# Post from a hypocrite (me)



## wilderness

(EDIT TO ADD: I AM NOT MARRIED. I AM DIVORCED.)


My critics are going to have a field day with this one. And rightly so. If there are Christians that are listening, please give me some feedback and make it as harsh as you want.

So…prior to getting together with my wife, I was involved in a very intense 5 year relationship with the woman that at the time I thought would become my wife. To make a very long story short, there were huge mistakes made by both of us during the relationship. The relationship ended very, very badly. She left me for the man she married. I said horrible things as a result. I did horrible things as a result. That relationship has been up until this time a wound that never healed on my soul. I was the bad boy, he was the stable guy, and she married the stable guy and dumped the bad boy. That was 7 years ago.

A few days ago she contacted me out of the blue. I was standoffish at first, cynical. I thought maybe her husband stepped out on her and she was going to use me to get back at him. I wasn't really going along with it. But she told me she had something to tell me. She told me she made a mistake, that she never should have gotten married. That she was never attracted to her husband, that she couldn't sleep the day that she got engaged. That she wanted a divorce. She said she had been watching me all this time, that she cried when she found out I was getting married. Cried when she found out about my child. She said she wanted a divorce either way, but asked if I would have her in the future.

The emotion that I felt when I heard this overwhelmed me. I had previously thought that I had meant nothing to her. And I gave in to temptation and had sex with her. She says she wants to divorce either way, but that she wants a future with me.

Is there anyway this could be made right in God's eyes? I feel horrible about harming an innocent man and child. I know I shouldn't have had sex with her. But I still love her, more than ever. 

Feedback?


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## Philat

wilderness said:


> My critics are going to have a field day with this one. And rightly so. If there are Christians that are listening, please give me some feedback and make it as harsh as you want.
> 
> So…prior to getting together with my wife, I was involved in a very intense 5 year relationship with the woman that at the time I thought would become my wife. To make a very long story short, there were huge mistakes made by both of us during the relationship. The relationship ended very, very badly. She left me for the man she married. I said horrible things as a result. I did horrible things as a result. That relationship has been up until this time a wound that never healed on my soul. I was the bad boy, he was the stable guy, and she married the stable guy and dumped the bad boy. That was 7 years ago.
> 
> A few days ago she contacted me out of the blue. I was standoffish at first, cynical. I thought maybe her husband stepped out on her and she was going to use me to get back at him. I wasn't really going along with it. But she told me she had something to tell me. She told me she made a mistake, that she never should have gotten married. That she was never attracted to her husband, that she couldn't sleep the day that she got engaged. That she wanted a divorce. She said she had been watching me all this time, that she cried when she found out I was getting married. Cried when she found out about my child. She said she wanted a divorce either way, but asked if I would have her in the future.
> 
> The emotion that I felt when I heard this overwhelmed me. I had previously thought that I had meant nothing to her. And I gave in to temptation and had sex with her. She says she wants to divorce either way, but that she wants a future with me.
> 
> *Is there anyway this could be made right in God's eyes?* I feel horrible about harming an innocent man and child. I know I shouldn't have had sex with her. But I still love her, more than ever.
> 
> Feedback?


No.


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## EleGirl

Yes there is a way to get redemption. Since I'm not sure of your denomination, perhaps you should talk to your pastor/priest.

What about getting right with your wife? That's a huge issue too.


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## wilderness

EleGirl said:


> Yes there is a way to get redemption. Since I'm not sure of your denomination, perhaps you should talk to your pastor/priest.
> 
> What about getting right with your wife? That's a huge issue too.


I'm divorced 3 years ago.


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## DoF

Not sure what god has to do with ANY of this.

You are currently married correct? are you happy?

Why in the world would you allow or even talk to your Ex wife. That was a HUGE mistake. 

If you just ignored her call, where would you be today?

Put it this way, just the simple act of picking up a phone and talking to your Ex all of the sudden changes EVERYTHING?

It seems like your ex cheated on your correct? Did you forget that fact? 

So let's say you get back with her, what makes you think she won't do that again? 

History if the best indicator of the future.


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## wilderness

DoF said:


> Not sure what god has to do with ANY of this.
> 
> You are currently married correct? are you happy?
> 
> Why in the world would you allow or even talk to your Ex wife. That was a HUGE mistake.
> 
> If you just ignored her call, where would you be today?
> 
> Put it this way, just the simple act of picking up a phone and talking to your Ex all of the sudden changes EVERYTHING?


NO. I am not married. She is.


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## wilderness

rowan said:


> i find it interesting that you are concerned about harming an innocent man, yet you don't seem to mention the irreparable harm you've also done to your own wife and child.
> 
> You say your love the ex more than ever. Again, where's your wife in all this?
> 
> You ask about making this right with god. Again, no mention of making this right with your betrayed wife.
> 
> Dude. Seriously?


i am not married!!!!!!!!!!!


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## EleGirl

wilderness said:


> I'm divorced 3 years ago. (not my decision)


Ok so you are divorce.

It does not change my answer about getting right with God. Talk to your pastor/priest.


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## DoF

wilderness said:


> NO. I am not married. She is.


Great, in that case, find a woman that won't cheat on you like your ex did?

Karma is a *****......


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## Rowan

Ok, so at least you're not betraying a wife of your own with this little charlie foxtrot you've got going. 

You say your ex left you for her current husband. Do I take that to mean she cheated on you? If so, are you really surprised that your cheating ex-girlfriend is now cheating on her husband?

Did you love her "now more than ever" before the two of you had sex, or only after?


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## Rowan

wilderness said:


> i am not married!!!!!!!!!!!


Yes, I know. Your OP was extremely unclear and I was typing that while you were explaining your current marital state for us. Which is why I deleted my post within seconds of having put it up.


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## wilderness

Rowan said:


> Ok, so at least you're not betraying a wife of your own with this little charlie foxtrot you've got going.
> 
> You say your ex left you for her current husband. Do I take that to mean she cheated on you? If so, are you really surprised that your cheating ex-girlfriend is now cheating on her husband?


It wasn't like that. She broke up with me for him but she wasn't cheating on me with him.


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## wilderness

EleGirl said:


> Ok so you are divorce.
> 
> It does not change my answer about getting right with God. Talk to your pastor/priest.


I will. And I've been praying. 

Honestly, I can't believe the self righteous a-hole I've been. It all sounds great to preach that cheating is horrible, but then you get faced with the situation..and I failed. And it's important to note that I've had a million chances in the past to have sex with married women and I've never been tempted.

But I know it was wrong to have sex with her. I just don't know what to do from here.


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## over20

Friend.....YES! GOD FORGIVES ALL SIN. THE ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN IS THAT AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT. 

You have done what the prophet David did on the OT. Go to Scripture to repent and fast to allow the Holy Spirit to change you. Break all contact NOW!!!!

She has an equal part in this situation too.

Once you truly repent your sin is washed away through Jesus blood....this is the season on Lent and Easter is Sunday..use this time to walk through Christ's steps as he goes to the cross...Become a new man in your faith.


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## EleGirl

wilderness said:


> I will. And I've been praying.
> 
> Honestly, I can't believe the self righteous a-hole I've been. It all sounds great to preach that cheating is horrible, but then you get faced with the situation..and I failed. And it's important to note that I've had a million chances in the past to have sex with married women and I've never been tempted.
> 
> But I know it was wrong to have sex with her. I just don't know what to do from here.


You are human. Humans sin. If no one could find redemption, then there would be no reason to even try to live our lives in the right way after a major sin. 

The first thing is, of course to never do it again.


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## Plan 9 from OS

If you believe in God, of course you can get redemption. If you are Christian, you should KNOW that all sins can be forgiven.

Regarding your emotions, I can see why you would be feeling like sh!t. No doubt your feelings of betrayal at the hands of your wife were extremely strong. You probably cried, yelled, screamed and asked God why he is putting you thru this ordeal. Now you became the POS OM who will no doubt be the object of HIS personal hell when he inevitably finds out.

He'll be the one asking for all the gory details of what you two did, whether you were bigger than him, did you two do things that she would never do for him, did you two wear a condom, etc. etc.

No doubt you know the answer to this, but if you truly want redemption, you need to show true contrition and remorse. You can't show that without confession. With confession, you will likely never see your mistress again. So how much do you want to be forgiven?


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## just got it 55

wilderness said:


> (EDIT TO ADD: I AM NOT MARRIED. I AM DIVORCED.)
> 
> 
> My critics are going to have a field day with this one. And rightly so. If there are Christians that are listening, please give me some feedback and make it as harsh as you want.
> 
> So…prior to getting together with my wife, I was involved in a very intense 5 year relationship with the woman that at the time I thought would become my wife. To make a very long story short, there were huge mistakes made by both of us during the relationship. The relationship ended very, very badly. She left me for the man she married. I said horrible things as a result. I did horrible things as a result. That relationship has been up until this time a wound that never healed on my soul. I was the bad boy, he was the stable guy, and she married the stable guy and dumped the bad boy. That was 7 years ago.
> 
> A few days ago she contacted me out of the blue. I was standoffish at first, cynical. I thought maybe her husband stepped out on her and she was going to use me to get back at him. I wasn't really going along with it. But she told me she had something to tell me. She told me she made a mistake, that she never should have gotten married. That she was never attracted to her husband, that she couldn't sleep the day that she got engaged. That she wanted a divorce. She said she had been watching me all this time, that she cried when she found out I was getting married. Cried when she found out about my child. She said she wanted a divorce either way, but asked if I would have her in the future.
> 
> The emotion that I felt when I heard this overwhelmed me. I had previously thought that I had meant nothing to her. And I gave in to temptation and had sex with her. She says she wants to divorce either way, but that she wants a future with me.
> 
> Is there anyway this could be made right in God's eyes? I feel horrible about harming an innocent man and child. I know I shouldn't have had sex with her. But I still love her, more than ever.
> 
> Feedback?


Wilderness No judgement only this

It sucks to be human

55


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## wilderness

Plan 9 from OS said:


> If you believe in God, of course you can get redemption. If you are Christian, you should KNOW that all sins can be forgiven.
> 
> Regarding your emotions, I can see why you would be feeling like sh!t. No doubt your feelings of betrayal at the hands of your wife were extremely strong. You probably cried, yelled, screamed and asked God why he is putting you thru this ordeal. Now you became the POS OM who will no doubt be the object of HIS personal hell when he inevitably finds out.
> 
> He'll be the one asking for all the gory details of what you two did, whether you were bigger than him, did you two do things that she would never do for him, did you two wear a condom, etc. etc.
> 
> No doubt you know the answer to this, but if you truly want redemption, you need to show true contrition and remorse. You can't show that without confession. With confession, you will likely never see your mistress again. So how much do you want to be forgiven?


I already told her that God comes first in my life. But I believe she is getting a divorce. Is there anyway for this relationship to continue once there has been a divorce filed?


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## over20

At this point I think you need to REALLY search Scripture and get strong Godly counsel....you need to put the breaks on these feelings..she MIGHT reconcile and stay with her husband and then you will be really let down.

God is a God of new beginnings and forgiveness, but he also allows discipline and trials in a Christian's life to "grow them up". God hates sin and wants to purge it from our life.....focus on growing your faith friend........don't let Satan distract you with thoughts of the OW now. 

These feelings you have for the OW are very addictive right now...they will cloud your Christian judgement.


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## ReformedHubby

wilderness said:


> I already told her that God comes first in my life. But I believe she is getting a divorce. Is there anyway for this relationship to continue once there has been a divorce filed?


Are you serious right now? Lets not put God in this. As a Christian I've done all kinds of dirt and I never put God's name in it. Its a cop out in my opinion. You've been on TAM long enough to know how these things work. How unhappy was she really? They all say this. Had you done the the right thing she may have just gone back to her husband. But instead you nuked some other guys family. Why don't you ask him for forgiveness? That's where you should start. I'm surprised that so many TAM posters that normally rake cheaters over the coals are trying to comfort you. You don't deserve that in my opinion. You deserve to be put on Cheaterville and exposed.

Some may find it odd that a former wayward like myself is coming down so hard on you. The reason is because even I had a code. I would never break up another man's family. You don't deserve our compassion. He does.


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## anchorwatch

Life will never cease to amaze me. Its not all black and white is it Willderness? That's what forgiveness if for. You found out you're imperfect like the rest of the world too. 

Figure this one out. Don't go back for more. Tell her what you learned to be right and know to be honorable. Do your penance. Make sure you apologise to her family. Then walk away


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## wilderness

over20 said:


> At this point I think you need to REALLY search Scripture and get strong Godly counsel....you need to put the breaks on these feelings..she MIGHT reconcile and stay with her husband and then you will be really let down.
> 
> God is a God of new beginnings and forgiveness, but he also allows discipline and trials in a Christian's life to "grow them up". God hates sin and wants to purge it from our life.....focus on growing your faith friend........don't let Satan distract you with thoughts of the OW now.
> 
> These feelings you have for the OW are very addictive right now...they will cloud your Christian judgement.


Yes, it's true. And I told her that I don't want her feelings for me clouding her judgment to her husband. I don't think she should have a lifetime sentence of no sex imposed upon her, but her husband deserves the chance to try and meet her needs. How can he get that with me around? But she doesn't think there is any way. 

The tricky part is she told me all this before we had sex. I don't really believe her marriage is going to survive, but who am I to use that belief against her husband? I'm no one. I really f-ed up when I crossed that bridge. This would be much easier to deal with if I didn't go there.

I guess I kind of felt that he stole me away from her, so why can't I do the same? That my situation was different. Uggg…make me sick to think about my distorted thought processes.

I want to be a man of honor and character, not a thief and destroyer.


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## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> I already told her that God comes first in my life. But I believe she is getting a divorce. Is there anyway for this relationship to continue once there has been a divorce filed?


And I'm sure it will work out perfectly too just like clockwork... If you've seen CWI you'll probably discover that the AP will tell you anything you want to hear until the rubber hits the road. Don't be surprised that if her BH finds out and confronts her, you get thrown under the bus faster than a roofie using pervert...

When people find out they will become part time parents, they tend to change their tunes...


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## DoF

wilderness said:


> It wasn't like that. She broke up with me for him but she wasn't cheating on me with him.


Nothing wrong with that.

SO this is a classic 80/20 rule. She chased the 20% you couldn't give her and ended up losing 80% you provided her with/always gave her.

Now she wants that 80% again.......

All this religious talk is really screwing me up a bit. Crazy to think that people actually consider/think like this? Wow


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## Plan 9 from OS

ReformedHubby said:


> Are you serious right now? Lets not put God in this. As a Christian I've done all kinds of dirt and I never put God's name in it. Its a cop out in my opinion. You've been on TAM long enough to know how these things work. How unhappy was she really? They all say this. Had you done the the right thing she may have just gone back to her husband. But instead you nuked some other guys family. Why don't you ask him for forgiveness? That's where you should start. *I'm surprised that so many TAM posters that normally rake cheaters over the coals are trying to comfort you.* You don't deserve that in my opinion. You deserve to be put on Cheaterville and exposed.
> 
> Some may find it odd that a former wayward like myself is coming down so hard on you. The reason is because even I had a code. I would never break up another man's family. You don't deserve our compassion. He does.


There is a certain element of hypocrisy in the CWI world. It's a lot harder to state the truth whenever it's "one of our own".


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## wilderness

ReformedHubby said:


> Are you serious right now? Lets not put God in this. As a Christian I've done all kinds of dirt and I never put God's name in it. Its a cop out in my opinion. You've been on TAM long enough to know how these things work. How unhappy was she really? They all say this. Had you done the the right thing she may have just gone back to her husband. But instead you nuked some other guys family. Why don't you ask him for forgiveness? That's where you should start. I'm surprised that so many TAM posters that normally rake cheaters over the coals are trying to comfort you. You don't deserve that in my opinion. You deserve to be put on Cheaterville and exposed.
> 
> Some may find it odd that a former wayward like myself is coming down so hard on you. The reason is because even I had a code. I would never break up another man's family. You don't deserve our compassion. He does.


I don't think his family is going to survive whether I'm in the picture or not. At least that is what she says. Could she be lying? Of course it's possible. But I never knew her to be a liar. And that's the truth.


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## Openminded

I do admire your willingness to put this out there after the comments you've posted to Zanne and others, based on religious grounds, who find themselves in these situations. It is indeed difficult when you find yourself in a similar situation, isn't it. I suggest asking God for forgiveness and then staying away from her until she's divorced. Sounds as if she wanted to make sure you were waiting in the wings before getting out. You know the statistics.


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## over20

Friend, she is lying to her husband right now....she broke her vows......did she tell him?


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## karole

Wilderness, I think you should go back to Zanne's thread and read what you wrote to her.


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## wilderness

Plan 9 from OS said:


> And I'm sure it will work out perfectly too just like clockwork... If you've seen CWI you'll probably discover that the AP will tell you anything you want to hear until the rubber hits the road. Don't be surprised that if her BH finds out and confronts her, you get thrown under the bus faster than a roofie using pervert...
> 
> When people find out they will become part time parents, they tend to change their tunes...


I asked her that question, about the part time parents…
she said she had already discussed this with him. That it would be a 50/50 split with no child support ever and if one person or the other started making way more money than the other they would help out without the courts help.

I really don't think she is going to change her tune, but again, my judgment probably isn't to be trusted right now.


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## MattMatt

wilderness said:


> (EDIT TO ADD: I AM NOT MARRIED. I AM DIVORCED.)
> 
> 
> My critics are going to have a field day with this one. And rightly so. If there are Christians that are listening, please give me some feedback and make it as harsh as you want.
> 
> So…prior to getting together with my wife, I was involved in a very intense 5 year relationship with the woman that at the time I thought would become my wife. To make a very long story short, there were huge mistakes made by both of us during the relationship. The relationship ended very, very badly. She left me for the man she married. I said horrible things as a result. I did horrible things as a result. That relationship has been up until this time a wound that never healed on my soul. I was the bad boy, he was the stable guy, and she married the stable guy and dumped the bad boy. That was 7 years ago.
> 
> A few days ago she contacted me out of the blue. I was standoffish at first, cynical. I thought maybe her husband stepped out on her and she was going to use me to get back at him. I wasn't really going along with it. But she told me she had something to tell me. She told me she made a mistake, that she never should have gotten married. That she was never attracted to her husband, that she couldn't sleep the day that she got engaged. That she wanted a divorce. She said she had been watching me all this time, that she cried when she found out I was getting married. Cried when she found out about my child. She said she wanted a divorce either way, but asked if I would have her in the future.
> 
> The emotion that I felt when I heard this overwhelmed me. I had previously thought that I had meant nothing to her. And I gave in to temptation and had sex with her. She says she wants to divorce either way, but that she wants a future with me.
> 
> Is there anyway this could be made right in God's eyes? I feel horrible about harming an innocent man and child. I know I shouldn't have had sex with her. But I still love her, more than ever.
> 
> Feedback?


Wow! She kept you as her plan "B" for seven years?:scratchhead:

:wtf:

It's too late for her. Buyer's remorse left the building a long, long time ago.

*Do not contact her, do not let her contact you. She is a danger to your marriage.*


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## Anon Pink

Wilderness, according to the CWI play book, you now have to confess to her husband and her children, if she has any. You also have to confess to her family and her husbands family. Right? Isn't that the CWI play book, to further hurt and humiliate the WS?

Like Anchor said, like isn't so black and white. What you did, wasn't to hurt and abuse her husband or children. 

No contact with her until she is divorced. Let her deal with her side of the street.

What's she gonna do when she realizes the bad boy is now a man of faith? You are being sorely tested here.


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## wilderness

over20 said:


> Friend, she is lying to her husband right now....she broke her vows......did she tell him?


She has not told him as of yet. I think she doesn't know if it's the right thing to do. Do you? I told her that I had already gone too far in interjecting myself into the marriage and that the decision was hers. Basically that her marriage is none of my business.


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## ReformedHubby

wilderness said:


> I don't think his family is going to survive whether I'm in the picture or not. At least that is what she says. Could she be lying? Of course it's possible. But I never knew her to be a liar. And that's the truth.


I feel as though you are lying to yourself. You won't to believe that her family will end whether you are in the picture or not because you want her for yourself. You also want to tell yourself that she was unhappy so that you can feel better about dating her once the divorce is done.


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## DoF

wilderness said:


> She has not told him as of yet. I think she doesn't know if it's the right thing to do. Do you? I told her that I had already gone too far in interjecting myself into the marriage and that the decision was hers. Basically that her marriage is none of my business.


What she did to her husband, she will do to you.....chances are.

That's besides the fact that she left you for another man already.....

Don't be that guy.


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## Anon Pink

And post yourself on cheaterville!


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## Plan 9 from OS

Anon Pink said:


> Wilderness, according to the CWI play book, you now have to confess to her husband and her children, if she has any. You also have to confess to her family and her husbands family. Right? Isn't that the CWI play book, to further hurt and humiliate the WS?
> 
> Like Anchor said, like isn't so black and white. What you did, wasn't to hurt and abuse her husband or children.
> 
> No contact with her until she is divorced. Let her deal with her side of the street.
> 
> *What's she gonna do when she realizes the bad boy is now a man of faith?* You are being sorely tested here.


I think wilderness is being used by this woman TBH, but I'm wondering the same thing. She was attracted to him in another life. In the world of alpha/beta labels, he's significantly more beta now. How will that square with her now?

On top of that, how can you trust someone that cheated on her husband? Even if she stated that "she made a mistake in marrying him", if she was always wanting you, there were PLENTY of times from the moment she got the ring from her BH until the day of the wedding that she could have called it off and looked you up. She didn't. Why do you think that was?


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## wilderness

Anon Pink said:


> *What you did, wasn't to hurt and abuse her husband or children. *
> 
> .



No, it wasn't. Thank you for your kindness. You could have really taken this opportunity and run with it. And you didn't. We don't always (or better said, we seldom) agree, but in many ways you have earned my respect, Anon. There is good in you.


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## over20

karole said:


> We are all human Wilderness and make mistakes; however, what you have done is very disheartening, especially considering the sermons you preached to Zanne.


Good point.....this is where God can work in Wilderness' life about not judging other's.....tables are turned....a very hard lesson for anyone to learn....but can be done with God's help


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## Plan 9 from OS

Anon Pink said:


> Wilderness, according to the CWI play book, you now have to confess to her husband and her children, if she has any. You also have to confess to her family and her husbands family. Right? Isn't that the CWI play book, to further hurt and humiliate the WS?
> 
> Like Anchor said, like isn't so black and white. *What you did, wasn't to hurt and abuse her husband or children. *
> 
> No contact with her until she is divorced. Let her deal with her side of the street.
> 
> What's she gonna do when she realizes the bad boy is now a man of faith? You are being sorely tested here.


True, but the counterpoint is that the outcome was the same whether his intent was malicious or not.


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## over20

wilderness said:


> She has not told him as of yet. I think she doesn't know if it's the right thing to do. Do you? I told her that I had already gone too far in interjecting myself into the marriage and that the decision was hers. Basically that her marriage is none of my business.


I think she should confess...confessing doesn't always lead to divorce.... I know you want it to...but think of the OM he may want to reconcile which would be a very good thing!


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## ReformedHubby

Anon Pink said:


> Wilderness, according to the CWI play book, you now have to confess to her husband and her children, if she has any. You also have to confess to her family and her husbands family. Right? Isn't that the CWI play book, to further hurt and humiliate the WS?


Well...personally I've never been a fan of the CWI playbook. Its not for every situation in my opinion, yet most treat it as such.


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## SimplyAmorous

Sounds to me like you had a tumultuous love affair , you 2 never got over each other ...your being a bad boy contributed to her thinking she'd be better off with the stable faithful type...but she went against her own PEACE in marrying him...why did she do that...

I feel sorry for her Husband... by the way...I don't think Good men should marry women who have had bad boys.. that's my personal opinion.. the Good guys should marry the Good girls who waited for those type of men, cause they appreciate them more so ...and bonded with them 1st...

Nothing is worse than thinking you have a faithful spouse to learn they never got over a 1st love that's bound in their soul...can anything be more crushing.... 

What I see is...both of your wrong choices has allowed others to get caught in the crossfire of what probably should have been all along..had you had our sh** together yrs ago...
Unfortunate as it is..

God...people make excuses for Him all the time... Your redemption is to go to the person you have wronged, admit your sin before them and sin no more...She needs to come clean with her husband, and her betrayal against him...

... you mentioned sexlessness... is she in a sexless marriage..


> *wilderness said:* I don't think she should have a lifetime sentence of no sex imposed upon her, but her husband deserves the chance to try and meet her needs. How can he get that with me around? But she doesn't think there is any way.


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## wilderness

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I think wilderness is being used by this woman TBH, but I'm wondering the same thing. She was attracted to him in another life. In the world of alpha/beta labels, he's significantly more beta now. How will that square with her now?
> 
> On top of that, how can you trust someone that cheated on her husband? Even if she stated that "she made a mistake in marrying him", if she was always wanting you, there were PLENTY of times from the moment she got the ring from her BH until the day of the wedding that she could have called it off and looked you up. She didn't. Why do you think that was?


No, man, you got this post wrong. First of all, I'm not 'significantly more beta' these days than then. If anything, it's still too much bad boy and not enough reliable and stable guy. But yes, I am a man of faith these days..absolutely.

Second, the break up was an epic nuclear meltdown. I don't want to get into the details, but it was as bad as they get. She has tried to contact me now and then over the years, but still angry from the breakup, I basically didn't give her the time of day. So this isn't something that is brand new.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Wilderness, it sounds like you have a history of saying and doing horrible things when you're hurt. First this one, then your wife.....you might get some counseling for this. It may be part of what contributes to the level of animosity you have with your ex wife.

As for this woman, tell yourself whatever you want but you know she's a cheat and a liar. She will continue to be a cheat and a liar whether with her hb or with you or with someone else. I think of all the things you've said and all the contradictions what gets me the most is that you think it's different in your case. It's not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

wilderness said:


> No, man, you got this post wrong. First of all, I'm not 'significantly more beta' these days than then. If anything, it's still too much bad boy and not enough reliable and stable guy. But yes, I am a man of faith these days..absolutely.
> 
> Second, the break up was an epic nuclear meltdown. I don't want to get into the details, but it was as bad as they get. She has tried to contact me now and then over the years, but still angry from the breakup, I basically didn't give her the time of day. So this isn't something that is brand new.


Sounds like you brought this anger into your marriage. Have you considered this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thound

I would love to tear into you, but your doing a pretty good job for yourself, that and its hard for me to remove that spec in your eye when I have a boulder in mine. That is between you, her, her husband, and God.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

wilderness said:


> No, man, you got this post wrong. First of all, I'm not 'significantly more beta' these days than then. If anything, it's still too much bad boy and not enough reliable and stable guy. But yes, I am a man of faith these days..absolutely.
> 
> Second, the break up was an epic nuclear meltdown. I don't want to get into the details, but it was as bad as they get. She has tried to contact me now and then over the years, but still angry from the breakup, I basically didn't give her the time of day. So this isn't something that is brand new.


So you're both extremely emotional people. This could be a perfect match or a perfect storm.

This is your opportunity for growth. To recognize the life is never cut and dry. That collateral damage is never intended but has to be atoned for.

You need to go No Contact with her until she is divorced. If you want her, take the time to prepare yourself for a bumpy ride!


----------



## wilderness

SimplyAmorous said:


> Sounds to me like you had a tumultuous love affair , you 2 never got over each other ...your being a bad boy contributed to her thinking she'd be better off with the stable faithful type...but she went against her own PEACE in marrying him...why did she do that...
> 
> I feel sorry for her Husband... by the way...I don't think Good men should marry women who have had bad boys.. that's my personal opinion.. the Good guys should marry the Good girls who waited for those type of men, cause they appreciate them more so ...and bonded with them 1st...
> 
> Nothing is worse than thinking you have a faithful spouse to learn they never got over a 1st love that's bound in their soul...can anything be more crushing....
> 
> What I see is...both of your wrong choices has allowed others to get caught in the crossfire of what probably should have been all along..had you had our sh** together yrs ago...
> Unfortunate as it is..
> 
> God...people make excuses for Him all the time... Your redemption is to go to the person you have wronged, admit your sin before them and sin no more...She needs to come clean with her husband, and her betrayal against him...
> 
> ... you mentioned sexlessness... is she in a sexless marriage..


From what I understand it was a once a month thing at first, now it's down to almost nothing (her married sex life). This is part of the reason I don't see much hope for her marriage, I don't think there is a baseline level of attraction to return to.

And yes, I know there is a chance she is lying to me. But again, one thing I always liked about her is that I never knew her to be a liar.

One thing I thought of doing-

telling her we are done until she files for divorce (or maybe even gets the divorce). If our feelings lasted this long, why couldn't they last another year?
But I want to make sure that would be ok with God before I make that decision.

edit to add: I think you summarized things pretty exactly as they happened.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

If you want to get sucked back into the swirl of drama filled love affair full of tumultuous moments and uncertainty then it sounds like she's the gal for you.

Otherwise,cut contact with her completely.I don't know anything about getting right with God but I do know about being a good person. A good person would shut this down immediately then try to use what you learned about temptation to help others avoid the trap you fell into with this woman.

You know nothing good will come your way until you make this right and get rid of the connection with that woman.


----------



## Anon Pink

Plan 9 from OS said:


> True, but the counterpoint is that the outcome was the same whether his intent was malicious or not.


Abuse....not the right word. It's the word wilderness likes to use on WAywards. This is why I used it. It's the wrong word. Abuse implies INTENT to harm. Collateral damage is not intended, but a risk that is taken. It's a subtle distinction that wilderness has refused to see. Maybe he can see it now?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> No, man, you got this post wrong. First of all, I'm not 'significantly more beta' these days than then. If anything, it's still *too much bad boy* and not enough reliable and stable guy. But yes, *I am a man of faith* these days..absolutely.
> 
> Second, the break up was an epic nuclear meltdown. I don't want to get into the details, but it was as bad as they get. She has tried to contact me now and then over the years, but still angry from the breakup, I basically didn't give her the time of day. So this isn't something that is brand new.


This does not compute. You are lying to yourself. You are either a bad boy or a man of faith. Unless I'm getting tripped up by the labels, I can't see how you can possibly still have the bad boy traits if you are a practicing Christian that is taking his faith seriously. 

I'm not saying that you cannot be a Christian with faults - we all are. But you know the verse "No one can serve two masters...you will love one and despise the other...". As a Christian, you are at a crossroads. Do you give up your "bad boy" ways and ultimately (my opinion) the girl to keep your faith with God? Or do you keep the girl by retaining those bad boy traits and make that life together with God (in my opinion) pushed into a corner or out of your life completely?


----------



## Anon Pink

wilderness said:


> One thing I thought of doing-
> 
> telling her we are done until she files for divorce (or maybe even gets the divorce). If our feelings lasted this long, why couldn't they last another year?
> But I want to make sure that would be ok with God before I make that decision.
> 
> edit to add: I think you summarized things pretty exactly as they happened.


I vote for this one. If the feelings are that strong, they will last through the separation period.


----------



## wilderness

Plan 9 from OS said:


> This does not compute. You are lying to yourself. You are either a bad boy or a man of faith. Unless I'm getting tripped up by the labels, I can't see how you can possibly still have the bad boy traits if you are a practicing Christian that is taking his faith seriously.
> 
> I'm not saying that you cannot be a Christian with faults - we all are. But you know the verse "No one can serve two masters...you will love one and despise the other...". As a Christian, you are at a crossroads. Do you give up your "bad boy" ways and ultimately (my opinion) the girl to keep your faith with God? Or do you keep the girl by retaining those bad boy traits and make that life together with God (in my opinion) pushed into a corner or out of your life completely?


I think you've given me a false dichotomy, but if it is as you say, I choose God.


----------



## EleGirl

wilderness said:


> I don't think his family is going to survive whether I'm in the picture or not. At least that is what she says. Could she be lying? Of course it's possible. But I never knew her to be a liar. And that's the truth.


People change.... 

The only reasonable thing you can do right now is to not talk to her or see her until she is divorced. If and only if she has divorce him should you even consider seeing her again. 

You know that she has to resolve her marriage one way or the other.

If she does divorce him and the two of you see each other, you will always have in the back of your mind that she is capable of cheating... that she will cheat instead of resolve her issues with the marriage. You also know that she is capable of dropping you as soon as some other guy catches her attention... she's done this to you as well.


----------



## DoF

OP, get help, you need it. Seriously.

You are not thinking clearly at all, and all this god talk is making it even worse.

Start here 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo

and possibly get some therapy going for yourself. I don't think you are ready for ANY relationship with ANYONE until that happens.

Just me though


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> I think you've given me a false dichotomy, but if it is as you say, I choose God.


I'm giving you the choices as I see them based on my best guess of the situation. You said that she always loved you, regretted marrying the BH from day one and even cried when she knew you got married. Through that time, she knew you as a person who was a bad boy - someone dark and exciting. You changed and became a man of faith, right? Can you honestly tell me that a Christian lifestyle and a "Bad Boy lifestyle" can coexist? I think not. 

This is my opinion based on what I know. I could be well off base here. But I think she was always attracted to your bad boy nature. That's all she knew of you and that's why she followed your life from afar. If you want to keep her, my guess is you will have to retain that bad boy persona. How far do you go to keep her? Is she a woman of faith? Honestly, I think it's a tough row to hoe when you have a devout person married to a lukewarm person. Sooner or later, you end up choosing your faith or your partner. IMHO, it's much easier for a devout Jew and a devout Christian to maintain a marriage than a strong Christian with a lukewarm Christian or even Agnostic. 

It's how I see it. I think there is an awful lot you do not know about this woman. You have no idea how much she changed.

Food for thought. Isn't it funny how she was able to stay away from you until after her marriage became sexless? Wasn't it her husband that made it sexless in the first place? Maybe you don't know for sure. It would be interesting to know that.


----------



## wilderness

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'm giving you the choices as I see them based on my best guess of the situation. You said that she always loved you, regretted marrying the BH from day one and even cried when she knew you got married. Through that time, she knew you as a person who was a bad boy - someone dark and exciting. You changed and became a man of faith, right? Can you honestly tell me that a Christian lifestyle and a "Bad Boy lifestyle" can coexist? I think not.
> 
> This is my opinion based on what I know. I could be well off base here. But I think she was always attracted to your bad boy nature. That's all she knew of you and that's why she followed your life from afar. If you want to keep her, my guess is you will have to retain that bad boy persona. How far do you go to keep her? Is she a woman of faith? Honestly, I think it's a tough row to hoe when you have a devout person married to a lukewarm person. Sooner or later, you end up choosing your faith or your partner. IMHO, it's much easier for a devout Jew and a devout Christian to maintain a marriage than a strong Christian with a lukewarm Christian or even Agnostic.
> 
> It's how I see it. I think there is an awful lot you do not know about this woman. You have no idea how much she changed.
> 
> Food for thought. Isn't it funny how she was able to stay away from you until after her marriage became sexless? Wasn't it her husband that made it sexless in the first place? Maybe you don't know for sure. It would be interesting to know that.


Some of your points are right on the money, others I think you miss. As to the devout vs. lukewarm, yes I agree with you 1000%. It's a big part of the reason that my 1st marriage failed. That being said, her heart seems softer towards God now. My hope is that she would follow my lead. Would she? There is no way to know absolutely.

As to the sexless marriage thing. I just don't think she is capable of lying to that level. I'm sorry, I don't believe it. She's got too many details of too many events and these were shared with me before she had any idea whether I would reciprocate or not. I just don't see the benefit to her to lie to that level, and again- someone that I never knew to be a liar.


----------



## Zanne

You have got to be kidding me! Argh....holding my tongue.

Why don't you ask her husband to forgive you? He is still her husband, correct? She made her oaths to him, not you.

Maybe you should take Anon's advice and cool down with NC. Easier said than done, I know.

Also, why not move this to CWI so you can get a different perspective?? 

Oh, and God still loves you.


----------



## DoF

Zanne said:


> Oh, and God still loves you.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> You have got to be kidding me! Argh....holding my tongue.
> 
> Why don't you ask her husband to forgive you? He is still her husband, correct? She made her oaths to him, not you.
> 
> Maybe you should take Anon's advice and cool down with NC. Easier said than done, I know.
> 
> Also, why not move this to CWI so you can get a different perspective??
> 
> Oh, and God still loves you.


Hey, Zanne. Yeah, I knew you would be along sooner or later. I guess I've been a super jerk to you. I don't know what to say, except please forgive me. I still don't think it's right what you are doing. I don't' think it's right what I did. But I do understand now. It's a lot different when you are right in the middle of it.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> Some of your points are right on the money, others I think you miss. As to the devout vs. lukewarm, yes I agree with you 1000%. It's a big part of the reason that my 1st marriage failed. That being said, her heart seems softer towards God now. My hope is that she would follow my lead. Would she? There is no way to know absolutely.
> 
> *As to the sexless marriage thing. I just don't think she is capable of lying to that level. I'm sorry, I don't believe it. She's got too many details of too many events and these were shared with me before she had any idea whether I would reciprocate or not. I just don't see the benefit to her to lie to that level, and again- someone that I never knew to be a liar.*


Fog


----------



## Anon Pink

Zanne said:


> You have got to be kidding me! Argh....holding my tongue.
> 
> Why don't you ask her husband to forgive you? He is still her husband, correct? She made her oaths to him, not you.
> 
> Maybe you should take Anon's advice and cool down with NC. *Easier said than don*e, I know.
> 
> Also, why not move this to CWI so you can get a different perspective??
> 
> Oh, and God still loves you.



:rofl:

I was wondering if you'd show up!

Ain't karma a b!tch?


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> Fog


So she lied to me? Is that what you really think?


----------



## Anon Pink

wilderness said:


> Hey, Zanne. Yeah, I knew you would be along sooner or later*. I guess I've been a super jerk to you. I don't know what to say, except please forgive me. * I still don't think it's right what you are doing. I don't' think it's right what I did. But I do understand now. It's a lot different when you are right in the middle of it.


Wow! I am impressed wilderness! Some real growth on your part. As long as you don't start blaming this old flame for I noticing you with lust, I will remain impressed. Good job!


----------



## wilderness

Anon Pink said:


> :rofl:
> 
> I was wondering if you'd show up!
> 
> Ain't karma a b!tch?


Hilarious, right? Seriously, you couldn't have written this any better.

Hey, I'll be straight up- I deserve it. I was a douche. That's on me, so have at it.


----------



## Anon Pink

I don't kick a man when he's down, unless he starts blaming someone else for tripping him.


----------



## wilderness

Anon Pink said:


> I don't kick a man when he's down, unless he starts blaming someone else for tripping him.


This one is on me. Period.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> So she lied to me? Is that what you really think?


I don't know, you tell me. You may believe what you WANT to believe. You had sex with her, what do you think??

IDK, maybe I can't say much - it's like the blind leading the blind. But I'm 10 months down the road and things are starting to look clearer.


----------



## Anon Pink

You'll be okay wilderness! 

Until blonde logs on. Then you are in serious sh!t.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> So she lied to me? Is that what you really think?


I do...especially about the part where she says she's softening her stance on God. It IS possible that she is saying things she knows that you want to hear..., i.e. FOG


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> I don't know, you tell me. You may believe what you WANT to believe. You had sex with her, what do you think??
> 
> IDK, maybe I can't say much - it's like the blind leading the blind. But I'm 10 months down the road and things are starting to look clearer.


It just doesn't seem realistic that she lied. She was never a liar, and now she is the master at it? Keep in mind, this is _before_ we had sex. And I don't see the benefit to her to lie. I'm sorry, I just don't believe that.

For the record, she felt as badly as I did after having sex.


----------



## Rowan

wilderness said:


> Some of your points are right on the money, others I think you miss. As to the devout vs. lukewarm, yes I agree with you 1000%. It's a big part of the reason that my 1st marriage failed. That being said, her heart seems softer towards God now. My hope is that she would follow my lead. Would she? There is no way to know absolutely.
> 
> As to the sexless marriage thing. I just don't think she is capable of lying to that level. I'm sorry, I don't believe it. She's got too many details of too many events and these were shared with me before she had any idea whether I would reciprocate or not. *I just don't see the benefit to her to lie to that level*, and again- someone that I never knew to be a liar.


:slap:

Really? The benefits would be that she gets all the fun ego-boosting goodies that come along with an EA/PA with you, and she gets to hook you into being her backup in case she ever actually ends her marriage. Welcome to being _both_ the Other Man _and_ Plan B.

Even if she leaves her husband for you - just like she left you for him years ago - you should probably really think hard about a relationship with a woman who apparently cannot just be alone. She appears to need to line up a replacement before ending a relationship. She can't be alone, so she uses whoever is easy and convenient as a safety net. That's not a hallmark of someone who's great relationship material.

And, frankly, you seem to have some anger issues and a near-terminal case of The Glory Days going on. If the two of you were a hot mess before, expect that to be magnified now that you're devout, she's not, you have a rocky history together, she's got a history of cheating, and you were the OM.


----------



## wilderness

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I do...especially about the part where she says she's softening her stance on God. It IS possible that she is saying things she knows that you want to hear..., i.e. FOG


The softening the stance toward God thing…yes that could totally be fog (or just my f'ed up interpretation). The other thing (lack of attraction to her husband), I don't think so. Apples to oranges.

How does one have fog before one cheats?


----------



## EleGirl

wilderness said:


> Some of your points are right on the money, others I think you miss. As to the devout vs. lukewarm, yes I agree with you 1000%. It's a big part of the reason that my 1st marriage failed. That being said, her heart seems softer towards God now. My hope is that she would follow my lead. Would she? There is no way to know absolutely.
> 
> As to the sexless marriage thing. I just don't think she is capable of lying to that level. I'm sorry, I don't believe it. She's got too many details of too many events and these were shared with me before she had any idea whether I would reciprocate or not. I just don't see the benefit to her to lie to that level, and again- someone that I never knew to be a liar.


She might very well be in a sexless marriage. If she is it's hard on her just as it would be for a man. 

That does not change what you need to do. Let her know that you are going no contact. If she ever does divorce her husband, she can contact you and you will consider at the time whether or not you are interested in going out with her.

One thing you have just learned is the conflict that an affair partner goes through. My understanding is that it's not easy to handle.


----------



## wilderness

Rowan said:


> :slap:
> 
> Really? The benefits would be that she gets all the fun ego-boosting goodies that come along with an EA/PA with you, and she gets to hook you into being her backup in case she ever actually ends her marriage. Welcome to being _both_ the Other Man _and_ Plan B.
> 
> Even if she leaves her husband for you - just like she left you for him years ago - you should probably really think hard about a relationship with a woman who apparently cannot just be alone. She appears to need to line up a replacement before ending a relationship. She can't be alone, so she uses whoever is easy and convenient as a safety net. That's not a hallmark of someone who's great relationship material.
> 
> And, frankly, you seem to have some anger issues and a near-terminal case of The Glory Days going on. If the two of you were a hot mess before, expect that to be magnified now that you're devout, she's not, you have a rocky history together, she's got a history of cheating, and you were the OM.


Ok, I hear you on this post. It's certainly possible that it is as you say. You make a lot of sense here.


----------



## wilderness

EleGirl said:


> She might very well be in a sexless marriage. If she is it's hard on her just as it would be for a man.
> 
> That does not change what you need to do. Let her know that you are going no contact. If she ever does divorce her husband, she can contact you and you will consider at the time whether or not you are interested in going out with her.
> 
> One thing you have just learned is the conflict that an affair partner goes through. My understanding is that it's not easy to handle.


Thing is, she doesn't sound conflicted to me. She sounds like she is in 1000%. That's the thing about this that has me stunned.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Who cares what she's feeling and whether or not she's lying? I thought you wanted to get right with God? cut her loose and figure out what's going wrong with you that you'd sleep with a married woman.
Let her self destruct on her own bc I guarantee she'll destruct with or without you.


----------



## TiggyBlue

wilderness said:


> It just doesn't seem realistic that she lied. She was never a liar, and now she is the master at it? Keep in mind, this is _before_ we had sex. And I don't see the benefit to her to lie. I'm sorry, I just don't believe that.
> 
> For the record, she felt as badly as I did after having sex.


Well she is lying to her husband. I doubt she told her husband she contacted you saying how she wasn't ever attracted to him and the marriage was a mistake, it doesn't sound like she went home and told her husband that she's cheated on him.
Why do you believe that someone who has done this to her own husband isn't lying to you?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> The softening the stance toward God thing…yes that could totally be fog (or just my f'ed up interpretation). *The other thing (lack of attraction to her husband), I don't think so. Apples to oranges.
> *
> How does one have fog before one cheats?


She lacks attraction to her husband. Did it occur AFTER they were sexless or BEFORE they were sexless? Did they decide to become sexless as a joint decision, did she cut off the sex or did he cut off the sex? 

Really? Normally you walk into the fog BEFORE you cheat in most cases - with ONS's being the exception.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> Thing is, she doesn't sound conflicted to me. She sounds like she is in 1000%. That's the thing about this that has me stunned.


If you weren't getting any sex in your marriage, you'd say the same thing... So again, which one cut off the sex? It's important to know which one did it so that you can analyze this better. Do you even know?


----------



## wilderness

Plan 9 from OS said:


> She lacks attraction to her husband. Did it occur AFTER they were sexless or BEFORE they were sexless? Did they decide to become sexless as a joint decision, did she cut off the sex or did he cut off the sex?
> 
> Really? Normally you walk into the fog BEFORE you cheat in most cases - with ONS's being the exception.


According to her this started from day 1. She said the first kiss was awkward. To put this in context, I asked her if there was any chance her husband is gay. I can't imagine putting up with what he has for so long. According to her this has been going on from the beginning.


----------



## wilderness

Plan 9 from OS said:


> If you weren't getting any sex in your marriage, you'd say the same thing... So again, which one cut off the sex? It's important to know which one did it so that you can analyze this better. Do you even know?


According to her it was her that cut off the sex. I can't imagine that she is lying about this as she is a very attractive woman.


----------



## wilderness

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Beyond a shadow of a doubt, you're saying it was the husband that cut her off?


NO. I am saying it was her that cut it off. She has talked to me in detail about this.


----------



## alexm

wilderness said:


> From what I understand it was a once a month thing at first, now it's down to almost nothing (her married sex life). This is part of the reason I don't see much hope for her marriage, I don't think there is a baseline level of attraction to return to.
> 
> And yes, I know there is a chance she is lying to me. But again, one thing I always liked about her is that I never knew her to be a liar.
> 
> One thing I thought of doing-
> 
> telling her we are done until she files for divorce (or maybe even gets the divorce). If our feelings lasted this long, why couldn't they last another year?
> But I want to make sure that would be ok with God before I make that decision.
> 
> edit to add: I think you summarized things pretty exactly as they happened.


A couple of points:

-You are only getting one side of the story - hers. She may not be lying, but there's still a huge bias. She may have made up her mind about her HB years ago, but he's in the dark about it and is as happy as can be. You don't know that, simply based on what SHE is telling you. HE could be happy, or at least content, and have no idea just how his wife feels about him.

-Just because you "know" her, doesn't mean she isn't lying. People often say and do crazy things to get what they want. Maybe she is content in her marriage, yet is lacking the excitement of the bad boy(s) she used to have. So often it's MEN who are giving these lines to women, and we judge them as dogs and disgusting. Lots of men don't hate their wives or want to divorce, but they "miss" casual sex, so they tell women things like "yeah, we're getting a divorce" or "my wife never does XXX to me", simply in order to get in their pants. Here you are being fed these EXACT SAME LINES that typically come out of men's mouths, and you're believing them - believing HER - the woman who is cheating on her husband AND kids. Don't be shocked if this gets stringed along for a few months before she tells you they've worked things out, and she's not leaving him. When this happens to women, and the guy they're with strings them along, telling them they're getting a divorce, or their wife doesn't even touch them anymore, the woman stupidly believes him, and feels sorry for them. You are feeling sorry for her, right now, that is clear. And you are believing everything she is telling you as though it's 100% the truth - because you want to believe it is. She could just be screwing around. Women do that, too.

- Even IF she does divorce, why would you want HER back? Epic Nuclear Meltdown Breakup aside, she's now a cheater. Perhaps she was (or you were) back when you were together, so it's A-Okay now.

- And forget all that, she has kids with this guy. Speaking as a man whose wife has children from another marriage, I have to see this guy sometimes 3 or 4 times a week. And I didn't steal his wife, or sleep with her while she was with him. She didn't even leave him for me. It's STILL awkward. Imagine how it'd be with THIS guy. The guy whose wife was stolen... by YOU. And believe me when I tell you, he will be in her AND your life in one capacity or another, until one of you is dead. If you're okay with looking this guy in the eye at least once a week until the kids are older, then probably once or twice a year afterwards, then good for you. I wouldn't. And I don't think HE would, either.

Move on. From one man to another - move on. What you did isn't good, obviously, and you are taking responsibility for it and manning up big time. But to feel that there's a long term future for you with her (and HIM, and THEIR kids)? Nope. You're fooling yourself.


----------



## DoF

wilderness said:


> According to her this started from day 1. She said the first kiss was awkward. To put this in context, I asked her if there was any chance her husband is gay. I can't imagine putting up with what he has for so long. According to her this has been going on from the beginning.


And she went ahead and married him?

Just another reason to run RUN FAST AND FAR away from this woman.

Think about it, use your brain and please PLEASE don't look to god for the answer.

:scratchhead:


----------



## wilderness

alexm said:


> A couple of points:
> 
> -You are only getting one side of the story - hers. She may not be lying, but there's still a huge bias. She may have made up her mind about her HB years ago, but he's in the dark about it and is as happy as can be. You don't know that, simply based on what SHE is telling you. HE could be happy, or at least content, and have no idea just how his wife feels about him.
> 
> -Just because you "know" her, doesn't mean she isn't lying. People often say and do crazy things to get what they want. Maybe she is content in her marriage, yet is lacking the excitement of the bad boy(s) she used to have. So often it's MEN who are giving these lines to women, and we judge them as dogs and disgusting. Lots of men don't hate their wives or want to divorce, but they "miss" casual sex, so they tell women things like "yeah, we're getting a divorce" or "my wife never does XXX to me", simply in order to get in their pants. Here you are being fed these EXACT SAME LINES that typically come out of men's mouths, and you're believing them - believing HER - the woman who is cheating on her husband AND kids. Don't be shocked if this gets stringed along for a few months before she tells you they've worked things out, and she's not leaving him. When this happens to women, and the guy they're with strings them along, telling them they're getting a divorce, or their wife doesn't even touch them anymore, the woman stupidly believes him, and feels sorry for them. You are feeling sorry for her, right now, that is clear. And you are believing everything she is telling you as though it's 100% the truth - because you want to believe it is. She could just be screwing around. Women do that, too.
> 
> - Even IF she does divorce, why would you want HER back? Epic Nuclear Meltdown Breakup aside, she's now a cheater. Perhaps she was (or you were) back when you were together, so it's A-Okay now.
> 
> - And forget all that, she has kids with this guy. Speaking as a man whose wife has children from another marriage, I have to see this guy sometimes 3 or 4 times a week. And I didn't steal his wife, or sleep with her while she was with him. She didn't even leave him for me. It's STILL awkward. Imagine how it'd be with THIS guy. The guy whose wife was stolen... by YOU. And believe me when I tell you, he will be in her AND your life in one capacity or another, until one of you is dead. If you're okay with looking this guy in the eye at least once a week until the kids are older, then probably once or twice a year afterwards, then good for you. I wouldn't. And I don't think HE would, either.
> 
> Move on. From one man to another - move on. What you did isn't good, obviously, and you are taking responsibility for it and manning up big time. But to feel that there's a long term future for you with her (and HIM, and THEIR kids)? Nope. You're fooling yourself.


I told her today, "boy it would be nice if this could somehow work out where we would all be friends in the end-but that's just a fantasy, right?" 
I get it. It rarely works out that way.

I figure he'll hate me once he finds out. But at least if I don't bang her again, I could potentially look this dude in the eye and tell him I had enough respect for him to stop once I had crossed that line. Will it matter? I'm not naive…probably not.


----------



## jld

wilderness said:


> I told her today, "boy it would be nice if this could somehow work out where we would all be friends in the end-but that's just a fantasy, right?"
> I get it. It rarely works out that way.
> 
> I figure he'll hate me once he finds out. But at least if I don't bang her again, I could potentially look this dude in the eye and tell him I had enough respect for him to stop once I had crossed that line. Will it matter? I'm not naive…probably not.


Try to put yourself in his shoes. How would _you_ feel?


----------



## committed4ever

What a FASCINATING thread! Everyone seems to know the backstory but me and DoF who keeps hollering "DON'T TALK ABOUT GOD! DON'T TALK ABOUT GOD! I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IF YOU TALK ABOUT GOD!"

Anyway, Wilderness, as a Christian myself, married to a reformed bad boy although that's neither here nor there, I just can't understand why you don't think this is a very bad foundation to build a marriage on? This is what your history with her is, according to you:

1. tumultuous relationship
2. I'm thinking awesome sex
3. Living a little on the edge
4. Not communicating enough to know that she wanted a little more stability
5. You finally reply to her contacting you which should have been forbidden since she was married
6. Having sex
7. Cheating and lying (at least by omission if she has not told her husband)

So now you are a Christian and you really think you can build something on that?

I really really feel for the position you are in but it does seem like fog to think you can take all of the bad stuff and build something good

And let me add to the others: God might be mad at you but you but He will forget all of that if you repent, meaning actually turn around and walk away frm this married woman. In the meantime, He still loves you no matter what. that's just how He rolls.


----------



## wilderness

DoF said:


> And she went ahead and married him?
> 
> Just another reason to run RUN FAST AND FAR away from this woman.
> 
> Think about it, use your brain and please PLEASE don't look to god for the answer.
> 
> :scratchhead:


Buddy, I get everything I need from God. He gives my answers, my hope, my life, and every good thing I have in this world. Even when I fail Him as I most assuredly have in this situation. Without Him, I am nothing.


----------



## wilderness

committed4ever said:


> What a FASCINATING thread! Everyone seems to know the backstory but me and DoF who keeps hollering "DON'T TALK ABOUT GOD! DON'T TALK ABOUT GOD! I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IF YOU TALK ABOUT GOD!"
> 
> Anyway, Wilderness, as a Christian myself, married to a reformed bad boy although that's neither here nor there, I just can't understand why you don't think this is a very bad foundation to build a marriage on? This is what your history with her is, according to you:
> 
> 1. tumultuous relationship
> 2. I'm thinking awesome sex
> 3. Living a little on the edge
> 4. Not communicating enough to know that she wanted a little more stability
> 5. You finally reply to her contacting you which should have been forbidden since she was married
> 6. Having sex
> 7. Cheating and lying (at least by omission if she has not told her husband)
> 
> So now you are a Christian and you really think you can build something on that?
> 
> I really really feel for the position you are in but it does seem like fog to think you can take all of the bad stuff and build something good
> 
> And let me add to the others: God might be mad at you but you but He will forget all of that if you repent, meaning actually turn around and walk away frm this married woman. In the meantime, He still loves you no matter what. that's just how He rolls.


Yes, I understand what you are saying. I told her if it's possible for us to be together, I don't want to build our new relationship on shame, deceit, and secrecy. That's why I was thinking that the best thing to do is not talk until she files for divorce. Then we can establish a new foundation. But I'm not sure how her husband is going to react, how things are going to shake down…it's hard to know what the right thing to do is. 

I do believe that we love each other, no matter what anyone says. Whether this is right or wrong, well..that's another thing entirely.


----------



## ReformedHubby

wilderness said:


> I told her today, "boy it would be nice if this could somehow work out where we would all be friends in the end-but that's just a fantasy, right?"
> I get it. It rarely works out that way.


You're not being honest. You have no desire to be her friend at this point. You're in too deep. You want a relationship with her. People are patting you on the back for manning up, but I can't do that until you are honest with yourself about what your motives truly are. As for her husband he will most certainly not want to be your friend, and rightfully so.


----------



## doubletrouble

wilderness said:


> From what I understand it was a once a month thing at first, now it's down to almost nothing (her married sex life). This is part of the reason I don't see much hope for her marriage, I don't think there is a baseline level of attraction to return to.
> 
> And yes, I know there is a chance she is lying to me. But again, one thing I always liked about her is that I never knew her to be a liar.
> 
> One thing I thought of doing-
> 
> telling her we are done until she files for divorce (or maybe even gets the divorce). If our feelings lasted this long, why couldn't they last another year?
> But I want to make sure that would be ok with God before I make that decision.
> 
> edit to add: I think you summarized things pretty exactly as they happened.


I thought the

EXACT. SAME. THING.

about my fWW. 

She was the only woman I'd ever met who I thought wow, this one will always be a straight shooter. She's just wired that way.

Seriously._ You don't know this woman._ Don't even imagine you do.


----------



## wilderness

ReformedHubby said:


> You're not being honest. You have no desire to be her friend at this point. You're in too deep. You want a relationship with her. People are patting you on the back for manning up, but I can't do that until you are honest with yourself about what your motives truly are. As for her husband he will most certainly not want to be your friend, and rightfully so.


No, sir. I didn't mean it that way. I meant it that I was hoping that one day her and I could be together…that her and I as _a couple_ would be friends with her husband. 

And perhaps that is wrong for me to hope that. It is difficult for me to know if that is wrong for me to hope, maybe I'm too close to the situation.

And as I said, that hope is probably not realistic, anyway.


----------



## lisab0105

You need to not ever see this woman again. You need to expose her to her husband. If she cheats with you, she will cheat on you. 

You know how the story goes. You are not new.

You are not special to her, she is just selfish.


----------



## DoF

wilderness said:


> Buddy, I get everything I need from ME. I give myself answers, hope, life, and every good thing I have in this world. Even when I fail myself as I most assuredly have in this situation. Without me, I am nothing.


Here is what I read.....and REALITY

I'm sorry, but it's very hard for me to understand, accept or even relate to anything that is not real (to me of course).

My deepest apologies. 

George Carlin can explain exactly how I feel on the subject. 

PS. I come from a country that had (at the time) more churches per capita than any other country in the world and have had religion shoved down my throat for many years.


----------



## lisab0105

wilderness said:


> No, sir. I didn't mean it that way. I meant it that I was hoping that one day her and I could be together…that her and I as _a couple_ would be friends with her husband.
> 
> And perhaps that is wrong for me to hope that. It is difficult for me to know if that is wrong for me to hope, maybe I'm too close to the situation.
> 
> And as I said, that hope is probably not realistic, anyway.


Are you kidding? You are going to be a part of his nightmares now. He will in some way compare himself to you every day. The thought of you is going to make him nauseous and he is going to wish you were standing right in front of him so he can punch your face in about 10,000x's. 

You will never be his friend, only his enemy and you are completely naïve if you think otherwise.


----------



## DoF

Meh, OP has nothing to worry about as the god is on his side.

Go on and marry this woman, god got your back!!!!

:rofl:


----------



## wilderness

DoF said:


> Here is what I read.....and REALITY
> 
> I'm sorry, but it's very hard for me to understand, accept or even relate to anything that is not real (to me of course).
> 
> My deepest apologies.
> 
> George Carlin can explain exactly how I feel on the subject.
> 
> PS. I come from a country that had (at the time) more churches per capita than any other country in the world and have had religion shoved down my throat for many years.


God is real. Jesus Christ is real. If I know nothing else in this world, I know this. You are wrong concerning your belief about God, sir. Dead wrong.


----------



## wilderness

DoF said:


> Meh, OP has nothing to worry about as the god is on his side.
> 
> Go on and marry this woman, god got your back!!!!
> 
> :rofl:


Oh, I have a lot to worry about. You don't know the Lord God.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."
Proverbs 9:10


----------



## wilderness

lisab0105 said:


> Are you kidding? You are going to be a part of his nightmares now. He will in some way compare himself to you every day. The thought of you is going to make him nauseous and he is going to wish you were standing right in front of him so he can punch your face in about 10,000x's.
> 
> You will never be his friend, only his enemy and you are completely naïve if you think otherwise.


I will not defend the indefensible. I was wrong for having sex with that woman. That's on me.


----------



## pidge70

Well, well, well....how the mighty have fallen.

Even if she gets divorced and ends up with you, wouldn't she still be committing adultery? You know, according to God's rules?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## karole

Are you counseling her that she should walk away from the marriage with absolutely nothing and give full custody of her children to her husband as I have seen you state to other women that had an affair on this board?


----------



## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> Well, well, well....how the mighty have fallen.
> 
> Even if she gets divorced and ends up with you, wouldn't she still be committing adultery? You know, according to God's rules?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, I knew you would be along soon enough as well, Pidge. Go ahead, take your best shot. I'm not even going to reciprocate, because I know I was wrong.


----------



## Sandfly

Crikey Wilderness, 

This one is basic.

I don't know about how men behave, but in my experience, if a woman wants to test the waters for cheating, she will always have 15 different, interesting, compelling, superficially logical reasons to do so, none of them with any validity nor force of truth. 

The reasons exist simply to offer _you_ a way to deal with _your _guilt or reluctance. Here's five excuses, pick the one you like best. You didn't like that sob story? No worries, I got another one, with extra tears this time.

In marketing parlance this is known as "dealing with objections", in common tongue: rationalising, making the wrong decision seem like the right one, in order to secure the sale.

Are you really the love of her life... did she cry buckets when she heard you were to marry?

Maybe, maybe not... but she certainly pressed the right buttons.

"Mission Accomplished". Wise up, she may or may not be lying, but she's certainly manipulating you.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

How many times has the walkaway wife and the OM (you) ended up falling apart shortly after the divorce is final? That's you. You are merely greener grass.

You should instruct her to work on her marriage and never contact you again. Then delete her number/any contact info you have and never look back.


----------



## wilderness

karole said:


> Are you counseling her that she should walk away from the marriage with absolutely nothing and give full custody of her children to her husband as I have seen you state to other women that had an affair on this board?


C'mon, Karole. I never said a woman that had a ONS should give up everything. I never even said that should be the end of the marriage! Anytime I have counseled that it has been when one person is involved in an affair and refused to stop.

Have I changed my tune? Yes, I think I have. I'd say 50/50 custody without changing hands is the most fair way to do it.


----------



## wilderness

Sandfly said:


> Crikey Wilderness,
> 
> This one is basic.
> 
> I don't know about how men behave, but in my experience, if a woman wants to test the waters for cheating, she will always have 15 different, interesting, compelling, superficially logical reasons to do so, none of them with any validity nor force of truth.
> 
> The reasons exist simply to offer _you_ a way to deal with _your _guilt or reluctance. Here's five excuses, pick the one you like best. You didn't like that sob story? No worries, I got another one, with extra tears this time.
> 
> In marketing parlance this is known as "dealing with objections", in common tongue: rationalising, making the wrong decision seem like the right one, in order to secure the sale.
> 
> Are you really the love of her life... did she cry buckets when she heard you were to marry?
> 
> Maybe, maybe not... but she certainly pressed the right buttons.
> 
> "Mission Accomplished". Wise up, she may or may not be lying, but she's certainly manipulating you.


I would love to hear her answer to this one. As such, I've texted her to look at this thread. This is where Zanne and I differ. I'd like to see how she responds to this.


----------



## SadSamIAm

The way I read it is you weren't good enough for her before. 

She chose her now husband because he was more stable. I know you don't want to hear it, but I am sure there was more there than he is 'stable'. If there wasn't then she definitely is not good relationship material.

So now that things aren't working with her husband she has found you to help her out of her marriage. She doesn't have the strength to do it alone. 

Now what makes you think you are good enough for her now? What if she finds a nice 'stable' guy again and decides you aren't good enough again.

I think you have this woman on a pedestal. You think she is so wonderful, that she wouldn't lie. From the outside looking in, I don't see her as wonderful at all. I see her hurting her husband and children. I see her using you to get away from her marriage. 

I think in a year or two, you will be back here saying she left you and you just can't understand it, because she just wouldn't do that.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

SadSamIAm said:


> The way I read it is you weren't good enough for her before.
> 
> She chose her now husband because he was more stable. I know you don't want to hear it, but I am sure there was more there than he is 'stable'. If there wasn't then she definitely is not good relationship material.
> 
> So now that things aren't working with her husband she has found you to help her out of her marriage. She doesn't have the strength to do it alone.
> 
> Now what makes you think you are good enough for her now? What if she finds a nice 'stable' guy again and decides you aren't good enough again.
> 
> I think you have this woman on a pedestal. *You think she is so wonderful, that she wouldn't lie. * From the outside looking in, I don't see her as wonderful at all. I see her hurting her husband and children. I see her using you to get away from her marriage.
> 
> I think in a year or two, you will be back here saying she left you and you just can't understand it, because she just wouldn't do that.


But she IS lying. We don't know that she's lying to about wanting you all of these years. 

But if so, she has lied to her current husband for years - every I love you, swearing to honor and cherish him at their wedding, accepting the engagement... she sold her soul for money (aka "stability"). And now she is lying to him. Lying every day if she still says ILU as he heads of to that stable job; every evening or the end of every phone call... and she is lying to him about where she's going, who she's talking to/texting.

She is absolutely a liar. Exactly what you swore you didn't want. Now you are justifying just like ever other AP on the planet.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

wilderness said:


> I already told her that God comes first in my life. But I believe she is getting a divorce. Is there anyway for this relationship to continue once there has been a divorce filed?


As has been said, countless times (and I wonder if it's been said by you)

"If she will cheat with you, she'll cheat on you."

Yes she's "getting a divorce" blah blah, but right now she is married, correct. That's all you TRULY KNOW. So you had sex with a married woman and you aren't her husband, so is she a cheater? Yes.


----------



## DoF

wilderness said:


> God is real. Jesus Christ is real. If I know nothing else in this world, I know this. You are wrong concerning your belief about God, sir. Dead wrong.


Prove it to me.


----------



## DoF

wilderness said:


> Oh, I have a lot to worry about. You don't know the Lord God.
> 
> "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."
> Proverbs 9:10


The only person I fear is MYSELF.

And I would suggest that you do so as well!!! Especially in this situation


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> C'mon, Karole. I never said a woman that had a ONS should give up everything. I never even said that should be the end of the marriage! Anytime I have counseled that it has been when one person is involved in an affair and refused to stop.
> 
> Have I changed my tune? Yes, I think I have. I'd say 50/50 custody without changing hands is the most fair way to do it.


Matthew 5:29

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


----------



## alexm

doubletrouble said:


> I thought the
> 
> EXACT. SAME. THING.
> 
> about my fWW.
> 
> She was the only woman I'd ever met who I thought wow, this one will always be a straight shooter. She's just wired that way.


Yep, mine too. The LAST person on earth I would have thought would lie to me.

Just remember, Wilderness, HB probably thinks the exact same of her, and quite clearly he's wrong.


----------



## COfan

wilderness;8205041
Is there anyway this could be made right in God's eyes?
[/QUOTE said:


> This seems to be your original question. As you know, being with another's man's wife is wrong in God's eyes. It seems as though this woman needs to sort out her marriage issues without being involved with someone else, (you). To be planning a future with this currently married woman is not right in God's eyes~you know that. If you are a Christian, than it would be Christ-like for you to honor and respect another's marriage. It would be Christ-like for you to do the right thing because you live your life to honor and glorify God, despite your emotions. Are you asking if God would bless this union? I think you already know. I hope you'll do the right thing.


----------



## wilderness

DoF said:


> Prove it to me.


How did you get here? How were you born?


----------



## youkiddingme

You want to know what we think? Guys like you make me sick. You are in love with a MARRIED WOMAN!!!! You are helping destroy another family. Puke. I'd like to smack you in the head for her husband. That is what I think.

You want to know if God can forgive you for having adultery? Well, don't even begin to talk to him about forgiveness while you are scheming to destroy her marriage. God is smarter than that. You are not the least bit repentant while you are scheming to steal another man's wife. God is not as dumb as you might think.

You said, "I do believe that we love each other, no matter what anyone says. Whether this is right or wrong, well..that's another thing entirely."

Loving each other is irrelevant....you will understand one day when she cheats on you..... then you will get it. You see, you will likely not really care for other guys screwing your wife....even if they "Love" her.


----------



## doubletrouble

DoF said:


> Prove it to me.





wilderness said:


> How did you get here? How were you born?


Guys, let's not derail this thread with this debate. Move it to the P&R section if you want to discuss God. 

The rest of us don't really want to get into this, or we'd be in the P&R section. 

Let's stay focused on the issue, please.


----------



## alexm

wilderness said:


> How did you get here? How were you born?


Wilderness, don't fall into the threadjack. Save it for PM, or the other board on this site that deals with this stuff. Don't get sucked in. Keep this thread on track, it's yours, after all.

And FWIW, I'm a George Carlin fan.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> How did you get here? How were you born?


I'll save you the time before you thoroughly derail your thread. You'll never prove that God exists. I'm not sure what denomination you belong to, but if you subscribe to the notion that creationist science is valid and you believe that the earth is young (10,000 years old or less), you're going to make yourself look stupid. 

The only thing you can do is either accept God on faith or not. At best, the evidence will be "circumstantial", and in most cases the evidence does not exist.

If you are going to use creation as evidence for the existence of God, your best bet will be to talk about the "Big Bang". The Big Bang points to an origin, and if you look at the philosophy of St Thomas Aquinas - specifically about the "first cause" - then you have a shot at using reason and logic to draw someone into a belief in God. You'll never be able to do it with science alone, and if you try to do it by referencing the bible and using the pseudo science from the creationist museum, you'll push more people away from God than towards him.


----------



## love=pain

Severe guilt and your conscience is giving you fits after the act how convenient. You want redemption go see a priest or who ever you worship to (it is all bunk anyhow) that's the beauty of religion it allows people to commit horrible acts and then get forgiveness once again how convenient.

You want to make this right confess yourself to the husband and take whatever he gives you, like many cheaters I am sure you don't have all the story my guess is he sees his marriage very different from his wife or at least he did.

Never have any contact with this woman again as long as she is married, no exit speech, don't explain anything to her, tell the husband the complete truth for anything he asks (be respectful) and then get the hell away from them both.

I don't know your history but if you have been here some you know the pain and suffering you are now a part of that you and her have forced upon someone else who very well didn't know about any problems this bad plus of course is that relationships born out of infidelity fail most of the time so good luck with her in the future.
While I may be swayed into having sympathy for a married person that cheats, an unmarried person that gets involved in a relationship not a chance.


----------



## DoF

wilderness said:


> How did you get here? How were you born?


Evolution

My mother had me

I suggest you watch that video I posted.....


----------



## karole

Practice what you preach or quit preaching.


----------



## committed4ever

DoF said:


> Evolution
> 
> My mother had me
> 
> I suggest you watch that video I posted.....


Why argue this? Christians are not going to agree with Athiests and Athiest are not going to agree with Christians. Why argue the points? Waste of time to try and convince each other. I know as Christians we are taught to share our faith but once you have done that and it is rejected, move on.

If you feel you must, why not stick to the forum that is provided for that?


----------



## Zanne

Wilderness, seriously... is this for real? Are you for real??

And BTW, you are no different from me. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God... you know the rest. His grace, Wilderness, has you covered. How do you feel about that now? Guilty much?? We are no different.


----------



## Zanne

And that goes for you too, Karole.


----------



## pidge70

Zanne said:


> Wilderness, seriously... is this for real? Are you for real??
> 
> And BTW, you are no different from me. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God... you know the rest. His grace, Wilderness, has you covered. How do you feel about that now? Guilty much?? We are no different.


Oh you are a little different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## karole

Zanne said:


> Wilderness, seriously... is this for real? Are you for real??
> 
> And BTW, you are no different from me. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God... you know the rest. His grace, Wilderness, has you covered. How do you feel about that now? Guilty much?? We are no different.


That is just beyond sad....


----------



## Zanne

Oh, and you too, Pidge.


----------



## Zanne

Talk about hypocrites....


----------



## doubletrouble

Really? Can we stay on topic here people?


----------



## SadSamIAm

I also think the only way you can make this right is to tell her husband. Send him an email telling him you are sorry for getting involved in his marriage. 

Tell him most everything that his wife told you. If you have an exchange of information with him, my guess is you will get a better view of what their marriage was/is than what his wife told you. My guess is that you might change your view that 'she wouldn't lie'.


----------



## NobodySpecial

wilderness said:


> telling her we are done until she files for divorce (or maybe even gets the divorce). If our feelings lasted this long, why couldn't they last another year?
> But I want to make sure that would be ok with God before I make that decision.
> 
> edit to add: I think you summarized things pretty exactly as they happened.


Don't you have a clergy person you can go to? What religion interprets to be the will of god differs by religion. If you were Catholic, this would be a No Way. But that is not the case for all religions.


----------



## Zanne

I'm sorry, Wilderness. I did not mean to HJ your thread. I'm sorry, Karole and Pidge, for calling you hypocrites. It's just all so ironic to me.... again, I hardly believe this is real. Perhaps someone has Wilderness' login and PW??


----------



## HuggyBear

Why even bother to bring Christianity and faith into it all at this point, anyways?

It's pretty clear from Matthew that Jesus said divorce was a sin in itself, and that to divorce a woman was to make her into an adulterer. Hell, I mean "Heck", you've already committed a huge sin and don't even seem remorseful about that... so what if the divorce was made by someone claiming to be "a man of god", or whatever people who believe the parts they choose to in the bible, or try to make the words fit their wishes.

And now you've done it again. So what? Go repent for a bit, and carry on...

Heck, I mean "Hell", Jesus came and died for your sins... not just the original sin of creation, but for all those you'll commit. 

Just admit you were wrong, and if you're really sincere about your beliefs, stop doing bad stuff. I guess the only thing you can do ask the Jesus for forgiveness, acknowledge that you are only human, and it will make the rest of your days in hell (endless burning fires of metabolism slowly burning your body) more comfortable.

Don't waste a perfectly good Jesus!

And yeah, getting back with this woman again would definitely be another mark of adultery on you, so don't do that, either!

Maybe this Jesus stuff really isn't for you...


----------



## Zanne

Wilderness, one thing that may shake you... and it's something you have harped on me for months. Think about your own daughter. What if she knew the circumstances of this relationship?

I say this, not to get back at you, but as a fellow Christian who is genuinely sad to see another fall.


----------



## EleGirl

Sandfly said:


> Crikey Wilderness,
> 
> This one is basic.
> 
> I don't know about how men behave, but in my experience, if a woman wants to test the waters for cheating, she will always have 15 different, interesting, compelling, superficially logical reasons to do so, none of them with any validity nor force of truth.
> 
> The reasons exist simply to offer _you_ a way to deal with _your _guilt or reluctance. Here's five excuses, pick the one you like best. You didn't like that sob story? No worries, I got another one, with extra tears this time.


Men do the same thing. Maybe they don't cry about it... but there is the old standard "she does not understand me", "she is not supportive of me", "she only will do missionary"..... cheaters are cheaters.. that's how it works. Keep in mind that there is often some truth, often bathed in exaggeration.


----------



## Zanne

Ah, and HuggyBear makes a good point... you do NOT sound very remorseful. Another reason to separate yourself from the situation until you can think clearly. Or wait, is it too difficult? Oh... we don't understand? Maybe YOUR story is different from all the other stories about cheaters? Hmmm....life is complicated, is it not?


----------



## zackie

It sounds like this has nothing to do with God or redemption, but you wanting someone here to validate what you are doing, and your hope that you can have a successful future with this married woman you had sex with. 

If she is going through marital problems and is getting a divorce, why is she dragging you into the situation while she is still married? Sounds like she is manipulating both you and her husband.. Not very appealing on her part. She is insecure and doesn't want to be alone, which I can identify with as I also have fears about being alone. Its a choice she has to make without you in the picture. This all sounds more like a recipe for disaster than anything else.


----------



## jld

All this talk about religion is just his conscience bothering him. He wants something he knows he should not want, but he still wants it, really bad.

I feel sorry for you, wilderness. We are all only too human. 

But you are not going to be happy continuing down this path. If you can get yourself off it, you will be grateful later.


----------



## EleGirl

love=pain said:


> Severe guilt and your conscience is giving you fits after the act how convenient. You want redemption go see a priest or who ever you worship to (it is all bunk anyhow) that's the beauty of religion it allows people to commit horrible acts and then get forgiveness once again how convenient.


Christians, Jew, and Muslims do not 'worship to' priests/pastors. Your language is a bit off here.

But to the point.... it's wrong, completely wrong, to come onto a thread started by a person who has stated what their belief system is and to start attacking their beliefs. 

If the OP's beliefs offend you, then perhaps the best thing to do is to not post to him.

Now a question for you. When you do something wrong/bad, how do you handle it? Do you spend every waking moment of every day punishing and hating yourself for it? Please tell us, since you do not believe that there is a way to forgive yourself for your wrong doings.. how exactly do you live with yourself?


----------



## EleGirl

NobodySpecial said:


> Don't you have a clergy person you can go to? What religion interprets to be the will of god differs by religion. If you were Catholic, this would be a No Way. But that is not the case for all religions.


Why do you say that there would be no way if he were Catholic?


----------



## SadSamIAm

Wilderness is proving himself to be just like the 'christians' from my home town. 

Seeing how these people lived made me realize that going to church and talking about god really showed me nothing about how 'good' these people were. 

I think the way they lived was the 'reason' they went to church. Not saying everyone at church is bad, just saying that going to church and appearing christian doesn't make you a good person.


----------



## jld

He came here and admitted this, right? We should at least give him credit for that.


----------



## EleGirl

I think that the Christian bashing has to stop. The intolerance of the beliefs that someone holds on this thread is very very sad to see.


----------



## pidge70

jld said:


> He came here and admitted this, right? We should at least give him credit for that.


He deserves as much credit as any other WS that he has commented on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> He came here and admitted this, right? We should at least give him credit for that.


He has probably said his 10 Hail Mary's and is good to go!


----------



## Zanne

SadSamIAm said:


> Wilderness is proving himself to be just like the 'christians' from my home town.
> 
> Seeing how these people lived made me realize that going to church and talking about god really showed me nothing about how 'good' these people were.
> 
> I think the way they lived was the 'reason' they went to church. Not saying everyone at church is bad, just saying that going to church and appearing christian doesn't make you a good person.


Sam, that is the sad truth. And I was pointing fingers at other people pointing fingers and most of us here are Christians. The amazing thing is, we are all loved by God. There is nothing we can DO to prove that. And we have done nothing to earn it. It just is a powerful truth.


----------



## EleGirl

pidge70 said:


> He deserves as much credit as any other WS that he has commented on.


