# New info on grooming



## Cletus

So, ladies - what do you think of this:

A new survey shows most women groom their pubic hair. Should we be concerned?

Six out of seven of you do some grooming, and somewhere around one in five of you are opting to go clean-shaven.

I was surprised. I guess it's just a sign of my advancing years. It seems we're part of the problem, too - 
"About 21 percent of women in this new study said they groomed their pubic hair because their partner prefers it that way, and more than 31 percent said they do it because it makes their vagina look “nicer.” This study and others have found that most women groom their pubic hair before sex. And women in this survey were less likely to groom their pubic hair if their partners did not prefer it groomed, or if their partners did not landscape their own pubes."

So most of you seem to be doing it for some rather dubious reasons, unless getting your man to go down on you more often is important.

"But when women feel compelled to beg pardon from their doctors for the very existence of their bodies, they’ve most likely learned that their genitals are gross and their unaltered bodies are unacceptable for public view."

And in a related note, You don?t need to hide your camel toe to feel empowered | Fusion


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## jld

From the article:

_"In reality, *pubic hair prevents infections and irritation, providing a soft protective barrier around the vaginal opening and the delicate skin in and around the vulva*. Since most people who can regularly remove their pubic hair probably also have access to bathing facilities, they might not lose much hygienic benefit by getting rid of it. But shaving and waxing one of the body’s most sensitive areas can lead to complications like burns, abrasions, folliculitis, and infections. A 2012 study found that 3 percent of emergency-room patients presenting with trauma to the genital area had sustained their injuries through pubic hair grooming."_


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## jld

The summary, from the last line of the article:

_"It’s one more symptom of a diseased culture of misogyny, laid bare by the politics of the pube."_


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## arbitrator

*I have always said "to each their own!" 

But my own personal preference, primarily for my performance of oral activity on her, is for my lady to either be extremely well-landscaped or completely shaven!

Conversely, I strongly feel that I should adhere to her wishes regarding my own grooming habits, as she should have the ultimate say in how she would like "her own personal playground" on me maintained!

Inasfar as undies that make one look like Ken or Barbie, that is so beyond vain!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyT

Festivus said:


> So most of you seem to be doing it for some rather dubious reasons, unless getting your man to go down on you more often is important.


Pleasing your man, or making oral sex (as well as PIV) more appealing are not dubious reasons for shaving..... if that is true, then why are we shaving legs and armpits? And apologizing if we don't???

It's a silly debate. Who cares how someone ELSE takes care of their pubes????


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## samyeagar

jld said:


> The summary, from the last line of the article:
> 
> _"It’s one more symptom of a diseased culture of misogyny, laid bare by the politics of the pube."_


Which clearly lays out the agenda of this opinion piece.


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## larry.gray

Too much pubic hair is an impediment to quality cunnilingus. If a woman is with a guy who knows how to do it well and does it often, she will keep it shorter regardless of her partners astetic opinion.

Shaved vs. short is only an appearance thing. The labia minora are hair free. What counts is the ability to get tounge to skin contact without a bunch of hair in the way. Trimmed down is sufficient.


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## 225985

Another man-hating article, or article from a man-hating writer. We seem to have a few of those posted here lately. 

BTW, who reads Slate. Ugh.


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## MrsAldi

blueinbr said:


> Another man-hating article, or article from a man-hating writer. We seem to have a few of those posted here lately.
> 
> BTW, who reads Slate. Ugh.


I tend to agree Blue, but I think the author tends to believe that female grooming comes from porn trends. 
Maybe?? If porn embraced the 1970s look again (bushy lady garden!)
Do you think that men would like it? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Emerging Buddhist

MrsAldi said:


> I tend to agree Blue, but I think the author tends to believe that female grooming comes from porn trends.
> Maybe?? If porn embraced the 1970s look again (bushy lady garden!)
> Do you think that men would like it?


It would at least make it more enticing! 

But then again... I am a believer in naturalism. :grin2:


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## Middle of Everything

Emerging Buddhist said:


> It would at least make it more enticing!
> 
> But then again... I am a believer in naturalism. :grin2:


Agreed.

A lady can trim the length a little around the labia if need be(my wife really doesnt need to much as I call her the hairless wonder. Very little natural hair). But I think a nice bush above is sexy as hell.


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## 225985

MrsAldi said:


> I tend to agree Blue, but I think the author tends to believe that female grooming comes from porn trends.
> Maybe?? If porn embraced the 1970s look again (bushy lady garden!)
> Do you think that men would like it?
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


Funny. I was thinking the same thing. 1970's :smile2:


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## katiecrna

I think that there is a problem when the women Feels like she HAS to always be without hair down there. For one... When you have, and the hair starts to grow back and it's stubbly... Shaving when it's like this hurts! I think it's a self esteem issue when you won't let your partner see you with hair down there, it's unnatural, time consuming and not good for your skin. My friend won't let her husband see her down there unless she's fully shaved. He gets mad Bc she will refuse sex until It's taken care of and he says he couldn't care less if there's some hair there he just wants sex. For me... I will shave or wax, and wait for it to grow in a little before I do it again. So my husband sees me with some hair. It's still no where near a bush. 

I admire the women that wear the full bush! We all shouldn't be ashamed of our bodies. My husband shaves his casually so I shave mine casually. We're not crazy about it to the point that we're bare all the time. That's a little crazy to me and I have a life and higher priorities than that.


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## Cletus

katiecrna said:


> I think that there is a problem when the women Feels like she HAS to always be without hair down there.


That was the entire point of the article, in fact the author spelled it out quite clearly in the text even if it was in (turns up nose) Slate (the original appearing in that Trailer Trash Rag the New York Times).

I sincerely doubt that the increase in grooming is being driven solely by some awakening among women as to the cunnilingus benefits. Especially when a women becomes apologetic to her OB-GYN, who we can presume isn't going down on her, for its lack.


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## EllisRedding

My W will shave (typically on a day she knows she is going to get some action) but then she will let it grow back a little before shaving again. One t hing I did notice, after I read that book "She Comes First" my W did seem to keep things tidy down there more often, hmmm....


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## Cletus

EllisRedding said:


> My W will shave (typically on a day she knows she is going to get some action) but then she will let it grow back a little before shaving again. One t hing I did notice, after I read that book "She Comes First" my W did seem to keep things tidy down there more often, hmmm....


Mine doesn't groom, but then she wouldn't let me near it with my face at gunpoint. I did some manscaping a few times, but was told in no uncertain terms to knock it off. Even modest trimming added too much to the prickly factor.


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## TX-SC

My wife trims it short but doesn't shave it. That's the way I like it. I'm not a fan of a huge bush or a completely shaved one. But, she seems to like it that way as well. So, it's not like she trims only for me. 

