# Like most its a complicated marriage problem



## MisterBilbo (Apr 21, 2012)

Hello. This post could have been posted in a number of categories as their is a lot of relevant history with other categories but intimacy and sex is the major stumbling block in my marriage. This is my 1st post. I will try to keep it brief but I tend to be descriptive so bear with me. I have read several other posts and got a feel but I didn't get any of the abbreviations.

Anyway, my Wife and I have been married for 7 years and together for 11. We got married at a later age than the average couple as I was 35 and she was 36. For both it was our 1st marriage and we each had no children as a lifestyle choice. Right before we got married I was in two car accidents within 3 weeks of each other. I was a Business Exec with a very promising career. The car accidents were serious but appeared to be something that I would recover from. I never did. I ended up needing to have a two level cervical fusion and a 3 levels lumbar fusion. The car accidents exposed a problem with my spine that I wasn't aware of. I have degeneration disc disease and other related issue throught my entire spine. I am in pain everyday but over the years have learned to manage my pain well. Because of the nature of the surgeries, my wife had to take care of me quite a bit. Because I had couplings before I met her (my mom died when I was 14 and my dad was an abusive alcoholic) I had a few serious talks about how taking care of me may seem like the natural loving thing to do but to be careful and talk to me as resentment can build up inside and its healthy to talk about it. My wife is not a good communicator. She just buries everything.

During a 3 year period with two surgeries and a lot of treatment therapies all intimacy went out the window. My surprise ended up being more severe than what was discussed and our lives were upside down. Sex was nearly impossible and I apologized to her so many times. By 2010 my spine was getting more stable and my bouts with pain were less severe and I was doing better. I had drastically cut back on the pain meds needed and I assumed my libido would return. It didn't. I thought it was depression, which I was dealing with in both seeing a therapist and taking cymbalta. Doing my own research and digging into my past with some long, tough soul searching about my libido since my late 20's (there were holes in my sex drive that didn't make sense that I always blamed on stress) I decided to have my testosterone levels checked. Sure enough they were acutely low. They were not in the diagnostic range which is 280-800. My high score was a 81. That explained why even though my heart fluttered when I was close to her, NOTHING HAPPENED. I went on Testosterone replacement therapy and it took about a year to find the right method of delivery and dosage. Once we got there I felt better. My depression eased and I felt like a man.

During this time I had many talks with my wife about taking steps to get back to where we where or at least try. The years gone by had been hard and we we not the spay, have sex spontaneously people anymore. We both gained a little weight. I gained more but she flat out said she had "body image" issues and not to expect her to flip the switch on over night. During one of our conversation she flat out said that she had to "shut off" her libido because of the circumstances. My wife tends to be very black or white. Despite the numerous conversation I initiated where I asked her to talk o me this never came up. I understood though. It was her survival instincts. My situation had just zapped the life out of her and I expressed a desire to take it very slow. She agreed. We are now in 2012 and we have "tried" to have sex once and were like a couple of teenagers fumbling around. We had to stop because she said it hurt. Now by no means am I anything other than average but I would suspect that someone who has switched their libido off means that she wasn't taking care of herself at all.

I have thrown a lot out there. Let me say that I trust my wife. She is just not the type to have an affair. She cant even tell a little white lie. She would leave me then have an affair. We have had a few intense discussions about this COMPLETE lack of intimacy and a pattern has come up. She always agrees to work on it but nothing happens. Well, thats not entirely true. During this testosterone replacement therapy I would get elections if I just though about having sex with her or if I happened to see her naked. My wife has no problem giving me oral sex. At first I thought it would be part of the easing into her getting comfortable with it all. Now its clear that its just a way to make the situation go away.

There is much more to this but this getting long. I can plug some of the holes and answer questions. Obviously we need counselling and I plan to ask her if she is willing. I have to stop typing as my back starting to flair. Just to be clear, this isn't 100% about sex. Intimacy is gone to and I can explain what I mean if need be.

Thank you to anyone who has read this. I did spell check but my tablet has a pretty aggressive auto-correct.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Wow what a tragic story, thanks for sharing.

How intimate are you two out of the bedroom these days? Do you touch each other, hug, kiss. Is there any passion and deep affection out of the bedroom? IMO it's those things that really set the stage for true love making in bed.

