# OW Broke NC and My Husband Called Back



## asia

The title says it all. I have a recorder on his cell phone and can get copies off all incoming, outgoing, and vm calls. After all of this time, she decided to "touch base" with my husband and give him a call. She left him a vm and he called back. They talked for almost 2 hours.

There were good things and bad things. The good things were they haven't been in secret contact. He told her they couldn't be friends (she didn't ask, he offered that up) because he had to respect me. He did NOT want to talk about their relationship and wanted to leave whatever they had to say to each other in the past. He was somewhat cold and distant towards her, almost sounding like a robot. He actually said if he thought she wanted some deep profound discussion that he would not have called her back because he doesn't "have it" to give emotionally.

The bad....he doesn't regret her or the time they had. He said that about a million times and apologized two million. Went on and on about how great she was to him, how she made him a better man, she was a great girlfriend and how she is going to make someone a great wife. Told her he speaks highly about her whenever someone asks about her. And here is the part that almost tore me in half. My husband reminded her of when he asked me for divorce on my birthday to be with her to make sure SHE knew how important she was to him at the time. He never mentioned his love for me and our life. He admitted to her that he had to go into therapy to get other THEIR relationship and that he takes meds (anti depressants and anxiety) to this very day. I thought he was depressed because he screwed up his life! He promised her that he didn't cheat on HER (umm excuse me, you cheated on ME with HER). And the best part, he couldn't go back and talk about anything that happened between them because he has boundaries he has to protect. He stopped therapy a long time ago but told her he goes every two or three months if he needs to. She asked how long it took him to get over her and at first he said months, then said "I don't know, it really took a long time". Indicating that he may still not be fully there!!!! I am so confused and hurt!

My thought is if he was "over" her, he could have talked about any and everything she wanted to talk about and it would have been no sweat off his back. I know he shouldn't have spoken with her at all. We have a really good chance here. This is the first time in our marriage that I feel he was/is doing the work. And he told her he was doing everything he could be to a better man and live his life right. He said to her he only thinks about the future and blocks out things (almost like he was going to block out their conversation). They hung up telling each other good things and he could call her anytime. He returned the gesture but I don't think they plan on calling each other again.

I am always nervous but was feeling better each day until I heard this conversation. What am I supposed to do with this information? I don't want to tell him I have his phone bugged. Our recovery is going nicely. I almost understand why he talked to her since they obviously had not spoken since their D-Day but he should have never returned her call and told me instantly she tried to contact him. The very fact that she called him makes me sick, the worse is he called back. 

I have been spinning in my head for weeks now. Can someone help me out with this one? I feel good on one side and terrible on the other. Does this mean our recovery is doomed? I am trying to look at this positively since he told her he had to respect me. Help!


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## awake1

No Contact is no contact. 

Don't blur your boundaries.


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## badmemory

Asia,

I assume that you had a *NO* contact agreement from him; and he was aware that you would not accept *ANY* further contact. Yes?

So now you are in that catch 22 that BS's often find themselves in. What consequence other than D, would be severe enough? I don't see any.

I'll simply tell you what I would do if my wife did this. It wouldn't matter what the substance of their conversation was.I would divorce her and not look back.


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## asia

Thanks for the replies. He doesn't know I know. I don't want him to know about taping his calls and that's the only way I could bring it up.

I am interested in the content of their conversation and what that means for me. Granted he hasn't been in touch with her so that's a huge plus. It sounded like they were not going to be in touch again but the things they talked about are killing me.


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## Hardtohandle

Can you pin it on cell phone records ? Meaning you found out that way about the call ?

I get what you're saying.. It wasn't like he said his marriage was a mistake and wishes he was with her. Its was sort of comforting and today I can understand how he feels. Trust me 6 or 7 months ago I couldn't. 

I would not give up the bugging even if it meant never bringing this up because of what it offers you.

I have issues with the BS on therapy and I have issues with the Meds.. I cried myself to sleep and I woke up crying some days.. Suck it up.. Especially since he is the one that fvcked this all up..


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## russell28

asia said:


> The title says it all. I have a recorder on his cell phone and can get copies off all incoming, outgoing, and vm calls. After all of this time, she decided to "touch base" with my husband and give him a call. She left him a vm and he called back. They talked for almost 2 hours.
> 
> There were good things and bad things. The good things were they haven't been in secret contact. He told her they couldn't be friends (she didn't ask, he offered that up) because he had to respect me. He did NOT want to talk about their relationship and wanted to leave whatever they had to say to each other in the past. He was somewhat cold and distant towards her, almost sounding like a robot. He actually said if he thought she wanted some deep profound discussion that he would not have called her back because he doesn't "have it" to give emotionally.
> 
> The bad....he doesn't regret her or the time they had. He said that about a million times and apologized two million. Went on and on about how great she was to him, how she made him a better man, she was a great girlfriend and how she is going to make someone a great wife. Told her he speaks highly about her whenever someone asks about her. And here is the part that almost tore me in half. My husband reminded her of when he asked me for divorce on my birthday to be with her to make sure SHE knew how important she was to him at the time. He never mentioned his love for me and our life. He admitted to her that he had to go into therapy to get other THEIR relationship and that he takes meds (anti depressants and anxiety) to this very day. I thought he was depressed because he screwed up his life! He promised her that he didn't cheat on HER (umm excuse me, you cheated on ME with HER). And the best part, he couldn't go back and talk about anything that happened between them because he has boundaries he has to protect. He stopped therapy a long time ago but told her he goes every two or three months if he needs to. She asked how long it took him to get over her and at first he said months, then said "I don't know, it really took a long time". Indicating that he may still not be fully there!!!! I am so confused and hurt!
> 
> My thought is if he was "over" her, he could have talked about any and everything she wanted to talk about and it would have been no sweat off his back. I know he shouldn't have spoken with her at all. We have a really good chance here. This is the first time in our marriage that I feel he was/is doing the work. And he told her he was doing everything he could be to a better man and live his life right. He said to her he only thinks about the future and blocks out things (almost like he was going to block out their conversation). They hung up telling each other good things and he could call her anytime. He returned the gesture but I don't think they plan on calling each other again.
> 
> I am always nervous but was feeling better each day until I heard this conversation. What am I supposed to do with this information? I don't want to tell him I have his phone bugged. Our recovery is going nicely. I almost understand why he talked to her since they obviously had not spoken since their D-Day but he should have never returned her call and told me instantly she tried to contact him. The very fact that she called him makes me sick, the worse is he called back.
> 
> I have been spinning in my head for weeks now. Can someone help me out with this one? I feel good on one side and terrible on the other. Does this mean our recovery is doomed? I am trying to look at this positively since he told her he had to respect me. Help!


If he really wanted to respect you, he might have learned that hiding stuff from you isn't always the best option.. and honesty works better there. He might also have learned that putting her before you, isn't a good idea.. and by having a conversation with her that you don't know about, he's doing that again. This makes me think that the whole sob story of not being able to be friends might have been him using your R as a way to make her jealous? If he really didn't want to be able to be friends, I don't think the call would have been two hours long.. it would have been "don't call me again please".

He was eating up her 'needing' him, feeding his ego, and not recognizing again, boundaries... and what 'respect' really is. 

I don't know what you want to do, but I could see where this would push you to the edge. Basically more deception and stuff he's keeping from you.... ugh.... 

What the hell did he cover in his counseling? Did the therapist miss the week on honesty?


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## Openminded

What it means to me is that he probably had very deep feelings for her and still could but decided to rebuild his marriage with you. She obviously still cares about him. He absolutely should not have contacted her. And you don't feel you can tell him you know -- under the circumstances. So wait and see if it happens again. If it does then you have a serious problem.


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## asia

Hardtohandle said:


> Can you pin it on cell phone records ? Meaning you found out that way about the call ?
> 
> I get what you're saying.. It wasn't like he said his marriage was a mistake and wishes he was with her. Its was sort of comforting and today I can understand how he feels. Trust me 6 or 7 months ago I couldn't.
> 
> I would not give up the bugging even if it meant never bringing this up because of what it offers you.
> 
> I have issues with the BS on therapy and I have issues with the Meds.. I cried myself to sleep and I woke up crying some days.. Suck it up.. Especially since he is the one that fvcked this all up..


I thought about doing that HTH but I know if I bring that up, the contents of the conversation would come pouring out of my mouth. How could he NOT regret being with her when it has almost destroyed us? How could he admit to her he has to take meds to get himself right after their relationship ended? How can he still feel she is a great person and was SOOOOO good to him during their relationship? How can he be so emotionally guarded about them that he can't bring himself to talk about it? Was it that darn meaningful??? "Oh yeah, I asked my wife for divorce and was planning to marry you". Somebody cut my throat........


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## Rugs

It sounds like your husband was honest and I think that is a good thing.

Things he said might hurt you, but affairs hurt. It seems like he is trying, and we are all human. I don't know if I could resist the temptation to call my AP back. (I was never an AP) but just saying.....

I would just keep monitoring at his point. I would not base my desicions on the above call. Much better than you could have heard IMO.


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## badmemory

asia said:


> Thanks for the replies. He doesn't know I know. *I don't want him to know about taping his calls and that's the only way I could bring it up*.
> 
> I am interested in the content of their conversation and what that means for me. Granted he hasn't been in touch with her so that's a huge plus. It sounded like they were not going to be in touch again but the things they talked about are killing me.


If you think that it's more important that he not find out how you know, than to take action for what he did; then you've already made your decision.

Me? I wouldn't give a rat's arse if my spouse knew I was bugging her or not. If her prior infidelity wasn't reason enough; confirming the contact would be.


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## russell28

Openminded said:


> What it means to me is that he probably had very deep feelings for her and still could but decided to rebuild his marriage with you. She obviously still cares about him. He absolutely should not have contacted her. And you don't feel you can tell him you know -- under the circumstances. So wait and see if it happens again. If it does then you have a serious problem.


I think she already has a serious problem.. He called his AP and spoke with her for two hours, and didn't tell his wife that he's in R with. Big problem imo...


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## Rugs

Well, Russell28 does have a good point. He should have told you but I'm sure he is just protecting himself. Two hours IS a very long time for a blow-off conversation.

Is OW married? I would expose her too if I was going to confront.


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## Openminded

asia said:


> I thought about doing that HTH but I know if I bring that up, the contents of the conversation would come pouring out of my mouth. How could he NOT regret being with her when it has almost destroyed us? How could he admit to her he has to take meds to get himself right after their relationship ended? How can he still feel she is a great person and was SOOOOO good to him during their relationship? How can he be so emotionally guarded about them that he can't bring himself to talk about it? Was it that darn meaningful??? "Oh yeah, I asked my wife for divorce and was planning to marry you". Somebody cut my throat........


He cared deeply for her. And he still might. But he decided to stay with you. And he's apparently trying hard to make that work. That's what you need to focus on if you are going to reconcile with him.


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## 3Xnocharm

A TWO HOUR conversation?? AND he hasnt told you?? Sorry, but that would be it for me, it would be divorce time.


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## lisab0105

If I overhead my husband telling his AP that he DOESN'T regret 

her and he never cheated on her...:gun::FIREdevil:issed::wtf::banghead::tool::moon:
There isn't anything on the planet that could keep me from going off on him and then her for calling him.


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## Hope1964

Don't you guys do regular marriage work? Or MC? Can't you bring it up by asking him if there's anything he wants to tell you? Why do you have to tell him his phone's bugged? Just tell him you know, period. You don't have to tell how you know.

If my husband did that and didn't volunteer it, I'd ask him if he had anything to tell me and tell him he had one chance to do so. If he didn't tell me, divorce would be the next thing I'd be doing. If he did tell me, I would CONSIDER staying with him, but it would mean months of recovery, lots more MC and other work he'd have to do, and I still might decide in a few months things were over.

You can't keep this a secret. You need to address it.


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## Pluto2

He's lying about no contact. And you think you should lie about knowing about the call. This deception will get you nowhere.
Tell him you know about the contact, don't tell him how because honestly that doesn't matter. Don't mention what was said. He called her and didn't tell you and that violated the terms of the R. Fess up that you don't trust him and are thinking about going forward with D.
IMO, he needs to know that his deceit hurts, and covering up doesn't mean it didn't happen. Maybe it is a slip and he opens up to you and honestly tries to R in a meaningful way. But if he becomes angry and resentful, then your R is jeopardy.


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## russell28

I think if you're going to reconcile, one thing you'll want going forward is no sneaking.. no lying, no deception.. no two hour contact with the AP, and not telling you. 

He may have cared for her deeply at one time, but if he's in true R, he should be repulsed by his actions with her. She should now represent the person that helped him to almost destroy his life, not some wonderful ex girlfriend. She should be a person he would want to run from if he saw her in public, not someone he would stop and have a two hour conversation with. Who knows, that might lead to meeting for coffee... so they can talk some more, about how they need to end the friendship.

Basically, in my case, and more than likely in this case.. the question was asked 'what would you do if the other person contacts you', and the answer was 'i'll let you know right away'. Did that happen? In this case no...


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## asia

I am almost falling apart over hearing how she met all his needs and was good for him. YOU HAVE A WIFE THAT HAS BEEN GOOD TO YOU FOR YEARS!!!!!! And he kept saying over and over again he doesn't regret or have remorse over her and their relationship.

Openminded, thank you. Your words have compassion that makes me calm down slightly but I am feeling like the emotion icons in Lisa's comment.....lol.

He did tell her he was happy when she asked. She also asked if he thought our marriage was going to work. He shuttered (caught off guard) and said he did not go in to it thinking it wouldn't. Not a hard emphatic YES. Even with him being cold, she probably thinks she has a chance if she wanted him back. I honestly think he is doing everything he can to focus on our family. 

He does have some things she got him that they spoke of and he laughingly said he still likes them. 

If he was 100% committed to our marriage, he would have not called back. If he was 80% committed he would have told me. If he was 70% committed he would have not said half of the things he did to her. I would rather he kept all of that "OW gushing" to himself and not given her any satisfaction that she affected him at all. So does that mean he is only somewhat committed? He told her our marriage was bleak at first but getting better. The few things I mentioned here were the only times he mentioned the marriage.....never once said he loved me. I guess that is implied since he is here but it would have been great to hear him tell her that. Instead, after everything I am going through.....he doesn't regret ever having an intimate relationship. Sorry I am repeating myself. I am just all in my emotions and none one to tell this to.


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## lisab0105

asia said:


> I am almost falling apart over hearing how she met all his needs and was good for him. YOU HAVE A WIFE THAT HAS BEEN GOOD TO YOU FOR YEARS!!!!!! And he kept saying over and over again he doesn't regret or have remorse over her and their relationship.
> 
> Openminded, thank you. Your words have compassion that makes me calm down slightly but I am feeling like the emotion icons in Lisa's comment.....lol.
> 
> He did tell her he was happy when she asked. She also asked if he thought our marriage was going to work. He shuttered (caught off guard) and said he did not go in to it thinking it wouldn't. Not a hard emphatic YES. Even with him being cold, she probably thinks she has a chance if she wanted him back. I honestly think he is doing everything he can to focus on our family.
> 
> He does have some things she got him that they spoke of and he laughingly said he still likes them.
> 
> If he was 100% committed to our marriage, he would have not called back. If he was 80% committed he would have told me. If he was 70% committed he would have not said half of the things he did to her. I would rather he kept all of that "OW gushing" to himself and not given her any satisfaction that she affected him at all. So does that mean he is only somewhat committed? He told her our marriage was bleak at first but getting better. The few things I mentioned here were the only times he mentioned the marriage.....never once said he loved me. I guess that is implied since he is here but it would have been great to hear him tell her that. Instead, after everything I am going through.....he doesn't regret ever having an intimate relationship. Sorry I am repeating myself. I am just all in my emotions and none one to tell this to.


Asia, there are ALOT of things that can send a BS over the edge...and your husband has done every single one of them. It is going to take a lot for me to walk away for good from my cheating no good asshat fiancé...but if I overheard a phone call like you did...I think that is all I would need. I will never let myself be a consolation prize. Don't let your husband do that to you.


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## 4myson

I am in a similar situation. I found out with VAR that my WH had contact. It was 15 minutes in a coffee shop parking lot so he could pick up something from her for his friend. I am not okay with it AT ALL, but still undecided about how to confront without revealing. I know my WH, and the way he is he would say things to make her feel better thinking he's doing a good thing. Is it possible your WH said he didn't regret her, etc. because he feels badly about how he treated her as well? Not saying she deserves it, or he should be doing it, just putting it out there. He made the choice to R with you and told her that. Even though the part of me that is still very bitter hates to admit it, WSs are human and humans are flawed and make stupid mistakes like breaking NC thinking they have good intentions. I would say don't reveal and keep monitoring for sure. So sorry for the pain you have to endure from monitoring. I know it all too well.


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## asia

russell28 said:


> He was eating up her 'needing' him, feeding his ego, and not recognizing again, boundaries... and what 'respect' really is.
> 
> 
> russell28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh that woman played it real cool. Didn't let on she wanted anything other than to catch up and see how he was doing. Said she had been thinking of him lately and really had nothing to call or really say. If I didn't know any better I would have believed she didn't want anything. Ha!
> 
> 
> 
> russell28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what you want to do, but I could see where this would push you to the edge. Basically more deception and stuff he's keeping from you.... ugh....
> 
> What the hell did he cover in his counseling? Did the therapist miss the week on honesty?
> 
> 
> 
> Crazy funny!!!!!
> 
> His counseling was IC.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Shaggy

I'd advise that he must get rid of each and everything she got him, every last thing.

Further I'd like to suggest that he needs to change cell numbers, with you adding his old number onto your phone or a phone you control so you are the one who gets the call the next time from the OW because there will be more. She was fishing for contact and she got it for 2 hrs.


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## Openminded

asia said:


> I am almost falling apart over hearing how she met all his needs and was good for him. YOU HAVE A WIFE THAT HAS BEEN GOOD TO YOU FOR YEARS!!!!!! And he kept saying over and over again he doesn't regret or have remorse over her and their relationship.
> 
> Openminded, thank you. Your words have compassion that makes me calm down slightly but I am feeling like the emotion icons in Lisa's comment.....lol.
> 
> He did tell her he was happy when she asked. She also asked if he thought our marriage was going to work. He shuttered (caught off guard) and said he did not go in to it thinking it wouldn't. Not a hard emphatic YES. Even with him being cold, she probably thinks she has a chance if she wanted him back. I honestly think he is doing everything he can to focus on our family.
> 
> He does have some things she got him that they spoke of and he laughingly said he still likes them.
> 
> If he was 100% committed to our marriage, he would have not called back. If he was 80% committed he would have told me. If he was 70% committed he would have not said half of the things he did to her. I would rather he kept all of that "OW gushing" to himself and not given her any satisfaction that she affected him at all. So does that mean he is only somewhat committed? He told her our marriage was bleak at first but getting better. The few things I mentioned here were the only times he mentioned the marriage.....never once said he loved me. I guess that is implied since he is here but it would have been great to hear him tell her that. Instead, after everything I am going through.....he doesn't regret ever having an intimate relationship. Sorry I am repeating myself. I am just all in my emotions and none one to tell this to.


I'm very sorry he called her back. I think the problem is that he's still struggling somewhat. We hate the idea our spouse could care deeply about someone else. I know I did. It was like a shot to the heart. I think he's trying though. I really do.


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## Hope1964

asia said:


> He does have some things she got him that they spoke of and he laughingly said he still likes them.


Scuse me?!?!?! He has things she gave him still??

This isn't reconciliation you are in with him. it's him sorry he got caught and intending to start things up again the moment he has a chance.

Are you in MC or doing regular marriage work together?


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## russell28

asia said:


> I am almost falling apart over hearing how she met all his needs and was good for him. YOU HAVE A WIFE THAT HAS BEEN GOOD TO YOU FOR YEARS!!!!!! And he kept saying over and over again he doesn't regret or have remorse over her and their relationship.
> 
> Openminded, thank you. Your words have compassion that makes me calm down slightly but I am feeling like the emotion icons in Lisa's comment.....lol.
> 
> He did tell her he was happy when she asked. She also asked if he thought our marriage was going to work. He shuttered (caught off guard) and said he did not go in to it thinking it wouldn't. Not a hard emphatic YES. Even with him being cold, she probably thinks she has a chance if she wanted him back. I honestly think he is doing everything he can to focus on our family.
> 
> *He does have some things she got him that they spoke of and he laughingly said he still likes them. *
> 
> If he was 100% committed to our marriage, he would have not called back. If he was 80% committed he would have told me. If he was 70% committed he would have not said half of the things he did to her. I would rather he kept all of that "OW gushing" to himself and not given her any satisfaction that she affected him at all. So does that mean he is only somewhat committed? He told her our marriage was bleak at first but getting better. The few things I mentioned here were the only times he mentioned the marriage.....never once said he loved me. I guess that is implied since he is here but it would have been great to hear him tell her that. Instead, after everything I am going through.....he doesn't regret ever having an intimate relationship. Sorry I am repeating myself. I am just all in my emotions and none one to tell this to.


He even keeps mementos, and you are okay with that? He should have willingly tossed all that out, without you even needing to ask... Did he tell *you *he regrets it? If so, then who is he lying to, her or you... if it's her, then why would he lie to her unless he's looking to keep her on the hook... Again, a simple "never call me again" click would have sufficed.


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## asia

4myson said:


> I am in a similar situation. I found out with VAR that my WH had contact. It was 15 minutes in a coffee shop parking lot so he could pick up something from her for his friend. I am not okay with it AT ALL, but still undecided about how to confront without revealing. I know my WH, and the way he is he would say things to make her feel better thinking he's doing a good thing. Is it possible your WH said he didn't regret her, etc. because he feels badly about how he treated her as well? Not saying she deserves it, or he should be doing it, just putting it out there. He made the choice to R with you and told her that. Even though the part of me that is still very bitter hates to admit it, WSs are human and humans are flawed and make stupid mistakes like breaking NC thinking they have good intentions. I would say don't reveal and keep monitoring for sure. So sorry for the pain you have to endure from monitoring. I know it all too well.


I thank you for that! It would make me feel a ton better if I thought that were true. But my husband asked to divorce me to be with her. So he was serious about her. Went as far as to tell her no one would ever disrespect her because he made sure all of their mutual friends knew it was his fault.....she is a perfect person who craps rainbows in his eyes. Lol.

From the conversation, she already knew we were together from FB. He blocked her online not because of the marriage but because it was hurting him and hindering him from moving on to not block her profile. This was only five months ago. He didn't admit that part but I was able to piece it together with other things and after listening to that conversation, know that was the real reason.

Being with me is the right thing to do. We both want to honor God with our marriage but this hurts. He didn't mention God one time in that phone call. 

Lisa is right, I don't want to be a consolation prize in my own marriage. Not sure if I am since he did decide to come back home and make things work. But what is really in his heart if she was so important to him? On the flip side, we have been having the best few months lately........


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## aug

asia said:


> The bad....he doesn't regret her or the time they had. He said that about a million times and apologized two million. *Went on and on about how great she was to him, how she made him a better man, she was a great girlfriend and how she is going to make someone a great wife.* *Told her he speaks highly about her whenever someone asks about her. * And here is the part that almost tore me in half. My husband reminded her of when he asked me for divorce on my birthday to be with her to make sure SHE knew how important she was to him at the time. He never mentioned his love for me and our life. He admitted to her that he had to go into therapy to get other THEIR relationship and that he takes meds (anti depressants and anxiety) to this very day. I thought he was depressed because he screwed up his life! He promised her that he didn't cheat on HER (umm excuse me, you cheated on ME with HER). And the best part, he couldn't go back and talk about anything that happened between them because he has boundaries he has to protect. He stopped therapy a long time ago but told her he goes every two or three months if he needs to. She asked how long it took him to get over her and at first he said months, then said "I don't know, it really took a long time". Indicating that he may still not be fully there!!!! I am so confused and hurt!





asia said:


> I thought about doing that HTH but I know if I bring that up, the contents of the conversation would come pouring out of my mouth. * How could he NOT regret being with her when it has almost destroyed us? How could he admit to her he has to take meds to get himself right after their relationship ended? * How can he still feel she is a great person and was SOOOOO good to him during their relationship? How can he be so emotionally guarded about them that he can't bring himself to talk about it? *Was it that darn meaningful??? "Oh yeah, I asked my wife for divorce and was planning to marry you".* Somebody cut my throat........





asia said:


> Instead, after everything I am going through.....*he doesn't regret ever having an intimate relationship. * Sorry I am repeating myself. I am just all in my emotions and none one to tell this to.



You now know for sure that the memory of his affair is engraved into his head and viewed with fondness, not hatred. 

Can you live with that? Can you accept when things in your marriage goes bad, he's capable of abandoning you (his cheating) or has another avenue now to escape (his memory of the affair)?


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## Shaggy

Hope1964 said:


> Scuse me?!?!?! He has things she gave him still??
> 
> This isn't reconciliation you are in with him. it's him sorry he got caught and intending to start things up again the moment he has a chance.
> 
> Are you in MC or doing regular marriage work together?


I often point out that there is different kinds of R.

One is where the WS has stopped sleeping and meeting with the AP, but they aren't fully committed to the marriage above all else.

The other is where the WS has returned to the marriage and is loyal to the BS and the marriage is their first and top priority in life.

Unfortunately , your husband is in the first type.

That's why he called her back. He knew he shouldn't , but he chose talking to her over loyalty to you.


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## alte Dame

This is quite bad. Two hours? That was just the start of their rekindling things, I would bet.

You sound so hurt, which is completely understandable, but you also sound defensive, which is not understandable. He is the one in the wrong. And who cares how you found out. The only really important thing is that you know the truth.

I would kick him out after hearing all of this. How many chances does he get to crush your heart?


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## aug

asia said:


> Being with me is the right thing to do. *We both want to honor God with our marriage but this hurts.* He didn't mention God one time in that phone call.



I dont think this view is correct. Your husband's adultery is not a way to honor his marriage.


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## russell28

If you've been having a great month.. or things are going good, how about giving him a chance, throw him a bone.. say 'you've been acting funny lately.. you haven't bumped into the AP by chance, or anything like that?'.. If he says no, might try 'so still no contact since DDay?'... and when he says 'why do you ask'? just a simple... Just your demeanor change... 

Once you get the conversation going, you might ask again if he regrets her.. etc.. see what answers he gives. Then ask if he would tell her that he has no regrets if he did get to talk to her... Keep pushing it, make him wonder if you know about the conversation without actually coming out with it. See what kind of bull he slings your way.


