# Some compassion for waywards



## jld

I think it's time for some compassion for waywards. 

Honestly, I do not even like the term wayward. Maybe the "wayward" felt betrayed in some way, too.

I just think humans are weak, and probably in desperate need of compassion and understanding. 

And, yes, some firm boundaries and definite consequences.

But do they have to wear the scarlet letter forever?


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## Cosmos

I'm a great believer in compassion, understanding and forgiveness, JLD, but I think it's pretty hard for a BS to feel those things when they're still in so much pain...

Given the nature of this forum, I don't think there will be a lot of positive responses to this thread.


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## Coffee Amore

I hope you have a flame proof suit, jld.


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## Cletus

jld said:


> I think it's time for some compassion for waywards.
> 
> ...
> 
> But do they have to wear the scarlet letter forever?


Only if you believe that people cannot learn from their mistakes and better themselves.


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## Sandfly

"compassion" but... not at the time.

Much later, yeah.

They often go on to screw things up, ending up in situations and relationships they didn't want.

I saw an old girlfriend a couple of years ago. Married to an old fart, kids she probably didn't really want, and getting old. She'd cut her hair short and had a scowl on her face.

I avoided bumping into her, but I felt sorry for her. And amused at the same time.


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## Theseus

jld said:


> I think it's time for some compassion for waywards.
> 
> Honestly, I do not even like the term wayward. Maybe the "wayward" felt betrayed in some way, too.


I think each case should be looked at on it's own merits. For example, there's a big difference between a wayward newlywed spouse vs. one who has been in a sexless marriage for many years. 



> _I just think humans are weak, and probably in desperate need of compassion and understanding. _


It does bug me sometimes that some of the members here act so "holy" about this issue, as if they have never sinned before in their lives. But most people on TAM are not like that.


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## LaQueso

I don't have time for compassion, my compassion was abused by my wayward and I am so busy cleaning up his messes and will be cleaning up his messes forever because we have kids. He used my compassion to cheat on our family, he is using my compassion to keep me trapped in a state far from the physical help our families and friends can give. He took advantage of my compassion when months after he abandoned us, he had a stroke and I had to fill out th hospital papers with his mistress demanding access in the hallway and him saying we could take turns visiting. 
He has none for me. He hasn't lifted a finger to help me or our children without being forced or shamed to.He has placed his mistress in place of me as our children's mother.
He should wear a scarlet letter til judgement day and beyond.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

You are entitled to your opinion. It's hard (at the time) to feel anything, let alone compassion, for some who ripped your heart out and sh*t on everything you held dear. 

I'll work on forgiveness 1st. I'm sure compassion will follow.


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## jld

I am so sorry, LaQueso. 

I guess I was thinking more about wayward wives. I am sure I will get flames for that, too. But I think someone needed to speak up for compassion. 

And maybe, like Sandfly said, it comes later, much later. But perhaps it comes eventually.


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## LaQueso

Thank you, jld. 
I don't spit nails when I see him and I am not teaching the kids to hate him. 
I feel sorry for him most of the time. I still think the big A belongs on him forever though because it would take a miracle for him to show that he doesn't need to wear it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar

Theseus said:


> I think each case should be looked at on it's own merits. For example, there's a big difference between a wayward newlywed spouse vs. one who has been in a sexless marriage for many years.
> 
> 
> 
> It does bug me sometimes that some of the members here act so "holy" about this issue,* as if they have never sinned before in their lives*. But most people on TAM are not like that.


I understand your point here, but I have always had an issue with this arguement. If I get pulled over for speeding, the fact that everyone else was speeding does not chage the fact that I was breaking the law. Likewise, just because someone else has done bad things in their marriage does not negate the fact that the person they were calling out on bad behavior was behaving badly.


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## samyeagar

jld said:


> I am so sorry, LaQueso.
> 
> *I guess I was thinking more about wayward wives*. I am sure I will get flames for that, too. But I think someone needed to speak up for compassion.
> 
> And maybe, like Sandfly said, it comes later, much later. But perhaps it comes eventually.


Not on this site, but in the broader society, wayward women get plenty of compassion, and get off far easier in that regard than men do. The real world knee jerk reaction to a woman cheating is what did her husband do or not do to make her do it.


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## calvin

Depends on the WS,lenght of the A,how deep the A was.
What is the WS doing to fix everything they can,true remorse and all that other
stuff.
Yeah it takes awhile for the BS to recover but at some point its time to forgive,show compassion
and get back into the marriage and work with your spouse and let it go.
They need to prove themselves but not over and over for years to come.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

I have compassion on those who *stand* when they are beat down in the marriage, where their needs go un addressed, pushed aside...yet they reach out and DO all they can possibly do to remedy the situation and bring their partner back... A person can only stand so long before they are broken & depressed...

I have compassion on the higher drive spouses who don't feel desired by those who vowed to love & cherish them... this would suck the living life out of me.. Anything remotely close to sexlessness = a betrayal of vows to me.. I can not see it any other way. 

I have compassion on those who feel they love MORE...maybe they married someone who never got completely over a lost love.. they know this... but try to over look it or love in spite of it.. don't think I could do it personally. 

I have compassion on those who are living with alcoholics, drug abusers, emotional abuse, porn addicts who ignore their wives....and every manner of addiction that can destroy the happiness in a marriage...when the neglected spouse finds themselves weak and drowning...I try not to judge too harshly...

I have compassion on anyone who gets depressed living with some of these scenarios trying to keep a broken marriage alive...one can not do it alone.... It's more honorable to divorce ...keep your integrity if at all possible... Just file the papers when all hope is lost... 

I *don't* have compassion on people with no shame, narcissists who abuse others and feel nothing when they hurt, neglect, abuse and or cheat... Shame should be part of that deal or something is sourly missing from their character.


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## anchorwatch

Yep, exactly what SA said!


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## Rugs

None from me. It's an extremely cowardly and offensive act and not worthy of compassion.

I felt this way long before I became a BS. If there were no such thing as divorce or honesty, I would understand. Sorry, not buying into any of it.


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## Hope1964

Have you been a BS?


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## Thor

Its not easy to concoct a scenario where the wayward wouldn't have plenty of other valid options. There may be a rare case where other factors come to play, but in the vast majority of cases the wayward could choose something other than cheat.


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## norajane

Hope1964 said:


> Have you been a BS?


Jld, I have to ask the same question.

And if not, imagine that you were. Imagine your H having a whole other life with another woman during those 3 weeks he spends working in another country every month. Imagine thinking that your H is working so hard to support your family of 7, when really he's spending lots of quality time with his foreign mistress. Imagine you worrying about him when he's away and whether he's taking care to eat right, all while another woman is going out to fun restaurants with him as often as he can take her. Imagine having problems with the kids at home and feeling overwhelmed, while he's giving his mistress a massage.

Imagine starting to wonder why he's often distracted during the days he spends at home, or always on his computer instead of in a bubble bath with you. Imagine wondering who he's always communicating with on his cell phone and being told it's just work he has to take care of. Imagine feeling the urge to check his phone, but he never leaves it unattended, until one day... 

Then imagine finding out he has a mistress that he's kept, or multiple mistresses over time, that he sends flirty texts to and tells he can't wait until he gets back to see her again. How much compassion could you muster for him at that point?


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## jld

I think you're right, norajane. I haven't lived it, and so how can I know? It's easy to be compassionate when you are not the injured party.

And I am sure the trust is destroyed. And that's why I started a thread in CWI recently about Automatic Divorce for Infidelity. Even if you decide to reconcile, it is probably best to do it with a clean slate for both people. Have you seen all the groveling the WS seems to have to do? Is that really healthy after a certain point? They can't erase the mistake. They can't make it all better.

I would think that at some point, there has to be forgiveness, and compassion, whether the couple stays together or divorces. If nothing else, for the BS to be able to heal themselves and not remain just filled with bitterness for the rest of their lives.

But the bottom line is that you're right; I have not lived it.


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## Caribbean Man

I don't think that a wayward spouse's " groveling " is even comparable to the trauma a betrayed person , the family and the family of the affair partner goes through.
Marriage is a construct based on trust.
It is not based on love, we seem to forget that love cannot exist without trust.
People alter their lives and make sacrifices with the hope of reaping the rewards marriage is supposed to give. When fidelity is broken ,the sacrifices and efforts made add up to nought.
Money and finance is a similar construct in principle , based on fidelity.
There is no intrinsic value to the paper used as legal tender, but the value we all agree to place on it. We all agree that in order for it to have value it must come from one authorized source, the government. Any other source of 
" money" is considered counterfeit and of no value.
Counterfeit money undermines the fidelity aspect of the monetary construct, hence it removes the value or trust we agreed to place on real money.

Marriage of itself has no intrinsic value except what we agree on and place to it. This value is insured and guaranteed by fidelity. Remove fidelity and trust is gone , the marriage is worthless.
It's kinda difficult to imagine something you spent a significant part of your physical life building , is worthless because of someone else's infidelity.
The only wayward spouse worth having compassion for is a remorseful wayward spouse.
Cake eaters are ruthlessly selfish to the core of their being and well deserving of the scarlet letter as a warning to other innocent people who actually believe in fidelity.


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## Mistyfied

As a wife who can understand the vulnerability to temptation due to an emotionally unavailable husband, I don't really have too much sympathy towards waywards. The marriage situation might be bad but the honest thing is to leave before you take up with someone else. It's a choice to cheat. 

I do believe that sometimes people can learn from their mistakes and change. I'm not sure it's something I could forgive in my husband or in myself if I chose that course. I think it would be a deal breaker for me and I'd live with shame if I did it.


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## jld

Okay. Should we just stone them then?

Only slightly sarcastic here. Can you see why this is done in some countries? There all the feelings we see on this thread are encoded in law.

In my original post, i did mention boundaries and consequences. I am not clueless about the importance of these things. But perhaps naively I still think that for true healing, some compassion and understanding are going to be necessary.


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## jld

Caribbean Man said:


> I don't think that a wayward spouse's " groveling " is even comparable to the trauma a betrayed person , the family and the family of the affair partner goes through.
> Marriage is a construct based on trust.
> It is not based on love, we seem to forget that love cannot exist without trust.
> People alter their lives and make sacrifices with the hope of reaping the rewards marriage is supposed to give. When fidelity is broken ,the sacrifices and efforts made add up to nought.
> Money and finance is a similar construct in principle , based on fidelity.
> There is no intrinsic value to the paper used as legal tender, but the value we all agree to place on it. We all agree that in order for it to have value it must come from one authorized source, the government. Any other source of
> " money" is considered counterfeit and of no value.
> Counterfeit money undermines the fidelity aspect of the monetary construct, hence it removes the value or trust we agreed to place on real money.
> 
> Marriage of itself has no intrinsic value except what we agree on and place to it. This value is insured and guaranteed by fidelity. Remove fidelity and trust is gone , the marriage is worthless.
> It's kinda difficult to imagine something you spent a significant part of your physical life building , is worthless because of someone else's infidelity.
> The only wayward spouse worth having compassion for is a remorseful wayward spouse.
> Cake eaters are ruthlessly selfish to the core of their being and well deserving of the scarlet letter as a warning to other innocent people who actually believe in fidelity.


Yes. This is all very good.

Dh once commented, "Why throwing away in seconds what people have taken a lifetime to build?"

But when I read some stories on here, I think it is clear that not everyone has lived a perfectly clean life. And I think there must be a path to restoration, not only for the "wayward," but for the betrayed, too.

I did not realize I was living among such puritans. And, good grief, I am not justifying cheating. But there must be a path to the other side. Or we might as well just consider the stoning option above.


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## Sun Catcher

I don't feel that I wear any scarlet letter even though I had an EA the last week of my marriage. 

Was married to a cheater for 20 years and caught him numerous times. Too bad I had no idea TAM even existed at the time. I was so damaged by the multiple affairs, one of which we were friends with the couple. I was emotionally abused to the point he convinced me I was just the jealous type and the OW was just trying to be my friend. I almost came to believe that myself. 

GF's of mine (who knew my home life) suggested I just check out and do the same thing, that I would feel better about it and I started an EA with my boss. He was all for it, very understanding and I quickly realized where that was going to lead. I didn't feel better about myself, felt very dirty and sick to my stomach. I told my WH about it and filed for divorce that same week. I couldn't live with myself and felt I had really shamed myself and gone against the very fiber of who I am. I was more mad at myself than even WH was. I also requested a transfer to a different boss which took a few weeks. He disgusted me too, as I saw it as just another man taking advantage of me, even though I was fully aware and let myself be taken advantage of. 

I jumped from being married to a quick "relationship" with another man who could smell I was insecure and damaged goods from a mile away. That lasted a few years. I was a broken woman. The ex had done a number on me and I was not whole. I was hurt, unsure and had very low self-esteem.

When that inevitably broke up I stayed away from men for over 5 years. Travelled with GF's, read a lot and just spoiled and pampered myself and the kids and threw myself into my job and had quite an exciting career from then on. I had given up and thought single life suited me just fine. I needed that time to heal myself and understand what it was I really needed to be looking for in a mate.

Then I met the love of my life. I started dating a bit again, knowing that what I had in the past was not love, just sick relationships but I was a changed woman and I knew that I knew how to love and just had to find the "right one", don't settle for less. Go outside of the box of what I thought I liked and what was attractive. Well, I did.

He knows my whole story, he knows I had an EA, but he also knows I would never ever go that route again. Is not who I am and he also knows I am no longer damaged goods. I am a strong, passionate and faithful woman. He has made it his mission to make up to me for all the past emotional abuse I went through. He spoils me something terrible. 

So, there ya go, rather long but the reason I am NOT wearing a Scarlet Letter, even if some here think I perhaps should.


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## jld

What a beautiful, beautiful story, SC, of restoration. Thank you so much for sharing it here. You are very brave.


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## calvin

I think forgiveness and compassion for the WS to receive comes after time
and hard work by the WS.
I'm almost two years out and getting there in our R.
I guess I was one of the "luck" BS's,my wife four month A didn't go physical but
she did meet up with her old twice convicted hs bf four times in a public place during
the day.
She did give him three pecks on the lips and run because she was scared she might be seen.
The " I loves yous " in text and phone calls still tear me up though.
I feel my WW is one of the few who have finally earned compassion,its not easy
To give though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

norajane said:


> . *Imagine your H having a whole other life with another woman during those 3 weeks he spends working in another country every month*. Imagine thinking that your H is working so hard to support your family of 7, *when really he's spending lots of quality time with his foreign mistress*.


I know of a couple where he worked in another country 2-3 weeks every month or so ....... he did have a mistress... I think she had someone on the side too when he was gone, eventually they divorced...(but not over this, it was something else).... 

I would not be surprised though if his ex wife knew about this.. or they had some deal where they just didn't talk about it ...kept it discreet.... These people are very rich.. I think him & his new wife (that mistress for many years) are perfect for each other... both workaholics!...

What is a BS ?? I hate abbreviations. 



> *jld said:* *Okay. Should we just stone them then?*


A couple of our closest friends... her husband stepped out on her with a friend... who was there to help her through that.. Me... her church excommunicated him (Mormons) and pushed for her to divorce.... I did NOT.. she didn't want to divorce, they had 4 kids.. she was in a lot of pain....she was refusing him sex before this happened...... she had to have the whole damn house spotless to be with her husband... he got weak... I am not making excuses for him.. but this situation didn't have to happen...she was wrong too...

They have sat in our living room, and talked openly about this to me & my husband, this man says he will never be able to look at himself in the mirror again the same way....for what he did to his wife...very remorseful, almost to the point of tears talking about it (Our friends are very open with us!)...he is very vocal against cheating... I mean he has more anger over it -than someone like me... because he has felt the pain of what he DID... 

I KNOW THIS FAMILY DID THE RIGHT THING.. to forgive.. they still have some struggles...this is a family with 2 autistic children...he has some aspergers himself I guess... 

My Father cheated on my Mother.. In my opinion, My Mother was more of the problem ...I will always see my father as a GOOD MAN......if he only married the right woman, he wouldn't have had any infidelities at all... 

I remember the fights, it was so ridiculous, my Grandmother was telling my Mom you can't marry a man & not give him sex (she was not in love with him..and yes she told me all of this)......crazy as it may sound, there was no lies... he told her what was going on, she even told him *to go to her*...she didn't care.... they divorced, he married her best friend within a week... faithful & true the last 37 yrs.... Why did my Mother marry someone she didn't love.

I seen my Father more of the victim in that situation...call me screwed up, that's fine. 

So I can't see everything black & white.


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## jld

It takes courage to be open like that, SA. Thanks.

I am not sure any of us knows what we would do if we found out our partner was cheating. I can imagine all kinds of scenarios.

I would hope, though, at the end of the day, that I would be grateful for all the happy years with him, and how much he had enriched my life, including giving me my children.

Can't really imagine my life without dh. But he could die, too, and then I would have to move on, alone.

And, for sure, life is many shades of grey.


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## survivorwife

jld said:


> Okay. Should we just stone them then?
> 
> Only slightly sarcastic here. Can you see why this is done in some countries? There all the feelings we see on this thread are encoded in law.
> 
> In my original post, i did mention boundaries and consequences. I am not clueless about the importance of these things. *But perhaps naively I still think that for true healing, some compassion and understanding are going to be necessary*.


Without true remorse, there can be no compassion.

Sometimes it takes awhile, sometimes it never happens. But, unless and until the wayward actually understands the nature of the damage they caused to the marriage and their spouse, compassion just becomes a way of rug sweeping.

What you will read in these threads sometimes is a wayward who simply does not understand or comprehend the nature of the damage caused. "I cheated....BUT my betrayed spouse did (whatever) which made me cheat". No remorse there. Only blame shifting. And, as hard as some people challenge that sort of thinking, it often appears that they lack "compassion". Compassion really isn't the issue. It's about challenging the wayward to come to terms with the damage done in order for them to finally see the damage and feel true remorse. Only then can compassion enter into the picture. Not before.


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## jld

I agree with you, sw. I would think that nothing less than complete remorse, total shame and absolute transparency would work. And a certain amount of groveling, for a certain amount of time.

And if all that is not enough, a divorce, with a clean slate for each, might be the answer.

But if what is mentioned in the first paragraph is indeed enough, I would hope then that the BS could consider compassion and understanding.

And yes, the choice to have the affair remains 100% on the cheater. They may both be responsible for the conditions that made cheating appealing, but the cheater pulled the trigger.


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## ScarletBegonias

I was w/someone who was a chronic cheater and did it bc he constantly wanted some strange.He wanted the thrill.No woman was going to tell him what he could and couldn't do w/his d**k. I have zero compassion or forgiveness for a person like that.

There was a relationship I had where I neglected the person's emotional and physical needs.That person stepped out. I hated myself to pushing them so far from me that they needed to do something like that. I couldn't forgive them but I felt compassion for them. 

Some situations warrant your forgiveness and compassion.Some don't.It's not up for the general outsider to decide who should get it or shouldn't get it.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I appreciate this post. I have often read through CWI and it seems the only people who post there are people who were in good relationships and a good spouse when their wayward had an A out of the blue with no warning. Not that I am saying that a bad spouse deserves to get cheated on but there are situations that can make someone more susceptible to make the choice to have an A.

Although it's certainly not popular here, things got a lot better for us when we both stopped blaming and just admitted our own faults in how bad the situation got. He did admit that he had fault in me having an EA and had compassion- having the A was 100% my fault, the breakdown of the relationship is on both of us. There are parts of the breakdown that are 100% his fault too. 
Is an A the trump card- as in it doesn't matter what else has happened, if you have an A you are the worst one? Is withholding sex and ENs to the point where it is emotionally abusive as bad as an A? 

Me only fixing myself so I'd never have another A wouldn't have saved our relationship. Treating me like crap and a wh0re while he pretended to be a perfect angel wouldn't have helped either. Compassion and understanding did help.


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## Deejo

Compassion? Hell I'd settle for common courtesy.


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## Rowan

I do have compassion for my serial cheater ex-husband. There's just something within him that is wired differently. He's someone who could love me deeply, but still cheat because he wanted to, for thrills, for the ego stroke, for the fun of it. He honestly does not perceive any sort of dissonance in those two positions. And yet, I've never hated him. Anger, rage, resentment, hurt, repulsion? Yes. But now I can feel mostly compassion for him. 

That doesn't mean I excuse his actions. It doesn't mean I stick around for more of the same, or give him another chance. But I can see what he is, who he is, clearly. There's no changing it, there's no fixing it, there's no making it different than how it is. There is acceptance and a decision to step away from it. And compassion for someone who doesn't understand, perhaps cannot understand, that the differences in our perceptions of what love should be render us wholly incompatible.


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## Cletus

SimplyAmorous said:


> So I can't see everything black & white.


No one with any true humanity and perception in them can, because things very rarely really ARE just black and white.


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## CallaLily

For me, I don't feel compassion for waywards, but more along the lines of pity. If they are truly that unhappy they are welcome to leave.


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## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Is an A the trump card- as in it doesn't matter what else has happened, if you have an A you are the worst one?


I get this impression, too.


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## jld

CallaLily said:


> For me, I don't feel compassion for waywards, but more along the lines of pity. If they are truly that unhappy they are welcome to leave.


And really, it might be for the best, for both of them.


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## jld

Rowan said:


> I do have compassion for my serial cheater ex-husband. There's just something within him that is wired differently. He's someone who could love me deeply, but still cheat because he wanted to, for thrills, for the ego stroke, for the fun of it. He honestly does not perceive any sort of dissonance in those two positions. And yet, I've never hated him. Anger, rage, resentment, hurt, repulsion? Yes. But now I can feel mostly compassion for him.
> 
> That doesn't mean I excuse his actions. It doesn't mean I stick around for more of the same, or give him another chance. But I can see what he is, who he is, clearly. There's no changing it, there's no fixing it, there's no making it different than how it is. There is acceptance and a decision to step away from it. And compassion for someone who doesn't understand, perhaps cannot understand, that the differences in our perceptions of what love should be render us wholly incompatible.


Wow. You are a better person than I am, Rowan. I had in mind a single time, with lots of remorse and shame and transparency. If you can forgive and extend compassion to a serial cheater, hats off. 

Have you found that it has helped you heal?


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## turnera

jld said:


> But do they have to wear the scarlet letter forever?


It depends. What did they do to make up for the harm they caused?


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## jld

Deejo said:


> Compassion? Hell I'd settle for common courtesy.


Is your story on here, Deejo?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

turnera said:


> It depends. What did they do to make up for the harm they caused?


Are you talking about a punishment? What kinds of things would you want a WS to do to make up for it? Would the BS also have to make up for their own actions that caused harm if they did any?


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## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Are you talking about a punishment? What kinds of things would you want a WS to do to make up for it? Would the BS also have to make up for their own actions that caused harm if they did any?


Is it really just one, turnera? 

Okay, maybe in the case of a serial philanderer, or a person with mental illness, yes. But more people than these are having affairs. 

If my dh had an affair, you bet I'd be asking myself why, and what I could have done differently, and how to avoid it in the future. 

And I think if we could move past it at all, it would have to be with the understanding that we both contributed something to the situation, even if it was he that "pulled the trigger."


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## hawx20

I would have compassion if the WS were like me. I did all I could in my marriage to make my wife happy. I was denied sex, didnt get the affection I wanted, but I stuck it out trying to improve myself. If there were a person like this, who decided to cheat, well I dont blame them. Its not a route I would go, but I can understand why.

Now, people like my wife who cheated, I have no compassion for. She cheated because she was bored and wanted to be young and free again. She had it all, but risked it all for her own selfish needs.


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## jld

hawx20 said:


> I would have compassion if the WS were like me. I did all I could in my marriage to make my wife happy. I was denied sex, didnt get the affection I wanted, but I stuck it out trying to improve myself. If there were a person like this, who decided to cheat, well I dont blame them. Its not a route I would go, but I can understand why.
> 
> Now, people like my wife who cheated, I have no compassion for. She cheated because she was bored and wanted to be young and free again. She had it all, but risked it all for her own selfish needs.


It probably just wasn't a good match then, don't you think? I am assuming you are divorced now. This way you can both move on and make a more compatible choice in the future.

This is new for me, feeling sorry for men, but I do think it is sad when they are living sexless lives. It is such a small thing a woman can do for a man, and it makes him so much more open to her needs.


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## hawx20

jld said:


> It probably just wasn't a good match then, don't you think? I am assuming you are divorced now. This way you can both move on and make a more compatible choice in the future.
> 
> This is new for me, feeling sorry for men, but I do think it is sad when they are living sexless lives. It is such a small thing a woman can do for a man, and it makes him so much more open to her needs.


Actually I stayed for 2 reasons. The first was for my 5 year old who wouldnt understand what was happening. I just cant rip her world apart like that. The second reason was for my wife. She turned into a totally different person when she had a MLC and had the affair during that time. For now at least, she is back to being the woman I fell in love with, married, and lived with for 6 years. 

As far as the sex thing, yeah, men would put up with a lot if they had sex on a regular basis. I know I am much happier, cope with things better, and just more care free if i get it on a regular basis.


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## jld

hawx20 said:


> Actually I stayed for 2 reasons. The first was for my 5 year old who wouldnt understand what was happening. I just cant rip her world apart like that. The second reason was for my wife. She turned into a totally different person when she had a MLC and had the affair during that time. For now at least, she is back to being the woman I fell in love with, married, and lived with for 6 years.
> 
> As far as the sex thing, yeah, men would put up with a lot if they had sex on a regular basis. I know I am much happier, cope with things better, and just more care free if i get it on a regular basis.


Sorry to have misunderstood. That is great that you worked things out. I am sure that took a lot of patience, and understanding, and commitment to working things out. And I bet your daughter will always be grateful to you.


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## jld

Okay, 2ntnuf, I get your point. You don't feel bad for a spouse until they are sorry for what they're done, right? Agreed.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

2ntnuf said:


> I feel bad for her that she will now have to find someone who has been through the same experience as her, an unfaithful spouse, because anyone who has been unfaithful, will be able to empathize more fully, and have a better chance at success with her, even if there is continued infidelity. At least they will have the kind of empathy for each other that their relationship needs to survive, long-term. They will be able to forgive each other, because they can understand that one can be pushed to infidelity, whether they want to or not.


I don't think that, in general, a WS has to end up with a WS for them to be understood and given empathy. But I take it you are talking about your/her specific situation though, maybe she does. 

You also say 
"I feel bad for her because she did not realise there are some things more important to life than sex, one being integrity, another empathy."

Of course there are more important things but if someone chooses to withhold sex it can cause just as much emotional damage. I just don't think a person who refuses to meet sexual needs (or other needs) is always that much more righteous/empathetic than one who has an A. 
Understanding both sides can go a long way.


----------



## Mortie

Imagine finding out about about being cheated on 22 years after it happened. And then finding out that your wife was having an EA on line for the last two and a half years and not really knowing for sure what else has happend between the two. At the moment, I am not in a compassionate kind of place. 

The proper thing to do would be divorce first and then go play. It seems to me that there are less and less people in the world who will do the right thing. Nothing excuses cheating to me. Just because a person is weak doesnt mean they cant do the right thing. Its a choice.


----------



## jld

Mortie said:


> Imagine finding out about about being cheated on 22 years after it happened. And then finding out that your wife was having an EA on line for the last two and a half years and not really knowing for sure what else has happend between the two. At the moment, I am not in a compassionate kind of place.
> 
> The proper thing to do would be divorce first and then go play. It seems to me that there are less and less people in the world who will do the right thing. Nothing excuses cheating to me. Just because a person is weak doesnt mean they cant do the right thing. Its a choice.


You know, I am sure it would feel like you didn't even know that person. You would feel lied to and just completely deceived. 

I am sure I would not feel compassionate, either. At least not for the foreseeable future.

And the more posts that come in, the more I am understanding why it takes so long to get to compassion, if people get there at all.


----------



## happy as a clam

Theseus said:


> ...there's a big difference between a wayward newlywed spouse vs. one who has been in a sexless marriage for many years.


Agree. 



> It does bug me sometimes that some of the members here act so "holy" about this issue, as if they have never sinned before in their lives. But most people on TAM are not like that.


"“Let him who is *without sin* among you be the first to cast a stone..."
~ John 8:7

Note, this verse does not specify *which type* of sin. While I certainly don't condone adultery, it is certainly no greater or no lesser than the other nine commandments. How many who are quick to throw the Scarlet A at someone haven't committed *any* of the other sins?

Just my 2 cents...


----------



## hawx20

jld said:


> And I bet your daughter will always be grateful to you.


Yeah once I had that little girl, the way I lived my life changed forever. 

The day I am buried, she will be standing up in front of everyone giving a eulogy about her father. All that matters to me is what she says at that moment about the man who was her father. I live my life to make her proud to have a father like me.

There is no woman alive that I would betray my family over. Its a shame she didnt feel the same. In her case, it wasnt so much the OM, she betrayed her family for herself. The OM was just the easiest and most available penis to get.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

2ntnuf said:


> I do think it is impossible to understand someone else. We can attempt it, but we have not lived their lives. All we can do is try to understand. Empathy is healthy when done properly. It can swing to codependent tendencies and a total lack of narcissist tendencies, which actually is unhealthy. We all need a little of each. We must be careful with the balance.
> 
> I can only talk from my perspective. I don't presume to know what others know.
> 
> Maybe she does what? I don't understand that part.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> You're right, that was not very clear. I meant that maybe she does need to be with someone who had been an unfaithful spouse in order to have someone who can empathize fully and have a better chance at success with her even though I don't think that is true in all WS situations. Since you know your own situation better than I do, you are probably right that she would need to. *
> 
> You obviously missed the point. She did have choices. One of which, was to leave, when she realised it wasn't working. No one forced her to stay. That was her choice. She had many choices. The path she chose, showed her lack of empathy and integrity. At the same time, it showed her narcissism and self-righteousness.


We all have choices, right and wrong, everyone makes mistakes. Basically what I am saying is I think many cases there are wrongs choices on both sides, how you decide which choices were the most wrong is different for each person. 
If we are talking about simply withholding sex vs cheating- someone could choose to leave before they choose to make their spouse sexless too. IMO, it can be just as wrong. 

I can't pretend that leaving/kicking someone out is easy because so much changes when you share a household and children. Of course "just leave" would be the best option but I can empathize with the fact that it's not always as simple as that. I know I have my own reasons, I have read others that I can sympathize with as well. It really depends on the situation.



2ntnuf said:


> *Edit:* The only way you could believe what you wrote, in my opinion, is if you thought someone withheld sex intentionally to somehow control their spouse. Although, from her perspective, it may seem that way, from the man's perspective, it may be something completely different. How would you know? All you can do is make an educated guess. End of edit.


I'm not sure that I care so much about if he was doing it intentionally to control/hurt their spouse or doing it for other reasons. The hurt and damage is still the same. Same as when someone has an affair. Whether they are doing it to intentionally hurt their partner or for other reasons doesn't matter as much as the fact that it was done. The damage and hurt is still there. It is important to know why but it doesn't always fix the pain.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> It takes courage to be open like that, SA. Thanks.
> 
> *I am not sure any of us knows what we would do if we found out our partner was cheating. I can imagine all kinds of scenarios.*


 I really don't think the majority of us can say with absolute certainly what we would do..... I always TRY to put myself in another's shoes... and often this is one sorrowful picture ....

Any time threads like this come up....I like to point to this story of forgiveness....I found this shorty after I landed here *>>* 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/8698-how-we-overcame-adultery.html 

This man's wife cheated on him with a neighbor for 12 long years.... and he forgave her.. WHAT [email protected]#$%^ Yes.... he Forgave her... they got past it (though one can never forget)....... He took A LOT of heat on that thread... I was feeling bad for him..

I was very intrigued by his story , even took the liberty to pm him .... because in MY MIND...there is only ONE WAY He could possibly DO this.. either he is a complete doormat (which was not the case) or he was able to acknowledge his own hand in how he HURT his wife, causing her much pain & sorrow, putting himself in her shoes and how this caused her to be weak....weaker than he could have ever imagined...he said in his 2nd post "I wasn't a perfect husband by any stretch".

.. it was exactly as I had suspected... he was another workaholic... thinking "I am supporting my family -and this should *be enough.*"... .he *WASN'T* meeting her emotional needs. 

When she confessed to him....she shook, she vomited several times, his emotions out of control, he was hyperventilating ...he wanted to kill the man...all of it....(Read Post #8)... on that thread...... what she really wanted was her husband all along...

The communication breakdown to lead to that sort of *betrayal *would be very very very hard to forgive... I don't remember it all now.. but I wouldn't call this man a fool... they are both happy today.. 5 kids/ 3 Grand children.....they overcome...

If anything can be learned on this forum.. .it is the value of communication ...and Meeting each others emotional and physical needs... so these sort of things *do not *happen.. 

*************

My husband wanted *more sex* back in the day...and I've thought about this...if he would have cheated on me, I'd still want to take his head off, whack his balls, I'd be utterly devastated..... not because he fell - as much as because he was silent with me to his needs.. If there is one thing I can not stand...it's hiding how you feel... that does not work with me.. I don't do it.. and I don't want a spouse to appease me like this.... .. dagone it -speak up if you are hurting, upset, talk to [email protected]$#$ He knows to never do that again .... He was thinking he was sparing me ... well I wouldn't have wanted him to suffer -damn it! 

Had he fell *after* he talked to me, shared what he needed...and I kept pushing him away , getting head aches, I'm so tired... Ya know what, HE TRIED... in that case, I'd forgive.. I'd see my lack, my hand in it. IF all he really wanted was his wife. 

Now me.. If I EVER dared cheat on my husband, let me just say I would be the lowest form of vile, the bottom of the barrel, despicable disgraceful woman - who deserves NO COMPASSION.. NONE...it would be pure adulterated selfishness...and nothing more. ..he gives me everything.... 

Cheating is always wrong (there is a better way, a way of integrity).... but having SOME compassion on those who suffer *and fall*.. I can still DO THIS.. depending on the individual situation ....


----------



## love=pain

jld said:


> I think it's time for some compassion for waywards.
> 
> Honestly, I do not even like the term wayward. Maybe the "wayward" felt betrayed in some way, too.
> 
> I just think humans are weak, and probably in desperate need of compassion and understanding.
> 
> And, yes, some firm boundaries and definite consequences.
> 
> *But do they have to wear the scarlet letter forever?*


Maybe not forever but how about as long as it affects the marriage and the betrayed.

Listen I get it the faster this goes away the faster the WS can look good and get back to "normal" and their horrible behavior is a thing of the past. However what they did affects more than just themselves so they are responsible for the damage done, if that betrayed husband or wife never recovers can never have a meaningful relationship with anyone then they are responsible.

If I kill someone I am a murder and I will be a murder the rest of my life, can I reform myself try to make amends sure but I will have that person's blood on my hands. Now let me go a little further suppose I was in a fight with that individual and they started the fight but I got the better of them and they died, are they responsible for the fight yep some of it just like I am. Killing them was not the only solution (for any realists I am not speaking of someone who was attacking you or your family consider them a family member who you have a history with) and instead of finding a solution for the problem between us I went nuclear, I am still a murderer. 
I try not to throw this in my wife's face, I have never called her horrible names because of her actions and I do not constantly remind her of what she has done, I shouldn't have to she knows what she did and she knows her responsibility to try to fix this, when I decided to stay and try to R I gave her an out told her then that if she couldn't handle her part in our R then she should go, she stayed so she is responsible for as long as it takes.
Needed to add I am also responsible to my marriage to make it better for as long as it takes or we are together, it takes 2 people to bring a relationship back and being mean or cruel to her will not help my marriage.


----------



## Unique Username

LaQueso said:


> I don't have time for compassion, my compassion was abused by my wayward and I am so busy cleaning up his messes and will be cleaning up his messes forever because we have kids. He used my compassion to cheat on our family, he is using my compassion to keep me trapped in a state far from the physical help our families and friends can give. He took advantage of my compassion when months after he abandoned us, he had a stroke and I had to fill out th hospital papers with his mistress demanding access in the hallway and him saying we could take turns visiting.
> He has none for me. He hasn't lifted a finger to help me or our children without being forced or shamed to.He has placed his mistress in place of me as our children's mother.
> He should wear a scarlet letter til judgement day and beyond.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know if he's getting ssdi or ssi - this can be garnished for child support.


----------



## jld

hawx20 said:


> Yeah once I had that little girl, the way I lived my life changed forever.
> 
> The day I am buried, she will be standing up in front of everyone giving a eulogy about her father. All that matters to me is what she says at that moment about the man who was her father. I live my life to make her proud to have a father like me.
> 
> There is no woman alive that I would betray my family over. Its a shame she didnt feel the same. In her case, it wasnt so much the OM, she betrayed her family for herself. The OM was just the easiest and most available penis to get.


Are you able to forgive her? Or do you still hold it against her?

I ask because if I had an affair, and my husband could not truly forgive me, I think I would rather be divorced. I would not want to live with the feeling that I was somehow undeserving or less than.


----------



## jld

love=pain said:


> Maybe not forever but how about as long as it affects the marriage and the betrayed.
> 
> Listen I get it the faster this goes away the faster the WS can look good and get back to "normal" and their horrible behavior is a thing of the past. However what they did affects more than just themselves so they are responsible for the damage done, if that betrayed husband or wife never recovers can never have a meaningful relationship with anyone then they are responsible.
> 
> If I kill someone I am a murder and I will be a murder the rest of my life, can I reform myself try to make amends sure but I will have that person's blood on my hands. Now let me go a little further suppose I was in a fight with that individual and they started the fight but I got the better of them and they died, are they responsible for the fight yep some of it just like I am. Killing them was not the only solution (for any realists I am not speaking of someone who was attacking you or your family consider them a family member who you have a history with) and instead of finding a solution for the problem between us I went nuclear, I am still a murderer.
> I try not to throw this in my wife's face, I have never called her horrible names because of her actions and I do not constantly remind her of what she has done, I shouldn't have to she knows what she did and she knows her responsibility to try to fix this, when I decided to stay and try to R I gave her an out told her then that if she couldn't handle her part in our R then she should go, she stayed so she is responsible for as long as it takes.
> Needed to add I am also responsible to my marriage to make it better for as long as it takes or we are together, it takes 2 people to bring a relationship back and being mean or cruel to her will not help my marriage.


You sound so angry. Are you sure you want to reconcile?


----------



## hawx20

jld said:


> Are you able to forgive her? Or do you still hold it against her?
> 
> I ask because if I had an affair, and my husband could not truly forgive me, I think I would rather be divorced. I would not want to live with the feeling that I was somehow undeserving or less than.



Well I'm only a couple days shy of 2 months from dday so its still pretty early. I havent completely forgiven her but I dont throw it in her face like i did for the first couple of weeks.

She has been extremely remorseful and broke out of the fog she was in. I dont know if I can ever truly completely forgive her and I never will forget. I think I can forgive her enough to be happy again though.


----------



## jld

Well, you're all right. I haven't lived it. Hope I never do. But if it were to come up, I think we would have to communicate an awful lot about what happened, and really own up to what we each did. 

I think if I thought I would hang that scarlet letter around dh's neck, or if he were to do it to me, then we would have to just split up. If there can't be real unity and forgiveness, all wrapped up with compassion and understanding, then I wouldn't want the marriage anyway.

I think part of the problem with getting over infidelity is that people think they own each other. Not in the sense of one voluntarily giving themselves to the other, but in the sense of I own that property.

People aren't property. People are complex and have lots of emotions and do things for lots of reasons. 

I am really sorry for everyone who has gone through all of this pain. Just so sorry. I hope for healing for you. It probably will not come, not really, without a lot of self-reflection on the part of both spouses and willingness to admit wrongdoing on the part of at least one.

I know it is a sensitive topic. Sometimes we learn the most on these sorts of threads. Thanks again for your participation.


----------



## sinnister

I understand that people who have been scarred emotional in a huge way dont ever recover fully. And that the majority of things you see flying a waywards way are from people that are hurting.

But I think if a wayward has enough want to come here and ask questions (and not troll) than there is no reason to provide honest answers that aren't filled with projection. Not that I haven't done it myself at times, but it goes on far too often.


----------



## hawx20

2ntnuf said:


> jld,
> 
> If betrayed spouses could be perfectly honest, or if you read enough threads, you would know that the WS is never truly forgiven. It's impossible to completely forgive the infidelity when the BS triggers at certain things throughout the rest of their lives.
> 
> Is taking them back then, a sign of true and complete forgiveness, or just a sign of willingness to try to forgive as much as humanly possible and move forward with the love that they still have inside, in spite of the infidelity and triggers?


I read your post AFTER writing mine in which I pretty much said the same thing. 

I think having sex with another person while you are married is an absolute unforgivable act. However, even though I will never completely forgive her, I think I can let it go and get past this.

It has completely changed me and life will never be the same, regardless of what happened. Our marriage will never be the same because the pureness of it is gone. I will never trust her completely again because she has proven to me she is not a person worthy of complete trust. You just cannot forgive something so negative that changes you to your core.

Moving on or getting over something is not the same as total forgiveness. There will always be resentment towards her for the rest of my life. How much is up to her since her positive actions can remove 99% of it.....but there will always be that 1% that will never go away.


----------



## jld

Are you talking to me, 2ntnuf?

I think they do see the other as "property". And in some ways, it is true.

Ten years ago or so, dh and I went out to eat with a mom and her two kids. A few days later, she gave me a card for dh. I opened the card right there, wondering why she would send a card to dh and not me, too. Another mom saw me do it and said, hey, that is for your husband and not you. I'm like, so what? He wouldn't mind.

That was not really respecting his privacy, was it? It was not trusting her. 

It was just a general thank you note for the meal. Nothing at all. And I don't know why it was addressed to just him.

So even though I don't think of myself as a jealous wife, and my dh is all over the world every month, I must still think of him in some way, at the very least, as "my guy." But really, he is free to do as he likes. How can I control him anyway?


----------



## jld

sinnister said:


> I understand that people who have been scarred emotional in a huge way dont ever recover fully. And that the majority of things you see flying a waywards way are from people that are hurting.
> 
> But I think if a wayward has enough want to come here and ask questions (and not troll) than there is no reason to provide honest answers that aren't filled with projection. Not that I haven't done it myself at times, but it goes on far too often.


I hear you in that first paragraph. But I feel sorry for waywards, too. Again, what a name.

Maybe it is just a lose-lose situation. I think affairs happen for a reason, and people need to be honest with themselves about that. I just don't think an endless punishment for the wayward is the way to go.

If my daughter were a wayward spouse, and her husband were acting the way I read some people do, I would tell her to get a divorce. Making a mistake should not mean lifelong punishment. It would just be better for both of them to start again, clean slate.


----------



## jld

2ntnuf said:


> jld,
> 
> If betrayed spouses could be perfectly honest, or if you read enough threads, you would know that the WS is never truly forgiven. It's impossible to completely forgive the infidelity when the BS triggers at certain things throughout the rest of their lives.
> 
> Is taking them back then, a sign of true and complete forgiveness, or just a sign of willingness to try to forgive as much as humanly possible and move forward with the love that they still have inside, in spite of the infidelity and triggers?


Sorry, I missed this, too. Great post.

You know, the more I think about it, the more it just seems divorce is the way to go. If there is an affair, there are problems. Without a real willingness to go into the problems, how can there be healing? And if there is no healing, then does the marriage just become a life sentence?


----------



## jld

hawx20 said:


> I read your post AFTER writing mine in which I pretty much said the same thing.
> 
> I think having sex with another person while you are married is an absolute unforgivable act. However, even though I will never completely forgive her, I think I can let it go and get past this.
> 
> It has completely changed me and life will never be the same, regardless of what happened. Our marriage will never be the same because the pureness of it is gone. I will never trust her completely again because she has proven to me she is not a person worthy of complete trust. You just cannot forgive something so negative that changes you to your core.
> 
> Moving on or getting over something is not the same as total forgiveness. There will always be resentment towards her for the rest of my life. How much is up to her since her positive actions can remove 99% of it.....but there will always be that 1% that will never go away.


Hawx20, you seem like a very nice man. You really are trying to forgive her, trying to move past it.

But if your wife were my daughter, I would still tell her to get a divorce. I just would not want my daughter viewed that way all her life by her husband. Just a mother's thoughts, I guess.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

2ntnuf said:


> Societal pressure determines what is most right. I do not. We can choose not to believe society, just as we can choose to be faithful, not matter what, and leave the marriage.
> 
> The last part of that makes no sense, since, the one who is sexless was not, "made to be sexless". It makes no sense when we are talking about cheating. It only comes into play when there is such abuse, the WS has no choice, but to be unfaithful. That would be a situation where the WS is tied up and raped. In essence, they were unfaithful, against their will. If you read some threads, you will notice, even many wives who were physically abused, by their own admission, will cheat before leaving. It seems extremely dangerous to do that in light of physical abuse. Makes me wonder if she has a death wish and if she is truly as afraid as she claims. I know, when I was abused, sex with anyone, was not on my mind. The abuse was in the back and still is in the back of my mind. It comes up all the time and stops me from moving forward.
> 
> You speak of the spouse who is, "causing", the relationship to be sexless as if they are the one who should leave. If you read all the posts here, you can find some thoughts about the person not taking this into consideration. It's a horrible thing to do, but the LD in many cases, is content. Noted when they come here and just don't understand. You don't have to feel any empathy for them. That's up to the individual.
> 
> The reason I put quotes around, causes, is because it is within the marriage and there are choices for each. The BS was not asked if it was okay for the WS to stray, in most cases. Some threads have even suggested the BS didn't care and gave the, "A-Okay". It all depends on the individuals in the relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> End of discussion.


I'm not sure I understand your rape example. I didn't mean to imply that the WS was forced to cheat due to their partner withholding sex. Simply that both the WS and the withholder had a choice- they both made a wrong choice and that either of them _could have_ left before they caused the damage with that choice. Both wrong- not one over the other. 

Also- speaking from experience as an abused spouse (95% emotional, but there was some physical) I was terrified to the point of anxiety attacks and not sleeping, turns out I was right to be as my A ended with police needing to be called for physical violence against me. 
But I can say without a doubt that my EA would not have happened if not for the abuse I was going through. Being told someone would protect me, that I was actually beautiful, that I did deserve better, feeling like someone wanted me sexually, etc, were all things that I needed. When my BS told me that he understood that if he HE had made me feel that way I wouldn't have wanted it from someone else was when we turned a corner to really fix ourselves. 

But I do absolutely feel that every situation is different and some WS have more fault, and therefore deserve less compassion than others (as do some BS) But _sometimes _when a WS talks about how bad it was, it's not "re-writing history" or being in the fog. It was bad and if this is the case and a BS can take their share of the blame it could help create a better relationship for the future. It's just not as simple as WS- wrong BS-right.


----------



## Coffee Amore

jld said:


> Honestly, I do not even like the term wayward. Maybe the "wayward" felt betrayed in some way, too.


Why don't you like the term "wayward"? Do you have an alternate term you'd prefer instead of "wayward"?


----------



## jld

2ntnuf said:


> I understand what you are saying about a card addressed to him. I think it was rude for you to do that, but you obviously didn't care about his privacy or trust that he would share that with you if there was a thank you in it for you as well. You saw yourself in a different light.
> 
> However, that is really not the same. You are talking about a thank you note compared to the sharing of the most intimate part of your self.
> 
> I don't see the comparison as plausible. If he is free to do as he likes, you would allow him to have affairs whenever and with whomever he likes, without any repurcussions, not one. I doubt that would be the case. We all have dealbreakers.


