# Atheist / Agnostic Betrayed Spouses



## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

I'm not religious. I'm realistic though. I married the wrong guy, he cheated, I'm divorced. My life goes on. 

I like life and curious as to where mine will lead. Nothing turns out as we plan. 

I was a great wife to my spouse and never had any guilt and that helped me a lot. I can keep my head held high and know I did the very best I could. My devotion was given to the wrong person. 

No religion needed for me. I'm at peace with myself.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I always ask the universe to deliver me from pain and to my path.

I trust in the flow of energy and that all beings have a purpose within this life cycle.

I am not atheist, I don't think...I am perhaps agnostic? I know I'm not Christian or any religion. I do believe in energy flow and that negativity begets negativity. So I try to remain positive even through the shet.

I try to focus on my path and working towards peace within myself for clarity and fulfillment. I remind myself that I, too, am part of this universe and my energy also flows. 

I don't believe in some God. Or that he had people write a book. No. You don't have to be religious to be a good person or have values.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Q tip said:


> I always wondered where atheists get their core values. What is the basis of their values. Don't kill, don't steal, don't covet the neighbors wife are all religious values. So, no worries if you're an atheist? Just wondering about the basis of core values assuming they are not religious. Assuming cheating violates religious beliefs, why would there be an issue with cheating.
> 
> I guess my question is,


I've never understood why people need to be told by a religious book not to kill, rape, steal, etc. If a religious book didn't tell you that, you'd do it? 

You don't need a religious book to get values. You don't need divine punishment or divine reward to get values. You need empathy and kindness. Doing something out of fear of violent repercussions is compliance, not morality.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

I'm a humanist. I believe everyone deserves respect, love, and basic civil rights.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Coffee Amore said:


> I've never understood why people need to be told by a religious book not to kill, rape, steal, etc. If a religious book didn't tell you that, you'd do it?
> 
> You don't need a religious book to get values. You don't need divine punishment or divine reward to get values. You need empathy and kindness. Doing something out of fear of violent repercussions is compliance, not morality.


I also love how some people twist everything around to "prove" their deity exists. Damn. So sick of that. lol But whatever...that's not the topic.

You are a humanist, Pam? So be a humanist and START WITH YOURSELF.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

I don't kill, lie, cheat, steal, rape because they are wrong to do. My parents instilled those values in me. If those values happen to coincide with religious values, great. 

You expect atheists to murder, or else they are hypocritical? How many millions of murders have been committed over the years - from 10000 BC to five minutes ago in the name of God?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm an @ss whole and I hate everyone  but we all have faith that the pain will go away.

Couldn't imagine that the pain doesn't go away... how phucked up would it be to believe the pain stays with you......I mean we gotta have faith that in time the pain will go away....or why else bother with living.

Besides Affaircare says the pain goes away so there!


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Pamvhv said:


> It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.



You can't be jealous of it if you don't value it, so perhaps you are not as much of an atheist as you think. Focus on delivering yourself from the pain. It can be hard to draw up logic and reason when you are hurting, but it can give you a path out of the pain into better relationships even if it does not medicate the pain in the moment. But perhaps knowing that your behavior and attitude will dramatically affect your future happiness can be an inspiration in itself?


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Q tip said:


> A slightly differ view...
> 
> I do appreciate atheists. They provide daily proof of God. They require God to exist with which then to not believe. If God did not exist, there would be no atheists.


You are a bit confused about what atheism is. Atheism is not the disbelief in a known god, it is the requirement that evidence be sufficiently shown before a fact/belief is considered true..




Q tip said:


> I always wondered where atheists get their core values. What is the basis of their values. Don't kill, don't steal, don't covet the neighbors wife are all religious values. So, no worries if you're an atheist? Just wondering about the basis of core values assuming they are not religious. Assuming cheating violates religious beliefs, why would there be an issue with cheating.


Atheists tend to be humanist that draw their values from observations of human well being. My own morality is based on human well being nuanced by human freedom. This is a long debated topic and is still raging today. 





Q tip said:


> I guess my question is, is there a non religious basis to have issues with cheating...
> 
> Any PhDs here? Not sure in what precisely.


Not a PHD, but I have an answer. 

Cheating hurts someone that you care about. Does there need to be more reasons?

How about cheating leads to financial problems from divorce, STD's, Trauma, unaffordable and unexpected children with poor parental support. 

I could go on. You don't need god to be good, you just need to not be an A$$.

Atheist tend to not experience imaginary suffering like guilt from eating pork, or from gay sex and the like.


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## Thinkitthrough (Sep 5, 2012)

My family comes from a small town in the Netherlands and medical dental care government run and paid for Health Care. My family's doctor was a man from the community. Having spent the better part of two days and a night keeping an injured young man alive, the family rushed in. When they say the lad was alive they all dropped to their knees and prayed "Oh thank you god for saving our boy." The Doctor made the comment that "when you save the person its all god, but if they die, it's a lousy Doctor."
I have grave concerns for any group claiming god's approval to ruin the lives of the people around them, to go to war, to deny health care to the poor and disenfranchised and call themselves holy. If they were atheist or agnostic doing it, it would be equally awful. If there is a god, my guess is he will claim he was misquoted.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

Thinkitthrough said:


> My family comes from a small town in the Netherlands and medical dental care government run and paid for Health Care. My family's doctor was a man from the community. Having spent the better part of two days and a night keeping an injured young man alive, the family rushed in. When they say the lad was alive they all dropped to their knees and prayed "Oh thank you god for saving our boy." The Doctor made the comment that "when you save the person its all god, but if they die, it's a lousy Doctor."
> I have grave concerns for any group claiming god's approval to ruin the lives of the people around them, to go to war, to deny health care to the poor and disenfranchised and call themselves holy. If they were atheist or agnostic doing it, it would be equally awful. If there is a god, my guess is he will claim he was misquoted.


My husband is Dutch. Most Dutch people I know are atheist.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Thinkitthrough said:


> My family comes from a small town in the Netherlands and medical dental care government run and paid for Health Care. My family's doctor was a man from the community. Having spent the better part of two days and a night keeping an injured young man alive, the family rushed in. When they say the lad was alive they all dropped to their knees and prayed "Oh thank you god for saving our boy." The Doctor made the comment that "when you save the person its all god, but if they die, it's a lousy Doctor."
> I have grave concerns for any group claiming god's approval to ruin the lives of the people around them, to go to war, to deny health care to the poor and disenfranchised and call themselves holy. If they were atheist or agnostic doing it, it would be equally awful. If there is a god, my guess is he will claim he was misquoted.


Dag,

This is the "playing tennis without a net" that Sam Harris refers to. Religious people thank god for the great and little good things that happen in their lives but ignore accountability for massive suffering visited on innocents throughout the world by both human driven and natural events.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> I always wondered where atheists get their core values. What is the basis of their values. Don't kill, don't steal, don't covet the neighbors wife are all religious values. So, no worries if you're an atheist? Just wondering about the basis of core values assuming they are not religious. Assuming cheating violates religious beliefs, why would there be an issue with cheating.


lol...seriously? Do you know anything about the history of christianity? Its really not that old of a religion. It certainly didn't invent the concept of morality or societal values. In fact, I'd have a pretty good argument that people following christianity have participated in more immorality...ie, bigotry, slavery, murder, rape, incest, infidelity, deceit, etc...than most major religions on the planet.

Long, long, long before christianity ever existed, there were long held societal laws based on the facts that human beings exist in communities. As such, rules or laws were made to enable that to happen smoothly that have become the basis or code over a long period of time for how we live today. Religions far older than christianity have kept those societal laws in place. In fact, most of the christian religion is ripped off from the Egyptians. Lets face it...humans have been making up gods for a long time.

That being said...christianity doesn't teach morality or even spirituality. There are billions of people in the world who don't follow it and live good, moral lives and help others.

I don't bash religious people but I'm not going to listen to some religious bigot bash the goodness of the non-religious because they don't understand basic history.



> What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.


I'm agnostic and admit that sometimes life is painful. But pain isn't always a negative, its often something you can learn from. I know a lot of religious people that pray and don't enjoy any happier a life than I have.

When someone bad happens. I let myself feel sad or mad...and then I put things into perspective. Life is wonderful...its an amazing gift. I have friends, family, a roof over my head, food, love, etc. I've lost people...I've moved through hard times...and all of it is making me evolve into a more complete person.

I can't imagine ever feeling jealous of anyone. But if you really were an atheist or an agnostic, praying would be out of the question because its simply dishonest. However, if you're questioning your set of beliefs, than maybe you should investigate another path....maybe believing in a religious is something that might work for you.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

No I can't believe in any deity. I just resent that people of faith have this thing they can believe takes care of them and guides them.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

I'm sure that I'm not the right person to respond to this post, but I'm going to try anyway. I'm a Christian and I was the WS in my marriage. Hence, the reason that I'm all wrong for this? 

You seem like a genuinely kind and caring person who is in a great deal of pain. I'm so sorry that you're hurting. Do you believe in Karma? What about positive and negative energy? You have contributed a lot of good things to the world. Perhaps, you can believe that the "good" you have contributed will come back to you in time. Hopefully, time that will help ease your pain. I wish I had more to offer. I'm so sorry.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

EI said:


> I'm sure that I'm not the right person to respond to this post, but I'm going to try anyway. I'm a Christian and I was the WS in my marriage. Hence, the reason that I'm all wrong for this?
> 
> You seem like a genuinely kind and caring person who is in a great deal of pain. I'm so sorry that you're hurting. Do you believe in Karma? What about positive and negative energy? You have contributed a lot of good things to the world. Perhaps, you can believe that the "good" you have contributed will come back to you in time. Hopefully, time that will help ease your pain. I wish I had more to offer. I'm so sorry.


Those are actually nice thoughts. I actually made a list of times I was less than kind in the past years and wondered if it was karma


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> No I can't believe in any deity. I just resent that people of faith have this thing they can believe takes care of them and guides them.


Personally I'd rather believe in the kindness of others and the power within myself. 

I guess wouldn't want any flying space daddy in a white dress leading me around. I'm always amazed when bad things happen, how resourceful and strong I can be. I'm also always amazed at how much some of my friends and family love me and are willing to help me.

If you're having trouble...if I could make one suggestion, don't be afraid to ask the people that love you for help. Reach out and you'll be surprised how many people that you can lean on. Its hard to do to ask sometimes but a lot of people really appreciate it when you do.

Best wishes...I hope you get through your struggles.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Karma is about balancing energy from a past life and this life. (way more intricate than that!)..good and bad karma can help us grow.

I do believe in reincarnation because energy cannot be created or destroyed. That being said I look at every encounter with people (good or bad) as a karmic debt from a previous life.

All things that help us grow in the "now".


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Nikita2270 said:


> I guess wouldn't want any flying space daddy in a white dress .


Ok that did it. Good thing I was not drinking when I read that.

:rofl:


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

My ten year old told her teacher Happy Zombie Jesus Day at Easter and got suspended.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> Those are actually nice thoughts. I actually made a list of times I was less than kind in the past years and wondered if it was karma


Interestingly enough....I've found that helping others during trying times in my life has made me to make me feel more whole.

Sometimes when you're going through something rough, stepping outside of your own circumstances to help others give your life more purpose and make you realize how much impact you can have to others. It just makes you feel good about life and makes others feel good about life.

Maybe doing some charity work or getting involved in a mentoring program would help get your mind off of all the tough things you're going through?


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## m0nk (Mar 14, 2014)

Pamvhv said:


> It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.


I trust in what I can see, and try my best to be logical. Make the most of the time you have, move on, learn, and grow from the experience. Some days the only thing that kept me going when I "felt" alone is the fact that the next day will happen weather I'm ready for it or not. Having children depending on you as well, or people at your job, etc. is enough faith for me. I wish there was a God. I wish that life was fair, and justice existed. I have to do my best and HOPE others will do the same to progress themselves and thus our species. That's my "faith."


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

Nikita2270 said:


> Interestingly enough....I've found that helping others during trying times in my life has made me to make me feel more whole.
> 
> Sometimes when you're going through something rough, stepping outside of your own circumstances to help others give your life more purpose and make you realize how much impact you can have to others. It just makes you feel good about life and makes others feel good about life.
> 
> Maybe doing some charity work or getting involved in a mentoring program would help get your mind off of all the tough things you're going through?


I give so much of my time already to a feral cat farm and a homeless shelter each week. I've always gave time and money when I have it.


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## Thinkitthrough (Sep 5, 2012)

Pamvhv: You can a tell Dutchman, but you can't tell him much. My wife says avoid the salt licorice (soute drop sorry, have used Dutch in years). I suspect you are right though, there are two kinds of Dutch people, those who are religious, and those who are not. No matter which side you pick they both think they are right.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> I wish there was a God. I wish that life was fair, and justice existed. I have to do my best and HOPE others will do the same to progress themselves and thus our species. That's my "faith."


I'm agnostic which for me is code for "I'm holding out my belief-cherry for a god that's not a sexist or murderous, bigoted jagoff and who digs some good jazz." 

The truth is that it really doesn't matter whether a god or gods exist or not. They clearly aren't interested in helping with the human condition so we have to help each other. I don't need a religion to know that the meaning of life is to always try to be a better person and to help others so that they're in a position to do the same for the next person.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

Thinkitthrough said:


> Pamvhv: You can a tell Dutchman, but you can't tell him much. My wife says avoid the salt licorice (soute drop sorry, have used Dutch in years). I suspect you are right though, there are two kinds of Dutch people, those who are religious, and those who are not. No matter which side you pick they both think they are right.


Please! I love eating drop. I make boeterkoeke at home! I feel more Dutch than my husband.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

From what I've seen on Facebook, most atheists seem to pray to Bill Nye, Carl Sagan, Neil deGrasse Tyson, or some combination thereof.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> From what I've seen on Facebook, most atheists seem to pray to Bill Nye, Carl Sagan, Neil deGrasse Tyson, or some combination thereof.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> From what I've seen on Facebook, most atheists seem to pray to Bill Nye, Carl Sagan, Neil deGrasse Tyson, or some combination thereof.


And our prophets are Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins....


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

I'm the only atheist that hates Tyson. I swear.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

Yeah, can't say I'm much of a Tyson fan either.

My real issue though, is with Sagan. If you're an atheist, you gotta reason it's a Darwinian universe. His _belief_ that it's benevolent, let alone his inluence in affixing a big "Hi! We're over here!" sign onto Voyager (now in interstellar space) was both naive and dangerous,

Really, I'm not paranoid...


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

lostmyreligion said:


> Yeah, can't say I'm much of a Tyson fan either.
> 
> My real issue though, is with Sagan. If you're an atheist, you gotta reason it's a Darwinian universe. His _belief_ that it's benevolent, let alone his inluence in affixing a big "Hi! We're over here!" sign onto Voyager (now in interstellar space) was both naive and dangerous,
> 
> Really, I'm not paranoid...


Well he did later say that was a mistake and aliens freak him the hell out, right?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Pamvhv said:


> It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.


I'm with EI on this response: I'm not sure if I'm exactly "qualified" since I was disloyal and since I consider myself a Christian, and I do have faith. 

From what I can understand, you like the idea of something to lean on in the hard times, but resent the idea of a god--that is to say not just "christian" but any deity. So you're not asking for how you could find out more about Krishna (for example LOL), but rather "Is there some equivalent comforting thing in the universe for atheists?" Is that sort of close to right? 

I'm going to skip new age stuff, balancing energy, "the Universe" and that kind of thing. I don't think that's what you're looking for. I do have faith, and I got my faith by studying and getting to a point that my head believes it's true even sometimes when my heart doesn't feel so secure. So maybe that's what you're looking for and something you "could do"--study until you find something you can believe is true even when your feelings are on the rollercoaster. 

