# WS Breakdown



## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

I'm not sure if we are progressing or unraveling at this point anymore...

I've had doubts for a long time and I do realize I've been less than committed to R, but having an insane OW poking around in my business certainly isn't helping. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't get rid of all of the info about me or my life online because of what I do. That said, I'm sick of searching my online profiles (many of which I have no control over) to see if she's put any info about me out there.

Anyway, I lost it a couple days ago and told my H that I don't want this life, I never signed up for it and I'm sick and tried of dealing with it all. Low point in the rollercoaster is what I was thinking. I will ride it out.

Instead my H comes to me yesterday and tells me that he can see I'm tearing myself part with indecision, that I look at him with disgust or with a far away look when we make love, and that he believes I am doing the "right thing" by staying because I always do the right thing in life. So he's going to make the decision for me and move out. He said someday I will thank him because I really do deserve better and he has ruined us forever. He also said I will never again trust him or look at him in the same way and this is the best thing for me. He says this all with no emotion. Like a cold robot.

I snap. Actually, that is an understatement. I called him a coward, a failure, a loser and a multitude of other colourful names. It was not pretty. I can't even remember half of what I said because I was so enraged. I have told him time and time again that his "bailing" on us when our marriage got hard was one of my biggest issues with him and so he pulls this?! Finally after my meltdown, I scream that he made this big ?%$#@# mess and he damn well better fix it because the kids and I don't deserve a coward for a husband and father who runs away when life gets hard.

His response, "Okay, fine. I will stay but you deserve better than me."

:wtf:

I told him not to do me any favours.

A couple hours later, he sends me a long apology letter in which he details every single thing he is sorry for...

For lying to me, the kids, family and friends.
For being with someone else that was so unworthy.
For every second he was with her that he could have been with me or the kids.
For ruining the trust.
For ruining the specialness between us.
For breaking his vows.
For avoiding conflict.
For being selfish, mean, entitled, spoiled and having poor character.
For stealing my choices.
For not respecting me.
For threatening divorce.
And so on...

The list was about 50 plus items.

Later that night, he comes to me and grabs me in his arms and starts holding me so tightly it almost hurts and he won't let go and starts sobbing uncontrollably and saying he's so sorry. Over and over he apologizes and he won't let go. He keeps pulling me closer and tighter.

He tells me he thinks I will leave him someday anyway but that he doesn't want anyone else, never did but is so distraught over ruining us that he sometimes doesn't want to wake up.

So the compassionate part of me thinks that maybe he's completely digested how horrible this all is and he's depressed and frustrated and in pain. The paranoid BS in me thinks he's feeling guilty because he doesn't want to do the heavy lifting and sees my doubts and vacillation as his excuse to escape.

Today, he is in a meeting and texting me constantly about how much he misses me, loves me, how sad he is for how much he's hurt me and can't wait to hold me tonight. 

I'm all over the place. Emotionally and physically exhausted and so frustrated by this whole mess. Why couldn't he just talk to me before it got to an affair?


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

It sounds like he is very remorsful and wants to really fix things. The question is where are you about R you both have to be totaly committed or move on.

Are you both in MC? How long? How are you dealing with your anger?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Sometimes, the WS goes thru their own emotional roller coaster during R.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

mahike, yes it sounds like he's remorseful but one thing he did in our marriage that made me withdraw was threaten divorce far too many times over the years. Even before the affair SO he knows it's a huge issue for me. I've told him so many times that I never felt safe or valued.

Not in MC. Ours her left her practice to write a book. I've looked around online but haven't called anyone and he's not making an effort to find a new one.

As for my anger, not dealing with it very well because I feel he's not doing some of the things he should be doing. Yes, he's spending time with me, yes he apologizes and he's sweet but he doesn't read anything unless I give it to him. He's never taken the reins in R so to speak.

lordmayhem, I understand but if he really doesn't want to do what it takes to make me feel safe then he probably should just leave, I suppose. I think in some respects, he's right. I worry about the kids and hurting them more than anything. He's flaky. He always has been and I've had no sense of security over the course of our M. Even now, I'm wondering, when will he threaten to bail again. Not that he actually leaves. That's not the issue. It's the always expecting me to be strong, to fix things, to buy the books, to do the work, while he enjoys the sex and attention. Even the letter, I told him I wanted a letter 6 months ago. Something I could refer back to during bad days, well the first letter was two paragraphs and lame and he put it off for months.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Zanna:

IMO, it is good that he is showing remorse. Perhaps the reality of the damage he causee has finally hit him. 

I can't read his mind, and I agree that threatening divorce and putting a time line on recovery is very damaging. 

But, and the big but in your case is that he seems to be finally turning that ship around head on into the rough seas he caused. 

If that lasts, that's good. I guess you need to wait and see if it lasts. 

With that said, I also understand your position. It is frustrating to have the cheater dictate timelines and how you should react, or to predict what you will do. 

Yes. IMO, cheaters are cowards. They are passive aggressive. 

All the things you speak of could have been fixed with better communication and/or counseling. 

It's so sad. 

Alas, we live in a society in which every movie and TV show endorses having an affair, makes it seem exciting, and common, and rarely shows the devastation to the BS. 

