# The math as to why deleting texts means cheating



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Almost every cheater deletes their text messages. They say that they are doing this to save space, yet text messages take up so little space relative to the memory of any smart phone, that deleting text messages for this reason does not make any sense. Below is the math to use the next time they try to tell you that they need to delete their texts to save space.

Average text message = 160 characters = 160 bytes
Average iTune song = 7.6 MB = 7,782,400 bytes
7,782,400/160 = 48,640 average text messages in the same space of an average iTunes song.

Since years of text messaging can be stored in the same space as the average space of just a single iTune song, it is ridiculous for anyone to be deleting text messages to save space. If they are telling you that they are deleting text messages for this reason, tell them that you are not buying it. If they are texting members of the opposite sex, it is perfectly reasonable to tell them to stop deleting any text messages that they receive, and that doing so confirms that they are hiding something from you. If they feel the need to hide it from you, then it is inappropriate.


----------



## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

This post reminded me of Neil DeGrasse Tyson's 2012 tweet, regarding PBS funding:



> Cutting PBS support (0.012% of budget) to help balance the Federal budget is like deleting text files to make room on your 500Gig hard drive.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I usually delete texts. I may listen to a music file again, but there are very few texts I'll ever want to reread. Same with email. I just don't like clutter, unless it serves a purpose. It's easier to find the new stuff without the trash.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> I usually delete texts. I may listen to a music file again, but there are very few texts I'll ever want to reread. Same with email. I just don't like clutter, unless it serves a purpose. It's easier to find the new stuff without the trash.


same here.for some reason a cluttered text inbox makes me twitch.


----------



## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I dont think clearing your entire inbox means much. Noticing that a text from a number was there before but not there now, thats a different story.

Texting is how I busted my wife. I knew a number was there because I saw the text come in. She blew it off as a wrong number but when I checked a few days later, it magically was the only one to vanish.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> I usually delete texts. I may listen to a music file again, but there are very few texts I'll ever want to reread. Same with email. I just don't like clutter, unless it serves a purpose. It's easier to find the new stuff without the trash.


 I do not delete text messages and have never had an issue finding new text message as they are right on top when you open the text app. I have also found it useful to reread old text messages as it is often a good source to find useful information such as an address or phone number. 

We can agree to disagree on this point, but can we agree that if your spouse had concerns about your friendship with a member of the opposite sex, that you could agree to modify this practice to make them comfortable?


----------



## Foghorn (Sep 10, 2012)

I have a Galaxy S4. I keep all my texts, I think the app allows up to 255? in a thread before they start to autodelete from the oldest ones.

I regard them as reference. Some of them are funny. Some contain pictures. 

I am not, nor have I ever been, a cheating spouse.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Every blue moon I will clean all mine out. But it's more because most of them are stupid texts like "MM OK" Or " You are silly" or something else ridiculous and I am a phone geek and gadget geek so clearing them out frees up the memory on my phone of which I need a LOT of.

Also, I am single. So no reason for it to be shady anyway.


----------



## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

Well..... I have no problem with deleting texts, I have a problem with quickly deleting texts when I say " Can I see your phone?".


----------



## Foghorn (Sep 10, 2012)

That's right Joe. 

(non cheating script)

"Honey, can I have your phone? I need to look something up."

"Sure, here you go."

(cheating script)

"Hey can I see your phone real quick? Like right now?"

*scrabbles frantically to get phone out of purse*
*swipes open and jabs buttons*
*breathes into paper bag while doing factory reset*

"Sure, heh heh, no problem, here you go."


----------



## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

If a your inbox is almost full is it a sign that your mind is also? If that is the case, what does an empty inbox indicate?


----------



## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Deleting texts doesn't mean cheating, deleting anything they know would upset you because they shouldn't be getting or sending those kind of texts is
As I have told my kids don't send anything or be in a position to receive anything you wouldn't be able to show your grandmother, if you can't show her then it is wrong.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

love=pain said:


> As I have told my kids don't send anything or be in a position to receive anything you wouldn't be able to show your grandmother, if you can't show her then it is wrong.


uh oh. LOL My husband and I should be ashamed of ourselves then. 

Although,remembering my grandma,she may have given our sexy texts a thumbs up:smthumbup:


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

I delete texts off my phone. I have a shared family plan with my wife she is more than welcome to check the account.
Everyone who deletes their internet history a cheater also?


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

I delete texts from my phone all the time. From my wife, from my children ... from various auto-texts I receive. I just don't like a cluttered text "inbox" and it has nothing to do with opening up space.


