# Happiness in a sex-starved marriage?



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

I suspect the following scenario applies to most people in a sex-starved marriage, so I'm hoping for some good advice.

- I can't fix my sex-starved marriage
- I don't want to divorce
- I don't want to cheat
- I want to live in a happy environment at home

Two questions:
1) Is that last statement impossible given the first three?
2) If not, how do I go about achieving it?

(A quick edit: I don't want to explore the idea that my sex-starved marriage can be fixed. I want to explore the idea that happiness may be possible in spite of it not being fixed.)


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I am with you. 

Although we only have sex once or twice a month, the amount of affection and sex is the only thing stopping me from being able to say I have a good marriage. I am not a happy person.

For me, I take pride in my work. 
I play a bunch of golf. 
I read TAM. 

But I want more.

Will be reading this thread for any earth moving ideas for being happy in our situation.


----------



## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Sublimation of our sexual desires into creative pursuits could be one option. I'm very grateful to my wife on one count -- the less sex I get in my marriage, the more creative I become to the outside world...

I'm sure a number of achievers and accomplishers were sexually dissatisfied in their lives. Some consolation!

PS: I expect once the kids leave home, she might grow closer... if the marriage survives till then.

PPS: I also expect that one day the LD partners will apologise for what they made the others go through...



hubbydude said:


> I suspect the following scenario applies to most people in a sex-starved marriage, so I'm hoping for some good advice.
> 
> - I can't fix my sex-starved marriage
> - I don't want to divorce
> ...


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Sometimes you can create a peaceful environment at home, if not a happy one. If you get along well and like each other apart from the sexual mismatch, it may be possible to have a measure of happiness if you can redirect your sexual energy into other pursuits.

I was able to do that to some degree, but since my marriage did not allow for peace and mutual respect, it only provided a temporary hiatus while I prepared to leave. Perhaps yours has a better baseline to work with, which I think is necessary if you don't want to divorce. (Which I did, and made a far better and happier life for myself.)


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

1. Stop setting yourself up for rejection. 
2. Focus on improving yourself.
3. Assert yourself outside the bedroom - so that at least in that context you feel fairly treated.




hubbydude said:


> I suspect the following scenario applies to most people in a sex-starved marriage, so I'm hoping for some good advice.
> 
> - I can't fix my sex-starved marriage
> - I don't want to divorce
> ...


----------



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

hubbydude said:


> I suspect the following scenario applies to most people in a sex-starved marriage, so I'm hoping for some good advice.
> 
> - I can't fix my sex-starved marriage
> - I don't want to divorce
> ...


I am coming around to the idea that you have to be willing to leave your marriage to save your marriage. It is the only thing that will stir action in yourself and your spouse to change. It will not always work but entrenched behavior and attitudes will not shift without such a shock. This is true for your own discontent or wife's lack of sexual interest. Nothing changes unless you commit to changing it.


----------



## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

First point - Happiness and disappointment is a function of expectations. You can turn anything good that happens little into a pleasant surprise by expecting none of it. 

If you expect perfect weather on a trip, you will be disappointed. If you expect horrible weather and you have a few nice days, you will be pleasantly surprised. Same idea with sex. 

Expect nothing. If it so happens that you get sex then it will be a pleasant surprise. If you expect nothing you will avoid disappointment. Accepting your sexless marriage completely is the key to avoiding the awful feeling of disappointment/rejection

Point two - Unhappiness is also a function of comparison. You compare your situation to that of others (Keeping up with the Joneses). You also compare it to what you expected or what you want. You can stop doing that and just take what comes instead of comparing

Point three - Do all you would like to do in terms of providing love, affection and attention toward her without any expectation of reciprocation. 

Point four - Be the best you you can be for you

Point five - don't take rejection as rejection. Take it as an attempt like going up to bat. The major league hitters average something like 1 for 5 .200 in a slump and only 4 for 10 .400 when on fire. Be proud to be at the plate of a major league that is your marriage and swing at the best pitches knowing the odds are way under 50% but you still wouldn't quit the game as ..250 n the majors is considered successful. Reframe your mindset with logic.

Point six - Don't self reject. Don't talk yourself out of making a pass at your wife no matter how rotten she is to you. Be proud that you can take it like a man. Once in a while she might let one thru. I used to self-reject talking myself out of trying to avoid rejection and then I called B.S. on myself and now I just go for it knowing the odds are zero if I don't try and something if I do. I also believe my wife needs to know the percentage of times I want her versus when we have sex instead of it being a secret. She now knows because I don't self- reject

Point seven - Be very aware responsive desire. Often enough to warrant attention the LD spouse will respond some of the time once they get going. You MUST be willing to push thru to the point of that knowing it might not happen and being able to handle it.

The trouble that expectations and comparison get you into is unhappiness. They are traps.

Self rejection sucks and misleads your spouse. Bad idea also. Be strong about rejection and handle it like a man's man

Good luck


----------



## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

hubbydude said:


> I suspect the following scenario applies to most people in a sex-starved marriage, so I'm hoping for some good advice.
> 
> - I can't fix my sex-starved marriage
> - I don't want to divorce
> ...


This is a tough one. For years my marriage was sex-starved and my solution was to have a cyber affair. I figured it was only "sort of" cheating. It was a terrible idea. But I understand the frustration.

So now that my affair is over and my confession has been made I've learned some things. I don't want my marriage to end which means no more cheating but I don't want to live the rest of my life without passion.

So what do you do??

This is what I do:

I try to look, act and be as sexy as possible. I make sexy jokes and I'm very affectionate whenever I'm with him. This helps create a relationship with erotic elements. I try to reduce his stress as much as possible because stress is a sexual killer. And I try not to figure out everything at once. I take my life day by day and moment by moment.


----------



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

thread the needle said:


> First point - Happiness and disappointment is a function of expectations. You can turn anything good that happens little into a pleasant surprise by expecting none of it.
> 
> If you expect perfect weather on a trip, you will be disappointed. If you expect horrible weather and you have a few nice days, you will be pleasantly surprised. Same idea with sex.
> 
> ...


So the Buddhists say and I tend to agree with them.

But sex is not just a warm cup of tea that magically appears on a cold day. It is woven into our psyche and physiology such that you don't have expect sex to feel the need to be close to your partner. 

Moreover, as a man, I can tell you that the effort of getting aroused and pursing your partner takes a mental and emotional commitment that feels really sh!tty when it is rejected. Once and a while is no big deal, but most of time is frankly horrible and at some point you just stop trying and then sex never happens.

Expecting what you can't have causes suffering, but at what cost? To stop being a man to avoid feeling bad? That does not go down smoothly.


----------



## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

Does masturbating more when you're in this situation help or make it worse?


----------



## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

ScrambledEggs said:


> So the Buddhists say and I tend to agree with them.
> 
> But sex is not just a warm cup of tea that magically appears on a cold day. It is woven into our psyche and physiology such that you don't have expect sex to feel the need to be close to your partner.
> 
> ...


The cost? How about the benefit? A happier life. It doesn't go down smoothly yet because inner peace with it has not been achieved. 

Either you give it a whirl or you dismiss it. It's a choice.


----------



## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

I'm in a sexless marriage. It is a weaker marriage as a result. But deciding to accept that it is sexless can be freeing. 

Whether you can be happy or not is a question only you can answer. If thoughts about sex, passion and romance are constant than probably not.

I have made the choice that living with the consequences of divorce me, and most importantly for my son, won't make me happier.

As for cheating, it is an important question that it seems too many people answer with a poorly thought out "of course I won't cheat"


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

hubbydude said:


> I suspect the following scenario applies to most people in a sex-starved marriage, so I'm hoping for some good advice.
> 
> - I can't fix my sex-starved marriage
> - I don't want to divorce
> ...


I think the only way to achieve personal happiness is to totally accept other things as being so much more important to you than sex that you are happy to give up the sex.

