# Where is the line?



## Baggage (Feb 27, 2014)

Let's say my husband is texting a girl and the conversation is completely innocuous, innocent, and just chatter. But to his buddies he is talking about how much he would like to do sexually to her. He doesn't seem to remember I can hear what he says while I'm in the living room and he in the basement or that his messages are open to me. Is that just dudes being stupid or is it infidelity or just the beginnings of infidelity?


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## john1068 (Nov 12, 2013)

Baggage said:


> Let's say my husband is texting a girl and the conversation is completely innocuous, innocent, and just chatter. But to his buddies he is talking about how much he would like to do sexually to her. He doesn't seem to remember I can hear what he says while I'm in the living room and he in the basement or that his messages are open to me. Is that just dudes being stupid or is it infidelity or just the beginnings of infidelity?


Your H is walking a very thin line, and he's crossed it. Affairs start with desire (which he's expressed ), then the trial balloons are tested (starts with innocous, "innocent" texts), and then grows to incrementally more bold, flirtatious and finally graphic.

Shut that schist down right quick.

your H is a frigging bonehead...

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Your husband shouldn't be sending innocent text messages to another woman that he is fantasizing about "doing". 

This can very well be the beginnings of an EA. You need to shut this down now. People differ on opinions about having an opposite-sexed friend on this site. Most are against it for the reason that boundaries eventually blur, feelings and attractions grow and then it leads to an affair. 

I am neutral about opposite sexed friends when it comes to what other marrieds think is okay but I will say this. If you're attracted and fantasizing with someone, then they shouldn't be your friend if you're married. That is just asking for trouble.


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## Baggage (Feb 27, 2014)

And how does one "shut it down." Without it turning into a horrible fight or them getting defensive. What if they refuse to see anything wrong with it?


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

He's already cheating.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I think it's just guy braggadocio, and means nothing. The texts were innocent, and it they stay that way, it's all just hot air. The only question is why he is texting her? What is their connection?


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## Baggage (Feb 27, 2014)

She is his best friend's wife's best friend from his home town. They've never met in person.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

How would he like it if you were texting 'innocently' with a friend who you declared you would be happy to have sex with?

Ask him that.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I think it's just guy braggadocio, and means nothing. The texts were innocent, and it they stay that way, it's all just hot air. The only question is why he is texting her? What is their connection?


Consider the source of the above advice: Married but Happy is in an open marriage.

My advice, however, comes from a person whose husband cheated. From what you posted, it sounds like he's talking in your own house (in person or on the phone) to his buddies about what "he would like to do sexually" to this girl that he has been texting. 

He is showing a lack of understanding of appropriate boundaries, he's on a slippery slope, and to talk like that under YOUR roof is extremely disrespectful - your home is supposed to be your haven. How can it be when you hear your husband talking like that? Not that it would be OK for him to talk like that ANYWHERE, but it shows he doesn't "have your back." He's not your "protector," not someone you can count on EVEN when you're not around to always think and speak highly of you and always show how much he respects you. He's not on YOUR team. He's on his OWN team, and he's happy to forget that you exist when your back is turned. How can you trust someone like that to turn down an opportunity if it presented itself?

One cheating test is, would you do it if your spouse was standing right there? According to that test, he is already cheating. Please let him know you are hurt by this behavior.


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## john1068 (Nov 12, 2013)

Baggage said:


> And how does one "shut it down." Without it turning into a horrible fight or them getting defensive. What if they refuse to see anything wrong with it?


You shut it down by not being afraid of causing a fight, and tell him that his behavior is unacceptable. He's way out of line. Draw some boundaries...they WILL get defensive...Her behavior isn't your issue. HIS behavior IS.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

Baggage said:


> And how does one "shut it down." Without it turning into a horrible fight or them getting defensive. What if they refuse to see anything wrong with it?


"it upsets me when you text with her."
if he respects you, he'll shut it down. 
if he gets overly defensive, don't bring it up again and secretly start monitoring his every move.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Baggage said:


> She is his best friend's wife's best friend from his home town. They've never met in person.