----------



## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> uh oh. LOL My husband and I should be ashamed of ourselves then.
> 
> Although,remembering my grandma,she may have given our sexy texts a thumbs up:smthumbup:


HAHA great reply yeah don't know if my wife's mom would want to see some of our stuff either.
I try to use the grandmom thing for them a lot whether it's texts, language or behavior just to help them understand everything they do should be at a high standard, like all kids their respect for us the parents gets challenged at times but if you disrespect your grandma well that's a mortal sin.


----------



## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

richie33 said:


> I delete texts off my phone. I have a shared family plan with my wife she is more than welcome to check the account.
> Everyone who deletes their internet history a cheater also?


Nope but if you delete things to hide them from your SO in regards to inappropriate contact with someone outside of your relationship
then absolutely.
Besides haven't you heard of private browsing?


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

love=pain said:


> HAHA great reply yeah don't know if my wife's mom would want to see some of our stuff either.
> I try to use the grandmom thing for them a lot whether it's texts, language or behavior just to help them understand everything they do should be at a high standard, like all kids their respect for us the parents gets challenged at times but if you disrespect your grandma well that's a mortal sin.


I like that actually It's a good moral compass to show to your kids.Well,unless grandma was a cigar smokin gin guzzling gambler,but even then,she could still be a stellar person with great relationship morals  So still a total win as role models are concerned!


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I wouldn't say that deleting texts automatically means cheating, because people delete texts for various reasons stated in this thread. However, I do see it as a red flag *when combined* with other suspicious behavior.

When the red flags (clues) started adding up, then its reasonable to make an assumption that there is a possibility of cheating going on.


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

love=pain said:


> Nope but if you delete things to hide them from your SO in regards to inappropriate contact with someone outside of your relationship
> then absolutely.
> Besides haven't you heard of private browsing?


That's why my phone is always left out and there is no passwords. If I want to delete old texts I don't need permission.
If a person was using private browser it would not matter if they delete their history. But I refuse to believe most people who do this are cheaters.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TRy said:


> I do not delete text messages and have never had an issue finding new text message as they are right on top when you open the text app. I have also found it useful to reread old text messages as it is often a good source to find useful information such as an address or phone number.
> 
> We can agree to disagree on this point, but can we agree that if your spouse had concerns about your friendship with a member of the opposite sex, that *you could agree to modify this practice to make them comfortable*?


Yes, we'd do that. We share one phone between us, so it would be hard to hide anything if we wanted to. We also have an open marriage, so it's also possible we'll get a message from a lover setting up a meeting. Having no secrets means we can confirm for each other as needed.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

richie33 said:


> If a person was using private browser it would not matter if they delete their history. But I refuse to believe most people who do this are cheaters.


It is like the old comparisons such as all Doberman Pinschers are dogs, but not all dogs are Doberman Pinschers.

Not all who delete/hide are cheaters, but all cheater's delete/ hide.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> If a your inbox is almost full is it a sign that your mind is also? If that is the case, what does an empty inbox indicate?


:rofl:


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

So what does it mean if they throw their entire phone into a garbage bin and get a totally new number? 

My husband did that but he did it after I found out what he was doing and I'd kicked him out. I never even laid eyes on his secret cell phone. Didn't want to either.

He was deleting emails, not texts - the same can be said about deleting emails. But like LM said, it's only a red flag when combined with other red flags.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> Yes, we'd do that. We share one phone between us, so it would be hard to hide anything if we wanted to. We also have an open marriage, so it's also possible we'll get a message from a lover setting up a meeting. Having no secrets means we can confirm for each other as needed.


 Am I the only one that finds it funny that the first person in this thread to defend the deleting of text messages, has an "open marriage" where they state the it is "possible we'll get a message from a lover setting up a meeting". How about if I changed the title to "The math as to why deleting texts means they may have a lover"?


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Squeakr said:


> It is like the old comparisons such as all Doberman Pinschers are dogs, but not all dogs are Doberman Pinschers.
> 
> Not all who delete/hide are cheaters, but all cheater's delete/ hide.


 If I could change the title, I would change it to "The math as to why deleting texts means they may have a lover". The title aside, the actual body of my opening post is accurate.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TRy said:


> Am I the only one that finds it funny that the first person in this thread to defend the deleting of text messages, has an "open marriage" where they state the it is "possible we'll get a message from a lover setting up a meeting". How about if I changed the title to "The math as to why deleting texts means they may have a lover"?


You could, but it wouldn't apply to me. The upside of honesty and transparency is trust, and that includes trusting each other to not hide anything of relevance to each other. As I said, we delete to reduce clutter, just like we throw out junk mail.

