# Remember me? An update...



## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

So, about 2 years ago, I made this a post titled "no sexual attraction" (my previous username was PatriciaLee)

I went to therapy. I started citalopram. Upon starting citalopram, there was a slight improvement in my outlook (like, after the first pill) but I highly suspect it was a placebo effect. I went off of it after a year (it made me feel emotionless and dulled).

Slowly over the past two years, things have begun to get bad again. I was still having sex with my husband frequently to keep him happy (after 2 days without sex, he starts turning into an irritable ass), but about a month ago, I finally reached the point where I just could not do it anymore. And I told him. I have no connection with him. I wasn't having sex any more unless I wanted to.

He immediately chalked it up to me being depressed. He started trying to be the perfect husband: helping with the kids without me asking. Doing more around the house. Asking my opinion on things.

I agreed to see a sex therapist. It took a month to get an appointment. Then there was a snowstorm that cancelled my appointment. Just before my re-scheduled appointment, we had a bit of a fight and I broke down and told him everything I was uphappy with. How I've felt like i am not a priority. How things are always his way unless I put up a fight, which I hate. The sexual grievances from the past.

We ended that conversation both feeling hopeful that we could work through things as soon as I could see the therapist.

The Friday before I could see the therapist, we had friends over. (a couple who we are mutually friends with). We had some drinks. They brought some cannabis-infused "cookies" and a couple of joints. I haven't done any of that stuff in at least two years, but given how things have been lately, I was open to letting loose a bit. The night was a lot of fun. Husband was drinking a little (he was going on a 100km bike ride the next day and didn't want to feel too ****ty). I think he had 6 beer throughout the night and half of a "weed cookie." I had 6-7 drinks, a shot of whisky 1/2 a weed cookie and smoked a joint with my friend and her husband. I was feeling pretty good.

At the end of the night, when we went to bed, Husband was watching me get undressed, and I KNEW he wanted to have sex. I put on my pjs, and got in bed (laying on my stomach). I was seriously at a point where I was border-line passing out. My body felt like a bag of bricks, so when I hit the bed, I was NOT moving. I was ready to sleep.

He started touching me, and I remember thinking, "I'm just going to lie here and act like I'm passed out. When he realizes I'm passed out, he'll go to sleep and leave me alone."

I was wrong. Instead, he pulled my pants off, and had sex with me. Like forcibly spread my legs apart and everything. I just layed there. I didn't know what to do. I was so angry and upset inside, and also so drunk...

He was done quick. Like as fast as I realized what was happening it was pretty much over. He cleaned me up and pulled my pants up, which wasn't easy...but he did, then went to sleep.

The next morning, he came out and asked me if I was "Ok with having sex last night. You climbed in bed and pulled your pants down and stuff.."(WHICH I ****ING DIDN'T!!) 
I froze up and didn't want to have that conversation (our friends were still over, they stayed the night).So instead of addressing what happened, I said, "we had sex last night? I don't remember that."

Then he said, "oh well.. maybe I dreamed it. I was pretty sure we did..." and the conversation ended.

I later brought it up to him and he was remorseful. Said he thought I was ok until he was done and then freaked out because he thought I was passed out. Then he got mad and told me not to tell the therapist.

Previous to this, I was really hopeful the therapist could help me work through things. I did go to therapy and the therapist suggested I just forget about that incident because we were both drunk and and I can't hold it against him.. but I don't feel like things are that simple.

Throughout all of this, he's been threatening me with divorce. I've never once brought it up. He thinks I am depressed and was furious when I was not receptive to going back on medication if the therapist recommended it. When the therapist said he doesn't think I was/am depressed, husband again was mad and questioned if the therapist knows what he's doing. I've also overheard husband talking to his parents and telling them all sorts of malarky to make it seem like I am depressed.

Am I being ridiculous? Should I let the "friday night incident" go? I've only just begun therapy, but I am having a hard time seeing how I am going to get over yet another sexual issue in this relationship. He's trying really hard to be a "great husband" now... but I gotta say, the resentment I have from the past and more recent events is becoming more and more difficult to get past.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*What your H did to you was wrong and self-serving, and he needs to be sanctioned by the sex therapist for those actions of his. What he did was much like taking advantage of some passed-out sorority chick!

While his sex drive does seem normal for a male, you still have the problem. And I'd say that the jury is still out on that until such time that the sex therapist completes their examination of both you and your H. 

If the therapists regimen cannot ultimately help, I'm all too fearful that separation and divorce are inevitable! *


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I see your relationship as hopeless.
And he hapless. He should not have done what he did while you were drunk. Not good.

Neither of you are evil.

Rather than me, others, plastering names on either of you, I think a divorce is the best thing.

Not a separation, a divorce. 

Do so now, before even more resentment crops up.

You just aren't compatible, you just are not in love.




KB-


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

PatriciaLee said:


> Throughout all of this, he's been threatening me with divorce.


Why on EARTH you haven't jumped all over the opportunity to scrape this pig off your grill just boggles my mind.

There's nothing more disgusting than some horn-dog constantly humping your leg all the time like some farm animal. And then he pulls that crap when you're passed out. I don't know how you can LOOK at him without throwing up. I can't imagine what it must be like to just live for your genitals like he does. He's so utterly repulsive.

I say you jump on that divorce bandwagon while it's driving though town. I wouldn't need to be told twice.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

No,no, no...what he did was not okay at all, it was not acceptable in any way, no means no even in a marriage...if you have a spare room I would move your stuff there, and call his bluff...no women should ever be treated like that. I think it's time to move on.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I think you need help in many areas. I understand your feelings about your husband although I don't recall your other thread but he doesn't seem like a bad guy.

He is trying to be a good husband and he likes sex. Pretty normal actually.

Having a good time at a party, getting a little drunk and high and then coming to you for sex is pretty normal.

I like to give my wife an orgasm first but could have done something similar to what your husband did.

I do think he is being weak to not admit he took your pants off and had his way with you.

I grope and molest Mrs. C daily. I am hd and have a lot of sexual energy. She has learned it is ok, I love her dearly and I am sensitive to emotions and other issues in life besides sex.

There are a lot worse situations instead of having a husband that works hard at his marriage and is also horny.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I think you need help in many areas. I understand your feelings about your husband although I don't recall your other thread but he doesn't seem like a bad guy.
> 
> He is trying to be a good husband and he likes sex. Pretty normal actually.
> 
> ...



You are the man, the perfect foil to @She'sStillGotIt

SSGI is a feminist in, uh, some off-color. Not pink, methinks.

Yet, she has her useful days. Oh, yeah!

Not this day, this post.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> You are the man, the perfect foil to @She'sStillGotIt
> 
> SSGI is a feminist in, uh, some off-color. Not pink, methinks.
> 
> ...


She actually makes me laugh my ass off more times than not!:grin2:


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Maybe you guys are just not meant to be. When you resent your husband and feel like he kind of raped you maybe that is a sign. Look some people actually like wake up sex, and who know if you were emotionally close and you felt joy from your husband's desire to have sex with you then maybe you would feel the same. However it sounds like you really don't feel this way about him, too much water under the bridge. Seems you haven't been happy for a long time. It also seems he is not happy either. 

I honestly feel like the fact that he could do this just shows how disconnected you guys are emotionally. You sound like both of you have never been on the same page sexually, and you never have been able to communicate enough, and compromise enough to actually get there. That may be his fault to begin with, maybe if he was another man, or maybe you just don't really think sex is that important which is not going to work for most men. One things for sure no man should be begging his wife for sex, that is not going to work. Sometimes people are just not a good fit.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Marriage isn’t the right lifestyle for everyone. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

It is the SSGI's of the world who hate men. Want to neuter them.

A product of modern education, our tragic PC World.
The Western World.

Because of this, the Chinese will overtake us soon.
Many of our men have become wimps, made to wear skirts.

To please whom?

To please feminists.
So that the men bend at the waist, hoping they bend so far, they just vanish.

To please go away.





KB-


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> It is the SSGI's of the world who hate men. Want to neuter them.
> 
> A product of modern education, our tragic PC World.
> The Western World.
> ...


I don't think SSGI hates men. She hates *******s, I hate some of these husbands women write about as well, and I am a man.

There is a simple solution to the "So that the men bend at the waist, hoping they bend so far, they just vanish." mantra, Don't.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Find a new therapist.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Why on EARTH you haven't jumped all over the opportunity to scrape this pig off your grill just boggles my mind.
> 
> There's nothing more disgusting than some horn-dog constantly humping your leg all the time like some farm animal. And then he pulls that crap when you're passed out. I don't know how you can LOOK at him without throwing up. I can't imagine what it must be like to just live for your genitals like he does. He's so utterly repulsive.
> 
> I say you jump on that divorce bandwagon while it's driving though town. I wouldn't need to be told twice.


The guy is busting his ass to be the perfect husband and wants a little sex and you’re calling him a pig?
I don’t get it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

See, my hb doing something like that wouldn't bother me at all. Though it's not cool to lie about it. 

In fairness though I would have felt that way if my ex had done that because I resented him. 


The fact that it disgusts you is a really bad sign..... you have a lot of resentment. I'm not familiar with your backstory so maybe you have good reason. 

Since you're at this level of resentment you guys need a new therapist and you need one now. Resentment of this magnitude is hard to come back from.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I agree you just need to divorce. I would never want to have sex with drunk woman. I remember having two different girls during college that were really attractive wanting sex with me and they were drunk..... nope... 

But with this guy getting zero sex from his wife, and being so hard up he’ll do it with you passed out..... that’s sad on both your parts.
Him for doing it, you for cutting him off.

Just divorce. I really think that’s the only solution, although it will be painful for you both.

I don’t think a therapist can help you solve this. You don’t want to solve it. Just face that.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

PL, can you state why you want to stay married to him? What are you getting out of marriage that you feel makes you better of than not being married?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I don't think SSGI hates men. She hates *******s, I hate some of these husbands women write about as well, and I am a man.
> 
> There is a simple solution to the "So that the men bend at the waist, hoping they bend so far, they just vanish." mantra, Don't.


*I hate so very few. I hate those who have no soul, no empathy.* 
I hate few because I understand most.

These that are hate-able are not men or women, these beings have poisonous barbs, are the Thorns among the Roses.


Thorns belong, do not long for propriety. They do serve a purpose, not one in harmony with The Flock.
The Flock of kind, hungry sheep.

The thorns keep good folk away from The Rose. Make it an unpleasant event.
They do not allow the encounter to be 'Olfactory Bliss'.
....................................................................................

On your defense of SSGI:
This is good.

Let us see.
Let us see if she likes 'this'.

Your interpretation of she.

Likes your' defending her, likes your' response.

..................................................................

Don't?

You say don't, do not bend.

I do not bend, cannot bend.

Well, not so much, so often.

When wrong, one must remain silent.
Or, one must bend when called out.

If you lash, lash out, then you 'should'.
You should accept the lash in return, when your right is wrong.

The spoils of being right, is the lashing one gets for being wrong.
People notice. As they should.



King Brian-


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> PL, can you state why you want to stay married to him? What are you getting out of marriage that you feel makes you better of than not being married?


Kids. I don't want to put our kids through a divorce. Otherwise, I'd be gone.


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

Also, I question myself and how I feel. He tells me I am remembering things incorrectly from that night in particular. I really don't think I am, but he seems really sincere when he tells me his version..


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PatriciaLee said:


> Kids. I don't want to put our kids through a divorce. Otherwise, I'd be gone.


How old are your kids?


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

elegirl said:


> how old are your kids?


6 & 3


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PatriciaLee said:


> 6 & 3


There is a balance to consider. Your children are being harmed emotionally by witnessing the bad relationship between you and your husband. Often times, this is just as bad or worse than the harm that divorce would do to them.

Your children are learning from you that this is what a marriage is like. This is all that they will expect in their lives when they are adults. People tend to re-create the relationship that their parents had.. for one it's what they are familiar with and secondly, it's an attempt for them to try to fix what was wrong during their youth.

I get why you lost the emotional connection with your husband. I think that for most women, once the emotional connection is lost the idea of having sex with their husband is, well, a turn off.

One of the major problems in your relationship that I see from what you have written is that you are talking about your need for being respected and for having a strong emotional connection to your husband. He does not are about that. He does not respect you all that much, and he is focused on sex, that's all that matters to him, that he gets sex. Who two are taking, but you are actually having two different conversations.. you are talking about apples and he's talking about oranges. There is no way you can build a common ground.

If you want to try to fix the marriage, get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Read them and do the work that they suggest. Then, after you have done the work, you will be able to better talk to him in a language that he will understand. Sit him down and tell him what is wrong with your new found words and ask him to read the books with you and do the work together.

If he won't do that, then file for divorce because he's not willing to work to rebuild things on a common ground.

About that night of sex when you were nearly passed out. You need to tell him that you were conscious enough to know what he did but not enough to respond and tell him to stop. What has to be emphasized to him that is that you told him that from some point forward you would have sex only when you wanted it. That's your right. He took it away from you. This is not something that you should just forget. Anyone who is telling you that is wrong. Your husband knew that you did not want sex and did it anyway. Hence you cannot trust your husband with your well being at this time.

The author of the two books that I suggested says that when he counsels a couple whose marriage is in trouble, he does not spend any time with them going over all the past wrongs. His reason for this is that dwelling on the past accomplishes nothing. Instead he encourages couples to define their marriage going forward and make behavior changes accordingly... fake it until you make it. He says that when couples take this approach they get great results and a renewed marriage. And at that point all the past wrongs mean nothing. What matters is that the two people have learned from their mistakes and have grown/changed to improve their marriages and lives. When this happens, the love and passion that once existed returns and when property nourished can last a life-time.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

PatriciaLee said:


> Kids. I don't want to put our kids through a divorce. Otherwise, I'd be gone.


Then you two need to really work on learning to love each other. Your feelings can and will change as you choose to love on purpose.