You can have a happy environment at home as long as everyone else is generally satisfied. I don't think this is what you meant, but if it is, the path would be to simply stop trying for sex with your spouse. It will take the pressure off of him/her, and they will be happier. You won't necessarily be happier, but your environment will be.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

hubbydude said:


> I suspect the following scenario applies to most people in a sex-starved marriage, so I'm hoping for some good advice.
> 
> - I can't fix my sex-starved marriage
> - I don't want to divorce
> ...


You develop a fetish for erotic sexual denial, and then praise your wife for not giving it to you! She will not believe it and will start toying with you like a curious kitten playing with a ball of yarn... Next thing you know she will be all tangled up in you!


----------



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

badsanta said:


> You develop a fetish for erotic sexual denial, and then praise your wife for not giving it to you! She will not believe it and will start toying with you like a curious kitten playing with a ball of yarn... Next thing you know she will be all tangled up in you!


badsanta: The best guru on TAM. 

Let me know if you start a cult, I want to get in on the ground floor.


----------



## Pleaser44 (May 5, 2015)

Glad to see that I'm not alone.....I'm sorry it has to be you in the same boat. . . haaaaa
for me it's about the BONDING while having sex. I MISS it. For some reason, I don't want to leave. I did leave for 2.5yrs, here I am. . . back in the same situation. I had told him that my deal breaker would be a sex starved marriage AND here we are again. 
do you believe that some people just CANNOT be affectionate and nurturing? Please provide your thoughts - i'm desperate :'(


----------



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

thread the needle said:


> _lots of stuff_.




Thanks for the reply and this is in fact where I depart from what I understand to be the Buddhist view of happiness. The idea that happiness can be achieved just by making it super easy to meet your expectations may well be a truth, but it is not one I would live my life by. 

Don't get me wrong, I am down with being mindful and considered about our expectations, but some of the best experiences in life revolve around the highs and lows of our passions and ambitions. 

Moreover, sex and the desire of it, is such a fundamental part of psyche and biology in order to to restrain it in our life, don't we have to deny a fundamental part of our nature? (oh, god I sound like Osho now).



> Says who? Are they right? Why do you believe that? Who taught it to you? Can we examine why we feel the way we fell and alter it? If beliefs or feelings are setting one up for failure that person needs to challenge them firmly and explore them fully to see if indeed they can be altered for the purpose of living a more satisfying life. I challenge conventional wisdom for the purposes of growth. Enlightenment comes from examination just as invention is the mother of necessity. I am not suggesting anyone would want to, just that they should if a better life is the goal and the current situation is not conducive to allowing current beliefs and feelings to provide said life


So when I am lying there a bit worked up and after my wife has refused me sexually for 7 months in a row, the physical discomfort (arousal anxiety) is not something I can control and the rejection of my wife is a clear rebuke on the marriage we agreed to have. Do I accept it by changing who I am and what I want, or do I accept it by leaving my marriage and finding a partner that is into me. Maybe I just refuse to accept that divorce is not an option in this case. For me it certainly is. 



thread the needle said:


> The cost? How about the benefit? A happier life. It doesn't go down smoothly yet because inner peace with it has not been achieved.
> 
> Either you give it a whirl or you dismiss it. It's a choice.


There are many things I would not give up to trade for peace, but I insist on peace with them. I believe it is possible have both. While not 100% true I think it is mostly right.


_Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
_​
This is hyperbole and I do not live my life by a made up story. But on occasion I follow the wisdom of Sith Master Al.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

hubbydude said:


> I suspect the following scenario applies to most people in a sex-starved marriage, so I'm hoping for some good advice.
> 
> - I can't fix my sex-starved marriage
> - I don't want to divorce
> ...


Certainly! All you have to do is stop functioning like a normal human being. When you find the switch that turns off your natural, human need for sex and physical affection, please let the rest of us know how you did it.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

badsanta said:


> You develop a fetish for erotic sexual denial, and then praise your wife for not giving it to you! She will not believe it and will start toying with you like a curious kitten playing with a ball of yarn... Next thing you know she will be all tangled up in you!


More like a kitten dragging a mouse under the deck and toying with it.....the slow death method....


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Looking for happiness in a sex starved marriage is like looking for happiness in a food-starved restaurant.

You can sit at the table, enjoy nice conversation, text old friends, maybe even sip a glass of water or two. But don't waste your life waiting for the main course. If FOOD is really what you want, get up, pay the check, and find a different restaurant.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> ... get up, pay the check, and find a different restaurant.


You can even enjoy several different restaurants in the same day!


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Look on the bright side. Being 'married' to a roommate or a sibling can be liberating in your day to day life. You just don't have to worry as about that other person as much, don't have to check in with them as much, don't have self edit every thought every word because it would likely piss them off. It's like being divorced and not parting with half your stuff.


----------



## Icey181 (Apr 16, 2015)

I personally cannot understand this line of thinking.

I guess what you do is stop pretending to be married. Set up different bedrooms and just accept that you are two, presumably friendly, individuals who live together and share some life responsibilities.


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

Some great advice already, thanks 

I welcome the light-hearted responses, it helps take the edge off of an otherwise thoroughly disheartening topic. But I would like to focus on achieving happiness while remaining in a sex-starved marriage - i.e. let's assume that it can't be fixed and that divorce or infidelity will cause instant death by lightning strike.

Let's also assume that happiness is possible. Recognizing that happiness is a scale that spans from Despair to Bliss, let's consider that anything over the midpoint may be deemed "happy".


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Looking for happiness in a sex starved marriage is like looking for happiness in a food-starved restaurant.
> 
> You can sit at the table, enjoy nice conversation, text old friends, maybe even sip a glass of water or two. But don't waste your life waiting for the main course. If FOOD is really what you want, get up, pay the check, and find a different restaurant.


Fozzy, 

I am trying my best to wrap my head around this analogy. I have NEVER experienced this, but the closest I once came was an extremely popular BBQ restaurant that would only serve the best smoked pig that often had to cook all day before it was ready. If you did not get there early enough, yes, they WOULD run out. BUT this restaurant would always inform patrons that they had run out before even letting them get in line. 

Perhaps where you live they do things different. Where I live, you always pay up front in cash for BBQ, and if they do not serve you, someone back in the kitchen will probably have to call the police and be placed into protective custody. 

Can you give challenged folk such as myself a better analogy? 

Thanks, 
Badsanta


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,

Are you in a 'sex starved' marriage or a 'love starved' marriage?

Those two situations, while related, aren't quite the same. 

Start with this. Why is your wife with you? 





hubbydude said:


> Some great advice already, thanks
> 
> I welcome the light-hearted responses, it helps take the edge off of an otherwise thoroughly disheartening topic. But I would like to focus on achieving happiness while remaining in a sex-starved marriage - i.e. let's assume that it can't be fixed and that divorce or infidelity will cause instant death by lightning strike.
> 
> Let's also assume that happiness is possible. Recognizing that happiness is a scale that spans from Despair to Bliss, let's consider that anything over the midpoint may be deemed "happy".


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> HD,
> 
> Are you in a 'sex starved' marriage or a 'love starved' marriage?
> 
> ...


I would describe my marriage as sex starved but not love starved. I do believe that my wife loves me, which is important. Having said that, I also believe she loves the dog.

I could (and have) started threads that have explored all of the reasons why our marriage is sex starved and what I might be able to do about it. But I'd just like to focus this thread on developing a Plan B (what if it can't be fixed, but I still want to remain married and monomogous?).


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

hubbydude said:


> ...
> But I'd just like to focus this thread on developing a Plan B (what if it can't be fixed, but I still want to remain married and monomogous?).


Just a quick side note. This is, in my opinion, the single biggest failing of books like MMSLP. They offer great advice on how to fix a sex starved marriage but their Plan B is essentially, "give up and get divorced". They might be right, but I'd like to explore the concept for myself.


