# Mental Illness



## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm still a newbie here, but I've been lurking the last few days since my first post. Something new has come to light, and I need to hear some opinions on this.

My WH doesn't know that I have almost all of his passwords, and that I've been watching for a while...ever since he had the beginnings of an A with my best friend (internet flirting via email). I nipped that in the bud before it became something I couldn't forgive, but it made me keep an eye on things. 

Recently, I found an email he sent to an old flame, telling her he loved her, etc. For me, that was it. There had been other things in our history, but this felt like the last straw.

Now, we've discovered via some testing he did to make sure he wasn't getting Alzheimer's like his mother, that he has neurotic depression, anxiety, paranoia, and class B personality disorder. Under all the descriptions I found about class B personality disorder, what I understood this to mean was that in some cases it could include behavior such as sexual promiscuity.

So, with in our vows of "for better or for worse," does his mental state mean I should try to help him overcome this behavior, or does that simply become his excuse to get around dealing with it? I have not confronted my WH with the fact that I know what he's been up to. Mostly because at the point in which I do this, he will change his passwords, and I'll be in the dark. 

This is my own warped way of having some control in knowing what he's up to at any given point based upon his emails to others. So, instead of confronting him, I'm preparing to leave when the time is best for me. I worry that I'm too willing to bale out in this situation because I've been through it before with a previous spouse.

Quaker


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

Quaker,

I struggle with this too. How much of my fWW behavior was induced by her myriad of mental illnesses that stem from her childhood? How accountable can I hold her for our marriage problems? How much is my codependency wanting to help fix or making me feel super guilty on the days I when I can't muster to care and can only resent my needs not being met in the relationship. I am finding balance is hard to come by...where does the affair overlap with her, my, and our dysfunction? Would I be a terrible person if I left?


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

I have a parent with a personality disorder and depression who has cheated on my other parent since I'm pretty sure I was a small child. I love both of them but I've wanted them to get a divorce for years. Unfortunately they're still married.

Personality disorders aren't curable.



> So, with in our vows of "for better or for worse," does his mental state mean I should try to help him overcome this behavior, or does that simply become his excuse to get around dealing with it?


No, you're under no obligation. There's also "till death do us part" which I'm assuming is also a vow but people split all the time after saying that as well. You leaving him might get him to recognize he needs to change his behavior but if you stick around chances are all you'll be doing is enabling it.



> I worry that I'm too willing to bale out in this situation because I've been through it before with a previous spouse.


There's nothing wrong with learning from previous relationships and using that experience to address the problems in other relationships.


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

wtf2012, something you said really hit home with me. I'm a "fixer." I want to help, but that's just co-dependent, enabling behavior in some cases. Finding balance within myself is something I'm hoping for. I find myself wanting to be on a mountain somewhere with very little, if any, human contact. I want to find a balance within myself so that I can see crap like this long before it can affect my life, or the life of my daughter...the way it is right now.

Jasel, your comment about enabling my WH's behavior also hit home. I have a history of feeling as though I've failed when someone else's behavior is about THEM, not me. It took a while to realize that I had done nothing wrong when married to my previous spouse. It took 2 years and an epiphany following a life-threatening car wreck for me to realize that I had not done anything wrong. His actions were about HIM, not about me. 

In examining my marital vows, I know it perhaps sounds hypocritical to focus on parts of it without acknowledging that "till death do us part." In having a previously failed marriage, also involving infidelity, I have asked once again, what is wrong with ME? And do I give up too easily? Was I too willing to end things with my ex? So, in struggling with those personal questions, it affects how I choose to react in this marriage in regards to D or R.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Quaker said:


> In examining my marital vows, I know it perhaps sounds hypocritical to focus on parts of it without acknowledging that "till death do us part." In having a previously failed marriage, also involving infidelity, I have asked once again, what is wrong with ME? And do I give up too easily? Was I too willing to end things with my ex? So, in struggling with those personal questions, it affects how I choose to react in this marriage in regards to D or R.


If they cheated on you THEY'RE the ones who gave up on the marriage as far as I'm concerned. All you can do is decide whether to stick around after your spouse checks out of the marriage due to their own behavior. But you shouldn't feel obligated to.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Sadly, I think a LOT of people are dealing with WS's who have mental illness but they don't have the benefit of a diagnosis or diagnoses for their spouses, as you and I have.

First, it's important to remember that mental illness may help explain but it doesn't excuse. 

Depression and anxiety, and to some degree, paranoia can be treated - and when those are treated, the most severe aspects of the personality disorder can be "softened." 

If he's shown any willingness to follow up on dealing with his diagnoses, then you could consider helping him with that - but only you can decide if you've had enough. 

It can be a nightmare trying to convince someone to get treatment and then to deal with all the privacy barriers (either you're allowed into sessions or he has to sign releases for people to be able to speak to you) so that you can inform his physician (psychiatrist for meds) and counselor (the one who does the ongoing therapy) about the TRUTH about his behavior, because he isn't likely to tell them all of it.

There's no easy answer here, but if you're struggling I think maybe that suggests one last try to help him might be order. That way if you do leave the marriage, you won't wonder if you should have tried to help him with his mental health problems before getting out.

Who did the testing? If it was your primary care doctor who initiated it (assuming you both see the same doc), you could schedule an appointment with him/her to discuss the diagnoses and treatment options and prognosis without worrying about having releases signed. Even though it might be terribly embarrassing, you could share the info about flirting with your friend and the email to the old flame so that the doctor could get the picture about what's really going on and deal with the mental health aspect accordingly.


