# I plan to go back home...I doubt she will like it. Advice please.



## Stillkindofhopefull

We've been separated for close to a month now. There is little communication and I'm doing my best to do the 180. It is hard since there are children...two of hers and one is ours but I love them all. I've tried to keep them away from hearing/seeing conflict but it also has made them not really understand why I'm just not home anymore.
I HATE leaving my son when it is her turn to have him. I have to leave him at our house, and I go back to living with my mom and dad. I had been really financially stable prior to our marriage. Now, we aren't bad but it is a lot tighter. Opened up a company to help me be at home more...and now that it is up and running...I don't have a home to go to.

She reads Christian books about how God has a plan for her life.
She is going on a mission trip for a week, next year that she plans for.
She joined a church group.
I don't think she is having an affair...she is often pretty tired and friends say she looks upset a lot.
She has trust issues with me because I texted an old GF (nothing sexual) and told her I looked at porn at times vs complaining about the decreased sex...she felt she never turned me down...I felt she rarely wanted it.
I brought up ideas, sexually, that she thought were pretty bad...I was trying to see what made her "tick" and spice it up. Everything I ever brought up were actually brought up to me by past GFs. But yeah, she couldn't believe I would think such things. 
There are things completely fixable but she says once the trust is over, she can't get it back (I'm her second husband, first was a D 2* physical abuse (3 times) and emotional.
Two messages from members in her family apologized for me having to go through this.
One thinks there is a mental illness (it does run in her family).
Depression is pretty obvious.
I've tried to respect her wishes and finally left the house.
She initially said she got married to me too soon after her divorce and was in a fog.
We have had a lot of good times and good trips but the last year has been hard.
My faith tells me to not give up. To love her regardless.
This site, from what I've read in other's messages, basically tells me it's over.


We have counseling this week, she agreed to go. 
I'm at the point of telling her I'm coming back home. I left per her request and to keep from creating chaos for the kids.
I'm not going back because I think it will make her happy...I'm going back because I'm tired of splitting time with my son and rarely seeing the girls and living out of suitcase.
If we are going to get divorced, this may speed it up but I don't see how being separated has done any real good either so at least I don't have to spend this time in my life only seeing my son 3.5 days a week.
I didn't get married and have a child to only be in his life half the time.
I still love my wife...because she is my wife and I've committed to her. I would work hard on the relationship if the opportunity allows but that looks slimmer everyday.

My question is...should I? Should I go back home and say "this is my house too, my family too. If you still want to be separated, this time you can leave?" 

She really can't afford to. I can't really afford my own place yet. As a couple, we are doing okay financially and it should continue to improve but neither of us can afford to start out on our own right now.

Thanks for any advice. I read this site now probably 10 times a day looking at other's posts. Sometimes it is encouraging, sometimes I think misery just loves company and it helps to see I'm not alone.


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## PBear

Why not bring this up in counselling? That would be the best place to get an impartial opinion on your situation. 

C


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I already gave the counselor a heads up so that he is aware. He meets with her first and then the two of us.
I just plan on doing it after counseling, barring some big unfolding of new information, and wanted to consider things I may have not already thought of before I get there.


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## PBear

Are you going to talk about it with your wife first (in counselling or otherwise), or just show up at the door? Can you two have separate sleeping areas? 

C


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## Stillkindofhopefull

In counseling is where I would like to bring it up. I'm concerned that if I just recommend it, she will say no. I get torn between what is confident and "masculine" by taking control of a situation versus just making matters worse. But having to distract my 2 yr old in order to leave the house and go back to my mom and dads is really getting to me. We are living by all these seemingly unwritten rules she has come up with. She wanted the same schedule for my son that she has with her daughters...one night a week and everyother weekend. I squashed that quick and she conceded but I don't understand where she comes off turning everyone else's world upside down to conform to her needs and wishes.

Thanks for your interest in this thread, btw!


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## NotLikeYou

Stillkindofhopefull-

I am amazed by your Yoga skills. It is unusual for a guy to be able to twist himself into knots as completely as you have for your wife.

(This is not a good thing, in case you were wondering).

In answer to your question of whether you should move back in or not, I think not moving back in is your best course of action.

However, I think you should do some other stuff too, since I'm not just going to dog you for bad decisions.

Go buy No More Mr. Nice Guy and Married Man Sex Life Primer. Read them a few times until some of the advice sinks in.

Get a hobby to eat up your free time. Start doing something you really enjoy that doesn't involve your relationship.

Stop putting effort into seeing your step-kids. Focus on YOUR son.

Instead of having a mental attitude where you're "still kind of hopeful" that things work out, strive for an attitude of "I'm going to be okay no matter what happens."

And spend some time looking in the mirror- there is something inside you that is broken. It causes you to make bad choices, like who you married. You need to understand that, so that it doesn't continue to trip you up in life.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I struggle with walking away because, honestly, I've always thought she was the one...since she was 18. We lost contact, she contacted me on 9/11 and then when he husband abused her while she held her child...she swore we'd be together...then she went back to him. 
Then when we got together again she had this "feeling" that if she didn't act now, she's lose me forever and contacted me after she left her husband.
She was right because I was seeing the girl that...had always been in my life since college (where my wife and I went our own ways afterwards).
We both felt we missed out on each other...although in college I never had the balls to really ask her out, I could ask most anyone else out, just not her...she was my best friend and I was always the "nice guy."
Anyway, basically we have such a history and then the whole fairytale wedding...and a great son and good life, I just hate to see it end.
We both take our faith seriously...not perfect but we do our best.
I want her to know "I'll always be there, even when we struggle...even when she feels it's over, it was a mistake."
That's where a lot of my weakness and "nice guy" stuff comes from I think.
I want to be the couple that makes it through the hard stuff. Right now, she doesn't.
If it is depression I want to work through it. If she is depressed that she married me, I've got nothing...I'm not the hunting type, she is. I don't watch football much, she does. I played three years...I get it, I just have never taken the time to watch it. I work.
I hate the thought of her being with another man watching a football game and being her fun and sexy self. That puts a chill down me.
I am trying to stay busy. At my clinic right now watching a continuing ed video.
I do appreciate your posts.
I need to re-focus. I read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and really related. I probably should it again and quite daydreaming how great it can all be when I've only been shown the opposite.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm 40 btw, never married thinking that when I do, it will only be once.
I don't quit anything. I believe in consistency.
I hate to quit on the one thing I've tried to work so hard to prepare for and feel I had been blessed with.
Makes it really hard to make me realize I blew it...we blew it...whatever.


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## Openminded

Move back in if you aren't interested in divorce. Some separations lead to salvaging marriages but most just lead to more distance. And eventual divorce. So if you want to save it, go back. Then it's up to her what she decides to do but in the meantime you are doing all you can.


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## jld

Texting an old gf? Looking at porn?

I can't believe no one has gotten after you about this. TAM is usually very strict on these issues. They cause distrust.


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## honcho

jld said:


> Texting an old gf? Looking at porn?
> 
> I can't believe no one has gotten after you about this. TAM is usually very strict on these issues. They cause distrust.


We also have no idea how much or how little of this occurred. When it happened, is it going on now? He is getting lip service from his spouse on a great many things right now.

She will be against him moving back home. Separations rarely work other than to teach each other how to live apart. Either she is willing to work on the marriage and issues or she isn't. Him moving back home will force the issue.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Thanks Openminded and Jld.
I'm not interested in divorce but I realize the reality of it happening. But I agree that separation makes divorce more likely rather than less.
I regret the texting and porn. Not trying to minimize it but i told her I wasn't ashamed of my past or past relationships...i remained friends, somehow, with all of exes. She had an ex that would always be in the picture and I was never inappropriate with the texts. I just felt like...we weren't in our twenties...I had what I wanted and i wasn't going to cheat.
Anyway, I still regret it and didn't see how much it hurt her. 
The porn became a bit of a crutch while I was single and going through (or staying out of ) relationships. It was basically rated R stuff but inappropriate nonetheless. Sometimes I'd look at it because I was irritated I wasn't getting what I wanted...sometimes I justified it by thinking it would help me last longer when we had a dry spell...sometimes there would just be a story in the news or somewhere and one thing led to another...in any matter...it never rejected me and I wasn't talking to anyone (in real life or cyber) and wasn't paying for anything. It wasn't something I did all the time.
I didn't realize how low she already was on trust...i feel like I am paying the price for all the hurt her first husband caused and I'm not getting the second chance. 
I was easier to "check out" on.
I do want to go back home.
I'm not a quitter and she is worth the work but it's obvious she doesn't respect me and that isn't something I'm used to. 
She texted me today accusing me of taking the divorce paperwork.
I honestly didn't but she sure thinks I did. I noticed it wasn't sitting where it normally does and figurwd she took it to fill it out.
Anyway, thanks for the insight. Anything is appreciated.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Honcho - I agree, it will force the issue one way or another. 
She told my sil that the only time she feels happy is when she is alone with God... And I went of FB...she used to not like it saying it was just way for others to try to show how perfect their life is, when it really isn't. And now she has been on lately....acting like her life is perfect. 
It isn't.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Sorry for the typos. I can't fix them on my phone.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Tomorrow we go to counseling. 
The 180 has been decently effective...as much as I could do it considering my son. Effective for me at any rate...
I read a lot of stories how the SO contacts the OP often...mine doesn't contact unless she needs to. That kind of hurts...but I do the same.

I see this going in one of 3 ways...
1. She is okay with me coming home.
2. She is reluctant but I still go because it's my home and my family/son.
3. She says "no" and I still go. At that point I will have to tell her to let her inconvenience herself for awhile. She can uproot her kids if she feels that strongly...I initially left because of the ultimatum and I didn't want to make it chaos for the kids.

But it has been about a month. 
Everyone else is stressed at her expense. She is stressed too, but she is the one that chooses the family she started...or not.

One thing that gets me is how she seems to stay so steadfast in her faith...it makes no sense at this point...she posted on social media about her love for her kids in relation to Gods unconditional love for us...and I'm thinking..."hello...I'm here...I'm your husband. God is pretty pro-marriage!"

I will still hope and pray things somehow go remarkably well, but either way, I'm going home. 

I'm going to tuck my son in every night for as long as I can, not just 3.5 days a week.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

You seem to be right unfortunately. "Wasn't ready" for me to come home. The counselor said it went better once I got there than he initially thought that it would.
He said he has seen couples the same way or worse come out better than they have ever been.

She still wears her ring...insists she isn't being given attention from anyone else. 

My whole family hurts over this. 
Her main response to questions about feelings or the future is "I don't know." 
Feels I've taken her for granted.
That everything else takes priority over her. But she never lets me prove otherwisez


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## Stillkindofhopefull

From a faith perspective she said the whole marriage was filled with sin since we started dating before she was divorced.

Her ex married someone before she did...and was abusive so I honestly didn't think as much about it.

He married someone that looked a bit like her and a bit younger.

I just don't think she ever really healed from that. Which left us at an unfair disadvantage. 

I just can't help but to think she married her epitome of a nice guy...the one that wouldn't hurt her. So when I did, there wasn't much grace there to begin with.

I just wish I could have my family back...that I was worth working for...that our family was.

Just seems like everything is about her.

She is a good woman, but that is just how it seems right now.

How the kids feel, how our families feel...how I feel for sure, all not as important.
I still don't want a divorce but it is looking more inevitable to say the least.


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## lifeistooshort

Did you let her know about these things you'd done with ex gf's? That's a sure way to turn a woman off.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Not much crazy was ever done with an ex girlfriend, they were just the ones to bring it up initially. I didn't call them crazy or sinner or horrible...just figured everyone has a kinky side, if that is what you were referring to.
I did say some pretty bad things, looking back...trying to get her to open up. 

If she ever knew how much I really loved her, I'm still not sure that would matter.

One time an old gf/friend was coming through our town (it's off the highway she was traveling). She invited us to meet up a month in advance but my wife had to work.

She called or texted about where to stop and eat but were running late and didn't have much time. She doesn't eat fast food, ever, so I told her about my friend's restaurant which was right by my business. 
I met her and her kids there, showed them my business...it took all of 5 minutes but when I told my wife, you'd have thought we met up in secret at a hotel.

I regret it now but I felt foolish that I couldn't see them for a few minutes the one time they are passing through my town. I just didn't consider that cheating by any means.


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## lifeistooshort

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Not much crazy was ever done with an ex girlfriend, they were just the ones to bring it up initially. I didn't call them crazy or sinner or horrible...just figured everyone has a kinky side, if that is what you were referring to.
> I did say some pretty bad things, looking back...trying to get her to open up.
> 
> If she ever knew how much I really loved her, I'm still not sure that would matter.
> 
> One time an old gf/friend was coming through our town (it's off the highway she was traveling). She invited us to meet up a month in advance but my wife had to work.
> 
> She called or texted about where to stop and eat but were running late and didn't have much time. She doesn't eat fast food, ever, so I told her about my friend's restaurant which was right by my business.
> I met her and her kids there, showed them my business...it took all of 5 minutes but when I told my wife, you'd have thought we met up in secret at a hotel.
> 
> I regret it now but I felt foolish that I couldn't see them for a few minutes the one time they are passing through my town. I just didn't consider that cheating by any means.


You may not, and technically it's not, but different people have different opinions of meeting up with exes. You should really make sure you're on the same page about this, because unfortunately you can't dictate how your wife feels about it anymore then she can dictate how you feel about stuff.

Can you elaborate on what kind of stuff you said in your attempts to get her to open up? It might give some insight into the atmosphere that was created. My hb has said some very inappropriate things to me regarding exes and I can tell you it's damaged things.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

One that hurt the most was about fantasizing during intimacy or to get things going...I am decently built but don't have 6 pack abs which I know she likes so if she wanted to imagine that kind of guy it didn't matter to me as long as she stayed with me which I never really worried about.
I told her about one I had that involved her "dancing" somewhere...like on vacation on an island where no one would ever know us.

There was another about being watched... Pretty bad now that I look back on it and I feel horrible bringing it up but she never seemed to have any real fantasies and I just felt like I wasn't man enough to bring them out of her. That last one, about being watched, was brought up to me by an otherwise conservative gf out of the blue...wanted me to pick and friend and i could watch them...needless to say that didn't happen but it was still an eye opener. 
There are a few others but that sums a lot of it up I think.

I wish I knew what is true hurt that I could help try to work with vs what is just regret about marrying me that I couldn't fix to save my life.


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## honcho

Im surprised the therapist didn't press her more after the I don't know answers. That isn't really an answer and its just avoidance. 

Until she is willing to really discuss what is going on you need to quit assuming blame for things. You have no real idea what you are up against. You cant work or fix anything until she is willing and obviously she isn't. 

So the question are you moving back "ready or not"?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

He asked if I would show her that I respect how she feels, since she feels that she is always second place to whatever else I apparently want, by not coming home yet. And that she show she is willing to work on this by agreeing to continue this therapy. We both said yes...hers seemed basically out of obligation than desire. But he felt really encouraged by it and asked that I be patient...so here I am, back in my old bedroom. For another week.

Whatever she has going on...it is deeper than me. I'd like to wade through the muck and mire with her to get through it but my presence basically makes it worse so I'm going to try to wait it out while making my life better in the meantime.


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## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> He asked if I would show her that I respect how she feels, since she feels that she is always second place to whatever else I apparently want, by not coming home yet. And that she show she is willing to work on this by agreeing to continue this therapy. We both said yes...hers seemed basically out of obligation than desire. But he felt really encouraged by it and asked that I be patient...so here I am, back in my old bedroom. For another week.
> 
> Whatever she has going on...it is deeper than me. I'd like to wade through the muck and mire with her to get through it but my presence basically makes it worse so I'm going to try to wait it out while making my life better in the meantime.


Well since she doesn't know how she feels what are you respecting? She agreed to come back again so you wouldn't move back home, not because she had a desire to change the current situation. 

I find that unusual that a therapist would make bargains like that.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I can see your point.

He called me later, in response to a text of mine, but left a message saying he did think there was more hope in this than maybe I was seeing and to consider it a small victory.

It would almost make more sense if she was having an affair...
She says she just wants to be happy but I think it is something bigger than me...either an underlying depression or just the fact that she has been married since college an hasn't done half the stuff with her life that she probably thought she would have.

Her sex drive seems to have been low for months now...months. 
She has had other stress-related issues that would make intimacy less...appealing, too.

Went by the house, her girls miss me...aren't doing their chores and seem okay but my happy.

All in all, truth be told, I know many have it much worse. I try to remind myself of that.
I tell myself that in the end, at least I did marry the girl of my dreams and have the best son a guy could ask for.

I have family that care and a friend that went through a divorce and has custody of his kids and we talk so that helps.

It kills my confidence and I struggle with God over all of this but I hurt for her almost as much as anything.

This isn't the girl I know and love.
I still will love her but until she loves herself, I don't have a chance.


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## U.E. McGill

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> One that hurt the most was about fantasizing during intimacy or to get things going...I am decently built but don't have 6 pack abs which I know she likes so if she wanted to imagine that kind of guy it didn't matter to me as long as she stayed with me which I never really worried about.
> I told her about one I had that involved her "dancing" somewhere...like on vacation on an island where no one would ever know us.
> 
> There was another about being watched... Pretty bad now that I look back on it and I feel horrible bringing it up but she never seemed to have any real fantasies and I just felt like I wasn't man enough to bring them out of her. That last one, about being watched, was brought up to me by an otherwise conservative gf out of the blue...wanted me to pick and friend and i could watch them...needless to say that didn't happen but it was still an eye opener.
> There are a few others but that sums a lot of it up I think.
> 
> I wish I knew what is true hurt that I could help try to work with vs what is just regret about marrying me that I couldn't fix to save my life.



Ok. First, NEVER EVER APPOLOGIZE for your sexuality. Done in a loving trustful environment fantasy is healthy. Your wife getting angry is HER PROBLEM. not yours. I have some kinky stuff in my brain, and I've told my wife. She's like "eh, not for me". But that's an ok response. 

You need to disconnect the emotional hose. Your wife is severely broken. But so are you! 

So first order of business, quit worrying about her and all her issues. FIX YOURSELF. You keep going on about her feelings and how she's shut out, but she didn't get there on her own. Nice guys lack leadership in their marriage. They engage in covert contracts and defer leadership. They end up with a wife is frustrated and feels unheard. 

So go back and start doing the breaking free activities in nmmng. Move back into your house and tell your wife if she wants to divorce she can move out. Her feelings are hers to deal with so if she can't get past them, it's her fault. 

And as far as "faith" goes, no one ever says "Jesus watched my house burn down" do they. Seems that they only talk about when the good things come. So I think Jesus is telling you, get off your ass and work for what you want.


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## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I can see your point.
> 
> He called me later, in response to a text of mine, but left a message saying he did think there was more hope in this than maybe I was seeing and to consider it a small victory.
> 
> It would almost make more sense if she was having an affair...
> She says she just wants to be happy but I think it is something bigger than me...either an underlying depression or just the fact that she has been married since college an hasn't done half the stuff with her life that she probably thought she would have.
> 
> Her sex drive seems to have been low for months now...months.
> She has had other stress-related issues that would make intimacy less...appealing, too.
> 
> Went by the house, her girls miss me...aren't doing their chores and seem okay but my happy.
> 
> All in all, truth be told, I know many have it much worse. I try to remind myself of that.
> I tell myself that in the end, at least I did marry the girl of my dreams and have the best son a guy could ask for.
> 
> I have family that care and a friend that went through a divorce and has custody of his kids and we talk so that helps.
> 
> It kills my confidence and I struggle with God over all of this but I hurt for her almost as much as anything.
> 
> This isn't the girl I know and love.
> I still will love her but until she loves herself, I don't have a chance.


I do have to question how a therapist could consider this a victory given you aren't moving back home, she was non-committal about working on the marriage and basically refused to answer question with anything other than I don't know. 

The marriage is not all about her. You have value and your wants and needs are just as important as hers. I'd have a real short leash with this therapist if it were me. He needs to win some trust with her to hopefully open up and I can understand that but then he should just be honest about it and not spinning a victory out of it. 

You cant carry the hurt for her and quit trying to do so. That is her burden, you need to deal with your own hurt.


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## tom67

honcho said:


> I do have to question how a therapist could consider this a victory given you aren't moving back home, she was non-committal about working on the marriage and basically refused to answer question with anything other than I don't know.
> 
> The marriage is not all about her. You have value and your wants and needs are just as important as hers. I'd have a real short leash with this therapist if it were me. He needs to win some trust with her to hopefully open up and I can understand that but then he should just be honest about it and not spinning a victory out of it.
> 
> You cant carry the hurt for her and quit trying to do so. That is her burden, you need to deal with your own hurt.


Honcho is spot on.


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## lifeistooshort

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> One that hurt the most was about fantasizing during intimacy or to get things going...I am decently built but don't have 6 pack abs which I know she likes so if she wanted to imagine that kind of guy it didn't matter to me as long as she stayed with me which I never really worried about.
> I told her about one I had that involved her "dancing" somewhere...like on vacation on an island where no one would ever know us.
> 
> There was another about being watched... Pretty bad now that I look back on it and I feel horrible bringing it up but she never seemed to have any real fantasies and I just felt like I wasn't man enough to bring them out of her. That last one, about being watched, was brought up to me by an otherwise conservative gf out of the blue...wanted me to pick and friend and i could watch them...needless to say that didn't happen but it was still an eye opener.
> There are a few others but that sums a lot of it up I think.
> 
> I wish I knew what is true hurt that I could help try to work with vs what is just regret about marrying me that I couldn't fix to save my life.



That's pretty tame stuff, unless you specifically told her that "so and so liked it" or "so and so ex gf suggested it", which it doesn't sound like you did. Contact with ex gf is iffy though.....why didn't you discuss that in advance? You clearly had reason to believe she shouldn't like it. And since you didn't why did you even tell her unless you thought she'd find out anyway? See it sounds like what happened was that you knew she wouldn't like it but you really wanted to see ex, so you conveniently didn't tell he because it's easier to simply beg forgiveness after you've already done what you wanted to do then discuss and risk not doing what you want to do. Even though you know nothing inappropriate went on it's generally shady behavior, so I have to ask if there was other shady behavior going on on your side of the house? I'm asking because it sounds like there's an emotional wall on her side and I'm trying to guess where it might be coming from. You could have nothing to do with it but I suspect you do have a little to do with it.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

The time we met up wasn't planned, we had agreed that we'd try again some other time if they were to ever come through again. When she contacted me again as she was coming through I did have to consider it and I almost didn't go. I just kept feeling like I couldn't go meet her...this girl that has been in my life for 14 years...we never had sex to begin with btw...because I was "grounded" from seeing a friend...like I couldn't be trusted (which I know is ironic given the situation). The two times this happened...that meeting and then texting her when my wife was gone...I asked myself if it were anyone else, would i do the same thing? Would I send the same text? And so I justified it.
I told her in the beginning that I wasn't ashamed my history, I had a lot of hurt being single for so long but I met a lot of great people along the way and didn't want to feel like I could never talk to them again. Her ex would be in our life forever. I never questioned if they were talking about anything...she is a beautiful girl...most beautiful in my eyes, nobody compares...I figured guys would hit on her at times (she is a nurse) and there would be some flirty co-workers...that is pretty much life. I just trusted it wouldn't go anywhere. I never thought I'd hurt her as much as i did.

In full disclosure, this girl was the one I had gone to see in a different country when my wife first contacted me. She knows she basically stole me away and felt the other girl would do the same. The other girl left her first husband for having an EA/PA that she couldnt get past. She would never do that to another person. I knew that. I told my wife when we were together that if it weren't for the other girl helping me get through a tough situation I would never have felt confident enough that my wife...the one I always wanted...would ever really want me. I have my own self esteem issues. But it was true. 
So, I could see her concern but I didn't treat it as serious as I should have for her sake. I knew the deal and no one compared to my wife. 

On other note, there was also a correlation of when the other girl came up, our initmacy improved for the next couple of days. I brought it up a couple times calling it ironic bit it was definitely true and may have swayed my decisions at times since I seemed to end up getting more private time with the one I loved most anyway.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

she also thought I didn't listen to her when she was talking and that if I wasn't talking about something i was interested in, I wasn't interested. Sometimes she'd come talk while I was in my office. I loved it but I really didn't always pay the closest of attention. 
I messed up but never thought it justified all this.

That's why I struggle with whether it is really this, or if she just regrets me and needs reason to justify it herself.


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## lifeistooshort

She doesn't need to justify anything, if she doesn't want to stay with you that's her perogative. Everyone has their own issues, and you don't get to decide what's that important to her just as she can't decide what's important to you. I'm getting a sense that you basically blew off many of her concerns because they weren't important to you, and that's a problem. Perhaps something to discuss in counseling.

Consider with this ex gf though, that you knew it wasn't a good idea and pondered not going. In the end though part of you decided that seeing her was more important then upsetting your wife, so what does that tell you about how important you view her concerns? Would you even be addressing this if she hadn't left you? This could well be a key to a much greater issue in your marriage, that you pass her concerns through your lens and decide if they're important. What's important to your spouse should be important to you, even if you don't think it's that big of a deal. My husband gets upset about some things I think are stupid, but you know what? They matter to him and so they matter to me. Spending a few minutes with an ex, even one that might have been a good friend, would never be worth upsetting him. And since he knows I feel that way he might not even care.....but you don't have this atmosphere of trust and understanding with your wife. The feeling on her end that no matter what, you have her back and she comes first.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

There is a lot of truth in that. I think that is what breaks my heart the most is the realization that my actions really did cause that kind of hurt in my wife. 

The other past of me struggles with why these actions are such deal breakers when others have been through 10 times worse and stay in it to make it better. Why am I, and this family, not worth it? Was I ever to begin with or maybe I wasn't so it didn't take much for her to mentally exit the relationship?


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## happy as a clam

U.E. McGill said:


> Nice guys lack leadership in their marriage. *They engage in covert contracts and defer leadership.* They end up with a wife is frustrated and feels unheard.


^ ^ ^

THIS. Spot-on. :iagree:



U.E. McGill said:


> So go back and start doing the breaking free activities in nmmng. Move back into your house and *tell your wife if she wants to divorce she can move out.* Her feelings are hers to deal with so if she can't get past them, it's her fault.


Great advice. Let HER move if she wants out.


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## Chaparral

You need both books in my signature below asap. They can be downloaded also at amazon. Mmslp is for you, the other is for you both.

I think you referred to your wife as a nurse. Nursing is one of the top to professions for infidelity. How have you ruled this possibility out?

How does she accept divorce being a Christian woman? Infidelity, abandonement and abuse are the only forgiven reasons for divorce.


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## naiveonedave

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> On other note, there was also a correlation of when the other girl came up, our initmacy improved for the next couple of days. I brought it up a couple times calling it ironic bit it was definitely true and may have swayed my decisions at times since I seemed to end up getting more private time with the one I loved most anyway.


that is very common. My intamacy goes up for awhile, every time we are out and I get hit on. Especially if the woman hitting on me is younger or better endowed.... Straight out of MMSLP.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm as confident as I can be that she isn't having an affair...I thought she was at times but the texting was going to her close girlfriend.
She is always focusing on her faith. She doesn't have much time and she doesn't have many "happy days" as if she were in a fog.
I could always be wrong but so far it has all checked out and want to give her the benefit of the doubt.
She struggles with the fact that we were dating before her divorce was final even though her ex married before we did. She feels now that the whole marriage was based on sin...that's a heartbreaker.
I still can't help but feel she has a deeper issue with depression...she can't seem to see the good in anything we've done.
The bad has been bad but not consistent and not to an extreme and I've stopped anything she took issue with.
She feels I don't put her first but since this has all come to a head, she hasn't given me a chance.

We have a beautiful family and overall a very good life. Without the fog of an affair...which I'm pretty sure she considers us as having been that now, nothing seems I justify this exiting of our marriage but she is looking for anything that could.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Oh, and she justifies our divorce (if we go that route) as me having committed adultery because I looked at the online stuff. Doesn't hold a lot of water with me but she also tells me emotionally how much it hurt.


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## BeachGuy

Don't go back unless you can be at peace with the way things were when you left. Because they're not likely to change to your satisfaction. You can't make people change.


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## lifeistooshort

It's really uncool to use religion to strong arm someone that doesn't want be married. And I'm sure that most religions are not really cool with porn, so if you're going to play the religion card at least apply it consistently. I'm not getting into my personal feelings regarding porn, just pointing out the inconsistency here.


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## lifeistooshort

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> There is a lot of truth in that. I think that is what breaks my heart the most is the realization that my actions really did cause that kind of hurt in my wife.
> 
> The other past of me struggles with why these actions are such deal breakers when others have been through 10 times worse and stay in it to make it better. Why am I, and this family, not worth it? Was I ever to begin with or maybe I wasn't so it didn't take much for her to mentally exit the relationship?



Probably a dumb question but instead of continuing justify by pointing out how the things that bother her are no big deal, have you considered acknowledging that you should've taken them more seriously? Did you try apologizing for the ex gf thing, without arguing that it's no big deal? Sometimes a straight acknowledgement without further justification goes a long way. .... tell her you should've given more attention what bothered her simply because it bothered her. That has worked well for the hb and I.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I wasn't trying to play the religion card, our faith is a huge factor in what might save this. Grace and forgiveness. She is going on a mission trip and joined a church group so I'm praying that she'll have a change of heart. She is so angry and hurt right now but I just don't know if she will ever see us the same way again. I get that.

I never thought anything I did was so unforgivable...but if it is, it is. I didn't have any addiction or anything like that, I told her that I struggled with it when I felt rejected by her but that just made things worse.

She hasn't let me show her that I've taken everything she has said to heart.

She may just be flat done. She is also hard-headed.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I've read NMMNG and will be getting the other this weekend for sure.
Thanks!


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## U.E. McGill

I can't help but notice one thing about how you portray your wife. Nothing is her fault. She has zero responsibility. If you get divorced it was porn, therefore adultery. You never paid attention to her, she felt neglected. She puts her hands Ingrid and faith that she will be shown the light. She's depressed and has a history of poor choices (her ex husband to start)

The other side is, you let her do all this! You sit there and make excuses for her, that if she'll just come around. Is she just does xyz....

Well brother, you can't fix her! Go look up "white knight" in NMMNG. I say again, take ownership of your own complicity. Fix yourself. On the other hand, make your wife take some responsibility too!

Porn is not adultery. In fact it can be a healthy addition to a marriage. Force the issue with her. If you were using porn was it to placate a need, i.e. a bad sex life? Then put that to her. It's ok to want sex, and if your wife's not providing that, an outlet is necessary. 

Personally I think if you fix yourself you'll find you can do better than your wife you have now.


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## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I wasn't trying to play the religion card, our faith is a huge factor in what might save this. Grace and forgiveness. She is going on a mission trip and joined a church group so I'm praying that she'll have a change of heart. She is so angry and hurt right now but I just don't know if she will ever see us the same way again. I get that.
> 
> I never thought anything I did was so unforgivable...but if it is, it is. I didn't have any addiction or anything like that, I told her that I struggled with it when I felt rejected by her but that just made things worse.
> 
> She hasn't let me show her that I've taken everything she has said to heart.
> 
> She may just be flat done. She is also hard-headed.


Were most of her "issues" with you revealed before or after she became involved in this church group? You mentioned her wanting to go on a mission before obviously she cant take the kids with her. I find it odd and against the norm that she would let her own desires override the mom instinct for lack of a better way to put it.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Most of them were before and they kept sliding downhill. It was the roller coaster effect though...I felt we'd have a few good days sonic bring it up. She'd say she didn't know still and the would get me irritated. I'd want to talk more after that and she'd want to talk less and before you'd know it, 2 hours latee we'd be worse than we were before and then the process would start all over.

I struggle a bit the same thing you brought up...how selfish is it to go on a mission trip to another country to show the love of God when you're own family is in such disrepair. 

For the most part, that isn't the "her" I know. So I hang on looking for the girl I married. But she has been selfish. Non-sexual. Isolated from me and family more.

If she had been more sexual or shown more signs of an affair I'd have gone that route...I did look and thought a couple times there was something to it because so much didn't make sense. My sil and bil also feel there is nobody else and in counseling she said no one is giving her attention...meaning there isn't a guy. He asked her straight forward. She has given me her phone when I've asked and she also wanted to see mine at the same time.

Tonight she was a little more receptive when i picked up my son. More eye contact and she asked if I wanted to come stay with my son and out girls Sunday night so she could go to a women's church Christmas event. She didn't expect to have the girls this weekend or she would have taken at least the oldest.

So yes, there is definitely selfish behavior. The counselor said she demonstrated a pretty classic abused spouse pattern...even though I'm not abusing her, she is shutting down because of the hurt that this apparently triggered.

That's part of the reason I stay. 

Another part...a big part...is that she is my wife and I love her and when I see that best friend in her that I used to know, there is no way I want to throw in the towel.

I've been getting closer to calling it over. A person can only take so much.

There is a song called "Two Houses" by Matthew West. That breaks my heart and is another reminder to try everything.

I do have my own issues, NMMNG spoke volumes to me.

Her faith confuses me a bit, but it also gives me hope. Sometimes what no person can fix, or fill, in another person's life can be fully healed by God and be made better than ever. I've seen it. Not a lot but I have. 

That's why I'm trying to give her the space and work on myself in the meantime. If she wasn't seeking her faith, if it was more evident someone else got her attention, if be done at this point. Sooner even.

But that really doesn't seem to be the case.

I've certainly read though about pretty crazy situations on here so I guess I never 100% can rule out anything.


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## Chaparral

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Oh, and she justifies our divorce (if we go that route) as me having committed adultery because I looked at the online stuff. FrDoesn't hold a lot of water with me but she also tells me emotionally how much it hurt.


Use your Bible and a like minded pastor. The Bible says you can divorce over abuse. That you dated prior to government recognition of the divorce isn't necessarilly adultery.

On the other hand, what she is doing now is abandoning her spouse. Whether or not she divorces you if she marries or has sex with another man she will be in a state of unforgiven adultery.

Check out the website for Focus on the Family, they may be able to help and you can contact them.


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## Chaparral

Was her ex a Christian?

Youu should dig into her mobile hone bill. An affair partner could be listed under a different or womans name. This just all seems off.

Has she been seen by a doctor to see if she is depressed?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Good points. 
I did go through the phone bill. I haven't found anything consistent and she definitely hasn't acted like she has someone new...at one point, I was that someone new. I'm not sure if she feels guilty about that deeper than she let on although she has told me before it was hard being divorced...not that she missed her ex.
He is/was a church goer. Isn't a bad dad and we get along fine when we would see each other.

I think depression has a bigger role in this.

Nothing I do is appreciated. She would sleep and read. House wouldn't be clean very often.

She has had depression before, felt I wasn't there for her at the time.

I've had a basic "Life is hard at times, we don't take medication to get through life."
I may regret that a bit now. I've learned a lot going through this.


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## Chaparral

Have flat out admitted to being wrong about your idea that depression doesn't need to be medically treated?

On the mission she is going on, what type of people are also going? Are you a part of that group relationship wise? How many are going? Who is the leader? How long and where are they going?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Medical, like ourselves. That has worried me some. The same group we went with when we first got together. A lot from the hospital she works at. One of the married girls there, when we went, I'm pretty sure hooked up with a single guy...had a girlfriend but not married. 
I have to trust her more than that. I just have to. If I ever turn out to be wrong, that would obviously change everything. 
I'd like for her to get meds at this point but she feels she cured herself and is no longer depressed.


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## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Medical, like ourselves. That has worried me some. The same group we went with when we first got together. A lot from the hospital she works at. One of the married girls there, when we went, I'm pretty sure hooked up with a single guy...had a girlfriend but not married.
> I have to trust her more than that. I just have to. If I ever turn out to be wrong, that would obviously change everything.
> I'd like for her to get meds at this point but she feels she cured herself and is no longer depressed.


Almost all depressed people state they have cured themselves and depression isn't a problem as they fall further into a depressed state.

This is one of the harder aspects to deal with is getting them to recognize and seek some real help. They almost all find an easy outside validation which gives them a temporary state of "happy" but its a Band-Aid more than a cure. They typically will decide the reason for depression is not themselves, its everyone or everything but them. 

They are unwilling or unable to see the real problem.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I have to admit, the thought of there still being another guy...that might be going on the mission trip has made me sick to my stomach and in a bit of a fog trying to get through my workout tonight.
I don't really know why she would be so set on this trip out of the country even in the midst of all this craziness.
I do think the depression is a key component but it's been about 6 months now since all of this started. She hasn't been working a lot more...she has been trying because she needs her own funds more.

Surely nobody would be so...capable of doing something like that.

The ones that know us both and that we're married. Even if a new guy did come, I'm pretty sure no one would stand for it. And honestly, she is one of the most genuine girls I have ever met.
We haven't touched in about 4-5 months but I know depression can suppress that too.

She is becoming a little more social and looking me in the eye more. 
I'm going to have to see that as a positive but not get my hopes up.


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## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I have to admit, the thought of there still being another guy...that might be going on the mission trip has made me sick to my stomach and in a bit of a fog trying to get through my workout tonight.
> I don't really know why she would be so set on this trip out of the country even in the midst of all this craziness.
> I do think the depression is a key component but it's been about 6 months now since all of this started. She hasn't been working a lot more...she has been trying because she needs her own funds more.
> 
> Surely nobody would be so...capable of doing something like that.
> 
> The ones that know us both and that we're married. Even if a new guy did come, I'm pretty sure no one would stand for it. And honestly, she is one of the most genuine girls I have ever met.
> We haven't touched in about 4-5 months but I know depression can suppress that too.
> 
> She is becoming a little more social and looking me in the eye more.
> I'm going to have to see that as a positive but not get my hopes up.


Well the trip out of country is an escape from the situation. Whether a member of the group has perked her interest or she is chasing just the idea of being away from her life is the question. 

She wants to run from problems more than repair problems.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Agreed. When she first told me about it was when I still didn't foresee all of this happening and I knew she didn't really have a life of her own. She was more a SAHM than a nurse and felt unappreciated. So I actually supported it and halfway figured she'd invite me at some point.
We never had that bad of a life...actually I thought it was a really blessed life but that we were in a rut.

So many of our issues weren't uncommon to couples. 

One of her sisters thinks depression is at the core and runs in the family but no one apparently has pressed her on it that I'm aware of and I think I'd be the last one to sway her right now.

She did ask if I wanted to come over and be with the kids while she went to a women's Christmas deal at church and was more talkative and made a few jokes.

Tomorrow she is bringing my son up to get his haircut by my clinic...it's become a bit of a tradition...she could easily say no, it's a half hour away from our house.

So I'm trying to see those as positives and not second guess it all. It will drive me crazy and more often than not, I've been wrong so far.


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## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Agreed. When she first told me about it was when I still didn't foresee all of this happening and I knew she didn't really have a life of her own. She was more a SAHM than a nurse and felt unappreciated. So I actually supported it and halfway figured she'd invite me at some point.
> We never had that bad of a life...actually I thought it was a really blessed life but that we were in a rut.
> 
> So many of our issues weren't uncommon to couples.
> 
> One of her sisters thinks depression is at the core and runs in the family but no one apparently has pressed her on it that I'm aware of and I think I'd be the last one to sway her right now.
> 
> She did ask if I wanted to come over and be with the kids while she went to a women's Christmas deal at church and was more talkative and made a few jokes.
> 
> Tomorrow she is bringing my son up to get his haircut by my clinic...it's become a bit of a tradition...she could easily say no, it's a half hour away from our house.
> 
> So I'm trying to see those as positives and not second guess it all. It will drive me crazy and more often than not, I've been wrong so far.


Your stuck on her not feel appreciated. While its probably is a factor in what is going on, its not the sole reason your in this situation now. 

You will drive yourself crazy trying to read too much into things right now and you are doing that. Your over thinking little things like her making a joke or being a little more talkative. We have all done that and its our emotions overriding our brains. You do need to pull your emotions in right now to allow your rational side keep you in focus. 

Its not easy and you will think counterproductive at times but it will help you.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

You're right, I am stuck. I don't feel appreciated. I don't feel worth much and I don't know why I'm not worth the effort. Why my family isn't worth the effort. 

I don't understand why this girl, since I've known since she was 14...the otherwise genuine, sweet girl, would rather break up this family while going to church...get even more involved in church and yet still feel somehow justified asking me to leave and expecting me to be okay.

She feels I put her second to everything, that she is/was merely my trophy wife.

When I first got together with her I had built a company that had just broke the million dollar mark (gross, not net). 
Every year thereafter I saw us lose money and spent time trying to figure out why and preventing further loss...as of yesterday I am a good 20k in debt again and lost one more contract...the biggest we currently have.

I look for rays of hope because without some of that for my family, I feel like I did last night and that hurts so bad I worry about my own mental state.

Things will get better, I know they can. 

If she were having an affair that would at least make some sense...some horrible sense.

I still don't think she is with everything I've looked into. This mission trip would be the worst place to try to start one...or continue one. So I try to stick it out without rocking the boat and while improving myself, so that she can see what unconditional love looks like and when things are better, it will all be worth it.

But I realize the other side of that...the side where things don't get better. It is as realistic now as anything. So I try to lean on hope and have some faith and show her love.

That is just where I'm at.

I hurt for the others on this site that are I my shoes, her shoes or worse. I know there are others who are much worse.


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## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> she also thought I didn't listen to her when she was talking and that if I wasn't talking about something i was interested in, I wasn't interested. Sometimes she'd come talk while I was in my office. I loved it but I really didn't always pay the closest of attention.


This is one of women's most common complaints. Women usually NEED real communication, to know her husband actually CARES about what she wants to talk about. You showing no interest, or doing something else when she talks, or acting like you can't wait for her to stop talking...it's very hurtful, humiliating, and demeaning.


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## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I have to admit, the thought of there still being another guy...that might be going on the mission trip has made me sick to my stomach and in a bit of a fog trying to get through my workout tonight.
> I don't really know why she would be so set on this trip out of the country even in the midst of all this craziness.


It sounds to me like she went from parents to husband to you...with no opportunity to just BE. Be on her own, learn her own feelings, accept her shortcomings, decide to become better...and it's all caving in on her, as is fairly common for a woman in her 30s - kind of a female midlife crisis. Old enough to not need daddy any more, but still hating herself, afraid to look to deeply into that, so everything ELSE is the problem...She depends on everyone else to give her her self worth - a task you'll never be able to achieve.

IIWY, I'd be asking HER to get therapy.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I thought that too, asked a couple times before we got married but she swore that if it weren't me, she'd not even consider marriage. It was hard for me to turn down the girl of my dreams but I think you're right, she needed alone time that she never got and not she is forcing it on me.

She just came and brought my son to get his haircut. I felt it was a small step in the right direction but she didn't stay long. We got ice cream but not lunch, she said she had to get back home get things done.

It's hard for me to not act like I care. 

We are going to counseling again tuesday, and I'm hanging out with the kids Sunday night for the first time in awhile. Probably more of a glorified babysitter but at least it is time with the kids.


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## turnera

I get why the MC said to be patient, but I think you need to make it clear you're not willing to just sit back and pay the bills and wait for her to decide if she's going to keep you or let you back in. That if she isn't going to move forward, you're going to move back home and let the lawyers handle the rest.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

That is basically right where I am at.
Seems like everyone else is starting to see that something isn't right in this situation. As it becomes more apparent it helps me become more emboldened instead of ashamed for things she apparently felt were divorce worthy. 

I'm still not proud of any of it and would love a genuine chance to prove it to her but if she never gives it to me, I can't help make her do it and eventually I will be okay...or better.

Truth is, I still love her and I'm praying for her. But God is God and I am not. I can be patient and loving without being a doormat and whipping boy.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

She was dressed up a bit and went to the nearby bigger city last night...had to run an errand for her mom. Out of curiosity I went by the house really early this morning...had to leave early as it was and she knew that...I got there and nothing was out of place...no scurrying, my side of the bed wasn't messed up, the dog wasn't up so nobody went downstairs. I checked my closet looking for a jacket...so nothing of that.

I am staying at a hotel tonight in that same city and was going to pick my son up and bring him back here to stay the day with me, tomorrow morning. 

She asked why I had to stay at the hotel and not come home. I told I don't get much done at my mom and dads.

She offered to bring him up. I thought she was a little concerned about what I'd be doing. I welcomed it and felt kind of good about it.

She had to run to Walmart after she did, I did too...to get to the point, she had reasons why we couldn't go together.

That deflated me a little bit and now I'm wondering if it was more about what I'm doing at the hotel or more about what she wanted to do without any kids at night. 

Still no obvious phone records. The house wasn't clean like she was trying to impress anyone, as she would usually do.

I hate feeling concerned but I'm going to wait until counseling Tuesday before I bring anything up.

Planning, again, to go back home this time.

If she weren't so churchy I'd be more concerned. She texts her Christian friend a lot. A lot. She has replaced me, which I want to bring up as well.

If I'm wrong, now THAT would be hard to forgive or forget.


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## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> now I'm wondering if it was more about what I'm doing at the hotel or more about what she wanted to do without any kids at night.


Who cares? 

She isn't with you, she's a *not nice person* at this point and she is NOT being a person anyone would want to have a family with at this point.

So stop stressing over it. Move on. Find someone who IS a person worth having a family with. Your kids will benefit.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Tomorrow we go back to counseling. Sunday she invited me to eat at her family's big Christmas party (they rent out a building). I had to drop off my son which is why I was going. Her mom initially didn't say anything but them came up and gave gave me a hug...still didn't say much just gave me a real hug. The rest of her family was nice as well and I talked a little to each of them as the event went on. 

I stayed at the house last night while she went to a women's church event. Good time with the kids. 

She still never texts and never calls unless it is about our son so she isn't exactly trying to win me back.

She does still wear her ring.

I have accepted the reality of divorce so that helps me cope.

Still planning to go back home this week. Not because we are okay, we surely aren't. It is just my family and my house and I'm done with the separation.

If she wants more space, she's going to have to leave herself this time.

At least that is the plan.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I do realize her family was likely being friendly because they knew it is likely over as well.


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## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> If she weren't so churchy I'd be more concerned. She texts her Christian friend a lot. A lot. She has replaced me, which I want to bring up as well.
> 
> If I'm wrong, now THAT would be hard to forgive or forget.


Texts her friend a lot?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

A lot. I went a bit crazy when I saw all the messages, trying to figure out who it was. Figured out it was a girl she introduced me to at church she had told me about. The girl was new and had a much harder life story than my wife. Really nice but very different from my wife physically...but seems to be a genuinely nice, kind of quiet girl which is more like my wife. Definitely not the partying type.


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## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> A lot. I went a bit crazy when I saw all the messages, trying to figure out who it was. Figured out it was a girl she introduced me to at church she had told me about. The girl was new and had a much harder life story than my wife. Really nice but very different from my wife physically...but seems to be a genuinely nice, kind of quiet girl which is more like my wife. Definitely not the partying type.


How did you figure out it was this girl and is she married?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Reverse number look up, the last name was correct, first name wasn't. None of the texts were ever past 9:30ish and usually between 9:00 and 5 or 6.
Rarely any calls/ texts late at night period.

She knows better though because we dated before her D was final...she left her first husband twice, came to me both times, saying he abused her (which is why I didn't pay as much attention to dating before the D was final).

She had a second phone with me, so in a bad way, I also know she would be smarter than make it as obvious, too.


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## naiveonedave

just a thought, but she cheated with you, may mean she can cheat on you.


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## turnera

Women in abusive situations RARELY make good partners unless they spend a lot of time alone after leaving their abuse partner, in therapy and learning to be ok by themselves (i.e. not needing a man).


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Naive, I'm well aware of that. When we got together she had left him twice over 10 years, came to me both times, because he physically abused her. The last straw the first time was when he hit her while holding their baby.
Unfortunately she did go back, that killed me once. The second time she felt she at least knew for sure it was over...so I accepted her back. She was no "girl I just met" and definitely not the cheating type.
With that said... Maybe you never really so know somebody.

And I agree that she did need more time alone than she got. She swore she didn't...that I was the one. But she did.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Well...I was on my way to counseling when I saw her pulling away from the church. 

I went straight to my parents house to get my son while trying to figure out what was going on. I called her...nothing. I called the counselor...nothing. The counselor called me back and told me not to follow her. He told me he was sorry but he couldn't help me, she is gone. That apparently the abuse in her first relationship led to such a trust deficit that although she didn't feel unsafe around me like she did him, her trust in me was just gone and she was done. 

He said he really didn't think there was someone else.

I went home, got my son, worried my mom and then took him back to our house where my wife would be.

I got there and brought him inside and she came up to me and just held me. We all 3 had a family hug like we used to...I remember looking at my son's face. He was so happy. Like he could tell he missed these moments. It made me both happy and sad and I was still a bit surprised it was happening.

I'll post more later but to get to the point, she said she has had this conviction for the past 6 months or so that she couldn't shake that our marriage was adultery because she as with me before her divorce was final and since her husband a used her but didn't literally commit infidelity, she technically was supposed to divorce him. She has no feelings for him and never wants to be near him again but feels that our marriage is nonetheless...basically sin.


----------



## turnera

Yay, religion.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

You know, that didn't bother me nearly as much, as I listened to everything, as her having had an affair would have. I guess since it is faith related...and clearly doesn't make sufficient sense...that someone will help her "get it". She is seeing our pastor tomorrow which is good. 

I get more concerned that this justification for breaking up our family DOES make sense... Because that doesn't make sense and worries me a little more about her mental state.

She is going to move downstairs this weekend. She didn't want me to come back home but it wasn't an option this time.

She said she would have to leave and that would mean the girls having to leave. I said that nobody was asking her to leave so that was her call. 

So as it stands now, she is moving downstairs into what was a storage/safe room.

I don't know what she is going to tell the girls but that is on her.

I am glad that there really was no one else. Finally...from all I can tell...someone really didn't cheat. I hope to never have to eat those words.


----------



## honcho

Im not a religious person at all so keep that in mind. Your still not getting the real story here. She tells the counselor she has trust issues from her first marriage and she is telling you that you are living in sin in her mind. 

When the pastor tomorrow tells her she isn’t living in sin and your marriage isn’t based on that, what then? I got a hard time believing the pastor is going to reinforce her line of thinking.


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## turnera

Yeah, that's what I meant. This isn't about sin. This is about her being lost in her OWN mind and soul and not knowing who she is, what she should be or do, how she should feel...she's adrift and she frankly needs a LOT of strong therapy to guide her out of it. Not sure she's even marriage material at this point. If ever. She may be too broken.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I agree on both counts...it just gives me a little actual direction instead of spinning from possibility to possibility. I don't believe anyone is ever "too broken" but I also realize that there are many unhappy endings and we are right up there with least of them.

She is moving downstairs and im going home Friday. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if she doesn't go to get folks this weekend. I don't know how she will explain it to the girls and she still wants the divorce. 

She doesn't seem to accept the level of selfishness going on. That makes me sad because that isn't the girl I knew and makes me wonder what lies deeper inside. Not many people will be able to agree with her so we will find out soon enough.


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## turnera

I knew a nice girl, supposedly happily married, who went to a church therapist (read: one with no PhD in psychology). She became convinced that she had to take care of herself, put herself first, start being selfish, so she could be happy. Boy, did she, overnight. She was divorced in a year. The guy never saw it coming. And of course, it was all his fault.


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## Chaparral

turnera said:


> Yay, religion.


TWisting ones religion isn't religions fault. Suffering abuse is sufficient grounds to leave a spouse, as is abandonement, adultery, converting to a different religion and at least one more I can't think of.

She's just using this as an excuse.

Have you talked to her pastor? What religion is she affiliated with.

Leaving a legitimate husband is a sin. If she remarries now, she will be commiting adultery.

Did you contact the folks at Focus on the Family ?


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## turnera

Um, that's what I posted, Chap.


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## Chaparral

Btw, tell her she cannot take your son with her when she leaves.

Get a lawyer, force her to be psychologically evaluated, std tested and drug tested. In her state, she may hurt the children since she sounds delusional.

I still think she has another man on her mind. Get a var in her car.


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## Blonde

I've been following your thread without commenting.

I'm a Christian woman. If I had gotten together with someone the way you two did, it would be a serious betrayal of my deepest convictions and morals which would be very VERY hard to overcome and pretend that marriage bed is undefiled. 

I believe there might be some guilt and shame attached to sex with my adultery partner now turned husband which would sure dampen the enthusiasm...

That she is attempting to salve the guilt and shame from the betrayal of her own core morals and values by undoing your M doesn't surprise me.


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## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> She knows better though because we dated before her D was final...she left her first husband twice, came to me both times, saying he abused her (which is why I didn't pay as much attention to dating before the D was final).
> 
> She had a second phone with me, so in a bad way, I also know she would be smarter than make it as obvious, too.



She married her affair partner. The foundation of this M is flawed. 

IMO the only hope is to raze this M and start over from scratch and keep things pure (abstain, give her time in spiritual counseling, and court her if you are still interested in working it out with the mother of your child).


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## karole

Why didn't see feel this guilt and shame BEFORE children were brought into the marriage? Does she not feel guilt for destroying her childrens' family? What she's doing seems extremely selfish to me and there is more to it than what she is telling you.
I'm with Chap - this is her excuse. Put a VAR in her car.


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## Blonde

From what OP has shared, I don't see the red flags that scream "cheater".

She told OP she had a growing conviction over the past 6 months that their M was founded in sin. This MAY be her way of repenting (which means "turn away" from the sin)

Putting myself in her shoes if my adultery partner who is equally guilty as I of adultery *falsely* accused me and failed to see my sincere repentance, there would be no recovery from that. 

Read John 8 and beware of throwing stones.


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## Blossom Leigh

You seek forgiveness and stay married. Period. You don't divorce again and commit adultery again.


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## Blonde

karole said:


> Why didn't see feel this guilt and shame BEFORE children were brought into the marriage?


Having a child can take one's head out of one's behind. 

TBH if it was me, at an earlier time in my Christian walk, I would have feared that God might take the child because in my mind he would be a child of adultery. (David and Bathsheeba- baby DIED!) Suddenly there would be a HUGE motivation to don the sackcloth and ashes and make things right with God.


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## karole

Regardless Blonde, she does have a child now that she needs to think of - not to mention her husband. I think if I were in her position, I could live with the guilt of how my marriage started easier than I could live with the guilt of destroying my child's home and my marriage. She needs lots of therapy.


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## Blonde

Blossom Leigh said:


> You seek forgiveness and stay married. Period. You don't divorce again and commit adultery again.


Armtwisting her is not going to work. If she reaches that conclusion she will have to come to it in her own time.

She might even love her new H a LOT and feel like she doesn't deserve to be happy because of how it started... Withdrawing from the M and ending it could be the way she is punishing herself because she cannot forgive herself for betraying her core morals.

IF my version is the truth, treating her like a worthless POS adulteress is not going to convince her to reconcile.


----------



## Blonde

OP, keep in mind that people bring their own baggage into their advice. Among your counselors here are those who were betrayed, were adulterous, had a mommy and/or daddy who were adulterous.

Your circumstances and journey are unique. If your pastor is saying he does not think there is an OM, your wife says she feels conviction, and she is hanging around with sweet Christian gf's, I would be inclined to take your wife's word for it rather than strangers (with our baggage) on a forum


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## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> Armtwisting her is not going to work. If she reaches that conclusion she will have to come to it in her own time.
> 
> She might even love her new H a LOT and feel like she doesn't deserve to be happy because of how it started... Withdrawing from the M and ending it could be the way she is punishing herself because she cannot forgive herself for betraying her core morals.
> 
> IF my version is the truth, treating her like a worthless POS adulteress is not going to convince her to reconcile.


I actually wasn't directing my comments at her as much as it was at the frustration of that doctrinal error she was fed.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Blonde, I want to believe in her convictions...I do...but these convictions are the third in line for what apparently led to all this.

First she said she was in a fog of depression when we were dating (which was the first I had heard of that) and for the first year she was depressed due to pregnancy hormones...which I believed.

Then it was because I had stayed in touch (nothing sexual in any way) with and old friend/gf...who I never had sex with to begin with, and because I told her I looked at porn at times in our marriage and had brought up some ideas that she really didn't like (every single one was something a different gf had brought up in previous relationships) while trying to somehow increase the sex...bad move but I also told her if something didn't make her comfortable it wasn't fun and it was no big deal.

Now it is this conviction.

I can see how they tie in together.

Today the counselor told me though that she is just looking for a reason and he isn't sure why.


----------



## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Blonde, I want to believe in her convictions...I do...but these convictions are the third in line for what apparently led to all this.
> 
> First she said she was in a fog of depression when we were dating (which was the first I had heard of that) and for the first year she was depressed due to pregnancy hormones...which I believed.
> 
> Then it was because I had stayed in touch (nothing sexual in any way) with and old friend/gf...who I never had sex with to begin with, and because I told her I looked at porn at times in our marriage and had brought up some ideas that she really didn't like (every single one was something a different gf had brought up in previous relationships) while trying to somehow increase the sex...bad move but I also told her if something didn't make her comfortable it wasn't fun and it was no big deal.
> 
> Now it is this conviction.
> 
> I can see how they tie in together.
> 
> Today the counselor told me though that she is just looking for a reason and he isn't sure why.


She is either unwilling or unable to tell the true reason. This really is the whole problem right now. You cant fix what you don't know is really broken or what is a "deal breaker issue".

You need to pull yourself back emotionally, your spouse knows your feelings. She is banking on your feelings right now to keep herself in her current state as she has no reason to change it.


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## WorkingOnMe

CSA?


----------



## Chaparral

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Blonde, I want to believe in her convictions...I do...but these convictions are the third in line for what apparently led to all this.
> 
> First she said she was in a fog of depression when we were dating (which was the first I had heard of that) and for the first year she was depressed due to pregnancy hormones...which I believed.
> 
> Then it was because I had stayed in touch (nothing sexual in any way) with and old friend/gf...who I never had sex with to begin with, and because I told her I looked at porn at times in our marriage and had brought up some ideas that she really didn't like (every single one was something a different gf had brought up in previous relationships) while trying to somehow increase the sex...bad move but I also told her if something didn't make her comfortable it wasn't fun and it was no big deal.
> 
> Now it is this conviction.
> 
> I can see how they tie in together.
> 
> Today the counselor told me though that she is just looking for a reason and he isn't sure why.


You need to check her phone bill to see who she is talking to. She may be genuinely guilty. She may be a dozen different things. To protect your family though I would at least hide a var in her car and one in the house and see who and what she is talking about.

This should tell you if she's stable, unstable, safe for the kids, bullsh!ting you, or something else. Maybe she's hearing voices. 

How long is her mission supposed to take? Who is supposed to take care of the kids then?

How has this affected your sex life? How has that coincided with all this?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Honcho, I tend to agree. There is something else there.

I sat by her and her friend at church tonight...I take my son so we keep his little social circles the same, he doesn't have many.

I'm also friends with the pastor. We were going to have lunch this week (it would have been the first time by we'd often bring it up when I'd see him at the gym or somewhere) but I cancelled because my wife feels comfortable there and I don't want her to feel like I'm trying to influence him. He knows there are real problems but no actual details. Funny thing is, he is close friends with this counselor.

I'm not sure what "CSA" is.

About the voices, she does feel that God has put this on Her heart and that He spoke to her on this...it makes me further think it isn't about someone else because since this whole thing started she has been reading her Bible more and a lot of other books about God's plan for your life. Not our life as a couple...not a relationships book for couples.

She said she struggles with it and that it has led to some pretty dark times...relating to depression. So i felt like I needed to get the kid gloves out because she seemed like she was hurting and this hurts me to see her like that...even though her actions hurt me every day.

That all happened two days ago now.

I want to tell her that the way I've always tried to discern God's "voice" with these other voices....inner thoughts...whatever.... Is that the Bible says that God is love and whoever dwells in love dwells in God and He in them.
Then we all know what "love" is...love is kind, love is pure, it isn't jealous and so on....so if the message we are getting doesn't coincide with those factors, it probably something we should put a lot of spiritual stock in. 

I'm considering a VAR but as soon as she ever finds out, since trust is a big underlying issue, that would likely be the icing on the cake.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

The mission trip is one week.

We haven't had sex now in 5 or 6 months. We haven't had meaningful sex in quite a bit longer. Any kind of oxytocin bond is all but gone...or just flat gone.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Honcho, I tend to agree. There is something else there.
> 
> I sat by her and her friend at church tonight...I take my son so we keep his little social circles the same, he doesn't have many.
> 
> I'm also friends with the pastor. We were going to have lunch this week (it would have been the first time by we'd often bring it up when I'd see him at the gym or somewhere) but I cancelled because my wife feels comfortable there and I don't want her to feel like I'm trying to influence him. He knows there are real problems but no actual details. Funny thing is, he is close friends with this counselor.
> 
> I'm not sure what "CSA" is.
> 
> About the voices, she does feel that God has put this on Her heart and that He spoke to her on this...it makes me further think it isn't about someone else because since this whole thing started she has been reading her Bible more and a lot of other books about God's plan for your life. Not our life as a couple...not a relationships book for couples.
> 
> She said she struggles with it and that it has led to some pretty dark times...relating to depression. So i felt like I needed to get the kid gloves out because she seemed like she was hurting and this hurts me to see her like that...even though her actions hurt me every day.
> 
> That all happened two days ago now.
> 
> I want to tell her that the way I've always tried to discern God's "voice" with these other voices....inner thoughts...whatever.... Is that the Bible says that God is love and whoever dwells in love dwells in God and He in them.
> Then we all know what "love" is...love is kind, love is pure, it isn't jealous and so on....so if the message we are getting doesn't coincide with those factors, it probably something we should put a lot of spiritual stock in.
> 
> I'm considering a VAR but as soon as she ever finds out, since trust is a big underlying issue, that would likely be the icing on the cake.



Have her listen to John MacArthurs sermons on divorce. He has an opposing view than your wife. He is a solid teacher if you aren't familiar with him and he explains this very dilemma very tenderly in this 6 part recording. He explains to not divorce in your type of situation, but also how to resolve the guilt. Excellent resource

Jesus' Teaching on Divorce, Part 1


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## Blonde

She doesn't have sex with you because your R started with adultery and there is guilt and shame attached to the sex with you. Not an easy "fix" for that. You can't go back in time and undo it.



Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Then it was because I had stayed in touch (nothing sexual in any way) with and old friend/gf...who I never had sex with to begin with, and because I told her I looked at porn at times in our marriage and *had brought up some ideas that she really didn't like (every single one was something a different gf had brought up in previous relationships)*


*That* would feel to me like you were comparing me sexually to your other conquests.

And porn use is unacceptable in conservative christian circles. If that is your W's belief, she might feel hurt that the porn use was more important to you than her conscience and comfort level. Also IME when my H was using porn, it caused callousness and self-centeredness.

Contrary to all the assumptions by others that your W is a "bad girl", I wonder if she has decided she wants to be GOOD and she does not see you as a good match with that desire (based on your track record)?

Perhaps she is comparing you with others who look "good" ? But I doubt she will take the cheating route there this time as she is now familiar with the destructive consequences.


----------



## Chaparral

Blonde said:


> She doesn't have sex with you because your R started with adultery and there is guilt and shame attached to the sex with you. Not an easy "fix" for that. You can't go back in time and undo it.
> 
> 
> 
> *That* would feel to me like you were comparing me sexually to your other conquests.
> 
> And porn use is unacceptable in conservative christian circles. If that is your W's belief, she might feel hurt that the porn use was more important to you than her conscience and comfort level. Also IME when my H was using porn, it caused callousness and self-centeredness.
> 
> Contrary to all the assumptions by others that your W is a "bad girl", I wonder if she has decided she wants to be GOOD and she does not see you as a good match with that desire (based on your track record)?
> 
> Perhaps she is comparing you with others who look "good" ? But I doubt she will take the cheating route there this time as she is now familiar with the destructive consequences.


So do you have a biblical reference for divorce in this situation, because I sure don't.

Re porn, many marriages are still together because porn took the slack in the spouse's lack of desire.

If she's this strung out over what's been told something else is wrong.

Csa=child sex abuse


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, the only see her point in this is if she lied about her husband abusing her.

How do you know he abused her? Was it physical, verbal ?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> She doesn't have sex with you because your R started with adultery and there is guilt and shame attached to the sex with you. Not an easy "fix" for that. You can't go back in time and undo it.
> 
> 
> 
> *That* would feel to me like you were comparing me sexually to your other conquests.
> 
> And porn use is unacceptable in conservative christian circles. If that is your W's belief, she might feel hurt that the porn use was more important to you than her conscience and comfort level. Also IME when my H was using porn, it caused callousness and self-centeredness.
> 
> Contrary to all the assumptions by others that your W is a "bad girl", I wonder if she has decided she wants to be GOOD and she does not see you as a good match with that desire (based on your track record)?
> 
> Perhaps she is comparing you with others who look "good" ? But I doubt she will take the cheating route there this time as she is now familiar with the destructive consequences.


And perhaps she is self deceiving... quite possible. Affair fog can be really weird Blonde. I do think he needs to at least rule it out, but tackle this doctrinal error immediately.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I'll listen to it this morning on my way to work. Thanks!

One more background piece, mainly for Blonde, I didn't have sex for the first time until I was 29. I wasn't a Boy Scout, I've always been social, but I kept as much as I could until then...once I gave it up and my world didn't collapse I still didn't want to just run wild although part of me did.

I became more desensitized to porn around them because I guess I felt like I wasn't stringing anyone along just for sex...no illegitimate children, no STDs. It was basically my "personal sin" that I compromised with. I'm not saying it was right but it was part of me to a degree when I finally married her when I was 36.

I take my faith seriously but it was an area that was my struggle for sure.


----------



## Blonde

Chaparral said:


> So do you have a biblical reference for divorce in this situation, because I sure don't.


I would suggest reading the Sermon on the Mount from beginning to end in one sitting. That is how it was preached:

Matthew 5-7 It speaks of how a house built on sand will crash:

_“But *everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them,* will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.” Matt 7:26-27​_

Among the *"sayings of Mine"* spelling out what "building on sand" looks like:

_“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matt 5:27-28_​
Looking upon a woman with lust is adultery per Jesus. 
Porn users look upon multiple women with lust.
Adultery is biblical grounds for divorce.


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I became more desensitized to porn around them because I guess I felt like I wasn't stringing anyone along just for sex...no illegitimate children, no STDs. It was basically my "personal sin" that I compromised with. I'm not saying it was right but it was part of me to a degree when I finally married her when I was 36.
> 
> I take my faith seriously but it was an area that was my struggle for sure.


When H was using, I quoted from the Sermon on the Mount to him emphasizing the highlighted...:

_“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, *cut it off* and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matt 5:27-30_​
...and told him I feared for him when he did not "cut it off". 

Impotence finally put the fear of God in him. God "cut it off". He quit the porn and recovered his ability.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Its amazing how self correction and self management happens when faced with the effective consequences. That's funny Blonde.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Blonde - although I don't condone what I did, I also didn't see it as adultery...I never talked to anyone, had a profile anywhere or paid for anything and I never chose it over my wife but mainly when she seemed to reject me. And at first , during the pregnancy when she acknowledged being depressed and apologized for how horrible she was towards me, she sometimes physically flat out rejected me. That took a toll on me. I've felt it before and it really hurt now knowing my wife was doing the same thing. I learned not to try to argue for sex, that never got anywhere so eventually I acted like it wasn't as big of a deal. I did turn to porn a few times then but really not often at all...sometimes we literally just stumble on it...we were googling our names one night out of curiousity and her name brought pretty much exclusively pornographic images. We laughed at the time.
Anyway, I don't want to paint the picture that I was a miscreant who locked myself in my office at odd hours of the night.

I could have handled it better...but we both could have.


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Blonde - although I don't condone what I did, I also didn't see it as adultery...


Yep, my husband argues that too. 

.


> I never... paid for anything


AND that- because he isn't *financially* supporting the industry, he thinks his hands are cleaner

But the words of Jesus seem very black and white to me and twisting them to suit his flesh is laughably transparent self-justification IMO. "Cafeteria Christian" :bsflag:

H argues that they are just pictures and he doesn't have a relationship with them so how can it be adultery? But those pictures are of REAL WOMEN whom God loves and whom Jesus would weep over, not participate in their degradation and exploitation. 

I posted in response to Chap who wondered about what grounds for divorce your W has. Just saying that *if* your wife reads Jesus words in Matt 5:27-30 the way I do, porn use is adultery is grounds for divorce.

There's other passages of Paul which speak strongly of self control and putting sexual impurity of the flesh to death, etc. (eg Col 3:5ff, 1 Cor 9:27 among many)


----------



## Blonde

Can't really tell the context and details of you comparing her with what your old GF's did fantasy and sex-wise? 

Was it clear to her that you were comparing her??? 

If my H did that I would point to the door and tell him "there is the door if you think the grass is greener elsewhere" and be deadly serious about that! 

How would you feel if she said her ex H has a bigger Penis and was a better lover?

Hopefully I am not coming across as harsh. I don't feel harsh toward you, just trying to help you understand through "christian wife eyes"


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

She never knew where the ideas came from, I didn't set out to bring them up. She never had fantasies...I didn't really get it. I felt, because of my self esteem issues, that I just couldn't reach them in her. So I used examples and brought up ideas without necessarily where I got them from.

Regarding the porn...honestly, it is wrong BUT in biblical days it wasn't as easily available. I know the Bible it the same today as it ever was. I would be curious how things would be handled if it were revisited today. You can literally put in "pizza delivery" and get porn.

If my wife would have ever said that porn was a deal breaker I would have thought twice more. But if we were having sex regularly without me instigating it, it probably also wouldn't have happened.

I do feel horrible that I turned down her advances at times...showing her kind of how her rejection hurt me. 

She is a good-hearted woman who has been through a lot. I've been through my share too. I don't see her trying to understand me...Realizing that being single until I'm 36 and still social and sexual while trying to maintain my faith as a single man in today's world...may come with a few issues of its own.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Here is a question I struggle with right now...she hasn't touched me in 6 months.
6 months. Not sexually.

She hurts and I understand but in my lonely times within those 6 months worth of 24 hour days...how would you recommend i deal with 0 sexual and minimal affectionate touching?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I wouldn't worry about that part right now until you know she has changed her mind about divorce. 

Do you think she will be open to listening to the John MacArthur series on divorce? 

I would focus on one thing at a time.

Your efforts to do anything else but correct her divorce stance will be futile. Save your energy for this one effort for now. 

Just practice kindness consistently, give her some space and tell her you would like her to listen to the teaching. If she balks, you will know it is something else. And would be a red flag to me.


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## PBear

She didn't touch you sexuality, but what did you do to try to fix the disconnect? 

Personally, I don't think a spouse has much say in you relieving your sexual needs other than a right of first refusal and no other people involved. Would it really have been any better if you spanked the monkey thinking of her sister or the babysitter rather than some anonymous Photoshoped hottie? I suspect not... 

C


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> She is a good-hearted woman who has been through a lot. I've been through my share too. I don't see her trying to understand me...


Directed to men and only to men: "husbands, live with your wives in *an understanding way*, ... so that your prayers may not be hindered." 1 Pet 3:7

This from Ken Nair about 1 Peter 3:7 rings sooo true to me:

from Discovering The Mind Of A Woman The Key To Becoming A Strong And Irresistable Husband Is... 



> quote:You see, if you want to discover the mind of a woman, you need to recognize that when she is talking to you about what you are doing or saying, she usually wants you to see the attitudes you are showing... And since God is concerned about attitudes, she is reflecting His concern to you...
> 
> When women talk about husband-wife relationships, they usually emphasize attitudes and emotions.... Need I remind you that God says a husband's responsibility is to understand his wife- not vice versa?...
> 
> Insisting that she see my side doesn't make me understanding...
> 
> *Sure, go ahead and insist that your wife understand you. But it would be more Christlike if you said to yourself, "I'm going to demand that I settle for nothing less than completely understanding my wife, even if it seems one-sided. *I'm going to insist that she help me see my poor attitudes and emotional weaknesses." That selflessness on your part will not remain one-sided. Your wife will be drawn to you with deep deep love for you... pg 202-203


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Blonde - although I don't condone what I did, I also didn't see it as adultery...I never talked to anyone, had a profile anywhere or paid for anything and I never chose it over my wife but mainly when she seemed to reject me. And at first , during the pregnancy when she acknowledged being depressed and apologized for how horrible she was towards me, she sometimes physically flat out rejected me. That took a toll on me. I've felt it before and it really hurt now knowing my wife was doing the same thing. I learned not to try to argue for sex, that never got anywhere so eventually I acted like it wasn't as big of a deal. I did turn to porn a few times then but really not often at all...sometimes we literally just stumble on it...we were googling our names one night out of curiousity and her name brought pretty much exclusively pornographic images. We laughed at the time.
> Anyway, I don't want to paint the picture that I was a miscreant who locked myself in my office at odd hours of the night.
> 
> I could have handled it better...but we both could have.


Where is jld with her "active listening"? 

(With gentleness), if I was struggling with H's porn use and H said ^^ to me it would come across like he was not really hearing and responding MY perspective, convictions, and concerns. I would hear minimizing, self defense, and self justification with a dose of blameshifting thrown in right at the end.

Seriously, OP, H and I attended Marriage Help Program For Couples and what we learned there helped H to be better at living with me in an *understanding *way.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I will bring it up soon blossom. I couldn't download it while driving so I didbm a search on YouTube under the same title and listened to that while driving.
I must say, I could see her point more.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde's post above about living with your wife in an understanding way is EXACTLY what my husband chose to do that turned our marriage around!!!! Thank you so much for listing that Blonde!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I will bring it up soon blossom. I couldn't download it while driving so I didbm a search on YouTube under the same title and listened to that while driving.
> I must say, I could see her point more.



No, hun, listen to ALL SIX and you won't

He has a Grace to You app that may give you better access. Go to A - Z and then Jesus Teaching on Divorce.

You will have a LOT of emotions while listening to it, but if you endure to the end of the teaching you will be SO glad you did because it answers SO many questions very well and clearly. And you WILL spot the doctrine error that your wife has accepted. When you find it, share it with her. I PRAY she hears you.


----------



## Kolors

PBear said:


> Personally, I don't think a spouse has much say in you relieving your sexual needs other than a right of first refusal and no other people involved.
> 
> C


This! I've learned through my own last few years of life that this is spot on. So many bitter people get online and cry about their partners watching some porn movie or masturbating and call it a sin or feel cheated on. What do you expect when you turn off the affection and remove sex from the equation? 

If one partner willingly denies the other then they shouldn't feel slighted. You are supposed to take care of each other and your needs, not withhold affection. So much of this could be fixed if you would just lay in the bed and enjoy each other's presence for a while instead of asserting dominance on the partner by controlling the sex life.


----------



## turnera

Kolors said:


> So much of this could be fixed if you would just lay in the bed and enjoy each other's presence for a while instead of asserting dominance on the partner by controlling the sex life.


So much of this could be fixed if women understood men need sex and MEN understood that women have to feel an emotional connection devoid of anger/guilt/manipulation, in order to WANT to give the man sex. Because men often don't understand - or won't remember - that for a woman to have sex when she is feeling unloved, in danger, discounted, etc., is to feel like a hooker.

Do YOU want your woman to feel like a wh*re just so you can have sex? Or do you want to explore WHY she has withdrawn from you, first?


----------



## Kolors

It is back and forth nonsense at that point. Once you slip far enough down a path the rejected person will just appear to be putting on a show when they attempt to make an emotional connection. 

Its wonderful to feel loved and safe, everyone enjoys that. Having to feel 100% connected in order to have sex is a bit much though. We have all taken one for the team and just did it because our partners asked. I didnt feel like a *****.


----------



## turnera

Kolors said:


> We have all taken one for the team and just did it because our partners asked. I didnt feel like a *****.


Oh really?

So what is the male equivalent for a woman having to do what amounts to rape? That you would do week after week, month after month, hoping your spouse will get it and change their ways and stop hurting you? So you don't have to keep 'putting out' just to keep them from pouting and guilting you?


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## Kolors

If you are in a relationship where you are putting out week after week and feeling like you are being raped then you shouldn't be in that relationship. There is no equivalent to rape, what a silly statement. Sometimes, whether you feel up to it or not, you are intimate. Even in a happy relationship. If your relationship breaks down to the point where you dont want to be with your partner, find a new partner.


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## turnera

Kolors said:


> Sometimes, whether you feel up to it or not, you are intimate. Even in a happy relationship. If your relationship breaks down to the point where you dont want to be with your partner, find a new partner.


Kolors, I've supported you 100%. But I'm very disappointed tonight. You are showing utter disrespect for the woman's side of relationships.


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## Kolors

I totally support a woman's side of a relationship, but I don't support anyone being miserable. I used to think it was OK for one person to be less happy than the other. In the relationship that I am in now, granted it is with someone that I was with for quite a while before, we try to not lag behind each other physically or emotionally. We are both grownups and we both know what we want and what we NEED. I understand her needs and languages and she understands mine, we talk about them on a regular basis. 

We also both know that keeping each other happy will in turn keep ourselves happy. Believe it or not, she is the more physical partner and I am the more vocal partner. I've had sex on evenings where I was dog tired and had worked six fourteen hour shifts because SHE needed it. I wanted to sleep but understanding that it is one of her needs, I obliged. I wasn't raped or taken advantage of, I simply understood that if I do not fulfill her needs then she will either become bitter or less likely to respond to mine later.

It is just so easy for many of us to just avoid rejection than continue to do the same thing over and over.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

i got pretty sick pretty quick yesterday so I haven't read much since then. I still will read your link Blossom.

I have another question though... I bought my wife football tickets to her favorite team who is playing our local team....bought them 2 or 3 months ago when doing the Love Dare. 

The game is next week. She has the tickets. I'm going home tonight, planning to stay positive, divorce or not, I just want to be home with my family.

So how should I handle the game? Let her bring it up? If she wants to go with her Christian female friend should I be okay with it? They were $300.00 for the two of them. I hate to waste them but they also aren't worth a fight at this point. I want to handle it cool and confident either way.


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## PBear

You gave the tickets to her. Take the high road and don't bring them up. 

C


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## Blossom Leigh

Let it play out a few days then reassess. Don't bring it up right away. She may offer her plans for them. Give her a chance to do that.


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## Chaparral

Blonde said:


> I would suggest reading the Sermon on the Mount from beginning to end in one sitting. That is how it was preached:
> 
> Matthew 5-7 It speaks of how a house built on sand will crash:
> 
> _“But *everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them,* will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.” Matt 7:26-27​_
> 
> Among the *"sayings of Mine"* spelling out what "building on sand" looks like:
> 
> _“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matt 5:27-28_​
> Looking upon a woman with lust is adultery per Jesus.
> Porn users look upon multiple women with lust.
> Adultery is biblical grounds for divorce.


I've never heard one pastor extrapolate looking at another woman like that was an excuse to divorce. Your suggestion is absurd. If it weren't, everyone would be free to divorce.


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## Chaparral

turnera said:


> So much of this could be fixed if women understood men need sex and MEN understood that women have to feel an emotional connection devoid of anger/guilt/manipulation, in order to WANT to give the man sex. Because men often don't understand - or won't remember - that for a woman to have sex when she is feeling unloved, in danger, discounted, etc., is to feel like a hooker.
> 
> Do YOU want your woman to feel like a wh*re just so you can have sex? Or do you want to explore WHY she has withdrawn from you, first?


I just don't understand how a married man that loves his wife makes her feel like a hooker.

Its very rare that I hear women speak of their husbands needs. I do hear them b!tch about the lack of men interested in marriage. In one study, women rated 80% of men below average. If women had heard as many men as I have say they would never remarry if something were to happen to their marriage or wife, I think there would be a sea change in women's thinking.

Mostly, kids no longer even date in college, they just hook up.


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## Kolors

For sure just give her the tickets. If the worst case happens and you do divorce, it is good to start building a healthy relationship now instead of creating more bad blood.

A little good now may go miles later.


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## Chaparral

BTW, cutting her husband off is the number one red flag for an affair.

Anything else happen six months ago?


----------



## honcho

Chaparral said:


> BTW, cutting her husband off is the number one red flag for an affair.
> 
> Anything else happen six months ago?


Im guessing this is also when the new "Christian" friend came into his wifes life. His wife is texting her a great deal, they talk and spend time together.

Whether this person is a toxic friend or more I believe most what going on right now centers around that person.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Thanks for the advice on the tickets. I will let that be her call. I don't know If she has to work that day or not yet, but she knows so I don't need to bring it up at all.

Regarding her Christian friend...there is a correlation...I really think it does a couple things...my wife feels comfortable around her which is huge because she is an introvert and this other girl has, IMO, bigger problems but my wife may feel like they both have "big problems" and can again, relate more. I think this girl has a good heart, she isn't the type to be a homewrecker and probably loves having my wife as a friend...reminds me of when I was a kid...I felt cooler hanging out with the cool kids and my wife would definitely be one of the "cool kids." Point being, I don't think she is a bad influence...I could be wrong...but I don't think she will say "what the heck is wrong with you? Go save your marriage!" 

The marriage counselor said he knew 30-40 wives that would love to have "our problems" compared to the ones they do.

With that said, I'm getting ready to leave work to go home. I'm going to wait until after dinner so I don't make it awkward if she didn't make me any.

I'm actually kind of excited but I'm not sure why, pretty sure she still doesn't want me there. She is supposed to have made a room downstairs. 

Either way, i'll be with my family and I know at least 3 of the 4 that will be there will be happy to see me.

I just need to act cool and happy and let any potential problems roll off me like no big deal. Not my strongest point, but I can do this.


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## Chaparral

How are you going to act around her? Are you going to act as if nothing happened? As if you're good friends? The 180?

If she behaves as if its an in house separation, do not be acting like a husband anyway.

Did she ask forgiveness from her ex or mention the need to?


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## Chaparral

Did you adopt her kids? Why or why not?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Chap, I plan to act like I'm in a good mood whether she is or not. Not in an irritating way, just...not going to bring up discussions but not going to avoid them if she does.

There is a good chance she will stay downstairs which will be a little odd for the kids to grasp but the girls are down there anyway so at least she'll be there with them. The house was actually built for two families (a construction family owned it and the son's family lived with the parents) so both floors have full kitchens and such. 

I didn't adopt the girls. I treat them like they are mine but respect the fact that they have a good dad in their lives.

If there really does turn out to be someone else...even the idea of someone else that has been strong enough to encourage this behavior, I really think I will be done. I never say never about anything but I don't think much would hold me back given the history of the last 6 months.

But I still do lean towards her feeling guilty, me saying some pretty crude things, us having less and less sex and therefore less and less oxytocin/bonding moments...she has seen my businesses go downhill...a lot because of the time I'd spend with my family, which was worth it...but she never seemed to want to help try to fix it. I think I was the "safety" when we got married...I asked her a couple times, she swore I wasn't but she probably believed it at the time and as real life wore away at us, we didn't protect the relationship. With her depression ALONG with her desire to have faith, I feel like it all led to a sad, twisted mess that is tearing apart a beautiful family and a beautiful woman.