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## Jasel

I believe in laying down consequences when lines are drawn and ultimatums are given. Honestly, to me anyway, the content of their conversation doesn't matter nearly as much as the fact that you guys apparently had a NC agreement that your husband broke and had a 2 hour phone conversation with the OW.

And based on the content of what you claim you heard it really sounds like he's going through the motions of a reconciliation moreso than genuinely wanting to reconcile. Especially since it sounds like he has no remorse for what he feels he and the OW had regardless of how shady it was. You sound much more invested in reconciling than he does.

You can choose to confront him, lay down consequences, or just try to ignore it and pretend everything is okay and hope for the best. But one thing I've learned here is when people don't face consequences for the actions they take, especially when they explicitly take actions they know they shouldn't, they just feel more emboldened/entitled to get away with even more.


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## asia

russell28 said:


> If you've been having a great month.. or things are going good, how about giving him a chance, throw him a bone.. say 'you've been acting funny lately.. you haven't bumped into the AP by chance, or anything like that?'.. If he says no, might try 'so still no contact since DDay?'... and when he says 'why do you ask'? just a simple... Just your demeanor change...
> 
> Once you get the conversation going, you might ask again if he regrets her.. etc.. see what answers he gives. Then ask if he would tell her that he has no regrets if he did get to talk to her... Keep pushing it, make him wonder if you know about the conversation without actually coming out with it. See what kind of bull he slings your way.


Russell that is great. If I ask him that and he says he would tell her he regrets it, then I know he's lying and his feelings are real for her. Because he would have no need to spare her feelings, unless he thought he was being mean and remember.....she was SOOOOO good to him and met all his needs. 

I am just scared that we have come all of this way and if they really are serious about no more communication, then I would have messed up the good work we've been doing. I honestly and as objectively as I can be think they have no intention of calling each other. They said the would probably see each other in passing but he wouldn't act like he doesn't know her or anything. There is only a 10% chance of that every happening. If it wasn't adultery, it would have been two ex's catching up and ending the conversation politely. But it is adultery that has torn us apart so I am not too happy about their talking at all!


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## Hope1964

Hope1964 said:


> Are you in MC or doing regular marriage work together?


Can you answer this?


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## russell28

asia said:


> Russell that is great. If I ask him that and he says he would tell her he regrets it, then I know he's lying and his feelings are real for her. Because he would have no need to spare her feelings, unless he thought he was being mean and remember.....she was SOOOOO good to him and met all his needs.
> 
> I am just scared that we have come all of this way and if they really are serious about no more communication, then I would have messed up the good work we've been doing. I honestly and as objectively as I can be think they have no intention of calling each other. They said the would probably see each other in passing but he wouldn't act like he doesn't know her or anything. There is only a 10% chance of that every happening. If it wasn't adultery, it would have been two ex's catching up and ending the conversation politely. But it is adultery that has torn us apart so I am not too happy about their talking at all!


Have you really come far, if he's still not being honest with you though... You may feel okay because he's making an effort, and he has no AP, so you're getting him 100% right now..., but he's also shown that he doesn't understand boundaries, or where he crosses them, or how important it is to be honest with you right now. 

If this is a true R, and he gets contacted by his AP.. his first reaction should have been panic, panic that you would find out and it would ruin his R. He would have fear that if you found out that she contacted him, you might assume that he contacted her back or other things you don't know about. He would scramble to make sure you know everything. He would let you hear her voicemail, tell you he didn't call her back, ask you what you think he should do. Should he call her back with you on speaker phone? Change his phone number? Etc.. Not sneak and call her for 2 hours and then not tell you. That's not a person that's looking to fix his boundary issues or that's putting his wife and marriage first.



Hope1964 said:


> Can you answer this?


It sounds like he had IC... I would think they need MC, a very good one. I fear he might have forgot to mention his affair in IC...


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## badmemory

Jasel said:


> I believe in laying down consequences when lines are drawn and ultimatums are given. Honestly, to me anyway, the content of their conversation doesn't matter nearly as much as the fact that you guys apparently had a NC agreement that your husband broke and had a 2 hour phone conversation with the OW.
> 
> And based on the content of what you claim you heard it really sounds like he's going through the motions of a reconciliation moreso than genuinely wanting to reconcile. Especially since it sounds like he has no remorse for what he feels he and the OW had regardless of how shady it was. You sound much more invested in reconciling than he does.
> 
> *You can choose to confront him, lay down consequences*, or just try to ignore it and pretend everything is okay and hope for the best. But one thing I've learned here is when people don't face consequences for the actions they take, especially when they explicitly take actions they know they shouldn't, they just feel more emboldened/entitled to get away with even more.


I agree Jasel; but what consequences? That's the thing about lines in the sand. Once you erase it and move it back, you've demonstrated that you didn't really mean what you said. 

Perhaps separating, doing the 180, and stopping just short of D might get his attention - but still, it's just drawing a new line.


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## asia

Hope1964 said:


> Can you answer this?


No we did MC previously in the past. We do marriage work and things have greatly improved. We do more things together and with our daughter. My husband actually ended the call with her to tend to our daughter's desires to play. He is trying, that much I can say.

I know this probably sounds crazy but one of the things that worry is his inability to talk to her about anything. He didn't give her the chance to go into any detail (and I wanted to know some of these things) because he "didn't have it in him". What does that actually mean? It seems like it would damage his mental health to discuss it with her or take him back to a place he doesn't want to go. On the surface I should be happy about that but it troubles me dearly. He should be so happy in our marriage that even if he did call her back, he should have no issues with talking about anything if there was no emotional attachment.

But even with us, we try to just grow and not talk about it as much as we did.


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## russell28

badmemory said:


> I agree Jasel; but what consequences? That's the thing about lines in the sand. Once you erase it and move it back, you've demonstrated that you didn't really mean what you said.
> 
> Perhaps separating, doing the 180, and stopping just short of D might get his attention - but still, it's just drawing a new line.


This is my thought.. that first line you put down, was a big one.. When it gets crossed, that speaks volumes.

Honesty.. it's a lie by omission, and that honesty line is a big one. If she tells him, he'll say "I was protecting you", which is basically the mindset that a person that cheats has. Keep certain facts and details from my spouse, I can pick and choose what they get to know.

My problem with this person, is they seem to have issues understanding what NC and honesty mean to a marriage reconciliation. They are two of the keys.. Now he's taken tons of work, and thrown it all away because he's deceiving her again. So he's showing signs of no regret.. no true remorse.. still has boundary issues.. and still lies and deceives (aka told her he'd have no contact). He sets his R back to comfort his OW.. and himself.. but has no thoughts of his wife.

That's quite a few lines he crossed.



asia said:


> But even with us, we try to just grow and not talk about it as much as we did.


It sounds like you might not have talked enough about it? You might want to revisit a few topics, boundaries, honesty and regret..


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## lisab0105

asia said:


> Russell that is great. If I ask him that and he says he would tell her he regrets it, then I know he's lying and his feelings are real for her. Because he would have no need to spare her feelings, unless he thought he was being mean and remember.....she was SOOOOO good to him and met all his needs.
> 
> I am just scared that we have come all of this way and if they really are serious about no more communication, then I would have messed up the good work we've been doing. I honestly and as objectively as I can be think they have no intention of calling each other. They said the would probably see each other in passing but he wouldn't act like he doesn't know her or anything. There is only a 10% chance of that every happening. If it wasn't adultery, it would have been two ex's catching up and ending the conversation politely. But it is adultery that has torn us apart so I am not too happy about their talking at all!



Asia, *HE* messed up the hard work, not you. Him. He called her. He waxed poetic about her, about the time they spent, the things she gave him, how wonderful she is..blah blah blah. Everything in your reconciliation with him has now turned into a lie because of that phone conversation. He isn't lying to her. He saves that for you. Your husband is with you out of obligation. Period. It f*cking sucks and hurts like a b*itch.

ETA..He was only holding back going down memory lane in detail because HE WANTS TO GO BACK THERE SO BADLY. He doesn't stay out of that part of his brain because it disgusts him. Because it turned him into an ugly human being. He stays away because he wants to back there so badly, but can't live with the guilt he has towards you.


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## Openminded

He's not over her. He's trying to get there. All of us who have been betrayed want to believe that a switch gets thrown when a spouse decides to reconcile and they immediately forget their affair partner. That's not true for all. And I definitely don't think it's true here. 

He should have never have called her. But I do think he's trying to reconcile. And needs to work harder.


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## asia

lisab0105 said:


> Asia, *HE* messed up the hard work, not you. Him. He called her. He waxed poetic about her, about the time they spent, the things she gave him, how wonderful she is..blah blah blah. Everything in your reconciliation with him has now turned into a lie because of that phone conversation. He isn't lying to her. He saves that for you. Your husband is with you out of obligation. Period. It f*cking sucks and hurts like a b*itch.
> 
> ETA..He was only holding back going down memory lane in detail because HE WANTS TO GO BACK THERE SO BADLY. He doesn't stay out of that part of his brain because it disgusts him. Because it turned him into an ugly human being. He stays away because he wants to back there so badly, but can't live with the guilt he has towards you.


Ouch. That stung. I hate to think that though. Before I knew we were together for our daughter and I had begun to believe we could do this. I still do but what you are saying makes sense considering his cold demeanor to her on the call. If he was over it, he wouldn't be on the call period or at least more indifferent.


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## badmemory

lisab0105 said:


> Asia, .He was only holding back going down memory lane in detail because HE WANTS TO GO BACK THERE SO BADLY.


Asia,

You can grasp at rationalizations about what they talked about all you want, but lisa is right. If your husband was remorseful, he simply would not do what he did. One, he wouldn't risk it, and two, he wouldn't have *wanted* to call her back. 

There is more than one reason for insisting in no contact. Of course it prevents the A from continuing, but beyond that it's a test of remorse, and he failed miserably - even if you didn't catch him attempting to continue the A - this time.

So you're just in a bad spot right now. If you refuse for this to be a deal breaker for you, it's your life. But good gawd, at least give him a consequence that he'll not soon forget.


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## asia

Openminded said:


> He's not over her. He's trying to get there. All of us who have been betrayed want to believe that a switch gets thrown when a spouse decides to reconcile and they immediately forget their affair partner. That's not true for all. And I definitely don't think it's true here.
> 
> He should have never have called her. But I do think he's trying to reconcile. And needs to work harder.


Openminded, its been over a year now. Exactly when does he get over it?????? He is trying. I'm scared that he honestly and truly may be settling for our marriage instead of wanting it like I do. He does all the things I ask and he is more attentive and present and I was getting more secure. Now I am scared to have him out of my sight because of this call.


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## russell28

Openminded said:


> He's not over her. He's trying to get there. All of us who have been betrayed want to believe that a switch gets thrown when a spouse decides to reconcile and they immediately forget their affair partner. That's not true for all. And I definitely don't think it's true here.
> 
> He should have never have called her. But I do think he's trying to reconcile. And needs to work harder.


A switch SHOULD get thrown once you realize what the affair really was, and how the affair partner almost helped you destroy your life. You should feel like a selfish turd, and the AP should look to you as someone that helped you lower yourself to turd level. There should be no fondness there, or wonderful memories.. there should be a list of regrets. If there aren't, then the WS has no idea what they've really done, and they need a bigger blow to the head to knock them out of self delusion. This is someone that disrespected you, your marriage, your wife, themselves, and helped you do the same.. together you f''d up peoples lives, and you want to talk to that person for two hours why again? Because you're not over her? Seriously?

That's his idea of trying?

By calling her, he shows he still has a 'what she doesn't know won't hurt her' mentality. Bad... very bad.

By telling her 'remember in our NC, where I told you I would let you know if there was any contact... well she called....'
He's saying 'the R is more important than protecting myself or keeping my options open for a future affair with AP'

So yea, someone in a true R shouldn't forget the AP.. but they shouldn't remember them with fondness or no regrets either, they should have many regrets.. in fact, enough regrets where they have no desire to talk to the AP at all, because the AP should make them feel dirty and ashamed, not someone you'd want to talk to for two hours.. someone you'd want to run from, out of fear they'd do more damage to you and your life.

After he told his wife about his call from his OW.. he should have told her about how he regrets every moment of it, and mean it. If he doesn't, why is he in R again? Money? Kids? Nice house? Wants to keep his social standing?



asia said:


> Openminded, its been over a year now. Exactly when does he get over it?????? He is trying. I'm scared that he honestly and truly may be settling for our marriage instead of wanting it like I do. He does all the things I ask and he is more attentive and present and I was getting more secure. Now I am scared to have him out of my sight because of this call.


Of course you're afraid when he's out of your sight, he destroyed the little bit of trust you had built up over the past year... blew it all to hell with his poor choice to call her back instead of telling you she called. Stupid stupid stupid.... why would he risk that? Ask yourself that.... So sorry to be playing this role here, but I think you might need it. Stay strong.. stand up for yourself.

Just imagine, how much different it would have been if he'd come to you and said she called. You'd have built up a good bit more trust.. it would have helped put a few bricks on the wall of trust, instead of knocking it over.


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## Acoa

You don't have to reveal how you know. You can just say a little birdy told me you talked to OW. Watch carefully how he reacts, it will speak volumes for his intentions. If he focuses on how you know or denies it, end the conversation. Go to bed or kick him out. You don't have to explain yourself. If on the other hand he admits it and is remoresful, then let him know that calling her back was a violation of NC. The proper course of action would have been for him to tell you that she called, and let you listen to her voicemail. 

Either way, you need to decide do you keep giving him chances. What is the consequence for breaking NC? 

Regarding the content, that's almost a moot point. It's an opening. Even if they don't act on it for months or years, he left the door open to her, telling her how special it was. The only 'good' respsonse would have been for him to tell you that she left a VM and work with you to decide to ignore her or respond, and if to respond, how to respond.


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## workindad

No contact is no contact. Your husband broke it also by returning your call. 

Not telling you about it is lying. Another promise broken.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28

I like the little birdy idea... if he focuses on how you know, you can just say 'why is it important for me to tell you stuff, but you don't have to tell me stuff?' Then do the go to bed or kick him out thing


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## asia

Acoa said:


> You don't have to reveal how you know. You can just say a little birdy told me you talked to OW. Watch carefully how he reacts, it will speak volumes for his intentions. If he focuses on how you know or denies it, end the conversation. Go to bed or kick him out. You don't have to explain yourself. If on the other hand he admits it and is remoresful, then let him know that calling her back was a violation of NC. The proper course of action would have been for him to tell you that she called, and let you listen to her voicemail.
> 
> Either way, you need to decide do you keep giving him chances. What is the consequence for breaking NC?
> 
> Regarding the content, that's almost a moot point. It's an opening. Even if they don't act on it for months or years, he left the door open to her, telling her how special it was. The only 'good' respsonse would have been for him to tell you that she left a VM and work with you to decide to ignore her or respond, and if to respond, how to respond.


Its the content that is killing me the most Acoa! I can "somewhat" understand the curiosity since they really had no contact but I wish he would have not called back. 

What he said about not regretting their relationship and taking meds and was in therapy for his depression pretty much tell Ms Wonderful that she is the reason he is a mess, not because he screwed our marriage up. Even though he was cold and distant, almost mean to her, he still expressed his admiration for her and wanted all good things for her life. There maybe a ton of guilt he has for what he's done to me, that much I am sure of. But it's been too long for him to not be over her. We are happy now, why did he have to take the call??? Just venting....... How can he be so emotionally guarded that he refused to discuss their past in any real capacity? It should be nothing to him. She should be nothing to him. But that homewrecker mattered enough for him to reassure her of his commitment back then. He picked his real, non fantasy family but this fantasy seems to be never ending!!!


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## asia

And Acoa, I would run my mouth like crazy if I mentioned it and he lied or stonewalled. I would probably go to jail and lose all respect in my church...lol.


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## MattMatt

Your recovery is going nicely? 

Well, actually, I am sorry, but based on that conversation and the deliberate breach of NC, I would have to wonder if it really was?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

I went back and re-read your first post....I dont see anything that mentioned him telling her NOT to contact ever again, during that two hour call. Is that correct? If so, then that alone speaks VOLUMES. 

You know, in all the back and forth that me and my exH have had since his ridiculous remarriage to his first wife, he never ONCE told me to never contact him again. (you'd have to read my threads to understand how many times we "got back together") You know what that says to me? That says to me that he wants to leave his options open should he ever decide to have an affair again.


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## CH

It's been said, time to take him to the cleaners!!!! He's still taking her over you. I'm going to be pretty blunt here so don't take offense to it.

IMO, he's staying because it's cheaper to keep you as a wife than divorcing you.

The conversation should have lasted 10-15 seconds.

H - Don't call me again, I'm married. Click.

Not, you're so great, I would have divorced her on your b-day (just WOW, my wife would have kicked me in the gonads for that remark!!!)...

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you're Asian. Being Asian myself I know the "stick with your man no matter what and protect your family..."
BTW, why do you think my wife stayed with me after what I did to her.


It's from an outdated time, you stick with your man/family if he values you and his family above all everything else.


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## Dad&Hubby

asia said:


> Russell that is great. If I ask him that and he says he would tell her he regrets it, then I know he's lying and his feelings are real for her. Because he would have no need to spare her feelings, unless he thought he was being mean and remember.....she was SOOOOO good to him and met all his needs.
> 
> I am just scared that we have come all of this way and if they really are serious about no more communication, then I would have messed up the good work we've been doing. I honestly and as objectively as I can be think they have no intention of calling each other. They said the would probably see each other in passing but he wouldn't act like he doesn't know her or anything. There is only a 10% chance of that every happening. If it wasn't adultery, it would have been two ex's catching up and ending the conversation politely. But it is adultery that has torn us apart so I am not too happy about their talking at all!


Asia, remember...YOU hold the cards. You choose at this point if your marriage continues or not.

From a logical standpoint, you can't be mad at him for his feelings. I don't know your story or how long ago Dday was, but if you subscribe to affairs being like an addiction, than your husband was at a party, someone handed him a drink, he sniffed it, remembered the joys it brought for a fleeting moment and then put the drink down. Yes he still carries fond memories etc. How you want to deal with him gradually working through those feelings are up to you.

BUT!!! You CAN hold him accountable for his actions.

1. He broke NC
2. He hasn't told you
3. He's kept mementos of her (which makes it harder for him to let go of her completely)

THOSE 3 things would push me over the edge. I can understand a WS who's going through R soon after their affair blew up having emotional turmoil about their AP. I get that. I wouldn't want to try and work through it, cheating is a deal breaker for me, but still...I can understand it. But, like having the affair....They OWN 100% of their actions.


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## asia

3Xnocharm said:


> I went back and re-read your first post....I dont see anything that mentioned him telling her NOT to contact ever again, during that two hour call. Is that correct? If so, then that alone speaks VOLUMES.
> 
> You know, in all the back and forth that me and my exH have had since his ridiculous remarriage to his first wife, he never ONCE told me to never contact him again. (you'd have to read my threads to understand how many times we "got back together") You know what that says to me? That says to me that he wants to leave his options open should he ever decide to have an affair again.


You know, you are exactly right. He never said flat out do NOT contact me again. He sort of implied that by saying they couldn't be buddies out of respect for his wife. They ended the conversation with her saying call anytime and him saying likewise but I think it was more of a nice gesture than he will actually be taking her phone calls. He didn't slam the door shut.


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## 3Xnocharm

asia said:


> You know, you are exactly right. He never said flat out do NOT contact me again. He sort of implied that by saying they couldn't be buddies out of respect for his wife. They ended the conversation with her saying call anytime and him saying likewise but I think it was more of a nice gesture than he will actually be taking her phone calls. He didn't slam the door shut.


Yeah...NOT GOOD.


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## highwood

Yes I agree with the others..NC is NC not NC sometimes excpet when the person leaves me a voice mail.

I would not hold back a confrontation..I would say so you were talking to your OW again..who cares how you know..that should be the last thing on his and your mind.


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## mineforever

Asia...you know you don't have to tell him anything about bugging the phone. All I ever said to hubby was ... "Do you have somethig you need to tell me about?" I would say it in a firm voice and then say "If you have done something it is always better to tell me than for me to find out on my own." Worked every time for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jung_admirer

asia said:


> I have been spinning in my head for weeks now. Can someone help me out with this one? I feel good on one side and terrible on the other. Does this mean our recovery is doomed? I am trying to look at this positively since he told her he had to respect me. Help!


The truth is your WH is still invested in the AP. This is what needs to change if you decide to continue with R. You can't want your WH to merely comport his behavior and indulge your every whim out of a sense of guilt or shame. You want him to love you for the amazing person you are, in awe of your strengths and supportive where you need nurturing. This comes with time and attention as you work to reconnect.

You need to sit down to reiterate boundaries, needs and expectations, both yours and his. Your WH may need a little IC to cut the cord with the AP. To initiate this conversation, all you need to say is that you are feeling uncertain and you need some emotional support. (Let's talk after we put D to bed) Kindest Regards-


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## Catherine602

Her call was a fishing expidition. She wanted to see if he was open to restarting the affair. He seems to have a strong emotional attachment. If you read about the types of affairs, this is the type that is very difficult to give up. NC is absolutely necessary. 

Since he took her call, the possibility of further contact is highly likely. If they continue contact, the affair if likely to start again. Are you willing to stay married if he maintains contact and the affair starts again? if so you can do what you are doing now. You are rationalizing and ignoring what is obvoiusly a severe threat to your marriage. 

The fact that they invited each other to stay in contact virtually guarantees that they will contact each other. You seem to want to stay married to him under any circumstances. The best thing you can do is to give him an ultimatum. Stop contact or get D. 

You dont seem to be able to do that because you want the marriage under any circumstances. In that case be ready to have a painful existence. You will have to tolerate a 3rd person in the marriage and the possibility that he will D you when it is convenient for him. I am not sure why he wants to stay in the marriage. 

Do you really know why? Is it because he loves you more than OW? For the kids, finances? If he can get away with having both of you, the woman he cannot leave for practical reasons and a woman he loves. It is up to you what you want. I know that I am being blunt and I may be wrong. I hope so however, based on what I have read here it is likely that they will not be able to resist each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

Eventually, if you do nothing, they'll get back into their affair.


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## carmen ohio

asia said:


> The title says it all. I have a recorder on his cell phone and can get copies off all incoming, outgoing, and vm calls. After all of this time, she decided to "touch base" with my husband and give him a call. She left him a vm and he called back. They talked for almost 2 hours.
> 
> There were good things and bad things. The good things were they haven't been in secret contact. He told her they couldn't be friends (she didn't ask, he offered that up) because he had to respect me. He did NOT want to talk about their relationship and wanted to leave whatever they had to say to each other in the past. He was somewhat cold and distant towards her, almost sounding like a robot. He actually said if he thought she wanted some deep profound discussion that he would not have called her back because he doesn't "have it" to give emotionally.
> 
> The bad....he doesn't regret her or the time they had. He said that about a million times and apologized two million. Went on and on about how great she was to him, how she made him a better man, she was a great girlfriend and how she is going to make someone a great wife. Told her he speaks highly about her whenever someone asks about her. And here is the part that almost tore me in half. My husband reminded her of when he asked me for divorce on my birthday to be with her to make sure SHE knew how important she was to him at the time. He never mentioned his love for me and our life. He admitted to her that he had to go into therapy to get other THEIR relationship and that he takes meds (anti depressants and anxiety) to this very day. I thought he was depressed because he screwed up his life! He promised her that he didn't cheat on HER (umm excuse me, you cheated on ME with HER). And the best part, he couldn't go back and talk about anything that happened between them because he has boundaries he has to protect. He stopped therapy a long time ago but told her he goes every two or three months if he needs to. She asked how long it took him to get over her and at first he said months, then said "I don't know, it really took a long time". Indicating that he may still not be fully there!!!! I am so confused and hurt!
> 
> My thought is if he was "over" her, he could have talked about any and everything she wanted to talk about and it would have been no sweat off his back. I know he shouldn't have spoken with her at all. We have a really good chance here. This is the first time in our marriage that I feel he was/is doing the work. And he told her he was doing everything he could be to a better man and live his life right. He said to her he only thinks about the future and blocks out things (almost like he was going to block out their conversation). They hung up telling each other good things and he could call her anytime. He returned the gesture but I don't think they plan on calling each other again.
> 
> I am always nervous but was feeling better each day until I heard this conversation. What am I supposed to do with this information? I don't want to tell him I have his phone bugged. Our recovery is going nicely. I almost understand why he talked to her since they obviously had not spoken since their D-Day but he should have never returned her call and told me instantly she tried to contact him. The very fact that she called him makes me sick, the worse is he called back.
> 
> I have been spinning in my head for weeks now. Can someone help me out with this one? I feel good on one side and terrible on the other. Does this mean our recovery is doomed? I am trying to look at this positively since he told her he had to respect me. Help!


Dear asia,

I understand how confused you could be about this (the "good things" and the "bad things") but I really think that you are over-analyzing it. Let's consider the "bad" first:

- He promised NC and he broke that promise;

- He promised to be honest with you and he hasn't been honest (honesty isn't just about not telling lies, it's also about telling the truth, especially when the truth hurts;

- He talked to her for two hours;

- He said things to her that a married person should only share with his or her spouse;

- He spoke warmly about their illicit relationship; and

- He didn't close the door to further contact with his AP, in fact he invited it.

Now let's consider the "good":

- There is nothing good about the fact that he called her back, what he said to her, how he said it or that he hasn't confessed it to you.

So here's the score: bad 6, good 0.

Now let's consider your possible responses to what has happened:

1) You can do nothing and hope that he doesn't speak to her again;

2) You can raise it with him, tell him how hurt and angry you are and ask him not to do it again;

3) You can raise it with him, tell him how hurt and angry you are that he broke his NC promise and tell him that if he ever speaks to her again you will divorce him;

4) You can raise it with him and tell him that, because he has broken his NC promise, you intend to file for divorce; or

5) You can simply file for divorce and, when he is served the divorce papers and asks you why you did it, tell him that it is because he broke his NC promise.

So, which should you do?

Response 1 is based entirely on the hope that a cheater who broke his NC promise will, someday, start to do right by you and your marriage. This doesn't seem likely to work.

Response 2 may seem to be a little better but, given that you have already given him a second chance, your failure to give him any consequences for breaking his NC promise is more likely to cause him to think that he can get away with even more.

Response 3 seems better still but isn't it really just repeating what you've already told him (NC with his AP)? If so, then what he will hear is that, when you say "don't do that or there will be consequences," you really mean "don't do that or there will be no consequences." Thus, response 3 is hardly better than 1 or 2.