Sounds to me that she needs to be reassured, not just in word or a single act but overwhelmingly convinced by your affections and affirmation that you find her beautiful. Take time in your lives to point out the things about her body and personality that you find attractive, those things about her that make your heart skip a beat.

Don't overwhelm her, but a good dose of affection, truthful kind words, and time will hopefully turn things around a bit.


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## clairey83 (Apr 20, 2012)

Ok so I can possibly understand where she is coming from. I have a high sex drive and throughout my relationship we have had relatively regular sex. Regular enough to not have any problems with it. Last may it stopped altogether. When I brought it up I'd get a half hearted effort til it dwindled away again. Now after a long time of me letting him know how unhappy I am he eventually agreed to having his testosterone checked. But he didn't really do it in a hurry, nor did his doctor. So right now he has confirmed very low testosterone but no one seems in any hurry to remedy the situation. 

Now to where I understand your wife's feelings. We kiss every morning before going to work, most evenings when we get in, cuddle on the couch at night and then cuddle in, and kiss goodnight. 
However, more recently, the longer I've had to go without sex, and his lack of urgency to sort things, has made me resentful. I'm cutting out the affection. I feel like I can't do it. I get angry that I don't get what I need from him yet he still gets all the affection and things that he wants from me. And many many times has it occured to me to try to cut out my libido. Or even go to the docs for something. But I just can't coz I'm too selfish. And I just keep hanging on in the hope that it's maybe tonight...which it never is. And then I get frustrated and angry again. It's a vicious circle. 
Hopefully you are still trying to be affectionate with her in all the other parts of your daily life. I don't know how you could fix this but I'd just suggest to stick with it. 
Oh and one other thing, she's maybe feeling insecure. I know I do. And even though you know that the low t is the problem and that it's not you...it still hurts an unbelievable amount  its by far the worst thing I've ever had to experience 
Hope it all works out for you!


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## MisterBilbo (Apr 21, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> Wow what a tragic story, thanks for sharing.
> 
> How intimate are you two out of the bedroom these days? Do you touch each other, hug, kiss. Is there any passion and deep affection out of the bedroom? IMO it's those things that really set the stage for true love making in bed.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind reply. To your question, our intimacy outside the bedroom is only what I start. I try to kiss, touch and caress her and she is OK with it but only to a degree. If I hold her hand she will let me but after a few minutes she gives my hand a squeeze and pulls away. She never is the initiator and this the opposite of how the beginning of our relationship was.

Since my wife has these distorted body image issues I have always, and continue to tell her that I find her immensely beautiful. She complains about her breasts yet they are nearly perfect. I tell her they are amazing. I am never crude or overly laying it on as I think it would sound strange to be constantly talking about it. If she is undressing I tell her how amazing her body is and most of the time its fairly obvious by my "condition". 

I want to add that there are some time issues in our lives. I have insomnia and have had it all my life. Add pain to the mix and sometimes I don't get to sleep until very early in the morning. Since we were in the Mortgage industry when I was working, we saw the bubble and crash coming so we decided to buy her Grandmother's house as it was cheap and it aligned with my wifes promise to take care of her Grandma. When I was still very injured my wife would get up and go have coffee with her Grandma. She would let me sleep. Granny live in a small house in the back. A few years ago as I was getting better I started waking up earlier. I understood the benefits of having coffee with Grandma. It was great bonding between them. As time moved on however, I would be wide awake and expressed a desire to spend some quality time with my Wife occasionally. I didn't ask her to change 180*. I just wanted a day her and there to cuddle in bed or to have coffee ourselves. It was out of the question. I wasn't afforded a day. Last week Grandma was gone and we did get to spend a little while in bed (with the dogs!!) but it felt good, we kinda cuddled and later that day I told her that it meant the world to me to have that time with her. er response was "good, I am glad you feel that way". It came across a bit strange but I am being patient so I didn't say anything to ruin what had took place

Last night I took a late shower and was drying off and I got an errection. I came to bed and just laid down and my Wife noticed. She said "wow, what do we have here and I told her what had crossed my mind. She got up, got between my legs and started. I encouraged her to move over so I could touch her. She said "well that would kinda awkward". She was to far along for me to stop but afterwards I just felt sad. She asked me what was wrong and I told her that I am really trying here and that I cant seem to find anything to turn her on. She didn't even respond.