Our hearts will follow our actions. You have chosen to stay so you might as well put the effort in to make it good.

You do not have to see eye to eye on everything with your husband or be a doormat but you do have to work more on loving him with actions and reducing your resentment.

He sounds like he is a good bet to work with so it doesn't seem a lost cause at all.


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Then you two need to really work on learning to love each other. Your feelings can and will change as you choose to love on purpose.
> 
> Our hearts will follow our actions. You have chosen to stay so you might as well put the effort in to make it good.
> 
> ...


How do I do this? It makes me ill to be physical at all. I don't even want to look at him. I hardly want to talk. Ive tried to focus on his positive aspects in the past and the whole "fake it till you make it" thing but it has gotten me nowhere. I wish I could leave the bad stuff in the past but I don't know how. 

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I left my ex when my kids were 5 and 2.

Best thing I ever did.

Are you sure it's really about the kids, or are they an excuse?

My parents stayed together "for the kids" and it was miserable for everyone.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Something to think about is that children are very observant. They usually model their future relationships based on what they see at home while they're growing up. 

I didn't divorce when I should have because of my child. I thought I could conceal the dysfunction of my marriage so that my child wouldn't be affected. I was wrong.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> When you resent your husband and* feel like he kind of raped you *maybe that is a sign.


I would advise everyone to read her original thread ... her H has done this before (anally) when they were awake and sober, she said "No" and he did it anyway.

It's a pattern.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

PatriciaLee said:


> How do I do this? It makes me ill to be physical at all. I don't even want to look at him. I hardly want to talk. Ive tried to focus on his positive aspects in the past and the whole "fake it till you make it" thing but it has gotten me nowhere. I wish I could leave the bad stuff in the past but I don't know how.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk


 @EleGirl gave you a couple of great resource ideas but you and your husband have to work on it. 

I personally wouldn't want a woman that didn't want me or to work on it with me to change her feelings.

I have been at points where I despised my wife and I guarantee she felt the same for me.

We have always known about the work principle in marriage however and pulled through those times.

You aren't the only one that would need serious work. Without your husband understanding he needed to grow with you, it is mostly a lost cause unless you possess high strength. Individuals who are remarkably strong can carry the marriage but it doesn't sound like either one of you is wired that way.

I'm not arguing that your feelings towards him aren't very real and valid. I'm saying that with will, determination and hard work from both of you, those feelings can and will change and develop.

It starts small with willful acts of love. Giving to your spouse for their benefit expecting nothing in return. He needs to learn this as well but he seems eager to act to improve your marriage so it probably won't be a problem for him.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> I would advise everyone to read her original thread ... her H has done this before (anally) when they were awake and sober, she said "No" and he did it anyway.
> 
> It's a pattern.


Ok. Drunken groping, half passed out sex is one thing between man and wife but that is another ballgame altogether.

A conscious wife saying no, to a very delicate sexual act under the best of circumstances and downright dangerous in the reluctant, is pretty damn serious and I think ol hubby needs tied down and given the old dildo probe to see how he likes it.

That pisses me off!

If his behavior has been not much improved, and I'm talking a 180 turn around, she needs to kick his ass to the curb and don't spare the boots 👢 ass she breaks her foot off in his rectum!


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I say you jump on that divorce bandwagon while it's driving though town. I wouldn't need to be told twice.


I'd venture to guess from the bitter taste in all of your posts, that you've already taken your own advice.




Lostinthought61 said:


> No,no, no...what he did was not okay at all, it was not acceptable in any way, no means no even in a marriage...if you have a spare room I would move your stuff there, and call his bluff...no women should ever be treated like that. I think it's time to move on.


She didn't say no.




PatriciaLee said:


> Also, I question myself and how I feel. He tells me I am remembering things incorrectly from that night in particular. I really don't think I am, but he seems really sincere when he tells me his version..


I don't drink, so I don't know how out of it what you took would make you. But from your post, you didn't hold back. So your memory could be faulty.




ConanHub said:


> I think you need help in many areas. I understand your feelings about your husband although I don't recall your other thread but he doesn't seem like a bad guy.
> 
> He is trying to be a good husband and he likes sex. Pretty normal actually.
> 
> ...


+1

To the OP, I don't really see your husband's actions as being that bad. The new age feminists will obviously disagree, but you're his wife. Meaning you willingly became his life-long sexual partner. And marrying someone is effectually giving them standing consent to have sex with you, and you didn't tell him to stop.

Him lying about you taking your clothes off isn't cool, but he did have alcohol and drugs in his system at the time. So his memory could have been blurry about what happened. Who knows.

So in answer to your question, yes, I think you should move past what happened that night. He didn't do anything wrong, other than lie about what happened (provided his memory about the events was intact).


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Red Sonja said:


> I would advise everyone to read her original thread ... her H has done this before (anally) when they were awake and sober, she said "No" and he did it anyway.
> 
> It's a pattern.


Oh God, run!


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

BioFury said:


> I'd venture to guess from the bitter taste in all of your posts, that you've already taken your own advice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

PatriciaLee2, if you don't like sex with your H (I read he did several things I would never do or insist on) then you can't expect him to stay in a sexless marriage. You get to decide what you will or won't do and he gets to decides what he will or won't do. 

People that have mismatched needs and wants get married all of the time because of some mind pictures, thinking how the marriage should or will be. Unfortunately that is not how things work out. What you have is 2 people that are not right for each other in a long term relationship.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Lostinthought61 said:


> She didn't say yes either...so is that your default answer...if there is no NO...then it means its an automatic yes...and what of her state of mind at the time? does that automatically give him permission?


Absolutely. No one forced her into a permanent sexual union with him. The default answer is always yes within marriage.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

BioFury said:


> Absolutely. She's married to him, they are one. The default answer is always yes within marriage.


OMG you believe that? how old are you? did you fall out of the 1890's; dear god man you seriously believe that her body is his to have when ever he wants it whether she wants it or not...you are one sick mother.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

BioFury said:


> Absolutely. No one forced her into a permanent sexual union with him. The default answer is always yes within marriage.


:surprise:


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Lostinthought61 said:


> OMG you believe that? how old are you? did you fall out of the 1890's; dear god man you seriously believe that her body is his to have when ever he wants it whether she wants it or not...you are one sick mother.


*sigh* I believe precisely what I said, which is not what you repeated above. The *default *answer in marriage should always be yes. I never said spouses don't have the right to say no. Geez.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Here's her old thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/334417-no-sexual-attraction.html


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

@PatriciaLee2

I would like to combine your two accounts into one with the name PatriciaLee.

We don't allow anyone two accounts on TAM, so I want to make sure that you have just one account. Once you acknowledge this post, I'll combine your accounts with your new email address of course.


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> @PatriciaLee
> 
> I would like to combine your two accounts into one with the name PatriciaLee.
> 
> We don't allow anyone two accounts on TAM, so I want to make sure that you have just one account. Once you acknowledge this post, I'll combine your accounts with your new email address of course.


Thanks! I appreciate it. My old login wasn't working.


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> There is a balance to consider. Your children are being harmed emotionally by witnessing the bad relationship between you and your husband. Often times, this is just as bad or worse than the harm that divorce would do to them.
> 
> Your children are learning from you that this is what a marriage is like. This is all that they will expect in their lives when they are adults. People tend to re-create the relationship that their parents had.. for one it's what they are familiar with and secondly, it's an attempt for them to try to fix what was wrong during their youth.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to offer some good resources and advice.

My husband seems more hung-up on how I interpret what happened that night. I don't want to talk about it. I told him how I feel that things happened, and how that has made me need a complete end to ANY physical contact right now. He keeps telling me that I remember it wrong. That we were making out for 3 or 4 minutes before that (I am really sure this did not happen, but he seems really convinced that it did). He says I am making him seem like a perverted sexual monster.

I've never accused him of rape. I didn't say that. I just told him how I remember things happening, and that I need some real help to figure out how to forgive him for it before I even think about addressing other things. I think the fact that we had VERY recently, like the day before, talked about how I didn't want to have sex unless it was on my terms, is what bothers me the most. I initiated NOTHING that night. My therapist says this has a lot to do with me trying to gain control in my life, and I agree. He yet again, took away what little control I have, and I'm really mad about it.

He keeps bringing this up, over and over. Telling me I am remembering it wrong. I really don't think I am though... I'm really confused. I journalled exactly what I remembered happening the next day, as soon as I had a chance, so that I wouldn't have fuzzy memories.

It's only been a week since this all happened, and he wants me to just get over it. I keep telling him that it's going to take serious time and that I can't keep talking about it day after day. It's making me feel worse. I ask him to just drop it, but it's still all we talk about, every moment he can bring it up. I ask him not to discuss it when the kids are around, and he does. Again, while I know he is upset, it's like he doesn't give a flying hell about my requests.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

> The next morning, he came out and asked me if I was "Ok with having sex last night. You climbed in bed and pulled your pants down and stuff.."(WHICH I ****ING DIDN'T!!)


This suggests to me he did something you would not have wanted him to, and he knows it — at least at some level. It sounds like he is struggling to allow full awareness of his actions in to his mind, as he doesn’t want to be “that guy”.

You can’t forgive him and move past this together, unless he admits the truth to you, and feels and shows real remorse. He can’t do that until he admits the truth to himself.

Perhaps you could throw him a lifeline, perhaps an overly generous one. If he makes use of it, and attempts to redeem himself, you can decide then whether the lifeline was worth it. If he doesn’t pull himself out of this with even your generous lifeline, you’ll know you tried, made a good faith effort, and he refused to try to climb up — and, your choices will be clearer and easier to weigh.

The lifeline I have in mind goes something like this...

“I know you know you did something you had no right to do. That’s why you were asking me how I felt about “it” — otherwise, why the concern? As bad as I find that behavior was, it’s conceivable I could forgive and move on — but you are not even admitting to yourself what happened, and you have zero awareness and empathy for what it is I’m feeling here. You are gaslighting me. You not only f’cked me without my consent (and lets be clear, I clearly conveyed to you I was through having sex unless I desired to) — but you are mind-****ing me now —PRESENT TENSE, by not owning up to what exactly you did, and it feels better to you to scoff at and dismiss how I feel about it.

“Look, you don’t have to be perfect. I see many good qualities. You’re good looking, successful, a good dad — you’d think I’d be all over you. But I can’t, because I can’t trust you to be honest with me. You’d rather mind-**** me about taking advantage of me, and that’s not the sort of behavior I can look away from. That kills any sort of connection. It’s happened not once, but two or three times. It’s where our sexual relationship began, and it’s no doubt why we are were we are now. If this marriage ends, it’s because you are not being truthful about all this NOW. Now is your last chance.

“Tell me now what happened the other night. Tell me what happened way back when. Tell me how it is you might imagine that all would leave me feeling. Let me hear myself in your words, instead of being erased by them. It’s the only chance we have.”


Just a thought.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

"(after 2 days without sex, he starts turning into an irritable ass)"

Yep! That is the problem with married guys, they actually EXPECT a loving wife who WANTS to have sex with them. And if there is no sex....they get more than just irritable.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PatriciaLee said:


> Thanks! I appreciate it. My old login wasn't working.


Your two accounts are not merged with the original user name: PatriciaLee


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Talker67 said:


> "(after 2 days without sex, he starts turning into an irritable ass)"
> 
> Yep! That is the problem with married guys, they actually EXPECT a loving wife who WANTS to have sex with them. And if there is no sex....they get more than just irritable.


Just as most women expect a loving husband who wants and enjoys sex with them. Men are a likely as women to withhold sex and to choose to make a marriage sexless. It's not just SOME women who do this; SOME men to too.


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Just as most women expect a loving husband who wants and enjoys sex with them. Men are a likely as women to withhold sex and to choose to make a marriage sexless. It's not just SOME women who do this; SOME men to too.


Can I also emphasize that this is the first time in 14 years I've ever "withheld" sex? I truly understand the importance of sex. While it may not be as important to me, I know it is to him, and I've always gone out of my way to try to make him feel fulfilled in that department. Apart from when I had my kids and couldn't have sex during recovery, he's rarely gone more than 3-4 days between getting sex.

Not only that, but I've been open to trying all sorts of things that I'm not interested in, but he is. Because I care about him and want him to be happy too.

Over the years, it's been a (losing) battle to even get him to eat different foods. I need to beg for a backrub. It took me emotionally breaking down before he even thought to start helping me with the kids a bit (I was severely sleep deprived after my second child was born).

That being said, since my last emotional meltdown, two years ago, he's stepped up more. He helps with the kids, he's more patient with them, it's less of an issue if I want to buy myself something, he's trying more foods so I am not stuck cooking the same thing over and over.

Still, the sex is the issue, hence why I started seeing the therapist. I wish I could just let go of what happened in so many aspects of our relationship, let alone the "Friday night" incident, but I don't know how. He keeps trying to convince me that things happened differently, that's all he is focused on, and it's really messing with my head. I feel so sure that I know how things happened, but he seems like he feels the same way about his side of the story...


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

PieceOfSky said:


> This suggests to me he did something you would not have wanted him to, and he knows it — at least at some level. It sounds like he is struggling to allow full awareness of his actions in to his mind, as he doesn’t want to be “that guy”.
> 
> You can’t forgive him and move past this together, unless he admits the truth to you, and feels and shows real remorse. He can’t do that until he admits the truth to himself.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your idea. I may use it.. I doubt he'll change his stance, but I can at least try.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

*Could we please get real here... please...*

Could we please get real here... please...

What your husband did is totally wrong in every way, and there is no excuse for it ever. 

But, I think that YOU need to admit that even before this incident, and there may be no coming back from the Friday Night Incident, you had lost sexual attraction to your husband. Bottom line. Barring any physiological problems with your body chemistry, this is what has happened. 

And it is just better to admit that it has happened and move on. Somehow, whatever happened with your (I Hope) previous sexual attraction for your husband, well it is just gone. THAT IS WHY YOU DONT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH HIM. 

