# Misery Loves Company



## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

Hi All,

Long-time lurker here. My story is the same as that of many others. HD husband, LD wife. Late 40s; been married nearly 17 years. 3 great kids. To the rest of the world, my wife looks like the perfect wife: attractive, vivacious, talkative, lots of friends. She has put on a few extra pounds -- and has used this as an excuse for lack of sex many times over the years -- but honestly, I've never pushed her about it. I too have put on a few extra pounds, but am 6'1" and 230 -- certainly not "fat." I'm reasonably attractive, and I embrace my thinning hair with a very short crew cut. I'm intelligent and bookish, and work on Wall Street. Previously I owned a business (which was ultimately bought by another company), and have had some financial highs and lows, but am currently making a (very) healthy salary. I'm a good father and good husband. I'm a man's man, not effeminate or dominatable. I'm old-school in my ways; my handle is nothing about the physique of the cartoon show (or the show at all), but rather my persona. I'm a family guy. Would've had more kids had my wife also wanted them.

My situation isn't as bad as others. We regularly have "duty sex" once a week, generally Saturday or Sunday. A "quickie" as she calls it. Quickies can be great, when they are interspersed with non quickies. But there is zero passion on her part. The last time she "allowed" herself to have an orgasm during sex was maybe 2 years ago. I can count on one hand the number of times she has gone that far over the past 10 years. Oral for her is literally putting me in her mouth for 2-3 seconds as a minor form of lubrication pre-sex. But it's always "hurry, we don't have time" or "I've got x,y, and z to do". She typically pulls down her pants, bends over the bed, and because I'm already champing at the bit, I get the act completed in 2-3 minutes. This is ideal for her. She doesn't want to remove any clothing, doesn't like me touching her anywhere (keeps bra clasps and complains when I try to remove; and forget about me touching her "down there"). Optimal frequency for me is several times per week.

She gives virtually no physical affection. I'm always patting/slapping her butt, touching her; she does seek to hold my hand in the car, or when we're walking, but that's about it. She doesn't like to snuggle in our king-size bed anymore because she "gets too hot" (literally). While the robot sex happens weekly, and the occasional hand-holding continues, I feel like 

Whenever I attempt to talk about it, she blows up.

To be completely honest, I strayed early in our marriage (pre-kids), for the same reasons. I'm not justifying it -- what I did was wrong -- but her lack of attention to sex is what precipitated it. Early in our relationship (pre-marriage), like many others, there was lots of sex. Rightly or wrongly, we had sex on our first date. And neither of us were innocent virgins. Anyway, while that was difficult on our relationship, if it was a marriage ender, then that should've been brought up before innocent children were brought into the picture.

I for one don't think there's much I can do to change things. I work hard. I could do more around the house, but I'm not going to "work for sex." Sometimes I wonder if my wife isn't a closet lesbian. Yes, we have sex. But her complete lack of desire for me -- and I know what it feels like be desired -- makes me wonder. Early in our relationship, she actually subscribed to Playboy, and we used to look at it together and fantasize while having sex. Later, in days of better sex, she would want me to talk to her during sex, and it was always a fantasy with another woman. She even said once (after my indiscretion) that had that not happened, she probably would have invited another woman into our bed. Maybe so -- it's been such a long time now it's hard to imagine. But my point is that I highly doubt she is getting sex from another man (I've wondered at times about other women).

Anyway, there's much about this that has been rehashed ad nauseam on this site; I just thought I'd add my story. As the title says, "Misery loves company."

--FamilyGuy


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## BirdieToldMe (Jan 16, 2016)

Well, plenty of women can get turned on by looking at Playboy (or the simple notion of a threesome) without being a lesbian. I wouldn't think too much into the gay thing unless there's way more that you haven't mentioned. Of course your wife would drop the whole idea (not that she ever would have necessarily done it) of a threesome after you cheated. Duh. That whole fun fantasy was a ship that sailed far, far away after the affair.

Also, I don't think that you helping more around the house means that you would be working for sex - at all. I think it would be a very sweet and caring thing you could do for your wife (assuming she does 99% of the housework). Maybe if you go the extra mile in this regard, she'll (eventually) go the extra mile for you; however, I wouldn't do it with an immediate expectation for sex in return because that wouldn't work. I feel like I constantly mention this in every thread but have you read the Love Languages book? That could possibly really help in your situation.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Thanks for sharing your story. Is there anything you wanted to know/ask, or were you just looking for a place to vent? 

I hope it all works out for you man. I didn't see any thought of actually leaving so I assume you plan to stick it out until the end?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Here is a link to your thread from 2009...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/6951-question-sex-not-great-but-rest-relationship.html

It looks like things are about the same.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I really do not know what to say as I do not understand anyone who approaches sex the way your wife does.

Does your wife work outside the home or is she a SAHM?

How many hours a week do you and your wife spend together, just the two of you doing things that you both enjoy ?


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

Thanks for the responses -- and thanks EleGirl for the link. I'd forgotten about that! Yep, it's the same think 6 years later. Just had a blow-up with her over the phone. "Why are you so grumpy?" -- it's like stumbling across a starving man in the desert and slapping him on the wrist for not using perfect manners over food. To answer your question, she used to be a SAHM, but is now working as a real estate agent. She's great at it -- great salesperson. Everyone loves her. We don't spend much time during the week. I live near NYC and commute into the city for work. My typical day is up at 5:00a, back home 7:30p. Quick dinner, help the kids with some homework, a little reading. We don't have many date nights. Friday nights are typically family pizza and movie night. Weekends are typically full of kids' activities. We don't go out as a couple too often. Of course I'd like to do it more.

Birdie, thanks for the rec, I've heard of the Love Languages book, but have not read it.

Kingsfan, thanks, yeah, was really just venting.

Peacem, she very much knows about the infidelity. Her refrain now is "that's not the girl I am. If you want more sex, you should have divorced me then."


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

FamilyGuy said:


> *I'm a good father and good husband.*
> 
> Whenever I attempt to *talk about it*, she blows up.
> 
> To be completely honest, *I strayed early in our marriage *(pre-kids), for the same reasons. I'm not justifying it -- what I did was wrong -- *but her lack of attention to sex is what precipitated it. *Early in our relationship (pre-marriage), like many others, there was lots of sex. Rightly or wrongly, we had sex on our first date. And neither of us were innocent virgins. Anyway, while that was difficult on our relationship, if it was a marriage ender, then that should've been brought up before innocent children were brought into the picture.


WOW. Maybe you did not mean to say it that way, but IMO you are blaming your wife for your cheating. If there was a lack of attention before the marriage, why did you even marry her?

Yes, she may have some lingering resentment over the cheating. She may never get over it. Cheating has consequences. But your poor/wrong position seems to be that because she married you, all the pre-marriage problems - cheating - are to be swept under the rug and forgotten. 

You are a financial success, a great provider and a good dad. Your family has material wealth. But are you a good husband? You think so, but does your wife? Are you meeting her needs? Do you even know what her emotional needs are and do you know how you are meeting them or not meeting them? I doubt it.