And he's never met her in person and he wants to indulge in acts of absolutely earth shattering carnal congress?

Really? Never met her? If so, pictures will have been exchanged, or else how would he know he wants to make the beast with two backs with her?

And that's cheating, IMO.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Baggage said:


> And how does one "shut it down." Without it turning into a horrible fight or them getting defensive. What if they refuse to see anything wrong with it?


You shut it down fight or otherwise. He has to realize when he disrespects you like that it's going to get unpleasant.

You cannot assert boundaries without an immature spouse over-reacting.

You just have to learn to ignore his tantrums and hold your ground.

You have to realize that when he throws a fit that's HIS problem, not YOURS.

He is going to throw a fit like a child most likely, given that he's been acting like one.

Your job is to not worry about the fit and stand your ground on his disrespecting you - THAT is the subject of the conversation. If he throws a fit, you offset that by being calm, keeping on topic, and sticking to the facts : 

Ignore his shouting
Ignore his name calling
Ignore his changing the subject
Ignore his threats
Ignore any teasing
Ignore him accusing you of being "jealous"
Don't let him provoke you into doing any of the above

Just calmnly hold your ground, eventually his tantrum won't get anywhere and he will change strategies.

Make sure he understands that anything HE is going to do legitimizes you doing the same.

This is his test.. if he can't get through this with maturity, you need to realize you have a much bigger problem than texts. You have a man with a serious maturity problem.


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## Baggage (Feb 27, 2014)

Facebook is how he knows what she looks like. She was in his friends wedding last summer but we couldn't attend. From then he and his friends always referred to her as unibrow. Until about two weeks ago. And in the passed week decided to monitoring him. And that kinda makes me sick.

I do feel let down and that trust is broken. I just want to have a mature discussion/fight about it. Not something Jerry Springer style. It's all just so incredibly stupid.


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## Baggage (Feb 27, 2014)

Thank you Allen. That was wonderfully worded.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

1. Many affairs start out very innocent. I would recommend that you get Shirley Glass's book, "More than Just Friends". Read it, and then have a conversation with your husband about having conversations, facebook, etc. contacts with folks of the opposite sex. It should apply to you as well.

2. Guy talk. OK, I am older and even after I married I would not talk this way to my friends. When I was in the Army I would hear it from time to time, about what someone would want to do sexually to someone else, but the group of soldiers I typically hung out with were not smack talkers. Frankly, if I was you and heard your husband talking smack, I would walk right in the room and look at his friends and then him, and say, "You want to F*** Sally (or whatever her name is), you go right ahead and while you are packing your stuff your friends here can all leave, because I will not put up with this foul talk in my house, and you are my husband and you are disrespecting me and I will not put up with it".


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm thinking he is totally disrespecting you, the marriage...his family etc. Guys do talk trash among each other but for this to be an on going topic is just wrong. I also still don't see why he would have an ongoing "friendship" with his best friend's wife's girlfriend. what.....?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Baggage said:


> Facebook is how he knows what she looks like. She was in his friends wedding last summer but we couldn't attend. From then he and his friends always referred to her as unibrow. Until about two weeks ago. And in the passed week decided to monitoring him. And that kinda makes me sick.
> 
> I do feel let down and that trust is broken. I just want to have a mature discussion/fight about it. Not something Jerry Springer style. It's all just so incredibly stupid.


They have probably exchanged nude pictures, too.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> They have probably exchanged nude pictures, too.


I would place heavy monetary bets on that.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

If you are really nervous write out what you want to say word for word.

Practice saying it in the mirror until it feels natural and easy for you to say.

Once you have the discussion and have said that, END the CONVO. Do NOT let him BAIT you into an argument.

You put your foot down 

a. this is disrespectful
b. this hurts me
c. i'd like this to stop
d. you wouldn't appreciate me doing this behind your back
e. stop it now, I am dead serious on this

And exit. Don't let him bait you into a fight about you being jealous or over-reacting.. he is going to bait you.

