# Separate or Stay?



## Whatsright86 (Jun 24, 2017)

Hello all

My wife and I are both 30 years old. We dated for 5 years and have been married for about 1.5 years. We have no children.

Married life has been a rocky road for both of us. Prior to marriage, we have never lived together before so I think that’s why a lot of problems have surfaced. Our lifestyles and expectations seem a lot more different than we expected which created a lot of heated arguments, examples would be:
-	I am satisfied with staying home on a weekend; whereas she always wants to go out to places
-	I am ok with the bare basics in life; whereas she wants a flashier lifestyle (i.e. luxurious cars, going to formal balls)
-	I treat us both as equals; whereas she WANTS to treat me as superior because she wants a very capable husband in terms of career, appearance, etc. Unfortunately she sees me as inferior, especially when she compares me with some of her really capable friends. I can confidently say that my qualities are above average (this is backed up by family/friends from both sides), though I am not the best.

Intimacy has always been an issue. We did the whole deed many times before marriage, but the problem was that I could never finish inside her. This hurt both of us emotionally: she thinks she’s not attractive and I’m wondering if I’m attracted to her. Regardless we still proceeded to marriage, hoping it would get fixed naturally. We haven’t been intimate lately and I think that’s a big source of the issue. Both her and I feel stressed when we initiate because we both know we’ll feel terrible if I don’t finish. And I find it even more difficult to finish under this stress…

She’s moved out for the past few days to live with her family to get some time alone. At night, I really miss having her sleeping by my side. During the day, I really miss coming home and seeing her. I care for her very much.

My wife, on the other hand, seems to also care for me very much. However, my instincts tell me that her attraction level to me has decreased quite a bit since we first met. She’s the faithful type and I do not think she’s having an affair.

Lately, we’ve been getting into serious discussions on separating, even to the point of asking “ok, let’s say IF we really separate, what’s going to happen to this home? Do we sell it and split the proceeds?”.

I’m really torn on what to do. The logical part of me is telling me to call it quits because it's not working out. The emotional part of me is telling me to stay and work this out because I really want her by my side and all marriages have their own problems to be dealt with. I believe that even if it comes to a separation, I will be really hurt, but I will heal given time.

My WORST fear now is calling it quits when this marriage can actually be saved. I really don’t want to jump the gun as I have a history of doing so (passing judgements/conclusions too soon). A divorce is legally described as an irretrievable breakdown of marriage. How do you decide if the breakdown is indeed irretrievable?

Thanks for any help.


----------



## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

Have you thought of seeing a sex therapist? have you gone to the doctor to get checked out?

It's harder to fix a marriage when you are not living together, are you wanting to save the marriage or do you really want to move?

You could just be incompatible,in which case I would move on so you both can find someone perfect for you.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Whatsright86 said:


> Hello all
> 
> My wife and I are both 30 years old. We dated for 5 years and have been married for about 1.5 years. We have no children.
> 
> ...


This is very easy to fix. It’s called compromise. That means that sometimes you both do what she wants to do. And sometimes you both do what you want to do.

When you dated your wife, did you both just sit around the house on weekend? Or did you two go out places? I’ll bet that you went out places. So then you marry and now you want to say home. That’s a bait and switch. She fell for you because romanced her and dated her. You don’t stop dating and romancing just because you get married. That’s how you kill a marriage.

Get the books “Love Busters” and “His Needs, Her Needs”. Read them. Ask her to read them and then you both do what they say to do.


Whatsright86 said:


> -	I treat us both as equals; whereas she WANTS to treat me as superior because she wants a very capable husband in terms of career, appearance, etc. Unfortunately she sees me as inferior, especially when she compares me with some of her really capable friends. I can confidently say that my qualities are above average (this is backed up by family/friends from both sides), though I am not the best.


You will need to explain this more because it’s not clear at all what this means. What about you does she feel is ‘inferior’? How do you know she thinks you are inferior? What do you do, or not do, that she think is inferior?


