# BPD traits...breakup styles?



## phaber6 (Mar 15, 2012)

I've only just discovered the BPD thing....but it sure gives me some answers and understanding as to where I've been over the past four years. 

My question is what is the breakup style for the BPD personality. Somewhere I read that there's a strong ability to emotionally disassociate - out of sight really is out of mind. Two weeks away from you and they'll be as far from you emotionally as you might be after six months.

Can't see the 180 going anywhere in this kind of situation.

Any advice, experience, with this anybody?


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## nomoretogive (Oct 29, 2011)

phaber6 said:


> I've only just discovered the BPD thing....but it sure gives me some answers and understanding as to where I've been over the past four years.
> 
> My question is what is the breakup style for the BPD personality. Somewhere I read that there's a strong ability to emotionally disassociate - out of sight really is out of mind. Two weeks away from you and they'll be as far from you emotionally as you might be after six months.
> 
> ...


My husband was recently diagnosed with BPD and I can confirm what you read is one way they handle leaving. It really IS out of sight, out of mind with them, as if you never existed. There are other ways they handle it too and I remember reading an 
online about it. I will see if I can find it and post tomorrow. Baffling how their minds work and the logic they employ!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phaber6 (Mar 15, 2012)

It a no win situation. 

There's no ability to negotiate, everything is your fault, your family's fault. When asked what they would take responsibility for, admitted, after a very long pause to think, was that they had been gullible enough to be taken in by everyone elses lies and misrepresentations. 

Always lived with the anger just below the surface, terrible rows when it erupted. Always angry and accusatory, incredible ability to verbally twist anything. Physically abusive on occasions. 

Rows then culminate in her storming out and leaving for some days...then I have to try and negotiate the terms of the return.

But yes, the infatuation stage was like nothing I'd ever experienced in a relationship, utterly intoxicating. A relationship of incredible highs and appalling lows.


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## yellowsubmarine (Feb 3, 2012)

My STBXH has BPD traits, except he was really quiet and passive aggressive. He didn't yell, raise his voice, nor was destructive.

In a way, I wished he had expressed himself every once in a while.

However, he ceased all communication with me. It baffles me how after being married for more than a decade he can just cut me off of his life. It's like I don't exist anymore.

How did he say he wanted a divorce? In an email attachment (word doc). That's how impersonal they can get.


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## Riverside MFT (Oct 5, 2009)

phaber6, you are referring to Borderline Personality Disorder and not Bi-Polar Disorder, right?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I was wondering the same thing. People always seem to confuse the two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nomoretogive (Oct 29, 2011)

yellowsubmarine said:


> My STBXH has BPD traits, except he was really quiet and passive aggressive. He didn't yell, raise his voice, nor was destructive.
> 
> In a way, I wished he had expressed himself every once in a while.
> 
> ...


my husband is like yours: passive aggressive as they come, and never really engages in any type of.communication. I chuckled when I read how yours sent an email. Mine sent me a text message and then called my oldest son and had him relay the message. Makes you wonder how they justify these things in their mind and simply move on as if they don't know who we are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## solitudeseeker (May 1, 2011)

Ahh, very interesting. My stbxh seems to have Borderline traits, and I certainly found it true that he vanished on me once I moved out last summer. He promised that we would still be friends, that he still liked me and cared about me, that he would not treat me the way I have seen him treat others (members of his family he has turned his back on).

Less than one week after I moved into my apartment, he stopped answering my emails, didn't call to see how things were going, he was just GONE. It hurt a lot for a good long while, but I'm cool with it now.

We do have a teenage daughter, and so we must communicate pretty regularly, but sometimes I have to chase him about "business", and that is pretty annoying. 

And in addition to vanishing on me, he has done a few things that have really hurt our child too, like not calling for three days after I brought her home from the hospital ER after an allergic reaction scare, and not waiting to talk to her after her four theater shows, which caused her to burst into tears after the final show with still no dad waiting in the lobby to tell her she was fabulous.

And these two events occurred just a few days after he had told her that he feared he was losing her! Well yep, neglecting your daughter's emotional needs could very well have that effect. Don't know how he thinks it won't.

I swear the way that man operates boggles my mind. So it actually helps to know that this bizarre out-of-sight-out-of-mind thing is part of the Borderline package. I just repeat my mantra: "He is bananas. He is bananas."


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

When I had my issues (severe abandonment issues), it makes sense to me NOW how I could easily just walk away and not look back.

I think I only looked back on 1 ex. It was devastated but it forced me to change myself (I wasn't a good person at that time).

However, NOW i can see I was just good at turning off. I have had two fathers turn their back on me, and some other family members...so as a child, I learned to just turn off. It helped in relationships too.

Now that I'm better, i honestly don't think i could turn off. When Hubs left me for 3 months this last summer, I was devastated. Maybe had I left, I would have turned off? I am not sure. But I know I won't leave him...so I dont' worry.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Just for the record, everyone displays BPD traits at some level. The only way to know for sure that it is actually Borderline Personality Disorder is if it is diagnosed by a psychiatrist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Willowfin (Jan 2, 2012)

I have been struggling with the break-up of my marraige (previous reply to one of my posts suggest my H had BordPD). Within 3 weeks of leaving (after 16 yrs together) it was like I didn't exist. I kept thinking that his reactions towards me was somehow my fault - even tho I seldom contact him because of his curt replys (email etc) His behaviour is ice cold to say the least. He refuses to believe that he may suffer from BPD and so does his family, altho his mother says he was never 'wired right'. My eyes are opened!! Thanks


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## yellowsubmarine (Feb 3, 2012)

Willowfin said:


> I have been struggling with the break-up of my marraige (previous reply to one of my posts suggest my H had BordPD). Within 3 weeks of leaving (after 16 yrs together) it was like I didn't exist. I kept thinking that his reactions towards me was somehow my fault - even tho I seldom contact him because of his curt replys (email etc) His behaviour is ice cold to say the least. He refuses to believe that he may suffer from BPD and so does his family, altho his mother says he was never 'wired right'. My eyes are opened!! Thanks


I knew something was not right with my husband, sort of in a "not wired right" way. I kept accepting his impulsive reactions, his reactions in social gatherings that left people with raised eyebrows, etc. His father told me that the best thing he ever did was get divorced (I thought to my self... cruel?!?!) Oh well. His mother said to me that retiring from the military is "scary," hence why he doesn't want to be with me. That's non-sense!

