# Talking to your SO about sex



## 482

We were driving home the other night from a night out with some friends I suggest we go to the beach and have sex (late at night in the truck). She says no. I was a bit disappointed and not real happy. I was not fighting about it or even discussing it because I was not sure why I was so bothered by it. I just went to bed. I admit I could have just pushed through this and delivered on a good rest of the night but something was off from that point on. 

The next day she demands an apology from me for treating her so bad and making her feel like she is not good enough. I still do not much understand where all that came from. Like I said I just went to bed. I even held her close in bed before she decided to roll over and go to sleep. The next day I did apologize to her for making her upset the night before because clearly I hurt her feelings somehow. She apologized for the name calling. This did not change the dynamic of the conversation. It almost seemed to make no difference at all. 

I spent most of that first night awake thinking about why this is bothering me so much. I identified why it was bothering me. I have tried to discuss this with her 3 times now. Every time I do I never get to actually discuss the real issues with her (still have not been able to) because she seems very uncomfortable talking about it. She almost immediately starts raising her voice, talking over me and sending direct invites to fight with her. Every time she does this I don't much want to talk to her. It feels like I'm talking to someone who does not much care about discussing this. Feels like I am talking to someone who is completely put off by this whole conversation. Its an inconvenience to her to discuss this. I feel like I have to turn into a lawyer, it just sucks from a communication standpoint. I feel like anytime a topic is sensitive to her the conversation falls apart and drags on for days and days. The problem is as soon as she gets like this I stop listening. I just don't have much interest in fighting. I want to have a discussion like an adult without all the escalation. 

I would love to discuss this stuff with her and genuinely feel like the person I am talking to wants to discuss it just as much as I do. 

Is your SO very uncomfortable discussing their sex life with you? Does she take any suggestions or discussions as a personal attack?


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## wild jade

A lot of people - most people probably - get defensive when you are telling them they are not good enough. Learn how to defuse and mediate, so that you can calm the defensive reaction. It's a good skill -- useful for all sorts of situations.


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## Bananapeel

I talk openly about sex with every woman I'm with and I'm not ashamed to openly express what I want. The fact that you apologized to her is a bit strange to me. Usually in those situations I'd just ask why it bothered her and try to get her to open up to me with probing questions until I really understood her point of view. It sounds like your relationship dynamic is one where she is in charge of your sex life, and probably most everything else. Are you OK with maintaining that dynamic?


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## 482

wild jade said:


> A lot of people - most people probably - get defensive when you are telling them they are not good enough. Learn how to defuse and mediate, so that you can calm the defensive reaction. It's a good skill -- useful for all sorts of situations.


Totally understand. I would also get defensive if someone were telling me I was not good enough. The thing is that is the way she takes it not the way I say it. I just want to discuss our sex life. She takes that as she is not good enough sexually. How do you defuse when this takes place? I try to just reinforce that I want to have a productive discussion not a fight. I also try very hard not to allow her to drag me into an argument. I admit I need to get better at that.


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## 482

Bananapeel said:


> I talk openly about sex with every woman I'm with and I'm not ashamed to openly express what I want. The fact that you apologized to her is a bit strange to me. Usually in those situations I'd just ask why it bothered her and try to get her to open up to me with probing questions until I really understood her point of view. It sounds like your relationship dynamic is one where she is in charge of your sex life, and probably most everything else. Are you OK with maintaining that dynamic?


I would not be ok with that, this is far from the dynamic of our relationship. When you have had these discussions in the past has anyone ever got defensive or uncomfortable discussing it? If so how did you handle that?


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## Faithful Wife

It sounds like what happened was that you suggested sex and she declined, and then you turned pouty.

It's really sucky when you are faced with a pouter after turning down sex. It's not sexy, it's childish, and it's selfish to behave that way rather than communicate about it.

You go on to say that when you try to discuss things she over reacts and then you pout and shut down again.

You both sound like you need help with adult communication and you're both turning each other off with your communication methods.

As someone who wishes I could go back in time and end all of my own childish communication habits in my marriage, I would urge you to just focus on your own communication and understand your own part in this. Have you read NMMNG to understand covert contracts and other poor communication some men do? That one might be useful. Passionate Marriage and other books by Schnarch may help you too (if you can handle the dry textbook nature of the authors style).


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## 482

Faithful Wife said:


> It sounds like what happened was that you suggested sex and she declined, and then you turned pouty.
> 
> It's really sucky when you are faced with a pouter after turning down sex. It's not sexy, it's childish, and it's selfish to behave that way rather than communicate about it.
> 
> You go on to say that when you try to discuss things she over reacts and then you pout and shut down again.
> 
> You both sound like you need help with adult communication and you're both turning each other off with your communication methods.
> 
> As someone who wishes I could go back in time and end all of my own childish communication habits in my marriage, I would urge you to just focus on your own communication and understand your own part in this. Have you read NMMNG to understand covert contracts and other poor communication some men do? That one might be useful. Passionate Marriage and other books by Schnarch may help you too (if you can handle the dry textbook nature of the authors style).


Pouty is not sexy that much I know. Thats what little boys do (NMMNG and NUTS). I am not sure if she thinks that is what I am doing. Mostly I am just trying to understand why I feel the way I do before I discuss it. It often takes me a little bit to figure that out and I don't want to start talking prior to that and blurt out some type of verbal diarrhea. In the past I have just took some time to myself for this reflection and to figure out what is going on. She has asked me to remain present even when things are uncomfortable like this so that is what I have been doing for her. I agree we need help with communication. I have not read passionate marriage I will add that to my list, I am a big time informational reader so that should not be a problem. Have you ever had issues discussing your sex life with your SO?


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## Bananapeel

I am able to have discussions with a very receptive tone/body posture, which really helps. I also understand that when women get angry about something it is usually because they don't feel like you understand them, so I use probing questions to figure out why they feel that way rather than trying to argue my point of view. There are lots of books on communication tactics, which you might want to read so you are better prepared for the situations. 

A couple of times when I was married my wife had some disagreements with me about sex. I discussed it with her openly and honestly, which was a bit uncomfortable for her (she even cried once because she felt guilty) but after all those years of being together she already expected that communication style from me. My discussions weren't about finding fault or trying to change her, but she knew that if she wasn't willing to talk like a mature adult and consider my feelings on the matter I would walk and never look back. I made sure to take the leadership role in the discussion which meant I made sure I didn't use an accusatory tone, but instead framed it towards us working with shared long term goals. 

I have had other experiences with women that say they won't do certain things sexually and have a bit of a defensive attitude. I just diffuse it by saying that they can do whatever they are comfortable with while I have a very sincere/non-judgmental look on my face. The reason this resistance doesn't bother me is I understand women. In general what most women will do with you sexually is directly linked to how attracted she is to you and how turned on she is. So, I don't worry because if I do my job right she'll get past her hang-ups and do anything I want. If I can't get her to voluntarily change her mind then I know I don't excite her enough to stay in a relationship with her and I'll jump ship and find someone else. 

My advice to you is #1 work on your communication skills. And #2, realize that women acting they way yours does is actually a blessing because it is a direct expression of how attracted she is to you. By knowing to decipher her attraction level you can decide whether she is someone that you want to continue seeing. I don't personally date women that aren't insanely attracted to me because I enjoy having an exciting sex life with an enthusiastic partner, irrespective of how much I like them because dating someone that isn't a great match for me is just not something I'm interested in.


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## Faithful Wife

Sex life - no - that is not usually the problem topic for me in relationships. In my marriage, there were other issues we had a difficult time discussing. I wish I had just figured out how to stop any and all poor communication on my end. Then maybe I could have seen his side differently too. But as long as we were both convinced we were right and had some kind of high ground, we could never communicate at all.

At the time, if I described a fight we had had to a friend, I would have described it as if I was totally in the right and he was totally in the wrong. But now I see it completely differently. We were both just stubborn fools, neither of us was right.

If you can change your thinking about all of this and just focus on your communication, stop thinking she is doing something wrong and just work on finding your own best communication skills, she will begin to respond to you differently. 

Another good book is Non Violent Communication.


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## 482

Bananapeel said:


> I am able to have discussions with a very receptive tone/body posture, which really helps. I also understand that when women get angry about something it is usually because they don't feel like you understand them, so I use probing questions to figure out why they feel that way rather than trying to argue my point of view. There are lots of books on communication tactics, which you might want to read so you are better prepared for the situations.
> 
> A couple of times when I was married my wife had some disagreements with me about sex. I discussed it with her openly and honestly, which was a bit uncomfortable for her (she even cried once because she felt guilty) but after all those years of being together she already expected that communication style from me. My discussions weren't about finding fault or trying to change her, but she knew that if she wasn't willing to talk like a mature adult and consider my feelings on the matter I would walk and never look back. I made sure to take the leadership role in the discussion which meant I made sure I didn't use an accusatory tone, but instead framed it towards us working with shared long term goals.
> 
> I have had other experiences with women that say they won't do certain things sexually and have a bit of a defensive attitude. I just diffuse it by saying that they can do whatever they are comfortable with while I have a very sincere/non-judgmental look on my face. The reason this resistance doesn't bother me is I understand women. In general what most women will do with you sexually is directly linked to how attracted she is to you and how turned on she is. So, I don't worry because if I do my job right she'll get past her hang-ups and do anything I want. If I can't get her to voluntarily change her mind then I know I don't excite her enough to stay in a relationship with her and I'll jump ship and find someone else.
> 
> My advice to you is #1 work on your communication skills. And #2, realize that women acting they way yours does is actually a blessing because it is a direct expression of how attracted she is to you. By knowing to decipher her attraction level you can decide whether she is someone that you want to continue seeing. I don't personally date women that aren't insanely attracted to me because I enjoy having an exciting sex life with an enthusiastic partner, irrespective of how much I like them because dating someone that isn't a great match for me is just not something I'm interested in.


Thank you for your comments. Clearly there will be limits everyone has them, me included. Then like you said you have to determine if you are ok with the compromise in one area (sexually or otherwise). I don't think any relationship is 100 perfect. There will always be compromise. Or alternatively if you are not ok with the compromise there is always the option to end the relationship. Do you remember the books on communication you read?


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## 482

Faithful Wife said:


> Sex life - no - that is not usually the problem topic for me in relationships. In my marriage, there were other issues we had a difficult time discussing. I wish I had just figured out how to stop any and all poor communication on my end. Then maybe I could have seen his side differently too. But as long as we were both convinced we were right and had some kind of high ground, we could never communicate at all.
> 
> At the time, if I described a fight we had had to a friend, I would have described it as if I was totally in the right and he was totally in the wrong. But now I see it completely differently. We were both just stubborn fools, neither of us was right.
> 
> If you can change your thinking about all of this and just focus on your communication, stop thinking she is doing something wrong and just work on finding your own best communication skills, she will begin to respond to you differently.
> 
> Another good book is Non Violent Communication.


Thank you. Stubborn fools often describes us. Ill check out that book


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## toblerone

Had a talk a couple weeks ago with the wife about the lack of intimacy. She agreed it was a problem- but the 'conversation' was pretty much her doing most of the talking about this or that. I didn't get much say, didn't really have a lot of chances to express myself. It turned into her talking about how she doesn't feel like she has control in a lot of things in her life, that she's overwhelmed, or that I left a dish in the sink.

I usually don't bring things up with her at all. Too many times, she'll take it as a personal attack. Or, she'll get pretty defensive and start talking about a million other things instead of what I brought up.

For instance, this weekend we had a brief getaway with the kid and she was talking about a machine that was broken. I said "Oh yea, we tried that one last time, I don't think it works at all". She got very upset and say I always criticize her for everything and make her feel like she can't do anything right.

I turned away, sighed, and just looked out the window. I kept my thoughts to myself, which were mainly that she will always nitpick at things I've done, sometimes in a ****ty way, so it's like the pot calling the kettle black. I might have, but the kid was in the room. I mainly didn't though because it would have just made her worse. Too often, anything that can be construed as criticism of any sort, she gets extremely defensive. So I just don't bother.

I had to leave the room for another reason. When I came back, she apologized for how she was acting. Which was a first.


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## Bananapeel

482 said:


> Thank you for your comments. Clearly there will be limits everyone has them, me included. Then like you said you have to determine if you are ok with the compromise in one area (sexually or otherwise). I don't think any relationship is 100 perfect. There will always be compromise. Or alternatively if you are not ok with the compromise there is always the option to end the relationship. Do you remember the books on communication you read?


If you are looking for a classic on general communication/persuasion then Dale Carnegie's book "How to win friends and influence people" is a good starting point. I also like David Lieberman's self-help books (there are several to choose from), which basically look at the psychology behind human interactions and give you tips on how to use that for your advantage. If those don't do it for you, just send me a PM and I'll give other recommendations.


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## 482

toblerone said:


> Had a talk a couple weeks ago with the wife about the lack of intimacy. She agreed it was a problem- but the 'conversation' was pretty much her doing most of the talking about this or that. I didn't get much say, didn't really have a lot of chances to express myself. It turned into her talking about how she doesn't feel like she has control in a lot of things in her life, that she's overwhelmed, or that I left a dish in the sink.
> 
> I usually don't bring things up with her at all. Too many times, she'll take it as a personal attack. Or, she'll get pretty defensive and start talking about a million other things instead of what I brought up.
> 
> For instance, this weekend we had a brief getaway with the kid and she was talking about a machine that was broken. I said "Oh yea, we tried that one last time, I don't think it works at all". She got very upset and say I always criticize her for everything and make her feel like she can't do anything right.
> 
> I turned away, sighed, and just looked out the window. I kept my thoughts to myself, which were mainly that she will always nitpick at things I've done, sometimes in a ****ty way, so it's like the pot calling the kettle black. I might have, but the kid was in the room. I mainly didn't though because it would have just made her worse. Too often, anything that can be construed as criticism of any sort, she gets extremely defensive. So I just don't bother.
> 
> I had to leave the room for another reason. When I came back, she apologized for how she was acting. Which was a first.


Ouch that sounds borderline abusive and you're just eating it. I would never want my kids to witness that. That would not be ok with me. Also if I do not discuss things the resentment builds fast. I will not live with resentment.


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## 482

Bananapeel said:


> If you are looking for a classic on general communication/persuasion then Dale Carnegie's book "How to win friends and influence people" is a good starting point. I also like David Lieberman's self-help books (there are several to choose from), which basically look at the psychology behind human interactions and give you tips on how to use that for your advantage. If those don't do it for you, just send me a PM and I'll give other recommendations.


Dale Carnegie's book "How to win friends and influence people". This book is in my stack but I have not read it yet . I will look into the others. Thank you

Any particular David Lieberman's you recommend?


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## Fozzy

If verbal communication gets easily derailed and/or redirected, try written communication. Give her bullet points if necessary. At least then you know your message was received.


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## Steve2.0

Go read: 
The Way of the Superior Man - David Deida
or Hold on to your NUTs
- they are both like 2-3 hours long to read and provide great insight into this


It explains this pretty easily and seems to be a normal trap that husbands fall into.

Its one thing to be disappointing that you got rejected sex, its another to act childish/rude a bout it.

Maybe she just didn't want sand in her ass


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## 482

Fozzy said:


> If verbal communication gets easily derailed and/or redirected, try written communication. Give her bullet points if necessary. At least then you know your message was received.


Thanks for the tip. I have tried that one in the past but it tends to make things much worse. So far the best results have been in person. Seeing my face and me seeing hers is proved to be very important in the heated discussions in the past.


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## 482

Steve2.0 said:


> Go read:
> The Way of the Superior Man - David Deida
> or Hold on to your NUTs
> - they are both like 2-3 hours long to read and provide great insight into this
> 
> 
> It explains this pretty easily and seems to be a normal trap that husbands fall into.
> 
> Its one thing to be disappointing that you got rejected sex, its another to act childish/rude a bout it.
> 
> Maybe she just didn't want sand in her ass


I love both of the books. Nuts was last year but I probably have been through it several times since then. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.... The Superior man was recent, what an awesome book, easily one of the best books I have read so far. Trust me I was not childish and rude. I was disappointed and I did my level best to not let it show while remaining present for her. Further thought revealed that it was not the disappointment of her saying no it was many other things and this just flipped the switch. LOL sand in the ass, it was in the truck.


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## SadSamIAm

The problem with this type of thing and my wife is that it could be fine to say something like what you said one day, but totally piss her off the next day. And it is very hard (impossible) for me to predict.

So after 30 years of marriage, there tends to be very little communication. Which brings up the next argument, which is that I don't talk to her enough.


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## EllisRedding

It is not entirely clear, is this the only time you have had an issue with a sex related topic, or this has been an ongoing issue? If ongoing, what exactly is the issue (it is hard to gauge why she possibly reacted the way she did without understanding possible context beyond truck sex on a beach). You said in your opening post not being able to discuss the real issue with her, what is the real issue???


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## 482

EllisRedding said:


> It is not entirely clear, is this the only time you have had an issue with a sex related topic, or this has been an ongoing issue? If ongoing, what exactly is the issue (it is hard to gauge why she possibly reacted the way she did without understanding possible context beyond truck sex on a beach). You said in your opening post not being able to discuss the real issue with her, what is the real issue???


This is not an ongoing issue. One thing that is an ongoing issue is how ****ty we communicate when things get sensitive. The real issues ended at the discussion about the first thing desire. 

I want to feel her desire more, not just after I turn her on. This can be done in many ways in my mind but I never got to discuss any of them because she got defensive and says crazy things like I think she is not good enough sexually and in many other ways. This is not the case at all. Desire to me is initiating sex, making sexual suggestions verbally or in messages. Showing me that she has a deep desire to have great sex with me. I am always making sure she feels desired and is sexually satisfied. I wanted to sometimes feel that same desire from her. Surprise me sometimes

I want to be able to communicate about sex openly. In the past and present things have given me an underlying feeling that open discussion about sex (during or not) is a bad idea. She takes it as far as saying things like I think she should do whatever I want sexually and she should be ok with it. This is far from the truth. I just want to be able to turn to my SO and have an honest discussion about my wants and needs. If she does not want me to have this conversation with her who does she think I should have it with? I just want to have a good relationship. Sexual and otherwise. 

I want to feel like our sex life is between me and her only. I feel like no matter what happens in our relationship her whole family and group of close friends knows all about it. Does not feel very intimate. Almost like there is other people in the room with us all the time. 

Also there is some more physical things I wanted to discuss also but I just cannot discuss this kind of stuff with someone when I have to enter lawyer mode 24/7. I am going to try what others have mentioned and probe to find out why she is so upset and unable to communicate. Also I am building a shopping cart of the books mentioned that I have not read. Thank everyone for the comments, keep them coming.


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## Faithful Wife

482 said:


> Also there is some more physical things I wanted to discuss also but I just cannot discuss this kind of stuff with someone when I have to enter lawyer mode 24/7. I am going to try what others have mentioned and *probe to find out why she is so upset and unable to communicate*. Also I am building a shopping cart of the books mentioned that I have not read. Thank everyone for the comments, keep them coming.


When you do this, please do it without thinking she is "wrong" about something. If you approach this trying to correct her in anyway, you won't be successful. You instead need only to correct your own communication.

Please don't "go into lawyer mode" and then blame it on her "making" you do that. You do that because you do that. Own it and stop it. Don't treat your wife that way. Don't blame her for your treating her that way, either. It is poor communication on your side that causes you to go into lawyer mode.


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## EllisRedding

482 said:


> This is not an ongoing issue. One thing that is an ongoing issue is how ****ty we communicate when things get sensitive. The real issues ended at the discussion about the first thing desire.
> 
> I want to feel her desire more, not just after I turn her on. This can be done in many ways in my mind but I never got to discuss any of them because she got defensive and says crazy things like I think she is not good enough sexually and in many other ways. This is not the case at all. Desire to me is initiating sex, making sexual suggestions verbally or in messages. Showing me that she has a deep desire to have great sex with me. I am always making sure she feels desired and is sexually satisfied. I wanted to sometimes feel that same desire from her. Surprise me sometimes
> 
> I want to be able to communicate about sex openly. In the past and present things have given me an underlying feeling that open discussion about sex (during or not) is a bad idea. She takes it as far as saying things like I think she should do whatever I want sexually and she should be ok with it. This is far from the truth. I just want to be able to turn to my SO and have an honest discussion about my wants and needs. If she does not want me to have this conversation with her who does she think I should have it with? I just want to have a good relationship. Sexual and otherwise.
> 
> *I want to feel like our sex life is between me and her only. I feel like no matter what happens in our relationship her whole family and group of close friends knows all about it. Does not feel very intimate. Almost like there is other people in the room with us all the time.*
> 
> Also there is some more physical things I wanted to discuss also but I just cannot discuss this kind of stuff with someone when I have to enter lawyer mode 24/7. I am going to try what others have mentioned and probe to find out why she is so upset and unable to communicate. Also I am building a shopping cart of the books mentioned that I have not read. Thank everyone for the comments, keep them coming.


Do you make the same face as your avatar during sex, that could be a big part of the problem :grin2:

Sounds like she may have some hangups regarding sex (possibly past relationships, how she was raised, etc...)

As far as the bolded, can you expand on? Your W is discussing your sex life with family/friends, or are you just talking about when other marital issues come up?

The desire thing is tough, b/c how you perceive desire and she perceives may be completely different (different love language). It also may depend on what else is going on (not sure if you have kids, etc...). This has been a topic in my marriage, I would say how you view desire is in line with my thoughts as well, but unfortunately it doesn't frequently materialize that way.


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## 482

Faithful Wife said:


> When you do this, please do it without thinking she is "wrong" about something. If you approach this trying to correct her in anyway, you won't be successful. You instead need only to correct your own communication.
> 
> Please don't "go into lawyer mode" and then blame it on her "making" you do that. You do that because you do that. Own it and stop it. Don't treat your wife that way. Don't blame her for your treating her that way, either. It is poor communication on your side that causes you to go into lawyer mode.


Thank you. I'm going to do my best. Its hard when she is dead set on arguing. Lawyer mode goes like this. I start to discuss things by saying "I spent most of last night thinking about this so I can be clear about exactly how I feel" She then immediate interrupts me not allowing me to tell her how I feel with "Thats funny because every time I woke up you were sleeping" I see this as her calling me a liar and trying to pull me into an argument. Makes it real hard. I understand what your saying though. I can only fix me is this mess.


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## 482

EllisRedding said:


> Do you make the same face as your avatar during sex, that could be a big part of the problem :grin2:
> 
> Sounds like she may have some hangups regarding sex (possibly past relationships, how she was raised, etc...)
> 
> As far as the bolded, can you expand on? Your W is discussing your sex life with family/friends, or are you just talking about when other marital issues come up?
> 
> The desire thing is tough, b/c how you perceive desire and she perceives may be completely different (different love language). It also may depend on what else is going on (not sure if you have kids, etc...). This has been a topic in my marriage, I would say how you view desire is in line with my thoughts as well, but unfortunately it doesn't frequently materialize that way.


I only make that face when we have sex she loves it, lmao. :grin2:

I have a feeling its something to do with the upbringing. Hopefully she will open up to me so I can understand what is going on. She married a POS at 26 and waited a long time to become sexual. I am her 4th partner. Discussing sex life with family and friends in addition to other things. Its not the other things I care about but our sex life. Its weird sometimes when her sisters or their husbands know we had sex and how it was. Often feels like nothing is private between us. Desire smh on that one.


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## EllisRedding

482 said:


> I only make that face when we have sex she loves it, lmao. :grin2:
> 
> I have a feeling its something to do with the upbringing. Hopefully she will open up to me so I can understand what is going on. She married a POS at 26 and waited a long time to become sexual. I am her 4th partner. Discussing sex life with family and friends in addition to other things. Its not the other things I care about but our sex life. *Its weird sometimes when her sisters or their husbands know we had sex and how it was*. Often feels like nothing is private between us. Desire smh on that one.


Yikes at the bolded ...

One thing I didn't mention, not sure if you have seen the term Responsive Desire thrown around. Some people think it is fooey, others believe it has merit. I would say my W in many ways fits the responsive desire definition.


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## Faithful Wife

482 said:


> Thank you. I'm going to do my best. Its hard when she is dead set on arguing. Lawyer mode goes like this. I start to discuss things by saying "I spent most of last night thinking about this so I can be clear about exactly how I feel" She then immediate interrupts me not allowing me to tell her how I feel with "Thats funny because every time I woke up you were sleeping" I see this as her calling me a liar and trying to pull me into an argument. Makes it real hard. I understand what your saying though. I can only fix me is this mess.


"I spent most of last night thinking about this so I can be clear about exactly how I feel" sounds like right out of the gate, you are mostly concerned about how YOU feel. See that? It's very subtle, but it is there. So her immature responses to that comment only seem like a mirror of the self centered nature of it.

Truly desiring to understand how SHE feels is what will get you moving forward. And realize that she may not have put any effort into organizing her thoughts around how she feels, so whatever point at which you begin communication to truly understand how SHE feels, she will not be prepared with a long, logical list of words for you. She will have to discover how she feels as she is talking about it. Your goal should be to keep listening without judgement.

A lot of times we will hear a spouse say "yeah he/she told me it was because such and such but I know that's bs". And I'm reading thinking "well no, it probably isn't bs you just don't feel how he/she feels so you can't understand why they feel that way, then you proclaim it bs but that's not going to get you anywhere".

So....to you she seems "dead set on arguing". To her, that likely is not what is happening within her. So if you keep seeing it that way, you won't get anywhere.


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## JayDee7

Maybe try to diffuse the anger right from the start. Try saying something like “I love you and am very attracted to you and I enjoy our sex very much. The sex we have is great, I get so much pleasure from your body and I would like to have it more often. Also, I would like for us to be more adventurous. I know that we are getting older and I want for us to enjoy each other as much as possible now before it is too late. Do you have any ideas about new things we can do sexually that you’d like? I have a couple of ideas I hope we can try.”

If you know what she will flip out about just address it lovingly before she gets the chance and control the conversation with direct questions and direct statements and keep the conversation short. End suggestions with the word “okay?” Like, “next time we drive by the beach how about we stop and jump in the back seat or the bed of the truck like we used to... okay?” 

Good luck

If she complains about things cut her off and remind her about your complaints. Why should her complaints outweigh yours? My wife did this once that I can remember, she did not want to do a little extra something for me sexually and said “oh you have it sooooo bad because I do not want to _____ tonight” I said “you have it soooo bad your loving husband who would do anything for you wants for you to ______ tonight.” She ended up doing the thing I wanted. She needs to be reminded how silly she sounds when she complains. Try it.


----------



## Holdingontoit

One of the keys in dealing with these difficult topics is putting aside your self-interest. It may well be the case that, if your spouse truly believes something or feels a certain way, then they are not likely to be willing to meet one or another of your needs. If that is the case, then many of us are "programmed" selfishly to reject accepting that our spouse actually feels the way. after all, if they truly feel that way, then we would be selfish and rude to ask them to engage in behavior that causes them pain or requires superhuman effort to accomplish. In order not to seem to ourselves to be selfish and rude, we tell ourselves "oh, they don't really feel that way, so what I am asking from them is not unreasonable." Then we even say it out loud "oh, I know you don't really feel that way". Then we are shocked when they get insulted and complain that we don't take their needs and feelings seriously.

So, if you find yourself doing this, stop arguing against what your spouse is telling you - even if that means you likely will NOT get what you want. You have a much better chance of eventually (might be a while) getting what you want if you validate your spouse's feelings and concerns than if you belittle them or are dismissive of them. I know, vey hard to do when it is something important. But when the issue is important, all the more reason to be even more careful to validate your spouse's views.

The best part of this is, if you do it, it will highlight any "deal breaker" incompatibility sooner rather than later.


----------



## badsanta

482 said:


> *...from me for treating her so bad and making her feel like she is not good enough.
> 
> I feel like I have to turn into a lawyer...*
> 
> Is your SO very uncomfortable discussing their sex life with you? Does she take any suggestions or discussions as a personal attack?


When discussing intimacy with your wife you can NOT get defensive! Be playful instead...

For example if she claims you are making her feel inadequate do not try and defend yourself. Instead be extremely confident, act all surprised, and take it as a compliment! Say, "well honey if you do not feel you are good enough for me, is that your super sneaky way of trying to tell me that I am sexy and awesome?"

Just trust me! You will get a much better reaction that being all serious and talking as if you are a lawyer!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Young at Heart

Dear 482;

One of the things I learned in a Gottmans Art & Science of Love weekend is that some people, especially when they feel guilty about something, go into an emotional flooding mode. 

Emotional flooding is much like fight or flight response. An Adrenalin overload literally shuts down the brains ability to think and conduct a rational discussion. My wife will on occasion do this when we talk about sex. She will often try to start a fight so as to (flight) avoid the discussion.

What I have learned is to be the rational adult and do one of two things. One is when she says something to start a fight, is not to get angry, but ask in a calm vice, why she said what she did was it to start a fight? Sometimes she will say she has no idea and apologize. We may or may not be able to continue the discussion.

The other thing that seems to work, is to say to her that this is important and something we must discuss. I then say it is clear you are not ready to discuss it now. I then say that I want her to think about the topic and that we will discuss it after dinner on some date certain.

My wife has a lower desire level than I do, has lots of self image and inhibitions. Over the years she has promised me more than she can deliver sexually and feels extremely guilty, which is why she will often emotionally flood. In sex therapy she learned that I have limits and we came very close to divorce. With negotiation help from a sex therapist we set some boundaries on what it takes to remained married.

Be gentle, she is like quite scared and guilty, the fights are not about you, but about her and where she is at mentally. You might need professional help.

Good Luck.


----------



## arbitrator

Bananapeel said:


> I talk openly about sex with every woman I'm with and I'm not ashamed to openly express what I want. The fact that you apologized to her is a bit strange to me. Usually in those situations I'd just ask why it bothered her and try to get her to open up to me with probing questions until I really understood her point of view. It sounds like your relationship dynamic is one where she is in charge of your sex life, and probably most everything else. Are you OK with maintaining that dynamic?


*This will be Arbitrator’s mantra from here on out!

In fact, if a love interest of mine either outright, or begrudgingly refuses to have sex, unlovingly refuses to give or receive oral outside of verifiable personal medical reasons, of course, then that is going to be a tremendous “deal-breaker!” At least by then, I’d know about her noted aversion to it going into having a serious relationship with her!

IMHO, this particular relationship dynamic must be met, or the relationship is all but doomed!

And that’s greatly in addition to other personal deal-breakers for me like her having abhorrent behavior toward me as well as others, a “holier-than-thou” attitude, being a prude, a racist, selfish in nature, a money- grubbing crone, has “funny-paper” skin(tattoos), is a Trump sympathizer, and an inability to at least half-way be able to intelligently converse!*


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## 269370

I don’t think there’s anything wrong expecting a satisfying sex life from a marriage and making it known when it’s consistently (and without good reasons) not the case. And not made to feel bad about voicing concerns.
You can buy all the books you want about how to talk to your wife about sex: if she doesn’t want to **** you, I’m afraid you are out of luck even with the best speech prepared.
If it’s however isolate incidents here and there then there’s no reason to get too hung up on it.

Sure, a bit of humour can help but she will just say that you are making fun of her (in order to have another excuse not to have sex with you).
Again, provided she is really not ‘into’ you that much.
And sometimes, lets face it, spouses are right: it may not be the most comfortable venue for intercourse: what if she lands on the gear shift instead by mistake? Our ideas about sex locations may not align with theirs...which is fair enough.
I remember being so keen to do it in the open once: we spent an hour at least in the dark, looking for a suitable field in the open (on my initiative) only to find floodlights all over ass (I meant ‘us’) as soon as we got ‘comfortable’, as it turned out to be a football field.

