# thoughts and feelings from the LD partner?



## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

Wonderful, loving, good, handsome husband of 25 years and I have JUST entered into a no sex phase of marriage and I am so sad. I honestly could go the rest of my life without sex and only be mildly affected though at times I would definitely feel old and frustrated and very sad. He is a sexual and tactile person who is hurt and disappointed and frustrated and simply cannot take my on and off interest. He is very patient and would and has waited for me to figure it out but the pain is too great for him. He would rather shut it all down than have to deal with repeated rejection and/or a kind but somewhat unenthusiastic partner. For years and years I have had sex or some form of sexual intimacy with him without feeling aroused or with the arousal disappearing within moments of sex. I have also said “no” to him many, many times either verbally or by non verbal signals. Our sexual problems have been with us since the beginning. We have been through the ringer over the past ¼ decade sexually. Me with deep guilt and strong anxiety over the pain I am causing him and him with hurt and anger and helplessness. At my darkest times I fantasize about my death (NOT suicidal just a dark fantasy) freeing him to find a compatible sexual partner. There are LOTS of factors involved. We talk and talk about our issues We have written to each other. We have been to therapy multiple times. I always think it’s getting a little better every time we have some form of sexual intimacy but he has been feeling worse and worse; just so sad that I am not aroused or aroused enough to enjoy him. I am sad too. I will share more of my exact issues (my prompt questions below offer some clues) but this is already long and I'd like to hear from others. 

Here is my question to other LD partners who love their spouses but cannot ever seem to muster enough sexual energy to enjoy sexual intimacy, even when directly participating: are you sexually averse in some way? Have you had to get over a lot of inhibitions only to have them come roaring back? Do you think you just chose the wrong partner sexually and could actually be very sexual with a different partner? Were you abused sexually in some way in your life? Are alcohol or drugs a factor in your sexual energy or do you feel alcohol or drugs affect your partner (the HD partner) in some way? Other thoughts on your LD life in an otherwise loving marriage? I am looking to hear the LD partner’s thoughts and feelings. I have read much about HD partners’ anger and sadness over the fact that their LD partners won’t talk to them about it, won’t get help, won’t change, etc… I’d like to hear more from the LD partners. I am looking for responses from people who care about their spouses as opposed to griping


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Have you ever considered opening your marriage to other partners...?? It sounds like that could help alleviate alot of your painful issues around sex and having your differing sexual needs met...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Have you ever considered opening your marriage to other partners...?? It sounds like that could help alleviate alot of your painful issues around sex and having your differing sexual needs met...


Or, divorce.

Marriage is a sexual relationship


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Livvie said:


> Or, divorce.
> 
> Marriage is a sexual relationship


TRUE...but that is the ideal...sometimes it doesn't work out that way, and the partners don't want to lose their marriage over sex (not for ME, but @maquiscat and @Married but Happy have some understanding of couples like that)


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> TRUE...but that is the ideal...sometimes it doesn't work out that way, and the partners don't want to lose their marriage over sex (not for ME, but @maquiscat and @Married but Happy have some understanding of couples like that)


In this instance one of the partners is deeply upset by the lack of sex and has been for a very long time.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

AggieL said:


> *Here is my question to other LD partners who love their spouses but cannot ever seem to muster enough sexual energy to enjoy sexual intimacy, even when directly participating:* are you sexually averse in some way? Have you had to get over a lot of inhibitions only to have them come roaring back? Do you think you just chose the wrong partner sexually and could actually be very sexual with a different partner? Were you abused sexually in some way in your life? Are alcohol or drugs a factor in your sexual energy or do you feel alcohol or drugs affect your partner (the HD partner) in some way? Other thoughts on your LD life in an otherwise loving marriage? I am looking to hear the LD partner’s thoughts and feelings. I have read much about HD partners’ anger and sadness over the fact that their LD partners won’t talk to them about it, won’t get help, won’t change, etc… *I’d like to hear more from the LD partners.* I am looking for responses from people who care about their spouses as opposed to griping


I’d like to hear more from LD partners too. In my years here, I’ve heard from only a handful. The number who seemed to “love their spouse” might have been just two, IIRC.

At home, my LD/0D spouse has had very little to say on her own experience.

I hope this thread will feel like a safe place for LD folks to share.

OP, I wish you well.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Since you brought it up, _if_ you were sexually abused at some point in your life these issues won't get better until the trauma is dealt with. Obviously I don't know if you were or not but you said the questions could be hints so... If you were sexually abused, and if you haven't already read it, the book "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel van der Kolk is good. Those issues also don't just go away forever and never come back, even with therapy. It gets easier over time but the issues will still come up sometimes and they have to keep being worked on.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm just curious...

Did you know this about yourself prior to marriage? Did you marry as a virgin?

Do you enjoy kissing? Did you make out with your husband prior to marriage? Did it get you excited?

Do you self-pleasure?

Personally, I believe that each spouse has an _obligation_ to work on this aspect of marriage. It's part of the lifelong, monogamous commitment that you made.

And 'I don't feel like it' is inexcusable, and it's frustrating that so many married people view sex as the thing they're free to blow off.

You pay your taxes. You clean the toilets. You tote the children to school. Everyday you do tons of things that you don't feel like doing.

It is your responsiblity to take an active role in making this better. 




AggieL said:


> I honestly could go the rest of my life without sex...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Hi Aggie, do you realise that you can have sex with your husband even if you dont feel like it? When I married my husband I knew that he had been rejected many many times sexually by his former wife, and I made the decision that I would never reject him sexually. Can you make that decision? Sometimes we have to overide our feelings and do what is best for the marriage and our spouse. If we stop haing sex there is a real danger that eventuallty he may go elsewhere for sex, and that would be sad as you clearly love him. As a spouse, I believe its right that we should each meet each other sexual needs(as long as there isnt abuse or you arent being forced to do things etc).


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Surprisingly, there aren't nearly as many active members these days. Maybe they were run off, or maybe they are too busy with real life, which would seem a little bit hard to believe since there are lots of people around the country (US - the majority of posters) and the world who are at home more than ever before. Nevertheless, you might not receive the responses you hope for since there weren't that many low drive posters anyway, I mean not all that many who talked about it.

I hate/loathe/despise the _just do it_ mentality that is so often bandied about on this board. It sounds like you have issues you need to deal with, and your attempts to _just do it_ over the years have proven problematic anyway. So, that's not a solution for you. But, I do wonder if you have ever actively sought any solutions. You say you and your husband went to marriage counseling, but it's not surprising that didn't help since your problems are personal and seemingly deeply ingrained, at that.

Would you like to share with us what sex or the effort to have sex is like for you? Do you otherwise enjoy it except for your personal history? Has it ever felt good to you? Have you been in therapy just for yourself to deal with your history? Have you and your husband seen a sex therapist?

You said your questions provide clues, but we can't know if every question is a clue or just some/most of them. Would you tell us which ones specifically, please? It doesn't appear you posted here looking for solutions or opinions but rather to commiserate with like-minded individuals and to perhaps glean from them, so I will certainly understand if you prefer not to answer my questions.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

At the very simplest of levels, if you can do something for someone that feels very very special to that person, and you care very much about that person, why wouldn't you want to? Why wouldn't a basic empathetic response allow you to feel very good about offering "yourself" to your partner? What makes "sex" so different from so many other things that we might gladly do for someone?

I think it's worth exploring exactly what it is that makes sex so different, and in doing so, perhaps find the answer. But in some cases I believe it's a simple inability to feel empathy. Something's blocked so we become more self-focused and take less joy in what makes someone else happy. And whatever might have caused this could be very deep-rooted and sex itself becomes a trigger. Especially as OP says "Our sexual problems have been with us from the beginning."

Not that I know anything at all about exactly this.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> At the very simplest of levels, if you can do something for someone that feels very very special to that person, and you care very much about that person, why wouldn't you want to? Why wouldn't a basic empathetic response allow you to feel very good about offering "yourself" to your partner? What makes "sex" so different from so many other things that we might gladly do for someone?
> 
> I think it's worth exploring exactly what it is that makes sex so different, and in doing so, perhaps find the answer. But in some cases I believe it's a simple inability to feel empathy. Something's blocked so we become more self-focused and take less joy in what makes someone else happy. And whatever might have caused this could be very deep-rooted and sex itself becomes a trigger. Especially as OP says "Our sexual problems have been with us from the beginning."
> 
> Not that I know anything at all about exactly this.


I don't know your story, but it sure sounds like you are hurt and struggling to understand. I wish it could be reduced down to your simple questions and rationale, but it can't be. And the just do it mentality doesn't work either. Have you asked your questions of the person that mattered? If you did, did they not answer you? What was their response? I realize the deprived person doesn't understand, nor do those who have not been through it, but people have their reasons even if they don't divulge them, and there could be any number of reasons. People who are not familiar don't have the imagination to fathom what those reasons could be. But this lady hinted at a great many reasons, so the just do it mentality can basically be construed as an insensitive affront to her.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

StarFires said:


> I don't know your story, but it sure sounds like you are hurt and struggling to understand. I wish it could be reduced down to your simple questions and rationale, but it can't be. And the just do it mentality doesn't work either. Have you asked your questions of the person that mattered? If you did, did they not answer you? What was their response? I realize the deprived person doesn't understand, nor do those who have not been through it, but people have their reasons even if they don't divulge them, and there could be any number of reasons. People who are not familiar don't have the imagination to fathom what those reasons could be. But this lady hinted at a great many reasons, so the just do it mentality can basically be construed as an insensitive affront to her.


Right, I get where you're coming from regarding the "just do it" mentality, but I think when sex becomes something so vastly different from everything else in life that it becomes that one thing that is seen as a rejection by one partner... it's really tough to explain but I believe it's an indication there's something in the LD partner's past that's causing issues that need to be explored and discussed. There's something blocking empathy for what their partner is feeling, because otherwise why would someone risk losing their marriage over a very basic aspect of... yeah, this is just not forming as nicely as I'd like it to. 

People have their stories, and I guess that's the point. What's going on with the LD partner, in _some_ cases, may have nothing at all to do with their spouse. There may be nothing whatsoever their spouse can do to make things better. The answer may be both simple and complicated at the same time. Complicated because it was allowed to become normal, never dealt with, and goes on for years, maybe decades. It would have been simple, easy to understand, if only it had been known and dealt with early on. 

But I honestly feel that a reasonable start to the conversation may be as simple as "why." As in, why can't I (if I'm the LD partner) just do it. What prevents me from seeing this as something that brings closeness and happiness to my partner in a way I'd want to... help with? And answering that question, which is in fact a variant of "Why can't I just do it? (if there are good things that would come from it)" may get someone closer to understanding the reason.

It's hard, really hard, for me to get away from the idea that there is a deficiency in empathy involved. But I'm going to address OP directly because it's a bit silly to talk about these things 3rd person and risk it becoming about me. Thanks-


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

AggieL said:


> Wonderful, loving, good, handsome husband of 25 years and I have JUST entered into a no sex phase of marriage and I am so sad. I honestly could go the rest of my life without sex and only be mildly affected though at times I would definitely feel old and frustrated and very sad. He is a sexual and tactile person who is hurt and disappointed and frustrated and simply cannot take my on and off interest. He is very patient and would and has waited for me to figure it out but the pain is too great for him. He would rather shut it all down than have to deal with repeated rejection and/or a kind but somewhat unenthusiastic partner. For years and years I have had sex or some form of sexual intimacy with him without feeling aroused or with the arousal disappearing within moments of sex. I have also said “no” to him many, many times either verbally or by non verbal signals. Our sexual problems have been with us since the beginning. We have been through the ringer over the past ¼ decade sexually. Me with deep guilt and strong anxiety over the pain I am causing him and him with hurt and anger and helplessness. At my darkest times I fantasize about my death (NOT suicidal just a dark fantasy) freeing him to find a compatible sexual partner. There are LOTS of factors involved. We talk and talk about our issues We have written to each other. We have been to therapy multiple times. I always think it’s getting a little better every time we have some form of sexual intimacy but he has been feeling worse and worse; just so sad that I am not aroused or aroused enough to enjoy him. I am sad too. I will share more of my exact issues (my prompt questions below offer some clues) but this is already long and I'd like to hear from others.
> 
> Here is my question to other LD partners who love their spouses but cannot ever seem to muster enough sexual energy to enjoy sexual intimacy, even when directly participating: are you sexually averse in some way? Have you had to get over a lot of inhibitions only to have them come roaring back? Do you think you just chose the wrong partner sexually and could actually be very sexual with a different partner? Were you abused sexually in some way in your life? Are alcohol or drugs a factor in your sexual energy or do you feel alcohol or drugs affect your partner (the HD partner) in some way? Other thoughts on your LD life in an otherwise loving marriage? I am looking to hear the LD partner’s thoughts and feelings. I have read much about HD partners’ anger and sadness over the fact that their LD partners won’t talk to them about it, won’t get help, won’t change, etc… I’d like to hear more from the LD partners. I am looking for responses from people who care about their spouses as opposed to griping


OK, you're hitting pretty close to home for me. The rejection issue for the non-LD partner is HUGE. It feels like you recognize this. The damage builds up over the years and hurts the non-LD partner in so many ways. Look up the Ted Talk "The Sex Starved Marriage" and give it a watch. Then ask your husband to watch it with you. I think it might give you a meeting place, something the two of you can both understand and from there, move forward.

I don't think you have much time. You say you have "JUST" entered into a no sex phase of marriage, but in the same paragraph said "Our sexual problems have been with us since the beginning." You say he's a "Wonderful, loving, good husband" but you don't say you can't imagine living without him. There's a sense that you've written the marriage off already, but I can't tell if that might be defensive, a way to make it seem not so bad that he might want out himself.

And then you get into a whole lot of questions that lead into the past, and that's where I can, unfortunately, totally relate. You've got 25 years of issues (maybe a couple before marriage as well?) while I'm going on 43. Our damage was caused by undeclared baggage, stuff that probably wouldn't have been a big deal except that my wife kept two sets of books. One for who she'd been, another for who she wanted to pretend she'd been, and the amount of shame bottle up inside that woman is just plain beyond belief. She continued with two sets of books throughout our entire marriage, until the root cause of our issues (our issues because I married her so they become ours, not just hers) landed on us with a heavy thud a year and a half ago.

If you want to fix things, it might take a lot of work. How much does your husband know about your past? More important probably is whether you made an attempt to keep that past from him. Did you see your husband as a way out of that past, or was he part of it?

I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd ever be seeing a therapist or marriage counselor. But my wife has seen a number of therapists and psychologists and psychiatrists over the years for depression without ever telling any of them anything useful. She hid what she was ashamed of, and was often quite proud of being able to fool them (she'd tell me so, without ever letting me know there really was something she was hiding). But after her secrets crashed upon us, I went for individual counseling, as did she, then marriage counseling, and it took her a YEAR to end denials and trickle-truthing, a year of what I initially thought was wasted time but have come to realize how painful this has been for her. And now we've added a sex therapist to the mix. And yet, if that's a light at the end of the tunnel, it is very, very dim.

Are you willing to go all-in on this? And is your husband? Are you willing to establish what progress means, write it down and kind of force yourself to not fall back from progress (as you hinted you have in the past)? My wife and I are 18 months into this and only over the last 6 months does it seem like there's been hope. Can your husband make it through a process like that?

It's not easy. You have to work on it every single day. You can't make excuses for yourself. One of you has to be fully committed to make it happen. Ideally both of you. But there are going to be times when it won't seem like it's worth it, and if both of you are in that mode at the same time? That's why I think it's important that one of you has to take responsibility for seeing it through. And it still might not work.

All this and we really don't know what's gone on, but you listed a whole lot of stuff in your second paragraph, any one or two of which could be enough, if it had never been appropriately dealth with.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

This may become a very interesting thread. 

I’m pressed for time but I want to say something about the, “just do it” suggestions that get passed around here frequently. 

If someone were to find a time bomb would you tell them to just defuse it? Y’know, just go ahead and cut the red wire, because at you are trying to defuse the situation right?

That’s what just submitting to sex when you don’t want to is doing. 

Sometimes you cut the red wire and as the session unfolds you get into and become aroused and satisfied and you come away feeling more connected and energized.

But more often than not it all blows up in your face. 

Many times when someone has sex they don’t want and aren’t desiring, instead of getting into it once it starts, it actually become more uncomfortable and more distressing for them. 

In time it becomes an actual sex aversion and they do everything they can to avoid it. 

Would we tell a heterosexual man to just do it and that he may end up liking it if a homosexual man was wanting to have anal sex with him??

Sometimes some people need some loving and stimulation before they feel any arousal or desire at all. 

But if someone truly does not want to have sex with their partner, taking the Nike approach does more harm than good.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

The 'just do it' advice is being misrepresented.

The spirit of it is - wake up. Take responsibility. _Do something._

If she has any sort of sexual abuse in her past, or if she is a time bomb, then it's on her to work on that and sort herself out._ To try._


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Have you ever considered opening your marriage to other partners...?? It sounds like that could help alleviate alot of your painful issues around sex and having your differing sexual needs met...


We have talked about it. Neither of us want that. He would likely (his admission) develop very strong feelings for a woman who is more sexually confident and available to him. We are not equipped as a couple to invite that challenge into our lives.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

PieceOfSky said:


> I’d like to hear more from LD partners too. In my years here, I’ve heard from only a handful. The number who seemed to “love their spouse” might have been just two, IIRC.
> 
> At home, my LD/0D spouse has had very little to say on her own experience.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your well wishes. Same to you.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

bobert said:


> Since you brought it up, _if_ you were sexually abused at some point in your life these issues won't get better until the trauma is dealt with. Obviously I don't know if you were or not but you said the questions could be hints so... If you were sexually abused, and if you haven't already read it, the book "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel van der Kolk is good. Those issues also don't just go away forever and never come back, even with therapy. It gets easier over time but the issues will still come up sometimes and they have to keep being worked on.


Yes. I experienced sexual trauma in my childhood. I am grateful that you brought up this book. I have already downloaded it for continuing ed credits for my work (social work) but did not realize that it might be helpful to me. 
"It gets easier over time but the issues will still come up sometimes and they _*have to keep being worked on*_." That is a big truth for me. I get weary of it and do wish sometimes that I were single and did not have to keep working on it. An admission I am not proud of but still true.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Just to add another aspect for the sake of the "just do it" league: What if the LD person (and I use that term loosely because the situation doesn't automatically mean the person actually has a low sex drive) were mentally, emotionally, physically, and/or sexually abused by their partner? No one comes here confessing to be abusive. They only come here complaining they don't get sex. What they receive is anwhere from 50% to 90% of respondents telling them their partner doesn't care about them, doesn't love them, has no respect for them, and their partner should just do it. How is that helpful? In some or many cases, it could make home life worse for the abused. Please don't be so superficial as to recommend the LD partner should just leave if they are being abused because abusive situations are much more complex than that.

That's just one model situation out of numerous reasons a person doesn't want sex with their partner. No outsider has any idea but are quick to suggest they should just do it and quick to make the complainant think they are entitled to something that they're not entitled to at all.



minimalME said:


> The 'just do it' advice is being misrepresented.
> 
> The spirit of it is - wake up. Take responsibility. _Do something._
> 
> If she has any sort of sexual abuse in her past, or if she is a time bomb, then it's on her to work on that and sort herself out._ To try._


Casual Observer made that pointedly clear, but it's not everyone's purpose or intention, not in this thread or the thousands of others. Way more often than not, people indicate "just do it" and that's all they mean.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

minimalME said:


> I'm just curious...
> 
> Did you know this about yourself prior to marriage? Did you marry as a virgin?
> 
> ...


Yes. We knew that our sexual compatibility was off before we got married. We lived together for 3 years before we got married. We tried counseling _before_ we got married (as well as a few times after). I had one counselor tell me point blank that I probably should not marry him. I was so pissed at the time. I was looking for help not a statement like that. 27 years later I see that statement for the pragmatic perspective it was meant to be. No regrets on my end other than the pain I've caused my husband and selfishly, the guilt I feel all the time. I don't think he has regrets from marrying me either. 

My consensual sexual history prior to my husband is limited and either involved an inappropriate relationship (older man) or later, alcohol. His sexual history history was fairly limited as well. Our sexual history together, especially in the first year full of sex and sex stories. I was turned on for sure but it's complicated. For many reasons even beyond my past sexual trauma I was overwhelmed by the intensity of his desire for me and looked forward to it all dying down. I did not understand that it would not die down for him and that a sexual relationship requires loads of open direct communication, integrity and hard work. 

Yes to masturbation from a very early age and is the only way I can have an orgasm. This is another complicated subject for me and many others I'm sure.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> Hi Aggie, do you realise that you can have sex with your husband even if you dont feel like it? When I married my husband I knew that he had been rejected many many times sexually by his former wife, and I made the decision that I would never reject him sexually. Can you make that decision? Sometimes we have to overide our feelings and do what is best for the marriage and our spouse. If we stop haing sex there is a real danger that eventuallty he may go elsewhere for sex, and that would be sad as you clearly love him. As a spouse, I believe its right that we should each meet each other sexual needs(as long as there isnt abuse or you arent being forced to do things etc).


I appreciate the strong sentiment and passion of your reply. I have had sex many, many times and in many, many different ways even when I didn't feel like it. I believe, as an individual on this thread remarked, that doing so has undermined our sexual connection. As I matured and took more responsibility for our sexual relationship I continued to have sex even if I didn't feel like it in a way that I owned and after discussion with my husband but the damage done from the years of "faking it" was done to him and me. I understand that our relationship has caused psychological and possibly even physical damage to my husband. I am heartbroken about that.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

AggieL said:


> Yes to masturbation from a very early age and is the only way I can have an orgasm. This is another complicated subject for me and many others I'm sure.


I almost got excited when I read this and felt like "finally we're getting somewhere," but then I realized I still don't know because the statement, while somewhat illuminating, doesn't reveal all that much.

