# The Pbar & Grill...



## Pbartender

I was just realizing I've started a lot of threads scattered about... It's time to consolidate them.

This'll be my "journal". My centralized location for grousing about the things STBXW does, for examining my own faults and mistakes, for figuring out what I need to do to keep moving forward and improving myself, and to get the support to see those improvements through.

So... What your poison?

*Previously, on Pbar's Marriage...*

_"Let me 'splain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up."_ - Inigo Montoya

Both of us had almost, but not quite, resolved issues from childhood...

*STBXW:* Father left before she was born. Neglectful mother. Mother had many different abusive, alcoholic, drug-using boyfriends. She was parentified at a young age. She was promiscuous from a young age. She has a difficulty taking responsibility for her mistakes. She has a tendency to run and hide from big problems. She can be very confrontational. She shows tendencies toward NPD.

*Me:* Parents stuck together through a bad marriage. Father was distant. Father had tendency toward alcoholism. Father had anger issues. Mother has Borderline tendencies. I had mild, undiagnosed (at that time) ADHD. I was "late bloomer" who didn't get a chance to date much before I met my wife. I have tendencies toward "nice guy syndrome". I have tendencies toward codependency.


We met in college.
Married just after we graduated.
Had our two kids early.
Things were going pretty good.
Wife got bored, got a job, started having emotional affairs (though I didn't realize then what they were).
I voiced concern, she justified them in various ways, I trusted her and backed down.
Things slowly went from pretty good to just okay. She continued to have emotional affairs.
I voiced concern again. She shifted blame to me. I accepted it and backed down again, attempting to make amends.
I suggested marriage counseling. She refused.
Things slowly went to just okay to not so great. By this time, both of us had let our old friends drift away, and had given up on most of our favorite hobbies.
More of the same.
I suggested marriage counseling again. She refused again.
I was getting moody and mildly depressed from being unable to "fix" the seemingly endless problems that I felt were all my fault.

In the last two years...


She admitted to kissing a coworker at a party while she was drunk. She assured me it only happened because she was drunk, nothing else happened, it never happened before, and it would never happen again. I trusted her, forgave her and moved on. She got mad at me, because I didn't throw a fit about it.
I caught her sexting with a different coworker who was engaged to his girlfriend. She tried to hide it, and lied about it when I confronted her about it. She tried to justify it and minimize it, and then tried to blame shift again. In the end backed down again, forgave her and moved on.
She started pulling away... Withholding affection, publicly insulting me, ignoring me, etc...
I started falling into full-on Nice Guy fix-it mode... Clinging, bargaining, forgiving, accepting blame, etc...
I suggested marriage counseling again. She refused again.
The emotional affairs continued... She starting stalking one of my best friends.
Finally, I had something of an emotional break-down. She gave me the ILYBINILWY speech, and started talking about divorce.
She moved into the spare bedroom in the basement, ostensibly so that we could salvage our friendship, if not our marriage.

Since the separation...


Things started out okay. The pressure was off, and our friendship did see a resurgence.
She's spent most the time going out and partying, MLC style.
She's isolated herself from all her family and old friends. She only socializes with friends she works with, and who "support" her.
She pushed me to "let go" and "move on" and such, and seemed eager to get divorced... "Let's get it done ASAP," and "I'm not willing to wait," and "We can file as soon as this Friday!"
She expressed a desire for an amicable no-fault divorce with as little lawyer involvement as possible. I agreed.
We talked things over and came to general agreement on some pretty fair terms.
However, she did nothing to actually make it happen, did no homework or research on the process, and made no other preparations for splitting up.
I got tired of waiting. I warned her first and then contacted a lawyer to get advice. He offered to draw up our paperwork and file it for us for a modest flat fee. I ran the idea past her, and she agreed.
I had a rough draft written up, and handed it to her to look over. She freaked out and got mad. Started talking about fighting for everything.
She took the papers to a lawyer, but has been uncommunicative to both him and me about it all... Delaying and dragging it out.
She chased after the friend of mine she had been stalking. he turned her down.
She instead hooked up with a guy she works with... New boyfriend!
I got tired of waiting again, and filed the Petition for Divorce on Valentine's Day.

In the meantime...


I've been going to counseling.
I've been rebuilding my relationships with my kids and making sure their well taken care of.
I've been getting back into some old hobbies and picking up new ones.
I've been reconnecting with old friends and meeting new ones.
I've been getting back into shape and losing some weight.
I've been doing my homework to make sure I understand exactly what's going on with the divorce and what my options are.

So that's where I am now.

Oof. Phew! Aren't you glad I gave you the short version? 

More later...


Pb.


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## toonaive

Sounds like we are going through the same things at the same time. Im very glad my sons are with me. Hope your children are living with you. There is light at the end of the long dark tunnel!!


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## Conrad

You're really surprised she isn't following-through on divorce?

What has she ever followed-through on?



Pbartender said:


> I was just realizing I've started a lot of threads scattered about... It's time to consolidate them.
> 
> This'll be my "journal". My centralized location for grousing about the things STBXW does, for examining my own faults and mistakes, for figuring out what I need to do to keep moving forward and improving myself, and to get the support to see those improvements through.
> 
> So... What your poison?
> 
> *Previously, on Pbar's Marriage...*
> 
> _"Let me 'splain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up."_ - Inigo Montoya
> 
> Both of us had almost, but not quite, resolved issues from childhood...
> 
> *STBXW:* Father left before she was born. Neglectful mother. Mother had many different abusive, alcoholic, drug-using boyfriends. She was parentified at a young age. She was promiscuous from a young age. She has a difficulty taking responsibility for her mistakes. She has a tendency to run and hide from big problems. She can be very confrontational.
> 
> *Me:* Parents stuck together through a bad marriage. Father was distant. Father had tendency toward alcoholism. Father had anger issues. Mother has Borderline/Narcissistic tendencies. I had mild, undiagnosed (at that time) ADHD. I was "late bloomer" who didn't get a chance to date much before I met my wife. I have tendencies toward "nice guy syndrome". I have tendencies toward codependency.
> 
> 
> We met in college.
> Married just after we graduated.
> Had our two kids early.
> Things were going pretty good.
> Wife got bored, got a job, started having emotional affairs (though I didn't realize then what they were).
> I voiced concern, she justified them in various ways, I trusted her and backed down.
> Things slowly went from pretty good to just okay. She continued to have emotional affairs.
> I voiced concern again. She shifted blame to me. I accepted it and backed down again, attempting to make amends.
> I suggested marriage counseling. She refused.
> Things slowly went to just okay to not so great. By this time, both of us had let our old friends drift away, and had given up on most of our favorite hobbies.
> More of the same.
> I suggested marriage counseling again. She refused again.
> I was getting moody and mildly depressed from being unable to "fix" the seemingly endless problems that I felt were all my fault.
> 
> In the last two years...
> 
> 
> She admitted to kissing a coworker at a party while she was drunk. She assured me it only happened because she was drunk, nothing else happened, it never happened before, and it would never happen again. I trusted her, forgave her and moved on. She got mad at me, because I didn't throw a fit about it.
> I caught her sexting with a different coworker who was engaged to his girlfriend. She tried to hide it, and lied about it when I confronted her about it. She tried to justify it and minimize it, and then tried to blame shift again. In the end backed down again, forgave her and moved on.
> She started pulling away... Withholding affection, publicly insulting me, ignoring me, etc...
> I started falling into full-on Nice Guy fix-it mode... Clinging, bargaining, forgiving, accepting blame, etc...
> I suggested marriage counseling again. She refused again.
> The emotional affairs continued... She starting stalking one of my best friends.
> Finally, I had something of an emotional break-down. She gave me the ILYBINILWY speech, and started talking about divorce.
> She moved into the spare bedroom in the basement, ostensibly so that we could salvage our friendship, if not our marriage.
> 
> Since the separation...
> 
> 
> Things started out okay. The pressure was off, and our friendship did see a resurgence.
> She's spent most the time going out and partying, MLC style.
> She's isolated herself from all her family and old friends. She only socializes with friends she works with, and who "support" her.
> She pushed me to "let go" and "move on" and such, and seemed eager to get divorced... "Let's get it done ASAP," and "I'm not willing to wait," and "We can file as soon as this Friday!"
> She expressed a desire for an amicable no-fault divorce with as little lawyer involvement as possible. I agreed.
> We talked things over and came to general agreement on some pretty fair terms.
> However, she did nothing to actually make it happen, did no homework or research on the process, and made no other preparations for splitting up.
> I got tired of waiting. I warned her first and then contacted a lawyer to get advice. He offered to draw up our paperwork and file it for us for a modest flat fee. I ran the idea past her, and she agreed.
> I had a rough draft written up, and handed it to her to look over. She freaked out and got mad. Started talking about fighting for everything.
> She took the papers to a lawyer, but has been uncommunicative to both him and me about it all... Delaying and dragging it out.
> She chased after the friend of mine she had been stalking. he turned her down.
> She instead hooked up with a guy she works with... New boyfriend!
> I got tired of waiting again, and filed the Petition for Divorce on Valentine's Day.
> 
> In the meantime...
> 
> 
> I've been going to counseling.
> I've been rebuilding my relationships with my kids and making sure their well taken care of.
> I've been getting back into some old hobbies and picking up new ones.
> I've been reconnecting with old friends and meeting new ones.
> I've been getting back into shape and losing some weight.
> I've been doing my homework to make sure I understand exactly what's going on with the divorce and what my options are.
> 
> So that's where I am now.
> 
> Oof. Phew! Aren't you glad I gave you the short version?
> 
> More later...
> 
> 
> Pb.


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## Pbartender

toonaive said:


> Sounds like we are going through the same things at the same time. Im very glad my sons are with me. Hope your children are living with you. There is light at the end of the long dark tunnel!!


They are living with me... but so is she. And it kind of sucks. If she had actually left and gotten her own place, I think I'd be doing okay.

I can't get her to leave... the house is in both our names, so I can't legally force her to.

She refuses to pay any "rent" to help with the bills... She buys groceries and pays for the family cell phone bill, and somehow thinks that's enough to cover her half of the mortgage and utilities. It's nowhere close.

There's no way to keep our new private lives private from each other.

We keep bumping into each other when it comes to parenting the kids.

We've got no schedule for who's looking after the kids, and who gets time off to go out.

The only solution I can see at the moment, is to get the divorce done so she'll have to leave. Of course, she's dragging it out, and that's exactly why.



Conrad said:


> You're really surprised she isn't following-through on divorce?


Not anymore, I'm not.



Conrad said:


> What has she ever followed-through on?


Come to think about it? Not much... and nothing that was ever very important.

She did manage to train up for and complete that triathlon we signed up for last summer. But in all honesty, the only reason she did it was because my friend (the one she was stalking) was doing it... She was just trying to show off for him and get his attention.


Pb.


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## Conrad

So, basically, you're now subsidizing her partying - and babysitting while she does it.


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## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> So, basically, you're now subsidizing her partying - and babysitting while she does it.


Yup. I know. I got suckered into it while I was still on my emotional roller coaster and fully engaged in "nice guy" mode. It's a left over agreement from before we got separated that never got changed. And it sucks that there's not a whole lot I can do about it in the short term, without shooting myself in the foot.

A month or two after we "separated", she got a big promotion and a big raise... She makes practically as much as I do now, but whenever I try to bring up a fairer budget arrangement, she ignores me and walks away.

I separated our finances as far as I could... she's responsible paying for her own insurance, student loan and credit cards, now ...but for the sake of the kids I can't just stop paying the mortgage and the utilities just to spite her.


Pb.


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## Pbartender

So, in my county, when you divorce and you have kids, you are required to attend a two week seminar on parenting and divorce. Last night I was on my way home from the second half of the class, when I look over and see STBXW's car in the next lane. As I'm slowly passing her by, I notice posOM sitting in the passeneger seat. He was all slumped down in his seat like a surly teen, and she didn't exactly look like she was having fun, either... Chauffering him back and forth to work from his parent's house, again. I honked, and was going to give them one a big smile and a wave, but she was so intent on driving, she didn't notice my horn.

Tonight, she came home from work while I was cooking dinner. For the first time in a long time, we has a sit down dinner with all four of us -- me, her, D13 and S14. She very carefully avoiding conversing directly to me, and she couldn't even look at me... At best, she'd steal glance at me, and quickly look away when I looked back.

Didn't feel like she was angry... guilty maybe? I don't know.


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pbartender

I've plans for heading out to a "Freaks, Geeks and Weirdos" meetup tonight at a Japanese market to get some delicious dinner, meet some new friends, and maybe do a little shopping for some cross-cultural kitsch.

I had mentioned it earlier in the week to STBXW and the kids, but they must have half-forgotten, because it came back up last night. She tried to guilt me a little about leaving the kids at home by themselves (something I normally would have fallen for, because it pulls on those "caretaker" strings)...

*D13:* I was thinking about going to the Fun Fair at _[Former Elementary School]_ tomorrow.
*STBXW:* I'll be working, so I won't be here to give you a ride... You'll have to talk to your father about it.
*PB:* I've already got plans to meet with some friends at Mitsuwa for dinner tomorrow, remember?
*STBXW:* But I'm working late... What about the kids?
*PB:* _[to kids]_ Are you guys okay with hanging out at home, and fending for yourselves for a few hours tomorrow night?
*D13:* Yeah, that's fine.
*S14:* Sure.
*PB:* I'll stop by home real quick after work before I head out. I could order a pizza for you guys, if you want.
*D13:* No, that's okay... We can just make the fish sticks in the oven or something.
*PB:* All right. Just be careful. I won't be too late tomorrow... They close at 8, so I should be home by 9-ish.
*STBXW:* 

No big deal, but... I did have to stop myself and think for half a second... My immediate instinct was to cancel my plans so I could stay home with the kids and take D13 to that Fun Fair fundraiser, that she's honestly too old to go to anyway.

And boy, did it seem to throw STBXW for a loop.


Pb.


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## zillard

Ha. Don't worry 'bout us. We've got it covered... without you.


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## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Ha. Don't worry 'bout us. We've got it covered... without you.


Quite.

And it was a lot of fun, too. Ate some delicious miso ramen and tasty pork buns. Met some fantastic people... It was like opening a package of Instant Friend.

When the market started closing, a bunch of us didn't feel like we were quite done for the night. I gave the kids a text about it... They were just chillaxing at home watching movies and were cool with it, so I went with my new buddies to a local tap house for a few beers and some truly excellent conversation. Got a lot of invites for more get-togethers. And I still got back home before midnight.

I highly recommend meetup.com for anyone looking to meet some new friends.

The kicker... STBXW stayed out late after work, without telling anyone, and didn't come home until almost 5 am.


Pb.


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## Freak On a Leash

Pbartender said:


> I've plans for heading out to a "Freaks, Geeks and Weirdos" meetup tonight at a Japanese market to get some delicious dinner, meet some new friends, and maybe do a little shopping for some cross-cultural kitsch.


:scratchhead: Is this based on the TV show _Freaks and Geeks_? What a great show that was! Too bad it only went 1 season. 

Meetups are great, aren't they? You did the right thing going to it. Your kids are old enough to fend for themselves and they are going to have to figure out that your needs are important to. 

Your STBX certainly is giving you a hard time. It sounds like you and the STBX need to sit down and draw up a schedule of some sort. It's too bad that she's so difficult to deal with. Sounds like you might have to "lawyer up" at some point if she doesn't settle down.

My STBX and I haven't done anything formal with regards to a visitation schedule but mostly it's because my son is a bit older and he really just needs looking after if I'm actually out all night. My son is very admantant about being able to choose the time he wants to spend with his father and be here at home so we are trying to accommodate him on that. With us, it seems to be working out at this point. My STBXH's pretty good about watching my son if I have to go out of town. He also doesn't work and have any money to do anything much. We'll probably going to have to draw up something for the summer though. It'll help that my daughter will be living home though.

It sounds like your STBXW is busier though and less inclined to accomodate you so drawing up a schedule would help both of you to plan out stuff. 

If you don't come up with a visitation schedule, budget, support, etc, then you'll probably be going contested and a judge will decide after a long, drawn out process.

I can't believe you have a TWO WEEK course on parenting and divorce? What about WORK? Fortunately here it's only one day on a Friday, which happens to be my day off.


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## Pbartender

Had to have a couple long talks with the kids this weekend...

D13 has a science project due tomorrow. She and a friend had been working on it together at her friend's house. Last Thursday, D13 texted me at 3pm (when school gets out), "I'm walking home with [Friend]" and then didn't answer when I tried to text her back. She called and left a message saying she got to her friend's house okay, that they'd be working on their project for a few hours, and that her friend's parents would bring her home. I called her friend's house, and told her it was Not Cool and gave her one hour to finish her project and get home. She did. Later, when we talked about it, she said, "I though you knew... I thought we'd agreed on it." (we had talked about Thursday after school, Saturday afternoon and Sunday afternoon, but never came to a decision) and "Sorry my cell phone died." :redcard: I made it clear that the next time this happens, I'm showing up at her friend's house to bring her home, whether she's ready or not.

I pay for school lunches at the cafeteria for both of them. It's $2.20 per day per kid for the standard lunch. They get to choose between three or four different entrees, and then get to pick out three or four sides to go with it. I pay into an account online, and the kids use their student IDs like a debit card to pay for it. But... The cafeteria also has an a la cart menu... Drinks, desserts, extra sides, etc... and it all costs extra. Last year, I talked to them about how the regular lunch should be enough, if they pick all the options they're allowed. That if they want something extra, we can talk about them earning some money with extra chores, so they pay for the goodies themselves. They'd been real good about sticking to just the lunches. Yesterday, I got an email notification warning me that their accounts were low... Surprising, because when my tax return came in, I'd filled them up with enough money to last until the end of the school year. Turns out, both of them had been sneaking extra goodies in the lunch line without asking and without telling me. Now their accounts are almost empty, and I don't have any money planned into the budget to refill them with. And when I asked them about it they said, "We thought we talked to you about it, and you said okay." :redcard: A blatant lie... We hadn't talked about it, and if we had, I would have said no. 

Finally, this morning, I asked D13 to reload the dishwasher... She grumbled about it, and did a half-assed job of it so she could finish quickly and get back to video games or whatever. I made her do it again, and get got a bit pissy about it, and started taking out a little bit on her brother. I calmly and respectfully called her on it and told her to knock it off. She shot back, "I'm grouchy and upset and I'm trying really hard to not be, but you keep yelling at me!" :redcard: "No. You are grouchy and upset because you got caught doing a sloppy job with the dishes. That's not my fault, and you are not allowed to blame me or anyone else for it. Mistakes happen. Take responsibility for your mistake, fix it and change your attitude."

**SIGH!**

It may seem like kids are doing okay with the separation and impending divorce, but if you look close, they're unintentionally learning all the same manipulation and avoidance techniques that STBXW has been using on me... Hiding things, lying, blame shifting, etc...

It's going to be hard locking that down, while she's still living here. :banghead: I'll have to bring it up at my next IC session. Maybe my counselor has some advice.


Pb.


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## Pbartender

Freak On a Leash said:


> :scratchhead: Is this based on the TV show _Freaks and Geeks_? What a great show that was! Too bad it only went 1 season.


Oh no, not specifically. It's just people who like geeky-nerdy stuff of any kind... Video games, roleplaying games, sci-fi, fantasy, comic books, anime, whatever floats your boat but isn't typically considered a "mainstream" interest.



Freak On a Leash said:


> Meetups are great, aren't they? You did the right thing going to it. Your kids are old enough to fend for themselves and they are going to have to figure out that your needs are important to.


I actually ran a cross a local singles group that I might try out. The fellow who runs it has some basic, but strictly enforced guidelines for the group... You must be single -- separated, divorced, single or widowed. You must have a recent, time-stamped picture that includes you face as your profile picture. You must be between 29 and 49 years old. If you haven't visited the site in more than four months, he boots you. And he reserves the right to boot anyone acts like an asshat.

The idea is to keep the group small, but active.

I might give it a shot.



Freak On a Leash said:


> Your STBX certainly is giving you a hard time. It sounds like you and the STBX need to sit down and draw up a schedule of some sort.


If I thought I could get her to sit and actually talk to me about it, I would. It's her avoidance that's causing most of the trouble right now.



Freak On a Leash said:


> It's too bad that she's so difficult to deal with. Sounds like you might have to "lawyer up" at some point if she doesn't settle down.


I already have lawyered up... but she's dragging it out. I'm actually getting close to running out of retainer, and will have to find some cash to refill it with soon.



Freak On a Leash said:


> My STBX and I haven't done anything formal with regards to a visitation schedule but mostly it's because my son is a bit older and he really just needs looking after if I'm actually out all night. My son is very admantant about being able to choose the time he wants to spend with his father and be here at home so we are trying to accommodate him on that. With us, it seems to be working out at this point. My STBXH's pretty good about watching my son if I have to go out of town. He also doesn't work and have any money to do anything much. We'll probably going to have to draw up something for the summer though. It'll help that my daughter will be living home though.


The tricky part for me, is that STBXW is still living at home, but is acting like I have full custody and she just comes to visit the kid now and again. I need to find a way to convince her to move out on her own, with her turning it into "He kicked me out of my own house!"



Freak On a Leash said:


> It sounds like your STBXW is busier though and less inclined to accomodate you so drawing up a schedule would help both of you to plan out stuff.


That's just it, though... She doesn't plan. Not really. She schedules, and then informs... often she doesn't even inform.



Freak On a Leash said:


> If you don't come up with a visitation schedule, budget, support, etc, then you'll probably be going contested and a judge will decide after a long, drawn out process.


Right. I know. And everyone else involved... me, my lawyer, even her lawyer ...is on board with that, except her. My lawyer has already told me that if she delays things too much, we'll simply push things forward without her.



Freak On a Leash said:


> I can't believe you have a TWO WEEK course on parenting and divorce? What about WORK? Fortunately here it's only one day on a Friday, which happens to be my day off.


Oh... Misunderstanding. It's two (one for legal stuff, and one for psychological stuff) 3-hour Wednesday night sessions, on successive weeks.


Pb.


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## LostOneForGood

Pbar, I swear, you told my entire story from last year!! I mean almost word for word (except the co workers) hers was old high scool friends from FB she met up with.. Wow, sad that this SH%& happens, but when stuff is almost identical.. 

I gotta tell you, I am at a point I TRUST NO ONE!! What I went through was HELL on Earth, but to ake things worse, I have been hit on by several "Married Women" since i have been home... The thing is, I know them and their husbands.. I know all of them!!! The husbands have done nothing wrong, the wifes told me so, they just want different.. COME ON!!!! 
I went off!! Pisses me off beyond belief!!!

I hate for you that you have to be in the same house and run into her. We had no kids and I dont live in the same town anymore.

If you want PM me, Ill talk to ya!!!:smthumbup:


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## Freak On a Leash

Pbartender said:


> Oh no, not specifically. It's just people who like geeky-nerdy stuff of any kind... Video games, roleplaying games, sci-fi, fantasy, comic books, anime, whatever floats your boat but isn't typically considered a "mainstream" interest.
> 
> I actually ran a cross a local singles group that I might try out. The fellow who runs it has some basic, but strictly enforced guidelines for the group... You must be single -- separated, divorced, single or widowed. You must have a recent, time-stamped picture that includes you face as your profile picture. You must be between 29 and 49 years old. If you haven't visited the site in more than four months, he boots you. And he reserves the right to boot anyone acts like an asshat.
> 
> The idea is to keep the group small, but active.
> 
> I might give it a shot.


Can't hurt. I belong to a bunch of Meetups. Several are "social" groups but aren't specifically for singles, dating, etc. A few are but they often schedule stuff for nights I am working or are too far away. I haven't met anyone who interests me in any case, except for 1 guy which didn't work out. I basically just go to have fun. 

I like the Freak/Geeks/Weirdos idea. Sounds fun! I love Sci-Fi, fantasy and play World or Warcraft and am a big LOTRs fan (along with Harry Potter, Chronicles of Narnia, etc) so that sounds awesome. :smthumbup:




> The tricky part for me, is that STBXW is still living at home, but is acting like I have full custody and she just comes to visit the kid now and again. I need to find a way to convince her to move out on her own, with her turning it into "He kicked me out of my own house!"
> 
> That's just it, though... She doesn't plan. Not really. She schedules, and then informs... often she doesn't even inform.
> 
> Right. I know. And everyone else involved... me, my lawyer, even her lawyer ...is on board with that, except her. My lawyer has already told me that if she delays things too much, we'll simply push things forward without her.


You got a bad situation going on.  She's trying to wear you down and drain you of resources. Someone's been talking to her. You need to grab the proverbial bull by the horns and push forward ASAP. In the end, if she doesn't come to terms with you then the court will dictate what's going to be what.

I assume you are documenting everything so that you can prove that she's been carrying on like this, not pulling her share of the weight with the kids, etc. 

If you want and get full custody then she's going to have to pay you, especially if she's now making good money. Her party is going to becoming to an abrupt end and you need to make sure it's sooner than later. Sounds like it's time play hardball.


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## Pbartender

Freak On a Leash said:


> I like the Freak/Geeks/Weirdos idea. Sounds fun! I love Sci-Fi, fantasy and play World or Warcraft and am a big LOTRs fan (along with Harry Potter, Chronicles of Narnia, etc) so that sounds awesome. :smthumbup:


You'd fit right in. 



Freak On a Leash said:


> You got a bad situation going on.  She's trying to wear you down and drain you of resources. Someone's been talking to her. You need to grab the proverbial bull by the horns and push forward ASAP.


Hard to say if she's doing it on purpose... It's always been her MO to avoid problems, if she can't bluster her way out of a bad situation.

Fortunately, her lawyer is doing a lot of the necessary stuff on her behalf... He accepted service on her behalf, and filed the appearance already. I don't think she even knows he did.



Freak On a Leash said:


> In the end, if she doesn't come to terms with you then the court will dictate what's going to be what.
> 
> I assume you are documenting everything so that you can prove that she's been carrying on like this, not pulling her share of the weight with the kids, etc.


Oh, absolutely. Have been for a while. If it does go to court, she'll likely end up with a lot worse than what I'm offering her now... Despite what she thinks, I'll have a good chance of getting primary physical custody of the kids and child support, too.



Freak On a Leash said:


> If you want and get full custody then she's going to have to pay you, especially if she's now making good money. Her party is going to becoming to an abrupt end and you need to make sure it's sooner than later. Sounds like it's time play hardball.


Right... And I think that's really why she's dragging it out. Not so much as a tactic to get something out of the settlement, but to delay the end of the party as long as possible.

But right now, I have to be patient, to a certain degree, because of the way the legal system works. I don't like the situation, and I'm not happy with having to wait to end this, but dragging it out will hurt her more in the end than it will me.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

LostOneForGood said:


> I mean almost word for word (except the co workers) hers was old high scool friends from FB she met up with..


You know I find it interesting...

Looking back, almost every single one of my wife's friends came from school -- high school or college -- or her job. A very few of them came from church, when she still went to church, or were other school moms from when we all hung out together in front of the elementary school waiting for our kids to come out. Any others were friends that I made, that she latched onto as well. Even her new boyfriend is a guy she works with.

But college was 15 years ago, she hasn't been to church for years, and our kids ride the bus to middle school... The only friends she has now are those she works with. She's let all the others drift away. And since the separation and imminent divorce, most of my friends have pulled away from her. She's even lost contact with most of her family... even her mother and her only sister.

So, if she already has continuous daily contact with someone, she'll make friends with them effortlessly. But once she loses contact, they quickly fall of the radar, and she won't go outside her comfort zone to maintain contact or find new friends. 

It's a little sad, really.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Okay. I just wrote up this email for my STBXW. I haven't sent it yet. I want you guys to look it over for me, before I do... 



> [STBXW],
> 
> It has been nearly a month since I replied to your email suggestion for custody schedules. Since then, neither I nor my attorney have heard anything more about it from you, and nothing from your attorney, either. You refuse to talk with me about the divorce agreement in person, you refuse to talk about it over email, and you are refusing to communicate through your attorney. If you are not willing to work this through with me, then there is no process to be patient with. That is not acceptable.
> 
> Last summer you were telling me to give up hope, to let go, to move on. You were telling me that we were no longer married, and that we were just "two people who happened to have kids". Later, in November, you said, "Let's get it done ASAP," and "I'm not willing to wait," and "We can file as soon as this Friday!" Now that I finally have let go and am ready to move on, you want me to be patient? No. I will not accept that.
> 
> We may have a "not unsafe" situation at home, but it's also an unacceptable situation. Neither of us can truly move on while we are still living together. Neither of us has enough privacy from the other to begin building the new private lives we want. We don't have a parenting schedule for the kids, and so we keep getting in each other's way. We both live in the same house and make practically the same amount of money, but pay unequal shares of the household bills. We spend much of our time purposefully avoiding each other and trying to pretend the other isn't there, so we don't bump into each other financially, parentally or socially. It's not healthy for any of us... not you, not me, and definitely not the kids. That is no longer acceptable.
> 
> I could move out tomorrow, if I wanted to. If you decided you wanted to keep the house, if you were certain you could refinance the mortgage and pay for all the bills, I would let you have it and move out as soon as I could find an apartment. Likewise, unless you have been seriously squandering your money since your promotion and raise, I believe you could move out just as easily, if you wanted to... I know for certain that I can refinance the house, and I know for certain that I can pay all the bills by myself. Furthermore, as I mentioned before, we could liquidate my retirement account and use that to pay off all our credit cards and both of our car loans. There would still be enough left for whoever moved out to use as a down payment, or to help furnish an apartment. The sooner we come to an agreement, the sooner we can finalize the divorce, and the sooner one of us can move out. Saying that neither of us can move out in the near future is nothing more than an excuse to delay the divorce. That is not acceptable.
> 
> If you are comfortable with it and you can set your feelings aside, you and I can sit down and hammer out these last few details in less than an hour. Once we have an agreement we both agree on, my attorney can take care of the rest.
> 
> If you would rather, you and I can negotiate via email, instead. But if we do, you need to check your email more often than once a week, you need to start replying to your emails promptly, and you need to stay up to date with your lawyer.
> 
> Or, I can talk to my lawyer and he can schedule a meeting with all four of us -- me, you, him, and your attorney. We can all meet together, work out the agreement, and get it done right there and then.
> 
> I only ever hired my attorney to write up the paperwork for us, to file for us, and for his experience and expertise so that both of us would understand all of our options and choices... You had fair warning that that's what I was doing, and you agreed to it. It was never my intention to hire him to fight for me or to negotiate for me, though I will pay him to do so, if necessary. If you cannot find a way to work this through with me now, then I will talk to my attorney and we will start looking for ways to move the process forward without you.
> 
> Make your choice.
> 
> 
> [Pbar].


Tell me what you think... Anything I can improve upon?

It was tough to write. Every fiber of my being was screaming out to let it ride... be patient... don't do anything that would make her mad... let her run out the clock and deal with the circumstances of her actions.

Oof. That was surprisingly exhausting.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

You are talking way too much.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> You are talking way too much.


Yeah... Nervous habit. And gives her too much to nitpick and deflect and distract and avoid with.

The abridged version:



> [STBXW],
> 
> It has been nearly a month since I replied to your suggestions for custody schedules. Since then, neither I nor my attorney have heard anything more about it from either you or your attorney. You've refused to discuss the divorce agreement in any manner. I am not okay with that.
> 
> Last year you were telling me to give up hope, to let go, to move on, and you pushed to get the divorce done as soon as possible. Now you want me to be patient? I am not okay with that.
> 
> We may have a "not unsafe" situation at home, but it's also not healthy for any of us... not you, not me, and definitely not the kids. I am not okay with that.
> 
> I could move out tomorrow, if I wanted to. Likewise, unless you have been squandering your money, I believe you could move out just as easily. Furthermore, as I mentioned previously, liquidating our retirement accounts as a part of the divorce would allow us to pay off all our debts and still leave enough left for whoever leaves to find a new place. Saying that neither of us can move out in the near future is just an excuse to delay the divorce. I am not okay with that.
> 
> You and I need to sit down and hammer out the last few details of the agreement. Once we have an agreement we both agree on, my attorney can take care of the rest. We can do it face-to-face, over email, or in a meeting with our lawyers present.
> 
> If you cannot find a way to work this through with me now, then I will talk to my attorney and we will start looking for ways to move the process forward without you.
> 
> Make your choice. Whatever you decide, I am not okay with delaying the divorce any further.
> 
> 
> [Pbar].


Better?


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

My attorney and I have heard nothing from you for nearly a month. I'm not ok with the lack of responsiveness.

The situation at home is not healthy for any of us and I am not okay with that.

Saying that neither of us can move out in the near future is just an excuse to delay the divorce. We can finish our agreement face-to-face, over email, or in a meeting with our lawyers present. 

If I hear nothing before next Monday my attorney will move the process forward without you.

I look forward to your reply.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> My attorney and I have heard nothing from you for nearly a month. I'm not ok with the lack of responsiveness.
> 
> The situation at home is not healthy for any of us and I am not okay with that.
> 
> Saying that neither of us can move out in the near future is just an excuse to delay the divorce. We can finish our agreement face-to-face, over email, or in a meeting with our lawyers present.
> 
> If I hear nothing before next Monday my attorney will move the process forward without you.
> 
> I look forward to your reply.


Conrad, the King of Concise. I have a tough time being less than conversational.

Thank you. That's perfect.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Conrad, the King of Concise. I have a tough time being less than conversational.
> 
> Thank you. That's perfect.
> 
> 
> Pb.


Emotional communication is bullet-pointed and short.

There is no earthly doubt on what's going to happen with no action on her part.


----------



## staystrong

Yeah, the long version of anything screams "I'm spending way too much time thinking about you and your response". Been there, done that.


----------



## Pbartender

staystrong said:


> Yeah, the long version of anything screams "I'm spending way too much time thinking about you and your response". Been there, done that.


Yep... And nice guys and codependents have a real easy time over-thinking what they should be saying. I still feel it a bit. It took me a day and a half to work up the nerve to even think about typing that up. And then, once I started, I couldn't stop fussing over getting it to sound just right -- it had to be firm enough to get her moving, but not so much that it would piss her off and make her fight for no reason.

Lost my zen dude-ism for a moment, there.

Thanks for the kick in the pants, guys. :smthumbup:


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Yep... And nice guys and codependents have a real easy time over-thinking what they should be saying. I still feel it a bit. It took me a day and a half to work up the nerve to even think about typing that up. And then, once I started, I couldn't stop fussing over getting it to sound just right -- it had to be firm enough to get her moving, but not so much that it would piss her off and make her fight for no reason.
> 
> Lost my zen dude-ism for a moment, there.
> 
> Thanks for the kick in the pants, guys. :smthumbup:
> 
> 
> Pb.


Our job is to chip away at codependent behavior.

Explaining why you are angry (as if she would EVER agree) is codependent.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Explaining why you are angry (as if she would EVER agree) is codependent.


Absolutely.

I think I was getting stuck trying logically explain things in an effort to convince her that moving forward is in her best interest... Completely forgetting that rational arguments are useless when you are dealing with someone who is feeling, thinking and acting irrationally.

That's a lesson I should have learned by now. Or, rather... It's a lesson I already knew, but was perfectly lost in the midst of my (codependent) anxiety about confronting her. 

I don't have this sort of stage fright standing up to anyone else in the world. For that matter, I never used to be like this even with her, when we first started dating and got married... What changed?


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

I think you'll laugh when I ask this question:

How many times have you convinced her of anything?


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> I think you'll laugh when I ask this question:
> 
> How many times have you convinced her of anything?


You know... It used to be that way. We could have a disagreement, we'd both lay out our reasons, one would convince the other, and the other would change opinion.

But it hasn't been like that in a long, long time... Not that it's stopped me from trying. I know deep down, it won't work, but it's like an instinctive desire to understand and to be understood. Sometimes, it takes so much effort to suppress that desire that the slightest distraction sends it all cattywampus. 

Maybe it's just a last vestige of hope and longing for what we used to be, what we could have been. It's hard to let those last bits go, while she's still here.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

That instinctive desire is codependence.

Are you in counseling?


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> That instinctive desire is codependence.
> 
> Are you in counseling?


Absolutely... Though up until now, we've mostly been dealing with the emotional rubble that directly resulted from the initial separation and threat of divorce, and STBXW's actions leading up to it and since.

Now that's all cleared away, we can start taking a good look at my psychological foundations, and maybe a do a few renovations.

In other words, I'm just getting to the point with my counselor where we can take a good, solid look at my own problems and start working on them. I've already planned on codependence and nice guy syndrome being the primary topics of discussion during my next few sessions.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Absolutely... Though up until now, we've mostly been dealing with the emotional rubble that directly resulted from the initial separation and threat of divorce, and STBXW's actions leading up to it and since.
> 
> Now that's all cleared away, we can start taking a good look at my psychological foundations, and maybe a do a few renovations.
> 
> In other words, I'm just getting to the point with my counselor where we can take a good, solid look at my own problems and start working on them. I've already planned on codependence and nice guy syndrome being the primary topics of discussion during my next few sessions.
> 
> 
> Pb.


You remember how Hermes' therapist blew off codependence as a topic?

Don't let that happen.

Make sure the counselor challenges you - or find another one.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> You remember how Hermes' therapist blew off codependence as a topic?
> 
> Don't let that happen.
> 
> Make sure the counselor challenges you - or find another one.


Heh... I don't expect she'll let that happen... And I certainly won't.

A few sessions ago, I had mentioned something about my mother. I can't remember exactly what it was. Maybe something about the relationship between my mother and father... They were both mutually codependent to each other, and I'd mentioned something to that effect once or twice.

Anyway, my counselor said something like, "Oh, I really want to talk about your mother, but not yet... We'll save that for a little later."

She's probably noticed the same sort of paradigm between me and my wife.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Men who pedestalize women sometimes transfer the desire to please their mother to their wife.

It's insidious.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Men who pedestalize women sometimes transfer the desire to please their mother to their wife.
> 
> It's insidious.


That also explains why my mother and my wife never entirely got along together.

My mother could be the subject of a whole thread just by herself.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> That also explains why my mother and my wife never entirely got along together.
> 
> My mother could be the subject of a whole thread just by herself.
> 
> 
> Pb.


Sounds like that's next on the menu.

Press forward courageously.


----------



## Pbartender

On a lighter note...

This morning I pulled a pair of jeans out of my basket of clean laundry. But when pulled them on, boy were they tight... as I squeezed into them, I kept thinking, "Did I shrink them in the wash? I can't have gained that much weight in a week -- not with all the exercising I've been doing. I can't have gained that much muscle in my thighs that quick, either. WTF!?"

I managed to get them all the way on, buttoned and zipped, though admittedly uncomfortably tight, when I realized... They were S14's jeans.



He wears a 30-inch waist. Right now, mine are 34-inch. When I started losing weight a little over a year ago, I was wearing 38-inch. It's slow and steady, but it would seem the workouts are working.

Plus... I just noticed that I've got at least one get-out-of-the-house-and-have-fun-without-the-kids thing scheduled every week for the next month and a half. I have a social life again.

:smthumbup:


Pb.


----------



## zillard

Ha. That's awesome PB. 

Thanks for that link, btw. Just tackled day 1 on the couch to 5k schedule. I went 2.4 miles with the walk/jog switch off and feel great. Then it dawned on me that 5k is 3 miles. I've so got this!


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Ha. That's awesome PB.
> 
> Thanks for that link, btw. Just tackled day 1 on the couch to 5k schedule. I went 2.4 miles with the walk/jog switch off and feel great. Then it dawned on me that 5k is 3 miles. I've so got this!


The triathlon I ran last year was a "sprint" distance triathlon... 750m (0.5 mi) swim, 20k (12 mi) bike, 5k (3 mi) run.

I've got a hankering to try one of these... 5K Obstacle Course Zombie Race - Run For Your Lives ...once the dust settle s on the divorce. Looks like fun.


Pb.


----------



## K.C.

That looks awesome.


----------



## zillard

The Zombie course does look awesome! 

This is the one I got invited to... totally different atmosphere. Should be some good scenery though. 

Bubble Run – Five Kilometers of Frothy Goodness


----------



## Pbartender

Just ran across this... Divorcing A Narcissist

A lot of it looks familiar.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Oh, this...



> *Be willing to set firm boundaries.* The narcissist believes their needs are more important than yours, they believe they are more intelligent than you and find it unacceptable that anyone would disagree with them. For this reason they lack an understanding of boundaries and respecting the needs of others.
> 
> You can't teach or expect the narcissist to ever respect your boundaries. You can, however refuse to allow the narcissist to cross your boundaries and cause you undue stress during the divorce process. This is done by you controlling what behaviors you will and will not allow.
> 
> Don't make the mistake of believing that trying to control the behaviors of the narcissist is the answer to setting boundaries with him/her. Most believe that protecting themselves and setting boundaries means confronting and being assertive. This does not work with the narcissist. The more you confront and assert your position the more you play into their game.
> 
> When setting boundaries with the narcissist you need to refuse to communicate unless it can be done in a manner free of conflict, manipulation and disrespect. You may need to insist that all communication is via email. You can let it be known that you will not respond to any communication that dismisses or belittles you and your needs.
> 
> You can expect the narcissist to push back against the boundaries you set. If you want to stop the cycle of abuse and disrespect you must be firm, stand your ground and refuse to allow him/her to push your buttons. Remember, you are trying to separate yourself from the narcissist. As I said, this is a threat to him/her so be on guard for efforts on their part to draw you back into the toxicity of the relationship.


...is especially relevant to my recent posts, and something I need to get better at with STBXW.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

Stay out of the drama triangle.
Validate but don't own their crap.
Don't engage unless necessary.


I understand. 
I'm sorry you feel that way.
I'm not ok with that.


----------



## BURNT KEP

Pbartender said:


> The triathlon I ran last year was a "sprint" distance triathlon... 750m (0.5 mi) swim, 20k (12 mi) bike, 5k (3 mi) run.
> 
> I've got a hankering to try one of these... 5K Obstacle Course Zombie Race - Run For Your Lives ...once the dust settle s on the divorce. Looks like fun.
> 
> 
> Pb.


Man that looks cool and its will be close in a couple of months. I think I will take my boys and go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

I already posted this in another thread, but I need to remind myself, as well...



Pbartender said:


> Or, rather... It's a lesson I already knew, but was perfectly lost in the midst of my (codependent) anxiety about confronting her.
> 
> I don't have this sort of stage fright standing up to anyone else in the world. For that matter, I never used to be like this even with her, when we first started dating and got married...


_I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain._


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

BURNT KEP said:


> Man that looks cool and its will be close in a couple of months. I think I will take my boys and go.


Just be aware that they need to 14 or older to participate, and they're under 18, you'll need to sign a waiver for them.

I'm thinking about putting together a costume to run in... Either Ash from _Army of Darkness_, or a really good Ghostbuster uniform.

I haven't decided which, yet.


Pb.


----------



## Chopsy

hey PB, just read your thread. I think you're doing great but defo a tricky situation. Any reply to your email? She is toxic and you need to gt her out. Hope you can move forward with the divorce asap.My situation is different but I am learning a lot from this. Loved Conrad's version of the email, I'm a former cd (I say former but it's still a work in progress), so I know the tendency to write a book instead off short to the point note. Thankfully we have Conrad here to show us how it's done!


----------



## Pbartender

Chopsy said:


> hey PB, just read your thread. I think you're doing great but defo a tricky situation.


Thanks for saying so. The worst part is realizing half the situation is my own fault... Letting myself get manipulated into agreements while I was too emotionally weak to stand up for myself.

Makes me wish I'd found this forum a year earlier.

Oh, well. It's past and done. Time to eat my goddam lemons.



Chopsy said:


> Any reply to your email?


Nothing yet... Resisting the urge to drop her a hint suggesting that she might want to check her email.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

Resist. Act as promised if no response comes. 

X asks me almost every weekend. Did you get my email? Did you get my text? 

I reply, "Yes." and change the subject. I see her prodding as weak.

It's either that or she repeats what she wrote. About honey, or cable tv, etc. 

So I say, "Yes, I got your text".


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Resist. Act as promised if no response comes.


Oh, yeah... No worries... I got it... Just recognizing that the urge is there.


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BURNT KEP

Pbartender said:


> Just be aware that they need to 14 or older to participate, and they're under 18, you'll need to sign a waiver for them.
> 
> I'm thinking about putting together a costume to run in... Either Ash from _Army of Darkness_, or a really good Ghostbuster uniform.
> 
> I haven't decided which, yet.
> 
> Yes I was reading the rules on the web site my boys are 16 and 15 so I am good.
> Pb.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

Well, I know she's at least seen the email... Still no reply yet.

In other weirdness... I ran across several cardboard boxes of food and groceries that she half hid in the back of a closet.

 Crazy.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

She doesn't want to share


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> She doesn't want to share


I'm wondering if it isn't some left-over PTSD sort of thing from her childhood... Abandonment issues, grew up very poor, parentified at a young age, etc.

I suspect her reasoning might be something like, "I don't know if I'll be able to afford groceries, when he kicks me out, and I need to make sure I can feed the myself and the kids."

This is the same woman who was looking into applying for food stamps and WIC assistance for after the divorce, even though she earns slightly more than national average income by herself.

She's never had a very good grasp of basic financial concepts... Never could get a real handle on how much money she (or I) earns, how much she's spent, how much she has left, or what it's worth.

She seems to have a very distorted and uninformed view of our relative financial situations, and how that might effect the results of the divorce.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> I'm wondering if it isn't some left-over PTSD sort of thing from her childhood... Abandonment issues, grew up very poor, parentified at a young age, etc.
> 
> I suspect her reasoning might be something like, "I don't know if I'll be able to afford groceries, when he kicks me out, and I need to make sure I can feed the myself and the kids."
> 
> This is the same woman who was looking into applying for food stamps and WIC assistance for after the divorce, even though she earns slightly more than national average income by herself.
> 
> She's never had a very good grasp of basic financial concepts... Never could get a real handle on how much money she (or I) earns, how much she's spent, how much she has left, or what it's worth.
> 
> She seems to have a very distorted and uninformed view of our relative financial situations, and how that might effect the results of the divorce.
> 
> 
> Pb.


And, cute little codependents (like us) think filling in those gaps for them would make them love us.

Truth is, they never saw it.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> And, cute little codependents (like us) think filling in those gaps for them would make them love us.
> 
> Truth is, they never saw it.


Worse than that, the narcissism often lets them think that there isn't a gap to begin with... They'll let themselves believe that they are exceptionally skilled in that area and/or everyone else (including us) is bumblers.

Not only do they not see it as someone showing their love through action, and not love us in return for it, they _resent_ us for taking the responsibility away from them... for doing it better than them... for exposing their weakness... for forcing them to admit that they need help sometimes... for stealing the glory and attention that they should have gotten...

When we do something nice or helpful for them, regardless of our intentions and expectations, they don't think, "Oh, thanks! I did it so much better/faster/easier/etc with your help! I really appreciate that!"

Instead, they think, "He doesn't trust me to do anything myself. He thinks he's better than me. He thinks I'm stupid. I could have done it better myself."

Well, then... Now she can do it herself. Her problems are no longer my problems. I have enough of my own gaps to fill in.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> You remember how Hermes' therapist blew off codependence as a topic?
> 
> Don't let that happen.
> 
> Make sure the counselor challenges you - or find another one.


By the way, I just scheduled my next session with my counselor, and said that I'd like to start addressing my own contributions to the problems that led to divorce -- codependence et al. -- and that I need to relearn how to set solid boundaries, and hot to stand my ground and defend them when necessary.

Sounds like she's all on board with it.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Ten days into Power 90. The workouts are still challenging, but my muscles are no longer stiff and sore the next day. I don't see an obvious change yet, but I'm down 5 pounds from the start.

Tonight, I'm meeting up with a bunch of my new imaginary friends at a pub to go see a local band that covers 80s hair-bands.

Still no reply from STBXW.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

I've hit the point where I'm gaining weight slowly but the skinny jeans aren't shrinking!


----------



## Pbartender

Deadline's today... Still nothing from STBXW or her attorney. I'll write an email to my lawyer when I get home from work today.

Apparently, she's been a little too preoccupied with posOM, since when she left Friday evening to give him another "ride home from work", she didn't come home until 7:30 am Saturday morning... No skin off my back, except for the fact that she didn't let anyone know -- neither me nor the kids -- that she wasn't coming home until the next morning. D13 was a little confused and worried when she woke up and Mom wasn't home.

Priorities.

No worries, though... I started our usual Saturday morning house cleaning about 9:00 am, beginning with the vacuuming. 

And besides, I was feeling pretty jazzed from my own fun the night before...

*THIS JUST IN! PBARTENDER MAULED BY COUGAR!*

The Meetup on Friday was great. Really good Irish pub, and a fantastic cover band playing old Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, Gun & Roses, et al. It was my first outing with this group, so there was a lot of introductions and mingling going on. There was one other newbie there -- a pretty hot older woman -- and so we sort of ended up sticking together much of the night. She seemed to be digging on me, and when the bar scene started getting a little tiresome, we stepped outside and took a walk down by the river. Later, when I walked her out to her car, she practically dragged me into the back seat, and we made out like a couple of teenagers in high school. She spent the rest of the weekend texting me.

:smthumbup:

Saturday the kids I cleaned the house, ran some errands together and then hung out watching movies and eating pizza.

Sunday, I played Dungeons & Dragons all afternoon with some friends. Later, unexpectedly, my two hot blonde Moms invited me out to the local watering hole to watch the Blackhawks game. STBXW was out with the kids at a movie, so I went... More on that later.

:smthumbup: :smthumbup:

Still working out... I'm down another pound over the weekend, which puts me back to where I was before the Holidays.

All in all, a pretty damn good weekend.


----------



## ReGroup

What happens if the deadline isn't met?


----------



## Pbartender

ReGroup said:


> What happens if the deadline isn't met?


Oh, that was way back on page 2. Frustrated with being stone walled by STBXW, I sent an email to her about a week ago. Conrad's post sums it up...



Conrad said:


> My attorney and I have heard nothing from you for nearly a month. I'm not ok with the lack of responsiveness.
> 
> The situation at home is not healthy for any of us and I am not okay with that.
> 
> Saying that neither of us can move out in the near future is just an excuse to delay the divorce. We can finish our agreement face-to-face, over email, or in a meeting with our lawyers present.
> 
> If I hear nothing before next Monday my attorney will move the process forward without you.
> 
> I look forward to your reply.


So, I'm going to talk to him about:


How we can move the divorce process forward, when she's refusing to negotiate in good faith by stonewalling.
She's still living in the marital home, but not paying a fair share of the household bills. Can we either find a way to get her to pay "rent" while she's living here, or...
Can we find a way to get her to move out into her own place?


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> Later, unexpectedly, my two hot blonde Moms invited me out to the local watering hole to watch the Blackhawks game. STBXW was out with the kids at a movie, so I went... More on that later.


Okay, for those who might not remember, a little background...

*"#3"* was one of several men my STBXW had been EAing in the last year. He is a divorced, single dad, a couple years younger than me, good-looking, charming, naturally athletic, and is widely popular with both men and women. I met him about a year and a half ago, I was coaching the robotics team that both his son and mine were and became friends. After I introduced him to STBXW, she started stalking him in a one-sided EA. In January, she made a move on him, and he turned her down.

*"HBM"* (Hot Blonde Mom)... (there's actually two HBMs and I'm currently friends with both, but only one has shown interested and the other has a steady boyfriend -- here, HBM will refer to the interested hot blonde mom) ...is a divorced, single mom, 5 or six years older than me (Thanks, Freak!), good-looking, charming, works out to keep a nice figure, and is widely popular with both men and women. I met her at one of #3's parties (they've known each other since grade school), and we seemed to hit it off... We chatted each other up, we danced, we flirted and she was showing a lot of the typical small signals of interest. Backing up just a little and chillaxing about it and observing (Thanks Conrad and COguy!), I noticed that while she doesn't act that way with every guy, she's got a small group of guys that she does... I'm not the only one. That's cool. During a couple conversations with her, I noted how she talked about how she liked being single, and how she was "sort of" seeing #3. That's cool, too. I took it for what it was, nipped my expectations in the bud, and just let myself enjoy the time we were spending together. We've become very good friends in the last two months since we met.

*So, last night...*

It had been a busy couple of weeks, so we hadn't hung out together in a while. HBM's Hot Blonde Friend (HBF) dropped a Facebook status asking what was going with people today. I replied, amongst the others, that I just got back from a D&D game, and then I was planning working out, and then pizza and beer while catching up on some TV shows.

HBM texted me that they were at the local dive watching the 'Hawks game, if I wanted to join them. I replied that I might after some dinner.

So, later, we were watching the game at the bar and drinking a few beers... Goofing off and chatting about this and that in the way we have been. After the game's over and HBF and HBF's boyfriend leave, apropos of nothing, HBM starts telling me about how she's backing off from seeing #3, trying to get back to "just friends" with him. Turns out, she wanted to keep the relationship -- especially the physical relationship -- unobtrusive around her kids (she has a son in the same grade as his, and they're friends), and he was pushing it. Plus, he _really_ wants someone he can have more kids with, while she doesn't want more kids and can't have more kids. They both care for each other deeply, but they're not on the same page as far as the expectations for the relationship goes. She's backing things off, and he's being all nice-guy-codependent-clingy about it (It's almost fascinating to see it from the outside), and that's making her wonder if she needs to back off more.

In the meantime, while all this was happening, a random fellow who was already more than a little tipsy was hitting on her a little bit. When asked, she introduced me as "my friend, Pbar", and I told him, "No worries, I'm just here in case she needs an excuse." Later, after she rebuffed him several times as politely as she could, he admitted defeat, saying, "Look at you... You guys are into each other... I don't stand a chance." Left her kind of speechless, that did.

Anyway, she finishes up with, "I just wanted to let you know what's going on between us." Which made me wonder for a moment... Why? She's got lot of girl friends -- HBF is one -- who she's very close with, and who I'm certain she confides this sort of stuff in. What's it any of my business? Could she be more interested in me than I thought?

She gave me several big hugs before we left, and made me promise that we'd hang out more often.

So, I'm not entirely what to make of it, yet... The way she _talks_ sounds like I'm in the friendzone, but the way she _acts_ feels otherwise.

I'm not entirely sure I should bother trying to make something of it, yet... Probably better to just chillax, keep doing what I'm doing, and see where it goes.

Zen Dudeism... Whatever happens, happens, and if it doesn't, that's cool... She and I have a pretty good thing going already, and that's fine.


Pb.


----------



## ReGroup

It's amazing how awake we are to all of these things now. 

Seeing the signs of Co-Dependency, spotting the signs of attraction, observing key hints, etc...

I exchanged contact information with a friend of a friend... after we started texting - she began sending me pictures of her dog, nephews, and some other stuff... Signals went ringing all over the place. Turned me off completely.


----------



## Pbartender

Hah! It worked!

Just got this in from my attorney...



> FYI. Please let me know what you want to do with the home. I presume you want it but please verify. Also please let me know if you want to sit down for a 4 way which would be us, Wendy and her attorney. I would advise we do. Also when would be a good time? I have requested they provide a response though so I know what we are negotiating


The attached email he forwarded to me was from STBXW's lawyer, and reads:



> Sorry for the delay.
> I thought the e-mail below was sent out days ago:
> 
> My client and I wish to schedule a 4-way settlement conference.
> 
> however, more pressing --
> 
> What does your client wish to do with the marital residence? My client does not wish the home. So if refinancing -- please have him start the process. or Selling, I suggest finding an agent as the season is upon us.


Rock. On.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Hah! It worked!
> 
> Just got this in from my attorney...
> 
> 
> 
> The attached email he forwarded to me was from STBXW's lawyer, and reads:
> 
> 
> 
> Rock. On.
> 
> 
> Pb.