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

Class B includes that trifecta, swetecynamome. It also includes antisocial personality disorder.

Jasel, my initial emotional response was the same as yours. I just don't want to make it easy to jump for D, though. I automatically went back to that part which starts reexamining myself and my part in the relationship which might have led to WH's behavior. In the end, it's still his crap, not mine. 

You also mentioned that mental illness is not curable. The question, I suppose, is can the behaviors be modified by the person with the mental illness?


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

swetecynamome, my name here is not of religious significance, though I do have to deal with that somewhat, having been the granddaughter of a Freewill Baptist preacher who performed the marriage to my first husband. Quaker was just a reference to how my world was shaking and "quaking" when DDay occurred. It's misleading, I know, but it's also something my WH would never associate with me should he "see" me on any forums. Your comments have helped me feel a bit more solid today.

hopefulgirl, although my initial response has been to end this...on my terms and my timing, I will probably have to give it one more try just to know I didn't give up too easily. I still love the man whether he deserves it or not. In fact, I actually feel a lot of pity for him. That's not the same as forgiveness, though.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Quaker said:


> You also mentioned that mental illness is not curable. The question, I suppose, is can the behaviors be modified by the person with the mental illness?



It can be managed with therapy and medication, depending on the particular illness (bipolar in my parent's case) but these methods aren't foolproof. And it depends on how willing/compliant the individual is with treatment. How they deal with stressful events and situations, etc. And if they're even willing to admit they have a mental/personality disorder.


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

I'll be mulling over these responses more later. I'm going to indulge myself now to my first orthopedic massage. Maybe it will help with the stress headache I've had for days now. 

Later,
Quaker


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Quaker, my STBXH suffers from recurrent major depression/anxiety/PTSD. In one of the few MC sessions he was willing to attend, the counselor pointed out that his illness helps to explain his otherwise unacceptable behavior towards me and his children, but that it was not a free pass to abuse his family. At the time, I thought I could continue in the marriage provided he sought and continued treatment. Well, that didn't work. 

I've struggled a lot with the "better or worse" and "sickness and in health" vows we both took. But we also took the "foresaking all others" vow, which he broke repeatedly. The vows only work when both parties choose to live by them. I did stand by him during treatment. I told him that was a condition for continuing our marriage. He then blew off treatment and sought out other women. The vows were never intended to be one-sided.


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

Pluto2, THANK YOU! Without knowing it, that is exactly what I was doing...expecting me to stick by my vows when he has not. The big question, now that I have more knowledge about his mental condition, is whether or not I want to stick around to give him yet another chance to follow those vows. 

My head is still spinning, not just with DDay, but also with his mental illness and my own feelings about those vows. 

The massage helped my body, but not my soul. My heart hurts.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

FYI, there are only a few things that one spouse can do that release the other spouse from their obligation under marriage. The biggest one of them is adultry. (After all it is one of the 10 commandments) So in my opinion, you are released from your obligation once the other spouse crosses the line. Doesnt say anything about whether the cheating spouse did it sane or insane....just says adultry. Just sayin....


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Hoosier said:


> FYI, there are only a few things that one spouse can do that release the other spouse from their obligation under marriage. The biggest one of them is adultry. (After all it is one of the 10 commandments) So in my opinion, you are released from your obligation once the other spouse crosses the line. Doesnt say anything about whether the cheating spouse did it sane or insane....just says adultry. Just sayin....


In addition to either *emotional or physical adultery*, other Biblical grounds for divorce include *abandonment*, and *mental or physical cruelty to a spouse, child, or some other family member.*


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Jasel said:


> Personality disorders aren't curable.


Some of them are curable. And some can be treated successfully enough that the individual in question can live a healthy, normal life, even if that person will never be "the norm". Mental illness and personality disorders are not automatically a death sentence, nor do they make a relationship with someone hopeless or not worth the time and effort.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Quaker said:


> Class B includes ....includes antisocial personality disorder.


Yes, Quaker, the Cluster B personality disorders (PDs) include AsPD (Antisocial PD, aka sociopathic), Narcissistic PD, Borderline PD, and Histrionic PD. My understanding is that the new diagnostic manual that will be released this May (DSM-5) will eliminate the separate category for Histrionic PD because it is being consolidated with NPD and AsPD. 

Of the remaining three PDs in Cluster B, an essential difference is that, whereas BPDers are capable of truly loving you (albeit in a very immature way), narcissists and sociopaths are not. Another basic difference is that, whereas BPDers are emotionally unstable, narcissists and sociopaths are very stable.

I therefore suspect that, because you describe your H as being stable and not loving you, he was diagnosed primarily as being narcissistic or sociopathic. I say "primarily" because the vast majority of people diagnosed with having one PD also have strong traits of one or two others as well. And, in addition, they typically have at least one of the "clinical disorders," e.g., depression, PTSD, anxiety, bipolar, or ADHD. 

Because those clincial disorders usually arise from chemical changes in the body, they often are treated very successfully by swallowing a pill. In contrast, the PDs do not arise from chemical imbalances and thus cannot be treated with medication. The reason that PD sufferers are usually given medications is to treat the co-morbid clinical disorders, not the PD itself.


> You also mentioned that mental illness is not curable.