I'm still going to love her and pray for her and try not to focus on the self doubt that can eat at me while I've tried to handle this and figure it all out at the same time...little by little, from gut punch to hope-filled and back to gut punch.

I've accepted that she will be pursuing divorce. It is easier to assume that and still show love vs assume that it will be fine and let my hurt and weakness show when it doesn't, like I did during the initial roller coaster.

It is salvageable, I married her for a reason and I'm not quitter. I'm not perfect, but neither is she. If it doesn't work out, it will be another sad story that didn't have to be but I trust that my son and I will be okay in the long run and learn from all this craziness.


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## Blossom Leigh

Hun, you have GOT to be more proactive on this doctrinal error. Listen to those six sermons back to back by this time tomorrow you need to have them finished and error spotted so that you can share it with her or she will be snatched from you. I would ask her to put thIs on hold until you have finished this study. That is totally reasonable to ask that. You are laying down and letting this woman walk right out your door brcause you are not stepping up and doing your homework. Is she leaves, she will be committing adultery and Bible says, that will be on YOUR head. Time to step up Christian.


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## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Regarding her Christian friend...there is a correlation...I really think it does a couple things...my wife feels comfortable around her which is huge because she is an introvert and this other girl has, IMO, bigger problems but my wife may feel like they both have "big problems" and can again, relate more. I think this girl has a good heart, she isn't the type to be a homewrecker and probably loves having my wife as a friend...reminds me of when I was a kid...I felt cooler hanging out with the cool kids and my wife would definitely be one of the "cool kids." Point being, I don't think she is a bad influence...I could be wrong...but I don't think she will say "what the heck is wrong with you? Go save your marriage!"


This happens more than you think were little problems become big problems because a friend is having bigger problems. They feed off each other creating drama. This new friend wont tell your wife an honest opinion based on what you wrote, she wont tell her she might be wrong. 

She will agree and "humor" your spouse to stay friends and reinforces whats going thru your wifes head. Toxic Friend. 

Your wife has guilt about something. What is the question. Bits a pieces of what she has said fit into the overall issue most likely but you have yet to get to the heart of the issue.


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## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> it is in their nature to disrespect us.


Really? You don't think disrespect, like respect, is earned?


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## turnera

foolscotton3 said:


> I don't believe that is the number one red flag


Of course you don't.



foolscotton3 said:


> *She obviously is withholding for a reason*, and *will jump on any attempt to expose his sins*, but I don't believe for a second she would use his porn use as a way to deflect an affair.
> 
> You slipped into porn *on account of her refusing* your physical needs. She is using that sin to validate her "premeditated," divorce.
> 
> Did you sin?
> *Yes.*
> Did she sin?
> *Absolutely,* she *neglected her vows, she withheld sex, you gave into temptation, and she holds that over your head*.
> But, *she is just as much to blame*, and her sin may have opened you to that temptation.


Just love how uber-religious people are so quick to jump on 'women should submit to men because the Bible says so' to blame everything on the women. Hey, if the women would just 'get it' and submit and let the man decide everything, there'd be no more problems, right?


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## Chaparral

Unfortunately, Christian women are divorcing their men as fast or a little faster than the general population. I suppose for the same reasons. Whatever those reasons, 80% of divorces are instigated by women.

Her "Christian" reasons for divorce are just another excuse to bail. As you pointed out this isn't her first choice for divorcing you. You can be sure if you convince her she is wrong she will find a new reason.

Whether she has already found another partner or not, her actions are following a similar script we see here all the time.

I'm guessing her main problem is her loss of respect for you.

You need to read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER and NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY. Mmslp is downloadable at amazon and also linked to in my signature below.

Google free download of NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY.

BTW, MMSLP is not a sex guide but it explains the dynamic between men and women that has been lost in the last few decades.

Christian men are particularly suseptible to progressive thought on what it means to be a good man. Unfortunately, progressive thought on this issue chooses to discount biology and gets things wrong as usual. 

Your wife's reasons for divorce are BS and you need to realize they are only excuses to dump you.

Tell her your fine with her leaving, she can still have time with your son but you will find a good woman, one that has better mothering abilities.

This is another case of just letting her go being the best course of getting her back. Divide up the money and help her pack. Of course I know you're to humble and nice to do this but that's your downfall.


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## Chaparral

Blonde you stopped quoting the sermon a little to quickly but I can see why now.

Also the translation you used is a bit off. It leaves out looking at a woman with the "intention" to commit adultery.

The sermon also points out divorce for fornication not for having adulterous fantasies. Fornicating and thinking about it are vastly different things. Otherwise there would have never been a child raised in an unbroken home.


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## Blossom Leigh

OP pointing out the error will tell him if she was using it as an excuse  But in order to point it out he has to do his homework. I hope you have made progress on those sermons OP.


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## Blonde

foolscotton3 said:


> Interesting read...
> I've wondered myself, does your faithfulness only require you to not worship other gods or idols?
> 
> Would Christ consider me a follower only on account that I don't follow anybody else?
> 
> Are you considered faithful to your spouse simply because you don't sleep with others?
> 
> Can you refuse Christ along with all other gods and call yourself a faithful Christian?


Not sure what you are getting at here? 

I believe that sex is an entitlement of marriage and chronic sexlessness breaks the vows and is grounds for divorce. (The vows say "to have and to hold" which is a euphemism for sex)

I also believe "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" Matt 5:28 Jesus lips to my eyes black and white. If some pastor says otherwise, I assume he is self justifying porn use (which SADLY is >50% of them). Looking upon other women with lust breaks the M vows and is grounds for divorce: "forsaking *all* others, be faithful* only to he*r, for as long as you both shall live? ..."

I also believe either party having images of someone else between their ears during sex defiles the marriage bed (Heb 13:4) and messes with the levels of intimacy which are supposed to be part of marital physical union. "forsaking *all* others, be faithful* only to he*r, for as long as you both shall live? ..."

I believe that many modern males have bought into Centerfold Syndrome *lies* that women withold as a means to manipulate, punish, and control. 

I believe and IME women are sexual beings who want *GOOD, EMOTIONALLY INTIMATE, EXCLUSIVE* sex and 
I believe a husband has a *biblical obligation* to provide it.


> The onah experience may not be mere mechanical fulfillment, for as such it does not conform to the biblical requirement to rejoice one's wife. Rejoicing means satisfying needs, and it signifies a sensitive and caring involvement of the whole person and a genuine sense of intimacy, (kiruv). Therefore, Maimonides teaches that one may not have intercourse without being mindful, sensitive, and alert. "One may not have intercourse while either intoxicated or sluggish or in mourning; nor when [one's wife] is asleep, nor by overpowering her; but only with her consent and if both are in a happy mood." The act must be capable of expressing devotion. Thus one may not have intercourse if husband and wife are not committed to one another and are thinking of divorce, nor if they quarreled during the daytime and have not resolved it by nightfall. Raavad refers to this as exploitation, using one's partner as a harlot. One should not perform the conjugal act while imagining some other partner. The physical onah must be expressive of love; otherwise, it is simply animalistic.
> 
> Great sensitivity is a basic requirement in the Jewish attitude toward sex. No excuse of superior religiosity on one hand, or of rough-and-tumble masculinity on the other, may justify a less than delicate approach. The Midrash asserts, "The groom may not enter the bridal chamber without the specific permission of the bride." http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/465161/jewish/The-Purposes-of-Marriage.htm


I see OP's situation as extremely complicated by the fact that they both claim to be Christians but their relationship started as adultery. OP is his wife's POSOM that she cheated on her first husband with.

If that was ME, there would be massive amounts of guilt and shame for violating *my own core morals and values*. That guilt and shame would especially be attached to the sex act. MOST professed Christians do not appear to have as sensitive of a conscience as I do but I thought I saw some signs that OP's wife was moving toward a deeper walk with the Lord which would increase her spiritual sensitivity and conscience.

Putting myself into her shoes, sounds like she had a bad first M and saw OP as a KISA. She now realizes he's not. He's got his share of issues


----------



## Blonde

Chaparral said:


> Also the translation you used is a bit off. It leaves out looking at a woman with the "intention" to commit adultery.
> 
> The sermon also points out divorce for fornication not for having adulterous fantasies. Fornicating and thinking about it are vastly different things. Otherwise there would have never been a child raised in an unbroken home.


Adding to God's word is not something I would dare to do. The word "intention" is not in there Chap. Matthew 5:28 Interlinear: Greek-->English ("look upon a woman in order to lust after her"- perfect description of the heart intention of PORN. Men let women learn to read and think for ourselves and there is no going back...  )

Looking upon a woman with lust is heart adultery. Adultery is *grounds* for divorce. One is not *obligated* to divorce even if one has grounds.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

We made it through the night. She isn't any too happy. She left once last night and came back without telling me she was gone. She doesn't report to me, but we do have kids here so it would have been nice to know.

She didn't move downstairs...I think mainly because she didn't have an extra bed and chest of drawers readily available or the help to move it.

She made the kids breakfast, nothing for me, and when I rinsed my bowl and left it the sink she asked if it would have been too hard to put it in the dishwasher...I just left it alone.

In response to Blonde's comments, which I think are well-founded and I am trying to see her perspective more from what you have said. I technically am the OM. I get that. I didn't care as much at the time because he abused her, to me, he was the POSOM for doing such a thing, she stayed in the relationship for 10+ years trying to make it work. I'm not saying that makes it right, I guess I'm just saying that when the girl I have literally always compared everyone else to, says she loves me and I'm the one...I believed her and went with it and felt blessed for having waited so long and finally getting the one I felt was meant for me the whole time...kind of twisted I guess but I didn't see it that way at the time.

On another note, I can see why she feels guilty, if that is truly the motive here, but she needs to take responsibility for everything as well.

She contacted me...I was in a different country with another girl...we were friends but hitting it off...the one I've stayed in contact with. I didn't know my wife had tried to contact me until I got back in the States. Once we did make contact, I had gone back to the other country because of this girl...when I was there she emailed me, I told her I was sorry to hear of everything but I was seeing someone else and I wished her well.

When I got back to the States she would text me, etc...things started falling apart for me and the other girl like they always did in the past. The other girl told me I could see someone else to "meet my needs" if I needed to. I didn't really like the idea, but I did kind of take it as a green light to talk to the girl I eventually married.

I was actually in counseling at this same time because of a previous relationship...I wanted to make sure I wasn't just damaged goods at that point. I mean, I was in my mid-30s, otherwise successful but couldn't seem to keep a solid relationship. I wanted to see if maybe I had been jaded so much by then I that there was something wrong with me.

Anyway, point being, she pursued me, I respectfully said no, she kept it up and won me over. She had always been my number 1. On top of that, she really made me feel loved like nobody else. It made sense at the time and I felt completely blessed. She may regret it now, but it affects a lot of people now. She was a big girl when she married me.

Now she just wants to seemingly apologize and act like it never happened and when I don't go for it, she is nothing but mad.

No mercy, no grace, no love. 

I have started listening to the lectures by MacArthur, btw, and will finish them and then see what I can do with them as far as talking to her.

Thanks for all of the advice and comments lately.

I can see this going either way...either, and only, the grace of God can fix this, or it sadly won't be fixed and I will find someone that loves myself and my son and that will accept me for who I am. 

I think, at this point, with all I've learned, I will make someone a great second husband. I'd still rather just keep my wife and family, learn from this and move on. We will see.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

One other note regarding how we met...the other girl had become distant...my second trip was a "surprise trip" to see her, I don't think she was ready for. I was actually going there partially on business to see about contracting with a hospital that I looked at when I was there the first time.

I was initially content with the first relationship but as I saw the distance grow between us, I would pray for a text or a call from her and no joke, within 5 seconds I would get one from my wife instead. I ever wrote about it after it happened often enough.

The first girl told me I needed too much reassurance at one point while the other girl kept texting me how much she regretted not marrying me to begin with.

It was crazy. But one seemed to exit as the other seemed to enter. I told my wife about the other girl the whole time. At the time, she said she wasn't jealous, that should could "take care of her man"...Idk...it was crazy. 

I had been friends with the other girl for 14 years. Never had sex, just had a respect for each other but never seemed to make it work so in the end, we just stayed legitimate friends.

Do I regret it now? Yes, but I never was sexually inappropriate with the one girl after my wife and I got together. She went through hard times and I felt bad...you know someone for so long and you don't want to see them hurt so sometimes I did send encouraging texts...nothing sexual. I felt like I married the one I wanted...she was with me and life was good. I felt bad for my friend and wanted her to feel encouraged. That is really all it ever was after my wife and I got together. I just felt like the winner, so to speak, I wasn't looking for anyone else. I'm still not.


----------



## Blonde

Chaparral said:


> Unfortunately, Christian women are divorcing their men as fast or a little faster than the general population. I suppose for the same reasons. Whatever those reasons, 80% of divorces are instigated by women.


I wonder how much that would change if pornography were not an issue?

from Covenant Eyes



> The American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers reports that 56% of divorce cases involve one party having “an obsessive interest in pornographic websites.”
> 
> According to numerous studies, prolonged exposure to pornography leads to:
> 
> 
> a diminished trust between intimate couples
> the belief that promiscuity is the natural state
> cynicism about love or the need for affection between sexual partners
> the belief that marriage is sexually confining
> a lack of attraction to family and child-raising


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

The thing about the porn was, it wasn't obsessive...I looked at pretty tame stuff which I still wasn't proud of but I'd also be irritated at times thinking "I should be with my wife but she doesn't seem to want to be with me". It did affect my ego. I was the one that told her about it as well. Not like she caught me. Never looked at it when she was around. I told her a few times...in man morris code (did I spell that right?) that I "did better" when she was around instead of working nights because that was when I was most tempted.

Sometimes I was strong enough to turn away from it, sometimes I wasnt.


----------



## jld

Yep, we have to look honestly at our hearts. And most of us have plenty of unkindness there.

Being honest about it should help us have compassion and understanding for others.


----------



## jld

OP, I think you need to become stronger in yourself and not be reactive to your wife. Like a lot of men, you seem to take your cues from your wife instead of becoming your own stable, moral foundation.


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## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> I think its different for men and women.
> 
> Men typically don't require somebody to earn respect. Of course their are circumstances where people were raised in environments that didn't help develop manhood, an example would be disrespect based on prejudices. Respect is also relative, somebody might think its disrespectful to correct or be corrected, lol.
> 
> I think with women, you more so have to earn respect.
> 
> In the contexts of a marriage, I believe it is easier for men to respect than to be disrespectful and easier not to love than it is to love, and it is easier for women to love than not, and disrespect than to respect.


This is because men usually have more power in marriage, and women feel it. When that power is used for the highest good of the family, women are okay with men having it. When it is used selfishly, women resent it.


----------



## Kolors

Blonde said:


> I wonder how much that would change if pornography were not an issue?
> 
> from Covenant Eyes


Read the actual study, it is flawed when they decide how many people divorce due to online pornography. They lump all sorts of things into "online porn" that most normal people separate into different categories. Things such as cybersex, shopping online adds for sexual partners, and heavily violent or deviant pornography use are in the same category of R rated skin flicks on late night television.

The control groups for most of their studies are college age kids, people who are in the midst of divorce, and SEX OFFENDERS! You sort of skew the studies when you have sex offenders and people who are already pissed at each other as control groups. I am sure most of us went to college here, we all had to write papers and find fair control groups.

Not only that, they use research evidence from the early 1980s through the mid 1990s as a basis for conclusions. Granted I was too young to have viewed anything pornographic in those years but I would assume it was much less a social norm then than it is now. Even the study lists the participants as people who frequent adult book stores and X rated movie theaters. Those places have always been seen as places for sexual deviants, not as a place where you go one Thursday night because your husband or wife shot you down for the third week in a row because he/she was pissed at you and withholding sex.

Seriously, this study covers a guy that spent $30k on porn! Who wouldn't divorce this guy? 

The only decent part of the whole study is the affects on adolescents, and I agree, kids shouldn't have access to this sort of stuff. The internet has made it way too readily available and as parents it is near impossible to police everything all the time.

Here is the whole study, its a bad read but I am sure will fulfill the needs of many repressed people to say watching a flick one night is the same as picking up a car load of hookers, getting loaded on cocaine, and having your way with them. 

http://s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/2010/pdf/ManningTST.pdf


----------



## Chaparral

Blonde said:


> Adding to God's word is not something I would dare to do. The word "intention" is not in there Chap. Matthew 5:28 Interlinear: Greek-->English ("look upon a woman in order to lust after her"- perfect description of the heart intention of PORN. Men let women learn to read and think for ourselves and there is no going back...  )
> 
> Looking upon a woman with lust is heart adultery. Adultery is *grounds* for divorce. One is not *obligated* to divorce even if one has grounds.


That's not what it says right after the verse you quoted, it specifically states fornication, not daydreaming.

Look up the lusting part in the Companion Bible that goes through the translations to the original language it was written in.

You seem to be using verses cafeteria style.


----------



## honcho

Blonde said:


> I wonder how much that would change if pornography were not an issue?
> 
> from Covenant Eyes


Porn in this mans case is more and excuse and something to blame him for. Its not the reason he is in this mess today. 

People are focusing on what's she says more than her actions. Her story changes to fit her actions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Blonde said:


> I wonder how much that would change if pornography were not an issue?
> 
> from Covenant Eyes


I doubt they are correct because the divorce rate was close to what it is now before the wide spread availability of porn on the internet. Women also look at porn. Its readily available at bookstores, Walmart food stores etc. in the romance novel and current best sellers sections.

Nearly every movie has some nudity and pretend sex too.

OTOH, I personally believe it is better to keep a family together when one partner gets relief from porn than divorce though that's their God given right when one partner doesn't want to have sex with the other.

Its the lesser of two evils.

When the legislatures enacted no fault divorce it opened the door to women looking for greener pastures and divorce rates skyrocketed. Facebook has only added a ton of fuel to the fire. Statistically those pastures have turned out to be deserts. The odds for remarrying women
plummet every year they get older.

I hope no one minds my saying so but this looks like Zanne's future.


----------



## Kolors

Exactly! In that case is just on the list of excuses. It'll be something else in a few months and something totally different in a year. It it wasn't he saw porn a couple times then it would be that he played Xbox or had a couple drinks at the bar one day.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I still think there is a healthy mix of regret, depression, guilt and low self worth. None of which make for a good marriage.

I'm listening to the series Blossom recommended. I'm in the third part now. I will definitely ask my wife to listen...I will insist before divorce goes any further. Even if she is still wanting divorce at least we will haven both heard the same thing on the topic. I won't be overbearing about it, she may "listen" to it to appease me if I am, but she would be less likely to actually hear the message. But still, thanks for the link!

I think it was Honcho, or Chap, that said that if it weren't this reason it would be another. I tend to agree. Mainly because of all the components I mentioned above.

When I left today to run some errands she was back in our bedroom taking a nap at noon. She works tonight, that is probably part of it, but it also spoke of depression to me.

I'm doing fine with not being a jerk and still being neutral in conversations...not taking the bait when a potential argument comes up.

I'm not sure whether, or how, to show any emotion towards her when I leave the house. Typically is give her a kiss on the cheek or something even when she isn't happy with me...not that she has done the same in months.

She said that when she was first depressed initially, that I wasn't there to comfort her. Whether I am trying to comfort her or just show her consistent love without looking needy and weak...I'm not sure how to do it. Kiss her on the cheek as usual and act happy enough to do it, showing confidence and consistency...or just let it go and show none right now, as she obviously isn't?


----------



## Kolors

None, unless she comes to you. Just because you are in the house doesn't mean you are back on the relationship. Go slow, see what she does. Stay calm and keep avoiding the argument bait. If you fight she has yet another reason to say you should divorce.

Enjoy the kids! Start working on you.read MMSLP, it's huge.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm on that! . I've already written how my marriage has been failing based on the principles of losing alpha in the marriage. Not done with the book but I shoud be soon.


----------



## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I'm on that! . I've already written how my marriage has been failing based on the principles of losing alpha in the marriage. Not done with the book but I shoud be soon.


Your marriage isn't solely falling apart because of losing alpha. You have not driven this marriage to this point by yourself. Don't try and carry that entire burden on yourself and many do in the beginning.

She has plenty of responsibility on ownership of the problems that she needs to address.


----------



## Kolors

I wish I had read that book before I ever got married. I was always the alpha male in my group but lost touch with myself over a decade of marriage. Now I am so much happier in a relationship where my partner enjoys my alpha personality because she is very alpha as well. I used to think opposites attract but sting people need strong people.


----------



## Blonde

Chaparral said:


> That's not what it says right after the verse you quoted, it specifically states fornication, not daydreaming.
> 
> Look up the lusting part in the Companion Bible that goes through the translations to the original language it was written in.
> 
> You seem to be using verses cafeteria style.





> 27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old,[c] ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[d] 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


I suggested OP read the ENTIRE sermon on the mount- Matt 5-7 Above are the verses after the ones you want to discount. H was the one who told me that your right hand causing you to sin refers to masturbation.

Read it however you want
at your own risk... :FIREdevil:


----------



## Blonde

honcho said:


> Porn in this mans case is more and excuse and something to blame him for. Its not the reason he is in this mess today.


He's in this mess today because she was* MARRIED *when they started having sex and they both claim to be CHRISTIANS.

=Recipe for problems....

OP I gather that some of your advisors here have been hurt by their ex-wives/gf's and want the blame to fall squarely on your W but you were an active participant in the adultery.

God is gracious and I don't think this is hopeless. Do it over and do it with purity this time.


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I still think there is a healthy mix of regret, depression, guilt and low self worth. None of which make for a good marriage.
> 
> I'm listening to the series Blossom recommended. I'm in the third part now. I will definitely ask my wife to listen...I will insist before divorce goes any further.


I wish you would also ask her to attend this with you so that you leave no stone unturned for the sake of your son. Marriage Help Program For Couples

Send her the link and see what she says.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OP I am proud of you for pressing forward in your study. It will give you peace of mind that your gut is telling you right. Also, I believe the correction to her doctrinal error is in the last three sermons. I hope you hear it soon. You will even see some of the errors mentioned to you on this thread. MacArthur is one of the best I've heard on the subject. Best balance of truth in love, reasonable and extremely logical.


----------



## Chaparral

foolscotton3 said:


> Porn hurts.
> It gives men, young men especially, unrealistic expectations of women. Young men build their bedroom expectations on what the highest paid *****s in the world can do for a man.
> *The women always look good, always enthusiastic, and always do what you like,* or you can move to the next gallery.


Isn't the bolded part what everyone should expect. I certainly do. And I don't see the average porn actress any better than the average woman. Both groups could improve themselves.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

its getting harder not to take the bait. 

I had an insufficient funds statement from the bank today in the mail and she opens it up and throws it towards me passive aggressively like I'm just another loser. 

Man that p!ssed me off. It was my mistake but she has no idea what it's like getting a new business up and running in the midst of possibly losing the family that I'm doing this for anyway.

And it is growing. In spite of her. Getting harder not to resent her. She is always short. Always angry...yet always going to church. She is taking the girls to one of her church leadership meetings while my son and I go to my family's early Christmas.

I want to tell her to either stop going to church or to start acting like she does.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I want to tell her to either stop going to church or to start acting like she does.


Why don't you start acting like you do? Start being the example of Jesus in her life.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Fair question JLD. 

The honest answer is that I'm trying. Sometimes I'm just not as good at it as I want to be.

I came back because I am the head of the household and I miss my family. I was tired of feeling like I was the bad dog that got put outside.

I came back because I love her. But telling her doesn't seem to do much good. So I try to stay calm and consistent. That jab today hurt. The only thing that really got to me. She just has no idea what it's been like on my side. It could be worse though. I get that.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Fair question JLD.
> 
> The honest answer is that I'm trying. Sometimes I'm just not as good at it as I want to be.
> 
> I came back because I am the head of the household and I miss my family. I was tired of feeling like I was the bad dog that got put outside.
> 
> I came back because I love her. But telling her doesn't seem to do much good. So I try to stay calm and consistent. That jab today hurt. The only thing that really got to me. She just has no idea what it's been like on my side. It could be worse though. I get that.


You _are_ the head of the family. _You_ are responsible for your family.

And the responsible person does not look to others first to meet his needs. He meets theirs, and trusts that as he reearns their trust, his will begin to get met.

I wish my husband were here. He could say a lot to you on how a responsible family man behaves.

And surely one of the things at the top of the list would be not making your wife responsible for _your_ feelings.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I can usually handle things. This has been unlike anything else I've had to go through. 

6 months and counting. I left at her request, I returned without her consent.
I usually feel a bit optimistic. I can see the wife I married still in my future. People have gone through a lot worse.

Maybe I do need a kick in the butt still.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I can usually handle things. This has been unlike anything else I've had to go through.
> 
> 6 months and counting. I left at her request, I returned without her consent.
> I usually feel a bit optimistic. I can see the wife I married still in my future. People have gone through a lot worse.
> 
> *Maybe I do need a kick in the butt still*.


My husband would do it, but he is in Europe, sleeping. 

It really would be best from another man. You men listen to each other better than you listen to us.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Who is supporting the family financially?

What kind of business? Is it netting profit or is it in the red?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm open to criticism.

Did you and your husband go through something similar? Did you treat him the way my wife has been doing? I know it can work out...my faith tells me to wait it out and do the right thing. The world tells me to cut my losses and be done with it. I'm going with my faith. I have really learned a lot and can be stronger for it.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I have been the provider but my wife has a great job when she works (nightshift nurse, she prefers nights because there aren't as many patient's family members to deal with and so that she can be home during the day).

When we first got together I was clearing almost 200k...had flown to the UAE twice because I could...so things were good.

Now I make a fraction of that but rebuilding.

She didn't want to help with the business..."it wasn't what she was into" and liked her job. That made it hard. I went from single to married with 3 kids (2 instantly) in a year. Went from a condo to 3 homes in 4 years. 

I wanted to spend the time with her, I love her and my family but the money wasn't making itself as much as it was losing itself and I had to try to fix it.


----------



## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> its getting harder not to take the bait.
> 
> I had an insufficient funds statement from the bank today in the mail and she opens it up and throws it towards me passive aggressively like I'm just another loser.
> 
> Man that p!ssed me off. It was my mistake but she has no idea what it's like getting a new business up and running in the midst of possibly losing the family that I'm doing this for anyway.
> 
> And it is growing. In spite of her. Getting harder not to resent her. She is always short. Always angry...yet always going to church. She is taking the girls to one of her church leadership meetings while my son and I go to my family's early Christmas.
> 
> I want to tell her to either stop going to church or to start acting like she does.


You need to grow a thick skin and not let this get to you. Its hard but she doesn't care about your side right now. You moved back home and she doesn't like it. 

Every move you make will be criticized by her whether valid or not. She wants you go leave again, she has no interest in repairing the marriage right now. 

What denomination is this by the way if I can ask?


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I'm open to criticism.
> 
> Did you and your husband go through something similar? Did you treat him the way my wife has been doing? I know it can work out...my faith tells me to wait it out and do the right thing. The world tells me to cut my losses and be done with it. I'm going with my faith. I have really learned a lot and can be stronger for it.


No. I am here because a little over a year ago I was trying to figure out what was the matter with me, that I was dependent on my husband in a culture that tells us we should all be completely independent. 

What I learned here is that we all have to be ourselves and that there's nothing wrong with how I am. It works in our marriage.

My husband's integrity, and my respect for that integrity, is the foundation of our marriage. My husband is not emotionally dependent on me. He is Duguesclin, if you would like to look up some of his posts. 

I also have a thread in the Long Term Success section, called Husband key to LTR, which tells more about our marriage and family life.

_You_ are the key to your marriage, OP. You can turn this around. But you have to reearn the respect and trust of your wife. And humility, deep transparency and taking responsibility, is key in that.


----------



## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I have been the provider but my wife has a great job when she works (nightshift nurse, she prefers nights because there aren't as many patient's family members to deal with and so that she can be home during the day).
> 
> When we first got together I was clearing almost 200k...had flown to the UAE twice because I could...so things were good.
> 
> Now I make a fraction of that but rebuilding.
> 
> She didn't want to help with the business..."it wasn't what she was into" and liked her job. That made it hard. I went from single to married with 3 kids (2 instantly) in a year. Went from a condo to 3 homes in 4 years.
> 
> I wanted to spend the time with her, I love her and my family but the money wasn't making itself as much as it was losing itself and I had to try to fix it.


How much is she working? Has she cut her or had her hours cut way back?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Christian non-denom.

She worked less when our son was younger. Now she is working to be able to make it on her own.

She posted today on FB about how she can't wait to go to the football game...with another girl. Just saw it. That hurts. At least they aren't being wasted but another example of how cold she can be considering how much she also touts her faith.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Christian non-denom.
> 
> She worked less when our son was younger. Now she is working to be able to make it on her own.
> 
> She posted today on FB about how she can't wait to go to the football game...with another girl. Just saw it. That hurts. *At least they aren't being wasted but another example of how cold she can be considering how much she also touts her faith*.


Victim speak.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Seriously? I guess the right answer is "thank you ma'am, may I have another?"

And another, and another.

I can take responsibility and I have. I will continue to do so. But she makes it easier to leave the longer this lasts with so little of anything given on her part.

You aren't in the same situation, otherwise I'd take a little more stock in your comment.


----------



## jld

If we want you to get stronger, it can help to point out where you can improve.

How could you turn that victim speak around so it could help you, instead of hurt you? 

In other words, how could you see what happened differently, and then empower yourself, instead of feeling victimized?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

It could help me if I just told to her the deal was off and move on with my life. It would be a custody battle for my son but she would have brought that on herself.

I could keep acting like nothing hurts.

I could tell her I'm going and act like it will be fun...but that would go over like a lead balloon.

What would work for you if you were her?

I'm getting tired of this but my faith isn't done with it. I don't want to give up on this family.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> It could help me if I just told to her the deal was off and move on with my life. It would be a custody battle for my son but she would have brought that on herself. Reactive -gives her the power
> 
> I could keep acting like nothing hurts. Not truthful. We hurt ourselves when we lie.
> 
> I could tell her I'm going and act like it will be fun...but that would go over like a lead balloon. Probably seen as intrusive, maybe even threatening.
> 
> What would work for you if you were her? "I will miss you."
> 
> I'm getting tired of this but my faith isn't done with it. I don't want to give up on this family. Of course you don't. You love her and your child. You have only begun to fight for your family (not fight in an aggressive, violent sense).


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I appreciate that last comment. Really.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

You too, Honcho...for the thick-skin reminder.


----------



## jld

I am not really mean at all, OP. But if I am not direct with you, you won't change. And you have to change if you want your family back.


----------



## honcho

jld said:


> _You_ are the key to your marriage, OP. You can turn this around. But you have to reearn the respect and trust of your wife. And humility, deep transparency and taking responsibility, is key in that.


Its takes both of them to turn this around. They both are keys to making the marriage work. This is not his sole job to make this work and make her happy.

Until she is transparent and open with the issues and is willing to work on them he will just spin his wheels. She hasn't been.


----------



## jld

honcho said:


> Its takes both of them to turn this around. They both are keys to making the marriage work. This is not his sole job to make this work and make her happy.
> 
> Until she is transparent and open with the issues and is willing to work on them he will just spin his wheels. She hasn't been.


Defeatist talk.


----------



## honcho

jld said:


> Defeatist talk.


Its not. Its much better to watch him spin his wheels jumping from one different version of what wrong to the next hoping he lands on the right one?

Does he need to make changes, of course. Every married couple needs to do that and adapt in order to be successful. She needs to make changes also, she is far from perfect.


----------



## jld

He only has control over himself. He needs to focus on making himself stronger, more secure. He has to stop reacting to her, letting her actions influence him so much.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

You both are right. She is responsible for making this marriage work as much as I am. 

But for now, like Honcho said, she isn't in this. So it is on me to better myself and keep this going while she is the way she is.

And like JLD is saying, I need to be strong regardless of her as well as for her.


----------



## jld

Have you asked your wife if you could pray with her? Do you pray for her?


----------



## farsidejunky

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Seriously? I guess the right answer is "thank you ma'am, may I have another?"
> 
> And another, and another.
> 
> I can take responsibility and I have. I will continue to do so. But she makes it easier to leave the longer this lasts with so little of anything given on her part.
> 
> You aren't in the same situation, otherwise I'd take a little more stock in your comment.


So let me see if I understand this straight. You say because she is not in your chair, she can't tell you to not act like a victim?

How about from someone who just went through what you are currently going through; the first step in fixing this is to stop feeling sorry for yourself.


----------



## farsidejunky

honcho said:


> Its takes both of them to turn this around. They both are keys to making the marriage work. This is not his sole job to make this work and make her happy.
> 
> Until she is transparent and open with the issues and is willing to work on them he will just spin his wheels. She hasn't been.


Perhaps so, but she is not ready to start it. He has to lead, and she has the choice to either join him or get left behind.


----------



## farsidejunky

Look OP. I was where you are in January. My wife did not respect me. My wife would not have sex with me. I was miserable. And I was prepared to blow up my marriage if _she_ did not get better.

Do you know what allowed it to get to that point? Feeling sorry for myself; whoa is me; look how bad my situation is.

And this situation may or may not be able to be remedied. But I promise you that your marriage is over if you continue to act like the ability to fix your situation is beyond your control.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Point taken...irritatingly at first, but taken nonetheless. And with your similar background, it means that much more. Thanks.


----------



## farsidejunky

I am going to tell you something. There are a handful of people who were instrumental in my learning and improvement. JLD is one of them. 

If what she says pisses you off, then have the discipline to ask yourself why, because chances are it hits a little closer to home than your emotions care to admit.

And my wife _adores_ me now. It is not tolerance, but actual admiration. 

Is that what you are seeking?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

It is.

So let me try to get this straight...work on me...which I am...be kind towards her...not cold, not weak.

I am going to work on the communication, it sucks. I don't want to press her, that has made it worse in the past, but we have to talk more than we are now. She just seems mad at every point in any attempt to talk. I can let it go now but I can't say it is helping anything.


----------



## jld

Are you familiar with active listening?


----------



## turnera

As bad as it sounds, it IS kind of like playing a game at this point. You need to be something that doesn't come naturally to you- lead, roll it off your shoulders, be positive, not need her approval.

THAT is what will get her to care again.


----------



## farsidejunky

You need to focus on not reacting to her emotional outbursts. At first, you may have to fake it. I did. But ultimately, focus on trying to see the words behind her emotions. It ties into active listening, and I will relinquish that to JLD. That is her baby.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I've heard of it, that is about it. 

Sounds appropriate.


----------



## jld

Active listening is for drawing out someone who might be hesitant to share her heart with you. It takes patience and a true desire to see into her heart. It is listening to the emotions underlying her words.

Active listening, at its simplest, is basically 3 things:

1). Repeating her words back to her

2). Paraphrasing her words back to her

3). Asking her an open-ended question

But none of them will work without your sincere interest in what she has to say. You have to _listen,_ and _truly want_ to understand her.

It takes humility. And if you interrupt her, defend yourself, or give her information, she will shut right down.

Patience. Humility. Sincere desire to understand her.

We can practice, if you want. That might help you do it with her.


----------



## farsidejunky

And it is hard when you are emotionally entrenched in resentment. But it is a great way to start the communication again.


----------



## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> Pls do, this is new to me.


We could try it if you want. Give an example of something your wife might say to you in an argument.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I am familiar with it. I used to be "a great listener" but with us, it was a complaint of hers.

I use some of the techniques when I do an evaluation with a patient... Clarifying their comments then paraphrasing when they are done to make sure I didn't miss anything.

I can do this. I just have to fight the self doubt that I'm just not good enough. So ironic...I've made every goal I've set for myself over the years...to include marrying this woman...which wasn't as much of a goal as it was a blessing after having waited so long and never married. I felt it was meant to be. And now her issues of self worth and my issues with self esteem have completely gotten the best of this relationship. Her stubbornness doesn't help. 

I still really feel that depression has played a role in this, along with her abuse in her past...and my role in amplifying the problems. If it weren't for her past, we could have probably dealt with all of this much easier and never would have gotten to this point.

She is just so angry when I'm around it seems. There is a country song about that...being angry all the time. Never made sense to me. Sadly, now it really does.

I'm all in to save this marriage and find my wife again. I just have to be consistent in my approach.


----------



## farsidejunky

Active listening has the ability to diffuse the anger. And ruminating about how the past has gotten you to where you are is a one way ticket back to the victim chair. Use the past only to understand, not to play what if. It can't be changed.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

An example is when she talks about how much it hurt to know that I stayed in contact with the ex gf/friend even though she told me it hurt her.

My "defense" was that I never apologized for it or hid it...although I didn't make it public either because it made a bigger deal than it was worth.

For the record, I agree with her now. I didn't at first and never agreed not to talk to her again...but I never made a point to try to talk to her either. Just like anyone else becuase to me she really was like a friend like anyone else.

But still, that is a topic.

That, and not listening unless it is something that I feel is important. :-( 

Probably true but not intentionally. I loved talking to her.


----------



## jld

"Wife, I've been thinking. It must've really hurt you when I was talking to that old girlfriend of mine. I did it even though you told me that it bothered you."

"I wish I had made a different choice. I was really thoughtless and selfish. That is not the kind of man I want to be anymore. And I am sorry I was that way then."

That is not really active listening, but it seemed to fit the example you brought up.

We are flexible here.


----------



## jld

Another thing: You need transparency in your marriage. No secrets. No hiding. You need to confess your sins freely, and sincerely ask forgiveness.

Transparency builds trust.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Point taken.

so crazy. I've been off FB for a month now. Got on to post something for a business that I needed to get the word out for...and she posts that her favorite movie quote is "your heart is free. Now have the courage to go follow it"...I find it more odd than irritating.

Just saying.

She still wears the ring.

I notice no one in her family rarely clicks "like" on her stuff anymore unless it's a photo of one of the kids.

Anyway...back to the active listening.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

About that transparency and confessing our sins freely...it was my mentioning of inappropriate online viewing that became a big part of this mess. 

Me being honest, to include things that I thought might spice things up...were never forgotten and later used against me.

We have a lot of work to do needless to say.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> About that transparency and confessing our sins freely...it was my mentioning of inappropriate online viewing that became a big part of this mess.
> 
> Me being honest, to include things that I thought might spice things up...were never forgotten and later used against me.
> 
> We have a lot of work to do needless to say.


It wasn't your telling her about it that was the problem; it was your _doing it _that was the problem.

Again, do you ask to pray together? Do you pray _for _her?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: I plan to go back home...I doubt she will like it. Advice please.*



Stillkindofhopefull said:


> About that transparency and confessing our sins freely...it was my mentioning of inappropriate online viewing that became a big part of this mess.
> 
> Me being honest, to include things that I thought might spice things up...were never forgotten and later used against me.
> 
> We have a lot of work to do needless to say.


Are you ready... really ready, to give her a heart felt, non defensive, no strings attached apology over these things?


----------



## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> "i need 2get this off my chest...all ive done this week is reflect about what u hav said 2 me..that u wish u would hav waited and not married me ...how do u think that makes me feel that my husband wishes he nevr married me? i think thats bout the worst thing u could say 2 ur wife ..so 4give me 4 getting pissed off at the thought of being around u rite now..but i feel humiliated..i feel like a fool. i feel stupid...im full of anger as i reflect on evrythng u hav said 2 me in last 2wks. im taking it out on my kids and bad mood at wrk which isnt fair... and i dont need2 b thinkng bout that when i hav a final i need2 pass this week...so 4give me 4 thinkn "i" now wish u would hav waited so i could hav waited 4someone who really did luv me and "wanted" 2 marry me rather than someone who "just cares" 4me...apparantly i fell in luv with the wrong perso who doesnt feel the way i do. and now i feel like a complete and utter fool who fell hard 4someone who didnt..goodnite"


You told her you wished you hadn't married her?


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Are you ready... really ready, to give her a heart felt, non defensive, no strings attached apology over these things?


"Wife, it was wrong of me to do those things. There just isn't any excuse. I was wrong and you have every right to be angry with me. I'm sure I hurt you very much."

"Moving forward, that is really not the kind of man I want to be. And I would like to hear the other ways I disappointed you, too. Sad to say, I know there must be many."


----------



## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> No
> I told her I wish we had waited longer.


I am just in shock myself, fc. My heart would be broken if my husband ever said those things to me.

I have to recover for a minute.


----------



## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> I'm constantly defending myself for things I never said, get accused of affairs, or accused of thinking things.
> 
> When I prove to her I never said something, then I am accused of thinking it, or saying it with actions.


You really only said you'd wished you'd waited, not that you wished you had not married her?


----------



## jld

Gentlemen, do you realize how tender a wife's heart is? How she looks to you for affirmation of her very being?

Do you realize you're holding her sense of her own worth in your hands?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I do pray for my wife and we pray as a family before every meal.

She also said, in reference to the other example, that although she thinks we would have still married, we should have waited longer, too. Even though she planned and arranged everything and life was crazy great back then.

She also said the ILYBINILWY and such.

But I know she was, she can rewrite the history all she wants, but I was there, too.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

JLD, I didn't fully realize that. She is smart and beautiful. I never realized how much my time and affirmation meant to her on a personal level.


----------



## jld

To your 11:46 post: That will mess you up right there, OP. Women say all kinds of things when they're in their emotional minds. They don't necessarily mean them.

I have said all kinds of hurtful things to my husband. He uses active listening and it calms me down within minutes. Then I apologize.

He knows I don't mean everything I say when I'm angry. He doesn't hold it against me. He looks past my words to the underlying emotions. And more than anything, he looks at what he may have done to provoke my anger.

Guys, men and women are not the same. You need to be able to take some of the heat in the kitchen. Taking everything she says to heart is just going to lead to a stalemate.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> JLD, I didn't fully realize that. She is smart and beautiful. I never realized how much my time and affirmation meant to her on a personal level.


I'm sure her heart is broken. Shutting you out is her way of protecting it. 

She feels rejected, by the very man she gave her life to. And after having been abused by her first husband. 

She must feel completely disillusioned. Her trust was broken.


----------



## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> No, I would never say that to her.
> 
> We got married 6mo after meeting, the whole 6mo I begged to slow down, but she said if I back out its over, so I disregarded my gut and married her. Now a year and a half in, its like she has no respect for me or boundaries we set (meeting 1on1 w opposite sex friends, talking to opposite sex friends about marriage, giving numbers out to opposite sex singles we meet, posting stuff on fb) she also expects me to choose between her and my son, accuses me for doing things she does, behind my back)


"Wife, when you meet one-on-one with opposite sex friends, and share with them the confidences of our marriage, I feel hurt and disrespected. When you give your number to opposite sex singles we meet, or post things on Facebook that I think are confidential, my trust in you is weakened. Please help me understand why these things are happening."

You brought a child into the marriage, and she is coming between you two? 

For me, that would likely be a dealbreaker. I understand others see it differently. Jmo.

Just saw your latest. It sounds like she doesn't respect you. You could work on earning her respect, but there are some pretty serious issues here. Have you considered divorce? Do you have any children together?


----------



## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> I don't even want to talk to her, it gets twisted so much... last fight, I told her she never showed remorse for anything, so I asked her what I need to do to help her build trust in me... she told me, "I have finals this week, you can leave me alone when I need to study." I said, "I can do that," and I left.... living with mom now, I've never felt so used. I was hoping she would at least, give me a chance to help her build trust, so I could be an example of somebody taking accountability and


I think you should go back and live with her. I assume you are paying the rent?


----------



## jld

Just one more thought on active listening. Active listening is meant to get to the root of the problem. But that doesn't mean that every problem can be resolved. If her baseline stand is different than your baseline stand . . . well, they may not be reconcilable. 

Obviously we are trying to save marriages here, but we have to be realistic, too. 

But enough with the pessimism. Let's see what transparency and active listening can do for these marriages.


----------



## jld

I would encourage you to divorce, fc. This just seems to have all been a mistake, right from the beginning and your feeling pushed into it.

Honestly, what is keeping you with her?


----------



## jld

You seem like a nice man, fc, but I am wondering if you are in over your head. She is doing some very inappropriate things. 

I think your son needs to be your priority. I am afraid with her, he will not be.


----------



## jld

You seem like a very good person, fc. I wish she could see what she has in you that she is throwing away with her foolish choices.

When will she be finished with the program?


----------



## jld

I would put your son first, fc. He is truly dependent on you. She is not.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Please, please, google and read "Toxic parents pdf free". I hope it will open your eyes. Your wife is a toxic parent to your son. He is afraid of her and that's why he's having anxiety, asking you if she'll be there. And YOU are a toxic parent for enabling her instead of protecting her.

If you want to do what is best for your son, you ought to put him first! That means you and your son should move out and you should ensure your son won't have to see her again! You also ought to get your son into counselling. He's depending on you to protect him, and at the moment you're not protecting him! You're sacrificing his well-being for your own benefit (i.e. your relationship with your wife).

You have no common kids with your wife. She's abusive and toxic to your son. Why are you still with your wife? Get out, for your own sake, and if you don't care about that, for the sake of your son! Or you'll be condemning your son to more and more psychological problems, and one day he'll realise you were selfish and didn't protect him, even though you could, and he'll strongly resent you for it.

Please, if you want to talk more about this, let us know and we can. But I implore you to save your son!


----------



## farsidejunky

FC:

You definitely need to start a thread. This is a lot of posting on hopefuls thread, and it is mixing things up for both of you, which does both of you a disservice.


----------



## Blonde

foolscotton3 said:


> If we took Jesus literally, all Christians would look like pirates. Eye patch, and hooks.


Jesus used hyperbole to emphasize the importance of his message and the HUGE impact of ignoring it.

Lots of Christian women filing for D is fallout from ignoring Jesus teaching prohibiting porn use in Matt 5.



> Matt 7
> 
> 24 “Therefore *whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them*, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
> 
> 26 “But *everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them,* will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”


Lots of houses falling to divorce

and Lots of christian men making excuses, justifying, and "massaging" Jesus' words in Matt 5:27-30 so they can blame their W for killing their M and they don;t have to take personal responsibility for their house falling.


----------



## Chaparral

foolscotton3 said:


> My Christian morals, that she no longer shares (and I'm starting to resent them for trapping me)


I can't remember the verses but Christians can divorce non Christians. Maybe you can google it. Its not a moral issue at his point.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Christian women can divorce on the grounds of adultery only if their hearts are too hardened to continue any further...making it in part, a heart problem. 

Not justifying it, that's just what it says from everything I've been reading and listening to.

At this point my wife's heart has been hardened by things that never pertained to me. Then when I did come along she already had such an apparent trust deficit that there wasn't much grace given at all.

Again, I told her I struggled with it. There was a direct correlation between her rejection of me durig her depressive episode and then the further decrease over coming years that did play a role. 

I'm still responsible and i took responsibility and have stopped it.

This all happened, now, almost 5 months ago.

I am not going to give up on this but there is responsibilities both ways.


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> She made the kids breakfast, nothing for me, and when I rinsed my bowl and left it the sink she asked if it would have been too hard to put it in the dishwasher...I just left it alone.


To me, leaving your dish in the sink for her to take care of seems entitled. If I was her it would appear to me that you had an expectation that I must serve you and it would not make me feel warm and fuzzy but taken for granted and *disrespected.*

If you W was here telling that story about the dish, I would tell her it is a boundary issue and she should not wash your dishes. To pile all your dishes up in a box or laundry basket and leave them for you to do.

(We had a similar conflict in my M over laundry and after I read "Boundaries in Marriage" H does ALL his own laundry. He is not entitled to be provided household servanthood just because he is male)


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> Gentlemen, do you realize how tender a wife's heart is? How she looks to you for affirmation of her very being?
> 
> Do you realize you're holding her sense of her own worth in your hands?


This is what I believe the Bible is saying when it says a wife is subject to her husband as well as "your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you"

“But just remember: 
a woman's like a rose; 
if you treat her right, she'll bloom, 
if you don't, she'll wilt.
― Fireproof​


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm sorry, that is crazy. I just did all the dishes this morning. I do a good amount of housework...a good amount. No big deal to me.

If what you're desrcibing is a good Christian relationship, that is one relationship I have no desire to be in.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Skills.. did you finish the sermons?

fc, I would like to comment on your situation but dont want to contribute to the thread jack. Are you planning to start your own thread?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I was referring to the comment about the dish btw, not the one about Fireproof.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> He knows I don't mean everything I say when I'm angry. He doesn't hold it against me. He looks past my words to the underlying emotions. And more than anything, he looks at what he may have done to provoke my anger.
> 
> Guys, men and women are not the same. You need to be able to take some of the heat in the kitchen. Taking everything she says to heart is just going to lead to a stalemate.


Dr John Gottman concurs: "Embrace Her Anger"


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I'm sorry, that is crazy. I just did all the dishes this morning. I do a good amount of housework...a good amount. No big deal to me.
> 
> If what you're desrcibing is a good Christian relationship, that is one relationship I have no desire to be in.


In my case, H never ever did anything which could be considered "women's work", and he had shifted a lot of what is traditionally men's work (lawn care, raking, snow removal) over to me so ALL he did was 40 hours at his job and he came home and put his feet up. And we have 8 children, OP, so my workload was HUGE and neverending. 



> from "Boundaries in Marriage"
> 
> Yet, love is not enough. The marriage relationship needs other ingredients to grow and thrive. Those ingredients are freedom and responsibility. When two people are free to disagree, they are free to love. When they are not free, they live in fear, and love dies: "Perfect love casts out fear" (I John 4:18).* And when two people together take responsibility to do what is best for the marriage, love can grow. When they do not, one takes on too much responsibility and resents it; the other does not take on enough and becomes self-centered or controlling...*Boundaries in Marriage is fundamentally about love. It is about promoting it, growing it, developing it, and repairing it. We want to help you develop love through providing a better environment for it; one of freedom and responsibility. This is where boundaries, or personal property lines, come in. They protect love by protecting individuals.


ETA: What was her ex like? If he was an entitled control freak, the dish incident could be triggering for her.


----------



## Blonde

foolscotton3 said:


> My Christian morals, that she no longer shares (and I'm starting to resent them for trapping me)


Questions and Problems about Divorce and Remarriage

David Instone-Brewer is a Christian professor/academic who has researched this issue in depth. His books are used at seminaries where pastors are trained. There is more biblical freedom to divorce than you are assuming. The above link goes to Instone-Brewer's blog.


----------



## jld

OP, I want to apologize to you for encouraging the threadjack over to fc. He does need his own thread. I reached out to him with compassion; I was leading with my heart, not my head. I should have told him to start his own thread where I could have made those posts. I am sorry if you felt disrespected. Please forgive. I hope we can help both of you, but on separate threads.


----------



## As'laDain

fc, start a thread. its possible to pull your marriage around, but your going to have to change the way you think about it and try some things that might slam hard against how you _feel_.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

No problem. I unintentionally did the same thing when I first came on here.

We are getting ready to go to church. She is as mad as ever.

She says right now she is living in sin. She is going to find a place to live and move the girls. Thinks I am selfish for coming back home before she was ready even though she acknowledged she may never be ready.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> No problem. I unintentionally did the same thing when I first came on here.
> 
> We are getting ready to go to church. She is as mad as ever.
> 
> She says right now she is living in sin. She is going to find a place to live and move the girls. Thinks I am selfish for coming back home before she was ready even though she acknowledged she may never be ready.


"You feel like you are living in sin." Wait for response.

"You feel like I am selfish." Listen.

She resents your power. She feels trapped.

If you could find a way to not give her the feeling you are overbearing, that would help.

She needs to feel she has some power.

OP, I really hope this is not all over.


----------



## Chaparral

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I do pray for my wife and we pray as a family before every meal.
> 
> She also said, in reference to the other example, that although she thinks we would have still married, we should have waited longer, too. Even though she planned and arranged everything and life was crazy great back then.
> 
> She also said the ILYBINILWY and such.
> 
> But I know she was, she can rewrite the history all she wants, but I was there, too.


Another huge cheating red flag. Read this is I like you but no longer want sex with you.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I initiated it a bit, didn't go bad. 

I've been out of the house for a month at her request. 

I want her have power. Right now she really does. She affects so many people by having me move back with my folks and have her family help with child care...they all live 30 minutes away.


----------



## jld

Chaparral said:


> Another huge cheating red flag. Read this is I like you but no longer want sex with you.


Why is it always cheating? A wife really can have a broken heart, or just a confused one, and want space.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I initiated it a bit, didn't go bad.
> 
> I've been out of the house for a month at her request.
> 
> I want her have power. Right now she really does. She affects so many people by having me move back with my folks and have her family help with child care...they all live 30 minutes away.


You initiated what?


----------



## jld

"Wife, you seem to feel powerless. I don't want you to feel that way. How can I help?"


----------



## jld

Have you talked, humbly, to her family and her minister?


----------



## Chaparral

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> No problem. I unintentionally did the same thing when I first came on here.
> 
> We are getting ready to go to church. She is as mad as ever.
> 
> She says right now she is living in sin. She is going to find a place to live and move the girls. Thinks I am selfish for coming back home before she was ready even though she acknowledged she may never be ready.


help her pack. her issues have nothing to do with you. there is nothing Christian about her. She's angry, mean, selfish and hard hearted. I'm guessing her main issues are concerned with money and another male interest. I find it odd she is following the cheater script to a tee with a touch of Christian self righteousness thrown in.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> Why is it always cheating? A wife really can have a broken heart, or just a confused one, and want space.


its a huge flag because people rarely see that as a problem unless someone else is awakening those passions in them. when that happens, the obvious lack of passion that someone feels for their spouse becomes a very obvious problem. 

they dont always cheat, but it usually indicates that they have been made aware of the lack of desire they have for their spouse, while at the same time are painfully aware that they DO have desire. its just for the wrong person. 

unfortunately, its an indication that the stage is set for infidelity. even if there is none. but by that point, there usually is.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> its a huge flag because people rarely see that as a problem unless someone else is awakening those passions in them. when that happens, the obvious lack of passion that someone feels for their spouse becomes a very obvious problem.
> 
> they dont always cheat, but it usually indicates that they have been made aware of the lack of desire they have for their spouse, while at the same time are painfully aware that they DO have desire. its just for the wrong person.
> 
> unfortunately, its an indication that the stage is set for infidelity. even if there is none. but by that point, there usually is.


I agree it's a critical point. I guess I just don't like the rush to assume it's cheating. 

And even if there is cheating, the marriage does not have to be over. But root causes do need to be addressed.


----------



## Chaparral

jld said:


> I agree it's a critical point. I guess I just don't like the rush to assume it's cheating.
> 
> And even if there is cheating, the marriage does not have to be over. But root causes do need to be addressed.


There is a huge difference in pointing out the signs of cheating and saying she is cheating.

The way OP describes his wife does not match her so called morals at all. There is much more to this, whether op doesn't see it or isn't telling us everything.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> *Why is it always cheating? * A wife really can have a broken heart, or just a confused one, and want space.


Some people see through "cheater colored glasses" because they are projecting their own experiences onto others.

You and I, we never cheated so we presume innocence unless there is evidence to the contrary


----------



## jld

Maybe we women should run around pointing out the signs of neglect as often as the men point out the signs of cheating.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> Maybe we women should run around pointing out the signs of neglect as often as the men point out the signs of cheating.


if it works, id say go for it. just remember that if you do this to someone who is being cheated on, you will probably get a visceral reaction. it may be the truth, but you will have to anticipate their emotions if you want to get anywhere with them. 

for someone who is being cheated on, i usually recommend that they detach. hence the 180. because in all honesty, they are hurting too much to see things clearly. they have to get to a point where they are no longer hurting before they can see things clearly. 

but, for situations where there is no infidelity, i say go ahead and point it out. its something they need to see and address.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> if it works, id say go for it. just remember that if you do this to someone who is being cheated on, you will probably get a visceral reaction. it may be the truth, but you will have to anticipate their emotions if you want to get anywhere with them.
> 
> for someone who is being cheated on, i usually recommend that they detach. hence the 180. because in all honesty, they are hurting too much to see things clearly. they have to get to a point where they are no longer hurting before they can see things clearly.
> 
> but, for situations where there is no infidelity, i say go ahead and point it out. its something they need to see and address.


It is always painful to look at something we may have had a hand in, especially when we are hurting ourselves.

Being humble, and not rushing to defend ourselves, can help a lot in resolving marital issues.


----------



## jld

The OP seems understanding. Why don't you start your own thread now?


----------



## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> Because I know the answer... I was hoping active listening would help me change the answer.


So sorry, fc.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Stillkindofhopefull, did you maybe get a chance to read my post to you?


----------



## As'laDain

foolscotton, start a thread please. would like to comment, but i dont want to thread jack.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I listened to the story of Hosea yesterday. I felt like I could see the similarities!

She asked me this morning if I came back because I thought there was someone else. I told her, "no, I came back because this is where my family is."

She was so mad before church...she also worked last night and had about an hour of sleep so that never helps. Was getting upset with the girls...which can be routine for our lot. She didn't want to be late. 6 months ago it would have been reversed, I was always pushing to be on time.

She/we sat by her friend (who is now starting to annoy me)

When we were listening to a part about enduring and being a peacemaker, the "voice" that always tells me that it will be okay clearly seemed to ring in my head "do not divorce her"...might sound crazy I know.

I'm pretty sure she was getting the message to keep on keeping on because the other part of the message was about listening to the Holy Spirit...on a religious note, it reminds me of how the devil or a demon can appear as an angel of light...that can be kinda crazy for some im sure.

Anyway, after church she agreed to go to a place we used to go for lunch and for the first time in a long time she talked to me about work last night and once we got home I almost for a slight moment thought she might do me. Yeah, that was a brief moment into the wife I used to know. I miss that woman.

Nothing came of it, she said she wasn't ready but we laughed a few times and she shown me the Christmas card she made of the kids and told me to make a list of whoever I want to send one to.

Not a big step, but when you have no steps in such a long time, it seemed like one.

I am aware I need to be open to letting her go. She knows I'm not stopping her but that I love her and that I'm not leaving anytime soon.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Hobbes, I think I missed it. Was it a private message?


----------



## Blonde

foolscotton3 said:


> "Your desire," in that verse is not positive, its not saying she desires to be with him, its saying she has desire to rule him, but he will rule over her.


The passage does not say a wife will seek to rule over her H. It says the H will rule over the W.

“your [the wife's] desire will be for your husband and *he will *rule over you” Genesis 3:16
(God describing to the first woman what marriage will be like for her)​
I have studied this deeply and written an academic paper about it (Genesis 3:16 and Ephesians 5:24: A Woman’s Desire, A Man’s Rule, and A Wife’s Submission
 

A wife desires to please her husband, to be approved and accepted by him. And no, it is not really a positive. It is responsible for a great deal of oppression of women over the course of history


----------



## jld

Sounds like some progress, OP. Did you do the active listening?


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> A wife desires to please her husband, to be approved and accepted by him. And no, it is not really a positive. It is responsible for a great deal of oppression of women over the course of history


But I think for many women it is a fact. When you love a man, you want to give yourself to him. The key is making sure you have wisely chosen the man to whom you will be giving yourself.

And I know, hindsight is often 20/20.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

The MacArthur series did put it in a way that the wife was seeking power over the husband after she took authority regarding the incident in the garden.

I did try the listening. Something helped today for sure. If only for a little bit, it was nice to see.


----------



## jld

Please keep going with it. Humility, seeking to understand her, being gentle and patient with her. I really think it will make a difference.


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> The MacArthur series did put it in a way that the wife was seeking power over the husband after she took authority regarding the incident in the garden.


Macarthur views women as inferior. I didn't want to muddy the waters earlier but I find him among the most extreme in his theology of discounting and disrespecting the equal worth and dominion/authority of women.

Compare the actual words of God about who God gives dominion/authority in Genesis 1:26-28 with Macarthur's claim here:



> “man was created in the moral, mental, and spiritual image of God. He was also uniquely created to bear the image of God as a ruler… Adam was created first… Thus the man was given the dominion and authority over God’s created world and is by that fact the glory of God…."


Male rule over women happened as a consequence of the FALL in Genesis 3:16 and is not God's will for a redeemed M


----------



## Chaparral

Blonde said:


> Some people see through "cheater colored glasses" because they are projecting their own experiences onto others.
> 
> You and I, we never cheated so we presume innocence unless there is evidence to the contrary


I think those that have been here awhile are simply seeing the same redfags with the same results over and over.

BTW, now she's asking if he thinks she's cheating.

I'm wondering if your experience has made you anti male. How did your husband force you to mow the lawn?


----------



## Blonde

Chaparral said:


> How did your husband force you to mow the lawn?


He said that it bothered his asthma, so I did it out of love and concern. 

Then after 16 years, when we moved to the country and had a riding lawn mower, suddenly asthma was no longer a problem :scratchhead:

When I put down the snow shovel permanently after reading *Boundaries in Marriage* (and revved the car up high and plowed through it as needed), he bought himself a snow blower.


----------



## Blonde

Chaparral said:


> I'm wondering if your experience has made you anti male.


When I read something like that, I immediately think "projection" so back at you Chap, I wonder if your experiences have made you anti-female?

As for my experiences, I love my sons equally to my daughters and try to be a great mother, but I'll never marry again if anything happens to this M. IME M has not been what I thought it would be...


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

After sleeping today she was back to her former self 

Said again that if she was always nice to me, like she'd like to be, I'd think things were fine and they aren't fine.

I told her if she acted nice like she'd like to, we might actually have a better chance at a better ending (something like that).

I told her initially, that if she ever felt up to it, i could really use some time with her, trying to make light of it and working off of her mood before she went to sleep.

She told me that it's all I ever want, that I don't want "her"...I tried to keep my composure but I reminded her it has been almost SIX months...then I tried to drop the subject.

I brought up her friend basically taking my place and got the "I cant beleive you just said that" routine. That she finally has a friend, and that she usually doesn't because she is a SAHM... Again, that I work hard for her to be able to be.

Couldn't win for losing so I tried to keep my composure and came to my folks for early Christmas while she took the girls to her church meeting.

I swear it felt like I just saw a missing person earlier today and then I lost her again.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Oh, when we were talking about her rarely having friends her first reason why was blamed "usually because of guys in her life" which means primarily her first husband, who did keep her more isolated from family and friends.

That clued me in again to things having more to do with her past than anything done in her present. And that she always has someone else to blame.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: I plan to go back home...I doubt she will like it. Advice please.*



Blonde said:


> When I read something like that, I immediately think "projection" so back at you Chap, I wonder if your experiences have made you anti-female?
> 
> As for my experiences, I love my sons equally to my daughters and try to be a great mother, but I'll never marry again if anything happens to this M. IME M has not been what I thought it would be...


Blonde :

You proved chaps point in this post.

Just because your H has under delivered doesn't mean the institution of marriage itself under delivers. 

Your experiences have not made you anti male, but it definitely skewed your views toward husbands in general.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: I plan to go back home...I doubt she will like it. Advice please.*



Stillkindofhopefull said:


> After sleeping today she was back to her former self
> 
> Said again that if she was always nice to me, like she'd like to be, I'd think things were fine and they aren't fine.
> 
> I told her if she acted nice like she'd like to, we might actually have a better chance at a better ending (something like that).
> 
> I told her initially, that if she ever felt up to it, i could really use some time with her, trying to make light of it and working off of her mood before she went to sleep.
> 
> She told me that it's all I ever want, that I don't want "her"...I tried to keep my composure but I reminded her it has been almost SIX months...then I tried to drop the subject.
> 
> I brought up her friend basically taking my place and got the "I cant beleive you just said that" routine. That she finally has a friend, and that she usually doesn't because she is a SAHM... Again, that I work hard for her to be able to be.
> 
> Couldn't win for losing so I tried to keep my composure and came to my folks for early Christmas while she took the girls to her church meeting.
> 
> I swear it felt like I just saw a missing person earlier today and then I lost her again.


Because you still aren't listening. 

You're still trying to get your point across. 

Do you want to lead this thing? Then put your opinions down, and listen to her.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

How do I get the conversation started?

She isn't a talker. At least to me, for now.

If I wanted to leave I have plenty of reasons. Most that know what is going on don't know why I stay. Sometimes I wonder that myself but I really love my life when I'm home and my wife regardless of how she acts. I just need to learn to react better. 

I know I'll be okay in the end, if she does leave me. I'd still rather just save my marriage.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

You seriously tried to get sex in this situation? Oh wow.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

And in the way of a poor little puppy. If you're ever up to it.... Please ma'am. It's been six months....sniff sniff. Ya that'll work.


----------



## farsidejunky

"Wife, I know I have made mistakes. Sometimes I am a big, dumb guy. But I can't start to turn us around unless I understand. Please help me understand."

Then when she starts talking, encourage the dialogue by repeating and/or paraphrasing her words, followed by open ended questions.

"Help me understand" needs to be your go-to statement. No defensiveness. Let her get it out.

ETA: And FFS stop initiating sex. It will come. Be patient.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: I plan to go back home...I doubt she will like it. Advice please.*



WorkingOnMe said:


> And in the way of a poor little puppy. If you're ever up to it.... Please ma'am. It's been six months....sniff sniff. Ya that'll work.


Read this several times, OP. WOM nailed this.


----------



## farsidejunky

Sorry OP, I meant LEAD, not LEAVE. Voice recognition is notn100%.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Heck, I put it out there. I didn't gravel. I didn't beg. Maybe it was too soon. I'm getting wore out trying to figure the right thing to say at the right time. I'm not having sex with anyone but her and I'm not having sex with her. 

She was getting undressed when i came in after lunch and that was all it took. I tried hard not to go back in there and just jump on her. I also didn't "handle things" on the off chance she'd be in a good mood when she got up.

At some point she needs reminded she is still my wife. She doesn't get it. I know most people think I don't get it, and I'm trying legitimately to understand.

This is how an EA can start when someone comes in at the wrong time/weak moment after one spouse keeps getting rejected by another.

With that said, there isn't anyone even close to that in my life. I just can see how some happen (after reading about so many situations on here).


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Sooo...saying "wife, I love you...very much...but really, I need you to give it up"...that wouldn't be a winning comment?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Oh, and what happens when you get tired of constantly walking on egg shells?

I know...time to leave. I'm trying to avoid that. I love this family.

I need to finish MMSLP.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: I plan to go back home...I doubt she will like it. Advice please.*



Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Oh, and what happens when you get tired of constantly walking on egg shells?
> 
> I know...time to leave. I'm trying to avoid that. I love this family.
> 
> I need to finish MMSLP.


OP, this will either work or it wont. 

And your comment about walking on egg shells? Whiny, victim speak.

Knock it off.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I get it. Dumb move. I'm on it.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> After sleeping today she was back to her former self
> 
> Said again that if she was always nice to me, like she'd like to be, I'd think things were fine and they aren't fine. That would've been a good chance to do some active listening. She would have shared more from her heart. That sort of sharing increases intimacy.
> 
> I told her if she acted nice like she'd like to, we might actually have a better chance at a better ending (something like that).Reactive. Apologize for this. Sincerely. It will help get things back on track.
> 
> I told her initially, that if she ever felt up to it, i could really use some time with her, trying to make light of it and working off of her mood before she went to sleep. Perceived as selfish. Not helpful to getting you where you want to go.
> 
> She told me that it's all I ever want, that I don't want "her"...I tried to keep my composure but I reminded her it has been almost SIX months...then I tried to drop the subject. Trying to have the last, defensive word will shut her down. Will not build intimacy.
> 
> I brought up her friend basically taking my place and got the "I cant beleive you just said that" routine. That she finally has a friend, and that she usually doesn't because she is a SAHM... Again, that I work hard for her to be able to be. I thought she was a nurse working nights?
> 
> Couldn't win for losing so I tried to keep my composure and came to my folks for early Christmas while she took the girls to her church meeting.
> 
> I swear it felt like I just saw a missing person earlier today and then I lost her again.


There is a lot of hope for turning your marriage around. But you have to change your attitude.

You have to be humble, OP. You have to listen, as far told you. Active listening could help you out a lot. And when you feel yourself getting defensive, and want to react by pointing out her shortcomings, or by defending yourself, make yourself say, "Please help me understand." And then listen patiently and calmly while she speaks.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Regarding the porn... You know, there was a time before we got married that I brought it up. I told her basically my views on it...that I don't look at it a lot but that I have, and that when I do it is basically amateur stuff...dares and whatnot that people put up about themselves. 

She didn't seem to make a stand about it one way or another at the time. 

But it did hurt her very much once I told her 6 months ago.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Good advice Lila and JLD...others too! I just went back and re-read them.

I won't commit infidelity. Just won't. This is my wife. granted, many have probably said the very same thing...shortly before they did, but she considered it adultery for the porn I looked at...I will guard my heart closer.

She is a SAHM but now that my son is older she can return to working more often and needs the break from the house and makes really good money...which she'll need if she wants to divorce me...so yeah, she works more now for sure. :-/


----------



## jld

When are you going to apologize for this afternoon?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

...putting up with her BS for so long?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

And for telling her if she acted nice like she'd like to we might be in a better place. :-D

Pretty sure that was it.


----------



## jld

You are standing in the way of winning back your wife, OP.


----------



## jld

Have you thought about inviting her here?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I misread the question, I thought inwas asking what I was going to apologize for, not when. Sorry.

I'm really not trying to...I really am looking into the active listening more.

I get irritated at times, this whole thing feels surreal. I'm usually the decision maker. Usually the advice giver. Certainly never saw myself in this position but most people don't. 

I really do want to do what it takes to see this through and win my wife back. 

If there truly are no other secrets...no other deeper levels that touch infidelity on her part, I will do whatever it takes.

This is my thinking right now on an upcoming situation...she had turned in some divorce ppw, about 1/3 of it. Nothing filed but she took that step.

I lucked out apparently and my attorney is the one she wanted because he apparently is the best at winning family matters.

1. That speaks something about her intentions.
- on a side note, I was the one to tell her to contact an attorney before I left last month. She found out i already contacted him...truth is, after we had our biggest fight yet, it made me nervous, we had never fought like that before and even though i didn't lay a hand on her, she pushed me out of the way of a door I was standing in. I was afraid that scared her and that in return scared me...I'm not that kind of man. So I wanted advice. This was all new to me.

The attorney was an indirect old friend, I taught his kids martial arts and had used him early in my business career. He also opened an office near my business so it was basically luck.

Anyway, if she seeks a divorce that I don't want, I will seek as much custody as i possibly can. I don't want to hurt her but at that point, it won't be personal...it will be about my son. My attorney felt I had a solid enough reputation and wherewithal to attempt what I want. I just don't see the point in accepting a divorce I don't want and lose half the time in my son's life in the process.

I don't want to expect failure but I also have to be aware of reality, yes?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde, where did you pull that MacArthur quote from?


----------



## jld

There's no reason you cannot get your marriage back on track, OP. We do not need to talk about divorce anymore. After reading your account of this afternoon, there is just no need to be divorcing.

You two love each other. Build on that love.

When are you going to apologize, and ask again if she will share her fear of being nice to you with you? Has she left for work already?

You do understand that she was sharing a part of her heart with you when she volunteered that? That she was being vulnerable with you?


----------



## farsidejunky

OP, I hear too much pride and too little humility. This process is a non-starter until you accept it.


----------



## Blonde

Blossom Leigh said:


> Blonde, where did you pull that MacArthur quote from?


There's a link to the source with the quote


----------



## Nucking Futs

OP, have you investigated to rule out an affair? This thread is full of red flags, and if there is a third party in your marriage you are receiving the wrong advice.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Thanks for the reply!

I wrote: 

_"Please, please, google and read "Toxic parents pdf free". I hope it will open your eyes. Your wife is a toxic parent to your son. He is afraid of her and that's why he's having anxiety, asking you if she'll be there. And YOU are a toxic parent for enabling her instead of protecting her.

If you want to do what is best for your son, you ought to put him first! That means you and your son should move out and you should ensure your son won't have to see her again! You also ought to get your son into counselling. He's depending on you to protect him, and at the moment you're not protecting him! You're sacrificing his well-being for your own benefit (i.e. your relationship with your wife).

You have no common kids with your wife. She's abusive and toxic to your son. Why are you still with your wife? Get out, for your own sake, and if you don't care about that, for the sake of your son! Or you'll be condemning your son to more and more psychological problems, and one day he'll realise you were selfish and didn't protect him, even though you could, and he'll strongly resent you for it.

Please, if you want to talk more about this, let us know and we can. But I implore you to save your son!"_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> There's a link to the source with the quote


Just as I suspected. It is unwise to cherry pick MacArthur. That concept you quoted from one of his books is immersed within a very intense concept of what man is to do with that role and how he is to treat women.

Husbands, Love Your Wives (Ephesians 5:25-33) Joh…: http://youtu.be/XToVaeMMyG4

From the sermon: (then after he goes into what this love is to look like.. so he can't be cherry picked)

The husband’s command is very clear. It’s a single command. Husbands, love your wives. Love your wives. That is the command. *There is no command to take authority over your wife. That’s not the command. That is not the command. Is the husband the head? Absolutely he’s the head. We saw that, didn’t we, in 1 Corinthians 11, the husband is the head of the wife, Christ is the head of the man, God is the head of Christ. But the command is not to take authority. It doesn’t say a word about that. It doesn’t say take authority. It doesn’t say rule over your wife. It doesn’t say order her around. It doesn’t say command her. It doesn’t say subjugate her, subject her. It doesn’t say dominate her. *It says love your wives…love your wives. And the word for love is from the verb*agapao*which is the most intense, most divine, most magnanimous, most sacrificial, most humble kind of love. It’s the love of the will. There are other words for love in the Greek language. There’s the word*eros*from which you get erotic, that’s a sexual kind of love. There’s the word*phileo, the verb*phileo*which is the word that is in the word Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love, it means that, that kind of a normal, human affection. There is even a word for family love and that word is used when the Apostle Paul writes to Timothy and says that people in the society, the worldly society have lost their natural affection. That is their family love. So there are words for family love, and erotic love, and brotherly love. But this is the word for the love of the will. This is the word that is the most magnanimous, the most far-reaching, and the most intentional. This is…this is a word for love that is not defined by the solicitation of the one loved. This is the love of the will. This is loving because it is right to love, loving because you will to love. It doesn’t mean the person is not attractive, but this word is defined as a word that expresses one’s intentionality.

This is how we are to love because we determine to love, because we will to love. This is, of course, defined for us as the kind of love the Lord has for His church. He does not love us because we are lovable. He did not save us because we were lovable. He didn’t save you and not somebody else down the street from you because you were more lovable than the person down the street. You might have picked your life partner because that person was more lovable in your judgment than the other people you knew. That is not how God chose you. He predetermined by His own will to set His love on you and to then spend His love relentlessly on you forever and ever and ever. And it is that kind of love that a husband is to set upon the woman that he takes as his wife.


----------



## Blonde

Blossom Leigh said:


> Just as I suspected. It is unwise to cherry pick MacArthur. That concept you quoted from one of his books is immersed within a very intense concept of what man is to do with that role and how he is to treat women.
> 
> Husbands, Love Your Wives (Ephesians 5:25-33) Joh…: http://youtu.be/XToVaeMMyG4
> 
> From the sermon: (then after he goes into what this love is to look like.. so he can't be cherry picked)


He said *only men* are in the moral, mental and spiritual image of God and *only men* are given rulership/dominion by God. 

That directly contradicts what God says in Genesis 1:26-28.

I owned the 1994 version of that book and reading that very passage was a watershed moment for me. 

Surprises me that you go for such woman hating theology BL. You are a *very* strong woman and they would brand you a Jezebel. A woman leading is anathema.


----------



## As'laDain

And yet Deborah was a judge of israel. God will appoint a woman charge if there is no qualified man around. I have to believe that if the woman be the qualified one, God would want her to lead until such a time as the man studies to show himself approved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Not a bad start to today. Talked about Christmas at her parent's house. Didn't exactly confirm she wants me to come but not a bad conversation.

I'm not trying to be prideful Farside, I'm just starting to post what I'm thinking so I can get it out without actually saying it to her. 

Besides, sometimes it leads to kick in the bit that i need.

The struggle is trying to balance strength which can look like indifference, and compassion which can come across weak.

And then there's the flat out weakness...that still gets me from time to time.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Hobbes, I think that was for the other poster on here who started his own thread. My son is our son together.

The other poster had a son whose stepmom caused him to wet himself when she came around from what I recall. 

Is that what youbl were referring to?

On the topic of infidelity, I did look into phone bills, checked on some numbers. It wasn't thorough but I got to the point that if she was this upset about is being in an adulterous affair which is seemingly ending our marriage...if she were having an affair...that would be so crazy as to approach a real mental condition. I would be done at that point either way. At least that is how I feel now. 

She went to the church meeting last night in place of my family's early Christmas...we are going to have another one but that was for my brothers family. She took the girls so I don't think she is setting up time for being involved with someone there. And again, if she were...at this point it would be more disturbing regarding her thought process that life shattering for me. 

I learned a long time ago that if someone wants to cheat, they will.

It still gets me every now and then...the thought of it...but not nearly as much as it did in the beginning.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Hobbes, I think that was for the other poster on here who started his own thread. My son is our son together.
> 
> The other poster had a son whose stepmom caused him to wet himself when she came around from what I recall.
> 
> Is that what youbl were referring to?
> 
> On the topic of infidelity, I did look into phone bills, checked on some numbers. It wasn't thorough but I got to the point that if she was this upset about is being in an adulterous affair which is seemingly ending our marriage...if she were having an affair...that would be so crazy as to approach a real mental condition. I would be done at that point either way. At least that is how I feel now.
> 
> She went to the church meeting last night in place of my family's early Christmas...we are going to have another one but that was for my brothers family. She took the girls so I don't think she is setting up time for being involved with someone there. And again, if she were...at this point it would be more disturbing regarding her thought process that life shattering for me.
> 
> I learned a long time ago that if someone wants to cheat, they will.
> 
> It still gets me every now and then...the thought of it...but not nearly as much as it did in the beginning.


I believe you should do a thorough enough investigation to rule out an affair. You are not acting correctly if this is an affair, and there are enough signs to warrant the investigation.

Think of it like going to the doctor. Your symptoms could be several things, most benign but one could be deadly. Since only one possibility could kill you, do you play the odds and decide you'll blow that possibility off, or do you go along with the doctor when he says it's unlikely but he needs to run some tests to rule it out.

Your wife is on the edge. You need to make sure that there isn't someone else trying to pull her over the edge while you try to coax her to step away from it.

Instructions for investigation here.


----------



## jld

jld said:


> When are you going to apologize for this afternoon?


I think a sincere apology would soften her heart towards you. My goal is her opening her heart to you, and putting it safely into your care. 

But, OP, it will only happen when you have earned her trust!


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

My apologies, you're right!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> He said *only men* are in the moral, mental and spiritual image of God and *only men* are given rulership/dominion by God.
> 
> That directly contradicts what God says in Genesis 1:26-28.
> 
> I owned the 1994 version of that book and reading that very passage was a watershed moment for me.
> 
> Surprises me that you go for such woman hating theology BL. You are a *very* strong woman and they would brand you a Jezebel. A woman leading is anathema.


Honey, I believe you need to read that whole book again. You are missing his point totally. And MacArthur does NOT believe women are inferior. He also has said it MANY times in MANY sermons INCLUDING the book you are cherry picking that man and women are CO-RULERS. So, thus your cherry picking is inaccurate my dear. He was referring you BACK to chapter one, which explains what I have just given you as his attitude. Good luck in piecing it together. That is not women hating theology. Unbelievable. Yes, I am a very strong woman, one that can step in when my husband fails and can step back again when he recovers. So, thus, I am not a Jezebel, nor would MacArthur label me as such.


----------



## Blonde

Blossom Leigh,
This discussion is a distraction to this thread. If you want to continue, how about posting a thread on the Spirituality or Politics and Religion section of TAM? .

I spent years examining, praying, thinking, studying, and seeking regarding these matters. That book by John Macarthur got me started. I ordered the book myself because I respected him. 

Here is a pretty thorough sermon of his views of male and female. The Role of the Godly Woman I read it and go "Ugh, thank GOD I am free of this bondage. THANK GOD!!!" I'm no nube on this issue BL, and I'm never going back.

Again, I'd be happy to discuss further if you please, but let's not do so on this thread.


----------



## U.E. McGill

I love how people cherry pick from the bible but neglect good passages that espouse things like "if you're a slave honor your master" or "touching a woman who is unclean from menses". 

You know. Convenience.


----------



## U.E. McGill

Your wife has abandoned this marriage and Jesus h. Christ has nothing to do with it. Don't let her bullshyte you.


----------



## Blonde

BL, Please don't call me "darlin" I find it disrespectful and condescending.

When you ignore a preacher contradicting scripture and have a house slave agenda you collect male groupies who agree with you that women should sit down shut up and stay on the plantation- powerless, submissive, and meek.

Thanks fc for your chivalry, but "feminist" is not a bad word IMO. Jesus is the original feminist. His first apostle post resurrection is female. St. Mary Magdalene: How the Apostle to the Apostles Subverts Patriarchy | Millennial


Sorry for the tangent OP. Hopefully you have and role model for your son more respect than right wing fundamentalists (both male and female ) have for women.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

The only thing I could see the potential of is her having done something she now regrets and it is eating at her...besides marrying me which I'll never believe was truly a mistake.

There are red flags, I've looked at them all and still at times do.

But there are things that oppose them that i think win out in the end. She explains, whenever I've asked, what she did. There are no notably glowing says since all this occurred...where she is excited/happy/confident with her other life.

She is aware of the effect of something like that and what it would do in court regarding custody. She went through it once.

She did get in good shape when training for the half marathon.

I ran it with her. We met up and started it together and met up at the end. Her training was in our neighborhood.

She could have taken it from someone in our neighborhood I suppose but she did always look like she ran what she said she did.

It's just not the girl I know...which I'm see many have said in the past.

She left out counselor but went to our church's pastor in their place.

That counselor and our pastor are very close friends.

I can't rule it out 100%. The thought makes me sick to my stomach.

I still tend to think it deals more from her past hurts on top of her current hurts, possible depression mixed in and the regret that she's never had much of a life outside of being with a man.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Oh, and I have sincerely apologized a good few times. I think anymore is overkill at this point.

What's the general consensus on leaving nice but not too mushy notes?

I tend to think she needs consistent love but not weak attempts at winning her back...so like, saying nice things and expecting nothing in return.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

No notes.


----------



## As'laDain

No notes. Don't do it. It's not the time for love notes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> No notes. Don't do it. It's not the time for love notes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why not?

I think this man needs very much to show some love to this woman.

OP, I am talking about a sincere apology from yesterday, followed by active listening. Has there been one in the last 24 hours?

You are not going to get healthier without humility. You need a contrite heart. Without that, she is going to leave you.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Okay...so no MORE notes. :-/

I left one today. Short, nice...I can knock it off.