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> Looking for happiness in a sex starved marriage is like looking for happiness in a food-starved restaurant.
> 
> You can sit at the table, enjoy nice conversation, text old friends, maybe even sip a glass of water or two. But don't waste your life waiting for the main course. If FOOD is really what you want, get up, pay the check, and find a different restaurant.



Howard Jones. No one is to blame song.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4Fiba80YVyM


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,
I wasn't changing the subject - I was addressing the real issue. Which isn't sex. 

Most folks are unable to be happy - loving someone who doesn't love them back. 




hubbydude said:


> I would describe my marriage as sex starved but not love starved. I do believe that my wife loves me, which is important. Having said that, I also believe she loves the dog.
> 
> I could (and have) started threads that have explored all of the reasons why our marriage is sex starved and what I might be able to do about it. But I'd just like to focus this thread on developing a Plan B (what if it can't be fixed, but I still want to remain married and monomogous?).


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

hubbydude said:


> Let's also assume that happiness is possible.


I am not convinced happiness _is_ possible in the sex starved marriage. Sex is such a fundamental part of our humanity, and a necessary component of emotional intimacy.

If your wife were, for example, horribly and permanently disabled, you might come to an inner acceptance of the end of your sex life, yet you would still have needs, urges, and frustrations. You would miss the sex even though you completely understand why.

If your wife were unable to have sex but otherwise was a fully functioning human, you could work on some alternatives. Lots of physical touch and words of affirmation. Hit the "5 Love Languages" really hard. Sexy talk and flirting, with her full endorsement of you taking care of yourself whenever you have the need.

But what you have instead is a wife who avoids sex and all things related. So I don't see how one reconciles that. It would require submerging your sexuality, and convincing yourself the other things are so much more important to you that you don't really care about no sex.

But you can't change your biology unless you get yourself castrated.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The other half the equation has to do with your spouse. 

What do they expect from you? 

Plenty of LD/NO desire spouses with very high expectations. That is not a happy situation for the HD spouse. 




Thor said:


> I am not convinced happiness _is_ possible in the sex starved marriage. Sex is such a fundamental part of our humanity, and a necessary component of emotional intimacy.
> 
> If your wife were, for example, horribly and permanently disabled, you might come to an inner acceptance of the end of your sex life, yet you would still have needs, urges, and frustrations. You would miss the sex even though you completely understand why.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HDude,

I'd stay focused on this theme: 

Does my spouse love me? And what does that really mean? 

When someone says: My spouse loves me and they also love our dog. 

That makes me think - there is a huge lack of respect in the marriage. 

Is that correct? If so, is your question: Can I be happy in a marriage to someone who doesn't respect me? 





Thor said:


> I am not convinced happiness _is_ possible in the sex starved marriage. Sex is such a fundamental part of our humanity, and a necessary component of emotional intimacy.
> 
> If your wife were, for example, horribly and permanently disabled, you might come to an inner acceptance of the end of your sex life, yet you would still have needs, urges, and frustrations. You would miss the sex even though you completely understand why.
> 
> ...


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OP--you could also explore the idea of an open marriage, if that's something that might interest you. It's not cheating if it's not a secret.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Fozzy,
I did a quick read of Hdudes other threads. This is the opposite end of the spectrum of where he wants to be. 

Hdude,
H2 wants more unpredictability from you - because that passion is important to her. You want more reassurance from her. In that sense you two are deadlocked. 






Fozzy said:


> OP--you could also explore the idea of an open marriage, if that's something that might interest you. It's not cheating if it's not a secret.


----------



## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

Icey181 said:


> I personally cannot understand this line of thinking.
> 
> I guess what you do is stop pretending to be married. Set up different bedrooms and just accept that you are two, presumably friendly, individuals who live together and share some life responsibilities.



Yes. That's what happened to me. We slept in different bedrooms and he spent more and more time with his elderly mother and I spent more and more time feeling like the housekeeper and this led me to feel that cheating with an online boyfriend wasn't so bad. That's the progression.


----------



## Icey181 (Apr 16, 2015)

Brigit said:


> Yes. That's what happened to me. We slept in different bedrooms and he spent more and more time with his elderly mother and I spent more and more time feeling like the housekeeper and this led me to feel that cheating with an online boyfriend wasn't so bad. That's the progression.


This and the OP's position are those rare cases where, while I cannot condone cheating, I can at least understand it and sympathize with the cheater somewhat.

The OP's question, to me, is a paradox.

How do you remain happy within a situation which is inherently unhappy?

Simple answer, you do not.

There is one person to whom you cannot lie to and that is yourself.

You will always know the truth, whether you admit it openly or not.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

hubbydude said:


> Just a quick side note. This is, in my opinion, the single biggest failing of books like MMSLP. They offer great advice on how to fix a sex starved marriage but their Plan B is essentially, "give up and get divorced". They might be right, but I'd like to explore the concept for myself.



Their greatest failing is that they don't look into the root cause of why things are the way they are...

Can you be happy? I don't think so. I find happiness in lots of things. Start denying your partner the basics as well. Talk, involvement, time together, etc. I look forward to Saturdays where we run errands for 2 or 3 hours and exchange three sentences total. I can see how upset she is - but hey honey, I did not dig this hole. 

Establish the same rules you would with college roomies. 

And plan a nice exit, supernova or torpedo.


----------



## committed_guy (Nov 22, 2011)

hubbydude said:


> I suspect the following scenario applies to most people in a sex-starved marriage, so I'm hoping for some good advice.
> 
> - I can't fix my sex-starved marriage
> - I don't want to divorce
> ...


To quote a famous philosopher: you must find the happiness within yourself.

You need to change the focus of your life from your marriage to you. What are the things that make you happy and do them.

For me they were big things like: 

* being able to run long distances

* playing a musical instrument

* finishing my bachelor's degree after 20 years.

All of those things require intense dedication and time commitment. By doing them I am setting a goal and then spending every waking hour to achieve those goals. Those things have become more important to me than my marriage--which helps with the sex issue.

As I loose weight my clothes are looser due to the more running then I feel better about myself and have more confidence. 

Ultimately you may need to leave your marriage. If yours is like mine right now it's not the right time to leave. Eventually it will be but due to finances and school it isn't. Something I've been thinking a lot about recently is that this is the only life we have to live. There will never be another me that lives. This is my life and I am responsible for my happiness. We need to find that contentment within ourselves despite outside constraints and pressures. My embittered wife won't care how I felt after I am dead. I will, however, have missed out on many of life's blessings if I don't make choices sooner. There is a right time to wait.


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

HubbDude-

I had to find a new kind of happiness. My wife told me she had a "platonic " love for me. After 23 years, deep down, when I honestly think about it, its always been this way. I've been stressed over this for 5 years now. I also realize I have no loving thoughts for my wife. In all these years, my wife never wanted to rock the boat. She would comply when I wanted sex. Sex wasn't the loving kind that I was after.

Plan B? Can you be happy? Assuming you don't have or want an open marriage and live a celibate life. Yes you can find happiness if you are a Buddhist Monk!

I no longer want or expect sex with my wife. I no long talk to my wife about our sexlessness. We sleep in different rooms. We don't even say good night to each other and I drink my morning coffee outside or in the other room. I have no desire to even see her.

I still cook dinner because I enjoy it. I went through a phase where I cooked food I knew she didn't like. She washes her own clothes now and I wash mine and my daughters. I still vacuum 90% of the time and still do the majority of the cleaning. I don't want her to ever say she has to clean up after me.


I have many hobby's now and I still enjoy the animal shelter. I spend time with our daughter. We go bike riding or swimming now that its summer. 

I have a life of my own. My wife told me I can have sex with other women as long as we keep an intact family for our daughter. That hasn't happened, but I am developing friendships with women. 

I am not really after sex. I am after a romantic relationship. That may not happen as long as I am married. 

Am I happy? I am happier now that I am not hoping for sex with my wife.

Divorce is the only solution.