Of course it did.

Stay the course.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Of course it did.


She has enough stubborn pride, that I thought she might try to call my bluff... Which wouldn't have worked, of course, since it wasn't.


Pb.


----------



## caladan

You're okay dude.

Be fair, be firm. It's all coming together for you, and this makes me really, really glad brah.


----------



## Pbartender

Rough day today... Sore back... Caught some kind of cold... Couldn't sleep last night...

Called in sick to work and took the day off, not realizing it was STBXW's day off as well. Being sick and overtired, I just locked myself in my bedroom and slept all day.

On the other hand, Mrs. Cougar is coming on strong, and we've got a date planned for next week.


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

D13 had an orchestra concert last night... STBXW took her over early, and I arrived a little later. For the first time, I just didn't bother to look for STBXW, and just found my own seat. Between numbers, I had some perfectly pleasant conversation with an elderly gentleman sitting nearby.

Afterward, I congratulated D13 on her performance, and since she'd left her coat with STBXW, I waited just long enough for her to find us. She didn't look happy. D13 gave me a big hug, I confirmed she was riding home with STBXW, and told them I'd meet them at home. Then I left.

D13's got her choir concert tonight. So, I'll try it again.

Also, more from MIL, this morning:

_"I feel sorry for both of you - you're a survivor [Pbar] and you will get through this. On the other hand [STBXW] will continue to hide from reality and I couldn't help her as a teenager so now all I can do is pray for her. Keep the faith and I will always be there for you and the kids in any way I can."_

It's almost like something I'd hear from one of you TAMers.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> D13's got her choir concert tonight. So, I'll try it again.


STBXW took D13 to her concert early again. I'd told them both that I'd be there, but that I'd follow later. I sat on my own again.

Afterward, I stepped out to the lobby, where we were supposed to meet the children. I waited... and waited... and waited... Turns out STBXW had met D13 back stage and then went straight home with her.

When I finally got home, I still had the program from the concert. STBXW pointed to it, and said to D13, "See? I told you that's where he was."

*Pb:* (To D13) I was sitting up in the balcony. You guys sounded great tonight. I waited in the lobby for you, but didn't see you there.

*STBXW:* We left right away to beat the crowd...

*Pb:* ...

*STBXW:* ...I didn't think you were there.

That's right. In the space of two sentences, she went from "I told you that's where he was," to "I didn't think you were there." I don't think I've ever seen her retcon herself _that_ fast before.

:bsflag:


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

And, I'm hoping you responded with, "I'm not ok with that"


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> And, I'm hoping you responded with, "I'm not ok with that"


More or less...

By the time she finished, I had naturally fallen into my "Dad Stare"... The one I usually use on the kids as I patiently wait, while they dig themselves into a hole by futilely trying to convince me why they aren't really in trouble over whatever it was they got caught doing.

She saw it. D13 saw it. I'm pretty sure they both knew exactly what it meant. Her excuses stopped dead.

"Unacceptable." Then, I left the room.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

So, on Monday, it was...



> My client and I wish to schedule a 4-way settlement conference.


...from STBXW's attorney. My lawyer wanted to schedule for this week or next, but it's now Friday and there hasn't been another word from them since.

I'll give it the weekend, and then send another email to her on Monday...



> My attorney and I are still waiting to hear back from you to schedule the 4-way conference. The delays are unacceptable.
> 
> If I hear nothing before next Monday, I will instruct my attorney to move the process forward without you.
> 
> I look forward to your reply.



Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> So, on Monday, it was...
> 
> 
> 
> ...from STBXW's attorney. My lawyer wanted to schedule for this week or next, but it's now Friday and there hasn't been another word from them since.
> 
> I'll give it the weekend, and then send another email to her on Monday...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pb.


Make the deadline Friday of the same week.

Move things forward the following Monday.

Clean break.


----------



## Pbartender

*Weekend Update:*

Counseling session went well on Friday. We didn't quite get to setting boundaries and keeping them, but we went over how I've been handling situations lately (mostly pretty well, she thinks)... We talked about triggers (such as appeals to my responsibility to the kids), about what the triggers are triggering (shame, guilt, self-doubt, unnecessary self-sacrifice, etc...). The goal is to be aware and recognize the triggers, so I can be prepared for the effects.

Friday night, I dropped off D13 at the local Happy-Fun-Time-Place, so she could spend some of her babysitting money hanging out with her friends. Picked her up a few hours later. She spent the whole ride home talking about how much fun she had, and thanked me three or four times for letting her go. I realized, yeah... At that age, she needs relaxing fun time out on her own with her friends just as much as I do right now.

AXW (STBXW is too long...  ...I'm called her "Almost Ex-Wife" now) didn't come home from work Friday night. Wandered in at 8:30 am Saturday morning. Worked her usual shift until later in the night, and went back out to give posOM a ride home from work... Didn't come back home until sometime Sunday afternoon. (I'm not exactly certain when... I was out playing D&D for the afternoon.)

I stepped out for a few drinks with the Cougar Saturday night. It was fun, but she started pulling out "If you do this... then I'll do..." and "If you want this... then you have to..." sort of talk. Later recognized it as a big trigger for me... Started kicking in the "she'll like me, if I make her happy" sort of feelings. No more hoop jumping. Do it because you want to, or don't. No more conditions.

I'll have to talk to her about it. If she keeps it up, I'll have to call it off.

Oh, also... I found out that the whole reason AXW is giving posOM rides to work and back, isn't because he's sharing a car with his mother, as I previously thought. It's because he got a DUI and had his license revoked. The suspension ended something like a year ago, but he hasn't bothered to do what he needs to do to get it back yet. Plus, he's having problems with anxiety attacks.

Which normally I wouldn't care about, because it's none of my business, but... Remember how I mentioned AXW took the kids to a movie last week? turns out posOM went along, as well. Yeah, that's right. She's taking him along on outings with the kids, now.

:redcard: 


Pb.


----------



## tom67

The guy sounds like a real winner too. That takes some brass cojones to do that crap but whatever misery loves company I guess.


----------



## Chuck71

POSOM should live in his mother's basement and watch porn at 3AM. I thought the A stood for a$$hole when you first typed it. She wants this POSOM to feed her illusion of "I can make it". Trust me....this dude does this only because....he is getting something out of it...after work. She thinks he really likes her....illusion....feeds it by involving kids....

Wonder how the kids felt about going to see movie with POSOM. She knows PB will be there to watch the kids on the weekend....wonder how reaction would be if PB had weekend plans??? Your D is at the age where she notices her mom's erratic behavior. AXW thinks she looks cool.....LOL far from it. Putting a know-nothing drunk who will chase anything to get what he wants before the welfare and observing of her children.....soooo not good.

Good call on the cougar. It's easy to fall into that trap. With the gal I am seeing....I let it be known up front I had several things I enjoy and if you are not suitable for them...I hate it for ya. She was cool about each of them. 

Have you considered having her sign a month to month lease or a co-lease? It will not work but it would let her know you are not the Hyatt. Her mom's 'letter' to you sounded just like something my MiL would send me....if she were still alive. There were times I felt a closer bond with my MiL than wife....that's not a good sign.


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> POSOM should live in his mother's basement and watch porn at 3AM.


I don't know about the porn, but he does live with his parents.



Chuck71 said:


> She wants this POSOM to feed her illusion of "I can make it".


Like a "Nice Guy", she doesn't know how to validate herself. So, she's trading sex and affectionate attention for his external validation.



Chuck71 said:


> Wonder how the kids felt about going to see movie with POSOM... ...Your D is at the age where she notices her mom's erratic behavior.


I can't say for certain... They haven't talked about it, and I'm not going to ask.

S14 is a little bit autistic, and easily misses these sorts of cues and clues, so he may not think anything of it, yet.

My daughter is that age, however, where girls become keenly aware of social interactions... She can see her mother giving posOM rides home from work every night and come home unusually late afterward. She can hear her mother telling lies about where she's going, who she's going with and when she'll be home. I'm sure D13 knows more about what's going on, than she lets on.



Chuck71 said:


> She knows PB will be there to watch the kids on the weekend....wonder how reaction would be if PB had weekend plans???


Thus far, her reaction has been... To continue as before.



Chuck71 said:


> Good call on the cougar. It's easy to fall into that trap.


I think what's itching me about it, is that it's reminiscent of the same sort of affection for validation "prostitution" that my wife's been peddling.

It's disrespectful and demeaning to both of us, and it's not something I will tolerate in a relationship anymore.



Chuck71 said:


> Have you considered having her sign a month to month lease or a co-lease? It will not work but it would let her know you are not the Hyatt.


No, it won't work... If she decides to negotiate, I'm going to push to have it included in the settlement agreement -- a set payment each month to help with the bills. If she continues to stall, I'll look into getting a court order to the same effect.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbar,

You're waiting to expose to the kids until you're living separately?


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Pbar,
> 
> You're waiting to expose to the kids until you're living separately?


You mean, expose AXW and posOM?


Pb.


----------



## zillard

What has been told to the kids re the D? EAs? latest posOM?


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> What has been told to the kids re the D? EAs? latest posOM?


Sounds like she's really hurting them.

I never want to be in the position of lying to my children to protect a cheater.

It makes you a silent co-conspirator.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> What has been told to the kids re the D? EAs? latest posOM?


As far as divorce is concerned... We haven't talked about it much. They haven't really asked much about it. It's obvious that AXW and I are "separated" and starting to go our own ways. They do know it's likely to happen. I haven't yet told them that I filed the petition. All the professional advise I was given was to not tell them details, until the details are final.

When it comes to the EAs and posOM... Again, they haven't asked, and I haven't told them. Again, all the professional advice I was given was that it's not really my place to tell them those details. And I agree. If they ask, I will not lie and I will not put down AXW in front of them.

I don't know what AXW has told them, but if she's following her MO, I suspect it's not much. whether they know what's going on, or not, the kids still refer to him as, "Mom's friend from work."



Conrad said:


> Sounds like she's really hurting them.
> 
> I never want to be in the position of lying to my children to protect a cheater.
> 
> It makes you a silent co-conspirator.


I hate it. I won't lie to them. But at the same time, I can't just tell them, either, without looking like a petty jerk who's just trying to get back her through the kids.

All I can do is not tell them, which feels almost as bad as outright lying.

Sucks.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

I almost forgot...



> My attorney and I are still waiting for you and your lawyer to schedule the 4-way conference you requested. I am not okay with further delays.
> 
> If we hear nothing before this weekend, I will instruct my attorney to start moving the process forward without you.


...sent it early this morning.


Pb.


----------



## caladan

Conrad said:


> Sounds like she's really hurting them.
> 
> I never want to be in the position of lying to my children to protect a cheater.
> 
> It makes you a silent co-conspirator.


Really?

How on earth is it better screw up a parent's relationship with their kid than be a "silent co-conspirator"? 

C'mon, don't try and justify your desire for veangance over a wayward spouse with an altruistic need to "tell your kids the truth".

I would never EVER tell my kids about a breakup due to infidelity. I simply don't see how it would help them in anyway, and by the time they're old enough to handle it, well let the party who indulged be the one to share as they see fit.

Sorry if I come across as harsh, but for me the kids have greater importance if a marriage ends, than any need to absolve myself of being a "silent co-conspirator".


----------



## Pbartender

caladan said:


> Really?
> 
> How on earth is it better screw up a parent's relationship with their kid than be a "silent co-conspirator"?
> 
> C'mon, don't try and justify your desire for veangance over a wayward spouse with an altruistic need to "tell your kids the truth".
> 
> I would never EVER tell my kids about a breakup due to infidelity. I simply don't see how it would help them in anyway, and by the time they're old enough to handle it, well let the party who indulged be the one to share as they see fit.
> 
> Sorry if I come across as harsh, but for me the kids have greater importance if a marriage ends, than any need to absolve myself of being a "silent co-conspirator".


I think Conrad's point is that it's a ****ty spot to be put in...

As you say, telling the kids will do nothing but ruin their relationship with the other spouse... It's using the kids as a weapon.

On the other hand, not telling them feels akin to lying and a breach of trust.

It's feels like a no-win situation.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

caladan said:


> Really?
> 
> How on earth is it better screw up a parent's relationship with their kid than be a "silent co-conspirator"?
> 
> C'mon, don't try and justify your desire for veangance over a wayward spouse with an altruistic need to "tell your kids the truth".
> 
> I would never EVER tell my kids about a breakup due to infidelity. I simply don't see how it would help them in anyway, and by the time they're old enough to handle it, well let the party who indulged be the one to share as they see fit.
> 
> Sorry if I come across as harsh, but for me the kids have greater importance if a marriage ends, than any need to absolve myself of being a "silent co-conspirator".


Unless you keep everyone else in the dark about the reasons for divorce, kids will eventually overhear something or put two and two together. 

If the betrayed spouse has misled them in any way, this will likely damage the relationship and trust between child and parent. There will be resentment that they found out from someone else. That their parent felt they could not be upfront with them (in an age appropriate manner, of course). 

So and so knows but you couldn't even tell ME!?! 

Being honest about the reasons for divorce (again, age appropriate) is not bad mouthing the other spouse. Yes, it may affect their relationship, but would you jeopardize your own relationship with you kids in order to protect their relationship with the other parent? That relationship is theirs to maintain, not yours. 

It is possible to be open without being derogatory.


----------



## Conrad

Well said Z.

Lying/covering for a wayward doesn't protect children at all.

It's simply another manifestation of codependence.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> As you say, telling the kids will do nothing but ruin their relationship with the other spouse... It's using the kids as a weapon.


They already hurt that relationship by cheating... on the family.

It is only using the kids as a weapon if you have malicious intent and fail to do it in a respectful manner. 

Telling the kids to get back at DS is wrong.


----------



## caladan

zillard said:


> Unless you keep everyone else in the dark about the reasons for divorce, kids will eventually overhear something or put two and two together.
> 
> If the betrayed spouse has misled them in any way, this will likely damage the relationship and trust between child and parent. There will be resentment that they found out from someone else. That their parent felt they could not be upfront with them (in an age appropriate manner, of course).
> 
> So and so knows but you couldn't even tell ME!?!
> 
> Being honest about the reasons for divorce (again, age appropriate) is not bad mouthing the other spouse. Yes, it may affect their relationship, but would you jeopardize your own relationship with you kids in order to protect their relationship with the other parent? That relationship is theirs to maintain, not yours.
> 
> It is possible to be open without being derogatory.


I want to hear how you plan to communicate to your 13 year old that the family is breaking up because her mother/father shagged some other person. Please let me know how it can be said in a way that will be nice and truthful yet will keep the respect going.

It's teenagers we're talking about here. I have no desire to have my kids call their mom a "s.lag" (yes, I have seen it happen).

And I disagree about it being codependent - the bird has flown the coop, where does the codependence come from?

I'm also curious about this mindset about some child being upset because he/she wasn't informed that their parent was sleeping around, if it were my folks, I certainly will be quite uninterested in knowing that much detail.


----------



## caladan

zillard said:


> They already hurt that relationship by cheating... on the family.
> 
> It is only using the kids as a weapon if you have malicious intent and fail to do it in a respectful manner.
> 
> Telling the kids to get back at DS is wrong.


Cheating ON THEIR SPOUSE. Not their family. Please separate the two.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> They already hurt that relationship by cheating... on the family.
> 
> It is only using the kids as a weapon if you have malicious intent and fail to do it in a respectful manner.
> 
> Telling the kids to get back at DS is wrong.


Telling them the truth when they're hurting - so they can reconcile their pain - is the right thing to do.


----------



## zillard

Here is an example from my thread. D7 was to the point where she was angry with me, solely, "for deciding the split up the family". Because we had only given her vague reasons for divorce (unhappy together, etc), her mother was basically gone and it was easier than believing her mother could basically abandon her.

"Sometimes adults decide they want different things in life than they used to want. Your mommy has decided she doesn't want to be with me, and I respect her and love her, so that is what we are doing." 

I was open about it being her choice, her feelings toward me that had changed, and that she is still loved and respected. 

At 7 she is too young for any talk of an affair. But that will happen in time.


----------



## ReGroup

Their doesn't need to be any name calling... "D13, your mother has decided that its in her best interest to pursue a relationship with another man. I wanted to work on our marriage but she is choosing otherwise."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

caladan said:


> Cheating ON THEIR SPOUSE. Not their family. Please separate the two.


I disagree. 

A typical family unit is parent + parent + kids. Bringing a third party into the mix behind everyone's backs is betraying the entire unit.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> "Sometimes adults decide they want different things in life than they used to want. Your mommy has decided she doesn't want to be with me, and I respect her and love her, so that is what we are doing."


And I had that sort of talk (with different verbiage for a different age) with the kids earlier on, after we were separated and when we were just beginning to get serious about the actual divorce.

That, however, was long before AXW started semi-openly dating posOM... which was the trigger for me actually filing.


Pb.


----------



## caladan

zillard said:


> I disagree.
> 
> A typical family unit is parent + parent + kids. Bringing a third party into the mix behind everyone's backs is betraying the entire unit.


Really? So just to clarify - did the kids break up with their parent over this third party? Or was it the parents that split from each other?

The kids weren't betrayed by the cheating, one parent was.


----------



## caladan

ReGroup said:


> Their doesn't need to be any name calling... "D13, your mother has decided that its in her best interest to pursue a relationship with another man. I wanted to work on our marriage but she is choosing otherwise."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excellent. 

As different from exposing the affair to one's kids. I fail to see any positives in that. The "truth" isn't always the wise decision


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> That, however, was long before AXW started semi-openly dating posOM... which was the trigger for me actually filing.
> 
> Pb.


And the kids will likely resent her for not being open about the dating too. 

I'm reading a book right now about dating as a single father. It includes many examples of children very hurt - to the point of moving in with the other parent - because they were not informed about dating beforehand. When they have to figure it out themselves or from an outside party they feel as though they are not trusted or valued.


----------



## caladan

Conrad said:


> Telling them the truth when they're hurting - so they can reconcile their pain - is the right thing to do.


Ok, so how much truth do you actually tell your kids, since the truth is so "reconciling"?

When they're hurting as kids and wish they were never born, do you inform them who it was that probably initiated the sex that most likely led to their conception? Do you in the spirit of full disclosure also throw in the exact styles that were used during said sex? Do you perhaps advise who climaxed and who didn't?


----------



## zillard

caladan said:


> Really? So just to clarify - *did the kids break up with their parent over this third party?* Or was it the parents that split from each other?
> 
> The kids weren't betrayed by the cheating, one parent was.


Please separate the betrayal from the breaking up. They are two different incidents. Sometimes they are concurrent, sometimes not. 

When a DS misses a child's school event, bedtime, morning time, etc because they are off with posOM/W, that is exactly cheating on the kid.


----------



## zillard

caladan said:


> Ok, so how much truth do you actually tell your kids, since the truth is so "reconciling"?
> 
> When they're hurting as kids and wish they were never born, do you inform them who it was that probably initiated the sex that most likely led to their conception? Do you in the spirit of full disclosure also throw in the exact styles that were used during said sex? Do you perhaps advise who climaxed and who didn't?


Seriously hoping all that was rhetorical.

"age appropriate"


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Please separate the betrayal from the breaking up. They are two different incidents. Sometimes they are concurrent, sometimes not.
> 
> When a DS misses a child's school event, bedtime, morning time, etc because they are off with posOM/W, that is exactly cheating on the kid.


No way to say this better.

When a parent is suddenly absent when they've always been there and there is pain in the child's eyes because they're let down time and again.

Of course, the best thing to do is to lie and cover for the sleazy cheater.


----------



## caladan

Conrad said:


> No way to say this better.
> 
> When a parent is suddenly absent when they've always been there and there is pain in the child's eyes because they're let down time and again.
> 
> Of course, the best thing to do is to lie and cover for the sleazy cheater.


Absent? How is the parent absent?

You co-parent. Both parents are present, just not at the same time mostly.

I don't see how informing a child that the parent he/she so obviously loves so much is a cheat becomes this great and noble action of selflessness and truthfulness.

Not buying this brother.


----------



## Conrad

caladan said:


> Absent? How is the parent absent?
> 
> You co-parent. Both parents are present, just not at the same time mostly.
> 
> I don't see how informing a child that the parent he/she so obviously loves so much is a cheat becomes this great and noble action of selflessness and truthfulness.
> 
> Not buying this brother.


Have you read Voltaire's thread?

The pain on the kids face when Mom is gone out banging posOM and the child asks to spend time with her/him. "None of your business" when the kid asks where she's going or why she's out all night.

Yeah, no problem there.

No sale over here either.


----------



## zillard

caladan said:


> Absent? How is the parent absent?


Absent because of the affair, before the breakup.


----------



## GutPunch

caladan said:


> Absent? How is the parent absent?
> 
> You co-parent. Both parents are present, just not at the same time mostly.
> 
> I don't see how informing a child that the parent he/she so obviously loves so much is a cheat becomes this great and noble action of selflessness and truthfulness.
> 
> Not buying this brother.


You don't want to buy it.

I am also certain my wife doesn't buy it either.


----------



## caladan

zillard said:


> Absent because of the affair, before the breakup.


Hang on - an absent parent indicates bad parenting, not an affair. I can't comment on bad parenting, haven't given it much thought.


----------



## caladan

GutPunch said:


> You don't want to buy it.
> 
> I am also certain my wife doesn't buy it either.


Not really concerned about your wife tbh. The kids on the other hand....

Just to be clear (the fact that you may be comparing me to a cheating wife sends chills down my spine), I was also cheated on. She did try to reconcile, but I wasn't having it.

However, my ex NEVER, not once ignored the kids. Either I was with them, or she was. I see no reason to drag her through the mud in front of our kids just because I was hurt by her actions.


----------



## Conrad

Caladan,

If you've read any of my posts, you know I believe in telling the people close to us things when they're ready to listen.

That's usually when they ask a question.

I would never lie to cover the tracks of a cheater.

I know so many who do.

If Punch's kids never ask? No reason to say a word.

Yet, the way Pbar's wife is whoring around, his kids are likely asking now. And, if they aren't asking now, they soon will.

I don't think it's in anyone's best interests for him to lie to cover for her.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Have you read Voltaire's thread?


Or this thread, for that matter...

Last weekend, AXW left for work On Friday morning and didn't come back home until 8:30 am on Saturday morning. She stopped by long enough to shower and change clothes, and then went back to work Saturday morning... She didn't come home until late Sunday afternoon.

She didn't tell anyone where she was going or how long she was going to be gone. My kids were obviously at least a little bit disappointed, worried and concerned... but they weren't asking.

How do you deal with a situation like that?



caladan said:


> Hang on - an absent parent indicates bad parenting, not an affair. I can't comment on bad parenting, haven't given it much thought.


Which is exactly why I've been keeping track of _when_ she's around and isn't, but not _why_.


Pb.


----------



## GutPunch

caladan said:


> Not really concerned about your wife tbh. The kids on the other hand....
> 
> Just to be clear (the fact that you may be comparing me to a cheating wife sends chills down my spine), I was also cheated on. She did try to reconcile, but I wasn't having it.
> 
> However, my ex NEVER, not once ignored the kids. Either I was with them, or she was. I see no reason to drag her through the mud in front of our kids just because I was hurt by her actions.


HAHA Sorry! Don't know your story. Thought you were a cheating wife.


----------



## zillard

caladan said:


> Hang on - an absent parent indicates bad parenting, not an affair. I can't comment on bad parenting, haven't given it much thought.


When the bad parenting starts because of an affair, it is cheating the kids.

Even when there is no bad parenting, if a breakup of the family happens due to an affair it also cheats the kids.


----------



## GutPunch

zillard said:


> When the bad parenting starts because of an affair, it is cheating the kids.
> 
> Even when there is no bad parenting, if a breakup of the family happens due to an affair it also cheats the kids.


Agreed


----------



## SadSamIAm

caladan said:


> Ok, so how much truth do you actually tell your kids, since the truth is so "reconciling"?
> 
> When they're hurting as kids and wish they were never born, do you inform them who it was that probably initiated the sex that most likely led to their conception? Do you in the spirit of full disclosure also throw in the exact styles that were used during said sex? Do you perhaps advise who climaxed and who didn't?


What would those things have to do with your children's lives? The situation they are in?

The affair affects them. The family is not whole any longer. The spouse cheated and took this away from them.

How does being conceived 'doggie style' affect them in any way?

Caladen, did you cheat on your spouse? Are you trying to tell yourself that the cheating didn't affect your kids?


----------



## caladan

SadSamIAm said:


> What would those things have to do with your children's lives? The situation they are in?
> 
> The affair affects them. The family is not whole any longer. The spouse cheated and took this away from them.
> 
> How does being conceived 'doggie style' affect them in any way?
> 
> Caladen, did you cheat on your spouse? Are you trying to tell yourself that the cheating didn't affect your kids?


Hasty. Inconclusive. And extremely annoying, as well as disrespectful. One expects better from an old-timer like you.

Read the entire thread, I hinted at my story.


My reference to the process of conception was to call out the lack of logic of the absolute "truth" policy that some seemed to think was necessary.


----------



## caladan

See, that post from SamSamIAm just emphasizes my point. There's a weird cult-like attitude on here, somewhat unhealthy, where there's an expected behaviour when you've been cheated on. You must mourn in a certain manner, investigate after a certain fashion, and finally, treat your ex in a certain manner. As much as possible, you must out/demaean/disgrace/embarass/humiliate your ex. If you stray from this expected path, just a little, you get really quickly pilloried. You get accused of being codependent, or possibly being a cheat. 

I'm sorry, I don't play this weird victim game. I've mourned, I'm over it. Life goes on. I still have two young children who benefit immensely from the presence and attention of both parents. 

I accept that Pb's missus is acting up, and not being a mother. I had no such experience with my ex. When the time comes and the kids are old enough to ask, I'll explain my part in the process. She can decide whether or not to tell them her part, not my business, not my call.


----------



## Chuck71

When kids in the junior high age group ask what is going on....they usually already know. The want to know why it happened. Children today are forced and encouraged to grow up too fast (media, education, etc). The BS must also weigh in the factors of what has the cheater already mentioned to them....verbally and covertly. 

Children, by nature, are very curious. I would sit on the stairs and listen to mine talk...and argue. A lot of times they know more than you think. Do not think they have not been in class and their friend tells them their mommy and daddy are divorcing. If that child thinks their parents are too, you can bet who they will hang around with on the playground and at lunch.

Every child is a case by case thing. But for someone in junior high, most already would have a firm grasp on things. They know the answer......it's the questions they want to know. The last year I taught in "middle school" seven girls were pregnant. Yes they are growing up faster than most realize.

Just my two cents


----------



## K.C.

There is a set way of doing things put forward because it has worked for so many.

Take Conrad for example, he gives imo, fantastic advice and advocates all this stuff but no where does he promote being mean or try to humiliate. It is an approach that favours truth and disclosure sure but if the wayward is so happy with what they have chosen that wouldn't matter right?

If you were able to do it a different way and are happy in yourself, fantastic, different methods for different people. Many of us though became so dependent on our SO, that we need the structure to disentangle ourselves. Many of the guys in that situation have been cheated on but arrived saying the exact same things as the OP, it is just a case of ruling infidelity out so you know what battle you are fighting.


----------



## Pbartender

caladan said:


> My reference to the process of conception was to call out the lack of logic of the absolute "truth" policy that some seemed to think was necessary.


You're using slippery slope arguments, though, Caladan.

No one is saying that kids need to be told the gruesome details... But they certainly should not be lied to.

My kids are teenagers. They already know we "separated" because we simply weren't getting along and couldn't work it out. I can tell them that I filed for divorce, and that divorce WILL happen.

IF THEY ASK, I can tell them that she hasn't been talking to me. IF THEY ASK, I can tell them that their mother is dating another man. IF THEY ASK, I can tell them who he is.

They deserve to know that much about what's going on, if they want to.

But, even though I have enough evidence to make a good guess, I will not speculate as to what they do together, even if they ask... I would tell them, "I don't know," and that too would be the truth. I can refer them to AXW, and she can them, if she wants to.


Pb.


----------



## caladan

Pbartender said:


> You're using slippery slope arguments, though, Caladan.
> 
> No one is saying that kids need to be told the gruesome details... But they certainly should not be lied to.
> 
> My kids are teenagers. They already know we "separated" because we simply weren't getting along and couldn't work it out. I can tell them that I filed for divorce, and that divorce WILL happen.
> 
> IF THEY ASK, I can tell them that she hasn't been talking to me. IF THEY ASK, I can tell them that their mother is dating another man. IF THEY ASK, I can tell them who he is.
> 
> They deserve to know that much about what's going on, if they want to.
> 
> But, even though I have enough evidence to make a good guess, I will not speculate as to what they do together, even if they ask... I would tell them, "I don't know," and that too would be the truth. I can refer them to AXW, and she can them, if she wants to.
> 
> 
> Pb.


Hey PB.
Just to clarify really quickly - not every STBX carries on the way yours currently is. Probably if mine did so I would have a totally different view of things. Your situation makes a lot of sense, I think you've handled things amazingly. I wish I had your common sense and stability.

I however have "some" issue with Conrad CONSTANTLY goading you, pushing you, prodding you. I just re-read the entire thread and it's amazing, it's one niggle after another. Good heavens, the guy is like a nagging wife, if you're not proceeding with your divorce the way he wants, then you're "staying at home to watch the kids while she parties"? 

If your kids are truly old and curious enough to ask questions, pray tell me, why don't they ask their mom? Since when are you the one to tell them what's going on between their mom and some other guy? 

Here's the answer to the kids when they ask about their mom's behavior: "I don't really know".

That's not codependence, that's not lying to cover someone else, that's simply staying out of other people's business.

Bottom line - you and I are saying the same thing. Some others seem to be on a more intense route, which I simply can't identify with.


----------



## Conrad

caladan said:


> I however have "some" issue with Conrad CONSTANTLY goading you, pushing you, prodding you.


Then talk to me.


----------



## Conrad

K.C. said:


> There is a set way of doing things put forward because it has worked for so many.
> 
> Take Conrad for example, he gives imo, fantastic advice and advocates all this stuff but no where does he promote being mean or try to humiliate. It is an approach that favours truth and disclosure sure but if the wayward is so happy with what they have chosen that wouldn't matter right?
> 
> If you were able to do it a different way and are happy in yourself, fantastic, different methods for different people. Many of us though became so dependent on our SO, that we need the structure to disentangle ourselves. Many of the guys in that situation have been cheated on but arrived saying the exact same things as the OP, it is just a case of ruling infidelity out so you know what battle you are fighting.


People personalize so much.

The real eternal peace-giving discovery of this process is that someone would not "personalize" Conrad's advice to others.

People should make their own decisions.

As you might guess, I've seen this process from many different angles and have spent months in emotional agony over issues of my own creation.

When I hear Voltaire, Pbar, etc. speak of children who notice and suffer due to an absent parents' whoring around, I'm going to encourage them not to cover and lie for a cheater.

However, mileage may vary.

If people want to let their kids suffer and become a silent co-conspirator for a sleazy cheating spouse?

It's their kids they are screwing up.

Not my problem.


----------



## K.C.

Hmm I may have got my threads in a twist with the last bit of my previous post but err yeah anyway.


----------



## Conrad

K.C. said:


> Hmm I may have got my threads in a twist with the last bit of my previous post but err yeah anyway.


I agree.

Yeah, anyway.


----------



## Pbartender

caladan said:


> I however have "some" issue with Conrad CONSTANTLY goading you, pushing you, prodding you. I just re-read the entire thread and it's amazing, it's one niggle after another. Good heavens, the guy is like a nagging wife, if you're not proceeding with your divorce the way he wants, then you're "staying at home to watch the kids while she parties"?


It's Conrad's way of making sure we don't soften up and fall back on our co-dependent ways of giving in... We need to make sure that we're setting our boundaries, that we're defending them, that we are asking for what we want and finding ways to get it. It's his way of helping us to not forget about our own self-confidence and self-respect.

Besides, calmly dealing with him is good practice for calmly dealing with a crazy-making spouse.



caladan said:


> If your kids are truly old and curious enough to ask questions, pray tell me, why don't they ask their mom?


The short answer is... they probably have a strong suspicion and are afraid to ask, because they are pretty sure what answer they'll get, and it's an answer that will kill any remaining hope they might have of us reconciling.

They haven't been asking me yet, either.



caladan said:


> Since when are you the one to tell them what's going on between their mom and some other guy?
> 
> Here's the answer to the kids when they ask about their mom's behavior: "I don't really know".
> 
> That's not codependence, that's not lying to cover someone else, that's simply staying out of other people's business.
> 
> Bottom line - you and I are saying the same thing. Some others seem to be on a more intense route, which I simply can't identify with.


I think that we're all actually on the same page, here... We just got stuck on semantics and let the rhetoric get a little out of hand.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Telling someone you don't know when you do know is a lie.

And, they will find out you are lying.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Telling someone you don't know when you do know is a lie.


But what do I _really_ know?


I know she's gone out to dinner, movies, concerts, etc. with him... Or, at least, that's what she's told me, and there's some pictures to prove it.
I know they've kissed. I heard her talk about it to her friends, when she thought I wasn't listening.
I know they text each other incessantly.
I know she drives him back and forth to work on a regular basis.
I know all her friends at work are encouraging the relationship.
I know she bought him a Valentine's Day present.
I know that she's bought new, "sexy", underwear since she met him.
I know that's she now on birth control.
I know that she lies about where she goes out, and who she goes out with.
I know that she often goes out and doesn't come home until the next day.

And that's all stuff I will feel perfectly comfortable finding a way to talk about with my kids, if they start asking.

But I do not specifically know anything else about what she does with him when she goes out with him... And I won't speculate. If they ask about whether she's having sex with him, for example, I can honestly tell them, "She might be... It certainly looks that way... But I don't know for certain."

And I don't feel the need to push that information on them before they're ready to hear it.


Pb.


----------



## caladan

Conrad said:


> Telling someone you don't know when you do know is a lie.
> 
> And, they will find out you are lying.


I'm sorry - what do you know? You know she's hanging out with some fella. You believe she's probably shagging him (unless you're creepily still monitoring the activities of an obvious STBX, you don't know for sure).

And yet... you want to expose said ex to the kids.


----------



## GutPunch

Conrad said:


> Telling someone you don't know when you do know is a lie.
> 
> And, they will find out you are lying.




And, they will never forgive you for it.


----------



## Conrad

caladan said:


> I'm sorry - what do you know? You know she's hanging out with some fella. You believe she's probably shagging him (unless you're creepily still monitoring the activities of an obvious STBX, you don't know for sure).
> 
> And yet... you want to expose said ex to the kids.


I'm sorry you can't see it.


----------



## Chuck71

Yeah....that Conrad!

he prefers to tell you what you need to hear

not what you want to hear

Conrad....you prick!!! 

LOL


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> I'm sorry you can't see it.


I think what's Caladan's trying to get at is that telling someone you know when you don't is also a lie.

And, they will find out you are lying.

And, they will never forgive you for it. 


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> I think what's Caladan's trying to get at is that telling someone you know when you don't is also a lie.
> 
> And, they will find out you are lying.
> 
> And, they will never forgive you for it.
> 
> 
> Pb.


Ok... if I'm reading this correctly.

Out all night - returning at 8:30 - constant communication...

Yeah, no way to know.


----------



## Chuck71

Pb-New panties-red flag size of Mali

BC pills-red flag size of Russia

chauffeuring him to and from work, returning in morning

red flag size of Jupiter


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> Pb-New panties-red flag size of Mali
> 
> BC pills-red flag size of Russia
> 
> chauffeuring him to and from work, returning in morning
> 
> red flag size of Jupiter


Yeah, no way to know.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Pbartender said:


> But what do I _really_ know?
> 
> 
> I know she's gone out to dinner, movies, concerts, etc. with him... Or, at least, that's what she's told me, and there's some pictures to prove it.
> I know they've kissed. I heard her talk about it to her friends, when she thought I wasn't listening.
> I know they text each other incessantly.
> I know she drives him back and forth to work on a regular basis.
> I know all her friends at work are encouraging the relationship.
> I know she bought him a Valentine's Day present.
> I know that she's bought new, "sexy", underwear since she met him.
> I know that's she now on birth control.
> I know that she lies about where she goes out, and who she goes out with.
> I know that she often goes out and doesn't come home until the next day.
> 
> And that's all stuff I will feel perfectly comfortable finding a way to talk about with my kids, if they start asking.
> 
> But I do not specifically know anything else about what she does with him when she goes out with him... And I won't speculate. If they ask about whether she's having sex with him, for example, I can honestly tell them, "She might be... It certainly looks that way... But I don't know for certain."
> 
> And I don't feel the need to push that information on them before they're ready to hear it.
> 
> 
> Pb.


You don't need to see it happening to know that it does.

I have a bunch of friends who have been married for many years. I don't 'know' that they have ever had sex (as in haven't seen it), but I think they have.


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> Pb-New panties-red flag size of Mali
> 
> BC pills-red flag size of Russia
> 
> chauffeuring him to and from work, returning in morning
> 
> red flag size of Jupiter





Conrad said:


> Yeah, no way to know.


You are right, but... 

As teenagers, I can talk to my kids about those red flags, and they can come to the same conclusions on their own, without me guessing (albeit almost certainly guessing right) on what those red flags mean.

Because, let's be honest, here... Consider my own Red Flags!


I'm working out to get into better shape.
I've bought some new clothes to look a little nicer.
I'm going out and occasionally returning in the wee hours of the morning.
I've got new friends -- many of them female -- that I text with and call more often than I used to.
I've taken a couple of women out for drinks or dinner or a movie.
One of them even kissed me.
But I haven't slept with anyone yet.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

SadSamIAm said:


> You don't need to see it happening to know that it does.
> 
> I have a bunch of friends who have been married for many years. I don't 'know' that they have ever had sex (as in haven't seen it), but I think they have.


But is it a detail that I really need to spell out for the kids?


Pb.


----------



## zillard

caladan said:


> I'm sorry - what do you know? You know she's hanging out with some fella. You believe she's probably shagging him (unless you're creepily still monitoring the activities of an obvious STBX, you don't know for sure).
> 
> And yet... you want to expose said ex to the kids.


I don't think anyone here is suggesting running up to the kids and going "hey, hey guess what!! You mom is sleeping around". 

And definitely not suggesting having a conversation about sexual positions, etc. 

PB knows his wife has had an affair. If not physical, multiple EAs. He knows she has cheated. 

I'm suggesting if and when any discussion with the kids goes anywhere near that subject or reasons for the split: 

Don't skirt around it. 
Be open and honest. 
Don't give more detail than is necessary. Obviously
Be age appropriate.
Don't be derogatory.
Be respectful.
Direct questions about stbx's motives/feelings to her.


----------



## Conrad

I think it's more than sufficient to say she's dating - when they ask what she's doing.

That's exposing her behavior.

She'd rather spend the time she used to spend with them with posOM.

They'll see it.

You tell them you don't know what she's doing?

Co-conspirator


----------



## SadSamIAm

Pbartender said:


> But is it a detail that I really need to spell out for the kids?
> 
> 
> Pb.


If they ask, tell the kids that their mom is dating someone else. That is all that needs to be said.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad, you seem to be saying two different things. This...



Conrad said:


> I think it's more than sufficient to say she's dating - when they ask what she's doing.
> 
> That's exposing her behavior.
> 
> She'd rather spend the time she used to spend with them with posOM.
> 
> They'll see it.


Is exactly what I'm proposing to do. Because, that is what I *DO* know. And they CAN figure out the rest themselves.

But whenever someone suggests not going farther than that...



Conrad said:


> You tell them you don't know what she's doing?
> 
> Co-conspirator


It sounds like you're contradicting yourself.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

I'm not sure why this is so difficult.

I just don't advocate any cover stories.

You'd be surprised how many betrayed spouses cowardly cover up for their cheating spouses - because letting the kids know they are seeing someone else will "make them mad" or some other bullshix.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> I'm not sure why this is so difficult.
> 
> I just don't advocate any cover stories.


Who ever said anything about cover stories? Does anything I'm planning on telling (or not telling) my kids even remotely equate to a cover story?


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Who ever said anything about cover stories? Is anything I'm planning on telling (or not telling) my kids even remotely equate to a cover story?
> 
> 
> Pb.


I fear we're talking past each other.

Good luck.

If you take a look at Voltaire's thread, you'll see what I mean

I think.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> I fear we're talking past each other.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure we are.

I think I understand what you mean by the cover stories... Simply put, people will often lie to spare the feelings of a loved one, when it's better to tell them the truth and let them deal with the pain of it.

Not telling the kids about things nasty things AXW has done (or I myself have done, for that matter) or pretending that I don't know about those things is precisely the sort of thing you're talking about there.

And I agree.

But the other end of the spectrum is telling the kids that AXW has done nasty things that I can't be certain she did... Even if those guesses are based on red flags that I do know about.

What I can do is honestly and respectfully tell the kids the things I do know, when they ask. I can share all the clues and red flags I've found, if they ask. And then I can let them draw their own conclusions (which, at their age, will almost certainly be the same) based on that information.


Pb.


----------



## Chuck71

Pb-I am very certain D13 knows more than most, probably even you, realize. At her age, they absorb things like a sponge. I taught junior high and I had some girls in class more mature than many of the female teachers around me. But we all remember puberty (EEK). The ones I spoke with as intern and as back-up counselor (regular one was retiring and used sick days) in junior high...they already know what you are about to tell them. Accepting it is their main issue (sound familiar?). Once it gets rolling....the students stop you in mid-sentence and finish it for you. Their main concern is the questioning.


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> Pb-I am very certain D13 knows more than most, probably even you, realize. At her age, they absorb things like a sponge. I taught junior high and I had some girls in class more mature than many of the female teachers around me. But we all remember puberty (EEK). The ones I spoke with as intern and as back-up counselor (regular one was retiring and used sick days) in junior high...they already know what you are about to tell them. Accepting it is their main issue (sound familiar?). Once it gets rolling....the students stop you in mid-sentence and finish it for you. Their main concern is the questioning.


Yeah... that's sort of what I'm expecting. It just hasn't started rolling yet. I'd like to be at least a little bit prepared for it, once it inevitably does.


Pb.


----------



## Chuck71

Talking to a teen (only had step-son) is like preparing a lesson plan. The whole thing goes the way you want it maybe 5% of the time. The first time I had to tell him about breaking up and all the fun stuff teens go through...when I was finished, I wanted tequila and a pack of unfiltered lucky strikes.


----------



## Pbartender

_"The tactical result of an engagement forms the base for new strategic decisions because victory or defeat in a battle changes the situation to such a degree that no human acumen is able to see beyond the first battle. In this sense one should understand Napoleon's saying: 'I have never had a plan of operations.' Therefore no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force."_ *- Field Marshall Helmuth Carl Bernard Graf von Moltke*




Pb.


----------



## Chuck71

The quotes bring back memories (undergrad history major but if you asked me now my major in those days was....registration)! Wasn't it Napoleon (I know Hitler in WW2) who invaded Russia and for some reason thought their winters were like Key West?


----------



## Pbartender

S14 got suspended from school for a week... He punched a kid in the head for suggesting that he date a particular girl.

It was AXW's day off from work, and she went and picked him up without letting me know anything about it. I was working in the tunnels, and got a message from the Dean after the fact (he couldn't get a hold of her right away, either), but by the time I'd called back, she'd already picked him up.

As usual, she avoided me at home, and didn't say a word about it. Later, while she was driving posOM home from work, I pulled S14 aside so we could talk about what happened...

"I don't want to talk about it," is all he'd say... over and over again. Upon my insistence that that was not acceptable, he threatened to text AXW...

*S14:* I'll text AXW and tell her you won't stop pestering me about it!
*PB:* And what will she do, when you tell her?
*S14:* She'll talk to you about it!
*PB:* Really? That doesn't scare me. I'm not cool with you trying to threaten me with your mother. She hasn't talked to me in months, D14.
*S14:* 
*PB:* That's part of the reason why she and I are getting a divorce.
*S14:* 
*PB:* Hiding from your problems won't make them go away... They only get worse. I'm your father. I care about you, and I worry about you when I see you getting into trouble like this. I want to know whats going on, and help you find a way to figure this out, if I can.

So, he still wouldn't talk about it.

Fine... I confiscated his LEGOs (AXW already grounded him from TV and video games... without telling me that she had), and told him that he could take all the time he needed, but he wouldn't get them back until after we talked about how and why he got in trouble at school.

*S14:* I HATE YOU! DON'T EVER TALK TO ME AGAIN!
*PB:* I'm not cool with you shouting at me.
*S14:* I hate you. Don't talk to me ever.
*PB:* Okay... But you'll have no Legos until you tell what happened at school today.
*S14:* WHAAAH! I'm just not ready to talk.
*PB:* That's fine. When will you be ready?
*S14:* Six months. 
*PB:* All right. You can have you're Legos in six months.
*S14:* WHAAAH! Maybe one month.
*PB:* Look... Take as long as you like. Your Legos will wait for you. When you want them back and you're ready to talk, come find me, and you'll get them back lickety-split.
*S14:* okay.

Ho. Ly. Cow.

I'm not liking this turn of events.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

Possibly acting out due to stress at home. When you do talk bring up that you understand the changes have been hard, confusing, etc and its normal and fine to feel anger or whatever toward you. 

But it is not ok to express that anger in ways that hurt other people. 

Suggest healthy ways he can express it. Teach him to shoot. Throw rocks at some bottles. punching bag, etc.


----------



## Chuck71

Can't you have the office call both parents when their child is in trouble?


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Possibly acting out due to stress at home. When you do talk bring up that you understand the changes have been hard, confusing, etc and its normal and fine to feel anger or whatever toward you.
> 
> But it is not ok to express that anger in ways that hurt other people.
> 
> Suggest healthy ways he can express it. Teach him to shoot. Throw rocks at some bottles. punching bag, etc.


Well... It's something that's been a problem for a long time. He has high-functioning autism, and so he's always had a difficult time with social cues, and regulating his emotions.

So, yeah... That's all old hat for him and us and his school psychologist and social worker.

He'd been doing VERY well with it the last year or two... This is a BIG set back for him.

He wouldn't say about it, and insisted that the only reason he was angry was because I wouldn't stop pestering him about it... "Don't blame me for you being angry... I'm not cool with that."


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> Can't you have the office call both parents when their child is in trouble?


They did... I was just working in a place that was cell phone unfriendly, so I didn't get the call right away. At the time of the message, they couldn't contact AXW, either.

My beef is that she went and picked him up from school and set punishments for him, without letting me know that she had. I was about to ask for the afternoon off, until I called the dean up and talked to him about it... he was the one who told me she picked him up. And I learned about his punishments from S14 himself.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Had a little talk with each of the kids, so that they'd know what was going on...

We went over the reasons why AXW and I were having problems in general... We'd talked about that before. I let them both know that I had filed the first paperwork for the divorce a few weeks back, and that it was definitely going to happen. We talked about the specific reason I had decided to stop waiting and file... Because AXW was dating another guy.

They both knew she was dating. They both knew she was dating posOM. They said she told them when she invited posOM to go to that movie with them.

I don't think S14, with his autism, entirely understands what it means. He didn't really seem to care one way or the other about it. By the by, he and I talked about his fight at school, and it wasn't nearly as bad as he thought it was going to be.

D13, on the other hand, was pretty upset... She said she was angry and sad about it, but not really at anyone in particular (at least not that she'd admit). She's been talking to one or two of her other friends, whose parents had divorced, about it all, which isn't surprising. She didn't want to talk about it any more, so we just sat and hugged for at bit, and then watched some Doctor Who together.

I wish AXW could understand what she's doing to D13... I'm worried this will ruin their relationship. But really, there's not much I can (or should?) do, except be there for D13.

Urgh. I reconnected with AXW's best friend from college, whom I was also good friends with... we were the only two physics majors there at the time. Same story as MIL. They hadn't really spoken in years. When I told her what was going on, she said, "What??????? Is she on crack?? Okay - I can't take sides here. I Don't know her's. But that's crazy. They _[the kids]_ haven't met the boyfriend, have they? She's not being that dumb, is she?"

*sigh* :crazy: Yes. Yes, she is.

So, now it's spring break. AXW and the kids just left to go to a water park resort at Wisconsin Dells until Tuesday. D13 & S14 gave me lots of extra hugs before they left... It was a long goodbye. It's been quite a while, since I've hung out at home alone for that long. We'll see how it goes.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

Those talks with children are so rough, but I think are really important for them. 

Now you're home alone. Have some fun with it.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Now you're home alone. Have some fun with it.


Too bad I have to work tomorrow... And everybody I could go out and have fun with is out of town for spring break. 

Which reminds me... Remember Hot Blonde Mom and #3?

#3 invited HBM and her kids to go up to Michigan with him and his son for spring break ("as friends"). At about 11 pm last night, out of the blue, I get a text...

*HBM:* Hi Pbar! Thinkin about ya 

*PB:* Oh, hey! Hi HBM! How's Michigan?

*HBM:* We're having a blast... A little awkward at first. I have to look to make sure I'm only talking to you lmao!  _[She recently fubared a message she sent to me about #3, and accidentally sent it to #3 and a half dozen of her friends as well. Nothing scandalous in the message, but a little embarrassing for both of them.]_

*PB:* 

*HBM:* I apologized... of course he was being stubborn... But we had a blast today... Ill tell ya about it when I get back... Things have smoothed over I think... 

*HBM:* He's such a hard guy to read sometimes ugh

*PB:* Awesome... that's good to hear.

*PB:* Not about him being hard to read... but awesome things are smoothed over.

*HBM:* It is what it is... I hope you're well hunny bun

*PB:* Rough week... could have been better. I'll tell you all about it when you get back... But now you've got me smiling a little. 

*HBM:* We'll get together soon!

*PB:* I'll be looking forward to it.

*HBM:* Yay me too

Well, now...  "Thinkin about ya"? "hunny bun"? "We'll get together soon!"?

Un. Ex. Pected. :smthumbup:


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

I woke up this morning, rolled over in my big, empty bed... and I almost wished she was still there. Today is her birthday.

Oh, wait. Her birthday... That was the last time we made love.

Huh. I don't think I'm really missing _her_, right now, though it feels like it... I'm missing the sex. It's been a year, I'm antsy, and I think I'm just a little bit jealous that's she's getting some and I'm not. Typical guy, eh? 

I need to get laid.


Pb.


----------



## GutPunch

Pbartender said:


> I woke up this morning, rolled over in my big, empty bed... and I almost wished she was still there. Today is her birthday.
> 
> Oh, wait. Her birthday... That was the last time we made love.
> 
> Huh. I don't think I'm really missing _her_, right now, though it feels like it... I'm missing the sex. It's been a year, I'm antsy, and I think I'm just a little bit jealous that's she's getting some and I'm not. Typical guy, eh?
> 
> I need to get laid.
> 
> 
> Pb.


Yes, definitely see the upside to getting laid.


----------



## Chuck71

Tina Turner - Private Dancer [Official Music Video] - YouTube


----------



## zillard

A year. Ouch. 5 months here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

The manual override option still exists.


----------



## Pbartender

Okay, time to pull this all together...

Since AXW starting hunting men several months -- and especially since she started openly dating posOM -- I started getting out more, having a little bit of fun and meeting new people. I've got a social life again, I'm enjoying myself, and I'm getting back to feeling myself again.

Now, I haven't been actively looking for a girlfriend, by any means, but the natural byproduct is that women are showing interest in me. Thus far, I've gone on the occasional date with a few them -- coffee, dinner, drinks, a movie, etc... -- but nothing has really come from any of them... yet.

I'm certainly in no hurry to jump into a relationship, but sometimes events take us by surprise... HBM certainly shows a lot of potential. Unless something changes, we seem to be slowly, but steadily, headed that way. Before it gets that far, however, I've got a few things to think through...

*The Kids* They already know that AXW is dating, and who she's dating. They know I've been taking time to get out and have fun. I haven't talked to them about the possibility of me dating someone, yet. I'm thinking that under the current circumstances, maybe I should. I don't want to make the same mistakes about this that AXW has been.

*#3* We're friends. AXW stalked him, chased him and then made a move on him. He never discouraged her flirtations and attention, but he did turn her down, when she made her move. He and HBM had been "sort of seeing each other", until very recently. He still has feelings for her. and she is trying to keep their friendship in the face of the breakup. considering some of the conversations we've had lately, I'm feeling a little like the OM in an EA, at the moment. I don't want to do to him what he could have done to me... Even though in both situations, the relationships were/are effectively over.

*Me* I am ridiculously nervous about getting into a relationship... I know that I'm still healing emotionally. "Normal" interactions with women still feel a little strange to me. It's been a long time since I dated last -- more than 15 years. When I was dating, I was never very successful -- I was a shy, awkward, unathletic geek at the time. My wife is the only woman I've ever slept with... Only ever even kissed one other girl before I met her. I've got my nice-guy "exile" who's scared to pieces of getting it wrong and being rejected, and I've got my fixer "protector" perpetually telling me to make sure I'm completely ready and prepared before I dive in. But I know I'm going to make mistakes, and I know that's okay. I'll never be prepared enough to avoid every mistake... that sort of thinking is like a paralysis, that will keep me stuck here forever. I'm eventually going to need to get out there and make mistakes, and learn new habits so that a "normal" relationship doesn't feel so weird to me any more.

Oof. Lunch break's over... More later.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> considering some of the conversations we've had lately, I'm feeling a little like the OM in an EA, at the moment. I don't want to do to him what he could have done to me... Even though in both situations, the relationships were/are effectively over.


If she is still taking vacations with him, knowing how he feels, is it really effectively over? I know she said it was just as friends. Did he see it the same way?


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> If she is still taking vacations with him, knowing how he feels, is it really effectively over? I know she said it was just as friends. Did he see it the same way?


I suspect I'll find out all about it when, "Ill tell ya about it when I get back..."

But... A quick flashback...



Pbartender said:


> HBM starts telling me about how she's backing off from seeing #3, trying to get back to "just friends" with him. Turns out, she wanted to keep the relationship -- especially the physical relationship -- unobtrusive around her kids (she has a son in the same grade as his, and they're friends), and he was pushing it. Plus, he _really_ wants someone he can have more kids with, while she doesn't want more kids and can't have more kids. They both care for each other deeply, but they're not on the same page as far as the expectations for the relationship goes. She's backing things off, and he's being all nice-guy-codependent-clingy about it (It's almost fascinating to see it from the outside), and that's making her wonder if she needs to back off more.


...During that conversation, she mentioned the trip. From what I understand, he'd invited them before the break-up, and she just didn't cancel. I believe she was planning to use it as a "stress test" to see if he could handle just being friends.

So, I guess the answer is... From her professed point of view, the intimate relationship between them is over, and he knew that even if he might not have accepted it yet.

She's trying to figure out if he can pull himself back together so they can go back to being just friends or whether she has to essentially go 180 on him.

But, like I said... Sounds like I'll find out soon enough.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> Oof. Lunch break's over... More later.


Okay, a little more...

*More Me* I also worry a little that if I get into something more serious now, that I'd be doing it for the wrong reasons... The pride of proving to AXW that I can get a girlfriend, and without resorting to dating a co-worker... The satisfaction of the poetic justice at the prospect of "stealing" a woman from #3, the paper tiger alpha male... Because it's been a year, and I'm horny and lonely... That sort of stuff. I want to be certain that I'm doing it for myself, because I want to. Nothing more, nothing less.


Pb.


