# why cant i let go



## cheese puff (Jul 24, 2011)

I find myself always thinking of the A my W had. She and i want to put it in the past. we are over 5 years into a R and i cant let go. I have been to IC and MC off and on. i just cant seem to let it go. i get triggered and spiral from there. i make list of why i shoud stay and why i should go. my stay list out weighs my go list. we never argue, we enjoy the same things and have a wonderful time doing them and that will trigger me. i will say to myself, why if we have such a good time,why did she stray. its just hard and years dont help. we have so much going our way and im not happy.i have been months with not even thinking of it and then like a ton brick im slapped back to d-day. i have tried to leave and the kid break my heart. sometimes i feel like im stuck because of the kids, they want us together. we are 33 and will be 100% debt free at 35. we will own our home, cars and business. our close friends have money problems and argue over it all the time.we give them financial advice. i grew up in a home that had financial problem, i promised never to have that problem. sometimes i think thats my biggest trigger. i worked all my 20s to get a home, have a family, provided a childhood she and i never had and then get slapped in the face. I could type for years but i will stop u get the point. i want to leave then i cant it will break her heart my heart and the kids heart. i know with the money i make i would never be alone . my wife is 100x more attractive than i. i know she is not in it for the money because we got married young and built all this together. I just cant grasp if we have all this why did she stray. if she loves me why did she do it. its just hard is all i can say.she has told me 1000x if she could go back and change it she would but it dont help.


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## triedhard111 (Sep 24, 2012)

Man it's amazing how so many stories are alike. Did you ever get a good reason from her why she did it, or what was going thru her mind during it? I know this is what drives me insane. She doesn't give me a very clear or reasonable answer, and I feel like it completely prevents my having any closure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

What have you done to recover?

Has your WW been an open book so you can verify NC?

Was the affair fully exposed?

Did WW send a NC letter?

Has WW answered all your questions about the affair?

Do you still talk about the affair with WW?

Was/is OM a coworker, neighbor, live close by, did the affair take place in your home, car?

Did you get the book Surviving An Affair.


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## cheese puff (Jul 24, 2011)

boogie110 said:


> Dear Cheese puff: I think you should be ON counseling and never off.
> 
> It has been 5 years and yet the pain sounds as if it just happened yesterday - not an attack - an acknowledgement of your pain, of what you have described.
> 
> You are stuck in what I call a holding pattern - but I usually think that should be over with - like you've landed - after 5 years. Not that the pain ever totally disappears, but it should be so much more diluted after 5 years, which leads me to believe you need help from a professional. This is a great site and there are a lot of professionals here that want to help...You say money is no problem, well put your money where your mouth is and type to them for a few days and let it all out. Then do us a favor and come back and tell us how it went. For me, money is more of a problem, but if it's not for you - use your money WISELY and helping yourself come to terms with your pain is money wisely spent, no?


i have done this i will do good for 6 months not even think about the A and then out of no where it hits me. i think my largest problem is the guy who she cheated with. we live in a small town everybody knows everybody. this guy is married he has decated his life to screwing married women. i confronted him one day he denided it all. then he started to give me advice tell me my problem is i trust people. then he follows my wife and confronts her for telling me everything. from what ppl have told me he always keeps a mistress on the side, they are always married. i know 3 ladies he has had a A with. all them tell me the same thing. he destroyed there family and then moved own. some times i think i know to much about him. i ask my wife what attracted her to him. she told me he was always well dressed, organized, clean cut, ect. this bothers me because i feel i am not up to par on those things. i shower everyday i dont stink but i repair manufacturing machines. i cant be well dressed everyday, i get dirty, my hands are stained and rough.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

You're not going to like this but I think you need to move. That or run the OM out of town.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

I am going to throw this out there. She strayed for a reason, something was wrong, to her, in the marriage. What was that? has it been addressed, talked about, confronted?

The why it's eating you up, because her cheating doesn't make sense. Why did she do it, there is a reason. Rather she was lonely, bored, unhappy, thought she was ignored, thought you were not there enough, wanted some excitement, whatever it is has to be addressed. Note, these are not excuses, just HER reasons for cheating. Are those reasons still present?