He's not a WS. He's a unmarried affair partner. There is a difference. 

He has admitted that he did something horrible and is working through it. He does deserve credit for doing this as do any WS who do so.

Sometimes, those who are too self-righteous have a falling. This has apparently happened with the OP. But he gets it now.


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> I think that the Christian bashing has to stop. The intolerance of the beliefs that someone holds on this thread is very very sad to see.


I don't see this a christian bashing. I have no problems with Christians. I happen to be one.

My problem is in people who preach and preach about being christian, who aren't really christian.


----------



## Zanne

Maybe OP has been around TAM too long.


----------



## pidge70

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't see this a christian bashing. I have no problems with Christians. I happen to be one.
> 
> My problem is in people who preach and preach about being christian, who aren't really christian.


I call them "pseudo Christians".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't see this a christian bashing. I have no problems with Christians. I happen to be one.
> 
> My problem is in people who preach and preach about being christian, who aren't really christian.


You are a Christian if you follow Christ. IMHO.


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't see this a christian bashing. I have no problems with Christians. I happen to be one.
> 
> My problem is in people who preach and preach about being christian, who aren't really christian.


After that post of yours I find it hard to believe that you do not have a problem with Christians... 

Are you suggesting that the OP is not really a Christian? Are you the judge and jury who determines who is Christian enough?


----------



## ReformedHubby

jld said:


> He came here and admitted this, right? We should at least give him credit for that.


I can't give him credit for admitting wrong doing to a bunch of anonymous strangers. He is the same man that wanted to criminalize adultery a few weeks ago.


----------



## WyshIknew

EleGirl said:


> Christians, Jew, and Muslims do not 'worship to' priests/pastors. Your language is a bit off here.
> 
> But to the point.... it's wrong, completely wrong, to come onto a thread started by a person who has stated what their belief system is and to start attacking their beliefs.
> 
> If the OP's beliefs offend you, then perhaps the best thing to do is to not post to him.
> 
> Now a question for you. When you do something wrong/bad, how do you handle it? Do you spend every waking moment of every day punishing and hating yourself for it? Please tell us, since you do not believe that there is a way to forgive yourself for your wrong doings.. how exactly do you live with yourself?


Not interested in bashing anybody, but atheist here.

If I do something bad I sincerely apologise to the person I wronged.
If they accept that apology then great, if not then that is a burden I have to bear for my misdeed.
Either way I try to amend my behaviour.

Religious or non-religious, we're not so different.


----------



## Zanne

The Apostle Paul was a murderer. Just saying. And for anyone who doesn't think Christianity has anything to do with this thread, OP specifically asked for feedback from Christians and he said to be as harsh as necessary!


----------



## EleGirl

WyshIknew said:


> Not interested in bashing anybody, but atheist here.
> 
> If I do something bad I sincerely apologise to the person I wronged.
> If they accept that apology then great, if not then that is a burden I have to bear for my misdeed.
> Either way I try to amend my behaviour.
> 
> Religious or non-religious, we're not so different.


I agree with what your point of view. 

That was my reason for asking that poster what they did. They probably do things similar to what religious people do. I just do not get the attacking.


----------



## anchorwatch

Boy oh boy, Wilderness. 

As always, you can be a real lighting rod of heated discussions around here.


----------



## EleGirl

Zanne said:


> The Apostle Paul was a murderer. Just saying. And for anyone who doesn't think Christianity has anything to do with this thread, OP specifically asked for feedback from Christians and he said to be as harsh as necessary!


Yep he introduced Christianity and invited even harsh responses. 

I don't think challenging his basic belief system and insulting Christians in general what was he was talking about and I don't think it's useful either.

(Not suggesting that you did this.)


----------



## Zanne

Hey Wilderness, I have a suggestion....how about if you write that letter you were going to write to my husband and give it to your girlfriend's husband? Would it apply? If not, why?

Also, IMO this is NOT a ONS...you two had a LTR. You should have stayed away, i.e. not responded to her inquiry. Boundaries, my friend.


----------



## pidge70

ReformedHubby said:


> I can't give him credit for admitting wrong doing to a bunch of anonymous strangers. He is the same man that wanted to criminalize adultery a few weeks ago.


I did so love this thread of his.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ion/153585-down-all-evil-wayward-spouses.html

And this gem....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/158833-leaver-martyr.html


----------



## Sandfly

Aesop's fable: The Cat and the Rooster. 

A Cat caught a Rooster, and pondered how he might think up a reasonable excuse for eating the Rooster.

The Cat accused the Rooster of being a nuisance to people by crowing in the night time and not permitting them to sleep. 

The Rooster defended himself by saying that he did this for the benefit of people, so that they get up in time for work.

The Cat replied, “Although you have many excuses... I shall not go hungry”; and he made a meal of him.

Moral: When you _want _to do something wicked, a justifiable reason can always be found.


----------



## pidge70

EleGirl said:


> He's not a WS. He's a unmarried affair partner. There is a difference.
> 
> He has admitted that he did something horrible and is working through it. He does deserve credit for doing this as do any WS who do so.
> 
> Sometimes, those who are too self-righteous have a falling. This has apparently happened with the OP. But he gets it now.


I can read thanks. I know he isn't a WS. Have you even read some of the horrible things he has said to a WS?


----------



## EleGirl

pidge70 said:


> I can read thanks. I know he isn't a WS. Have you even read some of the horrible things he has said to a WS?


Yes I have.

What do the things he had to say have to do with religion? 

I get that folk are upset about how harsh he's been in the past. He has been harsh. I've found that often the more self-righteous a person is the more likely they are to end up exactly where is right now.. finding out that he's human and were those other people he was being harsh to.

My more recent comments on the thread have been about people making some rather mean spirited comments about religious beliefs.


----------



## pidge70

> It's not your husband that's making you unhappy, it's you. Stay married.





> Yet you continue to intentionally harm her and her innocent children?
> if that is the way you treat your Christian brethren, I'd hate to see how u treat your enemies.





> If there is one thing that can always be counted on in a female unrepentant WS situation, it's the abuse card. It gets played every single time, no exceptions.





> If OM chooses to leave is wife, she will find out about this affair. Why not tell her now to save her the surprise? If you are afraid of the confrontation of telling her, I volunteer to do it for you.


----------



## ReformedHubby

pidge70 said:


> I did so love this thread of his.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ion/153585-down-all-evil-wayward-spouses.html
> 
> And this gem....
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/158833-leaver-martyr.html


I remember that one about putting all cheaters on an island. I responded to it. This is so similar to the people who hate gay people but actually are gay themselves.


----------



## pidge70

EleGirl said:


> Yes I have.
> 
> What do the things he had to say have to do with religion?
> 
> I get that folk are upset about how harsh he's been in the past. He has been harsh. I've found that often the more self-righteous a person is the more likely they are to end up exactly where is right now.. finding out that he's human and were those other people he was being harsh to.
> 
> My more recent comments on the thread have been about people making some rather mean spirited comments about religious beliefs.



I haven't attacked his religious beliefs. He stated himself that he is a hypocrite. I could care less what his beliefs are. I just find it very convenient that a "Christian" can break a commandment/sin and all they need is God's forgiveness. Must be nice to not have to atone for their wrongs to the person they actually did wrong.

FTR, I used to be a Southern Baptist but, I wised up.


----------



## wilderness

Guys-

I really f'ed up, bad. I should not have had sex with her. I can say that and acknowledge it, and I mean it. I can _feel_ it. I do not wish to harm another man and his family.

And everyone is right, my hypocrisy is self evident, transparent, and stunning.

I talked to her, and she was really upset after viewing this thread. She mentioned that she felt I was leaving some facts out which will make me look very bad. Well, she was right. There was some cheating during our relationship (mostly by me). There was some cheating during my marriage as well (some ONS).

I guess I rationalized it all, because I never had an affair in my life. I couldn't conceive of making a mistake and then refusing to stop making that mistake. I couldn't undertand it...

I've always been an emotional person, a person that feels things deeply. But I don't handle it like other people do. I tend to suppress the emotion, intellectualize it, use logic. Go against the grain. So in my mind I was blasting WS which I was not a part of, because I never had an affair. In my mind these people were really bad people, because how could someone _intentionally and continually _harm another human being? 

Those that looked closely may have noticed that I never called those that cheated and then stopped cheating on the carpet as harshly...Yes I realize how wrong this was.


All this being said, once I became a believer on Jesus Christ He changed my heart in such a way that cheating does not have nearly the pull on me that it once did. I believe that I'll never cheat again on another person.

This is the truth.


----------



## EleGirl

pidge70 said:


> I haven't attacked his religious beliefs. He stated himself that he is a hypocrite. I could care less what his beliefs are. I just find it very convenient that a "Christian" can break a commandment/sin and all they need is God's forgiveness. Must be nice to not have to atone for their wrongs to the person they actually did wrong.
> 
> FTR, I used to be a Southern Baptist but, I wised up.


In the Christianity that I am aware of, in order to get forgiveness of any sin a person has to atone for their wrongs to the person they actually wronged. There is no forgiveness without that.


----------



## wilderness

> It's not your husband that's making you unhappy, it's you. Stay married.
> 
> Quote:
> Yet you continue to intentionally harm her and her innocent children?
> if that is the way you treat your Christian brethren, I'd hate to see how u treat your enemies.
> 
> Quote:
> If there is one thing that can always be counted on in a female unrepentant WS situation, it's the abuse card. It gets played every single time, no exceptions.
> 
> Quote:
> If OM chooses to leave is wife, she will find out about this affair. Why not tell her now to save her the surprise? If you are afraid of the confrontation of telling her, I volunteer to do it for you.


Yes, Pidge...I said those things. They certainly demonstrate an appalling lack of discretion and tact. They are 'hard sayings'. That's on me, too. I see that now.


----------



## EleGirl

wilderness said:


> Guys-
> 
> I really f'ed up, bad. I should not have had sex with her. I can say that and acknowledge it, and I mean it. I can _feel_ it. I do not wish to harm another man and his family.
> 
> And everyone is right, my hypocrisy is self evident, transparent, and stunning.
> 
> I talked to her, and she was really upset after viewing this thread. She mentioned that she felt I was leaving some facts out which will make me look very bad. Well, she was right. There was some cheating during our relationship (mostly by me). There was some cheating during my marriage as well (some ONS).
> 
> I guess I rationalized it all, because I never had an affair in my life. I couldn't conceive of making a mistake and then refusing to stop making that mistake. I couldn't undertand it...
> 
> I've always been an emotional person, a person that feels things deeply. But I don't handle it like other people do. I tend to suppress the emotion, intellectualize it, use logic. Go against the grain. So in my mind I was blasting WS which I was not a part of, because I never had an affair. In my mind these people were really bad people, because how could someone _intentionally and continually _harm another human being?
> 
> Those that looked closely may have noticed that I never called those that cheated and then stopped cheating on the carpet as harshly...Yes I realize how wrong this was.
> 
> 
> All this being said, once I became a believer on Jesus Christ He changed my heart in such a way that cheating does not have nearly the pull on me that it once did. *I believe that I'll never cheat again on another person.*
> This is the truth.


Are you saying that you would never cheat when you are married to someone? Or are you saying that you will never participate in an affair, even if you are the unmarried partner?

By the way, do you realize that sex outside of marriage is also forbidden in Christianity?


----------



## wilderness

EleGirl said:


> Are you saying that you would never cheat when you are married to someone? Or are you saying that you will never participate in an affair, even if you are the unmarried partner?
> 
> By the way, do you realize that sex outside of marriage is also forbidden in Christianity?


I was saying that if I was in a relationship I'd never cheat. But yes, you make a good point. The marriage bed is undefiled..which makes the 'unmarriage' bed defiled.

To be 100% honest, most of my problems in my life whether before or after I became a Christian, have been based around sex. I've actually thought about chopping it off if I can't control myself for the purposes of the kingdom of God. I've always had a hard time with sex.


----------



## pidge70

> There was some cheating during my marriage as well (some ONS).


So, you cheated during your marriage? Did you confess to your W and beg her forgiveness?


----------



## jld

pidge70 said:


> He deserves as much credit as any other WS that he has commented on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know wilderness's background here, though I gather that the chickens are coming home to roost. 

I just think it is good that he is trying to face this, and be honest with himself, and with us.

We don't want him to run away, do we? We are trying to help him get on a healthier path, right?


----------



## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> So, you cheated during your marriage? Did you confess to your W and beg her forgiveness?


I never brought it up before because I don't believe it was a big deal in my marriage. Yes, I did tell her. I don't think she really cared that much. Knowing my ex wife, I think she expected it of me. Again, you'd have to know me before I became a believer on Jesus Christ. I was not somoene that one would expect to remain faithful. I'm pretty sure my ex wife didn't expect it and she said so many times.


----------



## wilderness

jld said:


> I don't know wilderness's background here, though I gather that the chickens are coming home to roost.
> 
> I just think it is good that he is trying to face this, and be honest with himself, and with us.
> 
> We don't want him to run away, do we? We are trying to help him get on a healthier path, right?


I'm not going anywhere, hoss. I'm ready to face the music.


----------



## pidge70

Hebrews 13:4 - Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but *****mongers and adulterers God will judge.

Leviticus 20:10 - And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.


----------



## pidge70

jld said:


> I don't know wilderness's background here, though I gather that the chickens are coming home to roost.
> 
> I just think it is good that he is trying to face this, and be honest with himself, and with us.
> 
> We don't want him to run away, do we? We are trying to help him get on a healthier path, right?


With all due respect, you have no clue what you are talking about. He has been banned quite a few times for the atrocious things he has said to WW's.


----------



## pidge70

wilderness said:


> I never brought it up before because I don't believe it was a big deal in my marriage. Yes, I did tell her. I don't think she really cared that much. Knowing my ex wife, I think she expected it of me. Again, you'd have to know me before I became a believer on Jesus Christ. I was not somoene that one would expect to remain faithful. I'm pretty sure my ex wife didn't expect it and she said so many times.


So, going on how you responded to other cheaters, your W should have left you and you should have given her everything.

I just find it very ironic that you feel you have a right to judge cheaters so harshly when you have been one numerous times.


----------



## jld

pidge70 said:


> With all due respect, you have no clue what you are talking about. He has been banned quite a few times for the atrocious things he has said to WW's.


Sounds terrible. It seems he is pretty ashamed of himself for that. And he certainly seems to be getting his comeuppance.

I hope you can turn all this around, wilderness.


----------



## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> With all due respect, you have no clue what you are talking about. He has been banned quite a few times for the atrocious things he has said to WW's.


You know, Pidge, I must confess you've never been my favorite person. What gives? Can't we make up and make nice? I'm _admitting_ that I've been a POS.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

karole said:


> Practice what you preach or quit preaching.


I was raised Roman Catholic, so I most likely have a different view of Christianity than wilderness does. In our corner of Christianity, we believe that God forgives all sin. However, you will not be forgiven unless you make amends for the sin. That means to confess what you did and to stop the action completely. IMHO, redemption in this case should mean cutting this woman out of his life for good. Even if you cut out this woman until she divorces, by definition, he would still profit from his sin since he had an EA with her before he took it physical with her. The EA prevented her from dialoguing with her BH and giving those two a chance to fix their marriage.

As a Christian man, I can't imagine any way he is redeemed in God's eyes without permanently cutting off all contact with this woman for good. Maybe they can meet up in the afterlife, but I can't see how meeting up while living is possible - if he wants to do right in God's eyes.


----------



## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> So, going on how you responded to other cheaters, your W should have left you and you should have given her everything.
> 
> I just find it very ironic that you feel you have a right to judge cheaters so harshly when you have been one numerous times.


I hear you there. I just wasn't the type of cheater that I was judging. Semantics, though. The lies we tell ourselves, I guess. This is beam in the eye stuff, and I acknowledge that I was dead wrong in the way I handled everything. I see that now.


----------



## pidge70

wilderness said:


> You know, Pidge, I must confess you've never been my favorite person. What gives? Can't we make up and make nice? I'm _admitting_ that I've been a POS.


No


----------



## NobodySpecial

EleGirl said:


> Why do you say that there would be no way if he were Catholic?


The Catholic doctrine of my youth was that marriage was a one time thing. It is possible but not easy to get an annulment. So since she would, in the eyes of the church, still be married, she could not be with him. Nor he with her since she was still married.

That catholics do that which is doctrinally not ok does not the doctrine change.


----------



## wilderness

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I was raised Roman Catholic, so I most likely have a different view of Christianity than wilderness does. In our corner of Christianity, we believe that God forgives all sin. However, you will not be forgiven unless you make amends for the sin. That means to confess what you did and to stop the action completely. IMHO, redemption in this case should mean cutting this woman out of his life for good. Even if you cut out this woman until she divorces, by definition, he would still profit from his sin since he had an EA with her before he took it physical with her. The EA prevented her from dialoguing with her BH and giving those two a chance to fix their marriage.
> 
> As a Christian man, I can't imagine any way he is redeemed in God's eyes without permanently cutting off all contact with this woman for good. Maybe they can meet up in the afterlife, but I can't see how meeting up while living is possible - if he wants to do right in God's eyes.


Was David not redeemed after taking Bathsheba to be a wife?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

pidge70 said:


> I haven't attacked his religious beliefs. He stated himself that he is a hypocrite. I could care less what his beliefs are. I just find it very convenient that a "Christian" can break a commandment/sin and all they need is God's forgiveness. *Must be nice to not have to atone for their wrongs to the person they actually did wrong.*
> 
> FTR, I used to be a Southern Baptist but, I wised up.


LOL, if you wee raised RCC, you'd know that just saying the "Sinner's Prayer" is not enough to achieve salvation. If you want forgiveness, you need to make amends. At least that's how I was raised. For example, if you stole money and you wanted to be forgiven for that sin, in the RCC you would go to confession. You could not profit from the sin, so as a condition of absolution you would be required to pay back what you owed. Obviously in cases of murder or infidelity, you can't unkill or unfvck someone, so you make amends the best you can. 

In his case, never seeing this woman again for the rest of his life is appropriate amends if you want to own up to your sin.


----------



## EleGirl

wilderness said:


> Was David not redeemed after taking Bathsheba to be a wife?


David? OT stuff. He was Jewish.

Matthew 19:8 He says to them, Moses, in view of your hardheartedness, allowed you to put away your wives; but from the beginning it was not thus.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> Was David not redeemed after taking Bathsheba to be a wife?


And David paid for his sins...

2Samuel12: 9-19


> 9 Why therefore hast thou despised the word of the Lord, to do evil in my sight? Thou hast killed Urias the Hethite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
> 
> 10 Therefore the sword shall never depart from thy house, because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Urias the Hethite to be thy wife.
> 
> 11 Thus saith the Lord: Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thy own house, and I will take thy wives before thy eyes I and give them to thy neighhour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
> 
> 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing in the sight of all Israel, and in the sight of the sun.
> 
> 13 And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And *Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die.*
> 
> 14 *Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.
> *
> 15 And Nathan returned to his house. The Lord also struck the child which the wife of Urias had borne to David, and his life was despaired of.
> 
> 16 *And David besought the Lord for the child: and David kept a fast, and going in by himself lay upon the ground.*
> 
> 17 And the ancients of his house came, to make him rise from the ground: but he would not, neither did he eat meat with them.
> 
> 18 And it came to pass on the seventh day that the child died: and the servants of David feared to tell him, that the child was dead. For they said: Behold when the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he would not hearken to our voice: how much more will he afflict himself if we tell him that the child is dead?
> 
> 19 *But when David saw his servants whispering, he understood that the child was dead*: and he said to his servants: Is the child dead? They answered him: He is dead.


----------



## ReformedHubby

wilderness said:


> Guys-
> 
> I really f'ed up, bad. I should not have had sex with her. I can say that and acknowledge it, and I mean it. I can _feel_ it. I do not wish to harm another man and his family.
> 
> And everyone is right, my hypocrisy is self evident, transparent, and stunning.
> 
> I talked to her, and she was really upset after viewing this thread.


Sorry, you lost me after you said you talked to her. Why are you still talking to her? Seriously it does you no good to come on here and claim you're sorry while at the same time planning a new life with her.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Do you plan to publicly apologize to your ex wife for all of the public trashing of her and the painting yourself as a huge victim you've done?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

ReformedHubby said:


> Sorry, you lost me after you said you talked to her. Why are you still talking to her? Seriously it does you no good to come on here and claim you're sorry while at the same time planning a new life with her.


I'm trying to figure out what to do, esse. She says she is getting a divorce. One option is to not talk to her again until she files. Is that what you would suggest?


----------



## pidge70

ReformedHubby said:


> Sorry, you lost me after you said you talked to her. Why are you still talking to her? Seriously it does you no good to come on here and claim you're sorry while at the same time planning a new life with her.


----------



## wilderness

lifeistooshort said:


> Do you plan to publicly apologize to your ex wife for all of the public trashing of her and the painting yourself as a huge victim you've done?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely not. She cheated on me 6 weeks before I was supposed to have my family reunited AND had me falsely imprisoned for 'verbal assault'. For the record, I have zero respect for you.


----------



## pidge70

wilderness said:


> I'm trying to figure out what to do, esse. She says she is getting a divorce. One option is to not talk to her again until she files. Is that what you would suggest?


Well, let's see.....what would you tell a woman who did what you did?


----------



## Anon Pink

wilderness said:


> You know, Pidge, I must confess you've never been my favorite person. What gives? Can't we make up and make nice? I'm _admitting_ that I've been a POS.


You are! And I think it's a great first step. Considering you have engaged in the very same behavior a few times, yes hypocrite is the right word. Unfortunately, you're going to have to take some hits along the way. Your attitude toward women and WS has been pretty unapologetic and vengeful. It has been enraging and hurtful. Reconciliation begins with understanding just how your behavior and words have caused hurt to others.

Gotta say wilderness, I'm impressed with how well you are taking all the anger. You deserve it, but you are taking it like a man and I respect that.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> Was David not redeemed after taking Bathsheba to be a wife?


LOL, You're reaching.  

Wilderness, how do you feel about spending the rest of your life with this woman after she is divorced? How does that rest on your heart, as a Christian? Or will you consider giving her up to get right with God? I'm just curious. I'm sure you understand why I ask. 

You did not respond to my question about the letter.


----------



## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> Well, let's see.....what would you tell a woman who did what you did?


I would tell her to go back to her husband. I already tried that, she said "no". So yes, I acknowledge a level of foolishness and denial for giving advice that was never going to be taken in the past.


----------



## NobodySpecial

wilderness said:


> I'm trying to figure out what to do, esse. She says she is getting a divorce. One option is to not talk to her again until she files. Is that what you would suggest?


Ok, I will tell you what I think you should do.

1. Talk to your clergyman if you are REALLY interested in getting right with your god.

2. Make an appointment with a therapist to get understanding of why you are of such low character so that you can prevent yourself from doing such a thing again.

3. Realize that if she would do it WITH you she would do it TO you. Make the wise move and just say no. For the long haul.


----------



## pidge70

Zanne said:


> LOL, You're reaching.
> 
> Wilderness, how do you feel about spending the rest of your life with this woman after she is divorced? How does that rest on your heart, as a Christian? Or will you consider giving her up to get right with God? I'm just curious. I'm sure you understand why I ask.
> 
> You did not respond respond to my question about the letter.


Not too mention, we could tell his AP's BH about his sex romp with his W.

ETA: I just realized how many abbreviations I used....Holy Smokes!


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> LOL, You're reaching.
> 
> Wilderness, how do you feel about spending the rest of your life with this woman after she is divorced? How does that rest on your heart, as a Christian? Or will you consider giving her up to get right with God? I'm just curious. I'm sure you understand why I ask.
> 
> You did not respond respond to my question about the letter.


About the letter- apples to apples you are welcome to write her a letter if I can write your OM a letter. Deal?

As to spending the rest of my life with the girl, it seems to me that she is going to divorce whether I'll have her or not. It doesn't _feel_ like I'm the one dividing the marriage asunder. Could I be wrong? Hell, yes! What's why I'm here.


----------



## ReformedHubby

wilderness said:


> I'm trying to figure out what to do, esse. She says she is getting a divorce. One option is to not talk to her again until she files. Is that what you would suggest?


So you are saying you want to be the guy waiting in the wings while she tells her husband ILYBINILWY. They go to counseling he works his a$$ off trying to make her happy. They get divorced anyway, and you show up a few months later and pretend nothing happened while she was married. 

Sorry but I can't relate to you. It wasn't enough for me to get forgiveness from God. That felt like taking the easy way out to me. I had to make amends with the ones I hurt the most before I could look myself in the mirror. If you want to do the right thing tell her husband what happened and move on with your life without her.


----------



## NobodySpecial

NobodySpecial said:


> Ok, I will tell you what I think you should do.
> 
> 1. Talk to your clergyman if you are REALLY interested in getting right with your god.
> 
> 2. Make an appointment with a therapist to get understanding of why you are of such low character so that you can prevent yourself from doing such a thing again.
> 
> 3. Realize that if she would do it WITH you she would do it TO you. Make the wise move and just say no. For the long haul.


Another thing. Recognize that this god dude does not give a rat's behind about you. And then do #2 and #3.


----------



## Anon Pink

The only way to find out is to go no contact until she has filed divorce papers and is living a single life.


----------



## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> Not too mention, we could tell his AP's BH about his sex romp with his W.


I told her she would have to make that decision about whether to tell him or not. Do you disagree? If so, why? I'm not married to a particular outcome, I sincerely don't know what is the right thing.


----------



## wilderness

NobodySpecial said:


> Another thing. Recognize that this god dude does not give a rat's behind about you. And then do #2 and #3.


Wrong, sir. God cares a great deal about me. About you, too.


----------



## NobodySpecial

wilderness said:


> Wrong, sir. God cares a great deal about me. About you, too.


But yet you don't seem to want to do what it takes to account for that. You want to have your cake. And eat it too.

I am female, incidentally.


----------



## ReformedHubby

wilderness said:


> I would tell her to go back to her husband. I already tried that, she said "no". So yes, I acknowledge a level of foolishness and denial for giving advice that was never going to be taken in the past.


I hate to come across as crass here but you can't tell somebody to go back to their husband when you're fVcking them.


----------



## Anon Pink

wilderness said:


> I told her she would have to make that decision about whether to tell him or not. Do you disagree? If so, why? I'm not married to a particular outcome, I sincerely don't know what is the right thing.


Come on wilderness, you're taking the chump way out. You know what needs to be done!


----------



## wilderness

ReformedHubby said:


> So you are saying you want to be the guy waiting in the wings while she tells her husband ILYBINILWY. They go to counseling he works his a$$ off trying to make her happy. They get divorced anyway, and you show up a few months later and pretend nothing happened while she was married.
> 
> Sorry but I can't relate to you. It wasn't enough for me to get forgiveness from God. That felt like taking the easy way out to me. I had to make amends with the ones I hurt the most before I could look myself in the mirror. If you want to do the right thing tell her husband what happened and move on with your life without her.


I hear you on this one. I don't want there to be secrecy and deception behind this. Thank you for this post.


----------



## wilderness

Anon Pink said:


> Come on wilderness, you're taking the chump way out. You know what needs to be done!


It doesn't feel that cut and dried to me. Do you really think he should know? I'm kind of feeling that the truth should be told, but I'm not certain.


----------



## wilderness

ReformedHubby said:


> I hate to come across as crass here but you can't tell somebody to go back to their husband when you're fVcking them.


I'm not 'fvcking her' it happened ONE time.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Yes, exposure is VERY important when a spouse cheats. Reconciliation is irrelevant. He has a right to know the truth. He kept HIS vows.

You should know, wilderness, that a person needs some time to themselves after a divorce - time to get their head straight. Although it would serve you right to immediately start dating only to have you become the "rebound" - what ironic justice... 

But if you walked away and didn't have any contact for over a year and THEN she still wanted you - then you can start a relationship with a sort-of clear conscience.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> I told her she would have to make that decision about whether to tell him or not. Do you disagree? If so, why? I'm not married to a particular outcome, I sincerely don't know what is the right thing.


Why don't you know what is the right thing to do? How can you be so foggy already??

YOU are the OM now. Why don't you face up to your mistakes? Is that what you would write to my OM? Tell me how different your scenario is.


----------



## Anon Pink

wilderness said:


> It doesn't feel that cut and dried to me. Do you really think he should know? I'm kind of feeling that the truth should be told, but I'm not certain.


It doesn't feel that way because you are on the other side of the coin.

If she is going to divorce him, not string him along, not be unfair in splitting finances or custody, than no, I don't think he needs to know.

But you won't KNOW any of that except by her. So what do you think is the right thing for her to do here?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> I would tell her to go back to her husband. I already tried that, she said "no". So yes, I acknowledge a level of foolishness and denial for giving advice that was never going to be taken in the past.


LOL! I can see this convo... 

W:"Look GF, you need to go back to your husband and work it out".

Her: "I don't wanna".

W: "OK, I tried". Might as well fvck since you don't want him anyways"...

IMHO, you don't give a rip about being forgiven by God. If you did, you would rip her out of your life for good. I've already given you a few bible verses to ponder that states what you need to do to get right with God (Read Matthew, Ch 5) and how in God's eyes you should not profit from your sin (2Samuel: 9 - 19). 

You are going to keep writing until someone gives you the answers you want to hear - specifically "Go ahead and pursue this woman. God will forgive you and you can be seen as a good Christian in his eyes". I guess you believe in OSAS. Bad bet if you are a Christian.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> Why don't you know what is the right thing to do? How can you be so foggy already??
> 
> YOU are the OM now. Why don't you face up to your mistakes? Is that what you would write to my OM? Tell me how different your scenario is.


Well she seemed so sold on divorce. I guess that's the answer. If she is going to divorce anyway, why f with the guy by making him hurt more? Is that so outrageous of a position to take?


----------



## ReformedHubby

wilderness said:


> I'm not 'fvcking her' it happened ONE time.


Based on your current mindset it will most certainly happen again. You honestly sound like somebody who is buying into the whole star crossed lover nonsense. Your behavior is off to me. Serials like I used to be don't typically get caught up in the fog.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> I'm not 'fvcking her' it happened ONE time.


How long ago? Recently I assume?

Are you still in contact with her since you fvcked her? Yes no doubt.

Would you fvck her again if you two were physically together alone? You probably don't want to know the answer to that one...


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> Well she seemed so sold on divorce. I guess that's the answer. If she is going to divorce anyway, why f with the guy by making him hurt more? Is that so outrageous of a position to take?


laughing audience sound effect - YouTube


----------



## wilderness

Plan 9 from OS said:


> LOL! I can see this convo...
> 
> W:"Look GF, you need to go back to your husband and work it out".
> 
> Her: "I don't wanna".
> 
> W: "OK, I tried". Might as well fvck since you don't want him anyways"...
> 
> IMHO, you don't give a rip about being forgiven by God. If you did, you would rip her out of your life for good. I've already given you a few bible verses to ponder that states what you need to do to get right with God (Read Matthew, Ch 5) and how in God's eyes you should not profit from your sin (2Samuel: 9 - 19).
> 
> You are going to keep writing until someone gives you the answers you want to hear - specifically "Go ahead and pursue this woman. God will forgive you and you can be seen as a good Christian in his eyes". I guess you believe in OSAS. Bad bet if you are a Christian.


I don't know about OSAS. I'm not qualified to make that call. I will absolutely read 2Samuel. I will absolutely pray more about this. I'm starting a fast tomorrow.


----------



## pidge70

wilderness said:


> Well she seemed so sold on divorce. I guess that's the answer. If she is going to divorce anyway, why f with the guy by making him hurt more? Is that so outrageous of a position to take?


Well, Zanne's OM seems sold on divorce as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

Plan 9 from OS said:


> How long ago? Recently I assume?
> 
> Are you still in contact with her since you fvcked her? Yes no doubt.
> 
> Would you fvck her again if you two were physically together alone? You probably don't want to know the answer to that one...


I hear you.


----------



## jld

Your conscience would be clearer if you were transparent with him about it all, wilderness. But he might physically harm you, or her.

You are really the one who knows the situation, not us.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I am copying this post for the next time some christian gets up in my face about being an atheist because atheists are immoral. OP you don't want to get right with god. That path is easy. You want to skirt the god legalese so you can have this woman.

P.S. I am not in any way casting aspersions on Christians. Just ones that claim you have to be one to be moral. Or that being one itself is a mark of morality.


----------



## committed4ever

EleGirl said:


> I think that the Christian bashing has to stop. The intolerance of the beliefs that someone holds on this thread is very very sad to see.


It's a lot of that on TAM. People who claim to be so "tolerant" are not so much when it comes to Christians. Then they want to lump all Christians together and say they are "hypocritical" and intolerant, bash, mock and curse the God we serve, yet they are so "tolerant."


----------



## Anon Pink

wilderness said:


> I don't know about OSAS. I'm not qualified to make that call. I will absolutely read 2Samuel. I will absolutely pray more about this. I'm starting a fast tomorrow.


Good lord don't fast!!!!! Your brain is already not quite firing on all it's cylinders. Don't fast!


----------



## wilderness

Anon Pink said:


> Good lord don't fast!!!!! Your brain is already not quite firing on all it's cylinders. Don't fast!


Anon, you don't understand. My experience with fasting is that it produces fruit. It brings a believer closer to God and takes away the power of the enemy. I know that you don't believe on my God but please understand, I would not lie to you about this.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> Well she seemed so sold on divorce. I guess that's the answer. If she is going to divorce anyway, why f with the guy by making him hurt more? Is that so outrageous of a position to take?


I have to agree with ReformedHubby, something is off with you.

But let me say this... I plan to divorce my husband, I had an affair with the INTENT to keep it a secret because I didn't think he needed to know. What say you? If you don't expose to her BS, does that make you a chump, as Anon put it? Or do you think everything should stay in the veil of darkness? Believe me, this is something I struggle with every day. I notice that you also did not respond to my comment about your daughter. Thoughts?


----------



## jld

Wilderness, maybe you should just take a step back and be honest with yourself. If you are determined to be with her, at least admit that to yourself. You don't have to live with all of us, but you do have to live with your own conscience.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> I hear you.


Then I'll "call off the dogs" and give you time to pray and fast over your situation. I figured you wanted some tough medicine. You practically begged for it in the OP.


----------



## Created2Write

committed4ever said:


> What a FASCINATING thread! Everyone seems to know the backstory but me and DoF who keeps hollering "DON'T TALK ABOUT GOD! DON'T TALK ABOUT GOD! I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IF YOU TALK ABOUT GOD!"
> 
> Anyway, Wilderness, as a Christian myself, married to a reformed bad boy although that's neither here nor there, I just can't understand why you don't think this is a very bad foundation to build a marriage on? This is what your history with her is, according to you:
> 
> 1. tumultuous relationship
> 2. I'm thinking awesome sex
> 3. Living a little on the edge
> 4. Not communicating enough to know that she wanted a little more stability
> 5. You finally reply to her contacting you which should have been forbidden since she was married
> 6. Having sex
> 7. Cheating and lying (at least by omission if she has not told her husband)
> 
> So now you are a Christian and you really think you can build something on that?
> 
> I really really feel for the position you are in but it does seem like fog to think you can take all of the bad stuff and build something good
> 
> And let me add to the others: God might be mad at you but you but He will forget all of that if you repent, meaning actually turn around and walk away frm this married woman. In the meantime, He still loves you no matter what. that's just how He rolls.


This. This, this, this. 

Forgiveness requires repentance, and in my opinion, it's _not_ repentance to sit around and wait for a married woman that you've had sex with to leave her other family. That's selfish. It's not romantic, it's not loving, it's straight up selfishness. And, based on what I've read in this thread, really foolish. She sounds like a horrible, horrible woman who has had you, and kept you, wrapped around her little finger for such an ocassion as this. 

You sound like you genuinely want a healthy, happy relationship that is founded on truth, and Biblical principles. You will NOT have any of that with this woman.


----------



## wilderness

jld said:


> Wilderness, maybe you should just take a step back and be honest with yourself. If you are determined to be with her, at least admit that to yourself. You don't have to live with all of us, but you do have to live with your own conscience.


Man, I'm struggling right now. Sure I'd love to be with her, but not at the expense of God or her husband! I'm just overwhelmed by these feelings, I don't know how to handle them. I guess I'm hoping against hope that somehow this will all work itself out, but I'll be honest- it won't!

I already know what I'm going to do. I'm going on a fast and I'm going to ask God to work this out for me.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> I have to agree with ReformedHubby, something is off with you.
> 
> But let me say this... I plan to divorce my husband, I had an affair with the INTENT to keep it a secret because I didn't think he needed to know. What say you? If you don't expose to her BS, does that make you a chump, as Anon put it? Or do you think everything should stay in the veil of darkness? Believe me, this is something I struggle with every day. I notice that you also did not respond to my comment about your daughter. Thoughts?


I'm sorry can you repeat the comment/question about my daughter?


----------



## NobodySpecial

wilderness said:


> Anon, you don't understand. My experience with fasting is that it produces fruit. It brings a believer closer to God and takes away the power of the enemy. I know that you don't believe on my God but please understand, I would not lie to you about this.


Wilderness. Who is the enemy?


----------



## Anon Pink

wilderness said:


> Anon, you don't understand. My experience with fasting is that it produces fruit. It brings a believer closer to God and takes away the power of the enemy. I know that you don't believe on my God but please understand, I would not lie to you about this.


I don't believe you ever lie wilderness. I believe that you believe everything you say. But that doesn't make it true.

If you insist on fasting, please touch bases with a clergy before you do this. You're under a severe emotional stress right now, your brain is trying to process and without nourishment, it will process incorrectly.


----------



## Unique Username

Blech

Seems like the others posting know your backstory.

If you were the Husband how would you feel?
Having been around TAM for more than a year - then you know quite well how the betrayed Spouse feels AND the load of donkey hooey about their spouse that a cheating spouse tells the person they had sex with...

Anyway,
Relationships based on lies and deceit usually end in lies and deceit


----------



## wilderness

NobodySpecial said:


> Wilderness. Who is the enemy?


The devil, the evil one. Fasting takes away the enemies power in my experience.


----------



## Anon Pink

NobodySpecial said:


> Wilderness. Who is the enemy?


He is a fundamentalist, so he believe in god and a devil. The enemy is the devil or satan. This is why is disturbs me to think of him fasting.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Then I'll "call off the dogs" and give you time to pray and fast over your situation. I figured you wanted some tough medicine. You practically begged for it in the OP.


This dog smells a man that wants to hide behind his religion instead of owning the consequences of his choices.


----------



## Unique Username

So, you are saying the devil made you do it?

You don't own the choice you made - the free will you took to unzip your fly, pull down your pants and insert your penis into another man's wife?

I would think that the first part of redemption would be OWNING the responsibility for the ACTION you took.

With that I am out.


----------



## NobodySpecial

wilderness said:


> The devil, the evil one. Fasting takes away the enemies power in my experience.


Whatever works for you. In the final analysis, only you know what it is going to take to motivate yourself. In the final analysis, YOU are the only one who can choose to do the right thing.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> I'm sorry can you repeat the comment/question about my daughter?


Here you go:


Zanne said:


> *Wilderness, one thing that may shake you... and it's something you have harped on me for months. Think about your own daughter. What if she knew the circumstances of this relationship?
> 
> I say this, not to get back at you, but as a fellow Christian who is genuinely sad to see another fall.*


----------



## wilderness

This is it. My decision.

I've never been someone that believes in half measures or being lukewarm. I'm either allin or all out.

In this case, I'm going to assume everything that she has told me is the truth. What to do from here-

1. I'm not going to fvck her again until the process of divorce moves forward. No matter what.
2. My heart will remain with her, 1000%, until and unless she proves that she was lying or changes her mind.
3. I will start a fast tomorrow. 
4. I will let God work it out.
5. The rest of the details are between her, me, her husband, and God.

Thank you all for your advice. Some of it was very good. Amen.


----------



## Unique Username

Isn't there some commandment about coveting and and some passages about lust in the heart being as much of a sin as the actual deed?


----------



## Zanne

Unique Username said:


> Isn't there some commandment about coveting and and some passages about lust in the heart being as much of a sin as the actual deed?


Yup


----------



## NobodySpecial

wilderness said:


> This is it. My decision.
> 
> I've never been someone that believes in half measures or being lukewarm. I'm either allin or all out.
> 
> In this case, I'm going to assume everything that she has told me is the truth. What to do from here-
> 
> 1. I'm not going to fvck her again until the process of divorce moves forward. No matter what.
> 2. My heart will remain with her, 1000%, until and unless she proves that she was lying or changes her mind.
> 3. I will start a fast tomorrow.
> 4. I will let God work it out.
> 5. The rest of the details are between her, me, her husband, and God.
> 
> Thank you all for your advice. Some of it was very good. Amen.


Honestly. You came here looking for advice. This is just lazy. If this satisfies your god, then he is cheap. You want what you want, AND to keep your supposed god. You are not a credit to Christianity.


----------



## GettingIt_2

OP, I think only you can decide if there is a way to redeem yourself in God's eyes. I'm not a Christian, but I'm betting there isn't a clear consensus about what you'd have to do. If you talk to enough people who are Christians/believe they are Christians, you'll find some who will tell you what you want to hear so that you can do what you want to do AND feel like it's "okay" with God. 

From where do you draw your religious strength? Do you belong to a church? Perhaps your regular religious community/culture is your best bet for guidance. 

That being said, I have no idea what is the "right' thing to do. On the one hand, telling the wronged husband might clear your conscious and would give him information about his wife that he is entitled too. On the other hand, it could also be considered selfish--particularly if he'd rather not know. If she's leaving him anyway, then I suppose there is no marriage to "save" by not spilling the beans about what was a one time thing (I hope.) But I do wonder if there are some men out there who would rather not know if their wife slipped up one time with an old flame. I guess that depends on the health of the marriage in the first place, whether or not the wife was contrite, and what the prospects for the future of the marriage are. 

Anyhoo, you're in a mud hole of colossal proportions. Best face it head on, do your fasting and your thinking if that's what you're set on, then move on and be a better man.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> This is it. My decision.
> 
> I've never been someone that believes in half measures or being lukewarm. I'm either allin or all out.
> 
> In this case, I'm going to assume everything that she has told me is the truth. What to do from here-
> 
> 1. I'm not going to fvck her again until the process of divorce moves forward. No matter what.
> 2. My heart will remain with her, 1000%, until and unless she proves that she was lying or changes her mind.
> 3. I will start a fast tomorrow.
> 4. I will let God work it out.
> 5. The rest of the details are between her, me, her husband, and God.
> 
> Thank you all for your advice. Some of it was very good. Amen.


You did exactly what I thought you would do. You kept engaging everyone in this thread until you could logically work out the answer you wanted from the time of your first post. Well done...


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> This is it. My decision.
> 
> I've never been someone that believes in half measures or being lukewarm. I'm either allin or all out.
> 
> In this case, I'm going to assume everything that she has told me is the truth. What to do from here-
> 
> 1. I'm not going to fvck her again until the process of divorce moves forward. No matter what.
> 2. My heart will remain with her, 1000%, until and unless she proves that she was lying or changes her mind.
> 3. I will start a fast tomorrow.
> 4. I will let God work it out.
> 5. The rest of the details are between her, me, her husband, and God.
> 
> Thank you all for your advice. Some of it was very good. Amen.


I think you put your bullets in the wrong order, chief...


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Rock on, you badass "Bad Boy"!!

AC/DC - Highway to Hell [Remastered HQ + Lyrics] - YouTube


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

So every WW lies but her? This isn't a ONS. 

Has she read some of your posts to other WWs and know what you have said to women like her? How does she feel about what you have said to other WWs?

It is a half measure to stop the sex but not the contact.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

On your head so be it.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Has she read some of your posts to other WWs and know what you have said to women like her? How does she feel about what you have said to other WWs?


If you are trying to go the route of transparency, it would be helpful to show her your posts, wilderness.


----------



## over20

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Rock on, you badass "Bad Boy"!!
> 
> AC/DC - Highway to Hell [Remastered HQ + Lyrics] - YouTube


That was not nice


----------



## pidge70

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> So every WW lies but her? This isn't a ONS.
> 
> Has she read some of your posts to other WWs and know what you have said to women like her? How does she feel about what you have said to other WWs?
> 
> It is a half measure to stop the sex but not the contact.


:allhail:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

over20 said:


> That was not nice


I agree. It's also self serving to start a thread pretending to make make a bunch of mea culpas only to later state that he was going to do exactly what he planned to do before he even started this thread. He had his answer already determined and wrapped himself in his religion. I'm just calling the hypocrite out for who he really is - especially in light of how merciless he's been to others in the past.

To be fair, I have no clue if he is on a highway to hell or not. No one would know that except God.


----------



## Miss Independent

Easy way out...sad. As a fellow Christian, I don't think God agrees with you. The devil has nothing to do with your decision to sleep with a married woman. Don't give advices you're not willing to take. Your situation is not different. You're in denial


----------



## karole

I guess you really can pick and choose your sins........


----------



## over20

That is not true, we all sin. We all struggle with different sins. I will be the first to say I am a filthy sinner. All sins are created equal though....except the sin against the HOLY SPIRIT....it is very hard even for me to wrap my head around, but I am not God.

This is why God calls us to forgive and show mercy


----------



## Unique Username

BUT

he is still coveting another man's wife

and lusting after her

so, if you continue to do these sins - how are you repentant?


----------



## Anon Pink

I suppose that will be the last we see of wilderness. He has no more credibility and has no right to enter into discussions.

I think everyone on this thread will hence forth call him out should he get on his soap box again. At least I hope so.


----------



## Anon Pink

over20 said:


> That is not true, we all sin. We all struggle with different sins. I will be the first to say I am a filthy sinner. All sins are created equal though....except the sin against the HOLY SPIRIT....it is very hard even for me to wrap my head around, but I am not God.
> 
> This is why God calls us to forgive and show mercy


Bla bla bla...

You don't forgive those who haven't fully seen the error of their ways. Mercy to he who asks. He hasn't.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

EleGirl said:


> Yes there is a way to get redemption. Since I'm not sure of your denomination, perhaps you should talk to your pastor/priest.
> 
> What about getting right with your wife? That's a huge issue too.


All sins are equal in the eyes of God. Stop asking everyone else if you can get right with him and just own what you did. I think you are already doing that. 

You are not damned to eternal hell for this. If you were, everyone on this forum would be, too. No one here hasn't lied, broken some law, coveted, etc. You are human just like everyone here, so stop worrying so much and STOP ASKING OTHERS TO JUDGE YOU!


----------



## over20

Unique Username said:


> BUT
> 
> he is still coveting another man's wife
> 
> and lusting after her
> 
> so, if you continue to do these sins - how are you repentant?


Very true UU...great point!!.....only God truly knows his heart...I mean, one can struggle every single day with sin, like me, and continually ask for forgiveness....The more time one spends in the word and through prayer....God can deliver and purge that sin from your life...


----------



## As'laDain

Wilderness...

welcome to humanity. you now understand what its like to be one of us poor folks that did something so terrible that you struggle to find a way to make it right, rationalize it, find forgiveness, etc. 

ive got news for you. your human. confess it, shine a light on your sin, and move on. dont sin anymore.

the way i look at it, once everyone knows where your weaknesses are, people will start to look after you. they will hold you accountable. if you tell the BH about your affair with his wife, he will take action to keep you away from her, to keep you from sinning with her, and causing her to sin against him. tell him, tell his family, tell your church, tell your family. 

tell everyone if you really want to be a man of God. why do you think we were supposed to confess our sins to begin with? make ourselves feel better? do you really think you can get forgiveness while hiding in the dark?


----------



## Wolf1974

NobodySpecial said:


> Honestly. You came here looking for advice. This is just lazy. If this satisfies your god, then he is cheap. You want what you want, AND to keep your supposed god. You are not a credit to Christianity.


Well this is how some of them are. I will do wrong all week then Sunday go to church, say sorry...Sunday afternoon I'm good...rinse and repeat. 

Personally they are some of the worse human beings I ever met. Including the pedophile I arrested who told me god was good with what he did.

Thankfully not all who are religious are this way.


----------



## Miss Independent

Wolf1974 said:


> Well this is how some of them are. I will do wrong all week then Sunday go to church, say sorry...Sunday afternoon I'm good...rinse and repeat.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally they are some of the worse human beings I ever met. Including the pedophile I arrested who told me god was good with what he did.
> 
> 
> 
> Thankfully not all who are religious are this way.



And that is why I stopped going to church


----------



## Wolf1974

Anon Pink said:


> I don't believe you ever *lie* wilderness. I believe that you believe everything you say. But that doesn't make it true.
> 
> If you insist on fasting, please touch bases with a clergy before you do this. You're under a severe emotional stress right now, your brain is trying to process and without nourishment, it will process incorrectly.


Sure he does and has on other threads


----------



## Wolf1974

spinsterdurga said:


> And that is why I stopped going to church


You and me both


----------



## over20

Wolf1974 said:


> Well this is how some of them are. I will do wrong all week then Sunday go to church, say sorry...Sunday afternoon I'm good...rinse and repeat.
> 
> Personally they are some of the worse human beings I ever met. Including the pedophile I arrested who told me god was good with what he did.
> 
> Thankfully not all who are religious are this way.


You are correct. I agree. Some of the meanest people I ever met were from the church. You are not alone in our experience. It really is sad.


----------



## WyshIknew

Good people are good people, bad people are bad people. Doesn't matter if you are Christian, atheist, pastafarian whatever.


----------



## over20

I guess the million dollar question is ,how can it be changed and can it be changed?? :scratchhead:


----------



## Unique Username

Wolf1974 said:


> Well this is how some of them are. I will do wrong all week then Sunday go to church, say sorry...Sunday afternoon I'm good...rinse and repeat.
> 
> Personally they are some of the worse human beings I ever met. Including the pedophile I arrested who told me god was good with what he did.
> 
> Thankfully not all who are religious are this way


reminds me of this


----------



## NobodySpecial

Wolf1974 said:


> Well this is how some of them are. I will do wrong all week then Sunday go to church, say sorry...Sunday afternoon I'm good...rinse and repeat.
> 
> Personally they are some of the worse human beings I ever met. Including the pedophile I arrested who told me god was good with what he did.
> 
> Thankfully not all who are religious are this way.


I confess that DH and I had a good laugh at his expense. Be a complete shmoe. Then just don't eat for a week. God likes that. :lol:


----------



## Wolf1974

Unique Username said:


> reminds me of this


Yes and further for this thread. I don't know if wilderness is making all this up to fuel drama or if it really happened. Hard to say given previous posting


----------



## Unique Username

What in the world is a Pastafarian?

Do they smoke pasta?

seriously, I don't know


----------



## over20

UU...great pic....but isn't that all of us? Christians are fractured people too.....Granted, there are some that claim that they are above....and I am sorry if I ever came across that way to anyone here.....I might have in a heated moment and that would be wrong. I have stated earlier that I am a sinner too, very filthy. I do recognize though that I need Christ to redeem me day after day after day......I extend an olive branch to anyone here...


----------



## over20

NobodySpecial said:


> I confess that DH and I had a good laugh at his expense. Be a complete shmoe. Then just don't eat for a week. God likes that. :lol:


That was not nice. One shouldn't make fun of another's beliefs...even if one thinks he is full of BS..


----------



## Unique Username

But he is NOT repentant

his final caveat/decision as he wrote it

he continues to covet and lust after another man's wife

only thing he said he would do is not fvck her (his words) 

and fast on it

so, answering his own question, using his own religion and it's doctrine and instruction

he is not repentant


----------



## WyshIknew

Unique Username said:


> What in the world is a Pastafarian?
> 
> Do they smoke pasta?
> 
> seriously, I don't know


Pastafarian.

Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Praise his noodly appendages. 

You also have Last Tuesdayism or Last Thursdayism.


----------



## lifeistooshort

wilderness said:


> Absolutely not. She cheated on me 6 weeks before I was supposed to have my family reunited AND had me falsely imprisoned for 'verbal assault'. For the record, I have zero respect for you.


Ouch, that hurts coming from you as I have zero respect for you. You are a f$cking phony of the highest order; bring this terrible anger for an ex gf you're still hung up on into your marriage, have lots of ons's, treat your wife like crap, but when she finds another man and dumps you you're a poor victim. Then have the nerve to preach God and Christ while doing what the h$ll you want to do anyway, and while you're at it blame the devil because it solidifies the fact that nothing is really your fault. Wait for you gf because you two deserve each other anyway and pray that your daughter doesn't end up with somebody like you. As I recall, all women want to be supported according to you so she's probably lining up her next meal ticket before she dumps her husband. Good luck with that.

For the record darlin, I'm happily married. I can see how your life is working out.

Peace out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## over20

I see your point UU.....he is struggling though....we should be encouraging him instead of making fun or judging him.....are any of us REALLY repentant :scratchhead:?


----------



## Unique Username

I am making fun of no one

(well, maybe Pastafarians)

And, in the original post he asked to be judged


----------



## anchorwatch

WyshIknew said:


> Pastafarian.
> 
> Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Praise his noodly appendages.
> 
> You also have Last Tuesdayism or Last Thursdayism.


Good one Wysh...


----------



## SurpriseMyself

jld said:


> Your conscience would be clearer if you were transparent with him about it all, wilderness. But he might physically harm you, or her.
> 
> You are really the one who knows the situation, not us.


What good would it do anyone for him to tell the husband? If the wife is leaving, she's leaving. If she does, I hope wilderness will give her time to get herself together or he risks losing her due to rebound effect. If she stays with her husband, it's her responsibility to tell her husband. Wilderness must never contact her again. 

Wilderness - you know what to do. Back away. Entirely. Let her figure out her situation without you. That is the only noble way to go. You don't need religion or God to tell you the truth; just good old common sense talking here!


----------



## over20

True....I think he wanted to be transparent. I think it has gotten out of hand a bit now though..


----------



## WyshIknew

anchorwatch said:


> Good one Wysh...


Well it's weird, things like Pastafarianism, Last Tuesdayism etc started as a 'joke' religion but they actually have real followers now.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

WyshIknew said:


> Good people are good people, bad people are bad people. Doesn't matter if you are Christian, atheist, *pastafarian* whatever.


Ahhh, Flying Spaghetti Monster sighting!


----------



## Unique Username

Isn't there something in the Bible somewhere that says something about we reap what we sow?


----------



## SurpriseMyself

wilderness said:


> I don't know about OSAS. I'm not qualified to make that call. I will absolutely read 2Samuel. I will absolutely pray more about this. I'm starting a fast tomorrow.


Enough with the praying and fasting! You know what to do! You don't need anybody to tell you what is right.

My dad, who doesn't have a religious bone in his body, taught me that I was always to tell the truth. He believed we were our own moral compass, and he taught me that the hard way.

When I was a teenager, my boyfriend stole an expensive watch from a store where he was working. The store just happened to be owned by someone my father knew. Well, my father figured out that the watch was stolen. What did he do? First, he asked me if it was stolen. I told him the truth. Then he and I went to see this very man together. He made me face this man and return the watch because I knew it had been stolen. I brought shame to my father when I accepted something stolen, and my father and I together owned up to the misdeed, he as the father who raised a child who took a wrong step and me as a child learning to be an adult. 

You don't need God or religion to tell you the right thing to do. In fact, I think people get so caught up in trying to interpret the Bible that they just throw out common sense and their own moral compass. It makes me ill! 

Stop with the rationalizing and leave this woman alone. She cheated. It's her job to figure out what to do next. It's your job to butt out!


----------



## over20

Unique Username said:


> Isn't there something in the Bible somewhere that says something about we reap what we sow?


Yes, "Do not be deceived, God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows." Galations 6:7

Also, "When they kept on questioning him, he (Jesus) straightened up and said to them, If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." (referring to Mary Magdalene) 
John 8:7


----------



## love=pain

EleGirl said:


> Christians, Jew, and Muslims do not 'worship to' priests/pastors. Your language is a bit off here.
> 
> But to the point.... it's wrong, completely wrong, to come onto a thread started by a person who has stated what their belief system is and to start attacking their beliefs.
> 
> If the OP's beliefs offend you, then perhaps the best thing to do is to not post to him.
> 
> Now a question for you. When you do something wrong/bad, how do you handle it? Do you spend every waking moment of every day punishing and hating yourself for it? Please tell us, since you do not believe that there is a way to forgive yourself for your wrong doings.. how exactly do you live with yourself?


Figured I would reply
First I know more about religion having grown up in a extremely religious household I also know about the religious racism that exists(if you don't believe as I do stuff). I have no problem with anyone and their beliefs, if you find a religion that works for you comforts you, gets you through the day then that is great. Everyone who needs the comfort of religion should find it and use it.
With that what I have no respect for is someone who shows little remorse for their actions then hides behind their god seeking forgiveness. God forgives when you show remorse and change your behavior which I have't heard this person post plus with the act itself not much love in my heart for cheaters. 
In fact he called himself a hypocrite so if he has so little respect for his religion why should I show him any.

Second I believe forgiving myself for my wrong doings is much better than begging a "GOD" to do it for me, mainly it's too easy to never hold yourself accountable because God will forgive.

If I have offended anyone's religion then I am sorry, damn now I have to forgive myself again.


----------



## over20

You have not offended anyone.....glad you posted!


----------



## SurpriseMyself

love=pain said:


> Second I believe forgiving myself for my wrong doings is much better than begging a "GOD" to do it for me, mainly it's too easy to never hold yourself accountable because God will forgive.


Never thought about it quite that way before, but this is well said and I believe very true. People throw away their own ability to judge right from wrong and substitute it with what they find in the Bible. Or they sin because they haven't developed their own moral compass to begin with since they are forever looking outside themselves to determine if something is good or ok.


----------



## JCD

wilderness said:


> Is there anyway this could be made right in God's eyes?


Yes. You need to go to the person you wronged and ask forgiveness and explain how you wronged him (no details).

Then you need to never go near her again.

To run off with her or continue the relationship is to double down on your already bad actions.

I think what you are actually asking is: can I have some way to keep her, break up her marriage and still be able to look at myself in the mirror?

Well, yes. If you callous your soul so much that you don't care anymore, you'll be just FINE with mirrors.

To continue to have character and keep her? No.

To make a mistake is human. To chose to continue to make these mistakes changes you as a person.


----------



## EleGirl

over20 said:


> I see your point UU.....he is struggling though....we should be encouraging him instead of making fun or judging him.....are any of us REALLY repentant :scratchhead:?


Yes we should be encouraging him to do the right thing instead of making fun of him and his beliefs.

Sometimes it takes a person a few days to come to their senses.


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> Wilderness, according to the CWI play book, you now have to confess to her husband and her children, if she has any. You also have to confess to her family and her husbands family. Right? Isn't that the CWI play book, to further hurt and humiliate the WS?
> 
> Like Anchor said, like isn't so black and white. What you did, wasn't to hurt and abuse her husband or children.
> 
> No contact with her until she is divorced. Let her deal with her side of the street.
> 
> What's she gonna do when she realizes the bad boy is now a man of faith? You are being sorely tested here.





Anon Pink said:


> And post yourself on cheaterville!


You say this in jest, but the man is stuck with two competing impulses.

One: he wants to keep his penis happy and keep the woman. Natural and evolution

Two: he knows he has SERIOUSLY violated his moral code, violated how he sees himself as a man, and wants to feel clean again.

So the snarky things you are suggesting are to accomplish the later. There is a long history of pain and sacrifice being redemptive to the soul.

Robert DeNiro did a MAGNIFICENT job portraying that in "The Mission".


----------



## JCD

wilderness, please excuse me for taking small advantage of your personal issues.

However, on the site and particularly in CWI, we have many pompous people who speak with great certainty that they are immune to the temptations of infidelity.

Essentially they say it is impossible for it to happen to them. Anyone who does this is essentially already a corrupt person.

Did you feel that you were immune to this? That your faith or character made you immune?

Personally, I feel everyone can be tempted with the correct set of circumstances may fail. So I am not faulting you for failing. 

I think this circumstances may be informative to the self assured.


----------



## Rowan

JCD said:


> Yes. You need to go to the person you wronged and ask forgiveness and explain how you wronged him (no details).
> 
> Then you need to never go near her again.
> 
> To run off with her or continue the relationship is to double down on your already bad actions.
> 
> I think what you are actually asking is: can I have some way to keep her, break up her marriage and still be able to look at myself in the mirror?
> 
> Well, yes. If you callous your soul so much that you don't care anymore, you'll be just FINE with mirrors.
> 
> To continue to have character and keep her? No.
> 
> To make a mistake is human. *To chose to continue to make these mistakes changes you as a person*.


In this thread, the OP admitted to having been a serial cheater in both his relationship with this ex and in his marriage. He just didn't consider a string of one night stands to be "affairs". He's spent months and months on this site berating WS's, and women in general of all stripes, in bitter tirades. People who had affairs were evil. But it seems that people who repeatedly had one night stands (like him) were apparently not really doing much of anything all that wrong. There's a level of self-delusion, extremism, anger and narcissism there that doesn't speak of stellar emotional health.

Frankly, I'm not all that sure how much his continuing on his chosen course here is going to change him. I rather suspect that choosing to continue making this "mistake" will simply be a continuation of who he has always been.


----------



## wilderness

JCD said:


> wilderness, please excuse me for taking small advantage of your personal issues.
> 
> However, on the site and particularly in CWI, we have many pompous people who speak with great certainty that they are immune to the temptations of infidelity.
> 
> Essentially they say it is impossible for it to happen to them. Anyone who does this is essentially already a corrupt person.
> 
> Did you feel that you were immune to this? That your faith or character made you immune?
> 
> Personally, I feel everyone can be tempted with the correct set of circumstances may fail. So I am not faulting you for failing.
> 
> I think this circumstances may be informative to the self assured.


I think for the most part, yes. I have had some pretty gorgeous married women proposition me in the past yet I never went there. So I thought I was immune to this sort of thing. I was wrong.


----------



## Decorum

JCD said:


> Yes. You need to go to the person you wronged and ask forgiveness and explain how you wronged him (no details).
> 
> Then you need to never go near her again.
> 
> To run off with her or continue the relationship is to double down on your already bad actions.
> 
> I think what you are actually asking is: can I have some way to keep her, break up her marriage and still be able to look at myself in the mirror?
> 
> Well, yes. If you callous your soul so much that you don't care anymore, you'll be just FINE with mirrors.
> 
> To continue to have character and keep her? No.
> 
> To make a mistake is human. To chose to continue to make these mistakes changes you as a person.


:iagree:





wilderness said:


> Is there anyway this could be made right in God's eyes?


You and God want different things.



wilderness said:


> "this"


 i.e. "A relationship with this woman" is what you want.

God wants you conformed to the image of His Son. (As you well know Romans 8:28-30)

He saw what was in your heart and provided you with a test so that by YOUR choice it would be revealed. Now you can see it too.

God chose the test not your failure.

Jeremiah 17:10
“I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways,
According to the results of his deeds.


God saw your bondage Wilderness, we all saw it but you.

The duplicity, hurt, anger, lust, etc.

Sometimes Gods way of delivering you is to let you taste the bitterness of your own doing.

This will not end well, because you are not right.

You will never get what you desire most out of this.

What is God looking for? ...Brokenness! (You have been broken before, that is not brokenness.)

Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justice, to love kindness,
And to walk humbly with your God?


You are in a position similar to Adam in the garden, its not about the serpent or the woman, its about your volition and His.

That's the lesson.

When you accept your condition He promises a Redeemer and you wear the skins.

I don't want to watch a brother struggle without extending a hand to help.

Wilderness I really do wish you well. Take care!


----------



## SurpriseMyself

JCD said:


> However, on the site and particularly in CWI, we have many pompous people who speak with great certainty that they are immune to the temptations of infidelity.
> 
> Essentially they say it is impossible for it to happen to them. Anyone who does this is essentially already a corrupt person.


Wait... if someone hasn't cheated and is proud of that fact, they are pompous and a corrupt person? That makes absolutely no sense.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

over20 said:


> That was not nice. One shouldn't make fun of another's beliefs...even if one thinks he is full of BS..


Why not? What makes religion so off limits compared to anything else? Everything you share on TAM is up for people to take shots at, but not religious views? Don't share them if you don't want them addressed from all vantage points.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

karole said:


> I guess you really can pick and choose your sins........


I think that is called free will.


----------



## EleGirl

EleGirl said:


> Now a question for you. When you do something wrong/bad, how do you handle it? Do you spend every waking moment of every day punishing and hating yourself for it? Please tell us, since you do not believe that there is a way to forgive yourself for your wrong doings.. how exactly do you live with yourself?





love=pain said:


> Figured I would reply


I’m glad you replied. My point is that your way of handing when you do something wrong/bad is not all that different from what a religious person would do. 

You say that you would only look for forgiveness within yourself. I would bet that this is not completely true. If you harmed someone, surely would you seek forgiveness from them through restitution? If you could not get it from that person(s), you might find another way to make things right. Then you could forgive yourself.

The major difference that I see is that in addition to what you would do, the OP feels that he needs to answer to a higher power, God. Sure he’s struggling with that. I think that over time he will come to the right conclusion. If he does not he’s going to get wacked by fate, karma, God (whatever you want to call it). The chances of any relationship with this woman working out are just about zero. This is not going to end well for him if he does not do the right thing NOW.



love=pain said:


> First I know more about religion having grown up in a extremely religious household I also know about the religious racism that exists(if you don't believe as I do stuff). I have no problem with anyone and their beliefs, if you find a religion that works for you comforts you, gets you through the day then that is great. Everyone who needs the comfort of religion should find it and use it.


What you call ‘religious racism’ is not unique to religious people. I see the same kind of ‘racism’ (It’s not racism. It’s intolerance of those who believe differently.) from non-religious people towards religious people as well.

I’m not a very religious person, but what bothered me on this thread is that I saw a lot of what you call ‘religious racism’ being used against the OP because he mentioned God and Christianity.


love=pain said:


> With that what I have no respect for is someone who shows little remorse for their actions then hides behind their god seeking forgiveness. God forgives when you show remorse and change your behavior which I have't heard this person post plus with the act itself not much love in my heart for cheaters.


I guess you and I have much different points of view. You interpret the OP as hiding behind God and showing no remorse. I see him as a person who very recently, like in the last 24 hours did something wrong and he’s freaking out. He came here to talk things through.. this is a support forum ya know.



love=pain said:


> In fact he called himself a hypocrite so if he has so little respect for his religion why should I show him any.


I guess I was raised differently than you. I was taught to always treat others with respect. If the other choses to not be respectful, that’s their problem.

I am also humble enough to realize that there are times when any of us could act in a hypocritical manner. I’ve done it sometimes. Sometimes things are not black and white. It can take a bit to figure things out. I cannot think of one person I know very well who has not been hypocritical once or twice in their life time.



love=pain said:


> Second I believe forgiving myself for my wrong doings is much better than begging a "GOD" to do it for me, mainly it's too easy to never hold yourself accountable because God will forgive.


My thoughts here. In this life, forging myself has little value to anyone but me. I’ve seen people do horrible things who forgive themselves far too easily. It’s easy for them because they hold themselves accountable to no one; not another person and not a higher power. To me what matters is what a person does to repent, to give restitution for the harm they have done. Basically the forgiveness needs to come from outside of themselves. Only after a person has set things right with those they have harmed and with their god (if they believe in a higher power) can self-forgiveness really mean anything at all. 

A person can go to a counselor, therapist or their religious leaders to confess and mull through the things that will help them right the wrongs that they have done. Asking the question of what does a person need to do to get right with God is not hiding behind God. It’s looking to figure out what to do based on their belief system.



love=pain said:


> If I have offended anyone's religion then I am sorry, damn now I have to forgive myself again.


----------



## EleGirl

ebp123 said:


> Why not? What makes religion so off limits compared to anything else? Everything you share on TAM is up for people to take shots at, but not religious views? Don't share them if you don't want them addressed from all vantage points.


It's not religion that is the issue. It's attacking a person because the poster is intolerant of their beliefs.. whether they are religious, agnostic, atheist, or whatever. 

If an atheist posts here, I'm not going to start posing Bible verses to them and telling them to repent according to some religious doctrine. By the same light, telling a religious person that their concept of morality (that it comes from God) is wrong is just as bad.

The purpose of this thread was not to discuss religion doctrine but instead to give the OP some support in handling this current crisis.


----------



## EleGirl

wilderness said:


> I think for the most part, yes. I have had some pretty gorgeous married women proposition me in the past yet I never went there. So I thought I was immune to this sort of thing. I was wrong.


This is a HUGE lesson you have learned. You are not immune to the temptation of human desires. No one is if they let their guard down.

This is why people need to take extraordinary precautions to avoid them. When she started to talk to you about her marriage, that was the time to tell her to not call you again and go seek help from a counselor or close friend/family.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

EleGirl said:


> It's not religion that is the issue. It's attacking a person because the poster is intolerant of their beliefs.. whether they are religious, agnostic, atheist, or whatever.
> 
> If an atheist posts here, I'm not going to start posing Bible verses to them and telling them to repent according to some religious doctrine. By the same light, telling a religious person that their concept of morality (that it comes from God) is wrong is just as bad.
> 
> The purpose of this thread was not to discuss religion doctrine but instead to give the OP some support in handling this current crisis.


Wait... we are on TAM, right? I have been raked over the coals for my beliefs on many occasions. But because someone attributes their beliefs to a religion rather than their own mind means that their faulty logic is off limits? The poster is using the Bible as he sees fit to justify his actions. If anything, being a Christian isn't serving him at all. He has no moral compass, it seems, and advocating that he do more of the same seems the opposite of what he should be doing. Fasting and praying is not what he needs. He needs a reality check, and that's what many on here are providing.


----------



## over20

I am so sorry that has happened to you......that is not fair..

He does have a moral compass....it is just really clouded....this is HOLY WEEK.....we all can follow Christ's lead...and follow Christ to the cross and then the grave.....


----------



## SimplyAmorous

JCD said:


> wilderness, please excuse me for taking small advantage of your personal issues.
> 
> However, on the site and particularly in CWI, we have many pompous people who speak with great certainty that they are immune to the temptations of infidelity.
> 
> Essentially they say it is impossible for it to happen to them. Anyone who does this is essentially already a corrupt person.
> 
> Did you feel that you were immune to this? That your faith or character made you immune?
> 
> Personally, I feel everyone can be tempted with the correct set of circumstances may fail. So I am not faulting you for failing.
> 
> I think this circumstances may be informative to the self assured.


I agree... One of the best threads on TAM is right here to explain how this works... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/21172-never-say-never.html

... I don't care what Faith anyone is.. means nothing.. the fact she was suffering in her marriage..sexless/ resentment ....explodes this sort of thing, add to this the lingering memories of what was...the perfect storm is born....raging...... without proper boundaries....it's like setting yourself up to "sin"...


----------



## EleGirl

ebp123 said:


> Wait... we are on TAM, right? I have been raked over the coals for my beliefs on many occasions. But because someone attributes their beliefs to a religion rather than their own mind means that their faulty logic is off limits? The poster is using the Bible as he sees fit to justify his actions. If anything, being a Christian isn't serving him at all. He has no moral compass, it seems, and advocating that he do more of the same seems the opposite of what he should be doing. Fasting and praying is not what he needs. He needs a reality check, and that's what many on here are providing.


I guess that I have not participated in a thread where you were raked over the coals for your beliefs. If the purpose of the thread was specifically a discussion of beliefs, then so be it. If you were asking for input and support on a serious life issue and you got that treatment, I consider it unacceptable. 

On the topic of his fasting and praying... if that's how he processes things in his life then so be it. I'm surely do not have all the answers and so cannot tell him if it's right or wrong for him to fast and pray. Maybe it will work for him. If sitting naked under a waterfall for 7 days contemplating the universe is what worked for him I'd say the same thing.. go for it.


----------



## Wolf1974

ebp123 said:


> Wait... if someone hasn't cheated and is proud of that fact, they are pompous and a corrupt person? That makes absolutely no sense.


Yeah not getting this either.

Sorry being cheated on was worse thing I have been through in a relationship. I wouldn't do that to another person. And I have had opportunities both while married and in other LTR and always said no. Some people won't cheat.


----------



## As'laDain

holy crap, what happened to being human? does anyone on this board think they are so good that they cant fall victim to temptation?

it reminds me of my buddies BEFORE we went to war. some of them said they were scared, some of them boasted. the ones that boasted ended up falling apart. the ones that said they were scared actually talked about it and got better. they admitted their weakness, and got over the pain of losing comrades. 

Wilderness is HUMAN. the only thing he needs to do is admit he is human and start on the path to healing and forgiveness. that means exposing his sins so that they can be forgiven. 

he is human. he makes mistakes, just like wayward spouses do. 


now, that said, i have a question for Wilderness....

are you willing to do what you SHOULD do?


----------



## EleGirl

As'laDain said:


> holy crap, what happened to being human? does anyone on this board think they are so good that they cant fall victim to temptation?


Apparently some do.. actually a lot do.


----------



## Wolf1974

As'laDain said:


> holy crap, what happened to being human? does anyone on this board think they are so good that they cant fall victim to temptation?
> 
> it reminds me of my buddies BEFORE we went to war. some of them said they were scared, some of them boasted. the ones that boasted ended up falling apart. the ones that said they were scared actually talked about it and got better. they admitted their weakness, and got over the pain of losing comrades.
> 
> Wilderness is HUMAN. the only thing he needs to do is admit he is human and start on the path to healing and forgiveness. that means exposing his sins so that they can be forgiven.
> 
> he is human. he makes mistakes, just like wayward spouses do.
> 
> 
> now, that said, i have a question for Wilderness....
> 
> are you willing to do what you SHOULD do?


It almost seems that some here act like temptation is this force that takes over and makes you do bad things like cheat or steal or whatever.

Temptation is everywhere in life. To cheat, lie, steal, hurt others whatever. But while we all have temptation people still either make the decision to stay or walk away. Always the choice is involved.


----------



## RClawson

About 5 pages in I began to have RJ triggers like never before. I am done with this thread. Way to close to home. 

I hope you two are happy together wilderness. You deserve one another.


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> Apparently some do.. actually a lot do.


And a lot more should. Especially when it comes to marriage and vows. The expectation, minus swingers I guess, is that once you're married you are exclusive to one another. You make that choice to make those vows as you would make a choice to cheat and break the vows.


----------



## As'laDain

Wolf1974 said:


> It almost seems that some here act like temptation is this force that takes over and makes you do bad things like cheat or steal or whatever.
> 
> Temptation is everywhere in life. To cheat, lie, steal, hurt others whatever. But while we all have temptation people still either make the decision to stay or walk away. Always the choice is involved.


temptation is individual. its the thing that each of us crave so much that we will be willing to look the other way for. 

we think that those who are strong are those who can refuse the things that we cannot refuse. in other words, if i can refuse my first lover, who i dated and loved for six years, than i must be stronger than Wilderness. but the truth is that i have my own temtations. i may be able to turn down a past lover, someone i wanted with all my heart back in the day, but i cant turn down a shot of vodka or a cigarette. 

in the end, we are both in the same boat. we are both addicted. neither of us think we can overcome the difficulties of doing what we BOTH know that we should be doing. 

temptation is the thing that you think about all day long whether you want to or not. its the thing that distracts you from everything else in life. its the thing that distracts you from simple logic. i know that cigarettes and booze will kill me. Wilderness knows that further contact with his affair partner is WRONG. both of us continue it. both of us are addicted.

in both of our cases, i think the only way to actually affect a positive outcome is to come clean. let the world hold us accountable. 

so, Wilderness, as an addict who is just now beginning to understand what it takes to recover, i ask you...

are you willing to cut loose the thing that brings you so much pleasure and so much destruction? 

are you willing to make yourself known?


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> This is it. My decision.
> 
> 1. I'm not going to fvck her again until the process of divorce moves forward. No matter what.


I find the choice of words to be very interesting. 

If she files divorce papers is that moving the process forward?
How about if all she does is meet with a lawyer?
Maybe all she has to do is make an appointment with a lawyer?
Or just think about calling a lawyer?

All of these could meet the definition of moving forward the process of divorce. 

A more godly approach would be to wait until she is actually not married. Still good would be to wait until she has at least filed, told her husband, and left the family home. 

Hypocrite just doesn't seem a strong enough word.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Rowan said:


> In this thread, the OP admitted to having been a serial cheater in both his relationship with this ex and in his marriage. He just didn't consider a string of one night stands to be "affairs". He's spent months and months on this site berating WS's, and women in general of all stripes, in bitter tirades. People who had affairs were evil. But it seems that people who repeatedly had one night stands (like him) were apparently not really doing much of anything all that wrong. There's a level of self-delusion, extremism, anger and narcissism there that doesn't speak of stellar emotional health.
> 
> Frankly, I'm not all that sure how much his continuing on his chosen course here is going to change him. I rather suspect that choosing to continue making this "mistake" will simply be a continuation of who he has always been.


:iagree:
He is human, so are the others on this board and with the amount of venom he has thrown at other cheaters (while managing to neglect he also cheated in his marriage) and the venom he has thrown at women in general, imo he is getting very human responses.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

wilderness said:


> My critics are going to have a field day with this one. And rightly so. If there are Christians that are listening, please give me some feedback and make it as harsh as you want.


I am reacting right after having read this, so I don't know what is in the next lines of your post.

But I need to react directly. Because the unique feature of Christianity is the concept of forgiving. All other religions are based on accounting of the balance of good and wrong, thus one creates his own judgement or reward in life.

Old and New Testament are about how God forgives people all the time and one can start over again with a clean sheet. Over and over again. And we have to do the same to each other. That does not do away with what our tasks in life are, or with the concept of good and bad in deciding what we have to do.

So...without hesitation, the one thing Christians should do to you is possibly being harsh on your behavior, but forgiving and loving to you as a person....


----------



## AliceA

Well, if you're Christian, then you just broke one of the ten commandments; "You shall not commit adultery", but, if you're Christian you also believe that you can wash away all your sins through confession; 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness". So go confess. Then, if you're Christian, you could go jump her bones again, and as long as you confess, it's all good. Happy humping.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Best troll post ever, my hats off to you Wilderness.


----------



## Sandfly

Anon Pink said:


> The only way to find out is to go no contact until she has filed divorce papers and is living a single life.


Aye - definitely this, unless you stay out of someone's marriage, you're an opportunist sneak, sneaking around!


