# Double Standards OK for Us?



## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

When our Unfaithful SO agrees to work on things, I know the best advice is to ask for all passwords to e-mail accounts or Facebook and require total openness. But what about us? Do we – who have given them no reason to doubt – also have to hold ourselves to the same standards?

This board – for example. I will likely continue to post here even if things start to improve, but I would likely hide it from my wife by mostly posting from work. I feel – for me – it is important to be able to continue to speak freely with no concern of how what I say will affect my wife or my marriage going forward. Its almost like therapy.

Are we allowed a double standard, or do we have to become completely transparent as well?

This – by the way – is purely hypothetical for me at the moment. Not asking necessarily for my situation, but more in general.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I feel that it is less of a requirement on YOUR part, as she is the one who has showed the Untrust, or wandering for other communication with men, etc. But if she , in turn , wants/asks you to bare all of yourself the way you are asking her too, I feel it would be in your best interest to do this -for her. 

So you both are baring your souls to each other. 

Would thier be anything on this board to show distrust from you? Probably not, just your struggle with how you miss her & want her back. I would think that would be a comfort to her -but also a revelation of the pain she put you through -- because of how much you love her - if she does come back to you in every sense.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

I guess with this board, its a matter of being able to get objective advice - which I need to be totally honest about myself, my wife and my marriage in order to get good advice.

And - if things are improving but still in doubt - I won't want her to be able to read my mind, know my fears, weaknesses, doubts, etc. 

This is kind of my "safe" place - which is something everyone needs.

And once again - right now this is just an example.

What about people who had problems with their spouse staying out late? In those cases, are we allowed a monthly "night out" with friends (and alcohol) while requesting that the SO temporarily restrict their nightlife/social behaviors?


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

I think strongly to opness on both sides.. What will happen if the one who was not cheated on does not share is eventually the one who cheated will feel they have "paid enough" and feel that double standard.

Both should be open.. 

You make a great point about this forum. That is "Therapy".
Certainly there is an expectation of privacy in both to me.
Formal therapy and what you do yourself.

At the end though sure would be a nice world if your SO WAS your therapy!


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Vino - totally agree - SO was my best friend and therapist for about 18 years. Now we have major trust issues which will make it hard for ME to be totally free and honest with her. I feel a need to keep my guard up, so to speak.

On the other hand though - I've always been VERY cautious about what I write to her in e-mails or texts, knowing those words are permanent. 

There's a subtle line in a song by one of my favorite bands - Everclear - Now That It's Over - *"don't write words if you don't want me to read them."*

Could refer to love letters, e-mails sent out of anger or to a lover, forum posts, etc., etc.

So - even though I speak freely here - I think its important to remember that this is a PUBLIC forum and that these words - on a personal level - can and have been used against some of the people who have posted here.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Yeah, to protect yourself emotionally, this is a safe haven, probably for many - like therapy without the cost. I understand it would never be a good idea to share such emotioanl , even angry forum posts with any wayward spouse unless the relationship has been totally rebuilt on solid ground, with overwhelming trust, honestly and Love on a daily basis. Only then (for some) may they want to go the extra mile & share their struggle & raw pain, even madness to the spouse that caused much of it. I guess that could be a HUGE risk for some-depending on the spouse!! 

I would want to hear it personally -if i caused my husband this pain. But that is me. And I know I would share it also, if I was in that situation, only IF I felt it was all rebuilt again, of coarse. 

But everyone is different. A shame about how some people will hold every word/feeling we say & share against us- "pernamently", when many times it was uttered just in the moment. It is simply human nature to say ugly things when we are upset, when we have been hurt, we're all guilty of that. 

Personally, I feel it's better to have an all out mouthy BRAWL with knowing how to deeply say you are sorry & BURY it afterwards. In comparison to cautiously walking on almost "egg shells" & not being able to be honest even in hard communication, worrying about every little word uttered lest the other uses it against you in the future.  >>>>
But I know that is much more common.


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

SA... I once saw in a movie a (referring to your monthly all out brawl) a couple, who made a pact that every time they argued... they did it naked.. It was so funny.
I know its an impossible pact to keep but: How much that would alter the potential to say hurtful things in anger?

Seems fun to think about anyway.
haha.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

63Vino said:


> SA... I once saw in a movie a (referring to your monthly all out brawl) a couple, who made a pact that every time they argued... they did it naked.. It was so funny.
> I know its an impossible pact to keep but: How much that would alter the potential to say hurtful things in anger?
> 
> Seems fun to think about anyway.
> haha.