For example, to be honest, I think I've read every book every published about affairs. I studied them. I studied what counselors say; I studied psychology books; I studied marriage coaches; I did workbooks and worksheets; I went to support groups; I studied about relationships; I studied about divorce--I mean it! I studied! I wanted to learn what happened, and how I could see it again, and where I went wrong, and try to just learn everything I possibly could about the topic. Now, that may be kinda much for you, but maybe if you learned about the thing that's causing the pain...it would help some. 

In the end, I will say this. I think it comes down to love. I mean that us humans need to learn how to demonstrate love to each other, and that means I'm not thinking of me...I'm thinking of you. And I need to study you to find out what means love to you. And then I need to figure out how to DO that and BE a person who shines out love. This is relevant because I think part of faith is figuring out how to love and who to love. My answer is that I love God and your answer is different, and that's yours to make! But maybe your answer is love yourself and be kind and gentle to yourself and forgive yourself. Maybe your answer is to love someone less fortunate and get the focus off yourself for a while. Maybe your answer is to love animals or natural things. All I'm saying is I think that somehow, love figures into this.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I dont know what I am anymore. All I know is that if there is a god, he gave up on me long before I gave up on him.

I have a cousin on facebook with a beautiful and loving wife, a beautiful home, and a great life. He really does have an amazing life, its not just a facade. Hes always proclaiming how good god is. My response is "yeah i'd love god too if I were you".

As it is, I'm 7 months into R and I cant even be given the opportunity to handle that because my job of 12 years will be ending soon so all my focus is on that. In my time on earth, most of it has been spent battling depression alone. I thought I finally overcame it when I got married and I was being rewarded for paying those dues. Nope, God decided I hadnt been through enough. They say God will never give you more than you can handle in a day. Well, hes given me more than I care to handle for a lifetime.

I want to believe, I just cant any longer.


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## Growapair (Sep 19, 2013)

I knew I was an atheist at the age of 8, before I knew what Atheism was. Once my very religious Muslim Grandfather told me Allah knew everything I was going to do in my life and who I was going to become, thousand years before I was even born, I had few good questions!

So wait, He creates people knowing ahead of time they're going to be Murderers, child molesters and rapists, but creates them anyway and lets them loose on this planet to, why? Confirm his hypothesis? The answer has always been “freewill”. I hate that world!

Fast forward 20 years: I started to travel to Africa and volunteer at several refugee camps, taught English at some schools, and helped doctors without borders at several hospitals. I met some amazing people. I have seen Christian children starve to death while praying to Jesus. I have seen Muslim children starve to death while praying to Allah. Neither Jesus nor Allah was interested in helping these innocent children.

Interestingly enough, These same gods were more than willing to help Bob in Mississippi put some fried chicken on the table. And Muhammad in Saudi Arabia put (Hummus?) on the table. Hmm, funny how that works!

Needless to say my experience while living amongst the poorest and the most religious in the world has further strengthened my conviction.

Prayers are useless. You can pray to Donald Trump and have the same rate of success.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

I miss the comfort religion gave me when I was young, and I also miss the comfort I felt when I believed my partner would never betray me. In the end, I lost both comforts and gained a harsher and (I'd like the think) more realistic world view. Being on the outside of religion, especially in the Bible Belt and/or when your whole family is religious, can be difficult. 

Despite being a loner, I think the sense of community and family that comes with being part of a good church can be a great thing to have in your life: You have friends, support, activities, and connections throughout your community through like-minded individuals at your gathering place. Atheist churches exist, but it's not the same experience without faith of some sort. When my sister was sick, when my brother died, when I was in an accident, when the love of my life cheated on me: Others prayed and I hoped for the best. The end result was the same... nothing changed unless acted upon by earthly forces... but I know there is healing power in coming together in such a way and having that sense of belief. That is real and that can be lost when you open your mind to outside ideas.

You seem to be searching for something that can not be given to you, at least without accepting that same kind "faith" that religions requires. To me, that's the opposite of what being atheist or agnostic is all about. I'm not even atheist because _I don't know_. We're all humans (even, especially, people like Mr. Dawkins, Hitchens, etc), so I've learned to question anyone who professes to know the truth. They only know their version of the truth, and in my experience, accepting another human's view usually gives rise to more questions than answers.

All I know is this: I haven't seen, read, or heard anything that explains explains the mysteries of the universe (including love), and I doubt I ever will.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Why the big LOL after Krishna?

I lived in a temple for a while. Beautiful religion and culture.

But it was there in the temple (after being raised evangelical Christian) that I am just not into any organized religion or god.

And "The Universe" is real. No quotes needed.

lmao.


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## WillinTampa (Jun 18, 2014)

The Atheists and Agnostics I know are very good people.

If you need the threat of a vengeful god hanging over you in order for you to do the right thing -- then you are not good and you are not moral.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Nikita2270 said:


> I guess wouldn't want any flying space daddy in a white dress leading me around.


This statement is actually pretty offensive to me as a Christian. I would not insult an "imaginary figure" (as I'm sure you figure my God is) that you worshiped and who was your whole life. I mean, really? Why do you have to say it like that? Why can't you just say "I prefer not to believe in God"?


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Q tip said:


> A slightly differ view...
> 
> I do appreciate atheists. They provide daily proof of God. They require God to exist with which then to not believe. If God did not exist, there would be no atheists.
> 
> ...


I'm going to stick my neck out here pretty far. Our human core values seem to come from the fact that we are social animals. Our instinctive rules are those needed to keep society going. Other social animals have some similar rudimentary rules. For instance apes, dogs, and a number of other animals have been tested on fairness. And they seem to recognize unfairness and retaliate against the unfair one.

As for cheating, one of the major things we, religious or not, do in life is reproduce. It was made pleasurable to ensure that we would. So from a biological point of view it is all about seeing our genes propagate. So we pick partners we feel we can trust and feel real upset if we are proven wrong.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Pamvhv said:


> My ten year old told her teacher Happy Zombie Jesus Day at Easter and got suspended.


I think suspension was a bit much, but forgive me for noting that making fun of others beliefs is at best impolite.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

I'm a Christian and feel the need to defend my faith since others feel the need to attack God. I was going to respond to others individually based on what they said, but I'll try to fit it in to one response.

Know why people are evil? Every bad thing that happens is because of free will, and because we would not know good if there were no bad. We wouldn't know God's compassion if we didn't have suffering. We wouldn't know His amazing forgiveness so that we can witness His spectacular love if we didn't have the chance to screw up, big time, over and over.

One of you said that you hate the word "freewill". Well, if it weren't for freewill of these evil people to do evil things, then you wouldn't have the freewill to reject a God that you don't believe in. Wouldn't that suck if you were forced to be a Christian and believe in God when you really don't want to? God has to give freewill, or else He's just a dictator who is controlling us. 

But he doesn't want to control us. He wants us to choose on our own. In fact, he WANTS us to flourish in life, hence the commands he gives. The commands are not to chain us in. They are to set us free. The things that he protects us from are things that would hurt us or others i.e. murder, stealing, lying, getting drunk, premarital sex, cussing, breaking the law. Homosexuality is one of them, and I'm not sure why yet, but I will have faith and find out one day.

Also, to respond to the person who says that God lets children starve and die, guess what? These children get to experience eternal glory before many of us do. They will never have to get their heart broken, experience divorce, being backstabbed by a friend sleeping with their lover or attempting, worry about bills, all the things that suck about the responsibility that comes with being an adult. They get to go straight to heaven as innocent children. They will never know evil.

To the OP, I am very sorry if I have offended you by using your post to make a case for God. To respond to your initial question, God gives me much comfort through my friends and family. Your friends and family LOVE you. They are there for you much more than you realize until you just tell them you need someone. Cry on their shoulder. Spend the night with a girlfriend eating chocolate and watching sappy movies and crying together. Buy a book that helps people get past an affair. Go out and do things. Meet people. Just go have fun. You have the freedom to choose again, to choose a spouse who will be so in love with you that they would never consider an affair. Just go be you. The best healer of all, however, is time. It really does work! You will get through this, and you will be okay!

You feel the desire for God's comfort because you were designed to receive it. You were not designed to go through things like this without his loving and comforting arms wrapping around you, protecting you from the pain. God literally protects me of the pain from things I did to screw up my own life. Of course he would comfort you in things like this. You seem like a very sweet, caring person and God would love to have you as part of his family and to live with Him forever in glory. You can take my words to heart or disregard them. The choice is yours. Either way, I am truly sorry about what happened to you and I know you will get through this.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Anyone a Pastafarian??


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vi_bride04 said:


> Anyone a Pastafarian??


LOL. All hail FSM!


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

ariel_angel77 said:


> I'm a Christian and feel the need to defend my faith since others feel the need to attack God. I was going to respond to others individually based on what they said, but I'll try to fit it in to one response.
> 
> Know why people are evil? Every bad thing that happens is because of free will, and because we would not know good if there were no bad. We wouldn't know God's compassion if we didn't have suffering. We wouldn't know His amazing forgiveness so that we can witness His spectacular love if we didn't have the chance to screw up, big time, over and over.
> 
> ...


Well I was going to stay out of this conversation, but....

IMO-To say that the christian religion is based on freewill is not accurate. Yes, you have the ability to make a "choice" but that choice comes with a price. If you chose not to believe in God, are you not then subjected to eternal damnation? That's not exactly freewill. It comes across as coercion. 

As for an atheistic BS, well. I, as a human being, took a vow as did my WS. We made the vows to each other, he chose to break them. Prayers to a deity will not lessen the pain of betrayal, nor make me stronger. I have those abilities within myself. 
I ask no one else to share my views, nor condemn others for their beliefs. If your belief system brings you happiness, wonderful! Religions don't seem to agree on that point either.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Pamvhv said:


> My ten year old told her teacher Happy Zombie Jesus Day at Easter and got suspended.


Hmm. Not quite sure how to respond to that. I'm w/ Sid, though... while grossly inappropriate, the suspension was probably a bit much.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Q tip said:


> I always wondered where atheists get their core values. What is the basis of their values. Don't kill, don't steal, don't covet the neighbors wife are all religious values. So, no worries if you're an atheist? Just wondering about the basis of core values assuming they are not religious. Assuming cheating violates religious beliefs, why would there be an issue with cheating..


Ugh… I don’t believe in a God any more than I do Dragons and Fairies. That doesn’t mean at all I reject the ideology of what religion strives for. Just pick up any book; Plenty of stories that evoke ideas of honor, courage, love, kindness, pity, etc. without hauling some deity into them controlling it all like some puppet master. And the church seems to be mixed on the message of ‘freewill’ and controlling your own destiny too. How you conduct yourself isn’t much different than me, nor are your core character beliefs… I actually believe in church and religion and what they stand for and the message; It’s that “all knowing being” God part I take issue with and blaming him for both good and bad stuff. 

Grieving can be different. You, as a true believer might take comfort in some idea that there is a ‘grand plan’ and God will watch out for you. You might have hope from that, thinking somewhere it down the line it will become clear and work out (which I find abstract since it doesn’t for a lot of biblical characters). You pray, and there’s comfort in that. Me; I sort of meditate, clear my head, and accept that I can’t control everything and bad things happen to nice people trying to do the right thing all the time. I don’t need to blameshift over onto a God. I accept that this is a dark time just like a religious person, but if I continue to breathe, take steps, and move forward, in time this will also pass and the probability of ‘good things’ happening down the line isn’t farfetched. I’m not a psychic, but they use that too…. I will meet a tall dark stranger somewhere in my future, I will find happiness, ….ooooh…. spooky…..


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

The problem with that, Angel, is that you and Christians like you, think that your religion is true and therefore blankets everyone because we haven't seen the light....even people who don't believe. We're just told "I'll pray for you". Please don't waste your time. If I don't believe in Hell or God, then it doesn't exist. You can't prove that it does, so there we go.

As far as justifying why children starve and die by saying they'll never know evil--- you have no idea what children go through and I'd say many of them have known evil and died a horrible death. Starving to death isn't a quick death...

People die because that's part of life. 

Pam, just focus within. You are stronger than you realize. Honestly, you are stronger than you ever imagined...which is why you're still here.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

ariel_angel77 said:


> This statement is actually pretty offensive to me as a Christian. I would not insult an "imaginary figure" (as I'm sure you figure my God is) that you worshiped and who was your whole life. I mean, really? Why do you have to say it like that? Why can't you just say "I prefer not to believe in God"?


Ariel... Respectfully, if that offended you, you should probably just stay off of the Internet. And stop watching TV. And stop reading any and all periodicals, talking to anyone outside of your church, etc.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I mean, in all reality, all gods are imaginary friends.

Doesn't matter how real it feels to a person, still no proof.

I can see how it is offensive...but I've been offended by Christians all my life and they didn't seem to care.

And I can't even really say, "I don't believe in God" because that gives a sense that a god exists.

There is no god in the sense of the Bible and other written books. Those were just created to control groups of people.

But I digress and am COMPLETELY off topic. lol. Sorry, Pam. I just....really have a problem with people feeling they need to defend their deity when the topic clearly stated agnostic/atheist.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Q tip said:


> I do appreciate atheists. They provide daily proof of God. They require God to exist with which then to not believe. If God did not exist, there would be no atheists.


Just to pick a nick.

Atheist exist because Theist exist, not a god.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

(the logic in that guy's post....wow. lol I can't even...)


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Ariel, I consider myself atheist (in reality non practicing catholic I guess). I don't begrudge anyone their faith, no matter what it is. One of my life long best friends is a deacon at his church. Goes to mass every day. I imagine many of the posters here respect different religious views as well, despite many of the tongue in cheek comments.

One of the first replies to this thread basically attacked atheists - wondering how such people could even have a moral compass. As if atheists, since they do not believe in a god and do not have his hand guiding us, are out in the streets raping and pillaging. So folks including me came out with their claws out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Which is funny because people are just people. I know plenty of Christians who cheated on spouses, lied about taxes, had sex before marriage, and screwed people over.

I mean, many religions have been busted for child molestation within the clergy.

But when the thread clearly says "Atheist/Agnostic" and the OP wants help in how to cope...it means she probably doesn't want God shoved down her throat. That first poster just posted to make sure everyone knew he was a Christian and that he was right and everyone else is wrong.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Pamvhv said:


> It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. *What can atheists and agnostics use? *You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.


Time. Time does heal, albeit slowly. But it does. It heals both physical and emotional pain. Remember that time you broke your arm or got smacked in the head by a baseball? Yeah, you do remember that you felt pain and it hurt immensely, but you don't actually _feel _the pain anymore. It's the same with emotional pain. In time, you can remember the pain, and maybe even get angry or upset about how it happened, but you don't actually _feel _it acutely like you might do now or when you trigger.

Yourself. Most of us have survived crappy things before, lots of crappy things happen to us over the course of a lifetime. But we all pick ourselves up (after a suitable amount of ice cream and sad movies and crying in a heap on the floor), and, day by day, we start to rebuild our lives. Each day, you notice something wonderful - a great meal, a good friend's kind hug, a beautiful sunset, a snuggly pet, a neighbor giving you fresh tomatoes from their garden...the little things add up and make you remember yourself and the joy you have in life. Again, it takes time, but you do regain peace eventually.

Family and friends. You know who they are, the ones who are hurting for you and rooting for you, and invite you over for dinner even though you're a miserable mess. Love and kindness heals, too.

Some can attribute that to a god of some sort I suppose, but in the end, it's all of the above that did it and it didn't come any faster or slower.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

that_girl said:


> The problem with that, Angel, is that you and Christians like you, think that your religion is true and therefore blankets everyone because we haven't seen the light....even people who don't believe. We're just told "I'll pray for you". Please don't waste your time. If I don't believe in Hell or God, then it doesn't exist. You can't prove that it does, so there we go.


When people say they'll pray for me, I mentally change that to, "I'm sending virtual hugs your way" or "I'm sending good vibes your way." It amounts to the same thing, as far as I'm concerned. Thank you for thinking of me! 



