# Porn Perception



## Sakaye (Feb 15, 2011)

I didn't know where to post this - so I invite you to please come and share any advice you may have on this topic. I posted in Coping with Infidelity --
Please read thread here:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/23713-porn-perception-would-like-know-what-others-think.html#post287119


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

If you look up signs of porn addiction you will lots of help there. Its not just one particular thing, its usually a combination.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Perception, merception.

If you're a man:

- I need it
- I'm more visual, I need variety
- It's part of my biology, I can't help it
- It's not personal, the reason I'm not having sex with my wife has NOTHING to do with it

If you're a woman:

- What's wrong with me?
- I can't compete 
- I do everything he wants in the bedroom, why am I not enough?
- It makes me feel like I'm nothing and is destroying my self-esteem

There's your perceptions.

I'm sure the other men/women can weigh in with their 2 cents worth.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Perception, merception.
> 
> If you're a man:
> 
> ...


Married, you forgot one. A man not looking at porn would be the equivalent of a woman trying to stop her period. Yes, that was actually said.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Ouch !!


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Brennan said:


> Married, you forgot one. A man not looking at porn would be the equivalent of a woman trying to stop her period. Yes, that was actually said.


There's a pill for that! But that would be like saying men find porn gross, painful, and akin to a curse...doesnt seem to equate.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Blanca said:


> There's a pill for that! But that would be like saying men find porn gross, painful, and akin to a curse...doesnt seem to equate.


Yes, medical intervention would be necessary for a woman to stop her period. I doubt the same could be said for porn.  It was an interesting albeit hilarious comparision.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

I find the more sex I get, the less I watch porn/think about sex in general. I have an insanely high sex drive, and my wife has it pretty low right now (had two babies 2 years in a row). 


I am assuming this is a "perception, merception" of a porn addict right? A guy looking at porn is nothing to really be worried about, but then again the couple times I saw my wife read those dam romance novels I was WTF! I was fine with it, but it does shock a guy sometimes as well. 


MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Perception, merception.
> 
> If you're a man:
> 
> ...


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Bigwayneo said:


> I find the more sex I get, the less I watch porn/think about sex in general. I have an insanely high sex drive, and my wife has it pretty low right now (had two babies 2 years in a row).


Could you say no if you wanted to, though? If you dont get sex does it control your emotions? Do you hide it? When i was having issues with my H my sex drive was running my life- and my attitude. I find it completely liberating that Im in control of my sexual appetite now. My H can say he doesnt want sex and I dont turn into a mean, bitter person that's desperately trying to satiate my need. Dont get me wrong, i still have the need, but it doesnt control me anymore.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Married, you forgot one. A man not looking at porn would be the equivalent of a woman trying to stop her period. Yes, that was actually said.


You're right!

I remember and I also remember who said it...


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Blanca said:


> Could you say no if you wanted to, though? If you dont get sex does it control your emotions? Do you hide it? When i was having issues with my H my sex drive was running my life- and my attitude. I find it completely liberating that Im in control of my sexual appetite now. My H can say he doesnt want sex and I dont turn into a mean, bitter person that's desperately trying to satiate my need. Dont get me wrong, i still have the need, but it doesnt control me anymore.


And that's exactly where I've finally made it to.

It doesn't control me anymore.

When I get enough (and I'll eventually get there), then I'll take care of it and find someone who does want me.

In the meantime, he's the one missing out - not me (not anymore).


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Bigwayneo said:


> I find the more sex I get, the less I watch porn/think about sex in general. I have an insanely high sex drive, and my wife has it pretty low right now (had two babies 2 years in a row).
> 
> 
> I am assuming this is a "perception, merception" of a porn addict right? A guy looking at porn is nothing to really be worried about, but then again the couple times I saw my wife read those dam romance novels I was WTF! I was fine with it, but it does shock a guy sometimes as well.


Are you comparing a "romance novel" to someone actually watching two people get it on?

Or the web cams and live sex shows?

I find a HUGE difference between the two.

If my husband was reading "trashy romance novels", we wouldn't be in the situation we're in right now.


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## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Are you comparing a "romance novel" to someone actually watching two people get it on?
> 
> Or the web cams and live sex shows?
> 
> ...


I'm confused...are you saying that you don't think that romance novels are as stimulating and addictive to women as visual porn is to men? 

Yes, Porn and romance novels are different, but I personally don't believe the differences are *that* huge. Women read romance novels for the same reason men watch porn--to be stimulated and turned on. To seek variety. To find an outlet. It becomes a problem when it begins interfering with the relationship, though. Just my $.02 though...I'm sure many will disagree.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

MGirl said:


> I'm confused...are you saying that you don't think that romance novels are as stimulating and addictive to women as visual porn is to men?
> 
> Yes, Porn and romance novels are different, but I personally don't believe the differences are *that* huge. Women read romance novels for the same reason men watch porn--to be stimulated and turned on. To seek variety. To find an outlet. It becomes a problem when it begins interfering with the relationship, though. Just my $.02 though...I'm sure many will disagree.


i think you are right about the porn and novel comparison except for 1 HUGE difference...
the novels dont actually exploit real people.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

MGirl said:


> I'm confused...are you saying that you don't think that romance novels are as stimulating and addictive to women as visual porn is to men?
> 
> Yes, Porn and romance novels are different, but I personally don't believe the differences are *that* huge. Women read romance novels for the same reason men watch porn--to be stimulated and turned on. To seek variety. To find an outlet. It becomes a problem when it begins interfering with the relationship, though. Just my $.02 though...I'm sure many will disagree.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Blanca said:


> Could you say no if you wanted to, though? If you dont get sex does it control your emotions? Do you hide it? When i was having issues with my H my sex drive was running my life- and my attitude. I find it completely liberating that Im in control of my sexual appetite now. My H can say he doesnt want sex and I dont turn into a mean, bitter person that's desperately trying to satiate my need. Dont get me wrong, i still have the need, but it doesnt control me anymore.


Depends on length of time. Won't lie 2 or 3 days without getting off does get me crabby, but I don't need porn to choke the chicken. I can just as easily think of having sex with my wife and go at it. If it was not for the A I would NEVER turn down sex with my wife.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> i think you are right about the porn and novel comparison except for 1 HUGE difference...
> the novels dont actually exploit real people.


Exploit real people? Sure some of the trashy, "amateur" Russian girl stuff might. But some of the big named porn stars get paid pretty dam good money. If you want to get high and mighty like then don't buy anything made in another country.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

You have this in here and in the infidelity forum, might be best to post one place.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

I grew up with all kinds of porn but then 12 years ago I started going to church. OMG they convinced me that it was all bad and something to be scared of. It wasn't until the argument I had the other night with my dh over trashy romance novels that I started to question what I really believed.

I came to the conclusion that porn wasn't anything to be feared. The women aren't being exploited (they willingly chose that profession and are paid well). And romance novels ARE porn. They are there for the purpose of stimulating women and are very graphic.

I'm tired of living my life in fear. If my husband wanted to look at porn I'd support that. If it got out of hand I'd deal with it then but not a minute before.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

Bigwayneo said:


> Exploit real people? Sure some of the trashy, "amateur" Russian girl stuff might. But some of the big named porn stars get paid pretty dam good money. If you want to get high and mighty like then don't buy anything made in another country.


:lol:
i dont need any of it. i have an imagination and get plenty from my girl when ever i get to see her.
otherwise there is web-cam with my girl and my own pics of her, so i dont buy or watch anything from ANY country.

not being high and mighty, just dont need it. 

and yes, plenty of women are exploited, even from the big name american companies.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> i dont need any of it. i have an imagination and get plenty from my girl when ever i get to see her.
> otherwise there is web-cam with my girl and my own pics of her, so i dont buy or watch anything from ANY country.
> 
> not being high and mighty, just dont need it.
> ...


Tell me something as I am very curious to know.....I understand you don't NEED it - I see you are engaged to Syrum and enjoy "doing her'. I take it you are not strict Christians by faith so why the disdain for others enjoying a little porn? 

Is this all about women being exploited, you feel all women in porn are being taken against their will somehow, pretty girls with perfect bodies have no other choices in life? 

We don't NEED it either, we just happen to LIKE it - and choose to ENJOY it. So we are exploiters in your view, not sinners, just exploiters??


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Tell me something as I am very curious to know.....I understand you don't NEED it - I see you are engaged to Syrum and enjoy "doing her'. I take it you are not strict Christians by faith so why the disdain for others enjoying a little porn?
> 
> Is this all about women being exploited, you feel all women in porn are being taken against their will somehow, pretty girls with perfect bodies have no other choices in life?
> 
> We don't NEED it either, we just happen to LIKE it - and choose to ENJOY it. So we are exploiters in your view, not sinners, just exploiters??


Firstly, I would say, it's not that we have never watched porn and I'm very sure my fiance has watched more then me.

This was all addressed in the porn thread a while back, however i will attempt to address some of the questions.

Yes the women in mainstream American porn are exploited. 
- Compared to the companies they work in they earn very little money. 
- Most of the women in porn come from poor socioeconomic backgrounds. So it stands to reason if women love making porn so much why don't rich women line up to do it also?
- Most of the women in porn have been sexually abused.
- most of the women are very young (and this is of concern because we know now that brain does not fully develope untill people are well into their 20's, this makes risk taking much more likely).
- Most of the women in porn are on drugs or are pressured into taking drugs, because most people in the business will admit it's an awful business to be in and it helps keep the girls coming and back and "performing"
- women are often raped, coerced and abused in the making of American mainstream porn.
-women in porn are pressured to have plastic surgery.
-Porn is bad for men, porn is the junk food of sex, it is no substitute for the real thing.
-even small amounts have been shown to change men's brains and they way they view women and lessen men's empathy for women
-Studies show men who view porn regularly, feel their own sex lives are lacking, they also measure their SO's against the women in porn and feel more dissatisfied in bed and with the looks of their girl if they watch regular porn.
- the women in porn are real people, they really made that movie and had sex, they are not one dimensional sex robots, by watching porn you are bringing another real person into your sex life, even if you don't want to see it that way.
- Half of all traficked women end up in the sex industry (stripping, prostitution and porn) if you do any of those things it's highly likely you have encountered modern day slavery. 

I choose not to partake in activities where women are exploited. today people are so selfish and it's all about ME ME ME, and what feels good in the moment. There is a lot to be said for human compassion, and empathy, and taking the time to look at the broader implications of things and how we treat women as a society. My orgasm does not trump other peoples human rights.

One last thing, it's never Ok to buy and sell people, they are human beings not commodities. This is very important to me.

I have more to say, but that's all I can think of in this moment.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Yes, medical intervention would be necessary for a woman to stop her period. I doubt the same could be said for porn.  It was an interesting albeit hilarious comparision.


They make pills that chemically castrate a man.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Syrum said:


> Firstly, I would say, it's not that we have never watched porn and I'm very sure my fiance has watched more then me.
> 
> This was all addressed in the porn thread a while back, however i will attempt to address some of the questions.
> 
> ...


Amen Sister! -just because we don't see, feel or are directly affected by the exploitation, doesn't mean that enjoying that exploitation is not wrong because it is.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Amen Sister! -just because we don't see, feel or are directly affected by the exploitation, doesn't mean that enjoying that exploitation is not wrong because it is.


 So true, and thank you Trenton. I all ways read everything you have to say with great interest, because you are very well written, very interesting and empathetic in your responses to people. So thank you!


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> I grew up with all kinds of porn but then 12 years ago I started going to church. OMG they convinced me that it was all bad and something to be scared of. It wasn't until the argument I had the other night with my dh over trashy romance novels that I started to question what I really believed.
> 
> I came to the conclusion that porn wasn't anything to be feared. The women aren't being exploited (they willingly chose that profession and are paid well). And romance novels ARE porn. They are there for the purpose of stimulating women and are very graphic.
> 
> I'm tired of living my life in fear. If my husband wanted to look at porn I'd support that. If it got out of hand I'd deal with it then but not a minute before.


Glad that you came to that conclusion. I feel the same way; porn is nothing to be insecure about unless it is replacing marital sex. There is a small segment of the sex industry that engages in pedophilia and forced prostitution.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> I grew up with all kinds of porn but then 12 years ago I started going to church. OMG they convinced me that it was all bad and something to be scared of. It wasn't until the argument I had the other night with my dh over trashy romance novels that I started to question what I really believed.
> 
> I came to the conclusion that porn wasn't anything to be feared. The women aren't being exploited (they willingly chose that profession and are paid well). And romance novels ARE porn. They are there for the purpose of stimulating women and are very graphic.
> 
> I'm tired of living my life in fear. If my husband wanted to look at porn I'd support that. If it got out of hand I'd deal with it then but not a minute before.


I am guessing you have never worked in porn. Yes, they might have "willingly" chosen it but none and I mean none of them had the upbringing that would support a healthier line of work. Sexual abuse, incest, drug addiction to overcome their past, etc., is the norm among most female porn "stars". As for the money, that is debatable. Sure, $100k if you are lucky for 28 films during the year with retakes and such that last hours. Would you want a 2 hour anal sex session? I doubt it. It isn't easy money, that's for sure. 
Romance novels is the same as porn? That is a writer who types out a novel of fictitious people for the sake of getting women hot and horny. Porn is real people with real lives and all their issues and further exploits them in the most graphic way.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Firstly, I would say, it's not that we have never watched porn and I'm very sure my fiance has watched more then me.
> 
> This was all addressed in the porn thread a while back, however i will attempt to address some of the questions.
> As I say below I worked my way up when replying, but did you get your info from like 10+ years ago? and from what "Statistics"?
> ...


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Brennan said:


> I am guessing you have never worked in porn.


Am i just reading into this or have you worked in the porn industry?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Blanca said:


> Am i just reading into this or have you worked in the porn industry?


I did one film when I was 19. I have posted about this here. My scenes were deleted as I was not "performance material" i.e cried. 
It isn't a pretty industry and anybody who thinks it is and that the women love it and the money is awesome is delusional.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Crying porn? That's pretty specialized.


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## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Romance novels is the same as porn? That is a writer who types out a novel of fictitious people for the sake of getting women hot and horny. Porn is real people with real lives and all their issues and further exploits them in the most graphic way.


Brennan-I do agree with you here. Visual porn is not the same as romance novels. Can we say that they both fall under the category of erotic stimulation, though? That's kind of what I meant in the first place. 

The point I was trying to make was that women read romance novels for the *exact* same reasons that men watch visual porn. For excitement, for variety, for an outlet.

Can they both be addictive? You betcha. 

And they can both create unrealistic expectations. They both have the ability to damage a relationship badly if they get out of control. 

The reasons for reading/watching and the possible end results are the same. I wasn't referring to the fact that visual porn involves real people. I agree with you completely on that fact.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Crying porn? That's pretty specialized.


That has to be without a doubt the most insensitive comment I have ever read on this website.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

Sonny said:


> i'm curious, how is it that a woman can read too many romance novels and have it damage her marriage? are they addicting?


Romance novels play on a woman's emotions and make it very easy to create a fantasy world. The problem is, it's just a fantasy. It's not reality. The characters in the books are running on raw puppy love and hormones and the situations are exciting and daring. They're fun to read, but if you read them enough, your own life suddenly pales in comparison. I struggled with it a bit a few months ago before I recognized what I was doing. I was running back to the novels every chance I got, to immerse myself in a world where the sex is always perfect and exciting, the men are thrilling and there is always a happy ending. They are very erotic, just as porn is, and they're downright addictive if you let yourself keep going back to them for that rush. And it can create ridiculously unrealistic expectations about sex if you can't recognize that it's just fiction and isn't going to happen in real life.

They won't be addicting to every woman, just like porn isn't addictive to everyone. But the opportunity is there, yes.


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

Anything can be addicting. Just as pornography can create an unrealistic perception of the perfect physical woman, romance novels can create an unrealistic perception of the perfect emotional man. There's a line of novels, "American Romance," that consists almost exclusively of single dads being over their head with parenthood, who need understanding, mothering women to take care of them. There are several different lines produced by Harlequin, but all of them reinforce gender stereotypes to one degree or another (and you can go read their submission guidelines to verify that).

Plus, they have an unhealthy obsession with cowboys, British royalty, billionaires, sheikhs, and Scotsman. Basically any situation where the men are men.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Romance novels are built around the imagination. The porn industry is built around and promotes the objectification of real women. You can call this over exaggeration or whatever else you might fancy to keep you and your wife wanking or rubbing one off, but the reality is the same.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Dr. Rockstar said:


> What about animated porn? In China, Japan, Korea and other places, there isn't much "live" porn available... I believe that anime is the predominant form of pornography. And by most western definitions, a lot of it is really out there (Google "tentacle rape").
> 
> Are you saying if you switched out the amount of live porn a man watches in a given month for animated porn, that would be completely different, more comparable to romance novels, and otherwise allowable?


Yes, I personally think so. If you want to compare something to romance novels it has to be fiction. I believe anime qualifies as that for sure. 

Although...IanIronWood had me convinced that Japan was on the cutting edge of female robot sex slaves that were as good as real women! Now that I know most of Asia has a mean average penis size of 3.8 inches I'm guessing the reasons for the robot are vast. 

With Japan in its current state it's hard to feel anything but empathy for them--raise money, send rations, hope and prayers. What happened to Japan are the worst nightmares that most humans haven't even thought to think up. I feel very upset about what the Japanese are currently facing. I admit it has nothing to do with porn but if I read "Japan", emotionally, I am at a loss instantly.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Dr. Rockstar said:


> Anything can be addicting. Just as pornography can create an unrealistic perception of the perfect physical woman, romance novels can create an unrealistic perception of the perfect emotional man. There's a line of novels, "American Romance," that consists almost exclusively of single dads being over their head with parenthood, who need understanding, mothering women to take care of them. There are several different lines produced by Harlequin, but all of them reinforce gender stereotypes to one degree or another (and you can go read their submission guidelines to verify that).
> 
> Plus, they have an unhealthy obsession with cowboys, British royalty, billionaires, sheikhs, and Scotsman. Basically any situation where the men are men.


I don't believe those trashy romance novels are healthy either, but are completely different to porn and have a different effect on the brain.

Animated porn that from japan is often violent and degrading to women. Some of it is so horrendous that it makes me ill and I'm sure I've only seen a tiny amount of what is really out there. there is a lot or rape porn etc. perhaps there is a corelation to the value of women and the fact that women are allowed to be depicted in such a way on such a huge scale both in porn and in places like Japan in animated porn. 
To me when people recognize the true value of someone or something they recognize it in all it's glory and do not reduce it to a one dimensional object, or three holes to f$#k and treat how you will. This never promotes connection and good sex.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Bigwayneo said:


> *This was all addressed in the porn thread a while back, however i will attempt to address some of the questions.
> As I say below I worked my way up when replying, but did you get your info from like 10+ years ago? and from what "Statistics"?
> Yes the women in mainstream American porn are exploited.
> - Compared to the companies they work in they earn very little money.*
> NO KIDDING! Name any exception to this? Care salesmen, retail, bartender, even movie stars make small fractions of what the company makes.


Actually considering porn films often make on par with what holly wood films make why aren't actors getting a lot more money? i know why because society deems them as not important, not real people, just porn stars, ****s etc. they are just so valued *sigh*
and the difference being that car salesmen do not take their clothes off and become their most vulnerable, and have a huge risk raped/ abused and sexually used for a living. I do not agree with any industry underpaying it';s workers and absolutely am not a fan of capitalism . there is a big difference between selling a car and selling your body! not to mention society does not hold sex workers in high esteem. 




> - Most of the women in porn come from poor socioeconomic backgrounds. So it stands to reason if women love making porn so much why don't rich women line up to do it also?
> I agree with this one, but you use what mama gave you.


I don't know your background but suffice to say most of the people on here come from a position of privilege in society, some people don't have the empathy to understand that not everyone comes from the same starting point, and that just because some feels they have limited choices in life doesn't mean it's OK to exploit that. The right thing to do would be to be disgusted by this and change our attitudes and try and ensure we have social change so that everyone gets a better chance at life. The wrong thing is to kick someone when they are down and I believe that is what porn does.



> - *Most of the women in porn have been sexually abused.*
> More then likely, but define that? If you are saying on the job rough sex....yeah its there job, off camera? maybe, as I say below later on (doing this backwards) I doubt the big, big production companies would allow that.


I am talking about in childhood. This is a statistic that is very alarming, and most of the women have suffered sexual abuse and rape in other relationships too, it's a cycle, and these women are not OK where there sexuality is concerned, but why not exploit that some more?

I have no doubt that the big production companies exploit and abuse girls. Jenna Jameson talks about it in her book actually.



> - *most of the women are very young (and this is of concern because we know now that brain does not fully develop un till people are well into their 20's, this makes risk taking much more likely).*
> This I agree with. But at the same time I see plenty of porn stars who go on and make porn well into there 40s, by then there brain is devolped and should be able to make wiser choices, a big example (and big business women) jesse jameson


Very few women in porn make a lot of porn, most are exploited and find it so traumatic they don't come back, some do because they are hooked on drugs or have no other means of support, are very uneducated and lack self worth. But really that's cool right? I don't think it's Ok to take advantage of vulnerable people, call me crazy or ethical but whatever.

And did you mean Jenna Jameson? she is one of the few women who has made it big in the industry and she recognizes that the conditions are terrible, the pay is bad, women are exploited and abused etc. I will post a link later to some of her comments about the industry.



