# Is she a victim or am I an a**?



## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

My wife and I perpetually are in conflict about her feelings being hurt. It's endless and exhausting.

She feels like she gets hurt by something I say or do and tells me about it and is seeking validation. Instead of feeling validated, she feels like I am defensive. She doesn't feel heard.

I feel like my wife is a victim. She is hurt all the time, nearly daily at this point, and it feels controlling. It doesn't seem like she wants to be heard; it seems like she wants an admission of guilt, even if I have a different perspective. 

We have been to MC for a long time and the marriage actually started getting better, but with this issue we are completely stuck. Our MC, btw, excels at keeping things fair and making both of us feel heard. She does not call people out. 

When I read about people in similar situations the advice seems to be split depending on whose point of view the poster agrees with. Sometimes the advice is to draw a boundary and stick with it, which would have me telling my wife that I am not responsible for her emotions. On the other hand, the advice from the other point of view is to make sure that she feels heard and validate her no matter what I think about the facts.

What I try to do is listen and reflect, agree with whatever I feel I can agree with, and apologize if I think I did something wrong. I will often say something like sorry I hurt your feelings, I didn't mean it that way. I'm not trying to defend, I'm trying to let her know that I didn't mean to hurt her. 

My wife was raised by a single mom with major MH issues and her dad was absent apart from paying child support. Wife is by her own admission very controlling and type A and has a hard time asking for and accepting help. She has self-diagnosed with PTSD but refuses to see an IC because she says our marriage issues are too draining for her to have the emotional energy to work on herself. 

I was raised by a couple that are still married 50+ years. Dad is a total nice guy and has no boundaries with my mom and no life outside of the marriage and often resents her. Our family was not very emotionally intelligent. I became aware of my own nice guy-ness a couple years ago and have worked hard to learn about caretaking and boundaries, etc. I've seen an IC for a couple years to work on these things, I read a ton of self -help books. I've grown in some places and not in others. 

At this point, I just don't know what to do. Our marriage sucks. There are other issues besides this one, but this one is present all the time. I feel like I am looking over my shoulder to try not to do something that hurts her feelings. I sometimes put in the hard boundary and say, I can't help, and I sometimes say I'm sorry. I can't even tell who is accurate (I don't want to say right or wrong--it's all so subjective). I don't want to hurt her feelings but I also don't think I'm the terrible person she makes me out to be. I'm not sure how to bridge that gap. 

We both work and share child care. My wife is a career woman and a good mom, although she's not the warmest mom, and I see her being the victim with our kids, too (at least that's how it looks to me). She is the one more likely to want to talk about problems and I am the one more eager to move on and make up. I am more reluctant to bring up problems and she has a harder time letting go.

Any advice about validation vs victim? About making her feel heard and having boundaries at the same time? IN a good marriage, how much responsibility does each person have to take care of their own emotions and how much do they expect the other person to take care of them?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

If your wife is "self diagnosed" with PTSD, marriage counseling won't work until she has individual therapy.

You can't run a 3 legged race is you can't run. Make sense? How does she expect marriage counseling to fix her marriage when her PTSD makes her emotionally fragile, perhaps too fragile to do or be anything other than needy? She can't really tend to your needs if she has her own stuff to deal with.

Until she gets therapy for her PTSD you can empathize and show care and concern. She triggers easily, and wants you to apologize; which means she wants you to own her emotional responses. She must own her emotions first.

From your post, it sounds as if she emotes way too much and you feel flooded...because you've been led to believe you are responsible for your wife's happiness. She's not happy, you feel defeated...nasty circle that doesn't end and now you cringe when she needs to emote. 

Your best bet is to use reflective listening. Where you restate what she says inviting her to emote more. You aren't taking responsibility for her feelings, you are simply inviting her to emote, to get them out, to hear, to empathize. Not to fix, not to apologize (in the strictest sense of the word, see below for safer apologizing) and not to alter everything to accommodate and mental health issue that isn't even being treated!


"Honey meeting ran late and I didn't have time to stop at the store and pick up (something nonessential for that moment in time) and I have to get child from care, you're going to have to do it."

Now she's hurt, feels let down, marginalized, ....says whatever she usually says to indicate she's hurt.

"I'm sorry you feel hurt. You feel like I don't care about you?"

-"yes! I asked you to ....and you didn't! That means you don't care "

"You feel like if I don't do what you ask me to do it means I don't care?"

-"you never put me first, you always put work first!"

"You feel like I put work first and you want me to put you first?"


In this reflective listening, you aren't fixing, aren't promising, aren't apologizing...you are allowing her to emote.

Your wife needs individual therapy and I'm shocked the marriage counselor has already suggested this.

But you also need to ask yourself if you can live with this kind of emotional need. This may not work for you. This may not be something you can take on.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Can you give some examples of things she has told you that you hurt her feelings over? Is it always the same thing over and over, or does it run the gamut and could be anything at any time?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

There are two issues here

1. you wife being too sensitive

2. Times when you did actually hurt her, I am sure you are not perfect. Can you recall those times, how did you handle those. Were you dismissive?


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

As far as examples go, it can be anything at any time. Recently we were leaving an appointment and she said that we could have done the appt at home. I said I thought they wanted us to come there to make sure it got done. Then she said 'You could say yes to me some time" and I said, "what are you talking about?" and said that she was hurt I didn't agree with her and say Yes when she made the comment about the appt. This was triggering to me because it was such an innocent comment and I am walking on eggshells, so I was silent for a little while before saying, "well, you're right, I could have said yes." 

Then things were very tense and at home she told me how hurt she was that I couldn't say yes and that when she said something I couldn't just validate her and how I can't handle her emotions, etc. From there we moved into a pretty good fight.

She is hurt sometimes when I don't do something she expected, she is hurt when I don't say something nice and there was an opportunity to do so, she is hurt when I tease her, she has been hurt because I said I would do something by a certain date and three days before the date hadn't done it yet. She was hurt once because I didn't answer the phone for a couple hours. She was hurt when she thought that I was rude to a dinner guest. She gets hurt when our 9 yo son crashes into her and steps on her foot. 

I know that my point of view may not be totally accurate, but to me it feels like she is constantly on the lookout for a way to show that other people are hurting her. It's not just me, although it is mostly me. 

As far as my response goes, sometimes I do a great job, listen and make her feel heard and understood, and it can take a long long time. Sometimes I am defensive. Most of the time I do what I wrote before, I try to listen, reflect, and take responsibility for anything I think I am responsible for.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

I would call you a patient saint for trying, and asking for even more advice. 
The ultimate situation is where you get to just be yourself, and she accepts that as you accept her.
If this is who she wants to be...and isn't interested in being something else, why aren't you doing the same?

"Nothing happens to you when you feel your feelings are hurt. "
Except ones sense of entitlement is offended. 
Long term, my compassion would wane and I might end up asking for the piece of paper that says, in writing, that the world must cater to their wishes to hear only what they want, and they are entitled to put their feelings above the rest of society.
Yes, you are a saint for trying. Good luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

It sounds to me like you're blaming the rocky marriage on her upbringing, and you're convinced that your side of the street is clean because you had more stability growing up and your parents are still together.

That's not going to work.

If she's feeling continually hurt by you, there's something you're doing that is bothering her. It isn't up to you or anyone else to judge whether she should be feeling hurt by what you're doing- it simply bothers her so that's reason enough to figure out what it is and stop doing it.

I don't like to be around people who tease me in ways I don't like, or ignore my calls, or are rude to our guests. I've been around plenty of moms who become exasperated by their child accidentally crashing into them after repeated requests to "please watch where you are going."

Is your wife too sensitive? Possibly. But sensitive people are often highly aware of how others are affected by inconsiderate behavior and often go out of their own way to consider others' feelings. And calling someone "too sensitive" is often the first thing an insensitive person will say, rather than look at their own behavior.

I'd drop the MC- they don't sound very helpful. I don't think your wife needs IC, either. She sounds like she needs you to be more considerate of her feelings. Once you've started doing this, she will be able to give you the benefit of the doubt that even if you do hurt her feelings, you didn't mean to. For now, you need to do whatever you can to stop hurting her.

I'd save the $$$ you're currently spending on MC and buy a $10 book instead titled Lovebusters- you're committing many of the habits that destroy your wife's love for you.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Mr. Man said:


> As far as examples go, it can be anything at any time. Recently we were leaving an appointment and she said that we could have done the appt at home. I said I thought they wanted us to come there to make sure it got done. Then she said 'You could say yes to me some time" and I said, "what are you talking about?" and said that she was hurt I didn't agree with her and say Yes when she made the comment about the appt. This was triggering to me because it was such an innocent comment and I am walking on eggshells, so I was silent for a little while before saying, "well, you're right, I could have said yes."
> 
> Then things were very tense and at home she told me how hurt she was that I couldn't say yes and that when she said something I couldn't just validate her and how I can't handle her emotions, etc. From there we moved into a pretty good fight.
> 
> ...


 What does your marriage counselor and individual counselor say about these issues? Yes, some people are overly sensitive and no matter what you do, you will never please them. Sometimes it is you both being incompatible. Then again it could be your fault. 
Remember, you can be an ass and she can still be playing the victim card.


You are reading books, going to individual counseling and seeing a marriage counselor. So, it sounds like you are owning and accepting your problems your wife needs to do the same.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Mr. Man said:


> As far as examples go, it can be anything at any time. Recently we were leaving an appointment and she said that we could have done the appt at home. I said I thought they wanted us to come there to make sure it got done. Then she said 'You could say yes to me some time" and I said, "what are you talking about?" and said that she was hurt I didn't agree with her and say Yes when she made the comment about the appt. This was triggering to me because it was such an innocent comment and I am walking on eggshells, so I was silent for a little while before saying, "well, you're right, I could have said yes."
> 
> Then things were very tense and at home she told me how hurt she was that I couldn't say yes and that when she said something I couldn't just validate her and how I can't handle her emotions, etc. From there we moved into a pretty good fight.
> 
> ...



Wow, this all does seem pretty over the top. I agree its almost like she is looking for things to whine about... and I say that as a very sensitive person myself. Is she aware that the world does NOT revolve around her and what she wants and expects, I mean seriously... Has she always been this way, or has this developed over time? Have you had anger or control issues in the past that could have made her thin skinned?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MrMan, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., hyper-sensitivity, irrational anger, controlling actions, need for drama, lack of impulse control (e.g., binge spending), double standard, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

I caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and sulking.



> I am walking on eggshells.


If your W is a BPDer (i.e., exhibits strong BPD symptoms), that is exactly how you should be feeling. This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused spouses) is titled, _Stop Walking on Eggshells_.



Mr. Man said:


> She feels like she gets hurt by something I say or do and tells me about it and is seeking validation.


The current theory is that BPDers and narcissists feel invalidated by their parents during childhood and thus spend the rest of their lives seeking validation of their feelings and perceptions. Whereas narcissists seek validation of their false self image of being "The Special One," BPDers seek validation of their false self image of being "The Victim."

This is why a BPDer will remain married to you only as long as you play the role of The Rescuer (as you did during courtship) or that of The Perpetrator (the source of every misfortune). Both of those roles serve to "validate" her false self identity of being The Victim.



> I often think that my wife wants to feel hurt. Considering her family background, I think she feels most comfortable when she's a victim. [Your 12/13/14 post.]


Like I said, the powerful need to be frequently "validated" as The Victim is one of the hallmarks of having strong BPD traits. The primary reason that a BPDer keeps a death grip on that false self image is the BPDer's lack of a strong self identity. It is believed that, due to a trauma in early childhood and/or an inherited predisposition, a BPDer is unable to form a strong, integrated sense of self. The child therefore holds on desperately to the self image of being The Victim.



> I have been a saver my whole life and she has been a spender. [10/29/14 post.]