Her pubes are so soft and a beautiful gold color. I'd hate to not get to see them if she shaved completely!


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## Personal

Festivus said:


> I sincerely doubt that the increase in grooming is being driven solely by some awakening among women as to the cunnilingus benefits.


Perhaps some women are simply embracing more old fashioned (Graeco-Roman) traditions.


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## Cletus

Personal said:


> Perhaps some women are simply embracing more old fashioned (Graeco-Roman) traditions.


What, no holds below the waist?


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## jld

A recent study in _JAMA Dermatology _ said that this trend can be attributed to the influence of porn.


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## Cletus

jld said:


> A recent study in _JAMA Dermatology _ said that this trend can be attributed to the influence of porn.


Even if I agree 100%, I doubt they've shown causality.


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## samyeagar

jld said:


> A recent study in _JAMA Dermatology _ said that this trend can be attributed to the influence of porn.


The difficulty with demonstrating causation is that often times correlation can be demonstrated in both directions, the proverbial chicken or the egg, meaning...a strong case can be made for porn being influenced by the consumers as well. It can't be ignored that the trend in shaving in porn coincides with the internet explosion and the increased porn consumption by women.

From my own personal experience, I have intimately interacted with maybe 10 female pubic areas in my life, dating back to the 1980's, and even back then, every single one was heavily groomed from closely trimmed to completely bare, so for me, the idea of this type of grooming is the norm, and not some new trend.


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## sscygni

So I am new here, pardon the naivetee, but why are almost all the posters in the Ladies Lounge men? Isnt this supposed to be a forum for women's discussion?


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## larry.gray

The article ignores the fact that pubic lice are becoming extinct. Going bare isn't that common, but it is highly common among promiscuous folks. That fact has nearly eliminated pubic lice. Many university clinics haven't seen a case in a decade.


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## Cletus

sscygni said:


> So I am new here, pardon the naivetee, but why are almost all the posters in the Ladies Lounge men? Isnt this supposed to be a forum for women's discussion?



I'm sorry, did you get the permission of a man before you made this comment? :smile2:

The forum is about women's issues, but is not gender restrictive. You are free to post in the Man Cave as well (assuming you're a woman)


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## EllisRedding

sscygni said:


> So I am new here, pardon the naivetee, but why are almost all the posters in the Ladies Lounge men? Isnt this supposed to be a forum for women's discussion?


Yes and no. It is open to both genders, no different than the Men's clubhouse which gets frequented by women. Any time a suggestion has been made that the Lounge and Clubhouse should be exclusive, it is usually met with groans from some users.

Also, as @Festivus mentioned, it is about discussing gender specific issues. If I had a gender specific issue/question about my W, the Lounge would make the most sense to post.


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## Cletus

larry.gray said:


> The article ignores the fact that pubic lice are becoming extinct. Going bare isn't that common, but it is highly common among promiscuous folks. That fact has nearly eliminated pubic lice. Many university clinics haven't seen a case in a decade.


The underlying NYT article does mention this. But it also mentions that 3% of emergency room visits for genital accidents are the result of grooming too. So it's a little bit of ying and yang.

I want to reiterate that most women are self-reporting as doing it for hygiene. But with the possible exception of pubic lice, medical practice considers it less hygienic to groom or to shave. Which implies directly that most women are doing it for the wrong reason.


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## samyeagar

sscygni said:


> So I am new here, pardon the naivetee, but why are almost all the posters in the Ladies Lounge men? Isnt this supposed to be a forum for women's discussion?


Many women post in the Men's Clubhouse. We are for the most part a pretty enlightened lot here on TAM, and recognize the value of input from both men and women, even on things that may pertain primarily to the opposite gender.


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## Personal

sscygni said:


> So I am new here, pardon the naivetee, but why are almost all the posters in the Ladies Lounge men? Isnt this supposed to be a forum for women's discussion?


**WARNING* Women Avoid This Thread*

Plenty of women post in the The Men's Clubhouse...


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## TX-SC

sscygni said:


> So I am new here, pardon the naivetee, but why are almost all the posters in the Ladies Lounge men? Isnt this supposed to be a forum for women's discussion?


I've never thought about it in that way. I've always seen it as more of a place to post questions relating to women. My wife does not post on TAM, so I sometimes answer regarding what she does, like in this thread.


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## Anon Pink

blueinbr said:


> Another man-hating article, or article from a man-hating writer. We seem to have a few of those posted here lately.
> 
> BTW, who reads Slate. Ugh.


I wouldn't call the article man hating, I'd call it poorly researched and poorly written. An opinion piece disguised as journalism that I hope people read with their critical eye.

I'm 53 and have been grooming my pubes since I got them. Shaving the bikini area was a must back in the late 70's early 80's when bathing suits were French cut. Who the hell wants to see pubes sticking out of someone's bathing suit?

If a woman wants to go bare, have some hair, or full bush it is her decision and I do not for one second believe men or porn have anything to do with her preference. 

I shave my legs because I like a nice smooth feel. I shave my pits because I think arm pit hair is gross on men and women. I sometimes shave my pubes because I like it smooth, and it's more sensitive. Sometimes I grow it all out just for something different. My husband has no preference.

It's my body and my hair and I decide what I will do with it. Not men, not porn, and not some au natural hairy pitted woman who wants everyone else to look like she does.


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## jb02157

This whole thing makes no sense. Women are saying that they shave because their men want it that way, but at the same time are so ready to fight for doing what they want with their bodies. The inconsistencies here are at so many levels I'm not even going to try to understand it.


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## EllisRedding

My W has never really watched porn so that rules out porn as the reason why she shaves. My W would fall more in line with what @Anon Pink posted.


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## Cletus

Anon Pink said:


> I wouldn't call the article man hating, I'd call it poorly researched and poorly written. An opinion piece disguised as journalism that I hope people read with their critical eye.


I would say the article stated exactly what you just said, only using more words and less direct language.


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## samyeagar

jb02157 said:


> This whole thing makes no sense. Women are saying that they shave because their men want it that way, but at the same time are so ready to fight for doing what they want with their bodies. The inconsistencies here are at so many levels I'm not even going to try to understand it.


Opinion pieces such as this are often underlined with an idea, followed by an inability to accept that others may not share the same idea of their own volition, therefore, there must be some, often negative, outside influence, and that if only that influence were removed, then they would finally agree with the idea.

These types of things are often written from a position of insecurity where the writer does not have any inherent confidence in their own position as it stands on it's own, and needs external support and validation to have any belief in what they are saying.


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## happy as a clam

Shaving because of porn???

Hardly. I shave because I like to. And I sweat. A lot. Especially after I work out. And I can't stand the thought of a sweaty bush!