> - Most of the women in porn are on drugs or are pressured into taking drugs, because most people in the business will admit it's an awful business to be in and it helps keep the girls coming and back and "performing"
> Peer pressure again? maybe maybe not yet again I doubt the mainstream (bigger companies) do this, maybe they do....but unless they are tying the girls down they still have the option of no.


Seriously whatever it takes to justify your porn use. But yes some women are raped and forced in the making of movies. And perhaps you lack an understanding about how society and choices are made. We don't live in a vacum and statistics show us that when faced with poverty and hopelessness and despair that people will do some pretty crazy stuff, at least it seems crazy to those of privileged enough not to have to experience it at that level.
I have been a young poor single mother, and while I would never have "chosen" porn for me, it may be because I did have parents who cared for me, I had a support network who encouraged me to certain things, sometimes i may have just gotten the helping hand I need to stay out of trouble. Why knows how many times i was saved from doing something drastic (not porn but something else) all because of luck and circumstance. It helps to have empathy and to be able to see the position others may be faced with in what may lead to their decisions. 

All this coupled by the fact that we have men everywhere saying women in porn are great, sexy, desirable etc. This is what young women should aspire to because men clearly love pornified women. Society also ties womens value to their looks and sexuality. No ones stating the cold hard facts or telling women they are worth more, in fact we see a lot of the opposite, just as you do BigWano, you help girls and women see their value is in their f&*kability. So it's no wonder some girls choose this path. 



> - *women are often raped, coerced and abused in the making of American mainstream porn.*
> I would like to see proof of this to any of the big names out right now (a few examples, bang brothers, Naughty america, reality kings, freeones.) It sounds like this could whole issue could be like food. Dont like how factory farms raise there cows? dont buy meat from them.


I would state with confidence that so many women are abused in the making or porn that it's staggering. And do you know why no one cares, because women outside of porn have a hard time getting people to care. there is a lot of shame and blaming that happens when women are sexually assaulted or raped in society, let alone with the added stigma of being a porn star. Who was of course asking for it. I mean what was she there for? Without the element of the sex industry I believe it's 1 in 3 women who are sexually abuse/ assaulted/ raped in their life time and do know how many men are convicted for this? The number is tiny, because of the fear, and shame factor less then 70% of sexual assaults are reported and only 1 in 10 (out of the 20 something % reported) ever has a conviction rate. this is true for Australia and the rates i believe are slightly worse for the US. So that would be a conviction rate of about 2% (I believe, I'm not great at maths lol) where everyday women not in the sex industry are concerned. That is shocking. 
Here is an interesting piece about that from the Australian Institute of criminology.

Australian Institute of Criminology - Juror attitudes and biases in sexual assault cases

as evidenced by one of your answers women in porn are no longer seen as real people. They are just a f&*kable object, so why does it matter if they are abused? 



> -*women in porn are pressured to have plastic surgery.*
> And Barbie pressured girls to be all skinny, big boobed, blonde, and long legged....I see romantic novels ...


I don't like barbie either, and i agree, that unrealistic expectations are sometimes placed on men and that is also wrong, however not to such a huge and over whelming scale.



> *-Porn is bad for men, porn is the junk food of sex, it is no substitute for the real thing.*
> No kidding, agree with most people here that guys that are porn addicts need help. I would give anything to have sex as often a I watch porn. But until some issues are resolved that won't happened to take steroids to look like the guys on the cover.



Start with not watching porn and focus on your relationship and how you could make it better with the time you used to spend watching porn. it's a start. I just don't know why not getting enough sex is a reason to start dehumanizing women. there are lots of things I think I'd like or do in fact need, but i would not exploit my fellow man to get it. In fact i no longer buy my favourite chocolate brand because they exploit young men and boys to make the product, and it's just not cool. 



> -*even small amounts have been shown to change men's brains and they way they view women and lessen men's empathy for women*
> Talk about being generalized in an opinion.


No not generalized i have seen many studies done on this. I believe 100% that it is true. 

I will post a link below with info.





> Maybe some men do, but talk about a generalization. I would much rather have my wife then porn, but when I don't get it, or its that time of the month, porn it is.


Great, but you will never know how porn has effected you, most people don't understand the way they subtly influenced by many things. Studies show that men who view porn do have less empathy for women and their views on women change. Even though they themselves are unable to recognize that, because to them it just is, it's their norm now. In fact when viewing what used to be hard core and is now mainstream porn most men were unable to see the violence and degradation towards women in porn, and viewed it as just porn and sex.



> *- the women in porn are real people, they really made that movie and had sex, they are not one dimensional sex robots, by watching porn you are bringing another real person into your sex life, even if you don't want to see it that way.*
> 
> HAHAHA What? give me a break. That so far fetch its crazy


 Really, well I find that insulting. Do you not believe that the woman you are watching is a real person, with, hopes and dreams and life? :scratchhead: I'm genuinely puzzled by why she is not a real person? What is crazy is the desensitization of society and lack of empathy and connection between people. 


> And though I agree a lot of the porn out there does involve that, I assure A good majority from the bigger names do not


. 
False people just don't seem to care, they will turn their backs on the information because it suits them to do so, after all we can't possibly stop exploiting and abusing women, however will men orgasm?


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

> 102 The current porn epidemic gives a graphic demonstration that sexual tastes can be acquired. Pornography, delivered by high-speed Internet connections, satisfies every one of the prerequisites for neuroplastic change [forming new neural circuitry- a key piece in addiction].
> 
> Pornography seems, at first glance, to be a purely instinctual matter: sexually explicit pictures trigger instinctual responses, which are the product of millions of years of evolution. But if that were true, pornography would be unchanging. The same triggers, bodily parts and their proportions, that appealed to our ancestors would excite us. This is what pornographers would have us believe, for they claim they are battling sexual repression, taboo, and fear and that their goal is to liberate the natural, pent-up sexual instincts.
> 
> ...


Norman Doidge on pornography and neuroplasticity - worthwhile reading | Reuniting


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Syrum said:


> Norman Doidge on pornography and neuroplasticity - worthwhile reading | Reuniting


what a great read. I really liked how he explained that porn use creates a hyperactive nervous tension that's never really satisfied. I get that feeling when looking at porn. it feels so unsettling. I liked what he said about the men becoming increasingly interested in f***ing instead of making love, too. that is exactly how it feels with my H. And of course i couldnt help but like it when he compared porn users to rats in a cage...just my resentments relishing in that though.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

MGirl said:


> I'm confused...are you saying that you don't think that romance novels are as stimulating and addictive to women as visual porn is to men?
> 
> Yes, Porn and romance novels are different, but I personally don't believe the differences are *that* huge. Women read romance novels for the same reason men watch porn--to be stimulated and turned on. To seek variety. To find an outlet. It becomes a problem when it begins interfering with the relationship, though. Just my $.02 though...I'm sure many will disagree.


Yes I am.

There is a huge difference between the two.

#1 - I don't read romance novels. But I know what they consist of and that's where the difference lies.

- Romance novels involve fictional names, characters, locations, events and time.
- They don't involve real people or their lives, families, etc.
- They require the imagination of the reader to take them where 'they' want the story to go.

- Porn involves real-life people. They have names, families, lives.
- They are 'really' naked and peforming sexual acts that either go to DVD and/or are live via video.
- Porn involves no imagination - it's all laid out there for you to see - the story (or lack thereof) involves one thing - sex - real-life sex between real-life people.

Therein lies the difference for me. This is MY 2 cents worth.

Those spouses (wives primarily) who have no issues with porn are not being neglected because of it, are not being replaced by it and have fulfilling sex lives with their spouses. I wouldn't have a problem either if I was in your shoes.

But you're not in mine, so you can truly have NO IDEA what it's like or how it makes me feel.

Walk a mile in my shoes, then we'll talk.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Dr. Rockstar said:


> Anything can be addicting. Just as pornography can create an unrealistic perception of the perfect physical woman, romance novels can create an unrealistic perception of the perfect emotional man. There's a line of novels, "American Romance," that consists almost exclusively of single dads being over their head with parenthood, who need understanding, mothering women to take care of them. There are several different lines produced by Harlequin, but all of them reinforce gender stereotypes to one degree or another (and you can go read their submission guidelines to verify that).
> 
> Plus, they have an unhealthy obsession with cowboys, British royalty, billionaires, sheikhs, and Scotsman. Basically any situation where the men are men.


Sure, anything can be addicting.

But is alcohol or drugs readily avaialble for you to download 24/7 from your computer?

No, it's not.

But with porn, you don't even have to get dressed, it's there at the touch of your fingertips.

It's enticing, forbidden, exciting and that's it's whole purpose and goal.

People are weak - throw it in their face and they have a hard time turning away. Make it less readily available, then it takes more effort to get and thus tarnishes the lure somewhat.

My husband has always been into porn.

But it was magazines and the occasional video tape.

Now, that's too tame - why go out when he can access all his heart desires and fantasizes about without even leaving the house.

It's sort of like taking an alcoholic to a bar and saying - now don't drink.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

MGirl said:


> Brennan-I do agree with you here. Visual porn is not the same as romance novels. Can we say that they both fall under the category of erotic stimulation, though? That's kind of what I meant in the first place.
> 
> The point I was trying to make was that women read romance novels for the *exact* same reasons that men watch visual porn. For excitement, for variety, for an outlet.
> 
> ...


I don't read romance novels, but I do occasionally read a romance magazine.

None of them contain anything that is designed to stimulate me to the point of turning me on. It's not even why I read them. It's due to the love stories that are depicited.

And I'm not addicted to them or have they set-up un-realistic expectations in my marriage/life.

Anything can take you where you want to go if you let it.

The point is have enough 'character' not to go there, especially if it causes someone you love pain.

Pretty simple for me...apparently not for others.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Since there is so much comparison about how porn and romance novels are designed to stimulate and thus are the same.

Let's take a poll.

All the women who read romance novels for the stimulation and the turn on so they can have better sex with their spouses - raise your hand.

All the women who read romance novels and masturbate to them - raise your hand.

All the women who read romance novels that they find more stimulating than the sex life with their spouse and therefore are not interested in sex with their spouse - raise your hand.

All the men who view porn for the stimulation and the turn on, so it can improve the "hot" sex they have with their spouses - raise your hand.

All the men who view porn strictly for the purpose of masturbating to it - raise your hand.

All the men who view porn AND DON'T masturbate to it - raise your hand.

Now let's see how thoroughly "lopsided" the poll numbers are...


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

I do not read romance novels, tried to once when I was young, laughed my head off and cannot for the life me understand the attraction.

I prefer to fantasize about my fiance and the things we talk about and fantasize about doing together.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

I don't read romance novels. I have before, they did nothing for me. Give me a some kind of educational book or a book on recipes, or comedy type of books any day. 

And porn? Well to me thats just, *Yawn* boring! :sleeping:

So guess I'm of no help, hopefully someone else can help with that.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Actually considering porn films often make on par with what holly wood films make why aren't actors getting a lot more money? i know why because society deems them as not important, not real people, just porn stars, ****s etc. they are just so valued *sigh*
> and the difference being that car salesmen do not take their clothes off and become their most vulnerable, and have a huge risk raped/ abused and sexually used for a living. I do not agree with any industry underpaying it';s workers and absolutely am not a fan of capitalism . there is a big difference between selling a car and selling your body! not to mention society does not hold sex workers in high esteem.
> 
> 
> ...


Dont get me wrong, I agree there is likely a big problem out there with a majority with the porn on the internet, but unless I See hard proof of this with the main stream big production scenes I just don't buy it. I do not see it as "Exploiting" as much as I see as a stripper as be exploited. (I know my spelling sucks) There is always a MCd job, go there. There is always a waitress job. Trust me, I think its horrible a person who is born in poverty (and childhood sexual abuse) have a MUCH MUCH higher chance of getting into this postion. I think that the "traficking" market of porn needs to be stopped, and I agree with you on that. But like I said, until I see proof of the big names, that hire girls (Yes hire, not forced) abuse, force drugs on them, and bring them into the changing room and rape them.. I don't buy it. It't not that my eye are "blind" or "shut" its the same reason I am athiest, I need proof. I do not just belive into something with out proof. 

AS far as myself getting more sex from my wife, it does not matter what I do right now (I AM TRYING to better things still mind you) but there is so much a guy can do after his wife has had 2 kids and is in heavy depression. Thankfully she is on some pills, and is seeing a therapists. As wel as us seeing an MC and my self seeing a IC. But the fact is, I probably will not be getting the amount of sex I want (I Would say need, but I have a feeling you and others would fight that to the death.) until she hits her 30s (with my luck my drive will be down by then). 

I guess I should have worded most of my reply differnt, maybe less like an *******. I do agree with a lot of your post, but like I said, without proof the big names treat there women like ****, I do not see it as exploiting. It's a job, same as all of us buying anything in a store now days. Some part of it, (or the whole thing) was made by some kid in Chine, some country in Africa, or South America.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Bigwayneo said:


> Dont get me wrong, I agree there is likely a big problem out there with a majority with the porn on the internet, but unless I See hard proof of this with the main stream big production scenes I just don't buy it. I do not see it as "Exploiting" as much as I see as a stripper as be exploited. (I know my spelling sucks) There is always a MCd job, go there. There is always a waitress job. Trust me, I think its horrible a person who is born in poverty (and childhood sexual abuse) have a MUCH MUCH higher chance of getting into this postion. I think that the "traficking" market of porn needs to be stopped, and I agree with you on that. But like I said, until I see proof of the big names, that hire girls (Yes hire, not forced) abuse, force drugs on them, and bring them into the changing room and rape them.. I don't buy it. It't not that my eye are "blind" or "shut" its the same reason I am athiest, I need proof. I do not just belive into something with out proof.


Max Hardcore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I believe this guys movies were and are very popular. if the girls in those movies aren't being harmed for the most part i'll eat my own shoes.

Ex-Porn Star Tells the Truth (Part 2) | Covenant Eyes
This blog is very interesting.


Price of Pleasure Preview | Media Education Foundation
This doco is worth watching.

Former porn actor and director:


> “They’re doing bad things to people, making them cry, making them feel like pieces of meat, and they’re being brutalized and mistreated. They’re brutalized to the point of a lack of common sense. What we need to practice is ‘common sense-orship.’ These people do not need to be put into a fear factor of X, they don’t need to be penetrated over and over and over again, or the human body and the human mind will break and when you break their spirits and their minds you have nothing left. A lot of the vacancy in this business is readily apparent now, and a lot of the drugs that are in this business now are painkillers so that the girls don’t even know what they’re being put through, they’re just vacant. That, to me, is abhorrent. I’m not censoring, it’s interesting I was accused by one filmmaker of censoring him, but I’m not censoring this business, I’m criticizing this business because I’ve earned the right to criticize it and if you don’t like it, that’s your problem, and theirs as well.”


Anti-Porn Activist's Journal
From Jenna Jameson who has made porn for many big name companies:


> 2.In order to really succeed, you will likely have to get painful breast implants.
> 
> “One of the most frustrating things about the film work was that the producers never wanted to put me on box covers. They all said my breasts were too small. My boobs were certainly big enough for all the men who stared at them every time I left the house. But they weren’t big enough by porn standards. Just like at the Crazy Horse (strip club), the girls with the monster silicone got all the attention.” (Pg. 160)
> “While I was waiting for my first sex scene, my co-star, a gentleman I had never met before named Arnold Biltmore, sat next to me. He had a soft, pasty body; a porous, greasy complexion; and a kindergarten haircut, parted in the middle and combed to either side. Nothing about Arnold Biltmore turned me on. And in ten minutes I was supposed to have sex with him. When our scene started, he tried to kiss me. I turned my head away from the camera, so that no one could see me grimace…. As my head kept bumping into his stomach while I gave him head, all I could think was, ‘What the hell am I doing here? This is disgusting.’ A bead of sweat on Arnold’s forehead…swelled and grew until it turned into a bubble, and then slowly pried itself free of his forehead…. When it smacked me between the eye, it flipped a switch in my head. ‘I’m done,’ I though. ‘I can’t do this anymore.’” (pg. 161-162.)
> ...



Anti-Pornography Activist Blog: Jenna Jameson's 25 Good Reasons Why No One Would Ever Want to Become a Porn Star


> AS far as myself getting more sex from my wife, it does not matter what I do right now (I AM TRYING to better things still mind you) but there is so much a guy can do after his wife has had 2 kids and is in heavy depression. Thankfully she is on some pills, and is seeing a therapists. As wel as us seeing an MC and my self seeing a IC. But the fact is, I probably will not be getting the amount of sex I want (I Would say need, but I have a feeling you and others would fight that to the death.) until she hits her 30s (with my luck my drive will be down by then).


I personally feel sex is a need and very important to healthy relationships. However healthy and porn do not go in the same sentence.


> I guess I should have worded most of my reply differnt, maybe less like an *******. I do agree with a lot of your post, but like I said, without proof the big names treat there women like ****, I do not see it as exploiting. It's a job, same as all of us buying anything in a store now days. Some part of it, (or the whole thing) was made by some kid in Chine, some country in Africa, or South America.


Why is exploiting any one OK, why is abusing and degrading anyone OK? I think it's fairly obvious when you google porn these days that what you mostly see is very degrading to women. What you see is not realistic. What you see is vulnerable people taken advantage of and taught once more that they are not valuable people.

Why don't you prove to me that women are not being abused?

I read somewhere recently that most men would continue to deny it was harmful to any one, much like a junkie who refuses to believe he is controlled by drugs, but this is much more insidious because it's a socially accepted norm, in which men get to defile women and continue to do so in the safety and comfort of their own room.

Why is this OK just because you don't personally know the woman? is this how selfish and detached we have become as a society? If your wife walked in and a real live woman was standing in front of you doing the things women do in porn, even if you were never going to touch the woman? Would you would expect her to be upset and probably leave you? However you are still watching a real woman, really do those things, it's just on a screen. Why is that better? :scratchhead:


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Why do men constantly feel they need to "defend" the porn industry and it's purpose/use?

It's almost like you feel you know them?

And maybe you do - if you spend enough "time" with them.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I dunno why....some do act like its best thing ever that's for sure. 

I guess some men feel its all they have, that they do NOT have to make a real connection with, be intimate and show their emotions with, in other words let their guard down for whatever reason. I wonder if some men truly prefer it because they don't want to be connected with another person, they weren't taught to have a real true meaningful relationship. 

Porn on a screen on in a magazine, are objects, they were taught to bond with an object, not a real person. I just read about this thing recently about people with addictions of all kinds/ Alcoholics see the bottle as an object, that object has no expectations at all. Same with porn, it wont talk back to them, they can do what they want, they don't have to answer to them etc. They DO NOT want to and some do NOT know how to have a relationship with a human being, they like objects, because objects can not do them any harm, like make them hurt or feel bad, Just my guess.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Max Hardcore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> I believe this guys movies were and are very popular. if the girls in those movies aren't being harmed for the most part i'll eat my own shoes.
> 
> Ex-Porn Star Tells the Truth (Part 2) | Covenant Eyes
> ...


"selfish and detached"? a little, but arguable as well. Being my wife had an Affair 4-5 months ago, I hardly doubt it. (And NO porn was not even close to the reason she had one.) It's 100 percent different IMO, no emotions no connections. Do you buy an alarm clock and think about the little Chinese boy who "slaved" away at making it for 100 bucks a month? I doubt it. In fact I would be more inclined for my wife leaving me for getting close to another women via talking to her on World of Warcraft then watching porn. But this is something we could argue till the end of time. Trust me when I say I don't watch porn even close to a daily basis, maybe weekly. Do I swing the paddle daily? some weeks, yeah. Mostly thinking of my wife. In fact, just to indulge you, and myself I will talk to my wife about it tonight. If she has a problem with it, I will stop.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Syrum said:


> Firstly, I would say, it's not that we have never watched porn and I'm very sure my fiance has watched more then me.
> 
> This was all addressed in the porn thread a while back, however i will attempt to address some of the questions.
> 
> ...


By this yardstick, the vast majority of the American workforce is "exploited.". Is that your argument, as well?



> - Most of the women in porn come from poor socioeconomic backgrounds. So it stands to reason if women love making porn so much why don't rich women line up to do it also?


I don't think that anyone has presented the argument that "all women" enjoy making porn. As such, this piece of "evidence" is a straw man.



> - Most of the women in porn have been sexually abused.


While, undoubtedly, SOME certainly have been, I'd be interested in seeing the source for the claim that "most" have.



> - most of the women are very young (and this is of concern because we know now that brain does not fully develope untill people are well into their 20's, this makes risk taking much more likely).


By this same logic, we should prevent women young women from signing any legal contracts, getting behind the wheel of a car, joining the military, etc. Until "well into their 20's" when "their brains fully develop, yes?



> - Most of the women in porn are on drugs or are pressured into taking drugs, because most people in the business will admit it's an awful business to be in and it helps keep the girls coming and back and "performing"


I would again request a source for the assertion that "most" are on drugs.



> - women are often raped, coerced and abused in the making of American mainstream porn.


Do I really need to say it? Ok...I will. Source?



> -women in porn are pressured to have plastic surgery.


The same argument can be made for the mainstream entertainment industry. Do you hold an equally hard-nosed stance against the television, motion picture and music industries?



> -Porn is bad for men, porn is the junk food of sex, it is no substitute for the real thing.


