# Woke up.....



## razgor

OK, so I joined the club that no one wants to be in. Where to begin? We have been married over 10 years and have two wonderfull young children. Like all marriages we have had our ups and downs. The last three years have been especially down. We had become more like room mates then husband and wife. I will be honest, a lot of it was my part. I kind checked out and did my own thing. My wife did try to involve me in several areas and I really did not try. About 6 months ago my wife wanted us to work on our marriage and consider seeing a MC, but we did not.

The last couple of months my wife seemed to be very secretive with her phone. She was constantly texting. The texting is not odd, because she has always loved to text.

On a hunch I monitored some of her texts for two days, and clearly saw she was having an affair with a co-worker. I was shocked, but I guess not overly suprised. Their were lots of red flags that I had ignored.

When I confronted her about it, she completely denied the affair and who it was with. After I told her the name of the OM she started talking. She said it was strictly an emotional affair and that it had been going on for the last 6 months. She said they were always friends, but realized things were getting out of hand 6 months ago when she came to me. She said she loved him. But she also said that neither one of them wanted to "run away". He is also married with young children.

After our talk we agreed to see a MC. The very next morning she had called and scheduled a meeting with one. She says she will break off the affair immediately. That she wants to be married to me, but she wants our relationship to be better. She still loves me, but I need to fill the void that was missing.

I clearly have issues that I need to address. And I plan to see a counsler one on one. I love her and I dont want to break up our family. But at the same time, I do not see how I can fill that void for her. I dont want to chase after a woman that just cheated on me. But I still feel partially responsible. I am not really sure how to proceed. 

Thanks for reading, I admit it feels very weird posting this on a website.


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## Philat

How you proceed will depend on what exactly the void is (which should come out clearly in MC).

But whatever you do you should not chase after her. You should make her want to chase after you.


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## wranglerman

She cheated, it's her responsibility to address her issues, you never drover her into the EA with the OM she chose to go down that road, what she could have done in stead was stand up and say "I want a divorce if things don't change" think that might have grabbed your attention don't you???

What void are you talking about?

What has your sex life been like before, during and now post affair?

What is she doing to change the situation?


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## lone and cautious

Let's see, wife denies affair, then you prove there was one. She confesses but says it was emotional.....

Nope, don't believe it and neither should you. Chances are it was more than that and you need to tell the omw and expose like crazy. Don't worry about breaking up his marriage, not your responsibility and he should have thought of that before he got involved with your wife. Blow it out of the water, and don't trust her one bit. Verify that it is over, remember she broke your trust. Don't give it to her blindly ever again.

Both SOs are responsible for the marriage, but she choose to cheat. It was her fault, not yours. 

Good luck man, you'll need it.


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## Dyokemm

Based on the texts you saw, do they support her claim that it was only an EA?

The reason I ask is because if she is not being honest about the extent of this, and is engaging in what is called trickle-truth (TT), then there is little chance you can save your M.

Continued lying on her part would destroy any attempts to rebuild the trust a M requires to work.


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## Married but Happy

You bear some responsibility, because you checked out and ignored her pleas to fix things by going to MC. This motivated her to seek elsewhere what you should have been providing. But she is the one who resorted to cheating, though I think it's mitigated by your actions.

You do not need to pursue her. You do need to greatly improve your communication and interactions, pay attention to each other, and listen. She needs to show remorse and work to regain your trust. MC should help in these things. Eventually, you may be able to reconnect, and she may make overtures to you - and you should accept them if you want to save your marriage. You should also work on yourself, but without shutting her out, as that was the motivator for her cheating.


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## Dyokemm

Also,

Expose this POS to his BW...telling her will be the best insurance that the A will end and STAY dead.


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## anchorwatch

Miss Taken compiled some good resources that are of use for newbies, here...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/176962-useful-threads-resources-tam-web.html

If you want insight and a plan, you'll need these...


Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"

Welcome and Orientation | Married Man Sex Life


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## itom72

razgor said:


> When I confronted her about it, *she completely denied the affair and who it was with*. After I told her the name of the OM she started talking. She said it was *strictly an emotional affair* and that it had been going on for the last 6 months. She said they were always friends, but realized things were getting out of hand 6 months ago when she came to me. *She said she loved him.* But she also said that neither one of them wanted to "run away". He is also married with young children.


Like others here, I suspect you're being "trickle-truthed". She may be taking the affair underground.

She *loved* him, or *loves* him? Big difference, of course.

You're not out of the woods with this affair, not by a long shot. Expose to the OM's wife and monitor your wife's communications. 

So they don't want to "run away" with each other, eh? Does that mean they don't want to be cake-eaters, either? Your wife's intent may be to eat cake. It's your job to make sure that if that's the case, she eats crow instead.


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## razgor

Thanks for the comments everyone. Let me try to answer the questions and put my mind together. I hope I get all the abreviations right. I just started reading this website a couple of days ago when I uncovered the truth.



Dyokemm said:


> Based on the texts you saw, do they support her claim that it was only an EA?
> 
> The reason I ask is because if she is not being honest about the extent of this, and is engaging in what is called trickle-truth (TT), then there is little chance you can save your M.
> 
> Continued lying on her part would destroy any attempts to rebuild the trust a M requires to work.


The texts clearly hinted at something more then a EA. And I really believe there was something more going on. However, I just confronted her. I hope she will "come clean". Personally, it does not make a huge difference to me if it was just an EA or PA. If anything falling in love with someone else is worse then sex. But I want her to be honest.



wranglerman said:


> She cheated, it's her responsibility to address her issues, you never drover her into the EA with the OM she chose to go down that road, what she could have done in stead was stand up and say "I want a divorce if things don't change" think that might have grabbed your attention don't you???
> 
> What void are you talking about?
> 
> What has your sex life been like before, during and now post affair?
> 
> What is she doing to change the situation?


She has been open for a long time what the void is. Sex, love and romance. Our marriage has been lacking in that area. 

I even told her during our confrontation that she should have just come to me and said "I want a divorce if things do not improve". She feels that she did that when she asked us to see a MC. I dont know, everyone perceives conversations differently.

Or is she just throwing out blame at me. Not really sure.



lone and cautious said:


> Let's see, wife denies affair, then you prove there was one. She confesses but says it was emotional.....
> 
> Nope, don't believe it and neither should you. Chances are it was more than that and you need to tell the omw and expose like crazy. Don't worry about breaking up his marriage, not your responsibility and he should have thought of that before he got involved with your wife. Blow it out of the water, and don't trust her one bit. Verify that it is over, remember she broke your trust. Don't give it to her blindly ever again.
> 
> Both SOs are responsible for the marriage, but she choose to cheat. It was her fault, not yours.
> 
> Good luck man, you'll need it.


I thought about blowing it out. By exposing the OM to his family and job. But that would ruin her job as well. 

Like it or not, one way or another, no matter the outcome this woman is going to be part of my life forever. If I go nuclear then I am afraid it will just "poison the well" between us. And while it will give me great satisfaction, my two children will suffer the most. 



Married but Happy said:


> You bear some responsibility, because you checked out and ignored her pleas to fix things by going to MC. This motivated her to seek elsewhere what you should have been providing. But she is the one who resorted to cheating, though I think it's mitigated by your actions.
> 
> You do not need to pursue her. You do need to greatly improve your communication and interactions, pay attention to each other, and listen. She needs to show remorse and work to regain your trust. MC should help in these things. Eventually, you may be able to reconnect, and she may make overtures to you - and you should accept them if you want to save your marriage. You should also work on yourself, but without shutting her out, as that was the motivator for her cheating.


Thanks, really good advice. Just day by day I guess.


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## MattMatt

You both made mistakes. Her mistake was having an affair.

Guess what? It's not uncommon. It can be got past and through.

couples and individual counselling will help.

Get yourself checked for STDs, just in case.

And have the children DNA tested. This will be a wake up call to your wife that you can now no longer trust her, rather than a real attempt to paternity check your children.


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## tom67

It's critical that you contact His wife ASAP. Do not tell your wife just do it.


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## SF-FAN

Yeah man NO MATTER WHAT was wrong, there is NO REASON for her to cheat. If she loses feelings, she needs to divorce and move on but NOTHING justifies cheating. My WW tried justifying her cheating the same way saying I did not put effort into the marriage and did this and that wrong BUT I tried everything to help the marriage succeed. 

Just because you checked out does not give her the right to find someone else to fill a void. BTW, really think carefully about MC because my WW and I tried it but it was nothing but a waste of time and money. The counselor was very neutral but my WW took everything the counselor said to use it against me and to make her feel what she did was not wrong.

For example, the counselor had us do an exercise where we could not make the other do anything (only during the exercise in counseling) but my WW took it as life advice so when I asked her to stop texting, talking to other guys, she said "well the counselor said we can't make each other stop doing anything."


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## lifeistooshort

Married but Happy said:


> You bear some responsibility, because you checked out and ignored her pleas to fix things by going to MC. This motivated her to seek elsewhere what you should have been providing. But she is the one who resorted to cheating, though I think it's mitigated by your actions.
> 
> You do not need to pursue her. You do need to greatly improve your communication and interactions, pay attention to each other, and listen. She needs to show remorse and work to regain your trust. MC should help in these things. Eventually, you may be able to reconnect, and she may make overtures to you - and you should accept them if you want to save your marriage. You should also work on yourself, but without shutting her out, as that was the motivator for her cheating.



Best post here, listen to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wranglerman

tom67 said:


> It's critical that you contact His wife ASAP. Do not tell your wife just do it.


This I fully agree with, OM is stepping out and his poor BW needs to know the truth.

PS. Glossing over this for the sake of your kids will do way more harm than you realize, sort this out now before mommy runs away with a new OM who lights her fire next and ruins their life for you.


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## Chaparral

They can not work together. One has to quit, no there options. Two people working with each other cannot just stop. There has to be no contact.

There has to be total access to her phone, email accts, facebook etc. You have to look for apps on phone that can be used as texts with out leaving a trace.

You need to put a var in her car and in the house where she is likely to use a phone when you are not there. Be careful they do not use a burner phone.

The OM's wife must be told. You need her to keep an eye on the other end of this mess.

Get the two books linked to below asap. Mmslp is for you. " Not Just Friends" is for you both. Do this now.


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## RWB

SF-FAN said:


> Yeah man, NO MATTER WHAT was wrong, there is NO REASON for her to cheat. If she loses feelings, she needs to divorce and move *on but NOTHING justifies cheating. *


*What SF-FAN says is not advice it is the HARD COLD FACTS.*
Do not get in the mindset that you "CAUSED" her to cheat. SHE made that decision ALL ON HER OWN. Marriage is 50/50, cheating is 100% on the cheater. There are 100 other options she could of chose... but cheating is the "instant gratification" but... with all the baggage. 

IN MC, make it clear... YOU STAYED FAITHFUL... SHE CHEATED.

BTW, quit kidding yourself, it was definitely Physical.

The question? ... can you and your wife R ? I have been there in spades. 

It is possible.


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## walkonmars

As long as they see each other every day it's going to be difficult for them to forget that they 'love each other'. Oh, they'll be sure to stay apart - and may even mean to do it - but they will eventually get back to at least 'being friends'. That is death by 1000 paper cuts to your marriage. 

The best way to ensure they stay apart is to expose to the OM's wife immediately - and it's the right thing to do. Don't you think she deserves to know that her husband has been fooling around while she raises his kids? Wouldn't you have liked someone to clue you in. 

In fact, there are probably people at their work who know what's been going on. Some may even approve and support this 'loving couple' and be willing to set up smokescreens. 

Nope, they can't be together ever again. 

Expose to the OM'sW and insist your wife find another job ASAP.


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## Dyokemm

Razgor,

You said you'd LIKE her to be honest.

I think your M NEEDS her to be honest if you are going to work through this.

I agree with you that either an EA or PA is destructive, and understand that you view them with little difference.

The reason I think that you must get to the truth is because I do not think R can work if she is still hiding things, lying, and deceiving you.

Continued deception and dishonesty is a continuation of the betrayal.

Without a full and honest admission of what she has done to you, the M, and the family, R will not work.

Anything less is essentially rugsweeping. which leads to false R and often to future repeats of the cheating.

And if you want to spare work exposure for now (I disagree, but its your call), then hold off.

But definitely expose the POS to his BW.

Make sure he has other problems to deal with other than trying to continue the A with your WW.


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## Graywolf2

razgor said:


> I even told her during our confrontation that she should have just come to me and said "I want a divorce if things do not improve". She feels that she did that when she asked us to see a MC. I don’t know, everyone perceives conversations differently.


Do you want your wife to cheat again? She used your inattentiveness and her MC request to excuse her affair in her own mind. That’s why she dismissed your question about how she should have threated divorce.

By not reacting much to the affair and promising to do better you are totally validating her excuse. Now she thinks she did nothing wrong and you have to earn her back. If you fail to dance the way she likes she is totally within her rights to have another affair. She thinks that MC will only be about spanking you for your sins.

Ask her if her affair was so justified why did she lie to you.

She needs to pay a price and work to earn your trust back. Look up the 180 and do it. 



razgor said:


> The texts clearly hinted at something more then a EA. And I really believe there was something more going on.


I know you don’t care if it was a PA or not but you need to set the record straight so that she understands the extent of her betrayal. (venereal warts or herpes anyone?) Collect more evidence or press her to confess with what you have. 

Tell her that to have a successful reconciliation you have to start with no secrets. Tell her if you find out later that it was PA it will be a setback. Bring this up in MC.

If you decide to expose the affair to the OMW do not tell your wife that you are going to. She will warn the OM. 

He will tell his wife a story about a woman at work who has an insanely jealous husband and that husband thinks they are having an affair. The OM may also intercept your email and my even reply pretending to be his wife.


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## Chaparral

It sounds like she is basically off the hook. In other words, besides catching her, you have done very little to make reconcilliation work. To let her know how bad this is, tell her you and her are getting tested for STDs and set up an appt.

Also tell her you need to get your kids dna tested.

How is your sex life now? You should be in the hysterical bonding stage. Has there been ANY change in frequency in the last year.

Cheaters generally lie about everything. For example, go back and check out the older phone records to see if it really started six mos ago.


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## 6301

I know it will be hard for you to do but just remember that your wife lied to you about her affair, she denied it until she was cornered and then said it was only a EA. 

With that information you should be very reluctant to believe what she tells you. Right now she's trying to minimize the affair and cover her ass. 

As of now, her job is to prove to you that she wants the marriage to work and one way to make sure that you got your bases covered is by letting the OM wife know what's going on. 

From what you have said that your not willing to exposing the affair to his family. Look. He had NO PROBLEM messing with your wife and your family. He doesn't get a free pass and the only way you can put a stop to this is by letting his wife know what he did and she can take care of that part of the mess. You can't afford to play the nice guy or you will come out even further on the short end of the stick.

If you still have doubts about your wife and her being truthful, then tell her your taking her for a polygraph test. If she balks at it then you know she has more to hide. If she wants it to work then she will do what ever it takes to prove that she wants the marriage to work.

One other thing. You also have to improve yourself and be more of a husband than you have been. It still isn't any excuse for her to cheat though.


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## HubbyDaddy2013

SF-FAN said:


> Yeah man NO MATTER WHAT was wrong, there is NO REASON for her to cheat. If she loses feelings, she needs to divorce and move on but NOTHING justifies cheating. My WW tried justifying her cheating the same way saying I did not put effort into the marriage and did this and that wrong BUT I tried everything to help the marriage succeed.
> 
> Just because you checked out does not give her the right to find someone else to fill a void. BTW, really think carefully about MC because my WW and I tried it but it was nothing but a waste of time and money. The counselor was very neutral but my WW took everything the counselor said to use it against me and to make her feel what she did was not wrong.
> 
> For example, the counselor had us do an exercise where we could not make the other do anything (only during the exercise in counseling) but my WW took it as life advice so when I asked her to stop texting, talking to other guys, she said "well the counselor said we can't make each other stop doing anything."


:iagree:

These are our wifes! We are the one they chose to marry. Why is there such a communication problem that they CAN'T talk with us about their feelings, and why they feel unattended to? Why can't they sit down with us before doing anything rash, and show and tell us what they want is to improve on with them before going and having an affair? Why is it that they choose to automatically go and CHEAT on us instead? 

Are they bad people? 

Perhaps it is because they only care about themselves, and do not respect you! Cheating is so bad on so many levels, yet Cheaters will find ways to try to justify their actions by putting the blame on you! 

...They will use the love and respect that you had for them against you by trying to place blame on you, and explaining away their actions as if it wasn't that bad. 

It's pretty awful what they do to the Significant Other. Especially when kids are involved...It can be so heart breaking


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## HobbesTheTiger

Hi, sorry to hear the reasons why you're here!

Exposing the affair and her quitting the job are paramount! Get individual counselling and STD test for both of you, and a polygraph for her. Above all, listen to the advice here!

How old are the kids? Have they been noticing that something is different with mom and dad?

Best wishes!


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## the guy

Your old lady needs consequence for her deceit .

She must see that she has broken some thing special. 

One of the hugest consequence she could face is having to DNA your child...showing her that you now have to second guess the whole marriage.

Sure the kid is yours, the point here is your wife must see that thru her action of betrayal you now red to question every a aspect of the M and nothing brings this home then questioning the father of her child.

Ya it's over the top but it tells her that her actions have serious reprocucions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

BTW, every time she goes to work, seeing the OM will bring her feeling towards him back!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

the guy said:


> BTW, every time she goes to work, seeing the OM will bring her feeling towards him back!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*You confronted her, and she denied anything was going on; and then when fed with even more exacting information, she reluctantly relented and basically told you that it was only a 6-month old EA. 

Anyway you paint it, it all adds up to deception! And I'm now fearful that because of this deceptive "trickle-truthing, that it will now drive their affair into "underground mode." She will now switch phones, change passwords, and become even more secretive. Your chances of ferreting out additional evidence will now be largely compromised, other than for placing a VAR underneath her car seat or you hiring a PI to randomly tail her.

6 months certainly seems to be just a tad long for an EA to have gone on without the participants having gotten certain parts of their anatomy wet. If I were you, I'd get checked out for the presence of STD's, unless of course that she shut your water off 6 months ago!*


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## razgor

Thanks for the comments. Very blunt, but honest.

I have just uncovered the affair - less then a week. 

I have looked at the 180 and it seems like a good step.

I am still trying to map a path forward for myself. I have not taken contacting the OW off the table. I am just not ready to do it yet. I have not told anyone about it yet. I am not ready to talk to another mans wife about an affair.

Since the confrontation she has been very open with her phone. Leaving it unattended and such. And she offered to let me look at it anytime. 

Grr, drives me crazy. Either means she is really trying or she switched to a seperate phone. Or just laying low.

BTW, does anyone know what the terms GNG and GNH mean. They were used at the end of a text stream - when they stopped texting for the day. He said GNG, she responded GNH 

I am considering a VAR, but now seems like too soon to do it. I would think she would be much more careful now.


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## tom67

razgor said:


> Thanks for the comments. Very blunt, but honest.
> 
> I have just uncovered the affair - less then a week.
> 
> I have looked at the 180 and it seems like a good step.
> 
> I am still trying to map a path forward for myself. I have not taken contacting the OW off the table. I am just not ready to do it yet. I have not told anyone about it yet. I am not ready to talk to another mans wife about an affair.
> 
> Since the confrontation she has been very open with her phone. Leaving it unattended and such. And she offered to let me look at it anytime.
> 
> Grr, drives me crazy. Either means she is really trying or she switched to a seperate phone. Or just laying low.
> 
> BTW, does anyone know what the terms GNG and GNH mean. They were used at the end of a text stream - when they stopped texting for the day. He said GNG, she responded GNH
> 
> I am considering a VAR, but now seems like too soon to do it. I would think she would be much more careful now.


Get the VAR today and please contact his wife.
If it was the other way around you would thank her plus you two can exchange info.
You can do this.


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## anchorwatch

End of day remarks. 

Good night gorgeous.

Good night honey.


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## razgor

tom67 said:


> Get the VAR today and please contact his wife.
> If it was the other way around you would thank her plus you two can exchange info.
> You can do this.


Thanks. I kind of feel like it is too early for the VAR. She cleans her car regularly, I just could not leave it there for weeks. I feel like the time for the VAR is after we actually get further down the road of reconcilation. Like 1-3 months from now. 

I will be honest with myself, I dont want to hear the conversation now. I know it happend, I am 99.99% sure it was PA. That will just screw my own brain up. But latter on, if she tries to reconcile. Then I want to know. Then I can end the marriage with no regrets.


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## razgor

anchorwatch said:


> End of day remarks.
> 
> Good night gorgeous.
> 
> Good night honey.


Thanks. I guess.


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## wranglerman

the longer you wait the harder it gets, the more she gets to figure out what she needs to do to get and keep her A underground, thats where this is headed.

Get the bluudy VAR, get it secured where it can't be seen and easily discovered, does seem to be good results from under the dash above the kick panels.

