# Hi! I'm a nice guy..



## chasethislight (Jul 8, 2011)

Hi, i'm a "nice guy".

_*I've been typing and trying to formulate correctly my feelings for the past 2 hours and I didn't notice until know that I actually typed up a pretty hefty piece of text, so my apologies for the length.._

I'd like to show my appreciation to everyone on these fora, your tips and insights are amazing, it feels good to finally be able to connect to other people's stories and know I'm not alone in this.

Having said that, i'd like to share with you a war of the worlds that's going on inside of me (for years) but before I do I'll give a little background info which might (or might not) be of value to the situation.

Me and the misses have been together for almost 10 years and have been married for almost 1 (a legal thing, but nonetheless we were both kinda excited we got married). We're both 24 so I guess americans would define us as high-school sweethearts . We've both had our fair share of living, meaning, we're both from 'broken' homes, we always had to work for everything we have ourselves, we've been going to the US together (vacations) alone since we were 15, we've seen our own house go up in flames due to our neighbours (crackheads) and we both have our masters degree. What i'm trying to convey is that we're fighters, independent people while still always remaining a 'front'.

We love eachother to death and we're completely sure we've found soulmates in eachother since we click on every aspect of live (it's almost ridiculous), but one. Sex. 

Sex has been a main issue for me this relationship. Ofcourse the sex was there when the relationship started (sometimes even TOO much for my taste). But then like a year or so into the relationship, after we went on a camping trip together, the sex just stopped. We didn't have sex for that week while camping (since we were still kinda young and maybe prude in that way) so I thought nothing of it. And it's not like i needed sex every given moment of the day. But when we got back, weeks later though still nothing had happend, and the weeks turned into months and eventually would turn into years.

And while time passed, the resentment and confusion from my side went up and down. One period of time I was burning inside with the injustice I felt was done to me, while at other days I felt I had to 'suck it up' since I was NOT going to be an ******* boyfriend who thought relationships should be about having sex; I was better than that. I'm a quiet, controlled, intellectual person and she knows pretty much from day 1 that expressing feelings is an obstacle for me (obviously i HAVE intense feelings, I have a very hard time converying them since I always feel words don't come out right and I'm afraid she might take it the wrong way because of it). Also, both her sister's husband's were very 'macho' men in ways that they would drink whenever they wanted to, were fairly inconsiderate to the needs/request of their wives etc. I noticed her sisters would vent to her about their husbands so obviously I was not going to be like THAT.

Back to the sex issue.. I always had this theory it was her, that she was stressed, or her birth control pill lowered her testosteron level so her libido was non-existent, maybe she went asexual etc. etc. Every week I would have a new theory that would make even more sense as to why she would not have sex with me. Afer all, we were a great couple and clicked in all ways possible and I was always supportive of her, the communication was great (obviously to SOME extend) and I did all kind of things for her. Sometimes the rage would kill me inside and I would go for almost a week without saying a single word, I was dying inside, not so much of not having sex in general but I felt so incredibly neglected, put aside and dismissed: there was no intimacy as far as I was concerned. And then I would brush it off again, "relationships are not about sex", "men always want more sex than women, I'm sure that has been proven some way or another", "I'm so happy with her, I guess I COULD do without sex if that's what she wanted, since clearly she does", etc..

Until like a year or two back, when the feelings bottled up inside would spill over and I would just burst out in tears because the of 'injustice' that was inflicted on me by her. Eventually she would pull it out of me (sometimes after hours) that I wasn't happy about the sex situation in our relationship, that everytime I would initiate sex in those years I would be dismissed with whatever classic line you could think of (headache, tired, etc.). I've learned that she was not asexual at all and it bothered her too, but she felt that every physical contact we had was a lead-up to sex, and she was probably right since I was so incredibly frustrated at times (after times of being filled with resent and not talking nor giving physical contact in whatever way possible, I always went back to giving her the benefit of the doubt and trying to initiate against my better judgement).

This was an eye-opener for me. Us not having sex probably had more to do with ME than her. Since then I've been on a 'quest' to try to understand these situations better and eventually to better myself and fix our relationship (or marriage, whatever you want to call it ). I found this forum a week ago and it has been such a tremendous relieve for me that I'm NOT one-in-a-billion, but that this is in fact fairly common (to some extend). I have been letting the 'alpha-male' theories sink in and it's starting to make sense, I got the 'No more Mr. Nice Guy' book and while reading it felt like I was punched in the chest: the book described ME in such a ridiculously accurate way. I don't really have male-friends I hang out with, I'm always (not consciously though) seeking 'approval' of females around me, basically I'm not a guy-guy, a macho-man, or an Alpha male. I thought I was (i was highly educated, highly driven, tatted up, in good shape, I could really 'talk' to women and was always VERY considerate of their feelings and needs, how could I not be the perfect man? "Man v2.0"?). That was a reality check, but a good one since I WANT to change for the sake of our relationship so bad that pin-pointing all my flaws is more of an eye-opener than that it acutally hurts my feelings, I'm done with being the beta-male I turned into.

So basically the reason why I'm posting here in the first place is because I'm still puzzled about my situation. Obviously I've read the book (the nice guy book) yesterday and A LOT became clear about my way of being and thinking and how this was a vicious circle (a long, big circle in my case).

My goal is to become the 'Alpha' again in our relationship, but there's just one problem: we never fight or really have conflicts, we go along great and agree pretty much on everything so I can't really use the conflicts to my 'advantage'. I feel I have to become 'Alpha' for her to 'notice' me sexually/physically again because she obviously wants sex, just not with me (i'm in good shape and look fairly good (kinda weird saying that) so that's probably not it) since when we're in bed at night watching tv she would, in the most inconspicuous way without really moving or whatever, masturbate while still watching tv (or pretending to). This has freaked me out at first, but after a while I (me and my ways..) saw this as an 'invitation' for sex and 'went for it' but ofcourse got shot down every time. I figure now it must be the emotional, unconscious side of it all that she probably has little respect for me (she doesn't SHOW me disrespect, but the whole no-sex-for-years-situation obviously speaks for itself).

Want I need y'all's help for is what do I do to gain her respect back? I always have cleaned the house, done the dishes, done the ironing and folding laundry as it was my way of contributing to the household since she works way more hours than I do. But, after reading 'No more Mr. Nice Guy', these 'selfless' acts were probably not selfless at all (I was probably always expecting appreciation in the way of sex).

*My problem is, how do I become the Alpha again, the person she respects and looks up to, the man she desires mentally and physically?* I'm very confused about this.. I mean, I like our house to be neat so obviously I'll keep doing what I do to keep it nice but then again, what if THAT's what makes her look at me like a doormat?

It has been a crazy last week for me, I found out so much about myself and can explain my behaviour now as if I were an obvjective person (obviously my dad never being available for me molded me to the man I am now, I always said "I'll never be like him" but that actually back-fired as well to some extend ). I feel blessed having found this wealth of information and experiences here in these fora, so I just want to thank y'all again just for that..

Thanks for reading..


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Whoa... a bible, but at least it's in paragraphs! Yay!

Personally I would start playing the jealousy game again in your shoes. But that's just me, I have a rather screwed up problem on the flip side of all this however.


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## chasethislight (Jul 8, 2011)

Hey thanks for your reply, I've been reading about your situation as well and it seems you're going through some rough times, hang in there!

Well the thing is with playing the jealousy game is that (to me) it will lead to nothing but (unnecessary?) conflict, so I'm not too sure about that.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Thanks =)

Why avoid conflict by the way? from sounds of things you are already in conflict; things ain't right. And I'm quite curious about whether she's having an affair or not. It seems you two are 'best friends' - which is great, as the missus and I are too, but erm, we're more then just 'friends' due to our intimacy. There's something odd about her behaviour, you mentioned this started after camping, what happened there?

As for the jealousy game, there's a trick to it; stick to your boundaries - nothing TOO physical, but don't hold back when it comes to arousing the opposite sex, flirt - but call it 'fun-flirting' or 'joking'. Tease the missus when she gets jealous, etc etc. In other words, keep your bases covered, so you can't be accused of anything - hell I learnt that from the missus lol.


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## chasethislight (Jul 8, 2011)

I understand you suggesting the 'jealousy game' thing a little more, thanks . I'm not sure I can pull that off though, cause I have already been checking girls out (this happens almost never, but still) 'out of spite' when say, we're driving the car and my head turns a little to check out a lady. Ofcourse I hope she notices but then again, it immediately makes me feel like a 'pig' when she does. I think it makes her feel unwanted, not sexy and undesirable, which to me is far from the truth. 

I'm can say with confidence she's not in a affair, thanks for suggesting though . Mainly because that's how my parents split up and she's disgusted with the whole situation (so am I). I'm not sure what it was after that camping trip that triggered her not being physical with me anymore, I can't recall an 'incident' or anything else specific, maybe she just didn't 'felt like it' anymore?

We are indeed best friends, and I have indeed wanted to yell at her sometimes that it feels we're 'roommates' as opposed to lovers but it never really comes to that point. The reason I don't want conflict is that I don't want to FIGHT about this, I want to fight FOR us and I'm not sure if conflicts leads us to the right way.