Something is just not right with the way they function. 

Whether or not someone is officially diagnosed, we all know who is a bit off and who isn't. From now on, I'm listening to my instinct.

My counselor asked me why I stuck around for so long, and I didn't have an answer for him. Thanks to a previous post with a link to an article with someone with BPD, I realized that was almost verbatim what was going on with us. He behaved in unacceptable terms, and I was just trying to fix problems.

STBXH is "gifted" in that he knows how to manipulate people, and he did manipulate me for years. I think that once they figure out they can no longer continue, they cut you off.

At first I thought he might have someone else he liked more than me, but then I discovered he had been "hanging out" with other women (one who didn't know he was married). I thought he was testing the waters and entering a mid-life crisis. Then I came across BPD. WOW!

I've learned a lot from these forums.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

phaber6 said:


> There's no ability to negotiate, everything is your fault, your family's fault. ...Always lived with the anger just below the surface, terrible rows when it erupted. Always angry and accusatory, incredible ability to verbally twist anything.


Yes, Phaber, that was my experience too -- with my BPDer exW of 15 years. If you would like to read about my experiences -- and those of Maybe with his abusive W -- please see my post in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522.


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## yellowsubmarine (Feb 3, 2012)

What baffles me in my situation is that my husband, while displaying most symptoms of BPD, is passive aggressive. 

Rarely raised his voice, or became physically abusive. It was more of a body language, facial expression. It was very uncomfortable to be near him, but I never feared physical harm. 

What hurt me the most was the emotional aspect of it.

I'm confused. Not quite sure what to think...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

yellowsubmarine said:


> What baffles me in my situation is that my husband, while displaying most symptoms of BPD, is passive aggressive. Rarely raised his voice, or became physically abusive. ...I'm confused. Not quite sure what to think...


Yellow, you are describing what is called a "quiet borderline," a.k.a. a "waif borderline." It is difficult to find any information about them online because, unlike the vast majority of BPDers, the quiet BPDers turn their anger inward on themselves instead of directing it outward. 

Hence, instead of "acting out," these people usually "act in." I say "usually" because all BPDers will occasionally flip from one form of expression (acting out) to the other (acting in). The result is that your H may exhibit the "acting in" behavior 95% of the time when his anger is triggered. 

My exW was the opposite, exhibiting the temper tantrums and verbal abuse nearly all the time when her anger was triggered. Of course, all of the BPDers (loud or quiet) are always carrying that anger right under their skin. You therefore do not have to do anything to create it but, rather, only some minor thing that triggers it.

This does not mean, however, that you escape being punished. Rather, it means you will be punished with icy withdrawal, passive aggressive snide remarks, sly manipulation, hateful glances, and stony silence.

Yellow, I am aware of two excellent articles on this subject. One is A.J. Mahari's description of quiet BPDers at Borderline Personality - The Quiet Acting In Borderline and The Silent Treatment - Nons - Borderline Personality Disorder Inside Out. Mahari emphasizes the coldness and silence that these people use to punish their spouses. Another good article is by therapist Shari Schreiber at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved.. Schreiber focuses on the "poor little me, I am such a victim" behavior of these people. She therefore calls them "waifs." For a YouTube video, you may want to check out Quiet Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) - YouTube.

Significantly, if your H actually is a quiet BPDer, you should know that it is actually a more self-destructive form of BPD -- and thus more dangerous to the BPD sufferer (when the BPD traits are strong). I witnessed my exW, for example, flip suddenly to "acting in" on a few occasions when she was deeply depressed. It really scared me.

I've never seen an explanation of why a small percentage of BPDers are "quiet." I suspect -- but do not know -- that this behavior is what you get when a person suffers from both BPD and AvPD (Avoidant PD). It is common for PD sufferers to suffer from more than one PD. Indeed, most folks diagnosed with one PD are also diagnosed with having one or two others also. Remember, PDs are only groups of behavioral _symptoms_. They are NOT diseases.

Finally, I caution that, if your H really suffers from BPD, the red flags would have started showing right after you got married, if not earlier. Such traits do NOT lie hidden for years and then surface at the end of a marriage. I mention this, Yellow, because you say (in another thread) that you've been with him for over ten years but you don't say when his dysfunctional behavior started showing itself.


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## nomoretogive (Oct 29, 2011)

yellowsubmarine said:


> What baffles me in my situation is that my husband, while displaying most symptoms of BPD, is passive aggressive.
> 
> Rarely raised his voice, or became physically abusive. It was more of a body language, facial expression. It was very uncomfortable to be near him, but I never feared physical harm.
> 
> ...


YellowSub:

I'm beginning to wonder if we aren't sharing the same husband 

Definitely read the articles that Uptown posted below about waif borderlines and see how many "aha" moments you have while reading them. I had done my own research before my H was actually diagnosed, and actually the psychologist that we were seeing for counselor echoed what Uptown said -- that H's like ours also have components of Avoidant Personality Disorder. The articles that Uptown posted, though, were like reading the story of my life. 

Whatever the name is, it definitely will drive you crazy. The lying drove me nuts; the push-pull dynamic left me confused and frustrated; but it was the passive-aggressive stuff I just couldn't handle. I can remember him unplugging my alarm clock so I would miss job interviews, agreeing to handle household responsibilities -- dropping bills off at the post office -- but would "forget" every single time and I would find out via shut-off notices. The P-A stuff is just...dirty and sneaky, and drove me crazy, almost more than anything else. 

There is a book called Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man that is really good; and I just finished Women Who Love Too Much and it was fabulous. It is more about why WE, the spouses, choose to marry guys like this and put up with their BS, because at the end of the day we can only control ourselves. 