I agree with Jasel that PDs are not curable. The problem, of course, is that there is no disease to cure. Science has not yet proven, to a certainty, what it is that causes PDs. The general view, however, is that they are not caused by a disease but, rather, an interruption in the emotional development process that occurred in early childhood (e.g., by abuse or abandonment) or occurred even earlier in the womb (e.g., due to genetics or the expression of those genetics as the fetus developed).


> The question, I suppose, is can the behaviors be modified by the person with the mental illness?


Having a PD does not give one a free pass to abuse other people. It therefore is important that the PDer be held fully accountable for his own behavior. This means he must be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of his own bad behavior. Otherwise, you are simply allowing him to continue behaving like a spoiled child and GET AWAY WITH IT. In that way, you are an enabler.

For BPDers, there are many excellent treatment programs available that will teach the very skills that the person did not learn in early childhood, e.g., how to better manage emotions, how to intellectually challenge intense feelings, and how to self sooth. It is very rare, however, for high functioning BPDers to be willing to stay in such therapy long enough to make a real difference in their behavior.

As to the narcissists and sociopaths, I am less familiar with the prognosis. My understanding, however, is that no treatment programs have been found that will make substantial changes in their behavior.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

First, let me preface that I'm no expert on mental disorders. But I can give you a layman's opinion.

If someone cheats because of a mental disorder, by all reasoning it could happen again, if treatment is not successful. My life experience has taught me that counseling and drug therapy is hit and miss at best.

I wouldn't want to stake my future marital happiness on the notion that my cheating spouse could be miraculously cured by psychiatry or counseling; nor would I be confident that they weren't using it as an excuse to avoid the deserved consequences.

Just my 2 cents.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Quaker,

We take the mental illness as like a physical illness as when a loved one is ill, we rear them back to health and then all is back to old goodness.

It doesn`t work that way with mental illness or with personality disorders.

It is not that if they can be cured (which they can`t be cured unfortunately, most of the time). 

What matters is, such a poor soul, had never been able to properly know you, care for you or love you, right from the beginning.

All we had, with such a lover(?), right from the beginning was a dream we had.

What now ?


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

With certain PDs, people can be taught how to function properly (such as in the case of something like BPD). A person who can then present as "normal" and is no longer reliant on therapy or meds would then be considered "cured". 

Of course no one should take abuse or stick around if the person with the illness/PD is unwilling to take responsibility and get help to manage it...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

Uptown, I think your post has helped me more than any other. I've been scouring the internet, trying to find something which could help me understand my WH's behavior in relation to fidelity. The lines between all these Cluster B PDs has been blurring for me as I could see several of his behaviors that fit into different categories.

My WH has admitted to me recently that as a young teenager he began to lie about everything under the sun for no reason he could give his parents or himself. He said it in a way which made it SEEM as though he felt remorse for this as well as some confusion. He blames this period of his life for the way his parents and his sister have treated him.

More of what you said made sense, too, when you got to the part about abandonment. I'll explain more about this in a moment.

I didn't get to be there with my husband for his appointment with the social worker who went over the results with my husband. I highly suspect that he does not want me to know the actual diagnosis as it was explained to him. He has simply handed me the paperwork they gave to him to explain his diagnosis. He is still in a bit of shock over it. 

As frightening as it sounds to me when I say it out loud, I would say that my husband is primarily sociopathic. His idea of "I'm sorry" is "I'm sorry you feel that way." Aside from the PD stuff, he was also diagnosed with depression, anxiety and paranoia. None of his depression has been helped at all with medication. He's currently taking Vibryd and Valium which he says enable him to remember his dreams for the first time in his life. Some are pleasant dreams. Others are horrible nightmares which, upon waking, he can not get back to sleep for the rest of the night.

Let me give a bit more personal background for my WH. WH was adopted when he was 6 months old. His adoptive parents doted on him until they adopted a daughter from a different family a few years later. As he describes it, his adoptive sister was the "golden child" while he was the "disappointment." He was an average student while his sister made straight A's, and he was often given the admonishment that he needed to be more like his sister. 

After he graduated from high school, he escaped the farm (where he felt as though he had been imprisoned) to his Aunt and Uncle's home where his Aunt doted on him and treated him very well as he started his freshman classes at a nearby university. He admits that he did not speak to his adoptive parents for a couple of years, nor did he return to see them for 3 years following an incident in which they pulled him out of college and took away his car because he had failed to check the oil in the vehicle and the motor burned up. During this time, his adoptive parents burned everything in their home which had been his. They burned photos. They burned ribbons from races he had won. They destroyed any trophies he had as well as any scrapbooks or momentos of his childhood.

He eventually returned as the prodigal son, but was never forgiven for having left. His adoptive parents, according to my WH, never showed any affection to each other, much less to their children. He never saw his parents kiss, hug or hold hands. They were civil to each other, but never loving.

When he was 50, a friend of his found his biological mother. He then discovered the event surrounding his birth. His biological mother was a divorced mother of three in 1952. She became involved with a young man whom she loved and became pregnant. He planned on marrying her, but somehow news got back to her that he also had gotten another young lady pregnant in their town at the same time. She sent him a message to him never to come near her again. He honored this, according to my husband. His biological mother kept the pregnancy a secret from the rest of her family with the exclusion of her other 3 children. Two of those children were too young to remember my WH's birth, but the oldest was 16 years old and helped her mother through the delivery.

So, for all these years in which he already felt unloved by the adoptive family, he had also been an ugly secret kept in the dark by his biological family. 

His biological mother, however, did embrace him warmly when he found her. She felt much sorrow about the past. His youngest sister embraced him as family, but the other two siblings have remained distant and cool toward him.