We also live in a culture in which too many MCs and psychiatrists make excuses for the cheater. 

What is the excuse really as opposed to other viable options.

I will climb down from my soap box now.

But, IMO, you need to see if his remorse lasts. 

Maybe he has seen the light.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Zanna said:


> times that I never felt safe or valued
> 
> It's the always expecting me to be strong, to fix things, to buy the books, to do the work, while he enjoys the sex and attention. Even the letter, I told him I wanted a letter 6 months ago. Something I could refer back to during bad days, well the first letter was two paragraphs and lame and he put it off for months.


I hear ya'. sigh

Sounds like my STBEH. It was like he was two years old and his dad used to talk to him always in a high pitched voice like you would talk to a kindergartner, even though he is in his 50s


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Here is a post that you should print off and study with your husband. It has truly helped a lot of people and I haven't seen it posted lately.

Remember, your husband (man) doesn't/can't think like you, that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't want things to work. I often feel like men and women's communiction problems are literally based on our physical diffferences but I digress.LOL

Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly!


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Zanna:
> 
> IMO, it is good that he is showing remorse. Perhaps the reality of the damage he causee has finally hit him.
> 
> ...


I do think he is remorseful but I'm still stuck. I think it's partially due to the problems we had prior and how I still see them as an issue.

I've been frustrated by my H's passive aggressiveness for years. Even when we went to MC 10 years ago and the MC told him he was passive aggressive, he denied. As he was trying to extract himself from the A, he bought a book on Passive Aggression and finally admitted he had a problem. Great. So all these years of pain and frustration and then he has an A and finally he admits it? He even admitted the A was partially due to revenge, a classic PA tactic.

I don't know. Maybe I just have too much resentment at this point...

But yes, the coward thing also rings true. Sadly, I read the stories on TAM and so many cheaters have such similar personality traits as do the BS. In general the BS seem like they're the fixers, the ones who are open to learning, to growth but the WS is just in pursuit of happiness and feeling good at any price.

It's so frustrating.

As for the TV movies and TV shows portraying affairs, oh how I know all about that oh too well. Been there, done that and have my name in the credits. :rofl:


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

chapparal - He's read that and printed it off. Doesn't seem to stop him from wanting to throw in the towel because I say things out of frustration though. 

One thing I did do differently the other night was tell him if he wanted to move out, we were telling the kids and our families immediately because I was done with his threats. Suddenly he needed time to think. I said your days of "thinking" are over, Buddy. You want a divorce, you got it.

At this rate, it's the crazy making behaviour and flakiness that's going to push me out the door. I'm triggered because he was the one who got involved with a wingnut, not me and I don't think it's too much to ask for him to support me without making my "decisions" for me.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Zanna said:


> chapparal - He's read that and printed it off. Doesn't seem to stop him from wanting to throw in the towel because I say things out of frustration though.
> 
> One thing I did do differently the other night was tell him if he wanted to move out, we were telling the kids and our families immediately because I was done with his threats. Suddenly he needed time to think. I said your days of "thinking" are over, Buddy. You want a divorce, you got it.
> 
> At this rate, it's the crazy making behaviour and flakiness that's going to push me out the door. I'm triggered because he was the one who got involved with a wingnut, not me and I don't think it's too much to ask for him to support me without making my "decisions" for me.


The OW in my case is a wingnut, too. She stalked him and me before he and she ever talked. 

She is still stalking me and she can have him now 

I understand about hating the passive aggressive trait and fearing it. 

That is one reason I filed for D. 

My STBEH also said he had the affair because he was angry at me for this or that minor issue. 

Well, how come he never said a word about it. He told the OW all his complaints about me, every personal detail. Why couldn't he tell me?

How come he didn't take me up on offers to see a counselor. 

instead he had an affair. 

One thing he said to me during or false R was he was glad he had the affair because it improve our marriage for him. 

Well yeah, but what about me. Like you said I am the one doing all the work. It was like I rewarded him for his affair. 

I had to file when I realized that.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I don't know if you read Cheatinghubby's last thread but he mentioned that if he could do it all again, he wished his wife never took him back so that she'd never live with the pain of his actions and she could've found someone else who wouldn't have hurt her like he did. I think that's what your husband is hinting at, I don't think it's cowardice.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> Later that night, he comes to me and grabs me in his arms and starts holding me so tightly it almost hurts and he won't let go and starts sobbing uncontrollably and saying he's so sorry. Over and over he apologizes and he won't let go. He keeps pulling me closer and tighter.


Oh, Jesus. Oh. That's triggered me. When I read that, I actually started to hyperventilate and I felt light headed and giddy. I am crying (quietly, I do not want to worry my wife) here in my study.

Why? Because that's what I remember doing when I confessed to my wife about my stupid, idiotic revenge affair. I was sobbing,apologising to her and clinging to her.

I hope you and he and your children can make it, I really do. 

Phew. Sorry. Didn't mean to hijack your thread.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Zanna I am not sure what I would have done without our MC. I went the first four visits by myself. She asked after each visit how it went and what did we talk about.