I ALMOST agree with some of this. Of course it's "the junk food of sex." I wouldn't suggest that every meal be junk food, either. But, in moderation, with a balanced diet providing the bulk of one's meals...well...McDonald's fries can be mighty tasty.



> -even small amounts have been shown to change men's brains and they way they view women and lessen men's empathy for women


Yeah...I'm going to ask again.



> -Studies show men who view porn regularly, feel their own sex lives are lacking, they also measure their SO's against the women in porn and feel more dissatisfied in bed and with the looks of their girl if they watch regular porn.


I'm afraid I'll have to ask for a source yet again. My own personal experience does not bear these alleged findings out. I'd say I've been, to use your term, a regular viewer of porn since I was 19. Have I felt my sex life was lackingin the past? Sure. Because, at the time, it was. I'd say that having no partner or a partner interested in sex two to four times a year can be defined as "lacking."



> - the women in porn are real people, they really made that movie and had sex, they are not one dimensional sex robots, by watching porn you are bringing another real person into your sex life, even if you don't want to see it that way.


By this logic, by watching "House," I'm getting a second opinion to what my primary care physician has told me. I'm counting on Marg Helgenberger, David Caruso or Gary Sinise to solve a break-in at my home.

And not only does Sarah Michelle Gellar keep me safe from vampires and demons, I'm mystified by how her vampire soul mate is able to operate as an FBI agent in daylight when he works with that forensic anthropologist.



> - Half of all traficked women end up in the sex industry (stripping, prostitution and porn) if you do any of those things it's highly likely you have encountered modern day slavery.


No denying that human trafficking is a horrible thing. While telling me that I shouldn't peruse an entire genre of entertainment because of it, I'd appreciate it if you'd also supply me with a list of any and all other products and services that you deem safe and acceptable.



> I choose not to partake in activities where women are exploited.


Define "exploited."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Great thread, thanks for all of the informative links and intelligent counterarguments ladies. It amazes me that anyone can defend this industry but addictive quality is such that it is easy to egnore the harm it does. I think that men will finally realize how harmful porn is to them personally however, it will take another generation. By that time, men and woman will have come of age exposed to easily accessible internet porn. What will these men be like what will be their expectations of sex from women? 

Porn already shapes what men expect of woman today. Women are expected to act enthusiastic, like bj, hj, have cum on her face, love the taste of semen, endure the pain and danger of injury of anal sex, masturbate in front of him, dress up, act out his fantasies. These are all geared to male pleasure not much to do with female pleasure and requires women to act something she does not feel, enthusiasm. 

Men who have outsized expectations don't seem to stop to ask if anything they do deserves the enthusiasm they demand or to have a bunch of sex acts performed on them. The rationalization that if a woman loves she would.... is tiresome and silly. Very few man would be as generous to forgo thier pleasure to show thier partner love. Porn gives some men unrealistic view of what woman are required to do to make them happy and probably face a lifetime of craving for the impossible. 

Sad. If this is so today, I can just imagine what it will be like in the future, sex for woman will be a series of performances which offer no satisfaction for them hardly and inducment to maintain a sexual connection over the long term 

In the future, more men may spend their days in their parents basement watching porn instead of going out to meet real woman, going to school and working, more may be addicted to porn spending hrs looking at porn instead of engaging in productive activity, and more relationships may be sexless as a result of lopsided male sexual expectations. Then men will finally realize that porn is a problem. It is like smoking, it takes a criticle mass for the trend to be obvious. With so seductive a genre, it is no surprise that mental gymnastics are employed to justify this evil. 

Porn makes sex about a collection of acts and not about the two people involved. If that were not so then why do men get so angry and resentful when they can't get some act from their partner. If the sex was about the two people involved, why would the fact that one person does not care to do an act be a problem?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Great thread, thanks for all of the informative links and intelligent counterarguments ladies. It amazes me that anyone can defend this industry but addictive quality is such that it is easy to egnore the harm it does. I think that men will finally realize how harmful porn is to them personally however, it will take another generation. By that time, men and woman will have come of age exposed to easily accessible internet porn. What will these men be like what will be their expectations of sex from women?
> 
> Porn already shapes what men expect of woman today. Women are expected to act enthusiastic, like bj, hj, have cum on her face, love the taste of semen, endure the pain and danger of injury of anal sex, masturbate in front of him, dress up, act out his fantasies. These are all geared to male pleasure not much to do with female pleasure and requires women to act something she does not feel, enthusiasm.
> 
> ...


While I agree that the outcomes you describe CAN (and do) occur, I disagree that they INEVITABLY occur.

In our bedroom, nothing happens that we don't both agree to. One or the other of us may be the first to suggest it, but the other is more than free to say, "Uh-Uh. That's a no go." same if we try it and don't like it. If you premise were a foregone conclusion, that wouldn't be the case.

I don't expect my doctor to be Gregory House.

I don't expect the local police to be Horatio Caine.

I don't expect a realtor to be Jules Cobb, or golf pros to be her ex-husband, Bobby.

Not all cheerleading coaches are Sue Sylvester, and our bedroom isn't a stereotypical porn.

Now, Incan understand porn not being someone's cup of proverbial tea. Me? I can't stand "American Idol." So, rather than starting a crusade about the evils of sanitizing and commercializing artistic endeavor, going on a tirade about how the less-talented who audition have their hopes and dreams exploited and crushed in the name of entertaining TV, being offended by the indentured servitude to the show's record label that the finalists sign up for, or so on...I just don't watch it. Obviously, I'm in the minority, as millions watch each week, and vote in a sort of karaoke gladiatorial bout. They've found a form of entertainment that I find appalling, but I'm not going to tell them how "wrong" they are for enjoying it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Wow didn't realize so many people loved porn so much they have to go to the ends of earth to defend it. If you like it, good, take a deep breath, its going to be ok.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

CallaLily said:


> Wow didn't realize so many people loved porn so much they have to go to the ends of earth to defend it. If you like it, good, take a deep breath, its going to be ok.


:smthumbup:

Guess they think whoever yells the loudest and the longest has to be right!

It's interesting that "men" who are viewing it want to justify why, to the ends of the earth.

While "women" who are being hurt by it are being unreasonable, don't understand male biology, could prevent it by being a porn star in the bedroom, etc.

Apparently - for "men" - it's their right in life to be able to have variety, excitement and porn.

For "women" - it's their right in life to just suck it up and expect it - because - hey - we're men!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Syrum, what is your story? You are very UP on all of these statistics, numerous links at your fingertips, have read Jenna Jamesons's book, and 100% biased against porn - seems to be a black & white issue with you all the way. 

Generally, we all have reasons for our stong opionions, usually it relates to our experiences, or someone dear to us being hurt, so it hits home, infects our life, makes us want to go out and be a Social Activist against the hurting force. For someone to be touched and feel THIS strongly, you must have a story to tell. I know a little of Trentons, and Brennen has shared. What is yours?

I am wondering if you feel even "instructional" sex DVD's put together by Sex Therapists that show Nude men & women (many times married in real life) engaging in sex acts as a "guide" to help other married couples -is this also lumped into Porn or is this viewed differently somehow? Like these: Amazon.com: better sex series - Movies & TV

and what about stuff like this - real couples , married, who want to share thier sexual journey, maybe you could call them exhibitionists, but no exploitation is going on. Amazon.com: Xana and Dax: When Opposites Attract (Real People, Real Life, Real Sex series): Tony Comstock: Movies & TV

Amazon.com: Matt and Khym: Better Than Ever (Real People, Real Life, Real Sex series): Tony Comstock: Movies & TV


And what about PlayBoy - I don't think Hugh Hefner abuses and under pays his girls, does he get any credit? do you feel these beautiful women exploited also? Do you lump ALL porn , whether romantically soft on the one end to GangBanging Cum shots Deep throating all in the same basket? 

I respect your trying to shed light on this issue. I want to hear both sides. As for me, I have never been sexually abused by a man, and after a certain age I was very careful who I hung around with-even parting ways with my wilder friends, I was not privledged by any means, even lived in a camper for a time before I married- life was a little tough for me, but never so bad as living in a big city where I was starving & men were trying to lure me into the porn industry. 

I just have a hard time agreeing that these women are all victims with no choices. This is America, we have welfare, public housing, food stamps, wic, unemployment pay if you are down & out, we also have numerous helplines in every phone book, Churches on every street corner. Many get sent to College virtually free for being Poor. Many choices, sometimes I think the POOR have the most choices, those middle class people are the ones who get screwed. The more physically beautiful you are, likely the more choices you have in life, snagging a rich man would even be easier. 

I think the LUST on their parts for easy quick $$, maybe some illusions of fame down the road is also a huge problem- along with the men trying to Exploit them. Do not these young women have SOME responsibility for choosing these paths in their life? I doubt few have guns to their heads, but could take that dishwasher job down the street, keeping her integrity & her clothes on. Maybe that means she can not buy that new cell phone she wanted, or pay off her college loan as quickly. But that is OK. Noone is going to take advantage of her, this is worth gold. It is worth the sacrifice. Somewhere along in a young girls life, she heard this kind of teaching, why does she disregard it so carelessly ? 

Just hard for me personally to see ALL of these women as "victims". I just can't do it. They have SOME responsiblity-unless they are minors & in extreme situations growing up controlled by someone. 

I teach my children at a young age to be accountable, to not blame others for their choices in life, that these things will come back & haunt them. Life is about working hard for our dreams, there is no free ride, keeping your integrity, doing what you want, noone should have any power over you & your body.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I agree that these women have choices, To get into porn or not. However I myself have read things where the women who once they choose to get out of the industry are hated by those still in the industry. They see them then as crying victim. 

However, I don't think alot of these women were going for the "Woe is me, my life was hard and I'm a victim in the porn industry because of my choices." I'm sure it comes across that way, but I think they are just telling how the other side is once they have been in and seen how things truly are. I don't think or know that they are really looking for sympathy for their choices, I think they are just showing the other side of what happened to them, and what can or might be happening to others. It is their choice, but once they get out of the industry I think its more the media that makes them look like victims, just because they chose to get out.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> Guess they think whoever yells the loudest and the longest has to be right!


Nah. It's an exchange of ideas and viewpoints. Kinda hard to do if only one side participates.



> While "women" who are being hurt by it are being unreasonable, don't understand male biology, could prevent it by being a porn star in the bedroom, etc.


Not "unreasonable." At least, not all of them.

"Disingenuous," maybe. Some women (and some men) don't like it, for a variety of reasons. Fair enough. What's wrong with leaving it at that, as opposed to citing a laundry list of why it's inconceivable that others may not share their tastes?

Do I need to go into my "proof" of how, say, football fans are all inbred cro-magnons perpetuating maladjusted priorities in society? Or is it enough to just say that I can't stand football?



> Apparently - for "men" - it's their right in life to be able to have variety, excitement and porn.


Women have that same right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> Guess they think whoever yells the loudest and the longest has to be right!
> 
> ...


Funny, my mother is the one that defends porn, and owned all the porn in the house..... huh crazy. All the years as a kid thinking I Was stealing "dads" stack of playboy, hussler, etc, etc... Just to find out years later it was all moms. Maybe i should have her make an account to come on here and talk about it.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

It is a source of endless amusement to me to hear the rationalizations some men use to defend thier right to porn. I have more respect for men who realize the horrible nature of this but find it difficult to resist. It is not worth engaging in a discourse with the porn apoligencia, even though they know that woman are the ones being damaged in the industry and are being negatively impacted by porn in their relationships it does not appear to disadvantage them. I believe they see it as having too much to lose that is advantageous to them if they faced the truth. 

It's like cheaters, they are in a porn fog and the things they express are exactly the same every single time. Some one smart should start a tread on the common mental gymnastics men use to defend porn, AKA porn fog. 

Porn caries with it the seeds of destruction to the very gender defending it. Men are the ones who are being changed, they have the cravings for things they can not have, they are the ones who cannot appreiciate the sexuality that they are offered because they can't get the dea of what they can't have out of their minds long enough to enjoy the one they are with, they are the ones begging for the impossible, suffering cravings and desperation. In the future smart men will stop watching porn and make sure their sons do the same so that they will have a life filled with sex that is about the one they are with not a sad life filled with dreams of what he can do with his wife's holes if she would let him. 

It will happen, the tipping point is not here yet. Some men still hold out the hope of convincing woman that they should enjoy being a porn star for them. When men exhaust themselves trying methods to coerce, cajole, trick, gilt, beg, their partner and it still does not work then, they may decide that it is the porn that is the problem and not woman who are "prudes", a new word for woman who are determined to maintain control of their bodies and to determine what parts they chose to share.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Just to make sure I understand, Catherine....

Is it your contention that viewing porn always, inevitably leads to the conclusions you have presented in this thread?

Or do you allow for the possibility that even some people - male and female alike - are able to view it simply as a form of entertainment that has no negative impact on their interpersonal/intimate/sexual relationships?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Grayson said:


> Nah. It's an exchange of ideas and viewpoints. Kinda hard to do if only one side participates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And I don't have a problem with an exchange of ideas and different opinions, not in the least.

Where I have the disconnect is those that tell me that "it's no big deal," "porn is harmless, etc."

Well good for them - it is a big deal and harmless in my marriage.

So in other words, don't invalidate the issues I have with it and what it is causing in my home and I won't invalidate what it does for you and how it helps in your home.

It's all about respecting that I have the right to say "it is an issue to me" as much as you have the right to say "it isn't for you."

Stop trying to get me to "see" that it's all in my head, I must be the problem, it's harmless, it's normal, etc.

And I'll stop trying to get you to see that it makes me feel like a piece of crap.

That's all...pretty simple.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> It is a source of endless amusement to me to hear the rationalizations some men use to defend thier right to porn. I have more respect for men who realize the horrible nature of this but find it difficult to resist. It is not worth engaging in a discourse with the porn apoligencia, even though they know that woman are the ones being damaged in the industry and are being negatively impacted by porn in their relationships it does not appear to disadvantage them. I believe they see it as having too much to lose that is advantageous to them if they faced the truth.
> 
> It's like cheaters, they are in a porn fog and the things they express are exactly the same every single time. Some one smart should start a tread on the common mental gymnastics men use to defend porn, AKA porn fog.
> 
> ...


I think you over generalize and read way to much "Time Machine". I would never ask my wife to do anything she really does not want, (same goes with most of my friends for that matter) Also being I watch mostly amateur stuff it would not matter. "Smart men" stop watching porn? Are you saying men who watch porn are idiots or something?:rofl:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Grayson said:


> Just to make sure I understand, Catherine....
> 
> Is it your contention that viewing porn always, inevitably leads to the conclusions you have presented in this thread?
> 
> ...


If porn doesn't change you in the way you view women, then let me ask you why is being bald/very little down there now the only acceptable grooming? It wasn't because a bunch of women woke up one day and thought "Hmmmm, I'm bored" and grabbed sheers. It was/is because that is what men have expected from their partner BECAUSE of porn. Same goes for anal although not as mainstream....yet.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Bigwayneo said:


> Funny, my mother is the one that defends porn, and owned all the porn in the house..... huh crazy. All the years as a kid thinking I Was stealing "dads" stack of playboy, hussler, etc, etc... Just to find out years later it was all moms. Maybe i should have her make an account to come on here and talk about it.


And I'm sure that Dad was giving her what she needed in the bedroom. So porn wasn't a problem.

When it ain't happening - then it's a problem.

If you're satisfied - great, then I'm sure your wife has no issues.

But I'm not and I do - and unfortunately, I'm not alone.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

> This is America, we have welfare, public housing, food stamps, wic, unemployment pay if you are down & out, we also have numerous helplines in every phone book, Churches on every street corner. Many get sent to College virtually free for being Poor. Many choices, sometimes I think the POOR have the most choices, those middle class people are the ones who get screwed. The more physically beautiful you are, likely the more choices you have in life, snagging a rich man would even be easier.


SA, I know this was directed at Syrum but I wanted to add something here. The ability to empathize does not have to come from personal experience. I think this is the BIGGEST mistake of humanity. We should all empathize more, give more, share more and expect less. The problem with Americans and many other nations is a feeling of entitlement, one that is destroying the world without regard.

Secondly, I do have firsthand experience working with children and families that face the label of being "poor" and I find your above quoted paragraph so devastatingly depressing, and even sadder still, common place feeling for many.

Come with me for one day and I will show you that your quote couldn't be farther from the truth. What good are having many choices when none are good and you lack the financial, educational and/or emotional support to make or find out where good choices are? When your dignity is stripped away from you and replaced with blame by others?

I have read many, many books on the cycles of poverty/foster care/inner cities. Can post links and share personal experience.

The bottom line is I've never volunteered at a Salvation Army to give out coats or food and not felt utterly embarrassed. How dare I go home to the very wonderful life I have and close the door on the people in the auditorium? How dare I concern myself with my stupid worries? How dare I feel better about myself because I'm helping others when these same people will be here next week looking for food and clothing and some for a moment away from the street? Are they not exactly the same as me and deserving of the same things? Am I really supposed to believe that because they were born into a family that had no money, didn't value education or nurturing and most likely faced some type of intense hardship...that I deserve what I have? That I somehow earned it or was just luckier than they were?

No way! That is losing your humanity! 

I find it insulting to read a sentence that believes the poor have more choices than the middle class...insulting, embarrassing and hurtful to the core of our humanity.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Bigwayneo said:


> I think you over generalize and read way to much "Time Machine". I would never ask my wife to do anything she really does not want, (same goes with most of my friends for that matter) Also being I watch mostly amateur stuff it would not matter. "Smart men" stop watching porn? Are you saying men who watch porn are idiots or something?:rofl:


If you truly think that men watching porn does not put ideas into their heads that they might want their spouses or SO to try out, then you are the one missing the boat.

Instead of asking "your" friends, why don't you try speaking to women? You might be surprised what you get.

And yes, men who watch porn and yank off to it instead of taking care of their spouses are idiots and I'm not rolling on the floor laughing my a** off.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Bigwayneo said:


> Funny, my mother is the one that defends porn, and owned all the porn in the house..... huh crazy. All the years as a kid thinking I Was stealing "dads" stack of playboy, hussler, etc, etc... Just to find out years later it was all moms. Maybe i should have her make an account to come on here and talk about it.


Did your mother turn out to be a lesbian? What would she want with Playboy and Hustler?


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> If porn doesn't change you in the way you view women, then let me ask you why is being bald/very little down there now the only acceptable grooming? It wasn't because a bunch of women woke up one day and thought "Hmmmm, I'm bored" and grabbed sheers. It was/is because that is what men have expected from their partner BECAUSE of porn. Same goes for anal although not as mainstream....yet.


This is SO TRUE.

"They" are truly clueless, aren't they?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> If you truly think that men watching porn does not put ideas into their heads that they might want their spouses or SO to try out, then you are the one missing the boat.
> 
> Instead of asking "your" friends, why don't you try speaking to women? You might be surprised what you get.
> 
> And yes, men who watch porn and yank off to it instead of taking care of their spouses are idiots and I'm not rolling on the floor laughing my a** off.


In general, I like porn. I don't watch as much as I used to.

Maybe it put some ideas in my head, but I've never expected my wife to look like or act like a porn star. Never expected or asked for anal or deep throat. Never expected her to wear high heels, make-up and pearls to bed.

To be totally honest - I think most of the stats and negative things about the industry sound reasonable and make sense. But if the illuision is done reasonably well - and there's no appearance of pain or suffering and abuse - then most men won't give it a moments thought.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> And I don't have a problem with an exchange of ideas and different opinions, not in the least.
> 
> Where I have the disconnect is those that tell me that "it's no big deal," "porn is harmless, etc."
> 
> ...


Agreed that it's pretty simple.

I hope I've not given the impression that your (or anyone's) dislike of porn is "all in your head." Well...no more than our likes or dislikes of ANYTHING aren't all in our heads.

I've tried to make it clear that I agree that porn - like anything - can be problematic to an individual and/or a relationship. Or, rather, not necessarily porn itself but its role and what it represents.

By way of example, far, FAR longer than I've enjoyed porn, I've been a fan of comics. That's right. Comic books. Have a sizable collection. When my wife and I got engaged, her mother asked her, "When you get married, you're going to make him stop buying those, right?" as if their mere presence was a problem. A few years down the line, my wife was out of work for an extended time. In that time, I skipped my regular trips to the comic store. I could have continued, but that would have created problems.

The point of the story: without communication and mutual respect, anything, no matter how apparently trivial, can be problematic.

My issue is with the view that porn, in and of itself, is and ever shall be always 100% destructive in relationships...that 100% of men who enjoy porn are destined to hold their partners to untrainable expectations and to force their partners to participate in acts that they would not otherwise...that viewing porn always results in a lessened desire for one's partner and invariably causes one to seek out more and more "extreme" content in porn that will be forced into the bedroom.

I wouldn't dream of denying that these things can an sometimes do happen. Saying that they never do is just as wrong-headed as saying that they always do.

By no means do I intend to belittle the impact it may have had in genuinely coming between a couple. All I ask in return is that those who have issues with it recognize that, just because my views and experiences don't reflect their own (or everyone's), neither do their views and experiences with porn reflect mine (or everyone's). In other words, I try not to tell anyone they're "wrong" for not enjoying it, so I'd ask that they extend the same courtesy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Grayson said:


> Agreed that it's pretty simple.
> 
> I hope I've not given the impression that your (or anyone's) dislike of porn is "all in your head." Well...no more than our likes or dislikes of ANYTHING aren't all in our heads.
> 
> ...