Here is something else...went back on FB over the weekend. Took it off my phone so I can't access it easily.
Anyway, I logged on today and the first thing that popped up was that she "liked" the status of the xgf/friend that she got upset with me texting. The post was a quote that said "when a person show you who they are, believe them." Wasn't sure what to make of that...kinda glad she clicked like on something of hers...they became friends at my request a long time ago. Idk if they have ever talked or not or maybe it was purely just a "I like that" gesture. Maybe it was passive aggressive? Anyway, just caught me off guard.

Then she posted a meme about ministering to others...part of me thought..."hmmm...maybe you could be that way with me." The other was about Christmas and not being ashamed of her faith. 
At least they weren't bitter or sad or anything. 

Not a big deal really, just thought I'd share.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Just caught your post after my post JLD


----------



## jld

Please don't focus on what she's doing for you. Please focus on reaching her heart by what you are doing for her. Namely, active listening. Seeking to understand her. We women receive that as love.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

It could very well be. I wouldn't rule out anything about that situation and won't look too much into either. 

I'm not really focused on what she could do for me...I post it because I do think it but I dont expect her to do anything. It helps to expect less but still be the person i am. It is hard to 180 at this point being back home but I've learned a lot since last time I lived there and no what triggers not to push...yesterday was a good reminder.

I'm getting my confidence back. I really don't have anything to hide at this point.

One thing I can honestly say right now is that I dont look at the things that hurt her. I don't talk/text/email anyone...TAM is where I vent and learn, thanks to you guys...I only think of her when I do get that urge...doing things we normally do, which now I miss very much...all in all...I feel a lot healthier and a lot more honest inside and out.

It's good to be able to feel that way. For a long time, from the examples of young married couples in my life...Christian and non, it just seemed like people claimed one life and lived another...I think it became easier for me to do the same thing.

For now, I do have some hope but I also have a healthy grasp of reality knowing that the odds are still against us.

People have come through harder times. If anyone can, I'm going to believe we can.


----------



## jld

Transparency is critical. Be as honest and open as possible with her.


----------



## jld

The odds are not against you. Your pride is what is in your way.

Please consider reaching out to her in the ways I have suggested. She needs her husband's love, OP.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> *Why not?*
> 
> I think this man needs very much to show some love to this woman.
> 
> OP, I am talking about a sincere apology from yesterday, followed by active listening. Has there been one in the last 24 hours?
> 
> You are not going to get healthier without humility. You need a contrite heart. Without that, she is going to leave you.


he needs to stop appearing weak, and she will misinterpret it as a lame attempt to get sex. 

he needs a little more work on being honest, stable, secure, and transparent before trying to woo her.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> he needs to stop appearing weak, and she will misinterpret it as a lame attempt to get sex.
> 
> *he needs a little more work on being honest, stable, secure, and transparent before trying to woo her.*


I agree with the bolded. My pushing him to be humble is an effort in that direction.

OP, do you acknowledge your shortcomings to your wife? Without quickly pointing out hers?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I have.

Transparency is difficult without also showing weakness.

Stability was hard after she shook my whole foundation. Wasn't ready for that but it is improving, along with my security. That one still can take a hit but is overall much better id like to think.


----------



## jld

Don't think about weakness. Think about setting pride aside, and just being transparent and vulnerable. 

A man's sincere vulnerability, just putting his heart in front of his wife, is a beautiful, noble thing. 

You just have to have the right motives. Asking her to meet your needs is not the right motives, not right now.

Please seek to understand her. Please reach out to her. Help her open herself to you. Make it safe for her to do so.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

She is back to wearing headphones in the house. Not as antisocial but not a good sign. Of course her music is Christian I'm sure. Moments like this is when I get reminded that this is her only feasible exit strategy in her mind, but still just an exit strategy. 

The decent news is, at this point it doesn't hurt nearly as much. It is more of a sad irritant than a frustrating crisis moment.

There is something more to her...I still don't think infidelity...although I've heard of crazier...but I'm going to believe that aspect because I choose to based on all the circumstantial evidence and the woman I used to know. 

I still wonder if there could have been some kind of crack...mentally...something clicked that shouldn't have and this is al very real and justifiable to her? There is one other person in her family that went through something seemingly similar but I forget the details. If so, I would love her through that. If there were someone else, I'll be done when that time comes or is revealed and my son and I will stay together even if it costs me everything I have. I feel for those girls. But still...I'm not at the point anyway. Just another "moment" in this phase...whatever this phase is.


----------



## jld

Why do you keep looking at her? Look at _yourself._


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm not real sure what that means. 

I'm well aware of my faults and what I'm improving on. 

This is where I post things that are going on these days and that is what is going on tonight. 

Definitely not a night for conversation so there is no active listening. When it does come about, I'm looking forward to it but I know better than to try to start it during moments like these. I didn't before, so that is progress.


----------



## jld

What acts of service does she appreciate? Could you clean up the kitchen for her tonight or put some laundry in?

You want to offer love to her in a way that she will receive it as love.

What I meant in my last post is that you shouldn't look at what is wrong with _her; _ you should look at what _you_ have done or not done in the marriage that could make it better. 

You are the person you have the most influence over. Use it to the advantage of your marriage!


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

That makes sense.

The one thing she wanted more of, was time.

For the past 6 months i have had it to give.

I'm good with cleaning, taking care of the kids, etc.


----------



## jld

All the advice I give is meant to soften her heart. She may not be willing to talk to you right now, but she will notice the kind things you do for her . . . and your not requiring acknowledgment of them will make an impression on her.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Got it. That makes more sense now for where you are coming from. Thanks!


----------



## jld

Please come back later and tell us the kind things you did for her. You can inspire us all to some acts of service for our spouses.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

She is sleeping on the couch. My act of kindness at this point is leaving her alone and not asking her why she is doing that. I've seen this part of the story before, I know how asking that works out in the end. 
Tonight I'm just leaving it alone and being thankful that I'm at home with my son and that the girls are glad I'm back.


----------



## jld

Do you think she would have been okay with your caressing her hair, or giving her a kiss on the forehead? How about offering her a blanket? 

I am guessing you do not want to offer her the bed? I know that is not recommended here. 

I don't know. I am just trying to think of what could speak love to her. 

I am really concerned she is checking out. I would like to see more urgency on your part to making her feel loved and respected. I think without some proactivity, you may lose her.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I have been proactive since the day this all came to light. To the point that it made matters worse. I'm trying now to do things that when she looks back, she can't help but say i tried because I've tried very hard.

I'm going to ask her sister about what happened to the aunt of hers that had some kind of breakdown.

I got up to get something to eat. I walked past her "sleeping" on the couch and just the countenance on her face almost looked mad. And on the floor in front of her was a book and her big Bible.

I don't think she is using her faith as a front...well...I take that back...I do think she is but I don't think she sees it yet.

It almost gives me comfort still when I see that near her...she went to Walmart to get a dress for one of our girls for a presentation tomorrow (she has been saying she needed to get one since this weekend). She was gone long enough to make me wonder but not so long it was obvious...I stayed out about as long last night when I went to Walmart for milk becuase I posted on here a couple times.

Had she not been reading the Bible (apparently) I would have been more concerned. If that ever turned out to be a rouse...well at least that would give me clarity but I still don't think it is.

I think she sees me at the enemy now though. I was always the one there for her (that I knew of) when she was married before. We talked...well maybe 3-4 times in 10 years, including when she left him the first time after hitting her while holding her daughter. I was always the "good guy". I didn't think much of it at the time. I listen and care about a lot of people's situation she when she first had problems in her marriage I just felt glad she thought enough of me to confide in me. I loved her way back then but was so accustomed to my friend role that I didn't look past it. I just liked being in her presence.

Flash forward to now...I think she thinks she finally gave into me...the good guy...and expected life to be perfect...upon finding out that it still wasn't perfect, I'm starting to think she has built up resentment towards me for "me making her feel like that" which helped her in the end have confidence in filing for divorce. 

She told me that part in counseling...that I made her feel safe enough to finally file.

She did that whole phase though without my knowledge. I hadn't seen or spoken to her since she came to me about 5 years prior. She just looked me up on FB and saw my perfect FB life and decided I was her answer.

This is all coming clearer to me as i write this.

I, apparently, set her up to get the divorce that she now regrets but can do nothing about.

She has re-written our history...and glosses over her past and hates herself for it.

Man...I think I'm right.

The problem is, I did love her back then, I do love her now...she didn't back then and realized she still doesn't now.

But...we have a family and a son between and the reality of it all, if I'm right, doesn't leave many good options.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Man, this makes me want to get her up and talk to her...that would go over like a lead balloon so I won't. But I sure want to.

I will let it go for now but that makes as much sense as anything so far.


----------



## Chaparral

This is all about biology. From what your posting, your just driving a bigger wedge as fast as you can.

Read MMSLP. The things about you that attracted her to you have totally disappeared. You don't attract her, you repulse her. Manning up isn't about being an a$$hole its about being a male. Turning into a maid or butler will crush what littles left of your marriage.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

We both are at fault but I totally acknowledge mine. I'm fixing it.

I'm also back into MMSLP which was spot on this morning.

Nights are always the hardest and last night was no different. I'm glad I didn't approach her last night. 

She was in a better mood this morning. 

Physically, for my age, I'm in good shape. I've maxed out the military fitness test every time for the last 3 years. I never have had abs...just a flatter, toned stomach. I know she likes abs so I will focus on that more.

Finances are where I lost more alpha. I'm at a fraction of what I used to be but working on that every day. 

Good advice from both of you this morning, thanks!


----------



## jld

It is not a question of physical attraction. She needs to be emotionally attracted to him. And he has all kinds of control over that.


----------



## Chaparral

jld said:


> It is not a question of physical attraction. She needs to be emotionally attracted to him. And he has all kinds of control over that.


What you're suggesting sounds like Marriage Builders plan A. I've been here awhile and I haven't seen that work yet. Just the opposite as a matter of fact.

He's already acting like whipped puppy and that disgusts her. She told him to leave and he did. Its been downhill from there. If she were living her religion she wouldn't be acting anything like she is.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: I plan to go back home...I doubt she will like it. Advice please.*



Chaparral said:


> What you're suggesting sounds like Marriage Builders plan A. I've been here awhile and I haven't seen that work yet. Just the opposite as a matter of fact.


It worked in my marriage, Chap. As a matter of fact, that was the only thing that really made it great again.


----------



## Kolors

When I was dealing with my ex, I always wanted to talk at night and it always devolved into drama. He's right, hit the gym when the kids hit the bed. It really helped me get a clear head and kept space between us so I wouldn't do more stupid beta "let's talk" crap. 

That and it totally wore me out so I slept better than I had in months.


----------



## Kolors

The first time I ran 5k was at the gym avoiding a fight with the ex! It's amazing what renewed focus does for the soul.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Agreed. I will start doing that. Did a Zumba class tonight...our business hosted it so I thought I'd give it a shot. 

I usually go to the gym in the mornings but will trade it off for night workouts for a while.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Zumba?


----------



## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> It wouldn't hurt if you were *humble and honest *with why you are going at night, and why this new regiment is helping you control the urges to push for what you want, rather than what she needs.


:iagree:


----------



## Chaparral

foolscotton3 said:


> Let her know where you will be, I know this is "building on me" time, but its only because you are waiting on her for "building on us." Be accessible at all times, keep your phone on or near you at the gym, or fitness classes. Wives do become anxious when husbands change their fitness routines, most of the "is he cheating," blogs see sudden changes in routine and scheduled time at the gym as a red flag.
> 
> It wouldn't hurt if you were humble and honest with why you are going at night, and why this new regiment is helping you control the urges to push for what you want, rather than what she needs.


I think the MAP plan would disagree with this. Your already dancing to her tune. She separated from you. She didn't talk to you about going to the game. She needs to think you believe you and your son will be fine without her.

You're definitely not going to miss supper are you?

Read lonelyhusband's thread. His wife turned on him when the economy hit the fan and he started making less money.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I'll check it out. 

Last night wasn't horrible. She was a little more social but was still going to sleep on the couch. I ended up taking the couch because she works tonight and I didn't want her to sleep on the couch two nights in a row then work a night shift. Right now she can already be moody enough when she is low on sleep from a regular shift so i did it for her but also for the rest of the family and so wouldn't be able to paint a picture of hardship with me being home.

This morning I woke up and either she blocked me from FB or deactivated her account again. I had tagged her in a photo of one of the girls and the Zumba instructor. Wasn't going to but I thought not tagging her was just as rude. 

That is sad and irritating but I don't lose as much sleep as I used to.

I came to the gym and left some milk on her nightstand for my son if he wakes up while I'm gone. I always do that but for the first time in a long time she acknowledged it and said thanks. 

She also has another new book about God helping through suffering and pain. That hurts me for her. We can't find a decent level of communication...I think we make a little step forward and she blocks me from FB. I think we took another step back and she seems slightly more appreciative.


----------



## Chaparral

Yoou tryi g to parse every move and action. Stop it. Be you own normal self. This isn't about you.

Have you finished Mmslp?

She knows you're watching her like a hawk waiting for bread crumbs. How beta is that? How attractive is that?

If she thinks she has cheated on an abusive husband has she repented? Has she asked his forgiveness? Is it possible she made up the abuse stories?

How often does she see her ex? How often do his daughters see him?


----------



## jld

Chap, his issues are deeper than MMSLP can address. He needs a serious marriage book. A book from John Gottman was brought to my attention yesterday. 7 Principles for making marriage work, I think it is called. That might help.

OP, can you keep telling us all the loving, empathetic things you are doing to make deposits into your wife's emotional bank account? That is really where your emphasis needs to be: making those deposits.


----------



## U.E. McGill

jld said:


> Chap, his issues are deeper than MMSLP can address. He needs a serious marriage book. A book from John Gottman was brought to my attention yesterday. 7 Principles for making marriage work, I think it is called. That might help.
> 
> 
> 
> OP, can you keep telling us all the loving, empathetic things you are doing to make deposits into your wife's emotional bank account? That is really where your emphasis needs to be: making those deposits.



I understand where your coming from JLD. But I think at this point she's gone. She's checked out. Showing her a loving kind face is only going to reinforce her resolve that her path is correct. She may or may not be a cheater, buts she's sure in a fog. 

The best course of action is for him not to dig his own marriage grave.


----------



## jld

U.E. McGill said:


> I understand where your coming from JLD. But I think at this point she's gone. She's checked out. Showing her a loving kind face is only going to reinforce her resolve that her path is correct. She may or may not be a cheater, buts she's sure in a fog.
> 
> The best course of action is for him not to dig his own marriage grave.


She responded the other day when he did active listening. But then he got selfish and tried to get sex. That set him back.

I reject the cheating idea. 

She does not feel loved. A woman who feels loved on a deep level cannot resist her husband. She is putty in his hands.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Re: her ex, she sees him once a week and every other weekend, or someone in his family. And at sporting events for the girls. 

I don't feel physical competition, I can win there and in the bedroom (or so it was swore) but history and her newfound regret of the divorce...it wasn't newfound, she has always struggled with it, I mean in conjunction with the scripture of late.

I'm not done with MMSLP but reading it every day. 

I agree I need to stop parsing things.

I do a little more on here just to give details to all trying to help. 

Today she texted me about the Zumba class and then followed it up with a phone call...the only reason I bring that up is because she hasn't texted for a miscellaneous reason in months.

She is going back to our pastor today to talk some more.

She has been notably more forgetful lately for bigger things...our daughters Christmas program yesterday and childcare for my son today. Nothing dangerous by any means and I was able to make the program and took care of keeping things smooth this morning.

I know it makes it easier on her for things like this morning...vs doing a 180 response and letting her deal with it. She dealt with it while I wasn't at home and I don't want any chaos for the kids.

Our middle child has been asking to sleep with her sister or in the living room lately. Her sister said she is scared. Not like our little firecracker. I can't help but to think it is related to the recent instability and I hate that. She and I are pretty close all in all.

That is what is going on for now.


----------



## jld

jld said:


> Chap, his issues are deeper than MMSLP can address. He needs a serious marriage book. A book from John Gottman was brought to my attention yesterday. 7 Principles for making marriage work, I think it is called. That might help.
> 
> OP, can you keep telling us all *the loving, empathetic things you are doing to make deposits into your wife's emotional bank account? That is really where your emphasis needs to be: making those deposits*.


Just wanted to stress that making those deposits could really help you.

Are you talking openly and honestly to the girls? Your honest talk could reassure them, help with their fears. 

You are an important figure in their life and I'm sure they don't want to lose you.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I felt that the actions like giving her the bed and taking care of issues she forgot about, like it wasn't any trouble (instead of making any kind of comment) were my way of showing her I'm there for her. 

Not bringing up issues that I used to feel warranted in bringing up is also a way to show her I'm paying attention.

I tell the girls I love them indirectly...in a way that they don't have to say it back if it is awkward for them but so that they still here me say it.

Having the younger daughter come with me last night was a big deal to her and we had fun and got ice cream afterwards. 

That's pretty much what I've done the past two days.


----------



## jld

Good. Just keep making those deposits.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

A friend said she looks like she had been crying again today when picking up one of the kids. 

I know she met with the pastor today.

She was in a less than good mood but I left it alone.

I never know when is a decent time to bring anything up...but if I don't and she won't...nothing can change. I don't even think she can file for divorce without information I have. That could be good but it could also be dragging out the inevitable.


----------



## jld

"You seemed sad today when you came home from your appt. with our minister. I wanted to comfort you, but I did not want you to feel disrespected or your privacy invaded in any way."

"Is there any way I can help? I would really like to. I care for you very much, even though sometimes I know it doesn't seem like it."


----------



## jld

She has to face you. She has to talk to you. I am sure that's with the minister told her.

Please make it easy for her, OP.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I have to admit, the more I read MMSLP the less of a chance I feel this can be restored. It is hard to see returning to a point where we actually kiss for 10 seconds. Not that I don't want to, it is just hard to see it right now. 

The reasons behind these problems can vary from losing Alpha in her eyes, to hurting her with unintentional comments...to issues that are deeper than anything that has to do with me.

She's going to the game this weekend with another girlfriend. Still hasn't brought it up aside from posting it on Facebook. I'm not planning to make an issue of it...I bought them for her. Technically she can do whatever she wants with them. Yes, I feel neutered by it. I feel like I want to give her the paperwork on our property that she needs to complete the divorce package. If I do, I'm forcing the issue...instigating it. If I dont, we don't talk as it is, and could just be prolonging the inevitable.

In the big picture, I can still see us making it. In the short term it is hard to refrain from telling her I still think she is selfish and cold when she starts pushing buttons. It is the truth, I do feel like she is.

My pastor last night told me to hang in there, that it went well. That was encouraging, her actions aren't. 

I read some of the posts on this site and see some of the things I did while things were fine...wanting to show her off,etc and I see from her perspective how it could have hurt more than I realized. I definitely didn't mean it to be demeaning or anything but some women really are put off by it.

Anyway, not giving up. Just posting while i had a few minutes.

The ups and downs of these things.

Working things out is worth the hardship. Keeping my family together is worth a lot more than hard times for now.


----------



## jld

You do not need MMSLP. That is a very superficial approach. You need something deep and heart-changing. 

Your wife's heart is hurting. If you cannot address that, the marriage will not be restored.


----------



## jld

What deposits are you going to make in her emotional bank account today?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> You do not need MMSLP. That is a very superficial approach. You need something deep and heart-changing.
> 
> Your wife's heart is hurting. If you cannot address that, the marriage will not be restored.


You are half right on this, JLD. 

MMSLP will help him become a better him regardless of what happens with his marriage. 

Do not discount what MMSLP has to say in that regard.

ETA: MMSLP does has some superficial changes in it. However, there are many that are far from it.


----------



## jld

Would you like to elaborate, far?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Would you like to elaborate, far?


*Dating and the game of seduction never stops
*The right mix of alpha and beta traits
* **** tests (I know you hate the term but it is completely relevant) and learning not only why but how to say "no"
*The MAP being the jump off point, or undergrad crash course, for self improvement
*Removing the wife as the focal point of a husband's happiness


----------



## jld

Well, I have not read the book, only skimmed it. But I think marriage is a lot more than just attracting a woman. It is so much more than the physical.

I would encourage men to look at their characters. I think deep character work could do a lot to restore a marriage.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Well, I have not read the book, only skimmed it. But I think marriage is a lot more than just attracting a woman. It is so much more than the physical.
> 
> I would encourage men to look at their characters. I think deep character work could do a lot to restore a marriage.


I would encourage you to read it in it's entirety. You would see very clearly that while it is presented in a superficial manner, that the work it says to do requires examination of one's character.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I would encourage you to read it in it's entirety. You would see very clearly that while it is presented in a superficial manner, that the work it says to do requires examination of one's character.


Okay, I will try to read it. 

Honestly, I did try once, about a year ago, after hearing about it on relationship forums. It just did not speak to me.


----------



## Chaparral

jld said:


> Okay, I will try to read it.
> 
> Honestly, I did try once, about a year ago, after hearing about it on relationship forums. It just did not speak to me.


Its not supposed to.


----------



## Chaparral

Has anyone suggested HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS? I don't know how anyone could use it if one spouse refused to talk.

I just don't think this has anything to do with what she says it does.

This could just be another case of a woman with kids needind a man and now she feels she doesn't. The lowered income levels are sticking out like a sore thumb.

Did her ex remarry?

Did you ever doubt her story about abuse?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Her ex remarried before we got married...to a girl that is a little younger and looks a bit like my wife. My wife is prettier but the resemblances are there.

The lowered income, I think, does play a role. Her lack of helping when I needed it also helped lower the income, too.

I don't doubt her stories of abuse. She said he never did it again after she went back to him, but things never really recovered and she never felt the same about him again. She feels the same thing can happen now...her feelings for me not returning. Or that it may happen a few years from now, that I'll go back to "my old ways" and she doesn't know if she can trust again.

The trust issues are prior to me, but a big factor in where we are.

I do believe that she really did love me. I believe when she says that it was built on trust...I don't care for that explanation...it goes back to me being the "safety guy" that I know longer am.

I think that she sees me of less of a man now that we have been together long enough...she likes hunting and football, I don't dislike I just didn't spend time doing it.

She would make comments about my "baby voice" with my son when he was younger was high (like a girl)...she joked about it but I caught it.

I did some turn-off things...they pop into my head every now and then that I had forgotten about (sexually).

Her faith is real but it is also a conflict.

The sad thing is, I am as much of a man as most men I know. This is fixable. I've learned from the hurts that I've caused, that I don't think most woman would have been so fixated on if they hadn't been through what she has been through.

She may just want someone that fits her idea of a "man" now that she is in a safer place but with less income.

The other frustrating part is that I have pretty much fixed the income situation but waiting for the actual checks to come in.

My new business could be much better if I hadn't been trying to figure out and save my marriage at the same time, basically since I opened it up.

I still think depression plays a role. I do think that I played a role in that depression to a degree but not completely.

I have the tools for what she is looking for and we have a family that is otherwise doing really good but will become collateral damage (and worse once the custody battle were to start, I'm not giving up half of my son's life without a judge saying so).

I can see it working out, and I can see it not at this point. My faith tells me not to divorce but my sight is seeing it as a real end result at this point.


----------



## jld

I hear blaming.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Not trying to blame, I'm just trying to lay it out there. 
We both could have done better. I just want the chance to prove that I am better for it.

Today isn't a good day for my outlook I'm afraid.

Working on it though.

I'm seeing the counselor today, haven't seen him since the last time we were both there at the same time.


----------



## jld

Glad to hear you are seeing the counselor.


----------



## Abc123wife

jld said:


> I hear blaming.


Wow, I have been following this thread but it just seems so strange! It seems that no matter what the OP does, it will never be enough or the right thing for his wife. I don't see the OP blaming his wife at all although frankly I think it is all her fault!

The OP seems frustrated by his wife's complete lack of willingness to work on the marriage. Come on, his wife discourages/refuses sex for the most part and then considers his occasional (?) use of porn and casual contact with a long ago female friend that he never even had sex with as adultery? And this is her grounds for divorce?! 

He was a virgin until 29 years old! How much of a player could he be? She seems either mentally ill to retroactively think their relation is based on evil (after how many years of marriage? and a child) all in the name of religion! So God wants her to abandon another husband and destroy another child's family life to atone for their evil? 

Your suggestions for the OP to up his loving acts and to treat her like a queen will make her love him again? Trying to nice her back into the marriage will not bring her back to him. It will only reward her horrible treatment of him and her messed up psychological and religious issues.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Abc123wife said:


> Wow, I have been following this thread but it just seems so strange! It seems that no matter what the OP does, it will never be enough or the right thing for his wife. I don't see the OP blaming his wife at all although frankly I think it is all her fault!
> 
> 
> 
> The OP seems frustrated by his wife's complete lack of willingness to work on the marriage. Come on, his wife discourages/refuses sex for the most part and then considers his occasional (?) use of porn and casual contact with a long ago female friend that he never even had sex with as adultery? And this is her grounds for divorce?!
> 
> 
> 
> He was a virgin until 29 years old! How much of a player could he be? She seems either mentally ill to retroactively think their relation is based on evil (after how many years of marriage? and a child) all in the name of religion! So God wants her to abandon another husband and destroy another child's family life to atone for their evil?
> 
> 
> 
> Your suggestions for the OP to up his loving acts and to treat her like a queen will make her love him again? Trying to nice her back into the marriage will not bring her back to him. It will only reward her horrible treatment of him and her messed up psychological and religious issues.



It's called gas lighting. It's common with cheaters. And you're right, treating her like a queen and trying to nice her back is destined to fail.


----------



## Chaparral

On a side note, would she think Zumba was a girls exercise? I thought it was.

You should go to weight lifting. Women love big arms. And that's not negotiable.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Zumba is more for females although the instructor was a guy...masculine enough family man. 

I did it because I hosted it. We didn't market it much and I didn't want to be there and not do it. Our youngest daughter did it with me so she thought that was great.

I was at the gym a bit ago. I lift and run and teach martial arts.


----------



## As'laDain

which martial arts?


----------



## Chaparral

I don't see how leaving an abusive husband could be considered adultery unless she exaggerated the abuse. Even at that I can't see breaking up a family as an act of contrition. That's why I have a hard time believing her.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, now she says she can't trust you will not go back to the way you were. What does that even mean?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Foolscotton, that is pretty much the point she was going with.

Chap - she is afraid that I'll go back to making everything else a priority over her...she felt second place which is how she felt in her first marriage. She wanted the time. I wanted the time too and could have done better in hind sight but we were also living on the money I had been used to making even though I was consistently making less each year. Money takes time. Completely fixable, it was just one of the many components it seems.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Breaking up the family is the hardest for me to fathom of this...that whatever has happened is worth breaking up the family. We've had a pretty good life since being together.

It was kind funny/ironic. The girl she was going to the game with this weekend came by while she was cooking dinner. The other girl works...I think teaches or something, anyway, she made the comment "I can't wait for the day I can cook for my family." Im thinking...well, you have to have a husband that can swing you not working as much. I don't know what her husband does, nice guy, I was just thinking how ironic it was that my wife is trying to leave a situation most others would seem to want. 

With that said, she did cook dinner tonight. Probably 2 months since that has happened. She asked if I was going to leave before she had it done. This time I said no. I was late to open the school a few minutes (tae kwon do) but it was completely worth it.


----------



## farsidejunky

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> With that said, she did cook dinner tonight. Probably 2 months since that has happened. She asked if I was going to leave before she had it done. This time I said no. I was late to open the school a few minutes (tae kwon do) but it was completely worth it.


Priorities, brother. I would wager this seemingly small gesture was huge to her. Keep at it.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Agreed on that note.


----------



## As'laDain

i have come to understand that time together is something you have to plan for. there is almost always a way to find time to spend together. its quite important to find it.


----------



## As'laDain

foolscotton3 said:


> Small gestures being noticed.
> 
> Sensing a bit of normalcy? What if the waters just become smooth-sailing over time, and you never get closure. Both you two agree its better, but you never talked about it. Would that bother you? Or would you be able to just pass this all off as an emotional anomaly.


no, you will have to resolve it at some point. but, i wouldnt try to seek closure until you have a solid foundation. 

first, get things back to where they should be. then, once you have that solid base, you can start working on resolving issues that caused resentment.


----------



## jld

AslaDain, how do you suggest he get things back to where they should be?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I doubt OP's wife thinks he is trying too hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> AslaDain, how do you suggest he get things back to where they should be?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


first, gotta find out what the problem is. easier said than done. im still reading the thread to see if anything stands out to me.


----------



## jld

I think she sees him as responsible for how things have gone.

I am not saying that is how it is, but I think that is how she sees it right now.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Basically christian non-denom. But if we had to choose, probably Baptist.
Our pastor is a well-rounded guy. More Joel osteenish if you were looking for a description.

We are working a little better together but the girls will be gone now until Christmas so it may allow her to change her tune a bit if we're partly a show to keep the peace.

I'm trying to think positive though and not focus on my insecure "what-ifs"

I also fixed something at the house yesterday she asked me about earlier in the week. Another alpha deficit, Im not as mechanically inclined as her dad. never have been. I don't dislike it, just isn't where I've focused my time but I've always been able to pay a professional to fix it. I actually like a lot of things that she thinks I'm not, now that I'm taking the time to try it.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

She asked what time I'd be home tonight. I texted her back and told her. She said she'd probably go finish her Christmas shopping and then stay at her folks tonight. 

I'm not going to argue about it. Just say okay. Quite disappointing but also not as cold as she has been.


----------



## jld

"Have a good time. I'll miss you."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm not trying to be "the nice guy" but I also never want to feel like I think my son is a burden. I'll take him every time.

This is a bit of trigger if I let it. I also consider offering to go...playfully...but I' wouldn't expect her to say yes and we don't need anymore rejective discussions where she is telling me no.

She did text backs said she'd be back to take care of my son.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I see your point JLD.


----------



## jld

It is a boy you had with her, right? Not from a previous relationship?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Yes. I love that boy. 

Her oldest daughter told me she loved me today as they left for their dads


----------



## jld

Very sweet, OP. How did you respond? Was it in front of your wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I had said it indirectly first about a minute before so it took me a little off guard but her mom was there and I said it back as they were just outside the house...took me a second to register what she said. 

I'm still a bit tempted to lightly offer to go. She is coming back before I have to leave in the morning instead of me taking him to my moms. I also offered to let her drop him off sooner so she could leave earlier but she said she could get to the stores before they close if I get home about as we planned. 

In my more confident days I could make it happen easy...inviting myself and having a good time with it.

I'll feel it out a bit but likely just genuinely tell her to have a good time if I pick up any of her moodiness.


----------



## farsidejunky

Don't feel it out. Clearly communicate to her what you want. Do so in a clear and humble manner.

_"Wife, I would really enjoy your company tonight and would love to go with you."_

Given her emotional state and the lack of true communication between you two, she is probably mind reading your intentions just like you are hers. Make it clear to her what you want. You are taking a chance on this by making yourself vulnerable and open to rejection, but she might just say yes.

Tell her what you want, Hopeful.

And if she does reject you, JLD's answer is perfect.

_"Okay. I will miss you."_

Communicating to her what you want, how you feel, and what you fear is not weak. It requires vulnerability, which I know is incredibly difficult right now.

When my wife and I were in similar circumstances, we first started to turn things around, but we were still a complete mess: anger; resentment; still really not in a good place.

In counseling, I finally let my defenses down and told her how I felt. How things hurt me. I stopped masking my fear and hurt with anger and silence. We turned a major corner when I did.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

So I went that route, she didn't take me up on it. It still wasn't nearly as cold or silent as other rejections have been. We made other small talk in the time we were together.

It isn't much to look into for anything good except that things are handled better than they were and she hasn't moved downstairs or out at this point.

Not gonna lie, as a husband and a man, I need my wife. Tonight could have been a good night.

On a side note, she was dressed up a bit. I'm guessing what she wore to the Christmas party at school. There was a little cleavage...enough I wanted to throw her on the bed.

She is supposedly staying at her moms and dads tonight. There is still that small part in me that wants to verify but if she were to lie at this point to go do someone else...I still don't really want to consider that.

She is Christmas shopping for the kids. If she could use those reasons to get with another man...all of this would be crazy. Psychologically damaging to say the least. 

I am still going to believe what she told me.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> So I went that route, she didn't take me up on it. It still wasn't nearly as cold or silent as other rejections have been. We made other small talk in the time we were together.
> 
> It isn't much to look into for anything good except that things are handled better than they were and she hasn't moved downstairs or out at this point.
> 
> Not gonna lie, as a husband and a man, I need my wife. Tonight could have been a good night.
> 
> On a side note, she was dressed up a bit. I'm guessing what she wore to the Christmas party at school. There was a little cleavage...enough I wanted to throw her on the bed.
> 
> *She is supposedly staying at her moms and dads tonight. There is still that small part in me that wants to verify but if she were to lie at this point to go do someone else...I still don't really want to consider that.
> 
> She is Christmas shopping for the kids. If she could use those reasons to get with another man...all of this would be crazy. Psychologically damaging to say the least.
> 
> I am still going to believe what she told me.*


You're not doing either of you any favors by allowing that doubt to fester in the back of your mind. Now that you have it, you need to eliminate it.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Thanks Nucking.

I don't think I did tell her.


----------



## jld

Any comment on her appearance might be interpreted as you looking for something.

I would focus on acts of service and active listening. Be genuinely kind to her in word and deed.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I tend to agree JLD. Things went okay otherwise and even though I wanted to tell her and wanted to make a seduction/flirt-based comment, I didn't do that either at this point.

I felt like it would have fallen into the "typical nice guy" comment...even after being rejected.

My main victory in this was not letting things go south with comments based on sex or insecurities.


----------



## jld

How about writing a love letter to her tonight and sending it by email? But a pure love letter, nothing to do with sex. 

Think of the things that you're grateful to her for, and tell her why. Maybe include some happy memories. Just sincerely loving thoughts that you want to share with her.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I was just telling my grandma that I haven't gotten my wife a gift yet...I got the family a gift...a tradition I do every year really, so I want to continue that. But no actual gift.

I'm considering a Christmas card with a letter...restating my love and kind of updating her on where I'm at with things since we don't talk in a lot of depth yet.

Basically everything ive set out to do, I've managed to do...the new business has made what I've projected (although actually collecting the money is an issue in itself but also being resolved), another financial problem that we had disagreed on....selling a house vs keeping it...I kept it becuase it wouldn't sell and I didn't have time or money to let it set empty so we got it rented. I also felt that if we could at least rent it for now, it would make most of its own payment and then when a new school in the area became official, it would increase the property value. Well, that happened last week...breaking ground. So I can now increase the asking price and between the two changes, it should result in about a 20k increase in profit for keeping it an extra year.

I'm also able to stay home more or at least not work at night anymore.

The issues that hurt her...I've stopped them. From working at home all the time to texting ANYone female, to crazy fantasies that hurt her feeling and ego...stopped it all without regret.

I don't want to write it to convince her I'm worthy...at least that isn't the direct intent, maybe subconsciously, but to comfort her about things that have scared her...and maybe to help increase the Alpha side in her eyes. But also that I love her and the kids and how thankful I am for my family.

I don't want it to come across weak and screaming "I want you to want me"...but if I can write it succinctly, I'm considering it...and renewing her XM. She mentioned it is expired and i can put something in the card for that.


----------



## jld

Have you seen Fireproof?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

No, she watched it with her first husband...figured i didn't need to go down that same road!


----------



## jld

I think it would be really good for you to see it.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Why do you say that, foolscotton?

Maybe I should JLD. I could make that happen.


----------



## jld

My husband has never seen it. I am thinking about picking it up at the library tomorrow. I think my oldest child, my daughter, would enjoy it, too.


----------



## jld

Actually, if you aren't doing anything tonight, I think you could find it in segments on YouTube. That is how I watched it a couple years ago, when we were living abroad.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Watching it tonight. It's on Netflix. Thanks!


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Ha! She even looks like my wife!! My wife is a little prettier...but otherwise!!


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

And we have the same fridge...
A good amount of similarities in the first 5 minutes!


----------



## jld

Sounds like it was made for you, OP.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Always has been. 
Always.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Stayrd up last night and watched Fireproof. There were some really obvious similarities. Good movie. Went to bed feeling good about things.

Woke up this morning and felt a bit bad again. Things came to mind like why she rarely texts still, if she just wrote me off and maybe now waiting until after the holidays. 

Not really posting to complain but more as something to look back on as this becomes more of a advice-based journal that I can look back on when things are better, or for others to relate to.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Stayrd up last night and watched Fireproof. There were some really obvious similarities. Good movie. Went to bed feeling good about things.
> 
> Woke up this morning and felt a bit bad again. Things came to mind like why she rarely texts still, if she just wrote me off and maybe now waiting until after the holidays.
> 
> Not really posting to complain but more as something to look back on as this becomes more of a advice-based journal that I can look back on when things are better, or for others to relate to.


Hop off the victim chair! Farsidejunky brought his marriage back from near death. And he always stresses the importance of staying off the victim chair. Self-pity can be paralyzing!

Have you read his **** test thread?


----------



## farsidejunky

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Stayrd up last night and watched Fireproof. There were some really obvious similarities. Good movie. Went to bed feeling good about things.
> 
> Woke up this morning and felt a bit bad again. Things came to mind like why she rarely texts still, if she just wrote me off and maybe now waiting until after the holidays.
> 
> Not really posting to complain but more as something to look back on as this becomes more of a advice-based journal that I can look back on when things are better, or for others to relate to.


Ok, bro. Let's just say for the sake of the argument she is waiting till after the holidays to do this. Is feeling sorry for yourself going to make that any better either?

Get your ass out of the victims chair, and start looking at things you can directly impact. The problem with feeling sorry for yourself is it completely takes away your ability to look at what you can do better.

For what it's worth, I completely know where you are right now. I was there myself back in January and February.

The way forward is to figure out what kind of a man you want to be. You've already started some of that. You know you want to spend more time with family. You know you don't want to prioritize other things over your wife. You know you've made mistakes in some of the people you've maintain contact with. Those are all good, but look to take it one step further because it appears you've already begun to change those things. What can you look at in yourself that you really would like to change and start to focus on? Answer that question and you've already removed yourself from the victim's chair.


----------



## jld

And keep making genuine deposits into your wife's emotional bank account. If nothing else, it will make eventual coparenting easier.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I am going to listen to it today. 

And I need the kick in the butt about the victim mentality every now and then for sure.

I don't want to be in a situation where i am wasting my days, like I've read in other posts on here. But my wife has been the biggest proof of God, in my life. To give up on my marriage because of hardships that I was initially responsible for, which I should have known better for, and the struggles she has been going through as a Christian...whether she has handled them how anyone else thinks she should have or not, for the her they have been very painful struggles. I can't let myself fall victim to my own insecurities. If I do, and if I give up because of them, I will only amplify them in my children as they grow up and reflect back on this time where their family split up.

I can't speak for my wife. This is just where I have to keep myself focused on what I should be, and what I should be doing as a husband.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I caught your posts after I submitted mine. Good posts. Thank you!


----------



## farsidejunky

It doesn't matter how badly you want the marriage if she doesn't. That's why I'm telling you, you find the steps you can take that will make you a better you regardless of how your marriage turns out, then do it. 

You can't take these steps when you're feeling sorry for yourself or considering improvement only for her. You improve you for you and nobody else.


----------



## jld

A woman's mind can change. Easily.

Work on those deposits in the emotional bank account. Be sincere. Put her best interests first. Listen to her. Seek to understand her.

Confess your shortcomings. Vow to work on them. 

Become a man worthy of her staying married to.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

If she doesn't want to talk because previously our talks end up in fights, how do we ever...talk? Just wait it out until she takes the lead?


----------



## jld

Genuine acts of service will soften her heart. They have to be acts of service that she recognizes as acts of service, however. She has to already know the value of them (they have to be meaningful to her).

Showing gratitude for what she does for you, all the little things you take for granted, would really help, too. "Wife, I know I don't usually mention it, but the way you do xyz really makes my life easier. I'm sorry I haven't often thanked you for it, but I want you to know that I truly appreciate it." _Sincere smile._


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I can tell I am in a talking mood. I want to ask her if there is anything she'd like to ask me...I want to ask how she sees things right now...I want to ask how she takes care of her own needs since we haven't touched in 6 months. 

I don't know that any of them are appropriate, or if they are, if they are appropriate right now.


----------



## farsidejunky

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I can tell I am in a talking mood. I want to ask her if there is anything she'd like to ask me...I want to ask how she sees things right now...I want to ask how she takes care of her own needs since we haven't touched in 6 months.
> 
> I don't know that any of them are appropriate, or if they are, if they are appropriate right now.


You are still going after this based on what you want. Stop!

Your internal dialogue is purely based on your pain right now. I understand that to a certain degree. But how in the hell are you going to convince her that you are prioritizing her when you're still approaching this based on what you want and need?

Your approach should be "when you are ready to talk, I am ready to listen."

JLD is spot on with acts of service and showing of gratitude. That is how you soften her to have the talk to begin with.

Are you truly a self centered person? Ask yourself that. 

Because the more you post, the more I'm beginning to think that this is a large part of her problem with you.


----------



## jld

Amen, far.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Yeah, the more you post the more it's clear to me you're kind of self centered. I know you're hurting and I'm sorry about that, but everything you write is about you and what you want/need and about how what she thinks isn't valid. Even after all of this you're still looking for ways to get sex out of her? Seriously? As others have pointed out, she did try to open up to you and you used it as an opportunity to get sex. Your whole marriage has been about your needs and you deciding what concerns of hers are valid concerns, and you're still here putting down her concerns in the form of looking for ways she's justifying not wanting the marriage. You don't seem to get that not everything is about you and she doesn't have to justify anything. She is not required to want to stay married to you, and her reasons don't need to be approved by you.

My ex was still looking for ways to get sex after I'd told him I wanted out too and it repulsed me. Geez, try some acts of service as farside and jld have suggested and show through actions that not everything is about you. My ex did very little that wasn't about him, and if I benefited from it that was fine but he did very little simply to benefit me as his wife.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Acts of service? I put $500.00 in her account today, the first time we've taken money from the school we opened. We paid ourselves each 500 for Christmas. I put it in her account to cover gifts for the kids, as much as it will cover, since she has bought most of them. She said she didn't want it. It didn't cause a fight, I told her the purpose and let it go.

I'm putting what I'm thinking and feeling i here so that I get it out of my system, and get some opinions, without actually acting on them...which is what I would have done earlier when we started having real problems.

Please don't tell me that when you had your problems, you immediately went right into "no more victim role" in thought and action. I'm putting my thoughts on here so that I won't necessarily follow through with the action.

I am going to word it the way it was recommended and then let it go, as far as talking if she wants to or not.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I can tell I am in a talking mood. I want to ask her if there is anything she'd like to ask me...I want to ask how she sees things right now...*I want to ask how she takes care of her own needs since we haven't touched in 6 months. *
> 
> I don't know that any of them are appropriate, or if they are, if they are appropriate right now.


Still, I want to ask you some questions, and I want you to think about them before you answer. I want you to disregard how you expect jld and farsidejunky to respond to your answers and give me your honest thoughts.

1. Is your wife capable of going 6 months without any sexual contact? Is it likely that she has?

2. Is your gut telling you there may be another person involved here? What do your instincts say?

I'm asking this because you've now made two posts that make me think your gut is telling you something. Understand that farsidejunky and jld do not want you to investigate if your wife is cheating on you, they would prefer that you bury any feeling you have and accept all responsibility for the problems in your marriage. Now pay attention to this next part, because it's very important. *If there is no third party in your marriage jld and farsidejunky are giving you excellent advice to recover your relationship, and you should follow their advice. If there is a third party in your marriage, the advice they are giving you is exactly the wrong advice and will result in the death of your relationship.* 

If your gut is telling you there may be another person involved with your wife you _must_ either eliminate that possibility or confirm it. If your gut is not warning you and you're posting idle speculation, _knock that sh!t off_, it's not helping you and it's creating doubt among the people trying to help you.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Here is the other thing I'm contemplating right now...I'd like to get a Christmas movie and watch it with her and our son (it is just us at this point). It isn't for me, although id like it, I think it'd be a good family moment for our son. He always wants us to sit together, the three of us, like we used to. He'll be sitting on momma and pat the couch for me to come sit by them. :-/

I wouldn't try sitting like that, just doing "pizza and movie night."

Idk, I don't consider it selfish but maybe it is. It's just family moments that we are passing by so if I don't at least mention it, we know it won't happen.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Just saw your post Nucking. I'll get back to you on that one. Getting ready to leave in a few.


----------



## farsidejunky

Is money one of her emotional needs? I bet it's not...

I didn't find my way out of the victim chair for a couple of months. That should be enough for you to justify staying there longer. 

When you are ready to listen, and ready to stop doubling down on why it is okay to be a self-centered victim, I am more than willing to give you more advice. 

You have all the advice you need right now. But you are making excuses for not using it.

I hope you get it sooner rather than later. Your marriage is depending on it...


----------



## farsidejunky

NF:

I am all about ruling that out. At no time have I advocated that he should NOT rule it out. But I don't see it. 

If I am wrong I will gladly admit it. But don't assume because I have not said something that I am either for or against it.


----------



## Nucking Futs

farsidejunky said:


> NF:
> 
> I am all about ruling that out. At no time have I advocated that he should NOT rule it out. But I don't see it.
> 
> If I am wrong I will gladly admit it. But don't assume because I have not said something that I am either for or against it.


Well then I gladly stand corrected.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Nucking, in all honesty it used to be...it isn't now. There are red flags and then there are things that have countered them. Well, at least if it is, it is at the bottom of the list. When I start scraping the bottom of the pity barrel, it is still there. 
Not because of her actions as much as it is the stories I've read on here and have known about happening over the years.

I also have self esteem issues. It's crazy...I've reached every goal I've set for myself. But I've still always felt like I wasnt good enough. Like if there are two people in a room with two opinions, I question my own first. If I'm one of two guys going for a girl (back in the day) I'd assume the other guy would get the girl. So i think when I know what my shortcomings are in her eyes...like when she initially said she didn't love me, wasn't attracted to me...pretty killer statements...I revert back to "then who are you attracted to" instead of "what is it in my character that made you feel this way" like what happened in Fireproof. Kirk Cameron wasn't unattractive, his actions were. I just couldn't see it like that until the movie last night.

I put her on a pedestal. She felt like my trophy, I saw her as my treasure. I obviously didn't do a good job of convincing he otherwise. She is still on a pedestal to some degree. She is "my Rachel" let's say...not her real name, but she is just "mine". The only one I want. I do love her heart. I just don't understand it right now and my insecurities do start popping up and tell me that it's all my imperfections. 

The Bible talks about struggling not with flesh and blood but of the spirit. It never made sense until I got older. This is exactly what is going on, as it is in most, or all, other situations.

I don't quit anything. I just dont. well, I quit wrestling in high school one year but I never forgot that. Not quitting and being consistent are very important to me in my life. This is no different but it seems so much harder.

Money isn't as big of a deal to her, I wasnt trying to impress her with money, just wanting to provide for her and maybe surprise her with something nice. This time it was in the form of money. 

I can see myself waiver when I go back and read some of my posts.

I do appreciate the advice. Sincerely.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

On a brighter note, she was okay with doing pizza and movie night.


----------



## jld

How about watching Fireproof _together?_

At the end you could talk about how sorry you are for having treated her the way you have. You could talk about the things you learned from the movie and ask her what things she would like you to have learned from the movie.

I think that kind of sensitivity and openness would be a huge deposit in her emotional bank account.


----------



## Abc123wife

jld said:


> *How about watching Fireproof together?
> 
> At the end you could talk about how sorry you are for having treated her the way you have. * You could talk about the things you learned from the movie and ask her what things she would like you to have learned from the movie.
> 
> I think that kind of sensitivity and openness would be a huge deposit in her emotional bank account.


I guess I am missing something that maybe the OP explained in an earlier thread. How has he treated his wife so poorly? I am still confused why his wife wanted to separate and why she refuses any intimacy, etc. 

Has the wife said that she wants divorce? She doesn't seem to be willing to bend at all to work on the marriage. Does she do any deposits of any kind to her husband's emotional bank? Or are all the deposits only expected to be to her? Can a marriage be fixed if only one makes deposits?


----------



## lifeistooshort

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Acts of service? I put $500.00 in her account today, the first time we've taken money from the school we opened. We paid ourselves each 500 for Christmas. I put it in her account to cover gifts for the kids, as much as it will cover, since she has bought most of them. She said she didn't want it. It didn't cause a fight, I told her the purpose and let it go.
> 
> I'm putting what I'm thinking and feeling i here so that I get it out of my system, and get some opinions, without actually acting on them...which is what I would have done earlier when we started having real problems.
> 
> Please don't tell me that when you had your problems, you immediately went right into "no more victim role" in thought and action. I'm putting my thoughts on here so that I won't necessarily follow through with the action.
> 
> I am going to word it the way it was recommended and then let it go, as far as talking if she wants to or not.


As a matter of fact I did not go into victim mode. I've never been a victim.....doesn't mean I don't hurt and haven't faced trying times. In fact, my divorce was so stressful that I lost all feeling in my hands and they became numb.....but I'm not a victim and never have been.

I think it's great you're posting your thoughts, but others will post their unadulterated thoughts here as well. You're the one with the issues and everyone, even me, is trying to help. But since you don't want to hear it I wish you good luck and will bow out.

PS: if you always do what you've always done you'll get what you've always got.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

abc - I hear you. Ive wondered the same thing but only because otherwise I feel like I'm displaying weakness by always being the one to initiate any kind of deposit. I'm willing to do it based on the experience of the one giving the advice because it worked for him and I really don't think my wife is cheating so I want to give her heart every chance I can to show who I really am, or at least want to be, and how i see her.

Life - I wasn't trying to be sarcastic or unappreciative of the advice about acts of service, just that I felt I have been trying to. No need to bow out, I listen and consider everything said. It helps me look at the options before i do anything I may later regret.

cotton- good stuff. Very good.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Last night didn't go horrible. No fights at any rate, so that is good.

However, the big game is today. She has still never brought up that she is going with a girlfriend...not the one from church.

I told her at one point that "when she feels like talking about anything, I'm willing to listen." 

It was also put on my heart to look her in the eyes and tell her I love her, with no expectationas of hearing anything good in return. And I didnt. She kind of smiles and looked down...not the look of indifference I would usually get.

And now she is sleeping downstairs somewhere, probably in our oldest daughters room but I didn't check.

On a bright note, a few weeks ago this would have put me in panic mode. Now, I'm just (hopefully) going back to sleep. I either have a peace about things or I've grown a bit numb to this.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Side note - she also doesn't post anything on FB about going the game like she initially did last week. Her friend has posted something to my wife's age about being excited and my wife responds once and nothing follows... Like furtter comments about how great things will be.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I meant "account" not age.


----------



## farsidejunky

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Last night didn't go horrible. No fights at any rate, so that is good.
> 
> However, the big game is today. She has still never brought up that she is going with a girlfriend...not the one from church.
> 
> I told her at one point that "when she feels like talking about anything, I'm willing to listen."
> 
> It was also put on my heart to look her in the eyes and tell her I love her, with no expectationas of hearing anything good in return. And I didnt. She kind of smiles and looked down...not the look of indifference I would usually get.
> 
> And now she is sleeping downstairs somewhere, probably in our oldest daughters room but I didn't check.
> 
> On a bright note, a few weeks ago this would have put me in panic mode. Now, I'm just (hopefully) going back to sleep. I either have a peace about things or I've grown a bit numb to this.


Better. Much better!

Keep pursuing being the man you want to become. 

I don't think I have suggested this to you yet. I think it would be a fantastic idea at this point to start.

Tonight, right before bed, ask her to sit on the couch with you. Take her hand. Look her in the eye. Thank her for any small things she has done either for you or the kids. Anything that makes your or their lives better or easier. Pay attention throughout the day so you can give her credit for it.

After you are done, tell her that when she is ready, it would please you if she would do the same. 

Then hold her hand and ask her to pray with you. Tell God you are thankful for being led to your wife, for the small blessings he gives you throughout the day. Ask God to heal your marriage, to soften your hearts, to help you become better people and more in His image, to heal your family.

You lead the prayer as the head of your family should. Afterwards, tell your wife that your promise to her is that you will do this nightly with her, whether you are angry, fighting, or in different locations, and no matter how lousy the day was.

Tell her you look forward to the day you will be able to lay in the same bed with her, side by side, to do so.

Then tell her you love her and make your way to the bed.

If there is room to soften her heart, I promise this will do so.

Keep at it, brother.


----------



## jld

I can't remember, OP, but have you sincerely apologized for hurting her? 

The scene in Fireproof where the husband gets down on his knees to ask his wife's forgiveness for not being the husband he should have always been is one of the most moving in the film. He is not focused on her faults, but just humbly and sincerely takes responsibility for his own. Touches the deepest part of his wife's heart. Though, if it had not been backed up by over 40 days of loving and selfless actions, it probably would not have been effective.

Just something to think about.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I have. Not down on my knees, and I got to about day 20 on the Love Dare when I started losing track, and ground. I still try to follow the tenets but I need to go ahead and finish it as well.

Today was a little better. She came up and laid down in our bed...but partly because I texted her around 2:30 am after my son woke up for the second time asking for me and then mommy...but there was no mommy. I, pretty politely, told her that I'm fine with it when she is working but it is pretty hard to accept when she is downstairs by choice and he is left to deal with it. 

Later that morning we were talking about current affairs and she was saying how we needed to stock up on things in case things got crazy because we have 3 kids to take care of and protect. Part of what got my attention was the consistent use of "we" this time. 

She asked if I knew about the game today. I said yes and asked her if her friend that was going knew I had bought them for us. She said no and that she asked her two weeks ago ( when things were worse) but that she would pay for the tickets.

I told her they were a gift (part of the Love Dare come to think of it, that is what led me to get them) and even though they were meant for "us", I want her to know that her happiness is what is important to me (one of her initial complaints...that and her lack of friends) and that I really just want her to go and have a good time. I left it at that.

It was after that, actually, that she did become more talkative.

To top it off, her vehicle was in need of an oil change. She was driving to the game (3 hour trip) and I didn't want her driving her vehicle (it was in need of an oil change 4-6 weeks ago). So I went and switched her vehicle for a BMW that I had bought in my richer days that my mom now drives. Sweet ride. Had that on the autobahn at least 150.

Anyway, when she left, she hugged me...no "love you" or anything but I feel fine about things...like I can see a lower layer of my wife a little more consistently the past couple of days.

It also lets me know that at least I know I'm doing my best.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I can't edit on my phone when I reply. I meant the car had been on the autobahn at 150 mph.


----------



## jld

Hey, that sounds good. I am sure you appreciated the hug.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm not real sure where she was on it but I know she messed up one of her cars when she was younger for waiting too long. Since I'm not the mechanical type, the other vehicle was my "quick fix" and figured it would sweeten the trip a bit. I mainly took it for business meetings. 

Can't you burn your engine up or something? Idk.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Anybody want to guess what?


----------



## jld

She told you she's sorry for rejecting you, and you two had a passionate afternoon?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Nope. There is somebody else.


----------



## jld

Oh, no. 

How did you find out?


----------



## Tobyboy

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Nope. There is somebody else.


Let me guess...co-worker?
So, how did you find out and what do you know?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

You have to break that one down.

And I honestly didn't think that was going on, brother. 

So sorry...


----------



## Borntohang

Whaaaaaa??? My Spidey Senses didn't see this at all!


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Idk yet where she knows him from. I came across some of her stuff cleaning the house and found letters in her work bag...I looked intentionally, something told me I should. 

I found letters to him/journal entries about him and letters to me she didn't give me. They were at about the time we separated. Apparently they weren't working out but her "heart was breaking" and in the letters to me they were about how my issues really hurt her and she was planning to file for divorce.

She doesn't know I know. I'm considering my options. It was a bit surreal, almost a little relieving to be honest...not in a good way...hard to explain. 

My son and I are back at my folks, we will stay here tonight. 

I took pictures of the letters but I can't bring myself to look at them again.


----------



## jld

It is not the minister she met with, is it?

All that time in church, and reading her Bible all the time. Very surprising.


----------



## jld

I am so sorry, OP. How painful.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Not the pastor. Something ended in July. On the 27th. I saw the flags build up around the 4th of July. 

She used all my vulnerabilities against me. Shamed me to cover herself it seems. 

Believable because of the red flags but unbelievable at the same time. My wife was "different" she was genuine. 

But really, I'm just another statistic like so many others on this site. 

My family... My son. Everything changes. Everything has to change. 

These kids, they don't deserve it.


----------



## jld

What options are you considering?

And good thing you are with your folks. Did you tell them?


----------



## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Idk yet where she knows him from. I came across some of her stuff cleaning the house and found letters in her work bag...I looked intentionally, something told me I should.
> 
> I found letters to him/journal entries about him and letters to me she didn't give me. They were at about the time we separated. Apparently they weren't working out but her "heart was breaking" and in the letters to me they were about how my issues really hurt her and she was planning to file for divorce.
> 
> She doesn't know I know. I'm considering my options. It was a bit surreal, almost a little relieving to be honest...not in a good way...hard to explain.
> 
> My son and I are back at my folks, we will stay here tonight.
> 
> I took pictures of the letters but I can't bring myself to look at them again.


Now that you are out of denial and looking at what is really going on, keep your emotions in check. They will bounce around on you a great deal tonight especially once you start to realize the game of blame deflection etc she has put on you.


----------



## happy as a clam

Nucking Futs said:


> Still, I want to ask you some questions, and I want you to think about them before you answer. I want you to disregard how you expect jld and farsidejunky to respond to your answers and give me your honest thoughts.
> 
> 1. Is your wife capable of going 6 months without any sexual contact? Is it likely that she has?
> 
> 2. Is your gut telling you there may be another person involved here? What do your instincts say?
> 
> I'm asking this because you've now made two posts that make me think your gut is telling you something. Understand that farsidejunky and jld do not want you to investigate if your wife is cheating on you, they would prefer that you bury any feeling you have and accept all responsibility for the problems in your marriage. Now pay attention to this next part, because it's very important. *If there is no third party in your marriage jld and farsidejunky are giving you excellent advice to recover your relationship, and you should follow their advice. If there is a third party in your marriage, the advice they are giving you is exactly the wrong advice and will result in the death of your relationship.*
> 
> If your gut is telling you there may be another person involved with your wife you _must_ either eliminate that possibility or confirm it. If your gut is not warning you and you're posting idle speculation, _knock that sh!t off_, it's not helping you and it's creating doubt among the people trying to help you.


OP, I'm very sorry about your discovery. No one deserves what you're going through 

Looks like NF was on the right track.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Why is it the wrong advice?


----------



## happy as a clam

jld said:


> Why is it the wrong advice?


Who is your question directed to, jld?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

happy as a clam said:


> Who is your question directed to, jld?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anyone who knows the answer.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I don't know yet how to actually handle it. Confront her? Lay low and be silent like she has been for so long now? 

I'm not going to talk to anyone but this forum about it for now. Possibly the counselor. 

I was going to wait until she gets home and let her text me about why we aren't there...I think I will just text her soon and tell her we won't be there so it doesn't bring up any suspicions on her part yet? 

I hate this. I don't want to play games but I also only have one real shot at it...having the potential power play in my hands right now.

I currently don't see any other option than divorce. That kills me but how do I ever trust this again? 

I didn't want this hand of cards but now that I have it, I don't know the best way to handle it.


----------



## jld

Wow, I can't believe you resisted telling your parents. I would've been crying like a baby to loved ones.

She still wants to divorce, right? Hasn't she been pretty consistent about that?

Do _you_ want to divorce?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

In full disclosure, the thought did initially come across me that now this might bring her back to the realization that she will be losing this family and want to really try to reconcile, but really, how naive would that make me??

Two years from now when things have maybe settled down and she gets bored or disappointed in me again...how will I ever know this won't happen again?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

No worries Foolscotton...at this point nothing is unfathomable.


----------



## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> I always hate suspecting that, but I've come to expect it, I've been in too many ministries, and when a pastor meets a spouse alone, hidden sin is involved, otherwise a pastor wouldn't have a reason to council one partner.


Well, that would explain why she was crying after the meeting with the minister the other day. I wonder if he told her to confess to her husband.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

If i tell my folks, they would never look at her the same again.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> If i tell my folks, they would never look at her the same again.


That makes it sound like you don't really want to divorce.


----------



## jld

Did you get the feeling it was more of an emotional affair, or was there a physical element? I wasn't sure from the way you described it. 

Does it make a difference to you? For example, would a physical affair be an absolute dealbreaker?


----------



## farsidejunky

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> If i tell my folks, they would never look at her the same again.


That is the price _she_ pays for cheating. 

Look, brother. I feel terrible that I had it wrong regarding her stepping out.

That said, when it comes to infidelity, I am absolutely ruthless. 

I would formulate a plan for exposure and have her served concurrently; scorched earth. 

But that is me.

At this point I think I have done more harm than good and will keep my distance.

So sorry again, brother.


----------



## honcho

One of the reason for exposing is so people don't look at the other the same. They need to see the real person, not the illusion. 

I wouldn't tell them tonight, you need some time for this to sink in and figure a gameplan for yourself. Expect a sleepless night unfortunately. Start to find yourself a lawyer in the morning. Find out what your legal responsibilities/rights are where you live. This doesn't mean you have to get divorced but you need to know your options.

The red flags screamed and like many of us you didn't want to look when our situations started.


----------



## Nucking Futs

farsidejunky said:


> That is the price _she_ pays for cheating.
> 
> Look, brother. I feel terrible that I had it wrong regarding her stepping out.
> 
> That said, when it comes to infidelity, I am absolutely ruthless.
> 
> I would formulate a plan for exposure and have her served concurrently; scorched earth.
> 
> But that is me.
> 
> At this point I think I have done more harm than good and will keep my distance.
> 
> So sorry again, brother.


You were giving the wrong advice, but it was the right advice for the situation you were addressing. It's not your fault that the situation was not what you thought it was. 

Now you know the real situation you can still give good advice. Don't drop out now.

Still, it's time for righteous anger. But not precipitous. Tomorrow, go find a lawyer, pay the retainer, and file for divorce. You don't have to decide right away whether you want to divorce or not, it's a process not an event. You'll have plenty of time to withdraw the petition if you decide to R. Find out when she's going to be served and expose to her family, your family, and anybody she may have lied about your situation to on that day. Anybody that thinks she's going to leave you over anything other than her cheating on you needs to be told the truth. If you haven't already separate your bank accounts and cut her off from any shared credit cards or accounts, don't give her the opportunity to drive you deeper into debt on her way out.

It's way late in the game but you still have a shot at R here. You have to hit her hard, fast, and repeatedly to knock her off balance. It's only then that you will see if R is a possibility. _Her reactions to being served and the exposure are going to determine whether you can recover your marriage or not. _


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I appreciated all the advice. Still do. We were thinking the same thing Farside so you were giving good advice. The sad thing is, I had started to see the little changes in her.

Maybe I was looking too hard...she never did text anything during or after the game.

Do I want a divorce? I really don't. I used to think that even if she was having some sort of affair, we could work through it. But now that she has, and she kept being cold for so long...and everything that she used to deflect it from her back to me...my shame, our faith...I don't know.

I do have the best attorney for this situation on retainer. 

I cancelled our appointment last week in exchange for the meeting with the counselor.

I will reschedule.


----------



## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> I not sure if publicly shaming her is a loving response. You still love your wife, Hosea?


I think the idea is to force her to be honest with herself. And ideally, with him.


----------



## farsidejunky

foolscotton3 said:


> I not sure if publicly shaming her is a loving response. You still love your wife, Hosea?


Don't confuse public shaming with being proactive about preventing being mischaracterized and gaining leverage.

ETA: NF is spot on with his suggestion.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

It is hard for me to imagine "hitting her hard" but i understand it. I will file and see what options there are for as much custody of my son as I can get. 

I didn't get married to get a divorce and I sure didn't have a son to only spend half of his life with him because of a divorce I didn't want to begin with.

He is sleeping on me right now. I don't want to "use him" as a pawn. If the judge were to only give me half, I guess that would be his call but i would try for as much as possible and go from there. 

Still doesn't seem like real life. 

And I know that a lot of people on here have had it a lot worse. God bless those people because this really sucks.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I do still love Gomer.


----------



## farsidejunky

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I do still love Gomer.


Who is Gomer?


----------



## jld

She has already been talking about divorce. Do you think filing and exposing tomorrow will change her mind, or push her further towards it? You know her best, after all.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Gomer is the wife of Hosea who went out a lot on him and yet homer kept her as his wife. It was, I think, symbolic of how God loved Israel (or us) even though we often turned our back on him.

If I confront her and she still wants divorce, I think there would be nothing left to consider. If I ease my was into it, nonconfrontational, she might feel empowered by my weak, albeit loving, approach and take the ball back into her court.

I have to be firm and direct when thevtime comes, much like the advice being given I think.

I do have a question. I'd like to give her the chance to answer me honestly... I'd like to ask her if she is now, or has ever had any kind of affair since we've been married.

I'd like to ask to see her phone. Put her on the spot.

Any advice on that?


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> She has already been talking about divorce. Do you think filing and exposing tomorrow will change her mind, or push her further towards it? You know her best, after all.


This is where the hitting hard and fast plays it's part. Still has to knock her off balance. Until now Still has been the one off balance and reacting to her, that has to flip if he's going to recover this marriage. It cannot be her decision, it must be his decision to make. If she's not begging for another chance while showing genuine distress at the thought that Still might divorce her then divorce is the better option. 

Btw, this is gender neutral advice. A betrayed wife needs to behave in exactly the same manner. You must get the cheater off balance if you want a chance at genuine R.


----------



## farsidejunky

Off the wall question:

Do you actually know she went to the game?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Yes, she posted pics and so did her friend, on FB from their seats.

Dang tickets were $150.00 a piece.
And I didn't really have the money for it. But she was worth it...

She seemed a bit regretful this morning about inviting someone else. She goes to our church. I tried to handle it with some dignity.

Had I not found the letters, I'd have had the whole house clean by now and praying for a few more good signs...or what now feel more like scraps.

I'm honestly not too panicky...at least for the moment. Maybe it is a "peace" or maybe it is shock. I don't really know.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> This is where the hitting hard and fast plays it's part. Still has to knock her off balance. Until now Still has been the one off balance and reacting to her, that has to flip if he's going to recover this marriage. It cannot be her decision, it must be his decision to make. If she's not begging for another chance while showing genuine distress at the thought that Still might divorce her then divorce is the better option.
> 
> Btw, this is gender neutral advice. A betrayed wife needs to behave in exactly the same manner. You must get the cheater off balance if you want a chance at genuine R.


I appreciate the answer, NF. Thank you.

But I still don't see how the advice far and I gave was wrong. Being kind to her softens her heart. If anything, it is working on her conscience, adding to her guilt. 

I think if he had not made efforts to be kind and do acts of service, she would not be likely to feel bad about getting served tomorrow. She was asking for divorce, remember?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

One thing I will say in her defense is that in her journal part, she seemingly found someone who made her feel better...by saying the things I used to say... To make up for the pain that apparently I had caused.

When they stopped talking, it hurt but she thought it was probably best to avoid the temptation anyway. Seems like he bowed out. I can't tell if it was PA or just EA.

I don't know how much of a difference that would make either way though.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hopeful:

Often times what some on this site say to look for is true remorse. I think a better description would be repentance. Here is an excerpt I think bears reading:

_"Repentance is not a superficial weeping under a flood of emotions, as some understand it, but a conscious action which is directed at reconciliation with God and our neighbour. Much time and energy must be applied toward this understanding. Sometimes restitution will also be required, toward however many the sin affected, in order to rectify the damage which the sin brought with it and to fulfil all that the Lord has commanded"_

That would be _my_ standard for considering reconciliation. Unfortunately, it often takes "shock and awe" to bring that out in a person. But I don't know if your wife is that person or not.

FWIW, there are others who are saying to continue trying to soften her heart; that full exposure would just push her away; that she would consider exposure hypocrisy after your texting, etc. And it very well may. 

But my thoughts are that I only want to be with someone who enthusiastically wants to be with me. And her actions at that time would tell you. But again, that is me.

If not, you have all the biblical justification you need to move on.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> One thing I will say in her defense is that in her journal part, she seemingly found someone who made her feel better...by saying the things I used to say... To make up for the pain that apparently I had caused.
> 
> When they stopped talking, it hurt but she thought it was probably best to avoid the temptation anyway. Seems like he bowed out. I can't tell if it was PA or just EA.
> 
> I don't know how much of a difference that would make either way though.


I would hope it would make a huge difference.

This is not a bad woman without a conscience. You know that.

ETA: I mean I hope knowing why she did it, and how she recognized it was for the best that he ended it, makes a huge difference.

Think about _Fireproof_ if you want to keep your marriage, OP. Think about justification (any kind will do) if you do not.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> I appreciate the answer, NF. Thank you.
> 
> But I still don't see how the advice far and I gave was wrong. Being kind to her softens her heart. If anything, it is working on her conscience, adding to her guilt.
> 
> I think if he had not made efforts to be kind and do acts of service, she would not be likely to feel bad about getting served tomorrow. She was asking for divorce, remember?


You have to consider the reason for the marital distress. If, as Still thought (because she told him), the marriage is in trouble because of his actions or the way he treated her then what you were advising is an appropriate approach to try to recover. He would be making up to her for what he had done. 

But a cheater will re-write marital history to justify her behavior and try to place the blame for the marital problems on the betrayed spouse instead of where it properly belongs. If the BS never finds out there was an affair and follows the path you were laying out the cheater has gotten away with it and will likely cheat again in the future. In a nutshell, your advice in a case of infidelity leads to rug sweeping, not reconciliation. And from there to the next affair(s).

If he had investigated earlier and found out about the cheating and served her before going through all the rigmarole he's gone through since this started, and she didn't care, he would be better off without her. Just like if he serves her now and exposes and gets less remorse than he should he's better off without her.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> One thing I will say in her defense is that *in her journal part,* she seemingly found someone who made her feel better...by saying the things I used to say... To make up for the pain that apparently I had caused.
> 
> When they stopped talking, it hurt but she thought it was probably best to avoid the temptation anyway. Seems like he bowed out. I can't tell if it was PA or just EA.
> 
> I don't know how much of a difference that would make either way though.


Still, did you make copies of the evidence?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Also, it might be a good idea to have a mod move this to CWI.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I understand the repentance comment. I did repent personally since my failures came to light.

I took photos of her letters to him. I have phone records that I stopped looking into after most turned out to be legit but I can backtrack now back to July since I know for sure that whatever was going on was going on around then.

If she is truly remorseful/repentant then we will see where it may go. 

She isn't a bad person...but she sure kept the spotlight on me this whole time. Never attempted R at all on her part. Turned my life upside down as well as my son's to some degree in order to get me out of the house. That takes a lot of lack of love. 

I'm not going to consider anything a done deal yet but my eyes are a lot wide open.


----------



## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Gomer is the wife of Hosea who went out a lot on him and yet homer kept her as his wife. It was, I think, symbolic of how God loved Israel (or us) even though we often turned our back on him.
> 
> If I confront her and she still wants divorce, I think there would be nothing left to consider. If I ease my was into it, nonconfrontational, she might feel empowered by my weak, albeit loving, approach and take the ball back into her court.
> 
> I have to be firm and direct when thevtime comes, much like the advice being given I think.
> 
> I do have a question. I'd like to give her the chance to answer me honestly... I'd like to ask her if she is now, or has ever had any kind of affair since we've been married.
> 
> I'd like to ask to see her phone. Put her on the spot.
> 
> Any advice on that?


She wont give you the phone and will just spin this into you being the problem. She wont answer honestly. Look at the lengths she has gone to now to protect her secret. 

This is no longer her decision about divorce, its your decision now.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I understand the repentance comment. I did repent personally since my failures came to light.
> 
> I took photos of her letters to him. I have phone records that I stopped looking into after most turned out to be legit but I can backtrack now back to July since I know for sure that whatever was going on was going on around then.
> 
> If she is truly remorseful/repentant then we will see where it may go.
> 
> She isn't a bad person...but she sure kept the spotlight on me this whole time. Never attempted R at all on her part. Turned my life upside down as well as my son's to some degree in order to get me out of the house. That takes a lot of lack of love.
> 
> I'm not going to consider anything a done deal yet but my eyes are a lot wide open.


It was selfish and deceitful of her. Of course it breaks your trust.

She could have come to you and confessed, asked forgiveness, and worked on reconciling. She could have come to you when she first felt attracted to him, and told you. She could have done lots of other things. You could have, too, with the old girlfriend and the porn.

We are all sinners here, OP.

Farsidejunky knows his limits. I can tell you I would not lead my husband through reconciliation if he cheated on me. He would have to straighten himself out on his own and somehow re-earn my respect. Even then I would never feel the same about his personal integrity, which, imo, is the foundation of our marriage. 

But we have five children, and I would have to consider them, too. I would not be the only one affected by whatever decision I would make.


----------



## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> One thing I will say in her defense is that in her journal part, she seemingly found someone who made her feel better...by saying the things I used to say... To make up for the pain that apparently I had caused.
> 
> When they stopped talking, it hurt but she thought it was probably best to avoid the temptation anyway. Seems like he bowed out. I can't tell if it was PA or just EA.
> 
> I don't know how much of a difference that would make either way though.


She still has an emotional attachment to him, she didn't want it to end. This is often much harder to work with because she dreams of "what could be" instead of the here and now. 

She wont work on your relationship because she is still stuck wanting the other.


----------



## jld

honcho said:


> She still has an emotional attachment to him, she didn't want it to end. This is often much harder to work with because she dreams of "what could be" instead of the here and now.
> 
> She wont work on your relationship because she is still stuck wanting the other.


Transferring that emotional attachment away from that basically unknown object of short term infatuation and towards her husband is easier than you think. It is what all of my advice was geared towards.

She will go where she is fed. She will not go hungry forever. _That is why I have been urging you to feed her, OP._


----------



## As'laDain

im with farsidejunky on this. 

scorched earth. she is the one saying she wants divorce...

well, she is also lying her ass off to everyone around her. there is no sense in trying to reconcile with someone you cannot trust. 

now here is the thing about reconciliation... if you expose and file for divorce, your spouse KNOWS there are consequences that they WILL face if they ever get caught cheating again. very unpleasant ones. but, if you do nothing and try to nice them back and rugsweep it, there is no reason for them to not do it again. if you make reconciliation EASY, then why would they be afraid of going through that process a second time? 

if they really want to stay married, then they will do what they have to and suffer the shame that they have to in order to stay married. if not, then they are not a safe person to be married to anyway. 

so you pick which option you want to go with SKOH, but keep that in mind. 

im sorry you have to go through this. i just hope you plan for what happens _after_ you make your choice on what you want to do.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

So she wanted you out of the house to try another man on for size. That shines a whole new light on this.


----------



## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> I think she might be ashamed, and feel unworthy. The guilt she put on you is deflecting, yes, but why is she defecting. Is she leaving because she doesn't want to face you?
> 
> You have already confronted her enough, she isn't taking accountability. The next thing you must do... Is bring this to the church, tell your pastor.


He has not confronted her on the EA yet, afaik. The minister likely knows, though.

She surely was too ashamed to tell the OP. Lack of trust there.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> He has not confronted her on the EA yet, afaik. The minister likely knows, though.
> 
> She surely was too ashamed to tell the OP. Lack of trust there.


i doubt the minister knows unless hopeful told him. i seriously doubt she told him. 
if she practiced that kind of honesty, the OP would have known about her extramarital love interest.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I plan to not do anything notable tomorrow aside from set up the appointment with the attorney.

I will probably take my son out of town to see lights somewhere and minimize the time at home.

I will set things up as if we are going to divorce and go from there for now and go ahead and look more into other possible red flag zones re: phone records, that I may have glossed over initially.

That's where I'm at for now.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

She is protective of her image at church...reluctant to talk to our pastor at all up until last week. So I doubt he knows yet. Idk, hard to feel certain about anything at this point.


----------



## honcho

jld said:


> Transferring that emotional attachment away from that basically unknown object of short term infatuation and towards her husband is easier than you think. It is what all of my advice was geared towards.
> 
> She will go where she is fed. She will not go hungry forever. _That is why I have been urging you to feed her, OP._


She is having some sort of affair, lying to everyone but he needs to be nicer to woo her back? Softening her heart when she is ripping his apart by not telling him the truth?

Could he have done things better in his marriage, of course he could have, should he work on improving himself, obviously. Its a two way street as she needs to ask herself the same questions.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> i doubt the minister knows unless hopeful told him. i seriously doubt she told him.
> if she practiced that kind of honesty, the OP would have known about her extramarital love interest.


She came home crying from a meeting with the minister. I suppose maybe she didn't tell him. But with the tears, and how religious she is, I don't think it is out of the question.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> She is protective of her image at church...reluctant to talk to our pastor at all up until last week. So I doubt he knows yet. Idk, hard to feel certain about anything at this point.


I am really sorry to hear this. Church should be a place where people freely confess their sins and can get on a healthier path.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> She came home crying from a meeting with the minister. I suppose maybe she didn't tell him. But with the tears, and how religious she is, I don't think it is out of the question.


i guess its possible... but i still doubt it.


----------



## jld

honcho said:


> She is having some sort of affair, lying to everyone but he needs to be nicer to woo her back? Softening her heart when she is ripping his apart by not telling him the truth?
> 
> Could he have done things better in his marriage, of course he could have, should he work on improving himself, obviously. Its a two way street as she needs to ask herself the same questions.


Oh, she needs transparency. She needs to spend time on her knees before her husband, too. And I do not mean for sex acts.

You are not forced to try to reconcile, OP. You can certainly divorce without a backwards glance. But there will be costs.

Softening her heart will make whatever relationship they have easier in the long run, even if it is just co parenting after divorce. But again, he is not forced to do it.


----------



## As'laDain

foolscotton3 said:


> If she was meeting the pastor to discuss OPs sin, the pastor would have confronted the OPs sin. If she was meeting with the pastor for divorce matters, the pastor would only meet if they both were present, his oath is to protect this marriage, so... if he meeting her alone, then she is hiding sin from OP, and the pastor is working on her taking accountability, and asking for forgiveness.
> 
> The only other scenario I see, is your pastor is the OM, and that's unlikely.


she could just be saying that she is not in love with her husband anymore and doesnt know what to do about it. 

without ever mentioning her other man.


----------



## Tobyboy

Any idea who the OM is? 
It shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Chances are it's someone you've met or your WW mentioned before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Tobyboy said:


> Any idea who the OM is?
> It shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Chances are it's someone you've met or your WW mentioned before.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It sounds like he broke it off with OP's wife. And she acknowledged it was a good thing.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

It would have to be either someone from work or our oldest daughters basketball practice.

The more I think about it...and I'm not sayin im right....its late and my mind is wandering again, the more I want to insist on seeing her phone out of the blue. It is what she did to me when she saw I had texted the old gf/friend. She got out of bed came over to my side and demanded to see my phone saying "I knew something had to be going on".

This may be a later night than I thought.

We also have plans to go watch Christmas lights in the town she works at on the night after Christmas. I am already planning to stop by to see her. At first I thought it would be a nice surprise. Now I just want to see if she is even there.


----------



## As'laDain

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> It would have to be either someone from work or our oldest daughters basketball practice.
> 
> The more I think about it...and I'm not sayin im right....its late and my mind is wandering again, the more I want to insist on seeing her phone out of the blue. It is what she did to me when she saw I had texted the old gf/friend. She got out of bed came over to my side and demanded to see my phone saying "I knew something had to be going on".
> 
> This may be a later night than I thought.
> 
> We also have plans to go watch Christmas lights in the town she works at on the night after Christmas. I am already planning to stop by to see her. At first I thought it would be a nice surprise. Now I just want to see if she is even there.


before you ask for the phone, make sure you know what your going to do if she refuses.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

jld said:


> It sounds like he broke it off with OP's wife. And she acknowledged it was a good thing.



He broke it off? Hmm. Someone with a conscience. Like a pastor?

So, if he didn't dump her she'd still be with him. What was she doing with all that free time while you were kicked out of the house? An EA? Right.

Why was she crying when she came back from the pastor again?


----------



## As'laDain

so how do we know its not the pastor again?


----------



## jld

Just reading your posts, OP, it looks like you are on a path of suspicion and distrust. And that is understandable. But it may not be helpful.

How about just filing and telling her why? You already know you do not want to play mind games. 

Tell her the whole idea of checking up on her sounds tiring. You already know she is not happy with you. How about just releasing her?

If she wants you, she will come find you.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Timeline doesn't fit the pastor. Different name from what was in the letter.

JLD, you may have a point but not ready to put out what I know yet. I'd like to find who this guy is. 
For now I'm planning on going in hard when it is time.

If I ask and she doesn't give it to me I will tell her things just don't click and I have a feeling something is still wrong that I don't know about. I will ask her if she is now, or has ever been involved in any kind of affair and if she says no I will likely walk away and file ASAP and see where it goes from there.

I had initially planned a nice Christmas letter telling her everything that we haven't really talked abour lately...this was before today. Now, I've still considered it but in the last sentence say "oh, and I know about OM" using his real name.

I've also considered saying that OM called while she was gone...acting like I have no idea who or what it would be about, but to watch her expression. I noticed last week once the phone rang and she was a lot more in a rush to get it. The home phone. It made me wonder a little bit. Ive reviewed the numbers but most don't have a name or say "number unavailable".

If tomorrow night is anything like tonight, I'm going to have to take a sleeping pill to keep from bringing this all up. :-/


----------



## jld

Don't you think you will find out eventually?

I don't know, Still. I could not do it. If I had found stuff like that in Dug's bag, I would have had to go to him immediately. If there were not complete openness and honesty, I probably would have had to call a lawyer. I just cannot abide a lack of transparency in my marriage.

I don't know how these folks do it with vars and tracking and all of that. Just sounds so tiring to me, always trying to figure out if your spouse is truthful or not. Always thinking up plans and consequences. I just don't think I could do it. Dug is way too smart for any kind of control technique I could think up, anyway.

To me, Win/Win or No Deal. Either we sit down and a new marriage plan is formed together, that addresses issues, no matter how painful or embarrassing, and starts meeting both people's needs, or we probably have to part ways. And that would really be too bad for the kids.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Please, read http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...prepare-potential-divorce-custody-battle.html and protect yourself and your son.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Here is another twist to add to this messed up situation. Apparently, from what i can tell after having re-read the letters/journal entries last night...as of July, she loved him, didn't feel worthy of him because he was "so strong and so good" and he wouldn't someone like after what she has been through. But apparently they have never actually met in person. As of July she had never actually SEEN him! Just heard his "sweet voice." And he now has "part of her heart" as she prayed for protection over him for wherever he was going. ?????

She also confirmed to herself what she was afraid of, that she really didn't love me and that she was basically just tolerating me at that point. 

July was when she told me all the hurtful things. I have no idea what has been going on since then. That's when all the faith issues starting taking hold and I started to ease off thinking there was someone else because of all the religious seeking going on which has only gotten stronger since then.

