# The "official" BPD thread



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

So I made one because @Ghost Rider asked if we could have one, and so we can.

Do you have BPD? Do you know someone who does? What's worked for you/them? What bothers you/them? How can we help?


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> So I made one because @Ghost Rider asked if we could have one, and so we can.
> 
> Do you have BPD? Do you know someone who does? What's worked for you/them? What bothers you/them? How can we help?


I don't know whether I am allowed to chime in because the BPD in my life is my SIL - she has basically tried to make my life a misery. I wonder if you could advise me on how to deal with her other than just ignoring her which at the moment isn't working.

(Brief description of her personality, all of which are consistent traits)

*Terrible fear of abandonment and sees it in the most ordinary or benign events; siblings getting married, siblings going on holiday, people moving house, moving jobs, having babies, saying 'no'. She will tantrum like a small child and accuse people of either leaving her or trying to coerce someone in leaving her. i.e my husband and I went on holiday without her and she became angry that I was pulling him away from his family (one of many examples).

*Turbulent relationships. Most of her family are polite but only see her at 3x a year family gatherings. Friends quickly disappear. She has trouble holding down jobs. She is married but her husband's family and friends have walked away from them. She is highly controlling of her children and has a troubled relationship with the eldest.

*Childish in the extreme. She is in her 40's but would describe her at best as a petulant teenager, at worst a 3 year old throwing tantrums. No social skills whatsoever. She even uses a baby voice when she is trying to manipulate her mother or husband. 

*Hypochondriac. She is always ill with mysterious diseases. She also mirrors other people's illnesses. 

*Viciously critical of everyone and everything. Nothing is good enough. I would say highly insecure and perpetually dissatisfied with everything. She attributes her complaining nature to being 'very honest' and has no qualms in saying very hurtful things to the people around her. She doesn't seem to care if she hurts people, shrugs when confronted.

*Jealous and envious of the people around her. Even the smallest of achievements has to be hidden from her or she will lash out or devalue it. She cannot be happy for other people. Her mother enables this by asking family members not to talk about achievements in front of her.

*Weird, weird relationship with her parents. She is like a small child clinging to them. Spends days watching TV with them, competing with her siblings for parental attention, over sharing private things about her marriage, expecting her mother to fight her (many) battles or pick up the pieces after a fall out. At the same time she frequently rages at her parents. She does this even at family gatherings when everyone can witness it - nobody dares confront her. 

*She lies all the time. She will make up stories either for attention, to get someone into trouble, to create drama or to divide friendships and even marriages. She hates anyone having close friendships and family relationships and will stir up trouble. I had to cut ties with my local friends and make new friends who did not know her. I also have to protect my own family from her because she hates that I am so close to them. She tried to cause trouble between me and my sister but thankfully she saw through it. She also has a history of accusing men of sexual assault. 

*No addictions but she does binge eat to the point of morbid obesity. She has no interest in losing weight even with her numerous back problems. 

When I first met her I knew there was something not right but chalked it up to immaturity. I thought if I was very friendly with her she will eventually accept me. As long as I was providing her with something (holiday, spare room, money, expensive gifts, nights out), she was almost friendly back. But the moment we didn't ask her to stay over, go on holiday, gifts were slightly less expensive, had nights out on our own - she became very passive aggressive - refusing to speak to us for months at a time, telling people we were being mean to her. The reason for her aggression would eventually be filtered down via her mother who thought if we just do xyz...she will speak to us again. We were being manipulated and cajoled into saying yes to her or suffer the consequences. Once my first baby came along was when she went completely 'single-white-female'. She thought the baby was hers and overwhelmed us with her presence. She wanted to control every single thing. She had already given up her job to look after my baby (without even consulting me!) and became angry when I said I wanted to be a SAHM. From that day on I was the worst mother in history. I couldn't do a thing right - even following the advice of a health visitor - it was all wrong. She even threatened to get lawyers involved because she thought she had some legal entitlement to unsupervised access. We also found out that she lied at a job interview, by saying she looked after my son (who has complex needs) in order to appear experienced. He is 16 and she has never spoken to him let alone been left alone with him. 

When we put our boundaries in place she eventually accepted 'no - no - and absolutely NO!' she not only refused to speak to me but she also demanded my husband leaves me with my children so she and him could look after them! WFT. This was a moment that my husband finally woke up and realised that she had serious mental health issues. He told her very PLAINLY that we were very much in love and he had no intentions of leaving me. Not EVER. So for the past 15 years she will not speak to my husband nor my children (she walks past them in the street), which was actually a huge relief. 

So the problem *now* is that she is suddenly wanting to reconcile with my husband. She now sends him the weirdest text messages; much love, kisses, I LOVE YOU, keep in touch, hugs xxx. Not so weird in healthy families but she hasn't spoken to him in so many years and they were never close even when growing up. It seems very desperate. We now find out she is having serious marital problems. I think she is basically becoming increasingly alone and is thrashing around for someone to cling onto (her other siblings live in different cities). She scares me and I don't know how to handle her. I fear she is worming her way back into our lives and will try and cause problems between us or between me and my daughter...I don't know what she could do but she scares me! 

I don't want to come between my husband and his family, and I have always encouraged him to keep in contact with his other family members, but I cannot have this woman in our lives again. Advice on how to keep her at arms length without full blown drama erupting would really help. 

Sorry for long post - hard to describe her in a short paragraph. Thank you for reading.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

peacem said:


> Advice on how to keep her at arms length without full blown drama erupting would really help.


Peacem, yes, you're describing classic behavioral symptoms of BPD. As to minimizing drama, validation techniques may help a tiny bit. I say "tiny" because, if your SIL exhibits strong BPD traits, my experience is that validation won't accomplish much (it is more useful with people having moderate traits). 

What is far more important is to establish strong personal boundaries and religiously enforce them, allowing your SIL to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior -- as a parent should do with any spoiled misbehaving young child. Doing otherwise -- i.e., spoiling her as you say her mother did -- is actually harmful to her as well as to you and your H.

For tips on how to establish and enforce strong personal boundaries, I recommend an online blog by a psychiatric nurse at BPD on the Behavioral Unit. It provides 20 tips to nurses on how they can best deal with obstinate BPDer patients. If you think you have it bad, remember that those psychiatric nurses have to deal with several BPDers for hours every work day.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

I've been treated for BPD. DBT helped me. So did finally breaking the chains of attachment/validation with other people. I used to have the idea that something in the world should be permanent, and I kept trying to make it be a relationship or an attachment. Now I finally see that relationships and feelings are the least permanent of all and should be treated accordingly - not allowed to be nearly so important. In the end, I don't need anyone and they don't need me. It's all optional.

(I'm currently back in college with the goal of someday being in the position to help others who have struggled/are struggling with BPD.)


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## Ghost Rider (Mar 6, 2017)

Thank you for starting this thread, Ella. I do want to post a few of my "favorite" stories when I get a chance.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: The &amp;amp;quot;official&amp;amp;quot; BPD thread*

My closest girlfriend has BPD and NPD. She has never told me of any official diagnosis, but she is textbook in both cases and I know she is on medication. She handles it amazingly well now, whereas maybe 4 years ago, when reaching the end of a long term, off/on again relationship that really broke her, she was certifiable. The guy really was an arse to her for years and she clung on right up until she hacked his email and found he'd been cheating and used the same pet names for his AP. That was enough to switch the hate-o-meter past TILT and her rage was formidable. 

Myself and maybe two other very close friends kept her on the level enough so she could heal in her own time, but it took a lot of dedication. Hours of therapeutic phone calls. She'd call me then about 10 other people until her rage subsided, she'd be fine for a week, the rinse, repeat. I was thinking I'd joined the wrong profession for a while. She would say some really vicious things about others, if they so much as looked at her funny. I helped her to stop applying negative meaning to others' behavior and learn that the world didn't revolve around her. She had a very, very tumultuous childhood that was very unfair. 

She really helped me at my lowest point after my D. Helped in many ways I'll never be able to repay. That is primarily why I wouldn't give up on her easily. I also didn't ever go easy on her. 

I was always frank with her and not afraid of losing her friendship with my honesty. She soon learned that unlike her, I didn't need people, whether to validate me or to complete my life. I was living as a veritable hermit before I met my H. She knew that if I pissed her off and she wanted to be done with me, I'd say "ok" and walk away without any hard feelings. Not many of her friends could tolerate her up to that point or walk away without being butthurt.

She sees the world in a way I tend to as well, only she is more desperate to keep anything and everything and I am so used to loss, I live life expecting it to occur at any time. We both believe in integrity and morals. She is actually more forgiving of poor judgment than I am. I'm just a tough old hide I suppose. I'm a good sounding board for her. She's more self aware and self correcting than many BPDs I've known in my life.

She is my most valued and cherished friend and I am very proud of how far she has come. I know for a time I was probably serving as a supply, but a healthy one, feeding her granola instead of BS. Once she was healed, the supply was no longer needed and she hasn't needed me in that way since. Now, she reaches out to me in friendship, nothing more.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

@Satya It's wonderful that both you and your friend were able to help each other and that the friendship is a healthy one. It was touching to read, and I was moved when you spoke of not giving up on her too easily.

I also wanted to say that...it may not be that your friend was any less used to losing things. More that she had a different response to it. Most people with BPD have lost a lot (or never had), starting quite early in life. But the response to that is more likely to be a death-grip of holding on (futilely) in an attempt to prevent the loss of even one more thing or person. (But at some point with "too much" closeness - or hurt - the push-and-pull comes into play in an attempt to preserve homeostasis.)


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

@*Soulpotato*, I so glad to see you becoming more active recently on the BPD-related threads. I've been missing you and your insights!


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> I also wanted to say that...it may not be that your friend was any less used to losing things. More that she had a different response to it. Most people with BPD have lost a lot (or never had), starting quite early in life. But the response to that is more likely to be a death-grip of holding on (futilely) in an attempt to prevent the loss of even one more thing or person. (But at some point with "too much" closeness - or hurt - the push-and-pull comes into play in an attempt to preserve homeostasis.)


I think this is spot on, @soulpotato. 

One thing that comes to mind... She would be devastated by all manner of things not going to "plan." Devastated. World-ending devastation. I remember once, a mutual friend and I were driving to meet at her house, and despite leaving in good time, we hit some vacation traffic and ended up being half an hour late. Our friend texted her we would be late, and got no reply. 

In half an hour, she'd lost her patience, had a tantrum, talked [email protected] about us to her parents about being unreliable and bad friends (I know this because I got a talking to by her mother, as if I were 12 years old). PD clearly ran in her family. So much drama, upheaval, and character assassination once we got there, our friend held up her hands and said, "you've got to be kidding me..." and I defended us, asking her to look at her phone since we'd texted her (obviously she hadn't told her parents this, because it's easier to play the victim). I said I was not going to accept blame because I'd done nothing wrong. In fact, we'd done everything possible to be respectful and on time. 

In the end, everything was OK and she apologized... Plus this was years ago when I first knew her and she was much different then. It's probably the best example I can think of right now, although there are some others. 

Yeah, thankfully she is nothing like that anymore!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Things like those are good training for "smile and nod"... Last week I made the mortal mistake of putting too many clothes in the washer. A $15 Costco throw (blanket) got a couple marks from fabric softener color and I put on dryer without checking. You'd think I ran over the dog, the kids, and the flowerbeds from her reaction...

Smile and nod.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

john117 said:


> Things like those are good training for "smile and nod"... Last week I made the mortal mistake of putting too many clothes in the washer. A $15 Costco throw (blanket) got a couple marks from fabric softener color and I put on dryer without checking. You'd think I ran over the dog, the kids, and the flowerbeds from her reaction...
> 
> Smile and nod.


What's the deal with washers/dryers? My ex was fanatical about it. I was not allowed to do laundry as somehow I was incapable of doing it right despite surviving most of my adult life doing it myself till I got married. The tantrums she would throw if/when I needed to wash some clothes.....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

honcho said:


> What's the deal with washers/dryers? My ex was fanatical about it. I was not allowed to do laundry as somehow I was incapable of doing it right despite surviving most of my adult life doing it myself till I got married. The tantrums she would throw if/when I needed to wash some clothes.....


I've been doing laundry since day 1. The Samsung washer unfortunately requires an advanced degree to operate due to bad human machine interface... Still....

It's a trust issue overall. Multiple times a day I will say something and you can immediately see she doesn't trust me. Like basic stuff. I make it a point to call her out on her trust issues politely but firmly, but to no avail. Our therapist has also caught on to this as being a significant issue. We'll see.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

@john117 I'm glad to see that it's not "smile and nod" across the board (though I can see the appeal as it's no doubt easier and less stressful). Your wife does seem very resistant to the input/influence of those close to her, however, which is a shame. Hopefully the therapist can assist in breaking the stalemate/lock-out.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

@Satya I think there's definitely some rigidity with people who have this disorder (I had a recent conversation with a friend who has BPD about this very thing, as a matter of fact). When things don't go as planned, and especially when things seem to be going awry, it can cause extreme distress. The person with BPD struggles to cope with distress already, struggles to adapt on the fly, so it becomes a disaster for them (and therefore for everyone else involved if the person with BPD can't manage). 

When people are involved, it's easy for that to go "black" - "I never should've relied on these people! Are they even my friends? They're probably ditching me on purpose! I bet they're talking about how much they hate me right now!" Etc. This is all fear/anxiety-based, but that doesn't make it any more tolerable for the people on the receiving end.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Uptown said:


> @*Soulpotato*, I so glad to see you becoming more active recently on the BPD-related threads. I've been missing you and your insights!


Thank you, I really appreciate that.  I'm glad to hear that!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> @john117 I'm glad to see that it's not "smile and nod" across the board (though I can see the appeal as it's no doubt easier and less stressful). Your wife does seem very resistant to the input/influence of those close to her, however, which is a shame. Hopefully the therapist can assist in breaking the stalemate/lock-out.


We seem to be running into more of those, unfortunately. Her triggers are money and how her parents treated her. No way to avoid either of those.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> We seem to be running into more of those, unfortunately. Her triggers are money and how her parents treated her. No way to avoid either of those.


No... She's going to have to learn to process and cope with these things, at least to some degree. Triggers can't always be avoided.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

At 58 she's not going to learn unfortunately. Misery or conflict are easier than adapting.

It's like the 1984 movie or book. You never remember what life was without being at war.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

here's a microcosm of what i had to deal with my (highly suspect) BPD ex;

i'm charged to go to the grocery store and one of the items i'm charged to get is swansons frozen peas with the kind of sauce she likes.
i get to the store, and look and look and look. they have swansons peas alright, but not with the sauce she likes.
i wasn't getting much phone reception in the store, so i decide (knowing she might throw a ****fit) to get the closest thing i can find.

i get home. of course i tell her i couldn't find the peas with the right sauce so here's how it goes:

ME "i looked everywhere, they didn't have the peas with the cream sauce"

HER "yes they have them!"

ME "how do you know"

HER "i've seen them there.

ME "wait a minute! maybe you saw them there last week, or last month, but you didn't see them there today, because they weren't there!"

HER "yes they are!"

ME "well, how the hell do you know?"

HER "i called them"

ME (shaking my head) "sure!"

HER "you just get so anxious about finding stuff that you can't see them"

end of vignette. i leave, both her and me pissed off. this went on for years. almost every day.
yeh, i've read about validating someone with bpd traits and not engaging them or sparing, but i tried that too and it didn't work.
usually, it it end of with me walking out fuming, because i didn't want to lose control and do something really stupid. usually then she would text me and apologize and i
would come back.

that's all over now. thank God. that ship has sailed.................


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

I know there are those of you who have tried focusing on validation (a normal part communication/interaction) with partners who had BPD to no avail, but it truly is important.* Doing the opposite - invalidating - certainly only feeds the fire. My last partner was often invalidating, so I'm quite familiar with the profound effect it can have, especially on someone struggling with this disorder. I loved her deeply, but I had to be away from that in order to heal and start making real progress again.