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> This is it. My decision.
> 
> I've never been someone that believes in half measures or being lukewarm. I'm either allin or all out.
> 
> In this case, I'm going to assume everything that she has told me is the truth. What to do from here-
> 
> 1. I'm not going to fvck her again until the process of divorce moves forward. No matter what.
> 2. My heart will remain with her, 1000%, until and unless she proves that she was lying or changes her mind.
> 3. I will start a fast tomorrow.
> 4. I will let God work it out.
> 5. The rest of the details are between her, me, her husband, and God.
> 
> Thank you all for your advice. Some of it was very good. Amen.


You know the truth. You know what God thinks of divorce. And you have just told her (because she reads this thread) that if she disobeys God and leaves her husband you will go after her. 

Home wrecker?

Exactly which of God's teachings about the wrong you are doing here will change because you skip a couple of meals?

Exactly how is someone who cheats on their husband and conspires to leave them for another man a person of truth and honour?

You are not being true to your beliefs Wilderness. 

Drawing your attention to this quote from your thread, which reminds you exactly what is right.



wilderness said:


> Sure I'd love to be with her, but not at the expense of God or her husband!


----------



## wilderness

Starting my fast today. Maybe I'm not thinking clearly.


----------



## Anon Pink

wilderness said:


> Starting my fast today. Maybe I'm not thinking clearly.


No, you're not thinking clearly.

What you need is therapy, not fasting.


----------



## karole

Forgiveness is a precious gift; however, forgiveness does not do away with the consequences of your actions


----------



## Rowan

I guess what has puzzled me the most about this entire thread is that Wilderness seems to have not realized he was susceptible to this type of temptation. He has cheated numerous times in the past - on both this woman and on his wife. Surely he knew, from experience, that he was susceptible to sexual temptation? He has a history of random sexual hookups and infidelity of his own.

How is a man with a history of serial cheating blindsided to find himself the other man in someone else's marital infidelity? Didn't he realize that at least some of his former ONS's might also have been married or in relationships? The truth is, he's likely been the other man before on more than one occasion. So how did he consider himself above this type of temptation? 

Or is it just that he was blindsided to find himself _emotionally_ involved - which he somehow sees as evil, where purely sexual cheating is not?


----------



## wilderness

Rowan said:


> I guess what has puzzled me the most about this entire thread is that Wilderness seems to have not realized he was susceptible to this type of temptation. He has cheated numerous times in the past - on both this woman and on his wife. Surely he knew, from experience, that he was susceptible to sexual temptation? He has a history of random sexual hookups and infidelity of his own.
> 
> How is a man with a history of serial cheating blindsided to find himself the other man in someone else's marital infidelity? Didn't he realize that at least some of his former ONS's might also have been married or in relationships? The truth is, he's likely been the other man before on more than one occasion. So how did he consider himself above this type of temptation?
> 
> Or is it just that he was blindsided to find himself _emotionally_ involved - which he somehow sees as evil, where purely sexual cheating is not?


I wasn't a serial cheater. That is not an accurate or fair statement. Yes, I did cheat on my ex before my wife, but it was not in a serial way. It happened twice and she cheated in me as well. That relationship, for lack of a better word, was a whirlwind.

As to 'cheating' on my wife, that type of fidelity on my part was never an expectation of my marriage. My wife would joke about it all the time. "Who did you f last night", with a smile. Honestly I think it kind of turned her on. She talked to friends of mine about it, so I know it wasn't something that she expected out of me. When she asked me about it point blank, I told her. After I became a believer on Jesus Christ, my wandering eye slowed down and eventually stopped. That was when I started having problems in my marriage, (and also after my daughter was born, having to take care of her all night). It's really unfair to characterize those ONS as something that was 'serial cheating'.

I'm sorry if this sounds defensive. It's not that I was the perfect model of fidelity, it's just that the characterization of 'serial cheater' is not accurate.


----------



## DoF

Anon Pink said:


> No, you're not thinking clearly.
> 
> What you need is therapy, not fasting.


Agreed


----------



## PBear

Wilderness,

You realize that just by being there for her as a safety net, you can blow up her marriage just as surely as by sleeping with her again? If you truly want to "make things right", you need to remove yourself from the equation completely. 

What do your religious leaders say when you discuss your dilemma? Or do you not have the stomach to expose yourself in a "non-anonymous" way?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DoF

He will keep banging her, god won't stop him and will forgive him on Sunday anyways.



You see OP, unfortunately (to many us, fortunately) we are all in control of our own actions.

YOU are the one that fixed yourself, not any other entity etc. Learn to tap into yourself OFTEN, life will throw all kinds of things at you that YOU will have to deal with.


----------



## wilderness

PBear said:


> Wilderness,
> 
> You realize that just by being there for her as a safety net, you can blow up her marriage just as surely as by sleeping with her again? If you truly want to "make things right", you need to remove yourself from the equation completely.
> 
> What do your religious leaders say when you discuss your dilemma? Or do you not have the stomach to expose yourself in a "non-anonymous" way?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm going to discuss this matter with my Pastor and bible study leader. Probably on Thursday. I hear you on the safety net thing. Only thing about that is, if you hear her tell it, they were getting divorced before I came into the picture, anyway. But I guess you never know what can happen to change things.


----------



## PBear

wilderness said:


> I'm going to discuss this matter with my Pastor and bible study leader. Probably on Thursday. I hear you on the safety net thing. Only thing about that is, if you hear her tell it, they were getting divorced before I came into the picture, anyway. But I guess you never know what can happen to change things.


You know as well as we do that she's re-writing her history. She may even believe it herself. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DoF

wilderness said:


> I'm going to discuss this matter with my Pastor and bible study leader. Probably on Thursday. I hear you on the safety net thing. Only thing about that is, if you hear her tell it, they were getting divorced before I came into the picture, anyway. But I guess you never know what can happen to change things.


Why are you consistently bringing religion/pastor and bible study leader into this?

You have 20+ people here giving you a great advice.......

Remember, ANYTHING can be made into positive or negative when it comes to religion. It's like law/justice system, there can always be a different "right" answer.....and can be twisted by a person/entity AS THEY PLEASE and with influence of money.

Remember, your church is a BUSINESS.


----------



## wilderness

DoF said:


> Why are you consistently bringing religion/pastor and bible study leader into this?
> 
> You have 20+ people here giving you a great advice.......
> 
> Remember, ANYTHING can be made into positive or negative when it comes to religion. It's like law/justice system, there can always be a different "right" answer.....and can be twisted by a person/entity AS THEY PLEASE and with influence of money.
> 
> Remember, your church is a BUSINESS.


These men will help hold me accountable for what I do in the future. What is wrong with that?


----------



## SadSamIAm

SadSamIAm said:


> I find the choice of words to be very interesting.
> 
> If she files divorce papers is that moving the process forward?
> How about if all she does is meet with a lawyer?
> Maybe all she has to do is make an appointment with a lawyer?
> Or just think about calling a lawyer?
> 
> All of these could meet the definition of moving forward the process of divorce.
> 
> A more godly approach would be to wait until she is actually not married. Still good would be to wait until she has at least filed, told her husband, and left the family home.
> 
> Hypocrite just doesn't seem a strong enough word.


I see you 'liked' my post Wilderness, but you didn't comment on it.

I am curious about a couple of things:

1) When will you fuvk her again? What needs to happen before God will be OK with it?

2) Why use the word 'fuvk'?

To me, used in this context, the word 'fuvk' is very disrespectful. My guess is when your lover read this thread and saw how you talked about 'fuvking' her, that she would feel used.


----------



## DoF

wilderness said:


> These men will help hold me accountable for what I do in the future. What is wrong with that?


Accountable? YOU need to learn to rely on YOURSELF and YOURSELF ONLY.

No one but YOURSELF should be holding you accountable. And that will come naturally as you HAVE BEEN and CONTINUE to deal with consequences of YOUR actions.

You are a MAN, don't act like a boy.

I'm sorry to be so rough on you....YOU need to figure out what you want to do, what you like and what you should do. 

Religion will only steer you THEIR way, not YOUR way. And they will do so as long as you are willing to pay up.

You are 100x better off getting proper/professional counseling!!!!

Just the fact that you slept with a married woman (your ex) = you are not thinking clearly. Especially since that woman left you for another man!!!!

Think with your brain......not bible......your heart or your penis. Bible is probably the most dangerous one, followed closely by penis thinking.....and heart.

Using ANY of those to think = HUGE mistake in my eyes.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

SadSamIAm said:


> I see you 'liked' my post Wilderness, but you didn't comment on it.
> 
> I am curious about a couple of things:
> 
> 1) When will you fuvk her again? What needs to happen before God will be OK with it?
> 
> 2) Why use the word 'fuvk'?
> 
> To me, used in this context, the word 'fuvk' is very disrespectful. My guess is when your lover read this thread and saw how you talked about 'fuvking' her, that she would feel used.


Sadly, no. It will probably get her hot. It's part of the endearing charm of a Bad Boy. Although, he may have keyed off of what others have wrote earlier. I used that term earlier in the thread, so maybe that's why he's using it.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

wilderness said:


> These men will help hold me accountable for what I do in the future. What is wrong with that?


Why can't you hold yourself accountable? You don't think you are strong enough to hold yourself to what you need to do? It's as if you are in AA and need a sponsor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

ebp123 said:


> Why can't you hold yourself accountable? You don't think you are strong enough to hold yourself to what you need to do? It's as if you are in AA and need a sponsor.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think everyone needs a little help now and then. I'm going to reach out to men that I trust, and to God, for help. I'm sorry if that offends anyone. I am trying to do the right thing. I don't want to hurt people or families. Yes, I should have thought about that before I slept with her (the less crude way of saying it, for those that prefer). It's very easy to _intellectually_ say what many are saying on this thread, I get it. I would have been saying the same thing myself. But when in the middle of something like this..well, it's easier said than done to do the right thing.

Thank you all for your feedback, however.


----------



## DoF

Wilderness, I want you to know that many members on this forum (including me) are here for you.

Chances are you will get a perspective from ALL walks of life around these ways.

We also won't charge you for the great advice we have/will give you and will not force "rules" or religion of some kind down your throat.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

I will give you this, wilderness, and that is you are actually thinking about what to do. My H had a 9 year affair with a married woman, and I know the most he ever did was feel guilty about it. And hide it from his strict, Bible believing parents. So much for being raised with religion! I was raised to find my own beliefs, whatever I decided, and I never would do what my H did!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SurpriseMyself

wilderness said:


> I think everyone needs a little help now and then. I'm going to reach out to men that I trust, and to God, for help. I'm sorry if that offends anyone. I am trying to do the right thing. I don't want to hurt people or families. Yes, I should have thought about that before I slept with her (the less crude way of saying it, for those that prefer). It's very easy to _intellectually_ say what many are saying on this thread, I get it. I would have been saying the same thing myself. But when in the middle of something like this..well, it's easier said than done to do the right thing.
> 
> Thank you all for your feedback, however.


Doing the right thing is never easy. And I know for a fact that is a teaching straight from the Bible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ebp123 said:


> I will give you this, wilderness, and that is you are actually thinking about what to do. My H had a 9 year affair with a married woman, and I know the most he ever did was feel guilty about it. And hide it from his strict, Bible believing parents. So much for being raised with religion! I was raised to find my own beliefs, whatever I decided, and I never would do what my H did!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh my gosh, ebp. Was that before he was with you? I hope so.


----------



## EleGirl

wilderness said:


> I think everyone needs a little help now and then. I'm going to reach out to men that I trust, and to God, for help. I'm sorry if that offends anyone. I am trying to do the right thing. I don't want to hurt people or families. Yes, I should have thought about that before I slept with her (the less crude way of saying it, for those that prefer). It's very easy to _intellectually_ say what many are saying on this thread, I get it. I would have been saying the same thing myself. But when in the middle of something like this..well, it's easier said than done to do the right thing.
> 
> Thank you all for your feedback, however.


Hey, I get it. Sometimes it is a good to have others that you can go to for support. Don't let anyone here who is acting like there is something wrong with you getting some help/support sway you from do it.

We tell people here all the time to go to counseling. Now some are telling you that it's a bad idea?????? I just don't get it.


----------



## techmom

I'm wondering if the men's rights advocates will show up and defend one of their own...


----------



## wilderness

Hi guys. I just wanted to check in and say that I haven't had sex with her again. She has told her husband she wants a divorce. I was considering going NC with her in case by some miracle she reconciles with her husband. We are both very remorseful over what we have done but still love each other. I have been praying a lot over this. I pray God's will be done. I pray tot her husband as well.


----------



## over20

Be Careful. God has called you to lead a life of integrity. You are not bought with silver and gold but by the precious blood of Christ. Your life is not your own. Does this situation bring Glory to God friend? I think God is very pained by this. You still need to go NC with her. You also need an accountability partner, a man. 

One can love another and still do the RIGHT thing


----------



## Miss Independent

wilderness said:


> Hi guys. I just wanted to check in and say that I haven't had sex with her again. She has told her husband she wants a divorce. I was considering going NC with her in case by some miracle she reconciles with her husband. We are both very remorseful over what we have done but still love each other. I have been praying a lot over this. I pray God's will be done. I pray tot her husband as well.



So you're situation is different from Zanne huh?


----------



## JCD

wilderness said:


> These men will help hold me accountable for what I do in the future. What is wrong with that?


Only if you are honest with them.

EVERYONE lies about sex.


----------



## JCD

techmom said:


> I'm wondering if the men's rights advocates will show up and defend one of their own...



Why would I defend bad action? And from where I stand, only ONE man needs defending, and it isn't wilderness. He is not the victim here, he is the homewrecker.


----------



## JCD

wilderness said:


> Hi guys. I just wanted to check in and say that I haven't had sex with her again. She has told her husband she wants a divorce. I was considering going NC with her in case by some miracle she reconciles with her husband. We are both very remorseful over what we have done but still love each other. I have been praying a lot over this. I pray God's will be done. I pray tot her husband as well.


The Truth shall set you free...

Oh WHERE did I read that?

Your logic is seriously flawed, by the way.

IF, as you state, she is getting divorced anyway, the man and the family will already be destroyed and the members hurt.

What your silence buys isn't a lack of hurt. It is buying you and her a soft landing. It is allowing her to hold onto some moral pedestal which she is not entitled to and she will likely use to manipulate the situation.

So you aren't defending the husband at all. You are defending the wife...your future lover.

And...telling the truth will permanently stain the relationship in the eyes of the public (it is already stained in the eyes of God). You want to avoid that like the plague.

This is very self serving. And these critiques are going to make you defensive. Vicious cycle.


----------



## As'laDain

JCD said:


> The Truth shall set you free...
> 
> Oh WHERE did I read that?
> 
> Your logic is seriously flawed, by the way.
> 
> IF, as you state, she is getting divorced anyway, the man and the family will already be destroyed and the members hurt.
> 
> What your silence buys isn't a lack of hurt. It is buying you and her a soft landing. It is allowing her to hold onto some moral pedestal which she is not entitled to and she will likely use to manipulate the situation.
> 
> So you aren't defending the husband at all. You are defending the wife...your future lover.
> 
> And...telling the truth will permanently stain the relationship in the eyes of the public (it is already stained in the eyes of God). You want to avoid that like the plague.
> 
> This is very self serving. And these critiques are going to make you defensive. Vicious cycle.



i dont think he wants to get right with God...

i think he wants to hide in the dark. 

sad.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> Hi guys. I just wanted to check in and say that I haven't had sex with her again. She has told her husband she wants a divorce. I was considering going NC with her in case by some miracle she reconciles with her husband. We are both very remorseful over what we have done but still love each other. I have been praying a lot over this. I pray God's will be done. I pray tot her husband as well.


Luke 16:18
Mark 10:11-12
Matthew 19:9
Matthew 5:32

Praying for God's will while actively disobeying is an interesting theological position. Praying for her husband while you steal his wife is also a bit sad. The fact (?) that you haven't had sex with her again (yet) doesn't make you clean.

Plus what you are doing is pretty dumb from a relationship point of view. You are going to get hurt. But you are the one going on about prayer and fasting while you disobey.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> Luke 16:18
> Mark 10:11-12
> Matthew 19:9
> Matthew 5:32
> 
> Praying for God's will while actively disobeying is an interesting theological position. Praying for her husband while you steal his wife is also a bit sad. The fact (?) that you haven't had sex with her again (yet) doesn't make you clean.
> 
> Plus what you are doing is pretty dumb from a relationship point of view. You are going to get hurt. But you are the one going on about prayer and fasting while you disobey.



What would obeying look like? NC ever again, as opposed to NC for the time being?


----------



## Unique Username

Does the married woman you had sex with have children?


----------



## Unique Username

Down with all evil wayward spouses! 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel we should put them all on an island and let them kill themselves


Interesting thread you started December of last year - your thread, your quote.


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> Has anyone else noticed how contract breakers (aka 'leavers') always claim to be undergoing some horrible torture by staying married? Common complaints:
> 
> "I'm dying inside."
> "I feel like I can't breathe."
> "...dead marriage."
> 
> And then of course there is the abuse card. It's the trump card and it gets played when all else fails. I'm not referring to legitimate victims of abuse, I'm talking about the whole "he ignored me 17 years ago" type complaints. *I find it sickening that people resort to such transparent BS to justify breaking up families.*
> That is all.


And that one hmm

You started that thread 01-14-2014, 08:06 PM 

SO less than three months later YOU are doing what you condemned

And using all sorts of BS (your words) to justify it
And finagling and fasting and hiding behind your supposed devoutness to justify continuing to lust after another mans wife - to covet and you committed Adultery.

When you are disclosing to your Church men who supposedly will hold you accountable - make sure you tell them everything.


----------



## pidge70

> Zanne has proven time and time again that she will lie in order to get her way. It's entirely reasonable- and advisable- to doubt anything that she says. It's also entirely reasonable to 'villify' her as she is hurting innocent people (including children).


 _Could this possibly apply to your AP?_



> Emphatically disagree. Zanne/*Wilderness* needs to go NC with her lover for a long period of time. I would suggest 5 years as that is how long is typically takes a BS to recover from an affair. If Zanne puts her full effort into her marriage and her husband is on board, her marriage can be saved.


_ Should you not follow this advice as well? Or are you one of those, "Do as I say, not as I do" type of people? 
_



> Zanne is setting a horrible example for her children. She needs to stop her affair, stop her lying, stop her passive aggressive behavior, stop her abuse, and stop her codependence. I do not agree that her husband is guilty of
> most of these things.


_ This could be said about you and your AP.
_



> Zanne can choose to stop her horrible behavior, yet she chooses not to.


 _Same with this. Just because you haven't had sex with your AP again, you still have lust in your heart for another *man's wife*._


----------



## DoF

Unique Username said:


> When you are disclosing to your Church men who supposedly will hold you accountable - make sure you tell them everything.


:iagree:

:rofl:


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> What would obeying look like? NC ever again, as opposed to NC for the time being?


What do the verses I quoted say? Under what circumstances can you have a sexual relationship with her without disobedience to God?

You wrote earlier that this is all harder when you are in the middle of it, and I agree. And it is totally up to you. But if you want to talk about the importance of God, you need to do what is necessary to obey, particularly when you have been so virulent against others. 

You have told your married lover that if she leaves her husband you are interested in a relationship with her. Are you intending to disobey the verses I cites and marry her? Or not marry but bonk her anyway? Or are you claiming you can manage a platonic friendship?


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> What do the verses I quoted say? Under what circumstances can you have a sexual relationship with her without disobedience to God?
> 
> You wrote earlier that this is all harder when you are in the middle of it, and I agree. And it is totally up to you. But if you want to talk about the importance of God, you need to do what is necessary to obey, particularly when you have been so virulent against others.
> 
> You have told your married lover that if she leaves her husband you are interested in a relationship with her. Are you intending to disobey the verses I cites and marry her? Or not marry but bonk her anyway? Or are you claiming you can manage a platonic friendship?


I looked up those verses and I hear you. What do you suggest? I guess my intentions were to wait until the divorce is filed before resuming a sexual relationship with her (while not encouraging her to divorce, which I haven't, btw). But I guess that would be profiting from my sin, which I'm not supposed to do, either. 

She says that she was never married in a church- but that is a loophole I suspect and probably not the right position to take.

I guess I get no credit for not resuming a sexual relationship with her? I get that, too.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> I looked up those verses and I hear you. What do you suggest? I guess my intentions were to wait until the divorce is filed before resuming a sexual relationship with her (while not encouraging her to divorce, which I haven't, btw). But I guess that would be profiting from my sin, which I'm not supposed to do, either.
> 
> She says that she was never married in a church- but that is a loophole I suspect and probably not the right position to take.
> 
> I guess I get no credit for not resuming a sexual relationship with her? I get that, too.


Wilderness, I get it's hard. I have not been exactly where you are but I have faced comparable temptation. So I am going to be very direct.

Answer a simple question. The verses I cited all tell you nor to marry a divorcee. Are you intending to marry her anyway? Or are you intending to sleep with her while not married? (In which case I will share one or two other verses with you, but I bet you already know them).

Quit praying and fasting, because you know the truth...you just don't want to. What options will God bless?

And by the way, I agree with you, her "not married in a church" loophole is nonsense. She was married, she is divorcing. Or is she claiming the entire marriage was a period of unmarried adultery?


----------



## damagedgoods1

Hi Wilderness,

I just wanted to make a book suggestion to you - 
The Lost Love Chronicles: Reunions & Memories of First Love, by Nancy Kalish PhD

It's a book about rekindling romances from long ago.


----------



## theroad

Go NC. She dumped you. Then she cheated with you.

They cheat with you they will cheat on you.

And being she most likely cheated on you with her BH before she dumped you back then.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> What would obeying look like? NC ever again, as opposed to NC for the time being?


Isn't this what you advised me to do? Where is your black/white thinking now? Oh, I think I know where it went....


ETA: I do admire your humble attitude and your openness to admit your problems, both past and present, and willingness to seek help.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> Wilderness, I get it's hard. I have not been exactly where you are but I have faced comparable temptation. So I am going to be very direct.
> 
> Answer a simple question. The verses I cited all tell you nor to marry a divorcee. Are you intending to marry her anyway? Or are you intending to sleep with her while not married? (In which case I will share one or two other verses with you, but I bet you already know them).
> 
> Quit praying and fasting, because you know the truth...you just don't want to. What options will God bless?
> 
> And by the way, I agree with you, her "not married in a church" loophole is nonsense. She was married, she is divorcing. Or is she claiming the entire marriage was a period of unmarried adultery?


It's not that I'm avoiding the question, it's just that I don't want to answer it and be wrong. Would you mind if I PMed you?


----------



## lisab0105

If she cheats with you she will cheat on you. This woman doesn't know love. She is incapable of it. I bet when she told her husband she wanted a divorce, she didn't tell him what she did with you, right? 

Tell that skanks husband what she did, so he can know the truth about the wench. That way he doesn't waste his life pining over someone as cruel as she. And as for you...shame on you Wilderness. I am sorry, but you don't deserve good things right now. You took another mans wife to bed and you want credit for not doing it again?! 

Have you learnt nothing from TAM? You are an affair partner. That is it. Once the thrill is gone, so will she.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> I'm avoiding the question because I don't want to hear the truth about what must be done.


Fixed it for you.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> I looked up those verses and I hear you. What do you suggest? I guess *my intentions were to wait until the divorce is filed before resuming a sexual relationship with her (while not encouraging her to divorce, which I haven't, btw). * But I guess that would be profiting from my sin, which I'm not supposed to do, either.
> 
> She says that she was never married in a church- but that is a loophole I suspect and probably not the right position to take.
> 
> I guess I get no credit for not resuming a sexual relationship with her? I get that, too.


The problem is that you are now sitting in the background and your AP KNOWS that you're waiting for her. You cannot unring that bell. The damage is done. So long as she knows you are ready to step in as her new BF, she will NEVER make an honest attempt to fix her marriage. 

You are being *intentionally dense* about this...


----------



## wilderness

Plan 9 from OS said:


> The problem is that you are now sitting in the background and your AP KNOWS that you're waiting for her. You cannot unring that bell. The damage is done. So long as she knows you are ready to step in as her new BF, she will NEVER make an honest attempt to fix her marriage.
> 
> You are being *intentionally dense* about this...


So I just tell her to go pound sand AND go NC? Like that would even work. As u said you cant unring that bell.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> It's not that I'm avoiding the question, it's just that I don't want to answer it and be wrong. Would you mind if I PMed you?


PM away, Here to help if i can.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> So I just tell her to go pound sand AND go NC? Like that would even work. As u said you cant unring that bell.


Which is the argument for permanent NC.

Twist it any way you like...as long as you claim to be a bible believing Christian, you cannot do what you are doing and expect God to endorse it. There is no future time when the bible lets you have a relationship with her as you want. None.

Are you going to obey, or not? You don't want to answer and be wrong. The verses i cited are not awash with ambiguity.


----------



## Happyfamily

Monkeybranch.


----------



## JCD

wilderness said:


> So I just tell her to go pound sand AND go NC? Like that would even work. As u said you cant unring that bell.


Actually, you can.

If you 'betray her' by outing her and your horrible actions against the family to her husband, to her mother , she will look at you with loathing and contempt. The bell may have rung...but her ears will be ringing so badly she will NEVER pull on your bell rope again.

Which is why you are looking for every rationalization to NOT expose...despite tons of advice (probably some of yours) TO expose to 'end an affair'.

You don't want this to end. You want to purify it somehow.

Look...talk to her husband. Get him to sign up for the Army and see if you can talk him into going to Afghanistan. There is heavy fighting there. So send Uriah out there and when he dies, you'll be in...like...David.

Oh...that didn't work out too well either.

You need to accept this is only goes two ways.

Either you accept that you will taint this relationship by engaging in it.

Or you get rid of her and get back the ability to look in the mirror according to your espoused principles.

Now, unlike Steak or Pizza, there are NO good choices here. 

Sorry.


----------



## wilderness

JCD said:


> Actually, you can.
> 
> If you 'betray her' by outing her and your horrible actions against the family to her husband, to her mother , she will look at you with loathing and contempt. The bell may have rung...but her ears will be ringing so badly she will NEVER pull on your bell rope again.
> 
> Which is why you are looking for every rationalization to NOT expose...despite tons of advice (probably some of yours) TO expose to 'end an affair'.
> 
> You don't want this to end. You want to purify it somehow.
> 
> Look...talk to her husband. Get him to sign up for the Army and see if you can talk him into going to Afghanistan. There is heavy fighting there. So send Uriah out there and when he dies, you'll be in...like...David.
> 
> Oh...that didn't work out too well either.
> 
> You need to accept this is only goes two ways.
> 
> Either you accept that you will taint this relationship by engaging in it.
> 
> Or you get rid of her and get back the ability to look in the mirror according to your espoused principles.
> 
> Now, unlike Steak or Pizza, there are NO good choices here.
> 
> Sorry.


Your plan won't work. First of all, she's already told her mother. Her mother wasn't surprised because this is something she has been talking about for years. Second, I think there is a very good chance she is going to tell her husband, too. Do you honestly think hearing it from me will help their marriage? Wouldn't it be better to just butt out totally and completely and let them sort out what they want to do? Yes, it's what I should have done in the first place. I get that, but I can't go back and erase what I've done.


----------



## Unique Username

Unique Username said:


> Does the married woman you had sex with have children?


So, Why have you not addresses any of MY questions or posts?

Too spot on?


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> So, Why have you not addresses any of MY questions or posts?
> 
> Too spot on?


I am sorry. Yes, she has a child.


----------



## Unique Username

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilderness View Post
Has anyone else noticed how contract breakers (aka 'leavers') always claim to be undergoing some horrible torture by staying married? Common complaints:

"I'm dying inside."
"I feel like I can't breathe."
"...dead marriage."

And then of course there is the abuse card. It's the trump card and it gets played when all else fails. I'm not referring to legitimate victims of abuse, I'm talking about the whole "he ignored me 17 years ago" type complaints. *I find it sickening that people resort to such transparent BS to justify breaking up families.*
That is all.
And that one hmm

You started that thread 01-14-2014, 08:06 PM 

SO less than three months later YOU are doing what you condemned

And using all sorts of BS (your words) to justify it
And finagling and fasting and hiding behind your supposed devoutness to justify continuing to lust after another mans wife - to covet and you committed Adultery.

When you are disclosing to your Church men who supposedly will hold you accountable - make sure you tell them everything.


----------



## Unique Username

So - you are coveting another man's wife, lusting in your heart, committed Adultery AND are homewrecker.

And you still have the stones to try to justify (with BS) your continued pursuit of her.

Sounds like repentance to me.


----------



## Fenris

wilderness said:


> I am sorry. Yes, she has a child.


So not only a husband loses a wife, but a child suddenly gets stuck with part time parents.

Good job, wilderness.


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> So - you are coveting another man's wife, lusting in your heart, committed Adultery AND are homewrecker.
> 
> And you still have the stones to try to justify (with BS) your continued pursuit of her.
> 
> Sounds like repentance to me.


Have you even read what I've written? That I am considering going no contact with her…that I have not continued to have sex with her.

I made a horrible mistake. I cannot undue it, but I am trying to do the right thing right now.


----------



## Unique Username

I think you need to go re read every single hateful and venemous post you ever made about philandering spouses and homewreckers

and insert yourself as the object of your vtriol and venom

and then go back and do it again inserting the married woman you had sex with and lust after and insert her into all of them

THEN think about what might be the best course of action to take -- taking your OWN advice

I think lying is also a bad thing in the bible somewhere as is guilt by omission (in addition to guilt by commission)


----------



## Miss Independent

We should congratulate you for refraining to have sex with a married woman and CONSIDERING going nc? Hmm that's interesting


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> I think you need to go re read every single hateful and venemous post you ever made about philandering spouses and homewreckers
> 
> and insert yourself as the object of your vtriol and venom
> 
> and then go back and do it again inserting the married woman you had sex with and lust after and insert her into all of them
> 
> THEN think about what might be the best course of action to take -- taking your OWN advice
> 
> I think lying is also a bad thing in the bible somewhere as is guilt by omission (in addition to guilt by commission)


I think that it won't be enough for you if I do the right thing now. You want me to pay some sort of price. You want revenge on me. Fair enough, I deserve it. I brought this on myself, so I will accept what you have to say.


----------



## wilderness

spinsterdurga said:


> We should congratulate you for refraining to have sex with a married woman and CONSIDERING going nc? Hmm that's interesting


I don't think congratulations are in order, I didn't mean it that way.


----------



## Miss Independent

wilderness said:


> I think that it won't be enough for you if I do the right thing now. You want me to pay some sort of price. You want revenge on me. Fair enough, I deserve it. I brought this on myself, so I will accept what you have to say.



UU correct me if I'm wrong but I think she (Uu) is trying to help you do the right thing because you are not. Sitting on the side and waiting for her to divorce her husband while being a emotional blanket is not doing the right thing


----------



## Unique Username

yep I read everything you have written

you are now only CONSIDERING no contact

yesterday - you were willing to continue to lust after her and covet her and wait until divorce procedings progress (but there was discussion as to exactly what that meant)

Others might give you some slack.

But, it won't be me. I don't believe you.
I think it is all just smoke and mirrors.

You will do what you want to do..just looking for BS to justify it.

God granted free will

you used yours to actively have sex with a married woman who has a kid

I don't buy the whole temptation malarchy

having sex with a married woman - takes a bit of planning, and specific actions to undress yourselves, and insert your penis into her vagina.
ACTIONS and intent


----------



## happy as a clam

I will admit I haven't read the whole thread.

Ok, you said you had sex with her. But how much more has gone on that we haven't heard yet? 

Have you had sex again?

Are you emailing, calling and texting each other?

Are you sneaking around with her while her husband is at work?

A one-time, effed-up mistake is one thing (bad enough, sorry) but a full-blown continuing affair is entirely another.

Do you have any other details to share with us? That might change our advice.


----------



## Unique Username

Wilderness

you mean absolutely nothing to me

I don't want revenge upon you

I am laying it all out there as you have to others....IN YOUR OWN THREADS and in posting in many other threads....as you would be TO yourself looking in


----------



## Unique Username

clam - better to read the entire thread so you know at least a tiny bit of what you are talking about


and would also be informed if you read his own threads about these same things


----------



## over20

Plan 9 from OS said:


> The problem is that you are now sitting in the background and your AP KNOWS that you're waiting for her.  You cannot unring that bell. The damage is done. So long as she knows you are ready to step in as her new BF, she will NEVER make an honest attempt to fix her marriage.
> 
> You are being *intentionally dense* about this...


What does AP stand for in this comment?


----------



## JCD

Unique Username said:


> I think you need to go re read every single hateful and venemous post you ever made about philandering spouses and homewreckers
> 
> and insert yourself as the object of your vtriol and venom
> 
> and then go back and do it again inserting the married woman you had sex with and lust after and insert her into all of them
> 
> THEN think about what might be the best course of action to take -- taking your OWN advice
> 
> I think lying is also a bad thing in the bible somewhere as is guilt by omission (in addition to guilt by commission)



Excuse me, but it is just as valid to say that it's all fun and games to heap vitriol upon someone else, but when it is suddenly YOUR emotional damage we are discussing, suddenly it's not so much fun.

Some folks LUUUUV to heap hatred upon cheaters here, trying to fight (or feed) their own personal demons.

And then one of them falls. And the Fallen can see exactly how...unfeeling and loathsome such an attitude can be when it is directed at you.

Granted, wilderness is not exactly wowing me with remorse here. His attitude is similar to those people who read the obituaries in NYC to find out when a rent controlled apartment becomes available: The tragedy of these people is (theoretically) sad...but hey, I'd be a fool not to pick up some cheap (used) property!

Wilderness...okay. There is no way you are going to tell him. I get it. I think you are showing a lack of spine here, but it's your life.

And you know you should go NC with her. Whether her marriage is over or not.

So...you know WHAT you need to do to 'be right with God'...and you know what you WANT to do.

These are not compatible goals.

So the discussion here is over. We have laid out what needs to happen. You get to choose. The third option: someone make things so I don't feel guilty while still getting my penis wet, isn't possible unless you lose all sense of remorse on this issue.

Good luck. My badgering you isn't going to bring any additional clarity to you.

Next time you want to get all 'fire and brimstone' on someone for moral failings, maybe you think about what happened when YOU wanted grace.


----------



## pidge70

Unique Username said:


> I think you need to go re read every single hateful and venemous post you ever made about philandering spouses and homewreckers
> 
> and insert yourself as the object of your vtriol and venom
> 
> and then go back and do it again *inserting* the married woman you had sex with and lust after and* insert* her into all of them
> 
> THEN think about what might be the best course of action to take -- taking your OWN advice
> 
> I think lying is also a bad thing in the bible somewhere as is guilt by omission (in addition to guilt by commission)


He's already *inserted* something.


----------



## pidge70

over20 said:


> What does AP stand for in this comment?


AP=Affair partner


----------



## happy as a clam

Ok, I have now read the whole thread. Wilderness, you have ignited a firestorm, mostly because of your harsh judgment of others in many other threads.

I had no idea about all of your own past infidelities. Perhaps a lot of the wrath and anger that you dumped on your ex as well as fellow TAMers was anger AT YOUR OWN TRANSGRESSIONS that you were projecting onto others?

Stop justifying your behavior and making excuses. Fix the problem, you know how. You just don't WANT to fix it. You want what you want.

We don't always get what we want in life.


----------



## over20

pidge70 said:


> AP=Affair partner


Thank you


----------



## Created2Write

Unique Username said:


> BUT
> 
> he is still coveting another man's wife
> 
> and lusting after her
> 
> so, if you continue to do these sins - how are you repentant?


He's not repentant. He thinks the only sin was having sex with her, but what he doesn't realize is that even if he doesn't have sex with her again until she's divorced, he's _still_ sinning because he's sitting and waiting(and HOPING) that she will break up her family for him. That is coveting another man's wife, it _is_ lust, it's also selfishness(a sin). To truly repent, he would need to cut her from his life and never speak to her again, but he doesn't _want_ to do that. He's chosen the easy, sinful path instead.


----------



## wilderness

happy as a clam said:


> I will admit I haven't read the whole thread.
> 
> Ok, you said you had sex with her. But how much more has gone on that we haven't heard yet?
> 
> Have you had sex again?
> 
> Are you emailing, calling and texting each other?
> 
> Are you sneaking around with her while her husband is at work?
> 
> A one-time, effed-up mistake is one thing (bad enough, sorry) but a full-blown continuing affair is entirely another.
> 
> Do you have any other details to share with us? That might change our advice.


No sex again. No sneaking around. No calling, yes texting. She told her husband she wanted a divorce and he left, she was upset. That's what was discussed.


----------



## Miss Independent

Why are you texting her?


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Hi guys. I just wanted to check in and say that I haven't had sex with her again. She has told her husband she wants a divorce. I was considering going NC with her in case by some miracle she reconciles with her husband. We are both very remorseful over what we have done but still love each other. I have been praying a lot over this. I pray God's will be done. I pray tot her husband as well.


People use "love" as a justification for a lot of horrible things, but the truth is you don't really _love_ her. Her want her, desire her, perhaps you were never really over her to begin with. But your love is not the kind of love that you should base a relationship on. The Bible is clear on what love is, and your actions do not line up. Read 1 Corinithians 13, and ask yourself if your actions line up with what it says. 

Moreover, ask yourself why God should approve of your attachment to her? What is there that is _Godly_ between the two of you?


----------



## wilderness

Decorum said:


> For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
> 2 Corinthians 11:2-3
> 
> 
> Wilderness you are right you cannot have both, God will not change but you will never be the same.
> 
> 
> .


Decorum, can you please elaborate on those passages as you understand them? Was Paul talking about a worldly husband, or was he making a reference to believers as the bride of Jesus Christ? This chapter has haunted me my whole life.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> What would obeying look like? NC ever again, as opposed to NC for the time being?


Since you can't be around her without sinning, NC ever again.


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## pidge70

> I suggest you write a NC letter to your OM, beg your husband for forgiveness, and dedicate yourself to your marriage.


_ I suppose you won't tell this to your AP huh?_



> I have news for you...affairs bring out the worst in people.





> Specifically, you are hurting children in the following ways (by no means an exhaustive list):
> 1. By setting a poor example. Teaching children that it's ok to lie, cheat, be selfish, and hurt other people. Teaching children it's ok to mistreat, disrespect, demean, take advantage of, and abuse their spouse. Teaching children that it's ok to not honor one's commitments- or even try to honor them. Teaching children how to be a horrible parent.
> 1. By setting a poor example. Teaching children that it's ok to lie, cheat, be selfish, and hurt other people. Teaching children it's ok to mistreat, disrespect, demean, take advantage of, and abuse their spouse. Teaching children that it's ok to not honor one's commitments- or even try to honor them. Teaching children how to be a horrible parent.
> 2. (your children) By repeatedly trying to destroy their father's life.
> 3. (your children) By repeatedly trying to destroy their family and their sense of stability. You do realize that there are real consequences to your behavior, right? Every holiday and every wedding and every event from now until the future will be a major league hassle. Every big decision or catastrophe in your children's lives will be difficult to make.
> The tension in the house that your family is experiencing as a result of your affairs. The tension between you and your husband that your children get to experience.
> And children innately want their parents to remain married. You are deliberately causing your children pain by continuing this affair. You. That's on you and you alone.


_ Isn't this what your AP is doing?_



> 3. (OM's children) By trying to destroy their family. Straight up home wrecking is what you are engaged in. Every time their parents argue and they don't know why, or every time they get together and their is tension in the air, you have a hand in that.
> 4. (OMs children) By trying to destroy OMs wife.
> 5. (OMs children) By contributing to OM setting a poor example for his children.


 _Just change OM to AP for your specific situation._



> No, the better choice is to discontinue your *adulterous* and *illicit *affair, beg for forgiveness, and work on the marriage. *But you will never see this in your present delusional and borderline psychotic state*.


First part applies to your AP, bolded applies to you.


----------



## SadSamIAm

I want to think that Wilderness is a troll.

Upsets me to think that someone can be so adamant about doing the right thing and about religion when giving advice to others (Zanne, etc.) but totally ignoring everything when he himself is involved.

Either his faith isn't very deep or he never believed what he was spouting off before. Or maybe his is just dishonest. Or he has been playing us for a long time, posting a bunch of self righteous stuff but not believing any of it.

The difference between saying it and doing it is character.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I guess I get no credit for not resuming a sexual relationship with her? I get that, too.


From God's perspective? No, you don't. I don't say that to be harsh, just honest. You have every intention of boning her once she's divorced, which really is no different than boning her now in God's eyes. She's leaving her husband for her, which is not a Godly reason to divorce, therefor any relationship you have with her in future(according to the Bible) _will_ be sinful. 

I ask again, what is there _Godly_ about your connection to this woman? Why should God condone your attachment?


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> People use "love" as a justification for a lot of horrible things, but the truth is you don't really _love_ her. Her want her, desire her, perhaps you were never really over her to begin with. But your love is not the kind of love that you should base a relationship on. The Bible is clear on what love is, and your actions do not line up. Read 1 Corinithians 13, and ask yourself if your actions line up with what it says.
> 
> Moreover, ask yourself why God should approve of your attachment to her? What is there that is _Godly_ between the two of you?


I should not be lusting after her, of that I agree 1000%, that's sinful.
What happened that was Godly between us was that we forgave each other for some very deep and very painful wounds. That gave me no right to have sex with her, yes I understand that. Perhaps God's plan was the forgiveness part, not the sex part. Maybe by some miracle her marriage will recover, I don't know much these days. I'm certainly not the right person to be making judgments.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> From God's perspective? No, you don't. I don't say that to be harsh, just honest. You have every intention of boning her once she's divorced, which really is no different than boning her now in God's eyes. *She's leaving her husband for her, which is not a Godly reason to divorce, therefor any relationship you have with her in future(according to the Bible) will be sinful. *
> 
> I ask again, what is there _Godly_ about your connection to this woman? Why should God condone your attachment?


The bolded is something I don't agree with. I don't think her marriage was torn apart by me. I think she is getting divorced whether I'm in the picture or not. Does that change things?


----------



## SadSamIAm

Created2Write said:


> From God's perspective? No, you don't. I don't say that to be harsh, just honest. You have every intention of boning her once she's divorced, which really is no different than boning her now in God's eyes. She's leaving her husband for her, which is not a Godly reason to divorce, therefor any relationship you have with her in future(according to the Bible) _will_ be sinful.
> 
> I ask again, what is there _Godly_ about your connection to this woman? Why should God condone your attachment?


He is not waiting for her to be divorced. He is only waiting for the divorce process to start.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Your plan won't work. First of all, she's already told her mother. Her mother wasn't surprised because this is something she has been talking about for years. Second, I think there is a very good chance she is going to tell her husband, too. Do you honestly think hearing it from me will help their marriage? Wouldn't it be better to just butt out totally and completely and let them sort out what they want to do? Yes, it's what I should have done in the first place. I get that, but I can't go back and erase what I've done.


Yes you can. It's called integrity. Honesty. Repentance. Bringing what was once in the dark out into the light. It's what God calls us to do when we have wronged someone, to go to them and admit how we've wronged them, and ask for their forgiveness. 

Then cut the woman from your life forever, and move on. You can talk about being all-in with God, but our actions are what _prove_ our faith. The Bible says that we will know fellow Christians by their fruit. If you _say_ you're all-in with Christ and want to obey Him, but then act in direct disobedience to His commandments, are you _really_ following him?


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## wilderness

spinsterdurga said:


> Why are you texting her?


She texted me to tell me her husband left.


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## pidge70

wilderness said:


> Your plan won't work. First of all, she's already told her mother. Her mother wasn't surprised because this is something she has been talking about for years. Second, I think there is a very good chance she is going to tell her husband, too. Do you honestly think hearing it from me will help their marriage? Wouldn't it be better to just butt out totally and completely and let them sort out what they want to do? Yes, it's what I should have done in the first place. I get that, but I can't go back and erase what I've done.


How do you know she told her mother? Oh right, she doesn't lie. At least not to you. Did she tell her BH she was meeting up with you? 

I find it hilarious that you are now a rationalizing cheater. Numerous one night stands during your marriage that your W supposedly knew about, don't count. Pretty sure that's not how GOD sees it.


----------



## LifeIsAJourney

All of this reminds me of when Woody Allen was caught in an affair with his stepdaughter and he was quoted as saying "the heart wants, what the heart wants." Similar rationalization here.

This has to be one of the most fascinating threads I have read on TAM since I joined. My only regret is not making popcorn before sitting down at my computer. And as an added bonus I have learned some new vocabulary words too! Pastafarianism and monkeybranch. Priceless!


----------



## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> How do you know she told her mother? Oh right, she doesn't lie. At least not to you. Did she tell her BH she was meeting up with you?
> 
> I find it hilarious that you are now a rationalizing cheater. Numerous one night stands during your marriage that your W supposedly knew about, don't count. Pretty sure that's not how GOD sees it.


What possible benefit would she have had to lie to me about this? She volunteered the info, it wasn't discussed previously. There is not a snake under every rock.


----------



## JCD

wilderness said:


> Your plan won't work. First of all, she's already told her mother. Her mother wasn't surprised because this is something she has been talking about for years. Second, *I think there is a very good chance she is going to tell her husband, too. Do you honestly think hearing it from me will help their marriage?* Wouldn't it be better to just butt out totally and completely and let them sort out what they want to do? Yes, it's what I should have done in the first place. I get that, but I can't go back and erase what I've done.


This is called 'avoiding personal responsibility' for those watching in our studio audience.


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## pidge70

wilderness said:


> What possible benefit would she have had to lie to me about this? She volunteered the info, it wasn't discussed previously. There is not a snake under every rock.


Says a lot that her mother wasn't surprised her daughter cheated and apparently doesn't have a problem with it.


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## Miss Independent

wilderness said:


> She texted me to tell me her husband left.



You texted back?


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## pidge70

Make sure you advise her to leave her marriage with nothing and let her H have sole custody. That's what you have told numerous other WWs.


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## karole

What you are doing Wilderness is just disgusting. I think I saw you ask Zanne once how she could sleep at night - you should ask yourself that question.


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## wilderness

karole said:


> What you are doing Wilderness is just disgusting. I think I saw you ask Zanne once how she could sleep at night - you should ask yourself that question.


I'm not sleeping right now.


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## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> The bolded is something I don't agree with. I don't think her marriage was torn apart by me. I think she is getting divorced whether I'm in the picture or not. Does that change things?


I think it is pretty obvious that she is getting the divorce because of you. Supposedly her marriage hasn't been good for a long time. 

Pretty big coincidence that she suddenly got the cajones to divorce after you guys talked and fuvked. 

If it had nothing to do with you it would have happened like:

1) She tells her husband she isn't happy.
2) They try counseling or not 
3) They separate /file for divorce
4) She calls you

Instead it was like:

1) She calls you
2) She fuvks you
3) She tells him she wants a divorce

See the difference?????


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I should not be lusting after her, of that I agree 1000%, that's sinful.
> What happened that was Godly between us was that we forgave each other for some very deep and very painful wounds. That gave me no right to have sex with her, yes I understand that. Perhaps God's plan was the forgiveness part, not the sex part. Maybe by some miracle her marriage will recover, I don't know much these days. I'm certainly not the right person to be making judgments.


It's good that you forgave each other, but that *is not enough* to base a relationship of any kind on. And the forgiveness for the previous wrongdoings was tainted by current wrongdoings. 

You _can_ make this right, which is the good news. God can, and will, forgive you, but you have to do the right thing. You have to admit to her husband what you've done(which _is_ Biblical), and you have to go NC with this woman for ever. If she and her husband are to have any chance of reconciliation, you *absolutely CAN NOT* be waiting around for her. She has to know that you are gone. Because if you stay, even just as a friend, you will not only be responsible for her sins, you will also be responsible for helping to facilitate hers.


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## JCD

wilderness said:


> I'm not sleeping right now.


You have the answer to that.

You choose not to do it.

That is not our faults.


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## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> The bolded is something I don't agree with. I don't think her marriage was torn apart by me. I think she is getting divorced whether I'm in the picture or not. Does that change things?


Even if her marriage was already falling apart, even if she would have divorced her husband whether you were there or not, the fact is that you are there now, waiting for the divorce so you can snatch her up. God will never bless a relationship between the two of you because it is founded on sin, and nothing but sin.


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## wilderness

SadSamIAm said:


> I think it is pretty obvious that she is getting the divorce because of you. Supposedly her marriage hasn't been good for a long time.
> 
> Pretty big coincidence that she suddenly got the cajones to divorce after you guys talked and fuvked.
> 
> If it had nothing to do with you it would have happened like:
> 
> 1) She tells her husband she isn't happy.
> 2) They try counseling or not
> 3) They separate /file for divorce
> 4) She calls you
> 
> Instead it was like:
> 
> 1) She calls you
> 2) She fuvks you
> 3) She tells him she wants a divorce
> 
> See the difference?????


Yes, I do. Is it totally naive to think that the cause and effect is not what you are implying, just that it appears that way?


----------



## Unique Username

SadSamIAm said:


> I want to think that Wilderness is a troll.
> 
> Upsets me to think that someone can be so adamant about doing the right thing and about religion when giving advice to others (Zanne, etc.) but totally ignoring everything when he himself is involved.
> 
> Either his faith isn't very deep or he never believed what he was spouting off before. Or maybe his is just dishonest. Or he has been playing us for a long time, posting a bunch of self righteous stuff but not believing any of it.
> 
> The difference between saying it and doing it is character.


Made me think of this


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## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> Even if her marriage was already falling apart, even if she would have divorced her husband whether you were there or not, the fact is that you are there now, waiting for the divorce so you can snatch her up. God will never bless a relationship between the two of you because *it is founded on sin, and nothing but sin*.


That's not true though. She's tried to talk to me about this for years now. She inquired of me to my friends. It wasn't that the sex we had recently was the foundation of the relationship, it was the original relationship we had which was founded upon love.

All that does not mean that you are not absolutely correct in everything else you've written to me. I thank you for style of communication, which seems to be penetrating my thick skull.


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## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Yes, I do. Is it totally naive to think that the cause and effect is not what you are implying, just that it appears that way?


It's absolutely naive. You _are_ deluding yourself.


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## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> That's not true though. She's tried to talk to me about this for years now. She inquired of me to my friends.


All this tells me is that she would have cheated on her husband a long time ago. 



> It wasn't that the sex we had recently was the foundation of the relationship, it was the original relationship we had which was founded upon love.


Your _former_ relationship is irrelevant to the present. You both made your choices in life. You can't go back to what you had before just because you _used_ to be in love. What you have now _is not_ founded on the kind of love that God expects to be shown by His children. Even if you both really do still love each other like before(and I don't believe that she loves you at all), it won't change a thing about your current situation.

Besides, do you really think God cares if you love this woman? Do you think that will be a sufficient excuse as to why you're living in sin with her after the divorce? 



> All that does not mean that you are not absolutely correct in everything else you've written to me. I thank you for style of communication, which seems to be penetrating my thick skull.


I'm a believing Christian to, and I understand(unlike a lot of people in this world) that being a Christian doesn't mean we will be perfect or sinless. However, there's a difference between being a sinner and truly repenting of those sins, and trying to minimize ones sinful behaviors. I think a lot of people in this thread believe that you're insincere in your desire for repentance. Keep in mind, that God doesn't forgive us for sins that we continue to commit. You can't ask forgiveness for your actions with her, and then go back to her after the divorce and expect to be forgiven.


----------



## ReformedHubby

SadSamIAm said:


> olved.
> Either his faith isn't very deep or he never believed what he was spouting off before. Or maybe his is just dishonest. Or he has been playing us for a long time, posting a bunch of self righteous stuff but not believing any of it.
> 
> The difference between saying it and doing it is character.


Or...he could just be a horrible person. No reason to over analyze it. Lots of posters thought so before, they still think so now but for different reasons. I'll at least give him credit for being consistent when it comes to that.


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## JCD

If it wasn't hard to do, anyone would have character.

Best of luck.


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## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> All this tells me is that she would have cheated on her husband a long time ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Your _former_ relationship is irrelevant to the present. You both made your choices in life. You can't go back to what you had before just because you _used_ to be in love. What you have now _is not_ founded on the kind of love that God expects to be shown by His children. Even if you both really do still love each other like before(and I don't believe that she loves you at all), it won't change a thing about your current situation.
> 
> Besides, do you really think God cares if you love this woman? Do you think that will be a sufficient excuse as to why you're living in sin with her after the divorce?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a believing Christian to, and I understand(unlike a lot of people in this world) that being a Christian doesn't mean we will be perfect or sinless. However, there's a difference between being a sinner and truly repenting of those sins, and trying to minimize ones sinful behaviors. I think a lot of people in this thread believe that you're insincere in your desire for repentance. Keep in mind, that God doesn't forgive us for sins that we continue to commit. You can't ask forgiveness for your actions with her, and then go back to her after the divorce and expect to be forgiven.


I'm not insincere, it's more like 'foggy'. You make a mistake like this, it clouds your judgment. It becomes very difficult to discern what is the right and the wrong thing. That's why I believe prayer and fasting will help.
Thank you for your help.


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> That's not true though. She's tried to talk to me about this for years now. She inquired of me to my friends. It wasn't that the sex we had recently was the foundation of the relationship, it was the original relationship we had which was founded upon love.
> 
> All that does not mean that you are not absolutely correct in everything else you've written to me. I thank you for style of communication, which seems to be penetrating my thick skull.


This is all proof that it is you that is destroying her marriage. She has proven that she would not be divorcing if it wasn't for you. She has lived like this 'for years now'.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I'm not insincere, it's more like 'foggy'. You make a mistake like this, it clouds your judgment. It becomes very difficult to discern what is the right and the wrong thing. That's why I believe prayer and fasting will help.
> Thank you for your help.


_I_ don't think you're insincere. I don't think you really see things as they truly are yet, but I do believe that you're trying. And while I believe in prayer and fasting in some cases, I don't think that's what you currently need. Especially if you're still in contact with this woman. No amount of prayer and fasting will help you if you still have the root of your temptation actively in your life. If you're going to pray and fast and seek accountability, cut all ties from this woman. No talking, no texting, no email, no letters, no online chat, no FB, *nothing*. Block her on FB and everywhere else so you can't see any messages from her, change your phone number so you can't see her text messages. Otherwise your attempts at fasting will be entirely for appearances, and not an actual attempt to hear from God.


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> I'm not insincere, it's more like 'foggy'. You make a mistake like this, it clouds your judgment. It becomes very difficult to discern what is the right and the wrong thing. That's why I believe prayer and fasting will help.
> Thank you for your help.


You are being insincere because you know what is right and wrong. 

You have told many people what is right. Many people have posted your quotes proving that you know what is the right thing to do. This is why it is so clear that you are not being sincere. 

Either be a christian and do the right thing or admit that you are not christian at all and continue on your path.


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## Created2Write

Also, to elaborate on my previous post, whenever I've been faced with an intense moral decision, and I'm not sure what's right or wrong, I always ask myself, "Which of these choices would be the hardest for me?" Every single time, the hardest decision has been the _right_ one. 

You believe in the devil, so you believe that he's the ultimate deceiver. You're at a very serious crossroad in your life, where you have to decide between serving your own desires, or obeying God. The devil will do what he can to distract you, and keep you from making the right choice, and he absolutely will use this woman to distract you. That's why I strongly encourage you to cut her from your life right now. Because this isn't just about your life, and your sin, it's about hers as well. If she is going to have chance to repent of her own actions, you can not be there. Not even as a platonic friend.


----------



## Created2Write

SadSamIAm said:


> You are being insincere because you know what is right and wrong.
> 
> You have told many people what is right. Many people have posted your quotes proving that you know what is the right thing to do. This is why it is so clear that you are not being sincere.
> 
> Either be a christian and do the right thing or admit that you are not christian at all and continue on your path.


It's easy to judge another's sinful actions, and only when we make the same mistakes do we see how complicated they are. Right now he is facing this exact choice: follow the law of God, or follow the law of his own selfish desires. He can't have both. His choice will determine how sincere he is about his faith.


----------



## Zanne

LifeIsAJourney said:


> All of this reminds me of when Woody Allen was caught in an affair with his stepdaughter and he was quoted as saying "the heart wants, what the heart wants." Similar rationalization here.


Love this 

Why doesn't God want what our heart wants?

Wilderness, you said your ex "seems" to have a softer heart for God now and that you can only hope that she will follow your lead. You also said the relationship ended badly and for many years you held extreme resentment toward her (not hard to imagine). So, now that she someone how softened YOUR heart to the point you are no longer the Wilderness we recognize, but are acting like a fool in love...do you see yourself as a KISA? The fact that you already had a relationship with her and expected to marry her... IDK, it feels like you think you had first dibs and you think you can pick up where you left off. Surely God would understand, right? How do you feel about that?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

'The issues of adultery, mental illness and religion do not exclude each other'.

Did OP have a psychological check?


----------



## Created2Write

I definitely think the OP should get into some counseling, _Christian_ counseling. For whatever reason he has a very unhealthy attachment to this woman and he needs to cut all ties with her for good to be a mentally and spiritually healthy individual.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> No sex again. No sneaking around. No calling, yes texting. She told her husband she wanted a divorce and he left, she was upset. That's what was discussed.


This is called an emotional affair. She shouldn't be turning to you for support. She should be turning to her family, like her mother, or some close female friends. Not you.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

wilderness said:


> Decorum, can you please elaborate on those passages as you understand them? Was Paul talking about a worldly husband, or was he making a reference to believers as the bride of Jesus Christ? This chapter has haunted me my whole life.


It's about the body of Christ and how the believers are supposed to act. This part of 2Corinthians is much like the book of Hosea where the prophet by the same name took Gomer to be his wife - a serial cheater. Throughout this OT book, Hosea continually forgave a harlot wife - much like Christ forgives mankind for their sins. Before you go there, recall that you can't have true repentance unless you repent and make what you put wrong right to the best of your abilities. This is why people tell you if you want to be right with God, your GF goes away forever.


----------



## Unique Username




----------



## Created2Write

Plan 9 from OS said:


> It's about the body of Christ and how the believers are supposed to act. This part of 2Corinthians is much like the book of Hosea where the prophet by the same name took Gomer to be his wife - a serial cheater. Throughout this OT book, Hosea continually forgave a harlot wife - much like Christ forgives mankind for their sins. Before you go there, recall that you can't have true repentance unless you repent and make what you put wrong right to the best of your abilities. This is why people tell you if you want to be right with God, your GF goes away forever.


Exactly. It's not repentance if you only change half of a sin. Going NC with her right now is fixing only half of the issue, and my worry us that that is the only half he cares about.


----------



## Unique Username




----------



## Happyfamily

wilderness said:


> She's tried to talk to me about this for years now.


Really? But she was in a coma or held by terrorists?


----------



## Created2Write

Unique Username said:


>


The key to that phrase is "turn from their wicked ways". Too many people focus on the humble themselves and pray, but leave out the turning from wicked ways.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

wilderness said:


> I looked up those verses and I hear you. What do you suggest? I guess my intentions were to wait until the divorce is filed before resuming a sexual relationship with her (while not encouraging her to divorce, which I haven't, btw). But I guess that would be profiting from my sin, which I'm not supposed to do, either.
> 
> She says that she was never married in a church- but that is a loophole I suspect and probably not the right position to take.
> 
> I guess I get no credit for not resuming a sexual relationship with her? I get that, too.


Why don't you wait for her divorce to be final, start courting her, make sure she's truly "the one", get married...THEN resume having sex.

Isn't it sinful to have sex outside of marriage? I know that's an "archaic" principle of the bible, but I can't stand christians who pick and choose what parts of the bible they are going to follow.

What level of "sin" are you allowed to live in without issue? I mean, isn't being a willful sinner kind of like being pregnant....either you are or you aren't. There's no...sinner-lite or kinda-pregnant. 

If you're going to spout off about how strong your faith is, and how much of a christian you are...LIVE IT!!!

Sorry....rant off.


----------



## Created2Write

Even if he waited for her divorce, their marriage would not be allowed under Biblical law. So, it would still be sign.


----------



## doubletrouble

Wilderness -- Years ago I thought I was in love with an amazing woman. She turned every lock in my heart. Oh wow, what a woman she was! 

She left me for a married guy. I guess she wasn't the woman I thought she was. 

Thing is, you're in a real similar-looking boat. The Bible aside, just from a relationship point of view, this woman sees you as a lifeboat. Not an ocean liner or island she can live on the rest of her life. 

I met that woman a few years ago, after not having seen nor heard from her in years. And when I looked at her, there was nothing in my heart for her. A little pity, maybe, and a few lustful thoughts of revenge sex (which I didn't act upon), but there was nothing in my heart for her. 

So you can think you're really in love, but you don't really know what her motivations are. Or even who else she may have in tow. 

Don't let the wreckage of her life float into your path. 

And study your scriptures more closely. It's not all that confusing if you stop trying to rationalize things and simply _believe._

This is a test. Please pass it so you don't have to repeat it. I speak from experience.


----------



## doubletrouble

Created2Write said:


> Even if he waited for her divorce, their marriage would not be allowed under Biblical law. So, it would still be sign.


Yeah, her husband can get a Biblical divorce because of her adultery, but she, as the adulterer, slides into a different cateogry. She's tainted goods now.


----------



## JCD

See_Listen_Love said:


> 'The issues of adultery, mental illness and religion do not exclude each other'.
> 
> Did OP have a psychological check?


Your insinuation is not helpful. Al Gore lives in a palace and is quite the global warming hypocrite. Has he been checked?

So instead of easy cracks against a pet peeve, how about staying focused?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

Created2Write said:


> The key to that phrase is "turn from their wicked ways". Too many people focus on the humble themselves and pray, but leave out the turning from wicked ways.


Maybe they humble themselves by admitting that they lack the courage to do what is right?

Wilderness, I don't understand something... how can you read and understand these verses, but not turn from temptation when it was presented to you? And now you have people saying you were never a Christian (or not Christian enough??) because of it. How does that work?

I agree, this may be a test. But then again, I don't believe God tests us with temptation (James 1:13).

I will admit that I'm still bothered by your abrupt change, but I'll leave it at that.

When you were a "bad boy" and then you came to know Jesus Christ, you became a new person. Your testimony is powerful. But maybe now you need to grow more in your faith. Think on it.


----------



## doubletrouble

Zanne said:


> I agree, this may be a test. But then again, I don't believe God tests us with temptation (James 1:13).


It's not a temptation from God. But it is a test. God watches. And we reap what we sow.


----------



## Created2Write

Zanne said:


> Maybe they humble themselves by admitting that they lack the courage to do what is right?
> 
> Wilderness, I don't understand something... how can you read and understand these verses, but not turn from temptation when it was presented to you? And now you have people saying you were never a Christian (or not Christian enough??) because of it. How does that work?


Just because we believe in the Bible doesn't mean that we aren't, also, human. If resisting temptation were easy, Christ would never have had to die and we'd still be in the Garden of Eden. Wilderness has admitted that his actions were wrong. What's important _now_ is that he make the right choice, and that may take time for him to do. You and I can see what the right choice is, but he's still in temptation. Selfishness is _very_ strong. It's difficult to fight. 



> I agree, this may be a test. But then again, I don't believe God tests us with temptation (James 1:13).


God _allows_ us to be tempted. 1 Corinthians 10:13 But He never gives us more temptation than we can handle, which is why using temptation as an excuse is considered a cop out, and giving in to temptation is considered sin. Wilderness can't take back what he's done, but he _can_ right this wrong. I'm praying that he does the right thing. 



> I will admit that I'm still bothered by your abrupt change, but I'll leave it at that.
> 
> When you were a "bad boy" and then you came to know Jesus Christ, you became a new person. Your testimony is powerful. But maybe now you need to grow more in your faith. Think on it.


We all need to grow more in our faith. None of us is exempt from that.


----------



## Blondilocks

JCD said:


> Your insinuation is not helpful. *Al Gore* lives in a palace and is quite the global warming hypocrite. Has he been checked?
> 
> So instead of easy cracks against a pet peeve, how about *staying focused?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pardon my ignorance, but how did Al Gore get dragged into this mess? God knows Gore has a lot of 'splainin to do, but unless the op's old new love is doing him too he gets a break on this one.

Wilderness, you truly are wandering aren't you? From a misogynistic arse to a love-sick puppy. Maybe all you really needed was to get laid.


----------



## SadSamIAm

So is the sex back on?

She did tell her husband that she wants a divorce. He left, so maybe you can consider them separated.

Seems to meet your criteria that you were going to wait to fuvk her again "until the process of divorce moves forward".


----------



## wilderness

SadSamIAm said:


> So is the sex back on?
> 
> She did tell her husband that she wants a divorce. He left, so maybe you can consider them separated.
> 
> Seems to meet your criteria that you were going to wait to fuvk her again "until the process of divorce moves forward".


No, it's not back on.


----------



## Created2Write

Have you gone NC yet?


----------



## Zanne

Created2Write said:


> Just because we believe in the Bible doesn't mean that we aren't, also, human. If resisting temptation were easy, Christ would never have had to die and we'd still be in the Garden of Eden. Wilderness has admitted that his actions were wrong. What's important _now_ is that he make the right choice, and that may take time for him to do. You and I can see what the right choice is, but he's still in temptation. Selfishness is _very_ strong. It's difficult to fight.


Exactly 

C2W, you are very wise for your age!



Created2Write said:


> God _allows_ us to be tempted. 1 Corinthians 10:13 But He never gives us more temptation than we can handle, which is why using temptation as an excuse is considered a cop out, and giving in to temptation is considered sin. Wilderness can't take back what he's done, but he _can_ right this wrong. I'm praying that he does the right thing.
> 
> 
> 
> We all need to grow more in our faith. None of us is exempt from that.


My point about growing in faith is that this whole mess may be part of Wilderness' journey.


----------



## Created2Write

Zanne said:


> Exactly
> 
> C2W, you are very wise for your age!
> 
> 
> My point about growing in faith is that this whole mess may be part of Wilderness' journey.


Thanks.  

And I absolutely agree that wilderness is on a journey. A very serious one that will change his life forever, regardless of what choice he makes.


----------



## Created2Write

Created2Write said:


> Have you gone NC yet?


Wilderness, have you gone NC yet? If not, how much contact have you had with her? And what kind of contact? Email? Phone call? Texting?


----------



## happy as a clam

Blondilocks said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but how did Al Gore get dragged into this mess? God knows Gore has a lot of 'splainin to do, but unless the op's old new love is doing him too he gets a break on this one.


Ba ha ha!!! This is rich! Love it... :rofl: :lol:


----------



## rrrbbbttt

Wilderness you speak a lot about your faith, my question is what penance do you plan to do for having sex with another man's wife and what restitution are you going to do for the husband of the wife you had sex with?


----------



## techmom

Where the heck is Blonde when you need her? 

Seriously though, the best advice is coming from C2W, by far. I'm just watching and waiting. How can you fall into the mindset of a cheater Wilderness? How does that happen after all of your fire and brimstone posts on the boards regarding wayward wives? Do you feel the same hostility towards your lover? How do you think her husband feels right now, as he has left his home because she stated that she does not love him anymore? How are his wheels spinning trying to find out the reason for the loss of the love in their relationship? How do you feel about keeping him in the dark about what happened? He is in a very dark, lonesome place right now, and you caused it or at least contributed to it. How does the child feel, not having the dad he or she loves at home? You are a part of this family's destruction.

No amount of praying and fasting will help that husband and child out of the hell you helped create. You are this woman's exit strategy, her excuse to selfishly destroy her family and serve her own needs. And you support this, after all of your harsh and cruel posts to women who did the same thing. 

God have mercy on your soul for the pain you inflicted on other posters and the pain you are inflicting on this innocent child caught up in this.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

jld said:


> Oh my gosh, ebp. Was that before he was with you? I hope so.


Yes, but found out when we were dating that he still spoke to her on occasion. I asked him why, because he said it was truly over, and he said it was because he didn't want to hurt her feelings. Still can't make heads or tails of that one.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

ReformedHubby said:


> Best troll post ever, my hats off to you Wilderness.


If this really is a troll post, he sure got a lot of us!!


----------



## Zanne

techmom said:


> No amount of praying and fasting will help that husband and child out of the hell you helped create. You are this woman's exit strategy, her excuse to selfishly destroy her family and serve her own needs. And you support this, after all of your harsh and cruel posts to women who did the same thing.


I agree, where is Blonde? I would love to read her take on this!

I also agreed with the rest of what you wrote, except the above. We can't say for sure that he is her exit strategy. She was already planning to divorce. It is clearly bad timing. At least that's how I see it.


----------



## Wazza

Zanne said:


> I agree, where is Blonde? I would love to read her take on this!
> 
> I also agreed with the rest of what you wrote, except the above. We can't say for sure that he is her exit strategy. She was already planning to divorce. It is clearly bad timing. At least that's how I see it.


Was she?

I've seriously contemplated divorce more than once. I looked over the edge and decided not to jump. But it could have gone the other way more than once. So close. 

Your story could be the same. You were unhappy in your marriage, but it seemed to me you were fighting to recover it (albeit struggling) until you met your OM. Wouldn't you say that made a difference to your thinking?

I can believe that the temptation of Wilderness might have tipped her over the edge. How does one know?


----------



## Zanne

Wazza said:


> Was she?
> 
> I've seriously contemplated divorce more than once. I looked over the edge and decided not to jump. But it could have gone the other way more than once. So close.
> 
> Your story could be the same. You were unhappy in your marriage, but it seemed to me you were fighting to recover it (albeit struggling) until you met your OM. Wouldn't you say that made a difference to your thinking?
> 
> I can believe that the temptation of Wilderness might have tipped her over the edge. How does one know?


How does one know? Ummm... because we believe what Wilderness told us. And we can only assume she was telling him the truth as well.


----------



## pidge70

Yeah, cause cheaters never lie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

pidge70 said:


> Yeah, cause cheaters never lie.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anybody is capable of lying. But she had no reason to lie to him at the time she did and why would he lie to us? We would never get anywhere here if we expected everyone was lying. We can only assume what we read is factual.


----------



## pidge70

You know what happens when you assume right?

Why wouldn't either one of them lie?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

Well maybe I am less jaded than some and more open minded and trusting than others.

He said her divorce was discussed before they hooked up and he also said she was never one to lie. What purpose would it serve for Wilderness to lie to us?


----------



## SadSamIAm

Zanne said:


> Anybody is capable of lying. But she had no reason to lie to him at the time she did and why would he lie to us? We would never get anywhere here if we expected everyone was lying. We can only assume what we read is factual.


She had a reason to lie to him. She lied to get him to believe that he isn't harming the marriage. That she isn't committed to her husband and so it is fine for them to have sex.

How can you say she had no reason to lie?


----------



## Wazza

Zanne said:


> Well maybe I am less jaded than some and more open minded and trusting than others.
> 
> He said her divorce was discussed before they hooked up and he also said she was never one to lie. What purpose would it serve for Wilderness to lie to us?


My point wasn't about lying. It was about the process of deciding to divorce. Knowing there is someone else there and available could be a factor in the decision. I think it is likely that Wilderness is a factor in her decision to divorce. 

I also think that the emotional relationship is a factor. The damage to the marriage can happen way before the physical occurs.


----------



## Zanne

SadSamIAm said:


> She had a reason to lie to him. She lied to get him to believe that he isn't harming the marriage. That she isn't committed to her husband and so it is fine for them to have sex.
> 
> How can you say she had no reason to lie?





Wazza said:


> My point wasn't about lying. It was about the process of deciding to divorce. Knowing there is someone else there and available could be a factor in the decision. I think it is likely that Wilderness is a factor in her decision to divorce.
> 
> I also think that the emotional relationship is a factor. The damage to the marriage can happen way before the physical occurs.


Well, one thing that is missing from the story is a timeline. That would be helpful to determine which came first... Wilderness in the picture or her desire to divorce. It is a little fuzzy right now, unless I have missed something.

Otherwise, as it stands, he has said that she was ready to divorce before they reconnected. We could debate what that means as well. Did he push her over the edge, etc.?

In my case, any romantic feelings for my husband were long gone before I met OM and I was exploring the implications of divorce as a Christian. That also doesn't seem to be the case here. 

Wazza, the only thing we might consider is the fact that she waited to tell her husband until now. That is indeed interesting timing.


----------



## Maricha75

Zanne said:


> Well, one thing that is missing from the story is a timeline. That would be helpful to determine which came first... Wilderness in the picture or her desire to divorce. It is a little fuzzy right now, unless I have missed something.
> 
> Otherwise, as it stands, he has said that she was ready to divorce before they reconnected. We could debate what that means as well. Did he push her over the edge, etc.?
> 
> In my case, any romantic feelings for my husband were long gone before I met OM and I was exploring the implications of divorce as a Christian. That also doesn't seem to be the case here.
> 
> Wazza, the only thing we might consider is the fact that she waited to tell her husband until now. That is indeed interesting timing.


I haven't waded through all of the pages, but this particular post left a bad taste in my mouth. Zanne, the timeline makes no difference at all. Whether she expressed a DESIRE to divorce or not, she is still married. She is still LIVING with her husband, as his wife. As long as they are still married, it was wrong, no matter what spin anyone tries to put on it. Yes, Wilderness professes to be a Christian. Yes, he is human, thus is able to be tempted. But, as a Christian, he (as well as you and I) knows that there is no temptation too great that God cannot help him (us) through. But whether the woman intended to divorce anyway or not is irrelevant. She was (or still is?) living with her husband, as his wife, and cheated on him.


----------



## Zanne

Maricha75 said:


> I haven't waded through all of the pages, but this particular post left a bad taste in my mouth. Zanne, the timeline makes no difference at all. Whether she expressed a DESIRE to divorce or not, she is still married. She is still LIVING with her husband, as his wife. As long as they are still married, it was wrong, no matter what spin anyone tries to put on it. Yes, Wilderness professes to be a Christian. Yes, he is human, thus is able to be tempted. But, as a Christian, he (as well as you and I) knows that there is no temptation too great that God cannot help him (us) through. But whether the woman intended to divorce anyway or not is irrelevant. She was (or still is?) living with her husband, as his wife, and cheated on him.


Maricha, respectfully, I was not trying to justify the actions of either party here. I was commenting on speculation that this was an exit affair on her part and also whether Wilderness influenced her decision to divorce. I don't believe he did, EXCEPT his presence may have given her the confidence to follow through. He is, afterall, counseling her through this difficult time.


----------



## Miss Independent

Zanne;. He is said:


> With all due respect Zanne, are you projecting? He had sex with her, showed her that the grass was greener, claimed to be in love with her. Based on all of this how is he counseling her? If she needs a counselor why doesn't she find a certified and not her ex/AP


----------



## pidge70

I think it is too funny that wilderness had the audacity to call Zanne out for her* numerous* affairs when he in fact had multiple ONS during his marriage. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. 

I do find it interesting that the cheating Christian brethren have apparently resolved their differences. How very Christian-like.


----------



## Zanne

spinsterdurga said:


> With all due respect Zanne, are you projecting? He had sex with her, showed her that the grass was greener, claimed to be in lie with her. Based on all of this how is he counseling her? If she needs a counselor why doesn't she find a certified and not her ex/AP


I should have added one of those sarcastic smilies after that statement. That was my intent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

pidge70 said:


> I think it is too funny that wilderness had the audacity to call Zanne out for her* numerous* affairs when he in fact had multiple ONS during his marriage. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
> 
> I do find it interesting that the cheating Christian brethren have apparently resolved their differences. How very Christian-like.


I told him that I forgive him and I do. I try not to hold grudges. It's unhealthy.


----------



## pidge70

Zanne said:


> I told him that I forgive him and I do. I try not to hold grudges. It's unhealthy.


What about your H? Holding on to quite a few grudges there.


----------



## Zanne

pidge70 said:


> What about your H? Holding on to quite a few grudges there.


Apples to oranges. I have more history with H and I do not know Wilderness IRL. Also, I said that I "try" not to hold grudges. I'm a work in progress! I really do believe forgiveness is key. Doesn't mean I am crazy enough to stay married to the guy. It's an unhealthy relationship.

I rather like the new Wilderness, don't you?


----------



## pidge70

Nope


----------



## karole

Zanne said:


> Apples to oranges. I have more history with H and I do not know Wilderness IRL. Also, I said that I "try" not to hold grudges. I'm a work in progress! I really do believe forgiveness is key. Doesn't mean I am crazy enough to stay married to the guy. It's an unhealthy relationship.
> 
> I rather like the new Wilderness, don't you?


Birds of a feather...............


----------



## Zanne

Gee, Pidge, why so bitter? I find it serves no purpose in life. He admits that he messed up. Why not at least feel sorry for him and everyone else who is affected by the situation he finds himself in. He is obviously shaken by it. I would like to see him soften his heart a little for his ex-wife as well.


----------



## Caribbean Man

I am not condemning or judginganybody on this thread.

But I want to reiterate something I always say right here on TAM.

_Man isn't rational. We are rationalizing animals , and we always tend to rationalize things in a way that suits our biases and immediate needs._

Right and wrong are cannot be determined solely by how we feel about something, but by some higher standard or value system.


----------



## pidge70

Does the phrase, "God helps those that help themselves" apply to those that help themselves to another person's spouse?


----------



## pidge70

Zanne said:


> Gee, Pidge, why so bitter? I find it serves no purpose in life. He admits that he messed up. Why not at least feel sorry for him and everyone else who is affected by the situation he finds himself in. He is obviously shaken by it. I would like to see him soften his heart a little for his ex-wife as well.


I'm not bitter. I find it freaking hilarious. This is why I stopped going to church.


----------



## pidge70

karole said:


> Birds of a feather...............


To be fair, I *was* a cheater as well.


----------



## Zanne

Church is full of people. People are flawed. People can change. They may actually start out being a really good person according to society standards and then fall to temptation for whatever reason. Or maybe they were like Wilderness. Or worse, they are a pedophile or some other horrible thing. Can nobody redeem themselves in your eyes? The church can't screen people anymore than TAM can. It's a bad world out there but the good is around if you look for it, particularly in people. Wilderness has been pretty mean to me in the past, but the most I've said to him is to go away. I've also blocked him at the advice of a mod. He has always seemed in pain to me. As do you. I only wish the best for all of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

Update: we have gone NC. Only thing I might do is send a link to nmmng /mmslp for the husband to try and win her back.


----------



## DoF

wilderness said:


> Update: we have gone NC. Only thing I might do is send a link to nmmng /mmslp for the husband to try and win her back.


Let them work things out themselves/address their own issues. No need to make things worse for them, don't you think you already played a big role in that by sleeping with your wife?