The lack of impulse control (e.g., binge eating or spending or excessive drug use) is one of the nine defining symptoms for BPD.



> My wife did not listen and say, "OK, you think it's too expensive, what about this?" and try to problem solve.[10/29/14 post.]


If she really does exhibit strong BPD traits, she is not interested in "problem solving" or finding workable compromises with you. Doing so means she gives up a valuable opportunity to "validate" -- yet once again -- her false self identity of being The Victim. This is why, when BPDers are at home with their spouses, they are far more interested in creating drama than finding solutions. Their self identity is at stake. Maintaining it requires frequent "validation" from their spouses.



> When I read about people in similar situations the advice seems to be split.... Sometimes the advice is to draw a boundary and stick with it.... the other point of view is to make sure that she feels heard and validate her no matter what I think about the facts.


These two approaches are not mutually exclusive. You therefore should be doing both. Validating her feelings as being "real" and important to her does not mean you agree that those feelings accurately reflect reality. Nor does it mean that you are willing to sacrifice your own needs by declining to enforce your personal boundaries.



> My wife was raised by a single mom with major MH issues and her dad was absent apart from paying child support.


A recent randomized study of nearly 35,000 American adults found that 70% of the BPDers report they had been abused or abandoned by a parent in childhood. It seems that, in your W's case, she likely was emotionally abused by one disordered parent (her mother) and abandoned by the other (her father). Significantly, most abandoned/abused children do NOT develop BPD. But such trauma in early childhood GREATLY raises the child's risk of doing so.



> I don't think there should be different rules for when I am right or when she is right. [Your 12/13/14 post.]


Well, if you're living with a BPDer, you may as well get used to it. BPDers typically have one set of standards for themselves and another set for everyone else. Moreover, the set applied to themselves will quickly change, depending on how they feel at that moment in time. 

The main reason is that BPDers are too emotionally immature to intellectually challenge the validity of their own intense feelings. Instead, those feelings go unchallenged by their intellect and thus strongly distort and color their perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations.



> I've been starting to wonder if she has PTSD from her pretty awful childhood. [10/31/15 post.]


Having strong BPD traits does not rule out having PTSD too. On the contrary, the folks who develop lifetime BPD are so overly-sensitive and immature that they are at far greater risk of developing PTSD when experiencing a trauma in adolescence or adulthood. A recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults found that about 40% of BPDers develop PTSD at some point in their lives. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

Significantly, both BPD and PTSD are believed to arise from trauma (combined, perhaps, with a genetic predisposition). Generally, the current theory is that, when trauma occurs at age 5 or later, it can produce the behavioral symptoms seen in PTSD. These traits include flashbacks, frightening thoughts, and bad dreams. When the trauma occurs before age 5, however, it generally is far more damaging because it can bring the child's emotional development to a screeching halt. 

The child thus never has the opportunity in childhood to learn how to build a stable self identity, how to control her own emotions, how to do self soothing, how to trust others, how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as "facts," how to avoid black-white thinking by tolerating strong conflicting feelings, and how to be "mindful" (i.e., how to remain focused on the present instead of escaping through daydreams into the past and future). If your W is so immature that she lacks these basic emotional skills (ego defenses, actually), her behavioral symptoms will go far beyond those of PTSD.



> My wife is a career woman.


Being a successful career woman does not rule out having strong BPD traits. The vast majority of BPDers are "high functioning," i.e., they usually get along fine with casual friends, clients, business associates, and total strangers. 

None of those people pose a threat to the BPDer's two fears because there is no close relationship that can be abandoned -- and there is no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment. This is why BPDers typically can be considerate and friendly all day long with casual friends and strangers -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love them. And this is why it is common for HF BPDers to be intelligent, highly skilled people who excel in difficult professions where they are teachers, social workers, actors, surgeons, or scientists.



> She is constantly on the lookout for a way to show that other people are hurting her. It's not just me, although it is mostly me.


As I noted, the fears of high functioning BPDers usually are not triggered by "other people" but, rather, by loved ones. This is not to say, however, that a BPDer's perception of those other folks is not distorted. Due to her emotional immaturity, a BPDer cannot tolerate being consciously aware of strong conflicting feelings toward anyone. Hence, like a young child, a BPDer solves this problem by "splitting off" the conflicting feeling (e.g., love or hate), putting it far out of reach of her conscious mind. 

The result is that a BPDer typically will categorize everyone close to her as white ("with me" or "all good") or black ("against me" or "all bad"). And she will recategorize someone, in just ten seconds, based solely on a minor comment or action. This immature way of perceiving other people at polar extremes is called "black-white thinking." It is a basic ego defense we all rely on heavily throughout childhood.



> We've been married 13 years with a downward trend in the last five to the very negative place we are now. [11/8/15 post.]


MrMan, I've been following your posts for three years now. This statement, which you made 18 months ago, is the reason I've not mentioned BPD to you earlier. If it is accurate -- i.e., if you really did not see many BPD warning signs during the first years of your marriage -- then your wife CANNOT be a BPDer. That is, she cannot be exhibiting a strong and persistent pattern of BPD traits. 

As I noted earlier, a persistent BPD problem typically originates in early childhood and the strong symptoms usually start showing in the early teens. For most BPDers (i.e., those who are HF), the traits will completely disappear during courtship because infatuation holds the BPDer's two fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. The strong BPD traits usually return, however, after about 4 to 6 months when the infatuation starts to fade.

Another reason I've not contacted you earlier is that you make no mention of your W having a strong fear of abandonment, which usually manifests itself in irrational jealousy (e.g., over you looking at another woman) or resentment of your choosing to spend time with friends or family members (which is misperceived as you choosing them over her). Significantly, having a great fear of abandonment is one of the key features of being at the upper end of the BPD spectrum.

I therefore ask whether you saw many instances of strong BPD behavior during the first 8 years of your marriage, starting soon after the wedding? I also ask whether you've seen many warning signs -- throughout your marriage -- that your W has a strong fear of abandonment?



> At this point, I just don't know what to do. Our marriage sucks.


My advice, MrMan, is to see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your children are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD warning signs to see if they seem to apply.

An easy place to start reading is my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most of those red flags sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, MrMan.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr. Man said:


> As far as examples go, it can be anything at any time. Recently we were leaving an appointment and she said that we could have done the appt at home. I said I thought they wanted us to come there to make sure it got done. Then she said 'You could say yes to me some time" and I said, "what are you talking about?" and said that she was hurt I didn't agree with her and say Yes when she made the comment about the appt. This was triggering to me because it was such an innocent comment and I am walking on eggshells, so I was silent for a little while before saying, "well, you're right, I could have said yes."


I'm trying to understand, so I have some questions about the above.

Would you mind sharing what the appointment was for? Doctor? Tax accountant? What?

If whatever needed to be done could have been done from home, how did you end up going to an appointment to do it? 

Do someone at this company call you and ask you and your wife to come in? 

Or did you call them and set up an appointment? Or did your wife call to set it up?

How far in advance was this scheduled?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

It sounds like your wife is hypersensitive and has low self esteem. I am similar to your wife. This is who she is and probably will always be like this so for you to have a good marriage you have to learn how to deal with her sensitivity. And this doesn't mean being controlled.

It seem she needs to be validated, and lifted up by you. She probably doesn't feel respected by you. Just work on complimenting her. 

When it comes her to sensitivity, just be aware what makes her upset and try your best not to do it. If my husband said... I'm sorry I hurt your feelings... that made me so mad because your not apologizing for what you did, and what you did hurt your wife's feelings. 

A lot of people on here will disagree with me and diagnose her. But the reality is, even if she is diagnosed with something doesn't change anything. This is your wife and you need to learn how to get alone with her the best as possible.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Every opportunity you get to say 'yes', take it. It's a bonding experience.

You leave the appointment; wife makes statement; you go on defensive and explain. Alternative: you leave the appointment; wife makes statement; you agree and then state reason. Then you two get to chuckle or whine over how unnecessary it was.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I always hated when my husband defended his behavior after he "apologized". What I learned is that how we apologize we learn when we are young. When my husband was young, he came from super strict parents and when he was wrong he tried to get out of punishment by explaining himself, which worked for some reason. He grew up thinking admitting to being wrong meant that you as a person are wrong, he never saw his parents admit wrong.

I grew up with parents that never punished me unless I lied, or they found something out before I told them. Example... if I told my mom I tried smoking with a friend she didn't punish me because I was honest and forthright. If she found a cigarette in my bag then I would get in trouble. So I grew up with it's ok to be wrong, it's not a big deal. It's wrong to lie and hide things. 

So when I apologize I always say what I did was wrong, no excuse. My husband defends and explains his behavior trying to minimize his wrongness. Or something


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

That sounds exhausting. That would make me want to give up trying.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

See, my take is different. Why wait until after the appointment to bring up "we could have done this from home"? She should have said something before you left. Your answer was appropriate. I'm not sure how basically saying "I thought we were supposed to come in" was wrong or how "yes, I'm sorry, you were right" becomes an appropriate response. This is why I asked what your counselors say about this dynamic in your marriage. Tone and contrition is very important. You can't bond with someone you resent. So, if you are constantly saying yes to appease her whims, you will resent her and continue to make the marriage worse. In all honesty, it sounds like you are there already. I am really curious what your two counselors say about both of your behaviors.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

No one said he had to apologize. She made a statement. If the statement was correct, then agree. If not, don't agree. She wasn't accusing him of anything.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> No one said he had to apologize. She made a statement. If the statement was correct, then agree. If not, don't agree. She wasn't accusing him of anything.


I didn't say she was accusing him. I took two examples and chose a different avenue.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

```
It sounds to me like you're blaming the rocky marriage on her upbringing, and you're convinced that your side of the street is clean because you had more stability growing up and your parents are still together.
```
I disagree. I think my post is very fair. If you read my post you will see that I said my parents, although they have had a long marriage, are not emotionally intelligent and my dad shows a lot of resentment towards my mother, and that I also have struggled with nice guy symptoms. Also, of course the background of both of us is important in understanding the dynamic. 


```
What does your marriage counselor and individual counselor say about these issues? Yes, some people are overly sensitive and no matter what you do, you will never please them. Sometimes it is you both being incompatible. Then again it could be your fault. Remember, you can be an ass and she can still be playing the victim card.
```
Our MC excels at being a calm neutral person. She finds things to validate in both of our perspectives and she has helped us a lot to learn to talk calmly about our differences. She taught me to listen, reflect, and the agree with anything that I can, without taking responsibility for things I don't feel I am responsible for. She is an LFMW not a PhD and she does not take sides and call people out. My IC has helped me a lot to learn boundaries and try to stop caretaking.


```
Has she always been this way, or has this developed over time? Have you had anger or control issues in the past that could have made her thin skinned?
```
She has always been like this to some degree, but over time has become more and more focused on the feeling that I'm not validating her and can't cope with her emotions. I think it has become the issue that she feels I need to fix and then our marriage will improve. My wife did some things 7 years ago that made me angry and resentful. I didn't have the skills or awareness (or courage) to address my feelings or triggers back then. She also did not have the skills to talk about her feelings. We both became resentful. As far as control goes--I think she is controlling and she thinks I am controlling. Maybe more accurately, neither one of us feels like we have much control


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

Uptown--

There is a lot in your post and I'm not sure how to reply to all of it right now. But the brief version is that I don't think she's out of the norm for abandonment issues. She's never harassed me about looking at other women--although I don't ogle women in front of her--and I spend time with friends regularly. She does not necessarily like it when I am gone but she doesn't hector me about it or ask me a million questions about what I did and where I went. I think she of course has some abandonment triggers because of her background, and she will admit herself that it's hard for her to trust people and hard for her to ask and accept help. But it doesn't seem like it rises to the level I think you are describing.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

The appt was at our school. I don't think the facts of it are important. It's her perception that I was saying , "you're wrong." I wasn't saying that, I was thinking out loud about why the school had asked us to come in when it could have been done at home. To me it was like, You're right, It could have been done at home, maybe this is why they didn't just have us do it at home. 

