# Has loyalty lost it's importance?



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

So many spouses are so disloyal and some in the most brutal ways. Also so many betrayed spouses take them back pretty much downplaying how disloyal that there were to them. The only conclusion I can get to from this is it really isn't a priority for a lot of people today.

Maybe it's because of the level of affluence in modern society that the need for it is not as valuable as it once was. In Eastern and third world society it seems to be much more important. Maybe it has to do with are focus on the individual. Maybe it's just that we are a feelings driven society. 

Are people not taught that this is an important part of being a good person? I know I was.


----------



## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

I think it's just the mentality that society has taken on, always looking for the next best thing. I see it in the work environment as well, it used to be if you stayed with a company for a long time it was a credit to you as an employee. These days I see it more and more that people work at multiple companies over the course of 5-10 years and their reasoning for all this is always the same, I left for a better opportunity and/or more money. Why not work towards that better opportunity and more money where you are, instead of jumping ship for the "quick fix". And it seems that same mentality is all too common in relationship too. Instead of trying to work on making things better and actually solving problems, it seems it's just easier to either move on to the next one or get your fix somewhere else.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Is any of this really different from 10, or 100 or 1000 years ago? Helen of Troy left her husband to run off with Paris


It may appear in the media more often, but that is probably because we have more media.


----------



## ScottishGirl1998 (Dec 19, 2015)

There is a lot less focus on marriage and the principles thereof these days I think, and that goes hand in hand with a lack of loyalty.

For me it is still paramount.


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Is any of this really different from 10, or 100 or 1000 years ago? Helen of Troy left her husband to run off with Paris
> 
> 
> It may appear in the media more often, but that is probably because we have more media.


I think infidelity definitely seems to be more common, and that could be just because of social media. We're just more aware of it because we all can get online and discuss it with each other very easily. I'm not a betrayed spouse and had no idea until I came to TAM. 

Does anyone have stats on just how common it really is?


----------



## ScottishGirl1998 (Dec 19, 2015)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> I think infidelity definitely seems to be more common, and that could be just because of social media. We're just more aware of it because we all can get online and discuss it with each other very easily. I'm not a betrayed spouse and had no idea until I came to TAM.
> 
> Does anyone have stats on just how common it really is?


That is definitely partly the case. 

My grandmother was cheated on terribly by my grandfather in the 1970s, and then by her subsequent two husbands in the 80s and 90s until she decided to remain single for the rest of her life!! Back then though it wasn't discussed publicly and even getting divorced per se (regardless of the reason) was frowned upon, and it was usually considered that the woman must have done something wrong.


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

although there are ebbs and flows throughout history and within societies itself, not to mention 
cultural differences, there does exist certain trends and historical impulses.

Although i agree with post #3 is correct in saying 'there has always been everything', in an actual slice in history there tends to be more or less
of those 'every things'.

I tend to think in western society we are trending towards the late roman empire, decadence, narcissism, self absorption and decay.
it took Rome a couple of centuries to really fall from within, so maybe we have some time before the barbarians come to finish us off.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> I think infidelity definitely seems to be more common, and that could be just because of social media. We're just more aware of it because we all can get online and discuss it with each other very easily. I'm not a betrayed spouse and had no idea until I came to TAM.
> 
> Does anyone have stats on just how common it really is?


Agreed. I don't know how much more common it is now vs we just hear about it more thanks to social media. I personally have seen minimal infidelity (that I know about) in my personal life. Much I have read about comes from TAM, which makes sense why TAM would be heavily slanted with this topic.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> I think it's just the mentality that society has taken on, always looking for the next best thing. I see it in the work environment as well, it used to be if you stayed with a company for a long time it was a credit to you as an employee. These days I see it more and more that people work at multiple companies over the course of 5-10 years and their reasoning for all this is always the same, I left for a better opportunity and/or more money. Why not work towards that better opportunity and more money where you are, instead of jumping ship for the "quick fix". And it seems that same mentality is all too common in relationship too. Instead of trying to work on making things better and actually solving problems, it seems it's just easier to either move on to the next one or get your fix somewhere else.


