# Postnuptial agreement



## cmh (Jun 16, 2019)

All of these questions are with regards to maximizing enforceability of a postnup.

1. Obviously we’d get the agreement notarized but how necessary are witnesses or attorneys?

2. Is mediation the way to go? Given that in arbitration or court of law a final decision I may disagree with is more binding.

3. My wife and her parents report that she doesn’t have any assets, excluding personal and small household items. Meanwhile I have significantly more (savings, real estate, etc). Is it better to count some of her personal or small household items in the calculations of her assets so it’s less lopsided (otherwise her net worth would be listed as $0) or would it not matter in influencing the decision?

4. Anything else I should know? For example, in general, how likely is a postnup like this enforceable in NY? Have I made a big mistake by not doing a prenup? Is my wife likely to get a significant portion of my assets if we divorce despite a postnup where we went the completely independent route of unshared assets/debts (at legalnature.com, this would be selecting options such as separate debts, tenants in common, separate property income, no joint credit card accounts, no spousal support, individual tax filings on separation, not using each spouse’s income for joint household expenses, etc).


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

The first thing you need to do is consult with an attorney about all this. The second thing you need to do is inform your wife that you duped her into marrying you.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

I am just wondering why the worry for post nup now? Didn't you have concerns over your assets prior to marriage? 

As to your question, as long as your wife agrees to terms, you can make your post nup say just about anything. Have you two come to an agreement that you're both satisfied with?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*See a good seasoned lawyer pronto!

At the moment, whether it's a pre or a postnuptial is of little consequence! What really needs to be determined is whether or not it's an enforceable instrument!*


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I don't agree with post-nups or pre-nups. If she is your wife then she owns all that you own. All my worldly goods I thee endow.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Yeah, those are questions for your lawyer. If you are trying to draft this on your own, don’t. Stop trying to get off cheap. Get it done right. 

Next, what has changed that has caused you to want a postnup?


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## SecondWind (May 10, 2019)

Why are you concerned shout a divorce?


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## 20yr (Apr 19, 2019)

In most states a pre-nup or post-nup is enforceable if you can show that both parties entered into it with full understanding and without duress or undue influence. One way to show that is for each party to be represented by their own attorney who reviews the agreement.

Of course, you should always get your own legal advice as state laws may vary.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I don't agree with post-nups or pre-nups. If she is your wife then she owns all that you own. All my worldly goods I thee endow.


BS Diana why in the world she she be entitled to anything that he brought into the marriage...if he is a millionaire before going into the marriage she is not automatically a millionaire....she may be married to a millionaire but at the end of the day she brought no assets into the marriage and should not automatically get it just because she married him.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Lostinthought61 said:


> BS Diana why in the world she she be entitled to anything that he brought into the marriage...if he is a millionaire before going into the marriage she is not automatically a millionaire....she may be married to a millionaire but at the end of the day she brought no assets into the marriage and should not automatically get it just because she married him.


A rather jaded view of marriage methinks. If she uses her body to have kids, they are hers too (not yours, your contribution being a few seconds worth of time and therefore insignificant), should put that in the postnup also. 
Ok I am being facetious but seriously, why bother getting married at all, what does marriage mean to you? Before you start ranting about 'gold diggers' I earned double my H when I met him, gave up a very good career (already in management level in my late twenties and capable of going higher) to support his as a trailing spouse and have kids. Went back to college when they were teenagers and have another career now. My early career supported us financially and gave us enough assets to support his globe-trotting career in the early years while I took care of the kids. He now earns triple what I earn. Would I have signed a pre or postnup in the early days, no way!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Lostinthought61 said:


> BS Diana why in the world she she be entitled to anything that he brought into the marriage...if he is a millionaire before going into the marriage she is not automatically a millionaire....she may be married to a millionaire but at the end of the day she brought no assets into the marriage and should not automatically get it just because she married him.


When I married my husband I had a house and he didn't. Guess what, the house became 'our' home. Both of our home. So what what each brings into the marriage, when you marry, what was yours and theirs becomes ours. If you love you money more than the partner, then remain single.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

OP,

Why would your wife sign a post-nup?

Why are you focusing on this after that ship has sailed, no pre-nup?

Best just give her a divorce and alimony now. 

I'm going to go far out on a limb, and respond as if I was a lady responding to your request:

I'd stand up on a chair, so you and a room full of your friends and family could see me clearly

and give you my middle finger, with loud explanation and expletives and my lawyers number.

Well, maybe that's me responding as a man, taking the woman's side here.

But you get my drift.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

A pre-nup can be essential if you have children from a prior relationship, a business you've built previously, and in several other situations. Sometimes a post-nup is the way to go, perhaps because you neglected to do the pre-nup beforehand, or circumstances have changed in some important way (e.g., a family-owned business becomes very successful, but it would be detrimental to everyone to split it up in case one of the owners divorces a non-participant spouse). 

And here's a scenario that some at TAM may find reasonable even if they don't agree with the idea of such an agreement otherwise. Let's say your spouse cheated, but you decide to attempt reconciliation. You could make a post-nup a condition of trying to do so, if they really want to stay together, whereby they do not profit from their transgression if reconciliation fails and divorce ensues. How many lament that the cheater walks away richer, and suffers no consequence? This could re-balance that equation.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

In that WS and R, I can see the reasonings.

