# So Now I Think I'll Be Sneaky...



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

In this thread, http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/265362-am-i-being-out-line.html I discussed a dinner date a business friend of my wife's has asked her out on. As always, solid advice.

Took a turn for the worse this evening...

The guy she had the EA with, Sam, will be there at the conference and a friend of my wife's from across the state has asked her to buy one of his books for her. Despite our no contact rule, she agreed to as she felt it is harmless.

So now I have 2 issues going at once and have a plan...

She has a new Samsung S5 phone and it has a VAR app on it. The icon is tiny and I am sure she will never notice it. When she leaves (very early) I will simply turn it on and then off when she gets home. She goes to bed before me and I can plug in headphones and see what we have.

To be honest, I feel like a total jerk being so sneaky but I simply cannot find it within me to just stand idly by.


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## HHB (Nov 21, 2014)

Excellent!


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## Muse1976 (Apr 25, 2015)

I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation. 



thatbpguy said:


> In this thread, http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/265362-am-i-being-out-line.html I discussed a dinner date a business friend of my wife's has asked her out on. As always, solid advice.
> 
> Took a turn for the worse this evening...
> 
> ...


Sorry, but at this point I would go full global thermonuclear on her. preferably in the worst possible way. Salt the earth for added effect!


Just my opinion.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

I am so sorry. UGH.

I think snooping is the best option. I would also plan on going with her to the conference, if she has to go.

I really hope that the snooping turns out nothing of substance, and that she is just really clueless right now. This sounds like a dumb question, but does she realize that she had an EA and how damaging that was? Or does she think that because she caught it and stopped it, that it was just not a big deal?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

RoseAglow said:


> I am so sorry. UGH.
> 
> I think snooping is the best option. I would also plan on going with her to the conference, if she has to go.
> 
> I really hope that the snooping turns out nothing of substance, and that she is just really clueless right now. This sounds like a dumb question, but does she realize that she had an EA and how damaging that was? Or does she think that because she caught it and stopped it, that it was just not a big deal?


First, so no one misunderstands me, I do trust "her". But one of her quirks is that she simply refuses to believe other guys have designs on her. She doesn't get it. And that is what leads her into trouble.

Second, RoseAglow, to answer your question, her first husband was brutally abusive to her. Her twins tell horror stories of the mental cruelty she endured. He got full testicular cancer at age 25 and he stated to her there would be no more sex. And until she fled at age 36, there was none. And she never cheated on him. All that to say she acutely compartmentalizes things fast. She made a mistake, took ownership for it and moved on- quickly. She doesn't dwell on anything for any length of time.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> In this thread, http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/265362-am-i-being-out-line.html I discussed a dinner date a business friend of my wife's has asked her out on. As always, solid advice.
> 
> Took a turn for the worse this evening...
> 
> ...


Ehh... the memory will likely fill up long before she gets home.

Also keep in mind that she may wind up turning off the phone at some point, especially if she's flying.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

thatbpguy said:


> But one of her quirks is that she simply refuses to believe other guys have designs on her. She doesn't get it. And that is what leads her into trouble.


I don't believe that. It doesn't makes sense. A history of abuse can make a woman more savvy.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

thatbpguy said:


> Despite our no contact rule, she agreed to as she felt it is harmless.
> 
> So now I have 2 issues going at once


Infuriating and not acceptable

I would say you have a lot more than 2 issues.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Brigit said:


> I don't believe that. It doesn't makes sense. A history of abuse can make a woman more savvy.


Normally I would agree completely. But she just takes it and keeps going. In our marriage I have tried to instill some "stand up for yourself" in her but have had only mild success.

That said, she is very intelligent. She has a Masters degree, is dedicated to charity/volunteer work, but just has major quirks.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

thread the needle said:


> Infuriating and not acceptable
> 
> I would say you have a lot more than 2 issues.


Oh I think just 2. Her point is this is a very public conference and the EA guy may not even be at the book table, and even if he is she's buying a book and then leaving. What could happen? The last time they met at a 3-day conference he pestered her nonstop and I had to call him and offer to come make a painful visit (TAM thread). So she is convinced nothing will go awry. But if he does make his usual advances she may either not realize it or tell me. So I am resorting to the VAR.


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## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

I bet the phones battery will drain also if you you run VAR on it. 