In my experience this was a direct reaction to the way companies were quick to let people go for profits. Outsourcing a great example of this. Again though this is another example of how loyalty is not very important in a modern society.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think loyalty is the single most important thing. 

I'm starting to see - what may be the first signs of early onset dementia. Hope I'm wrong. 

Anyway - I already have a 'dementia' plan that optimizes M2's environment. Requires us to move - close to her family - which is far away from my family. 





sokillme said:


> So many spouses are so disloyal and some in the most brutal ways. Also so many betrayed spouses take them back pretty much downplaying how disloyal that there were to them. The only conclusion I can get to from this is it really isn't a priority for a lot of people today.
> 
> Maybe it's because of the level of affluence in modern society that the need for it is not as valuable as it once was. In Eastern and third world society it seems to be much more important. Maybe it has to do with are focus on the individual. Maybe it's just that we are a feelings driven society.
> 
> Are people not taught that this is an important part of being a good person? I know I was.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

sokillme said:


> So many spouses are so disloyal and some in the most brutal ways. Also so many betrayed spouses take them back pretty much downplaying how disloyal that there were to them. The only conclusion I can get to from this is it really isn't a priority for a lot of people today.
> 
> Maybe it's because of the level of affluence in modern society that the need for it is not as valuable as it once was. In Eastern and third world society it seems to be much more important. Maybe it has to do with are focus on the individual. Maybe it's just that we are a feelings driven society.
> 
> Are people not taught that this is an important part of being a good person? I know I was.





sokillme said:


> In my experience this was a direct reaction to the way companies were quick to let people go for profits. Outsourcing a great example of this. Again though this is another example of how loyalty is not very important in a modern society.


Security was and still is a higher priority to loyalty. Spouses always cheated, but the betrayed stayed because of security (financial and social). 

Today due to globalization US companies need to restructure to stay in business (security). Loyalty doesn't mean anything when your company goes bankrupt. 

BTW, loyalty also means you stay with a former cheating spouse. Or did you miss that part?


----------



## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

jorgegene said:


> I tend to think in western society we are trending towards the late roman empire, decadence, narcissism, self absorption and decay.
> it took Rome a couple of centuries to really fall from within, so maybe we have some time before the barbarians come to finish us off.


Hey, if a person feels the need to take a picture of their meals and every outfit they wear and post it to instagram, you know society is in trouble.


----------



## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I think its generational. Kids brought up by parents who were youths the 60s (excluding the conservative kids) in particular got a bum deal. Excessive permissiveness, a lack of consequences, and a relativistic philosophy (the opposite of absolute values and boundaries) had a huge impact on subsequent generations. I believe it has resulted in self indulgent, narcissistic, instant gratification attitudes.

Earlier generations had different issues but IMO tended to be less self indulgent perhaps simply due to fewer available resources and a harder upbringing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

My ex-husband was actually a little baffled to discover I was so upset when I learned of his serial cheating. He kept protesting that it wasn't that big a deal, he'd never intended to _leave_ me for any of them. In his mind, staying was loyalty. Whatever he did when he wasn't at home was simply none of my business and didn't impact me at all, so long as it didn't impact the marriage. He's still - nearly 4 years later, pretty resentful about me breaking up our home. After all, he wasn't going to leave me. _I left him!_ I'm the disloyal one. 

And, honestly, I think that his perspective is one that was really the norm for many people in past generations. Staying, keeping the family together, pulling your weight to ensure everyone survived, was loyalty. Marital fidelity was simply a virtue that the very good aspired to. Until fairly recently, there was little real expectation that men were required to be faithful to their wives. Cheating on one's wife wasn't even really frowned on by much of society, it's just the way things were, particularly among the higher social classes where marriages tended to be dynastic rather than romantic arrangements. As long as a man fulfilled his obligations and didn't actually leave his wife and family, he was pretty much free to do as he pleased. Women were generally expected to be as faithful as their husband required. There was no question of a woman leaving her husband - it was both legally and financially impossible until the 20th century in most of the Western world.

