# So who takes the majority of the blame for sex being cut off?



## Cee Paul

So if most guys are horny creatures and it doesn't take much to get us in the mood and into the sack anytime or anywhere, and with a lot of women it takes a ton of foreplay and all the stars & planets being aligned to get them in the mood and ready for sex, then WHO'S fault is it mainly(not all)when the sex is cut off and non-existent for 3 months - 6 months - a year in a marriage or relationship??


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## southern wife

Hard to say for sure.........both sexes "cut off" sex for many different reasons.

Examples: 

Men cut it off because of porn addictions. They prefer porn/masturbation over sex with their wife.

Women cut it off because of resentment issues in the marriage.....or her man doesn't know how to *emotionally* turn her on, so that she also gets physically turned on.


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## joe kidd

People can only treat you the way you let them.


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## Deejo

The other person ...


Basically, the majority of blame tends to fall on the 'Denier' rather than the 'Requestor'.

However when you look under the covers, so to speak, it almost always comes down to what is or isn't going on outside of the bedroom.


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## Cee Paul

Well me personally I really enjoy sex like most men do and had it been MY call, we would have had sex at least 5 or 6 times the past 6 months instead of just.........................once. So for whatever her reasons are I was still willing to look past all the b.s. we're going through to have a little "fun" together, therefore I remove about 75% of the blame off of me in this case.


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## Cee Paul

joe kidd said:


> People can only treat you the way you let them.


I think you'll find that you have NO control over the way people treat you unless they actually _fear_ you, and that is not how I wanna go about things in my marriage. If your wife rejects your advances and says a definite "NO" to the bedroom then that it's - ball game over.


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## Drover

It's on you. Yes, you can' force her to have sex (or at least shouldn't) but getting her to yes is on you.

If she's not going to get to yes on a meaningful basis, then it's up to you to move on in an honorable fashion.


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## Cee Paul

Drover said:


> It's on you. Yes, you can' force her to have sex (or at least shouldn't) but getting her to yes is on you.
> 
> If she's not going to get to yes on a meaningful basis, then it's up to you to move on in an honorable fashion.


If I am the _willing_ party and _willing_ to do things to please her to make it nice for the both of us, but because she is still mad about this or that and is usually not in a horny mood no matter what I try, then that is on...................HER. And if things don't change soon then instead of trying to look elsewhere and become a cheating husband(something I'm strongly against), I will just have to move on and start over again somewhere down the road.


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## joe kidd

Cee Paul said:


> I think you'll find that you have NO control over the way people treat you unless they actually _fear_ you, and that is not how I wanna go about things in my marriage. If your wife rejects your advances and says a definite "NO" to the bedroom then that it's - ball game over.


I think you will find I have plenty of control on how people treat me. You may not...I do. If they treat me badly they are out of my life. Just the way it is. Fear? No. Respect. Yes.


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## Cee Paul

joe kidd said:


> I think you will find I have plenty of control on how people treat me. You may not...I do. If they treat me badly they are out of my life. Just the way it is. Fear? No. Respect. Yes.


Most people who treat me well is because I also treat them well, and those who don't I usually ask them to get away from me or I simply threaten to beat the hell out of them, and I'm not a small guy(6'3 and 240lbs)so that usually works 99% of the time. But with my wife I cannot do any of those things but I am rude right back to her and have cursed her out several times when she's treating me like crap, but if it all continues on then I will be forced to leave and hopefully find a better situation somewhere down the road.


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## joe kidd

Cee Paul said:


> Most people who treat me well is because I also treat them well, and those who don't I usually ask them to get away from me or I simply threaten to beat the hell out of them, and I'm not a small guy(6'3 and 240lbs)so that usually works 99% of the time. But with my wife I cannot do any of those things but I am rude right back to her and have cursed her out several times when she's treating me like crap, but if it all continues on then I will be forced to leave and hopefully find a better situation somewhere down the road.


I hope it works out for you man.


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## engneer319

Women and men are very different when it comes to sex I think. 

Men have a very strong emotional need for sex. When we don't get it, it affects or mood and our emotional well being.

In a healthy marriage a woman understands this and wants to take care of her mans needs and will actually get pleasure out of providing for his needs.

However, when a woman is not getting her needs met, things change and suddenly she will feel like, "all he wants is sex". 

A woman needs to feel safe, loved and important to her man. If you aren't providing for her needs, then she won't want to provide for your needs.

If your woman isn't taking care of you in the sack, look in the mirror.


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## okeydokie

southern wife said:


> Hard to say for sure.........both sexes "cut off" sex for many different reasons.
> 
> Examples:
> 
> Men cut it off because of porn addictions. They prefer porn/masturbation over sex with their wife.
> 
> Women cut it off because of resentment issues in the marriage.....or her man doesn't know how to *emotionally* turn her on, so that she also gets physically turned on.


those are both the fault of the same person, at least the way you describe them.


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## Caribbean Man

I think the average man does not refuse sex.
Even when things are bad in the marriage,even if it's a 
" soul less handjob", they want sexual relief.

Sometimes if a woman's needs are not being met she will still accede to her husband's request for sex.
However,if her needs are continually not being met,resentment builds, and she shuts off emotionally , and then she witholds sex or it becomes sporadic.
The majority of times its the woman,
And she is justifed IMO.


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## 40isthenew20

a guy can be in the middle of an argument with his wife, be ready to either throw her out of the window or pack a bag and leave...and will do a complete 180 if she said, "Wouldn't you rather bang than fight?" 

Now picture that with the roles reversed? How many wives out there would jump in the sack?


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## SeptemberBlue

from my experience, i feel like my husband is emotionally absent most of the time, and he keeps himself busy with his hobbies, i.e. music and the internet. we are best friends, but i feel he is emotionally disconnected from me. he rarely tells me he loves me and i feel like sometimes he is forcing himself to seem compassionate if the rare instance arrises. but then it seems once a year we have a huge fight over ME not wanting sex. so i get 100% of the blame. 

since he has been taking anti-depressants, it has been even more of an emotional chasm and now compounding the emotional issue he has a problem keeping an erection… so the deed never really gets done, just unfulfilling all the way around now. i ask him to see the doc about this, but he never follows through. men are lucky, they just pop a pill to help, no pill will ever help a woman because there has to be a connection that is nurtured in between the sex. he doesn't get that at all, he thinks i just don't want him anymore, and well, i guess the longer this goes on, i guess he is onto something. before we were married it was sex every time we saw each other. that went on for two years, solid. and then marriage, everything changed, for both of us. i wish we just stayed single and together.


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## MEM2020

This is the almost universal reponse from folks who have difficulty with conflict. 

Someone says you need to be... Some flavor of assertive... 

And you respond with: I am not going to do X, where x is some uber aggressive response. You are basically caricaturing the idea of being assertive. 

I don't know what your experience is, but in my world I share the house with a partner who has sharper teeth, and longer claws, exceptional reflexes and tremendous endurance. Damn right I have a healthy fear of her. 

And the couple times I have let her lose her healthy fear of me, my quality of life began to rapidly degrade.


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## waiwera

Unless there is abuse (OR COMMUNICATION PROBLEMS) of any kind...the one saying "no" is to blame.

If there are issues within the marriage it is the responsibility of the affected spouse to bring it up for discussion and resolution.

To cut off sex (and with it usually affection) is cruel and damaging to a marriage...especially when the other spouse doesn't even know why the sex has been cut off.


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## CanadianGuy

I think I'm at the point where I just do not care who's fault it is. I have spent an awful lot of time thinking, asking, talking, acting, and working etc., on it that I just felt it was time to let it go and do other things. I do not initiate nearly as much as I used to. When I find myself thinking about it I go and do other things to get my mind off it. She told me my HD was "my problem" and she doesn't have a problem. I just don't give a sh*t anymore. And perhaps this is one of the ways a marriage ends. So be it.


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## waiwera

I'm so sorry to hear this CanadianGuy... does your wife know you feel this is a deal breaker. Does she REALLY know that her lack of affection/sex is going cause the marriage to end?

I know i couldn't live in a marriage without loves and cuddles and regular sex. Not unless there was a good (medical) reason.

How sad for it to come to this... over being loving and affection to your spouse!


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## *LittleDeer*

Cee Paul said:


> Most people who treat me well is because I also treat them well, and those who don't I usually ask them to get away from me or I simply threaten to beat the hell out of them, and I'm not a small guy(6'3 and 240lbs)so that usually works 99% of the time. But with my wife I cannot do any of those things but I am rude right back to her and have cursed her out several times when she's treating me like crap, but if it all continues on then I will be forced to leave and hopefully find a better situation somewhere down the road.


You won't find a better situation untill you learn to handle women without losing your cool and find a good balance between a hole and door mat. You losing your temper and cursing her out makes you even less attractive I'm afraid.


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## AgentD

Deejo said:


> However when you look under the covers, so to speak, it almost always comes down to what is or isn't going on outside of the bedroom.


I agree with this. It has sure been the case for me and my husband. I think a lot of men (and some women) can actually put aside their anger, or hurt long enough to have sex. Some can not. For a lot of women too, if the emotional part is gone, then the physical part will likely be followed. I also think that just one person isn't to blame, but both more than likely play a role.


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## Caribbean Man

Cee Paul said:


> Most people who treat me well is because I also treat them well, and those who don't I usually ask them to get away from me or I simply threaten to beat the hell out of them, *and I'm not a small guy(6'3 and 240lbs)so that usually works 99% of the time. *But with my wife I cannot do any of those things but I am rude right back to her and have cursed her out several times when she's treating me like crap, but if it all continues on then I will be forced to leave and hopefully find a better situation somewhere down the road.


I am not hijacking your thread,just asking if you lift iron also...
Judging by your stats.

But I think both of you have become part of that vicious cycle of war.
When all you do is fight and you forgot who or what actually started the fight.


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## [email protected]

Cee Paul- it could be one or both to blame depends on where the cut off in sex came from. It does sound like your wife is the reason here but whats not clear is why. Has she always been this stand offish about sex? If so you knew her ways before you married her now you made the bed so you gotta lie in it. (sadly only sleeping) sorry sometimes a joke can lighten the mood.

But if this non existant sex has come about recently then you gotta get to the bottom of it. If you love her and want to make it work you gotta talk, you gotta find out why she is not interested in sex any more. You definitely gotta prepare yourself for what you might hear though.

You sound like a good husband who is trying to do the right thing and your right cheating is not the answer. Let her know what you feel, if you cant get a loving active sex life going with her the woman you married then you are going to leave the relationship maybe she needs to see just how serious it has become. Maybe that will make her realize if she wants to keep you she is gonna have to give up some of the cookie (Pardon my terminology) 

Wish you well......


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## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> Well me personally I really enjoy sex like most men do and had it been MY call, we would have had sex at least 5 or 6 times the past 6 months instead of just.........................once. So for whatever her reasons are I was still willing to look past all the b.s. we're going through to have a little "fun" together, therefore I remove about 75% of the blame off of me in this case.


What ARE her reasons? And how many books have you read about how to maintain a good marriage?


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## MYM1430

In my marriage, sex has not been cut off but I have stopped initiating. The last few years it would only happen if she had a couple drinks or was ovulating. 

The last time we tried I got soft and came with no orgasm after less than a minute. We don't fight or argue. We hold hands and cuddle. We only have eyes for each other. But we have the sex life of people twice our age. 

I know that I am to blame for this: I have worked in the same dead end job for most of the last twelve years and do not make enough to support our family.


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## Cherry

*LittleDeer* said:


> You won't find a better situation untill you learn to handle women without losing your cool and find a good balance between a hole and door mat. You losing your temper and cursing her out makes you even less attractive I'm afraid.


I was thinking the same thing. My H has cursed at me in the past, unprovoked or during disagreements that could be calmly discussed. He is stronger and bigger than me and when he curses at me.. its even more intimidating and he is anything but desirable for several days after. 

Cee Paul - have you and your wife worked on your communication without it escalating to a cursing match? I find that if communication is off in our home.. a lot of things suffer


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## turnera

No woman will want SF with a man who makes her feel unsafe, unloved, or unappreciated.


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## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> but I am rude right back to her and have cursed her out several times when she's treating me like crap


Wow. Great choice.

Not.


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## turnera

Cherry said:


> when he curses at me.. its even more intimidating and he is anything but desirable for several days after.


One thing my H knows for sure - and I don't usually ever turn down my husband - if he gets out of bounds and attacks me in some way (verbal, yelling, etc.), leaving me feeling bad...he's got at least a FEW days of cold shoulder from me before I can even stand to be in the same room with him. Let alone SF.

Think about your actions and the responses you will get before you do them.


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## YinPrincess

It doesn't take the planets being aligned for me to be available to my husband, he, however is the low drive one for whatever reason. He blames the few instances of my being unhappy with an encounter to deter him, even though I'm nearly always ready to have a good time. (The few times I've gotten upset with him -last night for instance, are because there isn't enough emotional involvement in the act and I wind up feeling used). Despite that, I'd still have sex with him every day if he wanted.. Practice makes perfect! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## C3156

So going back the OP's original question, based on a *very* general poll of the answers, it looks like men take the majority of blame for sex being cut off.

Either:
- We are not meeting our woman's needs
- We are addicted to porn and love to masturbate to much (BS)

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's a catch-22 to be a male.


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## Cherry

C3156 said:


> So going back the OP's original question, based on a *very* general poll of the answers, it looks like men take the majority of blame for sex being cut off.
> 
> Either:
> - We are not meeting our woman's needs
> - We are addicted to porn and love to masturbate to much (BS)
> 
> Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's a catch-22 to be a male.


Actually, the OP further explains that he and his wife have blow ups where he curses at her.. I think before anyone asks who's fault it is, a clearer picture of the dynamics could help determine why someone cuts their spouse off. Getting cursed at would do it for me, so who's fault would that make it? My H or mine, if he has even the remotest idea that cursing shuts me down?


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## CallaLily

Cherry said:


> My H or mine, if he has even the remotest idea that cursing shuts me down?


I dated a guy once who knew all the right things to say to hurt me or make me shut down...and of course it sure didn't make me feel close to him or want to have sex with him...the biggest thing that got me about it was..he knew what bothered me.. did it/said it and then wondered WHY I didn't want to have sex with him. :scratchhead:  Well, gee keep on doing what you doing and see how you get the same result! No Sex!  Apparently he didn't want sex to much, or he would have stopped the behavior that didn't get him any in the first place.


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## C3156

@Cherry: I was going on the original question.



Cee Paul said:


> So if most guys are horny creatures and it doesn't take much to get us in the mood and into the sack anytime or anywhere, and with a lot of women it takes a ton of foreplay and all the stars & planets being aligned to get them in the mood and ready for sex, then WHO'S fault is it mainly(not all)when the sex is cut off and non-existent for 3 months - 6 months - a year in a marriage or relationship??


But you are absolutly correct, the dynamics behind the cut-off are vital to the particular situation. I was just basing off the general responses posted.


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## turnera

C3156 said:


> So going back the OP's original question, based on a *very* general poll of the answers, it looks like men take the majority of blame for sex being cut off.
> 
> Either:
> - We are not meeting our woman's needs
> - We are addicted to porn and love to masturbate to much (BS)
> 
> Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's a catch-22 to be a male.


 I find that the more you educate yourself on what it takes to have a happy marriage, the more you'll likely get. You know, rather than just winging it.


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## CanadianGuy

waiwera said:


> I'm so sorry to hear this CanadianGuy... does your wife know you feel this is a deal breaker. Does she REALLY know that her lack of affection/sex is going cause the marriage to end?
> 
> I know i couldn't live in a marriage without loves and cuddles and regular sex. Not unless there was a good (medical) reason.
> 
> How sad for it to come to this... over being loving and affection to your spouse!


We have talked about it for over 10 years. Ever got to the point where you felt that talking about it didn't change anything so you stopped talking about it because although you got to express how you felt nothing ever changed? That has happened. If I wanted to stay married I had to accept less and less and she does nothing. 

Since joining this forum I realize that this lack of intimacy has effected me profoundly. Self-esteem, apathetic attitude, moody, etc which I attribute to constant rejection not just in the bedroom. At this point she will not go on a 20min walk with me in the evening - which she agreed to do with me over a month ago and has since stopped, last night her excuse/reason was now that school for the kids has started she won't have time. As a side note this was a "talk about it" to have "togetherness" time. Since that agreement she has rejected going with me over 80% of the time. 

I will add here that I have invited her for lunch dates ( 100% rejection over the last 5 years ) I have stopped asking. I offer to buy her lingerie ( 100% rejection over the last 10 times asking ) I stopped offering. To "busy" to return text messages I send her during the day. So I stopped sending them. Whats the point if you never get a reply? 

