# Help avoiding affair



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Not sure if this is in the right place as I haven't been unfaithful...yet. I have become infatuated with a woman that I work with and I cannot get myself over it. 

She is a friend on FB and I find myself checking if she is online all day. I don't want to do anything that will damage my family or hers, but feel that I am on a slippery slope that ends in heartbreak for all. 

Has anyone found an effective ways of getting over infatuation?


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

jamesa said:


> Not sure if this is in the right place as I haven't been unfaithful...yet. I have become infatuated with a woman that I work with and I cannot get myself over it.
> 
> She is a friend on FB and I find myself checking if she is online all day. I don't want to do anything that will damage my family or hers, but feel that I am on a slippery slope that ends in heartbreak for all.
> 
> Has anyone found an effective ways of getting over infatuation?


Cast OW out of your mind and get infatuated with your wife?

Bob


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

If it was that easy I would have done it by now and wouldn't need to come here for advice.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You are wise to identify this as a problem. If I knew I was infatuated with some other woman, I would delete her off my FB account. All adultary begins in the mind. You have to see her at work but you don't have to hang out with her or be unnecessarily chatty with her.


----------



## dblkman (Jul 14, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> You are wise to identify this as a problem. If I knew I was infatuated with some other woman, I would delete her off my FB account. All adultary begins in the mind. You have to see her at work but you don't have to hang out with her or be unnecessarily chatty with her.


I agree, the less you see her the better. Avoid her at as much as possible, even when at work, use a different door, hopefully there is more then one way of reaching your work area and hopefully you do not have to work closely with her.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Thanks for the advice, unfortunately I can't avoid her at work, It is a small business and I am the owner, but I can delete her of FB and try and keep contact 100% professional. 

She is very 'touchy' though and each touch is like an electric shock to me. Do you think admitting to her how I feel and asking her to keep it professional is wise?


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

jamesa said:


> If it was that easy I would have done it by now and wouldn't need to come here for advice.


Worked for me in 40 years of marriage.

Reckon we all “click” with other women at times in our lives when we’re married. Mainly when the “chemistry” of what we see is on overdrive. Sometimes the amount of chemistry we feel draws us like a powerful magnet to them.

But if you can’t resist that pull, if you don’t have the will power, then I reckon you’re in for a very rough ride indeed with your marriage.

Think on this. Your wife probably gets hit on 100 times more than you ever will. If she can resist her urges then surely you owe her the same.

Bob


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

jamesa said:


> Not sure if this is in the right place as I haven't been unfaithful...yet. I have become infatuated with a woman that I work with and I cannot get myself over it.
> 
> She is a friend on FB and I find myself checking if she is online all day. I don't want to do anything that will damage my family or hers, but feel that I am on a slippery slope that ends in heartbreak for all.
> 
> Has anyone found an effective ways of getting over infatuation?


Why did you hire her in the first place? Surely you knew then how you felt about her what with the interview process and the other women applicants who didn't get the job?

What stood out about this one?

Bob


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Why did you hire her in the first place? Surely you knew then how you felt about her what with the interview process and the other women applicants who didn't get the job?
> 
> What stood out about this one?
> 
> Bob


She was attractive, but not any more than some of the others, the feelings grew with time and my realisation that she was attracted to me.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

jamesa said:


> She was attractive, but not any more than some of the others, the feelings grew with time and my realisation that she was attracted to me.


You know what James? Unless she’s blind your wife already knows what’s going on in your head and between your legs. There’s no need for you to tell her because she knows.

She’s more than likely given you a long leash just to see what you will do. Maybe she wants rid of you and this is how she’s doing it.

As I said become infatuated with your wife … if you want to keep her and your children.

If your employee is on a probationary period then that’s your way ahead.

Bob


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Think on this. Your wife probably gets hit on 100 times more than you ever will. If she can resist her urges then surely you owe her the same.


That is true, without a doubt, she is sometimes oblivious to being hit on. I have been hit on before and had no problem ignoring it, I am not sure what is different this time, maybe it will pass with time.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

jamesa said:


> That is true, without a doubt, she is sometimes oblivious to being hit on. I have been hit on before and had no problem ignoring it, I am not sure what is different this time, maybe it will pass with time.


You’ve two women manipulating the heck out of you but you haven’t a clue about it.

Your employee is probably looking for a raise or a bonus, perhaps come Christmas time. That’s why wise, experienced employers can see right through this stuff with their employees.

You are in great danger of losing everything you’ve worked for. Not just your wife and children but also your business.

“Maybe it will pass with time”. That’s a way of ensuring you will take this further. You really do want this to happen, I can see that.

In 12 months time you really will be “Woe is me”.

Bob


----------



## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

jamesa said:


> Thanks for the advice, unfortunately I can't avoid her at work, It is a small business and I am the owner, but I can delete her of FB and try and keep contact 100% professional.
> 
> She is very 'touchy' though and each touch is like an electric shock to me. Do you think admitting to her how I feel and asking her to keep it professional is wise?


VERY BAD IDEA. You are the owner, she is your employee...admit you're attracted to her and she can turn around and claim sexual harrassment later. I would simply keep things as professional as possible. If she continues to touch you all the time, you just tell her to stop. Follow your proper disciplinary procedures if she doesn't stop and you eventually would have grounds to fire her if it became necessary. 

You've messed up pretty badly here, to be honest. You can't fire her just because you're attracted to her, but continuing to work with her isn't going to help you. 

Take her off your facebook, keep all contact 100% professional. That's really the best you can do. Lots of luck!


----------



## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Get over a crush on a flirty woman at work? 

SImple and "real simple".

"Real simple" first: Just imagine how many diseases and STDs she may have crawling around her vagina. Everytime I see some over the top flirty or promiscuous woman, believe me, it is not long before this gem of a thought pops into my mind and cools the jets pronto! 

If that is not enough though, the rest is "simple" though: Just stop playing fantasyland and realize the reality.

The fantasy: YOu have the flirtatious attention of a cute girl at work, forbidden fruit, making you feel like a man, that everyone thinks you are a stud for causing her to act like that, but strangely enough these same folks would never notice if you actually started having a steamy affair. Oh, and your clients or other employess and your wife will NEVER know (trust me). 

The reality: Assume this woman is probably much like a typical office [email protected] feeding her ego off your attention, loving leading you by the nose, and you being her lapdog. At best you are an innocent distraction or maybe an emotional [email protected] to make up what she is missing from her own failed relationships. At worse, you are means to helping her eventually in her own career if she needs to play the sexual harrasment hand at your terrible expense.

The reality: If you were naive or stupid enough to "reveal your feelings" to this woman, she would have practically infinite control to wreck your career with charges of sexual harrassment or worse. Congratulations, you are no longer a strong, independent boss at your workplace, you are now the b!tch to some office [email protected]

The reality: If you were naive and stupid enough to enter into an actual relationship with this woman, then not only are you her b!tch at work, but you are at her mercy to destroy completely your own marriage and children's lives, the minute you are not quick enoug to be at her beck and call, to give her whatever she wants and meet her emotional and financial and sexual needs. Now this office [email protected] has complete power over every aspect of your life. Bravo.

So see how looking at the reality, and not the fantasyland, hopefully will put your "crush" more into perspective.

As the boss, get used to having "attention" from employee women this way, it is common.

YOu have to deal with it in the reality mindset, and avoid the fantasy completely!

I wish you well.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

BigBadWolf said:


> Get over a crush on a flirty woman at work?
> 
> "Real simple" first: Just imagine how many diseases and STDs she may have crawling around her vagina. Everytime I see some over the top flirty or promiscuous woman, believe me, it is not long before this gem of a thought pops into my mind and cools the jets pronto!


I like that one a lot! Crude, but I am sure it is effective. 



BigBadWolf said:


> The fantasy: YOu have the flirtatious attention of a cute girl at work, forbidden fruit, making you feel like a man, that everyone thinks you are a stud for causing her to act like that, but strangely enough these same folks would never notice if you actually started having a steamy affair. Oh, and your clients or other employess and your wife will NEVER know (trust me). ^


You are right, it is an ego thing, and I am pretty sure she does this a lot. No other employees would ever know, due to the nature of the business and there is no chance that she is looking for promotion/raise/status again because of the nature of the business, probably she just gets her kicks getting men excited. Sexual harrasement would go nowhere too, as the work is informal and undeclared. 



BigBadWolf said:


> At best you are an innocent distraction or maybe an emotional [email protected] to make up what she is missing from her own failed relationships.


I think this is on the money. 

I am thinking of those pustules already.

Thanks,

Jamesa


----------



## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

BigBadWolf said:


> Get over a crush on a flirty woman at work?
> 
> SImple and "real simple".
> 
> ...


I really liked your post. My now ex H was the CEO of a company when he started an affair with an employee there. Neither one works there anymore(not because of the affair but because of layoffs) but this could be also happening to him. His reputation if nothing else will be at stake because this woman has nothing to lose if she exposes the affair the first time they have a major fight. 