Either he started taking you for granted, or he was insensitive one too many times and never make up for it, or he got fat, or whatever. It happened. 

Now what would have been the right thing to do before the Friday night incident would have been for you to file for divorce and move on, but you did not. You liked being married, you liked being a mom, and you liked the financial comfort of being married, unfortunately you just really did not like your husband. 

And I bet for a while, sex with him was a chore, and he is probably not really good in bed in the first place. 

So, like a lot of weak men, he stayed with you and bugged you for sex, which always make an unattractive man less attractive to his wife. 

The right thing for him to do would have been grow a pair of balls and divorce you and find a woman that actually finds him attractive and he could have his sexual needs met. 

Except for the Friday Night Incident, I don't really know which one of you is worse in this deal. Him for not realizing that you have no desire for him, and divorcing you and finding someone who does desire him and want to have sex with him. Or you for loosing your attraction to him and divorcing him because you don't find him attractive. 

I will bet that if some hunk that was your type took you to bed and banged your brains out, you would just be fine with sex again. 

So yeah, he is a total creep for doing that in the first place, but worse he is a puss for staying with you and getting any little bit of duty sex that you were willing to give him. 

It would just be better for you guys to call it quits.

BTW, my GF loves to be woken up at night when I wake up horny. She prefers it if I move her gently into position, without waking her up, start getting busy, and then she can wake up and already be having sex and on her way to her first O of the encounter. 

It is a little weird for me, but at the same time, it really is about her needs so she get what she wants...


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

*Re: Could we please get real here... please...*



BluesPower said:


> Could we please get real here... please...
> 
> What your husband did is totally wrong in every way, and there is no excuse for it ever.
> 
> ...


Huh? 

Oh, and what if it IS just due to the fact that for whatever physiological reason, she just isn't into wanting sex anymore?
And if he's changing his ways and doing all these things, I assure you it's not because he wants some *****. I can tell you from experience that ***** is easy to find. It's getting it from his wife that he loves that is important. Random sex isn't what I think most men want. They want to have sex with the woman they love. The OP's husband shouldn't be downgraded as a man just because he wants sex with his wife. I'll bet if she told him he could screw around, he'd tell her he didn't want to do that at all. If he does, divorce him because he sucks as a husband.

OP, the guy wanted some sex badly. He wronged you. I think he'd tell you he is really sorry if you gave him the opportunity and didn't freak out. If you think he's such a bad guy as he would violate you without your consent, then the answer is simple. Divorce him. He's an *******. If you think there were mitigating circumstances, then let it go. Simple.
If he kept on with anal after you told him to stop and that it was hurting you, he's worse than an a-hole. You should have quit him then, if that's true.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

PatriciaLee said:


> Kids. I don't want to put our kids through a divorce. Otherwise, I'd be gone.


It seems like that's not totally it. If that committed to the opinion your H is a super terrible person, you'd have left. I don't agree with what you described happened but there's more to this story.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

*Re: Could we please get real here... please...*



Evinrude58 said:


> Huh?
> 
> Oh, and what if it IS just due to the fact that for whatever physiological reason, she just isn't into wanting sex anymore?
> And if he's changing his ways and doing all these things, I assure you it's not because he wants some *****. I can tell you from experience that ***** is easy to find. It's getting it from his wife that he loves that is important. Random sex isn't what I think most men want. They want to have sex with the woman they love. The OP's husband shouldn't be downgraded as a man just because he wants sex with his wife. I'll bet if she told him he could screw around, he'd tell her he didn't want to do that at all. If he does, divorce him because he sucks as a husband.
> ...


While I don't completely understand where you are coming from, I do want to ask you some questions. 

Now as I understand it, as far as she knows, she does not have and hormone problems that she is aware of. So, if she does not want sex with her husband, why is that? 

I assure you that she does NOT WANT SEX because she is hugely attracted to him and she thinks he is hot! I think it is quite the opposite, she is not attracted to him, so she does not want sex with him. 

So in that case would it not be more humane and honest of her to divorce her husband? Do you think it is the right thing to do to string him along until he just stops asking for sex so she can go off into no-sex-land and live happily ever after? 

Is that fair to her husband? Is that even fair to her? I say no. 

As far as her husband, what he did was wrong. There is no middle ground here, it WAS WRONG. Should she be so freaked out especially understanding the fact that she has been giving him nothing but duty sex for who knows how long? 

That point may be debatable, but I assure you, what he did -- did not make her want more sex with him. And doing something like that, no matter how drunk is WAY out of line. 

So for him, do you describe a man that mopes around acting like a ***** begging his wife for sex is a strong man? I say the opposite is true, he is a weak man. If you are that way, then I am sorry that it hurts, but I would describe you as a week man as well. 

Further, does a strong man accept duty sex as some type of "married consolation prize"? Because it would make me puke. 

What man has sex with a woman that does not desire him? I guess men that use prostitutes and other weak and unattractive men. But not me. 

If I was ever in my life with a woman, and I got an inkling that she was giving me duty sex I would kick her out of my bed. 

And your right, sex is easy to get, but I guess for some guys sex with a woman that wants you to have sex with them is hard to get? I don't know, I have never experience that before and I hope I don't. 

But I will stand by this, any man that stays with a woman that does not desire him and if they have sex at all, it is some lame duty sex, I am sorry in my book that is a week man. 

I never have, and never will be with a woman in that type of situation. 

And I stand by this, both of them need to step up an get real. She needs to admit she does not find him attractive and she needs to move to divorce. And He needs to understand that the reason he is not getting laid is the she is not attracted to him, so be a man and move on. 

Would not that be the best case for all involved in this situation? I mean who wants to live like that?


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## TheBohannons (Apr 6, 2018)

If you don't want to have sex with your husband, woman up and divorce him. He is not your beast of burden.

You are part of the problem in this marriage. You dont love him as a man and never did. Stop torturing him, blaming him for everything and allow this man to find someone else. Someone who loves and appreciates his efforts and (gasp!) desires him as a man. Friday night? Correct me if i am wrong. You were not sleeping. You were aware and allowed it to happen. Why didn't you stop it? It was your right. It is not your right to allow sex to happen, and decide to beat him over the head with it the next day.

Sex is your weapon and you weild it with force. 

Horrible marriage. Divorce and try to coparent as peacefully as possible.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

The way you explained it sounds like rape to me!

What kind of person would have sex with somone passed out?

This marriage is not worth saving.

Get your ducks lined up and divorce.

Thats my opinion for what its worth.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

(gingerly) is there a chance you were awake enough, but took the opportunity to not say anything in order to trash him the next morning, having an iron clad story? I only ask, because SOs, either "side", tragically have seized opportunities to do so. There's likely something deeper going on, in both "sides" here. I'm not agreeing it's ok for sex against someone's will, male or female. Many opinions in this thread, many have good points.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> It is the SSGI's of the world who hate men. Want to neuter them.
> 
> A product of modern education, our tragic PC World.
> The Western World.
> ...


I actually just can't stand men who think women were put here *solely *to please them, cater to their sexual desires 24/7, and who have no problem laying on their asses while their wives work their butts off around them from sunrise to 11 pm every night until the day they die. The type of man who is too damned selfish to do his share and whose too selfish to take any responsibility for contraception and continually burdens the female with it - to the point where she's risking all kinds of dangers to her health year after year after year. The only 'danger' to a man's health by actually contributing and using a condom is an allergy to latex. BFD.

This is the type of **** that drives me crazy.

I've just seen it my whole life and I see it every day here on TAM.

And lastly, I'm not one of those sad little snowflakes donning an embarrassing pink "P" hat and making a fool of myself marching all over the place for women's rights. When I see those idiotic hats on those women, I'm downright embarrassed for my gender. It just looks like yet another way for the whiners to throw a tantrum because their pantsuit wearing hero wasn't voted into office. 

So, it's not so much that I'm a feminist. I'm just a woman sick and tired of men using the 'equal rights' argument every time it benefits THEM like going Dutch on dates or wanting their wives to work full time - but then suddenly playing the 'gender tradition' card when it comes to lifting their lazy asses off the couch at home.

You can't suck and blow at the same time.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Marriage isn’t the right lifestyle for everyone.


Isn't this the truth.

It would make it much easier for those that find marriage to be the 'right' lifestyle.
The 'right' lifestyle for them.

The others discovering that this is not for them, would then not feel 'left' out.

And also learning that no lifestyle is totally fulfilling. Life can be hard.





KB-


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I actually just can't stand men who think women were put here *solely *to please them, cater to their sexual desires 24/7, and who have no problem laying on their asses while their wives work their butts off around them from sunrise to 11 pm every night until the day they die. The type of man who is too damned selfish to do his share and whose too selfish to take any responsibility for contraception and continually burdens the female with it - to the point where she's risking all kinds of dangers to her health year after year after year. The only 'danger' to a man's health by actually contributing and using a condom is an allergy to latex. BFD.
> 
> This is the type of **** that drives me crazy.
> 
> ...



Oh, Dear, yes Dear,

Your star just rose, flowered in Outer/Inner Space.

I won't bend at the waist to show you my contrition.
Once down, me bent over.. 
I would find it hard to right myself in this wrong way condition.


Bent over, my face gets red from my blood heading south.
The shame and the error of my ways adding to the rose tint
My chagrin, the same shame draws tight my pride-bound mouth.

Luckily, my fingers prance on, not typing, displaying a mope. 
Tapping on the keyboard.
Dancing, lightly away, doing the rope-a-dope.

The Host-

..................................................................................................

I was told that SunCMars liked you.
Therefore, I should abhor you.

A quandary not. Women should stand up to men. Not stand over them.



I cannot do that. 


It is not possible.
It is not permitted. 

I stand over all men.

I AM The Red Queen-


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

She stayed after the first time. Her choice. She stays still. She’s not a victim, she’s a volunteer. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Lostinthought61 said:


> BioFury said:
> 
> 
> > She didn't say no.
> ...


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Fixed this for you:



She'sStillGotIt said:


> I actually just can't stand _*women*_ who think _*men*_ were put here *solely *to please them, cater to their _*needs*_ 24/7, _*come home exhausted*_ and who have no problem _*sitting their ass on the sofa eating bon-bons*_ while their _*husbands*_ work their butts off from sunrise to 11 pm every night until the day they die. The type of _*woman*_ who is too damned selfish to do _*her*_ share and who is too selfish to take any responsibility for contraception and continually burdens the _*male with wearing condoms*_ - to the point where _*he's*_ risking _*his health year after year only to live on average 5 years shorter than the lazy ass woman he married and wind up in an early grave*_. BFD.
> 
> This is the type of **** that drives me crazy.


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

As to this: 




She'sStillGotIt said:


> I've just seen it my whole life and I see it every day here on TAM.
> 
> And lastly, I'm not one of those sad little snowflakes donning an embarrassing pink "P" hat and making a fool of myself marching all over the place for women's rights. When I see those idiotic hats on those women, I'm downright embarrassed for my gender. It just looks like yet another way for the whiners to throw a tantrum because their pantsuit wearing hero wasn't voted into office.
> 
> ...












Sounds like you are just a hater; men, women, children...all immaterial.

You go girl!!!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

As for the OP, you've been dishonest with your H for years now.

Time for some hardcore honesty; whether it hurts him or not.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

PatriciaLee said:


> I later brought it up to him and he was remorseful. Said he thought I was ok until he was done and then freaked out because he thought I was passed out. Then he got mad and told me not to tell the therapist.


The fact that he asked you not to tell the therapist is proof that he knows he did something wrong.



Bananapeel said:


> The problem for her is partially that he violated her expressed opinion on what his access to her body should be, which was 100% wrong on his part. However, she wasn't 100% blame free either because she was faking being asleep and knew what was going on, so she had an obligation to say "no" if she didn't want to participate and was able to communicate that. Neither of them was being honest with each other (her faking being asleep and him pretending it was consensual), which is something that both partners in a relationship are obligated to.


That is so wrong. The onus is on HIM to make sure he has consent. She did not provide that, in any way, shape or form.

If he'd have sex with someone he believes is passed out, the problem is with HIM, not with the person who was pretending to be passed out.

Pretending to be asleep is probably a classic way of demonstrating NON-consent, because being genuinely asleep or passed out is non-consent.

And on top of everything, she had previously clearly stated that the next time they had sex, it would be on her terms. Obviously this was not the case, faking or not.

PatriciaLee, I am glad you are in therapy, because you need to work through this with a professional. It is certainly a HUGE setback to a marriage to be unable to trust your spouse.

And is he in therapy too? It's just as big a setback to a marriage to be a rapist. Is part of his remorse a resolution to stop drinking? If it isn't, I would question his sincerity.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

@Hopeful Cynic - You are advocating for affirmative consent here, probably due to an ideology about sexual victimization of women. I am advocating for individual responsibility due to an ideology about sexual equality, and the responsibility of partners to learn to communicate in marriage. These are not mutually exclusive, which is why this isn't a one sided problem. I agree that he had the responsibility to make sure she consented, but saying she has no responsibility to communicate her desires WHEN SHE WAS ABLE TO was a poor choice on her part. They both should figure out how they should do things in a mutually agreeable way.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Bananapeel said:


> @Hopeful Cynic - You are advocating for affirmative consent here, probably due to an ideology about sexual victimization of women. I am advocating for individual responsibility due to an ideology about sexual equality, and the responsibility of partners to learn to communicate in marriage. These are not mutually exclusive, which is why this isn't a one sided problem. I agree that he had the responsibility to make sure she consented, but saying she has no responsibility to communicate her desires WHEN SHE WAS ABLE TO was a poor choice on her part. They both should figure out how they should do things in a mutually agreeable way.


She DID communicate her desires by being unresponsive.

I don't know what you mean by the ideology of sexual victimization, but what's wrong with affirmative consent? We need to educate people so we can get to the point that the absence of a 'yes' is considered a 'no.'

