose all attraction for him the moment he expresses or reveals "boo-boos".

I don't really see anything especially whiny or unwilling to do anything about their troubles in either of their stories. Indeed, quite the contrary. Yet somehow, their wives see them as unattractive the minute they falter in any way, and expect them to keep all negative emotions carefully hidden from view.

I find this puzzling, personally, and very far from what I would normally expect/see.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Also, I don't see not being new to something or not being good at something as a vulnerability. Vulnerability to my mind is being afraid of something.


I would add that I also define vulnerability much more broadly than you do. Certainly fear is one source of vulnerability, as are insecurities. But I see vulnerability as taking a risk, exposing oneself (or being exposed) to danger, whether that danger be emotional or physical.

We are vulnerable in all sorts of ways, IMHO. And while we can take steps to manage the dangers, as you suggest, we aren't ever completely invulnerable.


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> I'm just not sure she will ever be the person I will confide in with my deepest darkest fears, concerns, vulnerabilities. At least past a very surface one-liner of it, anyway. And I don't think that's because she doesn't want it -- she desperately does.
> 
> She just doesn't understand what it would entail, or how to do it, or what that would mean.


Can you confide in her and show your vulnerability if it doesn't have to do with her hurting you? I think I understand the part where she doesn't want to take responsibility for the EA...but what about other things you are vulnerable about and have fears and weaknesses?

I also know you don't mean you would wear these things on your sleeve all the time.


----------



## Marduk

The thing I keep coming back to FW is that each time she's pulled the rug out were times where I was the most like that. About everything.

I'm not talking about whining. I'm talking about treating her like I would one of my best buddies, or even more so. After a few months of openness... there would be a tipping point where everything would go topsy-turvy.

What's the point in going back there?

Sometimes leaders have to lead. Alone.


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> The thing I keep coming back to FW is that each time she's pulled the rug out were times where I was the most like that. About everything.
> 
> I'm not talking about whining. I'm talking about treating her like I would one of my best buddies, or even more so. After a few months of openness... there would be a tipping point where everything would go topsy-turvy.
> 
> What's the point in going back there?
> 
> Sometimes leaders have to lead. Alone.


I wasn't saying going back there, I was just wondering if any vulnerability made her act like this, or only stuff that had to do with how she had hurt you. I think your answer means, any vulnerability you show consistently eventually makes her go wonky.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I wasn't saying going back there, I was just wondering if any vulnerability made her act like this, or only stuff that had to do with how she had hurt you. I think your answer means, any vulnerability you show consistently eventually makes her go wonky.


Yes, just to a lesser or greater extent, and quickly or slowly.

Just one thing to add is that I've reflected on relationships past, and feel that this kind of effect was always there with all of them.

And, with my buddys marriages, too. There seems to be a common thread there.

Now, maybe theres a different feeling between what I think being vulnerable is, and what the women in my life think it is. But it seems reasonably commen with other guys as well.

Again, to a lesser or a greater extent.


----------



## Kitt

I guess I'm an odd woman then.... My husband and I are both leaders so that may make a difference in how we relate. We both have our strengths and equal responsibility in all aspects of our love story, financials, etc. I'm just glad you are happy now....I think there are different methods to achieving a well balanced life. Thanks for sharing.


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## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> Yes, just to a lesser or greater extent, and quickly or slowly.
> 
> Just one thing to add is that I've reflected on relationships past, and feel that this kind of effect was always there with all of them.
> 
> And, with my buddys marriages, too. There seems to be a common thread there.
> 
> Now, maybe theres a different feeling between what I think being vulnerable is, and what the women in my life think it is. But it seems reasonably commen with other guys as well.
> 
> Again, to a lesser or a greater extent.


It is very confusing to me. But it makes sense that your circle of friends and acquaintances are similar to you and have similar experiences.

Same way that all my gf's are naughty sl*ts with hearts of gold (blink blink), and there's a lot of similar experiences we have. The vulnerability piece has never been an issue for anyone I've been close to, men or women. But there have been many other issues that are hard to deal with that are similar.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> It is very confusing to me. But it makes sense that your circle of friends and acquaintances are similar to you and have similar experiences.
> 
> Same way that all my gf's are naughty sl*ts with hearts of gold (blink blink), and there's a lot of similar experiences we have. The vulnerability piece has never been an issue for anyone I've been close to, men or women. But there have been many other issues that are hard to deal with that are similar.


