# Lack of Affection/Sex Enough to Derail a Marriage?



## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

I have been married 8 years. I come from a very affectionate family upbringing, and have a high sex drive.

My wife comes from a dysfunctional upbringing and is not very affectionate. We have talked about this as a problem for me over the years. Things have never really changed, and it is usually me instigating anything in this department.

The same goes for sex. My wife takes medication that affects her sex drive, possibly, and also just has a lower sex drive. We have spoken at nausea about this as well. It has never changed. I always instigate, and even though we have no kids, once a week is pretty much the norm, maybe even once every two weeks.

Unfortunately both these issues are huge to me. Even though we have spoken about them, nothing ever changes. 

In regards to sex, I have suggested seeking medical opinions/help or counselling. My wife has said no to both.

In regards to affection, it confuses me as to why she cannot be more affectionate if she really does love me. If she is attracted to me, but her constitution is not to be extra affectionate, would not my discussions of how important to me stir her on to change?

Perhaps I am asking too much. But both of these topics are making me seriously consider the future. I am at my end. Are my expectations just that out of whack? Are these two things just something I should accept as negatives in the relationship and move on and be happy? Any comments would be so appreciated.

YT


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## jdm (Mar 30, 2011)

The sex will eventually become nonexistent. My husband and I went from having sex once a week to once a month to whenever now. The sex thing will get worse and you will feel like you don't want to beg her for some so you'll give up. The affection you might be able to work on though.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

youngstown said:


> Perhaps I am asking too much. But both of these topics are making me seriously consider the future. I am at my end. Are my expectations just that out of whack? Are these two things just something I should accept as negatives in the relationship and move on and be happy? Any comments would be so appreciated.
> 
> YT


Nope, nope, nope. You should take action to get what you want now because it's not going to get better and it's not going to go away. I'm not big on quitting but it is a valid option. If you stay, you have to work on getting what you want. You have 8 years going for you and you have an in-depth knowledge of your partner. You need to work persistently to accomplish you goals


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over but expecting a different result. My dh wasn't interested in sex with me but I took the initiative to fix it (it was my problem). If nobody makes an effort it only gets worse. Mine was getting worse too until I started changing.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

You are NOT wrong for wanting sex more often. Women often fail to realize how importance sex and affection is, until their man leaves or strays. The fact that your wife refuses to seek help, shows that she doesn't care. Perhaps she shows her love in different ways than you like to receive it. 
My husband was very cold when I met him; he came from a reserved WASP family. I kept kissing him, hugging and complimenting Mr.G until he became warmer. That was when we were dating. Now I get passionate kisses as greetings and he says "I love you" every day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Leah L (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm sorry you are going through this.

I agree with everyone, it will not get better on its own. As they say, sex is a small part of a happy marriage, but if its bad, its everything. Something along those lines anyway.

Assuming you have a solid relationship otherwise, I think it would be a shame for her not to explore counseling, it might benefit in other areas. Perhaps you could suggest a truce of sorts....no sex pressure, let the issue lie for awhile if you both are willing to work on the issue from a different angle (as in seeing a doc, counselor, together, separate, whatever).

Perhaps that would give her an incentive, if only to get you to stop nagging (pardon the term). She may start counseling for that reason, but I suspect she will continue for the bigger picture.

fyi - I had a difficult episode in my life and after many years finally decided to pick up a few books on the subject due to my bad dreams. LSS I only wish I would have done so sooner, it was one of the best things I ever did for myself. 

Good luck, Leah


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

jdm said:


> The sex will eventually become nonexistent. My husband and I went from having sex once a week to once a month to whenever now. The sex thing will get worse and you will feel like you don't want to beg her for some so you'll give up. The affection you might be able to work on though.


I have had bouts where I just did give up asking, for like a month at a time. Difficult with a high sex drive to hold out though! Catch 22. But I agree, there are times where I just get tired of asking all the time, and bringing up the fact we don't make enough time for sex.

I have asked this before, and others seemed to agree, that 38 yr olds without any kids prob would be having sex greater than once a week. That is supposed to be one of the benefits of no kids! lol And I am constantly initiating. And usually delayed, and that is when once a week turns into once every two weeks. Mainly though, once a week. Which I still think is low. 

I am super attracted to my wife, and once a week just doesn't cut it.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

Mrs.G said:


> You are NOT wrong for wanting sex more often. Women often fail to realize how importance sex and affection is, until their man leaves or strays. The fact that your wife refuses to seek help, shows that she doesn't care. Perhaps she shows her love in different ways than you like to receive it.
> My husband was very cold when I met him; he came from a reserved WASP family. I kept kissing him, hugging and complimenting Mr.G until he became warmer. That was when we were dating. Now I get passionate kisses as greetings and he says "I love you" every day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you really truly believe that since she refuses to seek help, that she doesn't care? Because I think exactly this, but never have said it. I understand medication might be causing it, or just a low sex drive. But if it is an issue I keep mentioning, and the importance to me and our relationship, would you not make the effort to seek counselling/doctors opinion? If I flip this around, and I am the one not interested. Well, I cannot fathom not seeking some guidance from a 3rd party, if my significant other has stated how big of an issue it is.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over but expecting a different result. My dh wasn't interested in sex with me but I took the initiative to fix it (it was my problem). If nobody makes an effort it only gets worse. Mine was getting worse too until I started changing.