Do you want tea? Silence should be the cue to not bring tea or force them to drink it.

Do you want to sell our house and move to Tahiti? Silence should not be a cue to sell all the assets and make travel arrangements.

Do you want me to shoot you in the head? Silence should not be a cue to load the gun and fire it.

A lot of people, when being sexually assaulted, freeze up. It's a common panic response. And also a survival mechanism - it will hurt less in the end to submit than it would to fight. Women's bodies even lubricate during sexual assault as a form of physical injury prevention - but it's certainly not a sign of desire.

Nonresponsiveness cannot be construed as consent.

They both need therapy. If he isn't willing to do learn why he behaved this way, and to cut down his alcohol use so he never repeats this behavior, they will never build a good marriage.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I don't believe the rules of affirmative consent should apply the same for a married couple. It's part of joining your lives together that you learn to work things out in a way that both people are happy with rather than giving full authority to one person. If either partner has full authority to dictate the sexual rules in the marriage while limiting the other partner from getting their needs met elsewhere, then they are causing a power imbalance and that often progresses to resentment. Either they learn to work together or they don't and if the choose the latter then the relationship will end up falling apart.


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

musicftw07 said:


> ^^^^ This. This is my guess as to why you stay. You enjoy the power, you enjoy being in control, you enjoy emasculating your H.
> 
> If the right OM came along, I think the odds are high you'd cheat on him.
> 
> ...


Wow. Pretty presumptive. I don't enjoy the "power" or emasculating my husband. I am not that kind of person. I'm here looking for advice. I felt utterly lost. I love hoe so many members here project their attitudes and experiences on every situation posted here...


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> The fact that he asked you not to tell the therapist is proof that he knows he did something wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for your support. He is not in therapy yet, but is open to it. I'm waiting to see the therapist on my own a few more times before I add him into the mix.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

PatriciaLee said:


> Wow. Pretty presumptive. I don't enjoy the "power" or emasculating my husband. I am not that kind of person. I'm here looking for advice. I felt utterly lost. I love hoe so many members here project their attitudes and experiences on every situation posted here...


OK. FTR you have unilaterally shut down the sex in your M. Now I don't think that whether you "enjoy the power" is really material to the discussion much.

What you have right now with your H is a bad marriage with little hope of getting better in the near term. You don't really love him and you seem unwilling to fake it til you make it. And BTW, I am not judging you.

Why don't you tell us what you think your options are and which one(s) you are leaning towards and we will give you our opinions, pros and cons.


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> If you want to try to fix the marriage, get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Read them and do the work that they suggest. Then, after you have done the work, you will be able to better talk to him in a language that he will understand. Sit him down and tell him what is wrong with your new found words and ask him to read the books with you and do the work together.


I've read "Love Busters" and he is currently reading it. He says it has been eye-opening. He's been expressing his remorse as to how he's treated me in the past. How the book has opened his eyes as to what is important to women.

I read the book and see where I have gone wrong. I am definitely a Giver, and was very content with being a Giver (without receiving much back) for nearly 10 years before things started to go bad. I didn't realize that focusing only on his needs was going to lead us where we are now.

We haven't had sex since the "incident" and I've told him that I don't want any physical contact with him.. which he mostly respects, but still tries to be affectionate sometimes.

I want to be able to feel affection towards him, but I don't know how I'm going to get there.


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

Tron said:


> OK. FTR you have unilaterally shut down the sex in your M. Now I don't think that whether you "enjoy the power" is really material to the discussion much.
> 
> What you have right now with your H is a bad marriage with little hope of getting better in the near term. You don't really love him and you seem unwilling to fake it til you make it. And BTW, I am not judging you.
> 
> Why don't you tell us what you think your options are and which one(s) you are leaning towards and we will give you our opinions, pros and cons.


Jesus Christ. I've been "faking it to make it" for YEARS now. Forgive me for needing a break from having sex when I DON'T WANT TO. 

14 ****ing years he has gone without ever once being deprived sexually. 

Having sex with him at this point is not going to make matters any better.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Okay...

I am feeling confused because I think I may have completely misread the OP's first thread and her first post on this one.

Tell me if I am wrong.

There were issues that caused PL to have basically no libido. To the point that she actually began taking medication for it. In the meantime, she did not refuse her husband even WHEN she had no libido. At least once in her first thread he essentially raped her.

She stopped taking the medication because it made her a zombie. But she still had sex with her husband. I will assume a few times a week, as her "two days later he is an ass" statement implies that they only go a few days without sex again. So she IS having sex with him.

There's a gathering with friends, and she is intoxicated enough to have the deadweight feeling - which btw would make it date rape in any other situation. Her hubby moves her around while she is unresponsive, undresses her, and relieves himself. The fact that he tiptoed around it the next morning and lied tells anyone capable of objectivity he KNEW it was wrong.

Since then, the woman who had sex with her hubby for years even with no libido doesn't want him touch her.

And SHE is the bad guy???

Hey, I have a HIGH drive. I'd like sex every morning and night. And I lived in a REAL sexless marriage - like months and years without. Not this whiny "boohoo I had to wait 3 days" crap. I have almost zero sympathy for anyone (especially women) who withholds from their spouse.

But the intentional blindness one must have to conclude SHE is the problem....

That's why I am asking, am I reading an alternate thread in an alternate universe????

OP, you are one of the few LD spouses I have ever felt sympathy for, and my heart aches for you.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

PatriciaLee said:


> *He says I am making him seem like a perverted sexual monster.
> *
> I think the fact that we had VERY recently, like the day before, talked about how I didn't want to have sex unless it was on my terms, is what bothers me the most. I initiated NOTHING that night. My therapist says this has a lot to do with me trying to gain control in my life, and I agree. *He yet again, took away what little control I have, and I'm really mad about it.*
> 
> ...


1. He knew that you didn't want to have sex unless YOU WANTED TO since the two of you had already talked about it.

2. His constant pestering and trying to convince you that you were awake, prove that he is a controller. He not only controls your body, but he wants to control your mind. He is gaslighting you.

3. He knew you didn't want to have sex, and did it anyway, while you pretended to be asleep. He is trying to rewrite what happened as well as convince you of it so you don't realize that he is a monster.

You never accused him of rape, or called him a monster, yet *he calls himself a monster.* It is because he knows what he did, and he knows he is covering it, he thinks he is a monster.

He wasn't drunk that night because of his 100K ride the next day. You were drunk. If he had also been drunk, he might have an excuse for what he did. If having drunken sex was part of your normal relationship, and if you knew he sometimes had sex with you while you were passed out and you were OK with it later, I'd not blame him for doing it the other night.

I used to take a sleeping med that caused me to not remember things I did while under the influence of the med. I acted awake, and participated in sex, and then wouldn't remember it the next day. I would even orgasm. We both thought it was funny when I had no recollection of having sex. it didn't upset me because, because I wasn't sound asleep when the sex happened, I just couldn't remember it the next day.

I do believe that rape can occur in marriage, and that is what I think happened to you. You had already made it clear that you never wanted to have sex with him again unless you wanted to at the time. You pretended to be asleep, you did not make any moves of your own to indicate you wanted to have sex with him. He had to remove your pants by himself, had a quickie, cleaned you up and even put your pants back on with you being "dead weight" and not helping him out. How can he think you would believe for a second that he actually thought you were an active participant in all that?


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Okay...
> 
> I am feeling confused because I think I may have completely misread the OP's first thread and her first post on this one.
> 
> ...


She is definitely not the only problem here. Her H has his own share of responsibilities in that regard. But again, he's not posting here.

1) For 14 years she chose to have begrudging sex with her H. That was her choice. 

2) After all that resentment built up, now she's making a unilateral choice for both parties.

3) She chooses to stay in this massively unhealthy dynamic. Why?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if her H would post here too. I guarantee his satchel of misdeeds is overflowing as well. (I wouldn't call what he did "rape" since she did not say no, but neither do I think it was a cool move and is not something I would ever do.) But he's not here. We can only look at the decisions she's making in context.

I have to question her statement of "wanting to fix things" when her decisions only further the divide between them. The action doesn't support the rhetoric. 

And my question still stands. Why stay? What's in it for her? She can't stand the guy, doesn't want him to touch her, has resented him for years. There is no love here.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

PatriciaLee said:


> Jesus Christ. I've been "faking it to make it" for YEARS now. Forgive me for needing a break from having sex when I DON'T WANT TO.
> 
> 14 ****ing years he has gone without ever once being deprived sexually.
> 
> Having sex with him at this point is not going to make matters any better.


PL, I understand where you are coming from. You are not being unreasonable.

You haven't told your husband you never want to have sex with him ever again.

You told him that you only want to have sex with him when YOU want to, not just when HE wants to. For years you had sex when he wanted to, even if you didn't want to. You tried taking meds to change yourself to fit him. Those meds made you feel like a zombie, so you quit taking it. There is more to life than just sex. You want to experience all of life, and not make yourself a zombie just so you will have sex with your husband.

You have told him what you need to want to be intimate with him again (treat you right in other ways, respect your mind, respect you as a person with your own desires and wishes.)

I don't believe you are expecting perfection, and probably, because you are a giver, you will desire him fairly quickly when you see he is actually making only a little progress.

People, OP and her husband love each other. If her husband realizes he needs to treat her as an equal rather than having everything go his way, their sex life will resume and their marital life will improve.

Regarding your physical issues (low desire even when things are going well in your marriage), have you tried herbal remedies? *Steele Libido, by Irving Naturals* increases my libido, and has ZERO negative side affects. It is not like Viagra, and is not instant but I do notice a difference within a day of taking them. They can be taken daily to nourish the sexual organs and increase the libido in general.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

musicftw07 said:


> She is definitely not the only problem here. Her H has his own share of responsibilities in that regard. But again, he's not posting here.
> 
> 1) For 14 years she chose to have begrudging sex with her H. That was her choice.
> 
> ...


Most people here are viewing her through the lens of their own sexless or so-called sexless lens. I get it. I do that a LOT, weven though I am now happily married.

But it's not really very helpful or very....intellectual.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Angelwanderer said:


> You were aware of what was happening. You could've spoken. You could've moved away. The responsibility to alter the outcome was as much yours as it was his.
> 
> And I'm not buying self-induced inebriation removed all ability to respond in some way -


Nope. She is not to blame at all for his choice to violate her wishes while he thought she was passed out.

Your premise is as absurd as blaming the police for the crime a criminal commits during a stake out.

They could stop the criminal from committing the crime at any point before the crime happens. Since they don't stop the crime they are equally to blame?

Nope. The criminal is charged of the crime they committed during the stake out.

Bottom line is OP didn't want to have sex with her husband, was amazed he was violating her wishes, yet she kept pretending to be passed out just to see if he would really go through with it. She is not to blame AT ALL.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> > She is definitely not the only problem here. Her H has his own share of responsibilities in that regard. But again, he's not posting here.
> ...


Begrudging sex is worse than no sex. (Here's where her H needs a 2x4 of his own.)

Did OP actually state that she was conditioned as you say? I don't recall that, but I may have missed it.

It's not that she can't win. It's that one bad decision is being compounded with another. She has gone from one extreme to the other: always giving begrudging sex which built resentment to now cutting it all off unilaterally. The thing is, those weren't the only two options available to her. Saying "she can't win" implies that they are, which I think we all would agree is fundamentally false.

When your teacher groped you, my guess is you were underage. This is marriage with two adults where consent is implied. While I am terribly sorry you had to endure that, the two circumstances are not equivalent. (Yours was far, far worse.)

You may suggest that she stayed out of love, but the way she describes her H doesn't bear that out. She has no kind words for him. She has no respect for him. She has no desire for him. As a man, I see no love in there at all.

I think we need to hear it from her: Why does she stay with this man she can barely tolerate? Because that is a choice that she continues to make over and over, and at some point she needs to **** or get off the pot. She has agency.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> This suggests to me he did something you would not have wanted him to, and he knows it — at least at some level. It sounds like he is struggling to allow full awareness of his actions in to his mind, as he doesn’t want to be “that guy”.
> 
> You can’t forgive him and move past this together, unless he admits the truth to you, and feels and shows real remorse. He can’t do that until he admits the truth to himself.
> 
> ...


Excellent quote. Honesty, vulnerabiltiy, mercy, accountability.

All she wants is for him to be honest with her.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

*@PatriciaLee, you keep going round and round...*

@PatriciaLee, you keep going round and round...

Listen, this situation is really super simple and you just refuse to acknowledge it, and I know that it is hard. 

So the "Friday incident", let's get that out of the way. You were not so drunk that you could not have said no. Would you please get over that crap. 

If you feel like you were really a victim of "Marital Rape"... Then start divorce proceedings on Monday morning. Honest to god it is THAT SIMPLE. 

And frankly I don't know why you would not...YOU HAVE NOT BEEN SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO YOUR HUSBAND FOR 14 YEARS, GOOD GOD WOMAN 14 YEARS. 

Your husband has been putting up with duty sex for 14 years. I bet if you actually told him that you have never really been sexually attracted to him for 14 years, if he has even 1 ball, he would start divorce proceedings himself. 

Why have you stayed in a marriage like this for 14 years, with no sexual attraction, and please be honest, YOU DO NOT, AND MAYBE NEVER HAVE, LOVE YOUR HUSBAND. YOU JUST DON'T. 

He is married to you and he wants to have sex with you. You don't love him and you don't want to have sex with him. Why are you still in the marriage. 

Please just release this man and start a new life with someone else already...


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> @PatriciaLee, you keep going round and round...
> 
> Listen, this situation is really super simple and you just refuse to acknowledge it, and I know that it is hard.
> 
> ...


THIS. If you feel that you are honest to God raped, then why aren't you divorcing this man? Hell, why aren't you filing a police report and putting his ass in jail for that matter?