So, I'm not sure that loyalty is less valued. But I do think that the perception of what constitutes loyalty has likely shifted some over the course of history. For a very long time, it meant 'I won't leave you.' For a brief, romantic, moment, it meant 'I will be faithful to you.' Now it seems to be edging further into, 'As long as I'm happy, I will be faithful and won't leave you.'


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Rowan said:


> And, honestly, I think that his perspective is one that was really the norm for many people in past generations. Staying, keeping the family together, pulling your weight to ensure everyone survived, was loyalty. Marital fidelity was simply a virtue that the very good aspired to.'


This got me thinking, I saw a clip from The View (don't watch the view lol, was seeing what the buzz was about when Tomi Lahren was on). She brought up how Hillary stayed will Bill while he was unfaithful and one of the hosts tried to spin it around as a positive, that it was a sign of strength that she stayed with him :scratchhead: 

It really is crazy the mentality of some that they would view this as a sign of strength, or in your case, that your ex would blame you b/c he was an ******* ... Sorry you had to deal with all that crap.


----------



## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Rowan said:


> My ex-husband was actually a little baffled to discover I was so upset when I learned of his serial cheating. He kept protesting that it wasn't that big a deal, he'd never intended to _leave_ me for any of them. In his mind, staying was loyalty. Whatever he did when he wasn't at home was simply none of my business and didn't impact me at all, so long as it didn't impact the marriage. He's still - nearly 4 years later, pretty resentful about me breaking up our home. After all, he wasn't going to leave me. _I left him!_ I'm the disloyal one.
> 
> And, honestly, I think that his perspective is one that was really the norm for many people in past generations. Staying, keeping the family together, pulling your weight to ensure everyone survived, was loyalty. Marital fidelity was simply a virtue that the very good aspired to. Until fairly recently, there was little real expectation that men were required to be faithful to their wives. Cheating on one's wife wasn't even really frowned on by much of society, it's just the way things were, particularly among the higher social classes where marriages tended to be dynastic rather than romantic arrangements. As long as a man fulfilled his obligations and didn't actually leave his wife and family, he was pretty much free to do as he pleased. Women were generally expected to be as faithful as their husband required. There was no question of a woman leaving her husband - it was both legally and financially impossible until the 20th century in most of the Western world.
> 
> So, I'm not sure that loyalty is less valued. But I do think that the perception of what constitutes loyalty has likely shifted some over the course of history. For a very long time, it meant 'I won't leave you.' For a brief, romantic, moment, it meant 'I will be faithful to you.' Now it seems to be edging further into, 'As long as I'm happy, I will be faithful and won't leave you.'


If you'd returned the favor, do you think he would have continued to stay with you? 

I read that Hillary had her own affair earlier in their marriage. It's possible that at this point, they have an "understanding."


----------



## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Jessica38 said:


> If you'd returned the favor, do you think he would have continued to stay with you?
> 
> I read that Hillary had her own affair earlier in their marriage. It's possible that at this point, they have an "understanding."




I'm pretty sure the political class has their own definitions of many,many things.

Personally I figured it the Clintons' relationship made sense to me. She's a policy wonk and very bright but not really a people person. He's a brilliant, people oriented person. I believe she admires his intellect and interpersonal skills and he admires her wonky, intelligent, tenacity. Together they wanted to conquer the world, and frankly they did. I believe they relished that together.

I suspect it hurt her to see him "dabble" but I think she accepted that he is a weak man in this way. Plus she may not have the sexual needs that he does - in some instances where sex doesn't mean much to someone they can look the other way (and sometimes are glad that burden is removed).