Does that make sense?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Erm, looking isn't really that strong to arouse jealousy, I'm talking more flirtateous endeavours lol

I still don't get your missus, no sex for years and she's entirely cool with it seemingly? Either then masturbating, then turning you down? Have you talked to her about this? I don't get it.

Anyways if you want to fight FOR you two, sometimes you have to attack the issues themselves which does mean... yes, fighting with her. Conflicts won't lead you to the right way but resolving conflicts will - and in your shoes, you're already in a conflict, just delaying resolving it for years it seems.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Welcome to the forum.

Listen, you may not realize it but you already won half the battle already. Just recognizing the things you already recognize now, imagine the millions of men throughout history who never even got to where you are today.

Now, the point is to take your knowledge, and put into actions and behaviors.



chasethislight said:


> Hi, i'm a "nice guy".
> 
> _*I've been typing and trying to formulate correctly my feelings for the past 2 hours and I didn't notice until know that I actually typed up a pretty hefty piece of text, so my apologies for the length.._
> 
> ...


Careful on the soulmates.

This double edge sword, a feeling of security or accomplishment maybe inside you, but perhaps causing you to act and behave in ways more like a brother or a son to your wife, than her man and lover.

To give subtle attitude that you know yourself you are a desirable male to many other women, this keeps in check often the behaviors to put your woman on pedestal, leading to boredom or even resentment in relationship.

Flirting with your woman, teasing (lightly) your woman, encouraging her to put effort to win YOUR attention, these things keep boredom away, and remind your woman she has attracted a worthwhile man. 



> Sex has been a main issue for me this relationship. Ofcourse the sex was there when the relationship started (sometimes even TOO much for my taste). But then like a year or so into the relationship, after we went on a camping trip together, the sex just stopped. We didn't have sex for that week while camping (since we were still kinda young and maybe prude in that way) so I thought nothing of it. And it's not like i needed sex every given moment of the day. But when we got back, weeks later though still nothing had happend, and the weeks turned into months and eventually would turn into years.


WHile a man able to control or restrain himself sexual is noble and demonstrates many good things, do not fall into trap that sex is dirty or bad or such tings.

And don't fall for the notion sex is unimportant to a woman either!

Just understand the critical role hypergamy plays concerning a woman's desire for a man.



> And while time passed, the resentment and confusion from my side went up and down. One period of time I was burning inside with the injustice I felt was done to me, while at other days I felt I had to 'suck it up' since I was NOT going to be an ******* boyfriend who thought relationships should be about having sex; I was better than that. I'm a quiet, controlled, intellectual person and she knows pretty much from day 1 that expressing feelings is an obstacle for me (obviously i HAVE intense feelings, I have a very hard time converying them since I always feel words don't come out right and I'm afraid she might take it the wrong way because of it). Also, both her sister's husband's were very 'macho' men in ways that they would drink whenever they wanted to, were fairly inconsiderate to the needs/request of their wives etc. I noticed her sisters would vent to her about their husbands so obviously I was not going to be like THAT.


Consider as well you were noticing her sisters really BRAGGING about their husbands, and not so much venting.

Taking a woman's words too literally, not always the way to success. 

Watch her actions.



> Back to the sex issue.. I always had this theory it was her, that she was stressed, or her birth control pill lowered her testosteron level so her libido was non-existent, maybe she went asexual etc. etc. Every week I would have a new theory that would make even more sense as to why she would not have sex with me. Afer all, we were a great couple and clicked in all ways possible and I was always supportive of her, the communication was great (obviously to SOME extend) and I did all kind of things for her. Sometimes the rage would kill me inside and I would go for almost a week without saying a single word, I was dying inside, not so much of not having sex in general but I felt so incredibly neglected, put aside and dismissed: there was no intimacy as far as I was concerned. And then I would brush it off again, "relationships are not about sex", "men always want more sex than women, I'm sure that has been proven some way or another", "I'm so happy with her, I guess I COULD do without sex if that's what she wanted, since clearly she does", etc..


NOw I hope you see that a man being a martyr for your woman, is only leading to misery!



> Until like a year or two back, when the feelings bottled up inside would spill over and I would just burst out in tears because the of 'injustice' that was inflicted on me by her. Eventually she would pull it out of me (sometimes after hours) that I wasn't happy about the sex situation in our relationship, that everytime I would initiate sex in those years I would be dismissed with whatever classic line you could think of (headache, tired, etc.). I've learned that she was not asexual at all and it bothered her too, but she felt that every physical contact we had was a lead-up to sex, and she was probably right since I was so incredibly frustrated at times (after times of being filled with resent and not talking nor giving physical contact in whatever way possible, I always went back to giving her the benefit of the doubt and trying to initiate against my better judgement).
> 
> This was an eye-opener for me. Us not having sex probably had more to do with ME than her. Since then I've been on a 'quest' to try to understand these situations better and eventually to better myself and fix our relationship (or marriage, whatever you want to call it ). I found this forum a week ago and it has been such a tremendous relieve for me that I'm NOT one-in-a-billion, but that this is in fact fairly common (to some extend).


VERY common.



> I have been letting the 'alpha-male' theories sink in and it's starting to make sense, I got the 'No more Mr. Nice Guy' book
> 
> 
> 
> ...


YOu can, you just not seeing conflicts for what they really are at all yet. But we will fix that!



> I feel I have to become 'Alpha' for her to 'notice' me sexually/physically again because she obviously wants sex, just not with me (i'm in good shape and look fairly good (kinda weird saying that) so that's probably not it) since when we're in bed at night watching tv she would, in the most inconspicuous way without really moving or whatever, masturbate while still watching tv (or pretending to). This has freaked me out at first, but after a while I (me and my ways..) saw this as an 'invitation' for sex and 'went for it' but ofcourse got shot down every time. I figure now it must be the emotional, unconscious side of it all that she probably has little respect for me (she doesn't SHOW me disrespect, but the whole no-sex-for-years-situation obviously speaks for itself).
> 
> Want I need y'all's help for is what do I do to gain her respect back? I always have cleaned the house, done the dishes, done the ironing and folding laundry as it was my way of contributing to the household since she works way more hours than I do. But, after reading 'No more Mr. Nice Guy', these 'selfless' acts were probably not selfless at all (I was probably always expecting appreciation in the way of sex).
> 
> *My problem is, how do I become the Alpha again, the person she respects and looks up to, the man she desires mentally and physically?* I'm very confused about this.. I mean, I like our house to be neat so obviously I'll keep doing what I do to keep it nice but then again, what if THAT's what makes her look at me like a doormat?


It could be.

How does she behave when you do these tings? Does she notice? Compliment your work? 

Also, is she happy working these more hours than you or is she doing it because whatever reason she HAS to? Maybe resentment in her role herself.

NOt the end of the world to be a house husband, but more to be watching out for regarding resentment, respect, and sexual attraction.



> It has been a crazy last week for me, I found out so much about myself and can explain my behaviour now as if I were an obvjective person (obviously my dad never being available for me molded me to the man I am now, I always said "I'll never be like him" but that actually back-fired as well to some extend ). I feel blessed having found this wealth of information and experiences here in these fora, so I just want to thank y'all again just for that..
> 
> Thanks for reading..


Concerning your housework, toot your own horn often, brag about what you do, and give the attitude you take ownership of what you doing because YOU want to do for your own satisfaction, NOT becasue you bribing your woman for sex.

If there is resentment, allow your woman to take ownership of some things if necessary.

Also be aware if you are giving her impresssion she is such a lousy housekeeper that you are having to do it.

Concerning being around men, find or resume a hobby or interest that gets you around men. Avoid socializing too much with women friends, how you react to women "friends" probably giving you many bad habits concerning sexual attraction you not even realizing.

For example, years ago at my career I made it my business to simply remove myself everytime from woman majority social conversations, and to refuse to listen to woman complaining about her husband/boyfriend, etc. Ironically, almost immediately, many these same women then flirting more with me, or coming to me privately wanting to talk and be more toucy feely, so much some of my male friends joke that I put something in the water. 

But the point is, remove yourself from "friend zone" situations, and you remove yourself from "friend zone" habits and behaviors.

Again, understand hypergamy, and then lack of sex becomes distant memory!


Concerning conflict, if there is no conflict, then there is only appeasement. Create for yourself reason for conflict, such as starting your hobby, or engaging in sports, something that YOU enjoy and want to do.

Conflict, it is not always mean, or angry, or destructive.

Conflict is OPPORTUNITY to show in action and behavior your woman the man she is married to.

So start by finding and doing someting for your wife to BRAG to her girlfriends about you. 

I wish you well.


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## HEAVEN (Jul 8, 2011)

i was stunned to here that you help with the chores around the house i have been married for 33 years and my husband never helps me your wife should be greatful i'm. it's really awesome when you here a couple being soul-mates i sadly didn't marry my soul-mate,anyway you have to let her know how you are feeling honey your feelings are just as important as hers you two are lucky to have each other but be honest open up to her let her know how you feel. you sound like an amazing guy i wish i had married someone like you with emotional feelings towards your wife it great when a husband takes the time to care about his wifes emotions god bless you both may your marrige prosper and revive itself just as it was when you both met.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Never Fear Conflict 

This it vital for effective communication & understanding of each other. 

