# Your responsible for your part of the problems in you marriage.



## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Here is a quote I have used and am now calling into question.

"You are responsible 50/50 for your problems in the marriage. The WS is 100% responsible for cheating."

I think that this needs to be tweaked a bit. I mean once and EA starts it pulls the WS away from the marriage. The AP gives the WS 100% of his/her attention. Therefore the WS gets used to that and puts the same expectations on the LS. 
In a marriage though that's never really possible with kids,finances, chores, and work. 
Then to me the WS creates these problems or excuses with in the marriage to try and "fix" her marriage. The other thought is makes the problems in the marriage up to justify her EA/PA.

Therefore my conclusion is that the LS is only responsible for the problems within the marriage before an A is initiated. After the marriage is compromised with an EA/PA then all problems are suspect and can be directly or indirectly related to the affair.

Any thoughts?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

So your saying the A is a byproduct of an unhealthy marriage.

I think there are two different issues, 1) the unhealthy marriage, and 2) infidelity.

Even good marriages have wayward spouse, but in your senerio, its how one handles a unhealthy marriage that bring about the infidelity.

I still think hundereds of folks have crappy marriage and never cheat. Cheating is a choice healthy or unhealthy marriages it happens when the wayward makes that choice to stop affair proofing the marriage.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

the guy said:


> So your saying the A is a byproduct of an unhealthy marriage.
> 
> I think there are two different issues, 1) the unhealthy marriage, and 2) infidelity.
> 
> ...


No i am saying that the once the BS decides to have an affair that the marriage is compromised and that from that point forward the root cause of marriage issues is the A. Not We didn't talk enough.
You take a good marriage and one of the partners starts getting attached to someone. Then all of a sudden their marriage is terrible. I don't buy that.


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## StagesOfGrief (Aug 19, 2012)

I think there obviously inherent issues that WOULD be directly caused by the A that will exist over time, but at some point I don't believe all issues can be linked back to an event and that there can be some problems that evolve that are unrelated to a WS. While the A never goes away, in a successful reconciliation my belief is that a new marriage has been formed and problems within that marriage may or may not be unique to the A. 

I get what you're saying but sometimes it's hard to paint a picture with a broad brush.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I don't even think that couples are 50/50 responsible for problems in a marriage. There are problems on both sides but can't say they are always 50/50.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Chris is right. The point of the quote isn't to quantify the blame for things. It's to put the blame for the choice to have an affair on the WS.

Some BS are responsible for 50% of the problems in the marriage pre-affair. Some are 10% responsible. Some are 90% responsible.

But I do agree. Once an affair begins, then the WS begins to check out of the marriage and begins to actively damage the marraige.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

I agree with you, badbane. And I'd venture to guess that if my FWS was posting on this forum, so woud he...

My M was in bad shape pre-A...so much so that I was contemplating divorce as well. However, I was in no rush to make any foolish decisions and was doing a lot of self-reflection and reading.

My H on the other hand jumped into an A with a dysfunctional loser who came after me and the kids in an attempt to destroy our M because she felt he had to pay for ending the A. My H has admitted many times that the A made our problems far worse and that pre-A they could have been easily solvable had he not gotten so angry and put so much of the blame for our issues on me.

During the A he was horrible but I was so withdrawn that I didn't connect the dots. Our M was a 100 times worse during the A than it was pre-A.

My H said recently that he wishes everyday he could go back and talk to the fool he was back then and explain that our pre-A our problems were definitely surmountable.

But now, he lives with the fact that his A, even though it's been over for a year, may very well destroy our marriage 2 years... or even 5 years from now.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> I don't even think that couples are 50/50 responsible for problems in a marriage. There are problems on both sides but can't say they are always 50/50.


Absolutely. It may in most cases take the work of both spouses to most effectively work on the problems and improve the marriage, but I do not see any basis for the assumption that pre-affair both partners are equally responsible for the challenges the marriage faces.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

When I quote that, I am talking pre-cheating. I also go farther and say there are 4 choices when a marriage is in trouble
- cheat
- divorce
- ignore the problems
- work on the problems

Once one partner makes the choice to cheat, the marriage problems have magnified a thousand fold and I wouldn't even venture what percentage is the BS's fault any more. It doesn't even apply.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

I think i can understand what badbane is saying. I've seen people with apparently happy marriages justify an affair to the wazoo using complaints that the BS never heard about before D-day. It seems at least some WS make up their grievances with their marriage in the preparatory phase of the affair.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

The last sentence of Badbane's initial post and PHT capture. Once affair has begun, it impacts every interaction and aspect of the marriage. From the start of the affair, the marriage is on an accelerating downward slope.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Also, some the research I've read since discovering the A seems to suggest that once infidelity is discovered, hindsight often reveals that the marriage problems were greatly influenced by the very factors that led the WS to chose an A as a solution to their marital unhappiness. Factors such as the Wayward Spouse's poor coping skills, poor communications skills, emotional immaturity and certainly their selfishness and entitlement. 

In my case, I was in the same M as my WS and he was definitely NOT husband of the Year.. but I didn't jump into an A. This was certainly not due to lack of opportunity but due to the fact that I knew it was the quickest way to turn my life and my children's lives into a Jerry Springer episode. Only a moron could miss that fact. My H admits he was that moron.

Assigning more blame to my H doesn't help with R but it certainly helps me realize that his A was not due to my failures as a wife and partner but it was ALL about his poor choices in life.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Well I'll be the unpopular one and say I disagree with the original premise.

Take the example of a neglected wife who's husband works 80 hour weeks. She's probably saying to herself, well the marriage problems are 50/50, but he's 100% responsible for the neglect.

She concludes that maybe there were problems before the neglect, but the neglect compromised the marriage and the situation within the marriage is now 100% his fault, and justifies an affair.

Or...

Take the husband who's wife is a huge over-spender and will not operate within a budget. He knows that working 80 hour weeks is a bad idea, but she won't compromise. He concludes that there were problems before the overspending, but her continued overspending has made the problems 100% her fault, and justifies becoming the workaholic in the previous example.