Sounds like a great idea - until the first time she gets really mad, then points and just laughs...

:lol:


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

nice777guy said:


> Sounds like a great idea - until the first time she gets really mad, then points and just laughs...
> 
> :lol:



well true... but at least her anger is disarmed!!!! along with yer penis of course hahahaha


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## vibrant13 (Mar 17, 2010)

In a "perfect" relationship there would be no need to know eachother's passwords. Ideally, I would like to be able to have my facebook, myspace,email, etc. all to myself. But my husband is very "uncomfortable" with not having access to all of my accounts. Actually we've gotten into knock down drag outs over it. He doesn't like my being "friends" on facebook with ANY guys. It doesn't matter if they were one of my best friends in high school. I think it's ridiculous...but I pick my battles. 

He has given me the passwords to all of the accounts of his that I KNEW about. (The ones he wanted me to know about anyway)


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

vibrant - been reading your other thread and think you are kind of in the opposite position of what I'm talking about. Sounds like YOU have been faithful - he hasn't. 

So - do YOU have a RIGHT to demand his info without giving him all of yours, since you've really done nothing wrong? I think you should be able to be friends on Facebook with old male friends AND that you have a right to privacy. But do you have to sacrifice your rights if he's expected to do the same?


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## vibrant13 (Mar 17, 2010)

It's hard to give you an honest and good answer to that. I personally would have never even THOUGHT to ask for that kind of information (passwords etc.) If the tables were turned, I could understand him asking that info of me. 

I have conflicting feelings with the question you're asking. On one side - if you have nothing to hide, it shouldn't be a big deal. On the other side - everyone (married or not) should be allowed some personal privacy. 

I can see that if you ask that info of someone how they would want the same in return. It doesn't make it right, but I can see both points.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

63Vino said:


> SA... I once saw in a movie a (referring to your monthly all out brawl) a couple, who made a pact that every time they argued... they did it naked.. It was so funny.



What was the name of this movie, I would love to rent it -if Netflix had it - or maybe a porn flick?


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

SimplyAmorous said:


> What was the name of this movie, I would love to rent it -if Netflix had it - or maybe a porn flick?


GEEZ.. i'd love to tell you but i have no idea.. I jsut remember one of the scenes as they ran to the bedroom all pissed off at each other as they stripped in order to uphold the pact..

I'll wrack my brain a bit... if i can remember .. i sure will come back and tell you... Jennifer Anniston is coming to mind... but maybe just because... well just because. hahaha


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

[QUOTE=nice777guy;135914

This is kind of my "safe" place - which is something everyone needs.

I think you answered your own question! 

People step outside of relationships usually because there was something missing, something not right. (Not necessarily the other spouse's fault, but they feel this way nonetheless.)
To expect the WS to come back into a relationship where they are now even more suffocated and have no personal freedom or privacy.... No room to work things out, whatever their own personal pain is.

Doesn't sound like an attractive option to me. I think there has to be a compromise.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Until you trust your wife again, NG, keep it private--with the promise that as you feel more confident about the relationship, you will "open up" more. Yes, your w should be your "safe place," but she has forfeited that for the time being. 

It's also a good idea to restrict yourself to one or two "safe" places, and open everything else. As for the night out, of course you can still go--you have remained faithful and trustworthy. You, however, are the guardian of your honor, and if you feel those nights out are becoming something else--b/c of your anger toward, or distrust of, your wife, then you regulate yourself.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> Until you trust your wife again, NG, keep it private--with the promise that as you feel more confident about the relationship, you will "open up" more. Yes, your w should be your "safe place," but she has forfeited that for the time being.
> 
> It's also a good idea to restrict yourself to one or two "safe" places, and open everything else. As for the night out, of course you can still go--you have remained faithful and trustworthy. You, however, are the guardian of your honor, and if you feel those nights out are becoming something else--b/c of your anger toward, or distrust of, your wife, then you regulate yourself.



But it also just smacks of self-righteousness to say "I can go out on my own because I have been trustworthy". It's sort of ignoring the fact that the marriage is broken, not just the WS. Everyone is vulnerable right now, not just the WS.
Hard situation, but just looking at the other side of the coin.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> But it also just smacks of self-righteousness to say "I can go out on my own because I have been trustworthy". It's sort of ignoring the fact that the marriage is broken, not just the WS. Everyone is vulnerable right now, not just the WS.
> Hard situation, but just looking at the other side of the coin.


Agreed - it sounds self-righteous - and its not black and white.

:scratchhead:

But realistically, she has no reason to NOT trust me. And she - if she really wants the marriage to work - should be working to rebuild trust.