Anytime I hear of a couple who never fights, my initial thought is "God that must be boring!" , I've even said this out loud to people. Then I think --someone in that relationship is NOT sharing how they truly feel with the other & is building a silent resentment wall , thier needs being mercelessly trampled. 


Relationship Conflict: Healthy or Unhealthy

Sounds like a decent book on this Amazon.com: We Can Work It Out: How to Solve Conflicts, Save Your Marriage (Perigee) (9780399521379): C. Notarius, Howard Markman: Books

Excellent article on Communication here Imagine Hope Counseling Group - Our Resources - PLANTING THE SEED OF INTERDEPENDENCE - I quoted what is says about the FIGHTING part of marraige.




> 5. Interdependent couples fight! They fight in a healthy way and do not fear or avoid healthy conflict and uncomfortable feelings in their marriage. Because they are able to express their genuine feelings when they occur, they are able to show anger in a healthy way, without rage. When they do show their feelings in an unhealthy manner, they are able to recognize their relapse, realize what deeper issues have been touched, and forgive themselves without spiraling in shame. They are also able to forgive their partners for their mistakes. Interdependent couples recognize that to deny feelings is to deny who we truly are. They accept that the full range of emotion is to be real. They know that without expressing genuine emotion, the feelings will run their lives and take over in the form of addictions or other counterproductive and unhealthy behaviors.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

chasethislight said:


> I'm can say with confidence she's not in a affair, thanks for suggesting though . Mainly because that's how my parents split up and she's disgusted with the whole situation (so am I). I'm not sure what it was after that camping trip that triggered her not being physical with me anymore, I can't recall an 'incident' or anything else specific, maybe she just didn't 'felt like it' anymore?


Just because a cheater may show abhorrence to infidelity, doesn't mean he/she is not engaging in it.

Cheaters are very good at finding ways of deceiving their spouses. If you go to the 'coping with infidelity' forum you'll find posters whose cheating spouses were able to have their affair(s) for years before their unsuspecting spouses discovered it(them).

If she has not had sex with you and she is cheating on you, there may be traces of another man's semen on her undergarments. Get them tested for the presence of semen.

Get a VAR - voice activated recorder - and place it in her car. Install a keylogger on your computer to find out what possible secret email accounts she may have set up and read any email she may be sending to another man.

Call me paranoid but a years long sexless marriage is not something that just happens overnight. And while there may be an innocent explanation other than an affair, you would be a fool to discard it as a possibility to your situation.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Chase.............RUN!


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Go to marriedmansexlife.com. Good reading.

Get Atholk 's book. Married man sex life primer , from kindle or amazon. It's great at describing being alpha and creating lust in your wife by being more alpha and manning up.

Good journeying, my friend!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You will get plenty of good advice.

Let me break it down to it's essence ...

You are little more than 2 decades old. Destabilize this relationship if you want to save it. Unless you wish to live with little to no physical intimacy with your 'soul mate' for the next 4 decades or more.

Something must change. The Something MUST be you.


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## chasethislight (Jul 8, 2011)

*BBW*: Thank you for your incredible insight. Just like the Nice Guy book, you help me shift my thought process and how i see but SHOULD see things regarding this relationship. Ie. the part about her sisters actually _bragging_ was a face-palm moment.. 

The 'hypergamy' makes complete sense in this scenario, and helps explain the 'alpha-male' situation, it's all so clear when you look at it this way. 

Regarding some other stuff, she works a lot of hours because she likes the work she does but also because we're saving up since we're moving to the US in february. She's just as a 'neat-freak' as I am and she indeed does complement me on cleaning the house and such, I don't think she feels I make her feel like a slob or anything.

*HEAVEN*: Thanks 

*SimplyAmorous*: Makes perfect sense, I always seemed to have a very black and white view on conflicts (conflicts = negative fighting). Good reading stuff,thanks!

*moritur*i: Thanks for your concern, but I'm 100% positive she's not having an affair  I feel she wants to make this work as much as I do, but I think she doesn't know what to do. Obviously, since most of the (right) work should be done by me now.

*Hoosier*: Nah, I've never ran away for anything in my life and don't plan on changing that 

*alpaomega*: Indeed, this is like a perfect followup to the nice guy book . I've read the exerpts and it makes so much sense, this is probably a MUST-READ for me to progress further and get things back on track with us so I'll def get my hands on that book soon. 

The misses doesn't know I'm on this 'self-bettering-quest-to-better-this-relationship' and I don't know if I want to tell her (yet). Isn't it weird if I go out and get this book and go read it ,'out of the blue' as it will appear to her? I mean i feel kinda akward about it. I know I'm doing this for US but then I'm afraid it might end up looking like everything is about sex for me again (like all the reconcilliation attempts earlier looked like I only did it for one single cause, which I guess was true to some extend..)..

*Deejo*: Thanks for the insight, this is exactly how I perceive it. I feel I've made the choice to change for the sake of us and I'm going to do it.


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## chasethislight (Jul 8, 2011)

Also as a follow-up about the 'married men sex primer'.. I can't help feeling it promotes fairly manipulative ways to reach a 'selfish' goal, I can get over this obviously but I'm afraid my wife will see it for exactly that.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

As a caveat ... do not let your spouse know that you are pursuing ANY of this. Don't let her know about the books, don't ask her what she 'thinks' of any of the changes you are making.

Sharing those things although seeming upfront, honest, and open, are absolutely and utterly counterproductive to what you are trying to do.

More sex is a corollary of your actual goal ... having a better and more fulfilling marriage.

Why people see a course of action with an outcome of 2 happy participants in a relationship as 'manipulation' I simply can't get my head around. Yes. Work on that.

Your wife is consciously rejecting and avoiding your intimate advances . Dude ... THAT is manipulation. But nobody calls it that.
We are simply suggesting that you do the same thing in reverse. 

Why would you want to stay married to someone that isn't attracted to you, and doesn't want to be intimate with you? 

Did you get married to be her BFF?

You are treading very, very, familiar ground here. If you have questions, ask.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

chasethislight said:


> Also as a follow-up about the 'married men sex primer'.. I can't help feeling it promotes fairly manipulative ways to reach a 'selfish' goal, I can get over this obviously but I'm afraid my wife will see it for exactly that.


Manipulation. That is often spoken of how these things come across at first.

But, these changes, are like I say is the same analogy as learning to play a musical instrument well.

The master guitarist or pianist, can they not affect emotional response by playing softly, or loudly, or by using the proper scales to effect a happy piece, or a melancholy piece? 

Do we ask are they being manipulative? Or do we ask if they are being "controlling"? Of course not!

Because the audience is choosing to enjoy the music, and wish to enjoy the emotional journey that the master musician is taking them on.

These things we call sexual relatoinships, they are not much different. 

And concerning "Selfish": When you consider female hypergamy, and the scales begin to fall from your eyes (and they will) concerning how prevalent it is through our sexual existence since primal times even to this very second, you may also have a facepalm moment when you realize how sexy your woman will see you when you truly act and behave as the man worthy of being "selfish".

A woman, she is not afraid of a selfish man.

But she is not tolerant of a decieving man. The deception built into the "nice guy" archetype (bribery for sex).

So that is why I encourage all good men, be BOLD expressing your selfish desires, have fun with them, leave NO DOUBT in your woman's mind that you are a sexual man and she is the one lighting the sexual fire in you, and that your sexual fire is burning for her. 

She will love you for showing the strength, courage, and having enough faith in her to allow her the privilege of exploring her own feminine desires and fantasies with you.

And she will reward you for such "selfishness" mightily!


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

chasethislight said:


> Also as a follow-up about the 'married men sex primer'.. I can't help feeling it promotes fairly manipulative ways to reach a 'selfish' goal, I can get over this obviously but I'm afraid my wife will see it for exactly that.


As much as I promote honesty in a marriage, as a wife I will admit that I could see this as a means to only get in to my pants - especially if you have expressed discontent with your sexual relationship before - and it would not make me happy. So I would not necessarily show her all of these materials.

Instead, I would show her your intent by your actions. I think that all of us want to be selfishly loved and desired and placed above all others by our partners - but we want that intent to be honest and genuine, not manipulative.

I am kind of curious about the camping trip where everything seemed to change. Did the trip involve just the two of you?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

BigBadWolf said:


> A woman, she is not afraid of a selfish man.
> 
> So that is why I encourage all good men, be BOLD expressing your selfish desires, have fun with them, leave NO DOUBT in your woman's mind that you are a sexual man and she is the one lighting the sexual fire in you, and that your sexual fire is burning for her.
> 
> ...


Reading this I'm reminded of the man who believed the moon is made of green cheese. Just because he believed it didn't make it true. She might realise you're a sexual man, that she lights the sexual fire and it burns for her and STILL not give a short, sharp sh*t about screwing you. Read Athol K's blog. He points out that all the alpha'ing up only works if both people are (cosciously or unconsciously) willing to work toward the goal. If they BOTH aren't on board, forget it.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Reading this I'm reminded of the man who believed the moon is made of green cheese. Just because he believed it didn't make it true. She might realise you're a sexual man, that she lights the sexual fire and it burns for her and STILL not give a short, sharp sh*t about screwing you. Read Athol K's blog. He points out that all the alpha'ing up only works if both people are (cosciously or unconsciously) willing to work toward the goal. If they BOTH aren't on board, forget it.