Do you want this guy to show up at your doorstep? 

Worry about YOURSELF and YOURSELF ONLY. Even though it seems like you made great improvements in this regard, you still have a LONG LONG road ahead.

Figure yourself out man, and don't look for ANYONE else to do it for you (that includes religion/church).

I wish you good luck!!!


----------



## wilderness

DoF said:


> Let them work things out themselves/address their own issues. No need to make things worse for them, don't you think you already played a big role in that by sleeping with your wife?
> 
> Do you want this guy to show up at your doorstep?
> 
> Worry about YOURSELF and YOURSELF ONLY. Even though it seems like you made great improvements in this regard, you still have a LONG LONG road ahead.
> 
> Figure yourself out man, and don't look for ANYONE else to do it for you (that includes religion/church).
> 
> I wish you good luck!!!


I have news for you. I NEVER would have stopped if it wasn't for God.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

pidge70 said:


> To be fair, I *was* a cheater as well.


But there are remorseful cheaters and there are justifying cheaters. 

You flock with the remorseful cheaters, NOT the justifying cheaters.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> Update: we have gone NC. Only thing I might do is send a link to nmmng /mmslp for the husband to try and win her back.


Wilderness, this is great and I'm sure it was an agonizing decision for you.

However, let me be a nitpick and ask, *NC for how long?* 

Also, you said you want to help her husband "try" and win her back. You know that's not happening; she's already done.

So in theory you have made the right choice, at least it may satisfy the good people here, but what is going on in your heart? You have left a door open and you know it.


----------



## Zanne

Dad&Hubby said:


> But there are remorseful cheaters and there are justifying cheaters.
> 
> You flock with the remorseful cheaters, NOT the justifying cheaters.


I'm guessing the remorseful cheaters are, by default, the ones who stay with their spouse?


----------



## doubletrouble

Zanne said:


> I'm guessing the remorseful cheaters are, by default, the ones who stay with their spouse?


I see your point, but Tears was remorseful, and isn't with her spouse. It's not always what the cheater wants, remorseful or not. My fWW considers herself damned lucky I didn't kick her to the curb. And not being arrogant, I think she is, too.


----------



## Blondilocks

wilderness said:


> Update: we have gone NC. Only thing I might do is send a link to nmmng /mmslp for the husband to try and win her back.


Now, that you've reclaimed your property why don't you just waltz on over there and stick your tongue out at him? 

He doesn't want or need advice from the guy his wife *****d around on him with. 

A bunch of self-serving, self-entertaining drivel.


----------



## Happyfamily

wilderness said:


> Update: we have gone NC. Only thing I might do is send a link to nmmng /mmslp for the husband to try and win her back.


Translation: I just talked to her. I'll be talking to her again shortly. I was just hired as her husband's life coach. So this is the only contact we're going to have during no contact.


----------



## happy as a clam

wilderness said:


> Update: we have gone NC. Only thing I might do is send a link to nmmng /mmslp for the husband to try and win her back.


Ummm... I think the LAST thing her husband would want is advice from you. Wouldn't advise.


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> And I gave in to temptation and had sex with her.
> Feedback?


Wow this is rich, wilderness

After all you said about Zanne, you are OM for someone *JUST LIKE ZANNE!* :scratchhead:


----------



## Blonde

pidge70 said:


> This is why I stopped going to church.


ditto

if a hospital made people sicker would you recommend it to anyone?

"you will know them by their fruit"


----------



## Anon Pink

Blonde is here finally!

Oh wilderness! You are in for it now!


----------



## Blonde

Entertaining to see Zanne on here attempting to help you justify the affair. Entertaining like this:


----------



## Blonde

Anon Pink said:


> Blonde is here finally!
> 
> Oh wilderness! You are in for it now!


And I was doing so well with my Lenten abstinence for Holy Week, AP 

I was so stunned with this that I still wonder if wilderness made it up :scratchhead:

All that hell fire and brimstone raging against the evil wayward woman....

and now he has a WW of his own? :slap:


----------



## Blonde

Zanne, still praying for OMW like I promised...


----------



## DoF

wilderness said:


> I have news for you. I NEVER would have stopped if it wasn't for God.


I have news for you. You never would have stopped if it wasn't for YOU stopping.

God/religion is just a scapegoat you were looking for perhaps, and sure it might have helped you.

At the end of the day, it was still YOU.

YOU have the biggest power. You have to adjust your brain to think this way cause frankly, you WILL get to a point where religion/god WILL disappoint you.

It's just a matter of time before you have to rely JUST on yourself.

Sooner you realize this, better off you will be.


----------



## Blondilocks

"Entertaining to see Zanne on here attempting to help you justify the affair."

When the mighty have fallen, the previously fallen feel absolved. Or, it could be an example of Stockholm Syndrome.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Zanne said:


> Wilderness, this is great and I'm sure it was an agonizing decision for you.
> 
> However, let me be a nitpick and ask, *NC for how long?*
> 
> Also, you said you want to help her husband "try" and win her back. You know that's not happening; she's already done.


He does not know this! This is what she told him. But she has never been able to pull the pin.

Many people are in bad marriages. They say they want a divorce, but when it starts happening, many change their minds. It is easy to say you want out. It is much harder to do it. And when faced with the realities of leaving, many decide (often rightly) that the grass is no greener when they leave. 

Many decide that working on their marriage is more productive and rewarding than working on leaving it.


----------



## DoF

SadSamIAm said:


> He does not know this! This is what she told him. But she has never been able to pull the pin.
> 
> Many people are in bad marriages. They say they want a divorce, but when it starts happening, many change their minds. It is easy to say you want out. It is much harder to do it. And when faced with the realities of leaving, many decide (often rightly) that the grass is no greener when they leave.
> 
> Many decide that working on their marriage is more productive and rewarding than working on leaving it.


I have 0 confidence in OP's ex being that kind of a person/being that strong.

 :scratchhead:


----------



## Zanne

Blonde said:


> And I was doing so well with my Lenten abstinence for Holy Week, AP
> 
> *I was so stunned with this that I still wonder if wilderness made it up :scratchhead:*
> 
> All that hell fire and brimstone raging against the evil wayward woman....
> 
> and now he has a WW of his own? :slap:


I have questioned the same. But stranger things have happened!

And BTW, I am NOT justifying his actions. I'm just not a fire and brimstone kind of gal. It's one of my weaknesses actually. I have a soft heart for any sad, sick, broken, down on their luck, person. Animals too, unfortunately!


----------



## karole

Zanne, you certainly don't seem to have a soft heart for your OM's wife and family at least not enough to quit sleeping with her husband.


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> I don't think his family is going to survive whether I'm in the picture or not. At least that is what she says. Could she be lying? Of course it's possible. But I never knew her to be a liar. And that's the truth.


Really???

You need to go back and read the stuff you wrote to Zanne, about her innocent victim husband, how she is ruining the lives of innocent children, and what an abuser she is...

How come this woman gets such a pass?

You are letting the little head rule, wilderness

"I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 *but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.*" 1 Cor 9


----------



## turnera

Zanne said:


> I'm guessing the remorseful cheaters are, by default, the ones who stay with their spouse?


Remorseful cheaters are by default the ones who HOPE their spouse will give them a second chance so they can redeem themselves.

Hence the word remorseful.


----------



## BradWesley

What we have here, is a couple of people choosing what benefits them, and tossing aside the rest, or what can be called:

" A la carte Christians"


----------



## Zanne

karole said:


> Zanne, you certainly don't seem to have a soft heart for your OM's wife and family at least not enough to quit sleeping with her husband.


Touche, Karole. I do feel bad for her because she doesn't want her marriage to end and because she is blind to what is happening. But she also contributed to its demise (and continues to do so) and that was way before I came into the picture.


----------



## Zanne

turnera said:


> Remorseful cheaters are by default the ones who HOPE their spouse will give them a second chance so they can redeem themselves.
> 
> Hence the word remorseful.


That's a bunch of crap.

Remorseful to me means feeling sorry for ever being the cause of someone elses pain...for having the capability to inflict such pain and never be able to completely erase it for that person.

I never want a second chance with my husband for the sake of redeeming myself. And I know we will be better off apart.

But I will forever feel horrible for the way I hurt the man.


----------



## Blonde

Anon Pink said:


> You'll be okay wilderness!
> 
> Until blonde logs on. Then you are in serious sh!t.


:lol: Hey, I resemble that remark!



ScarletBegonias said:


> Who cares what she's feeling and whether or not she's lying? I thought you wanted to get right with God? cut her loose and *figure out what's going wrong with you that you'd sleep with a married woman.*
> Let her self destruct on her own bc I guarantee she'll destruct with or without you.


QFT^

Wilderness, my christian H cheated with a non christian and I feel sorry for her. I feel sorry for the message his behavior "preached" to her. Never once was I ever angry with her or blaming toward her. How is she supposed to have a clue about christian morals when she isn't one? 

Spiritually, this woman is far better off without you IMO. You can't build a "christian" M on a foundation of betrayal.


----------



## turnera

Zanne said:


> That's a bunch of crap.


Says the active remorseless cheater.


----------



## Idyit

Blonde said:


> ditto
> 
> if a hospital made people sicker would you recommend it to anyone?
> 
> "you will know them by their fruit"


There's actually a lot of similarities between hospitals and churches. Both are places to be healed, cared for, taught etc for things which we can't necessarily take care of or do for ourselves.

Hospitals are the worst festering reservoirs of 'bad bugs' anywhere. Mutated drug resistant killer organisms are created by the concentration of sickness and disease. Classification is required for infections. Community acquired pneumonia (CAP) versus Hospital acquired (HAP) and hospital acquired infections (HAIs) versus admitting diagnosis are carefully tracked because hospitals are a great place to get sick.

Both places have the relatively healthy care for those needing help. Hospitals go to great lengths to protect care givers but often experience injury or sickness due to exposure. (H1NI 'bird/swine" flu killed more healthcare workers than patients)

Hospitals and churches are staffed with well-meaning, good intentioned individuals...that may or may not be competent... mixed in with some really crappy characters.

An interesting book could be written drawing out the analogy between these two but I will refrain from doing so here. I guess the major difference would be that, despite their failures hospitals are held accountable (financially) for the problems they create. Churches and those perpetuating lousy teaching/doctrine will have a different sort of debt.

Sorry for the sidetrack. Blonde I really do enjoy you posts..

~ Passio


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> Update: we have gone NC. Only thing I might do is send a link to nmmng /mmslp for the husband to try and win her back.


I am very interested to know if a timeline was set or if this NC is forever?


----------



## karole

Zanne said:


> Touche, Karole. I do feel bad for her because she doesn't want her marriage to end and because she is blind to what is happening. But she also contributed to its demise (and continues to do so) and that was way before I came into the picture.


According to the OM? Its obvious what an honest person he is.


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> I talked to her, and she was really upset after viewing this thread. She mentioned that she felt I was leaving some facts out which will make me look very bad. Well, she was right. There was some cheating during our relationship (mostly by me). *There was some cheating during my marriage as well (some ONS).*
> 
> I guess I rationalized it all, because I never had an affair in my life. I couldn't conceive of making a mistake and then refusing to stop making that mistake. I couldn't undertand it...
> ...
> All this being said, once I became a believer on Jesus Christ He changed my heart in such a way that cheating does not have nearly the pull on me that it once did. I believe that I'll never cheat again on another person.
> 
> This is the truth.


So you had ONS (plural) during your M? But that was before you were a christian?

How did your ex-wife get the restraining order? What did you do? I think this AP (is she still reading this thread?) She is in the fog. She needs to know the details of what you did that left your wife feeling so threatened and afraid that she got a restraining order which remains to this day if I understand correctly.

Wilderness, you are a young man with a long life in front of you. Take a good long time out from romantic relationships and get some counseling and become a better man. That is God's will IMO.


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> So you had ONS (plural) during your M? But that was before you were a christian?
> 
> How did your ex-wife get the restraining order? What did you do? I think this AP (is she still reading this thread?) She is in the fog. She needs to know the details of what you did that left your wife feeling so threatened and afraid that she got a restraining order which remains to this day if I understand correctly.
> 
> Wilderness, you are a young man with a long life in front of you. Take a good long time out from romantic relationships and get some counseling and become a better man. That is God's will IMO.


Listen, the ONS were prior to becoming a Christian. And as mentioned previously, there was not an expectation of fidelity in my marriage. Poor decisions? Yes. Sin? Yes. Cheating? I'd say no.

As to the restraining order, my ex wife does not 'feel threatened' by me. That is nonsense. This is the same woman that punched me in the face with a closed fist (yes I called the cops but stupidly decided not to press charges), and also tried to hit me- with a CAR. The police witnessed that event, and in the mistake of my life, I didn't press charges. 

The restraining orders that she has taken out on me, have been based on blatant and provable lies. I have not even spoken with her since December of 2012! And even when I did speak to her, the only thing I was ever accused of was having an argument with her! She 'feels threatened' that the truth will come out, not about anything I have ever did! I have NEVER in my life raised my hands to any woman (I'm not even accused of doing so), yet I'm being made out to be an abuser by a provably false accuser. It's not right.

edit to add:

Please keep in mind that my ex and her mother have also falsely accused my father, my mother, my stepfather, her sister, and many other innocent people. They are false accusers and it's not right.


----------



## Blonde

You have come across to me as having unhealed wounds and unresolved baggage. I really think you have some SERIOUS recovery work to do before you are "husband material"

Your recovery will also benefit your daughter.

I can see how God can use this as a watershed in your life to FORCE you to take a good hard look in the mirror. Don't waste this lesson. Whenever we have to repeat a lesson the difficulty and pain is going to ratchet up.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Zanne said:


> I'm guessing the remorseful cheaters are, by default, the ones who stay with their spouse?


No, the remorseful cheaters are the ones who don't justify their affair(s). They recognize that them partaking in an affair is 100% their actions and choices and they own it. They don't blame their spouse, their environment, their situation.

Justifying cheaters always have "reasons" or "circumstances" to why they cheated. They always say that they are responsible, but it's always with a caveat. They give themselves a safety blanket of excuses and justifiers. When pressed, they always finish their ownership with a "but"....which always absolves them of the false responsibility they just spewed.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Zanne said:


> That's a bunch of crap.
> 
> Remorseful to me means feeling sorry for ever being the cause of someone elses pain...for having the capability to inflict such pain and never be able to completely erase it for that person.
> 
> I never want a second chance with my husband for the sake of redeeming myself. And I know we will be better off apart.
> 
> But I will forever feel horrible for the way I hurt the man.


Remorse also entails STOPPING the poor behavior or action. TRUE REMORSE anyway.

Someone who drank and drove and killed someone would feel guilty and bad about it, but I wouldn't consider them remorseful if you saw them drinking and driving again.


----------



## Blondilocks

Perhaps it would help Wilderness if he could come to terms with the fact that a ONS = Affair (longevity is irrelevant). Being a Christian has nothing to do with being unable to keep your pants zipped - being moral does.


----------



## wilderness

Blondilocks said:


> Perhaps it would help Wilderness if he could come to terms with the fact that a ONS = Affair (longevity is irrelevant). Being a Christian has nothing to do with being unable to keep your pants zipped - being moral does.


From the perspective of a former betrayed spouse, longevity is VERY relevant. Perhaps the _most_ relevant thing.


----------



## turnera

That's just YOUR perspective, though. It's unfair to expect others to behave/feel the same.


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> That's just YOUR perspective, though. It's unfair to expect others to behave/feel the same.


True, but that's the way I see it. I'm sure I'm not the only one with that perspective.


----------



## Blondilocks

wilderness said:


> From the perspective of a former betrayed spouse, longevity is VERY relevant. Perhaps the _most_ relevant thing.


If there was no expectation of fidelity in your marriage, how can you claim you were betrayed?

Does it really matter if one cheats with 10 people 1 day at a time versus cheating with 1 person for 10 days? Betrayal is betrayal.


----------



## wilderness

Blondilocks said:


> If there was no expectation of fidelity in your marriage, how can you claim you were betrayed?
> 
> Does it really matter if one cheats with 10 people 1 day at a time versus cheating with 1 person for 10 days? Betrayal is betrayal.


There was an expectation of _her_ fidelity, not my fidelity. I know that probably doesn't sit well with many, but that's the way that it was. However, after she asked me about my ONS, it was decided that there would be no more of that stuff in the future. So after I told her, there was an expectation of fidelity from both ends. (this was my decision, not hers, btw)

As to your example, the way that I see it, having sex outside of marriage 10x is 10x worse than having sex outside of marriage once. In other words, the more times it happens, the worse! This is the way that I feel from the betrayed spouse perspective. As such, I could probably forgive a ONS, but to forgive a long time affair- well maybe I could forgive it but no way could I remain married.

That's why a lot of times when a male BS finds out about the affair, the first question is "how many times did you fvck him?"


----------



## Wazza

Zanne said:


> Wilderness, this is great and I'm sure it was an agonizing decision for you.
> 
> However, let me be a nitpick and ask, *NC for how long?*
> 
> Also, you said you want to help her husband "try" and win her back. You know that's not happening; she's already done.
> 
> So in theory you have made the right choice, at least it may satisfy the good people here, but what is going on in your heart? You have left a door open and you know it.


I agree "for how long" is the question.

Beyond that, Zanne you are wrong, and I need to highlight it for Wlidernesses sake. Specifically,your post reflects your experience as if it were normal and inevitable. It's not, it's just your experience.

You left the door in your heart open. Others of us have managed to close it. Different circumstances? Different character of the people involved? Dumb luck? Probably a bit of all three.

So Wikderness, game on. Going NC is a good start, but take the warning from Zanne's post. It's just a start, you need strength and support to sustain it. The feeling won't just magically stop tomorrow, they may never stop. That doesn't make them right. The message to the woman needs to be, divorce if you have to, but you will not be there for her at the end. You need to state it and live it.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> True, but that's the way I see it. I'm sure I'm not the only one with that perspective.


Maybe. But what matters is the person you're discussing, not just anyone out there who might share the same perspective as you.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> There was an expectation of _her_ fidelity, not my fidelity.


Are we being punked?

Are you saying you married a woman and said to her "I expect you to never cheat on me but understand that I will screw whoever I want"?


----------



## Wazza

Zanne said:


> That's a bunch of crap.
> 
> Remorseful to me means feeling sorry for ever being the cause of someone elses pain...for having the capability to inflict such pain and never be able to completely erase it for that person.
> 
> I never want a second chance with my husband for the sake of redeeming myself. And I know we will be better off apart.
> 
> But I will forever feel horrible for the way I hurt the man.



Warm fuzzy kitten remorsefulness. That might be part of the problem. Real remorse involves changing your behaviour, not feeling guilty but continuing.


----------



## Blondilocks

wilderness said:


> There was an expectation of _her_ fidelity, not my fidelity. I know that probably doesn't sit well with many, but that's the way that it was. However, after she asked me about my ONS, it was decided that there would be no more of that stuff in the future. So after I told her, there was an expectation of fidelity from both ends. (this was my decision, not hers, btw)
> 
> As to your example, the way that I see it, having sex outside of marriage 10x is 10x worse than having sex outside of marriage once. In other words, the more times it happens, the worse! This is the way that I feel from the betrayed spouse perspective. As such, I could probably forgive a ONS, but to forgive a long time affair- well maybe I could forgive it but no way could I remain married.
> 
> That's why a lot of times when a male BS finds out about the affair, the first question is "how many times did you fvck him?"


You have no right to hold a spouse to a higher standard than you hold yourself. In other words, you were pretty much asking to be betrayed so Get Off The Cross! Some one needs the wood.

And, you didn't have just one ONS, did you?


----------



## Happyfamily

wilderness said:


> There was an expectation of _her_ fidelity, not my fidelity.


Old school. :smthumbup:


----------



## 3Xnocharm

wilderness said:


> From the perspective of a former betrayed spouse, longevity is VERY relevant. Perhaps the _most_ relevant thing.


Are you SERIOUS?? How can you possibly think that, for example, having half a dozen ONS's is more forgivable than say, a 3 month long affair?? :scratchhead: Oh, I know... because that's what YOU did. THAT's what makes it ok here. Sheesh. What kind of marriage expects fidelity for ONE PERSON only?? And just because you COULD didnt mean you SHOULD. 

And now here you are, the OM for a BS. Are you preaching at HER to stay in her marriage too??


----------



## doubletrouble

blonde said:


> whenever we have to repeat a lesson the difficulty and pain is going to ratchet up.


qft. 

Amen!!!


----------



## doubletrouble

wilderness said:


> As to your example, the way that I see it, *having sex outside of marriage 10x is 10x worse than having sex outside of marriage once.* In other words, the more times it happens, the worse! This is the way that I feel from the betrayed spouse perspective. As such, I could probably forgive a ONS, but to forgive a long time affair- well maybe I could forgive it but no way could I remain married.
> 
> That's why a lot of times when a male BS finds out about the affair, the first question is "how many times did you fvck him?"


How about, say, 4 or 5 times, along with a clear emotional bond? Is that as bad? Where's the line drawn?

I ask because that's the exact situation I have been in.


----------



## SadSamIAm

turnera said:


> Are we being punked?
> 
> Are you saying you married a woman and said to her "I expect you to never cheat on me but understand that I will screw whoever I want"?


The more I read this thread, coupled with past posts from Wilderness, the more I think we may be being punked.

Makes no sense that the same person posted what he did to people that cheated in the past and what he is now saying. Like it is two completely different people.

I can hardly wait to hear the timeline they have in place for the NC. I am guessing the conversation was something like.

Wonderless - I just can't see you when you are married. It isn't right. We can't have contact anymore, none.

CS - What do I need to do?

Wonderless - You need to start the ball rolling on getting divorced.

CS - Then you will be there for me?

Wonderless - Sure!!!!

CS - I have an appointment with a lawyer on Tuesday. He said papers should be drawn up by Thursday.

Wonderless - OK, see you Friday night!


----------



## Zanne

Dad&Hubby said:


> No, the remorseful cheaters are the ones who don't justify their affair(s). They recognize that them partaking in an affair is 100% their actions and choices and they own it. They don't blame their spouse, their environment, their situation.
> 
> Justifying cheaters always have "reasons" or "circumstances" to why they cheated. They always say that they are responsible, but it's always with a caveat. They give themselves a safety blanket of excuses and justifiers. When pressed, they always finish their ownership with a "but"....which always absolves them of the false responsibility they just spewed.


I totally agree. It's a very selfish choice. The question is, what category does Wilderness find himself in?


----------



## Blondilocks

The question "Are we being punked"? Pretty sure we are. When he posted that he was thinking of sending the BS a link to NMMNG outed him. He just had to gild the lily.

Doesn't mean we can't tell him what we think of him, though, does it?


----------



## TiggyBlue

wilderness said:


> There was an expectation of _her_ fidelity, not my fidelity. I know that probably doesn't sit well with many, but that's the way that it was. However, after she asked me about my ONS, it was decided that there would be no more of that stuff in the future. So after I told her, there was an expectation of fidelity from both ends. (this was my decision, not hers, btw)


So you both had a talk and agreed that you would and go have ONS while she would only sleep with you?


----------



## Trickster

SadSamIAm said:


> Wilderness is proving himself to be just like the 'christians' from my home town.
> 
> Seeing how these people lived made me realize that going to church and talking about god really showed me nothing about how 'good' these people were.
> 
> I think the way they lived was the 'reason' they went to church. Not saying everyone at church is bad, just saying that going to church and appearing christian doesn't make you a good person.


Some people are good without effort and they go to church to be better.

I think the majority of church goers feel they are broken in some way and want to do and be better. 

I think the people who preach to others the most do so because they have to hear it all the time so they don't forget... 

I know some older good people who go to church every Sunday... In 7 years, the have never preached to me.. I have done many things they could say something to me, but they don't judge me at all...

When I was in A.A. hearing others talk about drinking, their storiesand and how bad it is kept me from drinking for a while... I am still broken no matter how many meetings I go to...It still wasn't enough to stop me from picking up that first drink.

Christians are the same... We are all human. We do our best... Desire is something hard to resist...

Sometimes good people do bad things... It doesn't mean people are bad...it means we're human...


----------



## SadSamIAm

Trickster said:


> Some people are good without effort and they go to church to be better.
> 
> I think the majority of church goers feel they are broken in some way and want to do and be better.
> 
> I think the people who preach to others the most do so because they have to hear it all the time so they don't forget...
> 
> I know some older good people who go to church every Sunday... In 7 years, the have never preached to me.. I have done many things they could say something to me, but they don't judge me at all...
> 
> When I was in A.A. hearing others talk about drinking, their storiesand and how bad it is kept me from drinking for a while... I am still broken no matter how many meetings I go to...It still wasn't enough to stop me from picking up that first drink.
> 
> Christians are the same... We are all human. We do our best... Desire is something hard to resist...
> 
> Sometimes good people do bad things... It doesn't mean people are bad...it means we're human...


I know of some guys and girls that cheat on their spouses. They have done it multiple times. Their spouses have no clue and think them have great marriages.

Are these good people doing bad things or are they just bad people? Are they just being human?

There are varying degrees of bad behavior. A spouse lieing about working late when they are actually watching the game with a buddy. A teenager lieing about where they went.

I think of these things as being 'human'. Good people doing not so good things.

But cheating on your spouse. I don't consider that 'just being human'.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> There was an expectation of _her_ fidelity, not my fidelity. I know that probably doesn't sit well with many, but that's the way that it was. However, after she asked me about my ONS, it was decided that there would be no more of that stuff in the future. So after I told her, there was an expectation of fidelity from both ends. (this was my decision, not hers, btw)


Is it because you were the "bad boy"?

My husband was like this when we were dating and first married. He partyed a lot while I was content to stay home. Oh I heard many rumors and even found out things later that I really didn't want to know. He cheated more than once during that time but I just didn't want to know. I was young and inexperienced, low self esteem, etc. I was happy to have a boyfriend and later a family.

My guess is your ex wife gained some confidence and an attitude and she was probably a little psycho all along. You know what they say about paybacks...

I do believe you when you say she trumped up false charges against you and your family members. I know people like that. Very sad.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> Is it because you were the "bad boy"?
> 
> My husband was like this when we were dating and first married. He partyed a lot while I was content to stay home. Oh I heard many rumors and even found out things later that I really didn't want to know. He cheated more than once during that time but I just didn't want to know. I was young and inexperienced, low self esteem, etc. I was happy to have a boyfriend and later a family.
> 
> My guess is your ex wife gained some confidence and an attitude and she was probably a little psycho all along. You know what they say about paybacks...
> 
> I do believe you when you say she trumped up false charges against you and your family members. I know people like that. Very sad.


Yes, I think it was part of being the 'bad boy'. I don't believe for one second that sleeping with a couple of other women early in my marriage had a thing to do with my divorce. My wife had an 'it goes with the territory' attitude about it, and to some degree I think it turned her on. It was something that I know for a fact was openly discussed with other women about me. 

And again, I don't want to excuse the idiotic decisions that I made. Just that it wasn't cheating.


----------



## Trickster

I don't think it matters if people are Christian or not. Everybody knows cheating is wrong. What I don't like is when when people say they're Christian so it automatically makes them morally better than the non Christian (plug in any other religion as well)

When people let others know they are a Christian and talk about it often, I keep my distance...I don't need to know if people are Christian or not...I think their behavior says it all...Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheist, Agnostics...etc.'..IMO experience the same amount of cheating...

So I know some of you will show some study revealing that church goers are morally better than non church goers..

Yes sometimes bad people go there church h as well... They go to learn to avoid temptation, to fill that void, fellowship... They want to avoid feeling like they do... Sometimes all the preaching we do to others isn't enough.... Do as I say, not as I do...


----------



## Trickster

The only thing I know about Jesus is he forgives... If we want to be Christian, we have to be "Christ like" We have to forgive as well. Forgive our enemies. Human being have a hard time forgiving our enemies and people who hurt us.


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> Update: we have gone NC.


Excellent!


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> From the perspective of a former betrayed spouse, longevity is VERY relevant. Perhaps the _most_ relevant thing.


Nooooop

That’s why we promise on our wedding day before God and all of our chosen witnesses “to love, honor, and cherish each other—*forsaking all others*—for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, ’til death do we part.” 

I don't see anything there that has a 5 second rule like food dropped on the floor

Cheating once is cheating

Perhaps more easily (for some) to move through and past it to reconcile than is a long term affair

Anyway - as I said before SMOKE AND MIRRORS 

You are a serial cheater

You could actually care less about repentance - if you were a woman you would be labeled a Drama Queen

You have lived in drama and treachery so long, I don't think you know what calmness and being righteous actually even is


Church is a hospital for sinners, go to your church and those men you spoke of who will keep you supposedly accountable and let them take you under their wing.
BUT - make sure you fully disclose your actions to them, so they can keep their wives very far, far away from you


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> Yes, I think it was part of being the 'bad boy'. I don't believe for one second that sleeping with a couple of other women early in my marriage had a thing to do with my divorce. My wife had an 'it goes with the territory' attitude about it, and to some degree I think it turned her on. It was something that I know for a fact was openly discussed with other women about me.
> 
> And again, I don't want to excuse the idiotic decisions that I made. Just that it wasn't cheating.


Baloney

Sleeping with a couple of other women early in your marriage - set it up for the failure you eventually had

And yeah it was CHEATING, it was INFIDELITY, it was ADULTERY
just that neither you nor your wife gave a crap about your vows


----------



## Unique Username

lipstick on a pig....still a pig


----------



## Blonde

Blondilocks said:


> Perhaps it would help Wilderness if he could come to terms with the fact that a ONS = Affair (longevity is irrelevant). * Being a Christian has nothing to do with being unable to keep your pants zipped - being moral does*.


I hold self professed christians to a much higher standard. My take on scripture is that God does too. 

This is from the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7 which is one big sermon so the second paragraph from chapter 7 refers back to the entire teaching including the first paragraph which is from chapter 5:

27“You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell…..

24“Therefore everyone who *hears these words of mine and puts them into practice* is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who* hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice* is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”​


----------



## turnera

My mother wasn't a Christian but she taught me the exact same thing.


----------



## Blonde

turnera said:


> My mother wasn't a Christian but she taught me the exact same thing.


she had the "law written in her heart" AKA a sensitive conscience

Rom 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15* in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts*, their *conscience* bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


----------



## turnera

Yep, and didn't need the Bible to teach her that.


----------



## NobodySpecial

wilderness said:


> There was an expectation of _her_ fidelity, not my fidelity. I know that probably doesn't sit well with many, but that's the way that it was. However, after she asked me about my ONS, it was decided that there would be no more of that stuff in the future. So after I told her, there was an expectation of fidelity from both ends. (this was my decision, not hers, btw)
> 
> As to your example, the way that I see it, having sex outside of marriage 10x is 10x worse than having sex outside of marriage once. In other words, the more times it happens, the worse! This is the way that I feel from the betrayed spouse perspective. As such, I could probably forgive a ONS, but to forgive a long time affair- well maybe I could forgive it but no way could I remain married.
> 
> That's why a lot of times when a male BS finds out about the affair, the first question is "how many times did you fvck him?"


You have a weird moral code. Whatever. But don't you claim to follow GOD's moral code as laid out by Christianity? When are you Christian? When it suits you?


----------



## turnera

NobodySpecial said:


> You have a weird moral code. Whatever. But don't you claim to follow GOD's moral code as laid out by Christianity? When are you Christian? When it suits you?


On Sundays! :rofl:


----------



## SadSamIAm

turnera said:


> On Sundays! :rofl:


You are being too kind. I was thinking Sundays between 9:00am and 9:45am.


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> You are being too kind. I was thinking Sundays between 9:00am and 9:45am.


Oh, MAN! Our services were a full hour. I want to be Christian light. Just kidding, just kidding.


----------



## JustGrinding

When I was younger, I had an acquaintance who was an avid outdoorsman and knew the swamps and backwaters of the southern St. Johns River like most of us know our own back yards.

One night, we were out on his airboat and he told me he wanted to show me something unique. He nudged the airboat ashore, and after just a few yards, the tall grass gave way to an open wallow, probably 15-20 feet across.

The wallow was full of hundreds of Cottonmouths, ranging from very small up to about 3-4 feet in length. Disturbed by the boat, eerily illuminated in the helmet light, the snakes were in the process of breaking up their mating ball and slithering through the mud, muck, and rancid swamp water to escape into the tall grass. The visible ground, starting inches from my feet, was rippling and rolling with the dank, sinuous bodies of deadly vipers, whose black eyes glinted along the edge of that cone of light, giving the impression that their numbers spread into the horizon.

It wasn’t a chill that ran down my spine, it was an electrified bolt of instinct, empowered through millions of years of evolution; a realization that I was in a place of indescribable danger, that the creatures in my presence, simply following their own natural programming, could and would inflict on me a particularly painful and lingering destruction, without thought or consequence. 

I was in the presence of perfect, soulless evil, and its imprint, to this day, chills my psyche.

I get largely the same sensation reading this thread.


----------



## wilderness

JustGrinding said:


> When I was younger, I had an acquaintance who was an avid outdoorsman and knew the swamps and backwaters of the southern St. Johns River like most of us know our own back yards.
> 
> One night, we were out on his airboat and he told me he wanted to show me something unique. He nudged the airboat ashore, and after just a few yards, the tall grass gave way to an open wallow, probably 15-20 feet across.
> 
> The wallow was full of hundreds of Cottonmouths, ranging from very small up to about 3-4 feet in length. Disturbed by the boat, eerily illuminated in the helmet light, the snakes were in the process of breaking up their mating ball and slithering through the mud, muck, and rancid swamp water to escape into the tall grass. The visible ground, starting inches from my feet, was rippling and rolling with the dank, sinuous bodies of deadly vipers, whose black eyes glinted along the edge of that cone of light, giving the impression that their numbers spread into the horizon.
> 
> It wasn’t a chill that ran down my spine, it was an electrified bolt of instinct, empowered through millions of years of evolution; a realization that I was in a place of indescribable danger, that the creatures in my presence, simply following their own natural programming, could and would inflict on me a particularly painful and lingering destruction, without thought or consequence.
> 
> I was in the presence of perfect, soulless evil, and its imprint, to this day, chills my psyche.
> 
> I get largely the same sensation reading this thread.



I have had dreams like this. I feel something is trying to destroy me. And I know I brought this evil on myself.


I've


----------



## AliceA

Talk of religion seems to influence people into flights of fantasy.

I don't believe in 'evil'. I don't use it as an excuse for my choices. What drives a person to do things that they know are hurtful to another human being is simply selfishness. It's a part of all of us. Some of us are less able to feel empathy I think, and therefore more likely to indulge in selfish impulses as we don't know or care how it will make another person feel. The truly horrible acts are always about the person doing them, to feel powerful, in control, pleasure etc. 

Basically, it's just about a human being putting their pleasure before everyone else, and this is why we have 'rules', whether taught by religion or law or just expectations of society. These rules are there to try to stop people from simply being their potentially extremely selfish selves, for those who cannot or will not care about the consequences of their actions on other people, there are guidelines given to them to make the lives of the society of people who have to live with them easier. I think of these rules as cheat sheets. "Here, since you can't figure this out for yourself, here is a list of what you should and shouldn't do to get through life productively instead of destructively".


----------



## Trickster

I like how you described thatJustGrinding... I can actually visualize the scene.

I grew up near a marsh.. We would camp out where alligators and water moccasins were nearby... There were way more snakes in your story... Don't think I would of stuck around in a place like that.


----------



## wilderness

Trickster said:


> I like how you described thatJustGrinding... I can actually visualize the scene.
> 
> I grew up near a marsh.. We would camp out where alligators and water moccasins were nearby... There were way more snakes in your story... Don't think I would of stuck around in a place like that.


Which is why I'm not sticking around in the figurative sense. I never want to feel like this again...like such a worthless scumbag. And I brought shame to God's great name. I don't intend to ever hurt another human being like this. Not ever.


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> Which is why I'm not sticking around in the figurative sense. I never want to feel like this again...like such a worthless scumbag. And I brought shame to God's great name. I don't intend to ever hurt another human being like this. Not ever.


Actions speak louder than words


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> Which is why I'm not sticking around in the figurative sense. I never want to feel like this again...like such a worthless scumbag. And I brought shame to God's great name. I don't intend to ever hurt another human being like this. Not ever.


I'm really glad to hear it, wilderness. 

Trust that feeling. It's your morals, your integrity speaking.


----------



## JCD

pidge70 said:


> You know what happens when you assume right?
> 
> Why wouldn't either one of them lie?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So...just since we are doubting everyone...should we assume every post you write is a lie?

You should (correctly) be insulted by that insinuation. But how do we know a Pidge isn't a lying troll and a wilderness is?

We can't. So, even if wilderness has lied about every single thing in this post...I am still going to assume that we are getting factual information. Because even if it is'fake' it might inform or educate some other reader...just as someone can learn a life lesson from a movie (a collection of lies).


----------



## turnera

I have faith in wilderness to do the right thing.


----------



## pidge70

JCD said:


> So...just since we are doubting everyone...should we assume every post you write is a lie?
> 
> You should (correctly) be insulted by that insinuation. But how do we know a Pidge isn't a lying troll and a wilderness is?
> 
> We can't. So, even if wilderness has lied about every single thing in this post...I am still going to assume that we are getting factual information. Because even if it is'fake' it might inform or educate some other reader...just as someone can learn a life lesson from a movie (a collection of lies).


I'm sorry, was I quoting you? Nope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> I have faith in wilderness to do the right thing.


Thank you, that means a lot. Really I appreciate your kindness.


----------



## Unique Username

JCD said:


> So...just since we are doubting everyone...should we assume every post you write is a lie?
> 
> You should (correctly) be insulted by that insinuation. But how do we know a Pidge isn't a lying troll and a wilderness is?
> 
> We can't. So, even if wilderness has lied about every single thing in this post...I am still going to assume that we are getting factual information. Because even if it is'fake' it might inform or educate some other reader...just as someone can learn a life lesson from a movie (a collection of lies).


Hmm
Well I know for a fact that Pidge isn't a lying troll

and Wilderness has tripped himself up with lies

and most importantly and SADLY has lied to himself


By definition :
Hypocrite - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

hyp·o·crite noun \ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\
: a person who claims or pretends to have certain beliefs about what is right but who behaves in a way that disagrees with those beliefs

Full Definition of HYPOCRITE

1
: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2
: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feeling


therefore, Wilderness called himself a liar


----------



## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> I'm sorry, was I quoting you? Nope.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pidge -

Why are you so angry? What happened to you that your heart got so hard? What is your story?


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> Hmm
> Well I know for a fact that Pidge isn't a lying troll
> 
> and Wilderness has tripped himself up with lies
> 
> and most importantly and SADLY has lied to himself
> 
> 
> By definition :
> Hypocrite - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> 
> hyp·o·crite noun \ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\
> : a person who claims or pretends to have certain beliefs about what is right but who behaves in a way that disagrees with those beliefs
> 
> Full Definition of HYPOCRITE
> 
> 1
> : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
> 2
> : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feeling
> :lol:
> 
> therefore, Wilderness called himself a liar



Yes this is me. I'm trying to learn how to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. I don't want to be a hypocrite anymore. I don't want to be a liar anymore.


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> Pidge -
> 
> Why are you so angry? What happened to you that your heart got so hard? What is your story?



Trying to derail your own thread?

Take the magnifying glass off your own deceit?

That, actually, is what an Internet Forum troll does.



P.S. I Haven't seen any anger from Pidge


----------



## turnera

wilderness (and everyone else reading), we aren't born knowing this stuff. We aren't even taught it in high school. Based on how well our parents raised us, we take the hard knocks we get and learn from them - or don't. That's why it is SO important to know your SO's family and background.


----------



## Zanne

Unique Username said:


> P.S. I Haven't seen any anger from Pidge


Well, she's not happy!


----------



## pidge70

Zanne said:


> Well, she's not happy!


How in the world would you know?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Unique Username

turnera said:


> wilderness (and everyone else reading), we aren't born knowing this stuff. We aren't even taught it in high school. Based on how well our parents raised us, we take the hard knocks we get and learn from them - or don't. That's why it is SO important to know your SO's family and background.












It also helps to have an SO that isn't married to someone else


----------



## Zanne

pidge70 said:


> How in the world would you know?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can read.


----------



## Anon Pink

I just have to say, all the venom wilderness has expressed toward WS, while he portrays himself and the betrayed husband...all the while he knew he himself had affairs, ONS or whatever he wants to call it! But it was okay for him because he insists they had an open marriage at the time?

Wilderness, you don't need clergy, you need therapy. I've been saying it since we first began to cross one another in Zanne's thread. You have seriously effed up thinking errors!


----------



## Unique Username

Zanne is now defending Wilderness

that is curious

deflecting
verb (used with object), verb (used without object) to bend or turn aside; turn from a true course


----------



## JCD

pidge70 said:


> I'm sorry, was I quoting you? Nope.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your point goes well beyond only applying to a specific poster. It goes to the basic honesty of everyone here.

So that is a dodge and a lame one. You seem to want to reserve the right to accuse anyone you have a tendency to not like (cheaters) of being automatically dishonest unless they can prove (on the internet?) they are honest.

So your system of tossed out accusations of dishonesty makes this entire site meaningless.

And quite frankly, I've read a bunch of BS posts and they have seemed...suspicious. Details missing. Contradictions. The WS saying things which resonated according to the personality the BS displayed on the forum.

I didn't note anyone calling their honesty into question. Well...seldom.

Do you really want to open this can of worms? I sure don't.


----------



## Unique Username




----------



## Trickster

wilderness said:


> Thank you, that means a lot. Really I appreciate your kindness.


What's the right thing?

That he will confess to his ex wives husband that it was all on him in hopes to salvage their marriage? At this point, there is no right thing...if his ex doesn't want to save her marriage to begin with.

As another poster stated, Wilderness was just the catalyst to end the marriage... Maybe it was over anyway... Not that its an excuse...

I think wilderness will be back with his ex wife a year from now.

Wilderness is human after all.


----------



## wilderness

I can't sleep. Looking forward to the day I can look myself in the mirror again.


----------



## Anon Pink

wilderness said:


> I can't sleep. Looking forward to the day I can look myself in the mirror again.


Me neither. Let's fight about what is and what isn't faithfulness?

I think faithfulness assumes certain attributes that can be ascribed to all marriages. The exceptions being the marriages in which the LACK of expected faithfulness is expressly spoken and agreed upon. IOW, in the absence of a formally agreed upon state of an open marriage or some form of spoken hall pass, fidelity is expected within the confines of a marriage.

Your turn.


----------



## turnera

The best person I've ever known is a former cheater. She's wiser, kinder, smarter than anyone I know. She spends time helping others fix their lives. She lives a life of faithfulness, openness, and honesty now and has 100% made up for what she did. She owned up to what she did, took ownership, never blamed anyone else (or tried to say she had an open marriage). It is possible.


----------



## pidge70

Zanne said:


> I can read.


If this is true, why have you never taken any of the great advice given to you? You know from people like bfree and Wazza? People were trying so hard to help you and you basically spit in their faces.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

wilderness said:


> Pidge -
> 
> Why are you so angry? What happened to you that your heart got so hard? What is your story?


This is funny coming from you Mister "Down With All Evil Wayward Spoused"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

pidge70 said:


> This is funny coming from you Mister "Down With All Evil Wayward Spoused"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Which he apologized for and asked for forgiveness.

Are YOU the type of person who will hold a grudge?

Let it go, Pidge. You will feel so much lighter if you look for the good in people!


----------



## Zanne

pidge70 said:


> If this is true, why have you never taken any of the great advice given to you? You know from people like bfree and Wazza? People were trying so hard to help you and you basically spit in their faces.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have applied plenty of the great advice I've read here to my life.

Advice is like opinions based on experience. I value it coming from wise people. However, they are not here on the ground, so to speak, with me. Every day I live my own life and I also suffer my own consequences. I give my own advice based on that, which may or may not be helpful to anybody else.


----------



## pidge70

Zanne said:


> Which he apologized for and asked for forgiveness.
> 
> Are YOU the type of person who will hold a grudge?
> 
> Let it go, Pidge. You will feel so much lighter if you look for the good in people!


I honestly could care less what happens in your life or wilderness. I have no grudge simply because I do not care. There are those of us that came to this site to actually try and fix our relationships. Then there are those that come in here and find yet another AP and those that come here to judge maliciously. I am not here for either. I tried to get to you as a fellow cheater and help you see the bad choices you were making and the destruction that will be left behind. You chose to ignore it, which is your right and now your situation is worse.

Am I happy all the time? No. Is my life perfect? No. Will I continue to try to be a better person? Damn skippy. 

I will be happy because I choose to and it won't come at the expense of another person.


----------



## wilderness

I was so angry with her for so long, I didn't realize what was _underneath_ the anger. These overwhelming feelings of sadness, regret, despair, rejection, shame, love, etc…it's like they were trapped by my anger. Once I was no longer angry at her, once I released it, it was like a flood of emotion overwhelmed the levy. 

Things that happened 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago and now it feels like they just happened yesterday. I can't believe how much was buried inside of me, more than I ever knew. They say time heals all wounds but these wounds have not healed. It doesn't feel like they'll ever heal.

Anger is just a _mask_. And I wore that mask, it's name is denial, for many years. Now it's gone and all that is left is raw skin.


----------



## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> I honestly could care less what happens in your life or wilderness. I have no grudge simply because I do not care. There are those of us that came to this site to actually try and fix our relationships. Then there are those that come in here and find yet another AP and those that come here to judge maliciously. I am not here for either. I tried to get to you as a fellow cheater and help you see the bad choices you were making and the destruction that will be left behind. You chose to ignore it, which is your right and now your situation is worse.
> 
> Am I happy all the time? No. Is my life perfect? No. Will I continue to try to be a better person? Damn skippy.
> 
> I will be happy because I choose to and it won't come at the expense of another person.


For someone that doesn't care you sure have a lot to say on my thread.


----------



## Zanne

Except you have always been mean toward me, even as you were trying to "help."

My point about Wilderness is, he is apparently no longer the malicious judge of evil wayward spouses, so why not treat him with kindness? Or will he forever be that person in your eyes? IOW, once a cheater, always a cheater....except for you of course.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> Anger is just a _mask_. And I wore that mask, it's name is denial, for many years. Now it's gone and all that is left is raw skin.


that's how you learn and grow, wilderness.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> Except you have always been mean toward me, even as you were trying to "help."
> 
> My point about Wilderness is, he is apparently no longer the malicious judge of evil wayward spouses, so why not treat him with kindness? Or will he forever be that person in your eyes? IOW, once a cheater, always a cheater....except for you of course.


Have you ever heard of 'splitting', Zanne? It's a psychological defense mechanism that people use, they 'split' a person to be either all good (white) or all bad (black). I know I've caught myself doing it, heck I've even done it to you in the past. Once someone is considered 'black', i.e- all bad, it then becomes very easy to treat them badly as an all bad person does not deserve respect or kindness. It's the minds way of dehumanizing someone. 

I think some have split me, and you, all black in their minds. They can't conceive that someone that makes a bad choice (or even makes several bad choices) can be anything other than 'all bad'. 

It all boils down to this-
hate the sin, love the sinner.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> Have you ever heard of 'splitting', Zanne? It's a psychological defense mechanism that people use, they 'split' a person to be either all good (white) or all bad (black). I know I've caught myself doing it, heck I've even done it to you in the past. Once someone is considered 'black', i.e- all bad, it then becomes very easy to treat them badly as an all bad person does not deserve respect or kindness. It's the minds way of dehumanizing someone.
> 
> I think some have split me, and you, all black in their minds. They can't conceive that someone that makes a bad choice (or even makes several bad choices) can be anything other than 'all bad'.
> 
> It all boils down to this-
> hate the sin, love the sinner.
> 
> Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.


Amen, brother. And I pray you will continue to glorify His name. May God have mercy on me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

> Except you have always been mean toward me, even as you were trying to "help."


I wasn't *always* mean to you. I may have been on occasion and for that I apologize. 



> IOW, once a cheater, always a cheater....except for you of course.


I've never said that. The difference between you and I is I am a FWW while you still continue to be one.


----------



## pidge70

> Have you ever heard of 'splitting', Zanne? It's a psychological defense mechanism that people use, they 'split' a person to be either all good (white) or all bad (black).


I know I have been guilty of this. I am a BPD'er, something I have admitted to on this forum. I hope you do get right with God wilderness. I just think that God's forgiveness isn't all that you and Zanne need. It's easy for God to forgive your sins. Try asking for forgiveness from those you have sinned against. Trust me, it is a lot harder.


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> I was so angry with her for so long, I didn't realize what was _underneath_ the anger. These overwhelming feelings of sadness, regret, despair, rejection, shame, love, etc…it's like they were trapped by my anger. Once I was no longer angry at her, once I released it, it was like a flood of emotion overwhelmed the levy.
> 
> Things that happened 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago and now it feels like they just happened yesterday. I can't believe how much was buried inside of me, more than I ever knew. They say time heals all wounds but these wounds have not healed. It doesn't feel like they'll ever heal.
> 
> Anger is just a _mask_. And I wore that mask, it's name is denial, for many years. Now it's gone and all that is left is raw skin.


I hope you realize that the chances are great that you will experience the same emotions for her again (sadness, anger, rejection, etc.).

You weren't good enough for her before. She very well could using you as a crutch to get out of her marriage. 

Relationships that come from affairs rarely succeed.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Zanne said:


> Amen, brother. And I pray you will continue to glorify His name. May God have mercy on me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And the wonderful thing is that if you happen to do some bad things again, all you need to do is pray and ask for forgiveness. 

After all, you are only human.

Being Christian is like being given the ultimate 'hall pass'!


----------



## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> I know I have been guilty of this. I am a BPD'er, something I have admitted to on this forum. I hope you do get right with God wilderness. I just think that God's forgiveness isn't all that you and Zanne need. It's easy for God to forgive your sins. Try asking for forgiveness from those you have sinned against. Trust me, it is a lot harder.


The one I sinned against _is _God. His opinion is more important to me than anyone else's. It's _not _easy to confess your sins. My ex wife is a BPD, so I have compassion on you. My experience is that those people have had 'heart trauma' which makes you no different than me. I thank you for your post and I pray good things for you as well.


----------



## wilderness

SadSamIAm said:


> *And the wonderful thing is that if you happen to do some bad things again, all you need to do is pray and ask for forgiveness.
> *


And it's a good thing it's that way, or else all of us would be in big big trouble. Every single one of us does bad things. There isn't one person other than Jesus Christ that can say differently.


----------



## Blondilocks

"*Being Christian is like being given the ultimate 'hall pass'!* "

Not really. When a parishioner keeps repeating their sin they are demonstrating that they are not truly repentant of their behavior. The church can discipline and even excommunicate the parishioner so that the parishioner can learn true repentance and get right with the Lord.


----------



## pidge70

Blondilocks said:


> "*Being Christian is like being given the ultimate 'hall pass'!* "
> 
> Not really. When a parishioner keeps repeating their sin they are demonstrating that they are not truly repentant of their behavior. The church can discipline and even excommunicate the parishioner so that the parishioner can learn true repentance and get right with the Lord.


Good.


----------



## Maricha75

wilderness said:


> *The one I sinned against is God. His opinion is more important to me than anyone else's. It's not easy to confess your sins.* My ex wife is a BPD, so I have compassion on you. My experience is that those people have had 'heart trauma' which makes you no different than me. I thank you for your post and I pray good things for you as well.


We are also admonished to confess to each other, to make things right with those we have hurt/harmed... IOW, the husband of the woman you had sex with. You said you have gone NC with her, now. I hope you can continue with that. That is the difference between your situation and Zanne's. She is still involved with her AP. Do I think she is all bad? No. Do I think you are all bad? No. But you are willing to, at least, make things right with God. And, I'm sorry to say, but as long as Zanne is continuing in her affair, she is not going to be able to be right with God. Sin separates us from God... And, no matter how it is colored, cheating is a sin. Yes, we can be forgiven, but that does NOT mean that you are free to continue an affair just because you asked God to fogive you, once. Jesus told the woman brought to Him because she was "caught in adultery" that He didn't condemn her... but what is the one thing many forget about that particular incident? He also said, "Go and sin no more." IOW, stop doing this.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blondilocks said:


> "*Being Christian is like being given the ultimate 'hall pass'!* "
> 
> Not really. When a parishioner keeps repeating their sin they are demonstrating that they are not truly repentant of their behavior. The church can discipline and even excommunicate the parishioner so that the parishioner can learn true repentance and get right with the Lord.


Until they repent! God forgives all sins.


----------



## wilderness

Blondilocks said:


> "*Being Christian is like being given the ultimate 'hall pass'!* "
> 
> Not really. When a parishioner keeps repeating their sin they are demonstrating that they are not truly repentant of their behavior. The church can discipline and even excommunicate the parishioner so that the parishioner can learn true repentance and get right with the Lord.


Anyone that thinks that there are no consequences of sin to a believing Christian doesn't know my Father in heaven:

"For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth."
Proverbs 3:12

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."
Hebrews 12:6


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> And it's a good thing it's that way, or else all of us would be in big big trouble. Every single one of us does bad things. There isn't one person other than Jesus Christ that can say differently.


I don't think it is a good thing. 

Yes, everyone does bad things, but there are different levels of 'bad'. 

If you knew you would go to hell for sleeping with a married woman, would you do it?

Throwing out the Christian card and asking for forgiveness is getting off too easy.


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> Anyone that thinks that there are no consequences of sin to a believing Christian doesn't know my Father in heaven:
> 
> "For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth."
> Proverbs 3:12
> 
> "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."
> Hebrews 12:6


Doesn't sound like much of a consequence to me. 

When I went to confession when I was 14 I was told to "say ten Hail Mary's". 

How many were you given for fuvking the guys wife?


----------



## Blondilocks

SadSamIAm said:


> Until they repent! God forgives all sins.


Are you dismayed that sinners who are truly repentant are forgiven?


----------



## SadSamIAm

Maricha75 said:


> We are also admonished to confess to each other, to make things right with those we have hurt/harmed... IOW, the husband of the woman you had sex with. You said you have gone NC with her, now. I hope you can continue with that. That is the difference between your situation and Zanne's. She is still involved with her AP. Do I think she is all bad? No. Do I think you are all bad? No. But you are willing to, at least, make things right with God. And, I'm sorry to say, but as long as Zanne is continuing in her affair, she is not going to be able to be right with God. Sin separates us from God... And, no matter how it is colored, cheating is a sin. Yes, we can be forgiven, but that does NOT mean that you are free to continue an affair just because you asked God to fogive you, once. Jesus told the woman brought to Him because she was "caught in adultery" that He didn't condemn her... but what is the one thing many forget about that particular incident? He also said, "Go and sin no more." IOW, stop doing this.


But I don't think there is a limit to where god will no longer forgive.

Zanne is good to go. Just needs to ask for forgiveness in the end. 

Why do you think they bring in the priest when you are on your death bed?


----------



## Blondilocks

Why are you assuming everyone is Catholic? The majority of Protestants don't have a priest as a middleman to God.


----------



## Zanne

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't think it is a good thing.
> 
> Yes, everyone does bad things, but there are different levels of 'bad'.
> 
> If you knew you would go to hell for sleeping with a married woman, would you do it?
> 
> Throwing out the Christian card and asking for forgiveness is getting off too easy.


Wilderness is saying it is easy because the work has been done for us. But he also admits that he doesn't walk away completely free as far as how he hurt his relationship with God.

And to be honest, this is what I struggle with the most in my own life.


----------



## wilderness

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:40

It was nothing that I did, and I most certainly didn't and don't deserve it, either.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blondilocks said:


> Are you dismayed that sinners who are truly repentant are forgiven?


No. I may sound like it, but I am not. 

I am Christian. I believe in god. 

I have just seen too many people who claim to be Christian and religious continue to do bad things. Seems like people that quote scripture and who talk about sinning against god are the worst. 

People that say things like, "I sinned against God. I hope he can forgive me". 

I would be more sympathetic if I heard, "I sinned against that man. I slept with his wife. I need to make this right." God has nothing to do with it. God would be happier if you made right, not asked for forgiveness. 

God is bigger than that.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blondilocks said:


> Why are you assuming everyone is Catholic? The majority of Protestants don't have a priest as a middleman to God.


Oh yeah, so what is the punishment for Protestants when they ask for forgiveness?


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
> John 6:40


So now you are saying that all you need to do is believe in him. That what you do with your life doesn't matter?


----------



## Created2Write

techmom said:


> Where the heck is Blonde when you need her?
> 
> Seriously though, the best advice is coming from C2W, by far. I'm just watching and waiting. How can you fall into the mindset of a cheater Wilderness? How does that happen after all of your fire and brimstone posts on the boards regarding wayward wives? Do you feel the same hostility towards your lover? *How do you think her husband feels right now, as he has left his home because she stated that she does not love him anymore?* How are his wheels spinning trying to find out the reason for the loss of the love in their relationship? How do you feel about keeping him in the dark about what happened? He is in a very dark, lonesome place right now, and *you caused it or at least contributed to it.* How does the child feel, not having the dad he or she loves at home? *You are a part of this family's destruction.*


This is very true, and I'm not sure wilderness has gotten to a place of admitting this just yet. Would her marriage have fallen apart whether he was there or not? Maybe. We can never know that for sure. We _do_ know that he helped speed it up, at the very least.



> No amount of praying and fasting will help that husband and child out of the hell you helped create. You are this woman's exit strategy, her excuse to selfishly destroy her family and serve her own needs. And you support this, after all of your harsh and cruel posts to women who did the same thing.


This is also true. I don't think she cares two craps about him, or her husband for that matter. I think she's a manipulative, selfish person, and has been since she and the OP were first together.


----------



## Blondilocks

SadSamIAm said:


> Oh yeah, so what is the punishment for Protestants when they ask for forgiveness?


Their conscience.


----------



## Maricha75

SadSamIAm said:


> When I went to confession when I was 14 I was told to "say ten Hail Mary's".


I've never understood the purpose of praying to a dead woman, rather than to God. She can't do anything for anyone.

As for your post about deathbed confessions and priests... Sorry, we don't do that. A pastor and/or elders in the church may come in and anoint the person, if asked, but no deathbed confessions to a priest. The only one who can forgive/absolve sin is God. And, even when asking God to forgive, on your deathbed, God knows your heart. That's the key right there... GOD knows the heart. Not you, not me, not a priest, not a pastor. Only God knows. However, I don't understand the mentality of "I'll keep doing this and ask for forgiveness when I am dying." I don't understand why someone would do that. You don't know when you will die.


----------



## wilderness

SadSamIAm said:


> So now you are saying that all you need to do is believe in him. That what you do with your life doesn't matter?


Knock it off, dude. You know I'm a believer on Jesus Christ. You want to attack me, go ahead. I admit that I deserve it. I'm fair game. You want to attack my God, that's not cool. What exactly do you want me to do? I f'ed up. BAD. I cannot undue it. What I can do is not continue to repeat the same mistakes. That's what I'm trying to do. Maybe I can't 'make it right' but I surely can do is make it so I don't exacerbate the situation and make it even worse.

If you think it's easy not being able to sleep at night and not being able to look myself in the mirror, you haven't walked in my shoes is all that I have to say.


----------



## Created2Write

pidge70 said:


> You know what happens when you assume right?
> 
> Why wouldn't either one of them lie?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with pidge about the woman. She has every reason to lie. Absolutely every reason to lie and manipulate the OP. As for him, I don't think he's lying so much as refusing to admit the truth to himself. I think he's caught between what he wants, and what is actually right.


----------



## wilderness

Maricha75 said:


> I've never understood the purpose of praying to a dead woman, rather than to God. She can't do anything for anyone.
> 
> As for your post about deathbed confessions and priests... Sorry, we don't do that. A pastor and/or elders in the church may come in and anoint the person, if asked, but no deathbed confessions to a priest. The only one who can forgive/absolve sin is God. And, even when asking God to forgive, on your deathbed, God knows your heart. That's the key right there... GOD knows the heart. Not you, not me, not a priest, not a pastor. Only God knows. However, I don't understand the mentality of "I'll keep doing this and ask for forgiveness when I am dying." I don't understand why someone would do that. You don't know when you will die.


A thousand thanks are in order.


----------



## Maricha75

SadSamIAm said:


> So now you are saying that all you need to do is believe in him. That what you do with your life doesn't matter?


"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19

It's not enough to just believe. If it were, then Satan could be saved as well.


----------



## Created2Write

spinsterdurga said:


> With all due respect Zanne, are you projecting? He had sex with her, showed her that the grass was greener, claimed to be in love with her. Based on all of this how is he counseling her? If she needs a counselor why doesn't she find a certified and not her ex/AP


QFT. He has no business counseling her about anything. He's not an unbiased third party, he's had sex with this woman. He doesn't have her, or her family's, best interests in mind, he has his own wants in mind. He needs to NC for good, and forever.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Update: we have gone NC. Only thing I might do is send a link to nmmng /mmslp for the husband to try and win her back.


I wouldn't recommend this. If you're not going to admit your wrongs to him face to face, then you have no business contacting him at all. 

Clarifying question: what are your intentions with her from here on out? What are you doing to _stay_ NC with her?


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> I wouldn't recommend this. If you're not going to admit your wrongs to him face to face, then you have no business contacting him at all.
> 
> Clarifying question: what are your intentions with her from here on out? What are you doing to _stay_ NC with her?


Well I'm not really doing anything? What do you think I should I be doing? (not being a wise guy, honest question)


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> From the perspective of a former betrayed spouse, longevity is VERY relevant. Perhaps the _most_ relevant thing.


The point is that longevity doesn't make an affair, sexual or emotional connection does. A ONS while still married _is_ an affair.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> As to your example, the way that I see it, having sex outside of marriage 10x is 10x worse than having sex outside of marriage once. In other words, the more times it happens, the worse! This is the way that I feel from the betrayed spouse perspective. As such, I could probably forgive a ONS, but to forgive a long time affair- well maybe I could forgive it but no way could I remain married.
> 
> That's why a lot of times when a male BS finds out about the affair, the first question is "how many times did you fvck him?"


Biblically speaking, this isn't accurate. This is more justification for ones sinful actions, but in God's eyes there is no difference between 10 ONS and 1 ten year affair.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> Biblically speaking, this isn't accurate. This is more justification for ones sinful actions, but in God's eyes there is no difference between 10 ONS and 1 ten year affair.


Huh? You are saying that sinning once is just as harmful as sinning 100x? As an extreme example, if I had a ONS, you think that is a bad as having an affair for a year and having sex with another person 100x? 

Based on that logic once one has sex with AP, they might as well have sex with them for 10 years since it is no worse than having sex with them once.

I believe that you are wrong about this.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I can't sleep. Looking forward to the day I can look myself in the mirror again.


You've taken the first step toward the right thing: you've gone NC. Now, you need to _stay_ NC. Get yourself into some Christian therapy. You sinned, but you're making effort to do the right thing. Find someone to hold you accountable. 

Don't beat yourself up. You're going in the right direction.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> The point is that longevity doesn't make an affair, sexual or emotional connection does. A ONS while still married _is_ an affair.


I couldn't disagree with you more on this.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I was so angry with her for so long, I didn't realize what was _underneath_ the anger. These overwhelming feelings of sadness, regret, despair, rejection, shame, love, etc…it's like they were trapped by my anger. Once I was no longer angry at her, once I released it, it was like a flood of emotion overwhelmed the levy.
> 
> Things that happened 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago and now it feels like they just happened yesterday. I can't believe how much was buried inside of me, more than I ever knew. They say time heals all wounds but these wounds have not healed. It doesn't feel like they'll ever heal.
> 
> Anger is just a _mask_. And I wore that mask, it's name is denial, for many years. Now it's gone and all that is left is raw skin.


I got a Christian counselor to help me through my grief over a recent loss. Although it hurts like hell, getting all of the emotions out from what I buried them under, I am healing now because I allowed myself to work through them. 

Find a counselor. Deal with these emotions, these issues. Don't let them fester.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> The one I sinned against _is _God.


Yes and no. You sinned against God first, but you also sinned against the woman you had sex with(and her family), her husband(and his family), her child, and yourself.


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## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> Yes and no. You sinned against God first, but you also sinned against the woman you had sex with(and her family), her husband(and his family), her child, and yourself.


Right, it's true. Plus everyone else that will be disappointed in my actions, or anyone else that may have heard the gospel from me but might not now because of what I've done. It's like dropping a boulder into an ocean of negativity and shame.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Well I'm not really doing anything? What do you think I should I be doing? (not being a wise guy, honest question)


She may attempt to contact you in future. I recommend blocking her on your email, FB(if you have one), blocking her phone number(if that can be done)...do what you can to make sure she can't reach out to you at all. And find an accountability partner to make sure you don't contact her, either.


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> Knock it off, dude. You know I'm a believer on Jesus Christ. You want to attack me, go ahead. I admit that I deserve it. I'm fair game. You want to attack my God, that's not cool. What exactly do you want me to do? I f'ed up. BAD. I cannot undue it. What I can do is not continue to repeat the same mistakes. That's what I'm trying to do. Maybe I can't 'make it right' but I surely can do is make it so I don't exacerbate the situation and make it even worse.
> 
> If you think it's easy not being able to sleep at night and not being able to look myself in the mirror, you haven't walked in my shoes is all that I have to say.


So why haven't you answered the question about when NC is going to stop? 

I am sure that you have a plan with the cheater you are involved with. 

Why not share that plan? 

Maybe you can't sleep at night because GOD knows your plan!!!


----------



## Blondilocks

wilderness said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more on this.


That's because you won't allow yourself to believe that what you did to your ex-wife is as bad as what she did to you. You can play your numbers game 'til you're blue in the face but the fact remains you cheated.

Now, will you please *GET OFF THE DAMN CROSS*! You're not not not an innocent victim.


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## wilderness

Blondilocks said:


> That's because you won't allow yourself to believe that what you did to your ex-wife is as bad as what she did to you. You can play your numbers game 'til you're blue in the face but the fact remains you cheated.
> 
> Now, will you please *GET OFF THE DAMN CROSS*! You're not not not an innocent victim.


She had me falsely imprisoned! She's falsely accused my whole family! She's lied to court officials, judges, on court paperwork, and she's tried to permanently separate me from my child. She had sex with OM _and refused to stop having sex with him._ You'd better believe what she did to me was objectively worse than what I did to her. It's not even close.


----------



## SadSamIAm

> :
> Originally Posted by Created2Write View Post
> The point is that longevity doesn't make an affair, sexual or emotional connection does. A ONS while still married is an affair.
> I couldn't disagree with you more on this.





wilderness said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more on this.


Who would GOD disagree with?


----------



## wilderness

SadSamIAm said:


> So why haven't you answered the question about when NC is going to stop?
> 
> I am sure that you have a plan with the cheater you are involved with.
> 
> Why not share that plan?
> 
> Maybe you can't sleep at night because GOD knows your plan!!!


I don't have a plan. I'm taking it day by day. But I certainly need one.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Huh? You are saying that sinning once is just as harmful as sinning 100x?


Yes. One sin is more than enough to separate us from God. 



> As an extreme example, if I had a ONS, you think that is a bad as having an affair for a year and having sex with another person 100x?


Humans are the ones who apply value to sin: we see murder as worse than lying, or having an affair for a year as being worse than a ONS. The fact is that God doesn't see a difference. Sin is sin. A ONS is just as bad as a one year affair. 



> Based on that logic once one has sex with AP, they might as well have sex with them for 10 years since it is no worse than having sex with them once.
> 
> I believe that you are wrong about this.


No, you're just not getting the point. One sin doesn't justify sinning even more. _In God's eyes_ there's no such thing as a sin that is worse than another(except for the Unpardonable Sin). Let me put it this way: if the only sin you ever committed were a ONS, it would be more than enough to separate you from God. There is no value to sin, you can't grade them on what is more or less "wrong". Some sins will cause more harm than others, but from God's perspective, there's no such thing as an affair being worse than a ONS.


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## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more on this.


You should read the Bible more often, then. You can't pick and choose which truths you're going to accept if you're claiming to believe in Christ.


----------



## Maricha75

wilderness said:


> Huh? You are saying that sinning once is just as harmful as sinning 100x? As an extreme example, if I had a ONS, you think that is a bad as having an affair for a year and having sex with another person 100x?
> 
> Based on that logic once one has sex with AP, they might as well have sex with them for 10 years since it is no worse than having sex with them once.
> 
> I believe that you are wrong about this.


Actually, she is correct. It doesn't matter if you only did it once or 1000 times. If you don't ask for forgiveness, they are on equal level, to God. One sin, not confessed and forgiven, is equal to another... no matter how many times it was committed. What CHANGES things is God, and His forgiveness. Put it this way.... a ONS from 20 years ago, if not confessed and ask for forgiveness, is not forgiven. A 5 year affair from the last 5 years, if confessed and you ask to be forgiven, IS forgiven. And even that ONE thing, not confessed and forgiven, will separate us from God.... even if we have done so with all other things we have done.


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> I don't have a plan. I'm taking it day by day. But I certainly need one.


When she asked you if you would be there for her when she files for divorce, what did you tell her?

Remember, God is listening!!!


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Right, it's true. Plus everyone else that will be disappointed in my actions, or anyone else that may have heard the gospel from me but might not now because of what I've done. It's like dropping a boulder into an ocean of negativity and shame.


You admitted your wrong to us, though. You admitted your wrong to the woman you had sex with. Have you admitted your wrong to her husband? Have you asked for his forgiveness?


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> She had me falsely imprisoned! She's falsely accused my whole family! She's lied to court officials, judges, on court paperwork, and she's tried to permanently separate me from my child. She had sex with OM _and refused to stop having sex with him._ You'd better believe what she did to me was objectively worse than what I did to her. It's not even close.


Correction: the _harm_ she caused you was objectively worse. But, in God's eyes, you are both the same: sinners who wronged their spouses.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> Yes. One sin is more than enough to separate us from God.
> 
> 
> 
> Humans are the ones who apply value to sin: we see murder as worse than lying, or having an affair for a year as being worse than a ONS. The fact is that God doesn't see a difference. Sin is sin. A ONS is just as bad as a one year affair.
> 
> 
> 
> No, you're just not getting the point. One sin doesn't justify sinning even more. _In God's eyes_ there's no such thing as a sin that is worse than another(except for the Unpardonable Sin). Let me put it this way: if the only sin you ever committed were a ONS, it would be more than enough to separate you from God. There is no value to sin, you can't grade them on what is more or less "wrong". Some sins will cause more harm than others, but from God's perspective, there's no such thing as an affair being worse than a ONS.


Well I agree with you but I disagree with you. I think in a sense you are conflating the points (i.e.- murder is as unlawful as lying vs. committing multiple acts of the same sin). I can tell you absolutely that from the POV of certain betrayed spouses, like me, the more times one has sex with OP, the worse. Maybe this is the worldly perspective but I certainly believe that it needs to be considered in the context of my situation.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Maricha75 said:


> I've never understood the purpose of praying to a dead woman, rather than to God. She can't do anything for anyone.
> 
> As for your post about deathbed confessions and priests... Sorry, we don't do that. A pastor and/or elders in the church may come in and anoint the person, if asked, but no deathbed confessions to a priest. The only one who can forgive/absolve sin is God. And, even when asking God to forgive, on your deathbed, God knows your heart. That's the key right there... GOD knows the heart. Not you, not me, not a priest, not a pastor. Only God knows. However, I don't understand the mentality of "I'll keep doing this and ask for forgiveness when I am dying." I don't understand why someone would do that. You don't know when you will die.


I like how you say this. "God knows your heart". 

That is why I don't talk about religion or bring up scripture. I don't think God cares. God is deeper than that. He knows what is in your heart.

There are many people in this world that are not aware of God. They were brought up by parents that don't have faith or have a faith that doesn't include God. All of these people will never pray to God. They will never ask for forgiveness. 

Are they going to Hell? Of course not. God is greater than that. 

I have a daughter that doesn't believe in God. She talks about science. I talk about faith. Neither of us 'know' for sure. But my faith is strong enough to not worry about her. I know that she is good. She always does the right things. She is a kind person. She is thinking of becoming a Social Worker. God will see her for who she is, not what she might believe in.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> Correction: the _harm_ she caused you was objectively worse. But, in God's eyes, you are both the same: sinners who wronged their spouses.


I'm not sure you are correct about this. And even if you are, I don't think the point is relevant. To me it's just excusing bad behavior. For example, can you imagine a husband who got caught in a 10 year affair telling his wife "but you lied to me 5 years ago, therefore you are the same as me!". 

And on the flip side I'm not sure how much value there is in the wife being convinced that her one lie is as bad as her husband's 10 year affair.

Degree of harm _matters_, imo.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Well I agree with you but I disagree with you. I think in a sense you are conflating the points (i.e.- murder is as unlawful as lying vs. committing multiple acts of the same sin). I can tell you absolutely that from the POV of certain betrayed spouses, like me, the more times one has sex with OP, the worse. Maybe this is the worldly perspective but I certainly believe that it needs to be considered in the context of my situation.


You're confusing the _harm_ you were caused by being continually betrayed, with the value of the actual actions. A ten year affair is probably going to cause more harm than a ONS. But, as for the actions and which is worse, in God's eyes, there is no difference.


----------



## DoF

wilderness said:


> She had me falsely imprisoned! She's falsely accused my whole family! She's lied to court officials, judges, on court paperwork, and she's tried to permanently separate me from my child. She had sex with OM _and refused to stop having sex with him._ You'd better believe what she did to me was objectively worse than what I did to her. It's not even close.


And after all that you got into bed with her.

:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:

Just the act itself makes you a much lower/worse human being than her. I'm sorry.


----------



## Blondilocks

Wilderness, perhaps you can consider that your ex-wife did you a favor by exposing you to any STDs of only one affair partner. As opposed to your exposing her to those of multiple partners. Want to run your numbers game, now?


----------



## Zanne

SadSamIAm said:


> I like how you say this. "God knows your heart".
> 
> That is why I don't talk about religion or bring up scripture. I don't think God cares. God is deeper than that. He knows what is in your heart.
> 
> There are many people in this world that are not aware of God. They were brought up by parents that don't have faith or have a faith that doesn't include God. All of these people will never pray to God. They will never ask for forgiveness.
> 
> Are they going to Hell? Of course not. God is greater than that.
> 
> I have a daughter that doesn't believe in God. She talks about science. I talk about faith. Neither of us 'know' for sure. But my faith is strong enough to not worry about her. I know that she is good. She always does the right things. She is a kind person. She is thinking of becoming a Social Worker. God will see her for who she is, not what she might believe in.


Good point, except I believe God has a greater purpose for us and we shouldn't be comfortable in our faith, but always growing.


----------



## wilderness

DoF said:


> And after all that you got into bed with her.
> 
> :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:
> 
> Just the act itself makes you a much lower/worse human being than her. I'm sorry.


No, you are confusing the 2 exes.


----------



## DoF

wilderness said:


> No, you are confusing the 2 exes.


oops, sorry


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I'm not sure you are correct about this. And even if you are, I don't think the point is relevant. To me it's just excusing bad behavior. For example, can you imagine a husband who got caught in a 10 year affair telling his wife "but you lied to me 5 years ago, therefore you are the same as me!".


It's not excusing bad behavior. It's about seeing thing from God's perspective, rather than our own. You made the comment that your wife was worse than you(justifying your ONSs), which is why I brought all of this up. Because, while the harm you went through from her betrayal was worse than her harm from your betrayal, it's nonsense to insist that you didn't betray her. In God's eyes, you did. To be truly repentant, you need to stop trying to justify your actions. I guarantee you no moral human being on the planet will agree with you that your ONSs weren't an act of cheating. 



> And on the flip side I'm not sure how much value there is in the wife being convinced that her one lie is as bad as her husband's 10 year affair.
> 
> Degree of harm _matters_, imo.


It's not about convincing anyone of anything. It's about being able to stand blameless before God. I only brought this up to show you that, while your wife's actions were awful, _yours_ weren't innocent. You both betrayed each other in God's eyes. If you really wanted to be repentant, you wouldn't be so defensive. 

And, actually, _you're_ the one trying to excuse bad behavior by insisting that committing adultery _wasn't_ a betrayal in your relationship, and by insisting that your wife's actions were worse. Were her actions more extreme? Yes, I think so. Did she cause you more harm? Yes. But you both betrayed each other.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> It's not excusing bad behavior. It's about seeing thing from God's perspective, rather than our own. You made the comment that your wife was worse than you(justifying your ONSs), which is why I brought all of this up. Because, while the harm you went through from her betrayal was worse than her harm from your betrayal, it's nonsense to insist that you didn't betray her. In God's eyes, you did. To be truly repentant, you need to stop trying to justify your actions. I guarantee you no moral human being on the planet will agree with you that your ONSs weren't an act of cheating.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about convincing anyone of anything. It's about being able to stand blameless before God. I only brought this up to show you that, while your wife's actions were awful, _yours_ weren't innocent. You both betrayed each other in God's eyes. If you really wanted to be repentant, you wouldn't be so defensive.
> 
> And, actually, _you're_ the one trying to excuse bad behavior by insisting that committing adultery _wasn't_ a betrayal in your relationship, and by insisting that your wife's actions were worse. Were her actions more extreme? Yes, I think so. Did she cause you more harm? Yes. But you both betrayed each other.


Yes, you are right. I definitely betrayed her. In other ways, too. Not just sexually. Honestly I was a pretty lousy husband but a very good father.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Yes, you are right. I definitely betrayed her. In other ways, too. Not just sexually. Honestly I was a pretty lousy husband but a very good father.


While you can't change your previous actions, you _can_ change your present and future actions.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> I don't have a plan. I'm taking it day by day. But I certainly need one.


This is exactly why everyone has been asking you, *"NC for how long?"*

I'm sorry that I can't counsel you as someone who has not successfully done this herself. But the way that you stated it when you announced you were NC caught my eye. It was too illusive. You did not list any safeguards and you know what those are since you've been here long enough.

So, do you feel you are strong enough on your own without doing some of the things suggested such as blocking her number, etc.? It's just you to hold yourself accountable. No suspicious spouse of your own to check your accounts, etc.

This is the real test. I would love to hear how you pass it. And I truly hope you will.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Zanne said:


> Good point, except I believe God has a greater purpose for us and we shouldn't be comfortable in our faith, but always growing.


I think God has a greater purpose for mankind. For each of us individually .... not so much.

If you are looking to God to find your purpose then you are wasting your time. 

That is on you. You decide right and wrong. When you screw up (which we all do) you make it right by dealing with it, not by asking God for help.