At first all we talked about was my anger with her and that POS. Without the C I am sure I would have done. I was very angry

I suspect my wife ended up going because she wanted to defend herself tell her side. At this point she was still doing some blame shifting. Our MC a woman told her we would talk about marriage issues after we worked through the affair and that she took ownership of what she had done.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Zanna,
It does sound like he had an epiphany of sorts but now he has to do all the heavy lifting.
What is he DOING to prove his remorse. What are his ACTIONS telling you? Words mean nothing, we all know how the words and lies of our WSs have hurt us, he now needs to show you by his actions that he really wants this marriage to work.
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

mahike said:


> Our MC a woman told her we would talk about marriage issues after we worked through the affair and that she took ownership of what she had done.


Why can't all MC's follow that script?


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> The OW in my case is a wingnut, too. She stalked him and me before he and she ever talked.
> 
> She is still stalking me and she can have him now
> 
> ...


I think having OW poke around is really triggering me so I get that part all too well, Sara. 

Not only is the woman unattractive but she's so pathetic. A man tells her he doesn't want her, that he doesn't love her and she actually says she's going to destroy his family if he won't be with her. How can someone be that evil and dysfunctional? How could my H throw away everything for THAT? The unfairness of it all is wearing on me every single day.

Even my oldest daughter says she can't believe that her own father would cheat on her mother with such a dirtbag and she thinks I should leave him. It's like some huge cosmic joke. My H put no value in anything about me for so long and I'm angry as hell. My daughter is very angry too. She still refuses to talk to him about any of this even though he's tried to reach out to her. I've tried to talk to her and she said she's just so angry that he turned our lives into a soap opera and that OW is such a crazy, disgusting piece of trash. She's also angry that her own father told a psycho all of our names. This whole mess is wearing me out. I'm hurting and my little girl is hurting.

He admits to the Passive Aggression now that he's damaged all of us. All of this because he was angry at me. His kids got taken down in his grand plan for revenge. It's so sick!

I don't know what to do. I don't want to hurt my kids but I don't want to spend the rest of my life being so angry. I do love him and he has lots of great qualities but I'm so profoundly disappointed in him that I'm not sure I am one of those people who can handle R after a PA. It might just be too much for me.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Complexity said:


> I don't know if you read Cheatinghubby's last thread but he mentioned that if he could do it all again, he wished his wife never took him back so that she'd never live with the pain of his actions and she could've found someone else who wouldn't have hurt her like he did. I think that's what your husband is hinting at, I don't think it's cowardice.


No, I haven't but I will.

I guess if "bailing" and "running" and avoiding conflict weren't his issues, I'd be more sure...

But I understand what you're saying. I will think about that...


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

Zanna, I can relate to what you're saying. I don't want to be negative, and you can never be sure of what your CH's intent is. He could be genuine, but he could be selling you what you want to hear.

It worries me that he said he would leave, because it was the best thing for you. To me, he's saying "this is too hard, because you won't just get over it, but I'm going to dump the blame for separating on you". That fact that you're having to do all the work: research and reading on how to rebuild a busted marriage (that he destroyed) speaks volumes.

I think we all know genuine remorse when we see it. And it sounds to me like your not quite getting the full package.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Oh, Jesus. Oh. That's triggered me. When I read that, I actually started to hyperventilate and I felt light headed and giddy. I am crying (quietly, I do not want to worry my wife) here in my study.
> 
> Why? Because that's what I remember doing when I confessed to my wife about my stupid, idiotic revenge affair. I was sobbing,apologising to her and clinging to her.
> 
> ...


Oh MattMatt, that's okay. Hijack away. I'm sorry that triggered you.

Thanks for your good wishes. Oh, how I wish I could go back in time and make this all go away. My H said he can't even believe what he was thinking when he got involved with such a fool. I don't want to lose my family but it feels like I already did and I'm holding onto something that is dead.

I'm so mixed up.

And trying to face that maybe I CANNOT get over a PA.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Vegemite said:


> Zanna, I can relate to what you're saying. I don't want to be negative, and you can never be sure of what your CH's intent is. He could be genuine, but he could be selling you what you want to hear.
> 
> It worries me that he said he would leave, because it was the best thing for you. To me, he's saying "this is too hard, because you won't just get over it, but I'm going to dump the blame for separating on you". That fact that you're having to do all the work: research and reading on how to rebuild a busted marriage (that he destroyed) speaks volumes.
> 
> I think we all know genuine remorse when we see it. And it sounds to me like your not quite getting the full package.


Yes, that is what I am trying to decipher. WHAT is missing? Is he really truly scared to lose me? Does he want to do what's best for me? Or is it just easier to run away and wrap it up all nicely and say he's doing it for me? 

Deep down, I don't believe he actually wants to leave and never really did (which is what he claims as well) but for some reason, there is still a disconnect. I'm not quite sure if he thinks I will never leave because of the kids or if he truly and deeply cares if I do or not...:scratchhead: 

He claims he's spending lots of time with me, taking me on dates, telling me how much he loves me and adores me....all of which is true, but why do I have to get angry and demand that he read a book for him to do it? He should be jumping through hoops. He should be grateful that trashy OW wasn't his big prize. 

Oh, sure he makes an effort when I get upset, but why does he wait until I get upset? This is what I know is triggering my anger. He thinks he's being so sweet by being there and I need more...

