# Wife not attracted to me because...



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

She told me that she's not attracted to me sexually any more, because I'm not fun any more. I'm too uptight. We had our first son 9 months ago and admittedly, I've been highstrung. 

But there's more...she also has a crush on someone. We were in an open relationship before we had our son, and she became close to this guy. Now, she's thinking about him because I'm not fun to be around. 

She was ready to end it last night. But after we talked, we agreed it wasn't the best thing for our son and that she was willing to give it some time. My main point was that it's not fair for her to drop this bomb on me, on us, without giving some leeways to make adjustments. FWIW, we've been together for 10 years, married for 8. We have lived in Asia for 4 years. She is from Europe, and I from the States. So splitting up makes things very complicated. 

I've known that I was too intense about certain things. I'm talking myself down, but it will take some time. These thinking patterns are habitual. 

Any advice?


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Get into MC as quickly as possible to sort out whatever issues you have, you do not want this to be rug swept now you have a young child to contend with. Going from an open relationship to one which is monogamous will be difficult IMO. Your partner (are you married?) well may be looking for emotional security now that she has decided to have a child with you, a number of issues I guess whereas you may want the same old same old, I don't think that is going to work. 

Are you sure the kid is yours? Sounds a bit complicated. What adjustments are you talking about, you changing your open relationship status?


What are you so high strung about, you need to give more info?


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

Thanks Aine. 

I am looking for a marriage counselor now. Yes, she is my wife. Yes, I am sure the child is mine. It is complicated, but isn't it always?

What I mean about the adjustments is that when she sprung this one me, she was talking about taking a break and then seeing what would happen. We agreed that this choice wasn't fair to me or our son b/c there was no communication on her part before it got to her leaving. There was no talk about her unhappiness before she said she wanted to leave. So the adjustments are changing the way that we relate. More specifically, I need to be more fun to be around and less uptight. 

I guess I have been emotionally unavailable. I feel fine, and I figured she'd tell me if she had a problem. I see that was a mistake, that our relationship needs consistent nurturing, not only when things are "bad". 

We have not been in an open relationship for a year. I'm fine with it. She has been fine with it, but is recently experssing some interest in having some sexual adventures. I can be OK with this, but not until our relationship is taken care of first. 

I think the big problem is that we haven't really had any couple time since our son was born. We went on our first date four days ago. 95% of what we talk about is our son and issues around his son. And then we get into conflicting parenting styles. My uptightness is that I have a tendency to think in terms of worst-case scenarios and this usually leads me into a pretty reactive state where I'm no fun to be around.


----------



## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Get a DNA test on the baby.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

Thanks for the advice, but I am quite sure the child is mine.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

Peacem, 

Thanks for your response. It's intelligent and caring. 

I agree with your assessment that 9 months is no time at all for things to settle. I'm not sure why she feels so rushed all of a sudden, but she has a tendency to not express for a while and then make a drastic decision. There are other details that factor in, namely that she doesn't know what she's going to do with her life. She's 33 and has plenty of work experience but not any sort of professional trajectory. Without getting too new-agey, she doesn't know what her purpose is. 

Army of baby sitters...this has proven more difficult than I imagined, but we are making progress. We are going on our 2nd date in as many weeks on Friday. 

Yes, I always knew I was a worrier, but having a kid took it to the next level. She's right. I'm sure that I'm not very fun to be around very often. It's always so serious with me. Like I said, I'm working on talking myself down. 

Neglected? I guess that's it, though it's hard to admit. I'm working and starting a business in my free time. I'm swamped and I guess I figured as long as the boy is fine, we're fine. But that's obviously not the case. 

Thanks again for your clarity. I will think about what's going on for me in the relationship as well.


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Texan said:


> Thanks for the advice, but I am quite sure the child is mine.


how do you know? There have been many cases where the father was sure, only to be found out later he wasn't.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Open relationship... Seriously, why are you surprised that your wife is attracted to someone else and is willing to drop you like a hot potato? An open marriage communicates 2 things to most people: 1) you don't value your spouse enough to desire exclusivity and 2) you don't respect yourself enough to keep your marriage exclusive.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I would not want to be married to someone who will cheat on me 9 months after we produced a child, because I cannot meet some standard she has.

If a woman had a 9 month old baby and was not all fun and sexy with her husband, would anyone think it's remotely fair for the man to tell her "You're no fun, I have a crush on someone"... We'd all be outraged at his insensitivity. Men / Fathers are not emotionless robots... We need to have a chance to come to terms with fatherhood.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Open relationship... Seriously, why are you surprised that your wife is attracted to someone else and is willing to drop you like a hot potato? An open marriage communicates 2 things to most people: 1) you don't value your spouse enough to desire exclusivity and 2) you don't respect yourself enough to keep your marriage exclusive.


While I try not to judge, I agree with Plan that having an open relationship gives the gesture of "*indecisiveness*." 

I remember dating a girl in college and she was a sophomore and had still not decided what she wanted to major in. While she was very attractive and we had a great deal of sexual chemistry, I eventually broke up with her because I could not get over the fact that she was spending a buttload of her parents money (she came from a modest family) to go to college without knowing what she even wanted to study. 

When I met my wife, not only she knew what she wanted to study but she was so good at her major that she exempted most of her requirements. Her chosen field of study went against her parents wishes, so they refused to pay and she won a full scholarship. 

Between those two personalities, I would say one I could only tolerate being around one. While the girl that did not know what to major in was A LOT OF FUN, there is just something so unappetizing about someone who is indecisive in my opinion. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Texan said:


> Thanks for the advice, but I am quite sure the child is mine.


Please spend the $30 some dollars at walmart then the $130 to get it processed.
Make sure you have a limited (depending by state) window to contest this.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I would put even odds on the guy she has a crush on being the father.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

Hicks, 

Thanks for saying that. I think you're absolutely right. 

She's agreed it's not fair, but as of yet, we haven't figured out how to turn a crush on or off. It's really just a matter of her growing up a little bit and learning to put it in the right context, in the right perspective.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

For those who keep insisting that I get my child tested, I hear you, now please drop it.


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

OP - you really need to consider the possibility that the child is his, not yours. As crappy as it sounds, if you read the CWI forum here, you will begin to understand.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Texan said:


> Hicks,
> 
> Thanks for saying that. I think you're absolutely right.
> 
> She's agreed it's not fair, but as of yet, we haven't figured out how to turn a crush on or off. *It's really just a matter of her growing up* a little bit and *learning to put it in the right context*, in the right perspective.


WOW... I guess it sucks to be married to a Philistine who doesn't have such highly evolved views on human sexuality...


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

I appreciate your opinions on the open marriage. For us, it was a good thing. It was helpful and made us a stronger couple. 

Though we're not in an open relationship now, and have not been for more than a year, since we decided to get pregnant, it does work quite well for some people. We're all figuring life and love out as we go and our solutions and strategies will be different. C'est la vie.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
It appears that your wife has not fully matured. You indicated that she in essence "doesn't know what she wants to be when she grows up" and this is carrying over into "not sure who I want to spend the rest of my life with". Sadly she is now a mother and deciding she may not want to be one, which I see coming next, will make for a very difficult road ahead.

As to the open marriage issue, I believe in the vast majority of cases of open marriage it is again, an indicator of immaturity and an inability to commit. Open marriage is an oxymoron. Remaining single is a much preferable route so that when one or both "partners" "fall in love" with someone else there is little to dissolve and therefore easier to move on, like when dating.

You indicated that you are a worrier. How were you able to disallow thoughts of exactly what has happened in your arrangement? How did your worrying mind not see this inevitability coming? In any event, the issue is now you are not "fun" enough for your immature partner.