What I was trying to say is that it is easy for me to sit here and think, gee, why don't you both forgive each other? You are not each other's property, after all. You are each freely given to the other.

But because I haven't lived it, I don't know how I would react. Just seeing another woman want to have private communication with my husband worried me. If that bothered me, who knows how I would react to an affair?

I do think that compassion and understanding have to figure into a relationship where there has been brokenness at some point, if there is to be true healing. But I think it is a lot easier said than done.


----------



## Cletus

We manage to have compassion - or if not compassion, at least grudging acceptance - for many things in our life:

The loudmouth uncle at the family dinner.
Your spouse who has trouble with her diet.
You husband who drinks a little too much once in a while - or maybe all of the time.
The wife who won't make love to you more than once a month who is an otherwise "good woman".

A lot of people draw the line at infidelity, yet without minimizing it, it's really just another failing of the human condition. 

I get that it hurts more than a good many of the other things I listed, but then I've also watched my sister-in-law extend considerable compassion to my brother while his alcoholism was tearing apart their marriage. 

Too much compassion makes you a doormat. Too little makes you arrogant and uncomprehending of your own failings. Everyone has the right to decide that infidelity is a one-and-out offense for his marriage, but to place it outside the sphere of all other human failing seems to be wrong too, IMHO. It's the same category of offense, with a MUCH larger impact.


----------



## jld

Coffee Amore said:


> Why don't you like the term "wayward"? Do you have an alternate term you'd prefer instead of "wayward"?


Lol, no, I don't. It just puts the blame on one person, and I am just not sure the blame, if there is to be blame, belongs on one person.

And again, it is probably awfully rich for any of us who have not gone through this to probably even discuss it. Maybe I should not have started the thread?

I am thinking of one gal on this forum who I recently found out was a wayward spouse. I was really surprised, and I feel bad that she is wearing this label. Like one poster said, the other spouse may never really forgive. So this lady is stuck with the label. Is that really a way to go through a marriage?

If there is an affair, there are likely problems, and responsibility lies on both parties. Doubtful it is just one.

With the education I have gotten on TAM, I sure don't think I will ever have an affair. And I have just never seen dh as the type. Why ruin something so good for something so stupid?

But I would hope, if that would happen, that we could each sit down and talk about why it happened. What needs were we not meeeting in the other? What has to change? Do we even want to continue?

And I would hope that if we did decide to continue, it would be with the understanding that the affair would have to be put in the past, that we couldn't always have to be proving ourselves to the other. There would have to be efforts made to trust again. I am just not the type to learn all about tracking devices.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

2ntnuf said:


> jld,
> 
> If betrayed spouses could be perfectly honest, or if you read enough threads, you would know that the WS is never truly forgiven. It's impossible to completely forgive the infidelity when the BS triggers at certain things throughout the rest of their lives.
> 
> Is taking them back then, a sign of true and complete forgiveness, or just a sign of willingness to try to forgive as much as humanly possible and move forward with the love that they still have inside, in spite of the infidelity and triggers?


If I couldn't be forgiven or forgive I would not be in my relationship now. Infidelity is not the only thing that can cause triggers, if/when either of us have them we can discuss them and _because _we have forgiven each other and made the choice to start fresh, we can move on from them. I don't think triggers are necessarily a symptom of not forgiving. Resentment is rough but I/we made the choice to leave it in the past so that's where it stays. 

But then I, and I assume it's the same for others, wasn't just taken back. He fought for the relationship. Knowing everything he knew, he made a choice to forgive. I would imagine it would be much harder for a BS who feels stuck in his decision to R vs. one who actively wanted to.


----------



## jld

Gee, what was sandc saying the other day to someone who brought up his past to him?

It's a long way to fall, something like that. Okay, I think I messed that up. He was trying to say that it could happen to anyone faster than they think.

You don't know if you could be the wayward spouse. You don't know if you could be the homeless person. You don't know if you could end up the drug addict. Oh, I know. You know it could not happen to you.

I just think it is better to keep a humble attitude. There but for the grace of God go I. And then stay on the path! Remember that it is a choice! Take responsibility!! It will make your life easier. 

But don't condemn people who have not. You don't know everything that went into their life.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> If I couldn't be forgiven or forgive I would not be in my relationship now. Infidelity is not the only thing that can cause triggers, if/when either of us have them we can discuss them and _because _we have forgiven each other and made the choice to start fresh, we can move on from them. I don't think triggers are necessarily a symptom of not forgiving. Resentment is rough but I/we made the choice to leave it in the past so that's where it stays.
> 
> But then I, and I assume it's the same for others, wasn't just taken back. He fought for the relationship. Knowing everything he knew, he made a choice to forgive. I would imagine it would be much harder for a BS who feels stuck in his decision to R vs. one who actively wanted to.


Oh, that is a beautiful story, SGC. You must be married to a very good man. Good for you.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

jld said:


> I just think it is better to keep a humble attitude. There but for the grace of God go I.
> 
> ... You don't know everything that went into their life.


I would say something similar to folks who insist that people should show compassion toward a person who has cheated.


----------



## jld

ScarletBegonias said:


> I would say something similar to folks who insist that people should show compassion toward a person who has cheated.


Okay, don't show compassion.


----------



## turnera

2ntnuf said:


> I understand what you are saying about a card addressed to him. I think it was rude for you to do that, but you obviously didn't care about his privacy or trust that he would share that with you if there was a thank you in it for you as well.


I open everything of my H's. He wants it and expects it. I take care of stuff. He doesn't have to. If it's a credit card solicitation, I throw it away. If it's a card from someone, I give it to him. And if he were the anal type of person I was, we might be sharing the duties, but he isn't. Different strokes...


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> If there is an affair, there are likely problems, and responsibility lies on both parties. Doubtful it is just one.


Unless you just happened to marry a User, or a person who just wants to have as much sex as they have opportunity to, and they WANT to be married, they're perfectly FINE with their marriage, they just want sex with more than one person.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jld said:


> Oh, that is a beautiful story, SGC. You must be married to a very good man. Good for you.


Thanks, I have actually been quite annoyed with him lately  but these kinds of things always make me step back and focus on the good. 

I can appreciate the fact that he had compassion and wasn't too stubborn to take some blame. If he simply shut down because I was a "wh0re" and he was just a poor BS we wouldn't be where we are.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *jld said:* *Okay, don't show compassion*.


It's not going to help telling others how to FEEL...ya know.. the best we can do is be careful to marry someone who GETS US...and THINKS like us too on these very important issues -like so strongly it's a part of them.. even on the *compassion scale* on similar issues.....and hopefully we have enough compassion for them -for their imperfections, their mistakes, their weaknesses in a moment... -as they will have on us.....

We all have our more lenient scales in some areas over others...that others would think -you have a board up your a$$. 

**** For instance ...*ME*..... Don't freaking LIE to me.. cause if you do... and I find out... the trust is shattered.. I have more sympathy for someone who screws up , and comes to me with remorse than a LIAR ... 

I don't like people who are chronically late.. I find them inconsiderate & disrespectful ...and I will tell them to their face, if you don't call -I will leave at such & such a time...without you. 

I also don't like people who make promises... then conveniently forget they uttered them.. I don't have alot of compassion here.... better to not open your mouth.. I like those with integrity, that I can count on what they said. ... I can be tough...and I can be critical.. I may have to reign it in... and tie my own mouth shut to what I am REALLY thinking ..... 

I also have little compassion on those who blow their money, then whine how broke they are... when many could easily live on what they make & be comfortable...

So giving a recap here....I was careful to marry an Honest man, who always keeps his word, never late and he's frugal...this has helped us in many ways...and he's very compassionate and giving when he loves... what a blessing.


----------



## samyeagar

SimplyAmorous said:


> It's not going to help telling others how to FEEL...ya know.. the best we can do is be careful to marry someone who GETS US...and THINKS like us too on these very important issues -like so strongly it's a part of them.. even on the *compassion scale* on similar issues.....and hopefully we have enough compassion for them -for their imperfections, their mistakes, their weaknesses in a moment... -as they will have on us.....
> 
> We all have our more lenient scales in some areas over others...that others would think -you have a board up your a$$.
> 
> **** For instance ...*ME*..... Don't freaking LIE to me.. cause if you do... and I find out... the trust is shattered.. I have more sympathy for someone who screws up , and comes to me with remorse than a LIAR ...
> 
> I don't like people who are chronically late.. I find them inconsiderate & disrespectful ...and I will tell them to their face, if you don't call -I will leave at such & such a time...without you.
> 
> *I also don't like people who make promises... then conveniently forget they uttered them.. I don't have alot of compassion here.... better to not open your mouth.. I like those with integrity, that I can count on what they said*. ... I can be tough...and I can be critical.. I may have to reign it in... and tie my own mouth shut to what I am REALLY thinking .....
> 
> I also have little compassion on those who blow their money, then whine how broke they are... when many could easily live on what they make & be comfortable...
> 
> So giving a recap here....I was careful to marry an Honest man, who always keeps his word, never late and he's frugal...this has helped us in many ways...and he's very compassionate and giving when he loves... what a blessing.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

jld said:


> Okay, don't show compassion.


It likely isn't wise to get in a snit just because people challenge something you've written. I know it's hard but it's necessary if you want to grow and evolve. If you read my previous post you'd see I said some cheaters are worthy of compassion in my opinion. But I dont agree with telling folks who they should give their compassion to. that's why I quoted your post and said what I said. It isn't up to you to tell people where to place their compassion then shame them when they don't agree. You've done this on many topics where people don't take your pearls and accept them eagerly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ScarletBegonias said:


> It likely isn't wise to get in a snit just because people challenge something you've written. I know it's hard but it's necessary if you want to grow and evolve. If you read my previous post you'd see I said some cheaters are worthy of compassion in my opinion. But I dont agree with telling folks who they should give their compassion to. that's why I quoted your post and said what I said. It isn't up to you to tell people where to place their compassion then shame them when they don't agree. You've done this on many topics where people don't take your pearls and accept them eagerly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You feel like I am telling people what to do.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

jld said:


> You feel like I am telling people what to do.


Not so much telling them what to do but in a way you are shaming them and telling them how they should be. Telling them to be humble when they say cheaters deserve no compassion is perhaps not the way you want to convey your message as it is easily misunderstood...unless shaming them for the lack of forgiveness and compassion is the goal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

No, shaming is not the goal. Actually, shaming never occurred to me. But now that you say it, I can see how you can get that out of it. My apologies.

I have opinions. And really, they are just my opinions. I feel bad for people, SB. And I always seem to support the underdog. I worry about people in prison who may not have committed crimes, for example. I am concerned about people who may not have much power.

But it is true that a wayward spouse is not someone without power. She/he can always just divorce if reconciliation does not go well. 

Thanks for your explanation. I would not have gotten that without your taking the time to tell me.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Thanks, I have actually been quite annoyed with him lately  but these kinds of things always make me step back and focus on the good.
> 
> I can appreciate the fact that he had compassion and wasn't too stubborn to take some blame. If he simply shut down because I was a "wh0re" and he was just a poor BS we wouldn't be where we are.


I think your example is what I had in mind when I started the thread. The idea was: How can people heal from this? How can they become whole?

And I think your experience gives an example of this. Thanks again for sharing it.


----------



## Hope1964

You know, jld, you are walking a very thin line here. You admit you have never been a betrayed spouse, yet you call for compassion and understanding of WS's, and don't like the term 'wayward' because it implies blame.

Well, who the hell do you think SHOULD be blamed for the WS cheating then??

And do NOT say that the BS has ANY blame here. Sure you can come up with fabricated far fetched examples, but the vast majority of BS's have ZERO blame for their spouse cheating. Even in a sexless marriage, there are options.

On the other hand - BOTH spouses are to blame for whatever state their marriage is in. At any given time. So if you have a sexless marriage, each spouse has a part in that. You could probably analyze various scenarios and assign percentages to each spouse, but that isn't the point here. The point is that, when your marriage sucks, you have choices. Four of them.
1) Do nothing
2) Divorce
3) try to work on things
4) cheat

My marriage sucked before my husband cheated. It really sucked. He called it sexless, but what it was was totally lacking in intimacy. We still had sex every couple of weeks, but there was zero connection between us. So he decided to go elsewhere. I did not. We were in the same marriage, yet the choice he made was vastly different from the choice I made. I blame(d) him 100% for what he did. I did not, however, blame him 100% for our lousy marriage. That was on BOTH of us.

So you need to separate the two - the state of the marriage, and the cheating. They are separate things, and separate choices were/are made in each case, by each spouse. I don't think any marriage will come back from infidelity if this understanding is lacking on either spouses part.


----------



## jld

Hope1964 said:


> You know, jld, you are walking a very thin line here. You admit you have never been a betrayed spouse, yet you call for compassion and understanding of WS's, and don't like the term 'wayward' because it implies blame.
> 
> Well, who the hell do you think SHOULD be blamed for the WS cheating then??
> 
> And do NOT say that the BS has ANY blame here. Sure you can come up with fabricated far fetched examples, but the vast majority of BS's have ZERO blame for their spouse cheating. Even in a sexless marriage, there are options.
> 
> On the other hand - BOTH spouses are to blame for whatever state their marriage is in. At any given time. So if you have a sexless marriage, each spouse has a part in that. You could probably analyze various scenarios and assign percentages to each spouse, but that isn't the point here. The point is that, when your marriage sucks, you have choices. Four of them.
> 1) Do nothing
> 2) Divorce
> 3) try to work on things
> 4) cheat
> 
> My marriage sucked before my husband cheated. It really sucked. He called it sexless, but what it was was totally lacking in intimacy. We still had sex every couple of weeks, but there was zero connection between us. So he decided to go elsewhere. I did not. We were in the same marriage, yet the choice he made was vastly different from the choice I made. I blame(d) him 100% for what he did. I did not, however, blame him 100% for our lousy marriage. That was on BOTH of us.
> 
> So you need to separate the two - the state of the marriage, and the cheating. They are separate things, and separate choices were/are made in each case, by each spouse. I don't think any marriage will come back from infidelity if this understanding is lacking on either spouses part.


I hear your anger. I actually said the same thing in one of my posts: the conditions are shared, the actual cheating is on the one person who pulled the trigger.

I can't imagine how painful this has been, but I hear it in your voice. And you are right that someone who is just thinking about how it could heal, philosophizing, really, is going to see this differently than someone who has lived it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


----------



## samyeagar

I was in a 17 year emotionally and financially abusive marriage that was also sexless for the four final years. I never cheated. Among the many reasons I didn't, the fact that I knew my marriage was likely to end, I didn't want to eventually enter the dating scene as a cheater. I can't imagine how that would go over telling someone you are dating, that you are getting to know better that you cheated on your wife. And talking about the conditions of the marriage only make you sound like you are rationalizing. Personally, I would not be involved with a woman who cheated, regardless of her excuses.

It IS a scarlet letter to MANY people forever, not just the Betrayed Spouse. If you are a cheater, people will look at you differently, and rightfully so. You have shown youself capable of the deepest betrayal of intimacy, and that is not something you can erase from yourself no matter how badly you want to.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

As a woman being cheated on gives you the feeling of embarrassment you have to live with too. You always feel like people are looking at you like you are somehow lacking because your spouse was desperate enough to cheat. I'm sure men deal w this too. So on top of the hurt,demolished trust and scattered life you now get to live with people judging you for being betrayed. "What didn't you give him that he needed?" You're damaged goods to some people. Eta it sucks the bs's have to get stuck w their very own scarlet letter sometimes. Even when the person who cheated on them did it just for the thrill and not because the bs didn't meet their needs. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> As a woman being cheated on gives you the feeling of embarrassment you have to live with too. You always feel like people are looking at you like you are somehow lacking because your spouse was desperate enough to cheat. I'm sure men deal w this too. So on top of the hurt,demolished trust and scattered life you now get to live with people judging you for being betrayed. "What didn't you give him that he needed?" You're damaged goods to some people.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Yeah, men get the same thing when their wives cheat. I know. I did when my ex cheated.


----------



## The Middleman

jld said:


> I think it's time for some compassion for waywards.


Seriously? :rofl:


----------



## Hope1964

ScarletBegonias said:


> As a woman being cheated on gives you the feeling of embarrassment you have to live with too. You always feel like people are looking at you like you are somehow lacking because your spouse was desperate enough to cheat. I'm sure men deal w this too. So on top of the hurt,demolished trust and scattered life you now get to live with people judging you for being betrayed. "What didn't you give him that he needed?" You're damaged goods to some people. Eta it sucks the bs's have to get stuck w their very own scarlet letter sometimes. Even when the person who cheated on them did it just for the thrill and not because the bs didn't meet their needs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I must be missing something because I never felt this way. Maybe I was too mad. I wanted to tell the whole world what he did because I figured everyone would laugh at him and pity him and sympathize with me. There may have been a teensy bit of revenge factoring in to that as well


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> Yeah, men get the same thing when their wives cheat. I know. I did when my ex cheated.


This is on my phone, so apologies if it does not come out right.

SB, I am sorry you feel judged. I do not see you that way at all. And I am really sorry for your pain.

Everyone who has gone through this has my compassion. I hear the pain and the anger.

Is there anything I can do to help? Is there something you do not think has been brought up here that would be helpful to the conversation?

I am learning from this. Thanks for undoubtedly reliving some pain to share it with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NeverMore

Interesting question jld. 

My WS could have earned compassion if he was 100% remorseful. Remorseful for a day, mmmm... not so much. I treated him with compassion as I stayed and tried working on our marriage while he continually abused me and cheated on me. 

I own my part in the marriage, I could have been a better wife, lover, housekeeper, nanny, etc.... I was willing to work on all of it, him, nope, can't stop cheating. 

None of us BS's were perfect, God knows I wasn't! But I did not earn being cheated on just because I wasn't a perfect spouse.

I think WW can receive compassion but it must be earned, they don't deserve it.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

samyeagar said:


> It IS a scarlet letter to MANY people forever, not just the Betrayed Spouse. If you are a cheater, people will look at you differently, and rightfully so. You have shown youself capable of the deepest betrayal of intimacy, and that is not something you can erase from yourself no matter how badly you want to.


I guess that depends on if you think cheating is the deepest betrayal of intimacy, I don't think it is the only or deepest. For me I would rather be with someone who cheated after being emotionally and financially abused and eventually sexless vs. the one who was the abuser.
FTR- I have been a BS years ago with my first child's father but considering all the other crap he did it is pretty far down the list of deepest betrayals. 


I don't see the logic in refusing compassion for someone who had an A, unless you _also _chose to refuse compassion for all the other bad choices one can make in a marriage.


----------



## Cletus

Hope1964 said:


> On the other hand - BOTH spouses are to blame for whatever state their marriage is in. At any given time. So if you have a sexless marriage, each spouse has a part in that. You could probably analyze various scenarios and assign percentages to each spouse, but that isn't the point here. The point is that, when your marriage sucks, you have choices. Four of them.
> 1) Do nothing
> 2) Divorce
> 3) try to work on things
> 4) cheat


The relevant question as I see it is why is 4 automatically considered several orders of magnitude worse than options 1 or 2, especially when 3 has been faithfully tried and failed?

It's not entirely clear to me that cheating is always worse than divorce, for instance, especially with the intricacies of children and extended families and such. I don't need terribly far fetched examples to consider lots of cases where it might even be a better option than divorce.

So while cheating is never a good thing, I just don't automatically believe the "cheating is the worst possible thing you can do to a marriage" default position.


----------



## jld

Hope1964 said:


> I must be missing something because I never felt this way. Maybe I was too mad. I wanted to tell the whole world what he did because I figured everyone would laugh at him and pity him and sympathize with me. There may have been a teensy bit of revenge factoring in to that as well


You were hurt. I am sure it is normal to want revenge.


----------



## jld

NeverMore said:


> Interesting question jld.
> 
> My WS could have earned compassion if he was 100% remorseful. Remorseful for a day, mmmm... not so much. I treated him with compassion as I stayed and tried working on our marriage while he continually abused me and cheated on me.
> 
> I own my part in the marriage, I could have been a better wife, lover, housekeeper, nanny, etc.... I was willing to work on all of it, him, nope, can't stop cheating.
> 
> None of us BS's were perfect, God knows I wasn't! But I did not earn being cheated on just because I wasn't a perfect spouse.
> 
> I think WW can receive compassion but it must be earned, they don't deserve it.


Who is a perfect spouse? 

It seems like there are other people here who were with serial cheaters. Is that harder to deal with than a one time affair?


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I guess that depends on if you think cheating is the deepest betrayal of intimacy, I don't think it is the only or deepest. For me I would rather be with someone who cheated after being emotionally and financially abused and eventually sexless vs. the one who was the abuser.
> FTR- I have been a BS years ago with my first child's father but considering all the other crap he did it is pretty far down the list of deepest betrayals.
> 
> 
> I don't see the logic in refusing compassion for someone who had an A, unless you _also _chose to refuse compassion for all the other bad choices one can make in a marriage.


You have experienced both, SGC. You have both perspectives. That must be very painful, having been cheated on and having been abused.

You were really brave to talk about all of this on this thread. Everybody who participated was.

The best thing is to talk about it. It educates all of us. 

Again, thanks to everyone who undoubtedly felt pain in sharing these things. I hope in some way it is helpful to release some of the emotion everyone undoubtedly feels.


----------



## NeverMore

jld said:


> *Who is a perfect spouse? *
> 
> It seems like there are other people here who were with serial cheaters. Is that harder to deal with than a one time affair?


Just wanted to clarify that not all BS's think we are perfect and have done no wrong.


----------



## NeverMore

jld said:


> Who is a perfect spouse?
> 
> It seems like there are other people here who were with serial cheaters. Is* that harder to deal with than a one time affair?*


I can't say it's harder, I don't want to trivialize anyone's pain, whether it was just once or a life time. 

It is very hard to deal with for me. Mine is a serial cheater with a character disorder. My entire last 12 years feel like a complete lie. If he took responsibility for the cheating and truly tried to work on us, I am sure I could have compassion for him. But he doesn't, everything is all my fault.


----------



## jld

NeverMore said:


> Just wanted to clarify that not all BS's think we are perfect and have done no wrong.


I understood that. I loved your post, btw. 

I think cheating is just a complex issue, with lots of pain on both sides. It really seems like everybody involved could use some compassion.


----------



## jld

NeverMore said:


> I can't say it's harder, I don't want to trivialize anyone's pain, whether it was just once or a life time.
> 
> It is very hard to deal with for me. Mine is a serial cheater with a character disorder. My entire last 12 years feel like a complete lie. If he took responsibility for the cheating and truly tried to work on us, I am sure I could have compassion for him. But he doesn't, everything is all my fault.


It sounds like you have been through a nightmare. I am so sorry. And of course it is not your fault. How difficult.


----------



## NeverMore

jld said:


> I understood that. I loved your post, btw.
> 
> *I think cheating is just a complex issue,* with lots of pain on both sides. It really seems like everybody involved could use some compassion.


It really is. Mine is so screwed up it's not even funny. The problem with serial cheaters is there is something missing in them. Therefore nothing you do will ever be good enough. You are disposable to them. They have a hole in them that will never be filled. 

I searched and researched for hours trying to understand my wayward better, and how and why he could this. I understood that he was hurting, and did have valid complaints about issues in the marriage, but he refused to see how he contributed to the issues. Flat out refused. Hard to work with someone when it's one-sided.


----------



## calvin

Forgiveness and compassion go hand in hand,forgiveness must be earned through
actions and deeds,once forgiveness is giving I feel compassion follows from the betrayed.
I have seen people beat themselves up over a wrong they did to another and
do all they are capable of to make things right.
Its kinda rare but it happens,there are a few here on Tams and a couple in my life.
Compassion can be shown but it takes a WS who "gets it".
Some here actually exposed themselves on their own for the fvck up they did
and I never heard them once call it a mistake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mel123

jld said:


> I think cheating is just a complex issue, with lots of pain on both sides. It really seems like everybody involved could use some compassion.


Yep, but every case is different. I know the H of a very attractive and professional W. The WW committed suicide because of a PA with her boss who was a Dr. 

The H was left alone to care for their young child. A very sad situation


----------



## honcho

Yes humans are weak at times and us humans will do the dumbest things at times also. For myself I can forgive and try to understand just why she chose the wayward route. Having compassion for the situation, I don’t think I can have. 

Even in the case of them feeling “betrayed” already in some way doesn’t preclude the fact that an affair in the great realm of choices a person has is still the poorest choice. It simply isn’t an answer to any problem, its an escape. Each and every single person in this world is more than capable on standing on their own two feet. We don’t need anyone. If you felt that betrayed then why didn’t you accept the responsibility to make the decision to divorce or make an attempt to work on the relationship. Both parties knowing full well what is at stake? If you marriage isn’t working, you feel you have tried everything and cant give anymore, then just own the decision and get divorced. 

Can I try to have compassion to understand the events that lead to an affair, yes but an affair and the usual lies and aftermath of it. No I don’t think I can have compassion.


----------



## jld

mel123 said:


> Yep, but every case is different. I know the H of a very attractive and professional W. The WW committed suicide because of a PA with her boss who was a Dr.
> 
> The H was left alone to care for their young child. A very sad situation


Do you think she was scared to tell him?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

calvin said:


> Forgiveness and compassion go hand in hand,forgiveness must be earned through
> actions and deeds,once forgiveness is giving I feel compassion follows from the betrayed.
> I have seen people beat themselves up over a wrong they did to another and
> do all they are capable of to make things right.
> Its kinda rare but it happens,there are a few here on Tams and a couple in my life.
> Compassion can be shown but it takes a WS who "gets it".
> Some here actually exposed themselves on their own for the fvck up they did
> and I never heard them once call it a mistake.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mistake- "an action or judgment that is misguided or wrong." I don't see what's so bad about that. You can feel bad about the pain you caused while still knowing that you are a good person who made a bad choice. People are more than just their choice to A.

I'm not talking about compassion as in "I'm so sorry you went through that honey, it must have felt terrible" Just the basic- don't treat them like crap or call them names or actively seek out to hurt them because they are still a human -kind of compassion. And, if applicable, understand your own faults that lead to the marital breakdown in the first place.


----------



## jld

NeverMore said:


> It really is. Mine is so screwed up it's not even funny. The problem with serial cheaters is there is something missing in them. Therefore nothing you do will ever be good enough. You are disposable to them. They have a hole in them that will never be filled.
> 
> I searched and researched for hours trying to understand my wayward better, and how and why he could this. I understood that he was hurting, and did have valid complaints about issues in the marriage, but he refused to see how he contributed to the issues. Flat out refused. Hard to work with someone when it's one-sided.


To be honest, when I started this thread I had wayward wives in mind. I think wayward men are a whole different ballgame. Truly.

Never more, you seem like a really nice person. I am so glad you are not with that guy anymore. And thanks so much for speaking up.


----------



## jld

calvin said:


> Forgiveness and compassion go hand in hand,forgiveness must be earned through
> actions and deeds,once forgiveness is giving I feel compassion follows from the betrayed.
> I have seen people beat themselves up over a wrong they did to another and
> do all they are capable of to make things right.
> Its kinda rare but it happens,there are a few here on Tams and a couple in my life.
> Compassion can be shown but it takes a WS who "gets it".
> Some here actually exposed themselves on their own for the fvck up they did
> and I never heard them once call it a mistake.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is good, if compassion does come eventually.

I did mention in my first post that boundaries and consequences were important, but that seemed to get glossed over.

Both are necessary. Compassion and understanding along with boundaries and consequences.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Mistake- "an action or judgment that is misguided or wrong." I don't see what's so bad about that. You can feel bad about the pain you caused while still knowing that you are a good person who made a bad choice. People are more than just their choice to A.
> 
> I'm not talking about compassion as in "I'm so sorry you went through that honey, it must have felt terrible" Just the basic- don't treat them like crap or call them names or actively seek out to hurt them because they are still a human -kind of compassion. And, if applicable, understand your own faults that lead to the marital breakdown in the first place.


Yeah, it would have been good to define compassion. I guess what I had in mind was trying to understand why the wayward cheated, and then, drawing upon his own experience in life, the husband could have offered compassion along with consequences. Obviously he would be hurt. But could he overcome his hurt?

And of course there have to be consequences. Transparency, for one. Honestly, there should have been transparency before the affair. Probably would have gone a long way to preventing the affair.

And remorse, of course.

It seems there is a lot of compassion already for betrayeds, but I did not see much for waywards. And I bet they have their story, too.


----------



## jld

honcho said:


> Yes humans are weak at times and us humans will do the dumbest things at times also. For myself I can forgive and try to understand just why she chose the wayward route. Having compassion for the situation, I don’t think I can have.
> 
> Even in the case of them feeling “betrayed” already in some way doesn’t preclude the fact that an affair in the great realm of choices a person has is still the poorest choice. It simply isn’t an answer to any problem, its an escape. Each and every single person in this world is more than capable on standing on their own two feet. We don’t need anyone. If you felt that betrayed then why didn’t you accept the responsibility to make the decision to divorce or make an attempt to work on the relationship. Both parties knowing full well what is at stake? If you marriage isn’t working, you feel you have tried everything and cant give anymore, then just own the decision and get divorced.
> 
> Can I try to have compassion to understand the events that lead to an affair, yes but an affair and the usual lies and aftermath of it. No I don’t think I can have compassion.


Well, you are honest, honcho. That's the best way to be. And I am sorry for what you went through.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *To be honest, when I started this thread I had wayward wives in mind. I think wayward men are a whole different ballgame. Truly.
> *


There is something I have to ask ....cause I don't follow or understand ...I've noticed you mention this a couple times now, that you had *wives* in mind.....WHY is it different or a whole nother ballgame if it is the husband who stepped out...over the wife? 

I don't see one more deserving of compassion over the other... I think they both, depending on the circumstances, can be equally as despicable ....as well as equally emotionally suffering, I remember one poster here describing his pain in his sexless marriage like being in a prison.. he can't get out, death is his only escape.... his wife has never had any passion at all...this is his life...he has children... so he will stay...will they ever understand his sacrifice.. of course not... honorable... I don't know... Did I trust what he said.. I did... why would he lie...He had more sympathy for his wife than I  could muster ... He said he could never cheat... 

I could *feel *his prison bars..that was the choice he made - to put his children 1st.


----------



## soulpotato

JLD, thanks for this thread. You're absolutely right that there are verbal/emotional beatings waiting for most waywards, and while they should expect anger and consequences, going to the extreme and treating them as subhumans that deserve nothing but hatred and abuse can't lead to anything good. If my partner had acted as harshly towards me as some betrayeds do towards their waywards, my psyche would've imploded and I might not have survived. But because my partner eventually extended the hope of redemption instead of utter condemnation and damnation, I'm still here and doing my best to put the pieces of myself back together. 

She told me months ago that she understood and could see why I'd emotionally cheated on her. She said she'd even felt similar things towards her ex (she had reconnected with him a while before we separated). She has shown me a lot of understanding and compassion through this.


----------



## AlmostYoung

Anyone could have a lapse of judgement and get caught up in an affair, even the hard line wayward haters in this thread. 

Most marriages survive affairs. The question then becomes how best to move forward, building a stronger M. I vote for compassion and forgiveness.


----------



## AlmostYoung

NeverMore said:


> The problem with serial cheaters is there is something missing in them. Therefore nothing you do will ever be good enough. You are disposable to them. *They have a hole in them that will never be filled.*


Or that will be filled repeatedly. Can we say that here?


----------



## jld

AlmostYoung said:


> Anyone could have a lapse of judgement and get caught up in an affair, even the hard line wayward haters in this thread.
> 
> Most marriages survive affairs. The question then becomes how best to move forward, building a stronger M. I vote for compassion and forgiveness.


God bless you, AY. This is the kind of response I had hoped for. This is certainly how I feel.


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> There is something I have to ask ....cause I don't follow or understand ...I've noticed you mention this a couple times now, that you had *wives* in mind.....WHY is it different or a whole nother ballgame if it is the husband who stepped out...over the wife?
> 
> I don't see one more deserving of compassion over the other... I think they both, depending on the circumstances, can be equally as despicable ....as well as equally emotionally suffering, I remember one poster here describing his pain in his sexless marriage like being in a prison.. he can't get out, death is his only escape.... his wife has never had any passion at all...this is his life...he has children... so he will stay...will they ever understand his sacrifice.. of course not... honorable... I don't know... Did I trust what he said.. I did... why would he lie...He had more sympathy for his wife than I could muster ... He said he could never cheat...
> 
> I could *feel *his prison bars..that was the choice he made - to put his children 1st.


Could be, SA. Reformed Hubby seems nice. I guess when I think of the men who I have known who have cheated, they have not seemed very nice. They were players, I guess. My brother comes to mind.

I suppose some women are the same. But I think it would be easier to bring a woman back.

And I read once that men and women cheat for different reasons. Men like variety, and women like attention. I think if the husband would give the wife attention, it would be easier to get her back. But how can a woman give a man variety? Some are not satisfied with just one.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Hope1964 said:


> I must be missing something because I never felt this way. *Maybe I was too mad. I wanted to tell the whole world what he did *because I figured everyone would laugh at him and pity him and sympathize with me. There may have been a teensy bit of revenge factoring in to that as well


 I very much believe this is how I would react also......I can relate to how angry I was over my treatment by my step Mother.... 

How did I deal...I basically blackened her name to all of my friends... I didn't lie about stuff, or exaggerate ...but I wasn't going to try to eat all of that alone... 

... *I needed to vent*... this is what kept me from getting depressed... or possibly cutting myself (I never understood that sort of behavior) .. ..as I know my confiding in others (friends to listen, hear me Bi*ch, relate)... was my form of RELEASE of the pain.... 

I couldn't ever see me taking something to FB /dirty laundry type thing ...as this would be obvious vengeance...but I wouldn't protect someone's name if I felt wholly betrayed....(if the subject came up in conversation).....screw that... I'd speak the truth of the matter and let the chips fall where they may.


----------



## jld

soulpotato said:


> JLD, thanks for this thread. You're absolutely right that there are verbal/emotional beatings waiting for most waywards, and while they should expect anger and consequences, going to the extreme and treating them as subhumans that deserve nothing but hatred and abuse can't lead to anything good. If my partner had acted as harshly towards me as some betrayeds do towards their waywards, my psyche would've imploded and I might not have survived. But because my partner eventually extended the hope of redemption instead of utter condemnation and damnation, I'm still here and doing my best to put the pieces of myself back together.
> 
> She told me months ago that she understood and could see why I'd emotionally cheated on her. She said she'd even felt similar things towards her ex (she had reconnected with him a while before we separated). She has shown me a lot of understanding and compassion through this.


My pleasure, soulpotato. And I wish I could have done more for you and some of the other gals I have come to know here. This thread was intended for all of you. You all are really brave to stay on TAM.

People make mistakes. There is not one perfect poster on this board. But if you pick yourself up and brush yourself off, and try again, then hats off to you.

And I am glad that your partner offered you redemption. I think there needs to be more thinking along those lines: What can the wayward do to reform? What does he/she need to be able to do that? How can others help?


----------



## calvin

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Mistake- "an action or judgment that is misguided or wrong." I don't see what's so bad about that. You can feel bad about the pain you caused while still knowing that you are a good person who made a bad choice. People are more than just their choice to A.
> 
> I'm not talking about compassion as in "I'm so sorry you went through that honey, it must have felt terrible" Just the basic- don't treat them like crap or call them names or actively seek out to hurt them because they are still a human -kind of compassion. And, if applicable, understand your own faults that lead to the marital breakdown in the first place.


Exactly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> Could be, SA. Reformed Hubby seems nice. I guess *when I think of the men who I have known who have cheated, they have not seemed very nice. They were players, I guess. My brother comes to mind.*


 Ok what you said here speaks alot.. we all DO this.. we speak out of our own life experiences... you haven't known many NICE honorable men, this is why your husband stands out then...

Now in the circles we RUN... many are church people...most of the men are very NICE.. good men.. .we really don't have any "Player friends" or relatives... and many of the women I know has caused more pain for the men...one of MY friends was the cheater....and that was a fiasco - with her turning on all of us when another friend told her husband... 

She got BORED....I have another friend that I feel takes advantage of her GOOD husband, he has even cried in front of her over sex (unbelievable!) and she turned him down... she told me this over the phone, I was livid... I let her know what I thought of that! ..It's a wonder she even talks to me... No, plenty of the men I know could use a "No More Mr Nice Guy" book....Even my husband is Sweeter than I....

Though I do have 2 GF's where the men were cheaters... the one GF has basically been destroyed & her trust in men is gone... she ruins every relationship she gets because she is too suspicious...it is very very . Another one is married to an ex Cop...cheating in his past, addicted to porn... last I talked to her, she was coming undone...mentioned an old guy friend...don't know what ever came of that. 



> And I read once that men and women cheat for different reasons. *Men like variety, and women like attention. I think if the husband would give the wife attention, it would be easier to get her back. But how can a woman give a man variety? Some are not satisfied with just one.*


 Sorry for this long post...not all men want variety...some are geared more for Pair Bonding.. .the Romantic types.. I think you need to read the other side of this story....(sorry for this LONG POST!)....

Researchers have been studying the role of pair bonding and Vasopressin using Prairie Voles for some time... unlocking the mystery to why some men are geared more the "BONDING TYPE" and some simply are NOT...*and lust for that variety*...studies also show the higher testosterone, generally the higher the risk for cheating ....










Google >> " *Monogamy Gene */ * Pair Bonding* / *Vasopressin* " ..fascinating studies on this... has been talk to inject absent T-fathers with this (read that once)..... this article mentions it too (at the beginning in blue)...weighing the risks of men...



> Will Your Man Cheat?
> 
> 
> What if you could find out if your man is at a higher risk for infidelity before you married him? Dr. Phil and his panel of medical experts discuss the new science behind a cheater's brain and what can be done if your loved one is at a higher risk. ...Author of Change Your Brain, Change Your Body, Dr. Daniel Amen, author of Insatiable Wives, clinical psychologist Dr. David Ley, Claremont University's Dr. Paul Zak and author of The Male Brain, neuro-psychiatrist Dr. Louann Brizendine explain how you can discern a man's risk for infidelity and the treatment options to lower his risk:
> 
> Indicators that Your Man is at a Higher Risk for Cheating:
> 
> *Genetic Factors: *
> 
> ** *A shorter version of the vasopressin receptor gene: Scientists discovered that in prairie voles and humans, monogamous males have a long version of the vasopressin receptor gene " the gene that's been dubbed the "cheater gene" " and males who are promiscuous or stay bachelors have a shorter version.
> 
> ** *A low number of Oxytocin receptors: Oxytocin is a chemical that causes you to trust other people and form strong bonds. Men with a low number of Oxytocin receptors are less likely to form strong bonds and committed relationships and are at a higher risk of cheating.
> 
> *Physiological Indicators:*
> 
> ** *Length of ring finger compared to pointer finger: The length of a man's ring finger is linked to testosterone in utero and during puberty. A longer ring finger means more testosterone, and the increased likelihood of a greater number of sex partners and a higher risk of cheating.
> 
> *** Facial symmetry and size of jaw: If one side of a man's face matches the other side, is symmetrical, the more it is an indicator to women that that man has high genetic value. Men whose faces are more [symmetrical] are more likely to have more partners because more women want to have their children.
> 
> *** Size of penis: If a male is well-endowed, that means more testosterone and a higher risk of cheating.
> 
> *** Brain injuries: Men with a history of engaging in impact sports like football or martial arts, or men who've had a history of concussions are at a higher risk.
> 
> ** * Also, men with disorders like ADD or bipolar disorder have low pre-frontal cortex activity or hyper-frontal activity, which could mean less ability to stop impulsive behaviors, like cheating.
> 
> *Environmental/Behavioral Factors: *
> 
> ** *History of infidelity in past relationships: The best predictor of future behavior is relevant past behavior.
> 
> *** Family history of cheating: If his father cheated, that behavior may have been modeled to him
> 
> ** *A relationship that starts with cheating is likely to end with cheating
> 
> *** Lack of sexual satisfaction at home/Mismatched libido
> 
> *** Placing yourself in high-risk situations: Excitement-seeking, adrenaline-junkie behavior
> *** Stress
> ** *Childless men
> *** Husband who doesn't touch, engage or spend time with family
> 
> *How to Lower the Risk:*
> 
> * Treat the problems " ADD/bipolar disorder/brain injury
> * Stop drinking
> * Get better sleep
> * Watch blood sugar
> * Boost serotonin to calm down compulsive part
> * Increase dopamine to control impulsive part
> * Decrease caffeine/energy drinks
> * Neuro-feedback to strengthen function in frontal lobe
> * Stop contact sports/martial arts or any activity that involves impacts to the head
> * Focus on brain health
> * Open communication with partner
> * Ensure sexual satisfaction at home
> * Avoid high-risk situations
> * Raise Oxytocin levels: Touch/hug, spend time together, reduce distractions, deep breathing, build trust and empathy


----------



## soulpotato

Some interesting stuff, SA. My partner has been doing a lot of research on serotonin and dopamine and their effects.

PoMS made a post about these sorts of things as well:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/43636-re-depression-mental-disorders-infidelity.html


----------



## soulpotato

jld said:


> My pleasure, soulpotato. And I wish I could have done more for you and some of the other gals I have come to know here. This thread was intended for all of you. You all are really brave to stay on TAM.


It's definitely a tough place. My partner, much as she has been glad that it has been helpful, sometimes encourages me to abandon TAM and to find a less hostile place. She seems to worry about the effects of long-term TAM exposure. 



jld said:


> People make mistakes. There is not one perfect poster on this board. But if you pick yourself up and brush yourself off, and try again, then hats off to you.
> 
> And I am glad that your partner offered you redemption. I think there needs to be more thinking along those lines: What can the wayward do to reform? What does he/she need to be able to do that? How can others help?


I'm certainly trying. I did a lot of things wrong, but it's not because I didn't want to do things right, if that makes sense. I just had to learn how to do things right.  

I think a lot of BSs may be too hurt and angry to think that way, even with waywards other than their own.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

soulpotato said:


> *Some interesting stuff, SA. My partner has been doing a lot of research on serotonin and dopamine and their effects*.


 I am fascinated about our hormones, read a couple books on Testosterone when I worried my husband's might be too low (he was fine)...

I also have this book *>>*

The Alchemy of Love and Lust: How our sex hormones influence our relationships :Books 

... It gives all the hormone profiles (sometimes called Peptides) breaking it down into what you don't know about them....as to their sexual roles...as to behavior....what it is used to treat...and how we can influence them...what increases and decreases them.... also speaks of the interaction with other hormones ... 

Helps us understand why we ACT as we do ...and how these hormones change over the course of our lifetimes also in women and men... why when a woman breastfeeds... she wants nothing to do with sex.. why during pms , women are so cranky (not all but some worse than others)..... why Dopamine is the key denominator in every addiction from cigarettes to cocaine. ...it's all explained in here...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

soulpotato said:


> PoMS made a post about these sorts of things as well:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/43636-re-depression-mental-disorders-infidelity.html


Speaking of "Pit in my Stomach".. I hardly ever venture in that section of TAM but I ran across this thread of his *>> * 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/21172-never-say-never.html

.. explaining in detail the whole role of hormones, naming them specifically in his opening post ... he said


> "You are not as strong as your mind, and in affair situations your mind *IS ON DRUGS*. It most often starts as something “innocent” and somewhere along the line it starts… Chemicals get naturally released into the brain.. when fed small doses of "love drugs"....


....I thought it was one of the best threads I ever read here... he seems to have a great interest in this subject as well....cool you mentioned him !


----------



## hawx20

Sorry but I dont believe a word of that post. I am as strong as my mind. I will never cheat because cheating with another woman is not only hurting my spouse, but more importantly its betraying my 5 year old daughter. I'll die before I ever do that.

This whole "fog" thing is a load of crap. Its immaturity, weakness, and cowardice.

I have never cheated in any relationship...ever. Even as a teenager I never cheated. I've had the opportunities if I wanted, but I'm not built that way. I'm with someone because I love them and want to be with them. The one relationship I had that I couldnt stand being in anymore was proof of my stand. We lived together and there was zero love for her. I still dont know why I stayed with her as long as I did. I did not cheat on her though. I wasnt in love with her but I did care and respect her enough to end it first.

Sorry for being so negative this morning but I'm not having a good day thanks to my WW. I understand chemicals in the brain and desires. Its like a person trying to lose weight and being tempted to eat that delicious chocolate cake in front of you. You know its bad for you. You know you shouldnt eat it and if you do, you know how guilty you will feel......but oh I bet it tastes sooooooo good. Weaker people with little will power will eat it, stronger people wont.

My wifes affair started innocently enough with a little compliment. She knew she crossed a line at some point too. She had a choice, do the right thing and not go down that path or be weak and selfish and continue. Also, there is no damn natural drug out there that would put me in such a fog to premeditate meeting someone at a hotel to screw them. Not only make the plans, but get all dressed up, kiss your spouse and kids bye knowing you're going to screw another man and betray them all, and then drive to whatever hotel it is, do your deed, and come home and kiss your kids and spouse like nothing ever happened.

I'm sorry, but thats weakness, selfishness, and evil. 

How do you overcome your mind on "drugs"? Its called strength of character and willpower. Some have it. Those that dont use excuses to make them feel better about themselves.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

hawx20 said:


> Sorry but I dont believe a word of that post. I am as strong as my mind. I will never cheat because cheating with another woman is not only hurting my spouse, but more importantly its betraying my 5 year old daughter. I'll die before I ever do that.
> 
> This whole "fog" thing is a load of crap. Its immaturity, weakness, and cowardice.
> 
> I have never cheated in any relationship...ever. Even as a teenager I never cheated. I've had the opportunities if I wanted, but I'm not built that way. I'm with someone because I love them and want to be with them. The one relationship I had that I couldnt stand being in anymore was proof of my stand. We lived together and there was zero love for her. I still dont know why I stayed with her as long as I did. I did not cheat on her though. I wasnt in love with her but I did care and respect her enough to end it first.
> 
> How do you overcome your mind on "drugs"? Its called strength of character and willpower. Some have it. Those that dont use excuses to make them feel better about themselves.


That post was surely not about making excuses, *that man's WIFE cheated on HIM... in case you aren't aware of his story... I really do not believe he was making excuses at all , he was MAD AS HELL !*.... Also the book explaining hormones and their effect on us - is to warn us/ alert us... so we do know what is happening...Being aware of *why* we may be feeling a certain way is wisdom, not folly... then we can be more equipped to FIGHT these things..also understanding they will pass...

Absolutely.... we need to lean on our strong beliefs, our conscience...walk the way of integrity....and you are right, those who give in to it* ARE WEAK*... I wouldn't deny that! Unfortunately.. many people are this way... this is my only point. 

Just because someone presents some facts to how our hormones may TRY to lead us astray is not condoning it by any means at all.. just like it's statistically true that higher testosterone men cheat more over lower testosterone men... also the prisons are filled with those who are VERY HIGH... this , however, doesn't mean that those who are reared with morals, high values, who are self aware to FIGHT these things tooth and nail ...can't rise to be that *better man*... or person. 

Life would really suck if we couldn't control our own destiny's - at least in how we handle ourselves...We are not robots, we have choice.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> I think if I thought I would hang that scarlet letter around dh's neck, or if he were to do it to me, then we would have to just split up. If there can't be real unity and forgiveness, all wrapped up with compassion and understanding, then I wouldn't want the marriage anyway.


