# Slipping Into Misogyny?



## ArthurGPym

So I recently went through a very difficult breakup with a woman who I thought loved me. Here is the link to that post: 

Am I Overreacting?

Over the past few weeks my opinion of women, American women... California women to be exact, has gone through the basement. I don't trust women anymore frankly, and every time a lady treats me kindly I look at her with suspicion. Every action from a woman I encounter smacks of manipulation. Why am I felling this way? I was never this way before my last relationship fiasco. I always looked forward to encounters with the opposite sex. No I avoid them. 

I am scared I am turning into that grumpy old unf*ckable guy who lives at the end of the street. Any other guys here who find themselves in this predicament? I don't want to be this guy. I like people. I WAS very sociable. But now? I find myself becoming more and more withdrawn. I don't watch TV anymore because everything on TV is about grrrrl power and female "empowerment". I get messages on the media every day about how toxic I am just because I am male and white. 

I'm sick of it. Sorry for the rant. Matt Matt can lock the thread if it is too disruptive.


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## Al_Bundy

I think what you are going through is natural. Some liken it to the phases of grieving. You can look up "red pill rage" too. Not turning this into a RP thread, but I don't know what else to call it. You got burned, a lot of the things you believed got proven wrong. It's a natural reaction to getting put through the ringer.

I think the fact you are aware of the anger and you don't want it to consume is a good sign that you won't feel like this forever. However you also will never go back to that state of ignorant bliss, nor should you want to. You will probably end up with a more balanced view of the sexes, more realistic. 

On a practical side, I don't watch much television. I filter my content to things that I'm interested in. I would rather listen to interviews on youtube (business/money/etc) than to watch some woke show. I take courses to expand my skill sets, both business and personal. I work on my fitness. 

Focus on yourself, build strong boundaries, live on your terms and standards.


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## Livvie

Maybe it's where you live. 

Where I live, most people are very down to earth.

Maybe you need to screen the women you are meeting harder/better. Stay away from the entitled *****es. There are a lot of NOT entitled, nice honest women out there.

Ditch TV and just watch what you want on Netflix, Hulu, etc. that doesn't portray the entitled, manipulate, ***** type.


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## Al_Bundy

Livvie said:


> Maybe it's where you live.
> 
> Where I live, most people are very down to earth.
> 
> Maybe you need to screen the women you are meeting harder/better. Stay away from the entitled *****es. There are a lot of NOT entitled, nice honest women out there.
> 
> Ditch TV and just watch what you want on Netflix, Hulu, etc. that doesn't portray the entitled, manipulate, *** type.


Totally agree. One thing about a bad experience is it gives you a list of red flags and you can look back and see where things went off the rails. Use it as a learning experience. 

Also think about what you really want and damn anyone else's opinion. If you want to just spend the rest of your days rolling around in a sea of saline breasts and change your name to Captain Poonhound, then go for it. If you want a few cool women you are friendly with and no expectations, then great. Relationships can look however you want, it doesn't have to follow the boyfriend/girlfriend to marriage path we were taught growing up.


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## minimalME

I apologize for invading your thread. 😔


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## Anastasia6

ArthurGPym said:


> So I recently went through a very difficult breakup with a woman who I thought loved me. Here is the link to that post:
> 
> Am I Overreacting?
> 
> Over the past few weeks my opinion of women, American women... California women to be exact, has gone through the basement. I don't trust women anymore frankly, and every time a lady treats me kindly I look at her with suspicion. Every action from a woman I encounter smacks of manipulation. Why am I felling this way? I was never this way before my last relationship fiasco. I always looked forward to encounters with the opposite sex. No I avoid them.
> 
> I am scared I am turning into that grumpy old unf*ckable guy who lives at the end of the street. Any other guys here who find themselves in this predicament? I don't want to be this guy. I like people. I WAS very sociable. But now? I find myself becoming more and more withdrawn. I don't watch TV anymore because everything on TV is about grrrrl power and female "empowerment". I get messages on the media every day about how toxic I am just because I am male and white.
> 
> I'm sick of it. Sorry for the rant. Matt Matt can lock the thread if it is too disruptive.


The fact your more worried about being unfuckable than unlovable or not being in a relationship says yeah you are probably not right to be in one. Avoiding women is good. Do some self care and healing.


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## Mr. Nail

ArthurGPym said:


> I don't trust women anymore frankly, and every time a lady treats me kindly I look at her with suspicion. Every action from a woman I encounter smacks of manipulation. Why am I felling this way?


You feel this way because you have been shown the truth.
I agree with much of your sentiment.


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## GusPolinski

Time and distance, sir.


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## Bulfrog1987

Being a woman married to someone your age.. My husband has issues with the past women in his life and therefore projects that onto other women in his life currently. No mom issues, but just bad past experiences with 2 ex wives and fiance(S) before them cheating, ect.

In my hindsight I can now see the common denominator in his problems and it isn't these other women if you get my drift. NOW! I'm not saying you're the denominator in your relationship or future ones.. I think you were being strung along personally. But what I do want to point out is if you maintain this outlook of misogyny you're going to end up missing out on one that doesn't string you along, take your kindness for granted and the entire gamut. That is currently the situation with my husband and I have many years ahead of me God willing. I'm 34 years old and I'm done with the ********.

You have plenty of years ahead for yourself too, don't get me wrong, with the managed outlook toward the opposite sex. Now my husband for instance, even being only 56, with his attitude and selfishness does not. He'll never get a good one because he doesn't have the ability to treat a woman with respect, it's simply, what are you going to do for me and you're a possession, in his book. You didn't have that outlook before and I hope you can get back to that place. We ain't all perfect, but we ain't all bad. Good luck.


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## Mr.Married

ArthurGPym said:


> why are you on a men’s thread? What is this the Oprah hour? I’m not interested a woman’s opinion.


Take it easy cowboy.... they ain’t gonna bite.


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## Mr. Nail

This Thread in the men's clubhouse has just been declared men only, by the OP. Please respect his decision.


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## ArthurGPym

Nah screw it. Later.


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## Cletus

ArthurGPym said:


> Nah screw it. Later.


I thought you said you were concerned about falling into misogyny, not that you had already been swallowed whole.


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## Mr.Married

Have you ever seen how much the men invade the girls clubhouse????


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## Mr. Nail

Yes it is true, Men read and post in the Ladies Lounge. Women read and post in the Men's clubhouse.
But there are times when the nerves are raw, or the hurt is fresh, or you just need some space. At those times these spaces should be used as a safe space to let it out.
The forum has a firm rule about threadjacking. If the thread discussion starter says that something is a Thread jack, then the mods will generally agree that it is.
In this case Where the request is made, it is polite to respect it.
May I add that it is always rude to storm into the Men's Club house, and verbally Club the Men around.


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## Cletus

ArthurGPym said:


> why are you on a men’s thread? What is this the Oprah hour? I’m not interested a woman’s opinion.





Mr. Nail said:


> In this case Where the request is made, it is polite to respect it.


It is also polite to make the request politely. You'll notice it's NOT in the original post. Acting like a jackass before you've even mentioned the hidden requirement is a **** move.


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## SunCMars

Once, then twice burned, the flesh needs more than healing.

It needs to air out, fair well, out.

Outside of a relationship.

This whole bit of men and women, being different.... we are, but not entirely.

The wants and needs of each sex, is more the same, than different.

Do you want female companionship, or need of it?
There is a big difference.

Learn, which it is.


_Are Dee-_ a male, a mile a minute..... at 60 plus.


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## Diana7

Hi there, as a woman I hope you don't mind me asking a hopefully polite and genuine question.

I have been deeply hurt by 3 very important men in my life including my father and first husband of 25 years who acted appallingly.

Do you think that because of this I should hate and distrust and blame all men? 







Genuinely interested.


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## RebuildingMe

OP, I can relate to what you are feeling. I have been burned twice by marriage. It has certainly affected my thinking and creates an internal gender war. I see everything from a man's POV and my posts on this site clearly demonstrate my feeling about the opposite sex. However (a big however), is through the help of reading and my current relationship, I am learning (albeit slowly) that not every woman behaves the way my ex did. Dropping the baggage and not carrying it with you from one relationship to the other is so important. Not only for your next woman, but for YOURSELF. Failing to do so gives you no chance at success. I think it is right to feel guarded and on high alert. However, don't feel jaded and hateful. Stick to what's important to you, but be open to accept a new person and ideas. I too am learning and it's not always easy. It's so hard to let your guard down just a bit, but yet it's key to recovery. Good luck to you.


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## Marc878

It pays to go slow and be careful. Women maybe a want but they are not a need.
Nothing wrong with keeping them at a girlfriend level. At the very least guard finances and have a strong pre nup in place. PROTECT YOURSELF first and foremost.


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## Mr. Nail

My expectations of women in general have changed to reflect the experiences I've had with specific women. A good example is the Manipulation OP mentioned in the Original post. Neither he nor I believe that every woman does this. But we do think twice before acceding to any female request. The assumption of benevolence is lost. Now we scan for ulterior motive. 
It is easy to slip from this state into misogyny, a general hatred of women. Right now we are at cautious distrust. the next steps are avoidance, presumption of malice, then preemption.


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## Diana7

Mr. Nail said:


> My expectations of women in general have changed to reflect the experiences I've had with specific women. A good example is the Manipulation OP mentioned in the Original post. Neither he nor I believe that every woman does this. But we do think twice before acceding to any female request. The assumption of benevolence is lost. Now we scan for ulterior motive.
> It is easy to slip from this state into misogyny, a general hatred of women. Right now we are at cautious distrust. the next steps are avoidance, presumption of malice, then preemption.


So do you guys think that women who have been hurt by men should distrust all men?


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## Mr. Nail

We should certainly distrust those who continue to blatantly manipulate our opinions, after being asked not to.


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## Al_Bundy

Diana7 said:


> So do you guys think that women who have been hurt by men should distrust all men?


I think when you've been hurt you can look back and pick out what you did wrong. Learn to not ignore red flags.


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## Diana7

Mr. Nail said:


> We should certainly distrust those who continue to blatantly manipulate our opinions, after being asked not to.


My question is respectful and simple.


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## Diana7

Al_Bundy said:


> I think when you've been hurt you can look back and pick out what you did wrong. Learn to not ignore red flags.


Yes I agree totally. However to blame 50% of the population for what one person did seems drastic.


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## Al_Bundy

Distrust should be the default in all dealings with people, period. Not just if you are a man of means, but if you don't have much then you definitely want to be careful because you literally can't afford to let the wrong person into your life.

For example......It's easy to tell guys to avoid gold diggers. So what are we supposed to do, drive a corolla and wear clothes from Goodwill? Wear a Timex watch? Eat at Olive Garden?


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## BigDaddyNY

Negative experiences are always hard to get over and you never forget them. There are lots of bad people of varying degrees in the world, men and women. That doesn't mean all women should be grouped with the bad ones. I think it has everything to do with personal experience. Almost all of the women in my life are amazing people. I've had very few negative experiences with women and witnessed very few negative experiences. There are good ones out there in abundance. Maybe those with the negative views of women as a whole need to look inward and ask why they keeping getting with the bad and broken women.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Mr. Nail said:


> My expectations of women in general have changed to reflect the experiences I've had with specific women. A good example is the Manipulation OP mentioned in the Original post. Neither he nor I believe that every woman does this. But we do think twice before acceding to any female request. The assumption of benevolence is lost. Now we scan for ulterior motive.
> It is easy to slip from this state into misogyny, a general hatred of women. Right now we are at cautious distrust. the next steps are avoidance, presumption of malice, then preemption.


The acceptance of benevolence is lost, that's a good sentence. A wise observance.