If God is watching Wilderness I am sure he would be saying ...

"Why are you not eating? Why are you praying to me? What do you want me to do? Go and tell the man that you slept with his wife. Tell him that you are very sorry and that you will stay away from his family FOREVER. Make it right. Don't ask me to forgive you for it."


----------



## Zanne

SadSamIAm said:


> I think God has a greater purpose for mankind. For each of us individually .... not so much.
> 
> If you are looking to God to find your purpose then you are wasting your time.
> 
> That is on you. You decide right and wrong. When you screw up (which we all do) you make it right by dealing with it, not by asking God for help.
> 
> If God is watching Wilderness I am sure he would be saying ...
> 
> "Why are you not eating? Why are you praying to me? What do you want me to do? Go and tell the man that you slept with his wife. Tell him that you are very sorry and that you will stay away from his family FOREVER. Make it right. Don't ask me to forgive you for it."


I get what you are saying. I don't mean greater purpose in life as in, improve yourself and position in life, etc. but to become more aware of who we are in Christ, to be able to see ourselves as He sees us.


----------



## Created2Write

Wilderness, what are your plans with the woman? Are you going NC for good?


----------



## Maricha75

SadSamIAm said:


> I like how you say this. "God knows your heart".
> 
> That is why I don't talk about religion or bring up scripture. I don't think God cares. God is deeper than that. He knows what is in your heart.
> 
> There are many people in this world that are not aware of God. They were brought up by parents that don't have faith or have a faith that doesn't include God. All of these people will never pray to God. They will never ask for forgiveness.
> 
> Are they going to Hell? Of course not. God is greater than that.
> 
> I have a daughter that doesn't believe in God. She talks about science.  I talk about faith. Neither of us 'know' for sure. But my faith is strong enough to not worry about her. I know that she is good. She always does the right things. She is a kind person. She is thinking of becoming a Social Worker. God will see her for who she is, not what she might believe in.


Yes, God DOES know what is in our hearts. He also gave us His word to guide us. And in His word, it states there is only one Way... Now, someone may say they don't believe, but in their heart, they feel that tug... and they come to believe, even if they haven't spoken outwardly that they do. Ya know? But if they truly do NOT believe, and follow Him.... it doesn't matter how much good they do. God must be present in their lives.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> Wilderness, what are your plans with the woman? Are you going NC for good?


I'll be honest I don't have a plan yet. I'm taking it day by day as of now.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Maricha75 said:


> Yes, God DOES know what is in our hearts. He also gave us His word to guide us. And in His word, it states there is only one Way... Now, someone may say they don't believe, but in their heart, they feel that tug... and they come to believe, even if they haven't spoken outwardly that they do. Ya know? But if they truly do NOT believe, and follow Him.... it doesn't matter how much good they do. God must be present in their lives.


So what happens to those that have no knowledge of God? 

Many people in the world are not christian. What happens to them?

I think God is in everyones life whether you believe in him or not.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I'll be honest I don't have a plan yet. I'm taking it day by day as of now.


I don't want to be pushy, but you _need_ a plan. Do you plan to go to counseling? Perhaps a recovery group? Do you have someone to hold you accountable? Have you been reading the Bible and studying Christ's commandments? I highly recommend the Gospels, Galatians, Ephesians, and the Corinthians.


----------



## Created2Write

SadSamIAm said:


> So what happens to those that have no knowledge of God?
> 
> Many people in the world are not christian. What happens to them?
> 
> I think God is in everyones life whether you believe in him or not.


This is the part a lot of people have an issue with, but God looks at the heart. The Bible says that without Christ, there is no salvation. If someone hasn't heard the Gospel before, I believe God examines their heart. But for those who have heard the Gospel and don't accept Christ, the Bible makes it clear what the consequences are.


----------



## pidge70

Created2Write said:


> This is the part a lot of people have an issue with, but God looks at the heart. The Bible says that without Christ, there is no salvation. If someone hasn't heard the Gospel before, I believe God examines their heart. But for those who have heard the Gospel and don't accept Christ, the Bible makes it clear what the consequences are.


Well, I'm screwed.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> I don't want to be pushy, but you _need_ a plan. Do you plan to go to counseling? Perhaps a recovery group? Do you have someone to hold you accountable? Have you been reading the Bible and studying Christ's commandments? I highly recommend the Gospels, Galatians, Ephesians, and the Corinthians.


I plan on telling the leader of my bible study group. I great man of God, a friend, a leader, someone I trust more than anyone in the world. I was going to tell him yesterday but bible study was cancelled. I also plan on telling the Pastor that attends the bible study group. Another great man. Someone that will be very disappointed in me as he wants me to be a leader of men. I also need to join a new church. That's part of my plan. I will attend services Sunday and make up my mind about a particular church.

I love the word of God and I try to read everyday. Most recently I have been reading Judges. Also a little of Matthew.

And of course I love the gospel of John. I've been thinking of studying 1 and 2 Peter again for whatever reason it's been on my heart as well.

Thank you for your help. I pray that God brings me through. And of course the ladies family that I wronged.


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## turnera

So a Hindu or a Muslem person who's read the Bible but stays in his religion...?


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## Maricha75

Created2Write said:


> This is the part a lot of people have an issue with, but God looks at the heart. The Bible says that without Christ, there is no salvation. If someone hasn't heard the Gospel before, I believe God examines their heart. But for those who have heard the Gospel and don't accept Christ, the Bible makes it clear what the consequences are.


Exactly! And, believe it or not, there are many Christians who have issue with this as well. I have stated before that there will be no Baptists in Heaven... Nor will there be Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Adventists, nor any other denomination. Do you know how indignant many get when you say something like that??? But it's true! There will be no denominations, only God's children.


----------



## Maricha75

turnera said:


> So a Hindu or a Muslem person who's read the Bible but stays in his religion...?


"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6


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## wilderness

Maricha75 said:


> "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6


My favorite scripture in the whole world.


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## turnera

That answered nothing. Someone from another religion who believes in God, just not Jesus...he won't go to heaven? How hypocritical.


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## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> I'll be honest I don't have a plan yet. I'm taking it day by day as of now.


Full marks for honesty. 

Failing marks for not having a plan. You know what is right.


----------



## Blondilocks

pidge70 said:


> Well, I'm screwed.


No, you aren't. There are many paths to the Lord. Christians have chosen the path of Christ. Muslims have chosen the path of Mohammed and so forth. 

The Bible was written by men and revised by men many, many times. 

It would be arrogant of me to assume God sent forth only one prophet to show his people the way. I would not want my eyes shielded from the miracles and glories of God regardless if they were performed by non-Christians.


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## Created2Write

The God of the Bible is not Buddha, or any of the Hindu God's, or Allah. He's not one God that goes by many different names. He's specifically the God of the Bible, whose son is Jesus Christ. According to the Bible, there is no other way to heaven. Since I identify as a Christian, I have to accept that as truth, though I may not understand it. If it's hypocritical for me to be consistent, and accept the entire Bible since it's the faith I identify as, then so be it.


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
> John 6:40
> 
> It was nothing that I did, and I most certainly didn't and don't deserve it, either.


What is your point with this?

Nothing that you did?



You actively took your clothes off and had sex with a married woman. She said she was having troubles in her marriage and rather than do the righteous thing, you took your clothes off and fvcked her (your words)
And now you are lusting in your heart and coveting another man's wife.
You claim no contact...NOW.
But you are still lusting in your heart.

Ya know, I'm also curious as to bringing all this up THIS WEEK.

There are a whole bunch of people that only go to church on Easter and Christmas.


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## SadSamIAm

Created2Write said:


> This is the part a lot of people have an issue with, but God looks at the heart. The Bible says that without Christ, there is no salvation. If someone hasn't heard the Gospel before, I believe God examines their heart. But for those who have heard the Gospel and don't accept Christ, the Bible makes it clear what the consequences are.


What happens to the person that is 18 years old, that has always been taught that there is a God, but refuses to believe it? They live a good life, help many people and accomplish many things. Never hurting anyone!

My God would not punish someone like that.


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> That answered nothing. Someone from another religion who believes in God, just not Jesus...he won't go to heaven?


Yes, that is correct. Please allow me to explain. Anyone that believes on a God that is not the Father of Jesus Christ believes on a _false_ God.

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"
John 14:9

As Jesus said:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6

"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
I John 4:3

Human nature, the flesh, has been corrupted by Adam's sin in the garden of Eden. Death reigned by one man, Adam. But _life _reigns through a man, Jesus, that was born of a virgin, _*lived a sinless life*_, died on the cross as a ransom for many, was resurrected by the heavenly father, and ascended to the right hand of the Father after his resurrection.

Death could not hold him. He overcame sin. He overcame the enemy. He lives. He reigns. Glory and honor forever to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.


----------



## Unique Username

Created2Write said:


> The God of the Bible is not Buddha, or any of the Hindu God's, or Allah. He's not one God that goes by many different names. He's specifically the God of the Bible, whose son is Jesus Christ. According to the Bible, there is no other way to heaven. Since I identify as a Christian, I have to accept that as truth, though I may not understand it. If it's hypocritical for me to be consistent, and accept the entire Bible since it's the faith I identify as, then so be it.


And millions of people have been slaughtered throughout the ages with this thinking.

Each feeling that their god is the ONLY god...don't follow my beliefs and you are damned.

Well, except for Buddhists and Quakers and Shakers - who are pacifists.


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## Unique Username

Anyone know what Scientologists views are on this?

I don't, I'd like to know.


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> What is your point with this?
> 
> Nothing that you did?
> 
> 
> 
> You actively took your clothes off and had sex with a married woman. She said she was having troubles in her marriage and rather than do the righteous thing, you took your clothes off and fvcked her (your words)
> And now you are lusting in your heart and coveting another man's wife.
> You claim no contact...NOW.
> But you are still lusting in your heart.
> 
> Ya know, I'm also curious as to bringing all this up THIS WEEK.
> 
> There are a whole bunch of people that only go to church on Easter and Christmas.


Yes, I messed up and had sex with a married woman. If that taints me forever in your eyes, why post on my thread? To make me pay? 

How you do you know that I'm lusting in my heart for her? You do not know me, nor do you have any idea the desires of my heart.


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> I plan on telling the leader of my bible study group. I great man of God, a friend, a leader, someone I trust more than anyone in the world. I was going to tell him yesterday but bible study was cancelled. I also plan on telling the Pastor that attends the bible study group. Another great man. Someone that will be very disappointed in me as he wants me to be a leader of men. I also need to join a new church. That's part of my plan. I will attend services Sunday and make up my mind about a particular church.


Why change clubs?


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## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> Anyone know what Scientologists views are on this?
> 
> I don't, I'd like to know.


I believe that scientologists believe on a false God.
Edit to add: I am not 100% sure of this, for the record.


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## wilderness

SadSamIAm said:


> Why change clubs?


I'm not. I don't have a church presently. Long story, my last church let me down.


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## SadSamIAm

Maricha75 said:


> Exactly! And, believe it or not, there are many Christians who have issue with this as well. I have stated before that there will be no Baptists in Heaven... Nor will there be Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Adventists, nor any other denomination. Do you know how indignant many get when you say something like that??? But it's true! There will be no denominations, only God's children.


What about non christians? 

Do you truly believe that God would leave out most of the planet?


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## Created2Write

SadSamIAm said:


> What happens to the person that is 18 years old, that has always been taught that there is a God, but refuses to believe it? They live a good life, help many people and accomplish many things. Never hurting anyone!
> 
> My God would not punish someone like that.


I don't believe that "being a good person" is a sufficient enough reason to go to heaven, because "good" is entirely ambiguous. I want something that is clear cut, universal. Basing salvation on good deeds would cause me to live my life in fear. How much "good" is enough? How much isn't? My God is consistent. Harsh, yes, but consistent.

No matter how good someone is, they still sin, and sin separates us from God. My God sent His Son to die for those sins, so if I refuse to accept His solution, I should suffer the consequences. Do I understand why things are that way? No, I readily admit that I don't. But I don't believe in picking and choosing the things I like and the things I don't, and calling that faith.


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## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> I don't believe that "being a good person" is a sufficient enough reason to go to heaven, because "good" is entirely ambiguous. I want something that is clear cut, universal. Basing salvation on good deeds would cause me to live my life in fear. How much "good" is enough? How much isn't? My God is consistent. Harsh, yes, but consistent.
> 
> No matter how good someone is, they still sin, and sin separates us from God. My God sent His Son to die for those sins, so if I refuse to accept His solution, I should suffer the consequences. Do I understand why things are that way? No, I readily admit that I don't. But I don't believe in picking and choosing the things I like and the things I don't, and calling that faith.


"No, not one."


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## turnera

wilderness said:


> Yes, that is correct. Please allow me to explain. Anyone that believes on a God that is not the Father of Jesus Christ believes on a _false_ God.


:rofl:

Says the _Christians_!

I bet the Muslems are all saying the exact same thing about YOUR stuff!

And the Buddhists are all sitting over to the side and ignoring all the hooplah and living good lives...

:lol:


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## Created2Write

Unique Username said:


> And millions of people have been slaughtered throughout the ages with this thinking.
> 
> Each feeling that their god is the ONLY god...don't follow my beliefs and you are damned.
> 
> Well, except for Buddhists and Quakers and Shakers - who are pacifists.


You're exactly right. The Crusades and Hitler come to mind, as massive amounts of people were slaughtered, supposedly in the name of Christ. It's one part of Christian history that utterly taints our faith, and is something I have a major issue reconciling myself to. All I can say, is _I_ don't believe in what they did, and I don't believe God condoned their actions either.


----------



## Blondilocks

Created2Write said:


> The God of the Bible is not Buddha, or any of the Hindu God's, or Allah. He's not one God that goes by many different names. He's specifically the God of the Bible, whose son is Jesus Christ. According to the Bible, there is no other way to heaven. Since I identify as a Christian, I have to accept that as truth, though I may not understand it. If it's hypocritical for me to be consistent, and accept the entire Bible since it's the faith I identify as, then so be it.


No one is implying you're being hypocritical. You're being faithful to the New Testament. As you know, the Old Testament refers to God as Jehovah. It's a matter of literal versus liberal interpretation of the scriptures.


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## turnera

Created2Write said:


> I don't believe that "being a good person" is a sufficient enough reason to go to heaven, because "good" is entirely ambiguous. I want something that is clear cut, universal. Basing salvation on good deeds would cause me to live my life in fear. How much "good" is enough? How much isn't? My God is consistent. Harsh, yes, but consistent.


What about all the people who lived and died before Jesus was born? They all went to hell cos their timing was off?


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## wilderness

turnera said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Says the _Christians_!
> 
> I bet the Muslems are all saying the exact same thing about YOUR stuff!
> 
> And the Buddhists are all sitting over to the side and ignoring all the hooplah and living good lives...
> 
> :lol:


Well only one of us is right. I wouldn't bet against Jesus Christ, is all I have to say on that.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Says the _Christians_!
> 
> I bet the Muslems are all saying the exact same thing about YOUR stuff!
> 
> And the Buddhists are all sitting over to the side and ignoring all the hooplah and living good lives...
> 
> :lol:


They could be. Why should this matter to us? It's not faith if the beliefs of others, or the mockery of a stranger on a message board, is enough to dissuade me from my beliefs. And while you may not agree, it's really immature to mock someone else's beliefs.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> You're exactly right. The Crusades and Hitler come to mind, as massive amounts of people were slaughtered, supposedly in the name of Christ. It's one part of Christian history that utterly taints our faith, and is something I have a major issue reconciling myself to. All I can say, is _I_ don't believe in what they did, and I don't believe God condoned their actions either.


No way. It doesn't utterly taint our faith. First of all, I don't believe a damn thing that any of the history books say. History is written by the winners. Second, anybody can _say_ they are a Christian. Again, it's about the heart. Can Christians do murder? I don't know, but I highly doubt they can do mass murder after believing on Jesus Christ. I can barely sleep at night just from sleeping with a married woman.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> What about all the people who lived and died before Jesus was born? They all went to hell cos their timing was off?


It depends. From my understanding, before Christ came they(people) had to make sacrifices to God for their sins. If He accepted it, and burned in on the altar, then they were forgiven. If He didn't accept it, then I think it meant there was something wrong with the sacrifice. (Cain) There were also things the Priests would do that had to do with the forgiveness of sins, I'm not really clear on a lot of it. (I don't know a lot about Old Testament Jewish customs) I would have to read more about the Jewish law to better answer this question.


----------



## turnera

Created2Write said:


> They could be. Why should this matter to us? It's not faith if the beliefs of others, or the mockery of a stranger on a message board, is enough to dissuade me from my beliefs. And while you may not agree, it's really immature to mock someone else's beliefs.


IDK, I think it's immature to tell me I'm going to Hell if I don't believe yours.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> No way. It doesn't utterly taint our faith. First of all, I don't believe a damn thing that any of the history books say. History is written by the winners. Second, anybody can _say_ they are a Christian. Again, it's about the heart. Can Christians do murder? I don't know, but I highly doubt they can do mass murder after believing on Jesus Christ. I can barely sleep at night just from sleeping with a married woman.


You think all this was made up?
Crusades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Blondilocks

Wilderness, you say believing 'on' rather than 'in'. Curious. Why?


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> Well only one of us is right. I wouldn't bet against Jesus Christ, is all I have to say on that.


But billions of people on earth do just that.


----------



## wilderness

Blondilocks said:


> Wilderness, you say believing 'on' rather than 'in'. Curious. Why?


I'm not really sure the difference to be honest. The King James version, I believe, uses 'believing on' a few times. For some reason I've always liked it better.


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> But billions of people on earth do just that.


I don't know why. I don't understand the big picture. Probably only God does. But I preach the Kingdom of God. And I know that Jesus Christ is real. And I know He is no liar. And I know because I've lived it.


----------



## Maricha75

SadSamIAm said:


> What about non christians?
> 
> Do you truly believe that God would leave out most of the planet?


As has been stated before... as a Christian, I believe there is only One Way... through Christ, who died for our sins. And those who hear His word and choose to reject it, yes, I do believe they will not go to Heaven. How can one be happy in a place with Someone in whom they don't believe? :scratchhead:


----------



## SadSamIAm

Created2Write said:


> They could be. Why should this matter to us? It's not faith if the beliefs of others, or the mockery of a stranger on a message board, is enough to dissuade me from my beliefs. And while you may not agree, it's really immature to mock someone else's beliefs.


I think it is arrogant to believe that your beliefs are correct and others are not. Nobody knows.

You can call it faith, or anything you want, but you might be wrong. 

I believe in A GOD. I know that! That there is something bigger out there that created the world. I have that much faith. 

I am not arrogant enough to believe that anyone that doesn't believe in the correct God is going to hell.

If the world ends tomorrow and the only bus that shows up is for all the Buddhists, I will be the first to say, "Hey let me on that bus! I'm a good guy!"


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> No way. It doesn't utterly taint our faith. First of all, I don't believe a damn thing that any of the history books say. History is written by the winners.


You don't have to believe it, but it's been proven by multiple historic sources. And yes, it does taint our faith because it makes Christ out to be a horrible, murderous Savior. Which He isn't. 



> Second, anybody can _say_ they are a Christian. Again, it's about the heart. Can Christians do murder? I don't know, but I highly doubt they can do mass murder after believing on Jesus Christ. I can barely sleep at night just from sleeping with a married woman.


You'd be surprised. King Henry VIII of England, who lived in the 1500's, professed to love Christ, and he _actively_ committed adultery; he even secretly and unlawfully married one of his mistresses while still married to his first wife, whom he divorced only after marrying his mistress; then he unlawfully executed his second wife so he could marry his third, after declaring himself the head of the Church of England; then, when she died and he married a fourth time, he committed adultery many times with a woman who was much, much younger than he, and divorced his fourth wife to make his new mistress his fifth, all while claiming to follow Christ. He was constantly making promises he didn't keep, and he had many professing Christians burned merely because they were Protestant, rather than Catholic. Then he had Catholics burned because they wouldn't recognize him as the head of the Church of England. 

I say all of that to say this: you may not believe that He genuinely believed in Christ, but according to numerous historical sources who worked along side him and knew him, he was a man of strong spiritual convictions, even though people often disagreed with the direction those convictions lead him. Where you _are_ right, however, is that God knows the heart. And I think that applies to people who profess Christianity, and those who don't.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> IDK, I think it's immature to tell me I'm going to Hell if I don't believe yours.


You are entitled to that belief.


----------



## wilderness

SadSamIAm said:


> I think it is arrogant to believe that your beliefs are correct and others are not. Nobody knows.
> 
> You can call it faith, or anything you want, but you might be wrong.
> 
> I believe in A GOD. I know that! That there is something bigger out there that created the world. I have that much faith.
> 
> I am not arrogant enough to believe that anyone that doesn't believe in the correct God is going to hell.
> 
> If the world ends tomorrow and the only bus that shows up is for all the Buddhists, I will be the first to say, "Hey let me on that bus! I'm a good guy!"


The operative question is WHICH God do you believe in?


----------



## SadSamIAm

Maricha75 said:


> As has been stated before... as a Christian, I believe there is only One Way... through Christ, who died for our sins. And those who hear His word and choose to reject it, yes, I do believe they will not go to Heaven.


That is OK! I have you covered, because the God I believe in won't punish you if you are wrong. 



> How can one be happy in a place with Someone in whom they don't believe? :scratchhead:


To be honest, I have never felt his presence. But I have talked (prayed) to him (or her) and have felt that he has listened to me.

My happiness is not up to God, it is up to me.


----------



## Created2Write

SadSamIAm said:


> I think it is arrogant to believe that your beliefs are correct and others are not. Nobody knows.
> 
> You can call it faith, or anything you want, but you might be wrong.


I might be. I might not be. 



> I believe in A GOD. I know that! That there is something bigger out there that created the world. I have that much faith.
> 
> I am not arrogant enough to believe that anyone that doesn't believe in the correct God is going to hell.


What you call arrogance, I call order. There have to be consequences to our decisions. I don't believe that _everyone_ should go to heaven, so how does your God decide who does and doesn't go to heaven? Is Hitler in heaven? What about Charles Manson? What about Osama Bin-laden? How do you decide who is good enough to go to heaven or not? How much good do you have to do to secure your place? Can you ever lose that place if you go from being good to being bad? What defines a "bad" person, anyway? 

That's too ambiguous for me. 



> If the world ends tomorrow and the only bus that shows up is for all the Buddhists, I will be the first to say, "Hey let me on that bus! I'm a good guy!"


I'm glad that works for you.


----------



## Created2Write

Maricha75 said:


> As has been stated before... as a Christian, I believe there is only One Way... through Christ, who died for our sins. And those who hear His word and choose to reject it, yes, I do believe they will not go to Heaven. How can one be happy in a place with Someone in whom they don't believe? :scratchhead:


Exactly. And that's a great point.


----------



## Blondilocks

wilderness said:


> The operative question is WHICH God do you believe in?


Raising my hand, here. I know, I know. As a Christian, we know there is only one God. Don't care if people call him God, Jehovah, Mohammed or Pitty-Pat.


----------



## Maricha75

turnera said:


> What about all the people who lived and died before Jesus was born? They all went to hell cos their timing was off?


Well, no, they didn't go to hell. They are in their graves. Oh... you are speaking of the belief of the majority of Christians. See, I don't believe that you go immediately to Heaven or Hell, nor do I believe in purgatory. I believe when you die, it is a sleep, waiting for Jesus' return.... which is what I believe regarding those who lived and died before Jesus was born.

Now, as for that particular time.... Jews were waiting for the Messiah. So, really, He WAS part of that time... the part they were looking forward to. In fact, Jesus' birth, death, and resurrection was in place from the beginning. It was mentioned when Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden.


----------



## pidge70

> Pitty-Pat


:rofl:


----------



## Created2Write

SadSamIAm said:


> My happiness is not up to God, it is up to me.


THAT I wholeheartedly agree with.


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> The operative question is WHICH God do you believe in?


The right one!


----------



## wilderness

SadSamIAm said:


> The right one!


If that were true you would believe the words of his Son.


----------



## turnera

Or...if that Son was really just a man like other religions believe, we'd have no reason to believe his words...


----------



## LifeIsAJourney

Unique Username said:


> Anyone know what Scientologists views are on this?
> 
> I don't, I'd like to know.


Scientologists don't believe in heaven or hell. This from scientology.org:

"Scientologists believe that people are immortal spiritual beings who have lived before and who will live again, and that their future happiness and immortality as spiritual beings depend on how they conduct themselves in the here and now."


----------



## SadSamIAm

Created2Write said:


> I might be. I might not be.
> 
> 
> 
> What you call arrogance, I call order. There have to be consequences to our decisions. I don't believe that _everyone_ should go to heaven, so how does your God decide who does and doesn't go to heaven? Is Hitler in heaven? What about Charles Manson? What about Osama Bin-laden? How do you decide who is good enough to go to heaven or not? How much good do you have to do to secure your place? Can you ever lose that place if you go from being good to being bad? What defines a "bad" person, anyway?
> 
> That's too ambiguous for me.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad that works for you.


This is tough! About who goes to heaven!

I like to think that most everyone goes to heaven. 

What would happen to Hitler if before the end of his life he repented? He truly was sorry and asked God for forgiveness?

What does the Bible say would happen to him?


----------



## Maricha75

SadSamIAm said:


> That is OK! I have you covered, because the God I believe in won't punish you if you are wrong.


No, you do not have me covered. Only God has me covered. I believe the Bible is His Holy Word, and it says in there that there is only ONE way, through Jesus. I do not pretend to speak of those who never had the chance to hear His word. But of those who hear and reject it? It is very plain that they will not have a part in Heaven, no matter how "good" they are otherwise.




SadSamIAm said:


> To be honest, I have never felt his presence. But I have talked (prayed) to him (or her) and have felt that he has listened to me.
> 
> My happiness is not up to God, it is up to me.


You feel Him listening, but you don't feel His presence?

I decide how to live my life. God does not force me to do anything, nor does He force anyone else. I wake up every morning, thankful for the life He has given me. I am thankful for my family, as well as my friends. I am thankful for all He has done for me, which I do not deserve. There was a time I did not feel His presence, and I WAS unhappy. Why? Because I was separated from Him. By that, I mean I was doing my own thing, no thought to God. When I turned back, it as different. My tation in life did not change, but my perspective DID.Some may say, "Well, that was all on you." I don't believe that. Everything else was still the same... money, possessions, etc. The difference came when I let God back into my heart.


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> Or...if that Son was really just a man like other religions believe, we'd have no reason to believe his words...


He wasn't just a man.


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> If that were true you would believe the words of his Son.


That is only because you think you believe in the correct one!

What if you are wrong? 

When it comes to everlasting life, you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket. I am hedging my bets.


----------



## karole

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?* and in thy name done many wonderful works?* [/B]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


----------



## wilderness

SadSamIAm said:


> That is only because you think you believe in the correct one!
> 
> What if you are wrong?
> 
> When it comes to everlasting life, you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket. I am hedging my bets.


If I am wrong I will worship Him anyway. I worship Him always.


----------



## Maricha75

SadSamIAm said:


> That is only because you think you believe in the correct one!
> 
> What if you are wrong?
> 
> *When it comes to everlasting life, you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket.* I am hedging my bets.


When it comes to everlasting life, that is EXACTLY what you should do.

A song by Nichole Nordeman came to mind when I read the above quoted post:

What If?

What if you're right?
And he was just another nice guy
What if you're right?
What if it's true?
They say the cross will only make a fool of you
And what if it's true?

What if he takes his place in history
With all the prophets and the kings
Who taught us love and came in peace
But then the story ends
What then?

But what if you're wrong?
What if there's more?
What if there's hope you never dreamed of hoping for?
What if you jump?
And just close your eyes?
What if the arms that catch you, catch you by surprise?
What if He's more than enough?
What if it's love?

What if you dig
Way down deeper than your simple-minded friends
What if you dig?
What if you find
A thousand more unanswered questions down inside
That's all you find?

What if you pick apart the logic
And begin to poke the holes
What if the crown of thorns is no more
Than folklore that must be told and retold?

You've been running as fast as you can
You've been looking for a place you can land for so long
But what if you're wrong?


----------



## Created2Write

SadSamIAm said:


> This is tough! About who goes to heaven!
> 
> I like to think that most everyone goes to heaven.
> 
> What would happen to Hitler if before the end of his life he repented? He truly was sorry and asked God for forgiveness?
> 
> What does the Bible say would happen to him?


If he repented and _accepted Christ_, he'd be forgiven. He'd have gone to heaven. And while this is difficult for me to accept, it _is_ consistent for everyone. And I respect that. I trust that.

How would you determine who was worthy of heaven?


----------



## Created2Write

If I'm wrong and my faith in Christ has been completely useless, then I will face that when the time comes. At least I will have the confidence in knowing that I stood by my faith despite the doubts of others.


----------



## wilderness

I don't like to speculate on the salvation of others. Be it Hitler, my next door neighbor, whatever...
Jesus Christ is the judge of all men. He is the author and finisher of my faith. He is the authority on salvation and eternal life, not me.


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> If I am wrong I will worship Him anyway. I worship Him always.


I see that. Being wrong hasn't stopped you yet. 

I should give you credit, temporarily it has!


----------



## pidge70

I was forced to be saved when I was 16. I know it did nothing, I said the words but, didn't believe them.

At age 11, my grandmother was dying. I believed in God then. I prayed and prayed for him to let her live. She died. I was told God needed her more than I did. What a bunch of tripe.

After she died, my mom started drinking. A lot. She also started physically, verbally and emotionally abusing me. I prayed to God then as well. I asked him, what did I do to deserve this? The abuse lasted 8yrs. I was 19 and pregnant and she attacked me again. I had never laid a hand on my mom before. Honor thy mother and father right? Well, I beat the Hell out of her. She was not going to harm my unborn child. Where was God when this was happening? 

I gave up on God as much as he gave up on me. I will live my life to my best ability. If when I die and go to Hell, well, I guess I was wrong. 

C'est la vie


----------



## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> I was forced to be saved when I was 16. I know it did nothing, I said the words but, didn't believe them.
> 
> At age 11, my grandmother was dying. I believed in God then. I prayed and prayed for him to let her live. She died. I was told God needed her more than I did. What a bunch of tripe.
> 
> After she died, my mom started drinking. A lot. She also started physically, verbally and emotionally abusing me. I prayed to God then as well. I asked him, what did I do to deserve this? The abuse lasted 8yrs. I was 19 and pregnant and she attacked me again. I had never laid a hand on my mom before. Honor thy mother and father right? Well, I beat the Hell out of her. She was not going to harm my unborn child. Where was God when this was happening?
> 
> I gave up on God as much as he gave up on me. I will live my life to my :rofl:best ability. If when I die and go to Hell, well, I guess I was wrong.
> 
> C'est la vie


I don't believe he has given up on you at all. Maybe God has something really special for you that you cant see right now. God builds the ruined places.


----------



## wilderness

SadSamIAm said:


> I see that. Being wrong hasn't stopped you yet.
> 
> I should give you credit, temporarily it has!


I worship Him always.


----------



## Zanne

pidge70 said:


> I was forced to be saved when I was 16. I know it did nothing, I said the words but, didn't believe them.
> 
> At age 11, my grandmother was dying. I believed in God then. I prayed and prayed for him to let her live. She died. I was told God needed her more than I did. What a bunch of tripe.
> 
> After she died, my mom started drinking. A lot. She also started physically, verbally and emotionally abusing me. I prayed to God then as well. I asked him, what did I do to deserve this? The abuse lasted 8yrs. I was 19 and pregnant and she attacked me again. I had never laid a hand on my mom before. Honor thy mother and father right? Well, I beat the Hell out of her. She was not going to harm my unborn child. Where was God when this was happening?
> 
> I gave up on God as much as he gave up on me. I will live my life to my best ability. If when I die and go to Hell, well, I guess I was wrong.
> 
> C'est la vie


God WAS there, Pidge. There is sin in our world and therefore suffering. Sometimes that is hard for the human mind to comprehend.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Created2Write said:


> If he repented and _accepted Christ_, he'd be forgiven. He'd have gone to heaven. And while this is difficult for me to accept, it _is_ consistent for everyone. And I respect that. I trust that.
> 
> How would you determine who was worthy of heaven?


Like I said, that would be tough. Glad I am not God.

I always think about the person who lives a good life, but then something happens and they lose it. They go into a school and kill a bunch of people. 

A few things can happen after that.

1) The guy kills himself or is killed by someone while committing this crime
2) He escapes
3) He is put in prison or a mental hospital

If '2' or '3' happens, he has the opportunity to redeem himself. The 20 year old kid that killed a bunch of people could become a Christian and follow Gods will. When he dies at 90 years of age, he would have a very good chance of going to Heaven.

But what if '1' happens??????? This is the same guy.


----------



## Created2Write

I almost gave up my hope and faith in God when I had two miscarriages in ten months. But it wasn't so much that I was losing my faith in Him, it was more that I was losing my love for Him. But I absolutely believe that my two babies are in heaven, and I want to see them some day. I want to be a woman they can look down at and be proud of, one they can point out to the angels and say, "That's our mom!" Even when I wasn't praying, wasn't going to church, God was guiding me. I feel stronger today than I ever have felt in my life, and I thank God for being by my side when I didn't even want Him there.


----------



## Created2Write

SadSamIAm said:


> Like I said, that would be tough. Glad I am not God.
> 
> I always think about the person who lives a good life, but then something happens and they lose it. They go into a school and kill a bunch of people.
> 
> A few things can happen after that.
> 
> 1) The guy kills himself or is killed by someone while committing this crime
> 2) He escapes
> 3) He is put in prison or a mental hospital
> 
> If '2' or '3' happens, he has the opportunity to redeem himself. The 20 year old kid that killed a bunch of people could become a Christian and follow Gods will. When he dies at 90 years of age, he would have a very good chance of going to Heaven.
> 
> But what if '1' happens??????? This is the same guy.


This depends. I believe that, for one to go to heaven or hell, they have to be mentally capable of understanding right and wrong, and knowing right from wrong. So, this person, while doing someone awful, if they don't know why what they've done is bad, I don't think they can (spiritually) be held accountable for those actions.


----------



## SadSamIAm

pidge70 said:


> I was forced to be saved when I was 16. I know it did nothing, I said the words but, didn't believe them.
> 
> At age 11, my grandmother was dying. I believed in God then. I prayed and prayed for him to let her live. She died. I was told God needed her more than I did. What a bunch of tripe.
> 
> After she died, my mom started drinking. A lot. She also started physically, verbally and emotionally abusing me. I prayed to God then as well. I asked him, what did I do to deserve this? The abuse lasted 8yrs. I was 19 and pregnant and she attacked me again. I had never laid a hand on my mom before. Honor thy mother and father right? Well, I beat the Hell out of her. She was not going to harm my unborn child. Where was God when this was happening?
> 
> I gave up on God as much as he gave up on me. I will live my life to my best ability. If when I die and go to Hell, well, I guess I was wrong.
> 
> C'est la vie



I am sorry these things happened to you Pidge. 

This is precisely the reason that I don't believe that anything that goes on is up to God. It is up to each and everyone of us to do the 'right thing'. I hope you made peace with your mother at some point and that she made peace with you.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Created2Write said:


> This depends. I believe that, for one to go to heaven or hell, they have to be mentally capable of understanding right and wrong, and knowing right from wrong. So, this person, while doing someone awful, if they don't know why what they've done is bad, I don't think they can (spiritually) be held accountable for those actions.


Just like the Buddhist or Scientologist that may or may not be believing in the correct things!


----------



## Maricha75

Zanne said:


> God WAS there, Pidge. There is sin in our world and therefore suffering. Sometimes that is hard for the human mind to comprehend.


Indeed. My 6 year old niece is starting to come to terms with the fact that Grammie is dead. My mom passed away, suddenly, late last month. Do you know what my niece said to my dad yesterday? She thinks it's HER fault that Grammie died! She blames herself... that if she behaved better, Grammie wouldn't have wanted to leave her.... that if she had visited the hospital more, she would have lived. But do you know what gives her hope? Her belief in God. She, along with the rest of our family, believes that we will see Grammie again when Jesus comes back. Yes, it is equally likely that my mom will not go to Heaven, and it is just as possible that I will not. I try my best to live my life according to His word, but there is always that possibility that even those who appear the most devout may not be there. The only thing that is certain is that God knows who His people are. And He IS there, even in the bad times. Someone is beaten... He did not allow them to be killed. Someone dies, it very well may be that they DID repent, and were forgiven, and God knew that if they lived, they would have reverted back to old ways. We don't know....and I don't pretend to understand why one person lives and another dies.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Created2Write said:


> I almost gave up my hope and faith in God when I had two miscarriages in ten months. But it wasn't so much that I was losing my faith in Him, it was more that I was losing my love for Him. But I absolutely believe that my two babies are in heaven, and I want to see them some day. I want to be a woman they can look down at and be proud of, one they can point out to the angels and say, "That's our mom!" Even when I wasn't praying, wasn't going to church, God was guiding me. I feel stronger today than I ever have felt in my life, and I thank God for being by my side when I didn't even want Him there.


I know your babies are proud of you!!!!

I give most of the credit to you. The same God was by Pidge's mother side when she chose to punish Pidge for the hurt she was feeling. You could have easily let the miscarriages destroy you. But YOU didn't.


----------



## Created2Write

SadSamIAm said:


> I know your babies are proud of you!!!!


Thank you.  I miss them like crazy, and I never even held or saw them. 



> I give most of the credit to you. The same God was by Pidge's mother side when she chose to punish Pidge for the hurt she was feeling. You could have easily let the miscarriages destroy you. But YOU didn't.


See, I agree and I don't agree. I made the choices I did, _I've_ been the one working through my issues, my fears, my anger, my depression...but I do believe my faith is what kept me from killing myself(which I almost did more than once.) Even when my faith was shaky, even when I felt hatred and anger for God and was confused, I can look back and see how His hand was over me. I didn't see it then, but I can look back and see it now.


----------



## SadSamIAm

We kind of derailed Wilderness' thread. Sorry about all the discussion about religion. 

I think about it a bunch! My father was a very religous man. I know I disappointed him with many of my beliefs. Maybe I will start a thread in the Politics/Religion about it.


----------



## Unique Username

Created2Write said:


> You're exactly right. The Crusades and Hitler come to mind, as massive amounts of people were slaughtered, supposedly in the name of Christ. It's one part of Christian history that utterly taints our faith, and is something I have a major issue reconciling myself to. All I can say, is _I_ don't believe in what they did, and I don't believe God condoned their actions either.


I don't know if I would include Hitler in the list. Certainly wasn't included in my list - as killing the Jews (and homosexuals) had more to do with gaining material wealth and property (land, art, jewels, money etc.) in his quest for world domination.

But as a Hypocrite - he certainly fit the bill - he wasn't a blue-eyed blonde like the Arians he was cultivating. 

And I read somewhere where you guys were disparaging Catholics a little bit. In Definition they Are part of Christianity.


Also, The American Judicial system is based on a Judeo-Christian Value System.


----------



## Unique Username

Created2Write said:


> I might be. I might not be.
> 
> 
> 
> What you call arrogance, I call order. There have to be consequences to our decisions. I don't believe that _everyone_ should go to heaven, so how does your God decide who does and doesn't go to heaven? Is Hitler in heaven? What about Charles Manson? What about Osama Bin-laden? How do you decide who is good enough to go to heaven or not? How much good do you have to do to secure your place? Can you ever lose that place if you go from being good to being bad? What defines a "bad" person, anyway?
> 
> That's too ambiguous for me.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad that works for you.


Charles Manson isn't dead, so I can 100% positively say he is NOT in heaven.


----------



## Unique Username

Created2Write said:


> They could be. Why should this matter to us? It's not faith if the beliefs of others, or the mockery of a stranger on a message board, is enough to dissuade me from my beliefs. And while you may not agree, it's really immature to mock someone else's beliefs.


For the record

I am not trying to dissuade ANYONE from believing whatever it is they believe in.

I do have a question for everyone though.

Did you always go to Church/Temple/Mosque or whatever
since you were a little kid?

And if you did, do you think it is much easier to have faith because of this?


----------



## SadSamIAm

wilderness said:


> No way. It doesn't utterly taint our faith. First of all, I don't believe a damn thing that any of the history books say.


Isn't the Bible a 'history' book?


----------



## turnera

Unique Username said:


> I do have a question for everyone though.
> 
> Did you always go to Church/Temple/Mosque or whatever
> since you were a little kid?
> 
> And if you did, do you think it is much easier to have faith because of this?


I was not raised in church; my H was. So much so that I had to find a way to help him deal with evolution since he believed in evolution but his church said it was false (he's decided who's to say how long a 'day' is in God's mind?). We started going when DD23 was born because I wanted her to be raised in faith so she'd know what it was, and would be better educated to make her own decision about it. Without a single word from me on the subject, she has decided she is a deist (believes in SOME form of higher power), and not a Christian. I'm Agnostic. So I'm not sure what you can take from that.


----------



## Unique Username

Maricha75 said:


> Well, no, they didn't go to hell. They are in their graves. Oh... you are speaking of the belief of the majority of Christians. See, I don't believe that you go immediately to Heaven or Hell, nor do I believe in purgatory. I believe when you die, it is a sleep, waiting for Jesus' return.... which is what I believe regarding those who lived and died before Jesus was born.
> 
> Now, as for that particular time.... Jews were waiting for the Messiah. So, really, He WAS part of that time... the part they were looking forward to. In fact, Jesus' birth, death, and resurrection was in place from the beginning. It was mentioned when Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden.


In what Protestant denomination do you belong?

I'm asking because is actually rather fascinating (to me) the belief differences in denominations of Christianity.


----------



## Maricha75

Unique Username said:


> In what Protestant denomination do you belong?
> 
> I'm asking because is actually rather fascinating (to me) the belief differences in denominations of Christianity.


Seventh Day Adventist.

And to answer the questions posed, no, I didn't always go to the church from the time I was a kid. Mom had me baptized as a baby in the Catholic church. When I was about 8 or 9 years old, my dad became a member of the Seventh Day Adventist church, and we girls started attending with him. I was 15 when I was baptized, but I wasn't really ready to make that committment. I felt like I HAD to at that point. Ov er the years, I have done many things I shouldn't have, and now regret. I cannot change the past, only move forward. During all those years, I never lost my faith in God... even when I was disfellowshipped. When my life turned back around, I was rebaptized into the church. We have not always been able to attend, but it hasn't shaken my faith. Sometimes, I will study a passage I had seen years ago, and a light bulb turns on... and I wonder why I didn't see it before... but it was because I wasn't READY at that time. Still, over the years, my faith hasn't been shaken. Not when I was in a car accident and fractured my hip. Not when I had a miscarriage at 12 weeks. Not when my son had seizures when he was 2 years old. And not when my mom passed away 3 weeks ago. My faith in God is still there, as strong, or even stronger than before.


----------



## Unique Username

Thank you for answering Maricha

I know very little about Seventh Day Adventist

Why do you have Church on Saturday? Is it similar to why Jewish people do?

Sounds like they baptize older kids and adults instead of christen babies. That is certainly different from what you had in the Catholic Church. 

Do the leaders/pastors/ministers have college degrees? What are they called? 
Or are they lay-leaders/Elders?

Are they considered Fundamentalist Christians or Bible Literalists?

And I am so sorry about your Mom. I still miss mine every single day.
It gets easier with time, but still a devastating loss.


----------



## Zanne

Unique Username said:


> For the record
> 
> I am not trying to dissuade ANYONE from believing whatever it is they believe in.
> 
> I do have a question for everyone though.
> 
> Did you always go to Church/Temple/Mosque or whatever
> since you were a little kid?
> 
> And if you did, do you think it is much easier to have faith because of this?


I grew up attending a Lutheran Church...Sunday School, Confirmation, etc. I later taught Sunday School and Confirmation classes myself. Our household was not very religious. In fact, my parents didn't even attend church with us kids. We were dropped off each Sunday because they felt it was the right thing to do. Grace was said at important dinners like Thanksgiving and only us kids would recite it at the request of our dad.

I can recite many things...The Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, books of the Bible, etc., because that is how we were taught, but I can honestly say my early religious instruction did not make it easier to have a belief in God. That part came later.

I will say that I have always felt "something" - perhaps His presence, ever since I was a young girl.

I continued in the Lutheran Church (ELCA) most of my adult life until about ten years ago. We now attend an Evangelical Free Church. 

There have been many occasions over the past years where God's Word has been revealed to me through different people and circumstances. And yes, even here on TAM!

I have seriously considered a Believer's Baptism in recent years, but of course I have much to consider and work on...

Interesting thread and topics!


----------



## Zanne

Decorum said:


> Ultimately I think a person has to follow their conscience when it comes to faith and be true to what they believe has been revealed to them.
> 
> The big question I think is what has been revealed to you and have you been true to it!
> 
> Above all things be honest with yourself.


Nice post, Decorum. Especially this last part!


----------



## Unique Username

Zanne said:


> I grew up attending a Lutheran Church...Sunday School, Confirmation, etc. I later taught Sunday School and Confirmation classes myself. Our household was not very religious. In fact, my parents didn't even attend church with us kids. We were dropped off each Sunday because they felt it was the right thing to do. Grace was said at important dinners like Thanksgiving and only us kids would recite it at the request of our dad.
> 
> I can recite many things...The Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, books of the Bible, etc., because that is how we were taught, but I can honestly say my early religious instruction did not make it easier to have a belief in God. That part came later.
> 
> I will say that I have always felt "something" - perhaps His presence, ever since I was a young girl.
> 
> I continued in the Lutheran Church (ELCA) most of my adult life until about ten years ago. We now attend an Evangelical Free Church.
> 
> There have been many occasions over the past years where God's Word has been revealed to me through different people and circumstances. And yes, even here on TAM!
> 
> I have seriously considered a Believer's Baptism in recent years, but of course I have much to consider and work on...
> 
> Interesting thread and topics!


Thanks for answering Zanne

Was believing in god automatic for you? I mean without question, since you always went to a Church?

Big change from Lutheran to Evangelical Free Church.
And I have no idea what kind of Church service they would have. Care to expand?

What is a Believers Baptism?


----------



## techmom

If I didn't know better, I would have thought this was a thread in the religions and faith boards. This thread was massively derailed talking about religion and who is right or is going to heaven. Everybody thinks they have the answers and is on the right path. Let's get back to kicking Wilderness while he's down, lol:rofl:. 

Anyway, just for giggles I'm going to ask Wilderness this question, how do you plan to make right with the husband of your lover and their child? Or is this even in any of your future plans? Do you think they deserve at least that much or no? Your answer to those questions will tell us how much you really want to make it right with God. Because faith without works is empty......


----------



## techmom

Do you want to give your AP's husband information that can help strengthen him during the divorce proceedings? Or are you going to help give him a screw job in court alongside your lover by staying out of the way and keeping quiet? 

You stated in past threads that men get screwed in court by their manipulative cheating wives, why not help one of your own? Or are you too much in the fog of denial?


----------



## wilderness

techmom said:


> Do you want to give your AP's husband information that can help strengthen him during the divorce proceedings? Or are you going to help give him a screw job in court alongside your lover by staying out of the way and keeping quiet?
> 
> You stated in past threads that men get screwed in court by their manipulative cheating wives, why not help one of your own? Or are you too much in the fog of denial?


I would never be with someone that screwed their husband over in a divorce. That would be an instant dealbreaker.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> I would never be with someone that screwed their husband over in a divorce. That would be an instant dealbreaker.


Does that mean you would marry someone who chose to divorce? How does that fit with the verses I posted?

The other observation, remembering some of our conversations in Zanne's thread, and not wanting to attack you, just to understand how your thinking has evolved. What defines screwing your husband over? If your lover spend her husband's money to be with you so you could sleep together, does that count? If he pays for the mobile you talk / text on, how about that? What level of custody and/or alimony and / or percentage of property settlement is screwing him over? I think these are very hard questions to answer.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> Does that mean you would marry someone who chose to divorce? How does that fit with the verses I posted?
> 
> The other observation, remembering some of our conversations in Zanne's thread, and not wanting to attack you, just to understand how your thinking has evolved. What defines screwing your husband over? If your lover spend her husband's money to be with you so you could sleep together, does that count? If he pays for the mobile you talk / text on, how about that? What level of custody and/or alimony and / or percentage of property settlement is screwing him over? I think these are very hard questions to answer.


I will answer your question in full tomorrow. Right now I'm on my mobile which doesn't lend itself to a long reply.


----------



## Maricha75

Unique Username said:


> Thank you for answering Maricha
> 
> I know very little about Seventh Day Adventist
> 
> Why do you have Church on Saturday? Is it similar to why Jewish people do?


We go to church on Saturday because it is the Sabbath, set apart by God, at creation. If you look at the 10 Commandments, it is the only one that says to "remember". Many think that particular commandment, is no longer needing to be kept because, and I HAVE heard people state this, it was "nailed to the cross". If that's the case, then we no longer have to keep the other 9 either...so we're free to lie, steal, kill, etc. The sabbaths that the New Testament refers to, regarding not HAVING to keep, are the High Holy Days.... special feast days, that sort of thing. 



Unique Username said:


> Sounds like they baptize older kids and adults instead of christen babies. That is certainly different from what you had in the Catholic Church.


Oh, yea, very different! Children are baptized once they are old enough to understand what it means to be baptized. I know some wonder WHY we don't baptize babies and very young children. We believe that Jesus was baptized, not just to set an example, but because HIS baptism covers those too young to make the conscious decision, as well as those who are not physically capable of getting into the water...

We do, however, have infant/child dedications.



Unique Username said:


> Do the leaders/pastors/ministers have college degrees? What are they called?
> Or are they lay-leaders/Elders?


We call them pastors. The majority have a Master of Divinity degree, but there are some who are not college educated. Some of the members do act as lay pastors, and preach on occasion. And we do have elders as well. But the pastor, most often, is a college graduate.



Unique Username said:


> Are they considered Fundamentalist Christians or Bible Literalists?


We are Fundamentalists.



Unique Username said:


> And I am so sorry about your Mom. I still miss mine every single day.
> It gets easier with time, but still a devastating loss.


Thank you. I know it gets easier in time. I remember when my grandmother passed away, when I was 15. Dad does, of course, think of her, and miss her, as do I. However, I know the pain of losing her has eased quite a bit.


----------



## turnera

Zanne, why did you leave ELCA? We (ELCA) always considered those "other ones" to be quite different. I've always been kinda proud at how open and welcoming and nonjudgmental the ELCA is.


----------



## Zanne

Unique Username said:


> Thanks for answering Zanne
> 
> Was believing in god automatic for you? I mean without question, since you always went to a Church?
> 
> Big change from Lutheran to Evangelical Free Church.
> And I have no idea what kind of Church service they would have. Care to expand?
> 
> What is a Believers Baptism?


Yes, I have always believed in God for as long as I can remember. I just didn't "get it" - the reason for Jesus Christ. However, there is no way I can even consider that He does not exist. My mind can't go there.

There are a few differences in our services. For one, we have a message, not a sermon. And then the rest of the time there is lots of worship with contemporary Christian music. We attend a large church with a team of musicians and a comfy auditorium to sit in. Very different from my days sitting in wooden pews in my Lutheran church! Sometimes I consider it "Christian Lite" but the messages are still very powerful. 

A believers baptism is a public confession of Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. I was baptised as an infant, as were all five of my kids, but if I chose to be baptised again, as an adult, it would be because I am publicly committing my life to Christ. It's a symbolic thing.




turnera said:


> Zanne, why did you leave ELCA? We (ELCA) always considered those "other ones" to be quite different. I've always been kinda proud at how open and welcoming and nonjudgmental the ELCA is.


We actually didn't leave on purpose. We moved back home after several years away and I was church shopping. My old Lutheran church that I grew up in was stagnant, same old families, etc. and I had a young family. Our friend invited us to his church which is EFCA and we eventually became regular attendees. I have completed all requirements to become a member except to give my testimony to the elders. Sadly, I don't think that's going to happen now.

I agree this has been a sidetrack from the OP for some readers, but faith is an integral part of Wilderness' life. In my own thread I have welcomed such discussion. It is comforting to know people's backgrounds.


----------



## Zanne

Wazza said:


> Does that mean you would marry someone who chose to divorce? How does that fit with the verses I posted?
> 
> The other observation, remembering some of our conversations in Zanne's thread, and not wanting to attack you, just to understand how your thinking has evolved. What defines screwing your husband over? If your lover spend her husband's money to be with you so you could sleep together, does that count? If he pays for the mobile you talk / text on, how about that? What level of custody and/or alimony and / or percentage of property settlement is screwing him over? I think these are very hard questions to answer.


IMO, I don't think Wilderness is obligated to do anything in favor of or against his exgirlfriend's husband. It was a one time thing. He should get the heck out of there, to be sure. He made the right choice. Now he should move along with his immediate plans which he talked about above...talk to mentor, etc. Nothing more needs to be done if he is truly NC.


----------



## Unique Username

I appreciate those who have answered. 

I felt it has been a very respectful discussion, and yes relevant.

I hope more answer.


----------



## Zanne

Interestingly, my own five kids are all Agnostic. The three older kids all attended Sunday School at a Lutheran Church until we moved, however I believe Decorum was right when he said we need to be true to what is revealed to us. I pray for my kids that the Holy Spirit will reveal Himself to them. But I can't force religion on them. I CAN witness to them though (and admittedly I fall short doing this).


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> I was so angry with her for so long, I didn't realize what was _underneath_ the anger. These overwhelming feelings of sadness, regret, despair, rejection, shame, love, etc…it's like they were trapped by my anger. Once I was no longer angry at her, once I released it, it was like a flood of emotion overwhelmed the levy.
> 
> Things that happened 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago and now it feels like they just happened yesterday. I can't believe how much was buried inside of me, more than I ever knew. They say time heals all wounds but these wounds have not healed. It doesn't feel like they'll ever heal.
> 
> Anger is just a _mask_. And I wore that mask, it's name is denial, for many years. Now it's gone and all that is left is raw skin.





wilderness said:


> Have you ever heard of 'splitting', Zanne? It's a psychological defense mechanism that people use, they 'split' a person to be either all good (white) or all bad (black). I know I've caught myself doing it, heck I've even done it to you in the past. Once someone is considered 'black', i.e- all bad, it then becomes very easy to treat them badly as an all bad person does not deserve respect or kindness. It's the minds way of dehumanizing someone.
> 
> I think some have split me, and you, all black in their minds. They can't conceive that someone that makes a bad choice (or even makes several bad choices) can be anything other than 'all bad'.
> 
> It all boils down to this-
> hate the sin, love the sinner.
> 
> Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.


I suggest you take the above thoughts and pray long and hard about your perception of your ex-wife. You seem to still consider yourself her "victim". You don't seem to be able to see nor feel what it was like in *her shoes*. My H's first adultery was ONS w/prostitute 7 years in. IME the cheater is mean, cruel, and abusive to the WS as a way of justifying their choices (blaming the victim). 

Wilderness, based on how you have treated people here I'm afraid I don't buy your contention that the restraining order she has against you is baseless.

I think you have some serious amends to make with the ex... This new woman should go look up your MRA rants against women and beware that as it stands, she is in line to be your next whipping girl.


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> I was so angry with her for so long, I didn't realize what was _underneath_ the anger. These overwhelming feelings of sadness, regret, despair, rejection, shame, love, etc…it's like they were trapped by my anger. Once I was no longer angry at her, once I released it, it was like a flood of emotion overwhelmed the levy.
> 
> Things that happened 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago and now it feels like they just happened yesterday. I can't believe how much was buried inside of me, more than I ever knew. They say time heals all wounds but these wounds have not healed. It doesn't feel like they'll ever heal.
> 
> Anger is just a _mask_. And I wore that mask, it's name is denial, for many years. Now it's gone and all that is left is raw skin.


Do you have an IC? Springboard and dig. I can't help but wonder about your R with your mother? The misogyny came from somewhere...


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> The one I sinned against _is _God.


^^There's the error right there. God is not your victim. People are.

Do a Bible Study on "sin against" and "cause to stumble". Start here

And make amends with the ex and with your daughter, OMH, etc.

I consider my H's 2008 AP to be among his victims. By his actions, he blasphemed the God he claims to represent and the gospel. (she is a non-christian hard living gambling drinking smoking shacking up with BF mother of 4 out of wedlock children)


----------



## Openminded

Unique Username said:


> I appreciate those who have answered.
> 
> I felt it has been a very respectful discussion, and yes relevant.
> 
> I hope more answer.


I grew up Baptist. I didn't like it. Then for the 45 years I was married I was Methodist. I didn't like that either. Last year after my divorce, I moved into the city and began attending a large, in-town Presbyterian church. For the first time in my life, I felt at home in a church. I attend weekly and it's something I look forward to and enjoy. I still struggle greatly with religion but I love my church.


----------



## Blonde

Zanne said:


> Wilderness is saying it is easy because the work has been done for us. But he also admits that he doesn't walk away completely free as far as how he hurt his relationship with God.



^^same error

God is not your victim. People are.


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> Knock it off, dude. You know I'm a believer on Jesus Christ. You want to attack me, go ahead. I admit that I deserve it. I'm fair game. You want to attack my God, that's not cool.


The way I read, SadSam is not "attacking God" and God can defend Himself, wilderness. God is no one's victim.

I'm tracking right along with Sad Sam and have deeply appreciated his input on this thread. He and I have a problem with those who claim a cloak of "christian" and proceed to leave a wake of pain and destruction in their path

Review all the NT passages about hell and note to whom Jesus is speaking. It is not the "pagans" He addresses. It is those who claim to be His followers.


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> Huh? You are saying that sinning once is just as harmful as sinning 100x? As an extreme example, if I had a ONS, you think that is a bad as having an affair for a year and having sex with another person 100x?
> 
> Based on that logic once one has sex with AP, they might as well have sex with them for 10 years since it is no worse than having sex with them once.
> 
> I believe that you are wrong about this.


H had a ONS with a prostitute 7 years in in 1990. No deception. He did it on a business trip and booked a flight home the next day to cry about it. You cannot unring that bell. The trust was broken, the vows were broken, and the M was never the same after that.

By about 20 years in, I trusted him. And then he had an affair 26 years in (with quite a bit of deception involved).

Now we are 31 years in and I take one day at a time. Tomorrow he could do it again. And it will ratchet up to 7 times worse because that is how it works when someone who claims to be a Christian sweeps out their house and fails to fill it with the Holy Spirit. 

He's claimed to be a christian all along (was in full time ministry for many years) but never dug around in his heart and got to the root issues of what drives his behavior.

TBH I'd prefer a year of hard soul searching with a good professional counselor than 30 years of shallow "faith"


----------



## Blonde

Created2Write said:


> Yes and no. You sinned against God first, but you also sinned against the woman you had sex with(and her family), her husband(and his family), her child, and yourself.


YES!

AND against the ex Mrs Wilderness and against his own daughter

ex mrs wilderness is not the villain she has been portrayed here. She is another victim in wilderness' wake

And personally I consider this OW his victim too. She does not claim to be a christian and have christian morals. She's a worldly woman following worldly impulses. As for me, I pity her for the emptiness and poverty of such a lifestyle (I think God feels that way toward her too. Jesus role models this.).


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> She had me falsely imprisoned! She's falsely accused my whole family! She's lied to court officials, judges, on court paperwork, and she's tried to permanently separate me from my child. She had sex with OM _and refused to stop having sex with him._ You'd better believe what she did to me was objectively worse than what I did to her. It's not even close.




you have work to do! 

"saint wilderness the innocent victim of horrid ex-wife" doesn't fly

lifeistooshort was a little harsh but she nailed it:


lifeistooshort said:


> bring this terrible anger for an ex gf you're still hung up on into your marriage,
> have lots of ons's,
> treat your wife like crap,
> but when she finds another man and dumps you you're a poor victim.


----------



## Blonde

SadSamIAm said:


> When she asked you if you would be there for her when she files for divorce, what did you tell her?
> 
> Remember, God is listening!!!


Wilderness said she reads the thread and he posted this on the thread:





wilderness said:


> This is it. My decision.
> 
> I've never been someone that believes in half measures or being lukewarm. I'm either allin or all out.
> 
> In this case, I'm going to assume everything that she has told me is the truth. What to do from here-
> 
> 1. I'm not going to fvck her again until the process of divorce moves forward. No matter what.
> 2. My heart will remain with her, 1000%, until and unless she proves that she was lying or changes her mind.
> 3. I will start a fast tomorrow.
> 4. I will let God work it out.
> 5. The rest of the details are between her, me, her husband, and God.
> 
> Thank you all for your advice. Some of it was very good. Amen.


wilderness have you recanted this ^^ yet? Telling that Zanne was the only one who "liked" the above post, dontcha think?

Wilderness, I think you should invite your ex-wife to read this thread. I would LOVE to hear her side. Will she be sharing about what a saintly godly christian role model you have provided in how you treat her, her family, etc??? Wilderness "the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place" (2 Cor 2:14)??? 

MAN UP and WALK THE TALK!​


----------



## JCD

Blondilocks said:


> "Entertaining to see Zanne on here attempting to help you justify the affair."
> 
> When the mighty have fallen, the previously fallen feel absolved. Or, it could be an example of Stockholm Syndrome.


How about something very simple.

Zanne fell hard. She knows how much like a POS she feels about this. She knows EXACTLY how much of a POS wilderness feels like.

So the occasional expression of sympathy even to a guy who made her miserable is actually pretty frigging mature and gracious and shows some growth.

A drug user isn't going to be helped by some Church lady saying 'Just say no'. The person who can help them walk through the darkness is someone who already ran into all the furniture in the room already on her path through it all.


----------



## JCD

Zanne said:


> Touche, Karole. I do feel bad for her because she doesn't want her marriage to end and because she is blind to what is happening. But she also contributed to its demise (and continues to do so) and that was way before I came into the picture.


I am not about to go into a witch hunt about you, so please take this as just a little irrelevant historical aside.

Julius Caesar was assassinated 2058 years ago last month, on March 15th.

He was stabbed 23 times by something like 60 people. Examination of his body showed that only one of the stab wounds was fatal.

So...even if one of the 23 wounds was only a scratch on the arm, what is that person's moral and legal culpability in the entire exchange even if they had not in fact landed the coup de grace?


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> I don't have a plan. I'm taking it day by day. But I certainly need one.


Have you recanted the plan you posted? You made quite clear to OW that you were going to "be there" for her.

OW, if you are reading this, how long do you think it will take for wilderness to hate you like he hates his ex-w? There's root issues here that he has clearly not addressed. You yourself called him out on the dishonesty about his own cheating. He gives himself a free pass to follow the little head around wherever it leads but no mercy for the woman. 

His wife eventually got fed up and found someone else and wilderness *reaped what he sowed*. I suggest you call her up and find out what she thinks of him and if she recommends him. I expect she'll give you an earful to ponder....


----------



## JCD

wilderness said:


> Have you ever heard of 'splitting', Zanne? It's a psychological defense mechanism that people use, they 'split' a person to be either all good (white) or all bad (black). I know I've caught myself doing it, heck I've even done it to you in the past. Once someone is considered 'black', i.e- all bad, it then becomes very easy to treat them badly as an all bad person does not deserve respect or kindness. It's the minds way of dehumanizing someone.
> 
> I think some have split me, and you, all black in their minds. They can't conceive that someone that makes a bad choice (or even makes several bad choices) can be anything other than 'all bad'.
> 
> It all boils down to this-
> hate the sin, love the sinner.
> 
> Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.


This is very wise, intelligent and insightful.

Now...why the hell are you still doing what you are doing?

You know what you NEED to do. Stop fighting it.


----------



## Blonde

Created2Write said:


> the harm you went through from her betrayal was worse than her harm from your betrayal...
> Were her actions more extreme? Yes, I think so. Did she cause you more harm? Yes.


^^I don't buy this

wilderness was adulterous and sowed adultery

and I really can see the scenario lifeistooshort suggested. His ex-w just got fed up with his crapola and someone who treated her better came along

Not sure when he became a Christian? but he sure doesn't act like JESUS toward his ex-w!

A couple examples of Jesus interacting with adulterous women: John 4; John 8


----------



## JCD

wilderness said:


> She had me falsely imprisoned! She's falsely accused my whole family! She's lied to court officials, judges, on court paperwork, and she's tried to permanently separate me from my child. She had sex with OM _and refused to stop having sex with him._ You'd better believe what she did to me was objectively worse than what I did to her. It's not even close.


Here's the deal, sparky.

ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

The analogy I put out there originally still applies. The truest of blue 'never cheated, never will' 'haven't hurt a soul and I give to charity' is no better and no worse than Hitler.

You want to point the finger at your ex and shout 'She's worse!'

Well...a lot of people here are doing the same thing to you. YOU are wrong in this opinion. THEY are wrong in their opinion about you. We are all flawed creatures and the 'measure' is left up to him.

So...if we are all 'equal' why not all be negative and worse? Because we have to live with the repercussions of our actions. And while I will not throw stones at you for being a 'bad man', I can use my discernment and judgment to say 'is this person engaging in a lot of negative behavior which may spill over and hurt me and mine?'

So I won't throw stones, but that doesn't mean I need to embrace you...or any other sinner if I think they are still stuck in their descent. Granted, it is a much more gracious thing to help someone still falling than to help someone who is already starting to stand on his own.

I have my own nest of bad decisions. 

Until you let what she did go and actually embrace YOUR poor actions of your past without deflecting it by mentioning what she did...you haven't dealt with this issue.


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> Yes, you are right. I definitely betrayed her. In other ways, too. Not just sexually. Honestly I was a pretty lousy husband but a very good father.


Excellent! :smthumbup:

How are you going to make amends to your ex for being a lousy husband?


----------



## JCD

wilderness said:


> I plan on telling the leader of my bible study group. I great man of God, a friend, a leader, someone I trust more than anyone in the world. I was going to tell him yesterday but bible study was cancelled. I also plan on telling the Pastor that attends the bible study group. Another great man. Someone that will be very disappointed in me as he wants me to be a leader of men. *I also need to join a new church. * That's part of my plan. I will attend services Sunday and make up my mind about a particular church.
> 
> I love the word of God and I try to read everyday. Most recently I have been reading Judges. Also a little of Matthew.
> 
> And of course I love the gospel of John. I've been thinking of studying 1 and 2 Peter again for whatever reason it's been on my heart as well.
> 
> Thank you for your help. I pray that God brings me through. And of course the ladies family that I wronged.


That sounds a little like running away from people who can hold you actually accountable.

What is your reason for that action?


----------



## JCD

wilderness said:


> I'm not. I don't have a church presently. Long story, my last church let me down.


Wow! So...they are full of flawed people also.

Sort of like me. Sort of like you.

Think hard on that point whether you look for a new church or not.


----------



## JCD

Okay.

Wilderness, you have deflected (with some help) the purpose of this thread from 'how do I fix things' to a discussion of comparative religions.

We are off the point. 

You wronged your ex. Full stop. Fix it for her. She probably won't appreciate it. This is about YOUR soul...just as her bad actions toward you are about HER soul.

Next, you need to help the man you seriously wronged. And no, sending DOprah's book club list from TAM isn't going to cut it. You are wanting grace on the cheap...and it's pricey!

You don't want to truly pay. 

But we are making progress. First you wanted a Papal Dispensation to make it okay to marry a married woman you fornicated with.

Now you are past that.

We are at the point where you are willing to admit that you messed up that entire relationship.

Just a little more to go.

You can do this. Meet him in a public place or send him a letter. You need to a) admit your sins and b) identify yourself without putting yourself in danger.

Will you sleep better? I don't know. How are you sleeping now?

Because for all the people throwing stones at your God for your actions...this is how you fix that. Everyone fails. It is by getting through and making amends that defines a person's character...and that reflects on God too.


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> If that were true you would believe the words of his Son.


Rich! 

What does "believe the words of his Son" mean to you wilderness?

Jesus said: “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matt 5:27
​
Sorry, but afraid Matt 23:15 comes to mind... The first time H commited adultery he was an evangelical church supported missionary in a foreign country (and the prostitute was young- probably sold into the sex trade by her impoverished family)


----------



## lifeistooshort

Blonde said:


> ^^I don't buy this
> 
> wilderness was adulterous and sowed adultery
> 
> and I really can see the scenario lifeistooshort suggested. His ex-w just got fed up with his crapola and someone who treated her better came along
> 
> Not sure when he became a Christian? but he sure doesn't act like JESUS toward his ex-w!
> 
> A couple examples of Jesus interacting with adulterous women: John 4; John 8



That's where I was trying to get him to go, you did a better job. Perhaps I was too harsh, but that's a byproduct of lots of.nasty anti woman posts by wilderness. He brought a lot of baggage into his marriage and probably didn't treat her well; if it's true as he says that she'd ask him who he f$cked that suggests a wife that isn't connected to her husband. Yet though it all wilderness continued to insist he was the huge victim in all of it, and that he was still entitled his family. And now we find out that in addition to all of his marital bad behavior he was still hung up on his ex!

And after many posts insisting that us women make up abuse to justify "breaking our contract", his gf is somehow above that. And while he does seem to be making some progress he's still looking for ways to justify and still spewing hate at his ex; the very same hate he had for his gf until she f$cked him. 

Do I think it's possible his ex also behaved badly? Of course; ugly marriages and divorces tend to bring out the worst in people. I don't know if he was falsely imprisoned or not; I believe he thinks he was, but based on many of the nasty posts I've seen him write I suspect his version of events might not be the whole truth.

Whatever, I'm not the type that wishes ill for anyone and hope he puts himself together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> I will answer your question in full tomorrow. Right now I'm on my mobile which doesn't lend itself to a long reply.


It's tomorrow


----------



## pidge70

Wazza said:


> It's tomorrow


:lol:


----------



## Wazza

Zanne said:


> IMO, I don't think Wilderness is obligated to do anything in favor of or against his exgirlfriend's husband. It was a one time thing. He should get the heck out of there, to be sure. He made the right choice. Now he should move along with his immediate plans which he talked about above...talk to mentor, etc. Nothing more needs to be done if he is truly NC.


It really depends how Wilderness wants to play this.

He has spoken about prayer, fasting and believing God's word. Yet I posted verses that make it clear, even if his lover divorces, he is not to marry her. I asked him about that because his answer suggests he still intends to marry her once she is divorced. 

I then dug into what it means to screw your husband over in divorce. 

In both cases I am trying to get Wilderness to talk about concrete and specific actions. Not high sounding religious mumbo jumbo that sounds great but does not match his actions.

Of course, the same verses have implications for you, I know that.


----------



## Phenix70

wilderness said:


> Yes, I messed up and had sex with a married woman. If that taints me forever in your eyes, *why post on my thread? To make me pay? *
> 
> How you do you know that I'm lusting in my heart for her? You do not know me, nor do you have any idea the desires of my heart.



I read this entire thread, all 54 pages of it and this is the one post that stood out to me because I want you to remember it OP as these are words you should heed yourself when posting on TAM.
You have made many hurtful posts here, so ask yourself, why? 
Were you exercising your own demons or did you feel it was your place to act as judge and jury against the "evil women" of the world? 
Let this be at least one lesson you may learn & I'll even frame it in Biblical terms for you, "Judge not, that ye be not judged."


----------



## pidge70

Phenix70 said:


> I read this entire thread, all 54 pages of it and this is the one post that stood out to me because I want you to remember it OP as these are words you should heed yourself when posting on TAM.
> You have made many hurtful posts here, so ask yourself, why?
> Were you exercising your own demons or did you feel it was your place to act as judge and jury against the "evil women" of the world?
> Let this be at least one lesson you may learn & I'll even frame it in Biblical terms for you, "Judge not, that ye be not judged."


Oh, I like you. As soon as I get on my comp, I'm gonna like you proper....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AVR1962

I really feel for you all. It is possible she married someone safe as a rebound from the break-up. now she has a child and realizes she is not really in love with her husband but wants you instead. This would mean a divorce on her part which takes the child away from bio dad, you then are raising a step child and dealing with an angry ex once he realizes that you two are involved. That in itself is alot of pressure that can have some lasting effects on your relationship with this woman. 

My suggestion here is to stop the sexual contact and for the two of you to talk this thru. Love can be blind. It is possible that the two of you are meant to be together and it very well might work but I think exploring the past and what created the break-up is a good idea. Sometimes relationships take on the same patterns and if that were to happen being in a relationship with this woman once again, you might find yourself split for a second time.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> It's tomorrow


I am sorry that I didn't get it, but I will.


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> I suggest you take the above thoughts and pray long and hard about your perception of your ex-wife. You seem to still consider yourself her "victim". You don't seem to be able to see nor feel what it was like in *her shoes*. My H's first adultery was ONS w/prostitute 7 years in. IME the cheater is mean, cruel, and abusive to the WS as a way of justifying their choices (blaming the victim).
> 
> Wilderness, based on how you have treated people here I'm afraid I don't buy your contention that the restraining order she has against you is baseless.
> 
> I think you have some serious amends to make with the ex... This new woman should go look up your MRA rants against women and beware that as it stands, she is in line to be your next whipping girl.


Blonde -

You are so wrong it is not even funny. What my ex and her mother are doing is flat out disgusting and despicable. It seems to me that you have some bizarre moral code where you think if a man makes some mistakes he deserves to have his life destroyed by lies, harassment, and PROVABLY false accusations. Yet even that does NOT explain why she is also trying to destroy my parents and my daughter.

You better believe that I'm a victim when it comes to my ex and her mother. I am the very definition of a victim. I have been falsely accused falsely imprisoned and abused well beyond what you can imagine. I challenge you or anyone else to carefully examine the facts and come to any other conclusion than THIS IS HORRIBLY WRONG! I have MOUNTAINS of evidence, witnesses and PROOF.

Will you accept my offer and look at the proof? I fear not as no one is interested in what is happening and what actually happened. All anyone is interested in is the accusations which are laughable when looked at in the aggregate and in context.











tprovable false accusations


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> ^^I don't buy this
> 
> wilderness was adulterous and sowed adultery
> 
> and I really can see the scenario lifeistooshort suggested. His ex-w just got fed up with his crapola and someone who treated her
> 
> 
> better came along
> 
> Not sure when he became a Christian? but he sure doesn't act like JESUS toward his ex-w!
> 
> A couple examples of Jesus interacting with adulterous women: John 4; John 8



You don't have the faintest clue what you are talking about.
What you believe is so far divorced from reality that it is stunning.


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> you have work to do!
> 
> "saint wilderness the innocent victim of horrid ex-wife" doesn't fly
> 
> lifeistooshort was a little harsh but she nailed it:


Wow are you wrong. How dare you make a joke over what I have been through. Do you have any idea how dehumanizing it is, how humiliationg, how HORRIBLE it is to shackled and thrown in prison when you have done absolutely nothing wrong? To be stripsearched, have your cavities searched, to wear the same clothes with no deoderant and little toothpaste in 100 degree heat with no air conditioning. And all the while your abusers are LAUGHING at you. They LAUGHED at my parents pain too. Because my parents know the truth- they have been ABUSED as well and they feel responsible because they cannot help because no one will listen because no.one cares.
Get off your high horse, Blonde. Because if you don't you just might find yourself in my shoes someday.


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> YES!
> 
> AND against the ex Mrs Wilderness and against his own daughter
> 
> ex mrs wilderness is not the villain she has been portrayed here. She is another victim in wilderness' wake
> 
> And personally I consider this OW his victim too. She does not claim to be a christian and have christian morals. She's a worldly woman following worldly impulses. As for me, I pity her for the emptiness and poverty of such a lifestyle (I think God feels that way toward her too. Jesus role models this.).


Ex Mrs. Wilderness is WORSE than the villain than I have portrayed her as. Much worse.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> Does that mean you would marry someone who chose to divorce? How does that fit with the verses I posted?
> 
> .



I am still thinking about this. As I understand the verses you suggested, marriage to a divorced woman is permitted only in cases where the husband put away the wife for reason of fornication. Something that gives me pause, however: I don't ever recall a church or a Pastor preaching against men marrying divorced women. Why is this? (maybe more people SHOULD be preaching this)


----------



## Blonde

Your perspective is that you are the victim, Wilderness.

I don't buy that you went to jail for nothing but kindness, meekness, and Christ-likeness.

Sorry, don't buy it. Seen enough of your anger on TAM to understand why your wife is afraid of you and has a restraining order in place.

OW beware!

I'm disappointed at your lack of self examination @ your role and responsibility in the demise of your M and in your wife's ongoing fear of you wilderness (she hasn't petitioned to revoke the restraining order). I had hoped this was a genuine breakthrough.

With that I have nothing else to offer. I'm out.

OW *BEWARE!*


----------



## ReformedHubby

wilderness said:


> Ex Mrs. Wilderness is WORSE than the villain than I have portrayed her as. Much worse.


Perhaps she is, but how can you honestly expect the folks around here to believe this? You've got a credibility problem at this point. Who knows what other details you conveniently left out about your marriage. Ex Mrs. Wilderness is actually looking like the better man right now.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> I am still thinking about this. As I understand the verses you suggested, marriage to a divorced woman is permitted only in cases where the husband put away the wife for reason of fornication. Something that gives me pause, however: I don't ever recall a church or a Pastor preaching against men marrying divorced women. Why is this? (maybe more people SHOULD be preaching this)


I reckon you have it exactly wrong. Once she's put away she is not to remarry. If you see it the other way you will need to explain to me what you base that on. Recapping the verses I cited.

*Luke 16:18 :* second half "...and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery". No caveats.

*Mark 10:11-12 :* Verse 12 "And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." No caveats I can see. There is discussion of a husband divorcing his wife earlier in the chapter, and Jesus makes it clear he denounces it.

*Matthew 19:9 : *"Anyone who divorces his wife except for sexual immorality and marries another woman commits adultery". Gives the husband a pass. Not you or your lover.

*Matthew 5:32 :* Basically same as the Luke quote.

Divorce is widely accepted now, and it's not fashionable to preach about it. But I am doing nothing other than quoting the bible.


----------



## Unique Username

Men acquire a particular quality by constantly acting a particular way... you become just by performing just actions, temperate by performing temperate actions, brave by performing brave actions.
-- Aristotle

Liars when they speak the truth are not believed. 
--Aristotle

I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who overcomes his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self.
--Aristotle

It is the nature of desire not to be satisfied, and most men live only for the gratification of it.
--Aristotle


----------



## Unique Username

What it lies in our power to do, it lies in our power not to do.