Perhaps since nothing has changed much over the last years, I should state things in a more dire tone. That I am considering leaving? I do not know how else to get my point across. 

We have great discussions on both sex and affection. But there is never any sustained changes. I do not know any other options at this time to get my point across.

I have turned miserable lately, and that has affected the relationship. And it is because of the above. It just has pushed me to the breaking point.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

youngstown said:


> We have great discussions on both sex and affection. But there is never any sustained changes. I do not know any other options at this time to get my point across.


It's sad, but you have answered your own question. She has no desire to change. Period. She came from a family in which affection was not shown. She's comfortable with the status quo.

If this is a deal-breaker for you, and it sounds like it is, then you have to decide whether to stay and be miserable, or leave.

After we invest ourselves in a relationship, it is difficult to end it, not to mention painful. As I have said before, when the pain of staying exceeds the pain of leaving, we will go.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

Prodigal said:


> It's sad, but you have answered your own question. She has no desire to change. Period. She came from a family in which affection was not shown. She's comfortable with the status quo.
> 
> If this is a deal-breaker for you, and it sounds like it is, then you have to decide whether to stay and be miserable, or leave.
> 
> After we invest ourselves in a relationship, it is difficult to end it, not to mention painful. As I have said before, when the pain of staying exceeds the pain of leaving, we will go.


So do others feel the same on the affection issue? If you grew up in an environment that wasn't affectionate, would it be impossible to change? If your spouse mentioned they really need to be shown that, would you be able to change and become affectionate even though you never were that type of person?

Would you make an effort for sex more than once a week? Because my answers to both of these are definitely. If I valued the relationship, I would make efforts to rectify.

That investment is the hard part. I cant get past the investment of 8yrs, and then throwing it away. Very tough to get over that fence, yet, being miserable for the next 40 yrs will be much worse.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

If she's not willing to take some steps to address the issues, then the odds of things changing are pretty slim. I don't know that it's "impossible" to change, but it's just not going to happen on it's own.

With regards to sex more than once a week... I would likely have been "ok" with that in my marriage, although not really happy. When it became once every couple of weeks, or once a month, then it really started to stick in my craw. It was one of several reasons for me leaving my wife.

A marriage without affection and/or sex is at best a friendship, in my opinion. It's not what was agreed to in most people's wedding vows.

C


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

PBear said:


> If she's not willing to take some steps to address the issues, then the odds of things changing are pretty slim. I don't know that it's "impossible" to change, but it's just not going to happen on it's own.
> 
> With regards to sex more than once a week... I would likely have been "ok" with that in my marriage, although not really happy. When it became once every couple of weeks, or once a month, then it really started to stick in my craw. It was one of several reasons for me leaving my wife.
> 
> ...


That is also my concern. That maybe once a week is not that bad, and my expectations are skewed. 

When I "signed" on for the marriage, both of these issues were not that bad. The affection wasn't great, but it was still early. We have had good discussions on both topics over the years, but nothing has changed. So now it has come to a boil for me. 

Before walking away, I am concerned that maybe it is just my expectations that need adjusting.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I would not mind a roommate if she were a roommate I wouldn't evict tomorrow if she were a real roommate. Right now she's downstairs on hour 2 of her latest phone conversation today. It's after 2pm she has yet to say hello or clean up her mess in the kitchen from yesterday. I am glad she got the tax filings sent off to the accountant, but that was last week. Are you rested enough from that yet, honey?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

youngstown said:


> That is also my concern. That maybe once a week is not that bad, and my expectations are skewed.
> 
> When I "signed" on for the marriage, both of these issues were not that bad. The affection wasn't great, but it was still early. We have had good discussions on both topics over the years, but nothing has changed. So now it has come to a boil for me.
> 
> Before walking away, I am concerned that maybe it is just my expectations that need adjusting.


I wasn't saying what I did to minimize your situation. I'm also 43 years old, and I suspect you're quite a bit younger than that. Also had kids running around for the last 12 years too... All I can say is that it's likely to get worse, not better. At least without someone making an effort to change, and that's what seems to be missing. A desire to make changes.

C


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

PBear said:


> I wasn't saying what I did to minimize your situation. I'm also 43 years old, and I suspect you're quite a bit younger than that. Also had kids running around for the last 12 years too... All I can say is that it's likely to get worse, not better. At least without someone making an effort to change, and that's what seems to be missing. A desire to make changes.
> 
> C


38yrs old. Yes I guess I keep hoping for the possibilities. I see so much potential, but we never get there.

I intentionally left out the fact my wife also deals with depression. It has been quite severe on and off for the last 8 years. Off of work from time to time, from a week to several months. 

The disease obviously plays into this. It does not help the sex that is for sure, but even when her disease is controlled, sex and affection are no different. So that is why I purposely left that piece of information out of the discussion up to this point.

Problem is, when you add in the disease to the mix, it makes it that much more difficult to rationalize ever getting to the point where I think we could/should be. That potential becomes that much harder to ever achieve. Depression puts such a drain on a relationship, it is very hard.

So as I read my posts, and the others here, I wonder what I am waiting for...


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I would think depression makes things much worse, yes... Dealing with the side effects of the medications or the effects of depression itself...  Has there been exploration in different medications (assuming she's on some?). Also, is she on any form of birth control? Hormonal birth control can really impact a woman's sex drive.