Response 4 sounds really tough: "I plan to divorce you for breaking your NC promise." But, if you really do intend to divorce him, what is the point of telling him first? He will interpret it as you giving him an opportunity to make up an excuse or promise, yet again, not to do things a husband shouldn't do. So, basically, you will be back to square one in your R with your WH.

Response 5, as you can see, is really the only one that sends the right message to your WH: "I've had it with your cheating, sneaking and lying." It let's him know that you are not a paper tiger but rather a woman with standards that he must live up to if he wants to be your H. Based on what I've read about him and your relationship in your previous threads, my guess is that, when he receives the divorce papers, he will likely come crawling to you on his knees begging for one last chance -- which is exactly the position he should be in.

Frankly, I don't expect you to choose response 5. Most BSs don't because they are afraid that it will "backfire," i.e., that the WS will say not ask for another chance. What they fail to realize is that, if this happens, it means that the R was false and that the WS was not really committed to the marriage.

I wish you the best whatever you decide to do.


P.S.: After writing but before posting this, I thought of another response: kick him out of the house for a while. That will send him a strong message and give him some real consequences.


----------



## clipclop2

he spoke for 2 hours . 

he told her she could call anytime . your interpretation of it really doesn't matter. you keep trying to cushion the blow instead of accepting what he really did .

he called her . 

he spoke with her for 2 hours 

he let her know that his feelings for her were deep and that perhaps she's not even over her yet .

he hasn't told you about the conversation .

it is unlikely he will .

look darling I think you have to accept that your reconciliation has been one sided . he's there in body but not in spirit .

I think you should kick him out . 

he said all the things that he wouldn't do out of respect for you except for the most important one which is to not talk to her .

look at his actions not his words .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrMathias

mineforever said:


> Asia...you know you don't have to tell him anything about bugging the phone. All I ever said to hubby was ... "Do you have somethig you need to tell me about?" I would say it in a firm voice and then say "If you have done something it is always better to tell me than for me to find out on my own." Worked every time for me.


I'd try that suggestion first. 

Your H could swing either way- he may find the strength to resist, it sounds like he's _trying_, or more likely the POSOW fanned the dying embers and they'll start up again. Clearly she isn't done yet. 

Sorry you're going through this. Second time arounds suck.


----------



## Shaggy

I'm predicting that the affair has a fair chance of restarting if nothing is done to stop it.


----------



## russell28

carmen ohio said:


> Dear asia,
> 
> I understand how confused you could be about this (the "good things" and the "bad things") but I really think that you are over-analyzing it. Let's consider the "bad" first:
> 
> - He promised NC and he broke that promise;
> 
> - He promised to be honest with you and he hasn't been honest (honesty isn't just about not telling lies, it's also about telling the truth, especially when the truth hurts;
> 
> - He talked to her for two hours;
> 
> - He said things to her that a married person should only share with his or her spouse;
> 
> - He spoke warmly about their illicit relationship; and
> 
> - He didn't close the door to further contact with his AP, in fact he invited it.
> 
> Now let's consider the "good":
> 
> - There is nothing good about the fact that he called her back, what he said to her, how he said it or that he hasn't confessed it to you.
> 
> So here's the score: bad 6, good 0.
> 
> Now let's consider your possible responses to what has happened:
> 
> 1) You can do nothing and hope that he doesn't speak to her again;
> 
> 2) You can raise it with him, tell him how hurt and angry you are and ask him not to do it again;
> 
> 3) You can raise it with him, tell him how hurt and angry you are that he broke his NC promise and tell him that if he ever speaks to her again you will divorce him;
> 
> 4) You can raise it with him and tell him that, because he has broken his NC promise, you intend to file for divorce; or
> 
> 5) You can simply file for divorce and, when he is served the divorce papers and asks you why you did it, tell him that it is because he broke his NC promise.
> 
> So, which should you do?
> 
> Response 1 is based entirely on the hope that a cheater who broke his NC promise will, someday, start to do right by you and your marriage. This doesn't seem likely to work.
> 
> Response 2 may seem to be a little better but, given that you have already given him a second chance, your failure to give him any consequences for breaking his NC promise is more likely to cause him to think that he can get away with even more.
> 
> Response 3 seems better still but isn't it really just repeating what you've already told him (NC with his AP)? If so, then what he will hear is that, when you say "don't do that or there will be consequences," you really mean "don't do that or there will be no consequences." Thus, response 3 is hardly better than 1 or 2.
> 
> Response 4 sounds really tough: "I plan to divorce you for breaking your NC promise." But, if you really do intend to divorce him, what is the point of telling him first? He will interpret it as you giving him an opportunity to make up an excuse or promise, yet again, not to do things a husband shouldn't do. So, basically, you will be back to square one in your R with your WH.
> 
> Response 5, as you can see, is really the only one that sends the right message to your WH: "I've had it with your cheating, sneaking and lying." It let's him know that you are not a paper tiger but rather a woman with standards that he must live up to if he wants to be your H. Based on what I've read about him and your relationship in your previous threads, my guess is that, when he receives the divorce papers, he will likely come crawling to you on his knees begging for one last chance -- which is exactly the position he should be in.
> 
> Frankly, I don't expect you to choose response 5. Most BSs don't because they are afraid that it will "backfire," i.e., that the WS will say not ask for another chance. What they fail to realize is that, if this happens, it means that the R was false and that the WS was not really committed to the marriage.
> 
> I wish you the best whatever you decide to do.
> 
> 
> P.S.: After writing but before posting this, I thought of another response: kick him out of the house for a while. That will send him a strong message and give him some real consequences.


This is an outstanding post. The bottom line is set here, that he needs to feel a few things. He needs to appreciate what he's about to lose. Not just the material things, but to actually think about a life without his wife, and perhaps even with this OW.. It might not look so inviting as it did while in the affair, all of the sudden it's less appealing because there's no sneaking involved, and the world would know about this OW, big light shines on the affair and it's no longer in the dark or kept secret. Meanwhile his wife is strong, and she's no longer available, so who becomes more appealing to the H? The wife.. The OW becomes needy and the wife becomes desirable again.

He needs to feel some shame, some regret and some pain.. 

Not for revenge, but to understand the difference between a committed relationship, and an affair. To understand what boundaries are, and how crossing them can lead to the demise of your marriage. To understand that you can't just abuse people that love you, to satisfy your selfish desires. To understand that NC, means NC.


----------



## Pluto2

:iagree:


russell28 said:


> This is an outstanding post. The bottom line is set here, that he needs to feel a few things. He needs to appreciate what he's about to lose. Not just the material things, but to actually think about a life without his wife, and perhaps even with this OW.. It might not look so inviting as it did while in the affair, all of the sudden it's less appealing because there's no sneaking involved, and the world would know about this OW, big light shines on the affair and it's no longer in the dark or kept secret. Meanwhile his wife is strong, and she's no longer available, so who becomes more appealing to the H? The wife.. The OW becomes needy and the wife becomes desirable again.
> 
> He needs to feel some shame, some regret and some pain..
> 
> Not for revenge, but to understand the difference between a committed relationship, and an affair. To understand what boundaries are, and how crossing them can lead to the demise of your marriage. To understand that you can't just abuse people that love you, to satisfy your selfish desires. To understand that NC, means NC.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## catsa

Asia- What about calling the OW, tell her you saw cell records with the 2 hour call. That you're in recovery, (he tells you often what a mistake it was, insert some choice bad stuff about her, true or not) and see if she contacts him. Monitor everything you can, VARs, home phone line recorders (available at RadioShack and gets both sides of convo). Push the envelope a little.


----------



## asia

catsa said:


> Asia- What about calling the OW, tell her you saw cell records with the 2 hour call. That you're in recovery, (he tells you often what a mistake it was, insert some choice bad stuff about her, true or not) and see if she contacts him. Monitor everything you can, VARs, home phone line recorders (available at RadioShack and gets both sides of convo). Push the envelope a little.


Thanks for the suggestion but the very last thing I'm going to do is contact the OW. I don't want to give her a reason to call my husband at all. She is not my direct problem. He is.


----------



## asia

You guys have said some very clear things I could do to nip this in the bud. I am so tired of trying to make this work and he goes and ruins all of our work.

I spoke with one of the very few people in my RL that knows of his behavior and they said he is really trying to be a good husband and probably was curious about what she wanted. That it didn't mean the end of our marriage. They understood why I am upset over some of the things he said and thinks he should go back to counseling like someone on here suggested.

Do the WS every think of the affair in a bad light? Wouldn't that be almost impossible to admit? I am trying to think of other reasons besides the obvious he said those things to her. I mean did he really have to tell her about his meds? I was so glad he was mean and cold towards her on the phone and shut down her attempts at talking about their relationship but then it dawned on me that he would have talked if he was indifferent. I thought he was being strong for our family (or at least trying to). But after reading all of your honest feedback, I know I have valid reason to worry. Someone said they may not be in contact right away, even years they may reconnect.

But the statement that said when things go wrong or we argue, he could go back in his mind and relive his affair with her to get away from our stress. How can I stop that?? What can I do to make him at least be indifferent towards her and not him thinking she was a decent person who will make so poor bum a great wife?


----------



## Pluto2

Honey, you can't stop what happens in his mind. Only he can do that.


----------



## Gabriel

I am a man who had a W that had a REALLY hard time letting her OM go. Like, really hard.

If I were in your shoes, I would let this simmer for a few days. Then, maybe a week from now, just flat out ask him if she tried to reach out to him at all. Ask flippantly, like, "Hey, has XX ever once tried to talk to you after all this smoke cleared? I was just thinking about this and wondered if she ever tried at any point."

This gets right to the issue and tests him, but doesn't come off as you discovering anything. See what he says.

My guess is if your tone is safe enough, he'll admit she called, but downplay the length and content of it. He'll likely say it was nothing, and that he was cold and distant and didn't want to alarm you by telling you about it.

Then, you go back to monitoring things like crazy. And if it ever happens again, you do #5 from that post a few posts back.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

asia said:


> I spoke with one of the very few people in my RL that knows of his behavior and they said he is really trying to be a good husband and probably was curious about what she wanted. That it didn't mean the end of our marriage. They understood why I am upset over some of the things he said and thinks he should go back to counseling like someone on here suggested.


I agree that he was probably curious as to what she wanted, but you know what? That phone call would have lasted less than a minute, and would have ended with a firm statement from him for her to never call again.


----------



## russell28

asia said:


> You guys have said some very clear things I could do to nip this in the bud. I am so tired of trying to make this work and he goes and ruins all of our work.
> 
> I spoke with one of the very few people in my RL that knows of his behavior and they said he is really trying to be a good husband and probably was curious about what she wanted. That it didn't mean the end of our marriage. They understood why I am upset over some of the things he said and thinks he should go back to counseling like someone on here suggested.
> 
> Do the WS every think of the affair in a bad light? Wouldn't that be almost impossible to admit? I am trying to think of other reasons besides the obvious he said those things to her. I mean did he really have to tell her about his meds? I was so glad he was mean and cold towards her on the phone and shut down her attempts at talking about their relationship but then it dawned on me that he would have talked if he was indifferent. I thought he was being strong for our family (or at least trying to). But after reading all of your honest feedback, I know I have valid reason to worry. Someone said they may not be in contact right away, even years they may reconnect.
> 
> But the statement that said when things go wrong or we argue, he could go back in his mind and relive his affair with her to get away from our stress. How can I stop that?? What can I do to make him at least be indifferent towards her and not him thinking she was a decent person who will make so poor bum a great wife?


So* you're* doing all the work, and he goes and ruins all your work....

Do you see any problems with that statement? Who's supposed to be doing the 'heavy lifting' again? Hint.. it's not you.

As long as you let him think about his affair with fondness, he will.. it's up to you to knock him out of his self fed delusions. The best way is as described above, give him a taste of life without you. All the IC in the world won't help if he ignores the real problem... He'll probably sit there all day and tell the therapist how his problem is that you are too controlling and not mention his affair, because it makes him sad to think about. Then he might give his OW a call after his session, since they both agreed that's totally cool... 

Confront. Tell him you're tired of being played a fool. Boot him out, let him know the divorce papers will follow... give him a few weeks at least to think about it. Find stuff to keep you busy while he's at his moms house... If he won't leave, tell him to sleep in the guest room until the divorce papers come. Any time he complains to you about your decisions, tell him he can call his girlfriend and talk to her about it, she said he can call her any time. Tell him to go to her, let her take care of him since he loves her so much. Let him think about what that life would be like.

The old "if you love something, set it free" thing.... That is the only way to shake him of his fond memories. Turn them into the thing that almost destroyed his life and crushed the soul of the people he loved.. not just a good time he had in the past. 

They spent time demonizing you.. feel free to demonize her, she was an accomplice in the crime. This is how you make him not want to hook up with her or anyone in the future. Make him choose you, and realize he needs to work hard and fight to keep you. You're not going to always be there for him if he screws up... he needs to know he has 1 chance to fix himself and his marriage.. not 3 or 5 chances.


----------



## Coffee Amore

asia - what do you think of the responses laid out in carmen ohio's excellent post? I noticed you didn't respond to that post and I wondered what you thought of it.


----------



## asia

Coffee Amore said:


> asia - what do you think of the responses laid out in carmen ohio's excellent post? I noticed you didn't respond to that post and I wondered what you thought of it.


The post said some extremely moving things that I am scared to consider honestly. It was an excellent post and totally the right way to look at it. I can't dispute one word. I just don't want to lose my husband and I am scared if I do those things, we won't be able to repair. 

My marriage is most certainly on the upswing, even with this phone call. He was cold to her, not warm and loving. So there's that. He told her he couldn't be her friend out of respect for me and our marriage. I need to believe he means it and the way he acts now, I think he does. 

Im hurt that he said all of those things that I can't unhear....


----------



## Thorburn

I ask my wife if she has had any contact whatsoever with the XOM, from time to time. I can't bear any lies, and so far she has told me the truth by what I have been able to track and it has been NC.

I would just ask him.


----------



## CantePe

If I were in your shoes I'd set up a nice dinner date at a fancy restaurant and play back their whole conversation to him and then slap divorce papers in front of him. This isn't reconcilliation, you are his plan b and have been from d day.


----------



## vi_bride04

asia said:


> My marriage is most certainly on the upswing, even with this phone call. He was cold to her, not warm and loving. So there's that. He told her he couldn't be her friend out of respect for me and our marriage. I need to believe he means it and the way he acts now, I think he does.
> 
> Im hurt that he said all of those things that I can't unhear....


I'm sorry but your marriage is not on an "upswing" since your WH was on the phone with the OW for TWO HOURS!

It would be on the upswing if he called her and said "please dont contact me again I'm working on my marriage and love my wife and family very much and cannot stand the thought of losing them"

The break of NC is one thing, a two hour phone call where the door has been left open for additional contact is totally another. ESPECIALLY if he has not told you about this phone call yet!

I was in a false R for 5 years. I don't want you to go down that same road. Please listen to the advice you are being given.


----------



## turnera

Play the recording for him. Then just sit back and see what he does. That will tell you a lot.


----------



## MrMathias

asia said:


> My marriage is most certainly on the upswing, even with this phone call. He was cold to her, not warm and loving. So there's that. He told her he couldn't be her friend out of respect for me and our marriage. I need to believe he means it and the way he acts now, I think he does.



It's entirely possible that he said the things he did to let her down easy, so she wasn't hurt. He may not have meant the things he said, saying them to placate her- but that means he still cares enough to do that- still bad. Is he a 'nice guy' in general? It could be he doesn't want her thinking he's a d!ck even though he may, in his mind, be done with her. 

As for comments that your R has always been false, I don't know about that. I think there's 'R', 'FailedR' and 'FalseR'.

I think you're on the boundary of the FalseR because neither of the APs seem to get 'NO CONTACT!!!'.


----------



## asia

MrMathias said:


> It's entirely possible that he said the things he did to let her down easy, so she wasn't hurt. He may not have meant the things he said, saying them to placate her- but that means he still cares enough to do that- still bad. Is he a 'nice guy' in general? It could be he doesn't want her thinking he's a d!ck even though he may, in his mind, be done with her.
> 
> As for comments that your R has always been false, I don't know about that. I think there's 'R', 'FailedR' and 'FalseR'.
> 
> I think you're on the boundary of the FalseR because neither of the APs seem to get 'NO CONTACT!!!'.


He is a nice guy and protective of others feelings. I think his focus should have been on how I would feel if he was talking to her. Any focus on that part of his life should be null and void. I hope that's all he was doing was making her feel better but for what? But him telling her about his meds and therapy? She had no reason to learn of that.


----------



## asia

CantePe said:


> If I were in your shoes I'd set up a nice dinner date at a fancy restaurant and play back their whole conversation to him and then slap divorce papers in front of him. This isn't reconcilliation, you are his plan b and have been from d day.


CantePe, what in your opinion makes me Plan B? Someone else posted that same thing and I meant to respond then. No defensiveness here, I am really trying to see how you could spot that so easily. For a while I knew he was here for our family but things got better and he engaged a lot more. Thanks and I will await your response. By the way, I like your idea. It makes me feel empowered.


----------



## remorseful strayer

asia said:


> My marriage is most certainly on the upswing, ...
> 
> Im hurt that he said all of those things that I can't unhear....


Asia:

What your husband did shows that he still lacks boundaries. A promise of no contact means just that. .... No phone calls. No I miss yous. No talking, writing, or viewing a facebook page. 

I am not sure if this is a false R, but it is not a good sign. 

Those who suggested you ask in an off hand way to see what his response will be is a good Idea, IMO. 

He likely will initially lie or probe to see what you know. Keep pushing. If he does not spill the information, tell him you know about the call. 

He need not know HOW you know. Let him guess. There are any number of ways you could have found out. Believe me, his imagination will kick into overdrive thinking of all the possibilities of how you found out. Don't tell, though. You need to keep recording his phone conversations. 

He may have wanted to let her down gently, but that is still a bad sign. His only concern now should be for your feelings. It may be that he doesn't understand that, or it may be he is truly NOT CONCERNED about your feelings. 

As a former cheater, who has a wife who was finally willing to attempt reconciliation, I would be scared to death to return a call to my ex OW. 

She has called, btw. I immediately showed the missed call to my wife. 

She called again and I let my wife answer the phone. She hung up. 

She was told numerous times I wanted no contact. I meant it. 

Your husband needs to mean it and never return her calls. 

With that said, He may very well have Mr. nice guy syndrome and have the self defeating need to let her down gently. 

The bottom line is until he tells her to GET LOST, in no uncertain terms, she will continue to call and attempt to rekindle. She was, BTW, attempting to rekindle. You do know that, right?


----------



## PamJ

<<I am always nervous but was feeling better each day until I heard this conversation. What am I supposed to do with this information? I don't want to tell him I have his phone bugged. Our recovery is going nicely. I almost understand why he talked to her since they obviously had not spoken since their D-Day but he should have never returned her call and told me instantly she tried to contact him. The very fact that she called him makes me sick, the worse is he called back. 

I have been spinning in my head for weeks now. Can someone help me out with this one? I feel good on one side and terrible on the other. Does this mean our recovery is doomed? I am trying to look at this positively since he told her he had to respect me. Help!>>

I would not worry about HOW you found out, I would just tell him you know he talked to her and what was said. If he was serious about R he would NOT have called back and he certainly wouldn't have talked to her for 2 hours telling her how great their A was!!!

I don't see how your R is "going nicely" if he would have contact with her and not tell you. That is not R that is false R and it would seem he could be waiting for the right time to rekindle what they had, or at least use it as a backup plan- he left that door open for her when he told her how wonderful she was and how he didn't regret ANY of it.

And you have waited weeks???

I'm sorry, as this is my biggest fear, false R after 3 strikes already on my WH, I would not be waiting to deal with this. I wish you luck, whether your R is doomed depends solely on him , and how he reacts right now.


----------



## turnera

Good point. The fact that he didn't tell you about the call would be enough to send him packing. That's not R. That's convenience.


----------



## PamJ

<<He is a nice guy and protective of others feelings. I think his focus should have been on how I would feel if he was talking to her. Any focus on that part of his life should be null and void. I hope that's all he was doing was making her feel better but for what? But him telling her about his meds and therapy? She had no reason to learn of that.>>

And this also makes me angry for your sake. He cares more about hurting her feelings than securing his R with YOU! This made me mad in my WHs EA when he tried to protect her, defend her, take all the blame for everything trying to tell me she was innocent, her pursued her, her H KNEW already so I didn't need to contact him etc. she was a nice person! BS! Get mad- and do something about this, or you will be spinning for many more weeks wondering...


----------



## asia

remorseful strayer said:


> Asia:
> He may have wanted to let her down gently, but that is still a bad sign. His only concern now should be for your feelings. It may be that he doesn't understand that, or it may be he is truly NOT CONCERNED about your feelings.
> 
> As a former cheater, who has a wife who was finally willing to attempt reconciliation, I would be scared to death to return a call to my ex OW.


Letting her down for what though? She didn't seem like she needed to be let down. And its been over for a long time, why would he still feel obligated to do anything for her other than to kick rocks? As a former WS, how long did it take you to get over your affair? Is it realistic to think he should have been over this a year ago?


----------



## PamJ

<<My marriage is most certainly on the upswing, even with this phone call. He was cold to her, not warm and loving. So there's that. He told her he couldn't be her friend out of respect for me and our marriage. I need to believe he means it and the way he acts now, I think he does. 

Im hurt that he said all of those things that I can't unhear....>>

No, it's NOT on the upswing- you are grasping at straws here- he did not TELL you which means he LIED to you by omission. He was 'cold' to her, yet spoke to her for two hours telling her he had no regrets. Can you hear yourself here? This in not an upswing- this is yet another betrayal. DO something!


----------



## remorseful strayer

asia said:


> Letting her down for what though? She didn't seem like she needed to be let down. And its been over for a long time, why would he still feel obligated to do anything for her other than to kick rocks? As a former WS, how long did it take you to get over your affair? Is it realistic to think he should have been over this a year ago?


I never thought of the OW as anything other than a side piece. She initially claimed to want only that. That changed, later. 

Letting her down easy may be to save face. Some people present themselves differently to an OW and that is part of the fantasy. He may want to appear to still be calling the shots in your relationship. 

The sad truth is he is not calling the shots and he shouldn't be, if he is. You are calling the shots, now or you should be.

Also there is a possibility that he is afraid she may go bunny boiler on him. I had that fear. I thought she might attempt to hurt my wife. 

Still, my wife had set boundaries and I knew I better stay within those lines, if I wanted a successful reconciliation.

Your husband doesn't seem to understand how serious his recent lapse of judgment was and is. That is one possibility and that is giving him the benefit of the doubt. 

The other possibility is, as others suggested, that he is hoping to rekindle at some point, when you calm down and begin to trust him again. 

He should not be TRULY missing her at this point. He should want to vomit when he sees her or even thinks of her. 

If he was not appeasing her by his words, he is still in the fog. 

The ONLY way to judge his position, is to call him on the phone call. Ask him, if he has had contact, as suggested.

Why are you waiting? Do it NOW!


----------



## asia

remorseful strayer said:


> I never thought of the OW as anything other than a side piece. She initially claimed to want only that. That changed, later.
> 
> Letting her down easy may be to save face. Some people present themselves differently to an OW and that is part of the fantasy. He may want to appear to still be calling the shots in your relationship.
> 
> The sad truth is he is not calling the shots and he shouldn't be, if he is. You are calling the shots, now or you should be.
> 
> Also there is a possibility that he is afraid she may go bunny boiler on him. I had that fear. I thought she might attempt to hurt my wife.
> 
> Still, my wife had set boundaries and I knew I better stay within those lines, if I wanted a successful reconciliation.
> 
> Your husband doesn't seem to understand how serious his recent lapse of judgment was and is. That is one possibility and that is giving him the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> The other possibility is, as others suggested, that he is hoping to rekindle at some point, when you calm down and begin to trust him again.
> 
> He should not be TRULY missing her at this point. He should want to vomit when he sees her or even thinks of her.
> 
> If he was not appeasing her by his words, he is still in the fog.
> 
> The ONLY way to judge his position, is to call him on the phone call. Ask him, if he has had contact, as suggested.
> 
> Why are you waiting? Do it NOW!


I have threatened to leave him so many times and I know I can't, at least not over this. I have never cashed the checks I've written before. If I confront him and he lies or even admits the truth, I know he isn't going to tell me all of the gory details I heard them talking about. I feel stuck.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

You are NOT STUCK! And YES, this IS a leave-able offense! If you are not going to do anything to improve your situation, or preserve your self respect, then just sit and wallow in the existence that you have chosen. That's pretty much the choice here, because if you do nothing, then nothing will change, and he will believe forever that betraying you over and over is ok.


----------



## asia

remorseful strayer said:


> I never thought of the OW as anything other than a side piece. She initially claimed to want only that. That changed, later.
> 
> Also there is a possibility that he is afraid she may go bunny boiler on him. I had that fear. I thought she might attempt to hurt my wife.


I think this whole thing would have been easier on me if he looked at her like that. My WS didn't look at his OW as a fling. 

So when your OW wanted more from the relationship, is that when you ended it? I'm sorry if this info is in a thread somewhere. I will go read up on your back story.


----------



## vi_bride04

3Xnocharm said:


> You are NOT STUCK! And YES, this IS a leave-able offense! If you are not going to do anything to improve your situation, or preserve your self respect, then just sit and wallow in the existence that you have chosen. That's pretty much the choice here, because if you do nothing, then nothing will change, and he will believe forever that betraying you over and over is ok.


:iagree:

Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is insanity.


----------



## Pluto2

asia said:


> CantePe, what in your opinion makes me Plan B? Someone else posted that same thing and I meant to respond then. No defensiveness here, I am really trying to see how you could spot that so easily. For a while I knew he was here for our family but things got better and he engaged a lot more. Thanks and I will await your response. By the way, I like your idea. It makes me feel empowered.


You are Plan B, I'm sorry.
If he were thoroughly committed to you and the marriage (as in his only Plan A):
1. He would not have called
2. He would not have spent 2 hours on the phone with OW
3. He would not have told OW he had no regrets, which by implication means he valued the A more than the marriage.
4. He would not lie by omission to you.
5. He would have told OW not to call again, ever.


----------



## vi_bride04

asia said:


> *I think this whole thing would have been easier on me if he looked at her like that. My WS didn't look at his OW as a fling.*
> 
> So when your OW wanted more from the relationship, is that when you ended it? I'm sorry if this info is in a thread somewhere. I will go read up on your back story.