Until then, We are roommates.


----------



## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> 3. Assert yourself outside the bedroom - so that at least in that context you feel fairly treated.


What about asserting yourself in the bedroom? Is that acceptable? Or would it be seen as marital rape too?


----------



## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

We *are* in separate bedrooms. I haven't been in her bed since the kids were born.

We do have occasional sex... when the stress gets too much for me. (For her, it was just on one occasion when she initiated.) 

We live together, share some of life's responsibilities. And share sex. Sometimes.

Does it have to be an all or none thing?



Icey181 said:


> I personally cannot understand this line of thinking.
> 
> I guess what you do is stop pretending to be married. Set up different bedrooms and just accept that you are two, presumably friendly, individuals who live together and share some life responsibilities.


----------



## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

For a man -- most men -- sex = love.




MEM11363 said:


> HD,
> 
> Are you in a 'sex starved' marriage or a 'love starved' marriage?
> 
> ...


----------



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

brownmale said:


> What about asserting yourself in the bedroom? Is that acceptable? Or would it be seen as marital rape too?


Asserting is fine--to a point.

The only positive outcome from this suggestion is if his wife has a sub fetish and she wants him to man up in an edgey sort of way, but it also uncomfortable in expressing her needs to be dominated. This can and should be brought forward through communication and perhaps therapy but frankly does not seem very likely in this case.

Raping her to see if she likes it is a really bad idea.


----------



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)




----------



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

The meme I posted is light hearted but it has the answer. You want to be happy and unfulfilled. Kill the part of yourself that wants to be fulfilled.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SE,

Now we're talking. And after you kill the part of yourself that craves respect - what's left? 




ScrambledEggs said:


> The meme I posted is light hearted but it has the answer. You want to be happy and unfulfilled. Kill the part of yourself that wants to be fulfilled.


----------



## NeverAgain12 (Jan 15, 2012)

Badsanta, there's nothing wrong with the analogy, the point of it is that the restaurant he is describing does NOT exist, as it's not really a restaurant if that's all you do there. He's saying you're not really in a marriage if it's sexless and it's the same as the fictional restaurant he describes.




badsanta said:


> Fozzy,
> 
> I am trying my best to wrap my head around this analogy. I have NEVER experienced this, but the closest I once came was an extremely popular BBQ restaurant that would only serve the best smoked pig that often had to cook all day before it was ready. If you did not get there early enough, yes, they WOULD run out. BUT this restaurant would always inform patrons that they had run out before even letting them get in line.
> 
> ...


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

john117 said:


> Their greatest failing is that they don't look into the root cause of why things are the way they are...
> 
> Can you be happy? I don't think so. I find happiness in lots of things. Start denying your partner the basics as well. Talk, involvement, time together, etc. I look forward to Saturdays where we run errands for 2 or 3 hours and exchange three sentences total. I can see how upset she is - but hey honey, I did not dig this hole.
> 
> ...


So, you find happiness in being a source of unhappiness or discomfort to your wife? And do you expect that if and when the supernova or the torpedo hits, that your happiness will reach a pinnacle?


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

hubbydude said:


> I would describe my marriage as *sex starved but not love starved*. I do believe that *my wife loves me*, which is important. Having said that, I also believe she loves the dog.
> 
> ....But I'd just like to focus this thread on developing a Plan B (what if it can't be fixed, but *I still want to remain married and monomogous*?).





hubbydude said:


> Just a quick side note. This is, in my opinion, the single biggest failing of books like MMSLP. They offer great advice on how to fix a sex starved marriage but their Plan B is essentially, "give up and get divorced". They might be right, but I'd like to explore the concept for myself.





Thor said:


> I am not convinced happiness _is_ possible in the sex starved marriage. Sex is such a fundamental part of our humanity, and a necessary component of emotional intimacy.
> 
> If your wife were, for example, horribly and permanently disabled, you might come to an inner acceptance of the end of your sex life, yet you would still have needs, urges, and frustrations. You would miss the sex even though you completely understand why.
> 
> ...


This is a very interesting thread. Thank you H dude. For the most part I also agree with Thor and many of the others who have posted.

My advice, is that a "good life" can be found within a SSM. For me, if my SSM would have continued, I would have chosen divorce, but my W ultimately came around. But this was something I have thought about.

As to role models, there are those that for religious or other reasons take vows of celbacy. They can lead happy lives. Another group, are those who are in a marrage that has been damaged by illness and can no longer have sex. 

Because I am 66, I know many men who are in marriages where their impotence or their wife's illness preclude PIV sex. For the most part that doesn't mean all forms of sex are off the table. Many of them find alternate means of sexual contact and bonding with their spouse. 

Since you say your relationship is sex starved but not love starved, I assume that your wife takes some pleasure in making you happy and fulfilling some of your needs. If so then try to find some kind of sexual compromise with her that meets your basic physical needs, but possibly not all your emotional dreams. It will be hard to bring the topic up and actually communicate with her, but it might be the most empowering and marriage preserving thing you can do.

I would urge you to see if your spouse may be "willing" for some alternate form of sex, that while not PIV, may allow you the sexual bonding that you probably desire. There are masturbation sleeves, handjobs, BJ's, prostate massage, petting to orgasm, etc. There are a galaxy of things that can be done that go by the names of outercourse and frottage that can all involve your ejaculations and orgasm on different parts of her body.

If that is not possible, then there are also things that can be viewed in some context as sex by one partner and not sex by the other. They can range from foot fetish to chastity play. They can include tease and denial. Some men can even get off on dirty talk and sexual humiliation or bondage and physical punishment. I have read that there are many rich female dominatrix out there that don't ever allow their cients to ejaculate. It all depends on how much your "not loved starved marriage" means your wife wants to please you and what you might find "sexual" and what she might be willing to do to please you in a way she doesn't find sexual.

Assuming that your W is not into any of the above, then there are still some things you can do to increase the emotional intimacy in your marriage. There is a book call Still Sexy after all these years. It is a compelation of interives of women over age 50 who for one reason or another can no longer have sex with their husbands (widow, illness, divorce, etc.). It explores how these women have retained their sexuality and sensuality. I suggest that you read it. 

I would also echo Thor's suggestion of hitting 5LL really hard to feel really well loved and cherished.

Maybe you can consturct in your mind an elaborate role playing game, where you view your wife as having a "medical" condition that no longer allows her to have sex, but where she and you share intimacy and emotional closeness.

As has been stated by many others, exercise hard, do things that you find emotionally satisfying. Don't expect her to provide you with happiness, focus on providing yourself with happiness, pride, and feelings of worth. From the book still sexy after all these years, you always focus on family, acts of service to your community, self improvement.

If you need physical contact, as I did/do, get weekly massages from a pretty woman who just gives massages. After a few months you will get to know her, you will become a valued regular customer and you will get to talk to someone who works at really making you feel good physically and emotionally. They may even complement you on the weight that you have lost, the muscles you have gained and how well your life is going. Its not sex and it's not a EA, but it can be emotionally beneficial for you.

Again, as others have said, have low expectations and focus on 
what makes you happy, how much your W makes you happy and the things that she does that you feel make you feel loved.

Good luck to you.
.


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> SE,
> 
> Now we're talking. And after you kill the part of yourself that craves respect - what's left?


Let me re-instate the word "sex" in place of "respect" (and previously "love" in your other post) although I appreciate your wider point.

To answer the question of whether happiness is possible in a sex-starved marriage, really does require an understanding of this point - After you kill the part of yourself that craves sex, what's left, and is it enough to enable happiness?

Perhaps the people best placed to answer such a question are not married people at all. We're effectively talking about removing the part of ourselves that defines us as being married. We're really talking about finding a way to live as married couple in the logistical sense (shared home, family, finances etc.) but as sexless, single people in an emotional sense.