With all this rejection it is difficult for me to believe that I'm in a marriage with someone who loves me. So who's to blame? 
Which came first the rejection or the moody attitude? Where does the downward spiral end? With me apparently. Although she would claim that all the nice things I do for her is because I want sex. So if that's what she believes I'm doing it for why bother because I'm not getting the sex I want out of it. lol. This is not true, I did it because I believed it made her happy. 

Today when she left for work she asked me If I was going to paint the house today? ( i've been working on that for a week or so when I have time ) Yes I am. But not because I think it would make her happy. I'm now doing it because I know it effects re-sale value of the property. Exit plan.


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## turnera

I'm glad you have an exit plan. You need one.


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## CanadianGuy

turnera said:


> I'm glad you have an exit plan. You need one.


So who's to blame? 
Me because of my moody apathetic jerky horny needy-ness? 

Or her because of the stone cold rejections? ( due of course to my moody apathetic jerky horny needy-ness ) 

Perhaps I need to talk with her about it. lol


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## turnera

Both are to blame for not getting better educated on how to keep a marriage healthy, as soon as the first resentments, lack of communication, and unhealthy return behavior started. Clear as mud?


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## CanadianGuy

turnera said:


> Both are to blame for not getting better educated on how to keep a marriage healthy, as soon as the first resentments, lack of communication, and unhealthy return behavior started. Clear as mud?


Totally. 

But here's the rub. One person, lets say me for the sake of argument, reads all they can, discovers new ways of being, researches marriage/relationships in order to become "better". 

Or her who does nothing because they believe ? ...................

Because they believe it is "my" problem and not "our" problem? 

Why should they work on a problem that isn't theirs? 

Would it be wrong to say that when the relationship is suffering both people need to take an active part in it's healing by validating the others concerns by co-operatively acting to solve or resolve it? 

So if the other person doesn't see a problem how is that going to happen?

When faced with this behavior is it fair to say the other person does not value the "relationship" and at the extreme does not care about the other persons feelings or needs?


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## turnera

See, that's where education comes in. It teaches you how to make shifts in the marriage that benefit BOTH of you so that it is no longer a you vs me but an us. 

If the other person still doesn't get on board, then it behooves the unhappy one to set up some boundaries and consequences. When the consequences get more painful than status quo - and said consequences may include finding yourself getting divorced - then the happy one may decide they aren't truly all that happy.

It really is always all about the boundaries and consequences.


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## turnera

CanadianGuy said:


> Would it be wrong to say that when the relationship is suffering both people need to take an active part in it's healing by validating the others concerns by co-operatively acting to solve or resolve it? So if the other person doesn't see a problem how is that going to happen?


By you MAKING it a problem for them, through the consequences you will put in place for them overstepping your boundaries.

Like in HNHN. If you're meeting all your spouse's ENs, and they're fat and sassy and don't CARE if they are meeting any of yours, it behooves YOU to say so. And to say you won't CONTINUE to meet their ENs indefinitely if they aren't investing in the marriage, i.e. caring about YOU and your happiness.


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## Drover

Cee Paul said:


> If I am the _willing_ party and _willing_ to do things to please her to make it nice for the both of us, but because she is still mad about this or that and is usually not in a horny mood no matter what I try, then that is on...................HER. And if things don't change soon then instead of trying to look elsewhere and become a cheating husband(something I'm strongly against), I will just have to move on and start over again somewhere down the road.


So you've already decided on the answer to your question? Why'd you bother to ask it? Just looking for people to have a pity party with? 

So you're jumping through all her hoops and she still doesn't want sex from you? Imagine that. 

You whine and silk and make sure she knows you resent her behavior, then do nice things for her to try to buy her affection. Very attractive. What wife wouldn't love that?

The only thing you got right is the last part. Sex is part of a marriage. For most of us not getting it is a deal breaker. You have to make that clear to her. No whining. No being defensive. It's simple. Marriage or no marriage. 

She either wants to be your wife and behave like your wife, or she doesn't. But if you want that, you have to behave like her husband, not her b*tch.


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## turnera

Don't mistake doing things to please her with actually pleasing her. Do you know her love languages? Mine is taking care of my home. I couldn't care less about jewelry or perfume. But, while my house falls down around me, he continues to buy me jewelry and perfume. And I continue to be unhappy. (and yes, I've told him ad nauseum)

See, the rub is that HIS LL is cologne and nice clothes. For decades, I'd buy him tools, hoping he'd get off his butt and fix the house. He'd buy me perfume and jewelry. Once I learned about LLs, I stopped buying any tools, started getting him what made HIM happy. And finally, THIS year (after 30+ years and much goading from DD22), he got me a new weedeater for my birthday!


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## Drover

Sounds exactly like me. My wife wouldn't just ask me to do things around the house. She'd hint at them in ways that just irritated me. And I'd resent it and verbally hint at doing them without actually committing to it or ever intending to do them.

I finally learned this was important to her, and just started doing them without her asking. She's happier with me and shows it and honestly it makes me feel good to be taking care of something she cares about.



turnera said:


> Don't mistake doing things to please her with actually pleasing her. Do you know her love languages? Mine is taking care of my home. I couldn't care less about jewelry or perfume. But, while my house falls down around me, he continues to buy me jewelry and perfume. And I continue to be unhappy. (and yes, I've told him ad nauseum)
> 
> See, the rub is that HIS LL is cologne and nice clothes. For decades, I'd buy him tools, hoping he'd get off his butt and fix the house. He'd buy me perfume and jewelry. Once I learned about LLs, I stopped buying any tools, started getting him what made HIM happy. And finally, THIS year (after 30+ years and much goading from DD22), he got me a new weedeater for my birthday!


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## turnera

Drover said:


> Sounds exactly like me. My wife wouldn't just ask me to do things around the house. She'd hint at them in ways that just irritated me. And I'd resent it and verbally hint at doing them without actually committing to it or ever intending to do them.
> 
> I finally learned this was important to her, and just started doing them without her asking. She's happier with me and shows it and honestly it makes me feel good to be taking care of something she cares about.


EXACTLY! My husband fixed a toilet last week in the master bathroom that's been broken for 2 years AND hung the curtain in that bathroom that's been sitting waiting for TEN years (but only after I threatened to try to fix the toilet myself). I was so excited about it, that he got extra special attention from me that night. Cos I was actually happy about him for a change.


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## Mavash.

turnera said:


> See, the rub is that HIS LL is cologne and nice clothes. For decades, I'd buy him tools, hoping he'd get off his butt and fix the house. He'd buy me perfume and jewelry. Once I learned about LLs, I stopped buying any tools, started getting him what made HIM happy.


My husband is a gift guy however I've learned gifts can be loosely translated.

A gift to him is me doing ANYTHING for him that I don't want to do. LOL

AND if I make a point to turn things I want into gift type language he's more apt to do it for me. Win/win.


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## Cee Paul

Sounds like half of the people wanna blame it all on me for getting into shouting and cursing matches with her, but yet clear her of all wrong doings in this situation like some innocent & pure angel. And then you have people like Drover who wanna sit there and call me her "little b*tch" or a doormat, but not really understanding what that really means I guess since I have stood my ground with her since day one. And in my last marriage my ex was a hitter which I am also strongly against, and so it did not take me very long to get the hell out of there once that all started, instead of just folding up in a little fetal position and taking that crap from her!

But in the long run it's just a vicious circle that goes round and round where she's mean to me for whatever reason, then I turn around and I'm mean and nasty right back & say horrible things cause I'm angry, and then in return for that she gives me the cold shoulder and cuts me off sexually as a result. It's like two dogs or cats constantly chasing their tails but never catching them.


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## Pandakiss

Yep. Been there, done that. Early in our relationship something happened and I pulled away. So in return he pulled back. I thought I got over it or else did a good job of hiding it. 

He knew something was wrong and withheld sex. Not every time, but enough. Then I with held bjs. Not every time but a lot. We made one another jump through hoops. 

I knew it wasn't right, but resentment is a mofo. Who's to say what really happened. Did he with hold because we were off emotionally??? Did I with hold because we were off sexually??? Yes and no. 

It just went around and around. The circle got smaller and tighter each time and we had a breaking point. We were never sexless. I would say not even close. But it's funny we both thought the other was very low drive. 

We didn't want to divorce but we couldn't continue this way. We just opened the flood gates. Years of resentments and hurts started coming out. 

It was the worse 2 years of our lives. So now we are in rebuild mode. We yelled, cussed, threw things, said hurtful things (not cruelty but ugly truths) 

I think we have less sex now, but it's better. On the flip side, I think in my heart of hearts, he still with holds. I think he triggers and retreats.


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## AFEH

Pandakiss said:


> Yep. Been there, done that. Early in our relationship something happened and I pulled away. So in return he pulled back. I thought I got over it or else did a good job of hiding it.
> 
> He knew something was wrong and withheld sex. Not every time, but enough. Then I with held bjs. Not every time but a lot. We made one another jump through hoops.
> 
> I knew it wasn't right, but resentment is a mofo. Who's to say what really happened. Did he with hold because we were off emotionally??? Did I with hold because we were off sexually??? Yes and no.
> 
> It just went around and around. The circle got smaller and tighter each time and we had a breaking point. We were never sexless. I would say not even close. But it's funny we both thought the other was very low drive.
> 
> We didn't want to divorce but we couldn't continue this way. We just opened the flood gates. Years of resentments and hurts started coming out.
> 
> It was the worse 2 years of our lives. So now we are in rebuild mode. We yelled, cussed, threw things, said hurtful things (not cruelty but ugly truths)
> 
> I think we have less sex now, but it's better. On the flip side, I think in my heart of hearts, he still with holds. I think he triggers and retreats.


That took a lot of courage. It’s when remorse has to be deep and genuine, apologies truly heartfelt and genuine and forgiveness unconditional. Well I guess the latter may not be true because boundaries need to be clear and effective otherwise bad behaviours may well be repeated.


But how do you get there with the honesty? Even if there’s a will to be totally open and honest its my experience that people can become deluded about the past. They’ve ducked and dived so many issues such that even with the best will in the world they cannot recollect accurately what actually happened.


I hope you have someone coaching and guiding the two of you and helping you along the way, the path you have both chosen. If he is still triggering (it is a form of PTSD) it probably means he feels unsafe and you both still have quite a way to go. If you haven’t already done so you may want to look into personal boundaries and get somebody to help you with your truth and reconciliation process.


----------



## Cosmos

southern wife said:


> Hard to say for sure.........both sexes "cut off" sex for many different reasons.
> 
> Examples:
> 
> Men cut it off because of porn addictions. They prefer porn/masturbation over sex with their wife.
> 
> Women cut it off because of resentment issues in the marriage.....or her man doesn't know how to *emotionally* turn her on, so that she also gets physically turned on.


:iagree:

As in all things, communication is key.


----------



## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> Sounds like half of the people wanna blame it all on me for getting into shouting and cursing matches with her, but yet clear her of all wrong doings in this situation like some innocent & pure angel. And then you have people like Drover who wanna sit there and call me her "little b*tch" or a doormat, but not really understanding what that really means I guess since I have stood my ground with her since day one. And in my last marriage my ex was a hitter which I am also strongly against, and so it did not take me very long to get the hell out of there once that all started, instead of just folding up in a little fetal position and taking that crap from her!
> 
> But in the long run it's just a vicious circle that goes round and round where she's mean to me for whatever reason, then I turn around and I'm mean and nasty right back & say horrible things cause I'm angry, and then in return for that she gives me the cold shoulder and cuts me off sexually as a result. It's like two dogs or cats constantly chasing their tails but never catching them.


Well, I wasn't either one of them, was I? I said it was BOTH of your's fault. And judging from how you write and what you say, it's a fair bet that you were just about impossible to live with. Who would want to be married to what you describe?


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## turnera

Pandakiss said:


> It was the worse 2 years of our lives. So now we are in rebuild mode. We yelled, cussed, threw things, said hurtful things (not cruelty but ugly truths)
> 
> I think we have less sex now, but it's better. On the flip side, I think in my heart of hearts, he still with holds. I think he triggers and retreats.


 Panda, have you two read His Needs Her Needs yet? It would really really improve your marriage, if you follow the premise.


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## Cherry

Cee Paul said:


> But in the long run it's just a vicious circle that goes round and round where she's mean to me for whatever reason, then I turn around and I'm mean and nasty right back & say horrible things cause I'm angry, and then in return for that she gives me the cold shoulder and cuts me off sexually as a result. It's like two dogs or cats constantly chasing their tails but never catching them.


Cee Paul - then stop the cycle. If she starts screaming or yelling at you, or she's mean to you.. calmly tell her you're not interested in the cycle.. that when she's ready to talk calmly, you'll be there... walk away.. don't engage. You know she's gonna give you the cold shoulder if you do, right? Then don't do it. Don't give her a reason to say "no"


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## Cosmos

Cherry said:


> Cee Paul - then stop the cycle. If she starts screaming or yelling at you, or she's mean to you.. calmly tell her you're not interested in the cycle.. that when she's ready to talk calmly, you'll be there... walk away.. don't engage. You know she's gonna give you the cold shoulder if you do, right? Then don't do it. Don't give her a reason to say "no"


The cycle has to be broken, otherwise a close physical relationship will be impossible. When there's bitterness in a relationship, the first thing to go is intimacy, and then it becomes a catch 22. Someone has to be the 'bigger person' and draw a line in the sand by refusing to react to negative / bad behaviour, IMO. It isn't a case of being a doormat, it's a case of erecting healthy boundaries, insisting on healthy communication (using MC if necessary) and refusing to take part in petty squabbles.


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## Drover

I'm don't "want to call" you anything. I don't get some high off calling anyone names. This is your problem. I couldn't care less if you accept advice or not.

But it's not about blame. It's about forgiveness. Yes, it's a vicious cycle and you have to break it. When you yell and curse, you're not standing up to her. That's defensive behavior. It's weak. She wins. And she knows she can't trust you because you're not in control.

You have to be calm and strong. No ranting. No going on and on about why she's wrong. No explaining. No defensiveness. You tell her one time and you walk away. 

When you do that, you're displaying strength and trustworthiness. You're siaplaying confidence in your opinions and in your feelings. It takes time. In the beginning she'll try to bait you back into the old behavior. Don't give in to that.





Cee Paul said:


> Sounds like half of the people wanna blame it all on me for getting into shouting and cursing matches with her, but yet clear her of all wrong doings in this situation like some innocent & pure angel. And then you have people like Drover who wanna sit there and call me her "little b*tch" or a doormat, but not really understanding what that really means I guess since I have stood my ground with her since day one. And in my last marriage my ex was a hitter which I am also strongly against, and so it did not take me very long to get the hell out of there once that all started, instead of just folding up in a little fetal position and taking that crap from her!
> 
> But in the long run it's just a vicious circle that goes round and round where she's mean to me for whatever reason, then I turn around and I'm mean and nasty right back & say horrible things cause I'm angry, and then in return for that she gives me the cold shoulder and cuts me off sexually as a result. It's like two dogs or cats constantly chasing their tails but never catching them.


----------



## Cee Paul

Cherry said:


> Cee Paul - then stop the cycle. If she starts screaming or yelling at you, or she's mean to you.. calmly tell her you're not interested in the cycle.. that when she's ready to talk calmly, you'll be there... walk away.. don't engage. You know she's gonna give you the cold shoulder if you do, right? Then don't do it. Don't give her a reason to say "no"


One factor that people are forgetting is that I have anger management issues that I will probably need medication for or therapy or both, so until that happens I am unable to just flip it on and off like most people are able to(I wish I could). And yes I have tried the whole "remain calm" thing many times, but after she continues on trying to badger me and throws verbal jabs left and right that is when I lose control and fire back. Most people that have known me all of my life or for most of it, know that I am a person who never just starts losing it and saying ugly things without being totally _provoked_ first. So my wife has only known me for 8 of my 46 years, and so I've suggested to her many times to consult with those who have known me all 46 years or most of my life, to see what truely makes me tick. Everytime I have done that with her family and friends I either get accused of being "too nosey" or they're afraid to answer the questions privately, whereas I have given my family and friends the green light to spill the beans on whatever she asks them.

So what we're looking at here is the "provoker/instigator" vs the "angry guy" in this marriage, and we BOTH need help with our issues.


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## AFEH

Cee Paul said:


> One factor that people are forgetting is that I have anger management issues that I will probably need medication for or therapy or both, so until that happens I am unable to just flip it on and off like most people are able to(I wish I could). And yes I have tried the whole "remain calm" thing many times, but after she continues on trying to badger me and throws verbal jabs left and right that is when I lose control and fire back. Most people that have known me all of my life or for most of it, know that I am a person who never just starts losing it and saying ugly things without being totally _provoked_ first. So my wife has only known me for 8 of my 46 years, and so I've suggested to her many times to consult with those who have known me all 46 years or most of my life, to see what truely makes me tick. Everytime I have done that with her family and friends I either get accused of being "too nosey" or they're afraid to answer the questions privately, whereas I have given my family and friends the green light to spill the beans on whatever she asks them.
> 
> So what we're looking at here is the "provoker/instigator" vs the "angry guy" in this marriage, and we BOTH need help with our issues.