And that is why this contact and 2 hour phone call is SO DANGEROUS

Its not just a piece. He has a serious emotional attachment to her, even after a year. 

Expect things to pick back up with them if this isn't nipped soon. 
By that I just mean more frequent contact, I'm not insinuating he will jump right back into the affair....at least not right away. 

How have his moods been since the phone call with her? Has he been more attentive? Sad? Depressed? Happy?


----------



## remorseful strayer

asia said:


> I have threatened to leave him so many times and I know I can't, at least not over this. I have never cashed the checks I've written before. If I confront him and he lies or even admits the truth, I know he isn't going to tell me all of the gory details I heard them talking about. I feel stuck.


Threats never work. You need to follow it with action. 

If you don't want to confront him because you fear he may say he does not love you. I totally understand that fear. 

I am sorry you feel stuck. It is normal.

So then you need an alternative plan. Go see an attorney and find out your rights and how to best implement a divorce. You don't need to follow through, but you need to know your rights. This may take away some of your fear.

You need to start planning your escape. 

It seems though that you are already starting to come to terms with the fact that he may only being sticking around for convenience. That is why you so fear confronting him. 

Your fear may be real and it may not. The only way to find out is to confront him. 

After you see the attorney to get to know your rights. Start taking care of yourself. Join a club, take a class, etc., do the 180. He needs to feel the possibility of losing you. 

Eventually you may get fed up with him and curry the courage to hand him the ultimatum of better boundaries or divorce. 

If he chooses divorce, you have lost nothing.


----------



## CantePe

*Re: Re: OW Broke NC and My Husband Called Back*



Pluto2 said:


> You are Plan B, I'm sorry.
> If he were thoroughly committed to you and the marriage (as in his only Plan A):
> 1. He would not have called
> 2. He would not have spent 2 hours on the phone with OW
> 3. He would not have told OW he had no regrets, which by implication means he valued the A more than the marriage.
> 4. He would not lie by omission to you.
> 5. He would have told OW not to call again, ever.


This exactly is what made it that easy to see on top of her number should have been blocked immediately as well without having to ask him to do so and all other media should have been blocked too like skype, facebook, email, etc


----------



## remorseful strayer

asia said:


> I think this whole thing would have been easier on me if he looked at her like that. My WS didn't look at his OW as a fling.
> 
> So when your OW wanted more from the relationship, is that when you ended it? I'm sorry if this info is in a thread somewhere. I will go read up on your back story.


No. It was not. She outed me because I told her I did not want more than an affair. 

A fling and an affair are two different things. A fling is very short term....a weekend or a week. An affair lasts a month or longer. 

I had an affair. I did not want it to end. It was fun and intoxicating, until my wife found out and booted me out.


----------



## Hortensia

Sounds like he has been and still is in love with her. That alone, leaving aside the rest, would make me kick his arse to the curb without regrets. You sleep with a man who longs for another woman. That's terrible, I feel for you.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

remorseful strayer said:


> No. It was not. She outed me because I told her I did not want more than an affair.
> 
> A fling and an affair are two different things. A fling is very short term....a weekend or a week. An affair lasts a month or longer.
> 
> I had an affair. I did not want it to end. It was fun and intoxicating, until my wife found out and booted me out.


Remorseful, thank you for sharing to help Asia.


----------



## SadandAngry

asia said:


> I have threatened to leave him so many times and I know I can't, at least not over this. I have never cashed the checks I've written before. If I confront him and he lies or even admits the truth, I know he isn't going to tell me all of the gory details I heard them talking about. I feel stuck.


And look at where you are now. You are hardly better off than when his affair was active. You give him chance, after chance, after chance. How many times does he need to demonstrate to you who he is? His actions are what you need to listen to, because his words are worthless. 

Go back to Carmen Ohio's post. Read it, internalize it. The only hope you have to get the marriage you want from this particular man is to make him choose. Not just choose, but he needs to be put in that stark, gut wrenching kind of moment, where everything is on the line. He's out, and out for good, or in, and I mean all in. 

He needs to face the very real, very immediate prospect of losing you. The sort of choice where only an all out effort on his part has a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding. He needs to know without a doubt that he blew it, big time, and no half hearted story or effort will give him more time to regret his 'lost soul mate'.

You deserve so much better than what you are settling for. What you are rationalizing and agonizing over. It is not worth it. It isn't and you ought to know it. You have nothing to be ashamed of. He does. You said cut my throat now in an early post. Bull****! Straight up ****ing bull****! You have a daughter. You have a responsibility to her, and wishing yourself harm due to a no good piece of crap sad excuse for a man is so far out of bounds it is insulting. To us, to you, to your daughter. Get a grip. So your marriage might fail. Welcome to the human race. It isn't the end of the world, don't treat it as such. It could be the best thing that ever happened for you, if it happens. Or, the shock of you finally showing yourself respect, demanding better for your family might spur him to become a real man. Might. 

Number 5 is the option that will set you free from the limbo you are in, will lead to the wonderful possibilities that exist for you, with or with out your husband. You control yourself, and you control the environment and the example you set for your daughter to a degree. Your so called husband has blatantly violated another huge boundary, serve up the only appropriate consequence, and allow him to rise to the occasion (if he can be who you hope he is), or let him show you with out a doubt who he chooses to be and move on to better things.


----------



## Omego

SadandAngry said:


> And look at where you are now. You are hardly better off than when his affair was active. You give him chance, after chance, after chance. How many times does he need to demonstrate to you who he is? His actions are what you need to listen to, because his words are worthless.
> 
> Go back to Carmen Ohio's post. Read it, internalize it. The only hope you have to get the marriage you want from this particular man is to make him choose. Not just choose, but he needs to be put in that stark, gut wrenching kind of moment, where everything is on the line. He's out, and out for good, or in, and I mean all in.
> 
> He needs to face the very real, very immediate prospect of losing you. The sort of choice where only an all out effort on his part has a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding. He needs to know without a doubt that he blew it, big time, and no half hearted story or effort will give him more time to regret his 'lost soul mate'.
> 
> You deserve so much better than what you are settling for. What you are rationalizing and agonizing over. It is not worth it. It isn't and you ought to know it. You have nothing to be ashamed of. He does. You said cut my throat now in an early post. Bull****! Straight up ****ing bull****! You have a daughter. You have a responsibility to her, and wishing yourself harm due to a no good piece of crap sad excuse for a man is so far out of bounds it is insulting. To us, to you, to your daughter. Get a grip. So your marriage might fail. Welcome to the human race. It isn't the end of the world, don't treat it as such. It could be the best thing that ever happened for you, if it happens. Or, the shock of you finally showing yourself respect, demanding better for your family might spur him to become a real man. Might.
> 
> Number 5 is the option that will set you free from the limbo you are in, will lead to the wonderful possibilities that exist for you, with or with out your husband. You control yourself, and you control the environment and the example you set for your daughter to a degree. Your so called husband has blatantly violated another huge boundary, serve up the only appropriate consequence, and allow him to rise to the occasion (if he can be who you hope he is), or let him show you with out a doubt who he chooses to be and move on to better things.


:iagree:

Great post. The thing is that he's very cozy and comfortable now. He has the security of your love and the attention from the OW which must make him feel even more important. 

I firmly believe that if she were SO important to him he would have left you. End of story. 

Perhaps you could say: "I feel badly that you have been in contact with OW, but if you believe that you need her so much, then perhaps you should not have decided to reconcile with me. I'd really like you to consider what I'm saying. There's no reason for me to be in second place. The choice is yours. If you have something important to say, go ahead, otherwise, you'll have to ask her not to contact you anymore."


----------



## asia

I'm sorry I am just now replying. I can now only post when during the day.

I am going to talk with him about this call this weekend when we have time to discuss without interruption. 

He is committed to the marriage and trying to make it work. I am positive about that part. His feelings are his feelings and as much as I want them to change, they are going to go away in its own time, much to my dismay. Just because he told her those things, doesn't mean he isn't committed to reconciliation. He just probably felt she needed to have that discussion but he in no uncertain terms let her know he was working to be a better person.

I know he would never tell me about this, most WS wouldn't out of self perservation etc. With my husband being a man who has always looked for other people to make him happy, he was just being polite when he said in response to her that she could call anytime. I do not think they will be in communication again. She probably feels like crap knowing he refused her attempts at questions and his coming back to his family. 

He obviously still has work to do in regards to his "old" feelings for her. There have been no more calls between them since. He doesn't regret their affair. He just needs more time to bond with our family and soon enough he will. 

I believe he loves me and he came back home to work things out. It has not been easy but they were getting better. He told his OW that he was happy too. He wouldn't tell her that if he wasn't happy at home with me.

Also, I went and listened to the conversation again. He was definitely not warm and fuzzy. He did go out of his way to let her know he holds her in high regard and puts all of the blame of the relationship on him. He almost sounded angry with her and when she offered to apologize he said no need. She responded, that it wasn't because she didn't do anything to him. So where was this underlying anger coming from. I could even tell it seemed like he was mad at her for something but maybe doesn't understand why. Really odd. Could it be he is mad at her for being his OW and trying to organize that in his head? 

We are going to talk about this and I am going to tell him we need to work harder at building our relationship and he will never want to speak to her again.


----------



## turnera

asia said:


> I have threatened to leave him so many times and I know I can't, at least not over this.


Why? You can leave your partner for whatever reason you want. What YOU are saying is you can't handle the guilt of leaving him just because YOU want happiness. YOUR worth isn't as high as HIS worth, therefore, it's your duty to stay with him unless he tries to kill you or something.

That's warped thinking.


----------



## turnera

MC is a must.


----------



## asia

And thanks to everyone who posted on this thread. I appreciate the words of action and encouragement. I know how this looks and due to his serial cheating, I'm not sure if I will ever trust him again. Out of all the years of our marriage, this has been the best in terms of devotion to the marriage (sans this call).

Granted, his denial of cheating on her all the while cheating on me is another kick in the pants but I guess that is part of the recovery process.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

asia said:


> We are going to talk about this and I am going to tell him we need to work harder at building our relationship and he will never want to speak to her again.


So what is your plan of action when he lies about how long the call was, and what was said?


----------



## asia

turnera said:


> Why? You can leave your partner for whatever reason you want. What YOU are saying is you can't handle the guilt of leaving him just because YOU want happiness. YOUR worth isn't as high as HIS worth, therefore, it's your duty to stay with him unless he tries to kill you or something.
> 
> That's warped thinking.


Turnera, I have put up with a lot over the years. His cheating before we got married, his cheating afterwards and now his falling in love with yet another woman. I married for life and don't want another husband. I know its crazy and doubt it myself but having a two parent home is the best thing for my daughter and for us. This is the only man I have ever loved and want nothing more than for him to love me the same way. I know he loves me and has a ton of issues that get in the way. I'm trying to simply maintain my sanity some days. Other days, its great. He will do anything in the world for me, except stop cheating. However, I am confident that this time, things can work. He has never been this committed before. 

Someone posted he may be here out of guilt. I asked him that alot and he swears that is not the case. We have been to MC on separate occasions in the past and once during an EA he was having that got squashed when I found out. Going to bring that back up this weekend during the talk.


----------



## vi_bride04

What would you tell your daughter in the event her husband was treating her the same yours is treating you?

Really think about this question with everything you have had to deal with.

B/c by staying in a marriage where you are constantly being disrespected in this way is only showing her it is ok and acceptable to be treated in such regard by your spouse.


----------



## asia

3Xnocharm said:


> So what is your plan of action when he lies about how long the call was, and what was said?


I expect him to lie about that. He will probably just say it wasn't long and he didn't want to be rude. If I say anything it will be forcing me to leave him or go off and we are right back to square one. So still thinking through how I am going to handle that part. I know he is going to bring up all of the progress we have made and ask for forgiveness and promise not to take another call.

It just kills me that I am not strong enough to be without him. He always seems to win.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

asia said:


> It just kills me that I am not strong enough to be without him. He always seems to win.


Only because you ALLOW it. You have so little self respect that you would rather stay married to a man who refuses to be faithful to you and your daughter than to be on your own. Think about what this is teaching your daughter...would you advise HER to stay with a cheating low life? Your husband KNOWS that your self respect is non existent and that no matter what he does, you arent going to leave, so please explain why he should be motivated to change?


----------



## Openminded

asia said:


> And thanks to everyone who posted on this thread. I appreciate the words of action and encouragement. I know how this looks and due to his serial cheating, I'm not sure if I will ever trust him again. Out of all the years of our marriage, this has been the best in terms of devotion to the marriage (sans this call).
> 
> Granted, his denial of cheating on her all the while cheating on me is another kick in the pants but I guess that is part of the recovery process.


AP's often tell the other they will not cheat on them. There is no doubt he had and could still have deep feelings for her. However, he's trying to reconcile and except for the monumental screw up in calling her back he seems to be doing very well. 

I am very cynical about R because my own R failed after 30 years. And I got out. But I feel hopeful for yours and that's something I virtually never say.


----------



## Pepper123

Draw the line in the sand... but only you can decide where that line is... If you keep moving it further and further away from you though, you know where that will leave you.


----------



## asia

Openminded said:


> AP's often tell the other they will not cheat on them. There is no doubt he had and could still have deep feelings for her. However, he's trying to reconcile and except for the monumental screw up in calling her back he seems to be doing very well.
> 
> I am very cynical about R because my own R failed after 30 years. And I got out. But I feel hopeful for yours and that's something I virtually never say.


Openminded, so how should I view the other things they said? How long am I going to have to deal with his having deep feelings for her? Its not like its obvious and he's moping around the house. He's on meds so not sure if the AD's are masking his real feelings for me or her actually. 

Anyone have experience with anti depressants and how they work for a WS? He initially got on them to deal with the fallout of the affair being exposed and their relationship. I always thought he went because of the after effects and what he did to himself. The call revealed he was having a hard time with the breakup (he ended it).


----------



## turnera

asia said:


> I know he is going to bring up all of the progress we have made and ask for forgiveness and promise not to take another call.


Great. That's when you ask for his phone and his computer and you take them to a technician who will set up instant notification to you for every call/contact he makes and receives. He OWES you that much.



asia said:


> It just kills me that I am not strong enough to be without him. He always seems to win.


Therapy will help you learn to love yourself more. Which is what you need to look at each of these situations not with abject fear of abandonment (or whatever the fear is), but rather a clinical approach to 'is this fixable?'


----------



## turnera

asia said:


> Openminded, so how should I view the other things they said? How long am I going to have to deal with his having deep feelings for her? Its not like its obvious and he's moping around the house. He's on meds so not sure if the AD's are masking his real feelings for me or her actually.
> 
> Anyone have experience with anti depressants and how they work for a WS? He initially got on them to deal with the fallout of the affair being exposed and their relationship. I always thought he went because of the after effects and what he did to himself. The call revealed he was having a hard time with the breakup (*he ended it*).


Obviously, the meds are for his feelings for her. Basically, he resents having to give her up, but he wants you, too. Unfortunately, the only way I've ever seen in 10 years of doing this to get him to finally realize what he would lose if you left him...is for you to leave him.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

asia said:


> Openminded, so how should I view the other things they said? How long am I going to have to deal with his having deep feelings for her? Its not like its obvious and he's moping around the house. He's on meds so not sure if the AD's are masking his real feelings for me or her actually.


You are ALLOWING yourself to be in second place to another woman! WHY are you allowing this to happen?


----------



## PamJ

<<I have been spinning in my head for weeks now. Can someone help me out with this one? I feel good on one side and terrible on the other. Does this mean our recovery is doomed? I am trying to look at this positively since he told her he had to respect me. Help!>>

<< I married for life and don't want another husband. I know its crazy and doubt it myself but having a two parent home is the best thing for my daughter and for us. This is the only man I have ever loved and want nothing more than for him to love me the same way.>>

The first quote is from your very first post. The second is from today. At first you asked for help and people have been trying to help, but, it doesn't seem like you really want help. What it sounds like is you want someone to tell you everything will be all right and he will love you as much as you love him.

Today you state you are not leaving the marriage and are not going anywhere. Well, in that case, here's the deal.: You cannot make him love you more than he does, you cannot make him be honest with you, by answering your questions truthfully or by telling you things that have happened that you don't know about (lying by omission), you cannot nice him into it, cajole him into it or threaten him into it because you hold no power and no cards.

He will continue to do what he wants to do as there are no consequences for his actions, ever. You can get all the MC and IC but it won't change if he won't. You don't trust him, you never will, you can rug-sweep and bury your head in the sand and maybe everything will be ok and maybe it won't , you will never know.

Why did you record his calls if you were not going to do anything with the info?

The only way he will change if you tell him this lying is a deal-breaker and mean it. If not than you can only hope for the best and there is nothing else anyone here can do for you.

I told my WH this was it, his last chance and I mean it and he knows it. I am not going anywhere if it happens again HE is, and he knows that too. I will not have a life with anyone who would do that to me again.


----------



## lisab0105

asia, you can't love him into loving you the way you should be loved. He isn't capable of being a good husband.


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## asia

3Xnocharm said:


> You are ALLOWING yourself to be in second place to another woman! WHY are you allowing this to happen?


If I hadn't bugged his cell phone I would have never known this. (SN: someone PM'd me about the software I used. If anyone else wants it, feel free to inbox me. Hopefully that is not breaking any TAM rules, if not I apologize and a mod can let me know.) He seems fine around the house. I know he wants our marriage to work and he told her such. I am not second place, I am his wife. He came back home. He does want to be a good guy from now on. We are a family but I should have left him the first time and I told him that too. He has a lot of family issues from his past that has affected his ability in our marriage. 

Don't get me wrong, I know how I/it looks. I feel like a fool sometimes for staying. I just keep holding out hope that THIS is the time to get it right.

We didn't do a lot of the things people do here. He has the same job, phone numbers, but he did get rid of toxic people that were not friends of the marriage.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

PamJ said:


> Why did you record his calls if you were not going to do anything with the info?


This was my thought as well! Why bother with the monitoring and babysitting when you are never planning to leave him? :scratchhead: Isnt ignorance bliss??


----------



## vi_bride04

Does he work with OW??


----------



## asia

3Xnocharm said:


> This was my thought as well! Why bother with the monitoring and babysitting when you are never planning to leave him? :scratchhead: Isnt ignorance bliss??


There are two sides constantly warring in my mind. I want a good marriage and honor God. The other side knows I have a husband that has cheated on me before and want to protect my sanity by checking up on him. I have called him all most of the time I have found things and we got through it. But I'm tired of the same old argument we have and wanting my marriage. There hadnt been anything I suspected and slowed down on checking the account that logs his info. But I hear what you are saying. It's just hard and sad that my life is all smiles on the inside and living in fear he will cheat again.


----------



## asia

vi_bride04 said:


> Does he work with OW??


No she lives out of state. He saw her during his travels, they used to travel together. But we have things in place that when he travels now, I know she is not there. And the phone call confirmed they have been in NC.


----------



## LongWalk

Positive: he did not run across town to meet her for coffee.

Negative: the call was too long.

They wanted closure, which could also have fanned life into the their affair.

Your husband still feels some emotional attachment to the OW. That will disappear with time and NC.

In a few weeks you might say something like, "I had a dream that she came up to you and wanted to talk and you looked at her a long time, I was so scared and then you walked away. It felt so real. I didn't know whether it was a dream or a nightmare."

Let him then interpret it.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

asia said:


> There are two sides constantly warring in my mind. I want a good marriage and honor God. The other side knows I have a husband that has cheated on me before and want to protect my sanity by checking up on him. I have called him all most of the time I have found things and we got through it. But I'm tired of the same old argument we have and wanting my marriage. There hadnt been anything I suspected and slowed down on checking the account that logs his info. But I hear what you are saying. It's just hard and sad that my life is all smiles on the inside and living in fear he will cheat again.


You only "got through" things because he LIES. So really, you are not "getting through" anything. You are only repeating an abusive pattern of denial. 

BTW, MY God wants me to have a happy fulfilled life...does yours wish torment on you?


----------



## vi_bride04

I'm pretty sure god looks down pretty hard on infidelity in marriage. 

If you leave your husband, you are still honoring god. You didn't bed another...he did. You have every right to leave the marriage in god's eyes.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You should attempt to read your OP with as little emotion as possible. You might understand why some posters are saying you are number 2 to your husband.


----------



## turnera

asia said:


> He has a lot of family issues from his past that has affected his ability in our marriage.


Then he should be in therapy. You should be demanding that to take him back.



asia said:


> I just keep holding out hope that THIS is the time to get it right.


It won't if you don't talk to him about it and set new boundaries since he broke your trust.


----------



## SadandAngry

You are counting on hope to make things different this time. Hope? What reason do you have to rely on hope? If you truly want things to be different, then YOU be different. You can act differently. You can demand respect. You can demonstrate that you will no longer be trifled with. Be different, show him some real, some harsh consequences. LET HIM READ A DIVORCE PETITION, one signed by you. Show him you are serious. Then, maybe, he will find some motivation to change.


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## PamJ

<<You are counting on hope to make things different this time. Hope? What reason do you have to rely on hope? If you truly want things to be different, then YOU be different. You can act differently. You can demand respect. You can demonstrate that you will no longer be trifled with. Be different, show him some real, some harsh consequences. LET HIM READ A DIVORCE PETITION, one signed by you. Show him you are serious. Then, maybe, he will find some motivation to change.>>

But first, she needs to TELL him she knows about the 2 hour call- she hasn't even DONE that yet- then see where it goes. What does she have to lose at this point? I would not be sitting on here talking about a 2 hour phone conversation I heard weeks ago. It's her life and she is afraid to even bring it up. I could not do it. I could not be silent for more than a day even. It would eat me up and I am so sick and tired of wasting time thinking about this stuff as it is. I could not take on any more at this point. It's such a waste of time, of life, so many better things to be doing. This is what upsets me, the time wasted hashing it over and over again. It is taking away from a better life.


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## Openminded

asia said:


> Openminded, so how should I view the other things they said? How long am I going to have to deal with his having deep feelings for her? Its not like its obvious and he's moping around the house. He's on meds so not sure if the AD's are masking his real feelings for me or her actually.
> 
> Anyone have experience with anti depressants and how they work for a WS? He initially got on them to deal with the fallout of the affair being exposed and their relationship. I always thought he went because of the after effects and what he did to himself. The call revealed he was having a hard time with the breakup (he ended it).


I think it will take him some time yet to completely get over her. I think he may have some regrets about not being with her but he strongly wants your marriage to work. These things are often not as cut and dry as we wish they were. 

Your husband is working at R. Mine rug swept. And 30 years later when mine's former AP came back into the picture he fell for her all over again. That's why I'm very cynical about R succeeding. And rarely encourage anyone. But I think yours will be successful because he's putting in the effort that I didn't see in my marriage. Be cautious. Always. But I feel much better about yours than I ever did about mine.


----------



## clipclop2

Asia,

Your fear is clouding your judgement. You are most definitely plan B. There is no doubt in my mind.

If your husband were committed to R this thread wouldn't exist. You can try to finesse it into a fairytale you can swallow but it will still make you sick in the end. 

He is in love with her. 

So, he is with you. Some people think that makes you plan A. It doesn't. There are things he doesn't want to lose - money, face, family, and the guilt weighs on him. You are only with him because of those other things.

You are plan B but with perks.

Do you really believe, in your heart of hearts, when you are completely honest with yourself, that he chose you over her? 

He is on anti-depressants so he can get through the day. He doesn't have her to take the edge off. He has to try to be a good husband and father, but it isn't coming to him naturally. 

Your neediness and fear are almost certainly weighing on him. It guilts him into trying rather than helps him see a woman who has a lot to offer.

You said he is a nice guy.

Who do you think he is playing "nice" for? 

He feels trapped. I guarantee.

See a therapist on your own. See a lawyer to learn your rights and the possibilities. The only way you can survive this is if you face facts and act based on those facts. 

He may very well leave you even with the other benefits that come with you. You may have no choice. And then you will claim to be blindsided and be totally unprepared to take care of yourself. How smart is that? Do you want everyone to see you as weak and fearful? People only have so much tolerance when people are so stuck playing victim and helpless, especially when the facts have been staring you in the face.

You think you are scared now? How scared do you think you will be when he chooses to leave rather than acquiesces to stay? If you haven't gotten your ducks in a row, you will be in worse shape than you are now.

Get all of the financial records. Tax forms. Credit card statements. If you don't have a good credit history, or any, fix that now. Save money. Do the 180 and improve your self-esteem. 

Stop thinking this marriage is the only thing that is going to save you! 

You are the only person who can save you. You are the only person who has all of the vested interest in your success. No matter how much someone loves you, in the end you rise or fall on your own decisions and actions.

That is a harsh reality. Take control of your life! You can do it! Whether he stays or goes, you kick him out or not, if you make yourself proud by accepting what you are facing and bravely making moves to protect yourself on one hand, and learn to LIVE on the other, you will love yourself so much.

Nothing feels better than working hard and having faith in yourself and this around you. People love helping when they know they are contributing to success. When they are propping someone else, not so much. They take responsibility for you and feel guilty if they want to stop.

Sound like anyone you know?

You can do it!!!

I expect your discussion with him to make you feel sorry for him and to buy any lame excuse he makes. Yeah, he is just a nice guy, protecting her feelings FOR TWO HOURS. 