:iagree:

I think this is true. There could be many, many reasons why a wife would be unwilling to work it out with their spouse. If she is unwilling to better the relationship as well, you may as well as try to fly to the moon. 

However, that isn't a reason for a man not to better himself anyway. If he is bettering himself for only a selfish gain - trying to get more sex - he may find himself sorely disappointed as most women are quite capable at sniffing out these kinds of tactics and would find them rather insulting.

If he is bettering himself for only selfless gain, well, most women would find that appealing. Whether that will translate into more sex would depend on the woman. YMMV


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## chasethislight (Jul 8, 2011)

It's a confusing situation but I'm glad that Enchantment agreed with my statement about being open about the book would _most likely_ be counterproductive.

I might or might not buy the ebook to read it on my phone or whatever since I think I grasp the essentials of 'manning up'/becoming alpha and would like to explore that first as an 'experiment' to see if i understand it the way I think I do.

Since my brother is semi-obsessed with body-building, he's a very macho guy and all his other body-building buddies are as well. I was thinking about going to the gym with him and work out with them since I've been doing calisthenic exercises so I can shape up more (i'm not really out of shape, but I'm by no means "michelangelo's david"), with this I'll have the physical aspect of becomming alpha covered as well as being amongst man-man's .

I want to be bold and agressive about stuff, but I don't think I can back it up at this point of time. All the rejections haven't so much crippled me, but it did it's fair share of breaking down my self-esteem a little regardless of me not showing it. 

So yeah, I've been feeling better already since my opening post, I feel i have a sense of direction, a focus and I almost feel like telling everyone about it including my misses. But I'm not, since that'll most likely only result in her thinking this a new masterplan to get in her pants. It essentially IS, but it's more about HER wanting me to get into her pants AS WELL.

Thanks for all the support guys!


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

chasethislight said:


> So yeah, I've been feeling better already since my opening post, I feel i have a sense of direction, a focus and I almost feel like telling everyone about it including my misses. But I'm not, since that'll most likely only result in her thinking this a new masterplan to get in her pants. It essentially IS, but it's more about HER wanting me to get into her pants AS WELL.


You may also want to explore the other side of the coin while you are contemplating your manning up. Women don't just want a guy who has character and integrity and is 'manned up'. They also want that guy to be genuinely concerned about meeting their needs as well. There may be things hidden in your relationship in regards to what your wife really wants from it and you that she isn't getting and that you need to ferret out and address. I just saw a poster today note that you can't get into a woman's pants if she's unhappy about the relationship - and your 'nice guyness' could be only one aspect of that.

Ideally, both of you should be equally concerned about prioritizing the other's needs, but since she isn't here and you are, you get to take the first step. Here's a good place for you to go to begin thinking about whether there are unresolved needs that SHE has that aren't being met: How to Meet Emotional Needs

I would also recommend the books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "The 5 Love Languages". The love languages has a web-site where you can take a quiz to determine what your 'language' is. Home - Five Love Languages Now these books I can recommend that both of you read together, if she's willing.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Deejo said:


> As a caveat ... do not let your spouse know that you are pursuing ANY of this. Don't let her know about the books, don't ask her what she 'thinks' of any of the changes you are making.


This is truth.

A woman, she is not going to respond to this positively by "talking" about it.

And the worst of the worst, to ask her permission, don't do it!

Even myself, after years later of turning my own marriage and sex life around, to the point now where I have as much or more sexual engagement with my wife as I did when we were dating (and by far more erotic), and working to distil down these things I have seen, experienced, tried, implemented, and share on this very forum, do think my wife wants to "talk" about the mechanics of male dominance or female hypergamy? Or how to analyze or dissect some recent fitness test?

No, she doesn't. She has flat out said as much.

But she loves the dynamics of seeing and feeling and experiencing these things put into action, the end result, her own actions speak much louder than words.

Be bold with your woman, but be bold from your own desires and vision of what you intend for your marriage, not that you are studying a book or speaking to strangers on a forum.

Again, when we go to the music hall, we do not go to hear the master musician discuss with words the tedious mechanics of the music, or for him to list the notes or scales of the melodies.

We go to experience the end result, putting his practice and knowledge to work as his hand touches his instrument, producing the magic.

As well, he doesn't stop to ask permission to play soft or loud, or to play happy or melancholy. 

He has already charted his journey, he is inviting his audience along to share the experience.

Do these things you need to do in the same spirit.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Deejo said:


> As a caveat ... do not let your spouse know that you are pursuing ANY of this. Don't let her know about the books, don't ask her what she 'thinks' of any of the changes you are making.
> 
> Sharing those things although seeming upfront, honest, and open, are absolutely and utterly counterproductive to what you are trying to do.


Because if she perceives what you're doing as playing mindgames to get into her knickers (and she might see it that way), you're not merely in the pot but round the u-bend.



> Your wife is consciously rejecting and avoiding your intimate advances . Dude ... THAT is manipulation. But nobody calls it that.
> We are simply suggesting that you do the same thing in reverse.


I don't agree. It isn't being manipulative. It's being very upfront about the fact that someone doesn't want to shag you. Saying 'I don't want to do something because I don't feel like it, it's usually [email protected] and I can't be bothered' isn't manipulative - it's upfront.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> If he is bettering himself for only selfless gain, well, most women would find that appealing. Whether that will translate into more sex would depend on the woman. YMMV


There is no such thing as selflessness. It doesn’t exist.


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## fredless (Jun 12, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> Go to marriedmansexlife.com. Good reading.
> 
> Get Atholk 's book. Married man sex life primer , from kindle or amazon. It's great at describing being alpha and creating lust in your wife by being more alpha and manning up.
> 
> ...





chasethislight said:


> Also as a follow-up about the 'married men sex primer'.. I can't help feeling it promotes fairly manipulative ways to reach a 'selfish' goal, I can get over this obviously but I'm afraid my wife will see it for exactly that.


I would say that it is "manipulative" if the only reason you are making these changes is for sex. 

I made a post about a similar topic in another thread and I'm going to repeat it here:




> I think a lot of this comes down to semantics and nothing more. Obviously, true "gaming" is manipulative, particularly if one is not being true to oneself.
> 
> For years, my wife and I had sex only 3-4 times per month. Our marriage was otherwise quite good. For lack of a better word, I was Super Beta Man. I am a great father and I easily do my share of mundane household chores. I am thoughtful and considerate of my wife's feelings/thoughts. I really am a very nice guy.
> 
> ...


The changes you make have to be for you. If they're not, your wife will see through them as the manipulations they are. If they are real, your wife will see this as well--and that can be a very good thing.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Reading this I'm reminded of the man who believed the moon is made of green cheese. Just because he believed it didn't make it true. She might realise you're a sexual man, that she lights the sexual fire and it burns for her and STILL not give a short, sharp sh*t about screwing you. Read Athol K's blog. He points out that all the alpha'ing up only works if both people are (cosciously or unconsciously) willing to work toward the goal. If they BOTH aren't on board, forget it.


What sort of wife must she be to feel that way and stay married? And what sort of woman must she be to stay married to her H and take from him what he gives her while she feels that way about him? Surely that is a woman with zero credibility and the man is better off without her and she better off without him.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

AFEH said:


> There is no such thing as selflessness. It doesn’t exist.


Agree. "Selflessness" may not have been the best choice of word. The intent was to indicate an action that is done without manipulation or requiring/expecting a response from another, but I couldn't think of a single word for that.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

AFEH said:


> What sort of wife must she be to feel that way and stay married? And what sort of woman must she be to stay married to her H and take from him what he gives her while she feels that way about him? Surely that is a woman with zero credibility and the man is better off without her and she better off without him.


She could simply be the kind of wife who has a husband who really cares little for her except for what's in her 'knickers' and what she does around the house or for the kids, in which case he would have zero credibility. I've seen many of these kinds of stories on the forum. In many cases, I think there are just as many emotionally starved wives as there are sexually starved husbands (actually I think there may be a one to one correlation between the two), so it's often best to look at both sides of the coin. 

However, we're just generalizing now since we don't know the OP's wife.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> Agree. "Selflessness" may not have been the best choice of word. The intent was to indicate an action that is done without manipulation or requiring/expecting a response from another, but I couldn't think of a single word for that.


In marriage and in all relationships we do things with the expectations of a response!!! So by this definition we are all manipulating one another!

We play tennis. We hit the ball over the net. We expect the ball to come back. Is that manipulation? If it never comes back we give up playing with that person!!

Lets get real here. Each and everyone of us do things for selfish reasons. We all want something back for what we do. Otherwise we stop doing it. Or pick our ball up and go play somewhere else. In this case it’s sex. But a lot of guys don’t do the right things to get sex from their wives! Their “game” is way off base. All the guys here are doing is helping others improve their game.