Let's add that my Wife is very pragmatic. She hates getting flowers as she sees them as waste of money. She would rather have a plant that lives. Finding romantic inspiration is very difficult.

As for you last comment about saying things that make a heart skip a beat. I was once very good at that. I think I still am but if the heart is walled off, what do you do? Conversely, I haven't heard a single word like that from my Wife in years. I ask her if she loves AND is IN LOVE with me and she says yes too both. On one particularly tense day where our conversation about this got heated, I told her that she needed to express and show her love. We don't fight. We both had been there and done that in prior relationships. Honestly when we met it was strangely TOO PERFECT. It was like we new each other for decades and we counted numerous times where we lived or worked close together and never met. This is IN two cities, 100 miles apart. It was just so right. Now I cant get through. If I try to talk to her about it, its always untimely. I give her the opportunity to pick the time and she cant so we end up talking about it and all I get is "I need more time".


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## MisterBilbo (Apr 21, 2012)

clairey83 said:


> Ok so I can possibly understand where she is coming from. I have a high sex drive and throughout my relationship we have had relatively regular sex. Regular enough to not have any problems with it. Last may it stopped altogether. When I brought it up I'd get a half hearted effort til it dwindled away again. Now after a long time of me letting him know how unhappy I am he eventually agreed to having his testosterone checked. But he didn't really do it in a hurry, nor did his doctor. So right now he has confirmed very low testosterone but no one seems in any hurry to remedy the situation.
> 
> Now to where I understand your wife's feelings. We kiss every morning before going to work, most evenings when we get in, cuddle on the couch at night and then cuddle in, and kiss goodnight.
> However, more recently, the longer I've had to go without sex, and his lack of urgency to sort things, has made me resentful. I'm cutting out the affe ction. I feel like I can't do it. I get angry that I don't get what I need from him yet he still gets all the affection and things that he wants from me. And many many times has it occured to me to try to cut out my libido. Or even go to the docs for something. But I just can't coz I'm too selfish. And I just keep hanging on in the hope that it's maybe tonight...which it never is. And then I get frustrated and angry again. It's a vicious circle.
> ...


Wow. Your honesty is amazing. Your words brought me to tears. I am frustrated that I cant get all that I am feeling and what she has said she is feeling down in words fast enough. I have participated in other forums but they were medical or hobby in nature. You were limited in length. Plus I done want to overwhelm anyone.

I mentioned that we did try to have intercourse but it was awkward. We did everything wrong. We jumped in too fast with no foreplay and having to fumble around with a condom which I done think we had ever used because she was on the pill. I made sure to emphasise the positives (That we achieved penetration and became one in a spiritual sense) and that with practice and experience it would come back to us. It was sad to see the switch go off again afterwards. During the last holidays she seemed to be making tremendous grounds and grand overatures. She went online unprovoked and order some adult toys and even got me involved. I was so happy, relieved and proud. A week later they showed up and we looked at them and the interest level seemed to have dimmed. They were put in a drawer and forgotten about by her. Since then I have tried to get her to look inward to see what happened in that whole process where she took it upon herself to do this and then turn off. She really doesn't know why. She isn't a communicator nor is she introspective.

She has stated that she is nervous, feels used and doesn't know what to do. I have suggested that we start from step one. Start kissing and touching and that the passion may come back. I cant slow her down enough to get there. Like I mentioned previously, she is out of bed as fast a possible in the morning even if I am awake and when she gets home (she works 10-7) she is beat. By the time we finish dinner its 8:30-9PM and she gets in bed with the dreaded laptop (Facebook, simple computer games. There is no threat of an outside connection via Facebook, its just a massive time consumer). Its hard to get close to someone with a laptop on them. By 9:45-10PM she is asleep. I usually have to get up and take the laptop off her as she falls asleep with it on her. These are obviously habits that she picked up during my years of surgeries, neck and back braces, potent opiates and muscle decades that turned me into a patient and not a lover. I totally get all of it. However, its be close to two years that I have known about and AGGRESSIVELY sought out the best treatment for low testosterone. I once brought up that its been a long time waiting for her to figure out what is wrong and I was blasted with " You got 4 years so back off". Clearly there is resentment there like I tried to warn her about.