No spouse is responsible for their partner's bad choices, but many times they are equally responsible for creating the environment that puts their partner in the position to make bad choices, IMO, even if they did not know it at the time.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Well, this is why blameshifting from waywards is so laughable. 

Too many betrayed spouses fall all over themselves owning up to most or all of the problems in the marriage.

The way to handle this is to say, "There were problems in our marriage. You chose to do something that not only didn't solve ANY of them, it made the problems far worse. So stop telling me that this is my fault. It might have started out with both of us to blame, but then you went and did something that was far worse than all the bad things I ever did put together."

and I say this as someone who definitely did many things that harmed our marriage out of my own selfishness and immaturity. 

Interestingly, I realized that what I was doing was selfish, wrong, and harmful. I stopped behaving that way just before (unbeknownst to me) my H entered his affair. Even my husband now acknowledges that I changed so profoundly that I had already improved our marriage as much as *I* possibly could, within my control. 

But that STILL didn't get my husband to end the affair on its own.

Entering an affair still comes down to the choice of the spouse that does it. It is entirely in their control. But they each deny having that control--because to acknowledge that it was in their control is to admit how very selfish their choices were.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Acorn said:


> Well I'll be the unpopular one and say I disagree with the original premise.
> 
> Take the example of a neglected wife who's husband works 80 hour weeks. She's probably saying to herself, well the marriage problems are 50/50, but he's 100% responsible for the neglect.
> 
> She concludes that maybe there were problems before the neglect, but the neglect compromised the marriage and the situation within the marriage is now 100% his fault, and justifies an affair.




Then why did my husband have an affair, instead of me?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

badbane said:


> No i am saying that the once the BS decides to have an affair that the marriage is compromised and that from that point forward the root cause of marriage issues is the A. Not We didn't talk enough.
> You take a good marriage and one of the partners starts getting attached to someone. Then all of a sudden their marriage is terrible. I don't buy that.


b- I agree totaly, thats the rewriting history thats part of the script.
What else can a waywrd say, "I'm broken and have issues"?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

iheartlife said:


> Then why did my husband have an affair, instead of me?


I am not sure why you are asking me this? The couple in my post was hypothetical... everyone is different.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Acorn said:


> I am not sure why you are asking me this? The couple in my post was hypothetical... everyone is different.


Are you saying that the 100% blame of the 'neglected wife' is a rationalization for the affair in her mind? It that's the case, then I agree with you that she would blameshift 100% on her spouse. But are you also saying he therefore deserves 100% of the blame for the affair?

There is a difference between the cheater's rationalization of how to apportion blame, and how someone objectively outside the marriage would apportion blame.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Zanna said:


> Also, some the research I've read since discovering the A seems to suggest that once infidelity is discovered, hindsight often reveals that the marriage problems were greatly influenced by the very factors that led the WS to chose an A as a solution to their marital unhappiness. Factors such as the Wayward Spouse's poor coping skills, poor communications skills, emotional immaturity and certainly their selfishness and entitlement.


:iagree:


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Acorn said:


> Well I'll be the unpopular one and say I disagree with the original premise.
> 
> Take the example of a neglected wife who's husband works 80 hour weeks. She's probably saying to herself, well the marriage problems are 50/50, but he's 100% responsible for the neglect.
> 
> ...


The reason I liked this is cuz I do agree there are all kinds of forms of cheating on your spouse in a marriage so lets not get that confussed with infidelity...and even more specific adultory.

So even if a spouse is cheating on the SO by being a workalholic, or cheating on the SO by being addicted to gaming, do two wrongs make a right by that SO to cheat emotionally by finding a "friend"? 

So will this bad behavior the spouse has lead to adultory? Will the workalholic or the gamers unhealthy marital behavior leed to adultory, were as the emotional connection the SO has made to fill the void surely will leed to adultory at some point.

I nuts were in the hell am I going with this?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

iheartlife said:


> Are you saying that the 100% blame of the 'neglected wife' is a rationalization for the affair in her minds? It that's the case, then I agree with you that she would blameshift 100% on her spouse. But are you also saying he therefore deserves 100% of the blame for the affair?
> 
> There is a difference between the cheater's rationalization of how to apportion blame, and how someone objectively outside the marriage would apportion blame.


No, what I'm saying is that an affair, neglect, workaholics, sexless marriages, substance abuse, other types of abuse are all really bad things to force on a spouse.

None of those things justifies any of the other things at all.

It sounds to me like they are both disrespecting their spouse in ways that hurting the other to the core, and that the neglect and affair are the final acts of a play that has been playing out with both spouses as the lead characters for some time.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I'm all confused what you are trying to say. All I know is I told my hubby all of our problems were his fault and I had no faults.. I really actually did! The problem is..I took the choice to ignore our problems and then tookl the choice to have an affair. I finally woke up and realised that yes he had faults but the reason he had faults are because I created these faults in him...For example, he was mad and grumpy all the time, well now I see that if I would have given him the attention and appreciation he deserved then we wouldn't have had all of these problems...but anyway instead of taking the choice to face and deal with our problems I made the wrong choices and made things 100 times worse. I was always afraid of conflict. So like an idiot I go and cheat to feel better??? crazy...It don't work, it never helps a damn thing. So anyway Dr.Phil always says something about marriage is not 50/50 but 100/100.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Whether or not the even split is accurate, I must admit that my husband was verbally, emotionally and physically abusive. It progressed over time and I was too young and too much of a people pleaser to see it, initially. I asked for counseling, tried to talk to him about it and all he said was "I just need to be nicer, I don't need someone in my business". 

After leaving and his suing for custody of our daughter, I requested a court-ordered psychological evaluation for parental fitness. All this time I thought he was bi-polar due to his hot/cold nature and instead discovered he had narcissistic personality disorder and the psychologist said it was "so severe and ingrained that even with extended, intensive therapy there was not likely to be any improvement". Wow that helped me so much to move on.

But I learned that, due to my passive nature, that allowed him to become the bully he was. Obviously had I NOT been passive our marriage would have also ended, but I contributed to the situation by lack of action. It was really quite eye-opening.

(I was awarded full custody and found to be a good parent whereas he was practicing parental alienation techniques and his exposure to her was subsequently quite limited.)