It's not so black and white, jld. I have often thought myself that H might make a good husband for someone else who did not have the long history of being hurt by him (two seasons of adultery- 1990 and 2008). I don't trust him and I take one day at a time. If he cheats again, I have complete freedom in my spirit to divorce.

However, we have 8 children together from age 29 to age 11. The three at home are 16yod, 13yos, and 11yos. We will share these children FOREVER. If we divorced, H would get visitation and I have no confidence that the atmosphere of his dwelling would be healthy or moral for the children. If we divorced, H and I will still see each other routinely, at every wedding, graduation, baptism, etc etc etc....

Our marriage has never been sexless however H travels for business. He trivializes cheating. He has said "It's like eating at a restaurant when you aren't home to have a home cooked meal" and claims that the women mean nothing to him and he has never had any intention of having a relationship with anyone but me. He says things like this in an effort to be "comforting" but it isn't.

In my mind, he will have the scarlet A forever. We can never go back to a time where he is a vow keeper. I don't think that is unforgiveness or bitterness on my part. I think it is realistic. Being too vulnerable or naive with him would just be dumb on my part and set me up to be deeply wounded again. I am wary. The marriage is quite scarred by his choices. The open wound is healed but the scars remain and are very sensitive when bumped.


----------



## jld

hawx20 said:


> Sorry but I dont believe a word of that post. I am as strong as my mind. I will never cheat because cheating with another woman is not only hurting my spouse, but more importantly its betraying my 5 year old daughter. I'll die before I ever do that.
> 
> This whole "fog" thing is a load of crap. Its immaturity, weakness, and cowardice.
> 
> I have never cheated in any relationship...ever. Even as a teenager I never cheated. I've had the opportunities if I wanted, but I'm not built that way. I'm with someone because I love them and want to be with them. The one relationship I had that I couldnt stand being in anymore was proof of my stand. We lived together and there was zero love for her. I still dont know why I stayed with her as long as I did. I did not cheat on her though. I wasnt in love with her but I did care and respect her enough to end it first.
> 
> Sorry for being so negative this morning but I'm not having a good day thanks to my WW. I understand chemicals in the brain and desires. Its like a person trying to lose weight and being tempted to eat that delicious chocolate cake in front of you. You know its bad for you. You know you shouldnt eat it and if you do, you know how guilty you will feel......but oh I bet it tastes sooooooo good. Weaker people with little will power will eat it, stronger people wont.
> 
> My wifes affair started innocently enough with a little compliment. She knew she crossed a line at some point too. She had a choice, do the right thing and not go down that path or be weak and selfish and continue. Also, there is no damn natural drug out there that would put me in such a fog to premeditate meeting someone at a hotel to screw them. Not only make the plans, but get all dressed up, kiss your spouse and kids bye knowing you're going to screw another man and betray them all, and then drive to whatever hotel it is, do your deed, and come home and kiss your kids and spouse like nothing ever happened.
> 
> I'm sorry, but thats weakness, selfishness, and evil.
> 
> How do you overcome your mind on "drugs"? Its called strength of character and willpower. Some have it. Those that dont use excuses to make them feel better about themselves.


I'm sorry for what you have been through, hawx20. Not sure what else to say. I hear your pain.

It is really good that you speak up. You seem to be able to express yourself through your hurt, when so many can only speak through their anger.

You know, it is through posts like this that I think I am becoming more understanding of men. I grew up with tough guys, and when something like this (cheating) was done, it was done by men. And dh works in a male-dominated industry, and so the stories he tells me are about what men are doing to women there, too. So I am biased.

I admire your staying for your daughter. That shows strength. I hope your wife can see the way she is hurting you and her daughter. Maybe she has her own hurts in life?

Have you talked with her about why she did it? I assume it is over now. Are you able to talk about it?

Again, thanks for so vulnerably sharing yourself here. Please let us know how we can help.


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> It's not so black and white, jld. I have often thought myself that H might make a good husband for someone else who did not have the long history of being hurt by him (two seasons of adultery- 1990 and 2008). I don't trust him and I take one day at a time. If he cheats again, I have complete freedom in my spirit to divorce.
> 
> However, we have 8 children together from age 29 to age 11. The three at home are 16yod, 13yos, and 11yos. We will share these children FOREVER. If we divorced, H would get visitation and I have no confidence that the atmosphere of his dwelling would be healthy or moral for the children. If we divorced, H and I will still see each other routinely, at every wedding, graduation, baptism, etc etc etc....
> 
> Our marriage has never been sexless however H travels for business. He trivializes cheating. He has said "It's like eating at a restaurant when you aren't home to have a home cooked meal" and claims that the women mean nothing to him and he has never had any intention of having a relationship with anyone but me. He says things like this in an effort to be "comforting" but it isn't.
> 
> In my mind, he will have the scarlet A forever. We can never go back to a time where he is a vow keeper. I don't think that is unforgiveness or bitterness on my part. I think it is realistic. Being too vulnerable or naive with him would just be dumb on my part and set me up to be deeply wounded again. I am wary. The marriage is quite scarred by his choices. The open wound is healed but the scars remain and are very sensitive when bumped.


((((((((((Blonde))))))))))

You don't know how much compassion I feel for you and your situation, and how much respect I have for you for tolerating what you have, all for the love of your children. I just stand in honor of you.

Blonde, I have seen your posts here, and I just have always been touched by your authentic voice. I hear the pain, I hear the anger, I hear the frustration. I could not have done what you have. I just could not.

Your situation is exactly what I have seen in men. That is why I am biased. I always stand up for the woman, partly because I think women are more vulnerable, but also because I think when you protect women, you protect children. It's why I vote the way I do.

Blonde, could I be of help in any way? I don't know what I could do, but please feel free to pm me anytime. I just feel like you are so deserving of compassion and support. Your husband reminds me so much of men I have known or heard about. 

I really feel for you. Again, sending you reams of compassion. God bless.


----------



## jld

soulpotato said:


> It's definitely a tough place. My partner, much as she has been glad that it has been helpful, sometimes encourages me to abandon TAM and to find a less hostile place. She seems to worry about the effects of long-term TAM exposure.
> *I hear you. After that thread yesterday, I just felt like quitting. I could not believe the lack of compassion for wayward wives like yourself, soulpotato. And I know other women here in that same boat. And they are just so sweet, and I just feel compassionate towards them.
> 
> And there may be men, too, like Reformed Hubby, who seems nice. I guess I just don't know as many, but maybe I will read more here. It does open my heart when I hear that a man is sorry for what he has done to his wife. I don't think there is anything more tender than a man who can sincerely admit his failings and ask for forgiveness.*
> 
> 
> I'm certainly trying. I did a lot of things wrong, but it's not because I didn't want to do things right, if that makes sense. I just had to learn how to do things right.
> *No kidding. This is what people are not taking the time to understand. I really don't think a wayward gets up in the morning and asks herself how she can be hurtful to her spouse. There is some need there that is being fulfilled. If we can figure out the need, we can find a healthier way to fill it. All this shaming and blaming is not going to solve the problem. Though, it certainly is critical that the wayward honestly admit her wrongdoing, have a plan to restore trust, and ask forgiveness, sincerely, from her partner.*
> 
> I think a lot of BSs may be too hurt and angry to think that way, even with waywards other than their own.


I think this is what I learned yesterday. I automatically think of the BS as the stronger person, the person who, because they have already gotten support from others, can afford to share some with the Wayward. But did I ever get a different picture yesterday.

It helps to think of people as just hurt and angry, instead of just mean. It helps me, anyway.

Thank you so much for posting here, soulpotato. I was told other waywards appreciated my thread but were too afraid to speak up. Gosh, that makes me sad. I hate to see people intimidated and afraid to speak. It doesn't make for a healthy society. Everyone has their story. We learn from listening to everyone. God bless, soulpotato.


----------



## hawx20

jld said:


> I'm sorry for what you have been through, hawx20. Not sure what else to say. I hear your pain.
> 
> It is really good that you speak up. You seem to be able to express yourself through your hurt, when so many can only speak through their anger.
> 
> You know, it is through posts like this that I think I am becoming more understanding of men. I grew up with tough guys, and when something like this (cheating) was done, it was done by men. And dh works in a male-dominated industry, and so the stories he tells me are about what men are doing to women there, too. So I am biased.
> 
> I admire your staying for your daughter. That shows strength. I hope your wife can see the way she is hurting you and her daughter. Maybe she has her own hurts in life?
> 
> Have you talked with her about why she did it? I assume it is over now. Are you able to talk about it?
> 
> Again, thanks for so vulnerably sharing yourself here. Please let us know how we can help.


As far as why she did it....she had a MLC, started hanging out with a younger crowd, I guess she became intoxicated with the single life and reality of being a wife and mother just wasnt as fun I guess. She said she was having the fun she missed out on when she was in her twenties because she was a single and struggling mom. My stepsons father, who would pick him up every other weekend, started noticing the benefits of my wife hitting the gym like a mad woman. So he began hitting on her everytime he picked up the boy. She was so weak and craved attention that she took the bait and the rest was history. Now keep in mind this woman didnt lack attention from me. It just wasnt as fun or good feeling when it came from someone else.

Cheaters really do sicken me. Everyday I wake up wanting to leave but not being able to be with my daughter everyday of her young life hurts me more than anything my wife could ever do to me. I remember watching Mrs. Doubtfire when I was younger and the pain he had from not being able to see his kids everyday. I am an incredibly strong man emotionally, but when it comes to my daughter, I dont have a chance.

My stance on cheating comes down to respect, honor, and love. I respect the person I am with. I respect their life, their feelings, and their well being. I honor the vows we took and the fact that we decided to share our life together. 

At the time my wife cheated, I wasnt in love with her due to how ugly she had become and how she turned our marriage into a passionless and loveless one. Never did I consider cheating even though I was the would who would have been completely justified in doing so, if there is such a thing. I tried everything I could. I asked myself everyday what I could do to be a better man/husband/father. I was never perfect, but I tried so very hard to be the best I could be. My wife on the other hand, denied me sex under the guise of a low sex drive and sex just not being important to her. So her infidelity was a double whammy for me.

My whole issue with using the fog or brain chemicals as an excuse is that there is a line that is crossed well before any brain intoxicating drug happens. If you decide to use cocaine or meth, you know that you may die or get addicted. If you choose to flirt with a person and keep continuing, there is a chance other things can happen.

When you know the path in front of you is a slippery slope and you choose to continue on it anyways, dont blame anything but your full conscious mind when you end up hurt at the bottom.


----------



## jld

SA, you are right on that we see things out of our own life experience. I grew up with tough guys, and if anyone was going to take advantage of someone else, it was going to be a man doing it. 

My dad had a strong character. He was an angry, strict man. I am sure my views on men are very much based on what I saw there, and lived for so many years. I was so afraid of my dad. I started to lose that fear, literally to feel it lifting, about 8 months after he died.

We haven't belonged to a church, so I can't speak to that.

You and I have good marriages, but I think the dynamic must be very different. But we are both happy in our marriages, and that is the main thing.

I am not a biology person, but thank you for sharing all the research you have done. You really are a reader, SA. That is so good.


----------



## calvin

I think the fog is a bunch of garbage myself,they knew what they were doing,
my wife told me a few times I was paranoid.
I'll be hitting the two year anniversary of Dday soon,it was only a couple months ago
that I was able to show my wife some compassion.
She's beat herself up more than enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

hawx20 said:


> Sorry but I dont believe a word of that post. I am as strong as my mind. I will never cheat because cheating with another woman is not only hurting my spouse, but more importantly its betraying my 5 year old daughter. I'll die before I ever do that.
> 
> This whole "fog" thing is a load of crap. Its immaturity, weakness, and cowardice.
> 
> I have never cheated in any relationship...ever. Even as a teenager I never cheated. I've had the opportunities if I wanted, but I'm not built that way. I'm with someone because I love them and want to be with them. The one relationship I had that I couldnt stand being in anymore was proof of my stand. We lived together and there was zero love for her. I still dont know why I stayed with her as long as I did. I did not cheat on her though. I wasnt in love with her but I did care and respect her enough to end it first.
> 
> How do you overcome your mind on "drugs"? Its called strength of character and willpower. Some have it. Those that dont use excuses to make them feel better about themselves.


It is very much like an addiction. You don't start off being an addict. When things start everything is under control, you don't realize how hooked you are. It's not like everyone just goes out with the plan to cheat. 

For me, when it started it was just a guy being a friend, giving advice. He was old enough to be my father (and I'm almost 30) and spoke to me like one, it was all out in the open and under control. Nothing was hidden. Then it slowly turned into more "I wish I could have found someone like you" "he doesn't know how lucky he is" "You are so beautiful" etc. By that time I knew logically that it had crossed the line but it was harder than I could explain, and I could convince myself that as long as it stayed just emotional I was Ok and because I had already made it clear several times before this that I wanted H to leave and I was done... it wasn't really cheating  Your brain is very much like it is on drugs, having done both I could definitely relate to the high you feel and the terrifying way you can convince yourself to keep going despite every rational part of you that is screaming STOP. 
I ended it at about 3 weeks, when I separated and he took that to mean that we could now be together. I didn't want to be with him, I just was hooked on the compliments, attention, and sexual desire he had for me. At one point I could see myself turning it into a PA just to get more of the EN filled, which is very disgusting to actually examine. Like sleeping with a dealer to get drugs. 

But now knowing all this about myself I know that I can't ever let it get to the first stage in fear of it getting hard to control. No friendships, no conversations that go further than "where's the bus stop" no secrets, no unknown passwords. Like an alcoholic that can't have 1 drink, I'd rather not risk it and believe me, it doesn't make me feel better about myself that I was too weak and stupid to be able to trust myself in that kind of situation ever again. I would be a lot happier if I could say with honesty that I don't need boundaries because I would just be a strong willed person. Right now I could tell you that 100% that I wouldn't, the "fog" scares me enough to not test it. 

When people talk about the "fog" or drug, it's not to say that they should be excused because it's not their fault. It was, I had a choice every single day and made the wrong one. It's a reason why it can get out of control in the first place because once you're in, it's hard to get out. To pretend that it doesn't exist would be very dangerous for many people- perhaps only us weak, immature, coward people, but I'd rather recognize these faults in me and take action to fix them rather than just pretend like I could flip a switch to turn them off.


----------



## jld

hawx20 said:


> As far as why she did it....she had a MLC, started hanging out with a younger crowd, I guess she became intoxicated with the single life and reality of being a wife and mother just wasnt as fun I guess. She said she was having the fun she missed out on when she was in her twenties because she was a single and struggling mom. My stepsons father, who would pick him up every other weekend, started noticing the benefits of my wife hitting the gym like a mad woman. So he began hitting on her everytime he picked up the boy. She was so weak and craved attention that she took the bait and the rest was history. Now keep in mind this woman didnt lack attention from me. It just wasnt as fun or good feeling when it came from someone else.
> 
> Cheaters really do sicken me. Everyday I wake up wanting to leave but not being able to be with my daughter everyday of her young life hurts me more than anything my wife could ever do to me. I remember watching Mrs. Doubtfire when I was younger and the pain he had from not being able to see his kids everyday. I am an incredibly strong man emotionally, but when it comes to my daughter, I dont have a chance.
> 
> My stance on cheating comes down to respect, honor, and love. I respect the person I am with. I respect their life, their feelings, and their well being. I honor the vows we took and the fact that we decided to share our life together.
> 
> At the time my wife cheated, I wasnt in love with her due to how ugly she had become and how she turned our marriage into a passionless and loveless one. Never did I consider cheating even though I was the would who would have been completely justified in doing so, if there is such a thing. I tried everything I could. I asked myself everyday what I could do to be a better man/husband/father. I was never perfect, but I tried so very hard to be the best I could be. My wife on the other hand, denied me sex under the guise of a low sex drive and sex just not being important to her. So her infidelity was a double whammy for me.


I'm so sorry, Hawx. Just so sorry. You really do seem like an honorable man, like SA said. On behalf of womankind, I would like to apologize for your wife. I am truly sorry she did not honor you. You did not deserve to be treated that way, and your daughter did not deserve it, either.

You are a great dad, Hawx. And a great husband, whether your wife can see it right now or not. I'm so ashamed of what she did. I hope some day she can be ashamed, too. I hope she can humble herself and sincerely ask your forgiveness. And I hope you can forgive her.

I guess the mistake I make when I think of women is that I think all women are like me. I have a sensitive conscience and I assume other women do, too. My sisters certainly do, and they were so often taken advantage of by men. So I am naturally leery of men.

Hawx, what do you think your wife could do differently now? What would you like to see?


----------



## hawx20

calvin said:


> I think the fog is a bunch of garbage myself,they knew what they were doing,


My point exactly. By the time these "mind inducing" drugs really kick in, the point of no return had long been crossed.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It is very much like an addiction. You don't start off being an addict. When things start everything is under control, you don't realize how hooked you are. It's not like everyone just goes out with the plan to cheat.
> 
> For me, when it started it was just a guy being a friend, giving advice. He was old enough to be my father (and I'm almost 30) and spoke to me like one, it was all out in the open and under control. Nothing was hidden. Then it slowly turned into more "I wish I could have found someone like you" "he doesn't know how lucky he is" "You are so beautiful" etc. By that time I knew logically that it had crossed the line but it was harder than I could explain, and I could convince myself that as long as it stayed just emotional I was Ok and because I had already made it clear several times before this that I wanted H to leave and I was done... it wasn't really cheating  Your brain is very much like it is on drugs, having done both I could definitely relate to the high you feel and the terrifying way you can convince yourself to keep going despite every rational part of you that is screaming STOP.
> I ended it at about 3 weeks, when I separated and he took that to mean that we could now be together. I didn't want to be with him, I just was hooked on the compliments, attention, and sexual desire he had for me. At one point I could see myself turning it into a PA just to get more of the EN filled, which is very disgusting to actually examine. Like sleeping with a dealer to get drugs.
> 
> But now knowing all this about myself I know that I can't ever let it get to the first stage in fear of it getting hard to control. No friendships, no conversations that go further than "where's the bus stop" no secrets, no unknown passwords. Like an alcoholic that can't have 1 drink, I'd rather not risk it and believe me, it doesn't make me feel better about myself that I was too weak and stupid to be able to trust myself in that kind of situation ever again. I would be a lot happier if I could say with honesty that I don't need boundaries because I would just be a strong willed person. Right now I could tell you that 100% that I wouldn't, the "fog" scares me enough to not test it.
> 
> When people talk about the "fog" or drug, it's not to say that they should be excused because it's not their fault. It was, I had a choice every single day and made the wrong one. It's a reason why it can get out of control in the first place because once you're in, it's hard to get out. To pretend that it doesn't exist would be very dangerous for many people- perhaps only us weak, immature, coward people, but I'd rather recognize these faults in me and take action to fix them rather than just pretend like I could flip a switch to turn them off.


Thanks so much for sharing this with us, SGC. You are such a brave girl! 

I totally agree about transparency. Dh has my passwords and is welcome to look at anything of mine at any time. I actually feel safer that way. He can tell me if I am doing something wrong. 

Sometimes I feel kind of rebellious when he corrects me, but ultimately I am glad for it. I just don't think I have the judgment he has. If anything, I wish I would listen to him more and not make mistakes in the first place.

Have you found a way to fill your needs, SGC, in a healthier way? I'm sorry, I can't remember exactly what your life situation is right now.


----------



## hawx20

jld said:


> I'm so sorry, Hawx. Just so sorry. You really do seem like an honorable man, like SA said. On behalf of womankind, I would like to apologize for your wife. I am truly sorry she did not honor you. You did not deserve to be treated that way, and your daughter did not deserve it, either.
> 
> You are a great dad, Hawx. And a great husband, whether your wife can see it right now or not. I'm so ashamed of what she did. I hope some day she can be ashamed, too. I hope she can humble herself and sincerely ask your forgiveness. And I hope you can forgive her.
> 
> I guess the mistake I make when I think of women is that I think all women are like me. I have a sensitive conscience and I assume other women do, too. My sisters certainly do, and they were so often taken advantage of by men. So I am naturally leery of men.
> 
> Hawx, what do you think your wife could do differently now? What would you like to see?


Thanks for the kind words. To her credit, she has been extremely remorseful and she is back to being the woman I married. Problem is I dont trust her and I dont know if this is really her. Only time will tell that. 

She really turned our marriage into a passionless sex starved marriage. The quantity of sex diminished (once a week, twice if I were "lucky), but the quality, or lack thereof, that really sucked. It was boring duty sex, no passion, no kissing, basically she was no more than a masturbation tool. I tried giving her attention, but she would get annoyed by it half the time. I complimented her all the time, but I was her husband who was supposed to do that so they didnt do much for her I guess.

So now i'm having a hard time believing that shes back to the person she was when we married. Sex is way up, the quality is fantastic. Its passionate and hot. Her attitude has completely changed, she is very loving again. Its nice and all, but will it last? Thats the 64 million dollar question that remains to be answered.



slowlygoingcrazy said:


> It is very much like an addiction. You don't start off being an addict. When things start everything is under control, you don't realize how hooked you are. It's not like everyone just goes out with the plan to cheat.


I understand what you are saying, but at this point, you know you are doing something you shouldnt be. You know that what you are doing is not right. I've never done crack, but I know I shouldnt do it and I know there is a chance things will go very bad. 

Maybe I just have stricter views. I've had women hit on me before. Yes, it feels really good to know "you still got it". When I've been hit on, it makes me want my wife, not the woman hitting on me. I know that flirting back with her is starting down that slippery slope.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jld said:


> Thanks so much for sharing this with us, SGC. You are such a brave girl!
> 
> I totally agree about transparency. Dh has my passwords and is welcome to look at anything of mine at any time. I actually feel safer that way. He can tell me if I am doing something wrong.
> 
> Sometimes I feel kind of rebellious when he corrects me, but ultimately I am glad for it. I just don't think I have the judgment he has. If anything, I wish I would listen to him more and not make mistakes in the first place.
> 
> Have you found a way to fill your needs, SGC, in a healthier way? I'm sorry, I can't remember exactly what your life situation is right now.


Thanks, and I can relate to the rebellion. I used to think it was controlling to have such transparency but it really is just protecting your marriage. As for my EN, we are working on it and it is a very slow process which can be infuriating at times.

Our issues are complicated because they began so early in our relationship. I got pregnant quickly and he was convinced I had done it on purpose to trap him and pretty much made my life a living hell for a while. By the time he came around I was too pissed to care and we were in a cycle of pain back and forth. Then we just kind of got comfortable with it being terrible and went the bitter roommate route. We don't really have the good old times to look back on and reminisce so we are just starting a new one. We went on our first date not too long ago ( I don't mean first since the problems, our actual first date. We never had one!) 

Resentment, old habits and past fights come back to bite us but we are trying to leave it all in the past and move on. 
Right now, our relationship is the best it's ever been... but the bar was pretty low. Just recently have implemented some new strategies that look like they will pay off and since we both know that we can and will leave if things ever get so bad again, we fight to keep it instead of just settling and being angry. I think we have the potential to have an amazing relationship if we use what we know and grow from here.


----------



## turnera

SimplyAmorous said:


> I also have this book *>>*
> 
> The Alchemy of Love and Lust: How our sex hormones influence our relationships :Books
> Helps us understand why we ACT as we do ...and how these hormones change over the course of our lifetimes also in women and men... why when a woman breastfeeds... she wants nothing to do with sex.. why during pms , women are so cranky (not all but some worse than others)..... why Dopamine is the key denominator in every addiction from cigarettes to cocaine. ...it's all explained in here...


Interestingly, there's another great book called Emotional Alchemy, that talks about how our brain gets hardwired in childhood and we use those 'strong' paths to make choices as adults.


----------



## jld

hawx20 said:


> Thanks for the kind words. To her credit, she has been extremely remorseful and she is back to being the woman I married. Problem is I dont trust her and I dont know if this is really her. Only time will tell that.
> 
> She really turned our marriage into a passionless sex starved marriage. The quantity of sex diminished (once a week, twice if I were "lucky), but the quality, or lack thereof, that really sucked. It was boring duty sex, no passion, no kissing, basically she was no more than a masturbation tool. I tried giving her attention, but she would get annoyed by it half the time. I complimented her all the time, but I was her husband who was supposed to do that so they didnt do much for her I guess.
> 
> So now i'm having a hard time believing that shes back to the person she was when we married. Sex is way up, the quality is fantastic. Its passionate and hot. Her attitude has completely changed, she is very loving again. Its nice and all, but will it last? Thats the 64 million dollar question that remains to be answered.


You are right, only time will tell.

Are you transparent with her, Hawx? And do you use active listening? Basically, when she talks about her feelings to you (does she do this?), you repeat them back to her. It usually makes someone feel listened to and understood. It makes her feel safe to share more with you. The more she shares, and feels understood, the more loved and accepted she feels. This increases the intimacy.

I truly wish healing for you, Hawx. And for your wife, too.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Thanks, and I can relate to the rebellion. I used to think it was controlling to have such transparency but it really is just protecting your marriage. As for my EN, we are working on it and it is a very slow process which can be infuriating at times.
> 
> Our issues are complicated because they began so early in our relationship. I got pregnant quickly and he was convinced I had done it on purpose to trap him and pretty much made my life a living hell for a while. By the time he came around I was too pissed to care and we were in a cycle of pain back and forth. Then we just kind of got comfortable with it being terrible and went the bitter roommate route. We don't really have the good old times to look back on and reminisce so we are just starting a new one. We went on our first date not too long ago ( I don't mean first since the problems, our actual first date. We never had one!)
> 
> Resentment, old habits and past fights come back to bite us but we are trying to leave it all in the past and move on.
> Right now, our relationship is the best it's ever been... but the bar was pretty low. Just recently have implemented some new strategies that look like they will pay off and since we both know that we can and will leave if things ever get so bad again, we fight to keep it instead of just settling and being angry. I think we have the potential to have an amazing relationship if we use what we know and grow from here.


I am so glad to hear this, SGC. And I am surprised you were told that transparency is controlling. Honestly, some of the things I read here sometimes. 

If I could, I would have dh read every post and every pm before I send it, but that just is not possible. But as long as he has the passwords, I feel like I am covered. His trust in me is precious, and if I ever lost it, I would feel terrible shame. I already feel shame for the ways I have not been the best for him. But he is so kind and forgiving, and patient with me. I am grateful.

Are you humble with your husband, SGC? Or is it hard to trust him enough to be that way?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

hawx20 said:


> I understand what you are saying, but at this point, you know you are doing something you shouldnt be. You know that what you are doing is not right. I've never done crack, but I know I shouldnt do it and I know there is a chance things will go very bad.
> 
> Maybe I just have stricter views. I've had women hit on me before. Yes, it feels really good to know "you still got it". When I've been hit on, it makes me want my wife, not the woman hitting on me. I know that flirting back with her is starting down that slippery slope.


I agree, the best thing to do is stay far, far away from the slope. It doesn't always start out as "hey, here's some crack for you to get addicted to" sometimes it's a few drinks here, a few there.... just stay away and you won't have to worry about slipping down. Some relationships are Ok with opposite sex friendships and even light flirting or going out and can walk a more dangerous path but the state my relationship was in, the need I had for emotional connection and my weakness and inability to control myself means that I shouldn't have been on the hill to begin with and now I know not to go back on one. 

I hope your wife's changes will last. I wish you the best.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> *When people talk about the "fog" or drug, it's not to say that they should be excused because it's not their fault. It was, I had a choice every single day and made the wrong one. It's a reason why it can get out of control in the first place because once you're in, it's hard to get out. To pretend that it doesn't exist would be very dangerous for many people- perhaps only us weak, immature, coward people, but I'd rather recognize these faults in me and take action to fix them rather than just pretend like I could flip a switch to turn them off.*


 I appreciate your posting this ...it is exactly what I am trying to get across here.. 



> *jdl said:** I totally agree about transparency. *Dh has my passwords and is welcome to look at anything of mine at any time. I actually feel safer that way. He can tell me if I am doing something wrong.


*Healthy Boundaries* are very very important and *Transparency* in marriage (what I call a "*willing transparency*"...I hesitate to even say it without the WILLING in the front of the word anymore.... I did a thread on this to explain how this plays out..it's always been our way since long before we married even....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...parency-what-means-our-marraige-what-you.html

What I learned through the thread replies...the majority would think my & husband's is TOO MUCH.... I mean, we share it all (& this doesn't mean sharing every boring moment of your day, not at all!.. another misconception- when that word gets used)....
I don't believe in secrets in marriage at all ...







...*as this is the beginning of EVERY SLIPPERY SLOPE*... this article explains that very very well *>>* 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/articles/993-sex-lies-secrets-secrecy-destroying-your-marriage.html ...



> *jld said*: *And I am surprised you were told that transparency is controlling*


Oh so often this gets played on this forum... I really believe this is a compatibility issue even... 

I haven't been reading every post closely here (forgive me!)...as I construct these replies of mine....just picking up snippets .... this stood out to me.. see this right here would be a MAJOR mountainous red flag to me.. I have transparency (again willing/ giving) probably in my top 5 deal breakers with a man, I could *only* be with someone who wanted to share as openly and freely as I cared to do...or we'd be a HUGE mismatch....


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Sometimes I feel kind of rebellious when he corrects me, but ultimately I am glad for it. I just don't think I have the judgment he has. If anything, I wish I would listen to him more and not make mistakes in the first place.


What does this mean?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jld said:


> Are you humble with your husband, SGC? Or is it hard to trust him enough to be that way?


I still have walls up at times but it's a work in progress. We both have to learn how to not just get our defensive up from the start


----------



## jld

I don't know that dh is transparent with me, SA. He is not as much of a talker, for one. And I don't think he feels I need to know everything. 

He once told me he was expecting a bonus, but was not sure, and so did not tell me until he got it. He did not want to disappoint me.

But I am transparent with him. I have to be. I don't want to make too big of mistakes, you know? And sometimes I am ashamed to tell him my shortcomings. But he is always much kinder and patient than I think I deserve. Well, most of the time.  

Again, so grateful.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> What does this mean?


Well, for example, a few weeks ago I posted some personal information on here, not realizing the danger. Dh saw it (I was showing him my post) and told me to remove it. Then he talked to me about the things I should not post. 

But a week later, I posted some other personal thing (names). A few minutes later, when I showed him the post, he was not pleased, and told me to remove it. I should have known, but I did it anyway.

Now I just really try to not give any specifics, just to cover myself. I am just naturally pretty open and honest, and I have to remember to be careful, as much as I can, with that.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Regarding compassion for waywards being honest a lot of us don't deserve it. Too many waywards self justify and expect their spouses to "just get over it". I can't speak for other waywards but I reached a really low point. I couldn't even look myself in the mirror anymore. That's when I had to let my wife know what I had done. Even I am skeptical of waywards that only stop because they get caught. To me it makes it very difficult to determine if they are really sorry for the actions.

I'm glad that this thread is exploring that there are differences between wayward spouses. I really can't relate to the fog at all. In my opinion its more likely that wayward spouses that claim to be in the fog are in love with or in the beginning phases of falling in love with the AP. Calling it fog just sounds better I suppose. I think less people would want their wayward spouse back if we called it what it really is.

I now realize that I am flawed, and as a result I have to have stronger boundaries in place for myself than most other people. Its been over ten years since D-Day but I don't think I should get too comfortable and relax my boundaries, because I know that I failed before. A wayward that falls back into old habits will soon be wayward again.


----------



## Jamison

jld said:


> Well, for example, a few weeks ago I posted some personal information on here, not realizing the danger. Dh saw it (I was showing him my post) and told me to remove it. Then he talked to me about the things I should not post.


 Meaning, you posted personal info about you and your husband?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

turnera said:


> *Interestingly, there's another great book called Emotional Alchemy, that talks about how our brain gets hardwired in childhood and we use those 'strong' paths to make choices as adults.*


Sounds like a good book... I looked it up... Emotional Alchemy: How the Mind Can Heal the Heart: Books



> *jld said*: *I don't know that dh is transparent with me, SA. He is not as much of a talker, for one. And I don't think he feels I need to know everything.
> 
> He once told me he was expecting a bonus, but was not sure, and so did not tell me until he got it. He did not want to disappoint me.*


 Mine REALLY does share the highlights of his day, everything that was JUICY, dirty funny, when he gets upset... Heck I bet I know some things about the men he works with some of their wives may not know (with us, what we share REMAINS with US...period)... Very little upsets me... I don't like to be in the dark... He knows this, I can handle it .

Once his Mother wanted him to keep a secret from me.. it was the funniest thing...(it was so silly & I would have learned a couple weeks later - about her buying a house)....he was seriously bothered by this.. he starts telling me in the bathroom he can't take it any longer (Not sure he even lasted a day)...saying I am his soul mate....and he has to tell me.. I was laughing so hard ... it was like this weight was lifted off his chest....and it was so "nothing"... ya know...

He can't keep things from me.. any more than I can keep them from him... It's a beautiful thing.... All my friends know if they share something with me, he will also hear about it. (I mean if I was led to mention it -type thing, not that he would want to hear all that- of course not).... they love him...we're earned their trust through the years... we don't make waves, or leak things.. nothing like this....a couple have even asked me, ASK _____ and wanted his thoughts too....

Even the guys at work seem to gravitate to him -with their issues ....he's even handed the phone to them and said "Call my wife and ask her!".... Not sure what it is about us.. but people like to open up to us... I'm "Dear Abby" and he is my sidekick.


----------



## jld

Jamison said:


> Meaning, you posted personal info about you and your husband?


You are curious?


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Well, for example, a few weeks ago I posted some personal information on here, not realizing the danger.


What danger would that be? That some anonymous poster your H will never meet would see him in a non-flattering way?

Or were you admitting you robbed a bank or something?


----------



## jld

ReformedHubby said:


> Regarding compassion for waywards being honest a lot of us don't deserve it. Too many waywards self justify and expect their spouses to "just get over it". I can't speak for other waywards but I reached a really low point. I couldn't even look myself in the mirror anymore. That's when I had to let my wife know what I had done. Even I am skeptical of waywards that only stop because they get caught. To me it makes it very difficult to determine if they are really sorry for the actions.
> 
> I'm glad that this thread is exploring that there are differences between wayward spouses. I really can't relate to the fog at all. In my opinion its more likely that wayward spouses that claim to be in the fog are in love with or in the beginning phases of falling in love with the AP. Calling it fog just sounds better I suppose. I think less people would want their wayward spouse back if we called it what it really is.
> 
> I now realize that I am flawed, and as a result I have to have stronger boundaries in place for myself than most other people. Its been over ten years since D-Day but I don't think I should get too comfortable and relax my boundaries, because I know that I failed before. A wayward that falls back into old habits will soon be wayward again.


I respect your honesty, RH. More people like you are needed here. And you are humble about what you did. That is so important.

And you are right that we have to be careful. That's why transparency is so important.

Thanks for your post.


----------



## Jamison

jld said:


> You are curious?


I'm asking if you had posted personal info about you and your husband and thats why he wanted you to remove it? Or if it was about something else that had nothing to do with either of you, and he just thought it should be removed for whatever reason.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> What danger would that be? That some anonymous poster your H will never meet would see him in a non-flattering way?
> 
> Or were you admitting you robbed a bank or something?


It was birth years, I think. I kind of think it was an overreaction, but if it bothers him, I don't want to do it. And one time I posted his parents' first names. He really did not like that, especially since he had just told me not to give identifying information.

No, I haven't robbed any banks.

And he could truly not care less about what anyone thinks of him, internet or IRL.


----------



## joe kidd

Look. If a wayward is truly sorry and sees the error of their ways then compassion will come their way at some point. As was said mistakes get made . That being said, I have none for cake eating, blame shifting waywards who show no remorse or worse yet fake it.


----------



## jld

That is really sweet, SA, that your husband just has to tell you things. I think dh could keep anything from me. He just does not have that need to share. I have it enough for both of us, lol!


----------



## turnera

> But I am transparent with him. *I have to be*. I don't want to make *too big of mistakes*, you know? And sometimes *I am ashamed to tell him my shortcomings*. But he is always much kinder and patient *than I think I deserve*. Well, *most of the time*.
> 
> *Again, so grateful*.
> 
> *told me to remove it*. Then *he talked to me* about the things I should not post.
> 
> But a week later, I posted some other personal thing (names). A few minutes later, when I showed him the post, *he was not pleased*, and told me to remove it. *I should have known*, but I did it anyway.


jld, do any of the following things apply to your relationship?

Frequently blames or criticizes you
Calls you names
Ridicules your beliefs, religion, race class or sexual preference
Blames you for "causing" his actions/words
Ridicules/makes bad remarks about your gender
Criticizes or threatens to hurt your family or friends
Isolates you from your family and friends
Tries to keep you from doing something you wanted to do
Is angry if you pay too much attention to someone or something else (children, friends, school, etc.)
Withholds approval, appreciation or affection
Humiliates you
Becomes angry if meals or housework are not done to his/her liking
Makes contradictory demands
Does not include you in important decisions
Does not allow you to sleep
Repeatedly harasses you about things you did in the past
Takes away car keys, money or credit cards
Threatens to leave or tells you to leave.
Checks up on you (listens to your phone calls, looks at phone bills, checks the mileage on the car, etc.)
Tells people you suffer from a mental illness
Threatens to commit suicide
Interferes with your work or school (provokes a fight in the morning, calls to harass you at work, etc.)
Minimizes or denies hurtful actions
Breaks dates and cancels plans without reason
Uses loud or intimidating tone of voice
Comes home at late hours refusing an explanation


----------



## jld

joe kidd said:


> Look. If a wayward is truly sorry and sees the error of their ways then compassion will come their way at some point. As was said mistakes get made . That being said, I have none for cake eating, blame shifting waywards who show no remorse or worse yet fake it.


Thanks for allowing the possibility of compassion at some point, Joe. Were you angry at the beginning of this thread yesterday? Somehow I got that feeling.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> jld, do any of the following things apply to your relationship?
> 
> Frequently blames or criticizes you
> Calls you names
> Ridicules your beliefs, religion, race class or sexual preference
> Blames you for "causing" his actions/words
> Ridicules/makes bad remarks about your gender
> Criticizes or threatens to hurt your family or friends
> Isolates you from your family and friends
> Tries to keep you from doing something you wanted to do
> Is angry if you pay too much attention to someone or something else (children, friends, school, etc.)
> Withholds approval, appreciation or affection
> Humiliates you
> Becomes angry if meals or housework are not done to his/her liking
> Makes contradictory demands
> Does not include you in important decisions
> Does not allow you to sleep
> Repeatedly harasses you about things you did in the past
> Takes away car keys, money or credit cards
> Threatens to leave or tells you to leave.
> Checks up on you (listens to your phone calls, looks at phone bills, checks the mileage on the car, etc.)
> Tells people you suffer from a mental illness
> Threatens to commit suicide
> Interferes with your work or school (provokes a fight in the morning, calls to harass you at work, etc.)
> Minimizes or denies hurtful actions
> Breaks dates and cancels plans without reason
> Uses loud or intimidating tone of voice
> Comes home at late hours refusing an explanation


No, I am not abused. I am cherished.


----------



## turnera

Then why do you act as though he is so much smarter or right than you?


----------



## Jamison

jld said:


> I think dh could keep anything from me. He just does not have that need to share.


Could be he doesn't have the need, or it could be he doesn't want to for various reasons. 

You're transparent, hes not, for whatever reason(s) seems kinda one sided to me. Just a thought.


----------



## joe kidd

jld said:


> Thanks for allowing the possibility of compassion at some point, Joe. Were you angry at the beginning of this thread yesterday? Somehow I got that feeling.


No. Just stating what I felt at the time I discovered mine was having an affair. Lets just say compassion was not on the top 100 list of what I was feeling toward her.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Then why do you act as though he is so much smarter or right than you?


You are really a nice lady, turnera. I have read your posts and I respect you.

He just is. I have been told so many times on these boards that I am naive or innocent or childlike, or similar things in not so nice a way. Dh is not. He is much more in tune with how the world is than I am. I was shocked that people would not have compassion for waywards. I am shocked by other things, unkind things, I read here. But I don't know that dh would be as shocked. So I like to rely on his judgment.

And he has more education, and a job that I could never have. We all look up to him here. 

He is not perfect though. I am always so surprised when he is wrong or does not know something. And many times he has told me, "I am not a perfect man."


----------



## jld

joe kidd said:


> No. Just stating what I felt at the time I discovered mine was having an affair. Lets just say compassion was not on the top 100 list of what I was feeling toward her.


Were you angry? Hurt? Violent? I don't mean to make you relive the pain, but we could learn from your experience.


----------



## joe kidd

jld said:


> Were you angry? Hurt? Violent? I don't mean to make you relive the pain, but we could learn from your experience.


All of them. Didn't hit her though if that's what you mean by violent. Did destroy some things though. Let's just say I didn't handle it well.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> That is really sweet, SA, that your husband just has to tell you things. *I think dh could keep anything from me*. He just does not have that need to share. I have it enough for both of us, lol!


 You know these are just our opinions... and we are learning about you, and could just be that he is more naturally quiet, you've already shared he is not geared emotional much at all..being the INTP.... why he is so stable.. but darn, that would bother the crap out of me ! Especially with his work schedule , not being home weeks at a time....

Oh goodness jld.. you really do TRUST... Don't think I could do that without a truck load of his sharing more of his life when he is away.. you know with his WANTING TO SHARE...not your trying to pry it out of him... 

Just my thoughts... You do sound so very innocent in many ways.


----------



## jld

joe kidd said:


> All of them. Didn't hit her though if that's what you mean by violent. Did destroy some things though. Let's just say I didn't handle it well.


Sorry about that. No, I just meant did you feel violent. I have read that some men feel like killing their wives, or the OM.

It is probably better to get the anger out than keep it in.

Have you forgiven her now?


----------



## Hope1964

joe kidd said:


> Look. If a wayward is truly sorry and sees the error of their ways then compassion will come their way at some point. As was said mistakes get made . That being said, I have none for cake eating, blame shifting waywards who show no remorse or worse yet fake it.



:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

My husband spent literally years - probably two of them - proving to me that he was worth it before I started to feel compassion. Until then, once I decided to R with him, I was very guarded. I had to work really hard to overcome my triggers, and therefore so did he. He had to work on both himself and on the marriage, and on me. So he did have it harder than I did, because I was certainly not going to do any work on HIM. But that's what you get when you cheat. You HAVE to do the lions portion of the work if you want to R. And I mean R, not just staying married. Because WAY too many couples don't truly R, they just stay married. It was my husband's dogged determination to work with me that finally tipped the scales so that I could actually start seeing things from his perspective.

Forgiveness is something totally different though. Forgiveness is something you do for yourself. I don't think I will ever reach a point where I tell my husband that I am 'over' what he did and that I am healed. I will never - NEVER - forget what he did and I will never tell him 'it's ok' because it never will be ok. But I can choose to let what I feel flow through me and dissipate, and not want to rip his head off for something he did in the past. At first it's a conscious decision to do so, but after a while it starts to happen automatically.


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> You know these are just our opinions... and we are learning about you, and could just be that he is more naturally quiet, you've already shared he is not geared emotional much at all..being the INTP.... why he is so stable.. but darn, that would bother the crap out of me ! Especially with his work schedule and not being home for weeks at a time....
> 
> Oh goodness jld.. you really do TRUST... Don't think I could do that without a truck load of his sharing more of his life when he is away..
> 
> Just my thoughts... You do sound so very innocent in many ways.


Yes, I have total trust. I just have total trust. But I couldn't if he had not, and did not still, earn it. And I tell him when I am upset with him.

But I cannot relate at all to tracking devices, or the silent treatment, or having to read 6 marriage books just to get along, or any of that. I feel like a foreigner on these boards sometimes. My marriage is just not like that at all.


----------



## jld

You seemed so angry yesterday, Hope. Do you want to talk about it?


----------



## Hope1964

I wasn't angry yesterday - I do tend to come across that way when I have a strong opinion  I'm content just to answer questions - I'm pretty much past needing to talk about my husbands cheating ad nauseum. Except to try to straighten out people who don't seem to 'get it'


----------



## jld

Hope1964 said:


> I wasn't angry yesterday - I do tend to come across that way when I have a strong opinion  I'm content just to answer questions - I'm pretty much past needing to talk about my husbands cheating ad nauseum. Except to try to straighten out people who don't seem to 'get it'


Could you elaborate on that last point, please? Feel free to ignore, if it will upset you. Just trying to learn here.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: Some compassion for waywards*



2ntnuf said:


> jld,
> 
> If betrayed spouses could be perfectly honest, or if you read enough threads, you would know that the WS is never truly forgiven. It's impossible to completely forgive the infidelity when the BS triggers at certain things throughout the rest of their lives.
> 
> Is taking them back then, a sign of true and complete forgiveness, or just a sign of willingness to try to forgive as much as humanly possible and move forward with the love that they still have inside, in spite of the infidelity and triggers?


Then for all of the claims of 'minimizing' and 'denial' that are leveled at waywards, this is a pretty strong indication that a betrayed hasn't 'dealt' with it.

Forgiveness IS for the benefit and well-being of the betrayed, not the betrayor.

Thats why it's pointless to grant it if the infidelity is going to haunt you, or be used as a weapon against your spouse.

And yes, it is absolutely possible to truly forgive and move on.

Will you remember and behave differently as a result when faced with particular circumstances? Will you be more aware? I certainly hope so, but that needn't impair your ability to forgive.


----------



## jld

Deejo said:


> Then for all of the claims of 'minimizing' and 'denial' that are leveled at waywards, this is a pretty strong indication that a betrayed hasn't 'dealt' with it.
> 
> Forgiveness IS for the benefit and well-being of the betrayed, not the betrayor.
> 
> Thats why it's pointless to grant it if the infidelity is going to haunt you, or be used as a weapon against your spouse.
> 
> And yes, it is absolutely possible to truly forgive and move on.
> 
> Will you remember and behave differently as a result when faced with particular circumstances? Will you be more aware? I certainly hope so, but that needn't impair your ability to forgive.


Were you a BS or WS, Deejo?


----------



## Hope1964

jld said:


> Could you elaborate on that last point, please? Feel free to ignore, if it will upset you. Just trying to learn here.


What upsets me is when WS's post on here about how they want to stay married, yet they refuse to admit to what they've done, or to give up the AP, or they refuse to do the heavy lifting or help the BS heal or anything else in the long list of what they need to do if they want to be truly remorseful. Then there are the BS's who think they can beg their WS to reform and they think they will. Most BS's initial reaction is to blame themselves and try to fix everything and pretend it never happened - to rugsweep. And then there are the people who come into CWI with all kinds of advice for everyone, yet they have never experienced it themselves. The title of this thread, for example. As soon as I read it, I knew you'd never experienced betrayal. At least you seem to be learning as you go along. We've had a plethora (I love that word) of people come and tell us all how to feel and what to do and give us heck because of the things we tell newbies, or just because we've chosen to R. That last one really burns my butt. So I've had to apply some of what I've learned in the process of being betrayed, and take a step back when this stuff upsets me.

You've not seen me REALLY upset on here.


----------



## jld

RH, if you are still reading this . . . May I ask, have you forgiven yourself?


----------



## Hope1964

Deejo said:


> Forgiveness IS for the benefit and well-being of the betrayed, not the betrayor.
> 
> Thats why it's pointless to grant it if the infidelity is going to haunt you, or be used as a weapon against your spouse.
> 
> And yes, it is absolutely possible to truly forgive and move on.