Whatsright86 said:


> Intimacy has always been an issue. We did the whole deed many times before marriage, but the problem was that I could never finish inside her. This hurt both of us emotionally: she thinks she’s not attractive and I’m wondering if I’m attracted to her. Regardless we still proceeded to marriage, hoping it would get fixed naturally. We haven’t been intimate lately and I think that’s a big source of the issue. Both her and I feel stressed when we initiate because we both know we’ll feel terrible if I don’t finish. And I find it even more difficult to finish under this stress…


Well, yea, I can see why she would feel like you are not attracted to her. Have you had sex with other women in the past? Did you have this problem with other women?

This is a very serious problem When you have a serious problem you need to get the help you need to fix it. That means that you do to see a doctor (or doctors), get tests done, and find out why you cannot finish. If it turns out to be phycological you go to a sex therapist to fix it.

You have a serious sexual problem. And you have cared so little about it that you have done nothing to figure it out and fix it. So, yea, it looks like you do not care about your sex life with her. Getting married does not fix sex problems.


Whatsright86 said:


> She’s moved out for the past few days to live with her family to get some time alone. At night, I really miss having her sleeping by my side. During the day, I really miss coming home and seeing her. I care for her very much.
> 
> My wife, on the other hand, seems to also care for me very much. However, my instincts tell me that her attraction level to me has decreased quite a bit since we first met. She’s the faithful type and I do not think she’s having an affair.


ok


Whatsright86 said:


> Lately, we’ve been getting into serious discussions on separating, even to the point of asking “ok, let’s say IF we really separate, what’s going to happen to this home? Do we sell it and split the proceeds?”.


On the surface, since you seem to not want to date and romance your wife and you do not care enough about your sex life to seek the help you need to fix it, it does sound like the two of you need to divorce.

However, there is a chance that the two of you can fix this if you are willing to do things like read the books I suggested and both of you work through them. You are willing to date and romance your wife. And you are willing to get the medical and counseling/therapist help you need to get beyond your sexual issues. But this will only work if both of you are willing to put 110 % in.


Whatsright86 said:


> I’m really torn on what to do. The logical part of me is telling me to call it quits because it's not working out. The emotional part of me is telling me to stay and work this out because I really want her by my side and all marriages have their own problems to be dealt with. I believe that even if it comes to a separation, I will be really hurt, but I will heal given time.
> 
> My WORST fear now is calling it quits when this marriage can actually be saved. I really don’t want to jump the gun as I have a history of doing so (passing judgements/conclusions too soon). A divorce is legally described as an irretrievable breakdown of marriage. How do you decide if the breakdown is indeed irretrievable?
> 
> Thanks for any help.


What does she want to do?


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I think you two should consult with a good marriage therapist and sex therapist. I would try to find a MC who works closely with a sex therapist. While sex is a significant problem area for you, there are other areas which need work but which a sex therapist wouldn't address.

Having such problems right at the beginning of a marriage is not a good sign, but .... you are young and have a good chance of learning through MC and sex therapy. I value marriage and hope you can make it work, but it is important that you two both feel happy, relaxed, and fulfilled in marriage. It could be that though you both love and like each other, you might just be a bad match for marriage. So if that is the case, it is best to call it off.

So, try the MC/ST and give it perhaps 6 months. See if things are improving. If after 6+ months if you aren't both feeling happy about it, you can feel confident you have made a solid effort to work things out, and breaking off the marriage will be the right thing to do.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

It doesnt sound like you guys have done much to try and fix things. 

In your opinion, what is the reason you are not able to finish inside her? Do you ever finish at all? Do you lose it before you can? Did you have this issues with previous partners? Is your wife the only one you have ever been with? I'm asking all of this because it sounds like something you really need to get to the bottom of and work on, otherwise you will probably have the same issues with any future partners. Unless your wife specifically is doing something that is affecting you, that is. Does she humiliate you or put you down?

It sounds like you two should get into therapy, the kind that Thor was suggesting above, before you just call it quits.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*If marriage counseling and/or voluntary participative sex therapy fail to work in your case, then there may not be any hope left!*


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

How sad that you are thinking of giving up so soon. All marriages have rocky times, especially in the beginning. Many of your issues can be solved by compromise and communication. So she wants to go out at weekends and you want to stay in. Easy, you go out one day and stay in the other. 