I talk as a man who had as much sex as he ever wanted from the woman he loved over a period of 42 years. BBW and the other guys are right, more or less spot on with what they are teaching here.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> She could simply be the kind of wife who has a husband who really cares little for her except for what's in her 'knickers' and what she does around the house or for the kids, in which case he would have zero credibility. I've seen many of these kinds of stories on the forum. In many cases, I think there are just as many emotionally starved wives as there are sexually starved husbands (actually I think there may be a one to one correlation between the two), so it's often best to look at both sides of the coin.
> 
> However, we're just generalizing now since we don't know the OP's wife.


My understanding of these things is that a wife of a Mr Nice Guy is unlikely to be emotionally starved. She may feel though kind of all “crept over”.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

AFEH said:


> My understanding of these things is that a wife of a Mr Nice Guy is unlikely to be emotionally starved. She may feel though kind of all “crept over”.


Yes, if the husband is the kind of guy who is literally "smothering" their spouse. But that still means her emotional needs as a person are not getting met. We all have a need to have some amount of "breathing space" as a person - both physically and emotionally.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> Yes, if the husband is the kind of guy who is literally "smothering" their spouse. But that still means her emotional needs as a person are not getting met. We all have a need to have some amount of "breathing space" as a person - both physically and emotionally.


Your answer is why men should never listen to women in these matters!


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> In marriage and in all relationships we do things with the expectations of a response!!! So by this definition we are all manipulating one another!
> 
> We play tennis. We hit the ball over the net. We expect the ball to come back. Is that manipulation?


No, but it's not playing tennis. Playing tennis is hitting the ball over the net in the expectation that the other player can't return it. Playing to win. What you're describing is a knock-around



> If it never comes back we give up playing with that person!!


Or you learn to actually play tennis better so you can have a REAL game, not just nonce about with a racket in your hand.



> Lets get real here. Each and everyone of us do things for selfish reasons. We all want something back for what we do. Otherwise we stop doing it. Or pick our ball up and go play somewhere else. In this case it’s sex. But a lot of guys don’t do the right things to get sex from their wives! Their “game” is way off base. All the guys here are doing is helping others improve their game.
> 
> I talk as a man who had as much sex as he ever wanted from the woman he loved over a period of 42 years. BBW and the other guys are right, more or less spot on with what they are teaching here.


I haven't been married as long as you, but I have as much sex as I want, when I want, with a willing, enthusiastic partner, without playing p*ssant little head games. Maybe I just don't get the disconnect between "Manning up" and "alphadom" and low-level sneakfest games.

I don't dispute that what BBW and others, especially someone like MEM, says is good effective advice. But it is NOT perfect, works in every case, 100% guaranteed, cast-iron money back advice. _It may not work_. 

Athol K, who is quite possibly the very best resource on the subject, makes that point. He makes it several times. He points out that there are other, positive outcomes to doing what he suggests, so you personally gain no matter what, but that the main objective, more sex with your wife is NOT guaranteed. If Athol K is saying that, I think it bears listening to.

If you're going to do this, be prepared that it might not work and have a plan B, and if necessary plan C too.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Your answer is why men should never listen to women in these matters!


How so? Not sure I understand your point.

I am not sure I would agree with listening to only men. You need to understand how women work to some degree too. Otherwise you are missing the whole other half of the equation, imho.

I think that if we would ever be able to get the viewpoint of many of these wives in these situations (which we don't see at all on the forum - we get only one-sided stories), it could actually be very illuminating.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> How so? Not sure I understand your point.
> 
> I am not sure I would agree with listening to only men. You need to understand how women work to some degree too. Otherwise you are missing the whole other half of the equation, imho.
> 
> I think that if we would ever be able to get the viewpoint of many of these wives in these situations (which we don't see at all on the forum - we get only one-sided stories), it could actually be very illuminating.


Men need to understand about men, themselves, better. My goodness if I was in a relationship where I didn’t have sex for a week let alone a year or more I’d get myself seriously physically and psychologically checked out.

Try and understand women????? Ha! Impossible I say. And once you think you’ve understood them they go and move the goal posts. Manipulative you say? You bet they are. And they know it. Be a man for the sake of being a man is enough in and of itself. And being a man for the sake of what a man provides for his woman will keep his woman with him. Be who you were meant to be, not some gender neutral person who simply doesn’t know how to get sex from his woman.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> I haven't been married as long as you, but I have as much sex as I want, when I want, with a willing, enthusiastic partner, without playing p*ssant little head games. Maybe I just don't get the disconnect between "Manning up" and "alphadom" and low-level sneakfest games.


That all sounds very b!tchy to me.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> I talk as a man who had as much sex as he ever wanted from the woman he loved over a period of 42 years.


Which makes you sound like a bitter old codger who's narked because no-one's listening. Fair's fair. You yank my chain, I'll pull back.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Which makes you sound like a bitter old codger who's narked because no-one's listening. Fair's fair. You yank my chain, I'll pull back.


Ha! Even more bitter.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Which makes you sound like a bitter old codger who's narked because no-one's listening. Fair's fair. You yank my chain, I'll pull back.


You know what really does mess me off. That’s people like you who I don’t see helping others out much. All I see people like you doing is knocking those that put time and energy in helping others out.

It’s not as though the people they help out don’t appreciate that help. In fact there’s a few men here who others take time to write down and show their appreciation for.

I just don’t get people like you who knock the good people here that help others out. I am not bothered with your answer. Not at all bothered. Just saying, that’s all.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Sawney Beane said:


> I don't agree. It isn't being manipulative. It's being very upfront about the fact that someone doesn't want to shag you. Saying 'I don't want to do something because I don't feel like it, it's usually [email protected] and I can't be bothered' isn't manipulative - it's upfront.


When the subtext is "I don't feel like doing A, but I will be very upset if you stop doing B." It's manipulation, upfront or not.

Nobody claims it's perfect. Nobody claims that your wife or partner will wake up one day a reborn nymphomaniac. As you stated, and most here state ... a sexless marriage is a symptom of a bigger, wider issue. The ladies tend to focus on the getting into the pants piece and wrinkle their nose ... for me, that simply isn't the end-game.

Trying to understand, are you saying you just don't 'get' the advice being given to guys in dysfunctional relationships, or you simply don't agree with it?

Most guys come here wanting to salvage the relationship they are in. Along they way, based upon working on themselves, they discover the relationship _isn't_ salvageable, or is never going to be what they need ... that is part of the process too. That's Plan B.

It isn't about tricking your way into a woman's pants. It's about making the genuine realization whether she wants YOU in her pants at all.

Seems to not be an issue in your case, that's why I'm curious about your position.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Sawney Beane said:


> Which makes you sound like a bitter old codger who's narked because no-one's listening. Fair's fair. You yank my chain, I'll pull back.


Let's stop touching each others 'No-no' place ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Which makes you sound like a bitter old codger who's narked because no-one's listening. Fair's fair. You yank my chain, I'll pull back.


Look how off base you are, how far you are out of touch. The “180” that people talk about and follow in the Coping with Infidelity forum. That was me. I introduced the 180 to TAM. Before that, Men were getting down on their knees pleading with their wives. It wasn’t pretty and it was totally ineffective. The 180 doesn’t need me now, other Men have picked it up are running with it and helping others out. “Boundaries for Men”. Again boundaries were not spoken about on TAM except for use of the forum itself and so I introduced boundaries and again its helped many others out.

No one’s listening? Righto.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Deejo said:


> <snip>
> Trying to understand, are you saying you just don't 'get' the advice being given to guys in dysfunctional relationships, or you simply don't agree with it?
> 
> Most guys come here wanting to salvage the relationship they are in. Along they way, based upon working on themselves, they discover the relationship _isn't_ salvageable, or is never going to be what they need ... that is part of the process too. That's Plan B.
> ...


Fair question. It boils down to you asking this:
_Trying to understand, are you saying you just don't 'get' the advice being given to guys in dysfunctional relationships, or you simply don't agree with it?_
I don't "get" how game playing and being a better man are one in the same. Bettering yourself I "get" completly - no reasonable person could disagree that bettering yourself is a good thing. I just don't see how duplicity and mind games are "betterment".

I don't disagree with the advice. I think the broad tone of the advice (look better, be fitter and stronger, more decisive) is excellent and makes total sense. What I'm uncomfortable with is the implication that it works for everyone, every time. The failure to, (and in some cases an apparent wish to not admit) that there are sitations that this can't address. The apparent failure to accept that "manning up" is not a panacea. Manning up is like penicillin - fantastic stuff but there are things it doesn't work for.

_Nobody claims it's perfect. Nobody claims that your wife or partner will wake up one day a reborn nymphomaniac._ With all due respect, that is precisely what a hell of a lot of people *do* claim! That's my issue. Your caveats are lost in the general clamour that "this can't fail".

_It isn't about tricking your way into a woman's pants. It's about making the genuine realization whether she wants YOU in her pants at all._ Again, there are a hell of a lot of people who aren't getting this. THEY see it as a way of tricking sex out of a woman, and once the woman sees that's what they're doing, they've dug themselves deeper into the sh*t.

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I haven't had to play mind games to get sex with my wife. Then again, I've put the effort in from day one, so maybe I'm like Gary Player - "the harder I work the luckier I get".


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

This can't fail? B.S.

