# Effort and trickle truth



## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

I'm in a bad mood 

WH and I seperated almost 4 weeks ago. I asked for it - I needed time to work through my feelings by myself, and I had also reached the point where I felt like I had to start pulling out the big guns to show I was no longer going to be a doormat.

Some things have gotten better. I feel like I am being treated with more respect. But there are two big things that stand in the way of R - effort and TT.

He tells me he is willing to do whatever it takes repeatedly. When I give him specific things he can do, he does do them, eventually. For example, I asked him to read the first chapter in a book (20 pages) because it described how I was feeling better than I could myself. He read it - two weeks later when he "had the time". Before D-day, he would have never read the book. Sometimes I feel like I am being unreasonable - that I should look at it as an improvement. Most times I think if he is too busy to take a half hour to make our marriage better, this will never work.

He's a world class trickle truther. Here is a great example of it in a recent text conversation (they were co-workers btw):
M: You said she would call your phone from her phone at work, what would she call about?
WH: Asking if I was mad cause I wasn't looking at her, stuff like that
M: How often would you look at her?
WH: I hardly ever looked at her
M: That doesn't make sense. If you rarely looked at her, why would she notice you weren't?
He then calls and says "I would look at her a few times a day but didn't know how to convey that it writing" :scratchhead: By writing "a few times a day"?? When I said that is an example of TT, he says I am trying to tell him what he can or can't say. WTF?!? I countered by saying if there is a specific answer to a question, and you answer it with an indirect answer I can interpret a million ways, you are not telling the truth. It is so frustrating. :banghead: Does anyone have suggestions on how to stop the TT? I'm going to go crazy.

Sorry so long. End rant.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

Write out your questions. Everything you want to know. Ask him to give you time line facts too. I would get into MC asap. 

~M: You said she would call your phone from her phone at work, what would she call about?
WH: Asking if I was mad cause I wasn't looking at her, stuff like that
M: How often would you look at her?
WH: I hardly ever looked at her
M: That doesn't make sense. If you rarely looked at her, why would she notice you weren't?~

That sounds like OW was trying to get a response out of him like screaming, "Hey look at me!!" Whatever the case may be over the text there is a lot of work he has to do.
Is he NC with OW?


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks Kurosity
I've written down where I feel like he has contricted himself or TTed me, but I haven't gone through it with him yet. I feel like it is a waste of my time until he can understand why TT is going to kill our relationship. I have attempted giving one or two examples to him (like the text I shared) and he denys he is doing it. We are in MC and I have brought it up there a few times but no one seems to get through to him, he thinks he is doing a good job telling the truth. Do you think I should just go ahead with what I have written?

I'm sure that is exactly what the OW was doing. But then comes in the end part of his text "stuff like that". Stuff like when you are going to hook up next? Stuff like you are looking hot today? Whatever it was about doesn't really matter, just tell me the whole truth.

He is NC with her, since D-day as far as I know. She hasn't worked there for 10 months or so.


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## WhoIsIt (Dec 28, 2010)

oregonmom said:


> When I said that is an example of TT, he says I am trying to tell him what he can or can't say. WTF?!? I countered by saying if there is a specific answer to a question, and you answer it with an indirect answer I can interpret a million ways, you are not telling the truth. It is so frustrating. Does anyone have suggestions on how to stop the TT?


I wish I could say there was an easy way to stop it, but in my case I had to settle for being the investigator and pointing out logical flaws. Made me come off as an a**hole a lot of the time, and made her more careful about how she spoke.

To this day, she denies that she TT'd me, but it was classic:


Q: Did you ever see him outside of work?
A: No! Never. We never left the premises.
Q: So you never went to his house or anything? He lived pretty close.
A: Never! I would never do that!

~later~

Q: Did you go to his house on XX/XX? 
A: What?! Why would you ask that? (~classic misdirection, right?~)
Q: According to the phone records you'd called and texted him about an hour before you texted me that you were coming home. You didn't stop by his house after work?
A: ...
Q: Did you?
A: ...yes.
Q: Damnit! I knew it!
A: ...but it was only for few minutes. I just needed to go there to <xyz benign thing>.
Q: ...Did you kiss him there, too?
A: ...
Q: Well?
A: ...Yes.
Q: Damnit!! When are you going to start telling me the truth?
A: But it was just a peck goodbye!
Q: How long were you really there?
A: ...I don't know. Maybe 45 minutes.