But it seems from your post that you get shut down for even bringing up sex. If that’s the case, perhaps it’s a good idea to first work out why it is off the table in the first place, rather than discussing WHERE to do it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wild jade

482 said:


> Totally understand. I would also get defensive if someone were telling me I was not good enough. The thing is that is the way she takes it not the way I say it. I just want to discuss our sex life. She takes that as she is not good enough sexually. How do you defuse when this takes place? I try to just reinforce that I want to have a productive discussion not a fight. I also try very hard not to allow her to drag me into an argument. I admit I need to get better at that.


To defuse, you need to listen actively, give her space to have her own, uncorrected, point of view, validate that this is her point of view, and give her real choices for moving forward.

If she feels ambushed, invalidated, like the conversation is going to be about why she is inadequate or why she has to improve, or how she isn't measuring up to your ideals, then she's very likely to stay defensive. Especially if there's no ownership on your part that you too have failings.

If she feels heard, validated, and like the conversation will very much be productive for her as well as you, and that she has real say in how things should look moving forward, then she is much more likely to engage.


----------



## Livvie

482 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> When you do this, please do it without thinking she is "wrong" about something. If you approach this trying to correct her in anyway, you won't be successful. You instead need only to correct your own communication.
> 
> Please don't "go into lawyer mode" and then blame it on her "making" you do that. You do that because you do that. Own it and stop it. Don't treat your wife that way. Don't blame her for your treating her that way, either. It is poor communication on your side that causes you to go into lawyer mode.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I'm going to do my best. Its hard when she is dead set on arguing. Lawyer mode goes like this. I start to discuss things by saying "I spent most of last night thinking about this so I can be clear about exactly how I feel" She then immediate interrupts me not allowing me to tell her how I feel with "Thats funny because every time I woke up you were sleeping" I see this as her calling me a liar and trying to pull me into an argument. Makes it real hard. I understand what your saying though. I can only fix me is this mess.
Click to expand...

It's hard to have a relationship with someone who provides you with an unhealthy dynamic. 

It takes two people to make a relationship happy and healthy. Maybe she will never be a positive partner.


----------



## ConanHub

Just offering moral support. Mrs. C and I spent the first week of our relationship in bed with her talking to me about how to ring her chimes.

I guess we started off right in the sex department and we have never had a problem talking about sex.

The most uncomfortable it gets is getting a little shy or blushing when one of us is bringing up something new we want to try.

You maybe need to get better at sharing your feelings and in an inviting manner?

If she is getting defensive, she isn't feeling safe for whatever reason.

If you can figure out how to help her feel secure, loved and desired by you, you might have a hard time defending yourself from her affection!

Women who feel safe, sexy and loved are usually pretty amorous.


----------



## WilliamM

I don't really understand. I can talk with my wife about anything. 

On our first date I explained to her I required three things of a spouse. Endless hot sex, no addiction to hard drugs, and she better not hurt our children. 

We don't talk much, but there is nothing we are hesitant to talk about. Certainly neither of us would be defensive. It is my opinion, and like the proverbial *******, that defensiveness and combativeness in a conversation is a sign the two people conversing are more interested in their own egos than in each other's hearts.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

You mentioned your wife had a POS in her past? My wife would always go on the attack, saying "What do you want from me?!!!" whenever I would bring up sex.

This article finally got thru to her - https://forgivenwife.com/unbearable-lessons/

Getting angry was her way of keeping me at bay. I had her read article & told her "I am not the POS from your past, and I refuse to be treated like I am"


----------



## 482

Young at Heart said:


> Dear 482;
> 
> One of the things I learned in a Gottmans Art & Science of Love weekend is that some people, especially when they feel guilty about something, go into an emotional flooding mode.
> 
> Emotional flooding is much like fight or flight response. An Adrenalin overload literally shuts down the brains ability to think and conduct a rational discussion. My wife will on occasion do this when we talk about sex. She will often try to start a fight so as to (flight) avoid the discussion.
> 
> What I have learned is to be the rational adult and do one of two things. One is when she says something to start a fight, is not to get angry, but ask in a calm vice, why she said what she did was it to start a fight? Sometimes she will say she has no idea and apologize. We may or may not be able to continue the discussion.
> 
> The other thing that seems to work, is to say to her that this is important and something we must discuss. I then say it is clear you are not ready to discuss it now. I then say that I want her to think about the topic and that we will discuss it after dinner on some date certain.
> 
> 
> My wife has a lower desire level than I do, has lots of self image and inhibitions. Over the years she has promised me more than she can deliver sexually and feels extremely guilty, which is why she will often emotionally flood. In sex therapy she learned that I have limits and we came very close to divorce. With negotiation help from a sex therapist we set some boundaries on what it takes to remained married.
> 
> Be gentle, she is like quite scared and guilty, the fights are not about you, but about her and where she is at mentally. You might need professional help.
> 
> Good Luck.


Amazing post. This post saved me. We started to talk and she quickly escalated as usual. She continued to find ways to get out of the truck all the way home to avoid talking. On the last stop before home while she was in the store I read this post. When she came back and started to escalate and continue to start fighting by saying things we already talked about in exhausting detail I just said why are you continuing to start a fight with me in a calm voice. This started us talking and it seemed like things were going well when she started to escalate again. I then said I really need to talk to her about this stuff, its important, and when she is ready to talk to let me know. I left. She called 1 hour later and we finally talked. She completely understands how I feel. I completely understand how she feels. We talked calmly and clearly. When she started to escalate I just asked her why she was doing that as calm as I could. Don't let me paint a pretty picture here I need to get better at not engaging in the fight invitations among other things for her. Thank you sir


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## 482

wild jade said:


> To defuse, you need to listen actively, give her space to have her own, uncorrected, point of view, validate that this is her point of view, and give her real choices for moving forward.
> 
> If she feels ambushed, invalidated, like the conversation is going to be about why she is inadequate or why she has to improve, or how she isn't measuring up to your ideals, then she's very likely to stay defensive. Especially if there's no ownership on your part that you too have failings.
> 
> If she feels heard, validated, and like the conversation will very much be productive for her as well as you, and that she has real say in how things should look moving forward, then she is much more likely to engage.


Also very helpful. I read this around the same time. I started to say back to her exactly what her concern was and make sure I understood her completely. This helped a lot.


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## Satya

Just be wary. 

Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

It goes both ways, so she needs to be willing to listen and understand YOU as much as you are willing to do for HER. If it's always about understanding her, then she will not recognize and acknowledge that you have thoughts and opinions as well that need to be addressed.


----------



## 482

ConanHub said:


> Just offering moral support. Mrs. C and I spent the first week of our relationship in bed with her talking to me about how to ring her chimes.
> 
> I guess we started off right in the sex department and we have never had a problem talking about sex.
> 
> The most uncomfortable it gets is getting a little shy or blushing when one of us is bringing up something new we want to try.
> 
> You maybe need to get better at sharing your feelings and in an inviting manner?
> 
> If she is getting defensive, she isn't feeling safe for whatever reason.
> 
> If you can figure out how to help her feel secure, loved and desired by you, you might have a hard time defending yourself from her affection!
> 
> Women who feel safe, sexy and loved are usually pretty amorous.


Thanks. I think over time it will get more and more comfortable for her to talk with me. Like you said once she feels secure and safe doing so. Also I will get better at starting the discussions in a better way and not participating in the escalation.


----------



## 482

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> You mentioned your wife had a POS in her past? My wife would always go on the attack, saying "What do you want from me?!!!" whenever I would bring up sex.
> 
> This article finally got thru to her - https://forgivenwife.com/unbearable-lessons/
> 
> Getting angry was her way of keeping me at bay. I had her read article & told her "I am not the POS from your past, and I refuse to be treated like I am"


Wow. Perspective. She says some stuff that has no bearing on what is taking place almost just like its another person or situation she is speaking to;

I am mad about a situation and she says I am "punishing her" I explained that I am just mad and she asked me to be present. This is not a punishment, its just me being mad about x y or z. 

Or me wanting to talk about sex seems to say to her "I am not happy" "She is never good enough" "I will get bored with her" I did not say any of these things and when I try to understand where they are coming from it appears to have nothing to do with what is actually taking place. 

Someday maybe I will show her this if it keeps happening. Its just not a good time now. Thank you


----------



## alexm

Faithful Wife said:


> It sounds like what happened was that you suggested sex and she declined, and then you turned pouty.
> 
> It's really sucky when you are faced with a pouter after turning down sex. It's not sexy, it's childish, and it's selfish to behave that way rather than communicate about it.
> 
> You go on to say that when you try to discuss things she over reacts and then you pout and shut down again.
> 
> You both sound like you need help with adult communication and you're both turning each other off with your communication methods.
> 
> As someone who wishes I could go back in time and end all of my own childish communication habits in my marriage, I would urge you to just focus on your own communication and understand your own part in this. Have you read NMMNG to understand covert contracts and other poor communication some men do? That one might be useful. Passionate Marriage and other books by Schnarch may help you too (if you can handle the dry textbook nature of the authors style).


It might sound like that's what happened, but from my own personal experience, I can tell you that's not always the case!

Yes, some people (mainly men... lol) "pout". Bad idea all around, but it happens.

However, IME, my wife will sometimes project things on to me when things have been suggested and declined (like the example above of stopping at the beach and having car sex). Even if I'm not pouting, she assumes I am. This has happened more often than I'd like, TBH.

I think it's pressure she puts on herself. If I suggest something, or otherwise try to initiate, and she's not into it, then perhaps she sometimes feels bad, or guilty, and thus projects negativity on to me to validate her lack of interest in that moment.

The truth is, I haven't "pouted" in years now. It used to bother me (still does, TBH), but I just shrug it off nowadays.

I can tell you dozens of examples over the last year alone where I've shrugged off a "no" and she's come back at me making assumptions that I'm upset, or pouting, or being "cold" towards her.

I'm no psychologist, but it's almost as if she expects me to be upset when she says no, then when I'm not, it irks her.

It's sad to me, because it shows just how much her viewpoint on sexuality is broken. Maybe not "broken", that's pretty harsh. "Askew", or "off", maybe.

Regardless, it's a real catch-22, can't-win-either-way scenario for me. If I'm upset at her "no", I'm a ****. If I'm NOT upset at her "no", it's a slight against her. Like "Why is he okay with this? He should be upset!"

Cripes.

And to take it even further, there have been points in the last few years where I simply haven't initiated anything for long-ish stretches. And of course, she takes notice when this happens. Thinks something's wrong.

It's all very sad to me, honestly. I see this in others, not just my wife. "All you want from me is sex!" "How come you haven't been interested in sex lately?"

Which basically means: I don't need sex to be validated. Oh wait, yes I do. Now I don't, stop bugging me.

Sometimes within a 5 minute span. Sigh.


----------



## 482

alexm said:


> It might sound like that's what happened, but from my own personal experience, I can tell you that's not always the case!
> 
> Yes, some people (mainly men... lol) "pout". Bad idea all around, but it happens.
> 
> However, IME, my wife will sometimes project things on to me when things have been suggested and declined (like the example above of stopping at the beach and having car sex). Even if I'm not pouting, she assumes I am. This has happened more often than I'd like, TBH.
> 
> I think it's pressure she puts on herself. If I suggest something, or otherwise try to initiate, and she's not into it, then perhaps she sometimes feels bad, or guilty, and thus projects negativity on to me to validate her lack of interest in that moment.
> 
> The truth is, I haven't "pouted" in years now. It used to bother me (still does, TBH), but I just shrug it off nowadays.
> 
> I can tell you dozens of examples over the last year alone where I've shrugged off a "no" and she's come back at me making assumptions that I'm upset, or pouting, or being "cold" towards her.
> 
> I'm no psychologist, but it's almost as if she expects me to be upset when she says no, then when I'm not, it irks her.
> 
> It's sad to me, because it shows just how much her viewpoint on sexuality is broken. Maybe not "broken", that's pretty harsh. "Askew", or "off", maybe.
> 
> Regardless, it's a real catch-22, can't-win-either-way scenario for me. If I'm upset at her "no", I'm a ****. If I'm NOT upset at her "no", it's a slight against her. Like "Why is he okay with this? He should be upset!"
> 
> Cripes.
> 
> And to take it even further, there have been points in the last few years where I simply haven't initiated anything for long-ish stretches. And of course, she takes notice when this happens. Thinks something's wrong.
> 
> It's all very sad to me, honestly. I see this in others, not just my wife. "All you want from me is sex!" "How come you haven't been interested in sex lately?"
> 
> Which basically means: I don't need sex to be validated. Oh wait, yes I do. Now I don't, stop bugging me.
> 
> Sometimes within a 5 minute span. Sigh.



Interesting thanks. I'm going to see if thats the case next time. I never even considered that. 

I'm going to continue to discuss things to avoid resentment and needs not being met. I'm going to get better at not responding in a negative way to escalation and keep the discussions on track. I'm going to do better understanding what she is actually feeling and saying. With all that said I will also pay close attention to making sure she respects me enough to do the same for me.


----------



## alexm

inmyprime said:


> You can buy all the books you want about how to talk to your wife about sex: if she doesn’t want to **** you, I’m afraid you are out of luck even with the best speech prepared.


This dawned on me ~2 years ago.

Not discussing it any further (well, not approaching her about the subject, anyway) has improved things. Not to where I'd hoped, but nonetheless.

Sometimes a little aloofness and otherwise not letting things bother you is the right tactic. Some people simply play games, whether they realize it or not. Recognizing that it's a game and extricating yourself from playing it (unwittingly) often results in some sort of headway.

People who play games tend to always win. It's just tilted in their favour from the get-go. There are ways you can not play the game without announcing you're not. Change the rules without saying so. Don't do the expected.


----------



## alexm

482 said:


> Interesting thanks. I'm going to see if thats the case next time. I never even considered that.
> 
> I'm going to continue to discuss things to avoid resentment and needs not being met. I'm going to get better at not responding in a negative way to escalation and keep the discussions on track. I'm going to do better understanding what she is actually feeling and saying. With all that said I will also pay close attention to making sure she respects me enough to do the same for me.


A word of warning - you have to mean it when you tell yourself it doesn't bother you. It can quickly go too far in the wrong direction, to the point where it appears you don't care at all.

My wife is generally pretty aloof about things, drama-free. A real "it is what it is" kind of woman, and not in a negative, defeatist kind of way. I love that about her.

When it comes to sex, my wife cares far less about it then I do. So matching her feelings and attitudes towards it and not making it such a big deal has, ironically, caused her to think about it. As I said, it seems to irk her when she says "no" and I'm totally okay with it. Funny how that works.

It's that ever-present conundrum of "I say I don't want this, but when it's no longer there, I realize that I actually need it".


----------



## 482

inmyprime said:


> You can buy all the books you want about how to talk to your wife about sex: if she doesn’t want to **** you, I’m afraid you are out of luck even with the best speech prepared.


 @alexm

To be clear this is luckily not the case with us. She is definitely interested in sex almost as much as me and is very much attracted to me. This for the most part has become a 90% communication problem and 10% sex problem, something we encounter a lot. This is the reason for the book suggestions in regards to communications. I see your point though "preparing a speech" for a completely uninterested SO would be a waste of time. If I had a completely uninterested sexual partner my reaction would have been very different. Some things are wants "better communication" and others are needs "a fulfilling sex life"


----------



## 269370

482 said:


> @alexm
> 
> 
> 
> To be clear this is luckily not the case with us. She is definitely interested in sex almost as much as me and is very much attracted to me. This for the most part has become a 90% communication problem and 10% sex problem, something we encounter a lot. This is the reason for the book suggestions in regards to communications. I see your point though "preparing a speech" for a completely uninterested SO would be a waste of time. If I had a completely uninterested sexual partner my reaction would have been very different. Some things are wants "better communication" and others are needs "a fulfilling sex life"




Ok but if she doesn’t want to have sex with you on the beach (or insert other place), what is it that you want to talk to her about?
You want to find out more about the ‘whys’? Or you think the talks might change her mind?
Do you not think that she might be ‘escalating’ the talk because you won’t take no for an answer?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 482

inmyprime said:


> Ok but if she doesn’t want to have sex with you on the beach (or insert other place), what is it that you want to talk to her about?


Kind of unrelated to that. Desire, open sexual communication, and keeping our sex life between us.



inmyprime said:


> You want to find out more about the ‘whys’? Or you think the talks might change her mind?


No I completely understand why she said no. I don't want to change her mind. 



inmyprime said:


> Do you not think that she might be ‘escalating’ the talk because you won’t take no for an answer?


I do take the no for an answer. I have a lot of respect for her. I have been in relationships where the woman did not much respect herself, not assertive at all. These relationships did not last long. I will admit that I must get better at not letting it bother me. We did talk about this once things were calm enough to hear each other. We understand each other much better now as to why this type of thing is happening. From what I gathered so far the escalating is from her feeling like she is not good enough, our future being in jeopardy because of that, and she sometimes feels like me being upset (or not upset to @alexm point) is a punishment.


----------



## Holdingontoit

482 said:


> Or me wanting to talk about sex seems to say to her "I am not happy" "She is never good enough" "I will get bored with her" I did not say any of these things and when I try to understand where they are coming from it appears to have nothing to do with what is actually taking place.


When those thoughts are in her head, you may be tempted to argue against them. You may be tempted to say "I am happy, you are a great wife, and I will never get bored of you and never leave you." I think you will find that those reassurances fall flat and she will refuse to believe you. Even though you are sincere. I don't think you should waste any time or energy trying to make your reassurances seem more sincere. The answer does not lie in that direction.

Instead, agree with her fears. Validate that they are justified. Tell her "yes, at times I am disappointed with certain aspects of our sex life, yes, in the past you occasionally fell short of my dream partner, and yes, if you consistently fall short there is a chance I will either grow bored or frustrated and might even leave you over this." Then reassure her that you are not much worried about that outcome because most of the time she does a great job of meeting your needs and you know she is fully capable of doing so if she puts her mind to it. The way to eliminate her fear is NOT for you to let go of your hopes and dreams for sex. The way to eliminate her fear is for her to learn to be an excellent sex partner. So in the end the choice is hers. She can either learn to become a better sex partner or she can continue to live in fear that she disappoints you. Doesn't mean that she MUST become a better sex partner. But if she doesn't, then it is quite reasonable and rational for her to fear that her falling short in the sex department will negatively impact your relationship. Because it almost certainly will.

Then you take @badsanta's advice and turn on the playfulness and humor. Build up her confidence. Be fun. Be silly. Joke that she should not expect you to be a pushover and be "easy". That when she is determined to show you how great a lover she is, she should understand that you are going to do everything in your power to resist her admittedly overwhelming charms. Make it a game to see if she can satisfy you "against your will". @badsanta has much better examples and advice on this than I could ever hope to imagine. If you read his thread you will get the idea.

But the key point is not to downplay your wife's fears. They are the gateway to building a closer relationship. Validate that her fears are real.


----------



## 269370

alexm said:


> It might sound like that's what happened, but from my own personal experience, I can tell you that's not always the case!
> 
> Yes, some people (mainly men... lol) "pout". Bad idea all around, but it happens.
> 
> However, IME, my wife will sometimes project things on to me when things have been suggested and declined (like the example above of stopping at the beach and having car sex). Even if I'm not pouting, she assumes I am. This has happened more often than I'd like, TBH.
> 
> I think it's pressure she puts on herself. If I suggest something, or otherwise try to initiate, and she's not into it, then perhaps she sometimes feels bad, or guilty, and thus projects negativity on to me to validate her lack of interest in that moment.
> 
> The truth is, I haven't "pouted" in years now. It used to bother me (still does, TBH), but I just shrug it off nowadays.
> 
> I can tell you dozens of examples over the last year alone where I've shrugged off a "no" and she's come back at me making assumptions that I'm upset, or pouting, or being "cold" towards her.
> 
> I'm no psychologist, but it's almost as if she expects me to be upset when she says no, then when I'm not, it irks her.
> 
> It's sad to me, because it shows just how much her viewpoint on sexuality is broken. Maybe not "broken", that's pretty harsh. "Askew", or "off", maybe.
> 
> Regardless, it's a real catch-22, can't-win-either-way scenario for me. If I'm upset at her "no", I'm a ****. If I'm NOT upset at her "no", it's a slight against her. Like "Why is he okay with this? He should be upset!"
> 
> Cripes.
> 
> And to take it even further, there have been points in the last few years where I simply haven't initiated anything for long-ish stretches. And of course, she takes notice when this happens. Thinks something's wrong.
> 
> It's all very sad to me, honestly. I see this in others, not just my wife. "All you want from me is sex!" "How come you haven't been interested in sex lately?"
> 
> Which basically means: I don't need sex to be validated. Oh wait, yes I do. Now I don't, stop bugging me.
> 
> Sometimes within a 5 minute span. Sigh.



Or....could you be projecting onto her that she might be projecting? (As in, you believe that she is expecting you to ‘pout’ or mistakes your shruggings for pouting?)
This all seems too complicated...

Can’t you just say that you are uncomfortable and hurt that she is not having sex with you/coming onto you/is against having sex on the beach/truck/spaceship/chandelier or whatever?
If she says ‘all you want from me is sex’, just say ‘right now, yes I do. Is this a problem for you?’

I don’t understand this whole ‘pouting’ business. It seems, some women are not comfortable with the fact that men don’t jump up and down with joy when their spouse turns them down. Why? Is it better to say: “darling, I’m so incredibly relieved you actually are declining, I was worried I would actually have to sleep with you this one time’. Is that that much better?

What does it matter whether someone is pouting or not? The point is to let the spouse know when you are unhappy about something. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s much worse to accumulate all the crap and become resentful or forever ‘poutful’.
Or find somebody who doesn’t make you pout in the first place.


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## 482

Holdingontoit said:


> When those thoughts are in her head, you may be tempted to argue against them. You may be tempted to say "I am happy, you are a great wife, and I will never get bored of you and never leave you." I think you will find that those reassurances fall flat and she will refuse to believe you. Even though you are sincere. I don't think you should waste any time or energy trying to make your reassurances seem more sincere. The answer does not lie in that direction.
> 
> Instead, agree with her fears. Validate that they are justified. Tell her "yes, at times I am disappointed with certain aspects of our sex life, yes, in the past you occasionally fell short of my dream partner, and yes, if you consistently fall short there is a chance I will either grow bored or frustrated and might even leave you over this." Then reassure her that you are not much worried about that outcome because most of the time she does a great job of meeting your needs and you know she is fully capable of doing so if she puts her mind to it. The way to eliminate her fear is NOT for you to let go of your hopes and dreams for sex. The way to eliminate her fear is for her to learn to be an excellent sex partner. So in the end the choice is hers. She can either learn to become a better sex partner or she can continue to live in fear that she disappoints you. Doesn't mean that she MUST become a better sex partner. But if she doesn't, then it is quite reasonable and rational for her to fear that her falling short in the sex department will negatively impact your relationship. Because it almost certainly will.
> 
> Then you take @badsanta's advice and turn on the playfulness and humor. Build up her confidence. Be fun. Be silly. Joke that she should not expect you to be a pushover and be "easy". That when she is determined to show you how great a lover she is, she should understand that you are going to do everything in your power to resist her admittedly overwhelming charms. Make it a game to see if she can satisfy you "against your will". @badsanta has much better examples and advice on this than I could ever hope to imagine. If you read his thread you will get the idea.
> 
> But the key point is not to downplay your wife's fears. They are the gateway to building a closer relationship. Validate that her fears are real.


Awesome points. I am on the same page with you on this one for sure. For example when she brings up things about our future and jeopardizing our relationship my answer is always consistent. Its also the same answer I give when we discuss other peoples relationships that are clearly unhappy. Her take is that he stays with her because he loves her, the kids, the family, etc. Because of this he accepts his unhappiness like a blind sheep. My take is I just cannot understand why someone would remain in a relationship unhappy, its bad for both of them, the kids, and the family. I am careful to make sure I do not placate her. I try hard to be clear about how I feel. It does get hard sometimes to not want to make her happy when she is hurting by saying things like "you should never feel like you are not good enough for me". I can see my faults in not delivering a consistent message when saying something like that and like your saying "downplay your wife's fears".


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## 269370

482 said:


> Kind of unrelated to that. Desire, open sexual communication, and keeping our sex life between us.
> 
> 
> No I completely understand why she said no. I don't want to change her mind.
> 
> 
> 
> I do take the no for an answer. I have a lot of respect for her. I have been in relationships where the woman did not much respect herself, not assertive at all. These relationships did not last long. I will admit that I must get better at not letting it bother me. We did talk about this once things were calm enough to hear each other. We understand each other much better now as to why this type of thing is happening. From what I gathered so far the escalating is from her feeling like she is not good enough, our future being in jeopardy because of that, and she sometimes feels like me being upset (or not upset to @alexm point) is a punishment.




Perhaps you can be more precise what it is you want to discuss with her in terms of ‘desire, open sexual communication, and keeping our sex life between us’ etc. The only reason I can think of for her to feel like she is not good enough is if she feels you are trying to change something. If you are trying to change something, it means there’s something you feel she is not doing right.

If not having sex on the beach is unrelated to all that, i wonder why you mentioned it?
Didn’t you say that it bothered you a lot?
If it’s the ‘not having the conversation about why she didn’t have sex with you’ that bothered you, what do you think would have changed if she DID have that conversation with you and reiterated that she didn’t feel like having sex with you?
Sorry, I’m a little confused.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> When those thoughts are in her head, you may be tempted to argue against them. You may be tempted to say "I am happy, you are a great wife, and I will never get bored of you and never leave you." I think you will find that those reassurances fall flat and she will refuse to believe you. Even though you are sincere. I don't think you should waste any time or energy trying to make your reassurances seem more sincere. The answer does not lie in that direction.
> 
> 
> 
> Instead, agree with her fears. Validate that they are justified. Tell her "yes, at times I am disappointed with certain aspects of our sex life, yes, in the past you occasionally fell short of my dream partner, and yes, if you consistently fall short there is a chance I will either grow bored or frustrated and might even leave you over this." Then reassure her that you are not much worried about that outcome because most of the time she does a great job of meeting your needs and you know she is fully capable of doing so if she puts her mind to it. The way to eliminate her fear is NOT for you to let go of your hopes and dreams for sex. The way to eliminate her fear is for her to learn to be an excellent sex partner. So in the end the choice is hers. She can either learn to become a better sex partner or she can continue to live in fear that she disappoints you. Doesn't mean that she MUST become a better sex partner. But if she doesn't, then it is quite reasonable and rational for her to fear that her falling short in the sex department will negatively impact your relationship. Because it almost certainly will.
> 
> 
> 
> Then you take @badsanta's advice and turn on the playfulness and humor. Build up her confidence. Be fun. Be silly. Joke that she should not expect you to be a pushover and be "easy". That when she is determined to show you how great a lover she is, she should understand that you are going to do everything in your power to resist her admittedly overwhelming charms. Make it a game to see if she can satisfy you "against your will". @badsanta has much better examples and advice on this than I could ever hope to imagine. If you read his thread you will get the idea.
> 
> 
> 
> But the key point is not to downplay your wife's fears. They are the gateway to building a closer relationship. Validate that her fears are real.



Excellent advice. But why oh why would you not apply this to your own marriage too, if I may ask?


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## 482

inmyprime said:


> Perhaps you can be more precise what it is you want to discuss with her in terms of ‘desire, open sexual communication, and keeping our sex life between us’ etc


I want to feel her desire more, not just after I turn her on. This can be done in many ways in my mind but I never got to discuss any of them because she got defensive and says crazy things like I think she is not good enough sexually and in many other ways. This is not the case at all. Desire to me is initiating sex, making sexual suggestions verbally or in messages. Showing me that she has a deep desire to have great sex with me. I am always making sure she feels desired and is sexually satisfied. I wanted to sometimes feel that same desire from her. Surprise me sometimes

I want to be able to communicate about sex openly. In the past and present things have given me an underlying feeling that open discussion about sex (during or not) is a bad idea. She takes it as far as saying things like I think she should do whatever I want sexually and she should be ok with it. This is far from the truth. I just want to be able to turn to my SO and have an honest discussion about my wants and needs. If she does not want me to have this conversation with her who does she think I should have it with? I just want to have a good relationship. Sexual and otherwise. 

I want to feel like our sex life is between me and her only. I feel like no matter what happens in our relationship her whole family and group of close friends knows all about it. Does not feel very intimate. Almost like there is other people in the room with us all the time. 



inmyprime said:


> The only reason I can think of for her to feel like she is not good enough is if she feels you are trying to change something. If you are trying to change something, it means there’s something you feel she is not doing right.


I'm not 100% sure why she feels not good enough. I'm sure I will learn more about why as time goes on if its related to things in her past or outside our relationship. I can tell you what made her react in this way. She declined my advance to have sex in a new and exciting way. I was not happy about that but at the time I was not very sure why (it often takes me a day or so to completely understand why I am feeling the way I am). I remained present with her and I was not some *******. I still held her and went to bed together but something was bothering me about this. Turns out its completely to do with desire. The lack of desire I am feeling from her is leaving a void in how I feel about our sex life. This is making it very hard to remain positive and push through the "no" when it comes. For me it would be great if the desire could be relayed and kept up. Like a positive sexual banter. Instead of her just saying no and acting like I asked her to reinvent the wheel maybe it could be something like "I'm not quite into that, or that is a no, but when we get home Im going to do that x, y or z I know you love". 

Its my fault for not being clear about how I feel and expecting her to be a fortune teller. For instance waiting for her to show me she desires me after this "no" then getting mad because it does not come is childish. But like I said it often takes me some time to understand why I am feeling the way I am so this is kind of a catch 22 for me. 

She took me being upset as I am mad with her. She takes me being mad as I am punishing her. After typing this out, yes it does appear I am trying to change some things. I want to feel her desire more, I want to feel like I can talk to her about anything (sexual or otherwise) openly, to me talking about sex should be just like talking about anything else. Also I want to feel like our sex life is between us, turns out it is.


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## EllisRedding

482 said:


> I want to feel her desire more, not just after I turn her on. This can be done in many ways in my mind but I never got to discuss any of them because she got defensive and says crazy things like I think she is not good enough sexually and in many other ways. This is not the case at all. Desire to me is initiating sex, making sexual suggestions verbally or in messages. Showing me that she has a deep desire to have great sex with me. I am always making sure she feels desired and is sexually satisfied. I wanted to sometimes feel that same desire from her. Surprise me sometimes


Sounds like she fits in with Responsive Desire . Question, would her faking/forcing her "desire" for you, in the way that you want to see it, be acceptable? 

I can relate very much of what you are saying above as I have had the same issues with my W, it is just trying to bridge the gap between how you want to feel desire and how she expressed desire (which may or may not be far off)


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## 482

EllisRedding said:


> Sounds like she fits in with Responsive Desire . Question, would her faking/forcing her "desire" for you, in the way that you want to see it, be acceptable?
> 
> I can relate very much of what you are saying above as I have had the same issues with my W, it is just trying to bridge the gap between how you want to feel desire and how she expressed desire (which may or may not be far off)


Faking is bad so no on that. With that said I often fake it till I make it if I know its an important need of hers. Understanding the ways we each show desire in our relationship (because they may be different) was part of our productive discussion. She expresses desire in response to mine, thats is how and when. I explained the ways I express desire to her, she agreed that makes her feel great. I explained that these are the same ways I like to feel desire from my SO. Some of them are a no because they feel totally not natural to her. Some are perfectly fine and I think she was just completely unaware of how important these little things were.