It was a difficult to read to see how much responsibility I had in our screwed-up dynamic, but it was an eye-opener I needed to make sure I don't repeat the same mistakes again with the next guy...because guys like this are so flipping charming in the beginning; and then when they start showing their true selves after marriage, it's like we doubt ourselves that it's really happening, sweep stuff under the rug, until it gets to a point that we just can't take it anymore. Looking back now, I can see the signs were there all along; I just chose to ignore them, to think I could fix them and him, and never in my wildest dreams thought they would have this much of an impact on me and my kids. Crazy-making, for sure!!!


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## yellowsubmarine (Feb 3, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Finally, I caution that, if your H really suffers from BPD, the red flags would have started showing right after you got married, if not earlier. Such traits do NOT lie hidden for years and then surface at the end of a marriage. I mention this, Yellow, because you say (in another thread) that you've been with him for over ten years but you don't say when his dysfunctional behavior started showing itself.


You are right. The signs were there. I turned a blind eye to them and figured that I needed to work things out. I fix things and try to find solutions. I'm a problem-solver. I'm realizing that now.

Thanks for the articles. I've learned more about what lies inside of him, what I did to put myself for all this misery, and try to not make the same mistake again. 

When I got married I was young and didn't have all that much experience in relationships. I guess between his traits and mine, we were an "explosive combination."


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## yellowsubmarine (Feb 3, 2012)

nomoretogive said:


> Whatever the name is, it definitely will drive you crazy. The lying drove me nuts; the push-pull dynamic left me confused and frustrated; but it was the passive-aggressive stuff I just couldn't handle. I can remember him unplugging my alarm clock so I would miss job interviews, agreeing to handle household responsibilities -- dropping bills off at the post office -- but would "forget" every single time and I would find out via shut-off notices. The P-A stuff is just...dirty and sneaky, and drove me crazy, almost more than anything else.
> 
> It was a difficult to read to see how much responsibility I had in our screwed-up dynamic, but it was an eye-opener I needed to make sure I don't repeat the same mistakes again with the next guy...because guys like this are so flipping charming in the beginning; and then when they start showing their true selves after marriage, it's like we doubt ourselves that it's really happening, sweep stuff under the rug, until it gets to a point that we just can't take it anymore. Looking back now, I can see the signs were there all along; I just chose to ignore them, to think I could fix them and him, and never in my wildest dreams thought they would have this much of an impact on me and my kids. Crazy-making, for sure!!!


So true! I thought I was the one going crazy. Every single time that I accomplished something in my life, there was total lack of emotion or support. He would purposefully make me upset before job interviews. He never provided emotional support. He always stood on the sidelines watching everything unfold. What I think did him in was that he was not able to control me anymore - I was not there to cater to his "needs." 

He's lied before, but I thought it was harmless (i.e. you look great in that dress!), until I learned of more serious events. I just couldn't believe that my own husband would without certain information for years from me.

His approach to lure other women is very needy. He's been testing the waters for several years now (that I know of). He's like a pest. If they are smart, they'll run away. However, if they are not... oh well, that won't be my problem.

The more I've been reading the articles others have posted, the more I see myself and my relationship identified. It's like history written all over again.

When I come across people that have his personality traits, I actually feel disgusted. I don't want to be around them!


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

You do realize that all of us BPD'ers are not the same? While I understand your feelings, please keep in mind SOME of us do seek help. BPD is not something I would wish on anyone but, we don't ask for this. While it is NOT an excuse for how I've acted, my horribly traumatic childhood and growing up with a mother who I suspect is BPD is well is what made me who I am. I do wish you peace in your life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## yellowsubmarine (Feb 3, 2012)

Pidge70:

Please don't take it personally. I've struggled for years trying to figure out why my husband's stories were inconsistent. We all have our problems and quirks (I know I am not perfect either). But it wasn't until the last few weeks that I realized what may be going on with him. I have found reasonable explanations and articles that describe my situation almost verbatim.

Years ago I suggested counseling, but he declined. I tried to get him help on numerous occasions, but he firmly believed that I should go about life with a smile on my face and that nothing was wrong. I tried. He functions very well in other areas (work). 

I commend anyone that has sought help.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Uptown, thank you so much for mentioning the 'waif' variety of BPD. I've been trying to figure out my STBXH for years. He was diagnosed with severe depression while in college, and OCD was added to that several years ago. We are not sure, but his OCD may be PANDAS-related from rheumatic fever as a child.

It's always seemed to be more than depression and OCD to me, but he's seen countless therapists, and nobody mentioned a PD until my therapist did when I started seeing her after SBTXH's ILYBINILWY speech. So then I started researching. He has many NPD characteristics -- the most judgemental and arrogant person I know -- but seemed more emotional than the characteristics of NPD would indicate. 

BPD seemed to make more sense, but he's only shown destructive anger 3 times that I can think of. He's far more likely to just sink into despair and victimhood. Everything else about BPD fits. I read somewhere that all narcissists are not borderline, but all borderlines are narcissists. Not saying that's strictly true, but visualizing a Venn diagram that way helps. 

Again, it's strange that no therapists have picked up on this, but I think is partly due to them not being aware of the 'quiet' BPD, and partly because STBXH is such a good manipulator. It's pretty easy to hold it together for a 50 minute session, or to just focus on depression and anxiety. In some ways, I wish therapists would ask to speak to spouses more often -- we see things that won't be revealed in session. I read a study a while back where patients self-evaluated, and the patients' spouses and therapists also evaluated them. The spouses were found to be at least as accurate as the patient, often more so. 

I will definitely read those articles, Uptown. Thanks for the links!


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

A couple of questions for those of you here with BPD -- how difficult was it for you to start therapy? Were you resistant to that diagnosis? What finally convinced you?

Thanks!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Angel, I am pleased to hear you found the information on quiet BPDers helpful.


angelpixie said:


> I read somewhere that all narcissists are not borderline, but all borderlines are narcissists.