:iagree:

Forgive and forget are two separate things.


----------



## jld

Hope1964 said:


> What upsets me is when WS's post on here about how they want to stay married, yet they refuse to admit to what they've done, or to give up the AP, or they refuse to do the heavy lifting or help the BS heal or anything else in the long list of what they need to do if they want to be truly remorseful. Then there are the BS's who think they can beg their WS to reform and they think they will. Most BS's initial reaction is to blame themselves and try to fix everything and pretend it never happened - to rugsweep. And then there are the people who come into CWI with all kinds of advice for everyone, yet they have never experienced it themselves. The title of this thread, for example. As soon as I read it, I knew you'd never experienced betrayal. At least you seem to be learning as you go along. We've had a plethora (I love that word) of people come and tell us all how to feel and what to do and give us heck because of the things we tell newbies, or just because we've chosen to R. That last one really burns my butt. So I've had to apply some of what I've learned in the process of being betrayed, and take a step back when this stuff upsets me.
> 
> You've not seen me REALLY upset on here.


Thanks for sharing that, Hope. I really did not know the fire that was going to hit me yesterday. And I really did mean well. And I think some people did not read all the posts, because some of it was covered in the middle of the thread.

One gal pm'd me with a Welcome to TAM message, lol. She said the same thing had happened to her when she first started here.

There is a lady here who has been married a quarter of the time I have and has one child. Yet she regularly is offering me advice on marriage and childrearing. It kind of makes me smile. But at the same time, it is good to listen because hey, I can always learn something new. 

Thanks again for taking the time to explain. That helps me understand you better.


----------



## jld

Hope1964 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Forgive and forget are two separate things.


Yeah, you will never forget. 

Someone said once, "The bloom is off the rose." Do you feel that way, Hope?


----------



## Hope1964

Actually, I don't, not any more, because we've moved pretty far past it and have made a bunch of new memories. I guess you could say the rose that bloomed when we got married died a sudden death on D day, but we have a new one now and it's pretty healthy.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Hope1964 said:


> What upsets me is when WS's post on here about how they want to stay married, yet they refuse to admit to what they've done, or to give up the AP, or they refuse to do the heavy lifting or help the BS heal or anything else in the long list of what they need to do if they want to be truly remorseful. Then there are the BS's who think they can beg their WS to reform and they think they will. Most BS's initial reaction is to blame themselves and try to fix everything and pretend it never happened - to rugsweep.


To be fair, being a WS in a place like this is very difficult and may have more defences up than people would like. I've seen a few get ripped to shreds in, what I feel, was unnecessary ways. The goal shouldn't be to kick them down but to help them get up. I see a lot of both. Many people seem to just want to get their own anger out on someone so by the time someone does come around with actual advice they have been so beaten down it doesn't come through as it should. 

I have seen a lot of "if you don't do it exactly this way then you're a horrible person and will fail" I think every situation is too different to say that there is only 1 way to feel and act when you are a WS. You just have to do what is right for your situation and relationship. To be honest, I am glad my BS didn't go on TAM.


----------



## Deejo

jld said:


> Were you a BS or WS, Deejo?


Infidelity was not the reason my ex and I divorced. Lots of folks disagree with me, but I firmly believe that infidelity isn't the problem, it's the symptom. Nobody that I know or have ever spoken to that has chosen the path of infidelity did so because, 'they felt like it'. They felt disconnected, abandoned, neglected, abused, taken for granted, used, ignored, unloved, disrespected, you name it.

Ex and I were separated. In hindsight I can say that I was having an emotional affair at that time. I was desperately hurting and wanted someone to talk to. I wanted to save my marriage, that was what the talks were about. I also made my now ex-wife aware of what I was doing and who I was talking to. I didn't want to hide anything.

My ex chose to pursue a physcial affair and lie about it. I can honestly say, had she come out and told me about her decision, given that our marriage had already rotted down to the foundation, I wouldn't refer to her behavior as 'cheating'. But she told some whoppers ... right to my face.

We are both in a much better place and get along very well, which works out for our kids.

And yes, I forgave her.


----------



## Caribbean Man

I think we need to remember that forgiveness and compassion isn't something the victim " owes " the aggressor, in any circumstance.

And even though a prson forgives the aggressor there is still this business of penalties and restorative justice for the wrongs done.

It is not the right or entitlement of the aggressor to choose a penalty for their wrongs, they are at the mercy of the victim , in this case, the betrayed spouse.

Not only must Justice be done; it must also be _seen to be done_. 

It is not up to those of us unaffected to determine what form that justice must take because we don't know the depth of the hurt or betrayal that the victim felt.

Sometimes a betrayed victim is in no position emotionally to 
" move on ", and because of this, sometimes they are forced by circumstances ,to accept whatever " apology" the aggressor dishes out in the hope of getting their lives back on track , without holding them fully accountable for their infidelity.
Enter " rugsweeping."
And the betrayed spouse becomes a perpetual victim many tims over. They are forced by circumstance to live with the memories, whilst the aggressor " moves on " and doesn't even share in their pain, because they never took full responsibility nor were they made to face the consequences of their actions.


----------



## Hope1964

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> To be fair, being a WS in a place like this is very difficult and may have more defences up than people would like. I've seen a few get ripped to shreds in, what I feel, was unnecessary ways. The goal shouldn't be to kick them down but to help them get up. I see a lot of both. Many people seem to just want to get their own anger out on someone so by the time someone does come around with actual advice they have been so beaten down it doesn't come through as it should.
> 
> I have seen a lot of "if you don't do it exactly this way then you're a horrible person and will fail" I think every situation is too different to say that there is only 1 way to feel and act when you are a WS. You just have to do what is right for your situation and relationship. To be honest, I am glad my BS didn't go on TAM.


I've seen that too. I'm guilty of using 2x4's for sure. But I've also had WS's thank me later for being so hard on them because it literally woke them up. It depends entirely on the WS.


----------



## jld

Hope1964 said:


> Actually, I don't, not any more, because we've moved pretty far past it and have made a bunch of new memories. I guess you could say the rose that bloomed when we got married died a sudden death on D day, but we have a new one now and it's pretty healthy.


Hey, that's beautiful.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Deejo said:


> Infidelity was not the reason my ex and I divorced. Lots of folks disagree with me, but I firmly believe that infidelity isn't the problem, it's the symptom. Nobody that I know or have ever spoken to that has chosen the path of infidelity did so because, 'they felt like it'. They felt disconnected, abandoned, neglected, abused, taken for granted, used, ignored, unloved, disrespected, you name it.


This is very much how my BS feels which is why I think he was able to understand his part in it and we could learn from it and move passed it. Spending all the time focusing on the act of the A as the problem and "rug-sweeping" the other issues going on could be just as problematic IMO.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> To be fair, being a WS in a place like this is very difficult and may have more defences up than people would like. I've seen a few get ripped to shreds in, what I feel, was unnecessary ways. The goal shouldn't be to kick them down but to help them get up. I see a lot of both. Many people seem to just want to get their own anger out on someone so by the time someone does come around with actual advice they have been so beaten down it doesn't come through as it should.
> 
> I have seen a lot of "if you don't do it exactly this way then you're a horrible person and will fail" I think every situation is too different to say that there is only 1 way to feel and act when you are a WS. You just have to do what is right for your situation and relationship. To be honest, I am glad my BS didn't go on TAM.


I see that, too, SGC. Again, you are so brave to come here and defend the WS. Nobody is perfect.


----------



## jld

Deejo said:


> Infidelity was not the reason my ex and I divorced. Lots of folks disagree with me, but I firmly believe that infidelity isn't the problem, it's the symptom. Nobody that I know or have ever spoken to that has chosen the path of infidelity did so because, 'they felt like it'. They felt disconnected, abandoned, neglected, abused, taken for granted, used, ignored, unloved, disrespected, you name it.
> 
> Ex and I were separated. In hindsight I can say that I was having an emotional affair at that time. I was desperately hurting and wanted someone to talk to. I wanted to save my marriage, that was what the talks were about. I also made my now ex-wife aware of what I was doing and who I was talking to. I didn't want to hide anything.
> 
> My ex chose to pursue a physcial affair and lie about it. I can honestly say, had she come out and told me about her decision, given that our marriage had already rotted down to the foundation, I wouldn't refer to her behavior as 'cheating'. But she told some whoppers ... right to my face.
> 
> We are both in a much better place and get along very well, which works out for our kids.
> 
> And yes, I forgave her.


You sound really mature about the whole thing, Deejo.

The lying is awful, isn't it? I think it's the worst thing we can do in any situation. It destroys everything.

And good for you for forgiving her.


----------



## jld

Deejo said:


> Infidelity was not the reason my ex and I divorced. Lots of folks disagree with me, but I firmly believe that infidelity isn't the problem, it's the symptom. Nobody that I know or have ever spoken to that has chosen the path of infidelity did so because, 'they felt like it'. They felt disconnected, abandoned, neglected, abused, taken for granted, used, ignored, unloved, disrespected, you name it.


:iagree:


----------



## jld

Hope1964 said:


> I've seen that too. I'm guilty of using 2x4's for sure. But I've also had WS's thank me later for being so hard on them because it literally woke them up. It depends entirely on the WS.


Oh, I would not have compassion without the other person having complete remorse and transparency. That is essential to restoring the relationship, I am sure.


----------



## jld

Caribbean Man said:


> I think we need to remember that forgiveness and compassion isn't something the victim " owes " the aggressor, in any circumstance.
> 
> And even though a prson forgives the aggressor there is still this business of penalties and restorative justice for the wrongs done.
> 
> It is not the right or entitlement of the aggressor to choose a penalty for their wrongs, they are at the mercy of the victim , in this case, the betrayed spouse.
> 
> Not only must Justice be done; it must also be _seen to be done_.
> 
> It is not up to those of us unaffected to determine what form that justice must take because we don't know the depth of the hurt or betrayal that the victim felt.
> 
> Sometimes a betrayed victim is in no position emotionally to
> " move on ", and because of this, sometimes they are forced by circumstances ,to accept whatever " apology" the aggressor dishes out in the hope of getting their lives back on track , without holding them fully accountable for their infidelity.
> Enter " rugsweeping."
> And the betrayed spouse becomes a perpetual victim many tims over. They are forced by circumstance to live with the memories, whilst the aggressor " moves on " and doesn't even share in their pain, because they never took full responsibility nor were they made to face the consequences of their actions.


The aggressor must be fully repentant and transparent. And even then, it may be better to divorce.

The victim forgives for himself, not for her. It is so he can move on.

And really, would you like to be the aggressor, and hate yourself for the rest of your life? Surely in the heart of their heart, the aggressor feels shame. I hope so, anyway.


----------



## Rowan

Deejo said:


> Nobody that I know or have ever spoken to that has chosen the path of infidelity did so because, 'they felt like it'. They felt disconnected, abandoned, neglected, abused, taken for granted, used, ignored, unloved, disrespected, you name it.


But let me assure you that there are WS's who feel "abandoned, neglected, abused, taken for granted, used, ignored, unloved, disrespected, you name it" because of something that is broken or damaged _within themselves_, rather than anything their BS has or has not done. There really are people for whom nothing their BS could ever have done or said or given would have been enough to meet whatever need they claim pushed them outside their marriage. They probably aren't the majority of cheaters, but they are out there. Some people are simply damaged.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> I think it's time for some compassion for waywards.
> 
> Honestly, I do not even like the term wayward. Maybe the "wayward" felt betrayed in some way, too.
> 
> I just think humans are weak, and probably in desperate need of compassion and understanding.
> 
> And, yes, some firm boundaries and definite consequences.
> 
> But do they have to wear the scarlet letter forever?


JLD, this is a pro marriage forum with a MUCH higher percentage of BS''s than WS's in its membership.

Many of these BS's have dealt with trickle truthing, blameshifting and gas lighting in their own environment and can't stand that behavior. 

In my opinion, the majority of responses a WS gets is in direct relation to their attitude. If a WS comes on here and exhibits trickle truth, blameshifting and/or gaslighting (and the other numerous counter-productive behaviors), they're not going to receive any compassion or understanding, and frankly they don't deserve it.

There's been MANY times a WS comes here taking full responsibility (or at least open to taking responsibility), shows true remorse, doesn't do the negative behaviors stated above. THESE WS's end up being welcomed into the TAM community with welcome, understanding and compassionate arms.

So maybe, before we assign blame to the community, WS's need to prepare themselves to come here with the right attitude and behaviors. The problem is if they had that...they may not be a WS.

Aside from that, yes there are some jaded BS's who, no matter the situation, will spew venom at ANY WS they see. But they are the minority.


----------



## jld

Rowan said:


> But let me assure you that there are WS's who feel "abandoned, neglected, abused, taken for granted, used, ignored, unloved, disrespected, you name it" because of something that is broken or damaged _within themselves_, rather than anything their BS has or has not done. There really are people for whom nothing their BS could ever have done or said or given would have been enough to meet whatever need they claim pushed them outside their marriage. They probably aren't the majority of cheaters, but they are out there. Some people are simply damaged.


But then wouldn't it be better to have transparency from the beginning of marriage, so that the BS could at least understand the WS better, thus perhaps avoiding trouble?


----------



## 1812overture

Hope1964 said:


> And then there are the people who come into CWI with all kinds of advice for everyone, yet they have never experienced it themselves.


I'm here for two reasons: 1) I'm in a sexless marriage (and it has other problems, which we don't seem to be able to fix and may have caused and are now exacerbated by the lack of sex) and the Sex in Marriage forums helps on that, but CWI helps me understand that people go through worse and can persevere/cope/thrive over time. I put you in the thrive category.

2) I have family and friends who have been cheated on by spouses, and I want to know how to support them.

I sure hope I don't give advice or tell people how to feel.




Hope1964 said:


> What upsets me is when WS's post on here about how they want to stay married, yet they refuse to admit to what they've done, or to give up the AP


A friend, now divorced, has an ex who is still seeing (one of?) the guy she had an affair with. He has lost friends, and found, from some, zero support at his lowest points. I have no compassion for his ex-wife, and I would like to cause her grief, but she seems to be soul-less, so I don't know that I can.





SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I'm not talking about compassion as in "I'm so sorry you went through that honey, it must have felt terrible" Just the basic- don't treat them like crap or call them names or actively seek out to hurt them because they are still a human -kind of compassion.


Because my connection with my friend's ex-wife is via drop-off/pick-up from play dates and youth sports, I have to be civil -- the kids are around. But I would like to treat her like crap and call her names. She deserves it. As it is, maybe knowing that someone in the circle knows and takes her husband's side is a bit of an irritant for her. I have no compassion for her, and she deserves none, though she gets a bunch from her girlfriends, who supported her lies.

Most importantly, though, my buddy has to move on and get past his pain and anger. I can't help in that by fueling his hatred. So that's another reason I have to be civil. I have limited interactions with his ex, as does he. If I model limited, detached behavior, maybe he can do more of it, too.


----------



## Rowan

jld said:


> But then wouldn't it be better to have transparency from the beginning of marriage, so that the BS could at least understand the WS better, thus perhaps avoiding trouble?


I'm not sure what you're asking here.

Would it be better to know upfront that your spouse is the sort of damaged it takes to become a serial cheater? Sure, that would be great. But people with emotional problems don't come with warning labels or instruction manuals, and those inclined to be serial cheaters don't announce themselves in good faith so you know what you're getting beforehand. I'm sure many of them don't even know themselves.


----------



## jld

Rowan said:


> I'm not sure what you're asking here.
> 
> Would it be better to know upfront that your spouse is the sort of damaged it takes to become a serial cheater? Sure, that would be great. But people with emotional problems don't come with warning labels or instruction manuals, and those inclined to be serial cheaters don't announce themselves in good faith so you know what you're getting beforehand. I'm sure many of them don't even know themselves.


If your wife had felt comfortable telling you everything in her heart from the beginning, including all the damaged parts, wouldn't that have been helpful to you? I am assuming you think marriage is a partnership, and each partner helps the other with their weaknesses. Or is that not how you see it?


----------



## jld

1812, I would really encourage you to support your friend, rather than try to punish his ex.

If you want to hurt/help her, how about saying how you feel to her, not with names or profanities, but something like, "I am so disappointed to hear how you have treated your husband. I have heard that you have done xxx. I have seen him crying and I know how broken he is. Is that the kind of woman you want to be? Is that really the person that you are?"

Anything that cuts to the heart, namely telling the truth, is going to be more hurtful than some name or bad word.

I know you are sad for your friend, but it is really his problem. You cannot own it for him. He has to take responsibility for his life, and how he deals with her. Isn't that part of being a man?


----------



## ReformedHubby

Deejo said:


> Infidelity was not the reason my ex and I divorced. Lots of folks disagree with me, but I firmly believe that infidelity isn't the problem, it's the symptom. Nobody that I know or have ever spoken to that has chosen the path of infidelity did so because, 'they felt like it'. They felt disconnected, abandoned, neglected, abused, taken for granted, used, ignored, unloved, disrespected, you name it.


You're a good man Deejo which is probably why you think that everybody needs a reason to cheat. I have different perspective. In life people with similar interests and motives kind of clump together. I used to hang around a lot of other wayward men. Most didn't need a reason to cheat. We were pretty much all happily married. In fact had you accused me of not loving my wife back then I would've gotten violently angry. 

I wouldn't say I was a player, more of a flirtatious opportunist that was always looking. If you are literally always open to it (especially when drinking) you will find yourself in trouble. My wife didn't do anything to push me away. She has never shown me anything but love.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

From the standpoint of whether compassion should or shouldn't be shown to a WS, we have to keep in mind that we are talking about two different situations here from what a TAM poster will see. 

On one hand those of us who see a WS posting on TAM, and we have no relationship whatsoever with said WS, should be more inclined to show a level of compassion/understanding to this WS seeking help. If the goal of the forum is to help people strengthen their marriages - or even help them become better marriage partners in the future - you can't brand them with the scarlet letter and dismiss them out of hand as people unworthy of being here. That's wrong.

On the other hand, it is unfair of a BS to be guilted into feeling compassion for his/her WS. The forgiveness and compassion should be only given at the whim of the BS. Of course, the BS will be inclined to show more empathy if he/she sees the their WS showing true remorse. I do think granting forgiveness, regardless of whether the WS is remorseful or not, is in the best interest of the BS in the long term. As others stated, granting forgiveness is more for YOU so that you can move on with your life without feeling tethered to an unrepentant WS for the rest of your life. Again, only on the timetable of the BS who has to first fully process his/her own raw emotions first before he/she can even begin to start understanding why it happened.

JMHO.


----------



## doubletrouble

jld said:


> Hawx20, you seem like a very nice man. You really are trying to forgive her, trying to move past it.
> 
> But if your wife were my daughter, I would still tell her to get a divorce. * I just would not want my daughter viewed that way all her life by her husband.* Just a mother's thoughts, I guess.


A mother's feelings towards her daughter notwithstanding, I see this as a very narrow view. What about the mother of the betrayed son? She doesn't want him to have to live with that either. Neither did the son. 

We have to live with the consequences of our choices. Your daughter, in this example, may not have learned a damned thing, and will go on to cheat her next relationship and the next. As the mother, maybe you missed out on opporunities to give her life lessons (not saying it's our parent's fault if we screw up, just theorizing). 

If your daughter did such a thing, it's not unfair to be viewed as someone who cheated on her husband. In life as adults, for comparison, when we commit a crime it stays on our record for the rest of our lives. Since infidelity isn't a crime written into modern statutes, it doesn't go on our legal record. It sure goes on our social or spiritual record though. 

Criminals can pay their debt to society in various ways. But the record remains. So in thinking you're being fair to your daughter, you're being fair at the expense of the victim, the son-in-law.


----------



## ReformedHubby

jld said:


> RH, if you are still reading this . . . May I ask, have you forgiven yourself?


The answer to that question is no. Its hard to explain but sometimes when my wife does something for special for me I actually feel guilty because I remember how badly I treated her. I deal with my guilt by working to be the best husband I can, to try and make up for the past.


----------



## jld

doubletrouble said:


> A mother's feelings towards her daughter notwithstanding, I see this as a very narrow view. What about the mother of the betrayed son? She doesn't want him to have to live with that either. Neither did the son.
> 
> We have to live with the consequences of our choices. Your daughter, in this example, may not have learned a damned thing, and will go on to cheat her next relationship and the next. As the mother, maybe you missed out on opporunities to give her life lessons (not saying it's our parent's fault if we screw up, just theorizing).
> 
> If your daughter did such a thing, it's not unfair to be viewed as someone who cheated on her husband. In life as adults, for comparison, when we commit a crime it stays on our record for the rest of our lives. Since infidelity isn't a crime written into modern statutes, it doesn't go on our legal record. It sure goes on our social or spiritual record though.
> 
> Criminals can pay their debt to society in various ways. But the record remains. So in thinking you're being fair to your daughter, you're being fair at the expense of the victim, the son-in-law.


But why would he want to be with her then, either? Wouldn't he want a fresh start, too, with someone who had not cheated on him?

People make mistakes. If things cannot be gotten past, if a fresh start cannot be declared, without the affair being held over someone's head, why would someone accepted to always be the bad person in the marriage?

Also, dt, I have four sons. I think dh and I would be pretty clear with them that if they cannot really look at why the affair happened, hold their wife responsible and accountable, and then forgive and move forward without, again, holding it over her head, better to release her and let someone else give her a fresh start.


----------



## NeverMore

Rowan said:


> But let me assure you that there are WS's who feel "abandoned, neglected, abused, taken for granted, used, ignored, unloved, disrespected, you name it" because of something that is broken or damaged _within themselves_, rather than anything their BS has or has not done. There really are people for whom nothing their BS could ever have done or said or given would have been enough to meet whatever need they claim pushed them outside their marriage. They probably aren't the majority of cheaters, but they are out there. Some people are simply damaged.


Exactly! Thanks for putting into words what I couldn't! This would be my STBXH to a tee. He has a character disorder. No matter what he will always feel like this.


----------



## NeverMore

jld said:


> If your wife had felt comfortable telling you everything in her heart from the beginning, including all the damaged parts, wouldn't that have been helpful to you? I am assuming you think marriage is a partnership, and each partner helps the other with their weaknesses. Or is that not how you see it?


Of course it would be helpful, but damaged people like this won't do that. They live on lies and manipulation most of all. They will NEVER be truly honest with you because they aren't even honest with themselves.


----------



## jld

ReformedHubby said:


> The answer to that question is no. Its hard to explain but sometimes when my wife does something for special for me I actually feel guilty because I remember how badly I treated her. I deal with my guilt by working to be the best husband I can, to try and make up for the past.


Well, you have a good conscience, RH. But I really wish that you could forgive yourself. It is hard to carry that load for ten years.

Your wife has forgiven you, correct? She seems very kind.


----------



## hawx20

jld said:


> Hawx20, you seem like a very nice man. You really are trying to forgive her, trying to move past it.
> 
> But if your wife were my daughter, I would still tell her to get a divorce. I just would not want my daughter viewed that way all her life by her husband. Just a mother's thoughts, I guess.


Her father was so upset with her once he found out. He didnt want to talk to her for a few weeks. Her mother thanked me for not losing my anger with her and for trying to work things out.

I dont mean to toot my own horn, but I know I am a good man and a great catch. Truth be told, if my daughter has a husband like me in the future, and she cheats on him, I'll be the first to scorn her. Hopefully I will have enough influence to show her how to love and not betray. 

Today is the 2 month anniversary of my dday so its still very early for us. I dont know how I will view her 1, 5, or 10 years from now. A lot depends on her actions.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> But why would he want to be with her then, either? Wouldn't he want a fresh start, too, with someone who had not cheated on him?
> 
> People make mistakes. If things cannot be gotten past, if a fresh start cannot be declared, without the affair being held over someone's head, why would someone accepted to always be the bad person in the marriage?
> 
> Also, dt, I have four sons. I think dh and I would be pretty clear with them that if they cannot really look at why the affair happened, hold their wife responsible and accountable, and then forgive and move forward without, again, holding it over her head, better to release her and let someone else give her a fresh start.


JLD, you, and others who share your view, many times talk about "not holding it over the WS's head". 

The problem with that stance is you're not doing exactly what you're asking others to do. You want people to be more reserved in their "negative" attitude towards WS's because each situation is different and we don't know everything that the WS went through, etc etc (I'm paraphrasing some other posts).

The problem is "holding it over someone's head" might actually be a BS dealing with triggers or the WS being unsympathetic and behaving in ways that they did before their affair in the first place, causing more triggers or worse (even if they're "innocent"). 

Now there are BS's who will want to stay married but at the same time want to give their WS the same amount of pain their WS gave them, this is "holding it over their head". This is also an attitude that can be seen in other areas of a marriage, perpetrated by non WS/BS couples even. It's the revenge a wrong perception.

But how do you determine which one is which. Are you saying it's not okay for a BS to has a trigger happen a couple years down the road and have that trigger affect how they treat their WS for the moment? Sorry but that's not fair.


----------



## turnera

Dad&Hubby said:


> In my opinion, the majority of responses a WS gets is in direct relation to their attitude. If a WS comes on here and exhibits trickle truth, blameshifting and/or gaslighting (and the other numerous counter-productive behaviors), they're not going to receive any compassion or understanding, and frankly they don't deserve it. There's been MANY times a WS comes here taking full responsibility (or at least open to taking responsibility), shows true remorse, doesn't do the negative behaviors stated above. THESE WS's end up being welcomed into the TAM community with welcome, understanding and compassionate arms.


Exactly.



Dad&Hubby said:


> So maybe, before we assign blame to the community, WS's need to prepare themselves to come here with the right attitude and behaviors. The problem is if they had that...they may not be a WS.


Or they are not a FORMER WS; just one who lost their cake.


----------



## Rowan

jld said:


> If your wife had felt comfortable telling you everything in her heart from the beginning, including all the damaged parts, wouldn't that have been helpful to you? I am assuming you think marriage is a partnership, and each partner helps the other with their weaknesses. Or is that not how you see it?


I'm female, so we're talking about my serial cheating ex-husband. 

If my husband had been the sort of man to understand himself well enough to be open, honest, emotionally available, and have good boundaries, he would not have been a serial cheater. I was more than willing to help him with his weaknesses. The problem is that he doesn't see his weaknesses. He doesn't think he did anything particularly wrong, and isn't particularly sorry about it. He's, to this day, mostly upset that I found out and divorced him. He blames me for leaving him over something he considers minor. The type of sharing you describe requires a level of self-awareness and honesty of which he has, so far, not been capable.

And, as I said earlier on this thread. I do feel compassion for him. I don't hate him, I wish him well, I hope he one day becomes someone who is capable of a real relationship. I'm simply entirely unwilling to allow him to continue to negatively impact my life.


----------



## joe kidd

Case in point.....http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...159689-i-know-not-going-go-over-well-but.html


----------



## ScarletBegonias

joe kidd said:


> Case in point.....http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...159689-i-know-not-going-go-over-well-but.html


you beat me to it


----------



## Hope1964

ScarletBegonias said:


> you beat me to it


And me!


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

joe kidd said:


> Case in point.....http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...159689-i-know-not-going-go-over-well-but.html


I don't know, I read that and think 
Wow, she messed up. That is going to bite her in the ass and make all the problems worse in the long run. I can relate to her anger and revenge desires and now this act of being fine with it (you tell yourself that to feel better) and I feel bad that soon enough it will all come crashing down on her and all the pain she did feel will be magnified. I feel bad that she felt that going from one person who she felt used her to another who used her was any kind of solution to her problem and I feel bad about the fact that she was having marital problems in the first place. I feel all those things along with feeling bad for her BS. 

I don't think, Wow, she's a horrible, terrible slvt and I hope she gets hit by a bus, goes to hell and then gets hit by a bus there too! 

See, compassion


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

samyeagar said:


> The real world knee jerk reaction to a woman cheating is what did her husband do or not do to make her do it.


True, when a woman cheats a lot of people ask what the man did to cause it, but women often do that to themselves... blaming themselves when a man cheats. So they probably don't need the world to blame them too.


----------



## jld

hawx20 said:


> Her father was so upset with her once he found out. He didnt want to talk to her for a few weeks. Her mother thanked me for not losing my anger with her and for trying to work things out.
> 
> I dont mean to toot my own horn, but I know I am a good man and a great catch. Truth be told, if my daughter has a husband like me in the future, and she cheats on him, I'll be the first to scorn her. Hopefully I will have enough influence to show her how to love and not betray.
> 
> Today is the 2 month anniversary of my dday so its still very early for us. I dont know how I will view her 1, 5, or 10 years from now. A lot depends on her actions.


I just don't think I could scorn my child. I can tell them exactly what I think of what they have done, but I love my child unconditionally. 

It's funny, I was just sitting on dh's lap a while ago, and he was holding me, and he remarked that I love him unconditionally. I was surprised to hear that, because while I know he loves me unconditionally, I didn't realize he felt that from me, too. Maybe I could get over an affair if he did that. It just seems surreal to me, but maybe I could.

You sound like a very good man, and your wife is very lucky. Hold her feet to the fire. She should be very repentant and really begging for forgiveness. I can only imagine how my husband would deal with me if I had an affair. I don't even want to think about that. I know there would be some harshness, but I think ultimately there would be forgiveness and true restoration. But I sure don't want to find out.

Best of luck, hawx20.


----------



## jld

Dad&Hubby said:


> JLD, you, and others who share your view, many times talk about "not holding it over the WS's head".
> 
> The problem with that stance is you're not doing exactly what you're asking others to do. You want people to be more reserved in their "negative" attitude towards WS's because each situation is different and we don't know everything that the WS went through, etc etc (I'm paraphrasing some other posts).
> 
> The problem is "holding it over someone's head" might actually be a BS dealing with triggers or the WS being unsympathetic and behaving in ways that they did before their affair in the first place, causing more triggers or worse (even if they're "innocent").
> 
> Now there are BS's who will want to stay married but at the same time want to give their WS the same amount of pain their WS gave them, this is "holding it over their head". This is also an attitude that can be seen in other areas of a marriage, perpetrated by non WS/BS couples even. It's the revenge a wrong perception.
> 
> But how do you determine which one is which. Are you saying it's not okay for a BS to has a trigger happen a couple years down the road and have that trigger affect how they treat their WS for the moment? Sorry but that's not fair.


I was just asking for less condemnation of waywards. I know some on here and they are really sweet. It pains me that some are still judging them.

I am not talking about waywards who have not repented. Do I really strike you that way? Have you read some of my other threads?

It's like a felon who has served prison time. Once they get out, should they wear a red F all their lives? Is it ever okay to just see them as a person again?

Are we communicating here, or have I missed the question?


----------



## jld

Rowan said:


> I'm female, so we're talking about my serial cheating ex-husband.
> 
> If my husband had been the sort of man to understand himself well enough to be open, honest, emotionally available, and have good boundaries, he would not have been a serial cheater. I was more than willing to help him with his weaknesses. The problem is that he doesn't see his weaknesses. He doesn't think he did anything particularly wrong, and isn't particularly sorry about it. He's, to this day, mostly upset that I found out and divorced him. He blames me for leaving him over something he considers minor. The type of sharing you describe requires a level of self-awareness and honesty of which he has, so far, not been capable.
> 
> And, as I said earlier on this thread. I do feel compassion for him. I don't hate him, I wish him well, I hope he one day becomes someone who is capable of a real relationship. I'm simply entirely unwilling to allow him to continue to negatively impact my life.


Rowan, I am so, so, so glad he is out of your life. Good riddance!

There are so many different situations, I think. I had one in mind and should have expressed that more clearly.

Are you with a new man now? If you are, I hope he treats you wonderfully!


----------



## TiggyBlue

jld said:


> It's like a felon who has served prison time. Once they get out, should they wear a red F all their lives? Is it ever okay to just see them as a person again?
> 
> Are we communicating here, or have I missed the question?


Depends who it is and the damage that was caused, I'm pretty much with SA it really depends on the circumstances.


----------



## doubletrouble

jld said:


> But why would he want to be with her then, either? Wouldn't he want a fresh start, too, with someone who had not cheated on him?
> 
> People make mistakes. If things cannot be gotten past, if a fresh start cannot be declared, without the affair being held over someone's head, why would someone accepted to always be the bad person in the marriage?
> 
> Also, dt, I have four sons. I think dh and I would be pretty clear with them that if they cannot really look at why the affair happened, hold their wife responsible and accountable, and then forgive and move forward without, again, holding it over her head, better to release her and let someone else give her a fresh start.


He stays because he loves her, has invested in her, wants to be with her. We all deal with pain differently. My W strayed and I am still with her. Do I berate her every day? No. Do I get triggers and mind movies, three years after they did the deed? Yup. Although I only got a confession less than a year ago. Do I think this will affect our lives going forward? Sure, how can it not? Do I think she should wear a scarlet letter over her head the rest of her life? No. I would never tell the grandkids (if God blesses us with them) for example; I would never discuss it outside our family any more (W, D and I). But it happened, the past will never change, and I still love her. She needs that love and so do I. 



jld said:


> I just don't think I could scorn my child. I can tell them exactly what I think of what they have done, but I love my child unconditionally.
> 
> It's funny, I was just sitting on dh's lap a while ago, and he was holding me, and he remarked that I love him unconditionally. I was surprised to hear that, because while I know he loves me unconditionally,* I didn't realize he felt that from me, too. Maybe I could get over an affair if he did that. It just seems surreal to me, but maybe I could.*
> 
> You sound like a very good man, and your wife is very lucky. Hold her feet to the fire. She should be very repentant and really begging for forgiveness. * I can only imagine how my husband would deal with me if I had an affair. I don't even want to think about that. I know there would be some harshness, but I think ultimately there would be forgiveness and true restoration. * But I sure don't want to find out.
> 
> Best of luck, hawx20.


These statements about if you or your H had an affair are hypothetical. They don't represent your life. I am positive that you love your husband (although I don't believe humans have unconditional love, but that's another discussion). But I know, and I think you do too, that if either of you strayed, it would change your marriage, and you would never forget. Look at your love today, and imagine if it were harmed by your husband. You would still love that man, and want to fix it. But you also would never, ever forget.


----------



## jld

You're right, dt. I don't ever want to hurt dh like that. It would be hurting myself too. I would never get over the shame. And I am sure I would not feel worthy of him. Even thinking about it feels awful.


----------



## doubletrouble

W has often said she doesn't feel worthy of me, as well. It may sound odd, but I prop her up when she says that. Even though it was her poor choices that put us there.


----------



## trey69

When I think of unconditional love, I think of parent/child unconditional love. Or even unconditional love for a pet, but
when it comes to unconditional love between man and wife I'm not so sure about that. But that's just me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Correct. There's no place for unconditional love in a marriage. You BOTH owe it to each other to continuously earn the respect, care, and love of your spouse. If the other doesn't keep up their end of the bargain, they're not entitled to that level of respect and giving.


----------



## doubletrouble

trey69 said:


> When I think of unconditional love, I think of parent/child unconditional love. Or even unconditional love for a pet, but
> when it comes to unconditional love between man and wife I'm not so sure about that. But that's just me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The reason I say that is if there are no conditions, boundaries, expectations, vows, promises etc., then there's unconditional love. Otherwise, we want to be as unconditional as we can be, but we're just not.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

turnera said:


> *Correct. There's no place for unconditional love in a marriage. You BOTH owe it to each other to continuously earn the respect, care, and love of your spouse. If the other doesn't keep up their end of the bargain, they're not entitled to that level of respect and giving.*












I am *not* an Unconditional Lover.... A thread on that discussion..... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ve-unconditional-love-what-does-mean-you.html

This explains a lot - in regards to Marital Love...

What's Wrong with Unconditional Love (Part 1) Marriage Builders


----------



## Caribbean Man

turnera said:


> Correct. *There's no place for unconditional love in a marriage. You BOTH owe it to each other to continuously earn the respect, care, and love of your spouse. If the other doesn't keep up their end of the bargain, they're not entitled to that level of respect and giving.*


:iagree:
Good thing CM didn't say it.
They say he only see's black & white! [ lol :rofl: ]


----------



## doubletrouble

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> Good thing CM didn't say it.
> They say he only see's black & white! [ lol :rofl: ]


CM! The nerve! :lol:


----------



## soulpotato

SimplyAmorous said:


> Speaking of "Pit in my Stomach".. I hardly ever venture in that section of TAM but I ran across this thread of his *>> *
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/21172-never-say-never.html
> 
> .. explaining in detail the whole role of hormones, naming them specifically in his opening post ... he said
> 
> ....I thought it was one of the best threads I ever read here... he seems to have a great interest in this subject as well....cool you mentioned him !


Yes, that one, too! I found those posts to be very interesting and insightful. I think there's definitely something to all of that, despite violent disagreement from some here. Our brains are quite influenced by chemicals, so it only makes sense. All the other variables only serve to make that equation more complex.


----------



## jld

doubletrouble said:


> W has often said she doesn't feel worthy of me, as well. It may sound odd, but I prop her up when she says that. Even though it was her poor choices that put us there.


You are a very, very good man, dt, and I am so glad your wife has your support. 

Are you both transparent with each other now? I think that is so helpful. At least that is the only way I can be with my dh. And he listens to me so well. We use active listening a lot (repeating back what the other person has said, to make them feel understood and respected).

And very best wishes to both of you.


----------



## soulpotato

jld said:


> I'm sorry for what you have been through, hawx20. Not sure what else to say. I hear your pain.
> 
> It is really good that you speak up. You seem to be able to express yourself through your hurt, when so many can only speak through their anger.


He seems angry to me. Which is fine, he has a right to be angry with _his_ wayward. I disagree with the broad tarring of all other waywards, though, which happens all the time on TAM. Not all waywards lack strength, character, morals, goodness, or willpower. But all people are subject to times of weakness and breakdown and acting out of character. All people eventually do something wrong, something to be ashamed of. Some of us go big,unfortunately. But I don't see the purpose of telling us that we're basically worthless and irredeemable people, regardless of everything else we've been and done (which is unknown to people here).

My own partner has told me that I am good, strong, kind, and that I have everything she wants and needs. I asked her last night if she was sure I was the best for her, and she said yes. So who should I believe, angry strangers on the internet, or the person who has known me intimately for a decade? The relative lack of constructive feedback on TAM is so frustrating, and I understand why people don't stick around to be pointlessly attacked, belittled, or insulted.

I wonder why my betrayed is so different from many others on here. She still holds me in high regard. She never hated me or said nasty things. She even thinks her trust can go back to 100%. I make sure to check myself with her and am completely transparent. I take great care. And while I have my guard up here (what wayward would be totally defenseless and vulnerable on TAM, of all places), my heart and self are bared and open to her, and her only.


----------



## soulpotato

jld said:


> You're right, dt. I don't ever want to hurt dh like that. It would be hurting myself too. I would never get over the shame. And I am sure I would not feel worthy of him. Even thinking about it feels awful.


A lot of waywards do end up hurting themselves as well. I'm not sure the shame ever goes away. There are lots of times I don't feel worthy of my partner, but if she feels I am, then that's what matters and I'll endeavor to be the best person and partner that I can be. I'm very happy to have the privilege of putting my arms around her, and of seeing her face light up for me.


----------



## soulpotato

jld said:


> I think this is what I learned yesterday. I automatically think of the BS as the stronger person, the person who, because they have already gotten support from others, can afford to share some with the Wayward. But did I ever get a different picture yesterday.
> 
> It helps to think of people as just hurt and angry, instead of just mean. It helps me, anyway.
> 
> Thank you so much for posting here, soulpotato. I was told other waywards appreciated my thread but were too afraid to speak up. Gosh, that makes me sad. I hate to see people intimidated and afraid to speak. It doesn't make for a healthy society. Everyone has their story. We learn from listening to everyone. God bless, soulpotato.


Sometimes people are just mean, but yes, a lot of them are so hurt and angry. 

Sure thing.  I think their fear is perfectly understandable. But sad, yes. Our society is definitely unhealthy, to say the least. It's good to keep an open heart and mind (keeps us human), but not easy. Most people can't do it, but you do.


----------



## soulpotato

jld said:


> I am so glad to hear this, SGC. And I am surprised you were told that transparency is controlling. Honestly, some of the things I read here sometimes.


Pretty sure my partner would feel this way. She is very private and would be livid if I ever looked at her messages to other people, etc. She is still unhappy with me for looking at two entries in her journal 2 years ago (I was concerned about what she was writing in there in such an intense fashion). It's the only time I've ever looked at anything of hers.


----------



## calvin

doubletrouble said:


> W has often said she doesn't feel worthy of me, as well. It may sound odd, but I prop her up when she says that. Even though it was her poor choices that put us there.


 That's real remorse,I see it from my wife also.
We can't hold onto this forever,its not fair to us or our spouse,after almost two years of
being on guard I'm done,I have nothing to worry about.
When the wife gets hard on herself I do the best I can to comfort her.
Good people fvck up,it happens.
I know we can lean on eachother,I know I have no worries.
A truely remorseful spouse can't be an outcast forever,I even defend her when my fam says
things to me.
That's my wife being talked about and that won't fly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I don't know, I read that and think
> Wow, she messed up. That is going to bite her in the ass and make all the problems worse in the long run. I can relate to her anger and revenge desires and now this act of being fine with it (you tell yourself that to feel better) and I feel bad that soon enough it will all come crashing down on her and all the pain she did feel will be magnified. I feel bad that she felt that going from one person who she felt used her to another who used her was any kind of solution to her problem and I feel bad about the fact that she was having marital problems in the first place. I feel all those things along with feeling bad for her BS.
> 
> *I don't think, Wow, she's a horrible, terrible slvt* and I hope she gets hit by a bus, goes to hell and then gets hit by a bus there too!
> 
> See, compassion


I must be some sort of awful fWW... because those are the thoughts that went through MY head, especially when it was pointed out that he HAS tried different things to increase frequency of sex. 

I am also one who has tried to show compassion when WS come on here. Still, even that is subjective. If they show no remorse, even bragging about cheating on their spouses, I do hope they (figuratively) get hit by a bus. If they do show remorse, I do what I can to try to help them. I was not jumped on by everyone when I first joined. A little later on, I did have one person who seemed to have an intense dislike for me and the fact that I stood up for the WS who were actually trying to repair the marriage.

I'm not going to rehash the particulars of my situation. Really, it's all in my signature. We both got emotionally involved with other people but chose to R and are doing much better now. Had either of us ever taken it physical with someone else, we'd have been done.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

jld:
for a thread whose title seems to guarentee such overwhelming canon fire it would be expected to sink after a few pages, you seem to have created a very interesting discusion!

have been able to read it all yet, in fact. just to clarify something, were you trying to indicate earlier a feeling that wayward wives should probably get more consideration/compassion than wayward husbands??


----------



## joe kidd

calvin said:


> That's real remorse,I see it from my wife also.
> We can't hold onto this forever,its not fair to us or our spouse,after almost two years of
> being on guard I'm done,I have nothing to worry about.
> When the wife gets hard on herself I do the best I can to comfort her.
> Good people fvck up,it happens.
> I know we can lean on eachother,I know I have no worries.
> A truely remorseful spouse can't be an outcast forever,I even defend her when my fam says
> things to me.
> That's my wife being talked about and that won't fly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep. What makes compassion, or hell , anything hard at 1st is that I kept going back to the way she treated me that summer. Beneath contempt. I'm not talking about the lies and sneaking off to meet him. I'm talking about the way she talked to me and acted toward me when she was around.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Yep. What makes compassion, or hell , anything hard at 1st is that I kept going back to the way she treated me that summer. Beneath contempt. I'm not talking about the lies and sneaking off to meet him. I'm talking about the way she talked to me and acted toward me when she was around.


 Yeah,I was treated ungodly cruel by her,I have never seen anything like it from her
before,I doubt I will ever see it again.She's ashamed of how she acted,God it was'nt
her if you know what I mean.
She deserve a chance without me mucking it up.
It sounds weird showing compassion but at this point it feels right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Interestingly enough I've just read through a thread on CWI where it was the first time I saw some compassion towards a WS. I'm happy that there is different responses to different situations. 


I think showing remorse is helpful and it also should be reciprocated if you have done wrong yourself. I would hope that no BS would act like they were perfect or that all their wrongs were absolved because their partner was the one who had an A.


----------



## jld

calvin said:


> That's real remorse,I see it from my wife also.
> We can't hold onto this forever,its not fair to us or our spouse,after almost two years of
> being on guard I'm done,I have nothing to worry about.
> When the wife gets hard on herself I do the best I can to comfort her.
> Good people fvck up,it happens.
> I know we can lean on eachother,I know I have no worries.
> A truely remorseful spouse can't be an outcast forever,I even defend her when my fam says
> things to me.
> That's my wife being talked about and that won't fly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:yay: You are a man worth staying married to, calvin. Good job.


----------



## jld

nuclearnightmare said:


> jld:
> for a thread whose title seems to guarentee such overwhelming canon fire it would be expected to sink after a few pages, you seem to have created a very interesting discusion!


Thank you, nn. Yes, the discussion seems calmer and more productive now. I really took some heat Thurs. and did not know if I could come back to TAM. And some posters that I thought were mature and even wise have made me question my esteem of them.

I think the trick to starting these discussions is to have genuinely good motives (truly trying to create understanding of waywards) and be willing to understand the other side. I lost patience with a poster that I thought was twisting around one of my statements, but otherwise, I have tried to be tolerant and to really listen.

And you have to be calm when others are emoting. That is what my dh does for me, and I have to extend that to other people. They will help me at some point, too, I am sure.


----------



## jld

nuclearnightmare said:


> have been able to read it all yet, in fact. just to clarify something, were you trying to indicate earlier a feeling that wayward wives should probably get more consideration/compassion than wayward husbands??


Would you like to explain your position first, nn? By the two question marks, I am guessing we see this differently. I may be wrong about this, so I would like to hear your view first, please. Thank you.


----------



## jld

calvin said:


> Yeah,I was treated ungodly cruel by her,I have never seen anything like it from her
> before,I doubt I will ever see it again.She's ashamed of how she acted,God it was'nt
> her if you know what I mean.
> She deserve a chance without me mucking it up.
> It sounds weird showing compassion but at this point it feels right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just have to congratulate you again on your maturity, calvin. I don't know you, but you have impressed me. God bless you, and God bless your marriage.


----------



## jld

joe kidd said:


> Yep. What makes compassion, or hell , anything hard at 1st is that I kept going back to the way she treated me that summer. Beneath contempt. I'm not talking about the lies and sneaking off to meet him. I'm talking about the way she talked to me and acted toward me when she was around.


Joe, have you shared your feelings with your wife? Have you given her a chance to really understand how much she hurt you with the way she treated you?

You felt disrespected, in small ways as well as big. I think she needs to know exactly and specifically how you feel.

She may not be able to apologize sincerely right away, but the guilt will work on her heart. With enough patience from you, an apology should come eventually.

And you might want to consider just being bigger than she is. 

I have said many, many unkind things to my dh. He has never sworn at me or called me a bad name. (Well, he did say "Stupid girl!" one time, the first week we were together, 20 years ago.) He just stands there until I am done, and then talks calmingly to me. Eventually I see reason, and apologize. 

He's more mature than I am, Joe. That's part of why we are together. Can you be that for your wife?