Aristotle


----------



## SadSamIAm

Wazza said:


> I reckon you have it exactly wrong. Once she's put away she is not to remarry. If you see it the other way you will need to explain to me what you base that on. Recapping the verses I cited.
> 
> *Luke 16:18 :* second half "...and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery". No caveats.
> 
> *Mark 10:11-12 :* Verse 12 "And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." No caveats I can see. There is discussion of a husband divorcing his wife earlier in the chapter, and Jesus makes it clear he denounces it.
> 
> *Matthew 19:9 : *"Anyone who divorces his wife except for sexual immorality and marries another woman commits adultery". Gives the husband a pass. Not you or your lover.
> 
> *Matthew 5:32 :* Basically same as the Luke quote.
> 
> Divorce is widely accepted now, and it's not fashionable to preach about it. But I am doing nothing other than quoting the bible.


While I am pro-marriage, times have changed. 

The Bible is a bit out of date when it comes to divorce.


----------



## techmom

Everyone who is expecting Wilderness to admit that he deserved the treatment he got from his ex need to not hold their breath. 

Wilderness, you are the epitome of a self righteous Christian wannabe who wants everybody to overlook your sins while focusing on other's sins. You don't want to reap what you sowed, and that is the biggest problem you have with your ex wife. She made you reap what you sowed. So you spent some time in prison, she probably felt that was the best solution to a crisis. 

How do I know this? Because after so many posts on this thread you were advised to reveal the affair to your lover's husband. Yet you give every reason not to, while derailing the thread discussing everything else. How do you plan to make right with this man? Are you just going to let your lover throw him under the bus? What do you think his narrative would be if he ever decided to post on the CWI threads as the betrayed spouse? How would you advise him? He is already thrown out of his home and is away from the child that he loves. What justifies that? Is it justified because this particular situation serves you instead of someone else? Is it because you are the affair partner who is hiding in the shadows scared to come out? 

Do you see the parallels of the situation when you compare it to your divorce? Or are you too self centered?

Here is what I think, you are going to use Christ and the church to avoid taking responsibility for your actions. Not just fasting and praying, because that is not helping the man whose life you are about to wreck.

Remember this, you are guilty of the crimes you let happen. By doing nothing at all to help this man you are aiding his wayward wife.


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> Your perspective is that you are the victim, Wilderness.
> 
> I don't buy that you went to jail for nothing but kindness, meekness, and Christ-likeness.
> 
> Sorry, don't buy it. Seen enough of your anger on TAM to understand why your wife is afraid of you and has a restraining order in place.
> 
> OW beware!
> 
> I'm disappointed at your lack of self examination @ your role and responsibility in the demise of your M and in your wife's ongoing fear of you wilderness (she hasn't petitioned to revoke the restraining order). I had hoped this was a genuine breakthrough.With that I have nothing else to offer. I'm out.
> 
> OW *BEWARE!*



I have lost every ounce of respect that I ever had for you. For you to defend an abuser is so outrageously contradictory to everything that you claim to stand for. My ex wife is most certainly not afraid of me. That's ridiculous as I haven't even spoken with her since December 2012. What she is afraid of is that I will hold her accountable for robbing my mother, physically abusing me, trying to alienate me from my child, falsely accusing my whole family, falsely imprisoning me, trying to alienate my child from my parents, cheating and refusing to stop cheating, continuously lying to court officials, and a million other things.
You are the LAST person that should be giving advice as your judgment is atrocious.


----------



## wilderness

ReformedHubby said:


> Perhaps she is, but how can you honestly expect the folks around here to believe this? You've got a credibility problem at this point. Who knows what other details you conveniently left out about your marriage. Ex Mrs. Wilderness is actually looking like the better man right now.


You defend an abuser trying to destroy lives and I am the one with a credibility problem? I cant believe you would even have the gall to say that.


----------



## Wazza

SadSamIAm said:


> While I am pro-marriage, times have changed.
> 
> The Bible is a bit out of date when it comes to divorce.


It depends what Wilderness wants. He said he is seeking God's will, so I gave him the clear teaching of the bible.

Side comment. We have a woman who made a commitment to marriage and now wants to move on, for her happiness, regardless of the impact on husband and child. We have a man who has slept with her behind her husband's back and is now struggling with how much he can do towards having a relationship with her. The husband is in for a world of pain and there is data out there to suggest the divorce will negatively impact the child. The teaching of the bible says "This is wrong." I don't personally think that the bible is out of date in this situation at all, apart from espousing a level of moral accountability that is unfashionably high. This is not a marriage where we have any evidence of abuse or whatever. Just a wife who is willing to cheat, and a man who is wiling to help her.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> I have lost every ounce of respect that I ever had for you. For you to defend an abuser is so outrageously contradictory to everything that you claim to stand for. My ex wife is most certainly not afraid of me. That's ridiculous as I haven't even spoken with her since December 2012. What she is afraid of is that I will hold her accountable for robbing my mother, physically abusing me, trying to alienate me from my child, falsely accusing my whole family, falsely imprisoning me, trying to alienate my child from my parents, cheating and refusing to stop cheating, continuously lying to court officials, and a million other things.
> You are the LAST person that should be giving advice as your judgment is atrocious.





wilderness said:


> You defend an abuser trying to destroy lives and I am the one with a credibility problem? I cant believe you would even have the gall to say that.


Wilderness, what do you want here?

So far there are now three main strands to this thread,

1. What you should do about you lover and her husband.
2. A discussion of comparative religions.
3. Your ex wife and who was to blame for the acrimonious end to your last marriage.

I am not sure we can discuss all three in the one thread. Since this is your thread, and I am here to try and help you, do you want to consider which of these you want help with so we can keep the thread focussed?


----------



## Zanne

Oh my goodness, lower your torches and pitchforks people!

The man admitted that he was not the perfect husband, he has asked for forgiveness for the way he treated people on this board and in the title of this thread he admits he has been hypocritical. Most importantly, he is seeking advice and counsel. He has been sincere about that and so I think he deserves to be treated with a little more respect.

Wilderness, He is risen! You are loved.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> It depends what Wilderness wants. He said he is seeking God's will, so I gave him the clear teaching of the bible.
> 
> Side comment. We have a woman who made a commitment to marriage and now wants to move on, for her happiness, regardless of the impact on husband and child. We have a man who has slept with her behind her husband's back and is now struggling with how much he can do towards having a relationship with her. The husband is in for a world of pain and there is data out there to suggest the divorce will negatively impact the child. The teaching of the bible says "This is wrong." I don't personally think that the bible is out of date in this situation at all, apart from espousing a level of moral accountability that is unfashionably high. This is not a marriage where we have any evidence of abse or whatever. Just a wife who is willing to cheat, and a man who is wiling to help her.


Well she seems to think that everyone will be better off in the long run, but that may be foggy thinking. I will say this, in my heart I am not sure if ME telling her husband is the right thing.


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> I have lost every ounce of respect that I ever had for you. For you to defend an abuser is so outrageously contradictory to everything that you claim to stand for. My ex wife is most certainly not afraid of me. That's ridiculous as I haven't even spoken with her since December 2012. What she is afraid of is that I will hold her accountable for robbing my mother, physically abusing me, trying to alienate me from my child, falsely accusing my whole family, falsely imprisoning me, trying to alienate my child from my parents, *cheating and refusing to stop cheating*, continuously lying to court officials, and a million other things.
> You are the LAST person that should be giving advice as your judgment is atrocious.


No matter how flat a pancake, it has two sides.

We don't know your ex-wife's side of anything. Just your rants. 

I think it is pretty interesting that you would even post the part about HER cheating.
YOU BOTH CHEATED, you BOTH FORNICATED, you BOTH COMMITTED ADULTERY, you BOTH LUSTED, you BOTH COVETED!

You just don't think a one night stand (having sex with someone other than your wife) is infidelity/adultery/being unfaithful. But clearly your god does, and so does everyone else posting here.

Two wrongs certainly don't make a right.

You claim to be so devastated by your ex-wife, yet you did to this Married woman what you so hate your X for doing.

You are going in circles.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> Well she seems to think that everyone will be better off in the long run, but that may be foggy thinking. *I will say this, in my heart I am not sure if ME telling her husband is the right thing.*


I agree with the bolded part. This has been discussed in CWI many times with mixed responses. Many feel if a divorce is inevitable that it will only serve to cause more pain to the spouse who is being dumped. I feel this would only be in the case of a ONS, not something more involved and long term.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> Oh my goodness, lower your torches and pitchforks people!
> 
> The man admitted that he was not the perfect husband, he has asked for forgiveness for the way he treated people on this board and in the title of this thread he admits he has been hypocritical. Most importantly, he is seeking advice and counsel. He has been sincere about that and so I think he deserves to be treated with a little more respect.
> 
> Wilderness, He is risen! You are loved.


Wow. I am overwhelmed by your kindness and support, Zanne. Thank you. Again, I cant believe what a pompous asa I was to you, yet you reward kindness for evil. That's a very good quality you have there! 

The.hardest part of this whole thing is being blamed for the abuse that my ex and her mother have inflicted upon me and my family.
Can you imagine if a battered woman came to this forum and posters started to blame her- I.e.-'you made him do it '? There would be an uproar. Yet my ex physically abused me AND robbed my mother AND ha
d me falsely imprisoned AND has been abusive to my parents AND has tried to destroy my relationship with my daughter AND continues to lie to 
court officials AND harassed my whole family AND she cheated, blamed me for it and refused to stop AND she continues to try and entrap me etc etc etc...

But I must have made her do it, and apparently so must have my mother father brother sister in law grandmother and ex girlfriend.


----------



## Zanne

Unique Username said:


> No matter how flat a pancake, it has two sides.
> 
> We don't know your ex-wife's side of anything. Just your rants.
> 
> I think it is pretty interesting that you would even post the part about HER cheating.
> YOU BOTH CHEATED, you BOTH FORNICATED, you BOTH COMMITTED ADULTERY, you BOTH LUSTED, you BOTH COVETED!
> 
> You just don't think a one night stand (having sex with someone other than your wife) is infidelity/adultery/being unfaithful. But clearly your god does, and so does everyone else posting here.
> 
> Two wrongs certainly don't make a right.
> 
> You claim to be so devastated by your ex-wife, yet you did to this Married woman what you so hate your X for doing.
> 
> You are going in circles.


IMO, he believes her infidelity is worse because it was done with malicious intent. She outright refused to stop. I agree that two wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> Well she seems to think that everyone will be better off in the long run, but that may be foggy thinking. I will say this, in my heart I am not sure if ME telling her husband is the right thing.


So, who is your allegiance to here? Your God or your girlfriend? Your married girlfriend.....

Are you still NC with her?


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> Wow. I am overwhelmed by your kindness and support, Zanne. Thank you. Again, I cant believe what a pompous asa I was to you, yet you reward kindness for evil. That's a very good quality you have there!
> 
> The.hardest part of this whole thing is being blamed for the abuse that my ex and her mother have inflicted upon me and my family.
> Can you imagine if a battered woman came to this forum and posters started to blame her- I.e.-'you made him do it '? There would be an uproar. Yet my ex physically abused me AND robbed my mother AND ha
> d me falsely imprisoned AND has been abusive to my parents AND has tried to destroy my relationship with my daughter AND continues to lie to
> court officials AND harassed my whole family AND she cheated, blamed me for it and refused to stop AND she continues to try and entrap me etc etc etc...
> 
> But I must have made her do it, and apparently so must have my mother father brother sister in law grandmother and ex girlfriend.


Wilderness, I believe you, and here's why: I personally have two friends who have went through very similar experiences as you have described. Unfortunately, the courts in my county are not favorable to dad's rights. I think it is appalling to imply that women are not capable of being abusive, coniving, and guilty of manipulating the courts, all to get what they want and most often it has nothing to do with the best interest of the children caught in the middle.

Having said that, you do sound like a victim in that you are letting what she did to you, control you. I hope you can work on yourself in that respect. And please never give up on having a relationship with your daughter. That should be your focus. She is a victim as well.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> IMO, he believes her infidelity is worse because it was done with malicious intent. She outright refused to stop. I agree that two wrongs don't make a right.


Her infidelity was 6 weeks before we were to be reunited as a family under the same roof. When I discovered it her reaction was to become enraged at me and file a restraining order. I didn't even know what she wanted to do as far as the other man. I was never allowed to discuss it with her because of the restraining order. To this day she has never given me an explanation or apology. She went OVERNIGHT from supposedly loving me and wanting our family to work, looking at apartments with me, having my daughter think we were going to be back together, to total hatred. She also denied that we were together to everyone she knows - even me. This despite the fact that we had just come back from a family vacation, I was paying all her bills, we were looking at apartments, etc etc

Yes I did have ONS but I didn't blame her or use the revelation of my mistakes as an excuse to hate her or try and destroy her.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> So, who is your allegiance to here? Your God or your girlfriend? Your married girlfriend.....
> 
> Are you still NC with her?


I told you,.Wazza, my allegiance is to the Lord even if I failed Him. I just don't understand how if a man puts away a wife for fornication that another man can not lawfully have her in the future. I'm not saying you are wrong but I want to think about it some more and talk to my Pastor.

As to NC it hasn't been 100% perfect but both of us are fighting this thing.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> Wilderness, I believe you, and here's why: I personally have two friends who have went through very similar experiences as you have described. Unfortunately, the courts in my county are not favorable to dad's rights. I think it is appalling to imply that women are not capable of being abusive, coniving, and guilty of manipulating the courts, all to get what they want and most often it has nothing to do with the best interest of the children caught in the middle.
> 
> Having said that, you do sound like a victim in that you are letting what she did to you, control you. I hope you can work on yourself in that respect. And please never give up on having a relationship with your daughter. That should be your focus. She is a victim as well.


Zanne Ive fought so hard for my daughter. Ive spent every last dollar I had and been back and forth to court dozens of times. My ex wants me out of the picture - she wants me to sign away my rights as a father. That's what all these allegations are about. Ill never give up on her but my faith in the system is ZEro. I do have faith in the Lord God, however.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> I told you,.Wazza, my allegiance is to the Lord even if I failed Him. I just don't understand how if a man puts away a wife for fornication that another man can not lawfully have her in the future. I'm not saying you are wrong but I want to think about it some more and talk to my Pastor.
> 
> As to NC it hasn't been 100% perfect but both of us are fighting this thing.


Wilderness, it doesn't matter what you tell me. It matters what you do about obeying God.

You are not NC, therefore you are making things worse. Have you had sex again?

I think I could answer your question about why another man can't have the woman who was put away for fornication. (Or should we say thrown out for cheating). The answer is obvious. You are really foggy if you can't see it. But what are you doing? Are you trying to work out what the bible says? Or are you accepting what it says and trying to decide whether you agree? I can work with either position. I am asking so I can tailor my posts.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> Wilderness, it doesn't matter what you tell me. It matters what you do about obeying God.
> 
> You are not NC, therefore you are making things worse. Have you had sex again?
> 
> I think I could answer your question about why another man can't have the woman who was put away for fornication. (Or should we say thrown out for cheating). The answer is obvious. You are really foggy if you can't see it. But what are you doing? Are you trying to work out what the bible says? Or are you accepting what it says and trying to decide whether you agree? I can work with either position. I am asking so I can tailor my posts.


.
I know I shouldn't have broken NC. It was a few texts.but I'm back on the right track. Please do answer the question as I legitimately don't 
understand


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> Wilderness, it doesn't matter what you tell me. It matters what you do about obeying God.
> 
> I think I could answer your question about why another man can't have the woman who was put away for fornication. (Or should we say thrown out for cheating). The answer is obvious. You are really foggy if you can't see it. But what are you doing? Are you trying to work out what the bible says? Or are you accepting what it says and trying to decide whether you agree? I can work with either position. I am asking so I can tailor my posts.


Wazza -

I also have to ask you another question- haven't you previously advised Zanne to get a divorce? How does that make any sense if she can never lawfully have sex again - for her whole life?


----------



## Maricha75

wilderness said:


> .
> *I know I shouldn't have broken NC. It was a few texts.*but I'm back on the right track. Please do answer the question as I legitimately don't
> understand


And that's why some have said to confess to her husband. I'm assuming she has told him noting, correct? Still living with him, as his wife? He believes their marriage is just fine, or "status quo", at the very least? I don't recall reading, but does she profess to be a Christian? Does he? I'm not asking "are they?", but rather, "do they (either of them) SAY they are?"... There is a difference...


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> .
> I know I shouldn't have broken NC. It was a few texts.but I'm back on the right track. Please do answer the question as I legitimately don't
> understand


The woman wants a relationship with you. Now anyway. So God says "Commit to the marriage and no you can't remarry if you do the wrong thing." If the law were changed as you want, it would become "commit to the marriage, but if you want to change husbands, bonk the man you are interested in, tell your current husband, and get him to throw you out. Then you are clear to be with the new guy." Hardly a strong incentive for upright behaviour.

Wilderness, I am not black and white on this stuff. For example, you know I eventually advised Zanne divorce was her best option on her thread. But not here. You should have no part of helping this woman destroy her marriage. If she wants to do that let it be on her head.


----------



## techmom

Well, according to the WW, the husband moved out. I'm not surprised that they can't keep NC, these are two people who deserve each other. Lord only knows what the lady is not telling Wilderness, but he chooses to demonize his ex for doing the same thing.:rofl:


----------



## wilderness

Maricha75 said:


> And that's why some have said to confess to her husband. I'm assuming she has told him noting, correct? Still living with him, as his wife? He believes their marriage is just fine, or "status quo", at the very least? I don't recall reading, but does she profess to be a Christian? Does he? I'm not asking "are they?", but rather, "do they (either of them) SAY they are?"... There is a difference...


No he doesn't think nothing is wrong. He thinks he is getting a divorce as far as I know (and of course I know it. would be wrong of me to reach out to her and get the details). But the way I understand it the marriage has been in big trouble due to lack of chemistry. Last I heard they were talking seperation /divorce.
I don't think they say they are Christian although she seems yo have an interest in God.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> Wazza -
> 
> I also have to ask you another question- haven't you previously advised Zanne to get a divorce? How does that make any sense if she can never lawfully have sex again - for her whole life?



Her situation was so toxic that I think it was the lesser evil to her husband and kids. She was not going to obey. She fully intended to continue contact with OM, including sex, lawful or not,

Do I think God will bless her decisions? No. I think she is in for a huge amount of pain down the track. But nothing anyone did could stop her. My advice was all about damage control.

So if you say to me "I am not going to obey that teaching" as she did, I will work on the beat ways to minimise pain to the husband and child in all of this, (I assume they are innocent of any crime). But you asked what is God's will. And I gave you what the bible says is a teaching directly from the mouth of Jesus Christ during his time in earth.

I don't think God makes up capricious rules for fun. I think his rules on sex are so strong because he knows how powerful it is. You are looking for wiggle room, and sorry, he hasn't left you any.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> The woman wants a relationship with you. Now anyway. So God says "Commit to the marriage and no you can't remarry if you do the wrong thing." If the law were changed as you want, it would become "commit to the marriage, but if you want to change husbands, bonk the man you are interested in, tell your current husband, and get him to throw you out. Then you are clear to be with the new guy." Hardly a strong incentive for upright behaviour.
> 
> Wilderness, I am not black and white on this stuff. For example, you know I eventually advised Zanne divorce was her best option on her thread. But not here. You should have no part of helping this woman destroy her marriage. If she wants to do that let it be on her head.


I totally hear you and I agree! The only defense I have is that I did not have sex with her to intentionally circumvent His law. I get it, though... I shouldn't be trying to get her to divorce. And you may not believe this but I have encouraged.her multiple times to give her husband a chance tovwin her back.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> Well she seems to think that everyone will be better off in the long run, but that may be foggy thinking.





wilderness said:


> I don't think they say they are Christian although she seems yo have an interest in God.


Just be clear, you are considering spiritual advice from someone who does not profess allegiance to your God. 

No doubt you know the biblical teaching in marrying a non believer?


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> I totally hear you and I agree! The only defense I have is that I did not have sex with her to intentionally circumvent His law. I get it, though... I shouldn't be trying to get her to divorce. And you may not believe this but I have encouraged.her multiple times to give her husband a chance tovwin her back.



The only encouragement you can give her is total no contact. If she has feelings for you, every contact just makes it harder for her. However much you may want to help her in other ways, you can't.

As for having sex, what is done is done. You can't change the past. You need to out your energies into changing the future.


----------



## wilderness

techmom said:


> Well, according to the WW, the husband moved out. I'm not surprised that they can't keep NC, these are two people who deserve each other. Lord only knows what the lady is not telling Wilderness, but he chooses to demonize his ex for doing the same thing.:rofl:


When you say that I am 'demonizing' my ex you are defending an abuser that is actively trying to destroy lives.


----------



## techmom

wilderness said:


> When you say that I am 'demonizing' my ex you are defending an abuser that is actively trying to destroy lives.


Ok, so give us examples of how she is doing that, besides having you thrown in jail. I'm tired of hearing about how she is abusive without being given any concrete evidence.


----------



## techmom

wilderness said:


> Wazza -
> 
> I also have to ask you another question- haven't you previously advised Zanne to get a divorce? How does that make any sense if she can never lawfully have sex again - for her whole life?


Well that is the price she pays for leading an adulterous life. God does not want adulterers to have happy sex lives, only his faithful who know how to keep it in their pants.


----------



## JCD

wilderness said:


> Well she seems to think that everyone will be better off in the long run, but that may be foggy thinking. I will say this, in my heart I am not sure if ME telling her husband is the right thing.


What have you advised other cheaters to do?

What your heart is telling you isn't about what is right or wrong. it is about what is easy or hard.

This is hard. And yet you probably advised people to do this.

So...follow your 'objective' advice to other people...for yourself.

Otherwise this is a cop out.


----------



## Unique Username

A large number of wayward spouses claim no chemistry, lack of sex with their spouse

when, in fact, they have plenty of sex at home and plenty of chemistry 

they just want some strange....

or, in your case...some from a previous relationship


----------



## wilderness

techmom said:


> Well, according to the WW, the husband moved out. I'm not surprised that they can't keep NC, these are two people who deserve each other. Lord only knows what the lady is not telling Wilderness, but he chooses to demonize his ex for doing the same thing.:rofl:


Thank you for asking. I am going to give you a quick list, which is by no means exhaustive:

1. She tried to bribe/extort my mother and I out of a large sum of money. When we refused to give it to her, she drove to the police station and filed a criminal verbal assault charge against me. Please keep in mind, I have a copy of the original police report. The original incident had 2 police as witnesses. There was nothing about assault in the report. In fact, she and I both signed a document saying that no crime was committed! Her story only changed AFTER we wouldn't give her money. I have a copy of the original police report that I would be more than happy to provide to anyone that PMs me. This is why I went to jail.
2. She punched me multiple times in the face with a closed fist once we started having marriage problems. I called the police but I was convinced to not press charges against her by her mother. I did not fight back AT ALL.
3. She tried to run me over with a car. As luck would have it, the police witnessed that event. Again, I foolishly decided not to press charges against her. If I had pressed it, she could have been arrested for attempted murder.
4. She robbed my mother of 2500$. By this time I knew it would be a mistake to not press charges but my mother didn't. Unfortunately she decided to not have my x arrested. She also flat out refused to repay my mother the money she had stolen.
5. She falsely accused my father of abusing my brother and I when she got angry with him. This was weeks after my father paid for a flight to NC to see him for a family vacation.
6. She had me arrested for a restraining order violation AFTERVSHE CALLED ME. This police took her report, they told her it wasn't a violation because she initiated contact with me from an unknown number, and then she harassed and threatened the police department until they arrested me. I have the voicemail message she left me. She clearly asks me to call her back and threatens that if I don't call her she will.go to the police
. Anyone can PM me and I will let you listen to the message.
7. She wont let me say goodnight to my daughter every night even though I have a court order. Her reasoning is that she wants me to call her house, which would be a violation of the restraining order! 
8. She wouldn't let me see my daughter on my birthday or over the holidays at all.
9. When she dumped me for other man, she decided to cut my parenting time down from 5 nights a week to 2 nights a month.

10. She sent me a court summons for being $3 behindbon my child support. Yes that's correct, three dollars.
11. She attacked my ex girlfriend. She called the police on her in yet another false accusation, called her grandmother and harassed her, and harassed my ex even going so far to leave disparaging comments about her vagina on her community answering machine. Obviously untrue as well.
12. She will not let either of my parents see my daughter outside of the 2 nights per month I have -ever.
13. She has abused my mother with taunting and profanities, and threats of never seeing my daughter again. Repeatedly.

14. She tried to leverage criminal allegations against me to get me to sign away my parental rights. If she is so afraid of me why was she willing to drop all charges and the restraining order in exchange for me signing away my rights?


And this is o ly the beginning.











































anyone that PMs me. I will also


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> A large number of wayward spouses claim no chemistry, lack of sex with their spouse
> 
> when, in fact, they have plenty of sex at home and plenty of chemistry
> 
> they just want some strange....
> 
> or, in your case...some from a previous relationship


I know but she told me this stuff before she cheated.


----------



## Unique Username

How'd you go to prison?

prison is for felonies, jail for misdemeanors.

just curious.

and does the married ow know about all of this?

She might have different feelings about leaving her husband if she knew the entire truth.


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> I know but she told me this stuff before she cheated.


Well duh!!

that's how she got you on her side...willing to fornicate with her.

People lie all the time..especially cheaters. 

You are dissilusioned if you think she isn't lying.


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> How'd you go to prison?
> 
> prison is for felonies, jail for misdemeanors.
> 
> just curious.
> 
> and does the married ow know about all of this?
> 
> She might have different feelings about leaving her husband if she knew the entire truth.


Unman what? Again, I was falsely imprisoned. Falsely, as in I d d absolutely nothing wrong other than refuse to be bribed.


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> Well duh!!
> 
> that's how she got you on her side...willing to fornicate with her.
> 
> People lie all the time..especially cheaters.
> 
> You are dissilusioned if you think she isn't lying.


Well I hope that she didn't lie but I suppose there are people out there that do lie.


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> Unman what? Again, I was falsely imprisoned. Falsely, as in I d d absolutely nothing wrong other than refuse to be bribed.


I read that.

I asked was it a felony or a misdemeanor?
Were you in prison, or, in fact just the County/City jail?

And have you or had you disclosed this drama to the married OW?


----------



## Blondilocks

You chose to not press charges not only once but twice?
Your mother chose not to press charges?

Your choices. If you want to blame someone, look in the mirror. You and your mother enabled her bad behavior. Why?


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> I read that.
> 
> I asked was it a felony or a misdemeanor?
> Were you in prison, or, in fact just the County/City jail?
> 
> And have you or had you disclosed this drama to the married OW?


It was county jail. It was misdemeanor simple verbal assault. Yes she knows. She is totally behind me. The reason for this is that in the past my ex wife and ex girlfriend had a Runin.. my exwife pulled a nutty on my ex girlfriend. She called the police on her for nothing, she called her grandmother and other family members to hurt her, she harassed her and even left vile and untrue messages on her community sneering machine about her vagina. And she also faked being pregnant with my baby.

Basically she tried to destroy her life.


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> Well I hope that she didn't lie but I suppose there are people out there that do lie.


You suppose?

It is more probable than not, that she has, was and is a liar.

Didnt you even post ahout her being a liar, among others things, when you split up the first time? 
You know, before she supposedly "settled" for a man she had no chemistry with...but had enough chemistry to make a baby....


----------



## wilderness

Blondilocks said:


> You chose to not press charges not only once but twice?
> Your mother chose not to press charges?
> 
> Your choices. If you want to blame someone, look in the mirror. You and your mother enabled her bad behavior. Why?


At the time we were trying to be compassionate and kind. We didn't want my daughter to grow up with a mother who had a criminal record. I was hoping that these were mistakes she would learn from. I never dreamer she would do so many horrible things to me and my family.
And again, I think its f 'd up that you try to blame the victim of au h horrible abuse.


----------



## techmom

Wilderness, how do you choose these winners? 

Be honest with yourself, your lover has every reason to lie in order to start an affair and to use you as a catalyst to end her marriage.

Again, I have to ask, how would you advise a woman who was in your lover's shoes and decided to post on the CWI posts?


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> You suppose?
> 
> It is more probable than not, that she has, was and is a liar.
> 
> Didnt you even post ahout her being a liar, among others things, when you split up the first time?
> You know, before she supposedly "settled" for a man she had no chemistry with...but had enough chemistry to make a baby....


No I never knew her to be a liar.


----------



## Blondilocks

From what you have posted, Wilderness, you and your ex-wife must have had the police department on speed dial. Maybe they locked you up so they could get a little rest.


----------



## wilderness

techmom said:


> Wilderness, how do you choose these winners?
> 
> Be honest with yourself, your lover has every reason to lie in order to start an affair and to use you as a catalyst to end her marriage.
> 
> Again, I have to ask, how would you advise a woman who was in your lover's shoes and decided to post on the CWI posts?



I would tell her to quit having sex with AP and give her husband a chance. I would have her husband read nmmng and mmslp. Which I was going to send her a link to but I got blasted for considering trying to help.


----------



## Blondilocks

I'm not blaming the victim. I'm blaming the person who had the means and opportunity to stop the abuse but didn't. After awhile, you cease being a victim and become a volunteer.


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> It was county jail. It was misdemeanor simple verbal assault. Yes she knows. She is totally behind me. The reason for this is that in the past my ex wife and ex girlfriend had a Runin.. my exwife pulled a nutty on my ex girlfriend. She called the police on her for nothing, she called her grandmother and other family members to hurt her, she harassed her and even left vile and untrue messages on her community sneering machine about her vagina. And she also faked being pregnant with my baby.
> 
> Basically she tried to destroy her life.


is the married OW the ex girlfriend the same person?


----------



## wilderness

Blondilocks said:


> From what you have posted, Wilderness, you and your ex-wife must have had the police department on speed dial. Maybe they locked you up so they could get a little rest.


Its funny you say that- the running joke in my family is that my exwife has police on speed dial. I only called them once but when things went bad and she wasn't able to cope she began to resort to calling the police.


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> is the married OW the ex girlfriend the same person?


Yes.


----------



## Unique Username

Well, from all the baloney drama I've been reading here

you need counseling from either an LCSW, Psychiatrist, or psychologist.

you need help in making better choices and help in straightening your shyt out. 

In order to be at least a halfway decent role model for your kid.
and to gain more visitation.

you need a good job, a good place to live...and NEW friends. 
People who arent predisposed to drama and confrontation.

get away from cheaters and liars. 

Own your own part, your own guilt, your own poor judgments of the past. Can't change until you acknowledge and understand those.

If you are drinking, doing drugs or gambling..then you need to stop those. Be clear minded. 

Sounds to me like you have not done the true self-reflection necessary to become whole again.

I'd have zero girlfriends until you've done the work. 
Until you have, you are doing them and yourself a terrible disservice.

you already know you have to just drop the cheater ow married woman who used to be your gf......remember why she was your EX in the first place. 

I will say it again
relationships built on lies and deceit usually end in lies and deceit.

future visitation of your daughter would more than likely be at risk as well


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> In order to be at least a halfway decent role model for your kid.
> and to gain more visitation.
> 
> 
> future visitation of your daughter would more than likely be at risk as well


Did you even read what my ex has done to me and continues to do to me? I should have FULL CUSTODY of her right now. I took care of her when she was colicky. I took care of her.when she was a baby. I should be taking care of her now. She needs me but the courts wont listen to me. I don't understand why no one will hear me. An innocent man ties to jail and sad to say, no one cared.


----------



## pidge70

Wtf is verbal assault?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> Wtf is verbal assault?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's what I said! Apparently its this loophole where all someone has to do is 'feel afraid' without you so much as touching them! They originally tried to put me away for 5 years for the verbal assault! But they dropped it down to 30 days. The worst part is that my ex was NOT afraid. She has punched me in the face before with a closed fist, she knows even then I NEVER raise my hand to a woman - not ever! The police were there, we both had to sign something saying everything was fine ... then 4 days later they asked me for a bunch of money and I said no. They drove right to the police station to take revenge on mee they even told me they were going to do it...and no one cares! Again, I have a copy of the original police report if anyone would like to PM me.


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> Did you even read what my ex has done to me and continues to do to me? I should have FULL CUSTODY of her right now. I took care of her when she was colicky. I took care of her.when she was a baby. I should be taking care of her now. She needs me but the courts wont listen to me. I don't understand why no one will hear me. An innocent man ties to jail and sad to say, no one cared.


Is this really ALL you got from my last post?


----------



## Unique Username

No

nobody cares

you arent going to right that wrong 

dwelling on it and continuing to cry victim will get you 
absolutely NO WHERE

What you CAN DO is work towards showing the COURT that you are not that same person

that you have concrete measures towards being what is necessary to gain back what you have lost

it makes zero difference if 100 people here inTAM were to tell you they care or how sorry they are and you poor sap, you were duped by an evil woman
that would do NOTHING to help you in real life now would it


----------



## Unique Username

Unique Username said:


> Well, from all the baloney drama I've been reading here
> 
> you need counseling from either an LCSW, Psychiatrist, or psychologist.
> 
> you need help in making better choices and help in straightening your shyt out.
> 
> In order to be at least a halfway decent role model for your kid.
> and to gain more visitation.
> 
> you need a good job, a good place to live...and NEW friends.
> People who arent predisposed to drama and confrontation.
> 
> get away from cheaters and liars.
> 
> Own your own part, your own guilt, your own poor judgments of the past. Can't change until you acknowledge and understand those.
> 
> If you are drinking, doing drugs or gambling..then you need to stop those. Be clear minded.
> 
> Sounds to me like you have not done the true self-reflection necessary to become whole again.
> 
> I'd have zero girlfriends until you've done the work.
> Until you have, you are doing them and yourself a terrible disservice.
> 
> you already know you have to just drop the cheater ow married woman who used to be your gf......remember why she was your EX in the first place.
> 
> I will say it again
> relationships built on lies and deceit usually end in lies and deceit.
> 
> future visitation of your daughter would more than likely be at risk as well


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> No
> 
> nobody cares
> 
> you arent going to right that wrong
> 
> dwelling on it and continuing to cry victim will get you
> absolutely NO WHERE
> 
> What you CAN DO is work towards showing the COURT that you are not that same person
> 
> that you have concrete measures towards being what is necessary to gain back what you have lost
> 
> it makes zero difference if 100 people here inTAM were to tell you they care or how sorry they are and you poor sap, you were duped by an evil woman
> that would do NOTHING to help you in real life now would it



Did you hear what I told you? I was falsely imprisoned over an argument in which I barely raised my voice. The facts of the case admit this. Prove to the court that I'm not what person? Someone that would argue? Considering I have proof in the form of witnesses -police officers, no less, that she tried to run me down with a CAR, why should I have to prove anything?
The only things I have lost are due to false allegations, harassment, and lies.


----------



## Zanne

Wilderness, you really have been screwed over by your ex-wife, and that's putting it mildly. However, I think what some are saying here is that you should be damn mad at her for the abuse and for taking away your daughter, but you need to deal with the unhealthy emotions you still carry. It's destroying you from the inside out. You deserve better! But you can't fight evil with evil and still be a good person. Please consider the rest of the advice in UU's post.


----------



## EleGirl

Unique Username said:


> Well duh!!
> 
> that's how she got you on her side...willing to fornicate with her.
> 
> People lie all the time..especially cheaters.
> 
> You are dissilusioned if you think she isn't lying.


It's entirely possible that she is telling the truth. A lot of people who cheat bad marriages and have not been met by their spouse for a long time.

It's also entirely possible that she is re-writing history to justify her cheating.

None of us know which it is.


----------



## EleGirl

Zanne said:


> Wilderness, you really have been screwed over by your ex-wife, and that's putting it mildly. However, I think what some are saying here is that you should be damn mad at her for the abuse and for taking away your daughter, but you need to deal with the unhealthy emotions you still carry. It's destroying you from the inside out. You deserve better! But you can't fight evil with evil and still be a good person. Please consider the rest of the advice in UU's post.


Yep, this is exactly the point.

Our court system is broken to put it mildly. You sadly got caught up in it.

While we can all acknowledge that what happened is wrong, you (meaning wilderness) has to get on with your life and be the very best person you can be. You have to be that for your daughter and for yourself.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> Wilderness, you really have been screwed over by your ex-wife, and that's putting it mildly. However, I think what some are saying here is that you should be damn mad at her for the abuse and for taking away your daughter, but you need to deal with the unhealthy emotions you still carry. It's destroying you from the inside out. You deserve better! But you can't fight evil with evil and still be a good person. Please consider the rest of the advice in UU's post.


No, Zanne. UU does not get it...not at all. Just look at some of the things she said :

"...dwelling on it and continuing to CRY victim..."

CRYING victim, Zanne. Dwelling on it...these have perjorative conatations. Again, is that something you would endorse saying to a female victim of violence? If no, why would you be ok with anyone saying it to me?
If a female friend of yours, a daughter, had to go through the repeated humiliation of body cavity searches, she lost her job, her reputation, her money, her child, her freedom, her dignity, her will to live for a time...I ask you, would you be ok with someone talking that way to that person?

How about this gem :

"What you can do is work towards showing the court that you are not that same person."


Again the perjorative connatation. WHAT type of person? I ask you, Zanne, if your husband PUNCHED you in the face 6,7 times and then tried to get you to pay him all your money, then when you said no he had you arrested claiming you did nothing wrong but make him 'afraid', then you were stripsearched and repeatedly cavity searched, then thrown in MAXIMUM SECURITY jail, to lose your job, your daughter your reputation, how would you feel?


'CRYING VICTIM '. that is rich.


----------



## wilderness

EleGirl said:


> It's entirely possible that she is telling the truth. A lot of people who cheat bad marriages and have not been met by their spouse for a long time.
> 
> It's also entirely possible that she is re-writing history to justify her cheating.
> 
> None of us know which it is.


As long as I don't 'cry victim' I will probably be allright.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> No, Zanne. UU does not get it...not at all. Just look at some of the things she said :
> 
> "...dwelling on it and continuing to CRY victim..."
> 
> CRYING victim, Zanne. Dwelling on it...these have perjorative conatations. Again, is that something you would endorse saying to a female victim of violence? If no, why would you be ok with anyone saying it to me?
> If a female friend of yours, a daughter, had to go through the repeated humiliation of body cavity searches, she lost her job, her reputation, her money, her child, her freedom, her dignity, her will to live for a time...I ask you, would you be ok with someone talking that way to that person?
> 
> How about this gem :
> 
> "What you can do is work towards showing the court that you are not that same person."
> 
> 
> Again the perjorative connatation. WHAT type of person? I ask you, Zanne, if your husband PUNCHED you in the face 6,7 times and then tried to get you to pay him all your money, then when you said no he had you arrested claiming you did nothing wrong but make him 'afraid', then you were stripsearched and repeatedly cavity searched, then thrown in MAXIMUM SECURITY jail, to lose your job, your daughter your reputation, how would you feel?
> 
> 
> 'CRYING VICTIM '. that is rich.


You cannot change what happened. You can be bitter about it and let it cause further damage to your life of you can move in and not let it affect you further. The choice is yours.


----------



## EleGirl

wilderness said:


> As long as I don't 'cry victim' I will probably be allright.


I did not use the term 'cry victim' because I think that you were victimized. That has to be acknowledged as you pointed out in your previous post. 


wilderness said:


> No, Zanne. UU does not get it...not at all. Just look at some of the things she said :
> 
> "...dwelling on it and continuing to CRY victim..."
> 
> CRYING victim, Zanne. Dwelling on it...these have perjorative conatations. Again, is that something you would endorse saying to a female victim of violence? If no, why would you be ok with anyone saying it to me?
> If a female friend of yours, a daughter, had to go through the repeated humiliation of body cavity searches, she lost her job, her reputation, her money, her child, her freedom, her dignity, her will to live for a time...I ask you, would you be ok with someone talking that way to that person?
> 
> How about this gem :
> 
> "What you can do is work towards showing the court that you are not that same person."
> 
> 
> Again the perjorative connatation. WHAT type of person? I ask you, Zanne, if your husband PUNCHED you in the face 6,7 times and then tried to get you to pay him all your money, then when you said no he had you arrested claiming you did nothing wrong but make him 'afraid', then you were stripsearched and repeatedly cavity searched, then thrown in MAXIMUM SECURITY jail, to lose your job, your daughter your reputation, how would you feel?
> 
> 
> 'CRYING VICTIM '. that is rich.


I am both a survivor of domestic violence and rape. If there is one thing that I have learned is that in order to move on with my life I had to “get over it”. By that I mean I cannot allow it to rule the way I look at the world and at most people. I learned some hard lessons from it all, but I’ve had to learn to move on with my life. That’s what a person has to do.


----------



## Maricha75

wilderness said:


> No, Zanne. UU does not get it...not at all. Just look at some of the things she said :
> 
> "...dwelling on it and continuing to CRY victim..."
> 
> CRYING victim, Zanne. Dwelling on it...these have perjorative conatations. Again, is that something you would endorse saying to a female victim of violence? If no, why would you be ok with anyone saying it to me?
> If a female friend of yours, a daughter, had to go through the repeated humiliation of body cavity searches, she lost her job, her reputation, her money, her child, her freedom, her dignity, her will to live for a time...I ask you, would you be ok with someone talking that way to that person?
> 
> How about this gem :
> 
> "What you can do is work towards showing the court that you are not that same person."
> 
> 
> Again the perjorative connatation. WHAT type of person? I ask you, Zanne, if your husband PUNCHED you in the face 6,7 times and then tried to get you to pay him all your money, then when you said no he had you arrested claiming you did nothing wrong but make him 'afraid', then you were stripsearched and repeatedly cavity searched, then thrown in MAXIMUM SECURITY jail, to lose your job, your daughter your reputation, how would you feel?
> 
> 
> 'CRYING VICTIM '. that is rich.


That's not what UU was saying in that post at all. She was saying you can continue dwelling on THAT, and crying out about THAT.... or you can pick up your life, put that trust in GOD, which you say you have. Proverbs 3:5,6 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge Him and HE will direct your paths." My favorite Bible verse of all. Hand it over to HIM. By holding onto the anger, the HATRED, you are pushing God OUT. He's not directing your life, as evidenced by your behavior regarding the the married woman. No, not one of us is blameless... but the only way that will change is if we, myself included, give it ALL over to God. You know this. And this includes your rage toward your ex-wife. You can't pick and choose which things in your life you want to give to Him...and you know this as well.

As for the court thing, what UU was saying is show them you are NOT the man she claims you are. You were incarcerated. Wrongly, I know. But it was still done, and she got the restraining order against you as well. You need to show the courts that you are not the man who is on the record for that restraining order. You need to show them you are not THAT man. By letting your anger take control, you are showing that you ARE that man, and it works against you.

Give it to God. Work through the anger. Show them who you REALLY are... and CONTINUE showing that. Because right now? They see the man on the paper....


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> No, Zanne. UU does not get it...not at all. Just look at some of the things she said :
> 
> "...dwelling on it and continuing to CRY victim..."
> 
> CRYING victim, Zanne. Dwelling on it...these have perjorative conatations. Again, is that something you would endorse saying to a female victim of violence? If no, why would you be ok with anyone saying it to me?
> If a female friend of yours, a daughter, had to go through the repeated humiliation of body cavity searches, she lost her job, her reputation, her money, her child, her freedom, her dignity, her will to live for a time...I ask you, would you be ok with someone talking that way to that person?
> 
> How about this gem :
> 
> "What you can do is work towards showing the court that you are not that same person."
> 
> 
> Again the perjorative connatation. WHAT type of person? I ask you, Zanne, if your husband PUNCHED you in the face 6,7 times and then tried to get you to pay him all your money, then when you said no he had you arrested claiming you did nothing wrong but make him 'afraid', then you were stripsearched and repeatedly cavity searched, then thrown in MAXIMUM SECURITY jail, to lose your job, your daughter your reputation, how would you feel?
> 
> 
> 'CRYING VICTIM '. that is rich.


Well, I took her posts to mean that you should heal yourself in positive ways so you don't feel like a victim. I think in this context, it applies to either gender. Why give your abuser more power?

Not identifying yourself as a victim doesn't mean you don't have scars. The frustrating part of the process is knowing how powerless you are to prevent it from happening again. Seriously unfair.

The court comment must have hurt because you shouldn't have to be revictimized by proving anything to the courts. But you may find yourself inside a courtroom again as you continue your custody battle. I believe UU's intent was directed at that possibility.


----------



## Blondilocks

Wilderness, get yourself a GOOD lawyer and start legally threatening your ex-wife and the cops she manipulates.


----------



## Unique Username

What Zanne and Maricha and Elegirl have said is EXACTLY my point.

In order to change visitation or Custody - you would go to court.
They don't care that you were supposedly wrongly accused and imprisoned. Court findings and sentence has already been complete. 

SO - the best possible thing to do is work on fixing their perception of you.

In order to get more visitation or to gain the custody arrangement you want - you have to prove that you are a STABLE parental role for your child.
I understand you feel wronged by everybody and everything.
but dwelling on it does zero to help you.
Festering anger (or trying to put your rage against me) isn't going to fix anything at all.
You need counseling to deal with your alleged abuse, incarceration, your view of the world and your future.

You just don't like the words I use to convey the same sentiment.

Your attitude of being a victim and wronged - will get you no where by the court system. They only care about the past judgements against you and how you aren't THAT person.
whether you ever really were or not - makes no difference to them. Dwelling on it - as I said - means you are not moving forward. Being stagnant is your enemy.
Whether right or wrong - they see what you have been charged with and incarcerated for. So, you have to prove that you are now different from that.

I would, indeed, say the same thing to whichever gender of person has your circumstance and attitude.

I actually gave really sound advice as to how to move towards the goals YOU said you wanted.

Counseling, good job, good place to live, new friends who support you and don't drag you down.


----------



## wilderness

Maricha75 said:


> That's not what UU was saying in that post at all. She was saying you can continue dwelling on THAT, and crying out about THAT.... or you can pick up your life, put that trust in GOD, which you say you have. Proverbs 3:5,6 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge Him and HE will direct your paths." My favorite Bible verse of all. Hand it over to HIM. By holding onto the anger, the HATRED, you are pushing God OUT. He's not directing your life, as evidenced by your behavior regarding the the married woman. No, not one of us is blameless... but the only way that will change is if we, myself included, give it ALL over to God. You know this. And this includes your rage toward your ex-wife. You can't pick and choose which things in your life you want to give to Him...and you know this as well.
> 
> As for the court thing, what UU was saying is show them you are NOT the man she claims you are. You were incarcerated. Wrongly, I know. But it was still done, and she got the restraining order against you as well. You need to show the courts that you are not the man who is on the record for that restraining order. You need to show them you are not THAT man. By letting your anger take control, you are showing that you ARE that man, and it works against you.
> 
> Give it to God. Work through the anger. Show them who you REALLY are... and CONTINUE showing that. Because right now? They see the man on the paper....



You are so right about turning this impossible situation over to God. As to 'showing them who you are' its been tried a million times over. The prevailing reccomendation is to be humble in body language, say as little as possible, don't challenge your accuser in any way, be the reasonable one, etc...
this strategy has utterly and completely failed thus far. My ex and her mother are just too skilled at manipulating the system. I have decided that I need to get my story out there, somehow. The facts need to be heard. But it feels like I'm fighting the giants.


As to moving on, not possible unless I want to go back to jail for a long time. My ex is not going to stop falsely accusing me.


----------



## wilderness

Blondilocks said:


> Wilderness, get yourself a GOOD lawyer and start legally threatening your ex-wife and the cops she manipulates.


Its been tried and its being tried. I am on lawyer number 4. I have zero faith in lawyers now.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> Well, I took her posts to mean that you should heal yourself in positive ways so you don't feel like a victim. I think in this context, it applies to either gender. Why give your abuser more power?
> 
> Not identifying yourself as a victim doesn't mean you don't have scars. The frustrating part of the process is knowing how powerless you are to prevent it from happening again. Seriously unfair.
> 
> The court comment must have hurt because you shouldn't have to be revictimized by proving anything to the courts. But you may find yourself inside a courtroom again as you continue your custody battle. I believe UU's intent was directed at that possibility.


Zanne-

You don't understand. This is not something that happened to me, its something that is happening to me. When I go.to work I have to worry about my ex harassing my boss and HR to try to get me fired. Something that she tries to do all the time. When its my turn to have my daughter, I have to worry about what my ex will try to keep me away from her. And then when they do keep her away, I have to worry about her and her attorney claiming I'm abusive by trying to get my time back. Wheni don't get my goodnight phonecall, because I don't want to violate the restraining order, I will be accused of neglecting my daughter. My ex is constantly contacting my mother to try and cause fights between us. My ex and her mother are experts at this and I have to fight everyday. I am still fighting 2 cases in court PLUS probate court so there is no extra money to entertain my daughter. 





I may have gotten put of jail, but I'm still in prison.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> You are so right about turning this impossible situation over to God. As to 'showing them who you are' its been tried a million times over. The prevailing reccomendation is to be humble in body language, say as little as possible, don't challenge your accuser in any way, be the reasonable one, etc...
> this strategy has utterly and completely failed thus far. My ex and her mother are just too skilled at manipulating the system. I have decided that I need to get my story out there, somehow. The facts need to be heard. But it feels like I'm fighting the giants.
> 
> 
> As to moving on, not possible unless I want to go back to jail for a long time. My ex is not going to stop falsely accusing me.


Maybe sharing your story here and elsewhere will have positive results. I pray this is so. You never know who may be able to help you. I trust you read at dadsdivorce.com?


----------



## TikiKeen

hang on...I've only skimmed this discussion, but if she has an RO or PO against you, isn't she breaking it by calling your work or your mother? In my state, it certainly is a violation, which can nullify the order.

I'd have work keep careful records, for sure, and present them as you go along to bolster your case. Taking these actions is one way to not feel (or be) victimized any more.


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> What Zanne and Maricha and Elegirl have said is EXACTLY my point.
> 
> In order to change visitation or Custody - you would go to court.
> They don't care that you were supposedly wrongly accused and imprisoned. Court findings and sentence has already been complete.
> 
> SO - the best possible thing to do is work on fixing their perception of you.
> 
> 
> You need counseling to deal with your alleged abuse, incarceration, your view of the world and your future.
> 
> You just don't like the words I use to convey the same sentiment.
> 
> Your attitude of being a victim and wronged - will get you no where by the court system. They only care about the past judgements against you and how you aren't THAT person.
> whether you ever really were or not - makes no difference to them. Dwelling on it - as I said - means you are not moving forward. Being stagna
> 
> I actually gave really sound advice as to how to move towards the goals YOU said you wanted.
> 
> Counseling, good job, good place to live, new friends who support you and don't drag you down.


The evidence that I am an unstable parent is ZERO. The evidence that my ex is an unstable parent is substantial. If this were about evidence I would have destroyed her in court years ago. Its not about evidence it is about gender.


----------



## wilderness

TikiKeen said:


> hang on...I've only skimmed this discussion, but if she has an RO or PO against you, isn't she breaking it by calling your work or your mother? In my state, it certainly is a violation, which can nullify the order.
> 
> I'd have work keep careful records, for sure, and present them as you go along to bolster your case. Taking these actions is one way to not feel (or be) victimized any more.


I have already tried this angle and its gotten me nowhere. I even had a family member get ahold of the chief of police. Edit to add: I have plenty of evidence but it seems no one will look at it.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> Maybe sharing your story here and elsewhere will have positive results. I pray this is so. You never know who may be able to help you. I trust you read at dadsdivorce.com?


Yes I do.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> Zanne-
> 
> You don't understand. This is not something that happened to me, its something that is happening to me. When I go.to work I have to worry about my ex harassing my boss and HR to try to get me fired. Something that she tries to do all the time. When its my turn to have my daughter, I have to worry about what my ex will try to keep me away from her. And then when they do keep her away, I have to worry about her and her attorney claiming I'm abusive by trying to get my time back. Wheni don't get my goodnight phonecall, because I don't want to violate the restraining order, I will be accused of neglecting my daughter. My ex is constantly contacting my mother to try and cause fights between us. My ex and her mother are experts at this and I have to fight everyday. I am still fighting 2 cases in court PLUS probate court so there is no extra money to entertain my daughter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I may have gotten put of jail, but I'm still in prison.


Yeah, I'm beginning to realize this based on what you have written today. It's like they live for making your life miserable! No words to describe their state of mind. Truly awful. You need to get ahead of them in their conniving ways but I understand the risk of collateral damage is high.


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## Unique Username

buy your child a cheap prepaid cell phone. Then she can call you whenever she wants and you have no contact with her mother.
Just because Mom has a restraining order, she cannot legally keep you from having contact with your child.
That would be parental alienation.
If they claim she is too young, well then it is a phone she keeps charged at her bedside and uses it to call you every evening to say good night.

Good luck to you.

This is all very exhausting. 

With what you just wrote - I wonder how you had time to even have sex with the now married ex-girlfriend.


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## pidge70

Do you live in a small town?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> buy your child a cheap prepaid cell phone. Then she can call you whenever she wants and you have no contact with her mother.
> Just because Mom has a restraining order, she cannot legally keep you from having contact with your child.
> That would be parental alienation.
> If they claim she is too young, well then it is a phone she keeps charged at her bedside and uses it to call you every evening to say good night.
> 
> Good luck to you.
> 
> This is all very exhausting.
> 
> With what you just wrote - I wonder how you had time to even have sex with the now married ex-girlfriend.


That's a great idea. I don't think it will work yet as she is only 4, but as she gets older, definitely.


----------



## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> Do you live in a small town?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Medium sized. I'm not sure if this is what you are getting at but I'm pretty sure they know someone behind the scenes that is helping them mess up my life.


----------



## Maricha75

wilderness said:


> That's a great idea. I don't think it will work yet as she is only 4, but as she gets older, definitely.


Yes it will. Even at 4. Get the phone, show her how to use it. Program YOUR number on speed dial #1. Show her how to call daddy. I GUARANTEE a 4 year old can do this, EASILY! My son was able to locate porn on a cell phone, just by clicking on the ad of a game...and he was only 2 or 3 at the time! Yes, we watched more closely after that lol. But the point is that at 4 you CAN show her how to do it, and she can understand it.


----------



## wilderness

Maricha75 said:


> Yes it will. Even at 4. Get the phone, show her how to use it. Program YOUR number on speed dial #1. Show her how to call daddy. I GUARANTEE a 4 year old can do this, EASILY! My son was able to locate porn on a cell phone, just by clicking on the ad of a game...and he was only 2 or 3 at the time! Yes, we watched more closely after that lol. But the point is that at 4 you CAN show her how to do it, and she can understand it.


I will absolutely do this. Now I already KNOW ahead of time that my ex will 'lose ' the phone. Anything that serves to create a better relationship between me and my daughter is heavily resisted. But I will try.


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## Maricha75

Also, when you get the phone, make sure you print out your calls at the end of the month. ALL calls. They show "Calls in" and "Calls out". Even if it goes to voicemail, it SHOULD show in the list, anyway... and leave a message anyway. That way, you can show you have TRIED to call. And, if your ex-wife calls YOU, it shows there as well. I know, you have tried to use her calls against her. Keep the voicemails. All of them. The ones your ex-wife leaves as well as the ones on your daughter's phone. I wouldn't give your ex-wife access to that voicemail, either. She would delete them... and you want that proof that you tried to call her.


----------



## wilderness

Maricha75 said:


> Also, when you get the phone, make sure you print out your calls at the end of the month. ALL calls. They show "Calls in" and "Calls out". Even if it goes to voicemail, it SHOULD show in the list, anyway... and leave a message anyway. That way, you can show you have TRIED to call. And, if your ex-wife calls YOU, it shows there as well. I know, you have tried to use her calls against her. Keep the voicemails. All of them. The ones your ex-wife leaves as well as the ones on your daughter's phone. I wouldn't give your ex-wife access to that voicemail, either. She would delete them... and you want that proof that you tried to call her.


The last time I was in a similar situation.this strategy failed. I had filed a contempt motion against my ex for not accepting my goodnight phonecalls. I had my call records AND 2 witnesses that both took a day out of work. The judge inexplicably wouldn't allow the witnesses nor would she look at the call records. She denied my motion in a display of pure craziness. I truly believe she denied the motion due yo the ridiculous accusations that their lawyer made against me that day, none of which were true.


----------



## Maricha75

This is different. You are calling, or being called from, a phone YOU will have provided, so as NOT to cause a problem for your ex when it comes to the restraining order, etc. YOu are paying for this so you can talk to your child. Teaching your daughter how to use the phone, giving it to her, talking to her, all show you are TRYING to maintain the relationship with your daughter. Tbh, I would record all conversations with your daughter, if you can. And if it would be admissible, record when your ex calls you. Not just the voicemails, but when you pick up because you don't recognize the number or whatever. See, that works well when it's YOUR DAUGHTER'S phone, because if she takes it and starts ranting at you, you will have it recorded as well. time and date for everything, matched up with the phone records. Seriously, no matter how fruitless you think the efforts may be, DO IT ANYWAY. You MAY run into that ONE judge who looks at it all and says "Hey, wait a minute here...this doesn't seem right...." And you will finally get it sorted out correctly. But if you do no more, nothing will change...


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> Yes, you are right. I definitely betrayed her. In other ways, too. Not just sexually. Honestly I was a pretty lousy husband but a very good father.





wilderness said:


> I have lost every ounce of respect that I ever had for you. For you to defend an abuser is so outrageously contradictory to everything that you claim to stand for. My ex wife is most certainly not afraid of me. That's ridiculous as I haven't even spoken with her since December 2012. What she is afraid of is that I will hold her accountable for robbing my mother, physically abusing me, trying to alienate me from my child, falsely accusing my whole family, falsely imprisoning me, trying to alienate my child from my parents, cheating and refusing to stop cheating, continuously lying to court officials, and a million other things.
> You are the LAST person that should be giving advice as your judgment is atrocious.


^^There is a different spirit between the two posts above.

Since you have no respect for me wilderness I'm going to be really blunt.

I think you were abusive to your ex wife and she has the restraining order legitimately. I don't think people spend 30 days in jail for humility, gentleness, and kindness. And I see no humility in the second post.

The fact that your church wanted to make you a leader makes me sick to my stomach. I dropped out of church a year or so ago due to my own husband's track record while he was a church leader. I have no use for a church which produces "fruit" of men who cheat, abuse, and blame the ones they made vows to honor and cherish.

As for your stories of your wife being abusive toward you and your gf. The MC told us that when a wife is angry, that is evidence that she still loves her H. It's the apathetic ones who have checked out of the M. So you blew it when your W was angry. Humility like the first post above would have softened her heart.

I predict any woman who engages in your toxic dance and those she loves are going to be more wreckage in your wake. Hell is on earth in relationships like yours.


----------



## Blonde

Get the chip off your shoulder toward your EX. 

WALK the TALK

and you will earn better access to the child

Or don't and keep up your hell

((((((Shrug)))))))

IMO your daughter is better off not having frequency with a fatherly role model who claims to be a christian and is chock full of bitterness and misogyny

The distance is God's will IMO and I hope her mother teaches her to have a backbone with you when you do get access.


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> ^^There is a different spirit between the two posts above.
> 
> Since you have no respect for me wilderness I'm going to be really blunt.
> 
> I think you were abusive to your ex wife and she has the restraining order legitimately. I don't think people spend 30 days in jail for humility, gentleness, and kindness. And I see no humility in the second post.
> 
> The fact that your church wanted to make you a leader makes me sick to my stomach. I dropped out of church a year or so ago due to my own husband's track record while he was a church leader. I have no use for a church which produces "fruit" of men who cheat, abuse, and blame the ones they made vows to honor and cherish.
> 
> As for your stories of your wife being abusive toward you and your gf. The MC told us that when a wife is angry, that is evidence that she still loves her H. It's the apathetic ones who have checked out of the M. So you blew it when your W was angry. Humility like the first post above would have softened her heart.
> 
> I predict any woman who engages in your toxic dance and those she loves are going to be more wreckage in your wake. Hell is on earth in relationships like yours.


Don't post on my thread ever again. I'm serious. Really, get lost. You are no better than my ex.


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> Get the chip off your shoulder toward your EX.
> 
> WALK the TALK
> 
> and you will earn better access to the child
> 
> Or don't and keep up your hell
> 
> ((((((Shrug)))))))
> 
> IMO your daughter is better off not having frequency with a fatherly role model who claims to be a christian and is chock full of bitterness and misogyny
> 
> The distance is God's will IMO and I hope her mother teaches her to have a backbone with you when you do get access.


You are truly one of the worst people that I've ever run into on any forum, ever.


----------



## Zanne

Blonde said:


> Get the chip off your shoulder toward your EX.
> 
> WALK the TALK
> 
> and you will earn better access to the child
> 
> Or don't and keep up your hell
> 
> ((((((Shrug)))))))
> 
> IMO your daughter is better off not having frequency with a fatherly role model who claims to be a christian and is chock full of bitterness and misogyny
> 
> The distance is God's will IMO and I hope her mother teaches her to have a backbone with you when you do get access.


I disagree that it is God's will to keep a child from her father when there is no abuse involved. What goes on between Wilderness and his ex will surely affect the child, just as it would affect any other child of divorce, but this is no reason that he is not a good father. 

I think you are reaching here, Blonde. And maybe posting out of spite because Wilderness did not appreciate your previous posts? Otherwise I usually do find your posts useful and informative.


----------



## Blonde

His child is 4 and a female.

No spite whatsover, actually.

Out of the bottom of my heart concern and protectiveness toward his daughter.

Thank you God for protecting her! Her daddy has demonstrated here repeatedly that he hates women with an especially deep hatred venom and bitterness toward the child's mother.

What if sometime this 4 yo child triggered a reminder of the mom?

No, no spite whatsoever. The child is safer without him until he gets some therapy.

And OW, somewhere on here he wondered about "leading" you. He expects a submissive wife. Do yourself a favor and read Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men - Lundy Bancroft - Google Books


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> His child is 4 and a female.
> 
> No spite whatsover, actually.
> 
> Out of the bottom of my heart concern and protectiveness toward his daughter.
> 
> Thank you God for protecting her! Her daddy has demonstrated here repeatedly that he hates women with an especially deep hatred venom and bitterness toward the child's mother.
> 
> What if sometime this 4 yo child triggered a reminder of the mom?
> 
> No, no spite whatsoever. The child is safer without him until he gets some therapy.
> 
> And OW, somewhere on here he wondered about "leading" you. He expects a submissive wife. Do yourself a favor and read Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men - Lundy Bancroft - Google Books


You are a seriously screwed up individual and you don't even see it. 
Anyone that would defend the level of abuse that I and my family are enduring is a f-ed up individual. 

You are advocating for physical violence of the worst kind. Now piss off.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> I disagree that it is God's will to keep a child from her father when there is no abuse involved. What goes on between Wilderness and his ex will surely affect the child, just as it would affect any other child of divorce, but this is no reason that he is not a good father.
> 
> I think you are reaching here, Blonde. And maybe posting out of spite because Wilderness did not appreciate your previous posts? Otherwise I usually do find your posts useful and informative.


You are wasting your breath. Blonde likes to talk about fruits and the irony is that we are seeing the fruits of her corrupted mindset, which is based on virulent feminism.

Man gets punched in the face by a woman? Suck it up.
Woman tries to murder man with car. Suck it up.
Woman tries to bribe and extort man. Suck it up.
Woman smears mans name with outrageous and provable lies. Suck it up.
Woman harasses man's employer, family, and friends. Suck it up.
Woman has man falsely imprisoned over a verbal argument in which no one ever even raised their voice. Suck it up.
Woman robs man's family. Suck it up.
Woman tries to destroy man's relationship with child. Suck it up.
Child is suffering because of woman's trying to destroy mans relationship with child. Suck it up.
Woman falsely accuses man's mother, father, stepfather, and ex girlfriend and has a _pattern_ of false accusations against everyone, even her own sister. Suck it up.
Man loses job because of woman's lies, harassment, and accusations. Suck it up.
Woman verbally abuses man's family repeatedly. Suck it up.
Woman tries to destroy man's child's relationship with his parents (child's grandparents). Suck it up.

We are definitely seeing the fruit of Blonde's corruption. 

Suck It Up |


----------



## Blondilocks

Giving the child a phone sounds like a great idea. The odds that the ex-wife would allow the child to keep the phone are slim.


----------



## wilderness

Blondilocks said:


> Giving the child a phone sounds like a great idea. The odds that the ex-wife would allow the child to keep the phone are slim.


I know she won't allow it, but I will still try. I will try anything for my child. Despite what the rabid man hating feminists of the world (like Blonde) say, I would do anything for her. That's why I went to jail. That's why I'm dealing with this horrible abuse. It's for my little girl.


----------



## Blondilocks

It's clear that your love your little girl. It's also clear that you would be wise to dial down the foaming-at-the-mouth anger you have with your ex-wife and certain posters. It reinforces the belief that the RO is necessary.

Don't want to sound flippant, but have you tried meditation or yoga?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

wilderness said:


> You are wasting your breath. Blonde likes to talk about fruits and the irony is that we are seeing the fruits of her corrupted mindset, which is based on virulent feminism.


Virulent feminism?? :scratchhead: I havent seen any of that in her posts. You really do hate women, dont you...I have an ex like that, he needs therapy to this day, and so do you. One bad woman in your life does not define an entire gender.


----------



## wilderness

Blondilocks said:


> It's clear that your love your little girl. It's also clear that you would be wise to dial down the foaming-at-the-mouth anger you have with your ex-wife and certain posters. It reinforces the belief that the RO is necessary.
> 
> Don't want to sound flippant, but have you tried meditation or yoga?


If any restraining order is necessary, it is me having one against her. She is the one that is guilty of abuse, she is the one guilty of violence, and she is the one that continues to abuse me and my family. She is also the one that continues to harm my innocent daughter. I will not shut my mouth, I will not 'suck it up' with a closed lip, as long as this abuse continues.


----------



## wilderness

3Xnocharm said:


> Virulent feminism?? :scratchhead: I havent seen any of that in her posts. You really do hate women, dont you...I have an ex like that, he needs therapy to this day, and so do you. One bad woman in your life does not define an entire gender.


You haven't seen it in any of her posts? Just scroll up. She is defending violence against men. She is defending the harm of an innocent child. She is defending abuse- as long as it's a woman abusing a man. If that's not virulent feminism, I don't know what is.

I do not hate women, but it's very clear that Blonde hates men.


----------



## Blondilocks

Do you have an RO against your ex?


----------



## 2ntnuf

Resources | Parental Alienation Help

Get a very good, tough attorney to help you. You are hand-cuffed by the laws. You must be very careful what you do and how you do it. 

Get into, if you are not already, counseling and talk to a man about these issues. Talk about your own issues and get help for whatever is bothering you, so you can keep up the battle without doing anything prior to thinking it through. 

You must find out what you can legally do in all things, not just with your daughter and ex. Only an attorney, who is on your side, can help you with those things. 

Stay legal in all things you do. Blonde is correct in what she is telling you to some extent. I read some triggered response in her post, but essentially, she is correct. It is how the court and others look at things. It is what you will be up against in all things you do.

You need to learn how to handle that type of attitude from the majority of folks you come into contact with. Know your rights according to the law. Even some of those will not apply to you. There will be loopholes that those in charge can get around the law without recompense.

Never let your guard down. Take a recorder with you, if you want to have sex with a woman. Do not trust anyone, ever, again. The saying, "Trust, but verify", should be tattooed on your eyes so you can always see it. 

That's how serious this is, wilderness. That's why Blonde is correct in what she wrote. Do not let your guard down. Make a concerted effort to get yourself, "right", with God, man, and society. 

You will find that you have to make sacrifices that others do not, because you have this all hanging over your head. You will have to learn to work within these new, "rules", you are learning. This is your life and you cannot go back. 

Get informed. Do the work. Make good choices because whatever you do, if placed before anyone in a position to determine legality, they will be picked apart and what you do will be scrutinized in minute detail. You will always have to answer questions and you will always be under the assumption that you are wrong first, until you prove you are correct. 

This is a gloomy post and I know it. I am sorry, but if you don't keep these things in your mind every time you think about doing or saying something, you will not move forward. Even at that, doing all things correctly, there will always be folks who just will never trust you. Your motives, actions, and words will always be in doubt. You have seen that here. It will be the same everywhere. 

I do not condone violence against women. I am not accusing you of lying. I don't think you condone violence against women. I want you to know that whatever you do, you will find difficulty in. When your daughter is in school and you want to go to functions like a play she is in or something, you will find it difficult to know when they are holding those. You will need to get a relationship started with all these people, letting them know who you are. 

Your daughter's doctors will not give you information unless you prove who you are. You will pay the highest possible child support and every legal loophole will be taken advantage of to get that from you. Face it. Get the knowledge you need to get the best opportunities you can, legally. 

Start now. Get right with yourself. Get into counseling and know that you are a decent person. Build your confidence without building arrogance. Do this one step at a time, consistently proving to yourself that you can handle whatever comes. 

Do not sit back and complain more than you have to. Get yourself on this path now, or you will not have anything in your future. Know also, that you will be paid less for the same work, when all of this gets out. There is nothing you can do about it. You will be considered, unqualified for promotions and movements within companies. You will not be informed of new benefits, of company parties, of many things that would help you. You will have to find a way to get all this information without prejudice, on your own. 

I'm sorry you are going through this, but it is your life now. Get to a counselor and find acceptance, love and respect for yourself. You will likely not find much of if coming from others. If you do, it will be a blessing for a short period of time. Something will end it, so enjoy it while it lasts. You now wear a scarlet letter for life. 

Take care. I do honestly wish you the most fulfilling life possible. I really do. Just remember, it's all up to you.


----------



## wilderness

Blondilocks said:


> Do you have an RO against your ex?


No. I tried to get one, but the judge denied it. I couldn't and still can't believe it. At the time, I knew nothing about the courts. I sat in court watching woman after woman getting restraining orders. The judge never even asked these woman any questions at all. The judge would read the affidavit, then say he was granting the restraining order, and that was it. I assumed he would do the same for me as I had a copy of the police report detailing how the police witnessed her trying to run me down with a car and she could have even been charged with attempted murder.

The judge proceeded to grill me. "Why didn't you file for this restraining order on the day this happened?" 
"How do you know you are in danger?"
And a bunch of other questions that he never asked ANY of the women, most of which were just claiming they were afraid.

Then the judge denied my request.


----------



## wilderness

2ntnuf said:


> Resources | Parental Alienation Help
> 
> Get a very good, tough attorney to help you. You are hand-cuffed by the laws. You must be very careful what you do and how you do it.
> 
> Get into, if you are not already, counseling and talk to a man about these issues. Talk about your own issues and get help for whatever is bothering you, so you can keep up the battle without doing anything prior to thinking it through.
> 
> You must find out what you can legally do in all things, not just with your daughter and ex. Only an attorney, who is on your side, can help you with those things.
> 
> Stay legal in all things you do. Blonde is correct in what she is telling you to some extent. I read some triggered response in her post, but essentially, she is correct. It is how the court and others look at things. It is what you will be up against in all things you do.
> 
> You need to learn how to handle that type of attitude from the majority of folks you come into contact with. Know your rights according to the law. Even some of those will not apply to you. There will be loopholes that those in charge can get around the law without recompense.
> 
> Never let your guard down. Take a recorder with you, if you want to have sex with a woman. Do not trust anyone, ever, again. The saying, "Trust, but verify", should be tattooed on your eyes so you can always see it.
> 
> That's how serious this is, wilderness. That's why Blonde is correct in what she wrote. Do not let your guard down. Make a concerted effort to get yourself, "right", with God, man, and society.
> 
> You will find that you have to make sacrifices that others do not, because you have this all hanging over your head. You will have to learn to work within these new, "rules", you are learning. This is your life and you cannot go back.
> 
> Get informed. Do the work. Make good choices because whatever you do, if placed before anyone in a position to determine legality, they will be picked apart and what you do will be scrutinized in minute detail. You will always have to answer questions and you will always be under the assumption that you are wrong first, until you prove you are correct.
> 
> This is a gloomy post and I know it. I am sorry, but if you don't keep these things in your mind every time you think about doing or saying something, you will not move forward. Even at that, doing all things correctly, there will always be folks who just will never trust you. Your motives, actions, and words will always be in doubt. You have seen that here. It will be the same everywhere.
> 
> I do not condone violence against women. I am not accusing you of lying. I don't think you condone violence against women. I want you to know that whatever you do, you will find difficulty in. When your daughter is in school and you want to go to functions like a play she is in or something, you will find it difficult to know when they are holding those. You will need to get a relationship started with all these people, letting them know who you are.
> 
> Your daughter's doctors will not give you information unless you prove who you are. You will pay the highest possible child support and every legal loophole will be taken advantage of to get that from you. Face it. Get the knowledge you need to get the best opportunities you can, legally.
> 
> Start now. Get right with yourself. Get into counseling and know that you are a decent person. Build your confidence without building arrogance. Do this one step at a time, consistently proving to yourself that you can handle whatever comes.
> 
> Do not sit back and complain more than you have to. Get yourself on this path now, or you will not have anything in your future. Know also, that you will be paid less for the same work, when all of this gets out. There is nothing you can do about it. You will be considered, unqualified for promotions and movements within companies. You will not be informed of new benefits, of company parties, of many things that would help you. You will have to find a way to get all this information without prejudice, on your own.
> 
> I'm sorry you are going through this, but it is your life now. Get to a counselor and find acceptance, love and respect for yourself. You will likely not find much of if coming from others. If you do, it will be a blessing for a short period of time. Something will end it, so enjoy it while it lasts. You now wear a scarlet letter for life.
> 
> Take care. I do honestly wish you the most fulfilling life possible. I really do. Just remember, it's all up to you.


Well, I appreciate the feedback. Just to reiterate for the millionth time, I have never been violent toward a woman. I was never even accused of it (thank God). I have a different viewpoint of this, a much more optimistic one. I would like to get my story out there so everyone knows the truth. Some of my options are- get a major magazine or news show to pick up my story, write a book, write a screenplay, start an internet campaign exposing the truth, etc etc.
I will not live my life hiding in the shadows and pretending that I've done something wrong. I have done nothing wrong.

edit to add: the other thing I plan on doing is filing several lawsuits against the parties that have harmed me.


----------



## Zanne

Blonde said:


> His child is 4 and a female.
> 
> No spite whatsover, actually.
> 
> Out of the bottom of my heart concern and protectiveness toward his daughter.
> 
> Thank you God for protecting her! Her daddy has demonstrated here repeatedly that he hates women with an especially deep hatred venom and bitterness toward the child's mother.
> 
> What if sometime this 4 yo child triggered a reminder of the mom?
> 
> No, no spite whatsoever. The child is safer without him until he gets some therapy.
> 
> And OW, somewhere on here he wondered about "leading" you. He expects a submissive wife. Do yourself a favor and read Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men - Lundy Bancroft - Google Books


Did you read what happened to him?!! Can you not believe that innocent people are abused by the court system for the malicious benefit of another? I sure can.

Blonde, it sounds like all of this has taken place in the past few years... IOW, very recent. The wounds are fresh. And it's his child we are talking about. People tend to be passionate when their children are involved.

Wilderness is capable of love and he is capable of remorse, as he has demonstrated here on this thread in his posts. He is obviously still dealing with the way his marriage ended. How many others on TAM are completely healed and ready to move on from a horrific break up in two years?

IMHO, your advice has been sound up until you outright accused him of being an abuser and hater of ALL women. You are hitting him where it hurts, and you know it. I don't think that's helpful.

Call him out for his ACTIONS, but don't label him. Ugh, I hate labels. People can't be defined that way. There are so many situations and circumstances and we can't know every part of anybody's story, only what is shared here.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> Did you read what happened to him?!! Can you not believe that innocent people are abused by the court system for the malicious benefit of another? I sure can.
> 
> Blonde, it sounds like all of this has taken place in the past few years... IOW, very recent. The wounds are fresh. And it's his child we are talking about. People tend to be passionate when their children are involved.
> 
> Wilderness is capable of love and he is capable of remorse, as he has demonstrated here on this thread in his posts. He is obviously still dealing with the way his marriage ended. How many others on TAM are completely healed and ready to move on from a horrific break up in two years?
> 
> IMHO, your advice has been sound up until you outright accused him of being an abuser and hater of all women. You are hitting him where it hurts, and you know it. I don't think that's helpful.
> 
> Call him out for his ACTIONS, but don't label him. Ugh, I hate labels. People can't be defined that way. There are so many situations and circumstances and we can't know every part of anybody's story, only what is shared here.


I would like to add that I can _prove_ that what I'm saying is the truth. I have mountains of evidence, witnesses, documents, transcripts, etc…

The offer stands to ANYONE whether a member of this forum or not. Contact me by PM and I will _prove_ that me and my family are the victims of human cruelty that most people can't even imagine.


----------



## 2ntnuf

wilderness,

I am not accusing you of anything. I am only telling you what others will think, no matter what you actually did. You must break free from this denial of what is. 

Again, I am not accusing you of anything. 

It doesn't matter what I or anyone believes. It is something many folks will just go to as a default and you cannot spend time proving to anyone that they are wrong. You are wasting time. You must just do all things, the best you can and accept what comes that you cannot change. It is a harsh reality that you need help to accept. 

Please start the work moving forward. Choose carefully what lawsuits you start. You can crucify yourself for nothing and spend all your money to prove something that no one will believe anyway. 

Actions speak louder than words. Do what you can to keep living. Do what you can for yourself and let the rest go. You easily could damage yourself further by pursuing things that will not help you in the end enough to justify what you spend in time, money and self-respect. That's why you need a great attorney and counselor. 

Please consider what I am telling you for your own good. Please understand that I cannot know, nor can anyone else, if you are guilty or innocent of anything and it, to quote a movie line from the eighties, "It just doesn't matter". Please understand I am writing this to try to help you, not harm you further. 

Step back and get perspective with the help of a counselor, therapist, whatever you want to call them. Please, for yourself, do it.


----------



## karole

Instead of lawsuits, why don't you file complaints with the State Bar against the judge and/or attorneys that wronged you? Contact your State Bar Office and they can provide you with the process of filing grievances against the individuals.


----------



## Created2Write

Unique Username said:


> For the record
> 
> I am not trying to dissuade ANYONE from believing whatever it is they believe in.
> 
> I do have a question for everyone though.
> 
> Did you always go to Church/Temple/Mosque or whatever
> since you were a little kid?
> 
> And if you did, do you think it is much easier to have faith because of this?