TT sucks. The small victory you feel when you catch the lie is nothing compared to the despair of knowing your spouse can lie right to your face--looking you in the eye! And she still has the nerve to wonder why I question things sometimes.


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks whoisit,

I'm sorry you have had to deal with TT too, it really is the worst. I know exactly what you mean about the small victory being crushed knowing how easily they can lie. Your W looks classic too, if it wasn't so painful it would be funny what they think they can get away with. 

I can't see myself being an investigator for the rest of my life. There lies my problem with R.

On the topic of effort, WH just called to see if I was feeling better and to tell me he was going to a movie tonight so he would call our son early. I've been asking him to take me on a date since d-day, he has taken me once. Brought it up in MC two weeks ago, promised he would take me that week or the next. Never has. But has time to go to a movie with friends :slap:


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I was thinking about dealing with the TT and perhaps the real issue isn't the TT,perhaps it's the realization that the problem is you are still even talking to the cheater and still carring what they did. That the only sane and rrasonanle course of action is to leave the cheater high and dry snd divorce them. Not waste anytime trying to R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

Egads, these examples are so frustrating to read. You guys must have the patience of saints.

I agree with Shaggy on this - cheaters have made lying an intrinsic part of themselves. They will not outright tell you _anything_, out of fear of incriminating themselves.

This is why I tend to be biased against reconcile - not only can you _not_ trust a cheater as a result of the betrayal/affair, but you can't trust a cheater because they will never be forward and honest with _anything_ regarding the affair afterwards, unless they're hit with verifiable facts from the get-go.

It's a waste of effort.


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

You're right Shaggy, I am coming to the realization it might not be worth it. I have been willing to consider R because he has done a lot of things right. Gave me no problem about NC letter, STD test, going to regular AA/NA meetings, staying clean, total transparency, set up MC...never has blamed me for the A in any way. He is a good father. I have always believed he is a good man, but his addict is evil. I have wanted to give him a chance to be that good man now that he is sober, for my son more than anything. But I am at my wits end. 

I re-read my thread and was thinking WTF...why would anyone put up with this sh!t?? Time to do some serious thinking...


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

I agree Jibril, always protecting themselves first and their first instinct is to lie. Same with the addict, so I've got the double whammy  H says he is working on stopping but it is hard and he doesn't even realize he does it. I can't even fathom that.

Like I said last post, major thinking to do


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Look, answers like "hardly ever" are subjective. I dissagree that he is TT you with answers like that. If you get an incomplete answer or one open to interpretation, clarify it. But quite frankly, what does it matter whether "hardly ever" is once a day or once an hour? It seems he is cooperating with your request in the recovery. You don't report that he is stonewalling or lying with his responses. You need to decide what it is you want and need from him and then determine whether you are getting it. But, don't drive yourself crazy over inconsequential things.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

oregonmom, I read back through some of your old threads.

Question for you--sorry if I missed this--does your husband still work with the OW?


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

"When I said that is an example of TT, he says I am trying to tell him what he can or can't say. WTF?"
This was the exact statement my STBXH made when he refused to return to MC. That was before I knew about the A, but we were having other issues. When the MC gave him examples of how he was deflecting my concerns, or attempting to negate my pain, he hit the roof. I have no idea if the A was going on at the time or not. Clearly he was in major avoidance mood, but I honestly think he was trying to avoid admitting that his actions caused someone else to be in pain.
It sure sounds like some of the same thing is going on with your H. Lack of candor and avoidance can't possibly make for a meaningful R. Is that what you want?


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

iheartlife - 
They are no longer co-workers, A started March 2011, she was fired in August, d-day February 2012.

KanDo,
I love your name btw, was the slogan for a company I used to work for.

You brought up a good point, and I often think I am being picky and not giving him a fair shake that he is trying. There is a laundry list of things I know he has flat out lied about and things I don't know he has lied about but don't pass the BS meter. When we first went through my questions, I did not have the backbone yet to question his answers too strongly. Now they are driving me crazy and I want to give him a chance to re-answer them but I'm not sure if the time is right yet. 

The biggest lie he has been telling me that I know is untrue is what their text messages and calls were about. He says 95% were about drugs. I can't go back and read them, but I know it's about 50-50. He's not texting her about drugs at 1AM, he's not after he already got them from her earlier in the day, and he's definitely not when he has told me she was out so he had to make a doctors appt to get pills but is still texting her 50 times that day, and 20 minute phone calls are not about drugs either. Does it really matter to me what they are about? No. I would accept the answer "you're right, that was not about pills", but the answer he gives me is "no, that was about pills". He has also told me multiple times he never took off his ring. When I said it was tarnished now, he said he did take it off when they had sex. Said that was conflicting info, he says he just remembered he took it off. 