When she s hurt, that time and all times, she does not want an apology. She thinks apologies are cheap. She wants me to tell her that her view is correct and to say that I did what she thinks I did. Sometimes she has a narrative about why she thinks I did something and she wants me to validate that. It is not enough to reflect and say I understand you feel that way. She wants me to say, You're right, I shouldn't have done that, I am pushing you away (or whatever her narrative is).

I am resistant to validating her, I have to own that. Because it seems like it fuels her lack of ownership and because I don't feel comfortable validating something I don't think is true. I'm always willing to listen and reflect, but I'm not always willing to tell her I agree with her version of things, and to me, that seems to be the sticking point. She ends up feeling like I don't take responsibility for what I did and I feel like she wants me to take ownership of things I didn't do/think.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Aha, I see a small key...
She wants you to tell her that her view is correct...
Do it. 
Her view is always 100% correct. To HER. It can't possibly be wrong, because it's fabricated by her. It isn't even possible for you to fully see it the way she does. You are not her thoughts.
Get that part? 
Her view of anything and everything is hers, and so is yours. 
Only YOU know what your intentions are behind your actions and communication and really it's none of her business. And vice versa.
You can stop paying attention to what she says she thinks about you and pay attention to your own actions, and hers. 
The need to analyze actions with words? Born out of confusion when the two don't line up. 
Stop talking. Show her who you are. 







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

crocus said:


> Aha, I see a small key...
> She wants you to tell her that her view is correct...
> Do it.
> Her view is always 100% correct. To HER. It can't possibly be wrong, because it's fabricated by her. It isn't even possible for you to fully see it the way she does. You are not her thoughts.
> ...


I understand that her thoughts and feelings are hers and mine, mine. I get the idea that you can't argue with how another person feels or how they perceive the world. I mean, that you can't argue that the way they view the world is the way they view it. My question is how to allow her to have those feelings and validate them while simultaneously maintaining my perception of the world.

Let's take an exaggerated example. Let's say we have some friends for dinner and after they leave she tells me that she is hurt because I embarrassed her. I ask her, what did I do to embarrass you? She says, you stood on your chair and shouted that you hate our guests! In my mind, that never happened. I'm absolutely certain I never did that. She is certain that I did. So, how do you suggest I handle that? Are you saying I should tell her she's correct even though I am certain she is not?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Nope, you absolutely should not agree that she is correct when you know she isn't. Nor should you apologize when you have done nothing.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

It's simple. You do NOT need her validation to maintain your perception of the world. You don't have to do anything. At all. You just think whatever you want to think. 

What's missing is productive feedback. Effective listening. Take time to think about it. 
Everyone is an ass sometimes. If you dismiss everything people say as "that's your opinion " and aren't capable of empathy, you life is limited to your views and nothing else.
How?
"I hear what you are saying. I will give that some thought, and do what works best for me"
Ponder whether you were an ass.
Do what is best for you.
(Alter your behaviour accordingly or not).
Behaviour is actions. You can't solve those issues with your opinions. 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

OK--so I think what you are saying is that when she tells me she's hurt, I should listen (like I do now) but take the extra step of asking questions so that i can think about it afterwards and decide if I agree with her. If I don't agree with her, I shouldn't tell her she's right. Also, I shouldn't expect her to validate my point of view if she disagrees w me. If I think about it and I think she's right, then I can tell her that and apologize. 

I think this is good advice and for me, very difficult. Wife wants validation all the time, even when I disagree, and when I don't validate her she feels unloved and then I feel guilty. So I need to work on that part--not allowing my guilty feelings to get in the way. I've been reading up on the Karpman Drama Triangle and I see us in there all the time. She's the victim, I'm the persecutor, then I feel bad and become the rescuer, but I'm only rescuing to smooth things over so then I'm the victim and feel resentment. That was really helpful for me to look at.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Man said:


> Uptown--
> 
> There is a lot in your post and I'm not sure how to reply to all of it right now. But the brief version is that I don't think she's out of the norm for abandonment issues. She's never harassed me about looking at other women--although I don't ogle women in front of her--and I spend time with friends regularly. She does not necessarily like it when I am gone but she doesn't hector me about it or ask me a million questions about what I did and where I went. I think she of course has some abandonment triggers because of her background, and she will admit herself that it's hard for her to trust people and hard for her to ask and accept help. But it doesn't seem like it rises to the level I think you are describing.


I think the abandonment issue isn't the same as worrying about you with other women. It's a much deeper, core issue/need that permeates everything. Trust, as you say. 

You say you've read a lot of self-help. Anything about BPD?

And have you brought up the sensitivity thing with your MC? That's the best place to address this - in a safe neutral space where you can air your concerns and fears that her 'need' is unsustainable to you.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> Wow, this all does seem pretty over the top. I agree its almost like she is looking for things to whine about... and I say that as a very sensitive person myself. Is she aware that the world does NOT revolve around her and what she wants and expects, I mean seriously... Has she always been this way, or has this developed over time? Have you had anger or control issues in the past that could have made her thin skinned?


I agree. She's way to oversensitive. You will drive yourself crazy trying to apologize for everything she says is an issue. You'll never satisfy her in this respect. I think what she is doing is trying to appear the victim so she can control you.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Mr. Man said:


> OK--so I think what you are saying is that when she tells me she's hurt, I should listen (like I do now) but take the extra step of asking questions so that i can think about it afterwards and decide if I agree with her. If I don't agree with her, I shouldn't tell her she's right. Also, I shouldn't expect her to validate my point of view if she disagrees w me. If I think about it and I think she's right, then I can tell her that and apologize.
> 
> I think this is good advice and for me, very difficult. Wife wants validation all the time, even when I disagree, and when I don't validate her she feels unloved and then I feel guilty. So I need to work on that part--not allowing my guilty feelings to get in the way. I've been reading up on the Karpman Drama Triangle and I see us in there all the time. She's the victim, I'm the persecutor, then I feel bad and become the rescuer, but I'm only rescuing to smooth things over so then I'm the victim and feel resentment. That was really helpful for me to look at.


This all seems to take way too much thinking and time. I feel like a lot of these instances can be resolved with you simply stating "I'm sorry you feel that way". The example you gave of the appointment she felt could have been done at home is a good instance for this. NOTHING about the statement she made to you about the appt needed any validation whatsoever, and your counter statement did not require her pity party retort about you never saying yes or agreeing. Once she said that, a simple "I'm sorry you feel that way" and nothing following it sums it up without you making an actual apology for doing nothing. You cannot be responsible for her butthurt all the time, she is a grown woman who should be able to process things for herself. I think she has some kind of deep seeded issue, and Uptown was likely on the right track. Honestly I dont know how you stick around her with this behavior.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

When I was first married, and wasn't loving being married, I ended up crying a lot. I grew up knowing women cried and men soothed them. So I cried. Hoping that it would get him to do things MY way. He did soothe - for a year or two. And then he just flat out said that he wasn't going to keep bending over backwards every time I cried. 

So I stopped. And found healthier ways to deal with the issues. (at least I tried; wasn't all that successful; but at least I stopped trying to manipulate him)

She is asking you to 'fix' her broken self esteem by constantly praising her, never questioning her, and always agreeing with her. That is unsustainable. 

It's YOU who is going to have to change. "I'm sorry you feel that way" after she tells you that you are being mean. "I hear you but I don't agree" after she tells you that you must do something to appease her.

Stuff like that.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

Turnera and others:

So, that works in your marriage? The wife says I'm hurt, I feel like you don't listen to me, don't care about me," and the husband says, "I'm sorry you feel that way," and the wife is satisfied? 

From what I've read one of the biggest complaints women have with men is not having their feelings validated. Men want to solve, men get defensive. 

My wife doesn't just want to be heard, she wants to be told she's right. Tonight she said to me that she wants to know that I don't think what she is saying is "just my perspective" or "all in my head." 

Saying I'm sorry you feel that way drives her crazy--she feels like it's just a refusal to take responsibility.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Mr. Man said:


> Turnera and others:
> 
> So, that works in your marriage? The wife says I'm hurt, I feel like you don't listen to me, don't care about me," and the husband says, "I'm sorry you feel that way," and the wife is satisfied?


No you use that phrase when she pulls out the bullcrap about stupid stuff, like the the appointment example. Use the phrase to shut it down before she gets on her guilt trip. Surely you can tell a whiny sh!t test from a real issue. If you have done something (valid) that you realize was hurtful, then of course you apologize. 



Mr. Man said:


> My wife doesn't just want to be heard, she wants to be told she's right. Tonight she said to me that she wants to know that I don't think what she is saying is "just my perspective" or "all in my head."
> 
> Saying I'm sorry you feel that way drives her crazy--she feels like it's just a refusal to take responsibility.


Well she ISNT always right, no one is. So why should she get this special treatment? Does she LIKE being lied to? And good that this phrase drives her crazy, keep using it. Maybe it will help get it through her head that not every point she tries to make and every view she expresses is right, and she is not entitled for people to blindly agree with her. 

I get exhausted just reading about what you deal with. I suggest you go back and read Uptown's post again, and maybe do some research, because what you are dealing with is not within the realm of normal.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr. Man said:


> Turnera and others:
> 
> *So, that works in your marriage? The wife says I'm hurt, I feel like you don't listen to me, don't care about me," and the husband says, "I'm sorry you feel that way," and the wife is satisfied? *
> 
> ...


Neither my husband nor I would say that to each other as some sort of conversation ender. Used that way, it sounds dismissive and disrespectful. Can't see how that would deepen a couple's emotional bond. 

If you say it, use it as a conversation starter. _"I am sorry you feel that way. What do you think would make you feel better? Ideally, what would you have preferred I would have said/done?" _

Keep in mind that you are not obliged to agree with her. You are your own person with your own rights. But seeking to understand her can yield great benefits.

I also think it would be good to ask yourself if you can realistically meet your wife's need for validation. If she feels like a bottomless pit of need to you, you two may just need to part ways. Be honest with her about this. 

It sounds like you two are both sensitive. Sometimes marriage seems to work better with one sensitive and one not sensitive person. You two may just not be an ideal pairing.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Mr. Man said:


> Turnera and others:
> 
> So, that works in your marriage? The wife says I'm hurt, I feel like you don't listen to me, don't care about me," and the husband says, "I'm sorry you feel that way," and the wife is satisfied?
> 
> ...


Completely depends on the issue. There is legit and unwarranted validation. One of the funniest is how emotional gets thrown around instead of defensive. Women get just as defensive as men, but the word used is emotional. I learned long ago, emotional for women is the exact same thing as defensive for men. It's my opinion, but a defensive man will shutdown a conversation and create resentment. Same thing happens when a woman becomes emotional. They are both defense mechanisms born of the same acts, but displayed in a different manner.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> No you use that phrase when she pulls out the bullcrap about stupid stuff, like the the appointment example. Use the phrase to shut it down before she gets on her guilt trip. Surely you can tell a whiny sh!t test from a real issue. If you have done something (valid) that you realize was hurtful, then of course you apologize.


So I think this is the core issue. She tells me I'm doing something that hurts her, that is real to her. I don't think I've done anything hurtful. To me she's making a big deal out of nothing and to her I'm ignoring/not validating her real feelings. It's all so subjective--who knows who is right? 

I listen to her and if I think I have done something wrong I apologize. But there is a big gap between the times I think I am doing something wrong and the times she thinks I am doing something wrong. That's the conflict. 