> Pam, just focus within. You are stronger than you realize. Honestly, you are stronger than you ever imagined...which is why you're still here.


Yes, this.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I meant when they say "I'll pray for you" in terms of you finding their god, as if you're lost and they have the truth.

That's what I meant.

Some of my friends pray for me in times of trouble and I appreciate it.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

that_girl said:


> I meant when they say "I'll pray for you" in terms of you finding their god, as if you're lost and they have the truth.
> 
> That's what I meant.
> 
> Some of my friends pray for me in times of trouble and I appreciate it.


Aahh, yes. My SO's mother is religious and says this to him all the time. He has a magnetic FSM on his car, lol.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Ugh. My mother too. Drove me crazy. My beliefs were invalid because SHE had the truth. lmao. Egocentric!

Pam, did you have coffee today? I find that good coffee can really start a day right.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Atheism is a term dreamed up by those that believe in God.

Those without a belief in God are just people not attached to a religious dogma.


Why do I split hairs on the label? Because a lot of people link a negative connotation to the label.

To not believe in a God does not mean a person is without ethics any more than professing a belief in a God proves a person has ethics.

I think, outside of sociopathic types, most people of all persuasion feel the pain of betrayal. It offends us all.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Q tip said:


> A slightly differ view...
> 
> I do appreciate atheists. They provide daily proof of God. They require God to exist with which then to not believe. If God did not exist, there would be no atheists.
> 
> ...


Religion has no monopoly on morals. History has proven that for thousands of years. The people that scare me the most are those with no inherent morals like yourself. I don't need to be controlled and guided by an ancient book that threatens me with eternal punishment. Even a Labrador Retriever knows it shouldn't hurt others, steal or betray its family. There are simply good and bad people with varying degrees of character and intelligence. I choose to associate with those that have inherently good character and higher intelligence regardless of their religion. Your fuzzy logic requires having faith that a god exists and we all know that faith is subjective. Your first paragraph was a back handed insult to atheists and not very loving coming from a real" Christian". Don't feel sorry for me. My loving legacy will live on in my atheist children.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Q tip said:


> The question was where is the source of the values, not if they have them. Religion does claim those listed above in a rather documented way. What is the basis then for these non-believers.
> 
> Anyway, I think we can all agree cheating is a human issue, some call it temptation, some call it whatever... Religion or any religious belief shows the frailty of the human heart and the greatness of the human heart. Everyone is given a free will.
> 
> ...


How is this in response to my post?

You lump people into believers and non-believers. I just see people.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

let me see if I can answer without being offensive to those who have faith as it is not my intention to do as such


but essentially, we atheists cope much in the same way as Christians, Jews and others who believe in God do. We lean on friends, family, and most importantly ourselves. When someone of faith tells me God helped them through a difficult time I think to myself that it wasn't an anthropomorphic supreme being that did it, it was the person themselves that did it. That strength had to come from somewhere and the belief itself of God or that God "has plan" or loves him/her isn't the direct source. It came from within, whether you choose to call that inner strength God or your own self worth or the belief that things do get better and good things do happen to people who work towards it. 

You have the strength Pam, I know that your current state of despair and depression makes it difficult to see that, but I can assure you that you do. You have the power to make your life better and despite the unforeseeable obstacles that were thrown in your way, it will get better. The alternative is to wallow in your own pity and desperately cling to the notion that you are a victim the rest of your days but from what I've read in your threads you are far too strong to do that.

Hold on and keep moving, you will find happiness again


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I just think it's to be expected that religious people (usually Christian, but not always) can't let someone have an atheist/agnostic question or thread without stating that they feel offended or trying to defend their deity.

Let people live.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Q tip said:


> Well, true. Atheism is a religious belief.


It's a belief. Religion hauls a God or deity into it. We don't 'worship', build churches, altars, or have 'the good book' writing out the philosophy. We simply believe this or that without taking some special time to sit around while some leader figure tells us what we should believe and embrace. That's why it isn't a religion and why yours is.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

If you believe that it's okay for children to die because they'll respawn in heaven, then dying a slow death of starvation becomes a pit stop on the road to heaven. This is similar to the reason I think it's a bad idea for doomsday believers to have their fingers on the doomsday button. Faith can create outcomes, good and bad. Whatever we are, we work best when we work together and when we focus on real things we can do together to create positive outcomes. This is great since we have so much in common, but people tend to focus on differences, impose their world view on others, etc. It's so much wasted effort. 

Religion could feed, clothe and house every child on Earth. Instead, most Christians are content to live overly-comfortable lives, ignore or dismiss the suffering of others, build opulent churches that are used for a few hours a few times a week, and throw away money into the political system to control social issues (and not the issues focused on universal good like poverty/health - but the issues which impose their view of morality such as reproductive issues).

I actually do appreciate prayers, just as I appreciate good thoughts and feelings sent my way, but I do not appreciate a smug sense of omniscience informed by a book that was written, compiled, and edited thousands of years ago. I'm sure even the oldest religions had their doubters, e.g. when a loved one died or food fell short, long before "God" showed himself to his first followers.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

And this is ALL OFF TOPIC!

Who cares what atheists are or aren't. We know what and who we are. Just leave it to religious people to come in and make it a debate about their god being real and they're offended and we're just floundering for the Light.

Please.

Pam asked how to cope as an atheist/agnostic. That she was jealous of her religious friends because they seemed to have something to lean on. 

You're right, Pam...they do. They say it's god, but it's really just themselves...strong and vibrant as ever.

You have your SELF to lean on. Honestly, it's wicked strong. Full of hope and sustainability. It just has to get out of the fog. 

When bad things happen to me, my question is always, "What am I to learn from this? What is the message here for me to learn?" well, I think that with good things too...but it especially helps in hard times because it gives the hard times a PURPOSE. Lessons are so good in life...they keep you from making the same mistake again, if you truly reflect on it.

That's my mission right now....figuring out what I'm supposed to have learned from this marriage, but in all honesty, it's been 4 years of crazy in a 7 year stint.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Racer said:


> It's a belief. Religion hauls a God or deity into it. We don't 'worship', build churches, altars, or have 'the good book' writing out the philosophy. We simply believe this or that without taking some special time to sit around while some leader figure tells us what we should believe and embrace. That's why it isn't a religion and why yours is.


"Evangelical" atheism is one of the most fervently rabid movements that I've ever witnessed, and I have no doubt that, if it were at all acceptable to do so, there would be Saganites, Tysonists, and Nyeians aplenty cutting huge, bloody swaths across the southeastern U.S.

Religion is, by it's very definition, a human construct, and no one ever truly needed a deity of any flavor to visit intolerance, subjugation, and suffering upon our fellow man. Well... unless, of course, you're looking to rope in a bunch of willing participants -- it can be really handy then.

Education is what frees all of us from this tortuous cycle.


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

I love this thread.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

hawx20 said:


> I dont know what I am anymore. All I know is that if there is a god, he gave up on me long before I gave up on him.
> 
> I have a cousin on facebook with a beautiful and loving wife, a beautiful home, and a great life. He really does have an amazing life, its not just a facade. Hes always proclaiming how good god is. My response is "yeah i'd love god too if I were you".
> 
> ...


While I appreciate and empathize with your pain, I would like you to see equally that, even if you had your brothers life, the very fact and character of human suffering says a great deal about any power that there is out there. It seems to me that it is the pinnacle of narcissism that your brother attributes his good fortune to good whilst there is so much suffering of innocents in the world at the hands of nature. 

On the other hand, the people that invest the most energy into declaring how happy they are, are often most of all trying to convince themselves so it might not be exactly what it seems.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Growapair said:


> Prayers are useless. You can pray to Donald Trump and have the same rate of success.


I don't know. The Donald might actually send them some cash.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

ScrambledEggs said:


> I don't know. The Donald might actually send them some cash.


Or fire you if he thinks your prayers are stupid.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Cabsy said:


> We're all humans (even, especially, people like Mr. Dawkins, Hitchens, etc), so I've learned to question anyone who professes to know the truth. They only know their version of the truth, and in my experience, accepting another human's view usually gives rise to more questions than answers.
> 
> All I know is this: I haven't seen, read, or heard anything that explains explains the mysteries of the universe (including love), and I doubt I ever will.


The issue that Dawkins, Hitch, and others will have with this is not putting their opinions ahead of others, but putting faith and unfounded belief on the same footing and esteem as established facts and applied reason. Any belief ought to be supported by facts.

There are things we know we know. There are things we think we know. And there are things we know we don't know. They are not the same things and should not carry the same weight when choosing the course of your life and particularly in influencing public policy.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

ariel_angel77 said:


> This statement is actually pretty offensive to me as a Christian. I would not insult an "imaginary figure" (as I'm sure you figure my God is) that you worshiped and who was your whole life. I mean, really? Why do you have to say it like that? Why can't you just say "I prefer not to believe in God"?


Because the belief in imaginary beings is not only worthy of ridicule, but necessary to break the culture fueled illusion that its OK to believe in something that has no facts to support and in fact is shown to be false in many many ways. 

I mean no insult to you personally, but I realize it will be impossible for you to not internalize this as such. it is equally offensive to me that groundless belief influences our culture and is consulted in our law making because it just so culturally "normal" to believe in an imaginary man in the sky that loves you. That idea needs to not be 'normal' unless it can be shown to be true with facts, and reason.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

ariel_angel77 said:


> Also, to respond to the person who says that God lets children starve and die, guess what? These children get to experience eternal glory before many of us do. They will never have to get their heart broken, experience divorce, being backstabbed by a friend sleeping with their lover or attempting, worry about bills, all the things that suck about the responsibility that comes with being an adult. They get to go straight to heaven as innocent children. They will never know evil.


You just gave David Koresh's and Jim Jones' excuse for murdering children. Reading this sends shivers up my spine with moral implications of what was written here. Nothing written here could illustrate better that evil twisting upon reality that religion offers us.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

That was very well said, Eggs.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Q tip said:


> Well, true. Atheism is a religious belief.


No it is not. You are willfully misunderstanding I think. 

We do not need a special word for people who do not believe in astrology which shows how misunderstood the word "atheist" is. It is simply a lack of belief in things there are no evidence for. 

The default position in logic is that something must be proven before it is considered true. Atheist cannot, in the absolute sense, conclude there is no god but that likelihood is inferred by the data we do have.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I really do hate labels too. If someone decides they don't believe in anything, other people shouldn't be so quick to label them.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

that_girl said:


> You have your SELF to lean on. Honestly, it's wicked strong. Full of hope and sustainability. It just has to get out of the fog. .


:iagree:

This Pam. 

And if the fog gets too thick sometimes, there's always someone here to shore you up and help you find your way.

Bohr's quote in my signature pretty much sums up my approach to adversity. Because I don't believe in an afterlife I do my best to live in and enjoy the now and you never know what the next day is gonna serve up to you (good or bad). Either way, I'm always hungry, endlessly curious and secure in the knowledge that if it happened to me, it happened to someone else. If they managed to push through it and thrive, then so can I. Especially if they're giving me sound 'how-to' advice


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Another thing that's helped me is understanding that we only have the RIGHT NOW.

There is no tomorrow. The past happened. It's done. I don't live in the future or the past. I try to live in the NOW. The future doesn't exist and yet we WORRY SO DAMN MUCH about it...we forget to do our work in the NOW.

It's always the "now". If you choose to be positive and work on yourself and being the best YOU, then the now is beneficial. 

But try not to get caught up in the what ifs, the what thens, the what will happen whens...because they don't exist. Focus on the now and if in your 'now', something big and horrible happens, then you deal with it in the NOW and move through.

I dunno. It's helped me a ton to focus on the now and not spin out of control worrying about the future...a future I don't even know is coming or not.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

I was raised Catholic, and thought that was "why you were good." I am also a WS (yay for handy acronym labels). I have been accused, on here, of becoming an atheist to make my affair "ok." I didn't, but you know what? It is ok. It is not immoral to be attracted to another person, and a broken promise is just that: it's not a murder, it's not assault, it's not theft. Is it a mistake? Absolutely, but lots of mistakes happen, on all levels. I have the LARGE majority of my life I am extremely proud of, and despite what the Catholics say about 'absolution,' while their concept of God may very well adhere to it, they do not. There is nothing a Catholic loves more, than feeling superior to another human being. Don't tell me I'm wrong, I've known FAR too many to be convinced otherwise.

Neither karma nor God is out to get you, nor is either 'on your side.' You want to know how to get over being a WS? Realize, it's really not that big a deal; if it were such an egregious thing, why do millions of marriages deal with it? Because long-term committment is difficult, REALLY difficult, and IMO, an unreasonable request of most of us. The people who say it's no big deal, they've never strayed in 50 years of marriage? Frankly, I think they're co-dependent, in the clinical sense. Having an affair doesn't mean you're a lousy person, it doesn't mean your BS is some martyr, wounded for life....they need to get over it, too. It's like revoking the license of someone who gets in a fender-bender, claiming they're a reckless, horrible driver. Yes, that's extreme, but the other side of this coin needs to be discussed. The BS's on here talk as if there is nothing in the world so personally damaging as an affair. I think if you go beyond a certain point, still bitter and wounded over it.....then maybe your personal issues are a little more responsible at that point. Which, not coincidentally, just MAYBE were rearing their head and were a contributing factor to the affair. I know, I know.....NOTHING is responsible for making someone cheat, right? - bulls**t. One person taking the leap to an affair is certainly responsible for that unique mistake, but it does not automatically trump absolutely anything else that happened.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

WOW! Cheating on your spouse is no big deal because bigger things can and have happened?

You really do justify yourself.

Just like a bully to tell someone to "get over it".

The nerve you have, really. Now I know why you cheated. You really don't see any side except yours and you've realllllly justified it as no big deal.

Maybe you should have put that in the vows YOU TOOK. Hard or not, you took vows. "Broken promise" or not, it is a big deal....


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

As a Christian I pray on a daily basis. I do not however ask God to put my hurt and pain over anyone elses. I may pray that He alleviate hurt I am feeling, but I don't see Him as a be all end all to my daily struggles.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Q tip said:


> Well, true. Atheism is a religious belief.


Atheism is a religion just like being bald is a hair colour and not collecting stamps is a hobby.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

I honestly think my non-god beliefs helped me through my hardships more than having faith ever would.

I looked for strength within myself instead of praying and hoping for someone to "rescue" me. 

I never understood organized religion. Put all your faith in something that may or may not exist instead of yourself. Just "believe" and you will be taken care of. 

Believe in yourself and the same thing will happen.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

WyshIknew said:


> Atheism is a religion just like being bald is a hair colour and not collecting stamps is a hobby.


Not scrapbooking is my hobby. I'm really good at it too.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Not scrapbooking is my hobby. I'm really good at it too.


My new hobby is not being a multi millionaire.

I am excellent at it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Oh hey! I could do that too!

Also, not being a nice girl. lmao. I'm great at that 

Wow, Wysh! We have so many hobbies we never knew we had!

But back to that guy's post up there (still saying WOW ) ...being raised Catholic doesn't make a person Catholic. It's not a race.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

WyshIknew said:


> Atheism is a religion just like being bald is a hair colour and not collecting stamps is a hobby.


Hmm. This sure would seem to paint _some atheists_ in a rather "religious" light...

Atheist Church

And by the way, "bald" would seem to be an accurate enough description of a person's hair color, at least for the purposes of identification or recognition.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't even label myself. Nothing really fits.

I just know what I'm not


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

"Oh the Places You'll Go" by Dr. Seuss is pretty lovely for finding your path


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Q tip said:


> There is one book that if read seriously, has many if not all the answers. No other like it.


Indeed, and that would be "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins!