I know first hand how a VAR can save your a$$!!!!!


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## kenmoore14217

Sorry, but the title "Woke up...." should read "Still Scared....."


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## phoenix_

6 months for an EA? Sounds like BS to me...


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## jb02157

lone and cautious said:


> Let's see, wife denies affair, then you prove there was one. She confesses but says it was emotional.....
> 
> Nope, don't believe it and neither should you. Chances are it was more than that and you need to tell the omw and expose like crazy. Don't worry about breaking up his marriage, not your responsibility and he should have thought of that before he got involved with your wife. Blow it out of the water, and don't trust her one bit. Verify that it is over, remember she broke your trust. Don't give it to her blindly ever again.
> 
> Both SOs are responsible for the marriage, but she choose to cheat. It was her fault, not yours.
> 
> Good luck man, you'll need it.


 It seems that she is really not willing to give the OP any assurances this won't happen again only that you will see an MC, which I guarantee will do you no good. I think she just wanted your attention but picked the wrong way to do it. She has you convinced this is your fault. Don't fall for it, she is using this as an excuse to do what she wanted to do in the beginning.


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## tulsy

razgor said:


> Thanks. I kind of feel like it is too early for the VAR. She cleans her car regularly, I just could not leave it there for weeks. I feel like the time for the VAR is after we actually get further down the road of reconcilation. Like 1-3 months from now.
> 
> I will be honest with myself, I dont want to hear the conversation now. I know it happend, I am 99.99% sure it was PA. That will just screw my own brain up. But latter on, if she tries to reconcile. Then I want to know. Then I can end the marriage with no regrets.


This doesn't make any sense. How is it too early for a VAR...you just got here, but you seem to know about VARs and when it's time to use them???

What do you mean, "later on if she tries to reconcile"? and "then I can end the marriage with no regrets"?

From your earlier post, you guys are gonna try MC and she said she's ending the affair now, so now would be the time for the VAR to see if she's still lying. 

Even if you don't want to know if it was physical, you NEED to know simply to determine if she is still lying to you.

Your logic is flawed...are you for real? Get a VAR dude.


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## badmemory

razgor said:


> I feel like the time for the VAR is after we actually get further down the road of reconcilation. Like 1-3 months from now.


That is a bad strategy, as is waiting to expose him. Now is the time for the VAR, when they're more likely to communicate. That communication will likely increase with his exposure, as they discuss what to do. The longer you wait, the better the chances that communication will dry up (assuming they eventually end contact). She won't suspect a VAR in her car if you do it right.

You need to confirm the PA so you know what you're trying to forgive. Not knowing for sure, will eat you alive if you attempt R. The best way to confirm that PA is the VAR, if you can't access/recover any more of their other past communication.

You said you are 99% sure it was a PA. You are correct in that assumption. You should also assume that it started long before that. Even so, the number of cheating men who would pursue "only" an EA for 6 months is miniscule. Men don't do it that way. She's almost certainly lying about that. Just like my wife lied about it only being an EA, and just like she lied about the length of time being 4 months. It was a 2 year PA. But I can assure you, that is typical behavior for a cheater - as a lot of other BS's here will confirm.

And, if they work together, you're fooling yourself if you think that will work. There's no other option than you insisting she leave that job.


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## EleGirl

razgor said:


> ....
> 
> I clearly have issues that I need to address. And I plan to see a counsler one on one. I love her and I dont want to break up our family. But at the same time, I do not see how I can fill that void for her. I dont want to chase after a woman that just cheated on me. But I still feel partially responsible. I am not really sure how to proceed.


How to proceed?

Get the books

"Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley. This one will tell give you a plan of how to proceed with exposing the affair, holding her accountable, and starting to address relationship issues.

"His Needs, Her Needs" again by Dr. Harley. This book will give you the road map of what both of you need to do to meet each other's needs, get your marriage back on track and get it as affair proof as is possible.


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## Chaparral

If she's still working with, especially since you haven't exposed the affair, you don't need a var. That's cause they are stillngoing at it. Why wouldn't they? 

You are on Wishful Thinking Street, time to turn on Reality Blvd and check out the destruction your lack of courage is causing.

Get the sony voice recorder at walmart or best buy, costco. Costs about sisty bucks. Get nothing else and get comfortable with the controls in your car.

Buy heavy duty velcro and hook it under the front seat or dash. Cheaters think their car is their safe haven. Even if she doesn't contact him by phone, she may talk to someone close and clue you in to what is going on now.

Re her texting. She may use apps that leave no record.

Tell his wife, she quits her job or just go ahead, save some heartache and file divorce. 

Don't believe me? There are thousands of threads here, go find one where what you are planning works.


----------



## tom67

Razgor
Leave work early today and go see his wife.
You will regret it if you don't.


----------



## harrybrown

Your wife cheated on you and does not respect you.

So what are the consequences? you do nothing?

Your wife is not attracted to you and will not be attracted to a doormat.

The best thing to kill the affair is to expose. Have her get tested for stds. 

I see you making the same mistakes many of us made. Wake up and let her see her consequences for your actions and let the POSOM's wife know all about it.

And her work! one of them needs to leave. Has she gone no contact with the OM? is she remorseful? I think she is upset she got caught. get evidence to give to the other BS.


----------



## Graywolf2

You seem to be in your own fog and don’t want to know anything. You feel that if you know 100% instead of 99.99% you will be forced to do something. You don’t want to rock the boat in any way because you can’t imagine life without your wife. 

Ironically being prepared to lose your wife is the best way to keep her. If you let this go she will never respect you and you may lose her anyway. If she stays it’s because you’re a well behaved pet she feels sorry for that is good with her kids. 

She has a fu*k buddy she loves (“Good night gorgeous. Good night honey”) that doesn’t want her full time because he has a wife and kids. They are willing to let her live with you while they carry on. I wonder if she will start being faithful to the OM and stop having sex with you.

Being willfully being blind to the situation is the same as tacit approval.

Hotwife: A married woman who has sexual relations with other men, with the husbands approval.

Grow a pair and fight for your wife. It’s the best way to keep her.


----------



## intuitionoramiwrong

Didn't we just have a troll thread from a "razor" that sounded like this?

I don't want to assume that is happening again...just a concern before people put a ton of effort into their replies.


----------



## razgor

OK, lots of replies. Let me try to answer them.



tulsy said:


> This doesn't make any sense. How is it too early for a VAR...you just got here, but you seem to know about VARs and when it's time to use them???
> 
> What do you mean, "later on if she tries to reconcile"? and "then I can end the marriage with no regrets"?
> 
> From your earlier post, you guys are gonna try MC and she said she's ending the affair now, so now would be the time for the VAR to see if she's still lying.
> 
> Even if you don't want to know if it was physical, you NEED to know simply to determine if she is still lying to you.
> 
> Your logic is flawed...are you for real? Get a VAR dude.


I see your point. My thought was if I found out through a VAR now and confronted her then she would lay low longer. But more importantly she would be on to that method of tracking her. I was thinking to use it after a month of R, to see if she was being honest at that point. IDK, I am no expert in these things.





Chaparral said:


> Re her texting. She may use apps that leave no record.


I know. But most apps leave a trail in the backup for IOS systems. Even if you delete the message. 

I had actually hijacked her messaging. I was getting all her texts in real time. It does suck going on a walk by yourself outside and see the texting light up between them within 5 minutes of walking out the door. Or sitting at work watching them talk to each other in real time. I did that for a couple of days. They did get suspicious (the hijack caused some weird delays) and then they went silent. Sure enough, she had downloaded a different message service. I confronted her that night. 

Tonight I am going to tell her she needs to give me the password to her AT&T mobile account. They keep phone logs for the last 16 months. I am going to go through that to determine how long the affair was going on. Also, see if she is still calling him.

But, I guess that kind of goes back to the VAR thing. Once, I get that AT&T account details she will no longer use the phone to call him. I guess "spy" methods are really only good for one shot. To me the VAR is pretty good, but I wanted to use that avenue when I *really* wanted to be sure the affair was over. After we really tried to reconcile. I just dont want to use the VAR now, and then have her be on to that method of survillance now.

I am open to divorce and have no desire to be a door mat.





tom67 said:


> Razgor
> Leave work early today and go see his wife.
> You will regret it if you don't.


I am leaving early from work today to check if she is really going to a personal trainer....

It was a pain to hunt down the address without asking her.



intuitionoramiwrong said:


> Didn't we just have a troll thread from a "razor" that sounded like this?
> 
> I don't want to assume that is happening again...just a concern before people put a ton of effort into their replies.


Not a troll. I never heard of this website before Monday. And I have read a lot of the threads here since then. Depressing really. I do not know how you guys can stay here for so long posting. I would never be able to trust anyone again.


----------



## walkonmars

I'll chime in to second the opinion that you VAR the car now as Chap has suggested. Under the front seat with heavy duty velcro. 

Expose to the OMW and you'll have a better chance at discovering what's what. 

It's also a good idea to get the books Elegirl recommended. 

Tell your wife she needs to get another job asap.


----------



## anchorwatch

You're right she can always go to another phone. So don't outsmart yourself. Now is the time, not latter. Use the VAR. It's the most cost and effort efficient method. Put it under her car seat, where she can't see it, attach it with heavy duty Velcro. Don't ever tell her how you got any info. Contact Weightlifter by PM for instructions or search his post on VARs. 

The other most effective method is telling the OMW. That gives you another set of eyes and ears on the A. It keeps him busy with his wife not yours. It also lets him know you do exist, you're no longer oblivious to his advances, you're watching him, and you mean business.

Dito on her losing the job. Every time she sees him, those emotional chemicals all rush back to her brain, starting the clock allover again. You can't compete with that unless she gets through withdrawal.


----------



## tulsy

razgor said:


> ... My thought was if I found out through a VAR now and confronted her then she would lay low longer. But more importantly she would be on to that method of tracking her. I was thinking to use it after a month of R, to see if she was being honest at that point. IDK, I am no expert in these things.
> 
> ....I am open to divorce and have no desire to be a door mat.
> 
> I am leaving early from work today to check if she is really going to a personal trainer........


You NEVER have to tell her how you know, just that you know. If you have a VAR with the evidence you need, then what? Like, what would you do? Why would you feel like you had to tell her how you arrived at the conclusion? 

After a month of R??? 
So, what's your plan, are you hoping she'll slowly shut-down her affair during the next 30 days, then you'll check and see if it's really over??

How is that NOT a doormat? Dude, ACT NOW!

So what are you going to do if you find out she's lying today about the personal trainer? Have you thought this through?


----------



## Chaparral

Something I did not tell you and others now have, you never, ever give up your sources of information. You never tell exactly what you know either. Its sufficient to say I know you are still involved with posom and blah blah blah.

The var is so you can tell if you are lying. Though it may take more time, a var will usually tell you within just a few days where her head is. Check it every day. Few occasions have gone much further though in this case she knows you are on to her.

It almost never happens that the affair stops after the first confrontation whether its a pa or ea. They are in love(fog) and see each other every day. Be realistic, how would you feel f you just had to give up your wife overnight but still saw her every day?


----------



## razgor

anchorwatch said:


> The other most effective method is telling the OMW. That gives you another set of eyes and ears on the A. It keeps him busy with his wife not yours. It also lets him know you do exist, you're no longer oblivious to his advances, you're watching him, and you mean business.
> 
> Dito on her losing the job. Every time she sees him, those emotional chemicals all rush back to her brain, starting the clock allover again. You can't compete with that unless she gets through withdrawal.



The OMW is already suspicious. I picked that up in the text messages. And I remember a conversation with my wife around X-Mas when she had mentioned his wife was a little jealous nutty. That came out because I had asked why her co-worker never brought his wife to social gathering.

Funny, how these little tid bits come back to you. 




tulsy said:


> You NEVER have to tell her how you know, just that you know. If you have a VAR with the evidence you need, then what? Like, what would you do? Why would you feel like you had to tell her how you arrived at the conclusion?
> 
> After a month of R???
> So, what's your plan, are you hoping she'll slowly shut-down her affair during the next 30 days, then you'll check and see if it's really over??
> 
> How is that NOT a doormat? Dude, ACT NOW!
> 
> So what are you going to do if you find out she's lying today about the personal trainer? Have you thought this through?


IDK, it seemed like a good plan to check really throughly a month latter. 

As for trainer, I will confront tonight about it - if she is not there. I assume that is the best course of action.



Chaparral said:


> Something I did not tell you and others now have, you never, ever give up your sources of information. You never tell exactly what you know either. Its sufficient to say I know you are still involved with posom and blah blah blah.
> 
> The var is so you can tell if you are lying. Though it may take more time, a var will usually tell you within just a few days where her head is. Check it every day. Few occasions have gone much further though in this case she knows you are on to her.
> 
> It almost never happens that the affair stops after the first confrontation whether its a pa or ea. They are in love(fog) and see each other every day. Be realistic, how would you feel f you just had to give up your wife overnight but still saw her every day?


I see your point. And I want to know if she was being sincere or just covering her tracks.

And I know an affair just can not be turned off on the drop of a hat. It went through this BS with an old gf a long time ago.

I did screw up when I confronted her and told her I was reading cheating websites. Worried she may find this. Or start looking into the tips people use to catch cheaters.


----------



## tom67

Follow her and find out. Do not confront act stupid.
Contact his wife then you will find out if the affair is still going on because he will contact her and if she is mad at you well...


----------



## Graywolf2

Never tell her the source of your information (VAR, GPS, etc.). She will think you hired a PI and it will drive her crazy. Also don’t reveal all you know. Hold some back and use it as a test. Will she confess stuff she thinks you don’t know about or lie?


----------



## Divinely Favored

razgor said:


> Thanks for the comments. Very blunt, but honest.
> 
> I have just uncovered the affair - less then a week.
> 
> I have looked at the 180 and it seems like a good step.
> 
> I am still trying to map a path forward for myself. I have not taken contacting the OW off the table. I am just not ready to do it yet. I have not told anyone about it yet. I am not ready to talk to another mans wife about an affair.
> 
> Since the confrontation she has been very open with her phone. Leaving it unattended and such. And she offered to let me look at it anytime.
> 
> Grr, drives me crazy. Either means she is really trying or she switched to a seperate phone. Or just laying low.
> 
> BTW, does anyone know what the terms GNG and GNH mean. They were used at the end of a text stream - when they stopped texting for the day. He said GNG, she responded
> 
> I am considering a VAR, but now seems like too soon to do it. I would think she would be much more careful now.


_Posted via Mobile Device_. GOOD NIGHT GEORGEOUS, GOOD NIGHT HANDSOME


----------



## razgor

Well, she was at the gym. And no OM car. One small victory I guess. What a roller coaster. I felt good she was not there, then I felt pitiful for feeling good about that. This was the first day they worked together since I confronted her. And I kind of expected an after work get together. Man this sucks.

I also feel really bad cause I have sent more time trying to track down a cheat in the last week then I did trying to improve my marriage over the last year. But too late for that now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## razgor

Divinely Favored said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_. GOOD NIGHT GEORGEOUS, GOOD NIGHT HANDSOME


Yes, I am going to ask her what that means tonight. I want to hear her say it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Graywolf2

razgor said:


> Yes, I am going to ask her what that means tonight. I want to hear her say it.


I will give you her answer now: "That’s just innocent flirting. Why do you insist on making nothing into something? How do you know that anyway?"


----------



## Chaparral

razgor said:


> Yes, I am going to ask her what that means tonight. I want to hear her say it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't do this unless she knows you have already read the texts.

You are in the battle of your life. Telling her about the cheating websites was a mistake. We all made mistakes. You have to think like James Bond. Loose lips sink ships.

Have you downloaded the mmslp book linked to below? You need to do that as much as anything else.

Did she come straight home from the gym? Did you stay long enough to see her leave?


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, how long has she been going to the gym. People in affairs like tolook better, gyms, plastic surgery, new underwear you haven't seen her wear, dressing nicer at work,, more makeup.

First day she's back to work with the dude, God I wish had gotten the var.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

razgor said:


> I see your point. My thought was if I found out through a VAR now and confronted her then she would lay low longer. But more importantly she would be on to that method of tracking her. I was thinking to use it after a month of R, to see if she was being honest at that point. IDK, I am no expert in these things.


Why would she be on to that method of tracking her unless you told her about it? You can have the VAR in her car, download it every day and put it back, and not listen to it for a month, if you really think a month is going to make a difference. But why prolong the pain when you can find out now?

The point is not to confront her with a recording. The point is to know if she's lying to you or not. If something bad turns up on the recording, all you need to tell her is "get lost, reconciliation isn't working." You don't need to tell her why you think that.



razgor said:


> Tonight I am going to tell her she needs to give me the password to her AT&T mobile account. They keep phone logs for the last 16 months. I am going to go through that to determine how long the affair was going on. Also, see if she is still calling him.


And when she says "no?" Or "I need my privacy?" Or "Stop pressuring me!" What will you do?



razgor said:


> But, I guess that kind of goes back to the VAR thing. Once, I get that AT&T account details she will no longer use the phone to call him. I guess "spy" methods are really only good for one shot. To me the VAR is pretty good, but I wanted to use that avenue when I *really* wanted to be sure the affair was over. After we really tried to reconcile. I just dont want to use the VAR now, and then have her be on to that method of survillance now.


Well, even if they stop talking on that phone, she may get another one and keep it secret. And a VAR in her car will still capture anything they say if he gets in the car.

She will only be on to it if you tell her. If it doesn't catch anything, maybe she IS being sincere. If reconciliation is successful, you never have to tell her. If it does record something naughty, you know reconciliation will never work because she's still lying to you, and you file for divorce. You still never have to tell her.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Razgor, sorry you are going through this.

Here are my observations:


Never reveal your sources of information.

She has lied to you and also trickle-truthed you. You cannot blindly believe what she says. From now on you will always have to verify from time to time - good to have the VAR in place from now.

This is the biggie: you are 99.99% sure it was PA yet she still insists that it was EA! I know you said that you didn't care and both were equally bad, but the real point is YOU CANNOT GO TO MC WHILE SHE IS STILL LYING TO YOU! You do not have the whole truth yet. You either continue digging deep or you rug-sweep. This to me, is also a reason for the VAR. You need to get to the bottom of this ASAP.

I still do not see any proactive acts of remorse from her. Besides accepting that she did wrong, does she proactively work to put your mind at ease and help you wreak havoc on the POSOM ?

You should wreak HAVOC on the POSOM! Expose to his wife, employers etc. put him on CV (send us the link by PM and we will drive the count up so that anyone who googles his name, will see it). Report him to the appropriate authorities about misconduct & lack of professional ethics (basically try and make sure he never works as a MC again).

This is not over yet - you still have work to do before you consider R or forgive & forget.

My tuppence worth! Stay strong.


----------



## Dyokemm

"I am not ready to talk to another mans wife about an affair."

razgor,

This POS had been emotionally flirting with your WW, and almost for sure having sex with her as well, and you are afraid to talk to his wife about an A?

You better start fighting hard here, my friend, or you are gonna get steamrolled by your cheating wife and her scumbag lover.

All he has to do everyday is commiserate with your WW and help her strategize how to keep knowledge of the A contained and take it underground.

Tell his already suspicious BW and give him something else to worry about.

He will almost assuredly throw your WW under the bus in a desperate attempt to save himself.

This will be the end of Fantasyland for her, and she will see that she was just getting used for a piece of a**.

Expose ASAP and then start DEMANDING that she tell you the extent of her betrayal, and inform her it will be confirmed with a poly so she better get everything out first if she wants to avoid losing her M and family.

Instead of sitting around waiting for the A to end and wondering if it really is done....KILL IT NOW BY EXPOSING TO HIS BW.

This is the most effective tool you have for ending the A and you are not using it.


----------



## lone and cautious

Yes, don't let this man get caught. Don't give the other man's wife the courtesy of letting her know her husband's cheating activities. I mean, you're not responsible for his marriage just like he was not responsible for yours......

Seriously man, does this NOT piss you off?! Making this guy suffer would be on my main to do list! You spend time, money, effort and emotional stock in getting this woman to marry you and you're letting the cookie jar thief get away scott free?! No way man, you're not letting her get away and getting your stuff squared away. 

Be courteous and let the other man's wife know.


----------



## weightlifter

Someone post my standard instruction set. It has all the settings for the VAR.

Gng gnh. I immediately thought.
Got nasty gonnorhea
Got nasty herpes


----------



## weightlifter

Intel instructions. WAKE UP!

paste below;
Your wife is acting funny. Her phone and email suddenly have passwords you don't know. She shuts down phone apps or changes windows on the computer whenever you enter the room. She is suddenly staying out until 2 to 5 in the morning. She has new single friends. She has lost weight and is dressing hotter to boot. Her ex contacted her 3 weeks ago and she wants “to meet to catch up at some public place” Any of this sound familiar? If your wife comes home from an alone time does she immediately change liners, change panties possibly even immediately laundering them?, shower? This can be an after the fact clean up. 