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I think showing remorse is helpful and it also should be reciprocated if you have done wrong yourself. I would hope that no BS would act like they were perfect or that all their wrongs were absolved because their partner was the one who had an A.


:iagree:

This is the thing. My goodness, all these perfect people posting. My goodness.

I have made mistakes in my life. I have done bad things. I have appreciated compassion from people. I have learned the most from people who have looked into my situation and tried to figure out what was going wrong, and then helped me fix some things so the result would be different.

The people who just shamed me? They are not even in my life anymore. What small hearts . . . and closed minds.


----------



## jld

soulpotato said:


> I wonder why my betrayed is so different from many others on here. She still holds me in high regard. She never hated me or said nasty things. She even thinks her trust can go back to 100%. I make sure to check myself with her and am completely transparent. I take great care. And while I have my guard up here (what wayward would be totally defenseless and vulnerable on TAM, of all places), my heart and self are bared and open to her, and her only.


Your SO is mature, soulpotato. She can look outside of her own pain and into your heart. She can reach beyond herself to help another. 

My dh is like this. I have not always treated him respectfully, that is for sure. But he is stable and calm and mature with me. He sees into my heart things that I did not even realize. I am worth it to him.

You and I are lucky, soulpotato. Not everyone has the open arms of love to catch them when they fall, and help put them back on their feet again. And because they do not, they react as we see here.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> If I could, I would have dh read every post and every pm before I send it, but that just is not possible. But as long as he has the passwords, I feel like I am covered. His trust in me is precious, and if I ever lost it, I would feel terrible shame. I already feel shame for the ways I have not been the best for him. But he is so kind and forgiving, and patient with me. I am grateful.


In some ways you remind me very much of myself, jld. I was and can be extremely naive, and you mentioned how things sometimes shock you one here. 

I also used to have a lot of toxic shame (r/t CSA baggage). A MC explained to me that like their anatomy, women tend to deal with toxic shame by internalizing and men by externalizing. 

Seems to me that- if you do have this toxic shame- that you are doubly blessed not to have magnetically attracted a male "match". My husband's dad taught him with hands on demo how to molest a 12 yo neighbor girl when he was 12- which is CSA too (though my H will not admit that and deal with it, he says his dad did that out of love and concern and anyway the girl giggled which means she liked it ).

Toxic shame outward--> Think about the men you have ever heard or read about who sexually abuse children and how they blame the victim and utterly fail to take responsibility for their actions. Think about grown men criminals where you see their mommy step in and defend them- how they are "the victim". 

I think the dynamic is probably different depending if the cheater in a M is male or female. You have said yourself how ashamed you would feel and BH in posts above have said how their wife does not feel worthy of them and they have to reassure their wife (despite the fact that she was the one who cheated). YOU would feel ashamed but imagine if your H cheated and it is all and only YOUR fault. He is a "victim". 

My experience is that I had to STOP allowing my husband to blame me for anything in the marriage and continually keep putting his crapola back on his side of the marital street. I had to STOP apologizing for the things he would criticize. IME his criticism was not in an effort to improve the M but an effort to turn the spotlight off of himself and his destructive behavior. The MC referred to it as "deflection", "self justification", and "denial".

So the idea that a BS has any responsibility whatsover for a WS adultery- I completely reject that idea. I can see how long term sexual witholding could cause some temptation issues and IMO its a breaking of the marriage vows- so if that is a legitimate issue the solution is divorce, not cheating.


----------



## jld

soulpotato said:


> A lot of waywards do end up hurting themselves as well. I'm not sure the shame ever goes away. There are lots of times I don't feel worthy of my partner, but if she feels I am, then that's what matters and I'll endeavor to be the best person and partner that I can be. I'm very happy to have the privilege of putting my arms around her, and of seeing her face light up for me.


(((soulpotato)))

Just focus on her love and acceptance. There are folks here on TAM who just don't have the love in their lives to be able to be compassionate. When that changes, they might see this differently.

In the meantime, I am just so glad you have your SO to support you. I am sure you mean a lot to her.


----------



## jld

soulpotato said:


> Sometimes people are just mean, but yes, a lot of them are so hurt and angry.
> 
> Sure thing.  I think their fear is perfectly understandable. But sad, yes. Our society is definitely unhealthy, to say the least. It's good to keep an open heart and mind (keeps us human), but not easy. Most people can't do it, but you do.


Thanks a lot, soulpotato.

Dh just pours love into me. What I need, he gives. It doesn't mean I don't have to sometimes ask for what I need, but if at all possible, he gives it.

Sometimes I feel like my marriage is completely foreign to TAM. 

How did dh and I get this far without 6 marriage books, including word for word memory of everything in His Needs, Her Needs, marital counseling, more knowledge of sex than I can still imagine over there in SIM, and the revelation  that transparency is controlling and apologies are giving the other person power. I don't get it. And I don't get a lot of other things here, either, like power struggles and sexless marriages. Just foreign to me.

Okay, forgive the rant in that last paragraph. Gotta let off steam sometimes, lol!


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> In some ways you remind me very much of myself, jld. I was and can be extremely naive, and you mentioned how things sometimes shock you one here.
> 
> I also used to have a lot of toxic shame (r/t CSA baggage). A MC explained to me that like their anatomy, women tend to deal with toxic shame by internalizing and men by externalizing.
> 
> Seems to me that- if you do have this toxic shame- that you are doubly blessed not to have magnetically attracted a male "match". My husband's dad taught him with hands on demo how to molest a 12 yo neighbor girl when he was 12- which is CSA too (though my H will not admit that and deal with it, he says his dad did that out of love and concern and anyway the girl giggled which means she liked it ).
> 
> Toxic shame outward--> Think about the men you have ever heard or read about who sexually abuse children and how they blame the victim and utterly fail to take responsibility for their actions. Think about grown men criminals where you see their mommy step in and defend them- how they are "the victim".
> 
> *I think the dynamic is probably different depending if the cheater in a M is male or female.* You have said yourself how ashamed you would feel and BH in posts above have said how their wife does not feel worthy of them and they have to reassure their wife (despite the fact that she was the one who cheated). YOU would feel ashamed but imagine if your H cheated and it is all and only YOUR fault. He is a "victim".
> 
> My experience is that I had to STOP allowing my husband to blame me for anything in the marriage and continually keep putting his crapola back on his side of the marital street. I had to STOP apologizing for the things he would criticize. IME his criticism was not in an effort to improve the M but an effort to turn the spotlight off of himself and his destructive behavior. The MC referred to it as "deflection", "self justification", and "denial".
> 
> So the idea that a BS has any responsibility whatsover for a WS adultery- I completely reject that idea. I can see how long term sexual witholding could cause some temptation issues and IMO its a breaking of the marriage vows- so if that is a legitimate issue the solution is divorce, not cheating.


I agree with the bolded, and if we can get a mature, calm, productive discussion going on this, I think we could all learn a lot.

Blonde, I have only compassion for you. Honestly, I don't know how you have made it this far in your marriage. I think I would have baled long ago.

How have you made it this far?


----------



## soulpotato

jld said:


> Your SO is mature, soulpotato. She can look outside of her own pain and into your heart. She can reach beyond herself to help another.
> 
> My dh is like this. I have not always treated him respectfully, that is for sure. But he is stable and calm and mature with me. He sees into my heart things that I did not even realize. I am worth it to him.
> 
> You and I are lucky, soulpotato. Not everyone has the open arms of love to catch them when they fall, and help put them back on their feet again. And because they do not, they react as we see here.


She is an amazing person. She has a very open heart and mind, a depth of thought and perception that is very uncommon. Not that we haven't both had times of immaturity, or being blind to what we were contributing to problems, but we both feel strongly that we belong together and that we can overcome the problems. I've never known anyone like her.

My partner has trouble with being stable and calm (she's working on that), but like your husband, she can sometimes see into my heart and mind so well. (The times she can't, it's because her hurt and fear have blocked her view.) She understands me like no one else ever has. And she knows when I am really in trouble, too, even when everyone else thinks I'm ok.

Yes, we are both lucky.


----------



## jld

Blonde, I should have written more on that last post.

When my sister was 12, our music teacher at our local public school got her pregnant. He took her to a city, to an abortion clinic. The abuse (beatings, anal sex, threats to kill our parents if she ever told, who knows what else) had started a year before, and continued for a few years until another girl he was abusing told, and then he just left for another public school in another part of the state. This was in the late 70s.

My sister had all kinds of problems, including anorexia, running away, and of course, being drawn to all the wrong kinds of men.

When she was 17, my parents were told about what happened. My mother's response? "She knew what she was doing was wrong!" 

My brother was the only one my sister had confided in long before, during the abuse. His response? "She went to Catholic school (this was before we moved to a rural area, where there was only the public school). She knew what she was doing was wrong!"

I hate my mother and my brother for that. I hate that. How could they have responded to her that way, for all she went through?

You know that she told me by the time she was 26 she had been with 70 men? Can you believe that?

My sister was abused and beaten so many times. So many. And nothing but judgment from my family.

She's 50 now and stilll single. She had a child out of wedlock when she was 30. She actually makes a lot of money and lives very comfortably, with a beautiful home and trips around the world. At least she has that. She is still so unhealthy inside. It must be so painful to look inward.

As SA said, we all come out of our own worldview, our own life experience. I came from a home with a strict, strict father and dominant men (four brothers and four brothers-in-law). I feel like women and children have to be protected from men. That is just my natural instinct.

Apparently not all men are like this, and my dh is certainly a fine, trustworthy man. But I don't know many men like my dh. So I guess I automatically feel protective towards other women and suspicious of men.

But there are some nasty women in this world. And that is making me open my eyes to having to change my worldview on men and women.

It is a growing experience to be here, let me tell you. I hope I can take it, lol.

Thanks so much for conversing with me, Blonde. Again, I feel so much compassion for you. I have many children, too (5) and I homeschool. But my husband is very, very different from yours. I truly wish for better for you, and very soon. God bless.


----------



## soulpotato

jld said:


> Thanks a lot, soulpotato.
> 
> Dh just pours love into me. What I need, he gives. It doesn't mean I don't have to sometimes ask for what I need, but if at all possible, he gives it.
> 
> Sometimes I feel like my marriage is completely foreign to TAM.
> 
> How did dh and I get this far without 6 marriage books, including word for word memory of everything in His Needs, Her Needs, marital counseling, more knowledge of sex than I can still imagine over there in SIM, and the revelation  that transparency is controlling and apologies are giving the other person power. I don't get it. And I don't get a lot of other things here, either, like power struggles and sexless marriages. Just foreign to me.
> 
> Okay, forgive the rant in that last paragraph. Gotta let off steam sometimes, lol!


You're welcome.  

Haha, some of us _need_ 10+ books, therapy, and dogged practice of effective communication skills!! :rofl: Me and my partner fit into this group. Both of us have many issues, including emotional regulation issues. We're not always sure which ones come from environment/upbringing (we both came from toxic families), and which ones are genetic, but ultimately it doesn't matter - we're doing our best to deal with them all. 

I wish it could just flow easily like your relationship with your husband, buuuttt...that may never happen. Which is ok. But it would be great if it ever happened!! 

I'm glad that your marriage is foreign to TAM and that it works so well.  I will be watching closely for any pointers!!


----------



## jld

soulpotato said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> Haha, some of us _need_ 10+ books, therapy, and dogged practice of effective communication skills!! :rofl: Me and my partner fit into this group. Both of us have many issues, including emotional regulation issues. We're not always sure which ones come from environment/upbringing (we both came from toxic families), and which ones are genetic, but ultimately it doesn't matter - we're doing our best to deal with them all.
> 
> I wish it could just flow easily like your relationship with you'd husband, buuuttt...that may never happen. Which is ok. But it would be great if it ever happened!!
> 
> I'm glad that your marriage is foreign to TAM and that it works so well.  I will be watching closely for any pointers!!


I'm sorry. I really was ranting there. I just don't understand, I don't think. And I don't understand people asking me if I'm abused. I've heard that several times. And warning me how unhealthy our dynamic is. Whatever, lol.

I know I risk offending people by just saying what is in my heart. But that is how I have learned the most from people here -- when they have just spoken from their hearts. Even if it hurts, it provokes growth. Maybe some BSs were mad at this thread because deep inside, they think it would be helpful for them to feel compassion, but they don't, or not yet. It's easier to lash out at me than to look inside. 

One friend here pm'd me and told me to try to just take it, to just absorb their anger, because they may not have anywhere else to hurl it. But even those of us who truly seek to understand and are truly caring have our limits. We need to feel respected and listened to, too.

I don't mean for this to sound like another mini-rant, lol. It is just pouring out of me, I guess. And again, I think sometimes just sharing our honest feelings is healing to us and helpful to other people.


----------



## soulpotato

JLD, I wrote a response about your sister,but TAM ate it. I'll have to rewrite later, but I am so sorry for what your sister went through and for how that affected her life.


----------



## jld

soulpotato said:


> JLD, I wrote a response about your sister,but TAM ate it. I'll have to rewrite later, but I am so sorry for what your sister went through and for how that affected her life.


Thanks. Sincere thanks.


----------



## calvin

jld said:


> Blonde, I should have written more on that last post.
> 
> When my sister was 12, our music teacher at our local public school got her pregnant. He took her to a city, to an abortion clinic. The abuse (beatings, anal sex, threats to kill our parents if she ever told, who knows what else) had started a year before, and continued for a few years until another girl he was abusing told, and then he just left for another public school in another part of the state. This was in the late 70s.
> 
> My sister had all kinds of problems, including anorexia, running away, and of course, being drawn to all the wrong kinds of men.
> 
> When she was 17, my parents were told about what happened. My mother's response? "She knew what she was doing was wrong!"
> 
> My brother was the only one my sister had confided in long before, during the abuse. His response? "She went to Catholic school (this was before we moved to a rural area, where there was only the public school). She knew what she was doing was wrong!"
> 
> I hate my mother and my brother for that. I hate that. How could they have responded to her that way, for all she went through?
> 
> You know that she told me by the time she was 26 she had been with 70 men? Can you believe that?
> 
> My sister was abused and beaten so many times. So many. And nothing but judgment from my family.
> 
> She's 50 now and stilll single. She had a child out of wedlock when she was 30. She actually makes a lot of money and lives very comfortably, with a beautiful home and trips around the world. At least she has that. She is still so unhealthy inside. It must be so painful to look inward.
> 
> As SA said, we all come out of our own worldview, our own life experience. I came from a home with a strict, strict father and dominant men (four brothers and four brothers-in-law). I feel like women and children have to be protected from men. That is just my natural instinct.
> 
> Apparently not all men are like this, and my dh is certainly a fine, trustworthy man. But I don't know many men like my dh. So I guess I automatically feel protective towards other women and suspicious of men.
> 
> But there are some nasty women in this world. And that is making me open my eyes to having to change my worldview on men and women.
> 
> It is a growing experience to be here, let me tell you. I hope I can take it, lol.
> 
> Thanks so much for conversing with me, Blonde. Again, I feel so much compassion for you. I have many children, too (5) and I homeschool. But my husband is very, very different from yours. I truly wish for better for you, and very soon. God bless.


 Christ that's so sad.
I have five sisters,I'm the only boy and the youngest out of us all.
Way too many times I had to go after a abusive bf or husband,nothing but selfish
cowards are what most of those men were.
They showed no compassion but expected it to be shown to them.
Ummm.....no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

calvin said:


> Christ that's so sad.
> I have five sisters,I'm the only boy and the youngest out of us all.
> Way too many times I had to go after a abusive bf or husband,*nothing but selfish
> cowards are what most of those men were.
> They showed no compassion but expected it to be shown to them.*
> Ummm.....no.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


----------



## turnera

jld, no one means wrong here, it's just that, as you say, maybe your marriage just isn't typical. Or maybe your choice to be uber loving, trusting, and giving was VERY lucky in that you ended up with just the right match, and your H is remarkable. Had you picked someone who had any amount of selfishness or low self esteem, your situation could easily turn out wrong. That's why people so often assume you're an abused victim. Either that or you really are and don't recognize it. We just wish you well.


----------



## Vega

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I would hope that no BS would act like they were perfect or that all their wrongs were absolved because their partner was the one who had an A.


By the same token, MOST of the time, it is the WS who _uses_ the (real or perceived) 'faults' of the BS to justify cheating in the first place. 

Vega


----------



## Vega

calvin said:


> Christ that's so sad.
> Way too many times I had to go after a abusive bf or husband,nothing but selfish
> cowards are what most of those men were.
> They showed no compassion but expected it to be shown to them.Ummm.....no.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


YES!!! :iagree:

And, if you DID show them compassion, you'd be seen as 'weak' by them! 

Vega


----------



## Caribbean Man

Blonde said:


> Toxic shame outward--> Think about the men you have ever heard or read about who sexually abuse children and how they blame the victim and utterly fail to take responsibility for their actions. Think about grown men criminals where you see their mommy step in and defend them- how they are "the victim".
> 
> I think the dynamic is probably different depending if the cheater in a M is male or female. You have said yourself how ashamed you would feel and BH in posts above have said how their wife does not feel worthy of them and they have to reassure their wife (despite the fact that she was the one who cheated). YOU would feel ashamed but imagine if your H cheated and it is all and only YOUR fault. He is a "victim".
> 
> My experience is that I had to STOP allowing my husband to blame me for anything in the marriage and continually keep putting his crapola back on his side of the marital street. I had to STOP apologizing for the things he would criticize. IME his criticism was not in an effort to improve the M but an effort to turn the spotlight off of himself and his destructive behavior. The MC referred to it as "deflection", "self justification", and "denial".
> 
> *So the idea that a BS has any responsibility whatsover for a WS adultery- I completely reject that idea. * I can see how long term sexual witholding could cause some temptation issues and IMO its a breaking of the marriage vows- so if that is a legitimate issue the solution is divorce, not cheating.


:iagree:

I completely with everything that Blonde said above.

I think that bringing past shortcomings of a BS spouse in defence of a wayward spouse is blaming the victim period and seeking to shift some of the responsibility for their bed decision to the victim.

OP, think for a minute if someone broke into your house , stole your electronics and valuables and got caught by the police.
During the trial, his lawyer begins to lay blame on you because you are affluent and your lifestyles make it hard for the poorer classes to survive.
What is the judge agreed with his defence and then slaps a charge on you and commit sentences you to take care of the perpertrator's kids for three years.

Crazy right?

That's why it doesn't really matter the circumstances. The responsibility for wrongdoing lies squarely on the shoulder of the wrongdoer.


----------



## soulpotato

I don't think JLD is saying that showing compassion = infidelity wasn't the wayward's fault. 

My betrayed partner definitely has faults, as do I (obviously), but I have never said that she caused me to cheat or made me do it. I have often said that MY faults and MY problems caused me to cheat. I have said that the toxic atmosphere of our relationship interacted with my issues in a negative way. For me, it was something of a perfect storm. 

Her compassion for me does not mean that she feels at fault for my cheating - nor has she ever felt blamed by me for that. But she does see how her contributions to our relationship affected me, and how I folded under the combo of internal and external badness. 

I'm sure some WSs do blame their BSs for "making" them cheat, but I see a lot more who don't. I think it is maybe that fear inside of the BS - and the fact that they often go through the stage of self-blaming - that makes them interpret things waywards/former waywards say here as being blame-shifting, justifying, etc. 

I am not sure how many times we have to point at ourselves and say how cheating was completely our fault. Maybe we need to set up some neon signs with arrows pointing at us and declaring that it is our fault and no one else's? LOL, sorry, sorry.  It just gets a little exasperating sometimes. Can't say a sentence or two without having to reassure people that it was all our fault. Hard to have conversations when you keep having to stop to restate that!


----------



## soulpotato

Vega said:


> By the same token, MOST of the time, it is the WS who _uses_ the (real or perceived) 'faults' of the BS to justify cheating in the first place.
> 
> Vega


I see the scenario that SGC pointed out occurring a lot more frequently than the one you state here. Some of the time (seems like a lot to me, but I'll understate to make sure I'm not overstating, lol), the WS also seems to get the blame for everything going wrong in the BS's life. 

Even apart from the infidelity - my own partner has blamed me for the last ten years for things that had nothing to do with me. It was only once we started living apart (during our separation) that she realized that she could feel unhappy or be in a bad mood without it being my fault somehow! That she had actually done things wrong, too. That was when she realized she might have her own problems which contributed to issues in other parts of her life and in our relationship.

There is also a lot of talk about how the faults of the BS are just "perceived" and not real, or how the WS "rewrote" how bad things were. This is definitely not the rule, and I suspect it is not even the case most of the time.

I hope this doesn't turn into another thread about how WSs are somehow blaming their cheating on BSs (like a lot of other threads).


----------



## nuclearnightmare

jld said:


> Would you like to explain your position first, nn? By the two question marks, I am guessing we see this differently. I may be wrong about this, so I would like to hear your view first, please. Thank you.


Sure. And sorry - some of these mobile devices are really horrible things to type on - I meant to say that I have NOT been able to read all this thread....not yet. I just saw one of the posters ask you whether you had in mind wayward wife's, or wayward husbands or both, in your thread title. Answer was unclear so that is simply my question for you. Are you thinking more of one gender VS the other here?


----------



## soulpotato

I'm not trying to hurt or upset anyone. It just gets really frustrating.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Caribbean Man said:


> :
> 
> I think that bringing past shortcomings of a BS spouse in defence of a wayward spouse is blaming the victim period and seeking to shift some of the responsibility for their bed decision to the victim..


You can look at the state of the relationship and actions the BS has done to create that environment as a way of understanding why the WS made a bad choice. It doesn't mean the WS's choice is less bad just that there is ALSO bad on the other side. One doesn't have to lessen the other. 

In my case just looking at my A wouldn't have solved a thing. There were specific reasons why I was in the place (physically and mentally) to begin in the affair at all. If my BS didn't understand what he had done to take some responsibility in the breakdown that led to the A we never would have R'd. Fixing the damage of my A was just the beginning, that was 3 weeks. There was years of damage to go through. 

When I met my AP I was outside in the night, alone and crying after being chased out of my home because of a fight that I feared could get physical if I didn't leave. This happened often, sometimes in the dead of winter without me having the opportunity to grab a coat, shoes or my cellphone. I had my own emotional/anxiety issues *which I take responsibility for* from my past relationship that I feel made it harder for me to simply kick him out (which I tried but would get intimidated and back down and at the time he was unemployed which made it more difficult) 
AP saw me and began to offer "fatherly advice" and help which then turned to an EA. By the time the A happened I was desperate and broken down. He takes responsibility for that, I take responsibility for the A and that I had other options that I was too weak to use. 
I'm just not willing to let him be the only victim, and I'm not willing to let his bad actions be forgotten. Either we both work on our weaknesses or we split, that's my terms and so far it is working, slowly. I'm sure most people disagree with that but I'm just not there, maybe someday?


----------



## maaz3231

Will they wear the scarlet letter forever...probably to some extent in the BS's mind, yes. It will take time, but if a BS decides to R, the WS absolutely deserves compassion again. They deserve compassion as a human being and they deserve compassion in the relationship. One thing they will never get compassion for is their choice to cheat. In the instance of getting compassion from people not involved in the relationship, they don't know the whole story of who was causing what problems in the relationship.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

jld said:


> It probably just wasn't a good match then, don't you think? I am assuming you are divorced now. This way you can both move on and make a more compatible choice in the future.
> 
> This is new for me, feeling sorry for men, but I do think it is sad when they are living sexless lives. It is such a small thing a woman can do for a man, and it makes him so much more open to her needs.


JLD

Do you think that some people are not really a good match for anyone? I.e. they more or less cannot be faithful, no matter who they marry.


----------



## jld

nuclearnightmare said:


> JLD
> 
> Do you think that some people are not really a good match for anyone? I.e. they more or less cannot be faithful, no matter who they marry.


Yes. I think it is clear from Blonde's example, and so many others IRL, that some men, and perhaps fewer women (just a guess), just cannot be faithful partners.

Now, I guess if you can find someone who does not care if you are faithful, it is a different story. But I don't know how many people are really wired for that.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I'm just not willing to let him be the only victim, and I'm not willing to let his bad actions be forgotten. Either we both work on our weaknesses or we split, that's my terms and so far it is working, slowly.


Stick with that, SGC. It sounds very healthy.

Thanks so much for sharing your story with us. I just feel so much compassion for you. Do men think that they can neglect, neglect, neglect a wife and she is not going to be vulnerable to another man? Come on. It is like a wife going long periods of time without being sexually available. Getting away from the politics of that, and just being practical, it is just asking for trouble.

I'll tell you, SGC, you had a lot of courage speaking up on this thread. More courage than I have. You stood strong amid the vitriol. Truly, hats off.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> You can look at the state of the relationship and actions the BS has done to create that environment as a way of understanding why the WS made a bad choice. It doesn't mean the WS's choice is less bad just that there is ALSO bad on the other side. One doesn't have to lessen the other.
> 
> In my case just looking at my A wouldn't have solved a thing. There were specific reasons why I was in the place (physically and mentally) to begin in the affair at all. If my BS didn't understand what he had done to take some responsibility in the breakdown that led to the A we never would have R'd. Fixing the damage of my A was just the beginning, that was 3 weeks. There was years of damage to go through.
> 
> When I met my AP I was outside in the night, alone and crying after being chased out of my home because of a fight that I feared could get physical if I didn't leave. This happened often, sometimes in the dead of winter without me having the opportunity to grab a coat, shoes or my cellphone. I had my own emotional/anxiety issues *which I take responsibility for* from my past relationship that I feel made it harder for me to simply kick him out (which I tried but would get intimidated and back down and at the time he was unemployed which made it more difficult)
> AP saw me and began to offer "fatherly advice" and help which then turned to an EA. By the time the A happened I was desperate and broken down. He takes responsibility for that, I take responsibility for the A and that I had other options that I was too weak to use.
> I'm just not willing to let him be the only victim, and I'm not willing to let his bad actions be forgotten. Either we both work on our weaknesses or we split, that's my terms and so far it is working, slowly. I'm sure most people disagree with that but I'm just not there, maybe someday?


Slowly

Sorry....coming late to this. We're you/ are you in a physically abusive relathionship? Does he/did he beat you on occasion......


----------



## jld

nuclearnightmare said:


> Sure. And sorry - some of these mobile devices are really horrible things to type on - I meant to say that I have NOT been able to read all this thread....not yet. I just saw one of the posters ask you whether you had in mind wayward wife's, or wayward husbands or both, in your thread title. Answer was unclear so that is simply my question for you. Are you thinking more of one gender VS the other here?


Hi, nn. I really had in mind wayward wives. I should have been clear about that. 

I don't know, nn. In my heart I wonder if ww are also bw. Did you read SGC's story? How is she not a betrayed spouse? How was her dh in anyway a husband? He was not only not meeting her emotional needs, I am not even sure he was meeting her physical needs.

I have known so many women who were not truly loved in my life. My sisters, to an extent my mother and mil, neighbors, can't count them all. And I do blame men. 

Now, the reality is probably the men did not know better . . . and did not try to know. There is selfishness in men. Dh told me once that men are selfish and women are vulnerable. He also told me that, "Woman was created to be loved by Man."

My own dear, dear dh, has selfishness to him, too. I had to face that last Sat am and wrote about it on my thread. It was really hard to admit that he had taken me for granted. He later said it was a matter of priorities. I wasn't going anywhere, and he wanted to focus on work, the kids, and other things. That really, really hurt.

I don't think I am a PA kind of gal, but it is pretty amazing I did not end up in an EA during some parts of our marriage. I did not even always have girlfriends to talk to. Sometimes it was just me and the kids, day after day after day. And sometimes I would blow up at them. I remember slapping my daughter across the face several different times. I've apologized, but I think it would have been better for the steam to not have risen in the first place.

I remember one period of time, it was so hard. We were living in a small apartment in France, and I was just so lonely and so . . . .resourceless? Or that's how it seemed. I would talk to dh and tell him what I thought I needed and he just would say not now, not now, and I just felt so trapped. I was so happy when he got transferred to India, and I said I wanted to go back to America. I really pushed for that. I was so happy to get home, back to my own house and a car I could drive (I don't drive in Europe). I felt so free and so happy to be home.

And I stopped being frugal and just spent what I wanted. Great time, that year, the year before ds got cancer.


----------



## jld

maaz3231 said:


> Will they wear the scarlet letter forever...probably to some extent in the BS's mind, yes. It will take time, but if a BS decides to R, the WS absolutely deserves compassion again. They deserve compassion as a human being and they deserve compassion in the relationship. *One thing they will never get compassion for is their choice to cheat.* In the instance of getting compassion from people not involved in the relationship, they don't know the whole story of who was causing what problems in the relationship.


This is the truth of the matter. If you cheat, you are cheating. You can say no. You are the one pulling the trigger.

I think this is the most important thing I have learned on marrriage boards these past months. It is a choice, and it is all on you. There are alternatives.


----------



## joe kidd

jld said:


> Joe, have you shared your feelings with your wife? Have you given her a chance to really understand how much she hurt you with the way she treated you?
> 
> You felt disrespected, in small ways as well as big. I think she needs to know exactly and specifically how you feel.
> 
> She may not be able to apologize sincerely right away, but the guilt will work on her heart. With enough patience from you, an apology should come eventually.
> 
> And you might want to consider just being bigger than she is.
> 
> I have said many, many unkind things to my dh. He has never sworn at me or called me a bad name. (Well, he did say "Stupid girl!" one time, the first week we were together, 20 years ago.) He just stands there until I am done, and then talks calmingly to me. Eventually I see reason, and apologize.
> 
> He's more mature than I am, Joe. That's part of why we are together. Can you be that for your wife?


Oh yes. We have talked at length about it. She knows and is sorry. If I didn't feel that she was repentant then we would have split.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> jld, no one means wrong here, it's just that, as you say, maybe your marriage just isn't typical. Or maybe your choice to be uber loving, trusting, and giving was VERY lucky in that you ended up with just the right match, and your H is remarkable. Had you picked someone who had any amount of selfishness or low self esteem, your situation could easily turn out wrong. That's why people so often assume you're an abused victim. Either that or you really are and don't recognize it. We just wish you well.


Hi, turnera. You and I have had exchanges in the past, and I think we respect each other. I respect you, anyway.

I have the nature I have. I am the way I am in a relationship with a man. Dh must be remarkable, because people have commented on him regularly. I don't think it's just me, you know?

I was in an unhealthy relationship before that, though. Sometimes the attraction is just so great.

Dh does not abuse my trust. But he is not perfect, and sometimes he has been selfish. But it must be a light selfishness compared to what I see around me.

And I can be demanding, especially in terms of communication.

What we have works for us. And when I see people struggling, and working so gosh darn hard, with all these marriage books, and endless counseling, and all the negotiation, I feel . . . _tired_. I wish it weren't so hard for them. I wish they could . . . _share_ better.

And again, he picked me. I was smart enough to accept his offer, but without his wanting me in the first place, I would not have the life I have. I think his life would have been good either way.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

jld said:


> Hi, nn. I really had in mind wayward wives. I should have been clear about that.
> 
> I don't know, nn. In my heart I wonder if ww are also bw. Did you read SGC's story? How is she not a betrayed spouse? How was her dh in anyway a husband? He was not only not meeting her emotional needs, I am not even sure he was meeting her physical needs.
> 
> I have known so many women who were not truly loved in my life. My sisters, to an extent my mother and mil, neighbors, can't count them all. And I do blame men.
> 
> Now, the reality is probably the men did not know better . . . and did not try to know. There is selfishness in men. Dh told me once that men are selfish and women are vulnerable. He also told me that, "Woman was created to be loved by Man."
> 
> My own dear, dear dh, has selfishness to him, too. I had to face that last Sat am and wrote about it on my thread. It was really hard to admit that he had taken me for granted. He later said it was a matter of priorities. I wasn't going anywhere, and he wanted to focus on work, the kids, and other things. That really, really hurt.
> 
> I don't think I am a PA kind of gal, but it is pretty amazing I did not end up in an EA during some parts of our marriage. I did not even always have girlfriends to talk to. Sometimes it was just me and the kids, day after day after day. And sometimes I would blow up at them. I remember slapping my daughter across the face several different times. I've apologized, but I think it would have been better for the steam to not have risen in the first place.
> 
> I remember one period of time, it was so hard. We were living in a small apartment in France, and I was just so lonely and so . . . .resourceless? Or that's how it seemed. I would talk to dh and tell him what I thought I needed and he just would say not now, not now, and I just felt so trapped. I was so happy when he got transferred to India, and I said I wanted to go back to America. I really pushed for that. I was so happy to get home, back to my own house and a car I could drive (I don't drive in Europe). I felt so free and so happy to be home.
> 
> And I stopped being frugal and just spent what I wanted. Great time, that year, the year before ds got cancer.


JLD

You mention your sisters being mistreated/abused by your family. If that is the case you also must have been mistreated, I would think. Also, sorry but what does DH stand for?


----------



## jld

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I completely with everything that Blonde said above.
> 
> I think that bringing past shortcomings of a BS spouse in defence of a wayward spouse is blaming the victim period and seeking to shift some of the responsibility for their bed decision to the victim.
> 
> OP, think for a minute if someone broke into your house , stole your electronics and valuables and got caught by the police.
> During the trial, his lawyer begins to lay blame on you because you are affluent and your lifestyles make it hard for the poorer classes to survive.
> What is the judge agreed with his defence and then slaps a charge on you and commit sentences you to take care of the perpertrator's kids for three years.
> 
> Crazy right?
> 
> That's why it doesn't really matter the circumstances. The responsibility for wrongdoing lies squarely on the shoulder of the wrongdoer.


CM, have you read all the thread? Or even just SGC's latest, longer post?

If you make life too hard for someone, she is going to break eventually. Even if it is just breaking inside.

Not to be mean, but . . . Are you scared to death your wife is going to cheat on you? And you are lining up your defenses, i.e., the cheater is always totally to blame?

And your scenario about the rich having responsibility for the poor is giving me an idea for another explosive thread . . .


----------



## nuclearnightmare

jld said:


> Hi, nn. I really had in mind wayward wives. I should have been clear about that.
> 
> I don't know, nn. In my heart I wonder if ww are also bw. Did you read SGC's story? How is she not a betrayed spouse? How was her dh in anyway a husband? He was not only not meeting her emotional needs, I am not even sure he was meeting her physical needs.
> 
> I have known so many women who were not truly loved in my life. My sisters, to an extent my mother and mil, neighbors, can't count them all. And I do blame men.
> 
> Now, the reality is probably the men did not know better . . . and did not try to know. There is selfishness in men. Dh told me once that men are selfish and women are vulnerable. He also told me that, "Woman was created to be loved by Man."
> 
> My own dear, dear dh, has selfishness to him, too. I had to face that last Sat am and wrote about it on my thread. It was really hard to admit that he had taken me for granted. He later said it was a matter of priorities. I wasn't going anywhere, and he wanted to focus on work, the kids, and other things. That really, really hurt.
> 
> I don't think I am a PA kind of gal, but it is pretty amazing I did not end up in an EA during some parts of our marriage. I did not even always have girlfriends to talk to. Sometimes it was just me and the kids, day after day after day. And sometimes I would blow up at them. I remember slapping my daughter across the face several different times. I've apologized, but I think it would have been better for the steam to not have risen in the first place.
> 
> I remember one period of time, it was so hard. We were living in a small apartment in France, and I was just so lonely and so . . . .resourceless? Or that's how it seemed. I would talk to dh and tell him what I thought I needed and he just would say not now, not now, and I just felt so trapped. I was so happy when he got transferred to India, and I said I wanted to go back to America. I really pushed for that. I was so happy to get home, back to my own house and a car I could drive (I don't drive in Europe). I felt so free and so happy to be home.
> 
> And I stopped being frugal and just spent what I wanted. Great time, that year, the year before ds got cancer.


I think selfishness is something women display about as much as men do. I also think there are about as many female abusers in relationships as there are male abusers (am thinking of both physical and emotional abuse here). JLD - agree?


----------



## jld

nuclearnightmare said:


> JLD
> 
> You mention your sisters being mistreated/abused by your family. If that is the case you also must have been mistreated, I would think. Also, sorry but what does DH stand for?


DH stands for dear husband.

I can't talk about it, nn.

Sorry, it's not a big deal. I just can't talk about it. Thanks anyway.


----------



## arbitrator

*My compassion will only begin at the point when a "wayward" has fully come to the repentant realization that what it is that they have so willingly participated in is wrong, and has greatly worked to the detriment of the betrayed, their children, their families, friends, churches, and community; and when they have undeniably sought forgiveness through heartfelt remorse for all of their illicit actions and deeds, then therein is where my forgiveness and compassion truly begins!

John 8:7 ~ And when they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "let any one of you who is without sin cast the first stone." *


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## jld

arbitrator said:


> *My compassion will only begin at the point when a "wayward" has fully come to the repentant realization that what it is that they have so willingly participated in is wrong, and has greatly worked to the detriment of the betrayed, their children, their families, friends, churches, and community; and when they have undeniably sought forgiveness through heartfelt remorse for all of their illicit actions and deeds, then therein is where my forgiveness and compassion truly begins!*


I hear you, arbitrator, but did you read post #286?


----------



## AlmostYoung

calvin said:


> Yeah,I was treated ungodly cruel by her,I have never seen anything like it from her
> before,I doubt I will ever see it again.She's ashamed of how she acted,God it was'nt
> her if you know what I mean.
> She deserve a chance without me mucking it up.
> *It sounds weird showing compassion but at this point it feels right.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It doesn't sound weird to me at all, it sounds like _Real Love_. 

I guess every marriage is different, but I will always have compassion for my W no matter what she says or does in the future. This includes falling into an A. We've been together too long, been through too much for it to be any other way. We've both more than proven our love and commitment to each other.

I even TOLD my W I would forgive her if she cheated. I wonder how many spouses are secure enough to do that?


----------



## jld

nuclearnightmare said:


> I think selfishness is something women display about as much as men do. I also think there are about as many female abusers in relationships as there are male abusers (am thinking of both physical and emotional abuse here). JLD - agree?


I guess I have not seen this, nn. I feel like I have seen a lot more selfish men than selfish women. 

This may be changing, though. I am a homeschooling SAHM, so I may not be seeing all the changes happening in our society. *I don't get out much.* LOL

Some of the things I hear on these boards give a different picture than what I have seen, though. And I tend to stay away from mean people in general. 

Do you want to tell us what you have seen? Have you seen a lot of female abusers? Why do men put up with that?


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> Hi, nn. I really had in mind wayward wives. I should have been clear about that.
> 
> I don't know, nn. *In my heart I wonder if ww are also bw.* Did you read SGC's story? How is she not a betrayed spouse? How was her dh in anyway a husband? He was not only not meeting her emotional needs, I am not even sure he was meeting her physical needs.


I cannot accept that. This, coming from a former WW. My husband was dealing with a lot of mental problems, and really, he still is. But, at the time of my EA, he was at his lowest point. He was INCAPABLE of meeting my emotional needs, and that drove a wedge between us. I resented having to deal with his problems, and I chose the wrong way to deal with it. HE didn't betray me, *I* betrayed *HIM*. And, when it seemed we were too far gone from each other, he turned to someone else, in the same manner. We are now almost 2 years past Dday, and are in a better place now. But, no, I was NOT a BW... not until he also became a WH. Regardless, IMO, suggesting that a WS is a BS just gives them more ammo against the spouse they cheated on. Whether this was your intention or not, the way that particular statement reads, it appears "If you had given me more attention, I wouldn't have cheated on you. Therefore, my cheating is your fault." I know, you will come back and say that's not what you meant at all... But, I can tell you that the unremorseful WS will see it that way, and will run with it. And, a vulnerable BS, if he or she doesn't have a good support network, will believe it is all his or her fault. I'm not attacking you, but hoping that you can understand that ww =/= bw. There are other options to deal with the situation, as have been presented so many times on this site.


----------



## jld

AlmostYoung said:


> It doesn't sound weird to me at all, it sounds like _Real Love_.
> 
> I guess every marriage is different, but I will always have compassion for my W no matter what she says or does in the future. This includes falling into an A. We've been together too long, been through too much for it to be any other way. We've both more than proven our love and commitment to each other.
> 
> I even TOLD my W I would forgive her if she cheated. I wonder how many spouses are secure enough to do that?


Well, you sound like a wonderful, secure man, AY. Would that all women were with a man like you.

There was a question on here a few weeks ago on this subject. I asked dh and he told me he would forgive me, but it would not just be "no big deal." He said he would want to know what his part was, and we would have to go to counseling. I thought that sounded reasonable, and compassionate, and responsible.

And I hope that never happens. And really, with what I have learned on TAM, it need never happen. You have boundaries and you enforce them and you communicate, communicate, communicate with your spouse. And you just say no to any other thought, much less action.

Again, way to go, AY. Be an example here. 

And where were you earlier on this thread? We needed your help!


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

nuclearnightmare said:


> Slowly
> 
> Sorry....coming late to this. We're you/ are you in a physically abusive relathionship? Does he/did he beat you on occasion......


Not exactly, let me explain.
First off- I have anxiety issues from a very physically abusive relationship from the past, which is affecting how I view things or react to certain situations.

In the very beginning of my current relationship there was a couple incidences that I felt were physical (blocking exit paths and things like that) They were discussed and dealt with, he promised to never do it again. This happened years later BUT I would always worry they, or worse, would happen again. He could be emotionally abusive and threatening at times, when drunk, that would make me so scared I would just leave rather then test it to see if it would get that far. Whether or not he would have became physical and that I needed to leave is/was quite an argument between us. I felt I did.

The physical incident that happened because of the A was pretty much from wrestling to get my phone. I don't believe I am in any danger now and have grown enough that I will get help if I ever feel I am again.


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> I cannot accept that. This, coming from a former WW. My husband was dealing with a lot of mental problems, and really, he still is. But, at the time of my EA, he was at his lowest point. He was INCAPABLE of meeting my emotional needs, and that drove a wedge between us. I resented having to deal with his problems, and I chose the wrong way to deal with it. HE didn't betray me, *I* betrayed *HIM*. And, when it seemed we were too far gone from each other, he turned to someone else, in the same manner. We are now almost 2 years past Dday, and are in a better place now. But, no, I was NOT a BW... not until he also became a WH. Regardless, IMO, suggesting that a WS is a BS just gives them more ammo against the spouse they cheated on. Whether this was your intention or not, the way that particular statement reads, it appears "If you had given me more attention, I wouldn't have cheated on you. Therefore, my cheating is your fault." I know, you will come back and say that's not what you meant at all... But, I can tell you that the unremorseful WS will see it that way, and will run with it. And, a vulnerable BS, if he or she doesn't have a good support network, will believe it is all his or her fault. I'm not attacking you, but hoping that you can understand that ww =/= bw. There are other options to deal with the situation, as have been presented so many times on this site.


You sound so angry, Maricha. I don't know your story, but I am willing to listen. Would you like to talk about it?

Maybe I should have made it clear that thread was about remorseful waywards. Except I did say that in many, many of my posts . . .


----------



## Caribbean Man

jld said:


> CM, have you read all the thread? Or even just SGC's latest, longer post?
> 
> If you make life too hard for someone, she is going to break eventually. Even if it is just breaking inside.
> 
> Not to be mean, but . . . Are you scared to death your wife is going to cheat on you? And you are lining up your defenses, i.e., the cheater is always totally to blame?
> 
> And your scenario about the rich having responsibility for the poor is giving me an idea for another explosive thread . . .


Well I was commenting on Blonde's post.

What do you think of her post?
Do you think that she contributed to her husband's affairs and abuse of her?
My point is that through the abuse and the affairs , she stayed faithful to her marriage vows.
She saw it as her responsibility. Her husband's action couldn't
" make her do anything."
She had every reason to go have affairs, her marriage was horrible at that point.
There are probably one million * justifiable * reasons to have affairs, but there's only one reason not to.
Because it's wrong.
If every , single betrayed spouse went out and had revenge affairs , then who would have to accept responsibility for each other's affairs?
They would each have to accept responsibility for their own actions.
Here's another scenario.
If one partner went outside has an affair and either got herpes or AIDS, whose responsibility is that? Should the betrayed spouse refuse to have sex or unprotected sex because of it?
The answer is yes. They're taking responsibility for themselves.
What sort of compassion could they really show that WS when it could potentially endanger them?
That's the effect affairs have on the person who stayed faithful.It endangers them emotionally and psychologically.
Some cases are more complicated, but nevertheless , each person must accept blame for their own decisions and actions.
Similarly, the betrayed spouse should only take responsibility for their action that led up to the affair.
Responsibility for the actual affair itself, lies with the person who had the affair.
Suppose another woman got pregnant after a man's affair ,or in the case of a female , got pregnant, then who should take responsibility for that?
Whose does the child belong to, who has responsibility for that child?
The partner who remained faithful?
Absolutely not.
The busk must stop somewhere.
And a good place for it to stop is right at the doorstep of the person who actually broke his/her vows.
The responsibility for the state of the relationship leading up to the affair rests with both partners, if or when one partner chose to have sex outside of the marriage, the responsibility rests with them. 
Just like if both choose to have sex outside marriage, as happens very often in the case of revenge affairs, the responsibility rests with each person for _their_ actions.

The circumstances, if any,in the relationship that led up to the affair is different and separate to the affair itself.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> You sound so angry, Maricha. I don't know your story, but I am willing to listen. Would you like to talk about it?
> 
> Maybe I should have made it clear that thread was about remorseful waywards. Except I did say that in many, many of my posts . . .


Sigh... I already stated in a previous post that if you want to know my story, it is in my signature. No, I am not angry. Not by a long shot. Yes, jld, I have read your posts in this thread... each and every one of them. Which is why I knew you would say "I am talking about the remorseful spouses". What I am saying is that there are lurkers here, and even some who have actually joined at some point who are not remorseful and when THEY see those words "the ww is also a bw", they will run with it. You, yourself, have already admitted that these particular dynamics are beyond your understanding because YOU have not seen this, yourself. What I am saying is that there ARE women, and even men, who will run with that kind of statement. I have seen it, many times over.

You have a hard time seeing that women can be more selfish than men and that men can be more vulnerable than women, but it's true. There are many selfish women and many vulnerable men. My husband is one such man who is more vulnerable than selfish, and, I'd say that by comparison, I am more selfish than vulnerable. It's not right. It's not wrong. It is who we are. We only need to be careful to make the right choices.

But, I find it curious that you ask others such probing questions about their own vulnerabilities, but when asked about your own, it's "I can't talk about that." Of course, you don't have to share. No one has to, really. It's just an interesting observation, that's all.

But, as I said, my story is on here, and it's been almost 2 years now since Dday, and we are doing well now. So, no, not angry at all.


----------



## AlmostYoung

nuclearnightmare said:


> JLD
> 
> Do you think that some people are not really a good match for anyone? I.e. they more or less cannot be faithful, no matter who they marry.


I think so. They are called serial cheaters. Hard (and stupid?) to stand by them.


----------



## arbitrator

jld said:


> I hear you, arbitrator, but did you read post #286?


*And much like the woman who was brought before Jesus for condemnation in John 8:7, the woman in post #286 also showed remorse for what she had done, and I greatly commend her for that!

Where I draw the line is against those who show no remorse whatsoever and greatly cling to their well-cloaked mantra of self-entitlement. There is absolutely no honor in that!

Inasfar as my XW is concerned, she still greatly lives in denial and self-servingly and unremorsefully thinks that she did the right thing in seeking and perpetrating her dual EA's/PA's. And I'm rather positive that I, in some way, was a party to her straying. I cannot deny that fact!

