# My fiance called me a sl*t and argued in public!



## HannahL (Aug 24, 2013)

My fiancé and I have been together 2yrs and recently became engaged. My finace is a police officer and last night he was working nights and I decided to go out with the girls since I hadn't had a night out with them in weeks, He ended up at a club in the area my fiancé covers and after the bar closed he was working there to clear the area and I was talking randomly to some guy that kept asking me about my best friend but was too shy to talk to her himself, My fiance came over to me and pulled me aside asking what the f**k was I playing at? and that I was acting like a sl*t, Long story short I pushed him away and we started having an argument in public, He was in uniform and was shouting back at me so his colleagues who I also know told him to calm down and walk away, They eventually calmed him down and I just walked home alone crying. The next day he came home, apologized & said that he shouldn't have acted like that but it killed him seeing me with another guy, He told me that he cant imagine his life without me and him and that without me he has absolutely nothing and kept telling me how much he loves me etc! I love him so much but I feel very cold towards him all day. How do I handle and move past this?

*Troll Post -Amp*


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How physical was he with you when he pulled you aside?

Did he know that you were going out with girlfriends?

Do you go club/bar hopping often without him?

Is this the first time he's acted jealous and/or reacted in such anger?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Don't you mean your ex-fiance?  Nasty name, accusation and hands-on behavior gets him eliminated from potential husband material.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> Don't you mean your ex-fiance? Nasty name, accusation and hands-on behavior gets him eliminated from potential husband material.


That's what I'm thinking. The only excuse that might hold up is if she constantly goes out with her girlfriends picking up on guys. Then he'd have some thing to be concerned about and this incident might be the straw that broke the camel's back. And if it is, he should just dump her.

When something like this happens in a relationship... it's usually over.


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## whowouldhavethought (Jun 15, 2013)

HannahL said:


> My fiancé and I have been together 2yrs and recently became engaged. My finace is a police officer and last night he was working nights and I decided to go out with the girls since I hadn't had a night out with them in weeks, He ended up at a club in the area my fiancé covers and after the bar closed he was working there to clear the area and I was talking randomly to some guy that kept asking me about my best friend but was too shy to talk to her himself, My fiance came over to me and pulled me aside asking what the f**k was I playing at? and that I was acting like a sl*t, Long story short I pushed him away and we started having an argument in public, He was in uniform and was shouting back at me so his colleagues who I also know told him to calm down and walk away, They eventually calmed him down and I just walked home alone crying. The next day he came home, apologized & said that he shouldn't have acted like that but it killed him seeing me with another guy, He told me that he cant imagine his life without me and him and that without me he has absolutely nothing and kept telling me how much he loves me etc! I love him so much but I feel very cold towards him all day. How do I handle and move past this?


He is a police officer. Losing his cool while in uniform is a definite no-no. It is a firing offense.

Sorry but I would remove him from marriage potential.

WWHT


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Don't you mean your ex-fiance? Nasty name, accusation and hands-on behavior gets him eliminated from potential husband material.


This.

There were other red flags too. His bold statement about how he has nothing without you sound a bit over the top and controlling to me.


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## Fleur de Cactus (Apr 6, 2013)

I would not jump quickly and judge him, whether he is wearing uniform or not, he has feelings and can be jealous like other people. The question is , why was he jealous? what pushed him to call you names? why he did not trust you being with that man? He did not know where you were and who you hang with when he is not there?


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## HannahL (Aug 24, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> How physical was he with you when he pulled you aside?


He pulled me by the arm.



EleGirl said:


> Did he know that you were going out with girlfriends?


He knew I was meeting up with the girls and i'd been texting him when I first went out but I didn't hear back from him before we decided to go to a club



EleGirl said:


> Do you go club/bar hopping often without him?


No, We mostly go out together or together with friends. He definitely has more boys nights out than I do with the girls.



EleGirl said:


> Is this the first time he's acted jealous and/or reacted in such anger?


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Guys get jealous. It's in our nature. Embedded in our gene code.

How old are you? And him.


This will rile most members her....but I would give him a pass.

BUT!!!!

If and only if he never speaks to you like that again!!!! Ever!!!

And the only way that is going to happen if you know and stick to your boundaries. AND!! You follow through with the consequences if he pulls that again.

This makes me recall of a time when I was at a quaint party. One guy was there with his fiancé. Cute couple. He was getting more than drunk. And getting a little belligerent with his fiancé. Nothing too serious like your post, but he was starting to chatter..."your my woman! You'll agree with everything I say! I'll put you in your place woman! I'm the man here!". And then he would laugh towards his friends, like he was being all cool shat!

I was close enough to hear when she grabbed his arm and pulled him close....

"honey....I'm getting a little tipsy myself right now...,and feeling like I could go home with you and have some incredible fun tonight. But...at the rate your going with the tone your taking with me...you'll be lucky to end up just sleeping in the doghouse tonight."

WoW!!! That woman had boundaries! And she didn't take no crap! 

Needless to say, I've never seen someone go from potential ******* to full on polite in less time.


Stick to your boundaries woman! Maybe he had a lapse, maybe he didn't. If this is chronic, then....I guess you have some major decisions you should make before your vows.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Takes a certain kind of woman to marry a cop.
Takes a certain kind of guy to be a cop.
I considered the trade but decided I would like it too much to play by the rules.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I wouldn't go clubbing with single friends whilst in a committed relationship, OP, and wouldn't expect my SO to do so either. However, I wouldn't remain engaged to a man who called me a s!ut, laid hands on me and caused a scene like that in public.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

HannahL said:


> He told me that he cant imagine his life without me and him and that *without me he has absolutely nothing* and kept telling me how much he loves me etc!


I'm with Mavash on this one. THIS is, in my opinion, the most WORRISOME thing he said!

Between the uncontrollable jealousy (you were TALKING with a man: not feeling him up, not putting your tongue down his throat or your hand down his pants...TALKING on a public street! WTF?!?), the man-handling, and the name-calling....the fact that he believes he would be NOTHING without you makes me think he would be one of those dangerous 'if *I* can't have you, nobody can' type of guys.

If you break it off with him (and I believe you should), be very careful! If this man doesn't trust you after 2 years and wearing his ring, then he doesn't have a very high opinion of you! If he still thinks you're a cheater after accepting his ring, then you saying "I do" isn't going to make him believe in you and trust you either. HE has serious TRUST issues!


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## HannahL (Aug 24, 2013)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> I'm with Mavash on this one. THIS is, in my opinion, the most WORRISOME thing he said!
> 
> Between the uncontrollable jealousy (you were TALKING with a man: not feeling him up, not putting your tongue down his throat or your hand down his pants...TALKING on a public street! WTF?!?), the man-handling, and the name-calling....the fact that he believes he would be NOTHING without you makes me think he would be one of those dangerous 'if *I* can't have you, nobody can' type of guys.
> 
> If you break it off with him (and I believe you should), be very careful! If this man doesn't trust you after 2 years and wearing his ring, then he doesn't have a very high opinion of you! If he still thinks you're a cheater after accepting his ring, then you saying "I do" isn't going to make him believe in you and trust you either. HE has serious TRUST issues!


Over the past few days I have started to think more about that, As far as I can see I have never given him any reason to doubt me, Like I have said all I want is him, I truly love him. I have even asked him if and why he doesn't trust me and he ignores my question and tries to lead us to have sex or gets hot headed with the question I've asked him!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Sooo why is he still your fiance?

If you marry him, it's on you. He's showing you who he is. Listen.


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## ShyEnglishman (Aug 23, 2013)

We don't get the full context of the situation on here.

You were talking to some random guy. Is it possible that it could have looked from the outside like you were flirting?

Sorry, had to ask, it is VERY relevant.

If it looked like you were flirting, then it is quite easy to see how he panicked. It doesn't justify him dragging you by the arm or calling you names, but it might go some way to explaining his feelings. I would call that mitigating circumstances. Not an excuse, but something to take into account.

If you honestly believe it would not, to any reasonable person, look like you were flirting, then no mitigating circumstances.

Either way, if he he said and did what you say he said and did, then sorry, but I think marrying him would be a slightly silly idea. He has shown himself to be over-possessive and judgemental of you. I knew a girl when I was a teenager who married a guy like that. It ruined her life.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Omg. Please tell me you're not saying it's ok for her to excuse this and "understand" his behavior because she may have been flirting. NO. Her actions DID NOT CAUSE him to freak out. He chose to freak out. He has impulse control and communication issues. She should NOT be marrying someone whom she has to double think everything she does IN CASE he may THINK she's doing something wrong. EFF THAT.

IMO, clubs and bars really have no business in one's life after you decide to become married. No joke. It's just drama and meat market bullcrap.

I learned in Sociology classes (My major) that cops and military have the highest rate of domestic violence.


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## ShyEnglishman (Aug 23, 2013)

that_girl said:


> Omg. Please tell me you're not saying it's ok for her to excuse this and "understand" his behavior because she may have been flirting. NO. Her actions DID NOT CAUSE him to freak out. He chose to freak out. He has impulse control and communication issues. She should NOT be marrying someone whom she has to double think everything she does IN CASE he may THINK she's doing something wrong. EFF THAT.
> 
> IMO, clubs and bars really have no business in one's life after you decide to become married. No joke. It's just drama and meat market bullcrap.
> 
> I learned in Sociology classes (My major) that cops and military have the highest rate of domestic violence.


Are you saying it is k to pass judgement conclusively on a man that has not been given the opportunity to tell you his side of the story, and without knowing ANY of the material facts about the one incident we've been told about from only a single source, in a few lines of text?

You can establish the full facts from that without even asking a question?

All I can say is I'm impressed. That sociology course you've done has given you superhuman abilities.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

ShyEnglishman said:


> Are you saying it is k to pass judgement conclusively on a man that has not been given the opportunity to tell you his side of the story, and without knowing ANY of the material facts about the one incident we've been told about from only a single source, in a few lines of text?
> 
> You can establish the full facts from that without even asking a question?
> 
> All I can say is I'm impressed. That sociology course you've done has given you superhuman abilities.


Are you serious :scratchhead:

I've been married for 23 years, together 26 years and my husband has NEVER called me a sl*t or anything even remotely like it. He has also never man handled me...not once! 

It's about as unloving and unattractive as a man can get.
She isn't even married to him yet ..... I say she should reconsider the idea of spending THE REST OF HER LIFE with.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> I wouldn't go clubbing with single friends whilst in a committed relationship, OP, and wouldn't expect my SO to do so either. However, I wouldn't remain engaged to a man who called me a s!ut, laid hands on me and caused a scene like that in public.


This^

Him going out with the boys and you going out with the girls is not each of you going out with the opposite sex is it?

Lets get real. And you admit you do not usually do this. Sooo, this was out of character and it surprised him that you were being chatted up in a bar. He had reason to feel some amount of jelousy. He felt betrayed.

Did he handle this right? Hell no. Calling you a sl*t? Over the top and worthy of ending the reltionship IMO. You dodged a bullet. If he really thinks that then he needs to let you go as well.

I think you both would be best to break this engagement off until you guys can get your boundaries straight and you can be satisfied he is not unduly jealous or possibly violent.

Red Flags all around on both sides. 

I mean we understand why he was upset if he thinks you are out with the girls and he percieves you with a guy.

We can jump to the conclusion that his reaction to this is just the tip of the iceburg for bigger issues. But we have only a bit of information. There is always more to know that is left out.

This IS an example where something may indeed be innocent but the peception of infidelity poisons the relationship. I do understand also that many people can not see more than one thing at a time.

Oh and I get that his behavior is the biggest Red Flag folks. But indeed no good comes with acting single when one is really not, even with the best of intentions.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Super human abilities?

 

Maybe all women and men everywhere who are treated like this (Names and being handled) should excuse their mates because they should understand where it's coming from.

Give me a break.

That's just how abusers like it though. They like to create turmoil in the other person's mind so that person doesn't know what they feel or if they should feel it in the first place.