Both your limited sexual experiences prior to each other is a concern for me. When a woman says she never has an orgasm or says she only does by masturbation, then, to me, the question of experience is as paramount as any of the other hindrances. And it also makes me think there's a good likelihood you have taken on more guilt and responsibility for the success/failure of your sex life than need be. The problem might not rest entirely on your shoulders, but we would need more information for accurate determination. You may message me if you prefer not to be public.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

minimalME said:


> The 'just do it' advice is being misrepresented.
> 
> The spirit of it is - wake up. Take responsibility. _Do something._
> 
> If she has any sort of sexual abuse in her past, or if she is a time bomb, then it's on her to work on that and sort herself out._ To try._


Maybe. 

But you will see a lot of people here advocating that the LD partner should suck it up and provide duty/service sex and that if they love their partner that it should be a service that they provide for the marriage. 

Now to be fair, sometimes that does work and once people get into it they do become aroused and it ends up being a positive and bonding experience.

But that can be a minefield and it can quickly become a source of distress and resentment on both sides. 

You WILL see ‘just do it ‘ advocated here and be meant literally. 

There are people here that do see sex as a duty and obligation. 

Now no one wants anyone to hurt or truly do anything without consent.

But you will see people say, “...I don’t like taking out the trash or cleaning the toilet but I do it anyway...”. 

I also had a thread here years ago about the ethics on duty sex and whether it was even ethical to have sex with someone who wasn’t actually into it and was just providing a service to keep their partner in the relationship and the response was a majority of people thinking duty sex was appropriate and should be accepted. 

My point is some people do literally advocate just doing it.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

AggieL said:


> Yes. I experienced sexual trauma in my childhood. I am grateful that you brought up this book. I have already downloaded it for continuing ed credits for my work (social work) but did not realize that it might be helpful to me.
> "It gets easier over time but the issues will still come up sometimes and they _*have to keep being worked on*_." That is a big truth for me. I get weary of it and do wish sometimes that I were single and did not have to keep working on it. An admission I am not proud of but still true.


Does your husband know you experienced CSA? If not, please find a way to talk to him about it. It will help him have a better understanding of what is going on. If he does know he might feel like he does everything possible and nothing he does is enough to "fix" you. Reality is, only you can fix you. There are things he can do to help you feel more supported and comfortable, and a sex therapist can help with that if you are both open to it.

This book is hard to find nowadays but I recommend trying to find it. It's called "What About Me?" by Grant Cameron. It's one of the few books written for men in this situation.

These issues won't fix themself. It takes a lot of hard, hard work. You owe it to yourself, and your husband, to try. I would highly recommend you find a therapist who specializes in CSA. From my experience, things get worse before getting better but you have to stick with it. It may seem easier to just avoid sex or never have sex again, but it doesn't have to be that way. Things can be better.

You asked if people wondered if things would be better if they had married someone else. Is this how you feel? If so, why? What is your husband doing, or not doing, to make you feel that way?

I'll say this since it's sort of answering that question with real experience rather than just wondering. My wife had a long term affair and the experience with him was better, "the best she's had". She was far more comfortable, far more relaxed, more into it, didn't feel used or gross, orgasmed, etc. With me it was pretty much the opposite. He was doing things that I wasn't, both during sex and in their "relationship". The actions were better, not the person, and actions can be fixed. So if there is something that can be improved, that is information your husband needs.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

bobert said:


> I'll say this since it's sort of answering that question with real experience rather than just wondering. My wife had a long term affair and the experience with him was better, "the best she's had". She was far more comfortable, far more relaxed, more into it, didn't feel used or gross, orgasmed, etc. With me it was pretty much the opposite. He was doing things that I wasn't, both during sex and in their "relationship". The actions were better, not the person, and actions can be fixed. So if there is something that can be improved, that is information your husband needs.


This is what I'm trying to get at and what I mean by both your inexperience concerns me. No one would be the blame for this, and it can be addressed, if not improved.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

StarFires said:


> "Would you like to share with us what sex or the effort to have sex is like for you?
> 
> All over the place. It is extremely mood dependent and alcohol has not been the friend I thought it was. The worst of sex involves anger that comes out of nowhere (right in the middle of having sex), tears, disgust, shame. Lots of past trauma residual for sure but I was interested in hearing from other LD who did NOT experience sexual trauma in their past but still experience these feelings during sex. The best of sex for me is a feeling of connection and closeness and ease and energy. Energy is a BIG one. If I am in a good mood (not a sexy mood just a good place) and have energy I truly love giving to my husband. It does not unfortunately translate to my own sexual satisfaction and over time that has weighed heavily on my husband...not as much on me. Again, alcohol deceived me for years. A little bit always made me feel relaxed and I love that feeling but it blunts vulnerability and for me any true physical arousal.
> 
> ...


All of the prompts I used are true for me. I did not mean to be coy by using the word clues. As you correctly pointed out, I was trying to open a discussion on LD partner's thoughts and feelings while not necessarily focusing on my own story. Still, I know that I need to participate in order to expect others to share honestly as well. It's a vulnerable place to be. 

"It doesn't appear you posted here looking for solutions or opinions but rather to commiserate with like-minded individuals and to perhaps glean from them, so I will certainly understand if you prefer not to answer my questions."

You are right. I am not looking for direct solutions or opinions on my specific story but I do understand the interest and am willing to provide information in the hopes of a positive outcome for me and others. I winced at the word "commiserate". I really want more than commiseration. I am going to elaborate on this in a post reply to my original post. It does seem like I might be out of luck in trying to hear from lots of other LD partners. Thank you for that observation.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> But you will see people say, “...I don’t like taking out the trash or cleaning the toilet but I do it anyway...”.


Yeah I don’t get this thought process either. 

OK... does the toilet care whether it’s cleaned or the trash can emptied? Or what your true emotions behind cleaning and emptying are? I think your toilet and trash cans would be offended and hurt that you don’t enjoying taking care of them. Seriously, at one time time did you ever talk to your girlfriends about how you couldn’t wait to go home and clean the toilet? Guarantee you were talking about sleeping with him with your friends.

Once sex becomes an obligation or chore akin to taking out the trash, you’re just legally-obligated friends exchanging bad sex for a higher standard of living.

There’s “I’m not into sex but I take pride in knowing partner does want to look elsewhere.” And “I’m not into sex and I’m only doing this so I don’t become a broke, single parent/empty nester.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> At the very simplest of levels, if you can do something for someone that feels very very special to that person, and you care very much about that person, why wouldn't you want to? Why wouldn't a basic empathetic response allow you to feel very good about offering "yourself" to your partner? What makes "sex" so different from so many other things that we might gladly do for someone?
> 
> I think it's worth exploring exactly what it is that makes sex so different, and in doing so, perhaps find the answer. But in some cases I believe it's a simple inability to feel empathy. Something's blocked so we become more self-focused and take less joy in what makes someone else happy. And whatever might have caused this could be very deep-rooted and sex itself becomes a trigger. Especially as OP says "Our sexual problems have been with us from the beginning."
> 
> Not that I know anything at all about exactly this.



"What makes "sex" so different from so many other things that we might gladly do for someone?"

This is an excellent observation. I have thought about this and have been asked this by my husband many times. My knee jerk is to try and clearly define why sex IS different than any other type of giving. My past sexual trauma is an obvious explanation but I do think there is more going on with us. I definitely have some selfish tendencies with my husband getting the brunt of it. But I am actually a very empathetic person almost to my detriment. At least I think it's empathy. I feel for every member of my immediate and extended family and purposely try to keep a lot of my friendships at arms length because I struggle under the weight of empathetic feelings. I am not on social media for this reason as well. Still, my husband seems to fall into another category for me...almost as if we are too close for me to be empathetic without indicting myself. You have posed a good question.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

AggieL said:


> It does seem like I might be out of luck in trying to hear from lots of other LD partners. Thank you for that observation.


I think this is because very few LD partners are frustrated and seeking solutions - most of them are happy with how things are...it's the HD partners who have the frustrated energy that makes posting on a forum for answers an outlet that offers hope for them. You are one of only VERY FEW LD partners who I have ever seen post (openly) on here, admitting that your way of being a sexual person is something that you wish you could change out of love for your partner.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

AggieL said:


> This is an excellent observation. I have thought about this and have been asked this by my husband many times. My knee jerk is to try and clearly define why sex IS different than any other type of giving. My past sexual trauma is an obvious explanation but I do think there is more going on with us. I definitely have some selfish tendencies with my husband getting the brunt of it. But I am actually a very empathetic person almost to my detriment. At least I think it's empathy. I feel for every member of my immediate and extended family and purposely try to keep a lot of my friendships at arms length because I struggle under the weight of empathetic feelings. I am not on social media for this reason as well. Still, my husband seems to fall into another category for me...almost as if we are too close for me to be empathetic without indicting myself. You have posed a good question.


I think you might be on to something here...have you ever explored this aspect of your feelings with a counselor, or with yourself through reflection, journaling, etc...??


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bobert said:


> Does your husband know you experienced CSA? If not, please find a way to talk to him about it. It will help him have a better understanding of what is going on. If he does know he might feel like he does everything possible and nothing he does is enough to "fix" you. Reality is, only you can fix you. There are things he can do to help you feel more supported and comfortable, and a sex therapist can help with that if you are both open to it.
> 
> This book is hard to find nowadays but I recommend trying to find it. It's called "What About Me?" by Grant Cameron. It's one of the few books written for men in this situation.
> 
> ...


This is why proper treatment with a professional specializing is CSA issues.

Your experience above is not at all unified in CSA survivors.

I don’t want to risk sounding like I’m blaming the victim here but it is quite common for CSA victims to have very bad sexual dysfunctions with a kind, loving, supportive committed partner but have uninhibited, Wild, monkey sex with some biker or play’a from the bar.

Left untreated they can fall in to repeated patterns of exploitation and abuse.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I don’t want to risk sounding like I’m blaming the victim here but it is quite common for CSA victims to have very bad sexual dysfunctions with a kind, loving, supportive committed partner but have uninhibited, Wild, monkey sex with some biker or play’a from the bar.


Yes, as a way of acting out while maintaining appearances. They need both lives until they deal with the deeper issues.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

StarFires said:


> I don't know your story, but it sure sounds like you are hurt and struggling to understand. I wish it could be reduced down to your simple questions and rationale, but it can't be. And the just do it mentality doesn't work either. Have you asked your questions of the person that mattered? If you did, did they not answer you? What was their response? I realize the deprived person doesn't understand, nor do those who have not been through it, but people have their reasons even if they don't divulge them, and there could be any number of reasons. People who are not familiar don't have the imagination to fathom what those reasons could be. But this lady hinted at a great many reasons, so the just do it mentality can basically be construed as an insensitive affront to her.



We do talk a lot about our struggles. As the years have gone by we have become very honest with each other mostly to his pain. He is grateful though to hear truths rather than rely on what he thinks is true. He struggles to understand what in the world I get out of sex with him. He understands my issues with trauma, arousal, aversions at this point so well that he feels badly every time we get it on even if I ini-ate. It's hard for him to understand that my wanting to give to him and the rewarding feeling of closeness and connection that comes after is pretty much what it's all about for me. Even harder because after we have some form of intimacy he is ramped up with the wheels of creative desire spinning within him while I am grateful for our connection but immediately sort of shut down sexually. This is the pattern that is destroying us. Add to this, there IS a part of me that would like to be better connected to my sexual self. This part of me takes a lot of commitment and work but life moves fast and little stressors can so easily snuf out any little effort I make. This last bit about my desire to be a more sexual person is not something he believes. He believes I want to want to be a more sexual person. That is true too but so is the other.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> OK, you're hitting pretty close to home for me. The rejection issue for the non-LD partner is HUGE. It feels like you recognize this. The damage builds up over the years and hurts the non-LD partner in so many ways. Look up the Ted Talk "The Sex Starved Marriage" and give it a watch. Then ask your husband to watch it with you. I think it might give you a meeting place, something the two of you can both understand and from there, move forward.
> 
> I don't think you have much time. You say you have "JUST" entered into a no sex phase of marriage, but in the same paragraph said "Our sexual problems have been with us since the beginning." You say he's a "Wonderful, loving, good husband" but you don't say you can't imagine living without him. There's a sense that you've written the marriage off already, but I can't tell if that might be defensive, a way to make it seem not so bad that he might want out himself.
> 
> ...


"Are you willing to go all-in on this? And is your husband? Are you willing to establish what progress means, write it down and kind of force yourself to not fall back from progress (as you hinted you have in the past)?"

You are really making me think. Recently I l have been reading books on race relations in order to be an advocate for anti-racism instead of just passing through this world doing what I think is right but not really getting involved. I heard an interview with an author stating that committing to this type of thinking is hard work not unlike committing to getting sober. It'll wear you down with weariness and you'll want to quit and just get back to living your life. That resonated with me and so do your strong statements above. 

I am so so so impressed with the work you and your wife are doing right now. Thank you for detailing it. I've never heard the phrase "trickle-truth telling". That hits home as well. 

"You say he's a "Wonderful, loving, good husband" but you don't say you can't imagine living without him. There's a sense that you've written the marriage off already, but I can't tell if that might be defensive, a way to make it seem not so bad that he might want out himself."

I _can_ imagine living without him. Basically, I would work and enjoy my kids and my family and my hobbies but there would be a HUGE hole in my heart and in my life and possibly even some physical manifestations for me. I would survive and find ways to thrive and I welcome the idea of living each day without guilt. But I am not even close to wanting that for myself. He has never expressed interest in separation or divorce and has a harder time even talking about it. The only way it would benefit anyone in our lives is if he found another partner that suited him better sexually.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

AggieL said:


> We do talk a lot about our struggles. As the years have gone by we have become very honest with each other mostly to his pain. He is grateful though to hear truths rather than rely on what he thinks is true. He struggles to understand what in the world I get out of sex with him. He understands my issues with trauma, arousal, aversions at this point so well that he feels badly every time we get it on even if I ini-ate. It's hard for him to understand that my wanting to give to him and the rewarding feeling of closeness and connection that comes after is pretty much what it's all about for me. Even harder because after we have some form of intimacy he is ramped up with the wheels of creative desire spinning within him while I am grateful for our connection but immediately sort of shut down sexually. This is the pattern that is destroying us. Add to this, there IS a part of me that would like to be better connected to my sexual self. This part of me takes a lot of commitment and work but life moves fast and little stressors can so easily snuf out any little effort I make. This last bit about my desire to be a more sexual person is not something he believes. He believes I want to want to be a more sexual person. That is true too but so is the other.


It sounds like part of the problem may be an expectation that sex for your should mean the same as sex for him, and that's not realistic. It's kind of similar to thinking sex isn't working if the couple don't orgasm at the same time. Sex can be enjoyed for its closeness for one party and for the physical release by the other and both can be happy, both can understand that it's working for their partner and that they are an integral part of it working for them.

If my wife enjoyed sex only because it gave me pleasure, it wouldn't be ultimate sex, but it certainly wouldn't be bad. _If_ she was enjoying it. For whatever reason. We have to respect our partner's desire to please sometimes. If you're putting yourself out there for him because you love him, and that makes you feel good, and he's not approaching sex from a selfish standpoint but sees the love and care being offered up, that's probably better intimacy than many experience.

For your own trauma, have you fully fleshed it out in therapy? Are you able to revisit things you did or didn't do back then, in response, and teach your younger self how to have better handled things?

Looks up Terrence Real, a therapist who gets into revisiting your younger self and teaching that younger self a better way to deal with the trauma. It's been of great help to my wife and I. At my wife's therapist's advice, my wife and I recreated a moment about 5 months after we met, when she was hiding her real life from me, and had the conversation we should have had, the conversation that she didn't want to have because she thought it would scare me off, which lead to lies and doubling-down that destroyed her (us) sexually because sex itself became a trigger for her. 

I see in your post a lot of reason for hope.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

AggieL said:


> Wonderful, loving, good, handsome husband of 25 years and I have JUST entered into a no sex phase of marriage and I am so sad. I honestly could go the rest of my life without sex and only be mildly affected though at times I would definitely feel old and frustrated and very sad. He is a sexual and tactile person who is hurt and disappointed and frustrated and simply cannot take my on and off interest. He is very patient and would and has waited for me to figure it out but the pain is too great for him. He would rather shut it all down than have to deal with repeated rejection and/or a kind but somewhat unenthusiastic partner. For years and years I have had sex or some form of sexual intimacy with him without feeling aroused or with the arousal disappearing within moments of sex. I have also said “no” to him many, many times either verbally or by non verbal signals. Our sexual problems have been with us since the beginning. We have been through the ringer over the past ¼ decade sexually. Me with deep guilt and strong anxiety over the pain I am causing him and him with hurt and anger and helplessness. At my darkest times I fantasize about my death (NOT suicidal just a dark fantasy) freeing him to find a compatible sexual partner. There are LOTS of factors involved. We talk and talk about our issues We have written to each other. We have been to therapy multiple times. I always think it’s getting a little better every time we have some form of sexual intimacy but he has been feeling worse and worse; just so sad that I am not aroused or aroused enough to enjoy him. I am sad too. I will share more of my exact issues (my prompt questions below offer some clues) but this is already long and I'd like to hear from others.
> 
> Here is my question to other LD partners who love their spouses but cannot ever seem to muster enough sexual energy to enjoy sexual intimacy, even when directly participating: are you sexually averse in some way? Have you had to get over a lot of inhibitions only to have them come roaring back? Do you think you just chose the wrong partner sexually and could actually be very sexual with a different partner? Were you abused sexually in some way in your life? Are alcohol or drugs a factor in your sexual energy or do you feel alcohol or drugs affect your partner (the HD partner) in some way? Other thoughts on your LD life in an otherwise loving marriage? I am looking to hear the LD partner’s thoughts and feelings. I have read much about HD partners’ anger and sadness over the fact that their LD partners won’t talk to them about it, won’t get help, won’t change, etc… I’d like to hear more from the LD partners. I am looking for responses from people who care about their spouses as opposed to griping



I want to get to all of your thoughtful replies to my post. I must leave the computer for awhile but I do want to restate that I would love to hear from other LD partners. Please, if you are out there, let us in on your pain. I was asked if I would like to commiserate with other LD people. I'd really like a lot more than that. I have a feeling there are many LD partners who do NOT have sexual trauma in their lives but maybe I am wrong. Maybe 95% of LD folks have some sort of sexual trauma. I have a feeling that is not true and that interests me because there are so many facets to my sexual issues with my husbands that I don't _think _have anything to do with trauma. I'd like to know why, according to so many HD people I know and the posters on this forum, LD partners won't even talk to their spouse about sexual issues. I suppose if someone is unwilling to talk to their spouse, they probably won't post on a forum. Still, if you are out there, I'd be very grateful to hear your story or even just one part of it.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> This is why proper treatment with a professional specializing is CSA issues.
> 
> Your experience above is not at all unified in CSA survivors.
> 
> ...


Where did I say that one part of my experience is the same for all CSA survivors? 

You are correct that it is common for the CSA survivor to struggle with their spouse but have wild, monkey sex with someone else they have no attachment to. And yes, sometimes CSA survivors keep repeating the pattern of being abused. I have seen both with my wife. 

One AP was the one mentioned above and (sorry to burst your bubble but) there was no wild monkey sex. It was 4 years of slow, emotional "extension of love" missionary sex. She felt emotionally safe with him. She didn't feel that with me, or anyone else. It wasn't because he was an AP, it was because of what he was doing (and his style of manipulation) and what I wasn't doing. The other AP fit the more typical pattern of doing all sorts of things she wouldn't do with me (you name it, she probably did it) and continuing to be abused and used by him. 

Don't assume I'm not familiar with all this crap.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

bobert said:


> Where did I say that one part of my experience is the same for all CSA survivors?
> 
> You are correct that it is common for the CSA survivor to struggle with their spouse but have wild, monkey sex with someone else they have no attachment to. And yes, sometimes CSA survivors keep repeating the pattern of being abused. I have seen both with my wife.
> 
> ...


The AP may have an advantage with a spouse such as yours, because the AP may have made it their specialty to discover and exploit those with such issues. They've learned how to work the "damaged" person to their advantage. Manipulation is exactly the right word. You have experience only with your wife and your definition of success requires a long-term solution. The AP doesn't carry that burden.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bobert said:


> Where did I say that one part of my experience is the same for all CSA survivors?
> 
> You are correct that it is common for the CSA survivor to struggle with their spouse but have wild, monkey sex with someone else they have no attachment to. And yes, sometimes CSA survivors keep repeating the pattern of being abused. I have seen both with my wife.
> 
> ...


I should have clarified my intent of quoting your post better.

I was simply citing it as an example. I was in no way directing it back towards you or disagreeing with anything you said. 

My apologies if any offense or misunderstanding.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I should have clarified my intent of quoting your post better.
> 
> I was simply citing it as an example. I was in no way directing it back towards you or disagreeing with anything you said.
> 
> My apologies if any offense or misunderstanding.


I'm currently in a really bad mood, overwhelmed, and about one second away from a mental breakdown so I'm probably going to read/take anything the wrong way. I shouldn't be saying anything at all right now so ignore that.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

AggieL said:


> I want to get to all of your thoughtful replies to my post. I must leave the computer for awhile but I do want to restate that I would love to hear from other LD partners. Please, if you are out there, let us in on your pain. I was asked if I would like to commiserate with other LD people. I'd really like a lot more than that. I have a feeling there are many LD partners who do NOT have sexual trauma in their lives but maybe I am wrong. Maybe 95% of LD folks have some sort of sexual trauma. I have a feeling that is not true and that interests me because there are so many facets to my sexual issues with my husbands that I don't _think _have anything to do with trauma. I'd like to know why, according to so many HD people I know and the posters on this forum, LD partners won't even talk to their spouse about sexual issues. I suppose if someone is unwilling to talk to their spouse, they probably won't post on a forum. Still, if you are out there, I'd be very grateful to hear your story or even just one part of it.