Anger normally comes from being hurt. Sometimes when our ego gets hurt it takes less 0.1 for our anger to start rising and it’s at a full crescendo in 0.5 seconds. Did you know that?

Now you may well be with a woman who deliberately antagonises (provokes, annoys, gets your back up, riles) you knowing full well that you will respond with anger. In other words she shet tests you and pushes your buttons so that you go right ahead and get angry. It's a deliberate, planned and thought out action to get you angry. It's called passive aggression.



Your emotions are under the direct control of your wife. How does it feel knowing that? How does it feel to know that any time she likes, anytime she feels like it and for whatever reason she can just push your buttons and get you angry?

Now ask yourself why on earth would your wife who just loves to get you angry actually do anything about it like asking others who know you what makes you tick? She wants to get you angry, she doesn’t want to change that. Some say that females learn to get under another’s skin by the age of four. Think about it for a while.


Now. If you don’t want to be controlled by your wife there’s a few things you can do. First read Awareness: Amazon.co.uk: Anthony De Mello: Books, it’s an Eastern teaching about observer consciousness. By your angry responses to your wife’s shet tests and your posts here it is exceedingly obvious that you are tied right up tight with your ego. The book will help you get away from your ego such that you can see what is really going on. You will be truly amazed what is revealed to you when you observe your wife’s behaviour without your ego responding to it.

Second any man with anger issues has very poor boundaries, so read http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hold-Your-N...4400/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1346613764&sr=8-3. The combination of the two books is terrific,

Third now is the time to learn about your emotions, to become intelligent about them and put them to good use. Emotional Intelligence: Why it Can Matter More Than IQ: Amazon.co.uk: Daniel Goleman: Books.


You don’t need much more than the above books to make lifetime changes to yourself.


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## Cherry

Cee Paul said:


> One factor that people are forgetting is that I have anger management issues that I will probably need medication for or therapy or both, so until that happens I am unable to just flip it on and off like most people are able to(I wish I could). And yes I have tried the whole "remain calm" thing many times, but after she continues on trying to badger me and throws verbal jabs left and right that is when I lose control and fire back. Most people that have known me all of my life or for most of it, know that I am a person who never just starts losing it and saying ugly things without being totally _provoked_ first. So my wife has only known me for 8 of my 46 years, and so I've suggested to her many times to consult with those who have known me all 46 years or most of my life, to see what truely makes me tick. Everytime I have done that with her family and friends I either get accused of being "too nosey" or they're afraid to answer the questions privately, whereas I have given my family and friends the green light to spill the beans on whatever she asks them.
> 
> So what we're looking at here is the "provoker/instigator" vs the "angry guy" in this marriage, and we BOTH need help with our issues.


My H has had anger problems all his life... Has had a temper all his life... It didn't make it acceptable in our marriage, I can tell you that.. and I knew nothing about it before we married.. did your wife know about your anger issues before you married? 

My H was confronted with an ultimatum.. FIX your anger problems or we are done. And no way in he!! I was gonna continue to kiss that mouth all my life or even trust when he tells me he loves me  Of course, I was not without my faults that needed fixin too and he was quick to point that out . That was the merry go round we were on.. I needed to stop drinking and he needed to manage his temper.

I don't know what came first, me fixing me or him fixing him.. But I worried about me and what I could do to make things more pleasant, if it was even possible. So I stopped drinking. His tempers suddenly seemed less tense to me, more manageable.. things became calmer. Was it him who worked on his temper, or was it my lack of alcohol induced over reaction to things? 

Not saying either of you have a drinking problem, but that I worried about what I could do to better my relationship.. if my H hadn't cleaned up his act sometime during my journey to sobriety.. our marriage would've been over. Sometimes that's the end result if you find yourself giving it your 100% all, and you know it, but you're met with someone who just refuses to change.

Just some thoughts.. not sure it toatally relates.. but I think if you know you have an anger problem that needs addressed, that would be your first step..


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## Drover

Cee Paul said:


> So what we're looking at here is the "provoker/instigator" vs the "angry guy" in this marriage, and we BOTH need help with our issues.


Agreed. But the point is that you can't control whether she gets help or not. You can only control your own actions. If you get a handle on your own anger, you will take away her power to provoke you. 

I would say start doing some reading about anger management and get therapy if you can. And for the time being, when she tries to provoke you, don't give in. As I said, state your opinion one time in a calm, strong fashion...then go get in your car and go for a drive before she can provoke you.

If you just can't control your anger then leaving the situation is the only good alternative.


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## Cee Paul

I appreciate all the feedback so far and just for the record - I am not much of a reader and never have been(takes me 6 months to finish a book), but I appreciate all the book suggestions anyway. And secondly the anger issues I speak of are now at a chemical imbalance stage in my brain that will probably require medication & therapy, so to ask me to simply just turn it off or just stop is like asking someone who suffers from depression to just simply "feel happy", or for someone who has severe A.D.D. to just cut it out and pay attention.


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## AFEH

Someone will fix you with a pill or two if that’s what you want. It’s the easy way but its temporary, stop taking the pills back you go to your old ways.

The harder and longer but more permanent and life changing way is to change your way of life and how you think about life. For example if you’re a coffee addict then stop drinking coffee (or whatever with caffeine in it) because that will for sure give you your chemical imbalance and put you on edge, sometimes with a hair trigger temper/anger.

The choice as they say is yours. The pills or changes in lifestyle and how you see life.


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## Drover

Cee Paul said:


> I appreciate all the feedback so far and just for the record - I am not much of a reader and never have been(takes me 6 months to finish a book), but I appreciate all the book suggestions anyway. And secondly the anger issues I speak of are now at a chemical imbalance stage in my brain that will probably require medication & therapy, so to ask me to simply just turn it off or just stop is like asking someone who suffers from depression to just simply "feel happy", or for someone who has severe A.D.D. to just cut it out and pay attention.


Your not a reader? It's not important enough for you to force yourself to read even though you don't like to? Get the books on tape if that's better for you.

If you nee chemical help and therapy, then go do it! I guarantee there are free resources in your area if you can't afford it. But just do it!

There are lots of things you can try, by the way. The Internet is full of self-help anger management products. 

Try The Sedona Method (official site) Self Help Program by Hale Dwoskin


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## Pandakiss

AFEH said:


> That took a lot of courage. It’s when remorse has to be deep and genuine, apologies truly heartfelt and genuine and forgiveness unconditional. Well I guess the latter may not be true because boundaries need to be clear and effective otherwise bad behaviours may well be repeated.
> 
> 
> But how do you get there with the honesty? Even if there’s a will to be totally open and honest its my experience that people can become deluded about the past. They’ve ducked and dived so many issues such that even with the best will in the world they cannot recollect accurately what actually happened.
> 
> 
> I hope you have someone coaching and guiding the two of you and helping you along the way, the path you have both chosen. If he is still triggering (it is a form of PTSD) it probably means he feels unsafe and you both still have quite a way to go. If you haven’t already done so you may want to look into personal boundaries and get somebody to help you with your truth and reconciliation process.



crazy--?? i just wanted the love and sex [feelings] back from when we first started out. i asked why we dont have fun with bjs anymore. we used to play and laugh....

well that started it, although now, i cant recall his words....maybe something like, you [talking to me] never did like it, i said thats not true....and we had a huge fight, it lasted 3/4 hours, but at the end we werent mad, and something had been worked out....we were stunned. 

and so began the 2 years of hell. we basically had nothing to lose and everything to lose. the honesty was always there...things were so long ago, and buried under years of resentment, and "life". 

i didnt just wake up and say, im a open book, way to much anger. my husband had tried for years to get to the bottom of what was bothering me, of course 10 years later, i didnt remember exactly what it was.

we are both signed up here, and after reading and posting for a few months, i realized the little ****** in the facade, not that we are "fake", or "lie", but we both got really good at forgetting about problems of yesteryear, and being totally keyed into current problems.

there were certain things that i started to remember from long ago, and i wondered what happened to us. i made the decision to open up, and i wanted to try and fix us.

we didnt have any body with us, just smokes, [a lot] water, coffee, red bull. we had years of books, tv, and tam, movies, online/mag quizzes. we had the time, and jumped in a crash course. we learned words terms and phrases. we spoke with "to me", "i saw", "i felt", "i'm at fault...". lots of comparing old life to new life, lots and lots of talk talk talk talk.

we could speak harsh truths, but not out of being mean or cruel, we could still stop and say "hey that was uncalled for, and i wont sit here and continue to talk about this tonite". 

we have had these little talks over the years, but it was bigger, and needed more than a few days every few months. and i dont see the PSTD. we still have arguments, and with our new understanding, they go a lot easier, but sometimes....we are human, and it takes a while to full see and understanding. we are undoing years of crap.

we lived together since 1995. the old adage is true, kids shouldnt have kids, and they shouldnt live together.....well, what can you do now. so its easy to fall back into old fighting habits and patterns. its a, not a constant reminder, but its a sub-conscience thing now, something that says slow down, bring it back down, and breathe, and understand that you do know exactly what they are saying, but we are human.

and as ive said, we had a 2 year crash course, we have been together for 21 years, and our 12th wedding anniversary was a couple of weeks ago. we are still learning the "new" us-es. i must be just as guilty of the same actions....but i cant see me, i can only see out.


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## Drover

Pandakiss, Similar things happened to my wife and me. At some point she started feeling resentment, lack of trust, or something...whatever it was it made her not feel passionate or loving or affectionate toward me. Of course, when I stopped getting love I got resentful and angry and unable to connect with her. She mentions some things she thinks it was, but honestly none of them alone seems big enough to cause the issues we had. I think it was just the compound effect plus some unremembered things, and then me handling them badly.

Went on for over 10 years until I just said enough is enough. And started making changes. I started changing counterproductive communication patterns just like you describe. Started talking from a place of love and wanting to improve things rather than wanting to "win". I stopped getting angry and resentful and being defensive. I stopped arguing and stopped letting her be nasty to me. Our whole dynamic changed pretty quickly once the effort was made.


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## Cee Paul

Again, not a reader and probably never will be unless it's a very very short article or a personal message directed at me(like on message boards). And I agree about cutting back on the caffene, because I do drink coffee in the morning every single day(2-3 cups)and sometimes it's sweet tea for lunch or dinner ontop of that. It also doesn't help that I snorted and smoked tons of cocaine for about 4 years back in the late 80's/early 90's as well, and studies have showed that symptoms linger in the brain loooong after the user has totally quit.


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## Cherry

Cee Paul said:


> Again, not a reader and probably never will be unless it's a very very short article or a personal message directed at me(like on message boards). And I agree about cutting back on the caffene, because I do drink coffee in the morning every single day(2-3 cups)and sometimes it's sweet tea for lunch or dinner ontop of that. It also doesn't help that I snorted and smoked tons of cocaine for about 4 years back in the late 80's/early 90's as well, and studies have showed that symptoms linger in the brain loooong after the user has totally quit.


My H smoked crack for about 20 years off and on. Lots of crack. 

Good luck Cee Paul.


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## Cee Paul

Cherry said:


> My H smoked crack for about 20 years off and on. Lots of crack.
> 
> Good luck Cee Paul.


And even today 18 years after my last snort of coke I still grind my teeth & clinch my jaws as a result of abusing it.


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## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> I appreciate all the feedback so far and just for the record - I am not much of a reader and never have been(takes me 6 months to finish a book)


Well, maybe it's about time you pushed yourself a little bit outside your comfort zone and actually tried to learn and GROW, you know, like adults do?


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## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> Again, not a reader and probably never will be unless it's a very very short article or a personal message directed at me


Oh, for God's sake, stop making excuses.

It's not pretty. It's not admirable. In fact, it makes you look pretty embarrassing.

You won't/can't read?

Stop making excuses and FIND A SOLUTION. Hire a tutor. Buy a books on tape. Hire someone to READ TO YOU.

Oh, it's not my fault. I don't read. blahblahblah

Disgusting.


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## Drover

Yes, this is retarded. "My marriage is important to me. I'm resentful and don't understand but it's too much trouble to read a book." WTF?



turnera said:


> Oh, for God's sake, stop making excuses.
> 
> It's not pretty. It's not admirable. In fact, it makes you look pretty embarrassing.
> 
> You won't/can't read?
> 
> Stop making excuses and FIND A SOLUTION. Hire a tutor. Buy a books on tape. Hire someone to READ TO YOU.
> 
> Oh, it's not my fault. I don't read. blahblahblah
> 
> Disgusting.


----------



## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> And even today 18 years after my last snort of coke I still grind my teeth & clinch my jaws as a result of abusing it.


 waawaa poor baby

Not


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## Cee Paul

turnera said:


> waawaa poor baby
> 
> Not


Doesn't sound like you could ever work in a hospital or a doctor's office because you'd probably yell at the patients for being sick and call them losers, and you sound like a real treat to be around as well. And please if you would give us all the formula for being a PERFECT human being like yourself.


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## turnera

Well, it would start by reading books written by experts from whom you can learn something.


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## Cee Paul

turnera said:


> Well, it would start by reading books written by experts from whom you can learn something.


Did you hear that everybody? Those who are not into reading books or don't really enjoy it that much are now hereby ORDERED to start reading by queen Turnera, and if you suffer from ADD - depression - drug addictions - or maybe OCD you are also hereby ordered by her to "STOP IT" right now.


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## AFEH

Cee Paul said:


> Did you hear that everybody? Those who are not into reading books or don't really enjoy it that much are now hereby ORDERED to start reading by queen Turnera, and if you suffer from ADD - depression - drug addictions - or maybe OCD you are also hereby ordered by her to "STOP IT" right now.


Did I read you’re in your early 40s? You sound like a child. I hereby order you to grow up and act your age.


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## EleGirl

wifeofhusband said:


> Whoever wrote that a woman needs to be aroused emotionally to be aroused physically is onto something.


A quote I think states it well... a bit simplistic but it does get the idea across....

"Women need a reason to have sex. Men need a place."


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## RandomDude

Oh how can I be a drama king when I'm here completely oblivious to the drama before me... what the heck is going on between u guys and Cee Paul? Nevermind... I'll read...


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## RandomDude

Ah now I see...

Ne ways I'm not here to take anyone's side but I found it curious so... here goes. My wife and I has had a really long love/hate relationship in the very recent past where we have definitely got involved with shouting, cursing, threats, and even with her crying and hitting me at the same time which I find rather cute...

But there are lines that can be crossed which we have somehow, for reasons unknown -> managed to avoid. She knows me well enough to word a hideous insult at me disregarding my trust in her (and hell she could), or me to start calling her a w---- based on her past (which WILL be an instant dealbreaker for her no matter how much she loves me now - and I know that for a FACT). I don't believe in my wife's "God" but whatever it is -> we got lucky, and I'm lucky to know the line and have never crossed it (not entirely...) nor has she.

That's just something I picked out, and if anything... I would say that's what some here are noticing - there are words that can cut deeper then anything especially with your spouse. I risked it immensely when I mentioned the D word to my wife when I had enough of her BS

Despite being able to man up my wife was extremely hurt and I have suffered the consequences of this including the guilt of what I had done to her. I did what I had to do, but if there was another way I would have chosen it.

Remember there IS a line, always, that's my two cents.


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## EleGirl

Cee Paul said:


> I appreciate all the feedback so far and just for the record - I am not much of a reader and never have been(takes me 6 months to finish a book), but I appreciate all the book suggestions anyway. And secondly the anger issues I speak of are now at a chemical imbalance stage in my brain that will probably require medication & therapy, so to ask me to simply just turn it off or just stop is like asking someone who suffers from depression to just simply "feel happy", or for someone who has severe A.D.D. to just cut it out and pay attention.


An important point is that just because you have an anger issue, you cannot expect any woman to just accept angry outbursts.

If you are hungry and the only food that you can catch runs faster than you, you either need to learn to run faster or develop a very good hunting spear. You cannot ask that food to slow down so you can catch it.

The same goes for women and sex. You cannot take a creature that needs emotional stimulation, attention, etc .... instead use explosive behavior, ignore their need and then expect this creature to want sex. It ain't going to happen.


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## Cee Paul

AFEH said:


> Did I read you’re in your early 40s? You sound as though you’re actually in your early 4s.


And I'm sure you don't pout or throw a tantrum when you don't get what you want in your marriage, which is just another form of immaturity in my opinion.