Sure, if you have something to hide, you'll delete, but the vast majority of people have nothing to hide AND still delete.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

My saving of all of my texts helped me put together a very clear picture of what was going on when my H began his EA.

He deleted all of his texts bur didn't know I had access to them via my IPad.

So when he texted he was working late on X for an hour I was able to take that old text and put it together with phone records showing the cell tower (in additional call details in my Verizon bill) her cell tower and the length of the call.

I had a crazy detailed calendar if the lies. That in addition to the VAR most times I got both sides of the convo thanks to his in car Bluetooth. 

I usually clear my texts from time to time but for some reason never deleted H's so I had over a year. 

I think if you are a cheater you take extra measures to clean up your tracks. When there is a will there is a way. But my gut hasn't steered me wrong. If I sense something is off look out.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

richie33 said:


> I delete texts off my phone. I have a shared family plan with my wife she is more than welcome to check the account.
> Everyone who deletes their internet history a cheater also?



No of course not if they do after each browsing session and are exhibiting other suspect behavior, different story.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> The upside of honesty and transparency is trust, and that includes trusting each other to not hide anything of relevance to each other.


 First, since you have an open marriage, I stated that I would change the title if I could since in an open marraige having a lover is not cheating. That being said, I would think that even in an open marriage letting your spouse read text messages from your lover would be relevant to being transparent.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TRy said:


> First, since you have an open marriage, I stated that I would change the title if I could since in an open marraige having a lover is not cheating. That being said, I would think that *even in an open marriage letting your spouse read text messages from your lover would be relevant to being transparent*.


Agreed. Those aren't "junk" messages, and aren't deleted until well afterwards. An open marriage may be much less susceptible to cheating, but it can still happen, and I've occasionally heard of situations where it has. There are rules and boundaries that we've agreed upon, and if they aren't respected, it would be cheating, with all the same issues and consequences anyone else here would face. There's just so very little reason to cheat when you have almost complete freedom to begin with.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> There's just so very little reason to cheat when you have almost complete freedom to begin with.


Except when the love has been lost and given fully and completely to another.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> Except when the love has been lost and given fully and completely to another.


That's a risk in any relationship. We've also been in a poly relationship, so find it possible and natural to love more than one person in some circumstances. We're each other's ideal match, so we're not really worried about that (losing to another) happening. And, we're of the view that if either of us would truly be happier with someone else, we should pursue that (being fully aware that a temporary infatuation is unlikely to last). The risks are known, pretty minimal, and acceptable to us. We are very careful in selecting a partner, and changing one is a rare event - we tend to keep a compatible and trusted partner as long as it's working and not interfering with our relationship with each other.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*A friend of mine that I officiate with who is in upper level management with a cell phone company informed me that if anyone needs a copy of a text for legal purposes in court or in the discovery phase; and they have the right to that information, i.e. say that they're on the same joint cell phone account ~ and greatly provided that they can show relevance to the satisfaction of the Court, then they can petition the Court to issue a court order to the cell phone provider that the company would then be compelled to provide copies of the requested texts.

Basically, the cell phone carriers are compelled to maintain those records for national security purposes for a certain number of years. Just because the sender chooses to erase those messages from their own cell phones doesn't mean that they disappear from the cell phone provider archives.

And while it's an expensive proposition for the proponent, it is certainly doable!*


----------



## Kaya62003 (Jan 8, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I usually delete texts. I may listen to a music file again, but there are very few texts I'll ever want to reread. Same with email. I just don't like clutter, unless it serves a purpose. It's easier to find the new stuff without the trash.


I agree! It's a tad premature to assume that someone is cheating and/or hiding something because they delete their texts. That said, I think it can indicate deception. I don't delete texts. So anyone who knows me, knows that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

My SIL only deleted the inappropriate texts. My BIL said the conversations didn't make sense because chunks were missing and that's what made him finally realize something was going on with a married coworker. 

I don't know why she thought that was good idea. Kind of stupid I think.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

TRy specifically said cheaters, gave a specific scenario and people still found a way to disagree. This is why I like TAM, weirdness always leads to interesting discussions.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> TRy specifically said cheaters, gave a specific scenario and people still found a way to disagree. This is why I like TAM, weirdness always leads to interesting discussions.


I enjoy that as well, I don't need to go to the corner bar and hope something weird and/or interesting happens.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

I would have never noticed what my H was doing with his cell or computer had he not set all of my internal alarms off.

This is "normally" not a private guy. And I was not at all a snoop. Suddenly things just shifted. Things were bad in or marriage, but we weren't talking divorce or anything close. 

At first I was hanging his shirts up after the cleaners dropped them off. I noticed his shelving in his closet was oddly devoid of things that would normally be there. Receipts from the past week notes/lists for the week normally kept on his shelf where his watches and things go.