I don't think she did it because he dressed well. She found something in him that she was missing in the marriage! Discover it see if you can live with it, and then you can hopefully move on from there.

I bet you are closer to resolving this then you think.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Realize that people also stray just to cake eat. It is easy to be the OM.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Realize that people also stray just to cake eat. It is easy to be the OM.


Until the angry BH finds them. 

Is your life back to what it was before the affair? Or is it different?
Because it should be different. She should be busy being the perfect wife to you still.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

cheese puff said:


> i ask my wife what attracted her to him. she told me he was always well dressed, organized, clean cut, ect. this bothers me because i feel i am not up to par on those things. i shower everyday i dont stink but i repair manufacturing machines. i cant be well dressed everyday, i get dirty, my hands are stained and rough.


This is one possible answer. The reason your wife gave you for her cheating is that he is something that you cannot be. You are afraid she will do it again with the next well dressed, clean cut, organized man she has contact with.

This is the dumbest reason I have ever heard from a cheater and it did not satisfy you. You really do need to dig deeper. IF this truly is the reason that your wife cheated, she is one shallow person and probably will do it again.


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## cheese puff (Jul 24, 2011)

well dressed is just what caught her eye. then it went from there. she never said thats why she cheated just what go the ball rolling. im still young i just dont want to be like this 30 years from now.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

theroad said:


> What have you done to recover?
> 
> Has your WW been an open book so you can verify NC?
> 
> ...





cheese puff said:


> well dressed is just what caught her eye. then it went from there. she never said thats why she cheated just what go the ball rolling. im still young i just dont want to be like this 30 years from now.


Cheesepuff doesn't want to do what has to be done. He will not respond to my post because to do so he will have to acknowledge is all that he is doing is throwing a pity/vent party.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

Ovid said:


> You're not going to like this but I think you need to move. That or run the OM out of town.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not a bad idea...


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## cheese puff (Jul 24, 2011)

What have you done to recover?

Has your WW been an open book so you can verify NC? YES!!!! she has been so open and i have veryfied 1000X VAR GPS hole 9 yards.

Was the affair fully exposed? Yes his wife and i both know, i dont talk about it among friends and family

Did WW send a NC letter?No i had never heard of one 5 years ago untill i got on here 3 years ago.

Has WW answered all your questions about the affair?Yes but one. she cant explain why she did it. we can talk about it but its like she cant give me a definite answer. he was nice looking agressive and she tought she liked that but the guilt overwhelmed her.

Do you still talk about the affair with WW?Yes alot.to the point i think i push her away

Was/is OM a coworker, neighbor, live close by, did the affair take place in your home, car? coworker, but she left her job because our MC told us that the only way a R could take place. first night was at motel then rest of the time his autobody shop. my wife resorted to having sex on a air matress in a paint shop. 

Did you get the book Surviving An Affair no but i will.


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## tonyarz (Sep 15, 2012)

I never got over my ex wife's affair. I had to leave after 8 years of thinking about it. I was 30 at the time and still young.


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## cheese puff (Jul 24, 2011)

tonyarz said:


> I never got over my ex wife's affair. I had to leave after 8 years of thinking about it. I was 30 at the time and still young.


do u have kids together. the reason i still hold on. we dont argue infront of them, they have no idea what went on. our son would just be destroyed. he would demand a answer why we split. it would be a huge change for him. i am scared what it may do to him. he will be blind sided


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## river rat (Jan 20, 2012)

Cheese, you keep struggling with the "why", as if it were somehow your fault. It wasn't. It was hers. Only she can tell you why, but she may not know the answer. You mention that you have been in counseling. Has she? If not I'd suggest that. She may then be able to discover what it was/is within her that allowed her to do this terrible thing. By the way, my W's affair occurred in 2003; I still have times when I trigger, but the pain is much less severe, and I have worked out ways to deal w/ it.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Cheesepuff, I cant really offer any advice , only wanted to say that I am 3 years out and I am completely miserable still. Atleast it seems like your wife wants things to get better, maybe?! (Im not there so I dont know how she is all the time). And the OM....he's just a *********, he had no intentions with your wife except to make her a notch on his bed post. I wonder if she realizes that now, or does she think she meant something to him?