A question that may seem like it's a pot shot but isn't: would you actually know if you were, or weren't? Impacted by vulnerability in men?

Here's why I'm testing that.

My wife may ask me how work was today. And I may say something like "Man, that executive meeting was rough. My boss really doesn't support me, even as he rides my coat-tails about it. I don't know what to do about it, I'm making a plan to move departments." The end.

To my wife, I think she would think I was expressing my pain and vulnerability. And to some extent, at a very surface level I would be. And at a surface level, she would empathize - "that sucks. Maybe you should talk to your old boss about it." or whatever.

And all that is good.

When underneath all that are unspoken insecurities. 

What if I get fired -- how will she see me then? As a failure? How long can we last before we run out of money? Could I find a job making as much money quickly? How would it impact the kids? 

Etc, etc, etc...

That's the real vulnerable stuff. That I have, on very small occasions, taken to her. And it has not gone well. Nor with my ex wife, nor girlfriends. I may get a shot in the arm and a "buck up, little camper" speech, but that's it.

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. If things are very rough, and I mean VERY rough, I may have that surface conversation. And even those need to be pretty infrequent and short.

But I struggle with thinking that a conversation about what's underneath that would go very well.

And nor, I guess, would I expect it to. I mean, I'd be leaning on my wife then, not the other way around. This may be vastly overgeneralizing, but in my experience leaning on my romantic partner, even very briefly, has not gone well.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I have talked to my current and my ex-husband about similar issues (like their job situations) hundreds of times. I have listened to and empathized with them both on much more serious issues than that plus many less serious issues than that. Both have always been free to open up to me that way. In fact, I want to know those things because my husband's mood and what ever he is going through at any given time affects me and my life, too. If he's holding something in, he will act weird and I'll know it and encourage him to open up...even if it is about me. 

When I said the vulnerability piece has never been an issue for me or anyone I've been close to, I meant that I've never ever heard anyone say they lose their attraction for their partner when he or she opens up like that....I did not mean that they *don't* open up like that.

I've been through a lot of tough things and so have both of my husbands during our marriages...we've had several people die, we've lost jobs, we've lost or gained friends, we've had very difficult things with our kids we had to deal with (stuff I can't even discuss here because it is too painful), we've had surgeries and biopsies and have sick or dying relatives who have needed our help (and therefore, we leaned on each other for support)...there has never been a moment in either of my marriages when I wasn't right there to help, listen, lean in, lean on, prop up, support or do whatever was needed. And I never once lost any attraction over it. I've seen both of them sob like babies at funerals or even just during extremely stressful times between us (times I was sobbing as well). 

So what you are describing to me is totally foreign, I can't even imagine it. If I was with a man who could not express these emotions or just didn't have them, I would end it fairly quickly. I wouldn't be able to be with someone who wasn't in touch with his own vulnerabilities.

With my current husband, I know I could crush his heart....(and he could mine)....and the way I know this is because we make it clear to each other that we are vulnerable to each other, and therefore, we take extra special care of each other's hearts.


----------



## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> So what you are describing to me is totally foreign, I can't even imagine it. If I was with a man who could not express these emotions or just didn't have them, I would end it fairly quickly. I wouldn't be able to be with someone who wasn't in touch with his own vulnerabilities.
> 
> With my current husband, I know I could crush his heart....(and he could mine)....and the way I know this is because we make it clear to each other that we are vulnerable to each other, and therefore, we take extra special care of each other's hearts.


Ditto. I also can't even imagine not being able to share these things. I would feel so cut off and distant; I wouldn't be able to stand it.

And we too have faced many issues like job insecurity, illness, family issues, and so on. But even when these things aren't going on, we freely express emotions and vulnerabilities. For example, one time on vacation, we went to this particularly poignant and historical cemetary. And he was totally moved to tears by the experience. The place didn't have quite that strong an effect on me, but I most certainly didn't think lesser of him for it. Quite the contrary.