As for the sex, are you a porn user? If you then stop, it often badly affects the sex life and can cause men not to be able to have normal sex. 

I would suggest some good marriage counseling for a time. Separating isn't the answer, nor is taking about divorce, marriage is a serious thing and you made lifelong promises to each other, yet already you are thinking of breaking them.


----------



## Whatsright86 (Jun 24, 2017)

Thank you everyone for your input.

I have only had sex with my wife, so I cannot say if this is just an issue with her or with the whole thing in general. It’s a bit tricky because obviously I don’t want to go out and check if it’s just an issue with her and not other women (i.e. hooking up with someone else and see if I can finish).

Diana7, I did think about why this is happening. I attribute it to doing my deed alone with porn up until when I was 23. I could always finish alone. Then I did it the first time with my wife and couldn’t finish. To be honest, it felt better when I did it myself. I researched online and found a few articles on describing the side effects of using porn to do the deed, with one being getting accustomed to the hand instead of the actual thing. The hand certainly feels better and there’s no way the real thing can have as tight of a grip as it. I figured I literally desensitized my manhood with my porn methods so I have discontinued it for the past 3 months or so. The last attempt my wife and I did, I was able to finish in her but I had to use my hand for like 15 seconds. It wasn’t the best finish but certainly an improvement at least.

EleGirl, you are correct that I have not dated her as often as before. If even you sensed it through an online post, I can only imagine how slighted my wife may be feeling now. A friend of mine also mentioned that so it’s good to have consistent feedback like this.

About thinking that I am inferior, it usually falls into two cases:
-	I make a mistake and she goes all over me on it, saying how I should be smart enough not to make a mistake like this. Granted, some of my mistakes were pretty stupid. I appreciate her correcting me, but it’s the WAY she says and does it that annoys me. I have told her that but it seems to fall on deaf ears. I’m usually careful with my words and when I correct her, I do it gently. Once I corrected her harshly on purpose using a similar tone she used to me, and her response was “that’s good, you should be better than me and I like it when you criticize me so harshly” with a half sarcastic manner.
-	She keeps taking the best characteristics of her male friends/acquaintances and complains how I’m not like that. I’ve told her several times that I’m not perfect. I always try to improve but to set the right expectations, I told her I would never have the combined characteristics of her more “superior” friends/acquaintances. An example would be how she wants me to gain more weight “like her friend”. I’m naturally quite lean, but definitely not the fragile type. Another one would be how she wants a car “like her colleague”. I live in a populated city in Asia where only wealthy people or those who need a car for their jobs will actually buy one. We don’t fall into either category.

My wife and I will be having a serious talk on the next steps later tonight, will keep you all posted.

Thanks again.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

[


Whatsright86 said:


> I have only had sex with my wife, so I cannot say if this is just an issue with her or with the whole thing in general. It’s a bit tricky because obviously I don’t want to go out and check if it’s just an issue with her and not other women (i.e. hooking up with someone else and see if I can finish).


From what you describe below, you would be the same with any woman. The problem is, as you describe, that you have become used to self-satisfying with porn. No woman can meet your sexual needs until you stay away from porn and masturbation for months.


Whatsright86 said:


> Diana7, I did think about why this is happening. I attribute it to doing my deed alone with porn up until when I was 23. I could always finish alone. Then I did it the first time with my wife and couldn’t finish. To be honest, it felt better when I did it myself. I researched online and found a few articles on describing the side effects of using porn to do the deed, with one being getting accustomed to the hand instead of the actual thing. The hand certainly feels better and there’s no way the real thing can have as tight of a grip as it. I figured I literally desensitized my manhood with my porn methods so I have discontinued it for the past 3 months or so. The last attempt my wife and I did, I was able to finish in her but I had to use my hand for like 15 seconds. It wasn’t the best finish but certainly an improvement at least.


There is a lot of info on the internet about how to stop using porn and get to the point where you are able to have sex all the way through with a woman. It does entail not using porn ever again. 
How is the rest of your love making? Do you have plenty of foreplay? Does your wife have orgasms every time you have sex with her? Basically are you taking care of her?