If you are reading this your gut is going crazy. “Relax”, in that there is a high liklihood that you are not crazy at least. “Your gut” is your basic instinct from the caveman period. There is something up with your mate. It is part of your mind built into you and in your DNA. You probably cant sleep. You are losing weight like crazy and are not hungry. Well if you are reading this and that is 90% of you reading this if its your first time... You are embarking on what is probably going to be the worst time of your life.

Chin up, yes I know it is damn near impossible to believe now, but I and the people at TAM here have taken dozens of men through this process. Some reconcile, most dont in the long run so be aware. Most of us hang around this grim grim place for a sense of “pay it forward” and “getting at the truth” Even in divorce, the long run the majority find love again... yes really. Often selecting a far far better future companion. Read poster BFF for a thread of disaster, divorce, recovery, and a new wonderful woman in his life. Younger and hotter, yes, but also one with better boundaries, often a far far better personality match. Oh and they get to go through that first time with her after the first I love you's have been exchanged. Just know, that for the majority, even if the marriage crashes, in six months, a year, maybe two you will wonder how you got so far so fast and how great your new life is. You will also be MUCH MUCH stronger as a person.

So. Here are your instructions. Do this now. I dont mean next week. I mean make something up within the next day and GET IT DONE! Not looking will only prolong your agony.
Rule 1 for this.
SHUT UP. Eyes open. YOUR mouth closed. confronting only makes them better at hiding. 
Rule 2 for this.
SHUT UP. Eyes open. YOUR mouth closed. confronting only makes them better at hiding. 
Rule 3 for this.
SHUT UP. Eyes open. YOUR mouth closed. confronting only makes them better at hiding. 

NO MORE CONFRONTS!! Play dumb husband for a bit. Dont drive her further underground! Soft confronts with little evidence RARELY WORK AND ONLY MAKE GETTING AT THE TRUTH HARDER!!! THIS PROLONGS YOUR AGONY! 

Buy 2 sony ICDPX312 or ICDPX333 voice activated recorders. Best Buy sells them for like 50 bucks. DO NOT BUY a cheap VAR. SONY SONY SONY. USE LITHIUM batteries. We have examples of 25 hour recordings using them on these sony recorders. My icon here IS a Sony ICDPX312. No I do not have stock in nor work for Sony.

Setup instructions are on page 19. Also good stuff on page 31.
Use 44K bit rate for balancing file size vs quality DO NOT USE 8K!!!!! Simply put. The higher the quality the better the sound and 8K sucks. ALSO. The higher the quality the more you can manipulate the mp3 in Audacity.
Set VOR "on" see page 38
See page 40 for adding memory if necessary
Play with it yourself to get familiar. TEST IT OUT 
Turn off the beep feature. Its on one of the menus. You can even play prevent defense by going to a dollar store, buying uber-cheapie earbuds, cut off the buds but put in the jack which will actually disable the speaker for additional protection.

Go to Walmart and buy heavy duty velcro.
This is one item: Velcro Heavy-Duty Hook and Loop Fastener VEK90117: Office : Walmart.com
also
Purchase VELCRO Hook and Loop Fasteners, Sticky-Back, for less at Walmart.com. Save money. Live better.
The velcro is usually in the fabric section or less often in the aisle with the fasteners like screws. The velcro pack is mostly blue with a yellow top. Clear pack shows the vecro color which is black or white. 

Use the velcro to attach the var under her seat UP INSIDE. SECURE IT WELL!!!!!! So well even a big bump wont knock it off. attach one side HD velcro from Walmart to back. USE BIG PIECE
attach other side HD velcro again UP INSIDE car seat. ATTACH THE CRAP out of it. It needs to stay put going over big potholes or railroad tracks.

Put the second VAR in whatever room she uses to talk in when you are not around. If you are a typical man, use your size advantage to put it someplace she cant reach, even on a chair. Beware spring cleaning season if she does it.

I recommend exporting the sound files to your comp. The recorder is very cumbersome for playback.

Amazon has a pen VAR that can be placed in a purse or other small place to get remote conversations. Yes the pen works.

IMPORTANT warning. If you hear another man and perhaps a little kissing or activity... STOP Listening and have a trusted friend listen and tell you what went on. Knowing she is a cheat will kill you. Hearing her moan while another man is inside her will murder you to your very soul!!!!!! You are not strong enough to hear that. Dont try it. I know what I am talking about in this.

If you need clean up the recordings get Audacity. Its free from the internet. I have used it on var work for others here to remove things like engine noise. If needed, I have done var work for four men here. RDMU is the only one who has released some of the confidentiality. 

Lets be very clear about what the VAR is for and is not for. It will not be court admissible evidence. It is not for the confrontation. IT IS TO GET YOU AHEAD OF THE AFFAIR so you can gain other real evidence by knowing the who and when. NEVER MENTION YOUR VAR EVIDENCE. As far as the cheater is concerned, they were seen by a PI or something NOT your VAR!! 

The ezoom GPS has been found to be easy to buy at Radio shack and useful. There is even a locator webpage you can track with. Amazon sells a semen detection kit called checkmate.

Look for a burner phone. This is a second phone from a prepay service just used for cheating communications. That is often why wives let the husband "see their phone" They don't use their main phone for cheating purposes.

There is an app out there called teensafe. Its for both Iphone and Android. It monitors texts, GPS and facebook. Needs no jailbreak. Not perfect and delayed but no jailbreak required.

Look for apps on her phone like words with friends. It has a non traceable texting feature.
Here is a list 25 Apps to Help You Cheat On Your Girlfriend | Complex

If he uses chrome or firefox, there is probably a list of saved passwords you can look at. Even if his email isn't saved there, people usually only use a couple of different passwords, so one from the list might work. 

For firefox it's Tools -> Options -> Security -> Saved Passwords

For Chrome it's the little box with three bars in the top right -> Settings - Show advanced settings -> Managed saved passwords

If paternity is in doubt, (gredit graywolf2) SNP Microarray: Unlike amniocentesis, a non-invasive prenatal paternity test does not require a needle inserted into the mother’s womb. The SNP microarray procedure uses new technology that involves preserving and analyzing the baby’s DNA found naturally in the mother’s bloodstream. The test is accurate, 99.9%, using a tiny quantity of DNA — as little as found in a single cell. 

Credit john1068 
Is her internet browsers set up to use Google as the default search engine? And does she use a gmail account? If so, she can delete here browser history all she wants, that only deletes the history that is localbin the browser itself...

On ANY computer, navigate to https://google.com/history. Log in using her gmail credentials and you'll have all history right there. Cant be deleted unless your wife logs in this same way...she'd only be deleting Chrome, IE, or Firefox history, not the Google history when deleting within the browser itself. 

There does not appear to be a function within the Android OS that allows the recall of deleted info as is found on IOS. However, even on Android, When a text is deleted, the OS simply "loses" the address to where it is on the memory chip, but it's still there. 

Go to your computer and navigate to Dr. Fone for Android @ Dr.Fone for Android - Android Phone & Tablet Data Recovery SoftwareAndroid Phone Data Recovery.

You can download a trial version if you're operating system is XP/Vista/Win 7/Win 8 all on either 32 or 64 bit.

Download the program to your computer, open it, connect the Android phone to the computer via the micro USB cable and follow the instructions on the Dr. Fone program. You can recover deleted SMS, MMS, photos (yes, this includes SnapChats), vids, and documents.

Not everything is recoverable because the operating system continues to overwrite the data so if you don't recover this data on a regular basis, you may miss some pieces...

But there are also many Android apps that store deleted files and texts, even some that allow you to download and HID the app (ex. ). 

They are also in her Spotlight Search...don't even need to connect to a computer. All deleted texts are still held onto. Type in the contact TELEPHONE number and every text, even the deleted ones, will show up in the search.

IOS 7 from any home screen put your finger in the middle of the screen and swipe downward. Enter the telephone number and start reading the hits.

IOS 6 from the first home screen, swipe left, enter the telephone number and start reading the hits. 

Credit rodphoto 01162014 
After researching the web for countless hours about software to find deleted messages on my wife's iphone I figured out this super easy method.

From the home screen swipe left to right until the spotlight page appears. Its a screen with the key board at bottom and a box at the top that says "search iphone" type your typical search words, anything sexual etc... All past messeges containing the search word will appear on a list, deleted or not. You'll only get the first line but that is usually enough. Just busted my wife again doing this a few days ago!

Rugs: swipe left on your first page of the main menu.

"spotlight search" under settings -> general -> spotlight search has to show "messages" as ticked. 

Right here, right now: Taking screenshots on iOS devices -> hold down home button and press sleep button. The screenshot will be placed under your photo album.

Also there is an app to "stitch" messages like a panoramic photo, but only for iPad. go to app store and search "stitch". Damn it's 4 am. i need to go to bed. 

Note that this applies only to Spotlight Search in IOS 6 and lower. For IOS 7 running on Iphone 4 and 5, put your finger in the middle of any of the home screens and swipe downward. 

Type in the search string you want (telephone number, contact name, keyword, etc) and it will search every instance in the iPhone where that appears. 

You may FIRST want to go into the Settings>General>Spotlight Search and then check or uncheck the areas that you want to search - make certain that "messages" and "mail" are CHECKED or else your search will not look into these areas. The same info is on the spot light on the ipad too ! If the settings isnt checked off, you can find all the same history! 

Credit tacoma 03072014

This Google search history page weightlifter mentioned here doesn't just record the search term it records everything spoken into Google Now by voice command. There is a text read out for everything spoken into the phone through Google Now and since Androids later versions have integrated Google Now right into the OS just about everything spoken into an Android phone is saved at https://google.com/history

Commands to call me, entire voice texts, everything said into the phone is right here. I don't even know how it could be deleted if you wanted to. Considering almost everyone has an Android phone and voice command is becoming more popular this is a nice tool for a BS. It even has every Google Maps/Navigator GPS search saved.


----------



## happyman64

Razgor

Nothing will change until you decide to change things up.

She could have asked you for a divorce.

Does the OM & OWM have children???

HM


----------



## Noble1

Sorry to read about your situation.

Listen to the advice being shown here. Sadly, the advice is sound as it has been tested too many times in real life.

The way your story reads, it seems your wife has not yet had any/much of a consequence for cheating on you.

This must change and she must feel the affects and results of stepping outside the marriage.

Exposing the affair is one step and a necessary one at that.

Keep strong.

Good luck.


----------



## martyc47

razgor said:


> I thought about blowing it out. By exposing the OM to his family and job. But that would ruin her job as well.
> 
> Like it or not, one way or another, no matter the outcome this woman is going to be part of my life forever. If I go nuclear then I am afraid it will just "poison the well" between us. And while it will give me great satisfaction, my two children will suffer the most.


This is just fear talking.
Sure, we all probably feel this way at first, but Not Exposing is going to have far more harmful consequences.

SHE "poisoned the well" already.

The kids? YOU are going to make them suffer by NOT exposing, when it appears you are determined to FALSE-R with their mom while giving her permission to bang another dude. They will pick up on that in some way. Daddy's some guy with no boundaries and no needs, who is fine with Mommy Loving Uncle Co-worker.


----------



## sandc

Please follow weightlifter's instructions. Please.


----------



## weightlifter

two things amaze me.
1) How many people I post this specifically for do not follow through. Time will tell on this one. I give an explicit step by step set with links. I cant go to Best Buy and Walmart for them.
2) How many PMs I get from people with zero or one posts who actually do follow my instructions who poached from someone elses instructions.


----------



## sandc

weightlifter said:


> two things amaze me.
> 1) How many people I post this specifically for do not follow through. Time will tell on this one. I give an explicit step by step set with links. I cant go to Best Buy and Walmart for them.
> 2) How many PMs I get from people with zero or one posts who actually do follow my instructions who poached from someone elses instructions.


It's a lot like being a pastor.


----------



## convert

sandc said:


> It's a lot like being a pastor.



Weightlifter a pastor (I would go to his church)


----------



## sandc

convert said:


> Weightlifter a pastor (I would go to his church)




I mean as far as getting the word out there and the people who need it don't hear it. And those you would least suspect respond to it.


----------



## weightlifter

Its funny. Ill get PMs like. such and such a menu on the VAR is not appearing... People asking pretty advanced stuff.

Even a few. "Thanks dude. It worked. Took a while but the D is final X weeks from now. Havent dated yet but Im getting there. There is this pretty woman..."

31 wives and 3 husbands that I know about + no idea how many I dont know about... Have no idea how they were caught.

#Vincent Price evil laugh


----------



## BostonBruins32

*"SHUT UP. Eyes open. YOUR mouth closed. confronting only makes them better at hiding. 
Rule 2 for this.
SHUT UP. Eyes open. YOUR mouth closed. confronting only makes them better at hiding. 
Rule 3 for this.
SHUT UP. Eyes open. YOUR mouth closed. confronting only makes them better at hiding. 

NO MORE CONFRONTS!! Play dumb husband for a bit. Dont drive her further underground! Soft confronts with little evidence RARELY WORK AND ONLY MAKE GETTING AT THE TRUTH HARDER!!! THIS PROLONGS YOUR AGONY! "*

This is so important.. if the affair sinks underground, you're toast. I should add that its also important to only check things (snoop) when you are very certain she will not notice. IE, if you go through her phone or ipad, then you need to be certain she wont suddenly walk in or notice it somehow. 

I have had some trust issues and have quietly monitored my wife's facebook and phone records. Its terrible to feel the need to. But my greater point is that you have to pick and choose your battles. if she goes out to get the mail or do something in the garage, I don't check it then. You need to pick your spots so you can be thorough and not not pressured with her seeing you do it.


----------



## sandc

weightlifter said:


> Its funny. Ill get PMs like. such and such a menu on the VAR is not appearing... People asking pretty advanced stuff.
> 
> Even a few. "Thanks dude. It worked. Took a while but the D is final X weeks from now. Havent dated yet but Im getting there. There is this pretty woman..."
> 
> 31 wives and 3 husbands that I know about + no idea how many I dont know about... Have no idea how they were caught.
> 
> #Vincent Price evil laugh


You need some stencils for the side of your computer a la WWII aircraft kills.

Sorry, threadjack over.


----------



## wranglerman

sandc said:


> I mean as far as getting the word out there and the people who need it don't hear it. And those you would least suspect respond to it.


It was WLs VAR advice in a thread that prompted me to buy the advised model, it saved my a$$ big time a year ago!

That and reading how BHs have had to use them to cover their a$$es against lying WWs who threaten cops an battery charges if they don't fall back in line!

Keep posting it, it helps a lot more folk than you might realize!


----------



## Machiavelli

Elvis has left the building.


----------



## Dyokemm

"Elvis has left the building."

It happens around here quire frequently, and almost always with the guys who are in denial or desperate to do anything to R and 'get back to the way things were before'.

Personally, I think most of them run off to some of the other infidelity sites where staying to fix a M no matter what is almost a religious doctrine.

They get comfort and sympathy there instead of hard facts they need to face.

It makes me think that these guys are looking for someone to validate what they already want to do instead of get real advice, even if the result/info is not something pleasant to hear.


----------



## barbados

Razor,

Read Road Scholar's thread, especially the beginning. Don't end up like him. He had a sexless, 5 month false R, followed by now being in R but with the WW still refusing any kind of timeline and still partially rug sweeping things. This is where you are heading.

The OMW needs to be contacted ASAP, because she will probably have more info than you do.

The A is underground now but still active. COUNT ON IT !

And know this : THE AFFAIR IS ON GOING AS LONG AS THEY WORK TOGETHER ! PERIOD !


----------



## razgor

Hey everyone, still here. 

Just an update. Me and the Wife had seen a MC. The wife made the appointment, she has changed her job schedule so no longer working with the OM(they have multiple offices), in order to do that she had to tell her manager and good friend about the affair. She has been very open with her phone - leaving it unattended. She told me to install whatever software I want on it. And she will hand it to me anytime I ask for it. 


I get this is an infidelity section, and you all see a lot of crap and heart breaks through here. But, my marriage has been on the rocks for a long. And a lot of that is my fault. I really dont want to go into the details here, but she would have been completely justified to divorce me. And I really feel bad for some of the things I have done over the years. 

We have been talking and she agreed that she should have divorced me, instead of having the affair. We both agree to either work it out and be happy or divorce. No more running parallel lives. But we have not been happy together in a long time.

So, I have turned my focus to myself. Exercising and working through my own issues. Issues that need to be addressed whether I am married or not. So I do feel betrayed by the affair, I also have to admit I treated her like crap for a long time. 

So for us, forgiveness and reconcilation is a two way street. IDK, if either one of us can do it. So my plan is too see the MC, get my issues resolved and go one day at a time with our marriage.

@weightlifter: I used to be *really* into lifting. Trying to get back into it. So depressing to be lifting these sorry weights. Ha, gotta start somewhere.

Edit: Also at weightlifter. Thanks for that detailed instructions. I saved that actually. Going to save it for when my kids are old enough to date!


----------



## Dyokemm

razgor,

No one will fault you for wanting to save your M.

And everyone will agree that long term happiness and reconciliation will indeed require the pre-A problems to be addressed.

But make sure you do not accept any blameshifting from her on the A itself.

That is all on her.

If you accept the blameshifting and rugsweep what she has done, she will fail to address HER issues properly...primarily figuring out WHY she could allow herself to deceive you and betray her M.

No matter how unhappy the M was, she had many other options rather than stabbing her H in the back with a POS.

And part of her facing up to what she has done is to be completely honest with you about it, so you more fully understand her issues and also know what it is you are being asked to forgive.

Has she been more forthcoming on the extent of the A?

You mentioned before, there were hints in the texts it was more than an EA.

Has she come clean about this or is she still engaging in lying and deception?

R will not work if she is...this cannot just turn into 'fixing' your problems prior to the A which made her unhappy and the M rocky.

She has to come clean and deal with her own decisions/choices too.

I'm rooting for you, but make sure you are strong on this point.


----------



## Jambri

razgor said:


> Hey everyone, still here.
> 
> Just an update. Me and the Wife had seen a MC. The wife made the appointment, she has changed her job schedule so no longer working with the OM(they have multiple offices), in order to do that she had to tell her manager and good friend about the affair. She has been very open with her phone - leaving it unattended. She told me to install whatever software I want on it. And she will hand it to me anytime I ask for it.
> 
> 
> I get this is an infidelity section, and you all see a lot of crap and heart breaks through here. But, my marriage has been on the rocks for a long. And a lot of that is my fault. I really dont want to go into the details here, but she would have been completely justified to divorce me. And I really feel bad for some of the things I have done over the years.
> 
> We have been talking and she agreed that she should have divorced me, instead of having the affair. We both agree to either work it out and be happy or divorce. No more running parallel lives. But we have not been happy together in a long time.
> 
> So, I have turned my focus to myself. Exercising and working through my own issues. Issues that need to be addressed whether I am married or not. So I do feel betrayed by the affair, I also have to admit I treated her like crap for a long time.
> 
> So for us, forgiveness and reconcilation is a two way street. IDK, if either one of us can do it. So my plan is too see the MC, get my issues resolved and go one day at a time with our marriage.
> 
> @weightlifter: I used to be *really* into lifting. Trying to get back into it. So depressing to be lifting these sorry weights. Ha, gotta start somewhere.
> 
> Edit: Also at weightlifter. Thanks for that detailed instructions. I saved that actually. Going to save it for when my kids are old enough to date!


Hope for the best but my guess is you'll be back here in 6 months. Once a cheater always a cheater. That's a saying for a reason


----------



## weightlifter

Was this one ever resolved EA vs PA? What was the most she would admit to?


----------



## JustGrinding

OP, people here are trying to avail you of knowledge painfully gained through experience. This experience flows, point-by-point, through these threads with a consistency that borders on being acceptable as the laws of physics.

- A WW that admits to an EA was involved in a a PA that, at least, rose to kissing and groping.

- A WW that admits to kissing her AP has definitely engaged in sexual contact.

- a WW that admits a BJ has been involved in numerous sex acts with her AP.

- A WW that admits to having sex once has had sex with the AP on numerous occasions.

- A WW that admits multiple sexual encounters will downplay them to try to hide the true level of degradation to which she was exposed.

- Beyond this, it gets f****d up to the level of depravity imaginable within the human construct.

These people are trying to help you. If your wife admitted to kissing her AP, she f****d him. That's what the law of probabilities extract.

Cheaters are liars, and liars are cheaters. Fact. Do with it what you will.

I've been in your shoes and want you to handle this more effectively than did I. Thats what the rest of these posters want.

I feel terrible for what you're going to go through. I'm sorry, buddy . . .


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward."

Some people just have to live through it to learn from it. Wisdom will eventually find him...

There's not much we can due until the inevitable happens and he posts about it here, again.


----------



## wranglerman

Jambri said:


> Hope for the best but my guess is you'll be back here in 6 months. Once a cheater always a cheater. That's a saying for a reason


He will no doubt stick his head up his a$$ and hope for the best.