----------



## Marduk

I can quite honestly say I have never experienced anything approaching what you two are talking about FW and A_A.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Yet somehow, their wives see them as unattractive the minute they falter in any way, and expect them to keep all negative emotions carefully hidden from view.
> 
> I find this puzzling, personally, and very far from what I would normally expect/see.


That does seem bizarre. I took it as hyperbole.

Though, I suppose you could make a case that maybe their father's were stoic captain types, and that's their view of what a good man is or should be.

Dunno. My thoughts were just on why the same woman with the same capacity for empathy might view one expression as weak and another as depth.


----------



## tech-novelist

marduk said:


> I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.
> 
> A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.
> 
> Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed?_ Me._ Here’s what I learned:
> 
> *1.	Let her go.* You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.
> 
> *2.	Set boundaries, and then stick to them.* I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.
> 
> *3.	Be ok with losing her.* Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.
> 
> *4.	Do my own thing.* I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…
> 
> *5.	Be a father to our children.* Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.
> 
> *6.	Get some buddies.* Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.
> 
> *7.	Fight different.* Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.
> 
> *8.	Act from a place of strength.* I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.
> 
> *9.	Be decisive.* Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.
> 
> *10.	Know what I want from life.* This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.
> 
> *11.	Do more macho stuff.* Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a _man _ and not one of her girlfriends.
> 
> So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.
> 
> Thanks for everything!


All of your numbered points are straight out of the MMSLP playbook, so I'm not surprised this plan is working for you.

But knowing it and doing it are two different things. Congratulations on walking the walk, not just talking the talk!

:allhail:


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> I can quite honestly say I have never experienced anything approaching what you two are talking about FW and A_A.


I'm sorry, but this is mind-blowing to me. What is a relationship if you aren't there for each other in times of need?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> I would add that I also define vulnerability much more broadly than you do. Certainly fear is one source of vulnerability, as are insecurities. But I see vulnerability as taking a risk, exposing oneself (or being exposed) to danger, whether that danger be emotional or physical.
> 
> We are vulnerable in all sorts of ways, IMHO. And while we can take steps to manage the dangers, as you suggest, we aren't ever completely invulnerable.


Ah, just a stumbling of words. I don't disagree with your definition nor believe in invulnerability.

It's that I intuit a difference between how someone might receive someone's expressions of vulnerability if they aren't doing anything about them but complaining. One way builds intimacy and lasting empathy, the other will see initial empathy wane and may even eventually be bothersome.

One ought to be able to say to one's spouse, "I'm really worried about x". But if you do that all the time without also talking about the ways you're covering it, I think that's going to grate on people, or cost empathy and confidence. Is that not why we don't like whiners? They just whine.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> I'm sorry, but this is mind-blowing to me. What is a relationship if you aren't there for each other in times of need?


What I mean to say is that I've never experienced a concurrent expression of this without a concurrent downturn in the relationship.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Weird. My experience with women seems totally opposite you and yours Marduk. Women have always seemed damn near giddy when they get to have the emo talks, and even more giddy when I'm going to them for support. Things go up with more intimate communication, and down with less. :\

I've always sensed that outwardly, they want me to lead, be confident and sure, but in those quiet hours talking in bed... they want all the info, worry, concerns and depth - vulnerability; they've seemed to want to be my emotional support and counsel... and reinforce me for that next day or tough event.

I kinda liken it to boxing or having a pit crew. I show up battered, wavering or worn... and they patch me up and send me back out to kick butt. Even more, they seem to love the role. There's an internal life and an external life. Externally (to the relationship), they seem to want the leader who always knows how we're going to get through this (particularly when she's worried), and handles sh*t. Outwardly strong. Internally (to the relationship that is), they've wanted depth. Inwardly human in those quiet hours. Hope that comes across.

It seems a little contradictory, but I've always appreciated this about the women I've had that with.

Would you describe yourself as pessimistic? I know a woman who complains about her husband talking about things because he's always pessimistic and won't be deterred. Any of that in play?