:rofl: :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild jade

I think it is sad how women are constantly shamed about their natural bodies to the point that we cannot go outside without applying a ton of toxic chemicals to our skin, or worse, injecting paralytics right into our faces, removing every stray body hair, sucking fat from one location and injecting it into another, and on and on and on.

Sure, it is up to women to decide if they wish to conform to all of this and to what degree. Personal choice and all.

Personally, I'm tempted to just tattoo Mattel onto my ass.


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## happy as a clam

wild jade said:


> I think it is sad how women are constantly shamed about their natural bodies to the point that we cannot go outside without applying a ton of toxic chemicals to our skin, or worse, injecting paralytics right into our faces, removing every stray body hair, sucking fat from one location and injecting it into another, and on and on and on.
> 
> Sure, it is up to women to decide if they wish to conform to all of his and to what degree. Personal choice and all.
> 
> Personally, I'm tempted to just tattoo Mattel onto my ass.


Sorry, but I completely disagree. I don't feel shamed into anything you listed. I wear makeup because it makes me feel pretty. I wear lotion because it makes my skin feel soft. I shave because I like the feel of smooth, hairless skin.

Can't speak to the injections and liposuction you mention (never had it) but who are we to judge someone who wants to remove excess skin or bat wings after a major weight loss? No different than having breast reconstruction after a mastectomy and no one considers that to be vain.

I certainly don't feel like I have "Mattel" stamped on my a$$. I look good because I work d*mn hard at it. For ME. Not to conform to any arbitrary standards.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus

wild jade said:


> Personally, I'm tempted to just tattoo Mattel onto my ass.


Does it not then follow that you should look like a Ken doll when you do? 

As for creams over every square inch of exposed skin, this balding overly white Caucasian male doesn't leave the basement without a thick coating this time of year.


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## 225985

God, I know way too much about some of the posters here. Now when I see their name, I immediately trigger to visions of either 70's porn or 10's porn. YKWIM. 

I need the eye bleach, maybe brain bleach.


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## wild jade

happy as a clam said:


> Sorry, but I completely disagree. I don't feel shamed into anything you listed. I wear makeup because it makes me feel pretty. I wear lotion because it makes my skin feel soft. I shave because I like the feel of smooth, hairless skin.
> 
> Can't speak to the injections and liposuction you mention (never had it) but who are we to judge someone who wants to remove excess skin or bat wings after a major weight loss? No different than having breast reconstruction after a mastectomy and no one considers that to be vain.
> 
> I certainly don't feel like I have "Mattel" stamped on my a$$. I look good because I work d*mn hard at it. For ME. Not to conform to any arbitrary standards.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, of course you feel prettier. That's the point. I'd bet my bottom dollar that you are prettier in the eyes of almost everyone.

And you would feel ugly if you had disgusting armpit hair or gross sweaty pubes. Or the bags under your eyes were showing (not that you have them, just an example).

Everyone knows how gross and unappealing the natural female body is. It's no secret. So we beautify, make ourselves the very best we can be. And are rewarded for our efforts. By acceptance instead of ridicule.


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## wild jade

Festivus said:


> Does it not then follow that you should look like a Ken doll when you do?
> 
> As for creams over every square inch of exposed skin, this balding overly white Caucasian male doesn't leave the basement without a thick coating this time of year.


Makeup is better than it used to be. It used to be filled with lead, arsenic, and other very toxic heavy metals. Now it's a bunch of unpronounceable chemicals, but still, some of which are known cancer causes.

All to look pretty. At least sunscreen protects you from something specially harmful. Although yes, you need to be very careful about which products you buy, as some are quite grim.

And no, as a woman, I would not look like a Ken doll. I'd look like a Jade doll.


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## SunnyT

Festivus said:


> Which implies directly that most women are doing it for the wrong reason.


LOL.... there doesn't NEED to be a reason. Women shave their armpits, not for health reasons....just for aesthetics. Same with their legs. Are we wrong for shaving our legs and pits too? 

And emergency room visits? Really? I am not doubting that they happen, but shaving accidents.... sheesh. 

And not "letting my husband see" while hair is growing??? #1...shave it instead of denying him. #2...how do you HIDE it? Do grown, married couples not get naked (or get dressed) in front of each other??? #3...it's not a hassle to shave, not any more than leg shaving anyway. Whenever you shave your legs, you just keep on going.


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## samyeagar

happy as a clam said:


> Nope, still disagree. I don't do it to "look" pretty. Go back and read my post. I do it because I "feel" pretty. And I feel good.
> 
> Big difference. I don't do it for anyone but me. My SO appreciates my efforts, but I do it for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And I'll play devils advocate and go where some might go, though I disagree with this line of thinking...

Would you still feel pretty, good about yourself if makeup, shaving, etc was not the societal standard of prettiness?

I disagree with that because, as much as people like to deny it, often in an attempt to appear to be more enlightened, external validation, and the need for it is very real, and there is no getting around it. As social creatures, we need others to accept us, to like us, to be attracted to us. Certainly we don't want or need for everyone to do so, but we do need at least a few people to do so. It is also a fact that we can not control how another feels, or acts, so we do things that we can control in an attempt to appeal to others, and we also tend to seek out those that are likely to be responsive to the things that make us feel, well, pretty.


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## Absurdist

I think I'll let Billy Joel do all the talking for me.


_I said I love you and that's forever
And this I promise from the heart
I could not love you any better
I love you just the way you are_


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## happy as a clam

samyeagar said:


> And I'll play devils advocate and go where some might go, though I disagree with this line of thinking...
> 
> Would you still feel pretty, good about yourself if makeup, shaving, etc was not the societal standard of prettiness?


Who knows? I'm sure we're all influenced to some degree by the society we're raised in.

But I can tell you... I like the FEEL of non-hairy legs, smooth skin, and the thought of a B.O.-smelling pube area (hair traps the sweat/bacteria that causes B.O.) is pretty darn gross. So honestly, I don't really care what other women do or what men prefer. Once again, I do it for me.

And I like makeup because I like playing with colors. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus

SunnyT said:


> LOL.... there doesn't NEED to be a reason. Women shave their armpits, not for health reasons....just for aesthetics. Same with their legs. Are we wrong for shaving our legs and pits too?


If you are shaving for hygienic reasons, as the majority of women state, I think I'm in the clear when I say that you are shaving for the wrong reasons. Because, in fact, your activity is counterproductive to your stated goal. There's no value judgment here - just a conclusion from a false premise.


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## Mr. Nail

jld said:


> From the article:
> A 2012 study found that *3* percent of emergency-room patients presenting with trauma to the genital area had sustained their injuries through pubic hair grooming."[/i]


And How many of the other 97 percent were knee and foot inflicted after mentioning pubic grooming?