Ignoring the moral and ethical question of whether it's reasonable to expect a partner to be monogomous in such circumstances.....If someone believes that happiness is not possible in a sex starved marriage, do they also believe that there is no-one in the world who is single, sexless, and happy?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,

I'll leave you with a single thought. Every guy I've seen get to a good place - deals with the hard stuff. 

No offense intended, I don't see you doing that. 

You are attempting to frame this question in a way you can live with. I've never seen anyone do that - and end up happy. 




hubbydude said:


> Let me re-instate the word "sex" in place of "respect" (and previously "love" in your other post) although I appreciate your wider point.
> 
> To answer the question of whether happiness is possible in a sex-starved marriage, really does require an understanding of this point - After you kill the part of yourself that craves sex, what's left, and is it enough to enable happiness?
> 
> ...


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> HD,
> 
> I'll leave you with a single thought. Every guy I've seen get to a good place - deals with the hard stuff.
> 
> ...


I get it. Although I don't think I'm ignoring the hard stuff, I'm just trying to consider in this thread that if dealing with the hard stuff leads to remaining married but sex-starved, how might happiness be found.

Perhaps you're right, perhaps that's ignoring the hard stuff, and if happiness is the true goal then divorce is a better option. But it's not just my happiness that I need to worry about, it's that of my family too.

At this point, staying married is better for my children's happiness. My wife and I don't fight, there are examples of love, care and respect between us that my children see.....just not the desire and the passion that might be reasonably expected of a healthy marriage. If I can find ways to pursue happiness for myself while maintaining and developing that of my children, that's really my goal for this thread. I wouldn't expect those efforts to be easy but I'd hope they would be worthwhile.


----------



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

hubbydude said:


> Perhaps the people best placed to answer such a question are not married people at all. We're effectively talking about removing the part of ourselves that defines us as being married. We're really talking about finding a way to live as married couple in the logistical sense (shared home, family, finances etc.) but as sexless, single people in an emotional sense.


I disagree. Unmarried people have the hope of sex, wither that is finding a lifelong partner or getting lucky. It is one thing to have a dry spell and quite another to live without hope.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,
Your goal is admirable. And your concern about the kids - that's a strength not a weakness. 

Let's jump forward a decade - the kids are out of the house - and your marriage is still sexless. What's your plan? 

There is no wrong answer to that question. Though I don't believe it is fair to have a plan to leave and not disclose that now. 

This is the - love sans compatibility talk. And financial planning becomes a significant piece of that. Savings plus helping her figure out a job/career so she's not overly dependent on you. 

If you do plan to stay after the kids leave - well I'd suggest discussing that with an IC. Because there is a big difference between compensating for a broken marriage for the kids, and sacrificing your entire life for someone else. 






hubbydude said:


> I get it. Although I don't think I'm ignoring the hard stuff, I'm just trying to consider in this thread that if dealing with the hard stuff leads to remaining married but sex-starved, how might happiness be found.
> 
> Perhaps you're right, perhaps that's ignoring the hard stuff, and if happiness is the true goal then divorce is a better option. But it's not just my happiness that I need to worry about, it's that of my family too.
> 
> At this point, staying married is better for my children's happiness. My wife and I don't fight, there are examples of love, care and respect between us that my children see.....just not the desire and the passion that might be reasonably expected of a healthy marriage. If I can find ways to pursue happiness for myself while maintaining and developing that of my children, that's really my goal for this thread. I wouldn't expect those efforts to be easy but I'd hope they would be worthwhile.


----------



## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

Thor said:


> I am not convinced happiness _is_ possible in the sex starved marriage. Sex is such a fundamental part of our humanity, and a necessary component of emotional intimacy.
> 
> If your wife were, for example, horribly and permanently disabled, you might come to an inner acceptance of the end of your sex life, yet you would still have needs, urges, and frustrations. You would miss the sex even though you completely understand why.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. The premise that you can will yourself to happiness in a sexless marriage is faulty, I believe, except under certain circumstances as stated above. If your wife is willing but unable to have sex, I believe it is easier to accept that she does love you. 

But if she is able but unwilling, and doesn't tell you why, just doesn't want to, I think many men will come to the conclusion eventually that she doesn't really love them, at least not in the way a wife should love a husband.

Why do I say that? Because I feel that most men will feel unloved if a woman will not share her body. It is a part of a man's nature to feel that way. It is biology but many women don't understand that. 

So I agree that, with rare exceptions, men will not find happiness in a sexless marriage. It is like asking yourself to be happy in a marriage where you feel unloved. How is that possible? I also don't think it is possible for man to change this requirement he has for happiness because it is part of his nature. I still think that many women react with surprise when told that a man must have physical intimacy to be happy, that it is required for his emotional needs and happiness. It is true, incredibly true and I think almost every man will attest to that.


----------



## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

If you feel unloved you will be unhappy. 

There is a huge difference if this is due to a legit medical reproductive organ/genital problem or due to her just being super LD. There is a real difference.

If this is about her LD and she won't change then to me thats her cheating too....and you want just the sex (and fun) itself then you really should consider other outlets that you can easily keep secret and that that are not technically an emotional affair.....escorts, if you can afford it also consider the sugar daddy lifestyle...lots of sexy young women are available for that and they are often sweet and almost always used to dealing with married men....and many of them like sex too....

If this is about not feeling loved, you need to look at divorce or sublimate your human desire to be loved by your partner...(that takes a real saint to do that just to theoretically save your children).

What do I know? Well, I got divorced from a still sexually quite active marriage but because I didn't feel loved. 

I lost my daughter in the process (so far), so that is a devastating concern..but it was my daughters choice to hate me, not due to my ex-wife...., and I gained a wonderful new wife. 

At the moment, however, we are having a sexless evening tonight because we are both in some pain from too much sex this afternoon, morning, and the last 2 weeks of 2-3 times a day......

Not all women dissociate sex from love either. My wife needs to attention to feel loved just like I do....the problem with our sex life if any is now Im close to getting sex addicted.....(together 2 years so far)....but I realize I was sex addicted to my ex too, she on the other hand was not...





Married but not happy said:


> I agree with this. The premise that you can will yourself to happiness in a sexless marriage is faulty, I believe, except under certain circumstances as stated above. If your wife is willing but unable to have sex, I believe it is easier to accept that she does love you.
> 
> But if she is able but unwilling, and doesn't tell you why, just doesn't want to, I think many men will come to the conclusion eventually that she doesn't really love them, at least not in the way a wife should love a husband.
> 
> ...


----------



## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

fetishwife said:


> At the moment, however, we are having a sexless evening tonight because we are both in some pain from too much sex this afternoon, morning, and the last 2 weeks of 2-3 times a day......
> 
> Not all women dissociate sex from love either. My wife needs to attention to feel loved just like I do....the problem with our sex life if any is now Im close to getting sex addicted.....(together 2 years so far)....but I realize I was sex addicted to my ex too, she on the other hand was not...


But isn't this always the case in a new relationship/marriage? For the first 2-3 years at least?

I can remembering having sex at 10.30 am (in the morning), with the front-door closed, and friends turning up... and us pretending we just "weren't in" 

We were so into each other then!


----------



## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Married but not happy said:


> So I agree that, with rare exceptions, men will not find happiness in a sexless marriage. It is like asking yourself to be happy in a marriage where you feel unloved. How is that possible? I also don't think it is possible for man to change this requirement he has for happiness because it is part of his nature. I still think that many women react with surprise when told that a man must have physical intimacy to be happy, that it is required for his emotional needs and happiness. It is true, incredibly true and I think almost every man will attest to that.


I agree more with OP here. It makes a lot of sense to me....