I also really don't think she has BPD. There are too many symptoms she doesn't show--inability to hold a job, inability to have lasting relationships, self-harm, obsessive behavior. It also seems like BPD is shorthand for female behavior that men don't like in a lot of forums. She's already self-diagnosed with PTSD, why make it more complicated than that?


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

jld said:


> Neither my husband nor I would say that to each other as some sort of conversation ender. Used that way, it sounds dismissive and disrespectful. Can't see how that would deepen a couple's emotional bond.
> 
> If you say it, use it as a conversation starter. _"I am sorry you feel that way. What do you think would make you feel better? Ideally, what would you have preferred I would have said/done?" _
> 
> ...


What you are suggesting is, more or less, what I think I am doing right now. When she says she's hurt I listen, I reflect, I take responsibility for things that I agree with, I ask what she needs. I'm sure I don't always do it right, but that's what I aim for. 

I think you make a good point about being able to meet all her validation needs. She does feel like a bottomless need pit. I think things feel differently to her -- she feels like I don't try to meet any of her needs and she's got this big backlog.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr. Man said:


> So I think this is the core issue. She tells me I'm doing something that hurts her, that is real to her. I don't think I've done anything hurtful. To me she's making a big deal out of nothing and to her I'm ignoring/not validating her real feelings. It's all so subjective--who knows who is right?
> 
> I listen to her and if I think I have done something wrong I apologize. But there is a big gap between the times I think I am doing something wrong and the times she thinks I am doing something wrong. That's the conflict.
> 
> I also really don't think she has BPD. There are too many symptoms she doesn't show--inability to hold a job, inability to have lasting relationships, self-harm, obsessive behavior. *It also seems like BPD is shorthand for female behavior that men don't like in a lot of forums. *She's already self-diagnosed with PTSD, why make it more complicated than that?




You are a smart one to catch that, OP.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr. Man said:


> What you are suggesting is, more or less, what I think I am doing right now. When she says she's hurt I listen, I reflect, I take responsibility for things that I agree with, I ask what she needs. I'm sure I don't always do it right, but that's what I aim for.
> 
> I think you make a good point about being able to meet all her validation needs. She does feel like a bottomless need pit. I think things feel differently to her -- she feels like I don't try to meet any of her needs and she's got this big backlog.


Patience. 

How old are your kids, again?


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

jld--

You have this Deida quote in your post:

"One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax." -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man

Although she has never said it like that, I think this is what she is asking for. She wants to have all her feelings and feel like I can handle it. She often says that it feels like her feelings overwhelm me and I can't cope with them. When I don't validate she feels that I can't handle her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr. Man said:


> jld--
> 
> You have this Deida quote in your post:
> 
> ...


Yeah, that is not uncommon.

Some of us women need men stronger than we are in order to feel safe. Validation makes us feel heard and not powerless.

When people feel heard, they tend to calm down. They ideally will feel safe enough to consider the other person's position, too.

You may want to read the book in my signature. You seem like a candidate for _Superior Man._


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Man said:


> Turnera and others:
> 
> So, that works in your marriage? The wife says I'm hurt, I feel like you don't listen to me, don't care about me," and the husband says, "I'm sorry you feel that way," and the wife is satisfied?
> 
> ...


This is because you haven't had the REAL conversation - the IMPORTANT one. The one where you tell her that her insecurity/neediness/whatever is not sustainable and that you love her, but you can't continue to enable her, _because _you love her. That you want her to find her OWN solution to her bottomless need to be right, to be mollified, because if she doesn't, she'll spend the rest of her life miserable and constantly seeking out validation. And that validation has to come from within HER. You can't provide it. Nobody can. It has to come from HER. 

Yeah, that's a scary talk to have. But it's a necessary one. And should be happening in front of the MC.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

turnera said:


> This is because you haven't had the REAL conversation - the IMPORTANT one. The one where you tell her that her insecurity/neediness/whatever is not sustainable and that you love her, but you can't continue to enable her, _because _you love her. That you want her to find her OWN solution to her bottomless need to be right, to be mollified, because if she doesn't, she'll spend the rest of her life miserable and constantly seeking out validation. And that validation has to come from within HER. You can't provide it. Nobody can. It has to come from HER.
> 
> Yeah, that's a scary talk to have. But it's a necessary one. And should be happening in front of the MC.


He can provide a supportive environment while she figures these things out.

And I think that is what he is doing.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

jld--

10 and 14--the kids.

I'm interested in your thoughts on validation. What does that mean to you? Being heard as in reflective listening? Or being told that your your point of view is right and I agree with it? Is there a way for you to feel validated by your spouse when he disagrees with your perspective?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Man said:


> What you are suggesting is, more or less, what I think I am doing right now. When she says she's hurt I listen, I reflect, I take responsibility for things that I agree with, I ask what she needs. I'm sure I don't always do it right, but that's what I aim for.


The problem is that you, yourself, don't seem to have enough self-worth of your own. You're too quick to agree with her, give in, and not even recognize when you're being played. I suspect from a need of your own; or maybe simply inability to know what a man stands for; maybe you never saw it growing up, IDK. 

There's an amazing little book that will help you with this, btw. It's all about the men whose wives expect them to put her on a pedestal and revolve around her, and how to deconstruct that so you have an EQUAL relationship. I highly recommend it. The author also does seminars and coaching that might benefit you, if you have money to throw around. Might change your life.



> I think you make a good point about being able to meet all her validation needs. She does feel like a bottomless need pit. I think things feel differently to her -- she feels like I don't try to meet any of her needs and she's got this big backlog.


That's her severe lack of self esteem. I know a young lady like this. Sweet as can be, but she literally lives her life jumping from one 'show of fantasticness' to the next. She NEEDS to spend $500 on a 1-year-old's birthday party to show she's the best mother ever. She NEEDS to plan an entire week of events to celebrate her own birthday, and if her friends don't show up, she'll spend a month berating them on social media for not being good friends. She NEEDS her H to spend $1000 on an anniversary weekend or he doesn't love her. It never ends. 

She did finally go to a therapist awhile ago, and she has mellowed out a LOT.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Mr. Man--

Be careful not to compare apples and oranges. There is a *world of difference* in dealing with someone who is not emotionally healthy/dysfunctional and someone without deep unhealthiness.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

turnera said:


> This is because you haven't had the REAL conversation - the IMPORTANT one. The one where you tell her that her insecurity/neediness/whatever is not sustainable and that you love her, but you can't continue to enable her, _because _you love her. That you want her to find her OWN solution to her bottomless need to be right, to be mollified, because if she doesn't, she'll spend the rest of her life miserable and constantly seeking out validation. And that validation has to come from within HER. You can't provide it. Nobody can. It has to come from HER.
> 
> Yeah, that's a scary talk to have. But it's a necessary one. And should be happening in front of the MC.


OK--that was really useful. You're saying there's a step I've skipped where I put in a loving boundary. That makes sense to me. I did something like that, but not in a very loving way, a few weeks ago and she really didn't like it. I'll think about that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr. Man said:


> jld--
> 
> 10 and 14--the kids.
> 
> I'm interested in your thoughts on validation. What does that mean to you? Being heard as in reflective listening? Or being told that your your point of view is right and I agree with it? Is there a way for you to feel validated by your spouse when he disagrees with your perspective?


He often does Active Listening. That is helpful. But it has to be sincere and not mechanical.

We had an argument over Christmas. I can't remember what it was about, but I remember how it got resolved. 

We were going back and forth, and I was fed up with trying to explain my point of view. I just did not even feel like discussing it anymore, and started zoning out.

Well, all of a sudden I heard him say something like, "And when I do this, it makes you feel like that. And I do that a lot, which must drive you crazy!"

I perked right up. It felt like such a breakthrough! And it was.

I felt like he was understanding me, really looking through my eyes. It made me feel close to him. His sincere efforts made me feel loved.

We were able to talk through the issue then, and see where each other was coming from. It was resolved, and I felt so good with him. Of course sex--really good, connective sex--naturally followed.

My husband is here on TAM. He is @Duguesclin. He often sees issues differently than most of the men here. 

I think he is so smart, OP. So wise. And that inspires me so much, makes me trust him. I learn from him. 

But I would not feel that way about him if he followed a lot of the common advice given here. We both think a lot of it is unhealthy. You seem to be picking up on that, too.

Does that answer your question?


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Removed/Wrong Thread! Sorry, Mr Man!


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

turnera said:


> The problem is that you, yourself, don't seem to have enough self-worth of your own. You're too quick to agree with her, give in, and not even recognize when you're being played. I suspect from a need of your own; or maybe simply inability to know what a man stands for; maybe you never saw it growing up, IDK.
> 
> There's an amazing little book that will help you with this, btw. It's all about the men whose wives expect them to put her on a pedestal and revolve around her, and how to deconstruct that so you have an EQUAL relationship. I highly recommend it. The author also does seminars and coaching that might benefit you, if you have money to throw around. Might change your life.


My father never disagreed with my mother and didn't have a life apart from her (except for work). His resentments came out in bursts of anger and then vanished. My mother strongly advocated for her kids to always put the other person first in any relationship and to always look at their point of view first. So, as I have figured out after many years, I did not grow up with a healthy male role model, nor did I grow up learning that my thoughts and feelings mattered much.

I discovered No More Mr Nice Guy last year and that has been very helpful to me. I've started spending a lot more time with male friends, I've learned what boundaries are (wish I'd known that years ago!), and I've gotten better at asking for what I want. I still have a long way to go, and I think the issues in my marriage reflect that, but I have also learned a lot. 

My wife is a career woman, we both work, split child care between us. She comes across very type A and confident, although I have figured out that there is a deep insecurity beneath all of her bluster. I'm insecure, but her insecurity reaches a level that I don't think I've ever experienced. She had a pretty ****ty childhood. I was brought up to be a caretaker and it is hard to learn how not to caretake.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Mr. Man said:


> Turnera and others:
> 
> So, that works in your marriage? The wife says I'm hurt, I feel like you don't listen to e, don't care about me," and the husband says, "I'm sorry you feel that way," and the wife is satisfied?


"I'm sorry you feel that way" is a way to shut someone down, unless there is a follow up. It is effective in extreme situations, like infidelity and gaslighting.



> From what I've read one of the biggest complaints women have with men is not having their feelings validated. Men want to solve, men get defensive.
> 
> My wife doesn't just want to be heard, she wants to be told she's right. Tonight she said to me that she wants to know that I don't think what she is saying is "just my perspective" or "all in my head."


She wants to feel heard, which is validation. It's not necessarily asking to be told that she is right- that black and white thinking on your part, IMO. She wants to know that you are trying to understand her and try to understand her perspective. 

"It is just your perspective" is a shut down; "let me see if I can understand your perspective" is an opening. She wants the opening. Most women do. 

I have to say, your wife is trying to communicate with you, which is good! You're in the state of conflict; after that is withdrawal. If you can keep open and even improve your lines of communication, you're going in the right direction, IMO.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

RoseAglow said:


> I'm going to take a different stance here.
> 
> If I asked my husband to watch or hold onto something for me while I was busy doing something else, and he forgot to bring it, then yes, I would be cranky about it. Sure, ultimately it is my responsibility. But I would have asked for his help, and he would have let me down. I can see where she is coming from.
> 
> ...


I get that there are different points of view and nor necessarily a right or wrong. I want to make her feel heard -- I don't want to just blow her off and say that's your problem, deal with it. What I am wrestling with is if she is acting out of the norm, unhealthily needy, unreasonable expectations, playing the victim to avoid being responsible for her own feelings or if I am really missing something, expecting her to be too self-reliant, not giving her a space to be heard and supported. i realize that I'm presenting this as an either/or when it's not, really. I think, frankly, I doubt my own perspective after a lifetime of bending to other people's points of view, so I am looking for some outside thoughts on the way both of us are acting.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

> "I'm sorry you feel that way" is a way to shut someone down, unless there is a follow up. It is effective in extreme situations, like infidelity and gaslighting.


