# How to disagree with positive results



## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

I am curious what others have done or concluded is the best way to disagree with someone whether it be your spouse, other family members or just another unrelated individual?

When I disagree with someone I want to be honest and straight forward in letting them know I disagree and why. In fact, if I am asked to give my honest opinion I cannot lie- I have know idea why but it is who I am. The problem is honesty tends to offend a lot of people, at least when it comes to a disagreement . From my experiences the "elephant in the room" isn't supposed to be part of the discussion though if it were removed the disagreement would be easier to overcome.

It seems once someone gets offended or angry over a response the possibility of resolving the disagreement dramatically drops. So is there a way to address a sensitive issue in a positive honest as possible manner without offending in a disagreement situation?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

One way is to start by basically repeating their point of view and acknowledging it. Usually there will some aspects of a person's point of view that makes sense to you, so address that in a positive manner. Then, only then, introduce your point of view as an expansion of theirs.

When you do the above, you demonstrate that you acutally listened to the person and value them and have respect for their right to their point of view.

Too often, when people get the chance to voice their opinions, they do it in a way that makes the other speaker feel totally put down and ignored.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

bremik said:


> I am curious what others have done or concluded is the best way to disagree with someone whether it be your spouse, other family members or just another unrelated individual?
> 
> When I disagree with someone I want to be honest and straight forward in letting them know I disagree and why. In fact, *if I am asked to give my honest opinion I cannot lie- I have know idea why but it is who I am. *The problem is honesty tends to offend a lot of people, at least when it comes to a disagreement . From my experiences the "elephant in the room" isn't supposed to be part of the discussion though if it were removed the disagreement would be easier to overcome.
> 
> It seems once someone gets offended or angry over a response the possibility of resolving the disagreement dramatically drops. So is there a way to address a sensitive issue in a positive honest as possible manner without offending in a disagreement situation?


Ok, but if you are NOT asked your opinion, resist the urge to jump in to say you disagree and launch into your reasons.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I think the #1 issue with almost all arguments is that people are only eager to state their side, and are just waiting for the other person to finish talking. There is no real acceptance of what they said. Even if they are wrong, showing that you understand their perspective and that you have heard them does a lot. It won't always work, but, things like "I can see that you feel this way..." Can go a long way to show you are understanding and more importantly, actually listened to what they said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

I like this discussion! What if there is no doubt the person is up to no good- do you still give mentioned forms of respect through listening and repeating or is that a whole different issue? If the intent is good- you both disagree on how to get there but want a positive outcome is one thing. If you disagree because one wants a positive outcome while the other for all practical intent is being malicious with no intent of positive outcome do you argue differently in this case- i.e. be more direct in this case?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bremik said:


> I like this discussion! What if there is no doubt the person is up to no good- do you still give mentioned forms of respect through listening and repeating or is that a whole different issue? If the intent is good- you both disagree on how to get there but want a positive outcome is one thing. If you disagree because one wants a positive outcome while the other for all practical intent is being malicious with no intent of positive outcome do you argue differently in this case- i.e. be more direct in this case?


You could chose to do as above, it might just work out well and get them off their ill intended path.

Or you could just find a reason to leave... not feed the dragon.

Can you give us an example of something that you experienced where a person was being malicious?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

I usually try to see if I can understand how the other person arrived at their opinion and then I attempt to find a flaw in their process or my own that would cause the disparity. If they were arguing for the sake of arguing, just to stir things up, then I tend to agree with their point and disengage from the conversation allowing them to wallow in their own mire.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

The best general example is - Service groups making what are supposed to be general rules for the good of ALL youth involved in an activity- sports, fair, clubs, whatever. But due to general lack of interest from the majority of parents for whatever reasons what you end up with is a very small group of people making rules that directly benefit their own children that are involved and isn't in the best interest of all involved. And in my case I know for a fact the integrity of at least some of these people should be in question but due to who they are friends with or perceived community status it is overlooked. 

As a result of these type of rule making/governing type decisions there is a ripple effect of problems. So you can't address all these other problems without addressing the "elephant in the room" that if you eliminated these very selfish biased rules to begin with the other problems would go away. 