This can't HURT is what's put forth.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Men need to understand about men, themselves, better. My goodness if I was in a relationship where I didn’t have sex for a week let alone a year or more I’d get myself seriously physically and psychologically checked out.
> 
> Try and understand women????? Ha! Impossible I say. And once you think you’ve understood them they go and move the goal posts. Manipulative you say? You bet they are. And they know it. Be a man for the sake of being a man is enough in and of itself. *And being a man for the sake of what a man provides for his woman will keep his woman with him*. Be who you were meant to be, not some gender neutral person who simply doesn’t know how to get sex from his woman.


Um, wow. Sorry - didn't mean to touch an obviously sore spot. 

And you know - not all women are manipulative. And there are a fair number of men who are manipulative too. If you've ended up with a manipulative person, you have perhaps chosen poorly, imho. 

The part I bolded is basically what I've been saying - unless you believe that the only things a man needs to 'provide' a woman is sex and material things/financial security. If that is what a man believes, it is no wonder his woman wouldn't be happy. I would think that women also want to feel the security that their man loves them and desires them above all else and others - not necessarily financial security, as much as emotional security. Many women, self included, can provide their own financial security.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> Um, wow. Sorry - didn't mean to touch an obviously sore spot.
> 
> And you know - not all women are manipulative. And there are a fair number of men who are manipulative too. If you've ended up with a manipulative person, you have perhaps chosen poorly, imho.
> 
> The part I bolded is basically what I've been saying - unless you believe that the only things a man needs to 'provide' a woman is sex and material things/financial security. If that is what a man believes, it is no wonder his woman wouldn't be happy. I would think that women also want to feel the security that their man loves them and desires them above all else and others - not necessarily financial security, as much as emotional security. Many women, self included, can provide their own financial security.


You keep assuming, poking, prodding, testing. Making up things, it’s truly amazing but exceedingly feminine! What is it, wrong time of the month? And you say you don’t manipulate! Ha! May even be one heck of a lot of passive aggression in there. Who knows?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AFEH said:


> You keep assuming, poking, prodding, testing. Making up things, it’s truly amazing but exceedingly feminine! What is it, wrong time of the month? And you say you don’t manipulate! Ha! May even be one heck of a lot of passive aggression in there. Who knows?


What, no spanking her and sending her out of the clubhouse?!
You disappoint me Bob. :moon:


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

AFEH said:


> You keep assuming, poking, prodding, testing. Making up things, it’s truly amazing but exceedingly feminine! What is it, wrong time of the month? And you say you don’t manipulate! Ha! May even be one heck of a lot of passive aggression in there. Who knows?


I think this kind of talk is completely unwarranted. It doesn't even dignify a response. Shame on you.


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## chasethislight (Jul 8, 2011)

Thanks everyone for all of you're replies, even the rather philisophical debate about whether something IS or IS NOT. Understand that, while I understand people are trying to make an honest effort helping me, I tend to skip, with all due respect, 'trivial' debates like these.

Having that said, I sense there's some confusion about my motives. I somestimes tend to 'over-explain' and simplify things in such a matter that it actually takes away from the initial motivation to do so in the first place. 



Deejo said:


> It isn't about tricking your way into a woman's pants. It's about making the genuine realization whether she wants YOU in her pants at all.


I thank you Deejo, for stating this, for it seems I have a hard time being clear about things sometimes .

For example, I voiced not having sex in my relationship and turning this fact around was the initial incentive for my 'quest'. Though along the way when I started diving into the 'psychology' of a relationship, the fact that I wanted to turn around the lack of sex _turned into me wanted to have more intimacy_. I started to _understand_ what I was really going for/missing; it was *not* about sex, the mechanical part, it was about *core intimacy of a relationship*. And when I understood that, I started seeing correlations between feeling and acting the way I did (and ofcourse I started to see (and later on _analyze_) her behaviour as a repsonse to that as well). This resulted in understanding (and facing..) the fact that I had a great share (if not FULL share) in this: *I created this*. 

The Nice Guy book helped me a great deal in 'proving my point' to myself. It's quite appaling when you read about behaviour and mind processes being so incredibly twisted but nonetheless so _relatable_; it was an eye-opener for me (yet again).

So with this _reality_ unfolding in front of my eyes and sinking in (very important), I figured *this was not the man who I wanted to be*. This resulted in, for me, that not having sex in my current relationship has diminished as my main focus, it is now about bettering myself as a person, *it's about being the person I thought I'd be when I said I would never be like my dad*. 

So this quest will turn out to be the most selfish thing I'll have done to date, this is *all about me now*. 

The fact that the relationship will more than likely 'fix' itself as a result of me becoming the person who I really want to become, is absolutely fantastic. As weird as it sounds, I can read people incredibly well, but in the case of my wife I probably tended to _translate/explain_ these messages I got into something I _wanted_ to read/see. 

The fact that I'm realising these things now makes it indeed feel for me I'm already PAST the halfway point of becoming the better person I long to be. I feel there's a weight lifted, I somehow feel I'm radiating/beaming/glowing for some reason.

So, as many of your replies have guided me in this realisation I just wanted to thank you again for that. I think it's hard to grasp the profoundness of this situation for 3rd persons, but my mind's been a rollercoaster for the last week and I am truly grateful for this.

Thanks..


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Mate, seduce the missus, treat her like you have to make her fall in love with you all over again. Don't really know how else to help ya.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

chasethislight said:


> Thanks everyone for all of you're replies, even the rather philisophical debate about whether something IS or IS NOT. Understand that, while I understand people are trying to make an honest effort helping me, I tend to skip, with all due respect, 'trivial' debates like these.
> 
> Having that said, I sense there's some confusion about my motives. I somestimes tend to 'over-explain' and simplify things in such a matter that it actually takes away from the initial motivation to do so in the first place.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup:

Sounds like you are off to a great start!


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## Kevan (Mar 28, 2011)

chasethislight said:


> For example, I voiced not having sex in my relationship and turning this fact around was the initial incentive for my 'quest'. Though along the way when I started diving into the 'psychology' of a relationship, the fact that I wanted to turn around the lack of sex _turned into me wanted to have more intimacy_. I started to _understand_ what I was really going for/missing; it was *not* about sex, the mechanical part, it was about *core intimacy of a relationship*. And when I understood that, I started seeing correlations between feeling and acting the way I did (and ofcourse I started to see (and later on _analyze_) her behaviour as a repsonse to that as well). This resulted in understanding (and facing..) the fact that I had a great share (if not FULL share) in this: *I created this*.


It's wonderful to hear you say this. It took me years to get to the same realizations--and I'm twice your age.

Lack of sex can be both symptom and cause of lack of intimacy. Address the lack of intimacy by working on yourself (where working on yourself includes an acceptance of your own worth and your own desires, _a la_ BBW), and your sexual connection will improve as a matter of course.


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## chasethislight (Jul 8, 2011)

Hey all, a little update from my part since there's been some 'stuff'.

This weekend, when I talked to my brother about working out with him (he was very excited about the idea btw ), when me and my wife got home and while getting to bed, she said, "how much crunches do you think I can do"? I was like, wtf!? But I answered (since I've been doing calistenics for a while, I know just popping out a bunch of crunches isn't as easy as it sounds), I said "probably 20, 25". She gave me a weird look and told me she expected me to say something in the range of 40 or 50. Nevertheless, she went and did around 25 and proved my point. I just looked at her and smiled thinking 'wtf did just happen?'. I have absolutely no idea where this came from, but oh well, just thought I'd share.

Another thing, it turned out she was really upset with me TELLING her that I'd go and train with my brother for 2 or 3 times this week and see if I like it. She said she didn't like it all that I didn't ask her, "maybe I wanted to work out as well". As a response to that, I went and looked up this gym in our town where you could work out for 4 bucks a week and told her I'd be down with doing this with her but I'd STILL be going to work out with my brother. She basically told me that she didn't really felt like she'd have the time nor energy (she works a lot, and odd hours sometimes too) nor that we should invest in that money-wise. Again, I was thinking "wtf?", but she was all fine after this.

So I obviously got my ass trashed in the gym by my brother  and he told me I'd be really sore the next day. And indeed I was, I could hardly lift my arms (we've been training upper- and lowerback + triceps (he has muscle-group routines since he workes out 6 times a week)) that day but to me it felt good nonetheless. That night I let myself fall over on the bed with my clothes on so I could just lay down for a couple of minutes before getting ready to go to bed. My wife was about to go brush her teeth but jumped on the bed suddenly and she just sat down on me (I was face-down, so basically she sat on my butt). She started giving me a massage out of nowhere and I said, hold on I'll take my shirt off. So she goes on for a couple of minutes and ask if I wanted some tiger balm on my muscles to which I answered sure. So she got it and put it on me and after that she said, "and now put some on your balls" to which I replied "go ahead" and she just kinda smiled it off. When she almost left the room to go brush her teeth she said "you're really that desperate?" to which I just basically smiled (this caught me off-guard and I obviously had no idea how to respond to this).

I have been hugging her throughout the day and kissing her goodnight for a couple of weeks, as well as cuddling with her before going to sleep. This for me is to mainly to show HER that I can/want to be affectionate without expecting that it has to lead somewhere. I actually french kissed her the other night before going to sleep and I totally caught her off-guard since when we were done I saw 'something' in here eyes. After the kiss I just rolled off of her and told her goodnight babe, and she told me she loved me and how nice I was.