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## Mybabysgotit

ArthurGPym said:


> So I recently went through a very difficult breakup with a woman who I thought loved me. Here is the link to that post:
> 
> Am I Overreacting?
> 
> Over the past few weeks my opinion of women, American women... California women to be exact, has gone through the basement. I don't trust women anymore frankly, and every time a lady treats me kindly I look at her with suspicion. Every action from a woman I encounter smacks of manipulation. Why am I felling this way? I was never this way before my last relationship fiasco. I always looked forward to encounters with the opposite sex. No I avoid them.
> 
> I am scared I am turning into that grumpy old unf*ckable guy who lives at the end of the street. Any other guys here who find themselves in this predicament? I don't want to be this guy. I like people. I WAS very sociable. But now? I find myself becoming more and more withdrawn. I don't watch TV anymore because everything on TV is about grrrrl power and female "empowerment". I get messages on the media every day about how toxic I am just because I am male and white.
> 
> I'm sick of it. Sorry for the rant. Matt Matt can lock the thread if it is too disruptive.


although i'm not a big fan of the progressive crap (or capital letters..lol) going on in our country, especially in california, i don't have an issue with women. if they want to empower themselves, so be it, it's just like any other race /gender, etc. to each his/her own


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## Camper292000

Watch some coach Greg Adams videos. Get perspective. Work on you and be the most awesome man you want to be.

He's got a good book out as well.


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## Gabriel

IMO, you have to find someone who doesn't need to fight so hard to feel/be important.

If someone knows who they are, they don't need an abundance of self declared "me" time or to knock other people down/out of the way to get noticed.


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## Blondilocks

minimalME said:


> I apologize for invading your thread. 😔


I'm sorry you felt the need to apologize. I'm guessing the OP is in his cups.

And, since I live in Rancho Bernardo and am feeling a bit foolish for ever posting to the OP, I can assure you that I won't be making that mistake in the future.


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## anchorwatch

@*ArthurGPym, *

Welcome to the men's section of the forum. Yes, some women post here as some men post in the ladies section also. It's not restricted and it can actually be refreshing and bring different perspectives. 
And yes, you will get men and/or women who are here to push their own biases... just as IRL. 

My simple read on your post is you're angry and need a lot of time and some wins to take that bitter taste out of your mouth. So, don't overreact here or in life and you'll get back to center. 

Best


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## GusPolinski

He’s just hurting, y’all.

Yes, it was a childish outburst and wholly uncalled for, but he doesn’t strike me as someone that’s just genuinely hateful.

Art, odds are the events of this past week have sort of reset your clock where your recovery from everything involving your ex is concerned.

Time and distance, sir.


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## SunCMars

Diana7 said:


> So do you guys think that women who have been hurt by men should distrust all men?


Most do, to a degree, thank you.

Do deeply, until they don't, with none, no trust remaining due. 

To a degree, due to the kind, the kin of Simon Legree.
Like my Butch.

Because of my horrid husband, Butch, I fear men's intentions.
The inner tension always remains fearful.



_Lilith- Pffft ! _I post where ever I please, and I do..


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## jsmart

You’re just in a funk. It will pass. In the interim, work on yourself. Your trip to Spain was genius. Not saying to run off again but maybe lay off chasing after women and contrate on your craft. Maybe pick up a 2nd musical instrument, new hobby or sport. Losing yourself in something new will occupy your mind in something positive that will help you grow as a person. Eventually you will be ready to date but let it be organic.

Also lay off too much tv and especially social media. Instead read some old classic books.


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## Trident

Op is banned so don't expect a reply until/unless the ban is expired.

I don't trust women or men for that matter, I've found most people to be selfish and all about their own goals generally speaking. 

I'd never, ever place myself in a situation where I would be financially vulnerable to a women- in other words I'd never get married again. Doesn't mean I won't be in a relationship, I just will be always watching my back. You never know what another person is capable of doing and this isn't about gender.


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## Spotthedeaddog

ArthurGPym said:


> I am scared I am turning into that grumpy old unf*ckable guy who lives at the end of the street. Any other guys here who find themselves in this predicament? I don't want to be this guy. I like people. I WAS very sociable. But now? I find myself becoming more and more withdrawn. I don't watch TV anymore because everything on TV is about grrrrl power and female "empowerment". I get messages on the media every day about how toxic I am just because I am male and white.
> 
> I'm sick of it. Sorry for the rant. Matt Matt can lock the thread if it is too disruptive.


No you're not over-reacting.

You brain is just going through a chemical rewiring to stop your ex- being the top of your priority list.
this means that the manipulation social cues that are used by women to convince you are currently "Under Redevelopment", and before those contacts would have shot you up with little spikes of dopamine (and often testosterone) to keep you interested and happy - but due to the disconnection process than are felt as uncomfortable disturbances instead.

This is a good thing if you are aware of it - because you can now become _aware_ of just how many connections and social interactions that others are using to influence you - most of them in culturally approved methods, and many unconsciously. The major are just "approve me", "like me", "give me stuff", and the " "social contract" " 'If I'm 'nice' to you, then you must be nice to me'.


As for the media?
Actually that's pretty much accurate description of modern media - you are no longer the target audience. Excellent chance to dodge advertisements, download the shows you might like (especially older good stuff), and get productive hobby. It is blessing, not a problem.

The Social thing will come back eventually as the hormone levels even out - but then you might still be a bit senstive to being used and abused, in a world where women and mainstream see your sole value as an object to be used and abused.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Trident said:


> Op is banned so don't expect a reply until/unless the ban is expired.
> 
> I don't trust women or men for that matter, I've found most people to be selfish and all about their own goals generally speaking.
> 
> I'd never, ever place myself in a situation where I would be financially vulnerable to a women- in other words I'd never get married again. Doesn't mean I won't be in a relationship, I just will be always watching my back. You never know what another person is capable of doing and this isn't about gender.


Yes, must ban those who are different - only free speech and acceptable limits of freedom shall be permitted. You are not a person, you are a member of society, and big sister is Always Watching.
Seek approval or Be Cancelled.


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## Trident

I've found the moderation on this forum to be more than fair and very tolerant.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge without knowing the reasons.


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## In Absentia

yes, you are slipping into misogyny. Take a break, take a deep breath, relax and use your brain.


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## Young at Heart

ArthurGPym said:


> So I recently went through a very difficult breakup with a woman who I thought loved me. Here is the link to that post:
> 
> Am I Overreacting?
> 
> Over the past few weeks my opinion of women, American women... California women to be exact, has gone through the basement. I don't trust women anymore frankly, and every time a lady treats me kindly I look at her with suspicion. Every action from a woman I encounter smacks of manipulation. Why am I felling this way? I was never this way before my last relationship fiasco. I always looked forward to encounters with the opposite sex. No I avoid them.
> 
> I am scared I am turning into that grumpy old unf*ckable guy who lives at the end of the street. Any other guys here who find themselves in this predicament? I don't want to be this guy. I like people. I WAS very sociable. But now? I find myself becoming more and more withdrawn. I don't watch TV anymore because everything on TV is about grrrrl power and female "empowerment". I get messages on the media every day about how toxic I am just because I am male and white.
> 
> I'm sick of it. Sorry for the rant. Matt Matt can lock the thread if it is too disruptive.


OK, I can understand how you felt like your exclusive girlfriend just dumped you after her MIL died. You did everything you could for her and then she distanced herself from you.

A few thoughts. First if you date a woman who has been married before and has joint custody of kids with their father, then you need to understand that to a certain respect, you will always be in a second chair role at "family events." That especially includes when her kids get married, when her in-laws funerals occur, etc. In those situations, it takes an exceptional woman and an exceptional family to make room and honor the new man in her life. 

If sounds like the two of you have separated for good and now you are trying to move forward. Bravo. You do need to heal from this. You also need to improve yourself so this kind of thing or this level of unhappiness never happens to you again.

Right now I would advise you to do go out and date. But tell any women you go out with that you felt pretty emotionally damaged by your last relationship and so you need some time before you are going to be ready for a serious long term relationship. As such you do want to date, you do want to have fun, and you would like to explore the sexual chemistry between you and a special woman you especially enjoy. You have to let your barriers down, you have to learn how to emotionally, mentally, and physically enjoy a woman's company. However, you do need to heal and change yourself before you commit to any exclusive and serious relationships.

May I suggest some IC counseling to help you figure out any issues or baggage you carry that will interfere with exploring a healthy relationship with a woman. I would also suggest you read Glover's Book, No More, Mr. Nice Guy. Learn about co-dependency, learn about covert contracts with women, learn about how to "get a life." Discuss them with you IC. Also, discuss dating as an older man and what kinds of things previously married women will have to include within their lives if they decide you are the next man in their life.

Good luck. A trip to Spain or a trip to a legal brothel all sound like good ways to mark an end to your last emotional relationship and move forward with your life.


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## Harold Demure

Arthur, very sorry that you yourself in the position you do. You have been put through a hell of a lot and I actually think your venting, ranting or whatever one wants to call it is part of the process in coming to terms with what has happened to you. 

In my day, we used to call it letting off steam and everyone would see it for what it was, a release where things are often said but not necessarily meant. Now days, you are nobody unless you get offended by something and being understanding/cutting someone some slack seems to be a social grace that has been lost. Some tolerance and understanding goes a long way.

I am sorry to say this but the only person losing out on life here is you at the moment. People have offered up some suggestions on how you may move out of this current mood and I hope you find some inner peace.

Unlike me, you are not old enough to become the grumpy old git sitting in the corner. You have got plenty of time for that so don’t waste potentially good years. 

Is it okay to say that actually, I quite enjoy being grumpy at times and there is some sort of luxury in being happily miserable for short periods. It is very cathartic, just don’t let it define who you are.


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## EleGirl

spot said:


> Yes, must ban those who are different - only free speech and acceptable limits of freedom shall be permitted. You are not a person, you are a member of society, and big sister is Always Watching.
> Seek approval or Be Cancelled.


Have you read the rules for TAM forums? If not you should. The most basic rule is to treat other posters with respect. The moderator who gave him a 2 day ban did so because of his rude responses to other posters.


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## Asterix

I didn't read the whole thread and the replies, so if this is mentioned before, I apologize for the repetitiveness of it. This is also false equivalence, but I hope that it'll help me make my point.

The burger you ate at Wendy's is different than the burger that is available at McDonald and these are different from the ones that are usually served in the hell's kitchen in Vegas. Some burgers are worse and some are divine.

I understand that you are feeling suspiceous, but the next woman you meet may not have the same characteristics as your ex. She may be worse, but she could be much better.

So, my humble suggestion is to eat more burgers especially the fur kind.


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## lifeistooshort

EleGirl said:


> Have you read the rules for TAM forums? If not you should. The most basic rule is to treat other posters with respect. The moderator who gave him a 2 day ban did so because of his rude responses to other posters.


Absolutely.

Everyone is free to share opinions; if we banned every opinion we didn't like half of TAM would be gone. 

But you have to be a respectful adult. Most posters have no problem with that but sometimes people need a reminder and a little time to cool off.


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## karmagoround

ArthurGPym said:


> my opinion of women, American women... California women to be exact, has gone through the basement.


I remember what that is like. I went from one of the most trusting and friendly, to all women are sluts, and all men are theives. Trust no one.


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## Willnotbill

ArthurGPym said:


> So I recently went through a very difficult breakup with a woman who I thought loved me. Here is the link to that post:
> 
> Am I Overreacting?
> 
> Over the past few weeks my opinion of women, American women... California women to be exact, has gone through the basement. I don't trust women anymore frankly, and every time a lady treats me kindly I look at her with suspicion. Every action from a woman I encounter smacks of manipulation. Why am I felling this way? I was never this way before my last relationship fiasco. I always looked forward to encounters with the opposite sex. No I avoid them.
> 
> I am scared I am turning into that grumpy old unf*ckable guy who lives at the end of the street. Any other guys here who find themselves in this predicament? I don't want to be this guy. I like people. I WAS very sociable. But now? I find myself becoming more and more withdrawn. I don't watch TV anymore because everything on TV is about grrrrl power and female "empowerment". I get messages on the media every day about how toxic I am just because I am male and white.
> 
> I'm sick of it. Sorry for the rant. Matt Matt can lock the thread if it is too disruptive.


I think that once someone has been a victim of infidelity their ability to trust diminishes considerably.


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## ConanHub

Mr.Married said:


> Take it easy cowboy.... they ain’t gonna bite.