Its not to say that I don't have issues - that I didn't contribute. My issues just weren't/aren't a matter of trustworthiness.

And maybe this wasn't the best example - its really meant to be hypothetical.

Are we, or should we, give up the same "rights" that we are requesting they give up?

I can see this turning into a pissing match. For example - with FB friends. If I KNOW I haven't abused FB, but I have used it to chat a couple of old female friends. Do I have to give up any female friends if I expect her to unfriend a man that she was texting late at night behind my back while I was sleeping?

We were both chatting. Me - for only 15 minutes - maybe every two weeks - at reasonable hours of the day. I didn't advertise it, but I don't feel like I'm hiding it either.

Compared to her - talking or texting for several hours several nights a week while I was sleeping or at work.

Any other thoughts on this one?


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

What if the SO, that was having the internet forum and chat EAs says that was/is their safe place and people they feel comfortable talking with?

Somewhat hypothetical but a thought I've had. My wife has everything locked down and I am not welcome. Twitter, myspace her forum is public but the chats and emails are locked and erased immediately. Same with cc and bank accounts, she has completed access to mine, I have none to hers.

So, i feel a bit guilty about being .. well hidden...with this account. Like nice777guy says, it feels a bit hypocritical to me. I don't like being a sneaky hider and don't think it has it's place in a marriage. Yet I know it would set us way back again if she saw some things I've written ... well even this post :

I'm curious to see the different response here - good post Nice777guy.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

What I used to think:

- No problem being friends with the opposite sex
- Your spouse doesn't have the right to know WHAT you say, but should have SOME IDEA of WHO you are saying it to, and how often

Back in the old days - when we shared e-mail accounts and there was a high level of trust - I could see who she was e-mailing and how frequently, but I never felt a need to open an e-mail to see what was being said.

And this forum - I feel this is nothing more than a reaction to things that she did and that this is self preservation - a way to keep my sanity at times. That - to me - is completely different than what she was doing.

I would like to believe that we BOTH still have a right to PRIVACY, but not secrecy. But I also know that a lot more openness and a willingness to sacrifice some degree of privacy on her part - for the short term - would greatly speed up the healing process. I don't think that's something she will offer up.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Niceguy~

I have a solution to this dilemma I think--at least one that works for me. The thing that is killer in a relationship is if the partners are not TRANSPARENT to one another. That means they let you see through them (the good, the bad, the ugly) and you let them see through you to the REAL you (the good, the bad, the ugly). If something is not okay with you, you don't come here and whine about it and say nothing to your partner. You may come here, vent a bit, figure a better way to say it or word it, and then you go and talk to them and let them see it. 

The double standard would be "I expect you to be transparent to me, but I will not take that risk and be transparent with you." It is appropriate to have some privacy (that's closing the bathroom door when you go to the toilet or having a journal) but it is not appropriate to have secrecy (that's keeping a part of the real you hidden so that your real thoughts, ideas and plans are kept deliberately from being known). Does this make sense to you--this distinction? It is reasonable to have some privacy for example of medical records or confidentiality with a therapist...it is NOT reasonable to go to a lawyer, keep it hidden, start secret bank accounts, etc. 

Thus the way I see it, you don't hide this site. If you want them to give you their passwords to email, cell, IM, and Facebook so you can periodically check on them to see if they're contacting Other People, it is reasonable to give them the same passwords so they can check on you too...and see if you are being transparent. I would let them know this site exists and even possibly that this is a place that you come for internet "advice" and to help sort out some thoughts. Does that make sense? I would think they could view it as an online journal where the thoughts might be kind of raw but you need it for help to process some of your feelings. As an example, when I was disloyal I knew for a fact that my Dear Hubby had a place he went to sort through things, I know his user name and I've seen some of what he wrote--and at a certain point I decided to just let that site be his safe place. Now, he doesn't visit there and if he did I suspect he'd get some assistance figuring out how to deal with whatever the thing was (including personal responsibility).


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Affaircare - I know I've seen posts before asking the question "does your spouse know about this site" - seemed like it was a 50/50 split - some know, some don't.

Also, have seen several where a spouse found out about the site and it caused things to get worse, at least momentarily. The poster's partner read about a keylogger, or felt betrayed that their spouse was telling the world about things that should be kept private.

I have no keylogger - but I'm put a lot of raw emotions out here. I know that I'm not ready to be that "naked" and emotionally transparent. I've been hurt and therefore feel very guarded.