----------



## Anon1111

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> If you want to improve at any complex task, the most efficient way is to be methodical. Else, you'll be too inconsistent to effect rapid improvement. Your gains in one area usually lost to the inconsistency of another area, and you probably can't identify that you actually improved - ie, I was faster in turn 1, but I lose that advantage elsewhere on the track, such that my lap times are the same and I never really know that what I was doing in turn 1 was an advantage.
> 
> The "Oh well" approach is fine if improvement truly isn't your aim, but in racing it's potentially deadly.


I think you need both. They're not opposed.

If all you have is method, you will hold back. Sometimes holding back gets you crushed. You need some "oh well."

I've made the analogy before but it is like surfing big waves. Technique is necessary, but not sufficient. You have to be going for it regardless of whether you make it or not. You have to accept not making it. Otherwise, you will get nailed. Any hesistation, you will eat it.

This applies to life generally, I think.


----------



## Marduk

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Weird. My experience with women seems totally opposite you and yours Marduk. Women have always seemed damn near giddy when they get to have the emo talks, and even more giddy when I'm going to them for support. Things go up with more intimate communication, and down with less. :\
> 
> I've always sensed that outwardly, they want me to lead, be confident and sure, but in those quiet hours talking in bed... they want all the info, worry, concerns and depth - vulnerability; they've seemed to want to be my emotional support and counsel... and reinforce me for that next day or tough event.
> 
> I kinda liken it to boxing or having a pit crew. I show up battered, wavering or worn... and they patch me up and send me back out to kick butt. Even more, they seem to love the role. There's an internal life and an external life. Externally (to the relationship), they seem to want the leader who always knows how we're going to get through this (particularly when she's worried), and handles sh*t. Outwardly strong. Internally (to the relationship that is), they've wanted depth. Inwardly human in those quiet hours. Hope that comes across.
> 
> It seems a little contradictory, but I've always appreciated this about the women I've had that with.
> 
> Would you describe yourself as pessimistic? I know a woman who complains about her husband talking about things because he's always pessimistic and won't be deterred. Any of that in play?


I'm usually wildly optimistic. And again, when I have the kinds of surface conversations that you are advocating, all goes well.

I'm talking the deeper stuff.


----------



## Anon1111

marduk said:


> *3.	Be ok with losing her.* Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.


maybe it all just boils down to this?


----------



## Marduk

Anon1111 said:


> maybe it all just boils down to this?


Essentially, yes. It means effectively balancing throwing caution to the winds and letting it all hang out and keeping your hand on the tiller.

For example, my wife wants to have a deeper discussion about how I feel about what happened over the past year... however while getting at that would be somewhat helpful and cathartic to me, it would also trigger a whole crapload of toxic shame in her.

So it's a balance of interests. I can steer the ship knowing full well that it may flounder no matter how I pull on the rudder, and accept that. There are things I can do and things I cannot do. Things I can accept and things I can't accept.

And to handle all that without grasping too tightly and being possessive or freaky insecure about it. Lead through influence and thinking strategically instead of controlling from a place of insecurity.


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## Faithful Wife

Or maybe it boils down to everyone leading themselves and allowing everyone else to be autonomous? 

I can't imagine trying to lead someone else or be led into "being authentic". We are always the only ones who can do that for ourselves. If someone expects you to lead them, they are not being authentic either.

No matter how many times you (marduk) reframe this stuff, it still sounds like you are not being authentic. You are still "trying things" and that still involves trying to control others and their reactions to you.


----------



## jld

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> That does seem bizarre. I took it as hyperbole.
> 
> Though, I suppose you could make a case that maybe their father's were stoic captain types, and that's their view of what a good man is or should be.
> 
> Dunno. My thoughts were just on why the same woman with the same capacity for empathy might view one expression as weak and another as depth.


I think it is because they know they cannot carry the man. His emotion means he needs carrying, at least temporarily, and that looks really scary to some of us.


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## Faithful Wife

jld...what are your thoughts? If Dug expresses his vulnerability to you, say about something going on at work, do you feel a loss of attraction for him?


----------



## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> jld...what are your thoughts? If Dug expresses his vulnerability to you, say about something going on at work, do you feel a loss of attraction for him?


No. I am always attracted to him. But he is not emotional and needy, either. He's not a complainer. 