----------



## farsidejunky

alexm said:


> It might sound like that's what happened, but from my own personal experience, I can tell you that's not always the case!
> 
> Yes, some people (mainly men... lol) "pout". Bad idea all around, but it happens.
> 
> However, IME, my wife will sometimes project things on to me when things have been suggested and declined (like the example above of stopping at the beach and having car sex). Even if I'm not pouting, she assumes I am. This has happened more often than I'd like, TBH.
> 
> I think it's pressure she puts on herself. If I suggest something, or otherwise try to initiate, and she's not into it, then perhaps she sometimes feels bad, or guilty, and thus projects negativity on to me to validate her lack of interest in that moment.
> 
> The truth is, I haven't "pouted" in years now. It used to bother me (still does, TBH), but I just shrug it off nowadays.
> 
> I can tell you dozens of examples over the last year alone where I've shrugged off a "no" and she's come back at me making assumptions that I'm upset, or pouting, or being "cold" towards her.
> 
> I'm no psychologist, but it's almost as if she expects me to be upset when she says no, then when I'm not, it irks her.
> 
> It's sad to me, because it shows just how much her viewpoint on sexuality is broken. Maybe not "broken", that's pretty harsh. "Askew", or "off", maybe.
> 
> Regardless, it's a real catch-22, can't-win-either-way scenario for me. If I'm upset at her "no", I'm a ****. If I'm NOT upset at her "no", it's a slight against her. Like "Why is he okay with this? He should be upset!"
> 
> Cripes.
> 
> And to take it even further, there have been points in the last few years where I simply haven't initiated anything for long-ish stretches. And of course, she takes notice when this happens. Thinks something's wrong.
> 
> It's all very sad to me, honestly. I see this in others, not just my wife. "All you want from me is sex!" "How come you haven't been interested in sex lately?"
> 
> Which basically means: I don't need sex to be validated. Oh wait, yes I do. Now I don't, stop bugging me.
> 
> Sometimes within a 5 minute span. Sigh.


**** test.


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## EllisRedding

482 said:


> Faking is bad so no on that. With that said I often fake it till I make it if I know its an important need of hers. Understanding the ways we each show desire in our relationship (because they may be different) was part of our productive discussion. She expresses desire in response to mine, thats is how and when. I explained the ways I express desire to her, she agreed that makes her feel great. I explained that these are the same ways I like to feel desire from my SO. Some of them are a no because they feel totally not natural to her. Some are perfectly fine and I think she was just completely unaware of how important these little things were.


 @Buddy400 - thoughts?


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## Buddy400

alexm said:


> It might sound like that's what happened, but from my own personal experience, I can tell you that's not always the case!
> 
> Yes, some people (mainly men... lol) "pout". Bad idea all around, but it happens.
> 
> However, IME, my wife will sometimes project things on to me when things have been suggested and declined (like the example above of stopping at the beach and having car sex). Even if I'm not pouting, she assumes I am. This has happened more often than I'd like, TBH.
> 
> I think it's pressure she puts on herself. If I suggest something, or otherwise try to initiate, and she's not into it, then perhaps she sometimes feels bad, or guilty, and thus projects negativity on to me to validate her lack of interest in that moment.
> 
> The truth is, I haven't "pouted" in years now. It used to bother me (still does, TBH), but I just shrug it off nowadays.
> 
> I can tell you dozens of examples over the last year alone where I've shrugged off a "no" and she's come back at me making assumptions that I'm upset, or pouting, or being "cold" towards her.
> 
> I'm no psychologist, but it's almost as if she expects me to be upset when she says no, then when I'm not, it irks her.
> 
> It's sad to me, because it shows just how much her viewpoint on sexuality is broken. Maybe not "broken", that's pretty harsh. "Askew", or "off", maybe.
> 
> Regardless, it's a real catch-22, can't-win-either-way scenario for me. If I'm upset at her "no", I'm a ****. If I'm NOT upset at her "no", it's a slight against her. Like "Why is he okay with this? He should be upset!"
> 
> Cripes.
> 
> And to take it even further, there have been points in the last few years where I simply haven't initiated anything for long-ish stretches. And of course, she takes notice when this happens. Thinks something's wrong.
> 
> It's all very sad to me, honestly. I see this in others, not just my wife. "All you want from me is sex!" "How come you haven't been interested in sex lately?"
> 
> Which basically means: I don't need sex to be validated. Oh wait, yes I do. Now I don't, stop bugging me.
> 
> Sometimes within a 5 minute span. Sigh.


Assuming a good relationship with no significant problems:

As I see it, a goodly portion of a woman's sex drive is the need to be desired.

However, most women have a difficult time going from 0 to sex too quickly, so they're likely to not be in the mood when a man makes his desire clear. So, they have an initial tendency to say "No". 

If they don't see themselves as being worthy of desiring them, then any desire a man displays will be seen as feigning desire for her when it's really all about "using the most convenient hole to get off".

Ideally, a man who they are attracted to would always desire them (and make this clear), while they would be free to enjoy being the object of desire yet leave the man's desire unfulfilled if they weren't in the mood at the time. 

It would be nice for them if men were okay with this, but we're not (for the most part).

My compact with my wife is that I will express and display desire for her as long as she welcomes that desire the great majority of the time.


----------



## Buddy400

482 said:


> Faking is bad so no on that. With that said I often fake it till I make it if I know its an important need of hers. Understanding the ways we each show desire in our relationship (because they may be different) was part of our productive discussion. She expresses desire in response to mine, thats is how and when. I explained the ways I express desire to her, she agreed that makes her feel great. I explained that these are the same ways I like to feel desire from my SO. Some of them are a no because they feel totally not natural to her. *Some are perfectly fine and I think she was just completely unaware of how important these little things were*.


According to many experts, 75% of men have Spontaneous Desire (they have desire without being aroused first).

75% of women have Responsive Desire (the need to be aroused to have desire).

If this is the case, then most men with spontaneous desire aren't going to be able to pair up with a spontaneous desire woman.

Expecting a woman with responsive desire to behave like a man with spontaneous desire is asking for disappointment. 

It is very important for a woman with responsive desire to learn to say "well, let's give it a try" rather than "No, I'm not in the mood" if she expects to be in a happy sexual relationship with a spontaneous desire man.

However, the bolded is also very important. There were things that I wanted that I assumed my wife knew about that it turned out she was happy to do if she had only known.


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## 482

Buddy400 said:


> Assuming a good relationship with no significant problems:
> 
> As I see it, a goodly portion of a woman's sex drive is the need to be desired.
> 
> However, most women have a difficult time going from 0 to sex too quickly, so they're likely to not be in the mood when a man makes his desire clear. So, they have an initial tendency to say "No".
> 
> If they don't see themselves as being worthy of desiring them, then any desire a man displays will be seen as feigning desire for her when it's really all about "using the most convenient hole to get off".
> 
> Ideally, a man who they are attracted to would always desire them (and make this clear), while they would be free to enjoy being the object of desire yet leave the man's desire unfulfilled if they weren't in the mood at the time.
> 
> It would be nice for them if men were okay with this, but we're not (for the most part).
> 
> My compact with my wife is that I will express and display desire for her as long as she welcomes that desire the great majority of the time.


Thanks for the post. Luckily the no is quite rare with us.


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## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> According to many experts, 75% of men have Spontaneous Desire (they have desire without being aroused first).
> 
> 
> 
> 75% of women have Responsive Desire (the need to be aroused to have desire).
> 
> 
> 
> If this is the case, then most men with spontaneous desire aren't going to be able to pair up with a spontaneous desire woman.
> 
> 
> 
> Expecting a woman with responsive desire to behave like a man with spontaneous desire is asking for disappointment.
> 
> 
> 
> It is very important for a woman with responsive desire to learn to say "well, let's give it a try" rather than "No, I'm not in the mood" if she expects to be in a happy sexual relationship with a spontaneous desire man.
> 
> 
> 
> However, the bolded is also very important. There were things that I wanted that I assumed my wife knew about that it turned out she was happy to do if she had only known.




How does one apply for the job to test which part of the female population is spontaneous and which responsive desire I wonder...Sounds like amazing job opportunity. I would even be ok to work as an intern, for maximum productivity 

There must be some overlaps too: my wife is sometimes spontaneous, sometimes responsive and sometimes no desire and sometimes a combination of everything and nothing at all. How did they come up with this anyway? Do women classify themselves or do their husbands classify their wives or something else? Sounds like a very dubious statistic...(though I would say the numbers do make sense to me given what I encountered here on TAM).

Of course it would be amazing to get a lap dance every day after dinner then amazing sex with all sexual wishes and locations fulfilled but somehow it’s sometimes also nice to have a bit of ‘resistance’ in life. Otherwise it’s too easy. We are all supposed to strive for better things to improve that’s just how nature set everything up.
It’s only when the balance is completely out of whack and people are miserable then something needs to be changed.



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## 482

inmyprime said:


> How does one apply for the job to test which part of the female population is spontaneous and which responsive desire I wonder...Sounds like amazing job opportunity. I would even be ok to work as an intern, for maximum productivity


Im also free just about ever weekend to intern :laugh:

Seriously though regardless of the type of desire someone has its not all in the actual sex. For instance I can show my SO desire just with a text from across the room at a party that says "I love that dress on you, you look amazing, I wish I could get you all alone right now" She could reciprocate that same desire back with something as simple as "Later on you will" This is more like what my SO describes responding to my desire for her. The reverse would be her starting that conversation. I guess what your trying to say @Buddy400 is 75% of women do not do that? Little stuff like this is where she had no idea how easy it was to show me her desire for me. Now that we have had the conversation all I can do now is see if things change. In other words does she care enough to take these things seriously? Not just the desire but all of it. For the most part I know her needs. I take them very serious. I expect no less in return to make sure our relationship remains, for the most part, good.


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## Holdingontoit

I think if you want her to initiate the texting, you will likely be disappointed. If you are OK with texting first and then having her respond favorably, you have a better chance of success.

Not saying you are required to be satisfied if she is only ever responsive and never initiates. Just saying that you have better odds of success if you aim at raising the percentage of the time that she responds favorably as compared to trying to raise the percentage of time she initiates.


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## 269370

482 said:


> Im also free just about ever weekend to intern :laugh:
> 
> Seriously though regardless of the type of desire someone has its not all in the actual sex. For instance I can show my SO desire just with a text from across the room at a party that says "I love that dress on you, you look amazing, I wish I could get you all alone right now" She could reciprocate that same desire back with something as simple as "Later on you will" This is more like what my SO describes responding to my desire for her. The reverse would be her starting that conversation. I guess what your trying to say @Buddy400 is 75% of women do not do that? Little stuff like this is where she had no idea how easy it was to show me her desire for me. Now that we have had the conversation all I can do now is see if things change. In other words does she care enough to take these things seriously? Not just the desire but all of it. For the most part I know her needs. I take them very serious. I expect no less in return to make sure our relationship remains, for the most part, good.



Well if she started that text conversation with you, it would not be very ‘lady-like’. I’m afraid there may also be some stigmas attaches to do with upbringing (for good reasons, I suppose. I feel a little fainty thinking that my daughter one day might initiate those kinds of conversations on her own...., ). You are lucky at least you get a reply...There were times my wife would have replied ‘what do you care what dress I’m wearing, you’ll rip it off later anyway’. Or ignore it altogether.

Regarding your wife’s needs: do you really know them all? Playing devil’s advocate, I don’t think we can ever know them all, let alone come close to fulfilling them all (I’m not talking about sexual needs).



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## 482

inmyprime said:


> Well if she started that text conversation with you, it would not be very ‘lady-like’. I’m afraid there may also be some stigmas attaches to do with upbringing (for good reasons, I suppose. I feel a little fainty thinking that my daughter one day might initiate those kinds of conversations on her own...., ). You are lucky at least you get a reply...There were times my wife would have replied ‘what do you care what dress I’m wearing, you’ll rip it off later anyway’. Or ignore it altogether.
> 
> Regarding your wife’s needs: do you really know them all? Playing devil’s advocate, I don’t think we can ever know them all, let alone come close to fulfilling them all (I’m not talking about sexual needs).


I do not know what all her needs are. I am learning new things day by day. I do know the core needs she has told me about. She has a copy of His needs Her needs now and that will help us both learn more some day soon when she is finished with it. I will be honest she is a strong proud woman and I love that about her. That being said it does make it hard to get information from her. Do you really think the lady like thing comes into play in a long term relationship? If it was a new relationship I could understand. But what about when it is only conversations between you and your SO and she has been with your for a long time so is comfortable being a little less lady like. 

If she said "what do you care what dress I’m wearing, you’ll rip it off later anyway" I would probably say "actually I'm going to work over your body real good with it on" because I would take that reply from her as desire and conformation that I am a pig or an animal which I am. That stinks on the ignoring. If my SO ignored me I would not be OK with that at all. That would initiate quick action on my part. This has already happened in that past when our relationship was ****. To me its a total lack of respect to ignore someone. Its like resorting to name calling to try and hurt someone. Total disrespect. I'm huge on respect in my family.


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## 482

Holdingontoit said:


> I think if you want her to initiate the texting, you will likely be disappointed. If you are OK with texting first and then having her respond favorably, you have a better chance of success.
> 
> Not saying you are required to be satisfied if she is only ever responsive and never initiates. Just saying that you have better odds of success if you aim at raising the percentage of the time that she responds favorably as compared to trying to raise the percentage of time she initiates.


Thanks, she typically responds favorably and our sex life is pretty damn good compared to some things I read. 

Based on another comment on this post I read the opening to your only post on this site. All I can say is wow! At the time of writing that you were really down and out. I know that was years ago. I also know your posts on this thread seem to be well thought out advise. Is this because you have made major changes in your life (both personal and relationships) since that original post in 2015? 

The reason I ask is because my own original post on this site was basically typed by another man (some may have and did call him a boy) due to the changes I have made since then.


----------



## Buddy400

inmyprime said:


> How did they come up with this anyway? Do women classify themselves or do their husbands classify their wives or something else? Sounds like a very dubious statistic...(though I would say the numbers do make sense to me given what I encountered here on TAM).


Here's a link to a previous TAM Thread

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/392737-responsive-desire-women.html

In order for me to give much weight to a study (or studies), they have to seem to relate to real life experiences. 

This passes my "smell test". Doesn't mean it's true, but I think it's credible.


----------



## Buddy400

alexm said:


> As I said, it seems to irk her when she says "no" and I'm totally okay with it. Funny how that works.


This is tricky.

If she says "No", of course you're disappointed. I don't know how anyone could ask for something; be told "No" and not be disappointed. If you didn't care if you got what you asked for, why'd you ask?

I've always had problems being vulnerable, so I'd act like I was ok with it and, most likely just stop asking if I often heard "No" ("not now, how about tomorrow" would be fine). 

But that just sends the relationship into a death spiral.

My wife and I had been hinting pretty openly that sex was going to happen one night. I got home from work and she was sick. Obviously, I knew that the previous plans were of the table and, of course, I wasn't upset. 

She asked if I was disappointed. It took me a moment to respond with "of course, would you prefer it if I was indifferent?". I explained that, while I was disappointed, I completely understood and wouldn't have wanted her to force herself when she was feeling so bad. 

If I didn't let her know when I was disappointed, how would she know what was important to me?


----------



## Buddy400

482 said:


> Im also free just about ever weekend to intern :laugh:
> 
> Seriously though regardless of the type of desire someone has its not all in the actual sex. For instance I can show my SO desire just with a text from across the room at a party that says "I love that dress on you, you look amazing, I wish I could get you all alone right now" She could reciprocate that same desire back with something as simple as "Later on you will" This is more like what my SO describes responding to my desire for her. The reverse would be her starting that conversation. I guess what your trying to say @Buddy400 is 75% of women do not do that? Little stuff like this is where she had no idea how easy it was to show me her desire for me. Now that we have had the conversation all I can do now is see if things change. In other words does she care enough to take these things seriously? Not just the desire but all of it. For the most part I know her needs. I take them very serious. I expect no less in return to make sure our relationship remains, for the most part, good.


An SO who cares about your happiness will (should) make an effort to do things to please their partner even if it's not "natural" for them to do this.

However, since it's not something that they normally think about, you shouldn't expect them to figure it out on their own (they're not going to pick up subtle hints).

If your SO doesn't do something that would make you very happy then:

A) You're asking for something that would cause them more pain to give than the happiness you would receive.

B) They aren't aware of how important it is to you

C) They don't really care all that much about your happiness.

I try very hard to not ask for anything that might be A.

I assume that it's B until there's no choice but to realize it's C.


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## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> Here's a link to a previous TAM Thread
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/392737-responsive-desire-women.html
> 
> In order for me to give much weight to a study (or studies), they have to seem to relate to real life experiences.
> 
> This passes my "smell test". Doesn't mean it's true, but I think it's credible.


Forgot about that thread, it was a good one, shame it ended rather abruptly.


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## 269370

alexm said:


> A word of warning - you have to mean it when you tell yourself it doesn't bother you. It can quickly go too far in the wrong direction, to the point where it appears you don't care at all.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife is generally pretty aloof about things, drama-free. A real "it is what it is" kind of woman, and not in a negative, defeatist kind of way. I love that about her.
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes to sex, my wife cares far less about it then I do. So matching her feelings and attitudes towards it and not making it such a big deal has, ironically, caused her to think about it. As I said, it seems to irk her when she says "no" and I'm totally okay with it. Funny how that works.
> 
> 
> 
> It's that ever-present conundrum of "I say I don't want this, but when it's no longer there, I realize that I actually need it".




I’m not sure I buy the ‘totally ok with it’ part.
Most of the posts and threads are basically about why she is not spontaneous desire or how to be ok with the fact that she’s not. Perhaps she can see right through you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> An SO who cares about your happiness will (should) make an effort to do things to please their partner even if it's not "natural" for them to do this.
> 
> However, since it's not something that they normally think about, you shouldn't expect them to figure it out on their own (they're not going to pick up subtle hints).
> 
> If your SO doesn't do something that would make you very happy then:
> 
> A) You're asking for something that would cause them more pain to give than the happiness you would receive.
> 
> B) They aren't aware of how important it is to you
> 
> C) They don't really care all that much about your happiness.
> 
> I try very hard to not ask for anything that might be A.
> 
> I assume that it's B until there's no choice but to realize it's C.


There must be more letters in the partner's alphabet?

What about D: they know it's important to you but feel something along the lines of 'why the hell should I do this for him if he is never bothered to do XYZ?'

Or E: they are aware it is important to you, but don't really know how to do it properly and feel they might fail at it since it won't be 'natural' for them.

There must be many more...Not sure here is really a formula which is that straightforward...


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## Buddy400

inmyprime said:


> There must be more letters in the partner's alphabet?
> 
> What about D: they know it's important to you but feel something along the lines of 'why the hell should I do this for him if he is never bothered to do XYZ?'
> 
> Or E: they are aware it is important to you, but don't really know how to do it properly and feel they might fail at it since it won't be 'natural' for them.
> 
> There must be many more...Not sure here is really a formula which is that straightforward...


I'm sure there are more options but I think they might be subcategories.

D would have been handled if I'd remembered to include my usual codicil "Assuming a happy marriage with no major problems".

E really isn't really a good enough reason in my book. I might classify it as C since they wouldn't care enough about your happiness to make the effort to deal with their insecurities.


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## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> I'm sure there are more options but I think they might be subcategories.
> 
> D would have been handled if I'd remembered to include my usual codicil "Assuming a happy marriage with no major problems".


But one can't really assume that since real life is outside those assumptions. Also you don't need major problems for this to be true. Minor ones would do the trick. And every marriage has some sorts of problems. Some minor, some more major and they often overlap, intensify or subside.



Buddy400 said:


> E really isn't really a good enough reason in my book. I might classify it as C since they wouldn't care enough about your happiness to make the effort to deal with their insecurities.


I am not sure. That's the conclusion you'd apply but it may not be the correct conclusion for the partner. They may really think that they are not good enough to do XYZ, therefore why should set yourself up for failure and cause more harm than good? 
That's another thing: there's also the interaction between these letters. For you, a situation might be B and for her A (or vice versa), that alone can create an F, G, K, L, M, N, O, P situation.
Because none of these instances can be objectively classified.


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## JoleenaL

anonmd said:


> Buy him a copy of the book 'She comes first', DEMAND that he read it. Have a conversation after each chapter, offer your vajayjay for experimentation purposes>
> 
> If he refuses, implement your plan...


I like the way you think>>>>


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## poida

I think the whole conversation has moved away from the main issue.

Your main issue is connection and communication.

Arguments and lack of intimacy and lack of emotional sex are caused by the lack of connection and also personal insecurities.

Your wife sounds a lot like my ex. It was only through the process of her cheating, MC and D that I found out just how much her personal insecurities can affect a person's abilities to communicate and maintain a close connection with your partner.

My wife had deep insecurities as a child (lack of father figure) which stayed with her. This caused her to push herself to be staunchly defensive and hide these insecurities with her life. She would put up walls and outwardly would appear to be strong, confident and independent. She would go out of her way to appear selfless and help people and do things for people. Internally this couldn't be further from the truth. Insecure people can't take criticism, can't deal with any problems out in the open and definitely can't accept blame. They will go on the attack when challenged in an attempt to avoid confrontation. Anything they DO for people is really only a "contract" for approval.

It takes a strong, well sorted man to be able to handle a woman like this. It also takes change from such a woman to grow up, act like an adult, learn to deal with her insecurities and learn how to communicate without going on the defensive.

At the same time, I was also immature and would often pout like a little boy. I would also seek approval under contract. It sounds like you are less so like this. 

My advice is forget about the sex and intimacy issues for now and focus on both of your personal growth. i also think you should propose MC to discuss these things but don't expect too much. If she is insecure as I believe, MC will be tough for your wife.


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## 482

Wow so I just reread this whole post from last year. A lot has changed also not a lot has changed.

I still get disappointed when she rejects my advances 
She still gets upset by my disappointment 
We still have a decent sex life and the "no" does not come that often
We still struggle being able to communicate effectively about sensitive issues of any kind due to prolonged arguments
She is still quick to anger, argue and deliver blame rather than productive conversation 
I can still be an *******, judgemental, and insecure 

I am trying now to just react less when she wants arguments to start. I try and keep us to the point. I try and not take part in the argument. I just no longer have the desire to fight, argue, or respond to any type of cold and nasty behavior and I continue to tell her this in a calm and concerned way. When it comes I try to just respond calmly and with insight rather than emotion. This is a constant work in progress. I am human. I am not perfect


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## Mr. Nail

When women say that men need to grow up and learn to accept rejection, it means that they have no intention of growing up and accepting disappointment.


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## personofinterest

Mr. Nail said:


> When women say that men need to grow up and learn to accept rejection, it means that they have no intention of growing up and accepting disappointment.


It also means they are selfish little bitties whose husbands I pity.


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## 269370

personofinterest said:


> It also means they are selfish little bitties whose husbands I pity.



Spoken like a true poet!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 482

Mr. Nail said:


> When women say that men need to grow up and learn to accept rejection, it means that they have no intention of growing up and accepting disappointment.


It's hard to determine if its pouty or disappointment. To me it seems totally reasonable and acceptable to be disappointed when you partner shoots you down. If she has trouble seeing and dealing with that disappointment and reacts in anger thats her choice. I also know being pouty is unattractive, something little boys do, and not men. How do you differentiate between the two?


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## *Deidre*

Your wife sounds like an emotional abuser, to be honest. Women can be abusive, just in different ways. You're not perfect, but she sounds like she has caused you to just become numb to it all, to just keep peace in the marriage. Idk why some of you tolerate so much bad behavior from your spouses, and convince yourself that this is what marriage should look like. Good luck to you.


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## Mr. Nail

482 said:


> It's hard to determine if its pouty or disappointment. To me it seems totally reasonable and acceptable to be disappointed when you partner shoots you down. If she has trouble seeing and dealing with that disappointment and reacts in anger thats her choice. I also know being pouty is unattractive, something little boys do, and not men. How do you differentiate between the two?


good question and you also asked how to react without showing n unattractive side. Disappointment is a single reaction to a single event. Pouting is a long term reaction to a single event. When this gets tricky is when you have a series of events. If you are disappointed every night it can appear that you are pouting, but in fact it is a series of disappointments. 

Example (without the emotional loading of sex): I go to Burger King at 10AM And can't get a Whopper because the Broiler is broken.
Disappointment: I say ok and have a breakfast sandwich. Try again another day.
Pouty: I get upset and don't return to Burger king for several months. I tell all of my friends what a lousy place Burger king is.
Series of disappointments: I keep going back day after day and every day the broiler is broken. 

A lot of the difference has to do with the amount of time you carry the bad feeling. The trouble is that the long term pouting would be less difficult for your partner to handle than the series of disappointments. The series of disappointments is often a regular repeated sharp stab. (kind of like the regular sting of the rejection) Whereas the pout is a low grade constant ache (like blue balls). This is likely why High Drive partners stop initiating. To break the cycle of pain.

in reference to deidre 's comment. Yes indeed, getting angry every time things don't go your way is abusive. Women's groups recommend that when men feel rejected they quickly move on and don't carry the pain. This difficult advice is actually pretty healthy. Rejection > Well that's too bad > I'll just do something else. 

It really hasn't worked out that well for me. After a long time with frequent rejections my spouse told me I was putting too much pressure on her. I stopped at one request and went to other activities (computer games). Now her line is you are always ignoring me. So without my pressuring attention she now fills her time with constant reading (huge quantity). I have to be very creative to make an initiation. More barriers to get around. 

What you can take from my experience. Pouting can be pressuring and heighten the stress that kills sex. Have interesting hobbies, but be ready to put them down if you get a glimmer of a green light. But feel free to pick them right back up if the light changes to red or yellow.
MN


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## Buddy400

Mr. Nail said:


> good question and you also asked how to react without showing n unattractive side. Disappointment is a single reaction to a single event. Pouting is a long term reaction to a single event. When this gets tricky is when you have a series of events. If you are disappointed every night it can appear that you are pouting, but in fact it is a series of disappointments.
> 
> Example (without the emotional loading of sex): I go to Burger King at 10AM And can't get a Whopper because the Broiler is broken.
> Disappointment: I say ok and have a breakfast sandwich. Try again another day.
> Pouty: I get upset and don't return to Burger king for several months. I tell all of my friends what a lousy place Burger king is.
> Series of disappointments: I keep going back day after day and every day the broiler is broken.
> 
> A lot of the difference has to do with the amount of time you carry the bad feeling. The trouble is that the long term pouting would be less difficult for your partner to handle than the series of disappointments. The series of disappointments is often a regular repeated sharp stab. (kind of like the regular sting of the rejection) Whereas the pout is a low grade constant ache (like blue balls). This is likely why High Drive partners stop initiating. To break the cycle of pain.
> 
> in reference to deidre 's comment. Yes indeed, getting angry every time things don't go your way is abusive. Women's groups recommend that when men feel rejected they quickly move on and don't carry the pain. This difficult advice is actually pretty healthy. Rejection > Well that's too bad > I'll just do something else.
> 
> It really hasn't worked out that well for me. After a long time with frequent rejections my spouse told me I was putting too much pressure on her. I stopped at one request and went to other activities (computer games). Now her line is you are always ignoring me. So without my pressuring attention she now fills her time with constant reading (huge quantity). I have to be very creative to make an initiation. More barriers to get around.
> 
> What you can take from my experience. Pouting can be pressuring and heighten the stress that kills sex. Have interesting hobbies, but be ready to put them down if you get a glimmer of a green light. But feel free to pick them right back up if the light changes to red or yellow.
> MN


So, you ask your spouse to take out the garbage and it doesn't happen. This happens repeatedly.

Sure, "move quickly on and don't carry the pain" helps one deal with the disappointment better in the short-term.

But, eventually, the garbage does need to be taken out, right?


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Mr. Nail said:


> good question and you also asked how to react without showing n unattractive side. Disappointment is a single reaction to a single event. Pouting is a long term reaction to a single event. When this gets tricky is when you have a series of events. If you are disappointed every night it can appear that you are pouting, but in fact it is a series of disappointments.
> 
> Example (without the emotional loading of sex): I go to Burger King at 10AM And can't get a Whopper because the Broiler is broken.
> Disappointment: I say ok and have a breakfast sandwich. Try again another day.
> Pouty: I get upset and don't return to Burger king for several months. I tell all of my friends what a lousy place Burger king is.
> Series of disappointments: I keep going back day after day and every day the broiler is broken.
> 
> A lot of the difference has to do with the amount of time you carry the bad feeling. The trouble is that the long term pouting would be less difficult for your partner to handle than the series of disappointments. The series of disappointments is often a regular repeated sharp stab. (kind of like the regular sting of the rejection) Whereas the pout is a low grade constant ache (like blue balls). This is likely why High Drive partners stop initiating. To break the cycle of pain.
> 
> in reference to deidre 's comment. Yes indeed, getting angry every time things don't go your way is abusive. Women's groups recommend that when men feel rejected they quickly move on and don't carry the pain. This difficult advice is actually pretty healthy. Rejection > Well that's too bad > I'll just do something else.
> 
> It really hasn't worked out that well for me. After a long time with frequent rejections my spouse told me I was putting too much pressure on her. I stopped at one request and went to other activities (computer games). *Now her line is you are always ignoring me.* So without my pressuring attention she now fills her time with constant reading (huge quantity). I have to be very creative to make an initiation. More barriers to get around.
> 
> What you can take from my experience. Pouting can be pressuring and heighten the stress that kills sex. Have interesting hobbies, but be ready to put them down if you get a glimmer of a green light. But feel free to pick them right back up if the light changes to red or yellow.
> MN


it seems as though she would have to initiate some sort of interaction to then feel ignored unless she means that she is missing you no longer initiating. Have you ever asked, "When I initiate, I am wanting to spend intimate time with you to feel desired, bonding and enjoying each other. I understand that makes you feel pressured and pull away. How can I convey those feelings to you in a way that doesn't make you feel pressured?"?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

It can be like a favorite boat or auto in storage that stays in the shop too many times, but you have to keep paying storage and repair costs without being able to drive it as desired.

Eventually one will want a different boat or auto, or sell them all to get out of the constant payment without any of the pleasures.

I'm not comparing W to material items, just the constant pain of outpouring emotional dollars without getting whole benefits package.


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## Mr. Nail

Buddy400 said:


> So, you ask your spouse to take out the garbage and it doesn't happen. This happens repeatedly.
> 
> Sure, "move quickly on and don't carry the pain" helps one deal with the disappointment better in the short-term.
> 
> But, eventually, the garbage does need to be taken out, right?


Fortunately Balls are self draining. 
You are right Buddy, accepting rejection is not a long term solution. I've repeatedly said that accepting rejection leads to expecting rejection. But Moving quickly on is recommended because it is attractive. If it doesn't save your relationship, at least it makes you more attractive for the next. Besides pouting doesn't get the garbage out either.


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## Mr. Nail

PigglyWiggly said:


> it seems as though she would have to initiate some sort of interaction to then feel ignored unless she means that she is missing you no longer initiating. Have you ever asked, "When I initiate, I am wanting to spend intimate time with you to feel desired, bonding and enjoying each other. I understand that makes you feel pressured and pull away. How can I convey those feelings to you in a way that doesn't make you feel pressured?"?


Without going into a thread jack, the problem with conveying those feelings in another way is that she is conditioned to believe that men only care about sex. I haven't found a way to fix that.


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## 269370

Mr. Nail said:


> the problem with conveying those feelings in another way is that she is conditioned to believe that men only care about sex. I haven't found a way to fix that.



Doggie style usually fixes it for me pretty quick  



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PigglyWiggly

Mr. Nail said:


> Without going into a thread jack, the problem with conveying those feelings in another way is that she is conditioned to believe that men only care about sex. I haven't found a way to fix that.


Then you need to explain to her that it means much more to you than an orgasm and what exactly it does mean to you.. Now, you find out what sex is to her. Does she want to have a fulfilling sex life with you? If so, what does that look like? You two are fighting each other from across the fence instead of fighting together towards a common goal...a sex life that you are both happy with. If she doesn't want that....let's call it quits and move on. If she does want that, let's talk about what that looks like to each of us and how we can get there. You are going to have to ask blunt questions and be prepared to hear the answer.