But you are a little bit flawed with the "once a cheater always a cheater" statement, yes it does so often seem to be the case but there a a lot of "once upon a time" folk out there too, they stepped out once and never made the same mistake again.

The seeming difference there is that those that continue to cheat do not face the harsh consequences and the depths of rock bottom that was needed to make them change their ways.

Anyhoooo.

Wonder how this is all going for OP right now?


----------



## Chaparral

wranglerman said:


> He will no doubt stick his head up his a$$ and hope for the best.
> 
> But you are a little bit flawed with the "once a cheater always a cheater" statement, yes it does so often seem to be the case but there a a lot of "once upon a time" folk out there too, they stepped out once and never made the same mistake again.
> 
> The seeming difference there is that those that continue to cheat do not face the harsh consequences and the depths of rock bottom that was needed to make them change their ways.
> 
> Anyhoooo.
> 
> Wonder how this is all going for OP right now?


If the two cheaters are still working together, he hasn't made any progress at all.


----------



## wranglerman

Chaparral said:


> If the two cheaters are still working together, he hasn't made any progress at all.


Agree completely!

Could be a good exit strategy for him to play as a means to saving face?

I mean, he discovers her betrayal, he confronts her about it, makes it known through limitted exposure to close friends/family, makes certain rules knowing she'll break them and allowing contact through work he gets to walk away head high with little or no drama, file for D and job jobbed?

Emotional attachment is his only potential downfall?

Assuming he wants to end it fast and walk away with the whole "I gave it my best shot at staying together and working it out but she did it again". This is by far the safest bet that he can use it all as a means of manipulation to bring her down hard and still walk if he wants?


----------



## BetrayedDad

wranglerman said:


> But you are a little bit flawed with the "once a cheater always a cheater" statement


I tend to agree with Jambri also. It's no different than someone who is an alcoholic. Sure they may never have another drink but they will always be an alcoholic because they have to fight to stay in control with their temptations. Cheating is addicting because it's exciting and that strong urge is always there. That's why a cheater is far more likely to do it again than someone whose never cheated.


----------



## razgor

Dyokemm said:


> razgor,
> 
> No one will fault you for wanting to save your M.
> 
> And everyone will agree that long term happiness and reconciliation will indeed require the pre-A problems to be addressed.
> 
> But make sure you do not accept any blameshifting from her on the A itself.
> 
> That is all on her.
> 
> If you accept the blameshifting and rugsweep what she has done, she will fail to address HER issues properly...primarily figuring out WHY she could allow herself to deceive you and betray her M.
> 
> No matter how unhappy the M was, she had many other options rather than stabbing her H in the back with a POS.
> 
> And part of her facing up to what she has done is to be completely honest with you about it, so you more fully understand her issues and also know what it is you are being asked to forgive.
> 
> Has she been more forthcoming on the extent of the A?
> 
> You mentioned before, there were hints in the texts it was more than an EA.
> 
> Has she come clean about this or is she still engaging in lying and deception?
> 
> R will not work if she is...this cannot just turn into 'fixing' your problems prior to the A which made her unhappy and the M rocky.
> 
> She has to come clean and deal with her own decisions/choices too.
> 
> I'm rooting for you, but make sure you are strong on this point.



She has been a little more honest about the affair. The timeline expanded out a lot - to a year and a half. That was unprompted. She is still claiming there was no intercourse. Whatever.

I am focuing on my problems because it makes be feel better. And it is something I can control. She is doing certain things right, but I really don't feel ANY remorse from her. None. During our talks she even said she felt bad for the OMW, not me.

I was soo angry the next day I hardly spoke to her. Then she proceeds to get mad at me for being mad. 

If anything that is all I feel right now - just anger. When I am not angry I just feel detached. Going through the motions with her. I really don't see how I can get over it. Sure, I was a lousy husband. And I feel bad about that. But she lied to me every single day for a year and half. On family vacations, talking to him. Whenever I was not around she was texting/calling him. Our marriage had ups and downs before, but it totaly makes sense now why it has been down for so long. It really had no chance of recovering.

I am ready to leave her, but my two little kids are upset. They are a lot smarter then I would have thought. They pick up on things. Both are sleeping terrible. Heck, no one in the house is sleeping good. The oldest is drawing pictures of dad and mom love each other. She is asking weird questions, "does dad think mom is liar" and "why do kids get given up for adoption". I have tried to reassure them, but it sucks. 

I read talk about spying on her, and I don't want to do that. Not because I am scarred of what I will find out, because I don't want to be with someone that I have to do that with. Wonder where she goes, emails, and texts. This person is supposed to be a huge part of my life, and I doubt everything about her. Whats true, whats a lie. Even if we patch this up by some miracle, I still will always wonder about her. I will never be able to let my guard down.

And part of my kind of thinks that may be one of biggest downfalls. You can never let your guard down in a relationship.


----------



## Lostinthought61

if she not being remorseful towards you at all, than more likely than not she is still in a fog and she will really not get it until you hand her the divorce papers. I wish you the best of luck, for you and your children sake.


----------



## Philat

razgor said:


> She has been a little more honest about the affair. The timeline expanded out a lot - to a year and a half. That was unprompted. She is still claiming there was no intercourse. Whatever.


Sounds like you are aware that you are being trickle-truthed. This could go on for years if you let it (speaking from painful experience, as are so many others here).


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Well, if she still works with him, the affair is still going on.

I know you don't want to think that it hasn't gotten physical yet, but a year and a half, come on. What guy is going to hang in there for that length of time if there's no physical connection.

It more than likely has gone PA already. Even if it hasn't, it will.

Because they still work together!

You know what's worse than finding out that your spouse has been having sex with someone else? Realizing that you could have stopped it before it happened...


----------



## Chaparral

Time to ask her to take a polygraph. She's lying still. She isn't sorry. You have a long row to hoe.

If she won't quit working with him, game over.


----------



## Chaparral

You should at least get a sony var, put in her car and see if anything she is telling you is the truth.


----------



## tom67

Chaparral said:


> Time to ask her to take a polygraph. She's lying still. She isn't sorry. You have a long row to hoe.
> 
> If she won't quit working with him, game over.


To have any chance you have to contact his wife asap and yes she has to look for another job.


----------



## TRy

razgor said:


> She has been a little more honest about the affair. The timeline expanded out a lot - to a year and a half. That was unprompted. She is still claiming there was no intercourse.


 I noticed that you said "no intercourse" which is very specific. Does that mean that they kissed, had feel-out sessions, fingering, hand jobs, oral sex, or anal sex, but just did not have intercourse? In their dishonesty, cheaters play word games to minimize their actions.


----------



## badmemory

razgor said:


> I read talk about spying on her, and I don't want to do that. Not because I am scarred of what I will find out, because *I don't want to be with someone that I have to do that with. *.


The reality is, you *are* with someone you have to do that with. 

If there was any doubt that this was a PA, her confessing this has been going on for a year and a half - should have ended it. It's now moved to an insult to your intelligence for her not to admit it.


----------



## razgor

Xenote said:


> if she not being remorseful towards you at all, than more likely than not she is still in a fog and she will really not get it until you hand her the divorce papers. I wish you the best of luck, for you and your children sake.


Thank you. What hurts the most is destroying my childrens dreams. Knowing that in all likelyhood we will get a divorce and I will not see my children everday.



Philat said:


> Sounds like you are aware that you are being trickle-truthed. This could go on for years if you let it (speaking from painful experience, as are so many others here).


Yes, I defintely do not feel she is being honest.



Chaparral said:


> Time to ask her to take a polygraph. She's lying still. She isn't sorry. You have a long row to hoe.
> 
> If she won't quit working with him, game over.


She has switched schedules so they are in different offices. They will not be working together. For what it is worth.

In order to switch schedules she had to get the person she works for to switch schedules too. That person has been through this as well and seems to be a positive force in her life.



badmemory said:


> The reality is, you *are* with someone you have to do that with.
> 
> If there was any doubt that this was a PA, her confessing this has been going on for a year and a half - should have ended it. It's now moved to an insult to your intelligence for her not to admit it.


I feel the same way. But she is very admant that it was not full blown PA. But lying seems to be second nature to her now.

BTW, we had our first "homework" from the MC. It was to talk about the happy times in our marriage. I tried to stay from the vacations we had together over the last year. They are no longer happy thoughts. She brought up two trips that occurred during the affair. She said they did not text "much" during those times. Normally, when things were bad between us a vacation alone together would "rekindle" our marriage. It did not happen during these trips. I know why now. But it just triggered so much anger in me. I can remember being on the vacation and she was texting one of her girl friends supposedly. Like a punch in the gut.

She also felt we should not have any more of these talks until we see the MC again. Since it made me so angry. I tired to box up my anger, but I just could not.

Thanks for listening to my posts. It is funny, I have not told anyone I know about the affair. Only a couple of random people on the internet.

I have gotten the books people had recommended and I am going to spend a couple of days reading through them.


----------



## Lostinthought61

this is not your shame but hers, don't own something that is not yours...yes you are obviously involved but this is her shame, you need to speak out and mention to others of her shame...she is being defiant, as if to say you drove me to the others of another...bull crap plain and simple bull crap. does the other woman know?


----------



## mahike

OK we are not positive that it was a PA but what I messed up on was not taking two very big steps.

1 expose the A to family and friends
2 file for D

MY wife did not really come clean until she had pain from the exposure and she really really belived I was going to D.

Also let her know that she does not make the call on what you talk about or when you talk about it. That is your call she gave that up when she cheated. 

She has to know that you are firm on that point


----------



## tom67

mahike said:


> OK we are not positive that it was a PA but what I messed up on was not taking two very big steps.
> 
> 1 expose the A to family and friends
> 2 file for D
> 
> MY wife did not really come clean until she had pain from the exposure and she really really belived I was going to D.
> 
> Also let her know that she does not make the call on what you talk about or when you talk about it. That is your call she gave that up when she cheated.
> 
> She has to know that you are firm on that point


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## aug

razgor said:


> I am ready to leave her, but my two little kids are upset. They are a lot smarter then I would have thought. They pick up on things. Both are sleeping terrible. Heck, no one in the house is sleeping good. The oldest is drawing pictures of dad and mom love each other. She is asking weird questions, "does dad think mom is liar" and "why do kids get given up for adoption". I have tried to reassure them, but it sucks.



When they ask these questions, may I suggest that you be honest with them. They need the correct info to process so that they can deal with their situation properly.


----------



## Dyokemm

"But she lied to me every single day for a year and half."

She is lying still.

The other posters are right.

A POS doesn't spend a year texting your WW, putting his own M at risk everyday he does so, unless he's getting some action.

He's not a teenage girl.

And, your WW is not just TT'ing you.

She is also in full blameshift mode...this is why she is showing no remorse for what she has done.


----------



## Janky

Dyokemm said:


> *A POS doesn't spend a year texting your WW, putting his own M at risk everyday he does so, unless he's getting some action.*
> 
> He's not a teenage girl.


Its not like you caught it in the first month or so.

I know you want to believe that nothing physical happened but take a step back and think about that for a minute.


----------



## razgor

Hey everyone, still here.

Still trying to come to grips with everything that happened. Getting my own life back on track and dealing with my own problems.

As weird as it sounds I am happy. I have a clear vision of what I want. Working on my own issues has made me a lot happier. Sure I get beyond angry at her, but addressing things I can control is doing wonders for my mood. Either this relationship turns a leaf or I find a new one. But, one way or another I do not want the kind of marriage I have been in. Time will tell on that.

As to the latest development, my wife told me the OM briefly contacted her and said he told his wife about the affair. I have three thoughts on that.

1. It is true at face value. 
2. She said that to make me let my guard down and take away the whole expose the affair to the OMW. 
3. It is true, and they want to be together.

I am not really sure on what to believe on this one. The wife says it changes nothing between us.

We did visit the wifes family this weekend and she mentioned switching her work schedule. She lied to everyone about why she switched it. It did seem really easy to her. Kind of scary, how it was for her to lie. But then I got to remind myself she is good at that.

She has been very open with her phone still. Leaving it unattended. Again, would be easier for her to clear the junk of and leave it out. I have not done any of the other spying. Those are still on the table, just not yet. I know you guys disagree with that, but I will follow up on it.

Thanks for reading.


----------



## Philat

razgor said:


> As to the latest development, my wife told me the OM briefly contacted her and said he told his wife about the affair. I have three thoughts on that.
> 
> 1. It is true at face value.
> 2. She said that to make me let my guard down and take away the whole expose the affair to the OMW.
> 3. It is true, and they want to be together.
> 
> I am not really sure on what to believe on this one. The wife says it changes nothing between us.


Assume #2. What does she mean by "it changes nothing between us"? How does she assess things are between you?


----------



## thatbpguy

A few thoughts....

I think it is an absolute that the other person's spouse and the families are aware of the situation. NOT for revenge, but for honesty and accountability. I suggest sending a letter (privately) to the OM's wife and tell her that now she is aware you bear no grudge against him. If she has any questions, tell her to call you. This accomplishes a lot (makes sure she does know and if you are being lied to more, maybe find out some details you didn't know before...). 

You now know that your wife's propensities are towards betraying, and always will be. This means true trust & faith are no longer possible. You will need to find a way to cope with this. Checking up on someone is not establishing trust or faith. It simpley means that you can be manipulated in a controlled arena. 

I wanted to say I wish you well with reconciliation and hope it works for you. I tried twice and it failed each time. For some people, betraying is the easiest way out of reality.

Lastly, if you think she is still lying to you about any aspect (like the fact she states there was no sex as an example), make her prove it. If she withholds anything, then she is neither repentant nor wishing to really renew the marriage. Just biding time to get what she wants on her terms.


----------



## sandc

You're okay with the fact that she lied to her family? You're complicit in that lie now. She needs to come clean and tell them why she switched her schedule and how she's going to fight to win everyone's trust back. Anything less probably means that she's still in the affair.

I would assume that she is trying to protect him by trying to get you to not tell his wife. You need to tell her. Your wife needs to tell her family.

Has she written a NC letter to him yet? If so, how would she know what he has or hasn't told his wife? If not, why not?


----------



## razgor

Philat said:


> Assume #2. What does she mean by "it changes nothing between us"? How does she assess things are between you?


She said she still wants to give our marriage a second chance if I am willing. That is what she means. 

Defintely assuming it is number2. Or thinking on it brings a forth possiblity. He tells his wife that I am crazy jealous ex-husband. Either way if I do talk to her it will confirm a lot. If the OMW has no idea what I am talking about or avoids contact with me/tells me to stay away it would confirm the lies. The crazy jealous husband route is pretty weak, because I do have physical proof.

Too a degree, time is on my side if they are still lying. If it continues they will get sloppy at some point. And I could end the marriage and split my family knowing I tried. That part is important to me when my children are older and they want to know why we split. 



thatbpguy said:


> A few thoughts....
> 
> I think it is an absolute that the other person's spouse and the families are aware of the situation. NOT for revenge, but for honesty and accountability. I suggest sending a letter (privately) to the OM's wife and tell her that now she is aware you bear no grudge against him. If she has any questions, tell her to call you. This accomplishes a lot (makes sure she does know and if you are being lied to more, maybe find out some details you didn't know before...).
> 
> You now know that your wife's propensities are towards betraying, and always will be. This means true trust & faith are no longer possible. You will need to find a way to cope with this. Checking up on someone is not establishing trust or faith. It simpley means that you can be manipulated in a controlled arena.
> 
> I wanted to say I wish you well with reconciliation and hope it works for you. I tried twice and it failed each time. For some people, betraying is the easiest way out of reality.
> 
> Lastly, if you think she is still lying to you about any aspect (like the fact she states there was no sex as an example), make her prove it. If she withholds anything, then she is neither repentant nor wishing to really renew the marriage. Just biding time to get what she wants on her terms.


I agree, thanks for the comments. I am not sure what she would want by staying in the marriage. It was pretty much at deaths door even before the affair. I am pretty positive of the timeline she gave me on the affair. Stable home life? It is not exactly a cozy home at the moment. It has not been for a long time and probably will not be for a long time. Financially? We both would be well off without the other. Kids? Maybe this one. Just plain crazy and not knowing what she wants? Possible. Ha, but that sums me up pretty much as well.


----------



## razgor

sandc said:


> You're okay with the fact that she lied to her family? You're complicit in that lie now. She needs to come clean and tell them why she switched her schedule and how she's going to fight to win everyone's trust back. Anything less probably means that she's still in the affair.
> 
> I would assume that she is trying to protect him by trying to get you to not tell his wife. You need to tell her. Your wife needs to tell her family.
> 
> Has she written a NC letter to him yet? If so, how would she know what he has or hasn't told his wife? If not, why not?


Some people in both our families knows the full extent of our problems. Her affair and my issues. I do not feel that every single person in our families needs to know all the issues present. But the important people know everything.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

razgor said:


> He tells his wife that I am crazy jealous ex-husband. Either way if I do talk to her it will confirm a lot. If the OMW has no idea what I am talking about or avoids contact with me/tells me to stay away it would confirm the lies. The crazy jealous husband route is pretty weak, because I do have physical proof.


The OMW may not believe you, but you won't know unless you tell her. Even if she snubs you, or was fore warned by the OM. If she knows about it, there is now another set of eyes watching them, FROM THE INSIDE.

Make all the excuses you want to, but not telling the OMW is one more reason that this affair won't end, or she'll have another down the line...



razgor said:


> Too a degree, time is on my side if they are still lying. If it continues they will get sloppy at some point.


Think again. They well get BETTER at hiding it. She will become more attached to him. And if they haven't had sex yet(the jury's still out on this one...), THEY WILL SOON.



razgor said:


> I agree, thanks for the comments.


You agree with the comments, but what about the advice? You may think that a lot of us are just bitter hard a$$es. But we keep saying the same things, suggesting that you do the same things over and over, because we've been there. We've been here(TAM). We see where this is going. We know where this has been.

Yes, the state of your marriage is owned by both of you. Her having an EA(very possibly a PA) is 100% on her. You can try to fix the marriage all you want, but until you HANDLE her affair, you're just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.


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## tom67

Razgor
Telling his wife is doing the right thing if it was the other way around you would appreciate it.
Then more importantly you have another set of eyes on them and more peace of mind.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Chaparral

You have to be pro active to stop this affair.. Workplace affairs are the hardest. We have seen many, many here that have gone on for years undetected simply because they do not have to contact each other outside work. 

You even have to consider this could have been going on much longer and the reason your marriage was already in bad shape.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

razgor said:


> Some people in both our families knows the full extent of our problems. Her affair and my issues. I do not feel that every single person in our families needs to know all the issues present. But the important people know everything.


OP:

this is a sad story; sorry you're having to go through something like this. But what are your "issues"....more precisely? what does it mean when you say you treated your wife "like crap."

I only ask because you would have had to have done some pretty awful things for her to justify becoming a wh0re. how bad did you treat her - did you deny her sex for an extended period, forget every one of her birthdays....what?

my sense is that your anger is starting to put you on the right path....


----------



## NotLikeYou

razgor said:


> Some people in both our families knows the full extent of our problems. Her affair and my issues. I do not feel that every single person in our families needs to know all the issues present. *But the important people know everything.*


razgor, if this is the case, have they been able to fill in the gaps for you?

I mean, let's keep in mind that right now, YOU don't know everything. You literally don't have any idea of how much you DON'T know.

Recommendations:

Keep working on yourself.

Have as good of a relationship as you can with your kids.


Moral guidance:

Its bad when your spouse lies to family members to cover up something important, like the fact that she developed a strong taste for somebody else's sausage for 18 months.

Generally, it is worse that one spouse also lies to their partner about an affair, but in your case, we'll let it slide, since you want to.

It's also bad when you participate in covering up your spouse's lies to family members. When the truth comes out, and it will come out, you will be viewed as complicit, rather than a victim. And, having let the lies stand, "complicit" will be the correct view.


Common sense:

Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.

You are defined by the choices you make. If you choose to keep her, you deserve what she gives you. Yes, it really is that simple.

It's no longer a case of, "well, bad things happen to good people." The bad thing has already happened. You know enough to know that. If you stick around after this has happened, you have no one to blame but yourself.


----------



## razgor

tom67 said:


> Razgor
> Telling his wife is doing the right thing if it was the other way around you would appreciate it.
> Then more importantly you have another set of eyes on them and more peace of mind.
> Just my opinion.


I know, and I think about it everyday. Part of me really wants to contact her. I am on the fence, TBH. I know everyone here really adovcates for it.

Especially since I am 99% sure she knows about the affair. I did confirm the OMW knows. Based on texts from the wife that I checked on. 



Chaparral said:


> You have to be pro active to stop this affair.. Workplace affairs are the hardest. We have seen many, many here that have gone on for years undetected simply because they do not have to contact each other outside work.
> 
> You even have to consider this could have been going on much longer and the reason your marriage was already in bad shape.