The red flags I see but have no real proof one way or another:
-They only kissed once at work. This is why I asked him about the work phone calls (which morphed into looking at her). Bad feelings about this.
-That he wore a condom. That is a general red flag on TAM anyway, it is increased by the fact that OW is past her child bearing years and that he said he knew for a fact she was clean. What would be the point in wearing one then?
-That they only had sex once. In a year. Hello common sense. Combined with OW telling me they had sex once but described a different time than WH did and the pattern of texts/calls when I would be out of town. 

I know I am letting the little things get to me because they lead me into these big things. Or are they big things? Am I making mountains out of mole hills and should just be happy he is willing to talk to me about all this??


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

oregonmom said:


> iheartlife -
> The biggest lie he has been telling me that I know is untrue is what their text messages and calls were about. He says 95% were about drugs. I can't go back and read them, but I know it's about 50-50. He's not texting her about drugs at 1AM, he's not after he already got them from her earlier in the day, and he's definitely not when he has told me she was out so he had to make a doctors appt to get pills but is still texting her 50 times that day, and 20 minute phone calls are not about drugs either. Does it really matter to me what they are about? No. I would accept the answer "you're right, that was not about pills", but the answer he gives me is "no, that was about pills".


I would consider this 'small.' He is admitting that he didn't text about pills 100% of the time. But if he was using her in any way for drugs, it seems to me that even if the texting wasn't ostensibly about drugs, the net effect was that he was texting her about drugs.



> he never took of his ring


This is probably a lie, but not a lie that would bother me. I've never asked my husband that question. He was in an inappopriate relationship with another woman, for goodness sake, this is just my opinion but I don't give a fig if we wore his ring or not, it was a massive betrayal regardless and if he took the ring off it was to further a fantasy and a lie, it wasn't about me or the marriage anyhow.



> -They only kissed once at work. This is why I asked him about the work phone calls (which morphed into looking at her). Bad feelings about this.


You know they had sex. Again, I'm not sure why this bothers you. If he wouldn't admit to any sex, that's one thing. But he does, so how much he did or didn't kiss, well again, just my opinion, this wouldn't be something I would be fighting over.



> -That he wore a condom. That is a general red flag on TAM anyway, it is increased by the fact that OW is past her child bearing years and that he said he knew for a fact she was clean. What would be the point in wearing one then?


This is a lie (or not as the case may be) that has serious ramifications for your health. This is a lie to stake your relationship over and I completely agree that your gut feeling about it is likely the truth. The only thing I can think of is that SHE wanted protection from him. Is that farfetched? Perhaps not.




> -That they only had sex once. In a year. Hello common sense. Combined with OW telling me they had sex once but described a different time than WH did and the pattern of texts/calls when I would be out of town.


Very hard to almost impossible to believe, unless by "sex" they mean intercourse when their preferred activity was oral sex. Are they claiming they didn't have opportunities? I agree that this stretched credulity to the limits.




> I know I am letting the little things get to me because they lead me into these big things. Or are they big things? Am I making mountains out of mole hills and should just be happy he is willing to talk to me about all this??


Looking over your thread, some are tiny, some are huge. Get rid of the baggage that the tiny lies carry and focus like a laser beam on the huge stuff.


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks Pluto. It is amazing how many WS statements are exactly the same. My WH says he knows he committed the ultimate betrayal, yada yada yada, but he loses his cool (I say angry, he says annoyed) when I bring this stuff up. He routinely says my feelings are 'ridiculous' or smirks, although this has gotten better after he did it in MC and our MC ripped him a new one.