Sorry, I'm having a lot of trouble taking this seriously. Mrs Nail religiously shaves her Arm pits because "it keeps the smell down". But She has never so much as Trimmed the pubic area. I guess she thinks the smell down there is a plus.


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## samyeagar

happy as a clam said:


> Who knows? I'm sure we're all influenced to some degree by the society we're raised in.
> 
> But I can tell you... I like the FEEL of non-hairy legs, smooth skin, and the thought of a B.O.-smelling pube area (hair traps the sweat/bacteria that causes B.O.) is pretty darn gross. So honestly, I don't really care what other women do or what men prefer. Once again, I do it for me.
> 
> And I like makeup because I like playing with colors.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep...and there is the correlation to causation question...do you like it because society says you should, or does society like it because most individuals like something similar to the same thing...I think it is mostly because as individuals, most tend to find similar things attractive, and the people who most vehemently disagree, do so because they don't like feeling like an outsider


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## Cletus

Mr. Nail said:


> And How many of the other 97 percent were knee and foot inflicted after mentioning pubic grooming?


I think most of the remaining fall into the category of vacuuming accidents. 

"See, doc, I was working on vacuuming the stairs when my bathrobe slipped open, and well, you know..."


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## Piper502

Bah. I like tidying up my naughty bits. French bikini wax, close trimming on the rest. Nice and neat. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## larry.gray

SunnyT said:


> And not "letting my husband see" while hair is growing??? #1...shave it instead of denying him. #2...how do you HIDE it? Do grown, married couples not get naked (or get dressed) in front of each other??? #3...it's not a hassle to shave, not any more than leg shaving anyway. Whenever you shave your legs, you just keep on going.


I'm betting that is only an excuse used by a lower drive spouse.


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## sokillme

Absurdist said:


> I think I'll let Billy Joel do all the talking for me.
> 
> 
> _I said I love you and that's forever
> And this I promise from the heart
> I could not love you any better
> I love you just the way you are_


Now he doesn't sing that song, and when he does he sings,

_she got the house the dog the car_>


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## sokillme

wild jade said:


> I think it is sad how women are constantly shamed about their natural bodies to the point that we cannot go outside without applying a ton of toxic chemicals to our skin, or worse, injecting paralytics right into our faces, removing every stray body hair, sucking fat from one location and injecting it into another, and on and on and on.
> 
> Sure, it is up to women to decide if they wish to conform to all of this and to what degree. Personal choice and all.
> 
> Personally, I'm tempted to just tattoo Mattel onto my ass.


She says as she shames all the woman who do these things. Nice way to take away the agency of every woman who does this.


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## sokillme

The people who write articles like this are the same type of people who would have been the gossipy church ladies in the 50s and 60s, talking about how unchristian some one was because they didn't where a suit and tie to church. Same stuff, it's in the same same spirit. It's always about wanting to control other people, talking about how bad some people's choices are, all the while showing off how great they (the writer) are. Nothing new under the sun. 

Women get it the worst. I thought the woman's movement was to allow women to do whatever they wanted. Used to be women were shamed if you don't follow all the rules, now you are shamed if you do. It's always the same type of people who do the shaming though. Because for them it is not about the cause it's about being able to shame someone else. It gives them power, in their week little minds. 

Bah..


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## Spotthedeaddog

I like a bit of trim, although full clean is up to her (know one lady who preferred it, but for most it can be time consuming, itchy, or problems with ingrown hairs).
The "completely unkempt" look can be a bit overpowering depending on the occasion (you want bikini, you get bikini trim, yes).

But otherwise it's her body. As long as clean and disease/parasite free it's good.

I have a beard, full face but trim, because one of my ex's preferred beards, and would be happy to trim anywhere/everywhere else if that was desirable. Have found for hairy or older guys (read: with some gut  ) then genital hair is a must otherwise the whole "turkeyleg" look just doesn't work... so where do you stop shaving?


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## wild jade

sokillme said:


> She says as she shames all the woman who do these things. Nice way to take away the agency of every woman who does this.


I haven't shamed anyone, nor have I taken away their agency. Haven't you noticed? You would be hard pressed to find a woman who doesn't shave or wear make-up. It's even hard these days to find one who hasn't had some sort of surgery or botox or such thing. Obviously women have all kinds of reasons for doing these things.

I just think it's sad that pretty much everyone agree that women's bodies are gross unless they do something to fix it. This thread being a good case example.


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## wild jade

spotthedeaddog said:


> I like a bit of trim, although full clean is up to her (know one lady who preferred it, but for most it can be time consuming, itchy, or problems with ingrown hairs).
> The "completely unkempt" look can be a bit overpowering depending on the occasion (you want bikini, you get bikini trim, yes).


Yeah, I read a post on here recently where someone was saying that if she had a pool party and a woman allowed her pubes to be visible or an overweight woman dared to wear a bikini, those people would never again be welcome at her place. Because clearly they didn't understand what was appropriate or proper behavior.

But of course, it's an article that questions why we think these things that's doing all the shaming.


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## wild jade

notmyrealname4 said:


> Never had a UTI in my life, until I shaved my labia. The microscopic scrapes on the skin that result from a razor are great places for bacteria to grow.
> 
> I'm more sensitive to this kind of stuff than most people. I can only shave my legs in the direction of growth. If I ever try to shave close (against the growth), within the next day or two my legs will be itching like crazy. I even have to do this in my underarms--shave with the direction of hair.
> 
> So most people aren't as sensitive as me. I'm sure I shave because I was conditioned to. If we weren't told to do it, and weren't constantly shown images of people who don't even look like they have follicles; let alone hair---none of us would be bothered with removing body hair.
> 
> I wax the hair on the pubic bone area, and I'll trim the hair that actually grows on my privates. Because if I don't do those things, I'd feel like I was doing something wrong, or that I was "icky" in some way.



Yeah, me too. I feel icky and self conscious if I don't do these things.


----------



## Anon Pink

wild jade said:


> Personally, I'm tempted to just tattoo Mattel onto my ass.


That was funny as hell!


----------



## Anon Pink

Fashions come and go. Wild Jade's point is that we must define for ourselves what beauty means and on this point I completely agree. The woman who eschews any form of grooming or deodorant is likely to be doing so to make a statement, not because that is how she defines beauty. Conversely, the woman who slavishly copies grooming and make up from the most current issue of Cosmo, is also not following her definition of beauty but following cosmo's definition of beauty.

Look at how eye brow grooming changes from year to year, from the Lucile Ball penciled arch to the Frida Khalo unibrow and everything in between. Once you're married I guess the definition of beauty is more of a compromised decision.

But I think it's foolish not to acknowledge that culture plays a significant role in defining beauty.