If she is trying to make things better and move on and she is being transparent then you are going to have to figure out a way to let it go.....even if you have to look at it like a day at a time.

My husband hasnt been transparent, says he is but NOPE! I dont know if the A is over, at this point he could have started another one? I dont feel loved or valued by him, yet he says he loves me. Sometimes I think I just need/want too much but really is asking to feel loved after being dropped off at the dump too much to ask for? I think not!

Good luck!! I wouldnt wish this feeling on anyone....well maybe the OW (in your case...the OM)


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

wiigirl said:


> not a bad idea...


ty ty :d


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## dblkman (Jul 14, 2010)

theroad said:


> Cheesepuff doesn't want to do what has to be done. He will not respond to my post because to do so he will have to acknowledge is all that he is doing is throwing a pity/vent party.



geesh dude ease up and give him some time to respond! We don't all have TAM up and running 24/7. :scratchhead:


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## dblkman (Jul 14, 2010)

cheese puff said:


> do u have kids together. the reason i still hold on. we dont argue infront of them, they have no idea what went on. our son would just be destroyed. he would demand a answer why we split. it would be a huge change for him. i am scared what it may do to him. he will be blind sided


, 
dude, one thing you should NEVER do is act impulsively without true reflection. I could be wrong but to me it appears you stay for more then just the kids, you stay because you love her which is, ok. Love is not like a faucet you can turn off and on at a whim! 

The reality of having an A is the chances are you will NEVER forget, PERIOD!! But just like everything else in life given a remorseful WS and the right circumstances R has a good chance. You have to realize that there may never be an answer that completely answers your question. There are those who try to narrow down the reasons someone have an A but sometimes we just don't know and neither does the WS. 

There is no secret to this type of healing, if there was I would not have vivid memories of my ex misdeeds from 5 years ago. 

You want it to go away.....not going to happen! If you have no success with your current counselor time to find another one to help you deal with the triggers and put them into perspective. This will help you make a decision that is best for you and your kids. 

Good luck!


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

My impression from everything I've read and my own experience three months after the D day is that you don't get over it. It's like the death of a child. You learn to deal with it and eventually not to think about it so much.


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## dblkman (Jul 14, 2010)

Ovid said:


> My impression from everything I've read and my own experience three months after the D day is that you don't get over it. It's like the death of a child. You learn to deal with it and eventually not to think about it so much.


:iagree:


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

cheese puff said:


> do u have kids together. the reason i still hold on. we dont argue infront of them, they have no idea what went on. our son would just be destroyed. he would demand a answer why we split. it would be a huge change for him. i am scared what it may do to him. he will be blind sided


You do not have to live with your wife to be a good dad. I know plenty of fathers who have a big impact and not be with the mom. This is not a reason to be unhappy in your life. It will one day impact your ability to be a good father.

Maybe you need some time away. Time to work on yourself. Sometimes forgiveness is given before it should have been. True forgiveness only comes after the pain is gone.


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## tonyarz (Sep 15, 2012)

Yes, We have kids together and have been apart for over 10 years. 



cheese puff said:


> do u have kids together. the reason i still hold on. we dont argue infront of them, they have no idea what went on. our son would just be destroyed. he would demand a answer why we split. it would be a huge change for him. i am scared what it may do to him. he will be blind sided


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> I wouldnt wish this feeling on anyone....well maybe the OW (in your case...the OM)


Willing to bet that at least one of them has already felt it. These people are like vampires going around reproducing themselves.


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## cheese puff (Jul 24, 2011)

Labcoat said:


> Willing to bet that at least one of them has already felt it. These people are like vampires going around reproducing themselves.


i remember my wife telling me the OM would tell her his W cheated on her with his best friend. She told me that he would tell her it was ok for him to cheat because of this. He told my w she was the only person he had A with. I new this was incorrect because i new 2 others. Also when i was trying to catch him and my wife caught him with another lady. my wife was so caught up in the fog she thought i was lying.Even to this day he will deny having A with my wife even tho OMW knows and we caught them. i have notes and gifts he gave her. my wife will tell me she was so stupid. i have came up with my own reason as to why she cheated. she grew up with out any father figure, we married young and she had never realy had any positive feeling from a man besides me. i maybe wrong its not a excuse for her A but the only thing i can get out of her.