As I understand it, Angel, an element of narcissism underlies all ten of the PDs. This is not unexpected, given that PD sufferers are all frequently experiencing pain and suffering. Of course, all of us occasionally exhibit narcissistic traits, particularly when we are sick and in pain. My experience, then, is that all people naturally become very self focused -- losing their empathy -- when experiencing strong occurences of pain, depression, or anxiety.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

angelpixie said:


> Uptown, thank you so much for mentioning the 'waif' variety of BPD. I've been trying to figure out my STBXH for years. He was diagnosed with severe depression while in college, and OCD was added to that several years ago. We are not sure, but his OCD may be PANDAS-related from rheumatic fever as a child.
> 
> It's always seemed to be more than depression and OCD to me, but he's seen countless therapists, and nobody mentioned a PD until my therapist did when I started seeing her after SBTXH's ILYBINILWY speech. So then I started researching. He has many NPD characteristics -- the most judgemental and arrogant person I know -- but seemed more emotional than the characteristics of NPD would indicate.
> 
> ...


I am a BPD'er and I have never been diagnosed with NPD.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hisfac (Feb 10, 2012)

Riverside MFT said:


> phaber6, you are referring to Borderline Personality Disorder and not Bi-Polar Disorder, right?





pidge70 said:


> I was wondering the same thing. People always seem to confuse the two.


Every post on this thread is clearly referring to BPD, there's not one post in reference to Bipolar disorder or anything even close to it. Ironically, the only confusion I see is in the two posts quoted above.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hisfac said:


> Ironically, the only confusion I see is in the two posts quoted above.


HisFac, both Pidge and Riverside are well versed on the differences between BD and BPD. They raised the question -- early in the thread -- only to confirm that Phaber was talking about the latter because he had not defined the acronym. Quite a few members mistakenly use "BPD" to refer to bipolar disorder.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> I am a BPD'er and I have never been diagnosed with NPD.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, pidge70, that wasn't what I meant to imply -- I used that phrase in order to help sort out traits that often overlap between PDs.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I think the things you are all talking about with your ex just walking away like you never had anything together is what finally makes me think STBXH is more BPD than NPD. Ns are famous for coming back to their exes for 'supply' when a new relationship doesn't work out, or just when they're scared or need a boost. Once my ex was gone, he was gone. He lied about wanting to try counseling, about 'working on it' when we were still living together, but at one point it was like there was a flip of an internal switch. One night we were really passionate in bed, and I swear, three nights later, he acted like I was a leper. We still slept in the same bed, but we never had sex after that. Maybe kissed a few times. That was it. He never even flirted. That made me feel really bad, because I'd see posts here and on a board for N spouses that I used to post on where LBS had post break-up sex, or at least the ex wanted them to. Mine never, ever did. I was losing weight, looking better, feeling better, etc. You'd think I'd have been more attractive to him, but nothing. He's already moved on to a new person, deep into that infatuation that I remember all too well, and saw glimpses of in his EAs. The highs of the rollercoaster went to them, the lows to me. That made it easy to blame me for the lows, since I was there when the lows happened (well, duh). So it makes more sense now, but it doesn't make it easier. Sigh.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

angelpixie said:


> The highs of the rollercoaster went to them, the lows to me.


Angel, with BPDers, that behavior is common and is called "triangulation." It occurs when the BPDer plays two people (e.g., H and child or H and lover) off one another. Typically one will be split black while the other is being split white. And that treatment can quickly be reversed, e.g., with the BPDer suddenly favoring her H over the lover.


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## hisfac (Feb 10, 2012)

Uptown said:


> HisFac, both Pidge and Riverside are well versed on the differences between BD and BPD. They raised the question -- early in the thread -- only to confirm that Phaber was talking about the latter because he had not defined the acronym. Quite a few members mistakenly use "BPD" to refer to bipolar disorder.


I guess I don't see the point in them raising the question being that every post on this thread clearly relates to BPD and not Bipolar, no confirmation is necessary, and by them raising the question about the two terms being confused quite often, it causes confusion when there was none prior to them raising the question.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Wow! I've read several of the articles on the Shari Schreiber page, and it's like an epiphany! I see me in the fixer/caregiver type and he is definitely the 'waif.' There's also a section called 'The Boy Who Cried Waif' in the article 'Borderline Males I've Known, and Almost Loved.' And the article 'Could My BPD Lover Be Right About Me?' has good information about the partner of a BPD person. I saw a lot of our relationship in these articles. I even printed them out, highlighted sections and made notations and I'm giving them to my therapist when I see her next.


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## yellowsubmarine (Feb 3, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> I even printed them out, highlighted sections and made notations and I'm giving them to my therapist when I see her next.


Me too! I see my counselor this Friday. I feel better now that I can find a somewhat reasonable explanation for what I have been experiencing all along.

Makes me wonder if I had known any of this stuff before if I could have done something about it... wait a second... that's me trying to fix things again :scratchhead:

What I find interesting in the articles is that they basically say to the other person (non-BPD) to move on, not necessarily hints on how to help alleviate the situation. I wonder if this is for a reason...


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

OMG! I just got thru the Shari Schreiber page and im so a fixer/care giver- wow! thanks angelpixi - im not sure yet if he is BPD but im going to keep reading- thanks this is prob the most informative article i have read


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

This is so me its ridiculous
The Pleaser so hungrily seeks approval, he'll happily work longer hours, take on extra tasks that aren't part of his job description, never take vacations, never ask for a raise in salary, etc. He secretly wants his contributions to be noticed and rewarded--but fear keeps him from asking for any compensation.


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## letmebeme (Feb 23, 2012)

yellowsubmarine said:


> Me too! I see my counselor this Friday. I feel better now that I can find a somewhat reasonable explanation for what I have been experiencing all along.
> 
> Makes me wonder if I had known any of this stuff before if I could have done something about it... wait a second... that's me trying to fix things again :scratchhead:
> 
> What I find interesting in the articles is that they basically say to the other person (non-BPD) to move on, not necessarily hints on how to help alleviate the situation. I wonder if this is for a reason...


Because these people with a ton of effort in counselling will still create havoc in our lives. The articles basically are telling us that we're lucky for the enlightenment and to run like hell.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

yellowsubmarine said:


> Me too! I see my counselor this Friday. I feel better now that I can find a somewhat reasonable explanation for what I have been experiencing all along.
> 
> Makes me wonder if I had known any of this stuff before if I could have done something about it... wait a second... that's me trying to fix things again :scratchhead:
> 
> What I find interesting in the articles is that they basically say to the other person (non-BPD) to move on, not necessarily hints on how to help alleviate the situation. I wonder if this is for a reason...