I appreciate that.

And I hope I haven't offended anyone either.

But this is really a sore subject for me right now.

Porn has caused a lot of pain for me in the past year.

Unnecessary pain.

Pain I did not create, cause or deserve.

I am a loving, supportive wife. I am a tigress in the bedroom. I look good and deserve more.

Hell, my own counselor today said I'm in the Hallmark Hall of Fame of Wives for what I've done for and in support of my husband with what I've been through with him. 

And if my husband doesn't figure it out soon, then he'll be figuring it out alone.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I appreciate that.
> 
> And I hope I haven't offended anyone either.
> 
> ...


Mind if I ask - do you think everything in your relationship would be OK if there was no porn - if it didn't exist?

There were definitely problems in my marriage, but the technology made it much easier for my wife to do the wrong things. I don't blame Facebook or AT&T (iPhone/texting) for our problems - but I do think they can help people really mess things up much quicker.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> If porn doesn't change you in the way you view women, then let me ask you why is being bald/very little down there now the only acceptable grooming? It wasn't because a bunch of women woke up one day and thought "Hmmmm, I'm bored" and grabbed sheers. It was/is because that is what men have expected from their partner BECAUSE of porn. Same goes for anal although not as mainstream....yet.


For me, there isn't a single "acceptable grooming." Just as some hairstyles flatter some people better than others (my wife and I agree, for example, that all three of the Cheerios on Glee weren't well-served by the severe cheerleader ponytails...their non-cheerleader hairstyles are more flattering; likewise, close-cropped hair was a better "look" for Mythbusters' Adam Savage than the unruly mop he currently sports) and some men look better with facial hair than others, I'd say that some women look better "bald" and others look better with differing amounts of hair "down there."

So, I guess I don't see that it really has changed how I view women.

On this topic, though, coincidentally enough, there was an article about the preferred "grooming" styles by decade in the current issue of Playboy. (Yes, I appreciate the irony of the source.) In it, they did indeed conclude that, while past grooming styles were also influenced by such things as the cut of swimwear, current grooming styles are more directly atteibutable to porn. Specifically, with amateur porn as prolific as professional, and the variety of grooming styles that entails...that there's currently a wider variety of styles being adopted by women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> If you truly think that men watching porn does not put ideas into their heads that they might want their spouses or SO to try out, then you are the one missing the boat.
> 
> Instead of asking "your" friends, why don't you try speaking to women? You might be surprised what you get.
> 
> And yes, men who watch porn and yank off to it instead of taking care of their spouses are idiots and I'm not rolling on the floor laughing my a** off.


I'm sure some do get ideas from watching porn. Hell...my wife and I thought that the upside-down kiss from the first Spider-Man movie was hot, so we gave it a try. I wouldn't say that super-hero movies are inherently damaging to relationships, though. Ideas can be sparked from any number of places. Since porn is one of the few entertainment genres dealing so overtly with sexuality, it stands to reason that something seen in porn would be suggested in the bedroom more than, say, something seen on tv. If one's partner isn't willing, though, that should be that. Both partners should be comfortable in bringing up something they'd like to try, just as both partners should be free to say no to anything they're not on board with. If the suggesting partner feels he or she is entitled to it just because they want to try it, I can't say that I see the cause of that sense of entitlement being porn. Rather, there's already a sense of entitlement at play with that person.

As for my own personal experience, I find that what I enjoy in the bedroom tends to direct what I enjoy/look for in porn, rather than the reverse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Brennan said:


> If porn doesn't change you in the way you view women, then let me ask you why is being bald/very little down there now the only acceptable grooming? It wasn't because a bunch of women woke up one day and thought "Hmmmm, I'm bored" and grabbed sheers. It was/is because that is what men have expected from their partner BECAUSE of porn. Same goes for anal although not as mainstream....yet.


The common lament from a man who is getting plenty of sex

1. she won't do different positions; what positions where did that come from. 

2. missionary is boring; it may be in porn but to some women, it is the most secure and pleasant of positions

3. how about reverse cowgirl sweetie; WTF is that. 

4. I want to cum on your face darling; you want to do what?? and if I say no then what

5. why wont you do a strip tease; probably didn't read the small print on the marriage certificate " for woman only - acts of wonton display of ones goods expected on a regular basis" 

6. let's have breast sex; why, I was kinda enjoying vag something about it feels good, when are you going to run out of ideas about where you want to put your junk

Porn is a harmless male diversion which has nothing to do with a man's love for his wife or his sexual desire for his wife. The porn "problem" is created by a group of insecure feminist who are trying to control men and their rights, by prudes, hypocrites (they like romance novels don't they) and liars making up stories about the abusive nature of porn. 

I cant predict the future no more than anyone else can. I am a woman and I know what it feels like from this end. I occasionally have a fleeting feeling that I am being used when I am doing something I don't particularly like but my husband does. 

I am glad to make him happy but if I think to much about it, my feeling is that if it were not for porn, I would have a much happier sex life because he would not want this. I would not have to force myself to do things I really don't want to do. How long will I be able to keep it going before I just say f**k this, I don't know. But if I think it other woman do too. 

You can't talk your way out of the porn problem you can't make it go away by trying to convince women there is no problem. 

I don't know if many men in general can think clearly on this issue because they seem to have a very difficult time with empathy when it comes to sexual pleasure. I base that on all of what I read in defense of porn - it is laughably self-serving. Ask the same men who support porn, what they would say to their 18 yo daughter if she wanted to make a quick and easy $$$ making one or two videos over summer vacation. Maybe that will clear their heads.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Did your mother turn out to be a lesbian? What would she want with Playboy and Hustler?


I don't think one has to be homosexual to appreciate an attractive body of the same sex.

For better or for worse, it's more acceptable in our society for women to openly do so. If my wife says she enjoys sharing my Playboy subscription with me, few people would bat an eye. If, on the other hand, I were to comment on, say, Michael Phelps having a great body, I'd get a look that said, "Hmmmmmm."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Trenton said:


> I find it insulting to read a sentence that believes the poor have more choices than the middle class...insulting, embarrassing and hurtful to the core of our humanity.


So the term "MORE" is what is insulting. When I say more, I am usually thinking of health care. The poorest of the poor get it completly free (I'm not saying they shouldn't) , but as soon as you get a job, even if you can barely live on the income, you loose the health care. This shouldn't be, those people are poor too (not Middle class though). 

I should not have used the term "Middle class", I am not even sure what that is, probably making over $70,000 a year for a family of 4 maybe? I have experiences with the very poor myself. I've have met prostitutes, even lived with a man, when visiting my Mother in my youth who was a murderer -released from Prison. I have seen the devestation, walked among it in a very big city, sat & listened to her many stories, but I have also observed their "choices" along the way. Many of them choose wild living over other paths, but the choices were there. 

We are probably considered low income with a family as large as we are, husband makes a little less than $50,000. We dont get any help because we manage our money wisely & carefully. I came from a home where I didnt always get lunch money, wasn't wanted there, Step Mom wanted my dad to herself, and told when I left I was not to come back. I guess I am just a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps type of person". I had to be or what would have become of me. I learned from all of my mothers BAD choices in life how not to live. She had more priviledge than me, also more love at home. 

You ask Are they not exactly the same as me and deserving of the same things? My answer to that depends - if they are going to go out and waste it on drugs, booze & cigarettes. I'd say NO. I would not give a homeless man or woman cash. 

Of coarse there are plenty of wonderful people who are born in poverty, and many good people in this world like yourself who are looking out for them. I may not be the most religious person these days, but many who find themselves in really hard times find lasting friendships and acceptance within these buildings, they are treated the same, a place of belonging. 

I feel this country is blessed because we do have many caring wonderful people - so what is the answer? Seriously, what can solve this? Your feeling ashamed in the food line, is it enough to bring some of these people home & crash at your house? 

What is the answer Trenton. You say Love them, have compassion, give them an education (I think they all get this ) and food, shelter (none is starving in America, this is the nation of obesity). The Foster care system is a disgrace, the parents, in my opionion, have far TOO MANY RIGHTS, too many chances to get their lives together, while their innocent children suffer years upon years. So many could be saved from this pain , adopted at an earlier age into a loving home, but instead grow up terribly dysfunctional, tossed to and fro. 

What is the answer? Can we make/inforce these people to live right? We can only offer them what we are already offering them. What more can we give them? I am not one who will make endless excuses for people who continue to make bad choices once they are of age. A lot of it is untreated mental illness too, another whole problem in society.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Grayson said:


> I'm sure some do get ideas from watching porn. If one's partner isn't willing, though, that should be that. Both partners should be comfortable in bringing up something they'd like to try, just as both partners should be free to say no to anything they're not on board with. If the suggesting partner feels he or she is entitled to it just because they want to try it, I can't say that I see the cause of that sense of entitlement being porn. Rather, there's already a sense of entitlement at play with that person.
> 
> As for my own personal experience, I find that what I enjoy in the bedroom tends to direct what I enjoy/look for in porn, rather than the reverse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can say it - porn effects the expectation of the type of sex men imagine for themselves. How many men go into marriage with no feelings of entitlement? Where do they get the ideas of what they want? Do you really think there is a man on the planet who thinks he should not enjoy what he sees in porn with a woman to whom he makes a lifetime commitment? 

I have read it many times on this forum - many men think that they deny themselves their right to a variety of hot woman that they have coming to them to be with one woman. In exchange, they expect to be compensated by getting all the sex acts that they would have gotten if they were single.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Syrum, what is your story? You are very UP on all of these statistics, numerous links at your fingertips, have read Jenna Jamesons's book, and 100% biased against porn - seems to be a black & white issue with you all the way.
> 
> Generally, we all have reasons for our stong opionions, usually it relates to our experiences, or someone dear to us being hurt, so it hits home, infects our life, makes us want to go out and be a Social Activist against the hurting force. For someone to be touched and feel THIS strongly, you must have a story to tell. I know a little of Trentons, and Brennen has shared. What is yours?


My story is I am a woman.

The fact that all people are not touched or moved by womens suffering floors me and saddens me. Why is that remarkable?

I like to think a little social activist all on my own. this is not the only issue I get passionate about, and it astounds me that more people do not get upset about this issue. It seems very one sided and the suffering of women seems invisible. It's OK they are just women and they "chose" it. News flash women don't choose being born with a vagina and having less choices then men.

My reasons are human compassion and the fact that I see and hear the way some men talk about women, and it disgusts me. It sickens me. I can't stand that the pornification of women has seeped into popular culture, it's in your face every day, so much so that people don't even recognize it as porn. Women are treated as merely F&^*able objects all the time and judged purely on their Fu&^ability, and we are all Ok with that. 




> I am wondering if you feel even "instructional" sex DVD's put together by Sex Therapists that show Nude men & women (many times married in real life) engaging in sex acts as a "guide" to help other married couples -is this also lumped into Porn or is this viewed differently somehow? Like these: Amazon.com: better sex series - Movies & TV
> 
> and what about stuff like this - real couples , married, who want to share thier sexual journey, maybe you could call them exhibitionists, but no exploitation is going on. Amazon.com: Xana and Dax: When Opposites Attract (Real People, Real Life, Real Sex series): Tony Comstock: Movies & TV
> 
> Amazon.com: Matt and Khym: Better Than Ever (Real People, Real Life, Real Sex series): Tony Comstock: Movies & TV


I won't watch them, but there wouldn't be so many problems if people didn't watch porn, and if they were educated through word and text. The rest should be up to their imaginations. How can people truelly get to know each other what they really like when they have visions and scripts from others running through their heads.
If a guy can't connect and get creative without porn then :sleeping:.




> And what about PlayBoy - I don't think Hugh Hefner abuses and under pays his girls, does he get any credit? do you feel these beautiful women exploited also? Do you lump ALL porn , whether romantically soft on the one end to GangBanging Cum shots Deep throating all in the same basket?


Yes all porn is bad. All porn commodifies women. Playboy is notorious for taking women and wanting them to look like they came out of a cookie cutter. In fact it's from play boy that men first often learn how genitals look. Except the genitals displayed in playboy have been for the most part (No not all) surgically or digitally altered, and the women often have had breast implants. 
It still presents women as one dimensional. That is harmful stuff.



> I respect your trying to shed light on this issue. I want to hear both sides. As for me, I have never been sexually abused by a man, and after a certain age I was very careful who I hung around with-even parting ways with my wilder friends, I was not privledged by any means, even lived in a camper for a time before I married- life was a little tough for me, but never so bad as living in a big city where I was starving & men were trying to lure me into the porn industry.


As I have said my life when I was younger was very hard. But I was privileged in many ways. I had had an education(though not finished), I was white, I got to live with my boyfriends family, and his mother cared about my well being, I had full health care (Yay Australia) I had friends and family who did help with certain things, I had role models in my life who did positive things. All of this helped me and privilged me. However had I been without one or many of those things who knows what may have happened to myself or my daughter and despite what happened then due to much luck and being priviliged enough to have had opportunities due to free education and support that I am now still priviliged, I'm not rich, I work part time with children, but I know I am far better off then many and my circumstances make certain things possible for myself and my kids.


> I just have a hard time agreeing that these women are all victims with no choices. This is America, we have welfare, public housing, food stamps, wic, unemployment pay if you are down & out, we also have numerous helplines in every phone book, Churches on every street corner. Many get sent to College virtually free for being Poor. Many choices, sometimes I think the POOR have the most choices, those middle class people are the ones who get screwed. The more physically beautiful you are, likely the more choices you have in life, snagging a rich man would even be easier.
> 
> I think the LUST on their parts for easy quick $$, maybe some illusions of fame down the road is also a huge problem- along with the men trying to Exploit them. Do not these young women have SOME responsibility for choosing these paths in their life? I doubt few have guns to their heads, but could take that dishwasher job down the street, keeping her integrity & her clothes on. Maybe that means she can not buy that new cell phone she wanted, or pay off her college loan as quickly. But that is OK. Noone is going to take advantage of her, this is worth gold. It is worth the sacrifice. Somewhere along in a young girls life, she heard this kind of teaching, why does she disregard it so carelessly ?
> 
> ...


I teach my children that they are valuable. 

I taught my 18 year old daughter to have self respect and that she is a person not a sexual object. In fact you should have heard her lecture me when I dared to glance at some lingerie. She knows to well her own worth and value. But I am her mother, i know lots of mothers who feed their CHILDREN a steady diet of MTV and reality TV like playboy mansion. This is what the kids are watching. What message is that sending? 

I have taught her to be accountable for her actions, but I have taught her to have empathy and to understand that the starting line is not the same for everybody and to even have a chance at catching up, the things some people feel they have to do and in all likely are their best options is very sad.

Women have limited options and are many times more likely to live in poverty then a man. Women are also taught that being in porn is fun (they have no idea that it's difficult and painful) they also grew up thinking that this represents "sex" and there is nothing wrong with it. They just don't realize that being called a ***** and a **** is not really a compliment.

I also happen to think that mature responsible, caring people have the responsibility to stop young people from making dire mistakes, not lure them and abuse them and exploit them. Young people are trusting and they are going to risk take. Society used to be the village and collectively care for young people, teach them, set good examples and steer them in the right direction. 
We have no villages any more, we now have corporations, and doesn't it make the world a better place?

Having a mother who cares and loves them your children are all ready far better off then many.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

SA,
You touched on education and said "they all get this". Some get a better one than others and that's in public schools, never mind private. I live in a "Robin Hood" district where part of our property taxes go to support a district in Brownsville. Without that, the other district would collapse. My sons went to public schools and the high school my eldest goes to is nationally ranked. Top 10 actually. He has the latest text books, the latest technology, has limitless opportunities regarding extra activities (including robotics, animation, symphony, 7 different language options) and it is because of home values in certain areas within our district whose property taxes make it possible. The district in Brownsville up until 4 years ago was learning history out of textbooks that were 20 years old. Clearly their is a vast differential between what they are learning vs. what my sons are learning. Also the teachers in our district are some of the highest educated. They are recruited from all over the country. Most have a Master's degree and all the Principles have a PhD. The district can afford to pay them very well because of property taxes. In the Brownsville district, they struggle to be able to pay their teachers because the low house values do not support it. Same amount of students as we have here but 1/4 the budget. They accept anybody who has a teaching certificate as "qualified" and the students are worse off for it. Add in crippling poverty and the drop out rate is sky high. At my son's high school, Ivy league schools come and recruit. Going to college is expected, it isn't some big achievement. In the Brownsville district, graduating from high school is seen as something momentous. Is it a choice? Sure. Where they ever really given a chance? No. 
What is the solution? Without getting too political here, there are lots of ways this country could better spend our money. More warheads isn't one of them.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> The common lament from a man who is getting plenty of sex
> 
> 1. she won't do different positions; what positions where did that come from.


Any number of places. In addition to porn, there's the Kama Sutra, self-help sex books (such as "The Joy of Sex"), etc. Most sexual positions existed before porn (unless we adopt the theory that even the earliest cave paintings contain what would have amounted to "porn" of the time).



> 2. missionary is boring; it may be in porn but to some women, it is the most secure and pleasant of positions


Sure, some people find it "boring." That's something I'd lay at the doorstep of personal preference than on porn. Meanwhile some prefer it to other positions. And both circumstances apply to both genders. Personally, I'd prefer missionary more frequently than we do it. Wife prefers other positions. Now, carefully treading out onto potentially thin ice...is it any more wrong to suggest trying different positions than it is to not entertain the notion at all? If so, why? Simply because porn exists and generally has multiple positions per scene?

(As an aside, one of the most arousing porn scenes I ever saw was a single-position, missionary scene. The couple clearly wanted to be together and their chemistry and passion came through clearly.)



> 3. how about reverse cowgirl sweetie; WTF is that.


To be honest, I never had a clear conception of what was "cowgirl" and what was "reverse cowgirl" until my wife bought a book by a female sex therapist called "Ride 'im, Cowgirl.". Again, porn is not the only source for sexual positions other than missionary, although it may be at least partially responsible for popularizing their commonly used slang terms.



> 4. I want to cum on your face darling; you want to do what?? and if I say no then what


Then I say, "OK."

As another aside, although I do sometimes appreciate an external finish, "facials" have never done anything for me.



> 5. why wont you do a strip tease; probably didn't read the small print on the marriage certificate " for woman only - acts of wonton display of ones goods expected on a regular basis"


Personally, I don't want to horrify ANYONE with my chronic lack of rhythm. I've never asked anyone to perform a striptease for me. On the other hand, my wife has considered taking a course or getting a DVD on striptease. Meanwhile, while not a striptease, I'm probably more prone to "wanton displays of one's goods." I'm getting to the point where I have to ask, though...are younexaggeratig for effect, or singly truly feel that any and all desire for sexy, racy interaction is an undesirable direct result of porn?



> 6. let's have breast sex; why, I was kinda enjoying vag something about it feels good, when are you going to run out of ideas about where you want to put your junk


I'm just not seeing the connection to the "destructive" nature of porn here. Humans, as sexual creatures, try all sorts of things for sexual peasure. This is one of them. Some enjoy it. Some don't. In my experience, I've not seen it featured frequently in porn.



> Porn is a harmless male diversion which has nothing to do with a man's love for his wife or his sexual desire for his wife.


In many cases, this is true. In some cases, it's not. You can use this same sentence, and substitute many other words for "porn:" football, gambling, alcohol, etc. And, in those cases, too, problems may arise, and they may not. When they do, porn, football, etc is a symptom...not the cause.



> The porn "problem" is created by a group of insecure feminist who are trying to control men and their rights, by prudes, hypocrites (they like romance novels don't they) and liars making up stories about the abusive nature of porn.


While I would certainly say that SOME who disapprove of porn do - shall we say - fudge the facts, I'd say that the "porn problem" is rather a relationship problem that involves porn, as a symptom of a much larger, more difficult to define problem, or as a bone of contention that one partner disapproves of and the other doesn't understand the reason for and/or depth of the disapproval. I would contend that "football widows" experience much the same issue. However, football is more generally accepted into the consciousness of mainstream society. Thus, with the stigma attached, it becomes easy to brand porn itself as the source of the problem, as opposed to the guy who ignores his wife in favor of the big game or porn as being the source.



> I cant predict the future no more than anyone else can. I am a woman and I know what it feels like from this end. I occasionally have a fleeting feeling that I am being used when I am doing something I don't particularly like but my husband does.


Then by all means, tell him. When we first got together, I told my wife that if I'm in the mood and she's not, I don't want her to do it just to pacify me. If we aren't both enjoying it, there's no point. If I just want to get off, I've got a hand that's served me well over the years. By the same token, neither of us is beholden to do something we don't want to do.



> I am glad to make him happy but if I think to much about it, my feeling is that if it were not for porn, I would have a much happier sex life because he would not want this. I would not have to force myself to do things I really don't want to do. How long will I be able to keep it going before I just say f**k this, I don't know. But if I think it other woman do too.


From reading this, quite frankly, I'd say the problem isn't porn. It isn't even that he might be "getting ideas" from porn. It's that the dynamic is uneven, and one that no longer lends itsel (if it ever did) to both of you feeling secure enough to voice not only wants and desires, but what you're uncomfortable with. If he's not willing to take your thoughts, feelings, likes and dislikes into account, there's far more at play than porn.



> You can't talk your way out of the porn problem you can't make it go away by trying to convince women there is no problem.