* Expect nothing, anything you get is a bonus.
* At some point, even LD's desire will pop up.
* S/he (LD) will realise stretching too much could lead to divorce
* After years together, most partners prefer to avoid divorce.
* Agreeing to sex once in a way might be a small price to pay.
* My LD partner starts enjoying sex after awhile too.
* I've noticed she runs out of excuses quite often, and agrees.
* It's not enthusiastic sex, but still easier than scrounging on the streets.
* She may not make me feel loved, wanted but I get her to climax often.
* New 'tricks' like watching porn together turns her on quite a lot.
* Sometimes I think there's some switch which one needs to find


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

hubbydude said:


> So, you find happiness in being a source of unhappiness or discomfort to your wife? And do you expect that if and when the supernova or the torpedo hits, that your happiness will reach a pinnacle?



Not quite.

The torpedo is a practical matter or has practical reasons for being there. It's not a happiness implement..

Ignoring her is more of the same. The optimist in me wonders exactly how screwed up she is internally that she's willing to put up with such treatment... Curiosity, not happiness.


----------



## MYM1430 (Nov 7, 2011)

Marriage is giving up your own life. It is what we pour our love into with no reason to expect anything in return. I replace happiness with honor. I surrender desire for*duty. Passion must yield to principle.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

This is going to be very individualized. Happiness in a sex starved marriage would be impossible for me. I need sex to feel happy, content and fulfilled. Without it I would check out of the marriage because I wouldn't feel connected to my spouse. For others sex isn't as Important as other things. So it's on an individual scale and we all covet what is most Important to us.


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> This is going to be very individualized. Happiness in a sex starved marriage would be impossible for me. I need sex to feel happy, content and fulfilled. Without it I would check out of the marriage because I wouldn't feel connected to my spouse. For others sex isn't as Important as other things. So it's on an individual scale and we all covet what is most Important to us.


I think it would be worth questioning your assumption that you couldn't be happy without sex. Here's a thought......

If you ask someone to list the things they value most in the world, most people will list things like family, money, vacations, friends, maybe their pet or their most prized posesssion. But if you divide the things you value into "cause values" and "effect values" the things you value start to look different.

For example, you value your family because they give you a sense of belonging, of love, of purpose. Family is the cause, and a sense of belonging is the effect. You could achieve the same effect from something else. And in fact, people who don't have a stable family often do find other ways to meet their needs for a sense of belonging (sometimes in negative ways re gangs etc, and sometimes in positive ways).

If sex is a cause, what is the effect? It's feelings of love and connectedness. Feelings of being desireable, worthy and vivacious. Perhaps there are other ways to achieve these things other than sex. The power of sex is that it doesn't have any single effect, it makes you feel lots of amazing things at once, so perhaps it needs to be replaced with several other things to achieve some sense of happiness without it?

I don't know if any of that makes sense in the real world, but I'm starting to think it's worth trying.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MYM1430 said:


> Marriage is giving up your own life. It is what we pour our love into with no reason to expect anything in return. I replace happiness with honor. I surrender desire for*duty. Passion must yield to principle.



That sounds like the military


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MYM1430 said:


> Marriage is giving up your own life. It is what we pour our love into with no reason to expect anything in return. I replace happiness with honor. I surrender desire for*duty. Passion must yield to principle.


:scratchhead:

My wife made a number of promises to me in the wedding vows. She promised to "Love, Honor, and Cherish". I think that means something. She promised "To Have and to Hold", which means to have sex and to physically/emotionally comfort. She promised to do these things even in bad times, which means making an effort when all is not perfect.

Marriage creates a new entity but does not erase each individual.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,
There is no real substitute for intimacy. 

That's why I said what I what I said at the start. About respect.

If your partner respects you, they respect your feelings. If they do that, they make a good faith effort to be a good partner. 

This whole 'zero expectations' model for marriage is dishonest. You want to see how true that is: do nothing for your spouse's birthday or Mother's Day or both....





hubbydude said:


> I think it would be worth questioning your assumption that you couldn't be happy without sex. Here's a thought......
> 
> If you ask someone to list the things they value most in the world, most people will list things like family, money, vacations, friends, maybe their pet or their most prized posesssion. But if you divide the things you value into "cause values" and "effect values" the things you value start to look different.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bugged,
Can you link to or name the 3d to which you refer?



[/B]


Bugged said:


> what if they fail? OP does not want to divorce.
> There's a VERY long 3d about a LD husband..at page one wife is unhappy (even though they're having sex 3x week???let's ignore the unrealistic expectation for a second) and doesn't feel loved , he must do better, she keeps on nagging about sex. At the end of the 3d he has ED and is taking viagra, and they're in their 20's.
> 
> Sometimes people try and they fail, so what do you do? You throw it all away?
> To OP, I hope you find a way.


----------



## leon2100 (May 13, 2015)

great post!!!


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Bugged,
> 
> Can you link to or name the 3d to which you refer?
> 
> ...



And risk a ban? Come on MEM you know the thread.


----------



## sparc101 (Oct 21, 2013)

Excellent post. I feel like I am in a similar predicament. But, I am older than you and have been experiencing the lack of sex part for a longer period of time. Though, my sex has perhaps not been as seldom as yours (3-5 times per month).

An interesting experiment (if you were to be so inclined) would be to share this post with her. How would she respond? Does she know your feelings? Would she learn something? I would love to see that happen.

Thanks again,


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> HD,
> There is no real substitute for intimacy.
> 
> That's why I said what I what I said at the start. About respect.
> ...


I completely agree.

I think the challenge for the LD spouse though, is that the HD spouse isn't really asking them to simply "put out", we're asking them to "want" to put out. An LD spouse can respect their partners feelings and perform for them, but it's almost impossible to fake authenticity. Expecting an LD partner to perform regularly and enthusiastically is setting yourself up for failure.

That doesn't negate or invalidate your sense of grievance that they committed something to you in your marriage vows that they're now not giving you. You have every right to feel agrieved, to divorce, and pursue someone else. But are Fix It, Divorce, and Misery the only options for a sex-starved spouse? I'm hoping not.


----------



## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

brownmale said:


> But isn't this always the case in a new relationship/marriage? For the first 2-3 years at least?
> 
> I can remembering having sex at 10.30 am (in the morning), with the front-door closed, and friends turning up... and us pretending we just "weren't in"
> 
> We were so into each other then!


Maybe that will be the case. It was NOT true of my first marriage so its still new to me....my wife is very very attractive and a lot younger than me which keeps me pretty interested in her for sure. Not every woman starts out high drive so at least that is a good start. However, lots of HD people go LD overall (or only LD for their spouse.....) We have excellent communication about sex. I just wish she was not so jealous as I do nothing to make her jealous..., Im one one who should be jealous since so many men look at her and she could have anyone on the spot...

Anyway Im hijacking, but I dont think one can be happy if they dont feel their partner loves them and is attracted to them.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,

NOW we're talking. 

There's the mechanics, the spirit and then the gold standard - the passion. 

I go to church with M2 - have done for most of our marriage. 

Mechanics: I'm ready a few minutes early and dressed nice
Spirit: Smilng and in a good mood - before - during and after
Passion: oh - yeah there's that one little detail - I'm not Christian 

That is what it is - you can't be grinding on someone for how they FEEL deep down inside. Well you can - but they'll hate you for it. 







hubbydude said:


> I completely agree.
> 
> I think the challenge for the LD spouse though, is that the HD spouse isn't really asking them to simply "put out", we're asking them to "want" to put out. An LD spouse can respect their partners feelings and perform for them, but it's almost impossible to fake authenticity. Expecting an LD partner to perform regularly and enthusiastically is setting yourself up for failure.
> 
> That doesn't negate or invalidate your sense of grievance that they committed something to you in your marriage vows that they're now not giving you. You have every right to feel agrieved, to divorce, and pursue someone else. But are Fix It, Divorce, and Misery the only options for a sex-starved spouse? I'm hoping not.


----------



## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

hubbydude said:


> I think the challenge for the LD spouse though, is that the HD spouse isn't really asking them to simply "put out", we're asking them to "want" to put out.


I don't think we're asking our LD partners to "want to put out".

What we are asking for is:

* Just to put out and tolerate.
* To at least recognise our want... even if they don't fulfil.