She needs to understand that mid thirties is not twenty something and having a child is daunting in its responsibility. The time for that kind of "fun" has passed. Now comes the adult version of fun, a shift of your fundamental concept of what fun is as an adult. Parenthood has it challenges but it also has unbelievable rewards. The "fun" of being an adult (wife and mother) is vastly different from partying and having sexual freedom but it is a natural transition from adolescent to adult.

You and your wife, especially her, need to realize that life changes as we mature and we must change accordingly, that is what we call maturing.

If your wife needs more fun there are ways for adults to experience that which allows the family to remain intact. You and she must also realize that if she pursues her new "fun" guy it will, in short order, become evident to her that her child is a severe hinderance to her fun times at which time you will have to take on the brunt of caring for your child as she goes about her party lifestyle.

She needs to grow up and accept the responsibility of parenthood and you need to realize that there needs to be "down time" in life but that does not mean partying and sexual free-for-all. Find adult fun things to do.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Hicks said:


> I would not want to be married to someone who will cheat on me 9 months after we produced a child, because I cannot meet some standard she has.
> 
> If a woman had a 9 month old baby and was not all fun and sexy with her husband, would anyone think it's remotely fair for the man to tell her "You're no fun, I have a crush on someone"... We'd all be outraged at his insensitivity. Men / Fathers are not emotionless robots... We need to have a chance to come to terms with fatherhood.



Please read the original post. They had an open relationship. .... no cheating here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> WOW... I guess it sucks to be married to a Philistine who doesn't have such highly evolved views on human sexuality...



I'm not sure what you mean. Can you say more about that? 

I'll explain myself more in the meantime. I think it's common for people to get crushes, to want to sleep with other people. But acting on that whim, on that impulse that would hurt other people is immature. It's selfish. So yes, I do think my wife needs to grow up a little bit and put her family, her son, before her *****.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> It appears that your wife has not fully matured. You indicated that she in essence "doesn't know what she wants to be when she grows up" and this is carrying over into "not sure who I want to spend the rest of my life with". Sadly she is now a mother and deciding she may not want to be one, which I see coming next, will make for a very difficult road ahead.
> 
> As to the open marriage issue, I believe in the vast majority of cases of open marriage it is again, an indicator of immaturity and an inability to commit. Open marriage is an oxymoron. Remaining single is a much preferable route so that when one or both "partners" "fall in love" with someone else there is little to dissolve and therefore easier to move on, like when dating.
> ...


Thanks for this response, NoChoice. I think you're right, for the mos part. I don't think an open relationship is the best choice right now. I am happy being monogamous again. I've really changed since becoming a dad--stopped drinking and going out. I do think a night out every once in a while is good for the soul, as long as its within reason. 

Well, I did see it coming, I suppose. Poor judgment, I guess. 

What do you mean by "down time"? 

And what adult things? I'm serious. I've realized in the past 2 years that adult fun has usually meant drinking and partying, and I'm not really sure what else to do. I'm an improviser, but that's not something we do together. 

Thanks again for the words.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

Yes, she has not cheated. 

I know, I know, maybe she's lying to me, but I trust her. 

If you're going to post to try to convince me that I should have a DNA test or to investigate to find out if she's cheating, please don't. I will ignore any such comments.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Texan said:


> I appreciate your opinions on the open marriage. *For us, it was a good thing. It was helpful and made us a stronger couple.*
> 
> Though we're not in an open relationship now, and have not been for more than a year, since we decided to get pregnant, it does work quite well for some people. We're all figuring life and love out as we go and our solutions and strategies will be different. C'est la vie.


I am curious, how is your wife having a "crush" (high school?) on another man and wanting to end your marriage and not having any sexual attraction for any longer a good thing?


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

"having a crush" is high school. What term would you use? 

Though it was open, not too much actually happened, but the possibility that something could happen was liberating. It was a bit of having the cake and eating it too. 
It's not for everyone, which means it is for some people. And that's OK, too.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Texan said:


> I appreciate your opinions on the open marriage. For us, it was a good thing. It was helpful and made us a stronger couple.


This is not the right place for you. Try polyamorouspercolations.


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Texan said:


> Yes, she has not cheated.
> 
> I know, I know, maybe she's lying to me, but I trust her.
> 
> If you're going to post to try to convince me that I should have a DNA test or to investigate to find out if she's cheating, please don't. I will ignore any such comments.


her crush is an EA, most likely. Hell, probably PA. Ignore at your own risk.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> I am curious, how is your wife having a "crush" (high school?) on another man and wanting to end your marriage and not having any sexual attraction for any longer a good thing?


For US when it happened, it was a wake up call and a grow up dope slap.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

I'd suggest marriage counseling, if possible. But just as important, do you think individual therapy for you to de-stress and adjust to the roles of being a father/husband would help?


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Do you both work?

If you divorce, where will you both live?

How many languages do you have to cope with?


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Texan said:


> "having a crush" is high school. What term would you use?
> 
> Though it was open, not too much actually happened, but the possibility that something could happen was liberating. It was a bit of having the cake and eating it too.
> It's not for everyone, which means it is for some people. And that's OK, too.


You still can not connect the dots? It was not that good to your marriage, it did not make it stronger. it is falling apart now becasue your wife still wants to have and eat the cake.


----------



## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Texan,

In almost all cases on the boards and in my personal experience, I've never engaged myself, swinging or open marriages end up badly for the husband. As is the case in your thread, wives are less able to separate sex from love and like Russian roulette it's just a matter of time before one clicks. 

Your Ws love has been transferred over to this OM and now by comparison you are dull, in fact James Bond would seem dull if his W were in an affair.

I believe this is biological in origin and is independent of our feelings about the morality or immorality of it. 

Your anxiety at a deeper level may stem to some degree from knowing your W is with other people.

Tamat


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Texan said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. Can you say more about that?
> 
> I'll explain myself more in the meantime. I think it's common for people to get crushes, to want to sleep with other people. But acting on that whim, on that impulse that would hurt other people is immature. It's selfish. So yes, I do think my wife needs to grow up a little bit and put her family, her son, before her *****.


As others already stated, most people cannot compartmentalize their life. In your wife's case, she developed feelings for the guy she was screwing during your open relationship. You evidently did not develop feelings for the woman(en) that you screwed. By you telling he she needs to grow up because she developed feelings for the guy she fvcked is asinine. Most people are not wired that way, and they do develop feelings when they are intimate with another person. If you were able to avoid that - good for you. You are so much more "evolved" than backwards people like your wife and most likely myself.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

WandaJ said:


> You still can not connect the dots? It was not that good to your marriage, it did not make it stronger. it is falling apart now becasue your wife still wants to have and eat the cake.


Agree 100% x 100.

Listen man.

Your wife got used to having sex with other guys, right?

Then she settled down with you, had a kid, and all of a sudden life isn't all about the fun sexual adventures, right? It's about you and her raising this kid.

Maybe postpartum, maybe she just has the tinglies for some other guy, maybe she never really gave up the 'open' part for reals.

She wants to go back to party time, but you and this kid are just bumming her out. So do what you gotta do about being high strung and emotionally unavailble, but my guess is that this current dilemma has nothing to do with that.

And everything to do with her wanting you to stay at home and raise this kid while she goes and parties on other guys' beds.

So you have a decision to make. Part ways until she can grow up and settle down, part ways for good, for the good of your kid, or get into some serious MC and worry about her for the rest of your life. Unless you're willing to go back to the 'open' part, which she will probably persue with a whole lot more zeal and enthusiasm than you will.

Sorry about that.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Texan said:


> "having a crush" is high school. What term would you use?


OP, if you understood the true meaning of love you would see it as impossible to have a "crush" on another man. The inescapable conclusion is that your wife has only ever had "crushes" on any of her lovers, you included. You can argue the merits of this new age, progressive, enlightened way of thinking wherein you allow your lover the freedom to pursue her sexual happiness and experience liberation from sexual oppression if you like but it is pure bovine excrement. It is just a way for people to dodge commitment while pretending to want it.