Whatsright86 said:


> EleGirl, you are correct that I have not dated her as often as before. If even you sensed it through an online post, I can only imagine how slighted my wife may be feeling now. A friend of mine also mentioned that so it’s good to have consistent feedback like this.


You need to start dating her again. Below I suggest a book for you to read. The book talks about why this is so important.


Whatsright86 said:


> About thinking that I am inferior, it usually falls into two cases:
> -	I make a mistake and she goes all over me on it, saying how I should be smart enough not to make a mistake like this. Granted, some of my mistakes were pretty stupid. I appreciate her correcting me, but it’s the WAY she says and does it that annoys me. I have told her that but it seems to fall on deaf ears. I’m usually careful with my words and when I correct her, I do it gently. Once I corrected her harshly on purpose using a similar tone she used to me, and her response was “that’s good, you should be better than me and I like it when you criticize me so harshly” with a half sarcastic manner.


Could you please be more specific here? Give us examples of 3 things that you did that she considered mistakes so who criticized you like this?


Whatsright86 said:


> -	She keeps taking the best characteristics of her male friends/acquaintances and complains how I’m not like that. I’ve told her several times that I’m not perfect. I always try to improve but to set the right expectations, I told her I would never have the combined characteristics of her more “superior” friends/acquaintances. An example would be how she wants me to gain more weight “like her friend”. I’m naturally quite lean, but definitely not the fragile type. Another one would be how she wants a car “like her colleague”. I live in a populated city in Asia where only wealthy people or those who need a car for their jobs will actually buy one. We don’t fall into either category.


Does your wife work? These examples are ridiculous. She sounds very immature. Does she say that you are ‘inferior’ because of these? Her picking on you and telling you that you are inferior because of your natural, healthy body type is a form of emotional abuse. Her friends are not ‘superior’, they are simply different.

With these sorts of examples, I’m not sure you should continue this marriage. Why would you even want to be with someone who treats you like this? Why are you trying to change to meet these sorts of nit-picking insults of who you are?

The bit about the car is also ridiculous because it is not the norm in your society.


Whatsright86 said:


> My wife and I will be having a serious talk on the next steps later tonight, will keep you all posted.


You might want to get the books “Love Busters” and “His Needs, Her Needs”. You would both need to read them and do the work that they say to do. They would help the two of you learn to talk and negotiate things.

For example, her insulting you and telling you that you are inferior because she thinks you should gain weight is called a ‘love buster’. A love buster is something that a spouse does that over time kills your love for them. With the way, your wife talks about you being inferior, insults you, wants you to be like someone else—those are very bad love busters. They will kill your love for her. Over time you will grow to really dislike her because of this. She has to stop it.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Whatsright86 said:


> Thank you everyone for your input.
> 
> I have only had sex with my wife, so I cannot say if this is just an issue with her or with the whole thing in general. It’s a bit tricky because obviously I don’t want to go out and check if it’s just an issue with her and not other women (i.e. hooking up with someone else and see if I can finish).
> 
> ...


I am so pleased that you have given up the porn, as you say things are beginning to improve in that area now, and I am sure that will carry on improving. Masturbating to porn is deadly for a normal sex life with a real life partner.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So I see a few things. First, you need more education on how to have sex. It's not just touch her, put it in, bam you're done. A good evening in bed should involve kissing, hugging, rubbing, music, candles, oils, more kissing, pleasing each other, taking it slow...basically NOTHING like what you've seen in porn. Do some research. We can help more with that. 

You seemed to think that once you get married, you just get to literally throw the shoes off and live comfortably. YOUR version of comfortably. Which probable means sitting on a couch, watching tv, surfing the web. But women need more. One of nearly all women's top needs is conversation. Like going on walks, sailing a boat, having a picnic...NO electronics. Just you and her. 