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Acorn said:


> No, what I'm saying is that an affair, neglect, workaholics, sexless marriages, substance abuse, other types of abuse are all really bad things to force on a spouse.
> 
> None of those things justifies any of the other things at all.
> 
> It sounds to me like they are both disrespecting their spouse in ways that hurting the other to the core, and that the neglect and affair are the final acts of a play that has been playing out with both spouses as the lead characters for some time.


I still think you're missing the fact that many times the cheater is a narcissist or self-loathing and engages in adultery as a way of compensating for serious self-deficiencies. Their spouse did nothing more than marry a very damaged person.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

I think that once an A, either PA or EA, or inappropriate relationships,ie toxic friends, are formed, that the problems in the relationship shift torwards the Wayward. Since essentially the BS becomes like a parental figure in that she gets the stability of a BS. But the rush of emotions out of dating / seducing AP's.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

badbane said:


> Therefore my conclusion is that the LS is only responsible for the problems within the marriage before an A is initiated. After the marriage is compromised with an EA/PA then all problems are suspect and can be directly or indirectly related to the affair.
> 
> Any thoughts?


I think I understand what you are saying. I’ve called it the “manipulated marriage”.

During my wife’s affairs, to alleviate her own guilt, she magnified in her head all my issues. Some of that results in demonizing. Others were legitimate, however nothing I did ‘resolved’ the issue because nothing I can do now will undo the past... which she held onto like a grudge. So, she manipulated the perception of the marriage to be much worse than it actually was. Sort of this idea that its easier to shoot in cold blood a intruder in your home than a girl scout knocking on your door. One is ‘less bad’ than the other so you don’t have to feel as guilty about it. So once she started her adulterous ways... you can almost pinpoint how much worse her complaints about the marriage increased. 

Add to this that you are human. So when faced with an ongoing campaign of hostility, you aren’t exactly going to respond in ‘friendly ways’. That feeds the problems. Thing is, she is manipulating the marriage in a way that insures her you are going to prove how evil you are by doing and saying things she should already know will anger you... There is no 50/50 when one person is out to harm the marriage for their own benefit. 

50/50 can apply when both are actually trying to make the marriage work and individual issues are clashing.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

iheartlife said:


> I still think you're missing the fact that many times the cheater is a narcissist or self-loathing and engages in adultery as a way of compensating for serious self-deficiencies. Their spouse did nothing more than marry a very damaged person.


Not at all, I hear you.

Thing is, if your spouse has an affair and you come to this conclusion incorrectly, you have lost a huge opportunity for growth, and stand a very good chance of making similar mistakes in the next relationship.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I actually just wrote about this to another poster and without giving away details, I'll quote what I wrote: 



> Instead of giving you some "Rah! Rah!" speech about how you're not to blame...<s/he> is...I'm going to do something different. This is actually what I tell EVERYONE including myself, and that is that infidelity does not occur in a vaccuum. It is incredibly, EXTREMELY rare for one partner to be perfectly blameless and the other to be so vile that they intentionally commit adultery. It's not unheard-of...just VERY rare!! About 98% of the time, both parties contributed to the environment that damaged the marriage and made them both vulnerable to infidelity. The vast majority of the time, they both did things or said things that were not loving, kind, thoughtful etc.
> 
> Now I do understand what <previous poster> is trying to say, and I do agree. No one is perfect!! And I don't care how imperfect you were, that in no way justifies or explains his decision to have <an affair>!! But what so many people don't really think about is that what they did...is what they did! *Your <spouse's> unfaithfulness does not justify your bad actions either--we all know that two wrongs don't make it right*! So in real life, it is wise for you to look at yourself, to consider the things you did that contributed to weakening the marriage, and to LEARN FROM IT. Learn how to be a better <person>...a better <spouse>...a better human being. If you have things you need to work on, you need to work on them and change yourself whether <s/he> does or not! And just because you look at yourself and change yourself *in no way* means that you are or should take <him/her> back--especially if <they have not worked on changing themselves or how they treat you>!
> 
> Looking at yourself and admitting what you did... is mature. It's honest. It's showing a high level of morality and the personal quality of being able to grow. These are all good things. So yep, you did what you did. It honestly is not okay to have sex with your <spouse> a couple times a year or to push <him/her> away (physically or emotionally). So what are you going to do about it? If you have issues with sex--and it seems reasonable that you would if <you had abuse in your childhood>--then it seems to me that it would be wise to address those issues and learn how to have a view of sex that include enjoyment and pleasure. Same for pushing someone away physically and emotionally. It seems to me that it would be reasonable for you to be afraid to trust someone emotionally--if they get too close, they will hurt you worse AND now your husband has done exactly that! Again it seems to me it would be wise to address the fear of intimacy and learn how to tell if someone is trustworthy and learn how to let someone in!


When the Loyal Spouse is the only spouse that comes here to TAM, their Disloyal Spouse is NOT HERE looking for help--the Loyal Spouse is. And before the A both spouses may or may not have contributed to the downfall of the marriage 50/50. That's sort of irrelevant--maybe it was 60/40 or 70/30! But the relevant part is that you did what you did. If it was unloving, or based on fear, or due to avoiding issues from the past--then whether your spouse ends their affair or doesn't end their affair, that in no way justifies what you did. 

Put another way,* I am responsible for ALL that I do*...ALL of it!!! If my spouse screams at me for hours, chases me around the house, punches the wall right by my head, and threatens to kick the dog--he would be being a jerk, and we all agree he is wrong--but if I scream back, punch him back, and threaten him back I'm responsible for what I did (and need to face the fact that I probably need anger management!). If I choose cower, beg for another chance, and be a doormat...I'm responsible for THAT (and need to learn how to stand up for myself). 

I don't look at it as a matter of "Who's part was bigger?" I look at it like "What did you do?" and "What are you willing to do and going to do to change yourself?" You can't change your spouse, so stop worrying about that and trying to manipulate things so they do what you want. Instead put your energy on what you CAN change, what you CAN control, and what you ARE responsible for: YOU.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

This thread is kind of cuts close to the bone for me. So I will try to be dispassionate but if I choose my words badly I apologise.