I am sure of the time line. The marriage started to go down hill because of me. I own it. Things were going good, we hit a tough spot and I dropped the ball. Does NOT justify her affair. She should have ended our marriage or started the process.

As for workplace affairs, there are people very high up in the organization that are aware of it. They could not have switched schedules so quickly without someone high up knowing about it. 

In a way, I am giving her rope. I even told her that. I know, some of her family knows, some people in her work knows. If she continues the affair our marriage is over. And I will have no regrets. I feel the biggest losers would be my children, but the ball is in her court so to speak. 

I grew up in a family where my own parents hated each other, and I refuse to put my own children through that. I remember when my own parents got divorced all of the kids asked - "What took so long?" In hindsight, I was already imitating my parents marriage before the affair. Time to reorder my life, with or without the wife.




nuclearnightmare said:


> OP:
> 
> this is a sad story; sorry you're having to go through something like this. But what are your "issues"....more precisely? what does it mean when you say you treated your wife "like crap."
> 
> I only ask because you would have had to have done some pretty awful things for her to justify becoming a wh0re. how bad did you treat her - did you deny her sex for an extended period, forget every one of her birthdays....what?
> 
> my sense is that your anger is starting to put you on the right path....


LOL, defintely not from forgetting a birthday. I would say if the wife had posted her story her before the affair most people would recommend that she divorce me or at the least see some serious marriage counsoling. But no, I was not physically abusive or having an affair. If anything that has been a joke between the wife and me when we talk. We joke around that "At least I did not beat her." But for sure she was dead last in my priorities in the year and half leading up to her affair. And there are other issues involved that I am not going to go into.

I know everyone is so focused on the affair(myself included sometimes), but there can be no reconcilation if I do not get myself in order. But I need to do that regardless of the outcome.


----------



## badmemory

razgor said:


> I know everyone is so focused on the affair(myself included sometimes), *but there can be no reconcilation if I do not get myself in order.* But I need to do that regardless of the outcome.


That's absolutely true. But be mindful that there is a proper progression for a successful R.

Before you start working on yourself, you have to be satisfied that her remorse is genuine and unconditional. You need time to process what she did and for her to demonstrate that's she's willing to do the heavy lifting, *FIRST*.

When you get to that point, that's when you two can work on the marital issues and you can work on your issues. Unfortunately, a lot of marital counselors who are not experienced with infidelity, want the BS to go straight to the marital issues, and minimize the CS's accountability. If you do go to a MC, I'd advise you to avoid those type of counselors; and there are a lot of them out there.


----------



## razgor

badmemory said:


> That's absolutely true. But be mindful that there is a proper progression for a successful R.
> 
> Before you start working on yourself, you have to be satisfied that her remorse is genuine and unconditional. You need time to process what she did and for her to demonstrate that's she's willing to do the heavy lifting, *FIRST*.
> 
> When you get to that point, that's when you two can work on the marital issues and you can work on your issues. Unfortunately, a lot of marital counselors who are not experienced with infidelity, want the BS to go straight to the marital issues, and minimize the CS's accountability. If you do go to a MC, I'd advise you to avoid those type of counselors; and there are a lot of them out there.


Thanks for the thoughtful post! It is strange I can post about my wife cheating to total strangers but hate talking about my own issues. Basically, I had started to drink a lot in our marriage about three years ago. Drinking a LOT and I basically ignored the wife. Not the kids, mind you. I poured all my energy into the kids. But once they went to bed I pretty much ignored the wife. Drank some beer and did my own thing. Looking back I was very depressed at that time. I really don't know why. The wifes affair started after about a year and a half of that. I even suspected it, but really did not care. 

Then in earlier May I kind of "woke up". Wondering WTF was going on with my life. Decided everything in my life was going wrong - except my kids. But I am sure their life was being impacted. So I looked for the affair, it did not take much effort to find it.

I really did not expect the affair to hurt as much as it did. I was already gone from the marriage. Even the wife said she did not expect me to react this way.

So getting my life in order. I don't want my old life back. I want something better. I have stopped drinking, only three weeks but you got start somewhere. I stopped a week after I found out about the affair. Working out, and I feel really good.

The wife has been very supportive about me quiting drinking. Before this whole mess we had always been close friends. One of the things that held our marriage together in the past.

But that is my *heavy lifting*. I feel that both my wife and myself made horrible mistakes in our lives. In a sense, it is also why I am willing to try and forgive her. And maybe she can forgive me. Or maybe there is just too much bad blood between us. Time will tell, but like I said earlier. I want to know that I tried to make things right. No matter how it turns out.


----------



## badmemory

razgor said:


> Basically, I had started to drink a lot in our marriage about three years ago.
> 
> Drinking a LOT and I basically ignored the wife. Drank some beer and did my own thing. Looking back I was very depressed at that time. I really don't know why. The wifes affair started after about a year and a half of that. I even suspected it, but really did not care.
> 
> Then in earlier May I kind of "woke up".


Eerily similar to my story razgor. I isolated myself, drank too much, ignored her, and was glad when she was out of the house - at least until I "woke up", like you. I went to rehab and tried to be a better husband - to save my marriage. That was a year into her A (as I found out later). 

But it didn't save my marriage. She kept up the A for another year until I finally pulled my head out of my @ss and caught her. 

I don't dwell on my past behavior any more. While I understand that it takes two to have a successful R; how I behaved pales in comparison to what she did. She understands that now, and your wife needs to understand that as well.


----------



## Dyokemm

Razgor,

It is great that you are working on bettering yourself.

I agree with you that, no matter what happens in your M, fixing your own issues/problems needs to be a vital outcome of this experience.

You are on the right path with this.

You are open and honest about all of your own deficiencies and are working to improve them.

You will end up in a better place regardless of the ultimate outcome.

Now, as far as your M is concerned, your WW has to match your honesty and dedication to fixing things.

This is why I have stressed a couple times to you that she has to fully 'own her s**t', meaning admit ALL they ways she broke her vows and M, and then start working as hard as you on addressing them.

This won't work if you are the only one being honest about the issues and upfront about what needs to be done to fix them.

So, again, I will stress to you that she cannot be TT'ing you or hiding what she did.

If you sense you are being gaslighted, you need to call her on it and demand a full confession as the starting point for moving forward on fixing your M.

I still doubt that a POS simply talks to a WW for this length of time without more being there.

If she is being evasive or deceptive on this (trust your gut if it doesn't sound believable), then that needs to stop if you two are to have any chance of saving your M.


----------



## razgor

badmemory said:


> Eerily similar to my story razgor. I isolated myself, drank too much, ignored her, and was glad when she was out of the house - at least until I "woke up", like you. I went to rehab and tried to be a better husband - to save my marriage. That was a year into her A (as I found out later).
> 
> But it didn't save my marriage. She kept up the A for another year until I finally pulled my head out of my @ss and caught her.
> 
> I don't dwell on my past behavior any more. While I understand that it takes two to have a successful R; how I behaved pales in comparison to what she did. She understands that now, and your wife needs to understand that as well.



Thank you for sharing your story. I can totally relate. I looked forward to her being gone! I wanted her to just go away and leave me alone. Sorry it did not work out for you. But I can see how her continuing the affair for that extra year really destroyed your relationship.

There were certain times over the past year and a half were I tried to get out of my funk. But the wife was so cold and ANGRY at me. I would try for a week and just give up. I recognize now that I had zero chance and reigniting our marriage because she was in her affair. That is what fuels my anger.

At the same time, there were times when she tried to improve our marriage. She would plan a trip and she even said we need to go to marriage counseling. But at those times I was disengaged. So we were never on the same page.

I understand her anger. And I feel extremely bad at how I treated her. I think in her mind she completely justified the affair. But yes, she has to show remorse and I am seeing glimmers of it more and more.

In a weird way her affair has given me strength. When we talk about our marriage she can not just beat me down about how I was a horrible husband. I can look her dead in the eye, apologize, say I am working on it. Then ask her what is she doing? I can bust the nice little mental image she has of herself as a good wife who got dealt a bad husband. It also gives me strength to leave our marriage if things do not turn around.

Our talks are emotionally exhausting for both of us! There have been times were we talked for 2 hours and then both agreed to just watch a TV show together. Sitting next to each other making small talk or laughing at the show.






Dyokemm said:


> Razgor,
> 
> It is great that you are working on bettering yourself.
> 
> I agree with you that, no matter what happens in your M, fixing your own issues/problems needs to be a vital outcome of this experience.
> 
> You are on the right path with this.
> 
> You are open and honest about all of your own deficiencies and are working to improve them.
> 
> You will end up in a better place regardless of the ultimate outcome.
> 
> Now, as far as your M is concerned, your WW has to match your honesty and dedication to fixing things.
> 
> This is why I have stressed a couple times to you that she has to fully 'own her s**t', meaning admit ALL they ways she broke her vows and M, and then start working as hard as you on addressing them.
> 
> This won't work if you are the only one being honest about the issues and upfront about what needs to be done to fix them.
> 
> So, again, I will stress to you that she cannot be TT'ing you or hiding what she did.
> 
> If you sense you are being gaslighted, you need to call her on it and demand a full confession as the starting point for moving forward on fixing your M.
> 
> I still doubt that a POS simply talks to a WW for this length of time without more being there.
> 
> If she is being evasive or deceptive on this (trust your gut if it doesn't sound believable), then that needs to stop if you two are to have any chance of saving your M.




I am not sure about her honsty about the PA part. She is very admanant about it. No intercourse, but she does not want to go into the other details.

But a little background information. Her father had an affair on her mother. And one of her mothers "regrets" was pushing for all the details of the affair. Her mother feels she should have just left it alone and nothing good came from pushing her husband for the details of the affair. Her mother feels that was one of the things that drove her parents apart. She could never get over the anger. I disagree with that view, but my wife is probably being influenced by that. 


On a lighter side, it has been a perfect environment for shedding some extra weight. Being stressed out, exercising a lot and stop drinking beer has been burning the pounds off.


----------



## mahike

I would contact the OMW and find out if in fact he told her. The POS contacting your wife could be he is fishing to start things up again. That is common, it starts conversations again.

Being open with the phone is great but they can still talk through on line games, snap chat or other email accounts you do no know about. Keep your guard up.


----------



## Dyokemm

"But a little background information. Her father had an affair on her mother. And one of her mothers "regrets" was pushing for all the details of the affair. Her mother feels she should have just left it alone and nothing good came from pushing her husband for the details of the affair. Her mother feels that was one of the things that drove her parents apart. She could never get over the anger. I disagree with that view, but my wife is probably being influenced by that."

Sounds like she has been predisposed to consider TT'ing and gaslighting as the best course...it will unfortunately make your path forward in R more difficult if she clings to it.

I think you need to just directly inform her this is unacceptable to you, and only complete honesty and working on fixing the damage both of you have done will be successful.

You are doing that on your end...she needs to match that for this R to work.

For example, how much trust and healing could you two accomplish if you were to constantly minimize or blameshift your past drinking and behavior?

She would have very little reason to believe your changes were genuine and lasting, and with good reason because you would not be truly owning up to them.

The same MUST apply to her A if you are to save your M.


----------



## badmemory

razgor said:


> Sorry it did not work out for you. But I can see how her continuing the affair for that extra year really destroyed your relationship.


Well if I wasn't clear, we're now in R and have been for 2 and a half years; if you want to call that working out.

I guess my point was that your wife shouldn't have any illusions that your past behavior diminishes your moral high ground. Once she cheated, everything changed. She should understand that R with you is a gift that she should treasure, that you need *time* to work through her betrayal, and that she shouldn't expect you to be Ward Cleaver.


----------



## razgor

Hey everyone. Still here. The TT is still going on with the WW. Here is the latest, and I am really not sure how to proceed on it.

Earlier I had mentioned that my wife's best friend watches our children. She comes to our house on the days my wife works, which is three days a week. Initially my wife had said that the sitter only knew about her affair for two weeks. Know she came out and said our sitter knew about the affair for a year. But she did not tell her who it was with. The wife then said our sitter knew everything since Nov of last year. That by itself is not a huge deal to me.

But as I started to think it through I remember my sitter offering my wife a hotel room in her timeshare to "get away". That was early this year, and unfortunately I can not remember the exact timeline. Then when I was going through my wifes things I found a card from our sitter to my wife with the hotel address and the date March 11th. In the card she wrote this is for my wife "to get away or whatever she wants". With a smiley face beside that sentence. March 11th falls on a day when my wife is off work, a Tuesday. I am 99% sure I remember my wife talking about the get away before that date.

Now, my wife has never stayed the night out that I am aware of. But the WW and OM could have easily meet at the room during the day. Especially since the sitter could easily watch the kids. I also should mention that this is the only job our sitter has. And in the past the wife has had her watch the kids while she runs errands on her day off. The two have been best friends forever. Even before me and the wife had meet. And they have always done girls trip together. And the sitter has always done anything for my wife.

But this development really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Best case the sitter sat on the sidelines during the wifes affair. Worst case she was actively enabling it and watching the kids when the two meet. But where does it stop! Did the wife and sitter even go on a girls trip? Was that just a cover for the WW and OM?

A third option is the wife and sitter have another thing going on the side. The sitter has not really dated anyone that I am aware of for the last 10 years. But I doubt that they are seeing each other in that way. 

Unfortunatly, my kids *ADORE* our sitter. She is always the one who watches our kids when me and the wife go out. We all even go to a vacation house every year. She takes the kids on little field trips during the day over the weekend. She has no kids of her own and in a sense is a second mother to them. But I feel like I have a snake in my family. My kids would be devastated if I tried to cut her out. She has watched them since they were born!

I am not sure what to do on this one. Confront the wife about it? Confront the sitter about it? It was horrible this morning when she came over our house to watch the kids. I felt so much rage for this woman. I can deal with her not actively trying to end my wifes affair. They are bests friends. But to think that she has been aiding and enabling the affair is really gut wrenching.

We have a MC appointment this afternoon and I am not sure I can contain it then. 

There is some good news, I am getting back in shape. Still not drinking. Working on myself.

Edit: I also should mention that when I was monitoring the wifes texts the sitter sent a couple to her saying I hope she is not too "distracted at work". I kind of let that go because the wife had said the she only knew about the affair for the two weeks leading up to our D-Day.


----------



## tom67

razgor said:


> Hey everyone. Still here. The TT is still going on with the WW. Here is the latest, and I am really not sure how to proceed on it.
> 
> Earlier I had mentioned that my wife's best friend watches our children. She comes to our house on the days my wife works, which is three days a week. Initially my wife had said that the sitter only knew about her affair for two weeks. Know she came out and said our sitter knew about the affair for a year. But she did not tell her who it was with. The wife then said our sitter knew everything since Nov of last year. That by itself is not a huge deal to me.
> 
> But as I started to think it through I remember my sitter offering my wife a hotel room in her timeshare to "get away". That was early this year, and unfortunately I can not remember the exact timeline. Then when I was going through my wifes things I found a card from our sitter to my wife with the hotel address and the date March 11th. In the card she wrote this is for my wife "to get away or whatever she wants". With a smiley face beside that sentence. March 11th falls on a day when my wife is off work, a Tuesday. I am 99% sure I remember my wife talking about the get away before that date.
> 
> Now, my wife has never stayed the night out that I am aware of. But the WW and OM could have easily meet at the room during the day. Especially since the sitter could easily watch the kids. I also should mention that this is the only job our sitter has. And in the past the wife has had her watch the kids while she runs errands on her day off. The two have been best friends forever. Even before me and the wife had meet. And they have always done girls trip together. And the sitter has always done anything for my wife.
> 
> But this development really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Best case the sitter sat on the sidelines during the wifes affair. Worst case she was actively enabling it and watching the kids when the two meet. But where does it stop! Did the wife and sitter even go on a girls trip? Was that just a cover for the WW and OM?
> 
> A third option is the wife and sitter have another thing going on the side. The sitter has not really dated anyone that I am aware of for the last 10 years. But I doubt that they are seeing each other in that way.
> 
> Unfortunatly, my kids *ADORE* our sitter. She is always the one who watches our kids when me and the wife go out. We all even go to a vacation house every year. She takes the kids on little field trips during the day over the weekend. She has no kids of her own and in a sense is a second mother to them. But I feel like I have a snake in my family. My kids would be devastated if I tried to cut her out. She has watched them since they were born!
> 
> I am not sure what to do on this one. Confront the wife about it? Confront the sitter about it? It was horrible this morning when she came over our house to watch the kids. I felt so much rage for this woman. I can deal with her not actively trying to end my wifes affair. They are bests friends. But to think that she has been aiding and enabling the affair is really gut wrenching.
> 
> We have a MC appointment this afternoon and I am not sure I can contain it then.
> 
> There is some good news, I am getting back in shape. Still not drinking. Working on myself.
> 
> Edit: I also should mention that when I was monitoring the wifes texts the sitter sent a couple to her saying I hope she is not too "distracted at work". I kind of let that go because the wife had said the she only knew about the affair for the two weeks leading up to our D-Day.


Okay
1) Polygraph
2) Contact the omw today
I guarantee you will get some answers.


----------



## mahike

good to hear about the drinking and working out. I would bring all this up in MC.

She is a toxic friend of your wifes that not only knew about the PA but encouraged it as well. She has to go as a sitter and a friend. You should tell your wife this in front of the MC. Let her know that it is time not only to let the sitter go but she needs to end the friendship.

I would be very firm on this.


----------



## GusPolinski

mahike said:


> good to hear about the drinking and working out. I would bring all this up in MC.
> 
> She is a toxic friend of your wifes that not only knew about the PA but encouraged it as well. She has to go as a sitter and a friend. You should tell your wife this in front of the MC. Let her know that it is time not only to let the sitter go but she needs to end the friendship.
> 
> I would be very firm on this.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Get a new sitter.


----------



## Hicks

Look, your wife cheated on you and you have not divorced her.
Why is that you expect her to have "just divorced you".... It's never that easy.

You opened the door to your wife's cheating. You have admitted this to yourself and to her. Why would she feel remorseful? You are remorseful. She is not remorseful. She views it as a natural consequence of your actions. And by extension, her friend was just following your wife's lead.

I think to attempt to pull remorse where it doesn't exist, or to blame people is not going to help you. You can't take ownership and assign blame simultaneously.

Let's say instead of alcohol or whatever you did, your were cheating on your wife. And, in response, she decided for the kids sake she was not going to divorce you so instead she started cheating herself. Then you decide you want back in the marriage. Would anyone say "she should be remorseful. She should not have cheated, she should have just divorced you"... Do you see that this is absurd?

So if you truly feel that you were terrible as a husband and mostly to blame for the sequence of events that led to her affair, you are justified in leaving it at that and fixing your side of the street, and taking her at face value. From what you post, she is not exhibiting red flags that she is in love with him and continuing to cheat. If she does, that will all be revealed anyway, and in the end you will be a better person having worked on yourself anyway.


----------



## 6301

I agree with Tom67. Tell your wife that your setting up a polygraph test for her and your going to get the answers you want and if she gives you a hard time about it then you have some serious choices to make. 

They shouldn't be hard since you know what she's already done, but when there's a good chance that her friend is running interference for her and helping her have an affair, you damn well better get a new sitter and let your wife know that this friendship is over or your going to end the marriage.

Chances are if you set up the polygraph, she's going to come clean.


----------



## badmemory

Sitters. They always know more than you think they know. Proving it however is a different matter.

I faced a similar situation three years ago. Both our mothers were bed ridden and on hospice. We used 4 sitters to be with them around the clock, just up the road at my mother-n-law's house.

To make a long story short, my wife and the POSOM often met up there for sex. I read all the gory details in his e-mails. They'd do it in the garage storm closet or my wife would send the one working away for a few hours. She'd tell me after the fact, that she had to go up there to cover for them because they had to "run an errand".

When I discovered my wife's A, by then her mother had passed away; but my mother was still using the same sitters in that house. I fired all the sitters and moved my mother elsewhere until she also passed away 3 months later.

It was impossible for me to believe, that these sitter's didn't know what was going on. Because even if one knew, all the other sitters would know too. They liked to talk.

Don't mess around with this OP. Your wife changing the timeline on when your sitter knew; the "coincidence" of the condo visit; them being best friends. You can bet you @ss that she knew about it since the beginning and probably facilitated it.

Time to put your big boy pants on.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

The fact that your WS can look in the eye and still tell you that she didn't have PIV sex with the OM says a lot.

You really can't believe that an affair that was going on for a year and now finding out about the sitter's offer of to her of using the hotel room was not to the point of all out PIV sex, can you?...

Tell her a guy at work was in a similar situation as you. He knew he couldn't R unless he knew the truth. His wife lied to him too often and for so long(during the affair) he had her take a polygraph. She did, she passed, they're still married.

Then tell her you will need her to do the same.

Her reaction will be very telling on it's own. If she does agree to take one, you are very likely to get a "parking lot confession".