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## Cee Paul

RandomDude said:


> Ah now I see...
> 
> Ne ways I'm not here to take anyone's side but I found it curious so... here goes. My wife and I has had a really long love/hate relationship in the very recent past where we have definitely got involved with shouting, cursing, threats, and even with her crying and hitting me at the same time which I find rather cute...
> 
> But there are lines that can be crossed which we have somehow, for reasons unknown -> managed to avoid. She knows me well enough to word a hideous insult at me disregarding my trust in her (and hell she could), or me to start calling her a w---- based on her past (which WILL be an instant dealbreaker for her no matter how much she loves me now - and I know that for a FACT). I don't believe in my wife's "God" but whatever it is -> we got lucky, and I'm lucky to know the line and have never crossed it (not entirely...) nor has she.
> 
> That's just something I picked out, and if anything... I would say that's what some here are noticing - there are words that can cut deeper then anything especially with your spouse. I risked it immensely when I mentioned the D word to my wife when I had enough of her BS
> 
> Despite being able to man up my wife was extremely hurt and I have suffered the consequences of this including the guilt of what I had done to her. I did what I had to do, but if there was another way I would have chosen it.
> 
> Remember there IS a line, always, that's my two cents.


Were you describing my marriage or yours? Because if that was your assessment of mine you were only right on about 10% of it and all the rest you were waaaaay off, and may have even gotten stories from my two marriages mixed up as well.


----------



## RandomDude

I won't profess to know sh-t on an online forum mate

But now I'm very curious, what is that 10%?


----------



## AFEH

EleGirl said:


> A quote I think states it well... a bit simplistic but it does get the idea across....
> 
> "*Women need a reason to have sex. Men need a place.*"


Speaking as a man, that’s a total load of absolute tosh.


----------



## RandomDude

> Speaking as a man, that’s a total load of absolute tosh


Agreed, why the fk even would I be complaining so often about my wife's HD (CORRECTION: ID - INSANE drive) sex drive if I simply "need a place" to have fking sex.


----------



## Cee Paul

RandomDude said:


> I won't profess to know sh-t on an online forum mate
> 
> But now I'm very curious, what is that 10%?


The yelling and arguing part but that's about it and the rest was probably a mix up on my part or something.


----------



## RandomDude

And that's pretty much all I wanted to say really...

I guess I can't really be of much help but yeah, you know how it is. Not going to be longwinded and I hope you find some wisdom in the concept of self-control that's all.


----------



## AFEH

Cee Paul said:


> And I'm sure you don't pout or throw a tantrum when you don't get what you want in your marriage, which is just another form of immaturity in my opinion.


I could explain to you how for 42 years I had sex with my wife whenever and wherever I wanted. But it’s not as simplistic as you think it is and it depends a lot on the two people within the marriage.

People live by their values and beliefs, that’s what drives their behaviour. A person’s behaviour is “rule based”. For example if a person values their credibility then they have rules that say things like “I do not steal. I do not lie”. Get my drift?

My wife valued marriage and believed sex was one of the foundations of marriage. So she had a rule that went something like “Never deny AFEH sex”. In all the years we were together I cannot remember her ever denying me sex. Not once under any circumstances. And believe me I was no LD guy. But. I had to be the type of man she valued in order for her to (a) marry me and (b) stay married to me. And my rules said things like “Be the provider”. “Care for her, look after her” and much more.



I can tell you that you go about it the wrong way. I can also tell you that you will continue forever going about it the wrong way and you’ll forever be decrying the lack of sex in your life.


----------



## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> Did you hear that everybody? Those who are not into reading books or don't really enjoy it that much are now hereby ORDERED to start reading by queen Turnera, and if you suffer from ADD - depression - drug addictions - or maybe OCD you are also hereby ordered by her to "STOP IT" right now.


If you suffer from such things, I would reiterate - as MANY have done - that you would benefit from REAL PROFESSIONAL help and quit whining about how you're being picked on. You don't like my advice? Fine, I don't give a hoot. But you're here trying to 'get' something and you've discredited every bit of advice you've been given...because it requires work on your part.

The bottom line is, a woman is free to walk away every day of your life. If you want her to NOT do that, you find out what would make her STAY and do that. If my H yelled at me, I probably wouldn't stay, and I sure as hell wouldn't have sex with him. That's a good place to start.


----------



## turnera

EleGirl said:


> An important point is that just because you have an anger issue, you cannot expect any woman to just accept angry outbursts. If you are hungry and the only food that you can catch runs faster than you, you either need to learn to run faster or develop a very good hunting spear. You cannot ask that food to slow down so you can catch it. The same goes for women and sex. You cannot take a creature that needs emotional stimulation, attention, etc .... instead use explosive behavior, ignore their need and then expect this creature to want sex. It ain't going to happen.


Exactly what I mean. I'm sure you're a great guy. With an anger issue. And then you are unhappy because you can't get what you want in the woman department. So if you keep doing what isn't working, why do you get surprised? You can't make some woman want to be with you when you Love Bust her with anger issues. You want her to want to be with you? STOP the Love Buster. And if you can't just stop being angry, GET HELP. If you won't go to a professional, there's only one other way I can think of, and that's to READ the advice of professionals who can teach you how to do it. 

So...you either keep getting what you don't want - women turning you down - or you change your course, get outside your comfort zone, and figure some other way to change what about you they don't like. Therapist, websites, books, group counseling, or just wake up one day and say "I will never show anger aagain."...figure out something.


----------



## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> The yelling and arguing part but that's about it and the rest was probably a mix up on my part or something.


 Cee Paul, have you and your SO ever filled out the Love Buster questionnaire?


----------



## Cherry

Cee Paul said:


> And I'm sure you don't pout or throw a tantrum when you don't get what you want in your marriage, which is just another form of immaturity in my opinion.


Can you give other examples of pouting or throwing tantrums? My H use to do it over not getting sex, or not getting a truck that there was no way in he!! we could afford, etc.. but we revamped our whole communication style and we discuss things more calmly.. he doesn't throw tantrums.. we discuss things now. 

After reading this thread Cee Paul, I really think it would behoove you to seek help somehow for your anger issues. It really could be a lot of the reason things are suffering in the bedroom. 

Quick story.. we were grocery shopping about a week ago and my H just started getting aggravated at our twins and how they were acting.. they are toddlers. He snapped at my son and tossed a package at him.. it hit him in the face and to me it looked like he threw it. But whatever, he's 4, no reason to throw something at him... It pi$$ed me off to no end and I walked away... it directly affected my attraction to him. And everytime I looked at him for the next several days all I saw was his hatefulness towards our toddler... He knew he had fvcked up too and he didn't attempt sex for a week, and I damn sure didn't come onto him. Like I've said, my H has anger issues and he is desperately trying to change.. but like you, he sometimes falls back on the excuse that he can't help it.. but I remind him that I can't help that my attraction for him will continue to fade.. choice is his.. If I came across him complaining on a forum about his sex life... I bet he wouldn't include the fact that on four occasions hes left bumps and bruises on me and by all accounts should be in prison for assault, he has called me a c*nt and a wh*re on countless occasions, he's thrown ghords at my car and kicked it causing several thousands in damage, he's thrown my indoor cats outside in 0 degree weather, he's broken many a things in the house, the list of abusive and scary things go on and on.. and two years since it has been improving, there is still work to be done, but I can tell he is sincerely trying... If its too late for my attraction to him to be fully repaired, he knows the temper and anger improvement is for his children's future. 

Sorry I got a bit long winded


----------



## Cee Paul

Cherry said:


> Can you give other examples of pouting or throwing tantrums? My H use to do it over not getting sex, or not getting a truck that there was no way in he!! we could afford, etc.. but we revamped our whole communication style and we discuss things more calmly.. he doesn't throw tantrums.. we discuss things now.
> 
> After reading this thread Cee Paul, I really think it would behoove you to seek help somehow for your anger issues. It really could be a lot of the reason things are suffering in the bedroom.
> 
> Quick story.. we were grocery shopping about a week ago and my H just started getting aggravated at our twins and how they were acting.. they are toddlers. He snapped at my son and tossed a package at him.. it hit him in the face and to me it looked like he threw it. But whatever, he's 4, no reason to throw something at him... It pi$$ed me off to no end and I walked away... it directly affected my attraction to him. And everytime I looked at him for the next several days all I saw was his hatefulness towards our toddler... He knew he had fvcked up too and he didn't attempt sex for a week, and I damn sure didn't come onto him. Like I've said, my H has anger issues and he is desperately trying to change.. but like you, he sometimes falls back on the excuse that he can't help it.. but I remind him that I can't help that my attraction for him will continue to fade.. choice is his.. If I came across him complaining on a forum about his sex life... I bet he wouldn't include the fact that on four occasions hes left bumps and bruises on me and by all accounts should be in prison for assault, he has called me a c*nt and a wh*re on countless occasions, he's thrown ghords at my car and kicked it causing several thousands in damage, he's thrown my indoor cats outside in 0 degree weather, he's broken many a things in the house, the list of abusive and scary things go on and on.. and two years since it has been improving, there is still work to be done, but I can tell he is sincerely trying... If its too late for my attraction to him to be fully repaired, he knows the temper and anger improvement is for his children's future.
> 
> Sorry I got a bit long winded


Again where is all this _hitting_ stuff and throwing things at babies coming from? I have NEVER.....EVER harmed one hair on any woman or child's head because that's not how I was raised, and even when my ex started striking me in the middle of heated arguements I NEVER once hit her back, and after it happened for the 3rd time in about 2 months I did the right thing and packed up and left for good. Just for the record and go ahead and stamp this in stone; when my wife and I argue or get into heated arguements and curse each other out it always takes place..............*from across the room.*

And from the sounds of it some of you sound like you want me to just pull out my spine, tuck my private parts underneath, and curl up in a ball and say "yes mam - no mam-" everytime she speaks. That is not me and not who I am and I would not expect her to do that either for me.


----------



## Drover

Cee Paul said:


> And I'm sure you don't pout or throw a tantrum when you don't get what you want in your marriage, which is just another form of immaturity in my opinion.


Ummmm...no. Have you been paying attention? That's the kind of behavior you need to change. You're not a child. Do you really have some idea in your head that other men behave that way and their wives still want to have sex with them?


----------



## Cherry

Cee Paul said:


> Again where is all this _hitting_ stuff and throwing things at babies coming from? I have NEVER.....EVER harmed one hair on any woman or child's head because that's not how I was raised, and even when my ex started striking me in the middle of heated arguements I NEVER once hit her back, and after it happened for the 3rd time in about 2 months I did the right thing and packed up and left for good. Just for the record and go ahead and stamp this in stone; when my wife and I argue or get into heated arguements and curse each other out it always takes place..............*from across the room.*


I was sharing my story and the cursing was only one of the components of his anger issue that he has worked on fixing. Perhaps you stick to just cursing at her.. for me that would get old and still cause me to not be attracted to my H... So same result as if he had hit me.


----------



## Cee Paul

Drover said:


> Ummmm...no. Have you been paying attention? That's the kind of behavior you need to change. You're not a child. Do you really have some idea in your head that other men behave that way and their wives still want to have sex with them?


Anyone that I have ever come across wether it's spouses, family members, friends, co-workers, neighbors, or just people I see on tv who are in their 40's - 50's - and sometimes beyond; all display some level or form of immaturity and those who don't believe that are only fooling themselves.


----------



## Drover

Cee Paul said:


> Again where is all this _hitting_ stuff and throwing things at babies coming from? I have NEVER.....EVER harmed one hair on any woman or child's head because that's not how I was raised, and even when my ex started striking me in the middle of heated arguements I NEVER once hit her back, and after it happened for the 3rd time in about 2 months I did the right thing and packed up and left for good. Just for the record and go ahead and stamp this in stone; when my wife and I argue or get into heated arguements and curse each other out it always takes place.............from across the room.
> 
> *And from the sounds of it some of you sound like you want me to just pull out my spine, tuck my private parts underneath, and curl up in a ball and say "yes mam - no mam-" everytime she speaks. That is not me and not who I am and I would not expect her to do that either for me.*


No, that's not just "who you are". That's just behavior...just _bad_ behavior. 

No one is saying you should tuck your private parts, etc. But you need to understand that yelling back is_ just as weak_. Calling her names is _just as weak_. Throwing a tantrum is _just as weak_. And she does NOT want you to be weak. 

Being in control of yourself is strong. Calmly telling her that if she's going to yell, you're not going to respond is strong. Stating your feelings one time, and only one time, and then walking away from her argument is strong. Laughing at her tantrum and telling her to knock it off and come back to discuss it when she's ready to do it without yelling is strong.

It might infuriate her at first. But she'll respect you for it, and she'll learn that if she wants you to listen, she'll have to talk to you with respect. And you have to give her the same respect.


----------



## Drover

Cee Paul said:


> Anyone that I have ever come across wether it's spouses, family members, friends, co-workers, neighbors, or just people I see on tv who are in their 40's - 50's - and sometimes beyond; all display some level or form of immaturity and those who don't believe that are only fooling themselves.


"Some form of immaturity" is not the same as behaving like a child on a daily basis to the point that it alienates your loved ones and ruins your most important relationships.

This seems to be the crux of the problem. You seem to deny that there is anything really wrong with your behavior even though it is ruining your marriage. You seem to really feel this behavior is somehow "normal" and therefore you shouldn't even try to change it.

But it's not working for you. It's not going to work for you. What will it take for you to realize you need to fix this in order to have a working marriage?


----------



## Cee Paul

Drover said:


> No, that's not just "who you are". That's just behavior...just _bad_ behavior.
> 
> No one is saying you should tuck your private parts, etc. But you need to understand that yelling back is_ just as weak_. Calling her names is _just as weak_. Throwing a tantrum is _just as weak_. And she does NOT want you to be weak.
> 
> Being in control of yourself is strong. Calmly telling her that if she's going to yell, you're not going to respond is strong. Stating your feelings one time, and only one time, and then walking away from her argument is strong. Laughing at her tantrum and telling her to knock it off and come back to discuss it when she's ready to do it without yelling is strong.
> 
> It might infuriate her at first. But she'll respect you for it, and she'll learn that if she wants you to listen, she'll have to talk to you with respect. And you have to give her the same respect.


If it was as simple as that all the marital problems in the world would be solved by tomorrow morning, and my parents who were married for 58 years until my mom passed in 2009 had this same issue for the first 10 years of their marriage according to my dad. And he says that we can work through this and that as he got older he's calmed down a lot(he had a nasty temper and would break stuff when we were growing up), so that does give me some hope for the future. But as far as my wife and my mother go they are two totally and complete opposites; and my mother was always a verrry calm person who rarely raised her voice, while my wife is LOUD and has a pretty filthy mouth and can argue just about anyone under the table.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Cee Paul said:


> Most people who treat me well is because I also treat them well, and those who don't I usually ask them to get away from me or I simply threaten to beat the hell out of them, and I'm not a small guy(6'3 and 240lbs)so that usually works 99% of the time. But with my wife I cannot do any of those things but I am rude right back to her and have cursed her out several times when she's treating me like crap, but if it all continues on then I will be forced to leave and hopefully find a better situation somewhere down the road.


I don't know you at all so I'm not saying this as if I do. But for a couple to curse at each other and be rude to each other is a verbally abusive one - both ways. 

I would suggest if you want both better sex AND a better relationship that you suggest MC. Otherwise, cut your losses.

I can tell you from experience (although I wasn't rude and I was compliant sexually to avoid fights) that it would take me WEEKS to get over being called a name or being treated meanly. I once read (can't quote source) that it takes 10 nice/pleasant comments/exchanges to overcome ONE negative one. And I truly believe that. 

If you two are rude and belittling to one another, I suggest you part - you aren't good for each other.

Sorry if this has already been suggested. I don't mean to be redundant.


----------



## Cee Paul

Drover said:


> "Some form of immaturity" is not the same as behaving like a child on a daily basis to the point that it alienates your loved ones and ruins your most important relationships.
> 
> *This seems to be the crux of the problem. You seem to deny that there is anything really wrong with your behavior even though it is ruining your marriage. You seem to really feel this behavior is somehow "normal" and therefore you shouldn't even try to change it.*
> 
> But it's not working for you. It's not going to work for you. What will it take for you to realize you need to fix this in order to have a working marriage?


Whaaaat? You need to go back and comb over at least 100 of my past postings, because anyone here that has followed them will tell you that I have admitted and acknowledged that I have an anger issue and need help many many many many times.


----------



## AFEH

Cee Paul said:


> Whaaaat? You need to go back and comb over at least 100 of my past postings, because anyone here that has followed them will tell you that I have admitted and acknowledged that I have an anger issue and need help many many many many times.


So what? What is your point?


By saying you've got a problem yet doing nothing about it you're not even remotely halfway there with a solution.


----------



## Drover

Cee Paul said:


> Whaaaat? You need to go back and comb over at least 100 of my past postings, because anyone here that has followed them will tell you that I have admitted and acknowledged that I have an anger issue and need help many many many many times.