Anyway that's how I always saw it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> This got me thinking, I saw a clip from The View (don't watch the view lol, was seeing what the buzz was about when Tomi Lahren was on). She brought up how Hillary stayed will Bill while he was unfaithful and one of the hosts tried to spin it around as a positive, that it was a sign of strength that she stayed with him :scratchhead:
> 
> It really is crazy the mentality of some that they would view this as a sign of strength, or in your case, that your ex would blame you b/c he was an ******* ... Sorry you had to deal with all that crap.


Thanks for clarifying that you don't watch The View! LOL. 

It's crazy to me, as well, that someone could spin infidelity. The person that cheated is the disloyal one!


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> Thanks for clarifying that you don't watch The View! LOL.


I have a TAM reputation to uphold ya know :wink2:


----------



## naturepeacelove (Mar 20, 2017)

sokillme said:


> So many spouses are so disloyal and some in the most brutal ways. Also so many betrayed spouses take them back pretty much downplaying how disloyal that there were to them. The only conclusion I can get to from this is it really isn't a priority for a lot of people today.
> 
> Maybe it's because of the level of affluence in modern society that the need for it is not as valuable as it once was. In Eastern and third world society it seems to be much more important. Maybe it has to do with are focus on the individual. Maybe it's just that we are a feelings driven society.
> 
> Are people not taught that this is an important part of being a good person? I know I was.


I have been thinking the same thing lately. I think our society and social media has played a huge part. People don't fix things anymore, they just throw it away and buy a new one- same with people. I think it's so heartbreaking, especially when your morals and ethics go against what society says is perfectly okay. The internet has done wonders but has also done damage to marriages and relationships. Loyalty is something I not only live by but cherish in another human being. It's hard to find that these days...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> BTW, loyalty also means you stay with a former cheating spouse. Or did you miss that part?


No it doesn't. That is called codependency, textbook actually.


----------



## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

It's a throwaway society we live in. If someone is doing something you don't necessarily like, dump 'em, don't bother to fix the relationship. I also think that divorces are too easy to get and much too commonplace, almost to the point where it's the "in thing" to do. People are much to ready to give up on someone rather than have patience with them.


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

you can be loyal with every ounce of decency and strength you have.......but....

there does come a point though that you have to leave. that doesn't (IMO) mean disloyalty.

that's real morality. if i'm being abused physically i better leave. disloyal? no.

BTW, you can still love that person from afar, by praying for them, forgiving them, hoping the best for them (and wishing the 'best' is not always peaches and cream).

loyalty is giving your all, and then some and sticking through hard times. and only leaving when you've tried everything you can think of.


----------



## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> If you'd returned the favor, do you think he would have continued to stay with you?
> 
> I read that Hillary had her own affair earlier in their marriage. It's possible that at this point, they have an "understanding."


Yeah because she wanted to be President. A divorce would have made her unacceptable. That's still another reason why it's so hilarious that she lost. Bethcha she wishes she woulda dumped Bill.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

sokillme said:


> No it doesn't. That is called codependency, textbook actually.




You can't just redefine the words because you don't agree with what I said. 

Oncluded in Loyalty is staying with someone that has otherwise been good and forgiving mistakes. 

That is not the definition of codependency.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't think it's a case of loyalty being less important. I think it's a case of human beings, for the most part, just SUCK. I have no friends because I don't want any - every single one I've had over the years has ****ed me over in some way. I just can't be bothered any more. And I see the way co workers and family act around their friends and it just makes me shudder - they're so FAKE. I want no part of that. I would be quite happy all by myself for the rest of my life because I like who I am. Right now I like who my husband is too, so I like spending time with him. I adore my grandson, but he's 2 - time will tell if he's the kind of person who I want to be with when he's older. And my own kids are pretty good for the most part. I can only take my parents in small doses, my sister and brother live thousands of miles away and I'm glad they do. I just don't like people, because most of them aren't very likable.


----------