C


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

PBear said:


> I would think depression makes things much worse, yes... Dealing with the side effects of the medications or the effects of depression itself...  Has there been exploration in different medications (assuming she's on some?). Also, is she on any form of birth control? Hormonal birth control can really impact a woman's sex drive.
> 
> C


Multiple types of depression medication. Birth control pills yes also.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

What are you waiting for? You're waiting for her to change to your expectations. And I'm not for one minute saying your expectations are the least bit unreasonable, but your wife is indicating they are.

You missed my point entirely. Deal with WHAT IS, not WHAT IF, because at this moment in time here's what you have: a wife who is not interested in sex, a wife who doesn't "trim" down there (and you mentioned this was somewhat distasteful to you), a wife who is perfectly fine going along with a sexless marriage, or (at best) a marriage in which she endures sex when you initiate it.

So right now you may have all that she is willing to give. You have tried discussions, MC, using the "D" word, and to what avail?

Nothing changes if nothing changes. Sound simplistic? It's not. It's your current situation. You can live with WHAT IS and realize it may never change, or separate. 

Separation does not necessarily lead to divorce. Frequently, the spouse who was unwilling to budge will suddenly see the loss of their partner and be willing to move towards mutual changes that will benefit both.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

Prodigal said:


> What are you waiting for? You're waiting for her to change to your expectations. And I'm not for one minute saying your expectations are the least bit unreasonable, but your wife is indicating they are.
> 
> You missed my point entirely. Deal with WHAT IS, not WHAT IF, because at this moment in time here's what you have: a wife who is not interested in sex, a wife who doesn't "trim" down there (and you mentioned this was somewhat distasteful to you), a wife who is perfectly fine going along with a sexless marriage, or (at best) a marriage in which she endures sex when you initiate it.
> 
> ...


Not sure where you got the trimming reference, as I never said anything about this. My main concern was that perhaps my expectations were out of whack, but from what people have replied with that does not seem to be the case.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

So would counselling make sense as the next logical step? I really do not want to completely "throw away" 8 years quite yet. Unless that is all I am left with...


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

Been there, done that, moved on and much happier.

Sex and affection are very big parts of a relationship for me and I was 61 when I moved out.

In Judaism many rabbis say a satisfying sex life is considered important enough that divorce is understandable in its absence.

My stbx sounds like yours - I brought up my needs, she listened, decided they weren't important in her eyes but never made any changes. After three years I gave up.

There are a lot of women who enjoy sex, some, even in their 60s appreciate a good lover and an apartment with solid walls.



youngstown said:


> Perhaps since nothing has changed much over the last years, I should state things in a more dire tone. That I am considering leaving? I do not know how else to get my point across.
> 
> We have great discussions on both sex and affection. But there is never any sustained changes. I do not know any other options at this time to get my point across.
> 
> I have turned miserable lately, and that has affected the relationship. And it is because of the above. It just has pushed me to the breaking point.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

So if my wife states that affection is just low because that is how she was brought up, she is not an affectioniate person, is that where it should end? Am I wrong for wanting to have more?

If the sex is affected by depression, am I wrong for wanting more?


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

You are not wrong, but you are faced with some difficult choices and you are looking for support from TAM.

Ask yourself what are you getting out of this marriage? What will the years ahead bring? Sexual frustration in my experience doesn't decrease much with age, it leads to anger and misery, and will eventually lead to parting. Life is short, a lost day cannot be regained. 

Humans desire for sex is innate, every creature on this globe "wants" to produce offspring, it is a part of our very being and cannot be easily denied.

Your wife is not the woman you thought you were marrying. If she won't work on her depression, you need to forget about questions of right and wrong, forget about guilt, decide how you want to live. You might want to write a long essay or keep a diary, or see a good counselor as part of the process.



youngstown said:


> So if my wife states that affection is just low because that is how she was brought up, she is not an affectioniate person, is that where it should end? Am I wrong for wanting to have more?
> 
> If the sex is affected by depression, am I wrong for wanting more?


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

So I am not crazy for contemplating leaving based on once a week sex and lack of affection? Because I think I am at some points, and that's when I waver back into doing nothing..except staying miserable.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

youngstown said:


> So I am not crazy for contemplating leaving based on once a week sex and lack of affection? Because I think I am at some points, and that's when I waver back into doing nothing..except staying miserable.


You aren't crazy, just read the posts here - a lot of folks want more affection, more involvement, more sex. True, there are those who want sex w/o affection - see the NSA ads on craigslist - but if we marry a starting point is sex and affection, when it vanishes or diminishes because of our partners we go through what you are living with. I think it takes several years of trying to re-establish the connection before we give up on our marriage separate and divorce.

This is not pleasant, not easy, you may find yourself wanting to crawl under your desk or crying in your car - I've done both - hang in, life will get worse and eventually better.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

Better because it fixes itself or better because I choose to leave?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

YES


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You need to tell her the truth - that you cannot stay married in a loveless marriage and you will eventually leave - unless she starts going to therapy and learns to tear down the self-protection walls she has built up around herself.

Give yourself - and her - a time limit, say 3 months. If she makes no moves in that time, move out.

The longer you stay married, the less incentive she will have to give you ANY SF.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

My husband also comes from a family that was not very affectionate and are not touchy-feely.

I come from a family that is just the opposite - openly affectionate to each other.

This has caused issues off/on during our marriage, but I have learned to adapt and fortunately, my husband has also.