If that is what you wanted you should have remained single and copulated with whomever you chose. Love and consequently marriage, is a devoting of one's self to the other, a giving of heart and soul to one who will protect, nurture and cherish it. It is an extremely valuable union that fortifies and strengthens the individual by knowing you are cared for in that way. You two have done none of that and now your pretend marriage is in trouble, is that really a shocker?

If you want a marriage then make it so, stop behaving like school kids and realize that you are now adults and parents. Commitment means remembering the vows your swore to and realizing that "for better or worse" means for better or worse and "forsaking all others" means forsaking all others and focusing your energy on each other to strengthen the marriage and make a solid family for that new baby.




Texan said:


> Thanks for this response, NoChoice. I think you're right, for the mos part. I don't think an open relationship is the best choice right now. I am happy being monogamous again. I've really changed since becoming a dad--stopped drinking and going out. I do think a night out every once in a while is good for the soul, as long as its within reason.
> 
> *This is called maturing. You have responsibility now and another life dependent on you so your nights out should be planned accordingly*
> 
> ...


You two have entered a new era in your lives. It is time to let go of the old and embrace the new. What you see as dull and boring now you will find brings more happiness and contentment than drunken partying ever could. The time you spend as a family is precious and fleeting and before you know it your kids will be grown and having kids of their own. And the there are grandkids....but your too young to think of that now. Enjoy your family and cherish each moment.


----------



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

I'm curious, does she still have contact with her crush? Or any of the men she may have physically or romantically been involved with in the past during the "open" portion of your marriage? If so, I would hope you would insist that she end any contact with them. I know since it was an open marriage, the former partners don't need to necessarily be treated like former affair partners, but it will still be best for the monogamous marriage now that there be no contact with them. It just won't be fair to you if you are having to essentially compete with them for your wife's affection/attention while dealing with all the less fun aspects of life together, while they can just focus on the fun flirty parts.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Texan said:


> I appreciate your opinions on the open marriage. For us, it was a good thing. I*t was helpful and made us a stronger couple. *
> 
> Though we're not in an open relationship now, and have not been for more than a year, *since we decided to get pregnant, *it does work quite well for some people. *We're all figuring life and love out as we go* and our solutions and strategies will be different. C'est la vie.





Texan said:


> *Yes, she has not cheated. *
> 
> I know, I know, maybe she's lying to me, but I trust her.
> 
> If you're going to post to try to convince me that I should have a DNA test or to investigate to find out if she's cheating, please don't. *I will ignore any such comments*.


Fascinating. Open Marriage, different cultures, decided the marriage was strong enough to add a child to, then 9 months or so later, wife asks for divorce and says she is not sexually attracted to you and you aren't fun anymore.

First. Mothers sometimes get mood swings associated with weaning a child. 9 months sounds like a potential issue. 

KellyMom.com : Sadness and depression during (and after) weaning

Second, about how being fun is really important, I will quote advice from someone who was one of the most desirable women in the world.


> “If you can make a woman laugh, you can make her do anything.”
> 
> ― Marilyn Monroe


So yes, become more fun to be around, figure out ways to make her happy, laugh and smile. Your date nights are a good strart.

Third. Even the strongest relationships are strained with the arrival of a new child. Many hospitals now include a couple's workshop with birthing services. The best of the courses is done by the Gottman's. You might want to check it out and possibly either attend one of their courses locally or get one of their book/videos.

Bringing Baby Home Program - The Gottman InstituteThe Gottman Institute 

Fourth, the thing that screams out at me the most, is your are taking this so matter of fact taking this. Mr Spock of Star Trek would be proud of you. Both mothers and fathers through interaction bond to the infant. You sound like you haven't fully bonded yet to your baby. 

Actually, your wife sounds like she hasn't bonded to you as well. One would think that a young mother with a new child would be into full protective nest mode and yet she is talking about more fun and wanting a divorce.

That screams to me that she is not looking at her new role as a mother, she is thinking she wants reverse course and be young & free in her mind. She really can't do that in any real sense with a small child. Her past fling is a crutch to go back to an earlier time when she didn't have the responsibilities she now does. Either that or she views the other guy as a white knight who will save her.

You need serious professional marriage counseling. ASAP. Your wife needs one of her friends or family to sit her down and tell her to grow up now that she is a wife and mother. Unfortunately growing up is hard to do.

Good luck to you.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> For US when it happened, it was a wake up call and a grow up dope slap.


Yes, thanks for that.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

JoeHenderson said:


> I'd suggest marriage counseling, if possible. But just as important, do you think individual therapy for you to de-stress and adjust to the roles of being a father/husband would help?


Thanks Joe, for the good advice and for staying on topic! I am in touch with a counselor now, for myself.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

LongWalk said:


> Do you both work?
> 
> If you divorce, where will you both live?
> 
> How many languages do you have to cope with?


We both work, but her only less than 10 hours/week. Where we live our pay rate is very high and the cost of living is very low so a little bit goes a long way. 

We are not sure about where to live. I think I would find an apartment nearby, but that's not set in stone. 

Three languages. We are both fluent in each other's mother tongue, and then the local language.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> As others already stated, most people cannot compartmentalize their life. In your wife's case, she developed feelings for the guy she was screwing during your open relationship. You evidently did not develop feelings for the woman(en) that you screwed. By you telling he she needs to grow up because she developed feelings for the guy she fvcked is asinine. Most people are not wired that way, and they do develop feelings when they are intimate with another person. If you were able to avoid that - good for you. You are so much more "evolved" than backwards people like your wife and most likely myself.


She never slept with him. That's why she considers it a crush and not anything more intense. And for the record I did develop feelings for one woman that I slept with, and it's not about compartementalizing my life. I made a choice. 

And I say that my wife is being immature about this because she's considering chasing some crush to the detriment of her family. I think that's childish, impulsive. Don't you?


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> OP, if you understood the true meaning of love you would see it as impossible to have a "crush" on another man. The inescapable conclusion is that your wife has only ever had "crushes" on any of her lovers, you included.


I appreciate your opinion, NoChoice. I hope you recognize it as such. For the record, most of our relationship was not open. It was only something we experimented with for almost a year. You have your opinion about open relationships, but you seem intelligent enough to know that it might not apply to everyone. There are plenty of people who claim that an open relationship works and works well for them. Who are you or anyone to tell them they are full of bovine excrement? 

Marriage, like all relationships, is defined by the people in the relationship. What marriage is to you, may not apply to me. How can it be otherwise? 

Pretend marriage? Please, don't be an anal sphincter. You know very little about my marriage, myself or my wife. So if you're really going to tout Spock as your avatar, stick to what you know or that you can logically deduce.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

cdbaker said:


> I'm curious, does she still have contact with her crush? Or any of the men she may have physically or romantically been involved with in the past during the "open" portion of your marriage? If so, I would hope you would insist that she end any contact with them. I know since it was an open marriage, the former partners don't need to necessarily be treated like former affair partners, but it will still be best for the monogamous marriage now that there be no contact with them. It just won't be fair to you if you are having to essentially compete with them for your wife's affection/attention while dealing with all the less fun aspects of life together, while they can just focus on the fun flirty parts.


Agreed, if I am to trust her then she is not in regular contact. There is a small community of foreigners so the haphazard meeting is bound to happen.

And thanks for not rushing to judgement. I appreciate your input.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

Young at Heart said:


> First. Mothers sometimes get mood swings associated with weaning a child. 9 months sounds like a potential issue.


Interesting you say that. Last night she said to me it feels amazing how quickly her emotions are changing these days. 



Young at Heart said:


> Second, about how being fun is really important, I will quote advice from someone who was one of the most desirable women in the world.


