# WS's, how long did it take before you admitted the WHOLE truth, if ever?



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

I ask because almost a year later, my WH STILL INSISTS he just had EAs. Despite the sexual pics, thousands of calls and texts/sexts, several "business" trips out of state, sex dating sites, etc. etc.

I obviously DON'T believe him, so I'm wondering how long before he breaks and finally admits it, because he denies ANYTHING physical happened, as do his EA partners. 

When did the breaking point occur for you, WS's?


----------



## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

I am not a WS but I can tell you from viewing it from afar that you may be in for a long wait. I do not know your story but it will all depend on if there is anything motivating full disclosure. They do things like that because they can. He will hold out on you as long as he can.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

We have a child and while that is my main motivator for staying, I will be gone once I know for sure it was a PA. I already believe it was, but don't have the confirmation. I know people will say "leave anyway", but we have a small child, so it is not that easy to just rip up our family, no matter how damaged it is. We get along fine, mainly keep up appearances, but it is always in the back of my mind.


----------



## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

You moving out or taking drastic action may be what breaks him. When there is little to no reason to hold on to the lie, he may come forth. Even if he, in fact, did not touch them the temptation was there. That alone, is enough, to sever the bond. You stayed faithful when you could have easily not so why could he not?

I know that this is easier said than done. I am considering a divorce due to a sexless marriage. I am wrestling with that one. Wife is 6 months pregnant as well.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Some may never admit. My stbx had affair, moved into his house the day she left mine. They partied all over town as a couple for months. That affair has ended. I have no idea where she is even living. 

Confronted her numerous times about the OM in the beginning. To this day she wont even acknowledge it ever happened or that she even moved in with him to anyone let alone me. That was 8 months ago. 

Some will just stay in denial forever, they just cant admit they made a mistake.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

He admits everything but sexual contact, however... he is also only admitting to what I can prove and what I have found on my own. I do find it curious that EA2 would call him "babe" and when I discovered them, I sent her texts pretending to be him. I (as him) told her that "my wife knows" and her response was "I love you with all I have and want to spend the rest of my life with you... but if you tell me it's over, it's over." 

Then I think, if it was an involved as I think, why did she give him up so easily, because normally, they don't - well, unless the affair naturally fizzled out. This did not. I caught them. Then, when I confronted her as myself, she too denied any physical activity.

Hot damn, I hate liars!


----------



## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Even if you can't prove the physical encounters, it is time to plan an exit strategy. They may not have happened due to lack of opportunity. Just because one person is free does not mean the other is. One does not spout the word, "love", and not have had physical encounters or not planned to have them.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Oh no, opportunity was all over the place. Like I said, I believe he has had PA's. I had him get checked for STD's (clean). I just wonder if there is a breaking point. Perhaps there isn't.


----------



## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

It was when I started the process for D and my wife knew I was dead serious. I also believe God played a large part in changing her.

I will say this. I was in a false R for over a year. I knew things were not right. She kept lying. 

He may never admit to it. My wife resisted, lied, even with solid proof. She promised the XOM that she will stick to their story no matter what. Until the OM/OW's allegiance is broken he will never come clean.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Cheaters are liars by profession. I think it's extremely rare that you will find one who spills the whole truth an nothing but the truth. You have to be a pretty awesome liar to keep an affair going. If you are trying to reconcile, they will lie to minimize their awfulness and protect themselves, and maybe to try and keep you from ending it because if you knew all the nastiness, you would drop them like a steaming turd.

I've come to accept I will never know the extent of the gruesome deeds my stbxw committed. Probably better that way.

Cheaters lie - to you, to their friends, to their family....to themselves. It's what they do, it's who they are.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Don't hold your breath

I'm 15 yrs together, 11 married, two kids, I'm separated 20 mnths very stbxw serial cheat . 

Only three days ago in tears she said "whilst I was with you I never had sex with any of them"

"It was only a kiss , it was only..... blah blah bla "

I had emails, texts confirmation from the wives of the OM (they admitted to their wives there had been sex) - the lot - still she cannot cough it all up. :scratchhead:

It would now be easier for all concerned for her to simply admit it and we all move along 

...........but no

____________

Inside the mind of a cheat is a battlefield of justification and self loathing and even if it's to their own benefit they cannot admit even to themselves the facts of their treacheries

I can never realy understand it - I'm a bit simplistic - you get caught - hands in the till - OWN IT. 

Admit there's bad in you and try to correct it.

I can only think it's like a robot looking at the self destruct button!

Can he do it!?!?


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Don't hold your breath
> 
> I'm 15 yrs together, 11 married, two kids, I'm separated 20 mnths very stbxw serial cheat .
> 
> ...


Sorry to threadjack but just to ask headspin.

I thought she was done with you?

Why is she in tears?

Is it the guilt or is she hoping for some kind of reconciliation now?


And to address the original question by the OP, I think if your spouse is genuinely remorseful and really devastated about the hurt they have caused you there is more chance that you will get most of the truth.

And lets face it, how much truth do you really need.

If you're a guy you don't really need to know that his tackle was 2 inches bigger than yours and he was the best shag ever and made her cum 20 times and afterwards they laughed about you.
Yes it's good to know details but not to the extent that it destroys you.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> I ask because almost a year later, my WH STILL INSISTS he just had EAs. Despite the sexual pics, thousands of calls and texts/sexts, several "business" trips out of state, sex dating sites, etc. etc.
> 
> I obviously DON'T believe him, so I'm wondering how long before he breaks and finally admits it, because he denies ANYTHING physical happened, as do his EA partners.
> 
> When did the breaking point occur for you, WS's?


He doesn't realize that his lies are killing any chance to save the marriage. He thinks by lying, he's protecting you and protecting himself from divorce, when in fact he's pushing you both towards it. The only chance of your marriage being saved is if he tells you the truth. You know he's full of crap, by continuing to tell you more lies he's insulting your intelligence to go along with the continued deception. As long as he can get away with it, he'll continue to cheat. He has no idea what he's doing, he's cheating, so he's in what they call a fog (filling his head with BS to justify being such a jerk). Telling himself stuff like 'since she doesn't know about the sex, she'll be okay', 'my mistresses make me happy so that makes me a better husband and father'... etc... Sometimes the only way to save your marriage is to stop taking bull.

I think the breaking point for my WS was when I kicked her out, and purchased a new bed, rearranged the bedroom, put all her stuff in trash bags and called her and told her to come get it, that I changed the locks on the doors but I'll make sure one of the kids are home to let her in. I showed her I'd be fine without her, and that she was about to lose the best thing that ever happened to her. I refused to let her abuse me anymore. She can't have her cake and eat it too.. That's when she started to come around.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

WyshIknew said:


> Sorry to threadjack but just to ask headspin.
> 
> I thought she was done with you?
> 
> ...


You need enough truth to know they are no longer keeping out important information. You don't want to know sex details, you do want to know that they aren't going to call a night in a motel 'just talked' or something along those lines. It's insulting and shows that you're just getting more bull, not honesty. Honesty builds intimacy, lies build frustration, anger, resentment, hurt etc...