WOW! That one got edited out quick!

Lost my sympathy, just... like.... that....


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## GusPolinski

ArthurGPym said:


> So I recently went through a very difficult breakup with a woman who I thought loved me. Here is the link to that post:
> 
> Am I Overreacting?
> 
> Over the past few weeks my opinion of women, American women... California women to be exact, has gone through the basement. I don't trust women anymore frankly, and every time a lady treats me kindly I look at her with suspicion. Every action from a woman I encounter smacks of manipulation. Why am I felling this way? I was never this way before my last relationship fiasco. I always looked forward to encounters with the opposite sex. No I avoid them.
> 
> I am scared I am turning into that grumpy old unf*ckable guy who lives at the end of the street. Any other guys here who find themselves in this predicament? I don't want to be this guy. I like people. I WAS very sociable. But now? I find myself becoming more and more withdrawn. I don't watch TV anymore because everything on TV is about grrrrl power and female "empowerment". I get messages on the media every day about how toxic I am just because I am male and white.
> 
> I'm sick of it. Sorry for the rant. Matt Matt can lock the thread if it is too disruptive.


Short answer is this —

Your ability to trust has been severely — and repeatedly — damaged. And since trust is the cornerstone of any meaningful relationship dynamic between the sexes, your ability to bond with, take seriously, and have meaningful interactions with women has been compromised.

Doesn’t have to be something that plagues you for the rest of your life, though.

Time and distance.

And, honestly, maybe some therapy as well.

Wishing you well, sir.


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## karmagoround

Mr.Married said:


> Have you ever seen how much the men invade the girls clubhouse????


No. Because I don't go to the girls clubhouse because I'm male. But one has to wonder...
What are you doing in the girls clubhouse? Are you transitioning?


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## Trident

GusPolinski said:


> Your ability to trust has been severely — and repeatedly — damaged. And since trust is the cornerstone of any meaningful relationship dynamic between the sexes, your ability to bond with, take seriously, and have meaningful interactions with women has been compromised.


Story of my life.


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## karmagoround

In the southeast, there is still plenty of the southern hospitality style ladies. Very lovable. They are easy to spot now because you can see their whole faces. But of late there has been an influx of outsiders who seem to have no hospitality at all. Just mean, chip on their shoulder types that might look good from a distance, but up close are revolting... even with their masks on.


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## ConanHub

spot said:


> Yes, must ban those who are different - only free speech and acceptable limits of freedom shall be permitted. You are not a person, you are a member of society, and big sister is Always Watching.
> Seek approval or Be Cancelled.


You are apparently not spot on.

This site is very good on free speach and differing opinions.


----------



## ConanHub

Blondilocks said:


> I'm sorry you felt the need to apologize. I'm guessing the OP is in his cups.
> 
> And, since I live in Rancho Bernardo and am feeling a bit foolish for ever posting to the OP, I can assure you that I won't be making that mistake in the future.


California girls!😉


----------



## EleGirl

Trident said:


> Op is banned so don't expect a reply until/unless the ban is expired.
> 
> I don't trust women or men for that matter, I've found most people to be selfish and all about their own goals generally speaking.
> 
> I'd never, ever place myself in a situation where I would be financially vulnerable to a women- in other words I'd never get married again. Doesn't mean I won't be in a relationship, I just will be always watching my back. You never know what another person is capable of doing and this isn't about gender.


I'm in the same place with this. My take on it is "trust but verify". I don't just have this attitude for friendships/relations with men... I feel the same way about women. Basically neither sex has a monopoly on having some members who are awful people.


----------



## EleGirl

karmagoround said:


> No. Because I don't go to the girls clubhouse because I'm male. But one has to wonder...
> What are you doing in the girls clubhouse? Are you transitioning?


Most threads in the Ladies' Lounge have at least 50% male posters. It's all good.


----------



## ConanHub

karmagoround said:


> No. Because I don't go to the girls clubhouse because I'm male. But one has to wonder...
> What are you doing in the girls clubhouse? Are you transitioning?


I often hang out there because I'm still learning about ladies.😉


----------



## SunCMars

From the beginning of time...
There has been the battle of the sexes, we have come to this, succumb to this.
From our beginnings, our makings.

GOD made a perfect being and split IT in two.
The halves continually try to get together, and mend first, each their halves.
Then to re-meld together, both their halves into ONE, yet again.

Mankind has hopelessly and endlessly divided that first cleaved pair.
The present cleaved, now have become permanently aggrieved.
Some find a good match, most just bleed from the pairing, as too many jagged edges do meet.


----------



## SunCMars

karmagoround said:


> No. Because I don't go to the girls clubhouse because I'm male. But one has to wonder...
> What are you doing in the girls clubhouse? Are you transitioning?


Watch your mouth, Buster!

We are Legend, we are many.

_The HeadMates-_


----------



## lifeistooshort

EleGirl said:


> Most threads in the Ladies' Lounge have at least 50% male posters. It's all good.


To me the irony is that the female responses struck me as supportive of the OP. It's not like anyone is giving him a hard time for his feelings. 

Most of us are familiar with his story and understand that his ex treated him badly.


----------



## SunCMars

EleGirl said:


> Most threads in the Ladies' Lounge have at least 50% male posters. It's all good.


We go where we are needed, where we are called.

The young, the old, ladies and gents, none yet bald.

Well, some are seen balled, none yet, bawled out, nope, not yet.


_The Typist- _The men lock me in the closet, never the ladies. The ladies know a friend when they see one.


----------



## SunCMars

lifeistooshort said:


> To me the irony is that the female responses struck me as supportive of the OP. It's not like anyone is giving him a hard time for his feelings.
> 
> Most of us are familiar with his story and understand that his ex treated him badly.


I hope it is not a purposeful act...
Maybe the effect of alcohol?

So sudden, this attitude. 

Not good.


----------



## Rob_1

Before my first marriage and in between before my actual marriage just like most everyone I was many times rejected, ceremoniously or unceremoniously dumped, eventually passed for someone else, and it didn't matter that I was considered somewhat very manly and handsome if I may say so.

The thing is that I never let that cut me deep to my soul. What it did was to teach me to watch and observe for the traits that I knew were going to do me harm if I was going to seek something serious with a woman and to just pass. I also almost instinctively learned to never go completely blinded and giving myself to the other person with no concern for myself like so many people that come to these forums and the first thing they said is I love her more than myself or life itself. That's so ****ed up. How can you love someone more than yourself? I you say you do, then how can you know what love is? You must love yourself first in order to give love, otherwise you just don't know what love is.

My mantra has always been trust but verify. We are all humans and as such we all are subject to fail in any way at any time in life. 

When it comes to relationships we cannot, nor should dip blinded by the emotions of love into a relationship. People that do that are the ones most likely to get burned bad if things go bad. Actually, people that let their emotions run so deep that they can not longer control them are subject to all kind of hurts and are the ones that cannot take it very well, and go to the deep end.

When we let someone takes us to the deep end we are not only giving them power over ourselves, we actually had surrendered to them.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Al_Bundy said:


> Distrust should be the default in all dealings with people, period. Not just if you are a man of means, but if you don't have much then you definitely want to be careful because you literally can't afford to let the wrong person into your life.
> 
> For example......It's easy to tell guys to avoid gold diggers. So what are we supposed to do, drive a corolla and wear clothes from Goodwill? Wear a Timex watch? Eat at Olive Garden?


I've always found it pretty easy to spot a gold digger. It doesn't take long before they're asking for gifts or financial favors. They hold out until they get what they want and they're usually above your attractiveness level or you wouldn't be giving them that much leash.


----------



## aine

ConanHub said:


> I often hang out there because I'm still learning about ladies.😉


Yah, nowadays even bathrooms are not safe from the intrusion of males 😅


----------



## oldshirt

ArthurGPym said:


> So I recently went through a very difficult breakup with a woman who I thought loved me. Here is the link to that post:
> 
> Am I Overreacting?
> 
> Over the past few weeks my opinion of women, American women... California women to be exact, has gone through the basement. I don't trust women anymore frankly, and every time a lady treats me kindly I look at her with suspicion. Every action from a woman I encounter smacks of manipulation. Why am I felling this way? I was never this way before my last relationship fiasco. .


IMHO it's not really about not trusting women per se, but rather your trust in yourself and your own judgement has taken a hit. Your confidence in yourself and your judgement and in your ability to size people up and read the signs has been shaken. 

I read through your other thread. I did not read all 33 pages of the other posters responses but I did read all of your posts. 

What strikes me as notable is that you went roughly 25 years where all your dates and encounters with women were usually one-nighters or very short lived associations. 

Then when you did think you had found "The One", she pulls this crap on you. I think this has rocked your confidence in your own judgement. Do you distrust women, or do you distrust your own ability to vet and select good ones??

Are you angry and disgusted with women, or are you angry and disgusted at yourself for thinking you had found a gold mine but really just got the shaft? 

I get it, we've all been duped and chumped and have gotten the shaft. You have just cause to be angry and even dumbfounded at her, what she did was not only crappy but down right dumb as well. It made no sense. She shouldn't have done it. Not only for being crappy to you but for what she gave up and lost herself. You are having a hard time reconciling that in your brain because your brain does not work that way so you may be questioning yourself on how you could have been so wrong about her. 

But chicks are goofy and do not always make sense to very rational and methodical men. Some times they are like completely alien beings from another galaxy. The problem is some times you invest yourself into one so much that when she does an about-face and walks away in a day, you feel like YOU must be the alien. 

I understand your anger and your resentment and bitterness towards her. She worked hard to earn that anger and resentment. 

But slipping into misogeny is toxic and harmful to you. Over 50% of the earth's population is made up of women. It is detrimental to you to harbor disdain and resentment towards that many people, especially if a significant part of that distrust and anger is actually towards yourself. 

My recommendation is seek some professional IC. This was a big blow. It was a trauma. There is heartbreak, there is mourning and most importantly it was a big hit to your ego and self esteem and your own sense of confidence and trust in yourself. IC can help with that. 

If you broke your arm, you wouldn't think twice about getting it looked at and set and immobilized, and you wouldn't think twice about taking some prescribed medications to help manage the acute pain and you wouldn't give a second thought doing the prescribed physical therapy to get your strength and mobility back.

An acute injury to the psyche is no different.


----------



## GG1061

ArthurGPym said:


> So I recently went through a very difficult breakup with a woman who I thought loved me. Here is the link to that post:
> 
> Am I Overreacting?
> 
> You haven’t had the time yet to get that rotten taste out of your mouth from your last relationship. Give it time.
> 
> Over the past few weeks my opinion of women, American women... California women to be exact, has gone through the basement. I don't trust women anymore frankly, and every time a lady treats me kindly I look at her with suspicion. Every action from a woman I encounter smacks of manipulation. Why am I felling this way? I was never this way before my last relationship fiasco. I always looked forward to encounters with the opposite sex. No I avoid them.
> 
> I am scared I am turning into that grumpy old unf*ckable guy who lives at the end of the street. Any other guys here who find themselves in this predicament? I don't want to be this guy. I like people. I WAS very sociable. But now? I find myself becoming more and more withdrawn. I don't watch TV anymore because everything on TV is about grrrrl power and female "empowerment". I get messages on the media every day about how toxic I am just because I am male and white.
> 
> I'm sick of it. Sorry for the rant. Matt Matt can lock the thread if it is too disruptive.


----------



## oldshirt

Al_Bundy said:


> For example......It's easy to tell guys to avoid gold diggers. So what are we supposed to do, drive a corolla and wear clothes from Goodwill? Wear a Timex watch? Eat at Olive Garden?


you say that like those are all bad things. My Corolla ran flawlessly for many years and many miles. It is one of the most reliable and dependable cars and efficient cars out there. My $45 Timex works just fine. And Olive Garden's lasagna is quite good. 

And yes, I have never been the target of gold diggers LOL


----------



## ccpowerslave

I can say having been around California girls my entire life I think The Beach Boys had it right.

So many people live here there is someone for everyone. You can find people with the values you want OP but you may have to dig through a bunch to get there.