Great advice. I usually do a great job of keeping her laughing. I'm a trained clown and improviser so making people laugh is something I have a lot of experience in. The thing is, somehow, I don't feel as fun when I'm at home. It feels heavy and I feel so serious, like I've got to solve all the problems. It's hard to make her laugh when I'm like that. 

[


Young at Heart said:


> Fourth, the thing that screams out at me the most, is your are taking this so matter of fact taking this. Mr Spock of Star Trek would be proud of you. Both mothers and fathers through interaction bond to the infant. You sound like you haven't fully bonded yet to your baby.


And now, you're way off. I'm not sure what a full bond would feel like, but I assure you that I am absolutely in love with that little creature and it tears me up to think that I might not get to see him so often. It's true that I'm not here on the board crying to people, but that's not what I'm here for. I have a support system to help me deal with this emotionally. I came here to see if there might be some advice that I'm not getting elsewhere.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think the disconnect here is that people are seeing a ton of red flags that you are just dismissing. You're asking everyone to "stay on topic" as if you've already got it all figured out. If that is the case, what are you really looking for? Affirmation that everything is going to be OK? I think on one level you know that there is a big problem here, but on another level you react quite strongly against those who try to point out precisely what is wrong. So what do you really want to know?


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)




----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> I think the disconnect here is that people are seeing a ton of red flags that you are just dismissing. You're asking everyone to "stay on topic" as if you've already got it all figured out. If that is the case, what are you really looking for? Affirmation that everything is going to be OK? I think on one level you know that there is a big problem here, but on another level you react quite strongly against those who try to point out precisely what is wrong. So what do you really want to know?


A ton? Like what? You jumping to conclusions that the child isn't mine?


Anon1111 said:


> I would put even odds on the guy she has a crush on being the father.


That's not a red flag, that's a stupid assumption. Not b/c it couldn't be true, but b/c it's your first assumption. You didn't ask any follow up questions to get more information. The observant reader would have noted that my original post said we have a 9 month old and then my second post said we had not been in an OR in a year. Yes, I'm sure you'll say that it's possible that she cheated on me after the fact. And yes, it's possible, but to assume that with so little information is asinine. 

What are the ton of red flags that you see? I see the OM as a possible EA. That's one. When did I dismiss that? I say possible b/c she has not been in touch with him in two weeks. IMO, that is not the behavior of someone who is having an EA. And again, yes, she could be lying to me, but I've got no evidence to suggest that she is, and until I do, I'm not going to start suspecting her because that is a dangerous path. If she wanted to lie to me, she probably would've just ****ed him and wouldn't have told me that she has a crush on him. 

Every woman who has doubts or is unhappy is not necessarily being unfaithful. 

So what are the ton of red flags? The OM is one. The fact that we were in an open relationship for ~9 months of our 10 year relationship? 

I think number two is that she doesn't really know what she wants in her life in terms of a calling. I think that's an underlying factor that creates a scenario for a general state of unhappiness in her that can potentially cause our family a lot of problems. I've got 2, both of which I brought up from the beginning. Neither of which I dismissed. 

What other red flags have I dismissed?

What I came here for was advice about reigniting sexual attraction.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Texan said:


> What I came here for was advice about reigniting sexual attraction.


I think it is very relevant to your inquiry that a wife saying "I'm not sexually attracted to you anymore", like "I love you but I'm not in love with you", usually means that the wife is looking elsewhere for sex, and most of the time that search has already been successful.

If there is *any* possibility that this is the case, the first thing to do is to go James Bond and find out what is going on by stealthy means. Don't let on that you are suspicious of her, just find out what she is up to. And don't think "she wouldn't do anything like that because xxx". Many men on TAM have thought that, and most of them have been wrong.

See Weightlifter's thread on standard evidence gathering (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html) for information on how to catch her if she is cheating.


----------



## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

Texan said:


> She told me that she's not attracted to me sexually any more, because I'm not fun any more. I'm too uptight. We had our first son 9 months ago and admittedly, I've been highstrung.
> 
> But there's more...she also has a crush on someone. We were in an open relationship before we had our son, and she became close to this guy. Now, she's thinking about him because I'm not fun to be around.
> 
> ...


Yes, lots of advice. You won't take any of it, but, really, everything I write here will be an exercise in "What if I, NotLikeYou, found myself in the situation Texan described? What would I do?"

Well, I would try real hard to not be high-strung. This would be hard, since I would worry constantly that my wife was hiking up her skirt for the man she finds attractive, but I would try nonetheless.

See, women find high-strung men very unattractive. And the first thing I would be doing would be trying to be attractive. Actually, I would be trying to be attractive in other ways, but you wouldn't understand, so I'll skip those.

Let's move on. Ah, yes, "Open" relationships. Texan, wanna know a secret? There is only one thing in this whole wide world that you can give to your wife that no one else can. That gift is Fidelity / Loyalty / Exclusivity.

Anything else under the sun, she can get from other people. So when you say to her, "baby, I love you so much that I want to have sex with other people," you explode the one truly valuable thing that you brought with you into the marriage.

"But, but, but, NotLikeYou, I didn't have hardly any sex with other people! She had sex with lots of other men, and I only bumped nasties with a few other women!"

Yeah, the other message you sent her was "baby, I care about you so deeply that, hey, if you want to spread your legs for other guys, it's cool."

So you told her that the most valuable gift that SHE can give YOU, Fidelity / Loyalty / Exclusivity, isn't worth much to you.

Your wife is attracted to someone else because every time she looks at you, she sees a big flashing neon sign over your head that says "Man of low value."

And she was ready to end it last night. But you begged and pleaded and she felt sorry for you (with contempt sprinkled in liberally) so she agreed to tread water for awhile.

Yeah, women absolutely LOVE guys who beg. Low value, indeed.



Texan said:


> Thanks Aine.
> 
> I am looking for a marriage counselor now. Yes, she is my wife. Yes, I am sure the child is mine. It is complicated, but isn't it always?


No. Actually, it's usually pretty simple and straightforward. See, normally, people are in monogamous relationships, and these kinds of concerns just aren't in the picture. The reason "it's complicated" is 100% due to immature and foolish choices on YOUR part. 



Texan said:


> I appreciate your opinions on the open marriage. For us, it was a good thing. It was helpful and made us a stronger couple.
> 
> Though we're not in an open relationship now, and have not been for more than a year, since we decided to get pregnant, it does work quite well for some people. We're all figuring life and love out as we go and our solutions and strategies will be different. C'est la vie.


So tell me how you are a stronger couple with your wife wanting to leave you for another man.....

Because that sounds kind of not-strong to me.

But, hey, you have such a good handle on things that you think airy cliches explain everything away. 



Texan said:


> Yes, she has not cheated.
> 
> I know, I know, maybe she's lying to me, but I trust her.
> 
> If you're going to post to try to convince me that I should have a DNA test or to investigate to find out if she's cheating, please don't. I will ignore any such comments.


Texan, the University where I went to school (in Texas) had the following statement engraved across the south face of the main building-

"Ye Shall Know the Truth and the Truth Shall Set Ye Free."

I don't envy you the lessons life is going to be teaching you in the coming months.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

technovelist said:


> I think it is very relevant to your inquiry that a wife saying "I'm not sexually attracted to you anymore", like "I love you but I'm not in love with you", usually means that the wife is looking elsewhere for sex, and most of the time that search has already been successful.
> 
> If there is *any* possibility that this is the case, the first thing to do is to go James Bond and find out what is going on by stealthy means. Don't let on that you are suspicious of her, just find out what she is up to. And don't think "she wouldn't do anything like that because xxx". Many men on TAM have thought that, and most of them have been wrong.
> 
> See Weightlifter's thread on standard evidence gathering (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html) for information on how to catch her if she is cheating.