His adoptive mother became deathly ill in May of last year. His adoptive sister and he fought over what to do about her care after she had a massive heart attack at age 92. She had begged them for years not to put her in a nursing home. The adoptive sister wanted to hire 24/7 nursing care to come into the home. We could not afford to pay half of that, and we suggested moving into her home to take care of her, and his sister went ballistic. In the end, however, we did move in with MIL. I had been a CNA in the past, and it actually fell to me to care for my MIL. I did it out of love for my H because I certainly did not love the way my MIL had treated my H in the 5 years I had known her. My developmentally disabled daughter also helped in MIL's care, often helping me to bath MIL and to spoon feed her towards the end.

Neither my WH nor his adoptive sister shed a tear during the time their mother was dying. They did not cry at any point after she died either. Instead, it's been a fight over what was left behind, especially since my MIL had played a warped mind game with the two of them for the past 30 years, disowning whichever child was out of favor, only to flip that a few years later when the other child was out of favor. Playing them against each other for their whole lives...even after her death.

Before receiving this diagnosis, I would have simply described my husband as shy and reticent, with some anxiety about being in crowded places. My family full of Scots-Irish/Cherokee southern ******* loudmouthed fellows who love to hunt and fish made him a nervous wreck at times. He would simply find a quiet room and withdraw from the noise.

I think I have pitied my WH in all of this, feeling so sorry that he had never known the kind of familial love I had experienced. And yes, I've enabled him without meaning to do so.

As for treatment, my WH has already decided that it's not an option because it will be too expensive and that our insurance probably won't cover it.

I don't see him changing who he is or adjusting his behaviors. I am his 7th wife. He can't get married again in this state. 

My WH is a cake eater, too. Long story for another time, but this most recent EA was not his first offense. It IS the last one I will experience, though. The toughest part is deciding WHEN is the best time for me. 

I'm caught between still loving the fellow I thought he was and dealing with the fellow I've discovered him to be.

I need a break here...my hands are cramping from typing...bbiab.


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

WH will be coming home soon, and he's not aware of my being here on TAM. I want to keep it that way. So, I'm going to be quiet until tomorrow. Keep it coming folks. All of this is helping me sort out my thoughts and feelings. I don't feel quite as alone as I had been feeling, and I don't feel quite as stupid for having believed in my husband.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Quaker said:


> My WH has admitted to me recently that as a young teenager he began to lie about everything under the sun for no reason he could give his parents or himself.


Strong PD traits typically do not start showing until the early teens, at which time the person is experiencing hormone changes and is trying to learn how to form lasting LTRs outside the home. This does not mean, however, that the emotional damage was done at that time.


> He blames this period of his life [i.e., the early teens] for the way his parents and his sister have treated him.


If he has strong NPD or AsPD traits, the damage to his emotional core likely happened before he was five. At that young age, a trauma is very damaging because it is the very time that a child must learn how to form a strong integrated sense of self -- and how to love himself and others. If the damage had occurred in his early teens, as he suspects, it would have been far less damaging and he would still be able to love.


> More of what you said made sense, too, when you got to the part about abandonment.


Yes, his being repeatedly abandoned during early childhood could explain how he became disordered. Whether or not he has a strong abandonment fear, however, is a separate issue. You mention nothing about seeing such a fear. I mention it only because such a fear is strongly associated with BPD and, in the Cluster C PDs, with Avoidant PD. That is, BPDers and Avoidants have a strong fear of abandonment. If you would like to read more about it -- and how it interacts with the BPDers' fear of engulfment -- please see my post in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522.


> I didn't get to be there with my husband for his appointment with the social worker who went over the results with my husband. I highly suspect that he does not want me to know the actual diagnosis as it was explained to him. He has simply handed me the paperwork they gave to him to explain his diagnosis.


It is unusual for a person suffering from a Cluster B personality disorder to ever be told. I am especially surprised to hear that the therapist actually wrote it down as the diagnosis. It is well known -- both inside and outside the psychiatric community -- that this information is routinely withheld and never recorded.

One reason for the withholding is that such a diagnosis almost certainly means that insurance will not cover the treatments. Another reason is that, on receiving such a diagnosis, nearly all high functioning Cluster B sufferers will immediately quit therapy. This is why therapists are loath to make the diagnosis and will, instead, simply list the co-occurring clinical disorders (all of which are covered by insurance), such as depression and anxiety.


> As frightening as it sounds to me when I say it out loud, I would say that my husband is primarily sociopathic.


My experience is that most sociopaths, narcissists, and BPDers are basically good people who were burdened, in early childhood, with severe limitations. If they have strong PD traits, they don't make good spouses because they are too emotionally immature (unless they undergo at least several years of weekly therapy). 

They nonetheless can be very productive members of society and serve as good casual friends. The man I'm closest to at work, for example, is a narcissist whom I enjoy being around because he is so darn interesting and entertaining. I always remind myself, however, not to try to be a close friend to him -- because he simply is incapable of being a true friend.

Similarly, I usually enjoy having casual friendships with high functioning BPDers. Indeed, if I were to pick a group of people to party with, most of them would be the BPDers in my life. They have a spontaneity and purity of expression that makes them far more fun to be around than folks who are closer to the norm. I had a serious problem with a BPDer only because I made the mistake of falling in love and marrying her. Getting close to a BPDer, of course, triggers her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment.