Do you have boundaries in the relationship?
Stop thinking women are innocent.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

thatbpguy said:


> Oh I think just 2. Her point is this is a very public conference and the EA guy may not even be at the book table, and even if he is she's buying a book and then leaving. What could happen? The last time they met at a 3-day conference he pestered her nonstop and I had to call him and offer to come make a painful visit (TAM thread). *So she is convinced nothing will go awry.* But if he does make his usual advances she may either not realize it or tell me. So I am resorting to the VAR.


Bolded - She is naïve as you stated so what she thinks and her point on this matter is irrelevant as she is not equipped to comprehend it. She also not equipped to address it as you stated. 

With all due respect to you, you seem way too passive setting reasonable boundaries for a wife that is admittedly naïve and weak to stop advances in a situation that provides plenty of opportunity for horny males with no sense of boundaries. I would suggest you consider these other men have also noted she is naïve and weak to stop their advances.

The weak boundaries have resulted in an EA, a casual, passive breaking of a more than vital no contact agreement, the need for recent threats of violence toward her EA partner, and continued naiveté about him, as well as another man suspiciously and unnecessarily insisting that he needs to speak to your wife at a one on one dinner using business as an EXCUSE to corner your naïve weak wife into an environment well known for seduction. 

As I posted in the other thread, please wake up. In my opinion, you are being too passive and the VAR is unfortunate as it is dishonest and could blow up in your face if you get caught and it is likely going to run out of memory before she returns. 

I am also curious if it will record conversations well enough for you to hear it when it is on her purse, bag, pocket, car compartment, etc.

When she buys that book, he is likely to take it as interest in him and his thoughts. He needs to be invisible to her to get the picture. She should have told her friend that buying the book would not be possible to protect your marriage and honor your feelings of betrayal and insecurity. Agreeing to get that book is insensitive to you to say the least. There are plenty of other people that can buy the book for this "friend" from your wife's former EA partner

I do not advocate OVER reacting. I also do not see any wisdom in UNDER reacting. I think you are so you are enabling your naïve weak wife to make decisions that put your marriage at risk and cause you to feel lousy and wastefully invest your energy into completely avoidable situations that your wife continues to put you both in. 

The "two" situations you are grappling with are all created from the weak, misunderstood, passive approach to boundaries. They will continue until the boundary setting is less passive and is addressed once and for all.

Best wishes with it. I am sure you have it in you, but the higher, more honest road is to address them head on instead of thru a flawed approach that involve deceit. Your wife does not appear to be a bad person as much as she is naïve and weak. Those are flaws build from innocence but they need to be addressed head on all the same.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

thatbpguy said:


> Oh I think just 2. Her point is this is a very public conference and the EA guy may not even be at the book table, and even if he is she's buying a book and then leaving. What could happen? The last time they met at a 3-day conference he pestered her nonstop and I had to call him and offer to come make a painful visit (TAM thread). So she is convinced nothing will go awry. But if he does make his usual advances she may either not realize it or tell me. So I am resorting to the VAR.


Here's the thing though, and we all know this: this guy, if he's there, is going to see your wife as coming to him. From his POV, "I'm buying the book for a friend" is an excuse to see him, to interact with him, regardless of what you've said to him in the past. You're not there. She is, and buying his book "for a friend".

Quirks aside, this shouldn't be happening. My wife is similar to yours, in that she doesn't see the forest for the trees sometimes when it comes to other men. And yet sometimes she does, but to her, it's under control. Nothing she can't handle. etc etc etc.

When this type of scenario started happening to me/us years ago, I did the same thing - made excuses for her. She doesn't get it. She doesn't see what they're doing. She's oblivious that Joe Blow clearly wants to bang her. You know what? She may have been - to a degree. But the rest of her knew full well what designs Joe Blow had on her. But in her mind, she was in control, it was harmless, she would never let anything happen, and besides, it felt good to get attention of that kind, it made her feel desirable.

For me, it's not a question of trusting my wife to not cross THE line. I knew then, as I know now, that she's not out looking. But she was still crossing SOME lines. In her mind, she believes she would never, ever go that far. But as we all know, things "happen", even to people who have the best of intentions.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think you should have an honest, open conversation with your wife, including confessing that you were planning to turn on the var on her phone.