So to the original poster, wake up and forget this woman. You have more to lose than you can imagine right now.


----------



## dubs (Oct 24, 2010)

jamesa said:


> She was attractive, but not any more than some of the others, the feelings grew with time and my realisation that she was attracted to me.


She's attracted to your bank account. Don't get fooled.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Just keep "tuning her out" and give the idea that you're not interested. If, later, she asks why, just say that you think you all should keep things more professional, and that you don't want people talking and start rumors, etc.
If she doesn't ask, she's "moved on" from you, you're safe!


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Whether you feel something for this employee or not, allowing her to be "touchy" with you or any other employee is bad practice. I'm sure you are familiar with sexual harassment laws. She doesn't dictate standards of professional conduct for your organization. You do. You don't even have to be nasty about it. As a risk avoidance measure and just to comply with existing laws, you should have and follow a strict sexual harassment policy at work.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Am I missing something here? You hired her because you thought she was attractive and now have urges to be with her yet this thread more or less is about how she is the vixen in all of this? She becomes the diseased ridden woman and you are the saint? Didn't you essentially hire her because you were attracted to her? How does this make her the bad guy? Maybe I read this wrong.


----------



## NeedSpace (Sep 17, 2010)

Ummm ok as a wife here i would have to say what the hell is going on at home that your considering banging another woman?? Your asking us how to stop wanting this lady? How about you ask yourself why you wouldn't rather be having these steamy hot feelings for your (more than likely) lonely and attention starved wife. I'd be starting at home if i was you brother!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

NeedSpace said:


> Ummm ok as a wife here i would have to say what the hell is going on at home that your considering banging another woman?? Your asking us how to stop wanting this lady? How about you ask yourself why you wouldn't rather be having these steamy hot feelings for your (more than likely) lonely and attention starved wife. I'd be starting at home if i was you brother!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, straight moralising is always constructive.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Am I missing something here? You hired her because you thought she was attractive and now have urges to be with her yet this thread more or less is about how she is the vixen in all of this? She becomes the diseased ridden woman and you are the saint? Didn't you essentially hire her because you were attracted to her? How does this make her the bad guy? Maybe I read this wrong.


No, I didn't hire her for her looks and nor is she a bad guy in any way. She is not after my money because I have none, and she knows that, she is not after a promotion or a raise because neither are possible in this situation. 

The reality is that she is lonely and a bit vulnerable. Her husband is away most of the time and she has two young kids and noone to help her. I'm pretty sure that she flirts because she is emotionally needy. It is up to me to be mature and responsible and that is what I am going to do. Be supportive, but professional. 

I am married and I am going to walk away from this.


----------



## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

"I'm pretty sure that she flirts because she is emotionally needy." From what you describe, yes, that's it. The less attention women get at home, the more they search for other men who can take care of them and provide the missing stuff. 

Additionally, lonely women will try to flirt with and attract married men. 1. a married man is supposed to be committed, so he has essentially proved that he can take care of a family (hence he's capable of taking care of her and her kids as well). Not a general rule but some women do think this way. 

2. a married man is a "forbidden fruit" so if you get his attention despite his love for his wife and kids that gives you A LOT OF POWER and makes you feel extremely special. Get it? If you choose her, she'll feel like you chose her over your wife, family and life. That's how important she'll become. Women with low self esteem will get a huge boost out of this. 

You're missing something at home, big time. Find out what it is because that's the real problem in my opinion.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Nekko said:


> "I'm pretty sure that she flirts because she is emotionally needy." From what you describe, yes, that's it. The less attention women get at home, the more they search for other men who can take care of them and provide the missing stuff.
> 
> Additionally, lonely women will try to flirt with and attract married men. 1. a married man is supposed to be committed, so he has essentially proved that he can take care of a family (hence he's capable of taking care of her and her kids as well). Not a general rule but some women do think this way.
> 
> ...


You are right in all that you say, except maybe the last one. I think that we are biologically programmed to spread our genes and need self-discipline to resist that basic urge. I am not sure that there has to be something lacking for us to have the urge to stray, perhaps it is just that when you don't value what you have you are more willing to take risks.

Thanks (to most) for the helpful and wise suggestions. I saw her yesterday and managed to keep things strictly professional. I focussed on her flaws and negative characteristics and this really helps. 

Often if we strip away the novelty element we find that they compare badly with our current SO. I feel like I am over my little crush, but will remain vigilant.


----------



## Greentea (Aug 28, 2010)

Sorry, I can not agree with you guys 100%, and I am not saying this to upset anyone here. 
Just because she is attractive, just because he has a crush on her, then, it's all her fault?she sounds like a demon under your analysis here, so should she take the consequence for being attractive: to be fired?


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Greentea said:


> Sorry, I can not agree with you guys 100%, and I am not saying this to upset anyone here.
> Just because she is attractive, just because he has a crush on her, then, it's all her fault?she sounds like a demon under you anlyis here, so should she take the consequence for being attractive: to be fired?


Sorry, you have misunderstood. No-one is saying this it is her fault at all and no-one is getting fired. We were talking about ways to try and get over a crush and one way is to focus on the bad things, the annoying habits and physical flaws that we all have. That's all. 

No blame on her, no firing.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jamesa said:


> Thanks for the advice, unfortunately I can't avoid her at work, It is a small business and I am the owner, but I can delete her of FB and try and keep contact 100% professional.
> 
> She is very 'touchy' though and each touch is like an electric shock to me. Do you think admitting to her how I feel and asking her to keep it professional is wise?


Yes.

However, you also need to be paying attention to your wife. Are you?

Get the book His Needs Her Needs and read it together with your wife. And you need to be spending 10-15 hours a week with your wife on non-work type activities. Have fun together again. See her for the whole person she is, not just a wife or mother. DATE HER.


----------



## Greentea (Aug 28, 2010)

jamesa said:


> Sorry, you have misunderstood. No-one is saying this it is her fault at all and no-one is getting fired. We were talking about ways to try and get over a crush and one way is to focus on the bad things, the annoying habits and physical flaws that we all have. That's all.
> 
> No blame on her, no firing.


Oh good. you are a good man, at least you don't just take whatever in front of your eyes. if you screw arround with your colleagues, especially when you are the boss, you will pay big price for it. Keep a cool head!


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't buy the hard wired stuff and I think you should get that notion out of your head, makes it is too easy to use that excuse to cheat.

BTW, how do you know that your wife is oblivious to being hit on? She may be when you are around but do you keep an eye on her all day? The irony is that you enumerate the reason this woman looks for reassurance of her attractiveness because of an inattentive husband and you are inattentive to your wife. 

You developed sympathy for her situation but have no sympathy for your woman at home. Why do you not see the parallels with your wife? This situation could be the mirror of something that your wife may experienced too. Did you never think of this? If you are unhappy she is too. How would you feel if she needed her ego stroked because her husband was ignoring her because he is too wrapped up in a crush. She may find it just as hard as you to resist some hot guy who is paying her some attention. 

The biggest mistake you can make is to take your eyes from your wife and take for granted that she will not cheat on you. While you are wasting energy having your ego stroked by your crush and ignoring your wife, some of those hits might stick. Who knows, your wife might meet a man just like you met this woman and feel all electric over him. Men never consider that their wives will cheat. I suppose it male ego thing that blinds them to the possibility. Did you know that women are cheating almost as much as men these days and it's increasing, so how do you explain the hard wiring there. 

The days are gone where men could indulge in the fantasy of the noble fight against his hard wiring as a favor to his wife. If you are chasing chicks and ignoring your wife she may be stepping out on you. Who do you think all those men are cheating with?? 

Smart men know the score these days, they don't get caught in silly office crushes that take their energy and attention form their wives. They give their attention to their wives, especially if they love her and she is attractive enough to catch the eye of other men and if they want to stay married. 

Go home and give your attention to your wife and if you believe she is not among the 40% of women who are cheating, appreciate that she respects and loves you enough to resist temptation. Also pray she does not meet a man like you who pursues her because he gets all electric and thinks he is hard wired to cheat.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> you are inattentive to your wife.


How do figure that I am inattentive to my wife?

I really don't understand all this hostility. I am a good husband trying to avoid doing something that will hurt my family. I didn't just do it like so many men. I came here for help and advice and people like you spit venom. Why?


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jamesa said:


> It must be great to be so sure of your judgement, even about situations about which you know nothing. Makes me really want to read the rest of your post.


It not what you want to read but maybe you should anyway. Are you unhappy with the responses to your post? What were you expecting, expressions of sympathy for your struggle with your circuitry. Gentle surgessions to tear yourself away from this electrifying woman and make the monumental sacrifice to deny the pleasures you are entitled to as a man? 