----------



## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

As long as he knows you won't leave him, he'll do nothing to keep you. Can you live like this, knowing but not knowing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Sorry to threadjack but just to ask headspin.
> 
> I thought she was done with you?
> 
> ...


Every time we talk about anything she's in floods of tears these days. Two days ago I got "How did we come to this" ?

I think it's the guilt and it's me who's done with her. Recon is not an option. With a serial cheat it was an option before obviously but now my head is very firmly out of my arse so ...... 

Again cheats not being in a place where they so thought they would be. 

He the last one, never left his wife, she is not living in 'love bliss' cooking cakes when he returns home from having conquered the world with half a million in his back pocket. She's living in rented small accommodation. She's tight for money, already more in debt than when with me and the money she gets from the settlement will probably be too short and will not get her into a better place in terms of housing, the children tolerate her and love her in spite of what she's done but as time goes on and they understand more I would not want to be where she will be when the full explanations need to be made! 

She fears me being bitter and hate filled forever, she definitely thought I'd be like this for a few months and then we'd all sink into a more comfortable acceptance of her destruction but due to her lack of remorse about any of it I'll never change. I think that's sinking in now.

She's realized this and I've seen signs recently that she want's to talk about it honestly and she is wanting to go to counseling about it for us both so that I can maybe start treating her with respect and we can at least deal with each other more amicably. I'm willing

It sounds more positive but tbh this is a woman who can change her whole thought process overnight so...

I'm skeptical


----------



## dontbeused (Nov 15, 2013)

I would like to think that if a couple is to attempt to R, the BS would demand the truth, and if TT is realized it must be the deal breaker.
Personally cheating is the ultimate betrayal and is a deal breaker for me, I think if you have proven to allow someone else in your pants, that is a character trait that is not to be trusted ever again.
Why a BS would be such a doormat is the question I would want to know the answers to. To expect the truth from a BS is like asking a criminal if they did the crime. Almost all plead not guilty, until the proof is overwhelmingly obvious. WS are criminals IMO.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Don't see why he would tell you anything. You're still there and he can only lose by admitting anything. If you kick him out and file for divorce you can tell him that while you don't promise anything any chance you have lies in him coming clean. I don't know why you're so bent on getting him to admit it though, you know he's lying so why lower yourself to play these games with him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

honcho said:


> Some may never admit. My stbx had affair, moved into his house the day she left mine. They partied all over town as a couple for months. That affair has ended. I have no idea where she is even living.
> 
> Confronted her numerous times about the OM in the beginning. To this day she wont even acknowledge it ever happened or that she even moved in with him to anyone let alone me. That was 8 months ago.
> 
> Some will just stay in denial forever, they just cant admit they made a mistake.


*And largely until she comes to know the love of God, she will continue to remain in denial and be nothing more than a shell of her real self.

She erroneously thinks that she has already been through the valley of despair, while in reality, she'll have to go a little lower into it in order to come clean with you as well as with her own searing conscience.

The sad thing is that she may well end up letting self-denial as well as her self-serving ways deny her any future happiness!*


----------



## artlady (Jul 17, 2011)

It took almost as long as the point you're at now-- eleven months. It happened because I (I'm the BS) finally found more proof. Something had been off all year long, and I KNEW there was more to it than he was telling me. 

It's like others here have said-- he finally admitted that it was a full-blown PA (not just some kissing and other stuff) when I said I was leaving and didn't want him anymore if he didn't tell me the truth-- I mean, I had what I thought was proof, and he couldn't be afraid of losing me over me feeling like a crazy woman.

Some WSs won't admit the full truth until they're in real danger of losing their spouse.


----------



## Laurel (Oct 14, 2013)

I had suspicions a year prior to d-day but no proof. When I did a "soft confront" at that time, he denied everything and I chose to believe him (because I really couldn't or didn't want to believe he would ever cheat on me). Three months ago I stumbled upon irrefutable evidence, kept it to myself for several days while I gathered more and then one day when he was at work, I packed up my stuff and left him a note saying I knew what he was doing and wanted a divorce. I dead serious, and he knew it.

So he called and begged me to meet him so he could tell me the truth. And to my shock, he told me everything (including things I would never have known). He answered every single question I had. And I knew he was telling the truth because he was telling me stuff that made him look very bad and was very uncomfortable to talk about. Very painful details. He then offered me all his passwords, etc. Complete transparency.

Because of his unexpected reaction I decided to R. Three months later he will still patiently answer any questions that I come up with etc.

The point is that you have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it. He didn't tell me the truth earlier because he didn't want to lose me. He knew I would leave and wanted to prevent that (and continue having his cake and eating it too). But once I was already gone, the only thing he had left was to tell me the truth.

You cannot successfully R unless he is willing to come clean. And it often takes a drastic measure by the BS to bring that about.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> I ask because almost a year later, my WH STILL INSISTS he just had EAs. Despite the sexual pics, thousands of calls and texts/sexts, several "business" trips out of state, sex dating sites, etc. etc.
> 
> I obviously DON'T believe him, so I'm wondering how long before he breaks and finally admits it, because he denies ANYTHING physical happened, as do his EA partners.
> 
> When did the breaking point occur for you, WS's?


I hear your frustration ScorchedEarth and it will be like that for a looooooong time. Often things come out YEARS later. 

My WH had an 'EA' 4 years ago. Using TAM tactics I got told only a few weeks ago that 'they kissed'. I came SO close to leaving him for the EA. Had I known it was PA I would have left him without a doubt. He lied very convincingly for 4 years and so I didn't make an INFORMED decision because he wouldn't tell me the TRUTH. WS control us like puppets with their lies. Basically we are at their mercy which is the situation you are in. 

My WS now says after 4 years of denial that they kissed twice, firstly at the bar they were at and then again when they said goodnight because he drove her home. Like high school kids? :lol: Even when cheaters tell the 'truth' it never is and they will say ANYTHING to deny having sex. I was away at the time. Of course they had sex. What does he think I am. . . stupid???? Or perhaps he will tell me he slept with her in another 4 years?

I now think that the intention is enough regardless if a WS has sex or not. Once they start chasing someone else they have crossed the line. No man ever chased me when I was single who didn't want to sleep with me. It's very simple really. 

Sounds as if your WS was hell bent on chasing the ladies with 'business trips' and sex sites thrown in. So what were his intentions? Regardless of whether it went PA a BS must decide if they can live with the fact that their WS made the conscious decision to chase someone else. It hurts and is never forgotten because it's a taint on the marriage. 

It is possible it didn't go PA. But you may never find out. I wouldn't pay any attention to what OW says. She's just a cheater too. 

It is a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle. He has 1000 pieces. You have 200, 400, 600, 800? You may never find those missing ones. Can you live with that?


----------



## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

You need to demand a poly or it's over. 

As long as he gets the marriage without having to come clean, he won't come clean.


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

My WS lied right up until the night before his scheduled polygraph, after nearly 3 years of False R. He admitted to 2 ONS's and another 2 women he'd "talked to" or "flirted with" over the years. That would be in addition to the LT EA I'd busted him in 3 years prior, and the ONS and the sexting affair he'd admitted to 5 months prior. He seemed genuinely relieved to have finally come totally clean. Swore there was nothing more, and even offered to go ahead with the poly the next day. I told him I wanted a divorce instead. 