I have yet to find a way to discuss it without nasty unsigned letters appearing in the mail. It becomes a cancer no one wants to deal with and the youth as a whole suffer and stupid offsetting decisions make things worse yet


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

I have to throw this out there before you guys leave me tonight!

For a more positive disagreement- with my wife.

We milk cows- the dairy economy is horrible right now- money is beyond tight.

I can't find a way to get across to my wife she needs to tighten the belt without offending her. She lives on Starbucks and Tim Hortons- I think they are too expensive and buy coffee at dollar general and make my own mixes. She wants our son to be involved in AAU sports. He isn't going to be NBA material even though he is a good teammate and coachable. AAU is every weekend so I stay home and do the work they eat out. If it were me I would either pack lunches or go to dollar menus or just fast food $5 type meals. They go to Buffalo Wild Wings or Culvers or others. Plus you have 1 or 2 times you have to get hotels. To me it is all pointless and has no long term value.

There are more examples but hopefully you get the idea. She isn't malicious but it is very hard for me to discuss without being blunt


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Things that really bring the level of discussion down:

Yelling-obviously
Sighing-my most ****ing hated thing ever
Exasperated movements- head flinging back, rolling your head and or eyes, pppbbbb sound
Huh?- not paying attention...
Laughing-so condescending

I am guilty of most of these...ok, we all are, but I seriously make an effort in a fight to not do this. Sometimes it's hard. I really want to mock laugh or head roll. Gotta fight it, even in absurd situations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

Herschel said:


> Things that really bring the level of discussion down:
> 
> Yelling-obviously
> Sighing-my most ****ing hated thing ever
> ...


My problem is I get to doodling. My wife says I have terrible poker face and can't hide my contempt at bad discussions. But I don't know how to look at somebody when I know they are lying and as a result I have no respect for them.

Guess my doodling is all the things you hate rolled into one?


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

Make a simple spreadsheet, and show her the math. It no doubt isn't balancing. Get all the expenses, including Starbucks & Tim's. 
Then _together_ look for things you can cut out & reduce to make it balance.

We have been through times when we had to cut back, so I hear you. Life of a contractor can be feast or famine. 
Luckily, my wife knows the drill, and always has. 

:smile2:

Tim's.....yes!, but Starbucks???


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

Lurkster said:


> Make a simple spreadsheet, and show her the math. It no doubt isn't balancing. Get all the expenses, including Starbucks & Tim's.
> Then _together_ look for things you can cut out & reduce to make it balance.
> 
> We have been through times when we had to cut back, so I hear you. Life of a contractor can be feast or famine.
> ...


Money management was/is a problem with her parents-who ironically also milk cows- thus the sensitivity from her. But good advice on your part.


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

bremik said:


> Money management was/is a problem with her parents-who ironically also milk cows- thus the sensitivity from her. But good advice on your part.


Lot of folks just don't get it unfortunately. 
My wife really knows all to well. She's an accountant.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

Well that's just cheating then on your part!


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

bremik said:


> Well that's just cheating then on your part!


How times change!

She makes the spreadsheets now!

:laugh:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bremik said:


> I have to throw this out there before you guys leave me tonight!
> 
> For a more positive disagreement- with my wife.
> 
> ...


Do either of you also have a job outside of your dairy business?

How involved is your wife in your finances? Does she pay bills? Is she involved in what gets paid, when, what money is saved, etc?


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

She has had an outside job for some time now. I actually just started a part time job- tho I usually can get 7 hours or so in a day, 

She doesn't directly pay bills but she knows the struggles. A lot of discussions center around how to do something farm related on no money. She has paid bills in past. I don't keep any secrets from her on the bills.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bremik said:


> Money management was/is a problem with her parents-who ironically also milk cows- thus the sensitivity from her. But good advice on your part.


This makes it sound like your wife is not involved in managing the finances or only marginally involved. This being the case, she has is working with a very limited amount of knowledge. Plus you telling her what she should and should not spend might make her feel like you are trying to control or parent her.

Handling your finances as a team is the best way to do it.


There is a very good book that helps with this... it's for both of you to read and do the work together: "Smart Couples Finish Rich".