I struggle between keeping this to myself or bringing it up tonight in the manner of asking for her phone or asking her if there is, or ever has been, anyone else in the picture and seeing what she says.

I hate that this is Christmas. I get the feeling that Christmases for me will never feel the same.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

She also posted on FB that she wishes her brain could down so she could sleep. This was about an hour and a half ago. 

Something is weighing on her mind. 

It doesn't seem to have anything to do though with her missing me, otherwise she could have texted me.

I wish I could sleep! I got about 2 hours so far, with a sleeping aid.


----------



## farsidejunky

So we are talking about a crush more than an affair? Any indication anything was initially reciprocated by the OM?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

There was a comment about how she missed him saying "hey gorgeous" and the he'd like to "hug her neck" or something like that. Nothing any more hot and heavy than that. But that was also 5-6 months ago. That's why I want to see her phone now and catch things off guard.

Dang, she left it out yesterday while showering and I didn't notice it until it was too late to check it.


----------



## farsidejunky

I think it is a mistake to ask for her phone unless you are absolutely certain you will either find evidence or the absence of evidence confirmed on a phone bill.

How much more do you really need to know to meet your threshold for infidelity?

It sounds to me like it's already been met.

ETA: although the symbolism of her having to hand you her phone doesn't escape me.


----------



## farsidejunky

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't your relationship with her start under very similar circumstances? 

Dissatisfied with current relationship, things start with you, etc.? Is this her MO?


----------



## Thound

Do you know this guys name? Is there anyway you can look him up? If you could find him, maybe you could tell him my wife told me everything, now let me hear your side. Just a thought. More experienced people may have better ideas.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

If she really hasn't met him, it wouldn't meet my criteria for infidelity. I'm sure she'd compare it to my relationship that she didn't like, but it wouldn't be the same.

We did get together under similar circumstances. The heart breaking part for me is, it does seem like she was legitimately hurt which left her open to these fantasy escapes. 

I don't know how to wake her up just yet. I can only assume since she had a great time at the game yesterday but didn't tell me about it, she told someone else. That's why, in part, I'd like to see her phone soon.

I consider just having the letters I found on the bed when she comes into the room so there is no skirting the issue. But there were from back in July. And she hadn't even seen the guy at that point. They are still pretty damning towards me though and very much missing this guy she had never apparently met. 

The other sad thing is we really seemed to have JUST been making some ground. She was saying "we" talking about future plans...nothing major but it was new language. She seemed a bit remorseful at first that she had invited the other girl once it came time to go to the game. A part of me hates to jeopardize the small but consistent gains since returning home. And this would do that. But maybe that is just weakness lingering in my mind. Idk.

I'm glad daytime is here. I needed that night to be over.


----------



## jld

The emotional deposits you've been making are making a difference with her. That's why she has changed her language and has been softening towards you.

Her heart was hurting for a long time. That's why you saw the behavior that you did and you read about it in those letters and journal entries.

Something is definitely weighing on her mind. I think your being honest and open with her today could relieve her. I wonder if she's been wanting to tell you but hasn't known how.

I think you have a choice between leadership and non-leadership. A leader is going to look at what is in her best interest (coming clean) and facilitate that. A non-leader is going to focus on how he's been done wrong, and how he can get revenge.


----------



## farsidejunky

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> If she really hasn't met him, it wouldn't meet my criteria for infidelity. I'm sure she'd compare it to my relationship that she didn't like, but it wouldn't be the same.
> 
> We did get together under similar circumstances. The heart breaking part for me is, it does seem like she was legitimately hurt which left her open to these fantasy escapes.
> 
> I don't know how to wake her up just yet. I can only assume since she had a great time at the game yesterday but didn't tell me about it, she told someone else. That's why, in part, I'd like to see her phone soon.
> 
> I consider just having the letters I found on the bed when she comes into the room so there is no skirting the issue. But there were from back in July. And she hadn't even seen the guy at that point. They are still pretty damning towards me though and very much missing this guy she had never apparently met.
> 
> The other sad thing is we really seemed to have JUST been making some ground. She was saying "we" talking about future plans...nothing major but it was new language. She seemed a bit remorseful at first that she had invited the other girl once it came time to go to the game. A part of me hates to jeopardize the small but consistent gains since returning home. And this would do that. But maybe that is just weakness lingering in my mind. Idk.
> 
> I'm glad daytime is here. I needed that night to be over.


Maybe you could take this approach.

"Wife, I understand I have done many things that have hurt you. I have been taking every day in the last few weeks to try to make that hurt up to you. But I will not continue to do so in the face of you sitting on a secret as large as the one you thought you were keeping from me. I will give you one opportunity to come clean with me; one opportunity to take the right step towards making our marriage strong again; one opportunity for you to confess the truth. Anything less than 100% truth from you leaves me no choice but to act accordingly."

Firm, yet leaves her an opportunity to confess. If she does not, you have your answer.

Under no circumstances do you tell her how you found out about the affair.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> If she really hasn't met him, it wouldn't meet my criteria for infidelity. I'm sure she'd compare it to my relationship that she didn't like, but it wouldn't be the same.
> 
> We did get together under similar circumstances. The heart breaking part for me is, it does seem like she was legitimately hurt which left her open to these fantasy escapes.
> 
> I don't know how to wake her up just yet. I can only assume since she had a great time at the game yesterday but didn't tell me about it, she told someone else. That's why, in part, I'd like to see her phone soon.
> 
> I consider just having the letters I found on the bed when she comes into the room so there is no skirting the issue. But there were from back in July. And she hadn't even seen the guy at that point. They are still pretty damning towards me though and very much missing this guy she had never apparently met.
> 
> The other sad thing is we really seemed to have JUST been making some ground. She was saying "we" talking about future plans...nothing major but it was new language. She seemed a bit remorseful at first that she had invited the other girl once it came time to go to the game. A part of me hates to jeopardize the small but consistent gains since returning home. And this would do that. But maybe that is just weakness lingering in my mind. Idk.
> 
> I'm glad daytime is here. I needed that night to be over.


I'm a little bit torn on how you should proceed. If the om broke it off with her when he realized she was starting to crush on him then he's a real stand up guy and there's no need to involve him in your problems. This wouldn't be an affair in my book since it takes two to tango, but would still be infidelity. 

She has mentally tortured you for months because of something she had going on in her own head. You admit you didn't treat her all that well but was what you did comparable to what she's done in the last 6 months? Who has treated who worse?

My previous suggestions to file and expose, hit hard and fast to knock her off balance? Put that on hold. Keep your appointment with the lawyer, pay the retainer, tell him to prepare the filing but don't file it yet. Go all out on investigating, you need more info. Go through the phone records, buy a background check on om, run suspicious numbers through spokeo, etc. VAR her car. She's probably talking freely to her friend about what she's going through, and a var in the car she drove to the game yesterday probably would have had enough on it for you to know where you stand. Water under the bridge now, but var her car so you might catch some later conversations. Var in the house where she's likely to use the phone. Var in the bedroom. But this is very important: if you hear a mans voice on the var STOP LISTENING! Have a trusted friend or one of us from the forum listen to it for you. Do not take a chance on hearing her have sex with someone else.

If she uses the computer, put a keylogger on it to get her passwords, then go through her email. Don't forget to check sent, draft and trash folders.

You noted that you've been seeing some positive signs from her. This means the shock and awe filing/exposure are more likely to work. It might be tempting to sweep this under the rug and continue ignoring her infidelity and living a lie. I wouldn't be able to continue with her knowing that she is willfully deceiving you, blaming you and punishing you for her infidelity. You're going to at least need honesty from her to make a go of it. And transparency. You're not going to be able to trust her with private communications after this.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> The emotional deposits you've been making are making a difference with her. That's why she has changed her language and has been softening towards you.
> 
> Her heart was hurting for a long time. That's why you saw the behavior that you did and you read about it in those letters and journal entries.
> 
> Something is definitely weighing on her mind. I think your being honest and open with her today could relieve her. I wonder if she's been wanting to tell you but hasn't known how.
> 
> I think you have a choice between leadership and non-leadership. A leader is going to look at what is in her best interest (coming clean) and facilitate that. A non-leader is going to focus on how he's been done wrong, and how he can get revenge.





farsidejunky said:


> Maybe you could take this approach.
> 
> "Wife, I understand I have done many things that have hurt you. I have been taking every day in the last few weeks to try to make that hurt up to you. But I will not continue to do so in the face of you sitting on a secret as large as the one you thought you were keeping from me. I will give you one opportunity to come clean with me; one opportunity to take the right step towards making our marriage strong again; one opportunity for you to confess the truth. Anything less than 100% truth from you leaves me no choice but to act accordingly."
> 
> Firm, yet leaves her an opportunity to confess. If she does not, you have your answer.
> 
> Under no circumstances do you tell her how you found out about the affair.


I'm not going to argue against either of these posts. I will point out that jld is all about how your wife feels, you feelings are just something you have to overcome to fix your wife's feelings. Her concept of marriage seems to make the husband solely responsible for the health of the marriage, with the wife as some sort of lesser organism that can only react to her husband rather than a person responsible for her own thoughts and actions.

Regardless, if you do decide to follow the above advice, investigate first.


----------



## jld

No need to rug sweep. But do make it safe for her to tell the truth. I think she would have a long time ago if she had felt safe.

"Wife, we need to talk. We have not been transparent with each other. I think we have both contributed to this situation, but as the head of this family, I am willing to take responsibility first. Is there something you would like to tell me that you haven't felt comfortable telling me before?"

"We need to build a new marriage where we both feel safe. I want you to feel free to come to me. I want to earn that trust from you. And I want to feel the same trust in you."

If she has an abuse background, I would be careful with scorched earth techniques, OP. If you want to reconcile, that is.

If you're just focused on yourself and what you want, though, they are probably fine.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> I'm not going to argue against either of these posts. I will point out that jld is all about how your wife feels, you feelings are just something you have to overcome to fix your wife's feelings. Her concept of marriage seems to make the husband solely responsible for the health of the marriage, with the wife as some sort of lesser organism that can only react to her husband rather than a person responsible for her own thoughts and actions.
> 
> Regardless, if you do decide to follow the above advice, investigate first.


In Christian marriage, the husband is expected to be the leader. The wife is the responder. At least that is what I understand from the Bible.


----------



## jld

This is where I am getting this understanding of Christian marriage, NF:

Marriage—Christ and the Church, Book of Ephesians

_22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[a] of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”* 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.*_


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> In Christian marriage, the husband is expected to be the leader. The wife is the responder. At least that is what I understand from the Bible.


Don't let Blonde see you say this. 

I agree with this, but you take it too far. You can't force someone to follow. Women have free will and are capable of deciding they're not going to follow their husbands lead. You seem to think that any time a wife strays her husband failed in his leadership role, or at least that's the way your advise reads. It's not necessarily the case. Sometimes men can do everything right and their wives still cheat. Sometimes they cheat because of a character defect, or family of origin issues, child sexual abuse, mental illness. It's not always a failure of leadership.

This is why you keep getting called out on these threads. You're focus is too narrow, you can only see one reason for female infidelity. 

Oh, and active listening. Yikes, it's not a one size fits all solution.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> This is where I am getting this understanding of Christian marriage, NF:
> 
> Marriage—Christ and the Church, Book of Ephesians
> 
> _22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
> 
> 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[a] of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”* 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.*_


*

Yep, I know where you're coming from, I argued this at length with Blonde one time.*


----------



## jld

tdwal said:


> What would Jesus do? Would he run away from the confrontation of a adulterer?


Dude. He would be all over OP to meet her emotional needs. He would be looking right at OP. Jesus knows who has the power to make or break a marriage.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> Don't let Blonde see you say this.
> 
> I agree with this, but you take it too far. You can't force someone to follow. Women have free will and are capable of deciding they're not going to follow their husbands lead. You seem to think that any time a wife strays her husband failed in his leadership role, or at least that's the way your advise reads. It's not necessarily the case. Sometimes men can do everything right and their wives still cheat. Sometimes they cheat because of a character defect, or family of origin issues, child sexual abuse, mental illness. It's not always a failure of leadership.
> 
> This is why you keep getting called out on these threads. You're focus is too narrow, you can only see one reason for female infidelity.
> 
> Oh, and active listening. Yikes, it's not a one size fits all solution.


It's a good start. 

NF, I think women go with the man who meets their deepest emotional needs. I'm sure different women have different ones. I needed a man with great intelligence and strong character. 

Sometimes marriage does not work out. For whatever reason, it just doesn't. In that case, I think the kindest thing each partner can do is to release the other from the bonds of matrimony.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Dude. He would be all over OP to meet her emotional needs. He would be looking right at OP. Jesus knows who has the power to make or break a marriage.


Both parties have the power to make or break a marriage.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> It's a good start.
> 
> NF, I think women go with the man who meets their deepest emotional needs. I'm sure different women have different ones. I needed a man with great intelligence and strong character.
> 
> Sometimes marriage does not work out. For whatever reason, it just doesn't. In that case, I think the kindest thing each partner can do is to release the other from the bonds of matrimony.


Are you aware that you come across as defending female infidelity? You appear to believe that if a woman cheats it's always her husbands fault.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> Dude. He would be all over OP to meet her emotional needs. He would be looking right at OP. Jesus knows who has the power to make or break a marriage.


but he would first clean out the temple.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> Both parties have the power to make or break a marriage.


I think in most marriages the man has the edge. Male dominance has been the standard in human societies for most of our existence, afaik.

Women certainly have their own power. But I think it is more limited than a man's. My perception, anyway.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> but he would first clean out the temple.


Look at how he treated the woman who committed adultery, AslaDain. Did you see whips and anger there?

Jesus knows the heart of a woman. He knew how to speak to it.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> Are you aware that you come across as defending female infidelity? You appear to believe that if a woman cheats it's always her husbands fault.


Of course it is not okay. Do you think OP's wife is happy with herself? Do you not think she would like to go to him and confess? 

He feels the weight she is carrying. Yet he will not unburden her.

I am trying to bring these two together, NF. All of my advice has been geared toward emotional connection. But if it simply is not possible, then divorce would be a kindness to both of them. The cleaner and less acrimonious, the better.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> Look at how he treated the woman who committed adultery, AslaDain. Did you see whips and anger there?
> 
> Jesus knows the heart of a woman. He knew how to speak to it.


yes, but none of them were his wives. men are supposed to love their wives as Jesus loved the church, as you quoted yourself. when the church was deep in inequity, Jesus cleaned it out. he had to rebuke those who were turning the church into a simple business. if talking and appealing to the money changers would have worked to get them to stop, im sure he would have.

in a marriage, we have to do the same thing.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> I think in most marriages the man has the edge. Male dominance has been the standard in human societies for most of our existence, afaik.
> 
> Women certainly have their own power. But I think it is more limited than a man's. My perception, anyway.


So women who cheat are helpless victims of their husbands failure to meet their deepest emotional needs?

http://youtu.be/pBz0BTb83H8


----------



## Chaparral

You need to keep your powder dry. Her and her boyfriend could have broken up and gotten back together twenty times since July. You need to find out what's going on now before you make any decisions.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> yes, but none of them were his wives. men are supposed to love their wives as Jesus loved the church, as you quoted yourself. when the church was deep in inequity, Jesus cleaned it out. he had to rebuke those who were turning the church into a simple business. if talking and appealing to the money changers would have worked to get them to stop, im sure he would have.
> 
> in a marriage, we have to do the same thing.


AslaDain.

Husbands are to live with their wives with _understanding._ Transparency, absolutely. But with understanding, too.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> So women who cheat are helpless victims of their husbands failure to meet their deepest emotional needs?
> 
> http://youtu.be/pBz0BTb83H8


Cheating is not okay, and women who do it will suffer for it. 

And that is the main thing, that they suffer, right?


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> AslaDain.
> 
> Husbands are to live with their wives with _understanding._ Transparency, absolutely. But with understanding, too.


i dont disagree. but trying to meet her emotional needs does not address the issue of her inequity. 

it would be like Jesus trying to convince the money changers that they can make money through a legitimate business without tainting the church when they would rather do nothing and use the church to line their own pockets. he might as well have handed them a bag of gold so that they wouldnt need money any more. but it wouldnt have stopped them, and it wouldnt have made it clear that what they were doing was not tolerable. as long as they could deny the inherent sin of their actions, they wouldnt have any reason to stop. 

Jesus was without sin and yet he got angry with the money changers. thats because he valued the church enough to stop the sin that threatened it. and then he was able to nurture the church to see it grow strong.

as husbands, we are charged with keeping our marriage clean. sometimes, we have to get angry at the sin like Jesus did in order to clean the marriage so that we CAN nurture it. THAT is how we protect the marriage and care for it when faced with infidelity. we do not cut them loose and wish them well. we do not tell them that its ok, ill just start another marriage somewhere else. Jesus did not start another church. he cleansed the one he had because it was in his charge and he is the head of it. and so we should cleanse the marriage we have if we are to be like Christ.


----------



## jld

Just do it with some humility, okay?


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Of course it is not okay. Do you think OP's wife is happy with herself? Do you not think she would like to go to him and confess?
> 
> He feels the weight she is carrying. Yet he will not unburden her.
> 
> I am trying to bring these two together, NF. All of my advice has been geared toward emotional connection. But if it simply is not possible, then divorce would be a kindness to both of them. The cleaner and less acrimonious, the better.





jld said:


> Cheating is not okay, and women who do it will suffer for it.
> 
> And that is the main thing, that they suffer, right?


I notice you avoided the question, so I'll ask it again directly.

Do you believe that it's always the husbands fault if a wife cheats?


----------



## Chaparral

After he figures out what is really going on he needs to tell her to leave, not him. She cut him off, that's a bad red flG for a physical relationship. It also happened concurrently with affair. What he did doesn't remotely compare to what she has done and is still doing to him.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I was doing okay until about 30 minutes ago. The hollowness is hard. I have people all around me and I just wanted to get out. So I left. This doesn't feel real. My wife has feelings for someone else...Someone took her heart and took it effectively enough that for the past 6 months it has been this way. When I first came across what I found I felt a little empowered...it at least gave me some clarity. Now it just hurts. Now I feel literally like a scared little kid inside. I want to go get my son and hold him. I want the phase done and over. 

I'm not afraid to confront her. I hate that it is Christmas. My counselor this morning gave similar advice about being firm but compassionate. It basically depends on what I want. I want this to go away. I want to go home to my family and know they are my family and not when the last time I will ever see us a happy family will be, or if it has already passed. The girls won't be back from their dads until Christmas. I need to keep it together until then.

But I don't want to. I want to confront her tonight. Not in a mean, hurtful way but as the leader of the family...I want to ask her if she has given her heart to someone else... Just flat out ask her. I want to see her phone. I want to give her the chance to tell me everything and let her...and let her cry...and see that she still cares. 

I want a lot of things but I don't know how or when. Actually I still want to do it tonight but I don't think it will be the best time. I just want answers. I want my life back. It was a beautiful life. It wasn't easy but I was thankful for it.

She posted another Bible verse on FB. Talked about loving one another. I just want to scream "so why aren't you loving me?? Why are we going to break up this family??"

It's gray and chilly and drizzling. It matches how I feel. 

I know this is a moment of weakness for me. That is just where I am at for the moment. It will pass. 

I'm praying for wisdom and boldness and compassion. 

I'm praying for my family.

This is just a "down" from my ups and downs. It will pass. Thanks to everyone in this.


----------



## farsidejunky

This is going to go against what most posters would say here I think, but you know enough to confront. You know she's given her heart to another man at least temporarily. All the investigating is only going to the clarify the depths of the betrayal, but the fact that you were betrayed is completely clear at this point. 

Firm and compassionate is perfect. And there's no reason you can't do it tonight. 

Limbo is hell and you will be in that state until you confront. 

Let me reiterate this though. Under no circumstances are you to reveal how you found out. Telling her gives the ability to tell you only what's in her journal. Then she can trickle truth you and you'll never get to the bottom of it if she wants to be deceptive. But if you are vague about how you obtained your information, it will give you a better shot at getting more truth from her.

ETA: I AM also praying for your family brother.


----------



## Chaparral

Things still don't add up since the on broke it off. That may have just been a ploy to get her to do whatbhe wanted. It is imperative to find out what has gone on since. Where does he live? Is he married? Are they seeing each other?

He's the reason she hasn't recommitted to her marriage with you none the wiser. If you confront her now, all you will get is lies and blameshifting.

You owe to yourself and the kids to pull yourself together and do the necessary detective work.

You can bet your a$$ her girlfriend knows and has been toxic to your marriage.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, can you get a list of names of people going on the mission trip?


----------



## farsidejunky

Chap:

But wouldn't the lies and blame shifting just give him exactly the answer he needs to know? Then its just simply time to file.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

This is what I had in my head:
"Wife, we need to talk. I am saying this as the head of this family, not as an angry husband, a hurt husband or a jealous one but as the one who loves you competely and loves this family.
You will not get the rest you want until you clear your heart and clear your mind. I want you to feel open but I need you to be honest.
I know what is going on. I may not know everything, but I know."

If she doesn't open up, I'd probably add one more line that "I know about OM, does he still have your heart?"

I'd be done after that (if i can keep my mouth shut).

That it isn't it verbatim but along the lines of what I want to say.

I won't reveal my source.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I see what you are saying Chap.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I can probably get a list of who is going. Once we are at the point of dropping his name, I will be following through to find out exactly who he is.


----------



## karole

Do you think the OM could be going on the trip?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I could imagine it at this point.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I can probably get a list of who is going. Once we are at the point of dropping his name, I will be following through to find out exactly who he is.


You need to suck it up until you have more info. I understand how you feel, but if you want to recover your marriage you can't go off half ****ed. The more you confront her with the more likely she is to surrender immediately. You have enough right now to end your marriage, but I don't think you have enough to recover it.

Run a background check on OM, don't wait until after you confront. Go into the confrontation knowing more about him than your wife does.


----------



## vellocet

Nucking Futs said:


> I notice you avoided the question, so I'll ask it again directly.
> 
> Do you believe that it's always the husbands fault if a wife cheats?


She has already said in another thread a while back that it is. And in contrast when the husband cheats, its not the woman's fault and she should leave him.


----------



## karole

vellocet said:


> She has already said in another thread a while back that it is. And in contrast when the husband cheats, its not the woman's fault and she should leave him.


And I believe that thread was LOCKED by the mods.


----------



## vellocet

karole said:


> And I believe that thread was LOCKED by the mods.


And thank god


----------



## Blonde

Nucking Futs said:


> Don't let Blonde see you say this.


On the contrary, I "liked" JLD's post 

I think husbands have a great deal of power, a great deal. Very long long explanation of my theological position... here.

This is what I said earlier which bears repeating under the circumstances:



Blonde said:


> Contrary to all the assumptions by others that your W is a "bad girl", I wonder if she has decided she wants to be GOOD and she does not see you as a good match with that desire (based on your track record)?
> 
> *Perhaps she is comparing you with others who look "good" ? *


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

If I hold off on confronting until I have more to go on...would it be counterproductive to ask her, if the time comes, if she has given her heart to someone else and leave it at whatever answer she gives? I have plenty of reasons to ask that aside from what I have recently found out.


----------



## Chaparral

Odds are she will lie. Try to find the answer somewhere else.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Yeah, I dont know if hearing her lie, knowing it is a lie, will help me stiffen my resolve or just further the hurt.


----------



## Blonde

She had a crush, maybe some guy on a forum who appeared Godly?

and you used porn and met with an old GF.

When my H was using porn and strip clubs, I fantasized about an upstanding Godly moral man who was in my life at the time. He would never have acted on it as he was Godly. Had he acted on it, he would no longer be an upstanding, Godly moral man.

As a Christian wife, I have always wanted an H who is Godly and moral, who has good character and integrity. Men who have those things are very attractive to me.

Forums are nice because there is a safe distance to avoid undue temptation :biggrinangelA:


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

She did do it to her previous husband. Im well aware of that. I never really regretted it...she was "the one" and he had apparently abused her. 

I would almost think she could still pull together if this hadn't been going on for 6 months. 

I don't know how this "godlier than I" guy could have got to my house and had sex with my wife while we were separated. The kids were there or else she was working. 

Reading what she wrote, she also has a negative outlook that I wish she could change that aspect...we have a great life ...all things considered, and can do a lot of good instead of spreading more hurt and dysfunction looking for "the better life."
She made a comment about having to live "unhappily ever after, again" but with me. 

Things had been making slow steps in the right direction since I came home. When it is time, at least the confrontation should lay a lot of the questions about direction to rest. 

I'm taking my son out tonight. Hopefully that will get us through the night. I do think I will try to hold out until after Christmas for the sake of everyone else involved.


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I don't know how this "godlier than I" guy could have got to my house and had sex with my wife while we were separated. The kids were there or else she was working.


The assumption that they "had sex" is huge and unwarranted IMO

Just remember that your advisers on this thread speak out of their baggage. If their wife had sex outside of the M then they see that everywhere.

That said the observation that your W did it with you and may be repeating a pattern is a valid observation. (I hope not and I don't hear it in her new spiritual conscientiousness but I could be wrong...)


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I don't think they did either. But I also would have swore a few days ago that there wasn't anyone else. I'm a bit worn down today. My mind wanders a lot.


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Reading what she wrote, she also has a negative outlook that I wish she could change that aspect...


For your comfort, as a W I can easily feel extremely negative and hopeless about our M and H has a lot of power to turn that around by speaking life (which is what JLD advocates- fill her emotional tank and etc)

H speaks of his commitment to me. He speaks of our shared experiences and the children we share. When I am struggling with what I perceive as a deficiency he asks me "What does _____ look like?"

How about calling and booking Marriage Help Program For Couples as a Christmas present? They will do a telephone interview your W and ask her point blank if there is any third party in the M which would be a disqualification.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

That is encouraging, thanks.

Ive been told not to sign someone else up for relationship help, that they will usually rebel against it.

There is a marriage seminar at a local church in a couple weeks. I can feel her out the next couple of days as I process everything and get my thoughts more organized trying to get through the holidays.


----------



## Blonde

The way Retrouvaille works is you initiate and they call her to make sure she is on board. So your registration is not complete until they get her OK. 

If you register, I would send her a link to the website and tell her they are going to call her. If her heart is the least bit open to you and she looks at the website, I think she would agree to attend.

My H initiated that way which ministered to me- made me feel that he cared about our M and wanted it to work.

Several of the presenting couples had been through adultery and reached the other side (which we have also been through)


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> There is a marriage seminar at a local church in a couple weeks.


Retrouvaille is targeted to troubled M on the brink of D and has an 85% success rate. Marriage Done Right

Personally I don't have much confidence in some of the M conferences out there (along the lines of the JM debate earlier- if they are heavy on wife submission *gagging barfing emoticon*)


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Foolscotton, I do agree with you. I can and will be direct. I planned on doing it tonight but I can see the rational in waiting until after Chirstmas. It's better for the kids and I may be able to have a little more to go on by then. But it will be hard to wait that long. I'm going to try. But if it happens that I don't, I have enough to go on as it is.


----------



## Tobyboy

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Foolscotton, I do agree with you. I can and will be direct. I planned on doing it tonight but I can see the rational in waiting until after Chirstmas. It's better for the kids and I may be able to have a little more to go on by then. But it will be hard to wait that long. I'm going to try. But if it happens that I don't, I have enough to go on as it is.


You'll never get the answers you seek from your WW, at least not in your initial confrontation. Your just setting yourself up for more hurt and lies. Find out the truth first, who is this OM? How did she meet him? Is he married also? 
Find his phone number and run a reverse search. Your WW has been lying, cheating, demonizing you for months!!! She will not give you what you deserve.....the truth!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Can you be more specific about what you saw in the letters? What was he telling her? Did he say why he was cutting it off? She certainly didn't rebound to you. How long after they supposedly cut it off did she ask you to leave?


----------



## Tobyboy

Chaparral said:


> Can you be more specific about what you saw in the letters? What was he telling her? Did he say why he was cutting it off? She certainly didn't rebound to you. How long after they supposedly cut it off did she ask you to leave?


Yes. Answers to these questions will tell us a lot. Having you move out was her way of showing the other man that she is a free woman.


----------



## Roselyn

I'm reading your posts and will summarize as I understand it. You met your wife when she was 18 in college. You didn't date her and she married someone else. She contacted you when she had troubles in her marriage. At this time, she had already 2 children in her first marriage. You had an affair with her before she divorced. She went back to her husband.

She returned to you after her divorce. You married her and had one child. You looked up previous girlfriends, met at least one with her children, and looked at porn. This upset your wife. You separated from your wife and returned home as you can't afford to finance two households.

Your wife has an affair that you found out, based on letters that you read. You don't know if this is an emotional or physical affair. She says to you that she married you too soon after her first marriage. She also says that she doesn't love you anymore or says that she never loved you.

You don't want a divorce because you are a Christian. You worry about your son. You keep on insisting that your "wife is the one". You keep putting your wife on a pedestal and thinks of her as "The Prize".

I believe that she is a serial cheater, hiding behind the veil of being a good Christian. You have the "knight in shining armor" syndrome and she has the "Rapunzel" syndrome. She constantly needs to be rescued. There was a poster here who said "my horse is getting old, my armor is getting rusty, and the sunset is fading away". I believe that you need to get some sense of reality. This is not going to get better for you.

Get a divorce attorney and see a psychologist to get your mind straight. Save yourself.


----------



## Kolors

And you're right, in a few more years she will get bored again and do this once more.

Cheaters cheat, it's their nature. The mean ones blame you for their infidelity.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Ding! Ding! Ding! 
Roselyn gets the prize. You summarized about 85% correct. I came home becuase it was my home and that is where my family is. 

So I went back to where I found the first letters...and found a LOT more. It is the leader, from what I can tell, of the mission trip. Not the local guy, the guy above him that lives somewhere else.

I also found the divorce papers she was working on (dated end of November).

She didn't want to defile our marriage but she knows she will have a hard time keeping her hands off him. 

I could go into more, but it makes my stomach sick and I dont want to give missionaries any worse of a reputation for those reading this. They are mostly all great people.

Apparently my wife is not one of them.

I have I get back on the road now but I think something will still go down tonight. I will still be loving and give her the opportunity to come clean. I doubt I will tell her anythig I know, just that I know and she can decide what she wants to tell me vs what I "will find out for myself."

Right now I'm on the empowered feeling...I'm sure the hurt will catch up soon.

I still pray...If you do, please do.


----------



## Chaparral

ChumpLady.com - Leave a cheater, gain a life

reality check


----------



## Chaparral

Its unfortunate what you are going through. Its also unfortunate that folks on this board like to disparage posters that post a lot in the infidelity section.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Ding! Ding! Ding!
> Roselyn gets the prize. You summarized about 85% correct. I came home becuase it was my home and that is where my family is.
> 
> *So I went back to where I found the first letters...and found a LOT more. It is the leader, from what I can tell, of the mission trip. Not the local guy, the guy above him that lives somewhere else.*
> 
> I also found the divorce papers she was working on (dated end of November).
> 
> *She didn't want to defile our marriage but she knows she will have a hard time keeping her hands off him. *
> 
> I could go into more, but it makes my stomach sick and I dont want to give missionaries any worse of a reputation for those reading this. They are mostly all great people.
> 
> Apparently my wife is not one of them.
> 
> I have I get back on the road now but I think something will still go down tonight. I will still be loving and give her the opportunity to come clean. I doubt I will tell her anythig I know, just that I know and she can decide what she wants to tell me vs what I "will find out for myself."
> 
> Right now I'm on the empowered feeling...I'm sure the hurt will catch up soon.
> 
> I still pray...If you do, please do.


Do you have anything that shows that he reciprocates, or is it all a one-sided infatuation by your wife?


----------



## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Ding! Ding! Ding!
> Roselyn gets the prize. You summarized about 85% correct. I came home becuase it was my home and that is where my family is.
> 
> So I went back to where I found the first letters...and found a LOT more. It is the leader, from what I can tell, of the mission trip. Not the local guy, the guy above him that lives somewhere else.
> 
> I also found the divorce papers she was working on (dated end of November).
> 
> She didn't want to defile our marriage but she knows she will have a hard time keeping her hands off him.
> 
> I could go into more, but it makes my stomach sick and I dont want to give missionaries any worse of a reputation for those reading this. They are mostly all great people.
> 
> Apparently my wife is not one of them.
> 
> I have I get back on the road now but I think something will still go down tonight. I will still be loving and give her the opportunity to come clean. I doubt I will tell her anythig I know, just that I know and she can decide what she wants to tell me vs what I "will find out for myself."
> 
> Right now I'm on the empowered feeling...I'm sure the hurt will catch up soon.
> 
> I still pray...If you do, please do.


When I finally confronted my stbx about her affair, I did it at night, all I got was a few wild stories that didn't make any sense making me the bad guy and she shut down. By 10:00 the next morning she had filed for divorce. I gave her the opportunity to come clean and I should have done the "scorched earth" angle. 

Giving them the opportunity rarely gets the results we hope for and often backfires.


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> It is the leader, from what I can tell, of the mission trip. Not the local guy, the guy above him that lives somewhere else.
> 
> I also found the divorce papers she was working on (dated end of November).
> 
> She didn't want to defile our marriage but she knows she will have a hard time keeping her hands off him.
> 
> I could go into more, but it makes my stomach sick and I dont want to give missionaries any worse of a reputation for those reading this. They are mostly all great people..


Not necessarily reciprocal from him...

Hate to disillusion you but H was unfaithful with a prostitute when he was a church supported missionary.

Bitter taste in my mouth about those "christian" leaders 

However, not *necessarily* reciprocal. She might just be fantasizing because of his Godly moral integrity. BTDT


----------



## Blonde

OR
she got to fantasizing about this mission leader because her H was using porn and visiting old GF's and the mission leader is a Godly man of integrity...

She's hungry for* pure *love


----------



## farsidejunky

I am sorry, OP. Any hope I had for your wife went away after disclosing the OM. 

I will have to defer to my previous comments that this is your wife's MO.

Confront sooner rather than later. You truly have all you need.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Everything I found was from her. Letters to or about him or letters to or about me. It does look like she was looking for island resorts...the crazy thing is, it is the same place we went. Same place.

Apparently he is aware of her feelings, she writes as if they talk but nothing actually from him.

I can't recall who posted about going scorched earth, I think it was honcho but can't check on my phone. 

I may wait until at least tomorrow but then we are one day from Christmas.

She does seem to fantasize about being in a good relationship with a good guy. Honestly, I love her and am a good guy...had to read NMMNG. I don't know how it will go down now that I am at home.

If I talk to her tonight I had planned on just asking her to tell me anything she needs to get off her chest. I've said similar before. I meant it honestly then. I mean it now too, but I just know a lot more than I did.

I feel a lot more confident that I know have an upper hand...I don't want the upper hand to crush her. I do want it so that I can think things through and see, as silly as it may sound, if there is anything redemptive left. I love her but I know at this point I am the sucker. She did to me what she did to her first husband. 

I saw them all tonight, her ex'es family. We are actually pretty hospitable. They seemed surprised to see me so Lord knows what they know but they also seemed kind of happy. Nice at least. They probably know I'm now sucker #2. 

They see the girls run up and hug me and one of the new husbands in the clan was a good friend from college. 

Point being, if worse came to worse in a custody suit, I almost think they would side with me.

I still don't want to see this family destroyed. I don't want to see my wife destroyed. Regardless of what she was willing, apparently, to do to me.

When the time comes, I will be direct and firm and compassionate but not weak.

All my sins have been exploited...seemingly for her gain. I have nothing to hide anymore. The tables are officially turned it seems.


----------



## Kolors

Stuff went nuts as soon as I found messages from my ex to a couple other guys and caught her running around with one of them. She was quick to first say it's innocent friend stuff then blamed me for her inability to keep her vagina to herself.

Needless to say, she's shagging one of them openly now after she swore they were like brother and sister.

Then again, this is the south.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

You won't be. It will be before or just after Christmas. I understand the rational to wait until after Christmas. I didn't plan on that until I heard it from enough people, including my counselor so I've given it more weight.


----------



## Duguesclin

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I feel a lot more confident that I know have an upper hand...I don't want the upper hand to crush her. I do want it so that I can think things through and see, as silly as it may sound, if there is anything redemptive left. I love her but I know at this point I am the sucker. She did to me what she did to her first husband.


How do you have the upper hand? She already kicked you out once. She has filled out 1/3 of the divorce paper.

To be honest you hand looks pretty weak. You want to keep the marriage, she does not.

You can confront her if you want, but the conversation may be pretty short. She may show you the door, especially when she realizes you have been snooping through her stuff.

I would not keep secrets from her. I would be open and transparent. I would work on rebuilding the relationship by making emotional deposits. You need to earn her respect.

I know these suggestions won't sit well with the infidelity specialists, but I do not think you have many options.


----------



## honcho

Duguesclin said:


> How do you have the upper hand? She already kicked you out once. She has filled out 1/3 of the divorce paper.
> 
> To be honest you hand looks pretty weak. You want to keep the marriage, she does not.
> 
> You can confront her if you want, but the conversation may be pretty short. She may show you the door, especially when she realizes you have been snooping through her stuff.
> 
> I would not keep secrets from her. I would be open and transparent. I would work on rebuilding the relationship by making emotional deposits. You need to earn her respect.
> 
> I know these suggestions won't sit well with the infidelity specialists, but I do not think you have many options.


His upper hand is knowing some of the truth right now. Its a far better position than chasing around in circles. Its not really an upper hand but in the short term that's how it feels. 

He doesn't even know if he wants to keep the marriage at the moment and this is the choice he must make and he is going to bounce from one end of the spectrum to the other. Her having paperwork partially filled out is meaningless, it takes about 30 minutes to fill out the initial paperwork and about all you really need is a name. All the financial stuff doesn't need to be filled out on day one. She could have filed at anytime. 

She is riding the fence, keeping a hold of this dream of the OM and keeping the hubby as plan B. She has no intention of getting serious about divorce until after this missionary trip. 

Him snooping thru her stuff is the least of his problems and almost everyone of the "infidelity experts" have told him to dig. She will get mad and accuse him of spying but then look what he found. Which is the bigger problem? 

You have never experienced infidelity, thank your lucky stars you never have because it is one the "most non fun" things you will ever deal with and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.


----------



## Nucking Futs

You're doing the worst of both worlds here. Premature confrontation is a marriage killer, it just leads to more lying or at best a little trickle truth. Mark my words, if you proceed like this you'll end up divorced whether that's what you want or not. And in 6 months you'll be one of the chorus of posters in CWI the chimes in on threads like this saying "don't do what I did".


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Nucking Futs said:


> You're doing the worst of both worlds here. Premature confrontation is a marriage killer, it just leads to more lying or at best a little trickle truth. Mark my words, if you proceed like this you'll end up divorced whether that's what you want or not. And in 6 months you'll be one of the chorus of posters in CWI the chimes in on threads like this saying "don't do what I did".








Yup. There are Strategies that work. They have been proven to work. But you have to be willing to follow them. Hint: niceing her doesn't work. Filling her tank will backfire. Seen it a hundred times.


----------



## honcho

Nucking Futs said:


> You're doing the worst of both worlds here. Premature confrontation is a marriage killer, it just leads to more lying or at best a little trickle truth. Mark my words, if you proceed like this you'll end up divorced whether that's what you want or not. And in 6 months you'll be one of the chorus of posters in CWI the chimes in on threads like this saying "don't do what I did".



Don't do what I did.....too many of us have already learned the hard way.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I told her I felt something wasn't right, that something is going on. She can tell me or I will find out for myself but that is rather her tell me. She said there was nothing, repeatedly. I brought up the mission trip. She denied anything.

We got irritated, and then we've been wrapping Christmas gifts ever since. 

Not what I anticipated but not a bad night all things considered.


----------



## tom67

Nucking Futs said:


> You're doing the worst of both worlds here. Premature confrontation is a marriage killer, it just leads to more lying or at best a little trickle truth. Mark my words, if you proceed like this you'll end up divorced whether that's what you want or not. And in 6 months you'll be one of the chorus of posters in CWI the chimes in on threads like this saying "don't do what I did".


The Book

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.

That's all.


----------



## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I told her I felt something wasn't right, that something is going on. She can tell me or I will find out for myself but that is rather her tell me. She said there was nothing, repeatedly. I brought up the mission trip. She denied anything.
> 
> We got irritated, and then we've been wrapping Christmas gifts ever since.
> 
> Not what I anticipated but not a bad night all things considered.


She wont tell and she will just get better at hiding it. You have raised her suspicions.


----------



## tom67

honcho said:


> She wont tell and she will just get better at hiding it. You have raised her suspicions.


Take the power back.
Come on strength is very attractive.
Fake it act like you are ready to move on.


----------



## Tobyboy

What is the OM married or in a relationship?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

I don't understand how you have her letters to him. Were they not sent? And you found nothing from him?


----------



## farsidejunky

Checking in on you, brother.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I couldn't finish my last post in time and looks like it got deleted.

Last night when I brought things up, I did end up saying that I knew something was going on. I didn't know exactly what but something. I said that "you don't not talk to someone for 6 months without talking to somoeone else."

She told me i could see her phone. To me that means she is prepared for this kind of situation.

I told her I think there is something to this mission trip. I said it doesn't make sense that a Christian mother of 3 would go outside the country for a week to help others when she leaves a broken home behind in the process. She said she hardly knows anyone going and told me the ones she knows for sure. She said I could come to a meeting (he wouldn't be there), that I could go ON the mission trip...that seems more to alleviate the situation knowing I probably wouldn't actually go.

I finally asked her if there is, or has, been anyone else that has had her interest since we've been married. She said no. Multiple times. I saw where it was going and just said "okay. I asked, you answered, that's all I can do."

I went to go to bed and something told me (or whatever) to go back in a wrap gifts with her. At first she didn't want me to. No did anyway. Things got better. She asked if I was coming to her family's Christmas, that she assumed I was.

We went to bed around midnight. She slept in our bed this time. 

There is more but that is it in a nutshell for the time I have before work starts.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Chap - the letters to him were apparently never sent. Or not yet. Just like mine to me, it looks like.


----------



## Duguesclin

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I couldn't finish my last post in time and looks like it got deleted.
> 
> Last night when I brought things up, I did end up saying that I knew something was going on. I didn't know exactly what but something. I said that "you don't not talk to someone for 6 months without talking to somoeone else."
> 
> She told me i could see her phone. To me that means she is prepared for this kind of situation.
> 
> I told her I think there is something to this mission trip. I said it doesn't make sense that a Christian mother of 3 would go outside the country for a week to help others when she leaves a broken home behind in the process. She said she hardly knows anyone going and told me the ones she knows for sure. She said I could come to a meeting (he wouldn't be there), that I could go ON the mission trip...that seems more to alleviatebtje situation knowing I probably wouldn't actually go.
> 
> I finally asked her if there is, or has, been anyone else that has had her interest since we've been married. She said no. Multiple times. I saw where it was going and just said "okay. I asked, you answered, that's all I can do."
> 
> I went to go to bed and something told me (or whatever) to go back in a wrap gifts with her. At first she didn't want me to. No did anyway. Things got better. She asked if I was coming to her family's Christmas, that she assumed I was.
> 
> We went to bed around midnight. She slept in our bed this time.
> 
> There is more but that is it in a nutshell for the time I have before work starts.


OP, I see 2 people lying here. Why do you think it is OK for you to lie?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

If you're asking why i didn't play my full hand, I wanted to see what she would tell me without backing her into a corner with all of my info. I also didn't want to make Christmas horrible by putting everything out on the table the day or two after I come across everything I came across.
But also, I know that I don't know everything. I think I found the guy. I can't be sure. What if I played my cards and it turned out that the email address was a random note that wasn't related, or it was related to the mission trip but not the same guy. If I did that, she would have known where I got my information from.

When all of this happened, beginning two days ago, I had already felt like I was seeing small steps by my wife. After last night's discussion, I saw more small steps. Heck, it sounds menial I'm sure, but last night I felt her leg against mine. Used to be, as soon as she felt me touch her, or her accidentally touch me (when things were bad, before I left) she would immediately take it away. BEFORE things got bad, that was often her indication that she was up for some attention. It could have been a fluke but at least she didn't immediately draw back.

This morning we joked a little and she was putting away my clothes...a week ago she wasn't even making me dinner.

So I guess, given the situation, I didn't feel the need to drop any "bombs" on the situation. For now, we are all spending Christmas together peacefully and if it goes south quick, I have an appt with my attorney next week and I have new information that will at least discredit anything if she were to be mean or try to control things all of a sudden.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> If you're asking why i didn't play my full hand, I wanted to see what she would tell me without backing her into a corner with all of my info. I also didn't want to make Christmas horrible by putting everything out on the table the day or two after I come across everything I came across.


Still, if the shoe were on the other foot, how would you want to be treated?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I think I would have wanted the same chance instead of just jumped on out of the blue.

I felt it was more compassionate, I would still like her to tell me.


----------



## Duguesclin

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> If you're asking why i didn't play my full hand, I wanted to see what she would tell me without backing her into a corner with all of my info.


So your lying is justifiable. I hope you will listen and understand her justification like you would want her to accept yours.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I think things were handled as well they could have been, the current situation is better than I assumed it would be at this point and she still knows that I love her and we had a good memory from last night. 

Do you think, that because I knew more, I should have told her exactly what I knew? What if I had been wrong on what I thought I knew?

Idk that I did exactly that right thing. I just know that for now, things aren't as bad as they have been, when they should have otherwise been much worse. They may likely still get much worse. I still love that woman. I don't know for sure why she wrote the letters and never sent them. Maybe she still will. Maybe it was therapeutic. I was told to write her a letter that said exactly what I felt, but knowing that I would never give it to her so that I wouldn't hold anything back. That was a homework assignment given by my first counselor.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Duguesclin said:


> So your lying is justifiable. I hope you will listen and understand her justification like you would want her to accept yours.


Unbe-****ing-lievable! Are you seriously going to sit there in your ivory tower, having never experienced what Still is going through, and throw stones at him for not telling her everything he knows before he knows enough for it to do him any good? Are you really going to try to guilt him into disarming himself, throwing away any advantage he might have to someone who he _knows_, not suspects but _knows_, has been lying and torturing him for 6 fricken' months straight? Really?

You might as well tell him to just cut his balls off and deliver them to her on a silver platter.


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> *Maybe it was therapeutic. *I was told to write her a letter that said exactly what I felt, but knowing that I would never give it to her so that I wouldn't hold anything back. That was a homework assignment given by my first counselor.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/85369-she-said-w-man-i-dont-love.html

Bagdon turned it around and it wasn't through "take no prisoners" harshness like some of your advisers are advocating


----------



## prettygirlpa

Yes you should go back to you house. That's your home to.


----------



## Tobyboy

Now she is gaslighting you or worst, giving you false hope, that your doubting yourself from what you know is true. 
Fact- she is a liar
- a cheater
- a manipulator
- remorseful less 
- conniving 
- backstabber
You deserve better than this!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Duguesclin

Nucking Futs said:


> Unbe-****ing-lievable! Are you seriously going to sit there in your ivory tower, having never experienced what Still is going through, and throw stones at him for not telling her everything he knows before he knows enough for it to do him any good? Are you really going to try to guilt him into disarming himself, throwing away any advantage he might have to someone who he _knows_, not suspects but _knows_, has been lying and torturing him for 6 fricken' months straight? Really?
> 
> You might as well tell him to just cut his balls off and deliver them to her on a silver platter.


You all see that he has the upper hand, but I don't.

He got caught watching porn and texting an old girlfriend and was probably exposed right away. Now, he is catching his wife with impure thoughts (I grant you that) and is trying to sh!t test his wife on how much she is going to acknowledge.

I would be her, I would not be impressed. I think she had given up on the marriage but may have warmed up lately to his work. When he pulls up his sneaky ways after Christmas, I can only imagine the result.


----------



## As'laDain

this is starting to sound more like a secret crush...

is there any evidence that the other man even knows anything about it?


----------



## honcho

Duguesclin said:


> You all see that he has the upper hand, but I don't.
> 
> He got caught watching porn and texting an old girlfriend and was probably exposed right away. Now, he is catching his wife with impure thoughts (I grant you that) and is trying to sh!t test his wife on how much she is going to acknowledge.
> 
> I would be her, I would not be impressed. I think she had given up on the marriage but may have warmed up lately to his work. When he pulls up his sneaky ways after Christmas, I can only imagine the result.


Her sneaky ways perfectly tolerable and its all ok?


----------



## Duguesclin

honcho said:


> Her sneaky ways perfectly tolerable and its all ok?


It is not. The marriage has serious issues.

It is not by using those sneaky tactics, whether from her or him, that things are going to get better.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Duguesclin said:


> It is not. The marriage has serious issues.
> 
> It is not by using those sneaky tactics, whether from her or him, that things are going to get better.


She's lying to him. There's ample evidence of that. Are you so sure of her innate goodness, are you so sure that she's only responding to what he's done, not actually the hardened cheater that the rest of us see, that you think he should give up the only advantage he has? Are you aware of how badly he can be taken to the cleaners if you're wrong about her intentions?

You and jld are giving advice on a topic in which you have no experience, that directly contradicts the advice of people who have been there and done that. Any man who follows that advice, and I specify man because this bad advice is only directed to betrayed husbands, is likely to get his head handed to him in a divorce in which his wayward wife has the upper hand. Where are you going to be then? Are you going to be in his corner? I doubt it, because right now you're in hers. 

Maybe you could help the person asking for help rather than the person who's sticking the knife in his back.


----------



## Duguesclin

Nucking Futs said:


> She's lying to him.


Hasn't he lied to her, thus the title of this thread?

I am not sure why she is worse than he is.

Justifying his current ways and tactics based on his wife's written letters and journal entries is dangerous.

I do not play football, but I still watch it and have an opinion about it.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Duguesclin said:


> Hasn't he lied to her, thus the title of this thread?


*I plan to go back home...I doubt she will like it. Advice please.*

:scratchhead:


----------



## Vulcan2013

I found Bagdon's thread very inspiring. One thing - his wife wasn't in an affair. OP's wife is certainly giving her heart (and maybe more) to another man. No matter his faults, that is not OK. 

For an affair, investigation and exposure are necessary, "take no bullsh!t", not "take no prisoners". As long as that is in the background, she can't be niced back, it will only creep her out. 

OP's sins are in the open, she is masking, in an adulterous mindset, while pretending to be pure. He may need more evidence, but I think the letters are enough.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

At this point, I am currently happy that Christmas may not have the scarring on it for years to come that I had seen coming just a couple of days ago.

At this point I am just happy that I could get through a full days work without feeling sick and hollow and empty.

After last night and seeing the glimpses of the wife that I used to know, I almost forgot about the letters and the reality of the situation. 

I know, at least I think I know, what I am up against but the moments where I can feel "fine", I'll take them for now.

There isn't any hard evidence that the other guy knows. I can find the guy that seems to match who he should be...handsome missionary leader type...but he only has a youtube channel of mission trips from a couple years ago, and a profile on a photo site (with only one photo, the one that is used for the youtube site which is a headshot).

In the videos that I've seen, which I haven't watched most, but he isn't in them.

The reason I think he is somewhat involved is because of the comments he has consistently made like "hello gorgeous" that she refers to. I think the resorts are connected...she has one circled, I have the list of 4. If the time comes, I will be calling each one to check for reservations. For now, I'm okay with Christmas being okay.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm not indicating that I think things are fine, just that Christmas will be okay. 

Things are far from anything resembling fine. I get it.


----------



## Blonde

Vulcan2013 said:


> I found Bagdon's thread very inspiring. One thing - his wife wasn't in an affair. OP's wife is certainly giving her heart (and maybe more) to another man. No matter his faults, that is not OK.
> 
> For an affair, investigation and exposure are necessary, "take no bullsh!t", not "take no prisoners". As long as that is in the background, she can't be niced bake, it will only creep her out.
> 
> OP's sins are in the open, she is masking, in an adulterous mindset, while pretending to be pure. He may need more evidence, but I think the letters are enough.


Bagdon's wife wrote some fantasy stuff in her journal IIRC.

As I read it, I am not at all convinced that OP's wife has done any more than fantasize and pine for Mr Godly Missionary Man. She wrote letters that were never sent. It's all one sided crushing.

IMO whacking off to porn, seeing and old GF, and comparing his wife to his harem of former sexual partners... IMO, that's worse.

IMO he'd be a major hypocrite to hold his wife to standards way higher than what he has lived.

IMO they are a matched set, this can work, and he should listen to JLD and Dug way more closely than the "STONE THE EVIL CHEATING WENCH" crowd.


----------



## bigbearsfan

Blonde said:


> Bagdon's wife wrote some fantasy stuff in her journal IIRC.
> 
> As I read it, I am not at all convinced that OP's wife has done any more than fantasize and pine for Mr Godly Missionary Man. She wrote letters that were never sent. It's all one sided crushing.
> 
> IMO whacking off to porn, seeing and old GF, and comparing his wife to his harem of former sexual partners... IMO, that's worse.
> 
> IMO he'd be a major hypocrite to hold his wife to standards way higher than what he has lived.
> 
> IMO they are a matched set, this can work, and he should listen to JLD and Dug way more closely than the "STONE THE EVIL CHEATING WENCH" crowd.


Really? Having a crush is ok to destroy your marriage, throw your spouse out of their house and risk the emotional and mental status of her kids? 
What's next, it will be totally acceptable to kill your spouse so you can fulfill your dreams of being with someone you fantasize about or have or a crush on?:scratchhead:


----------



## Blonde

Her spouse was seeing an old GF. I would throw H out of the house for that.

The only red flag I wonder on is the sexlessness for 6 months. But that *could* be guilt over how their M started (adulterous affair). She told her H that she felt new spiritual conviction over that history

I'm not on board with "scorched earth". I don't hang around at CWI but I wonder if that ever even works? It might make the BS feel good for awhile (venting all that anger and revenge) but I seriously doubt that it heals anything :scratchhead:

How many of you "scorched earth" advocates are happily married to the same wife post "scorched earth"? Enquiring minds want to know...


----------



## bigbearsfan

Blonde said:


> Her spouse was seeing an old GF. I would throw H out of the house for that.
> But that's not the reason why he was asked to leave.
> The only red flag I wonder on is the sexlessness for 6 months. But that *could* be guilt over how their M started (adulterous affair). She told her H that she felt new spiritual conviction over that history I call BS on the new spiritual conviction, she is trying to be someone she is not so she can get closer to the other man.
> 
> I'm not on board with "scorched earth". I don't hang around at CWI but I wonder if that ever even works? It might make the BS feel good for awhile (venting all that anger and revenge) but I seriously doubt that it heals anything :scratchhead:
> Reward bad behavior and act if the WS did nothing wrong, great logic. That will show them how wrong they were.
> 
> How many of you "scorched earth" advocates are happily married to the same wife post "scorched earth"? Enquiring minds want to know...
> How many of the reward and not punish crowd are super happy in their marriage? And also, rewarding bad behavior, did the WS go off and cheat again?


----------



## Blonde

I'm not sure that fantasizing about Mr Godly Missionary Man and never acting on it is "bad behavior"? Depends what went on between her ears during those episodes? And speculating the worst horrible crap is a reflection on the person doing such speculating.

I will tell you that when my H was using porn and I was struggling with seeing Mr Godly's face while having sex with H, I prayed and asked God to help me to take my thoughts captive to obedience to Christ.

I believe H's have a great deal of power, Christian H's more so. If a Christian H is bringing impurity into the M bed via his porn use and old GF communications and fantasies... to me it's REAL REAL hypocritical of him to blame his W for struggling with her thought life. *REAL hypocritical!!!*

JFTR: OP, I DON'T SEE YOU DOING THAT


----------



## bigbearsfan

Blonde said:


> I'm not sure that fantasizing about Mr Godly Missionary Man and never acting on it is "bad behavior"? Depends what went on between her ears during those episodes? And speculating the worst horrible crap is a reflection on the person doing such speculating. HELLO! Her fantasizing caused her enough that she wanted the OM and wanted her husband out of the way so she could reach those feelings! He gets kicked out of the house, so she could find herself and be with god. Where have we all heard that line before.
> 
> I will tell you that when my H was using porn and I was struggling with seeing Mr Godly's face while having sex with H, I prayed and asked God to help me to take my thoughts captive to obedience to Christ. Did you ask your husband to leave and then hide your intentions for the real reason why you asked him to leave?
> 
> I believe H's have a great deal of power, Christian H's more so. If a Christian H is bringing impurity into the M bed via his porn use and old GF communications and fantasies... to me it's REAL REAL hypocritical of him to blame his W for struggling with her thought life. *REAL hypocritical!!!*
> Holy anti man batman! I get it, men bad, women can do no wrong. Porn bad, fantasizing enough to end a marriage and lying to everyone why about it "Good" if your a woman due to a man watching porn. Oh the power us men have.
> JFTR: OP, I DON'T SEE YOU DOING THAT


----------



## As'laDain

if its just a one sided crush, there is no need to go nuclear. no scorched earth. still a lot of things to address, but there is no outside influence that is directly meeting her needs. fantasies are not the same as another man. 

some truth seeking is in order...


----------



## Blonde

> Holy anti man batman! I get it, men bad, women can do no wrong.


You are projecting. Let me fix that for you.

Unholy anti woman misogyny. The one with the penis can do no wrong. He gets a free pass to use porn and then blame his W when his M crumbles around him (NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN. *EVE DID IT!!!*) :rofl:


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

To rehash the record, because it was a lot of comments ago:

The old GF was always known. I didn't apologize for staying friends with her. It was a common disagreement that I now regret (to a degree, because it hurt my wife more than I realized and that should have trumped my friendship, at the time I thought it was more of a "growl" situation vs grounds for divorce.

When we met, it was after she (old gf) invited us as a family to meet her family since they would be coming through out town for dinner. She had invited us a month in advance. My wife worked that night and we agreed for another time. Not exactly clandestine. Not proud of it, but I regret it because of the hurt it caused, not because of my intentions behind it.

The porn...that I do regret. It has harmed our relationship. I legitimately see it now. I don't look at it, I don't lust after anyone, and when I do need to finally...handle things, my thoughts are competely of my wife and i on a solo mission. I almost didn't really think it was possible so i obviously wasn't where I needed to be. 
I justified it as the lesser of two evils. I wasn't in a relationship with someone only for sex, particularly if they wanted more. I wasn't paying for anything. No STDs, so accidental children. I accepted it for what it was. Not good, but there were worse things out there. I was "single"well into my mid-30s.

So, no I wasn't perfect but it also didn't make sense that what I had done was worth what it had caused.

I also remember telling her both while we were dating and most recently when we were on a trip together that I sometimes had looked at it and even asked her if she wanted to see what I looked at. It was like those moments never happened and that when I brought it up that night it was some kind of new total revelation.

We hung out for about 20 minutes before she went to work tonight. She came and had a pillow fight...me and her against my son who was loving it, when she otherwise would have stayed two rooms away a week ago.

That is all that has happened today.


----------



## bigbearsfan

Blonde said:


> You are projecting. Let me fix that for you.
> 
> Unholy anti woman misogyny. The one with the penis can do no wrong. He gets a free pass to use porn and then blame his W when his M crumbles around him (NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN. *EVE DID IT!!!*) :rofl:


So OP is bad, used porn, saw ex GF with kids at Café for an hour. To hell he should go! 

So is lusting for another in your heart ok when you are married?
Is it ok to lie and deceit your spouse and ask them to move out and leave their home and their kids just because a spouse pines for another?

Should we go back and see how this relationship began again? How did her last marriage end. I am kinda seeing a pattern here and she is just cueing up her next husband.

But the one with penis is bad because he watched porn and has all the power. Right Blonde?


----------



## Vulcan2013

Dammit, confronting is not scorched earth! Someone in an EA, even a one-sided, mostly fantasy EA, can't be drawn back in easily. Man or woman. Whatever OP does, fantasy OM would do better. Assuming it's just a fantasy. 

Still has owned his sins and turned away. 

I think he needs to confront, and work to connect emotionally.


----------



## farsidejunky

FTR, scorched earth was my phrase. That entails several steps past confrontation. 

Dug was right when he said OP is lying to two people.

You know the right thing to do, OP. Now do it and figure how to start the next chapter of your life on your terms: R or D.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Call her bluff and sign up for the mission. **** block.


----------



## As'laDain

Vulcan2013 said:


> Dammit, confronting is not scorched earth! Someone in an EA, even a one-sided, mostly fantasy EA, can't be drawn back in easily. Man or woman. Whatever OP does, fantasy OM would do better. Assuming it's just a fantasy.
> 
> Still has owned his sins and turned away.
> 
> I think he needs to confront, and work to connect emotionally.


huge difference between confronting a fantasy and confronting infidelity. 

when its a fantasy, its the representation of what she is looking for and needs. when another man actually starts fulfilling those needs... its something entirely different. 

so if she is just writing letters to a fantasy and not sending them anywhere, then the OP still has a chance of fulfilling those needs while they arent yet being fulfilled. if it is another man, then OP has to compete with someone in order to fill those needs. there is a big difference there. 

OP needs to find out which one he is dealing with. but to be honest, from her behavior, im starting to think it was a fantasy.


----------



## Chaparral

Maybe he should check the phone records back when this started to see who she was talking/texting with.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Do women really do that? Do they have fantasy relationships in their head to the point of writing letters like this? 

I wrote one because a counselor told me to. I've written them before, fully intending to send them but out of laziness or poor timing or losing where I put them, I'd end up finding them later and realizing I never sent them.

The divorce paperwork was real. Her comments 2-3 months ago about custody and one of us "may eventually want to move" was real. 

I can't honestly say yet what her true relationship was/is but I would find it odd, maybe because I'm a guy, that she would have so much stuff that was fantasy. Maybe she was afraid to send them for fear of rejection but tha would seem more like...a fear of rejection than just fantasy.

Last night she came home early. Work was slow. She texted me to let me know and then that she was making a stop at a store. She also went to bed when I did. All little steps in a better direction.

I went by to get a Christmas card this morning on my way to the gym. Nothing fits. It was sad to see all the cards and they either rang untrue to me or made me wonder if the would remind her of OM and what she wished would be from him.

I ended up finding that basically said, nicely, that I hope Christmas turns out just the way she likes it.

I had planned to write her a letter (before this took place) telling her of how everything has been going over the past 6 months...that the goals I set were being met and would finally give us the time and money we hoped to have in order to have more time together...and that I loved her and whatnot.

Now I still consider writing something like that. I also consider finishing it with "who is OM?" But if I'm for some reason wrong...95% sure i'm not, but if I am that would probably help kill anything that looked like a chance...?


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Do women really do that? Do they have fantasy relationships in their head to the point of writing letters like this?


For me, it was a real person in the fantasy/crush. A real "Mr Godly", someone I admired, respected, who was a good husband and father, kind, gentle, and lived a pure life. Completely unattainable and out of bounds because he was M. Had it ever been reciprocal, he would no longer be my ideal man because he would be a cheater.

You W could be doing this with Mr Missionary Man or with someone online who appears ideal.

I agree with Asladain. If it is a crush (like I had) it is about unmet emotional/spiritual hunger.


----------



## Blonde

bigbearsfan said:


> So OP is bad, used porn, saw ex GF with kids at Café for an hour. To hell he should go!


:lol: MORE projection!

I never said OP was bad. I perceive several of the posters as bitter angry men who have been hurt by a woman and now believe that all *women are bad.* (hence I see projection)

Such men gloss over OP's responsibilities and failings and insist that OP is an innocent victim of his eeeeeeeeeevil W and she should be harshly punished and kicked to the curb while he gets a free pass. I don't see it that way.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Last night wasn't bad...this morning was a bit indifferent again...she did say we needed to plan a trip to use our vacation points...but it was a conversation about an assessment fee for our vacation program.

Then this morning a bit after I left, she shared on FB another "God is with you wherever you go" type post from a ministry page.

It was a reminder that this isn't passing. She is hurting for this guy.

I think I found some photos of him in one of the mission videos he posted a couple years ago. They match the other photo I came across.

He is a big, good looking guy. Heart for God I'm sure...with some bit of sarcasm implied.

It is enough to quell the idea that Christmas may be a turn around point for her... that she is waking up. 

At any rate, at least I have the appointment with the attorney.

I want to text her and say "who has your heart?" or "I'm sorry you miss him"...something, but I know that won't help anything. 

I guess that is why I'm back here posting. It keeps me from doing something else.


----------



## Blonde

Do you have any evidence that he has ever reciprocated in any way?

If not, then I would not assume evil of him.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I can email the guy. I'm considering doing it under and alias and just see if this is the same guy that does mission trips and go from there.

Honestly I've never done anything like this before. If I email him straight out, as myself, he'd see my last name and game would be over.

Just considering options.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Oh, and what happens when you get tired of constantly walking on egg shells?
> 
> I know...time to leave. I'm trying to avoid that. I love this family.
> 
> I need to finish MMSLP.


Have you finished it yet?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Foolscotton, you are right on that.

Turnera - Pg 172. I'll read that in place of dwelling on things right now. Thanks.


----------



## turnera

foolscotton3 said:


> It wouldn't hurt if you were humble and honest with why you are going at night, and why this new regiment is helping you control the urges to push for what you want, rather than what she needs.


"I'm respecting your fear that I just want you for sex. So I have been holding back on it. That's one reason I'm exercising more - it helps me keep the physical need for sex at bay. That said, I'd like it if you could understand one thing: women typically need to feel emotional attraction to desire sex, while men typically get a lot of emotional connection FROM the sex, which helps them feel more emotionally connected to their women. So while I'm respecting your wishes, it's also biologically going against what I need. I hope you can see that."


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> I doubt OP's wife thinks he is trying too hard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's HER issue. Not his. He IS trying. He's learning, he's changing, he's watching. SHE is the one who has internal conflicts that are coloring her view on life. He can't fix that. He can only be himself.


----------



## jld

And if she does not care about saving the marriage?

The way I see it, the OP is the one who really wants to hold onto the marriage.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> And if she does not care about saving the marriage?
> 
> The way I see it, the OP is the one who really wants to hold onto the marriage.


Then it's over.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> If she doesn't want to talk because previously our talks end up in fights, how do we ever...talk? Just wait it out until she takes the lead?


I often tell people to just...talk! About anything and everything. Before you were married, I'll bet you talked about everything under the sun, right? That's how many if not most women are wooed - talking. Show her it's safe to talk to you and that 'the evil relationship - or worse sex - word' won't be brought up. Read her the top ten lists of things and talk about them. Talk about a new store you saw opening. Talk about her family. Talk about your work. Talk about school. Talk about her job. TALK!

She's already told you that she's afraid you'll take her 'being nice' as a sign she wants to stay with you, when it's not. So prove to her that you're a good guy who she can have nice conversations with again. Grease the wheels.

ETA: Wow, just caught up to the affair. So sorry. If my previous posts were inconsiderate or wrong in light of that, forgive me.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Then it's over.


You gotta watch Fireproof, far. 

_Oh, ye of little faith . . ._


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> I often tell people to just...talk! About anything and everything. Before you were married, I'll bet you talked about everything under the sun, right? That's how many if not most women are wooed - talking. Show her it's safe to talk to you and that 'the evil relationship - or worse sex - word' won't be brought up. Read her the top ten lists of things and talk about them. Talk about a new store you saw opening. Talk about her family. Talk about your work. Talk about school. Talk about her job. TALK!
> 
> She's already told you that she's afraid you'll take her 'being nice' as a sign she wants to stay with you, when it's not. So prove to her that you're a good guy who she can have nice conversations with again. Grease the wheels.


If I were you, OP, I would talk about things *she* is interested in.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> She didn't want to defile our marriage but she knows she will have a hard time keeping her hands off him.


Well, now you know why she won't let you touch her. Women typically will only 'love' one man at a time - including reserving sex for that man.

And it ain't you.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> When all of this happened, beginning two days ago, I had already felt like I was seeing small steps by my wife. After last night's discussion, I saw more small steps. Heck, it sounds menial I'm sure, but last night I felt her leg against mine. Used to be, as soon as she felt me touch her, or her accidentally touch me (when things were bad, before I left) she would immediately take it away. BEFORE things got bad, that was often her indication that she was up for some attention. It could have been a fluke but at least she didn't immediately draw back.


Don't know if this has come up yet, but be prepared for her to 'groom' you to get you off the scent. Touch you, flirt with you, even give you sex. Happens all the times, when they realize you're on to them.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I can email the guy. I'm considering doing it under and alias and just see if this is the same guy that does mission trips and go from there.
> 
> Honestly I've never done anything like this before. If I email him straight out, as myself, he'd see my last name and game would be over.
> 
> Just considering options.


One of us could email him for you.


----------



## turnera

foolscotton3 said:


> When I said expose him, I was under the impression that you found letters from him to your wife... if you didn't find letters from him to your wife, along with her letters to him, chances are they don't exist.
> 
> Do you have more than a first name? In my past relationship, I drew up a very detailed case against her. My initial gut feeling was dead on, but everything else, dates, locations, and even the OM was way off.
> When all I could think about was her affair, I had invested countless sleepless nights on racing thoughts and paranoid delusions.


This is what I was going to say. Your wife has a pattern of not being satisfied with what she has, for whatever reason (earned or not), and then seeing someone else who would 'be better.' It's possible that this time he flirted a little and she was instantly 'in love' and thus shut you out. Maybe not the sharpest tool in the shed? Who knows. But it looks like it's not being reciprocated, unless you have letters from HIM. Do you?


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> If I were you, OP, I would talk about things *she* is interested in.


That's unproductive. And IMO, wrong. Why only things she is interested in? How is that different than being a doormat?


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> That's unproductive. And IMO, wrong. Why only things she is interested in? How is that different than being a doormat?


Why do sales people try to talk to you about yourself or things you're interested in?

They want something from you that you don't necessarily, at the beginning, want. But they know that you can be persuaded.

I think he wants the marriage, and she doesn't really care. I'm trying to help him drum up some interest in her for continuing the marriage. Talking to her about things that she's interested in could be a way of drumming up some interest in her for working on the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

tdwal said:


> She checked out of the marriage long ago. I don't think conversation is going to bring her around.


We can't really give up until he gives up, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

None of our conjecture really matters at this point. OP is entirely too scared to ask her where she stands. And until that happens, all we're going to do is tap dance around the elephant in the room.

ETA: the moment he's willing to risk losing it in order to save it is when he will know.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I have no letters from him. I've only found one stash, haven't been able to access emails or FB. She offered me her phone last time. After Christmas I will take her up on it when it is offered again, and this time take the time to be a little, or a lot, more thorough.

I don't think she "doesn't want the marriage" when considering the reality of it, I do think she is in a fog with this other guy. She is texting me more today and asked if I wanted her to make anything to bring to my parent's tonight.

I'm aware of the differing reasons behind all this...getting me off the scent, or maybe she can feel like she is giving it one more shot...or maybe also just to get through Christmas.

I may take up the offer for someone else on here to email him.

One of my concerns though, is the more I go clandestine the more I shouldn't expect the same thing done to me in the future. I wonder if it will make me more paranoid.

When we were doing our thing, she had a second phone. Again, I justified it all because of the abuse and I didn't give it much of a thought.

She was talking yesterday about volunteering at the local women's shelter again, she wanted to do it after we first got married...wanted to help other women in her shoes, particularly since she saw both sides, as an abused spouse and as a nurse treating domestic violence.

Today's FB post was a downer. For sure. 

I know in the end, I can be okay. I just don't want it for my family. I guess nobody does, but it still does happen.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm not afraid for fear of the confrontation, for now it is about timing basically. 

Bringing it up tonight would serve no good purpose for everyone around us, including us. It will just shut her, or both of us, down tomorrow while we're with each others' family.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> You gotta watch Fireproof, far.
> 
> _Oh, ye of little faith . . ._


Um, you do know that it's a movie, right? Not real? Drama? Actors quoting lines written for them?


----------



## turnera

Have you checked her car and her dresser for a burner phone?


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> Um, you do know that it's a movie, right? Not real? Drama? Actors quoting lines written for them?


I still think it's instructive. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I'm not afraid for fear of the confrontation, for now it is about timing basically.
> 
> Bringing it up tonight would serve no good purpose for everyone around us, including us. It will just shut her, or both of us, down tomorrow while we're with each others' family.


So you already know her reaction?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Checked the car and the bedroom. I've consider the VAR...I kind of hate to go there, but I'm considering it.


----------



## turnera

Do it.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Checked the car and the bedroom. * I've consider the VAR...I kind of hate to go there, but I'm considering it*.


Quit being a dumbass and do your due diligence.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Let me amplify that a little bit. Here's a few things you might hear on a var.

"Yeah, I'm on my way to his house to f his brains out and Still thinks I'm going to counseling with the pastor."

Or,

"Yeah, I'm so afraid I'm going to lose Still, I think he thinks I cheated or something! All I want is to make love to him but I'm afraid he'll reject me if I approach. Yeah, I'm kind of hinting but he's being so stand offish, almost like he thinks I don't want him or something. I hope he's not cheating."

Or you might hear her singing along to country music, which would suck too, but not as bad as the first one.


----------



## honcho

jld said:


> If I were you, OP, I would talk about things *she* is interested in.


Given her interest in another man I am sure the OP would love to discuss what she is interested in but she doesn't want to talk about that now does she?


----------



## jld

honcho said:


> Given her interest in another man I am sure the OP would love to discuss what she is interested in but she doesn't want to talk about that now does she?


Like he doesn't want to talk about how he knows? I bet that would interest her, too.


----------



## honcho

jld said:


> Like he doesn't want to talk about how he knows? I bet that would interest her, too.


Im sure it would so she could become better at hiding it


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I will today


----------



## Duguesclin

OP, you have 2 choices, either your wife is evil and has bad intents, or she is lost.

The Betrayed Husbands advising you will automatically default to the evil one. From what you have shared, I would bet she is just lost.

I do not think hiding your cards is going to serve you. She has warmed up to you lately and it is thanks to your efforts. Confronting/concealing her the way many advise you is going to build resentment and suggest to her that she indeed chose the wrong guy.

Just be honest and tell her it was not right to snoop on her like you did. You want to build trust and what you did was not a good example.


----------



## Blonde

foolscotton3 said:


> When my wife accuses me of affairs, it freaks me out, her reasonings behind the accusations seem so out of this world,


I don't wish to alarm you but are you aware of projection? Jesus referred to it as the plank and splinter. It is when someone accuses you of something they are guilty of in spades. When H was cheating he repeatedly (falsely) accused me of having a BF.


----------



## Tobyboy

Her offering the phone means it's clean. She had or has a burner phone. She knows how to cover her tracks.....she's done it before!!
Look, you've seen the letters to the OM. You've read them.....in them she reference to being called gorgeous, wanting to hug her neck and some other stuff I'm sure. This is no made up fantasy..... This is real!!! Get that through your head!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honcho

Duguesclin said:


> OP, you have 2 choices, either your wife is evil and has bad intents, or she is lost.
> 
> The Betrayed Husbands advising you will automatically default to the evil one. From what you have shared, I would bet she is just lost.
> 
> I do not think hiding your cards is going to serve you. She has warmed up to you lately and it is thanks to your efforts. Confronting/concealing her the way many advise you is going to build resentment and suggest to her that she indeed chose the wrong guy.
> 
> Just be honest and tell her it was not right to snoop on her like you did. You want to build trust and what you did was not a good example.


BS do not automatically default to "evil". She is lost and has bad intentions because she believes that will be the solution to her troubles. She doesn't want to face the problems in the marriage so she wants to run and avoid.

You and you spouse JLD can keep trying to make him the bad guy and its his fault all you want. Its not, the state of the marriage is BOTH of there responsibilities. Her either having an affair or creating Mr. Perfect in her head is completely on her.


----------



## jld

honcho said:


> BS do not automatically default to "evil". She is lost and has bad intentions because she believes that will be the solution to her troubles. She doesn't want to face the problems in the marriage so she wants to run and avoid.
> 
> You and you spouse JLD can keep trying to make him the bad guy and its his fault all you want. Its not, the state of the marriage is BOTH of there responsibilities. Her either having an affair or creating Mr. Perfect in her head is completely on her.


Honcho, what exactly is it you want him to accomplish? Gather evidence that at minimum she's having impure thoughts? How does that help him if they divorce? Does he get a bigger share of their common assets that way?

She had at least a crush on another man. It may have been completely one-sided. She feels discouraged about her relationship with her husband. She asked him to leave their home. She has a job as a night nurse, which probably pays well, so she probably doesn't feel she needs him financially. 

She survived one divorce and probably figures she can survive another. She doesn't trust him enough to tell him the truth about her interest in another man. She relies on her friends and her family for emotional support. She is not inspired to seek it from him. 

Is all this evidence gathering supposed to make it easier for him to emotionally detach and be able to leave? Or that he will present it to her, and she's going to realize she really does love her husband, and take all responsibility for turning the marriage around? Is that the hope?


----------



## Blonde

How many of the advisers are still M? That's what I want to know JLD.

Do these tactics WORK to save M? Or do they just drive the wedge deeper, increase the distrust, and make the split more bitter?


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> How many of the advisers are still M? That's what I want to know JLD.
> 
> Do these tactics WORK to save M? Or do they just drive the wedge deeper, increase the distrust, and make the split more bitter?


Or if they are still married, do the spouses just feel trapped? 

Do they feel constantly judged? Under suspicion?

Was the motivation for an affair ever taken into account? 

Or is the fact that an affair took place really the only thing that matters? It is the only true root of all marital ill?

Could this be the first divorce on TAM caused by the concrete evidence of impure thoughts?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Not sure if it is what is considered a trigger or not but I was in a house where a soap opera was playing. It was a sex scene. It didn't turn me on. It made me shutter at the thought of my wife being with someone else.


----------



## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Not sure if it is what is considered a trigger or not but I was in a house where a soap opera was playing. It was a sex scene. It didn't turn me on. It made me shutter at the thought of my wife being with someone else.


Because you love her.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> *Honcho, what exactly is it you want him to accomplish?* Gather evidence that at minimum she's having impure thoughts? How does that help him if they divorce? Does he get a bigger share of their common assets that way?
> 
> She had at least a crush on another man. It may have been completely one-sided. She feels discouraged about her relationship with her husband. She asked him to leave their home. She has a job as a night nurse, which probably pays well, so she probably doesn't feel she needs him financially.
> 
> She survived one divorce and probably figures she can survive another. She doesn't trust him enough to tell him the truth about her interest in another man. She relies on her friends and her family for emotional support. She is not inspired to seek it from him.
> 
> Is all this evidence gathering supposed to make it easier for him to emotionally detach and be able to leave? Or that he will present it to her, and she's going to realize she really does love her husband, and take all responsibility for turning the marriage around? Is that the hope?


Not Honcho but I'll answer it. What everyone but you, your husband, and Blonde want him to do is investigate to find out what he's actually dealing with so he can properly deal with it. I've said it before and I'll say it again now, your advice for him is excellent to recover his marriage if there is not a third party involved, but will do nothing to eliminate a third party if there is one involved. Without eliminating third party involvement what you're advocating is rug sweeping and, if he doesn't divorce, will result in him living an intimacy free life with a woman who is getting her needs met by someone else and letting him hang.

Doctors need to know what they're treating to treat it effectively, and Still needs to know what battle he's fighting to fight it effectively.

Still, eyes open mouth shut until you know what you're dealing with. I'm not convinced this guy is involved with your wife anywhere near as much as she would like. That could easily change on this "mission" trip.


----------



## jld

We are not rug sweeping anything. We have told him to be honest and open with her, and the sooner, the better.


----------



## happy as a clam

Tobyboy said:


> Her offering the phone means it's clean. She had or has a burner phone. She knows how to cover her tracks.....she's done it before!!


:iagree:

Burner phone or secret email account.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Well, I went home and it was a little awkward but did get better. I went in intentionally trying to be in a good mood.

One thing led to another and the mission trip got brought up. She commented laughingly that I had thought there might be a boyfriend on the trip and that that would be pretty ballsy...and that she doesn't have any balls.

I told her that since we were talking, that I did get the feeling sometimes that the FB posts, some of them, were meant for someone else. Jokingly she asked if I was getting paranoid but that the post from today was meant for someone...her christian friend I had mentioned before...she won't have much family at all this year becuase her ex fiancé's family was her main family. I didn't question it, no need based on conversation at the time but it did dawn on me that I could have asked why she just didn't tag her in it then.

I told her since there was no obvious bf, she was going to need a man (something like that) and kissed her which she was more receptive too although she didn't exactly jump on me. At least I didn't felt like it was a huge mistake.

There is enough to want to call BS but she was open and not defensive too much during conversations. 

She got decently dressed up for my folks tonight...but is also going to come here a little later so she can wrap gifts for my son without him being home.

I really don't think OM is a local. And she wasn't dressed sexy as if he might swing by if given the chance. Besides, we have a closed neighborhood...one way in, one way out, and friends all along the street that might have see something so I really don't consider a physical meeting, possibly just phone or video time when I'm feeling concerned or insecure.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

BS meant bull shot, not betrayed spouse. 

I'm well aware of the fact that she may be greasing me up or trying to get me off the trail.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

They are in her work bag which I think is still in her vehicle, so I don't know.


----------



## the guy

Blonde said:


> How many of the advisers are still M? That's what I want to know JLD.
> 
> Do these tactics WORK to save M? Or do they just drive the wedge deeper, increase the distrust, and make the split more bitter?


I'm still married

And if my old lady was *still* screwing around I would drive more then a wedge in the marriage I would nuke the hell out off it....just saying

As far as tactics go....well I guess a betrayed spouse has to do what they gotta do to stop getting phucked over *again*!!!!
The way I see it there are pre-affair tactics and there are post-affair tactics....now for the post affair tactics; section one remorseful spouse and section two unremorseful spouse

lets cover post affair, section one, sub-part A.boundaries, sub-part B. consequences, sub-part C Affair proofing.... lets cover sub-part A.

To recap that' Post A.,1.,sp A. of the "tactical hand book of infidelity".

Are you ready to continue?:lol::rofl::lol:

Ok I make my self laugh.... my point is every infidelity case is different and I believe the trick is to find a tactic that works for each case/individual. Sh!t if there was a "Tactical Hand Book for Infidelity" that would be kind of cool...especially a section on Pre-affair tactics.( I'm sure there are plenty of books)

At the end of the day I got lucky my tactic worked and from what I've been reading some folks are no longer married and seem pretty happy their tactic worked also...Just saying

Threadjack over


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I've considered that!


----------



## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I've considered that!


You either need to quit playing games and take this seriously or just go ahead and divorce. Playing games isn't going to help you at all.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm by no means playing games. I consider all the advice I get. I'm trying to save a marriage that often looks futile but not always. 

I only have a couple shots that can each potentially change everything. If I give up what I know, but for some reason I'm wrong, it can backfire bigtime.

If I come too soft it might just fire her up if she sees it as weak and wants to stick up for the OM by lying about things

If I can get her to realize I know enough and she wants this to work, she might get to a point where she will come clean if I don't shut her down.

Or it may be hopeless and she is just playing nice for Christmas.