Thirdly, she is telling you that you are not 'man enough' for her. What that means is, as with most women, she wants a man who provides for her, protects her (physically, financially), and makes her feel safe. I don't know what your normal demeanor is, but I'm guessing you're pretty laid back, like you wouldn't normally step in and 'defend her honor' in a conflict situation. But she's telling you that's what she wants. And the bad thing is, when a woman feels that way, she very often seeks out OTHER men who ARE strong - strong enough to pursue a married woman. As odd as that sounds, she might be attracted to such a man, even knowing it's wrong, because he goes and gets what he wants. I'd listen very carefully to her when she discusses these 'other men' she knows.

To that end, I'll recommend this book to read first: No More Mr Nice Guy.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Has your wife been with other men? Did she sleep with or date these other men she compares you to?


----------



## Whatsright86 (Jun 24, 2017)

Thanks again for everyone’s responses.

EleGirl, 3 examples of my mistakes would be:
-	We planned to go to a new restaurant for lunch. I called the restaurant ahead of time to ask for directions and the staff told me “take the subway to Station A, then you can go left at Exit B. It will be within a few minutes of walking distance.” So we took the subway to Station A. I saw the sign “Exit B” and turned left, which led us OUTSIDE of the station. In the end, this was wrong because the sign was actually referring to heading left WITHIN the station. My wife was a bit peeved that I wasn’t able to find the correct path the first time. We ended up walking a bit of a round-about and took about 10 more minutes to get to the restaurant.
-	We were at an indoor shotgun range for the first time, with a tour guide in another country. I went to try the shotgun. I held the shotgun as the tour guide suggested and pulled the trigger. I didn’t expect such large recoil. The shock from pulling the trigger broke my stance and I took 2 steps back. The same thing happened for my next 2 shots. The tour guide smirked a bit and said something like “Wow I don’t usually see men getting pushed back like that from shooting a shotgun”. My wife was angry at me because it made me look weak. I explained to her that I didn’t use my full strength to hold the gun as I purposely used the backsteps to deflect the recoil. I practice a form of Chinese martial arts and have picked up a habit of not meeting force directly so that’s probably why I didn’t see the need to “stay firm”. In the end we compared our results and my shot guns hit the target pretty much dead on. I told her all this but in the end she still thought I was weak. In hindsight I should have just held it firm once just to show I could do it (which I honestly think I could).
-	We were having a relaxing stroll around town. My wife says she’s thirsty and wants to buy some water from the 711 convenience store (711 is a famous franchise in our city). So while we kept walking around, I kept my eyes on the closest 711. We walked past a small drugstore, which my wife spots that it was selling water and we went in to buy it. She wasn’t happy that she spot it before me, and thought that my thinking was too limited in only searching for 711s.

Yes, my wife works but she puts on a different face when facing others. She admits this herself.

I did a quick search at our bookstores for “His Needs Her Needs” but haven’t found it yet. I googled some summaries of it and I agree it would be useful to read it. I’ll keep trying to get a hold of a copy.

turnera, you’re right that I don’t put enough effort in dating her anymore. That’s one of the reasons why I still want to give this marriage a shot. It’s one thing to separate due to true incompatibility, but I really don’t want to separate due to a lack of effort from my side.

Thor, she had a boyfriend for a few months before me but nothing serious. I’m the first man she has been intimate with. The people who she compares me to aren’t always her friends. They could be her acquaintances’ spouses. Once, she told me she was a bit envious of her friend having a tall and handsome boyfriend, who seemed to really have his life together based on his Facebook. I’ve mentioned to her that we always see the best sides if we just look on Facebook or even through casual chat. While it may be true that man is perfect in every way, there’s probably something about him that’s not as good as you think. I'm sure that my wife and I appear much better in other people's eyes as well, compared to what we are actually going through. She agrees but I can see that it still bothers her.

An update from my side:
We had our talk last night for a few hours. She told me that she actually had all these thoughts before we married. She says she should have told me all this so we could reconsider before actually tying the knot. Now she feels really tired as these issues have lingered for so long already. She feels stressful because she’s caught in a dilemma: everyone in her circle says how good of a husband I am because I treat her well, but due to the intimacy/inferior issue she’s considering leaving this relationship. She feels very guilty about leaving. 