Why doesn't the LD partner participate in conversations? Perhaps because the LD partner may attempt to live in his or her own world in which the LD either isn't a problem or is able to off-load the problem as being the HD's fault for being HD.

My wife believed she was in a very happy marriage. She told everyone this. She believed this. While at the same time rejecting me completely, telling me if sex was important I should have an affair or see a hooker, and finally telling me she's resented sex for 40 years. All the while believing she had a happy marriage.

Some people carry two sets of books. I believe this is far more common than realized. They can live in their own fantasy world, which relieves them from having to deal with empathy for their partner. Because there's nothing to be empathetic about. You can't publicly acknowledge your HD partner's issue (and by the way, it annoys me that, when one partner is LD, the other seem, by definition, to be HD, which might place blame on the so-called HD person for being "H" if that makes sense) because that would expose issues in your marriage. Being happy in a relationship where your partner has expressed serious issues would require that you reassess the relationship. 

So you deny & accuse anything that threatens your need to see your marriage as good and happy. You certainly wouldn't participate in forums where people would probe deeply into things you don't want to question!


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

bobert said:


> I'm currently in a really bad mood, overwhelmed, and about one second away from a mental breakdown so I'm probably going to read/take anything the wrong way. I shouldn't be saying anything at all right now so ignore that.


I cannot imagine walking in your shoes after your description of your wife's 4 years with her AP. Find some friends to talk with. Let your IC know (if you have one). Reading about everyone else's f'd up lives here might not work well because you set a pretty high bar for finding someone worse off. I had a really bad night last night, not able to sleep because my mind kept going over things that I thought I'd moved past. I'm hoping to do exactly that... to move past those things... by pushing myself pretty hard on a long bike ride. Sometimes it works. Sometimes I feel like stopping in the middle of a climb I normally love, sitting on the ground and crying. Haven't done that yet. Hang in there.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

AggieL said:


> It's hard for him to understand that my wanting to give to him and the rewarding feeling of closeness and connection that comes after is pretty much what it's all about for me. Even harder because after we have some form of intimacy he is ramped up with the wheels of creative desire spinning within him while I am grateful for our connection but immediately sort of shut down sexually.


We might be getting somewhere with this. I take that to mean you're saying you get nothing out of the sexual act itself, right? Lots of people who take the blame for this really are not to blame at all. They just don't know what they are supposed to get out of it. And since nothing is forthcoming, they think that's all there is. For example (and I'm just cutting to the chase here), I wonder if you and he engage in oral sex. Specifically, does he go down on you? You say the only way you can orgasm is by masturbation, so is that a sexual aversion due to trauma that you don't enjoy oral sex and don't orgasm, or is it that he doesn't do it in such a way that is enjoyable for you and doesn't bring you to orgasm? How do you know the difference in order to take the blame on yourself?

This is the reason both your inexperience concerns me. He being inexperienced could mean, and often does mean, that he doesn't know how to make love to a woman very well. Your inexperience could mean you don't have much to compare him to and since he does various acts (intercourse, oral sex, etc. - whatever he does), you take it for what it is without knowing there could/should be more to it. So, it's possible you blame yourself for not feeling anything from what he's doing.

Again, I understand if you don't want to talk about any of this. I keep getting the feeling that you really don't want to because you give us mostly generalities. Specifics might not be your thing, and none of this part of the discussion is what you came here for, so I get it. It's just that I know oral sex (and intercourse too) can be so entirely consuming when executed properly that a woman wouldn't necessarily be able to interrupt the ecstasy with other thoughts unless the act itself causes traumatic and painful memories. But you speak of the times that you want to have sex in order to please him and to feel connected even though you get nothing out of it. That tells me your past doesn't always interrupt and doesn't always cause you pain. So much of what you told us makes me think, or at least wonder if, the problem is more a matter of skill and technique that cause your low drive and aversion and not necessarily so much your past that you think is the reason, at least not all of it and not all of the time.

A woman who can cum by masturbating should also be able to cum by way of oral sex if it is done correctly for her. In my personal experience, 3 out of maybe 15 men know how to perform oral sex properly. All the others kindly/gladly went down and did whatever while down there, but accomplished little more than my annoyance and my subsequent aversion to allowing the act to take place. I don't know if your husband performs orally for you, but everything I'm saying can also be applied to intercourse too. I don't know how you know the difference so as to apply your traumatic childhood experience(s) as being the cause of the sexual problems in your marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

@AggieL,

From what you write, it sounds like the two of you have been to marriage counseling. Have you been to individual counseling? You might very well benefit from seeing an individual counselor who is also a sex therapist.

Have you spoken to your doctor about your low sex drive? It could be a hormonal issue as well.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> @AggieL,
> 
> From what you write, it sounds like the two of you have been to marriage counseling. Have you been to individual counseling? You might very well benefit from seeing an individual counselor who is also a sex therapist.
> 
> Have you spoken to your doctor about your low sex drive? It could be a hormonal issue as well.


Having gone through or in the process of all three, I am wondering if there's a difference seeing a sex therapist in person rather than on-line? Because in the on-line environment, frankly, the sex counselor doesn't seem too much different from the others, and I wonder if there needs to be a bit more in-your-face approach. It's one thing to discuss what you're uncomfortable with on a screen, an entirely different thing, perhaps, to have someone show you something, hand you something, that can't be done on-line. Not show you something personally, which is strictly and correctly off-limits. But props and books and such. Plus a lot of sensing what's a problem comes visually and you can see the therapist earnestly looking for your or your partner's reaction but you're going to get a lot less body language coming across on a small screen with a laptop camera than in person.

But I do strongly agree that all three forms of counseling are important. Just wondering about which has more limitations on video, if that's actually the case.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

AggieL said:


> "What makes "sex" so different from so many other things that we might gladly do for someone?"
> 
> This is an excellent observation. I have thought about this and have been asked this by my husband many times. My knee jerk is to try and clearly define why sex IS different than any other type of giving. My past sexual trauma is an obvious explanation but I do think there is more going on with us. I definitely have some selfish tendencies with my husband getting the brunt of it. But I am actually a very empathetic person almost to my detriment. At least I think it's empathy. I feel for every member of my immediate and extended family and purposely try to keep a lot of my friendships at arms length because I struggle under the weight of empathetic feelings. I am not on social media for this reason as well. Still, my husband seems to fall into another category for me...almost as if we are too close for me to be empathetic without indicting myself. You have posed a good question.


Sex is different because it's an "appetite". 

You don't crave doing "so different from so many other things that we might gladly do for someone?"

Think of when a person is hungry and you put a meal in front of them... they will eat it with gusto.. because they are hunger, they have an appetite for it.

Put that some meal in front of someone who has no appetite at the time ad they will most likely push it away.

The question is why don't you have the appetite for sex? 

You need to figure out if you are trying to avoid sex due to some issue such as previous abuse or if you have next to no sexual drive due to a hormonal issue. Some avoid sex because of life experiences such as sexual abuse. You don't seem to know the source of your lack of sexual appetite.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

AggieL said:


> I'd like to know why, according to so many HD people I know and the posters on this forum, LD partners won't even talk to their spouse about sexual issues. I suppose if someone is unwilling to talk to their spouse, they probably won't post on a forum. Still, if you are out there, I'd be very grateful to hear your story or even just one part of it.


Oftentimes, people, mostly women, are afraid to speak the truth for fear of hurting their partner's feelings. Can you imagine telling someone they are no good in bed or you don't like having sex with them? Most women cannot form their lips to speak words like that. A lot of women have had the experience of their partner asking "Was it good for you? That's a clueless question from a clueless and inconsiderate lover, but the women invariably answer "Yes." Why? Because it's easier and doesn't hurt anybody's feelings. So, there ends up being the multitude of men who say "I thought she didn't like sex but found out she just didn't like sex with me" after his lover found a new lover. It's still rather clueless because he still doesn't know why she didn't like sex with him. Or the women who say "I thought I didn't like sex but found out I just didn't like sex with him" after they discovered with another lover how good and satisfying sex could be.

It may be just as often that they don't know what the truth is or how to talk to about it. A lot of women don't know what the problem is. They only know they don't like it or that something is missing since many women don't know what feels good to them until they experience something that feels good. Then they know but until then, there was nothing to talk about and no solutions to suggest since they don't know what the solutions are. How can a woman who never experienced an orgasm be able to tell her partner how to make her orgasm? How can a woman who never experienced good and satisfying sex tell her partner how to make sex good and satisfying?

There are also the women who are shy and reticent to discuss sex.

People like to question and indict human nature as being unjustified, which is what happens a lot on boards like this. But human nature is what it is, and people act by their own inclinations. I mentioned my personal experience with 15 men though I don't doubt there were more. I just never counted. But I never once told a guy I disliked having sex with him. Never said he was bad in bed. Never broached the subject that he didn't know what he was doing or anything about him that was displeasing. There was one guy who had a big problem with premature ejaculation (a minute man), and I asked him to work on it. Even that was hard for me to say. He never did work on it or get better, and I never brought it up again.

No person can experience another person's feelings first hand. Even when told, they still don't quite grasp how another person feels because we can't occupy another person's body or mind. A lot of women simply don't know what sex means to a man and have no idea what it's like for him, They only know what it's like for themselves and if it is displeasing and unsatisfying, they don't want to be bothered with it. Thus, they get stuck with the label "LD" whether it's true and actually applies or not.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

On another note, @AggieL if you want to hear from other LD partners, Reddit has an actual LD sub-forum that has a number of very wise and supportive members. 

I will warn however it is not always a warm and fuzzy place and their primary narrative is not really about trying to improve their sex life with their higher libido partner. I'm not LD but when I have read through some of their threads and posts, a lot of it seems to be a lot of *****ing about how their partners want to have sex and how they are sick of being made to seem 'less than' for not having any interest in sex and how unfair it is that men don't seem to want to support them and have a home and family with them forever and a day unless sex is a part of the relationship. 

I am paraphrasing through my own lens and perspective of course, but much of my interpretation of that forum is support in how to endure a world in which other people want to have sex and how to try to keep your husband paying the bills and how to keep him out of other women's beds without having to have sex with him for years at time. 

I don't want to sound overly negative because they are well meaning folks there and they are very supportive of other LD people there. But from my perspective as an HD person, their support strikes me as like an eating disorder support group that shares advice on how to diet and cut calories and puke up your last meal without your family or doctor finding out about it and giving each other support and cheering section to stay out of the kitchen when they are dying for something to eat and how to keep starving yourself and keep puking when the rest of the world is into fine dining and eating healthy.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

AggieL said:


> I want to get to all of your thoughtful replies to my post. I must leave the computer for awhile but I do want to restate that I would love to hear from other LD partners. Please, if you are out there, let us in on your pain. I was asked if I would like to commiserate with other LD people. I'd really like a lot more than that. I have a feeling there are many LD partners who do NOT have sexual trauma in their lives but maybe I am wrong. Maybe 95% of LD folks have some sort of sexual trauma. I have a feeling that is not true and that interests me because there are so many facets to my sexual issues with my husbands that I don't _think _have anything to do with trauma. I'd like to know why, according to so many HD people I know and the posters on this forum, LD partners won't even talk to their spouse about sexual issues. I suppose if someone is unwilling to talk to their spouse, they probably won't post on a forum. Still, if you are out there, I'd be very grateful to hear your story or even just one part of it.


I'm not LD so I do not want it to come off sounding like I am trying to speak for them or anything but other than the LD sub on Reddit, that I mentioned above, I don't think there are large groups of LD people on relationship forums seeking better understanding of their sexual dynamics. 

I think you will find betrayed spouses (BS) on adultery forums that are hurt and disgusted by their partner's infidelity but then you find out they haven't had sex with them themselves for years. 

And I think you will come across some people that feel like their partner is never happy and never satisfied and are often pressuring them into doing something they don't want to do. 

But generally speaking, LD people are often not troubled by their own LD because you really don't miss something and are not troubled by not doing what you don't want to do in the first place. 

I am not troubled by the fact I have not had any coffee today. I know lots of people that are climbing the walls by 9 in the morning if they haven't had their morning coffee. After a point, that is all they talk about and all they seem to care about. 

I on the other hand could not care less and it doesn't bother me a bit because I don't like coffee. In fact, I have never had a full cup of coffee in my life. No I don't care to try your special brand of latte' because I don't like coffee. No, your latte' is not better than someone else's expresso and no even if I try it, I will not want it every day. 

And no, I am not going to seek counseling or read books or sign on to coffee forums or join any self-help groups to learn to like coffee better. 

I'll go to a coffee shop with you if you want me and I'll likely enjoy your company as long as I can have a chocolate chip muffin and milk and not have you bugging me about trying some brand of coffee. 

I don't consider myself broken and do not believe I need fixing because I don't like coffee. To me it's the rest of the world that is all messed up because why would someone even want to drink that nasty stuff. 

If someone needs to have a partner that likes coffee as much as they do and enjoying coffee together will be an important component to having a relationship with them, then I am not going to be a compatible partner for them. 

It is much the same way with true LD people. They do not need fixing and are not necessarily broken because they don't want to have sex. 

There for, you don't really see them much on sex/relationship forums unless their partner has an issue with it and is pressuring them to find a way to become more sexually responsive and they are at risk of losing a relationship that they would otherwise like to keep if it weren't for the sexual issue.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

AggieL said:


> I am looking to hear the LD partner’s thoughts and feelings.


Welcome to TAM! Over my years of reading here it seems rather rare that someone with a low libido participates in discussions and shares their side of the story. You can probably get a great deal of indirect feedback from the high libido folks asking questions to their spouses. 

One piece of feedback that I will offer you is that it took me a long time to appreciate the idea of my wife having sex with me if and when she could not get aroused as something that she did to make me feel loved. Once I wrapped my mind around that and understood that sometimes it is just not going to happen for her, I was actually able to appreciate it and feel loved as a result. This freed my wife from the anxiety of worrying that she may not get aroused, which in turn helped improve her chances of getting aroused. She knows that I am eager to please her, but these days I mostly back off of that and focus primarily on sharing my own pleasure with her. In the moments she does get in the mood, I focus on her and do my best to help her enjoy the moment (mostly involves allowing her to be in control and me avoiding making changes to anything happening). 

There is a lot to be said for making someone happy. Your husband wants to do this for you. But you have to explain that it works the other way around. You likely enjoy making him happy and you probably have a strong desire to do that. Once you get him to see that and try to appreciate that as opposed to him getting frustrated that you struggle to get aroused, it may help him better learn to love and accept you just the way you are. Once that happens it may also improve you chances of enjoying and better responding to intimacy. 

You mentioned masturbation earlier and said that was a challenging topic. I would strongly encourage you to share everything on that topic about yourself with your husband. If possible try to demonstrate what you are capable of with him observing. Not an easy thing to do, but that is likely the key to making improvements. At least being about to talk about the topic comfortably with your spouse. 

You can also take interest in his self gratification and try to participate indirectly. This seems incredibly awkward, but an example might include making sure that neither of you feel shame regarding that topic and are open to discussing things if the other has questions. Try to find ways that self gratification can become something that helps bring the two of you closer as opposed to drawing you apart. At the end of the day it is all about allowing your spouse to know you and completely see you. Once that happens it may help you each learn to better know how to make the other feel loved and accepted. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

badsanta said:


> One piece of feedback that I will offer you is that it took me a long time to appreciate the idea of my wife having sex with me if and when she could not get aroused as something that she did to make me feel loved. Once I wrapped my mind around that and understood that sometimes it is just not going to happen for her, I was actually able to appreciate it and feel loved as a result. This freed my wife from the anxiety of worrying that she may not get aroused, which in turn helped improve her chances of getting aroused. She knows that I am eager to please her, but these days I mostly back off of that and focus primarily on sharing my own pleasure with her. In the moments she does get in the mood, I focus on her and do my best to help her enjoy the moment (mostly involves allowing her to be in control and me avoiding making changes to anything happening).


This, this, THIS, a thousand times this! The pleasure each party derives from sex doesn't in any way have to mirror the other. In fact that would be terribly arbitrary and confining.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

AggieL said:


> We do talk a lot about our struggles. As the years have gone by we have become very honest with each other mostly to his pain. He is grateful though to hear truths rather than rely on what he thinks is true. He struggles to understand what in the world I get out of sex with him. He understands my issues with trauma, arousal, aversions at this point so well that he feels badly every time we get it on even if I ini-ate. *It's hard for him to understand that my wanting to give to him and the rewarding feeling of closeness and connection that comes after is pretty much what it's all about for me. * Even harder because after we have some form of intimacy he is ramped up with the wheels of creative desire spinning within him while I am grateful for our connection but immediately sort of shut down sexually. This is the pattern that is destroying us. Add to this, there IS a part of me that would like to be better connected to my sexual self. This part of me takes a lot of commitment and work but life moves fast and little stressors can so easily snuf out any little effort I make. This last bit about my desire to be a more sexual person is not something he believes. He believes I want to want to be a more sexual person. That is true too but so is the other.


Seems to me his best opportunity here is to recognize the physical intimacy you give him is lovingly given and an honest expression of his value to you.

Such a gift from my wife, given with some non-zero frequency lovingly, not begrudgingly, would have meant the world to me. Maybe there is something you two can discover and address that is presently preventing him from receiving it that way.



AggieL said:


> "What makes "sex" so different from so many other things that we might gladly do for someone?"
> 
> This is an excellent observation. I have thought about this and have been asked this by my husband many times. My knee jerk is to try and clearly define why sex IS different than any other type of giving. My past sexual trauma is an obvious explanation but I do think there is more going on with us. I definitely have some selfish tendencies with my husband getting the brunt of it. But I am actually a very empathetic person almost to my detriment. At least I think it's empathy. I feel for every member of my immediate and extended family and purposely try to keep a lot of my friendships at arms length because I struggle under the weight of empathetic feelings. I am not on social media for this reason as well. Still, my husband seems to fall into another category for me...almost as if we are too close for me to be empathetic without indicting myself. You have posed a good question.


I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying to have empathy for what your husband’s experience has been is difficult because it puts you in touch with your feelings of guilt about it?

If so, can you imagine that maybe he doesn’t “blame” you in the same way you might tend to blame yourself? Can you consider maybe he cares most not about how or why there is this divide between you, but rather wants you both to be able to cross it and reach each other?

Making some assumptions here, but it sounds like you two care about each other still. Maybe such guilt isn’t helpful, necessary, or wanted here. Maybe, if such feelings of guilt exist, they play the role of “that which keeps you stuck”?

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

minimalME said:


> The 'just do it' advice is being misrepresented.
> 
> The spirit of it is - wake up. Take responsibility. _Do something._
> 
> If she has any sort of sexual abuse in her past, or if she is a time bomb, then it's on her to work on that and sort herself out._ To try._


Absolutly, and there are many things in life that we dont always want to do but we do them because its the right thing to do. If there is something that you can do to make your spouse happy and content, and to improve the marriage why not do it? Its selfless and caring. There are many things we do that we dont feel like doing, but sometimes we need to make that decision to do ti anyway, as well as dealing with things that may be hindering us enjoying it. Cant we enjoy it because our spouse is? Such a lot of my desire to have sex is for my husbands pleasure, that he is enjoying it. 

People who say it doeant work are wrong. it can and it does.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> This, this, THIS, a thousand times this! The pleasure each party derives from sex doesn't in any way have to mirror the other. In fact that would be terribly arbitrary and confining.


ABsolutely, how wonderful for a spouse to know that their husband or wife loves them so much and values their marriage so much that they are really making that effort for them and their marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Welcome to TAM! Over my years of reading here it seems rather rare that someone with a low libido participates in discussions and shares their side of the story. You can probably get a great deal of indirect feedback from the high libido folks asking questions to their spouses.
> 
> One piece of feedback that I will offer you is that it took me a long time to appreciate the idea of my wife having sex with me if and when she could not get aroused as something that she did to make me feel loved. Once I wrapped my mind around that and understood that sometimes it is just not going to happen for her, I was actually able to appreciate it and feel loved as a result. This freed my wife from the anxiety of worrying that she may not get aroused, which in turn helped improve her chances of getting aroused. She knows that I am eager to please her, but these days I mostly back off of that and focus primarily on sharing my own pleasure with her. In the moments she does get in the mood, I focus on her and do my best to help her enjoy the moment (mostly involves allowing her to be in control and me avoiding making changes to anything happening).
> 
> ...


I love your second paragraph, so true.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Absolutly, and there are many things in life that we dont always want to do but we do them because its the right thing to do. If there is something that you can do to make your spouse happy and content, and to improve the marriage why not do it? Its selfless and caring. There are many things we do that we dont feel like doing, but sometimes we need to make that decision to do ti anyway, as well as dealing with things that may be hindering us enjoying it. Cant we enjoy it because our spouse is? Such a lot of my desire to have sex is for my husbands pleasure, that he is enjoying it.
> 
> People who say it doeant work are wrong. it can and it does.


I would agree with that if it were actually achieving a mutually positive outcome and both parties were coming away feeling good about it and it being a bonding and connecting experience. 

But that is not always the case and I'm not getting the impression that that is what is happening with the OP. 

Some times just doing it causes more angst and resentment and rather than a bonding and connecting experience, one or both parties come away feeling turned off, disgusted or even dirty and violated. 

When that is occurring, that is actually harming the relationship and is a detriment to the situation. 

Some people can and do have sex even though they don't really want to in the moment but once they get into it they get in the groove and it ends up being a positive and bonding experience. 

But for those where it doesn't work out that way, one of the quickest and surest ways of developing an actual sexual aversion and building of resentment and disdain is to try to force yourself through something you don't want to do. 