As to sociopaths, the vast majority of them never kill anyone because they don't want to go to prison. They aren't stupid. Their problem is not being stupid but, rather, being manipulative and unable to love. Hence, unless you are married to one, or unless they are often breaking the law, it usually is extremely difficult to spot a sociopath. 

In my personal life, the only sociopath I have been able to identify is a friend of the family who was exceptionally generous and kind toward me and my exW. We visited him and his W out on the West Coast and stayed several days in their home. And they came and stayed with us on the East Coast for several days. Both of them were thoroughly enjoyable, charming people. He treated her like a princess and was a gracious host to us.

The only reason I know he is sociopathic, then, is that -- after they had been married for five years -- he suddenly announced he was leaving her. It had taken him five years to quietly steal away every dollar of her mother's generous inheritance, making it appear that his business was losing money. Actually, he was moving all the funds to an offshore account, where it remained out of reach during the divorce process.

It's a mistake to think that sociopaths and narcissists are not empathetic. Many of them have an enormous degree of _cognitive_ empathy, i.e., the ability to know what another person is feeling. That ability makes them all the more skilled at manipulation. What is missing, of course, is _affective _empathy, i.e., the ability to sense what another person is feeling.


> My MIL had played a warped mind game with the two of them for the past 30 years, disowning whichever child was out of favor, only to flip that a few years later when the other child was out of favor.


That game, called "triangulation," is commonly used by narcissists, sociopaths, and BPDers as a way to control their friends and family members. They will play one person off against the other until the uncooperative person starts to fall back into line. Then they will flip it to favor the other person instead.


> Before receiving this diagnosis, I would have simply described my husband as shy and reticent, with some anxiety about being in crowded places.


I therefore suggest you read about Avoidant PD to see if the red flags for it sound very familiar. It is described at Avoidant personality disorder - PubMed Health. Keep in mind that, although Avoidants can love people deeply, many of them are seen hopping from one relationship to another. 

That is done because their fear of abandonment is so severe that they will preemptively abandon a lover to avoid suffering the terrible pain of being abandoned by her. Yet, if your H truly has never loved you (or his other wives and children), I don't see how he could be an Avoidant.


> As for treatment, my WH has already decided that it's not an option because it will be too expensive and that our insurance probably won't cover it.


If you want to know what it is you are dealing with, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist (not a social worker) -- for a visit or two ALL BY YOURSELF. Your best chance of obtaining a candid assessment of a PD sufferer, ironically, is to go to a professional who has not seen him and is not treating him. 

In this way, the professional will be ethically bound to protect only YOUR interests, not those of your H. Relying on your H's therapist for advice during the marriage is as foolish as relying on his attorney's advice during the divorce. It is prudent to obtain candid advice from a professional who is ethically bound to protect only you.


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## swetecynamome (Feb 15, 2013)

My most recent "boyfriend" post divorce couldn't say I'm sorry either, simply "I'm sorry you feel that way." He didn't show much empathy or concern although he had learned enough about human behavior to know what's going on and overall, could pull off concern at certain times and over most of the course of our being together. He did say he felt things, he just didn't know always how to express them and therefore remained silent when the average person would have expressed him/herself. He can also be easily overwhelmed by others and by too much noise. As an emotive person, I would find it draining to be with him because over time being with him sucked all my energy. And I did things for his family - his girls, his mom, him. I guess I can often be in the overly-involved category especially when I meet my temperamental opposite and sense there are needs. 

He has Asperger's and some of the symptoms I've described and you've described at least in this most recent post sound like that but of course I have no idea. I read a lot about Asperger's when we first started dating last fall because I've never met anyone quite like that. I know he also has a hard time holding onto relationships but I began to get an idea of why as the weeks went on. I wouldn't have been able to make a marriage out of it though it's the wrong time for me. 

I'm sorry to hear about his diagnosis of sociopathology but does that necessarily mean the full-blown picture we get of this through the media, etc? I'm bipolar, am treated, but am constantly bombarded with messages that the "reason" people do certain things that they do is because they have my disorder. It takes a lot more than a diagnosis to explain someone's choices. 

The family history you give for your H has some familiar family themes with my story. I was adopted at almost 2 and had troubled interactions with my adopted mother though now that I'm 45 I know she did what she could. That doesn't mean things didn't effect me and I have had someone characterize me as "cold." I don't know what to say. I've raised a pretty well adjusted child successfully, so...I am divorced, yes, but I'm not completely without caring friends, etc. I am flawed. I don't think the coldness is accurate, but everyone is due their opinion.

I'm just saying there are some things here I recognize. I think there is something to a disorder that can throw off one's judgment and that's probably one of the most heart-breaking things to face.

It sounds like you have done a tremendous amount, and you've had a child with special needs to tend to. On top of that, it sounds like you're not getting a lot of feedback that what you are doing matters to those you think it would matter the most to. A lot of people have difficult childhoods. Some people cry even more when an abusive parent dies because not only are they crying for any opportunities they may have missed to somehow try to patch things up, at least in their own heart, they may be crying for their own lost selves. Then again, some people can just wear you to the bone so you don't feel anymore. I'm curious to know if he's ever cried. I asked my recent and perhaps last boyfriend this question and he said he had cried only once that he could remember and that's when he was four, when his parents divorced, but maybe that's not all that unusual for a lot of males who have been forced to be stoic, told to take it on the chin, I don't know.

I'm not saying anything definitive. I'm not qualified. And I haven't even read all the posts completely since the last time I posted, although I have read your most recent two posts and Uptown's recent post. 