> And frankly I don't know why you would not...YOU HAVE NOT BEEN SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO YOUR HUSBAND FOR 14 YEARS, GOOD GOD WOMAN 14 YEARS.
> 
> Your husband has been putting up with duty sex for 14 years. I bet if you actually told him that you have never really been sexually attracted to him for 14 years, if he has even 1 ball, he would start divorce proceedings himself.


I think it remains to be seen if he has any testicles of his own, but yes. I agree.



> Why have you stayed in a marriage like this for 14 years, with no sexual attraction, and please be honest, YOU DO NOT, AND MAYBE NEVER HAVE, LOVE YOUR HUSBAND. YOU JUST DON'T.


Bingo. I don't think she's ever loved him. I think he's a utility, an ATM, a means to a more comfortable life. But I don't get the impression she's ever considered him to be a lover, a partner, a spouse. There is nothing kind or loving in the way she describes him.

Seriously, 14 years of duty sex. That fact alone screams that she's in this marriage for reasons other than love.

What I'd like to know is, what are they?



> He is married to you and he wants to have sex with you. You don't love him and you don't want to have sex with him. Why are you still in the marriage.
> 
> Please just release this man and start a new life with someone else already...


Yup. It's time to put a fork in this marriage and call it done.

God, 14 years of duty sex. What a waste.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

So what DO you do if you love your spouse but don't have a sex drive? I mean I HATE pizza, but I still make it for my husband because I love him. Is duty pizza wrong?


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> So what DO you do if you love your spouse but don't have a sex drive? I mean I HATE pizza, but I still make it for my husband because I love him. Is duty pizza wrong?


To equate pizza to sex between a husband and wife is quite literally the most ludicrous thing I have ever seen on this forum. 

Do I really need to spell out how your analogy so obviously doesn't work?

And would you be satisfied with your husband giving you duty sex? For 14 years, nonetheless?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

musicftw07 said:


> To equate pizza to sex between a husband and wife is quite literally the most ludicrous thing I have ever seen on this forum.
> 
> Do I really need to spell out how your analogy so obviously doesn't work?
> 
> And would you be satisfied with your husband giving you duty sex? For 14 years, nonetheless?


So, answer the question. What DOES a spouse do who loves his or her spouse but does not have much of a sex drive? I mean people are accusing her of not loving him. What would loving him look like?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> So what DO you do if you love your spouse but don't have a sex drive? I mean I HATE pizza, but I still make it for my husband because I love him. Is duty pizza wrong?


Yes, IT IS. Any man that actually puts up with it is a puss, unless he is too stupid to know what is going on. 

BTW, in case you did not know it folks, men actually like to be desired by their partner. 

I mean, having sex with a woman that did not desire me, I think it would make me puke. How any man can do that is a complete and total mystery to me. 

YUCK...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> So, answer the question. What DOES a spouse do who loves his or her spouse but does not have much of a sex drive? I mean people are accusing her of not loving him. What would loving him look like?


It would look like she wanted to actually have sex with him. 

Why is this concept hard to understand for some women. When you had a sex drive, did you want your husband to desire you. Did you want to be wanted?

Or, did you never have a sex drive?


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> > To equate pizza to sex between a husband and wife is quite literally the most ludicrous thing I have ever seen on this forum.
> ...


I can tell you what it doesn't look like.

It doesn't look like having nothing kind to say about their spouse.

It doesn't look like making unilateral decisions for the couple as a whole without any input from their spouse.

It doesn't look like not even wanting your spouse to touch you.

It doesn't look like 14 years of duty sex.

Again, she gives me no indication though her words and actions that she actually loves this man. She said "He's really stepped up lately, but it doesn't mean anything to me."

I see a man who is trying (albeit fumbling), and a woman who is so detached that nothing he could do would ever make a lick of difference.

Why should he settle for that. Would YOU?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> It would look like she wanted to actually have sex with him.
> 
> Why is this concept hard to understand for some women. *When you had a sex drive*, did you want your husband to desire you. Did you want to be wanted?
> 
> Or, did you never have a sex drive?


I am not the OP. Was the bolded intentional? I totally get wanting to be desired. That's a no brainer. I get a person not wanting to settle for duty sex. I get a person leaving over it. What I don't get is whatever poster calling the OP unloving, having never loved, having done the best she could for 14 years? There is likely a lot both of them could have done over the years for the feelings to not get this bad at this point. But in what way is her having sex with her husband unloving?


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Yes, IT IS. Any man that actually puts up with it is a puss, unless he is too stupid to know what is going on.
> 
> BTW, in case you did not know it folks, men actually like to be desired by their partner.
> 
> ...


Did it once with a LTR girl....She did the plank and turn the head thing while I was on top.....Never again! Felt so cheap and gross. Found me a girl that chased me around the bedroom! Attraction is so worth it! Duty sex? Pleeeeease!


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> BluesPower said:
> 
> 
> > It would look like she wanted to actually have sex with him.
> ...


These are good questions.

I absolutely agree that there is a lot both of them could have done, her H included. But all we have to go by is her side of story.

What I don't fathom is how a person can say they love another while admitting that all the sex they gave for 14 years was duty sex. That doesn't jive in my head. So, IMO, her motives for doing so are suspect.

The reason I say she doesn't love her H is because of the way she talks about him. Not one kind word. Unilateral decisions. She says she has no connection with him. How can you love someone with whom you freely admit you have no connection and by whom you don't want to be touched?

She wants a roommate. Okay, fine. But that's not a loving arrangement. That's a logistical one.

Her duty sex for 14 years was dishonest and inauthentic. I don't see anything loving about that.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

musicftw07 said:


> I can tell you what it doesn't look like.
> 
> It doesn't look like having nothing kind to say about their spouse.
> 
> ...


She may not love him. Who knows. I think ANY person has the unilateral right on what they do with their body. If she had said we are never having sex again, and no I won't go to counseling, I'd advise his not present form to RUN. We have no idea of the backstory of other relationship issues. But being used as a warm hole for 14 years might make me feel pretty resentful. A person who will undress an unresponsive form so he can stick his **** in it... Makes me wonder. If he is really stepping up "lately" what does that mean about the previous years? Oh goodie, we are all good now. Let's go **** like rockstars.

But what really baffles me is accusing her of malfeasance for only wanting sex when she wants it. That's no good. Can't do that, wife. That is unloving, even if it is YOUR body. But duty sex, now that is BAD. BAD BAD BAD.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not the OP. Was the bolded intentional? I totally get wanting to be desired. That's a no brainer. I get a person not wanting to settle for duty sex. I get a person leaving over it. What I don't get is whatever poster calling the OP unloving, having never loved, having done the best she could for 14 years? There is likely a lot both of them could have done over the years for the feelings to not get this bad at this point. But in what way is her having sex with her husband unloving?


Yes it was for you, it was a question for you and the general public. 

Having duty sex with your husband, is not loving in any way, unless there is some super special set of circumstances that I cannot even imagine, other than that... (oh sorry, I just threw up a little in my mouth) it is not loving. 

What would be loving, if she ever loved him at all, which I doubt, would have been for her to divorce him, Or at least tell him that she has no sexual interest in him and let him decide to divorce, or ask him If he wants to find a girlfriend or an open marriage or something...

But to have crappy sex with a man that you have no attraction to in any way, good grief, he has to know that she hates it or he is just a complete moron and a weak beta man. 

Real men, understand the difference, real men would not put up with duty sex if they knew it was going on. It is little better than prostitution on both sides as far as I am concerned. 

Women want to be loved, guess what, so do men, and what she has been doing for 14 years is not love...


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> > I can tell you what it doesn't look like.
> ...


The catch is that she NEVER wants sex. At least, that's how her post came across. Since she's had to go to sex therapy and took medication, I'm going to surmise that she pretty much never wants it.

Which is fine, if that's true. She doesn't have to want it. And that leads me back to the question I originally posed to her, and which she still has yet to answer: why does she stay? If your assertion is true, and he's been using her as nothing but a warm hole, then why would she want to stay? Why would she want to work things out? See, I don't think your argument that he uses her as a warm hole is accurate. I think she just has no drive for him and wants him to just roll over and accept it. Look at how she described the night with friends over. She said she had a good time. But once per husband's sex drive came up it was all over.

Like I said, she wants a roommate. I just don't think her H got the memo. Now, 14 years later, she's making the unilateral decision that they're going to be roommates. There is no love in that arrangement. Stability, comfort, maybe even friendship, yes.

But love? I don't see it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> Yes, IT IS. Any man that actually puts up with it is a puss, unless he is too stupid to know what is going on.


Or all he wants is a warm hole, awake or not.



> BTW, in case you did not know it folks, men actually like to be desired by their partner.
> 
> I mean, having sex with a woman that did not desire me, I think it would make me puke. How any man can do that is a complete and total mystery to me.
> 
> YUCK...


This is just not the case for all men. How men can do that may be a mystery to you. It would for me too. But not all men care, as long as they are getting it. Some men don't care if someone else thinks they are a beta man or a wuss.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

musicftw07 said:


> The catch is that she NEVER wants sex. At least, that's how her post came across. Since she's had to go to sex therapy and took medication, I'm going to surmise that she pretty much never wants it.
> 
> Which is fine, if that's true. She doesn't have to want it. And that leads me back to the question I originally posed to her, and which she still has yet to answer: why does she stay? If your assertion is true, and he's been using her as nothing but a warm hole, then why would she want to stay? Why would she want to work things out? See, I don't think your argument that he uses her as a warm hole is accurate. I think she just has no drive for him and wants him to just roll over and accept it. Look at how she described the night with friends over. She said she had a good time. But once per husband's sex drive came up it was all over.
> 
> ...


No idea. We don't know why she had sex when she did not want it. We don't know if he cared about duty sex, and if so why she was good with that. Bet that takes some unpacking. 

I really only have ONE objection on this thread. Categorizing her as a big, fat meanie for not wanting sex. We really have no idea if he even ever told her he wanted desire from her. What we DO know is that he had sex with her unresponsive body then tried to convince her that that is NOT what happened. Things that make you go hmmmm.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> BluesPower said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, IT IS. Any man that actually puts up with it is a puss, unless he is too stupid to know what is going on.
> ...


If all he wanted were a warm hole, I don't think he'd be trying to be better like OP said he was. I also think he'd be leaving her alone and getting it somewhere else. I mean, if as you say that's all he's after, it's not like the OP is the only source of it.

I think he did something really stupid that night. I think the drugs and alcohol clouded his judgment and he did something very uncool. I wouldn't blame the OP for saying "Never do that again."

But yet again, that leads me back to yet another I question for which I'm still awaiting an answer: why hasn't she kicked him out over it? Why hasn't she filed charges against him?

There has to be some reason she's sticking it out. I just don't think it's love.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

She's not a big fat meanie for not wanting sex. It's making the unilateral decision without any recourse for him as a result of it that I question. That in addition to her staying in what is obviously a marriage far beyond the death throes that just needs to be dead and buried.

I have said that multiple times in this thread.

I highly doubt you would have the same reaction if he came here posting that her H told her what she told him. I think there's a double standard at play here.

I would really like her H to chime in here. His perspective would be very helpful.


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## TheBohannons (Apr 6, 2018)

If your husband bought you a rose every day but didn't want to, what is the value of the rose?
If your husband told you he loved you, but didn't mean it, what is the value of his love?
If he told you you were beautiful, while feeling disgust, what value are his words?
If he takes you out, but has one eye on the Game, wouldn't it be better to go out with your girlfriends?
If he went limp when you took off your clothes, but popped a Viagra, how sexy would you feel?

If all of his attempts to meet your emotional needs and validation are FAKE and the site of you naked disgust him, what value would you put on his "love"

The answer is zero. Which is the value of her "sacrifice". Thats what men here are reading.

You dont love him. Stop the fighting and separate in peace.

BTW, My F would not put up with 14 days of passionless sex, let alone 14 years. And she certainly would not marry me, if I said sex was only going to be on my terms.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is just not the case for all men. How men can do that may be a mystery to you. It would for me too. But not all men care, as long as they are getting it. Some men don't care if someone else thinks they are a beta man or a wuss.


You should not be a strong capable man because you are concerned about what others think. You should be a strong man, because that is what you should do for yourself. 

And, an man that accepts duty sex from his wife is a wuss. 

This is one thing that is wrong with this world, weak stupid men, that allow themselves to accept duty sex and either don't know the difference or actually accept it. 

And NS, men can get that stuff anywhere just like women can. 

You see, when you are in love with someone, romantically, generally you want to have sex with that person. And you want that other person to want to have sex with you. 

What is going on in this relationship is not love as far as I can see...


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> But to have crappy sex with a man that you have no attraction to in any way, good grief, *he has to know that she hates it* or he is just a complete moron and a weak beta man.
> 
> Real men, understand the difference, real men would not put up with duty sex if they knew it was going on. It is little better than prostitution on both sides as far as I am concerned.
> 
> Women want to be loved, guess what, so do men, and what she has been doing for 14 years is not love...


So he knows she hates it, and he does it anyway, even when she is apparently passed out. He also doesn't make any effort to change why she hates it. That's not love either. That's treating her as a masturbatory aid instead of a human being. No doubt that's a big part of why she doesn't love him.

This long afterwards, and with only one of them posting, it would be impossible to untangle which came first.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* NobodySpecial
But being used as a warm hole for 14 years might make me feel pretty resentful. *

In my experience with one very long term sexual relationship, I hear the "warm hole" trash used when the man tries but the woman has her mind made up he is using her for this reason. In some cases it might feel that was to the woman and the guy is thinking along the lines of love and appreciation about her. I see no way a guy can overcome this "warm hole" though some women have. It isn't much different than some women thinking they are fat and the H says he loves her the way she is (actually she isn't fat). The other classic situation is "do these pants make my butt look big." We almost know there is never a good answer to that question. If we men say no, " love you the way you are" we lose. If we say no, we get accused of lying.

