# At what point is it time to save yourself?



## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

Quick background:

Wife is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse by a family member
Her family rugswept the whole thing and contiunues to 
Wife has been diagnosed with clinical depression and PTSD
We have been married for almost 9 years and have a 5yo daughter
We have been together a total of 15 years
She is a SAHM, I work full time but also handle about 70% of the household/parenting duties

Since we had our daughter, our relationship has been on a decline. She is frequently hostile and rages over insignificant things. She shows no appreciation for anything I do and it is never enough. She is overwhelmed by being a mother and often is unable to spend more than a few hours with our daughter without completely shutting down and retreating to the bedroom to isolate herself and cry. We have little to no connection anymore, I dread being around her due to the extreme negativity, anger and helplessness.

I don't tell you these things to vilify her. She is sick and as such can't help it. I get that. This is what makes it so hard for me to change my miserable situation. I am filled with guilt for thinking about leaving her. I have stood by her and supported her all these years. Things had gotten mug better before we were married, but since becoming a mother the situation has become increasingly unbearable for me. I also have guilt and conflict about what is best for my D. She loves her mom and needs her, but I am seeing the effect of her being around such an angry, negative person on a regular basis. 

So the real issue I am grappling with is at what point do I decide I've done all I can do and save myself? Another mitigating factor is that I was diagnosed with a very serious heart condition the year my daughter was born. While my heart has greatly improved, I have no doubt that my lifespan has been shortened. Do I have 3 more years or 30? I don't know. How can I afford to squander the time I have left in such a miserable situation? My cardiologist tells me that stress is about the worst thing for my heart. That's the only thing I get out of this marriage.

I have told her many times that I would always take care of her, never give up on her. How can I now break my promise?

Not sure I expect any answers, but thanks for reading.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

zookeeper said:


> I have told her many times that I would always take care of her, never give up on her.


This might be part of the problem. You gave her carte blanc to do exactly what she has done. 



zookeeper said:


> How can I now break my promise?
> 
> Not sure I expect any answers, but thanks for reading.


The way you tell her is to say that you have given all you have to give. You wish you were stronger but you have found that just like her, you are human and have limitations.

Now about your daughter. Getting her away from her mother as much as possible is probably the best thing you can do for her. 

Talk to an attorney to make sure your wife does not get primary custody. Supervised visitation might be the best thing... to always make sure there is another adult around.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

zookeeper said:


> She is sick and as such can't help it. I get that.


As we discussed last October, Zookeeper, the behaviors you describe are classic traits of BPD and childhood sexual abuse greatly increases the risk for developing BPD. That discussion begins at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/physic...vor-childhood-sexual-abuse-2.html#post1114541. If your W has strong traits of BPD, this condition provides an EXPLANATION for her selfish and childish behaviors -- but not an EXCUSE. It does not give her a free pass to repeatedly abuse you and your 5 yo daughter. 

Where you are mistaken in your thinking is the notion that, if she has strong BPD traits, she has a disease -- like chickenpox -- over which she has no control. Significantly, BPD is NOT a disease. Rather, BPD is a dysfunctional way of thinking that has been ingrained since early childhood and thus is very difficult to change. 

There are many excellent treatment programs available all over the country which teach BPDers developmental skills like managing their emotions, doing self soothing, and intellectually challenging their intense feelings instead of accepting them as facts. Sadly, it is rare for a BPDer to stay in such treatment long enough to make a real difference. This is not because BPD is an untreatable disease. Instead, it is because the vast majority of BPDers make the choice, every day, to NOT confront their issues and seek therapy.


> I am filled with guilt for thinking about leaving her.


If your W has strong BPD traits, you likely are harming her more by staying with her than you would by leaving. One reason is that your presence serves to trigger a BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. Hence, despite your repeated efforts to sooth a BPDer, you likely will serve more to destabilize her by being a trigger for her rages and temper tantrums.

Another reason is that, as long as you continue to protect her from suffering the logical consequences of her own bad behavior, you will be destroying her opportunities to confront her own issues and learn how to manage them. This is why it is important that she be allowed to experience the logical consequences of her bad choices. Otherwise, as long as you continue to be her "enabler," she will have no incentive to seek therapy and learn how to better manage her own emotions.


> So the real issue I am grappling with is *at what point do I decide I've done all I can do and save myself?*


No, if your W has strong BPD traits, you don't have to decide at what point you've done "all I can do" because you cannot do a thing to help a BPDer _at any point_. With a BPDer, you are always in a lose-lose situation no matter what you do. 

The main reason for this conundrum is that a BPDer's two fears lie at opposite ends of the VERY SAME spectrum. This means that, as you _back away _from one fear (abandonment), you are necessarily _drawing closer _to triggering the other fear (engulfment from intimacy). I discuss that problem in greater detail in my posts at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. 

As to the other goal you mention -- i.e., _saving yourself_ -- that objective is not paramount. IMO, your primary objective should be the best interests of your young daughter. At issue, then, is whether she will be better off being raised in an environment that is dysfunctional 100% of the time or 50% of the time (i.e., joint custody). I agree with EleGirl that getting your DD away from her mother as much as possible may be in her best interests.

To answer that question, it is important to consider how severe your W's BPD traits are and how dysfunctional your family unit is. Finally, if you do decide to divorce, I suggest you read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> This might be part of the problem. You gave her carte blanc to do exactly what she has done.


Guilty as charged.



Uptown said:


> It does not give her a free pass to repeatedly abuse you and your 5 yo daughter.


The abuse is directed at me, but my daughter is perceptive and picks up on it. There is an effect. Mommy rarely feels good. Mommy is crabby. Mommy can't play with you right now. Let's let mommy rest. My daughter is becoming frustrated and acts out to get mommy's attention.