As I've indicated, while some relationships may have A "porn problem," I disagree that there is a universal, inherent "porn problem.". Porn in and of itself does not create problems within a relationship. Porn, on it's own, has no more control over anyone than they allow it to have. Based on what I've read of your posts, I wouldn't dream of denying that porn plays a part in problems within your relationship. I'm sorry for that. If I had any kind of control over that, I'd gladly change it for you. And, it's undoubtedly colored your perceptions on the issue. However, there are plenty of us out here - male and female - who both enjoy it and are able to maintain a realistic view of it. It's no more inherently "bad" than any other form of entertainment. The problems begin when mixed with personalities that don't allow for that healthy, realistic comprehension of it and oneself.

I don't know if many men in general can think clearly on this issue because they seem to have a very difficult time with empathy when it comes to sexual pleasure. I base that on all of what I read in defense of porn - it is laughably self-serving. Ask the same men who support porn, what they would say to their 18 yo daughter if she wanted to make a quick and easy $$$ making one or two videos over summer vacation. Maybe that will clear their heads.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Syrum said:


> Yes all porn is bad. All porn commodifies women. Playboy is notorious for taking women and wanting them to look like they came out of a cookie cutter. In fact it's from play boy that men first often learn how genitals look. Except the genitals displayed in playboy have been for the most part (No not all) surgically or digitally altered, and the women often have had breast implants.
> It still presents women as one dimensional. That is harmful stuff..


All I can tell you is, I have a wonderful husband (he is a better human being than I am by far) , been looking and enjoying playboy since he was 11, learned pretty much all he knew about sex from these magazines. Does NOT at all like Breast implants, still likes hair on women, he waited till marraige to have sex with me (this was 8 yrs of waiting mind you) , and has always been 100% faithful, even feels masterbating is a form of cheating in marraige, and didn't do it, always waiting for me. 

Also we've talked about if watching porn, if he "thinks" on some of these women, as it is something to discuss. It is important and bad IF a spouse is going there, I agree. He knows he can tell me ANYTHING, but swears he has never done this, and it is true, if we have it on, he prefers it off, a distraction. He has zero reason to lie to me as I have admitted I have randomly thought of other men in my head, maybe a hot porn star, and believe this little fantasy is totally normal. But for him, I guess it is not happening. (though again I think this is not the norm) 

Porn has NOT influenced his mind as you speak here in your post. I am VERY sure my husband is not a total freak of nature. 

I am accually thankful he had the knowledge he did so he knew what to do with me! I wish he would have had more knowledge in fact cause our sex life was very dull for too many years. Those instructional videos was helpful to us.

And my husband can not even bare to watch a RAPE scene on tv, he wants to go out & kill someone when he sees women hurt. 

Not all men who enjoy at little porn LOOK upon women the way you are painting. Lord, he NEVER expected me to act like a porn star, he never even asked me for a BJ -in 19 yrs ! Watching some porn, for us, has been insightful, enjoyable and helpful. If that makes us uncreative, and my husband a bad lover, well I guess I will be insulted. 

It is just MY story. My opionion. So the fact is -you are against ALL, not just women who are being abused, lured in by evil men, but all women who willingly -wantingly to take part in -even a Sex therapist' video, ALL BAD, all damaging. You view SOFT as damaging & as objectifying as Hard core .

Very Interesting.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> I can say it - porn effects the expectation of the type of sex men imagine for themselves. How many men go into marriage with no feelings of entitlement? Where do they get the ideas of what they want? Do you really think there is a man on the planet who thinks he should not enjoy what he sees in porn with a woman to whom he makes a lifetime commitment?


Honestly, I'm not quite sure what you mean here.

Yes , I do believe there is at least one man on this planet who doesn't let what he sees in porn drive his sex life: me.

As I said upthread, what I enjoy in my sec life tends to drive what I find enjoyable in porn. Truthfully, there are some things that, before having tried them and enjoyed them in the bedroom, I'd avoid and/or skip past in porn. Didn't float my boat. After trying it for myself, though, I came to appreciate it in porn.



> I have read it many times on this forum - many men think that they deny themselves their right to a variety of hot woman that they have coming to them to be with one woman. In exchange, they expect to be compensated by getting all the sex acts that they would have gotten if they were single.


Of course you've seen it on this forum. So have I. That's not a result of booth itself...that's a result of their own, existing, inflated sense of entitlement. I don't, nor did I ever, have a "right" to sex with a variety of women. Women are beautiful. There's nothing wrong with recognizing that. It's when doing so (or more) goes beyond the boundaries set within a relationship that it becomes a problem. And, going beyond boundaries is not caused by porn. It's caused by someone being selfish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

SA, let me give you a round of applause for that last post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

SA,
Your husband and mine sound alot alike. They really do. 
I don't view all porn as bad. I view commercial porn as bad. I have no issue with amateur stuff of a couple filming themselves. None. 
I think that you have a VERY healthy relationship and that is awesome!! 
Can you also understand a bit of what Syrum is saying however? It hasn't influenced your husband's mind but it can and does influence younger more impressionable boys/men. I read an article a while back that polled teenage boys who said the first time they saw an actual naked woman, they were shocked and slightly repulsed. The women looks nothing like what they thought they SHOULD. They didn't have large breasts, they weren't hairless down there and they didn't have the perfect form. They thought these women were somehow odd or weird. The real ones. On the flip side, many of these boys/young men talked about not feeling adequate. They didn't have the same size equipment as the men in porn. They failed to realize that a large penis isn't what matters but in porn, she is screaming because of it. How is this healthy?


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> All I can tell you is, I have a wonderful husband (he is a better human being than I am by far) , been looking and enjoying playboy since he was 11, learned pretty much all he knew about sex from these magazines. Does NOT at all like Breast implants, still likes hair on women, he waited till marraige to have sex with me (this was 8 yrs of waiting mind you) , and has always been 100% faithful, even feels masterbating is a form of cheating in marraige, and didn't do it, always waiting for me.
> 
> Also we've talked about if watching porn, if he "thinks" on some of these women, as it is something to discuss. It is important and bad IF a spouse is going there, I agree. He knows he can tell me ANYTHING, but swears he has never done this, and it is true, if we have it on, he prefers it off, a distraction. He has zero reason to lie to me as I have admitted I have randomly thought of other men in my head, maybe a hot porn star, and believe this little fantasy is totally normal. But for him, I guess it is not happening. (though again I think this is not the norm)
> 
> ...


People are not commodities and should not be for sale. And my fiance and myself have viewed porn. he has probably viewed far more then I care to think about really. I certainly don't think he is a bad person or hold it against him in way shape or form.

He treats me very well. Our sex life is very good. However that doesn't mean he hasn't been changed by the porn he has watched and that I haven't either. I can't unwatch or unsee anything I have seen.

the facts studies show porn does change you and your perceptions of things, to what degree depends on many variables. But everything we see and hear changes us and some for the worse, just like porn.

The pornification of women has permeated our culture and society, we now see it as an acceptable norm and people clearly invested in that norm will argue their right to view it and how women get to "choose" it to the death. I really don't think they can see the issue clearly. 

No one should ever have the right to buy and sell people or put their sexual desire over someones human rights and suffering.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

YouTube - Interview with Robert Jensen on pornography (1 of 5)

Listen to this. and

YouTube - Interview with Robert Jensen on pornography (2 of 5)


YouTube - Interview with Robert Jensen on pornography (3 of 5)

YouTube - Interview with Robert Jensen on pornography (4 of 5)

YouTube - Interview with Robert Jensen on pornography (5 of 5)

That's 1-5.

Interesting.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Grayson said:


> Honestly, I'm not quite sure what you mean here.
> 
> Yes , I do believe there is at least one man on this planet who doesn't let what he sees in porn drive his sex life: me.
> 
> ...


Very refreshing to read your perspective. It is so discouraging, confusing and dispiriting to read some of the defense of porn post. But you have to see that there are very few reasonable voices like yours.


You neither defend or condemn it. I cant be so neutral because I know that the young girls in these videos are manipulated. 

I believe defending porn is supporting predation of young girls to keep the new videos coming out. No 18 year old girl knows what she is doing when she agrees to make a porn video. It is easy for a predator to inducement a young girl into doing something that will damage her, she is new everything is exciting she knows of no consequences. A woman would never accept the same inducements.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Syrum said:


> People are not commodities and should not be for sale. And my fiance and myself have viewed porn. he has probably viewed far more then I care to think about really. I certainly don't think he is a bad person or hold it against him in way shape or form.
> 
> He treats me very well. Our sex life is very good. However that doesn't mean he hasn't been changed by the porn he has watched and that I haven't either. I can't unwatch or unsee anything I have seen.
> 
> ...


Syrum,
You can win some and you can not win others. SA has clearly stated that we all have choices. Good ones and bad ones. I agree with that. She has a somewhat Pollyanna view though. A woman who has been raped by her Father or brother, a woman who has spent her childhood in sexual abuse likely views herself as worthless and thus values herself solely based on her sexuality. Could she rise up like a Phoenix and say "no more"? Yes. Is it likely? No. She is so broken that she lacks the ability to recognize it. I talked about the women I knew on the set. They all came from this background and they also all took drugs to numb their pain. I doubt any of them thought next year I am going to apply to Harvard. They have no future. That was it. I liken it the same way as why a woman stays in a physically abusive relationship. People can look through the window and chastise her for staying but why is she staying? She is broken. She doesn't know any other way. 
SA talked about nobody starving in the fattest country on Earth. Education is free to all and healthcare is there for the taking. 
Everyday I drive to work and see a man who tries to make a living by gathering scrap metal in dumpsters and tossed along the road. He rides a bicycle and has attached a cart on wheels in the back. He is literally the sickest looking man I have ever seen. One day I walked up to him and we started talking. He dropped out of school in the 9th grade because his Mother was sick and she had to cut back her hours. He felt he needed to work. He did. With a 9th grade eduction he couldn't help her out much. After working fast food for a few years, a man approached him and said he could make alot more turning tricks. He did. He is now 26 years old with full blown AIDS and looks like he is 60. Heath and Human services would not pay for his drug ****tail back when it was HIV because it was too expensive. $1k a month. He is given pain killers to ease his suffering and that is all. His mother has since died and he is on the streets. When I met him he hadn't eaten for days. What options does he have? If nobody starves in the fattest country on Earth, what about him? If healthcare is a there for the taking, then why is he being left to die? 
I feed him every day. I make him breakfast and lunch and give him money for dinner. I drive up there on weekends and if I cannot, my husband does. 
Ghandi said how you treat your sickest and your youngest is a measure of your society. When are we going to realize that preying on those who cannot speak for themselves is unacceptable? 
Porn and prostitution isn't harmless. It just isn't.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Syrum,
> You can win some and you can not win others. SA has clearly stated that we all have choices. Good ones and bad ones. I agree with that. She has a somewhat Pollyanna view though. A woman who has been raped by her Father or brother, a woman who has spent her childhood in sexual abuse likely views herself as worthless and thus values herself solely based on her sexuality. Could she rise up like a Phoenix and say "no more"? Yes. Is it likely? No. She is so broken that she lacks the ability to recognize it. I talked about the women I knew on the set. They all came from this background and they also all took drugs to numb their pain. I doubt any of them thought next year I am going to apply to Harvard. They have no future. That was it. I liken it the same way as why a woman stays in a physically abusive relationship. People can look through the window and chastise her for staying but why is she staying? She is broken. She doesn't know any other way.
> SA talked about nobody starving in the fattest country on Earth. Education is free to all and healthcare is there for the taking.
> Everyday I drive to work and see a man who tries to make a living by gathering scrap metal in dumpsters and tossed along the road. He rides a bicycle and has attached a cart on wheels in the back. He is literally the sickest looking man I have ever seen. One day I walked up to him and we started talking. He dropped out of school in the 9th grade because his Mother was sick and she had to cut back her hours. He felt he needed to work. He did. With a 9th grade eduction he couldn't help her out much. After working fast food for a few years, a man approached him and said he could make alot more turning tricks. He did. He is now 26 years old with full blown AIDS and looks like he is 60. Heath and Human services would not pay for his drug ****tail back when it was HIV because it was too expensive. $1k a month. He is given pain killers to ease his suffering and that is all. His mother has since died and he is on the streets. When I met him he hadn't eaten for days. What options does he have? If nobody starves in the fattest country on Earth, what about him? If healthcare is a there for the taking, then why is he being left to die?
> ...


Exactly and Bravo.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Grayson said:


> Then by all means, tell him. When we first got together, I told my wife that if I'm in the mood and she's not, I don't want her to do it just to pacify me. If we aren't both enjoying it, there's no point. If I just want to get off, I've got a hand that's served me well over the years. By the same token, neither of us is beholden to do something we don't want to do.
> 
> 
> From reading this, quite frankly, I'd say the problem isn't porn. It isn't even that he might be "getting ideas" from porn. It's that the dynamic is uneven, and one that no longer lends itsel (if it ever did) to both of you feeling secure enough to voice not only wants and desires, but what you're uncomfortable with. If he's not willing to take your thoughts, feelings, likes and dislikes into account, there's far more at play than porn.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Gray I did not want to leave you with the idea that my husband in any way demands anything from me that I do not want to do. I was sexually repressed when we got married and I have grown a great deal. I want to make him happy. 

He accepted me exactly the way I was and would accept whatever I did as long as we have sex frequently enough for him to feel happy. But I know he wants more and so do I. 

If other men are enjoying special acts that are intensely pleasurable then why shouldn't my man. If any man deserves to have a good and satisfying sex life he does. So for me it is not enough to just have sex but to rock his world every now and again. I don't really care where the idea comes from, it not about the act for me, it is about seeing him happy. 

I enjoy most of what we do but as I mentioned, there are some things I have problems with and when I think too much, I feel that if porn did not create an interest in this sort of thing, I would not be struggling to make this happen. 

I am not blaming men, I am worried about the effects and the complacency. I have a boy and a girl what is going to happen to them, how are they going to manage to find love and happiness in an increasingly pornified society?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Syrum & Brennan great, post, really. thanks


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

This thread has gone crazy. It is either people telling others they are bad or horrible for watching porn or people who thinks its okay. I have decided I will stick to amateur but if you watch it, good for you. If your against, okay, great that is good for you too. I see it like anything else in the world, and its not closing my eye to the problem. You can pick and choose what problems you battle, because you can not do all of them. Right now, (not having a lot of money either) we donate all the time to March of Dimes, and/or red cross. I have a neighbor that refuses to buy meat from factory farm companies but buys crap made in china. I have a family member who refuses to but clothing made in another country, but has no problem buying tech from some company in Asia. 3 or 4 of you have a thing against porn, but I doubt I see you with a picket at Wal-mart.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Bigwayneo said:


> This thread has gone crazy. It is either people telling others they are bad or horrible for watching porn or people who thinks its okay. I have decided I will stick to amateur but if you watch it, good for you. If your against, okay, great that is good for you too. I see it like anything else in the world, and its not closing my eye to the problem. You can pick and choose what problems you battle, because you can not do all of them. Right now, (not having a lot of money either) we donate all the time to March of Dimes, and/or red cross. I have a neighbor that refuses to buy meat from factory farm companies but buys crap made in china. I have a family member who refuses to but clothing made in another country, but has no problem buying tech from some company in Asia. 3 or 4 of you have a thing against porn, but I doubt I see you with a picket at Wal-mart.


Really Big Wayneo? I happen to care about many issues, and poverty, capitalism, exploitation etc are just a few. I do tend to focus on large scale industries and I try to be as ethical as possible. I don't just pay lip service to this, i have lobbied, emailed, written etc to many companies and governing bodies and not just about porn.

This is not something that is happening in a third world country, this is the USA, this is something that effects the way men view and treat 50% of the population. That is serious. You can care about more than one thing at a time, and the exploitation, sexual slavery, buying and selling of women, abuse, degradation and women's poverty is something you can care about, and should not ignore. 

It's easy to say, the issues too big, or there are other terrible things going on in the world. well none of them are right, and if you can do something about it, why don't you?

You can care about it simply by not contributing to it, by not downloading porn, by not clicking on it. it's simple really, unless you have a vested interest in ensuring women are treated this way for your own selfish sexual desires.

Also going by your signature you are religious (IDK)?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

No, quite the opposite, the signature calls into question the very existence of God.

It is an atheist credo.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> no his quite the opposite, the signature seems to call into question the very existence of God.


Ha yes, I couldn't remember what it said when I was posting, and I edited.

Any who just want to say again that any man who wouldn't want someone he loved making porn, his daughter/sister/wife/mother and still watches it is a hypocrite.

Anyone who claims he loves someone and would want or wouldn't mind them in porn is lying about one or the other.

Also if you watch it but admit you wouldn't want your daughter to go in the industry for instance, why is that? think about it really!


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Ha ha, judging by what my husband told me once, that line of an argument does not fly with any man.

According to a man his own women.. be that serious girlfriends/wives/daughters/mothers... are a completely different "breed" of women than women overall.

A man, whose daughter is 19-20, would want just about to lock her up at home till she's 40. Preferable career choice? A nun. LOL The very same man would have no qualms going out with someone else's 19-20 year old daughter.

This is actually funny.. I would want our daughter to have fantastic sex. My husband would want our daughter to have zero/zilch/nada sex. Ever. LOL


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Ha yes, I couldn't remember what it said when I was posting, and I edited.
> 
> Any who just want to say again that any man who wouldn't want someone he loved making porn, his daughter/sister/wife/mother and still watches it is a hypocrite.
> 
> ...


well, for the first part, if anyone I cared for really wanted to make porn...more power to them. Honest. I still do not agree with you on how it effects the male perception of women, but that is an argument we could have till the end of time, (its like the violence in video game argument, which IMO is total BS) does it effect some, or hell a lot of males? Sure but so does a thousand other things. If one of my two daughters want to go pose for playboy, more power to them, will I try to steer them towards law school, I.T., or being a doc sure.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Bigwayneo said:


> well, for the first part, if anyone I cared for really wanted to make porn...more power to them. Honest. I still do not agree with you on how it effects the male perception of women, but that is an argument we could have till the end of time, (its like the violence in video game argument, which IMO is total BS) does it effect some, or hell a lot of males? Sure but so does a thousand other things. If one of my two daughters want to go pose for playboy, more power to them, will I try to steer them towards law school, I.T., or being a doc sure.


Why posing for play boy? Why not a sex tape, double penatration 5 guys cumming in their face? More power to them eh? Why would you steer them towards other careers?:scratchhead: Could porn be bad for them perhaps? Don't want them to be seen as mere cum buckets?

BTW posing for playboy brings no woman any power. Real power comes from being able to make real choices. It does not come from taking your clothes off and getting men hard. In fact I think it's the opposite of power. it may make some women feel sexually powerful in the moment but if dissected it means nothing, it's false and empty. because once they have their orgasm they don't value you, they don't care for you, they don't care if you are abused, they have no human connection to you. The fact that men tell women that the most important thing is their sexuality and that their power lies in that is sad. 

As a father you should be instilling in your daughter that their power lies in them, as people as human beings, and what they can bring and offer as people. Other wise I am just truly sad for them and you.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Bigwayneo said:


> well, for the first part, if anyone I cared for really wanted to make porn...more power to them. Honest. I still do not agree with you on how it effects the male perception of women, but that is an argument we could have till the end of time, (its like the violence in video game argument, which IMO is total BS) does it effect some, or hell a lot of males? Sure but so does a thousand other things. If one of my two daughters want to go pose for playboy, more power to them, will I try to steer them towards law school, I.T., or being a doc sure.


The effects of porn and all social media can be subtle and show attitude changes and shifts in society over time, it does not mean that it turns everyone into raging loonies, more that it effects the over all tone of society and how people are treated and viewed in general. Society currently believes that is acceptable to evaluate women on their sexuality first and foremost.

If social media has no effect on us, why do advertisers bother to spend billions to try and get us to buy things? i know why, because peoples brains are plastic and can be shaped and moulded by what they see and hear.

One video game would probably change nothing, the increasing level of graphic violence and the depiction of the ill treatment of women and sometimes children, and the pornification of women in just about everything, Porn, TV, television, movies, music clips etc overwhealmingly shapes our views of women and what is acceptable and not acceptable. To you and many others it's become acceptable and it's no wonder. 

I guess you might be the only person I know who isn't influenced by society and social media. Major changes in society do not occur without a shift in the dynamics and the way people view their world, these can be good and bad, these can come from all sorts of places, and the fact that porn is now mainstream and a norm shows a huge shift in society over the last 50 years. The pornification of women is now part of our culture, and women and girls and men and boys are influenced by that every single day in subtle and unsubtle ways. They just don't know it.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

For interests sake here's an article about violence and video games. 


> Psychologists Produce First Study On Violence Desensitization From Video Games
> 
> ScienceDaily (July 27, 2006) — Research led by a pair of Iowa State University psychologists has proven for the first time that exposure to violent video games can desensitize individuals to real-life violence.
> 
> ...


Psychologists Produce First Study On Violence Desensitization From Video Games

I believe the same can be said of porn and I have allready posted info on how it does in fact do this very thing and change people's brain.