And yet here you are arguing with people trying to help you, refusing to read anything that might help, not going to therapy, and rationalizing away why you can't change with every post you make.


----------



## turnera

EnjoliWoman said:


> I can tell you from experience (although I wasn't rude and I was compliant sexually to avoid fights) that it would take me WEEKS to get over being called a name or being treated meanly.


That's what I meant, too. It doesn't matter what kind of rude/mean/angry behavior it is, and it doesn't matter if she did it first (what was that about immaturity?), if YOU engage in such behavior, _you just turned off your wife_.


----------



## Cherry

Cee Paul said:


> Whaaaat? You need to go back and comb over at least 100 of my past postings, because anyone here that has followed them will tell you that I have admitted and acknowledged that I have an anger issue and need help many many many many times.


You've also thrown in excuses why you won't address it... And now you say your dad had the same issue but outgrew it? All by himself? And wifey was patiently and calmly accepting it? No issues? Okay then, wait to outgrow it and stop complaining about lack of sex. It'll change all by itself, right?


----------



## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> I have admitted and acknowledged that I have an anger issue and need help many many many many times.


 And what are you doing to get that help? Did I miss where you said you had signed up for therapy? If so, I apologize.


----------



## Cherry

turnera said:


> And what are you doing to get that help? Did I miss where you said you had signed up for therapy? If so, I apologize.


Nooo.. because he was justified by what his father said.. he will outgrow it and calm down as he ages..


----------



## Drover

Cee Paul said:


> If it was as simple as that all the marital problems in the world would be solved by tomorrow morning, and my parents who were married for 58 years until my mom passed in 2009 had this same issue for the first 10 years of their marriage according to my dad. And he says that we can work through this and that as he got older he's calmed down a lot(he had a nasty temper and would break stuff when we were growing up), so that does give me some hope for the future. But as far as my wife and my mother go they are two totally and complete opposites; and my mother was always a verrry calm person who rarely raised her voice, while my wife is LOUD and has a pretty filthy mouth and can argue just about anyone under the table.


Not all of the marital problems of the world involve people screaming and cursing at each other. In cases where that is the problem, yes, it's usually that simple. 

Women are made for arguing. They get emotional, and we aren't built for meeting emotion with emotion. When they bring emotion into it, it's almost impossible to win the argument. And even when you do win the argument, you still lose because you still aren't going to get what you want.

Don't meet her on her home ground. Take the emotion out. Refuse to give in to anger. Remain calm. Just sit and watch her rant. Smile at her and don't say anything. If you can't do that, walk away. 

This really is simple. What you're doing isn't working and isn't going to work. She doesn't respect you. She is NOT going to respect you when you're out of control. And you won't get what you want from her when she doesn't respect you.


----------



## Drover

EnjoliWoman said:


> If you two are rude and belittling to one another, I suggest you part - you aren't good for each other.


The thing is that won't solve his problem. His next relationship won't be any better. Unless she just has really low self-esteem, no woman is going to put up with his tantrums or respect him when he's out of control.


----------



## Cherry

I'll share another story cee paul, doesn't mean it is happening in your marriage... But when my H was at the height of his abusive ways, I was at the height of my alcoholism. When the abuse came to head.. and my H really started working on him.. I was still drinking, a lot. As much as my H tried to remain calm, I was still lashing out at him, drunkenly. I was lashing out at everyone. My H was changing for the better and I was deterioting and we were still fighting a lot. A year after he started improving himself, the marriage and my life was still filled with drama... So I started taking a hard look at my drinking problem. A year later and we are both continually trying to improve what we can in our marriage.. together now, me without drinking and H controlling his temper/anger. 

My H took the first step in the marriage to fix his side.. I followed suit.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Drover said:


> The thing is that won't solve his problem. His next relationship won't be any better. Unless she just has really low self-esteem, no woman is going to put up with his tantrums or respect him when he's out of control.


I agree - but was recommended if she isn't willing to try MC. I agree he still needs IC regardless for successful relationships in the future.


----------



## EleGirl

AFEH said:


> Speaking as a man, that’s a total load of absolute tosh.


I did say that it was simplistic.


----------



## Cee Paul

Not to be mean but those taking shots at me for not handling my issues are probably being _hipocritical_; because I am quite sure there are issues with weight - or smoking - or alchohol - or infidelity - or whatever, and you probably continue to sit there day after day and say "maaaan I gotta do something about this and try and stop". Because those are all normal problems that people tend to have, and I am willing to bet the world that at least one out of the four people that just rudely & sarcastically addressed my situation, has one of these problems and keeps doing nothing about it. So while you're typing out all of this advice I am picturing one of you weighing about 250 lbs with a plate of chocolate cake in your lap, and another one with a cigarette in your left hand and a glass of scotch in the other sitting in your bathrobes @ 2:00 in the afternoon. 

In other words..............."people in glass houses".


----------



## AFEH

EleGirl said:


> I did say that it was simplistic.


You did.


----------



## AFEH

Cee Paul said:


> Not to be mean but those taking shots at me for not handling my issues are probably being _hipocritical_; because I am quite sure there are issues with weight - or smoking - or alchohol - or infidelity - or whatever, and you probably continue to sit there day after day and say "maaaan I gotta do something about this and try and stop". Because those are all normal problems that people tend to have, and I am willing to bet the world that at least one out of the four people that just rudely & sarcastically addressed my situation, has one of these problems and keeps doing nothing about it. So while you're typing out all of this advice I am picturing one of you weighing about 250 lbs with a plate of chocolate cake in your lap, and another one with a cigarette in your left hand and a glass of scotch in the other sitting in your bathrobes @ 2:00 in the afternoon.
> 
> In other words..............."people in glass houses".


You do things that are guaranteed to not get you the sex life you say you want.

You avoid doing things others say will get you the sex life you want.

The only possible conclusion is that you just don’t want sex. You avoid it like the plague by doing what you do, by behaving as you do.


And it’s worked all your life so why change now. Because for sure if you change it means you will get sex, when in fact that’s the very last thing you want.


----------



## Cosmos

Cee Paul said:


> Anyone that I have ever come across wether it's spouses, family members, friends, co-workers, neighbors, or just people I see on tv who are in their 40's - 50's - and sometimes beyond; all display some level or form of immaturity and those who don't believe that are only fooling themselves.


Of course we do. But once we become_ aware _of it, and its negative effects, we make every effort to change it. Initially, it can be hard work, but eventually living 'mindfully' can become a very healthy habit.


----------



## Cherry

Cee Paul said:


> Not to be mean but those taking shots at me for not handling my issues are probably being _hipocritical_; because I am quite sure there are issues with weight - or smoking - or alchohol - or infidelity - or whatever, and you probably continue to sit there day after day and say "maaaan I gotta do something about this and try and stop". Because those are all normal problems that people tend to have, and I am willing to bet the world that at least one out of the four people that just rudely & sarcastically addressed my situation, has one of these problems and keeps doing nothing about it. So while you're typing out all of this advice I am picturing one of you weighing about 250 lbs with a plate of chocolate cake in your lap, and another one with a cigarette in your left hand and a glass of scotch in the other sitting in your bathrobes @ 2:00 in the afternoon.
> 
> In other words..............."people in glass houses".


You asked a question and a lot of people have taken the time to understand and offer feedback specific to your situation and all you can do is try an insult them? IMO you are the one being hypocritical. 

You know you have an anger problem, I am not so sure what makes you think it has nothing to do with what is lacking in the bedroom. You mention your wife can lash right back at you... So what, its obviously not affecting your desire for her.. you are the only one who appears to be upset over the lack of sex in your home. 

I hope that you will at least consider the feedback you've gotten and what's the worst that can happen if you let go of that temper? Nothing changes and you'll prove to us that we are wrong . How fun would that be?


----------



## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> Not to be mean but those taking shots at me for not handling my issues are probably being _hipocritical_


Do you know what the difference is, Cee Paul?

YOU complain about not getting enough sex, and we give you tons of ways to FIX that, and you dismiss it all cos it isn't the magic pill you want to change your wife.

If I decided to lose weight and went to a forum to ask how to do it, and I then ignored all the advice and griped at the people for giving me such lame advice when all I wanted was that new fat loss medicine...well, then you'd have a point.

You DID come for advice and you didn't like it, and that's fine. But to turn the onus over onto US? :scratchhead:


----------



## Cee Paul

To the last few responses: I have no problem with people giving advice or throwing their .02 into the arena, but when you come off all snotty and sarcastic nobody out there is going to listen to you or care what you have to say. Try that on someone in person that you hardly know and see what happens.......I guarantee it won't be good.


----------



## Cee Paul

AFEH said:


> You do things that are guaranteed to not get you the sex life you say you want.
> 
> You avoid doing things others say will get you the sex life you want.
> 
> The only possible conclusion is that you just don’t want sex. You avoid it like the plague by doing what you do, by behaving as you do.
> 
> 
> And it’s worked all your life so why change now. Because for sure if you change it means you will get sex, when in fact that’s the very last thing you want.


Yeah that's it - uhhhh huh, and I hate sex and the exciting euphoric feeling that it brings me. LMAO! :rofl:


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Cee Paul said:


> So if most guys are horny creatures and it doesn't take much to get us in the mood and into the sack anytime or anywhere, and with a lot of women it takes a ton of foreplay and all the stars & planets being aligned to get them in the mood and ready for sex, then WHO'S fault is it mainly(not all)when the sex is cut off and non-existent for 3 months - 6 months - a year in a marriage or relationship??


i feel like this is a chicken/egg question.

unless someone has medical reasons for being LD,you aren't LD just bc you want the planets and stars aligned.

when the sex is cut off,i don't think it's anyone's FAULT really. why does there have to be the blame game going on? why not try to figure it out and fix it together instead of pointing fingers?

if people are being honest, the LD partner would express their needs in a clear,concise manner and the HD partner would do his/her best to make sure those needs are met so the sex can happen more often.

people(men and women) sometimes need to feel valued,safe,secure,sexy in order to want sex. instead of blaming them for needing that, the HD partner should stop pouting about not getting any and do his/her best to meet those needs. 

and as for the LD partner, if they aren't voicing what they need to get in the mood for sex,then they can't whine when the HD partner isn't giving it and isn't understanding what the issues are.


----------



## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> Yeah that's it - uhhhh huh, and I hate sex and the exciting euphoric feeling that it brings me. LMAO! :rofl:


Well, that's the takeaway from someone ASKING for advice and then saying he won't follow any of the advice to get what he SAYS he wants.

It sounds more like you just want HER to change while you do nothing and, if she won't, you're just as content to BLAME her when she won't change.

Here's a real quick, easy-to-read synopsis of the advice you're being given, the way to ensure that your woman will continue to want to please you in SF and elsewhere:

Within each of us is a Love Bank that keeps track of the way each person treats us. Everyone we know has an account and the things they do either deposit or withdraw love units from their accounts. It's your emotions' way of encouraging you to be with those who make you happy. When you associate someone with good feelings, deposits are made into that person's account in your Love Bank. And when the Love Bank reaches a certain level of deposits (the romantic love threshold), the feeling of love is triggered. As long as your Love Bank balance remains above that threshold, you will experience the feeling of love. But when it falls below that threshold, you will lose that feeling. You will like anyone with a balance above zero, but you will only be in love with someone whose balance is above the love threshold. However, your emotions do not simply encourage you to be with those who make you happy -- they also discourage you from being with those who make you unhappy. Whenever you associate someone with bad feelings, withdrawals are made in your Love Bank. And if you withdraw more than you deposit, your Love Bank balance can fall below zero. When that happens the Love Bank turns into the Hate Bank. You will dislike those with moderate negative balances, but if the balance falls below the hate threshold, you will hate the person.

Instincts are behavioral patterns that we are born with, and habits are patterns that we learn. Both of them tend to be repeated again and again almost effortlessly. They are important in our discussion of what it takes to be in love because it's our behavior that makes deposits and withdrawals from Love Banks, and our instincts and habits make up most of our behavior. 
Instincts and habits can make Love Bank deposits, so it is imperative to know how to create those habits because once they are learned, deposits are made repeatedly and almost effortlessly. Unfortunately, many of our instincts and habits, such as angry outbursts, contribute to Love Bank withdrawals. Since they are repeated so often, they play a very important role in the annihilation of Love Bank accounts. If we are to stop Love Bank withdrawals, we must somehow stop destructive instincts and habits in their tracks. Instincts are harder to stop than habits, but they can both be avoided. 

What's the fastest way to deposit love units into each other's Love Banks? I interviewed literally hundreds of couples trying to find the answer to this question when I was first learning how to save marriages. Eventually their answer became clear to me -- you must meet each other's most important emotional needs. You and your spouse fell in love with each other because you made each other very happy, and you made each other happy because you met some of each other's important emotional needs. The only way you and your spouse will stay in love is to keep meeting those needs. Even when the feeling of love begins to fade, or when it's gone entirely, it's not necessarily gone for good. It can be recovered whenever you both go back to making large Love Bank deposits. 

When you meet each other's most important emotional needs, you become each other's source of greatest happiness. But if you are not careful, you can also become each other's source of greatest unhappiness. 
It's pointless to deposit love units if you withdraw them right away. So in addition to meeting important emotional needs, you must be sure to protect your spouse, and the Love Bank, from withdrawals. And paying attention to how your everyday behavior can make each other unhappy does that. You and your spouse were born to be demanding, disrespectful, angry, annoying, independent and dishonest. These are normal human traits that I call Love Busters because they destroy the feeling of love spouses have for each other. But if you promise to avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness, you will do whatever it takes to overcome these destructive tendencies for your spouse's protection. By eliminating Love Busters, you will not only be protecting your spouse, but you will also be preserving your spouse's love for you.


----------



## Drover

Cee Paul said:


> Not to be mean but those taking shots at me for not handling my issues are probably being _hipocritical_; because I am quite sure there are issues with weight - or smoking - or alchohol - or infidelity - or whatever, and you probably continue to sit there day after day and say "maaaan I gotta do something about this and try and stop". Because those are all normal problems that people tend to have, and I am willing to bet the world that at least one out of the four people that just rudely & sarcastically addressed my situation, has one of these problems and keeps doing nothing about it. So while you're typing out all of this advice I am picturing one of you weighing about 250 lbs with a plate of chocolate cake in your lap, and another one with a cigarette in your left hand and a glass of scotch in the other sitting in your bathrobes @ 2:00 in the afternoon.
> 
> In other words..............."people in glass houses".


Wow...just wow. So you're unwilling to take good advice because the person giving may have a problem in their life? 

And no I don't have any of those problems, but if I did and they were ruining something as important to me as my marriage, then yes, I would make an effort to change, to fix the problem. I would not just try to rationalize it away until my marriage was destroyed. Have I ever ignored a problem and hoped it would go away? Yes, and it was the wrong thing to do. But if I had gotten good advice like people are giving you here, I would have listened.


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## Drover

You know what's making Cee Paul angry. His wife told him what the problem is but he didn't feel like addressing it. So he came here looking for a different answer. Now we're telling him the same thing she did. We're validating her view, and he just doesn't like it any better coming from us.


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## turnera

I know. And such men will continue to plug their ears and go lalalalala...right until he comes home and finds an empty house.

And then that will be HER fault, too.


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## Drover

turnera said:


> I know. And such men will continue to plug their ears and go lalalalala...right until he comes home and finds an empty house.
> 
> And then that will be HER fault, too.


Or maybe it will be our fault?


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## Cee Paul

Drover said:


> You know what's making Cee Paul angry. His wife told him what the problem is but he didn't feel like addressing it. So he came here looking for a different answer. Now we're telling him the same thing she did. We're validating her view, and he just doesn't like it any better coming from us.



Ehhhhh - wrong; I came here one night after searching for a website where people were having similar marital problems and found this one. And my wife is a person who is NOT a good communicator and does not like to address issues, which in return makes me want to go elsewhere to vent and talk about it all, because I fully believe in putting things on the table and discussing them. And for the most part I have come across people on here who know how to get their point across to me without being snotty or rude or point their fingers, but for some that's just how they respond in writing and unfortuneatly in their real lives too(and then wonder why nobody ever listens to them).


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## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> And my wife is a person who *is NOT a good communicator and does not like to address issues, *which in return makes me want to go elsewhere to vent and talk about it all, because* I fully believe in putting things on the table and discussing them*. And for the most part I have come across people on here who know how to get their point across to me without being snotty or rude or point their fingers, but for some that's just how they respond in writing and unfortuneatly in their real lives too(and then wonder why nobody ever listens to them).


And...how on EARTH would you know how posters here respond in real life? Sounds like something a 6th grader would say.

Anyhoo, the bolded part above? If you learned more about how females work, you'd find that women often retreat and STOP communicating once they learn that their men 'believe in putting things on the table and discussing them.' It's just human nature. So if you wanted her to communicate more, give more SF, want to please you more, it would behoove you to look more closely at your own actions, because they DIRECTLY AFFECT hers.