In the bird world, the females are dull and camouflaged while the males have striking and bold color patterns. It is the females who chose the male. But in humans, the males tend to be dull and camouflaged while the females attempt striking and bold appearances ...to attract a male? To fit in? To feel beautiful?


----------



## wild jade

notmyrealname4 said:


> I hope you never got a UTI from shaving "everything"


Shaving there is too much for me. I don't think I'm as sensitive as you, but risk of infection (not UTI, but local) and ingrown hairs means the razor is out.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> Yeah, me too. I feel icky and self conscious if I don't do these things.


----------



## Fozzy




----------



## jld

Fozzy said:


>


And your point is?


----------



## wild jade

jld said:


> And your point is?


Even radical feminists choose to dye their hair, wear lots of make-up, and shape their eyebrows? Anyone want to bet whether she shaves too?


----------



## arbitrator

Fozzy said:


>


*Fozz: No disrespect, but let's just say that I couldn't get sexually worked-up or excited about that, even if I were in the midst of a ten-year celibate binge and on an eight-day drunk!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MJJEAN

I have hair down past my azz and arched brows. Any other body hair must go! I love the way being fully shaved looks and feels. It's most definitely not because some man likes it better that way, lol.

My friend, M, also shaves. She was here years ago preparing to go out with me and some other people we knew from school. One of those rare mommy's night out things. Since her H works afternoons, she just had him drop her off with her gear so that we could get ready at my house and I wouldn't have to drive to get her.

M was using my shower when I heard the most bloodcurdling screech ever. I ran in to help. Turns out, she was shaving her bits and nicked her clit. A few weeks later was the only time in my life I ever said the words "So, how's your clit healing?"


----------



## Fozzy




----------



## arbitrator

MJJEAN said:


> I have hair down past my azz and arched brows. Any other body hair must go! I love the way being fully shaved looks and feels. It's most definitely not because some man likes it better that way, lol.
> 
> My friend, M, also shaves. She was here years ago preparing to go out with me and some other people we knew from school. One of those rare mommy's night out things. Since her H works afternoons, she just had him drop her off with her gear so that we could get ready at my house and I wouldn't have to drive to get her.
> 
> M was using my shower when I heard the most bloodcurdling screech ever. I ran in to help. Turns out, she was shaving her bits and nicked her clit. A few weeks later was the only time in my life I ever said the words "So, how's your clit healing?"


*Gently suggest to M that when she's all healed up, that she should take some ibuprofen and then pay a visit to a good day spa or salon where they'll be most happy to present her with a full "Brazillian!"

It'd be far less painful than nicking her most sensitive organ with a razor!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

MJJEAN said:


> "So, how's your clit healing?"


Words I hope to never hear nor utter!
@Fozzy, you always make me laugh!


----------



## MJJEAN

arbitrator said:


> *Gently suggest to M that when she's all healed up, that she should take some ibuprofen and then pay a visit to a good day spa or salon where they'll be most happy to present her with a full "Brazillian!"
> 
> It'd be far less painful than nicking her most sensitive organ with a razor!*
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This was around 6-8 years ago now. She healed up rather quickly and said she hasn't had any loss of sensation. 




Anon Pink said:


> Words I hope to never hear nor utter!


And that I never hope to hear nor utter again! I am oh so careful when I shave and have been since M's accident. I may rush through my legs to get out the door on time, but I will not rush the girly bits.


----------



## sokillme

wild jade said:


> I haven't shamed anyone, nor have I taken away their agency. Haven't you noticed? You would be hard pressed to find a woman who doesn't shave or wear make-up. It's even hard these days to find one who hasn't had some sort of surgery or botox or such thing. Obviously women have all kinds of reasons for doing these things.
> 
> I just think it's sad that pretty much everyone agree that women's bodies are gross unless they do something to fix it. This thread being a good case example.


Everyone thinks everyone's bodies are gross, men where deodorant shave their backs. Get there teeth fix, get plugs, shave their faces every day. No different. Quit with the hyperbole. 

Lots of woman love makeup and whatever else their is a reason why there is so much money in it.


----------



## Cynthia

wild jade said:


> I haven't shamed anyone, nor have I taken away their agency. Haven't you noticed? You would be hard pressed to find a woman who doesn't shave or wear make-up. It's even hard these days to find one who hasn't had some sort of surgery or botox or such thing. Obviously women have all kinds of reasons for doing these things.
> 
> I just think it's sad that pretty much everyone agree that women's bodies are gross unless they do something to fix it. This thread being a good case example.


By your logic cutting one's hair and nails, brushing your teeth, and bathing are done because people who do such things think the body is gross and we need to do something to fix it. That’s ridiculous. We groom our bodies, because we are taking care of them.
People who don’t care about themselves are often not well groomed. People who like their bodies often take very good care of themselves by eating well, exercising, using lotions and other things to keep their skin in excellent condition, cutting their hair, doing their nails, etc. This is not because of some pressure or because they don’t feel good about themselves. Just the opposite. They do it to care for their bodies.

You are making assumptions about why people practice certain grooming habits and when they tell you otherwise you don't believe they know their own minds.
Happy as a clam gave this testimony about her reasons for her grooming habits and you came back with a rebuttal to her personal reasons for self-care as if you know this internet stranger better than she knows herself. 



happy as a clam said:


> Sorry, but I completely disagree. I don't feel shamed into anything you listed. I wear makeup because it makes me feel pretty. I wear lotion because it makes my skin feel soft. I shave because I like the feel of smooth, hairless skin.
> 
> Can't speak to the injections and liposuction you mention (never had it) but who are we to judge someone who wants to remove excess skin or bat wings after a major weight loss? No different than having breast reconstruction after a mastectomy and no one considers that to be vain.
> 
> I certainly don't feel like I have "Mattel" stamped on my a$$. I look good because I work d*mn hard at it. For ME. Not to conform to any arbitrary standards.





wild jade said:


> Yes, of course you feel prettier. That's the point. I'd bet my bottom dollar that you are prettier in the eyes of almost everyone.
> 
> And you would feel ugly if you had disgusting armpit hair or gross sweaty pubes. Or the bags under your eyes were showing (not that you have them, just an example).
> 
> Everyone knows how gross and unappealing the natural female body is. It's no secret. So we beautify, make ourselves the very best we can be. And are rewarded for our efforts. By acceptance instead of ridicule.


----------



## wild jade

CynthiaDe said:


> You are making assumptions about why people practice certain grooming habits and when they tell you otherwise you don't believe they know their own minds.
> Happy as a clam gave this testimony about her reasons for her grooming habits and you came back with a rebuttal to her personal reasons for self-care as if you know this internet stranger better than she knows herself.


Am I? All I said was that she wouldn't feel attractive if she had armpit hair and pubes. Do you think I'm wrong about that? In that quote she is saying pretty much said the same thing herself, just emphasizing that she likes to be smooth and hairless.