And he takes my brutal honesty very well. He does not hold it against me. He listens and tries to learn from it. And when he disagrees, he just tells me so. All of that helps maintain my attraction, too.

Sometimes he cries about our son's cancer. That has been a big change from before. Before our son got cancer, he never cried. It really shook dd and me the first time we saw Dug crying. It was really scary to see that.

Our relationship pretty much rests on his strength. If I felt I had to assume half of the responsibility for the marriage, and certainly if I had to assume more, our marriage would feel very different, I think.


----------



## Faithful Wife

jld said:


> Our relationship pretty much rests on his strength. *If I felt I had to assume half of the responsibility for the marriage*, and certainly if I had to assume more, our marriage would feel very different, I think.


I don't see how you don't have half the responsibility, since you are a SAHM.


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## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't see how you don't have half the responsibility, since you are a SAHM.


I suppose it sounds crazy, but it just doesn't feel that way. I lean on him a lot.


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## Faithful Wife

Right, but he also leans on you, as in, he cannot raise children and also work, all by himself. He "needs" you. He also needs you for a lot more than raising children. He needs your love, your support, your nature. He can't do it without you...you both take responsibility for your part in the life you have chosen. You may need him more on some things, he needs you more on other things, together you are each doing your part. That's sharing the responsibility.


----------



## always_alone

jld said:


> Our relationship pretty much rests on his strength. If I felt I had to assume half of the responsibility for the marriage, and certainly if I had to assume more, our marriage would feel very different, I think.


I often think, jld, that you completely underestimate yourself, and what you bring to your relationship. The strength you have in keeping your household together and in caring for your sick child is nothing short of amazing. There is no doubt in my mind that Dug relies on that strength all of the time.

I get what you're saying. Or at least I think I do. You have been called on to carry a lot, and can't really fathom taking on more. And Dug does seem the calm stoic type, not one to let his emotions take over, and that certainly can be reassuring, especially if you aren't absolutely confident yourself how to manage it all. 

And so in your relationship, he is the prime reassuring voice. The one that says, "yes, we will make it, yes we will get through." And that certainly is an important role, especially when times are really hard. Someone has to hold the hope. 

But from where I sit, it's actually the easy job. The hard one is all the slogging that needs to be done to get there.


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## always_alone

marduk said:


> What I mean to say is that I've never experienced a concurrent expression of this without a concurrent downturn in the relationship.


Okay, but what counts as a downturn? Are we talking only sex here? Or other things too?

My SO often keeps things from me because he doesn't want to deal with it. He doesn't want a fight, an argument, or to "upset me". Much better to sweep it under the rug, pretend it's not there. That way there is no "downturn" in the relationship, and we can maintain our "happy" little relationship, no fighting, no arguing, no angst.

The way I see it, both of us could just play this game. There's no real need for us to be open with one another. Why not just cruise along and never talk about anything, never confront anything, never deal with anything? We could just be friendly, polite, optimistic.

But in the end, this would completely kill any desire I have to be with him. I mean, what would be the point? It would all be a lie.


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## Duguesclin

JLD brings a lot to the marriage and I do agree that she underestimate herself all the time. She does not want to disappoint, so she will always try to downplay her abilities.

She can do the work but she does not want the responsibilities. She does not want to carry me and she feel bad when she sees other women being taken advantage by men. She wants my support and my reassurance. I have no doubt if I were to be gone, that she would carry along. The kids would be fine, but she would not. Her emotional quality of life would go down the tube. The responsibility would add to her stress level, and she does not want it. Who would?

For my part, I think it is normal for a man to take charge. Otherwise, what is he good for? He does not go through child birth, he cannot breastfeed and statistically mothers are doing the majority of the child rearing. A man need to take some of the stress.


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## Faithful Wife

Each person in a relationship will always carry themselves, regardless of what it appears from the outside. Every person has their own role in their own life. They may call that role whatever they want, but it is their own life. No one is truly dependent on another person, even if they want to be or try to be. No one is literally going to die without someone else. We all have our inner strength. We may be misguided, depressed, or wish to hand all of our power to someone else once we are adults. But none of that changes the fact that we each walk through life and ultimately into death on our own. We have more fun when we walk through life together, but it still doesn't mean that other person carries us. They are next to us, not under us or on top of us.