Sorry, I did not have a window into your fantasies of your irresistable chick magnatism. Your responses gives you away. You want acknowledgement of you drawing power. I get it now, you are bragging and you want a slap on the back, right. Too bad, can't give a slap but I can give you a down to earth warning about the precarious nature of your predicament. You are free to not read it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> It not what you want to read but maybe you should anyway. Are you unhappy with the responses to your post? What were you expecting, expressions of sympathy for your struggle with your circuitry. Gentle surgessions to tear yourself away from this electrifying woman and make the monumental sacrifice to deny the pleasures you are entitled to as a man?
> 
> Sorry, I did not have a window into your fantasies of your irresistable chick magnatism. Your responses gives you away. You want acknowledgement of you drawing power. I get it now, you are bragging and you want a slap on the back, right. Too bad, can't give a slap but I can give you a down to earth warning about the precarious nature of your predicament. You are free to not read it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are hostile and judgemental. I am not bragging, quote my boasts if you can find any. Your anger over nothing says a lot more about you than it does about me. 

As I have said before I came here for advice. Everyone faces temptation occasionally and you can either give in to it or try and do the right thing. Why would you be angry with me for trying to do that?


----------



## Fiveleavesleft (Oct 28, 2010)

Hi James,
I know we disagree on the other thread about drugs  but I'm going to take your side a bit here.

I think we are hard-wired - men and women - not necessarily to cheat, but to be attracted to the opposite sex ( except the minority who also like or prefer the same sex of course). 

Its what one does about the attraction that is a conscious choice and not hardwired, and that includes whether or not one decides to cheat, either sexually, emotionally, or spending a lot of time with someone. 

That attraction has nothing to do with our spouses. There is a belief out there - and I think its a myth - that affairs only happen when there is something wrong in a marriage. I don't believe that's true. An affair can happen in a perfectly happy marriage where all needs are being met by the spouse.

Even in that situation, someone else can also start meeting your emotional needs - and if they meet them enough it can break through to the romantic feelings level, aka falling in love, infatuation, crush or whatever name you want to call it. 

People, waywards in particular, look for confirmation bias and try to blame their own spouse for shortcomings which caused the affair, but often the wayward was perfectly happy before this happened. Also, a lot of the therapy and counselling community will try to dig out "reasons" for faults in the marriage with "caused" the affair. This to me is all part of a blame the victim mentality that has been around in therapy and personal growth circles ever since Freud.

Anyway once that romantic trigger happens the _only_ guaranteed risk free solution is to have no contact with that person - hence all the advice you are getting here to do that. I know that isn't what you want - ultimately though you may need to choose between that and the health of your marriage. 

The reason is that if you have reached that point in your feelings with her all contact with her will feed that romantic level feeling and it won't go away, in fact if could continue to grow even without your willing it, and things may well become increasingly difficult not to act on. 


It seems unconscionable to you at the moment. I get that. But the stakes are very high and I think you know that too.

But in my opinion that is the only thing that really works. You can try cooling things off as much as possible and keeping her around in a strictly professional capacity, but you will still have the feelings to struggle with. 

I will also say that I think one of the absolute worst things you can do is tell her how you feel as part of setting a new professional-only boundary. There is nothing more likely in a situation like this to trigger a real affair than telling someone you have feelings for them. The feelings for each other usually sky rocket at that point because of the disclosure itself, if she feels at all the same way.
So, if you really aren't willing to look at the options for eliminating her from your life completely, simply do whatever you can to cool things down. If she thinks you have become more "distant", don't tell her why, just be distant. 
Don't show that you care about her feelings on a personal level. Unwind any connection you have just by doing it and not by talking about it. Talking to her about it will make it worse.

Good luck!


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jamesa said:


> How do figure that I am inattentive to my wife?
> 
> I really don't understand all this hostility. I am a good husband trying to avoid doing something that will hurt my family. I didn't just do it like so many men. I came here for help and advice and people like you spit venom. Why?


When you are in a fog about another women you cannot possibly be as attentive to you wife as you should. You day dreaming about the OW. It's one of the first signs that a man will stray. If you are honest, you would recognize that your wife senses something, your head is in the clouds. 

Who cares about what other men are doing, do you want a metal for bravery under fire? There are men who beat their wives do you diserve a metal for that too. Nice try - accusation of unfairness to deflect what you dont want to hear - but ineffective my post was not venomous it was searing. Your statement about other men is telling you imply that you are entitled to stray or that it is in the nature of men to stray. I suppose you think you are doing your wife a big favor by your fidelity. 

Thats a bad attitude to habor, do you find it difficult to be greatful for your wife since you think that you have sacrificed so much to be with her? If you were not married you could throw caution to the wind. You would be happy now not asking for help, if the wifey were not in the way. Must be difficult to appreciate what she does for you when you have given up so much to stay with her. Would it make you feel better if she fell at you feet everyday day and thanked you for one more day of putting aside your rights as a wired male to grace her lowly person with your favors?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Fiveleavesleft said:


> I think we are hard-wired - men and women - not necessarily to cheat, but to be attracted to the opposite sex ( except the minority who also like or prefer the same sex of course).
> 
> Its what one does about the attraction that is a conscious choice and not hardwired, and that includes whether or not one decides to cheat, either sexually, emotionally, or spending a lot of time with someone.


Thanks for the back up. Catherine seems to think that I am using the old "my sexuality is too powerful to control" argument, I am not. My point is that my wife is not to blame in any way. I love her, I am attracted to her, we have a good sex life and I am happy in the marriage, but all this didn't stop me from being very tempted. 

To say that we have affairs only when we are unhappy in our marriages is a cop out and shifts the blame to the spouse.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> When you are in a fog about another women you cannot possibly be as attentive to you wife as you should. You day dreaming about the OW. It's one of the first signs that a man will stray. If you are honest, you would recognize that your wife senses something, your head is in the clouds.
> 
> Who cares about what other men are doing, do you want a metal for bravery under fire? There are men who beat their wives do you diserve a metal for that too. Nice try - accusation of unfairness to deflect what you dont want to hear - but ineffective my post was not venomous it was searing. Your statement about other men is telling you imply that you are entitled to stray or that it is in the nature of men to stray. I suppose you think you are doing your wife a big favor by your fidelity.
> 
> ...


You should see someone about your hostile feelings - and your spelling.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> When you are in a fog about another women you cannot possibly be as attentive to you wife as you should. You day dreaming about the OW. It's one of the first signs that a man will stray. If you are honest, you would recognize that your wife senses something, your head is in the clouds.
> 
> Who cares about what other men are doing, do you want a metal for bravery under fire? There are men who beat their wives do you diserve a metal for that too. Nice try - accusation of unfairness to deflect what you dont want to hear - but ineffective my post was not venomous it was searing. Your statement about other men is telling you imply that you are entitled to stray or that it is in the nature of men to stray. I suppose you think you are doing your wife a big favor by your fidelity.
> 
> ...


These are all your words. Nowhere in any of my posts did I say anything of these things. Are you confusing me for somebody else?


----------



## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

Look, like fiveleaves said, both men and women are attracted to other men and women since they figure out that the opposite sex is attractive, until the day they die. Marriage doesn't end this. Anyone who denies this basic rule of life is possibly doing so because he/she finds the truth too hurtful. But attraction to other people is completely harmless and not to be blamed in any way as long as the person experiencing it thinks with his/her responsible, superior (non primitive) mind and realizes that a marriage is a choice and top priority and shouldn't be put in danger in any way. 

Affairs don't only happen when people are unhappy in their marriage. But let me point out here that a comfortable boredom is reason enough for your mind to secretly desire some of that excitement you're not getting. 

If i'm allowed to make a comparison with food...if you have mac and cheese at home every day, you'll be lusting for a pizza. It's not that the mac and cheese isn't great. It might actually be, normally and compared objectively, much better and tastier than the pizza for you. It's also pretty normal for the drooling after pizza to occur in this scenario. But why not make some pizza home?

It's great that you came here for advice and you have my respect for showing self-control rather than plunging into a potential affair that could've hurt your wife, put your marriage at risk. Out of my own personal experience when i was getting close to developing crushes on other guys, it was because everything was boring at home. 

I had plenty of desires, for excitement, for romance, for adventure, something new and someone to actually make me feel wanted (not wanted as in loved in a kind, nurturing way, wanted as in not be able to control one's behavior and rip clothes off me). I obviously didn't do anything about it. How smart would i really be if i put my longtime great marriage, my top priority, at danger for a person that is not superior to most other people out there? What would i really have to gain? Crushes are more often than not just fantasies, we project all our needs on a person and think he/she can fullfill them. That's exactly because we don't know anything about those people. The less we know the more qualities we can PROJECT upon them. 

So what did i do? Figure out how to have those needs met home. But not just wait for my husband to do it. I figured, i want more excitement, i'm gunna run around the house dancing on my favorite song, laugh, listen to stand up, learn to cook something...my husband noticed and he started coming up with new behavior and fun stuff of his own. We started discovering a new side to eachother. More hugs...a passionate kiss on the street as if we were having an affair together (!) That "in love feeling" came back, more lustiness came back. Didn't end as to plan. He had deeper resentment, i got lazy and low-self esteem again. I'll be working on it some more, because now i know it works and there's always something we can improve at. But while i was experiencing that with my husband...the hottest guy on the planet could come along and i wouldn't care. Why? I had no needs that were unmet, nothing to project on someone else. I was truly happy with everything i had and put all my effort in being with my husband. 