----------



## Bulfrog1987

karmagoround said:


> No. Because I don't go to the girls clubhouse because I'm male. But one has to wonder...
> What are you doing in the girls clubhouse? Are you transitioning?


This comment is just dumb.


----------



## SunCMars

_When some break, they break for the worst.
They often brake for their own, run over the rest.

Are Dee-_


----------



## Al_Bundy

oldshirt said:


> you say that like those are all bad things. My Corolla ran flawlessly for many years and many miles. It is one of the most reliable and dependable cars and efficient cars out there. My $45 Timex works just fine. And Olive Garden's lasagna is quite good.
> 
> And yes, I have never been the target of gold diggers LOL


When I was a kid I thought the rich people ate at Red Lobster.


----------



## minimalME

Al_Bundy said:


> When I was a kid I thought the rich people ate at Red Lobster.


Their fish tacos are really good. 🌮


----------



## Rus47

ArthurGPym said:


> So I recently went through a very difficult breakup with a woman who I thought loved me. Here is the link to that post:
> 
> Am I Overreacting?
> 
> *Over the past few weeks my opinion of women, American women... California women to be exact, has gone through the basement. I don't trust women anymore frankly, and every time a lady treats me kindly I look at her with suspicion.* Every action from a woman I encounter smacks of manipulation. Why am I felling this way? I was never this way before my last relationship fiasco. I always looked forward to encounters with the opposite sex. No I avoid them.
> 
> I am scared I am turning into that grumpy old unf*ckable guy who lives at the end of the street. Any other guys here who find themselves in this predicament? I don't want to be this guy. I like people. I WAS very sociable. But now? I find myself becoming more and more withdrawn. I* don't watch TV anymore* because everything on TV is about grrrrl power and female "empowerment". I get messages on the media every day about how toxic I am just because I am male and white.
> 
> I'm sick of it. Sorry for the rant. Matt Matt can lock the thread if it is too disruptive.


At the risk of being flamed, is it possible to quote the old song you are "looking for love in all the wrong places?" As in maybe the wrong area/state/country/culture? Or maybe the wrong settings? Bar/Gym/church/? When you visited Spain, what was that like? Granted you were just visiting, but what were your impressions? 

With what, about 3.5 Billion females on the planet, the majority can't be out to do you harm. The ones you have encountered closely haven't treated you well, but maybe change where you look?

BTW, not watching TV is actually a good thing. I don't find much on the tube worth wasting time with.


----------



## Hiner112

Al_Bundy said:


> Distrust should be the default in all dealings with people, period. Not just if you are a man of means, but if you don't have much then you definitely want to be careful because you literally can't afford to let the wrong person into your life.
> 
> For example......It's easy to tell guys to avoid gold diggers. So what are we supposed to do, drive a corolla and wear clothes from Goodwill? Wear a Timex watch? Eat at Olive Garden?


Yes.


----------



## karmagoround

Bulfrog1987 said:


> This comment is just dumb.


Corny. For sure.


----------



## Diana7

Trident said:


> Op is banned so don't expect a reply until/unless the ban is expired.
> 
> I don't trust women or men for that matter, I've found most people to be selfish and all about their own goals generally speaking.
> 
> I'd never, ever place myself in a situation where I would be financially vulnerable to a women- in other words I'd never get married again. Doesn't mean I won't be in a relationship, I just will be always watching my back. You never know what another person is capable of doing and this isn't about gender.


I must just be a trusting person because I know LOADS of people I trust, both among family and friends. 
Despite what the previous men in my life did, I always knew that it was down to them and not all men. I also met and married my now husband without a qualm. I trusted him very quickly and he has never made me doubt my decision to marry him. 
I also would never have a prenup or worry about money in a marriage. I always wanted to get married again despite everything.


----------



## Diana7

karmagoround said:


> I remember what that is like. I went from one of the most trusting and friendly, to all women are sluts, and all men are theives. Trust no one.


Can you not see that blaming all people for what one or two did is just madness? Would you like to be hated and blamed because of what another person has done?


----------



## Diana7

oldshirt said:


> you say that like those are all bad things. My Corolla ran flawlessly for many years and many miles. It is one of the most reliable and dependable cars and efficient cars out there. My $45 Timex works just fine. And Olive Garden's lasagna is quite good.
> 
> And yes, I have never been the target of gold diggers LOL


Yes, and what is wrong with a Timex watch????


----------



## oldshirt

Diana7 said:


> I must just be a trusting person because I know LOADS of people I trust, both among family and friends.
> Despite what the previous men in my life did, I always knew that it was down to them and not all men. I also met and married my now husband without a qualm. I trusted him very quickly and he has never made me doubt my decision to marry him.
> I also would never have a prenup or worry about money in a marriage. I always wanted to get married again despite everything.


I believe in trusting people to be people. I believe in trusting men to be men. And I believe in trusting women to be women. 
That means given the right opportunities and the right set of circumstances and the right temptations and the risk mix of risk vs reward, people can and often will do some pretty shtty things. 

When I was in the Army, we were required by policy to have all of our lockers and gear locked up at all times and leaving one's locker or footlocker unsecured was an Article 15 offence. It wasn't just a good idea, it was the rules. 

Some guys took offence to that as it implied that either they were thieves or that their buddies were thieves. But the general saying was, "locks keep honest men honest." In other words, if you took care of your own stuff, then you didn't need to worry about if the other guy was a crook or not. You could assume he was honest and you wouldn't have to look at him with suspicion. 

I think relationships and marriages need to have some of the same philosophy and mentality. I've been married for almost 26 years. I do not worry about my wife withdrawing the bank accounts and running off to the Bahamas with another man, nor does she worry about me emptying out the bank accounts on motorcycles and guns and boats etc because we have never had a joint account or joint credit cards etc. 

The mortgage is in both our names but all financial accounts, mutual funds, 401Ks, cars etc are in our individual names. 

Now I know that in a divorce that some individual assets can still get consolidated and distributed and that you may not be able to keep every cent of your individual monies. But having separate accounts and lines of credit etc is just a little extra assurance that no one is going to run off with anything leaving you completely stranded.... and it adds another layer of work and effort to try to "take him to the cleaners" such that it becomes easier to just settle out of court with what is mine is mine and what is yours is yours. 

Now I realise that you and some others here will see that as being less bonded and less likely to remain married and that we each already have one foot out the door and that the likelihood of divorce is higher with that kind of mentality. 

But I do not agree with that. I think it actually makes the marriage healthier and makes the spectre of divorce less likely since we are stronger and more capable individuals with our own separate assets. There is simply less to argue over and less incentive to try to take as many assets as one can gather up to leave. 

Some times making a divorce easier, makes it less likely to occur. Again, it keeps honest people honest and acting in good faith. She has the ways and means to leave me tomorrow. I have the ways and means to leave her tomorrow. There for we are both on our good behavior. 

I know that is not for everyone. But it has worked for us almost 26 years.


----------



## karmagoround

Diana7 said:


> Can you not see that blaming all people for what one or two did is just madness? Would you like to be hated and blamed because of what another person has done?


Diane7, Thank you for asking. Certainly now, yes... I'm okay. Yet after having been severely flamed... that is what it felt like for years. The line was something that reflected what I learned from her affair. A softer way to say it might be: "No such thing as just friends". 

I don't think I hated anyone or blamed anyone. But shields are going to go up after being fooled by who you trusted the most. I hope this helps the OP... me too man.


----------



## karmagoround

Diana7 said:


> I must just be a trusting person because I know LOADS of people I trust, both among family and friends.
> Despite what the previous men in my life did, I always knew that it was down to them and not all men. I also met and married my now husband without a qualm. I trusted him very quickly and he has never made me doubt my decision to marry him.
> I also would never have a prenup or worry about money in a marriage. I always wanted to get married again despite everything.


"In Him I live and move and have my being. "
 That might have something to do with it.


----------



## lifeistooshort

oldshirt said:


> I believe in trusting people to be people. I believe in trusting men to be men. And I believe in trusting women to be women.
> That means given the right opportunities and the right set of circumstances and the right temptations and the risk mix of risk vs reward, people can and often will do some pretty shtty things.
> 
> When I was in the Army, we were required by policy to have all of our lockers and gear locked up at all times and leaving one's locker or footlocker unsecured was an Article 15 offence. It wasn't just a good idea, it was the rules.
> 
> Some guys took offence to that as it implied that either they were thieves or that their buddies were thieves. But the general saying was, "locks keep honest men honest." In other words, if you took care of your own stuff, then you didn't need to worry about if the other guy was a crook or not. You could assume he was honest and you wouldn't have to look at him with suspicion.
> 
> I think relationships and marriages need to have some of the same philosophy and mentality. I've been married for almost 26 years. I do not worry about my wife withdrawing the bank accounts and running off to the Bahamas with another man, nor does she worry about me emptying out the bank accounts on motorcycles and guns and boats etc because we have never had a joint account or joint credit cards etc.
> 
> The mortgage is in both our names but all financial accounts, mutual funds, 401Ks, cars etc are in our individual names.
> 
> Now I know that in a divorce that some individual assets can still get consolidated and distributed and that you may not be able to keep every cent of your individual monies. But having separate accounts and lines of credit etc is just a little extra assurance that no one is going to run off with anything leaving you completely stranded.... and it adds another layer of work and effort to try to "take him to the cleaners" such that it becomes easier to just settle out of court with what is mine is mine and what is yours is yours.
> 
> Now I realise that you and some others here will see that as being less bonded and less likely to remain married and that we each already have one foot out the door and that the likelihood of divorce is higher with that kind of mentality.
> 
> But I do not agree with that. I think it actually makes the marriage healthier and makes the spectre of divorce less likely since we are stronger and more capable individuals with our own separate assets. There is simply less to argue over and less incentive to try to take as many assets as one can gather up to leave.
> 
> Some times making a divorce easier, makes it less likely to occur. Again, it keeps honest people honest and acting in good faith. She has the ways and means to leave me tomorrow. I have the ways and means to leave her tomorrow. There for we are both on our good behavior.
> 
> I know that is not for everyone. But it has worked for us almost 26 years.


I agree with this. It's the same mindset that causes marriages where divorce is always an option, albeit an undesirable option, to often be better. How many times have we seen people here with stories about their spouse cheats/treats them like crap but they "don't believe in divorce"?

Divorce should always be on the table if one or both parties can't abide by the marital contract of love/honor/cherish/forsake all others. If my bf starts treating me poorly I'm out, and I would hope he'd leave if I treated him poorly. Knowing your partnership isn't guaranteed can make you a more thoughtful and attentive partner.


----------



## oldshirt

lifeistooshort said:


> Knowing your partnership isn't guaranteed can make you a more thoughtful and attentive partner.


That is a very good way to word it. 

Where else in life do people feel guaranteed of an outcome?

If you knew you were going to win every game, would you even try to play your best? 
If you knew you were always going to arrive at every destination and would never get a traffic ticket or get in a wreck would you wear your seat belts or stop at stop signs or follow any speed or traffic laws? 
If you knew you'd never get sick would you eat right and exercise or would you live in ice cream and donuts in front of Netflix?
If you knew you'd never get in trouble or get fired from your job, would you even show up in the morning? 

So why is marriage any different? If you know your partner will never leave and that they will continue to perform their spousal tasks and domestic responsibilities, what's stopping anyone from mistreating them? 

Your partner loving you and staying with you is never guaranteed and divorce is always an option. And it is a very viable and appropriate option in a number of situations.


----------



## Diana7

karmagoround said:


> "In Him I live and move and have my being. "
> That might have something to do with it.


Yes😊


----------



## Diana7

oldshirt said:


> That is a very good way to word it.
> 
> Where else in life do people feel guaranteed of an outcome?
> 
> If you knew you were going to win every game, would you even try to play your best?
> If you knew you were always going to arrive at every destination and would never get a traffic ticket or get in a wreck would you wear your seat belts or stop at stop signs or follow any speed or traffic laws?
> If you knew you'd never get sick would you eat right and exercise or would you live in ice cream and donuts in front of Netflix?
> If you knew you'd never get in trouble or get fired from your job, would you even show up in the morning?
> 
> So why is marriage any different? If you know your partner will never leave and that they will continue to perform their spousal tasks and domestic responsibilities, what's stopping anyone from mistreating them?
> 
> Your partner loving you and staying with you is never guaranteed and divorce is always an option. And it is a very viable and appropriate option in a number of situations.