Let me be clear in all of this. I will not give up. I will not take any easy roads out. No divorce and no finding attention elsewhere. I physically couldn't do it. I will, if I have to, reduce my testosterone levels to the safest, lowest levels and see if I can turn off the switch. That way we can happily live on as the roommates we have become. That is, however, the last step. We need therapy and I need to work with her on that.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Sounds like the fallout from those car accidents and the subsequent surgeries really took their tool on things. Sounds like you two never recovered emotionally or reconnected fully.

Well not sure how open she is to the idea, but you two need some MC and some IC (marriage and individual counseling). There's clearly some things that haven't been dealt with. My wife and I have been going through therapy (for totally different reasons), but it's been a great help so far... even just 3 weeks in.

Her self image issues especially concern me, as well as her lack of desire to even hold hands. Now with my wife that often times is because in her mind she's got a list of things she feels like should be working through... and this intimacy thing is getting in the way of that (though she doesn't intend to be mean). Do you think it's possible your wife is doing the same thing?

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you two took a trip together? Maybe a small 3 day weekend. Sometimes time away can make a big difference. It might help reignite some lost passion, but at the very least just some time to really relax and talk.

Since being romantic might prove difficult, perhaps being a practical help to her might be in order. Especially since you have insomnia, perhaps you can use some of those "extra" hours that most of us spend sleeping helping her more. This could be in the form of chores around the house... even little things can get her attention and make her feel loved.

You've both been changed over the years, and I get the impression that neither of you understand where the other is coming from, not completely at least. So in a way it's like dating her all over again, and getting to know the new her.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

You have turned your wife into a servant. I know you realize that, and I know you probably feel bad about it. But I need you to understand two things: One is that it doesn't matter how YOU feel, and the other is that you simply have to lay off....lay ff completely.

(I want to a add a disclaimer here to preface my following explanations. I do understand how you feel, but I don't want to feel like I have to keep apologizing or saying "I understand your plight" after every word I say. So, please don't take my words as harsh and keep in mind I am not being unsympathetic. My focus on your wife and not specifically what you have been through.)

You are the one who has determined and defined her role, not only in her own life but in yours, also. No woman likes that. With you AND her grandmother, she is no more than a caretaker. You ceased to be her husband. 

And now, you want sex and intimacy again defining her role as if you control her on/off switch. You want to turn yourself back into her husband and lover, but that is not possible just because the two of you are married. That's just a piece of paper - the leftovers of a life once was. You cannot expect her to hop-to just because you say it is time. Frankly, I think you are acting incredibly entitled. You feel you have a "wife" so you should be having sex, and practically martyr yourself to the cause of extraordinary patience. 

To make matters worse, you are applying pressure. Whether you say anything or not; whether you ask for sex or not; whether your actions indicate or not; whether you request that she talk about her feelings or not, it is all pressure. Even noticing your erection is pressure. And then comes, "_*its been a long time waiting for her to figure out what is wrong*_." I can't believe you said that. I simply cannot believe it and am trying very hard to find the patience in that statement. I imagine your wife is, too.

She simply does not have any romantic, intimate, or affectionate feelings for you anymore. This is not to hurt your feelings (there I go apologizing) because it's not your fault. It's just the by-product of the circumstances, which I have no doubt you know for yourself. It isn't to say you are not worthy (apologizing again). I am only saying you have to turn yourself into that romantic creature again.

Where the two of you are right now is really very common in marriages and long-term relationships. Men are particularly guilty, and obviously not all have your excuse of a lengthy illness. I do realize you mentioned your wife being practical and disliking flowers. It was your reference to the futility of any such romantic gestures, but romantic gestures is what she needs. If she is so practical a person, then simply don't do those things you know she will not appreciate. You will have to think of other things to do for her. You will have to become creative to make her see you that way again and not the patient.

Stop expecting her and start romancing her. Become the guy she first met. You don't have to re-create any of the old conversations and memories. You have to create brand new ones. Use your memory of those conversations and good times to help you create the same feelings. Go back to favorite places, but find other things to do there. Do some new things and go new places. Find common interests you both can share.