Am back from my therapist appointment. We talked a lot about what I printed out, and I told her that I finally think I've 'learned' enough about STBXH. This was the puzzle piece that finally fit. Now I'm going to learn about my past, and how it shaped me and primed me for this relationship, AND work on it so that THIS NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN!! She said she can see a difference in me today between my new med and this information -- it's hard to describe, but I'm standing taller and more confidently, she said. 

I really feel like I'm almost totally over (never say never) trying to work things out. He's always sought out women who are troubled and in need of fixing themselves, myself obviously included. As I've been working on my issues, and continue to do so, I expect I'll be less attractive to him. Confidence and the ability to love myself and trust my feelings and judgements go against what a waif BPD is looking for. It's kind of sad, considering our history. I really did love him, and he is my son's father, but like the one line that article said, for the waif "it's simpler to circle round the drain than to climb out of the sink," and I'm desperately trying to climb out of the sink.


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## nomoretogive (Oct 29, 2011)

yellowsubmarine said:


> So true! I thought I was the one going crazy. Every single time that I accomplished something in my life, there was total lack of emotion or support. He would purposefully make me upset before job interviews. He never provided emotional support. He always stood on the sidelines watching everything unfold. *What I think did him in was that he was not able to control me anymore - I was not there to cater to his "needs." *
> 
> He's lied before, but I thought it was harmless (i.e. you look great in that dress!), until I learned of more serious events. I just couldn't believe that my own husband would without certain information for years from me.
> 
> ...


OMG, the part that I bolded is SO TRUE!! Once they realize that we are onto them and their games and they have lost that element of control, it drives them crazy!! I can definitely say that once my eyes were opened, through counseling and reading articles that Uptown posted here and others online, and I quit engaging in the "game" he got worse because the tables were turned and his same old shet wasn't working anymore. He became more defiant, more difficult, more sneaky, as if he was going to "show me." When that wasn't working, he just started walking out the door, disappearing for weeks on end, refusing to take my calls, check on the kids, et cetera. He has never acknowledged what he did was wrong; in fact, he refers to his periods of abandonment as, "When I was gone for a couple of weeks," as though he was on a business trip. Seriously? As if the kids and I don't know what really happened? Either he thinks we are truly stupid, or he is dumber than I give him credit for. 

I have tried and tried to understand what goes on in his head, but the deeper I get into this relationship, the more I understand why those in the know say to just walk. I don't think there is ever the possibility of having a normal relationship with these folks. You can't reason with the unreasonable; you can't trust compulsive liars; and you can't have a relationship with someone who makes it their life work to "get back at you" and play these silly games. 

I'm getting closer by the day to being able to leave mine, and I can't wait...if for so other reason than to regain my sanity...and I'm not the crazy one!!!


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## nomoretogive (Oct 29, 2011)

angelpixie said:


> Am back from my therapist appointment. We talked a lot about what I printed out, and I told her that I finally think I've 'learned' enough about STBXH. This was the puzzle piece that finally fit. Now I'm going to learn about my past, and how it shaped me and primed me for this relationship, AND work on it so that THIS NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN!! She said she can see a difference in me today between my new med and this information -- it's hard to describe, but I'm standing taller and more confidently, she said.
> 
> I really feel like I'm almost totally over (never say never) trying to work things out. He's always sought out women who are troubled and in need of fixing themselves, myself obviously included. As I've been working on my issues, and continue to do so, I expect I'll be less attractive to him. Confidence and the ability to love myself and trust my feelings and judgements go against what a waif BPD is looking for. It's kind of sad, considering our history. I really did love him, and he is my son's father, but like the one line that article said, for the waif "it's simpler to circle round the drain than to climb out of the sink," and I'm desperately trying to climb out of the sink.


Definitely read the book I talked about above, Women Who Love Too Much: When You Keep Hoping and Wishing He'd Change. While it isn't specific to being married to someone with BPD, it is awesome in covering why we're attracted to men with "issues." I have been saying all along that my H was the one with the problem...never realizing that I had a hand in choosing him just as much as he chose me and that despite years of therapy, I still had a long way to go in fixing my issues to stop the madness. 

There were so many things from my childhood that I had forgotten about that came up in the book, and I was amazed at how those things affected who I chose in a mate. Specifically, I'm a "fixer" and am always attracted to potential. Look where that got me  Anyway, the book does a really good job of nailing down why WE choose to start and stay in these relationships that are obviously unhealthy, and has a recovery plan for getting better and/or getting out. I have to tell you that as awesome as my therapist is, I got more out of that book than I did a year's worth of therapy. 

The other two books I've read recently are the Peter Pan Syndrome and the Wendy Dilemma. Again, they nailed so many things that were going on in my relationship, and the Wendy Dilemma described me to a T. 

It was after reading the first book and putting into practice some of the recovery techniques that I got my strength back, and it feels awesome. Even in a message board post you sound better and stronger already!! It feels good, doesn't it?


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

nomoretogive said:


> There were so many things from my childhood that I had forgotten about that came up in the book, and I was amazed at how those things affected who I chose in a mate. Specifically, I'm a "fixer" and am always attracted to potential. Look where that got me
> 
> 
> Even in a message board post you sound better and stronger already!! It feels good, doesn't it?


Oh yeah on the 'potential' part!! And yes, difficult as it is to believe, this does feel good.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Your points are well taken, 3leafclover. In fact, one of the reasons I stayed longer than I know (now) that I should have was precisely *because* I looked at mental illness as an _illness_, not unlike diabetes or cancer. I wouldn't leave my H because of those, why leave because of MI?

But I had to learn that just as in diabetes, or cancer, or heart disease, the patient and the patient alone has the final decision to take care of his/her health problem. When s(he) is told that actions are hurting a loved one, it is his/her choice to either continue that behavior or to seek help, MI or not. If the patient is so sick as to be incapable of making that choice, they shouldn't be able to also function well at work, or with friends, or other things. That's seldom how it actually is. 