While I would LOVE to hold hands everytime we go somewhere, love to get hugs all the time for no reason, love for him to throw his arm around me in public - this is just NOT who he is.

So we've come to an understanding.

I don't try to FORCE affection on him and he tries to GIVE ME enough affection so that I'm not starving for it.

This helps me to get part of my need fulfilled and helps him not feel so uncomfortable about it.

One thing I've learned, is someone who is not used to being physically affectionate, is actually "uncomfortable" with the affection. It doesn't feel good to them like it does the person yearning for it.

Very-very difficult to change.  I doubt she can actually change who she is when it comes to affection, but she can adapt and give you a little more affection without it being uncomfortable for her.

Why not sit down and say hey - I know you're uncomfortable with all the touchy-feely stuff - but I need it to feel like you love me. How about we compromise? Can I have 3 hugs per week, can you hold my hand when we go out and eat next Friday, etc.

I know this sounds silly, but the more she does it, the more it might feel comfortable for her - it worked with my husband.

Anything worth a try, right?

As far as sex - I'm in the same boat - so I have no advice there - sorry!


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

youngstown said:


> Better because it fixes itself or better because I choose to leave?


The lack of affection will not fix itself, you and your W will have to work on that issue if you choose to, and a good marriage counselor might be able to help. So much would depend on the three of you that I can't even begin to make a guess.

OTH if you leave, deal with your loss, and begin again you will probably find that living with yourself is more enjoyable than having your expectations dashed daily. Eventually you might find a woman who is affectionate and enjoys both physical and emotional intimacy.

My stbx still refuses to accept how much she distanced herself from our marriage, how much she failed to fulfill promises, thinks that because I didn't yell and scream frequently I didn't mind. 

A national chain - Pier 1? - had a sign in one of its stores that read "You broke it, you own it". That is how I feel and I suggest you tell your wife how much you are hurting, how you feel rejected, and how you will move on if she refuses to work on the issues that concern you.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

turnera said:


> You need to tell her the truth - that you cannot stay married in a loveless marriage and you will eventually leave - unless she starts going to therapy and learns to tear down the self-protection walls she has built up around herself.
> 
> Give yourself - and her - a time limit, say 3 months. If she makes no moves in that time, move out.
> 
> The longer you stay married, the less incentive she will have to give you ANY SF.


IN what way do you think she has built up self protection walls re: sex and affection. Just curious. Thank you !!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, first, she comes from a dysfunctional family. You didn't say exactly what kind of dysfunction but, generally speaking, living in that environment can manifest itself in many ways in her marriage. There's a good book called Healing The Shame That Binds You, which talks about how we internalize our dysfunctional childhood into self-destructive or else self-protective actions in adulthood. She doesn't trust you not to hurt her like everyone else, so she closes off her 'true' self and only shows you what she wants. That she refuses counseling says a lot - she can't let anyone see the real her, because they would hate her (in her mind). 

As for how it translates into SF/affection...isn't that why you're here? She withholds it for whatever her logic tells her is a valid reason. I couldn't say. It could be fear of you rejecting her, fear of you making her feel bad, fear of not being 'good enough,' fear of being controlled and thus she controls what she has control over (SF/affection)...it could be any of a million things. Only therapy can get into that.

You two have baggage from being together. Somewhere along the way she felt safer by not exposing herself to you. The only way you can ever find out what/why/how is to talk to her and, hopefully, to get her to talk to a therapist.

Either that, or she just doesn't like you any more; you aren't what she thought she was getting and, thus, doesn't feel like giving you any SF/affection.


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## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

Why don't you try some "systematic desensitisation"? It seems to have worked for us. I don't really like sex but this made it a bit easier for me. My husband started initiating on the same day each week (Sunday it was) and so we had sex that day. Then after a while when I wasn't so uncomfortable, and I had gotten used to doing it regularly on that day, then he added in Wednesday. So now its two days a week, and I am now used to having it on two days in the same week, and it's not so bad for me as it was before. If you have success with the two days you could try kicking it up a notch to three days. Depends on how your wife goes with it. Don't tell her you are going to do this - just do it.

Ofcourse if you think she'll be gagging for it after this you are mistaken big time! But the point is, to do it that often you gotta work your way up to it. Especially if you aren't a touchy feely person like me. Its a bit like the systematic desensitisation that they do for phobias, just with a different focus. And then when she is used to doing it 2/3 times a week, then maybe she might be able to enjoy it. That would be the next step I think. Get used to it (and less uncomfortable with it) - then to learn to ENJOY it. 

Sounds like a lot of effort but hey, the end may justify the means as they say.


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## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

Oh and I forgot to mention, if its a "known thing" that sex occurs on whatever day it is, then its not like you have to ask her for it. She'll know that today is sex day so you won't have that horrible feeling you get when you ask for sex and get turned down. Make it a regular thing: after dinner, we go to the bedroom. It kind of becomes a habit on those particular days after a while.


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

One thing I know, is I am the low sex drive partner... it is just the way I am but I know my hubby takes it personally.

There are a few things that make me less interested:

1- my hubby acting (and saying) that because I don't have the same high desire for sex, there is something WRONG with me. That is insulting and hurtful. 
2- only touching me and being affectionate with me when he wants sex, and no other times
3- trying to get me to have sex at ridiculous times- like 5 am when I am trying to take my daughter to the ice rink before school
4- pressuring me to love it, have an O, etc. I used to happily go along to meet his needs, but that was apparently not enough.