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## 482

Mr. Nail said:


> good question and you also asked how to react without showing n unattractive side. Disappointment is a single reaction to a single event. Pouting is a long term reaction to a single event. When this gets tricky is when you have a series of events. If you are disappointed every night it can appear that you are pouting, but in fact it is a series of disappointments.
> 
> Example (without the emotional loading of sex): I go to Burger King at 10AM And can't get a Whopper because the Broiler is broken.
> Disappointment: I say ok and have a breakfast sandwich. Try again another day.
> Pouty: I get upset and don't return to Burger king for several months. I tell all of my friends what a lousy place Burger king is.
> Series of disappointments: I keep going back day after day and every day the broiler is broken.
> 
> A lot of the difference has to do with the amount of time you carry the bad feeling. The trouble is that the long term pouting would be less difficult for your partner to handle than the series of disappointments. The series of disappointments is often a regular repeated sharp stab. (kind of like the regular sting of the rejection) Whereas the pout is a low grade constant ache (like blue balls). This is likely why High Drive partners stop initiating. To break the cycle of pain.
> 
> in reference to deidre 's comment. Yes indeed, getting angry every time things don't go your way is abusive. Women's groups recommend that when men feel rejected they quickly move on and don't carry the pain. This difficult advice is actually pretty healthy. Rejection > Well that's too bad > I'll just do something else.
> 
> It really hasn't worked out that well for me. After a long time with frequent rejections my spouse told me I was putting too much pressure on her. I stopped at one request and went to other activities (computer games). Now her line is you are always ignoring me. So without my pressuring attention she now fills her time with constant reading (huge quantity). I have to be very creative to make an initiation. More barriers to get around.
> 
> What you can take from my experience. Pouting can be pressuring and heighten the stress that kills sex. Have interesting hobbies, but be ready to put them down if you get a glimmer of a green light. But feel free to pick them right back up if the light changes to red or yellow.
> MN


Thank you


----------



## Ynot

Well I haven't read this whole thread, but I know when I tried to talk to my ex about sex (specifically the lack of it) I was told that it was "stupid" and she "couldn't believe that I was even thinking about this" as well "I don't have time to have sex with you, I am just so busy (planning for GNOs and cruises with her friends)" and "none of my friends like to have sex with their husbands, it is just something they do to keep the peace".
I learned to just keep my mouth shut. At least the rejection didn't hurt as much her reasoning.
Of course since then, I have met many sex positive women, who enjoyably discussing sex.
So my advice is to just be honest and open. Either they can accept it or reject it, but either way you know what the answer is.


----------



## ChargingCharlie

Ynot said:


> Well I haven't read this whole thread, but I know when I tried to talk to my ex about sex (specifically the lack of it) I was told that it was "stupid" and she "couldn't believe that I was even thinking about this" as well "I don't have time to have sex with you, I am just so busy (planning for GNOs and cruises with her friends)" and "none of my friends like to have sex with their husbands, it is just something they do to keep the peace".
> I learned to just keep my mouth shut. At least the rejection didn't hurt as much her reasoning.
> Of course since then, I have met many sex positive women, who enjoyably discussing sex.
> So my advice is to just be honest and open. Either they can accept it or reject it, but either way you know what the answer is.


I don't even bother talking to mine about sex. She always makes sure to preempt any hints of sex by letting me know how tired she is and/or how bad her headache is. She'd also say the same thing about how her friends never have sex with their husbands (I remember one of her friends saying that she could go the rest of her life without sex, and I caught my wife nodding her head in agreement). 

We were kid-free a few weekends ago and never came close to sex - she made sure to let me know that she was really tired (we were out all day Saturday and got home around 9:00).


----------



## Ynot

ChargingCharlie said:


> I don't even bother talking to mine about sex. She always makes sure to preempt any hints of sex by letting me know how tired she is and/or how bad her headache is. She'd also say the same thing about how her friends never have sex with their husbands (I remember one of her friends saying that she could go the rest of her life without sex, and I caught my wife nodding her head in agreement).
> 
> We were kid-free a few weekends ago and never came close to sex - she made sure to let me know that she was really tired (we were out all day Saturday and got home around 9:00).


Damn dude! That was my life for too long. My ex used to also pre-empt sex with a litany of things that I also knew meant no sex tonight. Thank goodness I don't deal with that stuff anymore. Since I have gotten divorced my sex life has improved. Sometimes, between partners, it may get a little scarce, but no more so that what I went thru before. OTOH every new partner entails several weeks of activity often times with several multiple times a day mixed in. All in all, I figure I have sex more often now than I ever did then. Usually more adventuresome and enjoyable as well.
I think in the entire time (24 years ) I was married, we had vacation sex once!


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## happiness27

482 said:


> We were driving home the other night from a night out with some friends I suggest we go to the beach and have sex (late at night in the truck). She says no. I was a bit disappointed and not real happy. I was not fighting about it or even discussing it because I was not sure why I was so bothered by it. I just went to bed. I admit I could have just pushed through this and delivered on a good rest of the night but something was off from that point on.
> 
> The next day she demands an apology from me for treating her so bad and making her feel like she is not good enough. I still do not much understand where all that came from. Like I said I just went to bed. I even held her close in bed before she decided to roll over and go to sleep. The next day I did apologize to her for making her upset the night before because clearly I hurt her feelings somehow. She apologized for the name calling. This did not change the dynamic of the conversation. It almost seemed to make no difference at all.
> 
> I spent most of that first night awake thinking about why this is bothering me so much. I identified why it was bothering me. I have tried to discuss this with her 3 times now. Every time I do I never get to actually discuss the real issues with her (still have not been able to) because she seems very uncomfortable talking about it. She almost immediately starts raising her voice, talking over me and sending direct invites to fight with her. Every time she does this I don't much want to talk to her. It feels like I'm talking to someone who does not much care about discussing this. Feels like I am talking to someone who is completely put off by this whole conversation. Its an inconvenience to her to discuss this. I feel like I have to turn into a lawyer, it just sucks from a communication standpoint. I feel like anytime a topic is sensitive to her the conversation falls apart and drags on for days and days. The problem is as soon as she gets like this I stop listening. I just don't have much interest in fighting. I want to have a discussion like an adult without all the escalation.
> 
> I would love to discuss this stuff with her and genuinely feel like the person I am talking to wants to discuss it just as much as I do.
> 
> Is your SO very uncomfortable discussing their sex life with you? Does she take any suggestions or discussions as a personal attack?


I haven't seen the OP in awhile so I don't know if he is still here. 

Just a 2 cents observation:

1.) Sex on a beach would be a non-starter for me. I don't want to get sand in my twat. Blanket or no blanket, that's a risk I won't take. The other thing is that it's in public, presumably...so, not comfortable with that. And then there's the risk of being distracted and semi naked or naked and getting accosted by criminals of some sort. In other words, it doesn't sound safe. So, I would turn that down also.

2.) As to the reaction of your SO...I hope this isn't too far off to relate to but I have a sister who behaves like that. I am more like you - very forthright. But this sister is completely, utterly non-confrontational about any topic she doesn't want to delve into. Her style is to throw sniper shots at me and then retreat into victim mode if I ask "What's up? What's going on with you that we need to talk about?"

I don't know the answer for you because, frankly, the only information is what you wrote about so I may be really off base - but the dynamic of a strong, upfront person with a sniper/retreat personality is a very tough dynamic. I think her style is sort of a "rage and run" to protect herself from conversations that are too uncomfortable for her. Paired with a person who is unafraid to talk about anything, it's going to be a really hard match. 

I am estranged from this sister because our styles of communicating are so completely different. Making any kind of contact with her is always a mine field. I never know what she is going to take offense to and she refuses to elaborate in any kind of effort to have a relationship. 

With that experience, if for some reason I encounter a personal love relationship like that, I'd get out. I work better with a relationship that is very open and honest and blunt. 

"Let's have sex on the beach"

"Sounds romantic but, sorry, I don't want to get sand in my twat or have sex in public or get accosted naked by some weirdo or have the cops find us..."

"Crap. Yeah, that doesn't sound so great when you put it that way."

"But...I have another idea..."

"Yeah, what?" 

...conversation leads to something else also fun.

Would that have worked for you?

If so, you might have a choice to make. You could get into counseling with your present SO - or you could find a different SO with a better dynamic matchup for you.


----------



## red oak

@482
Making a suggestion to my wife would piss her off. 

She told me once, "Don't ask or suggest. It makes you sound like wimp. A man doesn't ask for permission. He moves!"

She would have taken it as an insult, to her, for me to suggest, which would have been asking permission in her eyes.

To diffuse the repercussions I would have to tell her it was her loss. 

But that's mine. 

Perhaps I missed it: Could you give clarity as to why you wife said you treated her badly? For asking her to go parking? Or felt insulted because you asked?


----------



## 482

ChargingCharlie said:


> I don't even bother talking to mine about sex. She always makes sure to preempt any hints of sex by letting me know how tired she is and/or how bad her headache is. She'd also say the same thing about how her friends never have sex with their husbands (I remember one of her friends saying that she could go the rest of her life without sex, and I caught my wife nodding her head in agreement).
> 
> 
> 
> We were kid-free a few weekends ago and never came close to sex - she made sure to let me know that she was really tired (we were out all day Saturday and got home around 9:00).




That’s tough man, sorry. Not sure I would stick around for that 


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## 482

happiness27 said:


> I haven't seen the OP in awhile so I don't know if he is still here.
> 
> Just a 2 cents observation:
> 
> 1.) Sex on a beach would be a non-starter for me. I don't want to get sand in my twat. Blanket or no blanket, that's a risk I won't take. The other thing is that it's in public, presumably...so, not comfortable with that. And then there's the risk of being distracted and semi naked or naked and getting accosted by criminals of some sort. In other words, it doesn't sound safe. So, I would turn that down also.
> 
> 2.) As to the reaction of your SO...I hope this isn't too far off to relate to but I have a sister who behaves like that. I am more like you - very forthright. But this sister is completely, utterly non-confrontational about any topic she doesn't want to delve into. Her style is to throw sniper shots at me and then retreat into victim mode if I ask "What's up? What's going on with you that we need to talk about?"
> 
> I don't know the answer for you because, frankly, the only information is what you wrote about so I may be really off base - but the dynamic of a strong, upfront person with a sniper/retreat personality is a very tough dynamic. I think her style is sort of a "rage and run" to protect herself from conversations that are too uncomfortable for her. Paired with a person who is unafraid to talk about anything, it's going to be a really hard match.
> 
> I am estranged from this sister because our styles of communicating are so completely different. Making any kind of contact with her is always a mine field. I never know what she is going to take offense to and she refuses to elaborate in any kind of effort to have a relationship.
> 
> With that experience, if for some reason I encounter a personal love relationship like that, I'd get out. I work better with a relationship that is very open and honest and blunt.
> 
> "Let's have sex on the beach"
> 
> "Sounds romantic but, sorry, I don't want to get sand in my twat or have sex in public or get accosted naked by some weirdo or have the cops find us..."
> 
> "Crap. Yeah, that doesn't sound so great when you put it that way."
> 
> "But...I have another idea..."
> 
> "Yeah, what?"
> 
> ...conversation leads to something else also fun.
> 
> Would that have worked for you?
> 
> If so, you might have a choice to make. You could get into counseling with your present SO - or you could find a different SO with a better dynamic matchup for you.




100% on this post. Also the banter would be nice preserving the sexual chemistry rather than flat out saying no. 


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## 482

red oak said:


> @482
> Making a suggestion to my wife would piss her off.
> 
> She told me once, "Don't ask or suggest. It makes you sound like wimp. A man doesn't ask for permission. He moves!"
> 
> She would have taken it as an insult, to her, for me to suggest, which would have been asking permission in her eyes.
> 
> To diffuse the repercussions I would have to tell her it was her loss.
> 
> But that's mine.
> 
> Perhaps I missed it: Could you give clarity as to why you wife said you treated her badly? For asking her to go parking? Or felt insulted because you asked?




Yes she says I treat her badly when I am disappointed by her rejection. I think it’s more like she gets mad seeing me disappointed and would prefer I am never disappointed so she can feel better. Start the blame parade.......


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## personofinterest

"I think it’s more like she gets mad seeing me disappointed and would prefer I am never disappointed so she can feel better"

This makes sense


----------



## uhtred

Yup, this is pretty standard in our home too. 

Ever evening when we get home from work there is a sort if ritual where she tells me how she is tired / feeling-poorly / busy / not-sleeping. All of which are code words for "don't ask for sex". Every night. Needless to say she is never too tired for things she wants to do. 

Clearly it is not that she is tired / etc.. She doesn't want sex - and maybe can't even explain to herself why that is.

Sometimes its funny in a sad way. On one anniversary trip we stayed in a nice place in Venice. Beautiful room - all mirrors and antiques, view of the grand canal. Super romantic. I could almost see the gears turning in her head as she tried to find a way to say that she was too tired / ill / whatever for sex but wanted to go out and walk around the city. 




ChargingCharlie said:


> I don't even bother talking to mine about sex. She always makes sure to preempt any hints of sex by letting me know how tired she is and/or how bad her headache is. She'd also say the same thing about how her friends never have sex with their husbands (I remember one of her friends saying that she could go the rest of her life without sex, and I caught my wife nodding her head in agreement).
> 
> We were kid-free a few weekends ago and never came close to sex - she made sure to let me know that she was really tired (we were out all day Saturday and got home around 9:00).


----------



## 482

uhtred said:


> Yup, this is pretty standard in our home too.
> 
> Ever evening when we get home from work there is a sort if ritual where she tells me how she is tired / feeling-poorly / busy / not-sleeping. All of which are code words for "don't ask for sex". Every night. Needless to say she is never too tired for things she wants to do.
> 
> Clearly it is not that she is tired / etc.. She doesn't want sex - and maybe can't even explain to herself why that is.
> 
> Sometimes its funny in a sad way. On one anniversary trip we stayed in a nice place in Venice. Beautiful room - all mirrors and antiques, view of the grand canal. Super romantic. I could almost see the gears turning in her head as she tried to find a way to say that she was too tired / ill / whatever for sex but wanted to go out and walk around the city.


Sorry man that stinks. Hope things get better for you.


----------



## BigDigg

uhtred said:


> Ever evening when we get home from work there is a sort if ritual where she tells me how she is tired / feeling-poorly / busy / not-sleeping. All of which are code words for "don't ask for sex". Every night. Needless to say she is never too tired for things she wants to do.


Ugh...this is so sad for everyone involved. Tragic for the men here who have conditioned themselves to expect no better in life or who's wives have trampled their self-esteem. But also tragic for some of their wives too even if they've brought it on themselves. Can't imagine being with someone I was so turned off by that I'd have to make daily proactive statements and drama as a form of self-preservation. 

This is no way to live for anyone. Marriage at-all-costs mentality is a terrible thing for everyone involved.


----------



## Ynot

BigDigg said:


> Ugh...this is so sad for everyone involved. Tragic for the men here who have conditioned themselves to expect no better in life or who's wives have trampled their self-esteem. But also tragic for some of their wives too even if they've brought it on themselves. Can't imagine being with someone I was so turned off by that I'd have to make daily proactive statements and drama as a form of self-preservation.
> 
> This is no way to live for anyone. Marriage at-all-costs mentality is a terrible thing for everyone involved.


Yep I had bought into that "marriage at all cost" mentality. Eventually I got to the point of thinking there must be something wrong with me that I even had sexual urges. When we did have sex, I usually felt guilty afterwards. I am still not completely over it. Even now, when a woman is coming to my place specifically for sex, I still get pangs of guilt. I have to remind myself that she is coming over because that is what she wants as well and she knows full well what is going to happen. And if she is just trying to use sex as bait to "catch" me, then that is on her because I am always open and honest about my intentions.


----------



## personofinterest

I think I have shared before that neither of my grown children have any desire to ever marry. I KNOW it is because of what ex and I modeled. And that makes me sad. And I still wonder.....would they not be so jaded if I had left when I first KNEW things would never change ( but I stayed because they were only 7 AND 9).


----------



## 482

personofinterest said:


> I think I have shared before that neither of my grown children have any desire to ever marry. I KNOW it is because of what ex and I modeled. And that makes me sad. And I still wonder.....would they not be so jaded if I had left when I first KNEW things would never change ( but I stayed because they were only 7 AND 9).




It’s tough to say but if I could offer any advise I would say try not to live in the past. It’s never to late to show them a great example of a positive relationship.


----------



## Buddy400

uhtred said:


> Yup, this is pretty standard in our home too.
> 
> Ever evening when we get home from work there is a sort if ritual where she tells me how she is tired / feeling-poorly / busy / not-sleeping. All of which are code words for "don't ask for sex". Every night. Needless to say she is never too tired for things she wants to do.
> 
> Clearly it is not that she is tired / etc.. She doesn't want sex - and maybe can't even explain to herself why that is.
> 
> Sometimes its funny in a sad way. On one anniversary trip we stayed in a nice place in Venice. Beautiful room - all mirrors and antiques, view of the grand canal. Super romantic. I could almost see the gears turning in her head as she tried to find a way to say that she was too tired / ill / whatever for sex but wanted to go out and walk around the city.


Have you tried responding with "Since I no longer ever have any hope of your wanting to have sex with me, I never anticipate it so, therefore, all your warnings about why you're not likely to be in the mood for sex are unnecessary".


----------



## Mr. Nail

personofinterest said:


> I think I have shared before that neither of my grown children have any desire to ever marry. I KNOW it is because of what ex and I modeled. And that makes me sad. And I still wonder.....would they not be so jaded if I had left when I first KNEW things would never change ( but I stayed because they were only 7 AND 9).


I have 4 children 1 divorced, two perpetually single, and the youngest newlywed. I'm not sure what kind of bad example we were putting out there. The major problems came when the youngest was in high school.


----------



## ChargingCharlie

uhtred said:


> Yup, this is pretty standard in our home too.
> 
> Ever evening when we get home from work there is a sort if ritual where she tells me how she is tired / feeling-poorly / busy / not-sleeping. All of which are code words for "don't ask for sex". Every night. Needless to say she is never too tired for things she wants to do.
> 
> Clearly it is not that she is tired / etc.. She doesn't want sex - and maybe can't even explain to herself why that is.
> 
> Sometimes its funny in a sad way. On one anniversary trip we stayed in a nice place in Venice. Beautiful room - all mirrors and antiques, view of the grand canal. Super romantic. I could almost see the gears turning in her head as she tried to find a way to say that she was too tired / ill / whatever for sex but wanted to go out and walk around the city.


Damn, sounds like we're married to the same woman. Mine does the same thing. Our situation can be complicated as we have little kids and nowhere to dump them off, but this particular weekend they were at a friends house, so we had two nights to ourselves. Another time about a month ago we took the kids to a birthday party less than a mile away for several hours. We went out to eat, and as we're driving home she's letting me know just how tired she is just in case I suggest that we take advantage of that time (we still had a couple of hours until we had to pick them up).

If we do get a sitter and get to go out, she will let me know as we're heading out just how tired she is/how bad her head hurts. Doesn't prevent her from asking me to stop at a store, but God forbid we actually have sex as we'll break the law that's apparently in our area where you're not allowed to have sex more than once a year.


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## Personal

@ChargingCharlie and those of you in similar predicaments, if you really wanted to have sex more often than once a year. You would be having sex a lot more frequently.

While ever you continue to choose your sexless relationship, you will continue to find yourself a volunteer for it.

If you accept something, you are choosing to accept it.

If you don't like the status quo of your own choosing. You would do well to find your testicles and share them with another woman or other women.

While ever anyone chooses to stay in a sexless nominally sexual relationship, they are getting what they want.

If you wanted sex, you would make different choices. Unless or until you make different choices. You would do well to have the dignity to own your choices, and not pretend you aren't choosing to not have sex.


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## Personal

482 said:


> uhtred said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, this is pretty standard in our home too.
> 
> Ever evening when we get home from work there is a sort if ritual where she tells me how she is tired / feeling-poorly / busy / not-sleeping. All of which are code words for "don't ask for sex". Every night. Needless to say she is never too tired for things she wants to do.
> 
> Clearly it is not that she is tired / etc.. She doesn't want sex - and maybe can't even explain to herself why that is.
> 
> Sometimes its funny in a sad way. On one anniversary trip we stayed in a nice place in Venice. Beautiful room - all mirrors and antiques, view of the grand canal. Super romantic. I could almost see the gears turning in her head as she tried to find a way to say that she was too tired / ill / whatever for sex but wanted to go out and walk around the city.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry man that stinks. Hope things get better for you.
Click to expand...

It doesn't stink at all, since he is choosing this.

If he instead wanted more sex, he would make different choices.


----------



## happiness27

Personal said:


> @ChargingCharlie and those of you in similar predicaments, if you really wanted to have sex more often than once a year. You would be having sex a lot more frequently.
> 
> While ever you continue to choose your sexless relationship, you will continue to find yourself a volunteer for it.
> 
> If you accept something, you are choosing to accept it.
> 
> If you don't like the status quo of your own choosing. You would do well to find your testicles and share them with another woman or other women.
> 
> While ever anyone chooses to stay in a sexless nominally sexual relationship, they are getting what they want.
> 
> If you wanted sex, you would make different choices. Unless or until you make different choices. You would do well to have the dignity to own your choices, and not pretend you aren't choosing to not have sex.


This is some tough love talk but its true. Divorce is really hard but a miserable marriage is worse.


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## uhtred

Marriage is a trade off. Sex is an important part but lots of other things matter too. I could be a lot less happy in a marriage with good sex but where there were other problems. 



BigDigg said:


> Ugh...this is so sad for everyone involved. Tragic for the men here who have conditioned themselves to expect no better in life or who's wives have trampled their self-esteem. But also tragic for some of their wives too even if they've brought it on themselves. Can't imagine being with someone I was so turned off by that I'd have to make daily proactive statements and drama as a form of self-preservation.
> 
> This is no way to live for anyone. Marriage at-all-costs mentality is a terrible thing for everyone involved.


----------



## uhtred

Could, but I don't see what there is to gain. I think it is just her way of letting me know not to ask so I won't get rejected. We are both smart people an understand what is going on. 



Buddy400 said:


> Have you tried responding with "Since I no longer ever have any hope of your wanting to have sex with me, I never anticipate it so, therefore, all your warnings about why you're not likely to be in the mood for sex are unnecessary".


----------



## BigDigg

uhtred said:


> Marriage is a trade off. Sex is an important part but lots of other things matter too. I could be a lot less happy in a marriage with good sex but where there were other problems.


Get that and not criticizing your decision. We're all free to make our own and live with the outcomes. And agree that it's definitely not always about sex, though that seems to be the predominant theme here on TAM at least. But you are telling us that your wife comes home everyday feigning tiredness and illness to avoid you. That's a happy marriage for you both?


----------



## uhtred

Sucks. (only probably not actually).

Yup married to the same woman, which might explain why she is so tired all the time :smile2:

My case is slightly different in that sometimes she wants sex. It has to be between 2 and 5 on a sunday afternoon, which is our chore day. Its of course not every sunday, often there is something "more important' to do - (which is to say pretty much anything). We do have some sort of sexual interaction more often than do many people. (though no actual sex anymore). Usually though I get the same warnings sunday. 



ChargingCharlie said:


> Damn, sounds like we're married to the same woman. Mine does the same thing. Our situation can be complicated as we have little kids and nowhere to dump them off, but this particular weekend they were at a friends house, so we had two nights to ourselves. Another time about a month ago we took the kids to a birthday party less than a mile away for several hours. We went out to eat, and as we're driving home she's letting me know just how tired she is just in case I suggest that we take advantage of that time (we still had a couple of hours until we had to pick them up).
> 
> If we do get a sitter and get to go out, she will let me know as we're heading out just how tired she is/how bad her head hurts. Doesn't prevent her from asking me to stop at a store, but God forbid we actually have sex as we'll break the law that's apparently in our area where you're not allowed to have sex more than once a year.


----------



## 482

Read it again, same stuff. It’s horribly inconvenient to want sex with someone all the time and not get the same desire back. I would say if I initiate 10 times, 7 of them would be a yes. Trouble is the fact that there is the no from time to time. I tend to be careful about what and when I ask because of that. It’s a bit unfulfilling sexually to not be able to have open discussions about sex and feel desired by my partner even when she says no. Sometimes the sex is amazing and very fulfilling. Other times out comes the no and the bull**** excuses. When we do have sex certain positions and acts make her very uncomfortable, not physically, I feel like she feels degraded. She says she never pleasures herself. She may be a bit repressed sexually. I am not at all, almost anything goes. Guess I have 2 choices, continue to work on this problem with her and a therapist or move on. I’d hate to have to move on because so much about us is great but I can’t picture living the remainder of my life just like this.


----------



## red oak

My wife has said more than once, a woman who gives excuses needs to get over herself. 

Women enjoy sex just as much as men. The only reason a woman should say no, is a major health issue, in such case loving husband wouldn't want to. Anything else is bull****. 

Headaches are no excuse as sex eases them (science to back it up too). Any woman who always gives excuses shouldn't expect to keep her husband. 


.


----------



## Red Sonja

482 said:


> Read it again, same stuff. It’s horribly inconvenient to want sex with someone all the time and not get the same desire back. I would say if I initiate 10 times, 7 of them would be a yes. Trouble is the fact that there is the no from time to time. I tend to be careful about what and when I ask because of that. It’s a bit unfulfilling sexually to not be able to have open discussions about sex and feel desired by my partner even when she says no. Sometimes the sex is amazing and very fulfilling. Other times out comes the no and the bull**** excuses. *When we do have sex certain positions and acts make her very uncomfortable, not physically, I feel like she feels degraded.* She says she never pleasures herself. She may be a bit repressed sexually. I am not at all, almost anything goes. Guess I have 2 choices, continue to work on this problem with her and a therapist or move on. I’d hate to have to move on because so much about us is great but I can’t picture living the remainder of my life just like this.


Has she actually indicated that she feels "degraded" or are you making an assumption?


----------



## 482

Red Sonja said:


> Has she actually indicated that she feels "degraded" or are you making an assumption?




I have asked her what that is all about and she did indicate is a few words and facial expressions that is how she feels. For example she will go down on me but at first she would only do it in a way where I could never see her. I would be laying down and she would cross my stomach with her body so I could only see her back. I explained to her I like to watch so now I can stand at the edge of the bed to accomplish that. I have asked her several times to be on her knees or go between my legs when I am laying down but for some reason this makes her feel degraded or something. It makes little sense to me because it would be a more comfortable position for her and a more enjoyable one for me.


----------



## 482

red oak said:


> My wife has said more than once, a woman who gives excuses needs to get over herself.
> 
> 
> 
> Women enjoy sex just as much as men. The only reason a woman should say no, is a major health issue, in such case loving husband wouldn't want to. Anything else is bull****.
> 
> 
> 
> Headaches are no excuse as sex eases them (science to back it up too). Any woman who always gives excuses shouldn't expect to keep her husband.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



I agree with you. It makes no sense to me. I wonder if it has to do with the way I am asking or how free I am. Sometimes I take the proper time with foreplay but other times I do not and I am very blunt. For instance I have no problem taking off to a bathroom to have sex. I have no problem making an excuse to some people why we have to take a ride to go have sex. This kind of stuff is actually exciting to me. This is the kind of stuff that she always says no to. This is not the only kinds of things she says no to. Sometimes we are just alone and in a good position to be able to have sex but she just says no thank you not now when I ask if she wants to. Then at a later time she will want to almost because she feels bad for having said no in the first place rather than she actually wanted to. Asking her to explain why she is saying no is almost a complete waste. Either she is not comfortable saying why she is saying no or she has no idea and makes up BS reasons because of that. Things like being tired or some other variable like the kids are here and could come in. None of them are rational or make any sense. If your tired you don’t have the energy for other things. If your concerned about the kids let’s lock the door or take a drive somewhere. In a book I reread recently “the way of the superior man” the author describes how a woman answers based on how she is feeling in the moment. I think the example was about asking a woman if she wants to go to the movies and she says no. Then asking the same question in a different way just minutes later and she says yes. He goes on to explain that the way that she was asked in the second example made her feel good so she agreed. The way that she was asked in the first example made her feel bad so she said no.


----------



## aine

red oak said:


> My wife has said more than once, a woman who gives excuses needs to get over herself.
> 
> Women enjoy sex just as much as men. The only reason a woman should say no, is a major health issue, in such case loving husband wouldn't want to. Anything else is bull****.
> 
> Headaches are no excuse as sex eases them (science to back it up too). Any woman who always gives excuses shouldn't expect to keep her husband.
> 
> 
> .


I think I have to call you out on this, what you have written is not entirely right. 
Mens approach to sex is to reach a goal, women not so much, they prefer the journey. One thing that many women (the ones I talk to) dislike is how the husbands are all interested in getting their rocks off basically and leave the woman unfulfilled. 
There are many selfish/self centred lovers out there and quite frankly many of them are men. TAM men are not a representative sample imo as men who are selfish will rarely seek advice on such a forum, as they don't think they have a problem, unless of course the **** is hitting the fan big time. So your analysis is not accurate, to be more explicit , 'women enjoy sex as much as men when their man is not only all about himself.'


----------



## 482

aine said:


> I think I have to call you out on this, what you have written is not entirely right.
> Mens approach to sex is to reach a goal, women not so much, they prefer the journey. One thing that many women (the ones I talk to) dislike is how the husbands are all interested in getting their rocks off basically and leave the woman unfulfilled.
> There are many selfish/self centred lovers out there and quite frankly many of them are men. TAM men are not a representative sample imo as men who are selfish will rarely seek advice on such a forum, as they don't think they have a problem, unless of course the **** is hitting the fan big time. So your analysis is not accurate, to be more explicit , 'women enjoy sex as much as men when their man is not only all about himself.'


I agree with you. I can assure this is not the case for us. She basically has to tell me to stop or I will continue to touch her in the ways she likes. I take time to make sure her needs are met when we have sex. With that said I can totally relate to what you are saying about it being a journey for her because sometimes she does not want to go all the way, a rare thing for a man to do.


----------



## red oak

aine said:


> I think I have to call you out on this, what you have written is not entirely right.
> Mens approach to sex is to reach a goal, women not so much, they prefer the journey. One thing that many women (the ones I talk to) dislike is how the husbands are all interested in getting their rocks off basically and leave the woman unfulfilled.
> There are many selfish/self centred lovers out there and quite frankly many of them are men. TAM men are not a representative sample imo as men who are selfish will rarely seek advice on such a forum, as they don't think they have a problem, unless of course the **** is hitting the fan big time. So your analysis is not accurate, to be more explicit , 'women enjoy sex as much as men when their man is not only all about himself.'


The entirety is a quote of my wife. Not my analysis. 

"Men's approach is to reach a goal."? :crying: LOL :grin2:
Their are immature machiavellian men like that and I give em a piece of my mind if they talk it around me. But most men are much more mature.


----------



## red oak

482 said:


> I agree with you. It makes no sense to me. I wonder if it has to do with the way I am asking or how free I am. Sometimes I take the proper time with foreplay but other times I do not and I am very blunt. For instance I have no problem taking off to a bathroom to have sex. I have no problem making an excuse to some people why we have to take a ride to go have sex. This kind of stuff is actually exciting to me. This is the kind of stuff that she always says no to. This is not the only kinds of things she says no to. Sometimes we are just alone and in a good position to be able to have sex but she just says no thank you not now when I ask if she wants to. Then at a later time she will want to almost because she feels bad for having said no in the first place rather than she actually wanted to. Asking her to explain why she is saying no is almost a complete waste. Either she is not comfortable saying why she is saying no or she has no idea and makes up BS reasons because of that. Things like being tired or some other variable like the kids are here and could come in. None of them are rational or make any sense. If your tired you don’t have the energy for other things. If your concerned about the kids let’s lock the door or take a drive somewhere. In a book I reread recently “the way of the superior man” the author describes how a woman answers based on how she is feeling in the moment. I think the example was about asking a woman if she wants to go to the movies and she says no. Then asking the same question in a different way just minutes later and she says yes. He goes on to explain that the way that she was asked in the second example made her feel good so she agreed. The way that she was asked in the first example made her feel bad so she said no.