It seems odd to me that I would mistreat someone just because they aren't going to leave. It's like mistreating a small child because they can't leave, not something a decent person would do.


----------



## Diana7

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree with this. It's the same mindset that causes marriages where divorce is always an option, albeit an undesirable option, to often be better. How many times have we seen people here with stories about their spouse cheats/treats them like crap but they "don't believe in divorce"?
> 
> Divorce should always be on the table if one or both parties can't abide by the marital contract of love/honor/cherish/forsake all others. If my bf starts treating me poorly I'm out, and I would hope he'd leave if I treated him poorly. Knowing your partnership isn't guaranteed can make you a more thoughtful and attentive partner.


My husband is very against divorce. That actually makes me treat him better not worse, because I love him for being that way. If I was in fear of a spouse leaving I wouldn't be happy or secure so wouldn't be the best wife I could be.


----------



## Diana7

oldshirt said:


> I believe in trusting people to be people. I believe in trusting men to be men. And I believe in trusting women to be women.
> That means given the right opportunities and the right set of circumstances and the right temptations and the risk mix of risk vs reward, people can and often will do some pretty shtty things.
> 
> When I was in the Army, we were required by policy to have all of our lockers and gear locked up at all times and leaving one's locker or footlocker unsecured was an Article 15 offence. It wasn't just a good idea, it was the rules.
> 
> Some guys took offence to that as it implied that either they were thieves or that their buddies were thieves. But the general saying was, "locks keep honest men honest." In other words, if you took care of your own stuff, then you didn't need to worry about if the other guy was a crook or not. You could assume he was honest and you wouldn't have to look at him with suspicion.
> 
> I think relationships and marriages need to have some of the same philosophy and mentality. I've been married for almost 26 years. I do not worry about my wife withdrawing the bank accounts and running off to the Bahamas with another man, nor does she worry about me emptying out the bank accounts on motorcycles and guns and boats etc because we have never had a joint account or joint credit cards etc.
> 
> The mortgage is in both our names but all financial accounts, mutual funds, 401Ks, cars etc are in our individual names.
> 
> Now I know that in a divorce that some individual assets can still get consolidated and distributed and that you may not be able to keep every cent of your individual monies. But having separate accounts and lines of credit etc is just a little extra assurance that no one is going to run off with anything leaving you completely stranded.... and it adds another layer of work and effort to try to "take him to the cleaners" such that it becomes easier to just settle out of court with what is mine is mine and what is yours is yours.
> 
> Now I realise that you and some others here will see that as being less bonded and less likely to remain married and that we each already have one foot out the door and that the likelihood of divorce is higher with that kind of mentality.
> 
> But I do not agree with that. I think it actually makes the marriage healthier and makes the spectre of divorce less likely since we are stronger and more capable individuals with our own separate assets. There is simply less to argue over and less incentive to try to take as many assets as one can gather up to leave.
> 
> Some times making a divorce easier, makes it less likely to occur. Again, it keeps honest people honest and acting in good faith. She has the ways and means to leave me tomorrow. I have the ways and means to leave her tomorrow. There for we are both on our good behavior.
> 
> I know that is not for everyone. But it has worked for us almost 26 years.


I am glad it's worked for you, for me having joint accounts is very much part of being married and being one.


----------



## Diana7

karmagoround said:


> Diane7, Thank you for asking. Certainly now, yes... I'm okay. Yet after having been severely flamed... that is what it felt like for years. The line was something that reflected what I learned from her affair. A softer way to say it might be: "No such thing as just friends".
> 
> I don't think I hated anyone or blamed anyone. But shields are going to go up after being fooled by who you trusted the most. I hope this helps the OP... me too man.


Its understandable to be wary I get that. I don't know, after the times I got deeply hurt I just always seemed to be able to grasp that it was that one person who did that, and that there was still loads of other decent people out there who I can trust. To hate all women/ men for what one or two did seems crazy to me. 
I am glad that you are ok now, there really are good people out there.


----------



## Rus47

Diana7 said:


> It seems odd to me that I would mistreat someone just because they aren't going to leave. It's like mistreating a small child because they can't leave, not something a decent person would do.


There are a lot of not decent people in this world. Actually a majority. Who will treat another (including a small child) badly because they can. The news is full of those people and the evil they do every evening on TV. And a lot of times their friends and neighbors are astounded.


----------



## Diana7

Rus47 said:


> There are a lot of not decent people in this world. Actually a majority. Who will treat another (including a small child) badly because they can. The news is full of those people and the evil they do every evening on TV. And a lot of times their friends and neighbors are astounded.


Yes there are some but I would disagree that it's a majority.


----------



## Rus47

Diana7 said:


> To hate all women/ men for what one or two did seems crazy to me.


If you live long enough you will encounter the bad ones and hopefully a few good ones along the way. We are forbidden to hate anyone, certainly not an entire gender, no matter how badly we have been treated by people. I always think of Corrie ten Boom and her treatment for trying to save people from being murdered.


----------



## Diana7

Rus47 said:


> If you live long enough you will encounter the bad ones and hopefully a few good ones along the way. We are forbidden to hate anyone, certainly not an entire gender, no matter how badly we have been treated by people. I always think of Corrie ten Boom and her treatment for trying to save people from being murdered.


Plus she was able to forgive her German tormentors.


----------



## Diana7

Rus47 said:


> If you live long enough you will encounter the bad ones and hopefully a few good ones along the way. We are forbidden to hate anyone, certainly not an entire gender, no matter how badly we have been treated by people. I always think of Corrie ten Boom and her treatment for trying to save people from being murdered.


Yes I have encountered bad ones, bit thankfully know many really lovely people.


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## lifeistooshort

Diana7 said:


> My husband is very against divorce. That actually makes me treat him better not worse, because I love him for being that way. If I was in fear of a spouse leaving I wouldn't be happy or secure so wouldn't be the best wife I could be.


Well if he didn't treat you well then what? What if you didn't treat him well?

In my view people who accept poor treatment because they don’t believe in divorce are doormats.

Since you are divorced you clearly have some bar of acceptability for it.

You can afford to take such an attitude because you treat each other well. This is like people who go on about how great the good old days were. Well sure....they were great for the people they worked for.


----------



## Diana7

lifeistooshort said:


> Well if he didn't treat you well then what? What if you didn't treat him well?
> 
> In my view people who accept poor treatment because they don’t believe in divorce are doormats.
> 
> Since you are divorced you clearly have some bar of acceptability for it.
> 
> You can afford to take such an attitude because you treat each other well. This is like people who go on about how great the good old days were. Well sure....they were great for the people they worked for.


I had little choice but to end my first marriage. Others were affected and the police were involved. My husband was divorced against his will when his ex found another man.

It depends what you mean by if your spouse treats you badly. If there is bad abuse or adultery then yes, but many end marriages for weak reasons when with work and effort could save it. 

We have faced lots of difficulties in our marriages which many second marriages face but when you both have the attitude that you are not going to divorce you are more likely to work through things.


----------



## oldshirt

Diana7 said:


> It seems odd to me that I would mistreat someone just because they aren't going to leave. It's like mistreating a small child because they can't leave, not something a decent person would do.


But yet we hear about cases of child abuse every day.


----------



## lifeistooshort

oldshirt said:


> But yet we hear about cases of child abuse every day.


Classic case of projecting one's own values onto others 

I wouldn't do it so it must not be happening.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Diana7 said:


> I had little choice but to end my first marriage. Others were affected and the police were involved. My husband was divorced against his will when his ex found another man.
> 
> It depends what you mean by if your spouse treats you badly. If there is bad abuse or adultery then yes, but many end marriages for weak reasons when with work and effort could save it.
> 
> We have faced lots of difficulties in our marriages which many second marriages face but when you both have the attitude that you are not going to divorce you are more likely to work through things.


Why didn't you have a choice? Did the authorities force you to divorce?

You could've stuck around and work at it yet you didn't. I'm not suggesting you should have...I support your decision to divorce in that case. But to claim you had no choice is disingenuous....you had a choice and you exercised it. Women stay married to murderers so everyone has their own bar.

I'm simply pointing out that your attitude is only productive if you have 2 spouses willing to work on the marriage in good faith and they are both generally upstanding people..

Some spouses will take advantage of the others unwillingness to divorce bt continuing to behave badly.

I'm happy this isn't the case for you.


----------



## LisaDiane

Diana7 said:


> Plus she was able to forgive her German tormentors.


But only through God...she NEVER expected that others should see things her way, just because she believed it was the right way. She was humble and allowed her experience to move people according to God's will, not according to HER will.

I will also add that going through it, she struggled with forgiveness, it was her sister Betsie who taught HER to be more generous and forgiving.


----------



## Diana7

oldshirt said:


> But yet we hear about cases of child abuse every day.


Yes, it's in the news. That doesn't make it the majority.


----------



## Diana7

lifeistooshort said:


> Why didn't you have a choice? Did the authorities force you to divorce?
> 
> You could've stuck around and work at it yet you didn't. I'm not suggesting you should have...I support your decision to divorce in that case. But to claim you had no choice is disingenuous....you had a choice and you exercised it. Women stay married to murderers so everyone has their own bar.
> 
> I'm simply pointing out that your attitude is only productive if you have 2 spouses willing to work on the marriage in good faith and they are both generally upstanding people..
> 
> Some spouses will take advantage of the others unwillingness to divorce bt continuing to behave badly.
> 
> I'm happy this isn't the case for you.


I had no choice because of the danger. I talked to professional people who agreed that I had no choice.


----------



## Diana7

LisaDiane said:


> But only through God...she NEVER expected that others should see things her way, just because she believed it was the right way. She was humble and allowed her experience to move people according to God's will, not according to HER will.
> 
> I will also add that going through it, she struggled with forgiveness, it was her sister Betsie who taught HER to be more generous and forgiving.


 Her sister died in the camp. Her story of forgiveness came much later in her life when she actually came accross one of her German captors.


----------



## LisaDiane

Diana7 said:


> Her sister died in the camp. Her story of forgiveness came much later in her life when she actually came accross one of her German captors.


Right, remembering Betsie's example and asking GOD to forgive that man because she couldn't do it on her own.

And that wasn't "much" later in life, it was early in her ministry after the war.


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## gr8ful1

lifeistooshort said:


> Knowing your partnership isn't guaranteed can make you a more thoughtful and attentive partner.


Interestingly, I‘ve taken that approach to business, and it’s served us extremely well. While my competitors have contracts that lock customers in whether or not they’re getting a good product/service, we don’t. We don’t ever take our customers for granted since they could literally walk away at any time. Thing is, they don’t because we are doubly motivated to give them a great experience, and we’re quick to make right anything that isn’t. The idea that “we win when our customers win” has proven true in great measure. I trust nobody would argue that relationships where neither take the other for granted are better.


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## Livvie

Diana7 said:


> It depends what you mean by if your spouse treats you badly. If there is bad abuse or adultery then yes, but many end marriages for weak reasons when with work and effort could save it.


Name one weak reason. 

I've seen marriages end because one person does some really awful stuff for weak reasons, but the marriage is ending because the other was grossly mistreated -- which is NOT a weak reason.

So please give one real life example of a weak reason for ending a marriage.