The author has a series of books. Here is one for her parents.

Start Late, Finish Rich: A No-Fail Plan for Achieving Financial Freedom at Any Age 


After you work on through the Smart Couples book, then the two of you can look at the Dave Ramsey site and program.

Dave Ramsey Homepage - daveramsey.com

I suggest the Smart Couples book first for a few reasons: 

1) they are very clearly written with great examples. For example it has a chapter on what happens when a person saves the few bucks a Starbucks cost.. how a person can save a huge amount just saving that much every day. 

2) The plan is simple to understand. Ramsey get much more in depth. It's good to have the high level map first.

3) The book says no budgets. I know it sounds weird, but I no budgets. Too many people get caught up in developing budgets that turn into exercises of never ending change management. The book explains what to do instead of having a budget.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bremik said:


> She has had an outside job for some time now. I actually just started a part time job- tho I usually can get 7 hours or so in a day,
> 
> She doesn't directly pay bills but she knows the struggles. A lot of discussions center around how to do something farm related on no money. She has paid bills in past. I don't keep any secrets from her on the bills.


Ok.. but she has to be as involved as you are. Many couples make this mistake. The results is what you now have... and often leads to misunderstandings that end the marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I forgot to add the following to the post about the Rich Couples and David Ramsey plans.


The basic Rich Couples plan is that every payday you do:

1) pay yourself first... put at least 10% in savings. 401K if employer matches some of it is gold, otherwise put it in the bank.

2) pay your bills that need to come out of that pay check

3) the rest of that pay check is discretionary to be spent as you like.

Step 3 of the plan leaves out something that I think is very important. The discretionary funds should be split 50/50 between the two of you. Each of you can blow, or save, that money any way you want. And neither of you can complain or criticize the other about how it's spent/saved.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

EleGirl said:


> Ok.. but she has to be as involved as you are. Many couples make this mistake. The results is what you now have... and often leads to misunderstandings that end the marriage.


I was trying to decide how to respond and 2 things occurred to me-

1. I will check those books out

2. I am my mother!!!! She was the administrator of my parent's business and paid the bills and complained about what my dad spent money on - they are divorced now after 43 yrs married and money was a topic brought up often - other than the cheating- during the divorce process. 

So Good Points!!!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bremik said:


> I was trying to decide how to respond and 2 things occurred to me-
> 
> 1. I will check those books out
> 
> ...


I've heard that we marry people who are like our parents with the subconscious intent to make it right this time. But instead we turn into our parent.

It takes a lot of work to change things. But it's well worth the work.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

bremik said:


> She has had an outside job for some time now. I actually just started a part time job- tho I usually can get 7 hours or so in a day,
> 
> She doesn't directly pay bills but she knows the struggles. *A lot of discussions center around how to do something farm related on no money.* She has paid bills in past. I don't keep any secrets from her on the bills.


I remember a joke about someone asking a farmer what he would do if he won the lottery. His answer: "Keep farming until it is gone."

Is *this *that kind of situation?


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## Katiebird (Jun 7, 2010)

Money issues are tough, because at times, I feel like the arguments and accusations regarding money are a cover for another issue. H and I struggle with this almost continually. I have been accused of blowing his life savings when I was cleaning out the refrigerator, yet we have parts to tools and equipment -- thousands of dollars worth -- that has been purchased but never installed/fixed. We have a car I cannot drive without his permission. It can be a control issue which is probably what the OP's wife is feeling.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

tech-novelist said:


> I remember a joke about someone asking a farmer what he would do if he won the lottery. His answer: "Keep farming until it is gone."
> 
> Is *this *that kind of situation?


I don't think so. Farming is very different than a lot of businesses especially if you are like us and didn't inherit a farm to start with. When you put your life into it you have to ride it as long as you can to get the payback.

I don't want to get to caught up in the finance discussion. Just really trying to do a better job of not ticking people off in discussion. I have seen people do a wonderful job of disagreeing with someone and come out smelling like roses. I seldom get that response and my wife says my tone is a lot of the problem. I think I am maybe too direct.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

Katiebird said:


> Money issues are tough, because at times, I feel like the arguments and accusations regarding money are a cover for another issue. H and I struggle with this almost continually. I have been accused of blowing his life savings when I was cleaning out the refrigerator, yet we have parts to tools and equipment -- thousands of dollars worth -- that has been purchased but never installed/fixed. We have a car I cannot drive without his permission. It can be a control issue which is probably what the OP's wife is feeling.