----------



## GutPunch

pbartender said:


> i suspect i'll find out all about it when, "ill tell ya about it when i get back..."
> 
> but... A quick flashback...
> 
> 
> 
> ...during that conversation, she mentioned the trip. From what i understand, he'd invited them before the break-up, and she just didn't cancel. I believe she was planning to use it as a "stress test" to see if he could handle just being friends.
> 
> So, i guess the answer is... From her professed point of view, the intimate relationship between them is over, and he knew that even if he might not have accepted it yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's trying to figure out if he can pull himself back together so they can go back to being just friends or whether she has to essentially go 180 on him.
> 
> But, like i said... Sounds like i'll find out soon enough.
> 
> 
> Pb.




fitness test


----------



## Pbartender

GutPunch said:


> fitness test


Yep... That's what I meant. Damnable semantics! 


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> The manual override option still exists.


Yeah, well. That's a little like saying, "Man, I could really go for a pizza right about now... I haven't had pizza in the longest time."

And then settle for putting EZCheez and ketchup on a saltine cracker.

Yep. Just like pizza.


Pb.


----------



## K.C.

:rofl:

Love it.

I have hit 6 months, my longest ever. Isn't nearly as bad as i imagined but then, put a hot interested woman in front of me and that would be different.


----------



## Conrad

K.C. said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Love it.
> 
> I have hit 6 months, my longest ever. Isn't nearly as bad as i imagined but then, put a hot interested woman in front of me and that would be different.


One of my favorite posters in days of yore was a guy in the Men's Clubhouse.

He called bullshix on a bunch of guys moaning that their wives really "didn't like sex".

He said, Put Brad Pitt in front of them half-naked and willing to have sex, and let's see how many of them don't like sex.

I know what you guys mean.

And, I've been there too.

It's the mother of all fitness tests.

And, rebound sex is available. You just need to keep in mind that's what it is... if that's what you want.


----------



## K.C.

Yeah, that's how I am looking at it. Would I say no to a nice hookup? Nope. I am not looking at all though. I will trust fate to put the right opportunity in my path, hopefully before my blue balls burst.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> He called bullshix on a bunch of guys moaning that their wives really "didn't like sex *with them*".


Heh... Fixed that for you.



Conrad said:


> And, rebound sex is available. You just need to keep in mind that's what it is... if that's what you want.


Don't I know it. But it reminds me of a song by The White Stripes...

_I roll over in bed, looking for someone to touch.
There's a girl that I know of, but don't ask for much.
She's homely, and she's cranky, and her hair's in a net.
And I'm lonely, but I ain't that lonely yet._


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Heh... Fixed that for you.
> 
> 
> Pb.


That's what we all discovered from that post


----------



## Awakening2012

Pbar & Grill - 

How long before the divorce will be final? It goes to discussions I've seen on here about dating while still separated but not divorced, especially when the WAS is already dating or has left with the motive to be with someone else. You'll have plenty of time to explore the dating world, and maybe you'll feel more confident about it once the D is final and you are truly single again. But in the mean while, how great for you to start seeing that there will, of course, be options for you! IMHO, all of us going through variations of this benefit from that validation that we still have shelf life  There is no rush, but as you become more able to put this behind you and realize your worth, the best is yet to come. It sounds like you are doing great -- hats off to you!

Warmly, A12


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> How long before the divorce will be final? It goes to discussions I've seen on here about dating while still separated but not divorced, especially when the WAS is already dating or has left with the motive to be with someone else. You'll have plenty of time to explore the dating world, and maybe you'll feel more confident about it once the D is final and you are truly single again. But in the mean while, how great for you to start seeing that there will, of course, be options for you! IMHO, all of us going through variations of this benefit from that validation that we still have shelf life  There is no rush, but as you become more able to put this behind you and realize your worth, the best is yet to come. It sounds like you are doing great -- hats off to you!


Thanks, A12... That's exactly the sort of mindset I'm aiming for. I'm not going to push it, but if something does happen in the meantime... that's fantastic.

Right now, I don't honestly know when it'll be final. Me, my lawyer *and even AXW's lawyer* are all trying to get her to the negotiating table -- dragged kicking and screaming, if need be -- so we can get it done with already.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Change of subject...

My grandmother's 100th birthday party is in a couple of weeks. I'm planning on going.

This morning I was talking to my big sister who lives in the next state over. She's going to the party as well. I suggested she stop by on her way through to Minnesota, and we could carpool there and back... Save a little gas money. She thought it was a good idea.

So, Sis is planning on taking a whole week off, and asked if she could stay and visit me and the kids for a few days before and after the road trip unless "things were still up in the air". Well, things are still up in the air, but then I realized...

Screw it. AXW has been spending overnights at posOM's place often enough... I think I'm going to ask her to spend a few extra nights over there, while my sister visits next month. It would be just a little bit of poetic justice.


Pb.


----------



## Awakening2012

Hi Pb - LOL, awesome plan! That is very cool your family is gathering to celebrate your grandmother's 100th birthday, how lovely! Just this past weekend, I travelled to my hometown in Minnesota for my Pop's 80th b-day! Spending time with Sis, and the kids getting to bond with Auntie is a great idea -- it is always so helpful to be around those who love us unconditionally. Tell AXW to clear out during Sis's visit!

Cheers, A12


----------



## Chuck71

EXCELLENT!!! 100.....wow! living history

1-kids

2-you

4,789-worms in Iceland

4,790-STBX

4,791-life on Neptune


----------



## Pbartender

*Observations of an Almost Ex-Wife...*

First, a related self-observation or two...

I pretty much had two days all to myself. AXW and the kids left Sunday afternoon, they came back yesterday afternoon just before I got home from work. I missed the kids a little, of course, but not so much that it really affected me... Just enough so that I was looking forward to seeing them when they came home. I think that's a good sign.

No AXW for a couple of days didn't bother me at all... If anything, there was relief and a sense of freedom. It really bolstered my conviction that we need to finish this and get into our own spaces.

Anyway... I got home from work yesterday, and was welcomed with big hugs from the kids, especially D13. After the hullabaloo died down a little, D14 went off to do his own thing, and D13 spent the next two hours regaling me with her waterpark adventures. While she was telling her stories, AXW kept finding excuses to walk by and interrupt with extraneous commentary and needless notifications of what she was doing ("I'm going to take a bath and see if I can get some of this chlorine out of my hair..."). I think she said more at me yesterday afternoon than the entire previous two months put together. I simply ignored her, and directed my conversation toward D13... Interestingly, D13 mostly ignored her, too, and just kept chattering at me.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Okay, guys, get a load of this...

An email from AXW to her lawyer, forwarded through my lawyer to me:



> In regard to the question about the visitation schedule, *I am not OK with what [Pbar] is proposing* (I think that Mon-Wed with me & Thur-Fri with him, alt weekends would be better for everyone involved). I also think that for most holidays, the kids should simply follow that schedule.


(Emphasis mine.)


Pb.


----------



## Awakening2012

LOL! She is picking up TAM-samuri-power-struggle-speak


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> LOL! She is picking up TAM-samuri-power-struggle-speak


Heh... The funny thing is, I've only used it three times in two very short emails. Furthermore, she was using it in a message she wrote to her attorney, and not directly to me.

She's finally sent us a list of times and days (a few days after my last "deadline"). It looks like we'll be able to get her to sit down at the table within the next week or two...

Another small step forward.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

*Observations of a Hot Blonde Mom...*

So, earlier this week I went over to my local dive to watch the hockey game. I let HBM know I was going to be there, and she showed up later with a bunch of friends... one of them her fresh boyfriend. 

We all hung out, had a few drinks, watched the game, played some pool... She talked all about the adventures she had with #3 up in Michigan. I talked about the trials and tribulations of the last week. She introduced me to the boyfriend, and a gaggle of her girlfriends who'd tagged along.

Here's what I noticed...

First, surprisingly, I was cool with it. Aside from a brief twinge of disappointment that I'd missed a chance, I didn't feel rejected by her or jealous of him in the slightest. If fact, he and I seemed to get along real well from the start.

Second, what I noticed is that while I might not be in the potential _romantic_ relationship tier with HBM, I'm solidly in the _intimate_ relationship tier with her, if you know hat I mean... That is, I'm certainly not a potential boyfriend (at least, not yet  ), but I'm also certainly more than just an ordinary friend to her.

She uses those little touches and pet names and flirtations in the same friendly way you'll see a "southern belle" use them, but she only uses them with a select subset of her closest friends. And right now, that's fantastic... I'm digging it.

You hear a women bemoan the fact that it's so difficult to have a close male friend, because there always seems to be that ulterior motive of sexual tension going on. And I think that's what I like about HBM right now... While there is a bit of natural attraction and I can recognize the potential for it, I've let go of any expectations that it could or should come to anything. I can let the friendship be what it is, without striving to make it into something it isn't.

Interestingly, her new guy was in the just about same boat as me about four years ago... Getting divorced, etc, etc... At that time, he had the same physique as me (he showed me a picture or two), and was similarly trying to get into shape. He took up boxing (he will be henceforth know as "Boxer"), and now he's looking pretty sleek. He invited me to join with him, and offered to show me the ropes, so to speak. Nice. I think I might go learn to box.

Anyway, HBM invited me over to a mid-week party of sorts at her house... It turned out to be a "girl's night in" sort of thing, with just me and a half dozen or so slightly drunk women (Boxer showed up later in the evening to back me up). Helluva fun.

Boxer even invited me to join in his birthday party bash tonight... A night out for drinks and dancing to live music.

But first... The kids and I are going to the Zoo today, meet up with some old college friends and their kids, and spend the day making faces at the monkeys.

Oh, and I almost forgot... I found out last night that D13 caught her first boyfriend. :smthumbup:


Pb.


----------



## Awakening2012

Wow, Pbar - 

This is amazing how cool you were with it all, and able to just let it be what it is -- and even be friendly with her new guy! I find this amazing and super-human. I aspire to the same level of Zen equanimity and acceptance you have displayed -- it is truly impressive, and you sound remarkably evolved. Thanks for the inspiration!

Cheers, - A12


----------



## Pbartender

*Weekend Update:*

I took Friday off, and the kids and I got together with some old college friends and their kids to spend the day at the zoo. Lotsa fun.

AWX disappeared for a day and a half... left for work Friday morning, and didn't return home until Saturday evening. She shows up late yesterday evening with three dozen eggs, and starts boiling them. She wants the kids to color Easter eggs with her. S14 isn't interested, and she tells him he won't get an Easter basket if he doesn't join in. This morning, she gives them each a basket full of candy and presents, and then she spends the rest of the morning playing games on her phone.

She took the kids out to a movie again this afternoon... posOM tagged along again, too.

I think somewhere in there she missed the real meaning behind Easter.


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

QUOTE
think somewhere in there she missed the real meaning behind Easter.

She's missed the real meaning of a lot of things. Can't put anything past a delusional ex or STB. Example....when I told ex choose two dogs she informed me she would be at her apartment all weekend, alone and was fixing spaghetti (a top five fav). "You're welcome to stop by." LOL I don't think eating was top on her agenda.


----------



## Pbartender

I've recently noticed other signs of things falling apart for her...

She's at least a month late on her car payment... She threw the late notice away.

She's also a month late on the family cell phone bill... After paying it late the previous month, as well.

She's been skipping out on buying groceries... And the stuff she does buy is mostly junk food garbage, or expensive oddball stuff that nobody eats and eventually gets thrown away.

And yet, she still has money for three-day vacations to water park resorts, lavish Easter gifts for the kids, and treating posOM to dinner and a movie.

If she can't even handle this half-ways in-house separation, with few bills and responsibilities for her to deal with, how can she possibly handle living completely on her own? If she can't handle this, how can I possibly trust to take care of the kids on her own, even if it's only half the time?


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> And yet, she still has money for three-day vacations to water park resorts, lavish Easter gifts for the kids, and treating posOM to dinner and a movie.


A girl has to have her priorities.


----------



## Chuck71

She can't............know what? She is fully aware she can't.

Yet her priorities are where?


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> A girl has to have her priorities.


Oh, I almost forgot...

The other day I bought some frozen hash brown patties for the kids to have with their breakfasts during the week.

Yesterday before they left for the movie with posOM, AXW tossed two of them in a pan to have as "lunch". She walked away with the stove on, and got so busy texting posOM that she burnt them both black and filled half the house with smoke before the smoke detectors went off.

:sleeping:



Chuck71 said:


> She can't............know what? She is fully aware she can't.


I agree... I think that's part of the reason she's angling to have more visitation time than me, and residential custody of the kids. She thinks -- I believe she got the idea from a particular divorced, single mother, toxic friend -- that getting both of those would give her a better chance at getting some (maybe full!) child support.

And if she was getting full child support, then all her problems would be magically solved with that extra money.



Chuck71 said:


> Yet her priorities are where?


I can't say for certain. But her actions seem to point to...


Herself.
posOM.
Buying her kids' love.


Pb.


----------



## Chuck71

FC is near impossible now and it benefits guys. Yeah what a f'ing shock! A dream she walks......sad thing kids suffer. I grant you, your D knows this. And one day, she will hold her mom accountable. She thinks you were tough, she hasn't seen jack sh!t yet!


----------



## Pbartender

Not to change the subject, but do a quick lumber-check on this email for me, guys...



> [AXW],
> 
> My Grandmother's 100th Birthday party is on Saturday, April 20th. I'm going. I spoke with my sister [Sis50] and she's going as well. She has offered to pick me up, so we can drive together and I think that's a good idea. I will not be taking the kids along, since they have school.
> 
> The plan is this: [Sis50] will arrive early in the evening on the 17th, so she can visit with me and the kids Wednesday and Thursday. She and I will leave early Friday morning for [Hometown]. We will return late in the day on Monday. [Sis50] will stay and visit with me and the kids Monday night and Tuesday, and will leave for Ohio Wednesday morning.
> 
> I think it would be best for you to find someplace else to stay on the nights she's visiting... the 17th, 18th, 22nd and 23rd.
> 
> 
> [Pbar].



Pb.


----------



## Chuck71

5 star


----------



## zillard

My crack at it:

[Sis50] will be here early evening on the 17th, so she can visit with me and the kids Wednesday and Thursday. She and I will leave early Friday morning for Grandmother's 100th Birthday party on Saturday. I will not be taking the kids; they have school.

We will return late in the day on Monday. [Sis50] will stay and visit with me and the kids Monday night and Tuesday, and will leave Wednesday morning.

Would you please consider staying someplace else on the nights she's visiting... the 17th, 18th, 22nd and 23rd?


----------



## vi_bride04

zillard said:


> Would you please consider staying someplace else on the nights she's visiting... the 17th, 18th, 22nd and 23rd?


Asking her gives her more power in the decision. I think it it better worded as a statement than a question.


----------



## Awakening2012

zillard said:


> Would you please consider staying someplace else on the nights she's visiting... the 17th, 18th, 22nd and 23rd?


Agree with vi_bride04 -- a friendly amendment to the above:

"So you will need to stay someplace else on the nights she's visiting... the 17th, 18th, 22nd and 23rd. Thanks!"

Best, - A12


----------



## zillard

vi_bride04 said:


> *Asking her gives her more power *in the decision. I think it it better worded as a statement than a question.


True. 

They do still share a house though. If PB wants her out those days I thought she may be more likely to leave if she felt it was more her decision. 

But PB knows her and her reactions better than I.


----------



## Pbartender

I was very carefully trying to avoid question marks, and any verbiage that might leave a door open for her to interject any sort of resistance or diversion.

I'm not asking for her permission, I am informing her that it's going to happen, and then giving her a suggestion for something she could do to ameliorate the inevitable... awkwardness ...that would arise between her and my sister.



zillard said:


> They do still share a house though. If PB wants her out those days I thought she may be more likely to leave if she felt it was more her decision.


I'm using the exact same wording she used when she "asked" me to spend the night elsewhere for her Pampered Chef party.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

*This just in!*

We finally have a date set for the first 4-way negotiation. It's a week from today at 2:00 pm.

Time to gird up my loins... so to speak.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

"I think it would be best" is fine. You aren't demanding, rather telling her what you think. 

I hope she responds well. It would be even more awkward - for her - if she does not.


----------



## Pbartender

Thanks guys. I tightened up the wording a little and sent it out. 

But back to the subject at hand...

I talked to my lawyer a bit about the upcoming 4-way...

We made sure we were on the same page about what's important to me, what I want to stand firm on, and what I'm willing to negotiate on.

We talked about some of the "leverage" I've got, about how useful (or not) it'll actually be, about how we might be able to apply it, and about how we'll only trot it out if absolutely necessary.

I voiced my concerns about posOM, and some of AXW's recent actions, behaviors and choices. I made it clear that I understood that there's nothing legally stopping her from anything she's been doing, and that it technically has nothing to do with the settlement itself. He reminded me that it'll be important to stay open to the discussion. I agreed and restated my intention to remain diplomatic, but also noted that recent developments have put me in a less than compromising mood, that I know that sort of mood would be counter-productive, and that I'll do my best to keep it under wraps. 

That's when he said... "I can understand your perspective on current events and we can do what you want and discuss options, consequences as you want."

Oh, how terribly tempting it is to take up that offer and find a way to shove back... Hard. Just out of spite. It would be supremely and vengefully satisfying to fight her and get for me everything she's been demanding.

Instead, I just told him, "Let's see how the meeting Monday goes, first."

Phew! Yowza.

_"This is a dangerous time for you... and you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force."_ *- Obi-Wan Kenobi*


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Something interesting I noticed today...

Now, if I cook -- lately, I end up cooking more often than not... and I'm a pretty damn good cook, if I do say so myself... and I do say so -- as I was saying, if I cook, AXW won't eat any of it when I cook it. But, if there are leftovers, she'll go into the fridge and eat them later, when I'm not looking.

That's one thing I know she's going to miss living on her own... My culinary skills.


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## K.C.

Does her eating it that way bother you?


----------



## Chopsy

Great news about the meeting! Very mature approach, no revenge tactics yet! Like the obi wan quote, very apt! LOL

Trying to figure out why she doesn't eat when you cook? It reminds me of something a child would do, but likely she thinks it's some mega power play to refuse your cooking, then eat it on the sly, as she's soo clever!! Hilarious and pathetic


----------



## Chuck71

The not eating your cooking.... lmao....... and women say only us guys do things as that. Wasn't it Confucius who said 'when planning revenge, dig two graves'?


----------



## GutPunch

It's time to prank the leftovers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> Something interesting I noticed today...
> 
> Now, if I cook -- lately, I end up cooking more often than not... and I'm a pretty damn good cook, if I do say so myself... and I do say so -- as I was saying, if I cook, AXW won't eat any of it when I cook it. But, if there are leftovers, she'll go into the fridge and eat them later, when I'm not looking.
> 
> That's one thing I know she's going to miss living on her own... My culinary skills.
> 
> 
> Pb.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm too distracted to cook. And why should I when your food is sooo good. But the hell if I'll let you see me liking it!

:rofl:


----------



## zillard

GutPunch said:


> It's time to prank the leftovers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Get a bottle of Sriracha.


----------



## Chuck71

Bake a cake.......place ex-lax inside.....grease the doorknobs.....yeah I know but it is funny


----------



## K.C.

Lmao, so much room for fun at her expense! The temptation would be agony.

I'd probably forget I'd pranced it and eat it myself though.


----------



## Pbartender

K.C. said:


> Does her eating it that way bother you?


Not especially. It was just... curious.

A couple days ago, for example, I made homemade stroganoff for dinner. I let her know it was there, if she wanted some, but she said she'd already eaten (apparently, she stopped somewhere with posOM, while driving him home). The next day, though, while I was at work and the kids were at school, she obviously had some of the leftovers for lunch.

Or, yesterday, I got up early and made biscuits and gravy for breakfast. She did the same thing... Said she wasn't hungry, and just retreated back to her bedroom with a cup of coffee. When I got home from work, though, the remaining biscuits were gone and the leftover gravy was dug into.

I think Z's got the right idea about it. It's just passive-aggressive cake-eating, in a way.



Chuck71 said:


> The not eating your cooking.... lmao....... and women say only us guys do things as that. Wasn't it Confucius who said 'when planning revenge, dig two graves'?


"Ah, AXW, my old friend. Do you know of the old Klingon proverb that revenge is a dish best served cold? It is very cold in the refrigerator."



K.C. said:


> Lmao, so much room for fun at her expense! The temptation would be agony.
> 
> I'd probably forget I'd pranced it and eat it myself though.


Yeah... I've got two teenagers... I'd probably end up pranking them by accident. 


Pb.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> Yeah... I've got two teenagers... I'd probably end up pranking them by accident.
> 
> 
> Pb.


could still be funny...


----------



## K.C.

3 for 1 deal!


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> 3 for 1 deal!


make sure and VAR/minicam the kitchen to capture the gold.


----------



## Chuck71

and post on youtube


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> Thanks guys. I tightened up the wording a little and sent it out.


Oh, hey... I already got an email reply back from her:

"That shouldn't be a problem."

Heh... Right... I didn't think it would be.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

So, on AXW's days/nights off, when she decides to not go out with her friends or posOM, I've been getting myself into the habit of fading into the background... I just quietly stay out of the way and do my own thing, and let her take care of the kids and everything else.

This is going to sound like I'm dumping on her. That's because I am.

Last night, I got home, and she was playing a game on the computer but had already started dinner... Pre-chunked stew beef and canned sweet potatoes tossed together in a pan and left to heat up in the oven. She had washed the dirty pots and pans, but didn't dry them or put them away. She had vacuumed somewhere, but the floors were all still dirty and she had dripped fruit juice all over the kitchen floor without cleaning it up. She had washed a load of laundry, but only hers and she left it sitting in the washer without drying it, folding it or putting it away.

Anyway... I got home, touched base with the kids, I ran through my Power90 exercise video, took a shower, ate dinner (my leftover stroganoff, NOT her... whatever ). D14 was having trouble logging into a computer game he wanted to play, and I helped him out with it because he came and asked me to. I did a load of my laundry (I just piled her wet laundry on top of the dryer). And then I relaxed for rest of the evening by watching old episodes of Deadwood, preparing an adventure for a D&D game this weekend, and drinking beer and a little bit tequila with lime.

AXW spent a couple more hours playing her computer game, until S14 complained about not getting a turn (that's when he asked me for help). She pulled dinner out of the oven (hours later I found out she left the oven turned on) and cooked some rice to go with it, but she was the only one who ate... S14 was too focused on his game, and D13 ate later but only had rice. She spent most of the rest of the evening playing games on her cell phone and texting her friends, while S14 was glued to the computer and D15 hid out in her bedroom.

Later in the evening, she took a bath, and got dressed up so she could go out and pick up posOM from work. Just as she was about to leave, she started tearing the house apart... She lost a $20 bill that she left in a pants pocket.

*AXW:* Did you see a twenty dollar bill while you were doing laundry? It was in one of my pockets.
*PB:* Nope.
*AXW:* 
*PB:* (ignore)

She interrogated S14 and D13 about it... Tore the whole house apart... Turned her car inside-out... Confronted everyone about it, as if she suspected one of us of stealing it, one last time... And finally gave up and just left, shouting, "I'm getting tired of my money always disappearing!"

I couldn't help but think that maybe she should find a better place to keep her money, rather than loosely stuffed into pockets.

At least she came home before midnight last night. I guess that $20 must have been her beer money for the night.

To top it all off... I woke up this morning to find that last night's congealed and dessicated leftovers were still sitting out on the counter.

No wonder she doesn't want to leave. 


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

"I mathematically proved it you see, Pbartender has that $20.00"


----------



## zillard

The adventures of PB and his 3 teenage kids.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> The adventures of PB and his 3 teenage kids.


I can hear the steel balls clicking downriver.


----------



## Chuck71

$20 in the Windy City...... six pack, bologna, bread. must have planned a picnic


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> I can hear the steel balls clicking downriver.


Oh, sorry about that... ran out of clean briefs yesterday... nothing left but boxers until I do more laundry.


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Stella Moon

Ya..I come to catch up on this thread...and now I'm starving to death...


----------



## zillard

Stella Moon said:


> Ya..I come to catch up on this thread...and now I'm starving to death...


Plenty of leftover canned stewmeat and rice to go around.


----------



## Stella Moon

I hate you zillard... lol...

I'm at a post...where I can't get up and leave...

_death by starvation...taunted by reading food stuffs..._


----------



## Pbartender

Stella Moon said:


> Ya..I come to catch up on this thread...and now I'm starving to death...


Hey, if you're ever in the neighborhood of Chicago, drop me a line. I'll cook you dinner.




Pb.


----------



## tom67

Stop it you're making me hungry.


----------



## Stella Moon

Pbartender said:


> Hey, if you're ever in the neighborhood of Chicago, drop me a line. I'll cook you dinner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pb.


...half way in luv right now...


----------



## Pbartender

Stella Moon said:


> ...half way in luv right now...


Only half way? Huh. I guess I'll have to cook you breakfast, too.

 


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Our first 4-way negotiations are scheduled for tomorrow afternoon.

I'm a little nervous, but confident and well-prepared... It's the same sort of feeling I used to get in high school and college, just before stepping on stage for that first opening night performance of a play or musical.


Pb.


----------



## Awakening2012

*The Pbar &amp; Grill...*

Good luck, tomorrow, Pbar -- rooting for you! Let us know how it goes!

Best Wishes, A12


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> I'm a little nervous, but confident...


A little extra boost this morning... I just realized that I'm comfortably wearing one of my son's T-shirts, and that I inadvertently moved up one belt loop when I put my pants on this morning.

:smthumbup:


Pb.


----------



## Chopsy

Thinking of you today! Hope it went well


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> Let us know how it goes!


Well, it's not done yet, but... This must be what a lion feels like, when it sees the antelope it's chasing stumble.

Details later...


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

Don't make us wait too long.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

ReGroup said:


> Don't make us wait too long.


My computer's been commandeered, so I'm posting from my phone, which is a pain in the ass. But I'll throw you a bone...

The negotiations went pretty much as expected... Several minor changes that were pretty meaningless. I conceded a few things that weren't terribly important to me, but that we had asked for simply as bargainihg points. And she let me keep more of them than I'd expected (she's not fighting for the '72 Beetle anymore).

I held firm on 50/50 time with the kids, but suggested several options for schedules. She dug her heels in on one specific schedule that would give her an extra day per week. Her reasons for it weren't terribly convincing, though. There was progress, but no resolution, here. More on that later.

There was also some wrangling over finances... I was asking to liquidate my retirement in order to pay off our marital debts and also provide a modest down payment for her when she moves out. She balked over the idea. Her lawyer had to explain to her that a judge would probably split those debt between us. Again, progress but no resolution. She blatantly lied about her finances several times, here (but, oddly, never in a way that could have actually helped her). More on that later.

Over all, they were completely unprepared to back up what she was asking for, and they completely taken by surprise by the solid evidence we used to back up our case. She was emotional and belligerent whenever she spoke... On the verge of tears at several points. I remained almost entirely calm and collected, I observed and declined to engage her. At one point, her own attorney very subtly told her to know it off. Details are forthcoming.

Obviously, it didn't go as she expected. And it was equally obvious her attorney was scrambling to adapt and keep up with the new situation.

Delusions and dreams falling apart in the face of reality.


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

*Highlight Replay #1:*

During discussions over custody schedules...

*AXW:* He only wants equal time with the kids so he doesn't have to pay child support!

*Both Lawyers:* 

*PB:* 

*AXW:* Go on! Tell me I'm wrong!

*Both Lawyers:* 

*PB:* 

*AXW:* issed:


----------



## ReGroup

I busted a gut laughing! Lol. 

Great Job!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

My attorney later confided that he had to bite his tongue to keep from mentioning that something similar could have been said about her... That she only wants the extra time so she can get child support.

I admitted I had been thinking the same thing at the time.




Pb.


----------



## wtf2012

Awesome Pbar...hope progress keeps being made. Just wanted to remind to you to stay strong. When reality crashes is when many AXWs will try to hoover you back. You are doing amazing, but these moments can bring up emotions


----------



## Pbartender

*Highlight Replay #2:*

During discussions possibly liquidating the retirement accounts to pay off debts...

*AXW:* Just like my retirement account from _[Former employer from 4 years ago]_!

*PB:* _[Explaining to attorneys...]_ It was a few thousand dollars. We used it to pay off some credit cards. _[I'll admit, this was one spot I slipped just a little. Probably should have kept my mouth shut.]_

*AXW:* It was $5,000! And we used it for the down payment on the house! _[She left that company 10 months before we bought our house, and my mother gave us the down payment for it.]_

*PB:* 

*AXW's Lawyer:* Let me tell you a secret... It doesn't matter. You made a marital decision together then. We're only worried about the situation now.

*PB's Lawyer:* :iagree:

*PB:* 

*AXW:* issed:


----------



## zillard

PBar abides.

obviously she's not a golfer.


----------



## Pbartender

*Highlight Replay #3:*

About halfway through, AXW and her attorney left for a bit to have a private pow-wow. In the meantime...

*PB's Lawyer:* You don't really need me... You know almost as much about this stuff as I do. :smthumbup:

*PB:* 

*PB's Lawyer:* I should just let you take care of it yourself... It'd save you money, and I could go get some other work done. 

*PB:*


----------



## Conrad

No wonder she drug her heels on the settlement conference.

She wants you to keep paying her bills while she parties with posOM.


----------



## caladan

Pbartender said:


> *Highlight Replay #1:*
> 
> During discussions over custody schedules...
> 
> *AXW:* He only wants equal time with the kids so he doesn't have to pay child support!
> 
> *Both Lawyers:*
> 
> *PB:*
> 
> *AXW:* Go on! Tell me I'm wrong!
> 
> *Both Lawyers:*
> 
> *PB:*
> 
> *AXW:* issed:


Please tell me you literarily had a pair of shades handy


----------



## Pbartender

*A few other highlights...*

There are two "morality" clauses in the joint parenting agreement... One about making sure any new spouse reads, understands and abides by the agreement, and another that prohibits exposing the kids to "immoral acts with the opposite sex". AXW and her lawyer wanted to change them a little... "Immoral acts with the opposite sex" would become "immoral acts with any person" and the other would be broadened to include anyone either of us was "shacking up with", to use her attorney's own words. As he was making these suggestions, which I readily agreed to, I stared AXW straight in the eye... She wouldn't look back at me, except for a quick glance or two.

At one point, AXW's attorney confessed, "She was shocked when you said [total dollar amount of family credit card debt]." Funny... I'd been complaining about all that debt for years. Plus, I had volunteered to give them my financial information months ago and was ignored. It's something they should have known going into the negotiations.

After their pow-wow, AXW's attorney started going over what a judge would be likely to decide, if the case came to court... and practically all of it was in my favor. It was all stuff my attorney and I had already talked about, so the only person who could possibly benefit from the explanation was AXW.

Then there was the looks on their faces, when AXW's attorney asked for credit card statements for verification, and I replied, "I have them right here, plus transaction records going back as far as I can find. Also, if you'd like them, have a statement for my retirement accounts, bank statements going back one year, statements for my car loan, student loans and mortgage, and couple months worth of pay stubs."

So, the lesson here, everybody, is *DO YOUR HOMEWORK!* Make sure you, yourself, understand the divorce laws for your state, and then be proactive about preparing yourself. And stay confident... Don't loose your cool. Think with your brain, and don't let your emotions get to best of you.

As G. I. Joe says, "Knowing is half the battle."


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

As good as it was yesterday, I'm unaccountably tired... sad... lonely... tonight. Feeling worn out all of a sudden... physically... mentally... emotionally... exhausted.

That meeting yesterday was too expensive... I can't afford to keep that up... Spent a year's worth of birthday and Christmas presents for the kids in two hours... Not sure it's worth it. I need to get her out of here.


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Yes you do. 

Let it out. Put in your exercise disks and push yourself til you cry. Get some endorphins going. Then relax and watch a good comedy.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> As good as it was yesterday, I'm unaccountably tired... sad... lonely... tonight. Feeling worn out all of a sudden... physically... mentally... emotionally... exhausted.
> 
> That meeting yesterday was too expensive... I can't afford to keep that up... Spent a year's worth of birthday and Christmas presents for the kids in two hours... Not sure it's worth it. I need to get her out of here.
> 
> 
> Pb.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not nearly as expensive as having her around to party indefinitely on your coin.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Not nearly as expensive as having her around to party indefinitely on your coin.


Oh, I know... And that's what I mean, in a way...

I'm not sure it's worth fighting for that extra day per week... I'm not sure it's worth fighting to completely. avoid support... In the end, I'll end up spending more on the fight than what I'll get out of it.

The kids are almost old enough to choose their own schedule... And I can ask for "right of first refusal" to make up for that lost Monday... Instead of paying her support, I'll offer to continue paying in full the expenses I already am... It'd be simpler than paying her to pay half, and I won't have to rely on her spending it apprpriately anyway.

In the end, I might be better off letting her have some of what she wants, just to get it done with, and get her out and away.


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Oh, I know... And that's what I mean, in a way...
> 
> I'm not sure it's worth fighting for that extra day per week... I'm not sure it's worth fighting to completely. avoid support... In the end, I'll end up spending more on the fight than what I'll get out of it.
> 
> The kids are almost old enough to choose their own schedule... And I can ask for "right of first refusal" to make up for that lost Monday... Instead of paying her support, I'll offer to continue paying in full the expenses I already am... It'd be simpler than paying her to pay half, and I won't have to rely on her spending it apprpriately anyway.
> 
> In the end, I might be better off letting her have some of what she wants, just to get it done with, and get her out and away.
> 
> 
> Pb.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Whatever you are ok with.

(I've heard that somewhere)


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Whatever you are ok with.


I doesn't have to do with what I'm ok with. I don't want to be just ok. I want to be good... great, even.

That'll never really happen while she's still here.

So, it's a choice between spending a lot of money now to fight a long, hard fight just to prove I'm right and she's wrong about something, or... Give a little extra for my kids, so I can finish it quickly, get her out on her own dealing with her own problems and her own responsibilities as soon as possible.

The former might be more satisfying in the short term... but I think the latter will be far better for both me and the kids in the long term.


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> I doesn't have to do with what I'm ok with. I don't want to be just ok. I want to be good... great, even.
> 
> That'll never really happen while she's still here.
> 
> So, it's a choice between spending a lot of money now to fight a long, hard fight just to prove I'm right and she's wrong about something, or... Give a little extra for my kids, so I can finish it quickly, get her out on her own dealing with her own problems and her own responsibilities as soon as possible.
> 
> The former might be more satisfying in the short term... but I think the latter will be far better for both me and the kids in the long term.
> 
> 
> Pb.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then go with it.

Congratulations - truly.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Congratulations - truly.


Save it until after she's moved out... Then I'll throw a party for anyone who cares to attend.

You'll be the first I'll invite.


Pb.


----------



## tom67

Pbartender said:


> Save it until after she's moved out... Then I'll throw a party for anyone who cares to attend.
> 
> You'll be the first I'll invite.
> 
> 
> Pb.


:woohoo:


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Whatever you are ok with.





Conrad said:


> Then go with it.


So, having had some time to get back up 50,000 feet, look it over, and think about it, I'm beginning to realize...

I was feeling ****ty about this all, because it felt like I was getting cornered into another #3, by way of giving in to her demands. But...

I see now that it's just her usual MO... She's got one idea stuck in her head. She's convinced herself that it's the best idea possible. She won't let any other idea challenge that. No matter what compromises we propose, no matter what alternatives we present, no matter what solutions we find to her objections, she will simply find another problem -- another excuse -- to justify her idea as the only possible choice.

I happened time and time again in our marriage. She's doing again with the custody schedule, and her lawyer's falling for it, my lawyer's falling for it, and I almost fell for it.

We can negotiate and compromise all the live long day, and it won't make a difference. We are using logic to try to reason with an irrational person. We all know it won't work.

Normally, this is the point where we say, "I'm not okay with that," set a boundary and enforce it for as long as it takes until she comes to her senses.

Unfortunately, "as long as it takes" is costing me $225/hr, and in the meantime she's still living in the basement for free and effectively partying on my dime on the weekends.

So yeah, it stinks. But it's time to suck it up and eat my goddamn lemons. Forget about her. If backing down on the schedule means I can get her out of the house sooner and without going bankrupt from lawyer's fees, then that's good for _me_... and the kids.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Then it becomes a #2

"Win win agreement"


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Then it becomes a #2
> 
> "Win win agreement"


And at least a little bit #1, as well.


Pb.


----------



## toonaive

Only 225 an hour? Thats a bargain!


----------



## Pbartender

HBM just invited me over to make a guest appearance for girls night at her house tonight. Hrm... let me think... Drinks in the company of a half dozen or more beautiful women?

Yeah... I could use some of that right about now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Pb Saying you kicked a$$ is understatement!

Ever considered law school?


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> Pb Saying you kicked a$$ is understatement!
> 
> Ever considered law school?


Nope. Never. Not my bag of tea.

So, here's what didn't get a final decision yet...

*Debt & Retirement:* She wanted me to take all the debt in my name (car loan, student loan, 3 credit cards and a personal loan against my retirement account), she would take all hers (car loan, and unknown credit cards that she doesn't acknowledge), and the two retirement accounts would be split 50/50. I wanted to liquidate my retirement account to pay off all the debts except our mortgage, and what was left would go to her to use as a down payment when she moved out.

*Custody Schedule:* I was aiming for a 50/50 schedule, ideally either alternating weeks or a 5-5-2-2 schedule. She's insisting on M-T-W for her, Th-F for me, and alternating weekends... A roughly 60/40 schedule in her favor.

*Child Support:* She wants some. Since we both essentially make the same income, had been planning on splitting expenses 50/50, and have roughly equal time with the kids, I didn't see the need for it.

So, this is the compromise we're offering in an effort to close the deal...


I'm keeping the house (she doesn't want it). I have 18 months to refinance. If I can't, then it gets put up for sale. Any resulting profit or loss is 75% mine and 25% hers. Plus, I'm entitled to related tax deductions for 2013.
I keep my student loan and car loan. She keeps her car loan. I get 50% of her retirement (not much). She gets 50% of my retirement (quite a bit), and also sufficient additional funds from my retirement account to pay off the credit cards, the personal loan and to cover the resulting tax obligation.
I will agree to her custody schedule. However, a "right of first refusal" must be included, and she must inform me of her work schedule in writing as soon as it gets posted.
We will reserve the issue of child support (meaning neither pays). However, I will pay 100% for school lunches, school registration fees, D13's violin rental, and provide a cell phone for one of the two children. She will provide medical insurance for the children, and a cell phone for the other child. Uncovered medical expenses would be split 50/50. (The split of expenses ends up being about $200/mo. in her favor.)
My attorney sent the formal offer over this morning... Hopefully, we won't have to wait too long for their response.


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> HBM just invited me over to make a guest appearance for girls night at her house tonight. Hrm... let me think... Drinks in the company of a half dozen or more beautiful women?
> 
> Yeah... I could use some of that right about now.


Oh... I almost forgot... Only a lack of guaranteed privacy prevented me from breaking my dry spell last night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Oh... I almost forgot... Only a lack of guaranteed privacy prevented me from breaking my dry spell last night.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How long could you possibly have needed?


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> How long could you possibly have needed?


Not long... but longer than that. 

Consider... A living room with no doors, let alone locks, open to a stairway upstairs and the kitchen and dining room right around the corner. A handful of other guests are yukking it up in the kitchen, but sporadically stepping into the living room to dance to the music on the stereo. There's kids just upstairs hanging out in their bedrooms.

HBM's friend was suggesting the couch in the living room. She's going through a long, messy divorce herself. She was quite drunk.

As much as I wanted to, there and then was not a stunt I was quite ready to risk just yet. It wouldn't have felt right.

Didn't we just talk about that in RG's thread, Chip?



> *LUKE:* But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
> *YODA:* You will know.


----------



## Pbartender

Little things...

AXW comes home from work last night. S14 gives her a big hug, but then pulls away, complaining, "You smell like cigarettes." I didn't catch her reply.

D13 wanted to invite a friend over for a sleep-over this weekend. She'd asked me, because AXW hasn't been around in the evenings and works the weekends. The original plan was to invite her friend over Saturday night. D13's friend has church on Sunday morning, though, so late last night D13 asked if her friend could stay over tonight instead of tomorrow. No problem, I told her, but we'll have to do a lot of house cleaning fast after school/work before she shows up... I warn S14 about it, also, so he can help. No problem.

This morning, AXW is up and awake early, bustling around before the kids and I are off to work and school. That's an oddity in of itself. But then she starts making lists of chores for them to do after school, and makes a big deal about setting the lists out and reminding the kids to do them after school...

*S14:* :sleeping:

*D13:* 

*PB:* :rofl: (inside my head)


----------



## Chuck71

Cleaning chores in a home she will soon exit

strange......very strange


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> Cleaning chores in a home she will soon exit
> 
> strange......very strange


Oh, I don't think that's what this is about. 

50,000 ft. my ass, it's time for some satellite surveillance...

D13 came to me instead of her to plan a sleep over. We had everything planned and taken care of without AXW. We didn't need her.

She was insinuating herself into the situation without being asked... replanning and micromanaging and detailing where it really wasn't needed. I believe she trying to prove to herself (and secondarily to me and the kids) that:


She can do the parenting thing better than I can.
That she really is involved with her kids' lives.
That she's still needed.
That my life (and the kids' lives, when they're with me) will be worse without her around.
In her mind, I think it's a combination of "I'll be so much better off without him," and "He'll regret it when I'm gone," translated into "I'll show him!" action.


----------



## Chuck71

It's like digging a hole to China and wondering why the time zones are different


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> It's like digging a hole to China and wondering why the time zones are different


The Farce is strong with that one.

She's often wrong, but never in doubt.


----------



## Chuck71

so his ex is the ruler of north korea????


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> She's often wrong, but never in doubt.


Oh boy, you said it.

I was going to sign onto Facebook, only to discover, she left her Facebook account logged in to an IM conversation she was having with an Old High School Friend (OHSF). I couldn't help myself, and took a look through it. A few highlights...



AXW said:


> ... life is crazy right now, but i know that this is a brief storm & soon things will be better (though putting my spare tire on in the rain in the dark last night was a tough moment & letting a friend help me pay for my new tire tomorrow will be another one, i am sure that these growing pains are going to lead me somewhere good)... wow.


Yep... No Pbar to help put the spare tire on. No money saved up to buy a new one. No Pbar to buy one for her. Doesn't even have to the credit to buy now and pay later.

I didn't have to say no... She didn't even bother to ask me for help.



AXW said:


> The [posOM] story is bitter-sweet... not sure how much i have shared with you, but this last year has been chaos for me. On Mother's Day, i found out that [Pbar] had been telling people we had an open marriage (this was news to me) and he and i had a huge fight that ended with us coming to the painful decision that we needed time and space apart to figure things out.


Not quite.

Shortly before Mother's Day, she came to me, gave me the ILYBINILWY speech, and informed me that we needed time and space apart to figure things out. She said we should see (date) other people. When I asked for clarification on exactly what that meant, she told me I need to go out and have sex with other women (no joke!). She said that whatever happened, we shouldn't hold it against each other. And all in all, it was a very calm and composed conversation... No big fight at all. I agreed, because I was still being nice-guy stupid.

Much later, I called it an "open marriage"... Well... We were still married, and ostensibly had permission to have sex with other people. What else would you call it?

She fails to mention the EAs, the sexts to coworkers, withholding sex, etc...



OHSF said:


> Omg!!! I had no idea!!! I can't believe he did\said that!!!!


Right. I can't believe I did\said that either.



AXW said:


> He has decided to file for divorce, which is very painful in the short term but will lead to a better place for us both in the long run (he is, for example, actually taking his adhd meds for the first time in 10+ years)


Last summer -- less than a year ago -- I went to my doctor, and based on the problems AXW had been complaining about, was diagnosed with mild ADHD.

I haven't taken the meds for months, because I don't really need them. I originally started going to my counselor/therapist for the ADHD... Now, though, she's convinced that the "ADHD" symptoms I've been displaying are mostly caused by a combination of anxiety and depression from AXW's emotional abuse, and her gaslighting me with lies.



AXW said:


> In December, I began talking to [posOM] because he is friends with a friend of mine... in January we went on a date which quickly/easily/frighteningly has developed into a bf/gf relationship with no effort from either of us.





OHSF said:


> Wow! I will use my wise voice and tell you what you already know. Please please please take it slow. I knooooow how challenging that is when it just feels right though!





AXW said:


> He is the first person i have ever known who makes me feel like i am not broken... which is wonderful and scary and beautiful and exciting and terrifying... and responding to you now: thank you, my darling, thank you! This is something that i know but am still working on believing... which takes me back to [posOM], who thinks i am smart and beautiful and who totally does not realize how lucky i am to have him in my life\


:rofl:

These are the exact same things she said about me, almost 17 years ago, when we first started dating.

The sad thing is, once again, she's depending on someone else to "not feel broken". It'll never work. She has to make herself feel not broken, otherwise it's going happen all over again for her.



OHSF said:


> But, that is amazing!!!!!
> 
> YOU are beautiful and whole and magnificent and amazing....
> 
> And it is time that YOU knew that for yourself...
> 
> I will say though.
> 
> That it IS good and smart and wise and healing to have time being single...being you, finding you...appreciating you...healing you...because
> 
> No matter what relationship you get into or are in...
> 
> You still need to heal the past or it will come back....does that make sense?


She's having trouble expressing it, but OHSF gets it.



AXW said:


> it does, it really does... and i was not expecting or planning for this (and did not think i was ready) but it is so perfect that if i don't give it my best shot i will regret it for the rest of my life... this sounds lame & it is WAY to early but i feel like he is someone who is supposed to be in my life for the rest of my life


Yep, heard all that before, too...



OHSF said:


> I had someone in my life last year that I felt ..still do feel the same way about. But sadly he hadn't dealt with his past and he freaked out and ran. We jumped in way too quick. I hadn't dated anyone in about 5 years and then blamo..here he was and I thought...soulmate.
> 
> Not telling u this to downplay or scare you...
> 
> Not at all...just be careful
> 
> I just want to see you and your heart HAPPY.


"But sadly he hadn't dealt with his past and he freaked out and ran"... which precisely describes what AXW has done with her marriage.



AXW said:


> i hear you and i agree... with [posOM], he and i are both in the same place right now... neither of us is ready for what we have or was looking for it... so we are trying to be careful about scaring one another... though he mentioned the 'M' word the other day & i very nearly failed at the not freaking out thing, lol.


Hah! She's not divorced yet, he can't drive his own car, and neither of them have their own place to live, and yet he's talking marriage? Wow.



OHSF said:


> Oh geez...yes, please just be careful with your heart. Also...when will your divorce be final? That all needs to be taken care of first so it doesn't get messier than it might already be...
> 
> Whoa!!! Lol





AXW said:


> I think that we will have a court date in may... things are progressing slowly because we are finding it difficult to find our middle ground...


Yeah, she's got that right... It's certainly is difficult for us to find our middle ground, when she refuses to speak about the divorce for two and a half months straight. 



OHSF said:


> Well...dating someone could make it messier and drag it out even longer. Have heard too many divorce horror stories. You don't want to give him something to hold over your head or against you.


At which point AXW decides she needs to get some sleep, ends the conversation, and says goodbye.

It's simply fascinating the way she deflects all the advice and warnings OHSF keeps trying to give her.

Crazy.


----------



## ReGroup

I can read this and picture my wife having this conversation with a friend - wow.

The delusion is simply amazing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Pb I know it will be hard but practice and have patience

wearing five inch stilettos to wade through this BS will be hard

don't fall in the poo


----------



## Pbartender

It's just mind-boggling.

On the other hand, I'm finding the skills I'm learning to use with AXW useful in other areas of my life as well. For example...

My youngest brother (Bro28) has been out of a job for years. He lives at home with my Mother, and since my Father died three years ago, he's trashed her house under the auspices of "fixing it up so she can sell it". Everybody in the family -- including me, up until recently -- alternates between giving him another chance and offering to help him get his **** together, and ragging on him for being a deadbeat loser. My Mom does the same, and as much as she complains sometimes, she never kicks him out like she should have years ago.

Yeah, you got it... Guess where I learned it from?

Anyway. It's late... pushing midnight. S14 is off to bed, D13 and her friend are in her bedroom giggling and talking about how they want their first kisses to be romantic and other girlie-teenie stuff like that. AXW hasn't come home from work yet (as usual, now, she didn't until 6am). All's quiet. I'm tired. I turn out the lights, and am almost asleep, when I get a text on my phone...

*Pbar:* :sleeping: 

*Pbar's phone:**DING-DING-DING!*

*Pbar:* 

*Bro28:* Hey...

*Pbar:* Heyo.

*Bro28:* So you going to get angry at me like Bro47?

*Pbar:*  :sleeping:


----------



## Pbartender

S14 was helping me cook up some dinner tonight. I asked him to go check the pantry for a new bottle of ketchup, because the old one was almost empty. When he couldn't find any in the pantry, he complained, "It'd help if Mom didn't forget to buy the groceries."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

I'm flabbergasted!

AXW had been almost friendly and chatty this weekend...

For example, D13 had her sleep-over Friday night. AXW worked late, and then didn't come home until 5:30 am. I ran out, and bought bagels, lox and cream cheese for me, S14, and the girls for breakfast. Later, round about noon, AXW wakes up. She walks by me with a big bagel sandwich, and cheerfully says, "Thanks for picking up the bagels this morning! This was a great idea!"

I would have responded either, "I'm sorry you feel that way," or "I'm not okay with you eating my bagels." But I couldn't decide which was funnier, and I missed my chance.

Later, she regaled me with stories about her toxic friend getting drunk on her birthday.

Then, this morning, without any warning or prompting, I got an email from her concerning our negotiation last week...



> Regarding the recent conference,
> 
> 1. We still seem to be stuck on how to work out our respective time with the kids; and I realized that I had an idea early in the process that I had never bounced off of you. Considering our respective work schedules, in your opinion, what would be the pros and cons of the following set-up and is it something that might work for us? The kids would be with me Monday-Thursday and with you Fri-Sun each week, only making alterations to this schedule for our previously agreed upon holidays. During the school year, I would get them off to school on Friday morning and they would go to your home after school, you would get them off to school on Monday morning and they would go to my home after school. On non-school days and during school breaks, I would drop them off at your home on my way to work on Friday and you would drop them off at my home on your way to work on Monday.
> 
> 2. Regarding the dept allocation. I don't want to be petty, but I keep coming back to the phrase 'dept follows assets.' I am struck by the fact that you wish me to take on an equal portion of our debt while you maintain all of our joint assets... this does not seem equitable. In particular, the matter of the refrigerator, in which you wish me to pay for half of the item but will maintain possession and use. Just something I need to think about and would like you to consider.
> 
> 3. I wanted to discuss the cell phone account at some point, right now I am paying for all four cell phones each month. The current contract on your phone expires in July.
> 
> 4. Just for your information: as we are no longer considering one another part of a joint household, I have removed you from my [Membership Wholesale Store] account (which I needed to do in order to maintain my compliance with company guidelines for employee accounts). If you would like to continue to shop at [Membership Wholesale Store], you will need to establish you own account. For the time being, I will continue to list your friend [#3] and your cousin as my add-on account holders, I will contact them directly if I choose to change that delegation in the future.


I give her full credit for trying to be diplomatic, here, but...

1. Her always with the weekdays, and me always with the weekends? Really? It's actually a worse schedule for her work schedule, and I still get short-changed for time with the kids.

2. A) I never asked her to take on an equal share of debt. that was her lawyer explaining what would happen, if the case went before a judge. B) There is not a single "joint asset" that she helped pay for in any way. C) My proposal was to ask for her help, so I could pay off my debt using my half of my retirement account.

3. I wanted to do that 5 months ago, but I couldn't without her permission because she's the primary account holder. She told me to wait. So I did.

4. Whatever... That's cool.


----------



## Chuck71

it's all in the pattern

as Conrad said, stay the course


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> it's all in the pattern
> 
> as Conrad said, stay the course


I referred her to the formal response letter my attorney had drafted and sent out before the weekend. I even forwarded her a copy of it, in case her lawyer hadn't gotten to it yet.


----------



## Chuck71

High 5...................go Cubbies


----------



## Pbartender

A follow up email from AXW:



> Re the cell phone: I am completely willing to transfer your cell phone to you at any time, provided you are willing to pay the early termination fee to do so... this is something you were unwilling to do in November.


So, like I mentioned before, back in November I talked to her about the cell phone bill. I would have split myself off then, but couldn't without her permission, since she's the primary account holder. I asked her to help me do that and she told me to wait.

Termination fees never even came up in that conversation, because there is no termination fee to split me off into my own account.

:banghead:

So, the one thing she picks out to discuss is a quibble over $50/mo worth of cell phone bill?

Perhaps this might be a good time to bring up the $2000/mo worth of mortgage and utilities that she's not contributing to.


----------



## Conrad

"Given I'm picking up the mortagage and utilities, I'm not ok with paying you termination fees on the phone"


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> "Given I'm picking up the mortagage and utilities, I'm not ok with paying you termination fees on the phone"


That's just it... *THERE IS NO TERMINATION FEE!*

Seeing as I'm in a bit of a smart-ass sort of mood, I was thinking of cutting and pasting her own verbiage on the subject.

Something like:

_I wanted to discuss the mortgage payment and utility bills at some point, right now I am paying for the mortgage and all utilities each month. You have been living in the house for free since July.

I am completely willing to transfer your housing and utility bills to you at any time, provided you are willing to move into your own house or apartment to do so... this is something you were unwilling to do last June._


----------



## Chuck71

She is seeking a reaction........C F D

"What termination fee?"


----------



## Chuck71

Draw up a rental agreement for her

that would be a reaction worth popcorn


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> She is seeking a reaction........C F D
> 
> "What termination fee?"


She's living in the house for free and can buy presents for her friend's birthday and go out and party, but can't afford to buy groceries, can't afford to buy a new tire for her car, can't afford to fix her broken windshield wiper, can't afford to pay the cell phone bill on time, can't afford to pay her car payment on time.

I've got two words for you...

Pri. Oraties.

There's nothing else for her to complain about at the moment, so she's nit-picking over $50 a month.


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> Draw up a rental agreement for her
> 
> that would be a reaction worth popcorn


Hah! Oh, especially if I added in a restriction on pets (she has a huge German Shepherd that hates me), or required a pet deposit.

I'll keep that in my back pocket...


----------



## Chuck71

be thankful it is tempoary


----------



## Chuck71

ask her to disclose the termination fee (if there is not one)


----------



## Chuck71

$500 pet deposit!


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> ask her to disclose the termination fee (if there is not one)


It really doesn't make a difference to me. If we split my account off, there will be no termination fee, and I won't have to pay something that doesn't exist.

She's just trying to score another "I'm right and you're wrong" point, through lies, manipulation and self-delusion.

I don't have to play that game anymore.


----------



## Chuck71

Agree. Ask for verified proof 

no given

ISYFTW


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> Ask for verified proof


Why bother? I don't need verified proof.

If I sit tight right now, what's she going to do?

Either she can pay for my cell phone bill until July... At that time, I can let the contract expire, and I get my own phone with my own account.

Or, she can cancel my cell phone and pay for the early termination fee (about as much as paying the bill until July)... At that time, I can get my own phone with my own account.

I guess I'm just feeling full of piss and vinegar today.


----------



## Chuck71

LOL...... I did something similar but to force her to be accountable. Course as we know, that did no good. But....I do not think she will ever learn that. NMPA


----------



## caladan

I used to work in mobile telecoms. There is a termination fee if you stop a contract in the middle of the duration, then start another one (in which case you'll get to choose a new handset with the new contract, etc). This probably will also apply to bundled contracts like what you're in - a change to the contract may be regarded as that. But yeah, if that's an issue to her, bring up the accomodation arrangement as well.