Quit pestering her for sex until you figure out what she is not getting in this marriage. 

Try reading "His Needs Her Needs" and "The 5 Love Languages" if you really care about your wife. Forget about being a "good husband". Be a "BETTER husband". 

If YOU do not change and work on your marriage, you will be back at TAM in 2022 complaining about the sexless marriage, if your wife has not left you sooner. Read about walkaway wives.


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## BirdieToldMe (Jan 16, 2016)

FamilyGuy said:


> Her refrain now is "that's not the girl I am. If you want more sex, you should have divorced me then."


Well, that's extremely unhelpful of her. If you set up a date night (and maybe even a vacation that you were completely in charge of planning), would that help spark anything? 

Women don't like to feel like they're being forced into sex so you could maybe just do it from the angle of re-establishing your connection but then maybe she'll surprise you?!

She definitely seems to have issues regarding sex. Have either of you tried a sex therapist?


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

Thanks blue, appreciate the honesty and directness. I can understand the way you interpreted what I wrote, but no, I'm not blaming her. What I am (unabashedly) saying is that there was a reason for it happening. Yes, no one held a gun to my head. And yes, I'm 100% on board with "actions have consequences." That's why I said it was wrong. But I wouldn't have strayed had my desires/needs been met.

I believe I am a good husband. My wife keeps a "honey-do" list on my phone. It's not 100% complete -- it never will be! -- but I do work around the house. A lazy bum, I'm not. I am kind and considerate as a husband.

I frequently ask my wife if she's happy. The response is always yes. I have to take that at face value.

Thanks for your advice about being a "better" husband. There is no doubt I can be better not only at that, but at most everything.


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

Birdie, believe me, I've tried talking to her about sex. Calmly. Rationally. Sweetly. Playfully. Soberly. Intellectually. You name it. You've seen those videos of dropping Mentos candy into Coca-Cola? That's my wife on the topic of sex.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

What did you guys to do deal with your affair? Sounds like you just rugswept it so she may have lingering resentments over it.

Have you asked her if this is the case?

How would you have felt if you were were working a lot and not paying her much attention and she fvcked someone else? Would you understand because you weren't paying her enough attention?

From a woman's perspective when a guy cheats he is no longer her protector and one who has her back, so if she had vulnerability issues before that they are likely much worse. In the back of her mind she knows you can't be trusted.


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

We had some counseling; trust me, it wasn't just swept under the rug. I've already said, both in the original post and in a follow up, that what I did was wrong. And of course, I wouldn't have liked it had we been in opposite shoes. Trust me, I don't like it at all in the shoes I'm in. It's painful for me to admit, even in this online forum, using an alias. I'll also say it was ~15 years ago.

Also as I've said, I understand that actions have consequences. Perhaps these are my consequences, which is why my original post was titled the way it was. I'm not looking for a silver bullet; I don't think it exists. All I'd like to have is love from my wife -- physical love, romantic love, desirous, sexual love. If my actions have now made that impossible, then I'm laying in the bed I've made.

What I'd like is forgiveness. (Yes, I've asked for that too. But I see no sense in bringing it up again and again).


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## BirdieToldMe (Jan 16, 2016)

I won't pretend to have any personal experience on this topic but I'm getting the impression that you went to a handful of counseling sessions then quit going. I think you two definitely, absolutely have to go to more (lots?) of counseling with a different therapist. If she is unwilling, you will have to ask if she's willing for any change (or ask yourself if you're willing to live with your current situation). 

Even though it was ~15 years ago, it might not hurt to ask her directly if she's still angry with you regarding the affair. If she is, that should give you some major insight.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Your wife seems to put the needs of her children and herself far above yours. She sounds like a quality woman who is not easy to find therefore, her decision to stay married to a cheater must have been a pragmatic one. Financial support and children. 

What did you need so badly sexually that you felt justified to hurt and humiliate your wife? Was the random woman a good replacement and why didn't you divorce and marry the OW for sex? Was your wife worth so little to you that you could easily replace her for orgasms? 

I'm certain you are a good man who made a did a terrible thing to your wife. Being sorry is not words its action - repentance and atonement. A truly sorry person would not be able to justify the act no matter what. Your cheating set the tone for the marriage and your continued justification supports the outcome. You chose to be selfish and deceptive and to deeply wound this person you are now looking to for love. 

If you can still hold in your head, 15 years latter, that your infidelity was a reasonable choice based on "her lack of attention to sex" maybe you have not grown enough. Moreover, you should have no problem with your wife cheating you out of sex precipitated by her unmet needs. It goes both ways. Neither is excusable but you can't ask her to do something that you yourself cannot do. You can't blame her either. 

It's time that you told your wife that you were wrong to throw her over for orgasms from random women because you know she is special and irreplaceable. That is what you want from her, right? To feel that who you are and what you bring into her life is irreplaceable and you want her to love you just because you are you.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

FamilyGuy said:


> T But I wouldn't have strayed *had my desires/needs been met.
> *
> *I believe I am a good husband.* My wife keeps a "honey-do" list on my phone. It's not 100% complete -- it never will be! -- but I do work around the house. A lazy bum, I'm not. I am kind and considerate as a husband.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I get it that while it was 100% your choice to cheat, problems in a marriage often leave a person vulnerable to cheating. I get what you are saying about it.

However, what you have now could very well be fall out from the affair. Your wife might have never gotten beyond it. And so in the end, things got worse even if she decided to stay. Your marriage has been in a holding pattern for a long time. Basically, if something does not change it is highly unlikely that your marriage will make it in the long term if this continues. And I'm not just talking about the possibility of you divorcing your wife over the lack of sex/passion. There is also a high probability that one day your wife will leave.

From what you said the two of you spend almost no quality time together, just the two of you. The state of your marriage could be largely due to that. Not spending quality time together, just the two of you means that there is little to no non-sexual intimacy in your relationship. This will kill the desire for most women to have sex with their spouse. Basically it leads to losing sexual interest in their spouse and reduces sex to a chore.

Someone suggested the book "His Needs, Her Needs". There is another book that goes with it, "Love Busters". You need to read both of those books. In the best of all possible worlds, you will be able to get your wife to read them two and both of you do they work that the books say to do. But if you cannot get her to read the books and do the you, you can by yourself. 

It is completely possible to turn a marriage around by making unilateral changes. When you change, it will force your wife to change.

Then after reading those books, read 

Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence by Esther Perel


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How many hours a day or week does your wife work?


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

FamilyGuy said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Long-time lurker here. My story is the same as that of many others. HD husband, LD wife. Late 40s; been married nearly 17 years. 3 great kids. To the rest of the world, my wife looks like the perfect wife: attractive, vivacious, talkative, lots of friends.


Don't let the "ammo" fool you.

Late 40's.
Public perfection.
Photogenic family.
"3 great kids".

sorry ... where are you supposed to fit into this picture ("Dumdum" from Bewitched comes to mind....)

