# Separation; better to live apart to reconcile??



## knowfiguy

Hi All, I apologize for the winded post!

Last summer my wife broke the news to me she would like a separation. I was devastated, we have two small children who I cant bear the thought of not seeing them daily. After a week or so, I told her I would do what she needed so that we could separate 'peacefully'. Then she stood up crying and said she didn't want to do it, and wanted to keep trying. A weight lifted of my shoulders.

About 2 months later she received a promotion which would move her out of state. I have the ability to work from home so I reluctantly said go for it. She really wanted to take this opportunity for her career. I wanted to support it. We moved from MN to IA, not a huge change but enough when I'm very close to my family and see them a lot with my kids. We moved last fall.

She would bill this move as a way to really focus on our relationship and US. It sounded great, until we moved and she would spend most weekends driving back home to hang out with friends and when she wasn't driving back she was working weekends, she works retail.

In the end Iowa turned out to be a dud and maximized my loneliness by being a work at home dad, who then always took care of the kids/house duties. She had made friends with co workers so they would usually go out 1-2 a week, grab food and drinks. Or check out the city during the weekend. Meanwhile, I was at home with the kids, because someone has to do it.

A week into 2015, after an argument about money, she tells me that she wants a separation. She changed all her pwd's, FB username, ignored me, etc. I should note her financially irresponsibility and spending habits have been extremely detrimental to our family since we married in 2008.

This time around I'm still pretty hurt, but no where near the first time. She wants to be cordial and co parent for the kids. OK fine. I dot hate her, nor do I think there is a cheating element to this. About a month after she sprung this on me I was telling her I found a Studio apt that I could afford while still helping with household bills and she asked me not to move, but she still wanted the separation. (She is open to reconcile organically). 

We both live in our home still its been over 5 months. We both are making arrangements for our own housing back home in MN, as we will be moving back in June/July. Yet we still sleep in the same bed, and sometimes have sex. At times, she'll want to hug me or cuddle in bed and hold my hand. I took it overboard right when this started happening a month after she told me she wanted out. Which pushed her away. Then I pulled way back and she started reaching out to me for affection.

We live in this crazy middle ground. Neither of us are looking outside the marriage for partners during this. And most of the time I want to reconcile. However what this has done is opened my eyes to her flaws that need to be worked on rather then me believing the onus was all on my to improve or be a better husband.

I have a list of items of compiled mentally and plan to speak with her about as they affect my happiness. I'm not sure what I'm looking for here, but just needed to get my thoughts out. Sometimes, I just think it would be easier without her and dealing with seeing my kids 50/50. We still can make each other happy, I've seen it will having to live with her until we can get back to MN. But we can also still get into it and she has a serious issue with holding onto little arguments.

Do you all think once we get our separate apartments its over? I've read that reconciliation is basically dead if your not living together and able to work on the marriage daily. 

Thanks All!


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## SecondTime'Round

knowfiguy said:


> Neither of us are looking outside the marriage for partners during this.


Are ya sure??


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## knowfiguy

SecondTime'Round said:


> Are ya sure??


Never say never, but I don't believe she is. Obviously anything could be happening.


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## toonaive

Yea. This is familiar territory for me. You need to watch very carefully what she is doing with her time outside the home. You are giving the free space for your wife to explore life without you, and quite possibly without the children. Your wife spending so much time outside of work "playing" is extremely dangerous for your marriage and family.


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## knowfiguy

toonaive said:


> Yea. This is familiar territory for me. You need to watch very carefully what she is doing with her time outside the home. You are giving the free space for your wife to explore life without you, and quite possibly without the children. Your wife spending so much time outside of work "playing" is extremely dangerous for your marriage and family.