The two main issues were (a) me not being able to finish the intimacy within her and (b) me not being “superior” to her. She agreed that if one of these two issues were solved, we would be able to stay together. But as of now, I feel she wants out more than staying together.

This morning we went to a Marriage Counsel (MC). We told the staff (Miss Lau) of our situation. Miss Lau just listened attentively without taking sides and filed a case for us. She will assign a social helper to work on our case and we should expect him/her to contact us in 2 weeks. I really hope we get it sooner than 2 weeks.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Read No More Mr Nice Guy before you read HNHN. You can get it online.


----------



## Whatsright86 (Jun 24, 2017)

Hi all

So things have not been improving. She still feels really guilty for wanting to leave, as our lives are stable and everything is "going great" in terms of career and finance wise. She has repeatedly said that she may regret leaving someone who cares for her so much.

Previously she stayed at her mom's place for 2 weeks alone to sort things out. I don't think she used that period to cheat or anything as her parents told me she just stayed at home after work. After she returned, things improved but went sour again.

At this point, I'm thinking that she just needs some REAL time alone to see what's outside as she might be under the whole "other side is always greener" syndrome. I'm thinking of giving both of us a month of real time alone then come to a conclusion afterwards. By real time, I mean living separately as singles. Both of us would be able to do whatever, which includes dating other people. We would also have no contact with each other during this time. My thought is that either:
1) She ends up much happier being single, in which case we will separate, or
2) She wants to stay together, in which case we will stay together (assuming I still want to stay together after this time off)

What do you all think about this? Thanks for any help...


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Whatsright86 said:


> I did a quick search at our bookstores for “His Needs Her Needs” but haven’t found it yet. I googled some summaries of it and I agree it would be useful to read it. I’ll keep trying to get a hold of a copy.


There are links to the looks “Love Busters” and “His Needs, Her Needs” in my signature block below. They are also sold on amazon.com


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Whatsright86 said:


> Thanks again for everyone’s responses.
> 
> EleGirl, 3 examples of my mistakes would be:
> -	We planned to go to a new restaurant for lunch. I called the restaurant ahead of time to ask for directions and the staff told me “take the subway to Station A, then you can go left at Exit B. It will be within a few minutes of walking distance.” So we took the subway to Station A. I saw the sign “Exit B” and turned left, which led us OUTSIDE of the station. In the end, this was wrong because the sign was actually referring to heading left WITHIN the station. My wife was a bit peeved that I wasn’t able to find the correct path the first time. We ended up walking a bit of a round-about and took about 10 more minutes to get to the restaurant.
> ...


These things that you describe here are not good at all. Your wife is being abusive basically. She seems to need to pick at you, put you down and insult you. There is no valid reason for her reaction to you in any of these examples. It's called verbal/emotional abuse.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Whatsright86 said:


> Hi all
> 
> So things have not been improving. She still feels really guilty for wanting to leave, as our lives are stable and everything is "going great" in terms of career and finance wise. She has repeatedly said that she may regret leaving someone who cares for her so much.
> 
> ...


Have you already been separated for a while with her at her parent's house?

How will this separation happen? Will she live with her parents? Where will you live? What is the custody arrangement with your children?

I'm not sure if one month is enough time to figure anything out. So a longer separation might make sense.. with either a divorce filed or a legal separation so that you both know the rules that you are living under.

For example how will finances be handled? Who pays what bills? Who gets then children when?


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> These things that you describe here are not good at all. Your wife is being abusive basically. She seems to need to pick at you, put you down and insult you. There is no valid reason for her reaction to you in any of these examples. It's called verbal/emotional abuse.


OP,

Many people are telling you things that can be summarized thusly:

You don't have sufficient self-love for a relationship like this.

The sun, moon, and stars all rise and set with HER

That's not where she wants to be - and it's not how you should see her.

I would get some recommendations for a good IC and start immediately - 2 sessions per week.

Just forget about her for now.

(BTW, I realize how impossible that seems at the moment. Many of us have been right where you are)

Abusive people often stop abusing their partners when there is no payoff in the abuse.

Right now, all your explaining and excuse-making merely draws a larger target on you - as the epicenter of "all of her problems'


----------