*Validation itself is not the problem, however. It may have been that the person with BPD was not ready to accept help or begin the process of "restructuring"/rerouting, so it did not have the hoped-for effect.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Taken from another thread of mine:



> I'm just going to tell you for honesty's sake that I had a BPD moment today.
> 
> I spent $60 on a cute pink chevron bag to use as my carry-on and meticulously packed everything in it a month in advance. Last night, Mr. Suaveterre measured it and said the dimensions were too big, but that was only because the bag was oddly-shaped and the interior space wouldn't have been too big. He said we shouldn't take any chances and found an old, plain bag at the back of our closet and said I'd have to use that. Like a lot of BPD'ers, little things can make me very, VERY angry. I'm not often angry at loved ones as such, but my frustration can turn to anger on a dime, and that anger is invaribly boiling hot. I screamed- very literally screamed- in frustration, and still yelling curses at everyone who has ever at any point been involved in the making of such an idiotic policy, I moved all my stuff. That bag was so cute and it would have matched my travel outfit perfectly. I cried a little bit. 20 minutes after the angry outburst began, I was fine. Well, not "fine" as such, but no longer angry and no longer in the mood to curse the owners of United Airlines back fifteen generations. I apologized to Mr. Suaveterre because even though none of my anger was directed at him, it probably startled him to see me in such a spiteful mood. He didn't act intimidated though. He said he forgave me without missing a beat and by that night we were back to staring lovingly into each other's eyes as per usual.
> 
> I can't sleep. I have to be up in half an hour anyway to get dressed and get to the airport. I won't be able to even attempt to sleep for probably another 15 hours. Please gods, please let me still be able to enjoy my day even though I didn't sleep and my suitcase looks like a pile of dead garbage. I really, really don't want to be at the mercy of my very extreme disappointment all day. Sometimes I really hate being as volatile as I am... but then I remember that if I weren't, my happy moments probably wouldn't feel as happy, either. So I guess it's a trade-off.


It was not one of my finer moments, and as we'll be on holiday, it will be about 3 weeks before I can be in therapy again. Hopefully I won't find myself needing it. I hope I can be skillful and regulate my anger before I am openly frustrated like that in England. Airports are, I hear, fraught with frustration.


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## twoofus (Jun 16, 2017)

*Talking negatively about others (who are not present)*

One of the things that my wife does that I really don't like is to terribly critical of other people. For example:

Wife: I've spent an hour on the phone to Mary (not her real name); she is really self obsessed and talks only about herself. She is so fat, but does nothing about it. She claims that dress sizes are getting smaller rather than her gut is expanding. She keeps going on about her wonderful son who is really a total arsehole.
Me: If you don't like Mary, why do you keep in touch?
Wife: Well, she's a friend going way back.
Me: You've told me many things you don't like about her and I never hear anything to the contrary, but she remains your friend. There must be something good about her, something you like, what is it?
Wife: I don't know, stop putting me on the spot.

Wife: Terri is a slovenly *****, still in her nightwear in the afternoon drinking tea, no wonder she can't attract a man.
Me: That's a bit extreme. Maybe she could do with taking care of herself a bit more, but it's her life, I don't think she is bothered about finding a man. Perhaps there is some underlying problem we don't know about, maybe we could help? She's done quite a few favours for us in the past.
Wife: Why do you always have to disagree with me? It's not loyal. If I say someone's a ****, you should back me up.
Me: Sorry, but I do not like all this negative gossip. I never have. If I was the type that slags people off, wouldn't you wonder what I might say about you behind your back? I sometimes wonder what you say about me.
Wife: It's quite normal to ***** about people, even about friends. Why can't you be normal?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My wife's constant talk subjects are politics or other people. People wise it's not the criticism per se but the complete inability for introspection...


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

I suspect the criticism and griping about other people has to do with emotional lability, difficulty integrating mixed emotions, and bias (a tendency to filter/focus for the "negative", i.e. perceived deficiencies or threats).

It is normal to have both negative and positive feelings towards people, even people we love. But I think this can be challenging for people with BPD. Someone with BPD might complain that something is frustrating or irritating her about her friend, but she can also still value that friend. I think in the situations described above, it's a way of letting off emotional pressure so an outburst or overage of negativity won't be directed at the friend/valued person. It's a less destructive way of coping with the feelings. 

People who can seamlessly integrate the positive and negative likely won't feel the need to vent about the friend/lover for those "normal" things. Minor frustrations, interactions, etc. This tends to be a big challenge for someone with (or wired for) BPD. 

A lot of my energy and focus go into maintaining balance and compensating for my skew. I may feel the irritation and such at relatively small things, but I pass that through my added filters before I act. When I feel the urge to snap at my girlfriend, for instance, I remind myself -- she is a wonderful person, she didn't do it on purpose, and she does so many nice things for me. So I will skip the snapping, give her a hug, and thank her for everything she does for me. 

I still fail sometimes, but I'm always working at it, and it has paid off. I am a lot better about not letting those eruptions occur. If they do, they're very scaled back, and I immediately apologize.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

So, something happened yesterday that I only just recalled. I think I dissociated yesterday afternoon. 

Shortly after I posted about being afraid my husband was possibly having an affair, I went home from classes, with him, and we cuddled and talked. But I began to feel strange. It felt, suddenly, as though nothing was really real, and couldn’t harm me, and that I couldn’t truly harm anything else either. I got the distinct sense that life was like a video game and nothing “real” could happen. I felt like I could potentially do anything-- something dangerous, even-- and suffer no consequences. 

Though, this thought, that nothing was quite real or tangible, made me feel somehow afraid. I knew on some level that that wasn’t at all true that nothing had consequences. At the time, it felt alarming, and I didn’t want to do even one single thing for fear that I’d somehow disturb or damage something important in my altered state –- like my marriage or my body or my life. So I just curled up and went to sleep because that seemed like the least-disturbing, safest thing I could do. When I woke up the feeling was gone and the gauzy film over my reality had lifted, like it had never been. I'd never felt anything like it before. It was the most bizarre thing.

I had therapy yesterday, but I didn't mention it then because I had somehow forgotten about it, and I just remembered it now. Now, what's currently stressing me out is my husband's state of health. He says he feels pretty okay, but I notice he snores and twitches in his sleep, and I suddenly fear he might have sleep apnea. I can't stop worrying about it, and I sort of wish I could dissociate again, even if it felt unsettling, because while I was in that state nothing felt real, and I think it would be nice not to have to feel so grated and overwhelmed by real life.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> So, something happened yesterday that I only just recalled. I think I dissociated yesterday afternoon.
> 
> Shortly after I posted about being afraid my husband was possibly having an affair, I went home from classes, with him, and we cuddled and talked. But I began to feel strange. It felt, suddenly, as though nothing was really real, and couldn’t harm me, and that I couldn’t truly harm anything else either. I got the distinct sense that life was like a video game and nothing “real” could happen. I felt like I could potentially do anything-- something dangerous, even-- and suffer no consequences.
> 
> ...


Check your Sugar.
Not the one you cuddle.
The one you shirk
Give short-shrift.

Eat something.
Your brain is short cicuiting. 
Glazing, hazing.
Firing neurons at flashing violet light.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

@EllaSuaveterre The first part sounds like an episode of derealization.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derealization


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> So, something happened yesterday that I only just recalled. I think I dissociated yesterday afternoon.
> 
> Shortly after I posted about being afraid my husband was possibly having an affair, I went home from classes, with him, and we cuddled and talked. But I began to feel strange. It felt, suddenly, as though nothing was really real, and couldn’t harm me, and that I couldn’t truly harm anything else either. I got the distinct sense that life was like a video game and nothing “real” could happen. I felt like I could potentially do anything-- something dangerous, even-- and suffer no consequences.
> 
> ...




This is a lot to take in. Your basically saying you want to be numb because life isn't enjoyable, or worth feeling. If your husband has sleep apnea it's not that big of a deal. Life is exhausting if your constantly fearing the worst.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> This is a lot to take in. Your basically saying you want to be numb because life isn't enjoyable, or worth feeling. If your husband has sleep apnea it's not that big of a deal. Life is exhausting if your constantly fearing the worst.


It absolutely is. And that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that I'm tired of constantly fearing and feeling the worst. That i'd rather be numb. Life is exhausting. For the past 3 days I have not slept in the same bed with him because every time I hear him snore or feel him twitch at night, it makes me feel afraid that he's not breathing or not breathing well. It makes me afraid of what it would mean for my husband to have a chronic health condition, that would never, ever go away. Ever. My husband will have something wrong with him, physically, for literally the rest of his life. I don't feel like I can handle that concept, even if the chronic condition isn't serious once it's treated. So I just go in the other room where it's quiet and I can pretend it isn't happening long enough to relax and sleep. Then I wake up and cry about it. 

My husband came home to me crying. He hugged me and said he didn't understand why I was this upset. I said, "I know. It's not you. It's (the crying is) just something that's happening. I'll be fine." He said we'd been through medical stuff before. He had a parathyroid tumor once, but he had surgery and it never came back. I said, "Yeah, you're right. We'll get through this too." I was still crying. Because, like, of course we'll get through it and we'll both get used to it, but it's always gonna suck. Our lives are _always_ going to be that much worse because of this. For-bloody-ever. I can't handle that. 

But of course I _will_ handle it. Probably not very gracefully, but this problem isn't bad enough to kill myself over, or leave him over, so since I'm not dying or running away, the only options I have left involve staying put and muddling through it. At the moment, my way of muddling through it involves sobbing in the bath. There are tons of bad coping mechanisms I could be using to numb the pain and fear right now. But I'm going to try not to use them because it would make things worse later.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> It absolutely is. And that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that I'm tired of constantly fearing and feeling the worst. That i'd rather be numb. Life is exhausting. For the past 3 days I have not slept in the same bed with him because every time I hear him snore or feel him twitch at night, it makes me feel afraid that he's not breathing or not breathing well. It makes me afraid of what it would mean for my husband to have a chronic health condition, that would never, ever go away. Ever. My husband will have something wrong with him, physically, for literally the rest of his life. I don't feel like I can handle that concept, even if the chronic condition isn't serious once it's treated. So I just go in the other room where it's quiet and I can pretend it isn't happening long enough to relax and sleep. Then I wake up and cry about it.
> 
> My husband came home to me crying. He hugged me and said he didn't understand why I was this upset. I said, "I know. It's not you. It's (the crying is) just something that's happening. I'll be fine." He said we'd been through medical stuff before. He had a parathyroid tumor once, but he had surgery and it never came back. I said, "Yeah, you're right. We'll get through this too." I was still crying. Because, like, of course we'll get through it and we'll both get used to it, but it's always gonna suck. Our lives are _always_ going to be that much worse because of this. For-bloody-ever. I can't handle that.
> 
> But of course I _will_ handle it. Probably not very gracefully, but this problem isn't bad enough to kill myself over, or leave him over, so since I'm not dying or running away, the only options I have left involve staying put and muddling through it. At the moment, my way of muddling through it involves sobbing in the bath. There are tons of bad coping mechanisms I could be using to numb the pain and fear right now. But I'm going to try not to use them because it would make things worse later.




I understand that this is how you feel but your being melodramatic. Life is short, be happy and enjoy it now, not tomorrow. Sleep apnea isn't that big of a deal and most people can be cured of it if they lose weight. You need to wake up and smell the flowers, people would kill to have your life. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and for him and realize how awesome you have it, because you really do.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I understand that this is how you feel but your being melodramatic. Life is short, be happy and enjoy it now, not tomorrow. Sleep apnea isn't that big of a deal and most people can be cured of it if they lose weight. You need to wake up and smell the flowers, people would kill to have your life. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and for him and realize how awesome you have it, because you really do.


He's not overweight. In fact he's pretty skinny. He probably won't be cured. And of course I know it won't be so bad, eventually. He's probably not going to die between now and two weeks from now, when he goes to see the doctor. If I could just "stop feeling sorry for myself", stop worrying and suddenly be okay with everything, I would. I don't like crying all the time or being afraid to sleep next to my beloved husband.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Okay, so I'm trying out some of my DBT skills. Radical acceptance. My husband might have sleep apnea. He snores really loudly and twitches in his sleep, and he's tried during the evenings. It scares me and makes me worried and uncomfortable and it makes me want to cry. We have an appointment to get him to the doctor for a sleep study in a week and two days, but until that happens and he gets a CPAP machine, which might take another week or two,, he's still going to snore, and he's still going to twitch, and he's still going to be tired. And I'll probably still be scared, and uncomfortable, and I'll probably cry a lot. This is my reality right now.

Okay, I'm accepting it. When do I get to feel better?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I'll probably still be scared, and uncomfortable.... Okay, I'm accepting it. When do I get to feel better?


Ella, my experience is that, when I recognize I have a painful feeling, I realize that I can intellectually challenge it and thus view it as _only a feeling_ -- a feeling that may not be an accurate reflection of reality. The advantage of challenging my feelings in this way is not that I suddenly feel better but, rather, that I avoid the pain becoming ten times worse. 

That is, I avoid the fear feeding on itself and becoming magnified. In this way, the bad feeling remains at a level that is reasonably manageable. As to how long that pain will hang around, that duration varies greatly -- depending on what real-world event has triggered it.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Uptown said:


> Ella, my experience is that, when I recognize I have a painful feeling, I realize that I can intellectually challenge it and thus view it as _only a feeling_ -- a feeling that may not be an accurate reflection of reality. The advantage of challenging my feelings in this way is not that I suddenly feel better but, rather, that I avoid the pain becoming ten times worse.
> 
> That is, I avoid the fear feeding on itself and becoming magnified. In this way, the bad feeling remains at a level that is reasonably manageable. As to how long that pain will hang around, that duration varies greatly -- depending on what real-world event has triggered it.


Apparently Mr. Suaveterre has prehypertension as well, thanks to a blood pressure reading at Walmart, so at this point sleep apnea is actually what I'm hoping for because he's thin and losing weight wouldn't help him any.

But perhaps you're right. Perhaps. Even though I don't believe this at all applies to my particular situation, with my husband's health, it is somewhat comforting to allow myself to believe that maybe, the biggest problem isn't actually the problem, but my emotional reaction to the problem. Because I can control that. I can fix that. I cannot magically make my husband better, but I can control my moods. It feels like I'm pretending or in denial when my husband is at risk of having a heart attack or dying in his sleep, but it makes me feel less bad during the rare times I can convince myself I'm "just" mentally ill and that's the problem.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Apparently Mr. Suaveterre has prehypertension as well, thanks to a blood pressure reading at Walmart, so at this point sleep apnea is actually what I'm hoping for because he's thin and losing weight wouldn't help him any.
> 
> 
> 
> But perhaps you're right. Perhaps. Even though I don't believe this at all applies to my particular situation, with my husband's health, it is somewhat comforting to allow myself to believe that maybe, the biggest problem isn't actually the problem, but my emotional reaction to the problem. Because I can control that. I can fix that. I cannot magically make my husband better, but I can control my moods. It feels like I'm pretending or in denial when my husband is at risk of having a heart attack or dying in his sleep, but it makes me feel less bad during the rare times I can convince myself I'm "just" mentally ill and that's the problem.




Your thinking is exhausting. Your so dramatic, and so negative and I don't mean this to be mean but your selfish. If your loved one is going through health problems its your job to put on a strong face, to make HIM feel better and supported. He is the "victim" not you. The fact that you can turn his health issues and make it about you is so narcissistic and attention needy. Your husband shouldn't have to worry about his wife's reaction to everything, it makes for a very one sided relationship, but also doesn't encourage dialect and honesty from him. 

If your husband has pre-hypertension, you should do your best to provide to happy, healthy, stressfree home for him to be excited to come home to. Not a worry, fear infested, constantly crying wife, I wouldn't feel good inside coming home to that environment.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

This might be harsh but...

Your attitude is terrible and causes so many problems in life... anxiety, depression, stress and stress causes SO many problems including hypertension, low levels of sex hormones and feel good hormones. This attitude is so selfish, and self centered, and full of self loathing and self pity. Stop making everything about you and how you feel. You can't life such an emotional life because it's crippling. 

Open your eyes. Life isn't fair. Some people have REAL problems. We all know that life is messy and won't be perfect. You need to count your blessings for what you have because you have way more things to be grateful for then most.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I know he is the "victim" as opposed to me. That just makes it feel worse for me because I'm not "allowed" to be the weak one of the two of us. Which is about as useful a concept as trying not to sneeze, or not being allowed to think about pink elephants.

But I'm trying. I tuck him in at night and make sure he's wearing his earplugs so he can sleep slightly better. I get dressed and get out of bed and do things with him. Tomorrow's our anniversary and I don't want to celebrate it. I don't want to celebrate the first of Autumn either. What I want is to be in a coma for a few weeks until it all somehow resolves itself. But I'm going to get up tomorrow, and take my emergency anti-anxiety meds so I can pretend I'm not worried for a few hours, and I'm going to plan our anniversary celebration, and I'm going to pretend I'm really enjoying it.

I made his doctor's appointment. I have been taking notes so I remember what to tell the doctor and what questions I want to ask. When he has his sleep study done, I'll call him before bed to say I love him. If he has sleep apnea, I'll offer to help pay for his CPAP using the money I've made donating plasma. I'll offer to give up my allowance for a few months to pay for the machine, too. 

I'll make him wear his mask at night. I'll make him hot decaf tea before bed. I'll give him nightly back massages. I'll do whatever I can to make him comfortable. 