I agree that it has to change, but I am afraid of a split custody arrangement. I work from home, so I'm able to be there a lot. I can intercede and shield my daughter from a lot. When my wife begins to shut down or freak out, I am there to grab my daighter and take her out of the situation. If we were to get a 50/50 arrangement, half of her time would be spent unsupervised with my wife and I would have no way to protect my daughter. I may be looking at this all wrong, but my daughter is my number 1 priority and I just can't leave her alone with a lunatic.

I need to do more research on BPD. She had an IC a while back that mentioned the word "borderline" just one and my wife quickly found a reason to stop seeing her.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

I don't know anything about BPD or ptsd or anything like that. I know that my wife is rcovering from depression and a need to rebuild trust from scratch. I know that these days I am giving 150% and receiving closer to 20% from her. I can accept that for a while during her recovery and give her time to rebuild trust. All I have asked/required from her is that her commitment level and effort be consistently growing in the right direction. Meaning I don't care if it takes three months or three years to get to a healthy level, as long as everything is constantly going in the right direction.

So for me, if it reaches a plateau, and forward momentum stops, then that is when I would have a problem and need to start making some decisions.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

zookeeper said:


> She had an IC a while back that mentioned the word "borderline" just one and my wife quickly found a reason to stop seeing her.


That's one reason that therapists usually are loath to tell a BPDer the name of her disorder. They know the BPDer almost certainly will terminate therapy on hearing the true diagnosis. 

The result is that most BPDers (and their spouses) are only told the names of the co-occurring disorders like depression, bipolar, PTSD, anxiety, and adult ADHD. Ironically, this means that your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion about a BPDer is to consult with a psychologist who has never seen or treated her.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Your daughter will be safer with 50/50. Right now she is with mom every day. D5 will recognize your protection with 50/50. 

Talk to a lawyer for accurate info. You might get mote than 50% custody. Courts will consider D5's wishes and they will appoint an evaluator if you ask. 

Your wife's abuse is not her fault. She is a victim. You have great symppathy, love, and sadnrss for her. I know, my wife is a sex abuse survivor. The additional facts include your wife is abusing you and your child. Unintentionally yet still abuse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## utah987654321 (Sep 5, 2013)

I am not sure if it's the stress of our lives and having to deal with what feels like 10 moving targets a day...but after reading this and googling BPD I am sitting in front of my computer crying. I'm crying for you, your wife and the fear that I have BPD. If your wife feels anything like I do...the hurt that is inside of me is so overwhelming and it's all I can do to keep going. The thing I want more than anything in the world is to have my husband just hold me...even if I tell him I don't want him to at first, at second or a third time. I want him to hold me and tell me loves me. I don't want him to fix things. I just want to know that he is there, caring about him, and more than anything recognizing that I'm in pain. I just want someone to realize how much pain I am in. How much it hurts me to feel like I am not enough for him. The pain I feel in the disappoint I am to him and to myself. I keep thinking of ways to be a better person that would make him love me enough to care. I have no idea how to give useful advice other than to say, if your wife could change, she would I am sure of that. It's not right and I agree that it's not good for you and your daughter...but if you feel she still loves you just send your daughter to your parents for the weekend and hash this out. It may sound crazy, but just hold her and tell her that your love for her stronger than anything and because of that you are going to figure out how to get through this or handle it so you can be happy as a couple and as a family. 

I would give this a time frame though...if she is like me and wants her husband to love her I would think she would commit to life changes to ensure you don't fall back in the same dangerous and predictable cycle.

If not, you do have to protect your family and yourself and may have to love her from afar.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

utah987654321 said:


> after reading this and googling BPD I am sitting in front of my computer crying. I'm crying for you, your wife and the fear that I have BPD.


Utah, there are no warning signs of BPD in your posts. Being in severe emotional pain and wanting affection from your H does NOT imply you have BPD.


> Just hold her and tell her that your love for her stronger than anything and because of that you are going to figure out how to get through this.


Been there done that. Hundreds of times. It does NOT work with BPDers. One reason is that, because a BPDer is filled with self loathing and is convinced she is unlovable, she simply cannot believe you really love her. BPDers generally are incapable of trusting their spouses for any extended period. Hence, no matter what you say or do to prove your love, they simply will not believe it.

A second reason is that, even if you were able to persuade your BPDer spouse that you love her, she would abandon this belief as soon as her mood changes. A BPDer's feelings are so intense that she is absolutely convinced that whatever she is feeling at the moment constitutes self-evident "facts," i.e., it HAS to be true. Hence, trying to build up a lasting awareness of your love is as futile as trying to build a lasting sandcastle beside the sea. It will be washed aside by the next emotion flooding her brain.

A third reason is that BPDers typically lack a strong sense of "object constancy." This means that they do not perceive of other people as having personalities that are stable over time. This is why a BPDer can adore you for weeks and then, in ten seconds, flip to devaluing you (even hating you) based on some minor comment you made.

A fourth reason is that your efforts to love her will make her feel suffocated and controlled by your personality. BPDers have such fragile and unstable self images that they cannot tolerate intimacy and closeness for very long. The result is that, after you've had a wonderful and intimate encounter with a BPDer, she will quickly become convinced that you've done something very hurtful. In this way, a BPDer will create a fight -- manufactured out of thin air by her subconscious mind -- to push you away.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Get a free or low-cost consultation with a divorce attorney. Let him/her know the true situation. Inquire about:

custody for you
supervised visitation for wife
court-ordered evaluation for wife (might be ordered for you as well)
counseling/therapy for your daughter

Know your rights and the probable (in the attorney's estimation) outcome of a divorce. Once you start becoming more knowledgeable, you will find it easier to make better decisions for your daughter and yourself.

Good luck to you!


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