I will admit to not being the sharpest tack in the box when it came to sexual knowledge or technique, but I tried mostly to reap few positive comments or enthusiastic clues to what worked in a positive manner. What did work was my W wanting to get pregnant, then the sex was great.

Most "warm hole" comments leads me to thing a few might be true but most seem to be sexual mismatched people or someone with a lot of resentments.

As far as the OP's situation, I don't see the M working very well. I totally understand her lack liking sex, it happens and is called LD and maybe bordering on being asexual. But what do I know. I see a big missmatch that probably has no common or normal solutions.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

It really is a horrible, sticky wicket. I have this little movie running in my head about the differences in formative years that play into the horrible disconnect in this discussion. The messages we get growing up about relationships seems little and sex is anywhere between confusing and really ****ed up. I really do feel awful for these people, largely men, who do the "right" things, and get stuck in this place. I also feel awful for these women who do the "right" thing and also wind up in this awful place. And here is where it breaks down and these conversations become so unhelpful. Not HE did the right thing, she didn't. Women are wrong and bad for not knowing this. Men who put up with this are wusses. One thing anyone who has ever been in marriage counseling or any kind of therapy at all will know that blame never leads to understanding and thus positive change.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

The way this conversation has turned, I can't help think of the MANY threads posted by men who have no sex or infrequent, un-engaged sex. I get that the tactics they are using are yucky. I cannot imagine getting engaged and frisky in bed with a barrage of can we have sex? When can we have sex? If I romance you, then we can have sex? Is it their FAULT that those are the only tools they have? Is it their FAULT that when push comes to shove, they have to choose between the mother of their children, the person they sit down to dinner with every day, the person they have been making financial and life goals with for how ever many decades and good sex? No. Yet, that is what we give them, to my discredit, myself among them.

On the flip side, there is very little empathy for the mostly wives whose narrative we don't know since they don't post here. If they do, I imagine it would not look as stark ass the OP but not altogether disssimilar. By the time anyone posts here, they are do filled with resentment, pain and confusion, the issues are often clouded in layers of goo. And in their perspective, they DON'T want sex with their husbands. I can see how they wouldn't. And they get the same blame stuff.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> The way this conversation has turned, I can't help think of the MANY threads posted by men who have no sex or infrequent, un-engaged sex. I get that the tactics they are using are yucky. I cannot imagine getting engaged and frisky in bed with a barrage of can we have sex? When can we have sex? If I romance you, then we can have sex? Is it their FAULT that those are the only tools they have? Is it their FAULT that when push comes to shove, they have to choose between the mother of their children, the person they sit down to dinner with every day, the person they have been making financial and life goals with for how ever many decades and good sex? No. Yet, that is what we give them, to my discredit, myself among them.
> 
> On the flip side, there is very little empathy for the mostly wives whose narrative we don't know since they don't post here. If they do, I imagine it would not look as stark ass the OP but not altogether disssimilar. By the time anyone posts here, they are do filled with resentment, pain and confusion, the issues are often clouded in layers of goo. And in their perspective, they DON'T want sex with their husbands. I can see how they wouldn't. And they get the same blame stuff.


I actually agree with pretty much everything you said here. I don't think PL is a bad person, FTR. I just think the way she's handling the situation now is only making a bad situation worse. And I also think her feelings and attitude reflect that resentment you mentioned above. And that it's gotten so bad that this marriage is probably unsalvageable.

I also believe that women who adamantly don't want sex with their husbands are ripe for an affair. We've seen it many times here, and I've lived it myself. My guess is PL isn't asexual or LD in general, she just feels that way towards her H. Again, how many threads do we see where the wife has no drive for her H but she has a massive drive for an OM?

I just hope it doesn't take an affair to get this marriage over and done with. And for the life of me I don't understand why she's trying to hold on to something she can't stand. There must be something she gets from it, but that's something that she'd have to share with us so we can get more context.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

*Now these two posts are good, insightful, thoughtful and most of all REAL...*



NobodySpecial said:


> It really is a horrible, sticky wicket. I have this little movie running in my head about the differences in formative years that play into the horrible disconnect in this discussion. The messages we get growing up about relationships seems little and sex is anywhere between confusing and really ****ed up. I really do feel awful for these people, largely men, who do the "right" things, and get stuck in this place. I also feel awful for these women who do the "right" thing and also wind up in this awful place. And here is where it breaks down and these conversations become so unhelpful. Not HE did the right thing, she didn't. Women are wrong and bad for not knowing this. Men who put up with this are wusses. One thing anyone who has ever been in marriage counseling or any kind of therapy at all will know that blame never leads to understanding and thus positive change.





NobodySpecial said:


> The way this conversation has turned, I can't help think of the MANY threads posted by men who have no sex or infrequent, un-engaged sex. I get that the tactics they are using are yucky. I cannot imagine getting engaged and frisky in bed with a barrage of can we have sex? When can we have sex? If I romance you, then we can have sex? Is it their FAULT that those are the only tools they have? Is it their FAULT that when push comes to shove, they have to choose between the mother of their children, the person they sit down to dinner with every day, the person they have been making financial and life goals with for how ever many decades and good sex? No. Yet, that is what we give them, to my discredit, myself among them.
> 
> On the flip side, there is very little empathy for the mostly wives whose narrative we don't know since they don't post here. If they do, I imagine it would not look as stark ass the OP but not altogether disssimilar. By the time anyone posts here, they are do filled with resentment, pain and confusion, the issues are often clouded in layers of goo. And in their perspective, they DON'T want sex with their husbands. I can see how they wouldn't. And they get the same blame stuff.


Now these two posts are good, insightful, thoughtful and most of all REAL...

You see, I think both partners in situations like this thread, are both to blame. Now granted, we do not have both stories. And, yes she is getting bashed for giving 14 years of duty sex to her husband. 

But that is not all I am bashing her for, I am bashing her FOR ALLOWING HERSELF TO ACCEPT 14 YEARS OF DUTY SEX AS WELL. That is something that she had control over. 

She had the choice to divorce her husband, which is what I believe that she should have done. Who is it that told women, or men, that hum drum, worthless, unexciting sex is how a marriage or relationship is supposed to be, because THAT person needs to be punched in the mouth. 

Now in my life, which I don't think has been particularly spectacular, but not bad in my opinion, it never occurred to me to think that this was how it was supposed to be. I made a lot of mistakes in my marriages, but never this one. So I guess I just don't get this aspect. 

I, as a man, have never asked for sex in my entire life, and I have had a LOT of sex. 

And while I may have waited too long to divorce my last wife for a lot of other reasons, poor sex was not one of them. 

But to your posts, I think men and women have a responsibility to themselves and each other... to be self aware enough to understand WHEN they are not happy and do something about it. 

Maybe divorce, maybe work on the marriage, but for god's sake can we at least recognize that there is a problem and deal with it. 

How sad is it that OP has really wasted 14 years of her life in a marriage, where honestly - she did not love or desire her husband, when the love of her life could have been living somewhere close and she never took the chance to see what was out there. 

Let me give you an example from my recent life with current GF. She is 60, post menopausal, fit, looks way younger, and she is basically smoking hot. I am 53. 

Now ever since we have gotten together, besides that fact that we may actual - for real - be each others ONE true love, all she talks about is how great the sex is. "I never knew sex could be like this!", "I never understood what I was missing", "Is it always like this for you?" and frankly a million other questions like these. 

The first or second time that we had sex, she almost passed out and when we were finished she went into kind of a fetal position to catch her breath and recover. 

Now, I am happy to say that I am pretty good in bed, but I am not THAT good, I mean come on. What she was dealing with is that she had never experienced that before. 

She endured years of bad sex with her pervious partners for a lot of reasons, but mostly, she did not know any better. So is that her fault or is it her partners fault... I am not sure what the answer is. 

In this thread, I absolutely think OP should have divorced her husband years ago, and after the "Friday Night Incident" I think it is almost an imperative. 

Is it her fault or is it his fault, who knows, but she can only control herself, and if she wants a chance at happiness, I think she needs to divorce...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

@BluesPower not wrong, just linear. It takes ONE element of the marriage and puts it above all others. Who knows why she stayed. Who knows why he stayed? THEY might not even know.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> @BluesPower not wrong, just linear. It takes ONE element of the marriage and puts it above all others. Who knows why she stayed. Who knows why he stayed? THEY might not even know.


I don't disagree, except to say this:

While I am being simplistic about this, I believe that is really is simple. If the sex in a marriage is not good, not satisfying to one or both parties, non-existent, or maybe really infrequent, that relationship has problems. 

lf you are able to fix the sexual aspect of the relationship you can, and maybe already have, fix the other problems in the relationship. 

For me, I wish that was not the case, because I have had sex cover up the other aspects when I was younger and stupid. Now I know the difference. 

But if the sex is bad, the relationship is most likely bad at the core. Yes, everyone can site exceptions, but overall, I believe that this is the way that it is.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> I don't disagree, except to say this:
> 
> While I am being simplistic about this, I believe that is really is simple. If the sex in a marriage is not good, not satisfying to one or both parties, non-existent, or maybe really infrequent, that relationship has problems.


No issue there.



> lf you are able to fix the sexual aspect of the relationship you can, and maybe already have, fix the other problems in the relationship.


There, I disagree. The highest value issue(s) have to be fixed by both parties with and for both parties. 



> For me, I wish that was not the case, because I have had sex cover up the other aspects when I was younger and stupid. Now I know the difference.
> 
> But if the sex is bad, the relationship is most likely bad at the core. Yes, everyone can site exceptions, but overall, I believe that this is the way that it is.


Or it could just be a leading indicator.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Much of this discussion doesn’t belong here. This thread belongs to the OP, but has been turned into a forum for speculating about the OP while she happens to not be here (at best) and for assertions about sexually conflicted relationships in general.

I wish a mod would consider deleting the messages where folks got off track and hijacked the thread.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

PieceOfSky said:


> Much of this discussion doesn’t belong here. This thread belongs to the OP, but has been turned into a forum for speculating about the OP while she happens to not be here (at best) and for assertions about sexually conflicted relationships in general.
> 
> I wish a mod would consider deleting the messages where folks got off track and hijacked the thread.


Those discussions were completely relative as to whether or not OP should divorce and leave this marriage or not. 

I think all of those posting and the opinions of them are valuable to anyone especially someone like OP in an unsatisfactory marriage. 

In fact, most of those posts actually talk about how OP got herself in this F***** up situation. 

To which I say that they are both to blame for the Incident, and that while she is pissed about that, her larger problem is her marriage in general. 

Any women that hangs around for 14 years of bad duty sex has done a huge disservice to herself, most importantly, and to her "Husband" as well. 

And BTW, "Husband" is used in quotes there because he is husband in name only. There is and has not been any love or desire for years.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

PatriciaLee said:


> Slowly over the past two years, things have begun to get bad again. I was still having sex with my husband frequently to keep him happy (after 2 days without sex, he starts turning into an irritable ass), but about a month ago, I finally reached the point where I just could not do it anymore. *And I told him. I have no connection with him. I wasn't having sex any more unless I wanted to.*
> 
> He immediately chalked it up to me being depressed. He started trying to be the perfect husband: helping with the kids without me asking. Doing more around the house. Asking my opinion on things.
> 
> I broke down and* told him everything I was uphappy with. How I've felt like i am not a priority. How things are always his way unless I put up a fight, which I hate. The sexual grievances from the past.*






Angelwanderer said:


> Wishes? She didn't make ANY wish known. If her wish was NOT to have sex, then she said/did nothing. ok. It's fiction, mostly. wp.me/P2KLp8-i1j


Evidently you don't know how to read, or *you don't believe that saying something once isn't enough*. OP told her husband that she didn't want to have sex with him unless she wanted to, and she told him all the reasons, all of which I haven't quoted here. If you want to know what the rest of them are, read her posts.

He ignored her request (wishes) and took what he wanted when he thought she was passed out...only she wasn't.

wanderer, are you MGTOW or just bitter against all women because of your own sexless situation, according to your signature?

Instead of projecting your problems onto OP, and bashing her while she is down, why don't you open your own thread and tell us about your sexless marriage and your role in it?


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

Angelwanderer said:


> Let's not hop across and assume I'm taking his side just because I'm not supporting hers.


^^^ This.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Angelwanderer said:


> I
> Most of us know, approaching each sexual encounter is unique to all situations, including those that don't come off. The words we use, the body language, the situation and location, all go into making or breaking it.
> 
> Saying 'no' last time does not count for the next time and ALL other times.


So you think that OP laying there pretending to be passed out on their bed, eyes closed, not speaking to him the entire time he is preparing her for sex, him having to manhandle her pants off without any help or words from her is a special situation that communicated that she had changed her mind and her desire for sex had changed???

A person would have to be daft or a sociopath to interpret that from her (lack of) interaction. Surely you don't believe @PatriciaLee was giving off vibes that she was into it while she was pretending to be passed out?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

They are both using the other person. Both lying. Both being manipulative. Both pretending.

In the context of that kind of relationship, in which OP willingly remains, I see no reason to favor a "yes means yes" standard over a "no means no". There is no power imbalance here. She didn't fear that saying no would lead to him becoming physically violent. Maybe he would get angry and berate her but nothing she hasn't dealt with before. She knew what he was doing and she did not object. She was tired and high and drunk and preferred to let him have sex with her (admittedly undesired on her part) rather than to have a fight with him. Her choice.

They are married. She wants certain things from him that she knows she won't get if she tells him the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So she holds back. She is dancing with the devil. She is going to get burned. If she wants out of the fire, she knows where the exit is. But she does not want to walk through it.

Not saying he is an angel. He is a jerk. But she knows that. And chooses to stay anyway.

They should divorce. They choose not to. That inevitably comes with lots of pain and compromise and indignity. Which is why they should divorce.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

@MEM2020 or other moderators:

I ask for a review of this thread. There are thread-jacks that are unkind/unhelpful to the OP and few have read her previous thread as they do not seem to take into account that OP's husband anally raped her in the past along with other bad behavior.