Just as you're wasting days and days trying to get back at people here for 'being snotty' because you feel put upon, it's a safe bet that she, too, feels put upon by your way of doing things. And shuts down. And you are the one losing out.

It's your choice to waste your efforts on all the wrong things. In the end, you're just pissed off at us for not being nicer to you, you didn't listen to ANY of our advice from what I can see, and you STILL aren't getting any.


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## turnera

The #1 reason women stop having SF with their men is that the men Love Bust them. Typically, men have sex to feel loved while women have to feel loved to have sex.


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## Drover

Cee Paul said:


> Ehhhhh - wrong; I came here one night after searching for a website where people were having similar marital problems and found this one. And my wife is a person who is NOT a good communicator and does not like to address issues, which in return makes me want to go elsewhere to vent and talk about it all, because I fully believe in putting things on the table and discussing them. And for the most part I have come across people on here who know how to get their point across to me without being snotty or rude or point their fingers, but for some that's just how they respond in writing and unfortuneatly in their real lives too(and then wonder why nobody ever listens to them).


She told you that you have to get your anger issues under control. We have told you that you have to get your anger issues under control. All you've done is give excuses as to why you can't do that, won't learn to do that, and why you shouldn't have to do that. Until you do that, you can't expect her to want to have sex with you. It's that simple. People are not being snotty to you. They're being blunt in an attempt to get you to see what's in front of your face that you're just refusing to accept. Your behavior in this thread is EXACTLY why she doesn't want anything to do with you.


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## Drover

turnera said:


> The #1 reason women stop having SF with their men is that the men Love Bust them. Typically, men have sex to feel loved while women have to feel loved to have sex.


What is SF? I haven't read the love busters book. What are you referring to here?


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## turnera

SF = sexual fulfillment, which covers the gamut of ways to receive this Emotional Need.

Love Buster is a term coined by Willard Harley (marriagebuilders.com - but avoid their forums at all costs), as is Emotional Need. In his book His Needs Her Needs, he describes relationships as an equation. You meet your partner's top ENs to fill their 'love bank' (I call it a love bucket) with love feelings, so they're happy with you and eager to keep YOU happy. You make your partner UNhappy by Love Busting them - doing things that annoy or upset them. It could be huge like buying a motorcycle without asking her first, it could be tiny like leaving dirty Q-tips lying around the house and expecting your wife to pick them up and throw them away - even when she's told you repeatedly that it grosses her out - so that she feels slighted, ignored, and unhappy. Over freakin' Q-tips. (can you tell this is a personal one of mine, lol?)

If you poke holes in that bucket with your LBs, it won't matter how many ENs you meet for your partner, they'll be too busy resenting you for making them unhappy to care - all the ENs just flow right out of all the holes you've poked in the bucket - it CAN never get filled!

So your first step (as we keep telling Cee Paul) is to STOP those Love Busters, so that your partner will WANT to please you.


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## turnera

YOu can print out his Love Buster questionnaire from his website, and both of you fill it out. You'll learn HOW you LB your spouse so you can work on removing those bad habits. I tell people to do this for 3 months, to break the habits.

Then you can print out the Emotional Needs questionnaire, to find out what your partner's top 5 ENs are. You then work VERY hard to be the ONLY person filling those ENs for her. If you don't, she can find herself getting an EN (emotion, conversation, etc.) met by someone outside the marriage, even if she didn't intend to.


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## Cee Paul

Again some people know how to approach others and get their points across in a respectful manner, and others come off like a total witch and wonder why people aren't taking their advice about anything.


A quote from Bill Cosby on the old Cosby show: _"I loooove a nice juicy porterhouse steak, but if you present it to me on a garbage can lid - I don't want it"._


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## Drover

Cee Paul said:


> Again some people know how to approach others and get their points across in a respectful manner, and others come off like a total b*tch and wonder why people aren't taking their advice about anything.
> 
> 
> A quote from Bill Cosby on the old Cosby show: _"I loooove a nice juicy porterhouse steak, but if you present it to me on a garbage can lid - I don't want it"._


Pot. Kettle. Black. But keep in mind the only one being hurt by your refusal to take advice is you, not the people giving the advice.


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## Cherry

Cee Paul said:


> Again some people know how to approach others and get their points across in a respectful manner, and others come off like a total b*tch and wonder why people aren't taking their advice about anything.
> 
> 
> A quote from Bill Cosby on the old Cosby show: _"I loooove a nice juicy porterhouse steak, but if you present it to me on a garbage can lid - I don't want it"._


Okay - some posters have said nicely and calmly that you should address your anger issues, others have been more snooty. It's been presented BOTH ways so just take the nice way and roll with it . At least consider that they might be onto something.


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## Cee Paul

Cherry said:


> Okay - some posters have said nicely and calmly that you should address your anger issues, others have been more snooty. It's been presented BOTH ways so just take the nice way and roll with it . At least consider that they might be onto something.


That type response I can respect and appreciate, and there are days when you approach me in a friendly manner Cherry and other days you're a total jerk. All I ask is that people stay _consistent_ with me wether that's on here or in face to face everyday life, and I will try my best to do the same.

I have several people in my life that have known me for many years and don't have any clue about my temper or my bad side, and that's because those people are always easy going and fun loving with me 99% of the time. :smthumbup:


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## EnjoliWoman

But just because the easy-going segment doesn't spark your temper doesn't mean you don't have one. There will be times your significant other (current or otherwise) will try your patience. Friends, employers, etc. will - it's the way of life. Life and relationships are not without conflict. Wouldn't it make sense to improve that? Surely it would have positive impact in lots of areas of your life?

In my personal opinion, yelling, screaming and name calling/put downs have no place in adult interaction, especially with someone you have an intimate relationship with. I do not yell at my daughter, boyfriend or anyone else. I am articulate and can speak, listen, consider and respond in a disagreement without doing any of that. I think that has earned me an extra degree of respect from my peers and I think it makes me a better communicator both professionally and personally.


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## Cee Paul

EnjoliWoman said:


> But just because the easy-going segment doesn't spark your temper doesn't mean you don't have one. There will be times your significant other (current or otherwise) will try your patience. Friends, employers, etc. will - it's the way of life. Life and relationships are not without conflict. Wouldn't it make sense to improve that? Surely it would have positive impact in lots of areas of your life?
> 
> In my personal opinion, yelling, screaming and name calling/put downs have no place in adult interaction, especially with someone you have an intimate relationship with. I do not yell at my daughter, boyfriend or anyone else. I am articulate and can speak, listen, consider and respond in a disagreement without doing any of that. I think that has earned me an extra degree of respect from my peers and I think it makes me a better communicator both professionally and personally.


To be totally honest Enjoli in my marriage we BOTH need to be much nicer to each other but we BOTH have very bad tempers, and right now things are just going round and round and we seem to take turns starting crap with each other. And a lot of times when it's me doing it I am conscious and aware of it and usually said to myself afterwards - "damn I should not have said that".


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## arbitrator

Sadly enough, both genders are equally responsible for this! But the circumvision of this unfortunate malady can only be overridden by much more loving and perpetual communication by both parties. All too often, one or the other just throws their hands up in the air and refuses to be a party in trying to offer up viable solutions. 

Sad, but so very true!


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## Cherry

Cee Paul said:


> I have several people in my life that have known me for many years and don't have any clue about my temper or my bad side, and that's because those people are always easy going and fun loving with me 99% of the time. :smthumbup:


I sure hope you don't think I'm being snooty with this response, and this is only me 

BUT no one knew I had a drinking problem, except those closest to me.. my co workers and some other close friends really just thought I was a fun loving drinker.. I was when I was around them . It was those at home and close family members who really knew me and the real problems in my life. 

I hope you figure things out Cee Paul!


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## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> I have several people in my life that have known me for many years and don't have any clue about my temper or my bad side, and that's because those people are always easy going and fun loving with me 99% of the time. :smthumbup:


So...as long as someone is nice to you and doesn't rile you up, you are nice to them. And if they aren't, they deserve what they get?

Where does your wife fall into that?


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## Drover

Cee Paul said:


> That type response I can respect and appreciate, and there are days when you approach me in a friendly manner Cherry and other days you're a total jerk. All I ask is that people stay _consistent_ with me wether that's on here or in face to face everyday life, and I will try my best to do the same.
> 
> I have several people in my life that have known me for many years and don't have any clue about my temper or my bad side, and that's because those people are always easy going and fun loving with me 99% of the time. :smthumbup:


Good luck going through life expecting everyone to treat you with kid gloves.


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## AFEH

Cee Paul said:


> To be totally honest Enjoli in my marriage we BOTH need to be much nicer to each other but we BOTH have very bad tempers, and right now things are just going round and round and we seem to take turns starting crap with each other. And a lot of times when it's me doing it I am conscious and aware of it and usually said to myself afterwards - "damn I should not have said that".


It’s called shet testing.

It’s an exceedingly old and well practiced tradition in marriages. Some people use the shet tests as a way of self improvement, others don’t. You’ve made it exceedingly clear you’re in the latter group.

You don’t only respond to a shet test from your wife with a shet test of your own, very big mistake, you actually initiate the shet testing battles. Another very big mistake.

With your behaviour, attitude and responses you’ll more than likely be on your third marriage by the time you're 50 years old. That is if you can find another woman willing to adopt and care for a man with child like behaviour. And you'll still be complaining about the lack of sex throughout your life when in your 60s.


----------



## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> To be totally honest Enjoli in my marriage we BOTH need to be much nicer to each other but we BOTH have very bad tempers, and right now things are just going round and round and we seem to take turns starting crap with each other. And a lot of times when it's me doing it I am conscious and aware of it and usually said to myself afterwards *- "damn I should not have said that*".


Now, that is where you have the opportunity to change, Cee Paul. That is 100% under YOUR control. 

And, as you keep saying, a person will get better 'stuff' if they are nicer.

So...if you want your wife to be nicer and give you better 'stuff,' then logically you working on your temper will get you that.

Right?

And the one thing I hear over and over by experts is that it only takes ONE of you to be the bigger person and walk away from a conflict. She can't yell at you if you aren't participating. Are you ready to do that? Or do you have to stay in it until you get your point across?


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Cee Paul said:


> To be totally honest Enjoli in my marriage we BOTH need to be much nicer to each other but we BOTH have very bad tempers, and right now things are just going round and round and we seem to take turns starting crap with each other. And a lot of times when it's me doing it I am conscious and aware of it and usually said to myself afterwards - "damn I should not have said that".


One of you has to take the first step to improve your argument style. If you take the steps to learn better disagreement habits, maybe that will take the wind out of her sails and she will go with you. 

It takes a big man to admit he needs help in anything. Be the big man. You'll feel good about being a better you and will take pride in not being a slave to your temper and emotions.


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## EnjoliWoman

turnera said:


> Now, that is where you have the opportunity to change, Cee Paul. That is 100% under YOUR control.
> 
> And, as you keep saying, a person will get better 'stuff' if they are nicer.
> 
> So...if you want your wife to be nicer and give you better 'stuff,' then logically you working on your temper will get you that.
> 
> Right?
> 
> And the one thing I hear over and over by experts is that it only takes ONE of you to be the bigger person and walk away from a conflict. She can't yell at you if you aren't participating. Are you ready to do that? Or do you have to stay in it until you get your point across?


And which is more fulfilling and conducive to a strong marriage - being right or having sex?


----------



## Cee Paul

AFEH said:


> It’s called shet testing.
> 
> It’s an exceedingly old and well practiced tradition in marriages. Some people use the shet tests as a way of self improvement, others don’t. You’ve made it exceedingly clear you’re in the latter group.
> 
> You don’t only respond to a shet test from your wife with a shet test of your own, very big mistake, you actually initiate the shet testing battles. Another very big mistake.
> 
> *With your behaviour, attitude and responses you’ll more than likely be on your third marriage by the time you're 50 years old. That is if you can find another woman willing to adopt and care for a man with child like behaviour. And you'll still be complaining about the lack of sex throughout your life when in your 60s.*


And with your rude attitude I'm willing to bet you are either currently divorced or should be, or you are with a spouse that hates your guts deep down and hides it well.


----------



## Cee Paul

turnera said:


> So...as long as someone is nice to you and doesn't rile you up, you are nice to them. And if they aren't, they deserve what they get?
> 
> Where does your wife fall into that?


That's normally how it works if someone is rude to you repeatedly, unless you are a person that just let's everyone walk all over and take advantage of you. Neither my wife or myself put up with rude behavior from anyone and can go toe to toe with the best of them, and that right there might just be our problem.


----------



## AFEH

Cee Paul said:


> And with your rude attitude I'm willing to bet you are either currently divorced or should be, or you are with a spouse that hates your guts deep down and hides it well.



Me? With my wife for 42 years. As much sex as I ever wanted, any man could ever dream of, home cooked meals every night by a Michelin grade chef, always clean clothing in my wardrobe the list goes on and on. Been separated nearly three years yet she still wears the ring I bought her way back in '72. She must truly hate me.


You can’t even work out why your not getting any sex more than what, once a month?


You’re in a viscous circle all of your own making. You get angry, you don’t get sex. You don’t get sex, you get angry.


You’re like a poor little victim who wont step out of the Karpman drama triangle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and grow up, man up. You’re games of life aren’t working, yet you continue to play them. How stupid is that? That must be the very height of stupidity.


Amazing, you take pot shots at me yet I was married longer than you’ve been on the planet and yet you’re already married twice and even the second time round you’re not getting the sex life you want.

Something’s very wrong in your life and it sure sounds like its not the other people in it.


----------



## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> That's normally how it works if someone is rude to you repeatedly, unless you are a person that just let's everyone walk all over and take advantage of you. Neither my wife or myself put up with rude behavior from anyone and can go toe to toe with the best of them, and that right there might just be our problem.


 You may want to ask yourself what your payoff is. You get an instant gratification from it - boy, I feel good! I sure showed HIM! - but in the long run, you have probably earned a reputation, people may think twice before befriending you or asking you to join them in an outing, a potential boss may ask about you and be told you are very...forceful... and thus give the promotion to someone else...

See where I'm going with this?

Standing up for yourself is wonderful; I urge it on everyone, a LOT. But a wise man will first determine the long-term benefit and pitfalls of doing such, and may reconsider and decide showing someone you're not to be trifled with just isn't worth it, in the scheme of your long-range plans. 

For instance, when DD22 was having trouble with one girl in high school, I told her 'in 2 years, you'll never see her again; in 5 years, you'll be graduating college and she'll be flipping burgers; who'll have the last laugh then?'

And, to bring this full circle, you want sex. She's not giving it. Women, typically, have to be ok with their man to want to give it. If she's NOT giving it, you have about a 80% chance that it's your fault (uh oh, those words!). 

I don't say that to blame you. I say it to open your eyes, TO HELP YOU GET WHAT YOU WANT. If you want her to WANT to have sex with you, stop Love Busting her. It really is that simple. Ask her to fill out the Love Buster questionnaire and read her answers. Understand what you do that upsets her (I'll bet that not being willing to give up in an argument tops the list), and work really hard to STOP doing those things. Chances are high that, if you DO eliminate the LBs, your sex life will become what you want. All because of what YOU do.


----------



## Cee Paul

AFEH said:


> Me? With my wife for 42 years. As much sex as I ever wanted, any man could ever dream of, home cooked meals every night by a Michelin grade chef, always clean clothing in my wardrobe the list goes on and on. Been separated nearly three years yet she still wears the ring I bought her way back in '72. She must truly hate me.
> 
> 
> You can’t even work out why your not getting any sex more than what, once a month?
> 
> 
> You’re in a viscous circle all of your own making. You get angry, you don’t get sex. You don’t get sex, you get angry.
> 
> 
> You’re like a poor little victim who wont step out of the Karpman drama triangle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and grow up, man up. You’re games of life aren’t working, yet you continue to play them. How stupid is that? That must be the very height of stupidity.
> 
> 
> Amazing, you take pot shots at me yet I was married longer than you’ve been on the planet and yet you’re already married twice and even the second time round you’re not getting the sex life you want.
> 
> Something’s very wrong in your life and it sure sounds like its not the other people in it.


The key word you used there is "seperated"; which if you are anything like what you've shown towards me on here does not surprise me one bit, and she was probably planning on doing that years before it ever took place. And I have seen people married 25-35-45 years who are miserable and total jerks to one another, so that means nothing to me in determining what type of person you are offline.