----------



## Growapair (Sep 19, 2013)

ariel_angel77 said:


> I'm a Christian and feel the need to defend my faith since others feel the need to attack God. I was going to respond to others individually based on what they said, but I'll try to fit it in to one response.
> 
> Know why people are evil? *Every bad thing that happens is because of free will, and because we would not know good if there were no bad. We wouldn't know God's compassion if we didn't have suffering.* We wouldn't know His amazing forgiveness so that we can witness His spectacular love if we didn't have the chance to screw up, big time, over and over.
> 
> ...


Please stop! you're making it worse. So in your mind, Its actually a good thing these innocent children die a prolonged, painful death of starvation? Because they get to go to "heaven" quicker? You sound like the Taliban as they convince young men to strap bombs to their chests. 

Your other point is just as ridiculous. So god wipes us out with flood and earthquakes so that he can later show us how great he is, because if he didn't show us how cruel he can be, we wouldn't have known how compassionate he is? Would you beat the heck out of your little daughter for the purpose of buying her an ice cream later to show her how kind you are?

I have seen those children suffer and die a horrible death as they held on to a bible or a Quran. 

Let me tell you, there is absolutely nothing compassionate or kind about your god!


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Q tip said:


> There is one book that if read seriously, has many if not all the answers. No other like it.


You mean The Silmarillion of course? The notion that god created the world with music is so poetic, it must be true.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

ScrambledEggs said:


> You mean The Silmarillion of course? The notion that god created the world with music is so poetic, it must be true.


Holy F*ck. No, just no. Seriously, we might as well all read Chaucer. Ugh.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

:rofl:


----------



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Holy F*ck. No, just no. Seriously, we might as well all read Chaucer. Ugh.


Clearly Melkor has clouded your heart. I pity you.


----------



## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Again, SO off topic.

I don't know why Christians think that their beliefs are weakened when other people don't believe in their fairy tales.

There is no proof of god no more than there is proof of unicorns or trolls.

Greek mythology is also true then...if one god can be true then ALL gods can be true.

But no. Christians think they hold the key because their book tells them so. 

Delusional. Sorry but it's delusional.

I always wonder about their faith too. If a homeless man started spouting off about being God and having a new book, he'd probably be dismissed by the same people who say they have faith.

And your opinions mean nothing. You have no facts, data or proof that god exists. The bible is not proof. Good things happening is not proof.


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## Growapair (Sep 19, 2013)

You know your god is man-made when he hates all the people you hate!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I have looked. Proof is not there.

I don't care what you believe in, just stop trying to shove it down people's throats. Your first post in here was typical of a Christian...which isn't very Christ like.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

that_girl said:


> And your opinions mean nothing. You have no facts, data or proof that god exists. The bible is not proof. Good things happening is not proof.


I want proof that the christian god is real and all others are wrong. 

I HATE the fact that if you aren't christian you are going to hell. Even if you believe in another diety. What makes them the "right" ones?? If anything, Jewish people are right since JC was Jewish! lol

It doesn't matter what one calls "god" it is all the same, IMO. 

The universe, Buddha, Jehovah, Muhammad, Thor, Zeus ........really who cares.

The thing that matters is the human experience. Organized religion just seems to bring hate and death.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Pam didn't ask what YOU thought of atheism and yet there you were, saying how atheists just prove there's a god.

The eff. Get outta here.

ETA: Nope. No desire to read that book. And you can keep up with your delusions. It's ok with me too.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

ScrambledEggs said:


> GusPolinski said:
> 
> 
> > Holy F*ck. No, just no. Seriously, we might as well all read Chaucer. Ugh.
> ...


Damn. Burned.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Q tip said:


> Not sure who wrote up those rules. Do you?


Why are you trying to shove christianity down our throats? You seem to be getting offended that we are "non believers"

And I don't understand your question? I stated my opinion, not hard fast "rules".


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It's impossible for people to have a "insert whatever belief here" without a Christian being offended and trying to say we're wrong and we should look into things to find the truth.

I am happy in my life. I know what I know. I don't try to shove my beliefs down someone's throat but will share if asked. 

Your condescending tone is soooo typical of every Christian I've ever known in my life. I don't need your approval to live my life without your god.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

For those who believe... With respect to this thread, it's probably just about time to "shake loose the dust from your feet"...

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Your condescending tone is soooo typical of every Christian I've ever known in my life. I don't need your approval to live my life without your god.


:iagree:

christianity has showed me how I DO NOT want to act towards my fellow man.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> This statement is actually pretty offensive to me as a Christian. I would not insult an "imaginary figure" (as I'm sure you figure my God is) that you worshiped and who was your whole life. I mean, really? Why do you have to say it like that? Why can't you just say "I prefer not to believe in God"?


I don't bash people for believing in christianity. People have the right to believe whatever they choose to find their own path.

But I take plenty of liberty to rip apart the actual content of the religion itself. I don't care if you're offended by that. I'm offended by the whole notion of christianity and its tenants. I find it horrific but I don't expect that to be of interest to you.

I'm offended by any religion that personifies the creator with a male gender. I'm offended by a religion that specifies the creator to be a white guy. I'm offended by a religion that suggests its ok to subjugate women...that has no women prophets. I'm offended by a religion that has no respect for other belief systems. I'm offended by a religion that's been used to justify some of the most vile things that one human being can do to another...rape, incest, burnings, cruxifications, murders, slavery, war, etc.

So I'm not interested in propping up the christian religion. If you choose to believe, however, I wouldn't say you are wrong. I have no idea what inspires you or what you need to find enlightenment.

Other than that...i'll say about christianity whatever the H-E- double hockey sticks I feel like saying.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Q-tip, you came into this thread without even mentioning the OP's original topic. 

You had to make your stance known about what you feel about atheists.

Which is typical.

Good day.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Pamvhv said:


> It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.


CBT therapy and NLP could help, I think.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Q tip said:


> Not sure who wrote up those rules. Do you?


Men.


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Q tip said:


> No evidence or just willfully ignoring truth....? Willful ignorance is warned about in the bible BTW.
> 
> Ok, I will provide you one small humble piece of information which you need to investigate.
> 
> ...


Well of course he was never a true atheist.

Oh boy, I finally get to use the No True Scotsman fallacy against a Christian.

And if an atheist turned Christian is proof surely the same could be said for a Christian turned atheist?

Amongst others look at Normal Bob Smith an ex evangelical Christian who is now atheist.

Look, these arguments are worthless.

The atheists who care will never understand why Christians worship their "stone age god and his zombie son"

The Christians who care will never understand why atheists "turn from god and throw away a chance for eternal life with a being that loves them."

For me, so long as we all follow the Golden Rule then it's all good.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> I HATE the fact that if you aren't christian you are going to hell. Even if you believe in another diety. What makes them the "right" ones?? If anything, Jewish people are right since JC was Jewish! lol


This is the main issue with the christian marketing campaign. It only works on people who are intrinsically afraid. It doesn't work as well on people who are curious about the world.

They use subtle threats to scare you into their belief system. You're going to hell...hurry and repent so your sins are forgiven...you'll be alone....etc, etc, etc.

In reality, when I look at christianity, the only thing that really scares me is a) their version of god and b) the idea of hanging out with eternity with most of the fervently religious people I've met.

If I compare burning in hell...compared with hanging out for the rest of eternity with the nutbags I've seen in tent revivals... I'm choosing the fire. At least my eardrums will be charred and I won't have to listen to any vomit-inducing bible music.

In all seriousness, I cannot take any religion seriously who's marketing campaign is "worship our horror of a made-up god or burn in hell." There's nothing enlightening, or humanistic, or loving, or good, or kind about that. I'm not afraid of anything but the idea that that's all that the next life has to offer. And if that's all the nightmare that awaits us all. I'll choose hell over hanging out with anyone that supports that type of god.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Nikita2270 said:


> This is the main issue with the christian marketing campaign. It only works on people who are intrinsically afraid. It doesn't work as well on people who are curious about the world.
> 
> They use subtle threats to scare you into their belief system. You're going to hell...hurry and repent so your sins are forgiven...you'll be alone....etc, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


If I was a Christian I could never ever enjoy my eternal life in heaven knowing that some people are burning in hell for ever.

I would imagine barbecues are not a popular family choice in heaven.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

:rofl:

Amg.


----------



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Q tip said:


> No evidence or just willfully ignoring truth....? Willful ignorance is warned about in the bible BTW.
> 
> Ok, I will provide you one small humble piece of information which you need to investigate.
> 
> ...


There is a pretty good thermonuclear take down of Strobel's book here.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> If I was a Christian I could never ever enjoy my eternal life in heaven knowing that some people are burning in hell for ever.


I think many people who have worshipped such belief systems throughout the ages stay attached to the immoral and horror of tenants of the religions because of a sense of misguided superiority.

ie. I am chosen...we're in a club...not everyone gets in...worship or die...I'm superior to those who aren't in the gang...etc.

Its typical group-think mentality that leads to some many of the horrors of the human condition. We unfortunately often seek to separate ourselves and revel in the few things that make us different...rather than to celebrate our common humanity and all the far greater things that make us the same.

Just another reason why the christian belief system is something I could never de-evolve myself into practicing. The truth is that I hope for far more for humanity than something so horrific after we move from this existence and into the next.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Pam, know what I think you need? Some sushi with a kick a$s friend-- or whatever you like, I love sushi-- and a new hair style.

I swear. Those two things will do wonders. If you aren't looking at the same old Pam in the mirror, then you are not the same old Pam.

I got a new color during my troubles right now. Bright red. Yup. Rawr.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

I have to laugh whenever some fervently christian person brings up the concept of "willful ignorance."

I would describe most agnostics or atheists I know as willfully curious...which is a good thing to be. We have a very developed brain and the natural need to use it...seems unnatural not to.

And speaking of "willful ignorance". What do you call a group of people that WILLFULLY IGNORE data...like the fossil record (evolution), or the human genome (gay people are born that way), or even the temp on a thermometer (yea, global warming is real).

What they're ticked about is that you have the nerve to actually form an opinion based on data and humanistic values.

How dare you, you terrible agnostics and atheists...how dare you use data. Bad, bad, naughty people!


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Pamvhv said:


> It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.


IMO Christians have a long tradition of prayers, teachings and scriptures that address the issue of pain that extends to the Jewish traditions recorded in the Torah.

On the other hand pain and evil are hard questions to answer from whatever perspective you hold. 

I was an atheist. I read quite a bit from various perspectives on pain and evil, theologians, philosophers, etc. But my conclusion is there is no real answer. I do believe that Christianity has a good answer to this but it certainly does not answer the question completely.

There are mysteries that we have not answered and perhaps will never be able to answer.

As far as faith I believe everyone oozes with faith. We all walk and live by faith. When a person gets out of bed in the morning, do they check to see if someone has cut a hole in the floor? Do you hold your breath and test the air to make sure it is not poisened? We breath by faith, we get out of bed by faith. For me it is not an issue of faith but rather the object of our faith that is important, but that is really not the question of this thread.

I have found in my previous years of ministry in dealing with folks from various religious and non-religious backgrounds that folks who have religious views tend to cope better then those who don't.

My view does not dismiss some of the valid criticisms about Christianity that have been brought up in this thread.

But the OP does reflect what research has shown, that religion can bring comfort, and those folks tend to cope better in times of distress.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> IMO Christians have a long tradition of prayers, teachings and scriptures that address the issue of pain that extends to the Jewish traditions recorded in the Torah.
> 
> On the other hand pain and evil are hard questions to answer from whatever perspective you hold.
> 
> ...


Damnit Thorburn, there's no place for a reasonable Christian voice on this thread!D)


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Nikita2270 said:


> I have to laugh whenever some fervently christian person brings up the concept of "willful ignorance."
> 
> I would describe most agnostics or atheists I know as willfully curious...which is a good thing to be. We have a very developed brain and the natural need to use it...seems unnatural not to.
> 
> ...


If one was to look at the years from 1900 till about the year 2000, one would find that roughly 94 million people died under an ideology that dismissed the concept of God. An additional 28 million died under fascism.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> If one was to look at the years from 1900 till about the year 2000, one would find that roughly 94 million people died under an ideology that dismissed the concept of God. An additional 28 million died under fascism.


We've had all these arguments before and it is honestly pointless.

Bad people kill other people. It's got sod all to do with whether they are religious or not.

As with infidelity people will use any possible reason to justify their actions.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

*Re: Re: Atheist / Agnostic Betrayed Spouses*



WyshIknew said:


> As with infidelity people will use any possible reason to justify their actions.


AMEN to that!


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

And please Thorburn, tell me you aren't about to break Godwins Law?


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Being I don't believe that any "God" is responsible for the good or bad in my life why would I need to pray to one to get comfort and relief.
The bad that has happened in my life I can directly connect to either A. the cruelty and selfishness of people or B. My own dumb actions

The good that has happened is A. the kindness of others(some may say God put those people in a position to help me sorry that's bunk) or B. My hard work

I have said it here before if you find religion helps you, makes you a better person than I am happy for you anywhere you find comfort and solace in this world is a good thing just not something I need.


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

i rather like that, being a person that doesn't believe in a higher power, i rely only on myself and those closest to me when times get tough. 
all i need, i have within me.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

*Re: Re: Atheist / Agnostic Betrayed Spouses*



cool12 said:


> i rather like that, being a person that doesn't believe in a higher power, i rely only on myself and those closest to me when times get tough.
> all i need, i have within me.


I have felt this same way even when I was a young child. I remember watching relatives in times of stress ask for help in prayer. And I didn't understand why they didn't just take action themselves.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

I determined I was an atheist at a particularly vulnerable time in my life - the same time that I discovered porn. I was 13 years old and was....er... 'reading' my way through my brother's vintage playboy collection when I came across an interview with Ayn Rand in the March 1964 issue. It peaked my interest enough that I actually did read the article. Didn't understand most of it but enough got through that I realized her philosophy might provide a rebuke for the extreme guilt I felt everytime I 'read' my brother's collection. 

A couple years years later I came across the following quote by Rand:

"(The Doctrine of Original Sin) declares that (man) ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge - he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil - he became a moral being/ He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor - he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire - he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which (the preachers) damn him are reason, morality, creativeness joy - all the cardinal values of his existence."

Once I understood this, my guilt over my unorthodox reading habits disappeared and I knew I was home.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

WyshIknew said:


> And please Thorburn, tell me you aren't about to break Godwins Law?


Not this time. I know Mike Godwin. Mike Godwin is a friend of mine.
Senator, you're no Mike Godwin.

There is also "Stead's Law", which states when two or more pagans have a discussion it will eventually come around to Christianity.


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> Not this time. I know Mike Godwin. Mike Godwin is a friend of mine.
> Senator, you're no Mike Godwin.
> 
> There is also "Stead's Law", which states when two or more pagans have a discussion it will eventually come around to Christianity.


Never heard of that one. Cool that you know Mike Godwin. Was that from when he was on Usenet?


----------



## Aspydad (Oct 17, 2013)

I am a Christian. So why can’t I give my opinion to the OP in my own way without being attacked by those who do not believe in God? OP just delete it if it offends you.

When I read this thread and see the way the Christians are attacked and hated, I am really thrown aback. Now I see firsthand how and why so many Christians were killed (and are still being killed) for their faith. Mention the name of Jesus Christ and look out - anger from the non-believers. 

OP or any other non-believer - just pray to God and call on the name of Jesus Christ. If you don't hear anything back - then what damage has been done?

Or OP, go to a Church that is built on the foundation of Jesus Christ - and then, do the same thing. If you don't hear anything, what damage has been done? Maybe you will find rest there - maybe you will find comfort there? For where when many gather in his name, He is there among them - You will feel his presence. It is like an invisible energy that is very difficult to describe – but, it feels so good.

Believe it or not, there are many that go to a Christian Church and do not believe - yet, they keep on coming for the fellowship with other people. Many are married to Christians and want to just go to Church with their significant other.