Yes, we groom to look after ourselves, no doubt. And we do what makes us feel good. 

I just wonder why body hair (on women) is considered the equivalent of grime. Disgusting to have and disgusting to look at.

I also wonder why it's considered so terrible to even ask the question. :scratchhead: It's like even the mere suggestion that women might look good even with all that hair or without that make-up is some kind of horrible insult. I don't get it. :scratchhead:


----------



## jld

A look at pubic hairstyles around the world - Matador Network


----------



## Anon Pink

Speaking of pube grooming...

Men are responding to the pressure, I assume, to present a well groomed pubic region. There have been a few threads about men's grooming and a LOT of the men responding in those threads admit they do some serious trimming and or shaving. I'm fairly certain they do it because their women want it that way.

I know I like my H shaved all around his penis and testicles. I trim all the other hair in that area fairly close but shave the rest. It looks better to me, kind of like shining a spot light on the interesting bits. But most importantly I absolutely detest hair in my mouth. If I get a stray hair in my mouth I have to stop and try to get it out. He rather enjoys being groomed and will make and appointment to get it done. 

This is why we need feminism. The ability to have equal decision making and preference power. No blow jobs on a hairy penis and testicles.


----------



## farsidejunky

I have done it for years. 

I started with razors, but didn't care for the bumps, so now I have a dedicated beard trimmer for the job. I shave it all off. 

I don't do it for my wife, nor did I do it for other women before we met. It is a cleaner look in general. Plus, when my guy goes from at-ease to attention, it really sucks to have hair stuck in the foreskin...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## TX-SC

Manscaping has been the rage for many years now. So, no, it's not just women. The whole "macho" hairy guy thing died in the early 80s with disco.


----------



## larry.gray

Is the guy in the background peeing?


----------



## wild jade

"The shorter the bush, the taller the tree." LOL

What's a Boyzilian? The Latest in Pubic Hair Trends for Men | Alternet

Apparently men also make the mistake of thinking pubic hair removal is more hygienic, even though it increases risk of infections and STIs.


----------



## farsidejunky

I have never had an STI or UTI in over 20 years of manscaping, or ever for that matter.

Anecdotal, but my truth nonetheless.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## wild jade

Anon Pink said:


> Speaking of pube grooming...
> 
> Men are responding to the pressure, I assume, to present a well groomed pubic region. There have been a few threads about men's grooming and a LOT of the men responding in those threads admit they do some serious trimming and or shaving. I'm fairly certain they do it because their women want it that way.
> 
> I know I like my H shaved all around his penis and testicles. I trim all the other hair in that area fairly close but shave the rest. It looks better to me, kind of like shining a spot light on the interesting bits. But most importantly I absolutely detest hair in my mouth. If I get a stray hair in my mouth I have to stop and try to get it out. He rather enjoys being groomed and will make and appointment to get it done.
> 
> This is why we need feminism. The ability to have equal decision making and preference power. No blow jobs on a hairy penis and testicles.



Turns out men are also getting into shaving armpits and legs too. 

Why Men Should Shave Their Armpits | Men's Health

Body hair is gross for everyone I guess. :scratchhead:


----------



## wild jade

farsidejunky said:


> I have never had an STI or UTI in over 20 years of manscaping, or ever for that matter.
> 
> Anecdotal, but my truth nonetheless.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Increased risk doesn't mean it will happen to you. STIs especially will depend a whole lot on who you are sleeping with.

But that is what the studies are saying. People think it is more hygienic, but it actually increases risk of various infections. The hair provides protection.


----------



## imtamnew

It might become funny when you guys realize that shaved armpits and pubic region is part of Islamic culture.
All men and women are expected to keep hair down there to a minimum. Like less than half the length of a rice grain.


----------



## sokillme

larry.gray said:


> Is the guy in the background peeing?


This is a picture of Sofia Loren, one of God's greatest creations and you are looking at the guy in the background?!:surprise:


----------



## sokillme

wild jade said:


> Turns out men are also getting into shaving armpits and legs too.
> 
> Why Men Should Shave Their Armpits | Men's Health
> 
> Body hair is gross for everyone I guess. :scratchhead:


Proves my point, everyone thinks everyone's body is gross. Plus it has been going on for thousands of years and it is not going to change any time soon.


----------



## larry.gray

sokillme said:


> This is a picture of Sofia Loren, one of God's greatest creations and you are looking at the guy in the background?!:surprise:


I saw it within 1/2 hour of a very good session with Mrs. Gray. My.mind wasn't in it's usual horny state.


----------



## imtamnew

larry.gray said:


> Someone help me with the proper logic fallacy. I think this would be a reverse ad homenim.
> 
> KKK members dunk water. You don't drink water too do you???


I just found it funny that something we have been doing since more than a thousand years is a topic of discussion like it's something new.


----------



## Mr The Other

Festivus said:


> So, ladies - what do you think of this:
> 
> A new survey shows most women groom their pubic hair. Should we be concerned?
> 
> Six out of seven of you do some grooming, and somewhere around one in five of you are opting to go clean-shaven.
> 
> I was surprised. I guess it's just a sign of my advancing years. It seems we're part of the problem, too -
> "About 21 percent of women in this new study said they groomed their pubic hair because their partner prefers it that way, and more than 31 percent said they do it because it makes their vagina look “nicer.” This study and others have found that most women groom their pubic hair before sex. And women in this survey were less likely to groom their pubic hair if their partners did not prefer it groomed, or if their partners did not landscape their own pubes."
> 
> So most of you seem to be doing it for some rather dubious reasons, unless getting your man to go down on you more often is important.
> 
> "But when women feel compelled to beg pardon from their doctors for the very existence of their bodies, they’ve most likely learned that their genitals are gross and their unaltered bodies are unacceptable for public view."
> 
> And in a related note, You don?t need to hide your camel toe to feel empowered | Fusion


I will intrude, as I possibly see far more examples than most on here. Broadly, over 40's rarely shave. The 30-40 generally do shave, at least a trim. Those in their late teens (don't judge) and 20's always trim and generally remove everything. It is perhaps going the way of armpit hair.


----------



## Mr The Other

farsidejunky said:


> I have done it for years.
> 
> I started with razors, but didn't care for the bumps, so now I have a dedicated beard trimmer for the job. I shave it all off.
> 
> I don't do it for my wife, nor did I do it for other women before we met. It is a cleaner look in general. Plus, when my guy goes from at-ease to attention, it really sucks to have hair stuck in the foreskin...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I have never done it myself, but recently went for an operation where they cut into my groin. This involved trimming one side of the bush and as a kind man, he did the other side to in order for it to be symmetrical. 

I confess, it looked good.