Things that work for people with healthy libidos, solid relationships and basic attraction to their partners, do not always work for people without those criteria intact.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

@AggieL,


AggieL said:


> I appreciate the strong sentiment and passion of your reply. I have had sex many, many times and in many, many different ways even when I didn't feel like it. I believe, as an individual on this thread remarked, that doing so has undermined our sexual connection. As I matured and took more responsibility for our sexual relationship I continued to have sex even if I didn't feel like it in a way that I owned and after discussion with my husband but the damage done from the years of "faking it" was done to him and me. I understand that our relationship has caused psychological and possibly even physical damage to my husband. I am heartbroken about that.


Have you read anything on the MarriageBuilders site about “Sexual Aversion”, and the “Policy of Joint Agreement”?

The post I quoted leaves me thinking there might be something useful for you there:






How to Overcome Sexual Aversion : Marriage Builders, Inc.


What if my spouse has an aversion to meeting the emotional need of sexual fulfillment in marriage?




www.marriagebuilders.com


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

badsanta said:


> You mentioned masturbation earlier and said that was a challenging topic. I would strongly encourage you to share everything on that topic about yourself with your husband. If possible try to demonstrate what you are capable of with him observing. Not an easy thing to do, but that is likely the key to making improvements. At least being about to talk about the topic comfortably with your spouse.
> 
> You can also take interest in his self gratification and try to participate indirectly. This seems incredibly awkward, but an example might include making sure that neither of you feel shame regarding that topic and are open to discussing things if the other has questions. Try to find ways that self gratification can become something that helps bring the two of you closer as opposed to drawing you apart. At the end of the day it is all about allowing your spouse to know you and completely see you. Once that happens it may help you each learn to better know how to make the other feel loved and accepted.


I'm not knocking your idea above in general. In a way I think it would be kind of hot and I wish my wife would try that and get into it (she won't)

But this falls under the Nike Campaign Strategy ("just do it") The Nike Strategy might work for some people who have intact and healthy sex drives, solid, loving and trusting relationships and basic sexual attraction and desire for their partners. All of these things are in question with this OP and if someone does not desire sex with someone, they are not going to want to be spanking infront of them not do they want that person spanking infront of them either. 
Again, I'm not knocking the suggestion because to a person with a normal, healthy sexual response and a loving, trusting relationship with their partner and a basic sexual desire for their partner, mutual masturbation does seem like it would be a minimally invasive and low impact and pretty nonthreatening activity. 

But to someone that may have some sexual aversion and some relationship and trust issues with their partner and have some kind of sexual hang ups with their partner, you might as well be asking for some kind of Roman orgy with circus midgets and big vats of Ramen Noodles. 

Let me put a spin on this to turn this back on you as an example - Picture in your mind's eye the fattest, smelliest, hairiest and most zit covered woman you can think of that you find obnoxious and brazen and that you have no sexual attraction or desire for at all........ Now how much do you want her spreading and fingering her lady bits in front of you and how much do you want to whip out your own junk and spank it in front of her????

My point here is, mutual masturbation is a pretty low-carb menu item with low impact and minimal invasiveness to someone with an intact sexual response and sincere attraction and desire for their partner. on the surface it seems like a legit starting point. 

But for someone with a distressed sexual response and dysfunctional sexual dynamic with their partner, it may be just as distressing and averse for them as anything else. If you don't want to have sex with someone, are you really going to want to drop your drawers and wank in front of them and have them wanking in front of you???

Most of us here on TAM are pretty sex-positive and want to have a healthy and hearty sex life and do love and are attracted to our partners and want to have sex with them. Our perspective is completely different from a CSA survivor who is having sexual desire issues with their spouse. What seems a simple no-brainer to us, can be an insurmountable mountain to them.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

AggieL said:


> I have a feeling there are many LD partners who do NOT have sexual trauma in their lives but maybe I am wrong. Maybe 95% of LD folks have some sort of sexual trauma. I have a feeling that is not true and that interests me because there are so many facets to my sexual issues with my husbands that I don't _think _have anything to do with trauma.


Not exactly what you asked for, but afaik, my wife is not here and not likely to ever be. Here is what I suspect about my wife and I’d situation if you are interested:

I do not believe my wife is a survivor of CSA or other sexual trauma. She has denied having any such trauma, when I asked once or twice within the last couple of years. During our four+ year engagement over 20+ years ago, she seemed to like sex, just not as much as me; she had had several partners before me, and presented as if she was comfortable with that and was happy being a sexual being.

I can only guess, but her current reported complete lack of interest in sex with me has deep roots in dynamics that occurred as we became parents two decades ago, grievances she’s had with me and her life as a wife and mother, hormonal changes, and long term use of alcohol to cope coupled with a husband that has taken a stand against it.




AggieL said:


> I'd like to know why, according to so many HD people I know and the posters on this forum, LD partners won't even talk to their spouse about sexual issues. I suppose if someone is unwilling to talk to their spouse, they probably won't post on a forum. Still, if you are out there, I'd be very grateful to hear your story or even just one part of it.


My wife has talked with me about it over the years, but only because I insisted we talk. My impression, ultimately, was it was difficult for her to talk about it for multiple reasons, including she felt bad for me, she resented me, she did not want to solve anything, she did not want to tell me things that would hurt me, and she wanted to hurt me by saying “you think that is bad, there are things so bad about you I can’t tell you” or something like that. Just my opinion, all of this, but I think when part of her still cared, talking and thinking about it flooded her with guilt or other negative emotions, and she preferred not engage.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not knocking your idea above in general. In a way I think it would be kind of hot and I wish my wife would try that and get into it (she won't)
> 
> But this falls under the Nike Campaign Strategy ("just do it") The Nike Strategy might work for some people who have intact and healthy sex drives, solid,  loving and trusting relationships and basic sexual attraction and desire for their partners. All of these things are in question with this OP and if someone does not desire sex with someone, they are not going to want to be spanking infront of them not do they want that person spanking infront of them either.
> Again, I'm not knocking the suggestion because to a person with a normal, healthy sexual response and a loving, trusting relationship with their partner and a basic sexual desire for their partner, mutual masturbation does seem like it would be a minimally invasive and low impact and pretty nonthreatening activity.
> ...


It's too bad your posts (nor mine) don't seem to mean anything around here. People just keep repeating their mantras and others coming into the discussion with more just do it nonsense and false comparisons. Even the OP said she doesn't understand those kinds of thought processes, so she clearly doesn't appreciate it, but no one listened to her either. Yikes.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

I 


StarFires said:


> It's too bad your posts (nor mine) don't seem to mean anything around here. People just keep repeating their mantras and others coming into the discussion with more just do it nonsense and false comparisons. Even the OP said she doesn't understand those kinds of thought processes, so she clearly doesn't appreciate it, but no one listened to her either. Yikes.


I think you’re conflating “just do it” with trying to understand the reasons an individual can’t. I believe the latter is useful for the LD person to explore and explain. It’s not about telling someone to just buckle up and hang on for the ride. It’s more about understanding what may be an aversion, not a choice.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> This may become a very interesting thread.
> 
> I’m pressed for time but I want to say something about the, “just do it” suggestions that get passed around here frequently.
> 
> ...


The time bomb and homosexual encounter are straw man arguments and not relevant here.

I understand this is a difficult issue. But you can't make a blanket statement that people who don't want to have sex are likely to develop an aversion. Not everyone has trauma in their lives triggering that lack of desire. Sometimes people just have to get to it before they get into it (I've had partners like that). Plenty of people are able to provide for their partners simply to honor the relationship. It depends on the individual.

And, not to be a jerk, but if you buy that low-drive people are harmed by sex they don't want, you need to understand that not having sex has a cost as well. Right or wrong, people (particularly younger people) who won't have regular sex have poorer relationship prospects than those who will. Honestly, if you are a 25 year-old man or woman and say "I love you but I hate sex", how many takers would you have? Would you try a little harder if you knew there were consequences to not having sex?

I say that because of some interactions I've had with my ex wife. I worked hard to communicate with her for our daughter's sake, and we get along well now. I can tell that she dislikes being single as much as if not more than she dislikes sex. She withheld affection from me and (from what our kid said) from her second husband. Now, she grouses regularly about how hard life is on her own, about how she doesn't have a special person to face the world with, throws shade when she finds out I'm getting serious with someone.

It was surprising and sad to see she's lonely and unhappy, to the point my kid and I would include her in stuff. I'd bet my next paycheck she wishes she had been more accommodating over the 20 years total she was married.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> I think you’re conflating “just do it” with trying to understand the reasons an individual can’t. I believe the latter is useful for the LD person to explore and explain. It’s not about telling someone to just buckle up and hang on for the ride. It’s more about understanding what may be an aversion, not a choice.


You're responding to what I said because you think I was referring to you, but I wasn't. I noted (I think on page 1 to MinimalMe) that you make your meaning and intentions perfectly clear and excluded you from my comments about the just do it mentality brigade.

But I don't think you should apply your purpose, meaning, and intentions to everyone else because most have no more motive or intent than to tell the LD person in so many words to just do it, or to tell the complaining partner of the LD person that their spouse doesn't love/care about them or they would just do it. However they word it, that's all it means and that's all they mean by it. Did you miss some of the responses in this thread (on page 1 for example)? Have you missed the responses in the multitude of other threads of this same or similar topic?

You're probably the most long-suffering, understanding, and determined person I've ever known. But not everyone is like you. Don't confuse or include their lack of intention with your well-meaning motives.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DTO said:


> you can't make a blanket statement that people who don't want to have sex are likely to develop an aversion. Not everyone has trauma in their lives triggering that lack of desire. Sometimes people just have to get to it before they get into it (I've had partners like that). Plenty of people are able to provide for their partners simply to honor the relationship. It depends on the individual.
> 
> And, not to be a jerk, but if you buy that low-drive people are harmed by sex they don't want, you need to understand that not having sex has a cost as well. Right or wrong, people (particularly younger people) who won't have regular sex have poorer relationship prospects than those who will. Honestly, if you are a 25 year-old man or woman and say "I love you but I hate sex", how many takers would you have? Would you try a little harder if you knew there were consequences to not having sex?


It is true that not all LD have trauma or CSA in their past. - but this OP DOES.

It is probably also true that some people that sex when they don’t really want to may not develop an aversion- but this OP HAS.

Now regarding the Nike Strategy and just doing in hopes that they will eventually be ok with it and that if they don’t comply with it that they will lose the marriage or lose significant relationships and be alone etc etc. -

You do realize that is the exact same strategyband exact same verbiage that molestors use to manipulate their victims don’t you?

CSA victims have already heard from their mom’s boyfriend or Uncle Ernie that if they just lay back and do it that it will feel good and they will like it.

They have also heard that if they don’t comply that they will lose relationships and families will be broken and they will end up alone.

I am close to an adult CSA survivor who was told by her MOTHER that if she made a fuss and reported her stepfather molesting her and fought his advances that he would either leave and leave them penniless and her siblings would suffer due to the poverty or she would be taken out of the home and wouldn’t be with her mother and siblings and neighborhood friends.

That is what CSA victims have already been though as part of their trauma and coercion and manipulation so do you think telling them that they should just comply and do what they don’t want will work out and that if they don’t they will lose their marriage and access to their children is going to give them the warm fuzzys and make want to hop into bed for a good romp???


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> ...to someone that may have some sexual aversion and some relationship and trust issues with their partner and have some kind of sexual hang ups with their partner, you might as well be asking...


When it comes to the topic of self pleasure I am mostly recommending that the OP try and be open to talking about it. Obviously they love and care for one another, so there is no need to instill the idea that someone or something is extremely shameful about the topic. It is about removing shame and building trust. 

At the end of the day if something is giving you problems, it is "talking" about it that helps it improve. If the OP has only ever been able to reach orgasm solo, I think it would be helpful for her husband to be aware of this so that he knows that she is capable and that there may be hope if they can work through things. 

Easier said than done obviously. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

DTO said:


> I say that because of some interactions I've had with my ex wife. I worked hard to communicate with her for our daughter's sake, and we get along well now. I can tell that she dislikes being single as much as if not more than she dislikes sex. She withheld affection from me and (from what our kid said) from her second husband. Now, she grouses regularly about how hard life is on her own, about how she doesn't have a special person to face the world with, throws shade when she finds out I'm getting serious with someone.


Well this is what happens when you slowly strangle the golden goose. I think it shows the marriage was more about her safety and comfort than anything else. Also funny how the new husband isn’t a “special person”, I’m sure he’d love to know that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> It sounds like part of the problem may be an expectation that sex for your should mean the same as sex for him, and that's not realistic. It's kind of similar to thinking sex isn't working if the couple don't orgasm at the same time. Sex can be enjoyed for its closeness for one party and for the physical release by the other and both can be happy, both can understand that it's working for their partner and that they are an integral part of it working for them.
> 
> If my wife enjoyed sex only because it gave me pleasure, it wouldn't be ultimate sex, but it certainly wouldn't be bad. _If_ she was enjoying it. For whatever reason. We have to respect our partner's desire to please sometimes. If you're putting yourself out there for him because you love him, and that makes you feel good, and he's not approaching sex from a selfish standpoint but sees the love and care being offered up, that's probably better intimacy than many experience.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the Terence Real recommendation. I have not heard of him and always welcome a suggestion for sexual trauma professional help. 

"If you're putting yourself out there for him because you love him, and that makes you feel good, and he's not approaching sex from a selfish standpoint but sees the love and care being offered up, that's probably better intimacy than many experience."

This is a lovely statement. There have been many times when it does work this way for us. Gosh, there are so many complicated layers to a long term sexual relationship. On this particular point I will comment that the reason the above does not sustain us is that I have not been consistent in my "giving" for a variety of reasons with mood/energy issues and a fear of breaking down in the middle of "giving" and not being able to complete in a positive way what I started being at the top of the list. He understands these concerns. As time goes by sex has become a minefield for him, where he has to worry and wonder what he can and can't do. He is left with little to contribute (since I usually want nothing sexually from him) and feels badly letting me do all of the giving and also deeply frustrated at not being able to express his love for me in the way he seems born to do, with sexual creativity. This is a dynamic we are both aware of. He gives to me in many many other ways but also physically in the form of back and foot rubs which I generally adore...not so much as an aphrodisiac as much as a relaxing, stress reliever.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

bobert said:


> I'm currently in a really bad mood, overwhelmed, and about one second away from a mental breakdown so I'm probably going to read/take anything the wrong way. I shouldn't be saying anything at all right now so ignore that.


I am thinking of you. I am so sorry for your distress. The 48 hours on this forum has already helped me so please know I am grateful to you and others an truly hope your pain eases soon.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> Why doesn't the LD partner participate in conversations? Perhaps because the LD partner may attempt to live in his or her own world in which the LD either isn't a problem or is able to off-load the problem as being the HD's fault for being HD.
> 
> My wife believed she was in a very happy marriage. She told everyone this. She believed this. While at the same time rejecting me completely, telling me if sex was important I should have an affair or see a hooker, and finally telling me she's resented sex for 40 years. All the while believing she had a happy marriage.
> 
> ...


"Being happy in a relationship where your partner has expressed serious issues would require that you reassess the relationship."

That is a pretty spot on statement. My husband has often expressed sadness and hurt when we are in a particularly difficult period in our marriage and yet I will seem happy, spending time with family and friends seemingly unfazed. I have told him that I try very hard not to carry the pain of our relationship everywhere I go. I feel I must continue to find joy in life no matter what we are going through. I stand by this BUT I am learning to lean into the sadness more and not rush off to work, hobbies, friends, alcohol to relieve. I am learning to drop certain things I care about in life to spend more time working on the thing I care about most of all. It's not easy.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

StarFires said:


> You're responding to what I said because you think I was referring to you, but I wasn't. I noted (I think on page 1 to MinimalMe) that you make your meaning and intentions perfectly clear and excluded you from my comments about the just do it mentality brigade.


But people reading these posts often down go through the entire thread, or may have trouble separating the players. And other ways to lose context for a remark. 



> But I don't think you should apply your purpose, meaning, and intentions to everyone else because most have no more motive or intent than to tell the LD person in so many words to just do it, or to tell the complaining partner of the LD person that their spouse doesn't love/care about them or they would just do it. However they word it, that's all it means and that's all they mean by it. Did you miss some of the responses in this thread (on page 1 for example)? Have you missed the responses in the multitude of other threads of this same or similar topic?


I don't apply my purpose and meaning to everyone else; I present it as an alternative way of looking at things, a bit different take than most have. I also post as a cautionary tale to those who are recently or maybe "just" 10 years ago married. I think most end up divorced long before 41 years of marriage, and they may not have a clue as to what was really going on. If they're having sexual issues it may be a good idea to visit boundary and privacy issues, as well as any undeclared baggage. That's a good way to avoid getting into the feeling that he or she should just take it for the team, just do it. 



> You're probably the most long-suffering, understanding, and determined person I've ever known. But not everyone is like you. Don't confuse or include their lack of intention with your well-meaning motives.


Thank goodness most would have found a way to deal with things much sooner than me... good thing they're not like me! But my tale is not only cautionary but also hopeful. It's OK for some to think the correct description would be pathetic.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

StarFires said:


> We might be getting somewhere with this. I take that to mean you're saying you get nothing out of the sexual act itself, right? Lots of people who take the blame for this really are not to blame at all. They just don't know what they are supposed to get out of it. And since nothing is forthcoming, they think that's all there is. For example (and I'm just cutting to the chase here), I wonder if you and he engage in oral sex. Specifically, does he go down on you? You say the only way you can orgasm is by masturbation, so is that a sexual aversion due to trauma that you don't enjoy oral sex and don't orgasm, or is it that he doesn't do it in such a way that is enjoyable for you and doesn't bring you to orgasm? How do you know the difference in order to take the blame on yourself?
> 
> This is the reason both your inexperience concerns me. He being inexperienced could mean, and often does mean, that he doesn't know how to make love to a woman very well. Your inexperience could mean you don't have much to compare him to and since he does various acts (intercourse, oral sex, etc. - whatever he does), you take it for what it is without knowing there could/should be more to it. So, it's possible you blame yourself for not feeling anything from what he's doing.
> 
> ...


Wow. You offer so much in this post I truly feel like I need to print it out and study it. I am okay with offering specifics but as you suspected I did not post with the intention of detailing my own story. I am thinking it could be a good idea though. I will need to find a good chunk of time (always an issue) to write out more of my story. Your thoughts on technique are a possibility as I've always always felt that my sexual problems are a combo of about 12 very specific and difficult issues that include past trauma but are certainly not limited to trauma. Seriously, thank you and I will revisit this reply.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> @AggieL,
> 
> From what you write, it sounds like the two of you have been to marriage counseling. Have you been to individual counseling? You might very well benefit from seeing an individual counselor who is also a sex therapist.
> 
> Have you spoken to your doctor about your low sex drive? It could be a hormonal issue as well.



I have been to multiple individual counselors since my young adulthood, multiple marriage counselors and recently, a sex therapist. I have to say that this forum, in just 48 hours, has been more powerful for me than any of the above. It could be timing. I will say that I have had other issues in my life where a dear therapist has helped tremendously but not regarding sex.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

AggieL said:


> Thank you for the Terence Real recommendation. I have not heard of him and always welcome a suggestion for sexual trauma professional help.
> 
> "If you're putting yourself out there for him because you love him, and that makes you feel good, and he's not approaching sex from a selfish standpoint but sees the love and care being offered up, that's probably better intimacy than many experience."
> 
> This is a lovely statement. There have been many times when it does work this way for us. Gosh, there are so many complicated layers to a long term sexual relationship. On this particular point I will comment that the reason the above does not sustain us is that I have not been consistent in my "giving" for a variety of reasons with mood/energy issues and a fear of breaking down in the middle of "giving" and not being able to complete in a positive way what I started being at the top of the list. He understands these concerns. As time goes by sex has become a minefield for him, where he has to worry and wonder what he can and can't do. He is left with little to contribute (since I usually want nothing sexually from him) and feels badly letting me do all of the giving and also deeply frustrated at not being able to express his love for me in the way he seems born to do, with sexual creativity. This is a dynamic we are both aware of. *He gives to me in many many other ways but also physically in the form of back and foot rubs which I generally adore...not so much as an aphrodisiac as much as a relaxing, stress reliever.*


So this is where it gets interesting and complicated. Your husband. What does HE get from giving you back and foot rubs? With normal boundary settings, YOU are the ONLY woman he could give back rubs and foot rubs to. It is something special partly for that reason. Do you command him to give you back rubs and foot rubs? I doubt it. He does so out of kindness and love. That's his motivation. It brings him pleasure doing it for you, with you.

What is it we can't see sex in the same way? I'll bet he LOVES giving you back and foot rubs. So what is it about sex that you can't feel the same way? I'm not equating the two, but there is something to think about in this.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> Sex is different because it's an "appetite".
> 
> You don't crave doing "so different from so many other things that we might gladly do for someone?"
> 
> ...


Appetite is a great analogy. There are multiple sources of my lack of sexual appetite. I know quite a few but am probably not recognizing or facing all of them... past trauma, mild hormonal mood disorder (my self diagnosis but I am looking into it more seriously), intrusive thoughts (if I a read about a tragedy or am concerned about one of my children I am overcome with feelings for some time and have no surefire way of putting it out of my mind), alcohol use (currently under control/not drinking at all these days and all the better for it) and mostly a husband whose heart and mind and creative spirit and body all seem to thrive off of sexual energy which always, always overwhelms me .


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

AggieL said:


> Appetite is a great analogy. There are multiple sources of my lack of sexual appetite. I know quite a few but am probably not recognizing or facing all of them... past trauma, mild hormonal mood disorder (my self diagnosis but I am looking into it more seriously), intrusive thoughts (if I a read about a tragedy or am concerned about one of my children I am overcome with feelings for some time and have no surefire way of putting it out of my mind), alcohol use (currently under control/not drinking at all these days and all the better for it) and mostly a husband whose heart and mind and creative spirit and body all seem to thrive off of sexual energy which always, always overwhelms me .