But I probably won't be able to stop worrying or crying for a time. I'd like to be able to, but I don't have such complete control over my emotions. I can fake it for a few hours, especially with the help of medicine, but not all the time. It would be bad for me to rely on pills that often anyway. When enough time has passed that I'm starting to get used to this new reality of our lives, I'll stop suffering so much, I'm sure. It's physically impossible to be full-tilt traumatized 100% of your life, yes?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> It's physically impossible to be full-tilt traumatized 100% of your life, yes?



Something tells me you will find a way to be.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Something tells me you will find a way to be.


That's just mean.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

The ironic thing is about this all is... you are very aware and smart. And I doubt people have even picked up on this. 

You have a victim personality. You have made yourself the victim to your own adultery , and your husbands questionable health problems. And the crazy thing is, you are very obvious about it. And everyone knows that victim personalities are extremely controlling and manipulative. You have controlled and manipulative your husband into taking care of you, while you don't have to work, and he is very careful of your feelings and walks on egg shells not to hurt your feelings because it's very easy to do. You have positioned yourself to allow yourself to put your needs first, and your husband puts your needs first also. It's all about you while you manipulated everyone to feel sorry for you. Well played. 

I find it very... off putting that you would post this obviously victim mentality story about your husbands questionable health problems to gain attention and support on a boarderline personality forum. Which tells me that you are more than aware of how manipulative and controlling BPDs aka you are. 

You know you have BPD. You know your prone to victimizing yourself and being manipulative. People need to stop enabling you and start calling you out in order to actually help you.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@katiecrna

That is an interesting perspective to take, and I've gotta say my first reaction was to get defensive, but getting defensive shows me that there's some sensitivity there in me that you may have touched on. So I have to examine why that made me feel sensitive. Actually, it's because sometimes I feel, myself, like I might be manipulating people. 

So I understand why you think that way about it. I do tend to have a helpless personality, and I don't really know how to act outside of that paradigm. It upsets and overwhelms me when something happens to someone I love, because it weakens a part of my support system, and I live in fear of losing that support system. I think that if I ever had to fend for myself, I'd be so overwhelmed and miserable and totally confused that I'd have a complete mental shutdown. I've never learned how to look after myself in any capacity beyond that of, say, a seven-year-old. I live in terror of the day I might have to live like an adult because it's something I've never learned to do. 

Of _course_ this could look to other people like I'm manipulating them into taking care of me. Sometimes, I wonder if that's really the case. I've had this discussion with my therapist before. She's told me that the difference between manipulation and simple neediness is that manipulation involves an element of deception or hiding the truth. As an example, I cannot drive due to cerebral palsy in my legs. I either ask my husband to drive me places, or when that's not available I take the city's para-transit system or an Uber. If I really _could_ drive, and I had a driver's license, but I told people I couldn't (or otherwise led them to believe that I couldn't drive) so that they would drive me around places, _that_ would be manipulation because I'd be knowingly deceiving them.

What may be happening with me is that I have limited self-confidence and a core belief that I am innately incapable of most things. My therapist is trying to work on getting me out of that mindset to a small degree, by getting me to notice when I achieve something, and getting me used to the feeling of accomplishment. I go to school now, and when I graduate in a couple semesters, I'm going to get a job. Maybe part-time, maybe full-time, but I'll get a job. That will be huge, and may help me feel less dependent upon other people for my survival. And if I can depend on other people less, I won't feel so doomed when things happen to those other people.

Meanwhile, I am trying not to be upset in front of my husband. Especially tomorrow, because it's our anniversary and he wants it to be a happy occasion for us both. I will probably have to rely on medication tomorrow in order to keep my emotions under control. But there are things I can do without it. When I've not been venting about my fears online, I've been watching funny youtube videos to distract myself. I take frequent bubble baths. (bonus being that I can cry in private without my husband knowing I'm upset) I watch TV with my husband and focus on the TV show, not on him because thinking about him makes me worry right now. I cuddle him and practice being totally in the moment and try not to think about anything but how soft and warm he is. I tuck my husband in at night and make him comfortable, without talking about my fears. I help people on infidelity subreddits on Reddit, and I don't mention my fears there either. Helping other wayward spouses gives me a sense of purpose and usefulness.

This whole week is one long practice in Distress Tolerance skills. The good news is I will become more resilient by doing this. My therapist will be proud of me for trying.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> That's just mean.


It's also reality for many people. 

Planning beats worrying.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

john117 said:


> It's also reality for many people.
> 
> Planning beats worrying.


It's true. There's only so much planning I can do, though. Like I said, I've already got a list of things to tell/ask the doctor next week. I'm not sure what more can be done at this point.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

The problem with this is that you are an adult. You need to work on being as independent as possible. I've always thought that the sign of a good parent is when their kids can function completely independent. Your husband should be a partner in life, not your care taker. This is a dysfunctional dynamic and puts you are risk of abuse, and being pressured to tolerate bad behavior because you need him and he knows it. 

Also, you know you have BPD and these people are known to be manipulative, and controlling, so chances are pretty high you are. 

The story you told about your husbands health is dramatic and irrational. Which is a probably a ploy to get attention. This is classic BPD. It would be a disservice to enable your fear and anxiety. That is why I'm calling you out, I'm trying to help you, not enable you like many people will.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

It doesn't seem dramatic or irrational to me. If _I_ thought I was being dramatic, but kept on anyway, that would be manipulative. But to me, it seems perfectly reasonable to be afraid for my husband's health and/or life given the circumstances. I have a feeling that in time, no matter how severe my husband's health issues really turn out to be, I will eventually get used to living with this new reality and therefore it won't bother me as much So, for now, until the problem goes away or I get used to it, I have to (I guess) just keep doing what I'm doing and try not to express too much worry to my husband.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> It's true. There's only so much planning I can do, though. Like I said, I've already got a list of things to tell/ask the doctor next week. I'm not sure what more can be done at this point.


Look up decision trees. 

The problem with how humans think in general is that they don't see all options, just the ones they want to see. Once we understand all available options and hopefully the chance they could occur, we can make better decisions.

BPD simply prunes away a lot of the decision tree. You need to address that.

Classic example. We have some very expensive rugs at home, wool or wool / silk. Wife is mortally afraid a regimen of moths will eat them. So, every insect is now a moth...


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

So, is it a little like a flow chart?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

*The &quot;official&quot; BPD thread*



EllaSuaveterre said:


> It doesn't seem dramatic or irrational to me. If _I_ thought I was being dramatic, but kept on anyway, that would be manipulative. But to me, it seems perfectly reasonable to be afraid for my husband's health and/or life given the circumstances. I have a feeling that in time, no matter how severe my husband's health issues really turn out to be, I will eventually get used to living with this new reality and therefore it won't bother me as much So, for now, until the problem goes away or I get used to it, I have to (I guess) just keep doing what I'm doing and try not to express too much worry to my husband.




You FEEL like that's rational but practically and intellectually speaking it is irrational. 

This is you. My husband might have sleep apnea. I can't watch him stop breathing and die so I'll sleep in a separate room. That is irrational. You don't even know if he has it yet. Also 20 million Americans have sleep apnea. It's common, millions of people deal with it everyday. It is very rare for someone with sleep apnea to stop breathing and die. This is a irrational fear. 

And the same thing for the blood pressure. Your husband has 1 elevated reading at Walmart and now your scared he's going to die of a heart attack. This is irrational, and dramatic thinking.

But your fear isn't losing your husband because you love him, it's fearing losing YOUR support system, the man that takes care of you. At the end of the day it's all about you.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

If your greatest fear is being alone and having to take care of yourself and be independent then the answer to your fear is to become independent. This way when your husband is sick you can stop worrying about your own well being and what's going to happen to you if something happens to him, and instead focus on your husband. Because Inside if we know that we will be ok if something happens to our family that eliminates our own selfish and self centerness fear and then we can focus on the problem practically. 
Right now You operate emotionally and out of fear for yourself. That's not good for you or your husband. It's completely counterproductive and you will become a self fulfilling prophecy because you will find yourself where you don't want to be.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

*Re: The &quot;official&quot; BPD thread*



katiecrna said:


> But your fear isn't losing your husband because you love him, it's fearing losing YOUR support system, the man that takes care of you. At the end of the day it's all about you.


Can it not be both? I do love him, obviously. I adore him, although it's a little hard for me OR you to see that right now because I'm so worried about losing him. Everything in me is telling me to detach as much as possible because I could lose him and some part of me feels that by somehow trying not to love him, it will save me from having to grieve when he dies. Obviously this isn't really true because 1) he might not die; you're right that the probability of him dying in the foreseeable future is still very low and 2) even if he did, me not being affectionate for a week would do nothing to stop any part of the pain of his loss and would probably leave me with plentiful regrets.

But when he's not taking care of me and our relationship isn't just about that dynamic, I still love him. I love lots of things about him and about us that have nothing to do with the fact that he takes care of me. I love his taste, his sense of humor, our shared memories and inside jokes, the fact that we're politically and religiously compatible, the way he kisses me... the list goes on.

You're right that becoming independent would help mitigate my fear of losing my support system, though even my therapist is not entirely sure how independent I can realistically _be_. Right now, the big overarching goal is to get me graduated and help me find some kind of job, preferably one that would somehow use my English degree or the skills I've learned in college.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I made a flowchart thing like you mentioned, @john117. Now, I have a path to go by and things I can do in every considerable situation, from sleep apnea, to prehypertension, to his sudden death, to everything being okay. I guess it kinda helped. Thank you.

I also talked to my husband and thanked him for being so supportive and understanding during this time. I asked him if there was anything else I could do. He hugged me and said, no not really. I'd already made him a doctor's appointment and bought him anti-snoring devices, and there comes a point, he said, at which nothing more can be done but to keep living and waiting for it to be over. At least I can navigate up through the various outcomes which "over" implies with my newly-minted chart.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

A flowchart is a bit more detailed. A decision tree is at a higher level. Here's an example.

https://www.mindtools.com/dectree.html

It is important that we understand the probabilities involved. It is, in essence, a way of structured thinking that takes a lot of the human emotions out of the picture. It's not perfect, nothing is, but it's very useful.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

john117 said:


> A flowchart is a bit more detailed. A decision tree is at a higher level. Here's an example.
> 
> https://www.mindtools.com/dectree.html
> 
> It is important that we understand the probabilities involved. It is, in essence, a way of structured thinking that takes a lot of the human emotions out of the picture. It's not perfect, nothing is, but it's very useful.


I see... I'm bookmarking this for later. Thanks.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Also, I'm sorry because this is entirely too much information, but I was suddenly struck this evening with that familiar feminine ailment and I felt _great_ relief because maybe my current emotional state (and that of yesterday and the day before) has an explanation which doesn't require taking out a bigger life insurance policy on my husband. The world seems marginally less terrifying and miserable. Only just, but still. If nothing else, the physical pain is proving a sufficient distraction from the emotional pain.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Tonight I read Affaircare's post and I am inspired to finish all the homework and chores and unpleasantness that I was putting off. I was inspired to not let fear and dread get in the way of embracing my husband and telling him how dear he is to me. Maybe, even, I will sleep beside him. I will not let fear and dread prevent me from enjoying our anniversary to the best of my ability tomorrow. 

For someday, it will be so, _so_ much worse. _So_ much worse.

I don't know if I'm allowed to take inspiration from someone's agony like that, but there it is.

That poor woman. I could never.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I just cannot. I am overcome with the fear of losing my husband, and I'm trying to tell myself that it's irrational, but I can't make myself internalize that. Gods I hope the pills are strong enough tomorrow. It would be nice to get some sleep before sunrise but I doubt that's happening. 

Distress Tolerance. What does that even mean in this situation? I strongly feel that I cannot tolerate this, and yet I remain squarely in the middle of tolerating this by virtue of not having self harmed in any manner. 

A friend of mine on Skype decided to show solidarity by telling me about the time her girlfriend from 7th grade died in a car crash her junior year of high school. It was the closest thing she had to relate to the fear of losing a significant other. How this was supposed to help I'm not entirely sure, because now all I can think about is the concept of mortality as it applies to my husband, and of grief as it applies to myself. Not. A. Good. Thing. 

YouTube doesn't help. Talking about it doesn't help (much). Talking about anything that isn't "it" doesn't help. Looking at the flow chart and zooming in on every other possibility that isn't his sudden and untimely demise didn't help. Even drinking hot chocolate in a bubble bath doesn't help. I told my therapist last Thursday I wanted to turn my brain off. None of her distress tolerance distraction techniques seem to be powerful enough in the moment. That, or I'm not that good yet at using them, which seems much more likely.

He's not going to die within the week, Ella. Re-bloody-lax!!!!!!!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's where understanding and quantifying probabilities helps.

My doctor is pushing the shingles vaccine. Which is $300. However, it's not covered yet by my Trumpcare health insurance.

Now, I've ever had chickenpox. So I can't develop shingles. And the chance of getting the virus from someone else is near zero.

Better living thru probability


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Indeed. Better living through probability. I don’t know the exact probability that he’ll live (or not) through the next three weeks or three decades, but I assume the first, at least, is pretty high. It's only 7.5 more days that we have to get through until Mr. Suaveterre's appointment. Perhaps another 2 weeks from now until his sleep study. Perhaps, I don't know really, another 2.5 weeks or three weeks from now until we know the results of that study.

I wonder if I should make a separate thread solely for my hopefully nonsensical venting over his health. Or maybe I should just type it into a word document instead. If no one else can see it, it would be better for them, for no one likes to hear someone complain and worry, especially when that someone has BPD and tends to take everything to histrionic extremes. On the other hand, something about knowing that other people can read what I’m writing comforts me. I wonder if that’s a problem. It might constitute attention-seeking behavior, though I’m not sure because I don’t get vexed if no-one responds. Is this sort of attention-seeking behavior bad? What does the internet think would make the best home for my stream-of-consciousness rambling?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@EllaSuaveterre, 

I think there are a couple things that may really be helpful to you here--at least I hope they are. The very first I would say is that your husband is not my husband. I know you know this, and yet part of your fear, I gather, is that since I lost my husband that has triggered fear inside you. I don't think it will "cure" your fear (does fear even have a cure? I doubt it! LOL) but it may ease it some to say out loud to yourself that your husband is not my husband. 

Another thing that may really help is that my Dear Hubby's death was not utterly unexpected. He had some serious health issues and I was his caregiver for several years, so we had a clue it would happen sooner than later. None of us ever know the moment we are going to go, and yet my hope is that it may ease some of your fear to know that it didn't utterly sneak up on us. 

Yet another thing that may help is that even in the face of his loss and great sorrow, life afterward is still good. There is still sunshine and there are still grandchildren. Sure of course there's sorrow but I think of it as the price of loving deeply. I could have chosen to only give a portion of myself and my heart, and instead I went into it giving all so all was hurt. Make sense? To me that is consistent: every decision very literally has a benefit and a cost. I had the ENORMOUS benefit of love pure and true--and the cost was that losing it is painful. Seems like a reasonable price to me--I'm paying it. 

Still another thing that may help is what I call "self-soothing." I'm not immune to moments of deep sorrow and fear of what my life may be. Usually when I notice that fear overshadowing me, I take a minute and use my senses, because what my brain is literally whirling about is events that haven't happened yet! So I will pull myself back into NOW by using my senses: 

Sight--What is something beautiful that I see right now? A flower? The sun? A bird out the window? What is something my eyes see that I find pretty?
Sound--What is something beautiful that I hear right now? A song? Birds singing? Grandchildren laughing? What is something my hears hear that brings me peace?
Smell--What is something I smell right now that is delighful? A fragrance? Some baking bread or roses? A scented candle? What is something I smell that nurtures me?
Taste--What is something savory I can taste right now? Is there a special treat I could allow myself? A soothing drink (I like tea or hot chocolate myself)? What is something I could taste that I could mindfully enjoy?
Touch--What is something caressing and pleasant I can touch right now? The bubbles in a bubble bath? The cuddliness of a teddy bear? The purring of my cat? What is something I could touch that is comfortable and familiar?

Last thing I use to help my own self that you may find helpful as well is to just keep breathing. Take a few...okay several... deep, slow breaths. Sometimes just continuing to breathe is all that can be asked of us. "Know what I did today? I kept breathing!" And honestly in some circumstances that is a huge triumph. Gather the strength to keep breathing.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> @EllaSuaveterre,
> 
> I think there are a couple things that may really be helpful to you here--at least I hope they are. The very first I would say is that your husband is not my husband. I know you know this, and yet part of your fear, I gather, is that since I lost my husband that has triggered fear inside you. I don't think it will "cure" your fear (does fear even have a cure? I doubt it! LOL) but it may ease it some to say out loud to yourself that your husband is not my husband.
> 
> ...


Oh my gods. I hadn't even made the connection between your loss and my fear. Forgive me for my insensitivity. I somehow feel as if I've overstepped something by indirectly bringing you into this.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Good heavens, @EllaSuaveterre, not at all. I made the choice to write and you didn't request anything of me at all. 