And of course today, he is showering me with love via text and has already called to say he is on his way home promising me all sorts of attention and affection tonight.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Zanna,

It sounds like your H is a serious conflict avoider. He may be trying to change but without counseling its going to be next to impossible. I would strongly suggest counseling for both of you and probably MC as well unless you have decided to move on from the relationship.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

daisygirl 41 said:


> Zanna,
> It does sound like he had an epiphany of sorts but now he has to do all the heavy lifting.
> What is he DOING to prove his remorse. What are his ACTIONS telling you? Words mean nothing, we all know how the words and lies of our WSs have hurt us, he now needs to show you by his actions that he really wants this marriage to work.
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I get upset, he will read books on affairs and articles on helping your spouse heal. He claims he has Googled stuff on his own but he's never brought anything to my attention.

He arranges dates. He spends time with me daily. Tells me often that he loves me and is extremely affectionate. He's taken me away for the weekend. He apologizes often. This would all be amazing if it wasn't for the stupid A hanging over my head and the reminder of the OW poking around in my business. I can't stop her from visiting my website or looking at my photos online (she's not actually contacting me anymore since the C&D) but her obsession with me is triggering me like crazy. 

The sad thing is we are more connected in many ways but with some honest conversation and the books we've read, we could have gotten to this point prior to the A but my H always expected me to take the lead when it came to our marriage and its problems. Just once, I'd like him to be like the men I read about on these forums and others and actually be a leader and be a strong man and father. I'm losing respect. Yes, affection and sex are all nice but he gets a payoff for all that...it feels good. It's the hard stuff that he resists because there's nothing in it for him. Or so he thinks.



mahike said:


> Zanna I am not sure what I would have done without our MC. I went the first four visits by myself. She asked after each visit how it went and what did we talk about.
> 
> At first all we talked about was my anger with her and that POS. Without the C I am sure I would have done. I was very angry
> 
> I suspect my wife ended up going because she wanted to defend herself tell her side. At this point she was still doing some blame shifting. Our MC a woman told her we would talk about marriage issues after we worked through the affair and that she took ownership of what she had done.


I think we need an MC like this but he should be thinking about stuff like this. If it wasn't for me, I feel like he'd do nothing and our M would fall apart and he'd just go on with life.

Or maybe I have spent so much time doing all the work, it allows him to be lazy.

However, I backed off and withdrew and the idiot had an affair with a freakshow so that's what happens when I sit back and expect him to act like an equal partner.


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

Zanna said:


> :
> 
> He claims he's spending lots of time with me, taking me on dates, telling me how much he loves me and adores me....all of which is true, but why do I have to get angry and demand that he read a book for him to do it? He should be jumping through hoops. He should be grateful that trashy OW wasn't his big prize.
> 
> ...


Again, I can relate to what you say so much. I'm still with my CW at 2 years now. It was awful for the first 18 months because I fought with her about the A and I knew she was lying about details. But she is the almost perfect wife now. Far better than any time previous in our 20 years together.

Like your CH, I have to force her to read anything I research. She has done nothing on her own. I gave her that article posted by Chapparal (thanks Chap!) along with 2 other similar articles about what a WS should do to fix things after their affair. That was a few weeks back. She read them. Agreed that she has made a lot of bad decisions. But no follow up.

It just doesn't make you feel cofident with moving forward with R. I freely admit I'm in Limbo. Like you said, I don't think I'm the sort of person who will ever really fully recover enough from the PA to successfully R. Having said that, it isn't that easy break free.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> Zanna,
> 
> It sounds like your H is a serious conflict avoider. He may be trying to change but without counseling its going to be next to impossible. I would strongly suggest counseling for both of you and probably MC as well unless you have decided to move on from the relationship.


Yes, you nailed it. He gets this now. Now that it's damaged us all unfortunately.

In his apology letter, he said this:
_
"I'm sorry that my avoidance of conflict and not really digging into issues prevented us from getting to the real truth of the issues in our relationship that could have been fixed. In addition, the blame I directed toward you was certainly misguided and I should have taken a closer look at myself and my contribution to the state of our marriage. Rest assured, I will never cheat on you again."_

As for counseling, he said he will go to MC but not IC. He claims he doesn't need a counselor to tell him not to cheat on his wife as that is a choice he could never ever make again after seeing me and his children in so much pain.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

No, he needs a counselor to find out why he has trouble "really digging into the issues" and why he trends toward an "avoidance of conflict." His own words demonstrate that he really knows he needs to fix these issues but his pride will not allow it. Not cheating again is a good first step and obviously a deal breaker if he does but his recent actions prove that the other main issue, his constant running away, remains. Unless he tackles that you won't feel safe in the relationship and if you aren't feeling secure the trust cannot be rebuilt.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

3leafclover said:


> Zanna, as someone who has also dealt with repeated threats of divorce/separation and passive aggression in a relationship, I'm not sure if I'm projecting my own experiences with that onto your story here. The description of your husband's "cold robot" I'm-leaving talk did not strike me as remorseful at all. It struck me as...well...passive aggressive and threatening. It sounds like it was possibly designed to force you to show more emotion towards him and to get you to tell him you want him to stay, even if you weren't ready to share those emotions or tell him that yet.
> 
> It could have been a passive-aggressive way of a BS trying to control the WS's recovery and the timeframe of that recovery. Instead of coming right out and saying, "I don't like that you still give me these looks and are having doubts. I'd rather you stop making me feel guilty now, get over it, and reassure me already," he just said it in a more passive-aggressive way with the threat of leaving thrown in for good effect.
> 
> ...