If your daughter's fiance did this to her, would you want to hear his side? Probably not.

Sure there are two sides. I see one side and give my advice. If it was my child, I'd really have to tell her to look at it all. He's already name calling and grabbing her BEFORE marriage. It isn't a wonder what marriage could be like.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

ShyEnglishman said:


> Are you saying it is k to pass judgement conclusively on a man that has not been given the opportunity to tell you his side of the story, and without knowing ANY of the material facts about the one incident we've been told about from only a single source, in a few lines of text?
> 
> You can establish the full facts from that without even asking a question?
> 
> All I can say is I'm impressed. That sociology course you've done has given you superhuman abilities.


And are *YOU* saying that it's o.k. for _*HER FIANCE*_ to pass judgment (calling her a 'slvt') _on his fiancé _when SHE hasn't been given an opportunity to tell HER side of the story???

While it may have _appeared_ to him that she was 'flirting', he didn't have any _FACTS_. He flew off the handle based on his FEELINGS, which weren't rooted in the TRUTH. 

Wow. Just. Wow... 

Your double-standards don't impress me.

Vega


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

waiwera said:


> Are you serious :scratchhead:
> 
> I've been married for 23 years, together 26 years and my husband has NEVER called me a sl*t or anything even remotely like it. He has also never man handled me...not once!
> 
> ...


I have never called my wife any name whatsoever and never physically tried to control her. Ever.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

And just the fact that he chooses the word Slvt. How respectful. Was she effing the guy at the bar? I dunno.

Again, I'll stand with my opinion that clubs and bars hold no service to anyone engaged or married (without their mate). It's just trouble.


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

I wouldn't base my relationship on what some people said from here. You guys have been together for a while and there are probably more positives than negatives, I would assume. I mean you love the guy, right? Unless this happens every other day or once a month, you need to let it go. 

Did you end up in the hospital? Did you bleed, bruise, etc? Since when did grabbing someone by the arm become so demeaning? Seriously, you are going to through away everything you have with this guy because he grabbed your arm and called you a name? 

From a guys point of view.. we all here the stories of girls nights out. As single guys, we all have met married women on thier girls night out. You are at a meat market. I mean, if you were looking all sexy talking to some random dude (good looking makes it worse), what do you think someone is going to think? Why are you even talking to him? Why is he able to approach you and not your friend? Were you more inviting looking? And besides, I doubt any of these women on here would turn a head to their husband all dressed up at night talking to a sexy looking girl at a club. Please, we all know you women would go ape sh1t.

And besides, it seems like your guy is completely in love with you. The real question for you is, do you rather have a guy that obsesses about you and would be crushed if you left or do you rather have a guy that doesn't give a sh1t about what you are doing and would not skip a beat if you left. There is an in between but they are rare in today's society.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

wise said:


> I wouldn't base my relationship on what some people said from here. You guys have been together for a while and there are probably more positives than negatives, I would assume. I mean you love the guy, right? Unless this happens every other day or once a month, you need to let it go.
> 
> Did you end up in the hospital? Did you bleed, bruise, etc? Since when did grabbing someone by the arm become so demeaning? Seriously, you are going to through away everything you have with this guy because he grabbed your arm and called you a name?
> 
> ...


Even guys who beat their wives in this cycle of behavior can be said to love thier wives. No he did not beat her. But he was very disrespctful and called her sl*t in public. A dealbreaker. He grabbed her. Not cool at all.

Sorry I have seen plenty of abusive guys. Even had a .357 in ones face. You do not wait for the hospital. You do not allow fundamental boundaries to be crossed. This is how he behaves and they are only engaged.

Guys who must physically manhandle women to feel in control are not real men at all. They are pitiful. The cycle of violence in battered wives syndome is an ugly thing. The violence comes first and then the flowers and I love yous. So now she did not end up in the freaking hospital.. But that is not the boundary. No one should accept disrespect. No one. Now is this totally out of character and not what he is about? She must decide. But typically it is a cycle of abuse, apology and forgiveness. Not healthy. 

Off you go. LOL. Wise guy.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

You don't end up in a hospital from being called names.

But the damage of those names is just as damaging.

Just look at your relationship, OP. Look at how he's handling the aftermath of it all as well. If he's already doing this and you allow it, it won't get better. Things like this tend to get worse. He already thought it was ok to call you a slvt. Is that was he thinks of you? Hm. Something to think about before you marry him.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Domestic violence against women: Recognize patterns, seek help - MayoClinic.com

There you go. So far he's on his way. 

My STBX and I have been through the RINGER together. Still are going through it. He's never called me out of name or put his hand on me in any way.


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

Dude, he grabbed her arm. That is not manhandling. Police grab people by the arm all day.. what do you think his natural instinct is? Just because he did that doesn't make him an automatic woman killer. Not every guy that has grabbed his wife by the arm ends up putting her in the hospital sometimes down the road. Yes, it happens, but none of us know what kind of history this guy has. The fact that he's a cop already means he has no prior charges of DV, murder, mental illnesses, etc etc. 

This was a heat of the moment and it happens. He did not punch her, slap her, pull her by the hair.. nothing. I grab to the arm.. big deal. 

The OP is here to vent her story, show her love for him and how to get past this, not how to break up with him. Some of you people say it's a deal breaker for you but I highly doubt that.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Wow. Some people have demented minds. 

"It wasn't a punch so it's ok"

If the OP felt threatened by it, it's a problem. It's not up to us to decide what she can tolerate in her marriage/relationship. Obviously she didn't like it or she'd not be posting this, she'd be hanging out with him, and things would be fine.

That's like saying 'Oh he didn't leave a bruise when he grabbed you, so it's ok, even if you felt scared, etc."

No. But it's her choice. I just wouldn't be so shocked if it turned into more later.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

So. Police and fiance are the same?

A policeman has never grabbed me by the arm...they grab criminals or people of suspect. So that's the same as a fiance grabbing his fiancee's arm? Lame. Military carry machine guns and weapons, i wouldn't want my husband to have those in the home. Not ok.

If the OP is ok with it though, then awesome.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

wise said:


> I wouldn't base my relationship on what some people said from here. You guys have been together for a while and there are probably more positives than negatives, I would assume. I mean you love the guy, right? Unless this happens every other day or once a month, you need to let it go.


In abusive relationships, there are usually many more 'positives' than 'negatives'. But that doesn't matter. What matters is the _quality_ of the negatives; not just the quantity. My partner gets ONE SHOT to treat me with respect. Putting his hands on me in anger, out of irrational jealousy, without knowing the FACTS, is reason enough for me to end the relationship...no matter how long we've been together. 



> Did you end up in the hospital? Did you bleed, bruise, etc? Since when did grabbing someone by the arm become so demeaning? Seriously, you are going to through away everything you have with this guy because he grabbed your arm and called you a name?


It's apparent that you have no idea what domestic violence and abuse is. A person doesn't have to end up in a hospital, bleeding, with broken bones or bruised in order to be in an "abusive" relationship. Shoving, pushing, kicking, hitting, pulling someone's hair, spitting, slapping, biting, pinching and punching is all _abusive_. Touching anyone _in anger _is abusive. 

She would not be 'throwing everything they had away' _*ONLY*_ because he grabbed her and called her a vile name. She would be doing it because he demonstrated his abusive _mindset_. He obviously believes that it's o.k. for him to react violently without thinking; to react to his irrational feelings without confronting his own thinking; that his 'feelings' are more important than finding out what the truth is. I mean, what' next? Is he going to punch her in the arm because she asked a man for the time? 



> From a guys point of view


Oh boy, here we go. You can only speak for _yourself_. You can not speak for ALL 'guys' because not ALL guys think like you! You would have done better if you wrote, "From ONE guys' point of view..." or "Being a guy, from *my* point of view". Contrary to popular opinion, ALL 'guys' don't think alike!



> I mean, if you were looking all sexy talking to some random dude (good looking makes it worse), what do you think someone is going to think?


Well, if *I* saw her "looking all sexy", talking to some dude, I can tell you that I DEFINITELY would NOT have jumped to any conclusions that she was cheating on her boyfriend or trying to pick up some 'random dude'. I have this quirky thing about myself, that I don't like jumping to conclusions. I'd rather discover the TRUTH than to have to apologize later on for my false judgments! 



> Why are you even talking to him?


She already explained 'why' and, it was a valid reason. 



> Why is he able to approach you and not your friend? Were you more inviting looking?


That's a question that you should be asking HIM; not HER! She's not a mind-reader!



> And besides, it seems like your guy is completely in love with you.


Since when is grabbing someone's arm and calling them a 'slvt' a sign of 'love'? Sorry, but his hostility is a MAJOR RED FLAG of some more serious issues that _he_ has. 



> The real question for you is, do you rather have a guy that *obsesses* about you and would be crushed if you left or do you rather have a guy that doesn't give a sh1t about what you are doing and would not skip a beat if you left.


If a guy is 'obsessing' about me, it shows that he's mentally unstable. Obsession is NOT 'love', as many (but not ALL, thank God!) may think.

Vega


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

Hey, if she wants to leave because she felt threatened, then more power to her. But that doesn't seem to be the issue. She didn't state that she needs a way out.. she wants to know how to get past this, emotionally. You people are only making this girl more scared of her soon to be H when none of you have no idea who he truly is. This guy risks his life to protect innocent people from criminals. 

The problem here is that there is no communication and boundaries set. The only way to get past that is to demand a one on one discussing how that effected you and what needs to be changed about your social lives, etc. or this can't continue. Talking through this issue you have now is the only way to get through it to move on.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> So now she did not end up in the freaking hospital.. *But that is not the boundary. *


AMEN!! This should be tattooed on the forehead of EVERY MAN AND WOMAN, lol!!! The 'boundary' is not allowing the FIRST sign of disrespect in the first place.

Oh...and simply _TALKING_ to a man is not a sign of 'disrespect'. 

Vega


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

wise said:


> This guy risks his life to protect innocent people from criminals.


So did Drew Peterson...


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

No, simply talking to a man is not disrespectful. But at 2 in the morning or whenever clubs close in her area, your fiancee talking to a man on the street does not look good is anyone's EYES, I don't give a sh1t how many of you say otherwise. Cops have a hard time getting everyone out of the area so it becomes stressful already for him and then to see the girl he loves standing there with another guy. We don't know if they were smiling, laughing because if she was at least tipsy, I'd assume some kind of smile on her face as this guy is talking to her about her friend. I don't see anything wrong with grabbing her arm to see wtf is going on. 

This guy could have done something to her by using her friend as a decoy, seeing how everyone here likes to assume things. It was the wrong time and the wrong place and if she was a reasonable person, she could be able to look at the scenario and understand his state of mind.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Omg. Please tell me you're not saying it's ok for her to excuse this and "understand" his behavior because she may have been flirting. NO. Her actions DID NOT CAUSE him to freak out. He chose to freak out. He has impulse control and communication issues. She should NOT be marrying someone whom she has to double think everything she does IN CASE he may THINK she's doing something wrong. EFF THAT.
> 
> IMO, clubs and bars really have no business in one's life after you decide to become married. No joke. It's just drama and meat market bullcrap.
> 
> *I learned in Sociology classes (My major) that cops and military have the highest rate of domestic violence.*


Both high-stress dangerous careers that involve violence and the need to maintain strict discipline, keeping your emotions in check. If a person does not have strong coping skills, at some point they may lash out verbally or physically or find other means to cope, such as addiction.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

wise said:


> No, simply talking to a man is not disrespectful. But at 2 in the morning or whenever clubs close in her area, your fiancee talking to a man on the street *does not look good is anyone's EYES*, I don't give a sh1t how many of you say otherwise.


You're judging what others are thinking based on what YOU would think. Not everyone thinks like you...



> Cops have a hard time getting everyone out of the area so it becomes stressful already for him and then to see the girl he loves standing there with another guy


.