Meanwhile I'd be pretty conceited to think my loss directly resulted in your fear. I think it most likely has been there for a while--maybe growing and maybe just lurking--and my guess is that somehow in the mix, my loss was a catalyst to bring it up to the top. Know what I mean? 

Ella, my Dear Hubby was very ill, and he lived for many years wondering "When?" But even during those years, there's no way of knowing if I'd be hit by a bus or something myself. We never know for sure if it will be hours... months... or decades! So when I'd get all worried, I did the senses and just enjoyed what I had in the moment. Now that he's gone, he's left me a WONDERFUL legacy, not the least of which is loving me to the last moment of his life!


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> Good heavens, @EllaSuaveterre, not at all. I made the choice to write and you didn't request anything of me at all.
> 
> Meanwhile I'd be pretty conceited to think my loss directly resulted in your fear. I think it most likely has been there for a while--maybe growing and maybe just lurking--and my guess is that somehow in the mix, my loss was a catalyst to bring it up to the top. Know what I mean?
> 
> Ella, my Dear Hubby was very ill, and he lived for many years wondering "When?" But even during those years, there's no way of knowing if I'd be hit by a bus or something myself. We never know for sure if it will be hours... months... or decades! So when I'd get all worried, I did the senses and just enjoyed what I had in the moment. Now that he's gone, he's left me a WONDERFUL legacy, not the least of which is loving me to the last moment of his life!



Yes, I do know what you mean. Thank you as ever for your counsel. It's fairly helpful to know that a person can keep breathing and find little thing to enjoy even through the very worst.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Tonight, I told my husband that I felt self-care was so useless. Being kind to myself was and is something I associate strongly with my husband, for everything I use to self-soothe (my tea, my bubble baths, my pink bed, etc.) are things he's given me. Pretty much EVERYTHING in my life was given to me by him. But tonight, after he went to bed and I had tucked him in and given him multitudes of cuddles and kisses goodnight, I took a bubble bath, had some tea, gave myself a facial, and now I'm lying in the pink bed on my laptop, surrounded by fluffy blankets and feather pillows and stuffed animals. I feel better. 

I want to make time, at some point, to address what on earth would become of me if something happened to my husband, but I wouldn't know where to begin. I would move in with my parents in such an event, even though they have recently moved to a tiny little town miles from civilization. I would not be able to donate plasma for money twice a week and would be quite unable to earn my keep. I suppose now isn't the best time to think about it. Surely I won't need to think about it for quite some time. I could try and call my mom tomorrow and ask her...


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

You can live by yourself if you want. Soon you will be graduating and getting a job and making money. You can be independent if you want. Lots of people use public transportation.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> You can live by yourself if you want. Soon you will be graduating and getting a job and making money. You can be independent if you want. Lots of people use public transportation.


Indeed I will be. I don't know if I'll be lucky enough to get a job that would make use of an English degree, or a job which pays more than minimum wage, on which almost no one can live independently, but we will see. Prospects out there are deeply grim.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If I got a job with a psychology degree anything is possible...

You need to work on self confidence build up. Any work is good. Any education is good.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

You know how, when you have BPD, little things can irritate you, you extrapolate wild conclusions that only make sense in your world, and you are suddenly enraged?

Or little things upset you, you extrapolate similarly wild conclusions, and you're suddenly suicidal?

Well, tonight, a little thing surprised me. Mr. Suaveterre and I _both_ had our blood pressure taken at the neighborhood wal-mart near us. We are both prehypertensive. (I'm assuming that's a word?) Actually, my numbers were worse than his. The conclusion I got from this is that our health is about the same, which leads me to believe that either the machine is off-kilter or we will die at around the same time. Either way, I am ELATED. Thrilled. Over the moon. Happier than I've been all week!

Or, you know, we could both just have prehypertension and he could still be at greater risk of an untimely demise than I. Or, this only makes sense in _my_ head and absolutely nobody else has any idea where I'm getting my reasoning. Honestly, it's probably that last thing.

But I'd rather not think about that. I'm happy for once!!

Wheeee!!!!


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Stop trying to calculate when your going to die. It's pointless. Just live your life and be the best person you can be, the best wife you can be to your husband, the best and healthiest person to yourself. Stop over thinking and enjoy life while growing and becoming better in everything you do. Focus on things you can control.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

It seems you actively focus and obsess about things you can't control. It seems you don't think that this is a problem and you just do it anyway because "that's the way you are". You should make it a point to work on this. Because this is what I mean when I say people live in a certain way that is known to be bad for them and they don't take responsibility for it or try to change it. 

We all need to figure out our own issues and problems and purposely work on them not just continue to live in a way that's like "well this is how I am". I'm not really explaining myself well lol. But my point is, you have a problem with fearing the future, and focusing on it and focusing on your potential problems that's haven't happened yet and living in fear. That's not good. You need to make it a point everyday to work on this or else it will get the best of you. Everyday you need to try to be more present and grateful and not think about scary things in your future you can't control. So I don't think it's a good thing that you come on here and use this as a way to obsess and continue to talk about these non issues and further escalate your fear. 

So here's an example... I have problems with low self esteem. I'm very aware of my issues. So everyday I try to do some affirmations, and I read a devotional about helping control my mind and thoughts to practice being positive. I don't come on here and beat myself up and talk about my negative
Thoughts about myself because that will enable the problem and make me think more negative thoughts about myself. 

Does that make sense? That's what I was trying to write about before as well. You can't live in your fear. Just like I can't live in my low self esteem. So we need to first identify the problem and agree to change it. And I think the first thing everyone needs to change is talking about it. Stop writing posts everyday about this dramatic, nonsense that further escalates your fear. Because it seems like your LOOKING for things to fear. 

I hope that makes sense. If not I can try again. But you need to have control of your mind, you can't live irrationally and use the fact that this is how you are as an excuse. Because this is enabling, nothing good comes from it, and it really hurts us and causes other issues. And the first way to control your mind is to control your tongue and what we right.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I have tried before not to worry about things in front of people. I have tried before to keep my fears inside my head and not write them down or talk about them, and I have found that it doesn't really make a difference in how I feel. I have a constant need to talk about my problems because it feels good ( or at least much less bad) to know that someone knows I am upset. Even if they don't or can't comfort me and respond to me, I feel better knowing that my thoughts are out there and I don't have to waste so much energy pretending to be okay.

If I don't talk about it, the emotional pressure just builds and builds until I feel like I have to self harm or stop eating to distract myself and make me feel safe. It hurts less to think about pain that I know I can heal from than pain that I don't think I can survive. 

One time, at the request of a few friends, I didn't talk about any of my worries for _two months_ . They didn't go away or even lessen. The urge to process and ruminate and be heard didn't go away at all. The mental breakdown I had at the end of those two months was worse than it would have been otherwise because I didn't feel listened to and validated. 

When people tell me not to worry about things, therefore, it makes me a little angry because it feels like they're not asking me to try something else for my benefit, but for theirs. I'm always happy to try new ideas, like distress tolerance and decision trees and affirmations, but I would rather use them as a way to supplement venting my worries, not as a way to replace it. Since not talking about it doesn't seem to help me much, when somebody tells me to be positive, it feels like they're saying, "Your fear makes me uncomfortable so I want you to pretend you're not in pain." I understand that not thinking about it and trying to tell themselves something different and more positive really does work for a lot of people, and I wish it worked for me, but changing the thoughts I express on the outside doesn't change the thoughts I feel on the inside, and it leads to greater urges to make my pain visible via self-destruction.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You're channeling my wife here. She lives on fear. I'm the opposite, the incredible planner who has simulation models of everything and can quote probability numbers better than a senior actuary at Liberty Mutual...

Living in fear in general is what's needs addressing. I worry about things too but also I'm very proactive so I'm rarely surprised.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

*The &quot;official&quot; BPD thread*

I guess I didn't articulate myself good enough because your not understanding what I'm saying. 

I'm not saying to not talk about what your feeling. Im not saying to pretend to be someone else. And what I am suggesting is for your benefit not mine. I'm talking about speaking more positively about what's going on. There is always a silver lining. So instead of saying my husband might have sleep apnea he might die.... talk about your fear in a way that it's a challenge for you. "My fear is being tested, my husband might have sleep apnea. But I am going to try not to fear the unknown until I know for sure. This is difficult for me but I'm trying to be strong and positive".
Speaking like this is proactive. It's identifying something that is hard for you, how it makes you feel, and how your going to be proactive by trying to not let it bother you until you know more. 
You can't be over dramatic and exaggerate things even if it's how you feel because not only does it annoy people but it is actually offensive to people with real problems.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I am not saying don't worry about things. That's like saying don't be a female. I'm saying take that worry and put a positive, rational spin on it. There are your feelings and then there is being rational and practical. Take your feelings and express them but then come down to earth by realizing your feelings are not the reality and making sure you acknowledge that. "I'm scared my husband might have high blood pressure and I fear he is going to die early, but I know that my fears are just that, and I should wait until I know more important before I start to assume the worst."


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I guess I didn't articulate myself good enough because your not understanding what I'm saying.
> 
> I'm not saying to not talk about what your feeling. Im not saying to pretend to be someone else. And what I am suggesting is for your benefit not mine. I'm talking about speaking more positively about what's going on. There is always a silver lining. So instead of saying my husband might have sleep apnea he might die.... talk about your fear in a way that it's a challenge for you. "My fear is being tested, my husband might have sleep apnea. But I am going to try not to fear the unknown until I know for sure. This is difficult for me but I'm trying to be strong and positive".
> Speaking like this is proactive. It's identifying something that is hard for you, how it makes you feel, and how your going to be proactive by trying to not let it bother you until you know more.
> You can't be over dramatic and exaggerate things even if it's how you feel because not only does it annoy people but it is actually offensive to people with real problems.


Okay, yes, I do see the difference. I suppose there's a certain nobility in refusing to have a public breakdown before the event actually happens in the present, in real time. 

I very much disagree with the idea that my worries are melodramatic or offensive. It's not even exaggeration. Not in the slightest, and I'm not sure what I have said that you could call an exaggeration or embellishment. My husband really does have prehypertension and exhaustion. Therefore, he likely also has sleep apnea. Sleep apnea is shown to increase the risk of heart attack or stroke, therefore he is at greater risk of death by these causes than someone without sleep apnea. (I believe it is something like twice the rate of such deaths if they use a CPAP, and five times the rate if they don't) Sleep apnea causes pauses in breathing at night, and short periods of lack of oxygen to the heart and brain. Therefore, it is possible that he could suffocate at night. 

My reaction, I believe, is appropriate for someone whose husband could have a heart attack or a stroke or suffocate in his sleep at any given time. Is there something abnormal about believing that he could die at any moment? That is the way I interpret the studies and articles I've read. But perhaps my interpretation could be wrong. If you have an alternative way to interpret the facts I've found, a way that does not equal a higher probability of sudden death, I'd love to know. 

Is it solely the fact that he doesn't have a diagnosis yet, officially?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

But, as tired as I am of worrying, I will try to push away my fear and ignore it whenever I can. Sadly, it's usually impossible to ignore my fear and not worry or act on it when my dear husband is home.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Okay, yes, I do see the difference. I suppose there's a certain nobility in refusing to have a public breakdown before the event actually happens in the present, in real time.
> 
> I very much disagree with the idea that my worries are melodramatic or offensive. It's not even exaggeration. Not in the slightest, and I'm not sure what I have said that you could call an exaggeration or embellishment. My husband really does have prehypertension and exhaustion. Therefore, he likely also has sleep apnea. Sleep apnea is shown to increase the risk of heart attack or stroke, therefore he is at greater risk of death by these causes than someone without sleep apnea. (I believe it is something like twice the rate of such deaths if they use a CPAP, and five times the rate if they don't) Sleep apnea causes pauses in breathing at night, and short periods of lack of oxygen to the heart and brain. Therefore, it is possible that he could suffocate at night.
> 
> ...




You don't even have a diagnosis yet. Also it is an exaggeration, being at a higher risk doesn't mean it's going to happen, especially anytime soon. Your at a higher risk of getting struck by a car if you leave your house. Your at a higher risk of having hypertension if your black. 

And just speaking Of my own opinion which I believe I share with many... when someone is going through a really hard time and someone else starts complaining and being dramatic about something that hasn't happened yet or isn't perceived to be a big deal it can be offensive. It's like someone complaining about not being able to sleep because their kids woke them up to someone who is having a hard time conceiving. It can be offensive and inconsiderate. Some people have REAL problems. Not things that haven't happened yet.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

And prehypertension is nothing but a warning essentially. It can be treated with diet, exercise, and stress management.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

*The &quot;official&quot; BPD thread*

And just to let you know, you being very child-like, co dependent and having a low threshold to stress 100% puts a lot of pressure on your husband in terms of being the caretaker and provider. So for your husbands sake you need to put your big girl pants on and start acting like an adult and stop making everything about you. You need to be strong and take care of yourself and your husband.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> And just speaking Of my own opinion which I believe I share with many... when someone is going through a really hard time and someone else starts complaining and being dramatic about something that hasn't happened yet or isn't perceived to be a big deal it can be offensive. It's like someone complaining about not being able to sleep because their kids woke them up to someone who is having a hard time conceiving. It can be offensive and inconsiderate. Some people have REAL problems. Not things that haven't happened yet.


So just to clarify, you're struggling with something (and now I wonder what that is) and because you believe that what is happening to you currently is objectively worse than what likely will happen to me and my husband in the near future, you are annoyed and do not believe my problems are "real". Am I reading you correctly? 

The amount that a situation can affect somebody varies from person to person. Some people are utterly devastated to the point of suicide when they hear the news that their grown child doesn't follow their parents' religion. I wouldn't care at all. It wouldn't be any more devastating to me them hearing about the weather. Yet it can make some people seek therapy. And while I would be tempted to disparage them for their reaction, it wouldn't make their feelings about it any less real to them.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

And again I did not tell you to ignore your fears. I'm telling you to acknowledge your fear, but tell yourself that you may feel afraid but rationally speaking it doesn't do any good being anxious and scared.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> So just to clarify, you're struggling with something (and now I wonder what that is) and because you believe that what is happening to you currently is objectively worse than what likely will happen to me and my husband in the near future, you are annoyed and do not believe my problems are "real". Am I reading you correctly?
> 
> 
> 
> The amount that a situation can affect somebody varies from person to person. Some people are utterly devastated to the point of suicide when they hear the news that their grown child doesn't follow their parents' religion. I wouldn't care at all. It wouldn't be any more devastating to me them hearing about the weather. Yet it can make some people seek therapy. And while I would be tempted to disparage them for their reaction, it wouldn't make their feelings about it any less real to them.




Your fears are in your head. They are not real. 
I'm annoyed because you don't see it but I do... your fear and behavior is causing actual problems in your life. Your fear is causing you to be selfish and counterproductive. Your fear will cause your husband to be more stressed out and put more pressure on him and cause his blood pressure to go up. Not to mention what it does to your health.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

As to my husband's needs, I have asked him several times if there is anything more he would have me do to help him, and he says that there is nothing more he needs. I prepare his lunches now, since he should probably be on a low-sodium diet. I tuck him in every night. I made his doctor's appointment and plan to take on most of not all of the planning and organizing of his medical needs. I will schedule his appointments, help him adjust to cpap therapy, research and keep tabs on his condition, ask the doctors how best to take care of him, clean his cpap machine and other equipment, and help him pay for his treatment using money I earned donating plasma. 

I still can't bear to sleep with him, but if he needed me to be there to monitor his breathing, I would be willing to do it. And I will sleep worth him all night again once he gets his cpap machine. I have a relatively big responsibility ahead of me, and I am willing to do it. I am bloody horrified at it all, but I am still willing to do it.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

One day I'm going to have to take care of my elderly sick parents. And I'm going to want to cry every second, and I'm not going to want to get out of bed and face reality. But I'm going to put my big girl pants on and smile and put my parents needs first and care for them. And I'm going to be strong and act like I'm ok because I don't want my parents to ever worry about me. Because humans just want their loved ones to be ok, and when they aren't it causes extreme pain and stress to them.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> As to my husband's needs, I have asked him several times if there is anything more he would have me do to help him, and he says that there is nothing more he needs. I prepare his lunches now, since he should probably be on a low-sodium diet. I tuck him in every night. I made his doctor's appointment and plan to take on most of not all of the planning and organizing of his medical needs. I will schedule his appointments, help him adjust to cpap therapy, research and keep tabs on his condition, ask the doctors how best to take care of him, clean his cpap machine and other equipment, and help him pay for his treatment using money I earned donating plasma.
> 
> 
> 
> I still can't bear to sleep with him, but if he needed me to be there to monitor his breathing, I would be willing to do it. And I will sleep worth him all night again once he gets his cpap machine. I have a relatively big responsibility ahead of me, and I am willing to do it. I am bloody horrified at it all, but I am still willing to do it.