----------



## Mr The Other

sokillme said:


> This is a picture of Sofia Loren, one of God's greatest creations and you are looking at the guy in the background?!:surprise:


Out of respect for the cultural differences I have never urinated in public in the USA. This is your chance to thank me.


----------



## Mr The Other

sokillme said:


> Proves my point, everyone thinks everyone's body is gross. Plus it has been going on for thousands of years and it is not going to change any time soon.


Your point is not proven, as their is a picture of Sophia Loren just above your post.


----------



## Anon Pink

Mr The Other said:


> I will intrude, as I possibly see far more examples than most on here. Broadly, over 40's rarely shave. The 30-40 generally do shave, at least a trim. *Those in their late teens (don't judge) and 20's* always trim and generally remove everything. It is perhaps going the way of armpit hair.




Pffft! Totally judging!

Shame!

Shame!

Shame!


>


----------



## sokillme

Mr The Other said:


> Your point is not proven, as their is a picture of Sophia Loren just above your post.


What I mean is that depending on the culture there are always going to be things men and woman do to fit the norms of the time, as well as attract the opposite sex. There is nothing wrong with that, frankly it's fun.


----------



## joannacroc

Waxing produced horrible allergic reactions when I did it in my 20s, so I stick with a razor (gingerly). Any other means of hair removal for me seems to result in awful in-grown hairs, redness and allergic reactions, which just serves to make that area grosser, no? I did read the news with interest, although I guess I read a less one-sided article on the topic. 

In-grown hairs in between shaves are sometimes an issue, but seem to resolve themselves. Like some women here, I always trim even when I'm not dating, as the notion of sweatiness combined with pubic hair is sort of gross - it tends to trap odor, certainly. I guess new studies indicate it also helps protect our vaginas. I just can't, with the long pubic hair. Ugh. Especially noticed this visiting Europe, growing up. Think speedos and no grooming. *shudder of horror*


----------



## jld

imtamnew said:


> It might become funny when you guys realize that shaved armpits and pubic region is part of Islamic culture.
> All men and women are expected to keep hair down there to a minimum. Like less than half the length of a rice grain.


Religious traditions have often developed to serve a practical purpose. Do you know what that purpose may have been/still may be?


----------



## jld

Korea seems to be going in a different direction:

Pubic Hair Transplant Trend Korea


----------



## Personal

Mr The Other said:


> Let's keep the hatred to the Politics forum.


There is no hate at all in the post of mine that you have quoted. I wonder if you will have the decency to apologise for slanderously implying otherwise?


----------



## Mr The Other

Personal said:


> There is no hate at all in the post of mine that you have quoted. I wonder if you will have the decency to apologise for slanderously implying otherwise?


That is a very pompous post from someone struggling with what words mean. It is not slander for several reasons. Do not be scared to look words up before using them.


----------



## larry.gray

Mr The Other said:


> Let's keep the hatred to the Politics forum.


He wasn't the one who brought the topic over here to needle others. Reserve your annoyance for the one who drug his argument in from that forum to here.


----------



## Personal

Mr The Other said:


> That is a very pompous post from someone struggling with what words mean. It is not slander for several reasons. Do not be scared to look words up before using them.


There was no hatred in my post. To quote it as an example and to call for hatred to be used elsewhere, is a misrepresentation of my statement. Consequently your post tarnishes my character by inference that I am making hateful assertions. Therefore your post is slander.

Instead of apologising for your slander you go on to make a groundless personal attack against me.


----------



## Mr The Other

Personal said:


> There was no hatred in my post. To quote it as an example and to call for hatred to be used elsewhere, is a misrepresentation of my statement. Consequently your post tarnishes my character by inference that I am making hateful assertions. Therefore your post is slander.
> 
> Instead of apologising for your slander you go on to make a groundless personal attack against me.


Very well, I suppose I will get the summons to appear in court from you shortly, unless you are full of nonsense.


----------



## imtamnew

larry.gray said:


> He wasn't the one who brought the topic over here to needle others. Reserve your annoyance for the one who drug his argument in from that forum to here.


How was my first post needling anyone?

All I said was that Muslims have been doing this for a very long time like over a thousand years.
So there is NOTHING new in shaving the all the pits.

Anyways this is my last post in this thread.
I thought you were a smarter than that.


----------



## MEM2020

Personal,
Your depiction of Islam is a violation of forum guidelines. It is a type of 'group' insult. 

Please delete your post and I will then delete the remaining references to it.






Personal said:


> The Romans and Greeks were removing pubic hair long before Islam blighted this planet.


----------



## Anon Pink

jld said:


> Korea seems to be going in a different direction:
> 
> Pubic Hair Transplant Trend Korea


OMG! The mental visual is making me want to go to one of these bath houses just to watch a woman braid her long, stick straight, pubes and wind the braid around her clit hood creating a comfortable cushion to defend against camel toe. (Dirty mind unrestrained today)




> Yup, women are getting hair transplanted from their heads onto their lady parts.


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> OMG! The mental visual is making me want to go to one of these bath houses just to watch a woman braid her long, stick straight, pubes and wind the braid around her clit hood creating a comfortable cushion to defend against camel toe. (Dirty mind unrestrained today)


Wild, isn't it? I had never heard of pubic hair transplants before. And apparently they were some of the first hair transplants, period.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> Am thinking of buying some ribbons.


:lol:


----------



## peacem

wild jade said:


> Exactly! There are also a lot of intolerant Christians out there, but we don't therefore assume that all Christians are like the kkk.
> 
> And now back to pubic hair.
> 
> Am thinking of buying some ribbons.


Or you could get some of these!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GynTS8AdVZ4 :grin2:


----------



## Anon Pink

jld said:


> Wild, isn't it? I had never heard of pubic hair transplants before. And apparently they were some of the first hair transplants, period.


Speaking of periods...it was a quest for easier hygiene during very heavy periods that promoted me to begin trimming then shaving my pubes. Yes TMI on that. But we're in the ladies lounge and modern ladies do indeed discuss these details.

Also, back to transplanted pubes...do you think they have tiny little curling irons too?


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> Speaking of periods...it was a quest for easier hygiene during very heavy periods that promoted me to begin trimming then shaving my pubes. Yes TMI on that. But we're in the ladies lounge and modern ladies do indeed discuss these details.
> 
> Also, back to transplanted pubes...do you think they have tiny little curling irons too?


You are too funny, AP!


----------



## wild jade

jld said:


> :lol:


Oh, and I just learned that I can stop grooming AND still be a Jade doll.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/catesevill...with-quite-a?utm_term=.nigL34pQxp#.wpO0QjazLa


----------



## wild jade

peacem said:


> Or you could get some of these!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GynTS8AdVZ4 :grin2:


Oooh natural pink! It's makeover time, ladies!