Again, she was TALKING to the guy. She wasn't 'cozying' up to him or 'hanging all over him'. She was _only_ _TALKING_ to him. He had absolutely no reason to call her a 'slvt' or to grab her by her arm and to treat her like she's a 'criminal', especially in public! 



> We don't know if they were smiling, laughing because if she was at least tipsy, I'd assume some kind of smile on her face as this guy is talking to her about her friend. *I don't see anything wrong with grabbing her arm to see wtf is going on*.


Why couldn't he simply _ask_ her without being angry and without _touching_ her in anger? He has no idea if there's anything to be angry about!



> This guy could have done something to her by using her friend as a decoy, seeing how everyone here likes to assume things.


Yes, he could. But until we KNOW what the truth is, then why make a NEGATIVE assumption about HER?



> It was the wrong time and the wrong place and if she was a reasonable person, she could be able to look at the scenario and understand his state of mind


Ironically, even her fiancé said that HE WAS *WRONG* for the way he handled the situation. Lest we not forget THAT part...

Vega


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I've never understood why merciless harridans who nag in private ceaselessly think they've acquired the moral high ground.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

wise said:


> Dude, he grabbed her arm. That is not manhandling. Police grab people by the arm all day.. what do you think his natural instinct is? Just because he did that doesn't make him an automatic woman killer. Not every guy that has grabbed his wife by the arm ends up putting her in the hospital sometimes down the road. Yes, it happens, but none of us know what kind of history this guy has. The fact that he's a cop already means he has no prior charges of DV, murder, mental illnesses, etc etc.
> 
> This was a heat of the moment and it happens. He did not punch her, slap her, pull her by the hair.. nothing. I grab to the arm.. big deal.
> 
> The OP is here to vent her story, show her love for him and how to get past this, not how to break up with him. Some of you people say it's a deal breaker for you but I highly doubt that.


 UFB. He is a cop so he can grab her. LOL.


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Sooo why is he still your fiance?
> 
> If you marry him, it's on you. He's showing you who he is. Listen.


I agree, I'm sorry to say but I pushed the doubts and red flags from my mind... and I married the man.

I'm now in what is going to be nasty divorce proceedings. Most likely involving orders of protection and a trial.

All because I didn't stop and take red flags seriously enough.

There is a reason why we have intuition.. at the very least I would keep your eyes and ears open, and consider stepping back and looking at his behavior fully before you say "I do"


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Vega said:


> AMEN!! This should be tattooed on the forehead of EVERY MAN AND WOMAN, lol!!! The 'boundary' is not allowing the FIRST sign of disrespect in the first place.
> 
> Oh...and simply _TALKING_ to a man is not a sign of 'disrespect'.
> 
> Vega


Actually she was probably out of bounds. She was being chatted up by the guy in all likelihood. No excuse for what he did. Life is not black and white. She needs to examine her boundaries when in a relationship. We do not have to declare what she did squeaky clean in order to state that he was way off base. My gut feeling is that I would have felt disresepcted but I honestly do not know.

But a couple has to agree to boundaries. I would not have been ok with what went down either IF I thought she was just supposed to be with the girls and she ended up in a bar being chatted up by a guy. I probably had to be there to know. We do not know from what has been stated. I would have handled it differently. I would have established boundaries with her and told her this was not acceptable to me. No grabbing. No name calling. No yelling. Respect but firmness that I was not ok with this. If we disagreed I would probably figure we were not compatible and move on. You cannot control others. You can only control what you will accept. It is his right be ok with what she did or not ok. His choice. No right or wrong. BUT he did not have a right to disresepct her the way he did.

In her next relationship she needs to work with her partner and they need to agree on such boundaries. What is ok with one couple may not be with the next.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

So wise, what did you do with Hannah? She was here and left and then you popped in. LOL. What IP are you using? No disresepct.


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Both high-stress dangerous careers that involve violence and the need to maintain strict discipline, keeping your emotions in check. If a person does not have strong coping skills, at some point they may lash out verbally or physically or find other means to cope, such as addiction.


100% agree.

BTW just because he thinks she was flirting he goes straight to ****? Doesn't ask her if she is okay or what's going on etc...

His first instinct is that she is flirting and cheating?

I will say this again. I ignored those flags and it only got worse.

Funny enough my boyfriend before this got it- sometimes a cute woman gets looked at, a guy may offer to buy her a beer... you either TRUST or don't trust.... or you could do what my boyfriend did- stare them down 

You don't walk up and call your woman a b*tch, ****... 

How does this guy handle routine stops? Jeez


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

bunny23 said:


> 100% agree.
> 
> BTW just because he thinks she was flirting he goes straight to ****? Doesn't ask her if she is okay or what's going on etc...
> 
> ...


I would not have stared anyone down. I would have introduced myself as her fiance and deftly had the other dude on his way. If she did not help me do this smoothly I would have been done with her then and there.

Now if the guy gave me a problem ... Well, you do not want to know. Indeed the spin of the story with the guy being a cop makes for an interesting nuance. But that is peripheral drama. If something is so severe as to escalate to calling her that, there is no coming back from that.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> I would not have stared anyone down. I would have introduced myself as her fiance *and deftly had the other dude on his way*.


And the purpose of this action is...?


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> I would not have stared anyone down. I would have introduced myself as her fiance and deftly had the other dude on his way. If she did not help me do this smoothly I would have been done with her then and there.
> 
> Now if the guy gave me a problem ... Well, you do not want to know. Indeed the spin of the story with the guy being a cop makes for an interesting nuance. But that is peripheral drama. If something is so severe as to escalate to calling her that, there is no coming back from that.


EXACTLY!!! 
You don't go to the conclusion of "she is talking to a guy" and right away OMG she is taking him home.. what a S*ut.

I don't get these boundary comments, like she can't even talk to a guy because that is automatically cheating.

You know what men call women who act like that?
CrazyB..... and clingers level 10.

Double standard.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Vega said:


> And the purpose of this action is...?


If you have to ask there is may be no explaining it to you. I said I would have handled it differently. I would have intorduced myself as her fiance and run the male off that was making the pass. Keep in mind she was suppoed to be out with the girls. Not at a bar with guys. I would have then spoken with her wothout being aggressive or disrespectful. But the other guy had to run along first. She admitted to being the other girls wing woman. That is unacceptable to me for a married woman. I get to make that choice. She does too. But not agreeing on this is a dealbreaker. 

We call it c0ckbl0cking. One should not have to c0ckblock. She should not put herself in that situation. But she was playing wingwoman. You do not have to agree or disagree with this. It is ok either way or in between. I am not trying to sell you on anything. I am explaining that a man who feels disresepcted can handle this without manhandling the woman. But indeed if we are engaged I do not have to watch her be chatted up by some other guy. That would take some other kind of guy to be ok with any of that. Now again if she had a problem with me running of the poacher, there is nothing to discuss. It is over. She is being disrespectful. In my opinion. That is the only one I have to live by. This is true for everyone. You can say you disagree and that is fine. We are not engaged. So no problem.

BTW this would work both ways. If I was doing the same and my wife walked up she would have every right to run off the other woman. Trust me woman have a way of doing this as well.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

bunny23 said:


> EXACTLY!!!
> You don't go to the conclusion of "she is talking to a guy" and right away OMG she is taking him home.. what a S*ut.
> 
> I don't get these boundary comments, like she can't even talk to a guy because that is automatically cheating.
> ...


No. You discuss it and agree to boundaries. It is very common to have to do this during an engagement. better then that after marriage. Most folks assume that their bounbdaries are exactly the same. Rarely so. Maybe similar but real communication and understanding and all of that trump the rest. No one owns anyone. But we cannot ask someone to go against their fundamental boundaries. It eventually bites you. So you work it. When there is an issue you discuss it and deal with it.

My wife and I subscribe to POJA. Policy Of Joint Agreement. Meaning that we each have veto power in such cases.


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

What I mean was it seems like there were no set boundaries and she wasn't doing anything wrong... some people are imposing boundaries on her in TAM as an excuse for his behavior.

Yes, if you discuss something- you should stick by it.

But I think in general if you are in a healthy relationship trust is a non issue. In fact I have never had any reason to be upset with my boyfriends... except for my stbx but that is another can of worms 

A man that stoops to such comments needs the boundaries IMO


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

bunny23 said:


> EXACTLY!!!
> You don't go to the conclusion of "she is talking to a guy" and right away OMG she is taking him home.. what a S*ut.
> 
> I don't get these boundary comments, like she can't even talk to a guy because that is automatically cheating.
> ...


That would cross a line for me. YMMV. Being chatted up by guys in bars is a non starter for me and many guys. That is single behavior IMO. That is not being out with the girls. Being engaged is the trial period before marriage. Many guys are not fine with their SO going out to bars and being chatted up by guys. Some guys are ok with that.

It comes down to compatible behavior. IF your partner and you are ok with this level of openness then fine. But many are not. Boundaries are key concepts in a marriage. 

Inappropriate Behavior --> Unfaithfulness --> Cheating.

The boundary is NOT PIV sex. There is a continuum of bahaviors. Call them shades of gray. Some couples are fine with dancing, drinking flirting and even forms of dating outside of the marriage. Some put the boundary at no one on one time. many are not ok with the club or bar scene. 

So where the inappropriate behavior begins and ends is going to vary. Our friends and peers do not get to tell us what those boundaries should be. We have to discuss and work these out with our spouse. There is no one size fits all. This is custom stuff per couple. What is unfaithful behavior. I say lying and deceitful behavior for example. But there is much in between talking to someone and PIV sex. 

Now if you agree to a boundary and then cross it ... that is being unfaithful.

But no where in here is physically molesting a woman or calling her a sl*t. I would calls those boundaries. 

So I suggest to any new couple who is engaged to discuss and agree to these things. Few will do this. They are blinded by hormones but eventually there will be an issue to work through.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

HannahL said:


> My fiancé and I have been together 2yrs and recently became engaged. My finace is a police officer and last night he was working nights and I decided to go out with the girls since I hadn't had a night out with them in weeks, He ended up at a club in the area my fiancé covers and after the bar closed he was working there to clear the area and I was talking randomly to some guy that kept asking me about my best friend but was too shy to talk to her himself, My fiance came over to me and pulled me aside asking what the f**k was I playing at? and that I was acting like a sl*t, Long story short I pushed him away and we started having an argument in public, He was in uniform and was shouting back at me so his colleagues who I also know told him to calm down and walk away, They eventually calmed him down and I just walked home alone crying. The next day he came home, apologized & said that he shouldn't have acted like that but it killed him seeing me with another guy, He told me that he cant imagine his life without me and him and that without me he has absolutely nothing and kept telling me how much he loves me etc! I love him so much but I feel very cold towards him all day. How do I handle and move past this?


Cops tend to be awful people.


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

No, I'm not hannah lol. 



> EXACTLY!!!
> You don't go to the conclusion of "she is talking to a guy" and right away OMG she is taking him home.. what a S*ut.
> 
> I don't get these boundary comments, like she can't even talk to a guy because that is automatically cheating.
> ...


You are right in some sense, however, no one said talking to a guy is automatically cheating. You people are acting like she's at the park during the day or a library or something.

The fact that it is the middle of the night, who knows how many drinks she had, and who knows what the guys real intentions were. I don't understand a guy at a club talking to the girls friend because he's to shy to talk to the other girl. Most the time, in a club setting, a guy will walk up to any girl and spit out whatever. And if he was shy, why is he even talking to her anyways. This isn't high school anymore. The guy was already half way in.. who knows where it could have gone if the fiance did not step in. Sometimes people do stupid things and then it's to late. A couple minutes of talking + alcohol + club = disaster. Not saying she's this type but it happens.. ALL THE TIME.

From the cops eyes, he saw his fiancee, tipsy in the street, engaged in a convo w/ a guy, smiling, etc (who was most likely good looking which is even more stressful). People get all kinds of emotions seeing there SO like that. It's not easy. Not everyone is strong willed and has complete trust in whomever they are with. I know that is what makes a relationship but it seems as the more trust there is, the easier it is to cheat.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

bunny23 said:


> What I mean was it seems like there were no set boundaries and she wasn't doing anything wrong... some people are imposing boundaries on her in TAM as an excuse for his behavior.
> 
> Yes, if you discuss something- you should stick by it.
> 
> ...