----------



## Pbartender

caladan said:


> I used to work in mobile telecoms. There is a termination fee if you stop a contract in the middle of the duration, then start another one (in which case you'll get to choose a new handset with the new contract, etc). This probably will also apply to bundled contracts like what you're in - a change to the contract may be regarded as that. But yeah, if that's an issue to her, bring up the accomodation arrangement as well.


I'd called our cellular provider and asked... They would split me off into a new account using any valid plan that they offer, the contract wouldn't change or renew (unless I asked them to), i'd be using the same handset, and there would be no termination fee (since I'm continuing to honor my current contract).

But, it requires authorization by both me (the person splitting off), and my AXW (the primary account holder).

The easy way to do it, would be for me to just get a new cell phone with a new (less expensive!) plan at a completely different provider, and then have them transfer my cell number to the new phone. That would automatically cancel the old account, but would suck up a termination fee.

But, like I said... It's no skin off my back if I do nothing about it. I have nothing to gain by going out of my way to help her, here. Considering the way she's been mooching on all the other bills, I have absolutely no inclination to do her any favors over the cell phone bill.


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> S14 was helping me cook up some dinner tonight. I asked him to go check the pantry for a new bottle of ketchup, because the old one was almost empty. When he couldn't find any in the pantry, he complained, "It'd help if Mom didn't forget to buy the groceries."


Last night, for the third time this week, S14 complained about AXW forgetting to buy groceries...

The kids and I were heading out to pick up some dinner, and he asks, "Can we get some milk and juice, too? Mom still hasn't gone grocery shopping."  So, I went bought the groceries that are supposed to be her responsibility.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> Last night, for the third time this week, S14 complained about AXW forgetting to buy groceries...
> 
> The kids and I were heading out to pick up some dinner, and he asks, "Can we get some milk and juice, too? Mom still hasn't gone grocery shopping."  So, I went bought the groceries that are supposed to be her responsibility.


Give her the receipt and inform her, per previous agreement, that you expect reimbursement plus gas money.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Give her the receipt and inform her, per previous agreement, that you expect reimbursement plus gas money.


I'll be honest, Z, the money itself doesn't really bother me... It's just more of her financial nit-picking. For some reason, she thinks I'm trying to dump all our debts on her as a part of the divorce settlement, and this is her petty way of poking back at me for perceived slight. It might be tight, but I know I can handle my budget well enough to continue paying all the bills on time and still put food on the table.

It doesn't even really bother me to pick up the slack and do the grocery shopping... I get better, healthier food for less than money than she usually spends. I'd rather be doing it myself, truth be told. Doing it right is something that benefits the kids first and foremost.

I think what really bothers me is that in the face of splitting the household, and while she's fighting so hard to get more custody time and child support with the kids for herself, instead of steeping up and taking responsibility and trying to be the best mother she can be, she's ditching out what few responsibilities she does have with regards to the kids just to prove a point.

The problem is, with the help of my counselor and you guys, it's not really doing any real harm to me, but the kids are becoming collateral damage.

And the kids are really starting to notice it.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> I'll be honest, Z, the money itself doesn't really bother me... It's just more of her financial nit-picking. For some reason, she thinks I'm trying to dump all our debts on her as a part of the divorce settlement, and this is her petty way of poking back at me for perceived slight. It might be tight, but I know I can handle my budget well enough to continue paying all the bills on time and still put food on the table.
> 
> It doesn't even really bother me to pick up the slack and do the grocery shopping... I get better, healthier food for less than money than she usually spends. I'd rather be doing it myself, truth be told. Doing it right is something that benefits the kids first and foremost.
> 
> I think what really bothers me is that in the face of splitting the household, and while she's fighting so hard to get more custody time and child support with the kids for herself, instead of steeping up and taking responsibility and trying to be the best mother she can be, she's ditching out what few responsibilities she does have with regards to the kids just to prove a point.
> 
> The problem is, with the help of my counselor and you guys, it's not really doing any real harm to me, but the kids are becoming collateral damage.
> 
> And the kids are really starting to notice it.


In my opinion it's not about the money either... it's about the respect. 

If you are not ok with her shirking the responsibility then don't sweep it under rug. 

Let her know. 

S14 has complained about grocery shopping not getting done. From here on out I will be taking care of our food, but you are responsible for your own.


----------



## zillard

I did something similar to this during inhouse separation. She got angry and tried to pick a fight over laundry. I told her it was funny she was taking socks so seriously. She wigged, then turned on the water works. 

So from then on I sorted out all the laundry and did just mine and D7s, leaving X's on the floor. 

She never made a peep about it again.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> If you are not ok with her shirking the responsibility then don't sweep it under rug.


It's not really even the shirking of responsibility. That's her choice. It's her mistake. She take suffer the consequences of it... Namely a loss of respect from both me and the kids.

I'll take the responsibility over, and gain what she loses.

It's the hypocrisy that irks me... The blatant way she makes a show of occasionally and intermittently caring for the kids, when it's convenient and easy for her. But when push comes to shove, when it comes to the small things that really mean something on a daily basis, she let's it slide.

What's even worse is the notion that she's willing to hurt the kids, even if it's unintentional, that she's willing to lose their respect, just to exact some little bit of revenge on me.

She's been fighting so hard to get more time and support than me, but everything she does says she'd rather be single and just occasionally drop in to visit the kids, shower them with gifts and take them on exciting outings. Everything she does says she doesn't really want to deal with the daily drudgery of being a parent.

That said, this...



zillard said:


> S14 has complained about grocery shopping not getting done. From here on out I will be taking care of our food, but you are responsible for your own.


...isn't a bad idea.


----------



## Pbartender

Heh... Looks like AXW might have gotten the message from S14, and bought some groceries today. Here the complete list of what she bought:


3 pounds of Cheez-Its
5 pounds of Pop-Tarts
4 pounds Ritz crackers
2 pounds of dill pickle flavored potato chips (we've already got a bag of Doritos, and a bag pork rinds)
2 pounds of cherry tomatoes
4 pounds of strawberries
4 pounds of sliced cheese (on top of the 2 pounds we already had)
2 pounds of sliced hard salami (in addition to the 2 pounds of deli ham and turkey in the fridge)
A pound and a half of spinach-artichoke dip
A box of 40 ice-cream treats
A dozen assorted giant muffins
Two loaves of bread (of the sort that no one in the house likes, but her)



Wow. I'm glad I bought some basics and staples yesterday.

And then, my eldest sister, who I'm carpooling to MN with for Grandma's BDay, relays this to me this afternoon...



> [Sis52],
> [Pbar] has asked me to not be here when you are visiting and I am going to honor his request, so I will be staying with my dear friend [ToxicFriend] (which will be lovely, as she and I have not had a lot of time together recently). I just wanted you to know... if I have said or done something that has hurt you in any way I am sorry. I hope that you have a safe and fun trip, that you enjoy the time with [Pbar] & the kids, and that your expedition to MN is trouble-free
> Love,
> [AXW]


Gee... I wonder what she could have said or done to piss off Sis52? 

On a side note, I find it mildly amusing that she's staying with her Toxic Friend (or, at least, she's going out of her way to tell everyone that she is... she posted it on Facebook, too), rather than posOM.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> On a side note, I find it mildly amusing that she's staying with her Toxic Friend (or, at least, she's going out of her way to tell everyone that she is... she posted it on Facebook, too), rather than posOM.


She probably isn't. 

Otherwise why tell?


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> She probably isn't.
> 
> Otherwise why tell?


Pretty much what I was thinking... Pretty much what I've come to expect by now.

Last night, the kids and I were folding laundry while watching a Full Metal Alchemist marathon. Now, D13 is really bad at folding laundry. She rushes through it, and most of it ends up in wrinkly wads. So, I took some time so show her a better way (we even looked up 5-second shirt-folding origami on youtube), and now she folds like a pro. As a bonus, she can fit all her clothes neatly into her drawers now, too!

She spent the rest of the evening thanking me, and giving me huge hugs.


----------



## Pbartender

Almost a week without AXW around... no problem.

Big rainstorms last Thursday... Got sent home early from work, because roads were getting closed. It was a little bit damp in the basement, because the outlet pipe on our sump broke and it was dumping the water in a great big puddle right next to the house. Fixed it with no problem, though, and then helped a neighbor pump half a foot of water out of his basement.

Big Sis showed up last Thursday, and AXW had already spent the previous night elsewhere. Friday, Sis and I drove up to Minnesota. We spent a lot of time chatting about the situation, and had a great time just road-tripping.

We spent Saturday at my Grandma's party, got to see a lot of extended relations that I hadn't in years, and spent hours catching up with them. Got a lot of sympathy over the divorce. Everyone noticed that I was getting back in shape and I got a lot of compliments on it.

Went to visit one my favorite aunts (we're both the middle children) at her house... She recently found out she had stage 4 cancer in her breasts, colon and all over everywhere else, too. She'd been through surgery to remove both breasts and part of her colon. It bought her some time, but she knows she hasn't long. It was tough going to see her, but it really cheered her up to see us and we had a good time.

We stopped by our hometown on the way back to get an extra day to visit with my Mom and my youngest brother. He's having a tough time... Out of work for years, living at home with my Mom, and trying to do some renovations on her house so she can sell it. Boosted his spirits too, just to have us visit and not complain about him.

We finally got back home yesterday, just before the kids got home from school. AXW was already out, and shouldn't be back until tomorrow night at the earliest.

No drama. No stress. No worry. Everybody getting along well, and nobody's messes to clean up after.

Boy did it feel good.

By the way, I did end up sending this...



Pbartender said:


> _I wanted to discuss the mortgage payment and utility bills at some point, right now I am paying for the mortgage and all utilities each month. You have been living in the house for free since July.
> 
> I am completely willing to transfer your housing and utility bills to you at any time, provided you are willing to move into your own house or apartment to do so... this is something you were unwilling to do last June._


...to her last Tuesday in response to her spiel about the cell phone bill. It's been a week and she hasn't gotten back to me about it yet. I think maybe she got the message.


----------



## Awakening2012

Hi PB - 

Great to hear you sounding so chipper and uplifted from your trip -- glad it was a good one! How lovely you got to spend some time with family you don't often get to see.

Good luck with getting AXW to move out and support herself or at least pay her share of the bills, stop the cake eating.

All Best Regards, - A12


----------



## Pbartender

Just got off the phone with my doctor...

Last week, before I left for Minnesota, I stopped by my doctor's office for my annual physical exam. This time around, I asked her to run tests for STDs, just in case.

She told me that while I am not currently infected, I tested positive for Hepatitis C antibodies. That means I was infected at some point, though.

I've never used drugs much less any that require needles, I don't have any tattoos, and there's only one person I've ever had sex with.

About 5 years after we got married, there was a period, when my blood tests were showing ridiculously high liver enzymes. My old doctor chalked it up to a combination of being overweight, and poor sleep patterns due to a rotating shift work schedule. It eventually, and coincidentally, cleared up when I transferred to a regular day job, started exercising more and eating better. I guess he was wrong.

So, this is a reminder to everyone in this forum... If your spouse is cheating -- or has cheated -- on you, or, for that matter, if you were the cheater, then please go get tested.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> So, this is a reminder to everyone in this forum... If your spouse is cheating -- or has cheated -- on you, or, for that matter, if you were the cheater, then please go get tested.


I completely agree with this! Even if you just suspect an EA. Luckily mine came up clear... but you never know. 

Added bonus - the insurance statement for my STD panel went to my X's apartment. :smthumbup:

Yikes on the antibodies, PB. Strengthens your resolve, yeah?


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Added bonus - the insurance statement for my STD panel went to my X's apartment. :smthumbup:


We're going to make that part of the program.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Added bonus - the insurance statement for my STD panel went to my X's apartment. :smthumbup:


You laugh, but that's also how I found out about AXW shagging posOM... The insurance statement for her IUD was addressed to me. 



zillard said:


> Yikes on the antibodies, PB. Strengthens your resolve, yeah?


Indeed. I'm trying to figure out how I should tell her. I was thinking of getting her a bouquet of flowers, with a card that reads...

_Roses are red.
Violets are blue.
Someone gave me Hep-C.
It could only be you._


----------



## Chuck71

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> You laugh, but that's also how I found out about AXW shagging posOM... The insurance statement for her IUD was addressed to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. I'm trying to figure out how I should tell her. I was thinking of getting her a bouquet of flowers, with a card that reads...
> 
> _Roses are red.
> Violets are blue.
> Someone gave me Hep-C.
> It could only be you._


Guess it's been going on for awhile


----------



## K.C.

Pbartender said:


> You laugh, but that's also how I found out about AXW shagging posOM... The insurance statement for her IUD was addressed to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. I'm trying to figure out how I should tell her. I was thinking of getting her a bouquet of flowers, with a card that reads...
> 
> _Roses are red.
> Violets are blue.
> Someone gave me Hep-C.
> It could only be you._


:rofl::rofl:

Oh god I feel so wrong for the laughter that brought!


----------



## aug

Start taking care of yourself with the Hepatitis C. Take care of the liver. Do some research on the long term effects.


----------



## Awakening2012

aug said:


> Start taking care of yourself with the Hepatitis C. Take care of the liver. Do some research on the long term effects.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: I work in the field of infectious diseases clinical care and science and can tell you there are a bunch of new and improved Hep C treatment medications in the pipeline -- soon to be approved by the FDA, and some may already be imporved. They are more effective (more patients are able to completely clear the infection) and more tolerable (fewer noxious side efffects), and allow a shorter dosing regime. The Hep C treament guidelines are rapidly evolving and now in the process of being updated. If you can, I would go to an ID (infectious diseases) specialist who is up on the latest science and meds for Hep C. Sorry you got infected but fortunately, it is treatable with complete cure possible. Take care!

Best Regards,- A12


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree: I work in the field of infectious diseases clinical care and science and can tell you there are a bunch of new and improved Hep C treatment medications in the pipeline -- soon to be approved by the FDA, and some may already be imporved. They are more effective (more patients are able to completely clear the infection) and more tolerable (fewer noxious side efffects), and allow a shorter dosing regime. The Hep C treament guidelines are rapidly evolving and now in the process of being updated. If you can, I would go to an ID (infectious diseases) specialist who is up on the latest science and meds for Hep C. Sorry you got infected but fortunately, it is treatable with complete cure possible. Take care!
> 
> Best Regards,- A12


Good to know. Fortunately, and I _am_ going to double check it with my doctor just to make certain, my doc told me I tested completely negative for viral load... Just the antibodies.

Doc thinks I got lucky... It was probably an acute case that "spontaneously resolved itself".

Rest assured, though, that I will be following up on this.


----------



## Pbartender

AXW's grandma is dying... She broke her hip a few weeks back, had surgery to fix it, then fell and broke her other hip during physical therapy for the first break. Had another surgery for the second break, but then caught pneumonia. She's been through a lot in recent years, and is tired of fighting.

Doesn't look good.

I'd heard about it from MIL, before AXW knew. AXW took an extra day away and made the three hour drive to go visit her grandma.

I might hold off on the Hepatitis news for a bit... She doesn't need that much bad news all at once. Especially when it seems the settlement negotiations may finally be coming to a close.

Which reminds me... Apparently, AXW's attorney will soon be sending a counter-proposal to our offer "regarding a few remaining issues". I'm curious to see what those issues are.


----------



## Chuck71

Sometimes timing is as vital as the news told.


----------



## Pbartender

Hah!

So, I noticed AXW did a renovation last night on her Facebook page. Out of curiosity, today I took a peek at the browser history and key logger I still have installed on the computer just to see what's going on...

First, she went through her photo albums and deleted every picture that had me in it. 

Then, she uploaded all new photos of her and posOM, and put up a new cover photo -- her, posOM, and a few other friends, standing in front of a limo.

Next, she poked around HBM's Facebook page. That actually made me curious. Not sure how or why she went there, but hey... Let her think what she likes. 

About this time, Bro31, who I was text-chatting with, noticed the new picture... And wrote up a really long, really nasty diatribe chewing her out (a few years back, he divorced his wife under similar circumstances, but without the kids). I asked him to take it down, but I think she saw it before he did... Looks like she thought about sending him a nasty message back, but in the end she just unfriended him. 

I don't know exactly why... the whole thing kind of made me laugh.

:rofl:


----------



## Awakening2012

I hear you, I try to avoid checking on STBXH's FB, but can't help noticing he still has one of out (beautiful!) wedding pics in his profiles album . Why would he not delete that? Probably he is just oblivious about it and he doesn't realize it is still there -- ugh, wish I could delete it myself.

Best, A12
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Awakening2012 said:


> I hear you, I try to avoid checking on STBXH's FB, but can't help noticing he still has one of out (beautiful!) wedding pics in his profiles album . Why would he not delete that? Probably he is just oblivious about it and he doesn't realize it is still there -- ugh, wish I could delete it myself.
> 
> Best, A12
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stop


----------



## Chuck71

A12 When you reach the point of not caring anymore, take a peek if you're curious. But if you feel it will sting in any way.....wait.


----------



## Pbartender

Unbelievable.

AXW does it again.

Months ago, AXW made big plans to take S14 to a comic book convention sometime. It was supposed to be a Mom-Son day... just the two of them.

So, she bought three tickets (wait a minute... three tickets?... AXW, S14 and... posOM? ) to the C2E2 convention in downtown Chicago for today. She never told me. I had no idea she had plans for today.

She did her usual disappearing act for a day and a half, and then shows up at 11:00 am today... Starts bustling around, showering, dressing up, hustling the kids to get ready to go out... But it's not for the convention.



She hands me the tickets to the convention, and tells me I can use them if I want...

She explains that she doesn't have any money left to spend at the convention, so she taking the kids to a birthday party... for posOM's niece... and she has to hurry, because they still need to stop and buy a present... with money she doesn't have to spend on taking S14 to the convention?

:scratchhead: :wtf:

I've no money to go, I already had plans for the day, and all my friends who'd want to go already have plans for the day.

$120 worth of tickets down the drain.

And she wonders why she has so much trouble financially.

SMH


----------



## Conrad

I'm glad it's not your problem anymore.


----------



## Conrad

Is your son disappointed that she let him down?

I mean, those posRelative birthday parties sure are fun...


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Is your son disappointed that she let him down?


He might have been, if he knew he she let him down... I'm pretty sure he'd completely forgotten about the convention she promised. I don't think he even knew she'd gotten the tickets.

He was expecting to stay at home, help me clean the house, help me do some yard work, endure me pestering him about a really big, really late school assignment, go to a dance/party at his middle school and play video games all weekend.

Honestly, it's the sort of thing he would have had a ton of fun at, but wasn't exactly excited about going into it... AXW was more revved up about the idea than he ever was. I'm pretty sure it was just an excuse to spend the day with posOM, hence the extra ticket. 



Conrad said:


> I mean, those posRelative birthday parties sure are fun...


:iagree:


----------



## Awakening2012

Pbartender said:


> She explains that she doesn't have any money left to spend at the convention, so she taking the kids to a birthday party... for posOM's niece... and she has to hurry, because they still need to stop and buy a present... with money she doesn't have to spend on taking S14 to the convention?


Dislike! 

I can only chime in with my random gripe of the day, which is that I forgot to include a torn-up copy of our weddding vows in the envelope when I sent STBXH the divorce papers :FIREdevil:

I hope you are able to enjoy some relaxing "me" time and do something nice for yourself.

Best, - A12


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> He might have been, if he knew he she let him down... I'm pretty sure he'd completely forgotten about the convention she promised. I don't think he even knew she'd gotten the tickets.


Turns out he never knew to begin with. She never even told him she was planning it. Yesterday, he saw the convention passes sitting out, and asked me what they were...

*PB:* They're tickets to a comic book convention.

*S14:* What? 

*PB:* What what?

*S14:* You said something about a comic book convention.

*PB:* Yeah, AXW wanted to take you to a comic book convention yesterday, but she said she didn't have any money to spend there, so she you took you guys to that birthday party, instead.

*S14:* Oh.

The kids did say they had fun at the party... It was at a Chucky Cheese sort of place, so they ate some mediocre pizza and then spent the rest of the time doing their own thing in the arcade.


----------



## Chuck71

maybe POSOM does not like comic books

again, where is AXW's priorities


----------



## Pbartender

Hey, Conrad! Hey, Mavash! Give me a hand, here... It's go time!

AXW sent me the following text this morning...



> Really loving the fact that you are telling me friends that I gave you Heptitus-C... especially since I never had it& do not have the enzymes (for the record, I have never had an irregular pap test & I had a full blood panel done within the last three months). Just when I think you have hit bottom...


 Oh, the melodrama!

I have not yet responded.

Aside from you guys here, I spoke about it with a handful of my friends in about the same way... Antibodies, no virus, probably 8 years ago while we were married, could have gotten it elsewhere but likely from her, I'm going to double check my results and then mention it to her so she can get tested.

I know the obvious initial reply would be like, "I'm sorry you feel that way."

I am also tempted to follow that up with simple facts about Hep-C, etc... Like an informative brochure:



> February was the first time you've been to the doctor for anything in years.
> During your visits to the doctor in February, according to the medical bill that was sent to me, you had a physical, a urinalysis, the standard blood tests, a pap test and pelvic exam, a mammogram, and you had an IUD inserted. STD tests were not listed.
> Most cases of chronic hepatitis show no symptoms for decades. You could be infected and a "full blood panel" still might not show elevated liver enzymes.
> Pap tests test for cancerous and pre-cancerous growths, not viral or bacterial infections.
> Doctors will not perform STD tests unless you ask them.
> The STD tests for Hepatitis C will look for the presence of antibodies and viral RNA.
> 
> Furthermore...
> 
> 
> Hepatitis C is most commonly spread through contact with contaminated blood.
> However, it can be less commonly contracted through sexual contact.
> I've never encountered a syringe or needle outside of a doctor's office or blood bank.
> I have no tattoos.
> You are the only person I've ever had sex with.
> Other than you, Kate and David, I haven't come into contact with anyone else's blood since we were married.
> 
> Based on your recent actions and behaviors, I'm presuming you are already sexually active with Patrick. If you have not been tested for STDs, you should. I'm sure he will be interested in the results. Please let me know what you find.


----------



## zillard

Explaining, fixing, and engaging.

Providing too many opportunities for drama.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Explaining, fixing, and engaging.
> 
> Providing too many opportunities for drama.


Yeah, I thought so.

Still, so tempting... the urge to logically and rationally prove her wrong, even though she'll never get it.


----------



## caladan

You kinda also need to not talk to mutual friends about that sort of thing. It's unfair that this sort of thing is getting to her from friends, regardless of how few people know about it. 

It's unfair.


----------



## Mavash.

*The Pbar &amp; Grill...*

I disagree that you got it from her.

This isn't an STD. It has to be from sharing blood as in needles, transfusion, got it from your mother during birth or from some other source. From what I read the risk of transmission via sex is low.

40% of people never find the source.

And I've read the risk of transferring it within a household is rare despite it being highly contagious.

If you respond you should apologize for discussing this with friends where it was possible it could get back to her. That's not cool. Who are these "friends" anyway? Yes she might be a horrible human being but don't stoop to her level.

I'm a big believer in karma. What goes around comes around.


----------



## Pbartender

*Re: The Pbar &amp; Grill...*



caladan said:


> You kinda also need to not talk to mutual friends about that sort of thing. It's unfair that this sort of thing is getting to her from friends, regardless of how few people know about it.
> 
> It's unfair.





Mavash. said:


> If you respond you should apologize for discussing this with friends where it was possible it could get back to her. That's not cool. Who are these "friends" anyway? Yes she might be a horrible human being but don't stoop to her level.
> 
> I'm a big believer in karma. What goes around comes around.


Okay. I don't necessarily disagree with you guys, but...

None of the people I talked were "mutual" friends. It was my biggest sister (while we were road-tripping to Minnesota), the older of my little brothers (who divorced under similar circumstances), my best friend from high school and my best friend from college (they've been friendly acquaintances of AXW in the past, but not exactly friends). Aside from you guys, here, that's it.

Now, I'll admit, that it's easy to place the blame on her without thinking... And that's why I try to ***** it out in a joking way, here and with my most trusted friends. Get it out in a safe place with a safe person, and then I can look at the situation clearly.

So, I talked to my friends about it... I blew off some steam about it, first, and then had a sober, honest discussion about the realistic chances of where I might have gotten it from, and what I should do about it.

I did apologize to all of them, first. They all replied pretty much the same way... "It's all good. You needed to vent. It's your business to tell her about, not mine."

So, none of them said anything to anybody, and certainly not her.

The web browser at home says she snuck into my Facebook account, snooped around and read through my messages. It's possible I left it logged in... That's my bad.

Then she defriended me. 



Mavash. said:


> I disagree that you got it from her.
> 
> This isn't an STD. It has to be from sharing blood as in needles, transfusion, got it from your mother during birth or from some other source. From what I read the risk of transmission via sex is low.
> 
> 40% of people never find the source.
> 
> And I've read the risk of transferring it within a household is rare despite it being highly contagious.


Oh, I know. I did a lot of research on it, and there seems to be a lot of disagreement on whether it can be transmitted sexually.

Some say no, but the other risk factors go along with promiscuity and make it look that way. Some say yes, but it's very rare. Others say yes, but it's not actually a traditional STD... it could happen if you're trying tricky things, or get too rough and you end up with contusions or abrasions in delicate areas.

At any rate, I came in contact with it 8 years ago in the middle of our marriage and was infected, even if it went away. AXW's past included many of the risk factors, and until recently she had been lying to me about such things.

Regardless of that, no matter how small the chances, it is worth having my doctor double check my test results. It is (would have been) worth discussing the possibility her being infected with her. It it is worth it to recommend that she get tested. The friends I was ranting at and talking to helped me come to that decision, instead of just keeping it to myself and possibly letting her find out on her own (if she is infected... she might not be), years down the road.

So, while I'd normally agree with you guys, I'm having a hard time having sympathy for her in this instance... Understand that "Just when I think you have hit bottom" is her code word for "Aha! I found another excuse for calling you the bad guy, and justifying ditching out on the marriage. She uses it about once every other week, and it's beginning to lose any meaning it once had.


----------



## Pbartender

Am I really being stupid about this?

AXW spent the last three years that I didn't have to use as a "support network". Now I've got my friends back and I am using them as my support network... What's wrong here?


----------



## Mavash.

*Re: The Pbar &amp; Grill...*



> So, none of them said anything to anybody, and certainly not her.


Good to hear because if one of them blabbed they aren't your friend nor are they 'safe'.



> The web browser at home says she snuck into my Facebook account, snooped around and read through my messages. It's possible I left it logged in... That's my bad.
> 
> Then she defriended me.


This is more believable. And lesson learned ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS log out before you walk away from the computer. I do it and I have nothing to hide. I also have my computer set to delete history instantly. I love my husband but he doesn't need to see EVERYTHING. KWIM? 



> At any rate, I came in contact with it 8 years ago in the middle of our marriage and was infected, even if it went away. AXW's past included many of the risk factors, and until recently she had been lying to me about such things.


I read all the same things as you did HOWEVER you still can't say with 100% certainty that it came from her. Now if you tell me she got tested, has it, IN ADDITION to the risk factors then I'll believe it. Until then this is nothing more than speculation.



> Regardless of that, no matter how small the chances, it is worth having my doctor double check my test results. It is (would have been) worth discussing the possibility her being infected with her. It it is worth it to recommend that she get tested. The friends I was ranting at and talking to helped me come to that decision, instead of just keeping it to myself and possibly letting her find out on her own (if she is infected... she might not be), years down the road.


Agree it's the right thing to do to inform her....nicely not have her read about it on FB. 



> So, while I'd normally agree with you guys, I'm having a hard time having sympathy for her in this instance... Understand that "Just when I think you have hit bottom" is her code word for "Aha! I found another excuse for calling you the bad guy, and justifying ditching out on the marriage. She uses it about once every other week, and it's beginning to lose any meaning it once had.


I'm not asking you to have sympathy for her I'm asking you to rise above it. Transcend this and take ownership for your part. Had she blasted you for NICELY/respectfully telling her to get tested then I would have written you a comeback that would have made her head spin but I can't with good conscience do that when you blabbed without concrete facts to back it up. 

I don't do tit for tat. 

If she does it again (without being provoked by you in some way) let me know and I'll write you a fabulous comeback. It's one of my favorite things to do.


----------



## Mavash.

Pbartender said:


> Am I really being stupid about this?
> 
> AXW spent the last three years that I didn't have to use as a "support network". Now I've got my friends back and I am using them as my support network... What's wrong here?


People can't usually be your support network AND her friends too. If you do this you need to pick and choose what you tell them knowing full well it WILL get back to her.

Now if she found out this on FB (which sounds more plausible given that she defriended you shortly thereafter) you have nothing to worry about.

Carry on with your friends. 

There is nothing wrong.


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> Good to hear because if one of them blabbed they aren't your friend nor are they 'safe'.


Yep... that happened before. I simply stopped talking to them about such matters.

Oddly enough, it's the same way I end up getting most of my news about AXW... She's got a lot of gossipy friends, word gets around, but she still talks to them like they're vaults.



Mavash. said:


> This is more believable. And lesson learned ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS log out before you walk away from the computer. I do it and I have nothing to hide. I also have my computer set to delete history instantly. I love my husband but he doesn't need to see EVERYTHING. KWIM?


Yes, I do. In the last year, I've gotten into the habit of web surfing using a "private browsing" window. It doesn't record history, it doesn't keep cookies or data, and it automatically logs you out when you close the window, amongst other things.

Looking at it, I'm pretty sure simply forgot to switch to the private window before logging on. I closed the window, and it didn't log me off. She went to log in and my account came up.

Normally, I'm pretty careful about it. I must have gotten distracted by something... Stupid ADHD. 



Mavash. said:


> I read all the same things as you did HOWEVER you still can't say with 100% certainty that it came from her. Now if you tell me she got tested, has it, IN ADDITION to the risk factors then I'll believe it. Until then this is nothing more than speculation.


I know. I agree. And even in my haze of emotion over it, I was trying not to be that certain, though I admit I was tending toward it. I was upset and mad about the whole thing. That made it easy to chalk it up as her fault.

And I knew full well that I needed to get past that blame before I could talk to her about it.



Mavash. said:


> Agree it's the right thing to do to inform her....nicely not have her read about it on FB.


Yeah, that was the whole aim. Though, you've got to admit, there's a world of difference between reading it on a public Facebook status update, and learning by reading someone's private Facebook IMs.



Mavash. said:


> I'm not asking you to have sympathy for her I'm asking you to rise above it. Transcend this and take ownership for your part. Had she blasted you for NICELY/respectfully telling her to get tested then I would have written you a comeback that would have made her head spin but I can't with good conscience do that when you blabbed without concrete facts to back it up.


I agree, and I won't ask you to, but...

Did I really "blab"? I was talking privately with trusted friends. And the whole point of those conversations was to get the fogging emotions out of my head, so I could see if there actually were concrete facts, or not.

She saw a private conversation she wasn't meant to, and misinterpreted my intentions.

Apologizing because she got mad after reading my private messages concerning something I wasn't yet ready to talk to her about feels like going back to co-dependent nice guy.



Mavash. said:


> I don't do tit for tat.


I know the initial plea for help may have sounded that way, but that's not really what I was asking for... or, at least, I didn't _think_ I was... well... maybe way, way down deep underneath... maybe... just a little.  A very little.

I'm over it now.



Mavash. said:


> If she does it again (without being provoked by you in some way) let me know and I'll write you a fabulous comeback. It's one of my favorite things to do.


You got it.



Mavash. said:


> People can't usually be your support network AND her friends too. If you do this you need to pick and choose what you tell them knowing full well it WILL get back to her.


No... These are all people who are my friends first and foremost. At best, they were her "friends" only because she was my wife.

As I said above, I already learned that lesson once... I simply don't confide anything I don't want her to hear to anyone who is still friends with her.



Mavash. said:


> Now if she found out this on FB (which sounds more plausible given that she defriended you shortly thereafter) you have nothing to worry about.


I'm almost certain of it. Browser history seems to bear witness to it.



Mavash. said:


> Carry on with your friends.
> 
> There is nothing wrong.


:toast:

Thanks, Mavash.

Much better.


----------



## Mavash.

Granted I'm old so take this with a grain of salt.

FB isn't private. Not even close. They store every message and collect information on you. PRIVATE information. And the LAST thing you want is info connected to you about medical issues.

This conversation was delicate in nature and should have never been on FB to start with. 

Did you know employers and insurance companies collect info from FB? You could be uninsurable if they find out you have Hep C. And maybe I'm off base but do you really want to take that chance?


----------



## Mavash.

*The Pbar &amp; Grill...*

Fwiw I've been burned venting on the Internet. I now no longer do that unless its anonymous like here. I'm even leery of emails and text messages. Yes I've accidentally sent a vent text to the person I was venting about. Awkward....lol

If at all possible I prefer to vent AWAY from places where I could possibly get busted. I'll save vents for in person or a call.


----------



## Chuck71

Ever think AXW may be on TAM?


----------



## caladan

Hey PB, what I do is simple - I have a passworded profile. The ex (or stbx) also has one. They lock after 2 minutes of inactivity, and you need a password to get back in. This leaves me with some flexibility when I get careless about logging off facebook.


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> Granted I'm old so take this with a grain of salt.


Taken. 

I've have a close relative who worked in the intelligence community. This is what I learned from him...

There are four types of personal information:

Things that are not worth hiding and cannot be hidden.
Things that are not worth hiding and can be hidden.
Things that are worth hiding and cannot be hidden.
Things that are worth hiding and can be hidden.

Only the fourth is worth worrying about.

For the rest you don't need to make it easy for people, but there's a fine line between caution and paranoia. As one of my favorite sayings goes... A ship is safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for.



Chuck71 said:


> Ever think AXW may be on TAM?


No. I'm as certain as I can be that she isn't. She definitely found out about this from my Facebook PMs.



caladan said:


> Hey PB, what I do is simple - I have a passworded profile. The ex (or stbx) also has one. They lock after 2 minutes of inactivity, and you need a password to get back in. This leaves me with some flexibility when I get careless about logging off facebook.


That's a good idea... That's how we do it at work. I'd never really considered it at home, because I had -- previously -- trusted everyone at home.

I could could set them up pretty quickly for me, AXW and the kids.

The funny part...

Several years back, before we "separated", at a time whenI thought things were still going okay, the same thing happened in reverse... She left herself logged in, with a Facebook chat window open. When I went to log in, I saw what she had been saying about me to a friend: lies about things I did, nasty name calling, making fun of me, making jokes at my expense, etc. When I went to talk to her about it, she blew up and said it was just venting, said it didn't really mean anything, accused me of intentionally spying on her, of invading her privacy, of hacking into her Facebook and email, and so on. All righteous indignation and blame shifting onto me, and I sucked it up, then.

And now, she's done exactly the same thing she once so vociferously complained about.


----------



## Chuck71

Those who scream the loudest are usually the most guilty


----------



## Pbartender

It just occurred to me...

If AXW was even moderately thorough about snooping through my FB account, there's so much more for her to see there. All sorts of posts and updates and photos...

Of me doing cool, fun stuff with the kids...
Of me having fun with the HBM Squad...
Of me going out and having adventures on my own...
Of me just enjoying life, even (especially!) without her...
And those conversations talked about more than just Hep-C...

The worry I have about how AXW openly dating posOM will affect the kids...
My disappointment in the way she's abdicating her familial responsibilities...
Or her repeating patterns of manipulation, blame-shifting, avoidance and denial...
The way she's been lying and rewriting history...
How she's been sitting on the divorce without moving it forward...
Her out of whack priorities...

And more... I wonder if any of it really registered with her.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> And more... I wonder if any of it really registered with her.


doubt it.


----------



## Chuck71

I noticed my laptop was moved one morning and searched the browser and saw her (ex) checking her messages from LOL Christian Mingle; we had just filed two weeks before. I put a password on it and there was no way in the world she would know it. It was an important place and date with the girl I dated before her.

But no it did not register with AXW because there was nothing in the info that suited her needs. When the day comes and she wants to R with you, you may want to say 'right after the Cubs win the World Series'.


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> But no it did not register with AXW because there was nothing in the info that suited her needs. When the day comes and she wants to R with you, you may want to say 'right after the Cubs win the World Series'.


That leaves open the possibility that the Cubs actually do win the World Series, Chuck... I'll simply say, "Sorry, no."

I was having trouble getting to sleep last night. Late, late, close on to midnight, I got up to get a drink from the kitchen and saw the living room lights were still on. I went to turn them off, but saw AXW in there canoodling away with the computer. She hadn't heard me walk in, so I quietly left and went back to bed. But...

I couldn't help but notice that she was doing a little late night internet research on Hepatitis C.


----------



## Pbartender

After a conversation with an old friend, and a bulletin from the school district about bullying, I have come to the conclusion that, for whatever reasons, and intentional or not...

My wife is a bully.

I think many others, here... Bullwinkle, ReGroup, Gutpunch, K.C., and Soca70 come to mind ...could probably say the same.

Consider these few highlights...



> Bullying is the use of force or coercion to abuse or intimidate others. The behavior can be habitual and involve an imbalance of social or physical power. It can include verbal harassment or threat, physical assault or coercion and may be directed repeatedly towards particular victims, perhaps on grounds of race, religion, gender, sexuality, or ability.





> He also suggests that social aggression or indirect bullying is characterized by attempting to socially isolate the victim. This isolation is achieved through a wide variety of techniques, including spreading gossip, refusing to socialize with the victim, bullying other people who wish to socialize with the victim, and criticizing the victim's manner of dress and other socially-significant markers (including the victim's race, religion, disability, sex, or sexual preference, etc.). Ross outlines an array of nonviolent behavior which can be considered "indirect bullying", at least in some instances, such as name calling, the silent treatment, arguing others into submission, manipulation, gossip/false gossip, lies, rumors/false rumors, staring, giggling, laughing at the victim, saying certain words that trigger a reaction from a past event, and mocking.





> There can be a tendency in both sexes to opt for exclusion and mockery rather than physical aggression when the victim is perceived to be too strong to attack without risk, or the use of violence would otherwise cause problems for the bullies such as criminal liability, or the bullies see physical aggression as immature (particularly when bullying occurs among adults).





> Studies have shown that envy and resentment may be motives for bullying. Research on the self-esteem of bullies has produced equivocal results. While some bullies are arrogant and narcissistic, bullies can also use bullying as a tool to conceal shame or anxiety or to boost self-esteem: by demeaning others, the abuser feels empowered. Bullies may bully out of jealousy or because they themselves are bullied. Some have argued that a bully reflects the environment of his home, repeating the model he learned from his parents.





> Researchers have identified other risk factors such as depression and personality disorders, as well as quickness to anger and use of force, addiction to aggressive behaviors, mistaking others' actions as hostile, concern with preserving self image, and engaging in obsessive or rigid actions. A combination of these factors may also be causes of this behavior.





> Dr. Cook says that "a typical bully has trouble resolving problems with others and also has trouble academically. He or she usually has negative attitudes and beliefs about others, feels negatively toward himself/herself, comes from a family environment characterized by conflict and poor parenting, perceives school as negative and is negatively influenced by peers".





> Contrarily, some researchers have suggested that some bullies are "psychologically strongest" and have "high social standing" among their peers, while their victims are "emotionally distressed" and "socially marginalized". Other researchers also argued that a minority of the bullies, those who are not in turn bullied, "enjoy going to school, and are least likely to take days off sick".





> Research indicates that adults who bully have authoritarian personalities, combined with a strong need to control or dominate.


...I find it amazing how much of that describes AXW.

Old codependent-nice-guy-fixer me would have never seen it, would have never accepted it, would have never even considered it. He would have made excuses to justify her bad behavior, blamed himself for doing something wrong to trigger it and then futilely tried to make it up to her.

I'm sure exactly why it should, but it puts the 180 in a whole new light for me.


----------



## Chuck71

they are miserable and make danm sure you are in the tank too


----------



## Pbartender

Two things tonight...

First. Since yesterday, AXW has washed the same basket of laundry twice... After I already washed it once.

:wtf:

Second. When I went to log into Facebook, I was greeted to this message:



> *You’re Temporarily Blocked*
> You have tried to log in too many times. Please try to log in again later.


Guess who tried to log back into my account, but hadn't realized I changed my password 8 months ago?

:rofl:


----------



## zillard

floundering


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: The Pbar &amp; Grill...*

Holy sh!t. My ex was a bully. So fricken eye opening right now and it's been 10 months since I moved out.

I always thought NPD but definitely just a bully with narcissistic tendencies. Would stare down other guys EVERY TIME we would be out in public and always had something negative to say about everyone....could never praise or be praised without him coming in to knock that person down. No matter who it was, even his kids.

Thanks for that informative post on bullies lol

Oh and I think all your AXW lies are making her crazy. The grass isn't as green as she has portrayed and you are living well. Too well for her liking. I mean, she convinced herself how great her new life is but as much as she lies to her and others, it's really not fabulous. So she may actually be going a little crazy as her lies are no where close to reality.

Washed the laundry twice after you already did it?? What a weirdo lol


----------



## K.C.

I don't feel my stbx was a bully.

If I had ever stood up for myself then maybe she would have been, but i was too busy running and trying to "belong" she didn't get the chance. I was too busy bullying myself for her to get a chance!


----------



## ReGroup

I was a bully in Mrs. RG's eyes. 

It was pure projection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

I think it was something in their cosmetics..... may be an alien type of mind possession. Yes that is far reaching but.... after you read the posts you scratch your head.


----------



## Pbartender

K.C. said:


> I don't feel my stbx was a bully.


Did you miss this part: "He also suggests that social aggression or indirect bullying is characterized by attempting to socially isolate the victim"?

Because that's exactly what she's trying to do right now.


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> First. Since yesterday, AXW has washed the same basket of laundry twice... After I already washed it once.
> 
> :wtf:


You guys will never believe it. I think she washed that basket of laundry... again. I keep finding the same laundry in the dryer. I take it out, put it in the clean laundry basket, and then set it aside for the kids to fold (it's their clothes, mostly). The next afternoon, I'll come home from work, the basket is empty and that load of laundry is back in the dryer. It's happened every day since Monday, now.

:crazy:


----------



## ReGroup

I believe it. Her head isn't screwed on properly at the moment.

This we already now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> You guys will never believe it. I think she washed that basket of laundry... again. I keep finding the same laundry in the dryer. I take it out, put it in the clean laundry basket, and then set it aside for the kids to fold (it's their clothes, mostly). The next afternoon, I'll come home from work, the basket is empty and that load of laundry is back in the dryer. It's happened every day since Monday, now.
> 
> :crazy:


This is sooo awesome. :rofl:


----------



## Chuck71

rather OCDish

sneak your clothes in basket in morning


----------



## Pbartender

And yet, the huge mess she made in the kitchen, when she cooked dinner two days ago, is still there... It's like living with another teenager.

But, then...

Last night, we got the news that AXW's Grandma, who had been sick in the hospital, had passed away (MIL called me up, and gave me the news personally). She was a beautiful, happy, loving woman, and was the sort of feisty off-color-joke-telling little old lady, who always reminded me a little of Betty White. She had always been kind to me, and I loved her as if she were my own grandmother.

I'm sad to see her go.

AXW very solemnly and ceremoniously broke the news to kids, who seemed to take it with the usual disinterest of teenagers hearing news about distant relatives they rarely see. They were both sad to hear the news, but it only took a few minutes before S14 was back to playing video games and D14 was back to texting and laughing with her friends from school. I overheard AXW talking to one of her coworker friends over the phone last night, and she seemed to think the kids were "still processing it". But the truth is, I don't think it was news that really affected them, or will affect them, in any appreciable way... They didn't know GMIL well enough for it to.

Oddly, AXW seemed to be taking the news about the same way. When she was talking to her friend on the phone, she was gossiping and joking, she spent most of the evening texting and playing games on her phone, and later she told me about plans she was making to take S14 to see Iron Man 3 late tomorrow night after she gets off of work. 

It's like you guys keep saying... Disconnected.


----------



## Northern Monkey

Can I drop some washing of at yours?


----------



## tom67

Northern Monkey said:


> Can I drop some washing of at yours?


I was thinking of doing that too.


----------



## Pbartender

Northern Monkey said:


> Can I drop some washing of at yours?





tom67 said:


> I was thinking of doing that too.


Sure, but you'll never see it again. It'll be like it vanished into some sort of Sisyphean laundromatic hell for clothing.

And if, by chance, you ever do get it back... You're folding it yourself.


----------



## Pbartender

Today's meeting with the judge was no big deal... He set a date two weeks from today for a pretrial settlement conference. That's good for me... He means business about finishing this quickly. Waiting for more details about it from my attorney.

Also... GMIL's funeral is tomorrow. Between bills and S14's birthday on Monday, I won't be able to make the 3 hour drive... I can't even afford to send flowers. That bothers me a little. GMIL always treated me as if I were one of her own grandkids, and I came to think of her as an extra Grandma.

AXW is driving down with the kids for the funeral. She didn't tell me. I found out about the funeral and AXW taking the kids there from MIL.

MIL said that it's understandable that I won't be able to make it, with the short notice... I asked her to pass along my love and condolences to everyone. That's something, I guess.


----------



## Chuck71

Not all in laws are poisonous, my MiL was my second mom

in ways, I miss her more than the ex, odd I'm sure

but your AXW may be an adult but she acts as immature as a teen


----------



## Northern Monkey

*Re: The Pbar &amp; Grill...*

My in laws are the dogs bollocks. Shame as I have no contact with them anymore.


----------



## Chuck71

well three of my ex's four brothers were certified idiots


----------



## Pbartender

So, before I post my weekend update... A legal question:

What do you guys know about temporary orders? Have any of you used them? What can they be used for? What do you generally have to do to get one? How are easy are they to get?

With the way things have been going, I'm thinking about asking my attorney to look into getting temporary orders for exclusive use of the marital home (get her out!), and also possibly for division of debt (get a little help with the bills she isn't paying) and maybe child support as well (so I can afford to buy the groceries she isn't).

I'm definitely going to get my lawyer's advice, but I was curious as to everyone else's experiences with them.


----------



## Pbartender

*WEEKEND UPDATE!*

Friday Evening...

AXW is working late, but has plans to take S15 to a movie -- Iron Man 3 -- after she gets home from work. She warned him to be ready. But since it was a late show, he decided to take a nap before the movie and was still asleep when got home. She was miffed.

Saturday...

AXW wakes the kids up early (for a Saturday), gets them dressed up, packs them up in her car and heads out on the three hour drive to GMIL's funeral... She never said a word about where they going or when they'd be back. Didn't even say goodbye. I heard the front door shut and saw her car backing out of the driveway.

If I didn't already know about the funeral from MIL, I would have called my attorney and then the cops. I was tempted to do it anyway, but didn't.

Spent the day doing house work, yard work and went birthday present shopping for S15.

AXW and the kids came home earlier than I'd expected... They didn't stay to visit with all those relatives AXW hasn't seen in years. AXW had a dinner date with one of her Toxic Girlfriends, while D13 was supposed to babysit TGF's kids.

Left to our own devices, S15 decided he wanted to have a Dad-Son pre-birthday celebration with just the two of us... I let him open my presents, we ordered Chinese, then spent the rest of the evening building his new DC Superhero LEGO sets, playing his new DC Superhero LEGO video game, and watching Justice League cartoons. Good times.

At the end of the night, for the first time in something like 10 years, he asked if he could sleep in my bed with me. Yeah, a little old for it, but hey... no problem. So, we made a pre-birthday slumber party.

AXW dropped D13 off at home at 2:00am, and then headed right back out.

Sunday...

Previously, AXW made a big deal about S15 opening birthday presents on Sunday, instead of in his birthday, Monday... Because she'd ostensibly be home on Sunday, but was working on Monday.

She came home just before Noon with pizza and big sackful of presents. S15 opened them all, we ate pizza, then AXW left again... To work? To posOM's place? I don't know; as usual, she didn't say. And she didn't come back until late, as usual.

The kids and I cooked a homemade quiche Lorraine, at the request of S15, had birthday cake without AXW, and had fun goofing off for the rest of the night.


----------



## Pluto2

It is not unusual to obtain a temporary order for possession of the marital home during divorce, or a temporary order of support. Either party can request one. The two usual grounds are physical abuse, or behavior between the two that adversely impact kids. Obtaining the temporary order is no guarantee that you get that property on the final divorce. Same with support, it never hurts to ask-especially if it would maintain the status quo on debts/support etc. pending final dissolution of the marriage.


----------



## Pbartender

Pluto2 said:


> It is not unusual to obtain a temporary order for possession of the marital home during divorce, or a temporary order of support. Either party can request one. The two usual grounds are physical abuse, or behavior between the two that adversely impact kids. Obtaining the temporary order is no guarantee that you get that property on the final divorce. Same with support, it never hurts to ask-especially if it would maintain the status quo on debts/support etc. pending final dissolution of the marriage.


The issue is that the status quo has already been upset...

In a nutshell, AXW is still living at the house, but is not making any contributions to the mortgage, utilities or maintenance of the house. Additionally, she's already made it known that she's not interested in keeping the house after the divorce.

Also, she's abdicated the majority of the child rearing and housekeeping duties, but likewise has withdrawn almost all financial support, except for gifts and "fun-time" outings with them. She's rarely at home when they are, only showing up on occasion for "fun-time".

I'm paying for all the family debts, expect for the ones I've "forced" backed into her responsibility... and most of those she's let fall into arrears.

So, I've become the _de facto_ primary caretaker for the kids, and practically provide sole support for them... I'm covering virtually all the bills and debts, but getting no help from her at all.


----------



## Pluto2

I'd sure ask for possession and temp. child support. That is no way for you and the kids to live.


----------



## Chuck71

PB...... weekend update? ......... you going Seth Myers on us? LOL

on son falling asleep...... normal for teenagers

AXW should know this, Parenting Teens 102

I feel deeply for your financial situation but the two reasons

are deeply subjective

If it was me..... granted she does not want house so of course

she will not pay a penny on mortgage. Food / utilities are different

counter with her coverage of those two if you pay mortgage

after a "no" counter with half utilities / food

in many div one stops paying everything and squats

leaving the other to shoulder everything or lower themselves

to the mongrel behavior of the other

PB you are clearly the better person and this is temporary

even though AXW is Darth Vader, there is good in her

and the realization will come one day, she was not hurting you

she was taking away from the children


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> PB...... weekend update? ......... you going Seth Myers on us? LOL


Seth whosiwutsit now?

I'm Chevy Chase... and you're not.

Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead. Details at eleven.

That's the news. Goodnight, and have a pleasant tomorrow.


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> Previously, AXW made a big deal about S15 opening birthday presents on Sunday, instead of in his birthday, Monday... Because she'd ostensibly be home on Sunday, but was working on Monday.


And for all the fuss she made... She had the night off last night, and we could have celebrated his birthday on his birthday.

:redcard:



Chuck71 said:


> on son falling asleep...... normal for teenagers
> 
> AXW should know this, Parenting Teens 102


As it turns out, she was in a hurry because she had posOM waiting in the car to go to the movie with them.

:redcard:



Chuck71 said:


> even though AXW is Darth Vader, there is good in her and the realization will come one day, she was not hurting you she was taking away from the children


And that's exactly why it bothers me... She thinks she's making herself happy. She thinks she's getting some sort of petty revenge on me. But really, in the long run, it's the kids she's hurting.

If she continues... Years from now, they'll look back, blame her for breaking up the family and hate her for it.

And I have to accept that there's very little I can do to stop her from making those choices... I can only protect the kids as best I can.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> And I have to accept that there's very little I can do to stop her from making those choices... I can only protect the kids as best I can.


pure gold


----------



## Chuck71

FTR Seth Myers is the ONLY reason I still watch SNL

as I have followed your thread PB, your AXW's behavior 

has diminished steadily, it would not astound me if her name

is in the news, patterned after Susan Smith (circa 1994)


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> ...it would not astound me if her name is in the news, patterned after Susan Smith (circa 1994)


Don't take this the wrong way, Chuck, because I appreciate the sentiment, but that's not even remotely funny right now.



Pbartender said:


> He set a date two weeks from today for a pretrial settlement conference.


I just realized that the pre-trial settlement conference is one week from this Friday... Which is, coincidentally, the one year anniversary of the ILYBINILWY speech, and AXW moving into the spare room.


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> At the end of the night, for the first time in something like 10 years, he asked if he could sleep in my bed with me. Yeah, a little old for it, but hey... no problem. So, we made a pre-birthday slumber party.


And now, last night was D13's turn to ask sleep in my bed... She even brought her favorite old, beat up teddy bear (the one she inherited from AXW) and tattered security blanket.

*sigh* 

AXW was supposedly meeting with her attorney yesterday about the counter-proposal they were going to send two weeks ago. She didn't come home. Still wasn't home in the morning. She usually only does that on the weekends. Neither of the kids said anything, but they both noticed.

This morning I got the official notice from my attorney about the settlement conference for next week. Though I don't need to be, he wants me to be there for it. I'm taking that as a good sign... that we've got something to fight for, and that there's a good chance we can get it.

Now, I just need to find a dress shirt and suit coat that fit. I've lost 50 pounds since the last time I had a reason to get dressed up.


----------



## Pluto2

Ahhhhh, shopping? Go there looking just dynamite.


----------



## Pbartender

Pluto2 said:


> Ahhhhh, shopping? Go there looking just dynamite.


Heh. Given the current circumstances, I'll have to see what I can do with what I can find at Goodwill.

Fortunately, I've always been a miracle-worker when it comes to turning leftovers and salvage into something great.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> Heh. Given the current circumstances, I'll have to see what I can do with what I can find at Goodwill.
> 
> Fortunately, I've always been a miracle-worker when it comes to turning leftovers and salvage into something great.


:smthumbup:

Macklemore - Thrift Shop


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> Macklemore - Thrift Shop


That judge like, "Damn! That's a cold ass ******."


----------



## Pbartender

And the "counter-proposal" from AXW's attorney just came in...



> 1) In response to your letter dated April 11, 2013, we are in agreement with all of your proposals except regarding the issue of child support. Please do revise the proposed JPA and MSA accordingly.
> 
> 2) With regards to child support --- we would make the following counter-proposal ----- Pbar would pay guideline support of 28%, but AXW would pay 100% of the school and extra-curricular fees.
> 
> 3) Assuming we have reached an agreement to everything except the support -- I suggest that we cancel the pretrial and set the matter for a hearing time (we could always conference with the judge at that time. My concern is time, money and the non-binding quality of court recommendations.
> 
> 4) The parties' son approached my client, crying, and made a number of statements to her which lead us to believe that Pbar is both saying and allowing others (his mother) to say disparaging comments about my client. Whether this was your client's goal, or more likely, simple carelessness, it caused distress to the child. Please do speak with him. As it is, the issue created a bonding moment between mother and son.
> 
> 5) Finally, it was brought to my client's attention that Pbar is claiming that she gave him Hepatitis C. Be advised that Mrs. Pbartender has never had Hepatitis C and can prove it. Such lies can be the basis of a tort claim. They certainly make it more difficult to settle this matter amicably. Please have your client cease and desist immediately.


Un. ****ing. Believable.

More Later.


----------



## Pluto2

Pbartender said:


> Heh. Given the current circumstances, I'll have to see what I can do with what I can find at Goodwill.
> 
> Fortunately, I've always been a miracle-worker when it comes to turning leftovers and salvage into something great.


You're around Chicago, correct? Have you dropped into Unique Thrift Stores, they have some cool stuff.


----------



## Mavash.

PB don't sweat the counter. Should have read the one my best friend got from her EX when they were at this stage. It was totally laughable. What a complete waste of billable hours.