Just go back to your script and finish it. Once you have said it, it's up to him to think about what you have said and stop the behavior

Do NOT try to get agreement from him if he throws a fit... just say what you have to say and then exit. give him some time to think about what you said.

You may have to let him save some face by NOT pressing him to give in. If you let him have the night to think on it and come to YOU, then he may be a lot more cooperative about it

But you have to assert yourself, don't argue back and forth... just get the script said and close up the convo... go have some take out dinner or something and cool down

WATCH him like a HAWK if he shows any significant resistance because there is a good chance this will go further underground

You may want to alert these other people so they know about this trouble brewing.. they may talk to this "friend" on your behalf and tell her to get lost


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

Baggage said:


> Let's say my husband is texting a girl and the conversation is completely innocuous, innocent, and just chatter. But to his buddies he is talking about how much he would like to do sexually to her. He doesn't seem to remember I can hear what he says while I'm in the living room and he in the basement or that his messages are open to me. Is that just dudes being stupid or is it infidelity or just the beginnings of infidelity?


Just FYI - you are married to a Dic k. thats not guys being guys, thats dix being dix. If my wife ever heard me say that I wanted "do sexuallly" to anyone, she would kick my ass....and id probably tie my own hands behind my back for her.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

The other thought I had is your goal.

Your goal in the conversation is NOT to get his AGREEMENT

Your goal is to be HEARD.

You have to leave it up to HIM to respect you enough to cooperate.

If you have to BROW BEAT him into this then you may as well cut your losses NOW.

Honestly, if he's not having sex with her and he STILL fights you on this then you are better off exiting this situation and finding another guy. Cause if he fights for this chick over you even if he's NOT having sex with her, then there is ZERO chance of you saving your marriage when he's having a full on affair.

And this guy clearly needs some boundaries education.

Who is gonna get him there?

Him?

This is the test.

Your goal is to be HEARD, not to get HIS AGREEMENT.

Once you have said your piece, shut the convo down and exit the room.

Last point : the fact that you are nervous about this is not a good sign here.

To be honest, you should NOT be this apprehensive about a conversation like this. In my opinion EVERY couple should have a healthy conversation about infidelity, theory, practice, ways to treat, avoid, and diagnose... maybe a couple times a month.

My guess is you guys have had ZERO discussions about it at all.

These talks are part of a healthy marriage. If you can't have this talk with him, you don't have much of a marriage.

You are in the right here.

Say what you have to say. Be heard, and then EXIT.

Do NOT let him deflect the conversation elsewhere. Do NOT let him bully you. Do NOT let him turn this into an attack on YOU.

Say what you have to say, be heard, and exit.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Baggage said:


> And how does one "shut it down." Without it turning into a horrible fight or them getting defensive. What if they refuse to see anything wrong with it?


Your husband is very likely to get angry and defensive about it. Especially if he is emotionally invested in her (good chance since he wants to fvck her). Further, especially if he's cheating.

If your husband refuses to see anything wrong with it then he's a selfish d0uche. Marriage is a partnership. If one spouse has a problem, you both do. You might not always agree about the ____ being a problem but out of consideration for one another, you respect your spouse and choose your spouse over anything or anyone that causes trouble.

Which is the harsher reality:

Posting here now, having a fight with your husband which ends contact with this woman. OR Posting here a month from now when you discover nude photo exchanges and sexting on his phone or worse, find out they're having sex?



Baggage said:


> She is his best friend's wife's best friend from his home town. They've never met in person.


All the more reason why he has no business talking to her. So he sees her on Facebook, messages her (have you read their emails/chats on Facebook?) and then they exchange numbers.

This is BEYOND inappropriate. It’s not as if she’s an old childhood friend of his, old colleague or has any connection to his life. She has no business being there.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

happi_g_more2 said:


> Just FYI - you are married to a Dic k. thats not guys being guys, thats dix being dix. If my wife ever heard me say that I wanted "do sexuallly" to anyone, she would kick my ass....and id probably tie my own hands behind my back for her.


I agree. 