A lot of the time, MI patients have a very hurtful relationship with an SO/parent/child who did not abuse them. Why should the MI patient receive special consideration that we do not give the MI patient's original abuser? And, there are also people who were abused as children who do not turn into abusers, or develop personality disorders. The original disorder is *not* a choice, but getting treatment or not *is* a choice. And abuse is abuse and hurts just as much no matter who does it.


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## nomoretogive (Oct 29, 2011)

Let me apologize if I came off as offensive, because I do tend to get tunnel vision and focus only on the negative, destructive traits, and then lump everyone together. That's my own ignorance at work, and I apologize. Just remember that most of us posting aren't trying to be offensive and generalize; we're just speaking through our own lens right now of hurt and pain and confusion. 

However, I have to agree with AP. Like she, I have stayed far longer than most would have simply because it was a mental illness, not something that he was unlucky enough to end up with -- aka cancer, heart disease -- but something that was done TO him that caused this. I luckily haven't had to deal with a spouse who has cancer or other disease, but I have had so much compassion for my H despite his MI and have tried everything I can to help him/support him while at the same time trying to save my own sanity and protecting my kids. 

Edited to add: What I meant to say before I got too far ahead of myself is that if he had cancer or heart disease, there is very little choice he has in the matter of "fixing" it. It just is, and sometimes the outcome cannot be changed no matter what the person does. And maybe BPD is like that, too. But I think when it comes to mental illness and behavior, a lot of times a person DOES have the option of mitigating their illness and learning how to deal with it/function with it via therapy, self-reflection, forgiveness, without being abusive. They certainly have a much higher chance of succeeding IF THEY DO THE RECOVERY WORK than someone who is trying to cure themselves of cancer. 

What it comes down to for me as I finalize preparations to end this marriage after 15 years together is that I can't want him to get better more than he does anymore. It's too destructive for MY sanity. I am not so naive to think I alone can cure him by wanting it enough, but I have simply asked him to be open to working on the most destructive traits that are affecting our marriage, and he doesn't want to do the work. Like I said in an earlier post, I've stayed much longer than I should have simply because the "potential" was there for him to be a better man -- I've seen glimpses of it and love those times. I can't bet the farm on potential any longer, and I can no longer suffer through 350 days of misery waiting for the crumbs of love he throws my way on the other days. The good times no longer outweigh the bad. 

Having done my own recovery work after an extremely abusive childhood, I know how hard it is to travel back in time and re-experience all of that hurt and pain and, more importantly, to get to a point where I LET IT GO so that I can function in my adult life. I get it. But I knew that my behaviors and expectations were destructive and knew that they had to change if I wanted to experience success not only in my marriage but in all of my adult relationships. I can't make him want to do the work, but I can choose to no longer enable and support it to the detriment of my own mental health. 

I love my husband and have a lot invested in this relationship, and it pains me to no end that I don't see another alternative but to walk away. But I'm also cognizant that I only get one shot at this ride of life and I can't justify spending the rest of it with someone who is so mired in misery and so reluctant to change that by staying I am choosing my own misery every day.

At the end of the day, "I" didn't do this to him and I'm sick and tired of paying the price as though I did. Abuse is abuse, and regardless of the circumstances behind it, I don't know of anyone who says that you should stay and take it. All abusers have a reason -- aka excuse -- for why they treat people the way they do. They could just as easily choose NOT to be abusive, but don't want to. It's easier to keep playing out a dynamic that is familiar to them, and they don't care who gets hurt in the process. As a child, I was brutally beaten, frequently, often ending up in the hospital for my injuries. As an adult, I have made the choice NOT to replay what I learned as "normal" in my childhood, have never laid a finger on my kids and wouldn't dream of doing it. 

So I agree, sometimes these threads come off as though we're ready to hang someone with BPD at the stake and have lost all compassion for them and tend to portray them as "evil people." Please just realize that for many years we were silent, and by the time we get here, we're at the end of our rope, and that often comes through in our stories. 

I also had to sit here for a minute before I wrote and go through the exercise mentally of replacing PTSD for BPD and see how that changed my thought process. It was a good example, because I know two people personally -- family members -- who ARE suffering from PTSD after war experiences. One of them has sought help, does group therapy and IC, and journals to process things and try to cope with them and still thrive emotionally as best as they can. The other sits at home, wallows in his misery and is just downright hateful to everyone. 

In this instance, I have tons of compassion for the uncle that has chosen to live his life IN SPITE OF his MI, as hard as it may be, and still remain pleasant to be around; but I have ZERO compassion for the uncle that chooses to wake up and spend each day in misery and take everyone down with him. One will die surrounded by family who have tons of compassion for his life experience and love for him as a person; the other will die a lonely old man because he has chosen to alienate and abuse everyone because of his. 

What it comes down to is that we all have our issues in life, because none of us has had a perfect one. But when someone blatantly chooses to hold onto that experience so tightly that they cannot go through life without abusing everyone who tries to share it with them, compassion goes out the window. It simply becomes an issue of self-preservation.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks for understanding, 3leafclover. 

And, nomoretogive: you are seriously awesome.


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## JRT (Dec 19, 2014)

I am seeing a perspective that I have not yet seen about my problem from that of those with BPD on this and other sites. 

After the fact, I have come to see that my ex fiance was likely BDP by the research that I have done. ESPECIALLY by virtue of the way that she had broke up: while I was away on a business trip, and via text. There was no hint of anything wrong; it came entirely from out of the blue. We had a great relationship (I thought) and there was never any arguments or episodes to speak of. She had JUST moved into my house three weeks prior and we were in the process of planning our wedding. 

She sent a text while I was in a business meeting stating out of town that our relationship was over...that she moved out...and that I should never attempt to contact her. She blocked me from calling or texting her (and her son). She Unfreinded and blocked me on social media, sucessfully compelled her friends to do so and unfriended all of our joint friends. 

I called various family and friends that day as any normal person would do to try get to the bottom of things and this effort was greeted with a text that threatened to call the cops if I tried again. I gave her space for a couple of weeks and sent her an email from a little used account that she didn't know about to block, 'Lets talk, we are better than this'. This was responded to by a letter from an attorney friend threatening a restraining order against me. 