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> PB don't sweat the counter. Should have read the one my best friend got from her EX when they were at this stage. It was totally laughable. What a complete waste of billable hours.


Yeah, I know... It's the usual bullying scare tactic to get a rise out of me. Right now, she's getting no child support, so they ask for the sky and hope I give them _something_ in reaction.

It's ridiculous, and based on the circumstances no judge would agree to it as fair.

That's not what bothers me. What really bothers me is #4.

I talked to S15 about it. Here's what really happened, according to him:

S15 overheard me talking with my mother on the phone (I'm not exactly sure how... Whenever divorce or AXW comes up, I retreat to my bedroom and close the door). He heard me say something about AXW not helping to pay the bills (which is perfectly true, and not in any way derogatory). It didn't bother him, he said, but he was a little curious and confused about it. So, he went asked AXW about it. She told him I was lying, which also confused him, because... "I know you would never lie about something like that."

When I asked him if he had cried about it, looked at me like...

:wtf:

That's a Helluva "bonding moment" she created there.


----------



## Pbartender

In other news, I just got confirmation... AXW thinks I was dating HBM.

Said that at one point, I offered to pay her $5000 in lieu of child support, and that I made the offer because I was in a good mood from dating HBM. Said she was planning on accepting the offer, but that I changed my mind about it.

It's complete and utter delusional bull****... but Hi. Larious.

:rofl:


----------



## Mavash.

All very normal.

This is what happens with delusional people.


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> All very normal.
> 
> This is what happens with delusional people.


It may be normal for delusional people... but, Good Heavens, is it exhausting to deal with.

It's starting to feel like I'm going the distance with Creed.


----------



## Mavash.

Hang in there.

You'll be able to breathe once you get her gone.


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> Hang in there.
> 
> You'll be able to breathe once you get her gone.


"I can't see nothin, you gotta open my eye... Cut me Mav!"

Just got of the phone with my attorney...

A) 4 & 5? No response needed. Conrad would like my lawyer.

B) He told me there's two ways to look at the ridiculous counter-proposal... First, as a pie-in-the-sky ask for everything Hail Mary play, that they're trying to see what they can get out of us. Secondly, screw it... If they won't take us seriously, then we'll let the matter go before the judge.

C) A temporary order to force her to move out is out of the question... It would take, effectively, a criminal act on her part to justify it.

D) A temporary order to get some child support to help with the bills, however, is a distinct possibility. It take time, though -- a few weeks, at least -- and might only be good for a few months. But it would help, and it would set a precedent.

E) If the case does go before a judge, my attorney thinks I could have a very good chance of turning the tables and getting "primary" custody of the kids and some child support out of AXW. But... It would likely be a long, hard, expensive fight.

So, the plan is... Toss one last counter-proposal back their way, in the interest of saving time and money. I'll take on just a little bit more expense, or pay her a very small amount of child support (to salve her pride), and in exchange we add in my student loans to the pile of debts she'll help me pay off.

If they don't agree to that, then it's tough luck... We file a motion for a temporary order for child support, and let it go to the judge.


----------



## Conrad

The temporary order for child support is ALL you need to do to get things rolling quickly.

Just proceed with that.


----------



## Pbartender

That's not a half-bad idea, Conrad... I'm gonna sleep on it, and see if it still flies in the morning.


----------



## Chuck71

Remember..... Creed lost


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> Remember..... Creed lost


Rocky lost... to a split decision by the judges. But...

_"Ah come on, Adrian, it's true. I was nobody. But that don't matter either, you know? 'Cause I was thinkin', it really don't matter if I lose this fight. It really don't matter if this guy opens my head, either. 'Cause all I wanna do is go the distance. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."_

:bringiton:


----------



## Mavash.

This is so tough. Had a front row seat for a year with my friend.

He agreed to nothing until the 11th hour. He waited until days before their last chance before judge. She laid down and he still wanted to fight her.

Idiot.


----------



## Chuck71

Rocky II (1979) - IMDb


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> Rocky II (1979) - IMDb


Rocky (1976) - IMDb



I do get what you mean, though, Chuck... and thanks for the sentiment.


----------



## Pbartender

The gloves are off.


----------



## ReGroup

Pbartender said:


> The gloves are off.


Lol... What did she do now?


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> The gloves are off.


What were you expecting?


----------



## Pbartender

ReGroup said:


> Lol... What did she do now?


Nothing more that she hasn't already.

I just came to a decision after a weekend of long, hard thought.

_"...but the blamelessness and the fighting edge are not always combined. Both qualities are necessary for the man who is to wage active battle against the powers that prey. He must be clean of life, so that he can laugh when his public or his private record is searched; and yet being clean of life will not avail him if he is either foolish or timid. He must walk warily and fearlessly, and while he should never brawl if he can avoid it, he must be ready to hit hard if the need arises. Let him remember, by the way, that the unforgivable crime is soft hitting. Do not hit at all if it can be avoided; but never hit softly."_ *- Theodore Roosevelt*

I've been avoiding the brawl. Now, it's time to hit hard.


----------



## ReGroup

Good for you PB... 

You've been taking all of this like a champ.

Time to start pushing back.


----------



## GutPunch

I think the temporary order for support would be a good start to
establish a precedent for who is emotionally and financially
supporting your kids.


----------



## Pbartender

GutPunch said:


> I think the temporary order for support would be a good start to
> establish a precedent for who is emotionally and financially
> supporting your kids.


In short...

My guy is simply informing the other team that their counter-offer is unacceptable. We will not counter the counter-offer, and I won't consider anything that isn't reasonable and respectful.

We are going ahead with the pre-trial, to get the judge's opinion on support and also possibly debt allocation.

We'll hold off on the motion for temporary support until after the pre-trial this Friday... My lawyer thinks it may not be needed, and doesn't want me to spend any money on it, if I don't have to.

And on the lighter side of things...

I now have confirmation that posOM lives at home with his Mom so that, and I quote, "...he can be Irish for a while."

:moon: :toast: :rofl: :beer:


----------



## Conrad

I wonder if posOM's mommy knows the marital status of his "girlfriend"


----------



## zillard

Must be nice to be a pos. If you like the smell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> I wonder if posOM's mommy knows the marital status of his "girlfriend"


I believe so... Apparently, his family has been "very supportive" of AXW.


----------



## ReGroup

Of course they are... She's being "saved".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> Of course they are... She's being "saved".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again


----------



## Pbartender

ReGroup said:


> Of course they are... She's being "saved".





Conrad said:


> Again


All this has happened before, and will happen again... again... again... again... again... again... again... again... again...


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> All this has happened before, and will happen again... again... again... again... again... again... again... again... again...


If she takes care of herself, the normal life expectancy of this cycle expires around 50.


----------



## ReGroup

I loved that show PB.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

PB don't let AXW know you're a southpaw until Mickey tells you to switch


----------



## Pbartender

I had a great day today...

S15's class had a field trip at the lab I work at, and I volunteered as one of the chaperones. The tour guide found out I worked there, and had me chipping in with fantastic stories and exciting details to keep the poor 8th graders from getting too bored.

Also, school field trips are great places to chat up single moms. :smthumbup:

Funny thing... One of the moms, who was also along to chaperone, _used_ to be a trial divorce lawyer. She talked about how she now feels kind of ****ty about some of the things she did and some of the things she put people through. Now, she runs a sort of legal consulting firm that advises people going through divorce for the purposes of helping them avoid the nastiness.

I told her just a little bit of my story... and she knew exactly what I was talking about. After the field trip, she offered me a ride back to the school (she parked at the lab, but I was parked at the school), which I gratefully accepted, and then she gave me her number, "In case you want any advice on dealing with your wife, or even if you just need to talk."

 Awesome.


----------



## GutPunch

Awesome is right! 

Its called karma.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

GutPunch said:


> Its called karma.


Karma... Urgh. After I got home, I got a text from a Librarian, who I've been friends with for years, asking me if go with her to her SCA meeting last night. Unfortunately, I got double-whammied with a cold and allergies tag-teaming on my sinuses, and was in no good condition to go anywhere.

Oh well, maybe next time... And then she invited me to go see a blues band this weekend, if I'm feeling better.

Might be a good way to celebrate, if the pre-trial meeting goes well.

:smthumbup:

Speaking of which... AXW and her lawyer made the stipulation that we only do the pre-trial conference, if we both agree to abide by the judge's recommendations. Ha! Works for me.


----------



## Chuck71

librarians are usually reserved but VERY kinky! good luck on the date LOL


----------



## zillard

mmmm. librarians. 

They whisper all day long...


----------



## Pbartender

Last night...

*PB:* (to D13) Hey, we've still got the Hunger Games movies from the Library. Do you want to watch it tonight?

*D13:* Maybe later? I was gonna hang out with Mom for a while... We were watching That 70s Show. Maybe we could watch the movie this weekend?

*PB:* Sure... But let's not wait too long. It has to go back to the Library soon. I was looking forward to watching it with you, and was waiting so we could see it together.

*D13:* Yeah, I know. But I get to hang out with you all the time. I don't get to spend as much time with Mom.

*PB:* That's all right. I understand. I'll renew the movie, if I can, and we'll watch it later.

And then, later... D13 is alone in her bedroom, listening to music and texting with her friends -- AXW had left an hour before to drive posOM home from work, and didn't return until sometime after 2 am.

I wish she could wake up and see what she's doing to the kids.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> Macklemore - Thrift Shop


Suit coat... $6
Dress shirt... $3
Pants... $4
Shoes... $5
Tie... Last year's Father Day gift from D13

"Looking good, Billy Ray!"


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> Suit coat... $6
> Dress shirt... $3
> Pants... $4
> Shoes... $5
> Tie... Last year's Father Day gift from D13
> 
> "Looking good, Billy Ray!"


bowchicawowow!


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> bowchicawowow!


I had D13 help me pick them out.

But 9 out of 10 suit coats on the rack at Goodwill were size "XL". Waaaaay too big. 

And apparently, I'm now proportioned like a chimpanzee... Just about anything that fits around my waist and chest has sleeve that are far too short for my arms.

I was lucky to find something that fit and didn't look something from the mid 70s.


----------



## Pbartender

Apparently, getting a picture of me while I'm dressed up is like trying to take a photo of Bigfoot. This is the best D13 could get...


----------



## zillard

Nice.

cold @ss ******!


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Nice.
> 
> cold @ss ******!


I'll wear your Granddad's clothes. I'll look incredible. I'm in this big ass coat from that thrift shop down the road.

I lurves me some 3-button suits and a good fedora. Suits my style just fine.

This is ****ing awesome.

D13's laughing at the blurry pictures she took of me, all the while singing:

_He's roller-coaster. He's got early warning. He's got muddy water. He's got mojo filter. He say, "One and one and one is three." Got to be good looking, 'cause he's so hard to see!_

Love that girl.


----------



## Awakening2012

Looking great! Very dashing, and you have a killer smile


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> I'll wear your Granddad's clothes. I'll look incredible. I'm in this big ass coat from that thrift shop down the road.
> 
> I lurves me some 3-button suits and a good fedora. Suits my style just fine.
> 
> This is ****ing awesome.
> 
> D13's looking laughing at the blurry pictures she took of me, all the while singing:
> 
> _He's roller-coaster. He's got early warning. He's got muddy water. He's got mojo filter. He say, "One and one and one is three." Got to be good looking, 'cause he's so hard to see!_
> 
> Love that girl.


Sounds like my D will be juuuussst fine.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Sounds like my D will be juuuussst fine.


And now she's dancing around the house to the Thrift Shop video playing on her cell phone.

_I'm gonna pop some tags... Only got twenty dollars in my pocket. I, I, I'm hunting, looking for a come-up. The next line's inappropriate!_

:rofl:


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> Very dashing, and you have a killer smile


Do you really think so?


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Sounds like my D will be juuuussst fine.


Oh hey... This is just for you, Z, for a limited time.

D13, back when she was still D7...


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> Oh hey... This is just for you, Z, for a limited time.
> 
> D13, back when she was still D7...


Adorable! Are you certain she was texting away to her bffs last night? Bet she's a handful! Var. Gps tracker. The works. Stat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Adorable! Are you certain she was texting away to her bffs last night? Bet she's a handful! Var. Gps tracker. The works. Stat.


Oh, just you wait, Z. Six and a half years later...


----------



## Pbartender

While I'm at it, here's me and S15 out Trick-or-treating for Halloween last fall...










These are the kids I'll be thinking about this afternoon, while I'm talking to the judge about custody schedules and child support.


----------



## zillard

Great kids PB! 

Good luck with the judge today.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> Oh, just you wait, Z. Six and a half years later...


Ha. She looks like a little scrapper!


----------



## Pluto2

Your girls are so lucky to have a father who cares so much! Stand tall.


----------



## Chuck71

PB thoughts are with you ........ BEST of luck


----------



## Pbartender

Pluto2 said:


> Your girls are so lucky to have a father who cares so much!


(don't tell my _son_ that!)



Done with work for the day. Lunch. Home. Shower. Suit. Courthouse.

If I'm not back by dinnertime... Avenge me!


----------



## Pbartender

Not quite as good as I'd hoped, but far, far better than most of us were expecting...

So... She was asking for statutory child support, but she would cover 100% school and extracurricular expenses.

With two kids, that'd be about $900/mo. child support to cover less than $200 worth of expenses.

I was asking for no child support, but I'd cover all the education expenses, plus the kids' cell phones.

So, after the whole shindig with the judge, my lawyer tells me about what happened...

They go into the back room, and he makes our case to the judge. AXW's attorney replies, "Yeah, I agree, that does make sense." :rofl:

Anyway, in the end, the judge's recommendation was to split the school expenses, and I'd pay AXW a relatively small amount... $100 or $200 per month, or thereabouts ...to help cover gas money for driving the kids around and junk like that.

In the end, it really doesn't get her anything --monetarily, it's equivalent to what I'd suggested, anyway  -- but it'll make her feel good about "winning" something.

Plus, we'll use it as leverage to get my student loan and car loan added into the retirement/debt payoff. If they agree to that, I'll be debt-free, except for the mortgage.


----------



## Pbartender

Heh... Almost forgot...

On my way home from work, I stopped by my favorite Greasy Spoon for lunch. I was still wearing my vintage thrift store ATARI shirt...










...as I was walking into the diner. I held the door open for a cute rocker-ish chick who was just leaving. As she walks by, she goes...

"Atari is the $h!t."









That... Made my day.


----------



## Pbartender

Librarian just texted me, asking how the court date went. We're still on for the concert tomorrow, and she's picking me up at 8.

:smthumbup:

MIL invited me and the kids to come up and visit this summer. Maybe I'll ask them to teach me to shoot, while I'm up there.

:smthumbup:

Meanwhile, AXW was trolling the Lover's Lane website this morning for "sexy costumes"... French Maid and School Girl seem to be her two favorites.

:rofl:


----------



## Chuck71

Pbartender said:


> Librarian just texted me, asking how the court date went. We're still on for the concert tomorrow, and she's picking me up at 8.
> 
> :smthumbup:
> 
> :rofl: told ya! and this one's aggressive!!!


----------



## GutPunch

Sexy librarian. Nothing better than that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

wasn't Rene Russo a librarian in the Major Leagues I episode? If I recall, Tom Berenger got her skirt off by admitting he read a book she suggested. Hmmmmm

:scratchhead:


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> Librarian just texted me, asking how the court date went. We're still on for the concert tomorrow, and she's picking me up at 8.
> 
> :smthumbup:


Scratch that...

She's picking me up at 5:30, and we're going to a backyard barbecue at her best friend's place before the concert.

:smthumbup:


----------



## ReGroup

Have fun my brother.

"A" Game!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Awakening2012

Hi PB -

Have fun! Your daughters are precious, and you are a great Dad. Sounds like things went fairly well in court. You'll land on your feet and then some!

Do report back on your date! 

Best, A12


----------



## zillard

Better and better. 

At least once you've got to put your finger to her lips and tell her to SHOOSH.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> Your daughters are precious, and you are a great Dad.


Why does everyone think I have daughters?  

Oh, my poor son. 



ReGroup said:


> Have fun my brother.
> 
> "A" Game!!!!


You know, I've discovered... My "A" Game is simply not worrying about having an "A" Game. Just like Z seems to be finding out, things tend progress farthest and fastest, when I relax, and enjoy myself, and stop trying so hard.

If something happens, it happens. And if it doesn't, I'm still having fun.


----------



## Awakening2012

Pbartender said:


> Why does everyone think I have daughters?
> 
> Oh, my poor son. 0


Hi PB -

Sorry You have son, too? I guess we have not heard as much about him or seen pic of him? Hope he is doing well!

Warm Regards, - A2 (who is burned out from CrossFit, so not in her sharpest state ofmind)


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> While I'm at it, here's me and S15 out Trick-or-treating for Halloween last fall...





Awakening2012 said:


> Sorry You have son, too? I guess we have not heard as much about him or seen pic of him? Hope he is doing well!


I've a daughter (D13) and a son (S15)... He's the one in the Centurion costume, in the picture above. Maybe it's time to get his hair cut. 

He's has high-functioning autism, so he keeps to himself more than D13, and with some symptoms very similar to Asperger's, he's got a pretty solitary social life, compared to her.

He's the one AXW was using to try and threaten me, when he overheard me talking on the phone with my mother, and AXW lied about his reaction to it.

He's the one who complained about AXW "forgetting to buy groceries".



Awakening2012 said:


> Do report back on your date!


It was a lot of fun... Librarian's BFF and BFF's Hubby are excellent cooks. They made perfect prime rib, with all the trimmings, and it was delicious. There was excellent conversation around the dinner, and everyone was friendly.

The band was great... A local band that played country, blues and some classic folk-rock. Had a few beers.

There was a bit of driving between home and dinner and band, so we had plenty of time for some deep conversation about relationships and divorce and life, the universe and everything. She'd had plenty of troubles of her own, including a messy divorce, so she was supportive, insightful and understanding.

Nothing else exciting happened. Her teenage daughter came along with her boyfriend, which put a damper on the possibilities, but... Before I left, she did make a point of asking about how long it would be until the divorce is final. She might be planning ahead. No worries. We'll see.

All in all, it was a fun night. Just nice to get out of the house and have a little fun with friendly people, after the long, stressful week.


----------



## Chuck71

keep in mind girls mature a lot faster in the teen years. I can't count the times I saw friends male children go from the shy, baseball card collecting, sports loving guy to a girl crazy guy trying to line up 11 dates in one day.

I will tell on myself here........I was 12 and still.....hated to have to shower. I went from 'take a shower or we will take turns busting your a$$' to taking three a day at 16. Dad would time me, if I took over five minutes he would start banging on the door.

Dad: You went from fighting he!! and half of Georgia to keep from a bath. Now you are about to kill the water heater. Why?

Me: Her name is xxxxxxxx. She's (he interrupts)

Dad: Oh sh!t....(shakes head and walks away)


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> keep in mind girls mature a lot faster in the teen years. I can't count the times I saw friends male children go from the shy, baseball card collecting, sports loving guy to a girl crazy guy trying to line up 11 dates in one day.


This goes farther than that... 

What I mean is, he has no friends, period. Either boys or girls. It's not because he couldn't... There's all sorts of kids who like him. He just isn't really interested in hanging out with other kids. He simply doesn't get the rules of social interaction -- they don't come naturally to him -- and it's too much effort for him to fit in with the other kids.


----------



## Pluto2

I have a nephew with Asperger's. He's always had a hard time maintaining friendships. Sadly, he also has some real anger management issues so my sister has her hand's full.


----------



## Pbartender

Pluto2 said:


> I have a nephew with Asperger's. He's always had a hard time maintaining friendships. Sadly, he also has some real anger management issues so my sister has her hand's full.


My son is not so different... Not with anger, but with emotion in general. He can a very difficult time regulating his feelings.

In the book _Peter Pan_, J. M. Barrie describes Tinker Bell...

"Tink was not all bad: or, rather, she was all bad just now, but, on the other hand, sometimes she was all good. Fairies have to be one thing or the other, because being so small they unfortunately have room for one feeling only at a time. They are, however, allowed to change, only it must be a complete change." 

...that's what my son's emotions are like. All or nothing. It can be tough. Especially with the way father-son relationships can go when they're teenagers and trying to assert their independence. Fortunately, he's got excellent teachers and counselors helping him along, and I've been getting some good advice and learning some new tricks from my counselor/therapist.

Now, he and I are getting along better than we ever have before.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Hang tough, PB, you're doing great.


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> Hang tough, PB, you're doing great.


Hey, thanks. I know I am. And I will.

It's just feeling like mile 18 of a marathon right now.

Since I can't donate blood anymore, I think I might start looking into tattoos. One of traditional sailor tats might be a appropriate for me to start with...












AXW is starting to look at houses and rentals again. Sounds like she's planning getting together with one of her Single Mom Toxic Friends, and either buying or renting a multi-unit house together or something like that. Thinks she can get it done by the end of July.

We'll see how that works out.


----------



## zillard

Hold Fast. I like it. 

Here's a piece I did of my bro's knucks.


----------



## Chuck71

What? AXW is not moving in with the POSOM scumbag of the year?

Maybe his mommy will not let him


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> What? AXW is not moving in with the POSOM scumbag of the year?
> 
> Maybe his mommy will not let him


"no, you can not keep that stray, boy. Let it go!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Hold Fast. I like it.
> 
> Here's a piece I did of my bro's knucks.


Very nice.

"HOLD FAST" is what the sailors on the old tall ships would get tattooed on their knuckles... It was supposed to give them strength and help them pull the ropes, lines and rigging, and to help them hang on to it, when the weather got rough.

The others I have in mind are a LOT geekier... 



Chuck71 said:


> What? AXW is not moving in with the POSOM scumbag of the year?
> 
> Maybe his mommy will not let him


I didn't see that happening, though... I don't see how being roommates with a girl friend who also has kids is going to turn out much better, either.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> "no, you can not keep that stray, boy. Let it go!"


Are you kidding? His Mom & Dad think she's the greatest!



Even though her ancestry is typical American mutt, AXW's maiden name was Irish, and she always made a big deal about being Irish. His family seems to be very thoroughly and very pridefully Irish, and so she's probably capitalized on that.


----------



## Chuck71

I doubt AXW has even considered the transition process for the kids in regards to her new living arrangement. Another D mom, kids........ that is going to be a very tough sell for your son. Me may balk at it and refuse to go.


----------



## Pbartender

Had a conversation with the kids about what was happening with the divorce last night. It was tough... A lot of hard questions, some of which I couldn't answer for them, others which I answered truthfully but very carefully.

It all started out with just the logistics... We talked about the schedule. We talked about how money would be tight for a while. We talked about AXW moving out, when she might she moving out and where she might be moving to.

Then the conversation moved on to... Mr. Lucky Charms. (So henceforth shall posOM be known!)

*S15:* Why _did_ she start dating Lucky?
*PB:* I don't know for certain... That's something you'd have to ask her.
*S15:* Hrm... hrm... (He's actually doing the little thoughtful finger-tapping thing on his chin. )
*PB:* What's up?
*S15:* Just thinking... Hrm...
*PB:* About what?
*S15:* Maybe she started dating Lucky, because she thought you were seeing someone.
*PB:* That could be, but I really don't know for sure. Just so you guys know, I haven't been dating anyone. I've been trying to go out and have some fun with friends a little more often... Kind of like how S13 likes to hang out with her friends at [Local Teenage Hangout] on Fridays. I've met a few women who might be interested, but I'm not _quite_ ready to really start dating anybody just yet.

Both D13 and S15 opened up just a little and admitted that they're a little uneasy about AXW dating Lucky... It's weird. It's strange. It's confusing. They're not used to it. It's bothers them both just a little, they say. I think it's probably bothering them more than they're letting on, and they just don't know how to talk about it... It's still too uncomfortable for them to really talk about how they're feeling about it.

Neither of them wants to think poorly of the mother they love dearly, and so they squash it, ignore it, and pretend nothing's wrong... they're learning to deal with problems just the same way she does. 

On the lighter side... D13 told me that when I do start dating, she's allowed to tease me about it just as much as I tease her about her boyfriend. 

She said, "Maybe I'll scare your girlfriends off! :lol: Boogey-boogey-boo! :rofl:"

That's a deal!


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> She said, "Maybe I'll scare your girlfriends off! :lol: Boogey-boogey-boo! :rofl:"
> 
> That's a deal!


:smthumbup:


----------



## Chuck71

Cereal day

Mr. Lucky Charms, meet Mrs. Trix

MT-I have two kids

MLC-I have two DUIs

MT-I have a car

MLC-I wrecked a car

MT-I am friends with many people

MLC-I am other people

Tune in tomorrow for word association on TAM


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> I doubt AXW has even considered the transition process for the kids


Kids?

What kids?


----------



## Chuck71

lol case rested


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> Cereal day
> 
> Mr. Lucky Charms, meet Mrs. Trix


Silly Pbar, Trix are for kids.

Wait, what?


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Kids?
> 
> What kids?


The ones she's going to be getting $200/mo support for.


----------



## Mavash.

Pbartender said:


> The ones she's going to be getting $200/mo support for.


At least they are good for something.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> :smthumbup:


Yeah... you said it... the girl's all spunk and moxie.

It was certainly an uplifting way to end the conversation, _and that's exactly what my daughter intended_.

She's been taking it upon herself to be the person in the family who makes sure everyone is happy, whether they want to be or not. She goes out of her way to try and cheer us (and she works especially hard on me) up.

She's absorbed some of my fixer tendencies.  She knows she can't fix the marriage or our family, but she seems to think that maybe she "fix" our feelings, at least.

I keep assuring her that my moods are not her fault, and it's not her responsibility to make me feel better. That its okay for me or her or any of us to feel sad or angry or lonely or whatever... It's only slowly sinking in, though, and she still keeps trying.


----------



## Chuck71

In your Ds eyes she is now the woman of the house. It is instinct. She is putting your son and you above herself. Has her and her brother's usual fighting between themselves decreased?


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> Has her and her brother's usual fighting between themselves decreased?


Not really... Though, their horse-play has been happening a little more frequently, and become sillier, more rambunctious.

Though, I have noticed, for example, that when he slacks off on his chores, she'll have a tendency to complain, she will nag him, try to boss him into doing it, and eventually do the job for him... Instead of just letting him suffer the consequences himself, and all the while she's neglecting her own chores.

Classic fixer behavior on a teenage level.

Then again, it could just be her being a 13-year-old girl.


----------



## Pbartender

Wow... It's been a week. All's quiet on the Western Front.

A few interesting tidbits...

Months ago, AXW had talked about having plans for Memorial Day weekend with the kids. Everybody thought she was planning on taking the kids to her company picnic, like she's done every year since she worked there.

*D13:* Hey Mom, when do we need to be ready for the picnic tomorrow?
*AXW:* Hm? You guys are staying home...
*D13:*  We're not going along?
*AXW:* You'll be with your Dad.
*PB:* I didn't make any plans with the kids, because we all thought you were taking them to the picnic.
*AXW:* Well, if you didn't have any plans... Then I'll just take them to the picnic with me.
*D13:* 
*PB:* 

How magnanimous of her to do what she said she was going to do. This is something that's been happening a lot, since I filed... since I stopped taking responsibility for reminding her of her responsibilities. She makes a plan far ahead of time. For gets her plans. Makes new plans. And then either A) disappoints everyone at the last minute with the new plans, or B) acts as if she's doing everyone a big favor when she goes back to her original plan because that's what everyone else had planned for.

:banghead:

Another example... D13 had an Orchestra concert and then a Chorus concert on subsequent nights this week. Both AXW and I are on the school's mailing list, and have gotten weekly email reminders about the two concerts for the last month. I was signed up to help chaperone the students before and during the concerts...

The night before the first concert, D13 asks AXW about it. AXW didn't know about the concerts at all... She was working for the Orchestra concert... can't reschedule on such short notice... and was planning on going out with friends after... can't make it.

D13... 

And what about the Chorus concert? She's working... but she's getting home early... Maybe she can make that one... (In the end, she was at home in time and could have gone to the Chorus concert, but didn't.)

D13... 

My left overs are still disappearing from the fridge...

She could have sat down and eaten with us, when I made those sausages I showed off in Soca's thread. She didn't. Later, one of the two remaining sausages and half the left over potatoes vanished.

Last night, I made grilled steaks with red beans and rice. Again, she was home and could have sat down to dinner with us, but declined... Had a bowl of snack mix instead. After dinner, there was just enough food left for me to take to work for lunch today. But this morning it was gone.

How is she going to feed herself, let alone the kids, once she leaves? 

In the meantime, I met a woman about a week ago, we've been chatting about all sorts of things ever since... We've got a first date tonight to see how things go.

I'm looking forward to it.


----------



## tom67

Good have fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Best of luck with new gal!!!!!!!

AXW should be tested...... by Mrs. ReG.

Love to see those results


----------



## Awakening2012

Pbartender said:


> In the meantime, I met a woman about a week ago, we've been chatting about all sorts of things ever since... We've got a first date tonight to see how things go. I'm looking forward to it.


Go Mr. PBar! Take it easy and have fun! :smthumbup:


----------



## Awakening2012

Pbar, I saw this and thought you might fancy it:

Nothing To Cook For Breakfast? Make Breakfast Anyway - Amateur Gourmet


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> Pbar, I saw this and thought you might fancy it:
> 
> Nothing To Cook For Breakfast? Make Breakfast Anyway - Amateur Gourmet


Oooh... Fantastic. Thanks for the link. I do stuff like that all the time... Takes some old left overs, mix them together and turn them into somethign new.

I'm also fond of this one: Thug Kitchen

Oh, I almost forgot... Something else I noticed in the last few weeks... When AXW and I are both at home, I go about my day-to-day business as normal. If we happen to meet, she will look down at her toes or back over her shoulder (never directly at me!) and steps to the side to let me through. She's been going out of her way to avoid me and stay out of my way... I don't even have to stop or slow down as I walk through... she does it almost automatically.

Wow.


----------



## Bullwinkle

You're a trooper, PB. Don't know where you find the strength.


----------



## Awakening2012

Hi Pbar - 

LOL -- thanks, "Thug Kitchen" is awesome!

Lord have mercy, how do you co-exist like that under the same roof with AXW, and how much longer before you will be living apart? Sorry, I should know this from your thread but can't recall. 

Wow, is right -- it speaks volumes of your dedication and commitment as a Dad that you've mustered the strength not leave the domicile yourself than live like that. (((((Applause!!!!!)))))

Best,- A12


----------



## Pbartender

Thanks, guys... I attribute it to a combination of my hereditary German-Austrian determination and very carefully harnessed ADHD hyperfocus.

I'm simply too stubborn to quit, when I set my mind to it.

I can't be certain right now, A12... Hopefully, it won't be too much longer. Just another month or two, if I'm lucky.

I just found it interesting... Now that things are starting to wind to a close, things haven't exactly gone the way she's expected, and I've stood my ground... She's still withdrawn... Perhaps more so, than before... But her previous defiance and indignation is gone... Now, it's just submission and avoidance...

It just hit me... When things were at their worst, that's what I _used_ to be like around her.


----------



## Awakening2012

Pbartender said:


> But her previous defiance and indignation is gone... Now, it's just submission and avoidance...
> It just hit me... When things were at their worst, that's what I _used_ to be like around her.


Wow, tremendous insight! Amazing transformation, isn't it? Your grit, courage and determination have been an inspiration. No question, you and your kids are going to land on your feet.


----------



## Chuck71

PB...... seems things did not turn out the way AXW planned. 

That seems to occur often on TAM these days


----------



## Awakening2012

Chuck71 said:


> PB...... seems things did not turn out the way AXW planned.
> 
> That seems to occur often on TAM these days


I wonder, what did AXW plan exactly -- what did she expect would happen?


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> Go Mr. PBar! Take it easy and have fun! :smthumbup:


Got a parking ticket for leaving my car parked on the street overnight... Worth it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> I wonder, what did AXW plan exactly -- what did she expect would happen?


She expected that I would continue being her doormat.
She expected to get primary physical custody of the kids.
She expected to get full statutory child support.
She expected me to roll over without a fight.
She expected to have a stampede of Prince Charming's beating down her door.
She expected she would be a better single Mom than her mother was.
She expected all her problems to go away if only she got rid of me.
She expected all her problems would go away if only she had more money.
She expected me to be lonely and miserable.
She expected to be happy.


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> PB...... seems things did not turn out the way AXW planned.
> 
> That seems to occur often on TAM these days


Ah, but those "options" she now has.


----------



## Awakening2012

Wow, Pbar - She sure set her "expectations" somewhere in another Universe! Game, match, set = Pbar!

Best,- A12


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> Wow, Pbar - She sure set her "expectations" somewhere in another Universe!


I'm pretty sure her expectations were set from watching too many Romantic comedies, and that they were encouraged by Single Moms Who Got Divorced More Than Ten Years Ago.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> I'm pretty sure her expectations were set from watching too many Romantic comedies, and that they were encouraged by Single Moms Who Got Divorced More Than Ten Years Ago.


Don't forget POSOM.


----------



## Chuck71

Pbartender said:


> She expected that I would continue being her doormat.
> She expected to get primary physical custody of the kids.
> She expected to get full statutory child support.
> She expected me to roll over without a fight.
> She expected to have a stampede of Prince Charming's beating down her door.
> She expected she would be a better single Mom than her mother was.
> She expected all her problems to go away if only she got rid of me.
> She expected all her problems would go away if only she had more money.
> She expected me to be lonely and miserable.
> She expected to be happy.




0 for 10, 7 SO .......... AXW you are demoted to the minors


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> Don't forget POSOM.


I honestly don't think Lucky contributed to her expectations... Knowing what I do about him, it doesn't seem like he'd have the balls or the brains to be a "Idea Man", relationship-wise. At best, I don't think he's more than a "Yes Man" to her. From his point of view, I think he simply considers himself, just like I used to, as a loser who is lucky to have her, because it means he's getting laid on regular basis and without much effort.

I think he's a direct result of her expectations. And I think he will be a large part of the eventual and inevitable disillusionment of some of her expectations.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> I honestly don't think Lucky contributed to her expectations... Knowing what I do about him, it doesn't seem like he'd have the balls or the brains to be a "Idea Man", relationship-wise. At best, I don't think he's more than a "Yes Man" to her. From his point of view, I think he simply considers himself, just like I used to, as a loser who is lucky to have her, because it means he's getting laid on regular basis and without much effort.
> 
> I think he's a direct result of her expectations. And I think he will be a large part of the eventual and inevitable disillusionment of some of her expectations.


Maybe you're right. But it showed her that she could find someone else. Without the "responsibilities" attached.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> I honestly don't think Lucky contributed to her expectations... Knowing what I do about him, it doesn't seem like he'd have the balls or the brains to be a "Idea Man", relationship-wise. At best, I don't think he's more than a "Yes Man" to her. From his point of view, I think he simply considers himself, just like I used to, as a loser who is lucky to have her, because it means he's getting laid on regular basis and without much effort.
> 
> I think he's a direct result of her expectations. And I think he will be a large part of the eventual and inevitable disillusionment of some of her expectations.


He got the goods.

What else was he in it for?


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> Maybe you're right. But it showed her that she could find someone else. Without the "responsibilities" attached.


Perhaps... I was referring to people who were actively encouraging her in her delusions of grandeur... Her Toxic Friends were whispering in her ears about what she "deserved" to get out the divorce and how much I "owed" her.

And, oh hey... And my wine-taster messaged back yesterday evening, asking if I had plans for today... So, this afternoon, we ended up sharing a pizza, got some ice cream cones, took a walk along the river, and browsed through the local record shop (racks of honest-to-god vinyl records... makes me want to get a turntable). All the while we were having one long conversation... serious, humorous and otherwise. We both had a pretty good time.

This feels different... Not in an "Oh! It's so special! We're meant to be together! Tra-la-la-de-da!" sort of way... This feels nothing like the usual crush you get at the beginning of a relationship... It just feels... 

Normal. Comfortable. Chillaxed. 

It feels good. But it also feels just a little weird. It's what a relationship _should_ feel like, but it's not what I'm _used_ to. Deep down underneath, it's got me on guard, just a little bit... I'll have to keep an eye on that.

Heh, and yeah... one awkward moment... We were walking along holding hands, when we ran into the parents of one of D13's best friends.  Whoops!  Oh well... It was bound to get out sooner or later, and AXW was already spreading rumors to that effect about me anyway.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Perhaps... I was referring to people who were actively encouraging her in her delusions of grandeur... Her Toxic Friends were whispering in her ears about what she "deserved" to get out the divorce and how much I "owed" her.
> 
> And, oh hey... And my wine-taster messaged back yesterday evening, asking if I had plans for today... So, this afternoon, we ended up sharing a pizza, got some ice cream cones, took a walk along the river, and browsed through the local record shop (racks of honest-to-god vinyl records... makes me want to get a turntable). All the while we were having one long conversation... serious, humorous and otherwise. We both had a pretty good time.
> 
> This feels different... Not in an "Oh! It's so special! We're meant to be together! Tra-la-la-de-da!" sort of way... This feels nothing like the usual crush you get at the beginning of a relationship... It just feels...
> 
> Normal. Comfortable. Chillaxed.
> 
> It feels good. But it also feels just a little weird. It's what a relationship _should_ feel like, but it's not what I'm _used_ to. Deep down underneath, it's got me on guard, just a little bit... I'll have to keep an eye on that.
> 
> Heh, and yeah... one awkward moment... We were walking along holding hands, when we ran into the parents of one of D13's best friends.  Whoops!  Oh well... It was bound to get out sooner or later, and AXW was already spreading rumors to that effect about me anyway.


I'm glad you had some fun PB. 

Let's see how long it takes to get back to AXW.


----------



## Peeps678

Pbartender said:


> Perhaps... I was referring to people who were actively encouraging her in her delusions of grandeur... Her Toxic Friends were whispering in her ears about what she "deserved" to get out the divorce and how much I "owed" her.
> 
> And, oh hey... And my wine-taster messaged back yesterday evening, asking if I had plans for today... So, this afternoon, we ended up sharing a pizza, got some ice cream cones, took a walk along the river, and browsed through the local record shop (racks of honest-to-god vinyl records... makes me want to get a turntable). All the while we were having one long conversation... serious, humorous and otherwise. We both had a pretty good time.
> 
> This feels different... Not in an "Oh! It's so special! We're meant to be together! Tra-la-la-de-da!" sort of way... This feels nothing like the usual crush you get at the beginning of a relationship... It just feels...
> 
> Normal. Comfortable. Chillaxed.
> 
> It feels good. But it also feels just a little weird. It's what a relationship _should_ feel like, but it's not what I'm _used_ to. Deep down underneath, it's got me on guard, just a little bit... I'll have to keep an eye on that.
> 
> Heh, and yeah... one awkward moment... We were walking along holding hands, when we ran into the parents of one of D13's best friends.  Whoops!  Oh well... It was bound to get out sooner or later, and AXW was already spreading rumors to that effect about me anyway.


Sounds like you had a pretty good weekend PB. :smthumbup:


----------



## Bullwinkle

Yes, PB, that image of you two holding hands will spread like wildfire.


----------



## Chuck71

AXW likes Rumors......send her a Fleetwood Mac CD...that skips

congrats on the date! did you walk the river like rob lowe and 

demi moore on About Last Night???


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> did you walk the river like rob lowe and demi moore on About Last Night???


I don't think I've ever seen that movie... I might have to look it up.


----------



## Pbartender

Okay. Get a load of this...

Just now, as I was finishing up cooking dinner, AXW walks in with an armload of fast food from the food court of the store she works at... Hotdogs, churros, sodas, stuff like that. "Oh," she says, "I thought the kids would have told you I was bringing dinner home."

"You shouldn't be using the kids as messengers," I tell her. "If you have something you want me to know, then you can tell me. You have my phone number, and can call or text."

She replied, "I wasn't using them as messengers... I just thought they'd tell you."

Wait... what?

I couldn't believe she said that. I was completely dumbfounded. It was all I could do to repeat what I'd just said... and she then she walked out of the kitchen.

I've got to remember that one...

"I wasn't using you as a punching bag... I just thought I'd hit you in the face with my fists."

Wow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

Lady has her head so far up her azz she doesn't know when she's contradicting herself.

At this point, we shouldn't be surprised.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bullwinkle

Did she leave the churros, at least?


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> Did she leave the churros, at least?


Yep... they were great with a fresh cup of coffee.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

Bringing food home seems out of character for her. You cook every night. 

I know, you've inspired me to do the same. 

What do you make of this?


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> Bringing food home seems out of character for her. You cook every night.


I don't EVERY night... but lately I end up cooking most nights, otherwise there'd be nothing to eat.

It's not as out of character as you might think... On her nights off, when she stays home, she often orders food or gets some kind of take out. If she doesn't, she just pops something frozen in the oven. As with most things, it allows her to feels like she contributing without actually doing any work for it. 

Plus, it's the only way she can provide food that competes with my cooking. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Plus, it's the only way she can provide food that competes with my cooking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not likely.


----------



## Peeps678

Pbartender said:


> Yep... they were great with a fresh cup of coffee.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And you didn't share? Ruuuude


----------



## Chuck71

Reminds me when ex left pizza for me during separation

was in the oven, her email said you can have it but save me one piece

I had a three day wait until I opened her emails

oops! LOL sorry

it was meant as a peace offering

since I had started leaving the house several days at a time

but as Megadeath sang, 'peace (offering) sells, but I'm not buying"


----------



## Pbartender

Peeps678 said:


> And you didn't share? Ruuuude


You wouldn't have wanted any... they tasted of disaffected spite. The only reason they went so well with the coffee, is because the coffee was cold and bitter with a little bit of grit at the bottom.


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> Reminds me when ex left pizza for me during separation
> 
> was in the oven, her email said you can have it but save me one piece
> 
> I had a three day wait until I opened her emails
> 
> oops! LOL sorry


:rofl:


----------



## Pbartender

The check AXW used to pay for that IUD bounced...

:rofl:


----------



## Pbartender

Last night, I cooked one of my usual simple home-cooked meals for the kids. S15 was remarkably excited about what seemed like a thoroughly ordinary dinner to me... He explained that it was nice to have some "real food", because they'd so much "junk food" for lunch and dinner lately.

Also, since my kids are almost as much geeks as I am, we're giving this a try... Chore Wars ...It's kind of fun. I'm offering real rewards, prizes and privileges for turning in the treasure that they earn while "adventuring". I've never seen my kids so... eager? ...to do chores and help out around the house.


----------



## Chuck71

Pbartender said:


> The check AXW used to pay for that IUD bounced...
> 
> :rofl:


I am stealing this from Bill & Ted

Most awesom!

:rofl:


----------



## Pluto2

Pbartender said:


> Last night, I cooked one of my usual simple home-cooked meals for the kids. S15 was remarkably excited about what seemed like a thoroughly ordinary dinner to me... He explained that it was nice to have some "real food", because they'd so much "junk food" for lunch and dinner lately.
> 
> Also, since my kids are almost as much geeks as I am, we're giving this a try... Chore Wars ...It's kind of fun. I'm offering real rewards, prizes and privileges for turning in the treasure that they earn while "adventuring". I've never seen my kids so... eager? ...to do chores and help out around the house.


What a great tip. Think I might try this with my D16 and D12. Thanks for the idea.


----------



## Chuck71

Hope you are aware how far you have came since your first thread

and how much AXW has backslid

It reveals a lot when after the ex wife leaves

how much further your money goes

blows that single parent family BS out of the water

I have to tip my ball cap to you and your cooking

I enjoy cooking about a dozen things, am very good at those

but kinda stink at the rest, when yours is over

are you printing "Cooking for Guys on TAM"?


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> I enjoy cooking about a dozen things, am very good at those
> 
> but kinda stink at the rest, when yours is over
> 
> are you printing "Cooking for Guys on TAM"?


I will... but in deference to my dearly departed father, I'm going to title it "Alice's Restaurant".


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> The check AXW used to pay for that IUD bounced...
> 
> :rofl:


There is a very good joke here somewhere - just can't quite nail it.


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> There is a very good joke here somewhere


Her name's Almost Ex Wife.



Ceegee said:


> just can't quite nail it.


And neither could I... At least, not in the last year or so... If you know what I mean... And I think you do.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Her name's Almost Ex Wife.
> 
> 
> 
> And neither could I... At least, not in the last year or so... If you know what I mean... And I think you do.


I set 'em up; you knock 'em down.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> The check AXW used to pay for that IUD bounced...
> 
> :rofl:


Will it get repo'd?


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> Will it get repo'd?


Would you want a used IUD from AXW? Nooooooooot me!

:rofl:


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Will it get repo'd?


Next time on Operation Repo...

I think I'd have to watch that episode.


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> The check AXW used to pay for that IUD bounced...
> 
> :rofl:


She came back home about an hour ago, after her usual couple days worth of disappearing act. She spent most of it trolling through her insurance company's website... She's got a flexible spending account. Maybe she was trying to figure out how to pay with it.

She didn't look very happy when she was done, so I figure either she couldn't or she didn't have enough in the account.

Tough luck.


----------



## Awakening2012

Hey, Pbar -

For consideration, as part of the Pbar culinary school, here's an easy nutritious make-ahead breakfast idea. Whisk together a dozen eggs, add any number of chopped or shredded fillings (cheddar, bacon, ham, feta, spinach, sun dried tomatoes -- what have you). Fill non-stick sprayed muffin tin cups 3/4 full with the mixture, and bake at 375 for 25 minutes. Voila! Leftovers easily re-heated in the microwave for a grab and go breakfast.

View attachment 5081


----------



## Northern Monkey

I like the look of that A12, simple but tasty.


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> Hey, Pbar -
> 
> For consideration, as part of the Pbar culinary school, here's an easy nutritious make-ahead breakfast idea. Whisk together a dozen eggs, add any number of chopped or shredded fillings (cheddar, bacon, ham, feta, spinach, sun dried tomatoes -- what have you). Fill non-stick sprayed muffin tin cups 3/4 full with the mixture, and bake at 375 for 25 minutes. Voila! Leftovers easily re-heated in the microwave for a grab and go breakfast.


They're like little mini frittatas. I like that. And they'd be just about the right size to make them into English muffin or bagel sandwiches.

It's very similar how you cook shirred eggs, the main difference being that you don't scramble them... Crack one whole egg into each greased muffin tin cup, and top with a bit of shredded cheese. Bake at 375F for 25-30 minutes.


----------



## Peeps678

Awakening2012 said:


> Hey, Pbar -
> 
> For consideration, as part of the Pbar culinary school, here's an easy nutritious make-ahead breakfast idea. Whisk together a dozen eggs, add any number of chopped or shredded fillings (cheddar, bacon, ham, feta, spinach, sun dried tomatoes -- what have you). Fill non-stick sprayed muffin tin cups 3/4 full with the mixture, and bake at 375 for 25 minutes. Voila! Leftovers easily re-heated in the microwave for a grab and go breakfast.
> 
> View attachment 5081


That looks delicious! I'm sooo going to make that..definitely tossing bacon in it. Lol


----------



## Awakening2012

I had broccoli I needed to use before it went bad, so I chopped that up finely and threw it in with some shredded cheddar and diced pre-cooked bacon. Never thought broccoli could be appetizing in an egg dish, but it turned out tasty, so I guess the cheese and bacon compensated


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> I had broccoli I needed to use before it went bad, so I chopped that up finely and threw it in with some shredded cheddar and diced pre-cooked bacon. Never thought broccoli could be appetizing in an egg dish, but it turned out tasty, so I guess the cheese and bacon compensated


It's actually one of the more common fillers for quiche... If you liked the broccoli, try asparagus or spinach with swiss cheese.

In the meantime, Bullwinkle's got me hankering for cookies... Gotta go bake some chocolate chips.


----------



## Peeps678

Pbartender said:


> It's actually one of the more common fillers for quiche... If you liked the broccoli, try asparagus or spinach with swiss cheese.
> 
> In the meantime, Bullwinkle's got me hankering for cookies... Gotta go bake some chocolate chips.


Are you going to share these? I'm sure these will taste better than your "spite" churros. Haha


----------



## Awakening2012

Great ideas! So many variations with the quiche and frittata fillings. What's the difference between a frittata and a muffuletta? 

Real men do make quiche (and cookies) and are the sexier for it!


----------



## Ceegee

Awakening2012 said:


> Great ideas! So many variations with the quiche and frittata fillings. What's the difference between a frittata and a muffuletta?
> 
> Real men do make quiche (and cookies) and are the sexier for it!


Just don't wear an apron.


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> Great ideas! So many variations with the quiche and frittata fillings. What's the difference between a frittata and a muffuletta?


A frittata is kind of like an Italian open-face broiled omelet, or a crustless quiche.

A muffeletta is a type of fococcia-like Sicilian bread. It's often used to make a variety of Italian sub sandwich of the same name. The sandwich originates from immigrants in the French Quarter of New Orleans.



Awakening2012 said:


> Real men do make quiche (and cookies) and are the sexier for it!


Real men don't make quiche... They make *EGG PIE*!


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> Just don't wear an apron.


I wear a lab coat.


----------



## Pbartender

Interesting observations...

S15 and I went grocery shopping on Friday... He was extremely eager to go with me. Both he and S13 had made particular requests... especially along the lines of fresh fruit and veggies. Later, after we got home, and cooked dinner, he was surprisingly excited about that, too. I asked him what was going on, and he said that they'd been eating a lot of junk food and fast food lately... said he was glad to have real food in the house again. 

I had bought some tortillas and fixings to make tacos for dinner one night this week... On Sunday, AXW shows back up after a 2-day disappearing act. I walk into the kitchen to find her making microwaved quesdillas with the tortillas and cheese I'd bought. I didn't say anything right then -- I was a little too mad to confront her and still stay cool, detached and dispassionate. I settled on giving her the "Dad" look stared directly into her eyes, and a very pointed look at her plate of food.  She just looked at her toes, and left the kitchen.

Later, once I'd regained my cool, I confronted her... I simply let her know that it was no longer acceptable for her to be living there for free. That if she's going to continue living at home, she needed to chip in for the food, water, heat and electricity that she's using. She huffed at me, and ignored me. I left it at that. 

Took the day off of work yesterday, so I could take S15 to his pre-high school physical exam... He snacks too much, doesn't exercise enough, and needs to blow his nose more (just like his Dad's been telling him  ). Other than that, he's doing pretty good, though. 

AXW also had the day off, and suddenly decided that she, too, wanted to make a home-cooked meal. She made lunch for the kids... at 10:30 am... I'd made a big breakfast for S15 just two hours before, and D13 was still sleeping. Anyway, she cooked up some chopped beef in plain white gravy and slopped it over rice. S13 ate a little of hers but fed the rest to the dogs, and then she went and ate up the leftover al pesto pasta I'd made for dinner the night before. :rofl:

I had another date planned with my new girlfriend (Ha! There! I said it!  ) for later in the evening... But neither of us was doing anything and AXW was home for the day. So, we met up earlier and spent the whole afternoon together, before grabbing some dinner, taking another walk along the river, and then going to see _The Princess Bride_ at a second-run theater. It was a very good day. 

In the midst of the extra-long date, D13 texted me... she wanted to ask if I could bring get some marshmallows, because she's got a friend coming to visit tomorrow night, and they wanted to make fire in the backyard and toast marshmallows. GF remarks, "Interesting that she's texting you about it... Isn't your ex at home?" Yep... She sure was.

Finally, I sent an email to my attorney asking if we'd heard back from the other team... We'd sent them a revised draft of the settlement agreements, and have been waiting on their response, so we could pin down the last few details. My lawyer hadn't heard from them, despite pestering them... but our next court date is a week from Friday... and he thought this would all be settled by now... so he suggested that we go ahead with a petition for temporary child support... maybe that will light a fire under their asses. I was planning on suggesting that to him myself, so I told him to go ahead with it.

I'm kind of curious to see how they react to that...


----------



## Ceegee

All good stuff PB. 

Btw, any date that includes Princess Bride is a good date.


----------



## Conrad

Pbar,

The temporary order is long long overdue.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Pbar,
> 
> The temporary order is long long overdue.


Yeah, I know... Had I realized it was a possibility, I would have had it done months ago back when I filed for divorce.

But back then, we didn't really have any evidence to back it up... And by the time we did, it looked like we were almost done and ready to finalize, and my attorney didn't want to use money on it unless we had to.


----------



## Conrad

She is a cake eater of highest order.

More than willing to live off you like a parasite and tramp it up with posOM right in front of your children.

Disgusting.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> She is a cake eater of highest order.
> 
> More than willing to live off you like a parasite and tramp it up with posOM right in front of your children.
> 
> Disgusting.


I won't argue with that.

Furthermore, the children have noticed it, too... even if it's just on a sort of subconscious level.


----------



## Peeps678

Wow PB! Things are really looking up for you!! Sounds like you and your "schmoopy" get along nicely!! And good luck with the temporary Child Support. You definitely deserve it. Keep us posted!


----------



## ReGroup

Woman makes me sick to my stomach.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> Woman makes me sick to my stomach.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Familiarity breeds contempt


----------



## Ceegee

In the meantime, padlock the pantry, refrigerator and cupboards.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> She is a cake eater of highest order.
> 
> More than willing to live off you like a parasite and tramp it up with posOM right in front of your children.
> 
> Disgusting.


I concur. This is what gets me.

What kind of woman mooches off of the man she's cheating on, and doesn't even attempt to conceal her actions from her children?!

That question is rhetorical. I know the answer. Still, though...reading your last update makes my blood boil. Making a quesadilla on YOU? No, sir. She would have been wearing it.


----------



## BURNT KEP

Ceegee said:


> In the meantime, padlock the pantry, refrigerator and cupboards.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Pbartender

HappyKaty said:


> That question is rhetorical. I know the answer. Still, though...reading your last update makes my blood boil. Making a quesadilla on YOU? No, sir. She would have been wearing it.


Yep, you've got that right, Katy... And that's it's why it was so important for me to NOT do something like that... As much as I might want to -- and I wanted to, oh boy, I wanted -- at this point, I simply can't afford to react that way.

A reaction like that would have just ended up as ammunition against me.


----------



## Pbartender

Peeps678 said:


> Wow PB! Things are really looking up for you!! Sounds like you and your "schmoopy" get along nicely!!


She made banana bread for me... :smthumbup:


----------



## Peeps678

Pbartender said:


> She made banana bread for me... :smthumbup:


And you didn't die from it?? She's a keeper!!


----------



## Pbartender

Peeps678 said:


> And you didn't die from it?? She's a keeper!!


I think maybe you need to develop some higher standards for "keepers", Peeps...


----------



## Peeps678

Pbartender said:


> I think maybe you need to develop some higher standards for "keepers", Peeps...


Thats quite possible...haha....any suggestions on how to do that?


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> I think maybe you need to develop some higher standards for "keepers", Peeps...


She's in this forum.

A need for higher standards is the theme that brings us together.

Both for us and for them.


----------



## tom67

What are you making for the big hockey game on wed? My mouth is drooling already.


----------



## Pbartender

Peeps678 said:


> Thats quite possible...haha....any suggestions on how to do that?





Conrad said:


> She's in this forum.
> 
> A need for higher standards is the theme that brings us together.


There you go, Peeps... That's your answer right there.


----------



## Pbartender

tom67 said:


> What are you making for the big hockey game on wed? My mouth is drooling already.


Hockey game? What hockey game?


----------



## Peeps678

Pbartender said:


> Hockey game? What hockey game?


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> Btw, any date that includes Princess Bride is a good date.


The funny thing is, now, as I was watching the movie, all I could think was how terribly dysfunctional and codependent the "True Love" between Westley and Buttercup was...