And then I found out later that he had _still_ been lying even then. Monitoring his texts/emails for the 4 weeks between confession night and when I filed for a formal separation, revealed that there were at least another handful of affairs, of various types, that he hadn't admitted to. 

I now have absolutely no doubt that I will never know everything. I figure I know maybe half of it, which was way more than plenty for me. He was simply never, ever, ever, going to admit to everything. Just wasn't gonna happen. But we're divorced, so I try not to let it eat at me.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

ScorchedEarth said:


> We have a child and while that is my main motivator for staying, *I will be gone once I know for sure it was a PA*. I already believe it was, but don't have the confirmation. I know people will say "leave anyway", but we have a small child, so it is not that easy to just rip up our family, no matter how damaged it is. We get along fine, mainly keep up appearances, but it is always in the back of my mind.


As a WS, I lied and lied until I *knew* I had lost everything. If I felt there was still something for me to protect, I couldn't tell the truth because I was trying to hold on to that. A friend told me to just tell Matt the truth, and I said I couldn't, that it would just be something I had to bear for the rest of my life.

It wasn't until Matt kicked me out and told me we had an appointment with the divorce attorney that I was "free" enough to just confess. There was nothing left, no hope, so what could the truth cost me at that point?

If your above statement is true, then he most likely feels he can never tell the truth because he knows it will be over, you're simply waiting for confirmation. So, in my opinion, if you really want the truth from him, you either need to help create an environment where he feels 'safe' telling you, or just flat out tell him that you are getting a divorce, and he may then tell you because there's nothing left to protect.

It's a terrible thing that giving the truth will often be what can allow people to begin to consider rebuilding a relationship, but to the WS, they are certain the truth will be the last nail in the coffin as it were, instead of the lies doing that. It's dumb, but that's often the perception. Also for me, I was in such a habit of lying, that even when Matt asked me a yes or no question that I KNEW he knew the answer to, my mouth lied before my brain could even stop it from happening. It was ridiculous, and further reinforced to me that all my "instincts" at this point were wrong. I had to fight what I felt and do the opposite. For someone who has always operated mostly intuitively throughout life, that was incredibly disconcerting and difficult to process. I spent a lot of time after telling the truth feeling scared of myself and unable to trust my decision making processes. A year later, I am finally starting to feel a little more comfortable in my skin, like I've been able to recalibrate my sensors a bit, but I will likely never act or immediately trust in my first instinct again.

I'm sure it is a bitter pill to think about creating an environment where your WS feels "safe" to be honest. After all, we callously stripped our spouses of their sense of safety. But as long as there is a belief that with honesty will come punishment, it's almost impossible to simply accept that and be truthful. 

IMO, if a PA is an absolute deal breaker in your mind, regardless of your children, then just file for divorce now. Assume the worst, since he may not be truthful, and if you can't live with those assumptions, act accordingly. 

I'm sorry you are in this position, and I hope you find some peace.


----------



## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> I ask because almost a year later, my WH STILL INSISTS he just had EAs. Despite the sexual pics, thousands of calls and texts/sexts, several "business" trips out of state, sex dating sites, etc. etc.
> 
> I obviously DON'T believe him, so I'm wondering how long before he breaks and finally admits it, because he denies ANYTHING physical happened, as do his EA partners.
> 
> When did the breaking point occur for you, WS's?


I am a BS and we are trying to R. D day was 7 months ago. My WH still insist that I know it all. Everything that he has told me makes no sense at all. Our MC told us she does not need to see us together anymore, because we are at a stand off. He says I know it all and I know he is lying. So the ball is in my court now and I have to decide whether or not I can live with half the truth. 
I still go to the MC by myself. And it is very hard for me to make a decision due to the fact that we just had our 25 th anniversary and also have 3 children together. Also for the last 15 years, I have been a stay at home mom.
I am using a VAR to try to see if he is still lying about things. I guess I need that one solid piece of evidence to move forward. Do you think your WH is still flirting with other women?


----------



## timedoesnothealall (Sep 15, 2013)

This is a very profound analysis and parallels my experience 100%.

The adamant protection of the AP is a huge red flag. If WS issues ultimatums that you not disclose, that you not contact OP's spouse, etc then you've pretty much elicited the full confession that it, indeed, was a PA.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> WS's, how long did it take before you admitted the WHOLE truth, if ever?


How would you ever know?


----------



## timedoesnothealall (Sep 15, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> How would you ever know?



Short of a polygraph, you probably wouldn't. Sometimes (as in my case) a toxic friend of WS will rat them out to you, post-DDay. 

I'm of the mind that knowing "ALL" isn't healthy for most BS's, if R is under consideration. If D is the goal, full disclosure would serve as a powerful catalyst to file and not look back.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> Oh no, opportunity was all over the place. Like I said, I believe he has had PA's. I had him get checked for STD's (clean). I just wonder if there is a breaking point. Perhaps there isn't.


I think it depends on the person. I've seen people (I consider them sociopaths usually) who will lie even when presented with real evidence. 

Others will fold with a soft confront. That's why I think the gut is still your most important tool. Because once someone lies, how do you let yourself believe that they are EVER telling the truth.

If they'll lie about little stuff, then big stuff then get caught with some but not all...Most people will try to minimize their actions. JMO 

It's a horrible thing to deal with. How they want trust back. It's not as easy to give it back once it was tossed aside.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> As a WS, I lied and lied until I *knew* I had lost everything. If I felt there was still something for me to protect, I couldn't tell the truth because I was trying to hold on to that. A friend told me to just tell Matt the truth, and I said I couldn't, that it would just be something I had to bear for the rest of my life.
> 
> It wasn't until Matt kicked me out and told me we had an appointment with the divorce attorney that I was "free" enough to just confess. There was nothing left, no hope, so what could the truth cost me at that point?
> 
> ...


Mrs M, this absolutely goes right to the heart of the question. This kind of truth-telling involves leaps of faith on both parts: The WS in believing that the truth does not mean D, and the BS in believing that the safe environment is not simply safe for more lying. 

Assume the worst and act accordingly--excellent advice. This is what I've done, and I have found that in my case at least I can live with the worst, whether it's admitted or not.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Philat said:


> Mrs M, this absolutely goes right to the heart of the question. This kind of truth-telling involves leaps of faith on both parts: The WS in believing that the truth does not mean D, and the BS in believing that the safe environment is not simply safe for more lying.
> 
> Assume the worst and act accordingly--excellent advice. This is what I've done, and I have found that in my case at least I can live with the worst, whether it's admitted or not.


*The worst act of all is the one of willful, overt betrayal ~ all of the other related acts are simply accoutrements!*


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *The worst act of all is the one of overt betrayal ~ all other related acts are simply accoutrements!*


It is, but if you let them downplay the level of the betrayal.. the amount of time, things they did, things they shared.. I'm not sure they can understand exactly what they've done. If they can say 'it was just a kiss' and not 'it was full on xxx', then over time, eventually they'll convince themselves it was just a kiss.. it wasn't all that bad. How do you learn anything like that. They think they spared you pain. It was just as planned, nobody was really all that hurt. Business as usual.