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## Bugz Bunny (Nov 28, 2011)

Hi cheese puff

I think you are a lot like me,you are a person that just cant get over it or how they say here on TAM a person who can just learn to deal with it...Subconsciously the affair is a dealbreaker for you...

It depends on a lot of things how you will react and heal after an affair...I will ask you some questions but you dont have to answer if its uncomfortable and brings bad memories back and causes you to relieve D day...I ll ask because I want to know what kind of trauma you were exposed by your wife...

How long was the affair ? Have you caught her or did she confess by herself ? Was she immediately remorseful or you had to snap her out of the fog ? Did she TT you and if so for how long ? Has she done something with him that she never wanted to do with you ? You said that you and your wife talk a lot about the affair so I hope it wont be hard to answer these questions...

And now I ll try my best to explain myself about the "dealing with it or geting over it " that I mentioned in the beginning (english is not my native language so its a little bit tough to sometimes find the right and appropriate words to express myself)...

An affair is something that you cant forget or undo and the only winner if BS decides to reconcile is the WS because he gets to go outside the marriage,break the vows and then just gets his life back...This is something that goes through most BSs minds throughout the years...Its not fair but thats how it is with this stuff and life in general sometimes isnt fair...My point is that you will never forget,she cant undo this and the only important thing now is if you can "deal with it (get over it)"...This is the only difference and a big one when it comes to reconcilation and their succes the "dealing with it" part,and thats were I think that you are a lot like me...You are a person that cant overcome this trauma while living with the person who caused it,because subconsciously she is your trigger and every once in a while she brings you back to D day (as you said yourself,it is all good for months and then something triggers you)...

You are a person that can only move on if they can be away from the trigger and in your case away from your wife... I divorced my wife because I knew it will never be the same after her selfish actions and I think that it allowed me to faster move on with my life and concentrate on other important and fun things in life...

You are concerned about your child if you divorce...I have a kid to and I can only tell you that the divorce doesnt affect a kid that much if the parents are good at working together and dont badmouth one another...I am more involved with my kid and have more quality time with him after the divorce and so does his mother and he adapted great on the change that divorce brings...

My advice is to divorce or at least separate for a couple of months (no dating for both of you while separated) and try and see how it goes and affects you...

This post is already to long so I ll stop but if you have some questions just ask and I ll try to help...

Good Luck


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## forevermemorable (Oct 19, 2012)

Why can't you let it go? You can't let it go because of pride and a lack of forgiveness. These two things are holding you back my friend.

*Pride* - because you have tried to do everything by the book and you look at the thanks you get, is by your wife having an affair. You tend to be very legalistic in a lot of things...always by the book/law. You are the type of person that crosses his "I's" and dots his "T's." You are not the controlling type or the aggressive type...you are by the book type. Nothing wrong with that at all and I am not alluding to a problem in that necessary. But, you don't allow room for error. You pride yourself to be on top of EVERYTHING. So, when you wife has an affair, it turns your whole world upside down. Everything that "you" worked for now seems to be in vain (in a matter of speaking). You play it over and over in your mind wondering "How on earth could this have happened."

*Lack of forgiveness* - you have not truly forgiven your wife. I don't care if she came clean with you through much tears and you gave her the line, "Its okay honey, you made a mistake" or something to that affect. You truly haven't forgiven your wife, because it still plagues you. True forgiveness redeems the person who wronged you. It allows freedom and sobriety to cleanse your mind of the wrong. Forgiveness is a very freeing thing. Maybe you thought you had forgiven her (whether it was a spoken word or not), but deep down, you are resentful at her. In fact, so resentful, that you are willing to hold it against her and even desiring to abandon her. The opposite of forgiveness is hate, angry, bitterness, resentment. Is this what has been consuming you in your thoughts about your wife and her affair?

I believe that it takes two to tango. I don't think your wife just had an affair because she was bored one day and thought, "what the heck." Maybe your very "by the book nature" has driven her to the affair (not trying to justify her actions at all). Maybe a lack of emotion and romance...something drove your wife there. Your wife sounds like she is very remorseful and the two of you have been working on a thriving family.