I mean, come on... "As you wish?" Really? She treats you like **** and you keep doing everything she says. Man up, and tell her what you want, already.

Then, he disappears for five years... She thinks he's dead (but he wasn't and probably could have come back to let her know a LOT sooner) and sort of moves on... He comes back out of nowhere, and starts crapping on her for finding a new dysfunctional relationship after futilely waiting for him for five years.

True Love? Hardly.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> The funny thing is, now, as I was watching the movie, all I could think was how terribly dysfunctional and codependent the "True Love" between Westley and Buttercup was...
> 
> I mean, come on... "As you wish?" Really? She treats you like **** and you keep doing everything she says. Man up, and tell her what you want, already.
> 
> Then, he disappears for five years... She thinks he's dead (but he wasn't and probably could have come back to let her know a LOT sooner) and sort of moves on... He comes back out of nowhere, and starts crapping on her for finding a new dysfunctional relationship after futilely waiting for him for five years.
> 
> True Love? Hardly.


No longer believing Hollywood's emasculating lies?

Sounds like better times lie ahead!


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> No longer believing Hollywood's emasculating lies?
> 
> Sounds like better times lie ahead!


It's what the movie looks like from 50,000 feet.

You know, now that I come to think of it... Miracle Max and Valerie... THAT's where the true love in that story really is.

:smthumbup:


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> It's what the movie looks from 50,000 feet.
> 
> You know, now that I come to think of it... Miracle Max and Valerie... THAT's where the true love in that story really is.
> 
> :smthumbup:


Have you seen Blue Valentine?

Hollywood let the truth slip through the cracks on that one.

Happens every 5 years or so.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Have you seen Blue Valentine?


Nope... But I just put it on hold at the local library.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Nope... But I just put it on hold at the local library.


Not one to watch with a date.

It's for you.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Not one to watch with a date.
> 
> It's for you.


Yeah... just checked out the plot synopsis... already figured that one out.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Yeah... just checked out the plot synopsis... already figured that one out.


The force is strong with this one


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> The force is strong with this one


_"You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."_


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> _"You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."_


You need to watch that one tonight when she tries to steal another quesadilla.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> Have you seen Blue Valentine?
> 
> Hollywood let the truth slip through the cracks on that one.
> 
> Happens every 5 years or so.


Don't do it, Pb. I was dehydrated, after watching that movie.


----------



## Pbartender

Just to back track a bit, before I forget what I'm thinking. Posting in Soca's thread, I was thinking on this...



Conrad said:


> She is a cake eater of highest order.
> 
> More than willing to live off you like a parasite and tramp it up with posOM right in front of your children.
> 
> Disgusting.


...AXW is entrenched. Deeply.

And that is, in all honesty, my own fault. Despite all evidence to the contrary, I had trusted her to be respectful and play nice, if I treated her fairly and honestly. I did, and she didn't.

Now I'll just have to eat those goddamn lemons, do the best I can with what I have, and make sure it doesn't happen again.


----------



## Peeps678

Pbartender said:


> Now I'll just have to eat those goddamn lemons, do the best I can with what I have, and make sure it doesn't happen again.


I'll bring the sugar and we can make lemonade.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Just to back track a bit, before I forget what I'm thinking. Posting in Soca's thread, I was thinking on this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...AXW is entrenched. Deeply.
> 
> And that is, in all honesty, my own fault. Despite all evidence to the contrary, I had trusted her to be respectful and play nice, if I treated her fairly and honestly. I did, and she didn't.
> 
> Now I'll just have to eat those goddamn lemons, do the best I can with what I have, and make sure it doesn't happen again.


She and Soca's X could be sisters.


----------



## Pbartender

Peeps678 said:


> I'll bring the sugar and we can make lemonade.


As my dearly departed father used to say...

When life give you lemons, shut up and eat your goddamn lemons.


----------



## Chuck71

PB Her actions are why I posted the comment pertaining to Susan Smith a month ago. She had young children, not teens. But her erratic behavior is comparable to AXW, in regards to putting an alcoholic in front of her children. Dismissing the children were not intended, I should have elaborated more and I apologize. 

In a sense, she enjoys sponging off you and throwing herself at someone else. She is relishing in her "sltu ways." The child support may make her close ranks and settle, get everything out of the way. Which I am certain would satisfy you 110%.

I mentioned when my ex left, one of two things will happen. She will crawl back broke or wh0re herself out to someone. Well she found her "soul mate" LOL and moved 500 miles away. Had I wanted to sometime down the road, work things out, yes it would have bothered me. But I do not. I still pity her but that is it. 

The kids are aware, your daughter is aware a lot more than you realize. I wish you the best of luck with new gal. I think you and her have a much better chance than AXW and Mr. DUI


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> PB Her actions are why I posted the comment pertaining to Susan Smith a month ago. She had young children, not teens. But her erratic behavior is comparable to AXW, in regards to putting an alcoholic in front of her children. Dismissing the children were not intended, I should have elaborated more and I apologize.


I getcha... No worries. It just hit me the wrong way the first time around.


----------



## Pbartender

The Petition for Support is ready to go...

*WHEREFORE*, PBARTENDER respectfully requests this Honorable Court enter an Order requiring both parties to pay fifty (50%) percent of any and all marital bills and expenses up to the date of Dissolution of this matter and grant to him all other relief that is just and equitable.

_"This will either 1) push them to respond to our settlement position or 2) make AXW mad and we start over or something close to it."_


----------



## Bullwinkle

PB -

I'm always in favor of the Pissing Them Off position. You know my views well, a divorce SHOULD be rancorous and nasty, the way God intended it.


----------



## Awakening2012

WHEREFORE, Pbartender is awesome! Go team Pbar!


----------



## Awakening2012

Bullwinkle said:


> PB -
> 
> I'm always in favor of the Pissing Them Off position. You know my views well, a divorce SHOULD be rancorous and nasty, the way God intended it.


LOL! You are too funny!


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> PB -
> 
> I'm always in favor of the Pissing Them Off position. You know my views well, a divorce SHOULD be rancorous and nasty, the way God intended it.


Here's the best part...

The 50% of all marital bills and expenses (less half of the cell phone bill that she pays for) that she'd have to pay would be about $900/month... Just about what she was trying to sucker out of me for child support.


----------



## Bullwinkle

I love it, PB. 

The beauty of all of it, is you win in the end.

Whether she meets and marries a rich guy or ends up cooking crystal meth in a trailer park with a guy who only wears wife beaters, you win!


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> PB -
> 
> I'm always in favor of the Pissing Them Off position. You know my views well, a divorce SHOULD be rancorous and nasty, the way God intended it.


This is me "not hitting softly". This is me when I'm truly angry.

Coolly, calmly, dispassionately... Hitting her hard and hitting her where it hurts her the most. Waiting until the right moment, and then using her own attack against her.


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> The beauty of all of it, is you win in the end.


You'll also notice that, if it does go through, even if she moves out, she'll still have to pay it, until the divorce is final...

Then, she can take as long as she likes.

And even it doesn't happen, it still establishes that she's the one not paying bills... that she's the irresponsible one... and I'm the one who's primarily supporting the kids.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Got it, PB.

I am learning from you. That it's okay to be angry, you just gotta be smart about where you channel that anger.


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> Got it, PB.
> 
> I am learning from you. That it's okay to be angry, you just gotta be smart about where you channel that anger.


It's okay to feel angry, and even to use that anger as part of your motivation to spur yourself into productive action...

But it's a terrible mistake to let that anger dictate what those actions are.


----------



## Ceegee

Bullwinkle said:


> Got it, PB.
> 
> I am learning from you. That it's okay to be angry, you just gotta be smart about where you channel that anger.


:smthumbup:


----------



## HappyKaty

Pbartender said:


> And even it doesn't happen, it still establishes that she's the one not paying bills... that she's the irresponsible one... and I'm the one who's primarily supporting the kids.


Super smart move.


----------



## HappyKaty

Happy Father's Day, Pb. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

HappyKaty said:


> Happy Father's Day, Pb.


Thanks, Katy. 

It's my first Father's Day without AXW around... Also, the first that I haven't gotten a gift that didn't need, want or ask for.

It's been a pretty good weekend thus far. I got together with Shmoopy again Saturday night. We did a little grocery shopping together, and I used what we bought to cook dinner together. We just hung out for the night, shared a bottle of wine, talked, and watched a movie... And in the morning, I made her breakfast.

Today, the kids and I celebrated Father's Day by sleeping in, having an epic water fight in the back yard, and racing our dogs around the block... tonight, we'll top it off with an anchovy pizza and a pile of hot wings. Yum.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Damn, PB, anchovy pizza and hot wings , it doesn't get any better than that. 

Glad you had a good weekend. 

BW


----------



## Peeps678

Pbartender said:


> Thanks, Katy.
> 
> It's my first Father's Day without AXW around... Also, the first that I haven't gotten a gift that didn't need, want or ask for.
> 
> It's been a pretty good weekend thus far. I got together with Shmoopy again Saturday night. We did a little grocery shopping together, and I used what we bought to cook dinner together. We just hung out for the night, shared a bottle of wine, talked, and watched a movie... And in the morning, I made her breakfast.
> 
> Today, the kids and I celebrated Father's Day by sleeping in, having an epic water fight in the back yard, and racing our dogs around the block... tonight, we'll top it off with an anchovy pizza and a pile of hot wings. Yum.


The anchovies in the Caeser Salad weren't enough?? hehe


----------



## Bullwinkle

Shmoopy?


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> Shmoopy?


Shmoopy.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Wow, PB.

I won't even ask what she calls you, the thought of it gives me THE SHIVERS.


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> Wow, PB.


It's something I was teased her about just a little. One day, while chatting, she was being just a little... well... shmoopy. And it reminded me of the Seinfeld thing. I mentioned it, and she thought it was pretty funny.

That's all. I can go back to "NGF", if that weirds you out less. 



Bullwinkle said:


> I won't even ask what she calls you, the thought of it gives me THE SHIVERS.


She seems to favoring "handsome", lately...


----------



## HappyKaty

Pbartender said:


> That's all. I can go back to "NGF", if that weirds you out less.


That's a #3.


----------



## Pbartender

Peeps678 said:


> The anchovies in the Caeser Salad weren't enough?? hehe


No, not quite... But, it was the kids who asked for anchovies, actually, and I just couldn't resist after all the talk about them around here.

I thought the salad turned out pretty well, though... It was the first I'd made a Caesar salad from scratch.


----------



## Pbartender

HappyKaty said:


> That's a #3.


Only if A) I was expecting something in return from BW, and B) I end of feeling bad about it later.

And let's be honest... If I'm expecting anything in return out an imaginary friend on the internet, or take anything anyone says on a public message board seriously enough to hurt my feelings, then I've got worse problems than #3s.



Nah... This is a #1... Look at me... I'm Mother ****ing Theresa.


----------



## Peeps678

Pbartender said:


> I thought the salad turned out pretty well, though... It was the first I'd made a Caesar salad from scratch.


It was delicious...


----------



## Pbartender

The Petition is signed, notarized, and Team AXW has been notified... It goes in front of the judge on Friday morning.



Peeps678 said:


> It was delicious...


I'm glad you liked it...  Next time, I'll have to try making it with some grilled chicken and maybe a little spinach tossed in.


----------



## ReGroup

When can we get this woman out of the house?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bullwinkle

PB, I was just joking and I had recalled the old Seifeld episode. I think it's sweet that you two already have pet names for each other

BW


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> PB, I was just joking and I had recalled the old Seifeld episode. I think it's sweet that you two already have pet names for each other
> 
> BW


Hey... I was joking, too... mostly.

Except for the parts where Peeps says she likes my Caesar salad. That's all true... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

Well, there's something interesting...

Two years ago, before we separated, when AXW first bought our smart phones, she logged in her Google account on my phone so that I could download some apps she'd bought.

I just noticed that her account is still on my phone.

I could see her emails, if I wanted to.

Oh, how tempting it is to take a peek...

:FIREdevil:


----------



## HappyKaty

Pbartender said:


> Well, there's something interesting...
> 
> Two years ago, before we separated, when AXW first bought our smart phones, she logged in her Google account on my phone so that I could download some apps she'd bought.
> 
> I just noticed that her account is still on my phone.
> 
> I could see her emails, if I wanted to.
> 
> Oh, how tempting it is to take a peek...
> 
> :FIREdevil:


How healthy would that be? Especially since you've started to move on...


----------



## Pbartender

HappyKaty said:


> How healthy would that be? Especially since you've started to move on...


Oh, I'm not at all interested in what's going on with Lucky and AXW... I don't think there's going to be anything like that in there, anyway. She communicates with him and her toxic friends almost entirely via text.

Cool, calm, and dispassionate. I'm thinking more about seeing what she and her attorney are talking about...

_"Now the reason the enlightened prince and the wise general conquer the enemy whenever they move and their achievements surpass those of ordinary men is foreknowledge."_ *- Sun Tzu*

This is about tactics... intelligence gathering.

:bringiton:


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Well, there's something interesting...
> 
> Two years ago, before we separated, when AXW first bought our smart phones, she logged in her Google account on my phone so that I could download some apps she'd bought.
> 
> I just noticed that her account is still on my phone.
> 
> I could see her emails, if I wanted to.
> 
> Oh, how tempting it is to take a peek...
> 
> :FIREdevil:


Bad idea.


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> Bad idea.


Care to elaborate?


----------



## HappyKaty

Pbartender said:


> This is about tactics... intelligence gathering.
> 
> :bringiton:


Do you what you do, sir.

Personally, no matter how prepared I think I am, it's like a swift kick in the ovaries, everytime I find something new.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Care to elaborate?


I "had access" to my STBX's email accounts, facebook, etc. She did not and still does not know. Reading things from her about me and other things just made me mad and took a real toll on me emotionally. Quit checking after about a month later. I have not and will not do it again.

Not to mention the legalities involved. I told my attorney that I had this access and she advised me to cease and desist. There was a case, in Michigan I believe, where a husband was convicted of this. Not sure what the charges were exactly but it was enough for me to stop.


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> Not sure what the charges were exactly but it was enough for me to stop.


The charges would be invasion of privacy, and possibly some sort of slander, depending on what he did with the information.

I do understand what you're saying... I find it interesting, though, how much of that concern is set aside around here when it comes to looking for evidence of an affair.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> I do understand what you're saying... I find it interesting, though, how much of that concern is set aside around here when it comes to looking for evidence of an affair.


Much different, and more risky, once divorce proceedings begin.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Much different, and more risky, once divorce proceedings begin.


Perhaps, there's more moral justification for it... but legally speaking there's no real difference... and a lot of us were already in the middle of or beginning the divorce proceedings when the advice was given.

Anyway, some people around here wave a weakness for boobers... I will freely admit that my weakness is my curiosity.

It's a part of me that can be both my greatest strength and my greatest weakness all at the same time.

This is a real tough one for me...


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Perhaps, there's more moral justification for it... but legally speaking there's no real difference... and a lot of us were already in the middle of or beginning the divorce proceedings when the advice was given.
> 
> Anyway, some people around here wave a weakness for boobers... I will freely admit that my weakness is my curiosity.
> 
> *It's a part of me that can be both my greatest strength and my greatest weakness all at the same time.*
> 
> This is a real tough one for me...


Me too. That's why I did do it, after all. 

All I can say is I did it and I regretted it. You've come a long way, PB, you have a lot more to lose than I did at that point in time.


----------



## Pbartender

Haven't looked yet... Also haven't deleted her account information yet, either.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Haven't looked yet... Also haven't deleted her account information yet, either.


The sooner you do the sooner it will be a moot point.


----------



## Peeps678

Id be torn as well. Yeah, I see how it is wrong...and how its her email and privacy and stuff, but there would be a HUGE part of me wanting to see it....see what she's been telling the lawyer about you. 

However, if you see something in there that isn't right, you're going to be all heated up, and there's nothing you can do. Because if you go to someone about it, as in your lawyer or her, they'll know you looked, and it'll be really bad for you.


----------



## Mavash.

No good can come from snooping in your case.

Walk away.....


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> The sooner you do the sooner it will be a moot point.


It's deleted... 

I did *NOT* first take a quick look at the inbox without opening any emails.

I did *NOT* see a long list of unopened emails from her lawyer, the school district, the DMV, her medical insurance provider, bill notifications and creditors.

It did *NOT* reinforce everything I'm come to expect from her.



You all do *NOT* have permission to very lightly beat me about the head and shoulders with small bits of scrap 2x4s.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> It's deleted...
> 
> I did *NOT* first take a quick look at the inbox without opening any emails.
> 
> I did *NOT* see a long list of unopened emails from her lawyer, the school district, the DMV, her medical insurance provider, bill notifications and creditors.
> 
> It did *NOT* reinforce everything I'm come to expect from her.
> 
> 
> 
> You all do *NOT* have permission to very lightly beat me about the head and shoulders with small bits of scrap 2x4s.


I don't blame you. LOL.


----------



## ReGroup

Good job PB... Nothing good would come of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

ReGroup said:


> Good job PB...


You give me too much credit, RG...  Read that last post again, but when you get to the end, add in the smiley that I forgot the first time:


----------



## HappyKaty

Pbartender said:


> You give me too much credit, RG...  Read that last post again, but when you get to the end, add in the smiley that I forgot the first time:


You could've opened, copied, pasted and printed to your heart's desire. BUT, you didn't. 

Good job.


----------



## Peeps678

You're a strong man PB. I wouldn't have been able to resist something like that. Im proud of you. :smthumbup:


and....



Pbartender said:


> You all do *NOT* have permission to very lightly beat me about the head and shoulders with small bits of scrap 2x4s.


If anyone tries to beat ya with small bits of scrap.....I'll have to hunt them down...


----------



## Pbartender

HappyKaty said:


> You could've opened, copied, pasted and printed to your heart's desire. BUT, you didn't.
> 
> Good job.


Oh, I had plenty of more insidious things I was thinking about, other than just printing... 

Such as all the people I could have simply forwarded her emails to.

Or, for that matter, emails to those same people that I could have sent in her name, and the photos that I could have attached to those emails.

Or, changing her password and the account's password recovery contact method.

Or, simply deleting her entire Gmail/Google account.



Peeps678 said:


> You're a strong man PB. I wouldn't have been able to resist something like that. Im proud of you. :smthumbup:


Thank you; I've worked hard to become so.

Though, I must recognize that while much of the "trigger" here is my innate curiosity, there is some small part of it that stems from a lack of trust... I had loved and trusted her implicitly throughout our marriage. Before, I would never have even considered snooping on her private correspondence.

But, the revelations of the last two years and her subsequent choices and actions killed that trust. I simply cannot believe anything she says, and am suspicious over most of what she does. Deep down, I know that I still feel as if the only way to find out what's really going on with her is to spy on what she does and says when she thinks I'm not looking... To uncover the things she hides from me... To see and hear the things she doesn't want me to see and hear.

It's a feeling that naturally feeds into my exceptional curiosity... It's the last bit that needs to be quashed before I can completely and utterly let go. I'm not sure I will ever be able to completely suppress it wile we're still living in the same house, where perfect privacy is so difficult to come by.



Peeps678 said:


> If anyone tries to beat ya with small bits of scrap.....I'll have to hunt them down...


I'll add you to the ever-growing "Hitwomen" list in my phone's contacts.


----------



## Peeps678

Pbartender said:


> I'll add you to the ever-growing "Hitwomen" list in my phone's contacts.


How many Hitwomen do you have? Something I need to worry about? LOL


----------



## Pbartender

Peeps678 said:


> How many Hitwomen do you have? Something I need to worry about? LOL


It's like being a member of "Pbar's Angels".

:2gunsfiring_v1:


----------



## Pbartender

I had a long talk with S15 about the divorce last night, while we were walking the dog...

He's not sad or angry about any of it, but there's a lot of things about it that "bother" him.

He doesn't like the idea of AXW and me dating other people... Because it means we're not really a family anymore... And that bothers him.

He doesn't like the fact that AXW and me aren't talking to each other... Because he thinks we should talk our problems out (the same way he and I have been doing more and more, lately)... If we don't talk, then we can't fix our problems... And that bothers him.

All sorts of stuff like that. Nothing unexpected. Nothing unusual. But it reminded me that they haven't had as long to process the situation as AXW and I have... It's still new and different for them, and they're still internalizing the reality of it all. The fact that she is still living at home, confuses the issue even more, and makes it all the more difficult for them.

It was a very good talk, but tough.

Then... Last night, when AXW was leaving to chauffeur posOM home from work, I had my first thought about him in a very long time: _It must really suck to be so dependent on a woman who is so dependent on another man._

:rofl:

It made me smile just a little. 

And I'm pretty certain she has no idea about the Support Petition.


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> ...a long list of unopened emails from her lawyer, the school district, the DMV, her medical insurance provider, bill notifications and creditors.


It would seem that I get more information from the Mutual Friend Grape Vine Network, anyway. Here's the latest scoop from MFGV 24-hour News...

In the last few years, it has become something of a tradition for me and the kids to take a road trip up to Minnesota over the 4th of July weekend to go visit my Mother. We stay for the weekend, cook out and go watch fireworks from the bluffs overlooking the Mississippi River.

This year, I'd like to again, but I'm not sure if we'll actually be able to... My Mom's house is kind of torn apart for renovations, and I don't have a lot of spare cash for gas money.

Now, I have been informed that AXW has been telling people that I am definitely taking the trip... That D13 doesn't want to go... That she doesn't want to spend time with me... That she's afraid to tell me so... That I'm going to make them go with me on the trip whether they want to or not... That I need to get permission from the judge to take them out of state (and that I haven't -- the one little bit of truth in all this)... That she's going to talk to her lawyer about preventing me from taking them on the trip...

She's convinced that she didn't cheat on me... But that I'm telling everyone she did... That I'm not acknowledging my part in the mistakes that lead up to the separation and divorce... that I treat the kids poorly... That they don't like spending time with me because of it... That I don't really want the kids around... That if I make the kids spend time with me and they don't want they should lie to me to get out of it... That I'm only concerned with appearances... That within a year, the kids will want to live with her full time and that I'll give up my time with them.

Holy Mother Pus Bucket. It's un-****ing-believable. She really has no idea what's really going on.

She's got more projection going on than a multiplex movie theater.

Wow. Just... Wow.


----------



## ReGroup

Pbartender said:


> It would seem that I get more information from the Mutual Friend Grape Vine Network, anyway. Here's the latest scoop from MFGV 24-hour News...
> 
> In the last few years, it has become something of a tradition for me and the kids to take a road trip up to Minnesota over the 4th of July weekend to go visit my Mother. We stay for the weekend, cook out and go watch fireworks from the bluffs overlooking the Mississippi River.
> 
> This year, I'd like to again, but I'm not sure if we'll actually be able to... My Mom's house is kind of torn apart for renovations, and I don't have a lot of spare cash for gas money.
> 
> Now, I have been informed that AXW has been telling people that I am definitely taking the trip... That D13 doesn't want to go... That she doesn't want to spend time with me... That she's afraid to tell me so... That I'm going to make them go with me on the trip whether they want to or not... That I need to get permission from the judge to take them out of state (and that I haven't -- the one little bit of truth in all this)... That she's going to talk to her lawyer about preventing me from taking them on the trip...
> 
> She's convinced that she didn't cheat on me... But that I'm telling everyone she did... That I'm not acknowledging my part in the mistakes that lead up to the separation and divorce... that I treat the kids poorly... That they don't like spending time with me because of it... That I don't really want the kids around... That if I make the kids spend time with me and they don't want they should lie to me to get out of it... That I'm only concerned with appearances... That within a year, the kids will want to live with her full time and that I'll give up my time with them.
> 
> Holy Mother Pus Bucket. It's un-****ing-believable. She really has no idea what's really going on.
> 
> She's got more projection going on than a multiplex movie theater.
> 
> Wow. Just... Wow.


She refuses to be accountable for any part of the wreckage.

She lights the match and walks away from the blast.

It's not good enough that she is living in her own hell - she has to bring your children down with her.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> It would seem that I get more information from the Mutual Friend Grape Vine Network, anyway. Here's the latest scoop from MFGV 24-hour News...
> 
> In the last few years, it has become something of a tradition for me and the kids to take a road trip up to Minnesota over the 4th of July weekend to go visit my Mother. We stay for the weekend, cook out and go watch fireworks from the bluffs overlooking the Mississippi River.
> 
> This year, I'd like to again, but I'm not sure if we'll actually be able to... My Mom's house is kind of torn apart for renovations, and I don't have a lot of spare cash for gas money.
> 
> Now, I have been informed that AXW has been telling people that I am definitely taking the trip... That D13 doesn't want to go... That she doesn't want to spend time with me... That she's afraid to tell me so... That I'm going to make them go with me on the trip whether they want to or not... That I need to get permission from the judge to take them out of state (and that I haven't -- the one little bit of truth in all this)... That she's going to talk to her lawyer about preventing me from taking them on the trip...
> 
> She's convinced that she didn't cheat on me... But that I'm telling everyone she did... That I'm not acknowledging my part in the mistakes that lead up to the separation and divorce... that I treat the kids poorly... That they don't like spending time with me because of it... That I don't really want the kids around... That if I make the kids spend time with me and they don't want they should lie to me to get out of it... That I'm only concerned with appearances... That within a year, the kids will want to live with her full time and that I'll give up my time with them.
> 
> Holy Mother Pus Bucket. It's un-****ing-believable. She really has no idea what's really going on.
> 
> She's got more projection going on than a multiplex movie theater.
> 
> Wow. Just... Wow.


The hypocrisy! 

You know better and the people that matter know better.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Agreed, Ceegee.


----------



## Pluto2

:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> You know better and the people that matter know better.


Those that matter most, certainly do...

From 50,000 feet, the kids' actions tell me that they love me and that they enjoy the time they spend with me.

It is entirely possible, however, that I might have been doing something that bothered them without realizing it... kids can be GOOD actors. So, without mentioning anything about AXW or anything she might have said, I double checked that every was cool between me and the kids...

*PB:* Hey, guys... How's everything going? You guys doing alright?

*S15:* Yep.

*D13:* Just a little tired, today. I stayed up too late last night. 

*PB:* _(I couldn't find a nice, subtle way to say it, so...)_ This might sound strange, but... Have I done anything lately that bothers you or upsets you?

*S15:* 

*D13:* 

*PB:* I told you it would sound strange.

*D13:* AXW has been saying things about you again, hasn't she?

*S15:* 

*PB:* :slap:

So, yeah... They know better.


----------



## Pbartender

Just now, from team Pbar...

_I ran into Team AXW yesterday and he indicated he is trying to have AXW get back to him and without me saying it, stated, “I am trying to get her to respond now since they filed this motion.”_

:smthumbup:


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Those that matter most, certainly do...
> 
> From 50,000 feet, the kids' actions tell me that they love me and that they enjoy the time they spend with me.
> 
> It is entirely possible, however, that I might have been doing something that bothered them without realizing it... kids can be GOOD actors. So, without mentioning anything about AXW or anything she might have said, I double checked that every was cool between me and the kids...
> 
> *PB:* Hey, guys... How's everything going? You guys doing alright?
> 
> *S15:* Yep.
> 
> *D13:* Just a little tired, today. I stayed up too late last night.
> 
> *PB:* _(I couldn't find a nice, subtle way to say it, so...)_ This might sound strange, but... Have I done anything lately that bothers you or upsets you?
> 
> *S15:*
> 
> *D13:*
> 
> *PB:* I told you it would sound strange.
> 
> *D13:* AXW has been saying things about you again, hasn't she?
> 
> *S15:*
> 
> *PB:* :slap:
> 
> So, yeah... They know better.


She digs that hole deeper and deeper.


----------



## Pbartender

Right now, Team AXW and Team Pbar should just about be starting the status update with the judge...

I wish I could listen in on it. I'd be real curious to hear what Team AXW has to say about their lack of action.


----------



## Bullwinkle

PB

Good luck with all this, my friend. 

Please keep us posted.


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> Please keep us posted.


The Judge set the next court date for July 15th to rule on the petition for temporary support. It's a bit longer than I was hoping to have to wait for it... Sounds like team AXW begged for extra time to respond, because AXW still hasn't gotten back to him.

Waiting on more details...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> The Judge set the next court date for July 15th to rule on the petition for temporary support. It's a bit longer than I was hoping to have to wait for it... Sounds like team AXW begged for extra time to respond, because AXW still hasn't gotten back to him.
> 
> Waiting on more details...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No surprise here.


----------



## ReGroup

This must be driving you mad. I get irritated just reading about AXM.

Yet, nothing can be done.


----------



## Ceegee

ReGroup said:


> This must be driving you mad. I get irritated just reading about AXM.
> 
> Yet, nothing can be done.


Doing nothing does more than you think.


----------



## Awakening2012

Hi Pbar - 

Congrats on being in what sounds like (?) the home stretch with your D. Does your STBXW know where she'll be moving to -- I mean has she even begun taking any steps towards moving out? The day she moves out, I imagine you throwing a barbeque and popping some champagne  Pardon, I can't recall, do you plan to continue living in your current home, or will you have to sell it and the both of you move?

Hope you're enjoying the weekend! Barbeque season in full swing!

Cheers, - A12


----------



## Pbartender

ReGroup said:


> This must be driving you mad. I get irritated just reading about AXM.
> 
> Yet, nothing can be done.


Throwing punches against an active defense is a waste of energy. Patience... Wait... Look for the opening... Then exploit it.

Use strength against weakness... And use your opponent's own force against them.

What AXW doesn't realize yet, but I think Team AXW is beginning to, is that with this petition, Team PB and I have backed her into a corner.

There is concrete proof that she has the means to contribute to half the house bills, but isn't. And also concrete proof that she isn't living on her own and paying her own bills separately. There is no disputing that. Our bank statements are enough to show that.

Plus, since she has no place of her own, the kids are obviously living at home with me, as well.

The petition itself is proof that she hasn't been the primary caretaker of the kids. And if she fights to try to avoid paying it, it's simply more evidence against her assertion that she doesn't want to be the primary caretaker of the kids.

She's got a choice, now... Pay the temporary support... Or undermine her own position.

She has three weeks to decide. Her lawyer is going to try to get her to settle before then... which gives me bargaining power to demand changes to a few things I'd compromised on earlier.

As so now, I just wait for her to make the decision... And her delays and lack of communication are turned to my advantage.


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> Does your STBXW know where she'll be moving to -- I mean has she even begun taking any steps towards moving out?


Nope. To my knowledge she has no idea. No plans. Hasn't been seriously looking. Has no money saved up to do it.



Awakening2012 said:


> The day she moves out, I imagine you throwing a barbeque and popping some champagne


There will definitely be a D-Day Party. Any TAMers near enough to show up will have an open invitation.



Awakening2012 said:


> Pardon, I can't recall, do you plan to continue living in your current home, or will you have to sell it and the both of you move?


Unless something extraordinary happens, I'll be keeping the house.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Like you told me, PB, a war of attrition.


----------



## Peeps678

Pbartender said:


> There will definitely be a D-Day Party. Any TAMers near enough to show up will have an open invitation.


WOoot! I'll bring the Champagne!!!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Hey, PB, I just came across a post on my thread that i had missed, wherein you wrote some encouraging stuff about me not being insecure or a girly man because I tried to establish boundaries with Frostine. 

Thanks, PB, it really was helpful to me. 

BW.


----------



## Pbartender

Hrm... I've run into a snag with the retirement/debt payoff deal...

I was getting the QDRO prepared ahead of time, when I realized almost the entirety of my retirement account is invested in an annuity. That means it can't be withdrawn as a single cash payment.



To get cash out of it, it must be disbursed in 10 annual payments, the first to be paid immediately.

That still might work out, but we'll need to take another at how it affects everything else.

:banghead:


----------



## Pbartender

Might have to sell the house, instead of keeping it.


----------



## Pluto2

Does the annuity have a cash surrender value?


----------



## Pbartender

Pluto2 said:


> Does the annuity have a cash surrender value?


No.


----------



## Pbartender

The Waiting... is the hardest part.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> The Waiting... is the hardest part.


What are your thoughts about keeping the house?


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> What are your thoughts about keeping the house?


My thoughts are that I'd rather keep the house, if it's at all possible... My mother chipped in to help us with the down payment. I like the house. I like the neighborhood. The kids are already used to living there. And the kids and I have some big plans for re-landscaping the yard and renovating the house.

However, I think I'd be okay with it if I had to move... There's a decent apartment complex with three bedroom apartments right across the street from the high school. Most of the utilities are included with the rent, there. Rent would be a LOT cheaper than mortgage + utilities + property taxes + maintenance costs + repair costs + renovations. The house is older and does need a lot of work.

I'd hate to leave the house for sentimental reasons, but practically the kids and I might be better off moving into a less expensive apartment.

It all depends on how my finances look when the divorce is final.


----------



## Pbartender

Team AXW is on vacation for the next week and a half...

Which gives him and AXW all of 4 business days to review the revised MSA and JPA and come up with a response before the judge looks at the temporary support petition.

Sucks for them.


----------



## Pbartender

Two weeks until the judge decides on temporary support.

It was a rather interesting weekend...

Saturday morning, the kids and I were hanging out watching cartoons... We had already made breakfast and cleaned up the house for the weekend. AXW comes home with donuts.

She comes up to the living room, and sits on the couch. That normally wouldn't elicit any surprise, except for the fact that I was also sitting on the couch. Usually, if I'm in the room, she sits in the chair farthest from where I'm sitting and ignores me. She wasn't sitting terribly close to me, but it's the first time she's shared the couch with me since last fall.

She tells me and the kids that she brought the donuts home, there was plenty of them for everybody, and she made sure that I knew I could help myself to them.

Then, she actually asked me, very politely, about my plans with the kids for the 4th of July.  I was a little shocked, to be honest. I really wasn't expecting that.

I went ahead, and just told her the truth... That the kids and I had been planning a road trip to Minnesota to visit my Mom, but that we probably won't because I don't really have the money for it. That even if we did, D13 had tentative plans with her friends for that Friday and so she might stay home. That we might go to the zoo, instead, or to go the pool or the beach with some local friends.

She reminded me that our zoo membership doesn't expire until the end of the month, which I knew, and then told me that she still has a bunch of free passes for the tram tour and dolphin show... she'd find them and the kids and I could use them, maybe.

It was a surprisingly calm, respectful, almost pleasant conversation. She wasn't trying to seduce me, by any means, but what a change from her usual demeanor. It almost makes me wonder what caused the change.

Had a nice date with NGF Saturday night... Went to see a movie, camped out at a local bar for a couple drinks and some people watching, and then a moonlight walk along the river.

D13 accidentally put her favorite bra through the clothes dryer... and it destroyed the little hook. I fixed it back to like-new with a bit of hook, a needle-nosed pliers a needle and some thread. Best. Dad. EVAR!

S15 had been asking me to teach him how to play Dungeons & Dragons, and D13 said she was interested, too... So, Sunday afternoon, I helped them build a couple of characters, and whipped a quick adventure for them. We had a blast. They really got into it, and are eager to play more.

Not a bad weekend, I think.


----------



## BURNT KEP

Pbartender said:


> Two weeks until the judge decides on temporary support.
> 
> It was a rather interesting weekend...
> 
> Saturday morning, the kids and I were hanging out watching cartoons... We had already made breakfast and cleaned up the house for the weekend. AXW comes home with donuts.
> 
> She comes up to the living room, and sits on the couch. That normally wouldn't elicit any surprise, except for the fact that I was also sitting on the couch. Usually, if I'm in the room, she sits in the chair farthest from where I'm sitting and ignores me. She wasn't sitting terribly close to me, but it's the first time she's shared the couch with me since last fall.
> 
> She tells me and the kids that she brought the donuts home, there was plenty of them for everybody, and she made sure that I knew I could help myself to them.
> 
> Then, she actually asked me, very politely, about my plans with the kids for the 4th of July.  I was a little shocked, to be honest. I really wasn't expecting that.
> 
> I went ahead, and just told her the truth... That the kids and I had been planning a road trip to Minnesota to visit my Mom, but that we probably won't because I don't really have the money for it. That even if we did, D13 had tentative plans with her friends for that Friday and so she might stay home. That we might go to the zoo, instead, or to go the pool or the beach with some local friends.
> 
> She reminded me that our zoo membership doesn't expire until the end of the month, which I knew, and then told me that she still has a bunch of free passes for the tram tour and dolphin show... she'd find them and the kids and I could use them, maybe.
> 
> It was a surprisingly calm, respectful, almost pleasant conversation. She wasn't trying to seduce me, by any means, but what a change from her usual demeanor. It almost makes me wonder what caused the change.
> 
> Had a nice date with NGF Saturday night... Went to see a movie, camped out at a local bar for a couple drinks and some people watching, and then a moonlight walk along the river.
> 
> D13 accidentally put her favorite bra through the clothes dryer... and it destroyed the little hook. I fixed it back to like-new with a bit of hook, a needle-nosed pliers a needle and some thread. Best. Dad. EVAR!
> 
> S15 had been asking me to teach him how to play Dungeons & Dragons, and D13 said she was interested, too... So, Sunday afternoon, I helped them build a couple of characters, and whipped a quick adventure for them. We had a blast. They really got into it, and are eager to play more.
> 
> Not a bad weekend, I think.


Maybe she realizes that her free ride is coming to an end.


----------



## Mavash.

She wants something.

Or no reason to be angry now because the end is near for both of you.


----------



## ReGroup

Ice Queen.

PB, I am rooting for you more than anyone to be rid of that lady.

You have put up with more than most.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Does she have any idea the temp orders are in the offing?


----------



## Pbartender

BURNT KEP said:


> Maybe she realizes that her free ride is coming to an end.


You mean she might not be happiernow?



Mavash. said:


> She wants something.
> 
> Or no reason to be angry now because the end is near for both of you.


If I had to guess, this is what I _think_ might be going on...

Last week, she had an half hour conversation over the phone with Team AXW. He almost certainly understands the implications of the temporary support petition, and I would be surprised if he hadn't thoroughly explained the position it puts her in.

I would also be surprised if he wasn't at least a little frustrated with her over her attitude toward the divorce. He likely told her, in so many words, to get her **** together and stop making things more difficult.

He may also be beginning to realize that most of her stories about me are full of ****.... And he may have told her that she needs some sort of proof to back them up. 

I suspect she told him that same story about me wanting to take the kids to Minnesota, D13 not wanting go, and me forcing her to go anyway.

So... This is likely her (failed) attempt at trying to "play nice" so I'll stop hitting back. It was definitely also something of a (failed) fishing attempt to get confirmation to back up her sob story.


----------



## Awakening2012

ReGroup said:


> Ice Queen.
> 
> PB, I am rooting for you more than anyone to be rid of that lady.
> 
> You have put up with more than most.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Does she have any idea the temp orders are in the offing?


She knows it's coming... She may not understand what it really means, though.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> She knows it's coming... She may not understand what it really means, though.


I expect this thread will be busier soon.

The melt on this one will make the polar ice caps look small.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> I expect this thread will be busier soon.
> 
> The melt on this one will make the polar ice caps look small.


If by "soon", you mean "about two weeks from now, right after the next court hearing", then, yeah... I expect you're right.


----------



## Pbartender

I swear, sometimes it's like living with another teenager.

She brought some "groceries" home yesterday... Chips, ice cream, more chips, salsa for the chips, more chips, five pounds of blueberries, a box of PB&J "Uncrustables", and a box of frozen microwaveable chicken sandwiches.

:banghead:

From what I've been hearing, I'm really surprised Lucky's lasted this long with her... The other day, I guess he had a big panic attack while he was at work, but he didn't have his anti-anxiety medication with him. She had to drive to his (parents') house, pick up his Xanax, and drop it off to him.

And she used to complain about be being "mopey"? Wow.

:crazy:


----------



## Mavash.

I describe your wife to my husband as a teenager. My husband doesn't read tam but he follows along with me.

Lucky has lasted this long because she hasn't replaced him or found anyone better.

Your wife can't be alone.


----------



## Ceegee

Mavash. said:


> I describe your wife to my husband as a teenager. My husband doesn't read tam but he follows along with me.
> 
> Lucky has lasted this long because she hasn't replaced him or found anyone better.
> 
> Your wife can't be alone.


Spot on. Right now she's with two. PB is providing the stability and security (the feeling of home) that Lucky lacks. 

I bet she tosses Lucky to the curb not long after splitting with PB - and will find another real soon if not already looking.


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> Your wife can't be alone.


That, I think, is why she reminds me of a teenager so much... She _wants_ to be independent and self-sufficient. But she either can't, won't or doesn't know how.

Furthermore, she's got too much stubborn pride to straight up ask for help when she needs it.

She's like the young adult teenager who just old enough to have gotten her first car and her first job. The time when a teen has that first taste of truly independent freedom, but doesn't yet know what to do with it and has no real responsibilities, because her parents still take care of them for her.

What a terribly emotional dichotomy... To crave independence and to have the means for it, and yet to still be necessarily dependent on someone else.

And that's why she can't be alone... And that's also why she'll never be able to keep a relationship for long.

She resents the very thing she needs.



Ceegee said:


> Spot on. Right now she's with two. PB is providing the stability and security (the feeling of home) that Lucky lacks.


I think not leaving me and house to find her own place is more about respite from responsibility, than a sense of stability and security (though there may be some of that, too).



Ceegee said:


> I bet she tosses Lucky to the curb not long after splitting with PB - and will find another real soon if not already looking.





Mavash. said:


> Lucky has lasted this long because she hasn't replaced him or found anyone better.


He's lasted this long, because her delusional fog is still blinding her to his faults.

If she holds true to her M.O., she will hold onto him until that happens. She will start getting annoyed by his anxiety, his clingyness, his wishy-washyness, his indecisiveness, his irresponsibility, his dependence on her, and his beard, amongst other things. Then, she will start looking for someone new, who is willing to put up with her bull****. She will continue to hang onto Lucky, until she's got a fairly sure bet on another guy. Then, if he hasn't wised up on his own yet, she'll subtly sabotage the relationship until either he dumps her (it's not her fault!) or he does something stupid that she can use as an excuse to dump him (it's still not her fault!).

I only have peripheral information on their relationship, so I don't really know how far along that timeline they actually are.

However, cutting her monthly net income by more than a third by forcing her to take responsibility and help pay the bills at home will definitely put a strain on the fairy tale, and certainly hasten its end.


----------



## Mavash.

You nailed it.


----------



## catcalls

Pbartender said:


> I swear, sometimes it's like living with another teenager.
> 
> She brought some "groceries" home yesterday... Chips, ice cream, more chips, salsa for the chips, more chips, five pounds of blueberries, a box of PB&J "Uncrustables", and a box of frozen microwaveable chicken sandwiches.
> 
> :banghead:
> 
> From what I've been hearing, I'm really surprised Lucky's lasted this long with her... The other day, I guess he had a big panic attack while he was at work, but he didn't have his anti-anxiety medication with him. She had to drive to his (parents') house, pick up his Xanax, and drop it off to him.
> 
> And she used to complain about be being "mopey"? Wow.
> 
> :crazy:


is that her way to bribe your kids and be the 'fun' parent?


----------



## catcalls

Pbartender said:


> That, I think, is why she reminds me of a teenager so much... She _wants_ to be independent and self-sufficient. But she either can't, won't or doesn't know how.
> 
> Furthermore, she's got too much stubborn pride to straight up ask for help when she needs it.
> 
> She's like the young adult teenager who just old enough to have gotten her first car and her first job. The time when a teen has that first taste of truly independent freedom, but doesn't yet know what to do with it and has no real responsibilities, because her parents still take care of them for her.
> 
> What a terribly emotional dichotomy... To crave independence and to have the means for it, and yet to still be necessarily dependent on someone else.
> 
> And that's why she can't be alone... And that's also why she'll never be able to keep a relationship for long.
> 
> She resents the very thing she needs.
> 
> 
> 
> I think not leaving me and house to find her own place is more about respite from responsibility, than a sense of stability and security (though there may be some of that, too).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's lasted this long, because her delusional fog is still blinding her to his faults.
> 
> If she holds true to her M.O., she will hold onto him until that happens. She will start getting annoyed by his anxiety, his clingyness, his wishy-washyness, his indecisiveness, his irresponsibility, his dependence on her, and his beard, amongst other things. Then, she will start looking for someone new, who is willing to put up with her bull****. She will continue to hang onto Lucky, until she's got a fairly sure bet on another guy. Then, if he hasn't wised up on his own yet, she'll subtly sabotage the relationship until either he dumps her (it's not her fault!) or he does something stupid that she can use as an excuse to dump him (it's still not her fault!).
> 
> I only have peripheral information on their relationship, so I don't really know how far along that timeline they actually are.
> 
> However, cutting her monthly net income by more than a third by forcing her to take responsibility and help pay the bills at home will definitely put a strain on the fairy tale, and certainly hasten its end.


I hope you can get it back dated to recover money from the months she has been mooching off you. seriously, what is wrong with this woman? did she really think you will let her mooch off you and be such a doormat?


----------



## Conrad

catcalls said:


> I hope you can get it back dated to recover money from the months she has been mooching off you. seriously, what is wrong with this woman? did she really think you will let her mooch off you and be such a doormat?


I wonder who taught her that?


----------



## Pbartender

catcalls said:


> is that her way to bribe your kids and be the 'fun' parent?


I don't if she's consciously doing it, but that's pretty much what it amounts to. The funny thing is, while the kids certainly do enjoy the extra treats, they're certainly not fooled by the ploy.


----------



## Pbartender

catcalls said:


> I hope you can get it back dated to recover money from the months she has been mooching off you.


Wait for it...


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> I wonder who taught her that?


----------



## Pbartender

Whew! Busy holiday weekend...

Thursday, the kids and I went to see the fireworks show. Met up with some of D13's friends and a bunch of school moms and dads I hadn't seen in a long time.

Friday, I took a vacation day and we went to the zoo with a picnic lunch... Beautiful weather, and not as crowded as I expected. Used up the last of our free passes to see the dolphin show and take a ride on the tram tour.

Saturday morning, one of my sisters stopped by with her family -- they were driving through on their way back home to Minnesota. We cooked them pancakes for breakfast, and visited before they had to head back out on the road. Then, the kids and I spent the rest of the day playing more D&D.

Sunday, the kids and I met up with some old friends of mine from college and their kids... We spent the whole day hanging out at the public pool. Then an epic Nerf gun war, and a tasty cookout.

It was a very good long weekend. AXW quietly stayed behind the scenes the whole time. 

She has one week left until the judge decides on the temporary support order.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good for you, PB. I really admire how you manage to keep it all together.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Whew! Busy holiday weekend...
> 
> Thursday, the kids and I went to see the fireworks show. Met up with some of D13's friends and a bunch of school moms and dads I hadn't seen in a long time.
> 
> Friday, I took a vacation day and we went to the zoo with a picnic lunch... Beautiful weather, and not as crowded as I expected. Used up the last of our free passes to see the dolphin show and take a ride on the tram tour.
> 
> Saturday morning, one of my sisters stopped by with her family -- they were driving through on their way back home to Minnesota. We cooked them pancakes for breakfast, and visited before they had to head back out on the road. Then, the kids and I spent the rest of the day playing more D&D.
> 
> Sunday, the kids and I met up with some old friends of mine from college and their kids... We spent the whole day hanging out at the public pool. Then an epic Nerf gun war, and a tasty cookout.
> 
> It was a very good long weekend. AXW quietly stayed behind the scenes the whole time.
> 
> She has one week left until the judge decides on the temporary support order.


When you're able to write another post like this one and leave off the last two paragraphs you'll be home free. 

Amazing how far you've come while she's still living with you.


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> When you're able to write another post like this one and leave off the last two paragraphs you'll be home free.
> 
> Amazing how far you've come while she's still living with you.


What a cold-hearted mooch.


----------



## Ceegee

Conrad said:


> What a cold-hearted mooch.


I'll bring him some donuts.


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> When you're able to write another post like this one and leave off the last two paragraphs you'll be home free.


When I'm able to write another post like this one and leave off the last two paragraphs... I won't be doing it in this forum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> When I'm able to write another post like this one and leave off the last two paragraphs... I won't be doing it in this forum.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Touché


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> Good for you, PB. I really admire how you manage to keep it all together.


Thanks, BW. And please allow me to apologize for threadcrapping on you last week... In retrospect, I've been letting myself to use certain TAMers as my "fixer projects". I admit I was more upset and frustrated with myself, than anyone, and I unfairly dumped it on you. I'm sorry for that.

That said, I do feel I need to back off a bit from posting in other threads for a while... though I'm still reading and following them all.

Just goes to show... We don't always manage to keep it together as well as we or others seem to think.


----------



## Northern Monkey

Several times I have retreated to my own thread and social for posting. I think its totally understandable to have issues in other peoples threads at times.

I am really happy for you. I didnt feel capable of getting to a better mental place while under the same roof as my stbx.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> What a cold-hearted mooch.


Funny you should say that. Three times last night...

The store AXW works at started carrying some imported Japanese fruit-flavored taffy candies. She's brought three great big bags of them home in the last two weeks. I've hadn't tried any, since I'm not a big fan of taffy. Last night, D13 and I were sitting in my room, watching some anime and working on her "thousand origami cranes" project, when AXW comes in...

*AXW:* _(To me)_ Hey! Have you tried these candies yet?

*PB:* Nope.

*AXW:* They're really good. Everybody at work is raving about them. There's just one left... do you want it? _(It was green apple... perhaps my one of me least favorite candy flavors.)_

*PB:* No thanks. I'm fine.

*AXW:* Do you want it, D13?

*D13:* Sure.

It was a nice try... but it just goes to show how little she really knows me after 15 years of marriage. And it's not like I've ever kept my dislike for taffy and green apple flavored candy secret.

Later, she comes in again to tell me and D13...

*AXW:* I'm going to take the kids to see Despicable Me 2.

*PB:* That's cool.

*AXW:* D13, make sure you don't stay up too late so you can wake up in the morning. We need to clean the floor in the basement, too... It's kind of gross.

*D13:* Okay. 

Her living space in the basement has been comparable to a landfill for the last two months (I have photos to prove it). She tidied it up a little this past weekend only because my sister and her family were showing up for breakfast... Beneath the piles of refuse, dirty laundry and garbage, she finally discovered the wads and tumbleweeds of dog fur, the spilled food and beverage stains, and the lipstick ground into the carpeting.

And she's making the kids help her clean it up.

Finally, she steps in one last time to inform me that the power went out at the store she works at... She has to go in to help move all the stuff from the freezers and coolers to save the refrigerated perishables.

:bsflag:

As of 7 am, she still hadn't come back home.

So, on the surface, it appears she's trying. Not so cold-hearted maybe? But her actions really haven't changed. I simply don't trust her. And I don't trust her motives.

In the past, this is the point where my love and trust for her would tell me that she's forgiven me for whatever it was I took the blame for, and that everything would be good again if I just followed suit and was nice to her in return. It was our mutual method of rug-sweeping, and it never worked for long.

Now, I am forced to consider that in all likelihood these sudden gestures of nicety aren't genuine. That she's simply doing them, because she and her lawyer are in a bad spot and he told her to for the sake of the court date next week.

I can't help but be suspicious.

Whatever. It makes little difference to me at this point. Even if it was genuine, it's far too little and far too late. I've since had a small taste of what a healthy relationship could... should ...be like. I'm not going back. For the kids' sake and mine, I can't.


----------



## Bullwinkle

PB, you are right to be suspicious, keep your guard up, never underestimate the sheer power of evil some people are capable of.

And BTW, thanks for the kind words.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> It was a nice try... but it just goes to show how little she really knows me after 15 years of marriage. And it's not like I've ever kept my dislike for taffy and green apple flavored candy secret.


Selfish people don't pay attention - to the little details about others, nor to most of the words that come out of their mouths.

X told me "You're getting way too skinny. You need to eat a cheeseburger".

I'm lactose intolerant.


----------



## catcalls

Pbartender said:


> Funny you should say that. Three times last night...
> 
> The store AXW works at started carrying some imported Japanese fruit-flavored taffy candies. She's brought three great big bags of them home in the last two weeks. I've hadn't tried any, since I'm not a big fan of taffy. Last night, D13 and I were sitting in my room, watching some anime and working on her "thousand origami cranes" project, when AXW comes in...
> 
> *AXW:* _(To me)_ Hey! Have you tried these candies yet?
> 
> *PB:* Nope.
> 
> *AXW:* They're really good. Everybody at work is raving about them. There's just one left... do you want it? _(It was green apple... perhaps my one of me least favorite candy flavors.)_
> 
> *PB:* No thanks. I'm fine.
> 
> *AXW:* Do you want it, D13?
> 
> *D13:* Sure.
> 
> It was a nice try... but it just goes to show how little she really knows me after 15 years of marriage. And it's not like I've ever kept my dislike for taffy and green apple flavored candy secret.
> 
> Later, she comes in again to tell me and D13...
> 
> *AXW:* I'm going to take the kids to see Despicable Me 2.
> 
> *PB:* That's cool.
> 
> *AXW:* D13, make sure you don't stay up too late so you can wake up in the morning. We need to clean the floor in the basement, too... It's kind of gross.
> 
> *D13:* Okay.
> 
> Her living space in the basement has been comparable to a landfill for the last two months (I have photos to prove it). She tidied it up a little this past weekend only because my sister and her family were showing up for breakfast... Beneath the piles of refuse, dirty laundry and garbage, she finally discovered the wads and tumbleweeds of dog fur, the spilled food and beverage stains, and the lipstick ground into the carpeting.
> 
> And she's making the kids help her clean it up.
> 
> Finally, she steps in one last time to inform me that the power went out at the store she works at... She has to go in to help move all the stuff from the freezers and coolers to save the refrigerated perishables.
> 
> :bsflag:
> 
> As of 7 am, she still hadn't come back home.
> 
> So, on the surface, it appears she's trying. Not so cold-hearted maybe? But her actions really haven't changed. I simply don't trust her. And I don't trust her motives.
> 
> In the past, this is the point where my love and trust for her would tell me that she's forgiven me for whatever it was I took the blame for, and that everything would be good again if I just followed suit and was nice to her in return. It was our mutual method of rug-sweeping, and it never worked for long.
> 
> Now, I am forced to consider that in all likelihood these sudden gestures of nicety aren't genuine. That she's simply doing them, because she and her lawyer are in a bad spot and he told her to for the sake of the court date next week.
> 
> I can't help but be suspicious.
> 
> Whatever. It makes little difference to me at this point. Even if it was genuine, it's far too little and far too late. I've since had a small taste of what a healthy relationship could... should ...be like. I'm not going back. For the kids' sake and mine, I can't.


she has shown her genuine self to you many times (i imagine) over the course of the marriage, but you are able to see it clearly now because all the shields in front of your eyes have been lifted.

Indeed her lawyer must have clued her up and she is probably trying to hoover you up in an inept manner so that you can grant some concessions. how can a middle aged woman/mother live in such a squalid mess? was she always so messy?