I have, yes. And no, I don't think it's easier to have faith. I've gone through many different trials in my life, I've also met mean and cruel people in my life, many of them professing Christians who stabbed me in the back, and I've gone through personal loss and grief. I've had many doubts in my life about my faith, I've questioned things I don't understand, I've even lived periods of my life where I didn't go to church. I don't think growing up in the church makes having faith any easier at all.


----------



## Created2Write

Blonde said:


> ^^I don't buy this
> 
> wilderness was adulterous and sowed adultery
> 
> and I really can see the scenario lifeistooshort suggested. His ex-w just got fed up with his crapola and someone who treated her better came along
> 
> Not sure when he became a Christian? but he sure doesn't act like JESUS toward his ex-w!
> 
> A couple examples of Jesus interacting with adulterous women: John 4; John 8



I'm going off of the little I know about wilderness and his ex that he's given here in this thread. If she had him falsely imprisoned, I'd say the harm that causes(both emotional, mental, and financial/economical as that is always on your record) is probably more severe than a couple of ONS. Now, where I don't agree with wilderness is when he says that he didn't cheat, and when he acts like a victim. He betrayed his wife, she betrayed him. You reap what you sow.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Blonde -
> 
> You are so wrong it is not even funny. What my ex and her mother are doing is flat out disgusting and despicable. It seems to me that you have some bizarre moral code where you think if a man makes some mistakes he deserves to have his life destroyed by lies, harassment, and PROVABLY false accusations. Yet even that does NOT explain why she is also trying to destroy my parents and my daughter.
> 
> You better believe that I'm a victim when it comes to my ex and her mother. I am the very definition of a victim. I have been falsely accused falsely imprisoned and abused well beyond what you can imagine. I challenge you or anyone else to carefully examine the facts and come to any other conclusion than THIS IS HORRIBLY WRONG! I have MOUNTAINS of evidence, witnesses and PROOF.


No one has said that your exes actions were okay. The issue is that you made major mistakes as a husband(which you freely admitted yourself), but you still want to paint yourself as an innocent bystander. It's not that we're questioning your suffering. Personally, I can't imagine how horrible it must be to be falsely imprisoned. However, if I had used my husband, cheated on him more than once, and been a rotten wife, I wouldn't look at my suffering as anything less than the consequences to my actions. 

You're, clearly, very bitter and angry at your ex. The Bible tells us to forgive, or we will not be forgiven. And while you might feel victimized by her, how do you think _she_ felt with your betrayals? 



> Will you accept my offer and look at the proof? I fear not as no one is interested in what is happening and what actually happened. All anyone is interested in is the accusations which are laughable when looked at in the aggregate and in context.
> tprovable false accusations


wilderness, personally, I don't need proof that your wife acted horribly. I also don't need proof that _you_ acted horribly. What's important now, is that you stop looking at this situation as a wronged man, and start looking at it from God's perspective. Think about it: Jesus was wronged by everyone; even those closest to Him(Judas). Did He act like a victim? He was blameless, never sinned, and yet he was crucified for the wrongs of others. Do you think He complained? In the midst of His agony, He begged his Father to "forgive them". 

This is where you need to practice forgiveness. Your wife made some horrible choices. She betrayed you. But you also made horrible choices and betrayed her. Forgive her, forgive yourself, and move on.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Wow are you wrong. How dare you make a joke over what I have been through. Do you have any idea how dehumanizing it is, how humiliationg, how HORRIBLE it is to shackled and thrown in prison when you have done absolutely nothing wrong? To be stripsearched, have your cavities searched, to wear the same clothes with no deoderant and little toothpaste in 100 degree heat with no air conditioning. And all the while your abusers are LAUGHING at you. They LAUGHED at my parents pain too. Because my parents know the truth- they have been ABUSED as well and they feel responsible because they cannot help because no one will listen because no.one cares.
> Get off your high horse, Blonde. Because if you don't you just might find yourself in my shoes someday.


wilderness, your anger and bitterness controls you. Do you think this is a response God would condone? Even if blonde has all of this wrong, your issue is NOT with her. You've been judgmental so often on this forum, that many can't take you seriously. How is this response supposed to help?


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I have lost every ounce of respect that I ever had for you. For you to defend an abuser is so outrageously contradictory to everything that you claim to stand for. My ex wife is most certainly not afraid of me. That's ridiculous as I haven't even spoken with her since December 2012. What she is afraid of is that I will hold her accountable for robbing my mother, physically abusing me, trying to alienate me from my child, falsely accusing my whole family, falsely imprisoning me, trying to alienate my child from my parents, cheating and refusing to stop cheating, continuously lying to court officials, and a million other things.
> *You are the LAST person that should be giving advice as your judgment is atrocious.*


Judgment doesn't taste to good when you're the person being judged.


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> I have lost every ounce of respect that I ever had for you. For you to defend an abuser is so outrageously contradictory to everything that you claim to stand for.


Abuse is a misuse of power. I don't see your wife as having any in your M. You cheated on her repeatedly and justify it but she should be stoned...

Your MOTHER is the one who is enabling and defending an abuser IMO. Shame on her!

I reject your victim mentality regarding the 30 days you spent in jail and having an ongoing restraining order against you. You did things to earn those sanctions.

You have unresolved RAGE, wilderness. God forbid you snap and pour out your unresolved rage on your daughter...

I hope the restrictions on you stand until you deal with your baggage. And JFTR I do not feel the least "disrespect" toward you. IMO RESPECT holds someone accountable for their behavior. I feel deeply concerned about the travesty that is your life and the potential for more and greater harm because you cling so tightly to denial and victim mentality and refuse to deal with your own heart.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Wow, this thread has totally derailed itself! 










This issue probably needs its own thread.


----------



## Created2Write

Zanne said:


> Oh my goodness, lower your torches and pitchforks people!
> 
> The man admitted that he was not the perfect husband, he has asked for forgiveness for the way he treated people on this board and in the title of this thread he admits he has been hypocritical. Most importantly, he is seeking advice and counsel. He has been sincere about that and so I think he deserves to be treated with a little more respect.
> 
> Wilderness, He is risen! You are loved.


The issue is that, while he may be interested in counsel, he's only interested in nice counsel. I don't agree with everything Blonde said, but I think wilderness has a long way to go when it comes to accepting personal responsibility without trying to pin more wrongdoing on someone else. It's like what Adam did in the Garden, when God asked why he had eaten of the fruit. Instead of owning to his own choices, he blamed Eve. Instead of owning to his own failings as a husband, he points at his wife and goes on about how worse she was. God isn't interested in who was worse, He wants true repentance and forgiveness from wilderness.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Wow. I am overwhelmed by your kindness and support, Zanne. Thank you. Again, I cant believe what a pompous asa I was to you, yet you reward kindness for evil. That's a very good quality you have there!
> 
> The.hardest part of this whole thing is being blamed for the abuse that my ex and her mother have inflicted upon me and my family.
> Can you imagine if a battered woman came to this forum and posters started to blame her- I.e.-'you made him do it '? There would be an uproar. Yet my ex physically abused me AND robbed my mother AND ha
> d me falsely imprisoned AND has been abusive to my parents AND has tried to destroy my relationship with my daughter AND continues to lie to
> court officials AND harassed my whole family AND she cheated, blamed me for it and refused to stop AND she continues to try and entrap me etc etc etc...
> 
> But I must have made her do it, and apparently so must have my mother father brother sister in law grandmother and ex girlfriend.


You didn't "make" her do it. It was her choice, which is why you're not responsible for her sins. The point being made, though, is that you should stop focusing on her wrongs and focus on _yours_, both in your marriage, and with the current affair.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Her infidelity was 6 weeks before we were to be reunited as a family under the same roof. When I discovered it her reaction was to become enraged at me and file a restraining order. I didn't even know what she wanted to do as far as the other man. I was never allowed to discuss it with her because of the restraining order. To this day she has never given me an explanation or apology. She went OVERNIGHT from supposedly loving me and wanting our family to work, looking at apartments with me, having my daughter think we were going to be back together, to total hatred. She also denied that we were together to everyone she knows - even me. This despite the fact that we had just come back from a family vacation, I was paying all her bills, we were looking at apartments, etc etc
> 
> Yes I did have ONS but I didn't blame her or use the revelation of my mistakes as an excuse to hate her or try and destroy her.


None of this makes your ONSs any better or less wrong.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I told you,.Wazza, my allegiance is to the Lord even if I failed Him. I just don't understand how if a man puts away a wife for fornication that another man can not lawfully have her in the future. I'm not saying you are wrong but I want to think about it some more and talk to my Pastor.
> 
> *As to NC it hasn't been 100% perfect but both of us are fighting this thing.*


This is why I encouraged you to block her.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> No he doesn't think nothing is wrong. He thinks he is getting a divorce as far as I know (and of course I know it. would be wrong of me to reach out to her and get the details). But the way I understand it the marriage has been in big trouble due to lack of chemistry. Last I heard they were talking seperation /divorce.
> I don't think they say they are Christian although she seems yo have an interest in God.


I hope you realize that each and every time you talk to her, you are helping to facilitate her divorce.


----------



## wilderness

karole said:


> Instead of lawsuits, why don't you file complaints with the State Bar against the judge and/or attorneys that wronged you? Contact your State Bar Office and they can provide you with the process of filing grievances against the individuals.


This is already well underway. Several family members are also doing the same.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I totally hear you and I agree! The only defense I have is that I did not have sex with her to intentionally circumvent His law. I get it, though... I shouldn't be trying to get her to divorce. And you may not believe this but I have encouraged.her multiple times to give her husband a chance tovwin her back.


Why should she try to work things out with her husband if she knows she can come to you whether he stays or not? This is why words are useless in these cases, and _actions_ are much more concrete.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I would tell her to quit having sex with AP and give her husband a chance. I would have her husband read nmmng and mmslp. Which I was going to send her a link to but I got blasted for considering trying to help.


You got blasted because _that_ is not help. Sending your AP(who doesn't want to fix her marriage) links to resources on how to fix the marriage? Not helpful. 

See, this is why people aren't taking you seriously. You're trying to make it look like you're doing the right thing, when you're not.


----------



## Created2Write

Wazza said:


> You cannot change what happened. You can be bitter about it and let it cause further damage to your life of you can move in and not let it affect you further. The choice is yours.


wildeness, what is more important? Focusing on the past, which you can not change, or focusing on the present and the future, which you _can_ change? UU DOES get it, you just don't like the style of writing. UU is trying to HELP you.


----------



## Wazza

Wilderness, I don't know the truth of what happened between you and your ex. And I don't need to know. But I am going to urge caution.

You are clearly heated, therefore maybe not thinking objectively.

I have to suspect that there are two sides to your story. I don't need to make a judgement either way, and I don't want to see your evidence unless I also see your ex's side. And I don't need to argue the toss with you. 

Just cautioning you not to put your resources into a futile fight that might drain your money or impact your relationship with your child.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> The issue is that, while he may be interested in counsel, he's only interested in nice counsel. I don't agree with everything Blonde said, but I think wilderness has a long way to go when it comes to accepting personal responsibility without trying to pin more wrongdoing on someone else. It's like what Adam did in the Garden, when God asked why he had eaten of the fruit. Instead of owning to his own choices, he blamed Eve. Instead of owning to his own failings as a husband, he points at his wife and goes on about how worse she was. God isn't interested in who was worse, He wants true repentance and forgiveness from wilderness.


Again, this is not something that happened in the past, this is something that is happening. The notion that I am somehow responsible fot my ex trying to destroy my life and the lives of my family is totally absurd. You have a very severe.misunderstanding of the level of abuse that me, my family, and my daughter are enduring. Because you clearly wont listen to what I have plainly said, I don't trust.you. That's how this thing works. If you refuse to see what is happening, why would I trust that you would give profitable advice?


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> Wilderness, I don't know the truth of what happened between you and your ex. And I don't need to know. But I am going to urge caution.
> 
> You are clearly heated, therefore maybe not thinking objectively.
> 
> I have to suspect that there are two sides to your story. I don't need to make a judgement either way, and I don't want to see your evidence unless I also see your ex's side. And I don't need to argue the toss with you.
> 
> Just cautioning you not to put your resources into a futile fight that might drain your money or impact your relationship with your child.


This post is nonsense. You are just defending abuse. Welcome to the club of people that I don't trust.
.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Don't post on my thread ever again. I'm serious. Really, get lost. You are no better than my ex.


*Uncalled for*. You have anger issues, wilderness. While I think they are somewhat understandable, as your ex sounds like a truly horrible person, you *need* to let go of the anger. Anytime someone rubs you the wrong way, you flip out. This has to STOP.


----------



## Created2Write

Blondilocks said:


> It's clear that your love your little girl. It's also clear that you would be wise to dial down the foaming-at-the-mouth anger you have with your ex-wife and certain posters. It reinforces the belief that the RO is necessary.
> 
> Don't want to sound flippant, but have you tried meditation or yoga?


This post many times over!


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> wildeness, what is more important? Focusing on the past, which you can not change, or focusing on the present and the future, which you _can_ change? UU DOES get it, you just don't like the style of writing. UU is trying to HELP you.


My family and I continue to be harassed and abused on an almost daily basis by her ex and her mother.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> *Uncalled for*. You have anger issues, wilderness. While I think they are somewhat understandable, as your ex sounds like a truly horrible person, you *need* to let go of the anger. Anytime someone rubs you the wrong way, you flip out. This has to STOP.


You need to go back and read what blonde wrote. You blatantly accused me of doing something I didn't do and can PROVE I didn't do. My response was very called for.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Again, this is not something that happened in the past, this is something that is happening. The notion that I am somehow responsible fot my ex trying to destroy my life and the lives of my family is totally absurd.


Stop looking with your bias, and actually read what I'm saying. _You are *not* responsible for the abuse she has, and is, causing._ There's a difference between reaping what we sow, and causing the issues in our life. You haven't caused the abuse, imo. I believe you when you say that your wife is a horrible manipulator. My point though, is that *you're letting her win and control you* while you continue to hold onto the anger. 



> You have a very severe.misunderstanding of the level of abuse that me, my family, and my daughter are enduring. Because you clearly wont listen to what I have plainly said, I don't trust.you. That's how this thing works. If you refuse to see what is happening, why would I trust that you would give profitable advice?


No, you're misunderstanding me. Maybe you think I'm blonde or something, but I actually do believe you when you say that you have, and continue, to suffer because your ex wife. However, you're still very angry and bitter, and you need to let that go. I get that your wife's actions were awful. I get that she is still awful. However, her actions don't make yours any less wrong. 

Do you care what God says to do when people wrong us? Do you remember how many times we are to forgive?


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> My family and I continue to be harassed and abused on an almost daily basis by her ex and her mother.


I get that. Is it more important to hold on to anger, or is it more important to let God work inside of you? I'm not accusing you or attacking you. I agree that your ex wife is horrible. But there's a reason God calls for us to forgive those who wrong us. Anger blinds us, bitterness reinforces that blindness. It keeps us from seeing potential solutions to our problems. It also keeps us from seeing who our friends are. I've never accused you of anything, I've been respectful and helpful, and now that you're riled up and angry over blonde's posts, you think I'm like her. 

Please, take a deep breath. _I_ am on your side.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> You need to go back and read what blonde wrote. You blatantly accused me of doing something I didn't do and can PROVE I didn't do. My response was very called for.


I didn't accuse you of anything. I don't agree with blonde at all, and I think what she said was very uncalled for as well. However, God calls us to be patient and kind to those who hurt us. He even tells us to "turn the other cheek", symbolizing submission. While what she said may have made her feel angry, it's a sin to act out of anger. Therefore, I maintain that what you said was uncalled for. 

Remember, God is watching what we do and what we say, and He knows everything. Even if no one else knows the truth about your ex wife, *He does*, He sees your suffering. Don't let your anger shut Him out.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> Stop looking with your bias, and actually read what I'm saying. _You are *not* responsible for the abuse she has, and is, causing._ There's a difference between reaping what we sow, and causing the issues in our life. You haven't caused the abuse, imo. I believe you when you say that your wife is a horrible manipulator. My point though, is that *you're letting her win and control you* while you continue to hold onto the anger.
> 
> 
> 
> No, you're misunderstanding me. Maybe you think I'm blonde or something, but I actually do believe you when you say that you have, and continue, to suffer because your ex wife. However, you're still very angry and bitter, and you need to let that go. I get that your wife's actions were awful. I get that she is still awful. However, her actions don't make yours any less wrong.
> 
> Do you care what God says to do when people wrong us? Do you remember how many times we are to forgive?



I am sorry. Forgiveness is something that I have struggled with. I do pray for my ex and her mother and ask that He bless them. I have asked the Lord to remove the consequences for their sin. But the tough thing is that they just wont stop. Its like they have a demonic hatred of me.
And the worst part is that my little girl is suffering. I truly believe in my heart that she belongs with me. My ex is not capable of raising a child.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> I didn't accuse you of anything. I don't agree with blonde at all, and I think what she said was very uncalled for as well. However, God calls us to be patient and kind to those who hurt us. He even tells us to "turn the other cheek", symbolizing submission. While what she said may have made her feel angry, it's a sin to act out of anger. Therefore, I maintain that what you said was uncalled for.
> 
> Remember, God is watching what we do and what we say, and He knows everything. Even if no one else knows the truth about your ex wife, *He does*, He sees your suffering. Don't let your anger shut Him out.


I'm sorry. I actually meant what 'she' accused me of.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> I get that. Is it more important to hold on to anger, or is it more important to let God work inside of you? I'm not accusing you or attacking you. I agree that your ex wife is horrible. But there's a reason God calls for us to forgive those who wrong us. Anger blinds us, bitterness reinforces that blindness. It keeps us from seeing potential solutions to our problems. It also keeps us from seeing who our friends are. I've never accused you of anything, I've been respectful and helpful, and now that you're riled up and angry over blonde's posts, you think I'm like her.
> 
> Please, take a deep breath. _I_ am on your side.


Yes, I believe you are on my side. I am very sorry. I know you didn't accuse me, but Blonde did.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I am sorry. Forgiveness is something that I have struggled with. I do pray for my ex and her mother and ask that He bless them. I have asked the Lord to remove the consequences for their sin. But the tough thing is that they just wont stop. Its like they have a demonic hatred of me.
> And the worst part is that my little girl is suffering. I truly believe in my heart that she belongs with me. My ex is not capable of raising a child.


Firstly, don't pray for their consequences to be removed. That goes directly against God's nature. Some people call it karma, others that we reap what we so, etc. But that principle actively exists in life. Why pray for it to go away? I'm not saying to switch and pray that they die a horrible death. That would be wrong. But you want to know the totally amazing thing about forgiveness? God tells us that vengence is His. When we forgive, we give the people who have wronged us up to the Lord. Then, they're *His* problem. Personally, I would rather God deal with my enemies. 

Remember the Psalm: "You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies". Pray that God will help you forgive, and then let Him give you the strength to deal with each new day as it comes.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> Firstly, don't pray for their consequences to be removed. That goes directly against God's nature. Some people call it karma, others that we reap what we so, etc. But that principle actively exists in life. Why pray for it to go away? I'm not saying to switch and pray that they die a horrible death. That would be wrong. But you want to know the totally amazing thing about forgiveness? God tells us that vengence is His. When we forgive, we give the people who have wronged us up to the Lord. Then, they're *His* problem. Personally, I would rather God deal with my enemies.
> 
> Remember the Psalm: "You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies". Pray that God will help you forgive, and then let Him give you the strength to deal with each new day as it comes.


I do. And the Lord has definitely shown me some things that make forgiveness easier. Ive been extremely blessed with dreams that show me certain things.


----------



## Maricha75

Wilderness, I can understand being angry, and frustrated over how you have been treated by the courts, and by your ex and her family. But, by the way you post about her, it is evident that you HATE her. Each post you make, when referencing her, drips with that hatred. Do I believe you should necessarily LIKE her? No. However, you know what the Bible says about hating? "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15. Wilderness, that hatred is one more thing that separates you from God... and made it easy for OW to get in there, and for youto succumb. Now, one person said "Wow, this got really derailed!"...Actually, I think it all ties in together, but that's JMO. Truly, Wilderness, you need to let go of the anger and hatred. Give it all over to God. Everything.


----------



## Created2Write

Apologies accepted.  No hard feelings. I've been wronged by people close to me, though not nearly in the same capacity as yours, and it was and is difficult forgiving them for their actions. You know what I've learned? I'm much happier and less stressed out when I forgive. When I hold onto my anger, I don't enjoy the little things in life that God blesses me with.


----------



## wilderness

Maricha75 said:


> Wilderness, I can understand being angry, and frustrated over how you have been treated by the courts, and by your ex and her family. But, by the way you post about her, it is evident that you HATE her. Each post you make, when referencing her, drips with that hatred. Do I believe you should necessarily LIKE her? No. However, you know what the Bible says about hating? "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15. Wilderness, that hatred is one more thing that separates you from God... and made it easy for OW to get in there, and for youto succumb. Now, one person said "Wow, this got really derailed!"...Actually, I think it all ties in together, but that's JMO. Truly, Wilderness, you need to let go of the anger and hatred. Give it all over to God. Everything/QUOTE]
> 
> With all due respect, I don't hate my ex at all. The emotion that you see, the hatred if you will, is related to frustration at the totally inaccurate stigma and perceptions that these BS accusations cause. This is just do wrong. More wrong than anyone who has never walked in my shoes could know.


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## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> Apologies accepted.  No hard feelings. I've been wronged by people close to me, though not nearly in the same capacity as yours, and it was and is difficult forgiving them for their actions. You know what I've learned? I'm much happier and less stressed out when I forgive. When I hold onto my anger, I don't enjoy the little things in life that God blesses me with.


Thank you. I believe that you are a true believer, a child of the living God. In this world that is a very rare thing indeed.


----------



## Zanne

wilderness said:


> My family and I continue to be harassed and abused on an almost daily basis by her ex and her mother.


I think this is something worth repeating in your thread. This is situation with your ex wife is ONGOING and happening to you NOW, which makes moving past it a difficult task.

I think you have said some things which indicate you are trying to be the better person. I hope people can understand how hard it must be to battle this every day and hopefully they will lend a little more compassion in their posts.

However, it doesn't mean you don't need to be hit by the proverbial TAM 2x4 once in awhile! I hope you continue to accept the constructive criticism with grace.


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## Created2Write

Wilderness, if you don't hate her, you are, at least, extremely angry with her and bitter over the things she's done. Is that accurate?


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## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> Wilderness, if you don't hate her, you are, at least, extremely angry with her and bitter over the things she's done. Is that accurate?


No, I don't think so. What I'm extremely angry at is the perception that this caused. I cant begin to describe the level of frustration over the attitude that blonde displayed- you know, the 'you must have done something to deserve this', or even worse 'your daughter is better off without you'.
My daughter and I love each other very much. I admit I was a lousy husband (though I improved when I became a believer on Jesus Christ), but I was and am a great father. My ex would have gladly told you the same thing until the day I caught her cheating.


----------



## Unique Username

Everyone is wasting their time and fingers/breath
with wilderness

Unless you agree with what he says and sweet talk him you are an evil hater...no better than his ex-betrayed spouse and the judges and the courts and the exes mother and and and and and

To the rational and sane reader

Wilderness has anger management issues and possibly some Bipolar mood swings

One minute up the other angry the other down

SO - if we - the anonymous internet armchair counselors can see his rage/anger issues and one-sided train of thought 

Imagine how the court system, judges and attorneys and county jail folks see him.

Anyway - seems obvious to me that wilderness really only wants an audience 
or co-riders on his roller coaster of emotion

Added To the Counseling by a licensed professional..and at this point I think a Psychiatrist is his best choice
Anger management classes might do him a world of good as well.

He wants an audience and does not want to take any advice offered. We are simply wasting our precious time and energy trying to help someone who doesn't even want it.

I'll still wish him good luck.

2NT had some very relevant advice as well.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> I think this is something worth repeating in your thread. This is situation with your ex wife is ONGOING and happening to you NOW, which makes moving past it a difficult task.
> 
> I think you have said some things which indicate you are trying to be the better person. I hope people can understand how hard it must be to battle this every day and hopefully they will lend a little more compassion in their posts.
> 
> However, it doesn't mean you don't need to be hit by the proverbial TAM 2x4 once in awhile! I hope you continue to accept the constructive criticism with grace.


Exactly, Zanne. Just quietly going away and 'being the better person' isn't going to work, its been tried 100x over! They are not going to stop their :rofl:games, harassment, false accusations, baiting, and traps. Believe me they are not going to stop. Their objective is to totally destroy me and anyone on my side. That's what they want and nothing short of it will satisfy them!


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> No, I don't think so. What I'm extremely angry at is the perception that this caused. I cant begin to describe the level of frustration over the attitude that blonde displayed- you know, the 'you must have done something to deserve this', or even worse 'your daughter is better off without you'.
> My daughter and I love each other very much. I admit I was a lousy husband (though I improved when I became a believer on Jesus Christ), but I was and am a great father. My ex would have gladly told you the same thing until the day I caught her cheating.


I can understand that. However, being honest here, it seems to me that you _do_ have some pretty awful anger issues. Telling blonde to "piss off", and that she's "no better than your ex wife"...how does that sound to you? And blonde is just an anonymous poster on a forum. Your ex wife has been much, much worse. If your anger comes through to posters here, I can't imagine that you _don't_ feel angry at your ex wife. 

I think, honestly, you need some counseling. I don't think you're really seeing the anger you feel. And I totally can empathize. Anger is a toxic feeling and emotion. I don't like admitting when I'm angry because I'd rather not be angry in the first place. But when you deny your true feelings, you bury them and then they only fester. They build. Resentment grows. Then so does hatred. You even experienced this with your affair partner, how you thought you were over her until she contacted you again and you realized how angry you'd been all this time. 

I really encourage you to seek counseling, perhaps even therapy. It can only help. Once we control our own feelings and emotions and actions, people perceive us differently. It might even prove to the courts that the evidence you have really is useful.


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## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Exactly, Zanne. Just quietly going away and 'being the better person' isn't going to work, its been tried 100x over! They are not going to stop their :rofl:games, harassment, false accusations, baiting, and traps. Believe me they are not going to stop. Their objective is to totally destroy me and anyone on my side. That's what they want and nothing short of it will satisfy them!


I don't think anyone has said to quietly go away. You can be the better person _and_ still fight against them in the court system. However, being the better person is an absolute must. Your wife has convinced the police officers and judges that you're not trustworthy, so even justified anger or irritation is going to look like you have an abuse problem. Which is another reason I recommend counseling. If you can get your emotions in check, you could have a really good shot at getting custody of your daughter.


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## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> I can understand that. However, being honest here, it seems to me that you _do_ have some pretty awful anger issues. Telling blonde to "piss off", and that she's "no better than your ex wife"...how does that sound to you? And blonde is just an anonymous poster on a forum. Your ex wife has been much, much worse. If your anger comes through to posters here, I can't imagine that you _don't_ feel angry at your ex wife.
> 
> I think, honestly, you need some counseling. I don't think you're really seeing the anger you feel. And I totally can empathize. Anger is a toxic feeling and emotion. I don't like admitting when I'm angry because I'd rather not be angry in the first place. But when you deny your true feelings, you bury them and then they only fester. They build. Resentment grows. Then so does hatred. You even experienced this with your affair partner, how you thought you were over her until she contacted you again and you realized how angry you'd been all this time.
> 
> I really encourage you to seek counseling, perhaps even therapy. It can only help. Once we control our own feelings and emotions and actions, people perceive us differently. It might even prove to the courts that the evidence you have really is useful.


First of all you are absolutely right on the anger thing. My mother, who is a mental health professional, thinks that my ex and her mother have inflicted severe emotional trauma on everyone involved. There is PTS and ongoing severe issues that this stress causes. Mymother believes we are dealing with 'personanality disordered' individuals. These people are EXPERTS at recruiting others to do their dirty work (in this case courts, judges, lawyers, etc) . Brutal honesty- they are too strong for me, I cannot defeat them on my own strength. I pray The Lord will fight for me.

As to blonde, its not so much that she has done what my ex has done, its that she has the exact same mindset. I see it now after living through this horrible ordeal.


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## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> I don't think anyone has said to quietly go away. You can be the better person _and_ still fight against them in the court system. However, being the better person is an absolute must. Your wife has convinced the police officers and judges that you're not trustworthy, so even justified anger or irritation is going to look like you have an abuse problem. Which is another reason I recommend counseling. If you can get your emotions in check, you could have a really good shot at getting custody of your daughter.


Actually the last time I was in court the police officer was on my side and even testified as such. I still lost, amazingly.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> This post is nonsense. You are just defending abuse. Welcome to the club of people that I don't trust.
> .


I believe every word you say, without hearing the other side, even though you admit the courts, who have heard both sides, consistently side with her to the point of jailing you.....or I am defending abuse? Really?

:rofl:


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## wilderness

Wazza said:


> I believe every word you say, without hearing the other side, even though you admit the courts, who have heard both sides, consistently side with her to the point of jailing you.....or I am defending abuse? Really?
> 
> :rofl:


Would you tell a woman that got the crap kicked out of her by her man that there are 2 sides to every story? Then don't tell it to me.


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## Wazza

Created2Write said:


> I don't think anyone has said to quietly go away. You can be the better person _and_ still fight against them in the court system. However, being the better person is an absolute must. Your wife has convinced the police officers and judges that you're not trustworthy, so even justified anger or irritation is going to look like you have an abuse problem. Which is another reason I recommend counseling. If you can get your emotions in check,* you could have a really good shot at getting custody of your daughter*.


It's all very well to be positive, but what on earth makes you think that custody is within reach? It's possible to bankrupt yourself pursuing futile legal remedies. I'd hate to see Wilderness go there.


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## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> First of all you are absolutely right on the anger thing. My mother, who is a mental health professional, thinks that my ex and her mother have inflicted severe emotional trauma on everyone involved. There is PTS and ongoing severe issues that this stress causes. Mymother believes we are dealing with 'personanality disordered' individuals. These people are EXPERTS at recruiting others to do their dirty work (in this case courts, judges, lawyers, etc) . Brutal honesty- they are too strong for me, I cannot defeat them on my own strength. I pray The Lord will fight for me.
> 
> As to blonde, its not so much that she has done what my ex has done, its that she has the exact same mindset. I see it now after living through this horrible ordeal.


See, I think this is what I'm talking about. My post was more about you than anything else, and you turned it back on your ex wife. I think it's time to stop focusing on her, and start focusing on you, both in the good things and the bad. Admit to your faults(and I don't just mean the affair, I mean your previous ONSs, the anger and bitterness, etc.), start seeking counseling to resolve your issues, and then start making strides to right the wrong you committed against your affair partner and her husband. But, in the midst of all of this, don't forget to give yourself good things, too. Maybe get into a gym and workout(which does wonders when you're angry!), get into some hobbies you enjoy, etc.


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## wilderness

Wazza said:


> It's all very well to be positive, but what on earth makes you think that custody is within reach? It's possible to bankrupt yourself pursuing futile legal remedies. I'd hate to see Wilderness go there.


That's already happened. I crossed that bridge a long time ago.


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## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Actually the last time I was in court the police officer was on my side and even testified as such. I still lost, amazingly.


Okay, but that wasn't my point. Did you get my point?


----------



## Created2Write

Wazza said:


> It's all very well to be positive, but what on earth makes you think that custody is within reach? It's possible to bankrupt yourself pursuing futile legal remedies. I'd hate to see Wilderness go there.


I don't think trying to get custody of his daughter is a futile legal remedy.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> Okay, but that wasn't my point. Did you get my point?


I did. I think what I was trying to say is that I have started to see small signs of this thing turning around.


----------



## wilderness

created2write said:


> i don't think trying to get custody of his daughter is a futile legal remedy.


amen!


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> Would you tell a woman that got the crap kicked out of her by her man that there are 2 sides to every story? Then don't tell it to me.


I said it to Zanne when her husband pulled a gun out, And she had a police report. What did you say to her at that point? Go back and read your own words in her thread, and apply them to yourself. If you won't trust me, maybe you will trust you.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> I said it to Zanne when her husband pulled a gun out, And she had a police report. What did you say to her at that point? Go back and read your own words in her thread, and apply them to yourself. If you won't trust me, maybe you will trust you.


Ok. But in this case there is no excuse for falsely imprisoning an innocent man because he wouldn't give you money.


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## Created2Write

Wilderness, you may not like this, but there are _always_ two sides to every story. The statement on its own doesn't legitimize your wife's behavior, so please don't get so hostile. It's your anger that is your own worst enemy. You focus on your wife and her mother, and you talk about how they're out to destroy you. Please listen when I say this: if you weren't as angry and bitter as you are right now, I don't think they would be succeeding as much as they are. 

You seem to have responsive anger. My father has this as well. He's not an angry person overall, but he does respond to things around him with anger. He gets really mad, he shouts, and shouts, and shouts. He's never hit anyone, he's never even come close to it. But he does shout, and it _is_ scary. While I don't see this as assault, others can. When you react on here with anger and spite, it _*looks*_ like your wife may have had some reason to be scared. (Please note, I'm not saying she really did have a reason to be, I'm saying that it _looks_ like it.) When wazza and others talk about there being two sides, they're talking about that. Because you do sound angry and bitter.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Ok. But in this case there is no excuse for falsely imprisoning an innocent man because he wouldn't give you money.


You're right. There's no excuse. May I ask you a question, though? What do you think God would have you do _now_?


----------



## Wazza

Created2Write said:


> I don't think trying to get custody of his daughter is a futile legal remedy.


On what basis? As I understand it, she already has custody. What factors in this case are going to turn it around? Do you realise how inequitable the system is?

https://www.fatherhood.gov/library/dad-stats

Why Do Women Win Most Custody Battles? - Attorneys.com

The bias against fathers in U.S. custody and child support - The Spearhead


----------



## Created2Write

Wazza, this isn't the place to debate the system as regards custody battles. My point was if he wants custody of his daughter, then he should get into counseling and resolve his anger issues. The courts won't side with him while his anger and bitterness drive him, and getting them solved, at least, won't _hurt_ his chances.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> Wilderness, you may not like this, but there are _always_ two sides to every story. The statement on its own doesn't legitimize your wife's behavior, so please don't get so hostile. It's your anger that is your own worst enemy. You focus on your wife and her mother, and you talk about how they're out to destroy you. Please listen when I say this: if you weren't as angry and bitter as you are right now, I don't think they would be succeeding as much as they are.
> 
> You seem to have responsive anger. My father has this as well. He's not an angry person overall, but he does respond to things around him with anger. He gets really mad, he shouts, and shouts, and shouts. He's never hit anyone, he's never even come close to it. But he does shout, and it _is_ scary. While I don't see this as assault, others can. When you react on here with anger and spite, it _*looks*_ like your wife may have had some reason to be scared. (Please note, I'm not saying she really did have a reason to be, I'm saying that it _looks_ like it.) When wazza and others talk about there being two sides, they're talking about that. Because you do sound angry and bitter.



Part of this is right on, part of this is WAY off. But whatever, I am out of fight for the moment. I will only say that I don't shout anymore, ever. The Lord helped me with that as well.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> You're right. There's no excuse. May I ask you a question, though? What do you think God would have you do _now_?


Press in.


----------



## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Part of this is right on, part of this is WAY off. But whatever, I am out of fight for the moment. I will only say that I don't shout anymore, ever. The Lord helped me with that as well.


I'm glad the Lord has helped you with that. I don't think you're getting my point, though. Basically, it's this: if you want custody of your daughter, you need to prove to the courts that you deserve to get it. You need to disprove your ex wife's testimony. If you get your anger and bitterness resolved, it _could_ help them see you differently. But while you're still angry, it only solidifies your ex wife's statement, even though she lied.

And I'm not trying to fight you.


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## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> Press in.


In your personal life, yes. But what do you think He would have you do about the situation with your ex wife?


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> I'm glad the Lord has helped you with that. I don't think you're getting my point, though. Basically, it's this: if you want custody of your daughter, you need to prove to the courts that you deserve to get it. You need to disprove your ex wife's testimony. If you get your anger and bitterness resolved, it _could_ help them see you differently. But while you're still angry, it only solidifies your ex wife's statement, even though she lied.
> 
> And I'm not trying to fight you.


You don't understand the courts. I can prove as you say a thousand times over. In my jurisdiction the woman wins physical custody almost 100% of the time. The courts don't have the faintest clue whether I am an angry person or not. (And don't lecture me on body language, the humble body language play and 'shut up' has also been tried 100x over)
I do have joint legal custody but the order isn't worth the paper that its printed upon.


----------



## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> In your personal life, yes. But what do you think He would have you do about the situation with your ex wife?


What can I do? There is no way we can talk this out as long as the restraining order remains. Since the restraining order is the lynchpin of her case, she will never release it.


----------



## Zanne

Created2Write said:


> I'm glad the Lord has helped you with that. I don't think you're getting my point, though. Basically, it's this: if you want custody of your daughter, you need to prove to the courts that you deserve to get it. You need to disprove your ex wife's testimony. If you get your anger and bitterness resolved, it _could_ help them see you differently. But while you're still angry, it only solidifies your ex wife's statement, even though she lied.
> 
> And I'm not trying to fight you.


I think your advice is great, C2W! But I will add that Wilderness may be frustrated because he can't prove something which is a lie. If they keep lying, how is he suppose to prove that they are not? How does he prove to the courts that he's not an angry man? He needs some constructive advice regarding that issue.

This is not to say that he doesn't have some anger or frustration over the situation, or that he never raised his voice in anger at his ex wife. But how do you prove that you're not that person? Any ideas? Anybody can be polite inside of a courtroom.


----------



## Created2Write

I've tried writing out a post a few times now, but I really just don't know what to say at this point. I've tried offering the best advice I can, the best encouragement I can, for Wilderness to _change_. I don't know why he keeps going back to his ex wife. I can't change her. He can't change her. He *can* change himself. Whether or not those changes will influence the courts, I have no idea. But dealing with anger won't _hurt_ his chances. And I'm about 99% positive that they know about his anger. It's been evident since his very first post. 

I have no constructive idea about how to prove that his ex wife is lying. That's a different discussion for a different thread, and entirely distracts from what he _really_ needs right now. He needs counseling. Therapy. He needs to admit his wrongs to the husband of the woman he had sex with. He needs to cut that woman out of his life. He needs to be held accountable by a Pastor or church leader. He's too focused on getting justice for the wrongs done by his ex wife, and that will get him nowhere. 

Wilderness, I'm not, at all, trying to tell you to be weak and let your ex walk all over you. I'm talking about aligning your life with God's Word. Letting Him really work within you. Until you open yourself up to that, you will continue to go in a vicious circle. And I'm not at all saying you should talk to her. But when we let go of our anger, we're not blinded by it any more, and we can see solutions we didn't see before. People will automatically see is differently. Zanne said that anyone can be polite in court, and while that's true, those people also see fake manners all of the time. They can spot it very easily. Dealing with your anger will change you, and that will be evident to them on some level. Stop asking how and why, stop saying, "I've tried that before". Take it one step at a time, and really deal with your anger. Counselors are great because they can help you on a deeper level. I strongly encourage this. But it comes down to this: at some point you have to decide if you want to wallow on anger, or if you want to be happy in the Lord knowing that you have forgiven and moved on. That choice is yours and yours alone.


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## 2ntnuf

This is what is in my area:

Domestic Abuse Counseling Center - DACC Curriculum

I am not saying you are abusive. I don't need to know what you think, after you read this. 

Have you asked your attorney about your visitation rights? I have only read how you want to redeem yourself. You cannot fight what the courts believe by going to court. In cases like this, and I am not an attorney, so go and check on what I tell you before you do anything, the court will not believe the husband. They will do all they can to draw your attention from what is actually important by making you defend yourself. Don't do it. Defend what is on that piece of paper, by checking what your rights are to see your daughter. Go to a parenting class or three and learn how to love your daughter. Drop the, "I have to defend myself." No, you don't. You only have to defend yourself against actual attacks, not inferred remarks and legal insinuations. That is what you have to learn to let roll off your back. You must get into counseling. You have to get off this merry-go-round and work on seeing your child. The domestic relations department, child services, and many others will tell your ex how to confuse and dishearten you so that you don't see your daughter. You will pay more in child support because you are not seeing your daughter as described and agreed upon in that order of court. 

You are in denial. It is not a denial in the sense that, you won't admit to something. It is a denial in the sense that, you want what you can't have, even though you may well have a right to it. That's why they are all going to mess with you. You have to get your attitude changed. You have to or you will lose everything. I bet you don't even see your daughter as much as you are supposed to according to that order. Find out from an attorney, what your rights are to her. Find out what you have a chance of winning that will actually help build your reputation. 

Those are the things you need to fight for. First though, you must fight for yourself. You must fight, by going to counseling and gaining perspective of your situation. Look up a Venn diagram with three circles. the truth is the little part in the middle. You won't find it. There is no truth, only what people believe to be true. You have to change some of your goals. They are misdirected and the folks you think are against you, just might be trying to push all the right buttons so that you daughter will never know you as her father. They do that so your wife will have a chance to find a new man and your child, ex, and her future husband will be able to have a family without interference from you. 

Because the court believes you will make it impossible for your ex to find a husband and father for her child. I know that just hurt. I am very sorry. You have to snap out of this. You have to work on what is important. You first and your child. You have to get counseling and work toward being a man the court, mainly domestic relations, the abuse center at the court house(can't remember the actual name), and the judges, attorneys and everyone else will look at as a respectable tax paying, law abiding, reasonable man with good solid new boundaries. 

You are digging your own grave. They all know it, even your attorney. Your attorney will let you do it, because they don't want you to do anything to harm your wife or child. They all will play their parts and make you think you are getting a fair deal. You have to change who you are and what you do. That is the only way. 

Get off the blame game. Get off the defensive game. Yes, I know it's not a game. It's your life. It's your whole life. It's all you gave and you will defend it to your death. DON'T! Change is all we can count on in this life. Don't trap yourself into losing the few things you have left. Don't trap yourself into losing the few opportunities that will come your way. Please, it will be hard enough with what is in place now. Please, listen to me. Please...for the love or your daughter. I assume you love her and she loves you, as most daughters look to their daddy for protection and safety. 

Show the courts, the public, your family, your ex's friends and relatives, through humility, understanding, counseling, changes in behavior and thinking, changes in responses and reactions, that you are her daddy. That you are the responsible man that they all thought you were. Love yourself. Quit hating yourself. Yes, you do deserve better, but no one will hand it to you. You have to earn it.


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## Created2Write

SUCH a great post 2ntuf!!!!


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## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> What can I do? There is no way we can talk this out as long as the restraining order remains. Since the restraining order is the lynchpin of her case, she will never release it.


What do you think God wants you to do? Do you think He wants you to be angry? Do you think He wants you to have resentment?


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## 2ntnuf

And it has less to do with guilt or innocence with your attorney, her's, the judge and everyone else. It is all about liability, their own boundaries and morals, their reputations, their livelihood. I'm telling you, wilderness. You will lose unless you can change. You win, if you change, because you will move on from this, watch your own a**, which is good. You will cause others to take a second look. Some will never give you a chance. Others will try a little. It's what you have left, man. Take it! Take it and make the right choices, decisions, and responses. Do it for you, man. Do it for your little girl. 

I can't do more than this, wilderness. It's from the heart. Know that, please. 

I don't know what will come of your life, even if you succeed at all of those thigs. It's up to people and you. You can't control them. You can only be happy with your attempts to do the best you possbily can. That's it. That's what you have to learn. 

Give it your all. Life is short, when you are happy. It's an endless hell when you are not. Fight for happiness and any love you can get. Fight with all your might and let everything you cannot influence, fall away. Protect yourself from legal retribution. Do what is right, lawful, and just.

It's the only way.


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## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> SUCH a great post 2ntuf!!!!


Wrong. A truly delusional post with almost nothing of value. You really don't get it, create. You WANT to, but you don't. You simply have no clue what I am up against.

I will add that even though you don't get it, I still appreciate the fact that you are trying to help. And I believe you are a true believer on Jesus Christ. Still, you don't get it.


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## Blonde

Zanne said:


> Can you not believe that innocent people are abused by the court system for the malicious benefit of another?


I don't believe w is being honest with himself if he thinks he's "innocent".

There's a river in Egypt...


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## wilderness

Blonde said:


> I don't believe w is being honest with himself if he thinks he's "innocent".
> 
> There's a river in Egypt...


I want to, but I won't say it. God willing, someday we will meet in the promised land. On that day, you are going to owe me one hell of an apology. You have no idea how wrong you are.


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## Created2Write

*sigh* I think I get it just fine, wilderness. Anyone with a reading level above fifth grade would get that you are in an extremely tough situation. Perhaps even an impossible one. You're up against an extremely vindictive woman who wants to make your life miserable. You've tried many different things to get the truth out to those who should be able to help you, and nothing has worked. You've been punished for things you didn't do, you've been lied about, and your daughter is caught in the middle. You love her and you want what is best for her, but you don't know what to do to change your situation. You feel helpless, as if there is no hope. People see you and think you're a horrible person. They trust the restraining order more than the proof you have to offer, and now your entire character is being called into question. Even people here have said they don't believe you, and they've treated you like scum. And in the midst of your hurt, you had sex with a woman you shouldn't have, adding even more stress to your already unbelievably stressful life. 

I really do get it. 

I also get this: you are a very angry person. I think you have bitterness and resentment issues to the point that you can't even read an encouraging post without getting hostile. I think you _want_ your life to be different, but I don't think you're willing to change yourself. I think you want pity, more than actual advice. There was nothing in 2ntuf's post that was anything less than encouraging. Because the reality is this: you can't change your ex. You can't change the past. But you _can_ change yourself. You _can_ change your perspective. You _can_ defeat your anger. You _can_ make your life great even in the midst of this terrible situation. But you have to _choose_ to do that. Your life won't get any better until you _want_ to change. 2ntuf's entire point was to take control of what you actually can control, and to make the most of the good things you have. 

You didn't cause your wife's abuse. You didn't make her a horrible person. You don't deserve to be treated the way she treats you. But, at some point, the victim _has_ to let it go, or accept that they will be miserable. I don't think you want to be miserable. I think you want to be happy. You may never have full custody of your daughter, but do you want her to grow up with an angry father? Or do you want your time with her to be filled with happiness? Ultimately it's your life. You have the power to change it. 

I don't have to be in a legal battle to understand the principles of the Bible, or the power of anger.


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## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> I want to, but I won't say it. God willing, someday we will meet in the promised land. On that day, you are going to owe me one hell of an apology. You have no idea how wrong you are.


Wilderness, ignore her. If she's wrong about you, then she has nothing to offer you. Accept that she's wrong, and stop responding to her. Acting self-righteous isn't going to make her suddenly apologize. And really, it's not worth it to keep going back and forth.


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## wilderness

Created2Write said:


> *sigh* I think I get it just fine, wilderness. Anyone with a reading level above fifth grade would get that you are in an extremely tough situation. Perhaps even an impossible one. You're up against an extremely vindictive woman who wants to make your life miserable. You've tried many different things to get the truth out to those who should be able to help you, and nothing has worked. You've be But you _can_ change yourself. You _can_ change your perspective. You _can_ defeat your anger. You _can_ make your life great even in the midst of this terrible situationo be happy. You may never have full custody of your daughter, but do you want her to grow up with an angry father? Or do you want your time with her to be filled with happiness? Ultimately it's your life. You have the power to change it.
> 
> I don't have to be in a legal battle to understand the principles of the Bible, or the power of anger.


You get SOME of this. Some of it, you don't get at all. Why do you not believe me when I tell you this?


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## Unique Username




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## Created2Write

wilderness said:


> You get SOME of this. Some of it, you don't get at all. Why do you not believe me when I tell you this?


Why are you focusing on whether or not I get your situation, instead of looking at the rest of the post? 

Do you want to change? Do you want to be happy? Do you want to follow God?


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## Created2Write

You didn't cause your wife's abuse. You didn't make her a horrible person. You don't deserve to be treated the way she treats you. But, at some point, the victim has to let it go, or accept that they will be miserable. I don't think you want to be miserable. I think you want to be happy. You may never have full custody of your daughter, but do you want her to grow up with an angry father? Or do you want your time with her to be filled with happiness? Ultimately it's your life. You have the power to change it.

Reposting this since you took it out of the quote. ^THIS is the most important part of that post. You either want to change your life, or you don't. It's simple.


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## Created2Write

wilderness, this will be my final post in this thread. I've been respectful, I've tried to be helpful, I've taken your word at face value, and at every possible opportunity you've gotten defensive, argumentative, and you've ignored the help I've offered. I might not understand your situation. I think I do, but I could be wrong. So, I'm going to sum up the facts as I see them:

1. You are angry. If you weren't angry, no one here would say you were. If you weren't angry, you wouldn't get so defensive. If you weren't angry, you wouldn't be so argumentative. I'm glad you don't shout anymore, but shouting is only one component of anger. I'm glad you've never become violent, but violence is only one component of anger. It is possible to be calm, quiet, and angry. You are angry. You *need* to see a counselor about your anger. 

Ephesians 4:26-27 "“In your anger do not sin”: *Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold.*" 

2. You are not perfect. I don't think you are vindictive, like you ex wife, but you are a sinner just like her. You see others wrongdoings as worse than your own, but your sins need forgiveness same as everyone else's. It's time to stop focusing on all the wrongs your wife has committed, and deal with the wrongs you have committed. 

Galatians 5: 13-27 "13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 *For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."

3. Your life is entirely in your own control. You may not be able to control your circumstances, but you can control how you respond to your circumstances. You may feel like a victim, but God doesn't see you as a victim. Through His blood and sacrifice you are empowered, strong. Through Him all things are possible, the Bible tells us. Your ex wife has been horrible to you, but God is on your side. He sees your suffering. If you choose to continue to be a victim, you're saying that He isn't powerful enough to change your circumstances. And at that point, if you are a victim, it's because you choose to be. The courts don't determine your success or your happiness. Your ex wife doesn't determine your success or your happiness. YOU determine your success and your happiness.

Romans 8:31 "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?"

Isaiah 54:17 "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord."

Zechariah 4:6 "So he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty."

I truly wish you the best, and I pray that you choose the right path. I hope that you will listen more closely to what others have to say, and I hope you will stop getting so defensive. God uses people, too. He could be speaking through us to help you, but your anger doesn't let you see beyond what you want to see and hear. When you've really let go of your anger, I think you will see how wrong you've been about myself and others, and I think you will see that many of us have been on your side. But I'm not going to try and help someone who only wants attention.*


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## Convection

wilderness said:


> Wrong. A truly delusional post with almost nothing of value. You really don't get it, create. You WANT to, but you don't. You simply have no clue what I am up against.
> 
> I will add that even though you don't get it, I still appreciate the fact that you are trying to help. And I believe you are a true believer on Jesus Christ. Still, you don't get it.


Have you read 2tnuf's story, Wilderness? Do you know anything about him at all? He's you, in 20 years. Everything you are enduring - allegations, having the system stacked against him, alienation of loved ones - he's already been through it, and has the battle scars to prove it.

This whole thread is rapidly falling into the category of Matthew 7:6:

"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

Advice has been offered, in good faith. You can can continue to rage and spin your wheels against people here and ultimately, they will stop telling you what you do not want to hear. Or you can accept the advice in the spirit in which it is given, accept it with humility and grace, even if you prefer not to follow it.

Ultimately, it is your life. If you wish to live it in anger, that is your choice alone. Turn the other cheek, or not.

I wish you luck.


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## Blonde

wilderness said:


> You are wasting your breath. Blonde likes to talk about fruits and the irony is that we are seeing the fruits of her corrupted mindset, which is based on virulent feminism.


Here's my fruits- all 8 came out of my uterus. Homeschooled, christian, politically conservative Viva "virulent feminism" :rofl: 








​
2nuf, not triggered AT ALL BTW. 

Just concerned. 

Watched him around here for a long time with concern. Wilderness is young enough to be my child. If he was *my son* I would be supporting personal responsibility, counseling, a job, legal behavior, and respect for the law and for women. "Sow better my son and you will reap better in the future"


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## 2ntnuf

God will not stop others from hurting you, wilderness. He will not. 

Why, you ask?

Because we all have free will. He loves us all, no matter what we have done or not done, no matter what we will do. 

It really doesn't affect Him. 

If he stopped others from hurting you, would those He stops have true free will?

Who can influence how others treat you? Yes, he can, but most assuredly, He wants you to do it as much as is within the gifts and grace He has given, and will give you. 

Take up your cross and bear it, and follow Me. I forget who said that. I think it was someone important. It doesn't mean to roll over and play dead. It means to do what is within your power, without harming others, and with the love you would extend to a friend. 

Accept that they may not treat you well and when they don't, use what is provided you by this world to work within His commands to love God and love your neighbor as yourself(oops edit). 

That doesn't mean to lie down and let anyone walk on you. It means to get justice where available, but not at the expense of your soul. Sometimes, we must shake the dust from our feet, and walk away. 

Even the Lord was not welcome or believed in His own country. They tried to kill Him. How much more will we all suffer, when we cannot be as righteous as the Lord?

Edit2: There are consequences in this life and beyond, for things we all do that we are not truly sorry for having done. The ones in this life are controlled by man and influenced by the Word. The consequences in the next life, are eternal and we will, believe it or not, choose what happens and agree with the judge.

Edit3: I can't remember the scripture, but I know there is something that says, something like:

-This world in an unjust world.- 

It makes sense when you realise we are all sinners and fall well short of expectations.


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## wilderness

2ntnuf said:


> God will not stop others from hurting you, wilderness. He will not.
> 
> Why, you ask?
> 
> Because we all have free will. He loves us all, no matter what we have done or not done, no matter what we will do.
> 
> It really doesn't affect Him.
> 
> If he stopped others from hurting you, would those He stops have true free will?
> 
> Who can influence how others treat you? Yes, he can, but most assuredly, He wants you to do it as much as is within the gifts and grace He has given, and will give you.
> 
> Take up your cross and bear it, and follow Me. I forget who said that. I think it was someone important. It doesn't mean to roll over and play dead. It means to do what is within your power, without harming others, and with the love you would extend to a friend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Accept that they may not treat you well and when they don't, use what is provided you by this world to work within His commands to love God and love your neighbor as yourself(oops edit).
> 
> That doesn't mean to lie down and let anyone walk on you. It means to get justice where available, but not at the expense of your soul. Sometimes, we must shake the dust from our feet, and walk away.
> 
> Even the Lord was not welcome or believed in His own country. They tried to kill Him. How much more will we all suffer, when we cannot be as righteous as the Lord?


Amen, brother. Amen.

I don't think you get it, either...based on your last post. But you are obviously trying to help me. God bless you, sir.


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## wilderness

Blonde said:


> Here's my fruits- all 8 came out of my uterus. Homeschooled, christian, politically conservative Viva "virulent feminism" :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 2nuf, not triggered AT ALL BTW.
> 
> Just concerned.
> 
> Watched him around here for a long time with concern. Wilderness is young enough to be my child. If he was *my son* I would be supporting personal responsibility, counseling, a job, legal behavior, and respect for the law and for women. "Sow better my son and you will reap better in the future"


If this were your son going through this you would be outraged. And justifyably so. You are totally blind to what is happening in my life, because you refuse to see. Nevertheless, I will pray for you and your family. God bless.


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## Unique Username

And the WISDOM to know the difference


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## techmom

I know I've been harsh to you Wilderness, but if you do nothing else tonight please take the advice from 2nf. He has been where you are now. He knows what he speaks about and has lived it. It takes a strong man to experience the hell he did and not come out of it bitter and angry. You need to work through your anger because it is not serving you and it is not going to help strengthen your relationship with God. Please take care.

On a side note...Blonde, you have a very beautiful family, God bless!


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## over20

blonde your family is so beautiful!!


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## Wazza

Wilderness....if no one gets it like you do, maybe that indicates that we are all seeing something you are not.

My situation is different from yours. My pain is my wife's affair years ago and my struggles at reconciliation. But I get this, I can control me but not her. And there are always things about me I can improve.

If you focus on being better for your own sake, many other problems take care of themselves. It works.

Focussing on how wronged you are leads to bitterness. A lot of us can see you are falling headlong into that.

Learn from Zanne. After all the things you said on her thread she is trying to help you, looking for the positive. I dunno if I could do as well as she has.


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## turnera

wilderness said:


> Amen, brother. Amen.
> 
> I don't think you get it, either...based on your last post. But you are obviously trying to help me. God bless you, sir.


I have a question: Why is it that you believe that only people who 'get you' are worth listening to? Why is it so important? Why is someone else's advice invalid? Ask yourself that. 

I've never experienced infidelity, not in 35 years. But I give some damn good advice to people experiencing infidelity, because I'm logical. Because I read other threads and watch and wait and see what works and what doesn't.

I'm not a man, but I give damn good advice to men experiencing LD wives, WAWs, lazy wives, because I'm smart enough to read EVERYone's posts and see what's valuable in all them, and learn from them. 

That's all people are asking you to do - open your mind enough to see that there's a LOT of good advice here, if you would just stop defending yourself long enough, stop posturing long enough, stop casting off people long enough (not very Jesus-like, donchathink?) to ask yourself if their advice could help you.

So before you chase everyone away from your thread except the people stroking your ego, ask yourself what you really wanted when you posted.

btw, there's an old saying here: If someone says something that really really upsets you, there's a VERY GOOD CHANCE that it's because they hit on something you know about yourself that you just don't want to hear. I've seen it happen dozens of times here, and most usually come back and say, huh, you were right; I should have just listened, because I needed to change that about me, I just didn't want to hear it.


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## wilderness

Well everyone:

Just when things seemed darker than ever, I received the best news that I have in a very long time today.

I received a call from the director of probation. He is doing an investigation into abuse of the legal system by my ex and her mother. He wanted to know EVERYTHING. He actually listened to me. He wants to see the evidence that I have. He wants to talk to the witnesses that I have. He wants to meet with me this week.

I am finally feeling that there might be a light at the end of the tunnel.

Edit to add: once this information gets out there, I don't see how my ex can possibly continue these games.


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## 2ntnuf

Glad to read that, wilderness. Hope all works out well.


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## wilderness

2ntnuf said:


> Glad to read that, wilderness. Hope all works out well.


He just called me again! He said "this is some serious stuff…"

He wants to meet with me and one of my witnesses tomorrow.

I pray the Lord is about to deliver me.


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## 2ntnuf

Do not forget to be thankful. Whatever you do. Keep fighting, but be very careful.


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## wilderness

2ntnuf said:


> Do not forget to be thankful. Whatever you do. Keep fighting, but be very careful.


I'm going for broke. In for a penny, in for a pound.


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## 2ntnuf

If it's worth doing, it's worth doing the very best you can.


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## wilderness

2ntnuf said:


> If it's worth doing, it's worth doing the very best you can.


Amen. I have witnesses, documents, records, etc…
This guy is going to be blown away how horrible these people have been to me.


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## 2ntnuf

One step at a time. Play your cards close to the vest. Keep emotions out of it. Think of it as business. All business. Nothing more, nothing less. Keep a little anger close at hand. Just enough to make you do the right things and push you on. Use the anger to maintain your composure and will to fight for what is right. Do no harm. Business, all business. That's what it is to them.


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## wilderness

2ntnuf said:


> One step at a time. Play your cards close to the vest. Keep emotions out of it. Think of it as business. All business. Nothing more, nothing less. Keep a little anger close at hand. Just enough to make you do the right things and push you on. Use the anger to maintain your composure and will to fight for what is right. Do no harm. Business, all business. That's what it is to them.


Brother, I don't need emotion. The facts speak for themselves. The witnesses speak for themselves. The documents speak for themselves. I spoke to this guy for close to an hour today. He was obviously shocked at the depth of this abuse. All of my witnesses have impeccable reputations. Mental health professionals, police officers, members of the clergy. Women that say these people abused them. 

I pray the Lord delivers me. 
One of my favorite verses that I pray comes true:

'He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them that hated me: for they were too strong for me."
Psalm 18:17


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## BradWesley

Wilderness:

Did you ever present your evidence, documents, records, etc,. to your current attorney and/or any of your previous attorneys, and what did they say and/or do regarding the evidence?


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## wilderness

To all of my friends and supporters:

As mentioned previously, I received the break that I've been waiting for for years today. There is an investigation underway into abuse of the legal system by my ex and her mother. 

I thank you all for your help and patience with me. I know that I'm a firecracker and I can be tough to deal with. But I love my daughter and I know I'm in the right on this one. I know what I've been through and what my family has been through, and there is no way to describe the horror of these past few years.

I sense that that this thing is turning _right now_. I'm asking for help, but a specific type of help. Here is what I need:

1. I need your prayers. Anyone that believes on Jesus Christ, please pray for me, my daughter, and my family.
2. I need your suggestions and ideas. No idea is a bad one. NOW IS THE TIME. My daughter's life hangs in the balance. If she gets raised only by my ex and her mother, she will turn out the same way. That can't happen!!!!!!

Thank you to all who have tried to help me during this most trying time.

Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
Amen.


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## 2ntnuf

Prayers have been said and are ongoing.

Suggestions? You would have to be more specific. You have attorneys. They will guide you. 

In general, you don't want to be overly emotional. You need to provide information as requested. You need to know what you want to say and be calm and matter of fact, ignoring anything that is baiting. You learned some of that here, I imagine. The more you know, the less they can create fear within you. Have your papework in order and easily accessible when requested. Not sure what else to tell you.


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## wilderness

BradWesley said:


> Wilderness:
> 
> Did you ever present your evidence, documents, records, etc,. to your current attorney and/or any of your previous attorneys, and what did they say and/or do regarding the evidence?


I have tried a million times. They say that the evidence is not relevant or that the judge will not care. They say it would be politically incorrect to disclose that info. They say "that's not the way the system works".

As an example of what I'm talking about, I have not been able to find an attorney that would disclose to the court that my ex tried to leverage her criminal accusations into me signing away my rights forever as a father (she offered to drop all charges, the restraining order, and all future child support payments in exchange for me signing away my rights as a father). I fired my last probate lawyer because he refused to make this argument in front of the judge. So far, every attorney that I have retained or even consulted with has refused to disclose this.

This is not the only example of information that attorney's refuse to disclose, but it's probably the best one.


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## turnera

If every single attorney refuses to do it, there's probably a reason.


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## wilderness

2ntnuf said:


> Prayers have been said and are ongoing.
> 
> Suggestions? You would have to be more specific. You have attorneys. They will guide you.
> 
> In general, you don't want to be overly emotional. You need to provide information as requested. You need to know what you want to say and be calm and matter of fact, ignoring anything that is baiting. You learned some of that here, I imagine. The more you know, the less they can create fear within you. Have your papework in order and easily accessible when requested. Not sure what else to tell you.


Just the very fact that this investigation is underway is a means of leverage, I would think. Also there are several board of bar overseers complaints pending against her probate lawyer (a really really really bad person that has 0 problems lying to the court or court officials)

How can I use this information? Who besides this gentleman can I get this information to? Who will hear me? 

I've thought of trying to get a major news outlet to pick up my story but I don't have media contacts, for example.

Stuff like this.


----------



## karole

Why would you have a probate lawyer for a child custody issue? Perhaps you aren't hiring attorneys who specialize in the field you need, i.e., custody matters and/or family law.


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> If every single attorney refuses to do it, there's probably a reason.


My experience with the system is that this type of leverage is the 'dirty little secret' that no one wants to publicly disclose. It calls into question the whole damn system and no attorney wants to have judges and everyone else pissed off at them for questioning their credibility even if by insinuation.


----------



## wilderness

karole said:


> Why would you have a probate lawyer for a child custody issue? Perhaps you aren't hiring attorneys who specialize in the field you need, i.e., custody matters and/or family law.


'Probate court' is what they call family court here. It's the jurisdiction for custody matters to be adjudicated. 'Probate lawyer' I meant as the generic term for 'custody lawyer'.


----------



## 2ntnuf

late post. sorry.

Don't know that stuff. You are breaking reasonably new ground. I think, if you are doing this on your own, and it gets to a point that it's, "news worthy", you will have plenty of offers. I would imagine, all you can do it call around and ask. I'm not sure where you are going with this, but I do believe you need to be careful. 

I suppose you could look at other cases that went to the media and read how that was done. If you don't have an attorney guiding you, it will be tough to handle this. Newspapers, magazines and celebrity news type businesses would be interested if they can gain viewers or readers. 

Unless you are some very high profile personality, I'm not sure they will be interested. All you can do is try, though. I don't know, wilderness. This is beyond me. I give you credit for going, "balls to the wall". Not sure that's the best way, though. 

My prayers will be with you and your family.


----------



## wilderness

2ntnuf said:


> No surprises there.


There are many other things that the lawyers basically have stonewalled me on, refusing to disclose them. Here are a few examples:

1. They wouldn't disclose that my ex and her mother tried to bribe me prior to the filing the original criminal charge against me.
2. They wouldn't disclose that my ex has a long history of making false accusations and calling the police for no reason. This includes making accusations against her sister, my ex girlfriend, my father, my step father, and my mother.
3. They wouldn't disclose that she tried to threaten a female friend of mine into supporting her cause.
4. They wouldn't disclose that my ex has a history of physical abuse against me even though I have police reports as evidence and even though the police actually witnessed one of the incidents of abuse.
5. They wouldn't disclose that my exes mother assaulted my mother on multiple occasions.

These are just a few examples. There are many more.


----------



## turnera

So represent yourself and you can try to bring it all in yourself.


----------



## Unique Username

Probably because one cannot "disclose" hearsay

your "proof" may be hearsay in the eyes of the judicial system

Good Luck to you. 

But I would be temperate with my high hopes....this person is simply INVESTIGATING
doesn't mean your desired result has or will happen


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> So represent yourself and you can try to bring it all in yourself.


That is exactly what I decided to do recently. I just didn't bring it up because I knew that no one would agree with that move. Invariably this decision has led to people questioning my judgment, except those closest to me that have seen the whole thing. They know the score. Basically these people are all in bed together to a lesser or greater extent.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> My experience with the system is that this type of leverage is the 'dirty little secret' that no one wants to publicly disclose. It calls into question the whole damn system and no attorney wants to have judges and everyone else pissed off at them for questioning their credibility even if by insinuation.


If you say so.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> That is exactly what I decided to do recently. I just didn't bring it up because I knew that no one would agree with that move. Invariably this decision has led to people questioning my judgment, except those closest to me that have seen the whole thing. They know the score. Basically these people are all in bed together to a lesser or greater extent.


wilderness, no offense, but you sound a bit off. If you talk out loud the way you talk here, I would question your judgment, too.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> That is exactly what I decided to do recently. I just didn't bring it up because I knew that no one would agree with that move.


A reason for everything, right? *THEY *won't do it for me cos they're all in cahoots together and immoral. *I *didn't do it because no one would believe me/let me/hear me/whatever. Because you're the victim, everyone else has an agenda and deserves to be taken down, and no man ever gets fair treatment. Uh huh.


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> Probably because one cannot "disclose" hearsay
> 
> your "proof" may be hearsay in the eyes of the judicial system
> 
> Good Luck to you.
> 
> But I would be temperate with my high hopes....this person is simply INVESTIGATING
> doesn't mean your desired result has or will happen


It has nothing to do with hearsay. I have witnesses with first hand knowledge, so that's just an excuse (although I did have a judge use that excuse before even though I had direct first hand knowledge of what I was disclosing).

As to my proof being hearsay, that's just flat out nonsense. 

I'm not worried about being stonewalled by this guy. He is very clearly concerned about what is going on. I've had several family members reach out to him and he actually read what they wrote and is now investigating. He already knew some of the facts. He isn't playing a game, imo.


----------



## karole

Go to the website for the State Bar of your State and look for the disciplinary board. You can contact them directly for instructions on how to file a complaint against attorneys and/or judges.


----------



## wilderness

2ntnuf said:


> late post. sorry.
> 
> Don't know that stuff. You are breaking reasonably new ground. I think, if you are doing this on your own, and it gets to a point that it's, "news worthy", you will have plenty of offers. I would imagine, all you can do it call around and ask. I'm not sure where you are going with this, but I do believe you need to be careful.
> 
> I suppose you could look at other cases that went to the media and read how that was done. If you don't have an attorney guiding you, it will be tough to handle this. Newspapers, magazines and celebrity news type businesses would be interested if they can gain viewers or readers.
> 
> Unless you are some very high profile personality, I'm not sure they will be interested. All you can do is try, though. I don't know, wilderness. This is beyond me. I give you credit for going, "balls to the wall". Not sure that's the best way, though.
> 
> My prayers will be with you and your family.


I had no choice BUT to go balls to the walls. My ex and her mother are never going to stop until they get what they are after- total destruction.
Go big or go home.

Thank you for your help, sir.


----------



## wilderness

karole said:


> Go to the website for the State Bar of your State and look for the disciplinary board. You can contact them directly for instructions on how to file a complaint against attorneys and/or judges.


That's already been done. There are multiple pending complaints already. Thank you, though. Excellent suggestion. I'm also considering filing lawsuits.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> Yet another really bad person on this forum.
> Get lost, I don't need your mocking and ridicule.
> I know the truth.
> Now piss off.


What I expected. You're perfect and always the victim. No time or space for introspection because, well, why mess with perfection?


----------



## karole

wilderness said:


> That's already been done. There are multiple pending complaints already. Thank you, though. Excellent suggestion. I'm also considering filing lawsuits.


Something isn't right here.


----------



## Unique Username

You said that you have a job and that your ex and her Mother are always trying to cause problems with you at work

Yet - you are here on TAM 

ALL THE TIME
How does that work?


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> Yet another really bad person on this forum.
> Get lost, I don't need your mocking and ridicule.
> I know the truth.
> Now piss off.


Temper, Temper Wilderness

If you can't handle people with differing viewpoints on an Internet Forum

How do you think you will come across in court, or on TV or wherever


----------



## Fenris

wilderness said:


> Yet another really bad person on this forum.
> Get lost, I don't need your mocking and ridicule.
> I know the truth.
> Now piss off.


I've been reading around this board a lot longer than my sign up date will suggest.

If you asked me to make a list of the posters whose posts are almost always spot on and can make even the most stubborn person think about changing their mind, turnera would be very near the top of the list. 

Instead of discounting what she says as wrong out of hand, give them a read. Think about them. 

If all you want here is cheerleaders, then just post that to begin with. If you actually want HELP, then read her posts.

EDIT: And one more thing... Your saying "I'm a Christian" then following it up with "now piss off"... The latter really doesn't reflect the former.


----------



## 2ntnuf

wilderness,

Step back from this and get some perspective. 

If no attorney will take the case, it's because they know you will fail. Truly, you have to go on impartial evidence, legal citations, voice recordings, pictures, video, all taken or gotten legally. Even some of the stuff gotten illegally can help, but will only sway opinions and won't be presented in court. Those things are stumbling blocks and all attorneys use them. 

If your evidence is from doctors who have not seen your ex in therapy, they have little bearing on this, even though they are, Phd.'s. 

I don't .............I'm sorry, wilderness. I just cannot agree to a smear campaign. If she truly has done something and you have impartial evidence, like driving with your daughter in the car and texting, drinking and driving, doing illegal narcotics, leaving the child in the car and going into a store, not feeding, clothing or changing diapers or soiled clothing, not providing a safe and reasonably clean home, allowing boyfriends to treat her badly, etc., with pictures, arrest records, citations, doctors reports about your daughter, reports from some drug rehab clinic, or some other evidence obtained legally, 

you are making a mistake. It's a really big one, too, that will make your life a certain life of hell, guaranteed. Make no mistake about that. 

Remember we talked about life having consequences where God will not intervene? Be very careful. You could be falling right into their trap. 

I go back to my original posts and thoughts. Get into counseling and get perspective. Read over my other posts on this from yesterday.


----------



## Maricha75

wilderness said:


> Yet another really bad person on this forum.
> Get lost, I don't need your mocking and ridicule.
> I know the truth.
> Now piss off.


Ok, you're not going to like this, but I'm saying it anyway. The above quoted post is just one of many I have seen in this thread, where you told someone off, in a VERY un-Christ-like manner. This is the sort of thing many of us have been trying to get through to you for the last few days. THIS attitude, no matter how much you try to keep it back, DOES carry over into real life...even in a small amount. And when someone sees words like this, and then you say I'm a follower of Christ", they look at you funny... and with good reason! I've been there, more times than I can count, I'm afraid. But really, if you want God to show through in your life, THIS is not the way to do it. 


You want the truth to come out. Good. You want more access to your daughter. Great! This guy is actually asking questions, trying to get to the bottom of everything. WONDERFUL! But you know what you should be praying? "Lord, you know the desires of my heart. I put it all in YOUR hands. Not my will, but THINE be done." 

Yea, I know. I don't get it. I pray I never do "get it", in the sense that I never have to deal with an ex, and child custody battles, etc. But the one thing I DO get is that reacting to people, whether online or IRL, in the above manner, is NOT Christ-like. I'm far from a perfect Christian, and I have said things, even on here, which have often been in anger, frustration, and certainly not Christ-like. But I am truly trying to NOT act in that manner any longer.

Wilderness, I wish you well. I hope you find peace, no matter the outcome. God bless.


----------



## Zanne

Unique Username said:


> You said that you have a job and that your ex and her Mother are always trying to cause problems with you at work
> 
> Yet - you are here on TAM
> 
> ALL THE TIME
> How does that work?


LOL, that doesn't mean anything. At my last job, I was either on FB or taking care of personal matters half of my day. My job duties were complete well before noon, but I was required to "man the desk." Also, I'm a great multi-tasker. There are many jobs like this. All he needs is his phone in order to be on TAM 24/7.


----------



## TheCuriousWife

Zanne said:


> LOL, that doesn't mean anything. At my last job, I was either on FB or taking care of personal matters half of my day. My job duties were complete well before noon, but I was required to "man the desk." Also, I'm a great multi-tasker. There are many jobs like this. All he needs is his phone in order to be on TAM 24/7.


Just a lurker in this thread... But this is true. 

I'm on TAM everyday, and I'm also at work everyday.

I'm a secretary and I'm required to "man the desk." That includes reading TAM, watching youtube, and playing on facebook. lol


----------



## NobodySpecial

turnera said:


> A reason for everything, right? *THEY *won't do it for me cos they're all in cahoots together and immoral. *I *didn't do it because no one would believe me/let me/hear me/whatever. Because you're the victim, everyone else has an agenda and deserves to be taken down, and no man ever gets fair treatment. Uh huh.


I am going to go out there sort of jumping off tunera's 2 posts here. And, really, beleive it or not, I am not attacking or meaning to me mean or insulting.

The degree of rage, victim copping, delusion, and yes, I am sorry, thinking that god speaks to you in dreams. OP, keep working the legal system. But if you haven't, PLEASE get mental health help. Even to cope with the abuse you suffered at your ex-wife's hands.


----------



## lisab0105

WOW! I must say Wilderness, you do some great spin. 

You create a thread where it starts out at you being a skanky AP that thinks he is oh so special to his cheating whoring AP partner, than the thread manages to go into pages and pages of religious debate and now you have managed to dedicate the last 2 dozen or more pages to the persecution your ex has bestowed upon you. 

I don't feel sorry you. I don't believe you are as godly as you want people to believe you are. After all...you did sleep with another mans wife and have no intention of telling the truth. 
So as far as I can tell, you have no right to label anyone as "not a good person" because after the ***** you slept with you are second worst kind of person.


----------



## turnera

wilderness, truly I am not trying to hurt you. I'm trying to help you. By helping you see that your opinion that the world is tipped against you, that if we aren't 'for' you we're 'against' you, that all lawyers are corrupt and out to ruin you, that your ex is pure evil...just may need revisited. For YOUR sake.

I'm married to a carbon copy of you. He's never wrong. "They" are always out to get him. Nobody has the right answers like he does. If people would just listen. But they won't, cos, well, he's just too good and people just can't stand it so they try to tear him down.

It's so painful to watch him live his life like this, like you do, and know that, if he would just step back a bit and at least try to see things from someone else's perspective, just even entertain the thought that he might learn something from others, he could be a happier man. But he won't. He'll continue to be angry, mistreated, tilting his windmill. And I'll continue to sit by the sidelines, hoping to find the one thing that will spark something in him to help him find peace. I won't give up. Just like I won't give up on you. 

You might find peace. But it won't be at the end of a billion-dollar court battle.


----------



## Unique Username

I asked Wilderness

Not you Zanne


----------



## karole

turnera said:


> wilderness, truly i am not trying to hurt you. I'm trying to help you. By helping you see that your opinion that the world is tipped against you, that if we aren't 'for' you we're 'against' you, the all lawyers are corrupt and out to ruin you, that your ex is pure evil...
> 
> I'm married to a carbon copy of you. He's never wrong. "they" are always out to get him. Nobody has the right answers like he does. If people would just listen. But they won't, cos, well, he's just too good and people just can't stand it so they try to tear him down.
> 
> It's so painful to watch him live his life like this, like you do, and know that, if he would just step back a bit and at least try to see things from someone else's perspective, just even entertain the thought that he might learn something from others, he could be a happier man. But he won't. He'll continue to be angry, mistreated, tilting his windmill. And i'll continue to sit by the sidelines, hoping to find the one thing that will spark something in him to help him find peace. I won't give up. Just like i won't give up on you.
> 
> You might find peace. But it won't be at the end of a billion-dollar court battle.


amen sister!


----------



## Zanne

Unique Username said:


> Temper, Temper Wilderness
> 
> If you can't handle people with differing viewpoints on an Internet Forum
> 
> How do you think you will come across in court, or on TV or wherever


I will say this, it really sucks to have what appears to be the whole world against you. Also, this is his life right now, it probably consumes his every thought. He needs more positive IN, and the negative OUT.


----------



## Unique Username

TheCuriousWife said:


> Just a lurker in this thread... But this is true.
> 
> I'm on TAM everyday, and I'm also at work everyday.
> 
> I'm a secretary and I'm required to "man the desk." That includes reading TAM, watching youtube, and playing on facebook. lol


I know - me 2

BUT, I was asking WILDERNESS this question


----------



## Zanne

Unique Username said:


> I asked Wilderness
> 
> Not you Zanne


Oh, I'm sorry, I guess the cheerleader isn't suppose to offer opinions and counter points.