Your not getting it. You take care of his physical needs, that's great. But you are his wife and he worries about you! He just wants you to be happy, and ok. He has stress worrying about you. The best thing we can do for our spouses and parents is to be ok ourselves.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ronald Reagan was the President last time I took a clinical psychology course but it's like a bicycle... Here it goes.

Are you concerned about his health or are you concerned about your own well being by having him around? 

My parents went through some ugly health issues esp Mom. Dad stood by her side and helped not because he was thinking of himself. After she passed he had a great number of years enjoying life with his army buddies. But he took care of her because it's the right thing to do.

People's health is not an exact science. Lots of nondeterministic issues there. Outside our control. Chances are you stressing about his health stresses him out even more. 

If you can find ways to channel your worry into positive changes it would be better for both of you.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

john117 said:


> Are you concerned about his health or are you concerned about your own well being by having him around?
> 
> ...
> 
> If you can find ways to channel your worry into positive changes it would be better for both of you.


Honestly, both, but probably more the latter than the former. He is my physical and emotional lifeline; if something happened to him for any reason, I would have to move in with my parents who have recently retired and are living in a tiny town with a population of less than 1000. I doubt I would be able to hold a job that could support me after my parents die, so my life expectancy as a widow would be cut drastically short.

But, of course I'm concerned for him and his health as a person, not just as my provider. He is a wonderful person and there is no one on earth quite like him. He is dear to me, and I'm sure that even if nothing would change about my lifestyle without him, I'd still miss him terribly and grieve for him bitterly. 

I'm aware that I probably sound shallow and false right now. But it kills me inside to see people I love in pain because I don't know what to do about it. As a child and young teenager, I would lash out in anger when confronted with other people's grief and pain. I learned soon after that anger is pain set on fire, and that in getting angry, what I was really trying to do was avoid feeling another person's pain. So seeing loved ones in turmoil is always very awkward for me because I still have this below-the-surface aversion to sitting there with them and being there for them. The awkwardness is how I know it hurts me, and thus how I know I truly care for them. I have been learning in recent years how to comfort someone, like the time I stayed with my mother the day my grandmother died, but it very much feels like putting on an act of some sort. 

Oddly, when the person is a total stranger, I can be dripping with compassion, acts of comfort, and soothing words. The role is easy to slip into. My desire to help them may be genuine, but I feel that the role of caretaker rather than "care-taken" is not a natural place for me, so it feels like I'm acting. The more I genuinely care for a person, the harder it is for me to express that I feel their pain and want to help them. As an example, my grandmother-in-law died during our trip to England. I had to have three glasses of wine before I felt uninhibited enough to even bring myself to give my mother-in-law my condolences. I don't understand why it is so very difficult for me to admit it or express it when I feel empathy for someone.

And yes, I'm less stressed about my husband's health than I was yesterday and the day before. I think I'm getting used to the new reality he and I are living in. I have been able to channel my worry into endless research and planning. I already know pretty much everything about how I'm going to treat his probable sleep apnea, what to do if problems arise, what tests to run next on the odd chance it isn't sleep apnea, etc.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Now you're channeling my older daughter. She injured her wrist and nearly flew to the Mayo Clinic thinking she needs surgery. The college clinic told her it's a sprain. Her medical student sister told her it's a sprain. Wouldn't listen. Finally the wrist healed. Why? Because she researched it! She knows.

My young friend, it's all about relaxing and allowing your inner self to come out. At your age you should be busy 20 hours a day with school, work, and family.

You need to not do those mind-movies. If you sense you are, get busy with something else. Even exercise. I find cycling most useful in clearing the mind. DD1 enjoys sophisticated cooking.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@john117: Indeed. I had to drop a class this semester because I had the start date written down a month late and missed the entire first week (How embarrassing!) so I'm less busy than I want to be. But I got a lot done yesterday. My school and appointment schedule is planned out through October. And I'm planning out a fun, romantic date with Mr. Suaveterre on the first day of Autumn. Autumn is my favorite season and I'd love for him to be able to relax and enjoy it with me as I shower him with food and cuddles and affection. Autumn's a busy season for us, date-wise. We always go for long walks, go to the state fair, go to all the haunted houses we can find, and make lots of autumnal treats like apple cider and pumpkin pie! I can't wait, and I won't let this be a terrible Autumn-- if I can help it. I intend to get Mr. Suaveterre better so we can enjoy it!


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

One of my former guardians has come over to visit me. We'll have coffee and chat. It will be wonderful to see her. I could tell her about my situation. I doubt she could help me but it would be nice to have some comfort.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

When I am really sad I typically get angry first. So I get that people react to pain differently. So sometimes I come off as really harsh and mean but it's because I care so much and I want to fix a problem. For example my husbands aunt who I love dearly, her husband died unexpectedly. Anyway I was angry at first because she was completely lost without him. She didn't have a job (for 20+ years), didn't know anything about bills and how he had to take out a second mortgage. She was completely dependent on him and I felt so bad for her because losing a spouse is hard enough emotionally, and to have to learn how to take care of yourself after being taken care of for so many years is so overwhelming. Anyway, I was angry inside at her and him for letting her get so dependent because I hate to see her struggle now and this could of been avoided if she took the steps to learn how to be independent. You can't expect people to take care of you your whole life.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

So I'm not trying to be mean. My delivery may be tough but I'm actually worried about you and your future. And there are things we all can do to make the future better for us. I can't stress anything more than this... you NEED to learn to be independent. Everyone does.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> One of my former guardians has come over to visit me. We'll have coffee and chat. It will be wonderful to see her. I could tell her about my situation. I doubt she could help me but it would be nice to have some comfort.




We are trying to help you but your not acknowledging what the real issue is.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I see. Thank you for explaining that there's really concern behind your anger. This makes me feel much, much less angry at your words. While I am currently trying to work towards a more independent life by going to college, then graduating, then getting a job, and also by going to therapy to help me overcome my phobias of adult life, I fear that, depending on how things go with my husband, I may not have enough time to become fully independent before, gods forbid, something happens. So I have also been trying to cobble together a vague plan for where my life should go if the worst comes to pass.

I had a discussion with my mother and with my husband about what I could do and where I could go in the event that he dies. My mother said I could live with her and dad, and I wouldn't have to pay a mortgage after they were gone because they bought the land and their custom-built home with cash. (They haven't got much left to live off of, though, and mom will have to get a job too when dad dies.) If my husband passed, I would be destitute, and my mother said she would therefore help me get a part-time job and apply for disability money-- if such programs are still in place if or when Mr. Suaveterre passes. One never can tell with the recent political upheaval.

My husband suggested I move to England and live with my in-laws in the event of his demise. He assured me repeatedly that they are fond enough of me to take me in permanently should he pass away. I would like that more than staying in the States, because in England health care is basically free and I would be able to have treatment for my conditions all my life. 

My guardian even said over coffee tonight that in such an event as my husband's death, I could stay with her. She also said that if and when I die myself, if she is living, she would ensure I am given a proper Hellenic funeral, because my parents would almost certainly give me a Christian burial if left to their own devices. We Hellenic Pagans have a pretty liberal view of suicide, with a fair amount of our mythology involving suicides, particularly of widows. I am currently trying to figure out how to fill out a living will, because all this should really be notarized somehow.

I'm truly touched, and reassured, at everyone's unexpected kindness. Of course, absolutely none of it would soften the unbearable blow of my husband's death, and all of the above scenarios assume I wouldn't just die of grief myself soon after he did. Frankly, I can't even realistically imagine living through it, so maybe all these what-if scenarios are moot. But I know nobody wants me to die. Not even Mr. Suaveterre himself. I don't understand why he seemed so adamant that I carry on without him; after all he wouldn't be around to see me live on-- or not. But my spiritual tradition has a very great respect for people's last wishes, and I am therefore inclined to honor his and keep living if he should die. 

Meanwhile, as he is not dying yet as far as I can tell, all I can do is keep going to school and keep going to therapy. For that, there is nothing to ponder, no long sentences to write about what-ifs, because I already have my course for the next year and a half mapped out. I'll graduate after I complete just six more classes. THen I'll have my associates and I can start filling out a resume. I'll try submitting to EverydayFeminism, Ravishly, and Thought Catalog first. Then, I'll advertise myself as a professional essay-editor for students who need a little "guidance" on those term papers they procrastinated on until the last day.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

So I've just been to therapy, and my therapist said my husband's health condition- that is to say, the idea that he could die - is a delusion. I made it up, even though it feels real to me. He really does snore and have high-ish blood pressure, but the idea that he could drop dead of a heart attack in his sleep is false. She suggested that to counter it, I should do the opposite of what I feel is safe, and be as close to him as possible. I should sleep beside him, listen to "our song", read old love letters, and do things that remind me of him. She also said that when people are _actually _ dying, being close and not detaching is what you should do anyway. 

Well, alright. 

If you say so. 

Additionally, she wants me to eat more, and return to my nutritionist. In my anxiety, I have inadvertently neglected food, and have lost a pound or two.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

He watched the recording. Minimal snoring, but lots of restlessness. Somehow, maybe, he's not getting REM sleep. I'm scared. He's not. Bravery, perhaps? False bravery for his wife's sake? 

Two more days.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> He watched the recording. Minimal snoring, but lots of restlessness. Somehow, maybe, he's not getting REM sleep. I'm scared. He's not. Bravery, perhaps? False bravery for his wife's sake?
> 
> Two more days.


Any decent Fitbit tracks REM sleep. 

To be frank, if I was him I would be freaking out about having Florence Nightingale hovering over me while I'm restless.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

john117 said:


> Any decent Fitbit tracks REM sleep.
> 
> To be frank, if I was him I would be freaking out about having Florence Nightingale hovering over me while I'm restless.


I stayed out of the room all night. We were alone, and he kicked the sheets off repeatedly while I nervously binge-watched 13 episodes of Orange is the New Black.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> So I've just been to therapy, and my therapist said my husband's health condition- that is to say, the idea that he could die - is a delusion. I made it up, even though it feels real to me. He really does snore and have high-ish blood pressure, but the idea that he could drop dead of a heart attack in his sleep is false. She suggested that to counter it, I should do the opposite of what I feel is safe, and be as close to him as possible. I should sleep beside him, listen to "our song", read old love letters, and do things that remind me of him. She also said that when people are _actually _ dying, being close and not detaching is what you should do anyway.
> 
> Well, alright.
> 
> ...




That's basically what I was trying to say. It's not real.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I think it's ironic you're calling me Florence Nightingale. I'm not some eternally patient angel nurse figure, as much as it might behoove me to be one right now. My therapist says it's not real, but I cannot believe that. He says he's had the heart palpitations today. It has taken me SERIOUS EFFORT this week to love him, hold him, kiss him, be with him. Loving him makes me so afraid, because I hate to love someone I think I could lose. I don't want to be in a position where I have to look at his adorable face and wonder how long we'll remain together. I don't want to have to look after him. 

I've pictured just leaving-- going anywhere else and never coming back-- so I can lose all of him all at once, instead of losing him little by little, lowering my expectations a little bit after every appointment, test, diagnosis, and setback. I don't want to watch him die. I'm not that brave. 

But what kind of woman just flounces off when her husband is sick? And who would look after him? What would happen to him? Would he be able to return to England on his own?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: The &amp;amp;quot;official&amp;amp;quot; BPD thread*

You need to address your own feelings about his potential health issues, if any.

In the sense that you need to be strong for him, just like you'd like him to be strong for you.

You're concerned about attachment? That's how it is. You get attached, whether it's your significant other or your cat. You can't live your life afraid of attachment, or detachment, BPD or not.

The way you describe him, he's got 1 3/4 feet in the grave and his Obamacare just got dropped. You will need to learn the following three bodies of knowledge:

- his medical conditions, as told to you and him by a health professional. Not Google.

- his health coverage (insurance)

- the action plan for both of you.

Right now you're still learning. Once you know you'll be stronger.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

We probably won't know for a few weeks, minimum.

All I can think at the moment is, "Why in the name of the Gods is this happening to _him_ and not me?!! This isn't how it was supposed to be!!"

For a huge part of my life, it was just assumed I'd die early. After the age of about 15 or so, I got all the fear of my own death out of my system and started embracing the idea. One time, when I was 21, I got a lung infection and I thought, "Oh. Oh good. Here it is. Here's Death. Just like I expected. Okay." and it was kind of nerve-wracking, but not even a tenth as much so as the idea of the alternative-- actually living to grow up and deal with things like other people's illnesses, taxes, and finding a job. When it turned out to be just stubborn bronchitis and the third round of antibiotics cured me, I was actually angry because I didn't know what I was supposed to do next. I was already halfway through tying up loose ends, and now I had to untie them all and finish 50 more feet of tapestry!!

Anyway, the point is, this isn't supposed to be how my life turned out. It shouldn't be this way. I know using words like "supposed" and "should" are futile and I'm kicking against fate here, but all my life I expected to grow up in relative comfort and safety (check), be engaged in my teenage years to a man who would give me a life of even greater comfort and safety (check), live happily ever after for a few years (check), and die well before 30, still innocent and beautiful and young (NOT check!!).

This appears to be a sudden role reversal for which I am utterly unfit. I knew there was a chance he would die before me, being that men often die first assuming the woman is in good health, and given that he's 10 years older than me. But I thought I'd be 60-something, not in my mid-to-late twenties!!

Sure, my husband says he's not going to die, and he laughs at me when I talk about it in such terms, but here are the facts:

-He is prehypertensive, and has been since possibly as early as June 2017
-He has always been tired during the day, and rather low-energy, but still has some good energy days
-He has a higher-than-normal resting heart rate (80-90)
-He has occasional bouts of heart palpitations which last for 15 minutes or longer. He has had two so far in the last fortnight.
-He often snores, but not all the time, and when he snores he sometimes appears to snore himself awake
-He does not sleep well, sleeps very lightly, wakes often, and twitches in the night
-He told me this evening that for several months he has kidney pain (!!) upon waking which immediately goes away when he stands up
-He has headaches in the morning
-His mother had a small heart attack and lived, and he had a grandfather who died at age 49 of a heart attack.

That is what we know. That is a seriously bizarre collection of symptoms which will require a battery of tests to even begin to correlate. Sure, he won't die this weekend, but what about a few months from now, or a couple years??


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My daughter won't be an MD for 3.9 more years (not that I'm counting ) so here's my take. 

The resting heart rate is on the high side but not out of range (60-100). The tiredness could be sleep apnea related, or work related... A Fitbit would be VERY useful here. 

Whether he's healthy or not would depend on what he can do. I'm 57.5, 20 extra pounds, and today started with a 20 mile bike ride and all day yardwork and putting tools in place in the basement. About 17,000 steps. Typical for my weekend. I can walk 10-12 miles a day, work 16 hours a day, eat like a pig or not eat anything. I sleep relatively well 5-6 hours a day. 

At his age he should easily top all those. If not, you'll need a lot of tests and questions answered. Can he cycle 20 miles? 2? Dig out a dead 6 foot arborvitae (tomorrow's plan). 

You're worried about what could happen. Please focus on what happens. A lot more realistic .


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

john117 said:


> My daughter won't be an MD for 3.9 more years (not that I'm counting ) so here's my take.
> 
> The resting heart rate is on the high side but not out of range (60-100). The tiredness could be sleep apnea related, or work related... A Fitbit would be VERY useful here.
> 
> ...


He can do those, I think. In England, he slept 8 hours a night (but I was konked out on heavy sleeping pills and didn't see whether he awoke often), and had enough energy to walk 10-20,000 steps a day. I think we walked around 12 miles one day, and I'm sure he could have gone farther without me tagging along 15 paces behind him. We didn't ride bikes because I can't ride, but he used to be able to.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ok, so he's sticking around for a while it seems . Now about you.

Drumroll....

I read a lot of the same vibes from you as I do from my older daughter. She inherited my ADHD and it's an even bet she has some BPD traits from Mom. She is a volcano of emotions. Has been since birth. The book "Raising your spirited child" fits her 100%.

I was able to get her out of the rut by getting her to focus her emotions into creating. Anything. And, by sending her far for college. 

She's a decent piano player. Lots of jazz and New Age. Painting and drawing (design student). Making stuff. Photography. Dear God I spent a ton there. Digital media. Video. Writing. Lots of writing. And now cooking and baking. 

She's so busy she has zero time to think about runaway emotions. To her a quality evening is watching HGTV with her significant other and the cat. Has she conquered all her demons? Most I think. Three years of weekly therapy helped.