----------



## just got it 55

Pbartender said:


> Funny you should say that. Three times last night...
> 
> The store AXW works at started carrying some imported Japanese fruit-flavored taffy candies. She's brought three great big bags of them home in the last two weeks. I've hadn't tried any, since I'm not a big fan of taffy. Last night, D13 and I were sitting in my room, watching some anime and working on her "thousand origami cranes" project, when AXW comes in...
> 
> *AXW:* _(To me)_ Hey! Have you tried these candies yet?
> 
> *PB:* Nope.
> 
> *AXW:* They're really good. Everybody at work is raving about them. There's just one left... do you want it? _(It was green apple... perhaps my one of me least favorite candy flavors.)_
> 
> *PB:* No thanks. I'm fine.
> 
> *AXW:* Do you want it, D13?
> 
> *D13:* Sure.
> 
> It was a nice try... but it just goes to show how little she really knows me after 15 years of marriage. And it's not like I've ever kept my dislike for taffy and green apple flavored candy secret.
> 
> Later, she comes in again to tell me and D13...
> 
> *AXW:* I'm going to take the kids to see Despicable Me 2.
> 
> *PB:* That's cool.
> 
> *AXW:* D13, make sure you don't stay up too late so you can wake up in the morning. We need to clean the floor in the basement, too... It's kind of gross.
> 
> *D13:* Okay.
> 
> Her living space in the basement has been comparable to a landfill for the last two months (I have photos to prove it). She tidied it up a little this past weekend only because my sister and her family were showing up for breakfast... Beneath the piles of refuse, dirty laundry and garbage, she finally discovered the wads and tumbleweeds of dog fur, the spilled food and beverage stains, and the lipstick ground into the carpeting.
> 
> And she's making the kids help her clean it up.
> 
> Finally, she steps in one last time to inform me that the power went out at the store she works at... She has to go in to help move all the stuff from the freezers and coolers to save the refrigerated perishables.
> 
> :bsflag:
> 
> As of 7 am, she still hadn't come back home.
> 
> So, on the surface, it appears she's trying. Not so cold-hearted maybe? But her actions really haven't changed. I simply don't trust her. And I don't trust her motives.
> 
> In the past, this is the point where my love and trust for her would tell me that she's forgiven me for whatever it was I took the blame for, and that everything would be good again if I just followed suit and was nice to her in return. It was our mutual method of rug-sweeping, and it never worked for long.
> 
> Now, I am forced to consider that in all likelihood these sudden gestures of nicety aren't genuine. That she's simply doing them, because she and her lawyer are in a bad spot and he told her to for the sake of the court date next week.
> 
> I can't help but be suspicious.
> 
> Whatever. It makes little difference to me at this point. Even if it was genuine, it's far too little and far too late. I've since had a small taste of what a healthy relationship could... should ...be like. I'm not going back. For the kids' sake and mine, I can't.


Peebs you have moved on my brother Good For You
I am not going to worry for you at all as I said in soca 70 thread you are a happening guy


----------



## Mavash.

People like her are only nice when it serves THEM in some way.


----------



## Conrad

Mavash. said:


> People like her are only nice when it serves THEM in some way.


Use her first support payment to bring in ServPro to dig out her swill in the basement.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Use her first support payment to bring in ServPro to dig out her swill in the basement.


No need... She bribed the kids with new toys today to clean it up for her.

And, as usual, Lucky came along to see the movie with AXW and the kids... She was just leaving to give him a ride home, when I rolled into the driveway after work.

I gave them both a big smile and a cheerful wave! AXW ignored me and then backed her car out. Lucky just gave me a dopey stare and slouched in his seat. It still looks like a teenager getting a ride from his mom, whenever I see them driving together.

:loser:

Got in touch with Team Pbar earlier... filled out a Financial Affidavit, and collected some budgetary documents to back up my case with for the petition hearing on Monday. Locked and loaded. Good to go. It'll be pretty straightforward. There won't be much for her to contest.

:bringiton:


----------



## Chopsy

Wow sounds like a match made in heaven! LOL I laughed at the image of your WAW driving her OM around like a little boy. So pathetic. He sounds like a real winner! 

But the best part is how detached you are, how you have coped with her slack azz in the house. Is the basement that bad? It's not like she is run off her feet cooking and leaning!  

Stay strong PB, love how positive and cheery you are! It's always inspiring to read your thread xo


----------



## Pbartender

Chopsy said:


> Is the basement that bad?


Do you really want to see?


----------



## BK23

Dude. I am in awe of your ability to rise above this BS and stay detached. I don't think many people could handle this with as much grace and dignity as you have.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Do you really want to see?


You know we do...


----------



## GutPunch

LMAO....Looks like an out of control teenagers room.


----------



## Northern Monkey

WTF?

I thought I was a messy teenager!


----------



## BK23

does she sleep in the cage?


----------



## Pluto2

BK23 said:


> does she sleep in the cage?


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Ceegee

Goodness. I've seen cleaner rooms on Hoarders.


----------



## Pbartender

I just noticed something that I hadn't before...

She has a lot of photos decorating the ledge in her room... Lots of photos of the kids... Photos of her latest toxic BFFs... Photos of her partying with coworker friends... Photos of her with a few of her previous EAs... She even has a couple photos of me included in with a group of other people.

But she doesn't have a single picture of Lucky in her room.

I wonder if he realizes.


----------



## Conrad

He gets the goods.

He doesn't care.


----------



## Peeps678

GutPunch said:


> LMAO....Looks like an out of control teenagers room.


That's pretty close to what I said to him when he showed me. But mine was more along the lines of it being a college kids room. LOL


----------



## tom67

All I can say is whoa


----------



## Pbartender

BK23 said:


> Dude. I am in awe of your ability to rise above this BS and stay detached. I don't think many people could handle this with as much grace and dignity as you have.


I think the last page or so is proof that, in private at least, I am not always handling all this with dignity or grace. A PM from a very good friend here in TAM reminded me of that this afternoon.

I have been denied outlets for releasing the frustration of the situation... Complaining, in any manner, at AXW herself is useless. I can't really grouse about it to friends or family anymore. Here on TAM, an anonymous internet message board, is the only place I have left to vent.

That's an important function of this forum for all of us here. However...

It's easy for us to go overboard. We demonize our STBXs and ridicule them, because that makes it easier for us to disconnect from them - to knock them off the pedistal we put them on - so we can do what needs to be done to move on with our lives. Sometimes we go too far.

While I may have valid complaints about the messes - literal and figurative - AXW makes, I should not have publicly posted those pictures... not even in an anonymous forum. That was unfair. That was a step too far.

Posting them was not cool, calm or dispassionate, by any means.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> I think the last page or so is proof that, in private at least, I am not always handling all this with dignity or grace. A PM from a very good friend here in TAM reminded me of that this afternoon.
> 
> I have been denied outlets for releasing the frustration of the situation... Complaining, in any manner, at AXW herself is useless. I can't really grouse about it to friends or family anymore. Here on TAM, an anonymous internet message board, is the only place I have left to vent.
> 
> That's an important function of this forum for all of us here. However...
> 
> It's easy for us to go overboard. We demonize our STBXs and ridicule them, because that makes it easier for us to disconnect from them - to knock them off the pedistal we put them on - so we can do what needs to be done to move on with our lives. Sometimes we go too far.
> 
> While I may have valid complaints about the messes - literal and figurative - AXW makes, I should not have publicly posted those pictures... not even in an anonymous forum. That was unfair. That was a step too far.
> 
> Posting them was not cool, calm or dispassionate, by any means.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're being too hard on yourself with this one.


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> You're being too hard on yourself with this one.


Agreed.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> He gets the goods.
> 
> He doesn't care.


If AXW is true to form... If she hasn't learned anything from all this... Then she will have someone with same sort of codependent traits that attracted her to me. That means that Lucky is more like me - or, at least, what used to be me - than I might like to admit.

And if that's so, he will care... He will sooooo care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> If AXW is true to form... If she hasn't learned anything from all this... Then she will have someone with same sort of codependent traits that attracted her to me. That means that Lucky is more like me - or, at least, what used to be me - than I might like to admit.
> 
> And if that's so, he will care... He will sooooo care.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel you're regressing tonight with these last two posts. What's up?


----------



## Conrad

Why the focus on her?


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> You're being too hard on yourself with this one.


Not if I want to continue on handling this with all that grace and dignity... I need to learn to set and enforce boundaries with myself, as much as with anyone else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

You are handling this with grace.

This is an anonymous board.

That's the beauty of it.

A place to vent real emotions
with no negative consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Not if I want to continue on handling this with all that grace and dignity... I need to learn to set and enforce boundaries with myself, as much as with anyone else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You obsess on it too much and you'll defeat the purpose.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Why the focus on her?


Is the focus really on her?

The photos were brought to my attention, and I realized I was in danger of crossing a personal boundary I had set for myself. I was acknowledging that and reminding myself to do a little better.

Then, in reponse to your post, I simply theorized that Lucky likely shares many of the same codependent traits I used to have... and if he does, that he likely would care about the lack of pictures.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

As of lunch today...

Team Pbar ran into Team AXW, who said he's got a response from AXW and will get it to us "sometime soon".

Considering their past conduct, Team Pbar and I agree on proceeding as planned... We are prepared for a full hearing before the judge on Monday.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> As of lunch today...
> 
> Team Pbar ran into Team AXW, who said he's got a response from AXW and will get it to us "sometime soon".
> 
> Considering their past conduct, Team Pbar and I agree on proceeding as planned... We are prepared for a full hearing before the judge on Monday.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd wish you luck but you don't need it. 

You are one of the unsung heroes here on TAM. You have handled all of this extremely well and have put yourself and your kids in a good position going forward. It is truly admirable.


----------



## Awakening2012

Pbartender said:


> As of lunch today...
> 
> Team Pbar ran into Team AXW, who said he's got a response from AXW and will get it to us "sometime soon".
> 
> Considering their past conduct, Team Pbar and I agree on proceeding as planned... We are prepared for a full hearing before the judge on Monday.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


God luck, Monday! I'll be thinking of you and sending best wishes!

Best Regads, A12


----------



## Conrad

GutPunch said:


> You are handling this with grace.
> 
> This is an anonymous board.
> 
> That's the beauty of it.
> 
> A place to vent real emotions
> with no negative consequences.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless your wife signs on.


----------



## GutPunch

Yes...unless your wife signs on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ms. GP

Yeah. Go ahead vent away. Idiot!! 
Ha ha. Roflmao!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Ms. GP said:


> Yeah. Go ahead vent away. Idiot!!
> Ha ha. Roflmao!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You truly are a good sport.


----------



## Ceegee

Conrad said:


> You truly are a good sport.


Mrs GP is a real firecracker.


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> Mrs GP is a real firecracker.


If she keeps it up, she might have her own FAN club.


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> I'd wish you luck but you don't need it.


I may not need it, but I'll take it, anyway. :smthumbup:

Time to relax a bit before the big day... I'm off to meet up with some of my favorite basement dwelling corn-chip scented neck-beards for breakfast and then a marathon all-day D&D game.

:toast:


----------



## Bullwinkle

Neck beards. That gave me THE SHIVERS.


----------



## Pluto2

Just wanted to say that I really respect you for taking down the pictures, even though I laughed at them along with everyone else.
Your AW has "issues" (understatement of the decade) but you realized that the way you handle this entire situation is how you retain your humanity. It isn't about her, it is about you and your dignity. My dear sweet grandmother told me once that at the end of the day, the only person you really need to live with is yourself. So, at the end of that day, you put your head on the pillow and sleep well with what you've accomplished.


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> Neck beards. That gave me THE SHIVERS.


----------



## Pbartender

Okay, guys, do you remember this?...



Pbartender said:


> I suspect she told him that same story about me wanting to take the kids to Minnesota, D13 not wanting go, and me forcing her to go anyway.


AXW wasn't around last night or this morning, as usual. So, the kids and I get up, and start doing our thing, as usual... I had plans to have them help me get the house clean, and run some errands, then find something relaxing and fun-ish for us all to do for the rest of the day.

D13 informs me that AXW had already made plans to take them to a BBQ that afternoon/evening. It was the first I'd heard of it, as usual. But... I roll with it. We still get the house clean, and I'll have the rest of the day to myself.

While we were talking about it, though, S15 says he doesn't want to go to the BBQ. He'd rather stay at home and hang out with me.

:scratchhead: :wtf:

Free BBQ food, and my 15 year old son doesn't want to go? It didn't make sense.

We talked about it a bit, and he eventually told me that it still bothers him that AXW and Lucky are dating, it bothers him having to see them together, and he hasn't said anything to her yet about how he feels.

I let him know that Lucky wasn't going to be at this BBQ (according to D13), that he didn't have to go if he really didn't want to, and that if AXW and Lucky together bothers him that much, he should talk about it with AXW, not me.

He still didn't want to go. I didn't hear the conversation, but he at least told AXW that he'd rather stay home from the BBQ. She made him go anyway.

Yep... That's right. While she didn't take them out of state, this afternoon, she did exactly everything she accused me of doing (that I never actually did) three weeks ago.

:crazy:


----------



## GutPunch

Pbar vent away man.

You are handling this about as good as you can.

Here's a pat on the back from me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Pbartender said:


> Okay, guys, do you remember this?...
> 
> 
> 
> AXW wasn't around last night or this morning, as usual. So, the kids and I get up, and start doing our thing, as usual... I had plans to have them help me get the house clean, and run some errands, then find something relaxing and fun-ish for us all to do for the rest of the day.
> 
> D13 informs me that AXW had already made plans to take them to a BBQ that afternoon/evening. It was the first I'd heard of it, as usual. But... I roll with it. We still get the house clean, and I'll have the rest of the day to myself.
> 
> While we were talking about it, though, S15 says he doesn't want to go to the BBQ. He'd rather stay at home and hang out with me.
> 
> :scratchhead: :wtf:
> 
> Free BBQ food, and my 15 year old son doesn't want to go? It didn't make sense.
> 
> We talked about it a bit, and he eventually told me that it still bothers him that AXW and Lucky are dating, it bothers him having to see them together, and he hasn't said anything to her yet about how he feels.
> 
> I let him know that Lucky wasn't going to be at this BBQ (according to D13), that he didn't have to go if he really didn't want to, and that if AXW and Lucky together bothers him that much, he should talk about it with AXW, not me.
> 
> He still didn't want to go. I didn't hear the conversation, but he at least told AXW that he'd rather stay home from the BBQ. She made him go anyway.
> 
> Yep... That's right. While she didn't take them out of state, this afternoon, she did exactly everything she accused me of doing (that I never actually did) three weeks ago.
> 
> :crazy:


Peebs I don't know HTF you do it and keep your cool I would go scorched earth on her & Lucky You are clearly a better man than me


----------



## Pbartender

Success.

They came expecting a completely different fight, and came ill-prepared for that one. They not only brought a knife to a gun fight... They brought a dull, rusty butter knife to a gun fight.

They asked to have the number we listed for her income changed in the MSA. They wanted a typo cleared up in the vacation scheduling. We expected it, and it was no big deal for us.

She still wants residential custody for the kids. We expected that too, but she has no plans to move and no place to move to yet. They dropped the issue for now.

The mechanics of the retirement pay out confuses her. No surprise. It changes nothing.

She wanted an extra two months after the divorce is final to find a place to live. During that time, she would not pay "rent" but in exchange I would have to pay child support. We weren't expecting that, but... We made it clear to Team AXW that she's had more than a year to plan ahead for this, and she hasn't.

We offered to settle the matter for her paying 50% of the mortgage and 50% of the kids' expenses (food and education, mainly).

Her only counter argument is that she'd be able to save more for moving out, if she didn't have to pay it. 

In the end, the agreement is that she'll pay 50% of the mortgage ($825/mo) and also 50% of the kids' expenses until she moves out. The first payment being due before the end of the month in two weeks.

How long she has until she must move out will be addressed later in the MSA. The tentative agreement is that she will have up to 60 days after the date of dissolution, but... she must continue to pay half the mortgage, and I won't pay child support during that time.

Maybe not a haymaker, but definitely a solid uppercut.

*KA-POW!* Party's over.


----------



## Pbartender

Funny thing... AXW didn't even really join in the process. She just sat outside the courtroom on a bench reading a book. It was mostly just me, Team Pbar and Team AXW in a nearby conference room, hashing it out.

Then, she decided to stop and buy some groceries on the way home... Actual, real, useful groceries that we can cook with, instead of massive piles of desserts and snacks and treats. It's been a couple months since she's done that.


----------



## BURNT KEP

Pbartender said:


> Funny thing... AXW didn't even really join in the process. She just sat outside the courtroom on a bench reading a book. It was mostly just me, Team Pbar and Team AXW in a nearby conference room, hashing it out.
> 
> Then, she decided to stop and buy some groceries on the way home... Actual, real, useful groceries that we can cook with, instead of massive piles of desserts and snacks and treats. It's been a couple months since she's done that.


Congrats PB it's about time. What happens if she does not pay?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

Delusion at it's best.

Lucky is going to have a lot on his plate dealing with her.

I am happy for you PG.

Almost graduation day for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

BURNT KEP said:


> Congrats PB it's about time. What happens if she does not pay?


It being a court order, she would be in (civil) contempt of court... If I made a stink about it, she'd be fined almost certainly. Jail time would be a far less likely possibility.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> Delusion at it's best.
> 
> Lucky is going to have a lot on his plate dealing with her.
> 
> I am happy for you PG.
> 
> Almost graduation day for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lucky isn't long for this world.

Trust me on this.


----------



## Bullwinkle

PB, I agree with Group and Conrad. Now is when the fun starts.


----------



## catcalls

Pbartender said:


> Funny thing... AXW didn't even really join in the process. She just sat outside the courtroom on a bench reading a book. It was mostly just me, Team Pbar and Team AXW in a nearby conference room, hashing it out.
> 
> Then, she decided to stop and buy some groceries on the way home... Actual, real, useful groceries that we can cook with, instead of massive piles of desserts and snacks and treats. It's been a couple months since she's done that.


She is probably sh*tting it but wants to show that it is not a big deal for her. congrats. you have done well to reach this point. make sure she pays you back all that is owed. any idea if you will get back dated payments?


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> PB, I agree with Group and Conrad. Now is when the fun starts.


Indeed. Watch this...



ReGroup said:


> Almost graduation day for you.


Almost.

The prove up date has been set for August 14th... At my request, it's the day before our 15th wedding anniversary. :smthumbup:

I've got just a few rock-em, sock-ems left before the final bell, though. Team Pbar sent me the latest revision of the agreements to review. My initial response to him was this... 



> I will review the changes to the MSA and JPA and give feedback, but first there are still some issues that have yet to be addressed. Please advise:
> 
> 
> It has come to my attention that AXW has been spreading lies and rumors about the nature of my relationships with S15 and D13, and the manner with which I treat them.
> It has come to my attention that AXW, and certain of her friends, have been encouraging S15 and D13 to avoid spending time with me.
> It has come to my attention that AXW is making S15 spend time with her boyfriend, Lucky, and his family, despite S15's objections.
> AXW has been negligent with informing me of her work schedule and any activities she plans with the children during time I am off of work, causing scheduling conflicts.
> To that end, I want proof that AXW has attended the [Mandatory Divorcing With Kids Program].
> AXW had refused to help pay for household bills for the previous 12 months, despite my objections and my requests that she contribute. At $825 per month, as agreed to in the latest court order, that would amount to $9,900. I don't expect her to have those funds available, but I would like to discuss possible means of compensation through the MSA.
> AXW has been removing martial property (books, DVDs, photos, furniture, etc...) from the house without discussion and without agreement.


I'm not going to spend a lot of time on these but I've got some leverage, so I might as well give it a shot. We'll see if they get any traction. At the very least, it'll let her know that I'm not putting up with her crap anymore.



Conrad said:


> Lucky isn't long for this world.
> 
> Trust me on this.


AXW doesn't seem to think so... She's scheduling a professional photo session with her, the kids and Lucky.


----------



## tom67

AXW doesn't seem to think so... She's scheduling a professional photo session with her, the kids and Lucky. Ewww! Do they all have mullets? sorry.


----------



## philglossop

Sorry PB- but this song from the 80's in the UK rings true for you

Matthew Wilder - Break my stride (lyrics) - YouTube 

It wasn't a massive hit in the UK, but did well in Germany!


----------



## Ceegee

Betting photo session has more to do with you than Lucky.


----------



## BWBill

_Originally Posted by Pbartender 
Funny thing... AXW didn't even really join in the process. She just sat outside the courtroom on a bench reading a book. It was mostly just me, Team Pbar and Team AXW in a nearby conference room, hashing it out._


This means her attorneys had some leeway to cut a deal. Next time keep pushing for more until they have to step out and talk to her. That's when you'll know you've gotten everything they have permission to give.


----------



## Awakening2012

philglossop said:


> Sorry PB- but this song from the 80's in the UK rings true for you
> 
> Matthew Wilder - Break my stride (lyrics) - YouTube
> 
> It wasn't a massive hit in the UK, but did well in Germany!


LOVE this song! Good one for PBar's life soundtrack  

Best,- A12


----------



## Pbartender

philglossop said:


> Sorry PB- but this song from the 80's in the UK rings true for you
> 
> Matthew Wilder - Break my stride (lyrics) - YouTube
> 
> It wasn't a massive hit in the UK, but did well in Germany!





Awakening2012 said:


> LOVE this song! Good one for PBar's life soundtrack
> 
> Best,- A12


Confound you, Phil! Now the song is stuck in my head!

It is a good song, though... :smthumbup:


----------



## Pbartender

BWBill said:


> Next time keep pushing for more until they have to step out and talk to her. That's when you'll know you've gotten everything they have permission to give.


That is, essentially, how it happened, Bill... The three of us working it over, until Team AXW had to step out into the hallway to consult with AXW.

So, no worries on that account.



charliechocolatefactory said:


> How do you feel about counselling and/or support groups (paying, subsidized or _pro bono_) for your kid's to provide help with coping with the fallout from everything?


AXW hates counselors with a passion.

I don't have any problem with them, and have been using one myself on and off for the past year.

D13 and S15 haven't seen one yet (S15 does have one at school that he works with for his autism, though) for the divorce stuff. I've already talked to both of them about it, and they were open to the idea but neither for nor against it.

Once things settle out and I've got the spare money for it, we'll address it again. I think it would be worth it for them to go to at least a few sessions to make sure everything's going okay with them.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> That is, essentially, how it happened, Bill... The three of us working it over, until Team AXW had to step out into the hallway to consult with AXW.
> 
> So, no worries on that account.
> 
> 
> 
> AXW hates counselors with a passion.
> 
> I don't have any problem with them, and have been using one myself on and off for the past year.
> 
> D13 and S15 haven't seen one yet (S15 does have one at school that he works with for his autism, though) for the divorce stuff. I've already talked to both of them about it, and they were open to the idea but neither for nor against it.
> 
> Once things settle out and I've got the spare money for it, we'll address it again. I think it would be worth it for them to go to at least a few sessions to make sure everything's going okay with them.


Good idea. Sometimes kids sense when parents are having problems and don't want to burden them with their own. 

You might think they're doing fine when they may actually be struggling.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

In regards to her ridiculous idea to have pictures done...I hope your kids are aware that they are old enough that they can tell her to get bent if they dont want to participate. :smthumbup:


----------



## Pbartender

3Xnocharm said:


> In regards to her ridiculous idea to have pictures done...I hope your kids are aware that they are old enough that they can tell her to get bent if they dont want to participate. :smthumbup:


So, in light of Angelpixie's latest hullabaloo, I can't help but wonder... Engagement photos? Maybe? I'd laugh.

:rofl:

Oh, and I'm taking on odds on AXW paying that first temporary support payment on time. Whaddya guys think?


----------



## tom67

Pbartender said:


> So, in light of Angelpixie's latest hullabaloo, I can't help but wonder... Engagement photos? Maybe? I'd laugh.
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> Oh, and I'm taking on odds on AXW paying that first temporary support payment on time. Whaddya guys think?


Wait I'll hold my breath and look like I'm in blue man group.


----------



## BK23

Better odds that the Cubs will finally win it this year.


----------



## Mavash.

Teenagers are bad money managers.

I'm guessing she'll be short on cash when the time comes.


----------



## Peeps678

Oh man...you didn't tell me about the photo session! *facepalm* I bet the kids will LOVE that. :scratchhead:


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> Teenagers are bad money managers.
> 
> I'm guessing she'll be short on cash when the time comes.


Based on past (and present) experience, I'd tend to agree.

So then the question becomes, since this is something she needs to do that directly affects me and the kids, do I remind her about it ahead of time?


----------



## BK23

I think any attempts to parent her will be met with teenage rebellion.

I'd just wait until she ignores the deadline, and drag her back into court. She may not listen to you, but she'll listen to a judge.


----------



## Pbartender

BK23 said:


> I think any attempts to parent her will be met with teenage rebellion.
> 
> I'd just wait until she ignores the deadline, and drag her back into court. She may not listen to you, but she'll listen to a judge.


My concern isn't parenting her, it's getting the money soon enough to pay the bills that I've been necessarily delaying so I can buy groceries... before they're so late that they start showing up on my credit report.


----------



## Mavash.

Pbartender said:


> My concern isn't parenting her, it's getting the money soon enough to pay the bills that I've been necessarily delaying so I can buy groceries... before they're so late that they start showing up on my credit report.


How have you managed up until now?

I don't think its going to matter whether you remind her or not.

Either she has the money and is going to honor the court order or she doesn't and won't.

My friend's ex didn't honor the court order to support because he was a bad money manager too. The money simply wasn't there. 

Oh and nothing happened to him for not paying either.


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> How have you managed up until now?


By slowly draining my emergency-safety-net savings until it was gone.



Mavash. said:


> I don't think its going to matter whether you remind her or not.


Does that mean I shouldn't try?


----------



## BK23

I don't think there's anything to lose in trying. I just wouldn't be too optimistic considering what you've told us about her behavior.


----------



## Mavash.

Pbartender said:


> Does that mean I shouldn't try?


Oh no I just meant trying won't guarantee you get the money.

Don't count on it is what I'm saying.


----------



## Conrad

Mavash. said:


> Oh no I just meant trying won't guarantee you get the money.
> 
> Don't count on it is what I'm saying.


Only thing that would guarantee it is direct deposit.


----------



## catcalls

Pbartender said:


> By slowly draining my emergency-safety-net savings until it was gone.
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean I shouldn't try?


She may perceive it as a weakness on your part if you ask for it. if you do it via your attorney, it comes across as though you mean business.

after all you dont want to engage her in any way. she is gone and you are no longer clearing up after her. she has to manage her own affairs which includes paying all her bills, including the money she owes you.

make sure you have done all the homework about what to do in case she is tardy and quickly implement it say the next day after the payment is due.unless she asks for a specific time delay in payment which you are happy to entertain.


----------



## Pbartender

Yep... pretty much what I was thinking already. Thanks, guys.

:smthumbup:


----------



## Pbartender

So, my Mom sent me a card for my birthday...










Included were these two old pictures...



















...She said the card reminded her of the year I dressed up as a pirate for Halloween.

:smthumbup:

And no... I have no idea why I was walking like an Egyptian.

:wtf:

:rofl:


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> So then the question becomes, since this is something she needs to do that directly affects me and the kids, do I remind her about it ahead of time?


I have to admit, I'm tempted to do it in a rather passive-aggressive, manipulative way. Tempted to send her a text like...

"I need you to bring home some garbage stickers. Tomorrow is garbage day, the garbage cans are full and I'm out of money until I get your temporary support payment this Friday."


----------



## Mavash.

Rise above pa behavior.

You're better than that.

Either say it directly or not at all.


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> Rise above pa behavior.
> 
> You're better than that.
> 
> Either say it directly or not at all.


Yeah, I know... I'm not going to... but it IS tempting.


----------



## Pbartender

Oh, I've been neglecting my duties, haven't I? Here's a quick summary of the last few days...

First, I had a bit of a... trigger ...with my FYG (thank you, Z, for NGF's new moniker). We'd been thinking about meeting up to go see a free festival concert last Friday evening, but she couldn't make it because she had her two young daughters that night. No big deal.

Then, she joked about coming anyway, bringing the kids along, acting surprised to see me, and introducing me and her "friend". And that woke up my inner Papa Bear for a moment. We'd talked a lot about introducing our kids before... I've no problem with meeting her kids and her meeting mine, if the kids are cool with it, and I've no problem easing into it by being introduced as a friend, first. I didn't think surprising them in that way is cool. It's a bit of a sore sport for for me right now. I told her so.

She said hurt her a little to hear, because we'd talked about it before, and it was important to both of us.

I knew FYG was joking, but the way AXW been dealing with the kids with regards to her boyfriends is one of the few things she does that still really bothers me... The joke triggered that a bit... And so it just hit me the wrong way. In the past, I would have stuffed that sort of feeling... and I would think I was okay, but would still be down deep in there festering. And I told her so.

She admitted she was feeling a little over-sensitive... There had been a lot of drama going on in the last few weeks with her own Ex, selling her house, moving and other stuff.

We talked about it a bit more, and it all came out just fine in the end... We both owned our part of the misunderstanding, talked it out and let it go.

Anyway... After all that, the kids and I had plans to go to the Zoo on Sunday to celebrate my birthday. I suggested that if she really wanted to introduce everybody all around, that might be a good way to do it... We go to the Zoo with friends I know and their kids all the time. I had free passes to get everyone in, and we could pack a picnic lunch. We each talked to our respective spawn, and everybody was cool with it. So we gave it a shot...

And it turned out great. FYG and I kept it cool for the day around the kids. The four kids became instant friends, joking and playing and chasing each other around. S15 got to show off his knowledge of obscure animal facts to FYG-D8. FYG-D5 latched onto D13 and trailed her around like a baby duckling. D13 talked FYG's ear off about all sorts of things important to teenage girls. And after a little bit of warm up, FYG's girls were even asking D13 and I for piggy-back ride races. Everyone had a lot of fun. It was a great day.

Later, after we got home, D13 offered to babysit FYG's girls, if the two of us ever wanted to go out for an evening...  THAT was a surprise.

Monday, my actual birthday, when I got home from work, S15 cooked chicken pasta al pesto and homemade garlic bread for my birthday dinner. D13 baked me a chocolate chip banana bread cake with cream cheese frosting. We didn't have and birthday candles handy, but D13 and S15 put a few regular candles next to the cake and made me blow them out. 

On the other hand, money's very tight. I've been juggling paying bills a bit late, so I can keep buying groceries... It's getting to the point where I can't keep doing it that, though. Had to call up my student loan people and ask for a hardship deferral. I'm going to stop by the local branch of the bank that has my car loan and do the same later this week... perhaps they'll let me pay interest only payments for a few months, until I can catch back up.

Oh well... these sure are some tasty lemons.

Nevertheless, my spirits remain high. It'll take a little time and patience, but I have a good plan to make it all work out for the better. In the face of hardship, that's comforting to me.


----------



## Awakening2012

Hi Pbar - Wow, what a great update, thanks for sharing your latest. Such fun how the kids got along  Belated happy birthday to you!

Kind Regards, - A12


----------



## BK23

Happy B-Day! Sounds like things are going pretty well, other than the money troubles.

I am all too familiar with the scourge that is student loans. Have you looked into Income Based or Income Contingent repayment plans? They might help you ease up some of the financial stress.


----------



## Pbartender

BK23 said:


> I am all too familiar with the scourge that is student loans. Have you looked into Income Based or Income Contingent repayment plans? They might help you ease up some of the financial stress.


I got a hardship deferral until the end of the year... No payments required, temporarily, but interest still accrues.

I've been in worse spots. I'll find a way out of it. And this time, I won't have AXW's spending habits working against me.


----------



## Awakening2012

Dear Pbar - 

I agree, things will start looking up financially. You are coping like a champ!

Best, A12


----------



## Bullwinkle

PB

Hang tough, amigo. Your thread always inspires me to get my ass in gear. 

BW


----------



## ReGroup

Happy Belated PB.

That was a great post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> Either say it directly or not at all.


So I went ahead and sent her a text this morning...

_"My attorney is still waiting for your response to the latest draft of the MSA & JPA. Also, your first court ordered temporary support payment is due by Monday. I will be expecting your check tomorrow, when you get paid."_

Her response was, to paraphrase, "I have no idea what you're talking about."

  :banghead: :wtf:

I am completely confounded.

I suspect she's freaking out to lawyer right about now, who will have to explain to her just exactly what happened a week and a half ago at the last court date.

:slap:

I almost feel sorry for Team AXW... almost.


----------



## tom67

Pbartender said:


> So I went ahead and sent her a text this morning...
> 
> _"My attorney is still waiting for your response to the latest draft of the MSA & JPA. Also, your first court ordered temporary support payment is due by Monday. I will be expecting your check tomorrow, when you get paid."_
> 
> Her response was, to paraphrase, "I have no idea what you're talking about."
> 
> :banghead: :wtf:
> 
> I am completely confounded.
> 
> I suspect she's freaking out to lawyer right about now, who will have to explain to her just exactly what happened a week and a half ago at the last court date.
> 
> :slap:
> 
> I almost feel sorry for Team AXW... almost.


WOW!:wtf:Call your lawyer I guess let him know.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> So I went ahead and sent her a text this morning...
> 
> _"My attorney is still waiting for your response to the latest draft of the MSA & JPA. Also, your first court ordered temporary support payment is due by Monday. I will be expecting your check tomorrow, when you get paid."_
> 
> Her response was, to paraphrase, "I have no idea what you're talking about."
> 
> :banghead: :wtf:
> 
> I am completely confounded.
> 
> I suspect she's freaking out to lawyer right about now, who will have to explain to her just exactly what happened a week and a half ago at the last court date.
> 
> :slap:
> 
> I almost feel sorry for Team AXW... almost.


Are you REALLY surprised?


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> Are you REALLY surprised?


Not really surprised. Just completely baffled as to how someone can be so utterly and willfully oblivious to such an immensely life-changing event happening in their life.

In other news...

AXW has her photo shoot scheduled for this weekend. And it looks like Lucky won't be there.


----------



## tom67




----------



## Peeps678

Pbartender said:


> AXW has her photo shoot scheduled for this weekend. And it looks like Lucky won't be there.


Awwww....how come? 

And about your post with her not knowing about the support....its amazing that someone can be so uninvolved and like you said...so completely oblivious to things going on around her. I just don't get it.


----------



## tom67

It's sad that she is going to force your hand and take her back to court. All business now.


----------



## Pbartender

tom67 said:


> It's sad that she is going to force your hand and take her back to court. All business now.


It's been business for a while. Previously, I was floating like a butterfly. Now, I'm stinging like a bee.

Meanwhile, she's up against the ropes with a bloody nose, asking, "Wait a minute, are we boxing?"


----------



## tom67

Pbartender said:


> It's been business for a while. Previously, I was floating like a butterfly. Now, I'm stinging like a bee.
> 
> Meanwhile, she's up against the ropes with a bloody nose, asking, "Wait a minute, are we boxing?"


Enforcing the court order will be the smelling salts she needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

PB, 

Is even the threat of a little jail time going to have an impact on this woman?


----------



## Bullwinkle

PB

Take it from me, even jail time won't get through to her. It'll be your fault she's in Stir.


----------



## Pbartender

Tron said:


> PB,
> 
> Is even the threat of a little jail time going to have an impact on this woman?





Bullwinkle said:


> PB
> 
> Take it from me, even jail time won't get through to her. It'll be your fault she's in Stir.


I doubt it would actually come to jail time over this... Not unless she continually and repeatedly refuses to pay. Fines are more likely.

Besides, it's no longer my goal to "get through to her". My goal is to ensure that I have the financial resources to pay off my debts and provide the kids with a safe, happy, healthy home. No more, no less.

If she was unaware that she was court-ordered to pay me "rent", then she's almost certainly also unaware of _how much_ she has been court-ordered to pay.

So, time to relentlessly keep up the pressure... A little bit later this morning, I'll text my next salvo: _"Please have a check for $825 ready when I get home from work."_


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> _"Please have a check for $825 ready when I get home from work."_


Are you going to be surprised when she says she doesn't have $825?


----------



## Bullwinkle

As you once told me, PB, from Sun Tzu, a war of attrition.


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> Are you going to be surprised when she says she doesn't have $825?


Nope. I'm expecting it. And I've already got my next three moves planned for it...

_"If I have not received payment by Monday, I will instruct my attorney to petition the judge to hold you in contempt of court for violating a court order."_


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Nope. I'm expecting it. And I've already got my next three moves planned for it...
> 
> _"If I have not received payment by Monday, I will instruct my attorney to petition the judge to hold you in contempt of court for violating a court order."_


Beautiful...:smthumbup:


----------



## Pbartender

Presuming my attorney is good with it, and I don't see why he wouldn't be, the next two steps would be:

As a part of that petition, holding her accountable for any late fees, overdraft fees and other charges resulting from the violation.

And, also as a part of that petition, holding her accountable for any court and attorney fees resulting from enforcement of the violation.


----------



## Pbartender

We are here at the Pbar & Grill, where we've secretly replaced AXW's usual fantasies with Folgers Crystals. Let's see if she can tell the difference!

Just sent the first text.


----------



## Pbartender

Aaaaand just received her reply...

_"I am not sure what you are talking about, and my lawyer assures me that such an order could not have been issued by the court without my (or his) knowledge."_


----------



## BK23

Time to call your lawyer.....

Something is really off here. Either she is BSing, or her lawyer is committing malpractice.


----------



## GutPunch

LOL She sure got a hold of her Lawyer fast......or didn't.


----------



## Pbartender

BK23 said:


> Time to call your lawyer.....
> 
> Something is really off here. Either she is BSing, or her lawyer is committing malpractice.


I've already warned TeamPB via email.


----------



## tom67

BK23 said:


> Time to call your lawyer.....
> 
> Something is really off here. Either she is BSing, or her lawyer is committing malpractice.


:iagree::iagree:Call your lawyer today something is effed up.


----------



## tom67

Leave her a copy of the order if you can where she will see it.


----------



## GutPunch

She's full of shyt.

She didn't talk to her Lawyer.

Playing dumb.


----------



## Pbartender

tom67 said:


> Leave her a copy of the order if you can where she will see it.


I've got a PDF copy... I was going to attach it to the next text.

Gotta reload the cannons first, though.

:gun:


----------



## Ceegee

GutPunch said:


> She's full of shyt.
> 
> She didn't talk to her Lawyer.
> 
> Playing dumb.


I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding and he'll have the check by the end of the day.


----------



## tom67

Well after you don't get the money on monday I guess your lawyer has to file for another hearing so that will be what about another month, sigh.


----------



## Tron

tom67 said:


> Well after you don't get the money on monday I guess your lawyer has to file for another hearing so that will be what about another month, sigh.


I would expect the court to deal with a contempt order pretty quickly. Judges don't like having their orders ignored.


----------



## Pbartender

Tron said:


> I would expect the court to deal with a contempt order pretty quickly. Judges don't like having their orders ignored.


But first, we'd have to file a petition to that effect, and then schedule a court date to deal with it... could take a couple weeks to suss it out.


----------



## Tron

Pbartender said:


> But first, we'd have to file a petition to that effect, and then schedule a court date to deal with it... could take a couple weeks to suss it out.


I was going to say, maybe 2 weeks tops. I would not expect a fine is going to be sufficient motivation for her to pay up. Besides, a fine just takes food out of your kid's mouths to feed the county coffer. Not good public policy. 

Jail is the hammer.

Her day of reckoning is coming.


----------



## Pbartender

*FIRE AWAY!*

"Check your email for a scanned copy of the signed, stamped and filed order. Your attorney was present throughout."


----------



## tom67

Pbartender said:


> *FIRE AWAY!*
> 
> "Check your email for a scanned copy of the signed, stamped and filed order. Your attorney was present throughout."


:whip::2gunsfiring_v1::2gunsfiring_v1:


----------



## Pbartender

You know what the toughest part of this is...

Not going off with a "What the **** is wrong with you?" sort of diatribe.

That. Is the toughest part right now.


----------



## Pbartender

She replies, finally...

_"I was under the impression that payments would not start to until after the 14th and was counting on having the money for the VW to cover the first one. The computer will not stay on right now so I am trying to figure this out but will not have a check for you today."_

:bsflag:


The court order is very clear that the first payment is due by July 29th.
Due to the wording of the MSA, there's no way she would have had the money from selling the VW by the 14th. And I'm not selling it ahead of time.
For a while, earlier this summer, we had problems with the family computer turning itself off. It was over-heating. Weeks ago I opened it up cleaned the dust out of the vents and heat sinks. It's worked fine ever since.
*SHE'S HAD A WHOLE GODDAMNED YEAR LIVING RENT FREE TO SAVE UP A PILE OF MONEY!* Seriously... She could have easily had 15 or 20 grand stashed in the bank by now.

Excuses, lies and blame-shifting. Nothing's changed. Business as usual. Although... I notice that it's not me she's trying to blame, anymore.

Whaddya guys think? Time for the big guns?


----------



## BK23

Time to bring down the hammer.


----------



## tom67

BK23 said:


> Time to bring down the hammer.


It's time. Next tell her to just read the black parts. Hammer time!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> "If I have not received payment by Monday, I will instruct my attorney to petition the judge to hold you in contempt of court for violating a court order."


Sent.


----------



## tom67

So much for greener pastures with Mr. Lucky. I guess reality got in the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> "I am not sure what you are talking about, and my lawyer assures me that such an order could not have been issued by the court without my (or his) knowledge."





Pbartender said:


> "I was under the impression that payments would not start to until after the 14th and was counting on having the money for the VW to cover the first one. The computer will not stay on right now so I am trying to figure this out but will not have a check for you today."


So, did you guys notice how she started out with "What court order?" but once I presented proof that she's blatantly lying, she drops it and immediately switches to excuses for why she won't have the money?

It's starting.


----------



## tom67

Screw it file tuesday morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

tom67 said:


> Screw it file tuesday morning.


If there isn't an extra $825 in my bank account then, I am.


----------



## catcalls

Pbartender said:


> So, did you guys notice how she started out with "What court order?" but once I presented proof that she's blatantly lying, she drops it and immediately switches to excuses for why she won't have the money?
> 
> It's starting.


i think you made a slight mistake by responding to her first response of what court order by sending her an email and pdf. again you are taking care of her. you should have just not bothered and sent her the second text about making sure she send a cheque by monday.

as you can see, the more you respond, the more she tries to involve you in why it is not right and what is wrong. it is not your problem. she is a grown woman, she can deal with her lawyer and the law.

also, the first time she gets an idea of impending fine and jail term she will realise that she can no longer f**k with you


----------



## BWBill

_But first, we'd have to file a petition to that effect, and then schedule a court date to deal with it... could take a couple weeks to suss it out._

If you really don't have the money then I'm sure you can file for some immediate relief, because the funds are to feed and house your kids.


----------



## Pbartender

catcalls said:


> i think you made a slight mistake by responding to her first response of what court order by sending her an email and pdf. again you are taking care of her. you should have just not bothered and sent her the second text about making sure she send a cheque by monday.


First understand, Catcalls, that "helping her" has nothing to do with any of it. My goal is to get money out of her so that I can pay the bills on time and buy groceries for the family. Everything I've been doing has been done with that in mind.

Whether I help her or not is irrelevant.

But... What you describe is exactly what I did do, CC. Here's the sequence of texts...

*PB:* My attorney is still waiting for your response to the latest draft of the MSA & JPA. Also, your first court ordered temporary support payment is due by Monday. I will be expecting your check tomorrow, when you get paid.

*AXW:* I have no idea what you're talking about.

*PB:* Please have a check for $825 ready when I get home from work.

*AXW:* I am not sure what you are talking about, and my lawyer assures me that such an order could not have been issued by the court without my (or his) knowledge.

*PB:* Check your email for a scanned copy of the signed, stamped and filed order. Your attorney was present throughout.

*AXW:* I was under the impression that payments would not start to until after the 14th and was counting on having the money for the VW to cover the first one. The computer will not stay on right now so I am trying to figure this out but will not have a check for you today.

*PB:* If I have not received payment by Monday, I will instruct my attorney to petition the judge to hold you in contempt of court for violating a court order.

I didn't send her the copy of the court order, until after she told a blatant lie. And the purpose wasn't to "help" her, but to expose the lie. By sending her the court order, I was, in effect, saying, "You are lying. I know you are lying. And this is proof you are lying. I will not tolerate it."

And she understood that perfectly, because she immediately let it go and stopped pretending as if she didn't know what I was talking about.



catcalls said:


> as you can see, the more you respond, the more she tries to involve you in why it is not right and what is wrong.


I think you may be reading too much into it... She's stopped trying to blame me. She didn't say it was _my_ fault... she blamed it on a mistaken "impression", not having money that she expected to have, and on a flaky computer.

She's simply making excuses for not paying.

And the fact that none of her excuses and blame-shifting involved me, personally, is a BIG win, I should think.



catcalls said:


> it is not your problem. she is a grown woman, she can deal with her lawyer and the law.


Of course it isn't. And of course she can. That's exactly why I didn't bother to address the excuses, and simply stated that she can pay or she can deal with charges of contempt.

It's not my fault that a judge had to order her to help pay the bills. It's not my fault that she doesn't think she has enough money to pay.

She can pay, or not. If she doesn't, she'll suffer the consequences of that decision.



catcalls said:


> also, the first time she gets an idea of impending fine and jail term she will realise that she can no longer f**k with you


Honestly? I doubt it. In her mind, any fines or jail time won't be her fault. In her mind, she still "deserves" to "win".

It's obvious by her actions that's she's no longer in control of the situation. She really doesn't understand what's going on. Mentally, she's about a month and a half behind on events. She's still under the delusion that everything will magically turn out well for her, despite her uninvolvement. And because of all that, all she can do is react... and only then with a barely contained panic.

She keeps trying the same old tricks she used to use while we were married. She hasn't realized those tricks stopped working months ago.


----------



## Pbartender

Aha... And here comes the attempt at deflection, right on time.

AXW texts: _"If you know where my missing jewelry is, I would like it returned immediately. I have not said anything previously because I am trying to avoid confrontation but this is not the first time you have taken items from my room or me vehicle."_

I am not going to reply. I've taken nothing from her room or her vehicle. There's nothing in either that I'd _want_ to take. She's almost certainly lost them somewhere in her mess, and is accusing me of stealing them.

I am not going to reply. Though, I admit sending her this would be tempting...

_"I am not sure what you are talking about, and my lawyer assures me that such jewelry could not have been stolen by me without my (or his) knowledge."_


----------



## Pbartender

Oh, and while I'm thinking about it...



Conrad said:


> I expect this thread will be busier soon.
> 
> The melt on this one will make the polar ice caps look small.





Pbartender said:


> If by "soon", you mean "about two weeks from now, right after the next court hearing", then, yeah... I expect you're right.


...we called it.

:smthumbup:


----------



## Pbartender

My mistake... I spoke too soon... She wasn't deflecting... She was just blame-shifting again.

She was looking for her engagement ring and the jewelry she wore at our wedding, and couldn't find them. She wanted to pawn them so she'd have enough money to make the payment on Monday.

So... it's my fault she can't pay because I stole her jewelry.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> My mistake... I spoke too soon... She wasn't deflecting... She was just blame-shifting again.
> 
> She was looking for her engagement ring and the jewelry she wore at our wedding, and couldn't find them. She wanted to pawn them so she'd have enough money to make the payment on Monday.
> 
> So... it's my fault she can't pay because I stole her jewelry.


"I'm not ok with these accusations"


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> "I'm not ok with these accusations"


Do you really think that'll make any difference?


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Do you really think that'll make any difference?


She's crazy enough to conclude your silence is agreement.

She's accusing you of criminal activity.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> She's crazy enough to conclude your silence is agreement.


And she's crazy enough to conclude my complaint about being accused is agreement, as well.

She's already decided that I've done it. I'm not going to change her mind, and I'm not going to be able to stop her from doing again.



Conrad said:


> She's accusing you of criminal activity.


She's done it before, remember? And she couldn't back it up, because it's all lies. She's just making herself look a fool by keeping it up. I don't need to respond.

She'll complain about it to her Toxic Friends. They'll call me nasty names. And while she's busy with that, I'll move forward.

I expect that soon, she'll go back to games on her smart phone, and I'll never hear another word about it.

But... If she pushes it, I guarantee that'll be my very next reply.


----------



## catcalls

Pbartender said:


> But... What you describe is exactly what I did do, CC. Here's the sequence of texts...
> 
> *PB:* My attorney is still waiting for your response to the latest draft of the MSA & JPA. Also, your first court ordered temporary support payment is due by Monday. I will be expecting your check tomorrow, when you get paid.
> 
> *AXW:* I have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> *PB:* Please have a check for $825 ready when I get home from work.
> 
> *AXW:* I am not sure what you are talking about, and my lawyer assures me that such an order could not have been issued by the court without my (or his) knowledge.



this is where you should have stopped emailing or talking. no email or pdf about the court order. all it does is give her another way to leech off you. she says a big lie about having no idea what you are talking about. you dont respond till monday when you ask her for the cheque again and then contact your lawyer immediately and get things in motion.


notice, i said slight mistake not a colossal one. I think you should have stopped responding to any response except the correct one (yes i will have the cheque ready by monday)

by sending the email with the pdf document you are in her midn lending credence to her lie that she does not know what you are talking about. then she can use that to spin off in different directions. 

but there is no major harm done as you will pursue legal means if necessary. just unwanted aggravation

i think she is probably the most shameless and parasitic of all the WW here. how she can leech off you and her children, yet pretend that she is in the right shows a high level of self delusion and entitlement. also she thinks she is a lot smarter than you as she has sponged off you with no real consequences. you have not been screaming murder, your kids havent been told how little she contributes. yet she stays for free, roams around with her boyfriend and badmouths you to anyone willing to listen. only strong arm tactics will work with her.


----------



## Pluto2

prepare for the contempt hearing. No judge is going to listen to her excuses. If she raises the "missing jewelry" again, either don't reply or tell her you'll see her in court.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Great post, CatCalls. You are one smart cookie. 

Yes, PB, only strong tactics herein.


----------



## Pbartender

catcalls said:


> this is where you should have stopped emailing or talking. no email or pdf about the court order. all it does is give her another way to leech off you. she says a big lie about having no idea what you are talking about. you dont respond till monday when you ask her for the cheque again and then contact your lawyer immediately and get things in motion.
> 
> 
> notice, i said slight mistake not a colossal one. I think you should have stopped responding to any response except the correct one (yes i will have the cheque ready by monday)
> 
> by sending the email with the pdf document you are in her midn lending credence to her lie that she does not know what you are talking about. then she can use that to spin off in different directions.


You see, I'm looking at it a different way... I need the money to pay bills, and I need it on time.

There was a small chance that threatening holding her in contempt of court would result in getting the temporary support payment on time. The copy of the order is what gave that threat traction against her lie and delusion that the order didn't exist.

Sending her the copy was setup for the threat, and a possible court hearing. Without it, she'd feasibly be able to maintain that she didn't know about the court order. It addition, it establishes in written record that she is willfully lying so that she can intentionally violate a court order. Think ahead a few steps for a moment... Those texts are a little bit of something that will be awfully handy when it comes to a hearing over contempt of court.

If it doesn't convince her to pay on time, then it only cost me the time it took to send and read a couple of text messages. Big deal.

And... The fact that she's trying to find her jewelry to pawn, means that it worked. She's trying to find the money NOW, because there's hard proof that it's due on Monday and if it doesn't show up by then, she's in trouble.



catcalls said:


> but there is no major harm done as you will pursue legal means if necessary. just unwanted aggravation


Nope. No aggravation at all. At least none that wouldn't have happened anyway.

It's all going according to plan.



catcalls said:


> only strong arm tactics will work with her.


Which is exactly what this was all about.


----------



## ReGroup

PB, more than anyone on this forum... I despise your situation buddy.

Like catcalls mentions she's the worst WW, in that she's so parasitic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## catcalls

ReGroup said:


> PB, more than anyone on this forum... I despise your situation buddy.
> 
> Like catcalls mentions she's the worst WW, in that she's so parasitic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think Mrs RG is going to be delighted when she hears this faint praise ;-)


----------



## catcalls

Pbartender said:


> You see, I'm looking at it a different way... I need the money to pay bills, and I need it on time.
> 
> There was a small chance that threatening holding her in contempt of court would result in getting the temporary support payment on time. The copy of the order is what gave that threat traction against her lie and delusion that the order didn't exist.
> 
> Sending her the copy was setup for the threat, and a possible court hearing. Without it, she'd feasibly be able to maintain that she didn't know about the court order. It addition, it establishes in written record that she is willfully lying so that she can intentionally violate a court order. Think ahead a few steps for a moment... Those texts are a little bit of something that will be awfully handy when it comes to a hearing over contempt of court.
> 
> If it doesn't convince her to pay on time, then it only cost me the time it took to send and read a couple of text messages. Big deal.
> 
> And... The fact that she's trying to find her jewelry to pawn, means that it worked. She's trying to find the money NOW, because there's hard proof that it's due on Monday and if it doesn't show up by then, she's in trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. No aggravation at all. At least none that wouldn't have happened anyway.
> 
> It's all going according to plan.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is exactly what this was all about.


I dont think it really matters much in the long run. she will probably run through all her excuses no matter what you do or dont do. It was just a snap thought which entered my mind and I replied here.

i guess your main focus is getting paid and her games are neither here nor there. so you are probably right to push her and additional proof that she knew about the documents is always good

anyway, here is hoping that you will start receiving some monetary support from her soon and your money worries can ease. I guess this is the big hurdle. after that you are ready to start enjoying your life.

btw, did you ever have any inkling to her true nature whilst you were married? she seems really callous and deceitful


----------



## catcalls

Bullwinkle said:


> Great post, CatCalls. You are one smart cookie.
> 
> Yes, PB, only strong tactics herein.


you and RG are dealing with craziness and poor morals. here the level of cheating and lying are of an all together different magnitude.

btw, hope things are getting better with you and end is in sight.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Thanks, CatCalls. No end in sight. 

PB, I've told you before, you are my hero for your steadfastness and perseverance.


----------



## Pbartender

catcalls said:


> btw, did you ever have any inkling to her true nature whilst you were married?


I didn't... But I probably should have. There were hints that I should have seen -- that I often _did_ see, if I'm being honest with myself -- but I loved her and trusted her... And so had I let her, talk me into believing that those hints were meaningless.



catcalls said:


> you and RG are dealing with craziness and poor morals. here the level of cheating and lying are of an all together different magnitude.


I'm not sure AXW does more of it than any of the other WSs we talk about on this forum... But I've realized that she does it with such a very different style then the others.

The others all seem to be blatantly crazy, and are very proactive with it. They go out of their way to maintain contact with their BSs, and take the fight to them. Their craziness is like the head-long charge of screaming, naked, war-painted barbarians, with hair streaming and flecks of spittle flying.

AXW is quiet, subdued, behind-the-scenes crazy... As her own text above says, she tries to "avoid confrontation". And so her craziness is more like the hit-and-run guerrilla fighters skulking around in the shadows of the jungle. It doesn't do much real damage, but it creates a constant states of low-level insecurity and anxiety.

And there's a reason she's avoiding confrontation. It's because every time she tries to engage me openly, she fails. It's because I've started standing up to her. It's because I plan ahead and I'm prepared.

It's because the only fights she can win against me are the ones she fights when I'm not there.

And so, my tactics need to be just a little different from what works for everyone else.


----------



## Pbartender

So... Guess who snuck a check onto my nightstand while I wasn't looking?

:smthumbup:

And then, just after I found it, she sends me a barrage of texts...

_"I have been informed by my attorney that if my jewelry is not returned (I will give you until Wed to do so) then I will be required to file a police report."_

_"Also, you owe me $70 for this months cell phone bill and $37 for your portion of the kids health insurance."_

_"I would like that money paid by Friday."_

_"In the future, on or before the 15th of each month."_

Yeah... Good luck with that.

She's got me right where I want her. :rofl: No response needed.

But a text-bombing... That makes me feel like a real TAMer.


----------



## tom67

Pb That is a surprise but eh...make sure it's not a rubber check.:smthumbup:Let her file a false police report.