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## BigDaddyNY

Diana7 said:


> I am glad it's worked for you, for me having joint accounts is very much part of being married and being one.





oldshirt said:


> I believe in trusting people to be people. I believe in trusting men to be men. And I believe in trusting women to be women.
> That means given the right opportunities and the right set of circumstances and the right temptations and the risk mix of risk vs reward, people can and often will do some pretty shtty things.
> 
> When I was in the Army, we were required by policy to have all of our lockers and gear locked up at all times and leaving one's locker or footlocker unsecured was an Article 15 offence. It wasn't just a good idea, it was the rules.
> 
> Some guys took offence to that as it implied that either they were thieves or that their buddies were thieves. But the general saying was, "locks keep honest men honest." In other words, if you took care of your own stuff, then you didn't need to worry about if the other guy was a crook or not. You could assume he was honest and you wouldn't have to look at him with suspicion.
> 
> I think relationships and marriages need to have some of the same philosophy and mentality. I've been married for almost 26 years. I do not worry about my wife withdrawing the bank accounts and running off to the Bahamas with another man, nor does she worry about me emptying out the bank accounts on motorcycles and guns and boats etc because we have never had a joint account or joint credit cards etc.
> 
> The mortgage is in both our names but all financial accounts, mutual funds, 401Ks, cars etc are in our individual names.
> 
> Now I know that in a divorce that some individual assets can still get consolidated and distributed and that you may not be able to keep every cent of your individual monies. But having separate accounts and lines of credit etc is just a little extra assurance that no one is going to run off with anything leaving you completely stranded.... and it adds another layer of work and effort to try to "take him to the cleaners" such that it becomes easier to just settle out of court with what is mine is mine and what is yours is yours.
> 
> Now I realise that you and some others here will see that as being less bonded and less likely to remain married and that we each already have one foot out the door and that the likelihood of divorce is higher with that kind of mentality.
> 
> But I do not agree with that. I think it actually makes the marriage healthier and makes the spectre of divorce less likely since we are stronger and more capable individuals with our own separate assets. There is simply less to argue over and less incentive to try to take as many assets as one can gather up to leave.
> 
> Some times making a divorce easier, makes it less likely to occur. Again, it keeps honest people honest and acting in good faith. She has the ways and means to leave me tomorrow. I have the ways and means to leave her tomorrow. There for we are both on our good behavior.
> 
> I know that is not for everyone. But it has worked for us almost 26 years.


We've never had separate accounts since the day we got married and I never worried about her emptying our accounts. We do have separate retirement accounts, because we have to. We both have access to everything including monthly statements and would see something odd. Just like I trust my wife not to cheat I trust her with our money, with our kids, etc. I trust her with everything. Since day one we have been a team. That doesn't mean I stupid enough to not realize that every person on this planet is capable of doing bad things. I keep my eyes and my mind open to all possibilities, but I also put a huge amount of faith in my wife and she does the same with me. That is marriage as far as I'm concerned. I know exactly what you are talking about with the Army, I've been there. That is different. As close as I was with my Army buddies I didn't take a wedding vow with them. 

Our way has worked for almost 32 years. I'm glad your way worked for you. Do you think there ever would have been a problem had you not kept separate accounts? Has either one of you gotten into financial trouble, and kept it secret? To me, keeping separate accounts without open access of the spouse is keeping secrets from one another. That isn't needed in a strong relationship IMO. We even go so far as to have an extra credit card, in both our names, that we only use at Christmas. She will use that one when she starts buying Christmas presents for me and I know not to look at the statement until after the holidays. That way it keeps me from getting a clue about what she or the kids got me. That is about the extent of secrets we keep from each other.


----------



## minimalME

Livvie said:


> Name one weak reason.


I’ll confess that my reasoning was weak - and unbiblical.

I didn’t want to spend my life with a passive man. By the end of my marriage, I had no respect for him, and I considered him a coward.

So, other than preference, I had no grounds for divorce. I just wanted my way.


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## Livvie

minimalME said:


> I’ll confess that my reasoning was weak - and unbiblical.
> 
> I didn’t want to spend my life with a passive man. By the end of my marriage, I had no respect for him, and I considered him a coward.
> 
> So, other than preference, I had no grounds for divorce. I just wanted my way.


I don't consider that a weak reason. Sounds like extreme incompatibility.


----------



## oldshirt

BigDaddyNY said:


> #1. Do you think there ever would have been a problem had you not kept separate accounts?
> 
> #2. Has either one of you gotten into financial trouble, and kept it secret?
> 
> #3. To me, keeping separate accounts without open access of the spouse is keeping secrets from one another.


#1. We agreed to separate accounts from the very beginning when we were starting to discuss marriage so it has always been this way. I do however believe that if we had all joint accounts that we would have had financial conflict. Being a typical guy I like motorcycles, guns, boats, rock climbing and camping gear etc etc. And while she not a typical shopper and not into designer handbags or those little figurines chicks display in cabinets etc etc she is still a girl and spends a lot of money on "STUFF." 

If we had joint accounts, we would have each been looking over the other's shoulders questioning them about their purchases and arguing over whether I really needed another gun or whether she really needed another pillow for the couch that no one uses or another one of those things chicks hang on walls. 

We are each fundamentally financially responsible and neither of us are spendthrifts. Our agreement is we each stay out of each other's business and people can get what they want as long as it does not negatively impact the other.

#2. Not really financial "trouble" or any actual secrets per se, but there have been times I found out what her credit card bills were and was not happy about it and there have been times that I paid off her credit cards and gave her the dad lecture about running up credit card debt. 

Neither of us have financial "secrets" per se and if the other were to ask to see the other's books, we would show the other. 
So in essence we do have trust,, it's just a different kind of trust than those who believe in having all joint accounts and discussing all purchases with each other. 

I trust her to be a responsible adult and expect her to manage her financial affairs as a responsible adult as she expects me to do the same. 

#3. Again, if one were to ask to see the books, we can. So not really a secret. I don't need to know when she takes a dump either. Some things are just an individual's personal business. I don't need to know what her turds look like and I don't need to know what her bank accounts look like either as long as we are not running into any financial difficulty as a couple. 

I realise if there are any accountants or financial advisors reading this that they have probably just spit out their morning coffee and fell out of the chair. And I realise this is not the way to great financial wealth and probably goes against every principle in Personal Finance 101,,,, but I don't care. I only have one life to live and I am not going to spend it bickering on whether she can buy a new set of window blinds or whether I can get a new set of pipes for my motorcycle. 

She's a full grown, college educated, gainfully employed professional. I don't need to be looking over her shoulder 24/7 telling her how to balance her checkbook. And if I did need to do that, I would not have married her in the first place.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Livvie said:


> I don't consider that a weak reason. Sounds like extreme incompatibility.



To this point what constitutes a weak reason is subjective. The bottom line is that we've decided that we're not going to force people who don't want to stay married to stay married.

Besides...I certainly don't want someone being forced to stay married to me.


----------



## oldshirt

oldshirt said:


> She's a full grown, college educated, gainfully employed professional. I don't need to be looking over her shoulder 24/7 telling her how to balance her checkbook. And if I did need to do that, I would not have married her in the first place.


I realise my outlook is not the norm. I realise it is not recommended by most financial professionals and gurus. I realise it's likely not a best practice and not the most efficient and effective way of growing wealth and that our bottom line will not be as good as if we had fastidiously sat down and plotted out a mutual financial plan together together and held each other to some kind of budget blah blah blah. 

I don't care. I don't want anyone telling me what I can and cannot do with my money and I don't want to be watching over someone's shoulder telling them what they can and can not do with theirs. I realise some of you don't see that as what you think of as a marriage. I don't care. We've had sex with other people too, so obviously our marriage does not fit the traditional mould. 

But here's the point I want to make - I think the reason a lot of both men and women want to have and insist on joint accounts and shoulder-to-shoulder financial plans and budgets and supervision etc etc is because on a fundamental level they DON'T trust each other. It's easier to watch the pot and see where it's all coming from and going to if it is all pooled together on top of the table. 

I think women want joint accounts because they want to see where it is all coming from and making sure that they know where it all is and that they have access to it. Kind of the old "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine" principle. They want to make sure he isn't slipping some of it into his own pocket or going to some other woman and that none of what is supposed to be "her" assets and resources isn't going to feed some other woman's offspring. 

And the reason I think a lot of men want joint accounts is so they can more easily keep tabs on how much she is spending on stupid stuff and have an idea of where it is all going and at least try to keep monies being spent on designer shoes and accessories under control. 

It's a form of mutual restriction and control over the other. 

I don't have time or energy for that shyt. I grew up in the 70s with a very strong, educated and professional mother who was a first-wave feminist (who advocated for equal opportunities and equal pay for equal work. Not the 250lb, blue haired lesbians holding marches for abortion kiosks in malls today) who fought for women being considered equal humans and not property and not pets. That means get an education, get a job, pay your bills and manage your money. 

If someone can't manage their money or pay their bills because they have a vagina, that's their problem. It ain't gonna be mine.


----------



## Al_Bundy

Diana7 said:


> Yes, and what is wrong with a Timex watch????


Nobody has a poster of a corolla on their wall or dreams of being able to afford a Timex.


----------



## Al_Bundy

oldshirt said:


> I realise my outlook is not the norm. I realise it is not recommended by most financial professionals and gurus. I realise it's likely not a best practice and not the most efficient and effective way of growing wealth and that our bottom line will not be as good as if we had fastidiously sat down and plotted out a mutual financial plan together together and held each other to some kind of budget blah blah blah.
> 
> I don't care. I don't want anyone telling me what I can and cannot do with my money and I don't want to be watching over someone's shoulder telling them what they can and can not do with theirs. I realise some of you don't see that as what you think of as a marriage. I don't care. We've had sex with other people too, so obviously our marriage does not fit the traditional mould.
> 
> But here's the point I want to make - I think the reason a lot of both men and women want to have and insist on joint accounts and shoulder-to-shoulder financial plans and budgets and supervision etc etc is because on a fundamental level they DON'T trust each other. It's easier to watch the pot and see where it's all coming from and going to if it is all pooled together on top of the table.
> 
> I think women want joint accounts because they want to see where it is all coming from and making sure that they know where it all is and that they have access to it. Kind of the old "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine" principle. They want to make sure he isn't slipping some of it into his own pocket or going to some other woman and that none of what is supposed to be "her" assets and resources isn't going to feed some other woman's offspring.
> 
> And the reason I think a lot of men want joint accounts is so they can more easily keep tabs on how much she is spending on stupid stuff and have an idea of where it is all going and at least try to keep monies being spent on designer shoes and accessories under control.
> 
> It's a form of mutual restriction and control over the other.
> 
> I don't have time or energy for that shyt. I grew up in the 70s with a very strong, educated and professional mother who was a first-wave feminist (who advocated for equal opportunities and equal pay for equal work. Not the 250lb, blue haired lesbians holding marches for abortion kiosks in malls today) who fought for women being considered equal humans and not property and not pets. That means get an education, get a job, pay your bills and manage your money.
> 
> If someone can't manage their money or pay their bills because they have a vagina, that's their problem. It ain't gonna be mine.


I think some people don't want the financial responsibility. If they aren't responsible then that let's them play the victim is things go south and if it happens to work out then they can talk about how great of a person they are for "trusting" their spouse. And no I'm not talking about anyone in particular in this thread. I'm saying I've seen couples where one party is completely hands off which I think is just lazy on their part. 

Also as a financial professional, I think what you are doing is smart.


----------



## marko polo

ArthurGPym said:


> So I recently went through a very difficult breakup with a woman who I thought loved me. Here is the link to that post:
> 
> Am I Overreacting?
> 
> Over the past few weeks my opinion of women, American women... California women to be exact, has gone through the basement. I don't trust women anymore frankly, and every time a lady treats me kindly I look at her with suspicion. Every action from a woman I encounter smacks of manipulation. Why am I felling this way? I was never this way before my last relationship fiasco. I always looked forward to encounters with the opposite sex. No I avoid them.
> 
> I am scared I am turning into that grumpy old unf*ckable guy who lives at the end of the street. Any other guys here who find themselves in this predicament? I don't want to be this guy. I like people. I WAS very sociable. But now? I find myself becoming more and more withdrawn. I don't watch TV anymore because everything on TV is about grrrrl power and female "empowerment". I get messages on the media every day about how toxic I am just because I am male and white.
> 
> I'm sick of it. Sorry for the rant. Matt Matt can lock the thread if it is too disruptive.