I'm not naive, marriage doesn't stop you from being attracted to other people. However, respect for your marriage definitely can (hopefully) control how you handle those (what should be fleeting) attractions. There comes a point and time when you need to grow up and stop talking like a fifteen year old in the locker room. 

All of that talk about what he'd like to do to her sexually is degrading for her (though she's doing a good job at degrading herself right now by talking to a MM). More importantly, it's disrespectful to you as his wife. You want to talk sexual fantasies, talk to your spouse.


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## Pault (Aug 15, 2012)

MMmmm!
This one is good. The relationship as a friend is going in one direction with potential to move across the acceptable boundry marker quickly and easily.

If he using bragging rights to tell his friends whet he'd like to do to her then his mindset has thought out his fantasies already. He mentally had sex with her thus far.

The fact that hes having this type of "intermate" conversation with his buddies where you can hear is (IMO) a massive dose of disrespect. That in itself deserves (a) Your reaction (b)His apologies (c) its stops Now! talk

It will get to the raised voice level without doubt becauase your H is clearly not seeig how improper it is, therefore a discussion of place switching is on the cards.

Then - He stops talking to her. He's gently seeing how far he can push the boundry with her. As stated by one of the guys earlier. He'll test the level each sesson until there are some intimate words used on both sides and then its a "Going to see so and so in the next state havent seen him in years, gotat catch up". The EA goes PA and youve a whole new issue to contend with.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

As a woman in an exclusive relationship on the verge of marriage, I would endeavour to put a stop to this.

1. By gathering enough information that he can't dispute that he has been behaving inappropriately. He may claim that that's the way "just friends" interact but ask him if he would approave of your behaving that way with another man.

2. If he continues his relationship with this woman, then inform her husband about it. 

When you do #2, be prepared for the relationship to collapse. But if you would prefer to have a husband that puts you first, then this should only be a short term inconvenience.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> 2. If he continues his relationship with this woman, then inform her husband about it.


She didn't say anything about the OW being married.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Baggage said:


> And how does one "shut it down." Without it turning into a horrible fight or them getting defensive. What if they refuse to see anything wrong with it?


Why do you worry about them getting all defensive and pissy? Anybody that gets caught committing a bad act gets defensive. That's why they call them the defendant in court and they have a defense lawyer representing them, and they mount a "defense" no matter how egregious the act. I don't understand why a person is scared sh!tless of a rebuttal from their spouse. Would you rather fight or have him crap all over you?
Tell him, or better yet, record what you're hearing and tell him whether he likes it or not, it not only offends you but it hurts you. And if he cannot refrain from such behavior, the message he is sending you is clear.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Anybody that gets caught committing a bad act gets defensive. That's why they call them the defendant in court and they have a defense lawyer representing them, and they mount a "defense" no matter how egregious the act.


Well said!!! :iagree:



ThePheonix said:


> I don't understand why a person is scared sh!tless of a rebuttal from their spouse.


Well, some people don't like conflict. But when your spouse is disrespecting you to this degree, you really have to speak up regardless. Otherwise the disrespect ESCALATES.



ThePheonix said:


> Would you rather fight or have him crap all over you?


I could not have said it more succinct than that. :iagree:



ThePheonix said:


> Tell him, or better yet, record what you're hearing and tell him whether he likes it or not, it not only offends you but it hurts you. And if he cannot refrain from such behavior, the message he is sending you is clear.


He's also disrespecting the OW.

And the OW is also disrespecting you.

There is a lot of disrespect going on here, crap rolls downhill, and you are at the bottom of the hill.

You may not care for conflict, but these two are putting you in a position where it's a matter of your self-respect.

A good husband/boyfriend would NOT be PUTTING you in this position to BEGIN with.

If you do'nt have children yet consider this a test of his merit as a good role model for children. This is gonna show you what kind of man this guy is. It's time for this talk. It's long overdue most likely.


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## Baggage (Feb 27, 2014)

I should have specified. His friends aren't here in the house. They are back in his home state. They talk on headsets over the computer, message on Facebook, or most text on his phone.