I tell you that it is a lie propagated by ignorance to believe that all Christians condemn non-Christians to Hell. How ridiculous is that? It is very clear within the Christian belief - that only Jesus Christ will judge in the end. For all I know, everyone here on earth will go to heaven. For me to make a judgment as to someone else’s destination after death is absolutely worthless. I actually desire all to go to heaven.

Just in case no one here knows who Jesus Christ is - he is the Son of the living God, he has been declared by God to be equal with God so he therefore is God, and he is Equal with and is the Holy Spirit. This was declared by God.

Jesus just also happens to be the most popular / greatest Man who ever lived on this earth - He is not a fairytale and was real as can be. Many have tried to disprove his existence but they could not. Also, its not like he lived a million years ago - it was just 2000 years ago (just 20 - 100 year life spans) What makes him so popular is that he is the one who was unjustly condemned to death on a cross, he was crucified, buried, and then most importantly - he rose from the dead just as predicted in the Old Testament – Death could not defeat him - and this is why he is regarded the greatest Man who ever lived. This fact is TRUE and no one here can deny that. So what does the year 2014 mean?? I bet everyone here knows!

I do promise, this will be my last post on this thread.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

lostmyreligion said:


> I determined I was an atheist at a particularly vulnerable time in my life - the same time that I discovered porn.


This may very well be the *funniest f*cking thing* that I've read so far this year.


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Anyone a Pastafarian??


Nah, last Thursdayist.


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Aspydad said:


> I am a Christian. So why can’t I give my opinion to the OP in my own way without being attacked by those who do not believe in God? OP just delete it if it offends you.
> 
> When I read this thread and see the way the Christians are attacked and hated, I am really thrown aback. Now I see firsthand how and why so many Christians were killed (and are still being killed) for their faith. Mention the name of Jesus Christ and look out - anger from the non-believers.
> 
> ...


Well to be fair Aspydad the thread was about Atheist/Agnostic betrayed spouses. Then some Christians came in and started wagging their fingers and complaining. Why didn't they just butt out?

If they hadn't poked their noses into other peoples business there would have been no issue.

And why are you posting your claptrap in an atheist agnostic thread?


----------



## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Pamvhv said:


> It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.


I use people and myself.

Since I don't expect God to deliver me from pain, I open myself up to people. Sometimes this means more pain but it's part of being human. At the same time, opening up to people means I am not alone, I'm not just me dealing with whatever I'm dealing with. These people may ore may not deliver me from pain but they remind me of my humanity, that I don't suffer alone.

Since I don't believe, my prayers manifest into me thinking how I can make situation better. It seems circular, but if I can verbalize what I want out loud (or sometimes in my head often enough), I often see the solution in front of me. This doesn't mean that I can use it right away---but it's there when I ultimately need it.

I felt the same sense of unfairness that people of faith have something to lean on and I don't--until I realized that I can do the exact same things they do without placing a supernatural element on it. I rely on my community to support me, I look for the best path to present itself and I will myself to take it.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> Not this time. I know Mike Godwin. Mike Godwin is a friend of mine.
> Senator, you're no Mike Godwin.





WyshIknew said:


> Never heard of that one.


It's a take on a famous retort in the 1988 VP debates in the US. Then Senator Dan Quayle claimed to be like President John F. Kennedy and his debate opponent's famous retort "Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy, I knew Jack Kennedy, Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy."

You want to watch from 0.28 on. 
Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine - YouTube


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

" It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself."

I'd rather learn to get through ALL of life's difficulties by growing as a person and becoming more self-sufficient/independent, instead of relying on something I consider to be a fairy tale to comfort me like I'm a toddler.

In my view, praying and waiting for some higher power to ease my pain and make my living situation better is just too passive.

Life is what WE make of the circumstances and events that we find ourselves in...and we ourselves are the only cure or path forward that's available.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> It's a take on a famous retort in the 1988 VP debates in the US. Then Senator Dan Quayle claimed to be like President John F. Kennedy and his debate opponent's famous retort "Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy, I knew Jack Kennedy, Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy."
> 
> You want to watch from 0.28 on.
> Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine - YouTube


Ah right, so a bit of a dig at me!

"Ooooh, ouch."

No, wait. "That was uncalled for Senator."


----------



## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I love how many Christians always take the side that they are being attacked. That they are the victims.

Please. Pam asked how atheists and agnostics cope. In no way was that one dude's post even related...he just had to defend his god and blah blah.

When someone asks about how to cope (and they are an atheist) they probably don't want to hear about Jesus Christ. At least I don't. I don't believe. It's not that I am not aware of it, I don't WANT IT.

So yea it will be met with opposition because it seems there cannot ever be a conversation about other religions or ideas or beliefs without Christians butting in to "enlighten" everyone.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

that_girl said:


> Why the big LOL after Krishna?
> 
> I lived in a temple for a while. Beautiful religion and culture.
> 
> ...


that_girl, 

The first thing I want to say is that I am so saddened to see what this thread has become. This is EXACTLY what I was talking about--that somehow we have got to find a way to be LOVING and demonstrate love by showing an interest and being respectful, not by slinging hurtful words around or demanding that everyone think like you do! *sigh* I feel like we have so far to go as a species and as Christians, that it's disappointing. 

BUT I wanted to take time to threadjack this train wreck and answer your questions if you don't mind! I thought it would be fun!

My religious background is probably the most diverse you'll ever meet in your life, because I find spirituality fascinating. I grew up in a super-typical Lutheran household... I call that "christian-by-default" because we aren't in a country that has another state religion, but we didn't really study or live a christian life or anything. Know what I mean?

I knew my whole life that what my parents spouted off about religion was a bunch of routines and didn't really MEAN anything to them, so I pretty much just ignored their words. I felt a personal connection with God when I was young, and that never really went away--I just didn't understand it very well. I had friends of every race, color and creed literally, and most of them didn't really understand their own religion a lot, but I grew up near a Bahai temple, and that was ... amazing beyond words.

Then when I graduated, moved out and went to college, I figured I would figure this out for myself, so I went on what I call my "Search For God" years. I attended and studied several major religions, (not denominations) and I studied Wicca because it's the original wise woman, right? Pam can tell ya, I'm a studier! LOL I liked and felt pretty comfortable with Judaism because it was like my version of "God the Father" and it was a very interesting religion to study. So I met a handsome Jewish guy and agreed to convert so we could get married. 

After our divorce, I did it again--searching for God--and this time I went more into the new age concepts, philosophy, formal theology...that kind of thing. It's part of the way I got to know my current Dear Hubby! 

Sooo...I answer your questions and Pam's questions with utmost respect in my heart. I didn't laugh about Krishna. I think it's a worthy study to learn about how similar Krishna and Christ are, and I personally love Krishna as the lover prince and the way he honored the 16,000. Of course, I'm also pretty much a hopeless romantic so that fits!

I did a large LOL because I'm a very happy person and I do laugh a lot. At the moment I was writing, I was thinking 'She's not saying she wants to learn about how to have faith or god and I threw out the first untypical god who came to my head, which made me giggle because everyone always jumps right to THEIR god first. Know what I mean? 

As for the "Universe" I actually did that out of respect just like I do capital C Christians and lowercase c christians...and capital God and lowercase god. To me, there is the universe with a lowercase u that means the planet, stars, and whatnot just physically existing, and there is the "Universe" which is like a name. It means "things aren't just random and there's some greater scheme of things here". Christians with a capital are folks who truly believe and then try to live a life that is as close to godly and loving and mimicking Christ as a human being can (since we're all imperfect), and christians with a lowercase are the big denomination thingy that include Protestants and Catholics who are "not something else." Some believe, some don't, some live it, some don't, some use it like a big rock, some like a social club. Finally there's God, my name for divinity, and god which is "I'm not sure exactly what name you may call your deity, but it's not just a human being or coincidence so it would be something above an angel and not just nothing." 

However I do see your point: for other things I consider a name, I didn't put "quote marks" around it. I just wanted to draw attention--this isn't the cosmos here or gravity ... it's the grander scheme that some people name "The Universe." 

So I hope that clarifies, and I do realize we may likely disagree on some things, and I'm okay with disagreeing. I don't expect people to "think like I do" or "believe like I do" because then you wouldn't be YOU, and you are unique and value in the universe. My main hope would be to be able to converse with each other respectfully and both be able to hear the other with an open heart. So far, Pam has been GREAT at doing that!! I greatly admire and respect her for that!

Regarding the rest of this thread: (shaking my head). Sad. Long way to go.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I have no doubt that Jesus existed, was a good man and helped others. 

In no way do I think he was god's son. I think his friends got a little over zealous and wrote about him. Stories.

But yea...the posts in here by most of the Christians are why I'm not a Christian.

Sorry, Pam, for jackin your thread. I hope you had a good day.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

that_girl said:


> I have no doubt that Jesus existed, was a good man and helped others.
> 
> In no way do I think he was god's son. I think his friends got a little over zealous and wrote about him. Stories.
> 
> ...


The Jefferson Bible: The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"When someone asks about how to cope (and they are an atheist) they probably don't want to hear about Jesus Christ. At least I don't. I don't believe. It's not that I am not aware of it, I don't WANT IT."

This truly never bothers me, even though I personally find most of the views and advice useless.

I know that it means a lot to them, and they are actually trying their best to be good people and assist me when I am having a hard time.

I can appreciate that.

And I also know from my very religious upbringing that there is a lot of great life wisdom in the Bible (and other religions for that matter)...I just have zero use or need for the prayer, 'salvation', and personal relationship stuff.

But I do think their hearts are in the right place as long as its not coming with self-righteous judgements (I once got told that a difficult situation in life was the result of God punishing me for being an unrepentant sinner and agnostic).


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Also sorry for the jack Pam.

I can only echo the thoughts of some of the other posters here, Dyokkem, TG, Thorburn etc.

I must apologise but I haven't read your back story so not sure if you are separated or not. Are there any clubs/meetings/get togethers for betrayed spouses/separated people?

There are also some very open churches that will not mind that you are atheist/agnostic and are only to pleased to help anyone without preaching at them and saving them.

Of course you've also got TAM, it's an infectious place.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, the first poster was condescending. It set the tone.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

WyshIknew said:


> Also sorry for the jack Pam.
> 
> I can only echo the thoughts of some of the other posters here, Dyokkem, TG, Thorburn etc.
> 
> ...


I didn't mind the thread jack guys. It was distracting. He left our family for the OW and filed for divorce after a 3 month EA that turned into a 4 week PA fling.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Pamvhv said:


> I didn't mind the thread jack guys. It was distracting. He left our family for the OW and filed for divorce after *a 3 month EA that turned into a 4 week PA fling.*


Haven't followed your other thread in a while... any changes? The part in bold above would seem to imply that he's back home...?


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> If one was to look at the years from 1900 till about the year 2000, one would find that roughly 94 million people died under an ideology that dismissed the concept of God. An additional 28 million died under fascism.


The key difference being that christians butchered countless in the name of their god. They actually considered their actions justified due to the stamping out of those that opposed their religion.

And lets not get into numbers. If you directly or indirectly equate the christian religion and the butchering of cultures, other religions, women, scientists, and factions within Christianity (ie, protestants and catholics) it would take me a long, long time to calculate that number. 

In the examples you gave, those groups were no killing in the name of atheism or agnosticism. They were killing to gain control in a certain type of government structure.

Please spare me the fallacious christian reasoning.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> This may very well be the *funniest f*cking thing* that I've read so far this year.


True story Gus - as God is my witness


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Haven't followed your other thread in a while... any changes? The part in bold above would seem to imply that he's back home...?


Nope. Never coming home as far as I'm concerned.  I just went and bought all my new furniture from our joint account today actually.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Pamvhv said:


> Nope. Never coming home as far as I'm concerned.  I just went and bought all my new furniture from our joint account today actually.


Good for you!


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

New furniture is always good 

Relax and enjoy


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

I guess my problem is we moved out here and only had each other. There's a time difference to all my friends and family and when I really need a reality check or to wail they are in bed.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Pamvhv said:


> I guess my problem is we moved out here and only had each other. There's a time difference to all my friends and family and when I really need a reality check or to wail they are in bed.


I'm speaking as a mom here: CALL THEM ANYWAY. 

If one of my kids or my sister needed me, I don't care if it's 3am. In fact all our family and friends have the same rule: you can literally call or come over day or night, but if you come between 3am and say about 9am, I'll be in jammies with bad breath and bed head. If your sitch is bigger than bad breath and bed head, then come on over!


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Not an athiest, but I often try to imagine all my stress and pain gathering up into a ball and I imagine releasing it into the air. As a believer, I ask God to take those things...but I suppose you could just imagine your stress and hurt and worry going into the nameless void.


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## Growapair (Sep 19, 2013)

I do wonder, If Jesus was executed 30 years ago with the electric chair, instead of 2000 years ago on the cross, would Christians of today wear a small electric chairs around their necks?


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Growapair said:


> I do wonder, If Jesus was executed 30 years ago with the electric chair, instead of 2000 years ago on the cross, would Christians of today wear a small electric chairs around their necks?


:rofl:


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Now I expect several Christians will be offended, and honestly that's not intended to be offensive.
Crucifixion was merely the preferred method of execution 2000 years ago. The act was not significant.


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## Growapair (Sep 19, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> Now I expect several Christians will be offended, and honestly that's not intended to be offensive.
> Crucifixion was merely the preferred method of execution 2000 years ago. The act was not significant.


I certainly did not mean to offend. But you have to ask, why the infatuation with the method of the act? I can understand the significance of Jesus and his work to Christians, but I cant understand the significance of the cross. Thus asking the question, would it have mattered if a different method was used.


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

WyshIknew said:


> Never heard of that one. Cool that you know Mike Godwin. Was that from when he was on Usenet?



it was texan, lloyd bentsen.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Pamvhv said:


> It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.


You can always, as a scientist, hope that the natural order of things will restore balance.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Allen_A said:


> You can always, as a scientist, hope that the natural order of things will restore balance.


The first law of thermodynamics says life always gets more complicated.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

FormerSelf said:


> Not an athiest, but I often try to imagine all my stress and pain gathering up into a ball and I imagine releasing it into the air. As a believer, I ask God to take those things...but I suppose you could just imagine your stress and hurt and worry going into the *nameless void*.



The universe...energy returning to energy...being renewed.

lol.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ScrambledEggs said:


> The first law of thermodynamics says life always gets more complicated.


Maybe that's what balance is, complexity.

Who knows...


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Growapair said:


> I do wonder, If Jesus was executed 30 years ago with the electric chair, instead of 2000 years ago on the cross, would Christians of today wear a small electric chairs around their necks?


I'd prefer a lightning bolt, like The Flash.

Some denoms are a little more morbid than others...like in the Philippines every Easter, some people are willing to actually get nailed to a cross...or some orders believe a proper representation is a blue-skinned Jesus because he would have been asphyxiated...while some evangelicals get downright angry to see a crucifix (namely, a cross icon with a Christ figure affixed)...but they will dangle crosses everywhere.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

FormerSelf said:


> ...or some orders believe a proper representation is a *blue-skinned* Jesus because he would have been asphyxiated....


Damn. That throws a bit of a wrench into things. 

The next time I answered the door on a faith peddler I wanted to be naked, painted blue (like a Pict), holding a half empty bottle of tequila and wearing a goat skull.

Knowing that they might see this as a (perhaps) overly exuberant expression of our (obviously) shared faith kinda takes the fun out of it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

LOL and they say other groups are "cults". Wow.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Pamvhv said:


> Prince Charming found a random corpse in the woods and decided to kiss it. That's all you need to know about men. .


LOVE that signature Pam!!! 

:rofl:


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Pamvhv said:


> Prince Charming found a random corpse in the woods and decided to kiss it. That's all you need to know about men.





Allen_A said:


> LOVE that signature Pam!!!
> 
> :rofl:


While it's funny enough, one could argue that Sleeping Beauty could not have quite been considered a "corpse".