We are now divorced and I have fully forgiven her, despite the fact that she's never even confessed nor asked for forgiveness. And as a Christian man, it's the very least that I can really do.

Forgiving her was rather easy. But forgetting about her clandestine actions and the resultant pain to me and my kids is something that I will long remember! But when she finally and fully confesses, then I will see fit to lay that final burden down and forget about it entirely!*


----------



## Lyris

Maricha75 said:


> But, I find it curious that you ask others such probing questions about their own vulnerabilities, but when asked about your own, it's "I can't talk about that." Of course, you don't have to share. No one has to, really. It's just an interesting observation, that's all.
> 
> But, as I said, my story is on here, and it's been almost 2 years now since Dday, and we are doing well now. So, no, not angry at all.


I noticed that too. Jld you have been here for a month. I'm not sure why you seem to feel it is your job to draw people out and encourage them to talk. People are here to talk, or not. They don't need you to ask leading questions.

People like Maricha and Joe have been on these boards for years. People know their stories. It's somehow socially tone deaf to suggest they are angry, give them advice and ask them if they'd like to talk about it. They have. They've worked through many issues and helped a lot of people already. 

You have been here for a month and you have over 700 posts. Maybe you should slow down and read more for a while. You might find you get less distressing assumptions made about your relationship that way.


----------



## jld

Yes, CM, I agree that none of what happened to Blonde was her fault. I have said, or thought I have said that, in other places. I feel nothing but compassion for her, and have seen her situation IRL.

I have heard of this situation, serial cheating husbands, much more than serial cheating wives. I am not saying it is not a problem, too, just that I have not seen it as much.

And yes, the decision to cheat is the decision of the cheater. They have to own that.

I think, as other posters have said, that to go beyond assigning blame, to understanding, is probably the key to real restoration.

Have your read soulpotato's posts?


----------



## jld

Maricha, I remember now your saying that your story was in your signature. I forgot about that. Sorry.

I wish I could answer that question. Maybe someday I will be able to.

And you are right, no one has to answer any question.

And really, no one has to read any post, either.


----------



## AlmostYoung

When someone steps out of their marriage to have their needs (or wants) met, it is always a sad thing to me. It could be due to things the BS did or did not do, it could be they are broken people inside, or it could be they are searching for something they are not even sure of. 

Or it could just be that perfect storm mentioned by a previous poster. Either way, how could I not have compassion for this person? Because they may have caused me great pain is not reason enough for me.


----------



## jld

AlmostYoung said:


> When someone steps out of their marriage to have their needs (or wants) met, it is always a sad thing to me. It could be due to things the BS did or did not do, it could be they are broken people inside, or it could be they are searching for something they are not even sure of.
> 
> Or it could just be that perfect storm mentioned by a previous poster. Either way, how could I not have compassion for this person? Because they may have caused me great pain is not reason enough for me.


You are so compassionate, AY. How did you become this way? Or is it just how you have always been?


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## AlmostYoung

jld said:


> Maybe I should have made it clear that thread was about remorseful waywards. Except I did say that in many, many of my posts . . .


Why would you not have compassion for an un-remorseful WW? See my previous post. 

Me thinks you my be bowing to the pressure of those replying to you. If this is the case, why would you?


----------



## AlmostYoung

jld said:


> You are so compassionate, AY. How did you become this way? Or is it just how you have always been?


Mainly because of my experience with my W. Two years ago her (abusive) Mom died, causing W to analyze her entire life and spin into crises. And also to pull away from me big time. 

She is in great pain... some due to my actions/inactions, most not.

It's usually really not as simple as "They chose to cheat".


----------



## jld

AlmostYoung said:


> Why would you not have compassion for an un-remorseful WW? See my previous post.
> 
> Me thinks you my be bowing to the pressure of those replying to you. If this is the case, why would you?


You feel like everyone deserves compassion, even an unremorseful spouse. Is that right? Well, I don't think we have discussed that here. Don't you think there needs to be remorse? How do you move forward in a healthy way without people taking responsibility for their actions?

Why would I bow to pressure? Lack of strength. Shock at the lack of compassion. Should I? No. 

I wanted to stand up for the wayward wives I know on here that I think are very nice and have tried to repair their relationships. I think it unfortunate that they are to some degree wearing a scarlet letter.

But instead of standing up for them and staying standing up, I ended up sitting down.

You're right. I believe in compassion for reformed wayward wives, and maybe reformed waywards, period. And I think everyone is imperfect and could stand to judge less, and try to understand more.


----------



## jld

AlmostYoung said:


> Mainly because of my experience with my W. Two years ago her (abusive) Mom died, causing W to analyze her entire life and spin into crises. And also to pull away from me big time.
> 
> She is in great pain... some due to my actions/inactions, most not.
> 
> It's usually really not as simple as "They chose to cheat".


This is exactly what my dh said yesterday. He said you have to look at the whole picture. But many do not want to do that. They want to make it simple.


----------



## Lyris

Except you don't know them, these remorseful wayward wives. You can't really know anyone on a message board. People can type anything at all, you only get a tiny percentage of who they really are.

And I believe everyone deserves compassion as imperfect human beings. But that doesn't meant they deserve to live free from judgement or censure or guilt when they hurt another person.

If I was unfaithful to my husband he would be devastated. It would hurt him so badly. And if I did something to hurt him to that extent I would not want his compassion or forgiveness as I would feel completely undeserving. And I know that although maybe he might be able to understand and forgive in time, he would never love me again. Sometimes things are broken and can't be repaired. Me cheating would destroy our marriage and the very special bond between us. 

Women are not weak. We do not deserve more forgiving treatment than men. To suggest we do is to insult us.


----------



## Caribbean Man

I think that taking responsibility for one's action and casting blame are two completely separate different things. One is counterproductive and the other is absolutely necessary.
Something else we're not factoring in this dialogue is that every infidelity story is different ,every BS as well as every WS is different.

People are different.

Some betrayed spouses are fully dependent on their wayward spouse, whether emotionally or financially ,and the other options look grim to them. They don't want to start over again. This happens a lot with SAHM's. So in cases like that, they simply have no other option but the be 
* compassionate * , accept responsibility for their spouse's indiscretions, and live with the shame and embarrassment. Technically, the husband doesn't even have to face responsibility for what he's done because there are no_ real_ consequences for his actions.

Some betrayed spouses want to forgive , show compassion and give it another try. But everytime they try to get intimate with their WS , they feel vulnerable , their mind triggers , and the movies start. Some men experience erectile dysfunction, some women lose sexual attraction,and the desire for sex with their wayward husband is _absolute zero_,[ or -273.15°C, which is the lowest possible temperature in thermodynamics.] This in turn triggers more problems in the relationship, the domino effect. Despite counselling , they simply give up because it's too hard for them.

The converse is also true. Some WS feel deep remorse and despite all the compassion, love and forgiveness from their betrayed spouse,
they feel a deep sense of shame and self doubt might step in. That in turn would have a deleterious effect on the relationship , especially if the relationship was a great one before and the betrayed spouse was a loving husband / wife. They try hard to get back to the heights of the relationship before, but it akes really hard work. Negative stuff like resentment might come in.

The dynamics of each case are as different as the faces of the persons involved.
It's not that people don't want to have compassion, in fact , the vast majority right here on TAM will, and also have done so.

But compassion isn't going to fix the fundamental problems either in the person or the relationship both before and after the affair.
The negative feelings that a BS expresses after the affair are a necessary part of the healing process. I think they act that way because 
_they still love and care for their wayward spouse , and their family's stability is being threatened from within and without._

How else could they honestly express their deep frustrations?

If they showed indifference towards their spouse's betrayal, then it wouldn't be love , neither compassion, neither caring.

We're all only human, after all, both the BS and the WS.

It is good for the BS to show compassion to a WS.
It is best if a BS, accepts responsibility for their actions, recognize that what they did was wrong and work FIRSTLY on themselves , and then the relationship.


----------



## love=pain

Some waywards can earn compassion not for what they did or for the circumstances in their marriage that may have made cheating something they would consider.
They earn compassion by taking full responsibility for their choice, humbling themselves before their spouse and the willingness to do anything and everything to rebuild their marriage.

Those that don't don't deserve anything except divorce.


----------



## jld

2ntnuf said:


> In the U.S., which is all I can comment on, this is not true. There is so much help out there in all aspects for a woman with children, it's incredible. You must want and look for it. Will life be more of a challenge? Yes, but there are so many who have done this, just in my area, the statement cannot be true in all cases.
> 
> 
> In the second case, you must add the WS in this, for it to be true. How many WS's have done things to the BS that are heinous, in the name of revenge? If you want compassion, you must give it. It may not be returned, but it's the only chance it will be likely. Of course, someone has to start giving compassion. *I think self-righteous pride is really the sticking point*.


Would you like to elaborate?


----------



## jld

2ntnuf said:


> I'll try.
> 
> Each of us, uses self-righteous pride to justify any actions we take which are contradictory to our beliefs or society's beliefs.
> 
> One must justify these actions which go against our personal beliefs, so as not to lose our minds from shame and guilt, oneself and society place on us.
> 
> Compassion, by default, becomes a casualty, when blame occurs.
> 
> Not even sure if I got this right. It's a tough concept. I think I did alright.


Okay, not sure if I am getting this right, but I will try.

People are too proud to be the first one to say they're sorry? 

But if either one said it, and meant it, it could get the ball rolling to forgiveness?

Is that it?


----------



## jld

2ntnuf said:


> Yes, it* *could* be, but there must be remorse shown. That goes beyond the level of just say, "sorry, I messed up". That's the problem. There must be real remorse shown and amends must be made, sometimes these must be done for us to forgive ourselves. It's really complicated.
> 
> * saying sorry
> 
> 
> It's not just pride. It's more than just pride. That's why I wrote self-righteous. It's deep because we had to believe things in order to do things against our very own consciences, better judgment(struggling very hard to find the best word choice and these don't really do it because it's more than just conscience. These are deeply engrained things we believe with all our hearts, minds and souls in some cases)


It's like you have to really commit to reality. Not seeing things the way you want to see them, but seeing them the way they are.

I used to think that if people had affairs, it was because they were just swept along. But from reading these marriage boards, I see that there is a choice made. It doesn't just have to happen. That should be empowering.

But I still feel compassion for both sides. I think both persons bring their weaknesses to the relationship. Compassion doesn't mean we don't acknowledge something is wrong. It just means we recognize the humanity of the person, I think.

I am not surprised it takes a long time to work through all of these issues. There must be so many layers, like what you mentioned with the deeply ingrained beliefs.


----------



## jld

I really am. And I am trying to express myself honestly, too, but it is hard to do it without offending someone out there, lol.

My marriage has been such a joy for me, such a deliverance. And I would like that for other people, too. I really wasn't that familiar with affairs before I stumbled onto marriage sites a few months ago. I have always had total trust in dh, and he in me. 

We don't try to control one another against the other's will. I know my sister used to do those kinds of things with her boyfriends. Once she got up early in the morning to go and feel her boyfriend's car hood, to see if it was hot and he had been out late after telling her he was staying in for the night. I didn't understand why she did not just break up with him. If there is no trust, why continue? But I guess she did not see it that way.

I think this control issue is part of the problem. I'm not quite sure how, but I think it is. 

Yes, by humanity I mean human weakness. I think we are all much more fragile than we realize. And maybe that is why it is so hard to forgive; it takes great strength to forgive and show compassion. And how many of us are really so strong? It is so hard to be mature when others just seem so selfish.

And that does not mean there do not have to be consequences and accountability.

2ntnuf, I think it is easy from the outside to see answers. But I am sure it feels really different from the inside.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> Okay, not sure if I am getting this right, but I will try.
> 
> People are too proud to be the first one to say they're sorry?
> 
> But if either one said it, and meant it, it could get the ball rolling to forgiveness?
> 
> Is that it?


Saying sorry first or often IME- bad, very bad...

I used to be like t this: Women feel more guilt, study suggests 

My continually feeling bed, feeling guilty, being sorry for whatever thing that day that H might decide to criticize ENABLED him to continue to be behave badly and avoid accountability.

I apologize *extremely rarely *to him nowadays and I consider this a sign of personal recovery and healthy boundaries. He can no longer use my propensity to easily feel guilty blame me and evade accountablity. NOW I have a backbone and I am assertive. Our marriage is much better for it.


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> Saying sorry first or often IME- bad, very bad...
> 
> I used to be like t this: Women feel more guilt, study suggests
> 
> My continually feeling bed, feeling guilty, being sorry for whatever thing that day that H might decide to criticize ENABLED him to continue to be behave badly and avoid accountability.
> 
> I apologize *extremely rarely *to him nowadays and I consider this a sign of personal recovery and healthy boundaries. He can no longer use my propensity to easily feel guilty blame me and evade accountablity. NOW I have a backbone and I am assertive. Our marriage is much better for it.


That is very healthy in your situation, Blonde. And I read the link. It really is not surprising. 

I feel guilty a lot. I spend a lot of time wondering if I have hurt someone's feelings, and if I should apologize. I don't think it is a bad thing if the other person appreciates the sensitivity. It is when I am dealing with users (and I am not very good about recognizing them) that it becomes a problem. Though once I recognize someone as insincere, I am pretty much done with them.

Dh, otoh, doesn't worry a bit about people's feelings. He says what he thinks and doesn't worry how it lands. Sounds like that study.

And this sensitivity is of course why some women get used by men. Their trust is abused. And it can happen to men, too. I am just not as familiar with that.

Thanks again for sharing.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> My sister was abused and beaten so many times. So many. And nothing but judgment from my family.
> 
> She's 50 now and stilll single.


just catching up on the thread. There is a saying "wounded people wound people". Part of why I stayed with H so long is that I know he is a wounded broken person and I had a kind of inappropriate compassion for him where I made excuses for him in my own head.



> As SA said, we all come out of our own worldview, our own life experience. I came from a home with a strict, strict father and dominant men (four brothers and four brothers-in-law). I feel like women and children have to be protected from men. That is just my natural instinct.


Ditto to some extent. My dad was a scary violent alcoholic during my formative years.




> Thanks so much for conversing with me, Blonde. Again, I feel so much compassion for you. I have many children, too (5) and I homeschool. But my husband is very, very different from yours. I truly wish for better for you, and very soon. God bless.


Things are better now- for today- and I take one day at a time. 

I don't homeschool the kids anymore. The three minors who are still living at home are doing great in public school.


----------



## Blonde

Vega said:


> By the same token, MOST of the time, it is the WS who _uses_ the (real or perceived) 'faults' of the BS to justify cheating in the first place.
> 
> Vega


^^this

Jld, can you see how saying "sorry" to someone who will use that sorry against you could be dangerous?


----------



## Blonde

Vega said:


> YES!!! :iagree:
> 
> And, if you DID show them compassion, you'd be seen as 'weak' by them!
> 
> Vega


^^and this

I used to feel like my feeling deeply hurt and wounded was like blood in the water to a shark for my H. To this day if a teenage daughter sheds tears, he will lean his head back and belly laugh and mock them. (You better believe mama bear comes out and asserts herself in those moments...)


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> just catching up on the thread. There is a saying "wounded people wound people". Part of why I stayed with H so long is that I know he is a wounded broken person and I had a kind of inappropriate compassion for him where I made excuses for him in my own head.


I can see where a thread titled compassion for waywards could be a trigger for someone in your situation. The topic is so complex. 

When people talk calmly, and just share genuinely, we can learn so much.

Maybe the wounded brokenness is too great to heal in your dh. I don't think my sister can heal. She just does not want to face anything. Just way too painful.


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> ^^this
> 
> Jld, can you see how saying "sorry" to someone who will use that sorry against you could be dangerous?


TOTALLY. 

And it doesn't even have to be in a marriage. Some people are just users. They have no sincerity.


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> ^^and this
> 
> I used to feel like my feeling deeply hurt and wounded was like blood in the water to a shark for my H. To this day if a teenage daughter sheds tears, he will lean his head back and belly laugh and mock them. (You better believe mama bear comes out and asserts herself in those moments...)


How do you stand that, Blonde?


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> I can see where a thread titled compassion for waywards could be a trigger for someone in your situation. The topic is so complex.
> 
> When people talk calmly, and just share genuinely, we can learn so much.
> 
> Maybe the wounded brokenness is too great to heal in your dh. I don't think my sister can heal. She just does not want to face anything. Just way too painful.


Can she still be loved? 

I have some hope that being faithful and loving my H will bring him some healing even though he is, like your sister, resistant to introspection and recovery

Behavior modification has worked, (one day at a time). He knows that the consequences are going to be huge and permanent if he steps over certain lines. No guarantees if the little head and lack of appropriate boundaries and impulse control will rule tomorrow (and change forever his life as he knows it) but today, we are good.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> How do you stand that, Blonde?


I imagine him having partial custody and me not being there to stand up for them. They are safer with us both under one roof. And they have turned out to be extremely discerning young ladies! (Eat your heart out PUA gamers! My daughters see right through you and aren't buying it!)


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> Can she still be loved?
> 
> I have some hope that being faithful and loving my H will bring him some healing even though he is, like your sister, resistant to introspection and recovery
> 
> Behavior modification has worked, (one day at a time). He knows that the consequences are going to be huge and permanent if he steps over certain lines. No guarantees if the little head and lack of appropriate boundaries and impulse control will rule tomorrow (and change forever his life as he knows it) but today, we are good.


Wow! You are really tough! Good for you!

I have to go and get pizza now for my boys, but I will come back and reply to you and 2ntnuf. Thanks!


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> Can she still be loved?
> 
> I have some hope that being faithful and loving my H will bring him some healing even though he is, like your sister, resistant to introspection and recovery
> 
> Behavior modification has worked, (one day at a time). He knows that the consequences are going to be huge and permanent if he steps over certain lines. No guarantees if the little head and lack of appropriate boundaries and impulse control will rule tomorrow (and change forever his life as he knows it) but today, we are good.


I can only imagine the work you have had to go through to get to where you two are now. And I am sure it has all been on your shoulders. I bet you are tired.

Even with a loving spouse, the person still has to want to change, no?


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> I imagine him having partial custody and me not being there to stand up for them. They are safer with us both under one roof. And they have turned out to be extremely discerning young ladies! (Eat your heart out PUA gamers! My daughters see right through you and aren't buying it!)


And this is really it, isn't it? We would do anything for our kids. Just how moms are. 

And lol on the PUA! Way to go, Blonde's daughters!


----------



## calvin

jld said:


> I really am. And I am trying to express myself honestly, too, but it is hard to do it without offending someone out there, lol.
> 
> My marriage has been such a joy for me, such a deliverance. And I would like that for other people, too. I really wasn't that familiar with affairs before I stumbled onto marriage sites a few months ago. I have always had total trust in dh, and he in me.
> 
> We don't try to control one another against the other's will. I know my sister used to do those kinds of things with her boyfriends. Once she got up early in the morning to go and feel her boyfriend's car hood, to see if it was hot and he had been out late after telling her he was staying in for the night. I didn't understand why she did not just break up with him. If there is no trust, why continue? But I guess she did not see it that way.
> 
> I think this control issue is part of the problem. I'm not quite sure how, but I think it is.
> 
> Yes, by humanity I mean human weakness. I think we are all much more fragile than we realize. And maybe that is why it is so hard to forgive; it takes great strength to forgive and show compassion. And how many of us are really so strong? It is so hard to be mature when others just seem so selfish.
> 
> And that does not mean there do not have to be consequences and accountability.
> 
> 2ntnuf, I think it is easy from the outside to see answers. But I am sure it feels really different from the inside.


 Trust is a tricky one after you've been betrayed,it doesn't all come back but I feel 99%
of it comes back,its rare that I check my wifes cell phone or anything else now,I don't have
a gut feeling that anything is wrong and she's a terrible liar and actor.
She knows what she stands to lose and I know she would never hurt me like that again.
I feel that's what bothers her the most,seeing a strong man brought to his knees without
a single punch.
Strength and weakness are funny.
You can be confident,solid and sturdy but crumple when something like this happens to you.
Same thing with weakness,things can look hopless,you feel alone,defeated and just want to
give up and call it quits but somewhere inside you strength still smolders and slowly it ignites
again and you pull yourself out of the dark hole you've been in.
Its in the BS and in a truely remorseful spouse also.
When you see your WS beat themselves up over and over for their fvck up how
could you not show compassion?
In my case my wife was acting strange six months after the A,I kept an eye on her and
caught her with a bunch of prescription pills in bed,she never had a chance to take them
I took them away.
She saw the pain I was in and thought she could take it away by ending it all.
We know we depend,need and love eachother.
That's has not happend again.
Compassion,we never know when we will need some shown to us,do we?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

calvin said:


> Trust is a tricky one after you've been betrayed,it doesn't all come back but I feel 99%
> of it comes back,its rare that I check my wifes cell phone or anything else now,I don't have
> a gut feeling that anything is wrong and she's a terrible liar and actor.
> She knows what she stands to lose and I know she would never hurt me like that again.
> I feel that's what bothers her the most,seeing a strong man brought to his knees without
> a single punch.
> Strength and weakness are funny.
> You can be confident,solid and sturdy but crumple when something like this happens to you.
> Same thing with weakness,things can look hopless,you feel alone,defeated and just want to
> give up and call it quits but somewhere inside you strength still smolders and slowly it ignites
> again and you pull yourself out of the dark hole you've been in.
> Its in the BS and in a truely remorseful spouse also.
> When you see your WS beat themselves up over and over for their fvck up how
> could you not show compassion?
> In my case my wife was acting strange six months after the A,I kept an eye on her and
> caught her with a bunch of prescription pills in bed,she never had a chance to take them
> I took them away.
> She saw the pain I was in and thought she could take it away by ending it all.
> We know we depend,need and love eachother.
> That's has not happend again.
> *Compassion,we never know when we will need some shown to us,do we?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gosh, that was moving, calvin. Thanks so much for writing that.

You really love your wife. And she really does feel bad.

That bolded part is kind of the theme of this thread. Thanks for writing that.

I'm so glad you've been able to put things back together. So glad.


----------



## calvin

jld said:


> Gosh, that was moving, calvin. Thanks so much for writing that.
> 
> You really love your wife. And she really does feel bad.
> 
> That bolded part is kind of the theme of this thread. Thanks for writing that.
> 
> I'm so glad you've been able to put things back together. So glad.


 I wasn't all that great,quite a few times in the last two years since her A I was in and out so
many times she never knew what I was going to do,divorce or stay?
Hell I didn't know,I backslid a lot and she was in a bad limbo.
I wanted her to feel some of it to I guess,very stupid of me.
Little by little things are coming together.
Its strange but it is a different marriage now,it will be better I think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

2ntnuf said:


> jld,
> 
> You do realise there are many folks hurting here badly. Many are taking you seriously and trying to be understanding. Is it compassion that causes you to write about others sorrows?
> 
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here? I want you to know, when I read that, it really hurt my feelings. I feel like I've been used.
> 
> Can you give a little further explanation about this writing of yours? I really am struggling not to be judgmental about that.


Oh, no! I did not mean that! I mean that I am writing on my thread in LTS! And I am replying to posts, and writing threads! 

My goodness, I did not mean that at all! I am not a fiction writer or anything! I am not a writer at all. It is just what he wants me to do!

Please forgive any misunderstanding!


----------



## jld

calvin said:


> I wasn't all that great,quite a few times in the last two years since her A I was in and out so
> many times she never knew what I was going to do,divorce or stay?
> Hell I didn't know,I backslid a lot and she was in a bad limbo.
> I wanted her to feel some of it to I guess,very stupid of me.
> Little by little things are coming together.
> Its strange but it is a different marriage now,it will be better I think.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, that must have been hard. My gosh, I bet that was hard on both of you.

I hope you will be strong in the broken places, calvin. You have both worked so hard. I really hope it works out for you.


----------



## jld

2ntnuf said:


> "You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people, all of the time." I hope I got that right. It's not mine, but I've heard it many times. If I knew where it was from, I'd acknowledge here.
> *Very good advice!*
> 
> 
> That's wonderful. I don't imagine you'd be together as long as you have, if you did. It's intuitive. And, we all want to better what we have. Has this site helped your marriage, at all?
> 
> *Well, I certainly have learned a lot. I was grateful to him before, and I am truly even more grateful now. If not for dh, I think I would just have to remain single. He is really the match for me.*
> 
> 
> jld, is that a control issue? It seems like you are really trying to help your sister. It's such a nice thing to do to help others. It does give us some comfort when we need to make amends and forgive ourselves. And sometimes, it's just that folks are so compassionate, they just have a need to help and without it being filled, they are not complete. I take it you are one of the latter?
> 
> *I hope so. I try. But I cannot be all things to all people.*
> I think it would help folks here to help your sister, if you talked about it a bit more. There are plenty of good folks here.
> 
> I personally don't believe that's a control issue. It's a trust issue for certain. If her boyfriend has not earned her trust, she doesn't have to give it. That's providing she is able to trust. Some lovely folks just have a lower capacity to trust due to previous life experiences and things beyond their control.
> *I know. Some people have really been through a lot. It is very sad.*
> A control issue would be if she took his keys and hid them, told him there would be serious consequences for doing something that is not harmful to her or the relationship, disconnecting wires in his car, hiding his shoes or clothing, threatening him with violence, putting something in his laundry that makes his clothing unwearable, etc. I think you get the picture, don't you?
> 
> 
> *Yes, and I think she has done some of these things.*
> 
> 
> Yes, we all have weaknesses. I have a huge weakness for pizza. Alright, settle down everyone. I don't need to be teased. hahaha I have to literally stay away from it. As soon as I smell it, my mouth waters. I know I have a weakness for it. I struggle, so I stay away. I have to watch even eating one slice, because, like alcohol, one leads to two.  Need I say more?
> *LOL We all have them!*
> It's part of my upbringing. When I was a child, mum always cooked. We rarely ate out. We generally had pizza out, once every couple years, literally. We only ate fast food hamburgers and fries when we were on vacation, once every five years or so, again, literally.
> 
> I was taught to fast and abstain by my religious upbringing and the pressures of the doctrine, from an early age. Many things which others think are a weakness, are literally no big deal for me.
> *Again, do you think society has changed because of the lack of sacrifice required now? For better or for worse?*
> What weaknesses do you have, jld?
> 
> *I love chocolate chips. And I am impatient. *
> 
> I agree. It's those that are the issue, aren't they? How would a compassionate person, who deeply loves their spouse deal with that? What would those consequences look like? How would a person know when enough was enough? How would a compassionate person show remorse for permanent emotional damage to the one they damaged for life?
> 
> *I don't know. But I understand why divorce is necessary.
> 
> I think transparency is really important in marriage. It is the only thing that builds trust. And trust is the main ingredient for intimacy, and intimacy is what makes a marriage.
> 
> I can understand why someone would not be able to trust again. I'm sure it is very hard.*
> 
> At the crux of all of this is emotions. We as humans, must have emotions to be compassionate. Aren't those same emotions the very ones that caused the trouble in the first place? If a person is extremely compassionate, does it then equate to the amount of absence of compassion, in the case of severely emotionally and mentally harmed folks?
> *Okay, maybe I get this now. Yes, some people cannot be compassionate. Gosh, these issues are complex. And yes, the compassion has to be well-placed. We need to use reason to guide our hearts.*
> Is it the lack of personal emotional connection to others who have similar experiences that enables the ability to discern answers from the ashes?*Okay, this one I was not sure of. I think you mean that if a person is outside the situation, it is easier to see answers. For example, some people here have great insight into marital problems. It can be easier for them to see if they are not the ones experiencing the problems.*


Is this better, 2ntnuf? I couldn't get it to work the other way. Sorry.


----------



## turnera

AlmostYoung said:


> Why would you not have compassion for an un-remorseful WW? See my previous post.
> 
> Me thinks you my be bowing to the pressure of those replying to you. If this is the case, why would you?


You can have COMPASSION for ANYONE. What you do next, however, is the critical question.


----------



## turnera

2ntnuf said:


> Yes, it* *could* be, but there must be remorse shown. That goes beyond the level of just say, "sorry, I messed up". That's the problem. There must be real remorse shown and amends must be made, sometimes these must be done for us to forgive ourselves. It's really complicated.
> 
> * saying sorry
> 
> 
> It's not just pride. It's more than just pride. That's why I wrote self-righteous. It's deep because we had to believe things in order to do things against our very own consciences, better judgment(struggling very hard to find the best word choice and these don't really do it because it's more than just conscience. These are deeply engrained things we believe with all our hearts, minds and souls in some cases)


To get back to a WS, however, this is my sticking point. I often tell BSs here that if they are considering taking back their WS, they must insist that the WS go to his/her parents, admit what they did, and ask for forgiveness.

Why is that? 

Because of this pride 2nt speaks of. I've seen enough WSs and FWs to see that, if he/she isn't willing to do this one thing, then they aren't really remorseful. They are TALKING a good talk. But words are easy. To look your parents in the eyes and say 'this is what I did to my wife/husband,' well, that's a pretty strong indicator to me that the WS is now a FWS, that he/she gets it, and is MUCH less likely to cheat again.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> To get back to a WS, however, this is my sticking point. I often tell BSs here that if they are considering taking back their WS, they must insist that the WS go to his/her parents, admit what they did, and ask for forgiveness.
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> Because of this pride 2nt speaks of. I've seen enough WSs and FWs to see that, if he/she isn't willing to do this one thing, then they aren't really remorseful. They are TALKING a good talk. But words are easy. To look your parents in the eyes and say 'this is what I did to my wife/husband,' well, that's a pretty strong indicator to me that the WS is now a FWS, that he/she gets it, and is MUCH less likely to cheat again.


Wow. That is powerful, turnera. You really know how to handle these things!


----------



## soulpotato

AlmostYoung said:


> I even TOLD my W I would forgive her if she cheated. I wonder how many spouses are secure enough to do that?


I've told my own partner this as well. I told her even if I'd never cheated, I still would've forgiven her if she had - even had it gone physical. Because she has shown me more kindness, compassion, love, and acceptance than anyone. She is a good person. (Not that it wouldn't devastate me, especially after we'd brought things to a much better place, etc.)


----------



## turnera

*shrug*

I just really understand psychology. And psychology is a science, just like any other science that you have proven methods, initiator, and outcomes for. ABC causes XYZ. Unless you have a mental disease, your ABC will cause XYZ. Once you know that, you can predict people's outcomes.


----------



## turnera

soulpotato said:


> I've told my own partner this as well. I told her even if I'd never cheated, I still would've forgiven her if she had - even had it gone physical. Because she has shown me more kindness, compassion, love, and acceptance than anyone. She is a good person. (Not that it wouldn't devastate me, especially after we'd brought things to a much better place, etc.)


I told my H 35 years ago that, if I ever caught him cheating, he'd never see me again. About 5 years ago, I asked him why he never cheated, like so many of his 'friends' had, and he brought up that one statement I made, when we were dating. He said he wasn't willing to lose me, so he never cheated.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

jld said:


> DH stands for dear husband.
> 
> I can't talk about it, nn.
> 
> Sorry, it's not a big deal. I just can't talk about it. Thanks anyway.


I'm sorry JLD. My heart goes out to you and your sisters.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> *shrug*
> 
> I just really understand psychology. And psychology is a science, just like any other science that you have proven methods, initiator, and outcomes for. ABC causes XYZ. Unless you have a mental disease, your ABC will cause XYZ. Once you know that, you can predict people's outcomes.


It's okay to be proud of yourself, turnera.  You know a lot. And I bet being a mom was part of gaining that knowledge.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> It's okay to be proud of yourself, turnera.  You know a lot. And I bet being a mom was part of gaining that knowledge.


Not proud of myself. Just explaining why I think it's a smart way to approach this. It's hard to argue with science.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

jld said:


> I guess I have not seen this, nn. I feel like I have seen a lot more selfish men than selfish women.
> 
> This may be changing, though. I am a homeschooling SAHM, so I may not be seeing all the changes happening in our society. *I don't get out much.* LOL
> 
> Some of the things I hear on these boards give a different picture than what I have seen, though. And I tend to stay away from mean people in general.
> 
> Do you want to tell us what you have seen? Have you seen a lot of female abusers? Why do men put up with that?


My former daughter in law is/was a fundamentally mean person. Beyond selfish. That experience got me interested personality disorders, what they are, different types, percent of population that has them etc. Anyway there clearly was something like that wrong with her. Ill probably never in my life meet a better candidate for sociopath than her. More likely some form of extreme narcissism. The phrase raised earlier is perfect -- those that expect compassion from others but are incapable of offering it. Her brand of abuse was entirely emotional, but could be devastating. At the end of her marriage to my son I saw her operate in that mode. She even tried a little of it on me. It was fascinating to see her complete lack of self awareness -- entirely unable to put herself in anyone else's shoes. Zero empathy. Entitled galore. The rules were made for other people, not her.

Many reading this will recognize men they have known with the exact same characteristics. Both sexes are well represented in these categories of disorders. The men specialize more in violence certainly, but have not cornered the market on abuse or selfishness. If you go to the Coping with infidelity forum you'll
Be able to read the BH describe some of these women.

So anyway, I see the worst of us as a group of people well represented by both genders.


----------



## soulpotato

Blonde said:


> ^^this
> 
> Jld, can you see how saying "sorry" to someone who will use that sorry against you could be dangerous?


If someone finds him/herself in that situation, they should just walk away. No R. But I'm sure there are BSs who would find that difficult.


----------



## turnera

> My former daughter in law is/was a fundamentally mean person. Beyond selfish.


I know a girl like that. She became one of DD23's friends, through acquaintances. Soon learned that the girl was a self-proclaimed 'mean girl.' Boy, is she! She told DD that, with no qualms. She told one girl she wouldn't be in the girl's wedding unless the girl made HER the maid of honor. She cheated on her Nice Guy husband, moved in with the AP, and was planning to 'give' her two kids to the exH so she could start a 'new' family with her new husband. She threatened to get her best friend's husband fired from his job if the friend didn't do what she wanted. Her new husband has to buy her something every single week, like the new BMW she got last month. I could go on.

Yes, people like this do exist.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

jld said:


> Yes, CM, I agree that none of what happened to Blonde was her fault. I have said, or thought I have said that, in other places. I feel nothing but compassion for her, and have seen her situation IRL.
> 
> I have heard of this situation, serial cheating husbands, much more than serial cheating wives. I am not saying it is not a problem, too, just that I have not seen it as much.
> 
> And yes, the decision to cheat is the decision of the cheater. They have to own that.
> 
> I think, as other posters have said, that to go beyond assigning blame, to understanding, is probably the key to real restoration.
> 
> Have your read soulpotato's posts?


There you are correct. Data consistently shows men's rate of physical cheating exceeds women's by 10 to 20 % points.


----------



## soulpotato

2ntnuf said:


> Sorry, guys. Never tell your spouse you are okay with an affair. Never.
> 
> I did that as well. She did NOT understand the context in which I meant that. I told her everyone has weaknesses. I told her we all slip at something. The trouble with that is, once is not enough, because they saw how easy it was to be forgiven.
> 
> ...
> 
> You never tell a spouse that, never. In any case, how would you know if you could forgive her, unless you went through it before? I did in my first marriage, many times. So, I learned to forgive for some things. Other things are much more difficult. Some, are impossible for some people.
> 
> I just read SoulPotato's post on page 24 and thought of this.
> 
> Oops. I should have quoted it. I guess you'll have to look if you are interested enough.


I did not say I'd be OKAY with it, I said I'd forgive her. I know I would, for reasons I've mentioned plus having already some slight experience with her affections being elsewhere and boundaries (emotional) being crossed. I did make sure to stress to her that I'd be very upset and not ok, but after threads here talking about it, I felt it important that she know where my heart was and that there'd be no hypocrisy from me. She's not the sort of person to take that and run with it. She doesn't want to hurt me or set us back, and I've come a long way in straightening myself out. Not to mention, we're way more connected and cognizant than we used to be.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

turnera said:


> I know a girl like that. She became one of DD23's friends, through acquaintances. Soon learned that the girl was a self-proclaimed 'mean girl.' Boy, is she! She told DD that, with no qualms. She told one girl she wouldn't be in the girl's wedding unless the girl made HER the maid of honor. She cheated on her Nice Guy husband, moved in with the AP, and was planning to 'give' her two kids to the exH so she could start a 'new' family with her new husband. She threatened to get her best friend's husband fired from his job if the friend didn't do what she wanted. Her new husband has to buy her something every single week, like the new BMW she got last month. I could go on.
> 
> Yes, people like this do exist.


They are fascinating in some regards, aren't they. In the worst cases they are the only human being in their universe. Spouses, even children are no different to them than a pair of shoes, a new suit a new car or set of golf clubs. All can be quite important to them at a certain point. But then comes the time when they've served their purpose, they all can be thrown away or traded in for new ones, or if need be destroyed.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

turnera said:


> I told my H 35 years ago that, if I ever caught him cheating, he'd never see me again. About 5 years ago, I asked him why he never cheated, like so many of his 'friends' had, and he brought up that one statement I made, when we were dating. He said he wasn't willing to lose me, so he never cheated.


THIS. It need be no more complicated than that. Some choose not to give a cheating spouse a 2nd chance as their marriage partner. Forgiveness and compassion for the cheater can still come, at some point. But the marriage will end.

I do not see this attitude as one of insecurity. On the contrary. The insecure person will tolerate the humiliation of infidelity for fear of facing the future alone or other life changes that can occur as a result of divorce.


----------



## calvin

I'm not afraid to go back to being single,hell it was great and fun.
I'm not afraid of change,its the only thing that consistent.
Some people are worth a second chance,it depends on their character and
level of remorse.
Its true that's its a total deal breaker for most and I don't blame them,its hard.
I also think there are different levels of infidelity.
Cheating is cheating but situations vary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

My husband would not be able to look at me the same way if I cheated. Our relationship is very special to him, well to both of us, and I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that if I chose to betray him our marriage would be damaged beyond repair. 

We have been together 23 years. I love him with my whole self. Knowing what would happen to him and our marriage if I ever cheated has played it's part in ensuring I never do.


----------



## samyeagar

I would be able to forgive an affair no problems. Would even understand how my own actions helped create an environment that led to an affair. The marriage would be over though. I would divorce immediately. I wouldn't mess with reconcilliation or anything. The mind movies alone would be enough to rip me apart, and the only way to get rid of them would be for her to be gone.

I know this, because this is how I dealt with my ex wife.


----------



## samyeagar

I also think in many cases, reconcilliation is not more than reliving the betrayal enough times that the BS just becomes numb to it.

I also don't really understand how being able to tell your spouse that you'd be able to forgive an affair is a sign of security. I suppose it some way the person saying it could be thinking it is an ultimate sign of trust, vulnerability, but I also think in most cases they would be saying it with the assumption that the statement will never be tested. It almost borders on taking the marriage for granted.

That being said, I have also told my STBW that I would forgive an affair, and I have proven that I am capable of it in dealing with my ex-wife. My STBW also knows that while the forgiveness would be there, our relationship would be done. It would not be forgiveness without consequences.


----------



## ReformedHubby

I definitely have a double standard when it comes to this issue. Even though my wife forgave me, I pretty much know I could not do the same. I know my wife very well. If she were having an affair reconciliation would be a moot point. If the OM has gotten that far she would no longer have any love for me anymore anyway. No point in fighting to save something that isn't there anymore. I feel really bad for the men on CWI that are fighting for a spouse that is in love with another man (as I stated previously I don't believe in fog).


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> I also think in many cases, reconcilliation is not more than reliving the betrayal enough times that the BS just becomes numb to it.
> 
> I also don't really understand how being able to tell your spouse that you'd be able to forgive an affair is a sign of security. I suppose it some way the person saying it could be thinking it is an ultimate sign of trust, vulnerability, but I also think in most cases they would be saying it with the assumption that the statement will never be tested. It almost borders on taking the marriage for granted.
> 
> That being said, I have also told my STBW that I would forgive an affair, and I have proven that I am capable of it in dealing with my ex-wife. My STBW also knows that while the forgiveness would be there, our relationship would be done. It would not be forgiveness without consequences.


I can't speak for soulpotato or Almost Young, but I think a secure person can see beyond the pain, into why the partner had the affair. He can be rational even when he is feeling emotion. And he just loves her, despite herself. 

I'm sure it would take a lot of maturity, and a desire to solve the problem, as in Why did the affair happen to start with? And not just "How could you do this to me?"

This might be more possible if the two people have been together a long, long time and have already experienced a great deal of trust and intimacy.

You've heard that saying, "I like you because, I love you although"? I think this is a matter of knowing what happened, understanding why, and being able to look past it. Obviously not everyone can, or even wants to do this.

Some people are willing to carry a partner; others absolutely are not. We all have our limits. You have to be true to your values, just like showed with your first wife. You can forgive, but you require termination of the relationship. But not everyone does.

It seems to really depend on the person.


----------



## jld

ReformedHubby said:


> I definitely have a double standard when it comes to this issue. Even though my wife forgave me, I pretty much know I could not do the same. I know my wife very well. If she were having an affair reconciliation would be a moot point. If the OM has gotten that far she would no longer have any love for me anymore anyway. No point in fighting to save something that isn't there anymore. I feel really bad for the men on CWI that are fighting for a spouse that is in love with another man (as I stated previously I don't believe in fog).


Well, I'm not really sure what to say to this, RH. She has shown you mercy, and compassion, and understanding, correct? But you are saying that you are not wired to do the same?

I guess if you know this is how you are, have you told her? Does she know what she can expect if she does to you what you did to her, repeatedly (is that correct?)?

Does this seem kind of off to you at all?


----------



## Caribbean Man

samyeagar said:


> *I also don't really understand how being able to tell your spouse that you'd be able to forgive an affair is a sign of security. I suppose it some way the person saying it could be thinking it is an ultimate sign of trust, vulnerability, but I also think in most cases they would be saying it with the assumption that the statement will never be tested. It almost borders on taking the marriage for granted.*


:iagree: fully.

I've noticed on TAM that some men seem to think that the hallmark of security of a man in a committed relationship is his willingness to allow his partner / wife the choice of other sexual non committed partners other than himself.
I think this is sure sign of weakness .

Strangely enough, I have NEVER seen any woman on TAM say that she had no problems with her husband having sex with another woman , and I think they are darn right.


----------



## jld

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree: fully.
> 
> I've noticed on TAM that some men seem to think that the hallmark of security of a man in a committed relationship is his willingness to allow his partner / wife the choice of other sexual non committed partners other than himself.
> I think this is sure sign of weakness .
> 
> Strangely enough, I have NEVER seen any woman on TAM say that she had no problems with her husband having sex with another woman , and I think they are darn right.


I don't think a secure man wants his wife to have an affair. I think he may just feel, from his heart, that it is not a dealbreaker, for _him_, considering the overall context of the relationship (years together, number of kids, overall intimacy, etc.).

Serial affairs? I think even a secure man would draw the line there. Jmo.


----------



## Blonde

ReformedHubby said:


> I definitely have a double standard when it comes to this issue. Even though my wife forgave me, I pretty much know I could not do the same. I know my wife very well. If she were having an affair reconciliation would be a moot point. If the OM has gotten that far she would no longer have any love for me anymore anyway. No point in fighting to save something that isn't there anymore. I feel really bad for the men on CWI that are fighting for a spouse that is in love with another man (as I stated previously I don't believe in fog).


I agree with you that men and women are different.

I learned on TAM that often when a woman has an affair, she is denying her husband sex and remaining "monogamous" with her AP. Whereas men will continue the sex with the wife along with sex on the side.


----------



## ReformedHubby

jld said:


> Well, I'm not really sure what to say to this, RH. She has shown you mercy, and compassion, and understanding, correct? But you are saying that you are not wired to do the same?
> 
> I guess if you know this is how you are, have you told her? Does she know what she can expect if she does to you what you did to her, repeatedly (is that correct?)?
> 
> Does this seem kind of off to you at all?


We are all different, I couldn't make myself forgive her just because she forgave me. It doesn't seem off to me at all. I also don't feel obligated to give her a free pass because of my past. Two wrongs certainly don't make a right. I'm sure my answer isn't what you expected but that's how I feel.

She does know how I feel about this because like other couples we've had the hypothetical conversation. Even if we had never had the discussion it would still be fairly obvious to her because I've always been super protective. 

BTW, she has no issues with how I feel about it. Her opinion would be really controversial on TAM but she believes that women can get over a physical affair much easier than men can. I don't know about that, but it does seem that betrayed men focus a lot more on the sex, and tend to view their woman as tainted afterwards.


----------



## Blonde

turnera said:


> To get back to a WS, however, this is my sticking point. I often tell BSs here that if they are considering taking back their WS, they must insist that the WS go to his/her parents, admit what they did, and ask for forgiveness.
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> Because of this pride 2nt speaks of. I've seen enough WSs and FWs to see that, if he/she isn't willing to do this one thing, then they aren't really remorseful. They are TALKING a good talk. But words are easy. To look your parents in the eyes and say 'this is what I did to my wife/husband,' well, that's a pretty strong indicator to me that the WS is now a FWS, that he/she gets it, and is MUCH less likely to cheat again.


My H told his mom (dad passed away) and her response (according to H, which I do take with a grain of salt) was along the lines of "boys will be boys. Your father did it, most men do it. It's no reason to break up the marriage"

To me, telling his family just validated his actions as "normal". 

My H could demonstrate remorse by telling his church. My H and I have been evangelical Christians since we married. His first A was on the mission field. I no longer go to church and I told him next time I go will be for his public testimony of remorse and repentance in front of the church.


----------



## Vega

nuclearnightmare said:


> My former daughter in law is/was a fundamentally mean person. Beyond selfish. That experience got me interested personality disorders, what they are, different types, percent of population that has them etc. Anyway there clearly was something like that wrong with her. Ill probably never in my life meet a better candidate for sociopath than her. More likely some form of extreme narcissism. The phrase raised earlier is perfect -- those that expect compassion from others but are incapable of offering it. Her brand of abuse was entirely emotional, but could be devastating. At the end of her marriage to my son I saw her operate in that mode. She even tried a little of it on me. It was fascinating to see her complete lack of self awareness -- entirely unable to put herself in anyone else's shoes. Zero empathy. Entitled galore. The rules were made for other people, not her.
> 
> Many reading this will recognize men they have known with the exact same characteristics. Both sexes are well represented in these categories of disorders. The men specialize more in violence certainly, but have not cornered the market on abuse or selfishness. If you go to the Coping with infidelity forum you'll
> Be able to read the BH describe some of these women.
> 
> So anyway, I see the worst of us as a group of people well represented by both genders.


Great post! I agree that it takes a certain amount of narcissism in order to engage in an affair, be it a ONS, and EA or a full-fledged LTA. But the amount of narcissism needed to do this doesn't always rise to the degree of a personality disorder. 

If the 'root' cause of people to engage in affairs is narcissism (or egotism, conceit, vanity, arrogance and other words that indicate an overwhelming self-interest _to the exclusion of others_), then I would surmise that the 'cure' would be _*humility*_...

...which is something I noticed that my ex and his AP both seemed to _lack_. After all, if either of them had humility, they never would have engaged in an affair in the first place. One or both of them would have easily applied the Golden Rule...

Vega


----------



## Married but Happy

Caribbean Man said:


> Strangely enough, I have NEVER seen any woman on TAM say that she had no problems with her husband having sex with another woman , and I think they are darn right.