I hope you prove me wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

:iagree:


clipclop2 said:


> Asia,
> 
> Your fear is clouding your judgement. You are most definitely plan B. There is no doubt in my mind.
> 
> If your husband were committed to R this thread wouldn't exist. You can try to finesse it into a fairytale you can swallow but it will still make you sick in the end.
> 
> He is in love with her.
> 
> So, he is with you. Some people think that makes you plan A. It doesn't. There are things he doesn't want to lose - money, face, family, and the guilt weighs on him. You are only with him because of those other things.
> 
> You are plan B but with perks.
> 
> Do you really believe, in your heart of hearts, when you are completely honest with yourself, that he chose you over her?
> 
> He is on anti-depressants so he can get through the day. He doesn't have her to take the edge off. He has to try to be a good husband and father, but it isn't coming to him naturally.
> 
> Your neediness and fear are almost certainly weighing on him. It guilts him into trying rather than helps him see a woman who has a lot to offer.
> 
> You said he is a nice guy.
> 
> Who do you think he is playing "nice" for?
> 
> He feels trapped. I guarantee.
> 
> See a therapist on your own. See a lawyer to learn your rights and the possibilities. The only way you can survive this is if you face facts and act based on those facts.
> 
> He may very well leave you even with the other benefits that come with you. You may have no choice. And then you will claim to be blindsided and be totally unprepared to take care of yourself. How smart is that? Do you want everyone to see you as weak and fearful? People only have so much tolerance when people are so stuck playing victim and helpless, especially when the facts have been staring you in the face.
> 
> You think you are scared now? How scared do you think you will be when he chooses to leave rather than acquiesces to stay? If you haven't gotten your ducks in a row, you will be in worse shape than you are now.
> 
> Get all of the financial records. Tax forms. Credit card statements. If you don't have a good credit history, or any, fix that now. Save money. Do the 180 and improve your self-esteem.
> 
> Stop thinking this marriage is the only thing that is going to save you!
> 
> You are the only person who can save you. You are the only person who has all of the vested interest in your success. No matter how much someone loves you, in the end you rise or fall on your own decisions and actions.
> 
> That is a harsh reality. Take control of your life! You can do it! Whether he stays or goes, you kick him out or not, if you make yourself proud by accepting what you are facing and bravely making moves to protect yourself on one hand, and learn to LIVE on the other, you will love yourself so much.
> 
> Nothing feels better than working hard and having faith in yourself and this around you. People love helping when they know they are contributing to success. When they are propping someone else, not so much. They take responsibility for you and feel guilty if they want to stop.
> 
> Sound like anyone you know?
> 
> You can do it!!!
> 
> I expect your discussion with him to make you feel sorry for him and to buy any lame excuse he makes. Yeah, he is just a nice guy, protecting her feelings FOR TWO HOURS.
> 
> I hope you prove me wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree:


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## vi_bride04

Does your WH blame you for the affair? I mean does he really own his decisions to step out, or does he throw things in your face like "you weren't meeting my needs"


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## lisab0105

Asia, of coarse you are plan b. B,C,D,E,F...you are the whole damn alphabet EXCEPT for A!!!! So am I, and everyone else that has been cheated on. Especially repeatedly cheated on. He cheats to escape his life with you. Mine cheated to escape his life with me and our unborn child. They cheat because they don't like their lives with us. Accept it. He does not regret her. You can't spin that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio

asia said:


> If I hadn't bugged his cell phone I would have never known this. (SN: someone PM'd me about the software I used. If anyone else wants it, feel free to inbox me. Hopefully that is not breaking any TAM rules, if not I apologize and a mod can let me know.) He seems fine around the house. I know he wants our marriage to work and he told her such. I am not second place, I am his wife. He came back home. He does want to be a good guy from now on. We are a family but I should have left him the first time and I told him that too. He has a lot of family issues from his past that has affected his ability in our marriage.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I know how I/it looks. I feel like a fool sometimes for staying. I just keep holding out hope that THIS is the time to get it right.
> 
> We didn't do a lot of the things people do here. He has the same job, phone numbers, but he did get rid of toxic people that were not friends of the marriage.


Dear asia,

You know what my advice was a few days ago and I still believe that, in most cases, taking steps to end a marriage when the unfaithful spouse isn't completely honest and doesn't do everything required of him/her to reconcile with the betrayed spouse is the best course of action.

But, listening to you pour your heart out in your posts makes me think that, maybe, in your case, given your deep love for your husband and your faith, you will be able to win him back by taking a different road than what I and others have recommended.

Only you are can judge what is in your husband's heart and how committed he is to saving his marriage. Only you know how much you are prepared to suffer in order to keep your family together. And only you will be affected by the outcome -- good or bad. So, the decision is yours alone.

While I would urge you to keep your eyes and options open in the event of future backsliding by your husband, I can find no fault in your determination to continue to love him, encourage him and guide him back to you and his family. If it works, you will have your reward. If it doesn't, you will have done everything you could. Either way, you can be at peace knowing that you did what you thought was right and that you did your best.

I truly hope that things work out the way you want them to. He is a very lucky man to have such a wonderful partner and I hope that, someday soon, he realizes this.

May God bless you and give you strength.


----------



## turnera

asia, have you read His Needs Her Needs?


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## remorseful strayer

asia said:


> Turnera, I have put up with a lot over the years. His cheating before we got married, his cheating afterwards and now his falling in love with yet another woman. I married for life and don't want another husband.


Asia: 

You obviously are not happy with his serial cheating. He has not suffered any consequence and knows you will stay in the marriage while he cheats. 

He will not stop cheating until you give him a reason too. If you fear he won't chose you, and when given an ultimatum, he does not, then you have lost nothing. 

You can get child support from this man. You will get half of any assets. Why not get them now before he spends any more assets on an OW?

You will be much happier being free to find someone who will choose you above others. 

He WILL be in contact with this OW. He already said that. You have it recorded. 

If you have already decided to stay with a cheater, and one who is likely to cheat again because you have shown him no negative consequence to his cheating, then why are you here asking for advise?

You have been given excellent advice, here. Why are you still making excuses for your husband's disrespectful behavior?


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## Pluto2

Openminded said:


> I think it will take him some time yet to completely get over her. I think he may have some regrets about not being with her but he strongly wants your marriage to work. These things are often not as cut and dry as we wish they were.
> 
> *Your husband is working at R*. Mine rug swept. And 30 years later when mine's former AP came back into the picture he fell for her all over again. That's why I'm very cynical about R succeeding. And rarely encourage anyone. *But I think yours will be successful because he's putting in the effort that I didn't see in my marriage. Be cautious. Always. But I feel much better about yours than I ever did about mine*.


Openminded, I am baffled as to how you can counsel the OP that her H is working at R, that he's putting for the effort.. when he has not revealed the contact with OW. Breaking the NC agreement is not a true R. Its more lies.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Here's what has been bugging me. Contact a year later? What was special about that date? That's what you need to find out if you really believe he is trying to reconcile.


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## Pepper123

Here is the painful truth... IMO. 

The only reason he went back to you is because of your daughter. If it was against you or her, he would have gone to her... He has proven that to you time and time again. The woman in a family is like a sun -- drawing the energy around it. It envelopes the others as a family unit. 

He loves someone else. God or not, that is crap, and not what a marriage is intended to be. He made a promise to God to forsake all others. He lied.


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## russell28

Openminded said:


> I think it will take him some time yet to completely get over her. I think he may have some regrets about not being with her but he strongly wants your marriage to work. These things are often not as cut and dry as we wish they were.
> 
> Your husband is working at R. Mine rug swept. And 30 years later when mine's former AP came back into the picture he fell for her all over again. That's why I'm very cynical about R succeeding. And rarely encourage anyone. But I think yours will be successful because he's putting in the effort that I didn't see in my marriage. Be cautious. Always. But I feel much better about yours than I ever did about mine.


You were in a false R for 30 years... wow, that's a tough one to hear. Sorry you had to go through that.. 

You are suggesting that she rug sweep this, and you should be the first to realize that it's not going to work. She needs him to pay consequences, so he can learn that the issue isn't him not being discreet enough, but the fact that he's hurting people that love him and care about him and disrespecting his wife and marriage. He needs to learn about boundaries and honesty, not how to become more covert.


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## SadandAngry

Pepper123 said:


> Here is the painful truth... IMO.
> 
> The only reason he went back to you is because of your daughter. If it was against you or her, he would have gone to her... He has proven that to you time and time again. The woman in a family is like a sun -- drawing the energy around it. It envelopes the others as a family unit.
> 
> He loves someone else. God or not, that is crap, and not what a marriage is intended to be. He made a promise to God to forsake all others. He lied.


I agree, and I will add, this is a reflection on him, his lack of character, not on you. Don't think you have anything to do with his choice to cheat and lie to you, because you don't.


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## clipclop2

If Asia truly wants to stop him cheating on her, she has to stop being there to be cheated on. 

It really is that simple. She can't "win" him back because she never had him from the start. He cheated before their wedding and continued cheating after.

He has never been truly married. He has never been hers. He either settled or is incapable of loving her as a man should love his wife. Both suck.

Our goal should be to help Asia WANT to stop the pain she suffers by staying married to him. If she doesn't want it to stop, the thread can end here. 

He can't change who he is. Asia can't wish or love him into loving her back. The situation is hopeless...

unless you are hoping for a lifetime of playing pretend. The mind hates self-deception. It will torment Asia. Trying to unring a bell is impossible. Trying to unknow the truth is as well.

Asia: What do you want that you can actually have in real life, not in fantasy land, that you can live with? 

Are you willing to do what it takes to secure a positive life for you and your child? Or does staying miserable feel safer? 

Cause I have a theory...

Fear of the unknown can paralyze. Since logically you know he will cheat again the fear you feel must originate elsewhere.

If you stay knowing he will never give you his heart, it suggests you don't really NEED his heart. Needing something motivates a different response than you are giving.

Could not knowing how to fulfill his function in your life be the real motivation for staying? Yeah, you love him, but it isn't satisfying so it isn't the real incentive that makes you want to stay. 

Asia - what does he *do* and *provide* in your life, apart from male companionship? Assume he will continue to be a good father. Just look at functions/features he fulfills that would still need doing.

Maybe discussing these things and figuring out solutions will lessen the fear that is obscuring your view. The emotional armor that is "wishing" holds you prisoner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded

Pluto2 said:


> Openminded, I am baffled as to how you can counsel the OP that her H is working at R, that he's putting for the effort.. when he has not revealed the contact with OW. Breaking the NC agreement is not a true R. Its more lies.


His contact with the OW was a gigantic mistake. Obviously. But the OP feels he has been working hard at R and they are in a better place. None of us will ever know what goes on in the mind of a cheater when they decide to R. I think he still has feelings for the OW. And he's obviously not been forthcoming about the call. Because of my own situation I normally don't support attempts at R. But I do here. And I could be wrong. But that's how I see it at the moment.


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## Openminded

russell28 said:


> You were in a false R for 30 years... wow, that's a tough one to hear. Sorry you had to go through that..
> 
> You are suggesting that she rug sweep this, and you should be the first to realize that it's not going to work. She needs him to pay consequences, so he can learn that the issue isn't him not being discreet enough, but the fact that he's hurting people that love him and care about him and disrespecting his wife and marriage. He needs to learn about boundaries and honesty, not how to become more covert.


Thanks. I generally don't support R because I'm cynical due to my situation. 

I think he still cares about the OW. But they had not been in contact until the call and it was not a warm and fuzzy conversation on his part. And it was far too long. Asking about the call in some way that doesn't reveal how she knows about it would be beneficial, certainly. 

He's the only one who really knows if he wants to R. She will aways wonder if he's sincere or not. Thirty years of false R taught me that. If I had it to do over I would have never agreed to R thirty years ago. For some it may work. I'm not sure what the success rate is. My guess is it's low. Again, that's the cynic in me speaking.


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## SadandAngry

Was your husband cheating on you from prior to your marriage openminded? Did he cheat repeatedly on you, despite being caught? Because that's what Asia is married to, what she is clinging onto for all she is worth. Actually, I think she is worth far more than that, she just needs to realize it.


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## Openminded

SadandAngry said:


> Was your husband cheating on you from prior to your marriage openminded? Did he cheat repeatedly on you, despite being caught? Because that's what Asia is married to, what she is clinging onto for all she is worth. Actually, I think she is worth far more than that, she just needs to realize it.


I missed that part. That makes a difference. I thought this was his first time. I don't believe in staying with a serial cheater. That's why I went against the advice of everyone who knew me and got out.


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## clipclop2

Asia will only "see" the posts that support holding on to her hope instead of accepting what is evident.

Encouraging her to stop waiting and hoping for a better life is for her own good. If this guy has anything real to offer he will do it when she is strong. While she is weak he can continue to pretend he is what he is not. When she gets strong he will have to make a decision because if he doesn't do it pronto, she will do it for him.

The people who say you have to be willing to "lose" the marriage to save it are right.

Marriage takes two strong people. This marriage has none.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadandAngry

The whole story is not contained in this thread. Asia has come looking for advice before.


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## russell28

I wasn't aware of the fact that he cheated prior to marriage, or that he cheated after discovery... wow, yea, this guy has learned nothing other than to be more careful what he says on the phone in case his wife has a VAR nearby..


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## highwood

I also find it sad that she uses religion as a way to stay in the marriage....I guess in her religion God holds her to a higher standard than her POS husband....interesting! I wonder if he is thinking about God when he is running around behind her back.


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## asia

Hey everyone, I was swamped yesterday at work and could only read a few comments but no real time to respond.

I am asking him this weekend about the call. I don't want to be lied to again but fear that will be the case. I have been doing a lot of thinking (but who isn't always thinking when dealing with a cheater) and know what all of you are saying is true. At least the part about me doing something. I could kick him out and know for certain he won't be with her and that could work. For those who haven't read my previous threads I will give a short recap. 

He left for a few months and moved in with family. I didn't know he was doing this to prepare for his life with OW. We just couldn't get along or work things out so I thought. He had previously asked for divorce 8 months before our separation (for OW again). Our daughter had a hard time of it as did I. He told me about the affair thinking his OW was going to out him but she never did. I did some research to find out who she was and confronted him because he didn't tell me who she was at first. Their relationship fell apart and after a few months he moved back home. He entered into IC, got on meds, and focused on our family.That's the short version.....lol.

It bothers me that he has always held her in such high regard. He was proud she never contacted him after it was over. He knew cheating was a dealbreaker for her (he told her on their call to he didn't). This hasn't been the only one but the biggest one. He didn't have feelings for the other two PA's and obviously for the 1 EA. The first PA was right before the wedding, a few months. The second was a year or two after the marriage, the EA was two years after that and this latest one.

He has some legitimate gripes about me. But I can't be close to someone who does this to me. I used to hate to even kiss him and it all just snowballed. I am working on my part to improve the marriage and he has done a 180 after all of this to do his. For the first time since we've been married, I feel this is our shot.

Ok I am going to go back and answer the questions people asked yesterday. Happy Friday!!


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## turnera

How do you change from a person who believes it's ok to be a serial cheater to someone who focuses only on your wife?

By losing her.


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## phillybeffandswiss

asia said:


> Hey everyone, I was swamped yesterday at work and could only read a few comments but no real time to respond.
> 
> I am asking him this weekend about the call. I don't want to be lied to again but fear that will be the case. I have been doing a lot of thinking (but who isn't always thinking when dealing with a cheater) and know what all of you are saying is true. At least the part about me doing something. I could kick him out and know for certain he won't be with her and that could work. For those who haven't read my previous threads I will give a short recap.
> 
> He left for a few months and moved in with family. I didn't know he was doing this to prepare for his life with OW. We just couldn't get along or work things out so I thought. He had previously asked for divorce 8 months before our separation (for OW again). Our daughter had a hard time of it as did I. He told me about the affair thinking his OW was going to out him but she never did. I did some research to find out who she was and confronted him because he didn't tell me who she was at first. Their relationship fell apart and after a few months he moved back home. He entered into IC, got on meds, and focused on our family.That's the short version.....lol.
> 
> It bothers me that he has always held her in such high regard. He was proud she never contacted him after it was over. He knew cheating was a dealbreaker for her (he told her on their call to he didn't). This hasn't been the only one but the biggest one. He didn't have feelings for the other two PA's and obviously for the 1 EA. The first PA was right before the wedding, a few months. The second was a year or two after the marriage, the EA was two years after that and this latest one.
> 
> He has some legitimate gripes about me. But I can't be close to someone who does this to me. I used to hate to even kiss him and it all just snowballed. I am working on my part to improve the marriage and he has done a 180 after all of this to do his. For the first time since we've been married, I feel this is our shot.
> 
> Ok I am going to go back and answer the questions people asked yesterday. Happy Friday!!


WOW. This completely changes my thinking. He actually moved out, only told you because she threatened him and came back when he lost his "new woman." Then, after going to counseling, getting on meds, and recomitting to you he has a secret conversation with his old "new love."

Sorry, he needs a sharp metaphorical slap.



> he doesn't regret her or the time they had. He said that about a million times and apologized two million.





> He told her they couldn't be friends (she didn't ask, he offered that up) because* he had to *respect me.





> My husband reminded her of when he asked me for divorce on my birthday to be with her to make sure SHE knew how important she was to him at the time.





> He promised her that he didn't cheat on HER.





> He stopped therapy a long time ago but told her he goes every two or three months if he needs to.





> She asked how long it took him to get over her and at first he said months, then said "I don't know, it really took a long time"


That's him subtly blaming you. Well actually, it isn't that subtle. That's your man reminding her how important SHE was and they were both fishing. She now knows that he still carries a torch. When I read your OP this quote stuck out to me:


> He told her they couldn't be friends (she didn't ask, he offered that up) because* he had to *respect me.


Now only you know you husband, but when I talk about respect it goes something like this:


> We couldn't be friends because *I respect my wife.*


That's me, his sentence just struck me wrong in that paragraph. Also, the robotic tone to me was him suppressing his feelings. I do it when I am extremely mad so, I can control my possible terrible outburst.


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## 3Xnocharm

This man is not worth it. NO MAN is worth this!


----------



## Catherine602

Asia There is not much more to say. You want to remain married to your husband in the belief that he will be faithful and focus on your marriage. Given what you have posted it may take you years to realize that he is the worse type of cheater - a serial cheater who travels. 

This is what is likely to happen. He will likely cheat again when the opputunity presents itself and he thinks you will not find out. The next times he cheats, he will hide it better. You may be able to live in denial with a husband who is withdrawn and gives most of his time, energy and resources to OW until he finally leaves. The sad thing is that by the time he leaves, you will be bitter and defeated.

I can understand that with your ability to ignore the truth and to avoid D you will hang on to the end. At this point D is worse than staying with a serial cheater that will eventually leave. 

My advice is to get a career and avoid devoting all your time to your family so that when he does leave you have a support system and the means to support your self.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2

I didn't see in there anything about what you are going to do except talk to him.

It isn't much of a plan.

I think you are still avoiding doing anything about your situation. And I am afraid that no matter how he deals with the confrontation you will only hear the lies that you like.

You will grab onto them for dear life and rationalize and minimize and remain unhappily Plan B. 

You will condemn yourself to a lifetime of doubt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coffee Amore

asia, having read several of your threads, I get the impression you have a deep faith. Your religious values are clearly important to you. But that's really not a true picture of you, is it? You are far more liberal than your Christian values suggest because you accept a one-sided open marriage. Think about it. He has sex with other women on the side then comes back to you. That to me is a one-sided open marriage. 

Your husband hasn't been monogamous before or during marriage. Yet you accept this behavior from him and in doing so, you accept that you're basically in an open marriage on his side. That's much more liberal than the most liberal people I know!


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## lifeistooshort

He holds the other woman is high regard because she's not a doormat. You are. Sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Omego

3Xnocharm said:


> This man is not worth it. NO MAN is worth this!


This. Now that I've read the whole story my opinion has changed with respect to what I posted before,

Why be second place for the rest of your life? Not even the OW is first place. HE is first place. It's really all about him isn't it?

This makes me quite angry. People who hurt others because they are too pathologically selfish to have any morals whatsoever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio

How are you doing, asia?


----------



## asia

Hey all,

Wasn't sure to start a new thread or resume this one. My WS knows I contribute to an online community but doesn't know which one so I've been sort of sketchy with my posting but wanted to give an update on this latest saga.

There had been NO contact between him and the OW until a fews days ago. SHE texted him and here is the texts I saw and verified these were the only ones and the last ones.

Her: I'm coming to town. Are you around?
Him: I'm home for a few days and going back out of town for work.
Her: What kind of work?
Him: I do have some work but my daughter and family will be there, then my daughter has a cross country event and I'm heading back out.

Her: I got it. Well if you have time, I want to talk with you if its possible and some other random things.

Him: "Responded to random things" Then this - it probably isn't a good idea to chat. If there are unanswered questions, let's leave them in the past and move one. If you have moved on focus on that and if you have not focus on family and friends. I am glad you can talk with me and we can be cordial but it isn't healthy to talk......at least not for me. Thanks for understanding.

Her: I understand and here's why I reached out. I was visiting the same place we went to a few years ago and it made me start thinking about stuff I never fully understood and decided to ask you. Even though I have moved on well, I still remember so figured I would ask since some time has passed as its been almost two years. For me, it's only simple dialog but I incorrectly assumed it would be the same for you after this time has passed. I get it. You aren't willing to have that conversation. 
Him: Thanks for understanding
Her: I really do get it.
Him: Understood

No more texts.

I am happy that he didn't go meet her and talk with her. But why do I feel so drained and insecure?


----------



## Hope1964

Asia, do you even understand what NO CONTACT means??

How did you find out about these texts?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

asia said:


> I am happy that he didn't go meet her and talk with her. But why do I feel so drained and insecure?


Because this was WAY TOO MUCH CONVERSATION!! He should have ignored her initial message!


----------



## asia

I saw them on his phone through software. 

Yes, I get no contact. But he isn't contacting her. She texted him and he didn't go see her.


----------



## Hope1964

asia said:


> I saw them on his phone through software.
> 
> Yes, I get no contact. But he isn't contacting her. She texted him and he didn't go see her.


No you don't!!!! Did he tell you immediately that she contacted him??


----------



## Hope1964

Did he text her back that he will not be talking to her and then immediately block her number????

NO. He did none of the things he should have. You are SO blind it's pathetic I am sorry to say.


----------



## asia

Hope1964 said:


> Did he text her back that he will not be talking to her and then immediately block her number????
> 
> NO. He did none of the things he should have. You are SO blind it's pathetic I am sorry to say.


Granted, he didn't tell me. But what makes me blind? He didn't want to talk to her about whatever she wanted to discuss. To me, that's a good thing.

Are you saying its a matter of time or because he exchanged the last text that he wanted more? Because he could have meet up with her. He said it wouldn't be healthy for him, does it appear that he means his marriage, if I found out?


----------



## rrrbbbttt

As long as he responds, even not in a positive nature that keeps the relationship "OPEN".

She knows she can contact him and he will respond.



No Contact means No Contact.


----------



## pidge70

Why hasn't he changed his number or at the very least, blocked her from being able to contact him?


----------



## Hope1964

asia said:


> Granted, he didn't tell me. But what makes me blind? He didn't want to talk to her about whatever she wanted to discuss. To me, that's a good thing.
> 
> Are you saying its a matter of time or because he exchanged the last text that he wanted more? Because he could have meet up with her. He said it wouldn't be healthy for him, does it appear that he means his marriage, if I found out?


I am saying that neither you nor he seems to understand that no contact means 

*NO CONTACT*

of any kind.

He should have told you immediately when she contacted him. Her number should have already been blocked from his phone. There is NO way you should have had to snoop to see that she texted. There is NO WAY he should have replied. NO WAY. 

This is NOT no contact. This is sneaking around behind your back. Again.

You are blind because you refuse to see what is right in front of your face: HE HAS NO INTENTION OF STOPPING. EVER.


----------



## asia

Hope1964 said:


> This is NOT no contact. This is sneaking around behind your back. Again.
> 
> You are blind because you refuse to see what is right in front of your face: HE HAS NO INTENTION OF STOPPING. EVER.


If he had no intention of stopping, he would have taken her up on her offer. He said it was not healthy for him to do that. So that must mean something. His boundaries are not where they need to be yet, that is obvious but doesn't this prove he no longer has feeling for OW now? It's this a good thing?


----------



## Hope1964

Either he knows you're monitoring him and is just biding his time, or he has another way of contacting her.

You know what? I give up. You obviously just want to hear what you want to hear. You've been told repeatedly what exactly no contact means, and this isn't it. If you want to continue to delude yourself that your husband is worth your time, go ahead.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

NO, IT DOES NOT PROVE HE DOES NOT HAVE FEELINGS FOR THE OTHER WOMAN. IF HE DIDN'T HAVE FEELINGS HE WOULD ENSURE THAT HE HAD "NO CONTACT".

Sorry to print in caps but you are in your "Nice Girl" You are thinking that he would not do anything to hurt me because I have "R" and he knows that anything would hurt me.

If he was fully committed at this time he would not let the Fox stick it's nose in the Chicken Coop.

Sorry I would say with the actions of the previous affair he is susceptible to cheating. He had feelings for this woman, once, he cheated on you with her. 

If he was fully committed he would completely shut her off.

Every times he responds to her it reopens the Affair, is he that dense that he does not realize this?


----------



## turnera

When he said not healthy, I took it that he just meant he'd get in trouble with you, which is not great. What's really missing, though, is that he isn't telling you the truth. Have you asked him if she's contacted him?


----------



## badmemory

asia said:


> doesn't this prove he no longer has feeling for OW now?


What it proves is that just by engaging her in this conversation, he is disrespecting you by crossing that boundary. He believes that you won't do anything about it and he's right. Or even worse, he doesn't care.

If he truly didn't have any feelings for her, if he truly respected your feelings; he would not have responded to her at all and he would have let you know what happened.


----------



## asia

badmemory said:


> What it proves is that just by engaging her in this conversation, he is disrespecting you by crossing that boundary. He believes that you won't do anything about it and he's right. Or even worse, he doesn't care.
> 
> If he truly didn't have any feelings for her, if he truly respected your feelings; he would not have responded to her at all and he would have let you know what happened.


So his reply keeps hope alive? Even after he had the chance to see her? My confidant said to be glad he didn't hang out with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

No, it's great that he didn't bite, it really is. It's just that you guys aren't having enough discussion about what's expected moving forward, ie, he should know you want him to tell you if she contacts him. Because it can lead to a slippery slope where he will allow contact in the future. He needs to be clear on what's allowed. Is there some way you can bring it up without revealing that you're monitoring?


----------



## intuitionoramiwrong

Why isn't her number blocked??


----------



## badmemory

asia said:


> So his reply keeps hope alive? Even after he had the chance to see her? My confidant said to be glad he didn't hang out with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Asia,

For just a moment, picture yourself as a cheating wife, who's trying to reconcile. You are remorseful and want desperately to save your marriage. You've agreed to no contact.

The OM tries to contact you. What would you do?


----------



## asia

turnera said:


> No, it's great that he didn't bite, it really is. It's just that you guys aren't having enough discussion about what's expected moving forward, ie, he should know you want him to tell you if she contacts him. Because it can lead to a slippery slope where he will allow contact in the future. He needs to be clear on what's allowed. Is there some way you can bring it up without revealing that you're monitoring?


My suspicious nature has me wondering if he didn't because he can't be with her so it's easier not to see her. I have yet to fully feel like I'm number one in his life. He posted this suspicious post online about letting go of relationships that he broke.....we are still together so I've been on high alert since. And now that he blew her off, I feel a little better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## asia

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> Why isn't her number blocked??


She has a new one. And he never blocked the new one. They had sent two text messages last month about a mutual friend of theirs but nothing personal. The person was ill.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## intuitionoramiwrong

asia said:


> She has a new one. And he never blocked the new one. *They had sent two text messages last month about a mutual friend of theirs but nothing personal. The person was ill.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is also not okay. NC is NC...