But haven't seen that here, or I missed it.

Barring more justifications, still the middle finger.

😐😐


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

OP, you may not even need a post-nup, and it's difficult to advise without knowing the reasons. If you owned assets prior to marriage, and have not "mingled" them since, then they remain your exclusive property. E.g., if you had a bank account, and did not move the money to a joint account and did not add your spouse as an owner, then she is not entitled to it in a divorce - or even if you die, as long as you have properly designated another beneficiary. Same with investment accounts, retirement accounts you have not funded after marriage, and real estate (even after marriage, as long as you paid any mortgage or other expenses with your own exclusive funds). Work 401k's would be subject to splitting, at least contributions and related gains that occurred after marriage.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> When I married my husband I had a house and he didn't. Guess what, the house became 'our' home. Both of our home. So what what each brings into the marriage, when you marry, what was yours and theirs becomes ours. If you love you money more than the partner, then remain single.


so you are telling me that if you had gotten divorce in let's say the first 5 years, you were okay with splitting the proceeds of the house....giving him 50% of a house he never earned or contributed too.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

aine said:


> A rather jaded view of marriage methinks. If she uses her body to have kids, they are hers too (not yours, your contribution being a few seconds worth of time and therefore insignificant), should put that in the postnup also.
> Ok I am being facetious but seriously, why bother getting married at all, what does marriage mean to you? Before you start ranting about 'gold diggers' I earned double my H when I met him, gave up a very good career (already in management level in my late twenties and capable of going higher) to support his as a trailing spouse and have kids. Went back to college when they were teenagers and have another career now. My early career supported us financially and gave us enough assets to support his globe-trotting career in the early years while I took care of the kids. He now earns triple what I earn. Would I have signed a pre or postnup in the early days, no way!



Fair enough then would it be okay with doing away with alimony as well? if divorce is involved you both go away your separate way 50/50 and no alimony at all.


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## SecondWind (May 10, 2019)

@cmh what did your wife do to illicit your wanting a post-nup?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Why would she sign a post-nup? There has to be something in it for her, some advantage or benefit she would want in a divorce. If her asset situation is like you said, then she would be foolish to sign a post-nup. She would likely do much better in a traditional divorce where the marital assets are split 50/50.

In a pre-nup situation, one of the reasons to sign is because she would want to be married. That would be a benefit to signing. But now she is already married. Sometimes a post-nup is applicable when one person has done something terrible, like an affair, and wants to get back together and will sign anything. But since that's not the case here, there's no reason for her to sign one.

But regardless, if you do the post-nup yourself, it will just be a worthless piece of paper. It's hard to imagine a regular person could create a post-nup that could actually be enforced. I would suspect there would be errors or it would be too one-sided and a judge would throw it out. If go you this path, you would certainly need to hire a lawyer to ensure you had a valid contract.


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## cmh (Jun 16, 2019)

So much for the recommendations to get attorneys. I recommended legal representation to her multiple times, particularly if she wanted to make changes to wording in the default template like she suggested, but she insisted she doesn’t want any lawyers for the postnup, and now doesn’t want to sign it at all. So I guess in divorce we’d be going the traditional route which would probably only be a minor blip to my assets anyway.

I think she may have large debts but fortunately if she does it’s all on her own accounts (not joint), weren’t for marital purposes and she didn’t notify me (she outright answered me, multiple times, she has zero debt) so the chance of me being responsible for these is nil.

Now I gotta juggle whether and when to send the I-864 withdrawal letter out. I’ll wait but it seems she’s pretty close to giving up on the marriage this time. If I receive divorce papers from my wife, I‘m wondering if at that time I still have time to send the I-864 withdrawal letter and get it withdrawn before the divorce finalizes, such that I wouldn’t have to support her via the affidavit indefinitely upon divorce, or if there’s a chance that wouldn’t work and I should send the letter earlier if divorce seems impending.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Have you given your story yet? How long have you been married? How many kids? What's going on in the marriage that is making divorce a possibility?

You should really sit down with an attorney and get the details. It sounds like you're looking for specific info rather than just general advice. Depending on your state, how long you've been married, your net worth before marriage and now, etc. will all matter to these kinds of questions you're asking. Many attorneys will offer a free initial session. You could get many relevant answers for your questions in that session.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Lostinthought61 said:
> 
> 
> > BS Diana why in the world she she be entitled to anything that he brought into the marriage...if he is a millionaire before going into the marriage she is not automatically a millionaire....she may be married to a millionaire but at the end of the day she brought no assets into the marriage and should not automatically get it just because she married him.
> ...


Rolling eyes. That's a completely simplistic view of life, love, and finances. Some people in the world have significant wealth and businesses they are *caretaking* that would be IRRESPONSIBLE not to think of. I know a man who almost had to sell, and lose, a business he and his father had built over a couple of decades because his wife decided to divorce him. He didn't "love money more than his partner." You would be well served to broaden your perspective of the world and of relationships. There are situations you have no grasp of that your blanket proclamations do not apply to.


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