The underlying issue in my marriage is communication. My wife is very passive and stiff-upper-lip. I am very "let's confront things and sort it out". So from my perspective she avoids issues to the point of lying rather than confront hard truths, and from her perspective I make issues where there aren't any. After 30 years we are still working on this single issue. It's better but still a problem. Both of us share the responsibility to make it work. I don't see any point to debating whether it's 50/50 or 30/70.

But the affair resulted from this issue. She was at an age where her sex drive was kicking in, we had endured some very difficult years..at the time I had no idea how difficult they were for her because she never told me. And then the stars aligned with a group of "friends" who encouraged her with another man and WHAM.

Now, the decision to start the affair was hers alone, taken without talking to me. The decision to continue it after I found out was hers alone, in spite of my many objections. The decision to lie to me about it was hers alone. And it was wrong.

But if both of us had handled some things differently before hand, maybe it could have been avoided. Who knows? So I choose not to keep score. 

Besides, it doesn't help. The affair happened, it can never unhappen. We are still together 22 years later, luckier than many in that respect.

The other point of he original question, that the affair becomes 100% the cause of problems, I disagree with. It certainly caused some problems, but really it was a symptom of a deeper issue. The only time I think an affair would be 100% the cause of marital problems is when the issue is one partner's refusal to commit to fidelity.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Zanna said:


> But now, he lives with the fact that his A, even though it's been over for a year, may very well destroy our marriage 2 years... or even 5 years from now.


Slight thread jack but this is a key point. 

The longest I have seen is a twelve year gap between the affair and the end of the marriage. So there is no magic number. 

My suggestion is, you have to work on a strong relationship, and that include confronting the problems. If you don't confront them you don't get over them and they can bite later. If you do confront them the pain of he affair never goes away, but you deal with it better.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Utterly brilliant observation - 1000 percent agree with this. 




badbane said:


> Here is a quote I have used and am now calling into question.
> 
> "You are responsible 50/50 for your problems in the marriage. The WS is 100% responsible for cheating."
> 
> ...


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## NornIron7 (Jul 5, 2012)

Wazza said:


> My suggestion is, you have to work on a strong relationship, and that include confronting the problems. If you don't confront them you don't get over them and they can bite later. If you do confront them the pain of he affair never goes away, but you deal with it better.


100% agree with this statement. My marriage was in trouble way before the affair. But both of us were "good people" and cared about each other so not wanting to hurt each other by asking or saying difficult things. We didn't communicate enough about our needs and wants and desires. 

That's the biggest thing I've learnt from this. Speak up when you want to be heard and listen to understand what is being said.

My wife and I are in the early days of R. I'm not sure if or how we will survive. We'll see. But certainly we both contributed to where we are now.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I think their are instances on here of a WS deliberately goading their husband/wife in order to create an atmosphere in which they can justify an affair as being "all my husband/wife's fault."


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

NornIron7 said:


> 100% agree with this statement. My marriage was in trouble way before the affair. But both of us were "good people" and cared about each other so not wanting to hurt each other by asking or saying difficult things. We didn't communicate enough about our needs and wants and desires.
> 
> That's the biggest thing I've learnt from this. Speak up when you want to be heard and listen to understand what is being said.
> 
> My wife and I are in the early days of R. I'm not sure if or how we will survive. We'll see. But certainly we both contributed to where we are now.


well said, and thanks to all of you on this thread -- very helpful:yay:

this gets to the heart of something that pulls me back and forth daily as i cope with R (or maybe it's just the lead-up to R).

i am one of those who is most certainly at least 50% responsible for the sorry state of my marriage pre-A... probably more like 60%. i am accountable for that AND i also see clearly that the A is WH's responsibility completely. i also agree that once the A began, WH caused the problems to proliferate, escalate, and deepen.

it is sometimes hard to hold all this in my mind at the same time. i can actually feel my mind trying to over-simplify it, sometimes in one direction, sometimes in the other.

but it's like affaircare said. he's not completely vile and evil, and i'm not completely without a role in the decline of our marriage. 

he has to own up fully to his actions and their damaging consequences, and we both have to face squarely the pre-existing problems and the work needed to remediate them. we both have to grow up and shoulder all that, in its complexity -- or not.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Acorn said:


> Well I'll be the unpopular one and say I disagree with the original premise.
> 
> Take the example of a neglected wife who's husband works 80 hour weeks. She's probably saying to herself, well the marriage problems are 50/50, but he's 100% responsible for the neglect.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what I said in my OP. The BS is on the hook until the A begins. Once the WS turns outside the marriage and gets attached then the BS can't win. That same guy/girl that spends too much time at work comes home to a WS who is happy instead of frustrated. That is able to look past the issues with in the marriage because he/she is getting their affections return outside the marriage. Therefore can put on a happy exterior. The marriage becomes compromised. 

Once the marriage is compromised there isn't any progress being made. I mean my wife is OCD and has a hard time making friends with other women. She is just very judgmental of other women. She gets along with men a lot better than women. However I noticed that our relationship was suffering. She would talk about her day, her problems, the OM issues, and all of that. However when I voiced my concerns and problems she just checked out. 
Since ending the sprouting EA my wife and I are much closer. I am happy again. I really feel like I got my wife back. Sure we fought a lot and we butted heads however we set our boundaries. We got a lot of issues worked out. 

IT was not until the OM entered that our marriage was in a rocky situation. My wife and I had a lot of issues built up. My wife had no friends to turn to and so she felt trapped. I tried to help her and thing just got to be too much. I don't ever think that OM are blameless. They are snake's they are predator's looking to get laid.
Unless the WS is doing all of the seducing I can't just excuse them either.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

iheartlife said:


> Are you saying that the 100% blame of the 'neglected wife' is a rationalization for the affair in her mind? It that's the case, then I agree with you that she would blameshift 100% on her spouse. But are you also saying he therefore deserves 100% of the blame for the affair?
> 
> There is a difference between the cheater's rationalization of how to apportion blame, and how someone objectively outside the marriage would apportion blame.