She has everything she wants in her life - she does need sex, her hormones are no longer telling her to reproduce, you are simply kept around to do chores and as a roommate who meets half the bills.... and that's why you actually spoke up because quietly you're asking yourself that and no longer able to ignore it.


as for your "indiscretion" that long gone I would assume (as your own needs/desires changed). If she's still hanging on to that hatchet, after all this time - it's not about you or the marriage, it's about having something she knows she can hurt you with. ...which you probably also emotional realise but overlook because you love her.


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

EleGirl, about 20-25 hours a week in her real estate job. Then of course there's the full-time mom job.


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

Spot, thanks for the support. That is what it feels like.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Not spending quality time together, just the two of you means that there is little to no non-sexual intimacy in your relationship. This will kill the desire for most women to have sex with their spouse.


And she initiates this non-sexual intimacy how? when?

[being dragged to family dinners and sitting while she yaks to friends doesn't count as "intimacy"]


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Someone who is cheated on has every right to disolve the marriage and move on.

BUT. If they decide to stay, they have an obligation to try to work things out and be loving spouse.
to stay only for the reason for financial security? Sorry, I dont. Buy it.
staying only for the kids? Then she should have made that clear and unambiguous.

after 15 years, it sounds like she's still carrying a giant size chip on her shoulder.

yes, you made your bed and you are now sleeping in it.

It also sounds to me that she holds much of the blame. Not for your cheating, but for puting the marriage on autopilot.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

spotthedeaddog said:


> And she initiates this non-sexual intimacy how? when?
> 
> [being dragged to family dinners and sitting while she yaks to friends doesn't count as "intimacy"]


You are trying to turn around what I said to make it sound as though my post is blaming FamilyGuy as the sole cause of the lack of time spent together and for the lack on non-sexual intimacy.

Now we could just turn this into a long wife bashing thread. But that will only serve to make things worse in the long run. My impression is that FamilyGuy would like to find a way to improve his marriage and get his needs met. 

Also keep in mind that we are hearing only one side of the story. Her side of things has as much validity as his. I am sure that his wife is also not getting a lot of her needs met.

It takes two to tango. Both he and his wife have a part in making this marriage the way it is today. 

But FamilyGuy is the person who is here. He is the only person that we can talk to and if at all possible help him turn his marriage around. If he wife were here, I'd tell her the same sort of thing.


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

Yes, EleGirl, I'd very much like to work things out. My own parents divorced, and I don't want my kids to live through that.

My wife does have a side to the story, but I'd imagine it closely mirrors what I said. I've laid my big fault out in the open -- an affair a long time ago, before kids. Not that "before kids" makes it any better; but as jorgegene said, the decision was made (by her) to stick around for that. She had every opportunity to leave had she wanted to.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

The only viable option I see is a good solid no bull$hit therapist for both of you.

doesn't matter that you had it once upon a time. You need it now.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

FamilyGuy said:


> Spot, thanks for the support. That is what it feels like.


Really? Spots post resonates with you. 

Do you think that she should be over the affair because it's been 15 yrs? I'll bet when she allows herself think to about it, she is as devastated now as she was the day she learned of it. I hope she doesn't share her feelings with her husband. Probably knows where that will get her. Your cheating will always be part of the relationship for your wife. You gave her the gift that keeps on giving. 

That stuff about being taken for granted is ridiculous. You get to keep a quality woman and have children after showing her what you are? At the time, she would have been better advised to walk away and start new with a man untainted with cheating. Just imagine if you married the OW or someone just like her. You are very fortunate to have a wife who has not favored you with cheating, yet, happy children, a good job and the respect of your family and community. 

Your wife is not the problem, neither is sex. You and your wife have created problems. I think you are getting back from your wife as much as she perceived that you are giving. If you overvalue what you contribute and undervalue what she does then it appears that you are operating at a deficit when, in actuality, you aren't. 

When you start at the very reasonable position that you are two unhappy people, then you may be able to move forwards. One of your problems seems to be that not getting enough sex out of your wife makes her value go down to zero. That's the attitude that you used to cheat. I would think that in 15 yrs, you learned that it may be grounds for an orderly, child-friendly divorce.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

FamilyGuy said:


> Yes, EleGirl, I'd very much like to work things out. My own parents divorced, and I don't want my kids to live through that.
> 
> My wife does have a side to the story, but I'd imagine it closely mirrors what I said. I've laid my big fault out in the open -- an affair a long time ago, before kids. Not that "before kids" makes it any better; but as jorgegene said, the decision was made (by her) to stick around for that. She had every opportunity to leave had she wanted to.


It is very telling that you do not know your wife's side of the story. The two of you are not talking about the important things.

Yes she made a decision to stay.

But that does not fix everything. There is clearly something missing for her just as there is something missing for you.

From what you have said, neither of you have been nurturing your marriage.

If you want to fix it, I gave you the first steps. I do agree that marriage counseling is in order too. But I would suggest that you read the books first so that you go into counseling iwith a good idea of your end game.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

OP, I'm not at all surprised that your wife 'blows up' whenever you bring up the topic of your unmet sexual needs. I'm not surprised that she doesn't 'allow herself to have orgasms'. I'm not surprised she only gives you duty sex. I'm not surprised she 'gives virtually no physical affection'. Plain and simple, your sex life with your wife is in shambles because of your previous infidelity. 

The impression I get from your posts is firstly, that your wife does not see sex as an intimate activity and your adultery confirmed her belief. Unless your affairs were also on an emotional level, your infidelity confirmed that sex has nothing to do with an intimate connection and everything to do with 'emptying your balls', for lack of a better term. The quickies once a week are her attempt to meet that requirement.
-----
Secondly you _are not_ remorseful about your transgression and you continue to blame your wife for the infidelity. You state that you are 'not trying to justify' or 'blame her' but then, in the same breath, state you 'wouldn't have strayed had [she] met your [sexual] desires/needs'. Below are your exact quotes.



FamilyGuy said:


> I'm not blaming her. What I am (unabashedly) saying is that *there was a reason for it happening. *Yes, no one held a gun to my head. And yes, I'm 100% on board with "actions have consequences." That's why I said it was wrong. *But I wouldn't have strayed had my desires/needs been met.*





FamilyGuy said:


> To be completely honest, I strayed early in our marriage (pre-kids), for the same reasons. *I'm not justifying it* -- what I did was wrong -- *but her lack of attention to sex is what precipitated it*.


No, you didn't cheat because your wife wasn't meeting your sexual needs. You cheated because you are a selfish, uncaring individual who chose the lazy way to deal with his unhappiness. Think about it, 15 years ago, instead of putting effort into fixing the sex issues in the marriage, you chose to stray.
-------
Thirdly, you blame your wife for choosing to stay married to you after your infidelity.



FamilyGuy said:


> Anyway, while that was difficult on our relationship, *if it was a marriage ender, then that should've been brought up before innocent children were brought into the picture*.