Just a perspective from the low drive person


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

youngstown said:


> Do you really truly believe that since she refuses to seek help, that she doesn't care? Because I think exactly this, but never have said it. I understand medication might be causing it, or just a low sex drive. But if it is an issue I keep mentioning, and the importance to me and our relationship, would you not make the effort to seek counselling/doctors opinion? If I flip this around, and I am the one not interested. Well, I cannot fathom not seeking some guidance from a 3rd party, if my significant other has stated how big of an issue it is.



But that implies there is something WRONG with a low sex drive, sometimes it is just how a person is...how would you feel if she wanted you to go to counseling or a doctor to figure out why you have such a high sex drive? Making someone feel defective is never going to get you anywhere.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

From the perspective of the rest of us, a low drive person is like being confronted with someone who's not that into breathing or eating. I guess it could be normal but it doesn't feel normal.


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> From the perspective of the rest of us, a low drive person is like being confronted with someone who's not that into breathing or eating. I guess it could be normal but it doesn't feel normal.



Well it doesn't feel normal to me that someone has such intense urges that they have to track me down every single day--- and gets pissy if even one day goes by without sex. But I wouldn't tell my husband to go see a doctor about it, because that implies he is defective. It is just different...and sympathy and understanding will get you much farther than complaining, nagging and suggesting your wife is not 'normal' and that she needs to be seen by someone.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

To each other you each appear odd. My wife loves cooked cabbage. I on the other hand am not a damn peasant. 

I don't if there's anything 'wrong' with you or not. Likewise I don't know jack about your husband's sexual behavior either. Somewhere in there you have to find a balance where he's not dying of thirst and you're not drowning in it. 

And of course you realize that all of this is more nuanced than sex, yes? It's about how you each FEEL about each other making conflicting demands on each other about it. 

He: If you loved me you'd **** me every day. 
She:If you loved me you'd **** me once a month.

Well neither of those statements is correct or incorrect.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

lisa3girls said:


> *Well it doesn't feel normal to me that someone has such intense urges that they have to track me down every single day--- and gets pissy if even one day goes by without sex*. But I wouldn't tell my husband to go see a doctor about it, because that implies he is defective. It is just different...and sympathy and understanding will get you much farther than complaining, nagging and suggesting your wife is not 'normal' and that she needs to be seen by someone.


Exactly.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

Well I think asking for some work towards affection is not a big request.

As for sex, I don;t wake her up at 5am. I am very respectful of her low sex drive. Twice a week would be great. It just never happens.

I think sex and affection are part of a relationship. Hey counselling is fine for high or low sex drive. But somehow this has to be fixed.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

So I laid it out tonight again in more dire terms that I really think we are out of options and need to have a third party help us. My wife said she is not comfortable talking to a counsellor about our relationship. 

I respect that. But her response to well what do we do is "keep working at it". We have been for years. It has got us nowhere.

So disappointed she won't get over her fear of talking to a counsellor about our relationship. She sees one for her depression, but apparently talking to one about us doesnt work for her.

So I dont know where this leads us...we have tried forever to make things better but all I have still is a roommate. And I dont want a roommate.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*speaking in code*

Young,
My experience with these situations is very consistent. The person who refuses counseling is fully aware that they are behaving in an unfair manner. Your W has no intention of fixing anything. She is perfectly fine with the status quo. 

So either find a way to be happy with no sex, or "risk the marriage to save the marriage". Read the post below and then steadily drop the temperature in your marriage while remaining upbeat, fun to be around and polite. She will either step up or you will know that she never will. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html






youngstown said:


> So I laid it out tonight again in more dire terms that I really think we are out of options and need to have a third party help us. My wife said she is not comfortable talking to a counsellor about our relationship.
> 
> I respect that. But her response to well what do we do is "keep working at it". We have been for years. It has got us nowhere.
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You 'laid it out' but did you tell her you won't stay married?

THAT is what she needs to hear.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

No I did not state anything about the marriage ending. So an ultimatum is what is needed?

She is off work due to depression currently so trying to balance this and where my head is at. I know its a bad time to bring this up, but I cannot continue like this.


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## CrystalPalace (Apr 7, 2011)

If she won't seek help with you maybe you should seek help yourself? Sex might not be the issue as much as your need for intimacy and affection--which aren't being met. Dealing with those needs is complicated because you have to face your fear and insecurity. Are your needs justified/reasonable?

Even without sex, you need to feel loved and signs of affection from her day in and day out. If you're not getting that there might be an emotional distance that you both need to work on. You can't change her, only yourself. Work on that because that's the best shot you've got towards positive change.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IDK. Are you going to stay married to someone who will not ML to you?

I sure hope not. 

That is not a marriage.

She needs to understand that.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

That is what I am wavering on. Is this just my perspective, and I need to change it. Or should our relationship be so much more, and therefore I think leaving is only option as I have run the gauntlet on all solutions.

Also, is it terrible to ask my wife to leave? She has family in our town, and I do not. I could also afford to stay in our current home. Just wondering how bad it is to ask her to leave, instead of me leaving.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

youngstown said:


> That is what I am wavering on. Is this just my perspective, and I need to change it. Or should our relationship be so much more, and therefore I think leaving is only option as I have run the gauntlet on all solutions.
> 
> Also, is it terrible to ask my wife to leave? She has family in our town, and I do not. I could also afford to stay in our current home. Just wondering how bad it is to ask her to leave, instead of me leaving.