The thing that worries me about your story (read this whole thread) is that not once, in the phone conversation or the texts did he ever say "Please do not contact me again"....that needs to happen..it should have happened 2 years ago.


----------



## intuitionoramiwrong

As someone who is gathering evidence to try and catch my wife cheating (I suspect, and am evidence gathering currently), it is completely baffling to me that you can know about the phone call and the texts and just sit on the information. 

Did you ever get an answer from him on the phone call from September?


----------



## asia

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> As someone who is gathering evidence to try and catch my wife cheating (I suspect, and am evidence gathering currently), it is completely baffling to me that you can know about the phone call and the texts and just sit on the information.
> 
> Did you ever get an answer from him on the phone call from September?


Not sure of your story but I have cried wolf and never left so I keep this to myself to prevent looking crazy.

This is the marriage I have. I have a husband that cheats. I'm still here and so is he. I left a few minor details out but he made it very clear he doesn't think talking to her about their affair is something he wants to do. Keeping things pleasant and surface is what he aimed for. But he has never contacted her first. She makes the contact. I can't tell if she's moved on and just bring friendly or wants my husband back but he's staying with his family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3Xnocharm

asia said:


> Not sure of your story but I have cried wolf and never left so I keep this to myself to prevent looking crazy.
> 
> This is the marriage I have. I have a husband that cheats. I'm still here and so is he. I left a few minor details out but he made it very clear he doesn't think talking to her about their affair is something he wants to do.* Keeping things pleasant and surface is what he aimed for. *But he has never contacted her first. She makes the contact. I can't tell if she's moved on and just bring friendly or wants my husband back but he's staying with his family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, rugsweeping is what he does.

If you are so insistent that you are never divorcing, then why bother monitoring what he is doing? Why put yourself through the stress and anguish? He KNOWS you arent going to leave, so eventually he will go back to cheating on you. This woman isnt going away, because he isnt TELLING her to go away. If he intended to never be involved with her again, he would be very loud and clear telling her to get lost.


----------



## PamJ

You are not listening. <<She has a new one. And he never blocked the new one. They had sent two text messages last month about a mutual friend of theirs but nothing personal. The person was ill.>> 

It does not matter WHY they are in contact, they are not supposed to BE in contact, at all, not once. If, for some reason she is able to contact him (he should have a new # that she does not have) he should TELL you immediately that it happened and show you the text/s himself. I don't
even know what to tell you because you are willing to let it slide and let it slide again and again. 

If you don't want to deal with it, then don't, stop monitoring him, it doesn't matter.

If you want it to stop you show him what you have, tell him to stop or it's over, and be true to your word. That's it. Idle threats are useless.


----------



## damagedgoods1

asia said:


> Keeping things pleasant and surface is what he aimed for. But he has never contacted her first. She makes the contact. I can't tell if she's moved on and just bring friendly or wants my husband back but he's staying with his family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


IMO, she is his Plan B. He wants to remain cordial just in case things don't work out with you.

She has not moved on, she wants him back, she is fishing. He's not exactly saying no, he's giving her a small shred of hope just in case.

Continue to monitor.

I agree with all of the other respondents on this thread about NC means NC, but that is easier said than done.

Continue to monitor.


----------



## Hope1964

damagedgoods1 said:


> NC means NC, but that is easier said than done.


I call bull. It is EXTREMELY simple. It is totally black and white. If anyone is finding it complicated, they are NOT doing it right.


----------



## asia

damagedgoods1 said:


> IMO, she is his Plan B. He wants to remain cordial just in case things don't work out with you.
> 
> She has not moved on, she wants him back, she is fishing. He's not exactly saying no, he's giving her a small shred of hope just in case.
> 
> Continue to monitor.
> 
> I agree with all of the other respondents on this thread about NC means NC, but that is easier said than done.
> 
> Continue to monitor.


He did tell her to move on. A bunch of times, he also won't even let her ask what she wants to know so I don't think she is a Plan anything. He didn't go meet up with her and he could have. He's trying. 

My main issues is why does he even still have to "try". Never return her contact, tell me, and the biggest thing, what does "unhealthy" mean to him? Its been YEARS so there shouldn't be anything unhealthy for him to worry about other than me leaving and he knows I am committed to the marriage. He has done this type of thing before so it would be dumb of me to think he's really worried about my commitment. But I am super duper glad he told her that, makes me think he really IS scared I am done. Double edged thinking on my part.


----------



## COguy

The reason no contact is no contact is so that YOU can start building your relationship again and have peace.

How can you do that when they are still talking? By him doing this you are establishing bad things:

1. That he can continue to hide things from you (these conversations)
2. That at some point in a moment of weakness she will immediately be there for him to talk to. It's called fishing.
3. That your boundaries get blurred and you won't stick to them.

If you want to save your relationship, you have to be ready to end it. You are a slave at this point. And worse than that, you are watching the betrayal happen all over again, slowly, bit by bit.

Figure out what kind of relationship you want, and stop making excuses for your partner. Get counseling because you have clear codependency issues.


----------



## damagedgoods1

Hope1964 said:


> I call bull. It is EXTREMELY simple. It is totally black and white. If anyone is finding it complicated, they are NOT doing it right.


I stand corrected. You are correct. The H is not doing it right.


----------



## damagedgoods1

asia said:


> He did tell her to move on. A bunch of times, he also won't even let her ask what she wants to know so I don't think she is a Plan anything. He didn't go meet up with her and he could have. He's trying.
> 
> My main issues is why does he even still have to "try". Never return her contact, tell me, and the biggest thing, what does "unhealthy" mean to him? Its been YEARS so there shouldn't be anything unhealthy for him to worry about other than me leaving and he knows I am committed to the marriage. He has done this type of thing before so it would be dumb of me to think he's really worried about my commitment. But I am super duper glad he told her that, makes me think he really IS scared I am done. Double edged thinking on my part.


By him continuing to respond to her, he is giving her a tiny shred of hope. Only when he stops responding, will she either go crazy or actually move on with her life.

By him continuing to respond to her, it says to me that he still has caring feelings for her.

IF I were the OW, I would interpret these messages from him as, "I can't talk now, but try me again later..." He's leaving the door open in case he changes his mind.


----------



## asia

damagedgoods1 said:


> By him continuing to respond to her, he is giving her a tiny shred of hope. Only when he stops responding, will she either go crazy or actually move on with her life.
> 
> By him continuing to respond to her, it says to me that he still has caring feelings for her.
> 
> IF I were the OW, I would interpret these messages from him as, "I can't talk now, but try me again later..." He's leaving the door open in case he changes his mind.


Hi Damaged, I am not sure of your story. Are you a WS or a BS?

After years of being apart from her and committed to our family, he could have been just trying to be nice. If he wanted her back, he would have tried and he didn't. I wouldn't call his response "caring feelings". How could he still have those after all this time and being here for me? 

Do you have a thread here I can follow?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

asia said:


> Hi Damaged, I am not sure of your story. Are you a WS or a BS?
> 
> *After years of being apart from her and committed to our family, he could have been just trying to be nice. If he wanted her back, he would have tried and he didn't. I wouldn't call his response "caring feelings". How could he still have those after all this time and being here for me?
> *
> Do you have a thread here I can follow?


OMG you are SO in denial.


----------



## COguy

asia said:


> Hi Damaged, I am not sure of your story. Are you a WS or a BS?
> 
> After years of being apart from her and committed to our family, he could have been just trying to be nice. If he wanted her back, he would have tried and he didn't. I wouldn't call his response "caring feelings". How could he still have those after all this time and being here for me?
> 
> Do you have a thread here I can follow?


Da Nile, not just a river in Egypt. Your boundaries are fuzzier than Ukraine.

"he just put the tip in to keep from hurting her feelings, I know he loves me! "


----------



## turnera

IDK, I think he was fairly straightforward about not leading this OW on. Most people are not educated in NC and all it entails. I think he did pretty well.


----------



## Working1

I think if I were the OW, I would be discouraged by his response to me.
I also think that nothing works perfectly, there are possible slip ups along the way, if there weren't, forums like this wouldn't exist.

You need to somehow get him to admit without giving up your source! Then you can move forward with stronger boundaries in place.


----------



## PamJ

<<After years of being apart from her and committed to our family, he could have been just trying to be nice. If he wanted her back, he would have tried and he didn't. I wouldn't call his response "caring feelings". How could he still have those after all this time and being here for me? >>

But, look at what this is doing to you! After all this time it still churns in you that this is happening. Is his being "nice" to someone worth that? I know if I heard that my FWH's OW had contacted him again it would start it all up for me again. And, if I had found out without him telling me? I would be in a tailspin of doubt and insecurity and anger and all those emotions again.
THIS is why there can be NO CONTACT- it is not fair to you, no matter how innocent it may be. He should care enough to make sure this never happens, whatever that takes, blocking #'s getting his own new # , not ever responding if she still manages to get through. He should care enough to keep this from happening , again and again. He should know how such a 'nice' thing affects you, and he should care. Mine does.


----------



## turnera

Yes, you definitely need to talk to him about it.


----------



## lenzi

asia said:


> After years of being apart from her and committed to our family, he could have been just trying to be nice.


Why would your husband be nice to a woman who almost destroyed your family? If he was serious about reconciling with you, and he truly cared about your feelings, and he was truly remorseful and felt badly about what he did to you with the affair, he'd have nothing to do with her. 

She's a parasite who doesn't give a rat's ass about what she did to you. Think of all the pain this woman caused you.. and you're ok with your husband "just trying to be nice to her"..?

Really?



asia said:


> If he wanted her back, he would have tried and he didn't.


Maybe not this time. Doesn't matter if he never tries. What matters is that you are being deceived yet again because he kept this from you and he is not keeping his word which was not to be in contact with her. 

Since he IS responding to her, against your wishes and against the agreement the two of you have, it's clear that he gives too much weight to her feelings. She should be a nonissue- but it's clear she's more than that.



asia said:


> I wouldn't call his response "caring feelings". How could he still have those after all this time and being here for me?


You said yourself, he's 'trying to be nice'. That's because.. he CARES. Would he "just try to be nice" to a telemarketer or to someone who wronged him in some way? If you had an affair and the guy called your husband, would your husband "just try to be nice" by exchanging a few messages with him?

Of course not.

Your problems are far from over. And you're largely to blame for it because you allow this to perpetuate.


----------



## Working1

Problem is, there is still contact. Needs to not happen ever again in order for it to be in the past.


----------



## asia

You guys were all right. He never stopped cheating on me. I am not sure if they know about this site (I suspect so) so I may give some details and delete them in a few days.

There are two women at play here. The first one when he wanted divorce and the other one he started messing around with at the end of his affair and this entire time I thought we were in R. 

The two women ran into each other and the first (I will refer to as "main OW") confronted the other one. The other one ran off and the main lost it on my husband, to which he never responded. 

The main OW was going to tell me but my husband told me before she could. This was a few weeks ago and we heard nothing from the main so I thought she was just venting. Over the weekend my husband was with the second OW and word got back to the main. So she is now threatening to tell everyone including my family and friends what my husband has been doing. My husband emailed her and told her to buzz off that I was the one to tell him not to respond to her original email and that I knew and that she would never hear from him again. She then wrote back and blew everything I didn't know out of the water, including that the other woman was with him recently. Needless to say, we are ending things but I am nervous she is going to tell my family. I emailed her asking her not to cause me more pain because she caused enough but she said sorry I'm still telling everyone. She has a boyfriend so now this is simply revenge for her because he didn't apologize to her like she thought she deserved.

That's it in a nutshell.


----------



## Openminded

I'm very sorry, asia. 

The best thing is to tell your family before she can. 

I know it's difficult but you can get through this. And have a better life without always waiting for the other shoe to drop. 

Keeping good thoughts for you.


----------



## DoveEnigma13

It's a hard thing to do, but people need to know the truth. They will not look at you as weak for this happening to you. You will find that they are very supportive of your needs during this.


----------



## Acoa

I'm sorry for what you are going through. Don't fear the exposure, control it by putting the story out there for your family. 

My W cheated on me, her family is very supportive of how I'm handling things. It's a hard thing to deal with and it's going to hurt for a while, try not to isolate yourself.


----------



## COguy

Don't fear the exposure, it will help you heal, you need the support of your friends and family.

Sorry you are going through this, it really sucks. Maybe this kind of drama is what you needed to realize he's a POS and you can do better.

Also, please don't get in another relationship until you get some counseling and work your crap out. Clearly you have some internal stuff to work on, as you were in some serious denial that he was cheating despite glaring evidence. If you don't fix your relationship radar, you're bound to make the same mistakes again.


----------



## Jambri

Sorry to hear you are going through this. My heart was torn up like yours in the past so I know the feeling (although I wasn't married at the time, just dating).


----------



## asia

Thanks everyone. I do need to get in front of this before she does, if she is serious about doing it. At this point, we put up a united front to her but she that didn't work. The main told me that he doesn't love me and she is glad she got saved from being with him. 

I was caring and compassionate hoping she would see we were trying to make our marriage work, until she dropped the bomb that he was with the other one last weekend. I feel so stupid but relieved at the same time. I am in this weird holding place where I don't know how I should really be feeling. It's all so surreal that I am going through this again after he saw me dying in misery to do this another time. 

His main OW gets the last laugh at my expense. I don't even care enough to say anything to the other one. She was apparently in it for the sex and travel. My family already dislikes him, when they find this out, there will be no turning back. They would think I was crazy.

I was so fixated on him and the main, I didn't even consider him finding another woman. She was always my target and now she gets to have her life and piss on my marriage (once again). My husband is begging and pleading about his love for me and how much he hates her now. Yeah right!


----------



## COguy

asia said:


> Thanks everyone. I do need to get in front of this before she does, if she is serious about doing it. At this point, we put up a united front to her but she that didn't work. The main told me that he doesn't love me and she is glad she got saved from being with him.
> 
> I was caring and compassionate hoping she would see we were trying to make our marriage work, until she dropped the bomb that he was with the other one last weekend. I feel so stupid but relieved at the same time. I am in this weird holding place where I don't know how I should really be feeling. It's all so surreal that I am going through this again after he saw me dying in misery to do this another time.
> 
> His main OW gets the last laugh at my expense. I don't even care enough to say anything to the other one. She was apparently in it for the sex and travel. My family already dislikes him, when they find this out, there will be no turning back. They would think I was crazy.
> 
> I was so fixated on him and the main, I didn't even consider him finding another woman. She was always my target and now she gets to have her life and piss on my marriage (once again). My husband is begging and pleading about his love for me and how much he hates her now. Yeah right!


I was cheated on then cheated on again. I consider it a blessing because I would have felt guilty about breaking up the marriage if I hadn't known she was cheating the second time. It also allowed me to have a clean break where I didn't for one second consider Reconciliation. Yeah I was sad and torn up for a while but I at least didn't have to deal with regret.


----------



## dignityhonorpride

I'm so sorry to read this, Asia  

I agree with everyone else -- tell your family on your own terms. They already dislike your soon-to-be-ex; they're not going to blame any of this on you. 

What are your next steps? Are you able to move out, have you contacted an attorney, etc?


----------



## Openminded

Some cheaters are worth R and some are not. She did you a tremendous favor by telling you. Now tell your family so they can support you in this.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

asia said:


> I was so fixated on him and the main, I didn't even consider him finding another woman. She was always my target and now she gets to have her life and piss on my marriage (once again). My husband is begging and pleading about his love for me and how much he hates her now. Yeah right!


It doesnt matter if he really does hate her now, he had yet ANOTHER woman. He doesnt love you, he just needs to stop with trying to pull this crap. You dont do this to someone you love. I am so glad you are getting out of this.


----------



## turnera

asia said:


> His main OW gets the last laugh at my expense.


Are you kidding? YOU get the last laugh. YOU get to leave a cheating wh*re (your husband) in the dirt and move on and find someone of character. HE is losing someone of character. SHE - once you tell her boyfriend - will be losing someone of character. The second OW doesn't even matter. 

The only one in the whole group who's winning is you.

And PLEASE tell your family. You NEED them to know so they understand why you're doing what you're doing, and so they can BE your family and support you.


----------



## Calibre1212

Asia, I thought I was in it to experience a true reconciliation and to reconcile my family, not making my children a statistic...Driven by the altruistic, driven by honoring God. Well that's a bunch of baloney when you are the only one doing it and the other party has ulterior motives or are schooling themselves more on how to not get caught next time. Any day your spouse decides to get a go-phone, you will be moving from one realm of investigation to another. You are constantly assessing the quality of your life in the context of this marriage. Please do not waste years and years you cannot recover, living with this type of a human being. 

It is religion abuse too...The church supported it and the state, but the day came when I said enough is enough...God is my church. I was FORCED to think for myself and discard societal norms. I had to move on if I was going to preserve what was left of my dignity. I am asking you, to please never get to that place. It is going against the grain and this marriage you are living in, is a disappointing lie. Going against the grain is an even greater challenge that no one will like to take. These things can be too much. In the end, you draw boundaries for yourself rather than for another person.


----------



## asia

I'm so embarrassed. Do you have any idea how it feels to have your husband's other woman telling me he doesn't love me and how they had a life planned? I knew he was serious about her buy never heard her side before. They have been over for years but now she's out for blood. 

He wants to work things out and says he is willing to change. I have heard that so many times over the years. Why would he continue to do this? I feel so used and almost hated by him. I want to believe him but that is just my heart wanting this pain to end. There is no point staying anymore. I don't know why he even came back before. He didn't have to come back just to keep hurting me. I would have been further along in my new life if he hadn't come back. 

So from what I guess, he couldn't cheat on the main one and have the second one so he came back to me where he could cake eat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You should feel used. You should hate him. You should NOT be embarrassed - you should be mad as HELL.

And he came back because you're easy.

Prove him wrong.


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## asia

turnera said:


> You should feel used. You should hate him. You should NOT be embarrassed - you should be mad as HELL.
> 
> And he came back because you're easy.
> 
> Prove him wrong.


I know you guys are going to blast me but this is how I feel. I wish he would have never told me about this and just gave the main one what she wanted. I would have never learned of this new one, my reputation wouldn't be threatened, and my life would have go on. Now my entire life has been blown to bits by an old relationship that I had forgiven him for. The second girl is nothing in this buy it looks like she is the one that my husband will end up with. She lives across the country and goes everywhere with him. All while I'm making the home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Calibre1212

My God! What horrible women. Your husband surely knows how to pick them. If they are this bold-faced and shameful in their behaviors, fighting over a married man in public with his wife's knowledge? ...What are they like in private? Germs. My God, how many men have they been with so much so that they could be this badly damaged? A testament of their self-respect? Big mistake to tell her not to reveal to your family. Every fear you have is a weapon for your enemies, remember that. Never let another person know which string they can dangle you from. I used to be a lot like you, naiive...You are gonna have to zip up those boots baby and walk all over them.


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## asia

This is just me venting outwardly. Just feel so disrespected. And someone mentioned his main other woman bf. They only became a couple last year so she was not cheating on him. He is supporting her in my destruction because he feels it's the right thing to do. (Expose my husband)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

asia, once you've moved on legally, the emotional part will follow. Look for that 50K view.


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## COguy

He was true to his nature, your issue was not being able to spot it.

That's the issue you're going to have to work on once the grieving process is over.

Ever hear the tale of the scorpion and the frog?

AesopFables.com - The Scorpion and the Frog - General Fable collection

The frog can't blame the scorpion for acting on its nature, it needs to look inward to figure out why it let the scorpion hitch a ride in the first place.


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## asia

Calibre1212 said:


> My God! What horrible women. Your husband surely knows how to pick them. If they are this bold-faced and shameful in their behaviors, fighting over a married man in public with his wife's knowledge? ...What are they like in private? Germs. My God, how many men have they been with so much so that they could be this badly damaged? A testament of their self-respect? Big mistake to tell her not to reveal to your family. Every fear you have is a weapon for your enemies, remember that. Never let another person know which string they can dangle you from. I used to be a lot like you, naiive...You are gonna have to zip up those boots baby and walk all over them.


I know right? They are both pitiful. My husband gave that main one license to do this in the first place. In her mind, he cheated on her and she thinks she has the right to her say. The second one lied to her on my husband's behalf. He thought he got away with this for two years until they bumped into each other. Then he ignored the main one until he could not anymore and told me. We heard nothing for a few weeks then BAM she's exposing everything because he didn't apologize. And he had the nerve to try and pin thus all on her when he's been cheating with someone else. He is sick. I'm just the blockhead that thought I was in a recovering marriage when all along he's been cake eating. He's trying to direct all anger on the main one. But this time, I'm holding HIM accountable. The main one has been the one in control since this all went down but now she's threatening exposure, I'm at her mercy. I thought about waiting her out to see but I can't live like that. I just need to ability to tell my family what's been going on. Do I tel them everything or just this story?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coldie

I'm just curious how you saw his text messages and heard his phone conversations with the main OW?

Was the software programmed to only pick up one specific number?


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## Openminded

Tell your family everything. Every last bit of it. It will make you free. I concealed my husband cheating 30 years ago and told not a single soul. I stuffed it because I decided to R and I didn't want anyone knowing. 

When he cheated a few years ago with the same AP, and I decided to divorce the second time and not reconcile, I did tell family and friends that I was done and I then told them about him cheating 30 years ago. I wanted them all to know that I felt played by being in what was false R for those 30 years because who knows if he was really done with her then. I doubt it. 

And that's what I am praying you avoid in all of this. Don't let yourself get played again. Yes, you were used and so was I. Now you can fix it. Get your self-respect and your life back!!!


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## Openminded

And, yes, the main one does feel like she was his true love, not you, and that he was cheating on her. 

I would say the vast majority (maybe even everyone) who followed your story felt he was still cheating. Understandably, you didn't want to believe he was. You should be very grateful to the main one this all came out because otherwise he would have played you forever. If I could turn back the clock and divorce my ex-husband 30 years ago when I should have and not last year when I did I certainly would do it. I lost 30 years in false R. Believe me, you don't want that.


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## asia

Coldie said:


> I'm just curious how you saw his text messages and heard his phone conversations with the main OW?
> 
> Was the software programmed to only pick up one specific number?


He added me to the email chain and I read the main one's email that explained all the details from when she found out about the second one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Oh I'm sorry you are referring to before. No I had software installed so I could keep an eye on him. He must have used another phone for the second one.


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## asia

Openminded said:


> Tell your family everything. Every last bit of it. It will make you free. I concealed my husband cheating 30 years ago and told not a single soul. I stuffed it because I decided to R and I didn't want anyone knowing.
> 
> When he cheated a few years ago with the same AP, and I decided to divorce the second time and not reconcile, I did tell family and friends that I was done and I then told them about him cheating 30 years ago. I wanted them all to know that I felt played by being in what was false R for those 30 years because who knows if he was really done with her then. I doubt it.
> 
> And that's what I am praying you avoid in all of this. Don't let yourself get played again. Yes, you were used and so was I. Now you can fix it. Get your self-respect and your life back!!!


How did your family react when you told them?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

asia said:


> How did your family react when you told them?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What are you so afraid of with your family?? How are they supposed to be there for you to support you if you dont tell them the truth?? You can gain so much strength having them inside the circle! TELL THEM before the OW does! She has actually done you a tremendous favor in forcing this out!


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## asia

3Xnocharm said:


> What are you so afraid of with your family?? How are they supposed to be there for you to support you if you dont tell them the truth?? You can gain so much strength having them inside the circle! TELL THEM before the OW does! She has actually done you a tremendous favor in forcing this out!


I don't want them to know how much I've dealt with over the years. I feel dumb and them knowing makes me hurt more. T hey never liked him and if she tells them all she knows, it's probably more than I even know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Do you have a dysfunctional family that will use this against you or something? If not, let them BE your family by supporting you in your time of need. You shouldn't have to fee dumb about your own family.


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## Openminded

After I told my family what happened 30 years ago, in addition to what happened a few years ago, they certainly did look at me like I was crazy. But you can't control what others think of your actions. I'm not embarrassed they know that I stayed 30 years ago and should not have. We live and learn. The important thing is that we don't keep repeating the same mistakes.


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## Openminded

asia said:


> How did your family react when you told them?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They were completely shocked. They couldn't believe it. And, yes, they wondered why on earth I stayed the first time once they found out about the second time. And I'm sure they felt I was stupid and that I was played because I was. But they are supportive that I corrected that mistake although I lost 30 years in the process. And your family will be supportive that you are correcting your mistake too.


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## PamJ

<<His main OW gets the last laugh at my expense. I don't even care enough to say anything to the other one. She was apparently in it for the sex and travel. My family already dislikes him, when they find this out, there will be no turning back. They would think I was crazy.

I was so fixated on him and the main, I didn't even consider him finding another woman. She was always my target and now she gets to have her life and piss on my marriage (once again). My husband is begging and pleading about his love for me and how much he hates her now. Yeah right!>>

Do not worry about what the OW gets or thinks or says about you. She is nothing but a cheater herself for being with a married man. She holds no power over you and is lashing out at the one she can hurt the most right now.

DO tell you family. It will serve two purposes. First it will give you the support you need. You tried to keep your family together by forgiving him. That's all they need to know.

Secondly it will finally put everything out there , out from under the cloak of secrecy and shame that you feel, although you shouldn't. It will allow YOU to move on because there will be no going back should you start to falter if he is still trying to win you back. When times get tough sometimes it's easier to go with the familiar, which in your case is not a healthy place to be, but sometimes it's more comfortable, predictable, safe, even.

With your family's knowledge of what has happened you can lean on them to stay strong. Having everything out in the open is always better.

Because, as my tagline says:


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## vi_bride04

Sorry to read this update. Hope this causes you to leave him for good. Serial cheaters never change.


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## asia

Update.

Everyone knows. I told my family we were breaking up, he told his family and is now living with them. The main other woman did tell my church and had my husband removed from his duties (not the pastor or anything). She sent me a very long letter explaining their relationship in detail and pretty much let me know that my husband had every single intention of marrying her. He did ask me for divorce so I couldn't even lie to myself about his feelings for her. She told me I was in denial and that SHE was going to handle him as I always let him get away with this. SHE wasn't having it. SHE was going to hold his feet to the fire by telling everyone. What nerve! 