That's because my wife doesn't participate in forums - this or any others. If she did, you'd see it. Besides, I believe there are a few other open marriages represented here.

However that diverges from this thread.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

It is interesting if certain types of affairs be more forgivable than others? A EA vs PA, a one night stand vs a prolonged PA? 

For me I'm not sure I could say if I would forgive because it would really depend on what kind of affair. I think it was easier for H to forgive a EA than a PA because there was no "mind movie" but I think like RH's wife says I would rather forgive a PA - if it was a one night stand- than an EA because I would be mostly angry that he could provide enough EN to develop one in the first place to HER when it's a struggle for us. He's got the alpha thing going so attracting women is not an issue. Keeping them emotionally involved, however, would require more effort and if he's got effort to give I want it going my way.


----------



## turnera

nuclearnightmare said:


> They are fascinating in some regards, aren't they. In the worst cases they are the only human being in their universe. Spouses, even children are no different to them than a pair of shoes, a new suit a new car or set of golf clubs. All can be quite important to them at a certain point. But then comes the time when they've served their purpose, they all can be thrown away or traded in for new ones, or if need be destroyed.


DD23 is working toward a PhD in psychology, so observing her is actually fascinating. DD is learning a lot, both about people like her and the people who flock around her.


----------



## Blonde

turnera said:


> I told my H 35 years ago that, if I ever caught him cheating, he'd never see me again. About 5 years ago, I asked him why he never cheated, like so many of his 'friends' had, and he brought up that one statement I made, when we were dating. He said he wasn't willing to lose me, so he never cheated.


My H cheated 7 years in when I was 30 with three children under 6. In hindsight, I have some regret for not ending the M then. Religious reservations, codependency, etc... and it was rugswept.

Next time was 26 years in and we had 8 children. D has way too many complications compared to one day at a time of H choosing moral sobriety.

My children witnessed a lot of fallout of how painful it was for me to go through betrayal and I have preached to them DON"T follow in my footsteps! DO have a zero tolerance policy and pursue divorce if cheating happens once. 

Jld, I could make a strong case that true compassion lets a prodigal go.


----------



## turnera

calvin said:


> I'm not afraid to go back to being single,hell it was great and fun.
> I'm not afraid of change,its the only thing that consistent.
> Some people are worth a second chance,it depends on their character and
> level of remorse.
> Its true that's its a total deal breaker for most and I don't blame them,its hard.
> I also think there are different levels of infidelity.
> Cheating is cheating but situations vary.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But calvin, you have one of the rare FWWs who is utterly, completely remorseful and aghast at what she did, and who's busted her butt to make it up to you. You guys _should _be together.


----------



## turnera

You can have compassion. From the other side of a divorce decree. The WS is then free to try his/her best to win you back.


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> My H cheated 7 years in when I was 30 with three children under 6. In hindsight, I have some regret for not ending the M then. Religious reservations, codependency, etc... and it was rugswept.
> 
> Next time was 26 years in and we had 8 children. D has way too many complications compared to one day at a time of H choosing moral sobriety.
> 
> My children witnessed a lot of fallout of how painful it was for me to go through betrayal and I have preached to them DON"T follow in my footsteps! DO have a zero tolerance policy and pursue divorce if cheating happens once.
> 
> Jld, I could make a strong case that true compassion lets a prodigal go.


Yes, I hear you. But I think that AY has a different sort of marriage than yours. I think that is where he is coming from.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> You can have compassion. From the other side of a divorce decree. The WS is then free to try his/her best to win you back.


Yes. Did you see my thread on automatic divorce for infidelity?


----------



## jld

ReformedHubby said:


> We are all different, I couldn't make myself forgive her just because she forgave me. It doesn't seem off to me at all. I also don't feel obligated to give her a free pass because of my past. Two wrongs certainly don't make a right. I'm sure my answer isn't what you expected but that's how I feel.
> 
> She does know how I feel about this because like other couples we've had the hypothetical conversation. Even if we had never had the discussion it would still be fairly obvious to her because I've always been super protective.
> 
> BTW, she has no issues with how I feel about it. Her opinion would be really controversial on TAM but she believes that women can get over a physical affair much easier than men can. I don't know about that, but it does seem that betrayed men focus a lot more on the sex, and tend to view their woman as tainted afterwards.


Well, at least she has been warned. No further comment.


----------



## jld

2ntnuf said:


> Yes, and a sign of love and devotion. At least, that's what I thought. It is not any of those things. It's a sign of a lack of self-respect. That's a terrible way to start a long-term relationship. Your spouse will not respect you in anything.
> 
> Consider this. If you love your child, do you let him/her eat ice cream for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and a candy bar before bed? Or, do you tell them to eat their green beans, peas and carrots, knowing they don't like it, but they are good for them?
> 
> That's the easiest way for me to think of it. I know we can't control anyone, but if a spouse is told, "I want you to eat your peas and carrots"(metaphorical), at least they will, in most cases, if they love you, try to, "eat their peas and carrots". If they don't, you divorce. If you reconcile, there's work to be done.


Or how about this: Do you tell your teenage daughter that if she ever gets pregnant, you will throw her out into the street? 

Or do you tell her about all the ways her life would change drastically, including the financial costs of a baby, and then urge her to think very carefully before having sex?


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> My H told his mom (dad passed away) and her response (according to H, which I do take with a grain of salt) was along the lines of "boys will be boys. Your father did it, most men do it. It's no reason to break up the marriage"
> 
> To me, telling his family just validated his actions as "normal".
> 
> My H could demonstrate remorse by telling his church. My H and I have been evangelical Christians since we married. His first A was on the mission field. I no longer go to church and I told him next time I go will be for his public testimony of remorse and repentance in front of the church.


He still goes to church? He really does compartmentalize!

Have you ever thought about telling his church?


----------



## AlmostYoung

2ntnuf said:


> Sorry, guys. Never tell your spouse you are okay with an affair. Never.


"I would forgive you"

Not "I'm ok with an A" lol

And I absolutely would forgive her, no matter what. Why? Because forgiveness is for the person giving it.

Doesn't mean there won't be consequences, doesn't mean we give them a free pass to cheat on us and continue to cheat more. If that's how your spouse takes "I would forgive you for an A" I suggest you guys have problems you need to work on. 

Despite what some think, not all spouses will take "I would forgive you" as weakness, or a green light to go ahead and cheat. I know mine doesn't.


----------



## jld

AlmostYoung said:


> "I would forgive you"
> 
> Not "I'm ok with an A" lol
> 
> And I absolutely would forgive her, no matter what. Why? Because forgiveness is for the person giving it.
> 
> Doesn't mean there won't be consequences, doesn't mean we give them a free pass to cheat on us and continue to cheat more. If that's how your spouse takes "I would forgive you for an A" I suggest you guys have problems you need to work on.
> 
> Honestly, not all spouses will take "I would forgive you" as weakness, or a green light to go ahead and cheat. I know mine doesn't.


Your marriage sounds like mine, AY. Dh's all-encompassing love for me makes me want to please him even more.


----------



## AlmostYoung

samyeagar said:


> I would be able to forgive an affair no problems. Would even understand how my own actions helped create an environment that led to an affair. The marriage would be over though. I would divorce immediately. I wouldn't mess with reconcilliation or anything. The mind movies alone would be enough to rip me apart, and the only way to get rid of them would be for her to be gone.
> 
> I know this, because this is how I dealt with my ex wife.


Works for you. 

Some of us have M's and spouses that we feel are worth a lot of trouble, and even the pain of an A won't necessarily allow us to give up on them.


----------



## AlmostYoung

jld said:


> I can't speak for soulpotato or Almost Young, but I think a secure person can see beyond the pain, into why the partner had the affair. He can be rational even when he is feeling emotion. And he just loves her, despite herself.
> 
> I'm sure it would take a lot of maturity, and a desire to solve the problem, as in Why did the affair happen to start with? And not just "How could you do this to me?"
> 
> This might be more possible if the two people have been together a long, long time and have already experienced a great deal of trust and intimacy.
> 
> You've heard that saying, "I like you because, I love you although"? I think this is a matter of knowing what happened, understanding why, and being able to look past it. Obviously not everyone can, or even wants to do this.
> 
> Some people are willing to carry a partner; others absolutely are not. We all have our limits. You have to be true to your values, just like showed with your first wife. You can forgive, but you require termination of the relationship. But not everyone does.
> 
> It seems to really depend on the person.


You say you can't speak for me and then you just did it. Especially the part I made red. Best post on the subject so far.


----------



## AlmostYoung

Well, I can see we all come from a much different place on this subject. No right or wrong, no one size fits all. Do what works for you. 

Interesting read though.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> I can't speak for soulpotato or Almost Young, but I think a secure person can see beyond the pain, into why the partner had the affair. He can be rational even when he is feeling emotion. And he just loves her, despite herself.
> 
> I'm sure it would take a lot of maturity, and a desire to solve the problem, as in Why did the affair happen to start with? And not just "How could you do this to me?"
> 
> *This might be more possible if the two people have been together a long, long time and have already experienced a great deal of trust and intimacy.*
> 
> You've heard that saying, "I like you because, I love you although"? I think this is a matter of knowing what happened, understanding why, and being able to look past it. Obviously not everyone can, or even wants to do this.
> 
> Some people are willing to carry a partner; others absolutely are not. We all have our limits. You have to be true to your values, just like showed with your first wife. You can forgive, but you require termination of the relationship. But not everyone does.
> 
> It seems to really depend on the person.


I'm curious. What would you consider to be a "long, long time" together? Would it be 10 years? 15? 20? 40? At what point does it switch from a short time to a long time? It's really subjective. And really, maturity and security are not prerequisites for sticking it out versus splitting up. My mom and dad have been married for 40 years. If one or the other decided to cheat, they would split. This is something they have stated many times over, even as recently as a few months ago. Does this mean they are not secure? Does this mean they are not mature? I don't think so. I think it shows that they have their own boundaries and they stick to them. To say otherwise, IMO, shows lack of maturity. Each couple, each person, has his or her own boundaries... and it has nothing to do with whether they are more mature than someone else. They just have different boundaries.




AlmostYoung said:


> Works for you.
> 
> Some of us have M's and spouses that we feel are worth a lot of trouble, and even the pain of an A won't necessarily allow us to give up on them.


Sorry, but the way this is worded makes me think that you don't think those who could not reconcile with a cheater don't think their spouses are worth a lot of trouble. That isn't the case at all. Many would go through a LOT of trouble for their/our spouses. At some point, enough has to be enough. For some, it's drinking. For others, it's infidelity. The thing is, each of us can say "I would never give up just because he/she cheated. I'd work it out!" or the exact opposite, when we have never encountered such things. But, if that situation presents itself, we may respond differently than we said. It doesn't mean our spouses aren't worth the effort. It means we have been pushed too far...for some. I can say that I can R from EA (both did this), but PA? No. If he were ever to have sex with another woman, we'd be done. And, he has stated the same thing. It's fine that, for you, it could be worked out. But, please don't try to say that we who couldn't do so don't feel our spouses are worth the trouble.

Also, I agree with RH. Just because one spouse is able to forgive and remain married if the other cheats, it doesn't mean that has to be reciprocated. For some, sex doesn't involve an emotional connection with the other person. For others, it does. In my case, my husband knows I could never have sex with someone I had no emotional connection with... just as I know he has that same feeling about sex, regarding himself. This is why, for us, it would be a dealbreaker. I believe, RH has stated in other threads that his wife is that way, but he isn't, necessarily. If that is the case, his wife knows this about him, so was able to forgive and rebuild. If she were to do the same, he would know she developed an emotional bond with the guy, and that's why it would end. Maybe I'm wrong about them, but it does shed light onto WHY one can forgive and remain, but the other could not.


----------



## skype

jld and AlmostYoung, you both seem to be married to spouses who would probably never cheat on you. It is easy to say that you would forgive them when you cannot imagine them actually stepping out on your marriage.

You picked people who value loyalty, and you both have kept your marriages strong. I don't think you can really know how you would react to the gut-wrenching pain of infidelity while you are in the comforting boundaries of a secure marriage.


----------



## calvin

turnera said:


> But calvin, you have one of the rare FWWs who is utterly, completely remorseful and aghast at what she did, and who's busted her butt to make it up to you. You guys _should _be together.


 I know what you're saying turnera and that's why we are still together and working on things.
I'm just pointing out that some BS's are afraid of the unknown,they give cheap forgivness
Because they are scared what the future holds.
A high level of remorse is needed for R and I have that and things have been going
pretty decent.
What dogged me was the loser AP texting,calling and fbing me and rubbing it in
for almost two years.
Pretty sure I fixed his wagon this time around,he's been quiet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

calvin said:


> I know what you're saying turnera and that's why we are still together and working on things.
> I'm just pointing out that some BS's are afraid of the unknown,they give cheap forgivness
> Because they are scared what the future holds.
> A high level of remorse is needed for R and I have that and things have been going
> pretty decent.
> What dogged me was the loser AP texting,calling and fbing me and rubbing it in
> for almost two years.
> Pretty sure I fixed his wagon this time around,he's been quiet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Right. But which had nothing whatsoever to do with your wife or how repentant she was.


----------



## calvin

turnera said:


> Right. But which had nothing whatsoever to do with your wife or how repentant she was.


 I feel it did,she chose him as my replacement,trusted him,gave him our home phone
number so yeah,it does have something to do with it.
I didn't bring him into our life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

2ntnuf said:


> I think that is the part you highlighted in red.
> 
> I want to say that you are all condoning cheating. You are doing the same as what you accuse me of doing. You are just doing it in a more subtle manner. You are giving a green light to all those sitting on the fence, about affairs and revenge affairs. That, in my opinion, is heinous.
> 
> Maybe you don't understand that is what you are doing. I hope that's the case and you are not serious. Is you are, you make a huge case against marriage.
> 
> It all reads like, if you are disrespected or have your feelings hurt in any way, it's alright to do whatever you perceive is justifiable revenge.
> 
> Forgiveness is definitely not for the other person, but it is quite good to forgive ourselves. That does not include, taking the WS back. It does not include, patting them on the back, hugging them and telling them, "it's alright". That is patronizing them. It's disrespecting yourself and the WS.
> 
> They WS must know the decision was solely their own. Anything less, is a lie. They must know that it was not the BS's fault for their choice of how to handle their pain. They had many choices. They chose infidelity. If not done out of vengeance, divorce would have preceded the affair. There would have been no affair. It shows how weak they really are.
> 
> 
> These responses also make me think that what many of you are saying, is the BS is obligated to treat the WS with the same respect and trust as before the affair ever occurred. Levels of trust required are earned, in a good long-term relationship. Respect is earned. Love, if a decision, is earned, in a good relationship, through following the boundaries both partners agreed upon, before marriage and during. One of them is usually monogamy. Few who are serious about marriage, consider anything, but monogamy, healthy for a marriage.
> 
> Many want to gloss over the affair and actions of the WS as being acceptable. They are not, unless agreed upon before the marriage. You must accept, as a WS, that you have breached this contract of marriage and accept responsibility for your actions. You knew there would be consequences. Even those who would believe they were given permission for an affair, know there are consequences for every action. It's pretty simple, really.
> 
> The BS knows they are responsible for there part in the unhappy marriage. The only way I could ever think that an affair was even close to being okay, would be if it was discussed prior to marriage and consent was given to each spouse for an affair. Few, would not question the motives behind that.
> 
> If love, in marriage is a decision, because the only way it can be perceived by the object of that love is to act in ways that are loving, the WS didn't have marital love for their partner. This can be said for a BS's actions within the marriage, as well. Those are grounds for divorce, counseling, or whatever is deemed to help make the best possible decision about the marriage. It's not a green light for revenge.
> 
> This whole thread is about justification for wrongs done which the WS cannot accept responsibility for deciding to do. It is such a burden for them, they have to find a, "***** in the armor". That's truly a sad commentary on all of those who are trying to reconcile. I have to believe, those who are married to one of these, should read and think very carefully about all of this and what they truly believe about themselves and their WS.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Couldn't have said it better myself 2ntnuf!

I like the idea of uniqueness and existentialism but there is something very Utopian and overly idealistic about some of the ideas floated in this thread that doesn't sound logical to me.


----------



## turnera

Jesus, how many times do we have to describe the affair fog, the psychological PULL it has, how it turns people into drug addicts who think of nothing else but getting nothing else but the next 'fix' of that high of someone else pursuing you? Yes, she bought into it. But once it was discovered, and she realized how badly she screwed up, IT WAS ALL ABOUT YOU. She got addicted to the high and went along with it. 

And then she didn't. And worked her ASS off to prove to you how sorry she was.

We are ALL capable of being seduced. Look at Samson. What matters is what they do once they are OUT of that scenario.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

calvin said:


> I'm not afraid to go back to being single,hell it was great and fun.
> I'm not afraid of change,its the only thing that consistent.
> Some people are worth a second chance,it depends on their character and
> level of remorse.
> Its true that's its a total deal breaker for most and I don't blame them,its hard.
> I also think there are different levels of infidelity.
> Cheating is cheating but situations vary.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

situations do vary. not all infidelity is equal; divorce is not a 100% solution.

on the other hand I will say that abuse - physical or emotional - DOES require the victim ending the relationship. In virtually every case IMO. Otherwise it entails being cut down and humilated weekly/monthly or daily. No one can endure that without major injury to their ego and self concept. leaving is a must.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

samyeagar said:


> I also don't really understand how being able to tell your spouse that you'd be able to forgive an affair is a sign of security. I suppose it some way the person saying it could be thinking it is an ultimate sign of trust, vulnerability, but I also think in most cases they would be saying it with the assumption that the statement will never be tested. It almost borders on taking the marriage for granted.


to me it almost borders on a tendency toward masochism........


----------



## calvin

turnera said:


> Jesus, how many times do we have to describe the affair fog, the psychological PULL it has, how it turns people into drug addicts who think of nothing else but getting nothing else but the next 'fix' of that high of someone else pursuing you? Yes, she bought into it. But once it was discovered, and she realized how badly she screwed up, IT WAS ALL ABOUT YOU. She got addicted to the high and went along with it.
> 
> And then she didn't. And worked her ASS off to prove to you how sorry she was.
> 
> We are ALL capable of being seduced. Look at Samson. What matters is what they do once they are OUT of that scenario.


 Its because of her extreme remorse that I can forgive and show compassion.
I'm not mad,it is something you never forget though.
Things are pretty decent but it takes work on both sides.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Vega said:


> Great post! I agree that it takes a certain amount of narcissism in order to engage in an affair, be it a ONS, and EA or a full-fledged LTA. But the amount of narcissism needed to do this doesn't always rise to the degree of a personality disorder.
> 
> If the 'root' cause of people to engage in affairs is narcissism (or egotism, conceit, vanity, arrogance and other words that indicate an overwhelming self-interest _to the exclusion of others_), then I would surmise that the 'cure' would be _*humility*_...
> 
> ...which is something I noticed that my ex and his AP both seemed to _lack_. After all, if either of them had humility, they never would have engaged in an affair in the first place. One or both of them would have easily applied the Golden Rule...
> 
> Vega



I agree. These types of people are just plain horrible. My son listed the main reasons he needed to divorce her. her infidelity was _*third*_ on his list. 
I would guess most cheaters don't have such a gaping hole where their conscience should be.


----------



## calvin

And I believe anyone would have a rough time if the AP kept taunting them.
You can't say how you'd handle it unless you went through it.
Yes it made it much harder but didn't stop me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

AlmostYoung said:


> "I would forgive you"
> 
> Not "I'm ok with an A" lol
> 
> And I absolutely would forgive her, no matter what. Why? Because forgiveness is for the person giving it.
> 
> Doesn't mean there won't be consequences, doesn't mean we give them a free pass to cheat on us and continue to cheat more. If that's how your spouse takes "I would forgive you for an A" I suggest you guys have problems you need to work on.
> 
> Despite what some think, not all spouses will take "I would forgive you" as weakness, or a green light to go ahead and cheat. I know mine doesn't.



but your point is also that you would not leave her over it; or divorce over it. In addition to forgiving her. Or am I not understanding what you are saying??


----------



## Blonde

2ntnuf said:


> I want to say that you are all condoning cheating.


Hope I am not included in that "all" because 
ITA with this:



> Forgiveness is definitely not for the other person, but it is quite good to forgive ourselves. That does not include, taking the WS back. It does not include, patting them on the back, hugging them and telling them, "it's alright". That is patronizing them. It's disrespecting yourself and the WS.
> 
> They WS must know the decision was solely their own. Anything less, is a lie. They must know that it was not the BS's fault for their choice of how to handle their pain. They had many choices. They chose infidelity.
> 
> ...
> 
> These responses also make me think that what many of you are saying, is the BS is obligated to treat the WS with the same respect and trust as before the affair ever occurred. Levels of trust required are earned, in a good long-term relationship. Respect is earned. Love, if a decision, is earned, in a good relationship, through following the boundaries both partners agreed upon, before marriage and during. One of them is usually monogamy. Few who are serious about marriage, consider anything, but monogamy, healthy for a marriage.
> 
> Many want to gloss over the affair and actions of the WS as being acceptable. They are not, unless agreed upon before the marriage. You must accept, as a WS, that you have breached this contract of marriage and accept responsibility for your actions. You knew there would be consequences. Even those who would believe they were given permission for an affair, know there are consequences for every action. It's pretty simple, really.


----------



## CantSitStill

I do not look for compassion for what I did.. it was wrong. I deserve no one to feel sorry for me for something I caused. It is what it is and I have to face it. Worse is that it hurt the hell outa calvin. Too late to go back in time so I must learn from it and make better choices from now on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Wow I just read some of the posts calvin wrote in here...brings tears to my eyes. I love you so much honey. You are the best husband in the world. That is true compassion, your heart is so huge. I hate that I have scarred it real bad. I know you will never heal and I am truly sorry. You know I am. This pain could have been avoided had I used my brain. Like I said, I can't undo it but yes I will accept your forgiveness. We will forever be a strong couple. I cannot even put in words how much you mean to me. K sorry for the thread jack. Carry on..oh I hope someone learns from what I did to never even think of cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AlmostYoung

Oh my. No 2nt, I never said I condone cheating. Please read a little more carefully before putting words into my posts. As far as I can tell, everyone here agree's cheating is wrong.

What we are discussing is our response to our spouses cheating. It's right there in the title: _Some compassion for waywards_. Which is why I said:



AY said:


> Well, I can see we all come from a much different place on this subject. No right or wrong, no one size fits all. Do what works for you.


To which you posted:



2nt said:


> Depending on your personal definition, it can be, "right or wrong"


We all get to choose what response, level of compassion, etc. we feel is best for US. None of us has the right to make that call for another. Your response may be quite different than mine. Therefore it's neither right nor wrong for us. I hope that is a little more clear.

I also said:



AY said:


> Doesn't mean there won't be consequences, doesn't mean we give them a free pass to cheat on us and continue to cheat more.


But somehow you continue to say I condone cheating. Nope, and I would appreciate if you would take that accusation back.


----------



## AlmostYoung

You guys are correct, I have not experienced infidelity in my M. But I've been around long enough, and seen enough, to more than know how devastating it can be.

I've also seen plenty of BS's bitterly withhold the compassion and forgiveness, for much too long. When we do this, we really are only hurting ourselves. How long we do this is up to us. Hurt as I may be, I just know I wouldn't want to live that way. 

Compassion and forgiveness has nothing to do with ok'ing the affair, or giving them a free pass. Think, _understanding._


----------



## Blonde

AlmostYoung said:


> You guys are correct, I have not experienced infidelity in my M. But I've been around long enough, and seen enough, to more than know how devastating it can be.


I really don't think you can understand unless you've been a mile in those shoes (which I would not wish on my worst enemy!)



> I've also seen plenty of BS's bitterly withhold the compassion and forgiveness, for much too long. When we do this, we really are only hurting ourselves. How long we do this is up to us. Hurt as I may be, I just know I wouldn't want to live that way.
> 
> Compassion and forgiveness has nothing to do with ok'ing the affair, or giving them a free pass. Think, _understanding._


I understand my H's cheating better than he does (I think). IME being understanding and "compassionate" and making excuses for him in my head because he had such a hard life- so much rejection and abuse... wound up ENABLING him. 

"Compassion" is misplaced. Accountability is what is needed with a cheater. And consequences which are painful for* them*. They really don't care about the pain they are causing others IME.

I'm not the least bit triggered by the appearance of judgement by some of those who have never BTDT (a sign of healing IMO). It reminds me of when a childless couple was chock full of advice about how to be the perfect parent.


----------



## Blonde

2ntnuf said:


> I cannot say more on this today. It is astonishing.


2ntnuf, Peace and Healing, brother!


----------



## AlmostYoung

2ntnuf said:


> For someone trying to get folks to find compassion within their heart for severe offenses that changed them fundamentally for the rest of their life, you show little compassion in that last post, #431.


I apologize for coming across to you as not showing compassion. That was never my intention. 

I also am not "trying to get" anyone to find anything. Just saying it as I see things, just like everyone else here. Are you trying to get me to not have compassion for WW's, or to hold a grudge against someone who hurt me? I never thought you were.



> Will I ever be the same? No. Will I be and am I stronger for it? No. I am weaker, but I am different. I assure you of that.


No, you will never be the same, but you can be whole again, you can be happy again, and you can love again. I've seen people go through this and come out BETTER for it. I know it crushes you, and I know it takes time. Only you can make this happen though, and my hope is that someday soon you will. 



> I am less of a man for having gone trough that, than I was before it. There sometimes can be little sympathy.


I'm sorry you had to endure such pain.


----------



## AlmostYoung

Blonde said:


> I really don't think you can understand unless you've been a mile in those shoes (which I would not wish on my worst enemy!)


You may be right. But I did get the ILYBINILWY speech from my W of (at that time) 28 years. She said she wanted out of the marriage, and wanted to find herself and someone she felt passionate about. That was 2 years ago and we are still not physical. Was there any cheating? Not that I'm aware of, but you never know... she did express the desire.

My life and heart were crushed, and I spun into depression. I slowly picked myself up and made a new life for myself, not so dependent on my W. It was absolutely like starting all over.

I knew her Mom's death triggered this. Some call it a MLC, or an awakening. Either way, I have much compassion for her. She did not ask for this, and did not intend to crush my world. She is only doing what she needs for herself right now. 

I believe we will get through this and be better off for it, but a less compassionate man would have bailed on her by now, because his needs were not being met. I can't, at least yet, _even if there was/is another man, _because she has stood faithfully by me all these years. Yes, the amount of years you share together does matter... at least to me it does. 



> "Compassion" is misplaced. Accountability is what is needed with a cheater.


Why can't there be both?


----------



## Blonde

AlmostYoung said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> "Compassion" is misplaced. Accountability is what is needed with a cheater.
> 
> 
> 
> Why can't there be both?
Click to expand...


That is why I put "compassion" in quotes. I have compassion for H but it is more of a tough love, and far more detached than I was through most of the M. 

I mentioned the prodigal earlier- in a way it was very disrespectful of me toward him to cling onto him for all those years when he was behaving in such a cruel rejecting manner. If a prodigal wants to leave, compassion will help them pack, wish them well, and move on with life- not forgetting them, but not paralyzed either.


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> That is why I put "compassion" in quotes. I have compassion for H but it is more of a tough love, and far more detached than I was through most of the M.
> 
> I mentioned the prodigal earlier- in a way it was very disrespectful of me toward him to cling onto him for all those years when he was behaving in such a cruel rejecting manner. If a prodigal wants to leave, compassion will help them pack, wish them well, and move on with life- not forgetting them, but not paralyzed either.


Do you feel like the disrespectful part was not insisting he be the best person he could be, like enabling him?


----------



## jld

Caribbean Man said:


> I like the idea of uniqueness and existentialism but there is something very Utopian and overly idealistic about some of the ideas floated in this thread that doesn't sound logical to me.


We all come out of our own experience. I'm pretty idealistic and my marriage is pretty ideal, at least to me. I am married to a man who seriously considered the priesthood as a young man, and wanted to do it to serve the poor.

He told me a few years ago that if the kids and I died, he would sell everything and go to Africa to serve the poor.

There are some truly altruistic people out there. Mother Theresa comes to mind, and there are other saints alive and just trying to help humanity today, too. I really and truly believe dh would forgive just about anything (trying to imagine here) from me. But that doesn't mean there would not be consequences.

Are you familiar with Catholic social teaching? This idea of extending compassion to people society considers least worthy of it comes from there, at least in my experience.

Life is hard. We haven't had the marriage struggles some have, but we have a son who has had cancer twice. The older I get, the softer I am getting, I guess.

And none of this means I condone cheating, or want to cheat, or want my spouse to cheat. If anything, I just want to give more and more to him, and be the best I can be for him.


----------



## jld

skype said:


> jld and AlmostYoung, you both seem to be married to spouses who would probably never cheat on you. It is easy to say that you would forgive them when you cannot imagine them actually stepping out on your marriage.
> 
> You picked people who value loyalty, and you both have kept your marriages strong. I don't think you can really know how you would react to the gut-wrenching pain of infidelity while you are in the comforting boundaries of a secure marriage.


Yes. I mentioned this at least once earlier in the thread, and on other threads.

We don't really know what we would do until we are in the situation.

And I am really, really sorry that others have experienced cheating and all the pain that it has brought. I wish I could help. I am sorry that a thread that was intended to bring comfort to some has brought hurt to so many.


----------



## samyeagar

AlmostYoung said:


> Works for you.
> 
> Some of us have M's and spouses that we feel are worth a lot of trouble, and even the pain of an A won't necessarily allow us to give up on them.


My first marriage was worth a lot of trouble as well, and I went through a lot. I spent 20 years, 17 of them marriaed to a woman with NPD, so I know what a troubled, dysfunctional marriage is all about. I stayed in it, took the emotional abuse for the sake of the kids. If I had allowed her affair, tried to work through it, I would have given her the last shred of humanity I had left.

I don't see it as giving up at all, but I do questions a persons self worth, boundaries and level of codependence. I am certainly not saying they have no self worth, poor boundaries, and are unhealthily codependent, but a person who would accept an affair absolutely has to honestly explore those things in themselves, and simply saying I would accept it because I love my spouse so much just reeks of martyrdom and better than you mindset.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> Do you feel like the disrespectful part was not insisting he be the best person he could be, like enabling him?


The disrespectful part was not acknowledging and honoring his choices. And not respecting myself to require more out a M. Not respecting myself enabled him to disrespect me and the M. 

So, jld when you speak of your having a poor self esteem, I identify with that. I see parallels. Thankfully for you, you did not marry someone who exploits that to walk on you, the M, the children.

For me, I am recovered now. I no longer allow H to walk on me, the children, or the M. I have a zero tolerance policy for that- which makes for much higher conflict than the bad old days when we were both conflict avoidant. 

At times, he accuses me of being "controlling" esp when it comes to his drinking. ((((shrug))))) The most recent episode was last week where he wants to order beer at a restaurant and I forbid it as he was driving. To me, its black and white- you just don't drink and drive. He wants to justify it saying he won't be over the limit with two beers. My experience is give him an inch, he takes a mile. I've had enough extremely painful experience as well as some triggers @ alcohol abuse (daddy a violent alcoholic, nephew brain injured from hitting a tree drunk driving @ age 17, and H cheating under the influence).


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> The disrespectful part was not acknowledging and honoring his choices. And not respecting myself to require more out a M. Not respecting myself enabled him to disrespect me and the M.
> 
> So, jld when you speak of your having a poor self esteem, I identify with that. I see parallels. Thankfully for you, you did not marry someone who exploits that to walk on you, the M, the children.
> 
> For me, I am recovered now. I no longer allow H to walk on me, the children, or the M. I have a zero tolerance policy for that- which makes for much higher conflict than the bad old days when we were both conflict avoidant.
> 
> At times, he accuses me of being "controlling" esp when it comes to his drinking. ((((shrug))))) The most recent episode was last week where he wants to order beer at a restaurant and I forbid it as he was driving. To me, its black and white- you just don't drink and drive. He wants to justify it saying he won't be over the limit with two beers. My experience is give him an inch, he takes a mile. I've had enough extremely painful experience as well as some triggers @ alcohol abuse (daddy a violent alcoholic, nephew brain injured from hitting a tree drunk driving @ age 17, and H cheating under the influence).


How did you not honor his choices?

I totally hear you on respecting yourself. I am not sure some of us even know what that looks like. I still struggle with this. I think when you grow up in an unhealthy environment, you just get used to being very, very practical. Take what you can get, just to survive, you know? Instead of thinking of what the very best could be, and going for that.

No, dh does not take advantage of my weaknesses. He is not perfect, but I feel respected. Still can't believe he came into my life, and just adores me. The things my family used to criticize me for, he finds charming. 

What drew you to your dh in the first place, Blonde?

It's funny how people can manipulate us by using the word "controlling." Glad you stood up to your dh and protected your own safety in the car.

It sounds like you have done an incredible amount of work on yourself. I don't know how you manage to stand him, though, if he can't be honest and open and accountable for his actions. I know, it's for the kids. You're truly a devoted mother, Blonde. Hats off to you.

And it's good to talk to you. You remind me of my oldest sister in some ways.


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> I am certainly not saying they have no self worth, poor boundaries, and are unhealthily codependent, but a person who would accept an affair absolutely has to honestly explore those things in themselves, and simply saying I would accept it because I love my spouse so much just reeks of martyrdom and better than you mindset.


AY has not been through it, and I have not, either. I am sure it feels different when it happens.

Speaking for my spouse, he is just very loving and giving. He doesn't give to get back. He just gives. Someone like this can probably manage it, without it being about martyrdom and any holier than thou mindset. I think he just sees me as being more fragile than he is, and he adjusts his expectations accordingly.

He does this with the guys who work for him, too. He doesn't ask more from people than he feels they can give. 

It doesn't mean anybody else has to.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> How did you not honor his choices?


When he cheated the first time 7 years in, I should have let him go. His choice was to break the vows and go outside the M. Honoring his choice would be to divorce him.


----------



## samyeagar

I would also submit that in many, if not most cases of infidelity, endiing the marriage IS the compassionate thing to do for both parties, but even more so for the WS.

Why would I, as a BS want to subject my WS to the inevitable triggers I am going to have? Triggers that she likely wouldn't even have control over? A song comes on the radio, a scene in a movie or TV show? A thoughtless friend? The moodiness, the hurt, the lashing out? My compassion for her is to release her from the pain.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> What drew you to your dh in the first place, Blonde?


He was pretty obsessed with me and it was flattering. He is smart and good looking. He was an extremely zealous christian, which I wanted. I assumed his profession of christianity would protect me from the risk of alcoholism and serial adultery that was my dad's role model. But I had huge blind spots to red flags and actually picked someone very like my dad in some ways...

The MC told me it is extremely common for women to marry someone like their dad. :scratchhead:


----------



## Blonde

samyeagar said:


> I would also submit that in many, if not most cases of infidelity, endiing the marriage IS the compassionate thing to do for both parties, but even more so for the WS.
> 
> Why would I, as a BS want to subject my WS to the inevitable triggers I am going to have? Triggers that she likely wouldn't even have control over? A song comes on the radio, a scene in a movie or TV show? A thoughtless friend? The moodiness, the hurt, the lashing out? My compassion for her is to release her from the pain.


^^so true

Sometimes I feel that H would make a better husband for someone else who doesn't have the history with him. He's housebroken now and maybe would behave??? With me, I will never let my guard down with him and I will always be triggered and "controlling" @ things such as his alcohol use.

When I think that way, I also kick myself for not ending it at year 7 with most of my life in front of me. Now I am older with absolutely NO desire to start the whole process over with another man.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

samyeagar said:


> My compassion for her is to release her from the pain.


This played a part in my decision to divorce, even though I was the WS. While we were in MC and reconciling, there were certain places and restaurants that were off limits because I had taken someone else there. We'd go somewhere new and when I asked about the discomfort I sensed, I got back "I'm wondering if someone else showed you this place, and that's why you wanted to come here" and such.

Any new interest I had was met with a raised eyebrow of suspicion. I don't want to live like that, and I didn't want her to live like that. Oddly, she objected when I included that as one of my reasons we should divorce. She said she would rather go through all that and claimed I was just pretending to be "nice" again... as if divorcing her was doing her a favor. I felt and still feel that I did us both a favor.


----------



## 1812overture

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> If he simply shut down because I was a "wh0re" and he was just a poor BS we wouldn't be where we are.


Do I have it right that you had an emotional affair, not a physical one? Does that phrase apply in an emotional affair? IMO it doesn't, but I haven't been there.

Since it is easier to discuss this here than in CWI, I noticed a long ago post of yours



> It fixed a lot of the other crap in our relationship but not these issues so I just got resentful (that he was getting his needs and I wasn't getting mine) and just drifted out of it after about 6 months.


Since I know there was physical fear in your situation (to which I cannot relate on either side of the equation), I'm approaching this a bit hypothetically. Jointly, you addressed problems (it seems), but not all of them. Is there any scenario in which he could accurately state that some changes took place to address your needs, but not his?

I ask because I have a troubled marriage. We've been to counseling, together and separately. We each have committed to changes, and tend to drift out of them. Often we meet the letter of the commitment but probably not the spirit, thus resentment.

My wife could (I don't think she has or will) outline her troubles in a compelling way, so that outsiders (maybe people on TAM) would think, "Oh, he's awful." If she pursues an affair, and it's discovered, and we try to reconcile, do you think I'll be forced to accept my share of the blame, simply because neither of us have been able to make things work well for more than several weeks at a time? 

From a distanced perspective, if that does happen, I would undoubtedly be a candidate for a revenge affair. 

And, I am glad whatever you are doing is working for you and your spouse. I hope my own marriage doesn't need such a cataclysm, but it reassuring to know that continuing to try can yield results.


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> I would also submit that in many, if not most cases of infidelity, endiing the marriage IS the compassionate thing to do for both parties, but even more so for the WS.
> 
> Why would I, as a BS want to subject my WS to the inevitable triggers I am going to have? Triggers that she likely wouldn't even have control over? A song comes on the radio, a scene in a movie or TV show? A thoughtless friend? The moodiness, the hurt, the lashing out? My compassion for her is to release her from the pain.


Yes, I agree with this. I started a thread in CWI a few weeks ago entitled, "Automatic Divorce for Infidelity."


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> He was pretty obsessed with me and it was flattering. He is smart and good looking. He was an extremely zealous christian, which I wanted. I assumed his profession of christianity would protect me from the risk of alcoholism and serial adultery that was my dad's role model. But I had huge blind spots to red flags and actually picked someone very like my dad in some ways...
> 
> The MC told me it is extremely common for women to marry someone like their dad. :scratchhead:


This reminds me of my oldest sister, too, the smart and good looking part. And she is an evangelical Christian, too, though we all grew up Catholic.

He has cheated on her several times, and every time she blames the OW. It's never his fault, you know? And they just say a little prayer and it's all done, he's all forgiven.

I hated my dad. I stopped being afraid of him 8 months after he died. I married his polar opposite. Not sure I can take credit for that, though; on some level I really was just very, very lucky.


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> ^^so true
> 
> Sometimes I feel that H would make a better husband for someone else who doesn't have the history with him. He's housebroken now and maybe would behave??? With me, I will never let my guard down with him and I will always be triggered and "controlling" @ things such as his alcohol use.
> 
> When I think that way, I also kick myself for not ending it at year 7 with most of my life in front of me. Now I am older with absolutely NO desire to start the whole process over with another man.


I would not wish your husband on any woman, Blonde.

It must be stressful to never be able to relax with him. I hope whatever time you have left with him seems relatively short. And I hope there will be healing, real healing in your heart. There may be a man out there who someday will help you heal your heart.


----------



## Blonde

I grew up Catholic too. And my dad was scary too.

Unlike your sis, I never blamed OW. I felt sorry for them. The first one was a prostitute in a foreign country where we were missionaries- probably an underage prostitute who was sold into it for peanuts by her family. The second one was a janitor half his age with a live in drug addict BF on disability and 4 young children.

I felt sorry for both of them because they were not christians and a christian DOM exploited and used them for sex. I always thought Christians are supposed to be Christlike and I can't see Jesus diddling with unfortunate wounded young women...


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> He has cheated on her several times, and every time she blames the OW. It's never his fault, you know? And they just say a little prayer and it's all done, he's all forgiven.


^^Misplaced compassion! Can you see how this kind of "compassion" is enabling?


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> I would not wish your husband on any woman, Blonde.
> 
> It must be stressful to never be able to relax with him. I hope whatever time you have left with him seems relatively short. And I hope there will be healing, real healing in your heart. *There may be a man out there who someday will help you heal your heart.*


I feel that the Lord has healed my heart. As I said earlier there are scars which will remain forever and be tender when bumped, but the open wound and the intense pain are gone.


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> I grew up Catholic too. And my dad was scary too.
> 
> Unlike your sis, I never blamed OW. I felt sorry for them. The first one was a prostitute in a foreign country where we were missionaries- probably an underage prostitute who was sold into it for peanuts by her family. The second one was a janitor half his age with a live in drug addict BF on disability and 4 young children.
> 
> I felt sorry for both of them because they were not christians and a christian DOM exploited and used them for sex. I always thought Christians are supposed to be Christlike and I can't see Jesus diddling with unfortunate wounded young women...


I'm so glad you never blamed the OW. He really took advantage of them. Your husband really is sick.

Yeah, you can't trust a label that someone wears. You have to look at how they live their lives. That tells you what "religion" they have. 

And I really wish people would ask themselves what Jesus would do in their situation. I wish I would ask myself if what I am doing is what Jesus would do. What an inspiring guy.

Do you still believe in anything, Blonde?


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> ^^Misplaced compassion! Can you see how this kind of "compassion" is enabling?


I guess I would not call it compassion. It is total enablement, and really, short-sighted selfishness on my sister's part. She was always scared to be alone, and believes the Bible says she can't remarry. So it was stick with him, or nothing.

She doesn't realize how much she stole from herself by not being honest with herself, and following through on that honesty.


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> I feel that the Lord has healed my heart. As I said earlier there are scars which will remain forever and be tender when bumped, but the open wound and the intense pain are gone.


That's good.

I only mentioned that because I feel like dh healed my heart. He would listen to me for hours and hours the first few months we were together, sometimes clarifying something or helping me to see it from another perspective, but always listening and caring.

After about five months of this, I turned to him one day and said, "Aren't you getting worn out from listening to me all the time?" And he replied, "You are a 100 watt bulb. And I am a nuclear power plant."

All of that listening, that compassion and understanding, knit me to his heart. He got to know me so well, better than I know myself, I think. And I am so, so grateful.

This is what I want for other women, too, to just feel loved and cared for. I have known too many women IRL who just don't feel this way.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> I would not wish your husband on any woman, Blonde.


It would hurt his feelings to read that and he would get defensive and compare himself to a violent jobless alcoholic and tell me I don't know how lucky and blessed I am to have landed God's gift to women 

He has plenty of them who line up offering him sexual favors. I am easily replaceable. 


> It must be stressful to never be able to relax with him. I hope whatever time you have left with him seems relatively short.


Conflict over things such as the drinking is very stressful and triggering, but the conflict does not continue non-stop. It comes and goes. Much of the rest of the time is pleasant enough.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> That's good.
> 
> I only mentioned that because I feel like dh healed my heart. He would listen to me for hours and hours the first few months we were together, sometimes clarifying something or helping me to see it from another perspective, but always listening and caring.
> 
> After about five months of this, I turned to him one day and said, "Aren't you getting worn out from listening to me all the time?" And he replied, "You are a 100 watt bulb. And I am a nuclear power plant."
> 
> All of that listening, that compassion and understanding, knit me to his heart. He got to know me so well, better than I know myself, I think. And I am so, so grateful.
> 
> This is what I want for other women, too, to just feel loved and cared for. I have known too many women IRL who just don't feel this way.


I hired a "rent a friend" who met some of those needs. ^^ We had a male MC. H ditched and I continued for 2 years. I'm thankful for his listening and prodding which helped me grow a backbone and for his role model of a REAL genuine christlike christian man with compassion.

The root words of psychotherapy= soul healing


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> It would hurt his feelings to read that and he would get defensive and compare himself to a violent jobless alcoholic and tell me I don't know how lucky and blessed I am to have landed God's gift to women
> 
> He has plenty of them who line up offering him sexual favors. I am easily replaceable.


He still is that defensive, huh? 

Defensiveness is such a tip off. When we get defensive, we can count on the fact that we are doing something wrong. We see it all over these boards, and in real life, certainly. When we are secure in what we are doing, there is no defensiveness. We can just be open and listen and sincerely consider another person's pov.

I feel sorry for those girls. Low self-esteem, according to my therapist, is just epidemic among women. How to solve it?


----------



## Jung_admirer

Blonde said:


> Sometimes I feel that H would make a better husband for someone else who doesn't have the history with him. * He's housebroken now and maybe would behave??? *With me, I will never let my guard down with him and I will always be triggered and "controlling" @ things such as his alcohol use.


Housebreaking is a form of cognitive behavioral therapy, and it may work as you suggest. But beyond all that are the unconscious needs that manifest in reflexive behavior. Jung suggested these needs will not be denied, so the consequence of housebreaking drives more malignant forms of reflexive behavior, many of which may not be immediately visible to you or your DH. There simply is no substitute for doing the internal work that constitutes taking personal responsibility for our own psychology. Many posters have suggested different tactics for creating an environment for true reconciliation. One suggested the WS should disclose the EA/PA to their parents. While I think this is a good idea, it fundamentally does not affect the unconscious aspects of volition. I considered very carefully my choice to lead with compassion... the care of the mind, body and soul of my WS. I surrender the space she needs to work on herself and presume the space I need for my own growth. 

I defer to pages 60-61 from here:
The Middle Passage: From Misery to Meaning in Midlife - James Hollis - Google Books


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> I hired a "rent a friend" who met some of those needs. ^^ We had a male MC. H ditched and I continued for 2 years. I'm thankful for his listening and prodding which helped me grow a backbone and for his role model of* a REAL genuine christlike christian man with compassion.*
> 
> The root words of psychotherapy= soul healing


And that is it, isn't it? A REAL man. I get so frustrated with men assuring me they are secure when they are not.  Telling me they are a rock, when they are actually a plastic yellow life raft. And don't get me started on all the fake dominant stuff. 

And what is sad is that women and children desperately need real men in their lives.

I never thought of dh as a psychotherapist -- he's an engineer-- but I have definitely thought of him as a father. He is totally the father I always wanted. And he's only 3 years older than I am.

Love that soul healing . . . that is truly what happened to me, I think. Thank God. And dh.


----------



## 1812overture

calvin said:


> And I believe anyone would have a rough time if the AP kept taunting them._Posted via Mobile Device_


Holy Cow! I gotta' agree with this. And you are right that you didn't bring this guy into you life, she did. Wow.



CantSitStill said:


> I hope someone learns from what I did to never even think of cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CantSitStill -- I don't know your specific story (but it's the flipside of Calvin?), but for what it's worth, the things I read in CWI, and other things I have done, have strengthened my resolve. I assume I was immensely susceptible several years ago. Now, not so much.

And it also makes me understand how reconciliation happens -- even in the face of this guy's continuous reminders. 

Damn, you guys have a tough job. I guess I am glad you have each other to help you through. Do I need to read more about your story, or is it kind of immaterial, given what I've read here?