Yes, exactly. This is what I saw it as. A passive aggressive attempt to get me to reassure him. And I refused to, where as in the past, I always reassured him when he threatened divorce.

Instead, this time I told him there are no guarantees for him anymore. I explained that he could have had a guarantee that I would have stayed before his PA and now he has none because this is hard and I'm not sure I can stay in the M until we have done the work. I also told him to stop trying to manipulate me or I would call his own father and tell him the truth about his son. I am so done with him playing Mr. Family Man in front of my family and his because if they only knew what he is really like. Everyone thinks he's so smart and so stable and such a good husband and father. No one has any idea that his oldest daughter barely speaks to him. (No one in either of our families knows about the A.) Of course though, the A was over on D-day and my goal was not to shame him in front of everyone.

That said, my husband did admit that when he was vacillating all over the place about our M (before I knew about the A), that if I would've told my parents, especially my Dad about his behaviour, he would have gotten himself together pretty quickly. So he is embarrassed by his behaviour. Sometimes I wonder if exposing the A to everyone would straighten him out and he'd suddenly be willing to do anything to fix the M. I don't think he wants people to know what he did because he'd look like a failure and he knows it.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> No, he needs a counselor to find out why he has trouble "really digging into the issues" and why he trends toward an "avoidance of conflict." His own words demonstrate that he really knows he needs to fix these issues but his pride will not allow it. Not cheating again is a good first step and obviously a deal breaker if he does but his recent actions prove that the other main issue, his constant running away, remains. Unless he tackles that you won't feel safe in the relationship and if you aren't feeling secure the trust cannot be rebuilt.


I agree. He admits this will always be an issue he needs to be aware of because dealing with conflict is difficult and uncomfortable for him. However, he gets that by avoiding it and cheating, he created even more conflict. More than he could have even imagined.

I'm just trying to determine that if he's still like this in his early 40's, can he really ever get it? I feel like it's the same drama as when we were in our 20's and I'm just exhausted by it all.

I don't feel secure. I'm not sure I ever will now. He threatened me again even after I explained to him, not that long ago, how much his bailing on me hurts me.

And then turned it around and said it was all for me. And that I will never trust him again anyway. Can he really be that foolish as to not see that by doing this again that I WILL NEVER trust him again?

I can't keep holding his hand. He's a grown man and he needs to fix himself.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Vegemite said:


> Again, I can relate to what you say so much. I'm still with my CW at 2 years now. It was awful for the first 18 months because I fought with her about the A and I knew she was lying about details. But she is the almost perfect wife now. Far better than any time previous in our 20 years together.
> 
> Like your CH, I have to force her to read anything I research. She has done nothing on her own. I gave her that article posted by Chapparal (thanks Chap!) along with 2 other similar articles about what a WS should do to fix things after their affair. That was a few weeks back. She read them. Agreed that she has made a lot of bad decisions. But no follow up.
> 
> It just doesn't make you feel cofident with moving forward with R. I freely admit I'm in Limbo. Like you said, I don't think I'm the sort of person who will ever really fully recover enough from the PA to successfully R. Having said that, it isn't that easy break free.


Vegemite, this is exactly how I feel as well.

I'm not sure I can move past it and I'm even more sure I can't if he doesn't stop threatening to leave under the guise of leaving in my best interest. 

Oh, and he even said he doesn't believe that even if he does everything he can, that I will get over it anyway. Wow, so why bother trying everything I guess? 

It's not bad enough to leave in my case either and it's not an easy decision when you don't have anything glaringly obvious to go on. He's fully transparent and loving and a better husband that he was pre-A in many ways but...

There is no safety for me. Why can't he get that? :scratchhead:


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

The reason he still has this issue in his 40's is because he never sought help for it. You want to know why he doesn't get it? Because he is avoiding this as well. Its just another avoidance of conflict. IMO, if you don't make him seeing an IC for his avoidance issues a condition for the continuation of the marriage you will not ever feel safe enough to truly R.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> The reason he still has this issue in his 40's is because he never sought help for it. You want to know why he doesn't get it? Because he is avoiding this as well. Its just another avoidance of conflict. IMO, if you don't make him seeing an IC for his avoidance issues a condition for the continuation of the marriage you will not ever feel safe enough to truly R.


Yes, I believe this is at the core of it.

He is avoiding dealing with his avoidance. 

I will try talking to him again but it's almost as if my questioning his commitment to R, which leads me to be less committed, gives him license to have one foot out the door himself BUT he needs to be the strong one in this situation. He needs to show that he is willing to do anything and everything because that's what will heal us.

Instead, he looks at things as being dismal as a reason not to try. He gives up when I hit a low point on the rollercoaster and share my negative feelings.

Ironically, he claims our oldest daughter and our young son give up too easily on things, yet he can't seem to fully grasp this about himself.