If my partner just held me, gave me a brief massage, or let me touch her body and explained politely that she didn't feel like sex... maybe we could postpone it... that would be enough.

What rankles is when someone pours salt in your sexual wounds...

But this is a very interesting question. I'm sure a re-orientation of our expectations could help to change our frustration levels. Like those who opt to remain celebate in life... and sometimes manage it quite well.


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> HD,
> 
> NOW we're talking.
> 
> ...


Agreed again.

And to expand on your analogy for a moment. If it was important to your wife that her husband is a Christian, and you told her you were a Christian, and religion was something that was an ever-present part of your relationship, and you married and then she learned that you weren't really a Christian (or are no longer a Christian) she would likely feel agrieved and upset. She would view her marriage as falling short of her expectations and may struggle to find happiness. It may lead to a decline in your relationship overall and ultimately to divorce.

But again, are Conversion, Divorce or Misery her only options? I don't believe so. I believe it would be possible for her to appreciate that you make the effort inspite of your beliefs, that you do so out of love and respect for her, and that there may be other ways for you both to connect on a level sufficient for you both to be happy.

I guess I'm making your point for you. If my partner is unwilling to make the effort to have sex with me, out of love and respect for me, for our relationship, and for the vows we took together, then my ability to find happiness in spite of our lack of sex is going to be significantly more difficult. In fact, it requires me to ignore / rug-sweep / look beyond a glaring indication of disrespect / lack of love. Hmmmmm. A sobering dose of perspective to my otherwise optimistic nature.


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

brownmale said:


> I don't think we're asking our LD partners to "want to put out".
> 
> What we are asking for is:
> 
> ...


I disagree. In fact, the more my wife recognizes my want but fails to meet it, the worse I feel. She can no longer plead ignorance.



brownmale said:


> But this is a very interesting question. I'm sure a re-orientation of our expectations could help to change our frustration levels. Like those who opt to remain celebate in life... and sometimes manage it quite well.


Agreed.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,

Now that we've found common ground - lets wander the grounds for a bit. 

For a while it became obvious to me that M2 deeply resented me for not converting. 

I believed and still believe that going to Church with her (and the kids) and doing so with a good spirit - was as much as I was capable of. So when I realized she was resentful I hadn't 'converted' I stopped going to church entirely. 

Do you understand how normal that is? When your best efforts aren't good enough, it's fairly normal to feel both defeated and resentful. I felt BOTH. 

Now eventually we had a very honest conversation about religion. About how we both felt. And I resumed going to church with M2. 

Now I'll switch channels - from religion to sex. 

You know why M2 has sex with me? Aside from the obvious reasons like - it's important to me - she likes making me happy....

She doesn't have to lie. Doesn't have to pretend. 

I make it as good as I can for her. When we were younger and she was healthier - that was really good. 

Often it's not so good for her now. She doesn't have to pretend. 

And yes this makes for some very awkward moments. 






hubbydude said:


> Agreed again.
> 
> And to expand on your analogy for a moment. If it was important to your wife that her husband is a Christian, and you told her you were a Christian, and religion was something that was an ever-present part of your relationship, and you married and then she learned that you weren't really a Christian (or are no longer a Christian) she would likely feel agrieved and upset. She would view her marriage as falling short of her expectations and may struggle to find happiness. It may lead to a decline in your relationship overall and ultimately to divorce.
> 
> ...


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> HD,
> 
> Now that we've found common ground - lets wander the grounds for a bit.
> 
> ...


So you found happiness in your sex-starved marriage by:

a) accepting that your wife doesn't desire sex with you to the same extent that you desire it with her
b) her learning to the understand that sex is important to you and makes you happy
c) her making the effort to participate in the mechanics and the spirit of sex, without any pressure to actually need or want it
d) you lowering your expectations to the point where this is good enough for you

Is that all correct? Do you think you could have achieved happinness without your wife contributing through b and c?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,
So umm - M2 always knew that sex was important. Always. 

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression our marriage was sex starved. It isn't. A couple times a week - most weeks. 

It is true that I have a higher drive. And true that I fully and unreservedly accept M2 as is. I don't 'accept her' so she'll have sex with me. 

I'm fairly certain one of the reasons it's so easy for her to do so - despite her current lack of lust - is because feeling fully accepted is kind of a special thing. 

I happily do a lot of 'all about you' stuff for M2. Always have, always will. 

Now 'C' is kind of a huge deal here. I'll just tell you what I tell M2:
I wish I could do for you what you do for me. 

And her response to that is: In your own way - you do. 

And you sure saved the best for last. 

(D) Lowered expectation - well it doesn't feel that way to me. 

Here's the thing - being with M2 makes me feel good. And I know that's also true in reverse. Happy - peaceful. I love the telepathy - lite thing we have. Never had that with anyone else. Makes me happy to do nice things for her. Make her laugh. 

Used to be we had sex almost every single day. But we weren't this connected. Now - we're connected every day - even though most days we don't have sex. 



QUOTE=hubbydude;12644474]So you found happiness in your sex-starved marriage by:

a) accepting that your wife doesn't desire sex with you to the same extent that you desire it with her
b) her learning to the understand that sex is important to you and makes you happy
c) her making the effort to participate in the mechanics and the spirit of sex, without any pressure to actually need or want it
d) you lowering your expectations to the point where this is good enough for you

Is that all correct? Do you think you could have achieved happinness without your wife contributing through b and c?[/QUOTE]


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

MEM, I think where your church analogy falls down, it's that your not being a Christian is unlikely to be interpreted by your wife as being reflective of her in any significant way. Whereas a spouse not wanting to have sex with you is inherently personal and asks questions of your self-esteem and your sense of self-worth that are difficult to answer.

If your point was that a lack of sex in marriage is indicative of a lack of love and / or respect, then I'm starting to think you may be correct. But there are different kinds of love. Does my wife feel romantic love for me? No, I don't think so  Does she love me? Yes. Our lack of sex is indicative of her lack of romantic love, not necessarily an absence of love alltogether.

Edit: I recognize that romantic love is what separates lovers from friends, and that I didn't marry my wife because I wanted to be her friend


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

So, to summarise what I've learned so far......

a) my wife's lack of interest in sex tells me that she does not feel romantic love for me
b) other things she does suggests she does love me in other ways
c) I'm still not convinced that I can't be happy in our sex-starved, romantic-love starved marriage
d) but given that my wife understands how our lack of sex makes me feel, how regular sex would make me feel, and yet still doesn't make much effort (she makes some effort, but not much), makes my goal of finding happiness in my sex-starved marriage all the more challenging

If a lack of romantic love is the root cause, and a lack of sex is the manifestation of it, what can possibly replace romantic love? What other things are capable of generating some of the same effects / feelings as romantic love?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,
What could be a bigger deal than believing your spouse isn't doing everything possible to spend eternity with you? 

There's nothing bigger than that. It's kind of bone on bone. All I say to her is that I hope there's an afterlife and if there is I'm looking forward to spending it together. 

And yes - M2 believes that if I loved her enough I'd convert. 

-------
As for HD2 - I have no idea why she avoids sex with you. 

The thing is - she shouldn't be afraid to TELL you why. 

Years back I let myself go. My weight became an issue. Whenever she saw me on the scale, M2 asked me how much I weighed. 






hubbydude said:


> MEM, I think where your church analogy falls down, it's that your not being a Christian is unlikely to be interpreted by your wife as being reflective of her in any significant way. Whereas a spouse not wanting to have sex with you is inherently personal and asks questions of your self-esteem and your sense of self-worth that are difficult to answer.
> 
> If your point was that a lack of sex in marriage is indicative of a lack of love and / or respect, then I'm starting to think you may be correct. But there are different kinds of love. Does my wife feel romantic love for me? No, I don't think so  Does she love me? Yes. Our lack of sex is indicative of her lack of romantic love, not necessarily an absence of love alltogether.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,
You want to have a better marriage - try some radical honesty. 