I remember reading some of the book..too close manipulation for me. 
I don't ask my wife for sex. She would lose almost all respect for me if I did. A man doesn't ask his wife, he amps it up through the day.


----------



## Red Sonja

482 said:


> I have asked her what that is all about and she did indicate is a few words and facial expressions that is how she feels. For example she will go down on me but at first she would only do it in a way where I could never see her. I would be laying down and she would cross my stomach with her body so I could only see her back. I explained to her I like to watch so now I can stand at the edge of the bed to accomplish that. I have asked her several times to be on her knees or go between my legs when I am laying down but for some reason this makes her feel degraded or something. It makes little sense to me because it would be a more comfortable position for her and a more enjoyable one for me.


You are making an assumption in your last sentence above. Her feelings about what is or is not comfortable for her are valid and you need to accept them.

It will help your sexual relationship if, when she states a boundary or preference, you accept it instead of "asking her several times" to do something she has stated that she does not want to do.

I believe men call this "nagging" when women do it ... you are nagging her.


----------



## Buddy400

Red Sonja said:


> You are making an assumption in your last sentence above. Her feelings about what is or is not comfortable for her are valid and *you need to accept them.*


If the bolded were followed with "if you want to continue the relationship", I'd agree.

If not, then I disagree.


----------



## 482

Red Sonja said:


> You are making an assumption in your last sentence above. Her feelings about what is or is not comfortable for her are valid and you need to accept them.
> 
> 
> 
> It will help your sexual relationship if, when she states a boundary or preference, you accept it instead of "asking her several times" to do something she has stated that she does not want to do.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe men call this "nagging" when women do it ... you are nagging her.



Maybe I am making assumptions on that.


----------



## Red Sonja

Buddy400 said:


> If the bolded were followed with "if you want to continue the relationship", I'd agree.


Yes, of course ... this entire thread seems to be about sexual compatibility.


----------



## red oak

@482 if this is a serous thread. Men state, women negotiate. When you start asking a woman you are negotiating, and putting yourself into "feminine" energy. Masculine attracts feminine. Opposites attract.

I see wishy washy in your comments here.
Seemingly agreeing with contradictory statements of other posters. If that is the way you are with your wife, you may well be confusing her.

If you want to go out with you wife to watch a movie you don't ask her. You may ask if she had previous plans. If she says no, tell her, "we are going to a movie."
It also means to perhaps ask a few days in advance, there are some new movies coming out about.....what do you think of the themes, plot etc. When you go to the movies take her to the one she was most enthusiastic about, unless it's something you absolutely couldn't stand. Or know her well enough to know which she would like the best. 

In other words, "take charge" which doesn't mean it is always about you. Being in charge comes with the responsibility to care enough about those you are responsible for to make life good for all. To see those you care about smiling and happy is a great joy.

Women: Here me out before beating me.  Sometimes, some women get so wrapped up in emotions they need their man to direct as a director would a play. Pay more attention to how happy she is, instead of what she says

That's how it works. Know your wife. Talk to your wife.


----------



## 482

red oak said:


> @482 if this is a serous thread. Men state, women negotiate. When you start asking a woman you are negotiating, and putting yourself into "feminine" energy. Masculine attracts feminine. Opposites attract.
> 
> I see wishy washy in your comments here.
> Seemingly agreeing with contradictory statements of other posters. If that is the way you are with your wife, you may well be confusing her.
> 
> If you want to go out with you wife to watch a movie you don't ask her. You may ask if she had previous plans. If she says no, tell her, "we are going to a movie."
> It also means to perhaps ask a few days in advance, there are some new movies coming out about.....what do you think of the themes, plot etc. When you go to the movies take her to the one she was most enthusiastic about, unless it's something you absolutely couldn't stand. Or know her well enough to know which she would like the best.
> 
> In other words, "take charge" which doesn't mean it is always about you. Being in charge comes with the responsibility to care enough about those you are responsible for to make life good for all. To see those you care about smiling and happy is a great joy.
> 
> Women: Here me out before beating me.  Sometimes, some women get so wrapped up in emotions they need their man to direct as a director would a play. Pay more attention to how happy she is, instead of what she says
> 
> That's how it works. Know your wife. Talk to your wife.


This is a serious thread. What are the areas you feel I am contradictory? Maybe I can clarify or possibly I may be contradictory due to the nature of the ups and down of this relationship. If the latter is the case I apologize for the confusion. I totally understand the movie scenario you laid out, makes total sense and it is the way I am most of the time. I also understand the accountability you describe. I will not sit here on the other end of this keyboard faceless and pretend I am perfect, I am not, but I am trying very had to be the man you describe.


----------



## red oak

482 said:


> This is a serious thread. What are the areas you feel I am contradictory? Maybe I can clarify or possibly I may be contradictory due to the nature of the ups and down of this relationship. If the latter is the case I apologize for the confusion. I totally understand the movie scenario you laid out, makes total sense and it is the way I am most of the time. I also understand the accountability you describe. I will not sit here on the other end of this keyboard faceless and pretend I am perfect, I am not, but I am trying very had to be the man you describe.


Are you passive/aggressive?


----------



## 482

red oak said:


> Are you passive/aggressive?


I hear it tossed around a lot but I searched to make sure my understating it correct. Here is what I found;

"of or denoting a type of behavior or personality characterized by indirect resistance to the demands of others and an avoidance of direct confrontation, as in procrastinating, pouting, or misplacing important materials."

My answer is no. I may at times do something that could be described as avoidance or procrastinating to protect others experience. For instance we are out somewhere with all the kids and I can see and feel her brewing about a problem we are experiencing that she can not let go. I will often ignore it or avoid describing the issues until later when the event is over. I do this to avoid allowing her cold and nasty behavior to ruin the experience for the kids, they sense when we argue. I also do this to avoid giving her the ammunition necessary to say I was the one who ruined the night, something she does often. For the most part though, to answer your question, the answer is no, I typically face confrontation head on in my life.


----------



## Faithful Wife

482 said:


> red oak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you passive/aggressive?
> 
> 
> 
> I hear it tossed around a lot but I searched to make sure my understating it correct. Here is what I found;
> 
> "of or denoting a type of behavior or personality characterized by indirect resistance to the demands of others and an avoidance of direct confrontation, as in procrastinating, pouting, or misplacing important materials."
> 
> My answer is no. I may at times do something that could be described as avoidance or procrastinating to protect others experience. For instance we are out somewhere with all the kids and I can see and feel her brewing about a problem we are experiencing that she can not let go. I will often ignore it or avoid describing the issues until later when the event is over. I do this to avoid allowing her cold and nasty behavior to ruin the experience for the kids, they sense when we argue. I also do this to avoid giving her the ammunition necessary to say I was the one who ruined the night, something she does often. For the most part though, to answer your question, the answer is no, I typically face confrontation head on in my life.
Click to expand...

You face confrontation head on....

How do you confront her/what do you say after she “often” tells you that you “ruined the night”?

How often do you confront her privately in an adult conversation about how her “cold and nasty” behavior causes the kids to have a bad experience?

How often do you confront a problem with her and work out a solution that gets implemented and the problem is dissolved or diluted? Or even just some growth or a good conversation came out of a confrontation?


----------



## farsidejunky

@482:

Be very careful in saying that somebody "makes you feel" a certain way. This is a thinking trap.

Your feelings are yours, and holding her responsible for how you feel is a convenient way to avoid any personal accountability. The sooner you own that, the less rejection will sting when it happens.

That said, 7 out of 10 is pretty good.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 482

Faithful Wife said:


> You face confrontation head on....
> 
> How do you confront her/what do you say after she “often” tells you that you “ruined the night”?
> 
> How often do you confront her privately in an adult conversation about how her “cold and nasty” behavior causes the kids to have a bad experience?
> 
> How often do you confront a problem with her and work out a solution that gets implemented and the problem is dissolved or diluted? Or even just some growth or a good conversation came out of a confrontation?




I do confront her. I waited till after the event and told her I need to speak to her alone. I told her it is not ok for her to tell me I always ruin important events for us. It is her attempt at hurting me rather than reality, it needs to stop, now. 

I always confront privately unless I screw up and she pulls me into an argument with others around. As far as the frequency I don’t wait long after a problem, trying to get things resolved quickly. Her cold and nasty behavior is a popular topic of discussion for us. The issue typically is she has a very hard time verbalizing her acceptance or her ****ty behavior. She may know something she has done or said is wrong. She may even act on it and I will notice different handling (better) of the same issue next time. But she very rarely can say this out loud. “What I did was not ok, I know that, I’m sorry. 

We always try to talk about things to get some growth or positive conversation. Growth does happen but positive, we both feel good at the end conversation, is rare. She get cold and nasty very quickly and takes a long time to calm down. Once calm she will not circle back, I do that.


----------



## 482

farsidejunky said:


> @482:
> 
> Be very careful in saying that somebody "makes you feel" a certain way. This is a thinking trap.
> 
> Your feelings are yours, and holding her responsible for how you feel is a convenient way to avoid any personal accountability. The sooner you own that, the less rejection will sting when it happens.
> 
> That said, 7 out of 10 is pretty good.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk



Thank you. Could you expand on this a bit, I am interested to learn more. Less sting would be great. I will provide an example;

I initiate sex and she says no for some reason.

Because she said no I feel like my partner does not have the same desire for me that I have for her. I feel rejected. I feel confused and conflicted because the reasons do not make sense. I feel like she has little concern for my needs in this relationship. I feel scared this will only get worse. I don’t want her to just say yes I want her to want it like I do, otherwise sex sucks. 

I only feel this way because she said no.


----------



## aine

red oak said:


> I remember reading some of the book..too close manipulation for me.
> I don't ask my wife for sex. She would lose almost all respect for me if I did. *A man doesn't ask his wife, he amps it up through the day*.


Exactly, it's part of the foreplay. Ignore your wife all day then look for sex is at your peril, it smacks of self centeredness, and women can see right through that BS. A woman wants to feel cherished and loved and if you don't think it is worth your while then go take care of your business alone, it is that simple

That is not to say there are times when it is pure lust and all of the preamble is dispensed with. However, in long term relationships the lusty animalistic passion is usually not quite there so some work is required, wanting to just stick it in with no build up leaves a lot to be desired!


----------



## Bananapeel

482 said:


> Thank you. Could you expand on this a bit, I am interested to learn more. Less sting would be great. I will provide an example;
> 
> I initiate sex and she says no for some reason.
> 
> Because she said no I feel like my partner does not have the same desire for me that I have for her.
> True, she doesn't.
> I feel rejected.
> Of course you do...she rejected you
> I feel confused and conflicted because the reasons do not make sense.
> That's because you know they are BS excuses and it's an insult that you are supposed to believe them
> I feel like she has little concern for my needs in this relationship.
> True again. She doesn't.
> I feel scared this will only get worse.
> Yup, it will. It's good you recognize it.
> I don’t want her to just say yes I want her to want it like I do, otherwise sex sucks.
> Agreed, but you can't control her. You can only control yourself and what you tolerate in a partner
> 
> I only feel this way because she said no.
> Not true. You also feel this way because you overvalue her in the relationship.


You seem to have a really good handle on the situation and why it's bothering you. Now you just have to take some action.


----------



## 482

Bananapeel said:


> You seem to have a really good handle on the situation and why it's bothering you. Now you just have to take some action.


Could you expand on this a bit? Not sure why you think I overvalue her. 

"I only feel this way because she said no.
Not true. You also feel this way because you overvalue her in the relationship."


----------



## Bananapeel

If you valued yourself as much as you valued her then you never would have been accepting of a relationship where any of your basic needs aren't getting met. Instead you value her happiness at a higher level than your own which is why you have sacrificed your sexual satisfaction for years. Hence you are overvaluing her in the relationship in comparison to the value you ascribe to yourself. This is also referred to as putting a woman on a pedestal, which usually fails, because if you treat a woman like her needs/desires are above your own then she's going to believe you.

You might also be worried that she is going to leave you if you stand up for yourself, which wouldn't be a concern if you didn't place a higher intrinsic value on her in the relationship than on what you contribute. Is she the best you can get? Be honest, because usually settling for unmet needs is because you don't think you can find someone that is better. 

The thing about what you are doing that many of us have tried to tell you is that it is a problem of your own creation. If you didn't accept the situation and were willing to walk away, she'd pick up on it and the problem never would have developed. Those of us that get sex from our GF or W whenever we want and have an exciting and fulfilling sex life project that we expect that to be the norm and find partners that are compatible, rather than trying to make something work with someone that isn't meeting our needs. I dated a woman a year ago that told me early on in our relationship that she could tell I was the type of guy that was used to getting what he wanted. How do you think our sex life was when she saw me in that light? I can tell you it is like all the other women I've dated, where anything I want is allowed and the woman is an enthusiastic partner that initiates as much as I do.


----------



## aaarghdub

I agree with the pedestal point but sometimes leaving is not that easy. 

In my case, my wife (after years of being together) told me about her childhood and recently about a traumatic sexual experience she had in middle school. We’ve been married 16.5 years and when this finally came out it explains so much.

I’ve tried to talk about sex with my wife but as I told our MC, as we get older her current life feels more like her childhood and since counsels prostitutes in her clinical practice sex is now dirty and disgusting. She does not want to talk about it at all. And thus is placed in a box. So in Iight of her abuse event and the need to protect our kids from it, she decides when, where and how it’s opened. When done the box goes back and it’s not to be discussed or opened until she is horny again. I’ve given up initiating because the sex has turned me into a bomb squad guy trying to figure out what wire to cut without blowing us all up. It is demoralizing.

Two weeks ago in the middle of sex after focusing on her for a while she got on top and wanted to go right into PIV. I commented that she focus on me for awhile since she typically doesn’t. She froze and had a panic attack because of her traumatic event after 18 years of sex!

My point to all this sometimes because of the past, the stereotypical charactatures of sex (women need emotional connection, men need to ejaculate) are turned on it’s head. It’s about “wham bam thank you sir” because sex is a emotional problem but she can’t fight her hormones either. A true dichotomy to manage not solve. 

If sex feels dirty or lacks emotional connection, men pickup on this. You can’t have a one-way emotional connection during sex. For women who weren’t abused or abandoned, the point about alpha-male confidence is completely valid. However, for women with abandonment or sex abuse/assault issues, I’m finding the traditional wisdom you read on the internet for getting your partner to be passionate for sex just doesn’t work. You need to see a MC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 482

Bananapeel said:


> If you valued yourself as much as you valued her then you never would have been accepting of a relationship where any of your basic needs aren't getting met. Instead you value her happiness at a higher level than your own which is why you have sacrificed your sexual satisfaction for years. Hence you are overvaluing her in the relationship in comparison to the value you ascribe to yourself. This is also referred to as putting a woman on a pedestal, which usually fails, because if you treat a woman like her needs/desires are above your own then she's going to believe you.
> 
> You might also be worried that she is going to leave you if you stand up for yourself, which wouldn't be a concern if you didn't place a higher intrinsic value on her in the relationship than on what you contribute. Is she the best you can get? Be honest, because usually settling for unmet needs is because you don't think you can find someone that is better.
> 
> The thing about what you are doing that many of us have tried to tell you is that it is a problem of your own creation. If you didn't accept the situation and were willing to walk away, she'd pick up on it and the problem never would have developed. Those of us that get sex from our GF or W whenever we want and have an exciting and fulfilling sex life project that we expect that to be the norm and find partners that are compatible, rather than trying to make something work with someone that isn't meeting our needs. I dated a woman a year ago that told me early on in our relationship that she could tell I was the type of guy that was used to getting what he wanted. How do you think our sex life was when she saw me in that light? I can tell you it is like all the other women I've dated, where anything I want is allowed and the woman is an enthusiastic partner that initiates as much as I do.


I understand better now. Thank you


----------



## BioFury

uhtred said:


> Sucks. (only probably not actually).
> 
> Yup married to the same woman, which might explain why she is so tired all the time :smile2:
> 
> My case is slightly different in that sometimes she wants sex. It has to be between 2 and 5 on a sunday afternoon, which is our chore day. Its of course not every sunday, often there is something "more important' to do - (which is to say pretty much anything). We do have some sort of sexual interaction more often than do many people. (though no actual sex anymore). Usually though I get the same warnings sunday.





uhtred said:


> Yup, this is pretty standard in our home too.
> 
> Ever evening when we get home from work there is a sort if ritual where she tells me how she is tired / feeling-poorly / busy / not-sleeping. All of which are code words for "don't ask for sex". Every night. Needless to say she is never too tired for things she wants to do.
> 
> Clearly it is not that she is tired / etc.. She doesn't want sex - and maybe can't even explain to herself why that is.
> 
> Sometimes its funny in a sad way. On one anniversary trip we stayed in a nice place in Venice. Beautiful room - all mirrors and antiques, view of the grand canal. Super romantic. I could almost see the gears turning in her head as she tried to find a way to say that she was too tired / ill / whatever for sex but wanted to go out and walk around the city.


Why do you tolerate her blatant neglect and apathy?


----------



## uhtred

Leave, Cheat, Live like a monk. 
Which one do you suggest?


She is near-asexual, has almost no sexual desire. If I'd discovered / understood that 35 years ago things would have been different. 

I do not want to be "serviced", sex is uninteresting to me without desire and I can never get that from my wife. 

So I had to make a choice, and decided that while sex is important, it is not more important to me than everything else. 




BioFury said:


> Why do you tolerate her blatant neglect and apathy?


----------



## BioFury

uhtred said:


> Leave, Cheat, Live like a monk.
> Which one do you suggest?
> 
> 
> She is near-asexual, has almost no sexual desire. If I'd discovered / understood that 35 years ago things would have been different.
> 
> I do not want to be "serviced", sex is uninteresting to me without desire and I can never get that from my wife.
> 
> So I had to make a choice, and decided that while sex is important, it is not more important to me than everything else.


If you're content with your choice, then I wish you the best. Just reading your description of your vacation got me fired up. I don't think I would sleep in the same bed as a woman who manufactured excuses to keep me away from her. The idea of financially supporting, and emotionally gratifying, a woman who considered me a bother would make my blood boil.

Mind if I ask what she was like when you were dating her? Looking back, did you see any sexual red flags? How did things progress to this stage?


----------



## Bananapeel

aaarghdub said:


> I agree with the pedestal point but sometimes leaving is not that easy.
> 
> In my case, my wife (after years of being together) told me about her childhood and recently about a traumatic sexual experience she had in middle school. We’ve been married 16.5 years and when this finally came out it explains so much.
> 
> I’ve tried to talk about sex with my wife but as I told our MC, as we get older her current life feels more like her childhood and since counsels prostitutes in her clinical practice sex is now dirty and disgusting. She does not want to talk about it at all. And thus is placed in a box. So in Iight of her abuse event and the need to protect our kids from it, she decides when, where and how it’s opened. When done the box goes back and it’s not to be discussed or opened until she is horny again. I’ve given up initiating because the sex has turned me into a bomb squad guy trying to figure out what wire to cut without blowing us all up. It is demoralizing.
> 
> Two weeks ago in the middle of sex after focusing on her for a while she got on top and wanted to go right into PIV. I commented that she focus on me for awhile since she typically doesn’t. She froze and had a panic attack because of her traumatic event after 18 years of sex!
> 
> My point to all this sometimes because of the past, the stereotypical charactatures of sex (women need emotional connection, men need to ejaculate) are turned on it’s head. It’s about “wham bam thank you sir” because sex is a emotional problem but she can’t fight her hormones either. A true dichotomy to manage not solve.
> 
> If sex feels dirty or lacks emotional connection, men pickup on this. You can’t have a one-way emotional connection during sex. For women who weren’t abused or abandoned, the point about alpha-male confidence is completely valid. However, for women with abandonment or sex abuse/assault issues, I’m finding the traditional wisdom you read on the internet for getting your partner to be passionate for sex just doesn’t work. You need to see a MC.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's true, but if that is the OP's situation he needs to realize it's not his job to save her. Partners that are damaged goods and aren't capable of being involved in a mutually satisfying relationship are under no obligation to receive the benefits of that relationship. 

So if the woman (or man) had a traumatic event and is not capable of being involved in a happy sex life then why would a guy (or woman) choose to be with her? That's completely on him for not cutting the cord and walking away. Plus, guys that are willing to walk away tend to project that and their partners are then more willing to address/fix their issues that are causing discontentment in their relationships. 

Yes, it can be hard to leave especially if there are kids or financial ties, but each person needs to own the decisions that they make in their lives. If his partner had a traumatic past he can feel bad that she had experienced that trauma and that it continued to affect her, but that doesn't mean it's his responsibility to deal with or something he would want to incorporate into his life. 

The whole point is act like and adult and advocate for your personal needs. If your needs aren't met you are under no obligation to stay in an unfulfilling situation regardless of your history, length of relationship, or number of kids you have. If someone chooses to stay then they should understand and accept the consequences of their decisions and quite complaining about them.


----------



## ChargingCharlie

uhtred said:


> Leave, Cheat, Live like a monk.
> Which one do you suggest?
> 
> 
> She is near-asexual, has almost no sexual desire. If I'd discovered / understood that 35 years ago things would have been different.
> 
> I do not want to be "serviced", sex is uninteresting to me without desire and I can never get that from my wife.
> 
> So I had to make a choice, and decided that while sex is important, it is not more important to me than everything else.


Substitute 17 years for 35 years and I can write the exact same thing. I'm not going to upset the apple cart with two little kids just because my wife decides that sex is a chore only to be endured once every year or so.


----------



## Bananapeel

ChargingCharlie said:


> Substitute 17 years for 35 years and I can write the exact same thing. I'm not going to upset the apple cart with two little kids just because my wife decides that sex is a chore only to be endured once every year or so.


I would.


----------



## Personal

ChargingCharlie said:


> Substitute 17 years for 35 years and I can write the exact same thing. I'm not going to upset the apple cart with two little kids just because my wife decides that sex is a chore only to be endured once every year or so.


Since you aren't interested in having sex, except for every year or so. I think it's commendable that you have decided not to upset the apple cart.

Especially considering the fact that your wife, doesn't want to have sex with you. While you don't want to have sex with anyone, since you voluntarily accept that without getting sex elsewhere.

Which makes it pretty clear, that you are both highly compatible, with respect to not wanting to have sex with each other.

So from that perspective, I don't think anyone should discourage you from living a life of celibacy, when that is what you choose for yourself.

As you describe your marital relationship, it looks like you have found an ideal partner for yourself. So given that, upsetting the apple cart would be a silly thing to do.


----------



## 482

Thanks for all the comments everyone. I don't think my situation is anywhere near something I would walk away from. If we were going weeks or months without sex and she was saying no all the time things would be different. She is well aware that there is no way I would ever remain in a sexless relationship. In all honesty I just think her drive is a bit less than mine. If my sex drive is a 10 hers is an 8 or a 7. She does enjoy sex very much. I don't think at this point my situation is that bad. With that said there is sex problems with us. She is saying no sometimes and that always gets us screwed up. If she initiated sex sometimes I think it would be much easier when she says no, because I would know she desires me. It would be nice if she was more sexual with me even just in discussions about sex. I have told her I have a problem with our sex life. I am sure she does not feel close due to the fighting we do and my ability to stand up for my boundaries at the cost of the relationship. Im sure that makes her fell very disposable and in turn less sexually responsive. Hopefully she decides our issues are worth her attention and we can work on resolving them, I'm not going to beg for that to happen.


----------



## Holdingontoit

uhtred said:


> Leave, Cheat, Live like a monk.
> Which one do you suggest?


Leave is always the best choice.

Only those of us who do not value ourselves sufficiently are willing to accept "live like a monk". Which is always the worst choice.


----------



## Roomatehusband

482 said:


> Totally understand. I would also get defensive if someone were telling me I was not good enough. The thing is that is the way she takes it not the way I say it. I just want to discuss our sex life. She takes that as she is not good enough sexually. How do you defuse when this takes place? I try to just reinforce that I want to have a productive discussion not a fight. I also try very hard not to allow her to drag me into an argument. I admit I need to get better at that.


Sounds exactly like my wife. I bring up how we r not having much sex and she gets into this crazy defensive mode and ends up crying hysterically saying that she’s a dissapointment and doesnt make me hsppy and this and that. But all im trying to do is have a sex life with my wife or at least figure out why we barely have one. This happems a few times ayr and her resction is always the same. It makes no sense, just have sexwith ur husband why is that so hard to understand


----------



## EllisRedding

Roomatehusband said:


> Sounds exactly like my wife. I bring up how we r not having much sex and she gets into this crazy defensive mode and ends up crying hysterically saying that she’s a dissapointment and doesnt make me hsppy and this and that. But all im trying to do is have a sex life with my wife or at least figure out why we barely have one. This happems a few times ayr and her resction is always the same. It makes no sense, just have sexwith ur husband why is that so hard to understand


So she is unwilling to discuss at all what the potential issue is? Has it been this way throughout the entire relationship or only more recently?


----------



## farsidejunky

Roomatehusband said:


> Sounds exactly like my wife. I bring up how we r not having much sex and she gets into this crazy defensive mode and ends up crying hysterically saying that she’s a dissapointment and doesnt make me hsppy and this and that. But all im trying to do is have a sex life with my wife or at least figure out why we barely have one. This happems a few times ayr and her resction is always the same. It makes no sense, just have sexwith ur husband why is that so hard to understand


"Wife, when you are ready to discuss how to make it better rather then justify why it's reached this point, let me know."

Then simply prioritize her far less than you do now, and stop talking about it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## happiness27

482 said:


> Thanks for all the comments everyone. I don't think my situation is anywhere near something I would walk away from. If we were going weeks or months without sex and she was saying no all the time things would be different. She is well aware that there is no way I would ever remain in a sexless relationship. In all honesty I just think her drive is a bit less than mine. If my sex drive is a 10 hers is an 8 or a 7. She does enjoy sex very much. I don't think at this point my situation is that bad. With that said there is sex problems with us. She is saying no sometimes and that always gets us screwed up. If she initiated sex sometimes I think it would be much easier when she says no, because I would know she desires me. It would be nice if she was more sexual with me even just in discussions about sex. I have told her I have a problem with our sex life. I am sure she does not feel close due to the fighting we do and my ability to stand up for my boundaries at the cost of the relationship. Im sure that makes her fell very disposable and in turn less sexually responsive. Hopefully she decides our issues are worth her attention and we can work on resolving them, I'm not going to beg for that to happen.


Women and men approach sex differently. One of the sticking points for women is that, in general, men do not understand women's sex drive and for many, if not most women, they do not feel that men have much interest in how she works sexually. 

There are at least a couple of men on TAM who have figured this out - had "a-ha" moments - and adjusted their thinking, their understanding and their behavior to achieve a compatible sexual relationship. 

It's a lot of work - and I do get from reading the comments that men tend to view women with that My Fair Lady stance: "Why can't a woman...be more like a man?"

Well, we're not. 

Women have a much broader sexual experience that men would absolutely love if somehow the benefit of stepping into the realm of the female sexual experience was something they were willing to allow themselves to do. 

Men can have a thought about sex - and be ready. This rarely happens for a multi-tasking feminine brain. A woman must unlatch herself from her multi-tasking brain and focus only on sex. This does not happen naturally for a woman. Men who become aware of how their specific woman works sexually will have a much improved sex life.

Men appear to measure their sex life in terms of frequency. Women measure their sex life in terms of quality. 

From the posts, there is this apparent association that men have with the frequency of sex and their self esteem. Projecting that insecurity onto their sex partner (she must not love me, she must not find me attractive), which is out of left field thinking for women. 

Men who who project lovingness, flirtation without expectation, seduction from a distance (I could write a book about how to do this) and drop the idea that frequency equals "great sex life" - will find a lot of fullfillment with their partner. 

Women need to feel safe in order to have a strong sexual desire. The threat of being abandoned if they don't have sex everyday or several times a week does not make a woman feel safe. It puts her in a position of have "fear sex" so she won't be abandoned.

What makes sex great for a woman is often overlooked by men. Women know that men want to "get to the good stuff" as quickly as possible, whereas a woman gets a lot of pleasure from all kinds of things that men find mundane, even making fun of "she wants conversation." 

Women are self-conscious about themselves - a lot of which is reinforced societally. Is she pretty? Is she sexy? What does she say to herself (the most important thing to her belief system)? All of this goes into play. When a man tries to explain that his porn, his glances, his general sexual attraction to fleeting images or people is irrelevant and unimportant compared to his "making love" relationship with his partner - yeah, no, she doesn't see it that way. A woman is attracted to a man who treats her like a queen and means it. How her man talks about her to others, if he respects women and takes a stance for women when they are being talked about in a negative way - how he refers to women even off-handedly with the guys ("dude, you run like a girl" for instance, is a negative statement about women), all these things are noticed and internalized by women partners. If a man speaks in disrespectful ways about women - his own woman is going to feel put down...whether you think she SHOULD or not ("I was just kidding - can't you take a joke?").

As for women (or men) who have a traumatic sexual past - if that is something that a man doesn't want to deal with, then, yes, he should leave her alone, just walk away. The damage done from CSA or other types of sexual abuse is only for certain personalities of people. The recovery is possible but it's a lifelong process that will never be "normal" - whatever that looks like. If a man is, like, "Dude, you don't need that kind of negativity in your life", then he's the wrong partner for that woman. He will never *get it* and will just make things worse for her.

I've spent many years studying how men tick sexually because it's important to me that my partner is happy and satisfied. I don't see that men take as much interest in women's sexuality. Overall in society right now, women are still the butt of all sorts of gender jokes and it's consider "being a *****, wimp, weak" if a man does anything that is widely more associated with women behavior. He shouldn't cry, express emotions, be gentle, be compassionate, ask for gentleness, ask for compassion - or talk about his problems. "Don't be a girl."

Mostly what I hear is the complaint about frequency, as if that's a measuring stick for success. A woman who is putting so much into having a quality sex life is not going to react by generating more frequency when her efforts at quality are dismissed in favor of more frequency.

Add to all of this that the behaviors that are applauded in men are sources of shame for women. Utterly, utterly baffling. A guy who has sex "scores" and a woman who has sex is a "sl*t" - and so on and so forth - you know all the catchphrases. A woman is supposed to keep her panties on until she's married ideally - but, if not, there shouldn't be too many or she's "loose" and not worthy of being a longterm partner. Once she's married, her husband is supposed to be the best she's ever had and she's always supposed to love whatever he does whenever and however he wants to do it. She DOES have an orgasm during doggie sex...right???? Well, if she doesn't, she's supposed to at least say that she did.

Now, in none of this am I talking about cruel, vicious women who are mental cases using sex as a weapon. Frankly, those people are (thankfully) rare. Much more rare than TAM somehow would like us to believe.

Men who take a genuine interest and are open to learning and embracing and understanding of feminine sexuality are not wimps. They are men who have put on a new pair of glasses - having had some a-ha or doh moments seeing sex from their partner's point of view. Thus, these are the men having great sex with their partners.