I am concerned that OP is being further traumatized herein.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blues,

I actually believe that your mindset creates sexless marriages. And here’s why: you don’t get to ‘order’ passion like you order a pizza. Passion is partly linked to biology and hormones and dims with age. 

For some reason - people have a very difficult time differentiating between engagement (which demonstrates a desire to please) and passion (lust). One is a choice and the other a feeling. 

I would not tolerate disengaged sex. But I don’t get to dictate how turned on M2 gets. Even more important, I interpret passion-lite sex as a genuine gift. It reflects a genuine desire to please. 

Pressuring your spouse to act more passionate than they feel - is probably the most selfish non violet thing you can do in a marriage.




BluesPower said:


> It would look like she wanted to actually have sex with him.
> 
> Why is this concept hard to understand for some women. When you had a sex drive, did you want your husband to desire you. Did you want to be wanted?
> 
> Or, did you never have a sex drive?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: Now these two posts are good, insightful, thoughtful and most of all REAL...*

Blues,

Your post below is really good. 

M2 and I are in year 28, 26 married. From the beginning - sometimes I could get her off, sometimes not. She told me straight up that sometimes she just isn’t in the right head space to get there. All I said was: don’t ever pretend with me, whatever happens happens - I just can’t be with someone thinks they have to pretend things are better than they are. 







BluesPower said:


> Now these two posts are good, insightful, thoughtful and most of all REAL...
> 
> You see, I think both partners in situations like this thread, are both to blame. Now granted, we do not have both stories. And, yes she is getting bashed for giving 14 years of duty sex to her husband.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Red,

This is a difficult topic. 

And Patricia is in a difficult spot. 

That said, my post below was at the end of her prior thread. For context: she described her first sexual experience being with her husband and not being consensual. And was referencing that as part of why she wasn’t attracted to him. 

She proceeded to abandon her thread. I am not defending her H, I think he has raped her at least three times. That said, Patricia has chosen not to confront his behavior. She chose to marry him.



—————-+-+++. 
Patricia,
Head scratch. You ummm had a LOT of opportunities to address the virginity issue with him. 

Like - well - before you slept with him the second time
Or when he proposed to you
Or during your engagement 
Or before you decided to try for your first child


I believe you need to deal with this. And that you need to own the fact you've been hiding major stuff from him most of your relationship. Not medium sized stuff. MAJOR STUFF. 

Unless you at least own your piece of this mess - you will remain angry and unhappy and will end up divorced. 

And don't even take one step down the path of - but you don't understand what he is like 

Not with me. I KNOW what he's like. My partner is the female version of your H. 

You got his attention the only possible way - by withdrawing sexually

I got hers by withdrawing from the marriage financially 

Now that you have his attention - TELL HIM THE TRUTH 

Including WHY you haven't told him the truth before now. Because he really never t




Red Sonja said:


> @MEM2020 or other moderators:
> 
> I ask for a review of this thread. There are thread-jacks that are unkind/unhelpful to the OP and few have read her previous thread as they do not seem to take into account that OP's husband anally raped her in the past along with other bad behavior.
> 
> I am concerned that OP is being further traumatized herein.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Red,

If you find an individual post to be in violation of the rules, report it and the mods will assess it. 




Red Sonja said:


> @MEM2020 or other moderators:
> 
> I ask for a review of this thread. There are thread-jacks that are unkind/unhelpful to the OP and few have read her previous thread as they do not seem to take into account that OP's husband anally raped her in the past along with other bad behavior.
> 
> I am concerned that OP is being further traumatized herein.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

musicftw07 said:


> I won't argue that my post was somewhat presumptive. But let's look at some things you told us in your OP.
> 
> You told your husband you're not going to have sex with him "unless you want to". You also said you don't want to have sex with him. Which means you're not going to have sex with him anymore. Let's not beat around the bush here. You're forcing celibacy on him. At least have the gumption to admit it.
> 
> You're holding him hostage sexually. You're using it as a weapon.


He is free to leave, free to declare his sexual independence. He has many choices. She is not using force or fraud.

She is giving him a chance to participate in solving their problems, to turn towards each other and work for a solution.




> I don't think for a second your sex drive is gone. I think you don't have a sex drive FOR HIM.
> 
> And IMO that makes you ripe for an affair. Why do I presume such? Because I was there. I lived it in my marriage. And my XWW had an affair. She had no sex drive FOR ME. It didn't matter what I did around the house to help, like your husband is by your own admission. I see many parallels, and I don't think there's anything your H can do to make you desire him. I think your desire for him is 100% dead and gone.
> 
> ...


IME, hope, fear, many subtle defense mechanisms, a subconscious drive to experience over and over deprivations and threats felt in child hood tend to keep people in toxic situations. Some amplified by concerns about the children. There are lots of possibilities, and my guess is the fact “you can only assume” power and control drive her tells us more about you and how you experienced your situation than it tells us about PatriciaLee.



> You'll eventually meet a guy who revves your engine. And you'll have sex with him. And you'll like it. And your H will continue to be under your thumb. And you'll get off on it.


This is toxic and abusive. Who the hell are you to tell an OP or anyone here that she is gone by to cheat and enjoy it? It happens. It sounds like it happened to you, and I am sorry. I can appreciate it is a pitfall one needs to be careful of, and can respect your desire to encourage folks to be careful. You can find a better way to encourage folks to tread carefully.



> If I were your H, I would have noped the hell out of your M a long time ago. I can't guess as to why he hasn't because he's not the one posting here. You are.


We can only guess the reasons why, even when a poster is here. Knowing the truth is hard. Have some humility and respect.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> So he knows she hates it, and he does it anyway, even when she is apparently passed out. He also doesn't make any effort to change why she hates it. That's not love either. That's treating her as a masturbatory aid instead of a human being. No doubt that's a big part of why she doesn't love him.
> 
> This long afterwards, and with only one of them posting, it would be impossible to untangle which came first.


I wonder if he really thought she was passed out? Or maybe he thought -at the time- that she was merely pretending?


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

PieceOfSky said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> > I won't argue that my post was somewhat presumptive. But let's look at some things you told us in your OP.
> ...


She is also free to leave, free to declare her sexual independence from him. She has many choices. However, she is using force. She has unilaterally cut him off with no compromise. That is not giving a chance to participate, and in fact is turning herself farther away from him.

Did we read the same thread?



> > I don't think for a second your sex drive is gone. I think you don't have a sex drive FOR HIM.
> >
> > And IMO that makes you ripe for an affair. Why do I presume such? Because I was there. I lived it in my marriage. And my XWW had an affair. She had no sex drive FOR ME. It didn't matter what I did around the house to help, like your husband is by your own admission. I see many parallels, and I don't think there's anything your H can do to make you desire him. I think your desire for him is 100% dead and gone.
> >
> ...


The fact that she has made this decision without any attempt at compromise gives the best indication of her motives. She has exacted power and control over him.



> > You'll eventually meet a guy who revves your engine. And you'll have sex with him. And you'll like it. And your H will continue to be under your thumb. And you'll get off on it.
> 
> 
> This is toxic and abusive. Who the hell are you to tell an OP or anyone here that she is gone by to cheat and enjoy it? It happens. It sounds like it happened to you, and I am sorry. I can appreciate it is a pitfall one needs to be careful of, and can respect your desire to encourage folks to be careful. You can find a better way to encourage folks to tread carefully.


Fair point. I apologize for making that statement as forcefully as I did.



> > If I were your H, I would have noped the hell out of your M a long time ago. I can't guess as to why he hasn't because he's not the one posting here. You are.
> 
> 
> We can only guess the reasons why, even when a poster is here. Knowing the truth is hard. Have some humility and respect.


There is very little respect to be found in this situation, from either of them.

It sounds like he's a man-child and that she doesn't care about him in the slightest beyond a roommate capacity. What is there to respect in either of their decisions?


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

First. I love how people presume to be experts on my situation. 

I am not Low Drive. Or Asexual. I have a healthy sexual desire, just not for my husband, which, as I am learning through counselling, is due to the fact that I have NO control over most aspects of my life, both due to my own desire to avoid conflict, and my husband tendency to want everything his way.

Next, I am working on things. Still. 

We have had sex twice since the "Friday Night Incident."

It took me a lot to even try to go there. I honestly felt sick even thinking about it, simply due to the fact that I felt so violated and betrayed by what had happen.

I did not enjoy sex either time, husband was thoroughly happy and cheerful that we had sex.

We have been working together a lot at trying to improve our relationship. He has a hard time comprehending that him finally fulfilling my (non-sexual) needs does not equal immediate sexual desire on my part. I'm still not excited about physical intimacy (even kisses or hugging) but I am really trying to appreciate the positives in this relationship and trying to see if we can get something back. I do want to feel connected to him. I want to want him. .. I just don't know what it will take to get there. We're trying, and that is all we can do.

As for the answer to why I stay, what's in it for me, etc, that everyone keeps asking: 1. We have kids, and it's not fair for me to flip their world on its head just because I am unhappy. 2. This is the only relationship I've really been in. I don't know how long-term relationships evolve over time. I want to be sure this is not just a bump in the tracks before throwing it away. 

Therapy is helping me. Husband might also begin seeing a therapist. Will try to stop by and update you all as I try to navigate through this.


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## LuvMyLady (Apr 30, 2018)

You need to love your hubby and forgive him.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

LuvMyLady said:


> You need to love your hubby and forgive him.


No, forgiveness is a possibility for a person who has acknowledged and apologized for what they have done without excuses. Her H has done neither.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Red Sonja said:


> No, forgiveness is a possibility for a person who has acknowledged and apologized for what they have done without excuses. Her H has done neither.


Now maybe I am wrong, but hasn't he done this already? I know that at the beginning that he wanted to deflect and blame shift, but I though he got past that. 

I got to say, either way, I just don't see this M working out. This incident, incompatible sex drives with no compromise from her at all. 

While he was a complete creep, I don't even know how many weak men would put up with this situation as far as the "Compromise" is concerned.


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> I got to say, either way, I just don't see this M working out. This incident, incompatible sex drives with no compromise from her at all.


Why the hell do we keep coming back to me not compromising?? Despite my hang-ups on having sex after the "Friday incident" I have pushed past it and had sex with him. I spent a large portion of our marriage providing him with what he needed from me, and got little in return from him in regards to meeting my needs.

Now that I am requesting that my needs be met, I am an uncompromising monster who is holding him as a sexual hostage...?!


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

PatriciaLee said:


> First. I love how people presume to be experts on my situation.
> 
> I am not Low Drive. Or Asexual. I have a healthy sexual desire, just not for my husband, which, as I am learning through counselling, is due to the fact that I have NO control over most aspects of my life, both due to my own desire to avoid conflict, and my husband tendency to want everything his way.


This is exactly what I said at the beginning of this thread. You're not low drive or asexual, you just have no drive for your husband.

I must reiterate that you have agency. Your assertion that you have no control feels like an excuse.



> Next, I am working on things. Still.
> 
> We have had sex twice since the "Friday Night Incident."
> 
> ...


I'm going to give you a kudos for trying. I know that must have been hard, but you deserve credit for trying to engage with your husband. 



> We have been working together a lot at trying to improve our relationship. He has a hard time comprehending that him finally fulfilling my (non-sexual) needs does not equal immediate sexual desire on my part. I'm still not excited about physical intimacy (even kisses or hugging) but I am really trying to appreciate the positives in this relationship and trying to see if we can get something back. I do want to feel connected to him. I want to want him. .. I just don't know what it will take to get there. We're trying, and that is all we can do.


I think this is fairly common. From a man's point of view, if I'm trying to do what I can to meet my partner's needs but she isn't trying to meet mine, then that is a deterrent for me to continue trying. I honestly get that a nice gesture doesn't equate to sexual desire on your part, and that it's not something that can be forced. So I'm not coming down on you for that. I'm just trying to provide insight into how he may be feeling based on similar experiences.

I think that the negatives outweigh the positives for you at this point.



> As for the answer to why I stay, what's in it for me, etc, that everyone keeps asking: 1. We have kids, and it's not fair for me to flip their world on its head just because I am unhappy. 2. This is the only relationship I've really been in. I don't know how long-term relationships evolve over time. I want to be sure this is not just a bump in the tracks before throwing it away.
> 
> Therapy is helping me. Husband might also begin seeing a therapist. Will try to stop by and update you all as I try to navigate through this.


Gently but firmly, those aren't valid reasons for staying. It sounds like you want a connection with your husband for reasons that don't include him as a person or you two as a couple. They have to do with you and your kids only. That's a recipe for failure.

Therapy is good for both of you.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

PL,

You wrote, *I am not Low Drive. Or Asexual. I have a healthy sexual desire, just not for my husband, which, as I am learning through counselling, is due to the fact that I have NO control over most aspects of my life, both due to my own desire to avoid conflict, and my husband tendency to want everything his way.*

I am curious have you told your H that you are still a sexual being just not for him? 

And if you haven't told him do you think it is fair to without this important information about the state of your marriage?

At various times my W has told me inconsistent stories about being too busy, or too old, or asexual, or scared of infection, but never a believable story. Which leads me to think she knows why but just can't bring herself to say it.

Tamat


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

PatriciaLee said:


> Why the hell do we keep coming back to me not compromising?? Despite my hang-ups on having sex after the "Friday incident" I have pushed past it and had sex with him. I spent a large portion of our marriage providing him with what he needed from me, and got little in return from him in regards to meeting my needs.
> 
> Now that I am requesting that my needs be met, I am an uncompromising monster who is holding him as a sexual hostage...?!


Listen, I am not saying that you are a monster. But no, you have not compromised. 

As I read it, you are a 2 times a week girl. Ok. He is a 7 times a week guy. YOUR compromise is 2 times a week. That is not a compromise because you are still at 2 times a week. By definition, a compromise would be 3 times a week at LEAST. 