It is very clear that she and her fiance did not agree on this boundary. Very clear. Right or wrong he felt he caught her crossing a boundary. That is why he got upset. There is no disputing this. Did they talk about said boundary? Your guess is as good as mine. But while not accusing her of any wrong doing, there is the concept of lying by omission. Meaning she could have said I am going out with the girls. He assumed the wrong thing. Shame on who? Idunno. But she admitted that this was not her usual activity. So we are not shocked he thought he caught her lying. I am not saying he is right. But this is why he over reacted. It is no excuse. He lost it and should not have. But we all get why he was upset. At least many of us do. It does not make his actions right. 

Did they agree upon a boundary? Idunno. I doubt it. I think it was assumed. He may have assumed that she would not have done this. She probaby was just talking to this guy. But many many people are not ok with committed partners going to bars with singles and being their wing person and being in the middle of the single scene. Many women on here will swear it is fine. But the only that matters is what a couple agrees to.

Do the flip the gender thing. Lets say he usually playes poker with his buddies. But instead he goes out to the bars and plays his single buddies wingman. His SO happens by. Yeah a stretch but we have been asked to believe this. The cop scenario is used as plausible reasoning here. Whatever. So my wife walks in. I am supposed to be at the guys hosue playing cards. Instead I am in a bar hitting up single women. Tell me all hell might break loose. There are women who would lose it and perhaps throw a drink in a guys face and call him a ******* ******. That does not make her right. But we understand why a woman would be upset. This works both ways.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

wise said:


> No, I'm not hannah lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I havwe to agree with this post. He did not run into her at the zoo or the library. he ran into her in a singles setting where people hookup. She was being chatted up. Some guys are ok with this but many of us are not. Sorry. I get why the guys was upset. I just think he handled it wrong. Not having been there is tough. Because how it looked would make a difference. If she told him she was doing something else it would make a difference. If they agreed this was not ok it owuld make a difference.

Not a whole lot of guys as so very cool, here. But it really depends how far the boundary was pushed in this guys eyes. Again no excuse to do what he did.

But I tell guys if they do not want a pary girl wife ... do not marry a party girl. It sounds like this was not her typical behavior.

There is nothing black and white here. I agree some ladies think they can have their same nights out like when they were single and you have to trust them. That would not work for me. And no. I would trust them NOT to go. Ok, I am closing the thread. I have posted way more than my share. back to others. Sorry.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> I would have intorduced myself as her fiance and run the male off that was making the pass.


Nowhere in the OP's posts does it say that the guy was "making a pass". You're making an assumption with no basis in reality.



> Keep in mind she was suppoed to be out with the girls. Not at a bar with guys


She wasn't at a bar "with guys" although guys DO go to bars. She was talking to a 'random guy' outside, after the bar closed. 



> But the other guy had to run along first.


Hmm...I'd wonder why you would feel so 'threatened' by some 'random guy' who she may never even see again? 



> She admitted to be the other girls wing woman.


She "admitted"? You mean, NOW there's something 'wrong' with talking to a man about her friend? I've had guys come up to me before and ask me about a friend I was with. He had NO INTEREST in _me_, asked me nothing about myself, and was ONLY interested in my friend. 



> That is unacceptable to me for a married woman


.

First of all, they're not married. 

Just WHAT _exactly_ is so "unacceptable"? She was TALKING to a man who wasn't her fiancé. She was ONLY TALKING to him about her friend; not about herSELF. And if she's ONLY TALKING, then what's with the over-the-top reaction? 



> I get to make that choice. She does too. But not agreeing on this is a dealbreaker.


Yes, you DO get to make that choice for yourself! Personally, if someone wants to try and _control_ who I can/cannot TALK to, I take issue with that. Being controlling is a deal-breaker for_ me_! 



> But indeed if we are engaged I do not have to watch her be chatted up by some other guy.


Again, from what OP described, she wasn't being "chatted up". He was asking OP about her friend. That's all. 



> That would take some other kind of guy to be ok with any of that.


Yes, such as a mature, reasonable, confident, non-fearing, emotionally SECURE man who neither views ALL men as 'predators', nor views ALL women as helpless, air-brained females, who are easily 'misled'! The kind of man who would introduce himself and join in the conversation for a few moments instead of "running the guy off"!


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

> Do the flip the gender thing. Lets say he usually playes poker with his buddies. But instead he goes out to the bars and plays his single buddies wingman. His SO happens by. Yeah a stretch but we have been asked to believe this. The cop scenario is used as plausible reasoning here. Whatever. So my wife walks in. I am supposed to be at the guys hosue playing cards. Instead I am in a bar hitting up single women. Tell me all hell might break loose. There are women who would lose it and perhaps throw a drink in a guys face and call him a ******* ******. That does not make her right. But we understand why a woman would be upset. This works both ways.


And then afterwards, she'd take the kids and jet to the parents house for the night while you beg for your life back.

I never understood why committed women think it's fine to go out at night with their girls, dance, drink, engage in convo's with guys. Women are not stupid. They know why single good looking guys are there. To. Get. Laid. 

If any guy in the 'hey whats your name lets screw' club ever comes up to you regardless of what he is saying.. out of respect to the person you love.. it should be a quick "Im engaged.. talk to my other friend." Because the guy has two motives. 1.) Say whatever 2.) to get in your pants. And you would be suprised to see what guys are willing to say/do.


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

Yeah I don't know...

I understand your reasoning about the whole going to a bar vs library or whatever.. and the flipping of the situation.

But she states she text him and told him she was going, but he never text him back.

Funny we are discussing this... I live with a guy friend and he just came home saying his gf is upset because he went to a BBQ for 45min... but he lives with me and she has no problem with it.

The older I get the more I tend to see these jealousy things as petty, maybe because my stbx is a control freak... and actually while he accused me of doing certain things he was the one cheating etc.

Like I said... I have never had this issue prior, I always dated people where it was okay if a change of plans happened and if I spoke to a random guy for 2 min he wouldn't fly into a rage. Neither do I.. 

But maybe this depends on your life history and what works for you. I just find the quick to grab/call names approach out of line.


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

@ Vega, I think you and I are on the same wavelength here.

And like I said I think that "flipping this" can lead to different things. If the girl is controlling a guy (no guys nights out) she is usually classified as a clinger.
If she goes out then she is a s*ut I guess.

Vs. 
Guy goes out- girl flips out...
girl goes out- guy flips out...

It's really about the type of relationship. But I don't get these flip outs and from my experience most of this stuff is baggage from another relationship, not reality.

*Also, while I 100% support boundaries I think in younger people the boundaries are learned. You make mistakes- you then set parameters for your current and future relationships.*
AND as an additional, you can believe it that I set boundaries with my stbx.. but if someone wants to lie, cheat whatever... they will do it.

Do you know how many times my stbx made me feel guilty cause he wanted to see his "family" and he was at a strip club? Which was my boundary.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> So I suggest to any new couple who is engaged to discuss and agree to these things. Few will do this. They are blinded by hormones but eventually there will be an issue to work through.


Actually Entropy, I DO agree with the 'gist' of what you're saying in your posts...to a point. 

Personally, I don't believe that the engagement period is the time to 'discuss and agree' on things. I think the couple should do this BEFORE they even get engaged. After all, if I discovered that my _boyfriend_ had the same attitude as the OP's fiancé, I wouldn't have agreed to get engaged. In fact, as soon as he grabbed my arm, I would have broken up with him _permanently_ on the spot. 

Vega


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Vega said:


> Nowhere in the OP's posts does it say that the guy was "making a pass". You're making an assumption with no basis in reality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are engaged. Close enough. Like I said you do not have to agree. I am just telling you that many of us guys find this top be singkle behavior. It is not about being threatened. It is about disrespect. Personally any woman who would risk this is not into me and I would drop her in a heartbeat. A guy does not have to settle.

I know my way around the bar scene. Let's leave it at that. I am speaking from experience. You do not have to agree.

So let's call, men jealous, insecure and controlling? LOL. This is rhetoric. How about a man that is so secure in himself he has no problem in asserting his boundaries. What kind of a man would be manipulated by being labeled as such?  LOL. Men of quality and value do not care what others think. They respect their women and they demand respect back. Simple as this. Only an insecure man would even care about such accusations. No I would not be with a woman who went to singles bars. That is disrespectful. I get to make that choice. 

The guy did not find his SO at the library discussing d!ckens. He found her at a bar after hours even. Being chatted up by a guy. Call it what you want. Why was she even there at that hour? She was not at the movies. She was talking to a guy about her single friend. Anyway just be aware that many men find this unaccapetable. Some women find it unacceptable that a guy would care. Wondermous. They are not compatible. It does not make the woman a sl*t as has been used and it does not make the guy jealous, insecure or controlling. It makes them incompatible. I am NOT trying to convince you to not hang out at bars and chat with guys until the bar closes. I am just saying that many men find that behavior unacceptable and it does not make their penis too small, or their IQ too low or make them insecure. They just have what we call self respect and confidence.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

bunny23 said:


> Yeah I don't know...
> 
> I understand your reasoning about the whole going to a bar vs library or whatever.. and the flipping of the situation.
> 
> ...


Not typical Bunny. LOL.


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

Okay let me just say....

I think that boundary discussions are great, but you still put TRUST in that person that they will respect that boundary.

So... either way this boiled down to trust 

I do take some offence that party girls are bad  I was a party girl, we all loved to dance.. that's how I met one of my first long term boyfriends (who proposed btw).

But now? Ugh at home on TAM!


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

The last thing the fiance expected when he was clearing a crowd full of drunk single people (around 2 a.m.) was his fiancee talking to some guy in whatever kind of state of mind she was in. He had no idea she was there. Can you imagine the kind of emotions one would get. It could have been a lot worse than some arm grabbing and name calling. She did push him back so she obviously was defensive. 

Vega, I highly doubt your fiancee would just roll up and engage in the conversation going on. If he does, it obvious he doesn't give a rats a$$ what you do in the middle of the night and he is most likely doing the same with other random females. That spells disaster, especially if you two became bored with each other. Living like that is not being fully committed to one person in my book. Looks more like keeping other options available


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

bunny23 said:


> Okay let me just say....
> 
> I think that boundary discussions are great, but you still put TRUST in that person that they will respect that boundary.
> 
> ...


I trust no man. LOL.

Hey if you guys knew me you would know ... I was a sweatheart.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Vega said:


> Actually Entropy, I DO agree with the 'gist' of what you're saying in your posts...to a point.
> 
> Personally, I don't believe that the engagement period is the time to 'discuss and agree' on things. I think the couple should do this BEFORE they even get engaged. After all, if I discovered that my _boyfriend_ had the same attitude as the OP's fiancé, I wouldn't have agreed to get engaged. In fact, as soon as he grabbed my arm, I would have broken up with him _permanently_ on the spot.
> 
> Vega


We violently agree here.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

What is surprising is that a guy who carries a gun for a living commits battery on his fiancee in public and there are comments like 'aw, it was just a little arm-grabbing. give the guy a pass'.

Those who think arm-grabbing is okey-dokey need to wake up before they land in the hoosegow.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

...the fiancée was PROBABLY dressed sexily
...the fiancée was PROBABLY beautiful (making it worse)
...the fiancée was PROBABLY smiling 
...the random guy was PROBABLY good-looking
...the fiancée was PROBABLY tipsy

...WOW! Project much?


ETA: Just read a thread you started...explains a LOT! :rofl:


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## HannahL (Aug 24, 2013)

As far as I can see I have never given him any reason to doubt me, Like I have said all I want is him, I truly love him. I have even asked him if and why he doesn't trust me and he ignores my question and tries to lead us to have sex or gets hot headed with the question I've asked him! 