Decide before hand where your breaking point is. Where you'll draw the line on R and D. Because she not only most likely did have PIV sex with him. She may have done things with him that she hardly ever did, or has never done with you sexually.


----------



## tom67

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> The fact that your WS can look in the eye and still tell you that she didn't have PIV sex with the OM says a lot.
> 
> You really can't believe that an affair that was going on for a year and now finding out about the sitter's offer of to her of using the hotel room was not to the point of all out PIV sex, can you?...
> 
> Tell her a guy at work was in a similar situation as you. He knew he couldn't R unless he knew the truth. His wife lied to him too often and for so long(during the affair) he had her take a polygraph. She did, she passed, they're still married.
> 
> Then tell her you will need her to do the same.
> 
> Her reaction will be very telling on it's own. If she does agree to take one, you are very likely to get a "parking lot confession".
> 
> Decide before hand where your breaking point is. Where you'll draw the line on R and D. Because she not only most likely did have PIV sex with him. She may have done things with him that she hardly did, or has never done with you sexually.


:iagree::iagree:
Limbo sux.


----------



## seasalt

Means, motive and opportunity. That's enough to get anyone arrested and possibly convicted of a crime. You know she's guilty of infidelity but just not to what extent. You have to decide what the difference matters to you.

I'm not against reconciliation but if I remember correctly she doesn't appear to be particularly remorseful. I don't think a second chance should be granted without that unmistakable remorse.

Good luck,

Seasalt

P.S. The sitter should be gone sooner than later. If your wife doesn't understand it's just one more dirty mark in the ledger against her.


----------



## sandc

Yep. The babysitter goes.


----------



## tom67

sandc said:


> Yep. The babysitter goes.


I'll take her if she's hot. I need some lunch sorry.


----------



## sandc

Better plan. Give the babysitter to Tom.


----------



## tom67

Razgor good luck tonight.
Get out of limbo one way or another.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Polygraph...that simple...make it part of the agreement if she is certain that nothing happen then she should be happy to prove it. my bet is if she is lying she will tell you right before the polygraph


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Your WW is rugsweeping her affair. Her adamant refusal to admit that it was a PA even though so many signs of it are there is something you need to think about very seriously.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

What is your wife's definition of "Intercourse", sounds like what an X-President definition of "I did not have sex with that woman"?


----------



## walkonmars

it doesn't matter that your kids adore the sitter. She not only kept silent but actually encouraged your wife - provided support, cover, and means. Uhuh. No way. 

If you'd keep her b/c the kids adored her, how far would you be willing to go? Would you keep a thief, psycho, or hoodlum as a sitter b/c they got along great with the kids? 

You don't seem to get that PIV occurred - and often. And that you're being lied to. We're talking about adults here not preteens. You're ascribing preteen behavior to adults. Doesn't make sense.


----------



## missthelove2013

"no intercourse, but wont get into details"
and this is acceptable to you??

This means they probably did everything but screw, and probably screwed a few times as well

she has had NO repercussions for this...NONE
What is to stop her from doing this again?
If someone wants to cheat, they will FIND problems in their marriage to justify it...maybe next time she wont need to justify it

most of the threads Ive read where the op does NOT follow the priceless asvice here do NOT end well

for even a remote chance of a successful R you HAVE to blow this up, tell everyone, family, friends
you HAVE to tell the om's wife
you HAVE to insist she finds a new job, not just adjust their hours, whats to stop romeo from popping in during her shift
you HAVE to make her stop trickle truthing and get all the info, tell her you want a polygraph test, schedule one, AND GO...chances are you will get a parking lot confession right before the test

she has offered you nothing...the only info she gives you is what she thinks you already know...this isnt going to end well until you go nuclear...sorry


----------



## tom67

missthelove2013 said:


> "no intercourse, but wont get into details"
> and this is acceptable to you??
> 
> This means they probably did everything but screw, and probably screwed a few times as well
> 
> she has had NO repercussions for this...NONE
> What is to stop her from doing this again?
> If someone wants to cheat, they will FIND problems in their marriage to justify it...maybe next time she wont need to justify it
> 
> most of the threads Ive read where the op does NOT follow the priceless asvice here do NOT end well
> 
> for even a remote chance of a successful R you HAVE to blow this up, tell everyone, family, friends
> you HAVE to tell the om's wife
> you HAVE to insist she finds a new job, not just adjust their hours, whats to stop romeo from popping in during her shift
> you HAVE to make her stop trickle truthing and get all the info, tell her you want a polygraph test, schedule one, AND GO...chances are you will get a parking lot confession right before the test
> 
> she has offered you nothing...the only info she gives you is what she thinks you already know...this isnt going to end well until you go nuclear...sorry


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
Razgor you are working on yourself and I commend you for this.
What is she doing besides rugsweeping?
Polygraph bro or at least the threat of one.
None of us is perfect
Stop putting all the blame on you.


----------



## tom67

Come back and tell us you told the other mans wife please.
Have a great weekend.


----------



## razgor

Things have been very hectic since my last post, with lots of developments. First, we had a really intense MC session on Thursday. About the sitter and the details of the affair. My wife did say that the sitter did not encourage the affair or give them a means to hook up. That my wife kept those details away from her. She knew of the affair, but not the gritty details. Also, now that I have had time to cool off and think semi-rationally it makes little sense for them to need a hotel room from her. The OM is fairly wealthly. Heck, he could have easily kept a secret apartment. 

My wife is still very adamant that there was no intercourse. She was in love with him and things happened. Honestly, it does not make that huge of a difference to me. She betrayed me either way. Anything else is just splitting hairs.

Lastly, my wife and the OM wife meet over the weekend. It was actually a fairly friendly meeting. I was actually concerned for my wife’s safety there, but it went well. There was no digging into details, just talk about my family and hers.

At this point, we are choosing to work on our marriage. Both of us. To try and let go my anger. Just like she does. It will not be easy for either of us. 

So this will probably be last post here for a while. I don’t think I can forgive my wife if I am reading other peoples stories of betrayal. This site just stirs up to much anger in me. So my plan is to focus on my issues and see if we can rebuild a better life together. And my wife is doing the same. Which is the best thing we can do together.


----------



## bandit.45

She's not being honest and she's not owning what she did. There is not going to be any R my friend. But good luck anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Tom - I think he was saying his wife went and talked to the other man's *wife* this past weekend. But it sounds like just them and not razgor? Which makes me wonder if it really happened, or what was actually discussed. 

razgor - I wish you the best, but I am guessing you know where this is headed. In those quiet moments free from distraction I am guessing you have nagging thoughts and fear in the pit of your stomach. Your gut will prove to be right. 

We will all be here, ready to help, when you come back a few months from now crushed again by the continued betrayal of your wife. We will again serve up our support and advice and will hope you are ready to hear them and consider them with renewed eagerness. I am truly sorry you are experiencing this, and even more sorry for the inevitable future you will be faced with. 

Your heart is in the right place, but you must conqueror the fear of losing your wife. Once you can envision a life without her, you will be amazed how things fall into place. Only then can you successfully move forward with divorce or reconciliation. Until then, you will remain the hostage of your one-sided marriage, living in fear and uncertainty.


----------



## happyman64

And watch her like a hawk Razgor.

Keep tabs on her as best you can without her knowing it.

Come back here when you are ready.....


----------



## Ripper

Some people cannot learn from others mistakes, they have to experience things for themselves.

Good luck OP, you will need it.


----------



## bandit.45

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Tom - I think he was saying his wife went and talked to the other man's *wife* this past weekend. But it sounds like just them and not razgor? Which makes me wonder if it really happened, or what was actually discussed.
> 
> razgor - I wish you the best, but I am guessing you know where this is headed. In those quiet moments free from distraction I am guessing you have nagging thoughts and fear in the pit of your stomach. Your gut will prove to be right.
> 
> We will all be here, ready to help, when you come back a few months from now crushed again by the continued betrayal of your wife. We will again serve up our support and advice and will hope you are ready to hear them and consider them with renewed eagerness. I am truly sorry you are experiencing this, and even more sorry for the inevitable future you will be faced with.
> 
> Your heart is in the right place, but you must conqueror the fear of losing your wife. Once you can envision a life without her, you will be amazed how things fall into place. Only then can you successfully move forward with divorce or reconciliation. Until then, you will remain the captor of your one-sided marriage, living in fear and uncertainty.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

We'll said.


----------



## tom67

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Tom - I think he was saying his wife went and talked to the other man's *wife* this past weekend. But it sounds like just them and not razgor? Which makes me wonder if it really happened, or what was actually discussed.
> 
> razgor - I wish you the best, but I am guessing you know where this is headed. In those quiet moments free from distraction I am guessing you have nagging thoughts and fear in the pit of your stomach. Your gut will prove to be right.
> 
> We will all be here, ready to help, when you come back a few months from now crushed again by the continued betrayal of your wife. We will again serve up our support and advice and will hope you are ready to hear them and consider them with renewed eagerness. I am truly sorry you are experiencing this, and even more sorry for the inevitable future you will be faced with.
> 
> Your heart is in the right place, but you must conqueror the fear of losing your wife. Once you can envision a life without her, you will be amazed how things fall into place. Only then can you successfully move forward with divorce or reconciliation. Until then, you will remain the captor of your one-sided marriage, living in fear and uncertainty.


Yeah I think I goofed sorry
I second with Bandit very well said.


----------



## badmemory

razgor said:


> Honestly, it does not make that huge of a difference to me. She betrayed me either way. Anything else is just splitting hairs.


razgor, I wish you the best with your attempted R.

But I think at some point into it; I believe you will change your mindset. Though you may have the same feeling about forgiving either an EA or PA; it's going to be your lingering doubt about her truthfulness, that has you wrestling with the demons.


----------



## razgor

tom67 said:


> Lastly, my wife and the OM wife meet over the weekend. It was actually a fairly friendly meeting. I was actually concerned for my wife’s safety there, but it went well. There was no digging into details, just talk about my family and hers.
> 
> Why after all this did she have to meet him?:scratchhead:
> Why did you allow that?
> I'm just...wow.
> Razgor good luck.


I think you miss understood my post. My wife meet his wife. He was not there. My wife asked me if I wanted to attend the meeting, but I declined. The meeting was setup by a co-worker who is friends with his wife and my wife. I am 100% sure they meet.

I declined to attend the meeting because I had already decided to try and move one. Trying to ferret out some little detail really does not serve any purpose at this point. The affair happened and the affair is over. I feel very confident on this. And I think the OM’s wife wanted some closure from my wife. 

Both myself and my wife have agreed to work on our marriage. We also both agreed that we would divorce if things did not work out between. Both of us is willing to pull the trigger and end the marriage. We both have plenty of reasons too. But we want to first give our best to save it.




Ripper said:


> Some people cannot learn from others mistakes, they have to experience things for themselves.
> 
> Good luck OP, you will need it.


Learn from the mistakes of others or not believing that everyone’s situation is the same? 

I am not going into this with my eyes closed. I have no plans of going back to sleep. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.


----------



## tom67

razgor said:


> I think you miss understood my post. My wife meet his wife. He was not there. My wife asked me if I wanted to attend the meeting, but I declined. The meeting was setup by a co-worker who is friends with his wife and my wife. I am 100% sure they meet.
> 
> I declined to attend the meeting because I had already decided to try and move one. Trying to ferret out some little detail really does not serve any purpose at this point. The affair happened and the affair is over. I feel very confident on this. And I think the OM’s wife wanted some closure from my wife.
> 
> Both myself and my wife have agreed to work on our marriage. We also both agreed that we would divorce if things did not work out between. Both of us is willing to pull the trigger and end the marriage. We both have plenty of reasons too. But we want to first give our best to save it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Learn from the mistakes of others or not believing that everyone’s situation is the same?
> 
> I am not going into this with my eyes closed. I have no plans of going back to sleep. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.


Razgor we all hope it works out and yes I screwed up with that post.
We just don't think you have been told the truth and r will be tough not having a full timeline.


----------



## bandit.45

The issue I have is that yes I get that your wife probably had legitimate beefs against you and longstanding reasons to be angry at you that led to the deterioration of your marriage. But what I see from her is mostly a defiant attitude...the attitude that you drove her to cheat. 

We'll that kind of attitude does not lend itself to reconciliation. She has to own her decision to sleep with another man 100%. 

This is the part she does not get. All she does is blame shift and demand you get over it, while at the same time acting like you are privileged to have her in your life. See, she is under the false impression that she is irreplaceable in your heart and life. What you need to demonstrate to her, unequivocally, is that she is eminently, and actually quite easily, replaceable.


----------



## Dyokemm

Razgor,

I wish you all the best in your R.

I still think your WW is not being fully honest about what she did...no one needs a hotel room if there is not a PA going on.

Yet she still denies.

And you have decided to let her rugsweep this and continue to lie so you can move on in R.

I think your doubts about her truthfulness will eventually make any sense of trust almost impossible for you.

I don't think it will work, but I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## mahike

Bandit is on the money. If she is still trying to blame shift on your shortcomings as a husband you are going to go no where. You have to deal with the cheating first, the lack of honesty, the pain you suffered and she has to own the choice.

I am not sure she is there based on everything you have shared with us. 

If you are going to MC then this is first, everything else is on the back burner! 

I wish you luck but I do not think she has the right mindset to move forward


----------



## tom67

Is she going to get her resume together and at least try to look for another job.


----------



## razgor

badmemory said:


> razgor, I wish you the best with your attempted R.
> 
> But I think at some point into it; I believe you will change your mindset. Though you may have the same feeling about forgiving either an EA or PA; it's going to be your lingering doubt about her truthfulness, that has you wrestling with the demons.


Thanks for your posts here. Good luck with your marriage!

I am ok with the whole EA/PA and truth issue. It is natural for me to focus on the gritty details of her affair. The what/when/where/how. But what does that give me? What does that change? She already confused to being in love with him, to enjoying being physical with him. 

I realized that *I* was obsessing about it too much about the physical thing. Trying to pull out every single detail. Am I going to drag my wife to a polygraph to prove they had intercourse? What’s the point? She already confessed to being physical. Just not intercourse. What if she is telling the truth? Would it be any harder to forgive her if they had intercourse? No. Hell, if anything I wished they just had a hook up and not an affair that lasted over a year and half. 

I have reached the point where I feel like I know the important details. At some point you have to say either divorce or try to move on in your marriage. I feel like she is honestly trying to rebuild our marriage.


----------



## bandit.45

Okay then...

What about her attitude, which is for sh!t?


----------



## badmemory

razgor said:


> *I realized that *I* was obsessing about it too much about the physical thing.* Trying to pull out every single detail. Am I going to drag my wife to a polygraph to prove they had intercourse? What’s the point? She already confessed to being physical. Just not intercourse. What if she is telling the truth? Would it be any harder to forgive her if they had intercourse? No. Hell, if anything I wished they just had a hook up and not an affair that lasted over a year and half.
> 
> I have reached the point where I feel like I know the important details. At some point you have to say either divorce or try to move on in your marriage. I feel like she is honestly trying to rebuild our marriage.


It's only natural that you would obsess about it. You're her husband. Despite all the things that point to the contrary, she still denies intercourse. What man wouldn't obsess about it?

I think what you're trying to convince yourself of, is that she's remorseful "enough" and you don't see the need to test her remorse to the fullest extent. I don't see this short cut working out for you, but I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## tom67

And please get tested for stds. I know she said there was no intercourse you can get stds from bjs.
Just saying.


----------



## bandit.45

If I take pure powdered sodium, and mix it with water...there is going to be an explosion. 

If I take two horny cheaters, give them time and a hotel room...there's gonna be banging.....

OP knows his wife screwed the OM. He knows it in his gut. He's just too afraid of losing the marriage...his comfort zone...to push his wife for the truth and risk her leaving.


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> If I take pure powdered sodium, and mix it with water...there is going to be an explosion.
> 
> If I take two horny cheaters, give them time and a hotel room...there's gonna be banging.....
> 
> OP knows his wife screwed the OM. He knows it in his gut. He's just too afraid of losing the marriage...his comfort zone...to push his wife for the truth and risk her leaving.


This^^^
Over time his w will lose respect for him and may screw around again because there were no consequences before.
I hope we are both wrong.


----------



## razgor

bandit.45 said:


> Okay then...
> 
> What about her attitude, which is for sh!t?


Like a moth to a flame, keep getting draw back here. 

To be clear, I treated her like crap for years. I confronted her about the affair just over a month ago. Before that I basically ignored her most of the time. And during the last month it has been full blown battle between us. Is it realistic to expect her to be remorseful about the affair at this particular time? 

We agreed to work on our marriage. We did not agree that the marriage is saved.


----------



## bandit.45

razgor said:


> Like a moth to a flame, keep getting draw back here.
> 
> To be clear, I treated her like crap for years. I confronted her about the affair just over a month ago. Before that I basically ignored her most of the time. And during the last month it has been full blown battle between us. Is it realistic to expect her to be remorseful about the affair at this particular time?
> 
> We agreed to work on our marriage. We did not agree that the marriage is saved.


How did you treat her like crap? Did you really? Or are you only agreeing with the rewrite of the marital history she has shoved down your throat?

Can you give us actual samples of your bad behavior? Did you beat her, verbally abuse her, mentally abuse her, ignore her, kill her cat? What did you do to appear to be such a Nazi war criminal in her mind?


----------



## happyman64

Razgor

All you and your wife can do is go into this process with your both of your eyes open.

If you both feel love for each other then by all means go for it.

I do hope you both get some professional guidance to get your marriage back on track.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

HM


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> How did you treat her like crap? Did you really? Or are you only agreeing with the rewrite of the marital history she has shoved down your throat?
> 
> Can you give us actual samples of your bad behavior? Did you beat her, verbally abuse her, mentally abuse her, ignore her, kill her cat? What did you do to appear to be such a Nazi war criminal in her mind?


She has to rewrite the history of the m in order to relieve the guilt. It's called the rationalization hamster.


----------



## mahike

razgor said:


> Like a moth to a flame, keep getting draw back here.
> 
> To be clear, I treated her like crap for years. I confronted her about the affair just over a month ago. Before that I basically ignored her most of the time. And during the last month it has been full blown battle between us. Is it realistic to expect her to be remorseful about the affair at this particular time?
> 
> We agreed to work on our marriage. We did not agree that the marriage is saved.


Yes she should be remorseful. Flopping on her back and spreading her legs for another guy is about the worst thing you can do. If she is not crying or begging you to forgive her you have very little chance of making this work.

I know that is crude but you cannot compare ignoring someone with her fing someone else. Not even in the same ballpark


----------



## x598

Razgor

take my advice, from having walked in your shoes. you are making all the mistakes i made. all it does is prolong YOUR misery.

first, do NOT buy into this BS that your wife came to you, wanted MC becasue your relationship was down. I DID do that, went to MC, and my wife was grilled by the MC about her unhappiness. My wife had an affair anyway. yours would have too. sure, you are responsible for 50% of the problems in your marriage, BUT SO IS SHE, so she doesnt get a pass, and an affair only makes things worse. and thats ALL on her.

second, she is feedking you lies, trickle truthing you, gas lighting you and PLAYING YOU FOR A FOOL. all this has to stop and that means NOW. this is how you do it: you lay down the law, and if she doesnt like it, you move out and file IMMEDIATELY. the law means, she quits her job, social media like facebook is gone. you have her passwords, in other words she is 100% totally open and honest.

third, you expose, and dont even tell her about it. this is the bed she made. if lying in it is too difficult, then dump her ass!

fourth, she has to "come clean" about the affair and any other BS she has been feeding you. tell her its a deal breaker unless she can "clear the skeletons" you ca not live with them hanging over you.

fifth.....and this will seem weird, but it has been said here. you have to be willing to loose the realtionship to save it. that means divorcing here. i say this becasue your wife views you as a spineless wimp with your balls in her purse. you need to show her you are in control now. MAN UP! file immediately and show her you mean business! let her earn you back back her actions without knowing she has you in her pocket.

doing anything else other than above just proves to her you are a doormat waiting for her to walk on. you need to show her the game is OVER.


----------



## x598

razgor said:


> Like a moth to a flame, keep getting draw back here.
> 
> To be clear, I treated her like crap for years. I confronted her about the affair just over a month ago. Before that I basically ignored her most of the time. And during the last month it has been full blown battle between us. Is it realistic to expect her to be remorseful about the affair at this particular time?
> 
> We agreed to work on our marriage. We did not agree that the marriage is saved.


To be clear, I treated her like crap for years.:rofl:

and she could have left, divorced you, pressed for MC, whatever. sorry, this is where she too is at fault. banging some other guy isnt the way you resolve marriage issue. it just makes them 100x worse.

so get that OUT OF YOUR HEAD that she has some reason to cheat, because there are none. blaming yourself for her affair is pretty standard around here, it comes after the gut-punch, loss of self-esteem and massive crush of your ego. tell her to go back to the prick, then. 

why does she want you back NOW?? if you were so horrible than she should be relieved thats its finally in the open and she can move on with lover boy. dont buy into the fanatsy BS. she is feeding you and you are lapping it up out of your hand.