On a last note, communication. I also try to make a conscious effort as to not say "i love you" after every hug or whatever since I feel I might have smothered her with that in the past (?) and I _think_ it's more "alpha" and meaningful to not say it every hour of the day. Same with telling her she looks great (she does though ), normally I'd basically tell her every day that she'd look good, now I cut that down too to maybe a couple of times a week now. After everytime she got home from work the first thing I used to say was "hey babe, how was work?". I stopped saying that HALF OF THE TIME hoping SHE would initiate conversation instead of me asking how her day was. The reason for the change in communication for me is that in _my perception_, "alpha" also means being a tad more 'distant' than a complete "beta", *am I right in thinking this?*


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

chasethislight said:


> The reason for the change in communication for me is that in _my perception_, "alpha" also means being a tad more 'distant' than a complete "beta", *am I right in thinking this?*


In thinking that it means 'distant', it sounds like you are still attempting to follow a recipe, but don't completely understand why. I commend you for your progress, but, in a sense, you have to start thinking like an alpha before it becomes natural. 

Guess what? When you put it into words, women can find it abrasive if they don't really understand that the alpha part of you is coupled with a genuine, strong love for her.

Let me give a scenario two different ways: In one example, your first thought when coming home is to want to know how her day was, so you always ask. You suddenly start trying to be more alpha, so you just don't ask as much. Not really alpha, is it?

In another scenario, you want to know how her day went, but you know that she will be equally interested in what has been going on through your day. Probably even more. So, most days, you kiss her and just go with the flow. Some days, if she is preoccupied, you ask. Other days, you decide that its much more important to trap her in the corner of the kitchen and melt her socks with the way you kiss her neck.

I've read the dynamics in your relationship, and think that you are on the right track. At some point, you don't just think that you have the ability to make her delirously happy, you know it. Because of how you impact her world, you expect nothing other than it. That confidence will be visible to her. Your goal becomes less about the sex and more about making her breath catch.


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## thinner (Feb 28, 2011)

Good thing you didn't let her put the tiger balm on your balls. I don't think I'd ever get that desperate....burrnnn.


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## chasethislight (Jul 8, 2011)

*Halien*: Thank you for your reply. What you're saying makes sense. I AM indeed following a recipe (my own nonetheless), but it is entirely made up out of common sense, research and trial & error.

My problem is just finding out the correct amount of 'alpha'. I realize that being 'alpha' does NOT mean act like a macho *******, but since I'm a beta guy all my life, it's hard to balance the two.

I indeed also feel way more confidence with all this already. For example, every time the misses asks me a question, anything, I NEVER answer in an indecisive way anymore, it's either this or that, yes or no, as opposed to earlier when I'd just answer either "i don't know" or something that I thought she WANTED to hear.

I've been very conscious about keeping myself happy, doing what I like, being more assertive in that way (I'm not hurting my misses in any way though). I think that that's showing as well.

*thinner*: Haha, I had no intentions on getting that stuff on my nether-regions. I saw her comment as 'hint' or 'invite' to something else and I was just playing along to see where it would go.. Nowhere obviously


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

thinner said:


> Good thing you didn't let her put the tiger balm on your balls. I don't think I'd ever get that desperate....burrnnn.


The workout pain reminds me of an old story (sorry for the length):

The Workout

For my birthday this year my wife purchased me a week of private lessons at the local health club. Though still in great shape from when I was on the varsity chess team in high school, I decided it was a good idea to go ahead and try it. I called and made reservations with someone named Tanya, who said she is a 26 year old aerobics instructor and athletic clothing model. My wife seemed very pleased with how enthusiastic I was to get started. They suggested I keep an "exercise diary" to chart my progress.

Day 1. Started the morning at 6:00 AM. Tough to get up, but worth it when I arrived at the health club and Tanya was waiting for me. She's something of a goddess, with blond hair and a dazzling white smile. She showed me the machines and took my pulse after five minutes on the treadmill. She seemed a little alarmed that it was so high, but I think just standing next to her in that outfit of hers added about ten points. Enjoyed watching the aerobics class. Tanya was very encouraging as I did my sit ups, though my gut was already aching a little from holding it in the whole time I was talking to her. This is going to be GREAT.

Day 2. Took a whole pot of coffee to get me out the door, but I made it. Tanya had me lie on my back and push this heavy iron bar up into the air. Then she put weights on it, for heaven's sake! Legs were a little wobbly on the treadmill, but I made it the full mile. Her smile made it all worthwhile. Muscles ALL feel GREAT.

Day 3. The only way I can brush my teeth is by laying the toothbrush on the counter and moving my mouth back and forth over it. I am certain that I have developed a hernia in both pectorals. Driving was OK as long as I didn't try to steer. I parked on top of a Volkswagen. Tanya was a little impatient with me and said my screaming was bothering the other club members. The treadmill hurt my chest so I did the stair monster. Why would anyone invent a machine to simulate an activity rendered obsolete by the invention of elevators? Tanya told me regular exercise would make me live longer. I can't imagine anything worse.

Day 4. Tanya was waiting for me with her vampire teeth in a full snarl. I can't help it if I was half an hour late, it took me that long just to tie my shoes. She wanted me to lift dumbbells. Not a chance, Tanya. The word "dumb" must be in there for a reason. I hid in the men's room until she sent Lars looking for me. As punishment she made me try the rowing machine. It sank.

Day 5. I hate Tanya more than any human being has ever hated any other human being in the history of the world. If there was any part of my body not in extreme pain I would hit her with it. She thought it would be a good idea to work on my triceps. Well I have news for you Tanya. I don't have triceps. And if you don't want dents in the floor don't hand me any barbells. I refuse to accept responsibility for the damage, YOU went to sadist school, YOU are to blame. The treadmill flung me back into a science teacher, which hurt like crazy. Why couldn't it have been someone softer, like a music teacher, or social studies?

Day 6. Got Tanya's message on my answering machine, wondering where I am. I lacked the strength to use the TV remote so I watched eleven straight hours of the weather channel.

Day 7. Well, that's the week. Thank goodness that's over. Maybe next time my wife will give me something a little more fun, like a gift certificate for a root canal.


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

BigBadWolf said:


> Manipulation. That is often spoken of how these things come across at first.
> 
> But, these changes, are like I say is the same analogy as learning to play a musical instrument well.
> 
> ...


Wow. Love this music analogy. Best explanation ever.


BigBadWolf said:


> And concerning "Selfish": When you consider female hypergamy, and the scales begin to fall from your eyes (and they will) concerning how prevalent it is through our sexual existence since primal times even to this very second, you may also have a facepalm moment when you realize how sexy your woman will see you when you truly act and behave as the man worthy of being "selfish".
> 
> A woman, she is not afraid of a selfish man.
> 
> ...


:iagree: This. You want sex. So what. It doesn't make you a pervert. And if it does, then you are a pervert. So what. Take what you want, boldly. Go forth and be a man.
Incidentally, the chances that she's not cheating are slim. Secondly, what on earth did you marry someone for in the middle of a years-long drought? Get your head out, man, and get some. "relationships aren't only about sex"? Well, that certainly distinguishes romantic relationships from friendships. What you're in is a friendship. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH SEX. IN FACT IT ROCKS!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SB,
THIS I get. And same as you - I put in lots of effort and basically what I got out of it is a W who has always prioritized me "overall" very highly. 

Then again my viewpoint has always been "It is my responsibility to bring my "A" game. Not to get in your pants but because it is MY responsibility to bring my game for what it says about ME". When I don't like how I am being treated I speak up. Where possible I use humor. When I can't - I still try to keep my delivery calm and constructive. 

I have learned that most of the time being "angry" because she is not prioritizing me the way I want, is the worst possible response. And that doing LESS is the most effective strategy. 

That said - plan B, C and D are:
- An open marriage of some type 
- Separation 
- Divorce 

The great thing about our situation is my W has no "walking on eggshells" to do. She knows that as long as she treats me well she gets total commitment from a fun, playful loving partner. And if she gets difficult and then escalates she is quickly facing someone who has thrown the master emotional "circuit breaker" and is now in "high functioning non-violent sociopath mode". And she is VERY anxious around me when I turn into that guy. 

Because when I turn into THAT guy I say things like: "I thought that overall you were very happy. I accept that I may have badly misread the situation. If you don't wish to continue our marriage I think you SHOULD end it. I don't want you to be unhappy and frankly have no interest in being with someone who does not love me. Given that if you wish to move out you may, alternatively if you wish ME to move out I will get an apartment". 

All said in a flat tone and low affect manner. I don't play poker. I don't bluff. And frankly when she wants to precipice dance she needs a willing partner. And I am in all things a "giver" so the last thing I am going to do is ruin the dance by trying to beg/drag her in off the edge of the cliff. If she wants to lean over the edge and stare into the chasm - I am only to glad to lean over with her. 

While this stuff is rare, it has happened often enough (maybe 5-10 times) in 22 years that I have observed a consistent "post dance" reaction which occurs within 48 hours. And that reaction is oddly similar to how people behave in war when their town has just been bombed to rubble and they have survived. Happy almost giddy they didn't die. And sexually inflamed. 