----------



## TheCuriousWife

turnera said:


> wilderness, truly I am not trying to hurt you. I'm trying to help you. By helping you see that your opinion that the world is tipped against you, that if we aren't 'for' you we're 'against' you, that all lawyers are corrupt and out to ruin you, that your ex is pure evil...just may need revisited. For YOUR sake.
> 
> I'm married to a carbon copy of you. He's never wrong. "They" are always out to get him. Nobody has the right answers like he does. If people would just listen. But they won't, cos, well, he's just too good and people just can't stand it so they try to tear him down.
> 
> It's so painful to watch him live his life like this, like you do, and know that, if he would just step back a bit and at least try to see things from someone else's perspective, just even entertain the thought that he might learn something from others, he could be a happier man. But he won't. He'll continue to be angry, mistreated, tilting his windmill. And I'll continue to sit by the sidelines, hoping to find the one thing that will spark something in him to help him find peace. I won't give up. Just like I won't give up on you.
> 
> You might find peace. But it won't be at the end of a billion-dollar court battle.


My father is EXACTLY like this. Everyone hates him, everyone is out to get him. The government... his family... his friends. If you accidentally left the light on or forgot to take your shoes off you were doing it on purpose to upset him. :scratchhead:

It emotionally scarred and traumatized me as a child. I am so glad to be out of that mess. Even as an adult I can barely stand to be around him for any length of time. 

I feel truly sorry for anyone who has that mindset, and also for their families. It is very damaging to everyone involved.


----------



## Unique Username

Zanne said:


> I will say this, it really sucks to have what appears to be the whole world against you. Also, this is his life right now, it probably consumes his every thought. He needs more positive IN, and the negative OUT.


I think Wilderness can fight his own battles Zanne

I have offered plenty of logical advice
as have many, many others

But hooray now he has a brand new band of followers to give him the attention (which is all he really wants anyway)

That is, until you disagree or show possible flaw in the thinking then we are evil haters who just don't get it


----------



## TheCuriousWife

Unique Username said:


> I know - me 2
> 
> BUT, I was asking WILDERNESS this question


I was just giving a viable solution as I lurked. No need to get snippy. 

I agree with many of your posts.


----------



## Unique Username

Zanne said:


> Oh, I'm sorry, I guess the cheerleader isn't suppose to offer opinions and counter points.


Nope,

not when it detracts from a legitimate question

and you've given him the answer


----------



## Unique Username

TheCuriousWife said:


> I was just giving a viable solution as I lurked. No need to get snippy. I agree with many of your posts.


I know

Not being snippy with you. I also agree with your posts

I just wanted him to answer without him being given an answer by others


----------



## TheCuriousWife

Unique Username said:


> I know
> 
> Not being snippy with you. I also agree with your posts
> 
> I just wanted him to answer without him being given an answer by others


:smthumbup:


----------



## 2ntnuf

Just wanted to interject the sentence, "I can be right, or I can be happy". 

wilderness, get into some good therapy. All of this has harmed you. Get some help and then see how you feel. In the mean time, go to parenting classes, read and know what parental alienation is, so if it ever does happen, you might have the tools to help yourself properly. Work to better you and all things you do. See your daughter and have fun with her. You will regret the chances you miss. Get the thoughts of how sweet your daughter is and how much she loves you and you love her back into your mind and think about how you can make her life and your's better. Remember, you have to have some money to take her out and buy her things. 

You will have to have some money to help her if she decides she wants to play soccer or softball, play in the band at school, join clubs, etc. You will need the tools to know how to help her succeed in what she does. You will need similar tools to help you succeed in life, so that you are able to provide for her needs. 

See? You must come first. You must be healthy and do well at your job to be able to help your daughter to have a happy life. If you achieve these, and show her love and kindness, she will be there for you when she is older. She will always love you and you will be her special daddy that no one can rip from her heart.


----------



## BradWesley

wilderness said:


> I have tried a million times. They say that the evidence is not relevant or that the judge will not care. They say it would be politically incorrect to disclose that info. They say "that's not the way the system works".
> 
> As an example of what I'm talking about, I have not been able to find an attorney that would disclose to the court that my ex tried to leverage her criminal accusations into me signing away my rights forever as a father (she offered to drop all charges, the restraining order, and all future child support payments in exchange for me signing away my rights as a father). I fired my last probate lawyer because he refused to make this argument in front of the judge. So far, every attorney that I have retained or even consulted with has refused to disclose this.
> 
> This is not the only example of information that attorney's refuse to disclose, but it's probably the best one.


There is nothing illegal about your example. Your ex, thru her attorney is negotiating or bargaining with you. Give up your right to your child, and she drops all charges, the restraining order and all future child support.

You elected not to, nothing illegal.


----------



## techmom

Wilderness reminds me of my hubby, either you are for him or against him. He takes no advice that is not wrapped in stroking his ego, and he knows all there is to know. There are times when I feel like walking away because this type of person is hard to relate to. They make no mistakes. 

I still feel a sense of sympathy towards the ex wife if this is what she had to deal with on a daily basis.


----------



## turnera

Last week, you said


wilderness said:


> What my ex and her mother are doing is flat out disgusting and despicable. It seems to me that you have some bizarre moral code where you think if a man makes some mistakes he deserves to have his life destroyed by lies, harassment, and PROVABLY false accusations.


And this:


> I truly believe in my heart that she belongs with me. My ex is not capable of raising a child.


You had several (at least) ONSs while married to her that you DO NOT COUNT as adultery, either because hey, it was only one night or hey, I have a 'problem' with sex, always have, as you said. You admit you had serious anger issues with her that you are now 'over' because you found God. But YOU weren't the one experiencing that anger; your wife was.

Some have asked you to try to see this from your ex's perspective. She was married to a man who repeatedly stepped out on her with other women and blamed it on his 'problem' with sex. She was married to a man who had 'issues' with anger.

Some of us are just suggesting that there is more to this situation than your side. There's yours, there's hers, and there's the truth. I think that if you were to try to take your emotion out of it, since you have said you have always been an emotional person, and see this whole situation the way an outsider (maybe the court reporter?) would. What would that person think is the best COMPROMISE for your child? I ask because I don't think you are approaching this with your child's best interests in mind, but yours.


----------



## Blondilocks

He would have to own his 'stuff' before being able to consider her perspective. He doesn't because in his mind her 'stuff' is way worse than the 'stuff' he pulled. Besides, that was before he found Christ.

Unfortunately, Wilderness did not factor in the 'woman scorned' and 'scorched earth' mentality his ex would assume once she got her fill of his garbage. Payback is a witch.


----------



## 2ntnuf

If you are not capable of taking care of your daughter, there is much less shame in admitting that, going to your attorney or whoever can modify that agreement, and changing your mind. 

If that is what you decide, it is best and you will have to abide by it and never bother them. You will have to live by the agreement. That is not always a bad thing. 

You do not write like a man who was ready to have children. You write more like a man who believes he has an obligation and is being forced, influenced, something, into living up to his responsibility through shaming tactics of the very people he loves and who do not truly know his heart, his family.


Edit: When we love someone with all our heart, we sometimes do things that are counter to our best interests. We think we will, "learn on the job". Others, usually family, tell us that it would be good for us or that we would be a great father/mother. We want to be. We want to believe them. We want to make them proud of us. We want to give our wives/husbands what we believe will make them happy.

Edit: When we fail because we didn't respect ourselves, we lose the most. It's much easier to tell a woman we are falling for, that we cannot or are not capable of, or do not want to, or cannot afford to, whatever the truth is, marry them or commit as they need, rather than to build on something we really want with all our heart and know deep inside, we cannot live up to. 

For me, and I am guessing many others, it is more respect worthy to see and admit mistakes, failings and weaknesses without blaming and with matter of fact acceptance and sincerity, than to attempt to do something that we know is nearly impossible for us. It just complicates the heck out of everything and makes a bigger mess. In the end, no one is happy. 

I have to admit. I met a woman between marriages, who I dearly loved and who I clicked with quite well. I was seriously considering committing to her. What held me back was the love and respect I had for her. I told her, I could not commit to helping raise someone's children. I could learn, but I really had no desire to do that. At the same time, I assured her there was nothing wrong with her children and I was beginning to love them, too. 

I hurt her. I am so sorry I did that. It is being honest with myself and her. We cannot know what is in store when we first go out with someone we like. At some point, we must be honest with ourselves and the ones we love and respect. 

She understood. To this day, anything she might ask me to do, I would seriously try to do it, if it was in my power to help. I miss her, but I never had the shredded heart that I have with this second divorce.


----------



## SadSamIAm

techmom said:


> Wilderness reminds me of my hubby, either you are for him or against him. He takes no advice that is not wrapped in stroking his ego, and he knows all there is to know. There are times when I feel like walking away because this type of person is hard to relate to. They make no mistakes.
> 
> I still feel a sense of sympathy towards the ex wife if this is what she had to deal with on a daily basis.


Does he also throw the 'found God' crap at you?

If not, imagine how much worse it could be.


----------



## Blondilocks

Yeah, the 'found God' line cracks me up. As though he is one of the hidden idols on Survivor. Was he under a rock, in a tree or suspended in a stream?


----------



## youkiddingme

It appears that talking to Wilderness is about as effective as talking to a rock. 

The only loser in this situation is the child. What a sad situation that she is going to have to try to grow up in.


----------



## wilderness

Fenris said:


> I've been reading around this board a lot longer than my sign up date will suggest.
> 
> If you asked me to make a list of the posters whose posts are almost always spot on and can make even the most stubborn person think about changing their mind, turnera would be very near the top of the list.
> 
> Instead of discounting what she says as wrong out of hand, give them a read. Think about them.
> 
> If all you want here is cheerleaders, then just post that to begin with. If you actually want HELP, then read her posts.
> 
> EDIT: And one more thing... Your saying "I'm a Christian" then following it up with "now piss off"... The latter really doesn't reflect the former.


Turnera mocked me for being falsely imprisoned, harrased, and abused. That's not ok. Period.


----------



## wilderness

2ntnuf said:


> wilderness,
> 
> Step back from this and get some perspective.
> 
> If no attorney will take the case, it's because they know you will fail. Truly, you have to go on impartial evidence, legal citations, voice recordings, pictures, video, all taken or gotten legally. Even some of the stuff gotten illegally can help, but will only sway opinions and won't be presented in court. Those things are stumbling blocks and all attorneys use them.
> 
> If your evidence is from doctors who have not seen your ex in therapy, they have little bearing on this, even though they are, Phd.'s.
> 
> I don't .............I'm sorry, wilderness. I just cannot agree to a smear campaign. If she truly has done something and you have impartial evidence, like driving with your daughter in the car and texting, drinking and driving, doing illegal narcotics, leaving the child in the car and going into a store, not feeding, clothing or changing diapers or soiled clothing, not providing a safe and reasonably clean home, allowing boyfriends to treat her badly, etc., with pictures, arrest records, citations, doctors reports about your daughter, reports from some drug rehab clinic, or some other evidence obtained legally,
> 
> you are making a mistake. It's a really big one, too, that will make your life a certain life of hell, guaranteed. Make no mistake about that.
> 
> Remember we talked about life having consequences where God will not intervene? Be very careful. You could be falling right into their trap.
> 
> I go back to my original posts and thoughts. Get into counseling and get perspective. Read over my other posts on this from yesterday.


It's like you haven't listened to anything that I've said. Are you really that incapable of listening? Again, my ex had me falsely imprisoned and is engaged in a harrassment campaign against me and my family. And I can prove all of this. Now someone has finally taken notice. *A gentleman has opened up an investigation into my ex and her mother abusing the legal system by making false accusations,.*

I can prove all this.

You have obviously failed to comprehend what I've plainly stated, repeatedly. I don't need nor want anymore of your advice as you refuse to listen.


----------



## wilderness

BradWesley said:


> There is nothing illegal about your example. Your ex, thru her attorney is negotiating or bargaining with you. Give up your right to your child, and she drops all charges, the restraining order and all future child support.
> 
> You elected not to, nothing illegal.


How about when she tried to bribe me, then when I refuse to give her money she filed a criminal charge against me? Is that illegal?

How about when her mother screamed at the top of her lungs to my mother attempting to intimidate her? Is that illegal?

How about when my ex threatened my female friend with going to police if she wouldn't testify against me? Was that illegal?

How about when my ex punched me in the face repeatedly?
Was that illegal?

How about when my ex robbed my mother out of 2500$?
Was that illegal?

How about when my exes probate lawyer claimed I was arrested and charged with assault and battery on a police officer, even though it never happened?
Was that illegal?

How about when my ex tried to run me over with a car and the police witnessed it?
Was that illegal?

How about when my ex perjured herself (which time?) in court?
Was that illegal?


----------



## wilderness

2ntnuf said:


> If you are not capable of taking care of your daughter, there is much less shame in admitting that, going to your attorney or whoever can modify that agreement, and changing your mind.
> 
> If that is what you decide, it is best and you will have to abide by it and never bother them. You will have to live by the agreement. That is not always a bad thing.
> 
> .


HOW DARE YOU MAKE SUCH A STATEMENT? 
I get falsely imprisoned, beaten, abused, and so does my family, and this is what you say? 
HOW DARE YOU?



> You do not write like a man who was ready to have children. You write more like a man who believes he has an obligation and is being forced, influenced, something, into living up to his responsibility through shaming tactics of the very people he loves and who do not truly know his heart, his family.


What the hell are you talking about? Where in the world do you get this ridiculous drivel? Let me tell you what I think- YOU read like a man that has absolutely ZERO ability to see the truth. YOU are not someone that I would ever trust, with anything. 



> Edit: When we love someone with all our heart, we sometimes do things that are counter to our best interests. We think we will, "learn on the job". Others, usually family, tell us that it would be good for us or that we would be a great father/mother. We want to be. We want to believe them. We want to make them proud of us. We want to give our wives/husbands what we believe will make them happy.
> 
> Edit: When we fail because we didn't respect ourselves, we lose the most. It's much easier to tell a woman we are falling for, that we cannot or are not capable of, or do not want to, or cannot afford to, whatever the truth is, marry them or commit as they need, rather than to build on something we really want with all our heart and know deep inside, we cannot live up to.
> 
> For me, and I am guessing many others, it is more respect worthy to see and admit mistakes, failings and weaknesses without blaming and with matter of fact acceptance and sincerity, than to attempt to do something that we know is nearly impossible for us. It just complicates the heck out of everything and makes a bigger mess. In the end, no one is happy.


All I have to say is, what the hell is wrong with you for writing this to me?





> I have to admit. I met a woman between marriages, who I dearly loved and who I clicked with quite well. I was seriously considering committing to her. What held me back was the love and respect I had for her. I told her, I could not commit to helping raise someone's children. I could learn, but I really had no desire to do that. At the same time, I assured her there was nothing wrong with her children and I was beginning to love them, too.
> 
> I hurt her. I am so sorry I did that. It is being honest with myself and her. We cannot know what is in store when we first go out with someone we like. At some point, we must be honest with ourselves and the ones we love and respect.
> 
> She understood. To this day, anything she might ask me to do, I would seriously try to do it, if it was in my power to help. I miss her, but I never had the shredded heart that I have with this second divorce


What does any of this have to do with anything?


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> wilderness, truly I am not trying to hurt you. I'm trying to help you. By helping you see that your opinion that the world is tipped against you, that if we aren't 'for' you we're 'against' you, that all lawyers are corrupt and out to ruin you, that your ex is pure evil...just may need revisited. For YOUR sake.
> 
> I'm married to a carbon copy of you. He's never wrong. "They" are always out to get him. Nobody has the right answers like he does. If people would just listen. But they won't, cos, well, he's just too good and people just can't stand it so they try to tear him down.
> 
> It's so painful to watch him live his life like this, like you do, and know that, if he would just step back a bit and at least try to see things from someone else's perspective, just even entertain the thought that he might learn something from others, he could be a happier man. But he won't. He'll continue to be angry, mistreated, tilting his windmill. And I'll continue to sit by the sidelines, hoping to find the one thing that will spark something in him to help him find peace. I won't give up. Just like I won't give up on you.
> 
> You might find peace. But it won't be at the end of a billion-dollar court battle.


What an incredibly absurd post. A man gets falsely imprisoned and has his life destroyed, and this is what you write? Insane. Ridiculous, nauseating. Disgusting.


----------



## wilderness

youkiddingme said:


> It appears that talking to Wilderness is about as effective as talking to a rock.
> 
> The only loser in this situation is the child. What a sad situation that she is going to have to try to grow up in.


Correct, my daughter is the loser in the situation because she has had her daddy taken away from her, falsely imprisoned, harassed, and abused.

And if you can't see that, then you are the one with the problem, not me.


----------



## wilderness

I cannot believe the level of mocking and scorn that I have received on this thread. I'm just beside myself with the way that I've been treated here. Most of you are not my friends. I know that my Lord will come for me and deliver me, in this life or the next.


----------



## wilderness

techmom said:


> Wilderness reminds me of my hubby, either you are for him or against him. He takes no advice that is not wrapped in stroking his ego, and he knows all there is to know. There are times when I feel like walking away because this type of person is hard to relate to. They make no mistakes.
> 
> I still feel a sense of sympathy towards the ex wife if this is what she had to deal with on a daily basis.


I can't think of one reason why anyone would support the false imprisonment of an innocent man or woman. That's not something that is EVER right. Not ever.


----------



## Blonde

wilderness,

Don't you think GOD could remove ALL obstacles and give you what you wanted? It isn't God's will for you to have custody of your 4 yo daughter and it is not going to happen.

Start asking Him where you need to grow.

At this point I doubt there is anyone on this thread who thinks you should have sole custody of your 4 year old daughter. And we have come to that conclusion by reading the evidence YOU have provided. You switch on a dime between love and hate for people on the thread. From what I have learned on TAM that is a characteristic of borderline/BPD. What happens when the child pisses you off, (which children have a tendency to do regularly)?

Go get some therapy.


----------



## Blondilocks

Breathe, Wilderness, breathe. Consider this thread the equivalent of a cross-examination by your ex's attorney and devise a way to keep your emotions in check. Calm, level-headed responses will serve you well when you do wind up in court doing battle for your baby. She's what matters!


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> I can't think of one reason why anyone would support the false imprisonment of an innocent man or woman. That's not something that is EVER right. Not ever.


key word, "INNOCENT"



wilderness said:


> Yes, you are right. *I definitely betrayed her. In other ways, too. Not just sexually. Honestly I was a pretty lousy husband* but a very good father.


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> wilderness,
> 
> Don't you think GOD could remove ALL obstacles and give you what you wanted? It isn't God's will for you to have custody of your 4 yo daughter and it is not going to happen.
> 
> Start asking Him where you need to grow.
> 
> At this point I doubt there is anyone on this thread who thinks you should have sole custody of your 4 year old daughter. And we have come to that conclusion by reading the evidence YOU have provided. You switch on a dime between love and hate for people on the thread. From what I have learned on TAM that is a characteristic of borderline. What happens when the child pisses you off, (which children have a tendency to do regularly)?
> 
> Go get some therapy.


Blonde-

First of all, speak for yourself, don't speak for everyone else. I do not hate anyone on this thread, even you. I am outraged. It is outrageous for anyone to support the false imprisonment of an innocent man. It is outrageous for anyone to support the abuse of a family. It is outrageous for anyone to support the abuse of the legal system in order to destroy the parent child relationship. It is outrageous for anyone to support the harm of an innocent child.

As for you, you see what you want to see. 
You want to believe that the legal system is fair and just, so you choose to believe that I am lying to you (I guess, I don't really get how anyone could support a man going to jail for getting into an argument without raising his voice when that same man was physically beaten).

Could I have reacted better to the outrageous behavior of you and others? Yes, I could have. However, I would like to see how you would react after enduring the level of abuse that I've endured.

I have never so much as raised my voice to my little girl. That is the truth, whether you believe it or not. And as mentioned, my ex and her mother would have readily admitted that I am a great father until the day that I caught her cheating.

You are wrong. Dead wrong.


----------



## wilderness

Blondilocks said:


> Breathe, Wilderness, breathe. Consider this thread the equivalent of a cross-examination by your ex's attorney and devise a way to keep your emotions in check. Calm, level-headed responses will serve you well when you do wind up in court doing battle for your baby. She's what matters!


I've never got an opportunity to speak in court, which is part of the problem. But your point is valid and fair, regardless.


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> key word, "INNOCENT"


That's not fair, Blonde. Being a lousy husband for a couple of years does not in anyway justify being falsely accused, harassed, falsely imprisoned, having my child taken from me, having my family be abused, etc etc...

You should also know that after I became a believer on the Lord Jesus Christ I improved as a husband. No, I was and am not perfect. That's not what this is about. Lack of perfection is no reason to abuse a person. If that were the case we would all be in jail.

Bottom line is that ou are trying to blame me for what has happened to me and what is happening to me and I refuse to accept that. Would you blame a battered woman for being beaten? Of course not. Victims of abuse are NOT to blame for their abuse.


----------



## wilderness

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then you win."
Mahatma Ghandi on nonviolent activism.

I will never sign away rights to my daughter.


----------



## Unique Username

"Then they tell you that you need professional counseling and a nap"

-UU on nonviolent advice giving in TAM


----------



## Maricha75

wilderness said:


> I will never sign away rights to my daughter.


Nobody here has even suggested that. The closest anyone has come to that is saying "not full custody". :scratchhead:


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> "Then they tell you that you need professional counseling and a nap"
> 
> -UU on nonviolent advice giving in TAM


You are among the people that have mocked me.
I find it outrageous that you would mock the victim of false imprisonment, harassment, abuse, and parental alienation.

I will never sign away rights to my daughter.


----------



## NobodySpecial

wilderness said:


> I cannot believe the level of mocking and scorn that I have received on this thread. I'm just beside myself with the way that I've been treated here. Most of you are not my friends. I know that my Lord will come for me and deliver me, in this life or the next.


What is sad is that that is all you see.


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> You are among the people that have mocked me.
> I find it outrageous that you would mock the victim of false imprisonment, harassment, abuse, and parental alienation.
> 
> I will never sign away rights to my daughter.


Not even once have I suggested anything of the sort.

I merely offered sage, solid and sane advice on getting counseling for yourself, your anger issues etc.

And offered suggestions on ways that you can have an outward appearance to others as a stable parent who could potentially regain the custody arrangement you desire.

You just don't listen to anyone that doesn't coddle you.


----------



## wilderness

Maricha75 said:


> Nobody here has even suggested that. The closest anyone has come to that is saying "not full custody". :scratchhead:


It was most certainly inferred by 2nut. Furthermore, what kind of logic assumes that someone capable of falsely imprisoning an innocent man deserves custody? This is misandry writ large.


----------



## Unique Username

How's the no contact going with the married ex-girlfriend you had sex with?

That's what you started this thread about.


----------



## Unique Username

"Success in life, in anything, 
depends upon the number of persons
that one can make himself agreeable to."
-Thomas Carlyle


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> Not even once have I suggested anything of the sort.
> 
> I merely offered sage, solid and sane advice on getting counseling for yourself, your anger issues etc.
> 
> And offered suggestions on ways that you can have an outward appearance to others as a stable parent who could potentially regain the custody arrangement you desire.
> 
> You just don't listen to anyone that doesn't coddle you.


I did not say that you suggested it and I'm sorry if it came across that way. As to your suggestions, they have not only been tried- for years- they are insulting. I deserve to have my name cleared after years of smear campaigns, harassment, and abuse. I deserve to have my finances restored that I have lost after years of fighting a court and a system that doesn't care about truth, children, or justice. My daughter deserves to be raised by a parent capable of loving her and protecting her (that's me). My daughter deserves to be protected from an abusive situation (that's my ex). My parents and loved ones deserve to be recompansed for the hell that my ex has put them through. 

The truth needs to be revealed, heard, and examined. The lies, manipulation of the system, and triangulation need to be stopped and reversed.

I want to make myself clear about one thing, however. Mercy triumphs justice. I would be more than willing to forgive and move on, even try to be friends with my ex and her mother. They do not want that. That is not an option for me. If it were, I would jump all over it. I would be more than willing to be flexible and negotiate. They do not want that. This has been tried 100x over. It does not work. They want what they want which is for me and my family to be totally out of the picture, and that will NEVER happen as I will NEVER give up on my daughter.

I will never sign away my rights to my daughter.


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> "Success in life, in anything,
> depends upon the number of persons
> that one can make himself agreeable to."
> -Thomas Carlyle


Don't you see the implications and inferences of the things you post?


----------



## Unique Username

"The more you say, the less people remember."
- François Fénelon


----------



## Unique Username

"The most important single ingredient in the formula of success is the knack of getting along with people."
- Theodore Roosevelt


----------



## wilderness

NobodySpecial said:


> What is sad is that that is all you see.


No, that's not the sad part. The sad part is the virulent feminist mindset that presumes to make it ok to shamefully and continually abuse an innocent man and harm his child.

You should be _outraged _ at what has happened to me and is happening. So should everyone.


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> "The most important single ingredient in the formula of success is the knack of getting along with people."
> - Theodore Roosevelt


I will never get along with anyone that supports the severe abuse of innocent people. That is something that will never be ok.


----------



## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> I will never get along with anyone that supports the severe abuse of innocent people. That is something that will never be ok.


Are you talking about Me or Theodore Roosevelt?

Because neither of us, that I am aware, support the abuse of anyone.


----------



## Unique Username

"Grant that we may not so much seek to be understood as to understand."
Saint Francis of Assisi


----------



## BradWesley

wilderness said:


> No, that's not the sad part. The sad part is the virulent feminist mindset that presumes to make it ok to shamefully and continually abuse an innocent man and harm his child.
> 
> You should be _outraged _ at what has happened to me and is happening. So should everyone.


Well I see the old wilderness is back, spewing his anti-women venom.

Ladies feel free to rip him a new one!

I'm outta this thread


----------



## Maricha75

wilderness said:


> You are among the people that have mocked me.
> I find it outrageous that you would mock the victim of false imprisonment, harassment, abuse, and parental alienation.
> 
> I will never sign away rights to my daughter.


No. What UU, as well as some others, has done is point out inconsistencies in some of your posts. For instance, posting that you put your trust in God, you are a follower of Jesus... then telling more than one person to "piss off". 

Yea, I know, I'm likely to go into the category of the mockers. But I'm not. Not even close. Yes, it IS outrageous that someone is falsely incarcerated. Yes, it is incredibly unfair that someone is harassed, abused, and even being kept from seeing his child. All of this, I completely agree with.

Unfortunately, JUST LIKE THE REST OF US, your character shows in your posts. In one day, you go from praising one person's posts to telling them off. And it's not just saying "I disagree with what you're saying..." and keeping it a civil tone. No, you jump in, and go off. We all have good days and bad days... ALL of us. The majority, however, do not have good and bad days on the same day! Well, not unless they are trying to get a rise out of people.

I apologize for stating that no one has said for you to sign away your rights. It was pointed out to me that one person did. ONE, out of how many? And that person confined it to ONE post. One post, out of many pages... and many other things were stated in that post as well. THAT was the only thing you latched onto. And because it was stated that maybe you weren't quite ready and feel obligated, you jump to the conclusion that the person is now out to get you, just like everyone else. We are NOT out to get you. All we, as a whole, are trying to do is make you see that you need to CALM DOWN. The hostility you project here, I GUARANTEE carries over into your real life. Guarantee. 

Now, I'll ask, but I already know the answer.... have you forgiven your ex-wife? Have you forgiven your ex-mother-in-law? Yes, I know, they are still doing all the harassment, and abuse. But do you remember what Jesus said, when the soldiers were nailing Him to the cross? "father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Yea, they knew what they were doing...they were driving nails into His hands and feet, and crucifying Him. But, Jesus STILL forgave them, and asked His Father to forgive them. Forgiving your ex doesn't mean you are a doormat. It doesn't mean you are giving up. It means YOU are a DIFFERENT PERSON. You are REALLY a different person. You can say you don't hate her as much as you wish. But your posts say otherwise. And as long as you hold onto that, I've already stated, it separates you rom God...

"Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions." Mark 11:25-26

"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions." Matthew 6:14-15

It doesn't mean what they have done is right...it means you are not letting THEIR actions lead your life!


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> Are you talking about Me or Theodore Roosevelt?
> 
> Because neither of us, that I am aware, support the abuse of anyone.


Sure you have, albeit tacitly.
You have repeatedly suggested subtly that I am the cause of this abuse:



> SO - if we - the anonymous internet armchair counselors can see his rage/anger issues and one-sided train of thought
> 
> Imagine how the court system, judges and attorneys and county jail folks see him.


Now, why, I ask you, would you suggest this? It certainly isn't because there is any shred of truth to what you suggest as I have never in my life showed even the tiniest display of anger to court officials. What I have done, and what I suspect is the _real_ issue, is that I have told the truth whenever asked. 

And talk about a red herring! _Even if_ what you say were true (and it most certainly is NOT true), how does this make me responsible for being falsely accused, harassed, imprisoned, etc...?

IT DOESN'T. The fact of the matter is that a person's attitude is not the barometer by which legal matters are supposed to be adjudicated in this nation, _evidence, witnesses, and facts are_. As such, you are simply making a wrong assumption and trying to tie it to me in a manner to try and pin the accountability where it does not belong- with the victim (me). That's not cool.

I guarantee you that any woman of abuse that comes to you in real life or on this forum will not receive the same response from you.


----------



## Maricha75

wilderness said:


> It was most certainly inferred by 2nut. Furthermore, what kind of logic assumes that someone capable of falsely imprisoning an innocent man deserves custody? This is misandry writ large.


Wait, so now *I* hate men? Really??? Wow....


----------



## Unique Username

SO - if we - the anonymous internet armchair counselors can see his rage/anger issues and one-sided train of thought 

Imagine how the court system, judges and attorneys and county jail folks see him.

That is pretty straight forward Wilderness.

If you act the way you do here with us, in court

then the Court will not take you seriously at all

If a Woman were to be so short-sighted as you
To be a broken record, I would INDEED give her the SAME response as I have you

I don't care what your gender is. I don't give one suggestion to females and another to males.

I give suggestion based on the POSTER, their circumstance and their demeanor through their postings (old and new - and the threads they have started)


----------



## wilderness

Maricha75 said:


> No. What UU, as well as some others, has done is point out inconsistencies in some of your posts. For instance, posting that you put your trust in God, you are a follower of Jesus... then telling more than one person to "piss off".
> 
> Yea, I know, I'm likely to go into the category of the mockers. But I'm not. Not even close. Yes, it IS outrageous that someone is falsely incarcerated. Yes, it is incredibly unfair that someone is harassed, abused, and even being kept from seeing his child. All of this, I completely agree with.
> 
> Unfortunately, JUST LIKE THE REST OF US, your character shows in your posts. In one day, you go from praising one person's posts to telling them off. And it's not just saying "I disagree with what you're saying..." and keeping it a civil tone. No, you jump in, and go off. We all have good days and bad days... ALL of us. The majority, however, do not have good and bad days on the same day! Well, not unless they are trying to get a rise out of people.
> 
> !


Listen, I am by no means perfect. Not in the slightest. I understand and acknowledge that I have character flaws that I need to work through. We all do. That being said, those character flaws don't in anyway abrogate the fact that what is happening to me and my family IS NOT OK. What you call 'disagreeing with me' or 'a different perspective' are really just people mocking me and/or defending severe abuse against me, my family, and my daughter. Check out the most recent exchange between me and Turnera. I disclosed that various attorney's that represented me in my case have been unwilling to reveal exculpatory evidence to the judge that I believe could help me, my family, and my daughter. I then disclosed my opinion on _why_ I believe these lawyers won't reveal this information. Turnera then responded in a mocking and sarcastic tone about a lack of personal accountability, and it's always someone else's fault, victim mentality, et al... 
In short, a totally outrageous response given the information I provided. That's not a 'difference of opinion', it's an accusation based upon an assumption that is *totally* wrong. My reaction was certainly not something to be proud of, but it irks me that you are trying to hold my feet to the fire for a reaction to _a totally outrageous series of comments by Turnera_.



> I apologize for stating that no one has said for you to sign away your rights. It was pointed out to me that one person did. ONE, out of how many? And that person confined it to ONE post. One post, out of many pages... and many other things were stated in that post as well. THAT was the only thing you latched onto. And because it was stated that maybe you weren't quite ready and feel obligated, you jump to the conclusion that the person is now out to get you, just like everyone else. We are NOT out to get you. All we, as a whole, are trying to do is make you see that you need to CALM DOWN. The hostility you project here, I GUARANTEE carries over into your real life. Guarantee.


You are absolutely right that I'm hostile about that suggestion. That suggestion was one of the most offensive things that anyone has ever said to me in my entire life. And again, _totally outrageous._ Falsely imprisoned, falsely accused, abused, physically assaulted, harassed, etc... and I'm the one that shouldn't have custody? That is flat out absurd. Period.




> Now, I'll ask, but I already know the answer.... have you forgiven your ex-wife? Have you forgiven your ex-mother-in-law? Yes, I know, they are still doing all the harassment, and abuse. But do you remember what Jesus said, when the soldiers were nailing Him to the cross? "father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Yea, they knew what they were doing...they were driving nails into His hands and feet, and crucifying Him. But, Jesus STILL forgave them, and asked His Father to forgive them. Forgiving your ex doesn't mean you are a doormat. It doesn't mean you are giving up. It means YOU are a DIFFERENT PERSON. You are REALLY a different person. You can say you don't hate her as much as you wish. But your posts say otherwise. And as long as you hold onto that, I've already stated, it separates you rom God...


I think that I've progressed pretty far in forgiving my ex and her mother. I pray for them all the time and I wish good things for them. What I'm really struggling with, to be totally honest with, is dealing with people such as you see on this thread. The 'he must have done something to deserve this', 'courts don't imprison innocent people', and other such attitudes.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> Turnera mocked me for being falsely imprisoned, harrased, and abused. That's not ok. Period.


I have not mocked you. I have asked you to look at your situation honestly and without bias.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> I can't think of one reason why anyone would support the false imprisonment of an innocent man or woman. That's not something that is EVER right. Not ever.


Show me where any of us SUPPORTED what happened to you.

We are not here to be your cheering squad. We are here to help you find ways to work through the quagmire. Ways that are not destructive, that are smart, that do the least amount of damage to your daughter.

It's your choice to listen or not.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> Correct, my daughter is the loser in the situation because she has had her daddy taken away from her, falsely imprisoned, harassed, and abused.
> 
> And if you can't see that, then you are the one with the problem, not me.


Wilderness, if you could control yourself enough to react with calm, integrity, and peace, and not view this as an epic battle to crush the evil witch who tried to destroy you, your daughter would not be the loser. She would have a dad who takes the high road no matter what, who remains calm, who lets his lawyers do what they went to school for 10 years to learn and stop firing them when they don't do what he wants...that dad she would gravitate toward and would be yours no matter what your ex does to you and your family.

Instead, your 'Christian' choice is to blast anyone and everyone who dares question you, to denigrate people for asking you to look inside yourself and ask if you can improve. It's your choice, remain the person who can't control his sexual urges, who cheats, yet uses Jesus to justify things, or you can embrace Jesus and ask him to guide you to a life of peace and humility. We're still waiting for that. For your sake. I want you to be happy and at peace. But it has to start with you.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> Blonde-
> so you choose to believe that I am lying to you


Where have we called you a liar? You equate asking you to look at your own behavior with calling you a liar. Not cool. And passive aggressive.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then you win."
> Mahatma Ghandi on nonviolent activism.
> 
> I will never sign away rights to my daughter.


None of us ever suggested you do, did we?


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> It was most certainly inferred by 2nut. Furthermore, what kind of logic assumes that someone capable of falsely imprisoning an innocent man deserves custody? This is misandry writ large.


Fancy words don't make you right. As I have said, we have your side, we don't have her side, and we don't have the real truth.

If she is pushing THAT HARD to keep you from getting custody, it's possible that she sees a reason to do so that doesn't come from the pits of Hell. We have no idea.


----------



## turnera

BradWesley said:


> Well I see the old wilderness is back, spewing his anti-women venom.
> 
> Ladies feel free to rip him a new one!
> 
> I'm outta this thread


I was surprised at first that he was so very very polite and understanding and Jesus-like. I'm usually a good read on the way people write. I suspected that he was nice as long as he was getting the feedback he wanted. I guess I was right. I feel sad for you, wilderness, that you have suffered so much. I feel more sad that you can't see that you're perpetuating your own situation.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> Sure you have, albeit tacitly.
> You have repeatedly suggested subtly that I am the cause of this abuse
> 
> Now, why, I ask you, would you suggest this? It certainly isn't because there is any shred of truth to what you suggest as I have never in my life showed even the tiniest display of anger to court officials.


No, just to your wife. 

Which she has most likely DOCUMENTED extremely well and presented it to the court. Just like you are doing.


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> Wilderness, if you could control yourself enough to react with calm, integrity, and peace, and not view this as an epic battle to crush the evil witch who tried to destroy you, your daughter would not be the loser. She would have a dad who takes the high road no matter what, who remains calm, who lets his lawyers do what they went to school for 10 years to learn and stop firing them when they don't do what he wants...that dad she would gravitate toward and would be yours no matter what your ex does to you and your family.
> 
> Instead, your 'Christian' choice is to blast anyone and everyone who dares question you, to denigrate people for asking you to look inside yourself and ask if you can improve. It's your choice, remain the person who can't control his sexual urges, who cheats, yet uses Jesus to justify things, or you can embrace Jesus and ask him to guide you to a life of peace and humility. We're still waiting for that. For your sake. I want you to be happy and at peace. But it has to start with you.


Now you are taking a shot at me for firing my lawyers, huh? Well let me respond to your outrageous accusation : 
I went from having my daughter 5 nights a week to barely seeing her at all. This was after taking care of her when she was a colicky baby. All night long so she could be properlycared for as my ex wife was too lazy to do so. Then I caught her cheating, she wanted money and threatened me and my mom that shewoild go to the police and we would never see her again.

The lawyers promised me the world but have produced NOTHING. Now I'm bankrupt and I couldn't hire another one even if I wanted to. Meanwhile my daughter cries and hides under the
rbed when its time to go home. She asks me "dada why cant I see you more? "
I told her I would fight for her and I would never stop.fighting. I don't want her growing up with ABUSERS. 

So sure I could shut my mouth and stop fighting ad you suggest. But the cost would be my relationship with my daughter will be finished. If I don't keep fighting I will probably never see her again.


----------



## turnera

Show me where I said to stop fighting.

I said to fight SMARTER.


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> No, just to your wife.
> 
> Which she has most likely DOCUMENTED extremely well and presented it to the court. Just like you are doing.


Nonsense. She doesn't have a shred of evidence. Not one shred.


----------



## wilderness

T


turnera said:


> I was surprised at first that he was so very very polite and understanding and Jesus-like. I'm usually a good read on the way people write. I suspected that he was nice as long as he was getting the feedback he wanted. I guess I was right. I feel sad for you, wilderness, that you have suffered so much. I feel more sad that you can't see that you're perpetuating your own situation.


This is EXACTLY the type of post that I have a problem with. You are ACCUSING me of 'perpetuating' my situation. Outrageous. Simply outrageous.


----------



## pidge70

How old are you?


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> Fancy words don't make you right. As I have said, we have your side, we don't have her side, and we don't have the real truth.
> 
> If she is pushing THAT HARD to keep you from getting custody, it's possible that she sees a reason to do so that doesn't come from the pits of Hell. We have no idea.


You are overtly implying that I am lying. Add this to your growing this of outrageous insults.


----------



## wilderness

It is appalling that no one has come to my defense. What 2nut wrote, especially, was one of the most offensive things ive ever seen in my life. Very well, I press on, alone.


----------



## Unique Username

Unique Username said:


> "The more you say, the less people remember."
> - François Fénelon


I like this quote - seems to be working for him

So - How IS that No-Contact going with the married ex-girlfriend you had sex with and were seeking counsel about how to get right with god and still be able to fvck her?


----------



## pidge70

wilderness said:


> It is appalling that no one has come to my defense. What 2nut wrote, especially, was one of the most offensive things ive ever seen in my life. Very well, I press on, alone.


You don't *trust *any of us. Why would you want any one of us to defend you?


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> They want what they want which is for me and my family to be totally out of the picture.


I understand why they would want that.

Wilderness, GOD can move mountains and He hasn't moved this one.

He has His reasons...

You are a young man with a long life in front of you. Put your daughter on the altar and leave her in God's hands like Abraham did with Isaac.


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> I like this quote - seems to be working for him
> 
> So - How IS that No-Contact going with the married ex-girlfriend you had sex with and were seeking counsel about how to get right with god and still be able to fvck her?


That is not what I did, and you know it.


----------



## pidge70

> The emotion that I felt when I heard this overwhelmed me. I had previously thought that I had meant nothing to her. And I gave in to temptation and had sex with her. She says she wants to divorce either way, but that she wants a future with me.
> 
> Is there anyway this could be made right in God's eyes? I feel horrible about harming an innocent man and child. I know I shouldn't have had sex with her. But I still love her, more than ever.


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> I understand why they would want that.
> 
> Wilderness, GOD can move mountains and He hasn't moved this one.
> 
> He has His reasons...
> 
> You are a young man with a long life in front of you. Put your daughter on the altar and leave her in God's hands like Abraham did with Isaac.


I am dumbfounded at your nerve, Blonde. You basically called me a liar and said I deserved to go to prison (paraphrase) and then you presume to give me advice? Wow do you have gall.


----------



## wilderness

To describe that quote as UU did, especially when you consider the full body of all of my quotes, is one hell of a leap. You are quoting me out of context.


----------



## Blonde

I'm unsubmissive and unashamed

OW take note how he treats unsubmissive women.

If your treatment of people on this thread is any indication of how you treated your WIFE, no wonder she has a restraining order and does not want you to have custody, wilderness.

YOU are your own worst enemy!!!!!


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> I'm unsubmissive and unashamed
> 
> OW take note how he treats unsubmissive women.
> 
> If your treatment of people on this thread is any indication of how you treated your WIFE, no wonder she has a restraining order and does not want you to have custody, wilderness.
> 
> YOU are your own worst enemy!!!!!


You really are a sick twisted person to complain about the way ive treated you after everything you've said about me.


----------



## Blonde

I would not call it "complaining". It is an observation.

Wilderness, YOU are your own worst enemy.

Pray about that and ask God if I am right.

You go to "sick and twisted" "abusive" "virulent feminist", etc

IMO, it's ALL projection (change feminist to misogynist)

AND wouldn't surprise me if your wife dealt with this kind of verbal abuse routinely and wants to protect and spare your daughter from it.

If you would be broken in the biblical sense of the word and humble, I think you would find God much more responsive to your prayers.

As long as you are lurching to things like adultery with another man's wife, I don't think your life is going to prosper.

You have sown and reaped badly. Sow better and you will reap better.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> T
> 
> This is EXACTLY the type of post that I have a problem with. You are ACCUSING me of 'perpetuating' my situation. Outrageous. Simply outrageous.


You sure love to throw words like outrageous at people, don't you? It helps you hide behind your façade of wounded warrior. Whatever works.

I never said you were perpetuating anything. I am saying that you're your own worst enemy. That if you would just find your core humility, and shed the tough armor, as you APPEARED to do at your first post, you would be able to find your peace, your way toward achieving what you want in life. But you're too busy proving how everyone is against you. It's a learned behavior, likely from childhood. But it's not a healthy one. At some point in your life, you'll decide it's not working for you, and you'll approach all the bad things that have happened to you with a sense of choosing what works for everyone, not just your bruised ego. That's all I want for you.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> Nonsense. She doesn't have a shred of evidence. Not one shred.


Uh, dude, you admitted yourself that you have an anger problem and treated your wife wrong, and your response is 'where's the proof?'?


----------



## Unique Username

de·lu·sion noun \di-ˈlü-zhən, dē-\
: a belief that is not true : a false idea

: a false idea or belief that is caused by mental illness

Full Definition of DELUSION
1
: the act of deluding : the state of being deluded
2
a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated
b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs
— de·lu·sion·al adjective
— de·lu·sion·ary adjective

Examples of DELUSION

He is living under the delusion that he is incapable of making mistakes.

As the illness progressed, his delusions took over and he had violent outbursts.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delusion


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> You sure love to throw words like outrageous at people, don't you? It helps you hide behind your façade of wounded warrior. Whatever works.
> 
> I never said you were perpetuating anything. I am saying that you're your own worst enemy. That if you would just find your core humility, and shed the tough armor, as you APPEARED to do at your first post, you would be able to find your peace, your way toward achieving what you want in life. But you're too busy proving how everyone is against you. It's a learned behavior, likely from childhood. But it's not a healthy one. At some point in your life, you'll decide it's not working for you, and you'll approach all the bad things that have happened to you with a sense of choosing what works for everyone, not just your bruised ego. That's all I want for you.


I was falsely imprisoned for 26 days, and you accuse me of having a facade of being wounded? Appalling. You need to take a good hard look in the mirror, because you are not what you portray yourself to be.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> It is appalling that no one has come to my defense. What 2nut wrote, especially, was one of the most offensive things ive ever seen in my life. Very well, I press on, alone.


Appalling, offensive...I press on alone...true to form, wilderness. Unfortunately.

I'll go ahead and reiterate what someone else has suggested. Get yourself to a psychologist and see what he says (I know you'll never see a female psychologist).


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> That is not what I did, and you know it.


Actually, in your first posts, you said you were waiting for your woman to divorce her husband so that you could THEN start having sex with her again.

How is this not what you did?


----------



## Blonde

Could GOD have prevented the imprisonment?

Yep. But HE didn't :scratchhead:

How about asking yourself WHY? WHAT lesson did GOD have in that experience for you?

Didn't you quote this earlier? 

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”​


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> As the illness progressed, his delusions took over and he had violent outbursts.
> 
> Delusion - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


You have now turned a corner and have stooped to the level of falsely accusing a VICTIM of physical abuse of being violent. The things that are beingvsaid about me on this thread are horrible. Just horrible.


----------



## Unique Username

para·noia noun \ˌper-ə-ˈnȯi-ə, ˌpa-rə-\
medical : a serious mental illness that causes you to falsely believe that other people are trying to harm you

: an unreasonable feeling that people are trying to harm you, do not like you, etc.

Full Definition of PARANOIA

1
: a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
2
: a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others
— para·noi·ac also para·noic adjective or noun
— para·noi·cal·ly adverb

Medical Definition of PARANOIA

1
: a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
2
: a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others

Paranoia - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> I was falsely imprisoned for 26 days, and you accuse me of having a facade of being wounded? Appalling. You need to take a good hard look in the mirror, because you are not what you portray yourself to be.


Pray tell, what do I portray myself to be, lol?


----------



## wilderness

Blonde said:


> I would not call it "complaining". It is an observation.
> 
> Wilderness, YOU are your own worst enemy.
> 
> Pray about that and ask God if I am right.
> 
> You go to "sick and twisted" "abusive" "virulent feminist", etc
> 
> IMO, it's ALL projection (change feminist to misogynist)
> 
> AND wouldn't surprise me if your wife dealt with this kind of verbal abuse routinely and wants to protect and spare your daughter from it.
> 
> If you would be broken in the biblical sense of the word and humble, I think you would find God much more responsive to your prayers.
> 
> As long as you are lurching to things like adultery with another man's wife, I don't think your life is going to prosper.
> :rofl:
> You have sown and reaped badly. Sow better and you will reap better.



Look on the mirror, Blonde. Look in the mirror.


----------



## Unique Username

Re: Post from a hypocrite (me)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unique Username View Post

As the illness progressed, his delusions took over and he had violent outbursts.

Delusion - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

You have now turned a corner and have stooped to the level of falsely accusing a VICTIM of physical abuse of being violent. The things that are beingvsaid about me on this thread are horrible. Just horrible.

If the Shoe Fits

But I didn't write that portion you took out - if you follow the link to the Miriam-Webster Dictionary it is STRAIGHT off the page in describing 

DELUSION


----------



## Unique Username




----------



## Blonde

turnera said:


> Actually, in your first posts, you said you were *waiting for your woman* to divorce her husband so that you could THEN start having sex with her again.
> 
> How is this not what you did?


Correction, all she had to do is make some "divorce noises". 


wilderness said:


> This is it. My decision.
> 
> I've never been someone that believes in half measures or being lukewarm. I'm either allin or all out.
> 
> In this case, I'm going to assume everything that she has told me is the truth. What to do from here-
> 
> 1.* I'm not going to fvck her again until the process of divorce moves forward. * No matter what.
> 2. My heart will remain with her, 1000%, until and unless she proves that she was lying or changes her mind.
> 3. I will start a fast tomorrow.
> 4. I will let God work it out.
> 5. The rest of the details are between her, me, her husband, and God.
> 
> Thank you all for your advice. Some of it was very good. Amen.


----------



## Unique Username

Maybe the Paranoia and Delusions were brought on by the fasting

Are you still fasting?


----------



## Blonde

wilderness said:


> Look on the mirror, Blonde. Look in the mirror.


----------



## Decorum

wilderness said:


> It is appalling that no one has come to my defense. What 2nut wrote, especially, was one of the most offensive things ive ever seen in my life. Very well, I press on, alone.



Wilderness preemptively sabotages his relationships to prevent self-disclosure.
You don’t know me, I don’t trust you, you have no idea, you can’t possibly understand.

He recognizes that he is different and feels isolated, and socially detached. Like he is in a life experience that most people cannot really relate to, even though his experience is mundane. He may even feel like a third party observer of his life, watching himself go through the motions.

This disconnect is rooted in his need to protect himself. Who knows how this malady was inflicted upon him. Perhaps in his youth.

Let’s just assume that his wife is every bit as despicable as he says she is, that still does not make him good. Could the dysfunction that we can so clearly see in him be exacerbated by his circumstances, of course, but there is no way it was absent in all his relationships before, likely every adults relationship in his life had the hallmarks of it.

His constant testing and self-promotion in a relationship would be hard for a saint to live with, let alone someone as despicable as his ex is.

He has a root of bitterness that is observable from outer space.

The scriptures would call this “Falling short of the grace of God”
Hebrews 12:15-17
See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

He gets the law. The right and wrong. He knows that having sex with a married lady is wrong but he is missing the grace of God.

Granted he is an immature Christian, but the problems that he is having are in some measure a result of the bondage he is in, bondage he had before becoming a Christian, and a bondage he is running away from now. He needs spiritual *AND* mental/emotional counseling.

It is ironic that in spite of his considerable efforts to the contrary it is clearly on display here.
His system is addicted to Cortisol and Epinephrine. If he did not have the drama of this thread he would feel at a loss. This is why he has been so virulently acerbic in the past. He is like an ill-tempered athlete on steroids.

It is useless to try to gain his approval or seek passport into his life, he will use the opportunity of your trying, to exclude you so that you will seek him. He wants to be in control of the dialogue and of the perception of the situation. It is fear based protectionism because he is afraid of the truth being seen. 

Galatians 4:16-17
have I become your enemy by telling you the truth? … they wish to shut you out so that you will seek them.

He is looking for someone of sterling quality that he can give his allegiance to, that is why he pedestallizes you with “You sir are truly a Christian…and a true worshipper of the true Jesus Christ”

He is idealistically a perfectionist, all the time distrusting normal well-meaning people because they cannot understand him. He truly feels and believes that. He feels like his problems are different, esoteric even.

In the end , his church did him wrong, his wife and her family did him wrong, the people here did him wrong, etc, etc.

Wilderness there are people that you can let see the good the bad and the ugly.

You are missing valuable help that The Father wants you to have because you feel isolated and in a different reality. Its not normal, if the Apostle Paul were standing next to you he would assure you that you need to trust more and not be afraid to discover that your view of reality is a bit warped. 

That would be a good start to deliverance.

I think I will make this my last post but hey I wish you well, take care!


----------



## turnera

Wow! Impressed!


----------



## turnera

Decorum said:


> He is idealistically a perfectionist, all the time distrusting normal well-meaning people because they cannot understand him. He truly feels and believes and that. He feels like his problems are different, esoteric even.
> 
> You are missing valuable help that The Father wants you to have because you feel isolated and in a different reality. Its not normal


Wow.

I have lost count of the times I have told my husband, in a moment of despair, "You're not normal." Or "what you're doing is not normal." Or "normal people don't do what you're doing."

Mindfreak going on right now.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Geez, I unsubbed from this thread, I cannot believe ANYONE is still here posting trying to argue/reason with Wilderness. I also cannot believe he is still here arguing back with everyone, especially with so many female posters since he hates women. I mean if I thought everyone posting in a thread of mine was outrageous and the enemy, I would close my thread. I had to take a look at this trainwreck when I saw how many posts there were. If you stop feeding it, it will eventually go away.


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> Wow.
> 
> I have lost count of the times I have told my husband, in a moment of despair, "You're not normal." Or "what you're doing is not normal." Or "normal people don't do what you're doing."
> 
> Mindfreak going on right now.


It is not normal for a man to be falsely imprisoned. And it is disgusting that you choose to mock me for being abused.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> Wow! Impressed!


I am not. UU just blatantly and overtly falsely accused an innocent victim of physical abuse and false imprisonment of violence, and this is what he writes? But of course being falsely imprisoned is not a unique experience at all, right Decorum?. No, ma'am, Decorum doesnt impress me one bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

3Xnocharm said:


> Geez, I unsubbed from this thread, I cannot believe ANYONE is still here posting trying to argue/reason with Wilderness. I also cannot believe he is still here arguing back with everyone, especially with so many female posters since he hates women. I mean if I thought everyone posting in a thread of mine was outrageous and the enemy, I would close my thread. I had to take a look at this trainwreck when I saw how many posts there were. If you stop feeding it, it will eventually go away.


I do not hate women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> Maybe the Paranoia and Delusions were brought on by the fasting
> 
> Are you still fasting?


I should just suck it up after being falsely imprisoned, having my child harmed, being falsely accused, and having my family abused, huh? To do otherwise would be paranoid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> It is not normal for a man to be falsely imprisoned. And it is disgusting that you choose to mock me for being abused.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again, ad nauseum, I am NOT mocking you. I'm trying to help you. Unforunately, you are so wrapped up in your protection cocoon that you see everything that is not an ego stroke as an attack. 

I feel sorry for you. 

I feel bad that you have devolved SO badly that you are now in a whirlpool, a deathpool, of self-destruction. And all you can see is how people are not 'on your side.'

Some day, I hope you'll be able to find this again and read it in a clear mind, and see what we were trying to do to help you.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> I should just suck it up after being falsely imprisoned, having my child harmed, being falsely accused, and having my family abused, huh? To do otherwise would be paranoid.


To be GOD-like would be to turn the other cheek and to seek a solution that involves and solves everyone. If you were a true Christian.


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> Again, ad nauseum, I am NOT mocking you. I'm trying to help you. Unforunately, you are so wrapped up in your protection cocoon that you see everything that is not an ego stroke as an attack.
> 
> I feel sorry for you.
> 
> I feel bad that you have devolved SO badly that you are now in a whirlpool, a deathpool, of self-destruction. And all you can see is how people are not 'on your side.'
> 
> Some day, I hope you'll be able to find this again and read it in a clear mind, and see what we were trying to do to help you.


Your words say other than you claim. You say that you are trying to help me, then you make jokes that seem from where I sit to be mean spirited and belittling (not to mention totally inapproriate given the seriousness of the situation). You say you are trying to help me, then you repeatedly accuse me of doing things I havent done. As to my path of self destruction, why would you say that? I just caught the break I needed today. There is an investigation underway into my ex and her mother's abuse of the legal system. How is this not a good thing? The truth is about to be heard at long last.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

turnera said:


> To be GOD-like would be to turn the other cheek and to seek a solution that involves and solves everyone. If you were a true Christian.


Is falsely accusing me of violence as UU did being God like? Do you have any idea how hurtful that type of accusation is? Not even my ex did that. She did allege that I verbally assaulted her but never stooped so low to accuse me of violence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> Nonsense. She doesn't have a shred of evidence. Not one shred.


Wilderness, we will see how your investigation goes, and I wish you the best. But the fact that she keeps winning against you when people look at both sides of your story suggests to me she has a better case than you do.

The way you have attacked poster after poster on your thread for taking what seem to be reasonable positions also suggests to me your case may be weak. I haven't seen a single person won over by your arguments on this thread. Not one. Does that suggest you may be arguing your case wrongly?

I have to wonder if the way you have treated your ex is like how you have treated people on this thread. Because you have thrown a lot of accusations that seem to me to be absurd, and unfair, to people who were trying to help you. I'm not condoning abuse or false imprisonment, but I am not convinced they occurred. The more you attack others, the less convinced I become.

Meantime I note your silence on the original point of this thread, no contact with another man's wife who you fvcked. I would like to know whether you are maintaining NC. Silence possibly suggest that you are not. So, what news there?


----------



## Zanne

At this point, I wouldn't mind returning to the original point of this thread either! I think Wilderness still needs continued support and advice regarding that matter.

Keep in mind that the drama with his ex is a current event and a daily source of friction and stress for him.

Also, Wilderness has asked for our continued support and prayers regarding the new developments in his case.

I think there has been good counsel in this thread, but I can see why his frustration was rising last night because the advice was often peppered with sly remarks which served no purpose.

Some may feel he deserved it based on his past treatment of others. I hope he will be able to read some of the advice with fresh eyes another time. He is understandably hypersensitive to being mocked and there was plenty of that going around here.

Like most of us, Wilderness was probable fortunate enough to grow up and live in a country where liberties are often taken for granted. What happened to him likely shook his foundation and maybe he even suffers PTSD because of the ordeal.

I have to agree that some of the offers to help were less than sincere. I truly hope he can sort through this mess and find some level of support. That is, after all, the point of this forum.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> Wilderness, we will see how your investigation goes, and I wish you the best. But the fact that she keeps winning against you when people look at both sides of your story suggests to me she has a better case than you do.
> 
> The way you have attacked poster after poster on your thread for taking what seem to be reasonable positions also suggests to me your case may be weak. I haven't seen a single person won over by your arguments on this thread. Not one. Does that suggest you may be arguing your case wrongly?
> 
> I have to wonder if the way you have treated your ex is like how you have treated people on this thread. Because you have thrown a lot of accusations that seem to me to be absurd, and unfair, to people who were trying to help you. I'm not condoning abuse or false imprisonment, but I am not convinced they occurred. The more you attack others, the less convinced I become.
> 
> ?



I cant believe how clueless you are. My ex wife is a female in the state of Massachusetts with physical custody of my daughter. That fact alone means she 'wins' in probate court even if I 'win'. Possession is 9/10th of the law, as they say. It has ZERO to do with who has the best 'case '. As to the criminal allegations, if the police and court are willing to prosecute a man for an argument 'aka verbal assault ' with no witnesses or evidence of any kind, a story that changed 3x, and an accuser with a custody case in which she is actively seeking leverage, how is that justice by ANY standard?


As to my 'attacks' on other members : if you truly cared about attacks you would be calling UU on the carpet for blatantly falsely accusing me of violence. There is plenty more reviling from plenty of members other than UU on plenty of other posts as well.

You have revealed yourself to me. As to the situation with my ex girlfriend I would not discuss that with you as I now have zero trust I'm you.

Good day, sir.


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## Wazza

wilderness said:


> I cant believe how clueless you are. My ex wife is a female in the state of Massachusetts with physical custody of my daughter. That fact alone means she 'wins' in probate court even if I 'win'. Possession is 9/10th of the law, as they say. It has ZERO to do with who has the best 'case '. As to the criminal allegations, if the police and court are willing to prosecute a man for an argument 'aka verbal assault ' with no witnesses or evidence of any kind, a story that changed 3x, and an accuser with a custody case in which she is actively seeking leverage, how is that justice by ANY standard?
> 
> 
> As to my 'attacks' on other members : if you truly cared about attacks you would be calling UU on the carpet for blatantly falsely accusing me of violence. There is plenty more reviling from plenty of members other than UU on plenty of other posts as well.
> 
> You have revealed yourself to me. As to the situation with my ex girlfriend I would not discuss that with you as I now have zero trust I'm you.
> 
> Good day, sir.


Calm down Wilderness.

1. There is a lot more to this than custody of your daughter. You have talked about other consequences. EG being thrown in jail. Did that happen because she has custody of the child? 

2. Again you are giving YOUR side. I don't even have your side in total, and I am assuming there is another side. So should any self-respecting judge, policeman, or whatever. 

3. Attacks on other members. I am trying to help you with ways to win an argument. My point was that your current approach is not working.

4. You came asking for help about your married lover. You no longer want help, fair enough.


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## Fenris

Maricha75 said:


> Wait, so now *I* hate men? Really??? Wow....


You do? Wow, I feel sorry for your husband then...


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## Maricha75

Fenris said:


> You do? Wow, I feel sorry for your husband then...


And my two sons. I'm a wretched mother. I make them do... *gasp*.... CHORES! How dare I make them do women's work!


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## Fenris

Maricha75 said:


> And my two sons. I'm a wretched mother. I make them do... *gasp*.... CHORES! How dare I make them do women's work!


No!!! Not the... WOMEN'S work!!!

Egads! Quickly, someone get their man cards returned, perhaps that will save them!


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## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> Is falsely accusing me of violence as UU did being God like? Do you have any idea how hurtful that type of accusation is? Not even my ex did that. She did allege that I verbally assaulted her but never stooped so low to accuse me of violence.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


1st - I never claimed to be anything close to God like.

2nd - I never accused you of violence. You are deluded and paranoid and an attention seeker. That is all you really want - is the feeding of your narcissistic monster ego.

3rd - the sentence "As the illness progressed, his delusions took over and he had violent outbursts" was not written by me, but by the Miriam Webster dictionary people.
BUT - you have certainly illustrated it well here in your sad, pathetic thread of delusion and paranoia.

4th - How about that married other woman you had sex with and wanted to figure out a way for it to be ok with god so you could fvck her again and remain 1000% behind her? (lol, I won't go into any scripture siting how wrong THAT is according to the Bible) Still no contact?

5th - You mentioned your Mother being a mental health "professional", I bet she would be a good source to find a Psychiatrist that could help you cope with your delusions and paranoia.

6th - Look up the definition of IN and ON - they are not interchangeable.

7th - Have a Happy Deluded Wednesday.

8th - There, I have started today's feed for your voracious narcissistic appetite


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## Fenris

I think this thread has officially...


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## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> I cant believe how clueless you are. My ex wife is a female in the state of Massachusetts with physical custody of my daughter. That fact alone means she 'wins' in probate court even if I 'win'. Possession is 9/10th of the law, as they say. It has ZERO to do with who has the best 'case '. As to the criminal allegations, if the police and court are willing to prosecute a man for an argument 'aka verbal assault ' with no witnesses or evidence of any kind, a story that changed 3x, and an accuser with a custody case in which she is actively seeking leverage, how is that justice by ANY standard?
> 
> 
> *As to my 'attacks' on other members : if you truly cared about attacks you would be calling UU on the carpet for blatantly falsely accusing me of violence. There is plenty more reviling from plenty of members other than UU on plenty of other posts as well.
> 
> You have revealed yourself to me. As to the situation with my ex girlfriend I would not discuss that with you as I now have zero trust I'm you.*
> Good day, sir.


Never falsely accused you of violence. You are so deluded that you can't follow simple definitions from the dictionary. It is all about you, though.

I agree with you, I have zero trust you are Wazza either.


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## Unique Username

Fenris said:


> I think this thread has officially...


Days and Days ago


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## wilderness

Wazza said:


> Calm down Wilderness.
> 
> 1. There is a lot more to this than custody of your daughter. You have talked about other consequences. EG being thrown in jail. Did that happen because she has custody of the child?
> 
> 2. Again you are giving YOUR side. I don't even have your side in total, and I am assuming there is another side. So should any self-respecting judge, policeman, or whatever.
> 
> 3. Attacks on other members. I am trying to help you with ways to win an argument. My point was that your current approach is not working.
> 
> 4. You came asking for help about your married lover. You no longer want help, fair enough.


1. When a battered woman comes to this forum looking for help, do you tell her that you don't believe her story, that no one does in fact, and that there are 2 sides to every story and you haven't heard the wife beaters side yet? If not, why are you doing it with me?. 2. Why are attacks from other member towards me ok with you?.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

You told Zanne that you didn't believe her husband was abusing her. Remember?


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## Unique Username

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by wilderness View Post
> Is falsely accusing me of violence as UU did being God like? Do you have any idea how hurtful that type of accusation is? Not even my ex did that. She did allege that I verbally assaulted her but never stooped so low to accuse me of violence.
> Posted via Mobile Device





Unique Username said:


> 1st - I never claimed to be anything close to God like.
> 
> 2nd - I never accused you of violence. You are deluded and paranoid and an attention seeker. That is all you really want - is the feeding of your narcissistic monster ego.
> 
> 3rd - the sentence "As the illness progressed, his delusions took over and he had violent outbursts" was not written by me, but by the Miriam Webster dictionary people.
> BUT - you have certainly illustrated it well here in your sad, pathetic thread of delusion and paranoia.
> 
> 4th - How about that married other woman you had sex with and wanted to figure out a way for it to be ok with god so you could fvck her again and remain 1000% behind her? (lol, I won't go into any scripture siting how wrong THAT is according to the Bible) Still no contact?
> 
> 5th - You mentioned your Mother being a mental health "professional", I bet she would be a good source to find a Psychiatrist that could help you cope with your delusions and paranoia.
> 
> 6th - Look up the definition of IN and ON - they are not interchangeable.
> 
> 7th - Have a Happy Deluded Wednesday.
> 
> 8th - There, I have started today's feed for your voracious narcissistic appetite


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## Unique Username

Unique Username said:


> para·noia noun \ˌper-ə-ˈnȯi-ə, ˌpa-rə-\
> medical : a serious mental illness that causes you to falsely believe that other people are trying to harm you
> 
> : an unreasonable feeling that people are trying to harm you, do not like you, etc.
> 
> Full Definition of PARANOIA
> 
> 1
> : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
> 2
> : a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others
> — para·noi·ac also para·noic adjective or noun
> — para·noi·cal·ly adverb
> 
> Medical Definition of PARANOIA
> 
> 1
> : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
> 2
> : a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others
> 
> Paranoia - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


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## lifeistooshort

I've had a change of heart. I've always thought wilderness was just an angry, misogynist pos, but after seeing the increasing paranoia here and how nobody gets it, the whole world is against him and if you suggest he may have some responsibility you're a horrible person that can p!ss off I think he's simply mentally ill and needs to be treated like a mentally ill 5 year old. That's clearly his mentality.....

His ex wife and her lawyer need only give him the noose and ask a few pointed questions in court and he'll get p!ssed off and hang himself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> 3rd - the sentence "As the illness progressed, his delusions took over and he had violent outbursts" was not written by me, but by the Miriam Webster dictionary people.
> BUT - you have certainly illustrated it well here in your sad, pathetic thread of delusion and paranoia.
> 5th - You mentioned your Mother being a mental health "professional", I bet she would be a good source to find a Psychiatrist that could help you cope with your delusions and paranoia.
> 
> 6th - Look up the definition of IN and ON - they are not interchangeable.
> 
> 8th - There, I have started today's feed for your voracious narcissistic appetite



But I'm the one attacking people, right Wazza?


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## ReformedHubby

wilderness said:


> 1. When a battered woman comes to this forum looking for help, do you tell her that you don't believe her story, that no one does in fact, and that there are 2 sides to every story and you haven't heard the wife beaters side yet? If not, why are you doing it with me?. 2. Why are attacks from other member towards me ok with you?.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If a women that was claiming she was being battered had a posting history as checkered as yours she would be treated the same. YOU are the cause of the people doubting you. The perception we have of you is based on what you posted. I wasn't just taking pot shots at you when I said you had a credibility problem on here. I was being honest.


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## wilderness

lifeistooshort said:


> I've had a change of heart. I've always thought wilderness was just an angry, misogynist pos, but after seeing the increasing paranoia here and how nobody gets it, the whole world is against him and if you suggest he may have some responsibility you're a horrible person that can p!ss off I think he's simply mentally ill and needs to be treated like a mentally ill 5 year old. That's clearly his mentality.....
> 
> His ex wife and her lawyer need only give him the noose and ask a few pointed questions in court and he'll get p!ssed off and hang himself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But I'm the one attacking people, right Wazza?


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## Unique Username

I found a new T-shirt for you Wilderness


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## wilderness

ReformedHubby said:


> If a women that was claiming she was being battered had a posting history as checkered as yours she would be treated the same. YOU are the cause of the people doubting you. The perception we have of you is based on what you posted. I wasn't just taking pot shots at you when I said you had a credibility problem on here. I was being honest.


Here is why your post doesn't work : the last few pages of this thread consist of some of the most mean spirited personal attacks that I have ever seen on any forum towards anyone. If you truly had a problem with 'checkered posts ' you would be railing against Blonde, UU, and Turnera.
Instead, you are just piling on.


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## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> 1. When a battered woman comes to this forum looking for help, do you tell her that you don't believe her story, that no one does in fact, and that there are 2 sides to every story and you haven't heard the wife beaters side yet? If not, why are you doing it with me?. 2. Why are attacks from other member towards me ok with you?.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You CAME to this forum and started this thread seeking assistance on how to be right with god and still be able to fvuck your MARRIED ex-girlfriend.

So - how's that going for you? Still NC with her?

Did your fasting help? Did you disclose everything to the Church men you said were going to help hold you accountable?


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## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> I found a new T-shirt for you Wilderness


But I'm the one attacking people, right Wazza?


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## Unique Username

And., I still haven't attacked you Wilderness.

Just called out your delusions and paranoia...the inconsistencies in your posting and thought patterns. 

Seek help from a mental health professional.


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## lifeistooshort

wilderness said:


> But I'm the one attacking people, right Wazza?



Nope, just suggesting you get some help. In fact, I now realize that a lot of things I said weren't fair because it's clear you have mental issues so I take everything back.
I never attack the mentally ill, it's not their fault.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> You CAME to this forum and started this thread seeking assistance on how to be right with god and still be able to fvuck your MARRIED ex-girlfriend.
> 
> So - how's that going for you? Still NC with her?
> 
> Did your fasting help? Did you disclose everything to the Church men you said were going to help hold you accountable?


But I'm the one attacking people, right Wazza.


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## pidge70

> if that is the way you treat your Christian brethren, I'd hate to see how u treat your enemies.


Quote from you to Zanne. Applies here as well.



> I don't believe Zanne's husband is an abuser, but I do believe that Zanne is an abuser. The 'abuse card' is the trump card that nearly every single unrepentant WS plays. I believe that Zanne is fooling most of this forum.


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## wilderness

lifeistooshort said:


> Nope, just suggesting you get some help. In fact, I now realize that a lot of things I said weren't fair because it's clear you have mental issues so I take everything back.
> I never attack the mentally ill, it's not their fault.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But I'm the one attacking people, right Wazza.


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## favoritemistake

I don't post much on TAM but I am posting just to say that while I get the frustration on everyone's part, I do believe that Wilderness has some very serious mental health issues and shouldn't be poked and ridiculed. Some posters, who I respect very much and who have obvioulsy tried to help Wilderness, have now stooped to ridiculing a man who appears to need a lot of help, help that won't be found on an Internet message board. I worry that poking and provoking him will only lead to more instability for him and may push him towards violence. 

So, I only ask that everyone take a step back and realize that no one here is helping Wilderness because he just doesn't see it and never will. He needs real life help.


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## Unique Username

I think you just like typing the username Wazza

I like it too, the Z's are so much fun


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## pidge70

wilderness said:


> But I'm the one attacking people, tight Wazza.


That's not an attack. It's an observation.


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## wilderness

pidge70 said:


> Quote from you to Zanne. Applies here as well.


Apples to oranges. Zanne was claiming her husband was yelling at her and such, I was physically abused and falsely imprisoned. My family is also the victim of abuse.


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## wilderness

favoritemistake said:


> I don't post much on TAM but I am posting just to say that while I get the frustration on everyone's part, I do believe that Wilderness has some very serious mental health issues and shouldn't be poked and ridiculed. Some posters, who I respect very much and who have obvioulsy tried to help Wilderness, have now stooped to ridiculing a man who appears to need a lot of help, help that won't be found on an Internet message board. I worry that poking and provoking him will only lead to more instability for him and may push him towards violence.
> 
> So, I only ask that everyone take a step back and realize that no one here is helping Wilderness because he just doesn't see it and never will. He needs real life help.


But I'm the one attacking people, right Wazza?


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## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> (EDIT TO ADD: I AM NOT MARRIED. I AM DIVORCED.)
> 
> 
> My critics are going to have a field day with this one. And rightly so. If there are Christians that are listening, please give me some feedback and make it as harsh as you want.
> 
> So…prior to getting together with my wife, I was involved in a very intense 5 year relationship with the woman that at the time I thought would become my wife. To make a very long story short, there were huge mistakes made by both of us during the relationship. The relationship ended very, very badly. She left me for the man she married. I said horrible things as a result. I did horrible things as a result. That relationship has been up until this time a wound that never healed on my soul. I was the bad boy, he was the stable guy, and she married the stable guy and dumped the bad boy. That was 7 years ago.
> 
> A few days ago she contacted me out of the blue. I was standoffish at first, cynical. I thought maybe her husband stepped out on her and she was going to use me to get back at him. I wasn't really going along with it. But she told me she had something to tell me. She told me she made a mistake, that she never should have gotten married. That she was never attracted to her husband, that she couldn't sleep the day that she got engaged. That she wanted a divorce. She said she had been watching me all this time, that she cried when she found out I was getting married. Cried when she found out about my child. She said she wanted a divorce either way, but asked if I would have her in the future.
> 
> The emotion that I felt when I heard this overwhelmed me. I had previously thought that I had meant nothing to her. And I gave in to temptation and had sex with her. She says she wants to divorce either way, but that she wants a future with me.
> 
> Is there anyway this could be made right in God's eyes? I feel horrible about harming an innocent man and child. I know I shouldn't have had sex with her. But I still love her, more than ever.
> 
> Feedback?


And here is the reason you CLAIMED to start this thread.

Wilderness - you need professional help with distinguishing reality from delusion.

No less than a dozen (actually more) people (including myself) have offered you sane, logical advice for everything...every little twist and turn you have taken in your roller coaster thread.


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## pidge70

wilderness said:


> Apples to oranges. Zanne was claiming her husband was yelling at her and such, I was physically abused and falsely imprisoned. My family is also the victim of abuse.


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## Unique Username

Perhaps it is time for the Mods to lock your thread.

There is really nothing more that we can do to help you wilderness.

You are going in circles.


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## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> And here is the reason you CLAIMED to start this thread.
> 
> Wilderness - you need professional help with distinguishing reality from delusion.
> 
> No less than a dozen (actually more) people (including myself) have offered you sane, logical advice for everything...every little twist and turn you have taken in your roller coaster thread.


Calling me delusional is sane, logical advice huh? Ill pass, thank you.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> Your words say other than you claim. You say that you are trying to help me, then you make jokes *that seem from where I sit *to be mean spirited and belittling (not to mention totally inapproriate given the seriousness of the situation). You say you are trying to help me, then you repeatedly accuse me of doing things I havent done. As to my path of self destruction, why would you say that? I just caught the break I needed today. There is an investigation underway into my ex and her mother's abuse of the legal system. How is this not a good thing? The truth is about to be heard at long last.


First, us questioning you is precisely BECAUSE things 'seem' different to you. Think about it. Out of, say, 50 people responding to you, all but one has told you the same thing - you are not reacting in a healthy manner. I have said repeatedly that you could benefit from looking at your own situation in a new manner precisely BECAUSE all you see is people attacking you, wanting to hurt you, belittling you, and that is not mentally healthy. I've known people like you and they have been told by professionals that assuming everyone is attacking you is something that needs to be addressed because it is not healthy. And the more you go off on us, the more people tell you that you would benefit from seeing a psychologist. Don't you think there may be a reason that so many people think the same thing? As the saying goes, if 99/100 people see a purple cow and 1/100 sees a brown one, it's good odds that the cow is really purple.

Second, what have I accused you of? 

Third, the path of self-destruction has nothing at all to do with the investigation going into your family situation - which we ALL SUPPORT, by the way. It has to do with your personal view of the world, your apparent belief that if we don't support you 100% we are your enemy, and your increasingly agitated state at being unable to sway us to 'your side.' 

Believe me, I want you to be happy. But if that requires you torching everyone along the way, well, how does that (1) help you and (2) result in real happiness? It's a distorted view because you're still walking around believing that everyone else is evil, you're righteous because you found God, and you're going to end up alone. I hope you reach a point where you can stop attacking people long enough to actually ask yourself if what people are saying could be true, so you can find peace.


----------



## wilderness

Unique Username said:


> Perhaps it is time for the Mods to lock your thread.
> 
> There is really nothing more that we can do to help you wilderness.
> 
> You are going in circles.


Calling me delusional is help, huh? No thank you, I pass.


----------



## turnera

wilderness said:


> Is falsely accusing me of violence as UU did being God like? Do you have any idea how hurtful that type of accusation is? Not even my ex did that. She did allege that I verbally assaulted her but never stooped so low to accuse me of violence.


What violence did I accuse you of?


----------



## Unique Username

No, calling you delusional is accurate.

You've racked up 81 pages. 

Maybe go back and start from the beginning and read your issues and the advice given.

Anyway - you'll have to get your ego stroked from someone else for awhile. 
I have other, more important things that need to be accomplished this morning

I hope you get the help you so desperately need from a certified, licensed mental health professional.


AND - I never accused you of violence. Not once.


----------



## pidge70

wilderness said:


> Calling me delusional is sane, logical advice huh? Ill pass, thank you.



You have disregarded any advice from *everyone * posting on this thread. Well, except Zanne. Curious that one.

Do you think new posters will come and try to help you? I ask because I wonder what the point of this thread is now? You have told numerous people to "piss off" and to go away, etc. You don't trust any of us even your "Christian brethren" so, what do you want?


----------



## turnera

Zanne said:


> I think there has been good counsel in this thread, but I can see why his frustration was rising last night because the advice was often peppered with sly remarks which served no purpose.
> 
> Some may feel he deserved it based on his past treatment of others.


If you're referring to me, I am worried for wilderness. I think he has a condition that needs looked at by professionals. Most people in such situations rarely see that for themselves. I have tried to be logical so he could see the logic in seeing things from another viewpoint. He ain't havin' it. Fine. But I think I was pretty forthright and honest about what I thought, no slyness needed.


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## Unique Username

wilderness said:


> Calling me delusional is help, huh? No thank you, I pass.


Of course you pass. That IS delusion.


----------