I sent a letter a few weeks back and it was returned to me unopened and refused (progress I thought as there was no summons that followed!!). This has been devastating for me since I believe her to be a quality person and I was very much looking forward to a life with this person - it was two great years for me. She had done this in the past but not nearly in the 'scorched earth' capacity that she did this time. It has caused a great deal of confusion and pain form myself and my daughter. 

My research identified her as an ACOA (adult child of alcoholic) but i eventually came across information regarding BPD and it seems like she might be described this way, at least as a 'waif' variety ESPECIALLY by virtue of the manner in which she broke up (do BPD's all do it this way??). 

Although when she has done this in the past, she has always returned, every so slowly and usually in a very predictable manner. This time, given how much time has elapsed since the episode, I have had little hope or signs that there was any possibility of salvation for this relationship or interest on her part (although her father tells me that she is currently seeing a therapist which I felt was a positive step for her). She has gone through great effort to distance herself from me and make contact almost impossible (she left no address either). But when I came across this site and read many of the associated forums my perspective and understanding of the episode changed a bit. 

Can any BP folks frame this into their perspective for me? Is it your opinion that she actually WANTS me to give up chase as many BP's have remarked? That having honored her boundaries and not contacted her that she might be feeling that I have already abandoned her just as she had feared in the first place? Tell me if even it is only speculation: what is going on whit her? Is she also devastated OR, having painted me black, does she have as much regard for me and memory as something she just threw into the trash? 

I appreciate any and all advice and thoughts.....


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

After being married to a BP dissordered for a little more than 20 years. Currently 3 years into a protracted divorce from her because she can never decide what she really wants. I want a divorce, after her many affairs, and financial disasters. 

Do yourself a favor. You have an easy out. Your not married to her. She left you. She threatened you with a restraining order. 

Forget her. Move on. Your life will be much better without her. Praise God for being let off the hook so easily. Quite seriously. Run from her like your life, and future children depended on it.


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## Jessicav1314 (Jan 12, 2018)

Going more off of your "quiet bpd", which is what my ex husband is....I found through reading studies as well as personal experience that the cause of his bpd to show in a passive aggressive quiet form is because he was raised by a 16 year old narcissistic/bpd mother. His father was a drug addict and left when he was 5. His mom was only 16 when she had him, and worked two jobs from the time he was 2 weeks old. So his father abandoned him, his mom was never around physically and when she was, the world revolved around her and her needs, she gave no time or emotions to nurture her child. His opinions, thoughts, interests, were all shot down by her if she didn't like them. He was not allowed to be himself or even feel certain ways. Not only that, she would belittle him afterwards. For example, my ex always had a fascination with aliens and sci fi. His mother would tell him that aliens don't exist, and that he was stupid to think that way. He explained it to me once that he felt he "was only taken care of, he wasn't raised". I do believe that underneath his mental disorder that my ex has a good heart. But having a sweet heart coupled with the way he was raised has created the quiet bpd which is horribly devestating because it wasn't his fault. 
The bad reputation of people with bpd is awful. If you ever want to learn something about bpd, learn this.....that at some point in either their childhood or adolescence, people who have bpd, suffered something that was completely out of their control (loss of parent, emotional neglect, etc) and being that our brains are still developing and wiring all of our emotions to the proper places, what happens is that their brain then becomes wired to associate love with loss, or abandonment, or fear, or intense agony. This happens without them even knowing it's happening....it's all subconsciously, which is why I feel that many bpd's do not believe anything is wrong with them. 
It was devastating to watch my ex husbands greatest fears come true by his own doing and him never even realize that he had the power in his hands to have everything we dreamed of. I tried to make him watch the movie The Secret but he refused to for reasons I'll never know. I finally had to walk away when I woke up and realized that I was the only one fighting for him to get better and for our relationship to be healthy. He did nothing to fix it, even when he knew what to do, I don't think I'll ever understand why.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Jessicav1314 said:


> Going more off of your "quiet bpd", which is what my ex husband is....I found through reading studies as well as personal experience that the cause of his bpd to show in a passive aggressive quiet form is because he was raised by a 16 year old narcissistic/bpd mother. His father was a drug addict and left when he was 5. His mom was only 16 when she had him, and worked two jobs from the time he was 2 weeks old. So his father abandoned him, his mom was never around physically and when she was, the world revolved around her and her needs, she gave no time or emotions to nurture her child. His opinions, thoughts, interests, were all shot down by her if she didn't like them. He was not allowed to be himself or even feel certain ways. Not only that, she would belittle him afterwards. For example, my ex always had a fascination with aliens and sci fi. His mother would tell him that aliens don't exist, and that he was stupid to think that way. He explained it to me once that he felt he "was only taken care of, he wasn't raised". I do believe that underneath his mental disorder that my ex has a good heart. But having a sweet heart coupled with the way he was raised has created the quiet bpd which is horribly devestating because it wasn't his fault.
> The bad reputation of people with bpd is awful. If you ever want to learn something about bpd, learn this.....that at some point in either their childhood or adolescence, people who have bpd, suffered something that was completely out of their control (loss of parent, emotional neglect, etc) and being that our brains are still developing and wiring all of our emotions to the proper places, what happens is that their brain then becomes wired to associate love with loss, or abandonment, or fear, or intense agony. This happens without them even knowing it's happening....it's all subconsciously, which is why I feel that many bpd's do not believe anything is wrong with them.
> It was devastating to watch my ex husbands greatest fears come true by his own doing and him never even realize that he had the power in his hands to have everything we dreamed of. I tried to make him watch the movie The Secret but he refused to for reasons I'll never know. I finally had to walk away when I woke up and realized that I was the only one fighting for him to get better and for our relationship to be healthy. He did nothing to fix it, even when he knew what to do, I don't think I'll ever understand why.


My SIL has very strong traits of BPD though I wouldn't necessarily describe her as quiet, she morphs into all the different 'types' depending on the situation.