Yes and the problem is as elegirl mentioned even if she is aware of certain aspects of the finances she isn't totally involved. This can create resentment because the money issues are always on my mind but most likely not hers because she simply isn't always dealing with it like I am. And actually she grew up that way under poor finance conditions where I was fortunate to grow up in an environment where my parents made good money so lack of money wasn't an issue. You would think I would be more likely to be the spender.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

It sounds like you know exactly why you don't disagree well and offend people. Try not being so direct and watch your tone as these are the things your wife tells you. She knows you best, I would trust and respect her opinion. I agree with the others... Don't rush to disagree with them. Verbalize to them that u understand their point and say something postive about it. Then if you must state your opinion, do so respectfully, and without being too direct. Remember, your not right, this is just ur opinion. The other person is not wrong, it's their opinion. You need to be respectful when disagreeing and it's important to remember that this is not a wrong or right type of argument.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

bremik said:


> I am curious what others have done or concluded is the best way to disagree with someone whether it be your spouse, other family members or just another unrelated individual?


 To disagree is an art form, to say the least.



> When I disagree with someone I want to be honest and straight forward in letting them know I disagree and why. In fact, if I am asked to give my honest opinion I cannot lie- I have know idea why but it is who I am.


As the other poster indicated, it is all about respect.



> The problem is honesty tends to offend a lot of people, at least when it comes to a disagreement . From my experiences the "elephant in the room" isn't supposed to be part of the discussion though if it were removed the disagreement would be easier to overcome.


Do you stay silent, disrespecting yourself AND disrespecting them, as you are assuming they will become upset? We all deserve a voice.



> It seems once someone gets offended or angry over a response the possibility of resolving the disagreement dramatically drops. So is there a way to address a sensitive issue in a positive honest as possible manner without offending in a disagreement situation?


The problem is not that they get upset, but how you (for instance) would handle that angry person from that point forward. The really long-winded answer is in my free communication book.

The short answer is that you do have the ability to voice your opinions and leave it up to them to handle it well. If you accept this, then you can also disarm their anger that erupts. The truth isn't good or bad, it is just the truth. My partner is the most blunt woman on the planet, and I could get butt-hurt about it, or appreciate it for what it is. I appreciate it.

If they get upset, just listen and react with curiosity. Shrug your shoulders, but don't invalidate their anger.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I envy your farm life bremik. How many acres?

My H and I both really watch our tone, respectfulness and humility with each other. 

Does she take constructive criticism well in other areas? Or is she sensitive to ALL constructive criticism?

Would you classify your criticism as constructive or destructive?


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

I don't know how to classify my criticism- I like to think it is objective and constructive but if it is often met with contempt I would have to assume maybe it isn't as good as I think it is?

If you don't have money you don't spend on anything but essentials, if you don't have good boundaries than stay away from temptations or situations you don't do well at, if you are going to be consumed with school sports events then you have to work later or harder during down times on your own business, if you don't want to deal with trying situations and make your spouse deal with it than don't criticize your spouse for how they deal with it.

To me that is black and white but I can't always convey that in a manner to not cause tension. I can tell you right now tension is coming- bill paying is tight, my wife just paid for hotels for next weekends away AAU games, our son had prom last night at girlfriends school and will again next week at his school. Easily have spent $5-600 that needs to go towards farm bills or essential personal expenses. The money will have to come from somewhere- and in my mind maybe some of that should be trimmed. We have discussed boundaries with a particular co worker of my wifes as well as full disclosure on her part when questionable things have happened- I am currently aware that more than once in the last week those boundaries were pushed and I wasn't told about it.