I see you wrote STBXH, I am guessing for a lot of the same things I am dealing with? When did you know enough was enough? Sorry you are going through the same thing


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Oregonmom,We were dealing with his recurrent major depression in MC which has been a background issue for most of our major and then three years ago the depression became very severe. He's been on meds and in counseling for the last two year, with improvement. Still, I was become resentful over his treatment of the family and the emotional abuse, and his unwillingness to work on the marriage. I learned about his "secret" cellphone and texts. Then our daughter discovered sexting conversations while borrowing his computer. I was trying to convince myself that this was all part of the mental illness and he just wasn't thinking straight. You know, the whole "sickness and in health" vow. Then our younger daughter was holding his cellphone and another text popped up from one of numerous GF to the effect of "of course I still love you and can't wait until U R...." I walked upstairs and said I want a D. There's just been too much pain. He has shown no remorse and believes he had every right to make himself happy. He's tried everything in the world to try to make me think this was my fault, but I am not that stupid. He even blames our daughter for having found the sexting. (that's one relationship that will likely never recover) and if I try to discuss why she is mad at her father, that same irritating tone comes out in his voice that I heard in MC. I'd like to think it is some combination of guilt and shame, but I honestly doubt he's capable of feeling either emotion right now. 

I have to say I never demanded full disclosure, because I knew there was no chance of R. I no longer care about how many women he was with, when did it start, how many dating sites had he been on, where did they meet. He hurt my girls for the last time. Done. I don't want to be with someone who wants to be with someone else. I hope you learn what you need to know to find your peace.


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks iheartlife, you got me looking at the text messages in a different way. I can see how he would relate them to pills even if they weren't directly about pills. That makes sense.

I'm glad you don't think all of the things are small  I would agree that condom and sex are the two biggies for me. OW did not see WH as a predator in any way, and was shocked when I told her he cheated while we were dating 10 years ago with another co-worker (LOL, amazing how she could be shocked). So I do not think she would have insisted, but who really knows. They were talking about intercourse, most of their encounters were bjs at lunch (so I've been told). OW told me sex was a quicky at lunch. I was out of town six times during the A, he told me sex was one of those times, and they were in constant contact the other five times too.

You are right a lot of these things are small and insignificant. I've thought about it, and I think I am holding onto these little lies because they are enforcing in my mind that he is lying about the sex and condoms. I need to go after the big ones and if I feel like I am getting the truth about those it will be easier to let the small stuff go. I've been using the small stuff thinking it would be easier to admit to and I could ease him into the big - but instead I think I am just annoying him. Seeing things more clearly, thank you so much


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

Ugh Pluto, I am so very sorry. It is just sickening to hear how he has acted towards you and your daughters. If my WH was blaming me or especially my son I'd file for D.

The "in sickness and in health" is what gets me sometimes too. His addiction is a sickness, just like your STBXH's depression. I think it comes down to if they are willing to take steps to combat that sickness, or if they are just going to play the martyr and blame-shift. I think my H is somewhere in between. Thank you so much for the well wishes.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

This site is just wonderful...( In it's way of connecting people going through similar situations) so we can know we are not alone. I am going through almost same situation except my H says there was no sex involved.... but I have a hard time believing him. 

I have a list of questions that I don't think he has been honest with me about... I am saving these for if/when we start MC..(just in IC separately right now) .. I'm hoping he will feel more safe with counselor there to come clean.

I want to tell him that I will be more open to R if he will just be honest with me,, but that might depend on what he tells me.. if there was sex, when he has said so many times that there wasn't,, that will probably stop any chance of R. 

He finally admitted that he was getting an "ego boost" from the 2 women,,, because he wasn't getting it from home....yet takes full responsibility for it, and says it was not my fault at all...

He seems to be better at realizing his emotional abuse towards me...(or is just saying what I want to hear)..but I still can't just easily put that to the side... without remembering.

So,,have been separated for 3 months, and I am still no closer for R or D...


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

Numb,
I am so sorry you are going thru the same thing. This place is wonderful to be able to connect with others and realize you are not alone.

Even if there was sex more than once or he didn't use a condom, it wouldn't be a deal breaker to me. Him lying about it is. He does not comprehend that. You are in a really tough place not knowing if he is holding dealbreakers back 

I liken your WH finally admitting to getting an ego boost to my WH finally admitting maybe he didn't mind getting bjs (up until that point he was saying he was basically prostituting himself and how horrible it was :bsflag If only they knew how stupid they sound when they are trying to sell us some of this stuff.

It's not fun to be in limbo, my thoughts are with you.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Why do they not realize its the lying!!!???

Going through something similar...my thread is the	MAJOR trigger thread...

If they would just admit the lying and realize how much that hurts maybe they would learn to quit lying?????