As much as anything and probably more than anything, you have to learn the meaning of uncondiitonal love. So far, you loved your wife with expected conditions even though you don't feel you have. The meaning of her life turned into "because you love me and are married to me, you have to accept what I'm going through and take care of me." No, you did not speak those words, but it is what it is. Additionally, you expect her to become your sexual partner again, but she shouldn't have to live with any expectations at all. That is the meaning of unconditional love - to love your wife with no expectations - that you love her without expecting she loves you back - to do for her without expecting she will reciprocate - that you desire her without expecting sex. All those things would be nice, but you cannot expect her.

This movie and this book that accompanies the movie will help you understand the meaning of unconditional love and will also help you bring the romance back to your marriage. Your wife needs you to do this. Watch the movie some time while she is at work. The book is a 40-day love dare that dares you to be courageous enought to get through the entire 40 days of suggested gestures of love and teaches you to expect nothing in return. However, you are almost guaranteed to achieve the results you seek in the way of romance and intimacy. In the meantime, lay off the testosterone therapy so you can control yourself.


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## clairey83 (Apr 20, 2012)

Ok, I'm not sure what to advise as obviously we're not through the other side of our problems either yet. However I don't agree with lowering your testosterone to control yourself. For the simple reason that I think you should have to suffer it like your wife did. And I'm sorry that sounds harsh but it really is the most awful thing I've ever experienced. And I have to say more than once it's crossed my mind that when my other half gets his sorted out that I should reject him for a bit - just to see how he likes it. I know that's petty but it really is an awful feeling. And it's not just there at bedtime. It's all day. In my case it's all I think of. So I think she might appreciate that you have to feel it too. And as for the practical non romantic side, that's similar to me too. I don't like flowers and really don't like having men spend money on me. I think I have issues or something. It's like I don't want anyone to think I can't pay my own way. So quite often I'd pay for things first or give my share over. I just don't like it. But on occasion I've had things bought for me, given to me where I've not been allowed to refuse. And while I'm still uncomfortable with it, I do like the gesture and think over time I'd get used to it. And recently he did appear with a bunch of flowers for me as he thought I needed cheering up as my gran had just died. And what a difference that made. Although there's been nothing since. And in my case right now I'd much rather get laid than have flowers...but I digress haha
Anyway, my point is. Maybe just try pushing at the romantic stuff. Not bombard her but just enough that she doesn't have the chance to forget one thing before the next comes. And see if she comes to like it, and appreciate your effort. Like someone else said take her away for the weekend, go away for the day or out for dinner. Just makes lots of effort where you are thinking of her. And of course help out around the house. I get mad just now coz mine doesn't do that, but I know if he was sorting me out otherwise, it wouldn't bother me  
I think, just do as much as you can for her without smothering her.


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## MisterBilbo (Apr 21, 2012)

River1977 said:


> You have turned your wife into a servant. I know you realize that, and I know you probably feel bad about it. But I need you to understand two things: One is that it doesn't matter how YOU feel, and the other is that you simply have to lay off....lay ff completely.
> 
> (I want to a add a disclaimer here to preface my following explanations. I do understand how you feel, but I don't want to feel like I have to keep apologizing or saying "I understand your plight" after every word I say. So, please don't take my words as harsh and keep in mind I am not being unsympathetic. My focus on your wife and not specifically what you have been through.)
> 
> ...


Woah, back up the truck. Thank you for the reply but you threw a little too much in there with so little to go on. I have read your post a few times and will seriously take your ideas to heart. You might want to wait until someone has a chance to lay out their story before coming on so strong. I am a brutally honest person and know my role in this relationship and it is I that is trying to resolve it. Did you miss the part where I talked to my wife about having to take care of me and to talk about it or she will bury her feelings and become resentful? I refused to let her care for me with the zeal she did but she absolutely insisted. She has even told me that her prior relationship patterns were to take on those who needed help. We married BEFORE all this went down so she had felt good about breaking the pattern.

I know you are trying to be helpful but hitting so hard when someone has just joined the forum and is working through the issues is not very constructive. No, I am not in denial or this or that. I am just a Man who is looking for support, not validation.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi MisterBilbo ~

I like the idea of dating your wife again - starting over. Ask her out, set up a date, get yourselves dolled up for it, talk, flirt ...  Lather, rinse, repeat. Work over time to rebuild the trust and intimacy, just like you would if you had just started the relationship.

Who says you can't start over? If she's willing to make a go of your marriage, then go for it with all your heart. Show her with your actions that you want the marriage to work, that you want to have intimacy back in it, that you want to start over.