I did some research into what all he's told them and and I am so embarrassed and ashamed. We are/were supposed to be moving there in a few months and I don't think I could ever look any of them in the face. How little they must think of me if their friend has no respect for me? They will just be laughing at me the whole time. How am I supposed to build a life there away from my support network of family and friends with this hovering over me?

I confronted him about it. It was a HUGE fight but he said he would stop talking to her. But he didn't. The next day he texted her just as much as usual. So I confronted him again, and he lied and said he hadn't. So I told him to try again and that I knew the truth. He got really mad that his privacy had been breached. I kept asking him questions about her about his conversations with his friends hoping he would tell me the truth. Finally he came clean about it but I had to tell him I had already heard/read everything he had said to her and his friends. Talk continued and in the end he said he would stop and be better and try to fix what had happened. That he was just in a bad place because of his PTSD. As much as my heart wants to believe it my brain keeps saying PTSD doesn't excuse everything. 

That being said he changed his passwords and locked me out of his computer, and guards his phone. This makes me feel even worse. I don't feel like I can trust him and he doesn't want to give me open access to what he does which only makes me feel like he is still doing it and is now just hiding it.

Part of me seriously feels insane. I want to send all the copies I have of what he wrote to his friends to Her, and his parents, and his friends wives. Just so everyone knows what these guys are doing and who they are. But that's so petty. And I may just need to get out before I lose my integrity too.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Baggage said:


> I should have specified. His friends aren't here in the house. They are back in his home state. They talk on headsets over the computer, message on Facebook, or most text on his phone.
> 
> I did some research into what all he's told them and and I am so embarrassed and ashamed. We are/were supposed to be moving there in a few months and I don't think I could ever look any of them in the face. How little they must think of me if their friend has no respect for me? They will just be laughing at me the whole time. How am I supposed to build a life there away from my support network of family and friends with this hovering over me?
> 
> ...


Honey, this is an affair. Sorry.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

He is already in an EA and he is very much disrespecting you. You're supposed to move where the friends and the OW live? I wouldn't agree to that.

Exposure is very good if you want to really stop this. Send the messages between him and his friends to the OW. Let her see what is going on. If she wants to continue after that, then that says an awful lot about her. Ask her what she thinks she is doing texting a married man all day long.

Expose it to your family and friends.

You're afraid now about his reaction, but, seriously, you don't have anything to lose. Either he cleans up his act and the two of you have a marriage, or he doesn't and your marriage doesn't survive the betrayal.

He needs to take the locks off his accounts. He needs to do a lot to make this right.

You should read 'Not Just Friends' by Shirley Glass. This will help you to understand that you shouldn't hesitate where things like this are concerned. He should read it, too, but I doubt he would. His level of disrespect is too great at this point for him to take it seriously.

I know this may seem harsh, B., but you have to show him unequivocally what he has to lose with this continued behavior. You have to take a tough stand.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

He went the exact opposite way he should. He yelled at you for telling him your boundaries, lied, then decided to hide everything from you so he could keep doing it. And he IS still doing it. Promise.

If you go forward and move to this new location where the girl is and these toxic friends, it will not end well for you.

We've been here before. He's following a script to perfection. We can tell you what's going to happen next, then next, from here. But I think you can figure it out.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Gabriel is exactly right. Humans follow patterns in their behavior, patterns that are recognizable. Infidelity is one category of human behavior and it is like all the others in its discernible patterns.

We can tell you that he is continuing with her, hiding it from you, and lying to you. That is the assured outcome of the confrontation you had and his reaction to it.

You really, really have to make hard choices if you want him to stop. He has to commit to 'no contact' with her, agree to transparency and own what he has done. You have to expose to friends and family, learn how to monitor with a VAR, and tell him in no uncertain terms that you will definitely file for divorce if this continues. And you have to mean it.

Even with the promises and monitoring, the next step in the pattern is for him to keep lying and to continue the A, with burner phones, messaging apps, fake fb accounts, hidden e-mail accounts, etc. This is a very difficult road. You have to be very strong and decisive to go down it successfully.