The male that I was chatting to never asked me *one thing* about myself, Everything he asked about was about my friend, The guy came up to me as we were walking out and my friend walked away from him leaving me with him, When we got outside I was basically beside my friends. It was out of the blue that I felt myself being dragged aside and took me by surprise when I looked up it was my fiancé and he just lost it with me, Not allowing me to get a word in and when I tried to tell him what was going on he kept over powering me!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I ignored red flags. Not with abuse towards me, but with my STBX's drinking.

Big moment this week when he finally told me he's an alcoholic and started going to AA. Too bad it's a bit too late. Divorce is still happening. Too much between us to build anything back.

I look back though, when we were dating, and the drinking that was "fun". Then when we moved in together, and the drinking that was "for a rough day". Every day. At least 6-10 beers. In the past 2 years it was about 12 beers a day, and on his days off, easily 20. And sips of my wine. And sips from MY bottle of vodka. I'm not a drinker. I can have a drink on Friday and not touch it until the next weekend. I've thrown wine away because it goes bad. And I noticed my alcohol levels lowering...so I started marking them. And he'd go into the kitchen, crack a beer, chug it, then quietly crack a beer and act like he only got one. I knew this and said nothing.

So...it started with "fun" drinking. Now it's "all the time no matter what I'm doing because I don't want to feel life and I don't want to address my own issues" drinking.

I think he's been drunk every day for the past 3 years. This is what I was dealing with. No wonder I was going through my own mind eff. He does not SEEM drunk, but he was. Every day.

It doesn't go away, it doesn't get better. Same with the "slvt" name and the arm grab. That's the beginning in my eyes. 

I am/was married to an alcoholic. I ignored the red flags.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Sorry but if he's acting that way and you're not even married don't expect him to change that type of behavior or thinking. At least not anytime soon, if ever. 

The fact that he's a cop as far as I'm concerned makes that even more troubling. I've dealt with too many who had a "entitlement/holier than you" complex before they even became cops and getting a badge just made it worse as it made them feel they were above the law/rules. Not to mention when they cross the line whether it's falsifying reports or smacking their wives/girlfriends around, good luck trying to find any support or help from their fellow officers or law enforcement in general. That blue wall is a mile thick and just as high with them.

While I don't think him being jealous/suspicious was necessarily a bad thing in itself, the way he handled it was WAAY beyond inappropriate. You really need to question your relationship or at the very least get him to acknowledge that what he did crossed the line. Laying down boundaries is one thing (and boundaries go BOTH ways), letting your s/o know that you feel what they were doing was inappropriate is another. Verbally abusing your s/o in public and physically handling them is something else entirely.

Honestly the way he reacted IMO is a serious red flag. Please don't ignore them solely based on love. Love alone cannot not make a great relationship or marriage.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

HannahL said:


> As far as I can see I have never given him any reason to doubt me, Like I have said all I want is him, I truly love him. I have even asked him if and why he doesn't trust me and *he ignores my question and tries to lead us to have sex or gets hot headed with the question I've asked him! *
> 
> The male that I was chatting to never asked me *one thing* about myself, Everything he asked about was about my friend, The guy came up to me as we were walking out and my friend walked away from him leaving me with him, When we got outside I was basically beside my friends. *It was out of the blue that I felt myself being dragged aside and took me by surprise when I looked up it was my fiancé and he just lost it with me, Not allowing me to get a word in and when I tried to tell him what was going on he kept over powering me!*


Be warned. Just be warned. I see so many red flags. He won't talk to you, but wants to have sex. Without talking. Without any real acknowledgement. He gets upset about it when you talk to him. Just wants sex.

At some point, the sex won't fix things. I know. The sex will become gross and you'll feel used because he doesn't want to connect to your mind or feelings, just your body. 

Mind you, that's just my experience with the same shet.

No good.

He's also somewhat of a bully. I understand anger, but grown people don't drag someone aside or bully them into silence. IN public. Wow. Imagine how it could be in private. I dunno. You really have some thinking to do, I guess.

He's not your father or your keeper. He is supposed to be your partner. Any "problem" should be addressed as equals.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

HannahL said:


> It was out of the blue that I felt myself being dragged aside and took me by surprise when I looked up it was my fiancé and he just lost it with me, Not allowing me to get a word in and when I tried to tell him what was going on he kept over powering me!


Any man who used his superior physical strength to subdue, intimidate or overpower me - i_n anyway whatsoever _- would be history. 

OP, this man has given you a glimpse of what you can expect when you're married to him. Imagine how much more entitled he would feel if you had children together and you were (heaven forbid) dependent on him!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

HannahL said:


> As far as I can see I have never given him any reason to doubt me, Like I have said all I want is him, I truly love him. I have even asked him if and why he doesn't trust me and he ignores my question and tries to lead us to have sex or gets hot headed with the question I've asked him!
> 
> The male that I was chatting to never asked me *one thing* about myself, Everything he asked about was about my friend, The guy came up to me as we were walking out and my friend walked away from him leaving me with him, When we got outside I was basically beside my friends. It was out of the blue that I felt myself being dragged aside and took me by surprise when I looked up it was my fiancé and he just lost it with me, Not allowing me to get a word in and when I tried to tell him what was going on he kept over powering me!


What are you going to do now? Are you going to ignore this red flag?


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Hannah, it's easier to end an engagement than it is a marriage.
Have you thought about taking some time away, go stay with family for a few days to clear your head?
If your FI is unwilling to speak with you regarding what happened, that should be the BIGGEST red flag of all, as he is trying to rug sweep what he did.
It's very unhealthy for him to literally dismiss what he did, as it shows he cannot process his own behavior, he must just ignore it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

And talking to people isn't a crime. You know your intent. Maybe he's guilty of something....never know.

I wonder how things will change once you marry. Who will you not be able to talk to then?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> ...the fiancée was PROBABLY dressed sexily
> ...the fiancée was PROBABLY beautiful (making it worse)
> ...the fiancée was PROBABLY smiling
> ...the random guy was PROBABLY good-looking
> ...


I think it would be projecting to assume that there was no drinking going at the club and that this was in the middle of the afternoon and that any of this activity was NOT single behavior. The fact there was an altercation at all tells us that this was not the library. Also cops know there way around as well. This was bad enough for him to lose it. 

Projection works both ways.

Talking is not a crime. For that matter screwing around is not a crime either. But relationships are not about crime. Obviously they did not agree on her behavior. She is free to do what she wants but he is also free to find it not acceptable. So again, I say throttle the you go girl and the you go guy stuff. THAT is projecting.

If we are free to see the red flags in his behavior and possible future violence we are also free to look at the late night bar GNO behavior with the same criticality. IF I found my finace in this situation and there was an agreement this was not acceptable, it would be the end of the relationship. So while not a government crime, it would be an unfaithful act. But nothing about any boundaries have been mentioned. We only have his reaction to her behavior.

I am amazed still that folks feel the need to look at things as black and white and not look at situations as they are in total. The guy was wrong. But him being wrong does not mean there are not other issues here.
To only focus on one piece for whatever reason is a projection as well. Just another spin on the GNO debate.
No one is justifyng him physically doing what he did or calling her names. But why do you think he acted that way? Saying that he is a complete mental duche bag is fine. Even a possible answer. But what is most likely here?

Sure she should dump this guy. Why risk it? 

Is being engaged ... in a committed relationship. Or is it being single? You can argue this either way. Some folks expect being engaged to be a trial for marriage. Others act single up to the wedding day and even beyond.

Now beat me up all you want. I never go to bars in the evening unless I am on a trip with my colleagues. I often go to a nic dinner and pften spend time on sports bars and pubs while travelling. My colleagues are men AND women. This has its dangers. I do not hang out one on one though. My wife knows about all of this and she is fine with it. So I am not crossing any agreed upon boundaries here. But I do know what goes on in these places. It makes you shake your head a lot. It is amazing what "married" people do. That is their business of course. Those that go out with their single friends when these friends are out looking for fun with the opposite sex are pushing the envelope and pretty much playing just the tip. Fine and dandy if they are within the agreed boundaries. Just saying trust is what matters is very very naive IMO. It is like trusting the rythm method for birth control. The best way to earn trust is to not push the envelope.

But I wanted to be transparent that I do spend time in bars myself. There is some risk in this. I do not engage with anyone not my colleague. This has its own dangers of course.

But anyone who has been around this site who can not see the potential issues with this thread has not read anything in CWI.


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## Time4Joy (Dec 13, 2012)

If you have represented his actions accurately, this guy shouldn't be your fiancee and he shouldn't be a cop either. No self control either during the "roust" or afterward. A tendency toward violent behavior under color of authority and abject neediness afterward are huge red flags, laser red lights. I am on the board of directors of a major domestic violence organization, and the behaviors you cite: anger/verbal abuse/physical restraint and then to make up, overweening contriteness are typical of abusers. Real men don't verbally and physically intimidate or hurt the ones they love. You deserve a real man. Lastly, ask yourself, "If I marry him and he beats me up, who do I call for help--his brothers in blue?" Good luck with that.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Time4Joy said:


> If you have represented his actions accurately, this guy shouldn't be your fiancee and he shouldn't be a cop either. No self control either during the "roust" or afterward. A tendency toward violent behavior under color of authority and abject neediness afterward are huge red flags, laser red lights. I am on the board of directors of a major domestic violence organization, and the behaviors you cite: anger/verbal abuse/physical restraint and then to make up, overweening contriteness are typical of abusers. Real men don't verbally and physically intimidate or hurt the ones they love. You deserve a real man. Lastly, ask yourself, "If I marry him and he beats me up, who do I call for help--his brothers in blue?" Good luck with that.


Ok, I agree IF this behavior is standard operating procedure for him. I wonder if he wasn't a cop if some people wouldn't feel so strongly about this ... we make assumptions based on the fact he is a cop. Putting it another way ... who here hasn't overreacted at some point in their life? I know I have. I have overreacted more than once in my life in ways that I regret. Heck, one time many years ago I called my boss a fvcking a$$hole right to his face in the heat of battle ... and if he wasn't a friend of mine, he probably would have fired me (oddly, if he wasn't a friend of mine, I might not have said it, lol). Now, there is a line that can get crossed where even a single overreaction is inexcusable ... physical or emotional violence would be one of them ... or using chemical weapons . Did this incident with OP cross that line? Is this one of several incidents indicating a pattern of behavior?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Now, there is a line that can get crossed where even a single overreaction is inexcusable ... physical or emotional violence would be one of them ... or using chemical weapons .
> 
> Did this incident with OP cross that line? *Is this one of several incidents indicating a pattern of behavior*?


Below is a list of behaviors the OPs fiancé exhibited: 

1. My fiance came over to me and…pulled me by the arm.
touching someone in anger is unacceptable. Period. 

2…asking what the f**k was I playing at?
Is this language NECESSARY?

3. (told me in public) I was acting like a sl*t
Completely unacceptable, especially in public.

4. his colleagues told…him to calm down and walk away
Even his colleagues recognized that his behavior was over-the-top 

5. the next day he..apologized & said that he shouldn't have acted like that...but it killed him seeing me with another guy
Apologies are the SOP after this kind of behavior. The fact that it "kills" him to see her JUST TALKING to another man is jealousy in its extreme

6. He told me that he cant imagine his life without me and
without me he has absolutely nothing
Again, this is emotional over-the-top behavior making HER responsible for HIS feelings, which is complete and utter nonsense 

7. He definitely has more boys nights out than I do with the girls.
Hmm...I wonder if HE goes to bars, what time HE stays out til, if there are WOMEN at these bars, and if HE talks to them, and what time HE comes home? 

8. I have even asked him if and why he doesn't trust me and he ignores my question and tries to lead us to have sex or...
This is a MAJOR red flag. The fact that he won't answer a LEGITIMATE question _and_ that he tries to deflect by trying to engage her in sex. 


9. ...gets hot headed with the question I've asked him!
This is aNOTHER MAJOR red flag. 