And ... if you try this and there just seems to be too many hurdles standing in the way of success, then consider the two of you going to MC together to work through those hurdles and move them out of the way.

Best wishes.


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## MisterBilbo (Apr 21, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> Hi MisterBilbo ~
> 
> I like the idea of dating your wife again - starting over. Ask her out, set up a date, get yourselves dolled up for it, talk, flirt ...  Lather, rinse, repeat. Work over time to rebuild the trust and intimacy, just like you would if you had just started the relationship.
> 
> ...


You are right on the bulls eye. See we have talked and talked (even did this am) about all the Times we have talked and talked and set out game plans, things each other would like to see worked on. I had gotten to negative. Everything was negative and that was my focus. She was to work on letting her walls down and to realize that the same loving, thoughtful, caring person was there but she needed to WANT TO SEE IT. I went to individual counseling. I went for other reasons like loss of self worth from not working but we spent time on what triggers my negativity and part of it was a Brother who was sucking the life out of me with his issues and how I needed to find other things in my life that gave self worth. I got active in photography, a lifelong hobby. The talk this morning went really well. I slowly set the stage so I could tell her that I have worked hard on my negativity and I asked her how she saw me in this regard. She agreed that I was much better but still had more work to do.I agreed. When I brought up her part she had this look on her face. I don't know if it was guilt or sadness. I asked her about it and she said that she didn't live up to her end. She wasn't overlly apologetic but she was honest. We decided to keep working and she was quite sure she wanted to stay together. 

Part of the problem is that I am not 100% health. I still have medical issues pending. During all this down time I gained weight and it needs to come off. During a work out I tore a groin muscle (we think, it could be back related). So I am perusing the help I need in getting it resolved.

Your date night idea is something we kinda do but its not wanted date night.. I think labeling it date night sets the stage that its her and I. I say that cuz past nights we have planned to go out someone from her work shows up and the intimacy is broken.

Thank you for you excellent idea and kindness. I would post more but I am using a tablet and my arms are getting tired.


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## MisterBilbo (Apr 21, 2012)

clairey83 said:


> Ok, I'm not sure what to advise as obviously we're not through the other side of our problems either yet. However I don't agree with lowering your testosterone to control yourself. For the simple reason that I think you should have to suffer it like your wife did. And I'm sorry that sounds harsh but it really is the most awful thing I've ever experienced. And I have to say more than once it's crossed my mind that when my other half gets his sorted out that I should reject him for a bit - just to see how he likes it. I know that's petty but it really is an awful feeling. And it's not just there at bedtime. It's all day. In my case it's all I think of. So I think she might appreciate that you have to feel it too. And as for the practical non romantic side, that's similar to me too. I don't like flowers and really don't like having men spend money on me. I think I have issues or something. It's like I don't want anyone to think I can't pay my own way. So quite often I'd pay for things first or give my share over. I just don't like it. But on occasion I've had things bought for me, given to me where I've not been allowed to refuse. And while I'm still uncomfortable with it, I do like the gesture and think over time I'd get used to it. And recently he did appear with a bunch of flowers for me as he thought I needed cheering up as my gran had just died. And what a difference that made. Although there's been nothing since. And in my case right now I'd much rather get laid than have flowers...but I digress haha
> Anyway, my point is. Maybe just try pushing at the romantic stuff. Not bombard her but just enough that she doesn't have the chance to forget one thing before the next comes. And see if she comes to like it, and appreciate your effort. Like someone else said take her away for the weekend, go away for the day or out for dinner. Just makes lots of effort where you are thinking of her. And of course help out around the house. I get mad just now coz mine doesn't do that, but I know if he was sorting me out otherwise, it wouldn't bother me
> I think, just do as much as you can for her without smothering her.


Clairey83, I have read your posts but just haven't had the time or ability to reply. I really like what you have to say. I think you have my wife's perspective pretty close. I will respond more when I can. Had a rough physical day and don't have my PC hooked up so I am using a tablet, kind of like an iPad but it runs android (the whole smartphone war). Its taxing to hold this puppy up and type on it. 

Thank you for taking the time. I just wanted you to know that I didn't skip your post as its too meaningful and stresses some key issues like torture . I read all of them. Tomorrow I will make it my main priority to reply. I hope you understand.


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