We need to stop this circular dance because I cannot do it anymore...


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

With IC, the person seeking treatment really has to want to go and be positive about it. But if they don't really want to be there and admit to their issues, then it's a waste of time. You can lead a horse to water........etc

In my case, and I'm sure in a lot of cases, the WS will just say whatever it takes to get off the hook.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Vegemite said:


> With IC, the person seeking treatment really has to want to go and be positive about it. But if they don't really want to be there and admit to their issues, then it's a waste of time. You can lead a horse to water........etc
> 
> In my case, and I'm sure in a lot of cases, the WS will just say whatever it takes to get off the hook.


Well, he won't balk about MC. He brought it up in the weeks post D-day but I said I wasn't ready.

So I do know he's open to it but again, I'd probably have to arrange it if it's going to happen. He'll just let our M fall apart around us.

His idea of fixing is about being affectionate and loving and having lots of sex. Going out for dinner and holding my hand and just being present.

Again, the good stuff.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

3leafclover said:


> I feel like I'm posting blind since I haven't read any of your past threads, but maybe you need to step back more. Stop trying so hard for the reconciliation. Stop asking him to read books, etc. Basically, a soft to moderate 180.
> 
> You said you want him to be more of a leader. You've already lost respect for him. I think you have to step back and let him either sink or swim. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force him to do the work for reconciliation...um, or something like that. You can drag him along for awhile, but even if he goes through the motions after enough coercion, it isn't going to be enough. He has to want on his own to repair the marriage before it can be repaired. You can't make him want that. You can't lend him your desire for that. If you try to, you'll never feel safe even if y'all stay together.
> 
> ...


My threads are all more of the same. Me questioning R and him enjoying lots of sex and good times...

I did give him a list of sorts. It included writing an apology letter, which he stalled on for months. Finally gave me a lame one which made me furious. But still didn't write another one because he said he had expressed his remorse in person. True, but I didn't think a letter was too much to ask. Finally, I gave him a time limit to complete the list or he could move out (the list included a heartfelt true apology letter, trying harder with our eldest daughter, etc.). Well, he gave me a lovely letter on the last day. However, that was the day he also said he had to leave in my "best interest". Sometimes I wonder if it's all still part of his passive aggressive game but he does it unconsciously out of habit.

Anyway, he does the transparency thing very well so that's not an issue. He keeps in contact and gives me his GPS location whenever I ask. Truthfully, I'm not that worried about OW. The excuse for the A was that I had withdrawn from the M (due to his passive aggressive behaviour) and we stopped having sex. He said OW was a poor replacement and he always just wanted me. We've talked about this in depth enough, that I don't doubt that I was always his first choice. Also, I don't think a crazy OW is an option for him. He had been trying to get out of the A for months prior to D-day (she was blackmailing him). It was when he realized that she was not going to go away that he said enough, and that's when she followed through on her threat (and we had our D-day) so I think she acted insane enough that he'd never go back. He said her personality and her neediness got on his nerves, especially towards the end and it became a chore (even an affair was too much work for him). Also, our kids know and hate her so it would never be a relationship he could legitimize. He cares too much about what people think to bring her around his friends and family as I'd tell the world about his A if he tried to turn it into a real relationship.

That's my story in a nutshell.

But yes, I think I will try your idea and give him another time limit and a clearer list. Although, I don't like setting him up leave everything for the last day again and that's what I feel he will do.  And yes, it's 180 time for me now. I won't be distant but I'll stop leading. Although, I think he got a taste of that when I told him he made this mess, he better fix it.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Hmm I just read all of this and as WS I think it sounds like he is so remorseful that he don't know what to do. He is obviously concerned about you and if you are happy. We are almost 6 mo in our R and I can't see myself saying "well I messed up and you can't get over it so I guess I'll just divorce you" yet that letter he wrote you sounds like he sincerly is sorry. The question is..does he want to be with you? Does he love you or is he just trying to do the right thing? I know I don't ever ever wanna leave my hubby but if he was mean to me and constantly beating me up over my EA I might land up saying the same thing. I mean yes I definately love him and want to be with him but if he made me feel miserable every day then I don't think I could handle it. Are you doing that to him? Don't get me wrong, my hubby has bad days and triggers alot but he does treat me like his wife who he loves. I feel we are both working hard on our R and yes it is 100% me who caused this rollercoaster and I'm trying my darndest but there are days he feels unsure whether he can handle this or not. This is so hard but so worth not giving up. Wish I could turn back time and it never woulda happened but it is what it is.. I really hope things work out for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> Hmm I just read all of this and as WS I think it sounds like he is so remorseful that he don't know what to do. He is obviously concerned about you and if you are happy. We are almost 6 mo in our R and I can't see myself saying "well I messed up and you can't get over it so I guess I'll just divorce you" yet that letter he wrote you sounds like he sincerly is sorry. The question is..does he want to be with you? Does he love you or is he just trying to do the right thing? I know I don't ever ever wanna leave my hubby but if he was mean to me and constantly beating me up over my EA I might land up saying the same thing. I mean yes I definately love him and want to be with him but if he made me feel miserable every day then I don't think I could handle it. Are you doing that to him? Don't get me wrong, my hubby has bad days and triggers alot but he does treat me like his wife who he loves. I feel we are both working hard on our R and yes it is 100% me who caused this rollercoaster and I'm trying my darndest but there are days he feels unsure whether he can handle this or not. This is so hard but so worth not giving up. Wish I could turn back time and it never woulda happened but it is what it is.. I really hope things work out for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I believe he does care if I am happy now. He didn't before, and certainly not enough during our M, and I have a lot of resentment. He was very selfish for years.