Youngstown,

You sound the way I did last summer, knowing the marriage is over but hoping your w would take positive action enabling you to stay together. I went through half a dozen cycles before I realized it was hopeless.

If you need a place to live and can afford the house there is nothing terrible about buying your wife's share of the house.

Treat it as a business decision with three possible outcomes -
1. you buy your wife's share.
2. your wife buys your share.
3. the house is sold and proceeds shared.

In any of these cases household possessions will have to be split.

I suggest you find a divorce mediator in the near future, mediation is usually easier on both parties and a lot less expensive. Based on my failure to convince w to go for mediation I suggest you locate a few and let your w decide who to work with.

As to how bad asking her to leave is, how bad is witholding love, affection, and sex? 

Behind your question I read an assumption she would move in with family and think that is a poor assumption, she may want to take an apartment, or rent or buy a house.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

Sorry, yes I realize my wife may want to move out to an apt.

I dont think she would buy me out, but that is a good way to look at I guess. I certainly could try to setup something in order to pay her back for her share of equity.

So I guess all the extra income I brought into the relationship over 8 years counts for nothing then? Unless we agree together it does, but assume courts don't count that. Kind of sad.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You can always get together again later, if she sees what she's throwing away.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

youngstown said:


> Sorry, yes I realize my wife may want to move out to an apt.
> 
> I dont think she would buy me out, but that is a good way to look at I guess. I certainly could try to setup something in order to pay her back for her share of equity.
> 
> So I guess all the extra income I brought into the relationship over 8 years counts for nothing then? Unless we agree together it does, but assume courts don't count that. Kind of sad.


In my home state a lot depends on her age, her job history and the length of your marriage. This varies from state to state, in some states the assets you bring into the marriage are yours after the divorce. Check with an attorney before crying in your beer.

W/o kids you might end up loosing a lot less than you think.

For others reading this the really big hit from being married is if you need Medicaid - your spouse could have to spend down almost every penny if you have to go into a nursing home.


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## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

CrystalPalace said:


> If she won't seek help with you maybe you should seek help yourself? Sex might not be the issue as much as your need for intimacy and affection--which aren't being met. Dealing with those needs is complicated because you have to face your fear and insecurity. Are your needs justified/reasonable?
> 
> Even without sex, you need to feel loved and signs of affection from her day in and day out. If you're not getting that there might be an emotional distance that you both need to work on. You can't change her, only yourself. Work on that because that's the best shot you've got towards positive change.


Youngstown,

I agree with this sentiment whole heartedly... you need to do all you can to take care of yourself emotionally and psychologically and physically.

My situation right now is very similar to yours; my wife has withdrawn in our relationship and we have very little communication, sex, intimacy, affection, and so on. You are NOT off base in wanting those things from your wife or having the feelings you do because of how she is handling her side of your relationship with her.

For you, I'd say it is fortunate that you don't have kids. I have a 10 year old son and a 2 year old daughter with my wife and I will not give up on them. Divorcing would be devastating to them and I won't turn my back on them. 

We've been married 14 years and I've never been unfaithful to any woman I've ever been involved with. But now I find myself wanting to have an affair, not because of the sex, but because I want to have a connection, an intimacy with someone who loves me and appreciates me for who I am and not what I do. I've read a couple of books by a marriage researcher John Gottman and he says that affairs don't break marriages up; they are a sign the marriage is already about to fail from other causes.

Regardless, I am doing all I can to take care of myself in as many ways as I possibly can. I joined a local gym and go to exercise and work out three or four days a week, I'm watching what I eat, counting my calories and staying on budget, and I've lost 6 lbs in the last 6 weeks. I have moved all my clothes and belongings into the spare room in our house I had been using as an office and sleep there now and have it as my own space. That by itself has been such a relief because I am no longer forced to lay next to a woman who as for all intents and purposes rejected me in nearly every aspect of our relationship except for the income I bring in and the work I do for our household and caring for our children. I don't have to endure the torture of not being able to touch and hold and caress and feel aroused by the woman I am still very much in love with, despite the way she treats me now. I have been spending more time with my kids apart from my wife, focusing on being part of their lives despite my situation with my wife, and letting them know that I love them and will be there for them and help them and care for them when the need me.

So in short, do everything you can to take care of yourself in every way you can. I am hoping my wife will see what I am doing and change how she relates to me, and hopefully yours will too. Keep in mind too, that you don't need to be selfish, inconsiderate, or disrespectful of her to take care of yourself... If she sees you taking care of yourself and not being reliant on her, sees you pulling away from her, hopefully she'll realize that she may very well lose you, and she may start to compromise and change and work with you to rebuild your relationship. If not, you will already be in a place of strength and confidence to deal with the trials and tribulations that will come if you do divorce. And, if you've been compassionate, considerate, and respectful of her while you're taking care of yourself and putting yourself in a better place emotionally and mentally, you'll be able to feel good about yourself as a person that you've done that for her, even if she doesn't change and you decide you have to divorce her.

Good luck, and I hope this helps.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

Very good points Heinz. But I still think there has to be some movement on the other spouse's part. 