I kicked him out and I am leaving for a few weeks to get away. I told my job I needed leave for a bit. My daughter heard some of our big arguments so I took her to my parents for a few days as well. My husband kept trying to say lets work it out until she sent the last letter. There was nothing he could say because she made it clear she was coming after him. She hates him now and thinks he's scum. He replied to the email chain that we are all on and said he was fine with her telling everyone about him. He also said he had dirt on her and was going to use it against her and "let's see who comes out on top" were his exact words. Not "go away" or I love my wife so stop emailing us or anything to protect me. No, he wants to jump bad to her, but she never responded since (she said that would be her last time contacting either of us, so far she hasn't yet). 

So I go check his texts usage and guess what? He started texting her about how he had pictures and video of them together and was going to send it to her boyfriend. He said "I am getting hard just watching them again". Then a few days later, he texts her again saying she got what she wanted and he realized he was finally free for the first time in his life and this was his new start. He thanked her and said he wasn't going to get revenge, he was just going to live well and that would be his revenge. She hasn't responded to anything he sent yet and its been almost two weeks or so.

Why if he was so serious about us working it out would he be texting her after she just blew up his entire life for any reason whatsoever???? He is going to have to pay child support and can't see our daughter when he wants and he reaches out to HER? My marriage is over and he wants revenge on HER? He STILL doesn't get boundaries. Not that there is anything to work out anymore. I am going to stop with the spyware and deplug from the internet while I'm away. I have some medication and anti depressants. My therapist is going to Skype with me if I need it (the only internet I will use).

How could I be so blind for so long? Everyone in my life knew my husband was a bum and I just went along for the ride. Is there a kick me sign on my back?


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## turnera

No, it's just part of growing older, becoming wiser. A path most of us take (not all). Best wishes.


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## clipclop2

You should understand that his main concern is shutting her up and protecting himself. You are a footnote at best.

I think you should rejoice that the first OW is doing the dirty work. Why not?

They will blow up all over one another. Just desserts.


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## COguy

You really need to stop reading his texts. It's over, he's a POS, there's no further point of hurting yourself.

Start detaching, don't stay sucked into his drama.


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## Openminded

Why was he texting her? Because, despite what he said, he wasn't ever really focused on you and R. And now you know it and can get your life back. I know it's difficult but you can do it -- one step at a time. Focus on getting through today. And then the day after that. Before you know it, you'll be on the other side.


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## Rugs

asia said:


> Update.
> 
> Everyone knows. I told my family we were breaking up, he told his family and is now living with them. The main other woman did tell my church and had my husband removed from his duties (not the pastor or anything). She sent me a very long letter explaining their relationship in detail and pretty much let me know that my husband had every single intention of marrying her. He did ask me for divorce so I couldn't even lie to myself about his feelings for her. She told me I was in denial and that SHE was going to handle him as I always let him get away with this. SHE wasn't having it. SHE was going to hold his feet to the fire by telling everyone. What nerve!
> 
> I kicked him out and I am leaving for a few weeks to get away. I told my job I needed leave for a bit. My daughter heard some of our big arguments so I took her to my parents for a few days as well. My husband kept trying to say lets work it out until she sent the last letter. There was nothing he could say because she made it clear she was coming after him. She hates him now and thinks he's scum. He replied to the email chain that we are all on and said he was fine with her telling everyone about him. He also said he had dirt on her and was going to use it against her and "let's see who comes out on top" were his exact words. Not "go away" or I love my wife so stop emailing us or anything to protect me. No, he wants to jump bad to her, but she never responded since (she said that would be her last time contacting either of us, so far she hasn't yet).
> 
> So I go check his texts usage and guess what? He started texting her about how he had pictures and video of them together and was going to send it to her boyfriend. He said "I am getting hard just watching them again". Then a few days later, he texts her again saying she got what she wanted and he realized he was finally free for the first time in his life and this was his new start. He thanked her and said he wasn't going to get revenge, he was just going to live well and that would be his revenge. She hasn't responded to anything he sent yet and its been almost two weeks or so.
> 
> Why if he was so serious about us working it out would he be texting her after she just blew up his entire life for any reason whatsoever???? He is going to have to pay child support and can't see our daughter when he wants and he reaches out to HER? My marriage is over and he wants revenge on HER? He STILL doesn't get boundaries. Not that there is anything to work out anymore. I am going to stop with the spyware and deplug from the internet while I'm away. I have some medication and anti depressants. My therapist is going to Skype with me if I need it (the only internet I will use).
> 
> How could I be so blind for so long? Everyone in my life knew my husband was a bum and I just went along for the ride. Is there a kick me sign on my back?


Asia, 

It seems at this point, you are too involved with these people and their drama. You really need to stop reading and responding to emails. 

You need to move on in order to heal.

This has been unhealthy for you for a very long time and by now you should realize it's over and check yourself out of all these relationship. 

Your time would be better spent on talking to a lawyer and planning a better future for yourself. 

It does no good to torture yourself with this insane and immature drama. Remove yourself and you win!!


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## phillybeffandswiss

clipclop2 said:


> \
> I think you should rejoice that the first OW is doing the dirty work.


This is exactly what I was thinking, but was loathe to say. Yes, it hurts, it sucks, you are confused and you still love him. You can feel all of those things away from him and the drama. You WILL heal much faster when you aren't concerning yourself with their drama.

He's a cheater, liar and a time waster. Time is precious and before you know it, it is gone. Don't waste your time on a crappy man.


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## asia

clipclop2 said:


> You should understand that his main concern is shutting her up and protecting himself. You are a footnote at best.
> 
> I think you should rejoice that the first OW is doing the dirty work. Why not?
> 
> They will blow up all over one another. Just desserts.


I don't understand why I should be happy she outed him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## asia

Openminded said:


> Why was he texting her? Because, despite what he said, he wasn't ever really focused on you and R. And now you know it and can get your life back. I know it's difficult but you can do it -- one step at a time. Focus on getting through today. And then the day after that. Before you know it, you'll be on the other side.


Yeah its all been extremely hard. My marriage is over. I don't know how I am going to get over all of this pain and anger I have. I know what needs to be done but it hurts facing the fact that my husband was with someone else that entire time. And double sucks that after everything he said about hating the other woman that I've been in contact with, she is the one he texts to get a reaction from.

Do you PM anymore Openminded?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## asia

Rugs said:


> Asia,
> 
> It seems at this point, you are too involved with these people and their drama. You really need to stop reading and responding to emails.
> 
> You need to move on in order to heal.
> 
> This has been unhealthy for you for a very long time and by now you should realize it's over and check yourself out of all these relationship.
> 
> Your time would be better spent on talking to a lawyer and planning a better future for yourself.
> 
> It does no good to torture yourself with this insane and immature drama. Remove yourself and you win!!


Yeah Rugs I said I wasn't going to check anymore and I haven't since I made that decision. It crushed me further when I saw the texts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## asia

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This is exactly what I was thinking, but was loathe to say. Yes, it hurts, it sucks, you are confused and you still love him. You can feel all of those things away from him and the drama. You WILL heal much faster when you aren't concerning yourself with their drama.
> 
> He's a cheater, liar and a time waster. Time is precious and before you know it, it is gone. Don't waste your time on a crappy man.


It has been peaceful since I kicked him out. My daughter is going to suffer from all of this. I need to start preparing for that while I'm gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded

asia said:


> Yeah its all been extremely hard. My marriage is over. I don't know how I am going to get over all of this pain and anger I have. I know what needs to be done but it hurts facing the fact that my husband was with someone else that entire time. And double sucks that after everything he said about hating the other woman that I've been in contact with, she is the one he texts to get a reaction from.
> 
> Do you PM anymore Openminded?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I have PM turned off now. I got some I wasn't thrilled with. 

I never got the truth from my ex-husband about how long his affair lasted. It's possible it was the entire 30 years -- certainly a big part of it if it wasn't all. Interestingly, when I told him I was divorcing him he didn't turn to her, as I expected would be the case, but immediately found someone else and was married the moment the judge signed the final decree. 

And, yes, it was tough to accept that a huge portion of my life was a lie so I know very well how you feel. And it's why I'm hesitant about the potential success of any R and I was very apprehensive about yours. Some do succeed and succeed very well. The rest? Well, sometimes cheaters remain cheaters.


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## 3Xnocharm

asia said:


> I don't understand why I should be happy she outed him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because he is getting what he deserves. Because KARMA. Because now YOU dont have to do it. 

Your WH is one of the lowest of the lowlifes that I have read about on here.


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## turnera

asia said:


> I don't understand why I should be happy she outed him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because she did what someone needed to do - punish his sorry ass.


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## asia

Openminded said:


> I think I have PM turned off now. I got some I wasn't thrilled with.
> 
> I never got the truth from my ex-husband about how long his affair lasted. It's possible it was the entire 30 years -- certainly a big part of it if it wasn't all. Interestingly, when I told him I was divorcing him he didn't turn to her, as I expected would be the case, but immediately found someone else and was married the moment the judge signed the final decree.
> 
> And, yes, it was tough to accept that a huge portion of my life was a lie so I know very well how you feel. And it's why I'm hesitant about the potential success of any R and I was very apprehensive about yours. Some do succeed and succeed very well. The rest? Well, sometimes cheaters remain cheaters.


The tough part is that I gave him so many chances to do right and work on our family. I forgave and forgave and did everything I knew to do to be a good wife. I found out so many things I didn't know from the other woman it would make your head spin. My husband was living an extra life and I was none the wiser. I found out about the second other woman two months ago and it was only because the main other woman was threatening him. He feed me some bull and I was willing to move forward with the marriage. He seemed serious about keeping us together but how dumb was I? The main other woman knew much more about my husband then I did.

He is probably still with the second other woman; I don't even care. The main one is through with him. She told me he didn't love me and she was right. How could he ever loved me and cheat on me this much? Essentially, he left his main other woman to come back home and continue to cheat with the second one. So he figured he could keep his home and have her on the side. Why didn't he just leave the first time? He could have done this to the main other woman, why me? Why do this to me? I have been throwing irrational fits all week.


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## turnera

For future reference, instead of forgiving and forgiving, what you SHOULD have been doing is helping him experience SEVERE CONSEQUENCES. So that he'd think twice before hitting on yet another woman.


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## asia

turnera said:


> For future reference, instead of forgiving and forgiving, what you SHOULD have been doing is helping him experience SEVERE CONSEQUENCES. So that he'd think twice before hitting on yet another woman.


I wanted my marriage so bad that I didn't tell anyone what was going on really. And now the OW got to do what probably should have been my job to do. She had him removed from ministry with one phone call. I am so embarrassed over that. And he STILL reached out to her and let her know his life was ruined. I can't even express how angry I am over all of this! Especially when everyone here was telling me he was still up to his old and current tricks. I removed him from all of my online pictures and took down all of the ones in our home. I am going to thrive after we are divorced!


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## phillybeffandswiss

asia said:


> I wanted my marriage so bad that I didn't tell anyone what was going on really.


You won't be the first, nor will you be the last, to think this way. We have an entire group who believe the marriage must be saved at all costs. Another group who believe exposure is vindictive and all about revenge. I have seen very few instances, on this board and life, where "niceing" the cheater back into the marriage worked. More often than not, the story ends up like yours. The Betrayed finds out there was more than one affair partner or they never ended contact and the cheaters took it further underground.

Yep, it might drive them further away, but I'd rather be lonely than share a bed with a cheater. I barely came to grips with a possible EA, let alone if I found out there was sex with more than one person.


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## clipclop2

You are going to be ok. Be angry just don't be surprised because he did everything the way he is built to do them. He is selfish and only concerned for himself. For the first time he is paying a price.

You protected him by what you thought would protect you. But all you did was isolate yourself.

Cheaters are abusing you. When an abuser gets you to isolate yourself from others they erode your support. Doing so gives them more power. If you are too afraid to let others know they have no fear.


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## Openminded

asia said:


> The tough part is that I gave him so many chances to do right and work on our family. I forgave and forgave and did everything I knew to do to be a good wife. I found out so many things I didn't know from the other woman it would make your head spin. My husband was living an extra life and I was none the wiser. I found out about the second other woman two months ago and it was only because the main other woman was threatening him. He feed me some bull and I was willing to move forward with the marriage. He seemed serious about keeping us together but how dumb was I? The main other woman knew much more about my husband then I did.
> 
> He is probably still with the second other woman; I don't even care. The main one is through with him. She told me he didn't love me and she was right. How could he ever loved me and cheat on me this much? Essentially, he left his main other woman to come back home and continue to cheat with the second one. So he figured he could keep his home and have her on the side. Why didn't he just leave the first time? He could have done this to the main other woman, why me? Why do this to me? I have been throwing irrational fits all week.


He stayed because he didn't want a divorce. My ex-husband didn't either. It's about getting whatever they want. You and I were both played. I had to forgive myself for choosing to R when my instincts 30 years ago said not to and I ignored them. 

Time heals. It's the only thing that does. The trick is letting go of the bitterness before it completely takes over. I couldn't believe my life was turning out that way. I felt I had to be wrong about all of that. But I wasn't. However, now it's the past and I've moved on. You will too.


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## Openminded

As for not exposing, the first time I was so embarrassed that I didn't want anyone to know I was in R. The second time I exposed to family and friends because I wanted them to understand why I was ending a very long marriage. At that point, I didn't care if they felt I was stupid to R three decades ago (which they did).


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## asia

Openminded said:


> He stayed because he didn't want a divorce.


This is what I am struggling with. He asked me for divorce. He moved out and left us for a few months. Why didn't he just stay gone? I would have been that much further along in healing. 

His OW said he knew she didn't put up with cheating. So basically, I'm left with wondering if he took advantage of me because he couldn't with her. I feel like an after thought in all of this mess. Like this was between them and I never mattered. He has these women fighting over him and I am running around like we are the happy couple. 

He acts like his world is over and FINALLY gets what he's been doing wrong. He kept telling me she wouldn't out him and she was bluffing. Then he acted all surprised when the church asked us to come and speak with them. Can you imagine another woman calling your church talking about their affair with your husband? These are people I have been with for years and years. And right after he hits his lowest point, he texts her to say he thanks her for a fresh start in this life and not going to take revenge on her. All of his words mean nothing to me. It's like I don't know this person I am married to at all. He's like a terrorist in my life.


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## Openminded

No, you really didn't know him. For whatever reason he changed his mind about divorce and chose to return to his family after leaving for a few months. It's not possible to know why. You will never understand his actions. 

Love? Who knows if men like him are even capable of love. I don't think my ex-husband is. But that's no longer my problem. Detachment is a great thing. It will get you through.


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## VFW

Both your STXH and the OW are very selfish people, it is all about them. If it hadn't been her, it would have been someone else and was for awhile. You are a kind and loving individual and deserve a better life than all the turmoil that these two will always have in there life. They aren't happy with themselves so it will always be their modus operendi. Concentrate on yourself and daughter.


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## clipclop2

He still has feelings for her.


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## PamJ

<<Why if he was so serious about us working it out would he be texting her after she just blew up his entire life for any reason whatsoever???? He is going to have to pay child support and can't see our daughter when he wants and he reaches out to HER?>>

I think you just answered your own question here. He wanted it all, and doesn't want the fallout now, especially the $$ he will be paying.


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## phillybeffandswiss

asia said:


> This is what I am struggling with. He asked me for divorce. He moved out and left us for a few months. Why didn't he just stay gone? I would have been that much further along in healing.


 I say this not be mean, but why did you let him back? This is the question you truly need to answer to heal. 



> His OW said he knew she didn't put up with cheating. So basically, I'm left with wondering if he took advantage of me because he couldn't with her. I feel like an after thought in all of this mess. Like this was between them and I never mattered. He has these women fighting over him and I am running around like we are the happy couple.


 The more you type, the more this sounds like "I am getting divorced, the papers just need to be signed, "then the AP found out it was a lie. I'm not trying to give her an out, but it is rare to see an AP react in this fashion. To be honest, it sounds like a betrayed spouse form TAM with the level of exposure going on.


> And right after he hits his lowest point, he texts her to say he thanks her for a fresh start in this life and not going to take revenge on her. All of his words mean nothing to me. It's like I don't know this person I am married to at all. He's like a terrorist in my life.


Take revenge how? Tell on her? Your husband is irrational and you need to get away from him.


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## asia

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I say this not be mean, but why did you let him back? This is the question you truly need to answer to heal.
> 
> The more you type, the more this sounds like "I am getting divorced, the papers just need to be signed, "then the AP found out it was a lie. I'm not trying to give her an out, but it is rare to see an AP react in this fashion. To be honest, it sounds like a betrayed spouse form TAM with the level of exposure going on.
> Take revenge how? Tell on her? Your husband is irrational and you need to get away from him.


I took him back because I loved him and wanted my family intact. 

It is apparent from the way she talks about my husband that in her mind, she was betrayed and he owes her. As if I am not even in the picture. She said they were planning a life together and she felt he lied to her, felt ashamed to have loved him, and wanted him to be accountable to her. Even went as far as to say "since he never was held responsible for cheating before, that SHE was going to be the one to do it". Actually told me that. 

After he read the last communication she sent, he responded (after telling her he would never respond to her again in life) that he was going to make her pay and look bad. That he had stuff on her too and was going to embarrass her. He was planning to tell her boyfriend he had video of them. Then after she went through with exposing him at our church, he again texted her saying he wasn't going to get revenge and that she got everything she wanted, he was now homeless, lost his church and family was destroyed. Said he was mad and going to expose her but realized he was free, had a new start in life, and going to live well as his revenge. All of that to the woman that blew up his life. He acted like he hated her but he wanted to twist the knife in her I guess.


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## clipclop2

He still cares about what she thinks. She whipped him good.


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## Openminded

I'm sure she's angry at herself and at him because she believed him when he said he would marry her. She never thought there would be someone else besides her. And, no, she didn't feel you counted. Probably because that's what he told her. 

He was naive to think she wouldn't expose him after she saw him and the second other woman. 

And, yes, he still cares what she thinks.


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## phillybeffandswiss

asia said:


> I took him back because I loved him and wanted my family intact.


 But it wasn't and isn't intact since he cheated.



> \"since he never was held responsible for cheating before, that SHE was going to be the one to do it". Actually told me that.


 Well, I don't want to hurt you, while bold and wrong to say this to you, this part is true. He kept it up because you gave him what he wanted multiple sex partners, no accountability and his intact family. Why would he stop?



> After he read the last communication she sent, he responded (after telling her he would never respond to her again in life) that he was going to make her pay and look bad. That he had stuff on her too and was going to embarrass her. He was planning to tell her boyfriend he had video of them. Then after she went through with exposing him at our church, he again texted her saying he wasn't going to get revenge and that she got everything she wanted, he was now homeless, lost his church and family was destroyed. Said he was mad and going to expose her but realized he was free, had a new start in life, and going to live well as his revenge. All of that to the woman that blew up his life. He acted like he hated her but he wanted to twist the knife in her I guess.


This is what you see. What I see is a man doing more to interact with his AP, rather than working with you.


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## asia

Openminded said:


> I'm sure she's angry at herself and at him because she believed him when he said he would marry her. She never thought there would be someone else besides her. And, no, she didn't feel you counted. Probably because that's what he told her.
> 
> He was naive to think she wouldn't expose him after she saw him and the second other woman.
> 
> And, yes, he still cares what she thinks.


She said that too. That she felt he pulled the wool over her eyes. They haven't been together in two years so for her to still be upset tells me she still had feelings for him. For him to text her after everything happened tells me he still has feelings for her. He was naive in that he didn't know she was planning a nuclear exposure. Im thinking he just told me thinking he was taking away her power. And planned on keeping the second other woman for as long as he could. He swears the second other woman doesn't matter and she was only for sex.

But I keep going back to the same questions.....he could have cheated on the main other woman and stayed away from us. He came back to us to KEEP cheating on me. I was happy in a way when I found out he cheated on the main other woman because she now knows she wasn't so special. He didn't love her either.

Yet, you guys think he still cares about her and I don't see that because he was going to humiliate her if he could. Not sure what made him tell her he changed his mind. He could have just let her think her world was blowing up too and not do anything. She didn't need to be informed of what happened to him.


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## Openminded

Yes, I do think he cares about her. He was very angry at her at first. But not now. 

They both still care.


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## turnera

Who cares who he cares for? He's a putz. 'nuf said.


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## asia

Openminded said:


> Yes, I do think he cares about her. He was very angry at her at first. But not now.
> 
> They both still care.


And nobody cares about me and my daughter. 

He's over with his family playing the poor me card. I refuse to speak to him right now. He said he would give me my space like he doesn't think we can't get past this. He doesn't understand that there is no more going back and getting past anything.

His main OW knew things about my marriage that were only meant for us. She knew about how his family operated and things like that. I mean, she knows my husband the same way I do. It's just crazy.

The second one was willing to just hang around with him. She loves him from what I can tell but I don't think he thinks of her the same way as he did the main one. 

I only want to do what's best for me from now on. I am going to get an attorney soon. My family is super supportive and I am glad they aren't coming down on me (to my face at least).


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## turnera

asia said:


> I refuse to speak to him.


About time.


----------



## Openminded

It's difficult to let go of the thought that they should have put us first and cared most about us. Yes, they should. But they didn't and so we need to let go of that. When I decided to end my marriage I stopped wondering how my husband could have blown up our family and instead I began focusing on myself. 

I now look upon my ex-husband as a close friend (never thought I would be able to say that) and I get along very well with his new wife when I see her at family functions (never thought I would say that either but she was not his affair partner and that made it easier). 

All of that is possible because I let go of the idea of what "we" were and instead focused on who I am. And that's a strong, happy person who no longer is married to someone who didn't put her first and who didn't care most about her. It's a good place to be.


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## phillybeffandswiss

turnera said:


> Who cares who he cares for? He's a putz. 'nuf said.


She needs to realize it, that's why I care.



> (to my face at least).


Stop the negative talk. If they are supporting you that's what matters, not what you think they could or might be saying possibly behind your back.


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## Remains

asia said:


> I took him back because I loved him and wanted my family intact.
> 
> It is apparent from the way she talks about my husband that in her mind, she was betrayed and he owes her. As if I am not even in the picture. She said they were planning a life together and she felt he lied to her, felt ashamed to have loved him, and wanted him to be accountable to her. Even went as far as to say "since he never was held responsible for cheating before, that SHE was going to be the one to do it". Actually told me that.
> 
> After he read the last communication she sent, he responded (after telling her he would never respond to her again in life) that he was going to make her pay and look bad. That he had stuff on her too and was going to embarrass her. He was planning to tell her boyfriend he had video of them. Then after she went through with exposing him at our church, he again texted her saying he wasn't going to get revenge and that she got everything she wanted, he was now homeless, lost his church and family was destroyed. Said he was mad and going to expose her but realized he was free, had a new start in life, and going to live well as his revenge. All of that to the woman that blew up his life. He acted like he hated her but he wanted to twist the knife in her I guess.


This woman, honestly, she did you a massive favour. 
It sounds from what you say that she was played by him, just as you were (except you were his wife). No doubt he gave the usual lines of 'oh I'm so unhappy, no sex, no love, my wife doesn't understand me but you do' etc. She did what you should have done...though I completely understand why you did not. You are married, have children, it is harder...but....even so, this woman was not one to mess with. This is how you should model your behaviour. Make him know you are not to be messed with! Clearly he respects her, he is still pandering to her even though she blew his life up! You know, the one who takes no sh1t and is hard to get, of course she will be the one who commands most respect! Sorry, but from the outside it is clear. Stop being his doormat! The only reason she gets respect from him is because she demands it.


----------



## Remains

asia said:


> Yet, you guys think he still cares about her and I don't see that because he was going to humiliate her if he could. Not sure what made him tell her he changed his mind. He could have just let her think her world was blowing up too and not do anything. She didn't need to be informed of what happened to him.


He didn't humiliate her either because he had nothing on her or because he didn't want to lose favour with her. Simple as that. 
Him humiliating her was said in anger. He knows that that will create worse for him (you will also see the humiliating offences and he will burn the bridges of his safe marriage to do so....or more likely, humiliate himself in the exposure) and so he won't do it.


----------



## Remains

I have just finished reading u our thread. Not been on this forum for a while as I've been sorting my own crap relationship out! Just ordered a book from amazon which I was given on this forum some time ago. I think it may be of use to you too. The book is 'why does he do that: inside the minds of angry and controlling men. By Lundy Bancroft. I think you may find some similarities in here and some further reasons to stay away and keep away.

www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Does-He-That-C...09610200&sr=1-1&keywords=why+does+he+do+that?


----------



## asia

Update.

My husband is engaged. Yes you read that correctly. My husband who is still married to me has asked his OW to marry him three weeks ago. A month or so after I kicked him out. 

He told me about this because he thought his main OW was going to tell me. She didn’t but after speaking with him, I did reach out to her to get more information. She confirmed everything he said pretty much but my husband is still a total liar.

Here is how it went (this is a combination of my conversations with husband and emails with main OW). My husband travels and both his main other woman and now second OW turned “fiancé” was on the same trip (they all run in the same circle of friends. The main OW had stopped for a while and recently returned to the scene.) My husband sees the main OW first and looks at her until she notices him and she frowns and turns away quickly. 

Next time, my husband and second OW turned “fiancé” approaches main OW and her friends. Everyone speaks except main OW. My husband goes as far as to extend his hand in peace offering/friendship/let bygones by bygones sort of way to the main OW and main OW doesn’t shake his hand for a long time. She finally does and my husband goes on to say everything is fine, he is the one who lost everything, that I am divorcing him and living with his parents. He goes onto say he is glad to be free and taking this as a new start. (The exact same thing he texted her after she had him kicked out of our church but never responded) The main OW says “I see she is with you and you look happy”, he then tells her he is and they are engaged. He expresses that he told me how much he loves his “fiancé” and that everything is out in the open so she could tell me and there would be no problems. 

He goes on to defend his “fiancé” over some harassing that went on between the main and second OW right after my husband ended things with the main OW a few years ago. But tells the main one he wants to trace the emails and if he finds out his “fiancé” sent them, she would have to pay the consequences. The “fiancé” is standing there listening to the entire conversation. The main OW reminds my husband of his cheating on her and me and he says, “I never cheated on you, ever. After we broke up, I tried to work things out with my wife but they still weren’t right and that’s when my and “fiancé” started together”. But I never cheated on you, just cheated on my wife. Why would I have to lie now? I have no reason to lie to you. Then he went to admit he lied to the main OW about taking a trip with the “fiancé”. So the main OW said she just shook her head and sat back down. She couldn’t believe my husband was still lying about cheating on her. I told her he admitted it to me. So apparently for the rest of the travel trip, they only ran into each other a few times. My husband says he was working a lot, main OW thinks his “fiancé” was hiding from her.