I'm just saying, you've done a lot. I hope there are ways you can nourish yourself.

I don't see a way to "like" Uptown's post, but if I could, I would. I only have this question about the Asperger's.

p.s. Also, for him to say he never loved you....I don't know, just throwing this out there: Could it be possible a guy just forgets his emotion and focuses mostly on what's in the immediate present? I had this struggle in my marriage too, even when things were ok. Whatever was in the moment defined the whole relationship for my ex. I don't know. Just a thought.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I was Pm'd not long ago and one of the posters asked if they could call me and they did, after I posted that my WS had a brain injury back in the 90's. They went on to explain the behavior that one of their children is having after a brain injury and it has caused havoc.

Perhaps that is my WS's problem. It really does not matter. She has been cheating on me since at least 1999 and her behavior has gotten out of control in the last year while we were in false R.

I am a counselor and we all cringe at PDs. Fortunately I do not have any at this time and if I did I would refer them to someone else. I just don't feel the need to work with them. I deal with some fairly complex psychological conditions but, PD's, sociopaths, pyschopaths and a few other conditions I would refer somewhere else. We have discussed these things with our consultant and he has the same thoughts as most of the staff here does. Not worth the time and effort.

Can't say what I would do in your situation but it is a horrible way to live with someone with these conditions.


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

It's been a rough week. I had knee surgery on Monday. Wednesday I came down with a stomach virus which kept me in bed with a high fever and chills. All the while, I've had all this stuff on my mind. It's so much to take in at once, and I just want to curl up in bed one more day. All of this is difficult to wrap my brain around, and for now I'm going to have to withdraw for just a bit as I think about it. I'll be back, though. I recognize the therapeutic nature of getting this all out. Just not right this moment. Thank you all for responding. I've been soaking it all in.


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

Back with a bit of information...

Uptown, here is what I found in my husband's diagnosis. "Significant psychiatric distress to include neurotic depression, anxiety, paranoia, and cluster B personality disorder." 

He had been worried because he had discovered that his biological mother had Alzheimer's. He had been having some problems lately and wanted to rule out early onset Alzheimer's. 

Something else he was told about the testing, too. He was told that he tested as a savant in some areas, but "as an idiot" in other areas. (The stuff in quotes was his version, not that of the social worker who explained the diagnosis to him.) 

Oh, and he was tested by a neuro-psychologist who works with an assistant who is the social worker. I do not understand why he was tested by a neuro-psychologist who didn't follow up with him herself. 

He came home extremely agitated and upset because he had just been told that he would require the type of psychiatric care that insurance does not pay for as well, which makes sense with what you've told me. He's still a bit flipped out about the cluster B PD. He doesn't even know what that means, so he has been looking it up, trying to figure out where his diagnosis lies in all of that.

I've not even confronted him with what I know about this latest betrayal. I see it as a serial sort of thing which won't change. The more I looked at his past, the more clear the pattern of behavior became. 

Okay...I can't keep my thoughts clear enough just yet. Still running a fever, and now my special needs daughter has the bug hitting her full force. Trying to keep her fever down to avoid breakthrough seizures is taking a toll on my nerves as well. 

swetecynamome, oddly enough my H can show emotions in regard to movies easier than in his own life. I once thought he was able to shed a tear at a movie because he was sensitive. But when we are in the midst of any argument, he shuts down. Not an ounce of emotion to real life moments which should cause lots of emotional responses.

Thorburn, I feel like I'm in hell.


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## swetecynamome (Feb 15, 2013)

Hang in there Quaker. I just wonder if, for your own health and that of your daughter, you should begin planning some kind of possible exit strategy so that if just the right sequence of events lead to needing to get out, you know right where to go, what to do, and what to do next. I don't mean as in being in your being in danger necessarily, but at the very least, your acting on behalf of preserving the quality of your life and that of your daughter. I don't know your situation exactly. It may mean literally preserving your life. If I were you I would start getting acquainted with your laws, looking into legal counsel, making a plan in terms of how to handle where you might live, how to secure funds. At least using that as a mental foothold to get you through what you may need to do. It's good to have the back up plan. Sometimes you need it even if it's just a mental/morale boost for you now. And maybe you need to start acting on it to feel better. It may become a real necessity in the near or further away future. It's good to be ready. I'm not the most qualified person to speak about this but I had my ducks in a row the moment I left the house and mine was a different situation but I felt the need to leave precipitously. Take care.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Quaker said:


> He was told that he tested as a savant in some areas, but "as an idiot" in other areas.


Quaker, it sure would be interesting to know what two areas they were referring to.


> He had just been told that he would require the type of psychiatric care that insurance does not pay for as well, which makes sense with what you've told me.


That doesn't make sense to me because, given that PDs are usually accompanied by at least one clinical disorder like depression, therapists continue to treat the person for his PD but record the diagnosis only for the comorbid clinnical disorder. They generally regard the clinical disorders as "billable" and the PD disorders as "unbillable." Hence, it should not be difficult for him to find a therapist willing to treat his PD and list it as treatment for his depression, anxiety, and paranoia.


> He's still a bit flipped out about the cluster B PD. He doesn't even know what that means, so he has been looking it up, trying to figure out where his diagnosis lies in all of that.


I'm still very surprised the psychologist told him he has a PD. Generally, high functioning PDers like your H are not told, especially when a Cluster B disorder is involved. By the way, Quaker, I hope you and your D recover quickly from the bug that has bedeviled you.