There is always risk in dating and relationships. Like any other venture or gamble risk only what you are willing to lose.

Trust is earned. Don't offer it unconditionally. The same applies to your time. Give as good as you get. Don't put another's interest above your own. Set no expectations save that you and a woman may share nothing more than a pleasant conversation. If she has a deeper interest she will make it known to you. There won't be a mixed message.

Leave at the first sign of disinterest, disrespect or betrayal. Don't bother asking them why as they will lie to you and more of your valuable time is wasted. Do not entertain any excuses given. Offer no second chance. Give no explanation for your departure. You lose nothing of value with this approach. If a woman or any person for that matter is worth your time they will not waste it.

As for your recent experience, you should not doubt yourself nor how you handled the matter. You cared for her deeply and invariably that affected your judgement. You offered her your best. If you felt there was no future with her you would have torpedoed the situation much earlier. She is a skilled manipulator. She took the time to study you and mimic the qualities you desired.  Despite having your judgement clouded, you still came to recognize you were being used. You took swift and decisive action and ejected her from your life.


----------



## Al_Bundy

BigDaddyNY said:


> We've never had separate accounts since the day we got married and I never worried about her emptying our accounts. We do have separate retirement accounts, because we have to. We both have access to everything including monthly statements and would see something odd. Just like I trust my wife not to cheat I trust her with our money, with our kids, etc. I trust her with everything. Since day one we have been a team. That doesn't mean I stupid enough to not realize that every person on this planet is capable of doing bad things. I keep my eyes and my mind open to all possibilities, but I also put a huge amount of faith in my wife and she does the same with me. That is marriage as far as I'm concerned. I know exactly what you are talking about with the Army, I've been there. That is different. As close as I was with my Army buddies I didn't take a wedding vow with them.
> 
> Our way has worked for almost 32 years. I'm glad your way worked for you. Do you think there ever would have been a problem had you not kept separate accounts? Has either one of you gotten into financial trouble, and kept it secret? To me, keeping separate accounts without open access of the spouse is keeping secrets from one another. That isn't needed in a strong relationship IMO. We even go so far as to have an extra credit card, in both our names, that we only use at Christmas. She will use that one when she starts buying Christmas presents for me and I know not to look at the statement until after the holidays. That way it keeps me from getting a clue about what she or the kids got me. That is about the extent of secrets we keep from each other.


You and @oldshirt have two different approaches that are working out for you guys. One thing you have in common is you got married in a different century, literally. That's a trend I've noticed among many of the people here who are happy with their marriages.


----------



## LisaDiane

minimalME said:


> I’ll confess that my reasoning was weak - and unbiblical.
> 
> I didn’t want to spend my life with a passive man. By the end of my marriage, I had no respect for him, and I considered him a coward.
> 
> So, other than preference, I had no grounds for divorce. I just wanted my way.


I don't see this as weak or frivolous...if you cannot hold your vows (love, honor, cherish, etc), then you owe it to your spouse to dissolve the marriage and find better partners.

EVERYONE divorces for "non-Biblical" reasons, and Christians support divorce for unhappy partners.

You were RIGHT to divorce a man you couldn't respect or love.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

oldshirt said:


> #1. We agreed to separate accounts from the very beginning when we were starting to discuss marriage so it has always been this way. I do however believe that if we had all joint accounts that we would have had financial conflict. Being a typical guy I like motorcycles, guns, boats, rock climbing and camping gear etc etc. And while she not a typical shopper and not into designer handbags or those little figurines chicks display in cabinets etc etc she is still a girl and spends a lot of money on "STUFF."
> 
> If we had joint accounts, we would have each been looking over the other's shoulders questioning them about their purchases and arguing over whether I really needed another gun or whether she really needed another pillow for the couch that no one uses or another one of those things chicks hang on walls.
> 
> We are each fundamentally financially responsible and neither of us are spendthrifts. Our agreement is we each stay out of each other's business and people can get what they want as long as it does not negatively impact the other.
> 
> #2. Not really financial "trouble" or any actual secrets per se, but there have been times I found out what her credit card bills were and was not happy about it and there have been times that I paid off her credit cards and gave her the dad lecture about running up credit card debt.
> 
> Neither of us have financial "secrets" per se and if the other were to ask to see the other's books, we would show the other.
> So in essence we do have trust,, it's just a different kind of trust than those who believe in having all joint accounts and discussing all purchases with each other.
> 
> I trust her to be a responsible adult and expect her to manage her financial affairs as a responsible adult as she expects me to do the same.
> 
> #3. Again, if one were to ask to see the books, we can. So not really a secret. I don't need to know when she takes a dump either. Some things are just an individual's personal business. I don't need to know what her turds look like and I don't need to know what her bank accounts look like either as long as we are not running into any financial difficulty as a couple.
> 
> I realise if there are any accountants or financial advisors reading this that they have probably just spit out their morning coffee and fell out of the chair. And I realise this is not the way to great financial wealth and probably goes against every principle in Personal Finance 101,,,, but I don't care. I only have one life to live and I am not going to spend it bickering on whether she can buy a new set of window blinds or whether I can get a new set of pipes for my motorcycle.
> 
> She's a full grown, college educated, gainfully employed professional. I don't need to be looking over her shoulder 24/7 telling her how to balance her checkbook. And if I did need to do that, I would not have married her in the first place.


All good points. I have to say that part of why we have everything intertwined is due to getting married young 18 and 21, left for basic training 2 weeks later, then moving 2 states away from our childhood home. We both started pretty much from zero and built everything jointly and it has stayed that way.


----------



## oldshirt

BigDaddyNY said:


> All good points. I have to say that part of why we have everything intertwined is due to getting married young 18 and 21, left for basic training 2 weeks later, then moving 2 states away from our childhood home. We both started pretty much from zero and built everything jointly and it has stayed that way.


I was 31 and she was 28 when we married. Being independent adults when we started seeing each other may be part of it. 

Perhaps neither of us wanted to give up that level of financial autonomy. 

But I don’t think I would have done it any different even if I had married young. I just don’t believe in that. Different strokes.


----------



## Evinrude58

OP,
Go buy yourself an old Ford pickup, dress down a little. Don’t advertise that you have money. There are lots of women out there looking for a good guy.
I suspect the ones you attract are likely a high percentage of gold diggers. There are a lot of those too.
Don’t fall in the trap if thinking all women are bad. They are more conditioned to be manipulative….. But there’s few good women just like there’s not a lot of good men.
Makes a guy appreciate the rubies among women that much more. I’ve become immune to the obvious bad ones and their black clouds.

Like Gus told you, give it some time.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Diana7 said:


> Yes I agree totally. However to blame 50% of the population for what one person did seems drastic.


When over 80% of that 50% do the same, not that drastic.

As a women said to me about hypergamous behaviour, it likewise applies to men - you really only get one shot at this, so best make careful selection and maximise your gain. (ie don't sell out on "Ms Best Right Now", better to just play the safe hand until you got the nuts and can really count on things - and for guys that means have fun, don't take silly chances, keep your bets low, and build your pot. Then pick from quality position, not gamble on a what might be a good shot - the name of the game is eventually all in, one shot, so make it the best one that you can control.


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## EleGirl

spot said:


> A good example of this would be the extreme rudeness of calling an old poster making a bit of a slow afternoon revisit to TAM, and getting called a "sockpuppet" by some rando - but are you going to get a ban for that rudeness, and that extremely poor taste and false "calling out" that was entirely insulting and uncalled for? If not then clearly the moderation is not fair and its "tolerance" onesided.


When someone called you a "sockpuppet" did you report it using the report function? Moderators do not read all the posts on every thread. Moderators mostly respond to reports made by other members.


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## Prodigal

spot said:


> Elegirl, We've been through this dance before, several years ago.


Oops!😁😆😅😂😂🤣


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## Spotthedeaddog

oldshirt said:


> I was 31 and she was 28 when we married. Being independent adults when we started seeing each other may be part of it.
> 
> Perhaps neither of us wanted to give up that level of financial autonomy.
> 
> But I don’t think I would have done it any different even if I had married young. I just don’t believe in that. Different strokes.


Well the whole point of "marriage" is to join assets in a joint venture. That's why it used to be a "for life" concept*, even for multiple partners, and why it was such serious business to set aside a spouse.

* as it would dictate all parties involved would give 100% effort and commitment, since there were no alternatives or reasons to hold back for better. Neither party would be expected to hold something "for themselves" since both were bound until at least one died - which meant it didn't make sense not to make your best effort, since if you didn't make your best effort now then there would never be a "later" when you weren't financially or ambition-wise linked. This also provided a stable singular identity for children of such a union, as it was a surety and what was best financial and social gain for parents would be the environment and inheritance of the children. It also provided a safer investment for elders and community, since the marriage was being driven by people who had a 100% engagement in its success.

also why: 
Handfasting was for landless peasants and serving folk, who didn't have land or trade business.
Ring-bond & marriage were for landed folk who at least had a home.
Husbands were expected to have a career and means to gain a home get a family (either their own house, or as a wing/extension to their extended family.
Why women were often considered "dead"/"went through burial rites" with their old families to get them to commit 100% to their new family.


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## Spotthedeaddog

oldshirt said:


> When I was in the Army, we were required by policy to have all of our lockers and gear locked up at all times and leaving one's locker or footlocker unsecured was an Article 15 offence. It wasn't just a good idea, it was the rules.


In the Army you were taught to Trust the System.
Not because the System was any good, but simply because higher ups could not use you to acheive their objectives if you thought for yourselves and were permitted to be lazy.

The importance of such measures to the lowly soldier is that he has his tools when he needs them and is ready and prepared even when something unexpected occurs. Sure it generally takes Jo Civvy three years to acclimatise to the mindset, were they can proactively prepare and act like a functional unit.

But the real importance is that after that three years you can get in the habit of expecting the people around you and at your back to be ready and be looking forward to achieving an objective rather than just "following orders".

A big difference between civvy street and soldier is that System and locking into what other people have dictated for you. It is even harder for the soldier to proactively break that conditioning and see beyond what their System and their owners are telling them is true and proper. A soldiers life frequently creates a very narrow view of what is supposed to be done and how to perform it - such things are good in a line unit, or grunting in other barracks among the expendables. So tell me, if such policies as the one you describe are so good, how do you get past that conditioning to the next step, and how to improve life, not just "live by someone elses' rules"


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## Divinely Favored

Diana7 said:


> Hi there, as a woman I hope you don't mind me asking a hopefully polite and genuine question.
> 
> I have been deeply hurt by 3 very important men in my life including my father and first husband of 25 years who acted appallingly.
> 
> Do you think that because of this I should hate and distrust and blame all men?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Genuinely interested.


You know he doesn't. But it can jade eithet sec when tepeatedly screwed over. Took a few years for my wife to let go of her view that men can not fall prey to a womans charms and they are powerless to not cheat. Her 1st hubby really burned her good with his serial cheating azz. Even her family knew he was cheating and did not tell her because they thought she would not believe them. So she now trusts only me and no one else. But it took me years to break down the wall.


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## Spotthedeaddog

oldshirt said:


> Some times making a divorce easier, makes it less likely to occur. Again, it keeps honest people honest and acting in good faith. She has the ways and means to leave me tomorrow. I have the ways and means to leave her tomorrow. There for we are both on our good behavior.
> 
> I know that is not for everyone. But it has worked for us almost 26 years.


But have you factored in that the person you are connected with:

Is a lot older than many people here, and comes from a cultural background that isn't in the last 10-20 years.
tends to more conservative as they are in a military related family and if they survive through postings and returns, especially if there are still benefits, that they are more conservative people with narrower more conservative values. Especially with partners who come from active military families themselves. (Dependo's not counted)
might not have seen what may be considered more viable or advantageous options.

Several ex-serving families that did stay together fit that mold. She is often independent because she's used to him being away on ops or postings; he is used to her keeping house and has few interests "in her space". A least one partner is on lifelong pension, that's just every month free money, usually not a lot, but it makes life and hobbies a lot easier when you're not solely dependent on employment wage. At least one of them is very active outdoors or away from the house (eg hunting, range, in garage working on vehicles, or hanging with mates (not including downing all the money in weed or booze)). Those still together have freehold or very small mortgage on their sizeable home. They are both very used to having many people around with similiar attitudes and experiences and good social standing in that circle.