Bottom line. What worked for her was finding an outlet for her emotions.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@john117

Hm, I see. I love scrapbooking and photoshop work. I still sing, though not professionally. I like writing, though right now I cannot concentrate on my assignments. I'm to write a love story for my creative writing class, but love stories-- writing them and reading them, both-- upset me. I'm also making wedding invitations and placecards as a favor to a friend. That upsets me too, but I'm attempting to push through for my friend's sake. And I'll have to finish the story tomorrow, for my grade's sake.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@john117

Hm, I see. I love scrapbooking and photoshop work. I still sing, though not professionally. I like writing, though right now I cannot concentrate on my assignments. I'm to write a love story for my creative writing class, but love stories-- writing them and reading them, both-- upset me. I'm also making wedding invitations and placecards as a favor to a friend. That upsets me too, but I'm attempting to push through for my friend's sake. And I'll have to finish the story tomorrow, for my grade's sake.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@john117

Hm, I see. I love scrapbooking and photoshop work. I still sing, though not professionally. I like writing, though right now I cannot concentrate on my assignments. I'm to write a love story for my creative writing class, but love stories-- writing them and reading them, both-- upset me. I'm also making wedding invitations and placecards as a favor to a friend. That upsets me too, but I'm attempting to push through for my friend's sake. And I'll have to finish the story tomorrow, for my grade's sake.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Making that list of all the symptoms he's told me about to date has helped, somehow. I am calmer. MUCH calmer. I don't know how or why. I just suddenly think that this list doesn't seem so scary all written out.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

So, there's this... I sang a song for Mr. Suaveterre and I'll be showing him tomorrow. I don't know if I should post this or not, but I've posted some of my photoshop work before, so this isn't too different. 

https://clyp.it/3dy1e0t2?token=293f6d4e24eac4a16286d4cbb931dfa4


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Beautiful!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Very excellent!!!


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@katiecrna; @john117 Thank you!


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Something incredible just happened. Mr. Suaveterre and I were at the neighborhood wal-mart, getting his blood pressure checked and getting probably-placebo anti-stress vitamins for me. He had his arm in the machine, and I was just behind him. I began tracing hearts onto his back with my fingers, and singing to him:

_I'm your Puffling
You're my Fuzz
And I love you so much because
No matter where you'll be
You'll always be with me

And when trouble
Comes our way
I know my Fuzz will save the day
No matter what I do
I'll do it all with you..._

And at about that point in the song, the test finished.

114/75 and a pulse of 65.

I had to try not to cry.

He told me that doesn't mean he's cured. I told him of course I knew that and to believe anything otherwise would be foolish. But it would appear that perhaps I can influence his levels, for a moment, to the point of healthiness. If I have to cuddle him and sing to him every waking moment for the rest of his life, I'll certainly try!!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

These are my numbers too but instead of a loving partner I depend on Benazapril HCl 

You're one sweet young lady, Ella. Mr. S knows and appreciates you. 

My daughter's significant other doesn't get this treatment from her. The cat does . They're both too practical. In fact, when I first met the guy she described him as a younger version of me, no nonsense practical guy focused on work. On the weekend they may cook something special but that's about it. 

You're a good reminder of what having deep feelings for someone feels like. While I get dozens of cat pictures or studio project renders in a day I really don't see the deep love part being expressed. They have their ways I'm sure but like most of today's kids they're too esoteric. 

I think your approach is better. There's love, and there's the practical aspects of it. You're doing great!


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

john117 said:


> These are my numbers too but instead of a loving partner I depend on Benazapril HCl
> 
> You're one sweet young lady, Ella. Mr. S knows and appreciates you.
> 
> ...


That's very sweet of you to say. I think he knows, too. I hope that he'll be alright. In just 16 hours I'll hopefully have some answers as to his condition and prognosis. Though it goes without saying, I'm desperately afraid to lose him. I'm having a lot of trouble believing that he's going to be pretty much fine long-term. Maybe that's a bit of black-and-white thinking going on- _If he isn't in perfect health he's dying and I shall lose him. I should, therefore, panic._

And for accuracy's sake, I'll neither touch him nor sing to him whilst the good doctor has the blood pressure cuff on him. :wink2:


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Blood pressure is frequently elevated when taken in the doctor's office. Buy a blood pressure monitor for use at home and chart the results. That way he will know over time what's normal for him.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Tonight, as I was holding my husband before bed (bed for him, not for me, as I have an essay due in the morning) I said what is probably the most Borderline thing I've ever said in my life. I said, all warm fuzzy tenderness:

"You can't ever leave me, you know, because everything I associate with love and happiness, I also associate with you. I'd never be able to feel love again without you. I've read in books that it's cruel and manipulative to say such things, but it's true."

He said, "Oh well. I'm just glad I mean that much to you."

And I nuzzled him and kissed him goodnight and turned out the lights and sat down at my laptop to write my essay but instead I'm writing this post. I hope I didn't make him feel imprisoned or ill-used when I said that. Because, well, books or no books, it's true.

I'm curious now: What's the most stereotypically Borderline thing you or your BPD loved one has ever said?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You don't want to know 

Right after she was diagnosed, my wife and I were out on a walk. This must have been 2008 or 2009. She asked "so tell me about this Bee Pee Dee. Can you die from it?". Wearing my best psychology major face I explained to her the basic info on BPD. She was quite pleased that it's not a fatal disease. Never once brought it up again.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

john117 said:


> You don't want to know
> 
> Right after she was diagnosed, my wife and I were out on a walk. This must have been 2008 or 2009. She asked "so tell me about this Bee Pee Dee. Can you die from it?". Wearing my best psychology major face I explained to her the basic info on BPD. She was quite pleased that it's not a fatal disease. Never once brought it up again.


The premise being, "If I'm not dying, I'm 100% peachy," yes? 

The opposite of my usual mindset of, "If I'm/he's not 100% fine, I'm/he's probably dying."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The two aren't mutually exclusive. She has plenty of the second as well.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Tonight, as I was holding my husband before bed (bed for him, not for me, as I have an essay due in the morning) I said what is probably the most Borderline thing I've ever said in my life. I said, all warm fuzzy tenderness:
> 
> "You can't ever leave me, you know, because everything I associate with love and happiness, I also associate with you. I'd never be able to feel love again without you. I've read in books that it's cruel and manipulative to say such things, but it's true."
> 
> ...


My ex said very similar to what you said but added that I saved her a life of sadness, I was the rock in the foundation of her life, she'd never experienced true love till she met me and she was simply the happiest woman on the planet. 

A month later she's having an affair and I'm the most hated man on the planet......

You never get middle ground it seems, it's one extreme or the other in life with a bpder.


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## MrNightly (Feb 6, 2017)

Question:

What do you look for in a couples therapist for BPD?

My wife has what appears to be extreme BPD, and I need to find a solid therapist for both of us. But she thinks she's completely normal.

Thoughts? Google searches for BPD Therapists?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MrNightly said:


> Question:
> 
> What do you look for in a couples therapist for BPD?
> 
> ...


Wait for an accurate and qualified diagnosis by someone with a PhD in behavioral or clinical psychology.

Seriously, look for someone trained specifically in DBT and other related intervention methods. It took several sessions for us. Not that we got anywhere afterwards.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

MrNightly said:


> Question:
> 
> What do you look for in a couples therapist for BPD?
> 
> ...


The biggest caution for you is as long as she thinks she is completely normal all the therapy in the world will never change her point of view. Unless she sees within herself she needs to change its a hopeless endevour.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MrNightly said:


> What do you look for in a couples therapist for BPD?


MrNightly, my experience is that -- if your W's BPD symptoms are as strong as you believe -- MC would be a total waste of time. Moreover, it may even make things worse by giving your BPDer W an audience (the MC) in front of whom to beat up on you, while portraying herself as "The Victim." Granted, MCs generally are very good at teaching communication skills to couples. A BPDer's issues, however, go far beyond the simple lack of communication skills. Until those issues are worked on in years of IC, providing her with improved communication skills may simply make her better at manipulation (which BPDers usually are not very good at because they are so reactive to whatever intense feeling they are experiencing at the moment).



> My wife has what appears to be extreme BPD, and I need to find a solid therapist for both of us... But she thinks she's completely normal.


I agree with you that, if she exhibits strong BPD symptoms, she should be working hard in IC. I nonetheless agree with *Honcho's* view that _"as long as she thinks she is completely normal all the therapy in the world will never change her point of view._" 

I spent a small fortune taking my BPDer exW to six different psychologists (and 3 MCs) to weekly sessions for 15 years. Sadly, she lacked the self awareness and ego strength needed to benefit from therapy. Instead, she just played mind games with the psychologists. The result is that all that "therapy" failed to make a dent in her behavior problems. Not one dent. On the contrary, her behavior got worse over the years.

As I discussed with you two months ago in my 7/20 post,_ "when BPD is a strong possibility, relying on your W's therapist for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during a divorce."_ Your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion is to see a psychologist who is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers. 

As I discuss at Loath to Diagnose, there are several reasons why therapists generally are loath to tell a BPDer the name of her disorder. They typically withhold this information from the client (and from his/her spouse) to protect that client. It therefore is important that the spouse be provided with candid advice from _his own_ psychologist.

Finally, I agree with *John* that -- in the unlikely event your W decides to work hard in IC to acquire the emotional skills she is lacking -- a psychologist likely would refer her to a therapist that teaches DBT or CBT if he determines she exhibits strong and persistent BPD symptoms. Those programs teach BPDers how to acquire the missing emotional skills.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I see, @Uptown. That certainly explains why my therapist will only go as far as to tell me I have "some traits similar to Borderline that might be helped by DBT." But I'm intelligent enough to see the subtext in what she's saying, and to notice how events in my own life have matched up with the DSM's symptoms of BPD.

I notice you talked about how DBT works for very few borderlines, and I fear I am no exception.

I do DBT things in therapy and outside of it. We're working on ACCEPTS right now. I have worksheets to fill out, and as often as I can remember to I'm supposed to practice ACCEPTS techniques, but I don't know that they help me worry less (though the techniques seem to help me do less of the things that worry often compels me to do, like avoid responsibility, self-harm, stop eating, and detach from my relationship with my husband). It's absolutely maddening because I don't get a break from the worrying or any other upsetting emotion; when one worrisome thing stops being an issue (or stops mattering to me) it is immediately replaced by something else that feels just as dire and horrifying as the last thing. My mind, therefore, can't really rest.

Part of the worry, at least, seems to stem from a belief that I am helpless and therefore there is nothing I can do to stop bad things from happening to me. And, in my mind, the worse the thing is, the more strongly I should fear it, because again, I can do nothing but wait for the distressing thing to come get me, so to speak.

Even when I try to counter my fears and the associated helplessness by doing things that are meant to give me more agency, it doesn't always work. Political fears, for example. Even though I donate small amounts of money to campaigns and causes I support, and even though I call or write my congressmen daily, I fear it is not enough to prevent them passing legislation that harms me. As another example, right now the big fear is that my husband and I won't be able to afford his medical tests and treatments. I tried to counter that fear by going faithfully to donate plasma for money twice a week (and amassing a few hundred dollars) and by trawling the internet for anyone who could pay me for my writing or photomanipulation skills. It is not enough money and the fear is not eased at all.

When will DBT and the proactive techniques it teaches me actually begin to help me feel less bad??


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> That certainly explains why my therapist will only go as far as to tell me I have "some traits similar to Borderline that might be helped by DBT." But I'm intelligent enough to see the subtext in what she's saying, and to notice how events in my own life have matched up with the DSM's symptoms of BPD.


Perhaps so, Ella. Keep in mind, however, that a therapist may see no need to withhold a diagnosis from a BPDer having your remarkable level of self awareness. Hence, she may be genuinely convinced that your BPD traits fall short of being full blown BPD. If you do exhibit strong BPD traits, you have a level of self awareness that is very unusual. As you know, PDs by their very nature generallly are invisible to the people suffering from them -- particularly to those who are high functioning.



> I notice you talked about how DBT works for very few borderlines, and I fear I am no exception.


My understanding is that DBT and CBT will "work" for any BPDer who is willing to work hard for several years at learning the emotional skills taught in these programs. The problem is not that DBT works for only a few but, rather, that only a few have the self awareness and ego strength needed to seek out this program and to work hard at it.


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## MrNightly (Feb 6, 2017)

Uptown said:


> MrNightly, my experience is that -- if your W's BPD symptoms are as strong as you believe -- MC would be a total waste of time. Moreover, it may even make things worse by giving your BPDer W an audience (the MC) in front of whom to beat up on you, while portraying herself as "The Victim." Granted, MCs generally are very good at teaching communication skills to couples. A BPDer's issues, however, go far beyond the simple lack of communication skills. Until those issues are worked on in years of IC, providing her with improved communication skills may simply make her better at manipulation (which BPDers usually are not very good at because they are so reactive to whatever intense feeling they are experiencing at the moment).
> 
> I agree with you that, if she exhibits strong BPD symptoms, she should be working hard in IC. I nonetheless agree with *Honcho's* view that _"as long as she thinks she is completely normal all the therapy in the world will never change her point of view._"
> 
> ...


Uptown, you are a man of wisdom well beyond my years.

I want to help my wife. I love my wife. I am not ready to thrown in the towel quite yet... I feel that it is my duty to do everything possible to see how to help our situation.

Hell, I may be the real bad guy here... I obviously am a failure at relationships and can't even please a woman. 

Just last night, we were coming off a 5 day silent treatment, and she was feeling cuddly..... I proceded to give her a full body massage, and then went down on her at the end of it... as she often loves. She tried to stop me about 2 minutes in by saying, "You should save it for someone else..." I scolded her sharply and said to never talk like that again to me and that there was nobody else in my life! I finished pleasing her, and then she said, I am going to take the baby for a trip away. This lead to me asking why she wanted to get away, and ended up with her telling me that I don't love her anymore? I was like what? I love you like crazy!!! This led her to state that I should be instantly turned on by her, just laying there naked. I suggested that she hasn't touched me, or done anything for over a year to initiate pleasure for me. She then rolled over and put her fingers in her ears and told me that i don't give her enough time and attention and I must be seeing someone because I don't instantly get hard anymore just looking at her.

The conversation ended with her laying there with her fingers in her ears and me wondering what the heck I did wrong again. 

There was some random scattering of my ex GF thrown in and I forget what else. I waited about an hour in bed, just laying there, then rolled over and spooned her all night. 

I suppose I might be the problem by not giving her enough attention. Not usually the depressed type, but things don't appear real bright about now.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MrNightly said:


> I want to help my wife. I love my wife. I am not ready to thrown in the towel quite yet.


MrNightly, given that you describe your marriage as a parent/child relationship -- not a husband/wife relationship -- your reluctance to move on sounds very imprudent. I am in a weak position, however, to be critical of your decision. You would have to continue parenting this immature woman for another 14 years to match my record of imprudence. I lived with my exW for 15 years before throwing in the towel.



> I obviously am a failure at relationships and can't even please a woman.


Perhaps so. But, as long as you continue dating/marrying immature women who are unstable, you will find it impossible to ever please them and keep them happy. Indeed, no man is capable of doing the impossible.



> The conversation ended with her laying there with her fingers in her ears and me wondering what the heck I did wrong again... I suppose I might be the problem by not giving her enough attention.


If you're married to a BPDer as you suspect, consider yourself lucky that you are only feeling confused and _"wondering what the heck I did wrong again."_ I say you are lucky because a large share of the spouses of BPDers are so utterly confused that they worry that they may be losing their minds. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths. 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the _one most notorious _for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. And this is why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

DBT does help, but it takes a long time and a lot of work, and it's no magic bullet (it's often touted a bit as such, in my opinion).

One component of what goes into the basic mix for "making" BPD is indeed the way one is wired. It's what happens to such a person (what other components are added from the environment) that determines whether or not BPD is "activated", so to speak. I'm mixing metaphors, but...

DBT and other treatments essentially handle (by allowing us to slow or arrest) the "flow" of those impulses, thoughts, and feelings that people understand as being associated with BPD. But our basic wiring/nature will remain - sensitive, emotional, etc.

Many people with BPD actually can be (and want to be) wonderful, caring people -- but they're on runaway freight trains with brakes that either barely work or don't seem to work at all. They often don't know why they're feeling or reacting the way they are, or even what they're reacting to or how to control it. They're running wild and scared. 

Personally, I always used to feel like a terrified animal. The surge of my emotions was lightning quick and forceful, and I had to practice "watching" many times to first SEE it happen before I could start learning to trace it back to the ignition point and finally start to practice stopping or redirecting the surge.

Fear can make us hurt ourselves and others. In fact, it's the primary driving force at the root of everything. 

But there is help for people with BPD if they truly want it. I doubt many of use would use the tools/skills we gained in therapy to manipulate or harm others (communication skills are very important and helpful). Naturally I know very well the rep people with BPD have, and the stigma we face. But at the end of the day, I would say that most of us just want to be loved and treated like human beings.