You had just as much of a choice in the matter. You could have ended the marriage, prior to having children, when the sexual mismatch issues were still not fixed.
-----
Finally, you describe yourself as a great father and husband mostly because you're financially stable. But if all a man needed to do to be considered a great husband was to bring home a paycheck, there'd be a lot less unhappy marriages out there. Trustworthiness, honesty, emotionally supportive, attentive, respectful, .....these are some of the other qualities that IMO men need in order to be considered 'good' husbands. Do you think your wife sees these qualities in you?


Look, your situation does not require a 'silver bullet' as you put it. Your situation requires you to take a long hard look in the mirror and identify your flaws. Comments like "I for one don't think there's much I can do to change things" and "I'm not going to work for sex", and your belief that your wife is a lesbian because she lacks desire for you, leads me to believe that you lack of humility and have an overwhelming sense of pride. Address those first by taking ownership of your cheating. Seek individual counseling to identify the character deficiencies that made it possible for you to cheat. Work on fixing those deficiencies. That's part of becoming a better husband. 

Once you have your side of the street cleaned up, then and only then will you start to see positive changes in your marriage....but it has to start with you.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

This is going to sound strange but you have to assign some perspectives to her in your mind and start acting accordingly.

*Perspective 1. If I give him duty sex, that's enough. *

You reinforce this every time you accept the hurry up attitude. Literally if she is providing bad sex or says hurry up in the middle of it or won't take her bra off or whatever, you have to matter of factly STOP having sex with her and tell her it's no fun for you.

You also have to meet her needs in the manner in which you want her to meet your sexual needs (enthusiastically). 

*Perspective 2. Sex is not important at our point in life, I'm too fat, sex is wrong. *

You need to tell her that for you a marriage is a sexual relationship and without sex there is no marriage, and that it's the only relationship in life that is meant to be sexual. It's one of the great joys of life, and is your greatest emotional need in your marriage. And here is where it gets hard: She needs to know that to keep her marriage and her family intact, she needs to choose to try to meet your needs. Currently she only thinks providing bad sex is required for this.

*Perspective 3. He's obsessed with sex and acts like a jerk. *

You need her to understand the male need for sex within a marriage, and you have to stop sexual innuendos, begging, acting pissy, displaying hurt about getting rejected.

*Perspective 4. I'm not getting my emotional needs met in marriage. *

What are your wife's emotional needs ? What brings a smile to her face and generates the feelings that you yourself get from sex? It's probably not your job or money. Do you spend enough time connecting with her to meet her needs? Do you meet them with the same enthusiasm you are expecting from her?



Regarding the affair, I agree that is not overly important. She may use it as an excuse though.


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## NorCalMan (Dec 14, 2011)

Hey, at least your getting "duty sex" ... a lot of us don't get any sex.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FamilyGuy said:


> Birdie, believe me, I've tried talking to her about sex. Calmly. Rationally. Sweetly. Playfully. Soberly. Intellectually. You name it. You've seen those videos of dropping Mentos candy into Coca-Cola? That's my wife on the topic of sex.


It is actually scientifically proven that if one becomes sexually irrational, that it can actually improve your chances of feeling pleasure. 

*PROBLEM:* Our minds are always comparing our life's situation with where we want things to be, which generally tends to be disappointing, frustrating, and a huge turn off.

So if you set out to purposely make things disappointing, frustrating, and a huge turn off, the brain is so used to failing that it will then allow one to fail at those things. The result is failing to be disappointed, failing to get frustrated, and failing to keep yourself turned off. 

*POSSIBLE SOLUTION: *Tell you wife that you do NOT want to have sex, but that you are extremely aroused. (This will confuse her) She will ask why, then just ask her to get naked and hug you but for her not to touch you. (This will confuse her) Tell her how beautiful she is and how aroused you are and that you value this more than sex, and that having sex will ruin the moment and that you just want to enjoy that and nothing more. Then much like a kitten that finds a shiny wiggling object irresistible, she will reach down and begin touching you to test how you react since she will be confused. Let her know nonverbally how good it feels. She will get to enjoy making you fail at NOT wanting to have sex to prove you were not being honest. She will enjoy this and so will you!

Cheers,
Badsanta


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FG,
Trying to be balanced here. Before kids - she made it come she didn't like sex. Very clear. You two wrestled over this theme in a sense. She won - because you can't make someone do something they don't really want to. 

Instead of acknowledging that you were incompatible, you had an affair. That was your last shot at - resolving this. Meaning that you could have insisted that either you two work towards compatibility or part ways. You had no children at that point in time. 

Instead, you made a choice to remain with someone who doesn't like sex. Or at least, doesn't like it with you. 

As to her current behavior. It's the same as it was pre affair. She has never much liked sex. And resents you trying to change her at this point in the game. Has nothing to do with the affair. 




FamilyGuy said:


> Yes, EleGirl, I'd very much like to work things out. My own parents divorced, and I don't want my kids to live through that.
> 
> My wife does have a side to the story, but I'd imagine it closely mirrors what I said. I've laid my big fault out in the open -- an affair a long time ago, before kids. Not that "before kids" makes it any better; but as jorgegene said, the decision was made (by her) to stick around for that. She had every opportunity to leave had she wanted to.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

FamilyGuy said:


> Yes, EleGirl, I'd very much like to work things out. My own parents divorced, and I don't want my kids to live through that.
> 
> My wife does have a side to the story, but I'd imagine it closely mirrors what I said. I've laid my big fault out in the open -- an affair a long time ago, before kids. Not that "before kids" makes it any better; but as jorgegene said, the decision was made (by her) to stick around for that. She had every opportunity to leave had she wanted to.


And you had every opportunity to not marry and knock out kids with someone whom you'd already cheated on and were not happy with sexually. 

Where is your part in all of that? Seems like you both made a poor choice in a partner.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

FamilyGuy said:


> Yes, EleGirl, I'd very much like to work things out. My own parents divorced, and I don't want my kids to live through that.
> 
> My wife does have a side to the story, but I'd imagine it closely mirrors what I said. I've laid my big fault out in the open -- an affair a long time ago, before kids. Not that "before kids" makes it any better; but as jorgegene said, the decision was made (by her) to stick around for that. She had every opportunity to leave had she wanted to.


But you can't think this way and at the same time expect to have a mutually satisfying relationship let alone sex life. 

Do you remember posting that when your wife said, "if you wanted more sex than you should have divorced her after you cheated" it upset you very much? But you are voicing the same mindset above. You are both saying - I don't care what you need, this is what you get and if you don't like it, I'll leave or cheat and or ignore you. 

It is time for your wife to trust and love you. Fifteen years of faithfulness, industry and good parenting counts for a great deal. She made the choice to stay with you, you have proven yourself loyal so there is no reason for her to deny herself and you a happy partnership. 

It's time for you to be humble, value what you have in your wife and let her know by your words and attitude. You made the choice to stay with her, she has proven herself to be far above the value of women who cheat with married men so you should treat her accordingly. You should have been doing that for the last 15 yrs, whenever she needed to hear it, to counteract the way you devalued her when you cheated. 