I'm not saying you're not happy or not being respectful and loving to your wife. The fact that you came on here for advice already proves that. What i'm suggesting is that you stop and take an honest look at yourself, your wife, your relationship and see if you're bored with everything. If there's anything you're missing that you, as a responsible adult may have instantly tagged as "childish" and "unrealistic" and are now trying to supress. You might discover something. Then you'll have to learn to put a bit more fun into your relationship, more laughing, more excitement, more aliveness. And might see that even if attraction for other women is there, you probably won't feel like you're going to develop a crush. It'll just stick to "ah, she's hot" now let me go and fool around with my own gal.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Nekko said:


> Look, like fiveleaves said, both men and women are attracted to other men and women since they figure out that the opposite sex is attractive, until the day they die. Marriage doesn't end this. Anyone who denies this basic rule of life is possibly doing so because he/she finds the truth too hurtful. But attraction to other people is completely harmless and not to be blamed in any way as long as the person experiencing it thinks with his/her responsible, superior (non primitive) mind and realizes that a marriage is a choice and top priority and shouldn't be put in danger in any way.
> 
> Affairs don't only happen when people are unhappy in their marriage. But let me point out here that a comfortable boredom is reason enough for your mind to secretly desire some of that excitement you're not getting.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that mature and thoughtful response. I will certainly think about it and talk to my wife. Of course you can get into a rut after being married for a long time, I suppose shaking things up with some fun can't hurt.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Fiveleavesleft said:


> People, waywards in particular, look for confirmation bias and try to blame their own spouse for shortcomings which caused the affair, but often the wayward was perfectly happy before this happened. Also, a lot of the therapy and counselling community will try to dig out "reasons" for faults in the marriage with "caused" the affair. This to me is all part of a blame the victim mentality that has been around in therapy and personal growth circles ever since Freud.


Fiveleavesleft, I thought I was alone in this thought, this belief. It is time to stop blaming the victim. Once that happens then you can truly look at the abuser with crystal clear eyes and come to know who they are and what they either do or don’t stand for. What their core values and beliefs are. Then you can make your decision as to whether you stay with them or not.

It is also time for the victim to stop blaming themselves when they are being abused. The time for introspection and self improvement comes when the abuser has stopped their abuse and has committed 100% to making the marriage a happy and healthy one.

James, I’m not referring to you in any part of this at all.

Bob


----------



## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

First of all I would like to say that I think you are a good man or you wouldn't be here asking for advice.....
You have let yourself think about another woman and that is a problem and it is not right........
How would you feel if it was your wife in this position.....what would you advise her to do?
Let's say you crossed the line and your wife finds out about it, can you deal with all that turmoil you will bring to your wife and children, will it be worth it then, think of her face and all the pain you will see there.......read this site for a while and just start to understand the pain the people feel and it stems from someone that thinks just like you do......except they didn't stop themselves they just threw out their boundaries and caused a lot of people pain because of their selfishnes......
I would avoid her, don't get involved in the flirting she does and remember you love your family and nothing is worth causing them any kind of pain and sorrow........Do you want to be single If you do, leave your wife first and then move on if you want but not while you are married that is just cruel and uncaring.......
Don't you love your wife, didn't you make a promise to her?
Read this site...........


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It is recommended that you spend at least 15 hours a week with your spouse doing non-work-related activity. Anything from taking a walk to doing a jigsaw puzzle to taking a day trip. If you don't put in the 15 hours, you start to become roommates to each other. The 15 hours is for you to spend 'date' time together, even if it's just drinking a cup of coffee - you are staying connected. I'm pretty sure if you made an effort at this, you'd start to remember why you love your wife so much and forget about the OW.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

turnera said:


> It is recommended that you spend at least 15 hours a week with your spouse doing non-work-related activity. Anything from taking a walk to doing a jigsaw puzzle to taking a day trip. If you don't put in the 15 hours, you start to become roommates to each other. The 15 hours is for you to spend 'date' time together, even if it's just drinking a cup of coffee - you are staying connected. I'm pretty sure if you made an effort at this, you'd start to remember why you love your wife so much and forget about the OW.


We don't spend nearly that amount of time together. She is studying/working and I am working/caring for the kids for about 15 hours a day.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, then, that's why your eye and mind is wandering.

What are you going to do about it?


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jamesa said:


> We don't spend nearly that amount of time together. She is studying/working and I am working/caring for the kids for about 15 hours a day.


Oooohh this is not about a man considering an affair instead it is a husband who is not getting enough attention from his wife. Well your feelings are natural and normal. I am not implying that your wife is neglecting you on purpose and It does not sound as if you beleive that but that's how you are feeling. Sounds like you both agreed to work hard for the advancement of your family but its hard to anticipate how you will feel when you spend less time woth your partner. Do you think this crush was due to missing your wife? If you two spent more time together do you think you would have given the OW a second look? 

I think the solution to your problem is getting more attention from your wife. She does not know that the busy schedules caused a drop in the connection between the two of you to a threshold you cannot tolerate. It does not matter that you thought you would be able to manage. Now you know you cannot make due with the amount of contact and attention you are getting now. 

Wow, 15 hrs with the kids is very difficult. How are you handeling that. I'll bet you are trying hard to live up to your agreement but it may be too much. How soon do you think you can talk to your wife about how you feel? I dont think you need to feel bad about needing your wife, i would be flattered if i were in your wife's shoes. The depth of you feelings for this woman is proportional to your love and need for your wife. So talk to her and let her know. 

Forget everything i have said before and please forgive my terrible spelling i an dyslexic and sending on my iphone. You took a long time to get to the heart of the matter. Your original post seemed like a happily married man throwing his wife and family under a bus on a whim. Then you said you were happy with your marriage. And now you express what this is all about. Do you think you feel less connected with your wife because of the hectic pace of your lives?. Think about it, if it rings true then you have a cause and now you can can fix it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well said, Catherine.


----------



## Fiveleavesleft (Oct 28, 2010)

James I'd like to point out here that there is not _necessarily_ a connection between what is happening at home and your situation with this other woman. If indeed you are not getting all your needs met by your wife, then that does make you more vulnerable to someone else meeting them. 
However, things happening in your marriage are never the _cause_. The cause is someone else meeting your needs and you finding that enjoyable.
There is no proven causal relationship between your lack of enough quality time with your wife and your getting to feel romantic towards OW. It is not possible either, to prove or disprove the relationship. It is just a theory. 

What happens with the idea that affairs/crushes etc must be caused by something wrong in the marriage, is that the person pushing that idea eventually finds something in the marriage that is less than optimal ( most of us have something) , and then pounces on that as the "real issue" causing all the problems. Its confirmation bias of their own belief system.

No, the lack of quality time with your wife MAY be a contributing factor, but it is not the cause, and the situation MAY have happened anyway even if that was all fine and dandy, simply through the amount of time you spend at work with OW and the opportunity she has for meeting your needs ( physical attractiveness, admiration maybe etc). You can't know because you cant replay history with a different choice.

At this point, you are where you are. The OW is still there and your feelings havent gone away with this discussion.
I would recommend that you treat the time with your wife issue and the OW issue as two separate things and any positive effects of one on the other are then a bonus.

You will find that the 15 hours a week of quality time idea works very well, and I would recommend that in itself to anyone who isnt doing it. His needs, her needs is an excellent book, I agree with Turnera.

That may have some helpful effects on the OW situation. Perhaps OW will notice that you are less on facebook or it will help her feel "distance". Also, you may find it a helpful and healthy "distraction" from the crush. 
Also doing that will reduce the risk of you getting into that situation with someone else in future. 
But you still need to pull back from OW and limit/control her ability to meet your needs.


----------



## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Let me say that it's nice to see a guy admit that he's got a wandering eye(what man hasn't, from time to time) and wants some advice on how to deal with it. Too many posters like yourself don't look for advice until after an affair, wife divorced him, kids hate him, lost house, car, shirt, OW sued him for sexual harassment, now his face is on a sex offender website, etc...
The fact is, we all get tempted, we all have to deal with it, but we don't always stop and seriously THINK first. You have stopped yourself, good for you.
I have to admit, the slugfest (or more aptly, the hyenas taking down the prey) was getting hilarious-seems every word you said invited more torpedoes into your hull-almost like they are trying to use your post to prove that "all men are lying, cheating, conniving pigs". For a moment, I toyed with the idea that you and certain other posters knew each other!
But, keep up with what you're doing (looking before you leap), and stay strong, you can beat this temptation. 
And, on a humorous note: How about hiring a a handsome stud? Those other women at work will totally forget you overnight!


----------



## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

jamesa said:


> Thanks for the advice, unfortunately I can't avoid her at work, It is a small business and I am the owner, but I can delete her of FB and try and keep contact 100% professional.
> 
> She is very 'touchy' though and each touch is like an electric shock to me. Do you think admitting to her how I feel and asking her to keep it professional is wise?