Idk, so I take it as it comes and consider all the advice given.

In the end, I have to live with whatever happens, forever.


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## farsidejunky

foolscotton3 said:


> I see, you want to give her every opportunity to come clean with what she is hiding. What she is hiding is far more important than why.


.


----------



## happy as a clam

I agree with tdwal. Quit dropping hints and asking her if there's anything she might want to tell you.

Confront, and confront hard. She treated you like crap; lied to you, made you leave the house, threatened divorce, and she's STILL lying to you. Quit tap-dancing around the issue and just deal with it head on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Still, if I were you, and I did not feel comfortable talking to her openly and honestly, I would go to the minister she spoke with last week, and tell him, in confidence, everything. He might want to meet with both of you at some point after.

Did you follow far's suggestion to ask to pray with your wife every night? Are you praying for guidance?

I think it would be sustaining to seek divine wisdom, even if it is at times convicting. We have _all_ fallen short. We _all_ need humility.


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## Vulcan2013

Still, you really need to discuss this openly, without accusations or freaking out. 

The reconnecting advice you are getting is good for another time, but not now, while your wife is not into you, and into another. 

Women love being pursued, love romance *from men they are attracted to. *From men they are not attracted to, they find it repulsive or "creepy". Sad to say, right now the best words and gestures would be creepy. 

To build attraction, you need to be direct and forthright, calm and collected. These games are beyond beta; weak and unmanly. 

And don't be ashamed of snooping, that's a spouses right when we set off alarm bells. And yes, you should be ok with the same treatment. 

Get the VAR first, if she's in an active affair she will talk or message someone soon after confrontation. Then confront directly. 

Good luck.


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## jld

Still, AslaDain made a post once that you might find helpful. He told men to become their wife's "fantasy man."

Blonde has said that she thinks your wife craves a godly man. She believes that is what your wife sees in the missionary guy. 

Still, how about developing those godly qualities in yourself?

Even if does not attract your wife back to you (and I still think there is hope for that), I bet, as a Christian man, you would appreciate the self-improvement.

I think when a man truly loves a woman, there is an awful lot of hope for saving a marriage. A lot of humility is needed, and persistence, but there is definitely hope. I would encourage you to put structure around that hope.

And one more thought: make sure you that you come out of this with a clear conscience. Some of the things you are being advised to do would be hard for a Christian man to feel good about, imo. Like you said, you are the one that, at the end of this, has to live with himself.


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## Duguesclin

It is far easier to spy on your spouse than to become the man you should become.

Spying and then confronting his wife will get him quickly to a divorce. Improving himself may not save his marriage, but if divorce is inevitable, he will personally be in a better place.

Be open to her, do not come in an accusatory manner, try to understand. I just do not believe women are evil. They just do not think the way we do.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Today hasn't been bad. That is the gift I was personally hoping for this year. 

I don't know how much more "Godly" I can be. Not that I am all that Godly, just that we pray at all meals, last night we were talking C.S. Lewis and bible apps. I, thankfully, haven't given into lustful thoughts in some time. I don't put on a front, I also don't publicize my sin for that matter.

I haven't been praying with her at night yet. That is a definite area for improvement.

I agree with V about how to handle things...sometimes I agree with other aspects...as this situation unveils it can affect my outlook at the time.

The electronics store didn't have a VAR btw.

I am meeting worth my attorney this week. I want to talk to him about what I've found and his advice. For marital matters he is the guy in the area to go to.

Anyway, I'm at least thankful that for today there have been no scars to haunt me for upcoming years.


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## turnera

What's going on with MMSLP?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Pg 223.


----------



## turnera

*sigh*

I meant, what are you learning?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Honestly, the "sexy moves" part has been hard to read, given the situation.

I'm in the gym. I'm getting my finances back on track. Going shopping tonight for some new clothes.

She got me nothing for Christmas. Her excuses were weak but I acted like no big deal, although at one point after her saying "I had no idea what to get you" for the third time, I politely but firmly told her that it was a weak and then left it alone and enjoyed watching her open hers. Then she swore how she'd go shopping for me Saturday. 

Last night at her parents was a good time. This morning was a bit more like the wife I'm used to seeing. Not bad, I joked about meeting her in the shower after a bit and she said no but for the first time followed it with a smile. She remains more talkative but after having read her devotional about Gods love she seemed more irritated.

At this point it is what it is. I will continue to work on myself. Will meet with the attorney. Will continue to try to be upbeat and appropriately loving without overkill. If she wants to leave me, she will have very few moments to look back on to justify he actions based on how I treat her.

I still have to decide my own course of action, part of it will be based on my attorney's advice.

I can't guarantee I won't confront her before the appointment but I'm trying not to.

I understand that this can be seen either as weak or as patient. Part of it is strategy and part of it is lack of a full proof strategy.


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## turnera

Please stop making jokes about sex. Every time you make one, it sets back any possible reconciliation in her eyes; basically, you become 'the pig' again every time you say something like that.


----------



## Duguesclin

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Honestly, the "sexy moves" part has been hard to read, given the situation.
> 
> I'm in the gym. I'm getting my finances back on track. Going shopping tonight for some new clothes.
> 
> She got me nothing for Christmas. Her excuses were weak but I acted like no big deal, although at one point after her saying "I had no idea what to get you" for the third time, I politely but firmly told her that it was a weak and then left it alone and enjoyed watching her open hers. Then she swore how she'd go shopping for me Saturday.
> 
> Last night at her parents was a good time. This morning was a bit more like the wife I'm used to seeing. Not bad, I joked about meeting her in the shower after a bit and she said no but for the first time followed it with a smile. She remains more talkative but after having read her devotional about Gods love she seemed more irritated.
> 
> At this point it is what it is. I will continue to work on myself. Will meet with the attorney. Will continue to try to be upbeat and appropriately loving without overkill. If she wants to leave me,* she will have very few moments to look back on to justify he actions based on how I treat her*.
> 
> I still have to decide my own course of action, part of it will be *based on my attorney's advice*.
> 
> I can't guarantee I won't confront her before the appointment but I'm trying not to.
> 
> I understand that this can be seen either as weak or as patient. *Part of it is strategy and part of it is lack of a full proof strategy*.


There is a saying in the country I come from. You cannot protect both the cabbage and the goat. To me your strategy is to do both. You love your wife and you do not want a divorce, but at the same time you are going to an attorney, just in case.

To be successful, a strategy has to be simple. You pick the outcome you are looking for and you go for it. You give yourself a time frame and you go 100% at it. When it is time to reevaluate, you pause and decide if you want to stick to your original strategy and if you want to change based on new information.

Being wishy washy will not get you anywhere.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Am I being a little wishy-washy? Yes. 4 days ago I had no idea about the other side of things. For 6 months I've been dealing with it all and only had a certain amount of information to use to go with it. 

Some of the advice is to get an attorney. A good one.
I have an attorney, a very good one.

Do I want to stay married? Yes. But with the new found other side...which involves another guy's knowledge whether or not it involves his physical actions.

Do I still want to stay married? Yes. More than divorced.

But I can't guarantee that.

If I meet with the attorney and he says "in light of this new information, I think it changes the game enough that you can seek more than half custody"...that will make a difference
If he says "even if you present this in court, the mom will still get at least half the custody." then I have less to be concerned about but a lot more to think about.

Every day I haven't made a flat out decision that changes the dynamics of this household, is another day that the kids are fine and there is a sense of stability. Once it starts, there will be more hard times and hurt feelings and scars that I don't want for any of our kids. 

Once it starts and divorce is the final answer, birthdays, holidays and everything will never be the same again. Our oldest daughter's bday is this weekend. New Years is a few days later. 

Once it starts, she will never be out of my life, things will only be contentious and we will have to likely split custody of this boy. I am not okay with splitting custody in half. I am not okay with getting a divorce I don't want and losing out on half of my son's life as a result.

Call it what you want, but I need my act together as much as I can before I, personally, pull a trigger. I do care about the scarring for my kids. 

People say kids are resilient...they are, until they aren't.

Adults made the decision to get married. Kids just get brought in to the mix whether they want to or not. 

Sometimes it isn't about me...or her...the big picture affects more then either of us. Right now she is selfish and who knows what else. Right now I'm just sitting here and taking it, I get it. 

It won't always be that way. But once it isn't, the game changes for everyone.


----------



## turnera

this is why following our advice about relationships and cheating is so important. We've seen hundreds of cases just like yours, we know how they turn out when you do A or when you do B. So given that you want to save your marriage, it's in your best interest to follow the advice here (the advice that tries to help you save the marriage, at this point).


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## Duguesclin

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Call it what you want, but I need my act together as much as I can before I, personally, pull a trigger. I do care about the scarring for my kids.


She can pull the trigger as much as you do. You are not in control of the situation. How you act will have a huge impact on your wife's next move.

It is wonderful that you think of your kids, and you have the right idea that married parents is the best for them. But, for married parents to stay together, they need to have a relationship. The best thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother.

I understand you are a little gun shy with the recent evidences you have uncovered, but waiting and hiding is not going to make it better. It is going to make your wife even more resentful. It is not building anything.

My wife posted a link yesterday to a website. It might help you:
Cheating Wives - When the wife has the affair

Not that I think your wife is having an affair.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Let me ask a few clear questions with the goal of saving this marriage.

1. If I want to save this marriage, knowing what I know now...which is more than I did but not enough to hold all the information cards...what do I do? Get a VAR and collect more info but risk the trust that she may claim I took, if she finds out? Or confront her with what I know now? Or do nothing for now and she if she continues to draw back towards me?

2. How do I handle the day-to-day and be appropriately loving and encouraging, without coming across as weak?


----------



## happy as a clam

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Let me ask a few clear questions with the goal of saving this marriage.
> 
> 1. If I want to save this marriage, knowing what I know now...which is more than I did but not enough to hold all the information cards...what do I do? Get a VAR and collect more info but risk the trust that she may claim I took, if she finds out? Or confront her with what I know now? Or do nothing for now and she if she continues to draw back towards me?
> 
> 2. How do I handle the day-to-day and be appropriately loving and encouraging, without coming across as weak?


OP,

The answers to BOTH of your questions have been abundantly answered in the 56 pages of this thread. You need to go back and re-read the entire thread (I'm not being sarcastic), perhaps take notes, make lists, arrange the advice you're getting into groups that make sense to you.

You need to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it.

The fact that she bought you no gifts is the ULTIMATE rejection. What a cruel thing to do to a spouse. Her behavior is despicable. Yet you seem to be okay with her going out on Saturday to buy you gifts. Very lame on her part.

You are being very door-mattish. And quit obsessing over the "more than 50% custody" issue. Unless she is a child beater or a drug addict, you will never get more than 50%. And you are doing your children NO favors by clinging to a wife who doesn't want to be with you in a failing marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Thanks for the link Dug.


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## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> If I want to save this marriage, knowing what I know now...which is more than I did but not enough to hold all the information cards...what do I do? Get a VAR and collect more info but *risk the trust* that she may claim I took, if she finds out?


this is the crux of your problem. You are operating out of fear. Fear of her anger.

Well, where is YOUR anger?

I've seen it over and over - the cheating wife, after all is said and done, asks the husband: "Why didn't you fight for me? Why didn't you say him or me? Why didn't you get mad and stake your claim?"

Why? Because the man is now SCARED of losing her and starts tiptoeing around so as not to upset her, scared that at the first sign of anger, she will bolt.

Well, she might. But stillkindofhopeful..._she has already bolted_. She has already given her heart to another man. The only thing at this point to switch that around is for you to get all the information you can get, so as to know what you're up against, and then state: him or me. You get one chance. I want you but I won't sit by and wring my hands while you make plans to F another man.

Using a VAR IS you caring for your marriage, fighting for it. Cheaters lie. ALL THE TIME. Your only hope now is to find out the truth. And for that you need a VAR or else 100% access to her electronics.

And if you DO manage to get rid of OM and save the marriage, at THAT point you can say to her (assuming she knows about the VAR) that you went to war to save the marriage and you used the tools you needed to use to save her from herself. And if she is truly remorseful, truly wanting the marriage, she will thank you. Actually, it's a good litmus test.


----------



## turnera

happy as a clam said:


> You need to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it.
> 
> The fact that she bought you no gifts is the ULTIMATE rejection. What a cruel thing to do to a spouse. Her behavior is despicable. Yet you seem to be okay with her going out on Saturday to buy you gifts. Very lame on her part.


And EXTREMELY lame on YOUR part if you then accept those gifts. "Wife, I don't want your sloppy seconds. If you don't care enough to think of me before Christmas, I'm learning all I need to know about you. I have a lot of thinking to do."

THAT is what you should be saying to her. But you're too scared to do it. Which is not a dis at you, as most betrayed husbands react the exact same way. But only a few get a chance to save their marriage - through strength, anger, and self respect - by following the advice given here.


----------



## Duguesclin

turnera said:


> She has already given her heart to another man. The only thing at this point to switch that around is for you to get all the information you can get, so as to know what you're up against, and then state: him or me. You get one chance. I want you but I won't sit by and wring my hands while you make plans to F another man.


How do you know she has given her heart to another man? To be given someone need to take. There is no evidence that this guy even knows the feeling this woman has for him.

Why would this missionary leader risk his job? I am sure it is very common for women to have crushes on church leaders. While it is not right or healthy to have those crushes to someone other than your husband, it is not the end of the world.

Going further in the spying techniques is not helping fix the problem.

This woman is lost. Her husband is not fulfilling her emotional needs. From the OP's writing we do not know if she has expressed her frustration to him, but right now, she is pouring her heart into her journal.

Instead of seeking a lawyer's advice and looking for VAR systems, the OP would be better off cracking his wife's shell that she has built in the past months.

He needs to be open, listen to her and do his homework. He should not have said anything about his wife forgetting his Christmas present. It is irrelevant at this time. He needs to repair the relationship.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Duguesclin said:


> How do you know she has given her heart to another man? To be given someone need to take.


Inaccurate.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Duguesclin said:


> How do you know she has given her heart to another man? To be given someone need to take. There is no evidence that this guy even knows the feeling this woman has for him.
> 
> Why would this missionary leader risk his job? I am sure it is very common for women to have crushes on church leaders. While it is not right or healthy to have those crushes to someone other than your husband, it is not the end of the world.
> 
> Going further in the spying techniques is not helping fix the problem.
> 
> This woman is lost. Her husband is not fulfilling her emotional needs. From the OP's writing we do not know if she has expressed her frustration to him, but right now, she is pouring her heart into her journal.
> 
> *Instead of seeking a lawyer's advice and looking for VAR systems, the OP would be better off cracking his wife's shell that she has built in the past months.*
> 
> He needs to be open, listen to her and do his homework. He should not have said anything about his wife forgetting his Christmas present. It is irrelevant at this time. He needs to repair the relationship.


Wrong. You are making an assumption based on your own prejudices and preconceptions about what the problem is. He needs the var to find out what the problem actually is before he can know for sure what he needs to do.

He also needs to consult with a lawyer to find out what his rights and obligations are whether he divorces her or she divorces him or they stay together. Don't forget, it was her that first brought up divorce, it was her that got the paperwork and started filling it out. It is the height of irresponsibility for you to suggest that he should not consult with a lawyer in the face of these facts.


----------



## Duguesclin

Nucking Futs said:


> Wrong. You are making an assumption based on your own prejudices and preconceptions about what the problem is. He needs the var to find out what the problem actually is before he can know for sure what he needs to do.
> 
> He also needs to consult with a lawyer to find out what his rights and obligations are whether he divorces her or she divorces him or they stay together. Don't forget, it was her that first brought up divorce, it was her that got the paperwork and started filling it out. It is the height of irresponsibility for you to suggest that he should not consult with a lawyer in the face of these facts.


He wants to be with his son. The best way for him to be with his son is to be with his wife.

Like everyone else, he has limited time. He can chose to spend it on playing James Bond or he can work on his relationship. At this moment in the relationship it would be very responsible of him to focus on the relationship. He can still win her back, regardless how far it has gone with the guy she is likely to have never met.

If I were in that situation, this is what I would do.


----------



## Duguesclin

tdwal said:


> Dude she has checked out and how he is acting now is driving her away. He is acting less than beta.


I agree the way he is acting now is driving her away.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Duguesclin said:


> He wants to be with his son. The best way for him to be with his son is to be with his wife.
> 
> Like everyone else, he has limited time. He can chose to spend it on playing James Bond or he can work on his relationship. At this moment in the relationship it would be very responsible of him to focus on the relationship. He can still win her back, regardless how far it has gone with the guy she is likely to have never met.
> 
> If I were in that situation, this is what I would do.


This is what you would do because _(this section edited to avoid a ban)_ all women are not angels. In fact, some of them are flat out evil, some are BSC, and some are mere mortals. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that none of them are the pure angels _(this section edited to avoid a ban)._ And believe it or not, women are actually independent agents who can think and make decisions for themselves, and sometimes, and hold on to your seat for this one because you may be shocked, sometimes those decisions are selfish.

You are giving bad advice based on the notion that recovering the marriage at any cost, apparently including becoming her cuckold, is worth it. I disagree. I think losing yourself in your wife is a mistake, and I can't help but wonder why you're so adamant that he not find out what his wife has done. My theory is that you're not interested in his best interest, you're only interested in what you have determined to be his best interest, and you're afraid if he finds out the truth you won't be able to brain wash him into your cult.

I have no problem with what you're advising once the lack of a third party is confirmed, but I'm very bothered by you wanting him to bury his head in the sand and not seek the truth. If your advice can't stand up to the truth maybe you should reconsider it.


----------



## Duguesclin

Nucking Futs said:


> This is what you would do because _(this section edited to avoid a ban)_ all women are not angels. In fact, some of them are flat out evil, some are BSC, and some are mere mortals. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that none of them are the pure angels _(this section edited to avoid a ban)._ And believe it or not, women are actually independent agents who can think and make decisions for themselves, and sometimes, and hold on to your seat for this one because you may be shocked, sometimes those decisions are selfish.
> 
> You are giving bad advice based on the notion that recovering the marriage at any cost, apparently including becoming her cuckold, is worth it. I disagree. I think losing yourself in your wife is a mistake, and I can't help but wonder why you're so adamant that he not find out what his wife has done. My theory is that you're not interested in his best interest, you're only interested in what you have determined to be his best interest, and you're afraid if he finds out the truth you won't be able to brain wash him into your cult.
> 
> I have no problem with what you're advising once the lack of a third party is confirmed, but I'm very bothered by you wanting him to bury his head in the sand and not seek the truth. If your advice can't stand up to the truth maybe you should reconsider it.


OP can determine whose advice he is going to follow.

Are you giving your advice based on pride or is it for the best interest of the family?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Duguesclin said:


> OP can determine whose advice he is going to follow.
> 
> Are you giving your advice based on pride or is it for the best interest of the family?


ugh....


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Blossom Leigh said:


> ugh....








Lol. Some give advice based on experience, some on wishful or idealistic thinking.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

WorkingOnMe said:


> Lol. Some give advice based on experience, some on wishful or idealistic thinking.



And then accuse others of not caring... I think you owe Nucking an apology for that remark Dug. That was not cool.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Duguesclin said:


> OP can determine whose advice he is going to follow.
> 
> Are you giving your advice based on pride or is it for the best interest of the family?


I am giving my advice to find the truth based on the best interests of the family, as opposed to your advice which is in the best interest of the cheaters if there is cheating. 

I believe it is in the best interests of the family to have two mentally healthy parents, both with respectable levels of self esteem, each able to trust the other to defend the marriage from malign outside interests. If he buries his head in the sand he's not defending his marriage, he's not going to be mentally healthy, and there's no way any man who would do this kind of thing can have a respectable level of self esteem.

It is in no way in the best interest of the family to have a beat down husband and a pedestalized wife. That's where I see you directing Still.


----------



## Duguesclin

Nucking Futs said:


> It is in no way in the best interest of the family to have a beat down husband and a pedestalized wife. That's where I see you directing Still.


Why would working on a relationship and trying to understand your wife mean you have to put her on a pedestal?
Why a husband working on his relationship with his wife would be a beat down?

I do not think that using deception to fight deception is a very healthy way to resolve issues.


----------



## happy as a clam

Blossom Leigh said:


> ugh....



:iagree:

_* double-ugh*_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Duguesclin said:


> Why would working on a relationship and trying to understand your wife mean you have to put her on a pedestal?
> Why a husband working on his relationship with his wife would be a beat down?
> 
> I do not think that using deception to fight deception is a very healthy way to resolve issues.



What do you propose to fight deception?


----------



## turnera

Duguesclin said:


> Like everyone else, he has limited time. He can chose to spend it on playing James Bond or he can work on his relationship.


Yeah, the 3 or 4 days of listening to a VAR - which he NEEDS to do so he can know the truth - is going to take up SO much of this limited time. 

The point is, if she's in contact with another man, nothing he does will make his wife love him again until the OM is out of the picture. And if he listens for a few days and hears nothing, he can then move forward with kissing her ass or whatever else he thinks he needs to do.


----------



## turnera

Duguesclin said:


> OP can determine whose advice he is going to follow.
> 
> Are you giving your advice based on pride or is it for the best interest of the family?


What does this have to do with pride? It's about the cumulative knowledge after watching hundreds of people in this exact same situation and knowing what works and what doesn't. Step 1: Women cannot reconnect with their husband if there's another man. Step 2: If no OM is found, fix the marriage and your part in it.


----------



## Duguesclin

Thinking of your wife cheating with another man is traumatic for a man. His first instinct will be to react out of pride. Pride is an essential element in male behavior.

To make the best decision for his family a betrayed husband has to be able to set his pride aside.

OP's marriage has been in trouble for a while. What his wife is doing is not right. But he is far from clean either. Based on the letters and diary entries he snooped on, she is looking for a godly man. He obviously is not. If I were him, I would work towards this direction. Does a godly man spy on his wife? No! Does he get hurt because he does not get a Christmas present? I do not think either!

Even if there is another man, why could not he win her back? If he does not change, I would agree it will be unlikely. But if he is willing to address the issues, he will have a fair chance.

OP knows that a divorce means that he will not be able to see his son as often he does today. I would make sure I put all my energy to make this marriage right. He has full control about his behavior and this is where I would start. Hers will follow.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Thank you for all the care and concern...I believe it is legitimate and heart felt even if it differs so greatly.

It went down today. I tagged her in a FB photo and noticed she "liked" it but also noticed that it wasnt showing on her page like others, I thought, did. It was ot myself and two of our kids. The other one that I did post earlier las week (if I "tagged" it the same way) did display on her page so I assumed she hid it or took it down.

That was my tipping point. I could only imagine she didn't want OM to see a recent pic of a happy family.

When she got home i politely but seriously asked to see her phone. She gave it to me like "okay, whatever" and then I took it into the bathroom and locked the door. A few minutes later she was wanting it back. I told her no. It escalated to her telling me to unlock the door if I didn't want to make a scene in front of the kids. So I did. 

At firs she wanted my phone. I didn't care but wasn't in a mood to mess with giving it to her, I was looking for something. She quickly just wanted her phone back. I told her it wasn't going to happen and that I asked her for it, she gave it to me and I wasn't done yet.

She started to reach for it. I told her "no ma'am, it will not happen". She told me she was going to punch or kick me (we are both black belts) if I didn't give it to her. I told her to go ahead and call the cops if she wanted to make a scene and get violent. She started to change her tune. 

I wasn't finding anything. She told me if I gave her the phone she'd tell me whatever I wanted to know. I asked her what was in the phone that she didn't want me to see. She "didn't know" and just wanted her phone.

No pictures, no videos, no texts, no FaceTime.

And then I did a search in FB for the name I thought it was under. I found it. I told her "this!! This is what I was looking for" and gave her back her phone.

He is a music minister and youth pastor a few towns down...a good hour from here.
She cried. Said she never did physically see him, but talked a few times and texted a lot. But off and on. they'd stop apparently...probably out of guilt.

She "isn't sure if she loves him" but apparently has told him that she has.

I told her I read the letters. No real outrage from the remark. She said he wasn't what caused the problems and he wasn't a bad guy...that her and I did worse because we had actually had sex before she was divorced and then grew distant once we got married....that she tried to tell me. Almost the definition of a walk away wife. 

She cried and said that she just hurt and doesn't know why people always hurt her.

She said she would leave Monday.

I told her (re:OM and not being a bad guy) that defending him wasn't helping.

He apparently has no role in the mission trip.

I am going to his church this Sunday. I won't do anything crazy but I will make sure he knows who I am and the role he has had in my life and my family.

I hurt for my wife. She really does hurt but this didn't justify feeling hurt. I told her again how much I have always loved her and that no one is perfect. My son saw that last part...he cried watching is cry. I left her sitting in the closet so he wouldn't watch her. She then took him and I went into the bathroom. He could still see me and began to get upset, seeing me upset and then cried for me. We all ended up lying on the bed together and he fell asleep. 
The girls were upstairs. They heard it all I'm sure...but acting "resilient" acted like they didn't hear anything and then ended up going outside. The middle child sat on the couch for a bit before going outside and I kissed her on the forehead on my way through the room a quietly told her it was okay. She just sat there.

These are the things that hurt my heart. My kids hurting and knowing she hurts. And knowing I hurt her to begin with is awful but I know this isn't all my fault. She knows it too.

I don't need to know now if anyone thinks I blew it. what happened has happened. I felt the time had come and that is what I needed.


----------



## Duguesclin

I am sorry the day turned out the way it did. I know you are hurting. I am sorry about that.

Do not give up on her. She is worth your time. She is scared and lost. You need to hold her hand and bring her back on the right path.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Thank you. For now she still defends the other guy...they "only texted" and became very good friends. I don't think it is my hand she wants to hold. At least not right now. But thank you.


----------



## honcho

No, now he needs to decide what he wants to do. He is starting to get the truth finally and as much as I hate to say it, he probably has not received all of it yet. They both must decide if the marriage is worth saving. They both would have to swallow pride, show patience and be humbled. She must own her decisions and actions and he must own his. He isn't a saint and she isn't an angel. They are just two people whos lives have been turned upsidedown. 

Yes she is scared and lost and so is he. Nobody is prepared for this sort of stuff. Divorce should be a last resort, too often its an easy convenience. He doesn’t need to bring her to the right path she must choose it. Her decision to have at least an EA was her decision and she must own that and work toward repairing that damage. The mere fact she claims its over yet doesn’t know if she loves him or not and the blame deflection speaks a great deal about how much denial she is in about this. He knows what me must work on to make himself better. 

They can repair the damage, it takes a great deal of work and effort. They both must want it. 

Nobody is going to tell you that you blew it, you did what you felt you needed to do. This is a horrible experience and I am sorry that you are living it right now. The next day or two are going to feel really awkward to say the least. Keep your wits about you and your emotions will bounce all over the place.


----------



## Chaparral

You handled it as well possible. She has been lying and cheating all along. Where did they meet? How often? When was the last time?

He told her she was gorgeous and wanted to hug her neck?

She admitted to a few things, if she told you everything it will be a first here.

When she blamed you yet again what did you say? Back when all this started had she been acting like you had been a major creep? In other words, which came first the affair or the justification?

She said they haven't had sex, have they been seeing each other? 

Did she get him something for Christmas?


----------



## Chaparral

They sell the great sony vars at walmart bestbuy and home depot. You would know a sh!t ton more stuff if you would follow some of he great advice you have gotten instead of constantly circleing.

You no doubt would/ will get info from hearing talking to him and her friend.

Why haven't you checked her text records?

Were there any texts on her phone?


----------



## Tobyboy

Chaparral said:


> You handled it as well possible. She has been lying and cheating all along. Where did they meet? How often? When was the last time?
> 
> He told her she was gorgeous and wanted to hug her neck?
> 
> She admitted to a few things, if she told you everything it will be a first here.
> 
> When she blamed you yet again what did you say? Back when all this started had she been acting like you had been a major creep? In other words, which came first the affair or the justification?
> 
> She said they haven't had sex, have they been seeing each other?
> 
> Did she get him something for Christmas?


Is he married?
Chap is right!! We've been telling you that this guy was real, not some fantasy!!
Kill the affair!! Expose your WW!!! This may be the only way to salvage this relationship!!!
Also, prepare yourself for more painful facts to come out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Please, consider counselling for the kids, regardless of what happens with you and your wife (i.e. whether you stay together or not). This can be very traumatising for kids.

Best wishes


----------



## Nucking Futs

Have you noticed the similarity with the demise of her first marriage? Do you suppose that maybe she's got something in her head that causes her to sabotage her relationships?

If you divorce, and that's not strictly up to you, how many more times will she do this?


----------



## Tobyboy

foolscotton3 said:


> 1. Talk to lawyer about setting up the VAR.
> 
> 2. Set up VAR
> 
> 3. Confront wife about letters, no accusations, don't interrogate her, just let her know you saw them.
> 
> 4. Wait a few days to recover VAR, have lawyer listen to anything you don't want to hear.
> 
> Then worry about your options.


Go back a few post. Confrontation occurred and affair confirmed!!


----------



## Tobyboy

Nucking Futs said:


> Have you noticed the similarity with the demise of her first marriage? Do you suppose that maybe she's got something in her head that causes her to sabotage her relationships?
> 
> If you divorce, and that's not strictly up to you, how many more times will she do this?


GIGS(grass is greener syndrome) maybe?
I heard the term in another forum.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Stillkind... I'm going to share my path with you as it is a blend of the two paths touted here. If it resonates, great, if not .. no worries.

Before I knew details I told my H "I don't care what you have done I am not leaving you." He cut the affair off within a few days of me saying that. I did not expose it to other family right away and I have a thread that debates those issues if you want to read it Well, I just did it...

Today, if I were in your shoes, AFTER telling her I'm not leaving you, I would let her know this right behind it... "I don't care what you've done, I'm not leaving you. Yet I would be remiss if I did not tell you that your choice to cope with marital problems with an affair is 100% wrong and you must learn to choose different for this marriage to survive long term. For myself and our kids I am fully committed to recovering from the poor choices we have made in this marriage and I am asking you to partner with me in that endeavor. Affairs are highly destructive and you can never chose this route again which requires you learning why you chose it and understanding how to stay 100% away from them in the future. You will need to decide if you can commit to that and let me know by xyz date, in the mean time it is imperitive that we let the OMW know what has happened as well as his church pastor. This cannot be allowed to remain in the dark." 

And pick up the phone to dial both numbers on the spot...

Now there are a million ways to tweak what I just said. And you may end up spreading out saying these things depending on how this thing unfolds. But at least this is my best based on my personal experience. Hope something is helpful for you. So sorry all of you are in so much pain. I cried with your last post. I will be praying for your family.

Also, if I were you I would get into professional and or pastoral counseling as well as an infidelity recovery class like what is offered at www.affairrecovery.com. My H and I did the 13 week teleconference class.


----------



## Chaparral

You didn't say she said her affair was over.

Get the vars. You desperately need to know what's going on by hearing who she is talking to and what they are saying.

The one thing you can count on is that the odds she's still lying is about 95%. 

You should have kept her phone and called her bluff. You blew that and now I'm sure she has erased all evidence.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html

Go to that link, you have to find where things really stand and who he is married to.


----------



## jld

I can only imagine how little you slept last night, Still. 

I hope you have contacted the minister she spoke with earlier this week, the one where she left the meeting crying. I am hoping that after hearing everything, he will offer to contact the head minister at the church where this man is the youth minister. I think your talking to the youth minister is a good idea, too, but it would also be good to have pastoral support.

Is your wife showing any remorse this morning? Is she still set on moving out Monday?

I can only imagine how your kids are feeling this morning. 

I would like to see you get some intense, professional Christian counseling, too. You need the support and guidance. It would be great if your wife would do it with you, but even if it is just for you, it would be good.

Crazy as it sounds, I don't want to give up on your marriage, either. Where there is life, there is hope. Where there is love, there is hope.

How far have you planned to carry the exposure? This would normally be the time to do it, but you know the particular sensitivities best.

You said earlier in the thread that a counselor told you your wife has battered spouse syndrome. That is one reason I think you need professional support and counsel. I don't know how much she can handle. And she clearly has some deep issues.

Your family has been heavy on my heart since I read your post last night. I am just so sorry. I know you love her, and you love your kids. I hope you can be that rock for them. They all need you, even if your wife cannot see it right now.

You need divine guidance right now, Still. You need to seek with all your heart to do the right thing. You do not need anyone's approval. But you do need to seek to walk in wisdom and in love.

Just so sorry again. So very sorry.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hey, brother. I am glad you got some semblance of resolution.

I think there is wisdom in Blossom Leigh ' s approach. Despite your emotional pain right now, she is lost, as JLD has said, but maybe you are strong enough to lead her out of this.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> Stillkind... I'm going to share my path with you as it is a blend of the two paths touted here. If it resonates, great, if not .. no worries.
> 
> Before I knew details I told my H "I don't care what you have done I am not leaving you." He cut the affair off within a few days of me saying that. I did not expose it to other family right away and I have a thread that debates those issues if you want to read it Well, I just did it...i
> 
> Today, if I were in your shoes, AFTER telling her I'm not leaving you, I would let her know this right behind it... "I don't care what you've done, I'm not leaving you. Yet I would be remiss if I did not tell you that your choice to cope with marital problems with an affair is 100% wrong and you must learn to choose different for this marriage to survive long term. For myself and our kids I am fully committed to recovering from the poor choices we have made in this marriage and I am asking you to partner with me in that endeavor. Affairs are highly destructive and you can never chose this route again which requires you learning why you chose it and understanding how to stay 100% away from them in the future. You will need to decide if you can commit to that and let me know by xyz date, in the mean time it is imperitive that we let the OMW know what has happened as well as his church pastor. This cannot be allowed to remain in the dark."
> 
> And pick up the phone to dial both numbers on the spot...
> 
> Now there are a million ways to tweak what I just said. And you may end up spreading out saying these things depending on how this thing unfolds. But at least this is my best based on my personal experience. Hope something is helpful for you. So sorry all of you are in so much pain. I cried with your last post. I will be praying for your family.
> 
> Also, if I were you I would get into professional and or pastoral counseling as well as an infidelity recovery class like what is offered at www.affairrecovery.com. My H and I did the 13 week teleconference class.



I wanted to add that my H additionally has anger issues that ended up needing professional help which he did not take me seriously enough until I put him out of the house in Feb of this year. Though he went through the affair class he didn't get serious about being who he needed to be for longterm success until he knew I was willing to walk. Once I put him out he reached out to our church as well as professional counseling. He put in 2 - 6 hours of therapy from March to August of this year. He is now committed to a three year discipleship class with his mentor, so once he decided to go all in, it was evident in his choices. HE self managed. I had to get to the point of no longer accepting poor behavior NOR carrying his emotional load. It allowed space for him to pick it up and own it. There were tumes he would try to put it back on me and I had to say many times "keep your eyes on your own paper" until it became part of him. . His confidence really grew and it was gorgeous to watch. This may not resonate for your situation, but it is part if my picture that is important in understanding our recovery. Hoping the best for yall.


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## farsidejunky

The only draw back BL is that he is competing against her fantasy man. He does not have the leverage of fear over losing him.


----------



## Duguesclin

Still, you indicated that your wife feels that everyone is hurting her. Throw her the life line and go down and get her. She cannot get out on her own. She is hurting too much and is self destructing.

Be the leader she is desperately looking for.

She is looking for someone that will meet her aspiration for a godly man. Be that man. Be selfless and help her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> The only draw back BL is that he is competing against her fantasy man. He does not have the leverage of fear over losing him.


Can you expand what you mean. Not quite following.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

He isn't married. That's the extent of his relationship status that I know.

She worked last night and had to get one of the girls to a basketball tournament this morning. They stayed with her folks, my son and I had tickets already for an event that we went to last night. I didn't know at the time we got were given them that the girls would be with is or I would have gotten more but after yesterday's events it was better they went there anyway.

She didn't come home, I didn't expect her to, it was going to be tight getting there on time as it was. But she didn't come home and didn't text to let me know she wasn't.

I'm going to the church where this guy works tomorrow morning. I want him to see the face of the man whose family will never be the same again because of his "friendship" with my wife. I plan to attend service and since he is the apparent worship leader as well, I hope to be somewhere within his direct line of sight. Front row.

I would like to look at his phone. She deleted their texts but he wouldn't need to probably. I'm tentatively planning to ask for his phone and if not I'll ask for his pastor. I won't be rude but I want to burn a memory in his mind so that whenever he sees her he will see me. If he can live with that, so be it. 

I want him to know that whenever I hear my son cry for his mom, and his mom isn't here because we are no longer together, that I will think of his name. I want something similar for him.

I'm fine for a minute and I'm broken the next. I'm laying on the couch but can't sleep so I get up and clean and try to think positive. That lasts about 5-10 minutes then I'm sitting in the kitchen floor crying like a chick and trying to keep my son from hearing me.

I think of things I want to tell her...like "I love you and this is my family. You can leave if you want, but I will not".... As well as "I despise you right now. I wish I had someone I could text or call, but I dont, my wife does, but it isn't me."

I want to take our pictures down, and then when she comes home and sees it, she'lol hurt too, like I do. But I haven't and I won't now. I'm just going to clean the areas my son and I hang out in for now and try to stay busy. When I'm not doing that, my son and I play with Christmas toys or watch Disney.

That's what is going on today.


----------



## jld

This is heartbreaking, Still. 

Please call both ministers today, right now. Both the one she talked to in that private meeting, and the head pastor of this other man's church. This needs to be exposed. This is not good for that other man. He can get counseling for better boundaries. He may not lose his job if there is early intervention.

_(Gently)_ Still, honey, your wife is not going to stop without deep inner healing. No matter how many men you chase down, it is the hunger inside her that is seeking them out. That hunger has to be addressed.

You cannot sit on this. You must take action.


----------



## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> Can you expand what you mean. Not quite following.


Your husband feared losing you. That gave you the necessary leverage to get him to recognize his behavior, and to kick him out, without him simply walking away. It was his carrot and his stick.

Still does not have this leverage. If he saber rattles, she will probably just say okay and let the marriage die, so she can pursue her more ideal image (albeit misguided) of a man.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Its just not a hunger any man can fill. Unfortunately.


----------



## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> Its just not a hunger any man can fill. Unfortunately.


And we _all_ know this. She does not. Until that is recognized, there is no leverage. 

Still cannot compete with a fantasy.

Still:

JLD is right. Call the ministers today. Stop sitting around feeling like you are helpless. YOU ARE NOT. Get the contact with the ministers and put the last nail in the coffin of this affair.


----------



## Duguesclin

Still, you do not quit in the heat of the battle. It hurts, no question about it. But feeling sorry for yourself will not get you anywhere. She cannot help you. You have to help her.

Follow the advises given to you and contact today the pastors. Connect with your wife. Do not expect her to text you when she should like last night. Be proactive, call her and make sure she knows you care for her.

She cannot be in charge, you are. She cannot save this marriage, you can.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> Your husband feared losing you. That gave you the necessary leverage to get him to recognize his behavior, and to kick him out, without him simply walking away. It was his carrot and his stick.
> 
> Still does not have this leverage. If he saber rattles, she will probably just say okay and let the marriage die, so she can pursue her more ideal image (albeit misguided) of a man.



I agree... Things need to shift in his favor first, thinking......

She does need a life line. I hear that pain.. but I hear his too...


Let me think a bit .. brb


----------



## farsidejunky

She desperately needs the life line.

Still:

You have several posters right now, who have previously disagreed with approaches over the last few days, all agreeing on the same thing:

Steel yourself and throw your wife a life line. DO IT. 

For the love of all things holy, man, that is the last remaining thread of hope for your marriage. If you do not, your marriage is over. I promise you it is. If you do, it may still end. But this is the only option you have to possibly save it, and it has to start somewhere. It has to start with YOU.

There will come a time, later, where you will be able to lay your pain at your wife's feet. And she will be strong enough to hear it, and healed enough to to understand how she contributed. Now is not that time.

THROW HER A LIFE LINE.


----------



## jld

Please listen to far, Still. Please listen. Call those ministers now.


----------



## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> I agree... Things need to shift in his favor first, thinking......


No, they do not.

She does not feel safe. Leveraging _anything_ will only reinforce to her that he is not safe. The more I think about this situation, the more I believe she needs to feel safety from him.

SHE NEEDS THE LIFE LINE.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

One thing I do agree with Dug on is right now she is incapacitated in saving anything, including herself. I was the one who carried the vision, plan and strength to save my marriage until my H regained his capacity.

AND, this is critically important.. as we all know it is important that that minister must be brought out into the light HOW you do that is just as critically important. Do not do it with retribution in your heart. It must come into the light for Christs sake and for the body of Christ, not to inflict injury on top of an already injurious situation.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> No, they do not.
> 
> She does not feel safe. Leveraging _anything_ will only reinforce to her that he is not safe. The more I think about this situation, the more I believe she needs to feel safety from him.
> 
> SHE NEEDS THE LIFE LINE.


But, how is important...

My ex tried that and it misfired

Let me clarify that before leverage he needs things in his favor in her emotionally, so I agree, but there is still the question of how because I went through that and not all "nice" works.


----------



## farsidejunky

Call her and ask her to come home.

_"Wife, is there any feeling of regret over looking at the possible ending of our marriage? If so, then we owe it to our family to work through whatever has happened, and make our marriage great again. It wont be easy, and it is going to hurt at first, but I believe that we can be great again. I am not quitting on you, and I will not allow our family, our marriage, or me to fail. But I need you to take that last thread of possible regret, and use it to take one more chance on me, on us. I believe in you. Will you take that chance?"_

ETA: THROW HER THE LIFE LINE.


----------



## jld

"I have not been the man you needed me to be. Every time I half-listened, every time I pressured you for sex, every time I put myself first without even considering your feelings I was not being the man God wants for you."

"Wife, I am changing. I am not going to be that self-centered, self-pitying man anymore. That is not what God wants for you. I am going to seek to be 'a man after God's own heart' for you."

"Please come home to your family. I love you and I miss you and our kids' hearts are broken. This is not what we want for them."

"Come home, Wife. I am here for you. I am going to change. We are going to heal together."


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Do not take the blame for her actions. She'll only think of you as less worthy and it will enable her to continue.

Do not contact her. If she comes back it needs to be with hat in hand.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> This is heartbreaking, Still.
> 
> Please call both ministers today, right now. *Both the one she talked to in that private meeting, and the head pastor of this other man's church.* This needs to be exposed. This is not good for that other man. He can get counseling for better boundaries. He may not lose his job if there is early intervention.
> 
> _(Gently)_ Still, honey, your wife is not going to stop without deep inner healing. No matter how many men you chase down, it is the hunger inside her that is seeking them out. That hunger has to be addressed.
> 
> You cannot sit on this. You must take action.


I mostly agree with this, but I would not call the POSGOM directly. Call the pastor who has been counseling your wife and ask him directly if he knows she's been cheating on you, then call the POSGOM's head pastor and ask him if he knows what his boy is doing. You have a slight advantage by working through the hierarchy of the church IF they're real churches rather than social clubs with religious trappings. And your pastor should have been counseling her to confess if he knows. If so she should continue with him. If he knows and was not counseling her to confess she should find someone else, preferably an actual shrink, to take over. And if he doesn't know then you and he both know she's been lying to her pastor/counselor about it. This last possibility is bad, you've probably got a write off if it's the case.

I know one thing for certain: following the advice Dug, jld and Blonde have been giving you up to now without getting the interloper out of your family would have driven the final nails into your marriages coffin. If you can't drive him off you're doomed. You cannot let her see you as weak as long as you're competing with this other man. 

Someone posted this earlier but I want to emphasize it a little: Which came first? Did she decide to replace you and then find him, or did she find him then start re-writing history and demonizing you to justify it in her mind? I think this is important to determine your path forward.

Also, see if you can take the kids with you to that church tomorrow. That way he'll be able to see the family he's breaking up and their presence will keep you from doing anything stupid.


----------



## jld

Those _are_ the two ministers I was talking about, NF. The one she met with privately that she came home crying from, and the OM's boss.

No need to call anyone "POS." This is a Christian thread, remember?

I think taking the kids to the service is an excellent idea.


----------



## happy as a clam

farsidejunky said:


> Call her and ask her to come home.
> 
> _"Wife, is there any feeling of regret over looking at the possible ending of our marriage? If so, then we owe it to our family to work through whatever has happened, and make our marriage great again. It wont be easy, and it is going to hurt at first, but I believe that we can be great again. I am not quitting on you, and I will not allow our family, our marriage, or me to fail. But I need you to take that last thread of possible regret, and use it to take one more chance on me, on us. I believe in you. Will you take that chance?"_
> 
> ETA: THROW HER THE LIFE LINE.


Nothing wrong with this. It might work.



jld said:


> "I have not been the man you needed me to be. Every time I half-listened, every time I pressured you for sex, every time I put myself first without even considering your feelings I was not being the man God wants for you."
> 
> *NOOO!!! Do NOT say this! This is simply condoning HER bad decision to cheat and blaming himself for everything.*
> 
> "Wife, I am changing. *I am not going to be that self-centered, self-pitying man anymore.* That is not what God wants for you. I am going to seek to be 'a man after God's own heart' for you."
> 
> *NOOOO!!! Do NOT say this! What about HER decision to be self-centered when she chose to stray from the marriage?*
> 
> "Please come home to your family. I love you and I miss you and our kids' hearts are broken. This is not what we want for them."
> 
> *Nothing wrong with this.*
> 
> "Come home, Wife. I am here for you. *I am going to change.* We are going to heal together."
> 
> *She needs to change too. In a big way.*


Do not plead and accept all the blame -- you will come across as weak. Nothing wrong with telling her you want to save your marriage, but in NO WAY is this all your fault.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> "i have not been the man you needed me to be. Every time i half-listened, every time i pressured you for sex, every time i put myself first without even considering your feelings i was not being the man god wants for you."
> 
> "wife, i am changing. I am not going to be that self-centered, self-pitying man anymore. That is not what god wants for you. I am going to seek to be 'a man after god's own heart' for you."
> 
> "please come home to your family. I love you and i miss you and our kids' hearts are broken. This is not what we want for them."
> 
> "come home, wife. I am here for you. I am going to change. We are going to heal together."


*Oh my God, stop blaming the victim! It is not the betrayed spouses fault! 

Still, do not accept responsibility for this! It's on your wife, not you, and if you tell her it's your fault she'll never address the issues within her that led her to this point. 
*


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> "I have not been the man you needed me to be. Every time I half-listened, every time I pressured you for sex, every time I put myself first without even considering your feelings I was not being the man God wants for you."
> 
> "Wife, I am changing. I am not going to be that self-centered, self-pitying man anymore. That is not what God wants for you. I am going to seek to be 'a man after God's own heart' for you."
> 
> "Please come home to your family. I love you and I miss you and our kids' hearts are broken. This is not what we want for them."
> 
> "Come home, Wife. I am here for you. I am going to change. We are going to heal together."


"And please, if you MUST screw OM, wait until I'm asleep, ok? Pretty please?"


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Those _are_ the two ministers I was talking about, NF. The one she met with privately that she came home crying from, and the OM's boss.
> 
> *No need to call anyone "POS." This is a Christian thread, remember?*
> 
> I think taking the kids to the service is an excellent idea.


It's not a Christian thread, it's a TAM thread involving Christians. And on TAM a person who is interfering in a family is a POS.


----------



## farsidejunky

NF, WOM and Turnera, I think the point you are missing is talking her off the proverbial ledge. 

I see this very much that way. She is staring into the precipice, deciding whether or not to leap. When someone has reached that point, you do not look at them and tell them what _they_ did to get themselves there. You say whatever it takes to get them off the ledge, _then_ you start talking to them about what led them there, with counseling. 

Do whatever it takes to get her off the ledge.

THROW HER THE LIFE LINE.

ETA: That was the beauty in BL's start to her reconciliation. She could have pushed her hubby off the ledge. But that would have certainly ended her marriage.


----------



## jld

Blonde, we need your wisdom here. Far is doing a great job, but you would be a great addition.

NF, humility is one of the characteristics of a Christian man. We are trying to reach her heart. His vulnerability and transparency can do that.


----------



## Abc123wife

jld said:


> "I have not been the man you needed me to be. *WHAT?!!!* Every time I half-listened, every time I pressured you for sex *NONE in the past 6 months!!!* every time I put myself first without even considering your feelings *HUH?! What? Not allowing her crazy chasing/fantasy of another man? *I was not being the man God wants for you."
> 
> "Wife, I am changing. I am not going to be that self-centered, self-pitying man anymore. That is not what God wants for you. I am going to seek to be 'a man after God's own heart' for you."
> 
> "Please come home to your family. I love you and I miss you and our kids' hearts are broken. This is not what we want for them."
> 
> "Come home, Wife. I am here for you. I am going to change. We are going to heal together."


His begging his cheating wife will NOT save his marriage. His wife has tried to blame shift everything on her devoted husband all while being devious and cheating in at least an emotional affair! Begging her to come back and taking all the blame for her evil deception will make her husband pathetic in his wife's eyes and he will NEVER win her back doing that!

You have to just admit that your advise all along has been dead wrong. He cannot win back his wife by nicing his way back. His wife is not attracted to a wimpy "godly" man! His wife is a serial cheater that wants men willing to have affairs with a married women! That is her MO it appears.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> It's not a Christian thread, it's a TAM thread involving Christians. And on TAM a person who is interfering in a family is a POS.


Well, I do not think Still's wife nor the OM are anything other than misguided children of God. Our hope is to get them on a healthier path.

If we think of them in those terms you have mentioned, it is easy to lose faith.


----------



## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> NF, WOM and Turnera, I think the point you are missing is talking her off the proverbial ledge.
> 
> I see this very much that way. She is staring into the precipice, deciding whether or not to leap. When someone has reached that point, you do not look at them and tell them what _they_ did to get themselves there. You say whatever it takes to get them off the ledge,


I'm sorry, but you DON'T accept blame for everything. All that does is teach them later that you lied to them. Later, when you expect them to own their side. You can extend a lifeline WITHOUT saying "I'm a douche and you have every reason to hate me."


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Blonde, we need your wisdom here. Far is doing a great job, but you would be a great addition.
> 
> NF, humility is one of the characteristics of a Christian man. We are trying to reach her heart. His vulnerability and transparency can do that.


Humility is great. Taking the blame for something you are not responsible for is not humility. 

Once again you're advising Still based on ignorance. It might be great advice or it might kill any chance of saving the marriage, at this point we don't know which. I suspect she has a mental issue, most likely FOO based, that causes her to sabotage her relationships. If I'm right then following your advice will prevent reconciliation, not help it. 

Your advice is based on your assumption that she's a wholly blameless angel and Still is 100% responsible for the problems in his marriage. If I thought that was true I'd be right there with you in giving that advice, but I think there's very little chance of that.

In my opinion your advice is actively inimical to saving this marriage, and if he follows it it may well result in the failure of her future relationships as well.


----------



## jld

ABC, reread Far's post about talking her off the ledge. I think humility on Still's part might persuade her to give it one more try. When she is stronger, she needs to look at herself very clearly. She won't get better without being completely honest with herself.

But for right now, I think he has to persuade her off the ledge.

And I don't know if anything other than gentleness and kindness and vulnerability could work.


----------



## farsidejunky

turnera said:


> I'm sorry, but you DON'T accept blame for everything. All that does is teach them later that you lied to them. Later, when you expect them to own their side. You can extend a lifeline WITHOUT saying "I'm a douche and you have every reason to hate me."


Please reread my wording of what he should say to his wife. I agree that he should not blame himself for everything. The only thing I would take blame for is not being the best man I could be.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Well, I do not think Still's wife nor the OM are anything other than misguided children of God. Our hope is to get them on a healthier path.
> 
> If we think of them in those terms you have mentioned, it is easy to lose faith.


Oh please. The only way to tell if someone is really a Christian is by their actions, and these two are acting like POS cheaters.


----------



## Abc123wife

jld said:


> Well, I do not think Still's wife nor the OM are anything other than misguided children of God. Our hope is to get them on a healthier path.
> 
> If we think of them in those terms you have mentioned, it is easy to lose faith.


Maybe OM, WW, and the OP can all get together and sing kumbayah and that will solve it all then! Please stop with all the godly crap. His wife has been up to her shenanigans for months and feels no remorse in the least. She refused to admit to anything and did nothing but blame the OP for all that was wrong in the marriage instead of admitting to her affair! How godly is that?!


----------



## happy as a clam

Abc123wife said:


> His begging his cheating wife will NOT save his marriage. *His wife has tried to blame shift everything on her devoted husband all while being devious and cheating in at least an emotional affair!* Begging her to come back and taking all the blame for her evil deception will make her husband pathetic in his wife's eyes and he will NEVER win her back doing that!
> 
> You have to just admit that your advise all along has been dead wrong. *He cannot win back his wife by nicing his way back.* His wife is not at tracked to a whimsy "godly" man! His wife is a serial cheater that wants men willing to have affairs with a married women! That is her MO it appears.


:iagree:

*OP... Do not GROVEL for her affections or her return!!!*

I am beginning to feel physically nauseous from some of the advice given on this thread. OP, I wouldn't blame you if you're thoroughly confused by now by the two completely opposite "camps" of advice you're receiving.

I hope you'll take the time to read many other threads in the CWI forum -- it will help you wade through all of this and hopefully choose the path that is most likely to help you save your marriage.

I think it's obvious which camp I am in.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> Oh please. The only way to tell if someone is really a Christian is by their actions, and these two are acting like POS cheaters.


Well, I think they are misguided. I want to have hope for them.


----------



## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> Please reread my wording of what he should say to his wife. I agree that he should not blame himself for everything. The only thing I would take blame for is not being the best man I could be.


I was responding to jld's choice or words.


----------



## turnera

"Wife, I love you. We can work this out. I don't want to lose you. Let's talk to someone, ok?"


----------



## happy as a clam

turnera said:


> "Wife, I love you. We can work this out. I don't want to lose you. Let's talk to someone, ok?"


*Yes!!! This.*

And notice there's no mention of "It's all my fault" or "I am the one who needs to change" or "I will become a better man" or "I am the who caused you to stray"???


----------



## farsidejunky

Nucking Futs said:


> Oh please. The only way to tell if someone is really a Christian is by their actions, and these two are acting like POS cheaters.


Even Christians are sinners, NF. It is only by the grace of God, through the blood of Jesus, that we are forgiven as Christians. 

Even then, it does not mean we stop struggling or stop sinning. 

No matter how hard we try, we all fall short of the holiness and grace of God.


----------



## jld

That is correct, ABC, that she is not being the wife she is supposed to be. The process does not end in one day. 

Of course to heal she needs to be transparent and take responsibility. But she is probably going to need time to get there.

My concern with a complete intervention, in terms of making a big FB announcement, calling everybody she knows, announcing it from both pulpits tomorrow, etc., is that she will indeed jump off the cliff. We are trying to throw her a lifeline.


----------



## Abc123wife

jld said:


> ABC, reread Far's post about talking her off the ledge. I think humility on Still's part might persuade her to give it one more try. When she is stronger, she needs to look at herself very clearly. She won't get better without being completely honest with herself.
> 
> But for right now, I think he has to persuade her off the ledge.
> 
> And I don't know if anything other than gentleness and kindness and vulnerability could work.


Talk her off the edge? You're joking, right? No, until SHE is the one begging to save this marriage, until she has deep regret and remorse, it is pointless! Why would the OP have to persuade a cheating spouse to return to the marriage? She needs to persuade HIM that she has remorse and is worthy for him to accept his cheating wife back!


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> "Wife, I love you. We can work this out. I don't want to lose you. Let's talk to someone, ok?"


That is good, too.


----------



## farsidejunky

happy as a clam said:


> *Yes!!! This.*
> 
> And notice there's no mention of "It's all my fault" or "I am the one who needs to change" or "I will become a better man" or "I am the who caused you to stray"???


She is STARVING for leadership. This does nothing to show her he is ready to step up and lead.


----------



## jld

ABC, I think she is too weak right now. I think he is the stronger one in this marriage.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Ok, lets not overwhelm this thread right now. Still is in horrendous pain, so I want to speak to that pain right now and begin to shift a perspective....

Still, Lets address the perspective of this other man. He is a "man of god" who has chosen to participate in destroying your family. He is unmarried, why? How many times has he done this? Is your wife the only one? He needs exposure. So therefore he has nothing on you as a man. He is at the height of hypocrisy. This is what you need to internalize. That your wife is blind, in over her head and doesn't even possess what she THINKS she is looking for let alone with THIS guy. So do not let this guy intimidate you regardless of the outcome of this. Her clarity compass is broken right now. Rest in that to keep your own thoughts clear. 

Part of my life line would be... Wife, I know are looking for a man of God, but I love you too much regardless of what happens with us to watch you choose this man of God who choses an affair from the pulpit. You deserve better than that and I know I am that man even with my flaws. But, I will not wait on you forever. I will not allow another man to remain in between us. At some point I will have to move on.

Then just be silent for now. You can bring in a timeframe later. For right now give her time to consider your words.

It communicates safety.. and communicates she has a decision to make.

All of this is IF you can move forward with what she has done.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Let her leap.


----------



## happy as a clam

farsidejunky said:


> She is STARVING for leadership. This does nothing to show her he is ready to step up and lead.


*She is not starving for leadership... she is starving for COUNSELING.*

And hopefully NOT from a Christian counselor (she seems to have trouble with those), but rather a trained infidelity counselor who can help her sort out FOO issues, her history of cheating, and her previous divorce which she still feels guilty about. She can also counsel with her pastor at the same time -- no doubt she is struggling with faith issues -- if she finds comfort in that.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

If I contact his pastor today, it will take away some of the surprise when I show up tomorrow. I am now considering bringing my son. If I do, obviously it will change how him and I can talk...and when I crush his phone when we're in his office, it will scare my son. That's the memory I wanted him to have. I doubt he would tell too many people that I smashed his phone in front of his face. That little phone has been the source of a lot of pain.
So if I bring my son, I will mainly just confront him. At that point I would also be more inclined to meet his pastor, too. I'm there to make a memory that he won't soon forget. If I attend and say "hi, I'm the other guy" and that's it, that's weaker than not going at all.

I will likely tell her, without apologizing, that I love her. I've apologized enough. Sincerely, too. I try to be sensitive to her heart but fixing this is beyond me. I can only address the affair so it isn't as alluring. If im too much of a hothead jerk, it might endear him to her more. I just have to make a strong presence known.

There was a question about when she sought him out. She said she added him like anyone else (to me), in a letter she said she was "so glad she sent him a request". Did the same thing to me. Looked me up after 5 years. She told me that it wasn't planned but the hurt that she felt from everything else led up to her being open to a guy who was an old friend and didn't try to talk to her about anything sexual, he was "just interested in her as a person and it felt good."

She reminds me that they only talked and texted, and only talked a few times. Whereas we had sex before she was even divorced...so this affair is apparently much more pure in heart.

I reminded her (yesterday) that she pursued me. That I told her no and she continued. She is the one that was rocking my world, when she got on top of me, for me it was like a dream come true and it basically all went down (morally) from there. Which she now regrets. 

So that is haunting us. I told her I didn't think as much about it...feeling like I had waited for years for this girl....she pops up out of the blue...the abuse factor took away some of my concern about the fact that the divorce wasn't final. He was also apparently seeing the girl he is no married to. 
I regret it now. In the meantime, my other relationship (with the gf/friend that the texts had been to) was going down again, like it had times in the past. She is a great girl, we just never could make it happen, too many differences in the end but still respected each other. She (the exgf) told me it was okay if I "needed to get my needs met" by someone else while we weren't together...she is more open like that. I didn't want that. I told her about my now wife and my wife and I began our relationship. Both of them knew about each other completely when all this started happening. 

I do believe her heart hurts. I don't believe she is evil. I do know that I can't trust her at this point and that right now, she isn't as remorseful as a remorseful person should be. She may legitimately feel justified in somehow handling "this affair" better than ours. I understand karma. 

They all came home a little bit ago, the tournament was later than I thought so she came home and showered. We didn't talk. The middle girl came and sat on my lap and we watched some videos together with my son. 

I had turned a picture over this morning, in our bedroom. I was going to take one down but I didn't and then I forgot about it becasue I wasn't expecting them home.

I will talk to my pastor today. Still planning to hold out until I go there tomorrow, for the other pastor.


----------



## happy as a clam

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> If I contact his pastor today, it will take away some of the surprise when I show up tomorrow. I am now considering bringing my son. If I do, obviously it will change how him and I can talk...and when I crush his phone when we're in his office, it will scare my son. That's the memory I wanted him to have. I doubt he would tell too many people that I smashed his phone in front of his face. That little phone has been the source of a lot of pain.


Do NOT bring your son! That would be completely irresponsible and a judge would not look kindly on that if/when it came time for a custody hearing. Also, it will be emotionally scarring for your son... is that what you want?

Do NOT smash his phone -- he will then call the police and you will be arrested for destroying his property, possibly for attempted assault, depending on if he chooses to file a report.

C'mon Still... be SMART!


----------



## jld

So glad to hear you are going to speak to your pastor today. I am sure he will give you direction on how best to proceed.

Those girls must love you very much. I can only imagine how shaken all three kids are.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

This trust issue is huge right now.

But your kids are a bigger issue. 

There is a path out of this if you are both willing.

And yes, working on me is right... Sometimes letting them leap is the best choice. 

She has to figure out this "hunting" she does. Or it will never work...


----------



## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> If I contact his pastor today, it will take away some of the surprise when I show up tomorrow. I am now considering bringing my son. If I do, obviously it will change how him and I can talk...*and when I crush his phone when we're in his office,* it will scare my son. That's the memory I wanted him to have. I doubt he would tell too many people that I smashed his phone in front of his face. That little phone has been the source of a lot of pain.
> So if I bring my son, I will mainly just confront him. At that point I would also be more inclined to meet his pastor, too. I'm there to make a memory that he won't soon forget. If I attend and say "hi, I'm the other guy" and that's it, that's weaker than not going at all.
> 
> I will likely tell her, without apologizing, that I love her. I've apologized enough. Sincerely, too. I try to be sensitive to her heart but fixing this is beyond me. I can only address the affair so it isn't as alluring. If im too much of a hothead jerk, it might endear him to her more. I just have to make a strong presence known.
> 
> There was a question about when she sought him out. She said she added him like anyone else (to me), in a letter she said she was "so glad she sent him a request". Did the same thing to me. Looked me up after 5 years. She told me that it wasn't planned but the hurt that she felt from everything else led up to her being open to a guy who was an old friend and didn't try to talk to her about anything sexual, he was "just interested in her as a person and it felt good."
> 
> She reminds me that they only talked and texted, and only talked a few times. Whereas we had sex before she was even divorced...so this affair is apparently much more pure in heart.
> 
> I reminded her (yesterday) that she pursued me. That I told her no and she continued. She is the one that was rocking my world, when she got on top of me, for me it was like a dream come true and it basically all went down (morally) from there. Which she now regrets.
> 
> So that is haunting us. I told her I didn't think as much about it...feeling like I had waited for years for this girl....she pops up out of the blue...the abuse factor took away some of my concern about the fact that the divorce wasn't final. He was also apparently seeing the girl he is no married to.
> I regret it now. In the meantime, my other relationship (with the gf/friend that the texts had been to) was going down again, like it had times in the past. She is a great girl, we just never could make it happen, too many differences in the end but still respected each other. She (the exgf) told me it was okay if I "needed to get my needs met" by someone else while we weren't together...she is more open like that. I didn't want that. I told her about my now wife and my wife and I began our relationship. Both of them knew about each other completely when all this started happening.
> 
> I do believe her heart hurts. I don't believe she is evil. I do know that I can't trust her at this point and that right now, she isn't as remorseful as a remorseful person should be. She may legitimately feel justified in somehow handling "this affair" better than ours. I understand karma.
> 
> They all came home a little bit ago, the tournament was later than I thought so she came home and showered. We didn't talk. The middle girl came and sat on my lap and we watched some videos together with my son.
> 
> I had turned a picture over this morning, in our bedroom. I was going to take one down but I didn't and then I forgot about it becasue I wasn't expecting them home.
> 
> I will talk to my pastor today. Still planning to hold out until I go there tomorrow, for the other pastor.



Damaging his phone in any way is weak. It shows that you don't have the nerve to hurt him so you hurt an inanimate object that belongs to him. It's the action of a pu$$y and will have the opposite effect from what you intend. Do not damage his phone. 

Do not do anything that might be construed as violent, you'll slip yourself right into the "abuser" socket in her head.


----------



## happy as a clam

And it's very good that you clearly see the parallels between the way she began your affair/relationship and the way she began this one.

You clearly see her pattern... patterns usually mean problems. She has serious issues that need to be worked out with an infidelity counselor.

And very good to see that you are NOT accepting the blame for her straying *as others here have suggested* you do. YOU are not the problem.

Her pattern is HER problem. You are the unfortunate VICTIM.


----------



## jld

You have to stay calm, Still. You have to think of the long term best interests of your son. A father with a police record is not what you want for him.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

The phone-deal...Im not a violent person, I have no intentions of violence, I agree that that would make me look worse and him better. The phone, I thought, sent a message as well being symbolic. That may be better played out in my head.

If I were to take my son, obviously nothing that resembled anything other than talking would take place. Him meeting myself and my son would be the message. But it could also make my wife flip a bit at the thought of me going to meet him and bringing my son.

I will reconsider the phone...grudgingly but I do see your point.


----------



## happy as a clam

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I will reconsider the phone...grudgingly but I do see your point.


I would reconsider taking your son too.

Yes, your wife will flip out that you took him -- but not in the way that you think. She will use it against you when it comes time for a Shared Parenting Plan. Your son is not part of this train-wreck she has created... very unfair to drag him into it.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Agreed


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Long term, what do you want OP


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

A legitimate second chance at my wife's heart and our family.


----------



## jld

How do you think you can get that?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Strength, love and compassion.
Other than that, Im at a loss.

Trying to keep my anger and hurt in check.


----------



## jld

What time is your meeting today with your pastor?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

He isn't in town. We texted. He said we can talk if I want to call but when I talk I cry. When I think about talking I cry. 
Texting and typing are the best for right now.


----------



## jld

It's okay to cry, Still. You are hurting. He will not think less of you.

I think you need some live support. No one expects you to go through this alone.

Have you talked to anyone live? A sibling, a friend you trust?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

No.
I can't get the words out. Typing this floods my eyes. I'm heading into the gym. Can't look like a big baby pushing weight.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Its because it keeps you in logic mode which is good. I did the same, except I worked very difficult 1000 piece puzzles of my favorite topic.. horses. 

Right now, your decision about what you want is good enough.

How will present itself as you seek wise counsel.

But do know.. enabling poor behavior in her or yourself is the antithesis of success in your desire of a legitimate shot at her heart or longterm success.

ETA: gym is good, will be praying


----------



## farsidejunky

Still, make the call. Especially if he is the same pastor that has been counseling her.

Nobody thinks less of you if you are crying except YOU.

MAKE THE CALL.


----------



## Chaparral

Go to this link. CheaterVille :: Don't Be the Last to Know Print off the first page. Take two copies with you and give them to the POSOM and his pastor. Tell him if he ever contacts your wife again he will be on cheaterville.com until the end of time .


----------



## Chaparral

JLD, if you hang around the infidelity threads very long you are going to lose a lot of your optimism. No matter what you wish were true, the only thing that works with cheaters confusing lust with love is another kind of love, tough love. Only when the reality of broken families and children breaks through their selfishness can they repair their marriages.

Taking the blame for their actions just multiplies the damage.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Thank you Chap, I hadn't thought about that.


----------



## Abc123wife

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Strength, love and compassion.
> Other than that, Im at a loss.
> 
> Trying to keep my anger and hurt in check.


Where is your wife right now? What us she doing to make amends for all her lies? 

Just curious what she got the OM for Christmas? (Don't let her say she didn't). When is the last time she had any contact (text, email, facebook, etc) with him? Has she agreed to no contact with him?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

According to her, they haven't actually met yet. And yes, she said she got him nothing. That she didn't consider it and besides....they haven't actually met yet.
So, there is that. What you believe is up to you. I don't know really what I think about that.

I will confront him tomorrow. I can't say I'm excited but I do know it is necessary and will happen.


----------



## farsidejunky

Is she home yet?

And what else has been covered with her?


----------



## Duguesclin

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> According to her, they haven't actually met yet. And yes, she said she got him nothing. That she didn't consider it and besides....they haven't actually met yet.
> So, there is that. What you believe is up to you. I don't know really what I think about that.
> 
> I will confront him tomorrow. I can't say I'm excited but I do know it is necessary and will happen.


You need to talk to other people in your community. Relying on TAM advice is not the healthiest. Someone is always going to suggest it is worse than it actually is.

Even if you can't stop crying, call your pastor. I am sure he will help you. 

You need to reach out. If you need help, you have to get it from your community. Your wife cannot do it. She needs your help.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I left, went to a nearby town...same one my family has been in today, did some clothes shopping. I've lost about 30lbs throughout all this. Still have a good couple hours before I get home.


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## jld

Still, have you consulted with anyone IRL about confronting the youth minister tomorrow? Did you mention it to your pastor today?


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## Blossom Leigh

My H and I are praying you have caught this in time. Your wife needs to understand how to get her needs met outside of a man. The kind of healing she needs is only by the ONE who can heal her. Humans will ALWAYS fall short, but HE won't. 
This musuc minister MUST be exposed.

Praying his angels surround you.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Sorry, what is IRL? I told my pastor. He told me he'd pray but knows I am wise.


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## jld

In real life. Did you mention you were planning to confront the youth pastor tomorrow? He did not offer any specific counsel on that?


----------



## Duguesclin

Skill, I understand you may feel ashamed to be seen crying. 

5 years ago my older son was diagnosed with cancer. I cried for 2 days, even in front of my 10 year old son. I could not stop it. I was so scared he would die. 

But then 2 things happened. First I talked to a social worker at the hospital while waiting for my son's surgery. She was really helpful. It was only 15-20mn in a hallway, but it was really good. She gave me hope that he may live. She was positive and reminded me that I needed to be strong for him. 

The second thing was to see my other children. I realized that, whatever happened to my son, good or bad, life goes on.

Come out of your shell and talk to real people, not only TAM. TAM has limited value. We see only your words. In real life people see all of you. A phone call to your pastor is far better than posts from anonymous people like me.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Thanks Blossom.

I did tell my pastor that I would be attending the other guys church service so i could introduce myself. I think that's how I put it.


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## jld

I think it would be wise to speak to the youth minister's boss, Still. Could you call the head pastor of that church now?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I'd rather be there in person. I can completely handle myself in a dignified manner.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Thanks Dug.


----------



## jld

You don't want him to know you are coming?

I just think it would be a protection for you to have the head pastor know a confrontation is coming. I think emotions could rise unexpectedly.

Still, I was furious with the doctor who initially told me our son was fine, when, in fact, he had leukemia. I was livid, to tell the truth. 

But I could not just stand there and scream at him. I had to get my son to a doctor who knew what he was doing. My energy had to go in a constructive direction, and quickly.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I'd rather be there in person. I can completely handle myself in a dignified manner.


This is KEY... Preserve YOUR dignity.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> No.
> I can't get the words out. Typing this floods my eyes. I'm heading into the gym. Can't look like a big baby pushing weight.


Then you're going to cry in front of both the pastors, too. Which is fine with me. Just don't let your WIFE see you crying and don't let the OM see you crying. THEY need to see you mad as HELL that she's now proving to be a serial cheater.


----------



## turnera

Chaparral said:


> Go to this link. CheaterVille :: Don't Be the Last to Know Print off the first page. Take two copies with you and give them to the POSOM and his pastor. Tell him if he ever contacts your wife again he will be on cheaterville.com until the end of time .


THIS, actually, just might work. Tell him that IN FRONT OF his pastor/boss.


----------



## Duguesclin

turnera said:


> Then you're going to cry in front of both the pastors, too. Which is fine with me. Just don't let your WIFE see you crying and don't let the OM see you crying. THEY need to see you mad as HELL that she's now proving to be a serial cheater.


What is wrong with crying? Pretending when you are hurting is a recipe for disaster.

I am not sure it is wise to confront someone when you are not handling your emotions well. This is why I do not think he should see that other guy alone.


----------



## turnera

Did I just not say 'which is fine with me'? I also added he shouldn't be crying to the OTHER MAN. Cry away to the pastors so they see the magnitude of damage.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I will be able to handle myself when I see him. There will be no tears from this guy.

I spoke with my pastor. We prayed over the situation. He understands my need to go there tomorrow.


----------



## jld

Did he give you advice regarding contacting the man's boss?


----------



## Duguesclin

turnera said:


> Then you're going to cry in front of both the pastors, too. Which is fine with me. Just don't let your WIFE see you crying and don't let the OM see you crying. THEY need to see you mad as HELL that she's now proving to be a serial cheater.


Why should not he cry in front of his wife? 

As far as the other guy, keep in mind he may not be that aware of the situation he is in. She never met him and Still has not seen the texts. This other guy may just view it as flirting.


----------



## turnera

Because according to Psychology 101, when a woman is in love with OM, her husband crying only makes her want OM more. Women crave strength in men. Not crybabies. In 15 years, I have NEVER seen a man cry - or nice - his WW back home.


----------



## Chaparral

Unless you are traveling a long way to see her preacher boyfriend, its definitely unbelievable they haven't been meeting. All those love words, her kicking you out, cutting off sex with you, treating you like leper. Badmouthing you to her friend. Pretending you don't exist. Refusing to touch you. Lying to you month after month. Won't even cook for her husband and let him eat dinner with his kids.

Yeah, .......no I'm not believing anything that comes out of her mouth. Not buying any of her Christian guilt either. There was a thread from Texas a few years ago where the preacher was banging his women followers and basically got caught in bed with one. I would say this is close to that bad. She found him then found the excuses to divorce and get you the hell out of the way.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I will be able to handle myself when I see him. There will be no tears from this guy.
> 
> I spoke with my pastor. We prayed over the situation. He understands my need to go there tomorrow.


Is this the same pastor your wife is 'confessing' to?


----------



## Duguesclin

turnera said:


> Because according to Psychology 101, when a woman is in love with OM, her husband crying only makes her want OM more. Women crave strength in men. Not crybabies. In 15 years, I have NEVER seen a man cry - or nice - his WW back home.


I do not disagree with you. It is not by crying that he is going to win his wife back. But if he feels like crying, what can he do? He cannot pretend to be strong when he is not.

His wife needs to see a change in him. He needs to be strong. It is the only way he can win her back.


----------



## Chaparral

Duguesclin said:


> I do not disagree with you. It is not by crying that he is going to win his wife back. But if he feels like crying, what can he do? He cannot pretend to be strong when he is not.
> 
> His wife needs to see a change in him. He needs to be strong. It is the only way he can win her back.


If he needs to cry he needs to get away by himself. Now, he should show nothing but strength and determination.


----------



## jld

Well, tbh, my perspective shifted earlier today away from saving the marriage to limiting the damage caused by a potential confrontation. I just don't see the sense of urgency I think saving the marriage would require.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Well, tbh, my perspective shifted earlier today away from saving the marriage to limiting the damage caused by a potential confrontation. I just don't see the sense of urgency I think saving the marriage would require.


By perspective do you mean goal? I don't disagree that one goal should be limiting the damage caused by a confrontation. I suspect we're not likely to be in agreement about damage to what, or at least not the priority. In my book the priority should be minimizing the damage to Still, then the marriage, then his wife. No need to minimize the damage to POSGOM, let him receive the full measure of what he has earned.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Sorry jld, but OP is still focused on saving the marriage. His is the opinion that counts.


----------



## jld

I hope I'm wrong. I just do not see the sense of urgency I think is needed to save it.

I don't want him to end up with a police record tomorrow afternoon. Emotions can become intense unexpectedly. 

Still, is the purpose of not telling the head pastor the element of surprise? You want to catch the youth pastor unawares and ask for his phone? And if he will not give it, then you will tell the head pastor?


----------



## turnera

Do you know that this youth pastor knows your face?

IMO, the best situation would be to walk up to BOTH of them at the same time - with evidence in your hand - and tell the head pastor that the youth pastor is trying to screw your wife.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Exposing the minister is critical, its just super important you stay out of jail and clear police record for your kids sake.


----------



## Duguesclin

turnera said:


> Do you know that this youth pastor knows your face?
> 
> IMO, the best situation would be to walk up to BOTH of them at the same time - *with evidence in your hand* - and tell the head pastor that the youth pastor is trying to screw your wife.


What evidence? What his wife told him?

His wife may be lying and there is more going on that what she confessed. But she may be saying the truth and there is almost nothing, just a young guy having a flirt with a gal he never physically met.

Still's focus seems to be on himself and on that other guy. He has done nothing today to bring leadership to this marriage.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Duguesclin said:


> What evidence? What his wife told him?
> 
> His wife may be lying and there is more going on that what she confessed. But she may be saying the truth and there is almost nothing, just a young guy having a flirt with a gal he never physically met.
> 
> Still's focus seems to be on himself and on that other guy. He has done nothing today to bring leadership to this marriage.


Other than decide he is all in...


----------



## Tobyboy

Guys...chances are that the OM had been warned about being found out and damage control is being done as I write this post. Stillkind's WW is devoted to the OM and will do anything to protect him(if I remember correctly, she wrote something to this in her un-sent letters). 

Stillkind, I hope you are still looking at online records. There you will see for yourself who your WW is devoted to. Oh, if she was gone today for a long while, believe that your WW met with her OM to warn him personally. 

My advise is to have copies of your proof when you confront because they will deny everything. 
Wait.....you actually don't have any proof, only what your WW has said.....right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I thought the letters were to a different guy last summer.


----------



## Tobyboy

jld said:


> I thought the letters were to a different guy last summer.


Umm....I think it's the same guy? Right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Tobyboy said:


> Umm....I think it's the same guy? Right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know. I thought the guy now was a new one from the fall, when she kicked Still out and filled out part of divorce papers.

The one from last summer was a missionary leader who broke it off with her, as I understood it. I thought that is why people are calling her a serial cheater (2 guys in 6 months).


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Op, you are in a unique position to help her see the only one she needs is Jesus.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I definitely shouldn't be reading this before I go to bed.

She was gone but had all three kids.

Yes, I do want some element of surprise. He will know my face. 

She is sleeping downstairs tonight. That makes me sick because I know what it implies.

I came home and went to bed early. She seemed nothing but cold and mildly social. I want to ask her what she is s mad about, I'm the one being cheated on. 

I went to go pray with her but she is downstairs, apparently in one of the girls rooms becuase she isn't on the couch and didn't leave the house. I checked the garage. 

I just went into the living room and dropped to my knees and prayed there. I'm not going to try to hunt her down so she can hear me pray.

I'm not In a crying mood anymore. At least not right now. I'm irritated at her response. It is all but over, watching her behave this way.

The pastor is the one she sought out. Ours. She never mentioned anyone else to him.
I know what that insinuates, too.

Makes me hate the guy more. We were fine 7 months ago and now we are basically in line for a divorce and he is the only real variable that has been added.

For her to tell me that she has told him before that she loves him...he is not an innocent bystander. 

Makes me want to go down and talk to her again right now but I know it won't help anything. Its almost one of thosebl situations where fighting is at least putting me near her. Dumb, I know. So I'm going to try to sleep now.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Shut that all out of your mind Op.

As fast as that fog rolled in is just as fast as it can roll out. Just hang on through the storm for now...


----------



## honcho

The OM will not give you his phone and I would be kind of surprised if he is even there tomorrow. Either your spouse has warned him to protect him or the pastor has said something to avoid a scene at the church. 

Im on the fence about actually confronting the OM at the moment. Whether you believe you can keep your composure or not you will truly have no idea until you are standing in front of him. Im one of the more patient people in the world, I didn’t see the OM in my situation for a couple of months and the first time I did my blood boiled. I left to avoid the scene. 

You will also realize in time, he isn’t the problem. Your wife decision making and choices are the problem. He cast no magic spell over her. He plays a part and has some responsibility don’t get me wrong but your spouse had a choice. She probably followed the same pattern as she did with you and she pursued him and has probably morphed herself into a more religious person because she feels that is what the OM wants. She wouldn’t be the first to re-invent themselves to obtain someone.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Honcho has got some great points and not knowing how you will react until you are there is a very real issue. I just saw a car almost identical to my OW's car close to my office and I had a serious visceral reaction and my H's affair was two years ago. Be very aware and willing to pull the plug if you have to.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Be safe today.

Be dignified today.

Just expose.

Do no harm.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I definitely shouldn't be reading this before I go to bed.
> 
> She was gone but had all three kids.
> 
> Yes, I do want some element of surprise. He will know my face.
> 
> She is sleeping downstairs tonight. That makes me sick because I know what it implies.
> 
> I came home and went to bed early. She seemed nothing but cold and mildly social. *I want to ask her what she is s mad about, I'm the one being cheated on.* [beta male behavior - which makes women run from you all the faster]
> 
> I went to go pray with her but she is downstairs, apparently in one of the girls rooms becuase she isn't on the couch and didn't leave the house. I checked the garage.
> 
> I just went into the living room and dropped to my knees and prayed there. *I'm not going to try to hunt her down so she can hear me pray.* [thinking of beta male behavior]
> 
> I'm not In a crying mood anymore. At least not right now. I'm irritated at her response. It is all but over, watching her behave this way.
> 
> The pastor is the one she sought out. Ours. She never mentioned anyone else to him.
> I know what that insinuates, too.
> 
> *Makes me hate the guy more.* We were fine 7 months ago and now we are basically in line for a divorce and *he is the only real variable* that has been added. [more beta behavior - afraid to be mad at the wife, so you're mad at the OM]
> 
> For her to tell me that she has told him before that she loves him...*he is not an innocent bystander*. [So what? HE didn't promise himself to you. SHE did. Get mad at HER. (it's the only way she'll want you back)]
> 
> Makes me *want to go down and talk to her again right now * [more beta male thought - only kicking her out for HER behavior would make a difference, but you're too afraid to do that] but I know it won't help anything. Its almost one of thosl situations where fighting is at least putting me near her. Dumb, I know. So I'm going to try to sleep now.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> Blonde, we need your wisdom here. Far is doing a great job, but you would be a great addition.


I agree with Far about throwing her a lifeline. 

Upon reading Still's post where the EA is exposed, I wanted to know if OM is M which was answered- he isn't. If he was, his W would need to be informed.

Having no experience with being a WW, I am not sure what would work? However, I don't trust the guys who preach aggressive punitive scorched earth tactics (are they still M?)

Jld had posted this in another thread and it rings true to me regarding the differences inherent in living in female skin: Cheating Wives - When the wife has the affair

I also like this one which JLD dug up. It is very like Ken Nair's perspective and rings true to me from my theological perspective and from my experience living in female skin: Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


----------



## Blonde

How did church go, Still?


----------



## farsidejunky

Checking in on you, brother.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I will keep this kind of short. I need to process and get this out of my head for a bit.