Charging an empty valley might be easy success but it is the environment that lends itself to that, not the work done.

c.f. think of all the points I raised and you'll see where options, opportunity, or any of those factors cover most break-ups in military and other marriages.


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## Spotthedeaddog

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm simply pointing out that your attitude is only productive if you have 2 spouses willing to work on the marriage in good faith and they are both generally upstanding people...


And if you already had people like that they seldom end up on the point of divorce in the first place


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## MattMatt

spot said:


> Elegirl, We've been through this dance before, several years ago.
> 
> Remember (since that's something I consider important about respect), as I said what you might consider respect I might consider disrespect, and vice versa. (same for rude)


*MODERATOR NOTE:- *In this context, that doesn't matter. Because, and I'm pointing this out as gently as I can, you are not a moderator of this site.


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## ConanHub

Rus47 said:


> If you live long enough you will encounter the bad ones and hopefully a few good ones along the way. We are forbidden to hate anyone, certainly not an entire gender, no matter how badly we have been treated by people. I always think of Corrie ten Boom and her treatment for trying to save people from being murdered.


I didn't know about her. Thanks for the reference. I looked her up and read her story and have tears in my eyes.

I'm afraid I would have been killing Nazis and/or getting killed myself but I love helping people if God allows me to.😊


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## Rus47

ConanHub said:


> I didn't know about her. Thanks for the reference. I looked her up and read her story and have tears in my eyes.
> 
> I'm afraid I would have been killing Nazis and/or getting killed myself but I love helping people if God allows me to.😊


This is off topic, but wife and I have been in the clock shop years ago. When her family was arrested after being turned in by an informant, the Jews remaining in the hiding place were not discovered and later escaped. Corrie wrote several books and one was made into a movie about her life. She preached on forgiveness and in 1947 encountered one of her ex-guards after preaching forgiveness in a German church. If you can, watch the movie about her life. It is as close to what happened as a movie can be. It was produced by the Billy Graham association many years ago.


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## ConanHub

Rus47 said:


> This is off topic, but wife and I have been in the clock shop years ago. When her family was arrested after being turned in by an informant, the Jews remaining in the hiding place were not discovered and later escaped. Corrie wrote several books and one was made into a movie about her life. She preached on forgiveness and in 1947 encountered one of her ex-guards after preaching forgiveness in a German church. If you can, watch the movie about her life. It is as close to what happened as a movie can be. It was produced by the Billy Graham association many years ago.


I have to be careful about what I watch and I can't watch most things concerning the Holocaust. I can read things occasionally however. I'm a bird on a wire with a wounded wing with certain things.

I read her WW2 history and I know informants are less attractive than herpes and deserve less respect.

Jan Vogel can rot in hell.


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## Diana7

LisaDiane said:


> Right, remembering Betsie's example and asking GOD to forgive that man because she couldn't do it on her own.
> 
> And that wasn't "much" later in life, it was early in her ministry after the war.


 She asked God to help HER forgive which He did as soon as she shook his hand. Amazing story.


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## Diana7

Spotthedeaddog said:


> When over 80% of that 50% do the same, not that drastic.
> 
> As a women said to me about hypergamous behaviour, it likewise applies to men - you really only get one shot at this, so best make careful selection and maximise your gain. (ie don't sell out on "Ms Best Right Now", better to just play the safe hand until you got the nuts and can really count on things - and for guys that means have fun, don't take silly chances, keep your bets low, and build your pot. Then pick from quality position, not gamble on a what might be a good shot - the name of the game is eventually all in, one shot, so make it the best one that you can control.


I must be lucky because I know loads of really lovely people. Maybe it depends on who you mix with? Where you go?
I remember a lady on a forum years ago who had a really great husband. Her friends used to say 'he is lovely where did you find him?'. Her answer, 'well I didn't pick him up in a bar'. She made a good point.

So to say that 80% of women are the same is just crazy. Just as saying that 80% of men are the same is crazy.
Maybe you have met a few bad eggs, don't tar countless millions with the same brush.


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## tech-novelist

ArthurGPym said:


> So I recently went through a very difficult breakup with a woman who I thought loved me. Here is the link to that post:
> 
> Am I Overreacting?
> 
> Over the past few weeks my opinion of women, American women... California women to be exact, has gone through the basement. I don't trust women anymore frankly, and every time a lady treats me kindly I look at her with suspicion. Every action from a woman I encounter smacks of manipulation. Why am I felling this way? I was never this way before my last relationship fiasco. I always looked forward to encounters with the opposite sex. No I avoid them.
> 
> I am scared I am turning into that grumpy old unf*ckable guy who lives at the end of the street. Any other guys here who find themselves in this predicament? I don't want to be this guy. I like people. I WAS very sociable. But now? I find myself becoming more and more withdrawn. I don't watch TV anymore because everything on TV is about grrrrl power and female "empowerment". I get messages on the media every day about how toxic I am just because I am male and white.
> 
> I'm sick of it. Sorry for the rant. Matt Matt can lock the thread if it is too disruptive.


First let me say that I'm happily married so I'm not a misogynist by any reasonable definition of the word.

Having gotten that out of the way, I fully agree with your take on today's society, at least in the US, which is where I live and the only society with which I have any reasonable familiarity.

If I were to find myself single, I would not consider dating anyone whom I didn't know very well first. It's too great a risk with too little return.

To get back to your particular situation, I agree with the other posters who say you should not make a woman the center of your life. Yes, that is true even if you are married or in another committed relationship. _You_ need to be the center of your life, and a woman can be a valued companion once you have your own life in reasonable condition.


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## tech-novelist

Al_Bundy said:


> Distrust should be the default in all dealings with people, period. Not just if you are a man of means, but if you don't have much then you definitely want to be careful because you literally can't afford to let the wrong person into your life.
> 
> For example......It's easy to tell guys to avoid gold diggers. So what are we supposed to do, drive a corolla and wear clothes from Goodwill? Wear a Timex watch? Eat at Olive Garden?


That approach would probably work.


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## tech-novelist

Diana7 said:


> So do you guys think that women who have been hurt by men should distrust all men?


If men could abuse women without fear of penalty, that would probably be a good approach to take.
However, that's not the case in current society, whereas the reverse is true: women can abuse men and society in general will take the women's side.
That's why I recommend treating women with extreme caution.


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## tech-novelist

Mybabysgotit said:


> although i'm not a big fan of the progressive crap (or capital letters..lol) going on in our country, especially in california, i don't have an issue with women. if they want to empower themselves, so be it, it's just like any other race /gender, etc. to each his/her own


The problem is when "empowering" means "being allowed to abuse others without consequences".


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## tech-novelist

ccpowerslave said:


> I can say having been around California girls my entire life I think The Beach Boys had it right.
> 
> So many people live here there is someone for everyone. You can find people with the values you want OP but you may have to dig through a bunch to get there.


Fewer people live there every year. I wonder why that is?
No, wait, I think I know. Your government is .


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## tech-novelist

Diana7 said:


> Can you not see that blaming all people for what one or two did is just madness? Would you like to be hated and blamed because of what another person has done?


It is not sensible to blame others for what one or two do.
But what is sensible is to realize that it is very hazardous to get involved with a woman in any jurisdictions where misandry is the rule.


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## lifeistooshort

tech-novelist said:


> If men could abuse women without fear of penalty, that would probably be a good approach to take.
> However, that's not the case in current society, whereas the reverse is true: women can abuse men and society in general will take the women's side.
> That's why I recommend treating women with extreme caution.


Caution is always good. Just because men can't abuse women legally doesn't mean they don't bring other issues that make our lives difficult.

And since most women that are killed are killed by hb's or bf's I'd say abuse is still a big concern for us 

I have also observed that a lot of men think a little too much with the wrong head. We've all seen it......she's crazy/unfaithful/broke but she's sooooo hot. Prioritize the things that matter to you or don't complain.

We are in agreement about dealing with people we don't know. I think one reason I couldn't do OLD is because I need time to know someone before I can really think of him in a romantic way. I met my bf in a club and was able to get to know him a bit without either of us still looking elsewhere online and getting distracted. It's been the same with most of the men that have been in my life.

You get vibes from people when you're able to spend low/no pressure/expectation time with them.


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## lifeistooshort

gr8ful1 said:


> Interestingly, I‘ve taken that approach to business, and it’s served us extremely well. While my competitors have contracts that lock customers in whether or not they’re getting a good product/service, we don’t. We don’t ever take our customers for granted since they could literally walk away at any time. Thing is, they don’t because we are doubly motivated to give them a great experience, and we’re quick to make right anything that isn’t. The idea that “we win when our customers win” has proven true in great measure. I trust nobody would argue that relationships where neither take the other for granted are better.


Good approach. I think in general people value relationships and dislike contracts that reinforce poor service. That's why a lot of service providers no longer use them.

Knowing a company will take care of you and you're free to leave is worth a lot to a lot of people.


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## In Absentia

lifeistooshort said:


> Caution is always good. Just because men can't abuse women legally doesn't mean they don't bring other issues that make our lives difficult.
> 
> And since most women that are killed are killed by hb's or bf's I'd say abuse is still a big concern for us
> 
> I have also observed that a lot of men think a little too much with the wrong head. We've all seen it......she's crazy/unfaithful/broke but she's sooooo hot. Prioritize the things that matter to you or don't complain.
> 
> We are in agreement about dealing with people we don't know. I think one reason I couldn't do OLD is because I need time to know someone before I can really think of him in a romantic way. I met my bf in a club and was able to get to know him a bit without either of us still looking elsewhere online and getting distracted. It's been the same with most of the men that have been in my life.
> 
> You get vibes from people when you're able to spend low/no pressure/expectation time with them.


I'm surprised you've actually taken time to reply to that...


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## Diana7

tech-novelist said:


> If men could abuse women without fear of penalty, that would probably be a good approach to take.
> However, that's not the case in current society, whereas the reverse is true: women can abuse men and society in general will take the women's side.
> That's why I recommend treating women with extreme caution.


I treat everyone the same, men and women. I have in fact seen more men act badly but there are bad people in both sexes. Thankfully they are not the majority.


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## Diana7

lifeistooshort said:


> Caution is always good. Just because men can't abuse women legally doesn't mean they don't bring other issues that make our lives difficult.
> 
> And since most women that are killed are killed by hb's or bf's I'd say abuse is still a big concern for us
> 
> I have also observed that a lot of men think a little too much with the wrong head. We've all seen it......she's crazy/unfaithful/broke but she's sooooo hot. Prioritize the things that matter to you or don't complain.
> 
> We are in agreement about dealing with people we don't know. I think one reason I couldn't do OLD is because I need time to know someone before I can really think of him in a romantic way. I met my bf in a club and was able to get to know him a bit without either of us still looking elsewhere online and getting distracted. It's been the same with most of the men that have been in my life.
> 
> You get vibes from people when you're able to spend low/no pressure/expectation time with them.


Its no different to meeting people on line. I met my husband on line and we very soon met up in person. In less than a week in fact. 
By that time we had got to know each other pretty well via dozens of emails.


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## lifeistooshort

In Absentia said:


> I'm surprised you've actually taken time to reply to that...


Why?

I try to have discussions where it might be possible because I think it's good for everyone.


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## LisaDiane

Al_Bundy said:


> For example......It's easy to tell guys to avoid gold diggers. So what are we supposed to do, drive a corolla and wear clothes from Goodwill? Wear a Timex watch? Eat at Olive Garden?


Are you saying those things are beneath you? I'm really asking if that's what you think.


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## Livvie

LisaDiane said:


> Are you saying those things are beneath you? I'm really asking if that's what you think.


Yeah. I know plenty of people who drive Toyotas, have a Timex and last time I noticed, Olive Garden was packed.


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## MattMatt

_*Moderator Note:- *_This thread is now closed at the request of @ArthurGPym.


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