I agree with this. To me, and to my wife, saying I'm sorry you feel that way feels passive aggressive. 



> She wants to feel heard, which is validation. It's not necessarily asking to be told that she is right- that black and white thinking on your part, IMO. She wants to know that you are trying to understand her and try to understand her perspective.


Yes, she wants to be heard and know that I am trying to understand her. I have no problem with that. That seems healthy. However, she does ask to be told that she is right. She will tell me her point of view on something and when I ask her what she needs she will say that she wants to know i don't think it's just her point of view. She will say that she wants me to agree.




> "It is just your perspective" is a shut down; "let me see if I can understand your perspective" is an opening. She wants the opening. Most women do.


I might have this wrong, but I think she wants more than understanding. She wants validation, which to her means, what you are saying/thinking/feeling makes perfect sense to me. 



> I have to say, your wife is trying to communicate with you, which is good! You're in the state of conflict; after that is withdrawal. If you can keep open and even improve your lines of communication, you're going in the right direction, IMO.


This is a years-long, exhausting state of conflict that re-emerges several times a week with different surface facts but always the same underlying conflict--she feels hurt, she tells me, and my response isn't satisfying to her. So then we argue about my response.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Mr. Man said:


> I get that there are different points of view and nor necessarily a right or wrong. I want to make her feel heard -- I don't want to just blow her off and say that's your problem, deal with it. What I am wrestling with is if she is acting out of the norm, unhealthily needy, unreasonable expectations, playing the victim to avoid being responsible for her own feelings or if I am really missing something, expecting her to be too self-reliant, not giving her a space to be heard and supported. i realize that I'm presenting this as an either/or when it's not, really. I think, frankly, I doubt my own perspective after a lifetime of bending to other people's points of view, so I am looking for some outside thoughts on the way both of us are acting.


Well, I think her reaction was bigger than it needed to be re the purse/hairdresser situation, but I can see where it started.

I think that her wanting to know that you aren't writing things off as "just her perspective" or "just in your head" (from an earlier post) is not her asking to be told she is right. I think she is asking you to try to see where she is coming from vs. shutting her down. Unless there is follow-up, "That is just your perspective" is pretty much the same as "I'm sorry you feel that way", IMO.

It could be that your background of having to bend to other's point of view has likely trained you into some black and white thinking, where you have to give up your perspective to adopt someone else's in order to survive. As an adult, you don't have to bend to someone else to try to see where they are coming from. You don't have to give up any part of you, or your perspective, to try to see where another person is coming from. 

In an earlier post, you brought up a scenario where your wife says that she was hurt by you standing up on the chairs or table at a party and embarrassing her, when you actually never stood up on the chair or table. 
This was a fake scenario (from what I understand). So are you saying that your wife often pulls things entirely like that from Left Field? Or could it be more like, you stood up next to your chair and gave a speech? And maybe you'd had a bit to drink so the speech was long. Possibly you were fairly intoxicated and the speech was long and inappropriate...but you NEVER got up on the table or chair! See where I'm coming from? If she is actually making things up, then there is a psychiatric problem...but I can see the purse/hair salon scenario going something like my scenario...


Someone earlier recommended the book Love Busters; I think that would be a great place to start. It will help you frame her and your behaviors differently, and might help you find the clarity you're looking for.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Mr. Man said:


> Yes, she wants to be heard and know that I am trying to understand her. I have no problem with that. That seems healthy. However, she does ask to be told that she is right. She will tell me her point of view on something and when I ask her what she needs she will say that she wants to know i don't think it's just her point of view. She will say that she wants me to agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does she say "tell me that I'm right!" or does she say "tell me that what I am saying/thinking/feeling makes perfect sense to me"? Because to me, the latter is asking you to see where she is coming from. It is not the same as saying "I am right about this situation", it is saying "I can see why you feel/think/speak that way."

Unless your wife is truly making things up, I don't think it is helpful for you to try to figure out whether she is "too emotional" or "too needy". Just work on trying to understand each other. Look for the Win-Wins.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

@MrMan, I had your situation confused with another thread that is going on. The other thread has similar issues. I believe that active listening and checking out Love Busters are still good options for you, as they are for anyone, but a lot of my targeted posts were completely off and belonged elsewhere so I've edited them.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Man said:


> OK--that was really useful. You're saying there's a step I've skipped where I put in a loving boundary. That makes sense to me. I did something like that, but not in a very loving way, a few weeks ago and she really didn't like it. I'll think about that.


Even if you kiss her toes while you're saying it, she won't like hearing it. NObody wants to be told it's up to THEM to fix things, that THEY have to change. 

That's why this has to happen in front of the MC.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Man said:


> My father never disagreed with my mother and didn't have a life apart from her (except for work). His resentments came out in bursts of anger and then vanished. My mother strongly advocated for her kids to always put the other person first in any relationship and to always look at their point of view first. So, as I have figured out after many years, I did not grow up with a healthy male role model, nor did I grow up learning that my thoughts and feelings mattered much.
> 
> I discovered No More Mr Nice Guy last year and that has been very helpful to me. I've started spending a lot more time with male friends, I've learned what boundaries are (wish I'd known that years ago!), and I've gotten better at asking for what I want. I still have a long way to go, and I think the issues in my marriage reflect that, but I have also learned a lot.
> 
> My wife is a career woman, we both work, split child care between us. She comes across very type A and confident, although I have figured out that there is a deep insecurity beneath all of her bluster. I'm insecure, but her insecurity reaches a level that I don't think I've ever experienced. She had a pretty ****ty childhood. I was brought up to be a caretaker and it is hard to learn how not to caretake.


So what are YOU doing to fix this part of you? To be able to speak up? To gently say no when you don't want to do something? To tell her you love her, but you won't do what she asks because you think it's the wrong thing to do? 

If you weren't raised with it, this stuff is terrifying.

But try to dig deeper into WHY it's terrifying. What are you really expecting to happen? Will she call you a name? Pack her bags? Divorce you? Attack you with a knife? Get specific about this; you really need to learn to start identifying what's going on inside of you when you come up against something she wants, if you feel it's not a legitimate need or request. 

Because only once you understand what your fight or flight response is all about can you reprogram your auto responses.

Like if she says 'you gotta give me a massage every night or I'll know you don't love me.' Ridiculous. But YOUR initial reaction is probably 'ok, I'll do it because I want to avoid the drama.' But subconsciously, you're feeling 'an ultimatum! she's gonna tell our neighbors I'm a POS!' or whatever it is you're really afraid of. You need to figure that stuff out, because only then can you TALK BACK to your subconscious and talk you off the ledge with LOGIC.

Now, another great book on your journey to becoming a former Nice Guy is Hold On To Your N.U.T.s. It's a way to lovingly put your family first but still have your own life. As you should. And she should. 

Now, given that your wife's needs are supersized and dysfunctional, it's going to be hard to maintain your own 'self'; she's gonna push against that because if you're off meeting your own needs, you aren't feeding her bottomless pit. And in her subconscious, THAT is your role.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

RoseAglow said:


> Does she say "tell me that I'm right!" or does she say "tell me that what I am saying/thinking/feeling makes perfect sense to me"? Because to me, the latter is asking you to see where she is coming from. It is not the same as saying "I am right about this situation", it is saying "I can see why you feel/think/speak that way."
> 
> Unless your wife is truly making things up, I don't think it is helpful for you to try to figure out whether she is "too emotional" or "too needy". Just work on trying to understand each other. Look for the Win-Wins.


She says that she wants me to agree. If I say something like, "I can totally understand why it would feel like that," or "It makes sense that it feels that way" she is not satisfied. Because I am still, essentially, saying that it is her perspective. 

She often asks for me to take responsibility for my role. I will take responsibility for what I see as my role but if that is not what she sees as my role then she is not satisfied. 

This is the crux of our conflict. She is hurt by something then not satisfied by my reaction to her saying she's hurt.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Mr. Man said:


> She says that she wants me to agree. If I say something like, "I can totally understand why it would feel like that," or "It makes sense that it feels that way" she is not satisfied. Because I am still, essentially, saying that it is her perspective.
> 
> She often asks for me to take responsibility for my role. I will take responsibility for what I see as my role but if that is not what she sees as my role then she is not satisfied.
> 
> This is the crux of our conflict. She is hurt by something then not satisfied by my reaction to her saying she's hurt.


She needs therapy. Seriously. Who the hell is SHE to say what your role is or isnt? Who is she to tell you whether your reactions are valid or not? Here you twist yourself upside down and backwards trying to kiss her ass and "validate" her no matter how ridiculous she is being... what about YOU and YOUR needs? What does she do for you to meet YOUR needs?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Mr. Man said:


> RoseAglow said:
> 
> 
> > Does she say "tell me that I'm right!" or does she say "tell me that what I am saying/thinking/feeling makes perfect sense to me"? Because to me, the latter is asking you to see where she is coming from. It is not the same as saying "I am right about this situation", it is saying "I can see why you feel/think/speak that way."
> ...


I went through this exact same dynamic with a man I had a relationship with (note the past tense). Exact same dynamic. He was "hurt" by things that an average person wouldn't even bat an eyelash about. Then, wanted me to take responsibility for his hurt feelings and apologize for hurting his feelings and for what I did to hurt them. 

Hard to do when in reality you have done nothing wrong, and I mean truly. It's like he wanted me to apologize for me thinking the sky is blue and it hurt his feelings that I thought so, and he needed me to also affirm that thinking the sky is blue is wronging him. I had to agree that my reality about something benign was hurtful and must be apologized for. 

You are dealing with a person who is damaged. I believe people like this need you to agree with their perspective, otherwise they have to face the fact that they might have a problem.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Man said:


> She says that she wants me to agree. If I say something like, "I can totally understand why it would feel like that," or "It makes sense that it feels that way" she is not satisfied. Because I am still, essentially, saying that it is her perspective.
> 
> She often asks for me to take responsibility for my role. I will take responsibility for what I see as my role but if that is not what she sees as my role then she is not satisfied.
> 
> This is the crux of our conflict. She is hurt by something then not satisfied by my reaction to her saying she's hurt.


Shrugs work well.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Mr. Man said:


> But there is a big gap between the times I think I am doing something wrong and the times she thinks I am doing something wrong. That's the conflict.


MrMan, as I tried to explain earlier, a person having strong BPD traits experiences intense feelings so frequently that her perceptions of your intentions and motivations is strongly distorted. This is why BPD is said to be a "thought disorder." For the vast majority of BPDers, this distortion usually affects only their perception of the behavior of people close to them. It thus typically does not affect their intelligence or their perception of things outside the close personal relationships.



> I also really don't think she has BPD. There are too many symptoms she doesn't show--inability to hold a job, inability to have lasting relationships, self-harm, obsessive behavior.


The vast majority of BPDers -- even those having full-blown BPD -- do not exhibit self-harm or the inability to have lasting relationships. My exW, for example, has numerous long-term relationships with casual friends. It is when people draw very close that BPDers start pushing them away. My exW usually pushed her close friends away after 4 or 5 years. 

Moreover, whereas low-functioning BPDers tend to do self harming, the high-functioning BPDers (which account for the vast majority) do not. Further, HF BPDers typically are able to hold a job and many of them excel in very demanding professions, becoming excellent professors, surgeons, actors, politicians, and scientists. As to your W not exhibiting_ "obsessive behavior,"_ I note that such behavior is NOT a symptom of BPD. Perhaps you are confusing it with _impulsive behavio_r, which is a BPD trait.



> It also seems like BPD is shorthand for female behavior that men don't like in a lot of forums.


The lifetime prevalence of BPD is the same (6%) for both genders.



> She's already self-diagnosed with PTSD, why make it more complicated than that?