I will be in trouble or cause tension for bringing it up on top of financial issues that will need to be tended to. I don't want to make her out to be a monster- maybe it is me and I am controlling. That's why if I could be cooler and have more positive results from discussions maybe things would be better in the long run.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Well, here's the thing bremik... It sounds like you may be taking ownership for her reactions. I would take some time to self assess well, which is what it sounds like you are trying to do and determine "are my requests reasonable and constructive?" "Are her reactions reasonable and constructive?" OR are either unreasonable and destructive? Because if you are reasonable/constructive and she'a not, that is handled differently than if you are unreasonable/destructive. It sounds like she might be blameshifting.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

One of my guides is our children- 1 in college and 2 still in HS. All are very well liked, do well in school, have a work ethic- know they have to work to get what they want. To me that's a good sign of my wife and I's relationship. Or can it be argued we do a good job of hiding issues?

I think my problem is my wife's love language is words of affirmation. It makes it hard for her to take any criticism and easy for others to cause trouble. I think criticism to her no matter how gentle is a slap in the face or worse. She so needs daily positive comments and as much as I compliment her it probably never is too much in her mind. So how do I positively disagree?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Acknowledge her perspective is one way, but she needs to mature to the degree to be able to hear correction and not have hyper reactions. Of you know you are in the right, reasonable, heart in the right place, the first step is to stand in that truth. Her reactions belong to her. Some of her reactions could be rooted in her past which would not belong on your shoulders. Sounds like you may need the book Boundaries.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Let's put it this way... You don't own her reactions, but her reactions could be feedback. If her reactions are unreasonable, you need boundaries. If they are reasonable, you need to further self assess and do some personal work in good communicatio, perspectives, attitudes, empathy and respect.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

@farsidejunky

Far has had some problems with his wife and overspending. Far, would you like to share some advice with bremik?


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks for the input to this point it's all good! This might be silly but maybe it will help- I am a very cause and effect person- in my mind if you don't check the oil in your old car that you know uses oil then you shouldn't be surprised when it runs out of oil. If you have no intentions of getting into trouble but you hang around people that want to get you into trouble then don't be surprised if you get into trouble. If money gets spent on "luxury or non-essential " items than don't be surprised if you don't have money to spend on essential items.

To me that is all very black and white. My wife is very carefree and hip reaction type person- of which was an attraction for me so I can't completely condemn her for something I was attracted to her for. However, I think this cause troubles in discussions because I see a problem coming and she doesn't until after the fact and then is surprised. I might come off as unreasonable worrying about something that hasn't happened yet.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

If her spending is destructive it is not unreasonable to send up a warning flare.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

In my opinion it can be without regard to what is and is not important. But everyone has different opinions to what that is- I know bad answer.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

bremik said:


> In my opinion it can be without regard to what is and is not important. But everyone has different opinions to what that is- I know bad answer.


True and it can be quite a feat to get on the same page.

Mutual rules of engagement are a good idea.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

It does seem to be a very elusive page


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

It took my H and I a long time to get there, so I understand.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

BL would there be a particular thread of yours to read on how you got there?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

No, but I can share it here if you like.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I think the biggest problem with these kinds of disagreements is centered in the idea that people have to agree to get along.

They don't. In fact, sometimes they get along better, have better relationships, and with a far better result if they don't.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

All good thoughts! I generally give up on a discussion that is maybe getting heated over something that isn't important and I try to stay completely away from the religion, politics type of discussions.

When people have an ulterior motive/ agenda for something that's not for the benefit of everyone that's when I get the most direct. I want to cut through the crap and basically expose them. I just have 0 tolerance for people that lie or are selfish when dealing with group issues. The problem is even if I say nothing my wife says I show it on my face so I get into trouble anyway!!!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

bremik said:


> All good thoughts! I generally give up on a discussion that is maybe getting heated over something that isn't important and I try to stay completely away from the religion, politics type of discussions.
> 
> When people have an ulterior motive/ agenda for something that's not for the benefit of everyone that's when I get the most direct. I want to cut through the crap and basically expose them. I just have 0 tolerance for people that lie or are selfish when dealing with group issues. The problem is even if I say nothing my wife says I *show it on my face so I get into trouble anyway*!!!