You two need to come up with a plan for dealing with this situation that satisfies both of you, and leaves you each with more trust and confidence in the other. Win/Win, or No Deal.


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## jin (Sep 9, 2014)

If you plan to snoop a better option would be to install an app that will allow remote control. I suggest cerberus.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You should book a trip to the bunny ranch and tell her not to worry that you have it all under control.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

knightRider said:


> I bet the phones battery will drain also if you you run VAR on it.
> 
> Do you have boundaries in the relationship?
> Stop thinking women are innocent.


This is a brand new phone and the VAR runs for 24 hours. I will personally see to it her phone is 100% charged. Battery life isn't a problem. In fact, since I found out about all this a couple of weeks ago I set my tablet VAR up every morning and it uses hardly any battery to run it. Very passive system. She has no idea it's even on.

We do have boundaries. She is total (or supposed to be ) NC with this Sam idiot. But she works from home and is deeply involved in her writing stuff so she attends numerous writing conferences and seminars. So the usual stuff about one-on-one meetings...

And why would I think women are innocent? They betray as much as men do.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

alexm said:


> Here's the thing though, and we all know this: this guy, if he's there, is going to see your wife as coming to him. From his POV, "I'm buying the book for a friend" is an excuse to see him, to interact with him, regardless of what you've said to him in the past. You're not there. She is, and buying his book "for a friend".


That is a good point and I hadn't thought of it.



alexm said:


> Quirks aside, this shouldn't be happening. My wife is similar to yours, in that she doesn't see the forest for the trees sometimes when it comes to other men. And yet sometimes she does, but to her, it's under control. Nothing she can't handle. etc etc etc.


Exactly! She just doesn't see it coming. And if so, she is oblivious until it's too late.



alexm said:


> When this type of scenario started happening to me/us years ago, I did the same thing - made excuses for her. She doesn't get it. She doesn't see what they're doing. She's oblivious that Joe Blow clearly wants to bang her. You know what? She may have been - to a degree. But the rest of her knew full well what designs Joe Blow had on her. But in her mind, she was in control, it was harmless, she would never let anything happen, and besides, it felt good to get attention of that kind, it made her feel desirable.
> 
> For me, it's not a question of trusting my wife to not cross THE line. I knew then, as I know now, that she's not out looking. But she was still crossing SOME lines. In her mind, she believes she would never, ever go that far. But as we all know, things "happen", even to people who have the best of intentions.


Yep. I think this is about it. So as a result, she listens to me but thinks I'm being over reactive… Besides, she tells me, John (the dinner guy) is a business friend and this is business. My point to her is that he tells her, recently, about his crappy marriage, how nice you are... and now has to have this one-on-one dinner to discuss something that could be done any number of other ways. She doesn't believe me, but I think she will forgo the dinner if it is a one-on-one. I'll know a week from Saturday.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Hicks said:


> You should book a trip to the bunny ranch and tell her not to worry that you have it all under control.


You mean I have to back there _again_?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> In this thread, http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/265362-am-i-being-out-line.html I discussed a dinner date a business friend of my wife's has asked her out on. As always, solid advice.
> 
> Took a turn for the worse this evening...
> 
> ...


What part of NC did your W not understand? Where is the consequence for breaking this one rule? A VAR on the phone?


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## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> This is a brand new phone and the VAR runs for 24 hours. I will personally see to it her phone is 100% charged. Battery life isn't a problem. In fact, since I found out about all this a couple of weeks ago I set my tablet VAR up every morning and it uses hardly any battery to run it. Very passive system. She has no idea it's even on.
> 
> We do have boundaries. She is total (or supposed to be ) NC with this Sam idiot. But she works from home and is deeply involved in her writing stuff so she attends numerous writing conferences and seminars. So the usual stuff about one-on-one meetings...
> 
> And why would I think women are innocent? They betray as much as men do.


Here for ya dude. I see parallels with my Mrs, so maybe I'm feeling it too


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> What part of NC did your W not understand? Where is the consequence for breaking this one rule? A VAR on the phone?


They go to the same conferences, so contact is going to happen in that sense. But, she is not to engage in any conversation with him. Period.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

thread the needle said:


> When she buys that book, he is likely to take it as interest in him and his thoughts. He needs to be invisible to her to get the picture.


:iagree:

I think most men would read it as an invitation to get back together.