Oh yeah and one last thing. She is apologetic. Very apologetic. My response to that is a low key "You were upset about some stuff, I am glad you talked to me. Sounds like you feel better now. I am not mad at you". 

My plan A primarily works because she is fully aware of plans b,c and d. 





Sawney Beane said:


> Fair question. It boils down to you asking this:
> _Trying to understand, are you saying you just don't 'get' the advice being given to guys in dysfunctional relationships, or you simply don't agree with it?_
> I don't "get" how game playing and being a better man are one in the same. Bettering yourself I "get" completly - no reasonable person could disagree that bettering yourself is a good thing. I just don't see how duplicity and mind games are "betterment".
> 
> ...


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## CarolinaGirl (Feb 13, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chasethislight (Jul 8, 2011)

Hey all, just wanted to check in after 2+ months to just give a little update on my situation to those who have been such an awesome help to me.

Since my initial few posts i'd decided it was for the best to work on ME for the sake of this marriage and so i did. In order for me to man up i decided i would need to be surrounded by more (alpha-)males. I also felt i had to get back in better, if not excellent, shape (and did). Since my brother is fairly macho and has been hitting the gym bodybuilder style for at least the last 5 years with his friends, it would only make sense for me to ask him if i could join them. He was really excitied about this and i was too, obviously. It took me a few days adjusting to the very macho atmosphere in the weight lifting section of the gym (the talking loud, the screaming/grunting during heavy sets, the 'playful' whisteling and flirting with girls/ladies) but i have since grown accustomed to it. Not only did the relationship with my brother benefit greatly from working out together 5 to 7 times a week, i am now 'one of the guys' which feels really good and reassuring in some way. Also the physical results are showing as well (how can it not after 5+ days a week for 2+ months? ), my chest is puffed up and my arms and legs are toned like crazy, it'd still need a month or 2 to get crazy ripped Peter Andre-abs but then again they're already showing . 

These whole hitting the gym and male bonding things have really upped my confidence. I just feel so much better now, i carry myself differently, i sometimes even give my wife 'macho' replies (MMSL-style) and she totally just takes it with a speechless expression XD.

I also decided that i had to turn down the 'thermostat'. I was the 'hot' in the marriage and i'd always said ILY, and would hold, kiss or grope her (with half of the times resulting in a "can't you see i'm doing___" or a "i'm busy doing this right now, you always have the worst timing"). This all actually resulted (i think) in, when we were chilling on the bed and i was just checking FB on my phone and doing this and that on it, she actually initiated sex (WHICH IS ALIEN TO ME!). I threw her around a little and 'took charge' and i could tell from her eyes and look on her face she was sort of 'overtaken' (in a good way). Then again, this was the only time we DID have sex in the last 2 months but i'm still to this day not initiating or groping but i do hug and kiss her every once in a while (i'm not an ******* ) if she comes and get it.

The thing is, as opposed to the last couple of years me being absolutely FIXATED about sex i somehow feel a little 'detachement' regarding sex seeping in. Nowadays, i feel sex with my W would be great, but i only feel like that maybe 20% of the time, somehow i'm not really dealing with it to the extent i used to anymore. I feel that when we WILL have sex, i'll try everything to rock her socks off and have it feel like it's the last thing we'll do, but untill then i'm also fine with not having it (SOMEBODY PLEASE ANALYSE!).

All in all, i've been living more for myself now, doing things i like, talking to people i like, not sitting around the house waiting for her to come home from work everyday; just things for myself. But when i look back to my first post, our core dynamics have not changed much (i turned into a new (and better) person IMO) but the mainly sexless marriage is still a fact (while the rest of the marriage is great still!). But as i've explained in the paragraph before this one, somehow i'm kind of fine with it?* I mean, i couldn't see me sitting down with her now telling her that this not-having-sex-thing is a complete deal-breaker for me because somehow it isn't ANYMORE*. Somehow i feel so empowered by simply NOT initiating sex anymore, by not giving her the physical (clingy) attention i'd used to but when i really think about it, isn't this behaviour in a way just as twisted as my behaviour a couple of months ago? (somehow i can't be objective anymore as to decide what is 'right' and 'wrong' since to me it feels it's working cause i don't feel like **** anymore.)

On another note, this one morning i was making pancakes when my W was at work and i left her a bunch on a plate with a little note that said something along the lines of (there's no literal translation ) 'hope it tastes well, love you' and left for work. This particulair note still hangs on the fridge to this day. She was completely swept of her feet because of that little note. This made me immediately think of the book about the love languages (my love language is OBVIOUSLY physical affection.. ) and that i SHOULD indeed show her this book to see what hers was (cause her's is OBVIOUSLY NOT physical affection). This leads me to another thing though that i feel (and almost know for certain) she's completely NOT open to any of these relationship/marriage 'helping' books/websites. Also one of the reasons why I don't want to tell her i've been seeking advice about our marriage from anonymous (married) people online since she'd just be weirded out and probably get all defensive that i've "should've talked to her about it instead" (which i did before and it ALWAYS resulted in lots of tears and empty promises of change). Besides that, at sporadic times when i tell myself 'maybe you should indeed rock the boat and tell her this no-sex-thing is a deal-breaker', i immediately feel sex isn't as near as important to me know as it used to so in the end i could never bring myself to say something like that since i don't feel like it's necissarily a deal-breaker (maybe in the long-run yes, but in the present time not really).

So bottom line, the situation has barely changed but i did a 180 and feel so much stronger, masculine and confident but i'm wondering how long this will last? I will continue to work on myself both physically and mentally but i feel we've been in this cycle for so long we will not be able to get out of it on our own strenght but somehow this cycle doesn't feel as destructive as it used to so i'm at loss as what to do?

Thanks again a million, you guys have no idea what insight this forum has brought me!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Chase,
You are doing awesome. Truly. 

It is also true that you need to accept something. The broken/clingy/needy dynamic lasted so long it may not be fixable. 

In the meantime I want you to try something. Try teasing her in a playful way. And try to get her to make it physical (not sexual - but physical). Like take the remote control from her and then put on a show you want and see if she will wrestle you for the remote. And just overpower her. 

Then give her a smack on the butt and get up and walk away laughing. 

And get into a habit of doing that. And drop the temperature a little more by playing a little harder to get. When she says "ILY" just say "I know" and smile. Don't say it back. 

As for mind games you need to understand something. SHE wants to have a sex life also. Just not with you. And that is because of all the prior stuff that happened between you. If you do NOT fix this, she will end up having an affair. So you need to be willing to take some risks because if you don't solve this - game over (eventually). 

You are clearly a smart and driven man. Start focusing more on your job/skills/making money. And LESS on her. I don't mean work more hours. I mean start learning stuff that will help you make more money PER hour. 

And do NOT allow any conversation about children. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Bringing children into a sexless marriage is insane. If she brings it up at any point just tell her you aren't "ready for that" yet. 

You can try all the stuff above. Still, my guess is that you are going to have to do something very painful to "break the pattern". Start steeling yourself for it because you are in a bad place in terms of how she sees you. I think you are going to have to suggest that you date/sleep with other people for a while and see if you still really want to be together. 





chasethislight said:


> Hey all, just wanted to check in after 2+ months to just give a little update on my situation to those who have been such an awesome help to me.
> 
> Since my initial few posts i'd decided it was for the best to work on ME for the sake of this marriage and so i did. In order for me to man up i decided i would need to be surrounded by more (alpha-)males. I also felt i had to get back in better, if not excellent, shape (and did). Since my brother is fairly macho and has been hitting the gym bodybuilder style for at least the last 5 years with his friends, it would only make sense for me to ask him if i could join them. He was really excitied about this and i was too, obviously. It took me a few days adjusting to the very macho atmosphere in the weight lifting section of the gym (the talking loud, the screaming/grunting during heavy sets, the 'playful' whisteling and flirting with girls/ladies) but i have since grown accustomed to it. Not only did the relationship with my brother benefit greatly from working out together 5 to 7 times a week, i am now 'one of the guys' which feels really good and reassuring in some way. Also the physical results are showing as well (how can it not after 5+ days a week for 2+ months? ), my chest is puffed up and my arms and legs are toned like crazy, it'd still need a month or 2 to get crazy ripped Peter Andre-abs but then again they're already showing .
> 
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> In the meantime I want you to try something. Try teasing her in a playful way. And try to get her to make it physical (not sexual - but physical). Like take the remote control from her and then put on a show you want and see if she will wrestle you for the remote. And just overpower her.
> 
> Then give her a smack on the butt and get up and walk away laughing.


It works, it brings out the little girl in the woman.

I was on the beach the other day watching a kiddie of about four. He was running round and round his grandparents brolly when a little girl about the same age came over. She tried to get him to stop running but he was having none of it. Eventually the little girl got fed up and started to go back to her parents. At that time the little boy called out to her with the cutest smile I’ve ever seen, that smile just appeared from nowhere. The little girl came back and just as she got to him he started running round the brolly again and she couldn’t catch him. This game went on for quite a while. I reckon that little lad will have many a woman after him.

I reckon many of us as “adults” simply forget how to play, and especially how to tease and just what fun it can be.


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