So why on earth do you continue to let satan run around in your mind, placing all these evil thoughts therein? Oh did I just say satan! Yes I did! You my friend need to take every thought captive and not give the demons a place to run freely in your mind. "But I don't believe in demons or satan," you might say. Well, I guarantee you that these thoughts are not natural, but at its very core, evil, vengeful, full of bitter, strife, envy, hate, anger, etc. etc. etc. What I believe about satan is that he comes to rob, kill, and destroy (as the Bible says). And right now, he is trying to destroy your marriage. You want to win this battle against these thoughts, then it stats with forgiveness and laying aside your pride. When you can do this, you will find that the enemy has no place to reside within your mind. You will find yourself a whole lot freer than before.

I really do not mean to sound religious in my approach, because I do not know your beliefs, but I do want to give you some answers as to why I believe the causes for these plagues that reside in your mind. Your wife did you wrong in one of the most violating ways possible. You need healing and that comes with forgiveness and a lack of pride.

I will be praying for you and your family.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

boogie110 said:


> You sound like you need to have a cup of coffee with someone and talk it out - if I lived near by I'd say we chat it up at some shop - but make sure to have a few girl coffee dates a week, ok? That's all some of us can do now just to get through the misery that we never thought as young girls we would ever go through. I mean, why marry? Why go through all this? Why does the other person (the partners in our life) need us so badly that they can't leave us yet they can't not have the other person also? And yes, plenty of others who are divorced who tread on this thread will say - well, leave them. Easy for them - they should be reading the divorced threads - not so easy for the tons of others who stay - those that are trying to cope with infidelity every single minute of each and every day. So we stay - Even if it's 1 year, 5 years, 10 years or until death does us part.


Hi boogie, I would love to do that. I work at home so Im basically stuck all day and my only companionship are a few friends online that I talk to and a couple of friends I talk to via text and my BFF who lives 1000 miles away. I think that makes things alot harder on me. I went out this week to get set up at a temp agency to try to get myself to a better place. Im just not happy anymore and Im tired of feeling like my H doesnt get me or doesnt want to get me. Why wont he just leave if he doesnt want to help me? We have the same fights all the time, he says he loves me, isnt leaving but yet his actions dont show that. Sometimes I feel like Im a stranger to him. I told him the other day I'd rather be divorced and alone then sitting in the same house with him feeling alone. I know that alot of it is me, reading into things all the time, always analyzing things but he really doesnt comfort me when I need it so of course Im going to always worry about things. Anyway I didnt mean to hijack Cheesepuffs post...lol, but wanted to thank you for your suggestion!


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

cheese puff said:


> . i have came up with my own reason as to why she cheated. she grew up with out any father figure, we married young and she had never realy had any positive feeling from a man besides me. i maybe wrong its not a excuse for her A but the only thing i can get out of her.


She cheated because he fed her ego and your W was dumb enough to fall for it. That and she thought she could get away with it (assumed you wouldn't leave). 

Its really that simple.

The only thing I can think of that may have prevented this would had been her knowing you would divorce her without question if she even hinted about having an A. If she is not afraid of you leaving and finding someone else then she is willing to gamble with an A.

This isn't your fault, she made a commitment to you when you got married and choose to ignore it. 

Don't be the nice guy; understand that you even acknowledging her existence is doing her a favor. She doesn’t deserve to be married to you for what she did so she needs to earn her way back and you need to make it clear that if she even sneezes towards another man you will be gone and you will leave her with nothing.

You have to take a very hard line when dealing with cheaters or else you will start to hate yourself for letting them off so easy and to prevent this nonsense from happening again. NEVER assume they learned their lesson, make sure they know you are more than able to leave them at any time.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

cheese puff said:


> Has WW answered all your questions about the affair?Yes but one. she cant explain why she did it. we can talk about it but its like she cant give me a definite answer. he was nice looking agressive and she tought she liked that but the guilt overwhelmed her.
> 
> Do you still talk about the affair with WW?Yes alot.to the point i think i push her away
> 
> Did you get the book Surviving An Affair no but i will.


Glad you are getting the book.

Why is a question that is not worth asking. A satisfactory answer can never be had.