I'm sure your right on this. This has been a point of arguments before for us. Once we married, I felt like it should of changed my behavior and started spending more time at home, even more so when we had kids. I don't make plans to be away from the house unless the kids are going to be gone. She doesn't see it this way, to her its all about what age is she. Depending on what year we'd have this argument she would say "I'm doing what any other normal ,INSERT AGE HERE, does." News flash, your now married with two kids by 25. Your no longer the normal mid to upper 20 year old female.


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## knowfiguy

Hi Sargon,

I dont want to get it wrong, I adore my children. Nor do I consider it a chore to be with them. I may have worded that wrong. I just think that she would want to be around the kids like I do. I don't think its right to make the decision to have 2 kids and then not be around for them.

To your other point, yes she is the one who initiated the 'separation'. But I want to make sure that if we are able to reconcile that we do it right. Some of the things that she hates about our relationship are direct reactions of mine from her own actions.

I don't want to go through this again, so I'd rather everything be out on the table.


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## zillard

knowfiguy said:


> Last summer my wife broke the news to me she would like a separation. I was devastated, we have two small children who I cant bear the thought of not seeing them daily. After a week or so, I told her I would do what she needed so that we could separate 'peacefully'. Then she stood up crying and said she didn't want to do it, and wanted to keep trying. A weight lifted of my shoulders.


She likely wanted you to flip out and beg her not to separate, which would have pushed her away. Instead you said OK, so she got scared and flip flopped. 

I wouldn't doubt if there was already an EA going on at this point.



knowfiguy said:


> About 2 months later she received a promotion which would move her out of state. I have the ability to work from home so I reluctantly said go for it. She really wanted to take this opportunity for her career. I wanted to support it. We moved from MN to IA, not a huge change but enough when I'm very close to my family and see them a lot with my kids. We moved last fall.
> 
> She would bill this move as a way to really focus on our relationship and US. It sounded great, until we moved and she would spend most weekends driving back home to hang out with friends and when she wasn't driving back she was working weekends, she works retail.


Likely the EA started to fizzle, or she came to her senses. However, she missed the attention she was getting before, so made excuses to go back to visit "friends". Regardless of just GF's or not, her focus is still elsewhere, not on you or your family. Fog.



knowfiguy said:


> In the end Iowa turned out to be a dud and maximized my loneliness by being a work at home dad, who then always took care of the kids/house duties. She had made friends with co workers so they would usually go out 1-2 a week, grab food and drinks. Or check out the city during the weekend. Meanwhile, I was at home with the kids, because someone has to do it.


You turned yourself into a doormat, respected yourself less, and became less attractive. Why keep going out of state if she can recreate the same conditions that get her the validation fix here in the new state. You're going to put up with it and even clean the house while she's out living it up, so why not? I did the exact same thing. It doesn't work. The time with the kids is good for the bond there, but you're teaching them to be doormats (or absentee parents) too.



knowfiguy said:


> A week into 2015, after an argument about money, she tells me that she wants a separation. She changed all her pwd's, FB username, ignored me, etc. I should note her financially irresponsibility and spending habits have been extremely detrimental to our family since we married in 2008.
> 
> This time around I'm still pretty hurt, but no where near the first time. She wants to be cordial and co parent for the kids. OK fine. I dot hate her, nor do I think there is a cheating element to this. About a month after she sprung this on me I was telling her I found a Studio apt that I could afford while still helping with household bills and she asked me not to move, but she still wanted the separation. (She is open to reconcile organically).


Likly another EA, if not PA going on before she asked for separation again. You found a place and reality starts to hit. If you move out, who's going to watch the kids, clean for her, and pay the bills? She won't have any time left for cake eating! 



knowfiguy said:


> We both live in our home still its been over 5 months. We both are making arrangements for our own housing back home in MN, as we will be moving back in June/July. Yet we still sleep in the same bed, and sometimes have sex. At times, she'll want to hug me or cuddle in bed and hold my hand. I took it overboard right when this started happening a month after she told me she wanted out. Which pushed her away. Then I pulled way back and she started reaching out to me for affection.