I think the hardest part for my wife, of all the TT.. was a couple days in when she backed herself into a corner and had to tell me how he knew where we lived. I could see that as she told me yes, she did bring him to our house, it was pretty painful for her to admit to me. When she had to tell me she used her sisters house on Sundays for about a year, when she was 'feeding the cats'.. She wanted to leave again, like the first time.. had a hard time admitting to it. I got it all that day, showers, gifts, days off from work... painful, but you know what. I no longer ask her questions, and it's because now I know the extent. It wasn't a kiss.. it wasn't an EA.. it was a full blown LTA.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

ScorchedEarth said:


> Oh no, opportunity was all over the place. Like I said, I believe he has had PA's. I had him get checked for STD's (clean). I just wonder if there is a breaking point. Perhaps there isn't.


To be honest, I don't think there is a "breaking point" for some WS's. I caught my exH on video checking into a hotel the night before and checking out the next morning with another woman, and I had the receipt for the hotel on a "secret" credit card! There's no way to deny that evidence, and yet when I confronted him, he said "How'd you do that?' and I said, "Do what?" and he said "Make it look like I had an affair when I didn't."  He denied it to the very end and kept trying to say I was making it all up and it was in my head. 

On the other hand I've been a WS and my affair was entirely online. When I was in the midst of my affair, I didn't think about my Dear Hubby--or if I did, it was with resentment and anger. It wasn't anything he said or did, but in my gut I felt sick and like I knew it was wrong but I did it like defiantly because I liked the way I felt. But then one day I *saw* him and I don't know how else to describe it. One day I SAW the pain on his face and I just couldn't do that to another human being, even someone I was mad at! I wouldn't call that a breaking point but more like admitting to myself that I just had to stop. 

I can not understand why some people can admit they were wrong and some people can't, but in my experience that seems to be the difference. If he can not and does not admit (even to himself) that what he's doing is wrong, he probably thinks he "deserves it" and it's not him...it's you that's wrong. Thus unless he changes his WHOLE FRAME OF MIND, he doesn't even see it as wrong and has no reason to stop or tell the truth.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Thank you for all the input. I guess I am confused by the fact that he has completely turned his life around after I found out. 

Examples:

DDay - gave me all the passwords. Closed his facebook account.
Let me have complete access to the phone and phone records. Changed his number so she/they couldn't call/text anymore.
Printed up all his credit card statements and gave me the passwords to go through his accounts.
Called his boss and told him that he was going to take the rest of his Federal Family leave (which was about a months worth) immediately. Also requested a transfer to another site. Unfortunately, that didn't go through, so he still was working at the same job with her for about 8 months, so yes, plenty of opportunity there. I know. But there were no more "business" trips. Every night, he was home. Again, I know. Means nothing.
Stopped drinking - I mean cold-turkey. 
Stopped the outrageous spending. 
Stopped spending hours and hours on the computer upstairs.

Basically, did what I said. Moved out of the bedroom, the whole nine. 

I have found no evidence that he has continued his former lifestyle, and believe me, I look closer than ever (and yes, I am aware he could have very well taken it underground, but I am much more sensitive now than ever).

So, that being said, I guess I don't understand why he would do all these things and make such drastic changes. I don't necessarily doubt he is genuine in his remorse and effort to fix the marriage, it's the fact that I just don't believe he is honest about the past. 

Ugh. But you are all right. There is no other way around this but divorce. I really thought I could grit my teeth and go through it for our child, but it's just getting harder and harder.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I confessed the first opportunity I had, the very next day when what I now know was an EA started to go PA.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> Thank you for all the input. I guess I am confused by the fact that he has completely turned his life around after I found out.
> 
> Examples:
> 
> ...


Read Mrs Mathias' post again. If WH were to fess up now would R be possible, in view of all the corrective measures he has taken? If so, go for the D and tell him you cannot live any longer being treated as a fool and he has one more chance (i.e., nothing left to lose). If he adds truth to his story, then you have a decision to make. If he doesn't, then the D is your objective anyway.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> Thank you for all the input. I guess I am confused by the fact that he has completely turned his life around after I found out.
> Examples:
> DDay - gave me all his passwords...
> - access to the phone and phone records.
> ...


ScorchedEarth - I hope I am not being too blunt here but with a husband like what you described above, divorce wouldn't be much different from the way you were living. You had a second child to look after, a 'rebellious teenager'. He was drinking, spending, ignoring you while he spent hours on the computer and the gall to be womanising too. How long was all that going on? And he has now reformed? Are you sure he will keep it up for 10, 20 or 30 years?

Yet with all his changes, he is not giving you the ONE thing you want that you have VERY CLEARLY told him - the truth!!! This is what really angered me with my WS. I used to say to him "READ MY BLOODY LIPS!" Sorry but you can see I am very angry about the recent revelations in my case so do remember *my advice is certainly biased.*

A marriage with secrets is no marriage. I used to think, "There is a woman out there who knows all of it yet I, his wife, don't." He is committing you to a lifelong limbo with a permanent sense of unease. But WS don't see it like that. They think of themselves and are just trying to save themselves from the consequences. 

They control us with their lies. If you find out more in 6 months, a year or even a few years as in my case, how will you feel then? The ONE thing you don't want now is a false R which is what you will have without the truth. 

My WH responded from D-day by being very attentive and doing mega amounts of housework. It means nothing because there were secrets in our marriage for 4 years. I did some heavy duty digging after my recent discovery and found there was another 'EA', maybe even PA. He chased down a girl he had the hots for at university 20 years ago who chose his friend above him at the time. So you see when the truth comes out it can be like an avalanche. I'm not saying it will be like that for you but when you don't know just expect the worst. It's what we BS do anyway - to prepare ourselves. 

My advice is to now serve him with D papers. But you MUST mean it so you need to think long and hard if you have the courage. It requires a great deal of it and if you end up doing D, there will be a year or so when you will wonder whether you should have stayed as you try to build a new life. I walked away from my first husband and I was like that for the first year. But it got better and better and then the sun came out and I suddenly felt free :woohoo:. 

After he gets his big shock tell him that you are serving him the papers because you don't think he is telling you the truth and you needed ALL of it, every last piece. 

Read Mrs Matthias' post again. She nailed it and gave a perfect insight into the mind of a WS and outlined your options. 

I am really sorry as unfortunately I well know the pain you are in.


----------



## Lilly_daddy (Jul 4, 2009)

I am currently talking with MW and she has not admitted an EA with her ex-bf. Tell me what getting caught red handed on your cell phone sexting an ex boyfriend sexual comments is considered and I will sell you some swamp land in Florida or some screen doors for your submarine. She told me if it was an affair she would have admitted it. I told her that even if she didn't believe it was an EA doesn't for one minute mean it wasn't. She was emotionally invested in the back and forth and what he texted her made her feel good she told me. They also have extensive sexual history and she was with him four months before we met. I don't know how long it will take but she's not going to get any leniency from me until she admits that she committed this offense.


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Scorched Earth, chances are you will never get the truth and even if you did you wouldn't accept it. You have twisted yourself up looking for the truth or to find that smoking gun because you need closure. If you were like me, you felt that you couldn't make decisions until you are certain of what happened. You feel it in your gut. You just know, but you can't prove it and unfortunately you likely never will. 