Ok, I hear you. Thanks.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Texan said:


> I appreciate your opinions on the *open marriage. For us, it was a good thing. It was helpful and made us a stronger couple..*





Texan said:


> But there's more...she also has a crush on someone. We were in an open relationship before we had our son, and she became close to this guy. Now, she's thinking about him because I'm not fun to be around.
> *
> She was ready to end it last night. ,*


Well, I am going to say it didn't make your relationship stronger using your own words. Marriage counseling yesterday.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

NotLikeYou said:


> Yes, lots of advice. You won't take any of it, but, really, everything I write here will be an exercise in "What if I, NotLikeYou, found myself in the situation Texan described? What would I do?"


Wow, the disdain. A got a private message telling me that this board was full of bitter, hurt people. And with a few exceptions, I am now in agreement. A genuine thank you to those who didn't rush to judgements and offered advice. 

To the rest of you,  If you're marriage isn't going well, it might be due to a lack of emotional intelligence on your part. Mind-reading, jumping to conclusions, and belittling others is not something people, in general, like very much. If you're interested, check out non-violent communication. Remember, the map is not the territory. 

I am now removing myself from this conversation, unless someone offers some advice that comes from a caring, compassionate place, like a few members have done.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, I am going to say it didn't make your relationship stronger using your own words. Marriage counseling yesterday.


Fair.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Texan said:


> Wow, the disdain. A got a private message telling me that this board was full of bitter, hurt people. And with a few exceptions, I am now in agreement. A genuine thank you to those who didn't rush to judgements and offered advice.
> 
> To the rest of you,  If you're marriage isn't going well, it might be due to a lack of emotional intelligence on your part. Mind-reading, jumping to conclusions, and belittling others is not something people, in general, like very much. If you're interested, check out non-violent communication. Remember, the map is not the territory.
> 
> I am now removing myself from this conversation, unless someone offers some advice that comes from a caring, compassionate place, like a few members have done.


General Semantics is a great help in communication, but it doesn't provide magical insight where data is lacking.

The data you may be lacking is that this board is composed mostly of people who have been cheated on and have found out the hard way that seemingly sensible behaviors like being nice to a cheater don't give very good results. They are giving advice from a place of knowledge that most people would rather not have, in an attempt to share that knowledge with you.

I should also mention that most people here aren't very positively inclined toward open marriages. I don't know everyone's motivations for this opinion of course. But in my case, although I have no intrinsic hatred for such relationships, I see reasons why they tend to produce unfortunate results.

Anyway, I hope this helps you understand the apparent harshness of some of the advice you have been given here.


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

technovelist said:


> General Semantics is a great help in communication, but it doesn't provide magical insight where data is lacking.
> 
> The data you may be lacking is that this board is composed mostly of people who have been cheated on and have found out the hard way that seemingly sensible behaviors like being nice to a cheater don't give very good results. They are giving advice from a place of knowledge that most people would rather not have, in an attempt to share that knowledge with you.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. I appreciate the clarification. It did help.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Texan said:


> Thanks for that. I appreciate the clarification. It did help.


You're quite welcome.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Not a proponent of letting other men bed my wife but have studied the practice a lot.

It isn't for you two.

We have a couple of folks on this forum that practice poly or use to and they would clearly nail you two for screwing up.

Learn about monogamy and go to MC together.

Read a couple books by Dr. Harley.

Your child deserves some grown up parents.

The small percentage of successful swingers would never risk their primary relationship over a "crush".

As much as I disagree with them, the successful ones are mature enough to handle their shyt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Texan (Sep 22, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Not a proponent of letting other men bed my wife but have studied the practice a lot.
> 
> It isn't for you two.
> 
> ...


I agree, and I'll look into Dr. Harley. Thanks for the input.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Texan said:


> She told me that she's not attracted to me sexually any more, because I'm not fun any more. I'm too uptight. We had our first son 9 months ago and admittedly, I've been highstrung.
> 
> But there's more...she also has a crush on someone. We were in an open relationship before we had our son, and she became close to this guy. Now, she's thinking about him because I'm not fun to be around.
> 
> ...


Open relationships are tough to figure out for most of us. So what was the motivator for the open relationship? Maybe she wasn't all that attracted to you from the get-go but you seemed like good biology. Secondly, it's not a good time with the kid being 9 months old. Her hormones are in maternal mode. I'm surprised she's all that into anyone at the moment.


----------



## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Texan said:


> For those who keep insisting that I get my child tested, I hear you, now please drop it.


Thank you. Sometimes even if we mean well we get really pushy around here. 

Paternity issue advice is not what Texan is asking for...that's not even an issue for him.

Stick to what HE needs and stop derailing the thread. 

Sheesh

Bibi


----------



## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Texan said:


> Wow, the disdain. A got a private message telling me that this board was full of bitter, hurt people. And with a few exceptions, I am now in agreement. A genuine thank you to those who didn't rush to judgements and offered advice.
> 
> To the rest of you,  If you're marriage isn't going well, it might be due to a lack of emotional intelligence on your part. Mind-reading, jumping to conclusions, and belittling others is not something people, in general, like very much. If you're interested, check out non-violent communication. Remember, the map is not the territory.
> 
> I am now removing myself from this conversation, unless someone offers some advice that comes from a caring, compassionate place, like a few members have done.


OMG I can sooooo relate. Some peeps around here distort and derail the threads and masquerade it as advice and empathy in the form of tough love...what a load of hogwash!

Bibi


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

i think people are just looking at what you're writing and imagining what they would do if they were in your situation. 

You're not feeling so great about where you are right now already, so when people tell you it might be even worse than you think, that is painful to consider.

It's your right to dismiss it, of course. You're living it.

good luck.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Not a proponent of letting other men bed my wife but have studied the practice a lot.
> 
> It isn't for you two.
> 
> We have a couple of folks on this forum that practice poly or use to and they would clearly nail you two for screwing up.


I wouldn't and didn't. BEING where they are now is not uncommon. What they do with that differentiates them from a successful non-monogamous couple and a divorced couple.



> Learn about monogamy and go to MC together.


And/or learn about responsible non-monogamy.



> Read a couple books by Dr. Harley.
> 
> Your child deserves some grown up parents.
> 
> The small percentage of successful swingers would never risk their primary relationship over a "crush".


And a large percentage have successfully navigated such minor squalls and come out the other side all the better.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Not a proponent of letting other men bed my wife but have studied the practice a lot.
> 
> It isn't for you two.
> 
> ...


The point Texan didn't get from my last post in this thread. In order to be a swinger, you have to be very good at compartmentalizing your feelings and being able to disassociate sex and love. Most people can't do either. I doubt I could do it. We know now that even Texan can't do it. 

It would be interesting to see which one of the two started this convo off to open the marriage.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Texan, your marriage needs a lot of growing up, at least. But it won't happen if you just dismiss all the problem "just because"

My guess your marriage is not as strong as you think it is. I think you are the one more involved. Your wife seems rather immature, and associates you with the baby and losing all the fun in her life, so now the other guy looks like her savior. These are all red flag about the state of your marriage. If you address it head on now, maybe you both will figure out the right way forward. But if you keep pretending all is good, then we will be seeing you here for years and years, with more and more problems building up.


----------



## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

Texan said:


> Thanks for the advice, but I am quite sure the child is mine.


Why oh why is this *always* the answer

You are not quite sure. You trust that the child is yours.