MrMan, you state (post 51), _"What I am wrestling with is if she is acting out of the norm, unhealthily needy, unreasonable expectations, playing the victim to avoid being responsible for her own feelings or if I am really missing something, expecting her to be too self-reliant...."_ Do you really want help in addressing that question? If so, I suggest you move beyond PTSD because the behavioral symptoms you describe (i.e., the warning signs) are far beyond those for PTSD.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Mr. Man said:


> This is the crux of our conflict. She is hurt by something then not satisfied by my reaction to her saying she's hurt.


Well you could stop feeding this nonsense and tell her she's wrong. Likewise whenever she is not satisfied by your reaction you can just tell her to "get over it".


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Livvie said:


> I went through this exact same dynamic with a man I had a relationship with (note the past tense). Exact same dynamic. He was "hurt" by things that an average person wouldn't even bat an eyelash about. Then, wanted me to take responsibility for his hurt feelings and apologize for hurting his feelings and for what I did to hurt them.
> 
> Hard to do when in reality you have done nothing wrong, and I mean truly. It's like he wanted me to apologize for me thinking the sky is blue and it hurt his feelings that I thought so, and he needed me to also affirm that thinking the sky is blue is wronging him. I had to agree that my reality about something benign was hurtful and must be apologized for.
> 
> You are dealing with a person who is damaged. I believe people like this need you to agree with their perspective, otherwise they have to face the fact that they might have a problem.


 Same here.

If DD and I didn't want to do something my H wanted to do, it became "Fine, y'all don't care about me anyway. I'm just a paycheck to you." Or if I didn't ooh and aah over something he was telling me, it was "I may as well just drive off a bridge, you'll never notice." 

I spent 30+ years trying to KEEP him from saying things like that, trying to keep him from getting his feelings hurt, until my IC taught me that I was enabling him, making it worse, and making HIM as miserable as I was because I wasn't allowing him to take responsibility for his own feelings. 

She taught me how to say no in a loving, logical way, and then walk away from the situation without being a jerk, if he still demanded that l was hurting his feelings. Not my monkey, not my circus. 

Things have improved SO much since I stopped enabling him that way. You can do it too, ok? Go to IC, start learning steps to show her you love her but you need to have your own voice. It will help BOTH of you.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Yep, you had a very dysfunctional family and NOW you are teaching your kids how to let it continue. You keep rewording the same issues trying to validate your wife's position. Here's the problem with one comment. You have supported your wife and she hasn't figured it out. Now, you are being told to support her again while she figures it out. Doing more of the same thing better, is still doing the same thing. If it isn't working, why would more work better? So, you internalize this mess, figure out ways why you are doing it wrong and the conflict grows. Why? Because the root of the problem is never addressed. Yes, there are times your wife and kid's choices come first. There are times where your wants and needs are secondary. There are also times where you do not support bad decisions. 

I sure have had to tell my wife "you are wrong" and she has done the same to me. Guess what? Just because you are married your perspectives do not magically become the same. The more you type, the more I understand why there is such a conflict. 



> I think, frankly, I doubt my own perspective after a lifetime of bending to other people's points of view, so I am looking for some outside thoughts on the way both of us are acting.


So, do you ever disagree outright or is it always about validating her feelings?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> I think, frankly, I doubt my own perspective after a lifetime of bending to other people's points of view, so I am looking for some outside thoughts on the way both of us are acting.


And that's what we've all been telling you. You SHOULD doubt your perspective because it is flawed. It is programmed to be a Giver and not ask for anything in return. 

So it is YOU who needs to change, to grow, to learn, to use healthier responses because the two of you are stuck in a dysfunctional dance that is harming the whole family. You're the one here asking for help, so it has to be you making the change.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MrM,
You come across as very - sane. 

That said, it's very difficult to gauge what is happening in a marriage - from the outside. 

And - fwiw - I often find that the facts as presented are highly accurate. It often turns out that the presenter has a few blind spots, and unintentionally leaves out stuff that - has a meaningful impact on their marital dynamic. 

A couple high level questions for you. Does your wife mainly claim to feel neglected or abused. I am not implying that you hit her, just trying to gauge the polarity here. Lack of perceived intensity of love vs lack of perceived sensitivity. 

For some people - not saying this is true for your wife - getting others to apologize is an attempt to feel validated: I matter, they love me and care how I feel. Alternatively it's a power/control move: I can MAKE you (apologize) do what I want. 

Humor a thought here. If your wife is thinking - I can't wait for our youngest to go to college - so we can divorce - than this is likely a validation driven behavior. If she fully intends to stick round til the final credits roll - more likely a power move. 







Mr. Man said:


> My wife and I perpetually are in conflict about her feelings being hurt. It's endless and exhausting.
> 
> She feels like she gets hurt by something I say or do and tells me about it and is seeking validation. Instead of feeling validated, she feels like I am defensive. She doesn't feel heard.
> 
> ...


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> So, do you ever disagree outright or is it always about validating her feelings?


Yes, I disagree outright. That is usually the beginning of her asking for me to validate her feelings. When I disagree outright, she feels unheard.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

turnera said:


> And that's what we've all been telling you. You SHOULD doubt your perspective because it is flawed. It is programmed to be a Giver and not ask for anything in return.
> 
> So it is YOU who needs to change, to grow, to learn, to use healthier responses because the two of you are stuck in a dysfunctional dance that is harming the whole family. You're the one here asking for help, so it has to be you making the change.


Yes, I agree. I am the one looking for help and the one asking questions. I am the one who is able to change and have to change the things that I can control. Knowing how her behavior fits into the norm helps me to figure out what to do, how to change. Because with a flawed perspective, I'm not sure if the things I'm doing are the healthy thing or not. 

Learning boundaries for me was and is very hard because it was so foreign. It's hard to calibrate.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Man said:


> Yes, I disagree outright. That is usually the beginning of her asking for me to validate her feelings. When I disagree outright, she feels unheard.


Have you ever just said to her that it's healthy for each of you to have your own opinions?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Man said:


> Yes, I agree. I am the one looking for help and the one asking questions. I am the one who is able to change and have to change the things that I can control. Knowing how her behavior fits into the norm helps me to figure out what to do, how to change. Because with a flawed perspective, I'm not sure if the things I'm doing are the healthy thing or not.
> 
> Learning boundaries for me was and is very hard because it was so foreign. It's hard to calibrate.


How much work have you done/are you doing on that? Have you read any books on it? Boundaries in Marriage is really good. There are many others, and tons of articles on it.

If you give us a list of instances where things go wrong, we can give you advice on how to maneuver them in the future.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> MrM,
> You come across as very - sane.
> 
> That said, it's very difficult to gauge what is happening in a marriage - from the outside.
> ...


Nice to be sane.

I'm glad to hear you comment on the subjectivity of these posts. Of course this is all my perspective and try as hard as I might to be fair, not assume that I see things objectively, I am certain to be missing something.

Answers to your questions: she mostly feels neglected. I don't express enough gratitude, don't appreciate her enough, don't listen very well, that kind of thing. It's rare for her to say I'm out and out cruel.

Where we are right now, divorce is being talked about pretty openly. She has asked if I want to leave. She has threatened to leave herself (as in, I can't take this any more) but she has said that numerous times and has never done anything else. With that said, if she told me she wanted a divorce some time soon I would not be surprised. We're both pretty unhappy and disconnected. This is her second marriage, my first, so she is capable of asking for divorce. I think she pushed for the divorce in first marriage. 

My instinct with that thought is that she is seeking validation. I think her childhood--absent father--has made her very attached to any sign of acceptance and love and alternatively very sensitive to any sign of rejection/non-acceptance. With that said, I also strongly believe that she likes to be in control as much as possible because it feels safe (which goes to her PTSD self-diagnosis). So power moves may be par tof her motivation because control feels safe.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

turnera said:


> How much work have you done/are you doing on that? Have you read any books on it? Boundaries in Marriage is really good. There are many others, and tons of articles on it.
> 
> If you give us a list of instances where things go wrong, we can give you advice on how to maneuver them in the future.


I have never told or (nor thought) that it's healthy we each have our own opinions. That's a good point. 

I've been in IC for over a year, I've read multiple books including several books on boundaries. Like I said, it's a work in progress because it was all new to me, it still feels very uncomfortable, but I know what they are and I work on them. 

Thanks for the offer to help in the future. I could use it .


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MM,
Very helpful response. I will begin with an observation - you describe the current situation the way a skilled professional analyst would - I don't mean a psychoanalyst or marriage counselor - I refer more generally to someone with an analytical mindset. 

Reason I say that is you refer to the potential for divorce in terms of likelihood - and frankly your assessment seems sound. But you don't comment at all about how you would feel about such an outcome. 

An analysts (yes - that's me) view of your post is that you are relatively neutral (emotionally) regarding that outcome. While being neutral is neither inherently good or bad, it lowers the odds of success with a wife like yours. 

I'm going to briefly address one glaring marital drawback of being a male analyst. They tend to be heavily focused on:
1. Objective observations and facts and 
2. Explicit language based communication 

I will address those in reverse order. The average man is taller and stronger than the average woman. That is a fact. And I am every bit as certain the average woman is way way better at non verbal communication than the average man. 

Male analytical types tend to lean heavily on logical, precise verbal communication. That said, they also tend to have huge blind spots. 90% of you reassuring her - is non verbal. Are you good at that? 





Mr. Man said:


> Nice to be sane.
> 
> I'm glad to hear you comment on the subjectivity of these posts. Of course this is all my perspective and try as hard as I might to be fair, not assume that I see things objectively, I am certain to be missing something.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MM,

If your wife claims you stood on a chair and told your guests you hate them - and you know you didn't do that - it raises a question. Does she actually think that, or:
- is she exaggerating for effect or
- did she feel ignored while you were with your guests

Your wife may feel a lot more threatened by your interactions with others than you realize.





Mr. Man said:


> Yes, I disagree outright. That is usually the beginning of her asking for me to validate her feelings. When I disagree outright, she feels unheard.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> MM,
> Very helpful response. I will begin with an observation - you describe the current situation the way a skilled professional analyst would - I don't mean a psychoanalyst or marriage counselor - I refer more generally to someone with an analytical mindset.
> 
> Reason I say that is you refer to the potential for divorce in terms of likelihood - and frankly your assessment seems sound. But you don't comment at all about how you would feel about such an outcome.
> ...


Wow--very insightful. Yeah, I am very analytical. It's a huge plus in my job, not always a huge plus in my marriage!

Am I good at non verbal reassurance? I have no f***ing idea!


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> MM,
> 
> If your wife claims you stood on a chair and told your guests you hate them - and you know you didn't do that - it raises a question. Does she actually think that, or:
> - is she exaggerating for effect or
> ...


So that was an exaggeration meant to show that she sometimes tells me I did or said something that I am certain I did not do or say--you probably figured that out. Usually it's something more subjective like she changes the words I said in a way that changes the meaning. 

I'm pretty sure that she believes what she says. She is very certain that I said xyz or did xyz while I am equally certain that I didn't. Of course, i think my memory is more accurate since I'm the one who did or said the thing. 

Quick example--she told me I was rude to some dinner guests. I was a little drunk so my memory was not perfect--she might have been right. I didn't think I was. I didn't mean to be, they were friends of mine. But you know, when you drink sometimes you say things, so I talked to the man in the couple and he said he hadn't been offended by anything I said. But my wife was offended. So what does that mean? She interpreted my actions as offensive even if nobody else did. 

I think she felt embarrassed by something I said or did and so attributed it to me being mean or rude, even if that wasn't my intention. 

I do not think she is exaggerating for effect--not consciously. I think she genuinely believes what she says, believes that her perspective is the correct, accurate, honest perspective rather than just her perspective. 

At least that's my perspective!