My H did this to me and I have spent the past year looking for the proof. Why was I looking for it? Because without it we are caught in purgatory, between moving forward in our marriage or moving on.

What you need to do is this... Forget the infidelity. I know that's difficult. But unless he confesses you'll never answer that question. So your quickest route to sanity is to forget the infidelity. 

Now, place on the table all of the facts you know. Weed through that factual data and determine if you can overcome it. If you feel you can overcome the facts you may be able to move forward. In my case I realized I could not overcome the facts, so in reality the infidelity was a moot point.

My H contacted escorts and paid for adult dating sites. I realized that alone is enough for me to make a decision.

I know where you are right now. I was there for nearly a year and I have lost so much of my sanity I wish I would have focused on the facts last January.

Good luck to you and stay strong.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Well, I told him that I "know" (feel) he is still lying to me and that this would be our last Christmas together, unless he comes clean with everything. At this point I just want to know. I really don't care if they were PAs or not. Yeah, it will hurt more, but every day my feelings just erode. More disappointment than hurt. I look at him now and am just filled with 10 years of regret. 
And disappointment in me that our child will be the one who will suffer the most. 

Anyway. Let's see what the new year brings!


----------



## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Glad you told him, but what was his reaction?

Have you told him that you used to love him more and have him in high esteem? But the lies and lack of honesty is killing any love for him that you used to have. That he cheated and the continued lying are decisions that he is actively making to kill any chance for your love to survive.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Nothing really. I really believe he will stick to his story. Then again, we are still a few weeks out from the new year, so who knows by then. 

I asked about a lie detector test and at first he was ok with it, but then asked if the test came out in his favor, would I believe it or would I think he studied how to beat it (and yes, I would think the latter). So his argument is that he is in a no-win situation. A few days later I told him I found a place and he asked where. I told him that I'd rather keep the details to myself until I made the appointment and his response was "I didn't say I'd do it". So...

It will be a year since DDay on Saturday. I am so on edge. I stopped drinking coffee because my anxiety attacks are flaring up and I'm trying to contain my blood pressure. 

We don't talk much, but he will every now-and-then hug me and touch my face and just give me this sad look without saying anything. I don't ask questions anymore because his response is "We've already talked about this", and it just makes me mad.

The other day I was going through my collection of expensive designer clothing and accessories and he asked what I was doing. i told him I was getting ready to sell stuff on ebay or at the consignment store because I need money for my attorney (I'm a SAHM and I only have about $1000 in my personal savings account. Unlike my husband, I shared everything I had with the household - stupid, stupid!). His response was "Well, I don't understand why you are doing this now. You're not filing until January". So, for him to say that, I am going to assume that he is sticking to his story about how he went "swimming" but never got "wet". And yes, there is the one-in-a-trillion chance that for all the years of lies, porn, sex dating sites, strip clubs, bars, sexting EAs, thousands of texts/calls to women at all hours of the day and night, and myriad females in his contact list, that he may have a been an "all talk, no action" guy. 

I just don't believe it.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

He doesnt believe you will follow thru with filing in January. Its still just a cat and mouse game to him currently. You are trying to call his bluff and he is calling yours. Till you decide to file and make it real the game will just continue.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

honcho said:


> He doesnt believe you will follow thru with filing in January. Its still just a cat and mouse game to him currently. You are trying to call his bluff and he is calling yours. Till you decide to file and make it real the game will just continue.


Yup. Pretty much. But the anger now is parsed with huge doses of indifference and disgust, which makes filing a lot easier.


----------



## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

honcho said:


> He doesnt believe you will follow thru with filing in January. Its still just a cat and mouse game to him currently. You are trying to call his bluff and he is calling yours. Till you decide to file and make it real the game will just continue.


I don't believe it either.

The OP hasn't got what it takes to follow through at this point and the WH knows it.

I've been in those shoes. Still am.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Ohhhh, I've got my paperwork in order. Used an online service. He has December 31st to come completely clean. I've had to back off on the "If it went PA, I'm gone" stance. It's a lose-lose for him, so it has now become "Admit or I file". I'll post an update January 2nd.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> Ohhhh, I've got my paperwork in order. Used an online service. He has December 31st to come completely clean. I've had to back off on the "If it went PA, I'm gone" stance. It's a lose-lose for him, so it has now become "Admit or I file". I'll post an update January 2nd.


I think you've hit on a fundamental truth. If the WS knows that admitting to a PA (or even an EA) means divorce, why should they admit anything? 

So the key is with the BS. If the BS is open to an R, then the WS has to know that, but also know that the road to an R goes through coming clean, timelines and all.

If the BS isn't sure about an R, then the situation is much worse because, once again, the WS has essentially no reason to tell the full story.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Well, it's January 1st, and he's still sticking to his story. 

I am sick to my stomach. I don't want divorce, but trying to R with someone I feel is lying is even less desirable.

I guess it's time to get my ducks in a row. If I back down, I will be confirming that I am a chump and someone he can just walk all over, and I'll be in the exact same position before I know it.

*breathe*

New year, new me, right?


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

ScorchedEarth said:


> Well, it's January 1st, and he's still sticking to his story.
> 
> I am sick to my stomach. I don't want divorce, but trying to R with someone I feel is lying is even less desirable.
> 
> ...


Right!


----------



## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

....Hmmm? How long for the WS to come clean?


....well ...as a BS, and 18 yrs gone by from my wife's ONS ...as much as my wife says shes told the truth ...to me the truth has never been given.


....no name of OM

....no place where it took place.

....no truth if condom was used.

....no 'details' about encounter

....no truth if one of my children is really mine.

....no real "fall on your knees begging, pleading crying or believable remorse". 

....no acceptance from her that her actions will affect me the rest of my life, and have made me feel like less of a man.


....after all the story's I've read here, I now know that I made HUGE mistake in immediately trying to reconcile ....with a stupid mindset that "I was to blame" and "I needed to change". Add to everything that I beat myself up for that ...and feel profound shame for being a BS.

....I only hope that I can gather the strength to "save my soul" and eventually vanquish this pain ...because I truly believe that it's slowly killing me.

....and ...being that I was fed one story 18 yrs ago ...and this past year ...details of said story were found to be false ...if a "swear on a stack of Bibles" truth was presented to me from her ...I doubt I'd accept it as being valid. And ...what I find morbidly funny, and sickeningly disturbing ...is that I'd actually feel guilt for not believing her, and would have a sense of almost considering myself an outcast for harboring these thoughts and feelings.


----------



## workindad (May 7, 2011)

OP, you have a plan. Stick to it and focus on rebuilding your life.

Good luck
WD


----------



## workindad (May 7, 2011)

HS- only you can decide when enough lies are enough.

Site her down and tell her to come clean or GTFO.

It is past time she own up.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> We have a child and while that is my main motivator for staying, I will be gone once I know for sure it was a PA. I already believe it was, but don't have the confirmation. I know people will say "leave anyway", but we have a small child, so it is not that easy to just rip up our family, no matter how damaged it is. We get along fine, mainly keep up appearances, but it is always in the back of my mind.