How are you going to negotiate an exchange of needs? It is a difficult thing that you ask of her. Look at how difficult it is for you to consider her needs as important as your own.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

She has told you she is happy. You need to take this as fact.

Issue is YOU are unhappy. Perhaps hard for you to feel entitled b/c of the affair?

You screwed up, but you both decided to make it work. Which means you are both obligated to meet each other's reasonable needs. Life goes on. You seem to be meeting her financial, engaged partner and security needs for the family.

Loving sex a few times a week is reasonable. If she disagrees, you have a choice to make.

Good luck.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Hicks said:


> This is going to sound strange but you have to assign some perspectives to her in your mind and start acting accordingly.
> 
> *Perspective 1. If I give him duty sex, that's enough. *
> 
> ...


I don't agree with the bolded. Don't act pissy or mean, definitely, but you should act hurt, because you are. If you kept forgetting to bring your wife flowers and she's made it clear she's always liked them, is she wrong to be upset? No, because she's had her feelings hurt. It's no different when the guy in this case gets repeatedly rejected sexually. 

If you have an emotion you should be permitted to display it appropriately. That would go for any situation commonly found within a marriage, sex should be no different.



NorCalMan said:


> Hey, at least your getting "duty sex" ... a lot of us don't get any sex.


I hate this attitude. It's like getting ****ty service at a store and someone saying 'well at least he served you. I'm still waiting.'

Both ****ty service and no service are wrong. Expect the best and give the best. Period.


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

Thanks everyone for your responses. It's helpful to get the different perspectives. Some I agree with, others I don't. I don't have time right now to address each post (I can see some of you already rolling your eyes: "see? He doesn't make time. He's just a lazy, selfish cheater."). I will make a handful of points.

1. The affair way back when was as equally emotional as it was sexual.

2. While I'm here for advice, and no one forced me to post, the idea that someone can "size me up" based on two admittedly similar posts over a six year period is patently ludicrous. I say that not just on my own behalf, but on behalf of everyone on this board. People are complex beings.

3. I heard in a sermon several years ago: "everyone is fighting a battle." For some, it's sexual; for others, emotional; for others, financial. For most, it's on several fronts. Everyone should respect that.

4. I came here with an open heart. I laid it all out, including the fact that I had an affair 15 years ago. I didn't have to share it. But I did, in the interest of truth and honesty. I don't have any other major skeletons in my closet. I'm not a drug addict. I obey the law. I give time and money to charity. I coach kids' sports. I am kind and courteous. I have hobbies. I learn every day. In a word, normal, good, and decent. How long must someone pay a penalty for an offense? What about forgiveness? If my situation is, in whole or in part, due to my 15-year-old transgressions, I'd argue that the sentence has been long enough. I've paid the penalty. But in my mind the opening for divorce was either then, or before kids. I do not want my kids to experience what I did.

5. After my initial post and the first few responses, I went to my wife and humbly, soberly, and honestly apologized (again) for my actions.

6. After everything, I still think my wife doesn't get it. I remain miserable. Yes, parts of my life are good, and I'm grateful for that. To the outside world, everyone thinks I'm okay, good even. But I feel unloved. And I don't feel that I deserve it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

And your wife's response when you apologized?

I'm still not understanding why you married and had kids with someone you'd already cheated on and were unhappy with sexually. 

You put everything on her for marrying you but it seems like you knew what you were getting and now your upset that you didn't get something else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

What is your wife's love language? What is she wanting to get from you, that she cannot provide herself? 

The fact that you bring home a paycheck and spend time with the kids is good. But I get the impression you don't know what REALLY gets your wife's motor running. Does she want more conversation, more cuddles, or more presents? Do you still do the "boyfriend stuff", so to speak?

Remember, she's not just a wife and mother... She is a woman. What you are getting from her now is the status quo. Even if you're not happy with it, it's been allowed for years, so it's become the norm in your home. If you want to get more, you need to give more. It's time to raise the bar for BOTH of you, not just for her.

Someone upthread suggested that you make a list of all the things you feel you do for your wife, then cross off everything you would do anyway if she wasn't around, and see what you're left with. I think this is brilliant advice, and should give you a bit of perspective.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

OpenWindows said:


> What is your wife's love language? What is she wanting to get from you, that she cannot provide herself?
> 
> The fact that you bring home a paycheck and spend time with the kids is good. But I get the impression you don't know what REALLY gets your wife's motor running. Does she want more conversation, more cuddles, or more presents? Do you still do the "boyfriend stuff", so to speak?
> 
> ...


This is a good point. It seems like after 17 years you're not that close to your wife and don't know her that well.

What have you guys done over the years to foster a close, personal relationship? I'd bet that if we asked your wife if she felt close to you her response would be no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

FamilyGuy said:


> I frequently ask my wife if she's happy. The response is always yes. I have to take that at face value.


Direct questions like this won't bring you real answer. Sure, what do you expect her to say? No, I am not happy. Then you keep asking more questions. 

Of course she will answer she is happy. Great money making husband, great kids, great life. No reason to complain, right? 

This is question for re-assurance on your part, because you do know that the answer to it is crucial to your marriage. And you know it is not as simple as "yes, honey, I am happy". You wold not be here, if this was the case.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

intheory said:


> Wow, so many times on TAM/CWI you hear the following tenets over and over again regarding infidelity:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Naw, I've seen it before when hb's aren't getting the sex they want. 

There's often a different set of standards where mens sex lives are concerned; I'd love to see the same guys responses to a woman who cheats because hubby isn't putting out or she just isn't getting her needs met.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theunguy (Jan 25, 2016)

If everyone cheated who wasn't getting enough sex there would be many more cheaters out there.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

intheory said:


> I'll confess, I did wonder if there was some sort of gender discrepancy going on in this thread.
> 
> I was trying to take the high road; or give the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> But what I bolded in your response above? Ya, I would predict a 251 page long thread filled with variations on "the filthy, skanky, whoor" etc. etc. etc.


Yep. I was wondering where those folks were, too.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I don't get the sense OP is trying to justify his cheating here. It looks to me that he's simply identifying the motivation behind it. Cheaters often have motivation other than just opportunity. I think we'd all be wise to acknowledge that cutting off sex and affection DOES lead to a lot of infidelity. It just does.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I don't get the sense OP is trying to justify his cheating here. It looks to me that he's simply identifying the motivation behind it. Cheaters often have motivation other than just opportunity. I think we'd all be wise to acknowledge that cutting off sex and affection DOES lead to a lot of infidelity. It just does.


It most certainly can. It's just that cheating wives don't seem to get the same consideration.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I don't get the sense OP is trying to justify his cheating here. It looks to me that he's simply identifying the motivation behind it. Cheaters often have motivation other than just opportunity. I think we'd all be wise to acknowledge that cutting off sex and affection DOES lead to a lot of infidelity. It just does.


I believe that. I think neglect does, too. 

Some of us would just like some acknowledgement of that, instead of, as lifeistooshort has said, seeing some sort of special dispensation given for men's sex lives.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> I don't get the sense OP is trying to justify his cheating here. It looks to me that he's simply identifying the motivation behind it. Cheaters often have motivation other than just opportunity. I think we'd all be wise to acknowledge that cutting off sex and affection DOES lead to a lot of infidelity. It just does.