And still, you feel like you have gone OUT OF YOUR WAY by having sex with him twice a week. Like it is an imposition. 

I am sorry, but the incident aside, these are not the words of a loving wife that WANTS to have sex with her husband. 

No matter what people have said, you still maintain that position, even what a blind man can see, you refuse to see. 

This is not a loving healthy marriage, it is just not. People that are in love WANT to have sex. 

I think that you feel you "compromised" and put "such an effort" into having sex with your husband because in reality YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH HIM AT ALL. 

Incident aside, why don't you admit that. Again, people that ARE IN LOVE, want to have sex with each other. 

I am sorry you don't like what you hear, but I think this is a fact. 

I think your husband should divorce you instead of begging you for sex twice a week. 

This is not the way thing are supposed to be in a marriage, any marriage. If this is what your girlfriends tell you it is supposed to be like, then they are fools. 

Why is it so hard for you to understand this??????


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

musicftw07 said:


> I must reiterate that you have agency. Your assertion that you have no control feels like an excuse.


An excuse for what? Would you feel attraction/connection/positive feelings for someone who, in your relationship, gets upset whenever you try to express how you feel about things? Snaps at you for disagreeing? Makes you feel like an idiot for wanting different things than they do? Having no interest at all in your feelings or desires? Because for years (and yes, this is my fault for not speaking up more and always backing down), that's how it was for me. For me, it's hard to remain in love with someone who you don't feel is your companion and does not take your needs or opinions seriously because they are more concerned with what they might want.



> From a man's point of view, if I'm trying to do what I can to meet my partner's needs but she isn't trying to meet mine, then that is a deterrent for me to continue trying.


This is no different for women. What I've tried to explain is that I spent 14 years meeting all of his needs with minimal effort from him to meet mine. I'm not just talking sex. I made sure he got lots of sex. I made his life as easy as possible. I never discouraged any of his big purchased, activities or desires, while for years, I never got any of the things I wanted because "we couldn't afford it." When we had children, his life didn't change. While everyone else was keeping their hubby's at home to help with their babies, I let him continue all of his activities and didn't interfere with his spare time. It took me having a near emotional break-down before he started helping with our kids. His life was cushy, and for the longest time, I was completely happy with that arrangement (I love making people happy and people envied how easy-going his wife was), but when I continued to give, give, give, and get no support in return, that's when I started getting resentful and feeling as though I had no connection with him. I didn't feel like we were in a partnership.. I didn't feel like he was my companion. Now that he actually IS trying to be more of an equal partner, it is going to take time before those warm, fuzzy feelings come back. They don't just switch back on.




> Gently but firmly, those aren't valid reasons for staying. It sounds like you want a connection with your husband for reasons that don't include him as a person or you two as a couple. They have to do with you and your kids only. That's a recipe for failure.


Are you kidding me? Not wanting to ruin my children's lives is not a valid reason for trying to keep this family together? SO what exactly do I tell them in the future? "I didn't want to have sex with your father so I left him?"

Of course I want to love him. I want to be in a MUTUALLY fulfilling, loving relationship. I want him to be happy, and I want to be happy as well.


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

TAMAT said:


> PL,
> 
> 
> I am curious have you told your H that you are still a sexual being just not for him?
> ...


Yes. He knows that I have no sexual attraction to him. I have also explained WHY we have reached this point. He understands now, after reading "Love Busters," how important certain needs are to women, and how not having them met makes her sex drive disappear for her husband.


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> Listen, I am not saying that you are a monster. But no, you have not compromised.
> 
> As I read it, you are a 2 times a week girl. Ok. He is a 7 times a week guy. YOUR compromise is 2 times a week. That is not a compromise because you are still at 2 times a week. By definition, a compromise would be 3 times a week at LEAST.
> 
> ...


See, here's the thing. You say a wife should want to have sex with her husband because she loves him. I never once disagreed with that...

But shouldn't a husband WANT to help his wife out because he loves her? Shouldn't he WANT to help with the kids? Make her feel supported? Make her feel like a priority? Should I have to BEG him to help me with the kids when I am suffering from 2+ years worth of sleep deprivation? 

I spent the majority of our relationship NOT receiving what I needed from him, but giving him all he needs to be happy (and he would not go more than 3 days without having sex, except when I was healing from childbirth). Furthermore, he continued to push sexual boundaries that I again, and again expressed to him that I didn't want to cross. I tried things with him to see if we'd like it, I was open to a lot, but when I said I didn't want to do things, he'd still take it upon himself to try anyways, which made me feel like I can't trust him sexually... which for a lot of women is a big ****ing deal.

I would think that people who are in love not only want to have sex with each other, but also want to help them in other aspects of the relationship as well. I worked hard to meet his needs, even when I was too tired to, and didn't get a lot of that in return.

I think you're placing a lot of assumptions on me. I love(d) him and therefore wanted to have sex with him to keep him satisfied. I didn't always feel "in the mood", but his happiness was/is important to me. I'm sure he didn't want to change poopy diapers, stay at home with the kids rather than go out with his friends, or do dishes when I was too exhausted to... and he didn't... and to a woman, that translates into her feeling like she doesn't matter, she's not worth the effort, and thus, the connection and sexual desire for her husband disappears.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

PatriciaLee said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> > I must reiterate that you have agency. Your assertion that you have no control feels like an excuse.
> ...


An excuse for staying in this marriage.

I never said it was different for women. All I was trying to do is provide a possible insight into what your husband may be thinking. I never claimed it wasn't true for women as well. (In fact, I tried to demonstrate empathy towards your position that nice gestures by your husband don't automatically translate into sexual desire on your part.)

Divorce doesn't automatically ruin children's lives. I know this because I have a ten year old daughter who has thrived post-divorce. It's been six years and she does well in school, she does gymnastics, has recently started the violin, has friends, and is responsible. What you tell them is age appropriate. And you don't have to give them ALL the details; I would urge you to not do that. But you can speak the truth without divulging information too sensitive for their ages.


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## PatriciaLee (May 21, 2016)

musicftw07 said:


> An excuse for staying in this marriage.
> 
> I never said it was different for women. All I was trying to do is provide a possible insight into what your husband may be thinking. I never claimed it wasn't true for women as well. (In fact, I tried to demonstrate empathy towards your position that nice gestures by your husband don't automatically translate into sexual desire on your part.)
> 
> Divorce doesn't automatically ruin children's lives. I know this because I have a ten year old daughter who has thrived post-divorce. It's been six years and she does well in school, she does gymnastics, has recently started the violin, has friends, and is responsible. What you tell them is age appropriate. And you don't have to give them ALL the details; I would urge you to not do that. But you can speak the truth without divulging information too sensitive for their ages.


thank you for your advice and perspective. 

I want to be sure that I have tried absolutely everything before going down the road of divorce, but should it go there, I appreciate your re-assurance and advice regarding how to approach it.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

PatriciaLee,

Has your husband acknowledged the egregious things he has done (raping you) to kill your sexual attraction for him?

Do you think that if he ever acknowledged it, felt true remorse and worked on his issues, that you could have sexual desire for him again?

Personally, IMO, if you could regain sexual interest in him, it would only come after a very long time of changed behaviors from him. It would be possible on your end, but would be very difficult on his end.

Have you made it clear to him that there is a direct correlation between how he treats you (what he does to your brain and heart as a result of his disregard, disrespect and abuse) and your sexual attraction toward him?

You are going to have to speak up regularly, to let him know. "When you do (name behavior or action), I feel (name feeling). When I have negative feelings toward you because of your actions against me, it reduces my sexual attraction to you. Those negative feelings are cumulative, and without acknowledgments and sincere apologies from you, my sexual attraction for you gets buried under all those feelings.

Here is a list of feelings.

https://www.cnvc.org/sites/default/files/feelings_inventory_0.pdf

PatriciaLee, I commend you for taking care of his needs, even when your needs haven't been met. I also understand how you have gotten to where you are.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

PatriciaLee said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> > An excuse for staying in this marriage.
> ...


No worries.

The main point I'd like to drive home is that divorce doesn't automatically ruin children's lives. I have observed that divorce can be better for kids than their parents staying in a bad marriage, and have also observed the negative affects on people whose parents did stay in a bad marriage. All I'm trying to do is nudge your thinking into a different mindset, and to look at things from a different angle.

I also think it's not helpful to your marriage if your main impetus for staying is for your kids. When you say that, it seems as though the quality of the marriage you wish to have is determined by them, as opposed to what you really want (and what your husband really wants).

Children model the behavior displayed by their parents. Staying in a dysfunctional marriage models those dysfunctional behaviors to your kids. It normalizes it for them, and they repeat the same cycles of dysfunction. At some point, the cycle needs to break or else it'll continue with each subsequent generation.

I guess I would like to see you reframe your arguments for staying to be about what kind of relationship you wish to have, and what kind of marriage you wish to have. And to be honest about whether or not you believe it's achievable. A strong marriage builds a strong family. It all starts there.

You mentioned that you told your husband you're not sexually attracted to him. What was his response to that?


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

musicftw07 said:


> No worries.
> 
> The main point I'd like to drive home is that divorce doesn't automatically ruin children's lives. I have observed that divorce can be better for kids than their parents staying in a bad marriage, and have also observed the negative affects on people whose parents did stay in a bad marriage. All I'm trying to do is nudge your thinking into a different mindset, and to look at things from a different angle.
> 
> ...


This, so much. My daughter told me she was GLAD that her mother and I divorced. She concluded, by talking to her friends at school, nobody wants to live in an unhappy home and many of her schoolmates wished their parents would divorce as well versus fight so much.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

PigglyWiggly said:


> This, so much. My daughter told me she was GLAD that her mother and I divorced. She concluded, by talking to her friends at school, nobody wants to live in an unhappy home and many of her schoolmates wished their parents would divorce as well versus fight so much.


The problem with this line of reasoning is that it rests on what is, in many cases, a false dilemma.

You either
Fight in front of the kids and create a miserable household
or
Divorce

It ignores other options like working together to fix the marriage and recreate a happy home with stable parentage and a loving, nurturing environment for the kids. 

That is a general statement, not necessarily applicable to the case in this thread. It is worth noting only because far too many couples default far to easily to that false dilemma. For many, it's easier to just chuck it than to work on it. The number of divorces _and _still miserably married far exceeds the number of couples with truly irreconcilable differences that would force one or the other of these bad situations with no other options.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

PatriciaLee said:


> See, here's the thing. You say a wife should want to have sex with her husband because she loves him. I never once disagreed with that...
> 
> But shouldn't a husband WANT to help his wife out because he loves her? Shouldn't he WANT to help with the kids? Make her feel supported? Make her feel like a priority? Should I have to BEG him to help me with the kids when I am suffering from 2+ years worth of sleep deprivation?
> 
> ...


I hear you, I get it, he is a jerk. The incident proved that. 

So divorce him already...


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> PigglyWiggly said:
> 
> 
> > This, so much. My daughter told me she was GLAD that her mother and I divorced. She concluded, by talking to her friends at school, nobody wants to live in an unhappy home and many of her schoolmates wished their parents would divorce as well versus fight so much.
> ...


I didn't get the impression that Piggly was stating it was an either/or situation. He was just sharing his personal experience as it applied to him.



> It ignores other options like working together to fix the marriage and recreate a happy home with stable parentage and a loving, nurturing environment for the kids.


That is predicated on the assumption that both spouses are willing to explore that option and do the work. As we all know, that is not always the case. One person can't do it alone.



> That is a general statement, not necessarily applicable to the case in this thread.


I think it easily could be. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. And if "the worst" actually comes to pass, then it doesn't hurt to show that "the worst" really isn't as bad as people believe or make it out to be.



> It is worth noting only because far too many couples default far to easily to that false dilemma. For many, it's easier to just chuck it than to work on it.


I agree. But again, it takes two. If the OP feels like she's done everything she can and her husband isn't pulling his weight, then what other recourse does she have? Likewise, if her husband really tries to be better and nothing rekindles her desire for him, then what recourse does he have?



> The number of divorces _and _still miserably married far exceeds the number of couples with truly irreconcilable differences that would force one or the other of these bad situations with no other options.


Citation needed. (And I don't see how this is relevant to the OPs situation. If she can't stand the idea of having sex with her husband, that seems pretty darned irreconcilable to me.)


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Yes, that was my own anecdotal evidence. Kids KNOW that there are problems in their parent's marriage even if you think you've kept it hidden. They sense it whether you think they do or not. Listening to children in homes where parents stay together "for the kids" will show you that often you are doing more harm to them than good if the marriage is truly over.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

It has been 3 months since your last post.

How are things going for you guys?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I felt very uncomfortable reading this thread (and the other one).

It seems so obvious to me, at least from the writing and presentation of the situation, that the issue is simply falling out of love. Or perhaps never having been in love in the first place. 

If you do not really love your partner, everything seems a negative and a major turn off. Even having sex with your partner can feel like abuse.

It was painful to read because I’m sure many men’s worst fear, who have also experienced lack of desire form their wives, is a similar situation : wife falling out of love with her husband and hating his guts. But not having the guts to tell him the truth.

The problem is that the mind wants one thing, but the body (instinct, subconscious, the animal) completely rejects it. There is a big dissonance between the two.

Unfortunately the body usually ‘wins’ in those situations since you just can’t really help how you feel about someone, even if you try with all your being to make yourself love someone (because you think it’s the right think to do, rationally).

I’m just sorry you are both in this situation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I felt very uncomfortable reading this thread (and the other one).
> 
> It seems so obvious to me, at least from the writing and presentation of the situation, that the issue is simply falling out of love. Or perhaps never having been in love in the first place.
> 
> ...



Sadly, this is my marriage... if my wife told me that, I would have gone years ago. Instead, she kept quiet until the children became grown ups. No sex for me now. Because she can. Rather callous, if you ask me. She also depicting our sex life like a total nightmare for her... this is stuff that puts you in good mood after nearly 30 year... NOT!


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