You have your answer why he won't tell you in your first sentence, because you will leave if he tells you he has had a PA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

^^ Yes, and since then, I have changed my tactic and decided that with full confession, I will agree to a wholehearted effort at R. Today was the deadline. He hasn't even spoken about it. I asked if we could agree to a uncontested divorce with a 50/50 split and he said "fine". 

So either he * a)* doesn't believe I will go through with it (and I have been a chicken about it before)

OR

*b)* Didn't go PA (highly doubtful)

OR 

*c)* Will break down at the attorneys office.

I was supposed to go and get the forms I ordered online checked out by an attorney tomorrow but of course, as fate would have it, my SIL texted and needs to help her with some baby stuff (she's due late this month and she is having some health issues with her pergnancy - and yes, I feel like such an a-hole filing for divorce so close to her having a baby. On one hand, a new baby might be the distraction we all need, on the other, I don't want there to be stress in the family at a time we should all be happy and celebratory. I do know the more I put this off, the more I will lose my resolve).

Anyway. I have done all I can do, other than roll over and R (which will just be a setup for another affair, they almost always are). He had a deadline, it's passed. I have no closure.

Nothing left but to pray and push forward.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

If he's agreeing to an uncontested divorce, take him to the attorney's office with you tomorrow. Maybe the reality of it will be the shock he needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Maybe, but I really think he is going to stick to his story. As with everything, there is a miniscule chance he is telling the truth, but HIGHLY doubtful.

I really think this is it.


----------



## cbnero (Dec 6, 2013)

My vote is to go no contact, file the papers tomorrow, and have him served. If there is anything there in his heart and mind he will come back. But that is when you must be extra vigalent! Don't believe what he says, believe what he does. My own POV is that you didn't get the truth before so he already proves he doesnt care. His inital response might be remorse but that is BS. My stbx was only remorseful for a brief time then the false R ramped up to serious abuse which I allowed because I wanted to see it for what I wanted. I was 100% in the betrayed spouse fog!

I know this is difficult but you need to not day a word to him about it, file immediately, and have him served. Then get yourself in IC immediately. You need to pull yourself back into reality and end any inter/codepency on him and the marriage before you can even trust your own decisions. 

Stay with us on TAM. Check out some other posts and see what Conrad, Regroup, Honorbound, and others have to say.

But now is time for you to focus on yourself. This man is NOT your friend. He doesnt love you, care about you, or respect you. Why show him its ok to treat you that way? You are a person of value. Get strong, we will help. It hurts but you will be glad you do it. 180 his azz!

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Oh, I am in no fog. I sleep in another room, or we co-sleep with our child. There is NO sex. Pretty much a roommates/co-parenting situation. It's just hard to look at him every day and wonder why he can't just 'fess up. There is NOTHING worse he can do. Even if he came out of the closet, I wouldn't bat an eyelid, that's how low my expectations are of him. 

I just want the TRUTH and it feels like I'd get to the bottom of who kidnapped the Lindbergh baby before he'd confess.
Soooo frustrating!


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

ScorchedEarth said:


> Oh, I am in no fog. I sleep in another room, or we co-sleep with our child. There is NO sex. Pretty much a roommates/co-parenting situation. It's just hard to look at him every day and wonder why he can't just 'fess up. There is NOTHING worse he can do. Even if he came out of the closet, I wouldn't bat an eyelid, that's how low my expectations are of him.
> 
> I just want the TRUTH and it feels like I'd get to the bottom of who kidnapped the Lindbergh baby before he'd confess.
> Soooo frustrating!


Don't relent SE you know what you feel and you know why you feel it - it's your gut and it's so very rarely wrong


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

I know. I have learned from the past NOT to ignore my instinct. However, the closer I get to divorce, the more uneasy I am. 
I am a Christian, and for the past few days, the scripture "Be still, and know that I am God" is running through my head. Just yesterday I discovered by accident (he didn't tell me) that my stbxh has resumed therapy (which he stopped for a few months) and I'm wondering if this is what this is all about. Is God telling me to wait because something is happening? Is the therapist going to convince him to come clean? Is the therapy going to get him to a place where he is finally strong enough to be 100% honest?

I know a lot of my hesitation is fear. I understand that on a logical level, but I also believe that God is doing something. During my days of suspicion, that was my prayer - "Give me proof or give me peace", and by complete accident, I got my proof something was up.

I suppose if I have been able to deal with this for a year, a little more time won't hurt. 

*sigh* It's times like this I wish the booming voice of God thing would happen. Or a lightning strike. Something!


----------



## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

You should file. It will take time (how long depends on the state you live in) for the divorce to become final. If you don't file, you are shooting yourself in the foot.


----------



## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

He likely wants this marriage otherwise he wouldn't have shown such willing on conditions of R. 

Get filing, stick to what you said. This is the process you need for him to come clean...if he will. Don't think he hasn't been thinking about it. I have no doubt he has. When you gave him the ultimatum he has probably put a lot of thought into it, possibly thought of little else. He will have gone through every scenario, and thought of the reality of telling it all many times. If you stall, you lose that momentum. And you lose the invisible steps from him that you have gained in this ultimatum towards an honest R. 

Keep going through with what you said. The D can be halted at any point, you can even get back together again once you have D if you decide he is actually being honest...tho I doubt he is being. Just because you are D, doesn't mean that this is the end forever. But you need to make it like the end so that he believes it is so. And you need to believe it is so, unless there are major changes.

Don't ruin your health with prolonged limbo.


----------



## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Oh, and to answer the original question, my wayward only gave more truth once we were in a split up that seemed very real...it was about 1.5 months into a 2 month split. Before that we had just had fall outs that lasted no longer than a week. He came over drunk, I was cold with him and had told him not to come over, and he just kind of dropped it into the 'conversation'. 

He still hasn't given me the whole truth. I gave him an ultimatum also, which was at the beginning of 2013. To commit to me by the end of the year. Commitment, in my mind, though I wasn't explicit in this particular ultimatum, also means honesty and mo secrets. He can't do it. And he hasn't committed. 

Limbo is hell. This last few years have taken their toll. I am now considering how and when to play out my ultimatum so that is has maximum effect on what I wish to be the outcome.

They won't come truly clean unless they have to, if ever.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Well... the cracks are appearing.

I did not get a "I slept with someone" confession, but I did get a confession on two fronts.


One: (This happened months ago) After using a program to go through the deleted files on his iPhone, I found that he had used Google Maps to search for an address. I found out that the address was that of a full nude strip club in a city where he has gone to on a conference years ago without me. The story when I discovered it was "No, I didn't go. Some guys at the conference wanted to go and all I did was get them the info."

Well.... he finally admitted that yes, he did go. 

Two: I noticed that on the bank statements that in addition to running up large bar tabs, he was withdrawing large amounts at the ATM. His excuse "I needed cab money and I needed tip money". Now I thought it was for strip clubs, but he admitted that when he was out of town, he would go to the sex shop and spend hundreds on porn. Apparently, the routine was get drunk at the bar, go back to the hotel room, watch porn til the wee hours of the morning. He would then throw the porn out because he didn't want to risk it being found (especially after his DUI). This makes sense because I remember seeing a portable DVD player in the trunk and buying his explanation that hotel movies are too expensive so he bought a cheapo DVD player and would go to the RedBox and get movies. Seemed like a plausible explanation. Now I know.