Not disagreeing - just trying to work through it and make sense of it.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Transparency and openess is a red herring. It isn't a double standard. One partner uses grotesque deceit and subterfuge and then uses the ironic cover of trust against the other partner.

On the whole, nobody here is perpetrating a fundamental betrayal. The point of transparency is to get back to the place where deception and betrayal weren't even on the radar. Being accountable for your behavior needn't include a log of your daily activities.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Yep that's well said Deejo. I wouldn't advise one spouse to read the other spouse's journal, as a person needs a place to blow off steam, say what's on their mind unedited, etc. But having a place to journal and being open/transparent do not exclude each other. 

I think my thought would be to not hide it, as I said because hiding is lack of transparency...but I also see no reason or need to provide username, password, etc. here either. I would think "I do have a site that I go to for journaling and some advice and that site is one place I consider a personal journal." Thus you're being honest and your spouse knows it exists. 

Here's the fact: what you say or have said about yourself, your spouse, your marriage may be 100% true ... but if your spouse were to read it, it would be harmful and for no need. Thus Deejo is right on the money-get past the place of hiding and covering up, and risk letting them see the real you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think that if I were in your shoes, I would work like crazy to make my marriage perfect - give it 150% every day, until you both reach the point that you're totally happy with each other. I would tell her that you've been keeping your thoughts online, and stop at that. Then, after you're at the place you need to be in your marriage, offer to show it to her. By that point, you two should be solid enough that she can look at it and say, 'wow, I really put you through hell, didn't I? I'm sorry.'


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

These answers are helpful, but I feel we are stuck on one example.

My original question was if someone has betrayed your trust, can you hold them to a higher standard than you hold yourself to?

Not just e-mail passwords, or how you share things on this board.

If they were using Facebook to deceive, do you both have to drop Friends of the opposite sex, or even drop Facebook altogether?

Do I lose the right to go to happy hour with co-workers - men and women - if my spouse had been abusing similar situations?

If my spouse has said "I'm going to dinner by myself" and actually gone to meet someone, do I lose the right to say "I'm going (alone) to the driving range and hit some golf balls - be back in a couple of hours?"

What about money? If I've abused the credit card, do we BOTH have to cut up all of our plastic?

If I'm caught renting "Gang Bang #7", does my wife lose the right to rent the new Twilight movie if it stimulates her in a similar way? Gang Bang #7 would probably have a better plot...but I digress.

The PERFECT answer is that if I had harmed my marriage and was serious about fixing it, I would be doing my best to not only make the effort but to also SHOW that the effort was being made. I would stay off of Facebook AND delete any questionable friends and would NOT ask the same of my spouse. I would NOT leave the house to go out "alone" frequently for hours at a time, even if my spouse was doing so. I might cut up my own credit cards and ask my spouse to go with me if I had some serious shopping to do.

In other words, I would hold MYSELF to a higher standard in order to make things right again. 

But is that reasonable to ask or expect the same from your SO?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

nice777guy said:


> In other words, I would hold MYSELF to a higher standard in order to make things right again.
> 
> But is that reasonable to ask or expect the same from your SO?


 I agree with this :iagree: BUt that doesn't mean your SO will, so therein lies the problem.

I think IF your SO wants/desires you to do the same things (cut up your credit cards, have no friends of the opposite sex on facebook etc), I would go along with it (for a time) -to make her happy. BUt in reality, she should NOT be asking you to do the same -since she is the one who has been unfaithful. She would , in my opionion , be taking advantage of the situation if she asked the same of you - who is the hurt victim- by her own hands.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

OK - so is the answer that if they don't show the willingness to change, and they expect you to match any changes that you've requested tit for tat, that they probably aren't serious and none of this matters?


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

I think it depends on the item based on which you’re trying to hold your SO to a higher standard. It’s probably why the answers are turning into being focused on one area. In some areas it doesn’t hurt to say that what is good for the goose is good for the gander but in other areas the double standard definitely applies.

My thought on e-mail and passwords, for example, is why not make it a two-way street as an offering of good faith? That way the wayward spouse can see that you’re being transparent too, you have nothing to hide so why not. 

When it comes to dropping opposite sex friends (on fb or in RL) or skipping happy hour with a mixed crowd – absolutely not. Unless of course there is one specific opposite sex friend that the WS truly feels uncomfortable with, in that case you still need to respect their feelings.

No way you lose the privilege of golfing alone because the WS used that excuse to have an affair. 

I don't think there is a blanket answer to this question.



nice777guy said:


> But is that reasonable to ask or expect the same from your SO?