So he was horrible to me before the A and even more horrible during. There are so many little details that haunt me. If you read my first thread on the forum, it explains more.

Do I get angry and say "I can't do this" or tell him that I think what he did to me was horrible when OW triggers me? Yes, I do. She was equally horrible after D-day and harassed me relentlessly and cruelly. She traumatized my kids too. I didn't post everything she did for fear of the story being recognized by her. Yes, I am that paranoid sadly. 

She has stopped contacting me but I have a lot of anger. Perhaps too much to recover from. Time will tell, I suppose.

I will read your story. Thanks for your thoughts and good wishes.


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## member2012 (Jul 12, 2012)

Hi Zanna,
So sorry you are going through this. I feel that my H has the exact same problem, he has always avoided conflict and confrontation. His avoidance of confrontation when I have tried to address things that bothered me over the years caused me to finally in the last few years of our marriage to become demanding of him to deal with things as they came up. THis in turn often put us in a place in our marriage where we had a hard time getting along. 

For some reason I started to change in the last couple of years and I no longer put up with his avoiding conflict, and he hated that about me when I started to call him on it.

We are reconciling now, after DD #3 and it has been good, but he doesn't know how to fight for something. He wants to, but he doesn't now how.

DId you see the movie Crazy, Stupid Love? There is a scene in it where the betrayed husband's son looks at him, (after his wife, son's mom, left him) and the son says"you don't know how to fight for what you want" and he shakes his head and he walks off.

It resonated with me...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Zanna said:


> Oh MattMatt, that's okay. Hijack away. I'm sorry that triggered you.
> 
> Thanks for your good wishes. Oh, how I wish I could go back in time and make this all go away. My H said he can't even believe what he was thinking when he got involved with such a fool. I don't want to lose my family but it feels like I already did and I'm holding onto something that is dead.
> 
> ...


How many people who get into affairs DO get involved with fools? I certainly did. Why? I dunno. Maybe they need the exact opposite of their loyal spouse?

It's known as trading down. 

and please, don't apologise. It was my fault I got myself into that situation in the first place!


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Zanna:

I resonate with all you have said. 

I hope by sharing my story I am not hijacking the thread, I am simply trying to use it as a supportive example. 

I read somewhere that the passive aggressive cheater, is the one who is most likely to reoffend.

That is what scared me with my spouse. He has always been one to run and bail on arguments and he was always somewhat phony to people. 

For example, if I don't like someone, I can't hide that fact and refuse to socialize with them.

My STBEH on the other hand would pretend he liked them and would continue to interact with them even though he was seething. 

Also, if something annoying is on my mind, I will discuss it and try to get closure, with strangers he will simply agree with them, than seethe. 

With me he would say I was criticizing him and he would leave the house in a huff, so nothing ever got resolved because he would not talk about it, like your spouse.

This scares me. 

The fact that he said, as did your spouse, that he had the affair because he was angry at me, also scares me. 

I mean am I to worry about him stabbing me in the back with an affair while he is smiling and lying and telling me he loves me?

I couldn't deal with that going forward. 

I used to love my STBEH's eyes. During the R however when I looked into them, I always thought they looked veiled and sneaky, as if he were not truly saying what was on his mind, or behaving in a way that was spontaneously loving. 

It's funny, too, because, when I first married my spouse, my mother loved him and thought he was a great guy, but about five years into the marriage she told me she had a dream that he was a phony. That was the year I found the condoms.

I never mentioned the condoms to her, still aftr that dream, she did not like him as much. I chalked it up to typical in-law stuff.

During his affair. My mother called me and told me she had a dream that my STBEH was a crook and a thief and a liar.

I was annoyed at her and said sometimes a dream is just a dream, but you know, my mother has always been a bit psychic when it comes to her children's lives. 

In any case, in retrospect, she was right. He was lying to me and spending huge amounts of our marital assets on his OW......jewelry, gifts, dinners out, vacations, etc. 

So, in essence he was a thief, stealing from the me in a really sneaky way and a liar, because on the nights he was with her he would look me in the eye and lie so well and convincingly about his whereabouts.

I was never a good liar, my mother used to tease me about that saying that my face would give me away immediately when I lied.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Sara,

No, I have never considered your comments as hijacking. I am open to both perspectives. (Both divorce and R). I can also relate to many of your experiences during your marriage so please know I will never be annoyed with you for sharing.


I too have worried about my H's passive aggression and how it relates to his cheating. He does seem aware of it though, and claims that while he certainly got back at me for rejecting him, he hurt himself and our children in the process. He's made it clear that he'd have to be a complete fool to try that tactic again. He also purchased a book on his own about Passive Aggression and went through it with a highlighter so I do believe he is taking his issue seriously.