I think your idea that you are going to make all the changes and see what happens, well it just doesn't cut it with me. I think you will still end up at the same point, but have wasted, somewhat, more time trying to fix a broken dead relationship.

I think that is where mine is too. You can only put in so much effort. But if the bond is gone, I think it is difficult to rekindle.

I have tried to make suggestions, and tried very hard to make things work. But there comes a time that you say enough is enough. A relationship is two ways.


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## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

youngstown said:


> Very good points Heinz. But I still think there has to be some movement on the other spouse's part.
> 
> I think your idea that you are going to make all the changes and see what happens, well it just doesn't cut it with me. I think you will still end up at the same point, but have wasted, somewhat, more time trying to fix a broken dead relationship.
> 
> ...


Where you choose to draw that line is indeed, up to you. That doesn't change the fact that doing things to take care of yourself is probably one of, if not *the*, best thing to do for yourself. I don't think that that is time wasted. And, if you do make positive changes for yourself in your own life, and she does not respond, then you do truly have your answer. Again, either way, you'll be in a better place to either rebuild your marriage or to move on.


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## rotor (Aug 28, 2010)

Youngstown,

I went through the exact same thing except I have been married for 24 years. The last dry spell was over 5 years. I tried everything imaginable over the years with no results.

Eventually I came to realize why. In short it was because I was dealing with a very childish, self absorbed, selfish person with a complete lack of empathy for others hidden under that mask of sweetness and that I already 'was' meeting her "needs" which is why things never changed. It's the old story of "If it doesn’t directly affect me it doesn’t really matter."

Anyway, Long story short, wifey found the miracle cure the second I told her I wanted either an open relationship where she could keep doing or not doing whatever she wanted and I could get my needs met or a separation so that I could move on.

Good Luck,

rotor


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Exactly what I've been saying to do - tell her NOW that you will walk if something doesn't change. Don't just keep silent and then file. Give her that one option first; THEN you know you did all you can, because then she will have the information she needs to make an informed decision.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

rotor said:


> Youngstown,
> 
> I went through the exact same thing except I have been married for 24 years. The last dry spell was over 5 years. I tried everything imaginable over the years with no results.
> 
> ...


rotor -

my stbxw (26 years together) started missing me once I was gone, but as my big sister pointed out she certainly didn't seem to want to spend any time with me when I was living with her.

You wrote
_In short it was because I was dealing with a very childish, self absorbed, selfish person with a complete lack of empathy for others hidden under that mask of sweetness _

I could use these words to describe mine, though I would explicitly add narcissistic.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Here's a good description of such a woman. I worked with a pretty woman in her mid-20s once who told me that she helped her husband with the yardwork. I asked what she did, and she said that every week when he went out to mow and do yardwork, she brought her folding lounge chair out and sat on the driveway with a drink and a magazine. 

To keep him company, you know.

Sadly, she was dead serious.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

The thing that always confuses me is that all the divorced people I know still consume their days being angry at their exes. First off I don't want to hear about it. Second, who ****ing cares? You dumped THEM!


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## rotor (Aug 28, 2010)

ThinkTooMuch said:


> rotor -
> 
> my stbxw (26 years together) started missing me once I was gone, but as my big sister pointed out she certainly didn't seem to want to spend any time with me when I was living with her.
> 
> ...


That doesn’t surprise me a bit that she missed you after the fact. It's funny how that works.

Ironically I was consciously describing narcissistic traits but was avoiding the word since it is too often confused with full blown NPD

But I’ll take it a step further and go far enough to say that IMHO narcissism is the root issue at hand in a lot of these cases. That's why "the talk" never works and just resets the clock. Why would it? You are dealing with someone who is living in their own private Idaho full of their own delusions and rationalizations so how could you ever expect to be heard? That's why you have to reduce things down to something they can understand which is actions and consequences.

Regards,

Rotor


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## Kilgore Salmon (Apr 12, 2011)

rotor said:


> That's why you have to reduce things down to something they can understand which is actions and consequences


Good advice.

Here's a funny little site I found while looking for answers over a year ago now - borderline.

13 Signs Your Wife or Girlfriend is a Borderline or a Narcissist « A Shrink for Men

It didn't quite fit my situation but maybe it maters here.


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## youngstown (Apr 16, 2010)

I broached the issues this wknd with a more dire consequence "approach".

I just have a problem kind of making an ultimatum. But when I did give the sense that it was fix things or we're done, her back certainly got up 50 ft high. 

Surprisingly after I assured her that was not the case, it was not an ultimatum, she seemed like a scared little girl and asked me if I was going to leave.

So jekkyl and hyde reactions. It was a bit of a look into how things might go should I take it to the end. Well maybe not! Either she will be in a fighting mood or try to stop me from leaving. Oh well...back to the fun.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I am so far past threats and ultimatums. They don't work. I wonder if they really should have to work. I mean threatening your spouse if she doesn't screw you ~~ how messed up is that?


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## quercus.robur (Aug 1, 2010)

youngstown said:


> Would you make an effort for sex more than once a week?


I would be happy with once a week ... (did not have any in last 2 years:-(


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## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

youngstown said:


> Surprisingly after I assured her that was not the case, it was not an ultimatum, she seemed like a scared little girl and asked me if I was going to leave.
> 
> So jekkyl and hyde reactions. It was a bit of a look into how things might go should I take it to the end. Well maybe not! Either she will be in a fighting mood or try to stop me from leaving. Oh well...back to the fun.