She doesn't need to be as close as you, because she's getting validation elsewhere. But the he!! if she's going to like not getting validation from you too. 



knowfiguy said:


> We live in this crazy middle ground.


Are you ok with that?



knowfiguy said:


> Neither of us are looking outside the marriage for partners during this.


 You don't know that for sure, do you?



knowfiguy said:


> And most of the time I want to reconcile. However what this has done is opened my eyes to her flaws that need to be worked on rather then me believing the onus was all on my to improve or be a better husband.
> 
> I have a list of items of compiled mentally and plan to speak with her about as they affect my happiness. I'm not sure what I'm looking for here, but just needed to get my thoughts out. Sometimes, I just think it would be easier without her and dealing with seeing my kids 50/50. We still can make each other happy, I've seen it will having to live with her until we can get back to MN. But we can also still get into it and she has a serious issue with holding onto little arguments.
> 
> Do you all think once we get our separate apartments its over? I've read that reconciliation is basically dead if your not living together and able to work on the marriage daily.
> 
> Thanks All!


Are you ok with this relationship as-is? If not, something needs to change. You have no control over her behavior nor her level of involvement/effort/commitment. 

Look up the 180 and start it now. Do not move out of the family home unless you want to give her the upper hand in possible divorce. I would start filling out divorce papers and let her see you doing it. You don't have to file em, but look at her reactions both times you said ok to separation. Let her know you're serious, that your needs are not being met, what you are not ok with - but only after she initiates a discussion about the relationship. Until she starts one, YDGAF.


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## zillard

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/60683-what-do-i-dont-know.html

Do a little reading here and see if any of it sounds familiar.


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## GusPolinski

knowfiguy said:


> Hi All, I apologize for the winded post!
> 
> Last summer my wife broke the news to me she would like a separation. I was devastated, we have two small children who I cant bear the thought of not seeing them daily. After a week or so, I told her I would do what she needed so that we could separate 'peacefully'. Then she stood up crying and said she didn't want to do it, and wanted to keep trying. A weight lifted of my shoulders.
> 
> About 2 months later she received a promotion which would move her out of state. I have the ability to work from home so I reluctantly said go for it. She really wanted to take this opportunity for her career. I wanted to support it. We moved from MN to IA, not a huge change but enough when I'm very close to my family and see them a lot with my kids. We moved last fall.
> 
> She would bill this move as a way to really focus on our relationship and US. It sounded great, until we moved and she would spend most weekends driving back home to hang out with friends and when she wasn't driving back she was working weekends, she works retail.
> 
> In the end Iowa turned out to be a dud and maximized my loneliness by being a work at home dad, who then always took care of the kids/house duties. She had made friends with co workers so they would usually go out 1-2 a week, grab food and drinks. Or check out the city during the weekend. Meanwhile, I was at home with the kids, because someone has to do it.
> 
> A week into 2015, after an argument about money, she tells me that she wants a separation. *She changed all her pwd's, FB username, ignored me, etc.* I should note her financially irresponsibility and spending habits have been extremely detrimental to our family since we married in 2008.
> 
> This time around I'm still pretty hurt, but no where near the first time. She wants to be cordial and co parent for the kids. OK fine. I dot hate her, nor do I think there is a cheating element to this. About a month after she sprung this on me I was telling her I found a Studio apt that I could afford while still helping with household bills and she asked me not to move, but she still wanted the separation. (She is open to reconcile organically).
> 
> We both live in our home still its been over 5 months. We both are making arrangements for our own housing back home in MN, as we will be moving back in June/July. Yet we still sleep in the same bed, and sometimes have sex. At times, she'll want to hug me or cuddle in bed and hold my hand. I took it overboard right when this started happening a month after she told me she wanted out. Which pushed her away. Then I pulled way back and she started reaching out to me for affection.
> 
> We live in this crazy middle ground. Neither of us are looking outside the marriage for partners during this. And most of the time I want to reconcile. However what this has done is opened my eyes to her flaws that need to be worked on rather then me believing the onus was all on my to improve or be a better husband.
> 
> I have a list of items of compiled mentally and plan to speak with her about as they affect my happiness. I'm not sure what I'm looking for here, but just needed to get my thoughts out. Sometimes, I just think it would be easier without her and dealing with seeing my kids 50/50. We still can make each other happy, I've seen it will having to live with her until we can get back to MN. But we can also still get into it and she has a serious issue with holding onto little arguments.
> 
> Do you all think once we get our separate apartments its over? I've read that reconciliation is basically dead if your not living together and able to work on the marriage daily.
> 
> Thanks All!