----------



## tom67

She has brass [email protected] I'll give her that.Between Mrs. RG Frostine and angstires w she is not evil or dramatic enough tell her to step it upjust kidding


----------



## luv2luv

Pbartender said:


> So... Guess who snuck a check onto my nightstand while I wasn't looking?
> 
> :smthumbup:
> 
> And then, just after I found it, she sends me a barrage of texts...
> 
> _"I have been informed by my attorney that if my jewelry is not returned (I will give you until Wed to do so) then I will be required to file a police report."_
> 
> _"Also, you owe me $70 for this months cell phone bill and $37 for your portion of the kids health insurance."_
> 
> _"I would like that money paid by Friday."_
> 
> _"In the future, on or before the 15th of each month."_
> 
> Yeah... Good luck with that.
> 
> She's got me right where I want her. :rofl: No response needed.
> 
> But a text-bombing... That makes me feel like a real TAMer.


PBar I have been following your thread for a while now and was anxiously awaiting an update for today. I am glad your AXW finally starting paying some of what she owes you.

About the jewelry , she is a freaking douche nozzle.

Congrats on the win today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> So... Guess who snuck a check onto my nightstand while I wasn't looking?
> 
> :smthumbup:
> 
> And then, just after I found it, she sends me a barrage of texts...
> 
> _"I have been informed by my attorney that if my jewelry is not returned (I will give you until Wed to do so) then I will be required to file a police report."_
> 
> _"Also, you owe me $70 for this months cell phone bill and $37 for your portion of the kids health insurance."_
> 
> _"I would like that money paid by Friday."_
> 
> _"In the future, on or before the 15th of each month."_
> 
> Yeah... Good luck with that.
> 
> She's got me right where I want her. :rofl: No response needed.
> 
> But a text-bombing... That makes me feel like a real TAMer.


Welcome to the club.


----------



## Pbartender

After updating my budget spreadsheet, I told the kids we can go grocery shopping tomorrow...

*D13 & S15:* YAY! FOOD! :yay: :bounce: :corkysm60: :woohoo: :toast:


----------



## Pbartender

And Team Pbar says, "...if you can somehow print out the text messages, I think they could be useful..."

I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## tom67

It's finally the beginning of the end that SHE wanted. Here is your new reality AXW!:lolAY UP!


----------



## Mavash.

I laughed......I cried......I cheered.

Like someone else said I despise your situation most of all because yes she's a parasite of the highest level. I'm happy you got grocery money and I hope the karma bus runs her over and I'm around to witness it.


----------



## catcalls

Pbartender said:


> I didn't... But I probably should have. There were hints that I should have seen -- that I often _did_ see, if I'm being honest with myself -- but I loved her and trusted her... And so had I let her, talk me into believing that those hints were meaningless.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure AXW does more of it than any of the other WSs we talk about on this forum... But I've realized that she does it with such a very different style then the others.
> 
> The others all seem to be blatantly crazy, and are very proactive with it. They go out of their way to maintain contact with their BSs, and take the fight to them. Their craziness is like the head-long charge of screaming, naked, war-painted barbarians, with hair streaming and flecks of spittle flying.
> 
> AXW is quiet, subdued, behind-the-scenes crazy... As her own text above says, she tries to "avoid confrontation". And so her craziness is more like the hit-and-run guerrilla fighters skulking around in the shadows of the jungle. It doesn't do much real damage, but it creates a constant states of low-level insecurity and anxiety.
> 
> And there's a reason she's avoiding confrontation. It's because every time she tries to engage me openly, she fails. It's because I've started standing up to her. It's because I plan ahead and I'm prepared.
> 
> It's because the only fights she can win against me are the ones she fights when I'm not there.
> 
> And so, my tactics need to be just a little different from what works for everyone else.



well, i guess you saw what you wanted to see and hoped for the best. 

i really think she is the worst because she is funding a life of fun and partying and not contributing for her children's wellbeing. perhaps that is why she buys those snacks. in her mind she is feeding the kids and pbar can go to h*ll. 

is there any chance of back payment for the months she has mooched off you or is it too legally cumbersome to pursue that?


----------



## catcalls

Pbartender said:


> So... Guess who snuck a check onto my nightstand while I wasn't looking?
> 
> :smthumbup:
> 
> And then, just after I found it, she sends me a barrage of texts...
> 
> _"I have been informed by my attorney that if my jewelry is not returned (I will give you until Wed to do so) then I will be required to file a police report."_
> 
> _"Also, you owe me $70 for this months cell phone bill and $37 for your portion of the kids health insurance."_
> 
> _"I would like that money paid by Friday."_
> 
> _"In the future, on or before the 15th of each month."_
> 
> Yeah... Good luck with that.
> 
> She's got me right where I want her. :rofl: No response needed.
> 
> But a text-bombing... That makes me feel like a real TAMer.



well played sir. congrats

can you reply and ask her for rent for all the months she has not paid everytime she tells you about some bill you have to pay her


----------



## Pluto2

Whoohoo, so happy a grocery run is in the works! I was checking yesterday, hoping she would pay up. 
She has no idea she is experiencing a shift in power. You almost want to double-dog dare her to file a police report just to watch that fall flat, too. I feel bad for her legal team having to deal with her crazy.


----------



## Pbartender

catcalls said:


> is there any chance of back payment for the months she has mooched off you or is it too legally cumbersome to pursue that?





catcalls said:


> can you reply and ask her for rent for all the months she has not paid everytime she tells you about some bill you have to pay her


She doesn't have the money for it... It'd amount to nearly $10,000

So, we're trying to address it through the MSA.



Pluto2 said:


> I feel bad for her legal team having to deal with her crazy.


I get the feeling that her "legal team" is feeding her crazy. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Team AXW was the one who put the idea of making a report to the police.


----------



## BK23

Attorneys can only work with the reality their client provides for them. The process is probably something like, your AXW spews a boatload of poison and crazy to them, they crank out a solution. Since it is premised upon your AXW's crazy, it ends up being a little crazy itself.

Does her legal team have a decent reputation? What does your lawyer think of them? I'm still pretty surprised she "wasn't aware" of the court order until you brought it to her attention.


----------



## Pbartender

BK23 said:


> Attorneys can only work with the reality their client provides for them. The process is probably something like, your AXW spews a boatload of poison and crazy to them, they crank out a solution. Since it is premised upon your AXW's crazy, it ends up being a little crazy itself.


Oh, I understand that... I'm just a little surprised that it seems like Team AXW doesn't bother to verify her crazy, before acting on it.

They keep getting burned by it. They jump in with an attack based on lies and bad assumptions, and as long as I don't flinch, it all just falls flat.


----------



## tom67

Pbartender said:


> Oh, I understand that... I'm just a little surprised that it seems like Team AXW doesn't bother to verify her crazy, before acting on it.
> 
> They keep getting burned by it. They jump in with an attack based on lies and bad assumptions, and as long as I don't flinch, it all just falls flat.


This would be a serious accusation one would hope they would not jump the gun. Hey! You could offer to take a polygraph.


----------



## BK23

I hate to say this, but family law attorneys are not the most scrupulous members of the bar. Chances are, as long as she has money left on the retainer, they are happy to bill time chasing after whatever crazy task she puts in front of them. Not knowing all the facts, I get the sense they aren't doing a great job--which is good for you!


----------



## Pbartender

You know... I was wondering what she would do if I sent her a few texts like:

"Which pieces of jewelry did you lose? Not your wedding jewelry, I hope!"

"Did you search your room thoroughly? Perhaps you misplaced them."

"Let me know if you would like help looking for them."

"If you don't find them by Wednesday, definitely file that police report... If someone tries to pawn them, it'll get reported to them."



Tempting.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> You know... I was wondering what she would do if I sent her a few texts like:
> 
> "Which pieces of jewelry did you lose? Not your wedding jewelry, I hope!"
> 
> "Did you search your room thoroughly? Perhaps you misplaced them."
> 
> "Let me know if you would like help looking for them."
> 
> "If you don't find them by Wednesday, definitely file that police report... If someone tries to pawn them, it'll get reported to them."
> 
> 
> 
> Tempting.


I like the last one.


----------



## Mavash.

Married to a cop. They will file that report under "you can't be serious" right in there with the other bogus reports.

Disclaimer: cops take reports seriously but lost jewelry isn't high on their priority list. If she claims pb took it then its a civil matter not a criminal one.


----------



## Pbartender

_(pssst! ...her jewelry is right there where she's been hiding it in her bedroom in the upper right hand dresser drawer way at the back underneath the pile of old papers...)_


----------



## tom67

Pbartender said:


> _(pssst! ...her jewelry is right there where she's been hiding it in her bedroom in the upper right hand dresser drawer way at the back underneath the pile of old papers...)_


Things that make you go HHMMMM!:crazy::absolut::slap::slap:


----------



## Mavash.

Pbartender said:


> _(pssst! ...her jewelry is right there where she's been hiding it in her bedroom in the upper right hand dresser drawer way at the back underneath the pile of old papers...)_


Of course it is. Lol


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> _(pssst! ...her jewelry is right there where she's been hiding it in her bedroom in the upper right hand dresser drawer way at the back underneath the pile of old papers...)_


Are you effing serious?


----------



## Ceegee

Ceegee said:


> Are you effing serious?


Please don't say anything. I want to see how this plays out.


----------



## tom67

Take another picture of her room, another exibit for the court.


----------



## Pluto2

Pbartender said:


> _(pssst! ...her jewelry is right there where she's been hiding it in her bedroom in the upper right hand dresser drawer way at the back underneath the pile of old papers...)_


Holy heart attack, Batman! Its a miracle.


----------



## Pam

My son-in-law found a way to transfer texts from my phone to my computer, in case I needed them for a lawsuit against my step-son. I will search my computer for the software, if you decide you need it.


----------



## Pbartender

Well... It's Wednesday. I don't have her jewelry. I didn't take it. I know where it is, but haven't said anything... It would only confirm in her mind that I returned it after stealing it.

I'm curious to see if see actually follows through and files that police report. 

In other news... My PBIA operatives report that AXW may ask if I'm willing to move out, so she can keep the house. "He is making it financially impossible for me to move." "I have a potential roommate who be able to cover half of the mortgage."

Hrm... If she can guarantee that she can refinance the house and if she can guarantee that she can make the payments until it is refinanced, I might just take her up on that offer.

There's a nice little apartment complex right across the street from the local high school that has 3-bedroom town homes for rent. That'd save me a lot of money compared to keeping the house, and the kids would have about a block and a half walk to and from school. Except for a few personal items and a couple pieces of furniture, I'd even be willing to let her have most everything in the house, I think. I don't need much to keep me happy. Hrm...

Might be nice to start fresh.


----------



## Mavash.

No guarantees. She must get financing before you move out. She's beyond irresponsible so her word means nothing. Until the D is final and house is out of your name stay put,


----------



## Conrad

Mavash. said:


> No guarantees. She must get financing before you move out. She's beyond irresponsible so her word means nothing. Until the D is final and house is out of your name stay put,


Impossible to reinforce this enough.

The court order is nice.

But, keep living in the real world.


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> No guarantees. She must get financing before you move out.


That's the sort of guarantee I was talking about.

However.

Requiring financing before she moves out would almost certainly kill the deal. Plus, then she would ask the same of me if I keep the house.

It's something I'll have to talk to my attorney about.


----------



## Pluto2

Sadly, having a PSA also doesn't keep creditors from coming to me for payment


----------



## Pbartender

Pluto2 said:


> Sadly, having a PSA also doesn't keep creditors from coming to me for payment


Nope... That might get you off the deed, but the mortgage needs to be refinanced to get your name off it.


----------



## vi_bride04

Don't even get me started on owning an underwater house jointly and then giving it to the ex without it being refinanced. Such a disaster as my JOD hasn't protected me at all.

If they are irresponsible you will get bent over. Realize your credit is going to get screwed if you give her the house. If that doesn't matter to you, move out.


----------



## Pbartender

vi_bride04 said:


> If they are irresponsible you will get bent over. Realize your credit is going to get screwed if you give her the house. If that doesn't matter to you, move out.


That is exactly what I'm very carefully mulling over. The condensed version of my financial plan for the future is:


Rebuild my emergency safety net savings to a certain minimum level.
Eliminate my debt by any means possible.
Increase my emergency safety net savings to at least six months' income.
Save, invest and enjoy a modest portion of the profits.

So, my aim is to eliminate my debt, and then to eliminate my need for debt. If I can help it, I never want to be in debt again. So... It might _not_ really matter to me, if my credit gets screwed... I don't plan to ever use it again.

Still thinking it over...


----------



## vi_bride04

My ex went about a year taking on the house with no problem. I got an email end of June saying he was moving out and I could have the house to do whatever I wanted with it. Didn't make June or July's payment. All during a time in which I was moving and trying to put down security deposits for a new place. 

No attempt to refi, no attempt to work with me on a short sale, he just up and moved out with extremely little communication. He deliberately lied to try to "run away" without any consequences. He took light fixtures and the over the range microwave. He left ~30yrds worth of junk and trash that needed to be hauled away. Destroyed the gate into the fenced yard.....erg

Guess he will be in for a shock when he gets a nice letter from my lawyer and a motion for contempt of court along with a nice big and hefty bill of everything I have had to spend due to his negligence. He will be even more shocked wondering how I got his new address!!! LMAO!!!

Sometimes I am just glad they are so fricken DUMB


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:


> Still thinking it over...


I'm going to do it.

But I'm going to wait until she suggests it.


----------



## Pbartender

She did it again.

Yesterday, the kids and I made pancakes and sausage links for breakfast... We had half a dozen or so of the sausages leftover. We'd planned on having them for breakfast this morning.

Yesterday, AXW came home... And quite literally sneaked into the kitchen. I walked in as she was leaving, and she was trying to hide her bowl of food as she sneaked back out.

Then, after she was done eating, she just left again.

All those breakfast sausages were gone. And about 6 or 7 pieces of sliced cheese I'd bought to go with the deli meat I bought for sandwiches for the kids to have for lunches.

She shows up. she eats a half dozen breakfast sausages, a half pound of cheese and a cup of coffee for lunch. Then she disappears.

Un. ****ing. Believable. issed:

Also... D13 had a hard time this weekend. She hasn't been sleeping well. She's has had a tough get time getting to sleep and staying asleep at night. Ends up staying up late, and then ends up sleeping half the day away.

It's really beginning to frustrate her.

On top of that... D13 has a best friend, who's been away all summer, and may move away next summer. Her friend bought Taylor Swift tickets for both of them, so they could go to a concert together next weekend. When I asked her what the plan was for the concert, D13 started complaining... She doesn't know what the plans are yet. AXW was supposed to talk to D13's friend's grandma and figure it out. But when AXW came home from work the other day and D13 wanted to ask her about it, AXW fell asleep before she could... And then later, left the house to go hang out with Lucky. D13 never got a chance to ask about it.

She was pretty mad and upset about it... and with her insomnia and other stuff, was on the edge of tears.

And then later, the kids and I were talking about me possibly moving to an apartment... And D13 started grumbling and complaining about the custody schedule. She doesn't like the idea of bouncing back and forth so often.

*sigh* 

On the other hand, the kids and I had a pretty good time together over the weekend... Cleaned house, ordered pizza, watched a movie, ran errands together, played some board games and video games, stopped by the library, took the dog for a walk together and explored some new hiking trails down by the river, cooked some fantastic food, and baked some tasty cookies.

So, that was good.


----------



## Mavash.

Time to get a spare tiny fridge. Put it in a closet that you can lock. Don't buy any more food than you and the kids need. 

CUT HER OFF!!!!

Don't keep any food in the kitchen other than lame things like spices or dried pasta.

Store nonperishables in a tub that you can carry with you when you leave.

Stop feeding the very large parasite you have living in your basement.

Explain to the kids in language they understand what is going on. Sadly my friend had to do this to her now ex husband. He was such an ass he wouldn't buy food or give her money but would eat whatever she bought for the kids.


----------



## Ceegee

Ceegee said:


> In the meantime, padlock the pantry, refrigerator and cupboards.


Two months ago PB...

AXW is more of a lost teenager than a parent. She gots to go.


----------



## Pluto2

Maybe you should finalize the arrangements for D13 yourself, just cut the AXW off. She won't behave like a responsible parent and you can take care of this situation. If AXW says something, tell her it was no big deal, you just took care of it since she's too busy.


----------



## Conrad

Pbar,

Did you get the check?


----------



## Mavash.

Conrad said:


> Pbar,
> 
> Did you get the check?


He did but it's not near enough to cover a years worth of mooching.

I spend that much for 3 weeks worth of food alone for a family of 5.

That doesn't even cover the mortgage, utilities, insurance, etc.


----------



## Conrad

Mavash. said:


> He did but it's not near enough to cover a years worth of mooching.
> 
> I spend that much for 3 weeks worth of food alone for a family of 5.
> 
> That doesn't even cover the mortgage, utilities, insurance, etc.


Alas, I hadn't kept up.

Never thought it would be enough to cover all that.

But, I guarantee you that's why she feels emboldened to steal.


----------



## Mavash.

Exactly and out of the next check I'd buy locks and a small fridge.

The investment will pay for itself in no time.

The fridge is the priciest thing but a small one would be around $70. I'd use it for precious leftovers and expensive meats/cheeses.

She can keep the pickles, condiments and boring vegetables. LOL


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> Exactly and out of the next check I'd buy locks and a small fridge.


The next check is getting stashed for the security deposit on an apartment.


----------



## Mavash.

Pbartender said:


> The next check is getting stashed for the security deposit on an apartment.


Who is moving? You?

You can't until you get your name off that house and that isn't going to happen quickly.


----------



## Conrad

Mavash. said:


> Who is moving? You?
> 
> You can't until you get your name off that house and that isn't going to happen quickly.


Huge bad idea to move out.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Huge bad idea to move out.


I'm not so certain it is. Why do you think so?


----------



## Mavash.

Did you not read Vi's story?


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> Did you not read Vi's story?


I haven't read it in detail, but I have heard about it. I know what you're alluding to.

But this quote from Vi's thread...



vi_bride04 said:


> I mean can't work with someone who falls off the face of the earth, right? And I can say that I am 110% ok with that. It really is a liberating feeling knowing I don't have to deal with that jerk anymore. *And not having to deal with him is worth a foreclosure in my opinion!!!!* Just seeing the PA behavior yesterday and the lengths he went to to try to get one up on me really put things into perspective on how much I can't rely on him to do the right thing when it comes to that house. So why even bother. Its not worth my energy.
> 
> My renter is still lined up but I really don't care if they fall through at this point. I look back at my freak out a few weeks ago and am asking myself "wtf". I let my ex get the best of me by letting myself get so worked up over a situation that really doesn't fricken matter in the long run. I don't plan on buying a house, I have established credit and he was never going to work with me to begin with.
> 
> I am just so relieved he is out of my life. I can't even begin to describe the "at peace" feelings I have. They are more intense then when I moved or when the divorce was finalized. I think I finally have him out of my life for good.
> 
> FREEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM!!!!! :toast:


...sums up my feelings about it precisely.


----------



## vi_bride04

Don't leave......

yes I loved having my own place and moving out and starting new....

But a year later having to take on the house again, I really wish I would have just kicked him out and kept it. I mean, I was just delaying the inevitable by leaving since he decided to abandon it anyways. 

Unless you can get something so rock solid in the form of the JOD that will totally protect your @ss from her irresponsibility when it comes to the bank, go for it.


----------



## Pbartender

vi_bride04 said:


> Unless you can get something so rock solid in the form of the JOD that will totally protect your @ss from her irresponsibility when it comes to the bank, go for it.


Currently, the latest revision of the MSA gives the house to me. It requires me to take full responsibility (payments, maintenance, etc...) for the house. It requires me to try to refinance the house immediately following the divorce, and at least once every six months thereafter. If I cannot refinance within 18 months, the house must be sold, with any profit or loss begin divided between us (currently, 75% to me and 25% to her).

I would expect something similar, if she kept the house.

Regardless, I can survive a foreclosure, should it happen. I'll go over it more, later... But right now, the benefits of moving out seem to outweigh the risks.


----------



## vi_bride04

Ugh...I feel defeated by him right now and not in the best mood to be giving advice....

I still do feel the foreclosure would be worth not dealing with him again but I know I wouldn't get that lucky to not have to deal with him ever again......

I just want to punch him in the face.That would make me feel better.


----------



## Mavash.

It's a strategy. My friend with the husband that wouldn't divorce was going to just leave until he caught wind of it and got a court order stopping her. She didn't care about a foreclosure either because she knew she was going to have to claim bankruptcy anyway.

Just don't be like my friend. She's a bit delusional about how a bankruptcy works. She thinks she's got it all figured out but my gut says it won't go down the way she thinks it will. See she charged up a bunch of stuff a year before she ran out of credit. She did what I call a strategic bankruptcy.


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> It's a strategy. My friend with the husband that wouldn't divorce was going to just leave until he caught wind of it and got a court order stopping her. She didn't care about a foreclosure either because she knew she was going to have to claim bankruptcy anyway.
> 
> Just don't be like my friend. She's a bit delusional about how a bankruptcy works. She thinks she's got it all figured out but my gut says it won't go down the way she thinks it will. See she charged up a bunch of stuff a year before she ran out of credit. She did what I call a strategic bankruptcy.


It is my intent to have all my debt legitimately paid off as soon as possible, and then to never use any sort of credit ever again. I want to be truly financially independent. Strategic bankruptcy is not in the plan.

With that in mind, letting go of the house would be far more beneficial than keeping it. And the possibility of AXW foreclosing on the house is an acceptable risk.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

So why dont you kick her out...?


----------



## Pbartender

3Xnocharm said:


> So why dont you kick her out...?


How, exactly?

Contrary to popular belief, you can't just kick out a spouse who doesn't want to leave. Especially if their name is on the deed to the house.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Keep the house like you had originally planned but offer to sell it to her at market. She'll need to come up with her own financing for it and she might do it before you have to refinance. It seems a fair compromise.

:lol: :rofl: Even while I was typing it I knew it was ridiculous, she won't take any action like that.


----------



## Ceegee

Nucking Futs said:


> Keep the house like you had originally planned but offer to sell it to her at market. She'll need to come up with her own financing for it and she might do it before you have to refinance. It seems a fair compromise.
> 
> :lol: :rofl: Even while I was typing it I knew it was ridiculous, she won't take any action like that.


Now we know why you chose the name you did.


----------



## Mavash.

Pbartender said:


> Strategic bankruptcy is not in the plan.


I told you that story not because I thought that was what you were doing but to remind you to do your research before you let a house go to foreclosure.

I'm no expert so I can't advice on that I just know that's where your likely headed. Your wife is an overgrown teenager and teenagers don't make good homeowners.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Ceegee said:


> Now we know why you chose the name you did.


It's not a name, it's a description.


----------



## catcalls

Pbartender said:


> Currently, the latest revision of the MSA gives the house to me. It requires me to take full responsibility (payments, maintenance, etc...) for the house. It requires me to try to refinance the house immediately following the divorce, and at least once every six months thereafter. If I cannot refinance within 18 months, the house must be sold, with any profit or loss begin divided between us (currently, 75% to me and 25% to her).
> 
> I would expect something similar, if she kept the house.
> 
> Regardless, I can survive a foreclosure, should it happen. I'll go over it more, later... But right now, the benefits of moving out seem to outweigh the risks.


why dont you put the house on the market now and try to sell it (even at a lower price). that way you can finish off this saga quicker. even if it does not sell, it brings forth a discussion about what to do with the house. you intimate her that you want to get rid of the house. she can then decide to offer you the option that she will refinance it. you keep the house on the market and only take it off when she actually does all the legal work necessary to refinance the house. this keeps some pressure on her if she wants the house. if she does not, then it is probably best for you to sell the house anyway and make a clean start


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> I told you that story not because I thought that was what you were doing but to remind you to do your research before you let a house go to foreclosure.


Be assured that this is not something I would do lightly. I would never jump into something of this magnitude without doing my homework very carefully and without understanding all the consequences and all the options as thoroughly as I can.



Mavash. said:


> I'm no expert so I can't advice on that I just know that's where your likely headed. Your wife is an overgrown teenager and teenagers don't make good homeowners.


Yep. I agree completely. However... This is what she's asking for. This what she wants. I'm of a mind to let her have it.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Yep. I agree completely. However... This is what she's asking for. This what she wants. I'm of a mind to let her have it.


The woman can't even feed herself. How is she going to be able to own and maintain a home?


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> The woman can't even feed herself. How is she going to be able to own and maintain a home?


That is no longer my responsibility, nor my concern.

I am now willing to let her learn it for herself.


----------



## BK23

I would just make sure she refinances before you sign it over. A foreclosure on your credit history is not fun. I know you say you never want to use credit again, but what if you end up wanting to be a home owner again? What about when your kids go off to college and you can't co-sign their student loans?


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> That is no longer my responsibility, nor my concern.
> 
> I am now willing to let her learn it for herself.


I know. Just commenting on her ineptitude. 

Just hate that you have to pay a price for her life's lessons.


----------



## Pbartender

BK23 said:


> I know you say you never want to use credit again, but what if you end up wanting to be a home owner again? What about when your kids go off to college and you can't co-sign their student loans?


Look at it this way... I currently have three credit cards, a car loan, a student loan, and a personal loan. My minimum monthly payments for them are nearly $1000. Aside from that, the only other debt is the mortgage, which is $1650 per month.

Getting rid of all that is $2650 a month. Lets say I move into a three-bedroom apartment with a rent payment of $1150/mo, which is not unusual for this area, and other changes to utilities and groceries and such break even.

That gives me $1500/mo... $18,000 a year. $90,000 by the time the kids graduate high school.

Even if I only save up half that, that's still plenty enough to find a way to get them through college.


----------



## Mavash.

If I were you I'd be googling "strategic foreclosure" because that's what you will be doing if you move.

And I'm so NOT worried about college. I'd be more worried about the hit to my credit score. I know it affects the price you pay for insurance, some jobs check your credit now, some places won't even rent to you, etc.

For example I've read it's best to find a place to live BEFORE the hit to your credit. Those are the type tips I'd want to read about


----------



## Pbartender

Okay. Let's jump up to the spy satellite in orbit, and take an objective look at the current situation...

*Problem:* AXW is living at home and won't move out.

Living in close proximity with AXW causes constant tension and stress for everyone in the home.
The low-level chronic stress is causing health problems for everyone in the home.
AXW is not fairly contributing to the bills, the chores or parenting. (The court order is a temporary financial solution.)
AXW does not communicate her schedule or plans, and there is no custody schedule in place, causing conflicts.
AXW refuses to make any decisions or take any proactive action to complete the divorce or move out, unless forced to.

*My Goals:* Establish myself as an independent, single father.

I want my own private, separate living space, apart from AXW.
I want to become debt free as soon as possible, and stay that way.

*Proposed Action:* Leave the house and all its responsibilities to AXW. Move out into an apartment at the earliest possible convenience.

Pros...

Contact with AXW is minimized, thereby minimizing stress.
Any remaining temptation to fix AXW's problems or clean up her messes would be removed.
AXW would no longer be draining my resources... especially with regards to time, money and emotional strength.
With a schedule necessarily in place, AXW would no longer be interfering with my parenting time.
With a schedule necessarily in place, I would also have guilt free personal time.
I would save money: Monthly rent payments would be smaller. Some utilities would be included. Any remaining utilities would be less expensive. I would not have to pay for maintenance, repairs or renovations (the house is 40 years old, and needs quite a bit of work).
AXW (or Lucky or her Toxic Avengers) would be forced to take full responsibility for her own life.
The apartment I will rent is within walking distance of the kids' school.
The apartment complex includes a pool, park, gym, clubhouse, and other amenities conducive to socialization.

Cons...

I run the risk of AXW being unable or unwilling to refinance.
I run the risk of AXW being unable or unwilling to make the payments on time.
I run the risk of AXW going into foreclosure, or selling the house short.
The apartment would have less total living space than the house.

Double-check me, guys... Have I missed anything?


----------



## Mavash.

PB always assume the worst when strategizing.

Therefore assume the house WILL go into foreclosure.

Now list the pro's and cons to that scenario.


----------



## Ceegee

Devil's advocate...what about stress from dealing with collectors. 

Assume she won't be able to pay anything on time if at all. 

Utilities, phone, cable. 

It will take a while to go into foreclosure, right? 

All of this will take a toll on you. Those problems you listed will still exist. They'll just come from a different source.


----------



## BK23

Even renting apartments becomes problematic when your credit is terrible. It may be a different case where you are (nowhere is as bad as NYC), but folks here with bad credit either live in slums or are forced to pay exorbitant security deposits or months of rent in advance. 

You've dealt with this for so long, I can't imagine how trying it is. Why not put up with it for a little while longer to secure your and your childrens' financial well-being? If you want her to take the house, get her started on refinancing, and don't go until your name is off that mortgage.


----------



## vi_bride04

If you do leave, make sure all bills/utilities are out of your name. 

I got stuck with the $300 water bill that he didn't feel like paying.


----------



## catcalls

Pbartender said:


> Okay. Let's jump up to the spy satellite in orbit, and take an objective look at the current situation...
> 
> *Problem:* AXW is living at home and won't move out.
> 
> Living in close proximity with AXW causes constant tension and stress for everyone in the home.
> The low-level chronic stress is causing health problems for everyone in the home.
> AXW is not fairly contributing to the bills, the chores or parenting. (The court order is a temporary financial solution.)
> AXW does not communicate her schedule or plans, and there is no custody schedule in place, causing conflicts.
> AXW refuses to make any decisions or take any proactive action to complete the divorce or move out, unless forced to.
> 
> *My Goals:* Establish myself as an independent, single father.
> 
> I want my own private, separate living space, apart from AXW.
> I want to become debt free as soon as possible, and stay that way.
> 
> *Proposed Action:* Leave the house and all its responsibilities to AXW. Move out into an apartment at the earliest possible convenience.
> 
> Pros...
> 
> Contact with AXW is minimized, thereby minimizing stress.
> Any remaining temptation to fix AXW's problems or clean up her messes would be removed.
> AXW would no longer be draining my resources... especially with regards to time, money and emotional strength.
> With a schedule necessarily in place, AXW would no longer be interfering with my parenting time.
> With a schedule necessarily in place, I would also have guilt free personal time.
> I would save money: Monthly rent payments would be smaller. Some utilities would be included. Any remaining utilities would be less expensive. I would not have to pay for maintenance, repairs or renovations (the house is 40 years old, and needs quite a bit of work).
> AXW (or Lucky or her Toxic Avengers) would be forced to take full responsibility for her own life.
> The apartment I will rent is within walking distance of the kids' school.
> The apartment complex includes a pool, park, gym, clubhouse, and other amenities conducive to socialization.
> 
> Cons...
> 
> I run the risk of AXW being unable or unwilling to refinance.
> I run the risk of AXW being unable or unwilling to make the payments on time.
> I run the risk of AXW going into foreclosure, or selling the house short.
> The apartment would have less total living space than the house.
> 
> Double-check me, guys... Have I missed anything?


as I mentioned earlier, is there no way to sell the house. or dont they do this thing in USA where they return the keys to the bank if the house is under. 

she is a leech, she will bleed you dry. all along you are reacting to her poor behaviour and setting boundaries. what if you start making her react, i.e. you act proactively, either selling or moving out. what is the absolute maximum financial hit you will be faced with. i.e. can you quantify your losses

i think the relief you will feel living in your own apartment will be enormous. will really improve your quality of life and give her a dose of reality. 


ps. i understand why you are struggling for money, but why is she struggling. she has hardly any living expenses, rent and she steals food.


----------



## Tron

Pbartender said:


> Cons...
> 1. I run the risk of AXW being unable or unwilling to refinance.
> 2. I run the risk of AXW being unable or unwilling to make the payments on time.
> 3. I run the risk of AXW going into foreclosure, or selling the house short.


I think those risks you just listed are virtual certainties. How does that change the thought process?

If you want out of the house and off the note, see if you can get your attorney to force a sale and put the house on the market. If your W wants to buy it on her own, then great, you just got yourself off the hook for all those risks you just mentioned.


----------



## Pluto2

PB, you say you don't really care about your credit score (which will go down about 150-200 points). Be sure to consider:
1. Many landlords who will rent to someone with bad credit may require double a security deposit for bad credit.
2. Credit cards that you are still paying on can go up in interest once the foreclosure is on record, causing you to pay more than you anticipate.
3. You will get hit with a hefty tax bill for what ever outstanding debt is forgiven by the lender.
4. You run the risk of jeopardizing any future employment and get to explain to employers what happened.
5. If you want a future home, it will be next to impossible for seven years, and that's provided you work to improve your credit score-which you say you aren't going to bother with.

Having said all that, I'd let her sink with the house, too.


----------



## Pbartender

Phew! Lot to catch up on. Let's see if I can in the space of my lunch break. 

In no particular order...



Ceegee said:


> Devil's advocate...what about stress from dealing with collectors.


I've been dealing with stress from her bill collectors (she has at least two or three credit cards that are charge offs) for the last ten years.

I pay all my bills on time, and I had all of her bad accounts removed from my credit report.

Moving to a new home with a new address and new phone number actually reduce or even eliminate that problem.



Ceegee said:


> Assume she won't be able to pay anything on time if at all.
> 
> Utilities, phone, cable.


Yep. As Vi suggests, I was already planning on switching all the bills over to her before I go.



Ceegee said:


> It will take a while to go into foreclosure, right?
> 
> All of this will take a toll on you. Those problems you listed will still exist. They'll just come from a different source.


How so? I'm not sure what you mean.



Pluto2 said:


> PB, you say you don't really care about your credit score (which will go down about 150-200 points). Be sure to consider:
> 1. Many landlords who will rent to someone with bad credit may require double a security deposit for bad credit.
> 2. Credit cards that you are still paying on can go up in interest once the foreclosure is on record, causing you to pay more than you anticipate.
> 3. You will get hit with a hefty tax bill for what ever outstanding debt is forgiven by the lender.
> 4. You run the risk of jeopardizing any future employment and get to explain to employers what happened.
> 5. If you want a future home, it will be next to impossible for seven years, and that's provided you work to improve your credit score-which you say you aren't going to bother with.


Already considered most of them...

I will start renting long before the foreclosure process ever begins.
My credit cards should be paid off within months of finalizing the divorce.
Knew that going in.
I've been working at the same employer for the last 15 years. There is no danger of me losing my job. I don't plan on searching for a new job.
I'll almost certainly continue to rent that apartment near the high school until the kids graduate high school -- in 5 years. Since I've cleared AXW's crap off my credit report, my score is currently quite good. A 150-200 point hit will return my score to the level it was at when we bought the house. And right now, eliminating my debts will only serve to improve my score.



Pluto2 said:


> Having said all that, I'd let her sink with the house, too.


 :smthumbup:



Tron said:


> If you want out of the house and off the note, see if you can get your attorney to force a sale and put the house on the market. If your W wants to buy it on her own, then great, you just got yourself off the hook for all those risks you just mentioned.


Since we are both on the deed and mortgage, I can't unilaterally put the house up for sale. She'd have to agree to it.

And it would be far more work and trouble to put it up for sale, and have her buy it (for one thing, she'd be half buying it from herself, which would be a conflict of interest). No real estate agent or mortgage broker is going to go for that. They'll just say, "Refinance."



catcalls said:


> as I mentioned earlier, is there no way to sell the house. or dont they do this thing in USA where they return the keys to the bank if the house is under.


There's ways to negotiate settlements with the lender, if it goes that far. It greatly depends on the lenders, the lendees, the house, and other circumstances.

The house certainly could be sold, but... She needs to agree to it. I would still need to rely on her doing her part with the paperwork and documents. And between the remainder on our mortgage and prevailing housing prices in our neighborhood, it'd be a toss-up as to whether selling the house would give us a profit or a loss. Plus, all the while it's on the market, until it gets sold, someone still has to pay the mortgage.



catcalls said:


> she is a leech, she will bleed you dry. all along you are reacting to her poor behaviour and setting boundaries. what if you start making her react, i.e. you act proactively, either selling or moving out.


That's exactly what I'm aiming for, here. 



catcalls said:


> ps. i understand why you are struggling for money, but why is she struggling. she has hardly any living expenses, rent and she steals food.


It's hard to say... From the bank records she previously provided, she withdraws cash in $200 sums about once a week. She's bought a lot of concert tickets, rented limos, eats out with her friends a lot... Blows her money on a lot of that sort of thing.

I'd expect she doesn't understand why she's struggling, either.


----------



## vi_bride04

Pbartender said:


> Since we are both on the deed and mortgage, I can't unilaterally put the house up for sale. She'd have to agree to it.
> 
> 
> The house certainly could be sold, but... She needs to agree to it. I would still need to rely on her doing her part with the paperwork and documents.


This is where I am at currently. He still has to agree to the sale, and I need his cooperation for financial documents for BofA. We are both on the mortgage, I am primary, he is only a co-signer. He is on the deed. He can block the sale if he wanted or just be a pain in the @ss and not provide the financial documents. And he is great at being a PITA so I am expecting him to block it. 

I should know in the next month what legal steps I can take to force him to sell the house..but not sure anything is possible like that. Might be different in my case since he was awarded the house and then abandoned it stating "I am moving and after I am gone you can have the house and do whatever you want with it" The contempt of court route I'm trying to go might be able to force his hand...? :scratchhead: 

If I learn anything regarding forcing one to sell I'll let you know.


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> PB always assume the worst when strategizing.
> 
> Therefore assume the house WILL go into foreclosure.
> 
> Now list the pro's and cons to that scenario.


Of course, aside from the pros of moving into my own place, there's really no pros specifically to going into foreclosure. 

But, you have a point... what are the effects?

First, foreclosure doesn't happen overnight. In Illinois, the timeline looks something like this (from Neighborhood Services of Chicago):



> *30-60 days late* You miss your second payment. When your lender calls, it is important to pick up the phone and speak to your lender Let your lender know why you can’t pay and when you may be able to pay in the future.
> 
> *60-120 days late* You miss your third payment. Lender sends you a notice of intent to foreclose and contacts its attorney to initiate foreclosure proceedings. Your foreclosure will become a matter of public record, and you will begin to receive solicitations in the mail, on the phone, and in person with offers of “help.” These offers are generally “too-good-to-be-true” and may lead you further into trouble. Be wary of scams.
> 
> *120-175 days late* You will be personally served with a summons by the sheriff or a process server. Avoiding answering the door will not help. If they are unable to serve you in person, a public listing in the newspaper will serve as your notice. You will have 30 days to reply.
> 
> *60 days after being served* If you do not answer the summons, a default motion may be filed and a default judgment may be entered against you.
> 
> *90 days after being served* Your right to reinstate your loan expires. (Reinstatement means paying your lender the total amount past due, including the monthly payments owed, late fees, court costs and attorney’s fees.)
> 
> *7 mo. after being served or 3 mo. after judgement whichever is later* Your right to redemption expires. (Redemption refers to your right to pay off your loan, usually through a sale of the house or refinance.) Your house will be sold at a sheriff’s foreclosure sale.
> 
> *15 days after sale* Order confirming the sale of your property and order for eviction is entered. Order for eviction is stayed 30 days (giving you 30 days to move).
> 
> *30 days after order of sale entered* Order of eviction goes to sheriff. You may be forcibly evicted.


So, that's about 12-15 months to complete the foreclosure.

In the meantime, a settlement can be negotiated with the lender, the past due amounts can still be paid up to stop the process, or the house could be sold and the proceeds used to pay off the mortgage.

Also, consider this...

The MSA already stipulates the terms of one or the other of us taking ownership of the house... Requirements to pay the bills, to refinance the mortgage, and to sell the house if refinancing fails.

So, why not just add in another... For example: If any mortgage payment falls more than 30 days past due, then the house must be sold, and if there is a loss she would cover it 100%.


----------



## catcalls

Pbartender said:


> Of course, aside from the pros of moving into my own place, there's really no pros specifically to going into foreclosure.
> 
> But, you have a point... what are the effects?
> 
> First, foreclosure doesn't happen overnight. In Illinois, the timeline looks something like this (from Neighborhood Services of Chicago):
> 
> 
> 
> So, that's about 12-15 months to complete the foreclosure.
> 
> In the meantime, a settlement can be negotiated with the lender, the past due amounts can still be paid up to stop the process, or the house could be sold and the proceeds used to pay off the mortgage.
> 
> Also, consider this...
> 
> The MSA already stipulates the terms of one or the other of us taking ownership of the house... Requirements to pay the bills, to refinance the mortgage, and to sell the house if refinancing fails.
> 
> So, why not just add in another... For example: If any mortgage payment falls more than 30 days past due, then the house must be sold, and if there is a loss she would cover it 100%.


like your thinking here. you are becoming very rational and not letting your emotions guide you. indeed you could stop paying the mortgage. 

any responsible person would be worried if their mortgage was not being paid. but your AXW will think of it as a game of brinkmanship and try to act nonchalant. all the while she will be panicking because she does not know what is hitting her. what happened to responsible yet dour pbartender. would be fun to watch ;-)


----------



## Conrad

I know I don't have all the facts, but after a successful prosecution where you obtained a support order, what's the point of risking foreclosure now?

It takes 10 full years to clear from your credit report.


----------



## Pluto2

Pbartender said:


> Also, consider this...
> 
> The MSA already stipulates the terms of one or the other of us taking ownership of the house... Requirements to pay the bills, to refinance the mortgage, and to sell the house if refinancing fails.
> 
> So, why not just add in another... For example: If any mortgage payment falls more than 30 days past due, then the house must be sold, and if there is a loss she would cover it 100%.


Never in a million years would she agree to that. I doubt she will take over the house because she knows it takes work and that's just not her "thing". If there is a sale, or if there is a foreclosure it will all be on you. And I think that just sucks. But it will get you free. Sorry we're monopolizing your break.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> I know I don't have all the facts, but after a successful prosecution where you obtained a support order, what's the point of risking foreclosure now?


Since I'm already in bullet point mode, I've got several different answers to that question, Conrad. They're all true and valid. Pick whichever you like...


The situation changed. Amongst other things, that was a large part of the reason behind obtaining the court order. A change in the situation was not unexpected. Her changing her mind on the house was a little bit unexpected. Now, I'm reassessing my options, so I can modify the plans for my next step appropriately and accordingly.
In the aftermath of enforcing the court order, I caught wind of AXW making noises about keeping the house because, "He's made it financially impossible for me to move." The idea of moving out intrigued me. I'm waiting for the "official" response from her lawyer, and I'm a little bored. So, I'm amusing myself by exploring that option.
You guys were all locked on and trigger-happy on the whole food thing, which something that is an irritating annoyance, but of no real consequence to me. Mavash left a door open that I could use to divert and deflect your collective attentions, and I took it. It worked.   

In other words, I'm not risking foreclosure... Not yet. I'm mostly just planning ahead, and making sure I fully understand the effects and consequences of making that decision before I make that decision.


----------



## Pbartender

Pluto2 said:


> Never in a million years would she agree to that. I doubt she will take over the house because she knows it takes work and that's just not her "thing". If there is a sale, or if there is a foreclosure it will all be on you. And I think that just sucks. But it will get you free.


While I was working this afternoon, it occurred to me that she might not actually want the house.

I think it highly likely that she is under the impression that I _*really*_ want to keep the house. And that she thinks she can use that fact to get me to effectively pay her to leave the house. Months ago, she wasn't really listening when I told her, "You can have the house, if you want it. But if you don't want it, then I'd rather keep it than sell it."

In other words, the important part may not be "Will Pbar leave so I can keep the house", but rather the "He is making in financially impossible for me to leave" part.

I suspect she thinks asking for the house is a safe "threat" that I'll never agree to. I don't think she's considered the possibility that I'd actually let her have it, and the ramifications of that possibility.

I suspect that this is simply another manipulative, passive-aggressive attempt to get more money out of me.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> I suspect that this is simply another manipulative, passive-aggressive attempt to get more money out of me.


At least she's consistent.


----------



## Pluto2

Your AXW gives me a headache


----------



## Nucking Futs

Pbartender said:


> I suspect that this is simply another manipulative, passive-aggressive attempt to get more money out of me.


I'd like to see her face when you agree to it.


----------



## Pam

My mind is boggled. She's living in your basement, stealing food out of her childrens' mouths, did everything she could to circumvent paying anything to keep a roof over her childrens' heads, and accusing you of stealing her jewelry. Doesn't want to pay rent, because "she could save up faster, to move out", but hasn't even attempted to save during the months that she absolutely wasn't paying any rent.

I'm with Pluto. She gives me a headache. But she should have massive headaches herself, because I have heard that living with a vacuum between your ears is painful. Just heard it.

I am one of the most cautious people out there, financially, but I'm almost at the point to offer to help you move into that apartment. And then advise you to hunker down and endure the storm. What you have isn't endurable living conditions.


----------



## Pbartender

Pluto2 said:


> Your AXW gives me a headache


She gives YOU a headache?

:rofl:


----------



## Pbartender

Oh look! Another text bombing!

_"RE: dividing possessions. I have been assuming that you would want to keep the computer."_

_"I would like to keep the Wii and the TV & Blu-Ray from upstairs..."_

_"You would get the TV & Blu-Ray from your room if that works."_

_"Also, anything you want from the kitchen as I purchased new pans, utensils, etc already."_

Heh... Nothing at all from her since she threatened to call the cops about the jewelry a week and a half ago... And now for no reason out of nowhere, this? Seriously? Of all the trivialities. 

Wow.


----------



## Pbartender

Well, we got their response, finally. And it seems I over-estimated AXW.

Not only does AXW want to stay in the house, but...

...she'll let me keep my entire retirement account if I let her.



:woohoo: :yay: :corkysm60: :smthumbup: :bounce: :toast:


----------



## BK23

Pbartender said:


> Well, we got their response, finally. And it seems I over-estimated AXW.
> 
> Not only does AXW want to stay in the house, but...
> 
> ...she'll let me keep my entire retirement account if I let her.
> 
> 
> 
> :woohoo: :yay: :corkysm60: :smthumbup: :bounce: :toast:


That's awesome. Don't jump at the offer, demand a bit more, and even then agree reluctantly. Better she thinks she won.


----------



## Mavash.

She doesn't like paying you those support payments. Either that or Lucky needs a place to crash. LOL

Either way AWESOME news!!


----------



## Nucking Futs

BK23 said:


> That's awesome. Don't jump at the offer, demand a bit more, and even then agree reluctantly. Better she thinks she won.


:iagree:

Tell her you you'll do it but you want the jewelry she accused you of stealing and the wii too.


----------



## Mavash.

I'm the dissenting opinion. I say agree to whatever you can just to be done with this. Get her to sign while she's so agreeable.


----------



## vi_bride04

I wiped the rest of my ex's 401k out....

I'd take her up on that offer.


----------



## Ceegee

Is her attorney a distant relative of yours maybe? 

That's awesome.


----------



## Pbartender

Huh...

I was going to sleep on it, and tell my attorney to pass on official word in the morning, but D13 let it slip to AXW that I was talking about moving. 

So, she came to me, and we had a surprisingly civil face-to-face conversation about the whole matter. We hammered out some of the nitty-gritty logistical details without the slightest bit of craziness or drama.

Then, later, she calls me with another question... She essentially said, "Yeah, you were right to begin with... It'd make more sense to divvy up the kids' expenses, instead of both of us paying 50/50 on all of them." And even ended the call with, "I'm glad we're talking like this now."

Doesn't make a lick of difference with regards to the divorce... But it would be nice to see that attitude continue for the sake of co-parenting.


----------



## catcalls

i think she is softening you up. suddenly she starts behaving like a civil human being, something is up !!! be careful and dont give anything away.


----------



## Pbartender

Oh, I'm not letting my guard down, by any means. One day of civility does not make it a regular habit.

Emotionally speaking, her tide is high. It's time for me to make sail, while I've got the chance.


----------



## catcalls

Mavash. said:


> I'm the dissenting opinion. I say agree to whatever you can just to be done with this. Get her to sign while she's so agreeable.


I agree, the sooner you can get out of this relationship with your skin intact the better. but you dont want to give her any sniff that you will compromise or she will see it as a weakness. better she sees you as a chump she can manipulate and think she is getting away with it rather than her thinking that you are a fierce warrior


----------



## Mavash.

She's a rebellious teenager. You've let her have her way (to crash and burn) and on occasion she's realized that fighting you made no sense. Like that time before the judge when the offer you made was better than the one she got.

Even teenagers have moments of rational thinking.


----------



## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> Even teenagers have moments of rational thinking.


No... not really.

Her words say it. Her actions don't.

Kids and I went to a minor league baseball game (complete with fireworks show!) last night. While we were there, AXW ordered more than $100 worth of "sexy" costumes off of Amazon.com. 

:slap:


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## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> No... not really.
> 
> Her words say it. Her actions don't.
> 
> Kids and I went to a minor league baseball game (complete with fireworks show!) last night. While we were there, AXW ordered more than $100 worth of "sexy" costumes off of Amazon.com.
> 
> :slap:


Hopefully they're uniforms for her new job. She's going to need it to support her new lifestyle.


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## Mavash.

Pbartender said:


> No... not really.
> 
> Her words say it. Her actions don't.
> 
> Kids and I went to a minor league baseball game (complete with fireworks show!) last night. While we were there, AXW ordered more than $100 worth of "sexy" costumes off of Amazon.com.
> 
> :slap:


My friend was like this complete with spending money she didn't have on sexy costumes, cigarettes, and purses.

She still had 'moments' where she behaved and acted like a grownup. Notice I said 'moments'. LOL


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## BURNT KEP

Ceegee said:


> Hopefully they're uniforms for her new job. She's going to need it to support her new lifestyle.


:rofl:


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## Chopsy

Wow, what a change! Get out while the tide is high PB! I doubt she will continue to be so amicable, bit long may it last regarding co-parenting! Imagine, you will soon be on your own and won't have to worry about leftovers disappearing! Yeah I know, you didnt care, but for some reason that always riled me up. Super chuffed for you, you deserve a medal for surviving living in that house for as long as you did with stbx. Get out while you can!


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## Pbartender

Just got a lead on a rental house in the neighborhood nearby where we used to live.

Same rent as the 3-br apartment I was looking at, and it'll be available to move to on the 1st of the month.

I'm going to ditch out of work early, meet up with the landlord, and take a tour of the house this afternoon.

This could work.


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## tom67

Pbartender said:


> Just got a lead on a rental house in the neighborhood nearby where we used to live.
> 
> Same rent as the 3-br apartment I was looking at, and it'll be available to move to on the 1st of the month.
> 
> I'm going to ditch out of work early, meet up with the landlord, and take a tour of the house this afternoon.
> 
> This could work.


Good luckray:


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## Pbartender

Thanks!

If it doesn't work out, I've got other options... But this would be a sweet deal, if I can get it.


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## Pluto2

fingers crossing....


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## Pbartender

Kids and I just got back from taking a peek at that house rental.

Eh... The house is small, tired and worn out. Needs some serious renovations.

It could work, but I think the apartment townhomes would be better for us... The kids agreed.


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## GutPunch

Apartments don't have yard maintenance. Apartments have cheaper utilities. Apartments have lots of singles too. Jus Sayin.

Top floor energy bills are generally higher.


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## Pbartender

Tomorrow, 1:00 pm.


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## Pbartender

Trying to keep myself busy until this afternoon. :corkysm60:

So, I had some paperwork I needed to mail out yesterday. While I was at work, I sent her a text from just asking if there were any stamps at home... She replies:

_"I don't see any."_

So I just stopped by the Post Office on the way home from work. Later... I get text bombed again...

_"I got some stamps."_

_"They're in the kitchen drawer with the garbage stickers."_

_"Also, all the paperwork looks good."_

_"One other thing..."_

_"D13 is talking about wanting a laptop."_

_"I was wondering if you'd be interested in splitting the cost of one for her birthday or Christmas present."_

I never even asked her to get stamps.

Also, D13 had already talked to me about the laptop... She had already made a deal with AXW... If D13 saved up her babysitting money and paid for half, then AXW would pay for the other half. D13 was very excited about it.

But her birthday's more than a month away... And AXW will have a mortgage payment and utility bills and groceries to deal with.



Then, just now...

*AXW:* Can you tell S15 that he didn't put out those boxes for recycling like I asked him to?

*PB:* He did... He put them in the big bin with the other recycling.

*AXW:* Ok thanks

*AXW:* Around 11 would you be able to drive D13 to the middle school so could put stuff in her locker?

*AXW:* I was going to, but I am not sure if I will have time to do that and get to the bank this morning.


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## BURNT KEP

Pbartender said:


> Trying to keep myself busy until this afternoon. :corkysm60:
> 
> So, I had some paperwork I needed to mail out yesterday. While I was at work, I sent her a text from just asking if there were any stamps at home... She replies:
> 
> _"I don't see any."_
> 
> So I just stopped by the Post Office on the way home from work. Later... I get text bombed again...
> 
> _"I got some stamps."_
> 
> _"They're in the kitchen drawer with the garbage stickers."_
> 
> _"Also, all the paperwork looks good."_
> 
> _"One other thing..."_
> 
> _"D13 is talking about wanting a laptop."_
> 
> _"I was wondering if you'd be interested in splitting the cost of one for her birthday or Christmas present."_
> 
> I never even asked her to get stamps.
> 
> Also, D13 had already talked to me about the laptop... She had already made a deal with AXW... If D13 saved up her babysitting money and paid for half, then AXW would pay for the other half. D13 was very excited about it.
> 
> But her birthday's more than a month away... And AXW will have a mortgage payment and utility bills and groceries to deal with.
> 
> 
> 
> Then, just now...
> 
> *AXW:* Can you tell S15 that he didn't put out those boxes for recycling like I asked him to?
> 
> *PB:* He did... He put them in the big bin with the other recycling.
> 
> *AXW:* Ok thanks
> 
> *AXW:* Around 11 would you be able to drive D13 to the middle school so could put stuff in her locker?
> 
> *AXW:* I was going to, but I am not sure if I will have time to do that and get to the bank this morning.


Well it looks like things are a little better but how long do you think that will last?


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## Pbartender

It's done.


----------



## catcalls

what is done? new apt?


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## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> It's done.


Was she present the whole time this time?


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## Pbartender

catcalls said:


> what is done? new apt?


The divorce.

I am officially single.


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## GutPunch

Pbartender said:


> The divorce.
> 
> I am officially single.


Congrats....One less kid to take care of.


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## 3Xnocharm

:toast:


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## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> The divorce.
> 
> I am officially single.


Lucky SOB!!


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## Tron

A DDay you can celebrate!

:woohoo:


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## Pluto2

So happy for you and your kids. Was she there?


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## ReGroup

Congratulations!

Many of us deal with a lot of bs - but your case takes the cake.

Awesome job all the way through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

Where's the party? Congratulations#
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ceegee

tom67 said:


> Where's the party? Congratulations#
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Party's at Mavs house. 

Soca and PB are cooking. 

A12 & DYRC are providing the entertainment. 

I'm bringing the women.


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## Nucking Futs

Congratulations PB! I wish you and your kids all the happiness you deserve. And I wish your ex wife all the happiness she _deserves_, too.


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## vi_bride04

Join the singles thread lol


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## GutPunch

Ceegee said:


> Party's at Mavs house.
> 
> Soca and PB are cooking.
> 
> A12 & DYRC are providing the entertainment.
> 
> I'm bringing the women.


I'll bring the corn chips and PB can bring the neck beard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pbartender

Last Call!

You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.


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## Mavash.

Ceegee said:


> Party's at Mavs house.


You picked wisely. I have a big house with a big pool.


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## Ceegee

Mavash. said:


> You picked wisely. I have a big house with a big pool.


I picked your house because your H is "super nice" and knew he'd be cool with it. :smthumbup:


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## Pbartender

Mavash. said:


> You picked wisely. I have a big house with a big pool.


Oooh... I'll get to show off my fishbelly.


----------