I used to think of how I'd give my right arm for someone who treated me as if I were normal rather than like some freak who needed to be quarantined or euthanized! Now I have a girlfriend who can't imagine what disorder I could've possibly ever been diagnosed with, even after poring over the list.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Just because one partner has BPD doesn't mean the other person can't sometimes be an abuser - something that's often overlooked. It's the perfect smokescreen for an abuser, actually, because the person with BPD is already low, unstable, and vulnerable to being gaslighted or made the scapegoat.

And it's not surprising that the conflicting behaviors are mind-bending for nons, because the person with BPD is herself fragmented and internally dissonant. I'd say "suffering from cognitive dissonance", but that's not quite right. While it's right at times, there's also the fact that BPD is pretty much ego syntonic, yes? So there are plenty of times everything feels fine/normal, even though it's not.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

The most BPD thing I've ever said is probably some variation of, "I'll die without you/if you leave me."


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

soulpotato said:


> DBT does help, but it takes a long time and a lot of work, and it's no magic bullet (it's often touted a bit as such, in my opinion).
> 
> One component of what goes into the basic mix for "making" BPD is indeed the way one is wired. It's what happens to such a person (what other components are added from the environment) that determines whether or not BPD is "activated", so to speak. I'm mixing metaphors, but...
> 
> ...


I agree with absolutely all of this. It is exhausting living in a world where everything is a threat and the only coping skills with which you can understand, process, and react to all the threatening situations around you are those of a rabid coyote. And when other people see you use these caged-animal defense mechanisms you have (because it's all you have) they label you as an angry and terrifying monster, rather than someone who is terrified and doing the only thing they know in response to that terror.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Last night, having been introduced to the idea that CPAP therapy would not necessarily do a thing to save my husband's life, I had the following conversation with one of my closest (female) friends:

Ella: He's probably going to die, so I'm strongly considering divorcing him and taking my chances in the outside world before I become a widow. I cannot bear this.
(Here I show her the link to the study saying my husband's risk of cardiovascular death is not necessarily mitigated by CPAP) 

Finn: Okay, One: CALM DOWN. Two: Every medical case is as unique as the patient who goes in. Three: DO NOT believe everything you read online. CONSULT a doctor that is available for you and your husband face to face.

Ella: That study was released two months ago. Who in the medical community will have heard about it on such short notice?

Finn: A good doctor is a continuous student, they will likely look at it and confirm whether or not its a viable source. Anyway, getting yourself worked up like this won't help your husband. You need to breathe and realize how much this man loves you, how much his family and your family love you and understand that freaking out isn't going to help. Leaving a relationship because he has a quirk in the engine is not a valid excuse. You need to support him like you have been, hold his hand and be strong for the fuzzy. You can't leave. He loves you. 

Ella: And I love him, dearly! And that's why I have to get out now. If I invest any more into this relationship, it's only going to be that much more painful when he dies!

Finn: ...or, leaving could haunt you for the rest of your life when you realize that you abandoned him when he needed you most 

Ella: Survivor's guilt. I now understand why my mother took care of my ailing grandmother for seven years even though it broke her soul. I'd rather be stabbed through the heart than have to endure anything like that. The pain would be temporary, and the dead cannot grieve. Look at me, Finn. Do I honestly look like the kind of person with the psychological fortitude to be anyone's caretaker, and then grieve for them when they die?? I'd fain die myself first! 

Finn: ...No. No you do not. But that's why you're so endearing, so as to find people to take care of you so you don't have to face things alone. 

She and I discussed all the things I wanted to do in response to the newest complications in the ongoing crisis. We talked about suicide, but I determined that I didn't want so much to "kill myself" as to "abandon sentience and never look back" and while it seems to me to be a petty lexical difference, she made me promise that the distinction was enough to prevent me from seeking Death out. 

We discussed divorce or simply taking off in the middle of the night, but eventually we determined that while my husband could easily return to England and live the rest of his days, however many there are, with his family and free medical treatment thanks to the NHS, I would not fare as well. I could not guarantee my financial security with my parents, my friends, or anyone else who might take me in. Nor could I say that I wouldn't suffer for the rest of my days with the aforementioned survivor's guilt or grieve for him forever. 

So, sadly, somehow, we found that the option least likely to end in misery for me was to stay and endure bad prognosis upon bad prognosis, grieving him again and again and again until he finally dies and I am left an utterly broken down individual, penniless and possibly too old to attract a kindly soul to remarry me and help me in my unbearable sorrow. THAT is my best option, somehow. I thanked her for her counsel, hung up, and wept until I retched with the sheer force of my emotions.

When I awoke, I told him what I discovered about his prognosis. My sweet husband said only that we'll have to wait and see, and that he wanted to take me out to see an art exhibit, promenade around a rose garden, and have lunch at a cozy french cafe. I don't want to do any of that. I'd rather drink until I forget I'm alive. If my pain were related to anything other than his demise, the date would have been a panacea for my heart. But seeing how perfect he is only grieves me further because I know I won't spend the rest of my life with him. I'm out in the rose garden with him, and I swear the flowers are mocking me with their innocent beauty. How could anything be that lovely when I'm suffering so greatly?

I thanked Mr. Suaveterre for being such a romantic, and for fighting for us even when I've lost the will to do the same. I asked him how he could appear to be coping so well with the news. He had no answer.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

@EllaSuaveterre My dear, sleep apnea is not near that dire. However...even though the thought of possibly losing him is terrifying, I think you are catastrophizing in this instance. Most people with sleep apnea are not in danger of dying.

That said, even if he were dying, wouldn't you want to be there for him? He has been there for you and taken care of you through thick and thin, so now you have the opportunity to do the same for him. No matter how scared you are, if someone is good to you and you both love each other, you have to honor that, right? We cannot escape pain in life. But we can choose to endure it where it's worthwhile, where it really counts. You can do this!


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

soulpotato said:


> @EllaSuaveterre My dear, sleep apnea is not near that dire. However...even though the thought of possibly losing him is terrifying, I think you are catastrophizing in this instance. Most people with sleep apnea are not in danger of dying.
> 
> That said, even if he were dying, wouldn't you want to be there for him? He has been there for you and taken care of you through thick and thin, so now you have the opportunity to do the same for him. No matter how scared you are, if someone is good to you and you both love each other, you have to honor that, right? We cannot escape pain in life. But we can choose to endure it where it's worthwhile, where it really counts. You can do this!


I suppose you're right, though honoring someone in that way is only a pretty idea in theory. It seems like a wonderful moral, one worth suffering for, right up until it actually happens to me and I have to face the suffering. The only way I could realistically see myself getting through it is if I could somehow force myself into a state of dissociation or derealization. That way I'd be physically there for him, doing what he needs me to do, but mentally I'd be detached from the situation, so it wouldn't affect me.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Something funny, guys. My partner and I had just talked about "the issue SP had received treatment for" again the other day. I told her a lot about it without saying the name (some part of me wanted to just tell her but was too afraid - everyone I've ever loved has changed towards me after hearing the name). She decided to research again based on my descriptions and asked me Friday night if "the issue" was BPD. I told her it was, but that I probably didn't "present" with it anymore. She said that she still would never have known from anything but the descriptions I gave her (yay, work paid off). She still thinks that I'm wonderful and said that she's not the least bit afraid of me, nor have her feelings changed with the knowledge. 

I'm very grateful for her. She is such a sweet, sweet person. She's very comforting and validating, very emotionally present (and emotionally intelligent) and connected. I don't have to beg her for anything, and she often does things before I even ask. She holds me when I tell her painful things, even if I don't show any pain. She responds to me on an emotional level and reaches towards me instead of turning away.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I suppose you're right, though honoring someone in that way is only a pretty idea in theory. It seems like a wonderful moral, one worth suffering for, right up until it actually happens to me and I have to face the suffering. The only way I could realistically see myself getting through it is if I could somehow force myself into a state of dissociation or derealization. That way I'd be physically there for him, doing what he needs me to do, but mentally I'd be detached from the situation, so it wouldn't affect me.


It's more than a pretty idea if you live it, follow through with it. I think that is one of the most important ways to honor someone and their gifts. After all, we yearn for people to be there when we need them, so when we find someone who delivers, we must reciprocate if we truly want to honor that person and what has been given to us. 

It sounds to me like you are still struggling with being able to sit with/tolerate distress. Is there any way you can work on that module of DBT (distress tolerance)? There are workbooks out there for it. Pain is a part of life, and if you always run from it and never learn how to tolerate it when it's necessary, it won't be good. (Like now - contemplating leaving this wonderful man who adores you because you can't tolerate the fear and pain of his possible death at some point, no matter how remote the chances.)


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## veganmermaid (Jun 17, 2016)

Ella, what does your therapist say about all this? How often are you receiving therapy? Could you join a DBT skills group, or increase individual therapy to 2-3x per week? 

I hear a lot of catastrophizing and distress in your words. 

I know you've also been receiving treatment for an eating disorder. (Me too. I graduated IOP a few months ago and have been solidly in recovery ever since.) I don't have BPD, or bulimia (anorexia nervosa), but I found The DBT Skills Workbook for Overcoming Bulimia to be incredibly helpful. Yoga and guided meditations help with mindfulness and accessing your wise mind, too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@veganmermaid and @soulpotato, my therapist says that I actually made up the idea that he would die, even though it doesn't seem that way to my mind. I suppose "catastrophizing" would be more the word, because I read of the massively increased risk of cardiac "events" that goes hand in hand with sleep apnea, and heard, "Mr. Suaveterre is probably going to die of a heart attack," rather than that he has an elevated risk yet will likely _not_ die of sleep apnea complications in the foreseeable future, which seems to be my therapist's point of view. 

Odd that there's such a discrepancy and I can't see it, but I suppose that's the very definition of mental illness. She said that the next time I should have such an idea, along the lines of "It looks like [insert terrible thing] could happen, and if it does, I'll have to [insert drastic action]," then I should ask myself whether or not my mind is trying to scare me. Even if I don't come to that conclusion, she says, asking the question will do me some good.

I am receiving therapy once a week, and my therapist doesn't want me to go any more often than that, so as to give me enough time to try to use and practice what I learn in DBT each week. And yes, I'm trying to learn about distress tolerance. It sometimes works and sometimes not. I've only really been actively learning about it for maybe a month or so. Before that the focus was on combating my eating disorder thoughts and general fear of calories. I already have workbook pages that I fill out post-session, but I wouldn't turn down a link to other DBT workbooks. They might help.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

@EllaSuaveterre I will look at my DBT books and tell you which one I preferred.  I've been meaning to drag them out of my car anyway!


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Nothing has gone wrong yet today, thank goodness, which means my suffering is of a more cathartic sort rather than unbearably painful. I am deeply grateful for this and I'll use the time well. I'm in need of a guardian, a bowl of hot porridge, a glass of coconut water, and a nap, and three of those I know how to find.

I LOVE days when there are no catastrophes.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

*The &quot;official&quot; BPD thread*



EllaSuaveterre said:


> I suppose you're right, though honoring someone in that way is only a pretty idea in theory. It seems like a wonderful moral, one worth suffering for, right up until it actually happens to me and I have to face the suffering. The only way I could realistically see myself getting through it is if I could somehow force myself into a state of dissociation or derealization. That way I'd be physically there for him, doing what he needs me to do, but mentally I'd be detached from the situation, so it wouldn't affect me.




Would you want your husband to leave you when your sick? Of course not. You need to treat your husband how you want to be treated. It's not always about you and how you feel. You made a vow, for better or worse, in sickness and In health and you need to do the right thing, not the easiest thing for you.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

@EllaSuaveterre the more I read your comments the more you remind me of my stbxh. Sorry but this isn't going to be very nice but I see similarities. It's all about you all the time. You make yourself the victim even when your not. My stbxh was the same way, and all he and you care about is what benefits you. And once something doesn't benefit you anymore you talk about leaving your husband or killing yourself. Do you realize how selfish and narcissistic that is?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@katiecrna You are right about the morality aspect. Morally speaking, the best course of action would be to stay. And watch him die. Slowly. I've recently learned that there's less than a 1% chance of this happening, but if it ever comes to it again, I think I know what I will do. 

I have come to the decision that I will stay for him, and possibly that I will watch him die. But you cannot ask me to do so with a smile on my face or with bravery in my heart because I can't control that. However, I'm considering the idea of forcing myself somehow into a voluntary state of derealization, so I can do what he needs me to do without feeling any grief or reacting to any upsetting circumstances.

I don't know if that's even physically possible, but I'll try. If I don't have any feelings to show, I wouldn't upset anyone. That is the best I can hope for. I will not ever be the kind of person to be my husband's caretaker with a smile on my face. I simply lack the fortitude. You can tell me how selfish I'm being, but it won't do any good because whether I am actually a "victim" or not isn't relevent. 

Knowing and understanding the right thing to do won't give me the strength to do it. Knowing that suicide is selfish doesn't make me any more okay with the idea of watching the man I love suffer. Knowing that I am not a "victim" doesn't make me feel any less heartbroken. All the cognition and insight on Earth cannot comfort me when I am in the bathroom, alone, crying until I vomit. You get me? Even if my pain doesn't look appropriate to you or to anyone else, I cannot simply turn it off.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Have you been diagnosed with anything other than BPD? Or is it that you just lack empathy? 

I'm a BPD'er among many other disorders, and I could not fathom having the reaction you are having. 

You sound very much like you have Histrionic Personality Disorder.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@pidge70 I have been diagnosed with recurrent severe major depressive disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, panic disorder (but that's in remission), OSFED/Atypical Anorexia Nervosa, and "traits of" Borderline PD. I've also been told I'm just barely on the autistic spectrum, but that was when I was 14, and I narrowly missed an official diagnosis.

I’ve been worried that my husband will die of sleep apnea and/or a heart condition for weeks. I have contemplated leaving him, either through divorce or through death. People hate me for this. They call me selfish. They call me demented. They say I do not love him. They say I cannot love in general. 

For the record, a couple days ago, some kind soul helpfully calculated the statistical likelihood that my husband would die, per year, and it was under 1%, so I feel much more at ease and have not cried over Mr. Suaveterre's condition since then. So I'm not as hysterical as I was.

Also for the record, I have repeatedly offered to pay for my husband's medical treatments, and am hoarding money to do just that should he need it. I have saved a little over $400, and I'm trying to find ways to make more. As long as I am alive and around for Mr. Suaveterre, I would consider it selfish to not offer to help financially, so that's what I'm doing.

That being said, I understand that my reaction to the idea of my husband having a serious illness is not typical. I don't understand how or why it's not typical, but I gather that most other people wouldn't repeatedly cry themselves sick and be completely non-functioning upon hearing of the possibility that I loved one is very ill. Most other people just seem to have more emotional strength than I do, more ability to tolerate distress, as my therapist would say. I suppose this quality of resilience is what must lead other people to think that I am selfish when I say I cannot be or act "strong" for my husband. If you _can_ be or strong for someone, and you choose not to, that would be selfish. But, I literally cannot. I don't believe I have that choice to make. 

It's not that I don't love my husband enough to want to stay for him. It's not that I don't care about him enough to want to be strong for him. It has nothing to do with how much I love him. It's also not a problem with understanding him or empathizing with him, I don't think. Cognitively, I understand that my suicide would deeply hurt my husband. I understand that if he were dying and I killed myself because of that, it would hasten his death and make his last moments nearly unbearable. And that is precisely why I've been brainstorming ways to make myself not feel any emotional pain, like training myself to dissociate on-cue, so as to make myself able to physically be with him and not cause him any more suffering.

But what I think people are missing when they see my actions and thoughts as selfish is that pain makes people do things they wouldn't otherwise do. Under the influence of torture, physical or mental, people will confess to crimes they haven't committed. They will throw their loved ones to the wolves. They will denounce their God/s, their parents, their children, and their country. They will try to kill themselves using literally any material they can get their hands on. People under extreme distress will do literally _any_thing to make it stop, with no regard for anything else whatsoever. And would you blame them for it? The situations that lead people to such drastic measures are horrific in ways most of us will never be able to comprehend.

My own threshold for emotional pain is so low that the slightest thing feels like torture. I will beg for death, denounce everything I hold dear, and wrack my brain for every possible escape route at even the _suggestion_ of losing a loved one. That is definitely my problem to solve, not anyone else's, and I need to work through it as well and as soon as I possibly can so I no longer want to flee or die because of relatively small provocations. That's why I'm in DBT. I'm working on it, because someday I hope to not want to die so easily. I _need_ to work on it to be able to survive in this world.