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> It appears that your wife has not fully matured. You indicated that she in essence "doesn't know what she wants to be when she grows up" and this is carrying over into "not sure who I want to spend the rest of my life with". Sadly she is now a mother and deciding she may not want to be one, which I see coming next, will make for a very difficult road ahead.
> 
> As to the open marriage issue, I believe in the vast majority of cases of open marriage it is again, an indicator of immaturity and an inability to commit. *Open marriage is an oxymoron.* Remaining single is a much preferable route so that when one or both "partners" "fall in love" with someone else there is little to dissolve and therefore easier to move on, like when dating.
> ...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Bibi1031 said:


> OMG I can sooooo relate. Some peeps around here distort and derail the threads and masquerade it as advice and empathy in the form of tough love...what a load of hogwash!
> 
> Bibi


Irony. 

You ask for advice, you are going to get some you do not like. If infidelity occurs, saying get a paternity tests is not a derail. Yes, whether he says stop it or not. If posters stopped at the behest of every betrayed, hurt spouse or marriage problem this place would be an echo chamber.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wouldn't and didn't. BEING where they are now is not uncommon. What they do with that differentiates them from a successful non-monogamous couple and a divorced couple.
> 
> 
> And/or learn about responsible non-monogamy.
> ...


I actually had a couple of your posts in mind while responding.

You have stated very strongly that if your primary relationship became endangered by a secondary that you or your primary would eliminate a secondary immediately.
This couple entered into this haphazardly and they are most definitely endangering their relationship by their irresponsible actions and lack thereof.

Lifestyles like yours take far more preparation and extra communication and enforced boundaries to even exist day to day than monogamous relationships.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

snerg said:


> Why oh why is this *always* the answer
> 
> You are not quite sure. You trust that the child is yours.


:banghead:

Quit making A$$umptions and giving unsolicited advice!

Please show some respect.

Bibi


----------



## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Irony.
> 
> You ask for advice, you are going to get some you do not like. If infidelity occurs, saying get a paternity tests is not a derail. Yes, whether he says stop it or not. If posters stopped at the behest of every betrayed, hurt spouse or marriage problem this place would be an echo chamber.


And that's your excuse for such utter disrespect. I'm sorry but that is emotional badgering. 

It's derailing the thread with the excuse of dishing out tough love because a big percentage of the responses focuses on the paternity issue, if that's not a great example of badgering I don't know what is.

Bibi


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Texan, posters are not jumping to conclusion about the paternity of your child. That's how you're interpreting it, understandably, because it's a topic that can easily pit you in a defensive position. 

The reason a paternity test is being recommended, is so that you can do something positive for you - remove all doubt. 

There is a saying here that gets used often. Trust, but verify. Only you can decide if verifying is necessary to qualify the trust you say you have for her. Many here feel that verifying is absolutely necessary to have the complete, indisputable truth, and can then be better informed for deciding what their next steps will be. 

Members here may resort to a pointed delivery because they feel you are doing yourself an injustice by making an assumption, but it is entirely your choice to make, and sometimes other members need to be reminded that what worked for them may not apply to others.


----------



## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Satya said:


> Texan, posters are not jumping to conclusion about the paternity of your child. That's how you're interpreting it, understandably, because it's a topic that can easily pit you in a defensive position.
> 
> The reason a paternity test is being recommended, is so that you can do something positive for you - remove all doubt.
> 
> ...



Now this is respectful and good communication skills. Thank you for helping ME learn how to convey a touchy subject so eloquently. Very useful indeed.

Bibi


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Bibi1031 said:


> And that's your excuse for such utter disrespect.


I didn't tell him to get a paternity test, try harder. You just joined and are already bashing this board, unless this is your 5th or 6th account.



> It's derailing the thread with the excuse of dishing out tough love because a big percentage of the responses focuses on the paternity issue, if that's not a great example of badgering I don't know what is.
> 
> Bibi


That's why I said irony. Badgering is also arguing with posters, telling them how and what to post. Unless you are a mod. Yes, you just caused what you are complaining about.

You aren't a mod or the respect fountain of knowledge. LOL.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Bibi1031 said:


> And that's your excuse for such utter disrespect. I'm sorry but that is emotional badgering.
> 
> It's derailing the thread with the excuse of dishing out tough love because a big percentage of the responses focuses on the paternity issue, if that's not a great example of badgering I don't know what is.
> 
> Bibi


What is your advise, besides yelling at others?


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

OP - if you want to regain attraction from your W, you need to be 1000% sure she is not having a fling. Expressing that she has a crush on someone is likely at least an EA. Which is/can/or will become a PA. She will not come running back to you with open arms if she is mentally or physically with someone else. You need to end this crush and prove that it is not an affair before trying much else or expecting results. That is why so many here are talking about DNA tests. It is just too convenient that you have a 9 month old and your W if having a crush on another man. Too coincidental. And, while in the crush, you won't get her coming back. Chemical bonding of new love is too strong.

Then, you should read NMMNG, MMSLP, and a few other books on how to gain attraction. (You can do these in parallel).


----------



## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

WandaJ said:


> What is your advise, besides yelling at others?


yelling?

I have no advise, but I know very little about Texan's sitch so I want to learn and file it away for when I may need to use it IRL. 

While it's true that I am relatively new here, that could be useful. Many of you are so used to seeing the emotional badgering and derailing around here that you don't even notice it anymore. I do and it really bothers me because I am avidly learning new things here.

We all deserve respect and many around here have confused giving advise with something that has gone completely wrong when we forget to respect one another. 

I'm not a moderator and neither are you, so why bring that up?

Hopefully a moderator will delete all these derailing posts. I most certainly can't.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming :surprise:

Bibi


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I actually had a couple of your posts in mind while responding.
> 
> You have stated very strongly that if your primary relationship became endangered by a secondary that you or your primary would eliminate a secondary immediately.


Yup. But there are a couple of things. 1. We were a lot older and had done some of the requisite growing up having already been achieved. (Together mind you.) 2. The determination to this point did not come at the end of a blunt hammer as being used here.

But to this interesting point. What we had done in the past to which you refer is different than what has happened in more recent time when doubts about our primacy has arisen. Interestingly enough, immediate termination in this recent incident was not the answer. Poly and open are very different. They have to decide what they want to be and how that is going to operate.

I have directed him to a place that I think will be more helpful to him than here. There is a greater understanding of the mindset that someone who would enter into a responsible non-monogamous relationship would have. People who will understand what SHE is feeling without the castigation. People who will understand and accept when he says he trust that the child is his, having experienced that trust and had it rewarded. People who don't fear feelings for another and know how to negotiate THROUGH it to a better place. They are not going to get advice from the perspective of WHAT to do but how to understand each other, how to balance love of the old and comfortable with the excitement of the new and shiny.




> This couple entered into this haphazardly and they are most definitely endangering their relationship by their irresponsible actions and lack thereof.


Whatever. I don't see it that way. They have to decide what road they want to walk.



> Lifestyles like yours take far more preparation and extra communication and enforced boundaries to even exist day to day than monogamous relationships.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


After a few years I would say the exact opposite is the case, looking back. You have no idea how "haphazardly" they "got into this". And your calling them irresponsible is the exact kind of blunt hammer treatment that they don't need.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Bibi1031 said:


> yelling?
> 
> I have no advise, but I know very little about Texan's sitch so I want to learn and file it away for when I may need to use it IRL.
> 
> ...


We all know very little about Texan and we are giving advise based on what he tells us. Him posting on public forum is an invitation to discussion. 

If you do not like the idea of forum, you should not be here. This is place for discussion, exchange of ideas. We will not achieve anything by just nodding our heads in approval. 

*Please stop scolding other posters. *


----------



## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

WandaJ said:


> We all know very little about Texan and we are giving advise based on what he tells us. Him posting on public forum is an invitation to discussion.
> 
> Discussion? Well maybe, but lots of unnecessary beating up so to speak.
> 
> ...



Bibi


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Nobody is showing you a door. but so far you have not contributed anything to the thread, besides distraction.

I am not going to spend any more time on this sub-thread.