----------



## FeministInPink

happiness27 said:


> Women and men approach sex differently. One of the sticking points for women is that, in general, men do not understand women's sex drive and for many, if not most women, they do not feel that men have much interest in how she works sexually.
> 
> 
> 
> There are at least a couple of men on TAM who have figured this out - had "a-ha" moments - and adjusted their thinking, their understanding and their behavior to achieve a compatible sexual relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a lot of work - and I do get from reading the comments that men tend to view women with that My Fair Lady stance: "Why can't a woman...be more like a man?"
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we're not.
> 
> 
> 
> Women have a much broader sexual experience that men would absolutely love if somehow the benefit of stepping into the realm of the female sexual experience was something they were willing to allow themselves to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Men can have a thought about sex - and be ready. This rarely happens for a multi-tasking feminine brain. A woman must unlatch herself from her multi-tasking brain and focus only on sex. This does not happen naturally for a woman. Men who become aware of how their specific woman works sexually will have a much improved sex life.
> 
> 
> 
> Men appear to measure their sex life in terms of frequency. Women measure their sex life in terms of quality.
> 
> 
> 
> From the posts, there is this apparent association that men have with the frequency of sex and their self esteem. Projecting that insecurity onto their sex partner (she must not love me, she must not find me attractive), which is out of left field thinking for women.
> 
> 
> 
> Men who who project lovingness, flirtation without expectation, seduction from a distance (I could write a book about how to do this) and drop the idea that frequency equals "great sex life" - will find a lot of fullfillment with their partner.
> 
> 
> 
> Women need to feel safe in order to have a strong sexual desire. The threat of being abandoned if they don't have sex everyday or several times a week does not make a woman feel safe. It puts her in a position of have "fear sex" so she won't be abandoned.
> 
> 
> 
> What makes sex great for a woman is often overlooked by men. Women know that men want to "get to the good stuff" as quickly as possible, whereas a woman gets a lot of pleasure from all kinds of things that men find mundane, even making fun of "she wants conversation."
> 
> 
> 
> Women are self-conscious about themselves - a lot of which is reinforced societally. Is she pretty? Is she sexy? What does she say to herself (the most important thing to her belief system)? All of this goes into play. When a man tries to explain that his porn, his glances, his general sexual attraction to fleeting images or people is irrelevant and unimportant compared to his "making love" relationship with his partner - yeah, no, she doesn't see it that way. A woman is attracted to a man who treats her like a queen and means it. How her man talks about her to others, if he respects women and takes a stance for women when they are being talked about in a negative way - how he refers to women even off-handedly with the guys ("dude, you run like a girl" for instance, is a negative statement about women), all these things are noticed and internalized by women partners. If a man speaks in disrespectful ways about women - his own woman is going to feel put down...whether you think she SHOULD or not ("I was just kidding - can't you take a joke?").
> 
> 
> 
> As for women (or men) who have a traumatic sexual past - if that is something that a man doesn't want to deal with, then, yes, he should leave her alone, just walk away. The damage done from CSA or other types of sexual abuse is only for certain personalities of people. The recovery is possible but it's a lifelong process that will never be "normal" - whatever that looks like. If a man is, like, "Dude, you don't need that kind of negativity in your life", then he's the wrong partner for that woman. He will never *get it* and will just make things worse for her.
> 
> 
> 
> I've spent many years studying how men tick sexually because it's important to me that my partner is happy and satisfied. I don't see that men take as much interest in women's sexuality. Overall in society right now, women are still the butt of all sorts of gender jokes and it's consider "being a *****, wimp, weak" if a man does anything that is widely more associated with women behavior. He shouldn't cry, express emotions, be gentle, be compassionate, ask for gentleness, ask for compassion - or talk about his problems. "Don't be a girl."
> 
> 
> 
> Mostly what I hear is the complaint about frequency, as if that's a measuring stick for success. A woman who is putting so much into having a quality sex life is not going to react by generating more frequency when her efforts at quality are dismissed in favor of more frequency.
> 
> 
> 
> Add to all of this that the behaviors that are applauded in men are sources of shame for women. Utterly, utterly baffling. A guy who has sex "scores" and a woman who has sex is a "sl*t" - and so on and so forth - you know all the catchphrases. A woman is supposed to keep her panties on until she's married ideally - but, if not, there shouldn't be too many or she's "loose" and not worthy of being a longterm partner. Once she's married, her husband is supposed to be the best she's ever had and she's always supposed to love whatever he does whenever and however he wants to do it. She DOES have an orgasm during doggie sex...right???? Well, if she doesn't, she's supposed to at least say that she did.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, in none of this am I talking about cruel, vicious women who are mental cases using sex as a weapon. Frankly, those people are (thankfully) rare. Much more rare than TAM somehow would like us to believe.
> 
> 
> 
> Men who take a genuine interest and are open to learning and embracing and understanding of feminine sexuality are not wimps. They are men who have put on a new pair of glasses - having had some a-ha or doh moments seeing sex from their partner's point of view. Thus, these are the men having great sex with their partners.


This is one of the most brilliant posts I have seen on TAM. Everyone should read this. Brava! 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr. Nail

Thank you for reassuring us that we are all idiots. Everything that we were doing right at the beginning of the relationship is now Stupid. We are hopelessly clueless and that is how we got into long term relationships with frigid *****es.


----------



## HDC

So basically...... act unmanly, weak, and be a total spineless a$$ kisser and be proud of the quality bone she throws you a handful of times a year. Sounds wonderful doesn’t it. SMDH


----------



## happiness27

Mr. Nail said:


> Thank you for reassuring us that we are all idiots. Everything that we were doing right at the beginning of the relationship is now Stupid. We are hopelessly clueless and that is how we got into long term relationships with frigid *****es.


I've heard this response before. 

Two parts to what you just said: 

1.) The turn-around: Woman asks for what she wants sexually - man lashes out with sarcasm.

2.) Calls her a frigid ***** (or whatever derogatory of his choosing).

The way a woman hopes (your woman) you would respond: You lean towards her with excitement and say "Tell me more, beautiful, about this hot, wonderful sexuality of yours."

Which one is going to end up creating more sexual encounters?


----------



## happiness27

HDC said:


> So basically...... act unmanly, weak, and be a total spineless a$$ kisser and be proud of the quality bone she throws you a handful of times a year. Sounds wonderful doesn’t it. SMDH


Ask the man who understands and embraces a woman's sexuality if he is "unmanly" and/or a "total spineless a$$kisser" or if he's just a guy who is getting laid a lot.


----------



## HDC

You know what a person should need to do to have their spouse sexually attracted to them?
Just be themselves.... that simple, nothing more, nothing less. You shouldn’t have to jump through hoops, stack greasy BB’s or stand on one leg and recite the alphabet. If you’re not sexually attracted to your spouse, why are they your spouse?


----------



## Cynthia

HDC said:


> You know what a person should need to do to have their spouse sexually attracted to them?
> Just be themselves.... that simple, nothing more, nothing less. You shouldn’t have to jump through hoops, stack greasy BB’s or stand on one leg and recite the alphabet. If you’re not sexually attracted to your spouse, why are they your spouse?


This is not necessarily true. If a person is otherwise attractive to his/her spouse, but is doing something that is creating a problem, that should be resolved. Not all attraction is so black and white. Say a woman wants her husband to shower in the evening, because his scent after a day of work is too much for her, if he showers she sees him as irresistible. Sometimes it's that simple.


----------



## notmyjamie

HDC said:


> You know what a person should need to do to have their spouse sexually attracted to them?
> Just be themselves.... that simple, nothing more, nothing less. You shouldn’t have to jump through hoops, stack greasy BB’s or stand on one leg and recite the alphabet. If you’re not sexually attracted to your spouse, why are they your spouse?



Agreed. The problem comes when people change over time, or don't change in the way that life demands, as in when you marry, have kids, etc. So maybe the wife loved having sex in the beginning but adding on lots of responsibilities to their life killed that for her, or hormones are working against her after childbirth, or whatever. But now you've got kids and you don't want to leave them. And you feel guilty choosing a sex life over the trauma of breaking up your kids' family. It's a tough decision. 

But, there are some things you can do that aren't "jumping through hoops" that might help your sex life. It's only smart to make a few small changes to improve things. For example, I despise being "asked" to have sex. Jesus, what a turn off. If you want to have sex with me, do something to get me going. There are a few absolutes that I will not turn down ever. Learn them, use them. I have told a couple different partners. One used that info to his advantage and the other just couldn't be bothered to make that change. Guess which one got laid more often with better quality sex which, in turn, made him feel more desired. :grin2:


----------



## BluesPower

happiness27 said:


> I've heard this response before.
> 
> Two parts to what you just said:
> 
> 1.) The turn-around: Woman asks for what she wants sexually - man lashes out with sarcasm.
> 
> 2.) Calls her a frigid ***** (or whatever derogatory of his choosing).
> 
> The way a woman hopes (your woman) you would respond: You lean towards her with excitement and say "Tell me more, beautiful, about this hot, wonderful sexuality of yours."
> 
> Which one is going to end up creating more sexual encounters?


Guys, I, in some ways, hate to admit this, but H27 does have a handle on women's sexuality. 

I am not saying that I think all of it is right, or that I wish somethings were not different. 

But there is a very small cross section of women where this is not the way that it works, and as much as some of it sucks, it is the way that it works. 

Some of us guys that just fell into this, H27's view or whatever, that have had success with women and sex STILL THINK some of this sucks, but it is correct in so many ways. 

Sometimes this, somewhat realistic view of sex, makes me NOT feel so bad for the BAD things I have done. I don't know if anyone can understand what that means.

But for H27 and others, How fair is this? Is it any wonder that some men choose to just screw over women for sex all the time. That we may never want to get into a REAL marriage or relationship because of all the hoops that we have to jump through to keep you girls happy. 

Here is the other side, and now I think I will sound like a girl in some ways. I could have just kept screwing women that wanted to be screwed. The sex was OK, there was plenty of it, with a variety of woman, some of it was really good if not great. So, I could just continue catting around, getting laid by whoever. And to an extent, that was OK, I could still be doing that. 

But I wanted more, for what ever reason, and I met GF. She bewitched me with her looks, her whole being, and she made me love her. 

It is all her fault. But once she had me hooked, I had to continue to play all the seduction games that I was playing already, and then I fell in love. And everything was wonderful and ****ty at the same time. 

See, some of us learned to play the "women's sexuality game", and some of us are good at it, and in some way it sill sucks, but then again sometimes it does not...

For example: 

Why do the men have to "always" be the suductor? Why is it that we have to seduce from across the room. Why is that? 

Why do we have to continually be the stud... the dominant sexual partner...Why is that? 

We have to look good, perform at a high level, reaffirm their beauty and desirability, their emotional needs... and on and on. 

Yeah, I know how to do it, I am good at it, but you know what, sometimes I just want a blow job without any other BS involved. 

In some ways, it is easier to just screw random woman, but then... You make us fall in love with you...Somehow it is just not fair...

Now, I had a couple at lunch so who really knows if this post is at all coherent????


----------



## notmyjamie

482 said:


> I initiate sex and she says no for some reason.
> 
> Because she said no I feel like my partner does not have the same desire for me that I have for her. I feel rejected. I feel confused and conflicted because the reasons do not make sense. I feel like she has little concern for my needs in this relationship. I feel scared this will only get worse. I don’t want her to just say yes I want her to want it like I do, otherwise sex sucks.
> 
> I only feel this way because she said no.



I think you need to challenge your thoughts on this. Your wife has good quality sex with you 70% of the time that you approach her. You've said you think your problem is just a difference in libido (and not that much of one!) so why do allow all these negative thoughts to invade your brain each time? A woman who has great sex with you 70% of the time does desire you, does love you, does enjoy your sex life. When you start these thoughts, stop yourself and remind yourself of this. It's ridiculous to say she has "little concern for your needs" So she's only concerned about your needs if she is at 100%??? What about HER needs to be able to say no if she really isn't in the mood? 

As for your other comments about oral sex and thinking she feels degraded and you can't understand why. As a woman, I can say that MEN are their own worst enemies in this (as a whole, not individual) I can't tell you how many times I've heard a blow job joke where the woman is depicted as a total ***** with no respect. Men talk about blow jobs as if the giver is the lowest of the low on the respect scale. And THAT might be why women find it degrading. If men as a whole want women to be more into this activity, they should SHUT UP with talking that way. Just sayin. 

I used to be just like your wife. I would do it, and wanted to please my partner, but you would NOT find me on my knees to do it, ever. And I didn't feel comfortable letting him watch, my hair was always hiding his view. I finally had to realize that I should think of who I was trying to please and whether or not HE talked that way about the act. (He never, ever did) and when I challenged my thoughts about it, I felt better about pleasing him because I knew he didn't think of me in that way. That helped a lot. So, if you make those jokes, I'd recommend you stop. If you don't, then talk to your wife about it and tell her that for you, it's an act you respect. I think any women who could bring a man to his knees by getting on hers, deserves respect :smile2:


----------



## notmyjamie

BluesPower said:


> For example:
> 
> Why do the men have to "always" be the suductor? Why is it that we have to seduce from across the room. Why is that?
> 
> Why do we have to continually be the stud... the dominant sexual partner...Why is that?
> 
> We have to look good, perform at a high level, reaffirm their beauty and desirability, their emotional needs... and on and on.
> 
> Yeah, I know how to do it, I am good at it, but you know what, sometimes I just want a blow job without any other BS involved.
> 
> In some ways, it is easier to just screw random woman, but then... You make us fall in love with you...Somehow it is just not fair...
> 
> Now, I had a couple at lunch so who really knows if this post is at all coherent????


Your post is very coherent and your questions are valid. I think if men are going to do all those things for women all the time, it's only right to expect that sometimes, a guy can get that BJ without all the hassle because he's been making her feel good so he deserves to feel good sometimes too. Seems fair to me. But then again, I've very often been accused of "not being a real women" due to my attitudes about sex, dating, romance, etc.


----------



## Mr. Nail

happiness27 said:


> I've heard this response before.
> 
> Two parts to what you just said:
> 
> 1.) The turn-around: Woman asks for what she wants sexually - man lashes out with sarcasm.
> 
> 2.) Calls her a frigid ***** (or whatever derogatory of his choosing).
> 
> The way a woman hopes (your woman) you would respond: You lean towards her with excitement and say "Tell me more, beautiful, about this hot, wonderful sexuality of yours."
> 
> Which one is going to end up creating more sexual encounters?


Let me edit your flip response to bring it back in line with the thread topic.

1.) The turn-around: Woman refuses to talk about sex - man Abandons Hope.

Now that we have that straightened Let me answer again your question.
"Which one is going to end up creating more sexual encounters?"

Well based on 10 years of research trying these and many other approaches including asking someone who refuses to talk about sex to tell me about their "wonderful sexuality" the Answer is neither of these will have any effect whatsoever on this particular Iceberg. 

So you can pack up your accusations, and your one size fits all solutions and take them to the thread about spouses who are willing to engage in CONVERSATION. It has no place here and is quite insulting.


----------



## BluesPower

Mr. Nail said:


> Let me edit your flip response to bring it back in line with the thread topic.
> 
> 1.) The turn-around: Woman refuses to talk about sex - man Abandons Hope.
> 
> Now that we have that straightened Let me answer again your question.
> "Which one is going to end up creating more sexual encounters?"
> 
> Well based on 10 years of research trying these and many other approaches including asking someone who refuses to talk about sex to tell me about their "wonderful sexuality" the Answer is neither of these will have any effect whatsoever on this particular Iceberg.
> 
> So you can pack up your accusations, and your one size fits all solutions and take them to the thread about spouses who are willing to engage in CONVERSATION. It has no place here and is quite insulting.


Goodness, I understand your frustration, but seriously, if pot is legal in your state, maybe you should smoke a joint? 

Just saying...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

BluesPower said:


> Goodness, I understand your frustration, but seriously, if pot is legal in your state, maybe you should smoke a joint?
> 
> Just saying...



Yep, anytime things get tough, we should just turn to drugs. 
Brilliant solution. Can't imagine why more poor saps don't think of that themselves.


----------



## Buddy400

notmyjamie said:


> I think you need to challenge your thoughts on this. Your wife has good quality sex with you 70% of the time that you approach her. You've said you think your problem is just a difference in libido (and not that much of one!) so why do allow all these negative thoughts to invade your brain each time? A woman who has great sex with you 70% of the time does desire you, does love you, does enjoy your sex life. When you start these thoughts, stop yourself and remind yourself of this. It's ridiculous to say she has "little concern for your needs" So she's only concerned about your needs if she is at 100%??? What about HER needs to be able to say no if she really isn't in the mood?


Let's use *the thing women want* (substitute whatever a man does that a woman wants, let's say "listening to me talk about my day"). 

Say a wife starts talking to her husband about her day and 30% of the time he says "Sorry, honey. I'm just not in the mood to listen today".

Does the woman think to herself "what a great husband, he listens to me 70% of the time when I want to talk"?

Do you think she'd be a little reluctant to start new conversations with him if that happened?


----------



## notmyjamie

Buddy400 said:


> Let's use *the thing women want* (substitute whatever a man does that a woman wants, let's say "listening to me talk about my day").
> 
> Say a wife starts talking to her husband about her day and 30% of the time he says "Sorry, honey. I'm just not in the mood to listen today".
> 
> Does the woman think to herself "what a great husband, he listens to me 70% of the time when I want to talk"?
> 
> Do you think she'd be a little reluctant to start new conversations with him if that happened?



I don't know if she would, but she shouldn't. Nobody will ever be 100% on anything. If a guy has had a crappy day, he should be able to say "hey babe, I'm beat, I need to lie down or grab a beer and just sit in silence for a bit. Can we talk about this later?"

But, your comparison doesn't exactly work for me. Listening to your wife drone on about her day is a passive thing. You can sit there and daydream, think about sex, whatever as long as you throw in a few comments here and there. It can be done. A women having sex shouldn't be a passive activity unless you're into starfish. :grin2:

ETA: Of course, it all comes down to how you're turning down your partner. A women saying "Ugh...the last thing I want right now is sex with you!!!" is not the way to do it. Just like the husband saying "Jesus woman, I really don't want to listen to all your crap right now" is not the way for him to do it. It's all how you present something. In my example above, I'd be sending my partner to the couch to lie down and bringing him that beer and some tylenol. In the the other I'd be walking away in a huff.


----------



## Buddy400

BluesPower said:


> But for H27 and others, How fair is this? Is it any wonder that some men choose to just screw over women for sex all the time. That we may never want to get into a REAL marriage or relationship because of all the hoops that we have to jump through to keep you girls happy.
> 
> ........
> 
> For example:
> 
> Why do the men have to "always" be the suductor? Why is it that we have to seduce from across the room. Why is that?
> 
> Why do we have to continually be the stud... the dominant sexual partner...Why is that?
> 
> We have to look good, perform at a high level, reaffirm their beauty and desirability, their emotional needs... and on and on.
> 
> Yeah, I know how to do it, I am good at it, but you know what, sometimes I just want a blow job without any other BS involved.
> 
> In some ways, it is easier to just screw random woman, but then... You make us fall in love with you...Somehow it is just not fair...
> 
> Now, I had a couple at lunch so who really knows if this post is at all coherent????


Let's say that women had a problem with men not being as romantic and caring as they used to be. He used to take them out and listened intently to what she had to say. Now, he just sits around watching sports on TV drinking beer and grunting.

Let's say a man said "you just don't understand men, if you want them to be be romantic and attentive, you have to have sex with them all the time including lots of NSA blowjobs."

Would women just say, "well that's what you have to do to get him to behave the way you want? If you're not willing to do what they need to be attentive and romantic, what can you expect?"


----------



## Buddy400

CynthiaDe said:


> This is not necessarily true. If a person is otherwise attractive to his/her spouse, but is doing something that is creating a problem, that should be resolved. Not all attraction is so black and white. Say a woman wants her husband to shower in the evening, because his scent after a day of work is too much for her, if he showers she sees him as irresistible. Sometimes it's that simple.


True. Saying that it's somehow required that, if you were attracted to your spouse once, you should be attracted forever, would mean that your spouse could put on 100 pounds and stop bathing and you'd still be expected to desire them.


----------



## Buddy400

FeministInPink said:


> This is one of the most brilliant posts I have seen on TAM. Everyone should read this. Brava!


So, if you understand women and try hard enough to do what they require to want sex, men can continue having sex with them.

What's an equivalent situation where women have to understand men enough and try hard enough to get them to behave as they used to?

Let's say a husband isn't as romantic as he used to be. What is the woman doing wrong that is making him be less romantic?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

happiness27 said:


> Women and men approach sex differently. One of the sticking points for women is that, in general, men do not understand women's sex drive and for many, if not most women, they do not feel that men have much interest in how she works sexually.
> 
> There are at least a couple of men on TAM who have figured this out - had "a-ha" moments - and adjusted their thinking, their understanding and their behavior to achieve a compatible sexual relationship.
> 
> It's a lot of work - and I do get from reading the comments that men tend to view women with that My Fair Lady stance: "Why can't a woman...be more like a man?"
> 
> Well, we're not.
> 
> Women have a much broader sexual experience that men would absolutely love if somehow the benefit of stepping into the realm of the female sexual experience was something they were willing to allow themselves to do.
> 
> Men can have a thought about sex - and be ready. This rarely happens for a multi-tasking feminine brain. A woman must unlatch herself from her multi-tasking brain and focus only on sex. This does not happen naturally for a woman. Men who become aware of how their specific woman works sexually will have a much improved sex life.
> 
> Men appear to measure their sex life in terms of frequency. Women measure their sex life in terms of quality.
> 
> From the posts, there is this apparent association that men have with the frequency of sex and their self esteem. Projecting that insecurity onto their sex partner (she must not love me, she must not find me attractive), which is out of left field thinking for women.
> 
> Men who who project lovingness, flirtation without expectation, seduction from a distance (I could write a book about how to do this) and drop the idea that frequency equals "great sex life" - will find a lot of fullfillment with their partner.
> 
> Women need to feel safe in order to have a strong sexual desire. The threat of being abandoned if they don't have sex everyday or several times a week does not make a woman feel safe. It puts her in a position of have "fear sex" so she won't be abandoned.
> 
> What makes sex great for a woman is often overlooked by men. Women know that men want to "get to the good stuff" as quickly as possible, whereas a woman gets a lot of pleasure from all kinds of things that men find mundane, even making fun of "she wants conversation."
> 
> Women are self-conscious about themselves - a lot of which is reinforced societally. Is she pretty? Is she sexy? What does she say to herself (the most important thing to her belief system)? All of this goes into play. When a man tries to explain that his porn, his glances, his general sexual attraction to fleeting images or people is irrelevant and unimportant compared to his "making love" relationship with his partner - yeah, no, she doesn't see it that way. A woman is attracted to a man who treats her like a queen and means it. How her man talks about her to others, if he respects women and takes a stance for women when they are being talked about in a negative way - how he refers to women even off-handedly with the guys ("dude, you run like a girl" for instance, is a negative statement about women), all these things are noticed and internalized by women partners. If a man speaks in disrespectful ways about women - his own woman is going to feel put down...whether you think she SHOULD or not ("I was just kidding - can't you take a joke?").
> 
> As for women (or men) who have a traumatic sexual past - if that is something that a man doesn't want to deal with, then, yes, he should leave her alone, just walk away. The damage done from CSA or other types of sexual abuse is only for certain personalities of people. The recovery is possible but it's a lifelong process that will never be "normal" - whatever that looks like. If a man is, like, "Dude, you don't need that kind of negativity in your life", then he's the wrong partner for that woman. He will never *get it* and will just make things worse for her.
> 
> I've spent many years studying how men tick sexually because it's important to me that my partner is happy and satisfied. I don't see that men take as much interest in women's sexuality. Overall in society right now, women are still the butt of all sorts of gender jokes and it's consider "being a *****, wimp, weak" if a man does anything that is widely more associated with women behavior. He shouldn't cry, express emotions, be gentle, be compassionate, ask for gentleness, ask for compassion - or talk about his problems. "Don't be a girl."
> 
> Mostly what I hear is the complaint about frequency, as if that's a measuring stick for success. A woman who is putting so much into having a quality sex life is not going to react by generating more frequency when her efforts at quality are dismissed in favor of more frequency.
> 
> Add to all of this that the behaviors that are applauded in men are sources of shame for women. Utterly, utterly baffling. A guy who has sex "scores" and a woman who has sex is a "sl*t" - and so on and so forth - you know all the catchphrases. A woman is supposed to keep her panties on until she's married ideally - but, if not, there shouldn't be too many or she's "loose" and not worthy of being a longterm partner. Once she's married, her husband is supposed to be the best she's ever had and she's always supposed to love whatever he does whenever and however he wants to do it. She DOES have an orgasm during doggie sex...right???? Well, if she doesn't, she's supposed to at least say that she did.
> 
> Now, in none of this am I talking about cruel, vicious women who are mental cases using sex as a weapon. Frankly, those people are (thankfully) rare. Much more rare than TAM somehow would like us to believe.
> 
> Men who take a genuine interest and are open to learning and embracing and understanding of feminine sexuality are not wimps. They are men who have put on a new pair of glasses - having had some a-ha or doh moments seeing sex from their partner's point of view. Thus, these are the men having great sex with their partners.


I'm reasonably sure there are a few men on this site who get all that both intellectually and intuitively, and act accordingly... not out of expectation of a desired response but purely out of a desire to be the best partner possible and because their wife's happiness is their greatest source of joy in life....

... and they do not end up living the life you describe in your last paragraph.


----------



## notmyjamie

Buddy400 said:


> Let's say that women had a problem with men not being as romantic and caring as they used to be. He used to take them out and listened intently to what she had to say. Now, he just sits around watching sports on TV drinking beer and grunting.
> 
> Let's say a man said "you just don't understand men, if you want them to be be romantic and attentive, you have to have sex with them all the time including lots of NSA blowjobs."
> 
> Would women just say, "well that's what you have to do to get him to behave the way you want? If you're not willing to do what they need to be attentive and romantic, what can you expect?"


It's not quite the same, but my mother's marital advice usually included her reminding women that "men have needs and if you're not prepared to meet them, all those niceties men do for you will go away" so she most definitely would have said your quote!! I agree with her, but I'd add that both partners need to take care of each other's needs in order for the marriage to be fulfilling.

This thread is killing me to read and participate in. I'm divorcing my husband after 6 years of an essentially sexless marriage. Some of you guys would kill for your wife to have my libido and interest in sex. And he would like nothing better than for me to never need or think about sex again. Irony is a *****.


----------



## HDC

I have a problem with the thinking that if a man will do A,B,C,D,E, then his wife will do F. That doesn’t sound like a fair relationship, it sounds quite miserable. It just flat wouldn’t be worth the effort to me.....there I said it.


----------



## BioFury

happiness27 said:


> Women and men approach sex differently. One of the sticking points for women is that, in general, men do not understand women's sex drive and for many, if not most women, they do not feel that men have much interest in how she works sexually.
> 
> There are at least a couple of men on TAM who have figured this out - had "a-ha" moments - and adjusted their thinking, their understanding and their behavior to achieve a compatible sexual relationship.
> 
> It's a lot of work - and I do get from reading the comments that men tend to view women with that My Fair Lady stance: "Why can't a woman...be more like a man?"
> 
> Well, we're not.
> 
> Women have a much broader sexual experience that men would absolutely love if somehow the benefit of stepping into the realm of the female sexual experience was something they were willing to allow themselves to do.
> 
> Men can have a thought about sex - and be ready. This rarely happens for a multi-tasking feminine brain. A woman must unlatch herself from her multi-tasking brain and focus only on sex. This does not happen naturally for a woman. Men who become aware of how their specific woman works sexually will have a much improved sex life.
> 
> Men appear to measure their sex life in terms of frequency. Women measure their sex life in terms of quality.
> 
> From the posts, there is this apparent association that men have with the frequency of sex and their self esteem. Projecting that insecurity onto their sex partner (she must not love me, she must not find me attractive), which is out of left field thinking for women.
> 
> Men who who project lovingness, flirtation without expectation, seduction from a distance (I could write a book about how to do this) and drop the idea that frequency equals "great sex life" - will find a lot of fullfillment with their partner.
> 
> Women need to feel safe in order to have a strong sexual desire. The threat of being abandoned if they don't have sex everyday or several times a week does not make a woman feel safe. It puts her in a position of have "fear sex" so she won't be abandoned.
> 
> What makes sex great for a woman is often overlooked by men. Women know that men want to "get to the good stuff" as quickly as possible, whereas a woman gets a lot of pleasure from all kinds of things that men find mundane, even making fun of "she wants conversation."
> 
> Women are self-conscious about themselves - a lot of which is reinforced societally. Is she pretty? Is she sexy? What does she say to herself (the most important thing to her belief system)? All of this goes into play. When a man tries to explain that his porn, his glances, his general sexual attraction to fleeting images or people is irrelevant and unimportant compared to his "making love" relationship with his partner - yeah, no, she doesn't see it that way. A woman is attracted to a man who treats her like a queen and means it. How her man talks about her to others, if he respects women and takes a stance for women when they are being talked about in a negative way - how he refers to women even off-handedly with the guys ("dude, you run like a girl" for instance, is a negative statement about women), all these things are noticed and internalized by women partners. If a man speaks in disrespectful ways about women - his own woman is going to feel put down...whether you think she SHOULD or not ("I was just kidding - can't you take a joke?").
> 
> Mostly what I hear is the complaint about frequency, as if that's a measuring stick for success. A woman who is putting so much into having a quality sex life is not going to react by generating more frequency when her efforts at quality are dismissed in favor of more frequency.
> 
> Men who take a genuine interest and are open to learning and embracing and understanding of feminine sexuality are not wimps. They are men who have put on a new pair of glasses - having had some a-ha or doh moments seeing sex from their partner's point of view. Thus, these are the men having great sex with their partners.


Great post.

I think men struggle with finding the balance. Women are drawn to the soft, and hard, parts of a man's personality. They want him to be kind, but also aggressive. They want him to be gentle, but also bend them over the couch. They want him to cry and be expressive, but also want him to be strong and unyielding.

For sure, this balance can be struck. It isn't that difficult. But the back and forth, women asking for one, and then the other, can leave men confused about which women really want. When they want both in harmony. A way to put it in man-terms, is ask whether he'd like his wife to be smart, funny, & responsible. Or, a minx with a gorgeously sculpted butt. His answer? Both!

With regard to quantity over quality... Sex is like food, or oxygen to men. It doesn't matter how delicious the food, or how pure the oxygen, if it's only served every two weeks.


----------



## FeministInPink

Buddy400 said:


> So, if you understand women and try hard enough to do what they require to want sex, men can continue having sex with them.
> 
> 
> 
> What's an equivalent situation where women have to understand men enough and try hard enough to get them to behave as they used to?
> 
> 
> 
> Let's say a husband isn't as romantic as he used to be. What is the woman doing wrong that is making him be less romantic?


I think that would probably be better answered by a man, rather than me. 

All I know is in my most recent relationship, my then-boyfriend was a walking example of Happiness27's theory. He did all the things she talked about. Part of it was just who he was and his general mentality. He understood that it's better to consistently stoke the fire rather than start cold and build it from scratch when he wanted to heat things up. 

For my part, I made it clear from the beginning that I would never refuse him (with the obvious exception of extenuating circumstances), and I also stoked the fire in whatever way that I could. I focused on speaking his love languages, which were words of affirmation and acts of service. I also made sure that his sexual needs were met. That played a really big part, and was just as important as the love languages.

They say men need sex to feel loved, and that women need to feel loved to have sex. I think this is a broad generalization, but there is still a lot of truth to it.

And really... if you really love a woman, and she really loves you, why wouldn't you want to treat her as well as Happiness27 suggests? Because everything that Happiness27 describes isn't actually about getting her to have sex with him. That's going to be the end result, but that's not the point. The point is showing her that you love her, that you value her, that you desire her, that you want to protect her. A quality woman who gets that from her man will give it back in spades. It's reciprocity. A healthy relationship is naturally symbiotic.

And really, what Happiness27 is talking about isn't that difficult or burdensome. It actually doesn't take that much effort. A lot of it is little stuff, little things that add up to a big payoff.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Married

notmyjamie said:


> It's not quite the same, but my mother's marital advice usually included her reminding women that "men have needs and if you're not prepared to meet them, all those niceties men do for you will go away" so she most definitely would have said your quote!! I agree with her, but I'd add that both partners need to take care of each other's needs in order for the marriage to be fulfilling.
> 
> This thread is killing me to read and participate in. I'm divorcing my husband after 6 years of an essentially sexless marriage. Some of you guys would kill for your wife to have my libido and interest in sex. And he would like nothing better than for me to never need or think about sex again. Irony is a *****.