And maybe that's all that anyone really needs to know about women...?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

GusPolinski said:


> While it's funny enough, one could argue that Sleeping Beauty could not have quite been considered a "corpse".
> 
> And maybe that's all that anyone really needs to know about women...?


It all sounds rather rapey to me... But there were dwarves, a cottage and various animal 'friends'.... So she's one of those freaks. I think his picker is broken.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Pamvhv said:


> It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.





Vocaroo | Voice message


Pam, reading your original post reminded me of a quote by George Bernard Shaw.

I hesitated posting it because there had been enough friction between the Christians and the atheists.

However I am going to post it but I will state that it is not intended as a dig at Christians, I just thought it applicable to your post.

The whole passage that the quote comes from could be interpreted as a bit controversial so if you want to see it let me know and I can PM or you can just google it. Of course you may already know the passage. I believe it is from Androcles and the Lion.

George Bernard Shaw.

_The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life. _

While I agree with GBS I would say that if members of a church can help someone going through any type of pain then does it really matter if an atheist thinks it is bunk? More kudos to them if they can help someone.

Further threadjack.

An amusing incident on Androcles and the Lion (I think anyway)

As a schoolboy one of our required reads was Androcles. The teacher decided that we would read it as a play.

One of my roles was a herald and my part was to cry out "make way for the King's bullocks"

Unfortunately I had never heard bullocks being pronounced.

When it was my turn to speak I shouted in my most heraldic voice "Make way for the King's bollocks." (bollocks is Brit slang for mens testicles).

The whole class erupted with laughter, the teacher had to leave the room he was laughing so hard.
I just sat there burning red with embarrassment.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> While it's funny enough, one could argue that Sleeping Beauty could not have quite been considered a "corpse".
> 
> And maybe that's all that anyone really needs to know about women...?


I don't think her quote said anything about sleeping beauty.

I thought that was the point of it. Maybe i just don't get it? lol


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

WyshIknew said:


> Vocaroo | Voice message
> 
> 
> Pam, reading your original post reminded me of a quote by George Bernard Shaw.
> ...


Perfect quote and :rofl:that's Freakin' Hilararious!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Racer said:


> It all sounds rather rapey to me... But there were dwarves, a cottage and various animal 'friends'.... So she's one of those freaks. I think his picker is broken.


That was Snow White.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

In early versions of Sleeping Beauty, she was in fact raped by a nobleman as she slept.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> I use people and myself.
> 
> Since I don't expect God to deliver me from pain, I open myself up to people. Sometimes this means more pain but it's part of being human. At the same time, opening up to people means I am not alone, I'm not just me dealing with whatever I'm dealing with. These people may ore may not deliver me from pain but they remind me of my humanity, that I don't suffer alone.
> 
> ...



I tell my sons that being an Atheist is a hard road to travel if you're a moral person with a concious. Your "sin's" cannot be absolved by a higher authority, you cannot blame natures acts of cruelty on "Gods will" and you will be misunderstood by the weak minded. It's a lonely path that takes courage and inner strength to navigate.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

My path isn't lonely and I don't expect a magic man to say my "sins" are forgiven.

Life is about choices. Good and bad, they are all lessons. So we eff up, oh well, it's a lesson. Learn from it and keep going on your path.

But yea, not lonely. And anything takes inner strength and courage if it's worth it.


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## CluelessWif (Jun 20, 2014)

Pamvhv said:


> It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.


I dealt with the pain. Now I am not saying that to be an ass. I am great at compartmentalizing, so I just didn't go there. It is something I had to learn after cancer. It took years to realize that I am not a "cancer-survivor," I am a person who was afflicted with cancer. It was the same thing with betrayal. I refused to allow someone else's actions to define who I am.

Whose fault is it that he cheated? His. Were there problems? Sure, but those problems had nothing to do with cheating. He added that layer. So I trusted science. I put my faith in my knowledge of science, and the fact that there were more warning signs then just the cheating. We embarked on a severe course of therapy that gave us a diagnosis and an action plan.

You find your way through by doing, not thinking. For a while life is a process of flow charts and if-then logic statements. I didn't know for sure that I wanted to stay married for over a year, but I knew I wanted to try. As long as he kept showing his commitment at every stage we pushed forward to the next.

Put your faith in yourself, make the decision you deserve, and get it done.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

that_girl said:


> My path isn't lonely and I don't expect a magic man to say my "sins" are forgiven.
> 
> Life is about choices. Good and bad, they are all lessons. So we eff up, oh well, it's a lesson. Learn from it and keep going on your path.
> 
> But yea, not lonely. And anything takes inner strength and courage if it's worth it.


I think the loneliness aspect of it depends on where you are. If you're in the bible belt good luck finding like minded sane individuals who you can confide in when you need to. My sons have been in classroom situations where they found themselves very alone in their atheistic opinions. In two cases their final grades actually suffered for it. There's definately a price to pay in certain company. As adults we can choose who we associate with outside of work but at work you still have to be careful.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Oh i meant I'm not lonely with myself.

I don't have really anyone who thinks how I think.

But I'd never move to the bible belt so there's that. I'd rather cut my eyes out.

I think CA is way more liberal (duh) so I don't know of this "being careful" about what you believe at work. Christians (at my work) spout out often about what they believe and a few have wanted to share the "Good News" with me. lmao.. Everyone should be allowed to state their beliefs. .


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## Thinkitthrough (Sep 5, 2012)

Pamvhv I think I saw that film with that corpse kissing stuff: Prince Charming vs. The Zombie Horde. Same people who made Abe Lincoln Vampire Slayer. It's funny how a pound of butter, sugar and flower keeps the dark side at bay.
I have a sense that the friction that was mentioned above has more to do with the person than the faith.
I taught a Society course a while ago and human evolution both genetic and societal. I felt that I was bound to present The Creationist view along with the Scientific. I couldn't do the theory justice so I asked a friend Cliff to do it. Now Cliff believed that God made the earth some 7,000 years ago, men shared the earth with dinosaurs until the flood swept them away, etc.
Cliff was perhaps the most decent man I have ever met. he dealt with the most difficult students we had. He was so mild, gentle and soft spoken that we worried the class would him done by lunch, instead he had them He travelled into their dark places reached out his hand and brought so many of them back to the light.
Cliff lived his faith ever day and even if I never saw his light I would never doubt that he saw it. When his young wife died, leaving him with four children under four, his church community gathered around him and helped him through. Some three years later he fell in love with one of the women who had helped. They were a perfect fit at all levels.
So he did his thing,I did mine and respectively treated each other and the topic with respect and dignity. We often talked about faith, religion and good, but we never bickered or fought about it. I still remember him with affection. it just wasn't in me to give myself to god, but I couldn't help but admire him.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> "Evangelical" atheism is one of the most fervently rabid movements that I've ever witnessed, and I have no doubt that, if it were at all acceptable to do so, there would be Saganites, Tysonists, and Nyeians aplenty cutting huge, bloody swaths across the southeastern U.S.


I have no idea what evangelical atheism could possibly be. Like Tyson has said on a number of occasions, I don't consider myself an atheist, though others probably describe me as one - mainly because they need 2 for some reason.

Atheism isn't a religion, any more than not collecting stamps is a hobby. Religious people - or anyone needing 2 label things they don't understand with words they think they do understand - seem 2 confuse the lack of belief in a god with the belief in the lack of a god. I don't believe in god, but I don't go 2 churches and sing hymns and listen 2 testimonies from others about how strongly they believe there is no god. What would be the point? Honestly, I don't think much about the issue until some zealot comes along and tries 2 tell me my scientific understandings are wrong because they're not in the Bible. Then the freakin' gloves come off!

I'm a scientist. I knew Sagan and I know Nye. I've never met Tyson, but I've listened 2 his radio show, watched the remake of Cosmos. They're all good people. Smart, 2. But they ARE people and there are things about them that I'm not crazy about. I think Tyson did a good job with the new Cosmos.



> Religion is, by it's very definition, a human construct, and no one ever truly needed a deity of any flavor to visit intolerance, subjugation, and suffering upon our fellow man. Well... unless, of course, you're looking to rope in a bunch of willing participants -- it can be really handy then.




-ol' 2long

Education is what frees all of us from this tortuous cycle.[/QUOTE]


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Any shred of religious belief I had died with my marriage. I am firmly agnostic now and won't attend church. As far as getting over pain or praying for it to be gone I wouldn't even if I was still religious. I need my pain as a reminder that doing stupid things have consequences...so don't do that anymore.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Any shred of religious belief I had died with my marriage. I am firmly agnostic now and won't attend church. As far as getting over pain or praying for it to be gone I wouldn't even if I was still religious.* I need my pain as a reminder that doing stupid things have consequences...so don't do that anymore.*


Oh, no, no you don't need that pain! Let it fade! 

If you need a reminder that doing stupid things has consequences, put it as a recurring entry on your calendar. Don't hold onto pain. Do non-stupid things instead.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

Coffee Amore said:


> It's a take on a famous retort in the 1988 VP debates in the US. Then Senator Dan Quayle claimed to be like President John F. Kennedy and his debate opponent's famous retort "Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy, I knew Jack Kennedy, Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy."
> 
> You want to watch from 0.28 on.
> Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine - YouTube


That worked SO WELL because Dan Quayle was such an unmitigated idiot.

-ol' 2long


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Once you heal and grow, bad things that happen are just learning stones.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

guspolinski said:


> "evangelical" atheism is one of the most fervently rabid movements that i've ever witnessed, and i have no doubt that, if it were at all acceptable to do so, there would be saganites, tysonists, and nyeians aplenty cutting huge, bloody swaths across the southeastern u.s.
> 
> Religion is, by it's very definition, a human construct, and no one ever truly needed a deity of any flavor to visit intolerance, subjugation, and suffering upon our fellow man. Well... Unless, of course, you're looking to rope in a bunch of willing participants -- it can be really handy then.
> 
> Education is what frees all of us from this tortuous cycle.









Evangelical Atheists


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

FormerSelf said:


> In early versions of Sleeping Beauty, she was in fact raped by a nobleman as she slept.


C'mon man, I was trying to be all Disney up in here...


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

My take on atheism:

Atheism is a religion. If I as a Christian ask "are you a Christian?" And you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Jew asks you, "are you a Jew?" and you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Muslim asks you, "Are you a Muslim?" And you reply, "No, I am an Atheist. Aren't these religious questions?

Atheism is a religion. Atheists have dogma, "There is no god and there is no afterlife and this is all there is."

Atheism has denominations just like other religions:

1. Gnostic Atheist - not only believes there are no gods, he also claims to know there are no gods.
2. Agnostic atheist - doesn’t believe in gods, but doesn’t claim to know there are no gods.
3. A negative atheist merely lacks a belief in gods. 
4. A positive atheist not only lacks a belief in gods, but also affirms that no gods exist. 
5. Broad atheist denies the existence of all gods: Zeus, Thor, Yahweh, Shiva, and so on.
6. A narrow atheist denies the existence of the traditional Western omni-God who is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful. 
7. An unfriendly atheist believes no one is justified in believing that gods exist.
8. An indifferent atheist doesn’t have a belief on whether or not others are justified in believing that gods exist. 
9. A friendly atheist believes that some theists are justified in believing that gods exist.
10. A closet atheist has not yet revealed his disbelief to most people. 
11. An open atheist has revealed his disbelief to most people.
12. A passive atheist doesn’t believe in god but doesn’t try to influence the world in favor of atheism.
13. An evangelical atheist tries to persuade others to give up theistic belief. 
14. An active atheist labors on behalf of causes that specifically benefit atheists (but not necessarily just atheists). For example, he strives against discrimination toward atheists, or he strives in favor of separation of church and state. 
15. A militant atheist uses violence to promote atheism or destroy religion. 
16. Enchanted Atheist - enchanted includes those that still get mystical intuitions inspite of being an atheist.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Thorburn said:


> My take on atheism:
> 
> Atheism is a religion. If I as a Christian ask "are you a Christian?" And you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Jew asks you, "are you a Jew?" and you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Muslim asks you, "Are you a Muslim?" And you reply, "No, I am an Atheist. Aren't these religious questions?
> 
> ...


This "Atheism is religion" stuff is really tiresome. Whatever labels you use this is what defines the two approaches appropriately.

A person of faith has beliefs that are exempt from the standards of reason and evidence that are typically required for an idea to be considered true.​
An person of reason requires that all his or her held beliefs meet the standards of reason and evidence that are typically required for an idea to be considered true.​

I am sure there are people who call themselves atheists who have no idea what that really means. There are lots of misguided people out there of all flavors. Their existence does not broaden the meaning of atheism into something insupportable or make it the rhetorical equal to any faith.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> Atheists have dogma, "There is no god and there is no afterlife and this is all there is.


I think that if we had a dogma it would be more of something like " Show me. Until then I'll live like there's no god and no afterlife and this is all there is."


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Why does it matter? Let atheists be atheists and god-believers be god-believers.

I know it pains the minds of some god-believers that there are some people that simply have NO religion or faith based beliefs. I know it is hard to put that into a box into their brain because their faith based beliefs are so important to them.

But when people try to tell other people what they are, it's irritating.

I could get into my beliefs, but I rarely do...lol. I'm not atheist, but believe in no god. Maybe that makes me agnostic to some...but I just believe what I believe. No labels required.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> My take on atheism:
> 
> Atheism is a religion. If I as a Christian ask "are you a Christian?" And you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Jew asks you, "are you a Jew?" and you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Muslim asks you, "Are you a Muslim?" And you reply, "No, I am an Atheist. Aren't these religious questions?
> 
> ...


Some of those "denominations" are just a bit iffy to me.

Closet Christianity is not a denomination.. now is it? lol


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

And I think everyone should strive in favor of separation of Church and State.

No religion should have ANY say on ANY laws in this country.

Vote your conscience. That's all you should be able to do. 

But creating laws in favor of a religion is not only ethically wrong, but constitutional wrong as well.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Thorburn said:


> My take on atheism:
> 
> Atheism is a religion. If I as a Christian ask "are you a Christian?" And you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Jew asks you, "are you a Jew?" and you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Muslim asks you, "Are you a Muslim?" And you reply, "No, I am an Atheist. Aren't these religious questions?.


But it's not religion. As we're discussing religion here, the definition is "an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods." 

Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist. One of those fails that definition. What's your religion? Atheist is the "D. None of the above" answer.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Buddhism is an atheistic religion.

No gods.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Allen_A said:


> Buddhism is an atheistic religion.
> 
> No gods.


True, but it has all those other components.. making it quasi-atheistic and being practiced as a religion. Scientology might fit into that as well.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> My take on atheism:
> 
> Atheism is a religion. If I as a Christian ask "are you a Christian?" And you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Jew asks you, "are you a Jew?" and you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Muslim asks you, "Are you a Muslim?" And you reply, "No, I am an Atheist. Aren't these religious questions?


Perhaps, but the answers aren't necessarily religious. I don't understand why a religious person "needs" atheism 2 be just another bloody religion.



> Atheism is a religion. Atheists have dogma, "There is no god and there is no afterlife and this is all there is."


Well, what if I told you that, while I don't believe in God, I don't preclude there being some kind of afterlife. And I don't mean reincarnation as a cow in India or Shirley MacClaine's great grandson or anything like that. There are hundreds of billions of galaxies in this universe alone, each containing hundreds of billions of suns with, on average, several planets each. That's pretty close 2 infinite possibilities for places for my consciousness 2 go 2 if there's any reason for it 2 go anywhere after my body croaks. 

I think that what I might be saying here is that there may be a god, but if there is, it's nothing like our puny human imaginations have conceived of it. The universe and its contents are pretty amazing, wonderful things. I don't need others' imaginary friend 2 make life seem complete or fulfilled. So, whatever the answer 2 life the universe and everything, I'm content 2 going back 2 the continuum from whence I came after I'm done here.