To answer your ultimate question, YES! They are the one who broke the trust in the first place. This is the only way to rebuild trust. How else are you supposed to get the trust back if the WS doesn’t prove they’re trustworthy with action? I think there’s a way to do it with tact, without the self-righteous attitude by treating each situation independently.

ETA: Gah, I was typing while this was posted.



nice777guy said:


> OK - so is the answer that if they don't show the willingness to change, and they expect you to match any changes that you've requested tit for tat, that they probably aren't serious and none of this matters?


If the WS does not show any willingness to change whatsoever then I would lean towards saying that means they are not serious about repairing things. As far as whether or not demanding the same transparency translates to the same meaning, it depends. I don’t think they’re out of line for simply making the request due to the self-righteous angle but I also stand by my first answer, that you can agree to be transparent in some areas but you don’t need to match tit for tat.

Something that keeps coming to mind is the fact that the cheating spouse will often accuse their spouse of cheating. Once they themselves are cheating they often misinterpret innocent actions of the non-cheating spouse to mean that they’re cheating as well. This could be fueling the demand that the non-cheating spouse make the same sacrifices and to that I say tough noogies.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> If they were using Facebook to deceive, do you both have to drop Friends of the opposite sex, or even drop Facebook altogether?


We both have our FB pages, we have each other named as spouses, we say we're married, and we have our PC screens face each other so we see what's on the other guys page--and I have his password and he has mine if we ever feel the need to look.  The point: we are transparent about facebook.



> Do I lose the right to go to happy hour with co-workers - men and women - if my spouse had been abusing similar situations?


I would suggest not going to happy hour voluntarily, at least for the time being. Remember your vow was to give affection and dedication to one person--your spouse--and if it is helpful for them to avoid happy hour, I would personally volunteer to avoid my own happy hour. After all it's not like I have an inalienable "right" to go to happy hour alone. I volunteered to share myself with my spouse, not happy hour!  Another alternative would be to meet each other at each other's happy hours (like you go to hers...she comes to yours...alternate). 



> If my spouse has said "I'm going to dinner by myself" and actually gone to meet someone, do I lose the right to say "I'm going (alone) to the driving range and hit some golf balls - be back in a couple of hours?"


Maybe. See Niceguy I get it that you didn't particularly misuse the "alone time" but your commitment is to your spouse and not to driving golf balls. I would suggest a MUU over this one (MUU=Mutual United Understanding). Reach an agreement that is good for both the goose and the gander, and yep for the most part if you expect it of them, then hold yourself to that standard too. I would say that everyone needs alone time--even a former disloyal--but the key is transparency. Can a former disloyal go to the hair salon alone and verify they were there and be accountable for their time? Then chances are that the loyal one can too. 



> What about money? If I've abused the credit card, do we BOTH have to cut up all of our plastic?


For money, specifically credit card, I think it may be a bit different, and here's why. First, if one spouse charged up gobs and gobs on a card, it is 100% their job to pay that off. That's an easy natural consequence that's not vindictive...just a cost of their choices at the time. Second, I'd suggest that NEITHER spouse live beyond their means, and as a rule that means if you can't pay for it, you shouldn't put it on a credit card. Third, I'd say if you expect your spouse to live on a cash basis you should too--lead by example; however, money can get different because one of the two spouses is just better at being responsible with it, paying bills timely, etc. Thus with specific regard to money, it may be wiser to reach an agreement like "Look, honey, you are really good at doing this and I'm not. Thus I turn over my card so I'm not tempted, and you can keep one card open--but we agree that before you ever put ANYTHING on that card, we discuss it and agree together to charge it." 



> If I'm caught renting "Gang Bang #7", does my wife lose the right to rent the new Twilight movie if it stimulates her in a similar way? Gang Bang #7 would probably have a better plot...but I digress.


I'm assuming Gang Bang #7 is a XXX hardcore porn video and Twilight is rated PG-13 for some violence and action. Thus even if she has an enormous "celebrity crush" on Edward, the context is entirely different. And yep this one is easy--if one spouse doesn't want the other to view porn, then they volunteer to also not view porn. I suspect you may be doing a little gaslighting here. 



> The PERFECT answer is that if I had harmed my marriage and was serious about fixing it, I would be doing my best to not only make the effort but to also SHOW that the effort was being made. I would stay off of Facebook AND delete any questionable friends and would NOT ask the same of my spouse. I would NOT leave the house to go out "alone" frequently for hours at a time, even if my spouse was doing so. I might cut up my own credit cards and ask my spouse to go with me if I had some serious shopping to do.
> 
> In other words, I would hold MYSELF to a higher standard in order to make things right again.
> 
> But is that reasonable to ask or expect the same from your SO?