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

oregonmom said:


> Thanks Kurosity
> I've written down where I feel like he has contricted himself or TTed me, but I haven't gone through it with him yet. I feel like it is a waste of my time until he can understand why TT is going to kill our relationship. I have attempted giving one or two examples to him (like the text I shared) and he denys he is doing it. We are in MC and I have brought it up there a few times but no one seems to get through to him, he thinks he is doing a good job telling the truth. Do you think I should just go ahead with what I have written?
> 
> I'm sure that is exactly what the OW was doing. But then comes in the end part of his text "stuff like that". Stuff like when you are going to hook up next? Stuff like you are looking hot today? Whatever it was about doesn't really matter, just tell me the whole truth.
> ...


Sorry it has taken me a while to get back here to you. First you are welcome. I did not read on from your post to me so I hope that I have not missed something new or that I repeat to you what some one else said.

I would explain it to him that the more he says right now the less he will be questioned on later. That the not knowing makes for more questions and lets your mind wonder so that you no longer know what is up and what is down. 
Lying is one's way to protect them selves or another person from emotional issues and or pain. He could be doing both. There is a chance that he is not sure what to say at and wants you to believe what he says when he say it (truth or not) It is hard for the person who broke the trust to understand that it is not in existence anymore from the other person and has to be rebuild (some WS do get that but others want to leave what they did in the past and avoid it like at all coast) I feel that it can take a while for the WS to really understand the depth of destruction done.
I would take any list you have and sit with it for 30 min alone no interruptions and add as much as you can to it. It may seem like he is contradicting himself because of the disjointed questions and the lack of time line. Let him know that you know that the things he is going to tell you are going to hurt you but you need the truth despite that fact so that you can start to heal and figure things out and that Not knowing will kill you even more. Be prepared to loose it if you can get him to sit down and let it out. Prepare him by telling him you are going to react/ cry/looks but you are going to listen too and that you really need this from him. 
Good luck. Keep your chin up


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

vi_bride -
I just read your thread and it sickens me. I am so very sorry. I think you made the right decision to D. I agree he is trying to manipulate you  I have noticed going thru this myself that you don't always realize the amount of emotional abuse you have had - it doesn't seem that bad but after years of it those things become "facts" and we are beat down and feel crazy. My thoughts are with you, stay strong.

Kuriosity-
Thanks again, I have moved forward a little in this thread to just get the two big issues I have out there (sex and condoms) and let the little ones be. Thank you for the other things to say to him, I think those could help a lot. He has told me he is not lying to protect me, but lying to protect himself so he doesn't feel like such a sleeze. I was thinking the best place for this is MC (witnesses)? What I plan to say/ask (please anyone tell me if I am going wrong here):

I am strongly questioning some of the things you have told me. The more you can explain to me right now, the less I will have to question you later and we can start working on rebuilding trust and our marriage. I am prepared for whatever you tell me, and although I might cry or seem crushed, that pain can go away easier than this nagging feeling I have now. This is the most important thing for us to work thru in order for us to be able to R. It is important that you know whatever the truth is, it will not be a deal breaker for me. Feeling like I am being lied to is one tho.
I have a hard time believing that you wore a condom. OW is not of child bearing age and you have claimed you knew she was clean. Those are really the only two reasons to wear one. (Pause for answer)
I believe you had sex more than once. Common sense tells me you did because of the length of your A. But beyond that, she told me you only had sex with a quicky at lunch, very different from your story. You also had babysitters in place and texted/called her extensively everytime I was out of town. (should I have some phone records with me for proof??)

Thank you so much everyone, I finally feel like I have a solid plan in place instead of being so lost.

ETA: What if he tells me he has told me the truth about these things? What should I say? Should I see if our MC steps in? We have both a man and woman in our sessions, she is a bit too touchy-feely for my liking, but he has called out my H on several occasions.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I think bringing it up with an MC is an excellent idea. They will work with you to try to get a truthful answer and will hopefully call him on efforts to avoid answering the question and will spot questionable explanations.

I meant to tell you, that I saw you say that they usually did oral sex, and that explains a lot as to why they supposedly had vaginal sex just once.

Can I ask you why this particular issue matters to you? The condom one I totally get, and if he was literally saying "we only touched private parts once" then I would get that too, but if I understand you correctly, you are arguing over how many BJs vs. how much vaginal sex. Do you think he's lying about the # of face to face meetings, too, or just what type of sex they had when they'd meet?


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

iheartlife-
Why it matters is quite complicated...I'll do my best to explain.