I asked my husband how could he be engaged when we are still married and he said since I am divorcing him, he is ready to live his life. I asked him was he moving across the country where she lives and he says he’s not sure. For the past two years, he has been home more than away so they could have only seen each other maybe once a weekend every month or so. Except during the summer where she has more freedom to travel. I think this travel trip is the longest they can spend with each other since it’s oversees for a week. So I guess for the past two years, they have spent a total of two months together physically if you add all the days up. And he is now ready to marry this woman who was willing to be with my husband while we were together and when he had the main OW. What a prize she is.

Before anyone asks/says I shouldn’t be this involved since we are divorcing, you are right. I don’t speak to him anymore but he wanted to beat the main OW to the punch by telling me. She had no intention of contacting me again so he blew it himself. We only speak briefly regarding my daughter and I haven’t had a long conversation with him until this all came out.

Here are my questions for TAM:

1.	Has anyone else had this happen to him or her?
2.	I am now going for alimony; does his getting engaged interfere with that?
3.	Can I keep my daughter away from her at least until the divorce is final or before his remarriage?
4.	What else can I stick him for?
5.	Can he REALLY be in love with this woman or is it all fantasy since he begged me to keep him when I found out?
6.	Why is he still lying about cheating on main OW when he admitted it to me?
7.	Why is he still speaking to her after she has exposed him, ruined our marriage (I know he did but she told) and wants her to know he will avenge her if he finds out his “fiancé” did in fact harass her years ago?
8.	Why would his “fiancé” even allow him to talk to the main OW even if he did want to tell her they were engaged? Why do they give this woman so much power?
9.	How can I ask his family to help me keep him from marrying her? I keep thinking he is going to take all of the lessons from our failed marriage and be a good husband to her.
10.	Should I contact the “fiancé” and let her know she can’t be around my daughter?

I am extra hurt on learning of his engagement. But I am even madder that he has such a lack of respect for me. He couldn’t wait? He just had to have his woman as his wife? Just two months ago, he wanted our marriage and now he is head over heels in love with this woman? I thought she was just someone to screw. The main OW did hear that his “fiancé” is telling people their situation is “complicated” when they asked her when was the wedding and maybe in a couple of years. Ha! Complicated is right, especially when you fail to mention his is still married!! His main OW provided me with some information that I can use in court to help strengthen my case, I hope. It was just some emails and pictures but I keep hearing that courts don’t care about infidelity. 

Thoughts?


----------



## IIJokerII

asia said:


> Here are my questions for TAM:
> 
> 1.	Has anyone else had this happen to him or her?
> *Yes, although the plans are in the initial stage, it sucks, especially when you read the letters about how she'll never cheat on him, or lie, fight for them....(Barf!!!)*
> 2.	I am now going for alimony; does his getting engaged interfere with that?
> [*B]No, in fact depending on your divorce decree only changes IF you get married, and that depends on whether it is agreed *upon or not in the finalized Divorce decree.[/B]
> 
> 3.	Can I keep my daughter away from her at least until the divorce is final or before his remarriage?
> *No, Unless you can prove she is a hazard or danger no much you can do, of course if no Custody agreement is in effect the parent who has the child present no matter where is considered the custodial parent. You could also deny him visitation until an order is established but this is dangerous and could make you look bad in Court.*
> 4.	What else can I stick him for?
> *Hi share of the marital bills, and be sure to review your Court forms, see if he has taken on any uneeded debt and make sure that any and all credit debt can be segregated from yours.*
> 
> 5.	Can he REALLY be in love with this woman or is it all fantasy since he begged me to keep him when I found out?
> *Of course he is in love, with an idea, and the idea is leaving a wake behind him of pain and destruction, keep away, fix you and move on.*
> 
> 6.	Why is he still lying about cheating on main OW when he admitted it to me?
> * It is a way t detach from the gravity of truth to make himself feel better while also being a feeble attempt to keep you hooked to the idea of reconciliation, resist, see answer #5*
> 
> 7.	Why is he still speaking to her after she has exposed him, ruined our marriage (I know he did but she told) and wants her to know he will avenge her if he finds out his “fiancé” did in fact harass her years ago?
> *Beyoncé has a song called "Crazy in love", let it go.*
> 
> 8.	Why would his “fiancé” even allow him to talk to the main OW even if he did want to tell her they were engaged? Why do they give this woman so much power?
> *Poor self esteem, boundaries, and probably a good fit for your Narcissistic STBXH who must be feeling like he is in a cake factory right now.*
> 
> 9.	How can I ask his family to help me keep him from marrying her? I keep thinking he is going to take all of the lessons from our failed marriage and be a good husband to her.
> * Better Question is, why do you want to stop them? Let them be together and in time his irrational actions will cause him to more than likely be a Divorcee twice, with even less to offer the next woman, no revenge quite like watching the opponent self destruct.*
> 10.	Should I contact the “fiancé” and let her know she can’t be around my daughter?
> *No, Although so your research on her if you can, depending on your daughter's age let her know the situation and leave a documented paper trail about your concern for the Ow to your ex, Texts, E0mail, FB what ever it is, leave a trail. Any attempt at contacting the OW and engaging her will make YOU seem like the loon in other peoples eyes, again, do what you can, but let it go.*
> 
> I am extra hurt on learning of his engagement. But I am even madder that he has such a lack of respect for me. He couldn’t wait? He just had to have his woman as his wife? Just two months ago, he wanted our marriage and now he is head over heels in love with this woman? I thought she was just someone to screw. The main OW did hear that his “fiancé” is telling people their situation is “complicated” when they asked her when was the wedding and maybe in a couple of years. Ha! Complicated is right, especially when you fail to mention his is still married!! His main OW provided me with some information that I can use in court to help strengthen my case, I hope. It was just some emails and pictures but I keep hearing that courts don’t care about infidelity.
> 
> Thoughts?


The courts do not necessarily care per se with the no fault divorce process, but with a good lawyer you can prove extreme emotional stress, which is accepted in a work place as being a punishable offense then it can apply to a marriage dissolution. 

As for the rest, the Iceberg of infidelity struck, let the ship sink and enjoy the show. He is probably so in love with his new prospect that you can take advantage of it by getting a more favorable settlement in the decree.


----------



## PBear

Your STBX is broken. Trying to apply reasons to his actions is futile, and will likely just bring more pain. Talk to a local lawyer about what you'd like as an end result, and go from there. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

the smartest thing you can do is hire the best lawyer you can afford and let HIM ruin your H for you.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

turnera said:


> the smartest thing you can do is hire the best lawyer you can afford and let HIM ruin your H for you.


AND let the STBX foot the entire bill for it all. He covers ALL attorney's fees, court fees...EVERYTHING. 

I know its hard, but LET IT GO. Detach into your own world. I know first hand that some people are a special kind of crazy that the rest of us will never, ever be able to comprehend.


----------



## asia

IIJokerII said:


> 5.	Can he REALLY be in love with this woman or is it all fantasy since he begged me to keep him when I found out?
> Of course he is in love, with an idea, and the idea is leaving a wake behind him of pain and destruction, keep away, fix you and move on.
> 
> 6.	Why is he still lying about cheating on main OW when he admitted it to me?
> It is a way t detach from the gravity of truth to make himself feel better while also being a feeble attempt to keep you hooked to the idea of reconciliation, resist, see answer #5


Thanks for your thoughts. I don't understand your thoughts on number 6. He is lying to the main OW about not cheating on her. But he did admit to cheating on her to me. He is not interested in her so why would he keep lying?

I am unfamiliar with your story. Can you PM the link so I can read up on it. 

Yeah it's really hard knowing he proposed to another woman. I cuts deep. I wonder if I told him I want him back would he drop her. I don't but don't want him to be happy ever!


----------



## asia

3Xnocharm said:


> AND let the STBX foot the entire bill for it all. He covers ALL attorney's fees, court fees...EVERYTHING.
> 
> I know its hard, but LET IT GO. Detach into your own world. I know first hand that some people are a special kind of crazy that the rest of us will never, ever be able to comprehend.



Thanks 3XCharm. But I have been letting it go. This is all pretty new information and I'm sorry but hearing your husband is already engaged is difficult to just "let go".


----------



## vi_bride04

Why would you disrespect yourself by asking him back? Let him go, it's obvious he is a serial cheater.


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## asia

vi_bride04 said:


> Why would you disrespect yourself by asking him back? Let him go, it's obvious he is a serial cheater.


Oh no, I have no intentions of taking him back at all. I just don't want him to get married or be happy. He needs to suffer like I am.


----------



## Openminded

My now ex-husband was engaged before I filed (although I had told him I was divorcing him) but not to the other woman -- it was to someone new he met on line. 

I don't know how much cheaters suffer (or if they really do) but, whatever it is, it isn't nearly enough. I do know my ex-husband is now remorseful for blowing up a 45 year marriage but it no longer matters in the least to me. His new marriage seems happy so far but either way I don't care. 

The best revenge is waking up happy every morning because he's no longer my problem.


----------



## clipclop2

I think he still thinks highly of OW1 and may even think of her as a backup. 

It must be heady for him to have 3 women who want(ed) him at the same time. 

The fun will be when OW2 realizes SHE got a pig in a poke. When she realizes she didn't WIN anything of value he will probably hit up OW1 again.

all 4 of you know that he's a liar as well as all of his colleagues. if he doesn't think you just made the biggest fool of himself on the planet he is very wrong.


----------



## Remains

The best thing you can do is stop trying to work him out. You know he is a cheater, you know he cares little for others, you know he avoids difficulties in his life and rather than fix them he finds the easiest way out, creating more chaos for those around him that are left picking up the pieces.

You clearly haven't read the Lundy Bancroft book 'why does he do that: inside the minds of angry and controlling men'. I posted the link a few pages back. If you want some answers to questions that are trying to work him out, that book will give you plenty.

What is wrong here is that you are still questioning his motives and not moving on. Though it is completely understandable that you are still reeling and raw with this still being so fresh. 

Of course he won't take the lessons learned into his new relationship! He doesn't learn lessons! If he cared enough to, he would never ever ever have treated you in the way he has or have dealt with the whole business in the way he has. This is not an engagement! This is a farce! His sticking plaster! And you know they lose their stick after a while! Normal people don't finish one relationship, never mind a marriage, and end up engaged within a couple of months. Normal people don't begin any relationship and end up engaged after a couple of months. This is just fantasy from a man who does not live in reality. And you think he and his fiance will be happy??? It won't happen. She sounds like a doormat (to have stood there while he said all those things) with no self esteem or self respect or self anything who was ripe picking for him. 

Stop trying to find out the why. Be happy you are rid of this childish, malicious, scheming man who lacks any empathy or thought for anyone but himself. 

Read the book!


----------



## kristin2349

asia said:


> Oh no, I have no intentions of taking him back at all. I just don't want him to get married or be happy. He needs to suffer like I am.


Asia, come on now do we really need to point out that IF we were going to give you horrid advice to feed this drama, and say "ask him back"...That it just feeds this mess AND what if he turns you down? 

You are still focusing WAY too much on them. I know you are still hurt. You will not stop until you begin to focus on you and your future. 

He is a nightmare, a truly sick individual. You can't figure him out. I am so sorry this happened to you. I'm sorry you hurt. I know when you are hurt and betrayed by someone who was supposed to love you...It seems logical to want to figure out why. But trust me, it is SO pointless.


----------



## Remains

By the way, I am coming from the point of view of a similar scenario, I was engaged to my man in June. We had been together nearly 5 years. We had a rocky start to the engagement and so I had to lay down the ground rules, which he happily agreed to and promptly broke. Engagement raised the bar and the expectations. I couldn't go back with him and allow the disregard to his continued lies (one of my conditions to accept the proposal) because that meant that all normal stuff in the relationship, all reasonable expectations, would go out the window. All my needs, normal basic needs, would be disregarded and ignored whenever he saw fit. So I broke it off.

We drifted back after a month or so, this was the cycle of our whole relationship, on the proviso we needed a serious talk. That never happened because I found the Internet search of him trying to reconnect with his ex. He gave me a stupid story to explain it away. I was under no illusion that it was bullsh*t. That was 5-6 weeks ago. That brought the finality to any possibility of fixing. He had cheated on me with her for a good year and half into the beginning of our relationship. Created much upset and turmoil. Hence, I joined this forum. The last 3 years have been pretty good on the whole though.

He went away on holiday for a couple of weeks 3 weeks ago, sent me long and loving emails every night and morning, arrived back last Friday and came to see me with lovely presents. That Friday evening when I refused to sleep with him and instead asked him what was the deal with searching for his ex, he told me all he had done to search for this ex, the lengths he had gone to. He then told me an even more preposterous story that I can't be bothered to write here, but believe me, it makes one laugh out loud! He had gone to extraordinary measures to get in touch. This woman who I had spent 5 years trying to rid from my life and our life, who I thought he was with me on this, now had his phone number. 

He sent me the texts yesterday of their exchanges and their chat about meeting up! All full of 'if you are at a loose end tonight or tomorrow it would be lovely to see you', her reply 'that would be great but I can't tonight....blah blah' Talk about rubbing it in! All with this preposterous explanation to back it up! He's insane! Up to Friday he was expressing never ending and forever love. Friday night he hits me with the lengths he went to find her. Sunday he sends me their texts to prove his intentions!!!! It doesn't need a genius to know what they are! I was engaged to this man less than 3 months ago. He has my name tattooed on his arm. He has made zero effort to fix our relationship from the cheating back at the beginning. He has made zero effort to fix us following his breaking of basic agreements on marriage. And now this ex he cheated with, he is on the brink of rekindling their relationship from well over 5 years ago! Sunday when he sent me the text exchanges, that was our anniversary! 

What I'm trying to say here is you are not alone in having a crazy twat as an ex who has wasted your years and your love...don't bother trying to work them out. Don't bother trying to second guess their motives. Where does it get you? Just more wasted time spent on them! No! Don't do it! Stop! Concentrate on your daughter, try and push thoughts of him out. He's a fool and an idiot. He knows it. You know it. His fiance probably knows it. But you are out of there. Be grateful for that. Push dark thoughts out and think about doing stuff that keeps your mind occupied and off the subject of him. Exercise is always good for that. Pummel a punch bag at the gym!


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## IIJokerII

asia said:


> Thanks for your thoughts. I don't understand your thoughts on number 6. He is lying to the main OW about not cheating on her. But he did admit to cheating on her to me. He is not interested in her so why would he keep lying?
> 
> I am unfamiliar with your story. Can you PM the link so I can read up on it.
> 
> Yeah it's really hard knowing he proposed to another woman. I cuts deep. I wonder if I told him I want him back would he drop her. I don't but don't want him to be happy ever!


 People with humility can and do admit when they are wrong and have hurt others, him lying is just compartmentalization for himself against these very " Feelings" he does not want to face.

If you are done, then stay done, your emotional aptitude is vulnerable and a dare could turn easily into a want then need if the moment is just right. Let him go, let him self destruct, and watch the fireworks from afar. Don't give him the satisfaction of having another woman vie for his attention, this way when, not if, he hurts the other girls he'll have nobody to blame but himself, as well as them not being able to blame you.


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## dignityhonorpride

Just wanted to jump in and add - he's not going to live happily ever after and he's not applying the "lessons he learned from your failed marriage" - he didn't learn anything. At all. He will cheat on her, and she will probably cheat on him. Don't you worry about that. You, on the other hand, are learning and growing, and will one day find a loyal and faithful and loving man, when you are ready. Hold your head up and keep moving forward, even if it feels like you are moving slowly.

one day at a time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## commonsenseisn't

Asia

You can't see it clearly now, but I promise you that some day you will look back and be very thankful you had enough sense to ditch this guy. 

Work on detaching and figure out what makes you emotionally invested in him so you can cut it out like the cancer it is. 

You can do it. You will do it. You must do it.

Now get to work. 

All the best.


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## asia

clipclop2 said:


> I think he still thinks highly of OW1 and may even think of her as a backup.
> 
> It must be heady for him to have 3 women who want(ed) him at the same time.
> 
> The fun will be when OW2 realizes SHE got a pig in a poke. When she realizes she didn't WIN anything of value he will probably hit up OW1 again.
> 
> all 4 of you know that he's a liar as well as all of his colleagues. if he doesn't think you just made the biggest fool of himself on the planet he is very wrong.


To even think about OW1 at all is mind boggling after she 1) exposed to our church, 2) told me my marriage was the Titanic, and 3) threatened his new OW2. She is crazy and unstable. Who knows what else she is capable of doing?

He is a loser and lost a good wife. I hope this new ***** gives him the clap!


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## asia

Remains said:


> By the way, I am coming from the point of view of a similar scenario, I was engaged to my man in June. We had been together nearly 5 years. We had a rocky start to the engagement and so I had to lay down the ground rules, which he happily agreed to and promptly broke. Engagement raised the bar and the expectations. I couldn't go back with him and allow the disregard to his continued lies (one of my conditions to accept the proposal) because that meant that all normal stuff in the relationship, all reasonable expectations, would go out the window. All my needs, normal basic needs, would be disregarded and ignored whenever he saw fit. So I broke it off.
> 
> We drifted back after a month or so, this was the cycle of our whole relationship, on the proviso we needed a serious talk. That never happened because I found the Internet search of him trying to reconnect with his ex. He gave me a stupid story to explain it away. I was under no illusion that it was bullsh*t. That was 5-6 weeks ago. That brought the finality to any possibility of fixing. He had cheated on me with her for a good year and half into the beginning of our relationship. Created much upset and turmoil. Hence, I joined this forum. The last 3 years have been pretty good on the whole though.
> 
> He went away on holiday for a couple of weeks 3 weeks ago, sent me long and loving emails every night and morning, arrived back last Friday and came to see me with lovely presents. That Friday evening when I refused to sleep with him and instead asked him what was the deal with searching for his ex, he told me all he had done to search for this ex, the lengths he had gone to. He then told me an even more preposterous story that I can't be bothered to write here, but believe me, it makes one laugh out loud! He had gone to extraordinary measures to get in touch. This woman who I had spent 5 years trying to rid from my life and our life, who I thought he was with me on this, now had his phone number.
> 
> He sent me the texts yesterday of their exchanges and their chat about meeting up! All full of 'if you are at a loose end tonight or tomorrow it would be lovely to see you', her reply 'that would be great but I can't tonight....blah blah' Talk about rubbing it in! All with this preposterous explanation to back it up! He's insane! Up to Friday he was expressing never ending and forever love. Friday night he hits me with the lengths he went to find her. Sunday he sends me their texts to prove his intentions!!!! It doesn't need a genius to know what they are! I was engaged to this man less than 3 months ago. He has my name tattooed on his arm. He has made zero effort to fix our relationship from the cheating back at the beginning. He has made zero effort to fix us following his breaking of basic agreements on marriage. And now this ex he cheated with, he is on the brink of rekindling their relationship from well over 5 years ago! Sunday when he sent me the text exchanges, that was our anniversary!
> 
> What I'm trying to say here is you are not alone in having a crazy twat as an ex who has wasted your years and your love...don't bother trying to work them out. Don't bother trying to second guess their motives. Where does it get you? Just more wasted time spent on them! No! Don't do it! Stop! Concentrate on your daughter, try and push thoughts of him out. He's a fool and an idiot. He knows it. You know it. His fiance probably knows it. But you are out of there. Be grateful for that. Push dark thoughts out and think about doing stuff that keeps your mind occupied and off the subject of him. Exercise is always good for that. Pummel a punch bag at the gym!


Oh wow that is terrible. I am sorry this has happened to you Remains. I would feel like a hypocrite to try and give you advice as I have a hard time doing what I need to do versus what I want to do. So just wanted to know I hear you.


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## asia

commonsenseisn't said:


> Asia
> 
> You can't see it clearly now, but I promise you that some day you will look back and be very thankful you had enough sense to ditch this guy.
> 
> Work on detaching and figure out what makes you emotionally invested in him so you can cut it out like the cancer it is.
> 
> You can do it. You will do it. You must do it.
> 
> Now get to work.
> 
> All the best.



I know that is how I am supposed to feel but it seems like I am never going to get there. I know its over, heck I ended it but when you hear from your husband that he is in love and engaged to another woman, it more than stings. Thanks for the encouragement.


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## turnera

Fill your life with amazing adventures and classes and new friends and new clothes. It'll help.


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## asia

turnera said:


> Fill your life with amazing adventures and classes and new friends and new clothes. It'll help.


I'm actually considering moving out of state. I don't want my husband to leave our daughter but for myself, it would be a great new start with new people. I could start my life all over with none of the reminders of this current situation. Well I can't run away but you know, just get on with it.

What did you take up/get into?


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## Q tip

Be nice to strangers. That's where your friends come from.


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## IIJokerII

Honestly, what you need is time, nothing more. Whatever you endeavor to do will end up doing will be interrupted by the trauma you have dealt with, I know this isn't very uplifting per se but it is the truth, so while going out and all is fun you may want to hold off on trying new things to enjoy lest you will find yourself not as enthused as you may be due to the constant thoughts of this experience. 

In time, it will fade like all memories and that spot where you meet up with friends and laugh about it and how fvcked up you STBXH was and how much better off you became afterward is somewhere in the future. One day at a time.


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## Openminded

When I was in the middle of the mess, I didn't feel I would ever be indifferent to my now ex-husband. But I am. I think of him as a distant family member I see occasionally. I like his current wife (who is not his affair partner) and enjoy seeing her at family functions. Had I been told at the time of my divorce I might someday feel that way, I wouldn't have believed it. It didn't seem possible considering what I was going through then. Now? A different, and better, life.


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## turnera

asia said:


> I'm actually considering moving out of state. I don't want my husband to leave our daughter but for myself, it would be a great new start with new people. I could start my life all over with none of the reminders of this current situation. Well I can't run away but you know, just get on with it.
> 
> What did you take up/get into?


I haven't left my H, though I really wish I had the balls to do so. But if I did, I would (1) move to the ocean, (2) live in a 1- or 2-room apartment, (3) get rid of all my stuff, (4) volunteer and spend lots of time there, (5) go on lots of day trips to places I'd never been before, (6) read the dozens of books I've never got around to....too many other things I've always wanted to do.


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## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> I haven't left my H, though I really wish I had the balls to do so. But if I did, I would (1) move to the ocean, (2) live in a 1- or 2-room apartment, (3) get rid of all my stuff, (4) volunteer and spend lots of time there, (5) go on lots of day trips to places I'd never been before, (6) read the dozens of books I've never got around to....too many other things I've always wanted to do.


So whats stopping you? Whats keeping you from leaving?


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## turnera

Fifty-plus years of dysfunction, severe toxic shame, severe inferiority complex, severe conflict avoidance, 35 years of being belittled and thus lack of self woerth, $110,000 of debt...and not a great handle on belief in my rights to be alive.


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## Remains

turnera said:


> Fifty-plus years of dysfunction, severe toxic shame, severe inferiority complex, severe conflict avoidance, 35 years of being belittled and thus lack of self woerth, $110,000 of debt...and not a great handle on belief in my rights to be alive.



Blimey Turnera! Wow! 

How can you give such good advice and post this!!!!!!!
Can I come and save you? Will you move in with me?!!!


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## Catherine602

You are looking at yourself through a funhouse mirror. 

How did God make such a special person?? So intuitive, compassionate, supportive, reliable, comforting, generous and much more - yet this. 



turnera said:


> Fifty-plus years of dysfunction, severe toxic shame, severe inferiority complex, severe conflict avoidance, 35 years of being belittled and thus lack of self woerth, $110,000 of debt...and not a great handle on belief in my rights to be alive.


If this does not give you infinite faith in the capacity of humankind for good then you ain't alive.


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## clipclop2

Hey Tunera, sounds like time for a thread devoted to you where we can help prop you up for a change! You deserve it!!!!


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## turnera

Remains said:


> Blimey Turnera! Wow!
> 
> How can you give such good advice and post this!!!!!!!


Because I ask myself every day why I put up with this, and then I see people here who can leave behind their problems, and I push them to do so. So as not to waste their whole lives like I did. Because I've spent 30 years researching to see where I went wrong and what I should have done, and I tell other people here what that is.


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## turnera

clipclop2 said:


> Hey Tunera, sounds like time for a thread devoted to you where we can help prop you up for a change! You deserve it!!!!


thanks, but no thanks.


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## clipclop2

Hmmm. I get not being ready.

But still darling, the last we can do is atta boy ya on things.


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## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> Fifty-plus years of dysfunction, severe toxic shame, severe inferiority complex, severe conflict avoidance, 35 years of being belittled and thus lack of self woerth, $110,000 of debt...and not a great handle on belief in my rights to be alive.


Ho lee crap!!

35 years!!!! My life has been put into perspective as I am 35.

I agree with Clip Clop, Its time!!!!!!!!


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## turnera

Thanks, guys, but I'm not that special. I've made tons of mistakes, and I don't follow my own advice; it's easier just to stay here in stasis and just survive. And I don't treat my husband that great, and my not standing up for myself has created a DD24 with her own set of anxiety and other problems. I'm really good at learning and figuring out how things SHOULD be done, just not good at upsetting the apple cart.

OP, sorry for the T/J.


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## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> Thanks, guys, but I'm not that special. I've made tons of mistakes, and I don't follow my own advice; it's easier just to stay here in stasis and just survive. And I don't treat my husband that great, and my not standing up for myself has created a DD24 with her own set of anxiety and other problems. I'm really good at learning and figuring out how things SHOULD be done, just not good at upsetting the apple cart.
> 
> OP, sorry for the T/J.


You know something?? You had a hand in saving me.

Some of your posts on my main thread made me reevaluate my marriage, my life and my ability to provide the best environment and atmosphere for my children. After you and many other ones (thanks Gus) {Where you been at anyway} I resisted relentlessly until I had total strangers tell me what a ****ty job I was doing for my children and for my self.

Even you said so yourself, be brave and keep going. It doesn't matter how old you are, or what may keep you around or what the next day will bring. You true identity is here, and from the looks of it, she is a very knowledgeable person, full of compassion and willing to assist others no matter the circumstances. Pull the loose end and unravel the tapestry of the life you have accepted and sew up the one you know you want and deserve.


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## SolidSnake

Well, Asia, I read your entire thread and at least you can rest assured that your stbxh and his affair partner will not have a happy marriage. They haven't got a snowballs chance in hell! It always amazes me that people ignore the fact that if someone will cheat with you they will cheat ON you. This man is a serial cheater too. Just wait. As soon as things get a little too familiar in their marriage he will be out looking for some strange just like he did before. She will never be able to rest easy or be secure, not even for a day. What goes around, comes around.


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