I know it may not be popular but I believe it's not only reasonable but something you should expect. I'm speaking as the disloyal here--if I had to turn over all my passwords, be open about FB, email and IM's, never get a moment to myself, can't spend money, and lose all my friends--all while my spouse held no responsibility or accountability back, could have secret emails, FB or IM, got to have any time he wanted to himself, could spend any money he wanted without consulting me, and could keep spending time away from me with friends...let's just say I believe resentment would build, mainly because that's not recovery, that's control. Recovery would be BOTH partners admitting where they went wrong, and BOTH partners agreeing to be transparent to each other, and BOTH partners taking the risk of changing, and BOTH partners realizing that their life should be intimately shared with their spouse. 

I would not be cool with being controlled. All that does is force someone to be who they're not or do what they don't want to do. I very much WOULD be cool with working together, mutually, on both of us changing things .


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

First of all, my wife probably groans more while watching Twilight: New Moon than I ever have while watching (insert your own favorite or made up adult film here). Once Jacob takes his shirt off about halfway through the movie, it never goes back on. And my wife really, really likes that. I could (_mostly_ joking here) argue that it is the equivalent of porn for women.

Also, I am by no means talking about holding anyone to ALL of the above examples. You might as well buy the cage that I just read about in the sex forums. But I also didn't want the discussion to focus only on the one example of sharing e-mails or PC info.

And yes - even if a spouse agreed to do many of these things, I recognize that there would eventually be some resentment.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> OK - so is the answer that if they don't show the willingness to change, and they expect you to match any changes that you've requested tit for tat, that they probably aren't serious and none of this matters?


So you as the loyal spouse see that opposite sex friends on FB can easily lead to an A. You see that secret email and chat can easily lead to an A. You see that a secret credit card easily hides an A. You see that sneaking off for "alone time" is an excuse for an A. You see that porn can be damaging to your marriage and used like an A. And you, as the loyal spouse, want your disloyal to not do all those things...but you can? You're what? Stronger, better, more moral and won't be tempted like they were? 

In a way this doesn't make sense to me. If a disloyal person is wiling to admit the mistake and say "Well here's where I went wrong, what tempted me: Facebook, emails and happy hour. So I'm going to delete my FB, open one email you can see and stop going to happy hour." Why then is the loyal person expecting to say "Well I will not be tempted by FB like you were so I'm keeping it. I won't use my email secretly like you did, but you still can't see it. And I behave at happy hour so I'm going." To me that sounds derogatory and a little defiant because you know these things are temptations that can easily lead to an affair, and you expect someone else to avoid them, but you are not willing to do so. The message being sent is "I'm not willing to avoid things for the good of the marriage--my rights as an individual come first." Even if you didn't do anything, the point of recovery is to learn that BOTH people have to intimately share themselves and BOTH lose a little "individual rights" to gain a strong, deep, close relationship. Again the point is to reach a Mutual United Understanding with your spouse on all these things--all of them. And until there is an understanding you can both support enthusiastically, you don't do them.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

nice777guy said:


> Also, I am by no means talking about holding anyone to ALL of the above examples. You might as well buy the cage that I just read about in the sex forums. But I also didn't want the discussion to focus only on the one example of sharing e-mails or PC info.
> 
> And yes - even if a spouse agreed to do many of these things, I recognize that there would eventually be some resentment.


Thinking we were typing at the same time AC.

If it sounds like I've picked a side, or think I have things figured out, I don't feel that way.

Things just become so complicated once trust is gone.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

In general, its a lousy concept that to make my marriage work, I may have to sacrifice a certain degree of both privacy and secrecy as a way to help us recover from my wife's mistakes.

I have also made mistakes - but not the same kind of mistakes.

And I sometimes wonder if my wife just hasn't changed into a person that I'm no longer compatible with. I sometimes think she's looking for more of those butterfly feelings that come from a new relationship. Its hard to re-create those after 15 years of marriage. And really hard after you feel you've been sucker punched.

My wife's lease is up at the end of May, so we will soon need to start negotiating what the "new rules" will be once she moves back home (assuming she does). I don't want to be controlling, but my wife no longer has my blind trust, and for good reason.

I don't have the answers - I'm looking for them - and hoping that I find them soon. Thanks to all.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> OK - so is the answer that if they don't show the willingness to change, and they expect you to match any changes that you've requested tit for tat, that they probably aren't serious and none of this matters?