Granted it could all be bullcrap, but I have seen the sex shop name appear on the bank statements a few times and I have seen receipts in his car too. Because the sex shop is a woman's name, I just assumed it was a bar. I Googled the name and the city. It's a sex shop. So I know there is truth to that claim.

I also know that when he is drunk, he cannot perform - well, at least not with me. Doing the math on how much he would have to drink to run up the bar tabs he did, it would not be unusual for him to have 10-15 drinks a night. 

So I asked the question why he didn't have sex when he had all the opportunity and availability, and his response was "I preferred my porn". I think back to all the nights he would be upstairs on the computer while he had a warm body downstairs in the bed, and it's all starting to click.

I'm not entirely sold on him not having sex with someone, but it feels like I got a huge parcel of puzzle pieces last night.

He's also agreed to a poly. (I know, everyone differs on the efficacy of them, but just the concept of agreeing to it when he refused before is a welcome change).

I'm getting closer!


----------



## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

I am glad you are feeling like you are understanding things better. 

I am not buying into he would rather be alone with his porn over having a warm body next to him. I am not saying it did not turn out that way do to not finding someone but it sure does not just clear him of intent. 

I think if you can get him to take the poly I would do it. I would do it when he was not expecting it. I think this will help you clear up any doubt. 

At least at this point you are getting something. I never even got her to say she was sorry when I went through it. 

Clay


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Well, for what I have been reading on porn addictions, for many guys, it's the fantasy they crave.
I don't 100% believe him obviously, but it happened with me, where he would rather stay up on the computer than come downstairs to be with me. He even admitted during our conversation last night that he knows that his performance suffered due to the porn issues (well that and the drinking). If it was true with me, it could be true with other women. He doesn't handle rejection well, so that lends itself to his EAs being just that.
Another thing I have been reading about porn addiction is that for guys who fear rejection or ridicule (my stbxh to-a-T), that they substitute real-people sex for porn because women in porn never say no. They're always ready to go, ready to do anything, can be anyone you want. 
Now of course, this could all be a ruse to lead me off track, but his porn addiction problems go waaaaaaay back, even before we dated (I remember specifically telling him, before we married, that I wanted all the porn out of the house before I moved in). I guess in my naivete (I was 22 when we married) I thought I would take the place of porn, not realizing what porn addiction is and how, just like cheating, it isn't specifically about sex. It's about addiction, chemical responses, etc.

Like I said, I still don't believe I have the 100% truth, but more puzzle pieces have been added, and they fit where they're supposed to.

I swear, after all the studying I have been doing in the past year, I should be a therapist myself, LOL!


----------



## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

I am sorry you are going through all of this. Your comment struck home about him having a warm body vs. his porn. He could have a real problem getting what he wants from you because he has trouble separating the Mom you taking care of the child and the sexy woman he wants. 

I saw that he is in IC but are you two in any type of MC together? One way or another there is a problem this is not getting addressed and it is holding you in Limbo.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

We went to one session of MC, but the therapist was pushing for R when I told him I did NOT want that at that point, but rather was there to get to the root of things and for my own personal sanity. 

The porn issues were well before we had our child, so it wasn't that (although he was in a strip club 10 days after I gave birth - he says he just wanted to see naked women, so... whatever).

I'm obviously dealing with an addict. I know that. And unfortunately, addicts are supreme liars. They have to be to be able to keep up the addiction and the illusion of being normal and functioning in society.

I guess it's the not knowing. There's another thread on CWI about a woman who waited 15 years to spill the beans and I am terrified that my story will end up the same. I've been trickle-truthed enough and I just want it over.


----------



## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

Well You might be right but I think you do need to rule things out. If you do push him to take a poly make one of the questions: 

Were you looking for sex when you were out of town? 

That might clear at least the intent. I think the part I get hung up on is the strip club and the bars. If it was just about porn why not just buy it and go back to the room. I think what you are possibly seeing is the after affects of his failure to find a willing woman. Maybe paying for sex would have been to expensive and he could not have hid that expense. 

Clay


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Well both his EAs live in the city (or within 20-30 miles of it) that his business trips occurred in, so finding a willing woman was not a problem.

His account of events is he would go out, get wasted, come back to the hotel room, watch porn.

For many alcoholics, part of the denial is by not drinking alone. By doing it in a social setting, it takes away the stigma and it becomes a "Hey, I'm just partying and having a good time" scenario. Even though I am not a big drinker, he would always make me a drink or try and make me drink with him. If not, he'd invite people out to our house and it inevitably turned into a drinking party. At one point we were having these "parties" every weekend - as in people would sleep over, there would be that much drinking.

WOW!

I just realized how dysfunctional we are.

Anyway, back to the story. 

Oh, I'm sure he wanted to sleep with women, even though he denies it. Interestingly, I found a text on his phone from a random woman and it sounds like she wanted more and he blew her off. If he wanted a cheap thrill, she's one barfly he could've had and apparently did not want. 

Or maybe he drank out of guilt. His dad is a pastor, so who KNOWS what guilt issues are floating around in that head.

Urgh!


----------



## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

honcho said:


> Some may never admit. My stbx had affair, moved into his house the day she left mine. They partied all over town as a couple for months. That affair has ended. I have no idea where she is even living.
> 
> Confronted her numerous times about the OM in the beginning. To this day she wont even acknowledge it ever happened or that she even moved in with him to anyone let alone me. That was 8 months ago.
> 
> Some will just stay in denial forever, they just cant admit they made a mistake.


So true - Over the holidays I asked my son if my stbx ever mentioned the OM - I mean - they have bee living together for almost 2 years - and he said "not a word".

Then when I saw her at the train station - she hugged me and then I said to her - it would help us to have a civil relationship if you would apologize for what happened and she said without missing a beat "Oh I am not sorry for what happened." Whoa...destroys a family, damages her children, but not sorry.
Really gave me insight on who she is and where she is emotionally.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

^^ Wow. 

Well, what I have sucks, but at least I don't have that. 

Stop making him look better! 

LOL!


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Here's a thought - am I making a mistake in being so hung up on the past as opposed to looking at what he's doing now? 
I always maintain that in order for complete healing to occur, the cancer must be cut out, but at the same time, regardless of what happened, I can't change it. However, I can shape and mold the future (possibly).

Truth be told, ever since DDay I have treated him like crap (reeeeallly mean stuff, like turning my head when he tries to kiss me, confiscating his wedding ring, and worse) but he is still here.

Why do they do that? Cheat then stay? And put up with the crap that comes along with staying?

I am very confused by him. Hmm. :scratchhead:


----------



## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

It sounds like you are getting closer to the truth. I am very envious of that. I feel I will never have that. Me aside....keep going. You are doing well. 

Possibly he puts up with the crap because he knows he deserves it. 

Doing selfish acts in a relationship such as these often trickle in slowly. Start off small, get away with it, they need more, and so the further steps are taken. Then when the sh*t hits the fan the enormity of what they have done and how far they have gone begins to hit home. 