----------



## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

WandaJ said:


> Nobody is showing you a door. but so far you have not contributed anything to the thread, besides distraction.
> 
> I am not going to spend any more time on this sub-thread.


Thank you for bowing out, I shall do the same.

I can now read in peace and continue on this regularly scheduled programming :smile2:

Bibi


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Texan said:


> I appreciate your opinion, NoChoice. I hope you recognize it as such. For the record, most of our relationship was not open. It was only something we experimented with for almost a year. You have your opinion about open relationships, but you seem intelligent enough to know that it might not apply to everyone. There are plenty of people who claim that an open relationship works and works well for them. Who are you or anyone to tell them they are full of bovine excrement?
> 
> Marriage, like all relationships, is defined by the people in the relationship. What marriage is to you, may not apply to me. How can it be otherwise?
> 
> Pretend marriage? Please, don't be an anal sphincter. You know very little about my marriage, myself or my wife. So if you're really going to tout Spock as your avatar, stick to what you know or that you can logically deduce.


Logically, one can assume that when an individual takes a solemn vow and then openly chooses to break it, then they either did not possess the intellect necessary to understand and fully comprehend the ramifications of the vow or their word is of no value. If you had done this in a court of law you would have been arrested for perjury, lying under oath.

Additionally, can we logically say that a monogamous, committed relationship is like any other relationship? If so then why does marriage exist? What would be the need for a monogamous, committed relationship if it were just another variation of the same theme. Marriage is the final step in the journey of two people in love and who feel that they are ready and willing to spend the remainder of their lives together.

And lastly, note that you use the word relationship and marriage interchangeably when they are not synonyms. Marriage is a universal institution and as such should be, by definition, the same to everyone. I take no issue with someone being in an open relationship but to be in an open marriage is not possible and therefore is fantasy, no marriage can exist if its defining characteristics are ignored. One cannot be a truthful liar. Also, I happen to know that resorting to name calling is the last act of a desperate person to put forth a point that they could not make otherwise.



Texan said:


> Wow, the disdain. A got a private message telling me that this board was full of bitter, hurt people. And with a few exceptions, I am now in agreement. A genuine thank you to those who didn't rush to judgements and offered advice.
> 
> To the rest of you,  If you're marriage isn't going well, it might be due to a lack of emotional intelligence on your part. Mind-reading, jumping to conclusions, and belittling others is not something people, in general, like very much. If you're interested, check out non-violent communication. Remember, the map is not the territory.
> 
> I am now removing myself from this conversation, unless someone offers some advice that comes from a caring, compassionate place, like a few members have done.


My advice was to make your relationship a marriage and stop pretending to want committed promiscuity. Show your wife that she is special and is indeed all that you need to be happy, content and fulfilled and strive to be the same for her. She does not know that currently.



NobodySpecial said:


> Yup. But there are a couple of things. 1. We were a lot older and had done some of the requisite growing up having already been achieved. (Together mind you.) 2. The determination to this point did not come at the end of a blunt hammer as being used here.
> 
> But to this interesting point. What we had done in the past to which you refer is different than what has happened in more recent time when doubts about our primacy has arisen. Interestingly enough, immediate termination in this recent incident was not the answer. Poly and open are very different. They have to decide what they want to be and how that is going to operate.
> 
> ...


Interesting.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> Logically, one can assume that when an individual takes a solemn vow and then openly chooses to break it, then they either did not possess the intellect necessary to understand and fully comprehend the ramifications of the vow or their word is of no value. If you had done this in a court of law you would have been arrested for perjury, lying under oath.


I wonder what the law requires for an oath for marriage. Probably a whole lot less than most churches. Something amounting to sign here.

Anyway some of us vow to something rather different than transitional. Instead of vowing to the institution, we vow to each other. I love my husband so much that on the day that I am not right for him, I will send him on his way with a heavy heart. But I will help him pack his things, work with him on the best way to raise our kids together, hug him and ask him to let me know how to help him be happy. He feels the same. We don't have to worry about promises. We KNOW where we stand. I don't have to worry about whether or not he falls in love with someone else. I know him. I know he will. And I NEVER have to worry about him stopping loving me in favor of someone else. Been there, done that. And now have the trust to prove it. 



> Interesting.


I don't think anyone would argue the appeal of the new and shiny. Human nature? I don't know. But certainly real. The better part of this board is dedicated to how to avoid it, condemn it, block ones mate from experiencing it. Responsible non-monogamous people simply choose a different way to experience that part of life.

To the question what is marriage? It is what we make it.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Responsible non-monogamous people simply choose a different way to experience that part of life.
> 
> To the question what is marriage? It is what we make it.


Folks can say whatever they want but you cannot have sex with a person and experience that kind of closeness and pleasure without transferring "feelings" from another relationship. If that were possible, there wouldn't be the so called "red flags" that disclose a spouses indiscretions. It would be interesting to see some stats on the percentage of open marriages that survive even an intermediate length of time. 
In the meantime, if Tex, et.al. cannot connect the dots between his wife experssing some interest in having some sexual adventures, her crush on another man, her loss of romantic interest in her husband and an open marriage, ain't a lot more the say. Goes back to my premise all along; when a woman has a high romantic interest in you, they don't sleep with other guys. Again, I welcome women to school me if I'm wrong. Guys, don't bother. What you say lacks validity unless directly supported by a woman.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yup. But there are a couple of things. 1. We were a lot older and had done some of the requisite growing up having already been achieved. (Together mind you.) 2. The determination to this point did not come at the end of a blunt hammer as being used here.
> 
> But to this interesting point. What we had done in the past to which you refer is different than what has happened in more recent time when doubts about our primacy has arisen. Interestingly enough, immediate termination in this recent incident was not the answer. Poly and open are very different. They have to decide what they want to be and how that is going to operate.
> 
> ...


You don't understand the level of respect I have offered. If you want to be taken seriously by me at all then don't flip and try to say your relationship wasn't as solid as you portrayed. You shared your mechanics to a rightfully dubious crowd a while back and I was paying attention.

You seriously downplay the dangers of your lifestyle and even claim, without any solid evidence, that your lifestyle is actually more solid than mine. Utter rubbish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Folks can say whatever they want but you cannot have sex with a person and experience that kind of closeness and pleasure without transferring "feelings" from another relationship.


That's the point that I was making about the differentiation in mindset. This is accepted and not avoided. This is why I pointed him to a different source of advice where they would be more empathetic and able to understand his point of view.



> If that were possible, there wouldn't be the so called "red flags" that disclose a spouses indiscretions. It would be interesting to see some stats on the percentage of open marriages that survive even an intermediate length of time.
> In the meantime, if Tex, et.al. cannot connect the dots between his wife experssing some interest in having some sexual adventures, her crush on another man, her loss of romantic interest in her husband and an open marriage, ain't a lot more the say.


Do you have reason to think that he does not understand the connection? I don't.



> Goes back to my premise all along; when a woman has a high romantic interest in you, they don't sleep with other guys.


Not my experience in the slightest.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> You don't understand the level of respect I have offered. If you want to be taken seriously by me at all then don't flip and try to say your relationship wasn't as solid as you portrayed. You shared your mechanics to a rightfully dubious crowd a while back and I was paying attention.


I have no idea what this means. However I offended, it was not intentional.



> You seriously downplay the dangers of your lifestyle and even claim, without any solid evidence, that your lifestyle is actually more solid than mine. Utter rubbish.


I have exactly NO IDEA how solid your relationship, so such a comparison would be moronic, and one I did not make. I don't downplay the dangers. Been there, done that. I simply advised him to seek advise where his point of view would be understood. Then you presumed to speak for polys on here, apparently me. How you can know what I would or would not do, would or would not say from a handful of responses in some already constructed context I cannot begin to imagine.