NO! But shore up your human resources policies. You can mention the inappropriateness of touchiness in the workplace without admitting any feelings!

If you think you really are at risk of having an affair with someone who is an employee at your company, that is a big problem. Time to address professional boundaries in your mind.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Fiveleavesleft said:


> However, things happening in your marriage are never the _cause_. The cause is someone else meeting your needs and you finding that enjoyable.
> There is no proven causal relationship between your lack of enough quality time with your wife and your getting to feel romantic towards OW. It is not possible either, to prove or disprove the relationship. It is just a theory.


I don't want to blame anything or anyone else. I am tempted because I like the idea of her finding me attractive. I have let each step happen, even though I know that it is a bad idea, just to prove to myself that she really does find me attractive. 

It is very easy to see how you could end up in a full blown affair while telling yourself that you will never let it happen all the way along.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

F-102 said:


> I have to admit, the slugfest (or more aptly, the hyenas taking down the prey) was getting hilarious-seems every word you said invited more torpedoes into your hull-almost like they are trying to use your post to prove that "all men are lying, cheating, conniving pigs". For a moment, I toyed with the idea that you and certain other posters knew each other!
> But, keep up with what you're doing (looking before you leap), and stay strong, you can beat this temptation.
> And, on a humorous note: How about hiring a a handsome stud? Those other women at work will totally forget you overnight!


I honestly don't know what rubbed people up the wrong way. 

People seemed to feed off each other making stuff up. Suddenly I hated her, I was firing her, I think men have the right to treat women like *****s... 

None of those things is true and I never said anything like that.

Bizarre.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> NO! But shore up your human resources policies. You can mention the inappropriateness of touchiness in the workplace without admitting any feelings!
> 
> If you think you really are at risk of having an affair with someone who is an employee at your company, that is a big problem. Time to address professional boundaries in your mind.


We live in a Mediterranean country where people are more tactile so it is tricky. I have seen many people misinterpret physical affection. The 'business' is also very small and informal, but of course I should apply a reasonable standard.


----------



## Fiveleavesleft (Oct 28, 2010)

jamesa said:


> I don't want to blame anything or anyone else. I am tempted because I like the idea of her finding me attractive. I have let each step happen, even though I know that it is a bad idea, just to prove to myself that she really does find me attractive.
> 
> It is very easy to see how you could end up in a full blown affair while telling yourself that you will never let it happen all the way along.


Blame wasn't what I meant but I can see how my comment came across that way.. There doesn't need to be intent on her part. You like the idea of her finding you attractive, because, you like her. It feels good. That feel good is what I mean by "her meeting emotional needs". Quite right it isn't her "fault" that you feel that way, and although sometimes people can play to and encourage those feelings, I am not assuming that she does, or apportioning blame based on what I've read here.

My point was largely that this sort of thing can happen to any of us at any time, so the precautions and measures one takes need to consider that.


----------



## Fiveleavesleft (Oct 28, 2010)

jamesa said:


> We live in a Mediterranean country where people are more tactile so it is tricky. I have seen many people misinterpret physical affection. The 'business' is also very small and informal, but of course I should apply a reasonable standard.


So move to the UK


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Fiveleavesleft said:


> Blame wasn't what I meant but I can see how my comment came across that way.. There doesn't need to be intent on her part. You like the idea of her finding you attractive, because, you like her. It feels good. That feel good is what I mean by "her meeting emotional needs". Quite right it isn't her "fault" that you feel that way, and although sometimes people can play to and encourage those feelings, I am not assuming that she does, or apportioning blame based on what I've read here.
> 
> My point was largely that this sort of thing can happen to any of us at any time, so the precautions and measures one takes need to consider that.


I understand and agree. 

I just think it is best not to allow yourself to blame others, your marriage etc, even if they may be factors. The battle is essentially with ourselves right? We can only control our own actions, not those of the people around us.


----------



## Fiveleavesleft (Oct 28, 2010)

jamesa said:


> I understand and agree.
> 
> I just think it is best not to allow yourself to blame others, your marriage etc, even if they may be factors. The battle is essentially with ourselves right? We can only control our own actions, not those of the people around us.


Totally. In fact I find the tendency to attribute cause to outside factors as a bit insulting when applied to me. Its feels like they are starting with the assumption that I have absolutely no self control! You've seen that on this thread too!


----------



## Fiveleavesleft (Oct 28, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Fiveleavesleft, I thought I was alone in this thought, this belief. It is time to stop blaming the victim. Once that happens then you can truly look at the abuser with crystal clear eyes and come to know who they are and what they either do or don’t stand for. What their core values and beliefs are. Then you can make your decision as to whether you stay with them or not.
> 
> Bob


Good, that means there are now three of us, you, me and Mrs Leavesleft.

Yes this is getting away from James' situation and is worthy of a longer discussion somewhere else. The idea generally that everything "bad" that happens in your life is your own "stuff". Your own repressed traumas comng back to you. There is a grain of truth in it sometimes, but it gets applied far too broadly and rigidly. And not just in intimate relationships. One memorable example of mine is being told by my rebirthing therapist that being caught on speed camera on the way to the session was entirely my fault, caused by my "death urge". 
If I embraced life more, that wouldn't have happened apparently.

To tie back to what I was just saying with James, we are solely responsible for our own actions, but we are not responsible for what others do, and the effects they have on us. So we take action to prevent them from doing it if we can, rather than try to change our emotional state to fit the situation.

Anyway at the risk of heading way off topic I'll leave it there for now..


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Well it looks like James is onboard as well to me. It is about personal boundaries, that’s how I see it.

Personal Boundaries: Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms
N.U.T.s are your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms. N.U.T.s are the things you’re committed to, the things that matter more than anything else: your kids, your work, yourself, your purpose, your spiritual practice, your hobbies, your integrity, your morals and your psychological well-being.

In James’ case a N.U.T. would be “I will never, under any circumstances, be unfaithful to my wife”. 

It really is that simple. That’s his word, pledge, vow. It’s an oath to ourselves. It’s what we live by and we don’t need to tell anybody about it, we just be it. We live by our word/oath to ourselves. And when we do that we live with credibility and integrity.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html

Bob


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I love that book.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Well it looks like James is onboard as well to me. It is about personal boundaries, that’s how I see it.
> 
> Personal Boundaries: Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms
> N.U.T.s are your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms. N.U.T.s are the things you’re committed to, the things that matter more than anything else: your kids, your work, yourself, your purpose, your spiritual practice, your hobbies, your integrity, your morals and your psychological well-being.
> ...


Excellent, thanks. That is exactly the sort of practical advice I am after.


----------



## blaaaah (Oct 29, 2010)

Alright James, 
It's now been a full work week since you've realized you needed help getting through this. How are you doing? Are you finding it easier or harder so far? Have you taken any steps towards backing out of the road you found yourself on?

I can see that you've gotten a lot of honest advice and though some of it was quite adamant  , you must certainly understand that they were forceful because they can see your life spread out in front of you. Many people here have lived the mistake they are adamant you avoid. I just think everyone would think it would be so awesome if you actually listened to the expert advice you were given and avoided the pain that you will feel, your wife will feel, your kids will feel, the OW will feel, and the OW's husband will feel, your parents, etc. Wouldn't it be so great to hear that outcome for once? 

If someone who has been where you don't want to be says "Delete her from FB!" And then you did. Somebody says "Cut off all unnecessary non-work related communication!" And you did. Somebody says "Refocus on your wife, as hard as it can be when the infatuation fog sets in!" And you actively tried. Plan something. Do something.

Does everyone agree that the bottom line is that if you don't _take action specifically to prevent furthering the relationship_, then it's the same as taking a step _towards_ an affair. Continuing to see her everyday and chatting with her and getting to know her even if you intend on being true to your wife seems to be nearly guaranteed to end in an affair.

That's my 2 cents. No pressure but I have put all my hopes for the male species on you. :smthumbup: Good luck!


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

blaaaah said:


> Alright James,
> It's now been a full work week since you've realized you needed help getting through this. How are you doing? Are you finding it easier or harder so far? Have you taken any steps towards backing out of the road you found yourself on?


Yes, I feel like I have got on top of it and my feelings for her are starting to wane. BigBadWolf suggested some funny, sexist, but surprisingly effective techniques. I have taken most of the suggestions and thought them through at least. 

My wife is away for the weekend so it is hard to concentrate on her, but it does give me time to think. I think the simple but effective technique of focussing on the positives of your relationship and the negatives of the other option works well.


----------



## Fiveleavesleft (Oct 28, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Well it looks like James is onboard as well to me. It is about personal boundaries, that’s how I see it.
> 
> Personal Boundaries: Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms
> N.U.T.s are your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms. N.U.T.s are the things you’re committed to, the things that matter more than anything else: your kids, your work, yourself, your purpose, your spiritual practice, your hobbies, your integrity, your morals and your psychological well-being.
> ...


Kind of shocking isn't it that the idea that of having principles and standing by them can be such a revolutionary idea to so many men. 