That's right- bit IMO someone outside of the marriage should Not be apportioning blame. They have little idea of what went on and how one or both partners perceived it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Great, tremendous thread. Thanks.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

I noticed about a month after the OM was history that my wife and I started having some heart to heart , no holes barred talks. We got a bunch of crap dealt with. Right now our relationship is seemingly rock solid. Were closer than ever and a lot of my bad habits started changing once we were back on track. It was all because my wife started talking to me again and not some @#$hole trying to get in her pants.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Acorn said:


> Well I'll be the unpopular one and say I disagree with the original premise.
> 
> Take the example of a neglected wife who's husband works 80 hour weeks. She's probably saying to herself, well the marriage problems are 50/50, but he's 100% responsible for the neglect.
> 
> ...


So then get a divorce and don't cheat. None of the things you listed justifies starting an A. The serial overworker that neglects his wife is 100% responsible. there for the wife should say either you're going to be a part of the marriage or we won't have one. Instead she starts talking to a guy friend that "supports her and she starts complaining and turning to the new guy for support." Yea that still not grounds for cheating.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

badbane said:


> Here is a quote I have used and am now calling into question.
> 
> "You are responsible 50/50 for your problems in the marriage. The WS is 100% responsible for cheating."
> 
> ...


Agreed. And THIS works both ways. As far as WS wanting BS to give them as much attention as AP did during A.....Well here's a flash I dont know a single BS who says their WS gave them nearly as much attention as they gave their AP-EVER(and that includes when they were dating)!

I hear stories of them staying up til all hours of the morning on the phone to AP but they are in bed at 9pm with their BS. Or in my case my H sent 30-40 sometimes 50 emails a day to AP while I could scarcely get a reply to a text.... so yeah, that goes both ways. NO wayward gives their spouse the amount of energy they gave their AP or there likely wouldnt be a problem in the first place.
So I love it when I read a wayward saying "you didnt give me any attention". I always want to say "how much attention did you give your spouse in comparison to your boyfriend/girlfriend?" and your spouse has to live with that every single day. So yes, watching my H send his AP 40 emails a day most definately contributed to our marital problems....imagine that.

So I agree OP, I think in the future I will adjust that statement to " both are responsible for the state of the marriage right up until the point that the A began then its 100% on the wayward from that moment on".


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> I think their are instances on here of a WS deliberately goading their husband/wife in order to create an atmosphere in which they can justify an affair as being "all my husband/wife's fault."


Oh looking back now, my H absolutely did that. He blamed alot of things on me that he never had before. Knit picked the hell out of me. I now know it was all justification to carry on his EA. If he looked at who I truly was and the fact that I truly loved him, he couldnt do what he was doing so he created problems the deeper the EA got the more problems he 'created'. He admits all of this now. He didnt realize that was why he was doing it then though. But now, in hindsight, yeah that was why. If he was upset with me it made it easier to go be with her. Also, we couldnt talk about anything. He was sooo checked out. If I tried to talk to him during his A it was like he was on another planet. He says now "there's no doubt I was too checked out to hear anything. My mind was on her unfortunately. As wrong as that is." These are the kind of statements that haunt even my sleep.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

My STBXW blame shifted everything on me. She wouldn't even except responsibility for 50% of our marriage before her affair...or her affair itself. 

Our pre-affair marriage was more like 80/20 The truth is she was lazy, selfish, entitled, and had major spending issues. I was not happy with our sex life starting a couple years before her affair. I would try to discuss this with her but she would not do much about changing or helping to meet my needs. I would ask her if she was happy and how we could improve our marriage. Her response, even during her affair, was she was happy and everything was fine.

She was spending me blind, hiding purchases, opening up credit card accounts in my name (without my knowledge) She was paying them down with my money...not hers. My money was our money and her money was her money. Keep in mind I only worked 40 to 45 hours a week. when I wasn't at work...I was at home. 

She never contributed to the household finances. She has quite an extensive wardrobe and over 200 pairs of shoes...I have 5. She refused to work more then 3 days a week (6 hours a day). She always got to drive the new cars I provided for her while I drove the old one and would openly complain if I needed to drive the new one once in a while. I cleaned the house much more then her. I usually did the dishes, laundry, grocery shopping...etc. 

I played with the kids, helped them with their homework and tucked them in at night...while she sat on her ass Fakebooking and texting. She would go out for GNO's at least 2 to 3 times a month as well as her weekly bowling/drinking (co-ed)...while I was with the kids. I paid for her health club membership, that she never used and refused to quit, while I work out in the basement. She would spend her days off shopping and lunching with friends while I was at work. She was living a life like the House Wife's of Orange county! During her affair she spent this time with POSOM...and I was inadvertently paying for it. She also spent a lot more time, emotional/physical effort on him...and he did virtually nothing to deserve or earn it. 

My point is...if anyone had a reason to cheat...it was me. I was emotionally and physically neglected for years. I was financially taken advantage of and made all of the sacrifices in our marriage and for our children...she sacrificed nothing...and gained everything. 

I was the giver and she was the taker yet, I never cheated. Why? Because she lacked integrity...and I didn't.

Looking back, I was a chump. I thought she appreciated all that I did and sacrificed for her. I would know i would have. I believed in treating people the way you would want to be treated. I believed in marriage and the commitment necessary to make it work...she obviously did not.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> I actually just wrote about this to another poster and without giving away details, I'll quote what I wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The point is that as soon as someone goes outside of marriage. Be it for emotional baggage, neglect whatever. It becomes 100% the fault of the Wayward. The Loyal spouse can do the 180, can change his behavior all he wants, but it isn't until the Affair is busted up, that the marriage can recover. 
And If your Betrayed spouse in anger, pain and frustration punches a wall because the image of his wife getting plowed from behind,( and her enjoying it pops in his head) then no he is not being a jerk. He is just trying to find a way to accept that his spouse screwed him over. That goes the same for the woman too. There is a deep emotional scar that comes with an Affair. I am not condoning abuse. But when I found out about my wife's stuff I came home from work the next day. Did not say a word to anyone picked up my sledge hammer and started busting up concrete in the back yard. I did half a days work in an hour in a half with a dress shirt on, slacks and dress shoes. Why because the woman I adored and loved with everything I had was setting herself up to betray me.