Then I went to grab an Advil out of his drawer in his nightstand, again oddly just "too neat" I walked around and I just knew. I knew I had to look. He is highly organized and tidy but this was beyond. It was like he had left and left things behind so I wouldn't notice. I can't describe it. Just very unsettling.

Then him saying he was buying a new cell phone because his battery was not holding a charge and he was due for an upgrade. I had commented, "you only ever call me for 2 minutes max and you have a company phone". 

All of the sudden that phone was glued to his side. I remember commenting. Odd that you need to go outside to get a signal, I've got the same phone and carrier I get my calls...I could go on and on.

I manage professional rock musicians for a living. I thought I was well schooled in the ways of cheaters and super-cheaters. 


So after that long winded vent/rant. I view it all through a different set of eyes now. If he wants privacy he can have it but he can't be married to me. If my gut starts telling me something's up, I'll believe it before him. Sad, but that is where I am.


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Wow, I delete texts and I have nobody to cheat on!
What does that say about me....
I better set up my surveillance camera so that I can see what I'm up to. 

Hate clutter, will keep relevant texts but otherwise not. Am vicious when cleaning up contacts, photos and emails as well. 

If I do need to keep something it goes on USB drive, external hard drive in safe, and emailed to myself and stored in a subfolder or inbox.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Wow, I delete texts and I have nobody to cheat on!
> What does that say about me....
> I better set up my surveillance camera so that I can see what I'm up to.
> 
> ...



I hate clutter also. I keep running texts from two very funny friends and a few clients (for reference that's easy to get to). I don't think of them as clutter because they aren't paper. And the click of a button it's gone.


----------



## WayUpNorth (Dec 14, 2013)

GF's phone is receiving texts constantly. She deletes many of them. Sometimes I wonder.....


----------



## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

TRy said:


> Almost every cheater deletes their text messages. They say that they are doing this to save space, yet text messages take up so little space relative to the memory of any smart phone, that deleting text messages for this reason does not make any sense. Below is the math to use the next time they try to tell you that they need to delete their texts to save space.
> 
> Average text message = 160 characters = 160 bytes
> Average iTune song = 7.6 MB = 7,782,400 bytes
> ...


That's just because that cheater is a idiot for actually txting. Download many of the voip apps install when you leave the house and install when you come back. Doesn't show on your bill done!

Then with apps like Glide, social media, burner apps, fake proxy, etc etc unless there is spyware on the phone it's almost impossible to get caught, but then again you have to have a brain and since many cheaters have found their "Soul mate" well they are void of congnitive thought much of the time.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Hi Try,

Deleting texts doesn't mean someone is cheating. I delete texts often and I'm not cheating since I consider it untidy having a plethora of superfluous and inane texts on my phone.

Then there is the fact I seldom respond to texts I receive since I find texting to be quite the chore with my Nokia phone that won't die. Fortunately my lovely wife will often send text responses for me on my phone as required.

I have no idea nor care if my lovely wife deletes messages from her phone. I have access to her phone yet have felt no inclination to check up on her.

If I cannot trust my love, who I have been with for almost 18 years and have kids with, and enjoy a great sex life with, plus all the trappings of a comfortable middle aged life, I wouldn't be with her.

Here's another thing that doesn't prove infidelity I almost never wear my wedding ring since my lovely wife and I got married almost 15 years ago, I just don't like wearing any jewellery, since it just feels uncomfortable to wear. My lovely wife usually wears her wedding ring most of the time yet not always.

When she doesn't wear it I am not perturbed by her actions nor feel any insecurity over it. She's not worried I don't wear my ring she accepts it, as that's just the way I am.

I have been completely faithful to my wife from our very fist date. It's funny though, one Japanese women I knew who was a housemate of mine for a little while, was surprised when I turned down having sex with her. She even asked if I was gay which considering my history I found rather funny. So I had to tell her that although I was flattered by her interest and thought she was very attractive. I was in a relationship with the woman who eventually became my now lovely wife, who I've enjoyed having sex with since our second date.

When I was young, I had been married once before unfortunately we had our problems, which eventually saw my first wife cheat on me while I was away doing a training course when I was in the Army. What she did was absolutely devastating to me. She confessed as soon as I returned home and sought forgiveness from me (we were both very high drive sexually and very highly sexed while both young).

At the time I was not inclined to forgive nor forget so our relationship ended when I left her which subsequently saw us divorce. I wasn't going to waste my life being miserable in a toxic relationship that would hurt all involved, with one I could no longer trust. Unfortunately we had a daughter as well which made it all particularly messy. Yet things have moved on for all of us and I am happy as well so all is good.