I agree. Cutting off affection can lead to cheating, and cheating can lead to cutting off affection. Apparently this woman was never very affectionate, so it's hard to say which came first. Regardless, they will probably always have trust issues.

I don't think the affair is the biggest issue here. I think OP isn't clear on what his wife wants... so he is doing the things he feels she SHOULD want. He's pushing the wrong button (the same button he's been pushing for years), and wondering why it doesn't work.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> I agree. Cutting off affection can lead to cheating, and cheating can lead to cutting off affection. Apparently this woman was never very affectionate, so it's hard to say which came first. Regardless, they will probably always have trust issues.
> 
> *I don't think the affair is the biggest issue here. I think OP isn't clear on what his wife wants... so he is doing the things he feels she SHOULD want. He's pushing the wrong button (the same button he's been pushing for years), and wondering why it doesn't work.*




this


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

intheory said:


> But you agree that the cheating is all on him; and that there is never any excuse to cheat, right?
> 
> According to TAM wisdom: when there is a problem in the marriage, you have to give your spouse a chance to fix it. So, you approach them and communicate the problems you are having.
> 
> ...


I do agree that the cheating was on him and there was no excuse to cheat. I think FamilyGuy agrees with that as well.

My point was more that if we as spouses keep in mind that we need to meet our partners needs--whatever they are--the odds of finding ourselves as a betrayed spouse will drop.

No, it doesn't make it right when it happens. But I'd rather do what I can to keep my spouse happy so that it doesn't ever cross her mind. I'd rather be happy and married than alone on the moral high ground.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I do agree that the cheating was on him and there was no excuse to cheat. I think FamilyGuy agrees with that as well.
> 
> My point was more that if we as spouses keep in mind that we need to meet our partners needs--whatever they are--the odds of finding ourselves as a betrayed spouse will drop.
> 
> No, it doesn't make it right when it happens. But I'd rather do what I can to keep my spouse happy so that it doesn't ever cross her mind. I'd rather be happy and married than alone on the moral high ground.


I agree with this and I happen to be of the mindset, even though it's deeply unpopular on TAM, that if you don't treat your spouse well you shouldn't be shocked if they are vulnerable to someone else.

I hope that the on the next betrayed hb thread you're there to tell him that he should've been meeting his wife's needs.

Or the next cheating wife thread where hubby wasn't meeting her needs. 
Let's see what the response from the gallery is to such a statement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bkyln309 (Feb 1, 2015)

I dont think the issue here is cheating. I think its their schedules. He is gone for a long day and when he is home, they are doing things for the kids. Sounds like they need to scale back and get some couple time in minus the kids. I think she may not be feeling sexual towards him because he is being treated like a mom and not a wife. Date her, take her out, get a sitter, go for weekends minus the kids. Spend some time doing things she likes to do (not kid related). 

I think if you start meeting her emotional needs, she will respond sexually.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree with this and I happen to be of the mindset, even though it's deeply unpopular on TAM, that if you don't treat your spouse well you shouldn't be shocked if they are vulnerable to someone else.
> 
> I hope that the on the next betrayed hb thread you're there to tell him that he should've been meeting his wife's needs.
> 
> ...


I generally stay out of CWI, but if I see it I'll call it out.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Just because you point out a risk factor, doesn't mean you think it's justified or righteous. But to ignore a risk factor because the neglected spouse is only justified in leaving is naive and willfully ignorant. 

By the way almost every time a tam poster says the want to leave over sexual neglect they get blasted with posts about how wrong it is to give up over sex. Really the only tam approved approach is to stay and keep trying.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

I think it's usually best to try new things and see what works, rather than outright asking "Are you happy? Do you have unmet needs?"

It can be hard to verbalize a specific unmet need, especially if it's been unmet for a very long time. It just feels like a general sense that something is missing, until you suddenly get that "something" and it resounds deeply with you. It's hard to clearly identify something you've never really seen. 17 years is a long time, and people change... what worked in the beginning may not work now, and she might not be entirely sure what WILL work until she feels it.

Try new things. Go out more, talk more, buy some flowers, find a new hobby together. Experiment a bit, and see what makes her light up.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

FamilyGuy said:


> 1. The affair way back when was as equally emotional as it was sexual.
> 
> 2. While I'm here for advice, and no one forced me to post, the idea that someone can "size me up" based on two admittedly similar posts over a six year period is patently ludicrous. I say that not just on my own behalf, but on behalf of everyone on this board. People are complex beings.
> 
> ...


FG This is strange - you posted voluntarily asking generous strangers to take their time to help you. To that end, you revealed your situation in order to get responses that best suited you. Revealing the cheating benefited you. Since honesty is the default position in a civil society, you get no props for it. 

Have I missed anything? 

"*I came here with an open heart. I laid it all out, including the fact that I had an affair 15 years ago. I didn't have to share it. But I did, in the interest of truth and honesty." *

Are you asking the people who responded to your posts to thank you? It's customary for the person who ask for help to give thanks. 

*"I'm not a drug addict. I obey the law. I give time and money to charity. I coach kids' sports. I am kind and courteous. I have hobbies. I learn every day. In a word, normal, good, and decent." *
Join the club, you are obviously among the multitude of good citizens. Stand in line, we all deserve good things in return. 

*"But in my mind the opening for divorce was either then, or before kids. I do not want my kids to experience what I did." *
Unfortunately, your wife's mind and your may not be in accord. For her, the relationship after the cheating was totally different from the one you had before. You were no longer the man she fell in love with. A decision not to divorce is not the same as a decision to stay married. 

She may have decided to not divorce for pragmatic reason - invested a number of years into the relationship, wanted children sooner than latter and you had potential to be a good provider. She may not have decided that she wanted to stay married to the man you became when you cheated on her. 

What did you expect her to do when you told her you were sorry? Sincere regret is a personal experience. Its not really regret if you tell the person you hurt expecting them to reward with what you want. That's manipulation. 

What does your wife not get? Why are you miserable, what do you want?


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

Catherine, I'm afraid you're misinterpreting much of what I'm writing. I'm not asking for anything but advice from anyone. Nor was I expecting my wife to get "turned on" and have sex with me in exchange for another apology. I did that just because I thought it was a good thing to do at the time. I certainly don't need manipulation, or any other term, defined for me, but if it makes you feel better, go ahead.

You ask what I want. I have sex with my wife currently, just not as frequently or as passionately as I'd like. That, and more passion physically and generally, is what I'd like.

While I'm sure I can improve in many areas, I'm quite comfortable with who I am as a person. Yes, I terribly regret my past indiscretion. If the solution (ex going back and changing what happened, insofar as that is contributory) were blatantly obvious, I wouldn't be here writing this.


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

Thanks OpenWindows -- I've benefitted from your (and others') feedback.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Maybe this will be helpful. I ask from the point of view of a person who has had to learn to be expressive sexually. So it's based on my feelings.