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

Swetecynamome, I have certainly been thinking a lot about an exit strategy. I've wondered if I could R any of this, too. I'm in turmoil still.

Uptown, I think I'm recovering from the bug at last. This is the first time I've felt clearheaded since Monday morning. Whew!

I understand what you're saying about what usually happens with treatment of PDs. Do these things vary by state at all? I admit to being in one of the more backward places in the nation. I'm still rather upset about the neuro-psych not seeing my husband again after the testing. She spoke with the two of us briefly after he finished the testing and told us she'd let us know her findings. (By the way, I also spent a lengthy period of my time in the waiting room filling out a questionnaire as well.) She asked him, in front of me, whether or not he had had any thoughts of suicide recently. He started to say no, but then he looked at me, and he knew that somehow I knew. Then, he admitted that yes, he had thought about it.

I know it's not for my sake he would refrain. It would be for his daughter and the coming granddaughter due in the spring. I would say at this moment the only person he has ever TRULY loved has been his daughter. No spouse past or present has ever had that place in his heart, not even her mother. I think part of his emotional turmoil since leaving her mother is in believing he abandoned his daughter just as his family abandoned him. 

I have to say he's been a devoted father. Always. I've spoken to his daughter about this, and she has never felt abandoned. EVER. This was his own perception rather than the reality of things.

So, now that my H HAS been told about the PD, what can he do about it. I do know that he goes to at least 4 depression forums which he thinks I don't know anything about. I monitor him there frequently. He is severely depressed and is afraid that I'm about to bail simply because of the diagnosis.

Sadly, I still love my husband, though I find his behavior reprehensible when it comes to the EA pattern.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

This is a horrible situation to be in.

You should confront the OW and clue her in, tell her she is abusing the trust of a mentally ill person.

You might need to look at having him committed to a facility. A friend had to do this when her husband went the same way. Though he never cheated on her, to my knowledge.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Quaker said:


> I understand what you're saying about what usually happens with treatment of PDs. Do these things vary by state at all?


Quaker, not in any way that I'm aware of. Yet, as in any profession, there is great variance in the skill sets of individual psychologists. I suspect that the reason she told him he had Cluster B disorders is that, compared to the Alzheimer's she was testing for, finding he only had a PD was actually a good thing.


> I'm still rather upset about the neuro-psych not seeing my husband again after the testing.


Don't be. Treating PDs is not her field. She likely is trained to spot dysfunctional behavior that is caused by Alzheimer's, brain tumors, and other types of brain damage.


> So, now that my H HAS been told about the PD, what can he do about it?


If he has strong traits of a Cluster B disorder, it is extremely likely he won't do ANYTHING about it. But, to answer your question, what he should do is to find a good psychologist who has lots of experience in treating Cluster B disorders. Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), for example, is one of the several therapies that has proven very successful in teaching such disordered individuals the developmental skills they never had a chance to learn in early childhood. Another helpful treatment program is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT). These therapies teach, e.g., how to better manage one's emotions, how to do self soothing, and how to intellectually challenge intense feelings.

That, at least, is what could be done to help him if he primarily suffers from strong BPD traits. To the extent he has NPD or AsPD, however, I don't know what can be done. With respect to AsPD, the Mayo Clinic website says:Antisocial personality disorder is notoriously difficult to treat. People with this disorder may not even want treatment or think they need treatment. But because antisocial personality disorder is essentially a way of being, rather than a curable condition, affected people are likely to need close, long-term care and follow-up. People with antisocial personality disorder may also need treatment for other conditions, such as depression, anxiety or thyroid disorders.​I therefore suggest that he see a good clinical psychologist to see if she agrees with the Cluster B diagnosis and, if so, to find out which PD seems to be dominant.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

To be honest, there's only a limited amount a psychologist can do, here. Neurologists and psychiatrists (who specialise in such disorders) would be indicated, as psychologists cannot prescribe the medications you husband might require.


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

I apologize for seeming to abandon this thread. I've got my brain and heart in a lot of turmoil. Initially, I felt R was the last thing I'd want. I cut myself off from my emotions until I was walking around numb, going through the motions. Sad that hubby never even noticed.

Well, a conversation this weekend led me to finally confront my WH. Now, I feel as though I've unleashed a swarm of killer bees inside my head. I've cried more in the last two days than I did the first two weeks after Dday. 

He's agreed to transparency and wants to work on the marriage. Problem for me is that while I expect full disclosure from him, I don't necessarily want him seeing my emails about TAM either. Frankly, at the moment, it feels like my quiet place where I can come and hear the truth without his input.

He's agreed to MC. He was already expecting me to want to bail over the recent PD diagnosis. Funny. I can handle his mental disorder. 

I went to the doctor today...3-month check up after my vitamin D levels had been low. I ended up breaking down with the nurse and telling her about Dday. Then, when the P.A. asked how things were going aside from my health, I broke down yet again. Afterward, I spent half an hour in the parking lot of Fred's Dollar Store, sobbing.

Why does it all to come bursting forth now? I had myself under control, and I was using my brain. Now, my brain isn't worth a flip. 

I see spouses on here together, and the last thing I want to do is bring my WH here. TAM has some good things to teach him, but in some regards, I'm not sure it would change anything.