> Atheism has denominations just like other religions:


Imagine away. I don't care. Your list strikes me as little more than mental mas2rbation. Maybe I'm not an atheist, by your definition, then. That's okay.

-ol' 2long


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

ScrambledEggs said:


> This "Atheism is religion" stuff is really tiresome. Whatever labels you use this is what defines the two approaches appropriately.
> 
> A person of faith has beliefs that are exempt from the standards of reason and evidence that are typically required for an idea to be considered true.​
> An person of reason requires that all his or her held beliefs meet the standards of reason and evidence that are typically required for an idea to be considered true.​
> ...


I was not being serious and perhaps made a feeble attempt at poking fun at those folks who do attempt to argue that atheism is a religion, by stating questions and coming to a conclusion which is not logical.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

Allen_A said:


> Buddhism is an atheistic religion.
> 
> No gods.


Buddha was a deadbeat dad.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

Thorburn said:


> I was not being serious and perhaps made a feeble attempt at poking fun at those folks who do attempt to argue that atheism is a religion, by stating questions and coming to a conclusion which is not logical.


Actually I read an article recently and it showed that deep belief in science had the same effects on the brain as a deep belief in a god. So you're still worshiping something.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> My take on atheism:
> 
> Atheism is a religion. If I as a Christian ask "are you a Christian?" And you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Jew asks you, "are you a Jew?" and you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Muslim asks you, "Are you a Muslim?" And you reply, "No, I am an Atheist. Aren't these religious questions?
> 
> ...


What is that quote, can't remember who penned it and not sure of the exact quote, it goes something like this.

"I contend that we are both atheists, I just disbelieve one more God than you do."


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

that_girl said:


> And I think everyone should strive in favor of separation of Church and State.
> 
> No religion should have ANY say on ANY laws in this country.
> 
> ...


That is definitely one area where America is more advanced than the UK.

Bishops even get to sit in the House of Lords.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Pamvhv said:


> Actually I read an article recently and it showed that deep belief in science had the same effects on the brain as a deep belief in a god. So you're still worshiping something.



Interesting. Can you share the link? There was a recent study done by a Harvard professor: In the study, published in the current issue of Journal of Affective Disorders, researchers comment that people with a moderate to high level of belief in a higher power do significantly better in short-term psychiatric treatment than those without.

“Belief was associated with not only improved psychological well-being, but decreases in depression and intention to self-harm,” says David H. Rosmarin, Ph.D., an instructor in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Pamvhv said:


> Actually I read an article recently and it showed that deep belief in science had the same effects on the brain as a deep belief in a god. So you're still worshiping something.


I think that if you have a 'belief' in science and a slavish adherence to it and its theories, hypothesis etc then yes I can see that.

What we need to realise is scientists are just people and they can and have been wrong.

I don't 'believe' in science I merely accept that the scientific method is the best way to understand the world around us.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

WyshIknew said:


> What is that quote, can't remember who penned it and not sure of the exact quote, it goes something like this.
> 
> "I contend that we are both atheists, I just disbelieve one fewer God than you do."


I think that is in one of Richard Dawkin's books


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> I think that is in one of Richard Dawkin's books


Found it.

I got it completely wrong, it's the old age doncha know. It comes to all of us.

Attributed to Stephen Roberts.


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I dont go to church. I really havent since I was forced to go as a kid. I have no plans to ever attend church. I'm a good man. I do right by people. I am a good man because that is my nature. I have morals, ethics, honesty, and integrity not because a being who may or may not exists tells me to be that way, its because thats the way I choose to live my life.

I hear all the time from church nuts that not going to church on sundays will keep me out of heaven. Well, some of the ugliest, greediest, and hateful people I know are all regular church goers. Monday through Saturday these people would rather spit on you than help you. Yet every sunday there they are at church praising love and gods way.

You're gonna sit there and tell me that person goes to heaven based strictly on the fact that they attend church every sunday, yet someone like me wont because I dont go? 

Whats wrong with that picture?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> My take on atheism:
> 
> Atheism is a religion. If I as a Christian ask "are you a Christian?" And you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Jew asks you, "are you a Jew?" and you reply, "No I am an Atheist". If a Muslim asks you, "Are you a Muslim?" And you reply, "No, I am an Atheist.


actually I just reply "no"

but thanks for assuming


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> Atheism has denominations just like other religions:
> 
> 1. Gnostic Atheist - not only believes there are no gods, he also claims to know there are no gods.
> 2. Agnostic atheist - doesn’t believe in gods, but doesn’t claim to know there are no gods.
> ...


denominations?!

uh no, just varying descriptions that attempt to define one's belief and none of those "denominations" are organized sects like a Presbyterian or Reform Jew have set up with leaders, churches/temples and rules 

what those terms describe is just like terms describing a thought process as being Socratic
or a therapist being Freudian
or system of government being socialist

none of those are religions


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

re·li·gion
riˈlijən/
noun
noun: religion

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
synonyms:	faith, belief, worship, creed; More
sect, church, cult, denomination
"the freedom to practice their own religion"
a particular system of faith and worship.
plural noun: religions
"the world's great religions"
a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
"consumerism is the new religion"


all three definitions do not apply to athiesism


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

How I missed the dancing turtle


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

WyshIknew said:


> That is definitely one area where America is more advanced than the UK.
> 
> Bishops even get to sit in the House of Lords.


Oh but it's not!

Religious groups are always lobbying to discriminate and oppress people that "live against the bible".

I mean...a lot of our country still won't accept that gay people exist in a fashion outside of their stereotypes. NO gay marriage allowed! It will RUIN the idea of marriage.

:rofl: OK! I think heterosexuals (many of them Christian) have ruined it, but ok. I know a lot of Christians who had "1st marriages" but I guess THAT'S ok because there was a penis and vagina involved.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I guess I am not atheist from reading the definition.

I do no believe in a God or any gods...but I do believe in an afterlife. Not like Heaven or Hell (lol) but more of just where the souls are. Energy cannot be created or destroyed so where does the soul go? I know a soul exists because when I saw my grandfather at his wake, he looked NOTHING like himself. I don't know why that convinced me that souls exist but it did. 

I believe that souls are reborn to experience life again and again and balance our karma...good or bad. I think this accounts for my LOVE of the civil war. As a young kid, maybe 8 or 9, I would ask my mom to take me to the library so I could read about the civil war  I bought books. I read Gone with the Wind about 10 times. Other parts of history call out to me as well ..I believe that some souls are a family and that's why when you sometimes meet someone, it feels like you already love them and have known them forever. It's happened 3 times for me in this lifetime. It's not always a romantic love or sexual love, but just Love.

I don't believe that children are clean slates with no prior knowledge to life or that they are truly 4 or 5 or 11 years old. My own daughters prove that to me. My 14 year old swears she's in her 40s. And I believe that. That's not to say I don't have rules and blah blah but this child has been riding me like a mother since she could talk :rofl: "You got in late last night." "Is that your 2nd glass of wine? hmm?" "How many helpings have you had?" "I noticed your bed is unmade." Yea. THAT is my child. Amg. I used to get annoyed and irritated but something happened last year where she and I had a big talk about what we believe and it turns out we believe the same things. She told me that she feels 41 :lol: And was SO FRUSTRATED that she had to go through HS again. But now, when she nags, I just saw, "Ok, Mom"....and we laugh. Maybe she was my mother in a past life, who knows.

I probably sound silly to people but I guess it's no more silly than someone talking about believing in God and some book men wrote thousands of years ago.

But that's how I know I'm not alone in this world. I'm here to do what I was put here to do...and sometimes those adventures are painful and difficult. But I try to do then with the best intentions and learn from the lessons that are all around me.

So..probably not an atheist...just me.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

I think this thread is getting way off the beaten path.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm fairly certain we can derail it more...


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)




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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Allen_A said:


> I think this thread is getting way off the beaten path.


It started with one of the first posts. Oh well.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Totally aliens.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Why does it always have to be about God, and always THE God, as if the stories in the Bible are really that much more believable than other brands of mythology? My belief system is not predicated on the existence or lack of existence of a god... and I try not to devote all of my energy into things I can't possibly understand, because given the limited evidence and tiny brain that I've been provided, I'd just end up creating my own stories to believe. I'd rather focus on things that are real, outcomes that can be predicted and repeated, things people have in common, and ways to improve the real world and our collective situation here on Earth.

Many of the atheists I know have more Christ in their hearts than so many of the judgmental Christians I encounter; but at least rabid atheists have the right to feel attacked, as religion has probably made daily encroachments on their lives. We're against the current, we feel more isolated, we can't pray to God for comfort, and we don't get a happy ending in heaven. Bad things happen, good things happen, and we don't always know why. On top of this, others perceive our very beliefs as an attack on them and their way of life. Just look at this thread... all Pam tried to do was carve a small corner to talk about our shared perspectives. 

I hope that our future atheistic overlords will show believers more respect than we have been shown.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It's like when my mother got offended that I became a vegetarian.

lol! It was like I was saying her way of life was bad, which is not what I was doing...I couldn't care less what she ate.

But she made it a point to put me down about it every time I saw her.

That was her problem, not mine.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Cabsy said:


> Why does it always have to be about God, and always THE God, as if the stories in the Bible are really that much more believable than other brands of mythology? My belief system is not predicated on the existence or lack of existence of a god... and I try not to devote all of my energy into things I can't possibly understand, because given the limited evidence and tiny brain that I've been provided, I'd just end up creating my own stories to believe.


What on earth does any of that have to do with infidelity?


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> What on earth does any of that have to do with infidelity?


Out of all the posts in here, this is the one you're going to call out for being off topic? At least I touched on the topic, for several lines, which is more than I could say about most posts in this thread.


> We're against the current, we feel more isolated, we can't pray to God for comfort, and we don't get a happy ending in heaven. Bad things happen, good things happen, and we don't always know why. On top of this, others perceive our very beliefs as an attack on them and their way of life. Just look at this thread... all Pam tried to do was carve a small corner to talk about our shared perspectives.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

that_girl said:


> I believe that souls are reborn to experience life again and again and balance our karma...good or bad. I think this accounts for my LOVE of the civil war.


I am entirely convinced that one day I will be looking through an old book and there will be a picture. In that picture will be me in the background kicking the crap out of a dog.

Thats the only explanation for how horrible this life has been. I mustve done something really messed up in a former life.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

hawx20 said:


> I am entirely convinced that one day I will be looking through an old book and there will be a picture. In that picture will be me in the background kicking the crap out of a dog.
> 
> Thats the only explanation for how horrible this life has been. I mustve done something really messed up in a former life.


 I'm sorry. I'm a good listener if you want to PM.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I tried to keep this topic on topic. The OP says she doesn't mind.

Oh well. Let it flow.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Cabsy said:


> Out of all the posts in here, this is the one you're going to call out for being off topic? At least I touched on the topic, for several lines, which is more than I could say about most posts in this thread.


It was not that one specifically. I just keep poking in here and the topic is getting so far off marital support it's just funny.

I am more or less addressing most of the posts, including my own.

Even if Buddhism is an atheistic religion, it isnt' helping anyone's marriage to state the fact. lol

:rofl:


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> It was not that one specifically. I just keep poking in here and the topic is getting so far off marital support it's just funny.
> 
> I am more or less addressing most of the posts, including my own.
> 
> ...


It may be helping Pam. Even the off-topic bits seemed to be fine with her, as that girl said. As I said in my first post, one of the big things a person can lose along with faith is a sense of community, and so you end up feeling isolated from other believers and certainly from God. With no higher power to call upon or better place to dream about, everything feels a little bit harsher.

When something bad happens to you, like being betrayed by a loved one, you don't have the playbook that Christian people might have... pray, go to church, get support, etc. If you desire these things, then you have to find something else to meet your needs. Talking here is... one form of therapy


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

That's interesting, Cabsy, because I've never felt removed from God because I truly think there is no God. 

I've never wished I had what religious people have. I grew up in that. I know the fakeness they portray and how much they judge. No thanks.

Not all people feel isolated or removed from some special club. I'm quite content pulling into myself to help myself.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Cabsy said:


> It may be helping Pam. Even the off-topic bits seemed to be fine with her, as that girl said. As I said in my first post, one of the big things a person can lose along with faith is a sense of community, and so you end up feeling isolated from other believers and certainly from God. With no higher power to call upon or better place to dream about, everything feels a little bit harsher.
> 
> When something bad happens to you, like being betrayed by a loved one, you don't have the playbook that Christian people might have... pray, go to church, get support, etc. If you desire these things, then you have to find something else to meet your needs. Talking here is... one form of therapy




community is most certainly a benefit for church going members, I recognize that but it's not like you need church in particular to get that sense of belonging or support

in fact it is an excellent point to bring up to join some sort of group, whether therapy related, hobby related, socially related, community service related or the like would be an excellent idea for Pam


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Where do you even find that kind of thing?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

local government is a start, most have community centers with flyers and info on local charity groups or support groups

the internet is also an easy way to find it, meetup.com is one example


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Off-topic:

Religion is an extra level of characteristics added over top of the basic layer of being human. Atheists are merely in the default state, and don't see any value in having that extra layer added on to them. That we call them atheists instead of something else just demonstrates how pervasive religion is, that the default state of being without it is termed by what it lacks instead of by what it is on its own.

On-topic:


Pamvhv said:


> It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.


There is comfort in believing someone else will solve your problems for you.
There is comfort in believing that the unpleasantness you are experiencing must have a valid rationale behind it.
There is comfort in having someone to unburden yourself to.
There is comfort in abdicating responsibility for your own wrongdoings.
There is comfort in believing that prayer is of the same effectiveness as actually doing to the trouble of taking action.

Atheists believe this comfort is based on emptiness.

Comfort for atheists is derived from having people to confide in. And not people who say they will pray for you or suggest you try turning to God, but people who support you with concrete action and according to your own beliefs and needs, not theirs.

Comfort for atheists is derived from taking action to solve their own problems instead of hoping they will solve themselves.

Atheists accept that the world is random and that people act in their own best interests, and they pick themselves up from misfortune and being used by others, and carry on by learning from their experiences.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Almostrecovered said:


> community is most certainly a benefit for church going members, I recognize that but it's not like you need church in particular to get that sense of belonging or support
> 
> in fact it is an excellent point to bring up to join some sort of group, whether therapy related, hobby related, socially related, community service related or the like would be an excellent idea for Pam


I get all the community I need from my motorcycle snake cult.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

that_girl said:


> That's interesting, Cabsy, because I've never felt removed from God because I truly think there is no God.
> 
> I've never wished I had what religious people have. I grew up in that. I know the fakeness they portray and how much they judge. No thanks.
> 
> Not all people feel isolated or removed from some special club. I'm quite content pulling into myself to help myself.


Well obviously I don't either... and it should be clear from my posts that I'm never going back to religion unless God comes down to explain everything, booming voice and all, while holding his driver's license and 2 separate forms of ID. I don't know if we were created or if we just came about, and as I said before, I'll probably never know. Rather than focus on others' stories about what life it about, I'd rather find out what I'm about and live that path.

I don't miss what religious people have & for the very same reasons as you, but I once had faith myself, and I know how good it can feel - especially when times are hard. As a child I went from sharing a belief in God with every person I knew... every family member, friend, and role-model... to being utterly alone in my disbelief. It wasn't until several years later that I found others who thought like me, and we didn't exactly spread the good word about it.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Off-topic:Comfort for atheists is derived from having people to confide in.* And not people who say they will pray for you or suggest you try turning to God*, but people who support you with concrete action and according to your own beliefs and needs, not theirs.
> .


I've generally found that people who say this or who make these suggestions don't do so out of judgement (this is what comes of being a non believer!) or any misguided attempt to bring me 'into the fold'. If they know me and know that I'm an atheist, I think they mostly do it because they can't understand my position and the only suggestion they feel that they can make is what works for them 

I do find comfort in knowing that my religious friends think and care enough about me to make an attempt to help me within their own reference frame. More often than not, when this happens, I end up in a lively discussion with them (very similar to this thread) over a beer (or a spliff in the case of my rasta friend Davy). 