I can remember my father ( and mother come to think of it) telling me at the age of six to stand up for what I believe in at school and not to bow to pressure. Both external beliefs and standards for oneself. It was almost like it was in my family's DNA. Integrity is the beginning, not the end of things. 
Doesn't mean I've always lived up to that, but when I haven't, I've suffered. And familiy wise we did have the odd black sheep.


So many people today don't exhibit integrity, and what is even more shocking is that so many people don't respect it. For example, we have a very low standard of expectation of our elected servants aka politicians.
Its like cheating ( in the broader sense, not just affairs) is admired. If you can get away with something, good luck to you sort of attitude.

Looking more closely..
I notice that when you list the things that matter more than anything else, you don't include.. your marriage.. as a possible example.

I had a look at the excerpt you posted on the other thread. Although I completely agree with the idea of hard boundaries to one's being, some of the examples in the list don't work for me at all, and some would be counter to my model of a happy marriage.
Also, the advice after the list.
A particular issue is the idea of developing a system that you share with a other men, but not with your wife:



> Sharing your N.U.T.s prematurely is often an indication of your need for approval. You may be tempted to mention your N.U.T.s to your woman to test her reaction, and to see what resistance you may be up against. Also, receiving permission to live your N.U.T.s defeats their purpose.
> 
> Remember, you don’t ask for permission to be the man you want to be, you simply have to be that man.
> 
> Again, N.U.T.s are to be lived, not discussed. So resist the temptation to talk about your N.U.T.s with those who ultimately will be impacted by them.


That doesnt fit with my marriage model at all. I notice the article doesnt use the word marriage at all either, but refers only to " your woman". This alone sets off a yellow alert for me .

I also had a look at the Bettermen.org website, which then confirmed what I was seeing further.


Do you know the book Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders, by Dr Bill Harley? Worth reading, but if not you can also find explanations of the terms on the Marriagebuilders.com website.

I think that the advice given by Bettermen and other mens groups, that you should have a part of your life that you only discuss and share with other men, and not with your spouse, presupposes that your relationship or marriage with a woman is a "renters" agreement. Although "renters" is generally defined as a short term view in a relationship, a lot of people try to live as "renters" when married. Its about sacrificing in expectation of getting something in return, then conflict when the expected returns dont materialise. Renters argue and fight a lot if they are in long term relationships.
Renters care about their individual freedom and independence, 
" I don't need permission" is a renters statement. "I'm going to jolly well do this because it is part of my NUTS and if you don't like it, tough". In fact I'm not even going to tell you about my NUTS I'm just going to do it anyway. Not a recipe for a happy marriage in my book.


As we are all told by society that these qualities of "freedom and independence" are desirable, a lot of people are renters in their relationships, meaning that people do things their partners don't like, because "they are being who they are". if the partner doesnt like it is "their problem" - this is exactly what I meant by "blaming the victim" which started this whole conversation off.

Bettermen to me looks like a kind of feminism for men. Feminism addressed some real inequalities and injustices but has led to a belief amongst some women that their female loyalties are greater than those to the spouse. 
This is doing the same thing for men, a lot of men may have lost their way in terms of masculinity and need some reaffirmation, but it needs to be a way which explicitly supports marriage, respects the marriage and takes second place - no colluding or secrets from the spouse.



We can all use the advice of more experienced and "elder" members of our own sex, the wisdom of age, but in a really healthy marriage, all that comes after - way after - the loyalty of the marriage partners to each other.
Otherwise the battle of the sexes rages on.

I think it was a Rabbi ( I'm not Jewish but like this) who said, "There are two types of married couple. Those who make jokes about marriage and those who don't understand the jokes". 

Those who don't understand the jokes are the 20% or so of people who have cracked it, they have happy marriages that last a lifetime, they remain in love ( not just loving each other but "in love") and mostly they keep quiet about it. 

These are the "buyers". Their first loyalty is to each other, and they pretty much don't do _anything_ that their spouse doesnt like, Because that is what it takes to keep the spouse happy. It goes both ways because your spouse is not doing anything you don't like either.
(Perhaps you know this terminology but I'm giving the brief explanation in case you don't).
The book I mentioned and the marriagebuilders model describes it in terms of - Neither you nor your spouse does anything unless you have joint enthusiastic agreement over it. 

It works in countless cases. I dare say it may not work if you are married and you can't get your spouse to agree to this approach in the first place, in which case being stuck in a renters type agreement, doing something which protects your boundaries in the way described by Bettermen might be a useful strategy. But it isn't the optimal formula for a marriage, in my opinion if you can get your spouse on side with the approach I describe ( I know other people here know of this stuff because I've seen it referred to around the forum).

A Buyer friendly system might look like this.

A man has a set of NUTS which include limits for his own sake and limits for his wife's sake - the things he won't do because she doesnt enthusastically agree.

His wife has a similar set of NUTS - things she wont do for her own sake and things she won't do because he doesnt enthusastically agree.
OK For the woman lets call them BOOBs ( Boundaries Of Overall Behaviour)

They agree them between each other and don't share them with anybody else of either sex. Its nobody else's business. really.
Also they then save a small fortune on life coaching fees and weekend workshops. 

Then they put their NUTS and BOOBs into effect.
Voila.


----------



## Fiveleavesleft (Oct 28, 2010)

> Also they then save a small fortune on life coaching fees and weekend workshops.


Which they can spend on fine dining, trips to exotic places and anything else they enjoy doing together.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I didn’t see it that way at all. Nothing like that interpretation. Being English the presentation in the videos looked very “American”, kind of over selling. But I’ve been to the States often on sales conferences and recognise that’s how things are done there. It is of no significance to me how much money they do or don’t make from their enterprise, of no consequence whatsoever. Only thing is with me if they’re doing something good then I hope they make money out of. I am not at all against capitalism and return on investment.

Don’t we all have a set of values, beliefs and rules? And aren’t some of those truly non negotiable? Isn’t that true of every person on the planet? And is not that that set of values, beliefs and rules that literally “drive” our behaviour and eventually our destiny? In some way we are a slave to them, so it’s best to know what they are. The most fundamental way of changing our behaviour for example is by changing what we value and believe in. Make changes there and our behaviour will change.

I see you are quite negative about it all and have put a negative spin on it, I wonder why? If you don’t like the N.U.T.s. examples then don’t use them, it really is as simple as that.

The idea is to have your own set of N.U.T.s., not somebody else’s. I do really think it good to identify behaviour that we will not tolerate of ourselves and behaviour that we will not tolerate from others. Most especially in critical times of our lives when we feel we’re being abused in a marriage. In generates an inner strength that we communicate by being intolerant of certain behaviour. Surely that’s the way we behaved as a parent, guiding our children through their childhood in part by being intolerant of and not tolerant of bad behaviour. Isn’t that the way “good citizens” come into being?

Maybe it just doesn’t work for you. In my case I was being way to patient and tolerant of my wife’s, as I saw it, abusive behaviour. And that just led to more abuse. In a few critical times in my marriage, I tried to get her to see the light so to speak, to help and coach her with better ways. In essence I was trying to rescue her while she was persecuting me. I always thought she was capable of change, that she’d want to change. It wasn't until I constructed a few boundaries, a few N.U.T.s. that I truly recognised just how obdurate she is. For the first time in decades I saw her for how she truly is in the one aspect in our marriage that gave me the greatest problem with her.

I discovered that in this one thing we had polar opposite, values, beliefs and rules. I could not accept hers and she could not accept mine. It truly was a clash of basic philosophies of life and such there was never going to be a resolution. And I could not live with her any longer because of that. Setting my boundaries got me to that point, a point I’d never got to before. And I am a far happier man for it.

Of course there is no reason why a married couple cannot sit down and identify the boundaries for their marriage and the boundaries for one another in that marriage. I think that would be a very helpful and healthy thing to do.

Bob


----------



## Almostthere (Oct 31, 2010)

Your interest in this woman is a fantasy and only a fantasy. She is not all the wonderful amazing things you believe her to be, she is just someone who has the same issues and flaws as everyone else, including your wife. Think logically about how this will pan out. You start an affair, your partners find out , two families are destroyed, even if your wife forgives you it will take years for her to get over it and I mean years. If she doesnt you will be out on your on or else you could go live with your mistress only to find out that she is not the perfect woman you thought her to be and you have just thrown away everything for a fantasy. Also if your relationship starts with infidelity you only have something like a 10% chance of survival!
Talk to your wife today!!! Tell her you are not happy and start working on how you can get your marriage back on track, together. Keep as far away as from the other woman as possible at this time, do not let yourself be alone with her if that is possible and only ever discuss things and do things you would be comfortable with your wife seeing or hearing, you must remove the temptation. 
You are being selfish and very very foolish, marriage is for as long as you both shall live not as long as you both shall love or lust. You have to work everyday at being in love, you don't turn to someone else when it gets a bit boring!!
If you go down this road you will regret it for the rest of your life! Be a better man than that your Wife and Kids deserve it.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Almostthere said:


> You are being selfish and very very foolish, marriage is for as long as you both shall live not as long as you both shall love or lust. You have to work everyday at being in love, you don't turn to someone else when it gets a bit boring!!
> If you go down this road you will regret it for the rest of your life! Be a better man than that your Wife and Kids deserve it.