10. Not allowing me to get a word in and when I tried to tell him what was going on he kept over powering me!
This guy was NOT interested in finding out what was going on. He seems more interested in 'shooting' first, and MAYBE asking questions later.

Sorry, but this guy is bad news...

Vega


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Vega said:


> Below is a list of behaviors the OPs fiancé exhibited:
> 
> 1. My fiance came over to me and…pulled me by the arm.
> touching someone in anger is unacceptable. Period.
> ...


Just so you know, I am not defending the guys actions ... I am opening the question up for debate.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Just so you know, I am not defending the guys actions ... I am opening the question up for debate.


Yes. I know, JSGW. I've seen your posts. Didn't mean to seem like I was 'picking' on what you wrote. What I was trying to do was to point out some of the fiances' behavior that could been considered 'red flags'. I just used your words as a 'jumping off' point; not meant to point a bony finger at YOU! 

In other words, it's not ONLY a question of him grabbing her arm AND calling her a ****. It's that he grabbed her arm AND called her a **** AND that he gets 'hot headed' when the OP asks him questions about why he doesn't trust her AND that he tries to engage her in sex instead of asking her questions AND...

I'm trying to show the OP (and others)that there are more red-flags than only one or two behaviors.

Vega


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Ok, I agree IF this behavior is standard operating procedure for him. I wonder if he wasn't a cop if some people wouldn't feel so strongly about this ... we make assumptions based on the fact he is a cop. Putting it another way ... who here hasn't overreacted at some point in their life? I know I have. I have overreacted more than once in my life in ways that I regret. Heck, one time many years ago I called my boss a fvcking a$$hole right to his face in the heat of battle ... and if he wasn't a friend of mine, he probably would have fired me (oddly, if he wasn't a friend of mine, I might not have said it, lol). Now, there is a line that can get crossed where even a single overreaction is inexcusable ... physical or emotional violence would be one of them ... or using chemical weapons . Did this incident with OP cross that line? Is this one of several incidents indicating a pattern of behavior?


Excellent post. I agree. Taken out of context I have overreacted plenty. 

I do think a picture is painted by mentioning he was a cop. All sorts of things are pulled in with thiat. It does explain why he was there though. 

I actually can put myself in his shoes and can see under the right circumstances where I might overreact. 

What we have been told though is enough to raise real red flags for me. Only she can say how out of character this was for him.

But indeed as has been suggested tend to fill in the blanks. You can call it projection or whatever. This is a normal reaction for people trying to figure out things. We can fill in the blanks with things that are not there. It is part of our built in survival mechanism though. It is Darwinian. I think this is ok as long as we can recognize the filled in spots. Be able to see what has been confimred and what is conjecture. But if we only went through life and reacted to only things that were close to 100% .... we woukd die. No exaggeration. 

If we think we hear a car rushing up behind us we tend to assume we are in danger and jump out of the way. We may later find out we were wrong. So I contend it is ok for our own protection to err on the side of safety. Blind trust can put you in harms way. 

So him reacting this way is something she should be concerened about. It may be an indication of bad things to come. 

But I do think he reacted to ... something. Again not justifying it. We do not really know what that was. We only have his reaction to go on. Some feel he is jealous, insecure and controlling. maybe even violent. Well really it makes sense for those folks to fill in the blanks this way. They are mostly women and they are being Darwinian here. He may be this way. But giys are more focused on her behavior. They fill in the blanks with their ... fears. 

So indeed as has been said .. projections. Filling in the blanks. As an Engineer I do not have a problem with this ... IF it is just a test ... a hypothesis. Something that has not been proved but something that deserves further investigation before making a conclusion.

He could have just overreacted in the heat of the moment. She may not have felt she was crossing any boundaries. But we do not now. So we are left with our favorite red flags. We fill in the blanks.

If I hear a window smash at night in my living room, I grab my weapon and ask my wife to call 911. I fill in the blnks to be safe. Yet I really have no idea what really happened. Until I look further.

The biggest alarms for me in all of this are with the guy though. His actions are potentially dangerous.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> The biggest alarms for me in all of this are with the guy though. His actions are potentially dangerous.


Agreed again, Entropy. And I wanted to bring up one more thing...

This guy is a cop. But his reaction was _contrary_ to his training as a cop. Police are taught to 'act'; not 'react'. They are expected to have MORE self-control than the average person; not_ less_. 

Granted, they have only a second or two to assess certain dangerous situations before they MUST act. But after the first second or two, the fiancé could have clearly seen that the OP wasn't in any 'danger'. 

Now, after writing that, I'm waiting for someone to mention something about the difficulty in 'repressing deep male 'instinct' no matter how much training he had'' or some such garbage. If we take a look at the behaviors I outlined, we can see that he has a certain _mentality_. It's not about 'instinct'. 

Police are held to a HIGHER standard of conduct because of their training. 

Again, I agree. This guy is dangerous.

Vega


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Vega said:


> Agreed again, Entropy. And I wanted to bring up one more thing...
> 
> This guy is a cop. But his reaction was _contrary_ to his training as a cop. Police are taught to 'act'; not 'react'. They are expected to have MORE self-control than the average person; not_ less_.
> 
> ...


I do not have the same faith in anyone in authority that you do. I do hold people accountable.

Keep in mind he is also trained to be very assertive. The training they get is NOT how to deal with a fiance. They are trained to take control. Some get more training than others in dealing with the public.

I know a lot of cops. Plenty of great guys and plenty of real @$$holes. They all put their lives on the line. But they are real people. Just like the rest of us.

Forget deep male instinct. Think about testosterone. I can tell you first hand that testosterone levels make all the difference in a man's behavior. If you are a woman you will not know first hand. 

Sorry, but like it or not men are emotional creatures and real people just like women. Men's egos define who they are as a person. No apology for this. It is what makes men ... men. Just like we should not put a woman on a pedastal so we should not put a man there either.

But women are by their nature more trusting of other men than men are of other men with their women. This IS natural. That is why we have population growth. We see this debate over OSFs. Most women saying that they have plenty of OSFs and they do not want sex from them. Then we hear the guys just laugh at this. Two different views based mostly on gender.

Soooo my point here is that she did not see this guy as a problem and the male did. This is not something to rationalize away. This is very very normal behavior. You do not have to like it. You can call it instinct if you like. You can try and shame men out of it but a real man will not be shamed. Again he should not have grabbed her and he should not have called her that. He overreacted to what he saw. You want to say he is a cop and he should not have done that due to his training and yet I hear he is a cop and think ... sure that makes sense.

---------

Idea for a new thread. In the population of 100 million people. If we could magically turn off the "instinct" that males tend to have for ever feeling jealous. Image the nirvana. LOL. But imagine what would happen in a popoulation of 100 milion. Meaning what other inforseen impact would this have on the human race? I mean men would just TRUST thier mates to see all the daners of other malse to the primary relationship. 

Would there be more cake eating? Would there be more guys raising children not theirs? Would there be an increase of serial monogamy where more women out of 100 million might leave one partner for another? If I guy has zero instinct to see risk in his relationship what would happen? Ok another thread. I think it would be a nightmare. Would the male even protect the family any more ..... of we do not need them to do that ... right?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> I do not have the same faith in anyone in authority that you do. I do hold people accountable.


In my post, I don't believe that I implied that I was putting my 'faith' into people with authority. I was simply stating some facts. Believe me, after being cheated on a year+ ago, my faith in people _in general _has been shaken. But I'm not going to hold ALL men accountable for ONE man's decision to cheat! I'm not THAT naïve...

My exh. was a cop for many year, and he had the same attitude as OP's fiancé. Trust me, it was NOT 'fun' to live with...which is why he's my *EX*. And yes, he tried to explain his behavior away with all of his testosterone and "ego" crap. Then he met a therapist who DID hold him accountable. The problem was related to his ego; he too much of one, and basically, he thought I should "worship" him. That's what I call an ego that's out of control. 



> Soooo my point here is that she did not see this guy as a problem and the male did. This is not something to rationalize away. This is very very normal behavior.


This is where you an I don't agree, Entropy. As much as you may want to see his behavior as "normal", I see it as a symptom of a larger issue. I mean, the OP also relates that the fiancé became "hot headed" when she asked him, "Why don't you trust me?" Why didn't he simply answer a reasonable question? I can guarantee you , that the answer to that question has little to do with testosterone, and much to do with an _immature_ ego. 



> You want to say he is a cop and he should not have done that due to his training and yet I hear he is a cop and think ... sure that makes sense


I don't believe that I said this. All I was pointing out was that he's a cop and he was trained NOT to 'react'. When he reacted as he did, it was as if all of his training went out the window. 

I see it this way: If he becomes "hot headed" because she asked him a valid question, and he becomes hot headed when he merely saw her TALKING to another man, that tells me he's got some 'issues'...and that she probably shouldn't marry him unless and/or until he can work those issues out for himself.

Vega

(Whew! I'm going to 'blame' YOU for giving my fingers a work-out from typing so much, Entropy. I'm holding YOU "accountable", lol!)


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## Fee_ (Jan 26, 2011)

When somebody SHOWS you who they are BELIEVE THEM.

p.s. Run.


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## Fee_ (Jan 26, 2011)

Vega said:


> Below is a list of behaviors the OPs fiancé exhibited:
> 
> 1. My fiance came over to me and…pulled me by the arm.
> touching someone in anger is unacceptable. Period.
> ...


:iagree: Take heed OP.

http://abuse101.com/toxicmen.html


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok not everyone is perfect, cop or not. Jealous tends to make people act in unsual ways when it hits. That is normal. Alot of people here are so quick to paint the fiance as the villian when this is just her perception of things. 

In my mind i don't see how this man was violent. He pulled her by the arm not yanked, he cussed yes but damn so would i if i saw my man in what appeared to be an act of unfaithful behavior. 

I am getting tired of the shame shame for being jealous... shame to those people who seem to want to blurr the lines between being single and being in a relationship. 

There is nothing wrong with jealousy in itself. It is normal and actually quite healthy. 

Now yes there is too much jealousy and too much trust... both tend to happen and both have terrible results. We all know neither is good.

After seeing a few more posts from op on fiances behavior... as well as her own i do agree that the op and her fiance need to sit down and have a serious discussion on where they want this relationship to go, what their expectations are, ect. 

OP suggest fiance go to therapy for that anger issue since your later posts seem to indicate he has one. If your willing to work on things that is and if he is willing to work on himself i wish you both luck. If he seems unwilling to change after this, gets aggressive during the convo, ect then i do agree with the others and think your better off single rather then with this guy. 

One thing that i am curious about.... didnt you mention going to an area you know your fiance patrols? Or did he just seem to pop out of nowhere? 

If it's you going to an area you know he patrols... that makes me wonder a bit if you were not trying to make him jealous to see how he would react? This could be conscience or unconscience behavior and you may consider getting into therapy too.

If he just came out of nowhere... yeah i think you should find someone else because stalkerish behavior like that is never good. Doesn't matter if he is a cop or not...


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

wise said:


> and who knows what the guys real intentions were.


I do.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Vega said:


> It's apparent that you have no idea what domestic violence and abuse is.


Oooh, oooh! I know this. Abuse is violence, threats of violence, or coercion. Acting like a jerk, or calling somebody a name, or making somebody sad are not examples of abuse.



> Touching anyone _in anger _is abusive.


Touching? You're going to define abuse as touching? Seriously? No offense, but that's beyond asinine. If touching is abuse, then we're going to need enough jails to house every man, woman, and child on Earth.



> He obviously believes that it's o.k. for him to react violently without thinking; to react to his irrational feelings without confronting his own thinking; that his 'feelings' are more important than finding out what the truth is.


I wouldn't call jealousy based on one's girlfriend talking to another man outside a bar at closing time irrational. I would say it's very rational.



> Oh boy, here we go. You can only speak for _yourself_. You can not speak for ALL 'guys' because not ALL guys think like you! You would have done better if you wrote, "From ONE guys' point of view..." or "Being a guy, from *my* point of view". Contrary to popular opinion, ALL 'guys' don't think alike!