So sorry I don't agree. My wife put me in an emotional state that I would not have otherwise been in because she was having an Emotional Affair. Hell my wife has even told me to my face now that she doesn't know how she got there. She said you really weren't doing anything wrong. That is echoed in a lot of reconciled couples stories. Marriages aren't perfect so that is what makes affairs that much more devastating. Because Affairs are "perfect" for the WS. While the crumbling marriage that "wasn't perfect" was a "horrible marriage where I was neglected "
Here is a challenge name one side effect of an affair that enhances an marriage. Name one problem an affair solves in a marriage. Name one thing a LS can do to compete with a AP. 
You know the "i am in love with you but not in love with you." How is that the LS fault if the reason for it is some dude is plowing her after work, before she comes home.

Name one thing that is not affected or tainted in marriage by an affair directly or indirectly. 

Somedaydig comes to mind he was gone a lot. Then his job is over and six months later (maybe less) bang Dday. 
I can blame a LS if there never was infidelity and his SO Divorces him for neglect, falling out of love, unhappiness, being a bad provider, abuse, trust issues, etc. 

However cheating ,unless the WS thinks the BS is dead and some time has passed, is not in any way a good thing.

I mean we marry for life and that is the vow. Sickness, health, ups, and downs if you can't take it get out. Just don't stab your loved one in the back first.

I will say one caveat is when the LS pushed the WS into a threesome, then yea that is asking for it. 

IMO contributing to a bad marriage can be resolved. Contributing to a bad marriage doesn't give someone license to cheat. No one is perfect that is all the more reason not to cheat. Simply because most of the reasons you decide to cheat stem from imperfections of the WS not the LS.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

the guy said:


> So your saying the A is a byproduct of an unhealthy marriage.
> 
> I think there are two different issues, 1) the unhealthy marriage, and 2) infidelity.
> 
> ...


And hundreds of other folks have fantastic marriages, yet their spouse still cheats.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

badbane said:


> It was all because my wife started talking to me again and not some @#$hole trying to get in her pants.


I agree with this. 

My, the OW in my STBEH's affair stalked him and me prior to the affair even starting. 

She would bump into him oops, accidentally on purpose almost everywhere in town. 

Based on the emails and texts sent to me anonymously she was the aggressive pursuer, even though he tried to break it off several times. 

She sent homemade sex videos of herself and would not give up. 

My STBEH is just as bad though, in my mind, because he should have just said no to her and said yes to the counseling I had been asking for. 

All marriages have problems. Marriages take work. 

The fact that my STBEH was all too eager to cheat as a way to cope with any real or perceived issues in our marriage is something that would make me distrust him forever. 

We did talk better after. 

But the betrayal is something that I think, due to his character, is something he will use again to cope with normal marital bumps in the road.

Also the fact that he initially tried to convince me it was only an EA, and then months later I found out via anonymous letter that was a PA, further makes me distrust him.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> I think their are instances on here of a WS deliberately goading their husband/wife in order to create an atmosphere in which they can justify an affair as being "all my husband/wife's fault."


This is an excellent point, Matt Matt. 

My STBEH was doing this during the affair to justify going into another room to talk with his AP. 

For example, I have a brother with health issues. He calls about once a week to discuss them because he is single and lives alone. 

My husband would say to me, when I took his call and would talk for about a hour..."Oh I see you want your privacy" or "I see you would rather talk to your brother than me"

I would think WTF?, but not wanting to start a fight over nothing, I just took it. 

He would also complain about all matter of non issues and often start fights or goad me to get angry in order to justify leaving the house to meet his AP.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Decimated said:


> My point is...if anyone had a reason to cheat...it was me. I was emotionally and physically neglected for years. I was financially taken advantage of and made all of the sacrifices in our marriage and for our children...she sacrificed nothing...and gained everything.
> 
> I was the giver and she was the taker yet, I never cheated. Why? Because she lacked integrity...and I didn't.


Several of the marriage counselors we saw actually said to my STBEH that it sounded like I "had more reason to cheat than he did"

They pointed out not only was he neglecting me prior to the discovered affair, but he was without a doubt neglecting me during it. 

I attributed his behavior to work stress, but I did not even think of cheating. 

I figured we would get over this bump in the road.

Also the counselors pointed out that STBEH was neglecting me in the year following my father's death.

Anyway, I share this to show others that this is not uncommon....Too often the loyal spouse is the giver and the cheater the taker in the marriage.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> When I quote that, I am talking pre-cheating. I also go farther and say there are 4 choices when a marriage is in trouble
> - cheat
> - divorce
> - ignore the problems
> ...


I'd like to add one more element to the choices:

- cheat and cake eat
- cheat, leave the BS for the AP
- ignore the problems
- work on the problems
- divorce

I couldn't agree more that the pre-affair marital issues of the BS are not applicable once either of the first two choices are made by the WS. But if the BS wants to have a successful R, he/she needs to understand and correct their issues as part of affair proofing the marriage going forward. 

Just my perspective as a BS in R.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Several of the marriage counselors we saw actually said to my STBEH that it sounded like I "had more reason to cheat than he did"
> 
> They pointed out not only was he neglecting me prior to the discovered affair, but he was without a doubt neglecting me during it.
> 
> ...


I agree. I have read that the spouse that has the least amount invested in the marriage is the most likely to cheat. In my case the investments were emotional, physical as well as financial.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

the guy said:


> So your saying the A is a byproduct of an unhealthy marriage.
> 
> I think there are two different issues, 1) the unhealthy marriage, and 2) infidelity.
> 
> ...


I don't think he is saying that. I think he is saying that the WS's conduct during the affair, adds insult to injury. Bad marriages don't cause affairs, but affairs cause bad marriages.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Wazza said:


> This thread is kind of cuts close to the bone for me. So I will try to be dispassionate but if I choose my words badly I apologise.
> 
> The underlying issue in my marriage is communication. My wife is very passive and stiff-upper-lip. I am very "let's confront things and sort it out". So from my perspective she avoids issues to the point of lying rather than confront hard truths, and from her perspective I make issues where there aren't any. After 30 years we are still working on this single issue. It's better but still a problem. Both of us share the responsibility to make it work. I don't see any point to debating whether it's 50/50 or 30/70.
> 
> ...