I'm not a fan of the "appetite" analogy because there are a whole lot of things I love doing for my wife that I would never do if I wasn't married to her and loved her. Examples-

Cleaning the kitchen after a meal
Most of the places we go on vacation
Making sure she always has a glass of water with ice available
Extensive backrubs and footrubs
Going out to dinner at places that serve pretty bland food

An odd mix there, but the common denominator is that I have learned to enjoy these things, I do these things, because they are for her, because she appreciates them, because it makes me happy that she's happy. 

I used to avoid the kitchen like the plague. Who wouldn't. Until I realized, that's time I can spend with her, making her life easier. And it has become something I absolutely look forward to.

The vacations- I'm a very physical kind of guy; I like to tax myself. I would want to climb mountains and cross streams and feel alive! My wife is very sedentary (pretty overweight) and could never keep up so our vacations have to be planned accordingly. Am I bored? Do I think about what I would rather be doing, the bucket list places I'm missing? Not at all. I'm making my wife really happy and feeling loved. 

The glass of water thing is just one of many little things around the house; I look for and try to anticipate her needs and take care of them. Why wouldn't I? If I can, I will.

The backrubs and footrubs were covered in another post.

The bland food... I like to try just about anything. If fried bugs are on the menu, I gotta try them, y'know? Whatever the local cuisine I'll at least try it. My wife will look for a chain restaurant that she knows. So I miss out on an awful lot of interesting stuff, but my wife is happy.

Is there a secret? Maybe. I can't remember who said it, but it's this 5-second thing. You can't give yourself more than 5 seconds to contemplate something, or you might as well not do it. Under 5 seconds you just go into action and it's not something you think all the wrong stuff about. You do it and it seems like a good idea. Maybe some of it is that, if you can take action in 5 seconds, you accept ownership or co-ownership of the idea. It's a complete buy-in with no possibility of remorse.

Of all the things I bring up here on TAM, I think this is the one thing people have the hardest time wrapping their head around. And the real irony is that, more often than not, I'm accused of over-thinking things, and here I'm saying the key is to not think, just act.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> I'm not a fan of the "appetite" analogy...


Imagine you just ate your absolute favorite food and for completely unrelated reasons you got severely nauseous and threw it up. The body creates a correlation that makes the idea of eating your favorite food again rather repulsive. This is a good analogy as if your appetite for food experienced a trauma that later made something yummy seem unappetizing. Your appetite for your favorite food may return, but it will likely be a slow and moderate process. Some people after throwing up will never eat that meal again regardless of the cause.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Imagine you just ate your absolute favorite food and for completely unrelated reasons you got severely nauseous and threw it up. The body creates a correlation that makes the idea of eating your favorite food again rather repulsive. This is a good analogy as if your appetite for food experienced a trauma that later made something yummy seem unappetizing. Your appetite for your favorite food may return, but it will likely be a slow and moderate process. Some people after throwing up will never eat that meal again regardless of the cause.


Says everyone that's ever had a hangover !!
😎😎😎

Ha!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Says everyone that's ever had a hangover !!
> 😎😎😎
> 
> Ha!


In that case the nervous system was too impaired to create a correlation.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

AggieL,

Thank You for posting, I think your post will help many people, both the ones who are responding to you including myself, and the much more numerous ones who are too ashamed or reluctant to post. 

Don't be surprised by a wide range of responses and ideas, as with any complex topic no one person understands it each of us sees only a portion.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

StarFires said:


> Oftentimes, people, mostly women, are afraid to speak the truth for fear of hurting their partner's feelings. Can you imagine telling someone they are no good in bed or you don't like having sex with them? Most women cannot form their lips to speak words like that. A lot of women have had the experience of their partner asking "Was it good for you? That's a clueless question from a clueless and inconsiderate lover, but the women invariably answer "Yes." Why? Because it's easier and doesn't hurt anybody's feelings. So, there ends up being the multitude of men who say "I thought she didn't like sex but found out she just didn't like sex with me" after his lover found a new lover. It's still rather clueless because he still doesn't know why she didn't like sex with him. Or the women who say "I thought I didn't like sex but found out I just didn't like sex with him" after they discovered with another lover how good and satisfying sex could be.
> 
> It may be just as often that they don't know what the truth is or how to talk to about it. A lot of women don't know what the problem is. They only know they don't like it or that something is missing since many women don't know what feels good to them until they experience something that feels good. Then they know but until then, there was nothing to talk about and no solutions to suggest since they don't know what the solutions are. How can a woman who never experienced an orgasm be able to tell her partner how to make her orgasm? How can a woman who never experienced good and satisfying sex tell her partner how to make sex good and satisfying?
> 
> ...


Thank you. This is an illuminating set of explanations for why different people cannot or will not talk with their spouses about their lack of sexual desire or lack of sexual openness. I realize that I fall into many of these categories and only after twenty plus years of marriage have I been able to express almost all of what inhibits me and even now, _almost _not all. In my experience I tend to feel sooo much better after admitting to an aversion or a painful experience or something that just doesn't do it for me because I have unburdened myself. However, it seems my husband always takes it hard and even though he has been driving himself crazy trying to guess what might be wrong, when he hears a specific, it hurts and he holds it, forever.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not LD so I do not want it to come off sounding like I am trying to speak for them or anything but other than the LD sub on Reddit, that I mentioned above, I don't think there are large groups of LD people on relationship forums seeking better understanding of their sexual dynamics.
> 
> I think you will find betrayed spouses (BS) on adultery forums that are hurt and disgusted by their partner's infidelity but then you find out they haven't had sex with them themselves for years.
> 
> ...


"There for, you don't really see them much on sex/relationship forums unless their partner has an issue with it and is pressuring them to find a way to become more sexually responsive and they are at risk of losing a relationship that they would otherwise like to keep if it weren't for the sexual issue."

But aren't they at risk? If not at risk of divorce at least at risk of living a sort of "fake" life, not in all respects of course, but most couples understand when they are off and after years and years of being off, I would think the risk of fall out from communicating would be better than the heavy and painful status quo. Still, I do understand that many couples have a financial situation that could be compromised if the status quo is upset and that is probably a major concern and inhibitor of honest discussion for some.


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

PieceOfSky said:


> Seems to me his best opportunity here is to recognize the physical intimacy you give him is lovingly given and an honest expression of his value to you.
> 
> Such a gift from my wife, given with some non-zero frequency lovingly, not begrudgingly, would have meant the world to me. Maybe there is something you two can discover and address that is presently preventing him from receiving it that way.
> 
> ...



My past issues with empathy for my husband is related, I think, to the fact that we are so close. For the most part, the pain he seems to experience in life _almost always _has to do with our relationship. In those cases, your statement about struggling to empathize because of being in touch with my own guilt (or just plain defensiveness) is probably the case. This message board is helping me TREMENDOUSLY in terms of feeling empathy for his pain without worrying about my role in his pain. I've gotten better at the other situations where he is upset and I was not empathetic. In those instances it was hard for me to be on my husband's side as I always felt like his issues could be solved if he acted differently. For example, if he was upset by a co-worker or boss, I could totally see why the boss/co-worker reacted to my husband and/or even if the co-worker or boss's behavior or comment was out of nowhere, I could see so clearly how my husband could handled it differently. YEARS LATER, I have learned to just listen and love. I am ashamed at the way I handled multiple instances in the past. I can listen and love for everyone else in my life (I do have trouble with my kids too for similar reasons) but I think I felt like my husband was an extension of myself or something like that.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

AggieL said:


> But aren't they at risk? If not at risk of divorce at least at risk of living a sort of "fake" life, not in all respects of course, but most couples understand when they are off and after years and years of being off, I would think the risk of fall out from communicating would be better than the heavy and painful status quo.


The fall out for my marriage wasn't from lack of communication. It was from the attempts to overcome a problem with no solution. Two people that far apart on the sexual preferences spectrum will not find a happy medium, though they talk to each other 'til blue in the face. The gap is just too wide to bridge for some of us.

When acceptance comes, in the truest "this is who you are, you cannot change, and neither can I" sense, then yes, hope for change dies along with it. Whether or not you can then find contentment in that state is the only remaining question - not if it can be altered.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

AggieL said:


> .....it seems my husband always takes it hard and even though he has been driving himself crazy trying to guess what might be wrong, when he hears a specific, it hurts and he holds it, forever.


Men do have sensitive egos. It is not easy to hear that whatever you are doing might be problematic. 

On the other hand I think men are very open to suggestions and ideas of NEW things to try. As if you want to help him improve his ways of loving you instead of being critical of what he already tends to do. Odds are he may be willing and happy to try something if approached in this manner. And you don't have to worry about hurting his ego.

The problem with making suggestions and allowing your husband to try something new is that it will need to be backed up with self confidence and a willingness from you to enjoy being selfish about your own desires in your husband's presence. *It may be difficult to stop paying attention to him and if he is uncomfortable while trying something in order to allow yourself to enjoy being pleased. * THAT tends to be the most challenging thing that often needs improvement. 

How does this dynamic work in other areas of your personality. Are you willing to let your husband give you a long back rub without him expecting anything in return? When it is the holidays and time for gifts, are you someone that everyone has an easy time knowing exactly what to get for you, or are you someone that is difficult for friends and family to know what gifts you might like? If you want something in particular for dinner but your husband wants something else, who is it that tends to get their way most of the time? 

In a lot that I have read about sexuality, so much boils down to being able to be selfish (in a loving way). This means being confident about informing others what it takes to make you happy. Everyone enjoys helping make their loved one's happy, but that can be impossible when someone does not have the confidence to speak up for themselves and indicate what it is they need/want. 

A good example might be someone that needs personal space. That person may hesitate to tell a loved one that it is not a good time to be close with one another out of fear of hurting the other person's feelings. The other person then tries to be close, but the whole time feels disconnected from there being emotional discomfort from the person that needed some alone time. In the meantime most people understand and appreciate the need for personal space and are often happy to help accommodate when requested knowing that time together at a later moment will likely be more enjoyable. That is a small example of being selfish about your needs in a loving way that helps those around you know what you need/want in order to be happy. It can often be very difficult to do if you are focused more on trying to make everyone else happy other than yourself. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

AggieL said:


> "There for, you don't really see them much on sex/relationship forums unless their partner has an issue with it and is pressuring them to find a way to become more sexually responsive and they are at risk of losing a relationship that they would otherwise like to keep if it weren't for the sexual issue."
> 
> But aren't they at risk? If not at risk of divorce at least at risk of living a sort of "fake" life, not in all respects of course, but most couples understand when they are off and after years and years of being off, I would think the risk of fall out from communicating would be better than the heavy and painful status quo. Still, I do understand that many couples have a financial situation that could be compromised if the status quo is upset and that is probably a major concern and inhibitor of honest discussion for some.


This is interesting, your response.

I do think the LD, ( or partner with issues) is at risk of losing the relationship. I am also not LD, I am HD, but I can tell you that if any women I was with unilaterally said no sex or sex twice a year, I would be done.

I know there a lots of people, guys and girls, the would stay. Some would cheat, some would ask for open relationships, some would just be miserable, but if they are at least normal drive, the are not going to be happy.

And this is where I find your situation difficult to understand. You say you love your husband, he is a great guy, you don't want an open relationship, and you want to stay married to him, but you don't want to have sex.

So from my perspective, I don't know why he would stay in the marriage. He may, but I assure you he will not be happy.

I am just wondering how you feel about what I have said, or how you think your husband would feel. Or not...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> I do think the LD, ( or partner with issues) is at risk of losing the relationship. I am also not LD, I am HD, but I can tell you that if any women I was with unilaterally said no sex or sex twice a year, I would be done.
> 
> And this is where I find your situation difficult to understand. You say you love your husband, he is a great guy, you don't want an open relationship, and you want to stay married to him, but you don't want to have sex.
> 
> So from my perspective, I don't know why he would stay in the marriage. He may, but I assure you he will not be happy.


I am going to take this a couple steps further. 

Not only would I not want to be in a relationship with someone who had no romantic/sexual attraction or desire for me-

But I also cannot understand why they would want to be with me.

In fact I would be downright suspicious and leery of their agenda. 

Why would someone want to be in a relationship with someone they did not desire? So they could unclog the toilet and kill spiders🕷???

Yeah, where do I sign up for that? 

Do they simply want someone else to pay their bills and provide them a more comfortable lifestyle than what they can afford on their own??

If someone is benefitting from the other’s resources and goods but not providing anything for the other - isn’t that the definition of a parasite? 

Hookers, escorts, massage parlors and sugar babies etc may not have a sincere for their jons either but at least they do provide an agreed upon service and are upfront about what their costs and requirements will be. 

IMHO they are more honest and honorable than a woman that leads a man to believe she desires him and will have a sex life with him and then lives off of his provisioning while saying she has a headache and not in the mood for months and years. 

The professional is at least up front about what the fee for service will be.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> This is interesting, your response.
> 
> I do think the LD, ( or partner with issues) is at risk of losing the relationship.


Unfortunately, the process of counseling may be one of the reasons the LD partner doesn't realize they are at risk of losing the relationship, because most elements of counseling do not seek to place blame, especially if there has not been infidelity. Invariably it will come up that frequency for "normal" sex is all over the map, giving further solace to the LD partner that he or she isn't so bad and not the problem. 

Further complicating things is power. The LD partner is in control. He or she is the gatekeeper for all-things-sex and that is a huge amount of control and power. And now you're asking that person to give that up. It may be the only thing in their life where they really do feel strong and powerful.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> Unfortunately, the process of counseling may be one of the reasons the LD partner doesn't realize they are at risk of losing the relationship, because most elements of counseling do not seek to place blame, especially if there has not been infidelity. Invariably it will come up that frequency for "normal" sex is all over the map, giving further solace to the LD partner that he or she isn't so bad and not the problem.


Is this not in fact the truth? It might just as well be blamed on the HD partner, if blame is to be assigned.

Which it should not. The problem is not with the individuals, but with their conjoined system.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Must admit that while I cant abide cheaters, the one time I can sort of understand it is if they have a spouse who refuses sex or will only have sex very rarely. Its so important for a marriage to have regular sex, even if you dont always feel like it or want it. Do it for your spouses happiness, to keep the marriage strong and to stop temptation.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Must admit that while I cant abide cheaters, the one time I can sort of understand it is if they have a spouse who refuses sex or will only have sex very rarely. Its so important for a marriage to have regular sex, even if you dont always feel like it or want it. Do it for your spouses happiness, to keep the marriage strong and to stop temptation.


I think the reason it's so hard for the LD spouse to recognize the importance sex might have in the relationship is because it has provided them an element of power & control, as I was saying earlier. It's hard to want to relinquish that. It would be like giving in, especially if it's been years, decades in the making.

I still don't really understand why "sex" is so different from everything else one might lovingly do for their spouse... things they wouldn't do otherwise, things that have no real meaning for themselves, but they do it because it's special for their spouse. Sex doesn't seem to fit into that category for most. Perhaps because, growing up, we're taught that offering sex to our partner is giving "all" of ourselves. Maybe it becomes a been-there done-that type of thing? You move on? I don't understand that. 

We marry, supposedly, for life. To have and to hold. In sickness and in health. Good times and bad. We create a bonded couple, and part of that bond is sex. Early on we'd never even question that. But as we get older sex may become a tool, or something selfish. When we're younger sex isn't just physical, but it's also connected with love and emotion. Do we have less love, less emotion for each other, just because we're older?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> I think the reason it's so hard for the LD spouse to recognize the importance sex might have in the relationship is because it has provided them an element of power & control, as I was saying earlier. It's hard to want to relinquish that. It would be like giving in, especially if it's been years, decades in the making.
> 
> I still don't really understand why "sex" is so different from everything else one might lovingly do for their spouse... things they wouldn't do otherwise, things that have no real meaning for themselves, but they do it because it's special for their spouse. Sex doesn't seem to fit into that category for most. Perhaps because, growing up, we're taught that offering sex to our partner is giving "all" of ourselves. Maybe it becomes a been-there done-that type of thing? You move on? I don't understand that.
> 
> We marry, supposedly, for life. To have and to hold. In sickness and in health. Good times and bad. We create a bonded couple, and part of that bond is sex. Early on we'd never even question that. But as we get older sex may become a tool, or something selfish. When we're younger sex isn't just physical, but it's also connected with love and emotion. Do we have less love, less emotion for each other, just because we're older?


Yes I agree. We all do things for our spouse and children that aren't always pleasant or easy or what we feel like doing, but we do them out of love and commitment and to make them happy. To meet their needs and to strengthen the marriage. Some here seem to react badly when I suggest that you can have sex just because you love your spouse whatever you yourself feel like, if your libido is low, or you have little or no desire. They say it doesn't work, I disagree with them.
It seems that if you yourself don't feel like it or don't find it easy, then it's ok to always say no. If we want our spouse to be happy, remain faithful, and to have a good close marriage, then surely we should make that effort.? For a spouse who knows that their husband or wife may struggle in this area but who still makesthat effort, surely they will be grateful for that effort put in because of their love for their spouse.
I appreciate that some were abused as children and its not easy, several people
in my family were sexually abused, thankfully 2 of them have very happy marriages. Also thankfully there is a lot of help and support now with counseling and therapy for those who were abused.
For those who know that they never want sex or who struggle with it, honestly early in a relationship is needed I would have thought.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I am going to take this a couple steps further.
> 
> Not only would I not want to be in a relationship with someone who had no romantic/sexual attraction or desire for me-
> 
> ...


There are millions of people that marry to a) get a standard of living or social status never attainable had they stayed single OR b) don’t want to be alone. OR c) just want a family not a lover. They literally want friends with benefits (as long as they aren’t sexual benefits).

Sex is pretty much the one thing you can stop participating in within a marriage with no legal consequences. Can’t stop paying bills or talk care of kids without legal problems.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

aaarghdub said:


> There are millions of people that marry to a) get a standard of living or social status never attainable had they stayed single OR b) don’t want to be alone. OR c) just want a family not a lover. They literally want friends with benefits (as long as they aren’t sexual benefits).
> 
> Sex is pretty much the one thing you can stop participating in within a marriage with no legal consequences. Can’t stop paying bills or talk care of kids without legal problems.
> 
> ...


Only if the person you married is a willing participant in remaining in the sexless marriage with you. Otherwise you DO have a legal consequence-- it's called divorce.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> I think the reason it's so hard for the LD spouse to recognize the importance sex might have in the relationship is because it has provided them an element of power & control, as I was saying earlier. It's hard to want to relinquish that. It would be like giving in, especially if it's been years, decades in the making.
> 
> I still don't really understand why "sex" is so different from everything else one might lovingly do for their spouse...


Sex is different than other needs for at least 2 main reasons.

First, sex is the only need where we vow monogamy. If I like ice hockey or sushi, and my spouse does not, my spouse may not care much if I grab a friend to get a "dose" of my desired activity. If I hate cleaning toilets, I probably won't complain if my spouse hires a cleaning service and take that task off my plate. But if I like sex with my spouse, and my spouse isn't very motivated to have sex with me, they are very unlikely to permit me to outsource that activity. THAT is where the overwhelming power comes from - the shared understanding that cheating sexually is a deal breaker. So if the HD spouse wants sex, they may have to sacrifice the entire relationship to get it. Often the HD spouse is unwilling to pay the price for their freedom. In which case, as you say, the LD gets to call all the shots in the relationship.

Second, sex is exceedingly personal. It is one of the most vulnerable human activities. Very hard to hide "who you are" when naked and having sex. When you add in the high rates of rape and sexual abuse in our society, you end up with a high percentage of people who are uncomfortable with sex in general, and find undesired sex intolerable. I hate sushi. If my wife wanted me to eat sushi with her every week, much less every day, I would find that intolerable. I have no trouble understanding why she cannot lovingly offer me undesired sex.

Now. Easy for me to understand it now. I did not understand at all for the first 20+ years of our marriage. I didn't want to understand. Because understanding made me realize it was wrong for us to ever have sex. I didn't want to realize that reality. So I never let myself understand what made sex so difficult for her to offer.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

aaarghdub said:


> There are millions of people that marry to a) get a standard of living or social status never attainable had they stayed single OR b) don’t want to be alone. OR c) just want a family not a lover. They literally want friends with benefits (as long as they aren’t sexual benefits).
> 
> Sex is pretty much the one thing you can stop participating in within a marriage with no legal consequences. Can’t stop paying bills or talk care of kids without legal problems.
> 
> ...


Divorce would be a legal consequence for not having sex. 

But that is assuming someone actually has the balls/ovaries to leave. when you consider the number of people that come on this site and whine about moan that their spouse hasn't laid a finger on them in years but yet they do nothing about it, then I guess in that sense you are correct in that they have no consequences. 

.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Yes I agree. We all do things for our spouse and children that aren't always pleasant or easy or what we feel like doing, but we do them out of love and commitment and to make them happy. To meet their needs and to strengthen the marriage. Some here seem to react badly when I suggest that you can have sex just because you love your spouse whatever you yourself feel like, if your libido is low, or you have little or no desire. They say it doesn't work, I disagree with them.
> It seems that if you yourself don't feel like it or don't find it easy, then it's ok to always say no. If we want our spouse to be happy, remain faithful, and to have a good close marriage, then surely we should make that effort.? For a spouse who knows that their husband or wife may struggle in this area but who still makesthat effort, surely they will be grateful for that effort put in because of their love for their spouse.
> I appreciate that some were abused as children and its not easy, several people
> in my family were sexually abused, thankfully 2 of them have very happy marriages. Also thankfully there is a lot of help and support now with counseling and therapy for those who were abused.
> For those who know that they never want sex or who struggle with it, honestly early in a relationship is needed I would have thought.