I went. I confronted him. I could tell I completely took him by surprise. In a nutshell, He is involved but not on the same level as she is...she is pursuing him. Hard to describe how it all happened. We actually spoke...firmly but clearly. He didn't know we were still together. He says he sent her information on saving the marriage, pushed to not divorce. But I also watched him walk around him calling her gorgeous. 

My wife figured out where I was going and about had an absolute fit. Didn't want me to confront him. He was a nice guy and didn't want me to affect his job.

I didn't make any waves. Didn't bring any attention to the situation. Told people there he was an old friend from college.

I do believe he wasn't as much seeking anything with her as she was him but I told him the affect he has had on our marriage.

It may sound weak but at the end, aside from him swearing no further communication and agreeing to meet with me again if I wanted, I prayed with him. I led the prayer then went to the service. He was a bit shaken but I wanted that. 

Sad thing is, I could see why she liked him. I could see why she could see her being with him. We are scarred. He seems fresh and new and good. Missionary type. My wife doesn't see that in me anymore. Whether I am or I'm not, she doesn't see it.

Needless to say, she hates me now more than she did. I have no right answers in her eyes anymore.

But she just lies. She can't get passed some things in the past either. My folks told me when I got back that they received a copy of her rental application. She was moving out regardless of today.

She said that I did it just so that if we didn't work out, she couldn't still be with him. That makes me sick. She said it wasn't because I was trying to save our marriage, that I just didn't want to see her with anyone else. 

This marriage keeps breaking down...when I think it can't get worse, it still does.

I have to step away. I can't help this situation. She is filing. I will keep my appointment this week and see where things go.

She knows I love her. I have shown her I love her. She doesn't want it right now. She accepts nothing that I do as being good.

Sad.

But I don't regret meeting the guy. If her husband would have confronted me, I might not have thought he was an abusive jerk. This whole thing may have been avoided.

She brings up how we had sex before she was divorced. She had as much to do with it as I did...but the moral lapse in judgment is my fault.

Those poor kids. Man this seem so sadly unnecessary.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

She is justifying her selfishness.

He blameshifted.

He is way more involved than he's letting on or he wouldn't have been so rattled.

Did you express your committment to her?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

It dawns on me that you are following my pattern. Confront AP 1st.

I limited exposure, then focused on my H.

Interesting.

I just hate that she is so far gone already.


----------



## Blonde

So sorry, Still.

You did a good job!

Keep your dignity. You need to be able to co-parent.

The discipline of the Lord is painful for a season.

"No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.." Heb 12:11​


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I expressed my commitment to marriage to AP and to her. 

If there was more going on, I'll never know and probably dont want to. I asked him straight away when the last time he saw my wife was. He said about 15 years ago. Maybe that was agreed upon by both ahead of time but I just don't know.

I'm tempted...as the D starts to process, to offer to "give my blessing" (for whatever that would be worth) to him having a relationship with her...promoting it, if it would sway her custody decision. Heck, I would attend the wedding if she gave me custody of my son and let us go our own way. 
I know that isn't very realistic but I will use everything I can, short of calling her flat crazy...i think she is hurt and depressed...and over me, to get custody.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Thanks, Blonde


----------



## farsidejunky

What was her response when you told her you still loved her?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

And what was her response that you were committed


----------



## Chaparral

If she leaves you and goes to another man she is committing adultery. Assuming there really was abuse in her first marriage she isnt in an adulterous relationship now. Has she discussed that with a pastor?

In any event the course she has set is that of a serial cheater and you should call her on it to her face. All she is really doing is blameshifting this on you to move on to other men.


----------



## jld

Chaparral said:


> In any event the course she has set is that of a serial cheater and you should call her on it to her face.


And this would help Still how?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> And this would help Still how?


Calling a spade a spade and not accepting blame for her choices.


----------



## jld

He can do that without saying anything to her, especially going into a divorce/shared custody situation.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

She hears me say it, or text it, and blows past it.

I hurt but i also worry about her. 

She cancelled our daughters party today, just found out, because of my "stunt" and not knowing what she would be coming home to. 
I called her on that. Asked her, via text, what she thought I'd do, bring him home tied up?
She just didn't want to go but I told her im not accepting responsibility for her canceling the party.
She texted a lot to me today, that was not mentioned until I asked about coming to it if it was still going on.


----------



## jld

I feel so sorry for the daughter. Were her friends invited, or was it just family?

The kids are paying the price.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Her and a couple of friends.

I know, that's why I was initially trying to make it past this part.

It all still seems surreal.


----------



## Duguesclin

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Heck, I would attend the wedding if she gave me custody of my son and let us go our own way.


But you know your son wants his mom and his dad.

What is best for him, you having custody or her, assuming a divorce is now inevitable. Or is it better to have a huge custody battle and you amassing mount of evidence she has been a serial cheater, the last one with a guy she saw last 15 years ago?

What is best for him and the girls?


----------



## Duguesclin

tdwal said:


> This is not over, you burst her fantasy and hopefully scared the guy off. Reality sets in now. You should expose to whoever you can. Hopefully you have killed the fantasy. She is lashing out.
> 
> I hope you told the guy that if you find further contact you will destroy him.


The focus is to find the best solution for the family. If divorce is inevitable, how does this help?

Or do you think he can win her back that way?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Divorce isn't inevitable at this point. Expose, but only to her family...not yours. Bring pressure but don't poison the well. Reality is just starting to hit her. Don't stop now. These consequences are critical to her growth.


----------



## Duguesclin

WorkingOnMe said:


> Divorce isn't inevitable at this point. Expose, but only to her family...not yours. Bring pressure but don't poison the well. Reality is just starting to hit her. Don't stop now. These consequences are critical to her growth.


The title of the thread is "I plan to go back home....". She already kicked him out once. She is done with the marriage.

Shock and awe techniques will increase the emotion and make the upcoming custody battle even more intense.

Skill had an opportunity to do things different this week-end when there was still hope. He chose to confront the other guy, and now the marriage is done.


----------



## karole

At some point, maybe she will accept some responsibility for her life choices rather than blaming everyone else. She is thinking of no one but herself now - certainly not her children. What a selfish woman she is. Hang in there Still. Get IC for yourself and your children.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Thank you for that, I am certainly trying to fight for her. She doesn't see it that way, but I am.

I honestly think at this point me having my son the majority of the time is best. Not to be selfish. 

She will have the girls, which love my son too, there is no "half" talk in our family. But it can also make for drama and chaos...as with any family.

She still has to work.
My family is already his second home.

Even when we are together all in the same house, he will often want to be where I am. She is a great mom but this is also taking a big toll.

More selfishly, I don't want the divorce, so i definitely don't want to give up half my son's life.


----------



## jld

What do you think "fighting for her" would look like to _her,_ Still?


----------



## farsidejunky

At this point I don't know if anything he does will be seen that way.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

That's where I'm at I'm afraid. Nothing I do, in her eyes, is good. Everything is manipulative in my part, in her eyes.

I hate that.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> At this point I don't know if anything he does will be seen that way.


I hear you. I think she feels totally disrespected.


----------



## Blonde

tdwal said:


> I hope you told the guy that if you find further contact you will destroy him. You probably should have because he represents as a Pastor and is involved in this. These are the charlatans God hates.


This guy was an unwitting victim, sounds like. She probably told him Still was abusive, like she told Still about the first H.

My H was unfaithful, Still, and I did something which very much resembled the 180 The 180 | AFFAIRCARE

I focused on self improvement, self confidence (exercise, college classes, new career, new hobbies, new friends, new wardrobe) and I pressed in deeper in my relationship with the Lord. I have a circle of close GF's who were with me every step of the journey but I did not do the "exposure" that is so common on TAM and I don't regret that. We live in a small town and have children in the school, etc. ISTM undignified and TMI to publicly air the dirty laundry though I am not opposed to sharing it with people who can help. Think of her daughters and any public shaming coming back to haunt them on the lips of bullies...


----------



## WorkingOnMe

The people arguing for a nice guy approach know they're wrong. They can sense the tide turning and they're going to start pouring it on. Keep it up Still. You're doing fine. Do what's best for you, your self respect and self esteem. She'll wake up in a panic, and if she doesn't, you'll be in a better position to move on.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

SHE's disrespected!


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> That's where I'm at I'm afraid. Nothing I do, in her eyes, is good. Everything is manipulative in my part, in her eyes.
> 
> I hate that.


32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.


----------



## jld

What do you think she is scared of, Blonde?


----------



## Blonde

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> That's where I'm at I'm afraid. Nothing I do, in her eyes, is good. Everything is manipulative in my part, in her eyes.
> 
> I hate that.


Ask not how to please your W but how to please *God*.

"And whatever you do, do it heartily, *as to the Lord and not to men*," Col 3:23

"For do I now persuade men, or God? Or *do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ*." Gal 1:10


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

The OM lives 1+ hours away.

She had already applied for a place to rent. She did that before Christmas. This is unravelling on her. He was her life line to a post divorced life I think. 

Again, I don't want her to hurt, but I couldn't not address what was going on.

She was afraid id get him in trouble. I didn't. I looked him in the eye when I shook his hand and he gave me his word there would be no further contact.

And oddly enough, I still felt a little bad I had taken something "good" in her life, away. How crazy is that??? That realization makes me feel a little crazy itself.

If I gave her total control to show her that I loved her and didn't want her to hurt, she'd take it and not worry about whether I hurt or not.

That is just where she is right now.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Thanks, Blonde.


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> What do you think she is scared of, Blonde?


She is scared that she has lost the chance to have a Godly man.

It is a quote from the 180. My H never seemed "scared". ****y, arrogant, projecting while in the midst of it. Then before I ever knew about the affair- he was on his best behavior for 3-4 months- he said he was so tormented by the guilt that he had ended it.


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> She is scared that she has lost the chance to have a Godly man.
> 
> It is a quote from the 180. My H never seemed "scared". ****y, arrogant, projecting while in the midst of it. Then before I ever knew about the affair- he was on his best behavior for 3-4 months- he said he was so tormented by the guilt that he had ended it.


I wanted Still to be that godly man she is craving. I was trying to coach him into that. Dug was, too. I wanted Still to meet those emotional needs, not her seeking another man for that.

I think Still should have exposed to that man's boss. Now he made a deal, and if he has any honor, he has to uphold it. 

I don't think that guy is a victim. Like Dug said, he was having a flirt with a pretty woman from what, high school or college? He felt guilty and tried to stop it a few times. But his ego liked the stroking.

Those ministers are surely trained to resist temptations from women. That man was undoubtedly struggling inside himself. Now he is still alone in his struggle. His boss could have counseled him. He has probably struggled with temptation himself.

And then you have Still's wife, given up on her marriage and desperately seeking a man she feels she can trust, to bring some stability to a life she knows all too well is internally unstable.

A counselor told Still she has battered spouse syndrome from her first husband. There is something wrong there mentally. And we have some folks here that think that she is capable of seeing everything as clearly as someone who does not have that syndrome.

I wish you would get professional counseling, Still. We are not trained counselors. To do the best for your kids, yourself, and even your wife moving forward, you would do well to seek _professional_ advice.


----------



## SadSamIAm

I don't think this has anything to do with the OM. If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. It was only a matter of time until she sought out someone new.


----------



## Chaparral

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> The OM lives 1+ hours away.
> 
> She had already applied for a place to rent. She did that before Christmas. This is unravelling on her. He was her life line to a post divorced life I think.
> 
> Again, I don't want her to hurt, but I couldn't not address what was going on.
> 
> She was afraid id get him in trouble. I didn't. I looked him in the eye when I shook his hand and he gave me his word there would be no further contact.
> 
> And oddly enough, I still felt a little bad I had taken something "good" in her life, away. How crazy is that??? That realization makes me feel a little crazy itself.
> 
> If I gave her total control to show her that I loved her and didn't want her to hurt, she'd take it and not worry about whether I hurt or not.
> 
> That is just where she is right now.


You cant depend on him telling you the truth or keeping his word. From what you have posted she has been in a EA for a long time. Since she has lied so much added to her actions I would be shocked if they haven't seen each other. You should have shown him the cheaterville page.

Be sure to make it clear her reputation is going to hell when it people find out all about her boyfriend that's waiting in the wings.

Did you ask him for proof he was telling her to work on her marriage? Did you tell her he said that? Did you ask him about his telling her she was beautiful and how he wanted to hug her neck. You should have pointed out these discrepancies. You still sound toooooo nice.

Let her walk and let her know you're not letting her take your son with her and you will fight for custody. The only thing you can do now is be strong, serious but kind. Do not waver.

If she wants to put another cheating episode, divorce, and another broken family under her belt, tell her to put that in her prayers to God and see how he likes that.

I wouldn't expose quite yet but I would definitely let her know everyone you can think of will eventually know the whole story. This strategy has to be finessed not railroaded.


----------



## karole

I don't know how she could see the OM as a Godly man. He's flirting with a married woman and who knows what else. I also don't see how she claims to be a Godly woman this is 2 affairs that we know of she's had. Maybe different people have different definitions of "Godly."


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, I still think you have a good chance of saving this if you cut the nice guy crap and focus on being the good man you should be.

Have you read mmslp yet?

There is a reason she has turned to another man and it has nothing to do with what she says it is.

Ask your attorney if you can force a mental evaluation.

Good luck and prayers


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> I wanted Still to be that godly man she is craving. I was trying to coach him into that. Dug was, too. I wanted Still to meet those emotional needs, not her seeking another man for that.


God will use this to make Still into a Godly man.

I know you and Dug are disappointed about the confrontation but I think it is a form of transparency. It is better for this to be out in the light.

Even though Mrs Still is a turmoil of emotions/anger/etc... ultimately it will have a very positive impact on her to watch Still handle this in a Godly manner (whether or not their M survives it)

Still, David screwed up and yet he is known as a man after God's own heart. You can be like that- for God, for your son.


----------



## Chaparral

karole said:


> I don't know how she could see the OM as a Godly man. He's flirting with a married woman and who knows what else. I also don't see how she claims to be a Godly woman this is 2 affairs that we know of she's had. Maybe different people have different definitions of "Godly."


Exactly, she's lost respect for him and like a tree monkey she was hanging on oe branch and swinging to the next.

The question is why she lost respect. I suspect nice guy syndrome, money and progressive over domestication.

There was an article somewhere in the last few days that claimed the more housework a husband does the more likely he is to be cheated on. Threads here seem to bolster that study. Biology trumps modern theory unfortunately.


----------



## Duguesclin

Blonde said:


> God will use this to make Still into a Godly man.
> 
> I know you and Dug are disappointed about the confrontation but I think it is a form of transparency. It is better for this to be out in the light.
> 
> Even though Mrs Still is a turmoil of emotions/anger/etc... ultimately it will have a very positive impact on her to watch Still handle this in a Godly manner (whether or not their M survives it)
> 
> Still, David screwed up and yet he is known as a man after God's own heart. You can be like that- for God, for your son.


The confrontation is not the issue. It is the focus on it that is the problem.

His marriage has been going down hill for month. To save it he had to make a drastic change. He did not. How can you expect a different result with the same attitude?


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> God will use this to make Still into a Godly man.
> 
> I know you and Dug are disappointed about the confrontation but I think it is a form of transparency. It is better for this to be out in the light.
> 
> Even though Mrs Still is a turmoil of emotions/anger/etc... ultimately it will have a very positive impact on her to watch Still handle this in a Godly manner (whether or not their M survives it)
> 
> Still, David screwed up and yet he is known as a man after God's own heart. You can be like that- for God, for your son.


We think it could have been handled differently. He could have been working diligently on meeting her needs, humbling himself by not asking for sex, etc. He could have been winning her back, a la Fireproof.

If her needs are not met, she will just look for men to fill them. At least she is looking for somewhat safe men. Some women look for partiers or thrill seekers. His son will be exposed to whatever men come into her life now.

And we certainly are not against transparency! But I definitely think he should have gone through the youth minister's boss. There would be accountability that way.

Still, I would urge you to read that link Blonde posted about Reconciling with a wife with a hardened heart. Here, maybe I will link it again for you.

Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


----------



## Chaparral

Her actions at this point mean nothing. Give it time. There is no telling what will happen.

The most erroneous line we've seen here is "I was going to come back to you until you exposed to everyone.". Then everything changes as real life steps in and the affair partner heads for the hills. The more truthful line is " I've moved on and can't trust you anymore.".


----------



## jld

Remember, she tried to reach out to him? But he half-listened, just wanted to talk about himself. That is in the first few pages of this thread. At some point, she gave up. And then she started seeking another man. She was scared to move on by herself.

Transparency, leadership, meeting her emotional needs, all this could have brought us to a different conversation today. 

And yet, maybe as Blonde says, Still can still work on making himself into "a man after God's own heart."


----------



## Blonde

Chaparral said:


> There was an article somewhere in the last few days that claimed the more housework a husband does the more likely he is to be cheated on. Threads here seem to bolster that study. Biology trumps modern theory unfortunately.




This look at sexual frequency among younger couples in equal marriages refutes recent claims that when a man share the housework equally, it is bad for the couple’s sex life.


Also IME I feel more respected and the sex is better (more mutual like the chores) since H began helping out more and I'm not in the "younger couple" demographic studied in the above article

Even your pal Kay does his fair share of domestic chores such as vacuuming MAN CLEAN. WOMAN LIKE. SEX NOW. | Married Man Sex Life


----------



## Chaparral

Duguesclin said:


> The confrontation is not the issue. It is the focus on it that is the problem.
> 
> His marriage has been going down hill for month. To save it he had to make a drastic change. He did not. How can you expect a different result with the same attitude?


You're totally discounting her boyfriend and the fact she has already rented a new appartment. The reason she had started acting nicer was because she knew she was going to pull the rug out from under him. Did she tell him about the apt.?

He did the only thing he could, he just should have been stronger doing it and brought the om's pastor into it.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> My wife figured out where I was going and about had an absolute fit.
> 
> Needless to say, she hates me now more than she did. I have no right answers in her eyes anymore.
> 
> But she just lies. She can't get passed some things in the past either.
> 
> She said that I did it just so that if we didn't work out, she couldn't still be with him. That makes me sick. She said it wasn't because I was trying to save our marriage, that I just didn't want to see her with anyone else.


Still, EVERY cheating woman says this when she is exposed. EVERY ONE. Every one says:
Now, I'll NEVER get back with you
I was considering staying with you, but now you've ruined everything.
Now I'll take everything.
Everyone thinks you're crazy. 
I hate you!


Do you understand? Your marriage can survive your wife's anger. Your marriage can't survive another man. Just because she spews venom at you doesn't mean she really hates you or won't come back to the marriage once her fantasy bubble has burst.

You did the right thing.


----------



## Blonde

And I will add this Marriage Help Program For Couples Several of the presenters on our weekend had recovered from full on adultery

and this Christianbook.com: Discovering the Mind of a Woman: Ken Nair Nair suggests giving the book to one's wife and asking her to read it with a highlighter in hand to mark passages which she identifies with and wants you to especially note.


----------



## Chaparral

Blonde said:


> This look at sexual frequency among younger couples in equal marriages refutes recent claims that when a man share the housework equally, it is bad for the couple’s sex life.
> 
> 
> Also IME I feel more respected and the sex is better (more mutual like the chores) since H began helping out more and I'm not in the "younger couple" demographic studied in the above article
> 
> Even your pal Kay does his fair share of domestic chores such as vacuuming MAN CLEAN. WOMAN LIKE. SEX NOW. | Married Man Sex Life


It looks like you're arguing against something I didn't say. I did not say men should not do any housework.

We have and have had many stay at home dads and other men that do most of the cooking and cleaning. Its a very common refrain here and they can't understand how they lost their wives respect.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> That's where I'm at I'm afraid. Nothing I do, in her eyes, is good. Everything is manipulative in my part, in her eyes.
> 
> I hate that.


Still, this is all within 6-12 hours of you blowing up her fantasy. 

You don't know ANYTHING right now. Except that she feels humiliated and STILL does not want to own up to her OWN bad choices, and thus can't do anything else but blame YOU.

This is temporary. Who knows how this will all end up? If you tell her folks or siblings why it's all going down, that she got carried away with a fantasy romance and you ended it to try to save your marriage, she is going to have to make a choice. Try to start being Godly or choose a path to Hell. Hopefully, they will help her see that YOU are not the devil here, and she has a path home.

But right now, you know nothing other than that she's reeling from being 'discovered' and scrambling to convince herself (and God) that it was all nothing. 

Just breathe. Calm down. Remain strong. Let her know she has a path home - IF she stops seeing other men while she's married. Make NO DECISIONS right now. DO NOT MOVE OUT. What you need now is time. So do nothing, ok? Maybe tell her family what's going on so they can help her. 

*And btw, HOW did she find out you went there?*


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> I hear you. I think she feels totally disrespected.


:rofl:

For [email protected]!

Being CAUGHT CHEATING?!


----------



## turnera

Duguesclin said:


> The confrontation is not the issue. It is the focus on it that is the problem.
> 
> His marriage has been going down hill for month. To save it he had to make a drastic change. He did not. How can you expect a different result with the same attitude?


He has made a TON of drastic changes. What has SHE done?
Why is HE the bad guy here, Dug?


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> We think it could have been handled differently.


You and Dug speaking privately offline, jld?


----------



## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> That's where I'm at I'm afraid. Nothing I do, in her eyes, is good. Everything is manipulative in my part, in her eyes.
> 
> I hate that.


No everything is manipulation on her part. Your correct, nothing you do is good to her. If you don't fight for her, you don't care, if you do fight you are obsessed with her etc etc. Everything you do will be countered because you have to be the bad guy to fit the story in her head right now.


----------



## jld

Sure. Go ahead and laugh at her. She is a total emotional mess. Feels like she has no future, no hope. Gave up on the marriage months ago.

I think the only way she will come back to Still is if he has a dramatic character change. Maybe if she senses the same qualities in him that he himself sensed in the youth minister, she will be persuaded to give him another chance.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Sure. Go ahead and laugh at her. She is a total emotional mess. Feels like she has no future, no hope. Gave up on the marriage months ago.
> 
> I think the only way she will come back to Still is if he has a dramatic character change. Maybe if she senses the same qualities in him that he himself sensed in the youth minister, she will be persuaded to give him another chance.


Who's laughing at her? We are trying to clear the CHEATING FOG out of her brain so she can see she has a steady, loving husband at home. And that will never happen as long as she thinks ANOTHER MAN will scoop her up.


----------



## Duguesclin

turnera said:


> He has made a TON of drastic changes. What has SHE done?
> Why is HE the bad guy here, Dug?


I do not care who is good and who is bad. There is, no, was a marriage to save. I expected him to be the leader. To be the solution. Instead he chose to remain one of the problems.

His lack of leadership has not helped his wife. She is trying to get her needs met. She is trying to get help and she needs a life line. He just refused to extend it to her and instead focused on outing this other guy. Again, I am not arguing he should not have done it, I am arguing there were other more important tasks to do that he failed to start, like truly connecting with his wife.

It is like it is lunch time, the office building is going up in flames, and I choose to go for lunch because I am very hungry. But around me people are dying.


----------



## jld

tdwal said:


> That's why he has been told to read MMSLP and No more Mr Nice Guy, to dramatically change his character.


NMMNG is probably a good start. The other one is more about physical attraction, right? I think she is looking for something deeper than that.

This gal is looking for emotional safety. She seeks that in religion. She is too weak to get it inside herself. And she did not feel it in her husband. 

She was hoping to get it from this other man. Even knowing it was wrong. Both of them knowing it was wrong.

I think he had questionable motives, especially as a man of the cloth. I think mentally and emotionally she is just starving for something pure. She does not feel strong enough inside herself to get it internally, so she looks for it externally.


----------



## karole

I don't understand JLD & Dug blaming everything on Still. I think Still's wife needs to ma ke a few changes herself she seems to have plenty of character flaws.


----------



## turnera

Thing is, Dug, you and jld are like innocents in New York City. In YOUR universe, everything works right when you just believe. In the world of uneducated, or dysfunctional, or unloved people, we do the best we can with the limited knowledge and experience we have. Was he unattentive a year ago? Sure. Like 90% of men out there who don't know any better, who marry just to have a cushy life with a woman they love who they expect to treat them like their mother did. Most people don't read - or intuitively understand the tenets of - His Needs Her Needs and how to keep a marriage healthy. 

But guess what? He's learned a LOT since coming her and has TRIED to show her there's a way home. But guess what else? She is NOW in the affair fog and women in affair fog see ONLY the man they have manufactured to 'rescue' them. It's psychology. And for all y'all's understanding, you both seem to miss a lot of the basic psychological underpinnings of what makes people do what they do. 

And one of the basic things is that once a woman has convinced herself she needs a new man, she reviles her old man and his 'just being nice' to her won't make her feel sudden love for her husband.

Don't believe it, IDC. But maybe try to trust that those of us who have been here for YEARS - decades, some of us - DO know that you can't nice a cheating woman back as long as the OM is still in the picture.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Who's laughing at her? We are trying to clear the CHEATING FOG out of her brain so she can see she has a steady, loving husband at home. And that will never happen as long as she thinks ANOTHER MAN will scoop her up.


I don't think adults will allow themselves to feel kept hostage. I think the events of the last few days put the nails in the coffin of their marriage. She does not trust him. 

Even if she were to come back temporarily for financial reasons, and I doubt even that, her heart left long ago. And her heart is what he really wants. 

Every time he half-listened, every time he put himself first. Every time she felt unimportant, this already fragile woman (the counselor said she had battered spouse syndrome, remember?) lost trust. Eventually it was all gone, and she sought another man for sustenance.

Turnera, her problems are deeper than we probably realize. I think she needs professional counsel. He could use some, too. He is going to have to coparent, and his son is going to be exposed to other men. He and she both need counseling to manage all this as safely as possible.


----------



## jld

We were counting on Still because we think of the two of them, he is the far more capable one.

She has some serious problems, tdwal. There is no doubt. I think her issues are way deeper than what MNSLP can address.

Many of you seem to think she can hold up 50% of this marriage. I don't think so. Or not right now, anyway. I think the only hope was for Still to have carried her until she was stronger.


----------



## Nucking Futs

turnera said:


> You and Dug speaking privately offline, jld?


I would hope so, they are married. 

Dug, you're despair is misplaced. You've got no experience with this so you're seeing all your plans go crashing down. If Still had only followed your advice he'd still be on the track you imagine to recover his marriage. But you should pay attention to all the other posters, the ones that have been arguing with you all this time. You're whining that it's all over, everyone else is satisfied that a first, small step has been taken. 

What happened today is no worse for the marriage than what happened yesterday. The positive signs you thought you were seeing was her mollifying him until she could get into her new apartment. She was still lying to him. Let that sink in. All the positive signs you saw were her deliberately deceiving him. What happened today is no surprise for anyone experienced in infidelity. Pay attention to that turnera is posting, she's literally predicting things Stills WW will say. Write them down or something so you won't over react when she says them. That goes for you too, Still.

So Dug and jld, here's a suggestion for you. Relax. This is not the end of the world, and it's not necessarily the end of this marriage. It may be the end of the deception, maybe not, that remains to be seen. But this is not a bad thing. Sit back, relax, pay attention to what's happening to Still. Use this as a learning experience to see exactly where you were going wrong in advising Still, and maybe you can tweak your program a little bit to incorporate some the experience in play in this thread.


----------



## jld

I totally believe it is easier to win a woman back who has no other real options, Turnera. But I don't think Still's wife is in that category.

She is pretty; she is fairly young (35 or so?); she has a job as a nurse. Otoh, she will be divorced twice now, and I am not sure how that will fly in the religious world. 

You seem to see her as a woman having fun on the side while wanting the financial support of her hubby. I don't think she is like that. 

I think she is, as Dug said, lost inside. She is desperately looking for something, or someone, to hold onto. Life has proven itself very unsafe to her. She is looking for shelter, even if in unhealthy ways.


----------



## Duguesclin

I hope you are right NF. I just do not see it.

Using a butcher knife for a heart surgery is not going to save the patient. What you and Turnera are promoting may work for a party girl having fun. This woman is deeply troubled and beating on the other guy and controlling who she texts is not going to get Still anywhere.

What does she have to lose?


----------



## honcho

Duguesclin said:


> I hope you are right NF. I just do not see it.
> 
> Using a butcher knife for a heart surgery is not going to save the patient. What you and Turnera are promoting may work for a party girl having fun. This woman is deeply troubled and beating on the other guy and controlling who she texts is not going to get Still anywhere.
> 
> What does she have to lose?


You don't see it because you have never lived this nightmare.


----------



## jld

Thank God. _(crosses herself)_


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

It's been a long night.
She left and took the kids with her. I thought they were out doing something. I finally asked when they'd be home and didn't hear back. 
Finally she said she'd bring my son (and girls) back tomorrow. But she didn't tell me where they were, just that they were having a great time.
I didn't handle it well. Just told her it wasn't acceptable to keep my son out all night, me not knowing where and on spur of the moment. I was beginning to imagine pretty crazy things.
After a bit of me texting and mainly waiting for a response, I told her I was going to start calling family. I was going to make it a little more serious and call authorities but I'm glad I didn't.

She ended up saying they were at her parents. I said "why didn't you just tell me that? That is always a different subject, I'm fine with that although still irritated with her apparently not going to tell me unless I made a stink.

I read the letter about reconciliation with a hardened-hearted wife. That described her pretty much to a T.

I sent one more text based on what I read in that artice and am now calling it a night.

Thank you for all the advice. I read every bit.


----------



## As'laDain

.


----------



## jld

From that article, Reconciling With a Hardened Wife: 

_ Sadly, most husbands have few memories of “hurting” their wives. But let all such men consider –* if a woman does something as extreme as leave her mate, claiming she can no longer handle the emotional pain, isn’t it likely she is, in fact, in pain? (If emotional feelings could bleed, a man would see a trail of blood following his wife as she leaves him.) *The truth is that a hardened woman only got that way because her feelings got hurt over and over. 

Herein lies the problem – most women believe that they have communicated their hurt to their husbands, but most husbands only have memories of their wife’s bad attitudes. *All those times a wife thought she was simply expressing the cry of an injured heart, her husband only perceived hostility, coldness, or hatred.* She felt like she was begging for tenderness and sensitivity, and he backed away because he thought he was being attacked. 

*My experience is that most women leave their husbands, because they entered marriage with expectations of feeling cherished and secure, and their husbands unwittingly have sent the message that they are not. *Hence, those women end up feeling defrauded, then often bitter and hardened.

The man who hopes to reconcile with a wounded wife must first realize that for her to return to him will require that she trust and forgive him. Such a wife may be consumed by bitterness, *but rather than concentrate on what his wife is doing wrong, it is better that an abandoned husband think about what he must do facilitate the softening of her heart to help her forgive and trust him.*_

Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


----------



## As'laDain

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> It's been a long night.
> She left and took the kids with her. I thought they were out doing something. I finally asked when they'd be home and didn't hear back.
> Finally she said she'd bring my son (and girls) back tomorrow. But she didn't tell me where they were, just that they were having a great time.
> I didn't handle it well. Just told her it wasn't acceptable to keep my son out all night, me not knowing where and on spur of the moment. I was beginning to imagine pretty crazy things.
> After a bit of me texting and mainly waiting for a response, I told her I was going to start calling family. I was going to make it a little more serious and call authorities but I'm glad I didn't.
> 
> She ended up saying they were at her parents. I said "why didn't you just tell me that? That is always a different subject, I'm fine with that although still irritated with her apparently not going to tell me unless I made a stink.
> 
> I read the letter about reconciliation with a hardened-hearted wife. That described her pretty much to a T.
> 
> I sent one more text based on what I read in that artice and am now calling it a night.
> 
> Thank you for all the advice. I read every bit.


you making a stink was you providing a consequence that she wouldnt like, and a clear way to avoid the consequence. and it worked. 

do that with all bad behavior. it works better than arguing and trying to squeeze water from a rock.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> From that article, Reconciling With a Hardened Wife:
> 
> _ Sadly, most husbands have few memories of “hurting” their wives. But let all such men consider –* if a woman does something as extreme as leave her mate, claiming she can no longer handle the emotional pain, isn’t it likely she is, in fact, in pain? (If emotional feelings could bleed, a man would see a trail of blood following his wife as she leaves him.) *The truth is that a hardened woman only got that way because her feelings got hurt over and over.
> 
> Herein lies the problem – most women believe that they have communicated their hurt to their husbands, but most husbands only have memories of their wife’s bad attitudes. *All those times a wife thought she was simply expressing the cry of an injured heart, her husband only perceived hostility, coldness, or hatred.* She felt like she was begging for tenderness and sensitivity, and he backed away because he thought he was being attacked.
> 
> *My experience is that most women leave their husbands, because they entered marriage with expectations of feeling cherished and secure, and their husbands unwittingly have sent the message that they are not. *Hence, those women end up feeling defrauded, then often bitter and hardened.
> 
> The man who hopes to reconcile with a wounded wife must first realize that for her to return to him will require that she trust and forgive him. Such a wife may be consumed by bitterness, *but rather than concentrate on what his wife is doing wrong, it is better that an abandoned husband think about what he must do facilitate the softening of her heart to help her forgive and trust him.*_
> 
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife



what if the woman lies every time she opens her mouth? what if its only half of the time? do you believe half of what she says? how do you tell when she is honest?

you have to get her speaking the truth before you can listen. otherwise, just watch actions and ignore the words.


----------



## Duguesclin

As'laDain said:


> what if the woman lies every time she opens her mouth? what if its only half of the time? do you believe half of what she says? how do you tell when she is honest?
> 
> you have to get her speaking the truth before you can listen. otherwise, just watch actions and ignore the words.


How will you decide you know she is telling the truth?

My guess it will take a long time. Skill does not have that time if he has any hope of saving his marriage. But, more important, what is the best option for his family, a lengthy custody battle or some real compromise for the sake of his family?


----------



## As'laDain

Duguesclin said:


> How will you decide you know she is telling the truth?
> 
> My guess it will take a long time. Skill does not have that time if he has any hope of saving his marriage. But, more important, what is the best option for his family, a lengthy custody battle or some real compromise for the sake of his family?


some compromise would be great. but first, he needs to speak the language she is speaking. the actions are truth. so he needs to speak through actions. 

then maybe she will start being honest with her words. she does not believe his at the moment, so he needs to stop speaking with them.


----------



## honcho

Duguesclin said:


> How will you decide you know she is telling the truth?
> 
> My guess it will take a long time. Skill does not have that time if he has any hope of saving his marriage. But, more important, what is the best option for his family, a lengthy custody battle or some real compromise for the sake of his family?


Trying to repair anything based on lies is pointless, what are you fixing? This is one of the problems as he has heard so many different versions now. Which might be a problem and which is just blame deflection. There most likely wont be any real custody battle as almost each and every state defaults to 50/50 in todays day and age. 

Unless she completely abandons the kids or he can prove abuse to the children its a near unwinnable battle to gain any more than 50/50. This is why he needs to speak to the lawyer which he has set up because for good or bad being a better parent is meaningless in the world of courts and divorce. He needs to know and understand what happens if it goes to divorce.


----------



## jld

Still, on that same website is an article specifically for husbands whose wives have had affairs. I am having trouble linking it, so I will just copy an excerpt here:

_It is never a man's fault if his wife is unfaithful. He is never to blame for her choices to sin. However, he must keep in mind that it may have been his neglect that starved her for security and made her vulnerable to adultery. When a woman decides to leave her husband, she is escaping from pain. She was dedicated to the marriage and hung in there for a long time before she felt she could bear no more. She had been looking to her husband for value and significance, but came away feeling neglected and worthless. The vast majority of the time a woman wasn't swept off her feet by a guy more handsome than her husband. She was starving for worth or security and welcomed it from a guy who made her feel significant, valuable, or protected.

A woman in an affair is not the same as a wife who just wants to escape the pain of being near her husband. Here are some unique aspects of such a case:

> A woman in an affair is often there because she was left vulnerable by her husband’s neglect of her heart. This does not justify her actions, but understanding this will help a husband know how to respond in humility.

> She may have a defiled conscience, and will feel extremely guilty if caught. Exposure of her sin can sometimes bring proper humility to a woman, which will aim her back to her husband’s open arms. Maybe not.

> She may have a defiled conscience, but justifies herself because of her husband’s neglect. Although it would be natural for a husband to be angry with his adulterous wife, she will still feel he owes her for his past neglect, so will see any statements critical of her as unwarranted.

> She has created an emotional and physical bond with someone other than her husband, so no longer thinks clearly. Her judgments are influenced by her passion and hormones. She might actually think of marrying the one she has an affair with, even though he has already shown he has no character and cannot be trusted. Why would a rational person be interested in someone who would violate his wedding vows? Hormones cloud our thinking and make us irrational. A husband should relate with her in all graciousness, so she will consider restoration when her lover and she break up. She must know her husband’s door is open.

The key thing for a man in your position to remember is that God modeled extreme graciousness in His dealings with unfaithful Israel. To illustrate his mercy to Israel, He told the prophet Hosea to marry a loose woman. When she left him and had an affair, God told Hosea to help his wife’s lover financially support her. God's words to Hosea are not commands to every husband. However, they do reflect a heart of tender care.

I recommend that you write a letter of reconciliation to an adulterous wife just as you might had she remained faithful._


----------



## jld

foolscotton3 said:


> Should have talked to his boss.


:iagree:


----------



## Chaparral

Duguesclin said:


> I hope you are right NF. I just do not see it.
> 
> Using a butcher knife for a heart surgery is not going to save the patient. What you and Turnera are promoting may work for a party girl having fun. This woman is deeply troubled and beating on the other guy and controlling who she texts is not going to get Still anywhere.
> 
> What does she have to lose?


At this point, she is probably just another serial cheater. The problem with that is that there is nothing you can do. You keep trying to blame Stil for things he has done in the past. His past in no way compares to her cheating behavior and its not even close. Husbands and children are just obstacles to her. At this point I'm not sure she will try very hard for her sons custody.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm going to take a break from TAM for a while. I really appreciate everything from everyone. Having never been in this position, I can see good advice from different sides of the aisle which makes it hard to have a steady and clear plan. 
It is also harder when I keep finding things out here recently.

Life feels unreal right now.

She isn't a bad woman. I love her. She hurts. I have to be a man and protect my marriage from others. I want to be a Godly man and show love and patience. I can't take back what has brought us here.

I have to focus on keeping my business together so I can provide for my son. 
I have to focus on keeping my son safe and healthy and the girls as well, as much as I can for them.
I do focus on God, listen and read to sermons and music.
I pray. My prayers are honest.

I can see the family that I love but I can't reach them.

Please continue to pray for strength and wisdom for me and a healing hand on my wife's heart for things I have done that I didn't understand and for everything that had been done before she ever came back into my life.

I can't live in guilt. I've been doing that and all it has done has enabled her to continue with an EA while I refuse to see it while accepting blame for everything.
I can live with respect and compassion and patience for her.
That is why I need prayer for strength and wisdom.

Thank you all again for all of your help.
I will check in again on here at some point. For now, reading the posts...all of which are well intended...some make me sick to my stomach when I realize that maybe I could have somehow saved this if maybe somehow I would have done things just differently enough.
My heart breaks at the thought of my family going into dysfunction, but it is. That is where we are at.

Anything can happen.
Better days are ahead.
Pray for my wife. I do love that woman. I hate that she hurts but I hurt that she lies.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

You can still talk to his boss quietly. That needs to happen for the church sake, not for retribution.

Have you seen the movie Fireproof?


----------



## turnera

Nucking Futs said:


> I would hope so, they are married.




Makes a lot of sense now...


----------



## happy as a clam

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I'm going to take a break from TAM for a while...
> 
> Having never been in this position, I can see good advice from different sides of the aisle which makes it hard to have a steady and clear plan.
> 
> For now, reading the posts...all of which are well intended...some make me sick to my stomach when I realize that *maybe I could have somehow saved this if maybe somehow I would have done things just differently enough.*


Still, hang in there. I understand your needing a break -- you've gotten a lot of completely OPPOSING advice on this thread, which is enough to cause anyone's head to swirl. Honestly, I've never seen a thread quite like yours where all sides jumped in relentlessly, and one side in particular was really pushing you to accept all the blame for your wife's cheating. While different viewpoints should always be considered, your thread seemed to fall prey to some serious thread-jacking to promote certain "agendas." 

But PLEASE don't torture yourself by thinking you could have saved your marriage OVER THE WEEKEND -- as some posters here suggested -- if only you had cow-towed to her, accepted all the blame, kissed her a$$, and every other weakling approach mentioned by some. "Listening" and "leadership" cannot salvage a marriage in 48 hours.

Your wife had been lying to you since the summer, had already applied for new housing, had already filled out divorce papers, had ALREADY given her heart to OM, etc. There is *absolutely NOTHING you could have done during this past weekend* that would have changed a d*mn thing. For others to suggest that you blew it this weekend and now your marriage is doomed -- well that's just completely irresponsible, IMHO.

Please don't believe for a moment the "if only's" that have been planted and are now running through your head. Frankly, I think you've been done a huge disservice by much of the advice that was thrown at you. I hope you will stick around and post from time to time.

Praying for you and your family.


----------



## eheigl

tdwal said:


> Your going to leave now just as the most difficult parts are emerging. You seem to be doing everything you can to avoid the issue. When you need the help the most your going to withdraw into a cocoon.
> 
> I wish you luck.


Erm, give him a break, will ya? Thanks.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> You seem to see her as a woman having fun on the side while wanting the financial support of her hubby. I don't think she is like that.
> 
> I think she is, as Dug said, lost inside. She is desperately looking for something, or someone, to hold onto. Life has proven itself very unsafe to her. She is looking for shelter, even if in unhealthy ways.


As usual, jld, you are completely wrong in assuming you know my thinking. 

I see her as a woman who is used to USING men to chart her course in life. And then blaming everything and everyone but herself when it goes wrong. She was perfectly happy to be married to still...until someone ELSE caught her eye. Then he was the devil reborn, just like the LAST husband she cheated on. 

She has followed the cheating woman's script to a T. She's no different from any other female cheater we've seen here, except that she had the bright idea to throw the God card in, which is why you fell for her hook, line, and sinker.

She purposely lied, purposely kicked him out - that is NOT the sign of a weak, misunderstood woman, purposely withheld signing for a new apartment, while 'appearing' to be weak and tearful...until he exposed to the OM. And THEN she became furious.

It's not ME who's misreading here.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I'm going to take a break from TAM for a while. I really appreciate everything from everyone. Having never been in this position, I can see good advice from different sides of the aisle which makes it hard to have a steady and clear plan.
> It is also harder when I keep finding things out here recently.
> 
> Life feels unreal right now.
> 
> She isn't a bad woman. I love her. She hurts. I have to be a man and protect my marriage from others. I want to be a Godly man and show love and patience. I can't take back what has brought us here.
> 
> I have to focus on keeping my business together so I can provide for my son.
> I have to focus on keeping my son safe and healthy and the girls as well, as much as I can for them.
> I do focus on God, listen and read to sermons and music.
> I pray. My prayers are honest.
> 
> I can see the family that I love but I can't reach them.
> 
> Please continue to pray for strength and wisdom for me and a healing hand on my wife's heart for things I have done that I didn't understand and for everything that had been done before she ever came back into my life.
> 
> *I can't live in guilt. I've been doing that and all it has done has enabled her to continue with an EA while I refuse to see it while accepting blame for everything.
> I can live with respect and compassion and patience for her.
> That is why I need prayer for strength and wisdom*.
> 
> Thank you all again for all of your help.
> I will check in again on here at some point. For now, reading the posts...all of which are well intended...some make me sick to my stomach when I realize that maybe I could have somehow saved this if maybe somehow I would have done things just differently enough.
> My heart breaks at the thought of my family going into dysfunction, but it is. That is where we are at.
> 
> Anything can happen.
> Better days are ahead.
> Pray for my wife. I do love that woman. I hate that she hurts but I hurt that she lies.


Yes, you need a clear head, so I applaud you stepping back from TAM. These swirling arguments are not helpful. What I bolded above is exactly the balance you need to progress. Maintaining compassion while at the same time not accepting ALL the blame. I am glad you are focusing on God, your kids and your business. Wise choices. Protect your heart in Christ. THAT is where you will find your peace and strength. Praying the best for you.

Oh and Happy is right... You did not blow it this weekend. These things take time. Great post Happy. God is ALL powerful, He is working. Ignore all shame lobbed in your direction. Take great care. My best, BL


----------



## Chaparral

Go to dadsdivorce.com, it's a father friendly legal advice site.

You should also read up at chumplady.com

Prayers for you your son and family


----------



## karole

Still, you and your family will be in my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I'm going to take a break from TAM for a while. I really appreciate everything from everyone. Having never been in this position, I can see good advice from different sides of the aisle which makes it hard to have a steady and clear plan.
> It is also harder when I keep finding things out here recently.


I'm sorry if I've contributed to your confusion, but I felt it necessary to counter the damaging information you were receiving from two married people who, through their own admission, have a uniquely tight marriage, not one that has experienced what you're going through, and who are relatively new posters here (i.e. haven't seen what happens statistically in marriages coping with infidelity). And because, as you said, you keep finding things out, as we knew you would. Because that's what cheaters do. Hide things.

Anyway, good luck. I hope you find your vision.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Nucking Futs said:


> I would hope so, they are married.
> 
> Dug, you're despair is misplaced. You've got no experience with this so you're seeing all your plans go crashing down. If Still had only followed your advice he'd still be on the track you imagine to recover his marriage. But you should pay attention to all the other posters, the ones that have been arguing with you all this time. You're whining that it's all over, everyone else is satisfied that a first, small step has been taken.
> 
> What happened today is no worse for the marriage than what happened yesterday. The positive signs you thought you were seeing was her mollifying him until she could get into her new apartment. She was still lying to him. Let that sink in. All the positive signs you saw were her deliberately deceiving him. What happened today is no surprise for anyone experienced in infidelity. Pay attention to that turnera is posting, she's literally predicting things Stills WW will say. Write them down or something so you won't over react when she says them. That goes for you too, Still.
> 
> So Dug and jld, here's a suggestion for you. Relax. This is not the end of the world, and it's not necessarily the end of this marriage. It may be the end of the deception, maybe not, that remains to be seen. But this is not a bad thing. Sit back, relax, pay attention to what's happening to Still. Use this as a learning experience to see exactly where you were going wrong in advising Still, and maybe you can tweak your program a little bit to incorporate some the experience in play in this thread.


Still, I can understand how you're feeling right now. Like I said to Dug in the quote above, this stuff was a surprise to three people on this thread: you, jld, and Dug. Three people with no experience with infidelity were surprised by this weekend, the rest of us were not. The despair you feel is born of that inexperience.

Is your marriage over? Probably. I'm not Willy Wonka, I'm not going to sugar coat it for you. The odds of you recovering this marriage are not good. She was far gone before you moved back in, and the positive signs you've been seeing were lies all along. That doesn't mean there is no chance, but it does mean that you need to shift your focus away from saving the marriage to saving yourself.

You need to get lawyered up asap. You desperately need legal help to get a custody order preventing her from taking your son. You need to make sure she can't move him out of his school, his life is already being very disrupted, he doesn't need that on top of it. You need a judges signature on a piece of paper that says when you get him and when she gets him. Until you have that I expect you'll have trouble getting time with your son. Forget about full custody, unless you can get her adjudicated incompetent or dangerous you're not going to get it. Your goal should be 50%. You can try for more but realistically that's the best you're likely to get.

It's time for you to stand strong. It's time for you to stop taking her crap. You've got to stop focusing on winning her back and start focusing on recovering your equilibrium. Your mental and physical health, your sons mental and physical health, your relationship with her girls, your financial situation. All these things need to be higher priority than your wife now. 

Eliminate any access she has to your money. She should be living on her own resources when she moves out. Get into a gym and lift heavy weights, it will help you more than you know. See your doctor about anti-depressants. Explain your situation to him and ask for something to take the edge off, you won't be his first patient to go through something like this. Remember to eat, and do your best to sleep.

It's time to improve yourself, to return yourself to the you that won her over in the first place. Your son needs your best self, your step daughters will need your strength, and your wife needs to see what she's missing.

The odds are you're going to end up divorced. She's moving full speed in that direction and nothing you've done has slowed her down. You need to have a cordial co-parenting relationship with your wife. Don't pick at her, don't put her down, be polite to her. You'd be polite to the cashier at the grocery store, wouldn't you? Treat her with the same polite indifference you would a stranger. Don't take any crap from her but don't dish it out either.

Strive to make yourself the best man you can be. It's your best shot at winning her back. But don't expect that. The problem with your marriage is between her ears, and I don't think she's wife material without some serious IC.


----------



## Nucking Futs

One more thing I forgot to mention. Do not interact with her without a var in your pocket. Try to avoid voice conversations on the phone, keep it to text and email so you have a "paper" trail. If you have to talk to her on the phone, put it on speaker so the var in your pocket can get her side of it.

Remember, she's has chosen to be your opponent rather than your wife, act accordingly and protect yourself.


----------



## turnera

Still, I hope you're seeing a lawyer today, no matter what happens. Don't let her be the one to file for permanent custody of your son and then YOU have to scramble to justify why you get SOME custody.


----------



## DayOne

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I'm going to take a break from TAM for a while.


In the nicest possible way of saying this, that's a great idea. You need to get advice from the real world, perhaps the church group that you mentioned before.

It's horrible that things went south the way they did, I wish you all the best for whats coming.

D1


----------



## Blonde

Chaparral said:


> At this point, she is probably just another serial cheater. The problem with that is that there is nothing you can do. You keep trying to blame Stil for things he has done in the past. His past in no way compares to her cheating behavior and its not even close. Husbands and children are just obstacles to her. At this point I'm not sure she will try very hard for her sons custody.


^^bitter and disrespectful

Still was an active participant in the adultery which started their relationship so he is no innocent victim here. One of God's promises with teeth:

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. *A man reaps what he sows.* Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap life." Gal 6:7-9​
David was an adulterer and a man after God's own heart. Jesus treated the woman caught in the very act of adultery with great kindness and compassion (*not disrespect!*).

God is in the business of making beauty out of ashes.


----------



## turnera

I tend to give people second chances. Because I know humans are weak, ignorant, and gullible. Still thought he was doing the right thing, rescuing her (although we still don't know if her first H was actually abusive), and he made a good life out of it and remained faithful and relatively loving. She, on the other hand, blew her second chance.


----------



## Duguesclin

Blossom Leigh said:


> You can still talk to his boss quietly. That needs to happen for the church sake, not for retribution.
> 
> *Have you seen the movie Fireproof?*


Post 474, page 32 on Dec 19th.


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## Blossom Leigh

Blonde... I assure you... the *adulterous woman*saw the depth of her own depravity staring into the pure HOLY compassionate face of Jesus. She SAW her destructiveness. She saw the terror of what faced her if she didn't turn away. Jesus didn't have to say anything further... she got it.


----------



## Blonde

BL, I am referring to John 8 where the pharisees pulled her out of the very act and dragged her before Jesus in hopes that she would be stoned.

There is no indication in the passage of her heart condition, and *Jesus was compassionate.*


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> BL, I am referring to John 8 where the pharisees pulled her out of the very act and dragged her before Jesus in hopes that she would be stoned.
> 
> There is no indication in the passage of her heart condition, and *Jesus was compassionate.*


I know exactly which passage you are referring to...

I believe his compassion is what showed her the depth of her own depravity...


----------



## As'laDain

I love that passage... the one where Jesus showed woman that even those who seem righteous and are there to condemn her, are not without sin themselves. The only one without sin just wanted her to make the choice to stop sinning. She can't do that once she is dead. I think that message had a far more profound meaning than simple compassion. I think that message was a statement. That it doesn't matter how long it takes, anyone at any time can walk away from their life of sin and find salvation. Until they are dead, they will always be worthy of forgiveness and freedom of sin if they repent and call on Jesus to declare them worthy of salvation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

Blossom Leigh said:


> I know exactly which passage you are referring to...


Really?

then why did you call her "the woman at the well"?

The woman at the well was a Samaritan with 5 husbands and a current live-in to whom she wasn't married.

It is a different account BL, found in John 4.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> Really?
> 
> then why did you call her "the woman at the well"?
> 
> The woman at the well was a Samaritan with 5 husbands and a current live-in to whom she wasn't married.
> 
> It is a different account BL, found in John 4.



Oh geeze... slip of the tongue Blonde, I KNEW you mean the adulterous woman... my point remains the same.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> Blonde... I assure you... the *adulterous woman*saw the depth of her own depravity staring into the pure HOLY compassionate face of Jesus. She SAW her destructiveness. She saw the terror of what faced her if she didn't turn away. Jesus didn't have to say anything further... she got it.


There is that better?


----------



## Chaparral

His point wasn't whether she should be stoned or not. Jewish law at the time condemned adulterers to death. Jesus was emphatic in stating he did not come to change the law. He even made it harder to divorce than Moses had original made it.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, Stil's wife plan isn't to go and sin no more, she is committing adultery again.


----------



## As'laDain

And hence the death of the self. It doesn't require physical death. Hopefully, in the face of the consequences of her actions, Stills wife will make the decision to stop. She may only do that if the consequences are something that scares her. If that happens, then it is time for the compassion of Christ.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

As'laDain said:


> And hence the death of the self. It doesn't require physical death. Hopefully, in the face of the consequences of her actions, Stills wife will make the decision to stop. She may only do that if the consequences are something that scares her. If that happens, then it is time for the compassion of Christ.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is the great thing about religion. She can be adulterous over and over again. As long as she repents sometime before she dies.


----------



## happy as a clam

SadSamIAm said:


> *That is the great thing about religion.* She can be adulterous over and over again. As long as she repents sometime before she dies.


Well, how convenient.

She can be adulterous over and over again -- no matter how many husbands and children she hurts -- as long as she confesses on her death bed.

And I would present that there is a BIG difference between "religion" and "faith."

She may be acting (in her mind) according to the "rules" in her religion -- "As long as I confess it, it's OK" but she surely isn't living her faith in any meaningful way. She has crushed two husbands and three children with her twisted "religion."

And I happen to be Catholic.


----------



## Nucking Futs

happy as a clam said:


> Well, how convenient.
> 
> She can be adulterous over and over again -- no matter how many husbands and children she hurts -- as long as she confesses on her death bed.
> 
> And I would present that there is a BIG difference between "religion" and "faith."
> 
> She may be acting (in her mind) according to the "rules" in her religion -- "As long as I confess it, it's OK" but she surely isn't living her faith in any meaningful way. She has crushed two husbands and three children with her twisted "religion."
> 
> *And I happen to be Catholic.*


Don't worry about it, I won't hold it against you. It's not like you're a yankee or something.


----------



## happy as a clam

Nucking Futs said:


> Don't worry about it, I won't hold it against you. It's not like you're a yankee or something.


:rofl:


----------



## Deejo

For stillkindofhopeful, these threads can and do tend to take on a life of their own.

I'm closing this one for now. I will reopen it at your request.

Please feel free to PM me, or any of the mods.

I sincerely hope you find your way to healing, peace, and strength.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I wanted to write and update everyone who had invested their time and interest and heartfelt advice on this thread that basically ended up chronicling the hardest chapter in my life to date.

Last I wrote, I had confronted the guy my wife had been having an emotional affair with for the past 7+ months. She was very upset and ended up not coming home that night, staying with the kids at her folks house.

After that, it didn't get any better. 
Please understand I'm not seeking advice on this post anymore, just closing it out.

She came home Monday evening, gave me my son and went stayed at her folks again with the girls.

No major fireworks until NYE.

I came home from work and she was home with the kids. When I came in you could tell the girls weren't expecting to see me, but were glad when they did. They were getting ready to go to their dad's for NYE and the rest of the week.

The youngest hugged me and on her way out asked if she'd see me Monday. I don't recall what I said, something along the lines of "we'll see, I hope so" in an attempt at being upbeat and nonchalant. Then before they left they both came and hugged me again. 

I had brought my son home 5 different kinds of gummis. We both like them so for NYE I was going to let him choose from them like a little buffet and we were going to do that have pizza and see how long he stayed up. I went out and gave the girls one of the bags for them to share on their trip home. That was the last I have seen of them.

A friend of mine came over and we hung out. We ended up taking down the Christmas tree. Up to that point, it still looked like Christmas was yesterday.

My son began to cry for mom. It both hurt me (for him) and was irritating. 

Let me back up...Tuesday she was home (I'm still here, they are gone) and I asked her a little sarcastically if she was going to be with her BF for NYE. She said no and that she didn't even consider it, that she cut it off anyway and that she will be going to church.

That night I texted and told her the comment may not have been appropriate and that I wanted to keep things amicable. She responded that it wasn't appropriate but that she probably deserved it and told me in detail her NYE plans. We texted a bit back and forth that night, one of those "glimpses" again of the wife that I used to know.

So back to NYE, earlier that day she mentioned she would be coming by with two friends to move the girls bedroom furniture the next morning.

That night, I texted her saying that my son was crying for her and I hated this part, the hurt that he has that he doesn't understand.

She offered to come by and lay down with him until he went to sleep.

My friend left for a bit, and she came over. We talked for a few minutes, she began to get irritated and we both went and laid down with my son until he fell asleep. She asked if she could tell me something, I said sure. She said she wanted to talk at times but that I just pushed her for too much too soon and that the situation with the OM wasn't who she really was and that she was sorry. I told her that we are all just people, nobody is perfect. She said that she never meant for it to happen and that was why she never wanted me to talk to other girls because it can happen unexpectedly and that he never pressured her to talk about anything sexually. (For most of you reading this, I can already imagine what you are thinking).

She also said that my previous text was heartfelt and compassionate and she appreciated it, but that the one about my son crying wasn't...(but that was the one that got her to come here)...for whatever that is worth.

When she left, I went outside and asked her to reconsider moving the girls stuff out. That if she did, I was afraid they would want to just move back to their dads. (Her sister, who I talked to the day before, said basically that the older girl was already wanting to). She didn't say yes or no, but I felt I had a decent chance of it working based on the conversation we had before she left.

On that note, I did talk to her sister the day after I confronted the guy...one text about where the girls were the night she had gone to her folks led to a longer conversation. We spoke a few times that day. Apparently most in the family knew what was going on with the OM. Not the extent of it, just that there may have been someone else. No one bothered to tell me that night I was there. I don't know that I blame them but I recall how nice of a night it was with everyone again.
After talking to her sister, I felt a little better. I made the mistake of texting her mom and telling her that I still loved their daughter and that I'm sorry things had ever gotten to this point. Later that day I received a text from my wife asking to not contact her family anymore. The little lift I had earlier deflated again. Not really a big deal, I was pretty much used to it. But in retrospect, I don't recommend texting your exes parents, even if it is an olive branch attempt.

To cut to the chase, NYE it looked like Christmas. New Year's Day by 2:00 it looked like no one lived there.

Her parents come over to help her move. I had my son go with my mom because in case they did come (in case anyone came) I wanted them to know my thoughts on the girls and moving the furniture out.

Her mom lashed out at me. She also told me that my wife still wasn't sure if it was over, she just needed space but that we should work it out. It took me by surprise. I've always thought a lot of her mom. Her dad was there but didn't say anything.

(Her sister earlier had said that her mom was the only one at this point that could maybe talk some sense into my wife and get her to seek actual help. But instead, she was being the typical protective mom which I expected.)

Her mom said she wasn't going to "throw stones" or judge me for some of the things I had done. I asked 3 times to throw the stones. I wanted to see what they were made of. When I brought up the other guy she was quick to say "they were just text messages" and went on like it was a side subject.

So I left, still assuming they were helping with the girls furniture.

I come back home with my son and everything is gone except my bedroom furniture (it is some big, heavy stuff), my office, and half of my son's room.

My son comes in and looks around. He looks up at where the TV was and says "t-gee? t-gee?." I was in a bit of disbelief myself.
It had just looked like Christmas less then 18 hours ago.

Her cousin (and a mutual friend of mine) took me into my office and was asking if I wanted to be here for this. At that point, my wife had come in the house and I knew she saw me go on the office with her cousin. She came in and said, "Are you going to pull everyone aside and talk to them??" at which point her cousin told her she had brought me in there herself. I told my wife at that point "you said you were coming for the girls bedroom furniture...JUST the furniture." She said it was common sense she'd need more things, she didn't have anything. I told her that I keep getting these "half truths". She disagreed. But it was true. I think it clued her cousin in a little more.

My son and stayed there. I let them clean out the house while my son and stayed. I found balloons in his room and we took them into the newly empty living room and played with them in there. We moved on to trains. Brought out his train table that took up most of his room and played with it in the living room.

After some time, we finally just sat in the corned or the empty room with an iPad. He fell asleep in my lap and we sat there until everyone left (they had been doing up and downstairs cleaning out the various rooms in both floors). 

We stayed there partially because I didn't know what else to do and then I figured, let them clean out their son's (and grandson's) house right in front of him. Let him sleeping in my lap in the corner of the room that they emptied out be the last thing they remember of this trip.

The thing is, they did the exact same thing with her first husband. Went in during the middle of the day and cleaned it out and brought her and the kids home with them. They are good people, they were trying to help their daughter. When it was her first husband, I didn't have an issue with it because I was still imagining the abusive jerk that I wish she had left 5 years earlier. Now it was me. Here they are, back in the middle of the day, expecting me to be gone, cleaning out this house. Washer and dryer...everything (except fridge and dishwasher).

That night, I thankfully had two friends come over and help me move the couch and recliner and TV from downstairs (they had left that...the TV is about 90 inches...huge. I didn't even know if we'd get it moved). They were there before her parents were finally done. I introduced everyone to everyone.
My friend, the one from NYE, was old, close friends with her cousin and her cousin's brother...they actually came back over after everyone left so they could visit with him.

So I was thankful that the next night, when she brought my son home, she came in to a really nice looking upstairs. She was impressed. Heck, I was impressed. I really like my upstairs.

At this point, nothing has changed. She moved. The divorce filings were in the paper today. I still hadn't received anything. I called my attorney and told them the city knew about my divorce before I did. I still kind of halfway hoped maybe she rescinded the filing. She didn't.

She is requesting the same schedule for my son that she has with the girls. Which would leave him seeing me one night a week and every other weekend. I read it this evening after my attorney somehow got it within the hour that I called. 

I am reading up on custody in my state. My attorney said it is a lot a beauty contest. Currently, I look better. I understand my wife did it basically as a strategy...ask for a lot, settle for the middle.

I am not planning to settle for the middle. I told her to begin with, if she wants a divorce I can't help that but I have no intention of losing half of my son's life over a divorce I never wanted.

I don't think she understands I have copies of the letters. My attorney said they are admissible. I don't think she understands I will call the OM to testify if it helps, or her ex-husband...or one other situation I haven't mentioned on here from a long time ago I had forgotten about until now. 

I don't want to be that way, but this is my son. I will be a lot more flexible with her seeing him than she would be (has been) with me. I asked for one day this weekend (I had him last weekend but it was also because she worked Friday, Saturday and Sunday night). She was quick to say "nope, it was her weekend."

I know this was long, but I was doing it as much for my own sake as for any of you that made it through all of this.

This thread has become a real-time journal for me that I really never want to have to look at again, but I'm kind of glad to know it is here.

Do I still love her? I do. Am I trying to reconcile? I am trying to preserve my relationship with my son. I do feel every bit as able bodied of a parent as her. I feel more stable. I have no desire to leave this area at this point and if she has custody, I know the day will come when she does. She brought it up before.

I miss the girls. I always miss my son. I miss the wife that I used to know. She had been planning, to some degree, all of this since she met that other guy. I squashed that. Or tried to. It was her escape route from a life that I honestly didn't feel was too bad of a life. I was her first escape route. 

I know I can meet someone who loves me for me and not for what they want to think I am.

When I met her again, I was making 200k+ a year from a company I built with my own hands. No loans, just a college degree. 4 years later, I am now in debt.

I can get back on my feet. I did it once. I will do it again.

I married the girl I always wanted to. The only one I truly thought was "the one". I can at least now say that I know what it is like and can move on. I feel like I need to see it that way for now. It helps me cope.

I can see better days but for now I see a custody battle. I still see and feel hurt. It comes and goes. Sometimes still very strong, but not like it used to be. I am thankful for that. 

I don't want to hurt my wife or her character that I believe she has in her still somewhere. But I have to focus on my son. I won't hinder a relationship with him and his mom. I know it is important and that she loves him. I just also know that I will be much more lenient with them having time together that she has shown to be with me. 

I hope to help others now with what I've been through. I still have more to go through but I can see things now through eyes that I hadn't had until now. I don't want them, but I have them, so I hope I can somehow bring others a little hope or help through all of this.

Thanks again.

J


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## farsidejunky

Dammit, brother. I am so sorry.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Me too.


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## honcho

So sorry she has chosen to follow this path. My stbx did many of the same things, she told me she wanted some clothes from the house while I was at work and when I came home she completely cleared rooms. Even took the carpeting out of one. I understand how much it hurts and how "empty" the house feels suddenly. I found out about my divorce when it got posted on the court website. Took her about a week to finally tell me. 

You can look back at how she ended her first marriage and her patterns from that as people are creatures of habit. How she handled things the first time is probably how she will do it this time. 

Take care of your son and do what is best for him. Take care of yourself also. This is not a fun journey and the road has many bumps in it.


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## HobbesTheTiger

Please, read http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...prepare-potential-divorce-custody-battle.html and protect yourself and your son. I hope she'll ensure the girls get therapy to help them cope with all of this.

Best wishes!


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## DayOne

I have no words, Still. Pulling for you though.


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## Blonde

So sorry, Still  

I hope you find comfort and peace in the Lord.


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## Chaparral

Exercise (LOL I have to after reading threads like this)

See your MD

Do the 180 except go even darker in your communication with her. Text only and keep a record of everything she does and took out of your home. VAR all meetings, you still think you have a handle on her but you don't. Think of this as a life and death struggle and you've been left at the starting gate. 

Check out dadsdivorce.com

Study the divorce laws in your state

Subpoena her phone records and all her social media

Subpoena her ex

Subpoena her boyfriend and notify his pastor to what he has done to your family. I would go to his church and witness against him.

Counseling for you and your son. Do not discount PTSD counseling, it may even help in your divorce case.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I have done/ am doing the 180.
I've gone darker.

I have been, and continue to read up on my states laws on divorce and custody.
I haven't done any subpoenas. I just got served last night and that was my first look at what she was requesting.
But I have already planned to use her ex, her EA partner and anyone else necessary to bolster my case.

Custody is usually 50/50 in regards to not favoring a mother for the sake of her being the mother. My attorney said it is a lot a beauty contest and that things look better for me.

I haven't done the VAR. Probably wish I would have at this point but even without it, I have texts and photos of the letters and she is the one that left the house. 

It won't be easy but I'm going to do everything I can for as much time with my son as I can get. I still don't want to disparage her reputation. I still think she is as messed up as anyone and may one day wake up but until that day comes I have to assume now that it won't otherwise she will eat my lunch in court and I can't let that happen.

A couple side notes...when she left the house and moved out, she took one of the pictures of us that I had put in our closet the night before.

We met up at church last week because I was taking my son and even though I told her, she said she planned to go to the same service so I may as well sit beside her. So I did and she was wearing both rings. Up until then I had only seen her wearing the band and not the rock. That day she was wearing both again.

Little things like that led me to think maybe she would rescind the divorce filing. But she didn't. So forward we go with this sad mess.

But I do see the light. I can be in a great relationship again. I can meet a woman who will love my son and I. We will always be a package deal. 

Things will be good again.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I am seeing a counselor too. I may end up going to his church. He would have told this guy's pastor as well. He also would have punched him in the face. He thought I handled the situation with more grace than was deserved. 

I do now consider still talking to his pastor. I haven't decided and want to have it as an option if necessary. 

I know what grace has done for me in my life at times. I wanted to view that situation as grace for him...but I also hoped my wife would show me some at some point in all of this. 

We will see. That is just where I am at right now.


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## farsidejunky

Your grace will allow the sin to remain in the dark. You are better than that, Christian.

Let him seek grace from God.


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## turnera

I would go to his pastor if nothing else than to get him help to see what he did to a family.

Your wife has a pattern of running and cheating. You're better off without her. 

And spend ALL your spare time researching every single way to ensure you get major custody.


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## CarlaRose

You have some goods on your wife and plan to use that, along with testimony from her first husband and her EA partner against her. All of that may show her as not the best person to fall in love with and not exactly wife material, but none of it will prove her to be an unfit mother. Proving her unfit or a danger to her child(ren) is what you need to increase your likelihood of gaining custody of the minor child.

You're reading up on the laws in your state, but the laws have little to do with anything. For the most part, what you're reading is telling you have a chance to be awarded custody because the state doesn't discriminate, since discrimination is illegal. But, what you're reading is misleading, or at least can be. What matters is the propensity of the court. See if you can find court rulings or some way to find out how the court in your area usually rules in cases where the mother has not been proven or even accused of being unfit. That will tell you the realistic chance you have of gaining custody.

And don't listen to your attorney either. His objective is to give you hope. They all do that. They do that no matter what. It's called job security, but it's false hope because they know the propensity of the court. They know if a guy has a chance in hell and if he doesn't, and they know a guy ordinarily doesn't. The courts in most states do give favor to the mother. There are a few states that don't, but a very few. Again, I'm not talking about the laws. I'm talking what the courts normally do - who they normally award custody to in cases where the father is asking for primary custody and has not accused or proven the mother of being unfit. When the case is over, all your attorney is going to do is brush it off and try to play up the little pittance of the result that you are able to consider in your favor. Your attorney is not ever going to tell you there is no chance you can get primary custody. He's just going to keep on giving you (false) hope so you'll have faith in him.....and keep forking over more money.

So, I didn't say all that to burst your bubble. I said it as a dose of reality to reverse that false hope your attorney encourages. I don't know if you can get primary custody or not. I'm only suggesting the best route to take to find out if it's possible or to be able to most accurately ascertain the likelihood.

I wish you well and really hope you ARE able to get custody of your son. Your wife did you really wrong, and I hope you can successfully move on from her into prosperity and the love you so richly deserve.


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## Chaparral

While you're researching, google serial cheater and see if you think that applies. This seems to be a repeat performance. Have you begun to doubt her abuse claims in her first marriage?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I don't doubt it but I do wonder now if it was embellished a little or a lot.

The information I got from the websites about child custody came from the state website for my state. 

The other thing that I can show if I have to and need to, although I hope I don't, is a situation that happened when we were dating when the law was called on her by a neighbor for leaving her child outside in inclement weather screaming and crying to come back inside. She got the idea from a book on parenting a strong willed child I think, but still it happened. 

Also, my son will be sharing a room with his sister (the strong-willed one) as she is currently living in a 3 bedroom with 3 kids. 

Not sure if that will help. I imagine she will want this house back. I initially offered it to her. I initially offered for me to take the rental house so the kids could stay here but she said it was too late.


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## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> *I haven't done the VAR.* Probably wish I would have at this point but even without it, I have texts and photos of the letters and she is the one that left the house.


Still, I don't want to hassle you, but I have to ask why you didn't use a var? I ask because I have a perception that betrayeds are resisting that suggestion more now than in the past. It might be all in my head but it might be the way we're presenting it or arguing back and forth among us or something else. So if you don't mind, in the interest of helping us help future betrayeds, can you walk us through the thought process that led to this decision?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Well, kind of two reasons...I did feel like If she had legitimate trust issues with me and then found out I was recording her conversations, that would have put the nail in the coffin. 

But also, I went to the local electronics store and they didn't have any. So I went to the Best Buy the night before the confrontation and didn't find a VAR there either. They had recorders, just not the VAR. I even looked on TAM at weightlifters profile to find the right one.

After that everything went by quick. She never stayed another night at the house. Since I already had my reserves about it, I figured not finding it at either place where both should have at least one, was a type of confirmation I guess. I let it go.

I can definitely see where it could have been valuable but the trust it would have destroyed (considering everything else going on) was just as valuable or moreso.

That was my thinking. Hope it helps.


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## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I don't doubt it but I do wonder now if it was embellished a little or a lot.
> 
> The information I got from the websites about child custody came from the state website for my state.
> 
> The other thing that I can show if I have to and need to, although I hope I don't, is a situation that happened when we were dating when the law was called on her by a neighbor for leaving her child outside in inclement weather screaming and crying to come back inside. She got the idea from a book on parenting a strong willed child I think, but still it happened.
> 
> Also, my son will be sharing a room with his sister (the strong-willed one) as she is currently living in a 3 bedroom with 3 kids.
> 
> Not sure if that will help. I imagine she will want this house back. I initially offered it to her. I initially offered for me to take the rental house so the kids could stay here but she said it was too late.


Mine was out of the house for a year when she "decided" she wanted the house back out of the blue. Divorce is a great deal of hurry up and wait. Its one of the more frustrating aspects of it. The first month after the papers have been filed both parties are really in a no mans land and walk around in a state of shock it seems. 

The best for you would be to move the divorce along as fast as you can and she will most likely drag her heels and this is very typical. This is another one of the no-win scenarios in your position. If you push to move the divorce your the bad guy for moving it along. and "forcing her" away. If you languish and wait the deals get worse and she will spin it that you cant let her go and your obsessed etc.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Yeah, I can see her waiting until I start making the money I used to. It's getting there. She can have a % for my son so she always gets more the better I do. That doesn't matter to me. Assuming the % that is.

I did look it up tonight. A VAR is admissible in court in my state as long as I am one of the participants. If I'm not involved, it is illegal. Well, at least it isn't admissible.


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## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Yeah, I can see her waiting until I start making the money I used to. It's getting there. She can have a % for my son so she always gets more the better I do. That doesn't matter to me. Assuming the % that is.
> 
> I did look it up tonight. A VAR is admissible in court in my state as long as I am one of the participants. If I'm not involved, it is illegal. Well, at least it isn't admissible.


In my opinion the VAR is most effective to help break the BS out of the denial stage of what is going on. Usually hearing the recordings after listening to the WS lie and gaslight a person usually bring reality back pretty quick. 

From a court standpoint it would probably never get to that point and its usually effective once a lawyer starts saying they have recordings the other party usually starts to want to cut a deal. Affairs whether EA or PA feed and live on secrecy. Most never want it to come to light so the fear factor comes into play. They need the perfect image rather than the imperfect.

In the legal stuff, you haven't been married that long I dont think so alimony shouldn't play a factor in divorce. Its dependent on the state obviously. They almost always look back at the last two years more than what might happen in the future. She has a good job and good earning capacity. She will need to work full-time and that is how they will base child support off of if she gets or goes after any. Its not just factored on you.


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## honcho

foolscotton3 said:


> Also, only fight for what you need, some ex-spouses get consumed with spite, and end up paying lawyers thousands for petty property. Fight for sentimental family heirlooms, but don't waste a thousand dollars for a TV that you can replace for a thousand dollars.


Exactly! my spouse has a thing for stuff and junk. she has been fixated on this for over a year and forced us to spend thousands and thousand of dollars chasing nonsense. Family momentos are one thing, fighting over toasters is another.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Good advice from you guys. Thanks!


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Last night I went to her new place for the first time to drop off my son.

I have to say, I pretty much wish I hadn't. She offered to come pick him up but I opted to take him back.

It was like I had a little flashback of when we first started dating and she lived in a smaller town in a little but nice duplex. Her and her two girls in a little two bedroom home.

This time it was in a little bigger town (ours) in a little bigger home on a little larger street. This time it is 3 bedrooms and she has one extra child. Mine.

She seemed happy enough...we both seem happy enough now. If it isn't real, it is at least strategy.

When she dropped my son off, she noted that the house smelled good and she liked my new shirt (one I bought the night I went shopping, the day before I confronted her AP).

I still see the woman I love. I still see the woman I've always wanted to protect and provide for. Now I see her more vulnerable and unprotected, with my son under her wing, when everyone should be under mine as the leader of this family.

Lord do I wish I could take back some of the hurtful things that I never realized were as damaging.

I still realize I can't accept the blame for her actions and that I am not the only one responsible for the destruction of this marriage. It just hurts again now having seen her and the new place last night.

I consider seeing other people...the kind of people I'd like to see...sometimes I just want to talk so I know I'm still relevant. I'm not going to date now by any means. I just note the kind of people I'd like to be with, the kind that make me feel good about myself and that I can have fun with and can trust. Then I remember that is what I was to her. And this is where we are now. And I just want to refocus on God and still pray somewhere down the line for restoration. 

I can see myself married again for sure. This morning is probably just part of the process of healing and not a sign to not give up hope. Just a "down" in a series of ups and downs. I will still pray for her and my kids. The reality is, few relationships get past where we are and truly get stronger from what I can tell. I believe that He can, I just don't know that He will anymore. Lack of faith on my part I know...I'm doing more "seeing" than believing right now.

God is God and He can do anything. Whether it is restore this marriage, or help us grow stronger for what we have both been through, I just really pray he takes care of my family when I am not there these days. The hearts and minds of our kids. The heart and mind of my wife. The heart and mind of myself. Lord knows I need it, too.


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## Regretf

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Last night I went to her new place for the first time to drop off my son.
> 
> I have to say, I pretty much wish I hadn't. She offered to come pick him up but I opted to take him back.
> 
> It was like I had a little flashback of when we first started dating and she lived in a smaller town in a little but nice duplex. Her and her two girls in a little two bedroom home.
> 
> This time it was in a little bigger town (ours) in a little bigger home on a little larger street. This time it is 3 bedrooms and she has one extra child. Mine.
> 
> She seemed happy enough...we both seem happy enough now. If it isn't real, it is at least strategy.
> 
> When she dropped my son off, she noted that the house smelled good and she liked my new shirt (one I bought the night I went shopping, the day before I confronted her AP).
> 
> I still see the woman I love. I still see the woman I've always wanted to protect and provide for. Now I see her more vulnerable and unprotected, with my son under her wing, when everyone should be under mine as the leader of this family.
> 
> Lord do I wish I could take back some of the hurtful things that I never realized were as damaging.
> 
> I still realize I can't accept the blame for her actions and that I am not the only one responsible for the destruction of this marriage. It just hurts again now having seen her and the new place last night.
> 
> I consider seeing other people...the kind of people I'd like to see...sometimes I just want to talk so I know I'm still relevant. I'm not going to date now by any means. I just note the kind of people I'd like to be with, the kind that make me feel good about myself and that I can have fun with and can trust. Then I remember that is what I was to her. And this is where we are now. And I just want to refocus on God and still pray somewhere down the line for restoration.
> 
> I can see myself married again for sure. This morning is probably just part of the process of healing and not a sign to not give up hope. Just a "down" in a series of ups and downs. I will still pray for her and my kids. The reality is, few relationships get past where we are and truly get stronger from what I can tell. I believe that He can, I just don't know that He will anymore. Lack of faith on my part I know...I'm doing more "seeing" than believing right now.
> 
> God is God and He can do anything. Whether it is restore this marriage, or help us grow stronger for what we have both been through, I just really pray he takes care of my family when I am not there these days. The hearts and minds of our kids. The heart and mind of my wife. The heart and mind of myself. Lord knows I need it, too.


Brother i understand you more and more. I've been lurking at your thread for quiet a long time, since i haven't had the courage to post about my situation (headed for divorce, unfourtunately).

Pray to God and also take care of yourself, if your marriage is meant to be restored God will do everything to make it happen, if not, like others have said, you will grow stronger out of this. I also pray for my still wife and son everyday, it's hard not being with them everyday, specially my son.

You also have to remember that even though God spites divorce, there is a thing called free will, and you wife is just doing that. I also believe that she has to hit rock bottom before she realizes what she has done and the damage it has caused to others, i don't think she's at that point yet, but she will, and sadly i believe it will be too late as you would have already moved on.

Pray to god to give you strenght, to help you carry your burden, to help you be a better father, after all, your son should be priority number one for you, be the best dad you can be.

I also believe God loves us all, and if you ara a good person good things will come to you, it might not be with your wife, but down the road you, i and others will realize his plan is perfect. Remember God does things on his own time, we don't understand and want to things to move to our pace, but he knows better.

Take care, be srong for your son, he needs you, you are his role model, his hero, he looks up to you, never forget that. Don't let him see you sad or depressed and never ever say a bad word to him about his mother. He needs you both.

May the good lord shine a light on you.


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## naiveonedave

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Yeah, I can see her waiting until I start making the money I used to. It's getting there. She can have a % for my son so she always gets more the better I do. That doesn't matter to me. Assuming the % that is.
> 
> I did look it up tonight. A VAR is admissible in court in my state as long as I am one of the participants. If I'm not involved, it is illegal. Well, at least it isn't admissible.


not admissable, but the cops/DA will listen to it and not charge you with abuse if you didn't do anything.

Also, it gives you information. If she is cheating, you will know for sure.

You don't need it for the court room, you need info and potentially protection.


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## farsidejunky

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Last night I went to her new place for the first time to drop off my son.
> 
> I have to say, I pretty much wish I hadn't. She offered to come pick him up but I opted to take him back.
> 
> It was like I had a little flashback of when we first started dating and she lived in a smaller town in a little but nice duplex. Her and her two girls in a little two bedroom home.
> 
> This time it was in a little bigger town (ours) in a little bigger home on a little larger street. This time it is 3 bedrooms and she has one extra child. Mine.


I think you need to take _some_ heart in the fact that this is her pattern.



Stillkindofhopefull said:


> She seemed happy enough...we both seem happy enough now. If it isn't real, it is at least strategy.
> 
> When she dropped my son off, she noted that the house smelled good and she liked my new shirt (one I bought the night I went shopping, the day before I confronted her AP).


I hope you are not looking too much into either of these things.



Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I still see the woman I love. I still see the woman I've always wanted to protect and provide for. Now I see her more vulnerable and unprotected, with my son under her wing, when everyone should be under mine as the leader of this family.


Brother, she has made herself vulnerable and unprotected, assuming she is at all. This is not virgin territory for her.



Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Lord do I wish I could take back some of the hurtful things that I never realized were as damaging.
> 
> I still realize I can't accept the blame for her actions and that I am not the only one responsible for the destruction of this marriage. It just hurts again now having seen her and the new place last night.


This is good, healthy. Understanding your role in what led to the decision is yours to own. Understanding that she made the decision is hers to own. It doesn't make it hurt any less, but it is the right outlook.



Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I consider seeing other people...the kind of people I'd like to see...sometimes I just want to talk so I know I'm still relevant. I'm not going to date now by any means. I just note the kind of people I'd like to be with, the kind that make me feel good about myself and that I can have fun with and can trust. Then I remember that is what I was to her. And this is where we are now. And I just want to refocus on God and still pray somewhere down the line for restoration.


You should get out, socialize, mingle. Talk to any woman you find attractive. Not to try to get a date, because you are not ready for that yet. But to just kind of build things up inside of you. 

God should be at the forefront of all you do. Not your co-pilot, but your pilot. Have you considered a limited fasting to refocus your energies on Him? It might be a good way to refocus your energies. 



Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I can see myself married again for sure. This morning is probably just part of the process of healing and not a sign to not give up hope. Just a "down" in a series of ups and downs. I will still pray for her and my kids. The reality is, few relationships get past where we are and truly get stronger from what I can tell. I believe that He can, I just don't know that He will anymore. Lack of faith on my part I know...I'm doing more "seeing" than believing right now.
> 
> God is God and He can do anything. Whether it is restore this marriage, or help us grow stronger for what we have both been through, I just really pray he takes care of my family when I am not there these days. The hearts and minds of our kids. The heart and mind of my wife. The heart and mind of myself. Lord knows I need it, too.


You do need to assume it is over, and carry yourself accordingly. Be cordial, be a good co-parent, yet be prepared to take her to the woodshed over custody if necessary. 

When my first wife left me, I was angry. Angry at her for leaving me. Angry at God for allowing it to happen. And here I am, remarried, and after some strife, enjoying it as it is the best it has ever been between us. I have a son whom I love dearly. So keep reminding yourself that He has a plan for you. It is your job to listen for his direction in your life. 

Continue to pray. Ask him to help you become the man He wants you to be. Then do it. Become that man.

And remember, He will give us what we need, not necessarily what we want.

One more point, brother. Remember the actions you took. The ones you know were out of bounds for both your faith and you marriage. Do not repeat them. Honor your God and yourself by demonstrating that you learned from your mistakes.

Keep posting, brother. We are here to help.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Sorry you're in my boat Regret. Wouldn't wish it on anyone. Thank you for your advice and encouragement.

Sometimes I look on here and read other situations and I know mine could be worse. My life could always be worse but I am so ready for it to getting better.

I know kids can be fine...but I also know that all of them aren't and just because they don't say doesn't mean they won't later act it out. I hate the feeling of rejection...and to think our actions may be instilling that in any of our kids makes me sick to my stomach.

I haven't seen the girls since it all went down last week. They weren't in the living room when I dropped off my son.

Farside, thanks for the encouragement as well. You've been good about checking up on me and I appreciate it.

Today is just one of those days. I'm doing okay but man do I miss them. I get flashbacks of good moments and wonder again how it could all just be gone. But it is. 

I agree that I shouldn't expect her to return...everyone has been right about not being able to nice your way back into something. 

One thing I have noticed is that every significant girl in my life has stayed in my life and on good terms. One ex has been checking up on me (with her husband's knowledge) and advising me to keep my game face as custody heats up. Lawyers/evaluators would be welcome to talk to anyone I've been in a relationship with. 

To a degree, all have come back around in different phases in my life. So I do kind of hope it could happen with her, but when it has has been when I was already in a situation with someone else. 

In her situation, I was in a relationship with another girl and broke up with her for my wife (there were already red flags, I mentioned it before in other posts). 

Why my wife has had the significance in my life that she has had...basically since I was 17, I will never know. For it end this way is so sad.

I have to tell myself that at least I married the one I always wanted. So I know what that is like. Had she come into my life when I was in a marriage, she would have been the one to make me question it. So now, when I am happy again with someone else, at least I won't have that question. We also have a great son. 

Proof that good things come to those who wait...but not the promise that everything lasts forever.

I miss them all right now. Just one of those days. 

Better days are ahead.

Thanks again for all the encouragement.


----------



## turnera

When my SIL dumped my brother out of the blue, he returned to church; he's been spending lots of time there volunteering. He's also volunteering at other places, like the city's professional acting theater (as the guy who seats you), and with an animal shelter. He's getting back to things that matter to him, and much more happy.


----------



## Regretf

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Sorry you're in my boat Regret. Wouldn't wish it on anyone. Thank you for your advice and encouragement.
> 
> Sometimes I look on here and read other situations and I know mine could be worse. My life could always be worse but I am so ready for it to getting better.
> 
> I know kids can be fine...but I also know that all of them aren't and just because they don't say doesn't mean they won't later act it out. I hate the feeling of rejection...and to think our actions may be instilling that in any of our kids makes me sick to my stomach.
> 
> I haven't seen the girls since it all went down last week. They weren't in the living room when I dropped off my son.
> 
> Farside, thanks for the encouragement as well. You've been good about checking up on me and I appreciate it.
> 
> Today is just one of those days. I'm doing okay but man do I miss them. I get flashbacks of good moments and wonder again how it could all just be gone. But it is.
> 
> I agree that I shouldn't expect her to return...everyone has been right about not being able to nice your way back into something.
> 
> One thing I have noticed is that every significant girl in my life has stayed in my life and on good terms. One ex has been checking up on me (with her husband's knowledge) and advising me to keep my game face as custody heats up. Lawyers/evaluators would be welcome to talk to anyone I've been in a relationship with.
> 
> To a degree, all have come back around in different phases in my life. So I do kind of hope it could happen with her, but when it has has been when I was already in a situation with someone else.
> 
> In her situation, I was in a relationship with another girl and broke up with her for my wife (there were already red flags, I mentioned it before in other posts).
> 
> Why my wife has had the significance in my life that she has had...basically since I was 17, I will never know. For it end this way is so sad.
> 
> I have to tell myself that at least I married the one I always wanted. So I know what that is like. Had she come into my life when I was in a marriage, she would have been the one to make me question it. So now, when I am happy again with someone else, at least I won't have that question. We also have a great son.
> 
> Proof that good things come to those who wait...but not the promise that everything lasts forever.
> 
> I miss them all right now. Just one of those days.
> 
> Better days are ahead.
> 
> Thanks again for all the encouragement.


Better days will come my friends. At least you have the good memories to remember. It's sad watching a family get destroyed in your case your wife is really stupid, i wish she would come around but it seems unlikely, until she faces the consequences of her choice 8same as my wife) and then maybe she'll regret it. But you know it will be too late, as you've already moved on.

I miss my son everyday too, having him everyday back when i was with my wife i never realized how lucky i was, now the time i spend with him is "quality time" it should be the same with you and your son, make every momento count, tell him you love him and that you will always be there for him.

I can be positive that your wife won't find greener grass elsewhere. "Remember that the grass is greener where you wáter it"


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I write my son a note every night I don't have him.

I don't and won't trash his mom. She is a good woman with problems. I'm a good man with problems. Most everyone is in the same boat but the problems vary.

Forgiveness and grace is what saves us all. And the lack thereof is what destroys.

Our marriages are currently destroyed. Now we have to do our best to try to save the kids and see what happens next.

When I think about my son wondering where I am at...man, that gets me. When I think about the girls wondering to themselves if it really was something they did that made this happen (again) it makes me angrily sad (if that makes sense).

When I remember all the times she'd tell me she loves me out of the blue, I wish I could go back to any one of those moments and take up from there. I miss those.

Then when I think of all the times I've been trying and praying since this all went down, I remember now that there had always been someone else in the picture since then.

Then the cycle basically repeats itself so I basically try to stop remembering and start assuming, and working towards, a better future.


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## jld

Try to learn from this, and make healthier choices next time. It is all any of us can really do.


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## Regretf

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I write my son a note every night I don't have him.
> 
> I don't and won't trash his mom. She is a good woman with problems. I'm a good man with problems. Most everyone is in the same boat but the problems vary.
> 
> Forgiveness and grace is what saves us all. And the lack thereof is what destroys.
> 
> Our marriages are currently destroyed. Now we have to do our best to try to save the kids and see what happens next.
> 
> When I think about my son wondering where I am at...man, that gets me. When I think about the girls wondering to themselves if it really was something they did that made this happen (again) it makes me angrily sad (if that makes sense).
> 
> When I remember all the times she'd tell me she loves me out of the blue, I wish I could go back to any one of those moments and take up from there. I miss those.
> 
> Then when I think of all the times I've been trying and praying since this all went down, I remember now that there had always been someone else in the picture since then.
> 
> Then the cycle basically repeats itself so I basically try to stop remembering and start assuming, and working towards, a better future.


We all make the bed we lay in. I made many mistakes and now i'm paying for them. I'm shure you have made yours. There's no excuse for cheating and even then, her pushing for the divorce instead of being regretful and working hard to sabe the marriage leaves a lot to be desired of.

She'll have to live with the consequences of her actions and choices.


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## U.E. McGill

Im going to be the voice of pragmatism here. You my friend are a romantic. Nothing wrong with it, but it blinds you. You listen to your wife but fail to see her actions. 

She says "I don't know if I want to work it out" and moves out. 

She says she has trust issues with you, and then has an EA. 

She wears her wedding bands in church not because there's a glimmer of hope but because she's a sinner in church! She doesn't want the attention that no bands brings. 

She moves most of the community property out of the house because, well she obviously needs more of it. 

The message is clear. Her actions say she's done being married. She feels entitled to more than her fair share.

I see her as an entitled selfish woman who has little regard for those around her. 

Her actions speak for her.


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## SadSamIAm

U.E. McGill said:


> Im going to be the voice of pragmatism here. You my friend are a romantic. Nothing wrong with it, but it blinds you. You listen to your wife but fail to see her actions.
> 
> She says "I don't know if I want to work it out" and moves out.
> 
> She says she has trust issues with you, and then has an EA.
> 
> She wears her wedding bands in church not because there's a glimmer of hope but because she's a sinner in church! She doesn't want the attention that no bands brings.
> 
> She moves most of the community property out of the house because, well she obviously needs more of it.
> 
> The message is clear. Her actions say she's done being married. She feels entitled to more than her fair share.
> 
> I see her as an entitled selfish woman who has little regard for those around her.
> 
> Her actions speak for her.


I see her as a hypocrit. Church to her is all about appearance. Being there and wearing her rings to 'appear' righteous. Guessing she spends most of the service looking at her phone and the people around her and not listening to the message. She doesn't live any of it. Just acting!


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## Stillkindofhopefull

In her defense...for what it is worth, she takes notes in church every time. Always has. Not really the looking around type...but then again...maybe I wasn't watching her looking. 
As of yesterday she still wears both rings. Noted when i dropped my son off at her place and then when she came here to bring him back. 
Not insinuating anything, just painting a clear as picutre as possible for onlookers.

Here is my current question...she doesn't want me to sell this house, the one she left that we live in now. Our other home which is on the same street on the other side (and a couple homes down) is coming open the end of this month.

Financially I can sell it and split it and it would cover all of our current debts.

Focusing on the family, one of us could move there and as awkward as it may be, the kids are all basically together and the pick up/drop off is easy.

I'm going for primary custody/residency. I can more legitimately request all nights spent at my house and he can spend the days there for at least the next couple years.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I am supposed to submit something today in my attempt to have him at home with me at night during this process. That is what brought this up. I came up with 3 options, the one I mentioned in the above post being one of them.

I do think I could tolerate it for the sake of the kids. I have my moments but I am getting stronger and missing her less. Her actions have definitely been a love killer and wake up call for me but life has to go on.

I did have dreams all last night about her and about us fighting but working it out in the end and things being okay...and then I wake up to this decision needing to be made.


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## happy as a clam

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Our other home which is on the same street on the other side (and a couple homes down) is coming open the end of this month.
> 
> Financially I can sell it and split it and it would cover all of our current debts.
> 
> Focusing on the family, *one of us could move there and as awkward as it may be*, the kids are all basically together and the pick up/drop off is easy.


Still... I would advise you not to live in a house a few doors down from her. I don't think it would be healthy for you from a mental and healing standpoint. It may be "convenient" to live a few doors apart, but as you point out, it would likely be incredibly awkward (if/when either of you starts dating again). I also think it could be confusing for your kids.


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## farsidejunky

happy as a clam said:


> Still... I would advise you not to live in a house a few doors down from her. I don't think it would be healthy for you from a mental and healing standpoint. It may be "convenient" to live a few doors apart, but as you point out, it would likely be incredibly awkward (if/when either of you starts dating again). I also think it could be confusing for your kids.


I could not agree with this more. 

Still, do not allow the fear of losing time with your son to make a decision in the short term that will have huge long-term implications. 

Keep your eye on the long game as best as possible.


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## Blossom Leigh

Debts gone makes supporting the kids easier for both of you.

That said, I also understand the "close by" thinking

as well as that hampering your recovery

But the Lord....


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## jld

I thought it was really hard to get primary custody, that nearly everyone gets 50-50. 

I just don't want to see you setting yourself up for disappointment, Still.


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## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I thought it was really hard to get primary custody, that nearly everyone gets 50-50.
> 
> I just don't want to see you setting yourself up for disappointment, Still.


Depends on the state and county you are in and the judge. The judge in my county rarely grants 50-50. He even made it where one couple who insisted on 50-50 that the kids stayed in one home and the parents swapped locations.


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## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Depends on the state and county you are in and the judge. The judge in my county rarely grants 50-50. He even made it where one couple who insisted on 50-50 that the kids stayed in one home and the parents swapped locations.


Thanks for explaining.


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## Blossom Leigh

ButtPunch said:


> Depends on the state and county you are in and the judge. The judge in my county rarely grants 50-50. He even made it where one couple who insisted on 50-50 that the kids stayed in one home and the parents swapped locations.


LOL!!!! omg... I LOVE that idea!!!! It wasn't the kids who couldn't get their sh** together .. why should they have to move. Make the one's who can't keep their crap at bay pay the consequences of that failure. I have a new hero!!!


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## jld

I knew a couple who did that, mostly because it was cheaper to maintain one big residence for four kids, than to have two that could accommodate them.


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## karole

I have a friend who was awarded custody of his son. His son is older though, 12 years. The son wanted to live with the father, so the child's father petitioned the court. The court appointed a Guardian Ad Litem to represent the child. The GAL investigated and made a recommendation to the court that the child should live with the father. The court entered an order giving full custody to the father and visitation to the mother of every other weekend and she now pays child support. So, there are cases now where the fathers are awarded primary custody.


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## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> I knew a couple who did that, mostly because it was cheaper to maintain one big residence for four kids, than to have two that could accommodate them.


It's not that unusual, it's called bird nesting.


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## vellocet

jld said:


> I thought it was really hard to get primary custody, that nearly everyone gets 50-50.


50/50 happens usually when both parties agree. I'm sure there are exceptions, but if 2 parties are going for custody, then judges don't usually say, "Hmmm, no, I'm going to give you 50/50"

If the mother wants primary custody, giving the father his usual visitation rights, then she'll get it unless a judge deems her unfit.

I have joint custody. I tried for 50/50. Nope, wasn't going to happen. My attorney said if I wanted 50/50 or to be the custodial parent, I had to have some good dirt on my X, and no, infidelity didn't cut it.

Joint custody without 50/50 is a joke. All it does is give me a say, but if my X doesn't agree, she gets the final decision. Its just a feel good tactic by the one going for custody to make it look like they are being reasonable.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Even if the odds aren't in my favor (regarding custody) I am giving it whatever I have. 

It's all I can do. I've never been a quitter so watching the most important thing in my life fall apart for the reasons it has (the ones I had to do with, which I know aren't the only ones) kills me. 
Giving up my son, even half, is a fight worth fighting for. 
Living 2 doors down is an option for the same reason. I see the problems with it. Waiting to talk to my attorney. I completely understand the advice given this morning on that subject. It will likely sell.


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## Regretf

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Even if the odds aren't in my favor (regarding custody) I am giving it whatever I have.
> 
> It's all I can do. I've never been a quitter so watching the most important thing in my life fall apart for the reasons it has (the ones I had to do with, which I know aren't the only ones) kills me.
> Giving up my son, even half, is a fight worth fighting for.
> Living 2 doors down is an option for the same reason. I see the problems with it. Waiting to talk to my attorney. I completely understand the advice given this morning on that subject. It will likely sell.


You are in the same boat as me, i even believe my wife had an EA with a HS friend back when we separated in september and that was part of her emotional pull for wanting the separation to go thru, for some reason she stopped talking to this "friend" in early october, still her reasons for wanting to divorce me same as your wife are not unfixable but me same as you can't change their minds.

I know the feeling of having to let go of a big chunk of my son's time because my wife wants this divorce to go thru. Having to watch my family fall apart is like watching a slow train crash it kills me, but there's nothing i can do about it, same as you.

Fight it, at least in the US you can have 50/50 custody unlike my country where the mother always gets primary custody.

Do not make it easy for her, after all she hasn't done you any favours, she has made your life a living hell the last months, let her face the consequences of her actions now.


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## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Even if the odds aren't in my favor (regarding custody) I am giving it whatever I have.
> 
> It's all I can do. I've never been a quitter so watching the most important thing in my life fall apart for the reasons it has (the ones I had to do with, which I know aren't the only ones) kills me.
> Giving up my son, even half, is a fight worth fighting for.
> Living 2 doors down is an option for the same reason. I see the problems with it. Waiting to talk to my attorney. I completely understand the advice given this morning on that subject. It will likely sell.


Selling the second home is likely the best long term option. Even if she moves into the location its only going be to for the short term. Once a divorce would be final she could very well place it up for sale or move then the convenience of having the kids close is gone anyway. 

You have to look at all of the finances just like a business, taking the emotional end out of decisions is very hard but it is the best done that way. Often the good emotional decision in the short term seems ok but financial long term its not the best.


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## vellocet

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Even if the odds aren't in my favor (regarding custody) I am giving it whatever I have.


Do you have any dirt on your wife? Drug use? Alcoholism? Abuse of the children? Anything?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm sorry you're going through this too, Regret. I plan to stay get in touch with you offline. We do seem to have a lot in common and unfortunately I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I keep getting these flashbacks of happier moments...just out of the blue. Just a glimpse of a trip or a date night or just her out of the blue saying she loves me. Moments where we are giving our son a bath or she is peaking him over the corner at me when I'm in my office...but it is near the middle of the door so he looks taller...just crazy random good moments. It doesn't help...or maybe it does? I don't know. I just try to block them out and remember the last 6 months of lies.

My attorney today said not to sell either house and let him do his job...that I paid him a good amount of money and he can take it from here. He is known to be the best in the business for divorce and custody and has known me since I taught his kids martial arts 20 years ago. He knows the situation and watched it break down with me over the past couple of months. He feels he can handle it for me so that is where I am at. He told me not to worry too much or blame myself anymore.

The only real thing I have is her patterns of behavior and there is the incident that the local authorities were called on her for a parenting/disciplining issue with her youngest at the time. 

Splitting time with our son is like having a family with none of the benefits. No trust, no help, no comraderie or memory building except with my son, which is plenty but still sad because he was promised a family and the adults are the ones acting like kids.

Anyway, he is here now so I'm doing good. He wanted to stay in (he is 2 1/2) so we are playing trains and watching train videos and funny cat compilations


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## jld

My ds6 used to like watching _Busy Little Engine._


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## Catfish1986

If you son loves Trains try this video out...

It's part of There Goes a ..... Series

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwY6Ul_Yq-Y

My Kids would watch this over and over. Try it out.


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## Chaparral

I'm guessing your wife is playing the long game regarding her boyfriend. I suspect that's why she is still playing you.

Why is it again you haven't contacted his pastor? I hate seeing our posters played here yet refuse to take action that could truly benefit them. Its all well and good to go after custody with no advantage but the odds are long they will take your son away from his mother and sisters.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

One reason I haven't is that I just haven't taken the time to focus on that part. My days are mainly focused one rebuilding my company, my military career and spending time with my son while keeping up with divorce decisions. 

Another is that I do want to have it as leverage if I need it for now. If she wants to be a jerk I will subpoena him for his involvement and that in itself will expose them both. 

They are his half sisters (which may make a difference, may not) and also actually prove her pattern of behavior. It's like she does through this every 5 years and every 5 years has had another child brought into it. Still not trying to discredit her, just pointing out the obvious as it may relate to a deeper issue.

I see the good in her...I see the sucker in me for seeing the good in her. But Im not falling for it at this point. It just saddens me. But my focus is rebuilding my life while fighting for my son in the process. I do so much better when this little man is here.

I do think I will sell the other home unless my attorney strongly advises against it at this point.

I know someone can love me and my son and life can be ten times better.

I will check out the train video! Thanks!


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## Chaparral

Sorry, I didn't realize you had given up on reconcilliation and were moving on.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

It isn't that I've given up, per se. If she came to me and said she wants to work it out, I would hear her out and see where she was headed with it. But I can't assume R when she seems like she is set on D because it will leave me less prepared. And less prepared will affect the custody status and who knows what else.


----------



## Chaparral

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> It isn't that I've given up, per se. If she came to me and said she wants to work it out, I would hear her out and see where she was headed with it. But I can't assume R when she seems like she is set on D because it will leave me less prepared. And less prepared will affect the custody status and who knows what else.


There is no hope of reconciliation as long as the other man is still in the picture. You didn't expose him. After all the dust clears he will be your sons step dad. It happens all the time here. Then you will come back and say how much you wish you had taken our advice. Deja vu all over again.

The silver lining is that by inaction you will be getting rid of a cheater.


----------



## Regretf

Chaparral said:


> There is no hope of reconciliation as long as the other man is still in the picture. You didn't expose him. After all the dust clears he will be your sons step dad. It happens all the time here. Then you will come back and say how much you wish you had taken our advice. Deja vu all over again.
> 
> The silver lining is that by inaction you will be getting rid of a cheater.


I agree, expose him and her. He doesn't have to end up being your son's stepdad, not that they will make it. Fight for your son's custody, fight it 'till the end.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I went in today to sign paperwork on the parenting plan and the counter petition. I have some work to do on the parenting plan. I want him home with me every night...she works nights anyway. But she would still have him two nights a week. But then I got to looking at it and she'd also have him during the day and it basically leaves me with him long enough to let him wind down before sleeping then getting him up to take him back to his moms. That isn't going to work either. 

It was frustrating this morning...he went to work with me and we had a really good day but getting him up this morning I just kept thinking "this could be a really nice morning...she could get him up and around, I go wake up the girls...my son goes to work with me and life is good." It's still good, but it was just so quiet. I get him up and around just fine but I can't forget anything because there is no one there to remind me. Case in point, we got there, and I didn't have any diapers in his bag. A client of mine went and picked some up for me.

The little "taken-for-granted" family moments...they aren't there. Anyway, I think that is a little "single dad" experience coming out.

The one thing that happened, that I know most won't agree with, but I want to make note of for the sake of chronicling everything on here...when I was filling out the counter petition (basically just signing off on the one they made for me), there was a line in there about how I believe that the marriage is irreparably broken. It was longer than that, and it was standard template stuff for divorce paperwork. It was the same sentence she had in her paperwork. But every time I read, I would think to myself, "but I still don't think that."

I asked the paralegal if she could just leave that part out...neither confirm nor deny it, just leave it out. She said she couldn't. That if I didn't put it in there, the judge would legally separate us but not divorce us. We could divorce later and that it is usually meant for time to do counseling. 

I know she feels that way...or did (still does but she was a lot more angry when she filed at the time)...and I know it is kicking the can down the road...but it still remains true that I don't truly feel it is irreparably broken.

It isn't that I'm hoping we still work out...I don't sit at home and think of ways to win her back. I don't. I also don't hurt like I used to...I still can for sure, but it isn't as extreme...my "middle ground" is more common these days and I'm thankful for that.

That sentence just stuck out to me. Stuck out at me. I didn't sign off on it.

I have until next week to come up with a better parenting plan. I'm still going for primary custody. 

I don't feel this is me being weak. Heck, my business is getting lined out... I just progressed in rank in the military, I found out today. I have friends to talk with when I need to and family that cares. I'm really in pretty good shape and getting better. I can tell I can swing a date if I wanted to. I still don't talk to any females. This is just something, at this point, I didn't feel a peace about signing.

I did get to see the girls for a few minutes today. That was good. They both miss me. When I was leaving my son started to cry for me, the youngest girl said "He always does that for you when you leave." 

I have him all weekend so I am looking forward to that for sure.


----------



## honcho

Almost all of the papers initially say irreconcilable differences or broken. It burnt my butt when I read it the first time too. I didn't feel that way, that it could be fixed.

They have to put something in the paperwork and not lay blame on anyone so you get the great generality that covers everything. That's all it means. I understand it bothers you to see it in black and white and it did me also but it does mean nothing really.


----------



## Regretf

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I went in today to sign paperwork on the parenting plan and the counter petition. I have some work to do on the parenting plan. I want him home with me every night...she works nights anyway. But she would still have him two nights a week. But then I got to looking at it and she'd also have him during the day and it basically leaves me with him long enough to let him wind down before sleeping then getting him up to take him back to his moms. That isn't going to work either.
> 
> It was frustrating this morning...he went to work with me and we had a really good day but getting him up this morning I just kept thinking "this could be a really nice morning...she could get him up and around, I go wake up the girls...my son goes to work with me and life is good." It's still good, but it was just so quiet. I get him up and around just fine but I can't forget anything because there is no one there to remind me. Case in point, we got there, and I didn't have any diapers in his bag. A client of mine went and picked some up for me.
> 
> The little "taken-for-granted" family moments...they aren't there. Anyway, I think that is a little "single dad" experience coming out.
> 
> The one thing that happened, that I know most won't agree with, but I want to make note of for the sake of chronicling everything on here...when I was filling out the counter petition (basically just signing off on the one they made for me), there was a line in there about how I believe that the marriage is irreparably broken. It was longer than that, and it was standard template stuff for divorce paperwork. It was the same sentence she had in her paperwork. But every time I read, I would think to myself, "but I still don't think that."
> 
> I asked the paralegal if she could just leave that part out...neither confirm nor deny it, just leave it out. She said she couldn't. That if I didn't put it in there, the judge would legally separate us but not divorce us. We could divorce later and that it is usually meant for time to do counseling.
> 
> I know she feels that way...or did (still does but she was a lot more angry when she filed at the time)...and I know it is kicking the can down the road...but it still remains true that I don't truly feel it is irreparably broken.
> 
> It isn't that I'm hoping we still work out...I don't sit at home and think of ways to win her back. I don't. I also don't hurt like I used to...I still can for sure, but it isn't as extreme...my "middle ground" is more common these days and I'm thankful for that.
> 
> That sentence just stuck out to me. Stuck out at me. I didn't sign off on it.
> 
> I have until next week to come up with a better parenting plan. I'm still going for primary custody.
> 
> I don't feel this is me being weak. Heck, my business is getting lined out... I just progressed in rank in the military, I found out today. I have friends to talk with when I need to and family that cares. I'm really in pretty good shape and getting better. I can tell I can swing a date if I wanted to. I still don't talk to any females. This is just something, at this point, I didn't feel a peace about signing.
> 
> I did get to see the girls for a few minutes today. That was good. They both miss me. When I was leaving my son started to cry for me, the youngest girl said "He always does that for you when you leave."
> 
> I have him all weekend so I am looking forward to that for sure.


Well i did sign the parenting plan and pension for my son papers yesterday and it was weird as well, specially the header that said:

My name Vs wife's name.

I got thinking, jesus, how did we get here, not so long ago we were doing OK (or so i thought) to get from having problems to divorce, it just puzzles me.

How old is your son?

At least you will get primary custody that's good, in my country mothers unless proven unfit get primary custody and dads are stuck with one day a week for a few hours and every other weekned. It sucks, to have to miss out on so much of my son's everyday life because my wife wants the D and is not willing to at least give it a try.

Hang in there man, God has a plan for all of us.


----------



## farsidejunky

It's been a couple of days, hopeful. How are you holding up?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I've had my son this weekend. We are doing really good. After Thursday morning when I had taken him to work and had been irritated about how our family now consists of just him and I, things got better over the weekend so I don't think about it as often. I can enjoy him with my family more...I don't sit around and see my wife and girls not there with us, like I used to.

Today we went to the martial arts school so I could teach and he could watch and play with his trains, then met one of his cousins for lunch. The 3 of us went and bought a fish...a beta...figured we'd try one and see how it goes. Then went to feed fish and a nearby park. From there we went to a birthday party for another cousin and then to the bigger city to the bookstore there where we got a couple books and a new little train. All in all it was a really good day.

I realized my parenting plan was actually giving more time to her than to myself because I'd have him most every night but not until later in the evening...which meant I got him basically long enough to get him to bed then get him up and back over to his moms.

I'm going to start working from home two days a week so I can have him during the days and that will put me back on track for primary custody AND quality time if it all works out.

Also, I've been getting more irritated when I look back on any of the good moments in the past 7-8 months and keep realizing that the OM had already always been there.

Going to a new church tomorrow. The one where the counselor we initially saw, preaches at. It's where my brother and his cousins go so that should be good.

It's crazy how complicated she is making all of our lives for the sake of, I guess, her own sanity and happiness. Crazy and sad.

But there is a lot of that out there...craziness and sadness.

I'm thankful mine isn't worse than it is.


----------



## farsidejunky

The new church is a good idea.

Keep focusing on your son and working through your feelings. 

You are doing well, brother.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I can be anywhere and be completely fine, then a thought just pops up out of nowhere I can be in tears.

I was texting a friend about something, my friend first but then a mutual friend once I got married. I said "let's get together soon" and bam, right here in the gym. I haven't told him about what was going on. It was in the paper so most know something so it's known, 

Went to church, the new one, dropped of my son at the nursery and walking away I broke down again.

I'm sure it's normal but I have to have better control than that in public.


----------



## turnera

Why? Don't worry about showing your feelings. You deserve it.


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## honcho

Your emotions are going to hit you when you least expect it. It is a normal part of the process and in time it gets better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regretf

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I've had my son this weekend. We are doing really good. After Thursday morning when I had taken him to work and had been irritated about how our family now consists of just him and I, things got better over the weekend so I don't think about it as often. I can enjoy him with my family more...I don't sit around and see my wife and girls not there with us, like I used to.
> 
> Today we went to the martial arts school so I could teach and he could watch and play with his trains, then met one of his cousins for lunch. The 3 of us went and bought a fish...a beta...figured we'd try one and see how it goes. Then went to feed fish and a nearby park. From there we went to a birthday party for another cousin and then to the bigger city to the bookstore there where we got a couple books and a new little train. All in all it was a really good day.
> 
> I realized my parenting plan was actually giving more time to her than to myself because I'd have him most every night but not until later in the evening...which meant I got him basically long enough to get him to bed then get him up and back over to his moms.
> 
> I'm going to start working from home two days a week so I can have him during the days and that will put me back on track for primary custody AND quality time if it all works out.
> 
> Also, I've been getting more irritated when I look back on any of the good moments in the past 7-8 months and keep realizing that the OM had already always been there.
> 
> Going to a new church tomorrow. The one where the counselor we initially saw, preaches at. It's where my brother and his cousins go so that should be good.
> 
> It's crazy how complicated she is making all of our lives for the sake of, I guess, her own sanity and happiness. Crazy and sad.
> 
> But there is a lot of that out there...craziness and sadness.
> 
> I'm thankful mine isn't worse than it is.



It's normal, is till break down and cry every other day, not in public, but mostly in the car or somewhere private.

Most people in the world are selfish and put their own feelings/thoughts first and foremost, which is normal i guess, but breaking up a family?, i Don't know, to me divorce should be the last resource when everything else has been tried and nothing Works. A lot of people treat marriages nowadays like some piece of fourniture, once it doesn't appeal to me, throw it away.

Funny thing is that a lot of people think getting divorce will bring them happiness and sanity, and in some cases that is true, but in others, holding on, waiting, putting real effort can and will go a long way, it's just that once someone's heart isn't in it, it is very hard to make it work.

I do think your wife will regret it in the long run.


----------



## Regretf

tdwal said:


> You know it bugs me when people say I think she will regret it in the long run. What does that matter, the relationship will have been destroyed by then. Does it make the OP feel better that she will end up regretting it when all said and done. I don't think so in fact it causes the OP to want to cling and not move on.


I agree with what you're saying but my point was to make him understand that she is indeed making a mistake and sadly there's nothing he can do right now. Live his own life and be strong for the sake of his child.


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## alphaomega

That's a lot of pages......

Right off the bat, I was frustrated on the religious slant your wife may be using to justify her behavior and avoid making her own hard decisions.


"Jesus? As long as you give me everything I want...I love you."

That's lazy thinking.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm reading a book about winning custody... "Winningcustody.com" fyi.

So now I'm trying to get more organized. I am having to print off all the photos of the letters I took when I found the stash. Some I've read before, some I haven't. I crop one and read a bit of it and every time I just end up saying "B1tch" out loud when I see how happy she was writing him and how sad she was missing him and how the whole time I was sitting here praying and trying to figure things out. And I am not a cussing man. She was also praising how good he was...I lost that slot after we got married it is evident. I am going to find some of my old letters from her though because some seem almost mirror image to some of the comments she wrote to him.

I am going to go to his pastor. I'm considering emailing him and asking if my wife is contacting him still. Why? I really don't know. It will put that bit of fear in him again perhaps. I still doubt it will compare to my hurt or my son's lack of understanding. 

When she picked him up this morning, I followed her out to go to my truck. He was facing me and just kept his eyes locked completely on mine. I noticed the stare after about 3 seconds and kept the eye contact. He was just there, looking me in the eyes. I'll never forget that moment. Once she put him in the vehicle and he realized I wasn't coming he began crying for me. I got him situated and gave him a kiss. I began to shut the door and he started crying again. It made me so mad at her.

She texted me last night about getting him this morning and she is no better to get along with now than before. I am now trying not to hate her. Who is this person???

I want to use this guy to my advantage in court if at all possible. This is still just unreal.

Unreal.

I wish she could be a walk away mom like she is a walk away wife and just let us live our lives without her. In her defense, my son was happy to see her, but he didn't go running to her, he just stayed there on my lap and said "momma back?"

I know a lot of people don't think I will get as far as I want re: custody, but I am sure going to give it everything I have. She can tell the world the most embarrassing or bad thing she feels I have done. I've nothing to hide that doesn't have explanation and most people, I think, would say "that's what he did? that's what this is all about?" 

I still pray for her heart and mind...and mine. I am getting more tired of things. These letters...ugh, these letters.

One day I will meet a beautiful (to me) and realistic woman that understands happiness is as much within her as it is my desire for her and will love my son. He is so easy to love, he will probably help my cause.


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## farsidejunky

Good, brother. You need to meet with his pastor. You need a bit of anger; it will give you some edge.

Do what is right. Everything will be as it should.


----------



## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I'm reading a book about winning custody... "Winningcustody.com" fyi.
> 
> So now I'm trying to get more organized. I am having to print off all the photos of the letters I took when I found the stash. Some I've read before, some I haven't. I crop one and read a bit of it and every time I just end up saying "B1tch" out loud when I see how happy she was writing him and how sad she was missing him and how the whole time I was sitting here praying and trying to figure things out. And I am not a cussing man. She was also praising how good he was...I lost that slot after we got married it is evident. I am going to find some of my old letters from her though because some seem almost mirror image to some of the comments she wrote to him.
> 
> I am going to go to his pastor. I'm considering emailing him and asking if my wife is contacting him still. Why? I really don't know. It will put that bit of fear in him again perhaps. I still doubt it will compare to my hurt or my son's lack of understanding.
> 
> When she picked him up this morning, I followed her out to go to my truck. He was facing me and just kept his eyes locked completely on mine. I noticed the stare after about 3 seconds and kept the eye contact. He was just there, looking me in the eyes. I'll never forget that moment. Once she put him in the vehicle and he realized I wasn't coming he began crying for me. I got him situated and gave him a kiss. I began to shut the door and he started crying again. It made me so mad at her.
> 
> She texted me last night about getting him this morning and she is no better to get along with now than before. I am now trying not to hate her. Who is this person???
> 
> I want to use this guy to my advantage in court if at all possible. This is still just unreal.
> 
> Unreal.
> 
> I wish she could be a walk away mom like she is a walk away wife and just let us live our lives without her. In her defense, my son was happy to see her, but he didn't go running to her, he just stayed there on my lap and said "momma back?"
> 
> I know a lot of people don't think I will get as far as I want re: custody, but I am sure going to give it everything I have. She can tell the world the most embarrassing or bad thing she feels I have done. I've nothing to hide that doesn't have explanation and most people, I think, would say "that's what he did? that's what this is all about?"
> 
> I still pray for her heart and mind...and mine. I am getting more tired of things. These letters...ugh, these letters.
> 
> One day I will meet a beautiful (to me) and realistic woman that understands happiness is as much within her as it is my desire for her and will love my son. He is so easy to love, he will probably help my cause.


Don't sit and re-read the letters or look for your old ones to compare them. It will just drive you nuts and hurting yourself more. 

Having been down the road of nothing to hide don't underestimate her "creating" storylines. She doesn't want to be judged and needs the "bad guy" and this isn't unusual.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Honcho, you're right on that one. I've had to go back through old photos and videos and letters to start building my case. But puts me back in those moments. Some really great moments. To the point that "now" doesn't feel as real and I wish it weren't.

I'm missing her more today. Reflecting on my own mistakes and seeing the tender heart that I wasn't the most tender to. Never intentionally, and she wasn't perfect either, but today i miss her.

Dropped my son off this morning. He was fine seeing her and his sisters but certainly didn't want me to go. I hated that. 

It will get better. It is just one of those days. 

Heck, if I'd have found some of those videos earlier, I'd have never looked online! . Nothing too crazy...but pretty great for sure. just my beautiful wife and best friend at the time. I miss that woman.


----------



## Regretf

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Honcho, you're right on that one. I've had to go back through old photos and videos and letters to start building my case. But puts me back in those moments. Some really great moments. To the point that "now" doesn't feel as real and I wish it weren't.
> 
> I'm missing her more today. Reflecting on my own mistakes and seeing the tender heart that I wasn't the most tender to. Never intentionally, and she wasn't perfect either, but today i miss her.
> 
> Dropped my son off this morning. He was fine seeing her and his sisters but certainly didn't want me to go. I hated that.
> 
> It will get better. It is just one of those days.
> 
> Heck, if I'd have found some of those videos earlier, I'd have never looked online! . Nothing too crazy...but pretty great for sure. just my beautiful wife and best friend at the time. I miss that woman.


I know the feeling man. Nothing we can do about it. That person that she was is no longer there, that feeling that she had for you back then is no longer there, sad but true.

Keep building your case. 

And yeah your mistakes to me were not responsable for the divorce, those mistakes you call them were not big/strong enough for her to did what she did.


----------



## honcho

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Honcho, you're right on that one. I've had to go back through old photos and videos and letters to start building my case. But puts me back in those moments. Some really great moments. To the point that "now" doesn't feel as real and I wish it weren't.
> 
> I'm missing her more today. Reflecting on my own mistakes and seeing the tender heart that I wasn't the most tender to. Never intentionally, and she wasn't perfect either, but today i miss her.
> 
> Dropped my son off this morning. He was fine seeing her and his sisters but certainly didn't want me to go. I hated that.
> 
> It will get better. It is just one of those days.
> 
> Heck, if I'd have found some of those videos earlier, I'd have never looked online! . Nothing too crazy...but pretty great for sure. just my beautiful wife and best friend at the time. I miss that woman.


Take it from someone who had his whole divorce/asset division figured all out right away. I threw myself into that in the beginning, it gave me a project. It also gave me an excuse to not deal with my own hurt. 

Divorce is very much a hurry up and wait game. Its incredibly frustrating. Anyway make sure to take the time to work on yourself. Allow yourself the time to deal with your own emotions. Your allowed to have "one of those days". Its perfectly nature and we have all had them.


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## Chaparral

Still, did you ever read the two books linked to below? Did they affect your thinking at all?


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## jld

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Honcho, you're right on that one. I've had to go back through old photos and videos and letters to start building my case. But puts me back in those moments. Some really great moments. To the point that "now" doesn't feel as real and I wish it weren't.
> 
> I'm missing her more today. *Reflecting on my own mistakes and seeing the tender heart that I wasn't the most tender to. Never intentionally, and she wasn't perfect either, but today i miss her.*
> 
> Dropped my son off this morning. He was fine seeing her and his sisters but certainly didn't want me to go. I hated that.
> 
> It will get better. It is just one of those days.
> 
> *Heck, if I'd have found some of those videos earlier, I'd have never looked online! . Nothing too crazy...but pretty great for sure. just my beautiful wife and best friend at the time. I miss that woman*.


I know you're hurting right now and you're angry, but the bolded also shows me that you're mature and self-aware. It takes courage to look at how you could have done things differently. It can also be a way to avoid those mistakes in the future.

Still, my dad died 8 years ago. I had not spoken to him nor seen him for 4 or so years before he died. I was afraid of him growing up, and was even afraid of him after he died, if you can believe that. About eight months after he died, the fear started to lift.

But this last year on TAM has made me reflect a lot on my dad and his life. It's helped me see him through different lenses. I feel a lot more understanding towards him and a lot less angry. 

Do you remember when I talked to you about active listening? I learned about it a few years before I stopped talking to my dad. At that time I was only using it with my husband and my kids, not much with other people. I think if I had had longer to practice, it might have been helpful to me with my father. I think he would have reacted well to the feeling of understanding and respect active listening gives.

Well, he's dead now, no chance to try to repair things. But I did learn from him how to not be with my own children. 

I hope the pain you are going through now will eventually lighten, and be replaced by understanding. And I hope you will eventually feel empowered by the mistakes you made, and not burdened by them. It's really all any of us can do with the lessons from the past.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Chap - I have read both of them. I stopped a little short in MMSLP. Around of 289...all the tips abourbot dating your wife and such. It was hard to read through. Otherwise, yes. And have recommended both to friends.

JLD - I actually found myself doing active listening this weekend with a couple friends. I am trying to implement it more often. Thank you for the advice.

I'm currently working on my custody case. Things haven't been too bad this weekend. Thankful for my friends...and my wife is at least cordial...but she also needed my help so i didn't look into it too deep.
The girls came inside last night. They really liked what I did to the house and were quick with hugs. I miss them.

My son doesn't like leaving me. The youngest girl said he asks for me a lot. 

I am 35 pages deep into a document I'm preparing on my behalf entitled "My Case for My Son."

It starts with a description of my wife's actions I found on the website entitled womensinfidelity.com. I've read some pretty close descriptions but nothing like that one. I did a copy/paste and then use it to correlate it's examples to her actions. 

Also added the last 3 months of FB posts/pics that had anything to do with our kids from both our pages. And the stats of how many of our posts were related to parenting or our children vs anything else.
The point is to be one example (of many) that show how much both of us focus on our kids and what the focus relates to...compliments, complaints, etc.

Then I'm using old emails from us and the letters to OM to show the pattern of behavior that further should help prove il every bit as good and responsible parent as she is. Or better.

The truth is, I hate that I'm even doing this. But this is a game-face activity. I'm not doing it to discredit her but to better credential myself. There is a definite difference regarding my intentions behind it but she will never see that. She will only see the case I've built against her...or for me. 

It isn't that I don't love her but she made this choice. I've been fighting to keep my marriage to little avail. Fighting for my son is a completely different focus now and she has basically forced my hand in this.

It's a different kind of determination. I regret where we are but because of what may rely on this phase of the divorce, I don't regret what I'm having to do. If it helps, it is worth it. 

It is also the truth and backed up by photos, texts, stats and emails.

Such a crazy place to be in my life right now. Showing how much she loved me to show how similar it is to her loving someone else so that I can gain as much custody of our son as possible...because of a divorce I don't want that goes against what we both believe. 
:-/


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## jld

I am so sorry you are in this situation, still. And I am sorry you can't see the girls more. No chance they could come for visits with your son?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I hope so at some point. I'm really glad they came inside last time they were here. I imagine it had to be a bit hard on them when they went downstairs to see our dog and also saw the emptiness of where their rooms were and the downstairs living room they had spent a lot of time in.

I'm having lunch with our/her pastor this week. It will be after she learns of my response to her parenting plan. I had cancelled in times past because she was talking with him and I wanted to respect her potential confidence/safety/trust in that relationship. 

He asked if we were still going to meet this time and I told him yes. I think we'd be pretty good friends outside of church and that's why we are meeting...we just legimately like each other as people. I don't know whether to give her a heads up or not. She will obviously know either way with the size of our town. From the 180 perspective, what I do is my business and that is the direction Im headed.


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## karole

I admire your strength and determination Still. I bet your wife expects you to bend to her demands - she most likely isn't expecting a custody battle out of you. Continue to fight for your son. Get all the time with him you can. I know the court system usually favors the mother, but slowly it is changing so that the father gets more consideration. You have no reason to feel bad about what you are doing. You are only protecting and thinking of your son. Best of luck to you and you will continue to be in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Thank you. 
I know she expects me to challenge her initial request but has no idea how much. I'm planning to work from home two days a week so I can have him more.

I do hear that the mother usually gets the child but as I see it, if men can marry men and women can marry women then the kids involved miss out on the one not present in that situation and the courts allow it. So the other stereotypes, like the mom always getting the kids, need to be done away with too.

I'm every bit as good of a dad and I'd say to some degree better, because I'm not trying to split up my family to pursue my own happiness. 

I still hate that it is even this way but it is. My chances are as good as anyone's and I love my son more than anything so thank you for the prayers. Maybe this might be an inspiration to other men. Kids need their dads. They need both...and the less selfish of the two.


----------



## karole

How are you doing Still?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Things are going okay. I just noticed the post, Karole. I wanted to come on and update so thank you for checking on me.

In general, I'm moving forward. I still pray for her. Pray for my family. I still often wake up wondering why things are the way they are but it doesn't hurt as much. 

We had a little argument last week. I received one of her swimsuit/lingerie sales magazines in the mail and looking inside of it literally made me both sick and irritated. The first thoughts were of how she hadn't been thinking of me when she had been looking through them the last 6 months and it was a relatively new magazine, she hadn't received a lot of them so maybe all had been with thoughts of the other guy.

When I saw her the next day or so, I told her they needed to be addressed to her house, I didn't want to see them here anymore. I hadn't been too upset about much until that, that just irritated me and I let it show. She said she only wore that stuff for me and had only bought a swimsuit in it. Then slammed the door on her way out (in a nutshell). 

I came across the song "Your Gonna Go Far, Kid" by Offspring and it spoke to me. I've had it on loop at the gym the past few times and sometimes when cleaning the house.

That's been the "anger" part.

Here is the other side.

Her birthday was a couple days ago.

The day before her birthday, she came to pick up my son. I needed her help to get him ready so I could load some things in my truck and not be late. So she did that and as she was getting him in and turning around, I was passing by to go around her...I had no intention (or even desire) but as I passed her I ended up hugging her. She hugged me back after a couple seconds. The thing that got my attention about it was that it reminded me so much of my son, playing with two of his trains and looking at them while taking them and putting them closer together until they "clicked" and stuck together. Don't ask me why but that was the image that immediately came to me. I didn't say anything after the hug except good bye or something. It took me by about as much surprise as it had taken her.

She sent me a text shortly afterwards that wasn't much about anything but had a smiley face on it. I replied something similar and left it at that.

That evening she posted this thing on FB about husbands protecting their wives and their hearts...I clicked on it and it talked about how wives need to be looked after at times...checked on regarding their physical, spiritual and emotional needs (it was on Pinterest). I read it. Since I'm her husband, I finally left a comment that said "Hope you're doing okay! Love you! Call me if you need anything." I had considered posting a photo of the flyer I had from the church I went to when I confronted the other guy and leave a comment that said, "Did that. And, we have ADT, a dog, health and life insurance and retirement...I'm not perfect, but I'm trying" in reference to her "protect your wives" comment. But I didn't. I felt like I needed to respond somehow. I also wondered why she chose now to post anything about that. 

I halfway expected her to block me or delete it, but she didn't.

So the next day was her birthday. I hadn't planned on getting her anything but it also isn't like me to not get her at least something. 

She had asked me order supplements we both use for her and a friend, that she would pay me for them. I had ordered them, they came in and near the end of the day I decided to get some flowers for her and the kids, put them in the box with supplements and give her the box as if it hadn't been opened yet.

So I did that. I was going to drop the box off and not knock so I wouldn't get my son's attention.

I went by, her garage door was open. I went in there and was setting the box down when our middle girl (my stepdaughter) opened the door. She was right behind her. I scared her, about gave her a stroke because she opens the door and I'm bent forward looking up at her as I'm placing the box on the step.

At that point my son saw me and I'm trying to explain I was just dropping the box off while she is trying to get all the kids in the vehicle for a basketball practice. It made for a bit of chaos. I tried to get my son in his seat and he just cried for me. The youngest girl was watching me and I could see that so I took the moment to quietly tell her I loved her (mouthed the words) and smiled at her...I hadn't told her since everything happened. The oldest daughter watched my son cry and just seemed uncomfortable and sad but I asked how she was doing and she said she was fine.

Still, that didn't go at all how I expected but I didn't text her or anything. As she left I told her "Happy Birthday"...her window was rolled up and she rolled it down and said "what did you say?" like I just called her a name...I told her "happy birthday" and she said, "oh, thank you" and we parted ways.

That night I met with a friend and against his advice, and most everyone's on here I'm guessing...I posted on her FB a message that said, "Happy Birthday! I love you. Listen" and added the John Legend video "All of You" which seemed to fit perfectly. Just heard it a couple days ago.

Again, I expected her to delete it quickly or block me. She didn't. A number of our friends clicked "like" on it.

Yesterday she texted thanking me for the flowers. We both texted back laughing a bit about how much I had scared her when she opened the door.

Later yesterday when she was dropping off my son, I told her I needed a favor and asked the she bring my son and hopefully the girls to my promotion ceremony this weekend. She was amicable about it and agreed.

Tonight, when I came to pick him up again, she invited me in if I had time to have dinner. They already ate, it was one of our favorite family meals. I told her I was fine but that it sounded good and she asked again so I stayed and ate quick. Talked with the girls a bit. It isn't like she made it for me, but it was better than what I would have had since I was in a hurry.

So, that is what has happened. I also went in to sign more paperwork for my attorney.

I still haven't been talking to any girls. She still gets pretty cold pretty quick. I'm now about 60 pages deep into my case for my son that I have been working on.

Both of our homes are now on the market. If I can sell the smaller one, the one with equity in it, I will probably stay in this one. We only use the top floor but I can make the payment, pay this one down more and not have to find another place to rent which wouldn't be a lot less than this payment.

She may change that. I still don't know what she wants as far as property goes. This is the only home purchased while we've been married.

I need to sell the small one so we can both be out of debt. I figure if it sells before much more on the divorce is done, I can use the money how I want and I will pay off both of our debts first before we look at splitting whatever is left.

Kind of a long post, but I think I covered most of it.

Realizing that I am going to be okay has helped me not be so tied to her every move.

This is my take on things at this point...I still feel I shouldn't divorce her. That is just the overall feeling I have inside and when I consider it from my faith's perspective. I don't always feel that way but mostly I do.

I also no longer really agree with the idea of acting like I'm someone I'm not (like I don't care about her) to try to get her to like me again, knowing that I will go back to being the guy she apparently didn't want anymore.

I figure, if she continues with the divorce, she can, but she will always know I didn't agree with it and that I did love her. Once the divorce is done, I'm done. I know I can be happy with someone else if the time comes. 

I no longer consider myself weak. I don't initiate much conversation with her but when we do, I try to keep it light and amicable...I don't act needy or try to get her back. I guess I'm just more confident either way it goes down now. It helps.

I still have my moments. But I have good friends and family and my son are very close and that all helps a lot.


----------



## Chaparral

Have you asked to see or speak with your stepndaughters?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I have seen them a bit more lately. One is coming to my promotion ceremony tomorrow. The other was going to come but is going to a last minute birthday party for her cousin/best friend.


----------



## farsidejunky

Gratz on the promotion brother.

How are you holding up?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

It's been hard. 
Different reasons.

The promotion went well. She came, brought 2 of our kids. Helpful and social. That almost made it worse. Well, it did make it worse. Reminded me of how good things used to be, which made me want it back. She texted a story about my son a couple days later, another positive sign since that is such a rarity.

I haven't given up hope...mainly because I can't. Something continues to tell me to fight for it. To love her through it.

I'd like to think it is because in the end, it will work out. I do believe that in the end, good will come from it. She may pursue the divorce I'm well aware. But she will know every step of the way that I didn't want it and that I love her and our family.

It may sound weak, but it is the hardest thing I can ever recall doing. It takes everything I have to keep my head up at times. To fight back the swell of despair and fatigue. She will likely never know it, never appreciate what not giving up on someone feels like. Particularly when 90% of the signs you get back in return is that they have given up on you.

It would be so much easier to meet another woman and just talk and get to know them. But I don't. That is what she did. "Innocently enough" and it worked for her...sidetracking her from whatever problems we had in our marriage.

But I don't quit. My faith doesn't let me. Crazy thing is, we have the same faith and she hasn't changed much. She leaves for her mission trip this week. Oddly enough, I'm kind of glad she is going...one, it gives me the whole week with my son, and two, it doesn't make a lot of sense still...that she would leave the family that she just broke up literally about a month ago, to go to another country to spread the Word and His love. It kind of reassures me that it is just as much her as it is the "me" that apparently led to all of this.

I did feel a little bad yesterday...things were a little better until yesterday. I posted my thoughts on forgiveness on FB. It was well received and had been on my heart for weeks now. It wasn't mean or directed at her but she deactivated her account again that same day. My pastor liked it and a lot of others did, too. Part of me regrets it because anything I do that I feel like hinders any progress, obviously I don't want to do that. But that wasn't my intention in posting it. I want to learn from what I'm going through and if anyone else can learn from it, maybe it is a good thing.

I gave her a Valentine's Day card today...and a hug...it went okay. She was going to our oldest daughters b-ball game tonight...a bit dressed up. It did make me wonder if she was going to see this other guy tonight. That still gets to me at times.

I emailed the guy. First contact I've attempted since the 28th when he agreed to no contact. It's been a hard night and that was the one thing I ended up doing in response.

For the most part, I do better. I really do. But when it hits me, it still hurts a lot the same.

I came across more videos, working on my case against her, which I haven't done as much of lately. I think it works against me because I watch these videos...some are so great...so it softens my imagination of today's reality. She isn't watching them so nothing is changing for her.

Business is going okay...I'm basically broke at this point...worse because I'm in debt. 

I think my dog is even depressed.

But I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. 

Selling the rental house will fix a lot of our debt. Getting my billing for the company will put me back in good standing...but that is a mess in itself that I consistently work on.

My son still cries for me whenever I leave him with her. Than never gets easier.

Our girls are usually there and see him cry which can't be easy on them. I pray that the day may come when they will look back on those horrible moments and re-think their decision if they are considering ending their family for greener pastures.

I believe God can heal this. I just do. I also understand that for a lot of people it doesn't happen.

I don't necessarily show love because I love her...I do, but not because I feel love towards her at that moment...often I am fighting back hurt, anger or frustration. I show her love because she is my wife. I show her love because I am to love her as Christ loved the church, and we all know that the church isn't always the most lovable or the most faithful to Christ.

I also love her and fight for this marriage because I have to know that in the end, however it ends, I did my best. I don't want to have to look back and think "I didn't even give her a card on Valentine's Day..." and wonder if I had shown her love like I am called to, if it would have worked out differently. I do regret the things I've done that played a role in all of this. I think they legitimately hurt her but that they don't, in themselves, justify everything.

If she can never question my attempts to heal us and love her, then when it is over, I will be able to move on with more clarity myself and not look back and wonder.

I know it goes against a lot of today's advice, and I understand today's advice...but I do think that if I have to act like someone else in order to get her back, I'll have to act like that more often or face her leaving me again when I go back to who I am. So I'd rather her leave me for who I am, because for the most part, I like me and if I do, someone else will. Lord willing.


----------



## turnera

I'm all for waiting for your marriage. I'd just like to see a little more thought put into it, instead of just...waiting for her to realize she wants you.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I put this all out there for others to learn from and for my own recollection in the future. If I only post the things I did that went well or that I don't think will receive much criticism, then anyone else looking to learn from this won't get the whole story.

I am working out, by the way. I am focusing on my business and my son. The promotion and Valentine's Day changed my focus a bit more over the last two weeks. Prior to that, I think I had been doing a little better than I am now. 

One required more interaction and the other...isn't good to ignore.

I do regret a bit the FB post. And I hate how I feel when I think that other guy may still be in the picture to some degree...any degree.

But all I can do is the best I can do.

I have learned from NNMRG and MMSLP and implement as much as I can without losing myself or doing anything I wouldn't want her doing right now...whether she is doing it or not.

I believe that if I do my best, and love her through this...not beg her through this or whine my way back in...but if I show love, when all is said and done, I'll enjoy my next relationship a lot more knowing that I did my best. I can look my son, and my wife, in the eye (or if she is my ex at that point) and have no regrets aside from the faults I've taken responsibility for a long time ago.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Hi Tunera,
I was typing and didn't see your response until I posted. 
I feel like I think about it a lot...everything I do I think about. Doesn't mean I get it right. But I try to consider it before I do it.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Hi Tunera,
> I was typing and didn't see your response until I posted.
> I feel like I think about it a lot...everything I do I think about. Doesn't mean I get it right. But I try to consider it before I do it.


Still, I don't want to bring you down, but what you're doing has been tried many times before and it almost never works. You should spend some time reading in CWI. There are people there that have recovered their marriages and there are people there that tried what you're doing and failed. I can't think of a single one that tried what you're doing and succeeded over the long term. 

Being nice to her hoping to attract her back has the opposite effect. Instead of seeing you being nice and saying "hey, what am I doing, that's the guy for me" she sees you being nice and says "look at that wimp, I ripped his heart out and he's still crawling after me like a puppy dog." She may pity you but she won't respect you, and if she doesn't respect you she won't love you.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Hi Tunera,
> I was typing and didn't see your response until I posted.
> I feel like I think about it a lot...everything I do I think about. Doesn't mean I get it right. But I try to consider it before I do it.


Sorry, I wasn't being clear. I meant to spend time thinking about HOW to fix things, not just about how things are. Get some advice from experts. Read some books, ask us. Choose steps that will, or may, help things.


----------



## Chaparral

Nucking Futs said:


> Still, I don't want to bring you down, but what you're doing has been tried many times before and it almost never works. You should spend some time reading in CWI. There are people there that have recovered their marriages and there are people there that tried what you're doing and failed. I can't think of a single one that tried what you're doing and succeeded over the long term.
> 
> Being nice to her hoping to attract her back has the opposite effect. Instead of seeing you being nice and saying "hey, what am I doing, that's the guy for me" she sees you being nice and says "look at that wimp, I ripped his heart out and he's still crawling after me like a puppy dog." She may pity you but she won't respect you, and if she doesn't respect you she won't love you.


I don't know how you act in real life but from what you post you just come off as the opposite of what women need. Nothing you have posted sounds like what a strong independent,attractive man would do.

You haven't taken any advice you've gotten here and you're reaping what you sow. Its very sad that we see you do the failed script so many before you have failed at. God helps those that help them selves. Your wife's answers to her problems is to cheat. Now she's going on a mission trip. Can you say hypocrite?

How did the conversation go with the on pastor go? Oh yeah, you wimped out there too. If you would go back and scan other threads you would see how and why your efforts are failing. You lack the ability to fight for yourself and what's right. You make a decent martyr though.


----------



## Chaparral

In think this is one of the few threads you should invite your wife to. Something isn't right. You can't understand what we're saying and I'm guessing you don't really listen to your wife either.

You're big plan now is to take your son away from your wife. The odds that you will be able to do that are slim and none. If you get fifty fifty you will be lucky, shockingly lucky.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Chaparral said:


> In think this is one of the few threads you should invite your wife to. Something isn't right. You can't understand what we're saying and I'm guessing you don't really listen to your wife either.
> 
> You're big plan now is to take your son away from your wife. The odds that you will be able to do that are slim and none. If you get fifty fifty you will be lucky, shockingly lucky.


Indeed. Based on is earlier posts it's clear he didn't listen to his wife. Not that this excuses everything she's done of course but that combined with the inability to listen here suggests an issue with his ability to listen. He seems like a good guy, at the same time he hears, but doesn't process.

Her side of this would be extremely helpful.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Do you recall the advice given when all this was going on? There were two very different sides both with good points, but it was pretty clear there was not one consistent path.

Both made sense. Both make sense. 

I'm giving her space with the exception of situations like the promotion and her birthday, when I did acknowledge them. She knows we can talk when she wants to. If she wants to leave me because I'm weak or whatever, I'm accepting that rational. It doesn't make sense but her head isn't in this game.

I still watch my son cry when I drop him off every time. Last time she came to pick him up, he cried and ran back to me. He loves her, but he hates to leave me. 

I try to be consistent. I give her no ammunition to use against me in our interactions or texts. 

I have to know that when all is said and done, I did my best. She will know that she was loved and that she left our family. If she is okay with that, she is okay with that. I am confident that I can meet someone else and have a great life if it comes to that. I've learned from all of this. A lot. 

I'd be curious to see how many people that did save their marriage by acting...basically the opposite of who they are...were able to keep it 5 years later. If they come back to you because you ignore them and keep them guessing...how long does that last?

I have made changes to myself that I can maintain in this relationship or the next. Many that I learned in the books recommended. 

This is a link I read that she seems to fit.
Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife

So I consider what it says. If she is just another cheater...well, we are on the road to divorce anyway.

Call me a wimp if you want to, I've never done anything harder. It'd be easier to walk away. It'd be easier to flirt with other women and possibly increase my "status" in her eyes that way, or at least not feel so lonely at times, but I'm not doing it now. 

I'm in better shape, I have a number of close friends and a good family. The business will pick up and finances will improve. My outlook is better regardless of where this goes.


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## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> *Do you recall the advice given when all this was going on? There were two very different sides both with good points, but it was pretty clear there was not one consistent path.*
> 
> Both made sense. Both make sense.
> 
> I'm giving her space with the exception of situations like the promotion and her birthday, when I did acknowledge them. She knows we can talk when she wants to. If she wants to leave me because I'm weak or whatever, I'm accepting that rational. It doesn't make sense but her head isn't in this game.
> 
> I still watch my son cry when I drop him off every time. Last time she came to pick him up, he cried and ran back to me. He loves her, but he hates to leave me.
> 
> I try to be consistent. I give her no ammunition to use against me in our interactions or texts.
> 
> I have to know that when all is said and done, I did my best. She will know that she was loved and that she left our family. If she is okay with that, she is okay with that. I am confident that I can meet someone else and have a great life if it comes to that. I've learned from all of this. A lot.
> 
> I'd be curious to see how many people that did save their marriage by acting...basically the opposite of who they are...were able to keep it 5 years later. If they come back to you because you ignore them and keep them guessing...how long does that last?
> 
> I have made changes to myself that I can maintain in this relationship or the next. Many that I learned in the books recommended.
> 
> This is a link I read that she seems to fit.
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife
> 
> So I consider what it says. If she is just another cheater...well, we are on the road to divorce anyway.
> 
> Call me a wimp if you want to, I've never done anything harder. It'd be easier to walk away. It'd be easier to flirt with other women and possibly increase my "status" in her eyes that way, or at least not feel so lonely at times, but I'm not doing it now.
> 
> I'm in better shape, I have a number of close friends and a good family. The business will pick up and finances will improve. My outlook is better regardless of where this goes.


That part in bold shows you weren't paying close enough attention. You had two viewpoints competing, but it was repeatedly pointed out that the viewpoint you seemed to prefer, and that you're following now, was coming from people with no experience in what you are going through. Read that again. No experience to draw from. The people that spent so much time arguing with them, on the other hand, were all experienced in infidelity. Did we all recover our marriages? No. There is no guaranteed win in this kind of mess. There is a guaranteed lose, and you're doing it now, but there is no guaranteed win.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Its not about faking, but more about healthy detachment to recenter on yourself, nurture yourself regardless of what she's doing. Finding the peace within because your insides become congruent. This is where her attraction "might" follow. Depends on how broken she is.

Thus that perspective IS sustainable.


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## jld

I think you are doing fine, Still. You are acting in a sincere, heartfelt manner.

And it is wise to consider the marriages of the people giving advice.


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## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> I think you are doing fine, Still. You are acting in a sincere, heartfelt manner.
> 
> And it is wise to consider the marriages of the people giving advice.


How much do you need to put Still through before you understand that _you are giving bad advice?_

What will it take to get through to you? You do not know what you're talking about in cases of infidelity! You may have the best marriage in the world, I won't dispute you on that, and I agree with a lot of the advice you give in cases where people are just growing apart through apathy, but infidelity is a completely different barrel of fish and _your advise is actively harmful! 

_These are real people with real relationships they're trying to save, not some bacteria in a petri dish for you to test your theories on. The results matter!


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## Stillkindofhopefull

There is more to this story than I have time to type but the good news is that she came by today and said she'd like to start trying again. Not move back in but just start dating and getting to know one another again. She apologized for her actions and asked forgiveness. She wants me to know everything but wants to work on both of us trusting each other again. That she never physically met the guy and wants me to understand why it happened to begin with but that she is ashamed and doesn't want me to always hold it over her if we get back together. 
She said the letter I wrote on Valentine's Day was the most sincere letter she recalls me ever writing. 
In a nutshell, that is the good news. The other aspect however, is that her ex is wanting custody of the girls. This apparently woke her up and made her realize what was happening. Then church today was about in forgiveness and confirmed what she felt she has been needing to do. 
She wants to work on things. That is where we are at.


----------



## jld

WOW!!!


----------



## farsidejunky

Slow, cautious, one step at a time. 

The first thing that you need to focus on is trust. That will only come with transparency.

In order for that to happen, both of you must clear the air and disclose all of the junk, all the skeletons, her EA, the inappropriate contact with your ex, the porn, all of it. No surprises moving forward.

I also think it may be time for her to reconsider the mission trip. There are more important things for her to invest her time in, namely your marriage.

I hope and pray for your family that this is all that it appears to be, brother.


----------



## manfromlamancha

jld said:


> WOW!!!


I'll say!

DOUBLE WOW!!! EXCELLENT!!!


But also pay attention to FarSide's advice - good advice!

You may be writing a new section in the "How To Reconcile Properly" manual. Hope it continues in this positive direction. Still a fair amount of work ahead.

I wish you the best.


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## turnera

Now's the time for STRICT rules.


----------



## As'laDain

when your wold does not depend on someone else, you can truly love. 

when you love yourself enough to know that you will be okay regardless of how other people treat you, you can truly love someone. 

she has been looking for someone who does not feel threatened by her feelings and her actions. that can be you...

but you have to love yourself for that to happen. you have to love yourself MORE than the thought of being loved my her. i think your getting there. your attitude and tone as of late shows that you are.


keep it up. its good for you.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> she has been looking for someone who does not feel threatened by her feelings and her actions. that can be you...


:iagree:

Keep showing her she can trust you. You have done such a good job so far. You kept your little light shining when it was dark all around. 

Still, my husband usually reacts to my anger with active listening. It is so calming and reassuring. It makes me feel listened to and understood.

But sometimes he forgets and gets defensive, or tries to explain himself. It is hard for me to listen when I am upset. Active listening works much better.


----------



## Tobyboy

All I'm gonna say is.......be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

Wonder if her OM and her Ex got the same "dating offer" as you did?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Most guys are actually more interested in being able to trust the cheating partner which, let's face it, that may come but slowly.

How does the ex wanting custody come into play? Why now? Did he find out she was cheating again? Is she still going on her mission trip?


----------



## Chaparral

Amazon.com: love must be tough: Books

Here is a link to a book written be a very knowledgeable Christian. At least read the reviews.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Congrats Skilled... 

Ever since you said your gut has been talking to you about divorce just not feeling like the answer in this situation, my gut gas been telling me this moment would come. Why? Because you felt centered on that truth and in her chaos, it will be calming to her and you would feel like a respite. A cool drink in a hot desert... Happy for you...


----------



## happy as a clam

Chaparral said:


> *How does the ex wanting custody come into play? Why now?* Did he find out she was cheating again? Is she still going on her mission trip?


I agree, Chap. Is she suddenly worried that her child support payments (from the ex) will dry up and she can't afford to be on her own? Is Still her financial "safety net"?

Still, I'm very happy for you that she wants to attempt to "work this out". But pay close attention and keep your eyes open. 

And if she really wants to work it out and demonstrate her priorities, she should nix the mission trip.


----------



## jld

happy as a clam said:


> I agree, Chap.* Is she suddenly worried that her child support payments (from the ex) will dry up and she can't afford to be on her own?* Is Still her financial "safety net"?
> 
> Still, I'm very happy for you that she wants to attempt to "work this out". But pay close attention and keep your eyes open.
> 
> And if she really wants to work it out and demonstrate her priorities, she should nix the mission trip.


I really hope it is not the bolded. She is a nurse, right, Still? An RN, not an LPN? An RN should be able to support herself and her children, living in an apartment, though the child support surely makes it easier.

It might be hard to cancel the mission trip this late. I doubt she would get her money back.

If I were you, Still, I would insist on transparency, and humility, in both of you. Humility as in just very deep, very sincere honesty. You need to show her your heart, and you need to see hers.

Without that kind of vulnerability, reconciliation could prove unsuccessful.


----------



## happy as a clam

jld said:


> It might be hard to cancel the mission trip this late. *I doubt she would get her money back.*


Ok, I agree. But if "getting her money back" is her priority, then I would caution Still about her true motivations.

She could send someone else in her place (perhaps someone who couldn't afford the trip but really wanted to go) which would be a very altruistic gift for that lucky individual. And it would demonstrate to Still what her priorities are.


----------



## jld

happy as a clam said:


> Ok, I agree. But if "getting her money back" is her priority, then I would caution Still about her true motivations.
> 
> *She could send someone else in her place (perhaps someone who couldn't afford the trip but really wanted to go) which would be a very altruistic gift for that lucky individual.* And it would demonstrate to Still what her priorities are.


Hmm. That's an interesting idea. 

Well, I think the possibility of reconciliation is happening at least in part to all of the goodwill from Still. I think sudden heavy handedness on his part would probably squash any forward motion. 

You know the situation best, Still. You have gotten things this far. I am sure you will handle things just fine moving forward.


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## honcho

I believe you wrote somewhere that you have a good relationship with the father of the daughters. It might be a good idea to talk to him. I think he viewed you as a stable figure in his daughters lives and with you out of there lives he may be concerned about there upbringing. 

Ill sound like the cynical one I guess but I got a hunch her new found desire to try and work things out has more to do with potentially loosing her daughters than anything.


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## happy as a clam

honcho said:


> I'll sound like the cynical one I guess but I got a hunch *her new found desire to try and work things out has more to do with potentially loosing her daughters than anything.*


I'm in your camp, honcho.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I've considered all the various angles of this...I still am.

Is she getting back with me so that she can keep the kids with her?
If so, what happens when things are "normal" again? 
Will she feel she has to stay with me in order to keep things "normal" and in the meantime feel trapped again?

When she came to me yesterday and apologized, and talked about trying again, she later said she was a little disappointed I didn't act more happy about trying. I was happy, but I was processing everything...she didn't come to me out of a realization that she has true love for me. She came to me out of a realization of what she has caused and where things are headed. She thought she was doing the right thing but...according to her, she felt the letter I had written knocked down a wall that she has had up for a long time. The next day she found out about the deal with the kids...and before finding that out, just knowing someone was coming to her work, looking for her, scared her. She said she started to get hit with a realization of what was really happening. The next morning was our church service about forgiveness and she said it all came together and she had a change of heart. She went and prayed with our pastor about us and the mission trip and then came to see me.
She did feel she should still go on the mission trip. I held my tongue on my opinion. She is now reconsidering.

She doesn't receive child support so that isn't drying up. They split expenses 50/50 for the girls.

She explained to me again how things got started with her and the other guy. She agreed that for both of us there would have to be an agreement to no contact but she now understands more how I felt about my friend/ex...how you can like them because they've made a difference in your life and respected and helped you when you needed it. And now I understand why I shouldn't have had that relationship...even though I thought it was harmless and stated that I cared about her as a person before we ever got married...man, I honestly did not know what it felt like to be in my wife's shoes regarding all of that...until now.

She said it isn't that she doesn't love me but that after she had been through what she had been through...and started to see the pattern happen again...and being alone except for the kids, she didn't mean for the EA to take place and he never asked her anything sexual. They did grow feelings for each other but when one wanted to meet, the other refused and vice versa...which led me to ask, how do I know he won't be in the back of her head now...this "Mr. Perfect" which is a question I also have had to ask myself about my "friend" at times. It is easy to assume life would be better with the one you've never been able to live with. 

She acknowledged we both have to learn to trust each other again. That I have to learn to trust her just as much I as she does me but she thinks we can do it.

She said her first ex told her some of the same things I did when they split...that he loved her and would never love another...and within a week he was with the one he later married. She said that my consistency has been important for her to see because it shows I wasn't just talk. But that she has also really needed this time, this space.

She loves the small house and if we do get back together still wants to sell this one (mine) because they are so much closer being on the same floor and in a smaller place. I am fine with that. That was my one complaint with our house...the girls were downstairs so much it was like we only saw them half the time.

She reminded me she didn't need the money but believed in my ability to do whatever I set my mind to. She wants my time. She doesn't want to be lonely with the kids all the time.

She wants to stay working again (I am fine with that). She does make good money and it gives her a sense of purpose.

She is also joining women's church groups so she can meet more girlfriends. She has usually got along better with guys because girls bring more drama. But she doesn't want that. She is already making new girl friends she really likes, including the pastor's wife.
She went to a scrapbooking session Saturday morning with some of the women and shown them how she does her stuff online instead of cutting and gluing...they loved it and she felt a lot more like she had more to offer. 

Anyway, we went to lunch with all the kids today and then back to our/my house and watched a movie. The middle child sat by me for most of it.

We agreed that there is a lot of work to do but that she/we is/are willing to try. She said she thinks it can work. We both agreed it will take time.

That is basically where things lie now.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

So, this is about her guilt. Not about love.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

To her, it is about trust. Not as much about love. She said she loves me, it's the trust that caused problems...and her self worth and some depression. 

It's real life. 

I still can't say where this "real life" will go but it is a step in a better direction.

I had just told a friend Saturday night that there will just have to be something that causes a change of heart, that is the only chance we have but I've had legitimate changes of my heart...at least once, so I know they can happen. And I pray and try to keep my head clear and positive.

We laughed today. We talked today. 
So it was a good day.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I hear you Still. Just, please, don't settle for anything less than love.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I get that. And I can look at my own writings and see the areas of concern.

I did download and am reading "Love Must be Tough" by James Dobson. It is very applicable.

I don't want to take this opportunity and cast it aside because of the concerns and stop short a moment I've prayed for and could see happening.

But I'm better for where I am right now. I won't go blindly back into it either. 

My son absolutely loved us all being together. When we went to eat he kept telling all of us "Daddy back! Daddy back!" 

At her house he'd ask my wife to come sit by him and once she did then he'd look at me and pat the other side of the chair so we'd all sit together. But with that said, he's already adapted to how things are to a degree. The girls have been through the worst of things...experiencing exactly what I was trying to prevent. 

I have no desire to go through this again. I'm hopeful but I've felt hope now about life without her. It doesn't seem real, but up until yesterday it was the reality.

I will tread lightly and see where this goes.


----------



## farsidejunky

Don't see where it goes, Still.

Lead it where it needs to go.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> When she came to me yesterday and apologized, and talked about trying again, she later said she was a little disappointed I didn't act more happy about trying.


Still, this is a HUGE red flag. Psychologically, it means she had had you in her mental back pocket all along, JUST KNOWING that you'd be jumping hoops the moment she said she'd come home. She had already planned out the Wonderous Return of the Wife. 

This has NOTHING to do with you. It's all about what makes HER happy. You're just another man she has to use.

And she treated you like CRAP. That's who she is, Still. That doesn't go away.

And I love how she turned this all into being YOUR fault.

She's good at getting what she wants, isn't she? She wants you out, you're out. She wants to cheat, she cheats. She wants to be the good guy so she can have it all back, you're the one now being blamed.

I bet you $10 that if she comes home, she quits work within a month.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Don't see where it goes, Still.
> 
> Lead it where it needs to go.


It is still pretty fragile, though, far. I think if he's heavy handed the way some seem to think he should be, she will likely leave again. No one wants to feel trapped.

She did acknowledge they both needed to learn to trust each other. I think that shows goodwill.

And love develops over time. She is not required to have it down perfectly right this minute. He has not shown perfection either. They can learn together.

I am really glad to hear you will be in the girls' lives again, Still. You love them and they need that. I know your son is your priority, but I think they need you just as much. And I think you realize that.

Again, I think you will manage just fine. You have a good heart and a calm head. You consider different ideas, and weighing all factors, do what you feel is best. Seems like life is going well, all things considered.


----------



## turnera

Still, remind me: how often did you text your GF?


----------



## sammy3

Just finished reading, "Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife."

Long read, and tough to do so. For those who arent religious, replace the religious words in whatever higher power one believes in, either yourself or whatever... 

It hit home for marriages that have been hit with long term issues, misunderstood communication, mindset, infidelity, and gives things to think about...

~sammy


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I am aware of the red flag. It got my attention, too. To think that after all this, she comes in and wants to "try" and expecting me to hop on board like the king in response to the prodigal son.

I realize that she has been through a whirlwind of events and emotions over the last 3 days and who knows what else in the time we've been separated.

She could have been running on the emotional high of the powerful message and how it relates to everything else going on, to include the new, and surprising, onset of a custody case. 

She also worked 2 twelve hour shifts Saturday and Sunday.

She did say enough that gave me reason to think there was still potential. We discussed the online issues and she said it would have to stop. That she can't compete with all of that and doesn't want to. But she mixed it with other issues that told me not to relax. I saw remorse but I also saw fatigue. Fatigue makes you want to stop, whatever the easiest way out can be is often taken, but when you get your energy back it can change your perspective again.

I have texted my exGF/friend probably...6 different occasions throughout our marriage. Three or four phone calls. 5 or 6 FB public comments and a few messages. Looking back, there was never any all-night texting sessions or 30 minute phone calls...no "I miss you" messages...but still, seeing how I see now...it was wrong. She was a legitimate friend and I legitimately cared about her but just had no desire to ever risk my marriage...or do anything that i considered to be risking my marriage. 

Now that she has a similar situation...someone that she feels "helped her through a tough point" it changes my perspective. Now I get to wonder if she thinks about him when things are hard, like I had in the past. Even though I didn't act on anything and wouldn't...I don't like being on this side. It is different, but there are definite similarities to draw from. She sees him as greener pastures...as potential if things get too hard. I think at times I used to think that same way.


----------



## sammy3

The reality is, your marriage has been through a lot of separation and coming some what back again for a bit of time now. Much like mine has, a bit over 3 years. There is a lot of stuff that happens with a separation that long. Even thou you've been together, for your wife there has been someone else in her heart. For you now, you're questioning if a long term friend was more to you than what they really probably were. You both are far from the same two people who started the marriage out on goodwill. 

With all this drama that is going on for you within your life, your marriage, your wife, your world, ... it comes down to, are you okay with living as you are. If so, close this chapter of pain, and open a new chapter and live the marriage that is there. Live the life with the wife that is in that chapter. Put you attention and learn to love the world that you have in front of you. The past is the past, leave it there. You cant change it. You can only live in what you are looking at. 

The questions the drama doesn't go away, one can only live ones life in good will of oneself, and hope that others around you will too. You can only control yourself, try to quite yourself & listen yourself... so all these questions about your wife, doesn't really matter, what matters is you, what can you do... how is it for you? Are you happy, are you ok with what you have? 

Are you ok? Do you with waking up every morning with a purpose? Do you see a future together, and if you do, blow past away... but be honest with yourself... 

~sammy


----------



## turnera

Still, no matter what, DO NOT LET HER MOVE IN.

She can try on R with you from her OWN house. On her OWN money. At her OWN expenditure. If she still 'wants you' after six months of that, then just maybe she's worth taking back.


----------



## Openminded

I totally agree. Six months of hard work on her part (and not living with you) should give you an idea if this is real or you are just a convenient Plan B for her. That's what many R's are about -- convenience, not love. You love her. Make certain she really does love you. Right now? It looks iffy to me how deeply she feels. I hope she proves me wrong.


----------



## jld

I think he wants his son with him full-time. I don't know if he was planning on her moving back in or not, but that might be a motivation for it.


----------



## turnera

Doesn't change my advice. Letting her move back in RIGHT NOW after all she's done to him just teaches her that he's a pushover and she will just do it again in a couple years when he stops jumping through her hoops high enough.

He can wait six more months to have his son full time.


----------



## Openminded

It's better to be cautious about this now -- and be sure -- than rip the family apart a second time down the road. 

Nothing in life is a guarantee, obviously, but some caution now will pay off later.


----------



## karole

Still, you should insist on IC and marriage counseling. I honestly don't think your wife has a clue what she wants. She seems like a person that is never satisfied with anything or anyone.


----------



## Abc123wife

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> I have texted my exGF/friend probably...6 different occasions throughout our marriage. Three or four phone calls. 5 or 6 FB public comments and a few messages. Looking back, there was never any all-night texting sessions or 30 minute phone calls...no "I miss you" messages...but still, seeing how I see now...it was wrong. She was a legitimate friend and I legitimately cared about her but just had no desire to ever risk my marriage...or do anything that i considered to be risking my marriage.
> 
> Now that she has a similar situation...someone that she feels "helped her through a tough point" it changes my perspective.


Wow! Why are you even comparing you keeping in contact with a long ago female friend and her emotional affair that she kept secret from you? Your wife has done a number on you if she has you convinced that you are both guilty and need to rebuild trust!

Did you ever keep your relationship with your friend a secret from your wife?

Did you declare love for your female friend? Write her love letters?

Did your friendship with this friend lead you to tell your wife you needed a separation from her?

So again, how was your longtime friendship with a female that your wife was well aware of similar in any way, shape, or form to your wife's secret emotional affair that she tore your whole family up over and was ready to force you for?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

She doesn't want to move back in to our house. She would prefer it be sold and find something smaller and where we are all on the same floor.

We hugged today, our first real hug...real mutual hug in a long time. 

The relationship was similar mainly in the way it left both of us feeling about the other...mine was not on the same level at all...but when my wife read the FB messages that weren't public...even though they weren't "bad"...they were very complimentary. She felt I complimented my friend as a mom more than I complimented my wife...and she was right to a degree. To me, I was trying to help someone far away with only words. So I was very encouraging. Regardless, my wife felt I wasn't spending the time with her, but still had time to correspond with the exGF, to her she was the almost-wife...and it was true. To me, even though she was, nobody compared to my wife. We saw it differently. Then add the online issues, her baggage from a previous marriage...I can see more why she hurt now, than I did when we were going through it.

Am I justifying it? I'm not trying to. I'm trying to understand it while looking at the big picture.

I could hear "my wife" again in her voice this evening. She invited me over for dinner, I'll be heading there in a bit. We joked. We both laughed. I was actually concerned about that issue...and the intimacy...how do you get those "good feelings" back? At least we are laughing right now.

I was considering giving our dog to a friend...actually, another ex. Really, I tend to stay friends with people. After the hurt, there can be forgiveness. For our own sake, there needs to be forgiveness...not "forgive but don't forgetness" but true "as far as the east is from the west - forgiveness." It isn't easy but it has helped over the years.

...so anyway, I was going to take my dog there, see if she got along with their dog (her and husband and kids) and if so, let them have her. She wasn't getting attention from me like she deserves. Their dog, the one they wanted company for, looks exactly like my dog's sister that she grew up with...which is crazy because she has pretty specific markings. 
Point being, she asked if her husband would be there and I said yes and we both joking, but seriously agreed, that given the situation, if her husband wouldn't be there it would be best if I did at a later date. 