Waz, this is making excuses for her cheating. NO, let me repeat, NO marital problem justifies an affair.....none


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

I keep on hearing that people who are in healthy happy marriages also cheat?
Is that really true?
Surely there have to be SOME problems in the marriage for the WS 'go looking' or 'get caught up in' an A?

How many WSs or BSs can realistically come on here and hand on heart say they had the perfect marriage before infidelity occurred?
Having problems in the marriage is not an excuse for cheating at all but why would the A happen if there weren't any problems to begin with?

And for the record my marriage is well on its way to becoming a lot healthier and happier, not because of his A, but despite of it. We have been so open, honest and just plain in love for a long time.
It's as if we have been given a second chance.
Made us both really appreciate what we have and what we could've lost.
This is going to sound crazy but I think if the A hadn't happened we would have plodded along and ended up miserable and divorced in a few years.
We've both had a wake up call!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Marital problems and cheating are like cake and ice cream. Sometimes they go together, and sometimes not, but neither one causes the existance of the other.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

daisygirl 41 said:


> I keep on hearing that people who are in healthy happy marriages also cheat?
> Is that really true?


Yes, it is true. I think it is more the case of developing a crush on someone else and lacking the boundaries and personal ethics to put the brakes on that relationship. It really has nothing to do with you at home.

There are also the 'mental' ones. That's my wife. Very old sexual trauma was triggered by another personal event. Lots of overwhelming emotions she couldn't put a source on... I just saw her spiral rapidly out of control.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

daisygirl 41 said:


> I keep on hearing that people who are in healthy happy marriages also cheat?
> Is that really true?
> Surely there have to be SOME problems in the marriage for the WS 'go looking' or 'get caught up in' an A?
> 
> ...


I think its possible to have a happy marriage but be unhappy with yourself. Have low self esteem and to need outside ego stroking to feel validated. Your spouse strokes your ego b/c they love you (in the minds of these people)not because its true. However, outsiders stroke b/c its true. They have no other feelings for you initially so whatever they say MUST surely be true. therefore, everything the outsider(slowly becoming AP with the stroking) says bears 1000 x's more weight than your LS. So slowly you build a wall to your spouse and a window to your AP. Now nothing your spouse does gets thru and everything your AP does is marvelous and earthshattering. though they could be doing the exact same things. I often told my H how smart he was. How handsome he was. So did AP. Who do you think he heard? Remember I HAD to say that since I loved him, she was just some girl who noticed him....

But yes we had a good marriage. We hardly ever fought. Spent all of our free time together. Agree on most major issues. and enjoy alot of the same things. Then he started spending 10hrs a day 5 days a week with AP. She worked literally 10ft from him. They started talking over the wall. More and more emails. He sat in her office and she in his....slow slide. Sharing family stories, talking about sports, work 10 hrs a day. Thats more time than he spends with me so the progression was natural. he should have put space between them both literally and figuratively. Instead, it felt good to have his ego stroked so he sought more and more. 

Thats how it happens in a happy marriage.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks canttrustyou
What reason did your H give you for cheating then? Or did he try and even give you one?
I'm not questioning your post btw just curious.
My marriage wasn't bad before the A either but it wasn't perfect I think we had become complacent and had just become lazy in our Relationship. I guess that can happen after 17 years!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thanks canttrustyou
> What reason did your H give you for cheating then? Or did he try and even give you one?
> I'm not questioning your post btw just curious.
> My marriage wasn't bad before the A either but it wasn't perfect I think we had become complacent and had just become lazy in our Relationship. I guess that can happen after 17 years!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh please dont take what I said as saying our marriage was perfect. No marriage is perfect. Weve been married for 15 years. Not perfect but we didnt fight. We got along. We spent our time together, raised the kids together- we did well until the A started. Yet keep in mind he was ALWAYS a flirt. He saw flirting as 'innocent'. He sees now how it escalates. You flirt with this girl this much then this girl this much then this girl a bit more then more.... and so it goes. Then BAM one of them is a bigger flirt than YOU and a way better player at the game. Yes, to him it was innocent in the beginning when he started flirting but each time it took more and more to get the same thrill. But there was alwas physical distance and no real interest in her. Then there she was right next to him and she was playing the game full on. It felt good and he thought he could handle it. He never expected to develop feelings for her. It never happened before. In his head he was immune. flirting was fun then you go home to your wife and kids,whom you really love and care about and thats it. But this time- this time she started coming home in his head slowly but surely. His failure was to recognize this and to put up the wall. It felt good. He got addicted to the attention. The ego stroking. He failed to keep his boundaries in place. This is why I say workplace flirting is so incredibly dangerous. They spend more time together than they do with you. If they start flirting, sharing personal things, joint interests, kid stories and sprinkle with an enormous amount of time together its a recipe for disaster.

So you asked what 'reason' he gave? In his words: " THe ego stroke felt good. She made me feel special. I made her special. I failed to keep my boundaries. It started with the same old ****, flirting a little then it just escalated beyond belief. Before I knew it, it was out of control and I was lying to myself and justifying it. NONE of this is your fault. I loved you then and I love you now. I was selfish and egotystical. It was all about ME. I knew I was in trouble in July but I didnt want to stop yet I did. I chose to keep lying to you because I wanted my cake and to eat it too. I NEVER wanted to leave you. I never wanted to go to her. I wanted just what I had. Like a damned child. I am working on myself. I know how and why this got started. And it wont be repeated. Thank you for pulling me out when I wasnt doing it for myself. I hope you can forgive me eventually. I truly am regrettful and so so sorry"

So. There it is. He did it because he lacked boundaries and because it was feeding his ego. IMO part of a MLC. He's 43. some self esteem issues that he is addressing as well. 

What do you think? Why did your H do it?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

daisygirl 41 said:


> I keep on hearing that people who are in healthy happy marriages also cheat?
> Is that really true?
> Surely there have to be SOME problems in the marriage for the WS 'go looking' or 'get caught up in' an A?
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone has said their marriage was perfect. 

No marriage or person is perfect. 

A mature person, however, who has a realistic expectation of a marriage already understands that. 

The issue is cheating, which always involves major lies, gaslighting and deception of a person they are supposed to love. Their spouse. 