Thanks for that. When people are genuinely asking for help it is always a good idea to be judgemental and morally superior.


----------



## Almostthere (Oct 31, 2010)

So sorry if thats how it came across was not how I meant it at all, I know first hand how easy it is for these things to get out of control and would hate for you to do something you would truly regret. The fact that you were able to recognize you are in a troublesome situation shows that you truly dont want to do this.


----------



## Fiveleavesleft (Oct 28, 2010)

Bob,


> I didn’t see it that way at all. Nothing like that interpretation. Being English the presentation in the videos looked very “American”, kind of over selling. But I’ve been to the States often on sales conferences and recognise that’s how things are done there. It is of no significance to me how much money they do or don’t make from their enterprise, of no consequence whatsoever. Only thing is with me if they’re doing something good then I hope they make money out of. I am not at all against capitalism and return on investment.


None of which I disagree with except that I don't think they are doing something good. The point I was making ( facetiously I know) was that if someone wants to improve their marriage there may be alternatives like spending the money on quality time together which will work wonders.

In general, I am against life coaching and individual therapy or counselling for people within marriages. Doing it jointly is fine.
But doing it individually creates a personal space the spouse does not have access to or any say over. It is letting a third party into the marriage. That third party is paid to look after the interests of the individual, not those of the marriage, and can very often drive people further apart.
I'm also against Large Group Awareness Training which is what those workshops appear to be like. That in my opinion is unhealthy both for marrieds and singles, but admittedly I am basing that assessment on limited information on the website - the testimonials all point to it though as does the description. I would like to know enough about it to compare and contrast with the Mankind Project and Sterling Relationship Research, for example.



> Don’t we all have a set of values, beliefs and rules? And aren’t some of those truly non negotiable? Isn’t that true of every person on the planet? And is not that that set of values, beliefs and rules that literally “drive” our behaviour and eventually our destiny? In some way we are a slave to them, so it’s best to know what they are. The most fundamental way of changing our behaviour for example is by changing what we value and believe in. Make changes there and our behaviour will change.


Yes, yes, don't know, no. They don't drive our behaviour because people violate their own rules frequently, agonise over things, and halve self-conflict. We have a cerebral function which allows us to consider things on a case by case basis. The hard-wired things like taking your hand off a hot stove, finding some woman attractive, defending your child, bypass that of course, but are not linked to beliefs and values but primitive reptilian survival and reproductive mechanisms.

So no, I don't agree we are a slave to them.

The other thing you slip into that paragraph is to talk about changing one's beliefs and values. Everything I've seen so far doesn't talk about changing them but about "finding" them. This could be deliberate - they don't want to appear to be imposing a belief system, but I think this could be what's happening, by leading men 99% of the way to a particular set of beliefs, and by allowing them to take the last 1% step themselves telling them that they have "found" their inner core beliefs that were there all along. 



> I see you are quite negative about it all and have put a negative spin on it, I wonder why? If you don’t like the N.U.T.s. examples then don’t use them, it really is as simple as that.


You could also say that I am seeing behaviour that violates my beliefs and values and that I am being intolerant of it.

I'm telling it how I see it according to my own beliefs, if that means I'm "putting a spin" on it, then ok its simply my view. I don't like it, not because of the idea of writing a list of principles one stands by, that is a fine idea for those who may lack the ability or will to stand by their beliefs anyway. It isn't that, its what is packaged around it. You can say that I can ignore the list of examples, however, these are the examples that the author chose to use, "because they might inspire you". The reader is being encouraged to choose these.

Everything else, like sharing your NUTS with "the men", not with your wife, is promoting a particular belief system, and one that I find damaging to a marriage as explained in my last post. 



> The idea is to have your own set of N.U.T.s., not somebody else’s. I do really think it good to identify behaviour that we will not tolerate of ourselves and behaviour that we will not tolerate from others. Most especially in critical times of our lives when we feel we’re being abused in a marriage. In generates an inner strength that we communicate by being intolerant of certain behaviour. Surely that’s the way we behaved as a parent, guiding our children through their childhood in part by being intolerant of and not tolerant of bad behaviour. Isn’t that the way “good citizens” come into being?


I'm not my wife's parent, and she is not a child. Really, we want to act like grown-ups with mutual respect.
Abuse in a marriage is not a good thing, it isn't possible to disagree with that of course.
If your spouse is upset and angry, making demands, or being disrespectful, making demands back won't work either - that will typically escalate into a shouting match. There is nothing I have seen in terms of guidance in the bettermen material as to how one is to show one's intolerance, and how you do that is incredibly important. 
There are two elements that need to be there 
Explaining the effect something has on you and the consequences - actions you will take to safeguard yourself.
Addressing whatever it is they are abusing you over. What is it that you are doing which hurts them, that they are abusive? Because they are abusive it doesnt mean you can ignore thier issue - if you want a good marriage.

Both need to be done calmly and respectfully. What I would want to see in a program like this is the advice to do that.


Another problem here is that making your NUTS non negotiable you may have something that forces you to decide between complying with a NUT and not hurting your wife. In that case if you choose your NUT you will cause damage in your marriage.



> Maybe it just doesn’t work for you. In my case I was being way to patient and tolerant of my wife’s, as I saw it, abusive behaviour. And that just led to more abuse. In a few critical times in my marriage, I tried to get her to see the light so to speak, to help and coach her with better ways. In essence I was trying to rescue her while she was persecuting me. I always thought she was capable of change, that she’d want to change. It wasn't until I constructed a few boundaries, a few N.U.T.s. that I truly recognised just how obdurate she is. For the first time in decades I saw her for how she truly is in the one aspect in our marriage that gave me the greatest problem with her.


I don't know enough about you and your wife to comment sensibly on your situation. There are situations where you can try all the right approaches and nothing works. The patient, tolerating, "sacrificing" model is certainly one that doesn't, on that I agree. But neither is the demanding method. Thats why I am cautious of phrases like "not tolerating", but as I said whether the intolerance helps the marriage or not is very much about how you communicate that intolerance. That factor not being discussed in this program concerns me because it is critical.

There are some situations where you can do nothing at all. Personality disorders and Sociopaths come to mind. They won't change and they are not wired like the rest of us.




> I discovered that in this one thing we had polar opposite, values, beliefs and rules. I could not accept hers and she could not accept mine. It truly was a clash of basic philosophies of life and such there was never going to be a resolution. And I could not live with her any longer because of that. Setting my boundaries got me to that point, a point I’d never got to before. And I am a far happier man for it.


That doesnt bode well. No possibility of agreeing or disagreeing. I still find myself fretting over the possibility that a dealbreaker was created where there wasnt one before. In your situation, it sounds like the boundaries helped. 
I am suspicious of the entire personal growth movement after being in it for a long time and seeing how people - perfectly intelligent, good people - can have their beliefs skewed or altered in unhelpful ways, and in ways which encourage the breakdown of the family, leading to a lot of pain and heartache for a great many. Family and marriage are so often ignored, or given minor lip service in pursuit of developing the individual. Thats what I Don't like. Its all interconnected but that is not acknowledged.

You can never know from somebody's story, particularly someone you have only recently met, and online, how much of that altered belief comes into play into how they see something that happened and where they are now.

Imagine a headline in a womens mag featuring your wife " Mens Group destroyed my 40 year marriage" " My husband used to be patient, loyal, tolerant and understanding until he was recruited by this all male cult when his behaviour changed. He became totally intolerant and used to disappear off to dance naked in the wood with other men, yah di yah di yah"..

I don't know if bettermen do the naked dancing like the MKP do, but there would be something to pick up on.
The point I'm making is that everyone sees these situations filtered through their current belifs and usually in validation of where they are now..

I am not saying that describes you necessarily, and certainly no disrespect is intended there, but I am naturally cautious because I have seen that effect a lot of times, and the ideas "surrounding" the nuts concept ( not the nuts idea itself) ring those sort of alarm bells for me.

Certainly the whole feminisation of men/masculinisation of women is a trend thats unwelcome to me. 
It is a good idea that men can learn from and bond with other men, but I think that needs to be done in a way that supports families and marriage and treats them with a high level of importance, taking specific steps and giving specific advice to men so that they don't cause undue damage with their new found principles - and not funnelling them towards a particular "set" of beliefs or values which may be counter-productive to marriage and family life.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Too much for me to read and respond to 5leaves.