That can help to pull me up out of the pit or at least briefly take my mind off things.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

lostmyreligion said:


> I do find comfort in knowing that my religious friends think and care enough about me to make an attempt to help me within their own reference frame.


Hmm, thank you, I hadn't thought of it that way. To me it always seemed like empty words when there would be so much more helpfulness in baking me a casserole or offering to babysit or loaning me money to get through a tough time.

Saying "I'll pray for you," always seemed to be just a lazy cop-out from actually doing the work of cooking or babysitting.

Fortunately for my opinions on religion, there are people willing to do both.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Cabsy said:


> When something bad happens to you, like being betrayed by a loved one, you don't have the playbook that Christian people might have... pray, go to church, get support, etc. If you desire these things, then you have to find something else to meet your needs. Talking here is... one form of therapy


That's baloney.

There are many great non-religious books out there to help someone resolve marital problems, including infidelity.

In fact, most of the better ones aren't religious at all.

Non-religious people can get support just as readily a as a religious person can. And most people pray in one way or another whether they are religious or not.

And there are lots of alternatives to a church out there.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

Cabsy said:


> I don't know if we were created or if we just came about, and as I said before, I'll probably never know.


This isn't exactly rocket surgery. You had parents right? There.

-ol' 2long


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

Organized religion is the greatest mind fvck ever perpetrated on humankind. Period.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

BradWesley said:


> Organized religion is the greatest mind fvck ever perpetrated on humankind. Period.


AMEN brother! lol

:rofl:


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> That's baloney.
> 
> There are many great non-religious books out there to help someone resolve marital problems, including infidelity.
> 
> ...


And I said at the end of what you quoted that atheists can find these things, but they have to find alternatives to the things people in church might have. How is that baloney? It seems to be the same thing you said. I'm not saying people who aren't religious can't cope. I'm not saying people who are atheists are empty inside. I am one of you. And yes, presumably my parents had sex.

I feel like people who seem to agree with me are trying to find things to call BS on, but whatever, we're all equals here. I don't know a damn thing in the grand scheme of things, and neither does anyone else here.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Cabsy said:


> And I said at the end of what you quoted that atheists can find these things, but they have to find alternatives to the things people in church might have. How is that baloney? It seems to be the same thing you said. I'm not saying people who aren't religious can't cope. I'm not saying people who are atheists are empty inside. I am one of you. And yes, presumably my parents had sex.
> 
> I feel like people who seem to agree with me are trying to find things to call BS on, but whatever, we're all equals here. I don't know a damn thing in the grand scheme of things, and neither does anyone else here.


Atheists don't "have to" find alternatives... they _choose _alternatives.

You make it sound like they are condemned second class citizens or something.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Allen_A said:


> Atheists don't "have to" find alternatives... they _choose _alternatives.
> 
> You make it sound like they are condemned second class citizens or something.


:iagree:

It's as if they think their beliefs are the gold and everyone else has to just muddle through for substitutes.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Atheists don't "have to" find alternatives... they _choose _alternatives.
> 
> You make it sound like they are condemned second class citizens or something.


Again, finding a way to take offense to what I said. FFS, I'm just empathizing with Pam's point of view in the OP, as a former Christian who went through a lonely conversion as a child, as someone who was betrayed by the love of their life, as someone who has seen his family broken apart, and then both of his younger siblings fall terribly ill. It was not easy going through these things and being unable to call upon God, or pray with my family, etc. Besides that, yes, I do think we are sometimes treated like 2nd class citizens. How (openly) represented are we in government, for instance? But I do not, as you seem to think, believe we are handicapped in some way.

You make me sound like I'm some self-hating agnostic. I don't know how to make it more fluffy and godless for you... not that I care to try, but this is like 3 times now you've called me out in this thread. I'm very comfortable with where I am, thanks.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

How on earth does the government treat atheists like second class citizens?

Sorry, maybe I am uninformed, but I don't know of any laws discriminating atheism around here.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> How on earth does the government treat atheists like second class citizens?
> 
> Sorry, maybe I am uninformed, but I don't know of any laws discriminating atheism around here.


Don't you have to swear on the bible or something before you take office? Not American so not sure if that is true.

If it is true isn't that a form of discrimination?

I'm sure there'd be an uproar if people had to place their hand on a Christopher Hitchens book and swear an oath to atheism.

Damn, why can't people just get along.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> How on earth does the government treat atheists like second class citizens?
> 
> Sorry, maybe I am uninformed, but I don't know of any laws discriminating atheism around here.


Lol, so you're still going? Fine... representation was one example, but fine.

I don't think a person without faith could run openly for any major office in my state, even if they would be a great candidate for the job. You could not have an atheist president at this time for the very same reason. We almost elected a Mormon before we thought to seriously consider an atheist. Up to a certain point, and still today really, even other denominations of Christians were discriminated against. You don't need laws to do it. It was a ground-breaking thing when Kennedy won, partly because he was Catholic, and results showed a large portion of people voted against him because of his different religious beliefs.

Many Americans are scared of atheists, or at least, they certainly don't understand them. I know 3/10 people still believe in a literal translation of the Bible... so how many people are atheist? I don't care to look it up, but I can tell you who is in the majority. Legal and social discrimination are real things, and that's not to mention all of the ways religion has entrenched itself into our culture and has refused to allow room for other points of view.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

OK, so second class citizen is a gross exaggeration.

Are atheists in the minority?

Yes.

Are minorities going to struggle relative to being a member of the majority?

Yes.

Being a minority does not make you a second class citizen.

Atheists can still run for president if they want to. You aren't likely to WIN, no, but you CAN RUN. If you can run for office, you aren't a second class citizen, sorry.

Second class citizens are people who don't even get to vote for example. Women were second class citizens until they got the right to vote. Poor people used to not even get a vote in many countries. THOSE are second class citizens.

Atheists aren't discriminated against. They just are in the minority. That does mean there's going to be a struggle.

But many people struggle as a minority in their life space.

Sometimes you are one of only a few black people in your workplace. Or sometimes a female is the only female lawyer in their law office. That's a struggle. But that does not make you a second class citizen, sorry.

There are people who are overweight, short, bald, seniors, etc.. they all struggle too.. probably a LOT more than atheists struggle due to being atheists.

And I bet a lot of those Christians who "discriminate" against the atheists out there are female... maybe as many as men. That means the females who do the discriminating have to deal with discrimination of their own as well. Being a woman is a struggle of it's own too.

I imagine there are a good number of atheists out there who are white males with good paying jobs too.

Life is a struggle for many people, for many reasons.

Sorry, that does not make atheists second class citizens.

Just because a religion is in the majority it does not follow that everyone who isnt' religious is a second class citizen. How marginalized are atheists in the USA really?

Not much compared to other groups, particularly in other countries.

And I would further argue atheism is a CHOICE. It's not like being BLACK and getting marginalized now IS IT?

Hardly.

If you choose to be atheist you can keep that to yourself. If you choose to be atheist you can choose to STOP at any point and life gets easier for you.

Sorry, I don't feel a lot of sympathy for the marginalized atheists in America. Nope.

Do they have to struggle relative to Christians? Sure, in many ways they may.

That does not mean Christians don't. Are you trying to tell me that a female Black Christian struggles less than a white male atheist has to struggle?

Hardly.

The struggles for atheists are there no doubt, but let's not dramatize it into the next Hollywood blockbuster either.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

> That does not mean Christians don't. Are you trying to tell me that a female Black Christian struggles less than a white male atheist has to struggle?


Uh, no. You're putting words into my mouth. Again. You're reading more into my posts than you should, and you seem to be going out of your way to avoid understanding the points I am making. I never compared us to women, or African Americans, nor did I equate my suffering with an African American woman... Christian or no. You did that. There are different levels of discrimination. Religious discrimination may take a different form, and it's not always as identifiable as sex or race; but it exists, and you even acknowledged it yourself, so why set up a Cabsy strawman?

I tried to use Catholics, as another religious group who saw discrimination at the hands of the white male protestant majority, to draw a closer comparison. Since you brought them up, women are also a great example of discrimination, while not drawing direct comparisons between levels of suffering between other groups because I don't care to get into all of that. Women are not well represented in government, paid less for equal work, and still struggling to shake off old cultural views of how women should behave (much of which came from religion). There are more women than men in the electorate, yet they are still fighting for equality in many aspects of life.

African Americans? Another great example along the lines of this discussion. They had the right to vote before they gained equal rights, and they still face discrimination and social hurdles to this day. I don't know why, but I feel the need to tell you, specifically, that I feel they face more discrimination than atheists in today's society. Just so we're clear. The point here is: Being able to vote (or run for office yourself) doesn't magically make things better, especially if you're in the minority, the system has been built against you, and the system doesn't want to change.

As I've said before... it probably depends on where you live as well, and my perspective comes from living in a place where corn, churches, and REPENT OR BURN IN HELL signs are abundant. Other ideas are not welcomed in that kind of marketplace: Gays, Muslims, atheists... doesn't matter much.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Who's struggling? 

Holy crap, people. I didn't read his statement to be LITERAL. More like, 2nd class citizens where religion/or lack there of was concerned.

All this other stuff is just stuff. 

Do I suffer? Sure. Is it because I'm atheist or without belief in Christianity? No.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

Honestly most atheists just don't say they're atheists because immediately everyone thinks you're a baby-eating monster. BUT in my experience the atheists in my life are the people at the soup kitchen hanging out with the homeless and buying them shoes.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

You don't eat babies?

You're not a REAL atheist then.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

I knew I was doing it wrong.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, now you can start doing it right.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

Hahahahahahaha!


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## Thinkitthrough (Sep 5, 2012)

If I have missed something and I am repeating please ignore me (my wife does). Both Religion and Science serve to answer the questions that as humans we need answered. The conflict, I think, is that both systems are trying to explain the same things and to have authority they must be right.
This world of ours is full of great unknowns but it is our nature to want to know what it is. Religion says that the great unknowns belong to God and so long as He She knows the answers we don't need to. We must show faith. Science on the other had provides us with tools to explore our world and find our own inexact answers.
We have two diametrically opposite answers for the same things neither of which can be concretely proved. The solution of course is an inquisition and executing as many people as we can.
By the way, how do you get a bunch of Americans twisted into a knot? You start a conversation about God. (can't help it, I'm Canadian)


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Thinkitthrough said:


> If I have missed something and I am repeating please ignore me (my wife does). Both Religion and Science serve to answer the questions that as humans we need answered. The conflict, I think, is that both systems are trying to explain the same things and to have authority they must be right....


Disagree to a point. Most 'science' types are fine with the idea of 'we don't know that answer yet.' Hence why they study, make hypothesis, etc. and try to make a case. It lacks that 'absolute' and can be rebutted or refuted as new information and studies are made. 

A lot of religious folks are the ones that say "because God made it like that" as if that should be the only answer you need. Some even go so far as saying your 'probable' or even proven scientific data is wrong 'because this book' tells me so. 

Plenty of us out there believe the bible is someone else's hypothesis based on the information they had at the time of it's writing as well as some 'embellishment' to make some point clear. Pork and shellfish can make you sick; lets put that in there and give our own 'why' God might choose to punish you for eating those things. That was their answer for it... push the fear. 

Got to give you the same tip of the hat in that science often operates the same way, but doesn't do it so much on the philosophical as much as 'bending' the data to support why it's bad. Here's the "facts" about gluton or MSD or rock and roll or violent games or _____. So with this overwhelming and confusing "fact game", in some ways, it'd be wonderful to just have a fallback of "because of God; he works in mysterious ways". It's a struggle us atheist have because the 'data' says 'if I do this, then statistically that might happen based on certain studies...'; Second guessing occurs whereas a person of religion might find 'faith' in some better outcome occurring. It's an area where I envy the 'believers'. They don't feel compelled to research it, live in that confusion of different findings and studies, etc.


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## Thinkitthrough (Sep 5, 2012)

No Disagreement Racer, I just missed that point. You are correct, knowing that some things can't be known right now keeps them working.
As to the original post idea. I think that the religious might turn to God in their pain, and us Atheists, we have NLP or some other theory of changing thoughts. I guess everybody suffers.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Scientist don't ask teleological questions. We don't ask "why is grass green?" Rather it so more important to ask "what causes grass to be green? Scientist only ask questions that they can test through verifiable experimentation. So we do look for answers to all our questions, we just ask our questions differently than theologians.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

drerio said:


> Scientist don't ask teleological questions. We don't ask "why is grass green?" Rather it so more important to ask "what causes grass to be green? Scientist only ask questions that they can test through verifiable experimentation. So we do look for answers to all our questions, we just ask our questions differently than theologians.


There is often more than one answer too. Or more often a sequence of answers that make up a complete answer.

For instance you could say that chlorophyll causes grass to be green, but the most immediate answer is because grass reflects a lot of light with a wavelength in the 'green' part of the spectrum.
Each answer begets another question.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

But I would never say the grass is green because that's what god wanted.

Nor would I say that the world was populated by 2 people. That in itself begs a lot of questions. Incest being one of them.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

that_girl said:


> But I would never say the grass is green because that's what god wanted.
> 
> Nor would I say that the world was populated by 2 people. *That in itself begs a lot of questions. Incest being one of them*.



However the the principle precepts for speciation is a founder population, that is a small isolated genetic pool under geological pressures for survival of the fitter among anyone of the non-diluted random mutations that occur


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

I agree with your points Racer, and I liked Thinkitthrough's perspective as well. We do have two diametrically opposed points of view, so I guess that's why I wish we could deal with the world in front of us, live and let live when our lives are not directly affected by others' choices, and seek to find common ground... regardless of who is in the majority. It beats discord and discrimination. Good Christians love others, seek to understand them, and forgive them for their trespasses; and I think good atheists do the same thing.

Adam and Eve got us rolling of course... but then Noah and his sons/family repopulated after the great flood, Abraham and Sara were half-siblings and founded a tribe, Lot and his daughters also founded a tribe after the destruction of Sodom/Gomorrah, etc. Incest is a pretty big thing in the Bible. I know Islam has edited incest out of certain shared stories, but the Bible makes it pretty clear who is begetting who and how. It just goes to show you that there are different versions of the "truth" out there, which is to be expected when dealing with thousand-year-old stories.


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## Thinkitthrough (Sep 5, 2012)

Cabsy, now there is another spanner in the works. Those things that the Bible explains as the works of God will have natural explanations. There are to my understanding references to Jesus Christ's existence and execution but little else. The characters in the crucifixion story have historical reality and crucifixion was a method of dealing with problems used by the Romans. But the "science" that can prove their existence denies their divinity.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

So I'm on Facebook right now...After my wifes affair I facebook'ed the OMs wife. I was looking something up and her name popped up, I guess from user history.

I never told his wife about the affair because that was the best way to keep him out of my life...but thats another story....Anyways, on her profile page is a pic of her, their infant son, and the POS. Now keep in mind, the POS cheated on her while she was pregnant. 

Well, his tshirt he is wearing proves my point about most religious people being hypocrites. His shirt proudly proclaims "Worship Jesus!" I just about spit my drink out all over my monitor.

Religion? No thank you.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

hawx20 said:


> So I'm on Facebook right now...After my wifes affair I facebook'ed the OMs wife. I was looking something up and her name popped up, I guess from user history.
> 
> I never told his wife about the affair because that was the best way to keep him out of my life...but thats another story....Anyways, on her profile page is a pic of her, their infant son, and the POS. Now keep in mind, the POS cheated on her while she was pregnant.
> 
> ...


At the end of the day you've gotta do what you feel is right for you and your family but, having seen that... Well, I'd think that any and all doubts, reservations, second thoughts, etc that you may have once had w/ respect to exposure would've been completely obliterated.

Just saying.


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