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

Part of the deal for R with my H after his EA was (and still is forever until the end of time) NO CONTACT. NO. CONTACT. I repeat, he is to never, ever, ever speak, write, text or breathe the same air as that woman. That is a condition of me staying married to him. If he came to me with this lame story your wife is giving...I'd tell him to have fun and I'll have the divorce papers ready when he returns.

I was always one of those "nice, understanding" wives but now when it comes to my marriage...NO. And guess what, my H is OK with that now. He gets it. He realizes the importance of boundaries.

Please stop treating your wife as a special snowflake who might melt if you tell her no. She needs to suck it up and put her marriage before her writing boyfriends. And you need to play the "villain" until her thought process is corrected.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Please read my response in your other thread. I do not believe that she is unaware of men and whats going on as you seem to think.


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

thread the needle said:


> When she buys that book, he is likely to take it as interest in him and his thoughts. He needs to be invisible to her to get the picture.


seriously...what, doesn't your wife's friend have an Amazon account to buy books?? or isn't it available in some other way??


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

yeah_right said:


> Part of the deal for R with my H after his EA was (and still is forever until the end of time) NO CONTACT. NO. CONTACT. I repeat, he is to never, ever, ever speak, write, text or breathe the same air as that woman. That is a condition of me staying married to him. If he came to me with this lame story your wife is giving...I'd tell him to have fun and I'll have the divorce papers ready when he returns.
> 
> I was always one of those "nice, understanding" wives but now when it comes to my marriage...NO. And guess what, my H is OK with that now. He gets it. He realizes the importance of boundaries.
> 
> Please stop treating your wife as a special snowflake who might melt if you tell her no. She needs to suck it up and put her marriage before her writing boyfriends. And you need to play the "villain" until her thought process is corrected.


:iagree:



manfromlamancha said:


> Please read my response in your other thread. I do not believe that she is unaware of men and whats going on as you seem to think.


:iagree:

Do you honestly think she is that naive? I don't think she is at all. She knows what she is doing and isn't putting the marriage first.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

ReidWright said:


> seriously...what, doesn't your wife's friend have an Amazon account to buy books?? or isn't it available in some other way??


At these conferences authors sell books to each other for a very cheap price- or even exchange books. It's an inside thing I'll never understand. My wife manages to get free books all the time.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She wants to be accepted by her fellow writers. That leads to issues.


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

It makes me sad for you both that she would consider a book discount to be more important than the feelings of the husband she hurt with her affair.


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

yeah_right said:


> It makes me sad for you both that she would consider a book discount to be more important than the feelings of the husband she hurt with her affair.


hey, ten bucks is ten bucks! isn't that worth a marriage?

:scratchhead:

the 'no' in 'no contact' is pretty frick'n clear. she's an author, and doesn't know the meaning of the word?

have another friend pick up a freebie book from Casanova


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

thatbpguy said:


> Exactly! She just doesn't see it coming. And if so, she is oblivious until it's too late.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. I think this is about it. So as a result, she listens to me but thinks I'm being over reactive… Besides, she tells me, John (the dinner guy) is a business friend and this is business. My point to her is that he tells her, recently, about his crappy marriage, how nice you are... and now has to have this one-on-one dinner to discuss something that could be done any number of other ways. She doesn't believe me, but I think she will forgo the dinner if it is a one-on-one. I'll know a week from Saturday.


Here's the thing - they aren't oblivious to it. I promise you. They know what's going on, and that the other person has an ulterior motive, or an agenda.

What they are oblivious to is this: their own control over the situation, for starters, and also the optics of it all.

So take this very scenario of your wife possibly going to dinner with this guy. She knows what he's interested in, BUT, she believes in her heart that that's not the sole reason for this dinner. There IS business to discuss, among other things. And hey, dinner out with a fellow writer to talk shop. That is how she's seeing this, but is also conscious of the "other" issue, trust me.

Therefore, in her mind, SHE is making it about other things, not about the elephant in the room. She's confident she can deflect his advances. More importantly, she's confident (100%) that she would never ever cheat on you. She may find this man repulsive in that way. He may not be somebody she'd entertain dating even if she were single. She's going for other reasons, and in her mind, there's nothing wrong with that - which is true, to a point.