Be careful and go slowly... don't let your guard down, don't cave when she gives you the 'scared little girl' act... I hate to be pessimistic, but it may be just a way of getting you to back down.

Stick to your guns and don't give in. At the same time, don't be selfish and inconsiderate. Yes, it's a fine line to walk and sometimes it's also a really hard line to see, which makes it even more difficult. But the most important thing is that no matter what, you can't back down until you start to see some substantive and enduring change in her behavior in your relationship.

Like I said before, you can help yourself out with that by doing the best you can to take care of yourself... No matter what may ultimately happen, you'll be putting yourself in a better place for any improvements in your relationship with her, and in a better place for yourself if you do end up divorcing and having to move on with your life.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She has zero interest in fixing this. Just in wearing you down so you give up trying to get her to make an effort. 

Notice you got a reaction that was all about her. Not once did she ask "what do I need to do to make YOU HAPPY". It was ALL ABOUT HER. That isn't going to change until she sees you packing. Is that the basis you want for getting temporary decent treatment? 




youngstown said:


> I broached the issues this wknd with a more dire consequence "approach".
> 
> I just have a problem kind of making an ultimatum. But when I did give the sense that it was fix things or we're done, her back certainly got up 50 ft high.
> 
> ...


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## backhand (Apr 16, 2011)

based on my experience and detailed discussions with others in similar circumstances, you have the best approach outlined below. nothing changes in these situations without action. most respond as described below. those that don't are beyond repair. 



rotor said:


> Youngstown,
> 
> I went through the exact same thing except I have been married for 24 years. The last dry spell was over 5 years. I tried everything imaginable over the years with no results.
> 
> ...


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## ladyybyrd (Jan 4, 2011)

Lack of Affection/Sex Enough to Derail a Marriage? YES YES and YES!

Once a week is not bad in the least. I could only wish i were getting it once a week! now once a month is another story. 

As people get older their priorities change. My husbands top priority 6 years ago was sex @ #1 on his to do list. Now it not on the top 10 or even 20 to do list. for me sex/affection has always been in the top 5 with sex being #1. 

Talking does very little to help the situation, in my experience anyway. The time inbetween seems to get longer and longer every time i bring it up. It will not get any better you will have to learn to compromise (I really hate that word.) or leave.

I have invested almost 14 years in my marriage. SO i know what you mean. It is hard to leave after you have put yourself in a relationship for so long.

I agree with MEM:
Notice you got a reaction that was all about her. Not once did she ask "what do I need to do to make YOU HAPPY". It was ALL ABOUT HER. That isn't going to change until she sees you packing. Is that the basis you want for getting temporary decent treatment? 


My h does this to me too it is always all about him!!


I do wish you the best of luck!


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## Alphan (Mar 23, 2011)

youngstown said:


> I have been married 8 years. I come from a very affectionate family upbringing, and have a high sex drive.
> 
> My wife comes from a dysfunctional upbringing and is not very affectionate. We have talked about this as a problem for me over the years. Things have never really changed, and it is usually me instigating anything in this department.
> 
> ...


_It's true that sex is an important thing in a relationship. I like describing it as a seal of mutual ownership. That's why one partner feels jealous if upon suspecting they are being cheated on. 
Having said this, I believe all is not lost in your relationship. Strong relationships are formed by each partner stepping from their hard line positions to help each other overcome some of the common setbacks that stand against the bliss.
Sex is not a factor for a happy relationship. It is a result of it. It is not just a right to claim. It is a free will give and take act, arising from an existing friendship. Sex without friendship is a selfish, one sided act that does not meet its purpose. Try to work out some ways to improve confidence and be good friends with her. Strain or stress is another thing that can badly affect sex. Make sure she is not being overworked, or over concerned about certain issues in life. I hope she is not nearing menopause. This is another moment that women develop cold feet for sex. One of the reason behind this being the gradual narrowing of the sexual organ that may result into having painful sex. Whatever the case, I believe you will get out of it. Quitting is not the solution here. By quitting, you might be jumping from the frying pan to the fire._


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alphan,
The issue here isn't sex at all. It is a partner who is selfish and indifferent to their spouses needs. I predict the marriage would last less than 6 months if he stopped meeting her number one need. 




Alphan said:


> _It's true that sex is an important thing in a relationship. I like describing it as a seal of mutual ownership. That's why one partner feels jealous if upon suspecting they are being cheated on.
> Having said this, I believe all is not lost in your relationship. Strong relationships are formed by each partner stepping from their hard line positions to help each other overcome some of the common setbacks that stand against the bliss.
> Sex is not a factor for a happy relationship. It is a result of it. It is not just a right to claim. It is a free will give and take act, arising from an existing friendship. Sex without friendship is a selfish, one sided act that does not meet its purpose. Try to work out some ways to improve confidence and be good friends with her. Strain or stress is another thing that can badly affect sex. Make sure she is not being overworked, or over concerned about certain issues in life. I hope she is not nearing menopause. This is another moment that women develop cold feet for sex. One of the reason behind this being the gradual narrowing of the sexual organ that may result into having painful sex. Whatever the case, I believe you will get out of it. Quitting is not the solution here. By quitting, you might be jumping from the frying pan to the fire._


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And it might be worth him pointing out that if she doesn't start meeting his need for sex, he will then stop meeting HER need.


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