I do have issues with the number of face to face meetings too. He has told me there was a max of 6 sexual encounters. While they were co-workers, he did not go to her house to get pills, she brought them to work for him. Yet he took long lunches to see her at least once a week on her days off. That was from March-August. He told me once she was fired, he would go on Tuesday to get pills (looks true) and sometimes go back later in the week for a sexual encounter. If I take him at his word, and follow his work/phone records, there are at least 20. Probably twice that. 

It also matters because he claims he was prostituting himself. She was giving him pills in return for sexual favors. Yet he also wants me to believe he only had sex that once, never gave her oral sex, and their encounters involved a little kissing and a blow job. So in return for pills she was getting kissed and getting to give a bj? I think I like sex more than most women, and I do enjoy giving a bj...if all I ever got in return was sex once and some kisses, that wouldn't cut it for me. And, the biggest reason I don't believe that, he was touching me differently 

Lastly, it matters because I have been a doormat for such a long time. I feel like if I just blindly accept something that seems so ridiculous, he will still see me as stupid and easily manipulated. I've always let him just feed me bs without standing up for myself, and that is one thing I will not accept any longer in our relationship.

Phew, such a long answer to such a simple question


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

oregonmom said:


> So in return for pills she was getting kissed and getting to give a bj? I think I like sex more than most women, and I do enjoy giving a bj...if all I ever got in return was sex once and some kisses, that wouldn't cut it for me. And, the biggest reason I don't believe that, he was touching me differently


 i hear ya.


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks for the reassurance 

Just realized Monday, our MC day, is the one year mark from the day he admits they had sex. That weekend I had a huge personal accomplishment in the sport I play, and now I will instead remember it for this


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

OregonMom. Only you can decide what is important and what is not. I personally would not let little details drive me crazy. There does seem to be some bigger issues in your case and perhaps a lack of true remorse which is much more concerning.


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

KanDo,
I have read here about true remorse, and I agree that seems to be the issue. He has fullfilled many of the requirements, but not the ones in my thread title.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

oregonmom said:


> I'm in a bad mood
> 
> WH and I seperated almost 4 weeks ago. I asked for it - I needed time to work through my feelings by myself, and I had also reached the point where I felt like I had to start pulling out the big guns to show I was no longer going to be a doormat.
> 
> ...


I know TT sucks the brain out. Owww.
Let the BS realize that TT wont work. Also make BS realize that without complete truth, things are going to get worse. And stick to it.


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## akashNil (May 20, 2012)

oregonmom said:


> Thanks for the reassurance
> 
> Just realized Monday, our MC day, is the one year mark from the day he admits they had sex. That weekend I had a huge personal accomplishment in the sport I play, and now I will instead remember it for this


No. If you believe in religion, you can think that GOD had already had planned a better event for you to remember in that week.


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

akashNil said:


> No. If you believe in religion, you can think that GOD had already had planned a better event for you to remember in that week.


I really needed to hear that, thank you. I am trying to accept God's plan for me and it has been hard, that puts things in a much better perspective.


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

Update: Monday MC

First of all, thank you to all of you for your support and help in talking to my WH about this. All of your advice was great.

I'll start with my WH took me on a date on Saturday. He put a lot of thought into it. He treated me like the way you would treat your new love. I felt special for the first time in a long time. We didn't discuss our problems, just enjoyed eachother's company. It went great.

MC and our discussion after MC went well. I felt prepared thanks to all of you  

He admitted he did not use a condom. He tried to excuse it away as he wasn't sure it would happen, but when I called him on it he admitted he was 99% sure and he had no excuse for not using one. 

He says he can understand why I wouldn't believe they only had sex once, and that he probably wouldn't believe that either if the shoe was on the other foot. He still says intercourse only once, but did expand on a lot of things. He did engage in heavy petting, he did give her oral sex, and they did have plans to have sex whenever I went out of town, but something always ruined those plans (babysitters, a free house, work). I feel much better about this now. This seems plausable. I'm not saying I can accept that quite yet, but fessing up to other things helps.

He also started to admit to some other things. He had always "hated" the encounters, now it is "I enjoyed the act, I hated myself for them". He "never gave a sh!t about her" to now "I considered her my friend, I worried about her mental health". I am starting to think I need to use some patience with him. It's easy for me to remember how much crap I am going through but I do forget he is not just coming out of an affair fog, but also a drug fog. I think more things will come out with time and I may not be able to rush them, they are things he has not yet accepted himself.