How do you talk about the lack of passion? What do you want her to do or act and does she know? People don't usually act passionate when they don't feel it so she does not feel passionate. That's where you should start. Explore with her what will make her feel passion. Telling her that she is not passionate and you need that, sounds like an accusation or demand. You are sensitive to any hint of criticism so you can imagine how she would feel if you said that. 

BTW do you find that you are defensive IRL? When someone says something you don't like, do you get irritated. That's not unusual but if that is the case, you need to work on it. She is not likely to tell you what is wrong if you are sensitive to anything that is less than praise. What I said may be wrong so don't get upset because it's not you. But if you recognize some things that you need to work on, don't get upset, just do it. It's easier to see someone else problems and not your own. Believe me I know that. 

There are no strait forward answers and it is not hopeless. I suggested that you not lead with sex when you discuss this especially if it is the only time you actually give your undivided attention to discussion. It's more than sex. Talk about where you both are in the relationship.

I'm not accusing you of anything, I may be wrong.


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

Thanks Catherine for sharing that; it's always helpful to know where someone is coming from. I need to think of better ways to discuss it. I realize (fear, actually) that, as you say, people don't usually act passionate if they don't feel passionate. It bothers me that she's not (presently) passionate about me, at least sexually. It goes against my nature to "coerce" (for lack of a better term) someone to love me, or even like me. I'm of the mindset that while relationships can take work, if you're working too much, maybe you're in the wrong relationship. I don't like applying that to my situation, of course.


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

badsanta said:


> It is actually scientifically proven that if one becomes sexually irrational, that it can actually improve your chances of feeling pleasure.
> 
> *PROBLEM:* Our minds are always comparing our life's situation with where we want things to be, which generally tends to be disappointing, frustrating, and a huge turn off.
> 
> ...


Santa, I literally laughed out loud when I read this. I don't doubt that it would work! But I lack the self-control to try.


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

She didn't have a response when I apologized this time. Just silence. I left the room.

She has not always been like this; she did "pick things up a bit" before we had kids.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> Direct questions like this won't bring you real answer. Sure, what do you expect her to say? No, I am not happy. Then you keep asking more questions.
> 
> Of course she will answer she is happy. Great money making husband, great kids, great life. No reason to complain, right?
> 
> This is question for re-assurance on your part, because you do know that the answer to it is crucial to your marriage. And you know it is not as simple as "yes, honey, I am happy". You wold not be here, if this was the case.


I don't fully agree here. If it was me, what I would expect her to say is the truth. I came asking for the truth, give it to me. If you're not happy, tell me and tell me why, if you can. 

You can't shut down communication and just say everything's fine when it's not. It's your marriage too, be honest if you think things aren't going well and ideally have a plan in place to try and fix the issue(s). Pretending things are fine when they aren't are only masking the issue and against any advice you'd see given on TAM. 

The OP does know everything isn't fine and he did cause at least some of the issues, but it's also still on her to talk to him about them, not give a cookie cutter answer to make him go away. 



WorkingOnMe said:


> Just because you point out a risk factor, doesn't mean you think it's justified or righteous. But to ignore a risk factor because the neglected spouse is only justified in leaving is naive and willfully ignorant.
> 
> By the way almost every time a tam poster says the want to leave over sexual neglect they get blasted with posts about how wrong it is to give up over sex. Really the only tam approved approach is to stay and keep trying.


Not me. If anything I stayed well past when many on TAM were advising me to leave.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

kingsfan said:


> I don't fully agree here. If it was me, what I would expect her to say is the truth. I came asking for the truth, give it to me. If you're not happy, tell me and tell me why, if you can.
> 
> You can't shut down communication and just say everything's fine when it's not. It's your marriage too, be honest if you think things aren't going well and ideally have a plan in place to try and fix the issue(s). Pretending things are fine when they aren't are only masking the issue and against any advice you'd see given on TAM.
> 
> The OP does know everything isn't fine and he did cause at least some of the issues, but it's also still on her to talk to him about them, not give a cookie cutter answer to make him go away.


Maybe she IS happy, or at least happy enough. After all, she's not the one complaining about their sex life. She may be accepting of their marriage as it is. It's OP that's unhappy.

"Are you happy?" is a very vague and slightly unhelpful question. Everyone has a different standard for it. A person can be happy, and still want and need things. And it can feel like a loaded question, when you know your partner is expecting a certain answer... even more so if you know they'll react poorly to honesty.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

FamilyGuy said:


> You ask what I want. I have sex with my wife currently, just not as frequently or as passionately as I'd like. That, and more passion physically and generally, is what I'd like.
> 
> *While I'm sure I can improve in many areas, I'm quite comfortable with who I am as a person.* Yes, I terribly regret my past indiscretion. If the solution (ex going back and changing what happened, insofar as that is contributory) were blatantly obvious, I wouldn't be here writing this.





FamilyGuy said:


> It bothers me that she's not (presently) passionate about me, at least sexually. It goes against my nature to "coerce" (for lack of a better term) someone to love me, or even like me. I'm of the mindset that while relationships can take work, *if you're working too much, maybe you're in the wrong relationship*. I don't like applying that to my situation, of course.


You married someone with whom you were not sexually compatible. As such, you cannot force her to be more passionate. It's not a quality of her character. She is who she is, and like you, she's probably quite comfortable with the person she is. 

Your options are to divorce and find someone who is more sexually compatible, or work on the relationship even if that goes against your mindset. Everything else is status quo. 

What you are doing now is not working so try something else. If you wish your wife to be passionate about you, then you're going to have to change into the kind of man she wants to sexually desire. You are trying to build passion where, with few exceptions, there hasn't been any. This may sound unfair to you but it's fact. 

Repeat this over and over, "I can't change my wife. I can only change myself". Your changes can have the benefit of causing her to want to change but it all starts with you. If you feel you're at the best you'll be, then you're only option is divorce or learn to be happy in your current situation. 

Eta: As far as the adultery.....I'm going to share a story that may explain your wife's mindset. My dad cheated on my mother and although he was profusely apologetic, he always blamed her for his action. My mother was devastated. She felt she was deserving of the pain and heartache because, according to my dad, the affair was her fault that she wasn't meeting his needs meet at home. Over time she recognized that this wasn't true but he would not accept responsibility for the affair. Eventually she divorced him. They were great parents and stayed amicable even though my mom's resentment towards him never lessened . 

Approximately 13 years later my dad had a bad health scare that caused him to reevaluate his life. He had an epiphany. Showed up at my mother's front door wanting to talk. He didn't apologize to her for _having_ the affair. He apologized to her for _blaming_ her for the affair. He apologized for making her feel she was worthless and deserved the betrayal. He told her he was solely responsible for his actions. He used descriptive words to explain what a jerk he was to do such a thing to a wonderful woman like my mom. Long story short, the flood gates opened and my mother released her pent up resentment. She truly forgave him when he took ownership. 

They've been living together (not married, she won't do that again) for the last 10 years or so. They started dating again a few years after his epiphany. 