----------



## sapientia

Tight weave carpet >> shag. Dust bunnies on a bare floor is bad for allergies. Thumbs up on the hygiene comment from Anon.


----------



## EleGirl

imtamnew said:


> It might become funny when you guys realize that shaved armpits and pubic region is part of Islamic culture.
> All men and women are expected to keep hair down there to a minimum. Like less than half the length of a rice grain.


I'm not sure why that would be funny since a lot of civilizations dating back thousands of years before there was Islam. This includes many ancient and even pre-historic cultures.... Hindu, Greek, Roman, etc etc etc

4000-3000BC Women are removing body hair with depilatory creams made from such combinations as arsenic, quicklime and starch.

The History of Shaving


----------



## imtamnew

EleGirl said:


> I'm not sure why that would be funny since a lot of civilizations dating back thousands of years before there was Islam. This includes many ancient and even pre-historic cultures.... Hindu, Greek, Roman, etc etc etc
> 
> 4000-3000BC Women are removing body hair with depilatory creams made from such combinations as arsenic, quicklime and starch.
> 
> The History of Shaving


Oh, I did not know that.
Thanks for the link. A very interesting read.

I wonder when the teeth filing will become a rage all over again.

I however don't think the article is very accurate as it mentions Hindu men shaving the crotch. Having grown up in India, I don't think any of my Hindu male friends ever shaved his chest or crotch.

If anything that article just seems to reinforce my original feeling that this is such a OLD thing.
Shaving the pubic region that treating it like a new fad...sounds funny(at least to me).


----------



## EleGirl

imtamnew said:


> Oh, I did not know that.
> Thanks for the link. A very interesting read.
> 
> I wonder when the teeth filing will become a rage all over again.
> 
> I however don't think the article is very accurate as it mentions Hindu men shaving the crotch. Having grown up in India, I don't think any of my Hindu male friends ever shaved his chest or crotch.


The article did not say that Hindu men today shave their crotch. Here is what it said.

"400BC The typical man of India is found sporting a neatly trimmed, well-groomed beard, yet he shaves off all hair on his chest and pubic area."

QUOTE=imtamnew;16051170]If anything that article just seems to reinforce my original feeling that this is such a OLD thing.

Shaving the pubic region that treating it like a new fad...sounds funny(at least to me).[/QUOTE]

Yes, hair removal is very old in that it goes back to even cavemen days. But, like many things, it's a custom that comes and goes as societies change over time. 

Islam did not invent it, not by a long shot. Instead they codified a social custom into religious law. I could be wrong, but I think that Islam is the only religion that actually has a scripture that tells people that they have to shave their pubic area and that they have to do it at least very 40 days. But then again, Islam is not just a religion, it's also a social structure, a way of life, a poltical system and a legal system.


----------



## imtamnew

EleGirl said:


> Instead they codified a social custom into religious law. I could be wrong, but I think that Islam is the only religion that actually has a scripture that tells people that they have to shave their pubic area and that they have to do it at least very 40 days. But then again, Islam is not just a religion, it's also a social structure, a way of life, a poltical system and a legal system.


I think Islam just borrowed this codification system from the Jews.

But my post had very little to actually do with Islam or religion. It was just a sense of amusement at something so common in my place being treated like a novelty in another place.

Imagine if you have always eaten eggs mixed with tomato ketchup. I mean its like the most common meal in your group. Everyone eats eggs mixed with ketchup. 


And then some one writes about how they started eating eggs with ketchup and its amazing. Couple of pages go discussing about the amazing eggs with ketchup thing. Won't you feel amused by it?

For the record: Do I eat eggs mixed with ketchup. That is not the point of my post.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> I'm not sure why that would be funny since a lot of civilizations dating back thousands of years before there was Islam. This includes many ancient and even pre-historic cultures.... Hindu, Greek, Roman, etc etc etc
> 
> 4000-3000BC Women are removing body hair with depilatory creams made from such combinations as arsenic, quicklime and starch.
> 
> The History of Shaving


Thanks for linking this, Ele. It does seem like religious rules often come about from some practical need. 

Your link said that ancient Egyptians had big problems with lice, and that shaving was the main way they dealt with that. Makes sense.

It also said that poor people did not shave, or at least not everywhere. I think that is interesting. This might be a stretch when talking about the ancient Egyptians particularly, because they really do seem to have had a practical reason for shaving, but it seems like what peasants have done over time is often the healthiest. It may reflect an acceptance/adaptation to nature.

People descended from European royalty, for example, may have hemophilia. People descended from peasants may not be as susceptible. Kings and queens often had problems with ill health from eating rich food. Peasants, who did not have access to that, ate a much simpler diet and did not usually suffer those same problems. Poor women usually breastfed their children, while the rich often used wet nurses, risking a greater chance at losing their children.

I have read sociologists say that the lower and middle classes in society emulate the rich. The rich set many social standards. While there was a practical reason for shaving in ancient Egypt, the desire to emulate the upper class might have played into things, too.

My understanding of the study cited early on in the thread is that researchers think it is safest to follow nature. 

I thought it was interesting that despite the Egyptians' focus on removing body hair, they also believed that a man's facial hair made him look masculine. I wonder if that sometimes extended to body hair, too?

Personally, I think hair on a man's body is very attractive.


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## wild jade

EleGirl said:


> I'm not sure why that would be funny since a lot of civilizations dating back thousands of years before there was Islam. This includes many ancient and even pre-historic cultures.... Hindu, Greek, Roman, etc etc etc
> 
> 4000-3000BC Women are removing body hair with depilatory creams made from such combinations as *arsenic, quicklime* and starch.
> 
> The History of Shaving


:surprise: No thanks!


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## EleGirl

imtamnew said:


> I think Islam just borrowed this codification system from the Jews.
> 
> But my post had very little to actually do with Islam or religion. It was just a sense of amusement at something so common in my place being treated like a novelty in another place.
> 
> Imagine if you have always eaten eggs mixed with tomato ketchup. I mean its like the most common meal in your group. Everyone eats eggs mixed with ketchup.
> 
> 
> And then some one writes about how they started eating eggs with ketchup and its amazing. Couple of pages go discussing about the amazing eggs with ketchup thing. Won't you feel amused by it?
> 
> For the record: Do I eat eggs mixed with ketchup. That is not the point of my post.


I did not state my point very well. 

What is the norm in one societal group is often not the norm in another. 

So just as you think it's funny/odd that some people do not see grooming in the same manner as you (and those in your culture), others people might think just the opposite... and might find your social groups grooming norms funny/odd. There are just a lot of different cultures. Most of the differences between them are superficial. 

My take on this type of grooming is to do what you want and what makes you feel good. And who cares what others think.


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