----------



## Cee Paul

turnera said:


> You may want to ask yourself what your payoff is. You get an instant gratification from it - boy, I feel good! I sure showed HIM! - but in the long run, you have probably earned a reputation, people may think twice before befriending you or asking you to join them in an outing, a potential boss may ask about you and be told you are very...forceful... and thus give the promotion to someone else...
> 
> See where I'm going with this?
> 
> Standing up for yourself is wonderful; I urge it on everyone, a LOT. But a wise man will first determine the long-term benefit and pitfalls of doing such, and may reconsider and decide showing someone you're not to be trifled with just isn't worth it, in the scheme of your long-range plans.
> 
> For instance, when DD22 was having trouble with one girl in high school, I told her 'in 2 years, you'll never see her again; in 5 years, you'll be graduating college and she'll be flipping burgers; who'll have the last laugh then?'
> 
> And, to bring this full circle, you want sex. She's not giving it. Women, typically, have to be ok with their man to want to give it. If she's NOT giving it, you have about a 80% chance that it's your fault (uh oh, those words!).
> 
> I don't say that to blame you. I say it to open your eyes, TO HELP YOU GET WHAT YOU WANT. If you want her to WANT to have sex with you, stop Love Busting her. It really is that simple. Ask her to fill out the Love Buster questionnaire and read her answers. Understand what you do that upsets her (I'll bet that not being willing to give up in an argument tops the list), and work really hard to STOP doing those things. Chances are high that, if you DO eliminate the LBs, your sex life will become what you want. All because of what YOU do.


When I was in my childhood and teenage years I was this skinny akward kid who did get walked over a lot of times, and then as I got older - and bigger(6'3 240lbs currently) - and wiser - and a lot more aware of the stuff going on around me; I then started standing up for myself at all times and especially when I think I am right. Now just like Kenny Rogers said in that song "know when to hold em and know when to fold em", I also do that and have figured out when to make a stand and hold my ground and when not to. Buuuuut that is me outside of marriage and that theory I'm finding is a lot harder to do in a relationship, where someone is constantly in front of you and b*tching you out about stuff like the toothpaste or forgetting something at the store.

In other words if let's say it's a neighbor or a co-worker that points out something I did wrong, and I then apologize for it and agree not to do that next time but then they still continue to b*tch at me, I will tell that person to go f*ck themselves in a heartbeat but in a marriage or relationship.............you can't just do that(but yet my wife and I keep doing that back and forth to each other).


----------



## turnera

If you know when to fold 'em, why are you arguing with your wife? Especially when you know she will argue JUST AS MUCH AS YOU DO - guaranteeing that you two are headed in ONLY one direction - away from each other.

Women ***** when they are unhappy. Figure out what she is REALLY unhappy about. Use the Love Buster questionnaire?


----------



## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> And I have seen people married 25-35-45 years* who are miserable and total jerks to one another*, so that means nothing to me in determining what type of person you are offline.


 And that is exactly where YOU are headed.


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## Cee Paul

turnera said:


> And that is exactly where YOU are headed.


Naaaah, because we're either gonna figure out how to get this fixed soon or..........part ways, and I have even told her that many times that's what my plans are if things don't change. I am strong believer in that sometimes you have to go through marriage and divorce a few times before you get it right, because people tend to grow apart for whatever reason and/or change and a lot of times not for the better.


----------



## turnera

Or...they could take advice they ask for and learn and grow and change for the better, and let the _education_ - however they get educated - help them get it right the first time. Especially if kids are involved.


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## Cee Paul

turnera said:


> Or...they could take advice they ask for and learn and grow and change for the better, and let the _education_ - however they get educated - help them get it right the first time. Especially if kids are involved.


No kids here because she's unable to have any and we were in the process of looking into adoption a few years ago, but at this point I think we can both agree it's not a good idea to bring a child into a situation like we're in right now.


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## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> No kids here because she's unable to have any and we were in the process of looking into adoption a few years ago, but at this point I think we can both agree it's not a good idea to bring a child into a situation like we're in right now.


 Can I ask you to do one thing? Will you go back and reread your thread (I know, having to read...), and look at how you respond?

You will find a recurring theme. Every time somone throws out a suggestion, a piece of advice (which you came here for), you come right back with a reason why you won't or can't or it doesn't apply to you.

So I will make a final comment and then bug out, since you obviously aren't interested in making things better: If you remain more interested in proving to _us_ - who don't even know you - why YOUR position is the right one than in actually LOOKING for a solution, you may as well just go get the divorce. Because I guarantee that is what _she_ is thinking about by now.

If you just came here to rant, you should have said so. It would have saved us all a lot of time.


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## Cee Paul

turnera said:


> Can I ask you to do one thing? Will you go back and reread your thread (I know, having to read...), and look at how you respond?
> 
> You will find a recurring theme. Every time somone throws out a suggestion, a piece of advice (which you came here for), you come right back with a reason why you won't or can't or it doesn't apply to you.
> 
> So I will make a final comment and then bug out, since you obviously aren't interested in making things better: If you remain more interested in proving to _us_ - who don't even know you - why YOUR position is the right one than in actually LOOKING for a solution, you may as well just go get the divorce. Because I guarantee that is what _she_ is thinking about by now.
> 
> If you just came here to rant, you should have said so. It would have saved us all a lot of time.


I have said several times in several different threads that I am here mainly to _"vent"_, and also to find people who are going through the same things and can offer up a little moral support maybe. So I'm sorry if I did not make that more clear to everyone.


----------



## hookares

Cee Paul said:


> So if most guys are horny creatures and it doesn't take much to get us in the mood and into the sack anytime or anywhere, and with a lot of women it takes a ton of foreplay and all the stars & planets being aligned to get them in the mood and ready for sex, then WHO'S fault is it mainly(not all)when the sex is cut off and non-existent for 3 months - 6 months - a year in a marriage or relationship??


Let me just say that I fully accept the blame for my marriage's annual attempt at sexual intimacy for the last eight years of our twenty year "marriage".
I should have figured out what was going on after the first year 
and walked away leaving her with the first guy's kid.


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## Cee Paul

hookares said:


> Let me just say that I fully accept the blame for my marriage's annual attempt at sexual intimacy for the last eight years of our twenty year "marriage".
> I should have figured out what was going on after the first year
> and walked away leaving her with the first guy's kid.


I do take the blame for my reactions and meltdowns that has caused her to back away over the past few years; buuuuut - if it were again left upto ME we would've had sex at least 5 or 6 times this year as opposed to only _twice_ in a nine month span(her decision), even with all the fighting going on between us.


----------



## Cherry

Cee Paul said:


> I do take the blame for my reactions and meltdowns that has caused her to back away over the past few years; buuuuut - if it were again left upto ME we would've had sex at least 5 or 6 times this year as opposed to only _twice_ in a nine month span(her decision), even with all the fighting going on between us.


I'm not sure what you don't see wrong with this entire response. You have admitted that your behavior has caused her to back away. Your whole sex issue IS UP TO YOU... You can choose to work on your anger/temper positively...BUT for this marriage, you may have pushed her too far away for letting this continue for so long. And from the sounds of it, you've already written this marriage off.. so really what difference does it make, right?


----------



## DTO

Cee Paul said:


> If I am the _willing_ party and _willing_ to do things to please her to make it nice for the both of us, but because she is still mad about this or that and is usually not in a horny mood no matter what I try, then that is on...................HER. And if things don't change soon then instead of trying to look elsewhere and become a cheating husband(something I'm strongly against), I will just have to move on and start over again somewhere down the road.


Yes, absolutely true.

Someone earlier in this thread said that you are responsible for getting her to say "yes" to a satisfying sex life. This is absolutely wrong - you cannot be responsible for something over which you have zero control. You cannot help if your wife:

1) is using sex as a level of power or control over you.
2) has serious physical or emotional issues but refuses to get professional help.
3) carries baggage (bad teachings on sex like "good girls don't" or having been used for sex before) into your relationship.

All you can do is create an environment conducive to a good sexual relationship. And that (as I said in another thread) is within the context ordinary levels of respect and consideration as a part of everyday life. Good sex should not require dinner and a movie, a vacation, an empty home (kids gone), etc.


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## DTO

AFEH said:


> You’re in a viscous circle all of your own making. You get angry, you don’t get sex. You don’t get sex, you get angry.
> 
> Something’s very wrong in your life and it sure sounds like its not the other people in it.


Both of these are good advice.

I'm not going to beat you up and say that it's 99% your fault or 80% your fault if you don't get the sex you want consistently. There are so many obstacles to your wife being a good sex partner (examples: inability to appropriately deal with everyday life, prior abuse, sexual shame, and insecurities) that you really can't quantify these failures in that manner.

But, getting outwardly angry is not the way to resolve this issue. The issue is not that your expectations are out of line, don't actually have a legitimate expectation of sex, etc. It is that from a practical perspective anger does not achieve the desired result. If she has shame or abuse issues, anger is going to make her defensive. If she is using sex as a weapon, anger shows she is getting to you. It makes you look whiny and weak, which is not appealing.

What you need to do is go on about your business. Make clear your expectation (sex of ABC activities, X # of times per week) and allow her to state what she needs in return. If she outright refuses to engage you ("it will never happen") or makes unreasonable requests ("well, maybe on vacation" or "look at where we live") then do your own thing and stop bugging her.

That accomplishes several things. One, she cannot claim you harass her or use her for sex, removing one commonly-given excuse. Two, you are imposing appropriate consequences for her lack of attention to you. You are simply matching her level
of effort and are not "punishing her", whereas if you continue to serve her even with no sex you are reinforcing bad behavior. Three, you are establishing that you are the prize just as much as her; you have other things going on and act from a position of strength and she is more likely to see you as attractive and worth her time. Four, over the long term you send a signal that the former status quo is no more; she can choose to engage you in a relationship where your needs matter as much as hers, or she can move on.


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## DTO

Drover said:


> No one is saying you should tuck your private parts, etc. But you need to understand that yelling back is_ just as weak_. Calling her names is _just as weak_. Throwing a tantrum is _just as weak_. And she does NOT want you to be weak.
> 
> Being in control of yourself is strong. Calmly telling her that if she's going to yell, you're not going to respond is strong. Stating your feelings one time, and only one time, and then walking away from her argument is strong. Laughing at her tantrum and telling her to knock it off and come back to discuss it when she's ready to do it without yelling is strong.
> 
> It might infuriate her at first. But she'll respect you for it, and she'll learn that if she wants you to listen, she'll have to talk to you with respect. And you have to give her the same respect.


Completely agree, with the benefit of personal experience. I used to get sucked into that yelling game and it never helps. At best it generates resentment and at worst it escalates.

You might have to go beyond the suggestions and take stronger steps without anger to show that you absolutely will not tolerate that from her. A more extreme example: my ex used to LOVE to play the "pregnant princess". I tolerated it the first time but when discussing a second child I warned her that I would not tolerate it again. She tested me one too many times but, rather than get sucked in I simply told her to get her sh!t and get out of my home. Furthermore, I went about my life and waited until she asked me to accept her back home.

Now some would say I was a jerk for doing it while she was pregnant. And, she probably resented it at some level throughout the rest of the marriage (another 7 years). But, she needed to know that the days of blatant disrespect (she chose to unload on me when we had company) were over regardless of circumstances.

My point is, the key is to act from strength. Once she tests (and fails to diminish) your quiet resolve, she will understand that the onus is on her to change and meet you in a place of mutual service. She will either go there or move on, and you win either way.


----------



## DTO

Cee Paul said:


> If it was as simple as that all the marital problems in the world would be solved by tomorrow morning, and my parents who were married for 58 years until my mom passed in 2009 had this same issue for the first 10 years of their marriage according to my dad. And he says that we can work through this and that as he got older he's calmed down a lot(he had a nasty temper and would break stuff when we were growing up), so that does give me some hope for the future. But as far as my wife and my mother go they are two totally and complete opposites; and my mother was always a verrry calm person who rarely raised her voice, while my wife is LOUD and has a pretty filthy mouth and can argue just about anyone under the table.


Nobody is saying it is as simple as that. What we ARE saying is that you are 50% with escalating the situation by stooping to that level yourself (if indeed you are doing so). She cannot argue if you refuse to engage, so refusing to engage is the start. If she still treats you intolerably bad (either through verbal abuse, no sex, whatever) you walk away.


----------



## DTO

Cee Paul said:


> Did you hear that everybody? Those who are not into reading books or don't really enjoy it that much are now hereby ORDERED to start reading by queen Turnera, and if you suffer from ADD - depression - drug addictions - or maybe OCD you are also hereby ordered by her to "STOP IT" right now.


Seriously dude?

Your posts have gone from having our genuine empathy and sympathy, to honest suggestions that you get help, and now to this. What's next - you're going to take your toys and go home?

It really sounds like you just want sympathy and validation. What seems to be lacking here is any genuine desire to drive change in your behavior through getting either expert help or the opinions of admitted amateurs with a great deal of collective experience. You say you want change and admit problems. What are you doing TODAY to drive improvement in your life over the long term? FYI, my ex was exactly this way (sympathy seeking).

With all the sincerity I possess, I give you this piece of advice. If your wife / your marriage is not worth the admittedly hard work you need to do to improve yourself and change the dynamic, be honest with yourself and her. And then, walk away; you'll be doing both of you a huge favor.


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## Cee Paul

Cherry said:


> I'm not sure what you don't see wrong with this entire response. You have admitted that your behavior has caused her to back away. Your whole sex issue IS UP TO YOU... You can choose to work on your anger/temper positively...BUT for this marriage, you may have pushed her too far away for letting this continue for so long. And from the sounds of it, you've already written this marriage off.. so really what difference does it make, right?


You keep forgetting that marriage is a TWO way street and that anything I blame her for can be blamed on me, and anything that I get the blame for can be attributed to her behavior and attitude as well. It's a very vicious cycle that unfortuneatly millions of couples are going through and we're ALL to blame in one form or another.


----------



## DTO

Cee Paul said:


> I appreciate all the feedback so far and just for the record - I am not much of a reader and never have been(takes me 6 months to finish a book), but I appreciate all the book suggestions anyway. And secondly the anger issues I speak of are now at a chemical imbalance stage in my brain that will probably require medication & therapy, so to ask me to simply just turn it off or just stop is like asking someone who suffers from depression to just simply "feel happy", or for someone who has severe A.D.D. to just cut it out and pay attention.


Okay, so you admit you need medication and therapy. When is it going to happen? Do you ever intend to start?


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## Cee Paul

DTO said:


> Okay, so you admit you need medication and therapy. When is it going to happen? Do you ever intend to start?


Wether her and I stay together or not the answer is YES and I do attend to get some help - and soon.


----------



## DTO

AFEH said:


> Someone will fix you with a pill or two if that’s what you want. It’s the easy way but its temporary, stop taking the pills back you go to your old ways.
> 
> The harder and longer but more permanent and life changing way is to change your way of life and how you think about life. For example if you’re a coffee addict then stop drinking coffee (or whatever with caffeine in it) because that will for sure give you your chemical imbalance and put you on edge, sometimes with a hair trigger temper/anger.
> 
> The choice as they say is yours. The pills or changes in lifestyle and how you see life.


I don't think that's fair to Cee Paul. If he has a genuine physical issue then meds might be the long-term solution he needs. Would you tell someone with a chronic condition like arthritis "eh, those painkillers are just a crutch - you need a new outlook on life"?


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## DTO

Drover said:


> Yes, this is retarded. "My marriage is important to me. I'm resentful and don't understand but it's too much trouble to read a book." WTF?


You're right - it is retarded. But it does happen. People do say "I don't see the benefit for me, so why bother?"


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## Cee Paul

DTO said:


> You're right - it is retarded. But it does happen. People do say "I don't see the benefit for me, so why bother?"


I read articles and what not or maybe instructions on how to do something, but to sit there and read a loooooong novel or a 500 page story has never been my cup of tea and I usually get dis-interested and put it down about 1/4 way into it(even with the so called "page turners").


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## DTO

Drover said:


> Went on for over 10 years until I just said enough is enough. And started making changes. I started changing counterproductive communication patterns just like you describe. Started talking from a place of love and wanting to improve things rather than wanting to "win". I stopped getting angry and resentful and being defensive. I stopped arguing and stopped letting her be nasty to me. Our whole dynamic changed pretty quickly once the effort was made.


Absolutely. One note though - there are never any guarantees. I made the same changes and my ex responded positively - for a while. Then she started going downhill again and falling into her old patterns of using me to bolster herself. When it was clear that I was resolute, she told me that the effort to be good to me was not worth the benefit she perceived.

You know what? It really did not matter. The changes I made will endure and I will be better for it - alone or with someone else. THAT is the real reason for change. You have to live this life no matter what - that is the only guarantee.


----------



## DTO

turnera said:


> Don't mistake doing things to please her with actually pleasing her. Do you know her love languages? Mine is taking care of my home. I couldn't care less about jewelry or perfume. But, while my house falls down around me, he continues to buy me jewelry and perfume. And I continue to be unhappy. (and yes, I've told him ad nauseum)
> 
> See, the rub is that HIS LL is cologne and nice clothes. For decades, I'd buy him tools, hoping he'd get off his butt and fix the house. He'd buy me perfume and jewelry. Once I learned about LLs, I stopped buying any tools, started getting him what made HIM happy. And finally, THIS year (after 30+ years and much goading from DD22), he got me a new weedeater for my birthday!