And he admits the A was because he allowed his anger and resentment to cloud his love for me. He felt hurt and rejected so he lashed out. He said it was a horrible choice and one he will never repeat. Of course, I am leery though.

In my case, our M was in bad shape prior to the A and I had considered leaving first. I felt that my H did not listen to me and I felt he saw me as an extension of him and not as a person with my own thoughts and feelings. I have read this is often the case with PA people. They believe their mates only purpose is to meet their needs and make them happy so they get angry and punish them when they do not.

I can relate to the change in his eyes too. During the A, my intuition was kicking in very strongly but I misread it (to my own determent). My H's eyes often looked evil and veiled during the A and that scared me. I thought he had grown to hate me and he said at times during the A, he did because he blamed me for our issues. Other times, I would get a strange wave that would course through my body and my first thought would be, "You don't know this man." 

Also, 2 months before D-day I had a dream that my H was having sex with a woman but I could only see her from the back. When OW was revealed as it turned out, she had the same colour hair and style as the woman in my dream.

My H has said again that he truly does not want to leave the M but believes that deep down I do, and that is what he is struggling with right now. He does not feel safe either. I can't really argue with him because I do feel like I want to leave somedays but I am not sure that is the right decision. I read far too many stories of people regretting leaving for a multitude of reasons even with a past infidelity. I do know without a doubt, that a second A would result in me leaving without any doubts.

In our case, I had checked out of the M prior to the A. I even gave my H the ILYBINILWY speech so he was not reacting to perceived slights as many passive agressive people do but a real slight. He does acknowledge that he handled it poorly though. He has never blamed me for the A. Only given me his justifications which he says were foolish and wrong. And I do believe he was with OW because I didn't want him. He said the only thing she had on me was that she wanted him when I did not. I also believe I was never the back-up plan as after he told her he was leaving me and then told me, he came to me the next day and wanted to talk about our marriage. He then spent months asking me what he needed to do to make me happy enough to remain married to him which I thought was strange since he asked for the D. :scratchhead: But now I see that he was being truthful in that he always wanted me first but did not know how to make me happy.

We are going to talk again later as we both have very busy work weeks ahead of us. He seemed almost desperate last night though. He told me he loved me so many times and was very, very affectionate and gentle. I have also noticed his eyes no longer look evil but they are once again kind and loving.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

you and Standing in Quicksand share a lot in common in regards to not knowing exactly what you want right now and having a BH who wanted R but didn't go the full distance

I can understand why you both teeter on the edge of the cliff so to speak


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

It seems to me that people who are conflict avoiders also share the qualities of passive/aggressiveness and the ability to compartmentalize. The last trait can be a good one in certain situations but when applied to all aspects of life its extremely detrimental to problem solving when it matters most. In point of fact, each of these characteristics are not necessarily bad until they become the dominant aspects of the individual's personality. The sad part is that reigning in these traits is not that difficult if the individual really wants to.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Zanna said:


> Sara,
> 
> I have also noticed his eyes no longer look evil but they are once again kind and loving.


That is a good sign, IMO.

I do understand your roller coaster emotions, though.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Well, I got a huge apology. He admitted he was feeling hopeless and is sure I will leave him someday so he said unconsciously that perhaps he was looking for reassurance that I am committed. He saw some notes I had made about finances should we separate. But it was unfair to expect me not to think about it considering what he's done.

He also said he's not very smart sometimes, despite the fact he looks smart on paper.

He also admitted it was not fair that he said I will never trust him again because the truth is I may not and that was his doing.

He told me he wants to stay married and he's just angry and frustrated at himself for his poor choices and how much hurt he's inflicted. But that he is committed but understands why I might not be at this time.

He seemed almost desperate. He kept looking at me with tears in his eyes even as we were preparing dinner. I thinks he's scared. Maybe he thought I'd never leave...until now. I don't know. He told me he loved me so much and was so proud of me about a million times last night (career milestone this week). We shall see.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Zanna said:


> Well, I got a huge apology. He admitted he was feeling hopeless and is sure I will leave him someday so he said unconsciously that perhaps he was looking for reassurance that I am committed. He saw some notes I had made about finances should we separate. But it was unfair to expect me not to think about it considering what he's done.
> 
> He also said he's not very smart sometimes, despite the fact he looks smart on paper.
> 
> ...



It does sound as if he may have a low (EIQ) emotional intelligence Quotient, even if he has a High IQ. That's not uncommon. 

Good luck things to seem to be progressing in that he seems to be aware of what he is doing to slow down your recovery. 

Oh, I enjoyed reading about the dream. I do believe that the BS knows on some psychic level before getting proof. It often comes out in dreams. But too often early on dreams are difficult to interpret and no one wants to accuse someone of cheating, based on a dream.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Sara, I think you are bang on with EQ. I think he would agree. At least he is admitting to his issues whereas before I was the only one with "issues".

It's a start but I am cautious.

And the dream was eery but it was probably due to the fact that I was already suspicious since he had asked for a divorce 4 months before D-day and was acting strange. I think deep down I suspected an A, but like you with your H, I trusted him too much. Also, ironically I had way more opportunities for an affair and was equally as unhappy, yet never gave in so assumed he had the same level of integrity. Silly me.


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