 Pretty much.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> And I sometimes wonder if my wife just hasn't changed into a person that I'm no longer compatible with. I sometimes think she's looking for more of those butterfly feelings that come from a new relationship. Its hard to re-create those after 15 years of marriage. And really hard after you feel you've been sucker punched.


If you truly think your wife will always be looking for the butterflies, I think it would be in your marriage's best interests to get you both educated on what relationships, love, and biology have in common. Maybe take a sex education course or something. Because she needs to learn that the butterflies are really just chemicals your body produces to keep man and woman going for each other long enough to procreate and keep the species going. That's why it dies away after a couple years - and a couple kids (in the old days) - that's all you needed to keep you in bed together and keep the family name going. She needs to understand the difference. If you don't invest in some good counseling along those lines, I'm doubtful for your outcome.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Well i can tell you that after my wife and I truly started going to counseling and repairing our marriage that I DID get those new relation butterfly feelings again (don't think she has). But he point is you can really start seeing and appreciating the person you fell in love with again. It is almost like somebody new in a way.

At any rate - just saying it happened for me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That reminds me of something. When I first went to another forum, they told me to stop blaming my H, and start looking at myself. Nah, didn't want to; it was all his fault. Til I finally DID look at myself, and saw that I was making him just as miserable as he was making me.

So I stopped focusing on his bad side, and looked for his good side. I stopped Love Busting him. I started meeting his Emotional Needs, even if I didn't like him at the time.

Oddly enough, I started seeing a 'different' person in front of me than the mean ogre I'd been complaining about. The old guy, the one I liked at first, was still there, just buried and protecting himself, just like I had been doing.

Once I took the first step, doing the right things and being a better wife, he started looking better. Because I wasn't looking at him through tainted, angry glasses. Whodathunkit?

Bottom line, stop worrying about what THEY give to the marriage, and concentrate on what YOU give, and you may be surprised at what you get back.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Well of course it would look self-righteous to announce "I can but you can't because I'VE been the 'good' one in this marriage" (picking up on an earlier comment. But life doesn't work like that, does it? You lead your life and if your SO asks, "hey, why do you get to go out with friends and I do not?", then you give the obvious answer--But if your SO is that stupid, you have a different problem! 

Of course, this is assuming you set up boundaries. And while it sounds "self-righteous," it is not. To point out that you are trustworthy is a fact of the marriage, so to speak (again, if anyone actually needs the fact pointed out). 

As for not sharing sites, remember that a person in a marriage should have openness as the default. If you find one place you need to "hide" something while you build up trust in your spouse again, make it clear that is your one private spot, your one safe spot. Anyone who claims they need a bunch of "private" or safe spots is either not happy/trusting in the marriage, or hiding something. Either way, lack of openness is a big problem, but the resolution isn't in "insisting" on openness without exploring the bigger issue--are they feeling unsafe/untrusting? Are they hiding an EA or more? You force openness, and the real issue will just go underground elsewhere.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

You mention boundaries - that is part of my struggle.

Things that would not have bothered me before (wife having lunch with an old male friend, going out drinking with a single girlfriend, friends with guys I don't know on FB) bother me now.

Affaircare - a lot of what you say makes sense. Where I get stuck is that you suggest its being self-rightous to say that I'm above temptation. Is there a way to compare this to alcoholism? If so, my wife has in my eyes proven that she can't hold her liquor or drink socially without taking it to excess. I feel like I do just fine (speaking metaphorically). As a supportive spouse, I would not drink around her, but I would probably drink if out with friends or other circumstances that don't include her. Could I become an alcholic? Yes - but I haven't. Doesn't make me self-righteous. We all have different weaknesses.

Speaking to Facebook - I don't trust her - and I feel she's earned that. I think she trusts me - and I've earned that trust. Is it about me being "above" the temptation, and being self-righteous, or is it more an issue of my wife's history?


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> I know it may not be popular but I believe it's not only reasonable but something you should expect. I'm speaking as the disloyal here--if I had to turn over all my passwords, be open about FB, email and IM's, never get a moment to myself, can't spend money, and lose all my friends--all while my spouse held no responsibility or accountability back, could have secret emails, FB or IM, got to have any time he wanted to himself, could spend any money he wanted without consulting me, and could keep spending time away from me with friends...let's just say I believe resentment would build, mainly because that's not recovery, that's control. Recovery would be BOTH partners admitting where they went wrong, and BOTH partners agreeing to be transparent to each other, and BOTH partners taking the risk of changing, and BOTH partners realizing that their life should be intimately shared with their spouse.
> I would not be cool with being controlled. All that does is force someone to be who they're not or do what they don't want to do. I very much WOULD be cool with working together, mutually, on both of us changing things .