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## Blossom Leigh

I am a firm believer in cultivating relationships where each person for the most part learns to self manage well and to be a strong healthy partner and yet fully realize that everyone runs of the rails at some point in their life and need that extra deep support to reemerge into themselves. So, I think it takes a balance. You need to be able to kick some tail when needed, yet dive into the depths of someone else's despair lending them your full oxygen tank until they surface at the top. It takes wisdom to know the difference and to engage each event accurately meeting the needs in that moment. 


Manage the human that shows up moment to moment


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## jld

Well, I feel dependent on Dug. I rely on him for lots of things, material as well as emotional.

It could be that I just do not see myself or my marriage accurately. Or it could be that things really are the way they feel to me to be. Or a mix of both.


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## Faithful Wife

jld said:


> Well, I feel dependent on Dug. I rely on him for lots of things, material as well as emotional.
> 
> It could be that I just do not see myself or my marriage accurately. Or it could be that things really are the way they feel to me to be. Or a mix of both.


I think it is just a way we organize our feelings. We may feel we are dependent or that others depend on us. But that is just a mental organization of our feelings. The reality is that there is no way for another person to actually carry us, but we can feel as if they do. Even still, you are the one who declared to yourself that they carry you and therefore it is just a role you choose to play out. You still are the one making that choice, therefore, it is still you carrying yourself while playing a role where you tell yourself they carry you.

In the same way, we can blame others for our feelings...but it isn't really them who makes you have those feelings. Either good or bad.

This may not make sense, what I'm trying to say, but that's ok, too.


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## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> I think it is just a way we organize our feelings. We may feel we are dependent or that others depend on us. But that is just a mental organization of our feelings. The reality is that there is no way for another person to actually carry us, but we can feel as if they do. Even still, you are the one who declared to yourself that they carry you and therefore it is just a role you choose to play out. You still are the one making that choice, therefore, it is still you carrying yourself while playing a role where you tell yourself they carry you.
> 
> In the same way, we can blame others for our feelings...but it isn't really them who makes you have those feelings. Either good or bad.
> 
> This may not make sense, what I'm trying to say, but that's ok, too.


It is interesting to talk about it. Sometimes feelings are hard to put into words.

Idk. It feels like he carries me, carries the marriage. He is so trustworthy and stable. I can go to him with anything. He can handle it.

We are tied in so tightly together. He is so calm, so committed. He's not needy at all.

Often he has interesting insights. He sees so much that I don't. I just feel like he is so smart, and so good. I feel like I am safe with him.

I read one time that meeting the right partner is like finding the right pitch with a tuning fork. You can't make it happen, but you know it when it happens. It seems effortless, like it was just meant to be.

Dug says we are soul mates, that we are meant to be together. I don't know much about soul mates. I just think it is easy for us to get along. Even when we have conflict, it seems to come back together pretty easily.


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## Faithful Wife

jld said:


> I read one time that meeting the right partner is like finding the right pitch with a tuning fork. You can't make it happen, but you know it when it happens. It seems effortless, like it was just meant to be.


A good analogy because the forks are resonating to get that beautiful sound. However, neither fork carries the other. They have to go at the same pitch on their own. The resonance is the sound of two forks perfectly tuned to each other.


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## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> A good analogy because the forks are resonating to get that beautiful sound. However, neither fork carries the other. They have to go at the same pitch on their own. The resonance is the sound of two forks perfectly tuned to each other.


 

I don't know how else to say it. It is what it feels like, to both Dug and me. Isn't it possible that in our particular relationship, what we both feel to be true, is true?


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## Faithful Wife

Of course it is true for you. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just talking about the bigger picture and the autonomy we all have. We can choose to be dependent on another but even making that choice shows your autonomy.


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## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> Of course it is true for you. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just talking about the bigger picture and the autonomy we all have. We can choose to be dependent on another but even making that choice shows your autonomy.


I am sorry if I sounded defensive. I did not mean to. I really was sincerely asking.