One thing concerned me, but maybe this was just a sensitive subject to me and I am over-reacting, so outside perspectives would be helpful. Long story short, we disagree on what is malicious. I define as doing something you know before you do it will cause another person great pain. He defines as doing something JUST to bring that person pain. He does not think what he did was malicious. Obviously, I disagree.

Thanks again!! Don't know what I would do without this place


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

It's good to hear he finally caved on the condom issue. Like we all didn't know the answer to that one 

The only answer I have on the sex issue is, to gently ask him why it's important to stick to just admitting to it once. Just ask in a very loving way. Say, why does it matter when you were intimate so many times anyhow, what's the difference between a BJ and vaginal sex anyway where our marriage is concerned. See what he says to that. If he admits to more vaginal sex because you gave him a safe place to tell the truth, you can't beat him up if he says they had more. Instead I'd just be very sorrowful and hurt (not angry) and explain for the 50,000 time that it isn't about the sex, it's about the LYING.



oregonmom said:


> One thing concerned me, but maybe this was just a sensitive subject to me and I am over-reacting, so outside perspectives would be helpful. Long story short, we disagree on what is malicious. I define as doing something you know before you do it will cause another person great pain. He defines as doing something JUST to bring that person pain. He does not think what he did was malicious. Obviously, I disagree.


The man is addicted to drugs. What is there to admit? He will do anything for a high as long as he is addicted. I know you are struggling to sort out whether he actually liked / loved this woman or not and whether he is hiding behind his drug addiction to protect you from hurting your heart.

Drug addicts and cheaters ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT YOU. That is what he means by it wasn't malicious. So which is worse--he is thinking about you the whole time and laughing his head off as he boffs the OW? Or he isn't thinking about you at all, he is thinking about himself, and you only come into focus when you're around? It is one or the other. Personally I vote navel-gazer to the nth degree, which means he wasn't intentionally malicious. He was just selfish, selfish, selfish. Feel better now?


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestion on the sex issue, I will do this next time we talk. I have tried very hard to make it safe for him to tell the truth, and feel like I did a good job yesterday with the condom issue. I was very calm, used a gentle voice and thanked him for telling the truth. Also made sure I added that while it hurt, I can move forward from that where I wouldn't be able to if he hadn't told me. 

You explain things a lot better than my H lol. He owes you a thank you  I'll bring this up in IC, I think this has to do with my own issues.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

oregonmom said:


> Thanks for the suggestion on the sex issue, I will do this next time we talk. I have tried very hard to make it safe for him to tell the truth, and feel like I did a good job yesterday with the condom issue. I was very calm, used a gentle voice and thanked him for telling the truth. Also made sure I added that while it hurt, I can move forward from that where I wouldn't be able to if he hadn't told me.
> 
> You explain things a lot better than my H lol. He owes you a thank you  I'll bring this up in IC, I think this has to do with my own issues.


Have you ever watched the show Intervention? I've watched nearly every episode. It gives you a tremendous amount of insight into addicts.

The main thing with addicts (and here I'm talking chemical addictions) and whether they recover seems to be whether or not the enablers in their life let them hit rock-bottom. If you've never seen the show, start watching. (I will warn you, skip the parts where they are shooting up, etc., it will make your stomach turn. The bio at the beginning and the last 25 min. of the show are all you really need to watch.)


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

Yes, H and I have watched Intervention for years. It is eye opening. I always yell at the TV at the enablers, yet there I am doing the same thing. About a month before I found out about his A, I actually told him I feel like one of those people I yell at on the show. I've been attending Al-Anon 2-3 times a week since D-day, and it has helped me tons. As a SAHM, I felt trapped and that there was nothing I could do, but I have found plenty of things I am in control of now. Seperating crushed my H, I think by doing that I created his bottom like they talk about in the show. I am trying to live by something shared in one meeting that hit me like a ton of bricks: "All they do is lie to me over and over, they just can't stop lying. Then I realized I am lying. I never follow thru with any of my concequences or threats, and so I am no less of a liar in their eyes than they are in my eyes." It was a reall lightbulb moment for me.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

oregonmom said:


> I am trying to live by something shared in one meeting that hit me like a ton of bricks: "All they do is lie to me over and over, they just can't stop lying. Then I realized I am lying. I never follow thru with any of my concequences or threats, and so I am no less of a liar in their eyes than they are in my eyes." It was a reall lightbulb moment for me.


Words for all BSs to live by.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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