Talking about the affair keeps the memories fresh and alive. Being your WW has told you all there is you must never talk about the affair again.

You will never heal from the affair wound by picking off the scab. That is what you are doing ever time you talk about the affair. Keeping it alive it will never fade into the past.


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## cheese puff (Jul 24, 2011)

theroad said:


> Glad you are getting the book.
> 
> Why is a question that is not worth asking. A satisfactory answer can never be had.
> 
> ...


i have been told that is rug sweeping and will prolong my pain


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

theroad said:


> Talking about the affair keeps the memories fresh and alive. Being your WW has told you all there is you must never talk about the affair again.
> You will never heal from the affair wound by picking off the scab. That is what you are doing ever time you talk about the affair. Keeping it alive it will never fade into the past.


I disagree with this.


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## Son of Kong (Jul 12, 2012)

cheese puff said:


> I find myself always thinking of the A my W had. She and i want to put it in the past. we are over 5 years into a R and i cant let go. I have been to IC and MC off and on. i just cant seem to let it go. i get triggered and spiral from there. i make list of why i shoud stay and why i should go. my stay list out weighs my go list. we never argue, we enjoy the same things and have a wonderful time doing them and that will trigger me. i will say to myself, why if we have such a good time,why did she stray. its just hard and years dont help. we have so much going our way and im not happy.i have been months with not even thinking of it and then like a ton brick im slapped back to d-day. i have tried to leave and the kid break my heart. sometimes i feel like im stuck because of the kids, they want us together. we are 33 and will be 100% debt free at 35. we will own our home, cars and business. our close friends have money problems and argue over it all the time.we give them financial advice. i grew up in a home that had financial problem, i promised never to have that problem. sometimes i think thats my biggest trigger. i worked all my 20s to get a home, have a family, provided a childhood she and i never had and then get slapped in the face. I could type for years but i will stop u get the point. i want to leave then i cant it will break her heart my heart and the kids heart. i know with the money i make i would never be alone . my wife is 100x more attractive than i. i know she is not in it for the money because we got married young and built all this together. I just cant grasp if we have all this why did she stray. if she loves me why did she do it. its just hard is all i can say.she has told me 1000x if she could go back and change it she would but it dont help.


You stay because you love her, you stay because you have hope


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Cheese, is your sex life through the roof these days? If not, what's the problem? Your wife ought to be all over you, all the time. That's how women keep their hooks in us when they think we might wander off the reservation. So, how is it?


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

boogie110 said:


> "The only thing I can think of that may have prevented this would had been her knowing you would divorce her without question if she even hinted about having an A. If she is not afraid of you leaving and finding someone else then she is willing to gamble with an A."
> 
> The shocking thing ArmyofJuan, is that yes that does make some sense to some, yet in my case my husband believed that all the while he was whooping it up with strippers and prostitutes that I would for sure divorce him. I'm still here. It's not that easy right now with a difficult toddler, so I'm just stating that a cheater will cheat no matter what they envision the consequence of their actions.


The reason I said that is because that's how I always thought. I was arrogant enough to assume that I could talk my way back if I ever got caught cheating. Most people that cheat don’t want to risk their M unless they are looking for an exit A. 

Ironically, the one time I got caught cheating on a gf many a moon ago I immediately broke up with my gf out of principle. I felt too guilty to even think about working it out with her so I left (she would stayed with me if I asked).

You are right though, some people will risk everything for an A. Your H is probably an extreme example. 

Right now 2 things keep my W from doing it again. One; her dignity (she cares about status, didn’t realize what a blow to her reputation having an A caused) and two; she knows I will not forgive her and will take her to the cleaners in a D. 

And of course she loves me and thinks I hung the moon NOW. Where was all this when the A was going on lol.

I use to have a zero tolerance policy against cheating and made an exception for my W because of the M. I’m back to zero tolerance again and sticking to it this time and my W knows it.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Cheese, is your sex life through the roof these days? If not, what's the problem? Your wife ought to be all over you, all the time. That's how women keep their hooks in us when they think we might wander off the reservation. So, how is it?


Machiavelli, I dont always agree with what you say but the way you say some things cracks me up. Your terminology is great!


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