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## always_alone

jld said:


> Idk. It feels like he carries me, carries the marriage. He is so trustworthy and stable. I can go to him with anything. He can handle it.


Yes, but you do realize that he just said the same sorts of things about you? I don't for a minute doubt that he is your rock, lets you lean on him, and takes responsibility for whatever he can so that you don't have to. And hooray, because you are so appreciative, and so much happier for it!

But don't underestimate all the things you do carry. He trusts and relies on you too. Because he knows you can handle it. He just said so!


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## Faithful Wife

You didn't sound defensive at all...you are always speaking from your heart.


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## jld

always_alone said:


> Yes, but you do realize that he just said the same sorts of things about you? I don't for a minute doubt that he is your rock, lets you lean on him, and takes responsibility for whatever he can so that you don't have to. And hooray, because you are so appreciative, and so much happier for it!
> 
> But don't underestimate all the things you do carry. He trusts and relies on you too. Because he knows you can handle it. He just said so!


I think you mean having the kids, breastfeeding, and homeschooling? Yes, I have done those. I know Dug appreciates those. And really, the kids do, too.

But you know they were his idea, right? I did not come into the relationship with any expectations. I did accept his plan, though. I thought I had to, to stay with him. I needed his stability.

And it has turned out well. It was so hard when the kids were little, but I am so glad for every one. And I am glad I listened to Dug. I would not have come up with that plan, but it worked out very well.

I think we are just committed to each other and our family. We make things work. We may each have our role, but we are both contributing. I think that is what you are trying to say. Thank you.


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## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> You didn't sound defensive at all...you are always speaking from your heart.


Oh, FW, you and aa are going to make me cry. You are so kind. 

Dug is in France right now. He is spending this next week with his parents and our three younger boys. They flew over the beginning of May to stay on the farm and improve their French.

I miss him. And I miss the boys, too. But the kind words from you and aa are really a comfort.


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## heartsbeating

always_alone said:


> I would add that I also define vulnerability much more broadly than you do. Certainly fear is one source of vulnerability, as are insecurities. But I see vulnerability as taking a risk, exposing oneself (or being exposed) to danger, whether that danger be emotional or physical.
> 
> We are vulnerable in all sorts of ways, IMHO. And while we can take steps to manage the dangers, as you suggest, we aren't ever completely invulnerable.


I just wanted to chime in that I also view vulnerability as sharing dreams, hopes, desires and all of the above. Often being 'vulnerable' is viewed as sharing fears, insecurities and such. To me, it can encompass all of the above.


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## heartsbeating

always_alone said:


> The way I see it, both of us could just play this game. There's no real need for us to be open with one another. Why not just cruise along and never talk about anything, never confront anything, never deal with anything? We could just be friendly, polite, optimistic.
> 
> But in the end, this would completely kill any desire I have to be with him. I mean, what would be the point? It would all be a lie.


Agreed. 

It's better to face the potential hurts and confrontations, and actually have the opportunity to grow from that, or at the very least, to accept it than to continue in cruise control. So once that's decided, what matters next is what one does about that.


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## heartsbeating

marduk said:


> The thing I keep coming back to FW is that each time she's pulled the rug out were times where I was the most like that. About everything.
> 
> I'm not talking about whining. I'm talking about treating her like I would one of my best buddies, or even more so. After a few months of openness... there would be a tipping point where everything would go topsy-turvy.
> 
> What's the point in going back there?
> 
> Sometimes leaders have to lead. Alone.


It depends how you view a good leader. To me, a good leader is one who can support and place trust in others; likely as they feel grounded within themselves and have self-respect. 

What are the actions of someone with self-respect? What does that look like within a marriage?

And what happens if you let that tipping point just tip completely over? hmm asking that question reminds me of one of your points on page 1.


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## heartsbeating

Faithful Wife said:


> Or maybe it boils down to everyone leading themselves and allowing everyone else to be autonomous?
> 
> I can't imagine trying to lead someone else or be led into "being authentic". We are always the only ones who can do that for ourselves. If someone expects you to lead them, they are not being authentic either.
> 
> No matter how many times you (marduk) reframe this stuff, it still sounds like you are not being authentic. You are still "trying things" and that still involves trying to control others and their reactions to you.