Exactly! I agree.

On the other hand, I think posting here without her knowledge is fine. I don't think there's much chance it will lead to an affair.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> So you as the loyal spouse see that opposite sex friends on FB can easily lead to an A. You see that secret email and chat can easily lead to an A. You see that a secret credit card easily hides an A. You see that sneaking off for "alone time" is an excuse for an A. You see that porn can be damaging to your marriage and used like an A. And you, as the loyal spouse, want your disloyal to not do all those things...but you can? You're what? Stronger, better, more moral and won't be tempted like they were?
> 
> In a way this doesn't make sense to me. If a disloyal person is wiling to admit the mistake and say "Well here's where I went wrong, what tempted me: Facebook, emails and happy hour. So I'm going to delete my FB, open one email you can see and stop going to happy hour." Why then is the loyal person expecting to say "Well I will not be tempted by FB like you were so I'm keeping it. I won't use my email secretly like you did, but you still can't see it. And I behave at happy hour so I'm going." To me that sounds derogatory and a little defiant because you know these things are temptations that can easily lead to an affair, and you expect someone else to avoid them, but you are not willing to do so..


Exactly again! :iagree:

If someone wants to cheat that bad, they're going to find a way to do it anyway, even if you think you've got all their avenues of doing so blocked off. So I would say if she truly wants back in the relationship, and you want her back, you will probably have to allow her to live as a normal adult would. (Within reason). Otherwise, she WILL end up feeling resentful- and you as her jailor will probably not seem all that attractive an option. 
I totally understand your distrust. I don't think she should be running around to happy hours, etc. without you. But if you want to work this out, you may have to bring her along to your happy hours. She is probably not an evil person (or you wouldn't want her back), so she now understands how affairs can happen. And because she understands this now, she will worry about it happening to you, if you engage in certain activities with the opposite sex and her not around.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> In general, its a lousy concept that to make my marriage work, I may have to sacrifice a certain degree of both privacy and secrecy as a way to help us recover from my wife's mistakes. I have also made mistakes - but not the same kind of mistakes.
> 
> ...My wife's lease is up at the end of May, so we will soon need to start negotiating what the "new rules" will be once she moves back home (assuming she does). I don't want to be controlling, but my wife no longer has my blind trust, and for good reason.
> 
> I don't have the answers - I'm looking for them - and hoping that I find them soon. Thanks to all.


Hey NiceGuy~

Bear in mind that I'm not trying to come at you like "picking sides" either, but more like showing or explaining to you what it may be like on the disloyal side. To be honest, the types of things you mention are all things where I'd suggest that the couple honestly negotiate with each other and agree that until you hit an agreement you can both MUTUALLY support with enthusiasm, you won't do it. 

What works for one couple may or may not work for another. If she has a job that depends on "happy hour attendance" (like if it's sales somehow or something...) the rules are that both of you need to be honest with what's okay and what's NOT okay...and keep coming up with alternatives or ideas that work for both of you. YOU can not dictate to her that she "has to" never go to happy hour or change her job or whatever, but she can not dictate to you that you have to live with a spouse who behaves inappropriately or without considering you. Neither one of you can control the other. 

So for that example, each of you come up with several brainstorm options that work, present them and see if one of hers is close to one of yours. You verify you're not just "giving in to avoid the conflict" and likewise with her--you really support the arrangement. Then move to the next thing. And as a sort of "rule of thumb" if you expect it of your spouse, expect it of yourself. If you feel put out and snooped on and like you're giving up something...chances are about 100% they do too! But you can do it TOGETHER and both prove to each other that you're willing to do something tough for each other. 

No, it's not fun to be distrusted or feel like someone's watching your every move, but one thing I've learned is that sharing me, my day, where I am, who I'm with, why I'm there, etc. is part of what being intimate is.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

nice777guy said:


> OK - so is the answer that if they don't show the willingness to change, and they expect you to match any changes that you've requested tit for tat, that they probably aren't serious and none of this matters?



Balls on.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> That reminds me of something. When I first went to another forum, they told me to stop blaming my H, and start looking at myself. Nah, didn't want to; it was all his fault. Til I finally DID look at myself, and saw that I was making him just as miserable as he was making me.
> 
> So I stopped focusing on his bad side, and looked for his good side. I stopped Love Busting him. I started meeting his Emotional Needs, even if I didn't like him at the time.
> 
> ...


Well spoken


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