A mature person with problems in their marriage real or imagined would have sought counseling or if they felt the marriage was dangerous or hopeless, then a divorce is the mature realistic approach. 

Cheating is nothing less than emotional abuse on many levels.

It's wrong. 

While in the affair the cheater is NOT working on the issues in their marriage. They are not even attempting to work on issues or themselves. They are in avoidance mode.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Wow can't! Thx for that. I could have written most of that about my H. MLC/coworker/very loose boundaries. The only difference is that my H wasn't a flirt. Never saw him look at another woman in 17 years. I think that's why I was completely bowled over when I found out.

He said it happened because he felt like he was at the bottom of the pecking order, lower than the dog! Her mother had died of cancer a few months before it started and they had that in common, she was struggling with her grief and he was there to talk too and it all went from there.

I think it happened for a number of reasons and some of his points were valid. But of course not a reason to go out and cheat. But I really do believe that he didn't go out looking for an A, and his absolute remorse and disgust with himself since its been over also leads me to believe this.

Why do I think he cheated? Lack of boundaries, low self esteem, a need for validation/attention from someone else.
The OW was/is also married with kids. She made a play for him, she wanted him a d he was too weak to see through her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> I don't think anyone has said their marriage was perfect.
> 
> No marriage or person is perfect.
> 
> ...


I agree with you but why would one go for MC if the marriage isn't in trouble, if as we are saying that cheating also occurs in happy marriages?
Not all WSs go out looking for the A. We all know that, but when the WS is has become emotionally attached to another no amount of MC will stop it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

daisygirl 41 said:


> I agree with you but why would one go for MC if the marriage isn't in trouble, if as we are saying that cheating also occurs in happy marriages?
> Not all WSs go out looking for the A. We all know that, but when the WS is has become emotionally attached to another no amount of MC will stop it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is an IC issue for low self esteem and the need for external validation. Its in ALL the phsychology books. NO MC is gonna fix that need. Its not a marital problem its an individual problem then that low self esteem and need for external validation presents in flirting or an affair. This is what my H's IC told him. This is YOUR issue. Not a marital issue. There may be marital issues but your need for external validation is what led you here.....


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> I think its possible to have a happy marriage but be unhappy with yourself. Have low self esteem and to need outside ego stroking to feel validated. Your spouse strokes your ego b/c they love you (in the minds of these people)not because its true. However, outsiders stroke b/c its true. They have no other feelings for you initially so whatever they say MUST surely be true. therefore, everything the outsider(slowly becoming AP with the stroking) says bears 1000 x's more weight than your LS. So slowly you build a wall to your spouse and a window to your AP. Now nothing your spouse does gets thru and everything your AP does is marvelous and earthshattering. though they could be doing the exact same things. I often told my H how smart he was. How handsome he was. So did AP. Who do you think he heard? Remember I HAD to say that since I loved him, she was just some girl who noticed him....
> 
> But yes we had a good marriage. We hardly ever fought. Spent all of our free time together. Agree on most major issues. and enjoy alot of the same things. Then he started spending 10hrs a day 5 days a week with AP. She worked literally 10ft from him. They started talking over the wall. More and more emails. He sat in her office and she in his....slow slide. Sharing family stories, talking about sports, work 10 hrs a day. Thats more time than he spends with me so the progression was natural. he should have put space between them both literally and figuratively. Instead, it felt good to have his ego stroked so he sought more and more.
> 
> Thats how it happens in a happy marriage.


Wow, this sounds like my STBXW. 

I used to compliment her and she would say "You have to say that...you're my husband" To her, my compliments didn't count because I was married to her. To me that thinking is just insane. We were together for 15 years. I've seen her at her absolute worst...child birth, sickness, throwing up, unwashed, unshaven, no makeup...etc and yet I can still compliment and appreciate her at her worst as well as her best. I had nothing to gain by showing her attention or complimenting her. POSOM never saw her at her worst...only her best. He had everything to gain from complimenting her...and did.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Decimated said:


> Wow, this sounds like my STBXW.
> 
> I used to compliment her and she would say "You have to say that...you're my husband" To her, my compliments didn't count because I was married to her. To me that thinking is just insane. We were together for 15 years. I've seen her at her absolute worst...child birth, sickness, throwing up, unwashed, unshaven, no makeup...etc and yet I can still compliment and appreciate her at her worst as well as her best. I had nothing to gain by showing her attention or complimenting her. POSOM never saw her at her worst...only her best. He had everything to gain from complimenting her...and did.


Walls and windows Decimated. walls and windows unfortunately.


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## DrDavidCOlsen (Oct 7, 2012)

Affairs do not happen in a vacuum. Recovery involves several steps which speak to the problem of taking responsibility for part of the problem. Stage 1 - the person who had the affair must be committed to trust building and containing the rage and hurt of partner. This is NOT the time to talk about preexisting problems. The only goal is trust rebuilding and absorbing the partner's emotion. Stage 2 begins when more trust is established and the emotions have calmed. THen is the time to explore pre-existing marital problems and rebuild. Without both stages, there is rarely a full recovery
Dr.DavidCOlsen, author "The Couple's Survival Workbook"


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Walls and windows Decimated. walls and windows unfortunately.


I am still all these months later realizing just how high those walls to me were. ANd in some ways still are.truly heartbreaking. Old habits die hard as they say. Difference is there are no windows to OW.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

DrDavidCOlsen said:


> Affairs do not happen in a vacuum. Recovery involves several steps which speak to the problem of taking responsibility for part of the problem. Stage 1 - the person who had the affair must be committed to trust building and containing the rage and hurt of partner. This is NOT the time to talk about preexisting problems. The only goal is trust rebuilding and absorbing the partner's emotion. Stage 2 begins when more trust is established and the emotions have calmed. THen is the time to explore pre-existing marital problems and rebuild. Without both stages, there is rarely a full recovery
> Dr.DavidCOlsen, author "The Couple's Survival Workbook"


I agree affairs do not happen in a vacuum, but in the mind of the WS.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Badblood said:


> I agree affairs do not happen in a vacuum, but in the mind of the WS.


which is comparable....:rofl:


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