I bet your inbox is full .....LOL >>>>


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## notmyjamie

Mr.Married said:


> I bet your inbox is full .....LOL >>>>


Nope. Maybe if this wasn't a marriage board it would be LOL


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## ConanHub

notmyjamie said:


> It's not quite the same, but my mother's marital advice usually included her reminding women that "men have needs and if you're not prepared to meet them, all those niceties men do for you will go away" so she most definitely would have said your quote!! I agree with her, but I'd add that both partners need to take care of each other's needs in order for the marriage to be fulfilling.
> 
> This thread is killing me to read and participate in. I'm divorcing my husband after 6 years of an essentially sexless marriage. Some of you guys would kill for your wife to have my libido and interest in sex. And he would like nothing better than for me to never need or think about sex again. Irony is a *****.


Really sorry to hear about your situation.

I knew a young lady who divorced her husband after about a year of putting up with him not putting out.


----------



## FeministInPink

ConanHub said:


> Really sorry to hear about your situation.
> 
> 
> 
> I knew a young lady who divorced her husband after about a year of putting up with him not putting out.


I divorced mine after several years of him not putting out. I tried everything with him, and nothing worked. That wasn't the only reason, and the lack of sex was related to a lot of the other problems... by the time it finally got through his thick head that he needed to actually make an effort at our relationship, it was too late. I was already done.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## notmyjamie

FeministInPink said:


> I divorced mine after several years of him not putting out. I tried everything with him, and nothing worked. That wasn't the only reason, and the lack of sex was related to a lot of the other problems... by the time it finally got through his thick head that he needed to actually make an effort at our relationship, it was too late. I was already done.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Yup, and as the saying goes, when a woman is done, she's done.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

It's many a man's dream to be married to a woman who would divorce him for lack of sex.


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## notmyjamie

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's many a man's dream to be married to a woman who would divorce him for lack of sex.


Yup...like I said, irony is a *****. My neighbor complains to me constantly that his wife never wants sex. In fact, his wife and my husband will frequently stay up super late if we are all hanging out on an evening so that they don't have to put out. Seriously, they'll finally come to bed at like 4am. So I'm not getting any and he's not getting any. My sister always says "you guys should just trade spouses and everyone would be much happier" :laugh: If only it were that easy.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

notmyjamie said:


> Yup...like I said, irony is a *****. My neighbor complains to me constantly that his wife never wants sex. In fact, his wife and my husband will frequently stay up super late if we are all hanging out on an evening so that they don't have to put out. Seriously, they'll finally come to bed at like 4am. So I'm not getting any and he's not getting any. My sister always says "you guys should just trade spouses and everyone would be much happier" :laugh: If only it were that easy.


An oft repeated lament on TAM. 

It seems opposites often do attract.... sexual opposites. Unfortunately, this is not an area where it behooves us to have complimentary rather than similar desires.


----------



## FeministInPink

notmyjamie said:


> Yup, and as the saying goes, when a woman is done, she's done.


And the thing is, I stayed far longer than I should have, out of guilt and his making me feel like *I* was the problem. I should have walked away much earlier.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## uhtred

But there are relationships where its the woman that is HD and its the man who is constantly feeling pressured. More common than you might think since there is a broad assumption that men always want sex. 




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's many a man's dream to be married to a woman who would divorce him for lack of sex.


----------



## uhtred

I think there are so many different situations where a couple has issues with their sex life that it is difficult to come to any generalizations. There are some situations that are more common than others, but they are still so far from universal that they don't really provide much guidance. 

There are women who bait and switch, and never intended to have sex after they got pregnant But there are also men who do that. 

There are men who ignore their wives needs / desires for romance - but there are women who do that as well 

Some men are terrible selfish lovers, so are some women. 

Some women let themselves go completely after marriage, but so do some men.


----------



## happiness27

CynthiaDe said:


> This is not necessarily true. If a person is otherwise attractive to his/her spouse, but is doing something that is creating a problem, that should be resolved. Not all attraction is so black and white. Say a woman wants her husband to shower in the evening, because his scent after a day of work is too much for her, if he showers she sees him as irresistible. Sometimes it's that simple.


Oh, gad...are there people who don't shower after a long day - and then expect sex???? Yikes. But, yeah, this is an easy conversation, isn't it? "Hey, babe, I really like clean and fresh before sex" and the partner is, like: "!!!!!! NO PROBLEM!!!!!" 

LOL - I have to tell the story of a couple of decades ago when we used to have a TV in our bedroom and my husband came to bed with a bag of Cheetos. I was, like, "Oh, wow, are you really?" and he stopped mid-chomp and took them back to the kitchen. I have a very strong sense of smell and I would have been smelling Cheetos in that bedroom for days afterwards. 

We still laugh about that.


----------



## happiness27

.


----------



## happiness27

The only problem I'm having with this is when you make it sound like you are doing her a favor by "doing all those things for women" and then "it's only right to expect" that a guy can get a BJ without all the hassle. 

Hassle? 

Can you hear what that feels like for a woman to hear that a guy feels like doing "all those things for women all the time" is a hassle and that her putting his **** in her mouth is something he deserves for going to the hassle of making love in a way that excites HER? 

I think women *hope* that the exciting things that she enjoys are also exciting for her partner. What about mutually enjoyable sex where oral is a part of that? 

I just don't know if porn has somehow conditioned men into thinking that they are entitled to BJ, doggie and whatever else he wants from a partner like he is watching on the porn channels WHERE THE ACTORS ARE GETTING PAID TO PERFORM and it's not reality - not mutually exciting sex. Most porn is for the benefit of male arousal and perpetuates the myth that women enjoy subservient sexual acts and positions. I'm here to tell you that if a clit isn't getting stimulated, a woman ain't cumming. Try stabbing your d*ck at the air without touching it to get an idea how it feels for a woman to get doggie. 

Are you interested in knowing what this feels like to a woman? And, please hear this: It has NOTHING to do with your self-esteem. It has to do with incorrect male conditioning and the information that gets passed around. FACT: Women love sex but they approach and practice sex differently.

In my research of trying to understand how different women approach sex, I once watched a video that was a compilation of dozens of women masterbating. ALL OF THEM masterbated by stimulating their clitorises. NONE of them had orgasms by shoving a dildo in their vagina from the back or front WITHOUT stimulation to their clitoris. NONE. And NONE of them attempted to have an orgasm by putting a dildo in their mouth and waving their unstimulated clitoris in the air. 

If any man reads this ^^^^^ and takes offense, let me bring you back down to earth. This information isn't about YOU. It's intended to INFORM you of the reality of sex for women. If it's a hassle to think about or causes you to sigh with how monumental is the task to have to *deal with* her sexuality approach or do anything about it, honestly, sex with women is going to be something you'll complain about and be unhappy about. 

Again, the clarifier: there are people who use sex as a weapon and this should never be condoned. Not even talking about people who do that. Just talking about - saying outloud and as clearly as possible - women love sex, they experience it differently than men and tend to be more excited about having sex with men who don't consider it a hassle - but actually embrace - the various ways that women experience exciting sex.

Not being a guy, I'm baffled where the idea originated that it would be okay for a non-prostitute to just give a guy a "no-hassle BJ" - seriously, will a lightbulb moment ever happen? Do you have a clue what it means to have a person squirt cum in your mouth and then walk away saying "Thanks, babe, you're the best...what's for lunch?"


----------



## happiness27

BluesPower said:


> Guys, I, in some ways, hate to admit this, but H27 does have a handle on women's sexuality.
> 
> I am not saying that I think all of it is right, or that I wish somethings were not different.
> 
> But there is a very small cross section of women where this is not the way that it works, and as much as some of it sucks, it is the way that it works.
> 
> Some of us guys that just fell into this, H27's view or whatever, that have had success with women and sex STILL THINK some of this sucks, but it is correct in so many ways.
> 
> Sometimes this, somewhat realistic view of sex, makes me NOT feel so bad for the BAD things I have done. I don't know if anyone can understand what that means.
> 
> But for H27 and others, How fair is this? Is it any wonder that some men choose to just screw over women for sex all the time. That we may never want to get into a REAL marriage or relationship because of all the hoops that we have to jump through to keep you girls happy.
> 
> Here is the other side, and now I think I will sound like a girl in some ways. I could have just kept screwing women that wanted to be screwed. The sex was OK, there was plenty of it, with a variety of woman, some of it was really good if not great. So, I could just continue catting around, getting laid by whoever. And to an extent, that was OK, I could still be doing that.
> 
> But I wanted more, for what ever reason, and I met GF. She bewitched me with her looks, her whole being, and she made me love her.
> 
> It is all her fault. But once she had me hooked, I had to continue to play all the seduction games that I was playing already, and then I fell in love. And everything was wonderful and ****ty at the same time.
> 
> See, some of us learned to play the "women's sexuality game", and some of us are good at it, and in some way it sill sucks, but then again sometimes it does not...
> 
> For example:
> 
> Why do the men have to "always" be the suductor? Why is it that we have to seduce from across the room. Why is that?
> 
> Why do we have to continually be the stud... the dominant sexual partner...Why is that?
> 
> We have to look good, perform at a high level, reaffirm their beauty and desirability, their emotional needs... and on and on.
> 
> Yeah, I know how to do it, I am good at it, but you know what, sometimes I just want a blow job without any other BS involved.
> 
> In some ways, it is easier to just screw random woman, but then... You make us fall in love with you...Somehow it is just not fair...
> 
> Now, I had a couple at lunch so who really knows if this post is at all coherent????


Where did you find that couple that you had at lunch?


----------



## happiness27

HDC said:


> You know what a person should need to do to have their spouse sexually attracted to them?
> Just be themselves.... that simple, nothing more, nothing less. You shouldn’t have to jump through hoops, stack greasy BB’s or stand on one leg and recite the alphabet. If you’re not sexually attracted to your spouse, why are they your spouse?



In an ideal world, yes.

But are you going back to that "why can't a woman be more like a man?"

Believe me, I've listened to my husband's viewpoint on this over and over with extreme interest. I remember a line out of movie once where the guy said to a woman: "You know what a woman has to do to turn a man on? Show up."

It's not like that for women. It's just not. 

Do I see my husband naked and think he's hot. Yes.

But etched and scarred in my back from years of training on "how to be a good woman" is a thick volume of rules that women:

1.) Don't have sex before marriage
2.) Zero information about female sexual anatomy (vulva, clitoris, lubricating fluids, etc. - oh, gad, YUK!)
3.) Pubic hair is ugly
4.) Fellatio (uh...what?)
5.) Have sex with your husband or he will leave you
6.) Have sex with your husband or he won't provide for you
7.) Have sex with your husband so he doesn't "have to go elsewhere" for sex
8.) Have sex with your husband so he doesn't look at other women or obsess with porn
9.) Do whatever kind of sex your husband wants and don't complain even if it's something you don't like
10.) Wear uncomfortable clothes so your husband will be sexually attracted to you
11.) Have sex when you're pregnant even if you don't want to
12.) Being pregnant is ugly and unattractive sexually to your husband
13.) Having babies ruins your body so your husband won't want you
14.) Better have vaginal rejuvenation surgery in case your genitals aren't attractive enough
15.) Shave or get rid of your pubes because they are ugly
16.) Act like you are really enjoy any kind of sex so your husband feels good about himself
17.) Never ask your husband for anything that would increase excitement for you during foreplay because it will hurt his feelings and make him doubt that he is already a great lover.
18.) Don't do anything to cause another man to be attracted to you.
19.) Don't be a sl*t 
20.) Have sex like a porn star with your husband.

Women just don't have PERMISSION and the messages are just everywhere and constant. 

Guys - be her champion and realize that if you are with her that you ARE her champion. She's watching you, she's listening to you. Stand up for her and stand up for women.


----------



## notmyjamie

happiness27 said:


> The only problem I'm having with this is when you make it sound like you are doing her a favor by "doing all those things for women" and then "it's only right to expect" that a guy can get a BJ without all the hassle.
> 
> Hassle?
> 
> *Probably a poor choice of words. Haven't you ever wanted a quickie? A quick orgasm without all the foreplay, etc? I don't think it's such a bad thing for men to want to skip foreplay every once in a while as long as your overall sexual relationship is loving and satisfying to both partners. *
> 
> Can you hear what that feels like for a woman to hear that a guy feels like doing "all those things for women all the time" is a hassle and that her putting his **** in her mouth is something he deserves for going to the hassle of making love in a way that excites HER?
> 
> I think women *hope* that the exciting things that she enjoys are also exciting for her partner. What about mutually enjoyable sex where oral is a part of that?
> 
> 
> *Of course every couple should be having enjoyable sex for both of them. I also feel like if my partner wants a quickie bj and he has done many good things for me in our relationship (both sexual and non sexual) it's not such a hardship for me to provide that for him sometimes.*
> 
> 
> I'm here to tell you that if a clit isn't getting stimulated, a woman ain't cumming. Try stabbing your d*ck at the air without touching it to get an idea how it feels for a woman to get doggie.
> 
> *For most women direct clitoral stimulation is a must during sex or no orgasm will happen. There are some women who don't need that. But, there are ways to provide that during "doggie style" and many women count that as their favorite position. I think this comes down to your partner and whether or not they know how to satisfy you and are willing to put the work in.
> *
> 
> 
> Not being a guy, I'm baffled where the idea originated that it would be okay for a non-prostitute to just give a guy a "no-hassle BJ" - seriously, will a lightbulb moment ever happen? Do you have a clue what it means to have a person squirt cum in your mouth and then walk away saying "Thanks, babe, you're the best...what's for lunch?"


*Maybe I'm alone in this but I have been with men who are down for a quick orgasm for me and don't ask for one for themselves. If a guy is willing to do that for me, why shouldn't I reciprocate? Or, maybe I want my partner to feel good and a bj is a quick way to do that when *I'm* the one not really in the mood for the whole "hassle" myself? I think you think doing this is using a women like a prostitute. If my relationship is in good standing and my partner does unselfish things for me at times, (both sexual and non sexual) I do not feel used by this. Making him happy, makes me happy. Now, if he's a selfish jerk who never does anything nice for me, he won't be getting those quick bj's. Also, if the man's sex drive is higher than the woman's, this is a good, quick way to fill in that gap. Win-Win!!! Lastly, I've NEVER done this for man and had him walk away asking about lunch. Usually, he's feeling so good, he wants to find a way to repay me, sexual or not, usually my choice. It's all about how you look at it.*


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

notmyjamie said:


> Maybe I'm alone in this but I have been with men who are down for a quick orgasm for me and don't ask for one for themselves. If a guy is willing to do that for me, why shouldn't I reciprocate? Or, maybe I want my partner to feel good and a bj is a quick way to do that when *I'm* the one not really in the mood for the whole "hassle" myself? I think you think doing this is using a women like a prostitute. If my relationship is in good standing and my partner does unselfish things for me at times, (both sexual and non sexual) I do not feel used by this. Making him happy, makes me happy. Now, if he's a selfish jerk who never does anything nice for me, he won't be getting those quick bj's. Also, if the man's sex drive is higher than the woman's, this is a good, quick way to fill in that gap. Win-Win!!! Lastly, I've NEVER done this for man and have him walk away asking about lunch. Usually, he's feeling so good, he wants to find a way to repay me, sexual or not, usually my choice. It's all about how you look at it.


Simply and utterly brilliant.

Of course, both partners have to have this attitude for it to be a foundation of a healthy relationship. But when they do, it's an unbeatable combination.


----------



## happiness27

notmyjamie said:


> Maybe I'm alone in this but I have been with men who are down for a quick orgasm for me and don't ask for one for themselves. If a guy is willing to do that for me, why shouldn't I reciprocate? Or, maybe I want my partner to feel good and a bj is a quick way to do that when *I'm* the one not really in the mood for the whole "hassle" myself? I think you think doing this is using a women like a prostitute. If my relationship is in good standing and my partner does unselfish things for me at times, (both sexual and non sexual) I do not feel used by this. Making him happy, makes me happy. Now, if he's a selfish jerk who never does anything nice for me, he won't be getting those quick bj's. Also, if the man's sex drive is higher than the woman's, this is a good, quick way to fill in that gap. Win-Win!!! Lastly, I've NEVER done this for man and have him walk away asking about lunch. Usually, he's feeling so good, he wants to find a way to repay me, sexual or not, usually my choice. It's all about how you look at it.


Your experiences are your experiences and that's great if you have had partners - plural - who have given you a quick orgasm with no thought for having an orgasm for themselves.

What I am saying about a man expecting a quick BJ for "going to all the hassle" - as was exactly expressed in this discussion is telling a woman that her sexuality is a hassle. 

I'm trying to inject some different awareness - that it's not a bad thing for people to examine how they approach sex and just be open about it - to themselves and to their partners. If a couple wants to have transactional sex - you do something for me and I'll do something for you - it's none of my business. If it makes that couple happy and they *get* each other's wants and needs met that way, then that works for them.

I'm not going to repay somebody for sex nor do I want somebody to repay me for something. I've kind of already explored those avenues. I prefer having sex because I want to and prefer to feel like I am choosing to do so. As a CSA survivor, it was a really important psychological thing for me. Just being able to say no and stop saying yes because I felt like I had to - and thank god my husband totally gets that. As a result, I actually get to enjoy sex, I get to do what I really want to do and have real orgasms instead of fake ones. I don't have to do something just to make someone else feel good, because they did some task or activity for me or so they won't leave me. It's a good feeling to be loved for being a genuine lover. Just the fact that I know I can say no if I want to without my spouse guilting me about it, was a major hurdle in allowing me to become a free sexual being with my partner.


----------



## notmyjamie

happiness27 said:


> What I am saying about a man expecting a quick BJ for "going to all the hassle" - as was exactly expressed in this discussion is telling a woman that her sexuality is a hassle.
> *
> I don't think that's what he was trying to imply but I can see how it could be taken that way.*
> 
> I'm trying to inject some different awareness - that it's not a bad thing for people to examine how they approach sex and just be open about it - to themselves and to their partners. If a couple wants to have transactional sex - you do something for me and I'll do something for you - it's none of my business. If it makes that couple happy and they *get* each other's wants and needs met that way, then that works for them.
> 
> *I don't see it as transactional sex. I certainly don't keep score "now it's my turn" and I know my partners didn't either. It just came naturally within our relationship, it was fun and spontaneous. *
> 
> I'm not going to repay somebody for sex nor do I want somebody to repay me for something. I've kind of already explored those avenues. I prefer having sex because I want to and prefer to feel like I am choosing to do so. As a CSA survivor, it was a really important psychological thing for me. Just being able to say no and stop saying yes because I felt like I had to - and thank god my husband totally gets that. As a result, I actually get to enjoy sex, I get to do what I really want to do and have real orgasms instead of fake ones. I don't have to do something just to make someone else feel good, because they did some task or activity for me or so they won't leave me. It's a good feeling to be loved for being a genuine lover. Just the fact that I know I can say no if I want to without my spouse guilting me about it, was a major hurdle in allowing me to become a free sexual being with my partner.



*I also never saw it as "repaying" someone for sex. And when I did this, I wanted to do it. Believe me, if I wasn't up to the task, I would have said no, and sometimes I did. Sometimes I was the one to initiate it. I never felt guilted into it and I could say no whenever I wanted and neither of my partners would give me a hard time about it.

I hope I can say this with much respect and compassion but I think your past experiences might have some effect on how you are viewing this as opposed to how I view it. I don't see it as something I had to do but rather something I shared with each of the 2 men when I was seeing them. Because they were kind, loving and generous with me (in many different ways) this was something that felt natural to me as a part of our relationship and was not the only thing I ever did for them. For example, one of my partners LOVED a certain recipe so I would make it a lot because I knew it made him happy. To me, the two things were the same. I suspect that you don't view sex that way and not having been through what you did, I can't put myself in your shoes or even pretend to understand. 

I'm truly glad that you have found someone you can have a fulfilling sex life with, it can make all the difference in your life. I, too, had a very fulfilling sex life with each of these partners. In the end, that's what is most important. Just because mine is a little different than yours doesn't mean one way is right and one way is wrong. How lucky is the person who finds someone who is looking for the same thing that they are looking for in a relationship.
*


----------



## Mr. Nail

If this is what it means to be in a relationship with a woman.......page after page of griping, accusations and insults.....
Why bother. 
D I Y castration is less painful.


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## notmyjamie

Mr. Nail said:


> If this is what it means to be in a relationship with a woman.......page after page of griping, accusations and insults.....
> Why bother.
> D I Y castration is less painful.



Not every woman feels that way. Just like not all men are inconsiderate bastards. You really can't paint everyone with the same brush. Keep hope alive!!!!


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## happiness27

notmyjamie said:


> *I also never saw it as "repaying" someone for sex. And when I did this, I wanted to do it. Believe me, if I wasn't up to the task, I would have said no, and sometimes I did. Sometimes I was the one to initiate it. I never felt guilted into it and I could say no whenever I wanted and neither of my partners would give me a hard time about it.
> 
> I hope I can say this with much respect and compassion but I think your past experiences might have some effect on how you are viewing this as opposed to how I view it. I don't see it as something I had to do but rather something I shared with each of the 2 men when I was seeing them. Because they were kind, loving and generous with me (in many different ways) this was something that felt natural to me as a part of our relationship and was not the only thing I ever did for them. For example, one of my partners LOVED a certain recipe so I would make it a lot because I knew it made him happy. To me, the two things were the same. I suspect that you don't view sex that way and not having been through what you did, I can't put myself in your shoes or even pretend to understand.
> 
> I'm truly glad that you have found someone you can have a fulfilling sex life with, it can make all the difference in your life. I, too, had a very fulfilling sex life with each of these partners. In the end, that's what is most important. Just because mine is a little different than yours doesn't mean one way is right and one way is wrong. How lucky is the person who finds someone who is looking for the same thing that they are looking for in a relationship.
> *


If a woman wants to perform fellatio on a man with no reciprocation, and it's her decision, then absolutely, go forth.

What I was responding to on this thread was the implication by the men that a woman *should* perform a BJ. NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO EVER DO ANYTHING. Sex is always a freely given choice - always. 

When men get together with other men face to face and gossip about what they aren't getting sexually, to me, they've broken two trust issues - one, they have broken the trust issue of discretion and two, they have broken the trust issue of consent. Guilting a woman - pouting, complaining, name-calling - into owing him a BJ once in awhile - whatever frequency that means - is not consent. It's guilting - she "owes" you. Nobody owes anybody anything sexually. Sex is mutual activity. It's not a transaction - you washed the car, mowed the lawn, paid the bills, refinished the deck, "now you owe me" - sex. That's mixing things up that aren't related. 

The bottom line is that both people need to have an enthusiastic agreement about sex and make sure there is a full understanding of what it takes for mutual enjoyment with that partner. If these enjoyments change over the years or even from time to time, being flexible, enthusiastic and positive really makes for a terrific sex life.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

happiness27 said:


> If a woman wants to perform fellatio on a man with no reciprocation, and it's her decision, then absolutely, go forth.
> 
> What I was responding to on this thread was the implication by the men that a woman *should* perform a BJ. NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO EVER DO ANYTHING. Sex is always a freely given choice - always.
> 
> When men get together with other men face to face and gossip about what they aren't getting sexually, to me, they've broken two trust issues - one, they have broken the trust issue of discretion and two, they have broken the trust issue of consent. Guilting a woman - pouting, complaining, name-calling - into owing him a BJ once in awhile - whatever frequency that means - is not consent. It's guilting - she "owes" you. Nobody owes anybody anything sexually. Sex is mutual activity. It's not a transaction - you washed the car, mowed the lawn, paid the bills, refinished the deck, "now you owe me" - sex. That's mixing things up that aren't related.
> 
> The bottom line is that both people need to have an enthusiastic agreement about sex and make sure there is a full understanding of what it takes for mutual enjoyment with that partner. If these enjoyments change over the years or even from time to time, being flexible, enthusiastic and positive really makes for a terrific sex life.


While I agree with the general thrust of your post, I believe you've mischaracterizes a few things, especially the issue of consent. 

Let me start by saying I personally would never seek to guilt or pout my wife into sexual performance. If she doesn't already want to do it as a natural part of our union, then I don't want it. 

That said, guilting or pouting does not deny a spouse agency over her actions or her body any more than withholding sex denies a man control over his wallet.


Dictionary.comThesaurus.com
Dictionary.com
Thesaurus.com

Search
consent


consent[kuh n-sent]
EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGIN
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR consent ON THESAURUS.COM
verb (used without object)
to permit, approve, or agree; *comply or yield *(often followed by to or an infinitive)

Ex:
Well, let him become a doctor, and I will consent to the marriage

_(hmmm, sounds like she's pressuring him... but he's still able to, by definition, give consent)_

BRITISH DICTIONARY DEFINITIONS FOR CONSENT
consent
verb
to give assent or permission (to do something); agree; accede
(intr) obsolete to be in accord; agree in opinion, feelings, etc
noun
*acquiescence to or acceptance of something done or planned by another; permission*


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## MEM2020

I am not posting as a mod, merely a fellow traveler....

And the post below is a perfect example of why I believe you to be hyper-vigilant towards male misbehavior and unaware or utterly uninterested in its female equivalent. Almost every male misbehavior has a female analog. 

The talking about a lack of sex is a perfect example. Some women like to talk about how they rarely/never have sex with their husbands. This is a type of bragging. The subtext is: I have so totally overpowered my partner that I can get away with not giving them something they really want. 




happiness27 said:


> If a woman wants to perform fellatio on a man with no reciprocation, and it's her decision, then absolutely, go forth.
> 
> What I was responding to on this thread was the implication by the men that a woman *should* perform a BJ. NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO EVER DO ANYTHING. Sex is always a freely given choice - always.
> 
> When men get together with other men face to face and gossip about what they aren't getting sexually, to me, they've broken two trust issues - one, they have broken the trust issue of discretion and two, they have broken the trust issue of consent. Guilting a woman - pouting, complaining, name-calling - into owing him a BJ once in awhile - whatever frequency that means - is not consent. It's guilting - she "owes" you. Nobody owes anybody anything sexually. Sex is mutual activity. It's not a transaction - you washed the car, mowed the lawn, paid the bills, refinished the deck, "now you owe me" - sex. That's mixing things up that aren't related.
> 
> The bottom line is that both people need to have an enthusiastic agreement about sex and make sure there is a full understanding of what it takes for mutual enjoyment with that partner. If these enjoyments change over the years or even from time to time, being flexible, enthusiastic and positive really makes for a terrific sex life.


----------



## notmyjamie

happiness27 said:


> If a woman wants to perform fellatio on a man with no reciprocation, and it's her decision, then absolutely, go forth.
> 
> What I was responding to on this thread was the implication by the men that a woman *should* perform a BJ. NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO EVER DO ANYTHING. Sex is always a freely given choice - always.
> 
> When men get together with other men face to face and gossip about what they aren't getting sexually, to me, they've broken two trust issues - one, they have broken the trust issue of discretion and two, they have broken the trust issue of consent. Guilting a woman - pouting, complaining, name-calling - into owing him a BJ once in awhile - whatever frequency that means - is not consent. It's guilting - she "owes" you. Nobody owes anybody anything sexually. Sex is mutual activity. It's not a transaction - you washed the car, mowed the lawn, paid the bills, refinished the deck, "now you owe me" - sex. That's mixing things up that aren't related.
> 
> The bottom line is that both people need to have an enthusiastic agreement about sex and make sure there is a full understanding of what it takes for mutual enjoyment with that partner. If these enjoyments change over the years or even from time to time, being flexible, enthusiastic and positive really makes for a terrific sex life.




I agree with you 100% that nobody should ever have to do something sexually that they do not wish to do. I disagree that a man pouting takes away consent. It's annoying yes, but it doesn't force a woman to perform sexually. If it does, that's a problem with HER and how she reacts to it, not with him. Pouting is an immature form of expressing disappointment. I'm pouting right now that Gronk is retiring but that's not going to force him to continue playing. (extreme silly example I know but still) I also think that when men say a women should do it, they are saying that they want it to be part of their relationship. They don't mean that EVERY SINGLE TIME they ask a women has to drop to her knees and service him. The men here can enlighten me if I'm wrong but I think they are just looking to add this into their relationship overall to enhance their sexual relationship. There is something very alluring to having someone want to give you pleasure without seeking any for themselves other than the knowledge that they've pleased you. 

I also don't think men walk around thinking that every time they wash the car (or whatever they do) they're earning themselves a blowjob. (again, the men here can enlighten me if I'm wrong) It's more about "if I'm giving my all in this relationship and making my partner happy, it is a reasonable expectation that my partner will also want to give her all and make me happy" and bj's are just one way a women can make a man happy. Some women choose other ways to make their men happy because fellatio makes them uncomfortable and that's okay. You seem fixated on this like it's a one for one thing and I agree with you that that would not be a healthy relationship. But, there are relationships where this happens BECAUSE it's a healthy relationship. If a man pouts and whines when he doesn't get what he wants, he's probably not mature enough to be in a truly healthy relationship. And he probably does it about way more than just sex.

ETA: I also agree with you that men are sometimes their own worst enemies in what they'll discuss with other men about their partners. Again, if my partner complains to all his friends about me sexually, we're not in a healthy relationship, especially if he hasn't talked to me first to try and resolve the issues. I haven't been with anyone who has done that to me, that I know of anyway.


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyjamie said:


> I also don't think men walk around thinking that every time they wash the car they're earning themselves a blowjob. (the men here can enlighten me if I'm wrong) *It's more about "if I'm giving my all in this relationship and making my partner happy, it is a reasonable expectation that my partner will also want to give her all and make me happy" and bj's are just one way a women can make a man happy.* Some women choose other ways to make their men happy because fellatio makes them uncomfortable and that's okay. .


I do think there are some guys that do believe that every time they do something "for their wife", it should be repaid via a sexual favor, but I don't believe this is the norm. The bolded (at least for me) is spot on. I think as well, it is important to understand your SOs love language (and not do things based your YOUR love language as it may be entirely different). I know that if my W has a long/rough day, the way to make her feel better or happy starts with listening to her, letting her vent. However, if I have a long/rough day, I have no interest in talking it out or venting, does nothing for. What would make me feel better or happy in a situation like this is for my W to take care of me sexually. If I try to take how I want to be treated and apply to my W, it won't work all that well (and vice versa with my W trying to apply her needs to me).


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## CharlieParker

notmyjamie said:


> I also don't think men walk around thinking that every time they wash the car they're earning themselves a blowjob.


If that were the case our cars would always be clean  But seriously, the idea of trading chores for sex is just wrong and kinda icky. 

Sure I like a BJ even if she doesn't want anything in return at the moment, but the other way around is nice too.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

HDC said:


> I have a problem with the thinking that if a man will do A,B,C,D,E, then his wife will do F. That doesn’t sound like a fair relationship, it sounds quite miserable. It just flat wouldn’t be worth the effort to me.....there I said it.


It depends what you (one) considers thangs that are A, B, C, D, etc.

In my mind, and I'm not alone, and this recap has been proven true, functional, fruitful.

My A, B, C, things that I do and believe keep me ok with expecting regular sex are things I do anyway. 

I demand sex, but I respond to demands, we have very frequent great sex, things aren't all one sided. I'm not (always) a brute (humor).

Have your career and go and career in place, work them hard daily. But work to live, don't live to work. Can be hard to balance.

Pay for your own life and any toys you may want.

*Have good taste in people, goals, things.

Love kids, love animals.

Value and love the people in your life. Show them all the time.

Be responsible for your actions; successes, failures, adventures, major and minor screw ups.

Sometimes impulsive sh$$! happens, always be prepared in case things really go amiss.

Be helpful to others. Financial, emotionally, and physically.

Be aware you don't really run the world; you can't control everyone. Let others make their own mistakes if needed. 

Remember you won't be on this earth forever, you will get older if so blessed.

Take care of your own health. It's a team effort, but it starts with you.

Realize you're not perfect.

Act like your perfect, be prepared to know your limits. 

Reach beyond your limits. 

Enjoy life. Take vacations. Take others with you. Go by yourself if want.

Be trustworthy. Trust others.