Affair. Maybe not now, but definitely then.


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## knowfiguy

Thanks for the input everyone. He's a little twist to the story, we argued a bit lats night/today about money I gave her to pay daycare. When I went to get he kids the next day we still owed a balance. I was pissed. When confronted she was swore she paid it all and then was very defensive and lost her mind.

I brought it up again today when our key code to the school didnt work and I couldn't check in the kids. She flipped out and refused to talk about it. I asked her to atleast call the center. An hour later I get a call from a local credit union looking for her. I texted her letting her know and her reply was " I think you should move home".

I've been looking forward to moving home for awhile now. but she knows I will not go anywhere without the kids. I tell her so, and then she tells me to take the kids. That it'll kill her, but living together isn't worth it.

Maybe I'm crazy here but when isn't it ever worth it to be with your kids. I'm not abusing, I dont touch her, I dont control her, I've swore at her once in 7 years of marriage. 

I'm getting my plan in place to try and move out this weekend. I might have to stay with family until I can find a suitable apartment. I will be giving her portion of the rent to help keep the lease here from being unpaid and ruining my credit.


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## zillard

With the financial weirdness, this could be addiction related (whether or not there has been any infidelity). 

If she's told you to take the kids with you, I'd do it. But talk to a lawyer!!

Stay with family for now. This doesn't mean you can't work out a decent co-parenting plan down the road, or that she'll never be involved with them. But right now she is clearly not stable. She knows it, and knows that you are. 

This is SOO similar to what I went through. You have an opportunity right now to protect yourself and your children - take it.


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## zillard

And no, it doesn't sound like you're crazy. It sounds like she has problems. That's out of your control. 

Do what you can for you and the kiddos.


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## zillard

I want to stress again that you should talk to a lawyer before leaving the state with the kids. If not done right, you could be shooting yourself in the foot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knowfiguy

zillard said:


> I want to stress again that you should talk to a lawyer before leaving the state with the kids. If not done right, you could be shooting yourself in the foot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Zillard. That did cross my mind shortly after she told me. I'll get a consult setup asap. I'm heartbroken for my kids. She will drive up on her days off to visit and see them but good lord. It was always something I never thought I'd do to my kids. Considering my parents split when I was little.

Any night when she's working late or not home. They always ask for her. "Daddy, when will mommy be home. I miss mommy". I'm just glad my family is very close and hopefully being around them alot will help ease everything.


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## zillard

knowfiguy said:


> Thanks Zillard. That did cross my mind shortly after she told me. I'll get a consult setup asap. I'm heartbroken for my kids. She will drive up on her days off to visit and see them but good lord. It was always something I never thought I'd do to my kids. Considering my parents split when I was little.


Yeah, want to make sure you CYA in case she changes her mind and tries to issue amber alert, etc. People do unpredictable, and out-of-character things during separation and divorce. I was able to get divorce papers and custody agreement signed by her and filed before I moved, which helped. 

Keep in mind that NOT doing this to your kids is up to both of you. Without the same commitment from her, is out of your hands. Unless you stay, which could be worse for them if the household isn't a happy, loving environment. Again, takes two to maintain that in a marriage. You CAN provide that without her.



knowfiguy said:


> Any night when she's working late or not home. They always ask for her. "Daddy, when will mommy be home. I miss mommy". I'm just glad my family is very close and hopefully being around them alot will help ease everything.