I feel honesty is important and essential for a successful relationship so I have always been completely up front with my sexual partners about my "sordid" past and my considerable sexual experiences and relationships with many women along the way.

So I know what infidelity is and despite having a number of offers from women over the years I have never cheated on my lovely wife despite having the opportunity. As far as I am concerned morally one should never cheat on their partner and should likewise trust their partner until something happens that proves they are unworthy of that trust.

Best...


----------



## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I dont care if you defrag the hard drive to free up space, but when you are shoving a screwdriver through it, its cause for alarm....


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

OhGeesh said:


> That's just because that cheater is a idiot for actually txting. Download many of the voip apps install when you leave the house and install when you come back. Doesn't show on your bill done!
> 
> Then with apps like Glide, social media, burner apps, fake proxy, etc etc unless there is spyware on the phone it's almost impossible to get caught, but then again you have to have a brain and since many cheaters have found their "Soul mate" well they are void of congnitive thought much of the time.



Where there is a will there is a way...it's been said many times here. Eventually they slip up, give themselves away. It was scary how on target my gut was. Like I said I'll never ignore it again .


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MissFroggie said:


> So you had a FIST date (that sounds...interesting) and then you slept with her on the second.
> 
> Yes I am deliberately taking your very articulate and well composed post out of context...because you totally missed what the OP was saying. He never stated that if you delete texts you are a cheating. He said that when someone gives you the excuse that they are deleting certain texts (ones you would like to see but won't allow you to) to free up space this is a perfectly reasoned response you can give them...the maths behind that 'logic'. The fact is that many cheats will delete incriminating texts, it does not follow that someone who deletes texts is a cheat. All greyhounds are dogs but not all dogs are greyhounds...the context the OP was referring to was very clear, sadly there seem to be a lot of people on TAM who choose not to read posts in context.
> 
> Just in case you didn't see the original post I've added it here, highlighted so you can see clearly the OP made no such allegation!


 :iagree::iagree::iagree: What she said. I was busy today and did not have a chance to respond, but after reading the above post, I see that I do not have to. Thanks.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I kept trying to figure out how everyone could keep using logical fallacies when responding to TRy's post. All of the responses of "I'm not a cheater, I do delete to save space" makes sense now.


> The math as to why deleting texts means cheating


Yes, this sounds like an accusation of text deletion makes people cheaters. You skim, see an explanation of how little space it takes and "bam" posters think he is saying "delete=cheat."

To me, this is a great view of how people skim, skip or just respond to thread titles.


----------



## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I dont care if you defrag the hard drive to free up space, but when you are shoving a screwdriver through it, its cause for alarm....


LOL...yeah, that would in most cases throw up a little red flag, huh?


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Ugh , the ultra selective text deletion (I got the excuse that it made his brand new phone act up if he didn't). The dead giveaway (I already knew something was up)he was driving in NYC going to SoHo, the gps on the car was acting up so I reached for his phone and asked for the password. He gave me a "why?" The response was hilarious to me. He gave it to me but practically crashed the car watching me hold his phone in my hand.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

kristin2349 said:


> Ugh , the ultra selective text deletion (I got the excuse that it made his brand new phone act up if he didn't).


 LOL, does he think that this made sense in any reality? It is really amazing what cheaters expect you to beleive, just because they say it with a straight face. 

I just Google "text messages make my phone act up" and "deleting text messages made my phone stop acting up" and found that there were no such issue reported before by any of the 100s of millions of people that use smart phones. I am the type of person that would Google the problem right in front of him and call him out on it.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

TRy said:


> LOL, does he think that this made sense in any reality? It is really amazing what cheaters expect you to beleive, just because they say it with a straight face.
> 
> I just Google "text messages make my phone act up" and "deleting text messages made my phone stop acting up" and found that there were no such issue reported before by any of the 100s of millions of people that use smart phones. I am the type of person that would Google the problem right in front of him and call him out on it.


I know! For a very smart man he was acting so stupid and obvious. It was probably making the GPS on the car act up too, lol. I caught it in the EA phase. You should have seen his face when I confronted and said (I have your old phone, texts from iMessage from the new phone, copies of the phone records along with your calendar and I paid for a background check on her and have spoken to her fiancé). If it weren't so painful and raw it would make me laugh like crazy. I managed to stay oddly calm which probably just added to his confusion.

As soon as I got her info and the day I decided to confront and contact her fiancé (I was mailing a copy of the records I just decided to try calling him) they broke up, we are in R but less than a year in to this so things are still touchy.


----------