Buy your own clothes. Don't be afraid to buy quality. You're worth it.

Spend money as desired. Save money as desired. 

Teach others. Learn from others.

Exercise. Get out. Me, that's hunt, fish, build stuff.

Love the female form. I mean really appreciate the look, smell, touch.

Love the female mind. Know a woman is the sum of many things. That's the beauty of a woman. 

Don't live in fear. Be prepared cause sh$!t happens but plan for it best as can.

Realize life is a journey, only keep good folks, things and habits in your life, best you can.

Don't be afraid to say no.

Don't be afraid to say yes.

End of list. Whew! 😊

But to me anyway, a man does these things anyway, and sex has always been an end result, to be taken when desired. 

So it's not really anything extra. One shouldn't try to "earn" sex, we all know that.


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## uhtred

I think what matters is overall balance - in a broad but general sense. Sex should be like the rest of the relationship - something for mutual fun, but also something that is sometimes just a nice "gift" for the other. Romance exactly the same. Chores, work etc should all in general be shared. 

Its possible to have good relationships where specific things are unbalanced as long as there is overall balance


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## Mr. Nail

The title of this thread is not "bargaining with your SO for sex".
If a woman wants / needs security in a relationship, then she needs to be a loving intimate partner. Nothing less will get her fierce loyalty.
For example Mrs. Nail has thrown away her secure relationship, by refusing intimate conversation. Sure she has replaced it with frequent blow jobs (high quality), but her sense of security is gone. Her husband frequently tells her that he is contemplating divorce. Just this weekend he refused her amorous advance by informing her that he will NOT engage in sex until she puts down the kindle. It's possible that as she drives home from work she wonders if anyone will be there. And her husband doesn't care because he is long since emotionally withdrawn. 

Also there is no Contract of silence implied in consent. See every sit com produced since leave it to beaver.


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## uhtred

I think nomyjamies experiences are not that unusual. I have a standing offer to do sexual things for my wife without reciprocation (though she has only taken me up on it a couple of times). 

Lots of variation in situations though - in my case my wife is very low drive, so we have the bizarre situation where she views sex as mostly a favor for me, but the actual sexual activity is more often focused on her pleasure. (though this has improved in the last few months)

My feeling is that in a good relationship, providing a quick sexual gift to your partner is just a nice fun thing to do and in an ideal case (at least for me), it would be something that happens frequently. 








happiness27 said:


> Your experiences are your experiences and that's great if you have had partners - plural - who have given you a quick orgasm with no thought for having an orgasm for themselves.
> 
> What I am saying about a man expecting a quick BJ for "going to all the hassle" - as was exactly expressed in this discussion is telling a woman that her sexuality is a hassle.
> 
> I'm trying to inject some different awareness - that it's not a bad thing for people to examine how they approach sex and just be open about it - to themselves and to their partners. If a couple wants to have transactional sex - you do something for me and I'll do something for you - it's none of my business. If it makes that couple happy and they *get* each other's wants and needs met that way, then that works for them.
> 
> I'm not going to repay somebody for sex nor do I want somebody to repay me for something. I've kind of already explored those avenues. I prefer having sex because I want to and prefer to feel like I am choosing to do so. As a CSA survivor, it was a really important psychological thing for me. Just being able to say no and stop saying yes because I felt like I had to - and thank god my husband totally gets that. As a result, I actually get to enjoy sex, I get to do what I really want to do and have real orgasms instead of fake ones. I don't have to do something just to make someone else feel good, because they did some task or activity for me or so they won't leave me. It's a good feeling to be loved for being a genuine lover. Just the fact that I know I can say no if I want to without my spouse guilting me about it, was a major hurdle in allowing me to become a free sexual being with my partner.


----------



## farsidejunky

notmyjamie said:


> I don't know if she would, but she shouldn't. Nobody will ever be 100% on anything. If a guy has had a crappy day, he should be able to say "hey babe, I'm beat, I need to lie down or grab a beer and just sit in silence for a bit. Can we talk about this later?"
> 
> But, your comparison doesn't exactly work for me. Listening to your wife drone on about her day is a passive thing. You can sit there and daydream, think about sex, whatever as long as you throw in a few comments here and there. It can be done. A women having sex shouldn't be a passive activity unless you're into starfish. :grin2:
> 
> ETA: Of course, it all comes down to how you're turning down your partner. A women saying "Ugh...the last thing I want right now is sex with you!!!" is not the way to do it. Just like the husband saying "Jesus woman, I really don't want to listen to all your crap right now" is not the way for him to do it. It's all how you present something. In my example above, I'd be sending my partner to the couch to lie down and bringing him that beer and some tylenol. In the the other I'd be walking away in a huff.


A little late on this, but this is akin to duty sex.

I would think engagement is preferred.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

BioFury said:


> Great post.
> 
> I think men struggle with finding the balance. Women are drawn to the soft, and hard, parts of a man's personality. They want him to be kind, but also aggressive. They want him to be gentle, but also bend them over the couch. They want him to cry and be expressive, but also want him to be strong and unyielding.
> 
> For sure, this balance can be struck. It isn't that difficult. But the back and forth, women asking for one, and then the other, can leave men confused about which women really want. When they want both in harmony. A way to put it in man-terms, is ask whether he'd like his wife to be smart, funny, & responsible. Or, a minx with a gorgeously sculpted butt. His answer? Both!
> 
> With regard to quantity over quality... Sex is like food, or oxygen to men. It doesn't matter how delicious the food, or how pure the oxygen, if it's only served every two weeks.


The solution is very simple. 

1. Be willing to be a loving, giving partner.

2. If that fails to net results, be prepared to drop the proverbial thermostat to absolute zero.

3. If that fails to net results, end the charade. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## notmyjamie

happiness27 said:


> Your experiences are your experiences and that's great if you have had partners - plural - who have given you a quick orgasm with no thought for having an orgasm for themselves.


Just reading this thread over and noticed this comment that I missed when I first read it. I'm not sure what you're implying when you say "plural"

Are you saying you can't believe I've been with more than one man who has wanted to do that for me at times? Or that there is something wrong with the fact that I've had more than one partner in my life? Or perhaps, my writing is poor enough that it came across that I had them both at the same time? 

I feel the need to address it either way. I am 51 years old, today as a matter of fact! And I've had 3 partners in my life. I do not proceed to a sexual relationship until I am reasonably sure we're compatible in our desires and attitudes about love, life, and sex. So, if 2 out of 3 of my partners have been as I described, it's because after the first one, I learned better how to choose someone with whom to proceed to a sexual relationship. Can I still get fooled, of course. I'm leaving my husband of 22 years because he was a master at fooling me about something profound about himself, something I can't and won't live with unfortunately.

But, I also believe that my partners wanted to do it for me because I had done it for them which was good role modeling. They could see how pleasing it was to have someone do that for them and so at times, they felt the desire to please me that same way. To be honest, asking for a one shot for myself is something I've never done. It was always initiated by my partner. I enjoyed it because I knew it was something he wanted to do for me (and that's a turn on for sure) but I never felt the need to seek it out.


----------



## notmyjamie

farsidejunky said:


> A little late on this, but this is akin to duty sex.
> 
> I would think engagement is preferred.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk



Absolutely, I was being facetious about listening to your wife and starfishing. Doing something out of duty once in a while is to be expected. Doing it that way all the time is no way for either partner to live.


----------



## farsidejunky

happiness27 said:


> If a woman wants to perform fellatio on a man with no reciprocation, and it's her decision, then absolutely, go forth.
> 
> What I was responding to on this thread was the implication by the men that a woman *should* perform a BJ. NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO EVER DO ANYTHING. Sex is always a freely given choice - always.
> 
> When men get together with other men face to face and gossip about what they aren't getting sexually, to me, they've broken two trust issues - one, they have broken the trust issue of discretion and two, they have broken the trust issue of consent. Guilting a woman - pouting, complaining, name-calling - into owing him a BJ once in awhile - whatever frequency that means - is not consent. It's guilting - she "owes" you. Nobody owes anybody anything sexually. Sex is mutual activity. It's not a transaction - you washed the car, mowed the lawn, paid the bills, refinished the deck, "now you owe me" - sex. That's mixing things up that aren't related.
> 
> The bottom line is that both people need to have an enthusiastic agreement about sex and make sure there is a full understanding of what it takes for mutual enjoyment with that partner. If these enjoyments change over the years or even from time to time, being flexible, enthusiastic and positive really makes for a terrific sex life.


All emotional needs are a freely given choice.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Happy Birthday @notmyjamie !!


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## farsidejunky

I find this whole thing fascinating, having arrived at TAM in a sexless marriage, and recovering to a fulfilling frequency.

My approach is to mostly give selflessly, with some small modicum of reciprocity, having clearly communicated such to my wife (crucial, lest you become a 'Nice Guy').

If she decides to not be giving, I simply stop doing most to all of those loving gracious things (again, clearly communicated to my wife) that are important to her.

She gets to choose the level of service I provide to/for her.

It works amazingly well.

And when she withdraws, I get to focus on some things I love even more intensely.

Win/win.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400

uhtred said:


> I think nomyjamies experiences are not that unusual. I have a standing offer to do sexual things for my wife without reciprocation (though she has only taken me up on it a couple of times).


I have the same standing offer for my wife.

I've repeatedly told her that one of the hottest sexual experiences of our marriage was when she came home one day very aroused and said "do me" (meaning oral). I did just that and purposely avoided trying to get her to reciprocate (I wanted it to be all about her).

Despite that, she rarely asks. I think it's mostly due to a woman's desire having a lot to do with a man's desire for her. 

So it just doesn't doesn't seem to work the same way for women (generally).


----------



## FeministInPink

happiness27 said:


> Oh, gad...are there people who don't shower after a long day - and then expect sex???? Yikes. But, yeah, this is an easy conversation, isn't it? "Hey, babe, I really like clean and fresh before sex" and the partner is, like: "!!!!!! NO PROBLEM!!!!!"
> 
> 
> 
> LOL - I have to tell the story of a couple of decades ago when we used to have a TV in our bedroom and my husband came to bed with a bag of Cheetos. I was, like, "Oh, wow, are you really?" and he stopped mid-chomp and took them back to the kitchen. I have a very strong sense of smell and I would have been smelling Cheetos in that bedroom for days afterwards.
> 
> 
> 
> We still laugh about that.


Oh, yes, people like these do exist, and it can be even worse.

My XH (back when he was still making the effort to have sex with me, before he totally stopped) is a prime example. He was a bartender. He would shower around 3 PM on Saturday before heading to the bar for a 9-hr shift. Anyone who has worked in food service knows that your junk gets STANK after even just a short shift, so imagine after 9 hours! He would get home late, long after I was asleep. Sunday was his day off, and he refused to shower or brush his teeth because "it's my day off and I don't have to." He would spend the entire day ignoring me, and would refuse to go do anything fun or any activity, and would sit on the couch in his underwear all day. Then, when I was going to bed around midnight (had to be up at 7 am to get ready for my 9-5 job), he would come into the bedroom and suggest that we get it on. I'm already in sleep mode, and he's been ignoring me all day, and I'll be sleep deprived tomorrow, which will generally wreck my whole week, but since I'm at the point where I can't even remember the last time we had sex, I say, "Ok, but you need to take a quick shower and brush your teeth first." His response? "I guess we're not having sex, then."

This happened many, many times.

Yes, people like this exist.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

I would like to add one more thing to this discussion.

Irreplaceable is the general gist I get from H27's posts. IOW, treat the female like she is precious... cherished...treasured... irreplaceable.

It is a perfectly reasonable request.

However...

For one to be irreplaceable, they must actually make sure they are in fact irreplaceable...and the pendulum swings towards BOTH sexes. 



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

If I could change one thing about my wife, it would be her sense of smell. She is very sensitive. Even if I shower, shampoo my hair, brush my teeth, brush my tongue, gargle with mouthwash, and apply a cologne she likes, there is still a significant risk that my odor will offend her. If I had it to do over again, I would marry a woman with a very poor sense of smell.


----------



## Buddy400

happiness27 said:


> The only problem I'm having with this is when you make it sound like you are doing her a favor by "doing all those things for women" and then "it's only right to expect" that a guy can get a BJ without all the hassle.
> 
> Hassle?
> 
> Can you hear what that feels like for a woman to hear that a guy feels like doing "all those things for women all the time" is a hassle and that her putting his **** in her mouth is something he deserves for going to the hassle of making love in a way that excites HER?


If someone said "I'd like a blowjob without having to go to all the "hassle" of making sex enjoyable for my wife, then that is problematic.

If someone said "I'd like a blowjob once in a while when my wife does not feel like having an orgasm or conditions prevent it (such as sneaking away from the kids for 5 minutes). Then I think that's a reasonable expectation (assuming that the woman doesn't find performing oral sex revolting). 



happiness27 said:


> I think women *hope* that the exciting things that she enjoys are also exciting for her partner. What about mutually enjoyable sex where oral is a part of that?


If you think that women "hope" that going to the mall is also exciting for their husband, then those women are naive.



happiness27 said:


> I just don't know if porn has somehow conditioned men into thinking that they are entitled to BJ, doggie and whatever else he wants from a partner like he is watching on the porn channels WHERE THE ACTORS ARE GETTING PAID TO PERFORM and it's not reality - not mutually exciting sex. ..... I'm here to tell you that if a clit isn't getting stimulated, a woman ain't cumming. Try stabbing your d*ck at the air without touching it to get an idea how it feels for a woman to get doggie.


I believe that "doggie" is some women's favorite position, so I'm not sure that you're representing all women here.

Also, while research has shown that only 25% or so of women orgasm from PIV, that's not "no women".



happiness27 said:


> I just don't know if porn has somehow conditioned men into thinking that they are entitled to .....


Again with the "entitled". Sure, lots of guys would like BJ's, doggoe, etc. But I'm not sure why "wanting something" somehow counts as feeling "entitled to it".



happiness27 said:


> Not being a guy, I'm baffled where the idea originated that it would be okay for a non-prostitute to just give a guy a "no-hassle BJ" - seriously, will a lightbulb moment ever happen? Do you have a clue what it means to have a person squirt cum in your mouth and then walk away saying "Thanks, babe, you're the best...what's for lunch?"


Well, my wife is not a prostitute and yet she enjoys giving me non-reciprocal blowjobs.

She says it has something to do with loving me and making me happy.

And that's with me "squirting" cum in her mouth! I do, however, wait a reasonable amount of time before walking away and asking her what's for lunch.

Sure, no women should feel that she's under an obligation to do something sexual for her husband that she does not want to do.

The corollary is that no man should feel that he's under an obligation to continue in a relationship in which his needs are not being met to his satisfaction.


----------



## Buddy400

happiness27 said:


> NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO EVER DO ANYTHING. Sex is always a freely given choice - always.


This is absolutely true.

It's just that it seems to also come with the expectation that the partner is somehow obligated to accept whatever the other partner does (or doesn't) do.


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> Well, my wife is not a prostitute and yet she enjoys giving me non-reciprocal blowjobs.
> 
> She says it has something to do with loving me and making me happy.
> 
> And that's with me "squirting" cum in her mouth! I do, *however, wait a reasonable amount of time before walking away and asking her what's for lunch.*


So you wait 5 minutes before asking her to make you a sandwich??? 

Same boat as you, my W loves giving me BJs (and not with the idea that I have to reciprocate). If anything, I always felt like I HAD TO reciprocate (so to some extent it took something away from the BJ as I was waiting to focus on her, or even if she was still very into it I would cut her off so she could get her turn). One thing I "force" myself to do now is just sit back and enjoy. In most instances, I will reciprocate (especially since many times it is part of foreplay), but if she decided she just wants to give me a BJ than call it a day, there is nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Buddy400

notmyjamie said:


> I agree with you 100% that nobody should ever have to do something sexually that they do not wish to do. I disagree that a man pouting takes away consent. It's annoying yes, but it doesn't force a woman to perform sexually. If it does, that's a problem with HER and how she reacts to it, not with him.


When I first ran across the idea that some women perform sexual acts when they don't really want to because the guy would be "bummed" if she didn't (or because it was somehow "expected" of her) just floored me. I wouldn't have thought that was possible.

The solution, as you note, if for women to stop doing things like that, not to somehow get men not to put women in that position (of course, good men don't put women in that position, so only the bad guys get sex under those conditions).


----------



## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> So you wait 5 minutes before asking her to make you a sandwich???
> 
> Same boat as you, my W loves giving me BJs (and not with the idea that I have to reciprocate). If anything, I always felt like I HAD TO reciprocate (so to some extent it took something away from the BJ as I was waiting to focus on her, or even if she was still very into it I would cut her off so she could get her turn). One thing I "force" myself to do now is just sit back and enjoy. In most instances, I will reciprocate (especially since many times it is part of foreplay), but if she decided she just wants to give me a BJ than call it a day, there is nothing wrong with that.


So, we're two guys who had to learn to force ourselves to relax, enjoy getting a blowjob and not worry about our wife's sexual pleasure.

Not exactly the stereotype!

And yet, I believe it's more common than most think.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Gotta' go away.

Buddy and Ellis are really pissing me off right now. My favorite color may be green, but it doesn't look particularly good on me.


----------



## notmyjamie

Buddy400 said:


> When I first ran across the idea that some women perform sexual acts when they don't really want to because the guy would be "bummed" if she didn't (or because it was somehow "expected" of her) just floored me. I wouldn't have thought that was possible.
> 
> The solution, as you note, if for women to stop doing things like that, not to somehow get men not to put women in that position (of course, good men don't put women in that position, so only the bad guys get sex under those conditions).


I think this is something that needs to be taught in sex education class. I think this culture of the #metoo movement is very important but it focuses solely on the wrongdoings of men and that's just giving young people an incomplete education. Women need to be accountable for their own behaviors. They need to learn that they are in charge of when to have sex and with whom. I have 3 teenage daughters and I work hard to make sure they know three things about sex, how to avoid pregnancy/STD's, how to choose the right partner, and they are in control of their own bodies and their own sexuality. If they are having sex it had better be because they want it, end of story.


----------



## notmyjamie

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Gotta' go away.
> 
> Buddy and Ellis are really pissing me off right now. My favorite color may be green, but it doesn't look particularly good on me.


LOL!!!!!!!!! I hear you, believe me!!!


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Gotta' go away.
> 
> Buddy and Ellis are really pissing me off right now. My favorite color may be green, but it doesn't look particularly good on me.


Sorry.

Really, we're just making all this up.

Right @EllisRedding?


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> Sorry.
> 
> Really, we're just making all this up.
> 
> Right @EllisRedding?


I'm lost, all along I thought we were talking about this place, great deals ...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

EllisRedding said:


> I'm lost, all along I thought we were talking about this place, great deals ...


Always great to get things wholesale. BJs especially best with no middleman!

But I wonder about the quality... oh, wait; there's no such thing as a bad BJ. Never mind.


----------



## uhtred

Also its *fun*. Just driving your partner wild is fun to do - as long as it is part of an overall balanced sexual relationship. 





notmyjamie said:


> But, I also believe that my partners wanted to do it for me because I had done it for them which was good role modeling. They could see how pleasing it was to have someone do that for them and so at times, they felt the desire to please me that same way. To be honest, asking for a one shot for myself is something I've never done. It was always initiated by my partner. I enjoyed it because I knew it was something he wanted to do for me (and that's a turn on for sure) but I never felt the need to seek it out.


----------



## CharlieParker

It's always a good day when the BJ's coupons arrive. (Off topic, I let my membership lapse, letting the UPS man do the schlepping is nice.)

I've been able to reciprocate more by either saying "just give it shot, why not, we're already naked" or scheduling the night before her days off work some just for her time before I go to work.


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## uhtred

I think there is a lot of oversimplification. The "never do something sexual you don't want" is often good advice, but the phrase "don't want" can take on a lot of meanings

Nothing commits someone into having sex, its never "owed", and should never be demanded - but at the same time there can be relationship consequences to not having sex. The other part of "never have sex you don't want" is that you should "never stay in a relationship where you are unhappy with your sex life". 

I think many people but especially young women would benefit from learning how to *enjoy* sex, and how to recognize a good vs selfish partner. 





notmyjamie said:


> I think this is something that needs to be taught in sex education class. I think this culture of the #metoo movement is very important but it focuses solely on the wrongdoings of men and that's just giving young people an incomplete education. Women need to be accountable for their own behaviors. They need to learn that they are in charge of when to have sex and with whom. I have 3 teenage daughters and I work hard to make sure they know three things about sex, how to avoid pregnancy/STD's, how to choose the right partner, and they are in control of their own bodies and their own sexuality. If they are having sex it had better be because they want it, end of story.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

uhtred said:


> I think many people but especially young women would benefit from learning how to *enjoy* sex, and how to recognize a good vs selfish partner.


Even more basic... before learning how to enjoy sex, learning that it's _okay_, even _encouraged_, to enjoy sex. Many benefits to be had there, as well as problems and frustrations for not getting there.


----------



## notmyjamie

uhtred said:


> I think there is a lot of oversimplification. The "never do something sexual you don't want" is often good advice, but the phrase "don't want" can take on a lot of meanings
> 
> Nothing commits someone into having sex, its never "owed", and should never be demanded - but at the same time there can be relationship consequences to not having sex. The other part of "never have sex you don't want" is that you should "never stay in a relationship where you are unhappy with your sex life".
> 
> I think many people but especially young women would benefit from learning how to *enjoy* sex, and how to recognize a good vs selfish partner.


Absolutely. And the truth is that I have had sex sometimes when I didn't technically "want" sex at that moment. But what I did want was to please my partner because I enjoy pleasing my partner not because it was expected of me or because he pouted or whined if I didn't but because it brings me joy to please him. 

There are lots of other nuances to this conversation as well. Do I have to do every sexual thing my partner wants? Nope. I'm allowed to have some hard no's just like he is. I do try to be as accommodating as my comfort level allows. 

I eventually work these types of issues into my conversations with my girls. My oldest is now college age and she is in a stable, loving, exclusive relationship so we talk more about this kind of stuff now. (as much as I can without ever talking about my own sex life which would make her head explode) The younger two I'm still working on the basics with them.


----------



## CharlieParker

notmyjamie said:


> And the truth is that I have had sex sometimes when I didn't technically "want" sex at that moment.


In situations like that she won't say no, but she gets to define "sex". No pressure from me for PiV. It may just be some naked time with me finishing myself off on her boobs, or it may lead to more. "I say when, she says what" works pretty well for the occasional mis-match.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

CharlieParker said:


> In situations like that she won't say no, but she gets to define "sex". No pressure from me for PiV. It may just be some naked time with me finishing myself off on her boobs, or it may lead to more. "I say when, she says what" works pretty well for the occasional mis-match.


Which is nice if your wife doesn't find anything other than PIV to be too odd repulsive, or a turn off.


----------



## MEM2020

The desire to please a partner and it’s mirror image which is the desire to avoid displeasing your partner - are key parts of loving someone. 

Those desires (to please/avoid displeasing) are not bedroom limited - they are universal. 





notmyjamie said:


> Absolutely. And the truth is that I have had sex sometimes when I didn't technically "want" sex at that moment. But what I did want was to please my partner because I enjoy pleasing my partner not because it was expected of me or because he pouted or whined if I didn't but because it brings me joy to please him.
> 
> There are lots of other nuances to this conversation as well. Do I have to do every sexual thing my partner wants? Nope. I'm allowed to have some hard no's just like he is. I do try to be as accommodating as my comfort level allows.
> 
> I eventually work these types of issues into my conversations with my girls. My oldest is now college age and she is in a stable, loving, exclusive relationship so we talk more about this kind of stuff now. (as much as I can without ever talking about my own sex life which would make her head explode) The younger two I'm still working on the basics with them.


----------



## CharlieParker

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Which is nice if your wife doesn't find anything other than PIV to be too odd repulsive, or a turn off.


Understand, you’ve mentioned it before. We were always go to PiV people and not much else, not because other things were too odd, just PiV worked well. We learned to expand the repertoire, and that was really important as we got older.

How old are you guys? I’m 51, she’s 56, it doesn’t get easier IME. If she is open to books try _Sex for Grown Ups_. (Suggest the book at your own risk, I got my wife a different relationship/sex book and, well, I ducked in time.)


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

CharlieParker said:


> Understand, you’ve mentioned it before. We were always go to PiV people and not much else, not because other things were too odd, just PiV worked well. We learned to expand the repertoire, and that was really important as we got older.
> 
> How old are you guys? I’m 51, she’s 56, it doesn’t get easier IME. If she is open to books try _Sex for Grown Ups_. (Suggest the book at your own risk, I got my wife a different relationship/sex book and, well, I ducked in time.)


Both 54. 

Other than PIV would have been very helpful at times since she was so prone to UTIs (even with fastidious hygiene on both our parts). Would be helpful today as she's developed other menopause related discomforts.

She tries sometimes. Really tries. Even enjoys it so.etimes. But always relapses. Lots of upbringing issues and negative early sexual experiences issues that cemented some sex-negative and repressive attitude about sex. Combine all that with an inherently risk averse personality and it's a lot to overcome.


----------



## MEM2020

Yeti,
We are both 56 and as I know you know, there are no easy answers. I will say that giving up PIV around 7 years back was a real loss. Luckily we had always done other stuff so - we just kept doing the - other stuff. 

Everyone has a different viewpoint on certain topics, so I will share mine: given that PIV hurts her and is therefore off the table - If M2 had ALSO suffered from anxiety issues about non PIV stuff I’d ask her to either go to therapy or find a short half life medication that worked for her. 

And fwiw - I get that some folks are rabidly anti pharmaceutical. Thing is - that includes men who won’t use viagra or cialis and instead just shut sex down permanently in their mid fifties. Me personally - I’ve never much cared for the mindset that marriage is for life but I get to act like I’m single with regard to decisions like these. 

PIV pain becomes more and more common with age....




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Both 54.
> 
> Other than PIV would have been very helpful at times since she was so prone to UTIs (even with fastidious hygiene on both our parts). Would be helpful today as she's developed other menopause related discomforts.
> 
> She tries sometimes. Really tries. Even enjoys it so.etimes. But always relapses. Lots of upbringing issues and negative early sexual experiences issues that cemented some sex-negative and repressive attitude about sex. Combine all that with an inherently risk averse personality and it's a lot to overcome.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

MEM2020 said:


> Yeti,
> We are both 56 and as I know you know, there are no easy answers. I will say that giving up PIV around 7 years back was a real loss. Luckily we had always done other stuff so - we just kept doing the - other stuff.
> 
> Everyone has a different viewpoint on certain topics, so I will share mine: given that PIV hurts her and is therefore off the table - If M2 had ALSO suffered from anxiety issues about non PIV stuff I’d ask her to either go to therapy or find a short half life medication that worked for her.
> 
> And fwiw - I get that some folks are rabidly anti pharmaceutical. Thing is - that includes men who won’t use viagra or cialis and instead just shut sex down permanently in their mid fifties. Me personally - I’ve never much cared for the mindset that marriage is for life but I get to act like I’m single with regard to decisions like these. Lo
> 
> PIV pain becomes more and more common with age....


Fortunately theres no pain during PIV; so long as she gets lots of recovery time between events.


----------



## EllisRedding

notmyjamie said:


> Absolutely. And the truth is that I have had sex sometimes when I didn't technically "want" sex at that moment. But what I did want was to please my partner because I enjoy pleasing my partner not because it was expected of me or because he pouted or whined if I didn't but because it brings me joy to please him.


Honestly, I don't think I could like this comment enough. I absolutely cringe when someone says that if they are not in the mood then, why should they have sex. I understand there could be a myriad of reasons, and not saying that you have to have sex each and every time. Statements like this though just come across as selfish. Aren't you supposed to be with someone that you want to make happy, that it feels good to make them happy???


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> Honestly, I don't think I could like this comment enough. I absolutely cringe when someone says that if they are not in the mood then, why should they have sex. I understand there could be a myriad of reasons, and not saying that you have to have sex each and every time. Statements like this though just come across as selfish. Aren't you supposed to be with someone that you want to make happy, that it feels good to make them happy???


I think this topic gets sort of mis-communicated. There are 2 differing PoVs. One is as if instances on the timeline of life are separate and disconnected and the other is as if each point is very influenced by the rest. What I mean by this is that if you DON'T want to make your partner happy, you are selfish. Or you picked wrong. Boom. Done. Simple. And really, that is one very good possible explanation. But at least one other is that your life is fraught with resentment. Where each instance of not "being in the mood" might look like that when one is trying to get through day to day. But that mood can be influenced by the rest of ones life with ones partner.


----------



## Holdingontoit

It is OK to say "no" any time. It is not OK to say "no" every time. It is even more not OK to say "no" every time, and then deny this is the case, or even if it were the case, deny that consistently saying "no" is relevant to the continued health of the relationship.

Unless you are married to me.


----------



## MEM2020

For those couples who have a PIV limited playbook - the HD partner is very likely to eventually hear: THAT hurts, I don’t want to play this game anymore.

Waiting til you are 60/65 to hear and respond to that is not terribly nice. To either of you. 





CharlieParker said:


> Understand, you’ve mentioned it before. We were always go to PiV people and not much else, not because other things were too odd, just PiV worked well. We learned to expand the repertoire, and that was really important as we got older.
> 
> How old are you guys? I’m 51, she’s 56, it doesn’t get easier IME. If she is open to books try _Sex for Grown Ups_. (Suggest the book at your own risk, I got my wife a different relationship/sex book and, well, I ducked in time.)


----------



## TiffTiff18

My husband doesn't talk about it. Many times I try to get playful and either spice it up or try something different (role playing, etc.) and he never acts on it or seems interested. I'll say "Tell me what you you'd like or what you want me to do or something of that variation." I get "you know, stuff". 

We've been together 13 years and still him talking about our sex life is like a massive taboo subject. The ONLY time he ever seemed interested in this stuff is right after his affair. For a about 6 months it was hot and heavy and then nothing at all. It's frustrating that you can't talk to you own So about what you or they like and adding in new things. Once sided conversations never go very far.

Good luck on getting her to talk about it. And if you get her to, share with me your secret!!!!


----------



## Holdingontoit

If they cannot talk about sex, they have shame about something. Instead of trying to get them to talk about sex, try asking about the shame, why they are uncomfortable, etc.

When they try to say "everyone feels weird talking about sex", agree that many are uncomfortable, but not so uncomfortable that they cannot talk to their spouse about it at all. Tell them that you don't feel comfortable HAVING sex with someone who can't TALK with you about sex. Wish I had thought to do that early in our marriage.


----------



## uhtred

Many children were taught to be ashamed of sex, and that sort of training doesn't go away easily. 

This can be made worse by a partner who every mocks or disparages a sexual request. That is difficult to recover from.


----------



## FeministInPink

uhtred said:


> Many children were taught to be ashamed of sex, and that sort of training doesn't go away easily.
> 
> 
> 
> This can be made worse by a partner who every mocks or disparages a sexual request. That is difficult to recover from.


YES. I was raised this way, and then my XH reacted in the way you described when I tried to talk about sex with him. I think he did it because HE wasn't comfortable and didn't want to talk about it.

I'm very grateful that my most recent partner encouraged me to talk about sex, and he was very open and liked talking about our sex life. He made it much easier for me.

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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Imagine:

1. Not being taught sex is shameful, but witnessing it the form of a mother who's sexual behavior destroyed the family and then continued to neglect the kids while always with boyfriends after the divorce.
2. Getting caught masturbating by peers and being continually ridiculed for it. 
3. Being assaulted in your first sexual relationship as an adult.

Add all this to being of a very risk averse personality type to begin with.

Some rather heavy baggage there. Gonna' be pretty tough to overcome and be sex positive after all that. 

Far too many people suck. They either have no idea the damage they do, or they just don't care and are straight up evil. Just based on eliminating sexual terrorism alone, society as a whole would be so much better off. Not only ourselves, but our partners would benefit. We'd all be happier and healthier... physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.


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