All this to say that you may think you're sorry for your infidelity but as long as you keep adding a 'but' after your apology, you really aren't. Your wife probably continues to feel like she deserved your poor treatment of her. Just saying.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OpenWindows said:


> . . . even more so if you know they'll react poorly to honesty.


I think this is true with anyone. A lot of problems could be solved if we could hear each other, and not respond defensively. But that takes great leadership, and maturity. And a willingness to agree to disagree.

OP, I totally agree with Lila that you have to inspire your wife's sexual response to you. She does not owe you passion. Some would argue a wife does not owe a husband availability, either, the vow "to hold" notwithstanding.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Her silence was an answer, and a loud one. Your wife has some major resentments toward you. 

I can't say if it's completely affair related, probably not, but that affair is still in her mind. 

Maybe it's a secondary issue in that it wouldn't be such an issue if you otherwise had a close relationship, but you don't, so it becomes a bigger issue. 

You are doing many great things and sound like a great person, but you don't have a close relationship with your wife. I think that is the root of your problem. 

You've been with your wife 17 years and don't seem to know what makes her tick. That is on you. 

Very few women are a asexual, most just need a man they feel passionate toward. That ain't you, and you need to find out why. 

Asking her if she's happy and professing your misery will not accomplish anything besides pushing her away. 

But she is making some minimal effort to provide sex, it's just to get you off. If she were completely detached I don't think you'd get anything.

You guys need some intensive counseling to help you guys develop a close relationship, or to find out if it's possible.

Do you think your wife would post here? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

Lila, thanks for sharing that. When I apologized, it was unreservedly.


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## FamilyGuy (Aug 2, 2009)

Thanks lifeistooshort. She does not like talking about sex. Last night we had sex (I got tired of waiting, and initiated, as I do 100% of the time. I have no problem initiating -- just don't like being rejected or whined at about it). Anyway, a very rare event happened right at the very end. She said she felt good. I replied that she didn't have an orgasm (thinking in my head that it had been 2-3 years since the last one). She said she knew, but didn't need to. Experience with me (assuming that is the totality of her experience presently, but I suppose one can't be 100% sure) bears that out. She extremely rarely has orgasms. I do not believe she masturbates (I've asked), nor do I believe she is getting it elsewhere. I think at the end of the day my wife is just very LD.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

FamilyGuy said:


> Thanks lifeistooshort. She does not like talking about sex. Last night we had sex (I got tired of waiting, and initiated, as I do 100% of the time. I have no problem initiating -- just don't like being rejected or whined at about it). Anyway, a very rare event happened right at the very end. She said she felt good. I replied that she didn't have an orgasm (thinking in my head that it had been 2-3 years since the last one). She said she knew, but didn't need to. Experience with me (assuming that is the totality of her experience presently, but I suppose one can't be 100% sure) bears that out. She extremely rarely has orgasms. I do not believe she masturbates (I've asked), nor do I believe she is getting it elsewhere. I think at the end of the day my wife is just very LD.


Not true, a large number of people believe this but a large number of people are wrong.

FG, you have a gold mine of problems that may have solutions - she rarely orgasms, does not masturbate, does not like talking about sex, her husband rejected her sexually by cheating. All of these things have had a profound effect on her sexuality. Rather that assuming she is LD and hopeless, why not explore these issues? 

I bring up the cheating again because it hit her at a vulnerable time in your developing sexual discovery. Patience and trust and a joint journey with someone who did not make her feel bad for being inhibited was probably what she needed. Her growth was possibly stunted by cheating but that does not mean you can't get going again with patience, understanding. No labeling or blame.

I'll tell you how it went with me. Early in my marriage, I was was inhibited and I felt shy because I thought I didn't know what to do. My husband is a fairly relaxed person and never acted dissatisfied, frustrated or angry. But he made it clear that he enjoyed sex and he would teach me how. It is a joint adventure not me pleasing him.

Does she orgasm from clitoral stimulation or PIV? Was there ever a time that she orgasmed more frequently. Do you think she knows anything about female sexuality? 

Don't default to the usual LD crap. Think outside of the box. Clear you head and take hope. It may not happen quickly. I think what happened last night was a small step forward. 

Don't be disappointed if you don't see it again next time. It will happen again if you remain warm to her even though she is not yet where she should be sexually. Work on some of the issues I mentioned.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Catherine: When your husband offered to take you on a journey of discovery, were you open to his suggestion? Did you make yourself available regularly, or did many trips get cancelled? Just curious.

I can imagine myself being open to a voyage of discovery if my wife is willing to accompany me on most of the trips. If I am constantly inviting her to embark on an adventure and she mostly tells me she wishes to stay safe and warm at home, then I am going to end up angry and frustrated. Not at her lack of skill or experience or knowledge but at her refusal to take the journey with me as my partner.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,

His wife was like this before children and before the affair. 

Maybe - he could have worked with her to address this way back when. The odds on getting her cooperation are very low after accepting this for so long. 




Catherine602 said:


> Not true, a large number of people believe this but a large number of people are wrong.
> 
> FG, you have a gold mine of problems that may have solutions - she rarely orgasms, does not masturbate, does not like talking about sex, her husband rejected her sexually by cheating. All of these things have had a profound effect on her sexuality. Rather that assuming she is LD and hopeless, why not explore these issues?
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Don't look too much into one instance of mutually agreeable interlude. Look more into using the opportunity to build a healthier relationship. 

Look at her behavior and your own feelings after sex. As we say in design, look for the meaning... If it's a meaningful experience then build on it.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Catherine,
> 
> His wife was like this before children and before the affair.
> 
> Maybe - he could have worked with her to address this way back when. The odds on getting her cooperation are very low after accepting this for so long.


I didn't explain well enough. I wanted to give him an alternate perspective based on my experience. Yes his wife was inhibited before all of the events you point out above. 

However, she may have grown if her husband was not focused on what he needed and more on what they both needed. She may have grown if he at lest attempted to make sex as enjoyable and pleasurable for her as it was for him. If indeed this is a fair characterization of the situation. 

He was not selfish, he did not know and he is strongly influenced by culture.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

More than likely she is perimenopausal or going thru menopause. Nothing you can do will help. Maybe if she took hormones that might help, but then you have to worry about increased chance of cancer.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I agree with Catherine. I too used to be inhibited and I would not have been able to move past it with a guy I didn't fully trust.

I do all kinds of stuff now that 15 years ago would've been unthinkable for me. When I met hubby I was too inhibited to O from oral, yet now I look forward to it and have blackout orgasms from it. If my hb had fvcked someone else while with me we wouldn't be where we are. 

Maybe they should've split after that, but it's spilled milk now. 

So whIle she may have been like this pre affair he may have wrecked his chance of her growing with him. 

Maybe it wouldn't have happened anyway but thanks to a skvnk who fvcks involved men he'll never know.

I doubt it's fixable now, but maybe with intense counseling they could try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Sorry Holding I didn't see your post. I don't have enough time to answer not but I will tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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