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Mr. Man said:


> jld--
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's a fancy way of saying no one likes to be judged. So stop analyzing how she feels and deciding it's wrong for her to feel that way.
Your communication style isn't giving her the feeling of being accepted. You can't help how people interpret what you say. But there is a 50% responsibility to try and "word" it so your INTENT is clear. Which relieves your frustration at not being heard correctly.
Or just stop focusing on words and let your actions speak for you. Much easier 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

crocus said:


> Mr. Man said:
> 
> 
> > jld--
> ...


It's not "wrong" for her to feel the way she feels, but it certainly isn't "right" for her to over and over expect her husband to accept responsibility for her emotions when they are not *realistically or reasonably* the result of anything negative he actually did. Or to be subject over and over to her negative reactions/lashing out due to what sounds like dysfunctional perception of interactions and happenings.


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

Your wife sounds sounds more narcissistic than BPD though alot of the behavior is similar. 
In the story, Narcissus fell in love with a reflection of himself. Narcissticts react very negative to any different opinions or perspectives because they indicate you are a separate person with your own thoughts and ideas and feelings and that is not allowed. Your purpose in life is to prop up their fragile ego by reflecting back to them everything they think, feel or believe. Simple validation will never be enough. Only an exact reflection will make them feel confident that they are right. And there is only right or wrong. If they are not right, they must be wrong and that is not allowed either.





Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I have been known to be sensitive in relationships. But I think the perspective that my own opinion is the only valid one and the other person has to agree constantly is ridiculous. There we agree. 

One thing I have learned over the years to try and see the positive in the other person instead of just making negative statements about their behavior in a specific argument. It's called the poo sandwich approach. In other words, you take the negative news you want to break, the sandwich filling (poo) - "I am baffled by your point of view and can't in all honesty take responsibility for your crying about us having a MC appt. in the office when it's what you have preferred in the past." You cushion it on either end with positive , GENUINE statements that you honestly believe. (the bread) e.g. "I love how you are honest about your feelings with me. It helps me try and understand where you're coming from without as much guesswork."

So in other words, your response might go like this:

SLICE OF BREAD 1:I love how you are honest about your feelings with me. It helps me try and understand where you're coming from without as much guesswork. 
FILLING:"Having said that, I am a little baffled by your point of view and can't in all honesty take responsibility for your crying about us having a MC appt. in the office when it's what you have preferred in the past." 
SLICE OF BREAD 2: I do appreciate your bringing it up, though. It's an opportunity for us to understand each other better. 

You could then maybe ask if she understands where you're coming from at all, even if she doesn't agree with your point of view?

It's only a small tool but one that I have found effective because it forces you to state things you really appreciate about the other person without sacrificing your honesty and communication.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

joannacroc said:


> I have been known to be sensitive in relationships. But I think the perspective that my own opinion is the only valid one and the other person has to agree constantly is ridiculous. There we agree.
> 
> One thing I have learned over the years to try and see the positive in the other person instead of just making negative statements about their behavior in a specific argument. It's called the poo sandwich approach. In other words, you take the negative news you want to break, the sandwich filling (poo) - "I am baffled by your point of view and can't in all honesty take responsibility for your crying about us having a MC appt. in the office when it's what you have preferred in the past." You cushion it on either end with positive , GENUINE statements that you honestly believe. (the bread) e.g. "I love how you are honest about your feelings with me. It helps me try and understand where you're coming from without as much guesswork."
> 
> ...


I think removing the bolded would make it a great dialogue. The bolded is likely to make her feel defensive.


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## Magnesium (Jun 19, 2017)

wringo123 said:


> Your wife sounds sounds more narcissistic than BPD though alot of the behavior is similar.
> In the story, Narcissus fell in love with a reflection of himself. Narcissticts react very negative to any different opinions or perspectives because they indicate you are a separate person with your own thoughts and ideas and feelings and that is not allowed. Your purpose in life is to prop up their fragile ego by reflecting back to them everything they think, feel or believe. Simple validation will never be enough. Only an exact reflection will make them feel confident that they are right. And there is only right or wrong. If they are not right, they must be wrong and that is not allowed either.


I was thinking the same thing. Your wife sounds manipulative and egotistical. The trouble with these types is that there is no changing them and there is no pleasing them. .


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

Mr. Man, find the book Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist in your life. There is alot of good information on how to communicate with these types of controlling and manipulative personalities. The book was a game changer for me. Parts of it were actually painful to read but it was the first time I got some validation (no pun intended) that the behavior I was experiencing was not normal and it was not me.

The first clue that what you are experiencing is not normal is the title of your post. Getting you to question what is normal and acceptable in a relationship is the first step in manipulating you. Getting you to wonder whether it is you that is the problem is classic gaslighting and crazy making behavior.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

That Daeda stuff is spot on for some women. Sounds like your wife is one of them.
Some men are naturally good at letting stuff roll off their backs. Sounds like you are not one of them.
You need to remain calm in the face of her negative emotions. Hard to do when you are a sensitive guy who cares about his wife's feelings and emotional state. my simple advice: stop caring so much about her emotional state. Stop trying to manage it. Stop being so arrogant as to think that you can control it. Her emotions are a force of nature that you couldn't possibly harness. And most likely wouldn't want to. So stop trying. Just let them be. Most likely she doesn't WANT you to try to change her bad moods. She just wants you to listen. So listen and nod and thank her for sharing her feelings with you and move on. Don't let them affect you and don't try to do anything about them.
Think of them like the ocean and the tides. Helpful to know what tide it is at the moment but nothing you can do to change it. 
She is going to have bad moods. That is her problem. Her circus, her monkeys. Don't make it yours.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

Well, I appreciate everybody's responses. I looked at the book on BPD and I still don't think that's her. She may have some of those traits, but I don't think she has enough. It also seems to me that being raised by a single mom with MH problems and having no father around is enough to cause deep insecurities and feelings of abandonment that would result in an out-of-normal-proportion need for reassurance from a spouse. 

I do agree that she's got some narcissistic tendencies. She often asks our kids to tell her she's the greatest mom. She does it in a joking way, but I think the desire to be told she's amazing is there because deep down she doesn't feel good about herself. 

There have a been a lot of different perspectives, and it sounds like the main theme is not not take care of her feelings so much. I definitely find that hard to do, because when I do, she tells me that I am being selfish, that I'm distant, that I'm not being vulnerable, that I can't handle her emotions, etc. When I hear those things I wonder if they are true. Because I could easily be that guy and have no idea that I am. So having trust that my thoughts and feelings are ok and valid and equal in importance to hers is a challenge. 

I have some thinking and reading to do. 

Oh, and thanks for the s**t sandwich idea. That looks useful.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Man said:


> it sounds like the main theme is not not take care of her feelings so much. I definitely find that hard to do, because when I do, she tells me that I am being selfish


So?


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

Mr. Man said:


> Well, I appreciate everybody's responses. I looked at the book on BPD and I still don't think that's her. She may have some of those traits, but I don't think she has enough. It also seems to me that being raised by a single mom with MH problems and having no father around is enough to cause deep insecurities and feelings of abandonment that would result in an out-of-normal-proportion need for reassurance from a spouse.
> 
> I do agree that she's got some narcissistic tendencies. She often asks our kids to tell her she's the greatest mom. She does it in a joking way, but I think the desire to be told she's amazing is there because deep down she doesn't feel good about herself.
> 
> ...


You need to respond to a behavior, not a diagnosis. If you find it challenging not to feel responsible for her hurt feelings I really encourage you to read the book I recommended. It is specifically geared towards how to respond to people who try and hold you responsible for how they feel. Part of that is explaining the psychology behind the insistence that you agree with them all the time. It is a hallmark sign of narcisism. Being raised by a mother with MH issues has also been observed as a high risk factor.

The reality is that she probably is hurt when you don't buy into her perspective on everything because she sees that as a threat. What you need to figure out is how much of yourself are you willing to give away in order to keep her from being hurt. 

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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I do believe that part of your issue may be that in the normal course of day to day life - you are not connecting well with her. 

Maybe it's an eye contact thing, or a touch thing or a sex thing. She is trying to feel 'less bad', so the question is: why does she feel generally bad to begin with?





Mr. Man said:


> Well, I appreciate everybody's responses. I looked at the book on BPD and I still don't think that's her. She may have some of those traits, but I don't think she has enough. It also seems to me that being raised by a single mom with MH problems and having no father around is enough to cause deep insecurities and feelings of abandonment that would result in an out-of-normal-proportion need for reassurance from a spouse.
> 
> I do agree that she's got some narcissistic tendencies. She often asks our kids to tell her she's the greatest mom. She does it in a joking way, but I think the desire to be told she's amazing is there because deep down she doesn't feel good about herself.
> 
> ...


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Mr. Man said:


> There have a been a lot of different perspectives, and it sounds like the main theme is not not take care of her feelings so much. I definitely find that hard to do, because when I do, she tells me that I am being selfish, that I'm distant, that I'm not being vulnerable, that I can't handle her emotions, etc. When I hear those things I wonder if they are true. Because I could easily be that guy and have no idea that I am. So having trust that my thoughts and feelings are ok and valid and equal in importance to hers is a challenge.


Okay, answer me this? When you fix your behaviors, like doing the small things she asks, does it get better or worse?


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

Mr. Man, what does she consider taking care of her feelings? What are you not doing when she accuses you of being selfish and distant?


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> I do believe that part of your issue may be that in the normal course of day to day life - you are not connecting well with her.
> 
> Maybe it's an eye contact thing, or a touch thing or a sex thing. She is trying to feel 'less bad', so the question is: why does she feel generally bad to begin with?



Neither one of us feels much connection right now. We've spent almost a year in MC trying to repair that. There are some big things to recover from in our past, for both of us. Most of the time right now I don't want to be around her because of all the negativity and complaining from her and my own fears of yet another fight starting. 

She has had some big changes in the last half dozen years, including deaths in her family and big job changes and she has not felt like I was there to support her. I agree with some of that. I was angry and resentful about some things she did and was not very empathetic. 

So I think the answer is that she has some things that she experienced but has never dealt with (she refuses to see a therapist) and as a couple we have things that make it hard for us to trust each other. The connection you talk about is very frail. It is a fight to get a connection. It doesn't happen naturally.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Okay, answer me this? When you fix your behaviors, like doing the small things she asks, does it get better or worse?


I'd say she gets better for a while. She asked me a few weeks ago to do more things to show her I'm think about her, like leaving her hidden love notes, getting her little gifts when there are no special days, offering to rub her back without any sexual overtones, that kind of thing. So I have been trying to do that--I think I've been successful, a a couple times a week some little surprise. She notices and says thank you and smiles and gives me positive feedback. So, in the moment, I think it gets better, but I don;t see that it changes anything big picture.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What did you do when you were dating? That is the man she thought she was marrying. If you're not still doing the same things, that's what she's missing.


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

Mr. Man said:


> Neither one of us feels much connection right now. We've spent almost a year in MC trying to repair that. There are some big things to recover from in our past, for both of us. Most of the time right now I don't want to be around her because of all the negativity and complaining from her and my own fears of yet another fight starting.
> 
> She has had some big changes in the last half dozen years, including deaths in her family and big job changes and she has not felt like I was there to support her. I agree with some of that. I was angry and resentful about some things she did and was not very empathetic.
> 
> So I think the answer is that she has some things that she experienced but has never dealt with (she refuses to see a therapist) and as a couple we have things that make it hard for us to trust each other. The connection you talk about is very frail. It is a fight to get a connection. It doesn't happen naturally.


Why are you afraid of her anger? 


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

wringo123 said:


> Why are you afraid of her anger?
> 
> 
> Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


That's a good question. Interesting that you zoomed in on it. We get into some pretty good fights. they are very damaging. I'm afraid of that. I think I'm afraid of her anger because she's gone. She's angry, she pulls back, she's unavailable. It happens a lot; it's not a rare thing. We don't have a lot of connection and then her anger means even less. So, feeling alone, abandoned. I think that when she gets angry it is so hard for her to recover--so I want her not to get angry in the first place. She stays pulled back for days. 