For instance most of the time I believe - M2 is driven by the desire to make me happy. 

But being radically realistic there are likely times when she is humoring me in the spirit of monogamy. 

I believe she would say that - asking for monogamy is cool, demanding near celibacy is not...






hubbydude said:


> So, to summarise what I've learned so far......
> 
> a) my wife's lack of interest in sex tells me that she does not feel romantic love for me
> b) other things she does suggests she does love me in other ways
> ...


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

hubbydude said:


> I think it would be worth questioning your assumption that you couldn't be happy without sex. Here's a thought......
> 
> If you ask someone to list the things they value most in the world, most people will list things like family, money, vacations, friends, maybe their pet or their most prized posesssion. But if you divide the things you value into "cause values" and "effect values" the things you value start to look different.
> 
> ...


Part of aging is comfort in knowing oneself. And I know myself well. In a relationship I need to feel emotionally connected, desirable,vulnerable. I have only ever achieved these things in a committed relationship where intimacy is a priority. In the absence of intimacy we are just friends and roommates....not even close to the same connection. I have never found an alternative to it and never want to. Sex within a marriage is a absolute must, top of the need (yes needs), priority. Other people vary but as I stated I know myself well enough to know that for me true connection only comes with intimacy.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Wolf,

QFT

This is why it's comical when a partner simultaneously pretends that it's not important and yet absolutely demands monogamy. 

The whole premise for monogamy is that sex is emotionally powerful. 

Sexlessness is unlikely in a marital environment of radical honesty. 





Wolf1974 said:


> Part of aging is comfort in knowing oneself.  And I know myself well. In a relationship I need to feel emotionally connected, desirable,vulnerable. I have only ever achieved these things in a committed relationship where intimacy is a priority. In the absence of intimacy we are just friends and roommates....not even close to the same connection. I have never found an alternative to it and never want to. Sex within a marriage is a absolute must, top of the need (yes needs), priority. Other people vary but as I stated I know myself well enough to know that for me true connection only comes with intimacy.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,

Conversation could look like this: 

The last few times we connected, what were the BEST parts of it for you? Before, during and after? 

What were the worst parts (before, during and after)?

She has two choices throughout this talk: honest direct answers or openly telling you that she's afraid to answer for fear of upsetting you....




hubbydude said:


> So, to summarise what I've learned so far......
> 
> a) my wife's lack of interest in sex tells me that she does not feel romantic love for me
> b) other things she does suggests she does love me in other ways
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The third choice is to gaslight the living heck out of the guy, then claim innocence and carry on as usual.

The fourth choice is to visibly get upset and stomp out of the room five words into the talk.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John is correct. 

And you ought prepare for gas lighting and tantrums. 

Thing is gas lighting doesn't work at all if you calmly say: 

What you are saying is very different/the polar opposite of what I'm seeing. 

As to hysterical cries of - your calling me a liar 

The answer is: no I'm simply pointing out a giant gap between what I'm seeing and what you are saying. 

The goal isn't to win or to agitate - just say what's true and stay calm. 




john117 said:


> The third choice is to gaslight the living heck out of the guy, then claim innocence and carry on as usual.
> 
> The fourth choice is to visibly get upset and stomp out of the room five words into the talk.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,

Let me revise that earlier comment. 

Gas lighting - is typically driven by a fear of what will happen if someone says what's true. 

So - retraction: don't say I'm pointing out a giant gap between what your saying and what I'm seeing.

Instead give her two choices - framed in a non threatening - non judgmental tone. 

Like so:

I know this stuff is hard, maybe even scary to talk about. Maybe your afraid of what I'll do if you just say exactly what's on your mind. 

For us to succeed as a married couple we need to resist the urge to sugar coat or avoid. If you are too anxious to answer a question you can take the 5th - temporarily. I can accept this happening gradually. 

For my part, I'll do my best not to be defensive or difficult if I hear things that are painful. Gradually I'm hoping you'll trust me enough to say what you really think and feel. 






MEM11363 said:


> John is correct.
> 
> And you ought prepare for gas lighting and tantrums.
> 
> ...


----------



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> ...
> I know this stuff is hard, maybe even scary to talk about. Maybe your afraid of what I'll do if you just say exactly what's on your mind.
> 
> For us to succeed as a married couple we need to resist the urge to sugar coat or avoid. If you are too anxious to answer a question you can take the 5th - temporarily. I can accept this happening gradually.
> ...


This is very good on a number of levels. The goal of such a conversation is presumably to create an environment of non-judgemental openness and honesty, which is an inherently positive thing.

This is something that would be an essential part in fixing a sex-starved marriage and I'm guessing is also an essential part in finding happiness within a sex-starved marriage (assumption: understanding the source of the lack of sex is more likely to contribute to happiness than unhappiness).

So, if there was a manual for people like me who wanted to find happiness inspite of their sex-starved marriage, a first step is to create a non-judgemental environment of openness and honesty where the lack of sex in the marriage can be discussed and explored relatively comfortably by husband and wife. (Important side note is that it's important to recognize that such improvements in communication could lead ultimately to fixing a sex-starved marriage, but that you should not _expect_ it to do so).

Awesome, we're making progress


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Absolutely and unreservedly agree with this*

And if you don't mind I would like to point something out. When I began to respond to your thread I had absolutely no idea we would reach this conclusion. 

Note what happened. I kept challenging you and frankly you kept challenging me. The goal of said challenges was to find the truth. Not to offend. Not to win. Not even to avoid losing. 








hubbydude said:


> This is very good on a number of levels. The goal of such a conversation is presumably to create an environment of non-judgemental openness and honesty, which is an inherently positive thing.
> 
> This is something that would be an essential part in fixing a sex-starved marriage and I'm guessing is also an essential part in finding happiness within a sex-starved marriage (assumption: understanding the source of the lack of sex is more likely to contribute to happiness than unhappiness).
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

One more thing. 

You really want to make this work - you are going to have to become bi lingual. 

Almost every guy I know who's got a high level of language proficiency - has no idea when to switch to the NVC - non verbal channel. 

NVC fluency is a core marital skill. If your wife is average in this area, that makes her more than twice as good at it as you are. 

There's a lot of stuff that is way better done via NVC, than in words. 





hubbydude said:


> This is very good on a number of levels. The goal of such a conversation is presumably to create an environment of non-judgemental openness and honesty, which is an inherently positive thing.
> 
> This is something that would be an essential part in fixing a sex-starved marriage and I'm guessing is also an essential part in finding happiness within a sex-starved marriage (assumption: understanding the source of the lack of sex is more likely to contribute to happiness than unhappiness).
> 
> ...


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> Look on the bright side. Being 'married' to a roommate or a sibling can be liberating in your day to day life. You just don't have to worry as about that other person as much, don't have to check in with them as much, don't have self edit every thought every word because it would likely piss them off. It's like being divorced and not parting with half your stuff.


This is what I was thinking too. If you lose all expectations of sex with your spouse, you stop doing all those things that you think are going to get you sex. You know, those things that make the stars align perfectly. Stopping those things can be very freeing and with that freedom can come some sort of happiness.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> This is what I was thinking too. If you lose all expectations of sex with your spouse, you stop doing all those things that you think are going to get you sex. You know, those things that make the stars align perfectly. Stopping those things can be very freeing and with that freedom can come some sort of happiness.



Plus you can treat them the way you should, without - lolz - ulterior motives....


----------



## committed_guy (Nov 22, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Gas lighting - is typically driven by a fear of what will happen if someone says what's true.


Wow I didn't know there was a term for this. 

This is what I experienced from my wife while we were in counseling. Like an attorney she only presented the facts that made her side look favorable to gain the the approval of the counselor so that they could tell me I'm wrong. I stopped going shortly after that.

I never thought to consider that a form of abuse. That hit me hard just now.


----------