If we are unchanged by things we see and view why does violence not shock us? Why is it so MEH, why does the violence against women and degradation of women in porn not shock us? Because we are desensitized, we are sheep BAAAAA.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> So the term "MORE" is what is insulting. When I say more, I am usually thinking of health care. The poorest of the poor get it completly free (I'm not saying they shouldn't) , but as soon as you get a job, even if you can barely live on the income, you loose the health care. This shouldn't be, those people are poor too (not Middle class though).
> 
> I should not have used the term "Middle class", I am not even sure what that is, probably making over $70,000 a year for a family of 4 maybe? I have experiences with the very poor myself. I've have met prostitutes, even lived with a man, when visiting my Mother in my youth who was a murderer -released from Prison. I have seen the devestation, walked among it in a very big city, sat & listened to her many stories, but I have also observed their "choices" along the way. Many of them choose wild living over other paths, but the choices were there.
> 
> ...


I know this is off topic and it's my fault because I went there so I hope y'all don't mind me continuing 

First, free healthcare means clinics with a very small amount of doctors willing to take the small fee's medicaid/medicare will pay. It does not mean choice.

Second, educational opportunity is based upon income. This is because the poorer you are the less likely you can afford to live in a public school district where the education is up to par. Couple this with disillusioned teachers, corrupt administrations and parents that don't care or don't have the time to care and you get a crappy education.

Third, the answer is not more money given to welfare programs or given to school districts that under perform.

Fourth, middle class...ah me. My husband makes about $60k and we live in a wealthy area. It is very tight budgeting and balancing. Ironically, we want for nothing. My children get to attend the best schools, live in a safe neighborhood that has wonderful family oriented events and the beach is less than a mile walk from our house. We pay $600 a month for our health insurance. Sigh. Taxes are horrible. NJ is not a cheap state to live in. I will say right now that we're not the norm. Money is really only important to me in that we need it to provide for our family. With each purchase I make, I always think, ahha...I'm no happier than I was before this purchase. DUH! I'd much rather be taking our extra cash and investing it into positive change for the world. I'm not the norm though and so I've accepted this but I still find it frustrating.

I know life is what you make it. I know you think that if you can do it, anyone can do it or that you can only feel sorry for people for so long...self responsibility is important. The problem is that society is reliant on the poor as scapegoats. Everyone cannot be middle class or rich.

Lastly, the answer is the children. You *cannot *leave a helpless child in an environment of poverty, drug abuse, addiction, crime and less than adequate education and expect them to suddenly overcome and become high functioning, well balanced adults. If this happens it is the rarity rather than the norm.

In NJ we have what is called Abbott School Districts, created after legislation that ruled children living in poverty receive less than adequate education than children who don't. The problem with this is millions is sunk into these school districts and little improvement is seen. Tax payers are angry and the students in these school systems are still failing miserably.

-BUT-

The foster care system is over burdened in all states in the US, across the board. This safety net where most children from the worst circumstances end up, is poorly run and over burdened. Advocacy for children that have had the worst happen to them is almost non-existent, foster care families in well to do areas are just as non-existent.

What is the answer? All adults stepping up to the plate and caring for more than their family and their direct communities. A government bureaucracy will never solve the problems of the human condition. Couple this with declaring that these children undoubtedly deserve better. Programs that empower children and teach them that they are worthy of being themselves, that they have choices, that education is available if they work for it, that they, too, deserve to live the life of their dreams.

We talk about abuse. We all know at this point that I've had some share of abuse as a child. It is absolutely NOTHING compared to what I have seen in the lives of children in foster care. It is so tiny that it makes me feel ridiculous for feeling sorry for myself at all. My parents are wealthy and I was raised within this wealth. Some in my extended family are extremely wealthy...they struggle with issues of alcoholism that allow them to wither away in their big, perfect houses. Perhaps this is one of the major reasons that I realize wealth does not equal happiness at all. It instead gives off the appearance of success. Oh but how jaded our ideas of success really are.

A few years ago myself and a few others began a program Journal to Graduation. It was similar to the Freedom Writer's Foundation...which you can watch the movie which chronicles the experience and teaching of Erin Gruwell. FWF Home - Freedom Writers Foundation

Programs like these are the answer. I fully believe in the power of non-profits but until more people care about issues that are real without bias, and get out and volunteer...create and connect with children in these circumstances, broad sweeping change will not be possible.

In NJ we have an organization called CASA. It is the best darn organization I have ever worked with. Volunteers from the community sign up for a minimum one year commitment to advocate for a child in foster care. They have access to all the files and go to court with only the child's best interests in mind. They also look for resources for their child. It has a 93% success rate in changing children's lives. It's impossible to get a real peak into the lives of any of these children and not want to stand up for them.

Imagine that!

So, my point is...until we all care enough to step up and take part in changing the lives of children in these circumstances, until we SHOUT that these children are worthy of more than they have been handed from birth...yes, the cycle will continue.

What organizations receive the most funding in the U.S.? The answer is medical NGO's (Non-Government Organizations). Why is this? It's because anyone who knows someone they love who suffers with or has had a medical issues, such as breast cancer, is willing to step up and shout on their behalf. They become a band of pink unity willing to do whatever it takes to cure this horrible cancer that affects so many women. Billions and billions of funds, but more importantly, a loud, unified and resounding voice that screams for a cure. 

Do children who are born in the worst of circumstances deserve this band of support any less?

It's time we step up and shout on the behalf of those without the ability to give themselves a voice. You want change, complaining about free healthcare amongst the poor won't do a thing to change it. I promise. I know exactly where you're coming from. I've felt exactly like you but the more information, education and actions I took towards understanding what was going on...the more clear it became.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Trenton, I think you need to go into Politics, this is where you're heart is at. Go make that difference. All good stuff. 

I guess my only contribution is: When I was in school, and when I meet people, I seem to gravitate towards the Underdog, been told this a # of times by others who have noticed. I NEVER look at somene's social status, means nothing to me. But I AM guilty of looking at their choices in life. And I teach my kids to be KIND to all children who are beaten down in school, appear to have no friends. To be their friend, not to worry about the stigma -because sometimes all it takes is ONE GOOD FRIEND in life who sticks by you -helps with that self -esteem that has been destroyed at home- to change your life & set you on a good path, enabling you to make better choices. 

One of my closer friends is a woman who was released from Foster Care as the youngest child -allowed to be adopted, 2 of her siblings died by the hands of her natural parents, 4 others escaped . She has fared the best of them all -maybe because she was the youngest, less to remember, and got that "good" home. 

My son just learned of his hiring for a Summer Camp this summer where he will be a Counselor working with these type kids, all inner city with many problems. He lives to make a difference in people's lives, more so than me but his influenece is all about "Jesus". I know they need more than that.

Yes, we all need more empathy & compassion.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Brennan said:


> SA,
> Your husband and mine sound alot alike. They really do.
> I don't view all porn as bad. I view commercial porn as bad. I have no issue with amateur stuff of a couple filming themselves. None.
> I think that you have a VERY healthy relationship and that is awesome!!
> Can you also understand a bit of what Syrum is saying however?


 Yes, I can. I do not care for the Black & white mentality of her judgments upon* ALL *men. She has a Fundamentalist mindset with this issue. It is futile for me to even express my thoughts - she is right, WE ARE WRONG. 

Further, she believes we should have no right to view it - we are belittled as compassionless objectifiers damaging innocent women around the globe, damaging ourselves, our marraiges, society, even our minds can not escape subtle harm. This is her firm belief. This is NOT mine, not for all men.  I do not in any way deny or would spit in someone's face that many men abuse porn, wives suffer due to addictions. I am even against hard core, I think it goes too far, more regulations should be on the internet even. But instructional videos, I have zero issues with such things -where consenting adults choose to take part. 

My husband does NOT objectify women , nor look down on them. Sure he likes a little eye candy, this is the nature of testosterone. My husband is a lower test guy, for me this tells me he is hormonally healthy & thriving, He is such a good guy, that I accually ENJOY seeing this "bad boy" part of him. And beings I used to be like a NUN, he likes that I am naughty as well - and we are completely & utterly monogomous. Takes nothing away from our marraige. If you knew us personally, you would SEE and believe. 

And now, Syrum is throwing out the hypocrite card asking if any men would want their mothers, sisters or daughters doing porn. Much arsenol there. Crucify us. I asked my husband this morning, he admits immediately then he is a hypocrite. I guess me too. As if any of us are NOT in one area or another. Come now. 

Given she also finds Romance novels harmful, I can assume sexual fantases of any type are also within this hurtful damaging realm. This is completely over the top for me personally. Her fiance should make note of these things for their future together, lest he dare have a wayward thought & express it. Better not be checking out another woman in her presence - He will be in the dog house for some time. 

Lord, we should be shot, we visit Strip Clubs too. A male friend of mine is dating a stripper, she is an elementary School Teacher, 38 yrs old & enjoys her job on the side, she is putting her oldest through college with this cash. She talked with us at lenght one night. Seems very sincere but I can't help but wonder if she is USING HIM ! He spends alot of money on her! Women use men too. To throw that out of the equation entirely- in every instance, for me, is just wrong. Women choose to do these things for $$$, lots of it and fast. It comes from their own mouths. 




Brennan said:


> It hasn't influenced your husband's mind but it can and does influence younger more impressionable boys/men. I read an article a while back that polled teenage boys who said the first time they saw an actual naked woman, they were shocked and slightly repulsed.


 I am assuming what you mean here is these porn women look like Barbie -shaply size 3's, then when they get together with their girlfriends naked (who else would they be looking at naked?), they are disappointed- repulsed seems rather severe to me. If they are not repulsed by their looks with clothes on, there is no way I would believe suddendly they would be repulsed taken off. (other than they may not be used to the hair -looking at porn today).

Not really sure why it would be any different for us woman, I like the looks of a slender man, and would choose to marry one, obesity would be repulsing to me. But God made all types, I have a male friend who CHOOSES and loves Plus size women, I will never forget him giving me a drive somewhere yrs ago, looking down & seeing his "Plumpers" magazine in the floor- (Plus sized porn)- he has no interest in Hugh Hefners bunnies. But he still enjoyed his little bit of porn, though his flavor was not easy to come by. Another good husband, faithful father, even into some of these politics we talk about. Also another hypocriet I guess as he does not even allow his young daughters to wear sleeveless shirts. 



Brennan said:


> On the flip side, many of these boys/young men talked about not feeling adequate. They didn't have the same size equipment as the men in porn. They failed to realize that a large penis isn't what matters but in porn, she is screaming because of it. How is this healthy?


I asked my husband about this -just this morning. He was only into PLAYBOY, reading articles and enjoyed the layouts of women, he said they never had pictiures of the men's penis's in these magazines. That was always hidden. He would not have cared to look anyway. He is not into even seeing the man in porn. So he had no comparisons. I seriously doubt these things would bother him anyway. Life is riddled with temptations to compare - from our houses, our jobs, our hairstyles, our children, our cars, our marraiges, how is this anything new under the sun.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Syrum said:


> For interests sake here's an article about violence and video games.
> 
> 
> Psychologists Produce First Study On Violence Desensitization From Video Games
> ...


To be honest, I think you need a tinfoil hat. It has been showed so many times video games have little effect if any. NOT to mention its the parents that need to man up and do there part. 

The Video Game Revolution: "Eight Myths About Video Games Debunked" by Henry Jenkins | PBS

This one is interesting little fact.
Video game - violence link debunked | News Cut | Minnesota Public Radio 

Henry Jenkins, PhD - Video Games - ProCon.org

We both can play this game on both subjects.

Interesting article on porn as well-
Does Pornography Cause Social Harm? | Psychology Today

We both could play the link a article study game all day.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, I can. I do not care for the Black & white mentality of her judgments upon* ALL *men. She has a Fundamentalist mindset with this issue. It is futile for me to even express my thoughts - she is right, WE ARE WRONG.
> 
> Further, she believes we should have no right to view it - we are belittled as compassionless objectifiers damaging innocent women around the globe, damaging ourselves, our marraiges, society, even our minds can not escape subtle harm. This is her firm belief. This is NOT mine, not for all men.  I do not in any way deny or would spit in someone's face that many men abuse porn, wives suffer due to addictions. I am even against hard core, I think it goes too far, more regulations should be on the internet even. But instructional videos, I have zero issues with such things -where consenting adults choose to take part.
> 
> ...


I wish I could post as well as you did. I am just horrible with words.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

Honestly, we can argue and post links until the cows come home. We will never reach a consensus on The Great Porn Issue. This dead horse has been flogged in this forum. It's like trying to reach an agreement about abortion.
I never read romance novels because I would rather think of ways to keep the romance alive in my OWN life, rather than escape into an unrealistic fantasy world.
Porn is something that I enjoy, as long as it does not involve children or animals. While its true that sex workers have usually survived sexual abuse, the same could be said for promiscuous women, who are NOT being forced to sleep around.
I think that porn (or romance novels) only become a problem if they are taking away from marital sex. Otherwise, it can even enhance a couple's sex life. I grew up with 3 boys, so I accept that men are visual and watching porn does not mean that their partners are not loved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

I figure there is no need to be offended at Syrum's opinions. It's her own opinion that she is entitled to.

The only whatchamacallit beef I have is this (recurring here and there) ->



> I believe the same can be said of porn and I have already *posted info on how it does in fact do this very thing and change people's brain*.


There is no such thing as a scientific fact on actual brain changes caused by porn. Simply because there is no such scientific research yet.

Syrum keeps talking about effects of social media on us, about advertisers spending billions in order to change/shape/mould people's brains. That is BS. All social media does is change/shape/mould people's opinions.

You saw an ad of something during Superbowl? You begin to think it's gotta be a good product. Just because it "happened" to be featured during Superbowl.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, I can. I do not care for the Black & white mentality of her judgments upon* ALL *men. She has a Fundamentalist mindset with this issue. It is futile for me to even express my thoughts - she is right, WE ARE WRONG.


I could say you have a fundamental exploitative mindset.



> Further, she believes we should have no right to view it - we are belittled as compassionless objectifiers damaging innocent women around the globe, damaging ourselves, our marraiges, society, even our minds can not escape subtle harm. This is her firm belief. This is NOT mine, not for all men.  I do not in any way deny or would spit in someone's face that many men abuse porn, wives suffer due to addictions. I am even against hard core, I think it goes too far, more regulations should be on the internet even. But instructional videos, I have zero issues with such things -where consenting adults choose to take part.


Instructional videos for the most part was not what we were talking about that was merely one point. I am talking about porn.



> My husband does NOT objectify women , nor look down on them. Sure he likes a little eye candy, this is the nature of testosterone.


That is objectification.



> And now, Syrum is throwing out the hypocrite card asking if any men would want their mothers, sisters or daughters doing porn. Much arsenol there. Crucify us. I asked my husband this morning, he admits immediately then he is a hypocrite. I guess me too. As if any of us are NOT in one area or another. Come now.


I see nopthing wrong with asking that question, it just shines a big light on the truth of this issue and how women are not respected and are in fact used. i try not to be a hypocrite if I can help it, porn is one area, I can do something about it.



> Given she also finds Romance novels harmful, I can assume sexual fantases of any type are also within this hurtful damaging realm. This is completely over the top for me personally. Her fiance should make note of these things for their future together, lest he dare have a wayward thought & express it. Better not be checking out another woman in her presence - He will be in the dog house for some time.


Obviously what I have said has struck a chord with you and you are becoming defensive. I was not attacking any one elses relationships not asuming anything about your husband or wives.

But my fiance is on here perhaps you could ask him about how I feel about sex and fantasies. caring about women and human rights does not a prude make.

Moreover yes I would be hurt if he was checking out other women in front of me, just as he would be hurt if I was checking out other guys.  we respect each other and focus on our relationship, and it's working pretty good so far. thanks.



> Lord, we should be shot, we visit Strip Clubs too. A male friend of mine is dating a stripper, she is an elementary School Teacher, 38 yrs old & enjoys her job on the side, she is putting her oldest through college with this cash. She talked with us at lenght one night. Seems very sincere but I can't help but wonder if she is USING HIM ! He spends alot of money on her! Women use men too. To throw that out of the equation entirely- in every instance, for me, is just wrong. Women choose to do these things for $$$, lots of it and fast. It comes from their own mouths.


I have known strippers and prostitutes too but their stories are not so rosy.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> I figure there is no need to be offended at Syrum's opinions. It's her own opinion that she is entitled to.
> 
> The only whatchamacallit beef I have is this (recurring here and there) ->
> 
> ...


Your opinions are developed by what you see and hear. Your opinions change from a change in your brain and how you view and process information and make sense of your world. This comes from society and everything that happens to you, and every message you get unsubtle and subtle. Overwhelmingly from social media, we are now saturated with it.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

OK Syrum. I just saw an ad on TV. The ad is about this new KoolAid kinda thing. I decide it sounds great. And I am going to get it.

So that means while coming back home from shopping, I should visit my friendly neighborhood lobotomist. Because my brain grew a Kool tumor.

Oh wait.. Maybe it's the other way around.. My brain grew a tumor.. and That's why I have a compulsion to go out and buy KoolAid.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> OK Syrum. I just saw an ad on TV. The ad is about this new KoolAid kinda thing. I decide it sounds great. And I am going to get it.
> 
> So that means while coming back home from shopping, I should visit my friendly neighborhood lobotomist. Because my brain grew a Kool tumor.
> 
> Oh wait.. Maybe it's the other way around.. My brain grew a tumor.. and That's why I have a compulsion to go out and buy KoolAid.


I think this post shows you don't understand what I was saying. I allready stated that one thing isn't likely to make a radical change to society, it is the accumulative effect.

And I believe companies spend money for a reason, perhaps because they have been shown it works? Or do you think billion $ companies enjoy wasting money?:scratchhead:


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

We are going in circles  

Can we just agree on not using this word -> "fact" ?


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> We are going in circles
> 
> Can we just agree on not using this word -> "fact" ?


No I think it's pretty obvious how society and our brains work.

If it didn't work that way we would be stagnant and unchanging. All societies would function the same, the norms would be the same, the brain would process things exactly the same way and everyone would hold the same opinion.


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## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

Brennan said:


> If porn doesn't change you in the way you view women, then let me ask you why is being bald/very little down there now the only acceptable grooming? It wasn't because a bunch of women woke up one day and thought "Hmmmm, I'm bored" and grabbed sheers. It was/is because that is what men have expected from their partner BECAUSE of porn. Same goes for anal although not as mainstream....yet.


So true about the "bald" thing! I have a girlfriend who is a cop and she said that almost all the women she has had to strip search over the last several years are totally bare.....she's asked quite a few why they took it all off and the answer on every occasion has been "it's what (their) men prefer". 

And it's not just men it affects....it starts with young boys. I first realised how serious the porn in society problem was when my (then) 13 year old daughter asked me about arse bleaching - one of her girlfriends was talking about wanting it done because her boyfriend didn't like the colour of hers. 

13 years old....how incredibly sad that she was already sexually active but even more sad that she was prepared to change herself simply to make a boy happy. Where did he get the idea from?

Up until that point I was fairly blaze about the whole porn thing - I wasn't in to it personally but thought each to their own. In fact I actually worked for 12 months designing & building porn websites for the web design company I worked for. I had become so desensitised to it all that the people in the videos and photos were no longer people....they were "great boobs"..."big c*ck"...."good cum shot" etc. etc.

But when it came knocking at my door in the form of my teen daughter already being faced with the kind of body-image pressure that it can cause....well, I couldn't remain a fence sitter any longer. I stopped doing the websites and started becoming more aware of the effects porn is having in our world...her world.

I know there will always be people who will find ways to justify the use of porn - they have to....it makes them feel okay about using it. If they don't look at it with a social conscience then they don't have feel responsible for the bigger picture.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

I grew up with porn and didn't have any body issues. My parents were so open with sexuality that it wasn't a big deal. They also taught me to be self confident and to never do anything just because some boy wanted me to. Today we do have more body image problems from mainstream media than porn.

To this day I do things to please my husband but they are MY idea. I have the right to say no at any time. Mostly I got a good guy. He's not one to ask me to do rediculous things like wax - he knows how painful it is. I do it yes but only because it's easier than shaving and I think it looks neater. I'm not bare though just well groomed.


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## KathyGriffinFan (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm cool with porn and the hubby watching it but only while I am present. I am not a tool to be used during watching it, because we speak to one another and communicate even while watching it. 
Sometimes we like to try something different and our routine varies.

Early in our marriage, I made it clear I was okay with it. I grew up with parents that watched it (eventually I found it myself) and recently found their "stash" while searching for something, and they are in their late 50's. They seem to be healthy and are still together after all this time.

Everything in life needs to be in moderation. I'm not going to refuse watching porn because some other folks might be addicted to it. Gambling, drinking, and sex are all addictive, but I don't stay away from these things in fear of them.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Busy weekend, both on and off the thread. May try to address some specific posts later, but on an effort to not just toss out a long string of my own replies, my thoughts on a few of the general points that have come up--

*Would I want someone I care about to go into porn?*

Honestly hadn't considered it. Don't have a daughter, so that specific permutation isn't one I can truly wrap my head around. Wife, girlfriend, mother? Probably not. That's as much to do with the stigma attached and the resulting reactions others might have than anything else. If they're of a personality type who can handle the business emotionally, though, they're adults and it's their decision to make, whether I like it or not. Does that make me a hypocrite? If so, so be it. As the saying goes, do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself. I am vast. I contain multitudes.

*On avoiding all porn because some productions involve illegal/harmful activity:*

If we avoid an entire industry and it's output because SOME of it is produced in such a fashion...we won't have much, if anything, out there. We'd avoid ALL clothing because Kathie Lee Gifford's clothing brand employed forced child labor. We'd avoid ALL chicken because Pilgrim's Pride violated regulations in their treatment of chickens and/or because Bo Pilgrim flagrantly tried to buy support by trying to hand out checks on the Congressional floor. Heck, we couldn't even buy comic books because Warner Brothers has been involved in a nasty copyright dispute for years with the heirs of Jerry Seigel, co-creator of Superman.