Yes. We call this NAMALT (not all men are like that), or conversely, NAWALT. People are unique snowflakes. It's always a complete surprise to me how people who are looking for casual sex late at night somehow, through pure coincidence, end up in the same kinds of places (bars and clubs) and exhibiting the same kinds of behaviors. It has to be coincidence because NAMALT and NAWALT. General behaviors that apply to large portions of populations obviously can't exist.


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

Cosmos said:


> I wouldn't go clubbing with single friends whilst in a committed relationship, OP, and wouldn't expect my SO to do so either. However, I wouldn't remain engaged to a man who called me a s!ut, laid hands on me and caused a scene like that in public.


This. I think you were both in the wrong. He shouldn't resort to grabbing, yelling and name-calling. OTOH, if I happened to walk by a club at 2am with my coworkers and found my H talking to some random chick, I'd probably lose my cool too.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> Oooh, oooh! I know this. Abuse is violence, threats of violence, or coercion. Acting like a jerk, or calling somebody a name, or making somebody sad are not examples of abuse.


This is like saying that the definition of "cheating" is ONLY having intercourse, oral sex or kissing someone other than your spouse. So if your partner is holding hands with some unknown man, it's not "cheating". If your partner is sexting, it's not "cheating"...right? Once again, I suggest you spend a little time on a few abuse boards to discover what the different kinds of abuse are! Name-calling _*IS*_ considered to be verbal abuse. Grabbing someone's arm in anger _*IS*_ considered to be physical abuse. 



> Touching? You're going to define abuse as touching? Seriously? No offense, but that's beyond asinine. If touching is abuse, then we're going to need enough jails to house every man, woman, and child on Earth.


I didn't write that "touching" is abusive; I wrote that "touching *in anger*" is abusive. Please don't mince my words. I was very specific. Obviously, if *you* grab my wrist playfully, you're not being abusive. But if you grab my wrist and twist it _in anger_, then yes...you're being abusive. Men and women who end up in abuse programs are often shocked to discover what is considered "abusive". 




> I wouldn't call jealousy based on one's girlfriend talking to another man outside a bar at closing time irrational. I would say it's very rational.


We're not talking about jealousy _in of itself_. We're talking about his _reaction_ to his own _feelings_ of jealousy. There may be plenty of people who may find themselves in a similar position as the fiancé, yet _control_ their reactions. The one's who DON'T control themselves are the people we hear about who KILL their partners out of "jealousy" or beat them up out of "jealousy".

Self-awareness (aware that you feel jealous, for example) + self-control (not acting on those feelings, because there may not be a valid reason for them in the first place; seeking the TRUTH about what's going on) = good relationships.

Vega


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## hereinthemidwest (Oct 7, 2010)

Alot of cops have type A personality. Can be very aggressive. I once worked with a young girl who's boyfriend was a county cop and weekly she came in marked up. We pleaded and begged her leave. She's was love struck and would never even call the police on him fear he lose his job. READ FLAG REG FLAG for you. If you do stay I wouldn't allow it to happen again.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Vega said:


> This is like saying that the definition of "cheating" is ONLY having intercourse, oral sex or kissing someone other than your spouse. So if your partner is holding hands with some unknown man, it's not "cheating". If your partner is sexting, it's not "cheating"...right?


If, by cheating, you mean adultery, then you are correct. Holding hands and sending inappropriate messages are not adultery. They are inappropriate. They are hurtful. But adultery involves sex.



> Once again, I suggest you spend a little time on a few abuse boards to discover what the different kinds of abuse are! Name-calling _*IS*_ considered to be verbal abuse. Grabbing someone's arm in anger _*IS*_ considered to be physical abuse.


I understand that many consider that to be abuse. But frankly, many people dealing with abuse want to expand the definition of abuse to include anything and everything. When that happens, the very word abuse becomes meaningless. If abuse means violence, threats of violence, or coercion (language taken from statutes), then abuse means something. If it means touching someone, then it is meaningless.



> I didn't write that "touching" is abusive; I wrote that "touching *in anger*" is abusive. Please don't mince my words. I was very specific.


Fair enough. Touching, by itself, isn't abuse. Touching, while the toucher is feeling a certain emotion (anger), is abuse. I still fail to see much of a difference. If touching, even if done while one party is angry, is abuse, then literally anything can be considered abuse.



> Men and women who end up in abuse programs are often shocked to discover what is considered "abusive".


Not just them. I haven't been in any abuse programs and I was shocked to learn that touching is considered abusive.



> We're not talking about jealousy _in of itself_. We're talking about his _reaction_ to his own _feelings_ of jealousy.


Well, not to mince words again, but your statement referenced his reaction to his "irrational feelings." That is the part that I dispute. Feelings of jealousy upon seeing one's fiance chatting with a man outside a bar at closing time are perfectly rational.



> There may be plenty of people who may find themselves in a similar position as the fiancé, yet _control_ their reactions. The one's who DON'T control themselves are the people we hear about who KILL their partners out of "jealousy" or beat them up out of "jealousy".


Sure. There are plenty of people who would not react. There are plenty of people who would react beyond what the OP's boyfriend did. Given the information the OP has given us, I find his behavior in subsequent days more disturbing than his behavior that night.

And pulling a woman by her arm away from a potential suitor, and then raising your voice and saying that she is acting poorly is a LOOOOONG WAY from the actions of a murderer. It's exactly that kind of histrionics that lead to many reasonable people looking at allegations of abuse the way the townspeople of the fairy tales looked at the pleas of the boy who cried wolf.



> Self-awareness (aware that you feel jealous, for example) + self-control (not acting on those feelings, because there may not be a valid reason for them in the first place; seeking the TRUTH about what's going on) = good relationships.


I would certainly add to your list the importance of boundaries. Personally, I would never get dressed up, go out drinking with my friends, and spend time in a venue dedicated to facilitating people having casual sex because that would be disrespectful to my wife. I would never want to have to explain to her that I was having an innocent conversation with the girl in the mini-skirt at 2AM while we were both drunk. I think it's far better to avoid these kinds of misunderstandings than to engage in behavior prone to cause them and then expect one's partner to show significant restraint by investigating before assuming something untoward.


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## BWBill (Jan 30, 2013)

Abuse in relationships starts small. If there was physical abuse on the first date then there would be no second date. Physical abuse doesn’t start until the abusers gain some emotional connection to their victims.

Early signs of abusers are jealousy and passive aggressive behavior. The jealousy serves to cut others out of the victim’s life, particularly other men.

Sex is also often used as a means of control, to maintain an emotional connection to the victim.

Your fiancé may or may not be a potential abuser. However, it is clear that he has anger and control issues.

I never grabbed my wife or called her a sl_t, even in private. Had I done so (and certainly in public) we would never have gotten married. If you don’t respect yourself, then don’t expect your fiancé to.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> If, by cheating, you mean adultery, then you are correct. Holding hands and *sending inappropriate messages* are not adultery. They are inappropriate. They are hurtful. But adultery involves sex.


Again, we have to define what "inappropriate" means. What SOME people define as "inappropriate", others don't. The problems start when one person tries to _IMPOSE_ and/or FORCE _his or her _set of 'definitions' or 'standards' on another. 

The fiancé saw something _he_ didn't like. He became jealous. But not all people would feel jealous if they were in the same situation. Therefore, I don't think we can say that what the OP was doing was "wrong" or even "inappropriate", and it wouldn't be fair of the fiancé to impose his 'standards' on the OP (by grabbing her arm and calling her a ****).



> But frankly, many people dealing with abuse want to expand the definition of abuse to include anything and everything. When that happens, the very word abuse becomes meaningless.


Oh, I ABSOLUTELY AGREE with you about this! These days, it seems like too many people LOOK for reasons to feel 'offended'! 

But just like the word "abuse" can be...'abused', the word 'cheating' can also be 'abused'. I mean, think about it. Some people have very strong religious convictions, and believe that a couple is still married, even if the state issued a divorce decree. Therefore, if the woman begins to date AFTER the divorce has been granted, she's "cheating" and/or committing adultery. 



> Fair enough. Touching, by itself, isn't abuse. Touching, while the toucher is feeling a certain emotion (anger), is abuse. I still fail to see much of a difference. If touching, even if done while one party is angry, is abuse, then literally anything can be considered abuse.


A definition of the word 'battery' in Merriam-Webster's (online) dictionary 1b states: : _an offensive *touching* or use of force on a person without the person's consent_. All 50 states have laws that are similarly worded. And yes, the definition of 'battery' definitely falls under the umbrella of 'abuse'. 



> Well, not to mince words again, but your statement referenced his reaction to his "irrational feelings." That is the part that I dispute. Feelings of jealousy upon seeing one's fiance chatting with a man outside a bar at closing time are perfectly rational.


It's probably best if you and I simply agree to disagree on this. I can almost bet you that if her fiancé spent any amount of quality time with a decent therapist, the fiancé would see just how 'irrational' his thinking is about this. 



> Given the information the OP has given us, I find his behavior in subsequent days more disturbing than his behavior that night.


Which is WHY I'm writing what I'm writing throughout this thread. I'm not ONLY looking at the fiancé's behavior in that ONE instance. He didn't ONLY call her a ****. He didn't ONLY grab her by her arm. He didn't ONLY do this in public. He didn't ONLY try to talk over her when she tried to explain. He called her a **** AND he grabbed her arm AND he did this in public AND he talked over her in just this one instance. Considering that the OP also describes him as "hot headed" is clearly a red-flag for *me* to put the brakes on this 'relationship'. 



> And pulling a woman by her arm away from a potential suitor, and then raising your voice and saying that she is acting poorly is a LOOOOONG WAY from the actions of a murderer. It's exactly that kind of histrionics that lead to many reasonable people looking at allegations of abuse the way the townspeople of the fairy tales looked at the pleas of the boy who cried wolf.


It's funny that you mention "histrionics", because that's exactly what I saw that the fiancé engaged in by calling her a **** and grabbing her arm...

I


> would certainly add to your list the importance of boundaries


. 

Yes, boundaries ARE important. Hence, it's why I keep stressing the importance of self-awareness and self-control. 

Vega


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Abuse to me, is any touch/word/action that I don't like. Something that has stepped over my spoken boundaries.

Arm grab? Probably not something I'd say was abuse, depending o the grab. Lord knows I'd have ripped away from him and given him some words.

I have friends who joke with their mate and call names while doing it. That wouldn't be ok with me. It's ok for them...


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

It is funny that battery is now coming into play.

If you look at the facts, simple assault and battery are pretty clear. For this simple act, you could spend the next year of your life in jail or 4000$ in fines. 

However, it's absolutely absurd. 

The thing about cops, like previously stated, is that they are aggressive. But, I am pretty certain that the fiancee knows this or anyone in a relationship with a cop AND that is most certainly one of the MAIN reasons this girl is with him. She feels protected, well taken care of.. her man is a cop so it gives her so called 'bragging' rights to her g/f's.. but the minute the guy touches her out of reasonable jealousy for her (in MOST people's opinions) acting out of the scope of a healthy relationship. She should not be at a club without him (there are 1000's of other places to spend a girls day) talking to a random guy (it doesn't matter what was said - it was bad timing) while the place is closed late at night. What is the point of getting all dolled up to just stand against a wall to barely hear what your g/f's are saying and to watch random people hook-up???? Honestly, I think this girl is looking for something else.. it seems like she feels ignored plus he works late shifts and the officer could possibly have had previous issues with this girl because I am willing to bet all money that this wasn't her first rodeo.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Vega said:


> This is where you an I don't agree, Entropy. As much as you may want to see his behavior as "normal", I see it as a symptom of a larger issue. I mean, the OP also relates that the fiancé became "hot headed" when she asked him, "Why don't you trust me?" Why didn't he simply answer a reasonable question? I can guarantee you , that the answer to that question has little to do with testosterone, and much to do with an _immature_ ego.