I feel for you. Been there. I moved to another state with my daughter, then 7, to be closer to family too. I can tell you from experience that being around uncles, aunts, cousins, grandparents, is very helpful for kids. Keeps them busy and feeling loved. Easier to adjust. 

Child therapists specializing in "Play Therapy" is very helpful too. Something to think about after you've arrived.

Another thing to consider is state divorce laws and if one or the other is friendlier to fathers. If it is going to happen, you could do better in one state vs the other.


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## knowfiguy

zillard said:


> I feel for you. Been there. I moved to another state with my daughter, then 7, to be closer to family too. I can tell you from experience that being around uncles, aunts, cousins, grandparents, is very helpful for kids. Keeps them busy and feeling loved. Easier to adjust.
> 
> Child therapists specializing in "Play Therapy" is very helpful too. Something to think about after you've arrived.


Do you mind letting me know how your daughter handled it initially? Maybe what I should be expecting? My daughter (4) is more attached to my wife so I think she'll have the hardest time. My son (3) is more of a daddys boy.


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## zillard

knowfiguy said:


> Do you mind letting me know how your daughter handled it initially? Maybe what I should be expecting? My daughter (4) is more attached to my wife so I think she'll have the hardest time. My son (3) is more of a daddys boy.


The biggest change for my daughter was when her mother went back to work. She was a SAHM until kiddo was in school. When she went back, she was working swing shift. Due to that, their time together dropped drastically (1/2 hour or so inbetween Kindergarten release and her leaving for work, then weekends).

D had a hard time with that transition. She started getting up at night to go pee every half hour to hour. At first until her mom got home, then through the night, then the habit stretched into the days and she was going to the bathroom upwards of 5 times during a half day kindergarten (usually not peeing, but feeling the urge). This was a nervous reaction to a feeling of loss of control of the mommy situation. She could control when she visits the bathroom, and at night that increased her chances of seeing mom, so did that more frequently. This gave her more control but didn't fix the situation, so increased in frequency, subconsciously.

I had to combat that with a graduated reward system. X amount of bathroom visits at night earns a reward. Once that goal was reached, step down the number of visits and repeat. Once this was done the daytime bathroom visits at school tapered down and fixed themselves naturally. 

During that time and also after the split, she began drawing her mother more often, and her and her mother together. Increased in frequency and drawings of me or her and I dropped to zero. This had nothing to do with me, or her love for me, but was an attempt by her to solicit an emotional response from her mother. There wasn't a need for that with me, as I was around a lot more. This type of thing should not be discouraged, but steps to encourage mother to praise these and fulfill that need are good. 

Taking pics of them and sending them to mom, showing daughter the response, etc are good. 

It's advisable to take a unified approach to informing them of the split, though more necessary when a bit older. We sat down and talked to her about it together. No blame or animosity allowed, just facts, empathy, and answering any and all questions honestly (age appropriate, of course). 

Always repeatedly stress that this is not their fault, they can't do anything to change it, and both parents love them and always will.
When you feel that you've done that enough, do it more! Kids are mini narcissists and believe everything is about them. Reassure them that this is not. 

Emotionally they can't understand the situation. Expect many questions about logistics, little details. What toys can I take? Where will I sleep? Will I have two beds? etc. etc. Never discourage these questions and answer them nicely even if the repetition gets irritating. Then ask if they have any more. 

Kids thrive on structure. Schedules are important. It was very helpful for D when I got different colored magnets to put on the calendar visually representing mom days and dad days so she knew what to expect. That way she didn't have to stress about that and instead could get excited about it. 

Never refer to their mom as your "ex" around them. She is not their "ex" mom. 

Never say anything negative about their mom around them. If they are in the same house, expect them to hear everything. Don't bad mouth her in the other room with family or friends. If family or friends start any of that, shut them up immediately. It's not acceptable. 