The part I am not sure you are quite getting though is that for some people, sex with their partner is so horrible and even physically painful and traumatic, that it is not a loving and bonding act at all but one of torment and degradation. 
Some people are simply gross and fat and smelly and not take care of themselves or shower or brush the tobacco out of their brown teeth etc. 

Some people experience actual physical pain during sex but their partners pin them down and stick it to them anyway. 

As in everything, there are degrees and the devil is in the details. yes there are lots of people that are simply busy with every day life stuff and chasing kids and trying to keep most of the clothes and dishes clean that don't have sex on their mind that need a little push and a little extra encouragement to leave the clothes sitting in the dryer (a mortal sin with my wife, but a guy can always dream) and have a little special together time and somewhere in the middle of it, it does become pleasurable and ends up being a satisfying and loving and bonding and positive experience for both. I get that and I understand where you are coming from. 

But that is not everyone's experience. For some people, sex is a downright traumatic and tormenting experience. Some people are inept and bad lovers at best, for which their partner gets no enjoyment or pleasure or consideration at all. 

But some are downright bad people and sex is borderline abusive and painful and traumatic and is a source of contempt and torment and aversion. 

Simply giving in and taking one for the team compounds the problem and makes it worse.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> The part I am not sure you are quite getting though is that for some people, sex with their partner is so horrible and even physically painful and traumatic, that it is not a loving and bonding act at all but one of torment and degradation.
> Some people are simply gross and fat and smelly and not take care of themselves or shower or brush the tobacco out of their brown teeth etc.
> 
> Some people experience actual physical pain during sex but their partners pin them down and stick it to them anyway.
> ...


Thats why I mentioned that if you truly hate sex and never want it, for whatever reason, you need to be honest about that upfront and probaby not marry unless you find soemone who is like you. As for them being gross and smelly, thats not often the case I suspect. If its very painful then that needs to be looked into medically. Remeber the vagina is designed to stretch and even give birth to babies so it shouldnt usually be painful. Usually its one partner who longs for sex and the other who cant or wont have it. No one is suggesting(certainly not me) that this applies to a violent abuser.


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## Electric Prune (Aug 11, 2020)

AggieL said:


> Wonderful, loving, good, handsome husband of 25 years and I have JUST entered into a no sex phase of marriage and I am so sad. I honestly could go the rest of my life without sex and only be mildly affected though at times I would definitely feel old and frustrated and very sad. He is a sexual and tactile person who is hurt and disappointed and frustrated and simply cannot take my on and off interest. He is very patient and would and has waited for me to figure it out but the pain is too great for him. He would rather shut it all down than have to deal with repeated rejection and/or a kind but somewhat unenthusiastic partner. For years and years I have had sex or some form of sexual intimacy with him without feeling aroused or with the arousal disappearing within moments of sex. I have also said “no” to him many, many times either verbally or by non verbal signals. Our sexual problems have been with us since the beginning. We have been through the ringer over the past ¼ decade sexually. Me with deep guilt and strong anxiety over the pain I am causing him and him with hurt and anger and helplessness. At my darkest times I fantasize about my death (NOT suicidal just a dark fantasy) freeing him to find a compatible sexual partner. There are LOTS of factors involved. We talk and talk about our issues We have written to each other. We have been to therapy multiple times. I always think it’s getting a little better every time we have some form of sexual intimacy but he has been feeling worse and worse; just so sad that I am not aroused or aroused enough to enjoy him. I am sad too. I will share more of my exact issues (my prompt questions below offer some clues) but this is already long and I'd like to hear from others.
> 
> Here is my question to other LD partners who love their spouses but cannot ever seem to muster enough sexual energy to enjoy sexual intimacy, even when directly participating: are you sexually averse in some way? Have you had to get over a lot of inhibitions only to have them come roaring back? Do you think you just chose the wrong partner sexually and could actually be very sexual with a different partner? Were you abused sexually in some way in your life? Are alcohol or drugs a factor in your sexual energy or do you feel alcohol or drugs affect your partner (the HD partner) in some way? Other thoughts on your LD life in an otherwise loving marriage? I am looking to hear the LD partner’s thoughts and feelings. I have read much about HD partners’ anger and sadness over the fact that their LD partners won’t talk to them about it, won’t get help, won’t change, etc… I’d like to hear more from the LD partners. I am looking for responses from people who care about their spouses as opposed to griping


Hello. Well done for opening up. Your issues sound very challenging, but also very common I think.

Some people are suggesting opening the marriage up to other partners or, more drastically, Divorce! Those options, I think, are too extreme at this stage.

My wife and I both have fluctuating sex drives. When she needs lots of attention and I don’t feel up to it (usually due to work stress) I use my hands and mouth to give her pleasure. She then feels satisfied and I feel good about paying her the attention she deserves. Could this work for you?

Lastly, your post suggests deep feelings if guilt. You shouldn’t be so hard on yourself. I think these feelings are perfectly normal and possible to work through.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

I think that if the LD partner has something or anything that they enjoy about sex, sharing that specific activity with their partner can be the bonding and physical closeness that they are looking for. It doesn't have to be PIV sex and often isn't. The sex starved partner might want to do whatever it is All The Time and it might become less fun and enjoyable for the LD partner as a result. It also might lead into the LD partner coming to enjoy other activities but that might not necessarily happen.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Hiner112 said:


> I think that if the LD partner has something or anything that they enjoy about sex, sharing that specific activity with their partner can be the bonding and physical closeness that they are looking for. It doesn't have to be PIV sex and often isn't. The sex starved partner might want to do whatever it is All The Time and it might become less fun and enjoyable for the LD partner as a result. It also might lead into the LD partner coming to enjoy other activities but that might not necessarily happen.


Agreed but sometimes it’s hard to bond over something you aren’t into and honestly would rather be doing something else. Like a couple “bonding” over 18 holes of golf where one partner is having fun playing while the other is engrossed in Pinterest when not taking a shot. Bonding is an intentional act and far more than just showing up.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> Unfortunately, the process of counseling may be one of the reasons the LD partner doesn't realize they are at risk of losing the relationship, because most elements of counseling do not seek to place blame, especially if there has not been infidelity. Invariably it will come up that frequency for "normal" sex is all over the map, giving further solace to the LD partner that he or she isn't so bad and not the problem.
> 
> Further complicating things is power. The LD partner is in control. He or she is the gatekeeper for all-things-sex and that is a huge amount of control and power. And now you're asking that person to give that up. It may be the only thing in their life where they really do feel strong and powerful.


While I do not disagree with the fact that a LOT of counselors do this... If the other person puts up with or accepts this ********, that is their fault.

This is an example of men, and women, that are weak, they do not stand up for themselves. They know something is wrong, but they will not take action, which is to divorce.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Only if the person you married is a willing participant in remaining in the sexless marriage with you. Otherwise you DO have a legal consequence-- it's called divorce.


True but what I’m saying is that the state or a third-party won’t get involved if your spouse refuses to have sex... there is no law broken. However, if you don’t pay your bills or neglect your child they will get involved. Not having sex may be an elective civil case but not a criminal case.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

aaarghdub said:


> Agreed but sometimes it’s hard to bond over something you aren’t into and honestly would rather be doing something else. Like a couple “bonding” over 18 holes of golf where one partner is having fun playing while the other is engrossed in Pinterest when not taking a shot. Bonding is an intentional act and far more than just showing up.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes its making an effort for your spouses sake. My husband used to watch historical romance film with his ex, he hated them but she wanted him to watch so he did.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

aaarghdub said:


> Agreed but sometimes it’s hard to bond over something you aren’t into and honestly would rather be doing something else. Like a couple “bonding” over 18 holes of golf where one partner is having fun playing while the other is engrossed in Pinterest when not taking a shot. Bonding is an intentional act and far more than just showing up.


I might have a different perspective than your husband but I was trying to put myself in that position and trying to come up with a positive interaction focusing more on what the LD partner wants and enjoys and less on meeting the needs of the HD partner. As a hypothetical, if I was a HD person in a relationship with a LD partner that only orgasmed by masturbation but instead of the LD partner using their own hand they guided mine, that seems like it would be almost as intimate as any other activity we could do together. It _might_ leave the HD aching for more which they would probably need to handle themselves. It might be an inspiration for the LD partner, too.

There are several caveats though. If this is the only activity the LD partner willingly participates in, the HD partner might try to initiate it more often than the LD partner wants. Depending on the reasons for the lower desire, having someone else participate might ruin the experience.

It does sidestep the "just do it" by having the LD partner dictate what to do without assuming it is whatever the HD partner wants to do.

I might be misplaced in this thread because I never _really_ had a HD/LD relationship though. Sorry if I don't have a relevant perspective.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

It’s unfortunate that there are no LD people on this forum. It would be a good learning experience for all parties involved. The OP case is a little different because of past trauma. But I think If we ever get a LD person willing to talk, we shouldn’t fed them to the wolves so to speak so we can learn from each other.


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## Electric Prune (Aug 11, 2020)

Sorry but what is LD and OP?


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Electric Prune said:


> Sorry but what is LD and OP?


Low Desire and Original Poster.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Hiner112 said:


> I might have a different perspective than your husband but I was trying to put myself in that position and trying to come up with a positive interaction focusing more on what the LD partner wants and enjoys and less on meeting the needs of the HD partner. As a hypothetical, if I was a HD person in a relationship with a LD partner that only orgasmed by masturbation but instead of the LD partner using their own hand they guided mine, that seems like it would be almost as intimate as any other activity we could do together. It _might_ leave the HD aching for more which they would probably need to handle themselves. It might be an inspiration for the LD partner, too.
> 
> There are several caveats though. If this is the only activity the LD partner willingly participates in, the HD partner might try to initiate it more often than the LD partner wants. Depending on the reasons for the lower desire, having someone else participate might ruin the experience.
> 
> ...


I agree with these sentiments. The LD person needs to acknowledge that there is a need, and they need to find an agreeable solution, rather then just shutting down and saying I don’t want to, the end. 

At the end of the day, where there is a will there is a way. People can make it work if they want to make it work. If the LD person has no will and doesn’t want to do it therefore they won’t... that’s not workable. And no words or justifications Or excuses get them off the hook in my opinion. And that’s why you judge people on their actions, not their words. What is she doing to make it work?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> It’s unfortunate that there are no LD people on this forum. It would be a good learning experience for all parties involved. The OP case is a little different because of past trauma. But I think If we ever get a LD person willing to talk, we shouldn’t fed them to the wolves so to speak so we can learn from each other.


FYI, past trauma, seems many time to be a part of low drive, no drive...


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> FYI, past trauma, seems many time to be a part of low drive, no drive...


I actually agree with you. True LD partners. Because there are lots of people who just don’t want to have sex with their spouses but they really aren’t LD.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> I actually agree with you. True LD partners. Because there are lots of people who just don’t want to have sex with their spouses but they really aren’t LD.


Problem is that everyone wants to treat the LD partner like a case of rape. It is not the same level of issue.

If you are truly low drive you should not have gotten married, 

If you don't want to have sex with your partner, divorce them


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Problem is that everyone wants to treat the LD partner like a case of rape. It is not the same level of issue.
> 
> If you are truly low drive you should not have gotten married,
> 
> If you don't want to have sex with your partner, divorce them


Generally I agree with you. I do think it’s more complicated sometimes, Resentment, hormones, medical issues. 

There are a lot of people who can overlook a good sex drive and still remain married, this forum is full of them. 

People talk a big game on here, but look at their actions, most of us put up with bad behavior or lack of sex or whatever. Clearly we are saying with our actions that these things aren’t really that important.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Girl_power said:


> Generally I agree with you. I do think it’s more complicated sometimes, Resentment, hormones, medical issues.
> 
> There are a lot of people who can overlook a good sex drive and still remain married, this forum is full of them.
> 
> People talk a big game on here, but look at their actions, most of us put up with bad behavior or lack of sex or whatever. *Clearly we are saying with our actions that these things aren’t really that important.*


I may not understand exactly what you are trying to communicate with that statement, or even the gist. “That important” is an ambiguous term here.

However, I’ll say I think it is easy to oversimplify what drives the choices people make, and the pain folks settle for. Staying in a bad marriage does not necessarily mean anything about the importance of any one factor, or the relative importance of the factors imagined by outsiders looking in. 

The person in the bad marriage has imperfect information, and processes it imperfectly.

There often is more than meets the eye going on inside one apparently “stuck” in a bad situation. On top of that, most if not all humans don’t always act based on objectively weighing how bad one thing is versus the others.

IMHO, fear and self-doubt and misinformed self-concept often keeps folks stuck in very bad situations. Situations that really might be so bad, staying in them is a life sacrificing mistake. The biggest mistake that person ever makes.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> Generally I agree with you. I do think it’s more complicated sometimes, Resentment, hormones, medical issues.
> 
> There are a lot of people who can overlook a good sex drive and still remain married, this forum is full of them.
> 
> People talk a big game on here, but look at their actions, most of us put up with bad behavior or lack of sex or whatever. Clearly we are saying with our actions that these things aren’t really that important.


I agree with you a lot,,, But let me say this. I don't think anyone has said anything about health conditions. 

While the definition of what really is a health condition is, I don't think anyone says divorce no matter what in that case. 

I guess some people do talk a big game, but lots of them move on, While sex has never been an issues in my relationships, I know what I would and would not deal with. 

As much as I love some one, no sex mean no marriage. Resentment, lets work on it. Hormones, go to a doc. 

Just don't want to have sex or your FOO issues make it impossible, then see you later. 

I don't even know why people stay in these types of relationships in the first place. 

I don't think they should, because you only get one life, why would you waste it being unhappy...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> I actually agree with you. True LD partners. Because there are lots of people who just don’t want to have sex with their spouses but they really aren’t LD.



Under those circumstances there isn't a happy M. Too incongruous. 

Let the SO you don't want to have sex with go, if they keep trying and you keep saying no.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> As much as I love some one, no sex mean no marriage. Resentment, lets work on it. Hormones, go to a doc.
> 
> Just don't want to have sex or your FOO issues make it impossible, then see you later.
> 
> I don't even know why people stay in these types of relationships in the first place.


^THIS

I agree, intentional pursuit (i.e. dating), emotionally-connected sex, and monogamy are the differences between being married and FWB/coparents. 

Friends (or FWB) feel no interest/obligation to...

flirt, seduce, be playful
have emotionally-connected sex (stick around after sex)
talk about improving sex (limit to “just getting off”)
dress up
present something worth desiring
date
grow emotionally
invest in you emotionally
be accountable
improve the relationship

In my marriage, WRT these two things stated by @BluesPower it’s been that resentment is the HL’s problem to get over and problematic hormones are just part of getting old. The former is more like I keep slapping you and it’s your problem your face keeps hurting. WRT the latter, it’s more of a convenient off-ramp to avoid emotional intimacy.

Problem is sometimes you don’t see the issue either because your focused on something else or they obfuscate/intentionally suppress the issue from the jump. Eventually, the energy to maintain the facade ends.

What it comes down to is one partner ultimately just wants safety and comfort above all and a functional (perhaps superficial/low intimacy) marriage. They LOATHED being in the dating pool and they did what they had to do to get out. Marriage means not having to do any of the stuff i listed above.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

aaarghdub said:


> In my marriage, WRT these two things stated by @BluesPower it’s been that resentment is the HL’s problem to get over and problematic hormones are just part of getting old. The former is more like I keep slapping you and it’s your problem your face keeps hurting. WRT the latter, it’s more of a convenient off-ramp to avoid emotional intimacy.
> 
> Problem is sometimes you don’t see the issue either because your focused on something else or they obfuscate/intentionally suppress the issue from the jump. Eventually, the energy to maintain the facade ends.
> 
> What it comes down to is one partner ultimately just wants safety and comfort above all and a functional (perhaps superficial/low intimacy) marriage. They LOATHED being in the dating pool and they did what they had to do to get out. Marriage means not having to do any of the stuff i listed above.


The problem is that weak men and women STAY in these relationships. THAT IS THE PROBLEM... 

The problem is people don't know what healthy romantic relationships look like. 

That is the problem. Fear and weakness.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> It’s unfortunate that there are no LD people on this forum. It would be a good learning experience for all parties involved. The OP case is a little different because of past trauma. But I think If we ever get a LD person willing to talk, we shouldn’t fed them to the wolves so to speak so we can learn from each other.


Agreed on approaching from an understanding POV.

I’m sure the LL’s are on video game forums (exchanging pro gamer tips) or Pinterest (looking at lifestyle hacks and upgrades). 


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## AggieL (Aug 8, 2020)

BluesPower said:


> FYI, past trauma, seems many time to be a part of low drive, no drive...


I almost did not mention my past sexual trauma because I did not want others who struggle with LD but who have NOT been traumatized be put off I wanted to encourage others with no trauma to speak honestly about their issues; people who love and respect their partners. I know they exist but I did not realize the salient points that have been made that LD partners rarely post on these types of message boards. I have always wondered how strong of a role my trauma plays in my relationship versus the many other issues that are also present. I suspect, regardless of past sexual trauma, I would have had issues. My upbringing was very good in so many ways but sex was not talked about much. My Catholic upbringing was decidedly unhelpful. What I feel I need SOOOOO much is a healthy, sex positive attitude so that when the flutter of arousal starts within me, I can open up and explore without ugliness instead of freezing up or shutting down.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

People seem to want to put a lot of pressure on LDs to 'fix' their problem ie therapy for CSA, MC, go to doctors for medical/hormonal issues, put out even though they don't want to etc etc. 

The problem with that is LDs don't feel LD and don't feel like they need anything to be fixed. They feel perfectly happy and normal. The only time LDs even think about is when their HD partner starts pitching a fit and getting all angry and threatening to leave etc. 

To an LD, an HD is the one with the problem and in a way it is. The LD is perfectly happy to carry on normal, daily life sans sex and if their partner didn't keep bugging them about sex all the time and wasn't making snide little comments and wasn't getting all butthurt and moping around the house all pouty, the LD would be as happy as a hog in slop. 

The only time an LD has nuts and bolts motive to change is when faced with losing something that is important to them. It's when they realize that their partner is preparing to leave and they are going to lose their house and time with their children and half their savings and retirement accounts that they realize it is a real problem and not just their partner whining and being pouty because they didn't get what they want. 

It's when they find out their partner is banging her trainer at the gym or diddling his secretary at work or paying the car payments of some 21 year old sugar baby that they get the jolt of reality that sex is important in a marriage.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

And another reason many LDs don't feel LD and don't think LD is a problem is because they aren't actually LD at all. 

Their libido and sex drive and interest in sex is just fine.....they just don't want to have sex with the person they are with. 
How many times do we hear these guys whining and moaning about their "asexual" wives that haven't touched them in a year only to find out she's screwing the trainer at the gym every which way but sunday? 

It's hard for someone to justify going to doctors and getting stuck with needles and having blood drawn and having someone going up their kootchie with a speculum and going to a counselor's office to listen to their partner whine that they aren't living the porn life when the reality is she/he has a perfectly intact sex drive and they are having great, exciting, breathless, passionate sex - just with someone else. 

And even in many cases where there is no infidelity, the LD feels they have a perfectly normal sex drive and interest in sex, they have simply lost their attraction and desire for their current partner. They would be perfectly fine if their partner would just shut up about it and keep their hands to themselves. 

We weren't designed to be hot and heavy for only one person for 50+ years. Life time monogamy with only one person is a choice and a sacrifice, it is not something that just falls into place naturally. It may be sad and frustrating but it is normal and even somewhat natural for people to lose that burning desire for their partner over time. Many times people don't even realize they are doing it until it starts becoming an issue for the higher D partner. 

And even then, many don't feel motivated to do anything about it until they are faced with the real possibility of losing something over it. 

People don't put in serious effort or heavy lifting into something they don't want to do in the first place.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

AggieL said:


> I almost did not mention my past sexual trauma because I did not want others who struggle with LD but who have NOT been traumatized be put off I wanted to encourage others with no trauma to speak honestly about their issues; people who love and respect their partners. I know they exist but I did not realize the salient points that have been made that LD partners rarely post on these types of message boards. I have always wondered how strong of a role my trauma plays in my relationship versus the many other issues that are also present. I suspect, regardless of past sexual trauma, I would have had issues. My upbringing was very good in so many ways but sex was not talked about much. My Catholic upbringing was decidedly unhelpful. What I feel I need SOOOOO much is a healthy, sex positive attitude so that when the flutter of arousal starts within me, I can open up and explore without ugliness instead of freezing up or shutting down.


I want you to know that I think you are a nice person by what you write here. And I am sorry that had to endure any sexual trauma ever in your life. I just think that is so horrible. I am so sorry that you have had to deal with all of this.

But I want to challenge you about the love for your husband. I realize that you "think" you love him. And I am you "love him like a brother", "Like a family member'. 

However, either because of your trauma or your upbringing, I don't think you are actually able to love someone in a romantic way. Most people want to be loved by their partner in a romantic, and a with romantic goes sexual desire, among other things.

Your poor husband wants you to love him that way. I suspect he has wanted it the entire marriage. 

I am really think that you should tell your husband that you want him to divorce you. Or even file for divorce yourself. 

He will be sad, but in the end he can find a woman that loves him romantically and hopefully he will find happiness. 

I know this is hard, but if you really love someone often you have to let them go so they can be happy...


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

The LD perhaps states how they will address the issue, make a token effort (to avoid a fight) or pushes back. Either way, they have already rejected the premise that there is an issue to begin with so nothing changes.

That premise, summarily rejected at the get-go, takes on life again once the divorce process begins. They soon realize that being dumped for having no sex drive or being asexual is something that people will totally discriminate against you for in the dating pool. The avoidant ones are fine being single the rest of their lives. For the rest, I think subsequently finding another LL could be a tall order. It’s not like people put “looking for a platonic marriage” in their OLD profile.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> The problem is that weak men and women STAY in these relationships. THAT IS THE PROBLEM...
> 
> The problem is people don't know what healthy romantic relationships look like.
> 
> That is the problem. Fear and weakness.