So did my husband, show his angst on his face even if he didn't say anything and we found out that those times of upset were the things that needed perspective work. He was not one to self assess well. He carried two beliefs that fueled most of our non stop arguments. One was that his feelings were valid no matter what. No self assessment of those feelings required. The second was that if I didn't agree with him I must not understand him or am less intelligent. And those two in tandem were hell on earth. Well, there is one thing I can tell ya... I KNEW that wasn't the truth, so I started there. I stood in the truth of the FACT that he did NOT marry a stupid woman. He eventually stopped thinking that and gained tremendous respect for me. Then when he got with the professionals is when he started to see that he needed to self assess his feelings for accuracy. That was the first concrete change I saw in him right before those divorce papers were to go out. When I saw that I knew we had a fighting chance and put the papers on hold for two weeks. When he said the words, "This is how I feel, but I may not be right," it was music to my ears. It just grew from there. Within a month I cancelled the papers. He came home a few months later.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

so he actually did leave for a short period? You said your husband got angry- my wife just cries- anger is my thing not hers. Just trying to figure out how to continue on with the plan


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

bremik said:


> so he actually did leave for a short period? You said your husband got angry- my wife just cries- anger is my thing not hers. Just trying to figure out how to continue on with the plan


Yea, he did. After I kicked him out he stayed gone between three to four months. He returned when we felt it was safe enough. 

In your situation, I would assess how much growth in boundaries she has had. If it is none what so ever, I would hit it hardcore and say "you know what, I should not have to live years with chronic poor boundaries in my wife, this has now passed my ability to cope. Going forward I will be requiring you to receive help from a professional. If you refuse professional help I will be separating by xyz date. If after separation you are still refusing, you will be choosing to risk divorce with me." 

Its a one shot, heads up, I'm done, but to be fair I'm giving you one shot to make it right before I leave kind of thinking. 

If you assess and you determine, that there has been some growth I would approach it from "I appreciate the growth that is there in boundaries, but I do want to be very honest and let you know it is still no where near where it needs to be and this needs to be taken very seriously because it is leaving our marriage at risk because I refuse to live with weak boundaries." and go from there, probably rolling into the statement above in modified form. 

Now.... here is the caveat. You "just now" beefed up YOUR boundaries with her, so has there been enough time to guage growth. That's the unknown. I still don't think she is taking you serious enough. "I will not be living with weak boundaries, so you need to make up your mind whether you are going to take me serious or not because I am losing patience. And they WILL run out"

I just wouldn't mince words with her. Its like trying to live with someone who walkes in and daily knocks a hole in the sheet rock of a wall. Then walks in and does it again the next day, then again and again... totally destroying the roof over their head. How far would you go to make sure the next time they walk in the door, then choose different? Would you stay with destructive behavior like that long term? I know I wouldn't. Not anymore.... got my belly full of it a long time ago and I just can't anymore, so I speak sooner than later AND in a way that causes them to take me serious THE FIRST TIME. :FIREdevil:

I'm not cruel about it, but they "get it."


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

Very helpful!!! She has done SOME things to improve but he is still acting unprofessional in my opinion. This is her weakness with everyone but me- she won't be direct and stop him. 

But you are right- that's all fine and dandy she has improved but the core problem still exists so you hate to use a cannon for something a bb gun would take care of but at the same time the bb gun just does't pack the punch she needs. We are in same cycle of wash rinse repeat and it sucks. Better than the past but still the cycle. He MAY be a nice guy unhappy with his marriage but doesn't make the threat any less. I just don't think you can keep telling the an opposite sex coworker how wonderful they are and how much you like talking to them without raising flags.

When he was gone how did you communicate? Did you date?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@bremik:

I commented in one of your other threads as well.

Overspending. My wife has had three periods of overspending.

The first was in 2004, and I bailed her out. Roughly $5000. Totally her fault. But...I did not levy consequences. 

The second was in 2014, about $14K. I bailed most of it out. I took all of her credit cards. My fault for allowing it to happen because she had demonstrated her ability to run up debt.

The third time was early this year. I let her use a card twice while I was out of town, and she never put it back. Another 5K. Again, totally my fault. I knew better. Now she accounts for everything she spends money on when I ask for it. 

I'm not going to lie. I ******* hate it. But I hate additional debt even more.