Kids are mini humans. They aren't emotionally mature, but will have all the same emotions that adults have. After a split, there will be a mourning process. Mourning the old setup. This comes with all the normal emotions - anger, fear, denial, sadness, and bartering. Expect them to try to do and say things to "fix" you two. Remind them again that it is not their fault, and because it's not their fault, they can't fix it. Because it's not their fault. 

It was helpful for D and I to do a frequent "feelings pie chart". Literally drawing a circle and both dividing it into slices of anger, sadness, happiness, etc. and discussing them - as long as D was comfortable doing so. I remind her that any feeling is always ok. Talking about it is always ok. And if she wants to just think and not talk, that's ok too. The pie charts are never a requirement, but when she's up to it they are a great conversation starter and quickly lets us get to the nitty gritty in a safe way.


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## zillard

Expect them to be more picky at meal times. This is again a place where they want to exert some control to make up for the lack of control over the situation. 

During the transition, it is more important to let these little things go so they can have their way with something. 

It can be controlled though, by having a couple options ready that you approve of them eating. No, ice cream for dinner won't cut it. But you can have A. B. or C. That way they can feel control while all three are good options. 

Extend this into other areas as well. You can pick the toys for bath time, you can pick out one of these new toothbrushes, but you will take a bath and you will brush your teeth.


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## zillard

Another important thing is to make sure they have a transitional object. Something that represents mom that they can be attached to. During our move it was gifts from mom, a blanket she made for her that she still sleeps with. Also for my then 7yo was a separate cell phone so they could communicate without involving me. It was only for mom calls. Later that became less important and was able to drop that line.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knowfiguy

Thank you for all the great advice and insight. Last night my daughter cuddled with mom for awhile before bed and cried with her. I still love my wife and having to watch my baby and wife cry about seeing each other killed me. I realized this was her choice as she asked me to move out knowing I wasn't going unless the kids came with.

Luckily today, my kids last day at daycare/preschool, they have a field trip to the circus. This really helped everyone keep a good mood and focused on the fun things. Before we leave on Saturday, my wife is going to come home on her lunch break to see the kids off. I'm sure that'll be emotional on her. Yesterday they made bracelets with mom. Thinking maybe those can be the 'transitional' items. 

I hate that this is what its come down to right now. I'm really looking forward to her getting back up here so at least the kids can be closer to her, even if I cant.


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## zillard

knowfiguy said:


> Thank you for all the great advice and insight. Last night my daughter cuddled with mom for awhile before bed and cried with her. I still love my wife and having to watch my baby and wife cry about seeing each other killed me. I realized this was her choice as she asked me to move out knowing I wasn't going unless the kids came with.
> 
> Luckily today, my kids last day at daycare/preschool, they have a field trip to the circus. This really helped everyone keep a good mood and focused on the fun things. Before we leave on Saturday, my wife is going to come home on her lunch break to see the kids off. I'm sure that'll be emotional on her. Yesterday they made bracelets with mom. Thinking maybe those can be the 'transitional' items.
> 
> I hate that this is what its come down to right now. I'm really looking forward to her getting back up here so at least the kids can be closer to her, even if I cant.


The bracelets were a good move, regardless of who's idea that was. And it's great that she'll be coming home to see them off. The child psych we saw recommended my X participate in that too. It was incredibly emotional for them both; be prepared for that. I'm sure you've got toys and movies, etc for the ride - stuff to keep them occupied. I was glad I was driving the moving truck and daughter was in a car with my brother as I broke down too when driving away. 

But remember, even though your kids need a rock, they also need to know that you're human. Seeing their father tear up isn't going to kill em. 

And yes, this was her choice. Your choice is to take care of your kids and also not accept things as they are. What she does with that is up to her. But dam straight it hurts like he!!.


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## weightlifter

Uh. If she gave off any more red flags you would be in a communist party rally.

Wake up.

Please.


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