*On influencing others' ideas/wants/desires:*

We've touched on this before. Suffice to say, while I agree porn CAN influence such things, I don't think it follows that it always, inevitably does. Regarding body image, etc. I'd say that broadcast/basic cable programming has as much or more impact on the general populace than porn, especially among younger demographics. I mean, one of the most popular shows on the Disney-owned, supposedly family-friendly ABC Family channel is "The Secret Life of the American Teenager," now in it's third or fourth season, about the sexual shenanigans of high school students, starting it's run with them as freshmen. Throw in "healthy" doses of so-called "reality" tv, and you've got a pretty nice recipe for expectations and self-image being out of whack if the individual(s) in question don't already have a firm grasp on reality vs fantasy/fiction. That grasp of what's real and what's not has to start at home.

Which reminds me of a recent comment from "Glee"'s Dianna Agron. In response to complaints about the suggestive photo shoot she and co-stars Lea Michele and Cory Monteith did for GQ magazine, she said (paraphrasing), "All three of us are adults. I'm sorry if you're upset or offended that your 8-year-old saw te photos, but I just have to ask: why was your 8-year-old looking at GQ in the first place?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't think we know if the easy availability of internet porn will increase the proportion of men who become addicted to watching or obsessed with some sexual act. Or if the time spent watching porn will impact American productivity and intellectual development. 

Or how young boys who grow up watching internet porn will be able to perform with real woman. The generation coming of age today is the first to be exposed at so young an age. 

Porn is geared towards the visual stimulation and gratification of men, if it makes them masturbate then it is good sex. Real sex is nothing like that. Porn teaches men how to have sex with a vaginal, mouth or butt, not how to make love to a woman. 

Some men realize that some never do. Will boys growing up getting their sexual education from porn, learn to make love to a woman? I hope so, if not, woman may lose interest in having sex with men who do not know the difference.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

The problem you describe, though, is not one limited to porn. Distilled, the essence of the point you just made is someone using a piece of entertainment/fiction as their primary source of education. Someone using, say, an action movie as their primary source of information for conflict resolution is going to have equally skewed issues in the real world. Someone using romantic comedies as a source for navigating relationships will not have a true grasp of how relationships work.

This brings us right back to the root of the problem being the person who mid-applies what they see in a work of fiction to their real life, not with the genre of the work of fiction itself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Gray reading your post made me think of the role of Cinderella/princess stories that little girls are fed that effect their expectations of the men in their lives. We have had the Disney fantasy films for years and look at what it does. I am not a stupid woman but an element of my expectations when I married was based on magical thinking. I suppose if we complain that some men have unrealistic sexual expectations due to porn, we have to also say that some women have unrealistic expectations of men in relationships due to princess fables. 

As an example, why do some women find it so hard to be explicit about what they want of a man? Maybe because prince charming never had to be told. Why do some women expect men to be romantic all of the time, or to always have all of the answers, or to make oodles of money but still have time to talk endlessly about the relationship and buy her a castle and Bentley? 

Lets admit that humans are prone to dream the impossible, which have lead to many great things in society. But in personal relationships the reality is so much richer, so full and unpredictable, ever changing and exciting, who wants a script. 

I still think porn is more damaging for the lives of young girls it eats up and spits out but I see some corollaries in atitudes about the opposite gender. I am loving the one I am with now that I am older and wiser, my husband is so far and above any 1 D prince charming. I think we should strive for not growing our sons and daughters up on fantasies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Great example, Catherine.

Fantasy is fine as long as we enjoy that fantasy with a firm grasp on reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

The tendancy in porn is to:

...portray that women are objects. Really, orifices in many cases.

...establish unrealistic expectations. These expectations are both about looks (for men and women) and performance. "Why does my W never do ______?" (because she's not in a porn film)

...be degrading. Most of the time it's women that are degraded, but not always.

But perhaps the most pervasive issue with porn is how it can cross over into the real world. It's usually filmed so that the man is faceless. This is so a man will fantasize that he's the one doing whatever is being done. Eventually this can lead to the man needing whatever the actress has/does in order to be satisfied. 

These just aren't healthy expectations. For example, how is it healthy in any way for a 45 year old man to imagine that he's being sexually degrading to an 18 or 19 year old girl?

I have nothing againt sex. I have nothing against experimentation. I have nothing against masturbation. I also know that there is a small percentage of porn that doesn't match what I said above. But most does... and most is unhealthy for an individual and the couple they are part of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Grayson said:


> Great example, Catherine.
> 
> Fantasy is fine as long as we enjoy that fantasy with a firm grasp on reality.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And the issue with and difference between these fantasies is one starts in childhood and IMO is squashed quickly thereafter. The first involves fictional characters and no men are really harmed.

The other one is not really a fantasy because it uses real women, and is fostered encouraged and excused, and moreover portrayed to women as something they really need to be living up to to keep a man happy. It also uses real women or I should say young girls, commodifies them and tosses them aside. It perpetuates the idea that women exist to pleasure men and that it's OK to have meaningless sex with people without connection.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

OOE said:


> The tendancy in porn is to:
> 
> ...portray that women are objects. Really, orifices in many cases.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that refreshing male view point. :iagree:


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Syrum said:


> And the issue with and difference between these fantasies is one starts in childhood and IMO is squashed quickly thereafter. The first involves fictional characters and no men are really harmed.
> 
> The other one is not really a fantasy because it uses real women, and is fostered encouraged and excused, and moreover portrayed to women as something they really need to be living up to to keep a man happy. It also uses real women or I should say young girls, commodifies them and tosses them aside. It perpetuates the idea that women exist to pleasure men and that it's OK to have meaningless sex with people without connection.


Enchanted.

The Princess Bride.

Ever After.

All live action, not animated, just as examples. Using live actors does not automatically eliminate something from being fiction/fantasy. Or is it your contention that, say, Avatar is a documentary?

If it's the matter of live actors on screen that, apparently in your view, makes it impossible for ANYONE viewing porn to recognize it as fiction/fantasy, then I go back to what I pointed out earlier:

Are you equally outraged at the off-kilter expectations set for romantic relationships by romantic comedies? Are you equally outraged that, for instance, professional football uses real men or I should say young boys, commodifies them and tosses them aside?


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

OOE said:


> The tendancy in porn is to:
> 
> ...portray that women are objects. Really, orifices in many cases.
> 
> ...


To a point, I can agree. ANY form of entertainment plays to its primary audience. Historically, the primary audience for porn has been male. It's my understanding that, currently, with availability broadening due to the internet, mail order, etc., more women are viewing porn, as well. While currently a niche market, the niche for porn conceived for and targeted towards women and/or couples is growing.

Likewise, I wouldn't say that in all or even most cases, to use your example, a 45 year old man is "imagining that he's being sexually degrading to an 18 or 19 year old girl," but rather that said 45 year old man is simply enjoying what he's seeing on his tv or computer screen, or the pages of a magazine. You may still find that objectionable, and so be it. But I think it's disingenuous to automatically ascribe sinister motives to someone for viewing porn.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Catherine602 said:


> Or how young boys who grow up watching internet porn will be able to perform with real woman. The generation coming of age today is the first to be exposed at so young an age.


Sex in the future will probably be done through an iPhone app or through some facebook interface.

I wonder how young boys are going to be able to speak face to face with a girl/woman without a computer between them.


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## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

nice777guy said:


> Sex in the future will probably be done through an iPhone app or through some facebook interface.


Welcome to the future! USB vibrator....comes with a handy usb extention cord. 

Not sure if there is anything similar out there for the blokes.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

surfergirl said:


> Welcome to the future! USB vibrator....comes with a handy usb extention cord.
> 
> Not sure if there is anything similar out there for the blokes.



Kewl...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Syrum said:


> And the issue with and difference between these fantasies is one starts in childhood and IMO is squashed quickly thereafter. The first involves fictional characters and no men are really harmed.
> 
> The other one is not really a fantasy because it uses real women, and is fostered encouraged and excused, and moreover portrayed to women as something they really need to be living up to to keep a man happy. It also uses real women or I should say young girls, commodifies them and tosses them aside. It perpetuates the idea that women exist to pleasure men and that it's OK to have meaningless sex with people without connection.


>>>> WORD >>>> 

I have never read a more clear and succinct description of porn. This is exactly what porn is and what it does. You can argue that some porn actresses get lots of money and choose it as a profession or that some article in Family Circle says it is harmless or that it is good for sex between couples, or the people who hate it are hypocrites, which, even if true, does not out weigh the more evil aspects of porn.

It may be be fiercely defended until it destroys a generation of young men and by extension, young woman. It will continue to evolve to find new ways to keep its audience engaged, new sex acts, new ways to use a woman's body when men get bored with the sex acts on tap now, expectations of more and more extreme sex from woman. 

I have a son and I am so concerned for him. Will he be one of the addicted ones, will he have cravings that no woman will want to fulfill, will he be alone in a room sitting in front of a computer screen with 3D glasses and a neural device invented by pornographers to make the experience more life like, will he visit paid workers because he can't get a woman to do what he craves, will he live a life of perpetual longings and sexual cravings and misery? Will he be one of the angry frustrated, resentful men who can't get their perfectly good and willing wife to do exactly what he wants? 

There is one poster on this board whose writes about his relentless pursuit of porn sex with his wife.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...m-if-your-wife-becomes-porn-star-bedroom.html 

Right now he may represent a low percentage of men but what if he becomes the average man? I want to cry for my daughter if this is the type of thing she will have to deal with. 

A sizable proportion of woman can turn off their sexual desire under the right or should I say wrong circumstances, what if men become so unattractive sexually with their demands that many woman just opt out. 

I hope porn will go the way of morphine, which was widely available and used extensively in the US for over 100 yrs that is, until it's devastating effects were realized. 

So we wait. Thanks Syrum.

PS: Got a good man ladies? Hug and love him frequently, he deserves it and so do you.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Grayson said:


> Enchanted.
> 
> The Princess Bride.
> 
> ...


Gray is this a fair argument? 

Is one persons concern about the problems in one sector of society negated because there are problems they are not addressing? Are we required to make a list of all the wrongs in society to be able to select to do what we see as our part in one small segment? 

If every one of the haves in our society selected one have-not segment to assist, many of our societies ills would be solved. We each do our part. Look at the tremendous work the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation does, addressing the problem of child sexual abuse, a big problem in our society, is not the mission. Does that make what the foundation does invalid? 

Let not use this common but spurious argument to avoid discussing the problem of porn or any other. It seems like the last resort of a person who knows he/she is hopelessly without an effective counter so throws the preverbal chair. 

There are a myriad of competing evils in society, but there are enough people to right them, if they choose. Don't point a finger if you are not doing your part. 

I challenge you - what are you doing about the abuse and use of and abuse of athletes, mostly male, in collage and professional sports?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Dog's Axiom of technology states: Anything that can be used for sex and anything else, will be used for sex.


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## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Gray is this a fair argument?
> 
> Is one persons concern about the problems in one sector of society negated because there are problems they are not addressing? Are we required to make a list of all the wrongs in society to be able to select to do what we see as our part in one small segment?
> 
> ...


Thank you Catherine 

I was just about to write something along the same lines but couldn't get the words out of my head.


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

Grayson said:


> But I think it's disingenuous to automatically ascribe sinister motives to someone for viewing porn.


I didn't say it's sinister. I just said it can be unhealthy.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Dog's Axiom of technology states: Anything that can be used for sex and anything else, will be used for sex.


But - that doesn't make it right.

Just because it can, doesn't mean it should.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Gray is this a fair argument?
> 
> Is one persons concern about the problems in one sector of society negated because there are problems they are not addressing? Are we required to make a list of all the wrongs in society to be able to select to do what we see as our part in one small segment?
> 
> ...


That's a fair question, Catherine. And, yes...I think my argument is a fair one in the context it was intended, which may not have come across as clearly as I'd hoped. If so, then I'll accept the blame for that. In trying to be as concise as possible (which probably has you saying, "That's him being CONCISE? I don't want to see him get wordy!"), clarity of purpose may have been sacrificed.

So, let me start by saying that I don't expect my words to suddenly make Syrum, you, or anyone else who doesn't like porn to sit up and say, "By golly, I was wrong! I LOVES me some porn!" Rather, I would hope that they make some who may not like porn realize that the genre itself is not the insidious demon that some make it out to be. That many of the elements that make it abhorrent to them are also present in other, more socially accepted forms of entertainment. To realize that many, if not most, of the audience are fully capable of separating the fantasy of porn from the reality of life as easily as they can separate the fantasy of their favorite movie, tv show, novel, etc from real life. To acknowledge that while some may indeed suffer a negative impact on their life and/or relationship due to viewing porn, that the same risk can be run by becoming too heavily invested and immersed in ANY form of entertainment.

So, that's where I feel it's a fair argument. Also in part because, from Syrum's stated viewpoint, all is black and white, win no grays...all one extreme or the other, with no middle ground. Thus, at best, I expect lip service to the football example, for instance, with it dismissed with words along the lines of, "It doesn't compare to what happens in porn." And, y'know...that's her opinion on the matter. She's entitled to it. But when someone states opinion as absolute fact, they should expect to have those "facts" refuted. I'll grant, she's linked to articles that back up her opinions. I could just as easily cherry pick articles to back up my stance while ignoring those that counter it like she has, too.

The picture painted in many an "anti-porn" arguments is one of a world that, to go deeper into illustration, is similar to the world presented in so many tv commercials: a world in which the dim-witted male of the species is helpless to resist any and all outside influences on his weak-willed mind...that he can't grasp simple concepts, and his every thought an deed is led by his penis. I think we can both agree that, while some may fit that description, it doesn't fit the vast majority of men. The added wrinkle, with the "anti-porn" argument is that, in such a world, anyone viewing porn will automatically devalue women, insist upon their partner trying any and every act they see, explicitly supports human trafficking and the exploitation of women, dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!

Bu we don't live in that world...there are more grays than blacks and whites...most of us reside in middle ground rather than on the extremes. I would say that the so-called "porn problem" is really a "person problem." That is to say, the problem lies with the person viewing as opposed to being inherent to the genre. Case in point: the young co-star of the sitcom "My Sister Sam" was murdered, and the defense tried to lay some of the blame on the U2 song "Exit.". I'm a die-hard U2 fan, and the album with "Exit" ("The Joshua Tree") may just be my all-time favorite album. As such, I've heard "Exit" more than my fair share of times. Great song. Even better performed live. But it's never made me want to want to kill a teenaged tv actress. Or anyone else for that matter. That's a long way of reiterating my point: the problem of feeling "entitled" to an act one sees in porn is a result of that person already having a sense of entitlement.

(See, I warned you about when I stop being concise. ;-) )

To your larger point in this post, I'm not suggesting that anyone has the time, resources or ability to do it all and change the world. I asked the pro football question of Syrum specifically because, being more socially acceptable than porn, I doubt she - or anyone - has given much thought, especially in the context of this discussion, to how it is a male equivalent to the abuse and disposability ascribed to women in the porn industry; probably doesn't think twice about friends, family, fiancé sitting down to enjoy the big game.

What am I doing to correct that? Using what I, as a consumer, have as the strongest weapon in my arsenal: my wallet. Since I don't like football in the first place, it's easy enough to not knowingly support it. With porn - or anything else - I try to support what I like, hope what I like is not guilty of offensive conduct "behind the scenes," and if I learn that it is guilty of such, withdraw my support.

To sum up (I hear everyone cheering that I'm reaching the end of the post):
--Porn: not inherently evil
--People who enjoy porn: not inherently evil
--People who don't enjoy porn: not inherently evil

I have no problem with someone who doesn't like what I like (and vice versa). I DO, however, have a problem with someone who tells me that my personal tastes and experiences are wrong and/or impossible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

OOE said:


> I didn't say it's sinister. I just said it can be unhealthy.


The implication was that, in your example, a 45 year old is immediately mentally placing himself in the scene for the purpose of (again, mentally) "degrading" a younger woman, hence my use of sinister.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

Grayson said:


> The implication was that, in your example, a 45 year old is immediately mentally placing himself in the scene for the purpose of (again, mentally) "degrading" a younger woman, hence my use of sinister.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually my implication was that the director shot the scene so that the viewer would imagine himself there. My statement was that it could be unhealthy if a 45 year old man (my age, that's why I picked it) continually imagines himself doing demeaning sexual things to young girls.

I'm sure most men who watch don't do it for the purpose of imagining themselves in those circumstances. They just watch to "get off." However, the effect is there, and it can lead to unhealthy expectations.

My mother sometimes gets on an Oprah kick. When she does, she watches a LOT of Oprah. During these periods, she becomes more Oprah-like in her world view. While that certainly isn't her purpose for watching the "O" channel (I'm sure she'd say it's entertainment), it tends to be the unintended result.

Grayson, you're not bad because you watch/view porn. I'm just saying that porn isn't as innocuous as you'd like for it to sound.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

OOE said:


> Actually my implication was that the director shot the scene so that the viewer would imagine himself there.


I agree that's one reason many shots are framed in such a way. Another is that the average heterosexual male - which we agree is the current primary audience for porn - just plain isn't interested in seeing the guy in the picture. Which presents a bit of a problem if the shot is intended to include explicit sex.



> My statement was that it could be unhealthy if a 45 year old man (my age, that's why I picked it) continually imagines himself doing demeaning sexual things to young girls.


I appreciate that you use the word "could," as it acknowledges that such an outcome (considering the term "unhealthy" seems a bit vague in the context used) is not a fait acompli.



> I'm sure most men who watch don't do it for the purpose of imagining themselves in those circumstances. They just watch to "get off."


By George, I think you've got it!



> However, the effect is there, and it can lead to unhealthy expectations.


The effect "is" there in the sense that it does happen for some people. Which, again, is not unique to porn. The same can be said for "unhealthy expectations."



> My mother sometimes gets on an Oprah kick. When she does, she watches a LOT of Oprah. During these periods, she becomes more Oprah-like in her world view. While that certainly isn't her purpose for watching the "O" channel (I'm sure she'd say it's entertainment), it tends to be the unintended result.


Which goes back to my earlier points, vis a vis immersion in any form of media/entertainment without continuing to take a mental accounting of oneself. At the same time, I would point out that, with the possible exception of lighter fare like celebrity interviews, The format, structure and content of Oprah's show is designed to distribute factual information and/or influence the opinion of her audience. This is in direct contrast to works of fiction, up to and including porn.



> Grayson, you're not bad because you watch/view porn. I'm just saying that porn isn't as innocuous as you'd like for it to sound.


It's no more or less innocuous than any other form or genre of entertainment. Ultimately, the impact it has on the viewer rests with the viewer. I can understand why some might feel it carries more impact due to the stigma attached to the genre/content being less socially acceptable. I don't subscribe to that belief.

Along those lines, in the 50's, Dr Frederic Wertham concluded in his book "Seduction of the Innocent" that there was a direct causal relationship between reading comic books and juvenile delinquency. Would you agree that, at least in hindsight, that his conclusions were dubious at best?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Grayson said:


> Enchanted.
> 
> The Princess Bride.
> 
> ...


Really having sex with someone is really having sex with someone, it is still not comparable with anything you have listed.

Often women making adult films are harmed, they now have Dr's on set because in the words of producers and directors who make them, the women get tore up bad.

Yes I have an issue with football, I don't watch, would discourage my child from playing it and don't think it's healthy at all to hero worship people for playing with a ball, however that is still not comparable to porn for various reasons.

The facts are that young girls are not watching romantic comedies at the speed with which people are watching porn, Are men in romantic comedies, exposed, humiliated and used in the most intimate manner possible? Are they displayed like pieces of meat? I really don't think so, even though the lead may be handsome, he is usually seen as a multi dimensional being and is still a fictional character. 

I do agree that some women and girls may have an idea of prince charming, but your first boyfriend usually knocks that idea right out of you, and i'm sure if you are a woman who's husband is addicted to porn you are under no such illusions.

Moreover it is an issue that some girls seem to think that men should be perfect, and however most women I know are reasonable about it, and I have not seen even one thread on here where women are complaining about not finding a real prince. I do however see post after post from men expecting porn sex. Funny that! 

Even so i do not disagree that disney has a lot to answer for. I would be happy for girls to grow up with no such illusions. However it would also seem that romantic comedies more and more include your average guy, and do not show some unatainable cool guy, get it right every time knows just what to say and looks like some god. instead they cast some lovable bumbling man who makes a lot of mistakes, he just gets it right in the end.

Most importantly: the lead female is not really marrying him they are not really living happily ever after, but in porn the woman is still literally F^%$ed. big difference.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Grayson said:


> So, let me start by saying that I don't expect my words to suddenly make Syrum, you, or anyone else who doesn't like porn to sit up and say, "By golly, I was wrong! I LOVES me some porn!" Rather, I would hope that they make some who may not like porn realize that the genre itself is not the insidious demon that some make it out to be. That many of the elements that make it abhorrent to them are also present in other, more socially accepted forms of entertainment. To realize that many, if not most, of the audience are fully capable of separating the fantasy of porn from the reality of life as easily as they can separate the fantasy of their favorite movie, tv show, novel, etc from real life. To acknowledge that while some may indeed suffer a negative impact on their life and/or relationship due to viewing porn, that the same risk can be run by becoming too heavily invested and immersed in ANY form of entertainment.