I've written out the NC letter for him to rewrite tonight. I've written to the OW...and to be fair, she was never a fully engaged participant to the EA. She let my husband reminisce, but he started telling her that he loved her, etc., she did tell him that she could be a friend to my WH, me and my daughter. She let him know that she wasn't up for an affair and that she'd never do anything to hurt me or my daughter. She has not emailed him since then. So, exposing the "OW" doesn't really apply this time. I SHOULD have done it the first time he tried this, though. The OW was my "best friend" in a circle of friends. She convinced everyone that I had gone off my rocker and showed them the emails between her and my husband...the ones written when they were planning my birthday party...not the ones which came after that. So, with those "friends" saying, "Well, we don't want to take sides," by listening to her side and not letting me say a word, they chose her side of the story. My husband later told me that she had been putting out stuff about me that I was losing my mind, or that perhaps I'd had a stroke or something...She even asked my husband if he had noticed that I hadn't been myself. He told her he didn't know what she was talking about. 

Well, I FELT crazy when I found those emails, and they were mild flirtation...but it was the kind of stuff that leads to cheating. Inappropriate innuendos. My husband actually came clean at this point and showed me everything. I didn't ask for transparency, though, and I swept it under the rug all by myself.

Doc asked me if I want an appointment with a psychiatrist to help me through the stress of this. Not sure if it will help me, but I'm willing to try. Even though I confronted WH this weekend, I still feel like a pressure cooker that's about to blow any second.

I can't even address his mental illness just yet. 

I'm not someone who screams at people. Last night was the closest I ever came to throwing something, and when I saw it was my phone, I put my hand down. But I want to scream at him.

I'll be back. Just gotta go stare at a wall or kick some dirt in the garden. Not sure which. I need a good bat right now...but then I might succumb to the urge to break everything possible on his pretty truck.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Mental/Personality disorders just explain possible reasons someone does something. I don't believe that people have such little control over themselves. I think PD's/MD's are becoming more and more prevalent because we as a society have such a hard time with personal responsibility. We don't want to just accept that someone else is mean/evil/selfish/etc. and leave it at that.

I would rather see more people be held accountable and a few people with ACTUAL mental issues be held for their actions, even if it's from mental issues, than to have less people accountable which allows people who DO HAVE control, an excuse and an out.

Sometimes you just gotta say..








And move on with your life.


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

Well, I'm not giving him an out just because of the PD diagnosis. He still knows right from wrong. 

And thanks for the graphic. It made me laugh while I was crying and hiccuping.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Quaker said:


> Well, I'm not giving him an out just because of the PD diagnosis. He still knows right from wrong.
> 
> And thanks for the graphic. It made me laugh while I was crying and hiccuping.


Glad you saw the humor in it. Sometimes we all just need a good chuckle.

Now did you read it with the irish accent is the question?


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## Quaker (Feb 18, 2013)

Oops! No, lol, I'm afraid I didn't read it with an Irish accent...more like a twisted Appalachian version of my Scottish ancestors. My elders still use words I have to explain if I'm out of the state. LOL


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Quaker said:


> Oops! No, lol, I'm afraid I didn't read it with an Irish accent...more like a twisted Appalachian version of my Scottish ancestors. My elders still use words I have to explain if I'm out of the state. LOL


LOL, yes we must remember Mad Stephen was Irish.

LOL the most interesting use of words I've ever experienced was when I went to compete at the Virginia Highland Games (20 years ago LOL). The exclamations that happen during a good turning of the caber is pretty unique.


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

Quaker, I'm sorry you're going through this. If your husband has a cluster B PD, those things don't change. A good place of support for PD issues is Out of the FOG - Personality Disorder Support -- TAM is great, but check out those boards too, for other folks in a similar situation.

Just had a discussion about this, only it was suspected bipolar here http://chumplady.com/2013/03/dear-chump-lady-is-she-just-a-f*ck-up/ (To get the link to work, put the u back in the eff word) You might find it helpful.

IMO, it doesn't matter why someone is abusing you (and I think infidelity is abuse). Let's say he was hitting you. Does it matter that he hits you because he's drunk, he's mentally ill, or he's a hateful jerk that wants to hurt you? At the end of the day, you have to protect yourself from people who harm you, whatever their reasons. Detach with love, if you must. But detach. You need to love yourself more. 

If he's really cluster B (NPD, borderline, sociopath) -- he doesn't CARE. No empathy there. It's hard to wrap your mind around. Please take care of yourself.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

chumplady said:


> If he's really cluster B (NPD, borderline, sociopath) -- he doesn't CARE. No empathy there. It's hard to wrap your mind around. Please take care of yourself.


I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. People with BPD are perfectly capable of caring for, loving, and even empathizing with others. But the issues do get in the way of showing that consistently, especially with people they're closest to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

chumplady said:


> If he's really cluster B (NPD, borderline, sociopath) -- he doesn't CARE. No empathy there.


I agree with Soulpotato that BPDers typically are capable of much caring and intense love (albeit an immature form of love). They also are capable of empathy -- both cognitive empathy and affective empathy. Indeed, two of the most beloved women in the world -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- were both BPDers, if their biographers are to be believed.

As Soulpotato indicates, however, BPDers cannot consistently sustain those feelings because they are emotionally unstable. Hence, their problem is not an absence of empathy and caring but, rather, a lack of emotional stability. This is why it is sometimes said that a BPDer's feelings are "a mile wide and an inch deep."

As to the narcissists and sociopaths, I would agree with you that they are incapable of caring. They also are incapable of affective empathy (i.e., sensing what others are feeling). Many of them, however, have strong cognitive empathy (i.e., knowing what other people are thinking). That keen perception enhances their ability to manipulate others.


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