When I first met her the first thing that I noticed, and that used to make me feel very uncomfortable, was the way her mother interacted with her. Being a tomboy she would make sarcastic remarks about her wearing 'fellas clothes'. She once pulled me into the the room and said 'this is what a woman should dress like' (because I was wearing a skirt). I have heard to say 'Everything was alright until you where born'. I have heard her say 'your sister is the good looking one'. She also used to mock her if she didn't understand something and ask questions 'You don't even know that. You better go look it up [snigger]'. She would (and still does) reference her weight, particularly when food was being served. She would also discourage her from having friends by convincing her that they were all being mean or not good for her [when nothing was actually happening]. She basically created an adult who felt unlovable and unlikable. If her own mother doesn't like her then why would anyone else?

When she finally left home and got married her mother decided she was now going to be 'golden child' and flipped the disparaging comments to butter wouldn't melt and practically perfect in every way. She clings onto her as though her life depends upon it. This devaluation and then 100% adoration has instilled some narcissistic traits in her (imo).

The point is - this woman has made my life a living hell - but I can still feel a lot of compassion for her, from safe distance because I have seen how personality disorders are instilled into a child. It is hard to feel that compassion when you are in the eye of the storm or being lashed out at.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Jessica, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm sorry to hear that your exH exhibits strong BPD traits -- as does my exW.



Jessicav1314 said:


> I do believe that underneath his mental disorder that my ex has a good heart. But having a sweet heart coupled with the way he was raised has created the quiet bpd which is horribly devastating because it wasn't his fault.


My experience is that the vast majority of BPDers are good and caring people. As long as you don't draw close and try to become a long-term friend, you likely will never trigger their great fears of abandonment and engulfment. A BPDer's problem, then, is not being bad but rather emotionally unstable. Moreover, because BPD is believed to be firmly entrenched by age five, no BPDer is at fault for developing this condition.

I mention this only to explain why "having a good heart" and not being at fault cannot explain how your exH became a quiet BPDer instead of a regular BPDer. In note #15 above, I speculate as to what may cause a small share of BPDers to become "quiet" or "waifs." But, as far as I know, nobody knows for sure. Indeed, the cause of BPD itself has not yet been proven. 



> He did nothing to fix it, even when he knew what to do, I don't think I'll ever understand why.


My understanding is that, if your exH is a full-blown BPDer, he cannot properly regulate his own emotions. The result is that he frequently experiences emotions so intense that he is absolutely convinced that those feelings MUST accurately reflect reality. In that way, the intense feelings distort and color his perceptions of your intentions and motivations (a situation that you know well because this distortion occurs to all of us whenever we experience intense feelings). These thought distortions make it very difficult for a BPDer to "know what to do." 

On top of that problem, a BPDer always finds himself in a no-win predicament. This occurs because his two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at the opposite ends of the _very same_ spectrum. This means he is always in a lose/lose situation because, as he backs away from one fear to avoid triggering it, he will start triggering the fear at the other end of that same spectrum.

Hence, as he moves close to you to satisfy his need for intimacy, he will start triggering his engulfment fear, making him feel like he's being suffocated and controlled by you. Yet, when he pushes you away to give himself breathing space, he will find that he will start triggering his abandonment fear. Sadly, there is no midpoints solution (between "too close" and "too far away") where he can safely stand to avoid triggering the two fears. I know because, with my BPDer exW, I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I see this.....

These things...

As handles, as hooks to hang characterizations, traits, qualities in other people.
Qualities that we do not like, are not comfortable with.

Giving us a reason not to like someone. 
A reason to pigeon hole them into some crazy crater.
Some acne scar.

I see this.....

As dangerous thinking...
MeThinks.

Be careful, be thoughtful.

Words are dangerous.
Dangerous when they become labels.
An Albatross around some other persons neck.

Some are fitting, some are true.
Some are loosely bandied about.

Just Sayin'


SunCMars-


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

peacem said:


> My SIL has very strong traits of BPD though I wouldn't necessarily describe her as quiet, she morphs into all the different 'types' depending on the situation.
> 
> When I first met her the first thing that I noticed, and that used to make me feel very uncomfortable, was the way her mother interacted with her. Being a tomboy she would make sarcastic remarks about her wearing 'fellas clothes'. She once pulled me into the the room and said 'this is what a woman should dress like' (because I was wearing a skirt). I have heard to say 'Everything was alright until you where born'. I have heard her say 'your sister is the good looking one'. She also used to mock her if she didn't understand something and ask questions 'You don't even know that. You better go look it up [snigger]'. She would (and still does) reference her weight, particularly when food was being served. She would also discourage her from having friends by convincing her that they were all being mean or not good for her [when nothing was actually happening]. She basically created an adult who felt unlovable and unlikable. If her own mother doesn't like her then why would anyone else?
> 
> ...


A lot of Wisdom here....Hear?


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## Louise McCann (Jul 23, 2017)

Diagnosed borderline here... I wouldn't say we all break up like that. In fact, the other borderlines I know (most of my good friends exhibit strong BPD traits) including myself find it difficult to break ties. 

We wreck havoc and can stir the biggest arguments when we are emotionally distressed, but once we calm down, we act like everything is normal and tend to apologise. My other BPD friends are in fact very forgiving too. 

As with all my ex-boyfriends, I stayed friends with them and still think fondly of them. My STBX husband was the one who dumped me and I could not get over him for 7 months and tried to maintain good contact even after he abandoned our child and cut me out of his life. I have no idea where he is and what he is doing now, but I still care for him despite being very hurt and resentful. I think it stems from our black-and-white thinking and how I saw him as the perfect husband despite his cold departure and being a deadbeat dad. My memories of him were still mostly good so it is hard for me to shake off the warm feelings I bore towards him.

So no, I disagree that BPDs are able to walk away without any emotional ties. For my case, it couldn't be farther from the truth. If I could have it my way, I would love to be friends and on good terms with everyone, my enemies included.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Louise McCann said:


> Diagnosed borderline here... I wouldn't say we all break up like that. In fact, the other borderlines I know (most of my good friends exhibit strong BPD traits) including myself find it difficult to break ties.
> 
> We wreck havoc and can stir the biggest arguments when we are emotionally distressed, but once we calm down, we act like everything is normal and tend to apologise. My other BPD friends are in fact very forgiving too.
> 
> ...


If you loved yourself sufficiently, do you think that would still be the case?


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