There are probably some other things that I'm not aware of.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

wringo123 said:


> Mr. Man, what does she consider taking care of her feelings? What are you not doing when she accuses you of being selfish and distant?
> 
> 
> Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


As far as I can tell, and I might not have this right, she thinks her feelings are taken care of when I listen to her, apologize to her, and validate that her perspective is right. Not just say i understand she feels that way or i can understand why it feels that way, she wants to hear that the way she feels is correct. As in, objectively correct. 

For example. We had an argument the other night and she started talking about an old incident. She was telling me that I had a reaction to that old incident when it happened. I did have a reaction when it happened, but not for the reason she said. It's something we have argued about for years. We just see it in a very different way. When I disagreed with her (about something I had felt years ago) she told me that I couldn't argue because it was the objective truth.

Of course it's not. Each of us have out own subjective feelings. My feelings about an incident are different that hers, and neither of us is objective. I can't be completely sure, of course, but what it seems to me is that she thinks her version is the objective truth and she wants me to validate that. So when I don't, when I at say I understand why it feels that way, or something similar, to her it never quite feels right. it feels like I am holding back, like i am being defensive, like I am not being vulnerable, because I am not admitting that she is right.

So, as far as I can tell, that's what I am not doing. I am not telling her that her subjective view of my actions (or even my thoughts and feelings) is true.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Her ego is so fragile that any disagreement by you is seen as an attack on her. She needs to be right. There is no room to agree to disagree.

But she takes it a step further. Because you disagree, you must be forced to see it her way or she punishes you. You need correcting to see it the "right way".

This is an incredibly tiring type of person with which to live.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr. Man said:


> Neither one of us feels much connection right now. We've spent almost a year in MC trying to repair that. There are some big things to recover from in our past, for both of us. Most of the time right now I don't want to be around her because of all the negativity and complaining from her and my own fears of yet another fight starting.
> 
> She has had some big changes in the last half dozen years, including deaths in her family and big job changes and she has not felt like I was there to support her. I agree with some of that. I was angry and resentful about some things she did and was not very empathetic.
> 
> So I think the answer is that *she has some things that she experienced but has never dealt with (she refuses to see a therapist) *and as a couple we have things that make it hard for us to trust each other. The connection you talk about is very frail. It is a fight to get a connection. It doesn't happen naturally.


Does she have trust issues in general?

As far as your not being able to validate her . . . It probably depends on what you cannot validate. I could deal with my husband's not seeing some things the way I do if he could explain why and it seemed reasonable to me, if they were consistent with his stands in other areas, if we still had a significant number of things we saw similarly in areas that were important to both of us, and if I generally felt loved and nurtured by him.

But too many significant differences in too many areas of importance and not enough love and nurturing . . . and I think I would start wondering if he were truly the life partner for me.

What is holding the relationship together, OP?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr. Man said:


> Neither one of us feels much connection right now. We've spent almost a year in MC trying to repair that. There are some big things to recover from in our past, for both of us. Most of the time right now I don't want to be around her because of all the negativity and complaining from her and my own fears of yet another fight starting.
> 
> *She has had some big changes in the last half dozen years, including deaths in her family and big job changes and she has not felt like I was there to support her. I agree with some of that. I was angry and resentful about some things she did and was not very empathetic. *
> 
> So I think the answer is that she has some things that she experienced but has never dealt with (she refuses to see a therapist) and as a couple we have things that make it hard for us to trust each other. The connection you talk about is very frail. It is a fight to get a connection. It doesn't happen naturally.


It sounds like this might be the heart of the matter. 

Your not being there for her when she needed you broke her trust. Even if she wants to trust you now, her mind probably goes back to those feelings of betrayal. 

And it sounds like you have your own feelings of betrayal in the relationship that you want her to address.

That must be hard, to have two people in a relationship feeling hurt and resentful of the other.

If one of you could go first, be the leader, and try to meet the needs of the other, you might start a healing cycle. Trust and understanding might gradually be built up.

Have you heard of the book _Hold Me Tight_, by Sue Johnson? I think you might find it insightful.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Man said:


> So, feeling alone, abandoned. I think that when she gets angry it is so hard for her to recover--so I want her not to get angry in the first place. She stays pulled back for days.
> 
> There are probably some other things that I'm not aware of.


First, your fear of abandonment is a DIRECT reaction to something in your childhood, such as a parent making you feel unlovable if you disappointed them. Or punishing you for screwing up.

You need to be in therapy to get to the bottom of this so that you can finally realize IT IS NOT TRUE. You won't fix this on your own. And until you fix it, you will be at the MERCY of any woman willing to manipulate you for her own needs.

And second, that is exactly what your wife is doing. If you don't do exactly what she tells you to do, think, say, SHE WITHDRAWS. Because she knows it WORKS on you. Silent treatment. Look it up. It's a form of mental abuse. And the only solution for abuse is to not let it affect you. When my H tries to pout or give me the silent treatment, I do what my therapist told me to do: pretend he isn't there, pretend I'm not even married to him, that I'm single, and I just go about my daily life as if I'd never married him, doing what I need to get done. I'm very stubborn. I can out-wait a pouter, a passive aggressive, WAY longer than they can keep pouting. 

Doing this takes away their power. Puts you on an even level with them, instead of subservient to them. Forces them to TREAT you as an equal and stop using manipulative, abusive tricks to get their way. Just like you'd ignore a bully, you ignore a manipulator.

Try it. It really works.


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

Mr. Man said:


> As far as I can tell, and I might not have this right, she thinks her feelings are taken care of when I listen to her, apologize to her, and validate that her perspective is right. Not just say i understand she feels that way or i can understand why it feels that way, she wants to hear that the way she feels is correct. As in, objectively correct.
> 
> For example. We had an argument the other night and she started talking about an old incident. She was telling me that I had a reaction to that old incident when it happened. I did have a reaction when it happened, but not for the reason she said. It's something we have argued about for years. We just see it in a very different way. When I disagreed with her (about something I had felt years ago) she told me that I couldn't argue because it was the objective truth.
> 
> ...


Mr Man, what you are describing is the concept of emotional merging. It is discussed in the book I recommended earlier and is the primary reason I suggested your wife has some really strong narcissistic traits…if not full blown NPD.

An NPD needs a caretaker (you) to be the “storehouse” for all their negative feelings. In order to do that, the caretaker must merge emotionally, psychologically with the NPD by thinking, feeling, needing, believing and wanting exactly the same things as the NPD. If the caretaker has their own feelings needs, etc., there is no room for the caretaker to be responsible for the NPD negative feelings. If you are experiencing your own emotions, you are not experiencing their emotions, for them. I know that sounds kind of crazy…that is because it is, literally, a mental illness. Also note, you are only responsible for the negative, painful emotions, so you get no “credit” for doing anything that results in them experiencing anything positive…that was all their own doing in their mind and they are the only ones “allowed” to experience it. 

https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Caretaking-Borderline-Narcissist-Drama/dp/1442238321 explains it much better and I cannot stress enough how much I recommend you read it. My whole world suddenly began to make sense when I finally read it. Unfortunately, I did not read until well after my NPD relationship had crashed and burned, but it was invaluable in giving me perspective and validating that I was not crazy and that it was him. Until I knew that to be case, healing and moving on was impossible.

Here is a quote (SOS=Sense of Self, emphasis mine)
“The SOS is a primary arena of conflict in the Caretaker/BP/NPD relationship…the conflict is over whose SOS, that is, whose ideas feelings thoughts and beliefs will be prevailing ones in the relationship. In order to feel comfortable, the BP/NPD needs you to feel, think, act and believe exactly as he or she does. The BP/NPD demands that you conform to his or her definition of the SOS that is the “right” one, that is, theirs.

You may try for a while to match the BP/NP’s SOS, but that just leads to you feeling devalued, invisible, and not seen or considered. Eventually, *your SOS will shrivel and go underground or you have t**o find a way to be seen and heard*…but every time you disagree, have different feeling, or want to do something different, you are considered selfish, disloyal, uncaring and unloving…*the whole premise is that there can and should be only one SOS”*

The take away here is that there is no middle ground. There is no way to keep your own SOS, while at the same time validating hers. Kind of like Highlander "there can be only one". :smile2: You can either surrender any individual identity and end up a puddled mess of a person (been there done that) or learn to deal with your fear of her anger and what it may lead to. I get the reasons for your fear, but you need to understand that she uses that fear as way to control you. I wish I could give you the magic word for getting over that, but for all the progress I have made, fear of another’s anger, is one area in which I still struggle greatly, even though the person I am with now is in no way controlling. 

Anyway, sorry if I threadjacked. This thread has been a bit of a trigger for me (if you couldn’t tell:smile2: )

PS…the reason she doesn’t want to go the individual counseling is because you will not be there to absorb the pain that inevitably comes with that sort of thing.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I'm not ignoring any of the above posts, but I'm trying to get you to see something. They relate to where I'm going, but I think they contain a ton of information, which may be a little overwhelming until you grasp a small thing. I have another question, but I need you to be more specific. When you do these things, even if she is initially appreciative, what happens? For example:
I do these things for 5-6 weeks <insert example>, she does this <insert example> then I <insert your response>.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

Yikes--there are a lot of questions and ideas and I'm a little overwhelmed right now. We had a fight last night, another fight this morning, we can barely talk to each other, and it's a lot for me to process all of that plus all of the things on this board. It might take me a while to respond to everybody. I need some time to regroup. But thanks for all the feedback and I'll respond when I can.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Mr. Man said:


> For example. We had an argument the other night and she started talking about an old incident. She was telling me that I had a reaction to that old incident when it happened.


Knowing that my partner is going to hold things like this against me for the rest of the marriage sure makes me feel like it is a good and healthy relationship.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

When you are with the right person, marriage is not this difficult. Yes, there will be disagreements and arguments. Generally, though, the two of you will be on the same page - you two are not even reading from the same book. It's as though you're thinking and speaking in English while she is thinking in Chinese and speaking in English.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> When you are with the right person, marriage is not this difficult. Yes, there will be disagreements and arguments. Generally, though, the two of you will be on the same page - you two are not even reading from the same book. It's as though you're thinking and speaking in English while she is thinking in Chinese and speaking in English.


I second this. With the right person---or with someone who doesn't have a big enough emotional dysfunction that it is interfering with their ability to be a healthy relationship partner. 

What do you think you are going to do?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Livvie said:


> I second this. With the right person---or with someone who doesn't have a big enough emotional dysfunction that it is interfering with their ability to be a healthy relationship partner.


Or a person who is a USER who seeks out weak people to become their Giver.


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## Warrior73 (Jun 25, 2017)

My mother-in-law was like that...always the victim, never did anything wrong, it was somebody else's fault, passive aggressive.


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## hurts-so-bad (Jun 30, 2017)

Listen to her needs, list your needs, communicate, be understanding, be honest, don't shout, don't blame, just communicate many nights for many weeks if necessary. Communicate with her deeply.


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## Mr. Man (Aug 23, 2014)

jld said:


> Does she have trust issues in general?
> 
> As far as your not being able to validate her . . . It probably depends on what you cannot validate. I could deal with my husband's not seeing some things the way I do if he could explain why and it seemed reasonable to me, if they were consistent with his stands in other areas, if we still had a significant number of things we saw similarly in areas that were important to both of us, and if I generally felt loved and nurtured by him.
> 
> ...



Kids, awareness of my nice guy/ boundary-less past and the damage that has caused, genuine positive feelings when we get along, respect for the ways she has responded in MC and her attempts to work on things, plus fear and stubbornness.


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