Nice! It took a while, but at least he eventually got it. Try being with someone who says "your LLs are not mine, so they are invalid and you're not getting them".


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## AFEH

DTO said:


> I don't think that's fair to Cee Paul. If he has a genuine physical issue then meds might be the long-term solution he needs. Would you tell someone with a chronic condition like arthritis "eh, those painkillers are just a crutch - you need a new outlook on life"?


He’s not complaining about arthritis.


He is though extensively and bitterly complaining and bemoaning the lack of sex in his life as though complaining and getting angry about it is all of a sudden going to make it all happen for him. Maybe by the time he’s on his 4th or 5th wife he’ll see the error of his ways. By which time of course it will be very much too late and a good sex life will have passed him by.


----------



## Cherry

Cee Paul said:


> You keep forgetting that marriage is a TWO way street and that anything I blame her for can be blamed on me, and anything that I get the blame for can be attributed to her behavior and attitude as well. It's a very vicious cycle that unfortuneatly millions of couples are going through and we're ALL to blame in one form or another.


That's right, except someone has to break the cycle in one way, shape or form unless neither just don't care... And since you're the one complaining and you are the only one you have control over and since you seem to care (I assumed because you made a thread about it, but later in the thread you said you're just here to vent, so I just don't know what's up now).. you've been offered pretty solid advise from people here for attempting to improve your sexual frequency with your wife. And if you truly don't care, and consider this marriage too far gone, you've got some good advise to carry you into your next relationship with a lady friend. I dunno.


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## DTO

AFEH said:


> He’s not complaining about arthritis.
> 
> He is though extensively and bitterly complaining and bemoaning the lack of sex in his life as though complaining and getting angry about it is all of a sudden going to make it all happen for him. Maybe by the time he’s on his 4th or 5th wife he’ll see the error of his ways. By which time of course it will be very much too late and a good sex life will have passed him by.


I'm not talking about the need to improve. I was taking exception to the suggestion that taking medication was a copout for someone who has a legitimate physical disorder.

Sometimes the recommendation to just "suck it up" in appropriate and does not address the root issues. I have a cousin (who's also my good friend) with mental issues and fibromyalgia. I can't see telling him "be a man and power through it."


----------



## DTO

Cee Paul said:


> I read articles and what not or maybe instructions on how to do something, but to sit there and read a loooooong novel or a 500 page story has never been my cup of tea and I usually get dis-interested and put it down about 1/4 way into it (even with the so called "page turners").


Well, nobody said it would not be easy. Here's a genuine (if radical suggestion) approach - expect it to be hard work and approach it accordingly. Even good relationships between well-adjusted people take work.

Would you tell your boss, your teacher / professor, or your kids "that's too much work so I did not do it"? Why would you do so here? If you are going to say "it's not the same" or "I have so much to do", that lack of motivation is a HUGE issue.

Seriously, except for you being a guy and the refused, I could be having this talk with my ex. At some point, I got tired of her excuses as to why she was not working on her behavior and told her she just needed to start taking care of business (she had plenty of time to improve and my patience was exhausted). What will you do when your wife hits you with the same demand?


----------



## MEM2020

DTO, 
I think it is great that you emphasize this theme, because it is true. In a healthy relationship the default mode is a level of sex that the HD partner is at least ok with. 

The classic cake eating posture of the LD spouse goes like this: I am unhappy/ resentful about (long list of items) and because of that I don't want sex. I am however able to have fun with my spouse when we are doing what 'I' want like going out to dinner, and etc.


----------



## AFEH

DTO said:


> I'm not talking about the need to improve. I was taking exception to the suggestion that taking medication was a copout for someone who has a legitimate physical disorder.
> 
> Sometimes the recommendation to just "suck it up" in appropriate and does not address the root issues. I have a cousin (who's also my good friend) with mental issues and fibromyalgia. I can't see telling him "be a man and power through it."


The OP isn't talking of a physical disorder, legitimate or otherwise.


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## Cee Paul

DTO said:


> Well, nobody said it would not be easy. Here's a genuine (if radical suggestion) approach - expect it to be hard work and approach it accordingly. Even good relationships between well-adjusted people take work.
> 
> Would you tell your boss, your teacher / professor, or your kids "that's too much work so I did not do it"? Why would you do so here? If you are going to say "it's not the same" or "I have so much to do", that lack of motivation is a HUGE issue.
> 
> Seriously, except for you being a guy and the refused, I could be having this talk with my ex. At some point, I got tired of her excuses as to why she was not working on her behavior and told her she just needed to start taking care of business (she had plenty of time to improve and my patience was exhausted). What will you do when your wife hits you with the same demand?


I would not directly tell my boss or a professor that I did not put the work in because one can fire me & destroy my income for awhile, and the other can prevent me from getting a valuable degree that would benefit me financially down the road. But in this marriage I am putting in PLENTY of work as far as taking care of food on the table, doing maintenance here and there, and completing my "honey-do" lists the best that I can; but I guess I'm failing in my emotional work because of my temper tantrums and not responding to her exact wants and needs. But to me she is failing badly in that area as well and doesn't seem to care that she is, so guess what - in return I display resentment and anger towards her and once again we're back on that emotional carousel. :banghead:


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## Lyris

Cee Paul said:


> I would not directly tell my boss or a professor that I did not put the work in because one can fire me & destroy my income for awhile, and the other can prevent me from getting a valuable degree that would benefit me financially down the road. But in this marriage I am putting in PLENTY of work as far as taking care of food on the table, doing maintenance here and there, and completing my "honey-do" lists the best that I can; but I guess I'm failing in my emotional work because of my temper tantrums and not responding to her exact wants and needs. But to me she is failing badly in that area as well and doesn't seem to care that she is, so guess what - in return I display resentment and anger towards her and once again we're back on that emotional carousel. :banghead:


Someone's got to step up. Why not you?


----------



## Goldmember357

its both peoples fault

the man for choosing that woman that upsets him

the woman for choosing that man that upsets her

Why complain on what you can so easily change? if your actions had been different.

Women are different than men
Men are different than women.

Do not be shocked by inherent differences between the sexes and they way they conduct themselves. Rather try and understand why things are the way they are.


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## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> I guess I'm failing in my emotional work because of my temper tantrums and not responding to her exact wants and needs. But to me she is failing badly in that area as well and doesn't seem to care that she is, so guess what - in return I display resentment and anger towards her and once again we're back on that emotional carousel. :banghead:


 And yet here you sit, with this wide amount of knowledge at your fingertips, within reach, and you ignore it. :banghead:


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## Cee Paul

Lyris said:


> Someone's got to step up. Why not you?


There are many times that I have and attempted to be a lot more calm and understanding, but then after doing that for a few days with her still screaming at me or being mean I then revert back to doing it back to her after I hit my boiling point.


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## Cee Paul

turnera said:


> And yet here you sit, with this wide amount of knowledge at your fingertips, within reach, and you ignore it. :banghead:


A lot of us have a TON of knowledge on many different things but when it comes to actually _applying_ it...........many of us fail(it's called being "human").


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## Cherry

Cee Paul - do you remember around the time y'alls sex life started waining? What exactly does your wife say (as in, do you mention the lack of sex and how does she respond)? Are you interested in this marriage or is there just too much to fix? Sometimes I think that way about my own marriage, but in our case we have young twins and we really do have a lot going for our relationship and if we can just get it in gear, life will be grand


----------



## Cee Paul

Cherry said:


> Cee Paul - do you remember around the time y'alls sex life started waining? What exactly does your wife say (as in, do you mention the lack of sex and how does she respond)? Are you interested in this marriage or is there just too much to fix? Sometimes I think that way about my own marriage, but in our case we have young twins and we really do have a lot going for our relationship and if we can just get it in gear, life will be grand


From what I can recall it was about 4 years into the marriage when she seemed to start losing interest and shunning me in the bedroom, and it got even worse when I sat down and talked to her & came clean about having a child and I said that I was no longer on board with trying to adopt. She cried and I could tell it broke her heart, but on the flip side of that should you try and adopt if one parent is not "all in" 100% and there's other problems in the marriage that aren't being solved?


----------



## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> A lot of us have a TON of knowledge on many different things but when it comes to actually _applying_ it...........many of us fail(it's called being "human").


 In your case, it seems less like a case of failing or even being human, but rather a case of not choosing to change YOU. You want your wife to change, but you aren't willing to do the same.


----------



## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> From what I can recall it was about 4 years into the marriage when she seemed to start losing interest and shunning me in the bedroom, and it got even worse when I sat down and talked to her & came clean about having a child and I said that I was no longer on board with trying to adopt. She cried and I could tell it broke her heart, but on the flip side of that should you try and adopt if one parent is not "all in" 100% and there's other problems in the marriage that aren't being solved?


 The PEA chemicals that daters feel, that high, euphoria, is what keeps the species going. And it only lasts about 3 years, no longer than 4; then the chemicals are no longer being produced by our bodies. And that 'high' disappears and you're just left with the person you supposedly love.

Women have to be heard, listened to, cared about, to WANT to have sex. It's just how we're wired. So if a man just thinks he can coast and still keep getting the hot sex he was getting while dating, well, it just won't happen.

So she feels like you aren't 'there' for her, you feel like she won't put out enough, and you both retreat to your corners. And BOTH of you end up miserable. Because neither of you will step outside your comfort zone and do something different. It could be out of ignorance - most people don't know all this stuff. But when one of you DOES come to a place like this, learns about all kinds of ways to change things, and then still does nothing...*shrug*


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## Cee Paul

turnera said:


> In your case, it seems less like a case of failing or even being human, but rather a case of not choosing to change YOU. You want your wife to change, but you aren't willing to do the same.


This tells me that you really aren't reading my posts correctly including #189 that I wrote about 15 minutes ago above this one.


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## turnera

Just because she yells at you doesn't mean you give up.


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## Cee Paul

turnera said:


> Just because she yells at you doesn't mean you give up.


I haven't given up; but it's an ongoing battle and unless I completely change who I am and become this fake person that she wants me to be, then it's going to be a struggle.


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## turnera

You don't have to change who you are, CP. Just change what you DO. If you keep doing the same thing and keep getting the same result, what's the point?

I'd be willing to bet that, unless she's bipolar or something, she just wants you to care more. She yells because you didn't turn out to be very supportive, or whatever - it's her frustration. IF you tried to understand HER point of view - if you would both fill out the Love Buster questionnaire to actually get to know each other - you may find you're still both on the same side.


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## Cosmos

Cee Paul said:


> A lot of us have a TON of knowledge on many different things but when it comes to actually _applying_ it...........many of us fail(it's called being "human").


This is true, but nothing changes unless we make it. You have no control over your wife's behaviour, but you DO have control over your own, and this is a good place to start, OP. It can take a lot of self-discipline, but it's my guess you can apply that knowledge if you want to.


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## Cherry

Cee Paul said:


> From what I can recall it was about 4 years into the marriage when she seemed to start losing interest and shunning me in the bedroom, and it got even worse when I sat down and talked to her & came clean about having a child and I said that I was no longer on board with trying to adopt. She cried and I could tell it broke her heart, but on the flip side of that should you try and adopt if one parent is not "all in" 100% and there's other problems in the marriage that aren't being solved?


Then there's much more to this. Has she mentioned children since then? Does it come up in your arguments? I honestly couldn't imagine that kind of delimna in my marriage, and I'm sorry. I imagine she still wants children, does she? I don't think that feeling can just go away.


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## turnera

True. You basically told her 'you're not a good enough wife for me to go to that trouble for.' Kinda hard thing to deal with, IMO.

My H 'stopped' after one kid, and made several comments about why - and they all had to do with me. It's hurt me for the last 20 years.


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## AFEH

Cee Paul said:


> From what I can recall it was about 4 years into the marriage when she seemed to start losing interest and shunning me in the bedroom, and it got even worse when I sat down and talked to her & came clean about having a child and I said that I was no longer on board with trying to adopt. She cried and I could tell it broke her heart, but on the flip side of that should you try and adopt if one parent is not "all in" 100% and there's other problems in the marriage that aren't being solved?


You reneged on your deal with a child, she’s reneged on her deal with sex. Simple. And who can blame her? You’ll probably pay for breaking your contract for as long as you stay together.


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## Cee Paul

Cherry said:


> Then there's much more to this. Has she mentioned children since then? Does it come up in your arguments? I honestly couldn't imagine that kind of delimna in my marriage, and I'm sorry. I imagine she still wants children, does she? I don't think that feeling can just go away.


During some of our heated exchanges she has said that she no longer wants a child with me and that ship has sailed for her, so I take that with a grain of salt but to me a child at this stage is just not a good idea anymore.


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## Cee Paul

AFEH said:


> You reneged on your deal with a child, she’s reneged on her deal with sex. Simple. And who can blame her? You’ll probably pay for breaking your contract for as long as you stay together.


Being punished and denied sex is not gonna fly for very long and we would have to part ways at some point.


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## CanadianGuy

Cee Paul said:


> Being punished and denied sex is not gonna fly for very long and we would have to part ways at some point.


How would you know when you're at that point? What is that point going to look like?


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## Cherry

Cee Paul said:


> During some of our heated exchanges she has said that she no longer wants a child with me and that ship has sailed for her, so I take that with a grain of salt but to me a child at this stage is just not a good idea anymore.


Do you two ever have calm heart to heart discussions? Or have you ever about this issue?


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## turnera

Cee Paul said:


> Being punished and denied sex is not gonna fly for very long and we would have to part ways at some point.


She probably wishes you would, so she could go find a man who WOULD think she's good enough to have kids with.


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## Cee Paul

turnera said:


> She probably wishes you would, so she could go find a man who WOULD think she's good enough to have kids with.


Being "good enough" has nothing to do with it, and you need to read a little more about people's situation before you respond with something snotty as usual.

*Her and I tried like crazy to have a baby the first 3 years of our marriage when I was then 39 and her 33, but she has a condition where she's not able to drop eggs and so she went through a series of painful experiments to try and make it happen. So after that was unsuccessful - painful - and very expensive(most insurances don't cover those procedures), she then decided on her own that it was too much for her to handle and was tired of getting bad news at the end of each painful procedure. Then it was onto trying adoption and we both wanted a certain age(infant to 2 years)and makeup for our child and found that to be quite difficult and also very expensive($500-$700 just to submit an application), so after a few years of trying that route with no success we both backed off of it for about a year. That is the point where I was then into my mid-40's and losing all interest in having and raising a child, and it's also when all the fighting and arguing started over a bunch of different issues. Soooooo - now is here we are and it's not so cut and dry like some of you first thought. *


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## turnera

Cee Paul, nothing is ever cut and dry.

But you continue to make this all about how she won't put out and she yells. And you ignore every attempt to even discuss YOUR side of the equation.

That's fine. That's your perogative. Whatever. Your marriage, if it survives, will never improve. Because you refuse to look at your part in things. Every post you make is about how YOU feel, how put out YOU are, how she hurts YOU. 

I get that she makes you unhappy. But to turn it around, why would a woman be happy with that, either?

Sorry. I keep forgetting you're just here to get people to listen to you gripe.


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## Cee Paul

turnera said:


> Cee Paul, nothing is ever cut and dry.
> 
> But you continue to make this all about how she won't put out and she yells. And you ignore every attempt to even discuss YOUR side of the equation.
> 
> That's fine. That's your perogative. Whatever. Your marriage, if it survives, will never improve. Because you refuse to look at your part in things. Every post you make is about how YOU feel, how put out YOU are, how she hurts YOU.
> 
> I get that she makes you unhappy. But to turn it around, why would a woman be happy with that, either?
> 
> Sorry. I keep forgetting you're just here to get people to listen to you gripe.


I have probably said on here at least THREE HUNDRED times that it's a "two way street" and that "we are BOTH to blame" for all this, so maybe you need to brush up some more on reading my other posts from the past few months.


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## turnera

You can SAY that you are to blame...and yet you want to change nothing. What difference does it make if you admit to something, but nothing changes? And I have read all your posts. Nothing has changed.


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## MEM2020

Cee Paul, 
You can say what you want about the no sex thing being a show stopper but the truth is you had some post about sex twice in 9 months and why couldn't it have been at least 5 times or some super low number like that. Sounds like someone begging for scraps.


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## Cee Paul

MEM11363 said:


> Cee Paul,
> You can say what you want about the no sex thing being a show stopper but the truth is you had some post about sex twice in 9 months and why couldn't it have been at least 5 times or some super low number like that. Sounds like someone begging for scraps.


Oooooh, I guess you told me.


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