----------



## Chaparral

Be absolutely sure you read the mmslp book linked to below. It is an education in male female relationships. If you want her you have to have love AND reapect for your manhood. Accepting a cheating wife knocks her respect for you. You HAVE to rebuild her respect.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

x598 said:


> Razgor
> 
> take my advice, from having walked in your shoes. you are making all the mistakes i made. all it does is prolong YOUR misery.
> 
> first, do NOT buy into this BS that your wife came to you, wanted MC becasue your relationship was down. I DID do that, went to MC, and my wife was grilled by the MC about her unhappiness. My wife had an affair anyway. yours would have too. sure, you are responsible for 50% of the problems in your marriage, BUT SO IS SHE, so she doesnt get a pass, and an affair only makes things worse. and thats ALL on her.
> 
> second, she is feedking you lies, trickle truthing you, gas lighting you and PLAYING YOU FOR A FOOL. all this has to stop and that means NOW. this is how you do it: you lay down the law, and if she doesnt like it, you move out and file IMMEDIATELY. the law means, she quits her job, social media like facebook is gone. you have her passwords, in other words she is 100% totally open and honest.
> 
> third, you expose, and dont even tell her about it. this is the bed she made. if lying in it is too difficult, then dump her ass!
> 
> fourth, she has to "come clean" about the affair and any other BS she has been feeding you. tell her its a deal breaker unless she can "clear the skeletons" you ca not live with them hanging over you.
> 
> fifth.....and this will seem weird, but it has been said here. you have to be willing to loose the realtionship to save it. that means divorcing here. i say this becasue your wife views you as a spineless wimp with your balls in her purse. you need to show her you are in control now. MAN UP! file immediately and show her you mean business! let her earn you back back her actions without knowing she has you in her pocket.
> 
> doing anything else other than above just proves to her you are a doormat waiting for her to walk on. you need to show her the game is OVER.











"I warn them, but do they listen? Nooo!"


He's chosen to learn the hard way on this.

There's not much we can do for him until he comes back.

After... You know, it happens again.


----------



## tom67

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> "I warn them, but do they listen? Nooo!"
> 
> 
> He's chosen to learn the hard way on this.
> 
> There's not much we can do for him until he comes back.
> 
> After... You know, it happens again.


Sigh...
I know.


----------



## Dyokemm

I think Bandit is right...he is being entirely driven by fear right now.

I remember a training exercise I went through at the Naval Academy where the instructor kept stressing the fact that 'fear kills'.

What he meant was not that you needed to rid yourself of fear and anxiety, which is actually an impossibility. He meant that you cannot let your decision making be driven by fear.

He talked about how it made you freeze and second guess yourself if you didn't keep it under control, and those mistakes were almost guaranteed to kill you...if effect, lose control of it, and your fears will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Every time I read a thread where a BS is making mistakes based on their fears of losing their M, I am instantly reminded of that training.


----------



## Chaparral

Who told you she met with his wife? Cheaters are very good at lying, shockinly so.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

bandit.45 said:


> How did you treat her like crap? Did you really? Or are you only agreeing with the rewrite of the marital history she has shoved down your throat?
> 
> Can you give us actual samples of your bad behavior? Did you beat her, verbally abuse her, mentally abuse her, ignore her, kill her cat? What did you do to appear to be such a Nazi war criminal in her mind?


Respectfully, this type of reasoning can be dangerous. It seems like the default position to take is the WS automatically rewrites marital history to justify an affair. No doubt this happens in some cases. In other cases, the BS does treat his marriage (and WS) like crap prior to any cheating. I'm not saying it's justification for cheating, but it can also lead a BS to believing that his/her way of acting in the marriage had zero bearing on whether a WS elects to cheat. 

We should know better that sometimes, a WS DOES cheat because of the behavior of a BS. From my experience in the real world, the cheaters I've seen were largely rational people who felt pushed into a corner and used cheating as a coping mechanism. It may not be the right way to deal with a problem, but when you have kids and you've worked equally hard to build up equity in a house, retirement, etc. - I can understand why cheating would appear to be a possible decision to cope with a bad situation.


----------



## badmemory

razgor said:


> Is it realistic to expect her to be remorseful about the affair at this particular time?


Realistic? Not necessarily.

Needed for her to save her marriage? Absolutely. She needs to believe that it is. And you shouldn't accept anything less than genuine remorse. Part of her demonstrating remorse is being truthful and owning what she did. When a WS doesn't show that remorse; it's either because they don't believe you'll leave them, or they don't care.

And that's the point we've been trying to make to you razgor; apparently unsuccessfully.


----------



## mahike

badmemory said:


> Realistic? Not necessarily.
> 
> Needed for her to save her marriage? Absolutely. She needs to believe that it is. And you shouldn't accept anything less than genuine remorse. Part of her demonstrating remorse is being truthful and owning what she did. When a WS doesn't show that remorse; it's either because they don't believe you'll leave them, or they don't care.
> 
> And that's the point we've been trying to make to you razgor; apparently unsuccessfully.


You hit that nail on the head. She does not believe you would really leave her. She does not really feel the risk of losing the family


----------



## happy as a clam

razgor said:


> *My wife is still very adamant that there was no intercourse.* She was in love with him and things happened. Honestly, it does not make that huge of a difference to me. She betrayed me either way. Anything else is just splitting hairs.


I understand why you wouldn't want to know the nitty-gritty details. But it SHOULD make a difference to you whether or not there was intercourse because you need to know whether or not she continues to lie. Because if she is lying about the "no intercourse" thing, then your whole R will be based on a lie. And we all know that relationships need to be built on truth and honesty, not rebuilt on a shaky foundation of lies.

Just my 2 cents...


----------



## x598

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Respectfully, this type of reasoning can be dangerous. It seems like the default position to take is the WS automatically rewrites marital history to justify an affair. No doubt this happens in some cases. In other cases, the BS does treat his marriage (and WS) like crap prior to any cheating. I'm not saying it's justification for cheating, but it can also lead a BS to believing that his/her way of acting in the marriage had zero bearing on whether a WS elects to cheat.
> 
> We should know better that sometimes, a WS DOES cheat because of the behavior of a BS. From my experience in the real world, the cheaters I've seen were largely rational people who felt pushed into a corner and used cheating as a coping mechanism. It may not be the right way to deal with a problem, but when you have kids and you've worked equally hard to build up equity in a house, retirement, etc. - I can understand why cheating would appear to be a possible decision to cope with a bad situation.


 the problem is that it just doesnt make sense as most of the time the WS wants back to R.

to me, that means the the WS, who was so unhappy and beaten down that they had to go have an affair, was EQUALLY AT FAULT for the lack of communication and loss of motivation to improve the relationship.

bottom line litmus test.......if the WS wants to R......then they werent so unhappy and the BS wasnt so horrible that an affair was the right way to fix things. 

all that talk is just blame shifting and re-write so they can cope and look in the mirror after the reality of what they have done hits home.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

x598 said:


> the problem is that it just doesnt make sense as most of the time the WS wants back to R.
> 
> to me, that means the the WS, who was so unhappy and beaten down that they had to go have an affair, was EQUALLY AT FAULT for the lack of communication and loss of motivation to improve the relationship.
> 
> bottom line litmus test.......if the WS wants to R......then they werent so unhappy and the BS wasnt so horrible that an affair was the right way to fix things.
> 
> all that talk is just blame shifting and re-write so they can cope and look in the mirror after the reality of what they have done hits home.


I'm not saying that's always the case, that it's either one or the other. No doubt many of them are both. But it's not safe to assume that in all these cases the communication doesn't happen. I think in most cases - at least in the real world - it does happen. Either one or both refuse to listen to the other. It has just as much to do with selfishness as it does with not communicating. 

We see here and in the real world frequently how a BS or WS expresses concerns about a specific issue(s) and the other spouse trivializing it and saying "everything's fine" or "I'll work on that later, but right now things are too stressful/busy/insert other excuse. 

I'm not saying it's always 100% on one or the other spouse. What I am saying is that we should not automatically assume that all WS's are trying to rewrite marital history. Nor should we assume that all BS's are purely innocent while all WS's are the spawn of Satan. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.


----------



## bandit.45

Razgor, your WW knows you know she had intercourse with the OM. But she will never admit it because she knows you will never do what you need to do to force her to come clean. Quid pro quo requires leverage and you have exerted none. You won't push, she won't budge, and the two of you remain in limbo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> razgor, hour ww knows you know she had intercourse with the om. But she will never admit it because she knows you will never do what you need to do to force her to come clean. Quid pro quo requires leverage and you have exerted none. You won't push, she won't budge, and the two of you remain in limbo.
> _posted via mobile device_


bingo!!!


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

bandit.45 said:


> Razgor, your WW knows you know she had intercourse with the OM. But she will never admit it because she knows you will never do what you need to do to force her to come clean. Quid pro quo requires leverage and you have exerted none. You won't push, she won't budge, and the two of you remain in limbo.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This thread's title should be changed from Woke up......

To, Woke up and then went back to sleep......


----------



## x598

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'm not saying that's always the case, that it's either one or the other. No doubt many of them are both. But it's not safe to assume that in all these cases the communication doesn't happen. I think in most cases - at least in the real world - it does happen. Either one or both refuse to listen to the other. It has just as much to do with selfishness as it does with not communicating.
> 
> We see here and in the real world frequently how a BS or WS expresses concerns about a specific issue(s) and the other spouse trivializing it and saying "everything's fine" or "I'll work on that later, but right now things are too stressful/busy/insert other excuse.
> 
> I'm not saying it's always 100% on one or the other spouse. What I am saying is that we should not automatically assume that all WS's are trying to rewrite marital history. Nor should we assume that all BS's are purely innocent while all WS's are the spawn of Satan. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.


the middle seems to be reserved for the WS that actually understand what they did was horribly wrong, do their best to atone and repair the damage they created, provide open honest insight as to why they REALLY did it and work to reduce the suffering of the BS. to me, that is a real remourseful spouse, one who would be a realistic person to R with.

but in most cases here, the WS lies, denies, TT's, blame-shifts, and so forth. its a pattern seen over and over again. and that is the proof that there is very little, if any, hope of a real R. i mean seriously, look at the OP of this thread. it follows right down the script. sad to see.


----------



## razgor

Not going to respond to single posts, but let me post a few thoughts. I will break it up into two posts. So there is no massive wall of text.

Perhaps I was being a little vague when I said I drank too much and treated my wife like crap. I have always been a heavy drinker, but the last 3 years I have been a functioning alcoholic. Drinking 5-6 days a week, probably 8-12 drinks a day. I did all the things alcoholics do, lied to my wife every day I drank, lied to the people around me, hid alcohol. I got belligerent when people approached me about it. 

I would rather not kiss or hug my wife then have her smell alcohol and start a fight. We would go weeks without kissing or being in close contact. I hardly ever initiated sex. It always meant she would smell alcohol. We hardly ever went out on dates and she was always the one who arranged them. Of course, I was almost always drunk during the date. We hardly talked, I could go all day at work without calling or texting her. And vice versa. I got into the habit of not being around her or touching her even when I was sober. This was all pre-affair and during the affair.

But she was no awesome wife pre-affair by any means. She has work to do their as well. Just like I have other issues to address as well. But those are the two massive wounds in our marriage right now. Her affair and my alcoholism.

So let’s talk about blame shifting. She had initially tried to blame me for the affair. But one of the things this web site and the book “Surviving an Affair” helped me with is to hold her accountable for her actions. I can certainly see how she was unhappy. Or how she could convince herself that by having the affair she could keep our marriage going in. Granted, some weird zombie marriage. But it does not excuse her actions. I feel bad for how I treated her. But just because I feel remorse for my actions does not mean that I am accepting the blame for the affair. The affair was 100% her choice. Just like my drinking issues was 100% my choice. We BOTH destroyed our marriage. There is no need to rewrite history here. We should have divorced. 

I don’t see this as a contest between us on who did the most damage to the marriage or each other. We both are taking responsibility for our actions. Just because I was an alcoholic does not give her a free pass. At the same time, her cheating does not give me a free pass. I think that is critical aspect that some BS forget about. Reverse blame shifting. When the BS rewrites their own martial history. One thing I think that really must happen for reconciliation to start is for both the WW and BS re-evaluate the entire marriage. And accept responsibility for their own actions. And more importantly, fix their own issue.


----------



## razgor

As for the affair, it appears to be over. I have checked multiple ways. But a quick recap:

1.	The wife has committed to no contact with the OM

2. The OM and my wife have changed schedules and work in physically different offices in different cities

3.	The affair has been exposed to the OM wife, their employer, key friends and family members. I certain that since most of her friends are co-workers and know each other that news of the affair will spread to everyone. I have mixed feelings about everyone knowing about it. Most of our friends are married. Sure, they will keep pressure on her. But it does feel humiliating to me. 

4.	The wife has agreed to transparency. We are using software to check her deleted messages, she gave me all social media, email and financial passwords.

5.	The final piece on transparency was her agreeing to give me her phone account password. The phone company kept the numbers dialed and texted since Jan 2013. It was tough to review that history. But I committed to myself to not get angry with that. I knew they texted a lot. I just asked for that last week and it confirmed there was no calls

6.	The wife has stopped trying to blame me for the affair.

7.	The wife admitted to being in love with him and that they had physical contact.

8.	She said her primary reason for the affair was for the emotional support and attention he gave her. Yes, they talked a LOT. If I would have been even remotely engaged in the marriage I would have uncovered the affair a long time ago. They frequently talked when I was home and I did not want to be bothered by her.

9.	I am on the look out for a separate phone or other means of hidden contact. But I have not found anything.

Currently we are both seeing a MC, she is also seeing a IC. And I am starting with alcohol counseling. I still not drinking (34 days, the longest I have gone with out a drink my entire adult life) and have no plans to resume anytime soon. If ever. We are both reading the book “Surviving an Affair” which was recommend here. And we are following the steps. Trying to spend as much time as possible together and stay in contact throughout the day.

As for remorse, even the book “Surviving an Affair” said you should not expect true remorse right away. On some levels my wife hates me. Just like I hate her for the affair. But we are working on it. Maybe the first few baby steps at reconciliation. Six weeks ago today I was stopping by liquor store and she was texting the OM. Each of us living our own secret life. It has been a long and hard six weeks tearing those secret lives down.

One poster did ask why she wants to be with me now. Which is really good question. I think we still love each other and I think we both want to make our family work. Give a chance to see if we can work it out. I think I filled certain of her needs, like being a good father (I almost always did not drink heavy until the kids had gone to bed) and we have always been friends. 

With that said, we both agreed to deal breakers in this process. Her restarting the affair or me falling into the alcohol trap again. My wife has confessed that she is terrified we will get into a happy place in our marriage and then I will screw up. Just like I am terrified I am trying to work on our marriage and she reignites her affair. But like the MC said, there is no guarantees in life. There is no way to be a 100% certain. Focus on yourself, do your best in the marriage if you really want to give it another chance. And of course trust nothing. Always be on guard.

Sorry for the long post. I do like posting here because it helps me organize my thoughts. Oh, apparently my screen name is from World of Warcraft. Never played the game before. Just saw the name somewhere else on the internet and decided to use it.


----------



## Machiavelli

Chap suggested you read Married Man Sex Life Primer. You really, really need to read that book. It's a quick distillation of what you need to do to keep a woman's intent interest over a long relationship. I highly recommend it.


----------



## razgor

Machiavelli said:


> Chap suggested you read Married Man Sex Life Primer. You really, really need to read that book. It's a quick distillation of what you need to do to keep a woman's intent interest over a long relationship. I highly recommend it.


Yep, that is on my reading list. I am hoping that book is funnier to read AND practice then the affair book.


----------



## mahike

I am glad to hear about your not drinking. I know that is also a long hard road and I wish you all the best. 

I am also happy to hear about the MC but whpatever happens do not let the MC or your wife move off topic of the PA until you are ready. Find out what you need to know.

I am very concerned from your prior posts that you would rugsweep. Please do not let that happen.

Keep us up to date on what is going on. I know many of us will cheer you on with the no drinking thing.


----------



## Machiavelli

mahike said:


> Keep us up to date on what is going on. I know many of us will cheer you on with the no drinking thing.


That and the weight training. You did get back on a program, didn't you, Razgor?


----------



## tom67

razgor said:


> Yep, that is on my reading list. I am hoping that book is funnier to read AND practice then the affair book.


Good to hear.
Like with the drinking, one day at a time.
Trust but VERIFY!


----------



## razgor

Machiavelli said:


> That and the weight training. You did get back on a program, didn't you, Razgor?


Yep, working out, lifting and losing weight! Down close to 20 pounds. I will have to go buy some new clothes soon. Even the wife has bought me some new shirts. No beer, working out constantly and stress levels through the roof really burns off the weight. Not that I would recommend the affair program to anyone interested in losing weight, lol.

I think the whole getting out of shape is a big problem for many marriages. Woman may say that it is not super important, but go eavesdrop on their conversations for a couple of days and you will learn the real truth. Everyone wants their spouse to be hot and dress nice!


----------



## tom67

razgor said:


> Yep, working out, lifting and losing weight! Down close to 20 pounds. I will have to go buy some new clothes soon. Even the wife has bought me some new shirts. No beer, working out constantly and stress levels through the roof really burns off the weight. Not that I would recommend the affair program to anyone interested in losing weight, lol.
> 
> I think the whole getting out of shape is a big problem for many marriages. Woman may say that it is not super important, but go eavesdrop on their conversations for a couple of days and you will learn the real truth. Everyone wants their spouse to be hot and dress nice!


Razgor it's biology in the limbic/reptilian brain you are absolutely correct.


----------



## happyman64

Good Recap Razgor.

And I think it is very good that while your wife worries you will go back to drinking, you worry that she will resume her affair.

Just make sure she understands that while you both have your concerns your primary goal is to work on yourself and support each other doing just that.

And it seems you are both doing that.

Stay at it Razgor. Don't quit.

HM


----------



## theroad

You WW is still trickle truthing. They all do.

Schedule a polygraph test. Your WW should have no problem taking one. After all she says she has not lied about the affair. The test will just confirm that.

In an affair for years and the OM never had his hot dog in your WW's bun.

I have a bridge for sale for you. It is in Brooklyn.

That friend/baby sitter has to go.


----------



## workindad

Your story sounds like TT to me. If you follow thru with the polygraph- do not be surprised by a parking lot confession.

A 3 year affair with a coworker that she has easy access to and was in love with and they didn't have sex? That part is very hard to believe. Very, very hard to believe.


----------



## terrence4159

oh he is still asleep so asleep it is scary, ohh they still work together just at differnt times wink wink but there is no contact.

where they work there is ex navy seals and marines that roam the parimeter that allows no one to leave or enter the building unless they are scheduled to be there and lunch has to be taken in a steel 4 foot long by 2 foot wide room with no windows. so no way they meet oh say in their cars to keep doing it like they have been for over a year. and no computers or even allowed to go talk to other employees, breaks there are isolated too. 

i know most of you are all hey they still work together so they can communicate all they want but nope the employers even have snipers set up watching if any co workers try talking to each other......BOOM......a new job opening. so yeah no way they are still communicating or boinking like porn stars. 

not like she knows how you busted her and knows how to cover her tracks. 

but hey if you are happy being her silver medal more power to you.


----------



## bandit.45

Razor are you attending AA meetings weekly? Do you have a sponsor? I sponsor three guys and have my own really good sponsor I can call 24/7. He holds my feet to the fire....no bullish!t. It helps.


----------



## Dyokemm

The most worrisome thing about Razgor's situation IMO is that he doesn't seem to see that his WW refusing to be absolutely open and honest about the extent of her betrayal is, in fact, a failure to truly own what she has done to destroy their M.

Razgor, you are doing an excellent job in seeking help with the alcohol...it shows clearly you do understand and are taking true ownership of your part in destroying your M.

Because she is still being deceptive and dishonest with you, I DO NOT think your WW is matching your effort and truly owning her own mistakes.

I'm pulling for you, but I do not honestly think this will work under these conditions.


----------



## razgor

bandit.45 said:


> Razor are you attending AA meetings weekly? Do you have a sponsor? I sponsor three guys and have my own really good sponsor I can call 24/7. He holds my feet to the fire....no bullish!t. It helps.


I attended 1 AA meeting. I really did not care for it. It actually made me crave a drink, lol! Still not drinking day 46 - yeah!

I will admit I have been struggling lately with the wife. I just don't trust her. She is working on our marriage for sure and sex life has been rocking. We are spending all of our free time together. But still, it is *hard*. Especially now that more people know about her affair it feels down right humiliating when I am around other men. Plus it really pisses me off to see all the texts and phone calls she made during important events. During our anniversary and vacations. It really makes me hate her. I guess that is one of the downsides to being able to go through old phone/text logs on her phone.