I don't use this phrase often but when I do, it's heartfelt.


.......BOOYAH!


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## Marduk

always_alone said:


> Okay, but what counts as a downturn? Are we talking only sex here? Or other things too?


I mean a gradual but accelerating upturn in **** tests, reduction in desire, and an eventual move towards a destabilization of the relationship.

This could take days, months, or a year... but it's a momentum thing.

The longer it goes the more effort it takes to turn.


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## Marduk

heartsbeating said:


> It depends how you view a good leader. To me, a good leader is one who can support and place trust in others; likely as they feel grounded within themselves and have self-respect.
> 
> What are the actions of someone with self-respect? What does that look like within a marriage?
> 
> And what happens if you let that tipping point just tip completely over? hmm asking that question reminds me of one of your points on page 1.


Then we would be done. She has her limitations, I have mine.


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## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Or maybe it boils down to everyone leading themselves and allowing everyone else to be autonomous?
> 
> I can't imagine trying to lead someone else or be led into "being authentic". We are always the only ones who can do that for ourselves. If someone expects you to lead them, they are not being authentic either.
> 
> No matter how many times you (marduk) reframe this stuff, it still sounds like you are not being authentic. You are still "trying things" and that still involves trying to control others and their reactions to you.


It's not authentic.

Had I known when we were dating what I discovered about my wife when all this happened, and more since, I would never have married her.

That's just the truth.

Now, I could say I'm just staying for the kids. But that wouldn't be true.

I'm staying because she mostly makes me happy, and she works very hard at it. We generally have a good life.

Plus, I don't commit easily. But when I do, I do. I have made a commitment to her, I have given my word that I will, within certain boundaries, make it work. I try very hard to live up to my commitments.

But, when push comes to shove, unless she goes through some radical transformation in IC, I can never be the way I really want to be with her.

Does that mean I must leave her? I hope not. I hope we can get there. Maybe with baby steps. Or maybe there's a path I just don't see yet.

Or, maybe one day I just throw caution to the winds and let the chips fall where they may. Knowing that likely means she will blow the marriage up because it will trigger a lot of stuff in her that is essentally like Kirk saying to the Enterprise "Activate destruct code zero zero zero destruct zero" and expecting her not to blow.


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## Blossom Leigh

Faithful Wife said:


> Or maybe it boils down to everyone leading themselves and allowing everyone else to be autonomous?
> 
> I can't imagine trying to lead someone else or be led into "being authentic". We are always the only ones who can do that for ourselves. If someone expects you to lead them, they are not being authentic either.
> 
> No matter how many times you (marduk) reframe this stuff, it still sounds like you are not being authentic. You are still "trying things" and that still involves trying to control others and their reactions to you.



I actually see him a different way.


I see him trying to balance empathy with leadership and self care.


That honesty about his journey through that learning curve IS his authenticity.


Like many of us his life developed in a way he could not have anticipated, thus he has to reassess and reapply himself in a way that works. He hasn't fully figured it out yet to have deeper peace. But he is being real about that struggle.... thus authentic.


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## Faithful Wife

All I said was that he is unable to be authentic, which he agreed with. It doesn't mean his marriage needs to end, it is just a fact, like he said.


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## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> All I said was that he is unable to be authentic, which he agreed with. It doesn't mean his marriage needs to end, it is just a fact, like he said.


I think what you and BL are saying are two sides of the same coin.

I'm authentically trying to make it work. 

By sometimes choosing to not do what authentically I want to do.


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## Faithful Wife

I get that. And I know there is a lot of good that makes up for some of the bad parts....it is not all one thing or the other.


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## Blossom Leigh

Life is complex for sure....




Marduks wife has a gap in her capacity for empathy because of her triggers, though demonstrates she is willing to be with him and work on herself and for now giving it the best of what she does have. I think he sees this as good enough for now. Marduk is deep waters and longs to share that depth with her, but fears her triggers and understandibly because it just plain ole hurts. I do feel as willing as she is that if she continues to work on her empathy and learns to make him safe, they will get there. Their process will be a slow one, but rewarding none the less. It doesn't have to happen over night. That can be part of the joy of the journey.


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