_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Ok NS, it goes to several post he made. By his own admission, his feels his wife's "crush" is less intense than actually sleeping with someone and as a result of this open relationship, he develops feeling for another woman. Yet he continues to point out in following post that between the right people, open marriages work. Apparently he has failed to realize that the open marriage may be a little more habit forming for his wife than for him. Maybe what I should have said is he doesn't seem to be calling the shots on when the open part ends and mono part begins. He's calling it childish and immature.

Regarding your response, "Not my experience in the slightest." are you male or female? 

Ref:


Texan said:


> She never slept with him. That's why she considers it a crush and not anything more intense. And for the record I did develop feelings for one woman that I slept with, and it's not about compartementalizing my life. I made a choice.
> 
> And I say that my wife is being immature about this because she's considering chasing some crush to the detriment of her family. I think that's childish, impulsive. Don't you?


----------



## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I agree that she should not divorce you over something like not being fun to be around. Last time I checked marriage is for better or worse. She should allow both of you time to work on this. Since you agree that you need to be less high strung, I think you guys should work on this. It's not like you are denying there is a problem and not willing do to anything. I would stand your ground about not getting a divorce.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> You don't understand the level of respect I have offered. ]



To be clear I think we are having a misunderstanding born of the lack of written tone. I don't think I understand what you are saying. And you seem to be pissed at what I said. But I can't tell what I said that would have pissed you off. Sorry. Did not mean to be ... what did you say...flip?


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

jb02157 said:


> I agree that she should not divorce you over something like not being fun to be around. Last time I checked marriage is for better or worse.


She ain't wanting to divorce him because he's not fun to be around. She's wanting to divorce him because she's lost interest in him and don't want to waste any more time tied to someone who turns down her thermometer. (which makes him not fun to be around)


----------



## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

If you go over to "coping with infidelity" you will find the same situations in closed relationships...The wife develops resentment toward the husband, someone pays her some attention, and wifey gives the ILYBNILWY speech....

Yes you can reason them into staying for a short time, but she is probably going to be gone for good. Your "open" relationship just made it easier....Since she had your permission to go outside the marriage, she feels ZERO remorse....Boy did you screw up...


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> NoChoice said:
> 
> 
> > Logically, one can assume that when an individual takes a solemn vow and then openly chooses to break it, then they either did not possess the intellect necessary to understand and fully comprehend the ramifications of the vow or their word is of no value. If you had done this in a court of law you would have been arrested for perjury, lying under oath.
> ...


I sincerely do not mean to criticize, judge nor condemn since it is not my place nor do I feel inclined to do so. What I say I say as it pertains to me. I posted an analogy once comparing infidelity to car ownership wherein the car owner becomes tired and bored with the car that, just a few years prior, gave them a thrill and caused great excitement.

To apply that here, Once a decision is made as to the need and fulfillment thereof by an automobile the purchase is completed. If great care is taken of that car it will continue to meet those needs for many, many years. I do not pass a new car dealership and drool over the new models because I am content with my decision and very happy to have the model I chose.

I see no point in desiring more and even going to the dealership and test driving many different models just for the fun of it. I could be involved in an accident while on a test drive and then I would have introduced another level of complexity that simply was not necessary. If my choice was careful and deliberate, my needs are met with my model and I have no need for more.

It really has to do with contentment and commitment. It seems difficult to live life with the ever present knowledge that your SO may find a model they like better and that you would have to, with a heavy heart, let them pursue their "new and shiny". I see no logic in marrying if that is to be the case. If your love is transient then to what purpose are vows exchanged. I find it counter intuitive to desire emotional monogamy while trying to experience sexual diversity when they are so close to inseparable.

Additionally, I would not want someone driving my new car.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> I sincerely do not mean to criticize, judge nor condemn since it is not my place nor do I feel inclined to do so. What I say I say as it pertains to me. I posted an analogy once comparing infidelity to car ownership wherein the car owner becomes tired and bored with the car that, just a few years prior, gave them a thrill and caused great excitement.
> 
> To apply that here, Once a decision is made as to the need and fulfillment thereof by an automobile the purchase is completed. If great care is taken of that car it will continue to meet those needs for many, many years. I do not pass a new car dealership and drool over the new models because I am content with my decision and very happy to have the model I chose.
> 
> I see no point in desiring more and even going to the dealership and test driving many different models just for the fun of it. I could be involved in an accident while on a test drive and then I would have introduced another level of complexity that simply was not necessary. If my choice was careful and deliberate, my needs are met with my model and I have no need for more.


Know thyself! Which is great. Nothing wrong there.

This whole board is premised on the assumption that loving one MEANS not loving another... car. I mean person.  Which is not how a lot of us operate. Looking at a different model does not lessen the love one feels for their previous car in the least. But when you first experience this after being raised to think of one man one car, it can be a bit to handle. Which is EXACTLY why I directed them to places where people

1. Don't assume that to love one person is to NOT love any one else.
2. Have experienced learning why and how it is valuable to not forget the partner who lights your slower fire.




> It really has to do with contentment and commitment. It seems difficult to live life with the ever present knowledge that your SO may find a model they like better and that you would have to, with a heavy heart, let them pursue their "new and shiny".


Not quite. I said if I were not for him. He has had plenty of new and shiny loves. That does not make me boring or tiring. 



> I see no logic in marrying if that is to be the case. If your love is transient then to what purpose are vows exchanged. I find it counter intuitive to desire emotional monogamy while trying to experience sexual diversity when they are so close to inseparable.


That is a bit off topic for this thread since this particular poster and his wife have both experienced emotional diversity. And the term used is responsible NON monogamy for a reason. It isn't monogamy. Which is why I sent them to a group for whom it is not counter intuitive.



> Additionally, I would not want someone driving my new car.


Cars can be owned. People can't. But in any event, lots of people don't feel that way. That poster was one of them.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Good analogy. Anyway you cut it, the bottom line is, "open marriage = my spouse just don't satisfy me and I need something else"


Would you take it for someone who has been in responsible non monogamous relationships for about 12 years, all 12 of them with my husband, that that is not, actually, the bottom line at all? Those 12 being the later of the our 24 year long relationship? That just because you have not experienced it does not mean that the experience is not there for other people?


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> I see no point in desiring more and even going to the dealership and test driving many different models just for the fun of it.


Good analogy. Anyway you cut it, the bottom line is, "open marriage = my spouse just don't satisfy me and I need something else"



NobodySpecial said:


> But in any event, lots of people don't feel that way. That poster was one of them.


How's that working out for him?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Good analogy. Anyway you cut it, the bottom line is, "open marriage = my spouse just don't satisfy me and I need something else"
> 
> 
> 
> How's that working out for him?


Notice he hasn't been back. I have no idea. I can only tell you how it has worked for us.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Texan said:


> I'm a trained clown and improviser so making people laugh is something I have a lot of experience in.


This week on Maury Povich..... 

A circus clown from Texas, marries a European and moves to Asia to be in an open relationship with her. He's now mad because she has a "crush" on a guy and swears he's the father of their child.

Stay tuned for the DNA results after a word from our sponsors.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

I think you've got this thing figured out BD.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Logging in just so I can see the outcome.

In other discussions, OP, have you read the book His Needs Her Needs yet? Since you're unwilling to believe she's cheating on you, for whatever ridiculous reason, you can at least read HNHN and learn what your marriage was SUPPOSED to look like. Once you know that, you can take a good hard look at your marriage and see what she's been missing from you.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> This week on Maury Povich.....
> 
> A circus clown from Texas, marries a European and moves to Asia to be in an open relationship with her. He's now mad because she has a "crush" on a guy and swears he's the father of their child.
> 
> Stay tuned for the DNA results after a word from our sponsors.


I needed a good laugh. Controlling emotions can be exhausting.


----------