I believe the pornification of women has spilled over into other areas of entertainment, so in that sense you would be right.
However the sex in porn is not a fantasy to that woman, to that woman it is real, again as per my example earlier, fantasy is fantasy and real sex is real sex, you are watching real sex on screen, prostitution filmed!



> So, that's where I feel it's a fair argument. Also in part because, from Syrum's stated viewpoint, all is black and white, win no grays...all one extreme or the other, with no middle ground. Thus, at best, I expect lip service to the football example, for instance, with it dismissed with words along the lines of, "It doesn't compare to what happens in porn." And, y'know...that's her opinion on the matter. She's entitled to it. But when someone states opinion as absolute fact, they should expect to have those "facts" refuted. I'll grant, she's linked to articles that back up her opinions. I could just as easily cherry pick articles to back up my stance while ignoring those that counter it like she has, too.


I haven't cherry picked anything, I have read widely and I believe that most people who would watch or who regularly consume porn cannot look at this issue objectively nor view data nor suffering of women objectively because they are too far invested in making it right in their mind, so they do not have to feel the weight of their decisions. I do believe the widespread abuse of women is obvious when you want to really look at it, and the degradation of women is apparent. 




> The picture painted in many an "anti-porn" arguments is one of a world that, to go deeper into illustration, is similar to the world presented in so many tv commercials: a world in which the dim-witted male of the species is helpless to resist any and all outside influences on his weak-willed mind...that he can't grasp simple concepts, and his every thought an deed is led by his penis. I think we can both agree that, while some may fit that description, it doesn't fit the vast majority of men. The added wrinkle, with the "anti-porn" argument is that, in such a world, anyone viewing porn will automatically devalue women, insist upon their partner trying any and every act they see, explicitly supports human trafficking and the exploitation of women, dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!


You know I really feel that the comment "mass hysteria" is uncalled for, however when you look at it, I don't understand from a human rights perspective why people don't deeply care about this issue. (I do really understand why it just astounds me).

The point as has allready been made, is not that porn is leading droves of men to run out raping women, more that the social fabric of society is changed forever due to porn, the sex industry and the pornification of women in general. This leads to a social shift in which women bear the brunt of the negative effects of porn. So it's fine to sit pretty really with your manly pants on froma position of manly privilege, using women for your orgasmic benifits, but I know women who feel the effects of this, I have heard stories from my teenage daughter and her friends, of treatment they have received by young men who seem to think they have a right to treat women however they wish, and the graphic sexual nature of their throwaway comments would astound any decent person. I have personaly felt the effects of this. I am a woman and this is a fact to me.



> Bu we don't live in that world...there are more grays than blacks and whites...most of us reside in middle ground rather than on the extremes. I would say that the so-called "porn problem" is really a "person problem." That is to say, the problem lies with the person viewing as opposed to being inherent to the genre. Case in point: the young co-star of the sitcom "My Sister Sam" was murdered, and the defense tried to lay some of the blame on the U2 song "Exit.". I'm a die-hard U2 fan, and the album with "Exit" ("The Joshua Tree") may just be my all-time favorite album. As such, I've heard "Exit" more than my fair share of times. Great song. Even better performed live. But it's never made me want to want to kill a teenaged tv actress. Or anyone else for that matter. That's a long way of reiterating my point: the problem of feeling "entitled" to an act one sees in porn is a result of that person already having a sense of entitlement.


The problem is that the over all view and expectations of women has changed, if you are not a woman maybe you don't care and don't realize it but it absolutely has. So you having an expectation and right to view porn in such a way is even hugely different to what would have been socially acceptable 60 years ago. 





> To your larger point in this post, I'm not suggesting that anyone has the time, resources or ability to do it all and change the world. I asked the pro football question of Syrum specifically because, being more socially acceptable than porn, I doubt she - or anyone - has given much thought, especially in the context of this discussion, to how it is a male equivalent to the abuse and disposability ascribed to women in the porn industry; probably doesn't think twice about friends, family, fiancé sitting down to enjoy the big game.


Actually I don't watch it and have issues with all levels of exploitation, I just see them as being on a sliding scale, and there is no way that football is creating unrealistic expectations on all young men and changing the way women view them. However football is something we can discuss further in another thread if you would like make one and I will give you all the reasons why I do not support football.



> What am I doing to correct that? Using what I, as a consumer, have as the strongest weapon in my arsenal: my wallet. Since I don't like football in the first place, it's easy enough to not knowingly support it. With porn - or anything else - I try to support what I like, hope what I like is not guilty of offensive conduct "behind the scenes," and if I learn that it is guilty of such, withdraw my support.


Again different ball park and you know it, if however women were downloading football games like porn and expecting men to look like football players and act like them in the bedroom you may be on to something there. It would also be a good comparison if the men playing were paid less, and socially outcast. It seems to me that most people in our culture any way, aspire to be football players, would proudly want their sons to play it, and in fact hero worship them. Not to mention most people play football in public and allways have, it is not something that is usually done in private, it is not an intimate private activity that connects two people. It is a social activity, that bonds groups of people. (I have more to say about why it's not comparable but you get it).


> To sum up (I hear everyone cheering that I'm reaching the end of the post):
> --Porn: not inherently evil


Disagree, I would say mostly evil. 


> --People who enjoy porn: not inherently evil


I don't think they are either, nor do I think the women in porn are evil. However I do believe most people do not realize how damaging porn is, because it has been normalized, and the pornification of women has been normalized, and if you oppose this apparently you are an hysterical being, instead of someone who actually might care about human rights and having really good sex.


> --People who don't enjoy porn: not inherently evil


true


> I have no problem with someone who doesn't like what I like (and vice versa). I DO, however, have a problem with someone who tells me that my personal tastes and experiences are wrong and/or impossible.


I don't know why:scratchhead:, I happen to like it when people point out that something i am doing may be directly contributing to the suffering of others, particularly when I have a choice in it and can make a difference. I don't want people to be silenced on such issues for fear of upsetting other peoples delicate sensibilities. Also no ones personal tastes, or likes and dislikes should come at the expense of 50% of the population. 


I would prefer not to bury my head in the sand, but I guess it's very disheartening because I do view the world quite harshly at times as I just can't understand the selfishness, and what I view as deliberate and convenient ignorance.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Well, as the responses get longer, it gets tougher to compose them properly in stolen quiet moments at work on a cell phone, so it's computer time at home....



Syrum said:


> Really having sex with someone is really having sex with someone, it is still not comparable with anything you have listed.


It really is unfortunate that the view of the forest is blocked by all those darned trees, isn't it?

Who has said that the sex acts in porn aren't real? You're confusing some concepts here. (Intentionally? Unintentionally? I dunno.) They are real sex acts depicting a fictional story (as flimsy as the story may be). By the same token, for the most part, we see actors in mainstream tv & movies perform "real" acts to depict a fictional story all the time. I'm not sure how you expect any fictional story to be filmed by live performers without that happening.



> Often women making adult films are harmed, they now have Dr's on set because in the words of producers and directors who make them, the women get tore up bad.


I see...so, because a form of entertainment can and sometimes (we'll even say "frequently") does involve the risk of bodily harm, it should be done away with then, correct?

Quick! Shut down production on action flicks. They have doctors on set, as well. Heck, for that matter, shut down production of Mythbusters, as they frequently have doctors on set, as well.



> The facts are that young girls are not watching romantic comedies at the speed with which people are watching porn,


Very nice...almost missed what you did there, trying to shift to ONLY romantic comedies, avoiding the fairy tales (and their modern descendants) that were part of the original point.

And, in response, I have one word for you: Twilight.

Young girls by the millions (not to mention their mothers) are racing to the theaters (and bookstores) to get their latest fix of the teenage girl mooning over the abusive vampire boyfriend and the shirtless werewolf. According to Twilight, true love is all about having an abusive boyfriend, obsessing over him, marrying him so he can ultimately kill you to "save your life" during childbirth and having his rival for your affections take, as a consolation prize, falling in love with your infant child.

Weekly doses of Grey's Anatomy, with "McDreamy" and "McSteamy?" I think it gets decent ratings...enough to have garnered a spin-off.



> Are men in romantic comedies, exposed, humiliated and used in the most intimate manner possible? Are they displayed like pieces of meat?


Some are and can be, most certainly. For my money, for example, that sounds like an apt description of Jason Segal in the opening scene of "Forgetting Sarah Marshall." In fact, while I grant it's been some time since I saw it, the only nudity in FSM was Segal's. While I'm not certain I've seen any of his other movies, director/producer Judd Apatow has said that he intends to include male frontal nudity as often as possible.

I'd also say that shirtless werewolf is most definitely displayed like a piece of meat. Each time a new Twilight movie comes out, I see posts in various online outlets from young girls and middle-aged women alike, fawning about his body.

My own wife loves every chance the new Hawaii Five-0 series takes to get star Alex O'Loughlin's shirt off (happens about as frequenly as they put co-star Grace park in a bikini). She also selected shots of Glee's Chord Overstreet and Harry Shum Jr showing off their abs to include on the cover of a custom Glee music compilation we put together. 



> I really don't think so, even though the lead may be handsome, he is usually seen as a multi dimensional being and is still a fictional character.


See, I'd have to disagree that ANY character in most romantic comedies can be seen as a multi-dimensional being. In many (most?) romantic comedies, the characters are interchangeable from one to the other, walking through a rote set of circumstances. And, yes...that same description can be applied to porn, no doubt about it. For the record, the actors in porn (with the possible exception of amateur porn) are also portraying fictional characters, even if sometimes fictionalized versions of themselves (in much the same way that Jerry Seinfeld played a fictionalized version of himself on his sitcom, or Jennifer Grey played a fictionalized version of herself on "It's Like, You Know").



> Moreover it is an issue that some girls seem to think that men should be perfect, and however most women I know are reasonable about it, and I have not seen even one thread on here where women are complaining about not finding a real prince. I do however see post after post from men expecting porn sex. Funny that!


Let's define "complaining about not finding a real prince."

Let's also define "expecting porn sex."

Then we'll come back to this, 'kay?



> Even so i do not disagree that disney has a lot to answer for. I would be happy for girls to grow up with no such illusions. However it would also seem that romantic comedies more and more include your average guy, and do not show some unatainable cool guy, get it right every time knows just what to say and looks like some god. instead they cast some lovable bumbling man who makes a lot of mistakes, he just gets it right in the end.


Jake Gyllenhall is an "average guy" and not "some unattainable cool guy?" Hugh Jackman is "some lovable bumbling man?" Hugh Grant? Mel Gibson? Patrick Dempsey? Robert Pattinson? (Note that we're still expanding back out from romantic comedies to the original notion.)



> Most importantly: the lead female is not really marrying him they are not really living happily ever after, but in porn the woman is still literally F^%$ed. big difference.


Not that big a difference, really. Again...real acts of a fictionalized story, that the actors have chosen to do. Some people can compartmentalize and separate sex and true intimacy. Some can't. Some think they can, and find that they can't.

Would I be correct in concluding that you agree that a deep kiss is intimate? Mainstream actors engage in real kisses all the time, without it truly being intimate, then go home to their significant others, kiss them and mean it. It's part of the job...interacting with another actor to convince the audience of the illusion you're presenting. The difference with (hardcore) porn is that the actors are showing that the sexual act is real and not simulated. In the case of both the kiss and sex, the job of the actors is to convince the audience that not only is the act real, but that it is genuine when it isn't, if you catch the difference. (And, yeah...I've seen porn where they fail to convince that it's genuine...and don't find it stimulating.)

Once again, though, if your yardstick for finding something completely objectionable is the potential capacity for real, lasting harm, let's ask Brandon Lee or Heath Ledger's families if Hollywood should be shut down, shall we?



Syrum said:


> I believe the pornification of women has spilled over into other areas of entertainment, so in that sense you would be right.


Please elaborate on "pornification." I suspect I know what you mean, but with the post long already, I'd prefer to be sure before potentially going off on an unrelated tangent.



> However the sex in porn is not a fantasy to that woman, to that woman it is real, again as per my example earlier, fantasy is fantasy and real sex is real sex, you are watching real sex on screen, prostitution filmed!


Trees and forest again. Once again, the sexual act in porn is, indeed, not faked. Many mainstream actors also do their own stunts. In both cases, this is done to present a fictional story. As for "prostitution filmed," is it prostitution if both parties are being paid to engage in the act (genuine question)? For the sake of discussion, let's say that it is. As the industry is not "underground," production companies are required by law to not only keep records of proof of age on file but to include a statement of where those records are kept making them readily available for all (including law enforcement), and the production companies are not being prosecuted for production, then it would be legalized prostitution, such as exists in Nevada.



> I haven't cherry picked anything,


My apologies. I've missed the links you've posted to the articles that run counter to your stance. Please repost them.



> I have read widely and I believe that most people who would watch or who regularly consume porn cannot look at this issue objectively


Would you also not say, given how you've expressed it here, that you cannot look at this issue objectively? You've made up your mind, and no amount of evidence - anecdotal or direct - would appear to sway you.



> nor view data nor suffering of women objectively because they are too far invested in making it right in their mind, so they do not have to feel the weight of their decisions. I do believe the widespread abuse of women is obvious when you want to really look at it, and the degradation of women is apparent.


As I've said more than once, I fully comprehend that it can and does happen...but disagree that it is the norm, nor necessarily "widespread."

I have accepted and acknowledged the existence of negative aspects, connotations and outcomes.

You seem unable to accept and acknowledge even the possibility that said negative aspects, connotations and outcomes are not universal and unavoidable.



> You know I really feel that the comment "mass hysteria" is uncalled for,


It was, you know, simply a case of quoting the movie Ghostbusters. When making a long post, as that previous post, I tend to pepper some of the statements with a bit of humor, so as not to bludgeon the reader with a wall of text. Seeing as how that seemed to escape you, I've foregone that practice this time around.

For the record, my statement in this thread was:

"The added wrinkle, with the "anti-porn" argument is that, in such a world, anyone viewing porn will automatically devalue women, insist upon their partner trying any and every act they see, explicitly supports human trafficking and the exploitation of women, *dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!*" (bolded for emphasis)

Meanwhile, the referenced line is:

Dr. Peter Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?
Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of God type stuff.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.
Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!
Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...
Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave!
Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, *dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!* 

I was making reference to the ever-steepening slippery slope of consequences that you put forth.



> however when you look at it, I don't understand from a human rights perspective why people don't deeply care about this issue. (I do really understand why it just astounds me).


In assuming that anyone who enjoys porn thinks nothing about such issues, you assume that they agree with you that these issues are universal and inevitable throughout the industry (and the audience). Your assumption would be incorrect.



> The point as has allready been made, is not that porn is leading droves of men to run out raping women, more that the social fabric of society is changed forever due to porn, the sex industry and the pornification of women in general.


Now, even though I'm still not 100% sure what you mean by "pornification of women," I'm still going to touch on this subject in more general terms.

In those general terms, I would say that removing the stigma/taboo from sex/porn can ultimately be a good thing. Remove that taboo...be more open with sexuality, and there's a chance for healthier views. Instead, as a society, we hide anything sexual in a dark corner...many want to not only remove any form of substantive sex education from schools, but also ignore the subject at home. ("Don't dare tell the children about responsible sex! If you do, they'll want to do it!" while at the same time saying, "I can't and won't talk to my child about...THAT!")

By way of illustration, there's a song by a sadly defunct local band, titled "I Was Confused (About the Television Set)" that have lyrics that I think are very apropos for our society:

"Well, I watched this show just the other night,
And I must say something was not right.
How come people on television's weird in the head.

Well, they won't show sex, but they show a lot of killin'
I guess it must be better to show blood spillin'
Than to let little Junior see two naked people in bed."



> This leads to a social shift in which women bear the brunt of the negative effects of porn. So it's fine to sit pretty really with your manly pants on froma position of manly privilege, using women for your orgasmic benifits,


"Manly privilege?" Since my wife enjoys porn, as well, is she also in a position of "manly privilege?" And, once again, I would say that the "negative effects of porn" are more accurately described as "negative effects of a dysfunctional personality."



> but I know women who feel the effects of this,


And, I remind you once again, I have never said that no women encounter negative effects related to porn. What I have said is that those negative effects have their roots, not in the porn genre itself, but in existing issues within the people involved.



> I have heard stories from my teenage daughter and her friends, of treatment they have received by young men who seem to think they have a right to treat women however they wish, and the graphic sexual nature of their throwaway comments would astound any decent person. I have personaly felt the effects of this. I am a woman and this is a fact to me.


So, you and your daughter have felt the effects of males who have an over-developed sense of entitlement. I am sorry to hear this. Porn does not cause such over-developed sense of entitlement. It may inform how that sense of entitlement is directed...I've agreed with that many times in this thread. But, it is not the cause. Many people enjoy porn without such a feeling of entitlement. Meanwhile, many have an inflated sense of entitlement without the involvement of porn.



> The problem is that the over all view and expectations of women has changed,


The overall expectation of PEOPLE has changed.



> Actually I don't watch it and have issues with all levels of exploitation, I just see them as being on a sliding scale, and there is no way that football is creating unrealistic expectations on all young men and changing the way women view them. However football is something we can discuss further in another thread if you would like make one and I will give you all the reasons why I do not support football.


Although I will express my pleasant surprise that you have considered the issue before, there's the predicted lip service....



> Again different ball park and you know it, if however women were downloading football games like porn and expecting men to look like football players and act like them in the bedroom you may be on to something there. It would also be a good comparison if the men playing were paid less, and socially outcast. It seems to me that most people in our culture any way, aspire to be football players, would proudly want their sons to play it, and in fact hero worship them. Not to mention most people play football in public and allways have, it is not something that is usually done in private, it is not an intimate private activity that connects two people. It is a social activity, that bonds groups of people. (I have more to say about why it's not comparable but you get it).


...and there's the predicted offhand dismissal of "it's not the same thing."



> Disagree, I would say mostly evil.


I'm shocked...shocked, I say.

I would also say that it's ludicrous to condemn an entire genre for offenses committed by a (small?) portion of its industry.



> I don't think they are either, nor do I think the women in porn are evil. However I do believe most people do not realize how damaging porn is, because it has been normalized, and the pornification of women has been normalized, and if you oppose this apparently you are an hysterical being, instead of someone who actually might care about human rights and having really good sex.


And, once again, you refuse to acknowledge even the possibility that one can enjoy porn AND care about human rights AND care about having really good sex. These conditions are not mutually exclusive.



> I don't know why:scratchhead:, I happen to like it when people point out that something i am doing may be directly contributing to the suffering of others, particularly when I have a choice in it and can make a difference.


Let me know when you point something like that out, instead of dismissing the opposing POV's personal experiences as being impossible simply because they don't fit within the confines of the POV you've selected for yourself.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

> Let me know when you point something like that out, instead of dismissing the opposing POV's personal experiences as being impossible simply because they don't fit within the confines of the POV you've selected for yourself.


Actually Grayson why don't you?

And good to see you picked and chose what you wanted from what I posted. Did not directly answer much and provided no links nor proof of your own.

Of course this suits your agenda, and that's fine. I have come to expect it.

Prove to me porn is harmless and prove to me how good the women have it. Prove to me that it does not contribute negatively to the way in which women are treated. Show me how it is so, because as you talk of lip service, I'm sick of people paying it to the porn industry, while not being able to show me any proof of how much this benefits, women, relationships, sex lives and men. 

Shine me a light on the overwhelming benefits of porn.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

> "When you suffer from childhood sexual abuse or were severely abused as a child, you usually repress those memories. You are unable to say, 'I am doing this because I was abused as a child and this is all I know how to do. This is all I know how to feel.' I think a lot of the women are in denial and they don't realize what post-traumatic stress disorder is. You either totally go a whole different direction and turn your life around and get as far away from that abuse as you can – or you re-live the experience, and a lot of these women are re-living what they know how to feel."
> 
> - ex-porn performer Carol Smith, in Not For Sale
> 
> ...


On the childhoods of porn stars


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Grayson have you listened to these interviews with Jersey Jaxin?

YouTube - Jersey Jaxin on Why She Quit Porn (Part 1)

YouTube - Jersey Jaxin on Why She Quit Porn (Part 2)

I'm sure she's the exception.
Sounds like rape to me.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

> "Look at the industry’s biggest star, Jenna Jameson, who appears to control her business life. However in her book she reports that she was raped as a teenager and describes the ways in which men in her life pimped her. Her desperation for money also comes through when she tried to get a job as a stripper but looked too young -- she went into a bathroom and pulled off her braces with pliers. She also describes drug abuse and laments the many friends in the industry she lost to drugs. And this is the woman said to have the most power in the pornography industry."
> -- Gail Dines and Robert Jensen, Article Pornography is a Left Issue (2005).
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.againstpornography.org/jennapornstarmyth.html


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBtL...lla+donna+intervoiew+porn&aq=f&has_verified=1

Also worth watching part one and two.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

I think someone has a vendetta....


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Bigwayneo said:


> I think someone has a vendetta....


What an interesting response. Some would call it a Strawman I believe.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

True


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

:rofl:


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

I know this thread has been dead for a while. But I just watched the Ben and Teller: Bullsh*t! episode (number 21) on porn and I was wondering if anybody else has, and what there opinion is towards it would be?


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