Not knowing what healthy relationships look like is neither fear nor weakness.

I don’t think “weakness” is a helpful term for anyone here. You can build people up, support their taking of healthy action, without using what many would receive as a one more put down and clouding their view of more concrete behaviors they could change.

There are choices I’ve made in my life, very consequential choices, that were not made from a healthy self-actualizing mindset. Choices driven by fear, ignorance, self-doubt, inexperience, depression, laziness, etc. It’s for my benefit to own those, and the factors behind them.

I’ve grown much during the 27 years with my wife. I chose to stay, at different times, for different reasons. But, more recently, I like to think my choice to stay has been driven more by value and legitimate concerns as opposed to irrational fear or even ignorance. And, I don’t think staying through some of this has been the easy way out; it’s taken quite a bit of strength at times, to achieve ends that I value most of all

No one here knows the context in which a particular person takes or doesn’t take a particular action. No one here knows conscious and unconscious trade offs made or not made.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

PieceOfSky said:


> Not knowing what healthy relationships look like is neither fear nor weakness.
> 
> I don’t think “weakness” is a helpful term for anyone here. You can build people up, support their taking of healthy action, without using what many would receive as a one more put down and clouding their view of more concrete behaviors they could change.
> 
> ...


You can really think what you want. 

Now, not knowing what healthy is... is not the same as fear and weakness. I agree with that. 

I was trying to say learn what the looks like for her and her husband. 

However, please, I have lived this stuff. I have made mistakes and I stand by what I wrote. 

All the things you mentioned are part of fear and weakness. I don't know what your particular issues were in your marriage, but if you were not happy and you stayed that is your deal. If you want to martyr or you think you did the right thing well good for you

Staying in an unhappy marriage, in my opinion is a bad thing. Staying is a sexless marriage is unimaginable to me and a host of other people. 

I also stand by the following: If she really loved her husband, she would get him to divorce her and move on. That would be the loving thing to do. 

I understand that for whatever reason she has some issues with sex but that is not the fault of her husband. 

No one gets a gold star because they stayed in a marriage that was unfulfilling. Sorry, neither will you. 

What actually takes strength is to have the balls to say, "I love you, but this is not working. We have tried and I am leaving"!!!

What would actually take strength and be a loving act for OP is for her to say, "I love you, but I cannot fix my issues, and I want to get a divorce. It is not fair to let you die on the vine the way that I have been doing. It is time for you to move on".

That would show both love and strength...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> Generally I agree with you. I do think it’s more complicated sometimes, Resentment, hormones, medical issues.


As you said sometimes, this doesn't necessarily apply to you directly, so don't get offended.

People forget what "normal" means.

In human terms, normal is almost always a distribution. Normal usually means those within 1 standard deviation of the mean - which encompasses about 2/3 of everyone. 

Normal also has distribution tails. 3 standard deviations from the mean has (roughly speaking) 1 person WAY below the mean and 1 person WAY above for every 100 persons. We don't need to pathologize low desire, which seems to always be the default position here. 1% of the US population will want sex at a rate lower than 99% of the rest of the country and still be part of the grand distribution of sexual desire. That's over 3 million Americans who we probably would call very low desire. 

So maybe it's hormones, resentment, or medical issues, or maybe it Just Is. 

The first question I always get when discussing my wife's sexual nature in detail is "was she abused?". The answer is no. She just is.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

And with my ex-husband, it was 'is he gay?'/'he must be gay.'



Cletus said:


> The first question I always get when discussing my wife's sexual nature in detail is "was she abused?". The answer is no. She just is.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

@cleatus you make a good point! It’s easy to view normal as what I, and my friends and family do. 

It’s like when people drive slower than you, they need speed up, and when people drive faster than you they are wild animals.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> @cleatus you make a good point! It’s easy to view normal as what I, and my friends and family do.
> 
> It’s like when people drive slower than you, they need speed up, and when people drive faster than you they are wild animals.


Well, we may not know what "Normal is" through some scientific study or find one that we believe. 

But we can say that a range would be normal. I don't think it is that subjective. 

Maybe one to three times a week? That has got to be some kind of normal right? 

I mean I know I am a HD person, so I go more than that, but evidently I am abnormal.

And surely once a month has got the be getting to abnormal, one book says that sex less than 10 times a year is a sexless marriage. 

It would not take a whole year for me to figure out that was not normal? 

Am I off base here?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> It would not take a whole year for me to figure out that was not normal?
> 
> Am I off base here?


Nope. By definition, if it ain't normal, it's abnormal. Depends on how you define normal, but it's common in science to call somewhere between 1 and 2 standard deviations normal.

Abnormal doesn't mean pathological, that's all. Low range, high range - they don't require fixing, unless something really is wrong. We don't try to fix an otherwise normal guy born 5'2". We just pity him .


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> You can really think what you want.


Of course.



BluesPower said:


> All the things you mentioned are part of fear and weakness. I don't know what your particular issues were in your marriage, but if you were not happy and you stayed that is your deal. If you want to martyr or you think you did the right thing well good for you
> 
> .
> .
> ...


Of course, staying for my reasons is “my deal”. Not looking for a gold star, or to gain martyr status, I’m pretty sure.

What I don’t like getting, and especially dislike seeing others getting, is judgement from afar of being a “weak person” because of staying in unhappy circumstances.

The only thing you have lived is your own circumstances, with your own insights and knowledge, and with your own values. That gives you something to offer people struggling through suboptimal lives. It does not qualify you to judge people as “weak” in contexts you know nothing about. There are more effective ways to be helpful.


BluesPower said:


> What actually takes strength is to have the balls to say, "I love you, but this is not working. We have tried and I am leaving"!!!


That does take strength, and significant other things.

But it also takes strength to stay, if one values that particular mix of perceived trade offs more, for that particular swath of time. Or thinks that they do.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

It does, and I admire you and @bobert for staying.

I don't know if the low desire person's gender makes a difference in terms of respect? But the passivity sets me on edge. And by passivity, I mean plugging along like the status quo is just fine. 

I don't want to sound too sexist, but since women are perceived as/expected to be more submissive, is it easier for men to stay in this type of situation? It's a genuine question - I have no clue.

But for me, by the end of our marriage, I clearly saw my ex-husband as a coward, and divorce was such a huge relief.



PieceOfSky said:


> But it also takes strength to stay,


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

AggieL said:


> I almost did not mention my past sexual trauma because I did not want others who struggle with LD but who have NOT been traumatized be put off I wanted to encourage others with no trauma to speak honestly about their issues; people who love and respect their partners. I know they exist but I did not realize the salient points that have been made that LD partners rarely post on these types of message boards. I have always wondered how strong of a role my trauma plays in my relationship versus the many other issues that are also present. I suspect, regardless of past sexual trauma, I would have had issues. My upbringing was very good in so many ways but sex was not talked about much. My Catholic upbringing was decidedly unhelpful. What I feel I need SOOOOO much is a healthy, sex positive attitude so that when the flutter of arousal starts within me, I can open up and explore without ugliness instead of freezing up or shutting down.


I think that those who were sexually abused can be affected in different ways. Some are totally put off sex, some become very sexually active but not usually in a healthy way, and others whose desires are all messed up and they are not even sure who they are and aren't attracted to.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

PieceOfSky said:


> Of course.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you, to say that those in marriages that aren't happy or where there is little sex are weak for staying just isnt true. Some believe in keeping promises made and being there 24/7 for their children.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

This is kind of slipping away from the original topic and can be removed if it is too far afield. 

I think there can be different ways to interpret and different motivations for staying in a suboptimal relationship.

What is the specific problem with the current relationship? (We've been talking about desire mismatch but that is obviously not the only possibility)

What do you lose by leaving the relationship? (Time with kids, financial resources, companionship, etc).

Is being single better? (For desire mismatches probably not since any sex is better than no sex)

How likely are you going to get into another relationship? Is the next relationship going to be better or have the same kinds of problems (or the same severity of problems)? (This is the big unknown)

Are you staying because you're scared of being alone or are you staying because you decided that the costs outweigh the benefits? My wife thought I was weak because I had decided to put up with some unpleasant behavior. After she told me she was leaving I told her that I just felt tired for having wasted so much time and effort. She expected emotional distress and got something more akin to relief. 

I had assessed my chances of forming another relationship as low and the chances of there being significant (different) issues if I did as being high. I knew the other consequences mentioned above would be significant as well and I chose the suboptimal relationship over divorce until I was released from it. 



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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

AggieL said:


> I almost did not mention my past sexual trauma because I did not want others who struggle with LD but who have NOT been traumatized be put off I wanted to encourage others with no trauma to speak honestly about their issues; people who love and respect their partners. I know they exist but I did not realize the salient points that have been made that LD partners rarely post on these types of message boards. I have always wondered how strong of a role my trauma plays in my relationship versus the many other issues that are also present. I suspect, regardless of past sexual trauma, I would have had issues. My upbringing was very good in so many ways but sex was not talked about much. My Catholic upbringing was decidedly unhelpful. What I feel I need SOOOOO much is a healthy, sex positive attitude so that when the flutter of arousal starts within me, I can open up and explore without ugliness instead of freezing up or shutting down.


You can let me know if you think what my wife went through qualifies as trauma or something else. She actually lived two different lives before she met me, and continued after. She had her strongly religious beliefs and friends in church and told me she was "saving herself for marriage." The reality was very much otherwise; she went through a brief period of extreme angst, rationalizing the decision to give herself to a guy "she truly loved" (after a few week), and saw sex as an extremely emotional and connectedness & love-based experience. Not physical, because she was looking for that but it never happened. She broke up with the guy after a couple months (when she realized he was in it for sex, while she was in it for something more), then they kept hooking up from time to time, partly because she wanted to believe that what she had been doing was ok (and the best way to convince yourself of that, sometimes, is to keep doing it). And then the guy blew it; he told her something along the lines of "I don't know how women can do it; guys are so exhausted after sex, but the girls have no issues." And like oh my, he was having sex with other women???!!! And she walked.

Then three days later she meets up with a new guy who, from the start, was all about sex. And it takes her three weeks again to talk herself into believing it's true love, they have sex, it wasn't a great experience, and he ghosts her for three days. BUT- she repeats the previous pattern of continuing to see him, hooking up, because she doesn't want to admit that it's not really love, that the guy is into her for more than just sex. All of this stuff was completely hidden from her friends, her family, everyone but the guys she went out with.

This stuff shouldn't have destroyed her, but it did, because she had nobody to talk with about it, no way to process it, so she hid it and it just totally destroyed her view of sex as something that could ever be pleasurable (this was a punishment for her sin) and that an emotional & connected & love attachment to sex had betrayed her so that ship sailed too.

Does any of this ring a bell for you? Anything you recognize? There's no real specific trauma in the normal sense, yet overall similar effect.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

aaarghdub said:


> ^THIS
> 
> I agree, intentional pursuit (i.e. dating), emotionally-connected sex, and monogamy are the differences between being married and FWB/coparents.
> 
> ...


I'm going to be contrary.

Why are you speaking for all FWBs? There sure as heck are FWBs who flirt, seduce, are playful with, dress up for, try to improve upon, and have totally hot steamy fulfilling sex with each other.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

PieceOfSky said:


> Of course.
> 
> Of course, staying for my reasons is “my deal”. Not looking for a gold star, or to gain martyr status, I’m pretty sure.
> 
> ...


Listen, no disrespect but is disagree... 

And unlike Some others I do not think you and bobert or anyone else is STRONG for staying.

I just don't, I think it is weak, and for a lot of other reasons for me, I think it is wrong and frankly, overall I think it is bad for the kids. 

I have lived this, and I wasted YEARs of my life, and I am super lucky that my kids turned out well. My kids have every right to severely damaged with what I allowed them to do through because I thought I was doing the right. 

I think some of the damage in them will come out later but I hope I am wrong. 

I was wrong for staying, I was not strong at the time, it was bad for me, and I hope to God that they stay as happy and well adjusted as they are. 

You and whoever can do what ever you want, that is your choice and right. 

But it is also, my right to feel differently and advise people from my point of view. 

You and I will just have to disagree...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

AggieL said:


> *My Catholic upbringing was decidedly unhelpful.* What I feel I need SOOOOO much is a healthy, sex positive attitude so that when the flutter of arousal starts within me, I can open up and explore without ugliness instead of freezing up or shutting down.


I am often one to jump on the idea that the Catholic religion shames sexuality. Specifically the church's view on masturbation as being something wrong or sinful (even though there seems to be no mention or guidance on the topic of masturbation in the bible). Some have a philosophy that one must know how to love themselves (through self exploration) in order to really understand how to share themselves with a spouse in marriage. The other philosophy would be that only a spouse should be the one allowed to discover their partner's sexuality. 

So if you think about embracing a sex positive attitude and combine that with everything that is known today about sexuality, one could easily argue that waiting until after marriage to really discover one's sexuality can be problematic. One of my favorite people to read about in history is the first African American Female (Joycelyn Elders) that that serves U.S. Surgeon General. She had a very positive attitude toward masturbation. She suggested that better access to healthcare combined with informing the public about healthy sexual behaviors would likely help prevent teenage abortions. However when she was asked if teaching people to masturbation could help prevent the spread of AIDS, she replied that it should be studied. She was then promptly relieved of her duty by then president Bill Clinton. The public feared that public school programs that taught abstinence only (much like the Catholic Church) may be expanded to include teaching and discussing the health benefits of masturbation to help prevent AIDS and abortion. We can all agree that the idea of a public school gym teacher advocating for masturbation for better health during sex education is problematic. What is funny is Elder's response to the public about this fear was that no one has to teach someone else how to love themself by masturbating. She said that it is something that everyone can figure out all on their own, but that the public should stop shaming the topic. Elder's indicated that if someone is going to have sex for the very first time that it needs to be with someone that truly loves them. "Who will ever love you more than yourself," she said as a way to have a positive stance on the topic of letting people know that it is OK to love yourself. 

So it is not just the Catholic church that shames sexuality. It is society in general. There are many positive things that the Catholic church teaches. You may find it helpful to focus on those things and allow it to bring positive things into your life. Stop looking for things to blame and start looking for ways to forgive. Learn how to be positive about loving yourself and don't be ashamed to share that with your spouse. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Listen, no disrespect but is disagree...
> 
> And unlike Some others I do not think you and bobert or anyone else is STRONG for staying.
> 
> ...


Staying or leaving... BOTH choices can require strength, BOTH choices can involve weakness/fear, and you can have both strength and weakness at the same time. Whether or not it even is strength or weakness can depend entirely on the circumstances.

It takes strength to stay and work on the issues. There is NOTHING weak about confronting the issues within your spouse, yourself, and your marriage and tackling them head-on. Rug sweeping or running away as soon as things get tough, that is weak.

We all know that it takes both spouses to improve the marriage. If the other spouse refuses to do their side of the work then there is a choice to be made... stay and accept things as they are, or leave.

You think it is weak to stay when there is no hope of things improving. Perhaps, but for the person who is staying, they may not see it that way. They may be using all the strength they can find to stick to their commitment, values, vows, or whatever else. Calling that person weak is not going to help them. It is insulting to them.

There are other people who are staying not because they are standing by their values, but because of fear. You may say those people are the same... I think it can be a mix of both. Calling that person weak is not going to help them. Chances are they already see themselves as weak or a fool. Why kick a man when he's down?

The way things look to YOU, an outsider, may be very different from reality.

To YOU it looks weak that I've stayed with the lying, serial cheating, mentally ill spouse with a billion and one sex issues. That's all you see. You don't see the grueling months, approaching two years, of work we have done. You don't see all of the improvements. You don't see the spouse who is doing everything possible, unlike most. When we have good moments, you don't know how sweet the victory tastes because of how hard it was to achieve. Yeah, we fall far off the path but we get back on it and keep moving forward. You don't see that for ME leaving _could _actually be the weak choice. Why? Because if I leave that means I don't have to confront and deal with my own inner struggles that are equally as destructive to our marriage. It would be SO much easier for me to leave than to stay and confront those issues within myself. So whether leaving is weak or strong, that depends.

I will be the first to admit that my situation is NOT healthy for my kids. I absolutely hate what they are going through. I try to shelter them from it, but I know it does little good. Last night I was up talking with my son until 2AM because he wanted to know why mom and dad rarely sleep in the same bed anymore, if our fighting caused mom to go off the deep end again, why mom is in a psych ward yet again, if I sent her there to get rid of her, if she will die, if our family will ever be normal... and on and on. They pick up on the emotions and tension, the behaviors. I know. It's something that I hate and that I think about every day.

If there is no light at the end of the tunnel, then yes, the couple should go their separate ways. If the couple sees a way to get to that light and both want to get there, then it's a grey area. How much is too much? How long is too long? Will the kids be better off? No one knows.

You have lived YOUR experience(s). Not mine, not PieceOfSky's. Not Tom, ****, or Harry's. YOURS. NO ONE knows what they would do in a situation until it's happening to them, and NO ONE knows what they would do if they were someone else. They do not have the same spouse, brain, personality, upbringing, values, etc. Since you will never have the exact same circumstances as anyone else, you will never know what you would do if you were them.


Quite frankly, LD/HD is the least of my issues or concern. My drive is so low at this point (and my resentment is so high) that I've been turning her down for years. Here's my problem with the idea of "just do it"... It's not enough unless you're just looking for a warm, cozy place to stick your ****.

My wife will "just do it". She will initiate sex every single day, and it's not because she's HD. She ACTS like someone who has a HD, but in reality, I don't think she has any drive at all. Regardless, she regrets our sexless years and decided to never again turn me down. She would have (and wants) sex every day. Some people would tell me I should be happy with that... that I have a willing spouse who will "just do it". That isn't enough for me. I need her to be into it, to be enjoying it, to orgasm, to make her feel good and satisfied. Not to be "just doing it" and crying her way through it or sitting in the bathroom crying afterward.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

bobert said:


> Quite frankly, LD/HD is the least of my issues or concern. My drive is so low at this point (and my resentment is so high) that I've been turning her down for years. Here's my problem with the idea of "just do it"... It's not enough unless you're just looking for a warm, cozy place to stick your ****.
> 
> My wife will "just do it". She will initiate sex every single day, and it's not because she's HD. She ACTS like someone who has a HD, but in reality, I don't think she has any drive at all. Regardless, she regrets our sexless years and decided to never again turn me down. She would have (and wants) sex every day. Some people would tell me I should be happy with that... that I have a willing spouse who will "just do it". That isn't enough for me. I need her to be into it, to be enjoying it, to orgasm, to make her feel good and satisfied. Not to be "just doing it" and crying her way through it or sitting in the bathroom crying afterward.


You might consider giving your wife a bit more leeway for an acceptable sexual experience. She doesn't have to orgasm, she doesn't have to derive her own physical pleasure for it to be a wonderful experience for her, _if_ she is enjoying sex with you because it has meaning... for you... and she can offer herself to give you pleasure, to help you relieve stress, for whatever reason it might be important to you. If she's doing it out of love for you because it's meaningful to you, that's not such a bad thing.

If that was behind her desire to have sex with you, and you reject it, I could see her sadness, her crying in the bathroom, a sense of hopelessness because she is trying.

If that's the case. You should explore this and make sure you understand where she's coming from. Sex can be about so much more than an orgasm or physical pleasure. There can be a connectedness, an emotional tie, an expression of love.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

aaarghdub said:


> Well this is what happens when you slowly strangle the golden goose. I think it shows the marriage was more about her safety and comfort than anything else. Also funny how the new husband isn’t a “special person”, I’m sure he’d love to know that.


I didn't explain it completely. She is now twice-divorced. I stuck it out for a good number of years due to us having kids; her second marriage didn't even last four years. Yes, it absolutely was a case of wanting comfort; when the men were not able to provide that comfort (I got laid off and husband #2 got hurt and couldn't work) she started getting nasty. I'll accept someone going into their first marriage can be naive and not really get what responsibilities a marriage entails, but not twice.

Karma is a real thing though, LOL!! H#2 moved out her birthday weekend (total f-you move and I was shaking my head). And she borrowed money against her home when they moved in together; unsurprisingly he's not interested in helping her repay that debt.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> I am going to take this a couple steps further.
> 
> Not only would I not want to be in a relationship with someone who had no romantic/sexual attraction or desire for me-
> 
> ...


This is exactly how I feel about it as well. If you don't like me enough to have sex with me, then you probably don't like me enough for us to be together, and you don't have any business asking me to do anything for you.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

AggieL said:


> I almost did not mention my past sexual trauma because I did not want others who struggle with LD but who have NOT been traumatized be put off I wanted to encourage others with no trauma to speak honestly about their issues; people who love and respect their partners. I know they exist but I did not realize the salient points that have been made that LD partners rarely post on these types of message boards. I have always wondered how strong of a role my trauma plays in my relationship versus the many other issues that are also present. I suspect, regardless of past sexual trauma, I would have had issues. My upbringing was very good in so many ways but sex was not talked about much. My Catholic upbringing was decidedly unhelpful. What I feel I need SOOOOO much is a healthy, sex positive attitude so that when the flutter of arousal starts within me, I can open up and explore without ugliness instead of freezing up or shutting down.


Aggie, I take objection to you blaming your Catholic upbringing. In fact, the church recognizes that the second purpose of marriage is as a remedy for concupiscense. What this means to me is that we are morally obligated to satisfy our spouses need for intimacy and sexual satisfaction. In fact, not doing so over the course of twenty five years seems like a pretty serious sin in my opinion (less sinful if you were truly ignorant of this teaching).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Under those circumstances there isn't a happy M. Too incongruous.
> 
> Let the SO you don't want to have sex with go, if they keep trying and you keep saying no.