Bob


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I read Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. years ago and I really related to it - as a woman. If my husband were the typical husband who wanted to do what he wanted, I would want him to read it. In my situation, I tried to explain this book to him in an attempt to GET him to go out and have fun with friends. I find nothing wrong with his premise - that when you get married you have an obligation to your family first, and then you have to take care of your own needs (within reason) so that you don't become resentful of your wife and family.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

turnera said:


> I read Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. years ago and I really related to it - as a woman. If my husband were the typical husband who wanted to do what he wanted, I would want him to read it. In my situation, I tried to explain this book to him in an attempt to GET him to go out and have fun with friends. I find nothing wrong with his premise - that when you get married you have an obligation to your family first, and then you have to take care of your own needs (within reason) so that you don't become resentful of your wife and family.


Yes, we can get lost in a marriage, institutionalised. Sometimes it’s not until we’re on the outside that we come to understand just how much we were institutionalised. I really do think some would have it no other way, they’ll stay in the marriage come hell or high-water and good luck to them. Our N.U.T.s. help us maintain who we really are as individuals, inside or outside the marriage.

Bob


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Ok, so all has fallen apart. Just as I felt I was getting past my little crush my wife falls apart saying she can 'feel me slipping away'. I feel horrible, the fact that I have not had a PA or even a real EA is irrelevant at this stage. 

She asked directly about the OW and I lied, directly. I said that I felt that she was attracted to me but it was not reciprocated. I am pretty sure she can see through me. 

She is convinced that I don't love her anymore.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

jamesa said:


> Ok, so all has fallen apart. Just as I felt I was getting past my little crush my wife falls apart saying she can 'feel me slipping away'. I feel horrible, the fact that I have not had a PA or even a real EA is irrelevant at this stage.
> 
> She asked directly about the OW and I lied, directly. I said that I felt that she was attracted to me but it was not reciprocated. I am pretty sure she can see through me.
> 
> She is convinced that I don't love her anymore.


Sorry to hear that James. I did try to tell you that they "know”, they don’t have to be told. I was very aware when my wife was in an EA, no matter that she denied it.

You shouldn’t have lied. Now your wife can’t trust you to tell her the truth. Deceits covered by lies only compound the problem, as you now well know.

Have you thought about showing her your thread? If it was me I would. I would tell my wife that from now on she gets nothing but openess and honesty from me.

Bob


----------



## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

With your woman in this matter, do not lie.

A woman, she will often be able and willing to forgive a dozen crushes but will not overlook the slightest amount of dishonesty from her man.

Even so, admitting a crush, and being open and honest, and especially using humor and maybe a dash of arrogance, and seeing despite this there is NO AFFAIR and only honest communication to your woman, can in many ways communicate a great deal of security with your woman, that you are a red blooded man not dead yet, yet belonging only to your woman.

AFEH is correct.

At this point, you need to be perfectly honest, yes you were flattered from the crush, no there was not an affair, you were hesitant to reveal this because you were dissappointed in yourself and as well, did not want to hurt the feelings of your woman. And now you are clearly seeing now that being honest and open is much more important than these other things, so you are coming clean utterly.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

BigBadWolf said:


> FEH is correct.
> 
> At this point, you need to be perfectly honest, yes you were flattered from the crush, no there was not an affair, you were hesitant to reveal this because you were dissappointed in yourself and as well, did not want to hurt the feelings of your woman. And now you are clearly seeing now that being honest and open is much more important than these other things, so you are coming clean utterly.


That is pretty much what I said.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

jamesa said:


> That is pretty much what I said.


The only person you are deceiving James is your self. You gotta get real man. You are not honest and open. For goodness sake Man Up. Or lose your wife.

Bob


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Sorry to hear that James. I did try to tell you that they "know”, they don’t have to be told. I was very aware when my wife was in an EA, no matter that she denied it.


I know, you were right. She even pin-pointed the timeframe pretty much. It is scary that we give off and respond to chemical signals that we are only partly aware of.



AFEH said:


> You shouldn’t have lied. Now your wife can’t trust you to tell her the truth. Deceits covered by lies only compound the problem, as you now well know.


I know. I told her the truth about what happened, but said I had no feelings for her, which isn't 100% true. I felt that there was no point as I am not going to do anything with this woman and my feelings for her were transitory.



AFEH said:


> Have you thought about showing her your thread? If it was me I would. I would tell my wife that from now on she gets nothing but openess and honesty from me.
> 
> Bob


I think that will only hurt her more for something that is already history.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

James it’s a tough call, a really tough call. Maybe the hardest call you’ll ever have to make.

I will still say to you be totaly transparent to your wife. Like glass.

She knows you far better than you can have even an inkling of.

If you treasure your wife and you value your honesty and integrity be transparent. That’s what soul mates and the very best of friends are. Your wife can get through this if you are totally transparent. I reckon she wont if you aren’t.

Bob


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

So Catherine was absolutely right then. Your wife has been feeling neglected and tossed aside and could even pinpoint when that started happening yet you ridiculed her advice.
You need to be honest with your wife now. Telling her anything less will destroy your marriage. Your wife already knows but she wants you to be honest with her, you continued to lie and your wife will now build this up to be way more than it was. And Catherine is also right when she said when a wife feels like she doesn't matter anymore/being lied to/taken for granted, she will go looking for someone who will fill those needs. 
I also wanted to mention that this might be history for you but it sure as heck isn't for your wife. It is fresh and it is raw. Really raw. Lies make it a million times worse. Good luck to you. You sound like a good guy and I hope you will make the right decision of total honesty.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Brennan said:


> So Catherine was absolutely right then. Your wife has been feeling neglected and tossed aside and could even pinpoint when that started happening yet you ridiculed her advice.


No, Catherine said:

_It not what you want to read but maybe you should anyway. Are you unhappy with the responses to your post? What were you expecting, expressions of sympathy for your struggle with your circuitry. Gentle surgessions to tear yourself away from this electrifying woman and make the monumental sacrifice to deny the pleasures you are entitled to as a man? 

Sorry, I did not have a window into your fantasies of your irresistable chick magnatism. Your responses gives you away. You want acknowledgement of you drawing power. I get it now, you are bragging and you want a slap on the back, right. Too bad, can't give a slap but I can give you a down to earth warning about the precarious nature of your predicament. You are free to not read it. 
_

That is not advice, that is an unjustified attack. I never have and never will ridicule genuinely given advice. Catherine's attacks seem to be about her relationships with the men in her life rather than anything I have said or done. 

My wife doesn't feel neglected, she thinks I am not in love with her and that I am looking elsewhere. That is as hurtful as if I was having an affair. Although I did and said nothing that could be construed as a PA or EA the pain is still there. I need to repair the damage now.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> I don't buy the hard wired stuff and I think you should get that notion out of your head, makes it is too easy to use that excuse to cheat.
> 
> BTW, how do you know that your wife is oblivious to being hit on? She may be when you are around but do you keep an eye on her all day? The irony is that you enumerate the reason this woman looks for reassurance of her attractiveness because of an inattentive husband and you are inattentive to your wife.
> 
> ...


James, THIS is what Catherine posted originally. You took offense but she was dead on.


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Brennan said:


> James, THIS is what Catherine posted originally. You took offense but she was dead on.


No, I didn't ignore my wife and I didn't pursue anyone. You can keep plugging at this all you like Brennan but Catherine got me wrong, even she admitted that. 

All I was trying to do was the right thing by my family. I wanted to resist temptation, which we all feel from time to time, and Catherine thought that justified tearing me apart. That is not constructive or fair.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

James,
You wrote that your wife doesn't feel neglected but thinks you are no longer in love with her and having an affair. That is the PILLAR of feeling neglected for a woman!! Do you not see this?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Your wife feels you don't love her and that you turned your intentions to this OW even checking up on her on FB and earlier hiring her because among other things, she was attractive. I am sure your wife feels awesome right now, not neglected and just over the moon. I wish you the best of luck. Unless you are honest with your wife there will be only three outcomes 1. She will stay with you and resent the hell out of you but will bide her time until the kids are grown and then divorce you. 2. Find another man as revenge and keep it from you. 3. Pull the trigger on the marriage and divorce you in a few years. Which one sounds best?


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

I understand what neglected means yes. What is your point? You seem determined to trip me up somehow, why?


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Your wife feels you don't love her and that you turned your intentions to this OW even checking up on her on FB and earlier hiring her because among other things, she was attractive. I am sure your wife feels awesome right now, not neglected and just over the moon. I wish you the best of luck. Unless you are honest with your wife there will be only three outcomes 1. She will stay with you and resent the hell out of you but will bide her time until the kids are grown and then divorce you. 2. Find another man as revenge and keep it from you. 3. Pull the trigger on the marriage and divorce you in a few years. Which one sounds best?


Catherine? Is that you?


----------



## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

It is tragic that people stoop to points scoring instead of offering advice and support for people in difficult situations. I am tired of these forums being hijacked by the likes of Catherine, Brennan and Lobokies.

I will find another place to get advice.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I didn't stoop to anything, I was telling you how your wife feels. You are choosing to ignore it. Again, best of luck to you. I really wasn't trying to antagonize you in any way. I was trying to explain your wife's point of view. I am sorry if it came across as anything other than concern, that's all. Please be honest with her. You sound like you love her and you two can get past this.


----------