So...

There is a common theme going on in your threads, Bremik. You do not levy consequences. You identify boundaries just fine, but the reason she runs roughshod over them is because she knows you don't have the spine to enforce anything. 

And FTR, she is not being evil, conniving, or necessarily methodical per se. She is doing what she has probably always done without concern for you because you allow it.

Another thing. Do you need your wife to see things your way? What if she doesn't? Will you still apply consequences?

My wife used to used my innate (translation: OCD level) fairness against me. If we disagreed, she appealed to my fairness to get me to back off my consequences.

Now, for the most part, if I am going to levy consequences, I don't give a **** if she likes them or not. Well, that is not entirely true. I do care, because I hate doing it. But I do it anyway. And I tell her I don't care if she doesn't like it. And funny, since I have taken this stance, boundaries are rarely pushed anymore.

Until you get to that point, both over finances and her interaction with OSF and coworkers, nothing will change.

Lastly, either it is important enough to lose your marriage over, or you should accept it. Which is it?

Until you identify which, you will likely be here again in 2022 complaining about boundaries...again.



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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

bremik said:


> Very helpful!!! She has done SOME things to improve but he is still acting unprofessional in my opinion. This is her weakness with everyone but me- she won't be direct and stop him.
> 
> But you are right- that's all fine and dandy she has improved but the core problem still exists so you hate to use a cannon for something a bb gun would take care of but at the same time the bb gun just does't pack the punch she needs. We are in same cycle of wash rinse repeat and it sucks. Better than the past but still the cycle. He MAY be a nice guy unhappy with his marriage but doesn't make the threat any less. I just don't think you can keep telling the an opposite sex coworker how wonderful they are and how much you like talking to them without raising flags.
> 
> When he was gone how did you communicate? Did you date?


Absolutely we did. He and I cannot stay away from each other. It was reduced significantly and talks were VERY strained times, but as the skills improved him returning home just happened organically. We knew it was the right time.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

bremik said:


> Very helpful!!! She has done SOME things to improve but he is still acting unprofessional in my opinion. This is her weakness with everyone but me- she won't be direct and stop him.
> 
> But you are right- that's all fine and dandy she has improved but the core problem still exists so you hate to use a cannon for something a bb gun would take care of but at the same time the bb gun just does't pack the punch she needs. We are in same cycle of wash rinse repeat and it sucks. Better than the past but still the cycle. He MAY be a nice guy unhappy with his marriage but doesn't make the threat any less. I just don't think you can keep telling the an opposite sex coworker how wonderful they are and how much you like talking to them without raising flags.
> 
> When he was gone how did you communicate? Did you date?


Stop focusing on who's right and who's wrong.

Start focusing on what you will tolerate, and what you won't. Articulate it to her, and mean it.

"Wife, I won't stay married to a woman that acts this way to another man. Other men might, and I'm not those men. You can either decide to stop, or you can decide not to be married."

Say it slowly, quietly, looking her in the eyes while you do it. And then turn around and walk away.

And then DON'T DISCUSS IT AGAIN. Go on with your life. Act like your life is the cat's ass.

If it happens again, tell her to stop sleeping in the bedroom and contact a lawyer. With her full knowledge. Don't discuss it, rationalize it, excuse it, or apologize for it. Just start making logistical plans to leave.

She will either want to stay married, or not.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

Farside that is a pretty well presented piece of info you had. I don't have to be right but as dumb as it sounds I don't want to be wrong in my assessment of the situation.

I really feel she just doesn't think. And you described that perfectly. The crying hits me to the core and I back off. Blossom L is almost what I would rather have happen - I would rather be mad at her - it would be a lot easier.

marduk you also made good points


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

bremik said:


> Farside that is a pretty well presented piece of info you had. I don't have to be right but as dumb as it sounds I don't want to be wrong in my assessment of the situation.
> 
> I really feel she just doesn't think. And you described that perfectly. The crying hits me to the core and I back off. Blossom L is almost what I would rather have happen - I would rather be mad at her - it would be a lot easier.
> 
> marduk you also made good points


Great.

Now what are you going to do about it?

Talk less, do more.

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