It takes a special someone to never ever do anything remotely on the long path of betrayal to any person they are in a relationship with. Possibly that person does not exist. There are so many grey areas, and there are things that some people class as ok and some do not, such as porn. And the added grey area of porn being that for most people, a little is ok, a lot is not. When does a little become a lot? Some people think their man going to a strip club is ok. Some look at it as cheating. Grey areas. And then at some point it becomes very black and white. But they haven't been caught, they are addicted, and so they continue. At which point does it become black and white? That is another grey area!


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

ScorchedEarth said:


> Doing the math on how much he would have to drink to run up the bar tabs he did, it would not be unusual for him to have 10-15 drinks a night.


Does he frequently drink that much at home? 10 drinks is a huge amount. Or could he be buying drinks for other people at the bar?




ScorchedEarth said:


> Here's a thought - am I making a mistake in being so hung up on the past as opposed to looking at what he's doing now?
> I always maintain that in order for complete healing to occur, the cancer must be cut out, but at the same time, regardless of what happened, I can't change it. However, I can shape and mold the future (possibly).


I think it depends on you and what you need. For me I need to know that I know all about the past, which is a way to establish a baseline of honesty. If your H cannot be honest about what already happened, how can you be sure he is being honest today?

For me, once that foundation is set, then it becomes a 2 pronged approach. One issue is dealing with all the betrayals. The other issue is building positive behaviors and dynamics in the marriage going forward. I think both of those are necessary parts of R, and both should be worked on at the same time.

It is up to you how much you need to know about the past in order to move forward.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

^^
He would drink quite a bit at home, and his drinks at home were far stronger than what you'd get at a bar. What's the standard? 1 and a 1/4 ounce of liquor in a ****tail? Yeah, his homemade drinks would be a free pour. I really am estimating here, based on the bills racked up and what he likes to drink. He spent $200 in one night at the bars. Assuming $30-$40 tip, $20 food, that leaves $150 for drinks. Average top shelf ****tail will run about $10-$15 bucks. However, he is a whiskey drinker -a top shelf whiskey drinker, so those drinks/shots could easily be $20 a pop (I don't frequent bars myself, so I base this on the last time I went to a bar and saw their whiskey prices.) And, going back to the smaller liquor amounts you'd get at a bar vs. the crazy concoctions made at home, it stands to reason that he'd need more drinks to get buzzed. (I have been surrounded by alcoholics for a good portion of my life. It is ASTONISHING how some of them were able to drink non-stop and not die of alcohol poisoning. One friend was taken to hospital after he collapsed and his blood alcohol count was so high, the doctors literally said "We don't know how he is still alive".)

It's quite strange. I've got my divorce paperwork and have it sitting on the kitchen counter. Made the call to the attorney to ask clarification on things, and just when I was making good strides toward divorce, something kept drawing me to not look at the infidelity part, but to research addiction. At the risk of sounding egotistical, I think he will self-destruct if I leave. Which, part of me says "Good riddance" and another says "Do you want your child to be fatherless? Or worse - having a dad who is an absolute failure? Be the kid at school with the dad who stinks of liquor and is a total mess? Be the kid who's dad is in jail for multiple DUI's?" Although very intelligent, he has poor boundaries and makes poor decisions. If I leave, he will just go right back to that life with a vengeance. Back to that toxic life and those toxic people. He may not be my husband at that point, but he will still be my child's father. I cannot completely cut him loose. I know I cannot "fix" him, but much like people in AA or any other addiction program, you have an "accountability partner" - someone to lean on for support, and someone to call you out when you're slipping down that same path. 

At this point, it's not about husband and wife - it's about a person who is sick and who needs help. I make no excuses for his behavior, but I had an alcoholic co-worker who shot himself in the head and died. I remember feeling so guilty for not doing more to help. I know I wasn't responsible for his addiction or his problems, but I was a part of his life, and alcoholism was not new to me. Now if I can feel like this over someone who wasn't all that connected to me, how much worse would it be to not at least try and help the man to whom I am still legally married? 

I guess all this reading into addiction has softened my view on him. I'm still hurt, angry, and all those emotions. I will never trust him again, and our marriage will never be the same, if it ever even recovers. But if I look beyond that, to the core person... I feel pity. I can't even fathom what being that weak can be like. Not being able to stand against things you know are wrong and not ONLY wrong, but that are ultimately destructive. 

I think I owe it our child to try and be part of the fixing process. Therapy may succeed or fail, but I think I would feel like a jerk just walking away. He has gone cold-turkey on the drinking & porn AFAIK (well, can't really tell with the porn, but he no longer has that bloated alcoholic face and abdomen, and he doesn't reek either). He's in therapy. I treat him like garbage and he's still here. Comes home every night, full transparency. Talked about putting a tracking app on his phone which he agreed to. So... there's some positive sign that at least he is fighting the addiction demon. Whether that saves the marriage is yet to be seen.

I just really feel that God is reminding me that even after all the crappy things that have happened, by stbxh is still a person. A very broken person who needs help.

*sigh* Tough call.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Ok, I was wondering if perhaps he was buying drinks for women at those bars. Last time I bought drinks at a real bar was probably 30 years ago!

Your husband needs to hit rock bottom before he'll maybe decide to face his addiction. It is possible he may need for you to leave him before it is his rock bottom.

Have you talked to anyone at AA? I see people frequently suggest sober spouses go to AA to learn how to help their alcoholic.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Oh, I'm sure he was buying drinks for women. Wouldn't surprise me if he was buying rounds for the bar to be "the man". Wouldn't also surprise me if he was being taken advantage of by his drinking buddies and/or bar staff by putting drinks on his tab, knowing he would be so drunk he wouldn't even question it. Anything is possible. What I do know is when he got busted on his DUI, the machine gave a .2 reading. According to the weight ranges/BAC chart, to get to that point he'd have had at least about 7-8 drinks and keep it at a constant pace (the alcohol count starts to diminish after 40 mins). To put in in perspective, at .35 BAC, you can slip into a coma, and a .4 reading is when death can occur, so basically it was not uncommon for my stbxh to drink himself halfway to death on a regular basis. My friend, the one who suicided? His BAC was .5 when they got him to hospital after collapsing with the DT's. That's why doctors were stunned he was still breathing.

I think me discovering his affairs and forcing him to tell his family what had been going on all these years (porn, drinking, gambling, strip clubs, etc.) was rock bottom. There was nowhere to hide now. Everyone knows his dirty little secrets. His mom tells me that she will call him at least once a day to remind him of what he's put at stake (her dad was an adulterer too, with another family on the other side of the country). She gets the pain I'm going through, and has made it her duty to be a thorn in his side, lol!

Like I said, the drinking has stopped. AFAIK the porn has too. No more business trips. Home every night. There is more to go, and I expect more trickle truth, but I think that if he gets his addictions under control, the rest will fall into place. And if not, I will have peace in my heart that I did all I could to help him, not for the marriage sake, but just for the sake of not letting another human being slip away - especially the father of my child. I'm not, nor want to be, one of these women that trashes their children's father for whatever reason. Whether this succeeds or fails, I want to be able to look my child in the eye years from now and honestly say "I did everything I could".

Only time will tell I suppose. I will look into AA for myself (as a supporter). Thanks for the tip!


----------