But even though my overblown emotions are my problem to solve, the idea of losing someone causes me to react with the same neurochemicals, physical reactions, and mental states as someone undergoing actual torture. I cry, I feel sick, I can't eat or sleep, I have panic attacks, my heart races, I sweat profusely, I bargain with Fate, I want to kill myself, etc. etc. If you wouldn't blame someone undergoing any other kind of mental torture for what they say or do under the influence of that torment, why would you blame me? It just doesn't seem fair that people would feel bitter about my emotional reactions, because when I react that way I am deeply in pain, and I can't yet help that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ella,

The whole point of love is to go above and beyond. Many years ago my girls had guinea pigs. One got a very unusual respiratory issue and due to the medicine it stopped eating on its own. For six months me and the girls set a schedule to feed the piggy via syringe using a special food. 5 or 6 times a day. After it went over the rainbow bridge the veterinarian said this was unheard of and we did very well. We gave the piggy an extra six months and improved her quality of life. But it also gave us the opportunity to learn to care for something very special.

You have to do your best with the cards you're dealt.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

So, at the end of the day, you are not really a BPD'er? Everyone has traits at one time or another.

Everyone has feelings that they can't help. You just have to have the fortitude to deal with them. 

Two years ago I watched my baby brother die from cancer. And when I say I watched, I mean I was there when he died. I hated it. I didn't want to be there. It cut me to the core. BUT, I know if I hadn't been there, it would have hurt worse. I was supposed to protect him. That's my job as the big sister. No one has been able to assuage that guilt. 

I hope you find it in yourself to be there for your husband if he should ever need you to. Much as he is there for you. 

As it is, seeing as how he is in no imminent danger, you should use your time to work on yourself as much as possible.

I wish you luck.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

pidge70 said:


> So, at the end of the day, you are not really a BPD'er? Everyone has traits at one time or another.
> 
> Everyone has feelings that they can't help. You just have to have the fortitude to deal with them.
> 
> ...


My therapist has said I have fairly strong traits of BPD, seven of nine of them, and that DBT would help. I believe she is of the mindset that you don't tell someone with BPD that they "have BPD" as such. She has said she doesn't like to use labels. But I've come as close to diagnosis as I can get, I think.

Regarding your brother, I'm very sorry that happened to you. You said it would have been worse for you if you hadn't been there, even though being there hurt you deeply and severely. You said you knew in your heart that it would have been worse. How did you know? How were you able to say, "This is hell, but not being there would be a worse hell"? How did you make yourself at some kind of peace with that decision? 

Because unfortunately, my current mindset is, "Not being there is hell, but being there for my husband and watching him suffer would be a worse hell," and since that is not helping my husband and it also makes people dislike me, I need to somehow rationalize staying. I need to talk myself into staying next time something tragic happens or could potentially happen. How would I begin to make not escaping the situation feel worth all the pain?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

*The &quot;official&quot; BPD thread*



EllaSuaveterre said:


> @katiecrna You are right about the morality aspect. Morally speaking, the best course of action would be to stay. And watch him die. Slowly. I've recently learned that there's less than a 1% chance of this happening, but if it ever comes to it again, I think I know what I will do.
> 
> I have come to the decision that I will stay for him, and possibly that I will watch him die. But you cannot ask me to do so with a smile on my face or with bravery in my heart because I can't control that. However, I'm considering the idea of forcing myself somehow into a voluntary state of derealization, so I can do what he needs me to do without feeling any grief or reacting to any upsetting circumstances.
> 
> ...




I think that recognizing that your always the victim is important because understanding is key if you ever want to better yourself. You can't control the situation, you can only control and better yourself. 

I 100% understand how you could of had an affair on your husband. 

You do lack empathy, and you are selfish. I feel really bad for your husband actually. 

With all the therapy you do, and all the research and over thinking you do it's actually crazy that you guys haven't picked up on the victim mentality sooner and started to work on that.

You may think you love your husband but you love yourself way more. It's all about you. If you love your husband you would do what's best for him not what's easiest for you. If you loved your husband you wouldn't steal away the attention and empathy from him, you would focus on him.

How would you like it if your cystic fibrosis causes you medical problems and your husband decides he can't stand to see you get sick so he leaves you? 

Love does not mean you abandon them when they are in need. Again, it's not about you and how you feel.

This is triggering me because it takes me back to being exhausted trying to explain Normal empathetic things to my husband without him understanding. It's exhausting. And what I learned is that some people are just selfish and no explaining empathy or respect or love will get them to understand it. I tried so hard to explain these basic human things to my husband and he would come back with the weirdest rationale, explanation for why what he say and does it not wrong. It was then that I realized that he wasn't being s jerk on purpose that he was very mentally sick, and completely selfish.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

*Re: The &quot;official&quot; BPD thread*



katiecrna said:


> I think that recognizing that your always the victim is important because understanding is key if you ever want to better yourself. You can't control the situation, you can only control and better yourself.


That last bit is really true. I must strive to control myself when I can. The key words there being the last three.



katiecrna said:


> I 100% understand how you could of had an affair on your husband.
> 
> You do lack empathy, and you are selfish. I feel really bad for your husband actually.


He doesn't feel bad for himself, though. I've asked him. He says he regards himself as very lucky to have me as his wife, and he is grateful for me, as I am for him. How and why he can say this, I do not know, but when the gods send you a blessing you don't ask why it was sent.



katiecrna said:


> With all the therapy you do, and all the research and over thinking you do it's actually crazy that you guys haven't picked up on the victim mentality sooner and started to work on that


.

Actually, my therapist has touched on it, fleetingly and with great sensitivity and compassion. The closest thing she's said to anything you're saying is:

"You used to be very sick indeed, and at one point you very much did need to be taken care of 24/7. But now you are older, wiser, and more removed from the trauma of your childhood, and of your later abuse, and now you can begin to learn, little by little, how to cope with being better. It takes coping to learn how to deal with that, too, because the coping mechanisms you learned back then may not always help you feel better now. You will never have to be some great independent CEO power-woman, but with time, perhaps you can learn to be _slightly_ more independent and trust yourself. You'll always have others to lean on, but those other people will be proud of you and respect you when you find you don't need them all of the time, but only some of the time."

I took it to heart and I'm trying every week to push myself. I got so much of Mr. S's medical paperwork sorted yesterday, and today I'm attending class in spite of having had no sleep because I was flashbacking all night. Ordinarily I wouldn't try either thing, so I'm pushing myself to tolerate pain, in small ways.



katiecrna said:


> You may think you love your husband but you love yourself way more. It's all about you. If you love your husband you would do what's best for him not what's easiest for you. If you loved your husband you wouldn't steal away the attention and empathy from him, you would focus on him.


As it turns out, at this particular moment, I AM doing what's best for him rather than what would cause me the least pain. I did decide to stay. As to stealing attention and empathy, I have no idea to what you're referring. I ask for empathy here on this website, but when he needs it from the people in both our lives, I back off and let him have top priority.



katiecrna said:


> How would you like it if your cystic fibrosis causes you medical problems and your husband decides he can't stand to see you get sick so he leaves you?
> 
> Love does not mean you abandon them when they are in need. Again, it's not about you and how you feel.


It's not cystic fibrosis, it's cerebral palsy. And, honestly, as I've been asked this question before, my answer is that I would be devastated, rocked to the core, and I might commit suicide... yet, I would understand. I do not have the fortitude to look after someone like myself, which has been my running statement for weeks now. So, if he got tired of me and of my physical and emotional pain, I would easily be able to see how he could be tired. I wouldn't really blame him for leaving, even through my abject agony at his leaving. Other people have tended to leave me, and I've never blamed them for it. I understand I'm very needy, and that's not an easy thing for people to live with. It is my good fortune to find someone who has put up with me for six years.



katiecrna said:


> This is triggering me because it takes me back to being exhausted trying to explain Normal empathetic things to my husband without him understanding. It's exhausting. And what I learned is that some people are just selfish and no explaining empathy or respect or love will get them to understand it. I tried so hard to explain these basic human things to my husband and he would come back with the weirdest rationale, explanation for why what he say and does it not wrong. It was then that I realized that he wasn't being s jerk on purpose that he was very mentally sick, and completely selfish.


I'm genuinely sorry you're triggered. I hope the rest of the day goes better for you.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Over coffee tonight, I showed my lovely Mr. Suaveterre the last couple posts on this thread, and asked him if he'd ever felt sorry he'd married me. He said, "No, not ever. I know how it hurts you when people say things about you on the internet. For the record, I don't think you're selfish at all." I can remember from my first year or so of marriage that he wasn't always as good at validating me as he is now, but I don't remember when and how he learned. Anyway, it doesn't much matter because _holy gods_ is he ever good at it now. We made out right there and then, and then went for a walk in the autumn moonlight. We should take long walks together more often.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

https://www.google.com/amp/nypost.c...st-wants-the-best-for-you-scientists-say/amp/


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I know you didn't mean to upset me so much as change me, but I had many such people in my life who took it several steps further than you, and were often outright abusive. Yet, they genuinely didn't mean to hurt me _deeply_. Just a little, enough to teach me a lesson. The disastrous results of these such relationships has taught me to tolerate little of tough love, if any at all. 

Love shouldn't be hard to swallow. I believe that if you truly care for someone in any capacity, even an enemy, you should be able to express your concern over their behavior without hurting them. In my life, personally, I've been that person before who put proving a point or teaching a lesson over respecting someone's feelings, and I almost lost a friend over it. That friend wouldn't speak to me for 6 months, and when she came back, her own experience had taught her what my insults were trying to and failed. It still took her a while to forgive me for priotizing my morality over her emotions. From then on I've tried to remind myself that if I cannot demonstrate a point to someone with kindness, it is either not worth showing or I'm not a good enough teacher to show it. Nowadays, I moderate a subreddit for Wayward spouses, and I put this philosophy into use every day as I and others strive to find that delicate balance between concern and degradation. So it can be done.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

@EllaSuaveterre I don’t think that forcing yourself into an unfeeling state is the answer. (It would also be noticeable.) I think focusing on the DBT is the way to go for now. These are the two books I have: 

https://www.amazon.com/Dialectical-Behavior-Therapy-Skills-Workbook/dp/1572245131/

https://www.amazon.com/Skills-Training-Handouts-Worksheets-Second/dp/1572307811/

There’s the one by Marsha (more geared towards therapists and such), but I’ve never bought it or even had the chance to look through it:

https://www.amazon.com/DBT®-Skills-Training-Manual-Second/dp/1462516998/


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

@EllaSuaveterre I agree with you that we should always try to be kind. Even if someone is an enemy, if there’s nothing that we can contribute other than harm/hurt, it’s best to just turn away.

I hope you know that my words are never intended to hurt you. I try not to hurt anyone if I can help it.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@soulpotato don't worry at all about hurting me. Nothing you've said has upset me in the slightest. =)


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

While Mr. Suaveterre and I were discussing his health issues and finances, he said I worry so much about things that I make him question reality. As in, he'll tell me something that will scare me and make me pull away from him, raise my voice a little, etc. And he'll wonder why I'm so scared and then he'll start to worry too because maybe it really is worse than he's picturing it to be. He asked my why I was freaking out and told me to stop.

I tried to rein it in. I told him, in the most monotone, flat affect I could manage, "I'm not freaking out. I'm fine." that I was very sorry about that, that I certainly didn't mean to gaslight him. I told him that considering I was the one with the mental disorder that causes me to want to react very strongly to everything, and he isn't, his perception of reality was probably more correct than mine the vast, vast majority of the time.

I had to really bite my tongue to keep from asking him for a divorce. I'm already gaslighting him and I didn't even know it. We've only been married six years. If I'm abusing him and I'm not even conscious of it, we won't last another six. He will not love me for very much longer at all, if he even does now. I had to remind myself that I don't really want to leave him, I want to leave the conversation and the situation and the reality of the fact that he feels gaslit. 

I don't want to waste twelve years of my life, even if it's with someone I truly love, if reality is going to be scary and we're going to have arguments and the relationship will eventually end. But, of course, all long-term relationships have all three of those things. So to avoid them I'd have to avoid serious relationships altogether. I don't want that either. So I have to stay and "tolerate the distress". But I can't I can't I can't I can't _I can't_.

I bid him goodnight. Monotone. I said I loved him. Monotone. He said he loved me, and he smiled at me. I tried to smile back.

How??

I don't understand how we can argue and have difficult, scary conversations, and how he can confess to feeling ABUSED BY ME and still honestly believe he loves me. 

I'm so tired of trying to be responsible. I'm not good at it and I freak out too much. I don't know if I want to get a divorce or kill myself or just pack up and start walking in any direction until my legs give out. I want to do almost anything but sit here and live with it and have to get up tomorrow and call doctors and try not to worry and try to take care of things. I don't want this. I don't want this. I don't want this.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> While Mr. Suaveterre and I were discussing his health issues and finances, he said I worry so much about things that I make him question reality. As in, he'll tell me something that will scare me and make me pull away from him, raise my voice a little, etc. And he'll wonder why I'm so scared and then he'll start to worry too because maybe it really is worse than he's picturing it to be. He asked my why I was freaking out and told me to stop.
> 
> I tried to rein it in. I told him, in the most monotone, flat affect I could manage, "I'm not freaking out. I'm fine." that I was very sorry about that, that I certainly didn't mean to gaslight him. I told him that considering I was the one with the mental disorder that causes me to want to react very strongly to everything, and he isn't, his perception of reality was probably more correct than mine the vast, vast majority of the time.
> 
> ...


You sound pretty good at "responsibility" actually. Every response you had to your initial overwhelming fear was the correct response. Seems you are pretty adept at identifying thoughts driven by fear and not acting on them. You are just afraid and that makes you uncomfortable. That is OK. Everyone is afraid from time to time, leaving your marriage isn't going to change that, fear is a part of life. Just accept that you are afraid, accept that it not fun and feels uncomfortable and continue. But also try to remind yourself that this too shall pass. 

Finally do yourself a favor and tell you counselor about being afraid and how hard it is to deal with being uncomfortable. Ask her to help you to tolerate being uncomfortable more. Ask her if there are any techniques that you can use to get you more used to being uncomfortable. 

Ella does you counselor ever challenge you? Have you told her how much you hate the responsibility of being an adult?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> You sound pretty good at it actually. Every response you had to your initial overwhelming fear was the correct response. Seems you are pretty adept at identifying thoughts driven by fear. You are just afraid and that makes you uncomfortable. That is OK. Everyone is afraid from time to time, leaving your marriage isn't going to change that, fear is a part of life. Just accept that you are afraid, accept that it not fun and feels uncomfortable and continue. But also try to remind yourself that this too shall pass.
> 
> Finally do yourself a favor and tell you counselor about being afraid and how hard it is to deal with being uncomfortable. Ask her to help you to tolerate being uncomfortable more. Ask her if there are any techniques that you can use to get you more used to being uncomfortable.
> 
> Ella does you counselor ever challenge you? Have you told her how much you hate the responsibility of being an adult?


She knows about my fears, yes. I told her weeks ago I wanted to focus on being less overwhelmed. Distress tolerance is what we're currently working on actually. Today we made a safety plan. What to do when I'm stressed instead of anything rash like self-harm, starvation, screaming at people, or running away (physically or metaphorically).

I only thought of my list of things to do AFTER all of this had happened and I had finished crying about it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Distress tolerance is what we're currently working on actually. Today we made a safety plan. What to do when I'm stressed instead of anything rash like self-harm, starvation, screaming at people, or running away (physically or metaphorically).
> 
> I only thought of my list of things to do AFTER all of this had happened and I had finished crying about it.


You are stronger then you think. You love your husband enough that you didn't scream at him you controlled your thoughts. Instead of seeing this as another failure why not see it as some sign of growth. Rome wasn't built in a day right? 

The thing about getting older and experience is that though a lot of this stuff seems overwhelming and hard now it gets easier. I go back to my piano metaphor that I bring up from time to time here. Practicing is hard at first, but it gets easier and once you start to see results it makes it even exciting. This will be the same for this kind of stuff. It's going to get easier, it is not always going to feel like this as long a you keep working, again you are stronger then you give yourself credit for.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> You are stronger then you think. You love your husband enough that you didn't scream at him you controlled your thoughts. Instead of seeing this as another failure why not see it as some sign of growth. Rome wasn't built in a day right?
> 
> The thing about getting older and experience is that though a lot of this stuff seems overwhelming and hard now it gets easier. I go back to my piano metaphor that I bring up from time to time here. Practicing is hard at first, but it gets easier and once you start to see results it makes it even exciting. This will be the same for this kind of stuff. It's going to get easier, it is not always going to feel like this as long a you keep working, again you are stronger then you give yourself credit for.


Thank you. I'll try to start thinking like that.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Thank you. I'll try to start thinking like that.


What about exposure therapy, does she have any thoughts on that?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> What about exposure therapy, does she have any thoughts on that?



In a way, what I'm undergoing now is exposure therapy. I have considered trying to put myself in situations that feel neither completely safe nor completely overwhelming, but to be honest, I'd rather not when I already do these things every day and have been for a couple months now.


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