But she's not oblivious to that guy, or the other guy. To her, it's all a non-issue because she's not interested in them in that way, she's confident there's nothing they can say or do that will MAKE her interested in them, and she wouldn't ever go behind your back anyway. This is the "not seeing the forest for the trees" bit. And more than that, she probably enjoys being around other men who clearly desire her. From her POV, there's nothing wrong with it, because she's not the one doing something wrong. She's just the recipient of these compliments or general interest.

What some people fail to take into account is their partners view of this behaviour. How it makes them feel. That, if married, one should always be 100% clear that that is the case and to leave me alone in that regard. That to many people (men or women) not saying "no" is almost the same as saying "yes", or "maybe if you try a little harder". That every little thing one does (like buy a book from this guy) can, and will be construed as interest by them, whether it is or not.

Things like this would be so much simpler if people had no issue with saying "no, not interested" instead of just being passive and hoping it will go away. In these cases, your wife doesn't want to do that because it will impact her little circle of writer buddies. My wife has a tough time doing it because it will impact her workplace relationships.

I've heard second-hand stories of my wife telling guys to F off (and in one case threatening to knock some guys teeth out) if they don't leave her alone. But those are strangers. Any guy at work who gets a little too flirty with her, and she doesn't react in that way because she has to work with them, or their buddies, or otherwise see them every day.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

alexm said:


> Here's the thing - they aren't oblivious to it. I promise you. They know what's going on, and that the other person has an ulterior motive, or an agenda.
> 
> What they are oblivious to is this: their own control over the situation, for starters, and also the optics of it all.
> 
> ...


I have to say, that is a most remarkable post. _*Very*_ well put. 

Then I look at your avatar and say, "was that..."

But seriously, you really hit the nail on the head.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

alexm said:


> Here's the thing - they aren't oblivious to it. I promise you. They know what's going on, and that the other person has an ulterior motive, or an agenda.
> 
> What they are oblivious to is this: their own control over the situation, for starters, and also the optics of it all.
> 
> ...


i view this as a slippery slope for sure. maybe i am jaded becasue this sort of thing is exactly how my X started her affair. a seemingly innocent client....that ended up in her pants.....later after it was all blown open....she admitted she "knew" he was after her all along...just never acted on it.

i think its sad you are going to this event....not because you really want to be close to your wife....but more of a chaperon or trying to make your presence know around this guy. obviously you don't fully trust your wife and with good reason.

i think the thing to do is not go...give her some rope to hang herself kind of thing. maybe she will do the right thing....then again maybe not....


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

good luck bp


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

alexm said:


> Here's the thing - they aren't oblivious to it. I promise you. They know what's going on, and that the other person has an ulterior motive, or an agenda.
> 
> What they are oblivious to is this: their own control over the situation, for starters, and also the optics of it all.
> 
> ...


alex

but aren't there all sorts of ways a woman can communicate noninterest to a mr. flirty at work? diplomatic ways, but pretty clear....
e.g. she could put a couple pictures of you on her desk. figure all sorts of ways to turn a conversation toward mention of you...
e.g. guy invites her to offsite lunch she says "oh thanks but im swamped with work here. my husband and I like that restaurant though. great food; he thinks its a little pricey...OH SHOOT that reminds me I need to call him right now. his mother is coming to see us and I need to tell him I can't pick her up he has to......"

not a hard skill to learn is it??


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Is it really worth staying with someone you can't trust? No amount of snooping will prove she isn't cheating - just that she didn't cheat this particular time.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Just saw this thread today. 

To me, no contact means no contact. Now far be it for me of all people to throw stones. But I'd be pretty upset if my wife had to go to an event where the OM was at. Now in my case he got a job with a different company, so bumping into him would not be easy. In your case it almost seems that she is going just to grab a book on discount for a friend, and odds seem at least 50:50 he will be there. To me she shouldn't be going.

I don't think she is going to cheat on you. But what if she comes home and says, yes, I saw him but didn't speak to him.

You check the VAR and you hear her say Hello, nice to see you. Now you have a huge problem on hand. No she didn't sleep with him, but did speak to him.

If the trip isn't completely necessary, then it shouldn't be placed ahead of your peace of mind. Does she understand this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Sheez, you really don't trust her ey?
Well, tis not your fault really, still, if you are caught...










So, don't get caught!


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