But one reason I am posting her is because of two deleted texts. One was from an entirely different man - another coworker. Apparently my wife had made something to eat and brought it in to work. He had texted if *I* had made it and it would be weird if I had made it. He also texted that she would feel weird if she ate something his wife brought in. Then in another text to one of her girlfriends she said she felt guilty about texting the other guy. This was while she was hot and heavy in her affair, so I think she feels guilty about texting this guy while she is seeing the other guy.

I just don't know what to do about that. It is pretty slim evidence, but the texts are strange! Now this other coworker is someone I was suspicious of before - several years ago. She claims they were good friends and that is all. I have not confronted her yet about the two texts. Not sure if I should or what the best approach is. Polygraph seems extreme. It does want to make me run a paternity test on my kids. Just the thought of that makes me queasy. It makes me hate her soo much. Could this affair I found be a one time event or is she a serial cheater?

IDK, I don't have much hope for our marriage to be honest. I doubt everything she says. And I am re-evaluating past events knowing she is willing cheat. I am starting to wonder if our whole life together was lie. Just have a bad feeling, I don't think anything is going on now. But what about latter.


----------



## tom67

razgor said:


> I attended 1 AA meeting. I really did not care for it. It actually made me crave a drink, lol! Still not drinking day 46 - yeah!
> 
> I will admit I have been struggling lately with the wife. I just don't trust her. She is working on our marriage for sure and sex life has been rocking. We are spending all of our free time together. But still, it is *hard*. Especially now that more people know about her affair it feels down right humiliating when I am around other men. Plus it really pisses me off to see all the texts and phone calls she made during important events. During our anniversary and vacations. It really makes me hate her. I guess that is one of the downsides to being able to go through old phone/text logs on her phone.
> 
> But one reason I am posting her is because of two deleted texts. One was from an entirely different man - another coworker. Apparently my wife had made something to eat and brought it in to work. He had texted if *I* had made it and it would be weird if I had made it. He also texted that she would feel weird if she ate something his wife brought in. Then in another text to one of her girlfriends she said she felt guilty about texting the other guy. This was while she was hot and heavy in her affair, so I think she feels guilty about texting this guy while she is seeing the other guy.
> 
> I just don't know what to do about that. It is pretty slim evidence, but the texts are strange! Now this other coworker is someone I was suspicious of before - several years ago. She claims they were good friends and that is all. I have not confronted her yet about the two texts. Not sure if I should or what the best approach is. Polygraph seems extreme. It does want to make me run a paternity test on my kids. Just the thought of that makes me queasy. It makes me hate her soo much. Could this affair I found be a one time event or is she a serial cheater?
> 
> IDK, I don't have much hope for our marriage to be honest. I doubt everything she says. And I am re-evaluating past events knowing she is willing cheat. I am starting to wonder if our whole life together was lie. Just have a bad feeling, I don't think anything is going on now. But what about latter.


Another man?
I was going to say stick a var in her car but what is the point.:slap::slap:
She is only sorry she got caught.
I don't know bro.
For your sanity do the DNA tests.


----------



## workindad

Razgor. Paternity testing is cheap easy painless and private. Your wife does not need to participate. You can order kits online or buy them in a drug store. Spend a few minutes on google looking for paternity testing. Unfortunately I had a need to check my kids they are both mine. That was a worry resolved. It will likely cost around a hundred bucks give or take.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## razgor

workindad said:


> Razgor. Paternity testing is cheap easy painless and private. Your wife does not need to participate. You can order kits online or buy them in a drug store. Spend a few minutes on google looking for paternity testing. Unfortunately I had a need to check my kids they are both mine. That was a worry resolved. It will likely cost around a hundred bucks give or take.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have been doing that. These are all old texts back from April of this year. I don't think anything was going on between them recently - the last 1.5 years. The wifes call logs are dominated by calls from the other man. I have accounted for just about every number she called with any frequency since Jan 2013. There are no unknown numbers.

I just am wondering if it is hinting at an affair prior to the one I uncovered. One that may have happened 7-9 years ago, which was when I was suspicious.


----------



## Clay2013

I tested both of my younger kids last year. It cost me 200 for both. It took three weeks to get the results back but It was worth it. It took me two weeks to open the results because of my own fear. I am glad I did it. They are my kids and I am thankful that I have put that fear to rest. 

If you don't put your fears to rest as much as you can then reconciling will be next to impossible. Some cheaters do change and become better people but sadly its just not often. 

The sooner you deal with these fears the better off you will be. 

Clay


----------



## convert

does she still work with the one from 7-9 years ago?

is there any way to dig for more information?

maybe have the VARS in place and let it slip that you found some more evidence about this other guy and you need to talk to his wife and step back and see if she tries damage control.

maybe contact him and let him know you know everything and want to hear his side of the story (I am not sure this would work).


----------



## razgor

convert said:


> does she still work with the one from 7-9 years ago?
> 
> is there any way to dig for more information?


Yes. They used to work together a lot 7-9 years ago. But it all changed when my wife got a promotion. Worked in different buildings. Now in the last couple of weeks his schedule was changed and they work in the same office one day a week. I have been trying to dig up some information, but other then the two deleted texts there is no trail or connection. No phone calls. If something was going on recently then I would have expected to see calls. TBH, I am pretty sure the wife was obsessed with the other guy. The one I found out about.

I know they have spoken recently because the wife had mentioned him in conversation. But it was just small talk stuff. I have no evidence of anything going on between them other then a suspicion years ago and the two strange deleted texts.

I am not sure if I should confront the wife on the meager evidence I have. Or just wait and watch. Waiting and watching sucks. Feels like I am in limbo.


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## Dyokemm

Those two texts are pretty dam*ing evidence in my opinion, especially the first you quoted.

Why in the he*l would it be weird/uncomfortable for either of them to eat some food they brought to work made by their spouses?...unless of course there was some deeper secret connection between them that would amount to a BS preparing a meal for their WS's AP.

This is an example of the impossibility of true R without complete confession and honesty from her, Razgor.

I understand you are probably afraid of what a polygraph and/ot a DNA test will reveal, but can you honestly see a way forward without knowing the extent of the damage she has done to the M on her side?

Get to the bottom of all this TT quick, Razfor, if you want any chance of saving your M...stop making decisions based on fear.


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## razgor

Dyokemm said:


> Those two texts are pretty dam*ing evidence in my opinion, especially the first you quoted.
> 
> Why in the he*l would it be weird/uncomfortable for either of them to eat some food they brought to work made by their spouses?...unless of course there was some deeper secret connection between them that would amount to a BS preparing a meal for their WS's AP.
> 
> This is an example of the impossibility of true R without complete confession and honesty from her, Razgor.
> 
> I understand you are probably afraid of what a polygraph and/ot a DNA test will reveal, but can you honestly see a way forward without knowing the extent of the damage she has done to the M on her side?
> 
> Get to the bottom of all this TT quick, Razfor, if you want any chance of saving your M...stop making decisions based on fear.


Not afraid of losing the wife at all. Just not sure I want to blow a grand on a poly to confirm or not confirm based on such evidence. The DNA testing is another story. That *does* paralyze me with fear.

Even though I feel pretty confident the kids are mine. Neither was an accident and at both times we tried for several months. It was a conscious decision. On the second we even went to a fertility clinic. Still this whole affair thing creates just enough doubt. But the test would remove mountains of stress from my life. Probably worth the money. The poly, not so sure.

I have already committed myself to ending the marriage outright if she cheats again. No chances, no talk. Just straight file for divorce.


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## convert

I agree with Dyokemm but getting all the truth is the hard part

maybe causally mention to your wife this other guy (7-9 years ago) wife wants to talk to you
again have the VARs in place and see if she does damage control.

just trying of a way to get more info Without going the poly for now

do this on a friday so she can't run into work next day and talk with this other guy. (you probably don't have a way for a VAR at her work.)


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## razgor

convert said:


> I agree with Dyokemm but getting all the truth is the hard part
> 
> maybe causally mention to your wife this other guy (7-9 years ago) wife wants to talk to you
> again have the VARs in place and see if she does damage control.
> 
> just trying of a way to get more info Without going the poly for now
> 
> do this on a friday so she can't run into work next day and talk with this other guy. (you probably don't have a way for a VAR at her work.)


Getting the truth is the hard part. 

That idea is really risky, could easily blow up. We have never had contact before. That would lead to instant high alert from her.

What do you think about confronting the wife on the two texts? Not very incriminating. Suspicious, but not convincing.


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## convert

Yea it is tricky it could blow up


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## Dyokemm

How about really going to POS's BW with that text?...tell her it concerns you and ask her if she ever had any suspicions.


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## Dyokemm

After all, she may have info that you can no longer get a hold of.


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## tom67

Dyokemm said:


> How about really going to POS's BW with that text?...tell her it concerns you and ask her if she ever had any suspicions.


This^^^is the right way to go Razgor.
Please do this then if it gets back to your w you will see how she reacts.


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## convert

no you don't have enough to confront you wife yet


unless you bluff and say you have more but want to get her side but again it could blow up in your face.

I like the idea of going to the oM wife like Dyokemm said


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## razgor

Dyokemm said:


> How about really going to POS's BW with that text?...tell her it concerns you and ask her if she ever had any suspicions.


That is a possibility. It would definitely blow into a crap storm though. Even if nothing was going on. He is friends with a number of our good friends and I want a little more proof before that route.

The coworker probably already knows about the wife's affair ending. Think I will wait and see if anything more incriminating comes out.


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## bandit.45

razgor said:


> Not afraid of losing the wife at all.


Yes you are. Your lack of action so far screams fear.


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## bandit.45

razgor said:


> Think I will wait and see if anything more incriminating comes out.


See this is the problem Razgor.... You wait and wait and wait hoping for that smoking gun so you can bust her clean. 

Problem is, this is not an issue about busting her. This is about your self respect and self worth... Not about beating her.

The first time she cheated on you you granted her undeserved grace by sweeping it under the rug and not dealing with the underlying issue, the issue being she is a degenerate liar and blame shifter. 

Now she is actively cheating on you a second time....AND now her former affair partner from years ago has returned to her place of work and all she can muster is to mention it in passing? :scratchhead:

Are you fvcking kidding me?

You have given her enough chances. You have MORE than enough evidence to slam her and end this farce of a marriage. But you seem so afraid of change, and so afraid no other woman will have you, that you balk.


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## turnera

razgor said:


> I am not sure if I should confront the wife on the meager evidence I have. Or just wait and watch. Waiting and watching sucks. Feels like I am in limbo.


Ok, here's the deal. If you're talking about the old AP. I can't quite tell if you are, or are just talking about this new guy she's been texting.

SHE ruined things, and it needs to be HER making changes to fix it. 

The very first thing that needs to be changed aside from the typical therapy etc. is that either SHE needs a new job or HE needs to be gone from her job. Period.

Go to her, tell her that you know they are still communicating, and you cannot remain married if she chooses to allow that. Her choice, lose you or change the situation.

If it's the new guy, tell her you saw it and it WILL stop. Period.


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## razgor

I think people are getting mixed up here.

I uncovered the one affair back in May. That was what 99% what this thread is about. That affair has ended to the best of my knowledge. 

During my follow ups on deleted text messages I found the weird text messages from the other co-worker. Those were from March and there was two of them.

I thought they were strange. Basically he stated it would be weird to eat something I made. But that is all I got. That just made me wonder if there was other affairs that had occurred before the one I found out about in May.


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## tom67

razgor said:


> I think people are getting mixed up here.
> 
> I uncovered the one affair back in May. That was what 99% what this thread is about. That affair has ended to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> During my follow ups on deleted text messages I found the weird text messages from the other co-worker. Those were from March and there was two of them.
> 
> I thought they were strange. Basically he stated it would be weird to eat something I made. But that is all I got. That just made me wonder if there was other affairs that had occurred before the one I found out about in May.


This other guy have a wife?
Meet her for a coffee and ask if she had any suspicions back in the day.


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## 6301

razgor said:


> I think people are getting mixed up here.
> 
> I uncovered the one affair back in May. That was what 99% what this thread is about. That affair has ended to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> During my follow ups on deleted text messages I found the weird text messages from the other co-worker. Those were from March and there was two of them.
> 
> I thought they were strange. Basically he stated it would be weird to eat something I made. But that is all I got. That just made me wonder if there was other affairs that had occurred before the one I found out about in May.


 Truth be told, one affair should be enough and now you have these two other texts that suggest to you that sh might have had another affair.

Bet you anything that she sleeps better than you at night and her mind is not a clogged up as yours.

IMO, spend the money and get her to take a polygraph and get your answers. If it proves that she was more unfaithful then you thought then you have your answer and then you know what to do. 

The only thing worse than your wife playing head games with you is you playing head games with yourself and that's what your doing.

Want to know the answers? Then get someone to ask them while she's taking the poly. 

If she refuses to take the test then you know what the answers are. Quit tying yourself in knots and find out so you can at least get what you want.


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## razgor

Hi everyone, it has been a while since I posted here and I wanted to give an update. I took a break for a bit because I was just getting overly paranoid. It is hard to read other peoples stories here and not become convinced your WW is doing the same.

So the last two months has seen a dramatic turnaround in our marriage. We are both actively working at making the other person happy. We spend a ton of time together, go to bed at the same time, talk throughout the day, have stopped arguing and have had the best sex life in probably seven years! We have had only one major argument in the last two months. Which is saying a lot compared to where we were at just back in May. Even our children are happier.

We are still seeing a MC weekly. And reading several books on improving our marriage. It is a lot of work but worth it. It is hard to put down the anger, but that is the only way. For both of us.

I am working out, dressing better and putting a priority on myself. I went 2 full months without drinking and I now only allow myself 2-3 drinks at one sitting. I only drink in social settings and I never drink without first discussing it with my wife. When I look back over the years I have no idea how or why I drank so much. It seemed like a massive waste of time. We are still checking the wifes phone. Plus she has been completely open with it.

We are on the road of reconciliation. We are both surprised at how quickly the marriage has turned around and we both are really happy with the path our marriage is on. The challenge for us is too keep up the momentum and be on guard for anything that could interfere in our marriage.

Thanks for all the advice here.


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## Doyle

Nice one mate 
all the best


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## happyman64

Congratulations Razgor!


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## razgor

Hello everyone, I just wanted to stop by and give a update. Me and the wife are continuing to work on our marriage and things are continuing to improve. It has been a long road and we have a long way to go still. I also wanted to give my thought on the reconcilation and the steps we are doing.

A quick recap for everyone, I found out my wife was having an affair back in early May with a married co-worker. I confronted her two days in a row. The fist day, I stated our marriage was in trouble and we needed to work on our marriage and see a counsoler. Hoping should would confess to the affair I already knew about. However, that did not work and the very next day she was texting him non-stop. So the next day I confronted her full on. She did not want to admit who she was talking to, but I knew who it was. And I told her. I threatned to tell his wife as well if she did not change her work schedule. I did my homework and had all the contact information for his wife. I got lots of trickle truth from her for the first couple of weeks. First, it was just a six month month affair, then it was a year and a half affair. First, it was only texting, then it was physical.

At my wifes work, they have multiple offices and they only worked together two days a week. The wife told her manager and she had her schedule moved a day. Suprisingly, her affair partner also had his schedule moved. So they did not work together at all. I was very firm on them not working together and on full transparency. She gave me all her passwords and I was able to verify the timeline of her affair. In the end numerous people from my wifes work knew, key family members knew and the OMs wife knew. All the important people. In fact, the OMs wife meet and talked to my wife over lunch.

Our marriage for the past two to three years had been horrible. We argued, spent hardly any time together, sex was non-existent and I was well on the road to becoming a full blown alcholic. Drinking heavily - 5 to 6 times a week.

I did a hard 180, started lifting weights again and losing weight. Dressing better and catching up with old friends. I also quit drinking two days after I confronted her. Not for her, but for myself. I also, monitored her contiunously.

We started going to marriage counsoling and we read several books on improving our marriage. I read the MMSLP. Some of the MMSLP is a little corny, but I really do think it is important to be both Alpha and Beta. I think in modern marriage you really have to work at being Alpha. Especially once small kids enter the marriage. And women really do respond to an assertive man. We spent time together every day, had talk time and our sex life came roaring back. We just had one of the best holidays together. The whole family, kids included seem much happier.

From my experience the following things were critical for us
1. Exposure: Blowing the affair up and making everyone around her aware of it. It really helped kill the affair and made change her work schedule easier. I think it shocked everyone. Including the OM.

2. The OM. I thought about it a lot and I think the exposure and the threat of losing his family really made him proactive in ending the affair. And keeping it closed. He also confessed the affair to several co-workers. One of the girls who works with him approached me at a Christmas party and confessed she was in my corner. She is friends with the OM and his wife as well as me and my wife. She wanted both of our marriages to rebuild. It was a good conversation with her.

3. Full transparency. The wife is completely open with her phone and passwords. I have full access to her phone and email.

4. Both of us taking responsibility for our marriage. At this point, my approach is different from what some people recommend. We both did the heavy lifting. The wife did not come back groveling, nor did she cry and say she is sorry for the affair. But we both have put tremendous effort in rebuilding our marriage. If I trigger, I try my hardest to be positive. I do not throw the affair in her face or use it as a weapon against her. But I have to accept and learn from the mistakes I made in the time leading up to her affair. I think it is critical for the BS to evaluate themselves as well. Not to accept the blame of the affair, but honestly access your own actions in the time leading up to it.

5. Our marriage was terrible before the affair. Of all the things, the fact that our marriage was so dreadful actually made it easier to forgive her. If things had been great or even OK in the time leading up to her affair I would have had a much harder time forgiving her. I probably could not to be honest. If I found out she was still seeing him or started another affair now I would file for divorce without hestitation.

So currently, we are both working out, spending tons of times together and really working at our marriage. We are still seeing the MC and I lurk on TAM a lot. It helps keep me focused and not let my guard down. Always be dilgent and aware of your spouse, work on meeting her needs and help your wife meet your own needs, and never forget to keep yourself happy. Sorry for the long post, but it helps to write down my own thoughts.


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## convert

Thanks for the update.

did coming here to TAM help you any?

did some of the suggestions posters made here on TAM help your R?


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## lordmayhem

Is there any way that she can change jobs completely and go completely NC with the OM? I know I would not tolerate it if my fWW worked in the same company with the OM. Even just two days a weeks is two days too many. NC means NC means NC - especially with her history of having affairs. This is her 2nd affair....that you know of.


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## razgor

convert said:


> Thanks for the update.
> 
> did coming here to TAM help you any?
> 
> did some of the suggestions posters made here on TAM help your R?



TAM was a great help for me. Advice on exposure, no contact, evidence gathering, boundaries, transparency, looking for the cheaters script & gaslighting. Plus the whole Alpha/Beta thing from MMSLP. To be honest, I would probably have rug sweet her affair and tried to win her back by being nice. I am 100% sure that would not have worked. 

I remember a couple of months after D-Day my wife talked about going back to work on her old schedule (her manager was pushing her too) and how she could handle working in the same office with the OM. I told her that would have serious repercussions on our marriage. Like divorce. She was taken back by that statement. She did not like being threatened. But I told her it was not threat, but no contact means no contact forever. And I wanted her to understand, that I would end it. I would never have said that before coming here. Today the thought of divorce no longer terrifies me. I will be ok, no matter what.

TAM can be a tough pill to swallow for sure and the advice is so different from what you read in the magazine articles! Some posters I really liked was Bandit, Long Walk, Marduke(just great life attitude!) and Conan(I loved reading those books as a kid). Lots of other great posters too. You guys do good work, no sugar coating.

But probably the best thing was just reading story after story from people going through this mess. To read about affairs going underground and how hard it is to really kill an affair. How being a doormat is a nightmare. LOL, reading that stuff will definitely give you a backbone. Probably a backbone that has been reinforced with steel! I don't think I will ever stop paying attention and looking for signs. I can never go back to being naive about human nature. Even if my current marriage ends, I will never make the mistake of thinking that my woman would never cheat.

As I mentioned earlier, the only thing I did different was pushing all the heavy lifting to her. Early on I gave her choice: rebuild an awesome life together or divorce. I have to live up to my end of the deal too! But I really only worked at meeting her needs after I felt the affair was over. But if reconciliation is going to work you both have to want it. And the BS has to do some heavy lifting too. Like letting go of that anger and trying to be a positive influence in your spouses life.


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## lordmayhem

Good job. I love reading a success story.


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## razgor

lordmayhem said:


> Is there any way that she can change jobs completely and go completely NC with the OM? I know I would not tolerate it if my fWW worked in the same company with the OM. Even just two days a weeks is two days too many. NC means NC means NC - especially with her history of having affairs. This is her 2nd affair....that you know of.


They work for the same company, but they work in two different physical offices in two different cities. They never see each other.


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## lordmayhem

razgor said:


> They work for the same company, but they work in two different physical offices in two different cities. They never see each other.


That's much better. Good job.


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