Ideally, yes the LD partner would indeed come up and say "I love you but I can't manage sex and it's best that we part ways". But from a practical perspective that will rarely happen, if ever.

Why? Because the LD person is staying for some reason; he or she is getting SOMETHING out of the arrangement or would be gone already. Seriously, why would you stay with someone who isn't happy and lets you know about it? Maybe you depend on this person financially, don't want to be a single parent, you feel you'll lose social status / friends? Those are all powerful motivators to stick around.

It's simply not realistic to expect someone to bail out on what looks like a an advantageous situation. It's up to the partner for whom the situation does not work to drive change. I have a perfect example from a couple of years ago; my GF at the time was just not putting in the effort; things were going good and then she starting finding reasons to be disconnected. After about a month I started mentioning it, and soon thereafter I told her flat out that she needed to reverse course before I stopped caring. Once I took away her ability pretend the truth came out and we broke it off.

But if I hadn't done that, how many more months or years of me paying the bills and being a good father figure to her kids (far better than their natural father) would she have let slide by?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> And even in many cases where there is no infidelity, the LD feels they have a perfectly normal sex drive and interest in sex, they have simply lost their attraction and desire for their current partner. They would be perfectly fine if their partner would just shut up about it and keep their hands to themselves.


I agree this happens, and this is part of why LD partners get dumped on.

I know how it goes. Sometimes you just aren't into the person you are with any longer. I've been the one who lost the attraction and the one who's partner lost it. It sucks but It happens, and life goes on.

But, I've never pretended to be into someone to get some benefit off of her, nor have I asked for any special consideration from someone once those feelings are gone from my end. That's just part of being a good, upstanding person. We got into a relationship because we simultaneously brought behaviors to the relationship that led to mutual desire. If I no longer will do that which brought us together, I have no business asking you to keep doing your part

But many of these LD (or whatever label you desire) partners want to forego the sex but keep the things they do want flowing as always. If you do that, that behavior speaks poorly for the quality of person you are.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> It is true that not all LD have trauma or CSA in their past. - but this OP DOES.
> 
> It is probably also true that some people that sex when they don’t really want to may not develop an aversion- but this OP HAS.
> 
> ...


First of all, regarding the last paragraph you wrote... If I tell a lady that, it's not that I'm trying to compel sex. It is precisely the opposite - I've given up hope you're going to bother making headway on the issues. I'm done and I'm out.

Also, I acknowledge your decision to not make the effort needed to provide intimacy regularly. You decided your effort was better spent elsewhere and that's your decision to make. But by turning your back on the relationship you have made me your adversary. If it's okay for you to prioritize yourself and leave me hanging, It's okay for me to do the same.

Look, CSA is terrible - that is without question. But being a victim of CSA, never really dealing with it, and then going into a marriage and making your spouse your co-victim simply is not acceptable. The person going into a relationship with these unresolved issues is knowingly creating a bad situation. Expecting to fix it - either by doing the hard work to be a good partner or by ending the relationship - without pain is unrealistic.

I also get that some CSA victims may get into a relationship to seek safety and escape a difficult home life. My opinion remains the same. Imposing your problems on others by getting into a relationship without doing the necessary healing is ALWAYS the worst decision and never justifiable.

.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

DTO said:


> This is exactly how I feel about it as well. If you don't like me enough to have sex with me, then you probably don't like me enough for us to be together, and you don't have any business asking me to do anything for you.


I think it is more simple than that. 

If you don't want to have sex, then we are not together. See how simple that is...


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

AggieL said:


> Appetite is a great analogy. There are multiple sources of my lack of sexual appetite. I know quite a few but am probably not recognizing or facing all of them... past trauma, mild hormonal mood disorder (my self diagnosis but I am looking into it more seriously), intrusive thoughts (if I a read about a tragedy or am concerned about one of my children I am overcome with feelings for some time and have no surefire way of putting it out of my mind), alcohol use (currently under control/not drinking at all these days and all the better for it) and mostly a husband whose heart and mind and creative spirit and body all seem to thrive off of sexual energy which always, always overwhelms me .


Wife was CSA survivor, intrusive thoughts too. Hormonal is fairly easy fix. Wife has complete hysterectomy at 42 ~10 yrs ago. She takes HRT treatment and is gtg. Prior to that she was a bear and was diagnosed as bi-polar. Oncologist called BS. Said many women are diagnosed as bi-polar and put on meds when it is nothing more than hormones being whacked. When she got on HRT it felt like i got my 27yr old bride back that i fell in love with 24 yrs ago.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> People seem to want to put a lot of pressure on LDs to 'fix' their problem ie therapy for CSA, MC, go to doctors for medical/hormonal issues, put out even though they don't want to etc etc.
> 
> The problem with that is LDs don't feel LD and don't feel like they need anything to be fixed. They feel perfectly happy and normal. The only time LDs even think about is when their HD partner starts pitching a fit and getting all angry and threatening to leave etc.
> 
> ...


Or the LD partner gets upset when the HD partner, feeling unloved, starts to shut down emotionally to protect themselves. If the physicall intimacy stops or is scarce, some of us withdraw affection and communication on a meaningful level to shield ourself from the pain. The LD partner is now hurt that HD is no longer interrested in talks, cuddling on the couch or holding hands, basic everday affection is shut down.

Not to mention keeping busy doing projects away from LD spouse so you dont have to be in their presence. Out of sight, out of mind so to speak.

Then the LD will be one complaining that wounded HD spouse is not being affectionate or loving.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Divinely Favored said:


> Or the LD partner gets upset when the HD partner, feeling unloved, starts to shut down emotionally to protect themselves. If the physicall intimacy stops or is scarce, some of us withdraw affection and communication on a meaningful level to shield ourself from the pain. The LD partner is now hurt that HD is no longer interrested in talks, cuddling on the couch or holding hands, basic everday affection is shut down.
> 
> Not to mention keeping busy doing projects away from LD spouse so you dont have to be in their presence. Out of sight, out of mind so to speak.
> 
> Then the LD will be one complaining that woulded HD spouse is not being affectionate or loving.


This is all very interesting to a lot of people. I get that. 

However if people did not allow themselves to STAY in these types of situations, then we would not even be talking about it. 

That in my view is the best situation, just don't allow it and move on...


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DTO said:


> I also get that some CSA victims may get into a relationship to seek safety and escape a difficult home life. My opinion remains the same. Imposing your problems on others by getting into a relationship without doing the necessary healing is ALWAYS the worst decision and never justifiable.


I'd say the bigger issue is getting into a relationship without disclosing the issues your partner will be facing. In many cases, someone knows they're bringing baggage with them, and intentionally not disclosing that baggage. Here on TAM it's popular to assert someone's right to privacy as a reason to now disclose a sexual history, but, and I've said this many many times, if you FEAR that disclosing that history will chase your partner away, then it's something that SHOULD be disclosed because things have a way of coming out, sooner or later.

Let your narrative be true and find someone who can live with that narrative. Be mindful of that; it's an imperative. The natural tendency will be to self-preserve in real time, and that does not always serve one well for the long term relationship.


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## Cup of Tea (Apr 15, 2020)

I am the LD partner, and have substantial reasons to detest intercourse.
--He has grown so fat that penetration is now difficult or impossible. 
--The heart can only pump blood to so much, so so not much gets hard these days
--I went through all the effort to get fixed: insurance hoops, pain, recovery after he backed out of getting a vasectomy. 
--Let's not forget all those years I was on the depo, which hurt! 
--I had intercourse as soon as the Dr cleared me after a class 4 episiotomy. It hurt like hell, but I pushed through because I wanted to please him. 
--He made me go get his Rx for ED meds. How embarassing!! 
--He expects me up at 3am for service, and gets extremely pissed when I decline
--His boobs are bigger than mine
--There is nothing fun about nearly being squashed to death. 
--His idea of romance is ordering pizza so I don't have to cook. 

I hate sex. I tried and tried for years to keep us happy in the bedroom, but good god I refuse to push aside that massive stomach for 15 seconds of fu**ing. I don't want his stupid fingers either. Even after we split, I don't want to hook up with anyone or even buy a toy. Its been horrible for so long that I just hate all of it.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Cup of Tea said:


> I am the LD partner, and have substantial reasons to detest intercourse.
> --He has grown so fat that penetration is now difficult or impossible.
> --The heart can only pump blood to so much, so so not much gets hard these days
> --I went through all the effort to get fixed: insurance hoops, pain, recovery after he backed out of getting a vasectomy.
> ...


So just curious, have you told him? And why not get divorced. 

Find someone that respects himself enough, and you for that matter, to not be a fat pig. 

Why do you live your life like this????


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## Cup of Tea (Apr 15, 2020)

BluesPower said:


> So just curious, have you told him? And why not get divorced.
> 
> Find someone that respects himself enough, and you for that matter, to not be a fat pig.
> 
> Why do you live your life like this????


He isn't stupid enough not to aware, but is horribly ignorant and will deflect when I've tried talking about any of this. 

A divorce is coming soon, but I need to get a PT job 1st. And I'll be more than fine on my own.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cup of Tea said:


> I am the LD partner, and have substantial reasons to detest intercourse.
> --He has grown so fat that penetration is now difficult or impossible.
> --The heart can only pump blood to so much, so so not much gets hard these days
> --I went through all the effort to get fixed: insurance hoops, pain, recovery after he backed out of getting a vasectomy.
> ...


That’s not a libido or desire issue. 

Those are relationship and attraction issues. 

With a fit and attractive man who is appreciative and responsive to your needs and desires and concerned with your pleasure and satisfaction, you may be a tiger in bed.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cup of Tea said:


> He isn't stupid enough not to aware,


Never underestimate a man’s stupidity when it comes to sex.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

AggieL said:


> We do talk a lot about our struggles. As the years have gone by we have become very honest with each other mostly to his pain. He is grateful though to hear truths rather than rely on what he thinks is true. He struggles to understand what in the world I get out of sex with him. He understands my issues with trauma, arousal, aversions at this point so well that he feels badly every time we get it on even if I ini-ate. It's hard for him to understand that my wanting to give to him and the rewarding feeling of closeness and connection that comes after is pretty much what it's all about for me. Even harder because after we have some form of intimacy he is ramped up with the wheels of creative desire spinning within him while I am grateful for our connection but immediately sort of shut down sexually. This is the pattern that is destroying us. Add to this, there IS a part of me that would like to be better connected to my sexual self. This part of me takes a lot of commitment and work but life moves fast and little stressors can so easily snuf out any little effort I make. This last bit about my desire to be a more sexual person is not something he believes. He believes I want to want to be a more sexual person. That is true too but so is the other.


My heart does out to you. In some ways I share a life like yours but from the other side of the bed. My wife is LD, but never was sexually abused, but was sexually inhibited through education in a girls Catholic boarding school raised mostly by nuns. She got to go home to her parents each night, but they were not very loving toward each other and so she had little role models in life for a healthy marriage.

I am finding your story quite interesting. We have been married over 49 years. We talked about my need for sex prior to marriage and she promised me that things would change after marriage, that marriage would change her. It did and didn't. She still has low desire and always will, I accept that. The good news is that through the help of a sex therapist she understands how important sex is to me and I have learned to accept the gift of her body at times she does not want sexual pleasure, but wants to pleasure me.

May I suggest "affirmations." These are positive statements you say and repeat in a relaxed state. They are a form of self-hypnosis. They are a way of communicating to your subconscious mind what you want it to think. They are a great way to break bad habits, increase self confidence, and change the way you feel about some things. They hard and sometimes don't work, but sometimes they do work.

Another suggestion may be for you and your H to explore sexual role playing with each other, but with a very limited script that is completely agreed to ahead of time. This may allow you to pretend to be someone that you are not. It may also allow you to assume a persona who could do things that you normally could not do as "you." You seem to understand how important sex is to your H and want to do things to please him. This might take some help from a counselor. 

Again, a really great sex therapist and marriage counselor helped save our marriage. We have been married 49 years are in our early 70's and having sex twice a week. 

Good luck to you. I hope that both you and your H find some form of compromise that can bring you both happiness.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

AggieL said:


> ,,,,,,,I suspect, regardless of past sexual trauma, I would have had issues. My upbringing was very good in so many ways but sex was not talked about much. My Catholic upbringing was decidedly unhelpful. What I feel I need SOOOOO much is a healthy, sex positive attitude so that when the flutter of arousal starts within me, I can open up and explore without ugliness instead of freezing up or shutting down.


Wow, my wife could have almost said those words. I do so feel for you and identify with your H.

Again, do some joint sex therapy (more) with him. Also work with a marriage counselor on discussing what the two of you want the future to look like? How will the two of you retain intimacy when you get older, when one of you perhaps gets ill or can no longer has PIV sex for medical reasons. What do you want marriage in your retirement to look like? How do you want to interact with grandchildren and children? 

Good luck.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> My heart does out to you. In some ways I share a life like yours but from the other side of the bed. My wife is LD, but never was sexually abused, but was sexually inhibited through education in a girls Catholic boarding school raised mostly by nuns. She got to go home to her parents each night, but they were not very loving toward each other and so she had little role models in life for a healthy marriage.
> 
> I am finding your story quite interesting. We have been married over 49 years. We talked about my need for sex prior to marriage and she promised me that things would change after marriage, that marriage would change her. It did and didn't. She still has low desire and always will, I accept that. The good news is that through the help of a sex therapist she understands how important sex is to me and I have learned to accept the gift of her body at times she does not want sexual pleasure, but wants to pleasure me.
> 
> ...


The way I am reading this is a therapist somehow convinced your wife to let you use her body to masturbate with even though she doesn’t want to have sex with you. 

And now you are asking the OP to pretend to be someone else so she will let some fat guy who disgusts her and treats her poorly use her body for his sexual gratification.

That is what I am coming away with from your post.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> The way I am reading this is a therapist somehow convinced your wife to let you use her body to masturbate with even though she doesn’t want to have sex with you.
> 
> And now you are asking the OP to pretend to be someone else so she will let some fat guy who disgusts her and treats her poorly use her body for his sexual gratification.
> 
> That is what I am coming away with from your post.


Here’s what I’m coming away with from your post @oldshirt. 

As for your second paragraph, it seems you confused the OP, @AggieL, with someone else on the thread, and have forgotten her opening began with positivity towards her husband:

_Wonderful, loving, good, *handsome husband* of 25 years and I have JUST entered into a no sex phase of marriage and I am so sad. I honestly could go the rest of my life without sex and only be mildly affected though at times I would definitely feel old and frustrated and very sad. He is a sexual and tactile person who is hurt and disappointed and frustrated and simply cannot take my on and off interest. He is very patient and would and has waited for me to figure it out but the pain is too great for him. He would rather shut it all down than have to deal with repeated rejection and/or a kind but somewhat unenthusiastic partner. For years and years I have had sex or some form of sexual intimacy with him without feeling aroused or with the arousal disappearing within moments of sex. I have also said “no” to him many, many times either verbally or by non verbal signals. Our sexual problems have been with us since the beginning. We have been through the ringer over the past ¼ decade sexually. Me with deep guilt and strong anxiety over the pain I am causing him and him with hurt and anger and helplessness. At my darkest times I fantasize about my death (NOT suicidal just a dark fantasy) freeing him to find a compatible sexual partner. There are LOTS of factors involved. We talk and talk about our issues We have written to each other. We have been to therapy multiple times. I always think it’s getting a little better every time we have some form of sexual intimacy but he has been feeling worse and worse; just so sad that I am not aroused or aroused enough to enjoy him. I am sad too. I will share more of my exact issues (my prompt questions below offer some clues) but this is already long and I'd like to hear from others._

Easy mistake to make, if that’s what happened. Lots of sub-threads here, and IIRC someone else did complain of her own overweight husband. But, Im pretty sure that was not the OP, which is who @Young at Heart was addressing.

Regarding paragraph 1 of your reply, it seems you purposefully chose not to offer an explicit value judgement of “what you took away” from his post, yet at the same you seemed to be hinting at least of your disapproval. Did I understand that correctly?

If so, then I hope @Young at Heart ignores your words, and I have a hard time recalling a more condescending, hurtful, and potentially damaging post in my several years here on TAM.

Seems to me what @Young at Heart has described has been achieved in his situation is significantly more than what you described and apparently sought to trivialize. I think I can understand why it might work for him. The times my wife managed to provide affection towards me although not naturally/ideally motivated meant the world to me; it made me feel loved, partly because of her lack of desire and abundance of inhibitions. Fortunately, what you or anyone else thinks about that doesn’t diminish it for me. I hope @Young at Heart similarly doesn’t get swayed.

As for his suggestion that the OP purposefully try on a different mindset/persona and see if it works for her, that seems potentially worthwhile, consideringshe desires to be more sexual and let go of some inhibitions wired in during her younger years. Worth a shot, IMHO.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> The way I am reading this is a therapist somehow convinced your wife to let you use her body to masturbate with even though she doesn’t want to have sex with you.
> 
> And now you are asking the OP to pretend to be someone else so she will let some fat guy who disgusts her and treats her poorly use her body for his sexual gratification.
> 
> That is what I am coming away with from your post.


If that is what my words seem to imply, it is not what I meant. Let me try again.

There is no right or wrong amount of sex in a marriage. Nothing is written is stone. All aspects of marriage are a compromise willingly agreed to by both parties. What you have for dinner, where you go on vacation, major purchases, and a host of other things are compromises within marriage, just like the frequency and type of sex.

I could be HD compared to my wife of 49 (high 30-years when we started therapy) years and LD compared to another woman. That other woman would likely be just as potentially miserable as I was. During my marriage, I have never had sex with another woman, even when I was in a sex starved marriage. I was tempted, but I really do love my wife. 

However, I reached my breaking point about 10 years ago. I realized that if I just divorced her without fixing myself first, I would likely have a hard time achieving the loving sexual relationship I wanted. I would be damaged goods looking for love. So I first worked on fixing myself to become a better me. I also worked on learning as much about relationships as possible so that the next woman in my life would also be happy. I decided to try to fix my marriage first and if I failed, I failed and could move on with no regrets or guilt.

To help in that process we sought help from a nationally known sex therapist. We were in a sex starved marriage and my wife had told me she never wanted to ever have sex with me or anyone again. The sex therapist worked with me and worked with my wife exploring things, having us try various kinds of traditional exercises (sensate focus, yes/no/maybe lists, etc.) along with providing us informational/educational information on sex within marriage. There was a lot of time spent asking my wife to explain why she never wanted to have sex again with anyone and how she formed her beliefs about sex.

The break through came when the sex therapist asked my wife many, many, many times what my wife thought would ultimately happen if we never had sex again. After much avoidance, my wife said we would probably divorce. The therapist asked me if I had ever thought about divorce. I said yes, I had researched the divorce laws in our state and looked up how long it took and had promised myself that by a certain milestone birthday, I was going to be in a loving relationship. That I wanted it to be with her, but if she couldn't give me that, I would divorce her and work on finding someone who could. In the mean time I would work to save our marriage. The therapist thought that was reasonable and gave my wife choices with consequences and sufficient time to figure out what my wife wanted.

Then the therapist helped me define what I thought a loving sexual relationship in marriage looked like. She then worked with my wife to see if my wife had ever been able to do that in the past. She asked if being in a loving sexual relationship with me was something she wanted. She then helped my wife gradually build up to doing that.

After about a month, my wife broke down and said she just couldn't have sex the three times a week she had agreed to. So, the sex therapist worked hard to find a compromise that we could both live with. We settle on sex twice a week with certain other intimacy, dates, and other things. We both agreed to the new revised compromise. I should point out that when I say sex, I really mean something far more than just ejaculating, I mean the emotional connection and bonding that occurs with making love.

Now after that long background, I will get to the heart of why I am responding. ".....therapist somehow convinced your wife to let you use her body to masturbate......"

No the choice was totally that of my wife. The sex therapist helped my wife understand the options, the seriousness of the situation, my desperation, and my resolve, but the choice was totally that of my wife. I had made myself a promise, I had worked with my wife on a compromise and then revised the compromise.

As I said earlier, there is no right amount of sex in marriage. For me, ten years ago, zero was not an acceptable frequency. I viewed it as not a marriage at all. I took vows of marriage not celibacy. I now know men who have had prostate cancer and other medical conditions that have left them totally impotent. If that happened, maybe I could live with zero, but I am not sure. I would hope my wife and I could find another form of intimacy and redefine "sex" between us.

What I have learned about my marriage is that I am HD and my wife is LD. For us to be happy we needed to find a compromise. I am not asking my wife to fake sexual desire she does not have. I really do enjoy bringing my wife to orgasm, it gives me great pleasure. She also has learned to enjoy using her body to pleasure me, but it is not based on her level of sexual desire, it is based on her love for me. Those intimate moment overwhelm me emotionally because I really know how much she loves me and wants to make me happen. You may view that as my masturbating within her body, but I don't.

If I were to refuse to have sex with her unless she was absolutely steeped in sexual desire, we would have sex far less often and I would be miserable and not feel emotionally connected with my wife. I know, we tried that for years.

I really identify with the struggle that the OP is facing. I appreciate her words. She has reminded me how much my wife struggled. I only hope my experience can provide her with some hope.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

PieceOfSky said:


> Here’s what I’m coming away with from your post @oldshirt.
> 
> As for your second paragraph, it seems you confused the OP, @AggieL, with someone else on the thread, and have forgotten her opening began with positivity towards her husband:
> 
> ...


Thank you so much. 

I will give him the benefit of the doubt, but did respond before I saw your post.

I agree with you totally on how much sex with my wife means to me and how wonderful it is even if not naturally/ideally motivated. I want meaningful sex with my wife for the emotional connection and the feeling of bonding it brings about. It is called "making love" for a reason.

I am sure you understand the issues because you have faced the pain. 

Again, my heart goes out to the OP as she is clearly struggling in her marriage and wants to make it work. Her words deeply touched me.

Thank you again for your understanding.


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