----------



## jld

Jung_admirer said:


> There simply is no substitute for doing the internal work that constitutes taking personal responsibility for our own psychology.


:iagree:


----------



## calvin

1812overture said:


> Holy Cow! I gotta' agree with this. And you are right that you didn't bring this guy into you life, she did. Wow.
> 
> 
> CantSitStill -- I don't know your specific story (but it's the flipside of Calvin?), but for what it's worth, the things I read in CWI, and other things I have done, have strengthened my resolve. I assume I was immensely susceptible several years ago. Now, not so much.
> 
> And it also makes me understand how reconciliation happens -- even in the face of this guy's continuous reminders.
> 
> Damn, you guys have a tough job. I guess I am glad you have each other to help you through. Do I need to read more about your story, or is it kind of immaterial, given what I've read here?


You can read our thread "ups and downs" in the private section,its two years long.
Something like 11,000 pages but that would take for ever.
CSS did meet the jerk four times and four kisses did happen,not even any tongue,she was nervouse.
I've verified nothing happend.There were a lot of calls and text and I love yous.
He was a hs bf,they never got physical back then either.
He's a twice convicted felon and his check is garneshed like crazy from all the 
money he owes,no car,no home just a complete liar and loser.
He'd set up fights we me then run,threaten to come to my house and rape my wife,
he just kept calling and texting for almost two years.
Telling me to stay out of his business,I can't tell him to talk to and some really
disgusting stuff.
I exposed him to friends,his gf and his job,he was using company truck and phone to
keep the A going and taunt me,I got him in a lot of trouble.
I haven't heard from him in probably two months,company took away his phone and he can't
afford one.
I've seen him around town and he has run from me everytime.
Sigh...........its a long story.
He's preyed on a couple other married women,husbands got kicked out and he
would move in,when these women found out what a louse me was they kicked
him out and tried to get their husbands back...too late.
I did a decent job of ruining his life but like I said its a very long story.
Fortunately the twice convicted felon did'nt get a chance to hurt my wife.
My wife sure wasn't herself when she thought he was the "one".
His lies where just incredible but my wife ate them up.
The level of remorse from her is incredible or we would not be together.
I know she loves me and I her and I'm damn sure nothing like this will happen
again.
The calls,text and fb msg's made it a lot harder for me to deal with it all.
Something very wrong with the bonehead.
He's 40 and has false teeth,no one knew that,a now ex-friend of his told me that.
I looked up his arrest record,prison record and his credit history.
He didn't like be rubbing it in that his teeth almost got repoed but its true,he broke.
Told my wife he makes 146,000 a year.....but he can't afford a car???
Anyway,this last time I did a number on him,I don't think I'll ever hear from him again.
Me and the wife are doing fairly good,two year aniverssary of D day
is this Friday but it doesn't bother me.
I'm looking ahead now.

My wife (CSS) has posted a lot warning others not to do something like this.
One other thing.
CSS exposed herself to co-workers and friends without me asking.
That says a lot about her character.
She's a good girl and we will be just fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

There was a lot of bullcrap that the ex om pulled. He ruined our Valentine's Day a couple years ago. If you read our thread read feb 14th 2012. Calvin and I are still healing and always will be. I blame myself because it's not like I was forced by the ex om. I made that choice myself. I was blaming calvin for my unhappiness and of course now I see where I had a lot of faults in our marriage. Our story is awful. We even had arguements on our own thread with eachother in the first year of our R. We have read alot of books, went to a lot of counselling, learned alog here and we both have changed in so many ways with how we treat eachother. Many many times we didn't think we were gonna make it. Now we both know we can and will make it. I will never give up on calvin. There is no way I could write it all here. I am grateful for this chance I have with calvin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Many people from my church know what I did. I wanted to talk to them and confess what I did. It made me feel better to talk about it with people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Not many couples can continue to stay married and happily married after an affair. Even people that try usually don't make it. We are one of the rare couples that are still married and working to make our marriage better daily. Yes he has triggers but he is worth getting through those triggers with. He still asks me hard questions but I always answer honestly, even when I know it's not the answer he wants to hear. It is hard, butworth it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

And this is why I feel compassion can be shown to a WS...former WS.
If they do everything in their power to fix the damage they caused.
God we're HJing the hell out of this thread.
Sorry guys,we're done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Lol we are never done . Just joking around. But no we will never be done as far as reconciling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

AlmostYoung said:


> You may be right. But I did get the ILYBINILWY speech from my W of (at that time) 28 years. She said she wanted out of the marriage, and wanted to find herself and someone she felt passionate about. That was 2 years ago and we are still not physical. Was there any cheating? Not that I'm aware of, but you never know... she did express the desire.
> 
> My life and heart were crushed, and I spun into depression. I slowly picked myself up and made a new life for myself, not so dependent on my W. It was absolutely like starting all over.
> 
> I knew her Mom's death triggered this. Some call it a MLC, or an awakening. Either way, I have much compassion for her. She did not ask for this, and did not intend to crush my world. She is only doing what she needs for herself right now.
> 
> I believe we will get through this and be better off for it, but a less compassionate man would have bailed on her by now, because his needs were not being met. I can't, at least yet, _even if there was/is another man, _because she has stood faithfully by me all these years. Yes, the amount of years you share together does matter... at least to me it does.
> 
> 
> 
> Why can't there be both?


Almost young:

You and I will have to agree to disagree on what compassion is and who deserves it. But I am very sorry for what you are going through with your W. I'm sure it is deeply disappointing to you. I do agree with you though - she is only thinking of herself right now.

Besides her mother dying and her entering some sort of midlife c, what did you do to deserve such treatment from her for the last two years? Do you suspect she may have cheated on you? Do you think about it very much? After 2 years of this nonsense, I actually think you should maintain your compassion for her and set her free to find her passions as a single woman.

Hang in there A Y.


----------



## samyeagar

calvin said:


> And this is why I feel compassion can be shown to a WS...*former WS*.
> If they do everything in their power to fix the damage they caused.
> God we're HJing the hell out of this thread.
> Sorry guys,we're done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not to rub salt in it, but just to point out, much like an alcoholic, they are always going to be a wayward spouse. There is no way to remove that from who they are.

If they are ever to be in a relationship again, and are honest with their new partner, they will have to live with the fact that their new partner knows they are capable of cheating on them.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

1812overture said:


> Do I have it right that you had an emotional affair, not a physical one? Does that phrase apply in an emotional affair? IMO it doesn't, but I haven't been there.
> 
> 
> Since I know there was physical fear in your situation (to which I cannot relate on either side of the equation), I'm approaching this a bit hypothetically. Jointly, you addressed problems (it seems), but not all of them. Is there any scenario in which he could accurately state that some changes took place to address your needs, but not his?


I have seen women who have had EA be called names like wh0re. It also seems based on the threads I have read that women are treated more harshly with the name calling than the men are no matter what kind of affair they had, maybe I am just reading the wrong threads 

As for his needs, I'd love if I knew his whole side of things because anytime we have had that conversation he says his needs are met just fine, that the things I _do _are all the things he needs (domestic, etc). 
He would probably say I b*tch too much and hold grudges and I assume the worst - if he says "I'll do the dishes today" I think, "ya, right. I'll believe it when I see it" so my attitude makes him not want to do it at all. If he doesn't, I was right all along, if he does it's more like "wow, great. 1 load of dishes. Good for you? I'll get you a medal" (these things aren't always said but I know my attitude can show them anyway) He can't win. So that would be his side. It does get addressed but I can admit that I can slip back into sarcastic b*tch mode at times.


----------



## AlmostYoung

Many here have said something like:

"I don't think you can say how you would react until you are actually faced with infidelity" 

I agree… and this goes both ways. I know of many who said infidelity would be a deal breaker for them. Yet when it actually happened they reconsidered. 

Infidelity does not have to mean the end of the M, and in fact usually isn’t. All one has to do is look at the statistics to see this is the case. 

What both partners do after the fact to mend and strengthen the relationship is another matter. Seems to me, many things are required, including compassion on both sides. 

It won't be easy, but divorce never is either.


----------



## ReformedHubby

samyeagar said:


> Not to rub salt in it, but just to point out, much like an alcoholic, they are always going to be a wayward spouse. There is no way to remove that from who they are.
> 
> If they are ever to be in a relationship again, and are honest with their new partner, they will have to live with the fact that their new partner knows they are capable of cheating on them.


Very true. Waywards can't and should not trust themselves to be faithful. A wayward that says I will never cheat again is in danger of falling back into the same pattern again.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ReformedHubby said:


> Very true. Waywards can't and should not trust themselves to be faithful. A wayward that says I will never cheat again is in danger of falling back into the same pattern again.


I think it could be dangerous for anyone to just assume that they would never cheat. Remember every WS was once not a WS and I bet almost all of them have said or thought "I'll never cheat" WS would have to more actively avoid situations where cheating could take place but no one is immune to it. 
Everyone is capable of cheating so there should be systems of honesty and boundaries in place to prevent it. Take actions so you'll never cheat, not just think you won't so you can do whatever you want.


----------



## AlmostYoung

nuclearnightmare said:


> Almost young:
> 
> You and I will have to agree to disagree on what compassion is and who deserves it. But I am very sorry for what you are going through with your W. I'm sure it is deeply disappointing to you. I do agree with you though - she is only thinking of herself right now.
> 
> Besides her mother dying and her entering some sort of midlife c, what did you do to deserve such treatment from her for the last two years? Do you suspect she may have cheated on you? Do you think about it very much? After 2 years of this nonsense, I actually think you should maintain your compassion for her and set her free to find her passions as a single woman.
> 
> Hang in there A Y.


Thanks NN,

Like every other spouse I wasn’t perfect, and I’ve taken responsibility for my shortcomings, and have addressed them. 

I’ve learned a lot about MLC over the last two years, and it really is about them, their unresolved childhood issues, their regrets, etc. Death of someone close is often a trigger, as this brings the realization of the shortness of life to the forefront. An Awakening. I’ve heard “I’ve wasted 30 years of my life” many times over.

I highly doubt she cheated on me, as even now we still have a good emotional connection. She tells me about her times out with friends and such, in a way that I know is real, not faked. I never snoop, but she often shows and tells me about her FB postings even though I never ask. When you’ve been as close as we were, for as long as we were, it’s damn near impossible to get away with lying or concealing. YMMV.

She needs this time to figure herself out, and I have given it to her. She is completely free to do what she wants, including find another man, leave me and the marriage. Yet she is still here. I am too, because I still feel that eventually we will end up with a marriage and closeness that most could only dream of.


----------



## CantSitStill

Well when someone does something that caused a huge consequence. Yes there are people that will never do that again. I say I won't and I mean I won't. Whatever it takes to make sure they don't then they don't. So it is ok for me to say never again because I mean it and I know I won't. Oh nevermind. Don't know why I feel the need to explain here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

CantSitStill said:


> Well when someone does something that caused a huge consequence. Yes there are people that will never do that again. I say I won't and I mean I won't. Whatever it takes to make sure they don't then they don't. So it is ok for me to say never again because I mean it and I know I won't. Oh nevermind. Don't know why I feel the need to explain here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am sure many WS spouses feel the same way, and it is possible for some people to be shocked into carrying that out for the rest of their lives, but their track record, their past actions show to others, the outside world, that they are indeed capable of it no matter how many times they say they would never do it again. 

Many people though feel as if they learned a lesson, and then over time, either forget it, or never actually learned it in the first place. Lots of people have had near death experiences from reckless behavior and eventually slip back into it.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

The idea that having done something shows that someone is "capable" of it, is a poor one. The person who hasn't done it yet, is just as "capable".

All history provides you is how that person responded to certain conditions at that time. Unless you have a repeating pattern, you have no predictive ability whatsoever.

Also, to pick nits, as an extremophile adrenaline junky myself - having a near death experience from reckless behavior doesn't mean you believe the behavior to be wrong. The risk comes with the territory. Several of my gfs (and my EW) believed my racing motorcycles was reckless. I've had very close brushes with death on the racetrack, but I have no desire to stop racing nor any belief that racing is wrong. So its not something "slipped back into". There was nothing wrong with it to begin with. Everything in life is a matter of risk tolerance.


----------



## Jung_admirer

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The idea that having done something shows that someone is "capable" of it, is a poor one. The person who hasn't done it yet, is just as "capable".
> 
> *All history provides you is how that person responded to certain conditions at that time. Unless you have a repeating pattern, you have no predictive ability whatsoever.*


With respect to all WS ... The BS listens to what you say today ("I will never have another EA/PA") and remembers what you have done in the past. The BS needs you to reveal what inside you has changed such that you would make a different choice next time. Please don't maintain that your conscious will is enough, because it was not enough the first time around. 

For example, saying, "I see how much I hurt you, I can never hurt anyone like this again" is useless. Contrast this with, "I could not speak to you about our emotional disconnect because I could not endure that vulnerability. I chose a way to get my needs met at the expense of the trust and intimacy of our marriage. In IC, I have dealt with my inability to be vulnerable and here is how I will share this with you."

Owning your side of the street is the only thing that makes all the difference. (maybe this is just me?)


----------



## samyeagar

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The idea that having done something shows that someone is "capable" of it, is a poor one. *The person who hasn't done it yet, is just as "capable".*
> 
> All history provides you is how that person responded to certain conditions at that time. Unless you have a repeating pattern, you have no predictive ability whatsoever.
> 
> Also, to pick nits, as an extremophile adrenaline junky myself - having a near death experience from reckless behavior doesn't mean you believe the behavior to be wrong. The risk comes with the territory. Several of my gfs (and my EW) believed my racing motorcycles was reckless. I've had very close brushes with death on the racetrack, but I have no desire to stop racing nor any belief that racing is wrong. So its not something "slipped back into". There was nothing wrong with it to begin with. Everything in life is a matter of risk tolerance.


This is true, which is why I prefaced that by pointing out that he one who has done it in the past has a proven track record of cheating, and once is all it takes to make you a cheater. Yes, you can claim the circumstances that lead to the cheating, but it is quite likely that those circumstances ill come up in just about any relationship, hence the numbers of people who cheat. Circumstances leading to an affair aren't that unusual, or there wouldn't be so much of it.

About your motorcycle riding, the beter comparison would be the serial cheat who has no remorse and flat out says they will keep doing it. What I said was in relation to someone who was 'scared straight' if you will...sort of like if you had a bad wreck and swore to never ride again.


----------



## jld

Jung_admirer said:


> With respect to all WS ... The BS listens to what you say today ("I will never have another EA/PA") and remembers what you have done in the past. The BS needs you to reveal what inside you has changed such that you would make a different choice next time. Please don't maintain that your conscious will is enough, because it was not enough the first time around.
> 
> For example, saying, *"I see how much I hurt you, I can never hurt anyone like this again" is useless. Contrast this with, "I could not speak to you about our emotional disconnect because I could not endure that vulnerability. I chose a way to get my needs met at the expense of the trust and intimacy of our marriage. In IC, I have dealt with my inability to be vulnerable and here is how I will share this with you."*
> 
> Owning your side of the street is the only thing that makes all the difference. (maybe this is just me?)


Great example of self-awareness and transparency. Thank you.


----------



## heartbroken0426

jld said:


> I think it's time for some compassion for waywards.
> 
> Honestly, I do not even like the term wayward. Maybe the "wayward" felt betrayed in some way, too.
> 
> I just think humans are weak, and probably in desperate need of compassion and understanding.
> 
> And, yes, some firm boundaries and definite consequences.
> 
> But do they have to wear the scarlet letter forever?


I can't believe this is even a post! I am a BS and there should not be compassion for a WS because there are so many other options the WS had besides cheating. Even if the marriage was terrible, even is the BS was psycho and rejecting sex or abusive and what not. Even if the BS had an affair first and now the other spouse is having one. No matter what the situation is, there is no excuse for cheating....NONE. Yes they should wear a scarlet letter for life because in the majority of circumstances, if someone cheated in a marriage...they will do it again. That's what my STBXH did.


----------



## Vega

samyeagar said:


> Circumstances leading to an affair aren't that unusual, or there wouldn't be so much of it.


Lest we forget that most MEN who have had cheated have claimed that they were "happily married" at the time they cheated. 

So, as for 'circumstances', we can easily see that a person can cheat because they didn't get that promotion at work, or because they DID get that promotion at work. The common denominator in both scenarios is the _CHEATER_ and NOT the 'circumstances'. 

IMHO, I think that the reason why cheating is so common isn't because there are so many opportunities; more like, there are so many irresponsible, immature people who use 'circumstances' as an excuse instead of growing up and taking responsibility for themselves.

Vega


----------



## Jung_admirer

Vega said:


> IMHO, I think that the reason why cheating is so common isn't because there are so many opportunities; more like, there are so many irresponsible, immature people who use 'circumstances' as an excuse instead of growing up and taking responsibility for themselves.


The OP alluded to the fact that punishment under Mosaic Law for infidelity was the stoning of both parties. Under Islamic law, it unfortunately appears only the female is stoned. The punishment aside, society sent a very clear message how serious infidelity is. Do you think the holders of the Old Testament were a bunch of overly sensitive dolts, or did they really consider infidelity to be the attempted murder of the soul? I don't need society to change its view, I simply need a partner who shares mine.


----------



## calvin

Stoned?
Fire it up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Seriously,quite a few times people do something stupid,mistake?...nope,it was
a choice,a very bad one that risked lives and hearts.
People do learn from their past,those who don't are doomed to repeat it.
I know people who have fvcked up big time and never made that stupid choice again.
Rare? Maybe but its true.Yes a lot of people do the same dumb thing over and over expecting
To find happiness or fulfillment only to dig their hole deeper and find more misery.
People can and do change for the better,sometimes the worst.
It depends on what you have inside you.
Some have what it takes,some don't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Laurel

AlmostYoung said:


> Many here have said something like:
> 
> "I don't think you can say how you would react until you are actually faced with infidelity"
> 
> I agree… and this goes both ways. I know of many who said infidelity would be a deal breaker for them. Yet when it actually happened they reconsidered.
> 
> Infidelity does not have to mean the end of the M, and in fact usually isn’t. All one has to do is look at the statistics to see this is the case.
> 
> What both partners do after the fact to mend and strengthen the relationship is another matter. Seems to me, many things are required, including compassion on both sides.
> 
> It won't be easy, but divorce never is either.


This is so true. I am living proof. 

For as long as I can remember, I was always very vocal about how I would NEVER give a cheater a second chance. I looked on incredulously when betrayed spouses would take the cheater back (whether it was famous people in the news or people in real life). A couple years back, a close friend of mine went through infidelity with her husband and gave him another chance. I supported her decision outwardly, but in my head I thought she was crazy (they stayed together and are very happy now). And I was so thankful for my own husband who I KNEW without a shadow of a doubt would never do such a thing. 

And then it happened to me. And things all of the sudden weren't so black and white as it appeared to be from the outside looking in. The many shades of gray were blinding. 

As it turns out, it is VERY different when something like this actually happens to you. Every situation unique - some WS deserve all the fire that comes down on them, and some deserve a second chance. There is no one size fits all when it comes to this. Going through this horrible experience myself has definitely made me less judgmental of other people's choices in life.


----------



## kitty2013

Laurel said:


> This is so true. I am living proof.
> 
> For as long as I can remember, I was always very vocal about how I would NEVER give a cheater a second chance. I looked on incredulously when betrayed spouses would take the cheater back (whether it was famous people in the news or people in real life). A couple years back, a close friend of mine went through infidelity with her husband and gave him another chance. I supported her decision outwardly, but in my head I thought she was crazy (they stayed together and are very happy now). And I was so thankful for my own husband who I KNEW without a shadow of a doubt would never do such a thing.
> 
> And then it happened to me. And things all of the sudden weren't so black and white as it appeared to be from the outside looking in. The many shades of gray were blinding.
> 
> As it turns out, it is VERY different when something like this actually happens to you. * Every situation unique - some WS deserve all the fire that comes down on them, and some deserve a second chance. * There is no one size fits all when it comes to this. Going through this horrible experience myself has definitely made me less judgmental of other people's choices in life.



:iagree:

When my ex cheated on me, I was in terrible pain. I told myself I would never ever let my man seeing me in bed with another man because I witnessed my ex and the OW together. It was horrible. I thought of myself as incapable for cheating. I was wrong. 

Years later, I found myself in an EA online for 3 months. I knew it was wrong. I made the decision to stop before it went too far. I never had a thought of meeting the OM for sex or any of that. 
It is easy to avoid PA (at least for me), but what about EA? How do you control your feelings or your mind? 
If you said "yes, you can", then why don't people just choose to stop feeling hurt? Why don't people choose to stop thinking about sex? Can you choose to stop loving someone right away without trying?

I found myself truly infatuated with that guy for a couple weeks and the feeling was fading very fast. The EA started with pure friendship. When I realized feeling was involved, I fought myself to stop. It was not easy to stop fantasy, but it stopped because that was what I wanted. I had never really loved that online OM. It was still an EA. I am still a WS regardless of my efforts to set boundaries when I was in the fog.

It is really unfair to consider all cheaters the same.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

AlmostYoung said:


> Thanks NN,
> 
> Like every other spouse I wasn’t perfect, and I’ve taken responsibility for my shortcomings, and have addressed them.
> 
> I’ve learned a lot about MLC over the last two years, and it really is about them, their unresolved childhood issues, their regrets, etc. Death of someone close is often a trigger, as this brings the realization of the shortness of life to the forefront. An Awakening. I’ve heard “I’ve wasted 30 years of my life” many times over.
> 
> I highly doubt she cheated on me, as even now we still have a good emotional connection. She tells me about her times out with friends and such, in a way that I know is real, not faked. I never snoop, but she often shows and tells me about her FB postings even though I never ask. When you’ve been as close as we were, for as long as we were, it’s damn near impossible to get away with lying or concealing. YMMV.
> 
> She needs this time to figure herself out, and I have given it to her. She is completely free to do what she wants, including find another man, leave me and the marriage. Yet she is still here. I am too, because I still feel that eventually we will end up with a marriage and closeness that most could only dream of.


A Y

In reality none of us can judge better than you the correct strategy to bring your marriage back. It wouldn't be uncompassionate though to sit your wife down and tell her that your needs are important too, and that she hasnt been willing to meet them for quite some time now.

Have you guys talked about separation? Have you thought of doing that or something else to force some closure on this state of limbo? She might fear losing you, when push comes to shove, which might help your situation.


----------



## kitty2013

BTW, I knew a lady who cheated on her husband. 
She cheated on him while they were in the divorce process. There was no possible R. He raped her youngest sister, who was only a small child. She was in a horrible emotional mess and she needed a guy to care for her. The OM was there for her to support her and to help her with her kids. 

She was still a cheater because she was still a married woman at that time. She was still a WS. Would you be faithful to that POS husband? How would you define cheating? Every situation is unique. Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. 

It is like giving the same punishment for a person who is killing someone for fun vs. killing someone for self defense. It is still a murder.


----------



## Vega

kitty2013;6695001
It is easy to avoid PA (at least for me) said:


> How do you control your feelings or your mind?


By not putting yourself in that position to begin with. By having enough self-awareness and self-control. 

By 'self-awareness' I mean that you can use the knowledge you already have about men, women, sex, and relationships to prevent yourself from starting down that slippery slope. If you see a man who you think is physically attractive, you can have enough self-awareness to understand what you're feeling, to NOT 'GO THERE'. You can 'trick' yourself by saying something like "Yeah, he looks YUMMY...and he's probably an *abusive AXE MURDERER/narcissistic sociopath*!" 

Plus, one of the FIRST things you find out about someone is if they're married or otherwise 'taken'. If the answer is 'yes', it's your cue to *BACK OFF*. Most people don't INSTANTLY 'fall in love' with someone in the first few minutes they meet...

If you make it a point to find out someone's relationship 'status' UP FRONT, you can avoid a LOT of pain in the future by backing off, no matter how 'funny/charming/cute/buff they are.

Vega


----------



## kitty2013

Vega said:


> By not putting yourself in that position to begin with. By having enough self-awareness and self-control.
> 
> By 'self-awareness' I mean that you can use the knowledge you already have about men, women, sex, and relationships to prevent yourself from starting down that slippery slope. If you see a man who you think is physically attractive, you can have enough self-awareness to understand what you're feeling, to NOT 'GO THERE'. You can 'trick' yourself by saying something like "Yeah, he looks YUMMY...and he's probably an *abusive AXE MURDERER/narcissistic sociopath*!"
> 
> Plus, one of the FIRST things you find out about someone is if they're married or otherwise 'taken'. If the answer is 'yes', it's your cue to *BACK OFF*. Most people don't INSTANTLY 'fall in love' with someone in the first few minutes they meet...
> 
> If you make it a point to find out someone's relationship 'status' UP FRONT, you can avoid a LOT of pain in the future by backing off, no matter how 'funny/charming/cute/buff they are.
> 
> Vega


The online OM was single. He was talking to me as a friend, and he was talking to an online single girl at the same time. He told me he was interested in that girl. His physical appearance was not in the attractive category. There was no danger sign. What I found attractive was his mind, his willingness to listen, and share. I am highly suspicious now. 

P/S: I told myself that he farted all day long, had diarrhea everywhere, and I imagined the worse of him. I had a good laugh :lol:


----------



## Maricha75

kitty2013 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> When my ex cheated on me, I was in terrible pain. I told myself I would never ever let my man seeing me in bed with another man because I witnessed my ex and the OW together. It was horrible. I thought of myself as incapable for cheating. I was wrong.
> 
> Years later, I found myself in an EA online for 3 months. I knew it was wrong. I made the decision to stop before it went too far. I never had a thought of meeting the OM for sex or any of that.
> It is easy to avoid PA (at least for me), but what about EA? How do you control your feelings or your mind?
> If you said "yes, you can", then why don't people just choose to stop feeling hurt? Why don't people choose to stop thinking about sex? Can you choose to stop loving someone right away without trying?
> 
> I found myself truly infatuated with that guy for a couple weeks and the feeling was fading very fast. The EA started with pure friendship. When I realized feeling was involved, I fought myself to stop. It was not easy to stop fantasy, but it stopped because that was what I wanted. I had never really loved that online OM. It was still an EA. I am still a WS regardless of my efforts to set boundaries when I was in the fog.
> 
> It is really unfair to consider all cheaters the same.


Kitty, you sound like me. I, too, had online EA. There was never any question about PA, even when a guy came onto me. But, as Vega said, you just don't put yourself into that situation. You learn to recognize the signs, even/especially when it's someone who claims to want to be "just friends". It's how mine started out as well. But now? I give my husband access to everything. Mine occurred while i was gaming. Now, that doesn't mean I will never, ever go back to gaming. But, I did take a hiatus. If I go back to it, there will be boundaries, limitations, and rules. All of these were agreed upon with my husband. The point is that you need to guard yourself against it or, yes, it WILL happen again, no matter how much you may say "I will never do that again."


----------



## Vega

Jung_admirer said:


> The OP alluded to the fact that punishment under Mosaic Law for infidelity was the stoning of both parties. Under Islamic law, it unfortunately appears only the female is stoned. The punishment aside, *society sent a very clear message how serious infidelity is*. Do you think the holders of the Old Testament were a bunch of overly sensitive dolts, or did they really consider infidelity to be the attempted murder of the soul? I don't need society to change its view, I simply need a partner who shares mine.


Actually, by stoning WOMEN, society sent a very clear message how serious infidelity is *REGARDING WOMEN*. Although a similar punishment was assigned to men, the punishment was usually not carried out NEARLY as often. This is because of how women were viewed.

If you look in the OT, you'll see how often men are warned about the "snares of an _adulteress_" and virtually NOTHING warning women about the 'snares of a _male_ adulterer. Women were viewed as 'temptresses', yet men were the poor 'victims' of the woman's wiles. The 'poor' man was seduced. Again, if he gave in, it was the woman's _fault_. 

"_Overly_ sensitive" 'dolts'? If anything, I believe that those 'dolts' actually _*lacked*_ sensitivity to the feelings of women. Men were allowed to have more than one wife. But people didn't seem to 'get' (back then) that having to compete for your husband's attention with another one of his 'wives' was just as murderous to _HER_ soul as it was for HER to have an affair. 

How much do you think it killed HER soul to be forced to raise her husband's concubine's child? 

Do we really believe that people's feelings have changed much since OT times? Have we become LESS jealous? 

Vega


----------



## Vega

kitty2013 said:


> The online OM was single. He was talking to me as a friend, and he was talking to an online single girl at the same time. He told me he was interested in that girl. His physical appearance was not in the attractive category. There was no danger sign. What I found attractive was his mind, his willingness to listen, and share. I am highly suspicious now.


O.k. You have some good information here. But before I get into that, let me just say this: I don't consider ANYONE a "friend" unless I've known them for AT LEAST SEVERAL *YEARS*. And I'll tell ya, keeping that boundary has saved me a LOT of pain! 

You said that you found his mind 'attractive' and his willingness to listen 'attractive'. How long did you 'know' him before you started to find him 'attractive'? 

Personally, I think too many people get too involved too quickly. Think of how many people have met, dated, moved in together, got married, had a child...and got DIVORCED all within *4 years*! 

What about meeting someone online and 'falling in love' without ever meeting them...only to meet 6 months later, and be very disappointed....?

We seem to be in such a RUSH for a permanent relationship that we overlook GLARING WARNING SIGNS And one of the warning signs is getting too involved too quickly. 



> P/S: I told myself that he farted all day long, had diarrhea everywhere, and I imagined the worse of him. I had a good laugh :lol


:rofl::lol: Oh, *GAWD*! *wipes tears* For the SECOND time today, I'm getting another 'visual'...

You guys are _killin_' me here!

Vega


----------



## AlmostYoung

nuclearnightmare said:


> It wouldn't be uncompassionate though to sit your wife down and tell her that your needs are important too, and that she hasnt been willing to meet them for quite some time now.


I agree. I also think that it may not get me the results I hope for, at least not yet. She doesn't "feel it" for me right now. Neither of us can force that, it has to come naturally. It's the only way I want it. Feelings can and do change. They already have once!

The other issue is she is dealing with depression and low self esteem. (but slowly coming out of it) When you don't love yourself, it's not possible to love someone else. 

So, the plan right now is to allow her the time to figure her stuff out, and see where it leads. I know without a doubt I'm the best deal for her, the H only a fool would leave. It's up to her to figure this out before I give up.



> Have you guys talked about separation? Have you thought of doing that or something else to force some closure on this state of limbo? She might fear losing you, when push comes to shove, which might help your situation.


She talked a lot about moving out the first month or three after Bomb Drop. She's not going anywhere now. I view separation as dress rehearsal for D, (which I don't want) so I won't be suggesting that. I think it's much better to stay living together, and maintain the connection.

Yes, I'm pretty sure she would fear losing me if I pushed it. But then she may only go through the motions of R, and it wouldn't be real. I only want this if it's real, not "forced" by my actions. Plus, if you pull the "you might lose me" card, it too has to be real, in my opinion. You have to be ready to walk or it means nothing. Very bad idea to play this card before you are ready, because you corner yourself, or lose credibility.

But I do believe you can start "reality darting". She does understand I don't intend to stay in a sexless M forever.

Limbo's not so bad, at least mines not. I enjoy my life. Everyone should, no matter what's going on in their life.

Everyone thinks you have to resolve this stuff right away. You don't. Oftentimes the slow road garners us more lasting results.


----------



## Maricha75

Vega said:


> What about meeting someone online and 'falling in love' without ever meeting them...only to meet 6 months later, and be very disappointed....?
> 
> We seem to be in such a RUSH for a permanent relationship that we overlook GLARING WARNING SIGNS And one of the warning signs is getting too involved too quickly.


Oddly, enough, that is exactly how I met my husband... online. He lived about 1500 miles away from me and we met in person almost 3 months later. And, yes, I DID fall in love with him during that time. We talked everyday, emailed, chatted online. Meeting in person merely confirmed what we already knew. However, we did NOT get married immediately. We waited a little over a year before we married.


----------



## AlmostYoung

2ntnuf said:


> Someone who was a close friend of mine did this, below, about 12 years before my marriage problems. He just sat back and did nothing. He went to counseling for the problems she perceived in him. He went back for the same thing. He went with her to counseling. All the while, she was out dating. She was telling him how she wasn't sure about him after 25 or so years of marriage, two children who had been through or were in university, vacations, you name it.
> 
> He just accepted that if he lost her, he would lose most of his retirement and everything he had worked for all his life. He could not justify losing all of that. I'm pretty certain she cheated. He didn't prove anything, although he cried in my presence a couple of times. She put him through hell. I think that was the only time I saw him cry. They made it through and are not the same.
> 
> If you ask me, they are more business like with their marriage. It seems as though the love is gone. I imagine it's not, but it seems mechanical. It's heartbreaking. It truly is. There are reasons to look the other way. It tears your heart out, either way. Compassion? I think it's more, I have to do this to save the rest of my life. I don't have a choice. That's what I know about it. It was someone I knew for 47 years.


You're right, anything can happen, anyone can cheat. That's the reality. We can't control them. So knowing this, we make what we feel are the best choices for us.

Personally, I'd rather have regrets that I held on too long or trusted too much, than gave up to soon or never trusted fully. My W and M are worth that.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Jung_admirer said:


> With respect to all WS ... The BS listens to what you say today ("I will never have another EA/PA") and remembers what you have done in the past. The BS needs you to reveal what inside you has changed such that you would make a different choice next time. Please don't maintain that your conscious will is enough, because it was not enough the first time around.
> 
> For example, saying, "I see how much I hurt you, I can never hurt anyone like this again" is useless. Contrast this with, "I could not speak to you about our emotional disconnect because I could not endure that vulnerability. I chose a way to get my needs met at the expense of the trust and intimacy of our marriage. In IC, I have dealt with my inability to be vulnerable and here is how I will share this with you."
> 
> Owning your side of the street is the only thing that makes all the difference. (maybe this is just me?)


I agree with this. I don't put much stock in intentions to be honest. I put my stock in actions that avoid the precursors to an affair. Knowing myself, I can honestly say I don't know that I could never have another affair. What I do know, is what conditions have to exist in order for me to become open to an affair. Set up the conditions just right and dangle chocolate in front of my face and I'm probably going to fail eventually.

So I feel it best to keep my attention on avoiding those conditions rather than imagining I have different intentions. I had the best of intentions before I cheated the first time.

But I don't believe my having cheated before is any predictor of my cheating in the future... unless you're also able to predict that the conditions under which I will be tempted to cheat will also recur. It's quite a few conditions... but then, perhaps everyone's reasons for cheating rather than ending the relationship are different.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Vega said:


> Actually, by stoning WOMEN, society sent a very clear message how serious infidelity is *REGARDING WOMEN*. Although a similar punishment was assigned to men, the punishment was usually not carried out NEARLY as often. This is because of how women were viewed.
> 
> If you look in the OT, you'll see how often men are warned about the "snares of an _adulteress_" and virtually NOTHING warning women about the 'snares of a _male_ adulterer. Women were viewed as 'temptresses', yet men were the poor 'victims' of the woman's wiles. The 'poor' man was seduced. Again, if he gave in, it was the woman's _fault_.
> 
> "_Overly_ sensitive" 'dolts'? If anything, I believe that those 'dolts' actually _*lacked*_ sensitivity to the feelings of women. Men were allowed to have more than one wife. But people didn't seem to 'get' (back then) that having to compete for your husband's attention with another one of his 'wives' was just as murderous to _HER_ soul as it was for HER to have an affair.
> 
> How much do you think it killed HER soul to be forced to raise her husband's concubine's child?
> 
> Do we really believe that people's feelings have changed much since OT times? Have we become LESS jealous?
> 
> Vega


If what you say is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt otherwise, then Western society has devolved to treat men as poorly as it has always treated women with respect to infidelity. So we have equality in assessing betrayal .... AND indifference to mortal emotional wounds.


----------



## Jung_admirer

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I agree with this. I don't put much stock in intentions to be honest. I put my stock in actions that avoid the precursors to an affair. Knowing myself, I can honestly say I don't know that I could never have another affair. *What I do know, is what conditions have to exist in order for me to become open to an affair.* Set up the conditions just right and dangle chocolate in front of my face and I'm probably going to fail eventually.


We can agree to disagree ... You know the conditions that existed prior to this affair. Can you honestly say that you know all possible combinations of conditions that would lead to the same choice? Affairs meet certain needs, and the way to head them off at the pass is to become conscious (withdraw projections) of the unmet needs you were seeking to fulfill in the affair, and act on them openly.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

AlmostYoung said:


> I agree. I also think that it may not get me the results I hope for, at least not yet. She doesn't "feel it" for me right now. Neither of us can force that, it has to come naturally. It's the only way I want it. Feelings can and do change. They already have once!
> 
> The other issue is she is dealing with depression and low self esteem. (but slowly coming out of it) When you don't love yourself, it's not possible to love someone else.
> 
> So, the plan right now is to allow her the time to figure her stuff out, and see where it leads. I know without a doubt I'm the best deal for her, the H only a fool would leave. It's up to her to figure this out before I give up.
> 
> 
> 
> She talked a lot about moving out the first month or three after Bomb Drop. She's not going anywhere now. I view separation as dress rehearsal for D, (which I don't want) so I won't be suggesting that. I think it's much better to stay living together, and maintain the connection.
> 
> Yes, I'm pretty sure she would fear losing me if I pushed it. But then she may only go through the motions of R, and it wouldn't be real. I only want this if it's real, not "forced" by my actions. Plus, if you pull the "you might lose me" card, it too has to be real, in my opinion. You have to be ready to walk or it means nothing. Very bad idea to play this card before you are ready, because you corner yourself, or lose credibility.
> 
> But I do believe you can start "reality darting". She does understand I don't intend to stay in a sexless M forever.
> 
> Limbo's not so bad, at least mines not. I enjoy my life. Everyone should, no matter what's going on in their life.
> 
> Everyone thinks you have to resolve this stuff right away. You don't. Oftentimes the slow road garners us more lasting results.


Ok. At least she's aware your patience is not unlimited. Good luck A Y. I hope you get what you're shooting for.


----------



## soulpotato

calvin said:


> And I believe anyone would have a rough time if the AP kept taunting them.
> You can't say how you'd handle it unless you went through it.
> Yes it made it much harder but didn't stop me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This happened with me and my partner, too. Ex OW tried harassing both of us for more than a month. I kept blocking all the new email addresses (had already blocked numbers), but had a hard time convincing my partner that keeping contact with my ex OW was damaging if we were trying to evaluate our ability to rebuild.


----------



## soulpotato

2ntnuf said:


> I want to say that you aren't all condoning cheating. You are doing the same as what you accuse me of doing. You are just doing it in a more subtle manner. You are giving a green light to all those sitting on the fence, about affairs and revenge affairs. That, in my opinion, is heinous.


I don't think that's what people are doing. I can only speak for myself, but if my partner had a revenge affair because of what I've done, how on earth could I then say, "I refuse to forgive you or work things out with you!"? There's no way I could do that. It doesn't mean I'd be ok with it at all. But as I said, she's not a vengeful person, so it's unlikely that she'd have an RA. 



> It all reads like, if you are disrespected or have your feelings hurt in any way, it's alright to do whatever you perceive is justifiable revenge.


I don't think revenge is ever ok, but it sure seems to be popular. 



> Forgiveness is definitely not for the other person, but it is quite good to forgive ourselves. That does not include, taking the WS back. It does not include, patting them on the back, hugging them and telling them, "it's alright". That is patronizing them. It's disrespecting yourself and the WS.


I don't think there has been an expectation voiced here (or felt) that a WS should be taken back or told it's all right.



> They WS must know the decision was solely their own. Anything less, is a lie. They must know that it was not the BS's fault for their choice of how to handle their pain. They had many choices. They chose infidelity. If not done out of vengeance, divorce would have preceded the affair. There would have been no affair. It shows how weak they really are.


I would like to think most WSs here realize that. Again, I don't think WSs are automatically weak people, no matter how popular or oft-expressed that sentiment is. Times of weakness manifest in different ways for everyone. Unfortunately, for some of us, it was infidelity.



> These responses also make me think that what many of you are saying, is the BS is obligated to treat the WS with the same respect and trust as before the affair ever occurred. Levels of trust required are earned, in a good long-term relationship. Respect is earned. Love, if a decision, is earned, in a good relationship, through following the boundaries both partners agreed upon, before marriage and during. One of them is usually monogamy. Few who are serious about marriage, consider anything, but monogamy, healthy for a marriage.


I think it's understood that the WS has to earn love, trust, respect, and commitment back. Nothing I've read here reads to me as stating otherwise. I've personally spent over a year earning my own betrayed partner back. I've worked hard to get to this point, as has she.

Being abusive to the WS is another story, however, and there's a lot of that, IMHO.



> Many want to gloss over the affair and actions of the WS as being acceptable. They are not, unless agreed upon before the marriage. You must accept, as a WS, that you have breached this contract of marriage and accept responsibility for your actions. You knew there would be consequences. Even those who would believe they were given permission for an affair, know there are consequences for every action. It's pretty simple, really.


I'm confused about some of these inferences. Could be the fact that I'm recovering from severe food poisoning, LOL. Or maybe it's just me. But I really do not see glossing over occurring or being encouraged. That wouldn't fix anything. I think a lot of WSs are accepting responsibility and understand and accept the consequences. (Things aren't always as simple and linear as people like to make them out to be.)



> The BS knows they are responsible for there part in the unhappy marriage.


Actually, no, some of them really don't get that (at least for a while), mine included.



> This whole thread is about justification for wrongs done which the WS cannot accept responsibility for deciding to do. It is such a burden for them, they have to find a, "***** in the armor". That's truly a sad commentary on all of those who are trying to reconcile. I have to believe, those who are married to one of these, should read and think very carefully about all of this and what they truly believe about themselves and their WS.


This is the part of your post I'm really confused about. I'm not generally seeing justification. Do you think advocation of compassion = justification? I see "compassion" for a WS as just treating them like a human being. And a lot of former WSs on TAM seem to own what they did and take responsibility.

I also don't think talking about the state of the marriage/relationship pre-affair is justification. Humans are affected by their environments, and individual humans react differently to stressors, etc. Someone in a broken down state is going to be more vulnerable to all kinds of bad influences (like affairs), especially if they seem to offer comfort or respite. Some people will cheat, some will drink, some will leave, etc, etc. It just depends on that person's combos of traits, vulnerabilities, circumstances, and so on. Self-awareness is a biggie when it comes to avoiding self-destructive behaviors (like affairs).


----------



## AlmostYoung

2ntnuf said:


> Different perspectives coming from different people with differing lives. It's all good.


Sounds like compassion talk to me... get the stones! :lol:


----------



## TheGoodGuy

hawx20 said:


> Yeah once I had that little girl, the way I lived my life changed forever.
> 
> The day I am buried, she will be standing up in front of everyone giving a eulogy about her father. All that matters to me is what she says at that moment about the man who was her father. I live my life to make her proud to have a father like me.
> 
> There is no woman alive that I would betray my family over. Its a shame she didnt feel the same. In her case, it wasnt so much the OM, she betrayed her family for herself. The OM was just the easiest and most available penis to get.


I know I'm dredging up a week old post but wow. Well said sir. Same with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tacoma

jld said:


> I think it's time for some compassion for waywards.
> 
> Honestly, I do not even like the term wayward. Maybe the "wayward" felt betrayed in some way, too.
> 
> I just think humans are weak, and probably in desperate need of compassion and understanding.
> 
> And, yes, some firm boundaries and definite consequences.
> 
> But do they have to wear the scarlet letter forever?


Actually I don't have a single problem with anything stated in this OP.
In fact I agree with pretty much all of it.

Granted, I haven't read any further in this thread yet.


----------



## lonelyhusband321

Compassion for waywards is sort of like understanding for rapists to me - I have none.

There ARE people who can make it through good times AND bad times without compromising their core. Without lying and cheating to the VERY person in the whole world who should be able to COMPLETELY trust and rely on them.

When you become spouses, it is as though you BOTH disappear and merge into one. When you (the wayward) cheat on your spouse, you are, at many levels destroying what you have between you.

For that - no compassion. I have compassion for those who love and respect their SO and actually DO the hard work of making a marriage work, instead of just hopping into an "alternate relationship" and taking the EASY way out.

Just my opinion, and I know there are a LOT of others....


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## DvlsAdvc8

Jung_admirer said:


> We can agree to disagree ... You know the conditions that existed prior to this affair. Can you honestly say that you know all possible combinations of conditions that would lead to the same choice? *Affairs meet certain needs, and the way to head them off at the pass is to become conscious (withdraw projections) of the unmet needs you were seeking to fulfill in the affair, and act on them openly*.


I didn't see this reply to my post before this thread went cold. 

I don't think we're really disagreeing. I simply chose the word "conditions" vs your use of the word "needs". Unmet needs are *some* conditions that can lead to an affair, but there are many others.

Am I aware of all possible conditions? Surely not. But I do know of a set of conditions under which I am likely to if I met the right person. I believe my being more aware of those conditions today is one of the few positive takeaways from my own experience, and one that makes it less likely that I will have an affair in the future - I know what that path looks and feels like so as to give better voice to it or act more decisively.


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## Sanity

I don't judge anybody that cheats and call them names or want to throw them into the pits of hell. Some people just are not built for monogamy and need that constant "variety" I guess. 

Having said this, it really comes down to personal choice. I have know men and women who took back cheating spouses time and time again and when asked why the reasons were different but all of them decided that they would take them back. Who am I to judge? Now personally, I couldn't because I don't share well with others when it comes to my romantic partners. that's just me


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## Wolf1974

Sanity said:


> I don't judge anybody that cheats and call them names or want to throw them into the pits of hell. *Some people just are not built for monogamy and need that constant "variety" I guess. *
> 
> Having said this, it really comes down to personal choice. I have know men and women who took back cheating spouses time and time again and when asked why the reasons were different but all of them decided that they would take them back. Who am I to judge? Now personally, I couldn't because I don't share well with others when it comes to my romantic partners. that's just me


Agree but on the same hand they then should choose not to get married and make vows. If you want to live single and sleep with anybody cool. If you marry though it's part of the package to remain faithful. Unless swingers I guess


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## Sanity

Wolf1974 said:


> Agree but on the same hand they then should choose not to get married and make vows. If you want to live single and sleep with anybody cool. If you marry though it's part of the package to remain faithful. Unless swingers I guess


I agree but in a free society you pretty much can do anything as long as its legal. It's immoral to marry somebody and not be faithful but nobody I know of marries with a set plan to cheat. They should however be subject to the consequences. Personally I think documented infidelity should be grounds for loss of alimony benefits and martial assets as you violated the marriage vows.


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## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I am so sorry, LaQueso.
> *
> I guess I was thinking more about wayward wives.* I am sure I will get flames for that, too. But I think someone needed to speak up for compassion.
> 
> And maybe, like Sandfly said, it comes later, much later. But perhaps it comes eventually.


I challenge your motivation. I think you want people to agree with you that women are too weak and useless to be accountable for their actions. Poor wittle woman does not have a big enough, strong enough man to make her not be a cut throat, immoral turd. This is not rocket science. If your marriage is messed up, do something about it before you put your bits together with someone else. 

I have a buddy whose wife just walked away with her new stud after not a single word about any issue in their marriage. Ruined her husband and totally screwed over the kids. To the degree that I think of this woman, which is not a lot, compassion is not at the top of my list. And she doesn't need it. She is sitting pretty while Dad mops up the mess.


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