On the other hand, you could decide that it's not worth it to try to manage a philandering husband who doesn't want to be trustworthy. Many people make this decision, and it is a perfectly honorable one.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

If you do'nt have kids, get out NOW.

This guy is going to be way too much work to turn him around into a mature adult.

Do NOT move anywhere with him.
Do NOT believe he's ended contact.
Do NOT have sex with him (he may have an STD and you also need to keep your focus, sex stifles focus, and you don't want to get pregnant right now either)

Just get OUT of this mess. He reacted like an overgrown child being disciplined by a parent.

You do NOT want to have to play cat and mouse games with this guy for the next ten years until he grows up do you?

There are men out there that DO respect women and don't play these childish head games with you.

Sorry, but this guy sounds like way too much trouble to invest in. Whatever merits he has, if his maturity is at this low level he is a BAD INVESTMENT in your time.

Just get OUT of there.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> If you do'nt have kids, get out NOW.
> 
> This guy is going to be way too much work to turn him around into a mature adult.
> 
> ...


We don't just need a like for this post we need a ((((LOVE)))) for this post.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

wranglerman said:


> We don't just need a like for this post we need a ((((LOVE)))) for this post.


:smnotworthy:


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Do not fall for his anger or defensiveness.

One of my first posts here is called "I snooped, he cheated and he's angry at me?!" 

When someone is cheating and wants to continue cheating, they get angry and indignant - especially when it comes to their "invasion of privacy". FCUK THAT!

Cheating is an INVASION ON THE MARRIAGE.

Do not move with him. By locking his phone and changing his passwords after failing to stop talking to her after he told you he was going to is all the proof you need. He is in an affair with this woman. Though they haven't met in person, he is in an EA. What's more is he's trying to take it underground.

Don't believe a word he says. All you can trust is his actions. If his words (I'll stop talking to her) aren't consistent with his actions (texting continues, locks you out of phone, changes password on computer) the truth is in the actions.

Expose him. Don't warn him about it, just do it. If you warn him, he will tell everyone you're crazy. My WS told his entire family that I physically attacked him. That was B.S. They'll say anything under the sun to try to make their affair look better by comparison so don't warn him about exposure. Just do it.

Then file for divorce.

I agree with Allen, if you don't have kids with this man, then cut bait. It will hurt like hell to leave him but it will hurt anyways. This is a young marriage and he's already cheating. Imagine how faithful he'll be when there's kids, a higher mortgage, possible illness and other hiccups in life that cause stress and take-away from fun and couple time? If you can't count on him to be there right now when things are supposed to be good, you won't be able to count on him during the worst of times.

If you do have kids with this man and think you want to reconcile, my advice on moving, exposure and filing for divorce are the same. In order to reconcile with an indignant idiot, you need to wake them up by pulling the rug out from under them. Make him know he is going to lose you over this but don't bluff. You need to be willing to lose him too. 

You can't beg, reason or barter anyone out of an affair. You also can't reconcile until the cheater stops the affair for good and feels remorse for what they've done.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Baggage said:


> I should have specified. His friends aren't here in the house. They are back in his home state. They talk on headsets over the computer, message on Facebook, or most text on his phone.
> 
> I did some research into what all he's told them and and I am so embarrassed and ashamed. We are/were supposed to be moving there in a few months and I don't think I could ever look any of them in the face. How little they must think of me if their friend has no respect for me? They will just be laughing at me the whole time. How am I supposed to build a life there away from my support network of family and friends with this hovering over me?
> 
> ...


PTSD is my world. Professionally I counsel combat Veterans and the main issue I deal with is PTSD. I also suffer from it from my time in Iraq.

Putting aside the most common symptoms of PTSD, infidelity and cheating is not one of them. 

You have a back bone. Don't give in to him changing his passwords and locking his phone. Confront again and tell him straight up, no secrets. Shared passwords, and no locked phones. Tell him you already caught him lying and that the computer and the phone are big issues. 

He has just elevated this to about the highest level there is in a marriage.

After you confront him about this, if he does not relent, change, etc, then start the 180 hard and be prepared to leave him.


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