No I am saying that our spouses / significant others can see risk where we cannot. We have tunnel vision. We re too close to the trees when we are shooting from the hip. We need our partners point of biew to get a complete picture.

Think wingman.

My wife can sense things about another womans intentions I will be oblivious too. The reverse is also true.

We want to believe we are in complete control of ourselevs and we are not. So Trust me ... is laughable. Because we have blind spots.

It does have much to do with both maturity and testosterone. I am not condoning his behavior. But I am not declaring her squeaky clean either. Nothing she did warranted what he did. However we do not know if it warranted a legitimate jealous reaction. testosterone does impact how a man reacts to another approaching his mate. It is not just primal. It is Darwinian. Being mature and being passive and accepting are not the same thing.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MrK said:


> I do.


Are people really this naive? LOL. The guy was using the old I like your friend approach. This is what you do when you go after the wingwoman. Geeeezzzzzzz.

The guy was trying to close the sale. He only need to close one out of ten sales to be a player. maybe he just gets a number or gets freinded on FB. He has a lead and is following up.

This is just another GNO thread with a twist ... the cop variation.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> Are people really this naive? LOL. The guy was using the old I like your friend approach. This is what you do when you go after the wingwoman. Geeeezzzzzzz.
> 
> The guy was trying to close the sale. He only need to close one out of ten sales to be a player. maybe he just gets a number or gets freinded on FB. He has a lead and is following up.
> 
> This is just another GNO thread with a twist ... the cop variation


O.k. Let's just say you're right for a moment...

The guy was using the I-like-your-friend approach (by the way, the OP told us that the guy NEVER ONCE ASKED HER ABOUT HERSELF, so let's keep that in mind)

Even if he eventually asked her for her number, doesn't her fiancé trust her enough to say *NO* or "I'm *ENGAGED*" or BOTH ???

Just because he asks, doesn't mean he automatically 'gets'...


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Why should he? Not everyone trusts so easily nor should they have to. For some.. trust is earned. Besides... he doesn't have to ask her about herself to be interested in her. Plenty of "player" types think they are slick like that.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

wise said:


> But, I am pretty certain that the fiancee knows this or anyone in a relationship with a cop AND that is most certainly one of the MAIN reasons this girl is with him. She feels protected, well taken care of.. her man is a cop so it gives her so called 'bragging' rights to her g/f's..
> .


Oh brother...I suppose she'll DUMP him if he decides he no longer wants to be a cop, because she's just THAT shallow...sheesh. I was married to a cop for 7 years and believe me, I wish he WASN'T a cop after I saw how much he wielded his 'power' like a sword. Some people NEVER should be given that much authority over others...



> but the minute the guy touches her out of reasonable jealousy


Once again Wise, you're not telling the WHOLE story. 



> She should not be at a club without him


If you read OP's posts, you'd see that she DOES have GNO's. She said she went out because she hadn't had a GNO in about 5weeks. So, I think her fiancé is probably very aware of this. She went out with her FRIENDS. Maybe her FRIEND'S are all 'attached' as well. 



> ...talking to a random guy (it doesn't matter what was said - it was bad timing) while the place is closed late at night. What is the point of getting all dolled up to just stand against a wall to barely hear what your g/f's are saying and to watch random people hook-up???? Honestly, I think this girl is looking for something else.. it seems like she feels ignored plus he works late shifts and the officer could possibly have had previous issues with this girl because I am willing to bet all money that this wasn't her first rodeo


You really DO like to jump to conclusions, Wise. What a shame.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Vega said:


> Oh brother...I suppose she'll DUMP him if he decides he no longer wants to be a cop, because she's just THAT shallow...sheesh. I was married to a cop for 7 years and believe me, I wish he WASN'T a cop after I saw how much he wielded his 'power' like a sword. Some people NEVER should be given that much authority over others...



Sorry just had to quote this because it's something i completely agree with. My brother is one of those power hungry types and he's a sheriff now.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

OMG this all sounds so horrible :rofl:

I can't stand bars/clubs. But dang...no good can come of it. Wtf. Confused.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It seems to me that they were both in the wrong and both have some thinking to do before they take the leap into marriage.

She has to worry about his reaction, both verbal and physical. He has to worry about her boundaries & whether he will have to deal with GNO issues later on.

If maturity reigned, there would be some serious talking about these things at this point, in my opinion.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Vega said:


> O.k. Let's just say you're right for a moment...
> 
> The guy was using the I-like-your-friend approach (by the way, the OP told us that the guy NEVER ONCE ASKED HER ABOUT HERSELF, so let's keep that in mind)
> 
> ...


I would trust her not to put herself in that situation. But this is why they needed to discuss the boundary. See we do not know what they agreed to. But since this was not mentioned we can assume for lack of any info that this was not properly discussed and like most couples "assumed" a boundary. Big mistake.

Venue matters. Peoples personal boundaries erode with familiarity. A person worth trustung is one who realizes that some activities come with more risks. It becomes playing just the tip at some extreme. 

Again women tend to trust other men way more than their SO trusts other men. So I am saying that judgement gets imparied in those situations. I would have much less trust for a woman who puts herself in those situations than one who is more self aware. She is hanging out woth singles who are looking for guys. Duh!

I am not big on trust alone. Trust is earned. Marriage is about love and respect. Trust is a by product. There is no person on this planet I trust more than my wife. But if she was into this kind of stuff I would lose trust in her.

Running into my wife in a marriage friendly environment builds trust. Running into her at 2am in a bar talking to some random guy. Not so much.

I have no business hanging out with single friends who are looking to hookup.

One factor is culture. There re areas of the country that have a bar culture more than others. I grew up in the northeast. My dad was a part time bartender. He was a blue collar Irish German guy. Not the same as clubbing but it is cultural. I like to drink on occasion. But not everyone sees hanging outbat bars and especially clubs as harmless.

The old I'm married or I have a boyfriend is no real deterent to anything. In fact tell me you have a boy friend and I will use that fact to my advantage. It will help me get you to let your guard down. If you did not want to be hit on and did not enjoy the scene you would not be there. Whcih tells me I have a chance. I may not but I will play the odds. At least i will have some fun flirting and I may see you again or contrive a reason to contact you. If I can get your friend to FB me I can likely contact you. Your friend is awesome but I like you somehow better. You seem. More real to me. I like that.

... _Hey ... could you give us another round please?_

So what do you and your fiance like to do for fun?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> It seems to me that they were both in the wrong and both have some thinking to do before they take the leap into marriage.
> 
> She has to worry about his reaction, both verbal and physical. He has to worry about her boundaries & whether he will have to deal with GNO issues later on.
> 
> If maturity reigned, there would be some serious talking about these things at this point, in my opinion.


This^^^


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> I would trust her not to put herself in that situation.


See, that's just it. It's not a "situation". Chances are pretty damn good that the guy wasn't going to drag her by the hair, into the back alley and have his way with her. He didn't ask her anything about herself. And while her fiancé interfered, it doesn't mean that if the fiancé did NOT interfere that the guy would have started asking her about herself. We just have no way of knowing. 



> But this is why they needed to discuss the boundary. See we do not know what they agreed to. But since this was not mentioned we can assume for lack of any info that this was not properly discussed and like most couples "assumed" a boundary. Big mistake.


I agree. 



> Again women tend to trust other men way more than their SO trusts other men. We can't generalize. If this is what you believe, can you come up with a statistic? So I am saying that judgement gets imparied in those situations. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. I would have much less trust for a woman who puts herself in those situations than one who is more self aware. Women don't necessarily 'put themselves' in that position. She is hanging out with singles who are looking for guys. Duh! If I was a single guy, I would NOT tend to believe this about all women, especially because I would KNOW that married women go to bars for drinks and laughs without 'looking' for fun





> *I am not big on trust alone*. Trust is earned. Marriage is about love and respect. Trust is a by product.


Ha! I KNEW this whole thing had to do with TRUST! 

But I see it a little differently. I see TRUST as the reason for me to continue a relationship; not 'love' or 'respect'. Trust to me is the foundation of ALL relationships. Without it, there can be no relationship. 



> The old I'm married or I have a boyfriend is no real deterrent to anything. In fact tell me you have a boy friend and I will use that fact to my advantage. It will help me get you to let your guard down. If you did not want to be hit on and did not enjoy the scene you would not be there. Which tells me I have a chance. I may not but I will play the odds. At least I will have some fun flirting and I may see you again or contrive a reason to contact you. If I can get your friend to FB me I can likely contact you. Your friend is awesome but I like you somehow better. You seem. More real to me. I like that.
> ... _Hey ... could you give us another round please?_
> 
> So what do you and your fiance like to do for fun?


:smthumbup: LOL!! Sorta like, "You 'had' me at 'hello'...


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Vega said:


> See, that's just it. It's not a "situation".
> 
> *That is an opinion. I think the bar scene is a situation.*


You can choose not to generalize but I choose to see tendencies and my experience sees this tendency. It is a natrual tendency that has evolved over time. We see this over and over in the discussion about OSFs. Women consistantly fall on the OSF bandwagon saying the guys have no sexual interest in the them and the guys come in at a high level laughing at this.

There is zero benefit to just be PC and saying that tendencies do not exist. They do exist. We see them everyday. Men and women are not the same. They can have equal rights but they are different. 

Understanding tendencies has to do with survival. You have to have the ability to see risk in a situation. I can choose to walk down a dark ally by myself. I see three hooded men in the shadows ( makes these anyone you want, it does not matter ). I choose to not go down that ally. Did I make a disresepctful judgement of them? Who cares I say. I was avoiding a risk. There was no gaurantee I was in danger. But what a fool I would be to take such an unnecessary risk. 

Everything we do in life is a value judgement of risk versus reward. Everything. It is just a matter of degree. Blind trust is not being a critical thinker. It is ambivalent even. If someone has blind trust do they really care? I do not have blind trust with things that really matter to me. If I did not really care about a woman I might not care what she does. It also comes down to investment. The longer one is together the greater the investment you have in them. It becomes a related rates problem. One gains trust over time, but cares more over time. Once a woman has your children you care even more. So a mother of two engaging in this scene would be much more alarming even though one would have developed more trust. She should know better for one.

I am an Engineer so I do not typically use absolutes like all and never. But I do understand a bell curve. And indeed who said the guy hitting on her was single? Guys do not care about ALL women. They care about the 10% success rate. Or 20% or whatever. Woman say they have boyfriends all the time. Basically if you are there with a gorup of women interacting with guys ... you are in play. You put yourself in play.

Anytime I say women, do not read ALL women. It gets very tedious to have to quailify every nuance. So I am not going to do that and being PC has zero value add. Just read the pamplet on what is PC today. That is not helpful.

I hear folks say that there realtionship is based on trust and I shake my head. Not that trust is not nice, just that that love and respect are what matter. Those that focus on trust tend to be in my experince trying to assert thier independence... their freedom. They may have been in a bad relationship and felt they lost control so they are all about trust me. Some folks have the highest priority is their freedon to do what they want when they want with whom they want. Just trust them. Other are more about what is good for the relationship. They go out of their way not to disrespect the other. To not put the relationship at risk. Priorities. Moving from single to engaged to young married to long term married are stages few people can do without issue. The realize they have to give up something to get another.

Now at the end I was being a bit cheeky. It was an example. The strongest PUA is no PUA at all. It is just being genuine. Being confident. You may not be out to bed this woman. But you are out to experience more of this woman. Get to know here. Enjoy her company and let things progress as they may. That is great. But this is also how single people find other people. Is this appropriate for marrieds or even enagged folks?
Some people say you are single until the wedding. I am one of those who says by the tie the wedding comes around it is a formality. Once you are exclusive you should not be out like you are single. Many think being engaged is tentative and you should still keep looking. Some feel that marriage is this way too.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Blondilocks said:


> Don't you mean your ex-fiance? Nasty name, accusation and hands-on behavior gets him eliminated from potential husband material.


Yup. Violence is only acceptable when its a woman slapping her boyfriend for putting the moves on her
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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