I liked that we could address it without a lot of initial angst.

I had to tell my folks tonight. They were not happy and I completely don't blame them.

6 months sounds appropriate. I'm not opposed to that.

She said when the time comes I can move in with them in their little house until we found something better. I liked that. Neither of us came from much financial wherewithal. Smaller homes, closer families.

At any rate, things are looking better. They are far from there but I'm encouraged and not blind.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

We had dinner tonight. I went over there and she made spaghetti and meatballs. It was nice being able to smell dinner being cooked again.

She is still going on the mission trip. She spoke to her attorney about it and had decided to let him advise her on whether to go or not given the situation. His advice was to go, not to let this (particular) issue stop her.

The girls were glad to see me, my son especially. 
The oldest is a little different now, expectedly. She wants to go live her dad next school year. I can't say I blame her. I'm sure there is a part of her that watched my relationship with my son when we had to pick up and drop off, and it probably reminded her of some of their moments and how her dad must have felt. Although he (apparently) wasn't very present in their lives until after the divorce. I can see that, from the aspect that a significant change like that can significantly change a person.

We hugged but no kissing, no "I love you" yet. I left when the girls were going to bed. I didn't want to make it uncomfortable for them or push for anything else too soon.

I'm up early this morning. Can't really sleep so I'm typing this then going to the gym.

I have an appointment with my counselor tomorrow morning.


----------



## Chaparral

Why the attorney be giving her advice on this situation. How could something that could hurt the relationship be good advice? Good for the attorney though if it leads to more litigation.


----------



## turnera

She wouldn't be going if you made it clear you consider it a black mark in your mind. At least I HOPE she wouldn't.

This is just like any other WW who gets to eat cake, IMO. The BH makes it too easy to screw around and still get her man back. Which makes it easier to cheat next time; hey, I did it and I STILL got to do everything I wanted, he won't care, he's too desperate to keep me.


----------



## Tobyboy

Is her OM also going on the mission trip?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

I am on the record with this opinion.

Still, if your wife wants to RECONCILE (after all the damage SHE has caused) *she should cancel her mission trip.*

And YOU should insist she does.

"It's me, or the trip."


----------



## WorkingOnMe

happy as a clam said:


> I am on the record with this opinion.
> 
> Still, if your wife wants to RECONCILE (after all the damage SHE has caused) *she should cancel her mission trip.*
> 
> And YOU should insist she does.
> 
> "It's me, or the trip."



Yup. Just tell her it's a trip you can't come back from, if you go. 

Nothing looks worse on a man than desperation.


----------



## Chaparral

If they ever met up how did they end up in the EA?


----------



## honcho

No attorney would ever give that sort of advice about going on the trip. That's just nonesense. This mission trip has been her focal point for a long time. She is wanting to go no matter what advise she received.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Sure doesn't seem to think the marriage - and fixing the damage SHE CAUSED - is all that important...

But then OP isn't making it very hard for her to get it all back, either. Why should she?


----------



## happy as a clam

honcho said:


> *No attorney would ever give that sort of advice about going on the trip.* That's just nonesense.


honcho... are you serious??

No attorney would ever give that advice?? WHO CARES about attorneys' advice when it comes to matters OF THE HEART and SAVING a marriage? Attornies are not interested in SAVING MARRIAGES. Sorry to say, but they are interested in lining their pockets.



honcho said:


> The mission trip has been her focal point for a long time.


Ummm.... yeah. To the DETRIMENT of her HUSBAND and her MARRIAGE. And it's still not clear... will OM be on this "mission trip" or not? No one has told us this "small" detail.


----------



## GTdad

happy as a clam said:


> honcho... are you serious??
> 
> No attorney would ever give that advice?? WHO CARES about attorneys' advice when it comes to matters OF THE HEART and SAVING a marriage? Attornies are not interested in SAVING MARRIAGES. Sorry to say, but they are interested in lining their pockets.


I think what Honcho is saying is that he's having a tough time imagining an attorney weighing in on whether she should go on the mission trip or not. 

So am I. I think his wife made it up.


----------



## Openminded

I don't for a moment believe she asked her attorney's advice. But she should have asked you. The fact that she didn't says a lot. 

It's still all about her.


----------



## happy as a clam

tdwal said:


> I believe he stated earlier that the OM was not going on this mission trip. *Why does it matter whether she goes on this trip? * Its for a good cause she obviously believes in.


*Why does it matter?
*
I honestly believe it matters because OP's wife has hid beyond her "devout Christian faith" for months... dragging OP through h*ll in a VERY "un-Christian-like" way... (and, from the sounds of it, her first husband too).

This trip is the ultimate hypocrisy of her "Christian" actions and deeds...

Personally, I think it is in the daughters' best interests if first husband wins his custody battle against OP's wife. (Sorry OP, but you are not their father even though you love them as such. Imagine the battle you would wage if someone else (including the mother) was vying for your son and you felt his mother wasn't protecting him.)

Sorry to be blunt.


----------



## GTdad

tdwal said:


> I believe he stated earlier that the OM was not going on this mission trip. Why does it matter whether she goes on this trip? Its for a good cause she obviously believes in.


I guess I'm wondering where he got the information that the OM won't be on the trip. And whether there's just one OM.

Edit: Just the fact that she's so hell-bent (if you'll pardon the expression) on going on this mission trip should be setting off some warning bells.


----------



## happy as a clam

tdwal said:


> I think you are taking this beyond the extreme.


Ummm... *I HARDLY think so.* And neither do *many* others who have posted on this thread.

I wonder why you are UNDERwhelming his situation. Similar situation in your own life?


----------



## turnera

tdwal said:


> Let's just say I'm a Christian and have been on mission trips and there not exactly lovers rendezvous.


Tell that to THESE girls.
Preachers' Daughters - Episodes, Videos, & Schedule - myLifetime.com

I've seen more lap dances and boob bearing and near naked men on that show than anywhere else combined.


----------



## turnera

It's entertaining to watch these 'heavily Christian' girls go on a mission trip and watch what they're really there for. Some really are there to make a difference. Some are there to get away from the tight fist of their ultraconservative strict parents and be able to go out and party. One girl is 20 and has never even been on a date because her dad won't let her and she has to stay at the house while the other girls go out. One girl won't even go on the work details and just hangs out at their home those days and goes out and parties every night. It's fascinating to watch.


----------



## As'laDain

when i used to go on missions trips, it was usually with a whole bunch of young individuals who had to not only pay their way, but work their asses off just so they would be allowed to go. i was one of the only ones with decent job in high school, so i paid for several of them. 

there is no one size fits all in regards to who goes on them. ill not begrudge someone a missions trip. 
but, if it was my wife going, and she was in an affair, and her AP was going, i wouldnt stand for it. 

i would leave. missions trips can broaden your mind in a way you will never understand until you go. it can expose you to people who come from completely different walks of life if you let it. 

still not good enough to sit by and allow stupid to happen. so, if stupid is going to happen, walk away from it.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Regarding the OM. He is not going. Not a chance. When I initially came across him but didn't know how they knew each other, I thought he was one of the leaders of the trip...the kind that meet you there because in her letter she described never physically seeing him, only having heard his voice and referenced going on a mission trip...so did I still think he was going? Yes. But he isn't. 

He isn't medical. I went to his church's website to see if they had any missions going there. Also emailed him Friday to ask if he had been respecting the no-contact agreement (never heard back) but throughout the discovery and ever since she denied him going...did that hold a lot of water? No, except that I know 6-8 members that are going. One is our dentist. I saw him yesterday and talked about their trip.

Did I tell her not to go? No. Part of her "crisis" in all of this was not having a life, having been married since college and always wanting to do missions since college, she felt this was one of those moments of finding "her" and doing something for herself. 

Did I initially consider it selfish? Yes. Do I still? Yeah. But in a little different light. Am I the one to say..."I want you to have your freedom but right now you are in trouble and I'm laying down what is going to happen?" I'm not doing that. 

I was surprised her lawyer gave her the go ahead. But she was concerned about the custody modification and realized maybe she shouldn't go and up until yesterday hadn't had a clear answer. He said the mission trip wouldn't affect the modification request, that her husband got off easy during the divorce and if he wanted to fight it, they would fight it and in fact go for the child support that she didn't request the first time. Her lawyer told her at that point that if she ever changed her mind, he could pursue it on her behalf.

The attorney is the other best attorney in the area...aside from the one I luckily knew and retained. That gave her the "okay" inside her mind to go ahead and go. 

I am watching all of this from both aspects of being her husband and almost being the one doing the same thing her first husband is now attempting.

In the meantime, I am seeing more of "my wife" return to the girl I knew before this all started. I grew a little concerned this morning when I didn't hear much from her but instead of texting her I just waited it out. Getting 3 kids ready (school was cancelled) while packing, and our son wasn't feeling great made her day fly by. But she asked if I wanted to meet for dinner and we did. 

She talked more about getting our finances back on track and how she can help make up for this situation we are now in since she caused a lot more hardship by moving out and doubling our expenses.

I was a little concerned about awkwardness but things seemed to flow pretty well. We legitimately laughed and joked, had some serious conversation but not a lot...which I didn't want right now. I wanted to see if we actually enjoyed each other's company still and we did.

We took a family photo of the 3 of us before she left, it was nice to see her genuine smile in a photo with me again.

She commented about how she was wearing what she had on to travel (jeans and a hoodie), not getting dressed up, no make up, no anything...I think to reassure me about not meeting anyone, I told her I noticed and we both made a few jokes and reassuring comments.

If her going on the trip is a bad move, it is for her to decide. Telling a trapped person that their punishment for their actions...that were brought about a lot by the feeling of being trapped...is to tell them what they are not free to go, didn't feel right to me. Let her regret it on her own...or let her have a great time and feel accomplished and see my support behind it and see where it goes.

Am I being weak and too easy? I wonder sometimes but seeing the return of her interest and our ease of spending time together so far is worth it. She legitimately felt (in her eyes) that my actions led to feelings of betrayal and self-worth issues. Does it equal her actions? I don't think so but she is admitting her faults so I'm not throwing them back at her as well.

We still have a lot to do. I still can't see that guy on FB (she/they blocked me). I haven't asked that she unblock me though, yet, either. She said she had texted him earlier after she moved and he either never responded or if he did, it was one word or a sentence at the most telling her to work on her marriage. 

Did that bother me? Yeah...because she still pursued him and he basically turned her down so here she is back to me. I get it. Then the custody suit so panic sets in and fatigue is mounting. I get it. Then my love letter "helped take down a wall" and the message on forgiveness opened her eyes and she realized what she was doing to her family...it all caused a change of heart. And I see the red flags in what I just said but that is still the reality of where we are at.

In the book "Love Must be Tough" it addresses her personality in this situation...knowing what she is doing is wrong and it taking a toll on her person...losing weight, depression, etc until a choice is made.

Is it the way I wanted things to be when I imagined things working out...no. But if this was her crisis. If she continues to clear her head and we can both learn from this...legitimately, then I'm open to it. Her blame for me isn't baseless, I did do things that hurt her. But they also didn't justify her actions. 

Anyway, just trying to keep it all out there to help paint as realistic picture as possible for those that this may help one way or another.

I can see the woman I have missed for a long time. I'm willing to walk with her through this and see where it goes. I'm stronger than I was and a lot more alert. And I'm thankful for this opportunity.


----------



## turnera

tdwal said:


> I can't believe you of all people believe that these reality shows on TV are not staged. Its TV, they will show what perversion people want to watch. They have to create drama or people wouldn't watch them. I also can't believe you watch it for anything more than entertainment because that is what it is. And I guess this is what you think a mission trip is about.


Yep.

fwiw, we go on mission trips all the time - every 3 years for the ELCA. And thank you for saying I like to watch perversion. Backatcha.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Regarding the OM. He is not going. Not a chance. When I initially came across him but didn't know how they knew each other, I thought he was one of the leaders of the trip...the kind that meet you there because in her letter she described never physically seeing him, only having heard his voice and referenced going on a mission trip...so did I still think he was going? Yes. But he isn't.
> 
> He isn't medical. I went to his church's website to see if they had any missions going there. Also emailed him Friday to ask if he had been respecting the no-contact agreement (never heard back) but throughout the discovery and ever since she denied him going...did that hold a lot of water? No, except that I know 6-8 members that are going. One is our dentist. I saw him yesterday and talked about their trip.
> 
> Did I tell her not to go? No. Part of her "crisis" in all of this was not having a life, having been married since college and always wanting to do missions since college, she felt this was one of those moments of finding "her" and doing something for herself.
> 
> Did I initially consider it selfish? Yes. Do I still? Yeah. But in a little different light. Am I the one to say..."I want you to have your freedom but right now you are in trouble and I'm laying down what is going to happen?" I'm not doing that.
> 
> I was surprised her lawyer gave her the go ahead. But she was concerned about the custody modification and realized maybe she shouldn't go and up until yesterday hadn't had a clear answer. He said the mission trip wouldn't affect the modification request, that her husband got off easy during the divorce and if he wanted to fight it, they would fight it and in fact go for the child support that she didn't request the first time. Her lawyer told her at that point that if she ever changed her mind, he could pursue it on her behalf.
> 
> The attorney is the other best attorney in the area...aside from the one I luckily knew and retained. That gave her the "okay" inside her mind to go ahead and go.
> 
> I am watching all of this from both aspects of being her husband and almost being the one doing the same thing her first husband is now attempting.
> 
> In the meantime, I am seeing more of "my wife" return to the girl I knew before this all started. I grew a little concerned this morning when I didn't hear much from her but instead of texting her I just waited it out. Getting 3 kids ready (school was cancelled) while packing, and our son wasn't feeling great made her day fly by. But she asked if I wanted to meet for dinner and we did.
> 
> She talked more about getting our finances back on track and how she can help make up for this situation we are now in since she caused a lot more hardship by moving out and doubling our expenses.
> 
> I was a little concerned about awkwardness but things seemed to flow pretty well. We legitimately laughed and joked, had some serious conversation but not a lot...which I didn't want right now. I wanted to see if we actually enjoyed each other's company still and we did.
> 
> We took a family photo of the 3 of us before she left, it was nice to see her genuine smile in a photo with me again.
> 
> *She commented about how she was wearing what she had on to travel (jeans and a hoodie), not getting dressed up, no make up, no anything...I think to reassure me about not meeting anyone, I told her I noticed and we both made a few jokes and reassuring comments.*
> 
> If her going on the trip is a bad move, it is for her to decide. Telling a trapped person that their punishment for their actions...that were brought about a lot by the feeling of being trapped...is to tell them what they are not free to go, didn't feel right to me. Let her regret it on her own...or let her have a great time and feel accomplished and see my support behind it and see where it goes.
> 
> Am I being weak and too easy? I wonder sometimes but seeing the return of her interest and our ease of spending time together so far is worth it. She legitimately felt (in her eyes) that my actions led to feelings of betrayal and self-worth issues. Does it equal her actions? I don't think so but she is admitting her faults so I'm not throwing them back at her as well.
> 
> We still have a lot to do. I still can't see that guy on FB (she/they blocked me). I haven't asked that she unblock me though, yet, either. She said she had texted him earlier after she moved and he either never responded or if he did, it was one word or a sentence at the most telling her to work on her marriage.
> 
> Did that bother me? Yeah...because she still pursued him and he basically turned her down so here she is back to me. I get it. Then the custody suit so panic sets in and fatigue is mounting. I get it. Then my love letter "helped take down a wall" and the message on forgiveness opened her eyes and she realized what she was doing to her family...it all caused a change of heart. And I see the red flags in what I just said but that is still the reality of where we are at.
> 
> In the book "Love Must be Tough" it addresses her personality in this situation...knowing what she is doing is wrong and it taking a toll on her person...losing weight, depression, etc until a choice is made.
> 
> Is it the way I wanted things to be when I imagined things working out...no. But if this was her crisis. If she continues to clear her head and we can both learn from this...legitimately, then I'm open to it. Her blame for me isn't baseless, I did do things that hurt her. But they also didn't justify her actions.
> 
> Anyway, just trying to keep it all out there to help paint as realistic picture as possible for those that this may help one way or another.
> 
> I can see the woman I have missed for a long time. I'm willing to walk with her through this and see where it goes. I'm stronger than I was and a lot more alert. And I'm thankful for this opportunity.


Am I understanding the bold part correctly that she invited you to meet her for dinner and was dressed in jeans and a hoodie with no makeup?


----------



## jld

I am so impressed with how you are handling things, Still. You seem so much calmer and more peaceful than a few months ago. You truly are stronger, and that is reflected in the humble and understanding tone of your posts.

You are right not to be controlling. Much better for her to make her own choices than for you to try to force her hand in any way. And I think you know your boundaries and will communicate them to her as the need arises.

Again, just so impressed. So well done.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Thanks.

Nucking, that is true but it was because she was leaving after dinner. She was saying she wasn't going to change into anything nicer than what she had been wearing all day. She had packed and taken care of the kids and got the girls to their dad's before meeting me then did a little more packing before coming by our house to say goodbye.

We agreed date night would be when she got back so I wasn't expecting anything different.

Just noticed that this is the 1300th post in this thread. My 333rd.

There have been a lot of hard moments within these posts and a lot of heartfelt advice.

Things are better but not out of the woods. Better than I would have ever thought a week ago, though.

Thankful for that and for all that have tracked this and that have given advice.

I did want to mention that when I was driving over to her house last night, I was thanking God for the opportunity and all the recent changes that had taken place. And that "still small voice" that I know I heard back in the day when I'd find myself looking at things I shouldn't that said, "This will be your downfall"...as well as later saying, "It will be okay, I'm going to work on her now," when a new situation would develop...and when I'd be in church, struggling with things, I would hear it clearly say "Don't divorce her." ... that same inner-voice, after I had out loud thanked God last night, said "I told you. Thank you for having faith."

I know that part sounds crazy, but it is a part of this story because it was as real as anything else. Sometimes irritatingly because I still hadn't seen any progress, only worsening of the situation throughout most of this. So I wanted to throw that in here for those that it may help...I'm sure there will be those that eye-roll as well. If I didn't believe, I would do the same thing. 

Hopefully/prayerfully this really is the start to what our marriage should have been a lot more like the whole time.

I knew better, all the times she said "you're getting too busy." Or when I would find myself looking at things I shouldn't (regardless of how I justified it), or resting in the encouragment or "what ifs" of someone else when things here were hard...even though I felt I knew I would never leave (and I wouldn't have), it still wasn't right and little by little it all caught up to me. She wasn't perfect either. We both got here together so I'm praying we can walk away from it together and better for it in due time. 

Only time, and our actions, will tell. I have counseling this morning. Meeting with the same guy we both met with and who had told me there was nothing more he could do, that she was gone. We aren't out of the woods by any means, but I'm looking forward to this session a lot more than the ones in the past.


----------



## Chaparral

Chaparral said:


> If they ever met up how did they end up in the EA?


I meant never met up.


----------



## Chaparral

tdwal said:


> So are ELCA missions like this television program?


I Christian radio program I used to listen to said Christian divorce was very slightly higher than average.

Preachers were guite below average for cheating. All types of people fail in their relationships. Supposedly, 70% of the men and women polled said they would cheat if they knew they wouldn't get caught. Evidently half of them do cheat. However, since only 1 in 5 cheaters do get caght , it means 80% percent of us cheated on are none the wiser.


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## turnera

About half and half. I remember having to race around the SuperDome after our last rally because one of the girls decided to slip away and hook up with a boy she met. We were HOURS late getting home because she wouldn't answer our phone calls; we had the whole SuperDome security force out looking for them. We had kids ditch us on outings ALL.THE.TIME and we had to go searching for them. We had kids show up for the work dates who would disappear and show back up when it was time for lunch, then disappear again until it was time to go back to the hotels. Then we had kids like mine who would take charge and guide the other ones, cos that's how we (one Christian, one Agnostic/Atheist) raised her. 

btw, that girl who ditched us at the Dome, we had told her super religious dad what happened. When we got back to Houston that night and everyone came to pick up their kids, he refused. He told her to walk the five miles home at midnight and she would be punished when she got home. Great Christian, forgiving man. True to form for many kids of supercriticial self-righteous 'Christians,' she moved away the minute she turned 18 and turned into a wild child. Never looked back. And her younger sister is certifiable.

Then there are the beaten down kids. The two whose dad married SuperB*tch. They were the King and Queen of the church, everyone loved them because they took control and ran everything, touted them as the perfect Christian family. But the kids...makes me wanna cry. Stepmom gave the stepdaughter a package of hangers for her Christmas present. And bought herself a new car.

These are the kinds of things that made me walk away.


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## jld

*Hopefully/prayerfully this really is the start to what our marriage should have been a lot more like the whole time.*

I agree, Still. 

I have to say, I am touched by the humility in your posts. Your heart is truly repentant towards your wife, and I am sure that is what is drawing her back, and inspiring her own repentance. 

It is hard to maintain a prideful stance in the face of genuine humility from our partners. We start to feel like real heels for whatever we have done to them.


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## turnera

tdwal said:


> I believe he said this is a medical mission trip so I would assume all professionals. Your experiences seem to be related to children not the adults. I don't think it is reasonable to assume that all Christians are like that television show.


Never said they were. You're the one who got your hackles up and took it in that direction.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

It's been a few days since I wrote last.
I don't want to make it seem like it's been perfect ever since she had her "change of heart" so here is the update.

She went on the trip, made it there okay. 

She texts me...a few times a day.

This is huge progress, but here comes the "but."

But, when she texts me, they are pretty much about the trip...when they landed, once they got situated...in fact, everything was fine until last night when the last text was sent by me around 7:00 pm her time. Granted, my text was a two word response that didn't really garner a response, but there were no "good night" texts or "good morning" texts but I could see she had been on FB both later that night and then this morning.

I didn't get another text until a few hours ago, telling me basics about the day.

I intentionally didn't text her after my response last night or this morning. I waited until she finally initiated again. That was a bit bothersome. I would think to myself, "okay, she wants to make it work...but she can't text 'good night' or 'good morning'..." 

I read more of the "Love Must be Tough" book throughout today. Glad I did. 

She also, at times, will text that she misses our son...that's nice, but there is the part of me that thinks, "Hello, I'm...right here beside him."

So, to put it in perspective...comparing to a week ago, things are tons better. Comparing to a few days ago, it makes me wonder a bit.

There is definitely a selfish component to her, which I think most everyone on here has picked up on. She doesn't ask how I'm doing, and asked about our son for the first time this evening (he had been sick). She talks about how busy she is, but that she loves it. She sent me a photo from today as well.

I'd be lying if it didn't cross my mind whether or not it will always be like this. Feeling second place.

But I'm pretty sure it won't. Mainly because I can see it, most others can too, and I won't be able to live like that forever.

She has had a change of heart which turned her back around this much so far. She has asked for forgiveness, but there is a difference between forgiving and reconciling. So we have our work cut our for us.

I do pray for patience, wisdom and boldness...as well as both strength and love.

I don't want to sound disheartened...like I said, compared to a week ago, it's been like night and day. She isn't crawling all over me. But we did kiss before she left and it was nice...long overdue. 

I was considering getting a ride up to the airport and driving her back home initially. At this point, unless I hear her say things like she misses me, or appreciates me or whatever, I'm not going to go. She doesn't appreciate acts like that yet. I want to do that...but I just don't feel it is right at this point.

She is also exhausted, she texted me earlier to say they had seen hundreds of people, had a long line left and it was nearly the end of the day and her legs began to swell from being on them nonstop.

Anyway, that is where things are at. Real life stuff. I can see things from different angles. For now, I'm going to read, be patient, not expect too much. Also keeping my insecurities in check while acknowledging that there is a certain feeling of disrespect still when they can't text "good night" or "good morning".


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## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> At this point, unless I hear her say things like she misses me, or appreciates me or whatever, I'm not going to go.


Thank God. You're starting to learn.


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## Openminded

She's definitely selfish. Whether she can be what you need is unknown right now. Hopefully, she can be. But in the meantime, don't be quite so giving. Pull back some. It won't hurt her to feel a little uncertain and not so sure of you. She needs to step it up.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Agreed.


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## tom67

turnera said:


> Thank God. You're starting to learn.



If you have a tilted kilt or hooters near you go and take pics of you with the help.
Anyway.


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## tom67

Openminded said:


> She's definitely selfish. Whether she can be what you need is unknown right now. Hopefully, she can be. But in the meantime, don't be quite so giving. Pull back some. It won't hurt her to feel a little uncertain and not so sure of you. She needs to step it up.


She needs to see him ready to drop her and move on to someone who respects him.


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## As'laDain

if you want a good night and good morning text, then tell her. 

and while you are at it, tell her the truth. tell her that if you dont get a good night and a good morning text, you will assume she is not serious about wanting to make things work with you. and you will move on.


its not a lie. you have already told us that it gets to you. 

tell her.


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## turnera

Agreed. Otherwise, it's just a sh*t test.


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## honcho

When times were good how was her communication? Did she always just talk about herself or would she interact and ask about your day etc. She is selfish but that isn't a startlingly revelation at this point. From what you wrote it feels more "cold" than selfish to me. 

She is keeping in contact but more like reporting in and accounting for her time more than wanting to engage her spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm

As'laDain said:


> if you want a good night and good morning text, then tell her.
> 
> and while you are at it, tell her the truth. tell her that if you dont get a good night and a good morning text, you will assume she is not serious about wanting to make things work with you. and you will move on.
> 
> 
> its not a lie. you have already told us that it gets to you.
> 
> tell her.


When you have to tell someone to do things like this, it means nothing when they do it.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

She has always tended to come across more self-centered. Not intentionally...she isn't stuck-up or materially high maintenance. 

I even remember in college, most of our conversations were about her...her schooling, her day, what she was doing for the weekend. I didn't mind. I loved her then like I love her now. I thought that maybe it was more about her because she wasn't that into me. I even jokingly had a song that reminded me about her, "I wanna talk about me." But the more I look back, and the more that I know her now, that is a bit of just who she is.

She did things for me...or for us, in better days. She'd do these nice scrapbooks of our trips. She did try to keep the house clean and the had family dinners. One part of her complaints about "us"...or "me" as time went on was that I didn't seem to care about things that mattered to her as much. There is some truth to that. I did try to support what mattered to her but I wasn't always the best listener...this is nothing new to male/female relationships I know.

So, to a decent degree, this isn't new...when you add the past 7-8 months of little-to-nothing, this is huge progress. But when most people compare it to...even common courtesy possibly, it is lacking. And it leaves me feeling dejected and more fed up...which is something I need to feel.

For the longest time I've prayed for this chance...for her to come back...it's here...now to see where it goes, keeping in mind what I've learned since this has started.

I know God can heal this, and us and that it won't be easy. I also know that there is life outside of this if it comes to that. I don't want it, but it is a little comforting in my times of pain, to know that it is there.


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## farsidejunky

SadSamIAm said:


> When you have to tell someone to do things like this, it means nothing when they do it.


And they say _women_ want _men_ to be mind readers...


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## Deejo

Perspective is always an interesting thing. Some see humility, compassion, trust and understanding.

Others see blame-shifting, lying, selfishness and gas lighting. 

Which do you see, Still? 

One the other, or both?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I try to see the former vs the latter, for sure.

It isn't always easy. If often takes faith and even then it isn't free of frustration at times...you just press on.

So this morning she texts me that she got me a souvenir that she thinks I'll like. 
We've been texting back and forth since then to some degree. 

Something like that happens and I'm glad I haven't been acting irritated towards her for things that on my side have felt really frustrating. Glad I have a friend and sister-in-law who can keep me encouraged and grounded before I text something I may regret later.


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## As'laDain

SadSamIAm said:


> When you have to tell someone to do things like this, it means nothing when they do it.


incorrect.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Deejo said:


> Perspective is always an interesting thing. Some see humility, compassion, trust and understanding.
> 
> Others see blame-shifting, lying, selfishness and gas lighting.
> 
> Which do you see, Still?
> 
> One the other, or both?


Very similar on my exposure thread, Deejo. Very different camps of perspective..

Skill, ultimately aim for the truth, self assess well, know who you are, honor your beliefs, preserve your dignity by not adding destruction to destruction. 

I think its wise to vent elsewhere while you navigate her behavior. It helps break unhealthy codependency and moves you more towards a healthier interdependence. My H and I both had to do that and it has done wonders for us.

Something else we had to do was accept that new construction is messy. For a while your new behaviors will be mixed with old behaviors and by nature will create some chaos. We verbally agreed to accept this, operate in grace and move on quickly. That too has helped us tremendously.

Hoping the best for yall.


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## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Something like that happens and I'm glad I haven't been acting irritated towards her for things that on my side have felt really frustrating. Glad I have a friend and sister-in-law who can keep me encouraged and grounded before I text something I may regret later.


So, because she finally said ONE thing about YOU, you're now going to drop the subject?

What are you afraid of?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

It isn't about fear, it's about avoiding needless confrontation based on assumptions that I know why she is doing what she is doing.

If I told her how I felt last night, it would have went back to my looking weak or controlling quite possibly. Was it irritating? Heck yes. But maybe this is her journey right now leading back to a better "us."

I'm trying to remain and appear strong and like whatever it is she is doing is no big deal. If she texts, great, if not, that's fine too...that's how I want to come across right now. 

If I start a disagreement while she is out of the country...and on a mission trip...I just don't see the good in that.


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## As'laDain

if the way your coming across does not line up with how you actually feel, your setting yourself up for failure.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

I don't disagree per se, and I'm writing my feelings on the situation on here and sometimes in my offline journal.

When she is back and we are looking at everything, I will likely bring this situation up. I'd rather have a date night first and get to laughing again.

I just don't think now is the right time and I doubt if I would have brought it up last night, she wouldn't have been souvenir shopping for me this morning and finally sending me photos of her.


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## Deejo

So here is my piece of perspective, Still.

And I'm asking you trust that I'm not trying to poison the well, but share my experience and simply give you more to draw upon while you travel this sh!tty road.

My ex did, said, and behaved in a very similar fashion to what your wife is doing now. She'd reach out, she'd express a desire for things to be better, remember the past, express limited compassion and affection;

All while she was f*cking another dude.

Not insinuating your wife is doing the same. And your advice remains the same, do what you need to do for you. If what you are doing and how you are behaving is with the covert hope that you will 'earn' your wife back, it will fail. You will be angry and heartbroken.

Make your choices for you and your life irregardless of the outcome, and regardless of what that outcome is, you will be well positioned to deal with it.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

You know, I think most of the changes I am attempting...they make me a better man. I do have a beautiful wife who had been my best friend in college and for the earlier part of our marriage. There are things I did compromise on and I am addressing them.

One of the things in the back of my mind that I do wonder about at times, is if we can ever get to a point where we do truly accept each other for who we are again...imperfections and all. 

Part of me says "yes" because we had before. A lot of this...faith-based gauntlet of hurdles and rejection began after her new friend came along. I'm seeing more of the wife I married again little by little, so I'm hoping I can maintain the changes I have set forth but that we can lift each other up instead of put one another down if we do fall.

Either way...even if it doesn't work out, I will be better for this. I can't say the same for the kids. I still think it will scar them more than it will show, at least initially. I know they are "resilient"...but I tend to think that is more of a scapegoat technique we use when we, as adults, can't keep our own crap together. I know they CAN be fine...but it is still something they shouldn't have to learn how to be fine from, if that makes sense.

Some, there is just no choice, the relationship is horrible and that is that...this one isn't on the that level. So I still pray for reconciliation...successful reconciliation...not the kind that puts me back on here looking for help again in three years. :-/


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## Blossom Leigh

A while back I recommended digging into the scriptures to fight this onslaught of non Biblical info from the friend, and even though I felt is was actually being used to cover for a current affair, I still recommend it. 

I would also make sure at some point to make sure your wife understands she was using "we need to get divorced since we started as an affair" to intentionally cover or facilitate another affair. That REALLY needs to be addressed head on.


----------



## LongWalk

How is the father of your step daughters coping with your wife's behavior?

The Christian mission work is all part of her deception. Partially, it may be self deception. Every time she is forced to think about fixing your marriage, she can put thought into her higher calling. Devotion becomes a refugee from responsibility


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## Blossom Leigh

LongWalk said:


> How is the father of your step daughters coping with your wife's behavior?
> 
> The Christian mission work is all part of her deception. Partially, it may be self deception. Every time she is forced to think about fixing your marriage, she can put thought into her higher calling. Devotion becomes a refugee from responsibility


Great point LW and very accurate. She needs high enough self awareness to spot when she is "escaping" no matter where or to whom the escape is. 

One program that addresses this propensity to escape is Welcome to Adult Children of Alcoholics - World Service Organization, Inc.. a lot of twelve step programs address escapism head on. I recommend this as part of this recovery.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SadSamIAm View Post
When you have to tell someone to do things like this, it means nothing when they do it.



As'laDain said:


> incorrect.


The text thing is pretty specific that 'Still' is asking for, but what he wants from her in the general sense isn't something he should have to ask for.

You shouldn't have to tell someone who loves you to do thoughtful things for you. To think of you and not just themselves. 

And if you do have to tell them, it won't really mean anything and worst of all, it won't last.


----------



## As'laDain

SadSamIAm said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by SadSamIAm View Post
> When you have to tell someone to do things like this, it means nothing when they do it.
> 
> 
> 
> The text thing is pretty specific that 'Still' is asking for, *but what he wants from her in the general sense isn't something he should have to ask for.*
> 
> well then he shouldnt care that he isnt getting it. but he does care. and that, is how covert contracts are born.
> 
> 
> You shouldn't have to tell someone who loves you to do thoughtful things for you. To think of you and not just themselves.
> 
> why? people only know how to love each other in two situations: fantasy, or in honest communication. which one is easier to accomplish?
> 
> And if you do have to tell them, it won't really mean anything and worst of all, it won't last.
> 
> incorrect


----------



## SadSamIAm

As'laDain said:


> Originally Posted by SadSamIAm View Post
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by SadSamIAm View Post
> When you have to tell someone to do things like this, it means nothing when they do it.
> 
> 
> 
> The text thing is pretty specific that 'Still' is asking for, but what he wants from her in the general sense isn't something he should have to ask for.
> 
> well then he shouldnt care that he isnt getting it. but he does care. and that, is how covert contracts are born.
> 
> 
> You shouldn't have to tell someone who loves you to do thoughtful things for you. To think of you and not just themselves.
> 
> why? people only know how to love each other in two situations: fantasy, or in honest communication. which one is easier to accomplish?
> 
> And if you do have to tell them, it won't really mean anything and worst of all, it won't last.
> 
> incorrect


Incorrect


----------



## honcho

My stbx always tended to be self centered. She would rarely inquire about my day but an hour after I got home from work I knew every detail of hers. What she was doing always took priority over what I was doing. Most of the time it never bothered me but at times I did feel "second fiddle" and it would. 

My stbx would rarely say hello or simple cordial things in texts unless she wanted something. Then she would be very polite to get what she wanted. While together I never paid much attention to the pattern but after she left it really became obvious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stillkindofhopefull

She has improved with texting recently. She also said to check with her mom if I am concerned and can't get ahold of her. That's a step in the right direction since she is encouraging more contact with her family. 

LongWalk, the girl's biological dad is wanting custody of the girls after this school year. At the time, I sure didn't blame him and was pretty convinced that that was why she came back to me. Probably is. She said it was that and the letter and the message of forgiveness over the past 3 days that "woke her up" to what she was doing to her family.

Her attorney told her the custody wouldn't change and that they could probably get child support this time around. I think I'm going to encourage not got for child supports. We don't need it. I don't blame him as the dad for doing what he did...Lord knows I was going for more than he was, so I see his perspective, and it will only create more tension.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Honcho, there is definitely that aspect...our wives sound similar from that standpoint for sure.

It's something I've been asking myself now if I want to go back to or if it can change. That, by itself, wouldn't be enough but when you put it all together...after all this, you consider it. 

But she was a lot like that before. I'm not going to hold it against her now as a deciding factor.


----------



## aine

I dont know what age your wife is but she sounds somewhat confused to me, is she peri menopausal?


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

36.

There has been some definite confusion. 
But the majority of what she actually does is a lot more positive than it has been in a long time.

We were able to joke and laugh tonight.

I found myself, at times, asking myself if this is still what I really wanted. In the book "Love Must be Tough" he said it would likely happen.

But my answer is stil yes.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Things continue to slowly move forward...usually with intermittent bouts of doubt and frustration mixed with feelings of anxiety. Some of the bad feelings are justified...some are me over-analyzing to the point I lose sleep or don't focus as well during the day. But overall, better.

A couple examples...she posted things on FB yesterday that just didn't seen like she was happy. I wanted to ask her about it and wanted to be irritated because I'm thinking that if we are trying to reconcile and she is posting things deeper and more meaningful on FB than what we discuss, well...that isn't a good sign. I didn't bite on it throughout the day. Early this morning while she was working, I woke up and texted her and said she just didn't seem as happy today and asked if she was okay. She texted back and said she was fine but was upset with the custody deal with her ex and the girls that she has to address soon. 

After re-reading the FB posts, they made more sense. On the flipside, I still wish she would have told me more. Or at least post something good about us, which she hasn't yet. But that is something that was really bothering me but didn't have quite the same negative implication I had assumed.

I sent her flowers last Wednesday...they got there to her work on Thursday but were supposed to be there Wednesday night for her shift. So they re-sent them last night. She texted me and thanked me for them (this was while I was irritated about the FB posts but before we had discussed it). AFTER we had the quickie text about the FB posts, she sent me a photo of the flowers along with smiley faces and heart faces or whatever those things are.

Today I met her and her parents at church but was running a little late with the boy. I ended up initially sitting in the row behind them as the songs played. I started getting more and more irritated that she didn't save me a seat (she was sitting in the middle of the row). I began imagining my response to the seemingly humiliating seating situation if it were to stay that way during the service. As the songs ended and everyone was praying I got up and moved to sit with a friend also sitting alone (who is also in a similar boat). Once we all sat down she looked back to where I was at and then found me where I was sitting...she made everyone move over a bit and motioned me to come back up there. So I did. Everything else went fine. She was making little jokes at times and we both gave each other "the look" in a funny "that's you!" manner when the pastor started talking about belief systems and how some just may be wrong.

We then went out to eat with her parents and I ended up having the kids come over to our/my house while she slept after having worked last night's shift.

Are there still issues? Yes. We still don't talk very effectively. We still don't tell each other we miss each other and similar statements. She does text me now and we can have ongoing conversations. She did hug me today and it was longer and closer and tighter. She is wearing both bands.

My insecurities still play a role in things when we aren't together...meaning my thoughts when I'm alone and we haven't talked in a bit. But I hide all of the pretty well.

My parent's are pretty upset at us working things out...because my mom sees the same FB posts and nothing about her saying things to me and whatnot and is concerned that she is just using me basically. And I get it. And I understand her perspective. But this is still my marriage and although it is still hard, I am not going to now say "nope, I don't know that you will never do something like this again so I am going to ensure you can't by divorcing you now." This is bigger than that and we are adults. We need to do everything we can to make amends before loading our kids with the burden of having to deal with what would be our "Christian" divorce.

She is trying, and she seems legitimately happier when I'm around even if she isn't banging down my door.


----------



## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> My insecurities still play a role in things when we aren't together...meaning my thoughts when I'm alone and we haven't talked in a bit. But I hide all of that pretty well.


You sure about that?


----------



## bandit.45

Listen to your mom.


----------



## Tobyboy

I hope to god you don't get tossed aside once the custody battle with her ex is resolved.


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## CarlaRose

I've been following, but I really don't follow. Hope you get the difference in what I mean.

You sound like a really nice guy, but I imagine you've heard the saying "Nice guys finish last." You're headed for more heartache. No man worth respecting would allow a woman to lead him by the nose the way you are doing. I'm trying to tell you your wife has no respect for you, or she wouldn't have left the way she did. And now, you're still just being a nice guy.

A woman needs her man to be more forceful and less laid back than you are. You just let her walk over you and still ready to take her back in a heartbeat. And not only ready to take her back in a heartbeat, but on her terms too. Everything she says is fine with you. Everything she does is fine with you too unless it's something that warrants doubt that you and she will get back together. You keep grasping at straws.

She cannot respect you. She's actually trying very hard to respect you, but you really make it difficult. She needs to be able to respect you. I thought you read the 180 and the MAP all that stuff early on in this thread? What happened to all of that? You have to find some self confidence and start pulling back from her. If you lose her, then you weren't going to get her back in the first place. All this was just going to go on long enough for her to get whatever this is providing. And believe me, it is providing her with SOMETHING because nobody gets back together like this. She has no respect for you and no real love either. She would be jumping your bones and unable to stay away if she truly wanted you. Instead, she needs you, so she's stringing you along while you keep looking for something to hold on to. She gives you very little, doesn't she?

You have to be willing to lose her in order to get her back for real. Pulling away will give her renewed respect that will get out of the same fear you have been experiencing. Some kind of respect is better than none at least. You are too available to her, and you're not being manly enough. Stop her from walking over you. Be willing to make the effort to earn her respect by showing her you are not a wimp. Otherwise, you have nothing to look forward to because whatever it is she is waiting for, you will be history once she gets it. And I'm thinking that being able to say she is married to you gives her an advantage in this impending custody case, at least in her mind.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

She just left with the kids after going to one of her women's church groups.

She got to talking about how much of a difference having her own girlfriends makes, particularly from church because she hasn't really had any since college and lost touch with them during her first marriage because he always got mad when she wanted to do something with friends or family (her family attests to this...she visited them maybe once or twice a year and that was typically begrudgingly, on his part, and they only lived about 2 hours away. They had always been close growing up). She said it was part of what "led up to everything"...never having any girlfriends except her one sister. The others were her friends because they were married to my friends. That part is true. I always wanted her to have her own friends, she just...didn't. Now she does and you can tell the difference it makes in her. 

This time she held me...and just held me, tight. Then she kissed me. The first real kiss, completely initiated by her. I told her "it took you long enough." and she laughed a little bit and hugged me tight again before leaving.

They came and took the "for sale" sign out of our yard just before my wife came by. I told her and she smiled and said "Good! I think the girls were getting concerned we weren't really going to do it." and then gave me this look and nervous (but good) smile that seemed to say "Are you sure your ready? Because we are going to do this." 


On a different topic, I do know that I come across as weaker and more needy on here. I do have those moments and I share them on here so that, assuming we are the success story I believe we can be, if others read this, they will see that even though we made it, and even though being stronger and planning a life without them (whether you want it or not) was vital to it...you still have those inside moments where you feel almost as weak as you did on day one. You just learn to do your best to never let them see you like that. And sometimes it isn't perfect and they do sense it. When that happens, you feel like crap again but you just get back up and back on track moving forward as best you can. And pray.

If this works...and I believe it will now more than I have at any other point, the one thing I would tell people going through what I went through, that may differ from a lot of the other advice, is to let them know you love them throughout it all. Not every day, not even very often. But I made it clear on her birthday and on Valentine's Day that I loved her. I was still going on with my life as best I could but I just believed that if she was going to divorce me, she was going to have to walk away from clear love. And if she did that, as much as it would have hurt, I would have been able to meet someone else and not look back either...not having to wonder "What if I had told her? What if she really didn't think I did because I always basically seemed happy and stopped talking to her and move on with my life like it wasn't that big of a deal?"

In real life you do have those ups and downs, I've listed most of mine in pretty much "real time" here. But in real life you have to have a focus...make it work, or break it off. You have to do your best to overcome your anger, fear, anxiety and insecurities with peace, hope, faith and love. Sounds cheesy I know, but basically, that is what God is. God is love, those who dwell in love dwell in God and He in them. So then you look at the attributes of love and we all know what those are...love is kind, love is pure, it is not self-seeking, not boastful, etc... (my paraphrase). So if you want God to be in this, you have to respect who/what He is...and trust me...it takes more strength to show love when you feel hate or anger or frustration or hurt...than to show the hate, and show the anger, and show the frustration and hurt.

At any rate, this is where I'm at. It's taken a LONG time to get here, but assuming we stay on track and make this happen, it will have been worth it because we will both be better for it as individuals and as a couple and we will both will be able to help others that go through something similar.

I wouldn't wish what I've been through on anyone, but I would pray for the result that we are getting to, for everyone.


----------



## aine

jld said:


> Blonde, we need your wisdom here. Far is doing a great job, but you would be a great addition.
> 
> NF, humility is one of the characteristics of a Christian man. We are trying to reach her heart. His vulnerability and transparency can do that.


The Christian approach to these matters may be very different from the non Christian approach. Forgiveness can be given to the wife (this does not mean that he forgets or sweeps under the rug what she has done). Forgiveness does not have to come with absolute trust in the guilty party either, it just means he is willing to forgive and move on to work on matters. Trust and reconciliation may or may not come later, but it is a first move. As someone said, she is on the ledge, not thinking straight, he needs to move her from that position if there is any chance at all of them making it. He doesn't have to take all the responsibility of why she did what she did but he played a role in it, and he is merely acknowledging that to her.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Just to update, things are starting to smooth out a little more.
I'm finally starting to lose my feelings of anxiousness. The more we talk the more she is opening up. I don't force the conversations...like I had wanted to...not for the sake of forcing them but just to help those moments of anxiousness that started cropping up.

She now openly admits about how she screwed up big time but she does want me to understand where her head was at that led up to things. 

She acknowledges that the situation with the kids, along with the letter I gave her the day before and the church service on forgiveness the day after, all played together to wake her up as to what she was doing to us as a family and a couple. She did say that had it not happened she isn't sure if things would have changed...because basically it had been pretty easy up until then...she was in her own little world. But afterwards, it was like the blinders fell off and she could see what she was doing to all of us.

She still wants to take things slow...as do I. But I see my wife again. The kids are happier. One of the girls came back to the martial arts class with me tonight, same night as her cousin who looks like her twin even though they are cousins by marriage only.

My wife hugs me and is starting to look for alone time for us again without me initiating. She made a comment about how I'd probably like to get a piece and reminded me that it has been just as long for her since she has gotten any and looking forward to a date night. I think that was partly her way of indirectly restating that she never met the guy or did anything physical otherwise there was no need for the comment if it wasn't true.

She is planning our vacation and talks about our future again. 

Still have our work cut out for us, but I like this road much better.


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## farsidejunky

Stay the course, Still. She is coming to you. Still rooting for you two.


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## aine

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Just to update, things are starting to smooth out a little more.
> I'm finally starting to lose my feelings of anxiousness. The more we talk the more she is opening up. I don't force the conversations...like I had wanted to...not for the sake of forcing them but just to help those moments of anxiousness that started cropping up.
> 
> She now openly admits about how she screwed up big time but she does want me to understand where her head was at that led up to things.
> 
> She acknowledges that the situation with the kids, along with the letter I gave her the day before and the church service on forgiveness the day after, all played together to wake her up as to what she was doing to us as a family and a couple. She did say that had it not happened she isn't sure if things would have changed...because basically it had been pretty easy up until then...she was in her own little world. But afterwards, it was like the blinders fell off and she could see what she was doing to all of us.
> 
> She still wants to take things slow...as do I. But I see my wife again. The kids are happier. One of the girls came back to the martial arts class with me tonight, same night as her cousin who looks like her twin even though they are cousins by marriage only.
> 
> My wife hugs me and is starting to look for alone time for us again without me initiating. She made a comment about how I'd probably like to get a piece and reminded me that it has been just as long for her since she has gotten any and looking forward to a date night. I think that was partly her way of indirectly restating that she never met the guy or did anything physical otherwise there was no need for the comment if it wasn't true.
> 
> She is planning our vacation and talks about our future again.
> 
> Still have our work cut out for us, but I like this road much better.


Don't forget, all things are possible!


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Thanks, Far! I do appreciate your support in all of this.

Aine, you're right, they are. 

Our situation was pretty bleak to say the least.

I don't want to act like it is all blue skies now, just that they are more blue than they have been in some time. For that, I am thankful.


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## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> basically it had been pretty easy up until then...she was in her own little world. But afterwards, it was like the blinders fell off and she could see what she was doing to all of us.


This is why you have to make the affair - or any other 'wayward' activity - hard to carry on. Make it uncomfortable. No kissing butt. Showing consequences. That's how people decide to stop doing the harmful stuff - when it becomes hard to continue.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

That is where I'm stuck a bit. Consequences. 
This is why...
She is facing consequences for all this through the custody situation her ex brought into it. It was a large part of what opened her eyes.
She is doing much better. She did say this would be slow.
But now the girls know they are moving back home and are excited. 
I'm excited but on the same hand, we haven't had any of the "hard" conversations yet. I would like to have had at least one before the kids knew we were getting back together.
Because of this, I don't want rock that boat anymore. I don't want to shake them up again.
The biggest issue I have is that it IS going slow. So I don't know what is a red flag vs a healing heart.
She texts but not as often as I'd like.
When we do talk about anything important she doesn't shy away from it...like saying that she did stop the divorce because I deserved the reassurance to know that neither of us could just call it quits again.
She booked our vacation, talks about working more to help make up for the financial situation she got us in but feels that if this is what it took to get is back on track, it was worth it. I agree.
I guess I struggle with knowing how much to "engage with her" so she knows I am present vs how much space to give her so she doesn't feel trapped.
She realizes she got herself in a mess.
If we were to not work out at this point I'm sure her ex would pursue custody again...and I would be, too.
I don't want that at all so I'm just trying to pace things without getting uptight that I'd like a little more...togetherness sooner rather than later.
We do joke about sexual things more. We have started more hugging and kissing.
So really...I'm told this kind of thing can take years...so maybe this all isn't too bad?
It's still so much better than it was. I can be assertive, I just want to "choose my battles" wisely.

Are there others in here that have successful R threads you would recommend me read?


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## turnera

Are you two attending MC at least twice monthly? If not, why not? These are the things you should be telling your MC - in front of your wife, and getting her response.


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## honcho

Choosing battles wisely is one of the hurdles. Guys want to fix. It seems we all want to fix everything now. Patience is an art. 

That being said I tend to get the feeling her pace is more avoidance than taking things slow. 

Part of both of your issues is that you danced around concerns. You gonna have to push each other out of comfort zones.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stillkindofhopefull

We haven't been to MC yet. In part because we are both a little leery from our first attempt but also because the one that is recommended to go to, is an hour from where we live and 1.5 hours from where I work. She works nights when she does work so logistics to make it and be consistent haven't been there.

Today has been a good example of where I'm at. We texted back and forth a bit this morning, then nothing... I knew she was tired, but I guess I'd still like to see a text or two seeing how things were going. 

She had plans to go out tonight with her girlfriends. I was initially put off a bit that that is what she wanted to do with her free time...in her defense, she knew I had our son and she has been on this kick about having girlfriends (which I support).

I had texted her about picking up my son...didn't hear anything for 3 hours...I was getting worked up in my head. I knew she was going to watch a movie with one of our girls and their friends and moms but I was sure it had to have ended and that she could have texted me. It was in between the text I sent and before i heard back that I posted the previous thread.

So I finally called her...halfway wanting to cop a bit of an attitude but when she answered you could hear that she was still in the theater and that they were all leaving. She was telling me how good it was and that her and our middle child were going to come by for a bit...so...I was a bit worked up over nothing...and that happens.

They came over and she said she wasn't going out tonight. She was exhausted but that she could come here if I wanted her to.

So we got sushi and she brought some movies...we only had time for one, and to be honest I was still a little uncomfortable...but as the night went on we sat in our big chair together and she ended up holding on to me and doing her little foot move which...is a good sign.

Our son has been sick lately. We put him to bed and I was going to let her lay beside him (usually I do) and she said we could both do it...we haven't done that since before she left. It was nice.

So see...in this situation, I'm glad I didn't rock the boat with assuming that something was wrong that wasn't. She is coming back early in the morning to stay with my son while I do military duty then come back tomorrow night to watch the movie we didn't get to.


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## Wazza

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Are there others in here that have successful R threads you would recommend me read?


There are various people on TAM who have successfully reconciled (I am one of them) but I haven't seen that many successful reconciliation threads in that continue in the long term here. I think the successful reconcilers mostly end up moving on. 

You talked about consequences. Why do they matter to you? She did what she did, it can never be undone. If you are going to reconcile you have to accept and deal with it. You presumably believe (or at least hope) she is remorseful. Why are you interested in consequences? What do you hope to achieve?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I can see how that would be Wazza...regarding moving on from TAM. This has been a big help though, for sure.

The consequences aren't something I necessarily want to apply for the sake of applying them. I feel like she has learned a lot...we both have. I read about them a lot on here so I consider it because I don't want to end up here 3 years down the road because i rug swept something now.

I think overall we are doing better. She continues to talk about our future more like it is a given. We don't talk about it a ton, but when we do it is consistent. 

I appreciate your advice and nice to hear from you after your successful R!

Thanks!


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## Stillkindofhopefull

She came over last night. I watched our son while she went for a run then she went to her home, showered, made dinner and brought it over to bake here while we watched a movie.

We had a good talk. A needed one. Even though it was good, there leaves more progress to be made.

For me, as long as I see progress, I don't make any potentially damaging demands, but I do bring up the points that may lead up to demands. Like the fact that this guy, from what I can tell, is still on "block" from me on FB. She doesn't know why, that she never personally blocked me from seeing him to begin with, that he might have but she didn't know that. She re-iterated that they were only friends but that it went too far, she regrets it and that they have no contact. I asked her why she wrote the letters...and never sent them to him. She said it had been her way to kind of get her thoughts out, like a journal, and never did send any of them. She said that she does understand why I did what I did (when this all went down she hated me for it at the time) and stated that whatever I told him must have worked because he never contacts her, at all. I could actually tell, the way she said it, that now that it is over, I did gain more respect from her after that. But again, once I did it, the next day she jumped ship, cut electricity, separated phone services, moved out, etc...she was p:ssed.

She also began to cry as she told me that she was actually thankful in the end that I figured it out and everything came to an end.

There were good points and some concerning points during the conversation...you could probably pick up on some based on what I just wrote.

Then of all things she rented a movie...rom-com that actually dealt with a sex-focused theme that I found completely ironic...but that also seemed a lot more like the wife that I used to know. Last night FINALLY ended well...I'll leave that at that...but finally! 

Our son woke up and we had to stop things and get him situated but she was fine and made comments about it being the life of parents.

She agreed to do MC if I wanted...she isn't knocking down the MC's door but she is willing. Again, that can be both good or concerning.

There is still an underlying issue in that she put out on FB about how bad she was feeling today, but didn't mention it to me. I went by to stay with 2 kids while she took another to a game and she is feeling pretty rotten but the fact that we aren't talkig about it but that she is on FB isn't exactly comforting but also not worth confrontation, just worth noting. 

Could I be more direct and lay down more specific boundaries and insist on them? I could. But I'm liking the overall progress and I do think to myself that if I cant make someone love me then insisting on rules at this point isn't going to make a trapped person feel free. I have to ask myself if the current progress vs problems are worth moving forward like we are and at this point, I think they are. I am basically trying to "date" her again and draw her back in on her own accord so that the "rules" become more of an agreed-to, healthy set of boundaries we set as a couple as she gets more back into me.

There is a risk in it. I get it. We still have a few notable hurdles. But the pros outweigh the cons. 

She told me last night on her way out that she loved me. She initiated. It wasn't strong. More like "old times." Not this "oh thank you for still being here through all the crap i put you through!" Type of "I love you" as she gazed deep into my eyes...but she said if and she initiated it.

We also joked how I had planned that the lead up to the first time leading to intimacy again was probably going to be after an all-day "date night" of me romancing her but instead it was in the middle of a movie break after trying to get our son to go back to sleep without waking him back up so we could get back to our movie about a married couple trying to get their sex life back to par. That things we see in our hwas don't always work out that way in real life...but that in this case, at least it is working out.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

That is supposed to say "head" not "hwas" but I can't edit from my phone.


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## jld

_She also began to cry as she told me that she was actually thankful in the end that I figured it out and everything came to an end._

I think this is the best possible outcome when there is an intervention like you describe. She feels like you acted in her best interest, when she could not.

I think the youth minister is just embarrassed by his actions, and hoping not to lose his job.


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## turnera

Personally, I would not move forward with another 'date' until (1) she sets up MC and you two start attending regularly (i.e., she doesn't bail on it when it gets hard) and (2) she permanently blocks this man for LIFE and proves it to you. That would be the strong you saying you love her but you'll do without her unless she addresses things that concern you.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I bought the "His Needs/Her Needs" book this morning, one for each of us. They should be here Monday. 

She continues to improve. Today she kept me up to date with my son, he's been sick and can go down hill fast. 

We got to texting and she told me we make a good team when we aren't fighting each other and told me she missed cooking for our family and that she was trying a new recipe that she was hoping I'd come over for dinner for.

A couple other comments like that...that I didn't have to fish for. 

Getting slowly better but the progress is seemingly starting to pick up even a little quicker.


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## turnera

Great reply to that:

"I'd love to come over for that meal. Honestly, though, I was hoping to see you taking the initiative to sign us up for MC by now, and you haven't. So I think maybe I'll wait and see if that happens first. But thanks for the offer."


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## Wazza

If I understand you correctly, she still is in contact with the minister on Facebook, and you are blocked and cannot see his posts. 

Have I understood correctly?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

The ups and downs continue. But the ups are increasing and the downs decreasing. 

The downs, when they do happen, do leave me reconsidering things at times. In the book "Love Must be Tough" they discuss the possibility that the spurned spouse, once things turn around, can actually decide that they want out...and caution the reader not to do it either. That has happened to me a few times. I have wondered if I really want to stay in it.

But as the downs fade and we can talk more, that wears away the hurt and resentment which is an absolute must.

She could tell something was bothering me yesterday so I told her what it was about...the EA...she apologized again and said she doesn't know what else to do for me to believe her...we then went on Easter shopping for the kids and the day went fine. 

We talked more tonight. Getting better. She texted me she loved me. That is the first time since I think July.


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## aine

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> The ups and downs continue. But the ups are increasing and the downs decreasing.
> 
> The downs, when they do happen, do leave me reconsidering things at times. In the book "Love Must be Tough" they discuss the possibility that the spurned spouse, once things turn around, can actually decide that they want out...and caution the reader not to do it either. That has happened to me a few times. I have wondered if I really want to stay in it.
> 
> But as the downs fade and we can talk more, that wears away the hurt and resentment which is an absolute must.
> 
> She could tell something was bothering me yesterday so I told her what it was about...the EA...she apologized again and said she doesn't know what else to do for me to believe her...we then went on Easter shopping for the kids and the day went fine.
> 
> We talked more tonight. Getting better. She texted me she loved me. That is the first time since I think July.


I guess it is going to be a long hard road to recovery for you both but if you are willing to do the hard work then nothing is impossible


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## Stillkindofhopefull

You know, a big part of the "downs" deals with my outlook at times...my assumptions really. If things don't go about the way I anticipate, I don't get "upset" really, but I do tend to assume I know why still and then I justify that assumption with the recent past as "proof" and I bring myself down because of it. Once I bring myself down then I start to wonder if it is worth it.

In the end...I'd say 8 times out of 10, when I bring it up, or even if I don't bring it up and we are just spending time together, she will say or do something that puts it to rest and then I wonder why I wondered or worried so much to begin with.

There is a book called "Battlefield of the Mind" by Joyce Meyer that has been very helpful...I have the devotional version, but man that has been spot on with my self doubt and pessimism when I get it.

I would encourage anyone to read that book. 

My wife last night acknowledged again that she was in a different mindset...making horrible choices and finally realized what she was doing to her and those around her. She knows things may still never be the same because of some of the things, but she is being honest in those moments...and I can see my wife again, and it makes all of this worth it because we both desire a stronger, better "us."

She also agreed to, on Saturday night, to total transparency regarding passwords to social media and whatever falls into the category of needing transparency.


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## Tobyboy

What is she doing to make sure this doesn't happen again?
What actions???
Going to IC?
Reading books?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stillkindofhopefull

We have ordered "His Needs/Her Needs," it should be here today. Expected it yesterday.
We are both okay with counseling, the one that is most recommended isn't logistically convenient and I haven't looked any further.
She is working a couple more night shifts now trying to help with the financial mess we have been left with. 
She also has been having to deal with the custody paperwork which has been a big part of her focus, it is due this Friday.
On top of that...she just has...female issues which play their own role in things.
I brought all of this up last night...the feeling that our marriage was more back-burner and she agreed that it is to a point but with everything else going on, she is trying to make the time for us to have "our time" and I can see it. 
Sometimes I don't really push for it...spending all of our time together right now, because I'm still sitting back a little and watching. But I can also tell that she has a LOT on her plate.

That's why when we do talk, like last night, it makes a big difference in my outlook...the more open and honest we are the more comfortable I feel with the future.

She knows that I feel it is very important to get everything out in the open, no rug sweeping. I just don't want to add to her sense of being overwhelmed at this point. 12 hour shifts, issues with her cycle and the upcoming due date for the custody ppw, on top of a sick kid and taking care of the girls (who are currently with their dad)...her days a flying by but sleep deprived at the same time.

I try to understand where she is at right now, while still looking for red flags outside of the issues caused by being so busy and stressed.


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## Tobyboy

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> We have ordered "His Needs/Her Needs," it should be here today. Expected it yesterday.
> We are both okay with counseling, the one that is most recommended isn't logistically convenient and I haven't looked any further.
> She is working a couple more night shifts now trying to help with the financial mess we have been left with.
> She also has been having to deal with the custody paperwork which has been a big part of her focus, it is due this Friday.
> On top of that...she just has...female issues which play their own role in things.
> I brought all of this up last night...the feeling that our marriage was more back-burner and she agreed that it is to a point but with everything else going on, she is trying to make the time for us to have "our time" and I can see it.
> Sometimes I don't really push for it...spending all of our time together right now, because I'm still sitting back a little and watching. But I can also tell that she has a LOT on her plate.
> 
> That's why when we do talk, like last night, it makes a big difference in my outlook...the more open and honest we are the more comfortable I feel with the future.
> 
> She knows that I feel it is very important to get everything out in the open, no rug sweeping. I just don't want to add to her sense of being overwhelmed at this point. 12 hour shifts, issues with her cycle and the upcoming due date for the custody ppw, on top of a sick kid and taking care of the girls (who are currently with their dad)...her days a flying by but sleep deprived at the same time.
> 
> I try to understand where she is at right now, while still looking for red flags outside of the issues caused by being so busy and stressed.


I'm going to be honest here. It sounds like your making excuses for her. She's gone on mission trip, out with the girls....yet won't seek therapy for herself!!! All you've gotten is some pretty words and promises.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

You are observant. For example, you write:


> My wife hugs me and is starting to look for alone time for us again without me initiating. She made a comment about how I'd probably like to get a piece and reminded me that it has been just as long for her since she has gotten any and looking forward to a date night. I think that was partly her way of indirectly restating that she never met the guy or did anything physical otherwise there was no need for the comment if it wasn't true.


Your read on her statement is very perceptive. The way she said it was very superficial. She sounds that way because she is not a super slick liar manipulator. The reason she wanted your out of the way while she court OM is because, and this is part of cheater modus operandi, she wanted space to for OM to slip his godly hand around her buns.

In this respect she is very like Kolors' wife. His thread is a good one for you to read absolutely, for he reconstructed a better life without his WAW/WW. She is sorry about the divorce but he is not.

On the reconciliation side there is Road Scholar, who is, like you Christian. For him faith and saving the family for the children was important. He and his wife seem to be making it. His wife did not have sex with him for 6 months during false reconciliation. She was saving the pvssy of OM and he found out by looking at her phone. She was drinking a Gray Goose vodka in a bar and she texted OM wishing that he were there.

LostLove also had a WW who walked away and wanted space so she could try finding a male solution to her existential dilemmas. At long last after at least 3 or 4 guys in the space of a year she wanted her husband back. But he had found someone new after hanging on a long time. We never learned how it ended.

The end of your story is uncertain. You see your wife's character failings rather clearly. JLD will be happy is you lead her and make a good life since none of us is perfect. 

To some degree your wife insists on reconciliation on her terms. She has shown that she is capable of blowing everything up to get a romantic story ending. Is she cured of this?


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## honcho

Be careful of sitting back and watching. One of the factors in the demise of my marriage I believe was doing that. My stbx had a bad job situation, fathers Alzheimer's was starting to get bad, her beloved dog had cancer and "females issues". We were letting life run us instead of us running life so to speak.

The timing never seems to be right to discuss things. The two of you just have to make time to do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

I agree honcho... If I had sat back and watched in my situation we would have failed. I HAD to know work was being done that heightened the success rate that this would never happen again. He fought me for three months on it in 2013. I found a comprehensive affair recovery class and that got the ball rolling to make sure progression was made. During his resistance, he literally said to our counselor. "I think she thinks that if I take that class she can hold me responsible." I turned to him and said "I can hold you responsible today, there is no delay required." He got my point..... we signed up for the class.

I had to go through two litmus tests with him before he really dug deep and got the help he needed as an individual. So, don't be afraid to keep those standards high and hold her feet to the fire Skilled if you have doubts.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Wanted to do a quick update.

Fortunately things continue to improve. 
Communication is at about 80% comfortable now. This is huge since a couple months ago it was at a deficit of anything. 

She had been working on ppw for the custody suit with her ex and that was finished yesterday. There were a couple nights I needed to work on my own stuff but I'd help her with hers. I wanted to get past that point of stress for her and then see if anything changed. It did. You could see and hear the relief in her after she finished that part and had gotten some sleep. Our son had been sick and that was worrisome as well.

I say all that to say that I'm glad I didn't insist on too much focus on us at the time. We did talk about it and she never backed down from talking, I just didn't bring up all of my thoughts.

Since she finished the ppw, we've been..."together" 3 times in about 24 hours. I think that is a new record for the past 2+ years. 

Now, the truth behind that is, she is willing...she isn't seducing me by any means but she is completely willing. She told me that the sex doesn't have to "be like what I used to look at" and isn't usually like that if I want it often. That matches up with what I read in MMSLP, too. 

She also gets a little more into it and we both get a little more comfortable it seems.

There are still issues on the table we haven't fully discussed but everytime we are alone long enough to talk about anything substantial we end up doing so. 

I appreciate the recent posts. 

I don't know which of the other stories I most relate to...I'm ready for no more drama for sure. I guess we all are. So...so far, so good and we will keep pressing forward.


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## Dedicated2Her

Your emotions are totally tied to the result. Long term......you need to figure out why you are so insecure because it does bleed out into other parts of your life. From the Godly perspective, it screams severe lack of faith. Fix it


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## turnera

What are you going to put more life in YOUR life? Stuff that's apart from her?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

My emotions are tied to the result...it's my marriage and family. What are they supposed to be tied to? I guess I don't understand your point. 

As far as a lack of faith goes...that is part of it, but not all of it. If I had no faith I'd have never gotten this far. If I could live every day for the rest of my life on complete faith, I'd love to. I try, and often I do fine and sometimes I don't. I tend to post it when I don't on here on purpose so that others going through reconciliation can see that it isn't necessarily an easy road, just a worthy one.

Wasn't it Elijah, the prophet, that challenged all the false prophets to burn a sacrifice...only to be the only one to do it, after dousing it with water...and then the next day fled in terror after the queen wanted him dead? Faith can fluctuate with the best of us. It is a continuous road we walk down. 

As far as putting more life into my life, I have plenty going, between a new clinic, a couple companies and a martial arts school and church, I have a lot going on.

We are doing okay. Everyone says it is a long process, and it is. At this point things are the same...a lot better than they were but not without issues. I try to choose my battles while still dating her along the way. It isn't always easy, but my family is together and I see potential so I'm in.


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## turnera

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> My emotions are tied to the result...it's my marriage and family. What are they supposed to be tied to? I guess I don't understand your point.


You can't control her. Heck you can't even control your kids, not really. So by putting YOUR life in the hands of ANOTHER person, their whims, their wishes and choices, you are setting yourself up for insanity or deep depression. How could it not? If YOUR view of happiness is ONLY tied up in this ONE person choosing to stay married to you, not cheat on you, treat you with respect - ALL things over which you have NO control - you will spend every waking day obsessed about her: Is she happy? Is she cheating? Will she give me sex? Will she take my kids from me? Will she turn people against me? On and on and on. 

Your happiness can't depend on the whims and wishes of another person. Because that's not happiness. That's despair. 

The truly happy person KNOWS he'll be all right no matter WHAT the circumstance. Prisoners of war have been known to find happiness, because they knew their happiness lay in THEIR hands and their choice to accept life as it is, no matter what it throws at them. 

We only get one life. If you live it believing that only A, B, or C will 'make' you happy, you are a fool. If you choose to instead BE happy, whether you're with her, whether you get 24/7 with your kids, whether you're a paraplegic, guess what? YOU WILL BE HAPPY.

Stop handing her your well being. Choose your own path. 

And here's the amazing secret - once you DO give it up, once you stop making your happiness depend on what SHE does...she will see it. She will know. And you'll stop being that weak, pathetic man she sees in front of her. And you just might become desirable to her. Women ONLY love and desire strong men. Seek strength, not control over your situation.


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## jld

I think you will like this, Still. It is from the ultimatehusband website, where that reconciling with a hardened wife article came from.

A Real Man


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## Stillkindofhopefull

...we're doing really pretty well. She just left and asked if I could make it for dinner tomorrow and the next night. 

I don't hang my happiness on her satisfaction with me, although it is important. I've always liked myself...I have my insecurities but who doesn't? I've made good progress on them during this. But do they still sometimes crop up? Sure.

One thing that happened as we began to get back together is that I did start to wonder...as the chaos began to settle, if it was still what I wanted. There were pros and cons. As long as I was seeing the progress, then the answer was yes. If I saw red flags, my answer wasn't "no" but I did pay a little closer attention and ease up on my appearance of eagerness to work things out. 

It isn't that I'm not confident...in most regards I am. But as a BS quickly realizes, when your world suddenly appears to be falling apart, your self confidence often takes the first big hit.

Anyway, I'm not forcing anything. I also know now that if it were ever to happen again, I could make it without it her. I just don't want to...it's a choice at this point. So I'm trying to learn from what we've been through so we don't repeat it.

Thanks for the link! I'll definitely read it!


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## Dedicated2Her

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> My emotions are tied to the result...it's my marriage and family. What are they supposed to be tied to? I guess I don't understand your point.


If you go down the path of self development in leadership, you will understand. Your emotions are supposed to be tied to the process, not the result.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

For the most part, leadership isn't a big issue for me. Everything I'm involved in I either own and have built or I rank higher than most others because I don't quit anything. That isn't to toot my own horn, truth is I know I still have a ways to go.

But there are complications that I have to consider...whether she does or not.

Call me a sucker but the girls know they are coming back here..."home." My wife has had enough legitimate issues that I haven't expected her to drop everything to cater to "us" as long as she at least acknowledges it. And she has. Even though if I called it quits it would be easier for my son and I to move on and at this point I could likely get more custody of my son, at least the half...she is my wife. The life consequences are real...and even though she made it apparent that she would have, and did, put me through it, I'm not willing to do that to her, so I lose some leverage and it isn't worth a bluff to get her attention. I don't think any ultimatums would be appropriate at this point so I show her love, hide some (not all) of my concern and take everything one day at a time.

We went out today...part of me just wanted to call it a day about an hour into it. I still see the self-centered part. That isn't a deal breaker but it's a downer. I don't know if it was a good idea or not, but I asked if she'd talk to my mom prior to Easter...we are having a big dinner like at her family's. I spoke to her mom the week she went on the mission trip. Now, she hasn't actually been back by my folks except a time or two and with everything going on I didn't worry about it...I also wanted to make sure it was worth doing. But my mom asked me over the weekend, I told her I didn't know and she began to cry. This has hurt a lot of people, my parents watched me lose weight and worry and it made them sick and mad. So I do think it is appropriate she attempt to make amends and I really knew the day would come...Easter just pushed it forward more. Anyway, her response was basically "sure...I'll do whatever I have to do" but not in a positive tone. Shortly after she began to cry and said it's up to her to fix everything. I didn't get it and didn't really agree, but I tried to console her a bit and we moved on.

She has started to read our book...she noted that it talked about how the lack of attention after marriage was a reason for things to break down that led to other problems. I didn't care for that being the main point she got out of the chapter. There is truth in it...but that was still a bit disappointing.

She did say that she believes we will make it, and that she has been thinking about how to approach my mom but hasn't seen her and didn't know what to say, or how much or when and now my folks will be gone for a couple days and Easter is almost here. I can see her point in that.

She still doesn't focus a lot on my needs...had a good few days but, like tonight, I went over for dinner and family game night and basically left when she was getting the kids in bed. There isn't a lot of "I miss you" talk or "I wish you would stay." I also know that nature is preventing much besides hanging out, especially when you put our son in the mix as well (a situation we are addressing).

So, in a nutshell, I see progress but also excuses. Leaving isn't a good option nor one that I want. If it were ever to get to that point again, I think it would be the last time. So I don't take it lightly and basically keep it off the table so it isn't an option. Escape routes can change your action plans. I don't want that.


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## turnera

You're making a mistake by not speaking up.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I'm listening more, speaking less and not getting as irritated. Things I didn't do as much the first time around. I still speak my mind but I pick my battles and try to wait for better moments. 

It may not work perfectly but we are also better than we were and even though I feel disappointed at times, I'm gaining more confidence in the ability to handle either outcome. I'm okay with that at this point.


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## Dedicated2Her

I wouldn't bring her over to my parents right now...... your parents feelings aren't as important as your relationship with your wife. Yeah, that relationship needs to be mended between her and your parents, but not yet. 

She is only with you because of her Christian "guilt". The true heart change hasn't come yet. Once that comes (if it does), then you have her work on mending the brokenness between her and your parents. It won't be genuine right now.

When the time comes, you have be firmly in your wife's corner, and she needs to feel that. You aren't there yet, either.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Fortunately things are continuing to improve. 
Sometimes it is despite my own doubt, which is why that "Battlefield of the Mind" devotional has been such a help to remind me that what I think and focus on has big impact on how I act and feel so that I try more often to focus on the good and the progress when otherwise I probably wouldn't. 

Things feel a bit like...one of my sons pull-back car toys. 

I start feeling like I'm moving backwards instead of forwards and wonder what is going on, and then a release will take place and we make better progress forward than sometimes I even expected. 

I still don't care for the pull-back part but I am pretty amazed about how much further forward we can end up.

Still a work in progress but I wanted to note the successes since I know I comment on the set backs.

I used to imagine her bringing my son for his haircut and ice cream like we used to do, that I have done without mostly since this began. I wanted to take them to lunch as well. That happened yesterday.
She also texted me out of the blue while we were in the same house and told me she loved me.

The girls had friends over last night and there was one I hadn't met before...it was nice when she introduced me as her husband. Just hasn't happened in a long time. The tone in her voice was nice.


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## Dedicated2Her

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Fortunately things are continuing to improve.
> Sometimes it is despite my own doubt, which is why that "Battlefield of the Mind" devotional has been such a help to remind me that what I think and focus on has big impact on how I act and feel so that I try more often to focus on the good and the progress when otherwise I probably wouldn't.
> 
> Things feel a bit like...one of my sons pull-back car toys.
> 
> I start feeling like I'm moving backwards instead of forwards and wonder what is going on, and then a release will take place and we make better progress forward than sometimes I even expected.
> 
> I still don't care for the pull-back part but I am pretty amazed about how much further forward we can end up.
> 
> Still a work in progress but I wanted to note the successes since I know I comment on the set backs.
> 
> I used to imagine her bringing my son for his haircut and ice cream like we used to do, that I have done without mostly since this began. I wanted to take them to lunch as well. That happened yesterday.
> She also texted me out of the blue while we were in the same house and told me she loved me.
> 
> The girls had friends over last night and there was one I hadn't met before...it was nice when she introduced me as her husband. Just hasn't happened in a long time. The tone in her voice was nice.


Emotions are like waves in the sea. They come and they go. They change from up to down. Your ability to stay steadfast and to learn that your wive's approval is not where you gather your strength is what will make or break this marriage. Your wife has a good enough support system to bring her back to what she knows is right. Your job is to create an atmosphere where she feels safe and capable to be vulnerable. 

I can see in your words that you are in "starvation" mode. It's when a guy hasn't received anything from his mate that he starts to look or hang onto small things like you have described above. This can go three ways.....1. it can fall apart again 2. it can become a marriage where she holds all the power and learns how to use her words and affection as a way to control you 3. It can become a marriage where you get your strength from within and above, and she grows in her respect for you slowly over time. Love comes softly......slowly, over a long period.

As you grow as a man, you will find out a ton about your wife. Hopefully, she wanders the narrow road of humility, and you guys will have a mutually respectful relationship.

I remember getting those small moments where I thought my marriage was making that kind of progress as we went through our 1.8 years of in house separation. It all comes down to your development as a man and the condition of her heart. You can't have one without the other for a long lasting, fruitful, relationship.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Good advice. I can see the "starvation mode" description. She has done other things, I just wanted to list some examples, but yeah, I do hang on a lot of her actions. In let because I tend to compare them to the actions (or lack thereof) that stil bother me. There are still those, too.

I see enough potential to keep moving forward so I am. I also have a female friend (she is a patient's mom but is my age) going through something similar except worse...her husband left her with 2 kids and one on the way. The child I see cant walk yet, which makes it that much harder. Yesterday she just stayed in her car and cried. Said she was exhausted and didn't know why she deserved this. The kids are struggling. She says they both cry at night wanting their dad and she thinks they are mad at her...kids don't understand, they aren't meant to. She can't pick up her son very well becuase he is heavier and she is almost due and she is just wore out. The boy can tell something isn't right either. He's more quiet now but when he cries he wails.

her husband will never understand the pain he is causing on his family. Jerk. Man is he a jerk.


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## jld

What a selfish, selfish man.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Just checking in.

Things are consistently better. When I get a bit irritated about something, first I try to make sure it isn't just me being tired or in a bad mood. But otherwise, she can pick up on it and we usually end up talking about it. She is good to try to address it.

All of her talk is about us now as if there isn't a question anymore...that is a good step in the right direction. 

It isn't perfect...I'd like for her to hang on me more as if I've saved the day or something I think.

But she texts me often, sends me photos of our son during the day...texted me yesterday to tell me she was looking forward date night.

She is doing a lot better about being mindful of my "needs." I'm trying to be mindful of making sure that when she is talking to me, I put my cell phone down and look at her. That makes a difference. Go figure. 

She is reading the book. I had to ask her once when I felt like we were being put on the back burner.

We went on our first date night last night...with our son, but that is fine with us. It was casual, doing something we always liked to do in the past, get a bite and go to Barnes and Noble.

Next time we don't have any children we will dress it up a bit.

Did a 5k today. I pushed the stroller and ran with her.  Pretty good since I haven't ran more than 3 miles since a half marathon in before Christmas. I think I could have took the thing if I weren't pushing my son, but I'd much rather push my son and finish together with her.

So...doing better. I am learning to not worry about not spending all of our time together...I think in part because I don't worry as much if we will have any more in the future.

We are in a tight spot financially and a lot of things to do to get everyone moved back under one roof.

Reg, if you are reading this...I keep praying for you. My wife and I were at odds for a solid 8 months. Bad stuff. No good stuff in sight. I feel you. Keep being the man that she will miss and respect...and wonder about. Don't be afraid to crack a joke and lighten the tension if the opportunity comes. Don't be afraid to move on if you have to but have no regrets if you do, so love her. It doesn't mean cater to her and do whatever she says. I know you are past that anyway.

Thanks for all the help throughout this situation. Hopefully the worst is behind us. Maybe not all the bad stuff...just the worst of it.


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## farsidejunky

When you feel yourself getting sucked back in to old ways , focus on getting back to 50,000 feet. I think you've got it as long as you can remain at that altitude, brother. Keep at it.


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## honcho

What is the timeline if there is one for moving back under one roof? You can only do so much as far as reconciling while living in separate places.


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## DayOne

honcho said:


> What is the timeline if there is one for moving back under one roof? You can only do so much as far as reconciling while living in separate places.


You can do a lot, actually. Trust me on this!


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## honcho

DayOne said:


> You can do a lot, actually. Trust me on this!


I didn't mean you couldn't do alot but you do have some limitations. Living together full time is another step in the reconciliation process. The poster has mentioned it several times about moving under one roof. I was just curious if they had a timeline.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stillkindofhopefull

We don't have a specific date aside from after school is out. We have some basic renovations to do. She had to give her ex 60 days notice, that's the initial basis for the delay. I stay over there or her, here sometimes.


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## DayOne

honcho said:


> I didn't mean you couldn't do alot but you do have some limitations. Living together full time is another step in the reconciliation process. The poster has mentioned it several times about moving under one roof. I was just curious if they had a timeline.


The plus side is, you can work on your issues, talk things through, repair your pasts, regain intimacy, have amazing sex...


..then send her a$$ home! 

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:




(Edit: TOTALLY kidding, BTW!)


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## Blossom Leigh

We were separated for four months ourselves and it helped a LOT! We needed that emotional safety.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Just wanted to post real quick. 
I remember the day they left like it was yesterday...the empty house, sitting in the living room floor holding my son until he fell asleep while they moved everything out from around us.
That was just at 4 months ago.

I came home tonight to a bedroom that was clean, but more importantly, it had our family photos back on the night stands.

Two of the kids were playing outside and the oldest was in the living room watching tv while my wife was in the garage organizing for a garage sale.

But seeing the bedroom was a real sign of progress for me.

Things are consistently better. Not many "downs"...some concerns maybe, but nothing that keeps me awake anymore. 

Not trying to jinx anything by posting the good news! Just want to hopefully be an encouraging story for the many others going down similar paths.

I still believe that if we can consistently show love, and believe that it will improve...while understanding that in the real world it doesn't always, so you have to be able to build a better "you" for the rest of what is to come...that making them walk away from love and the happier, more confident side of you...even if you have to fake it at times...is as good of a strategy as anything.

For now this is where we are at. I will continue with the goal of keeping it that way.


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## Chaparral

Are just depending on fate or do you have a plan you're following?

Did you read mmslp linked to below? Did you read the other books recommended? NOT JUST FRIENDS, LOVE BUSTERS, HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS? LOV MUST BE TOUGH?


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## jld

I am reading _7 Principles for Making Marriage Work _right now, by well-known marriage researcher John Gottman. A good summary of it is in the first post of my thread, "Relationship Truths," in the general forum.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

I did read mmslp and nnmng. Reading His Needs/ Her Needs now.


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## farsidejunky

Checking in on you, brother.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

She brought boxes of clothes in today. Reorganized our closet...meaning she cleaned it up and put all my stuff back to my original side. 
I took a picture of her putting a wall decoration back on the wall this evening. Made it feel a little more official.

In all honesty there have still been times I've been concerned and other times I've wondered if we (my son and I) wouldn't have been just fine just us...but it has been during times of frustration with kids fighting or some residual issues my wife and I still work on. But...we at least work on them. 

I went back to our original counselor last week. He was really encouraged about hearing her steps in making us work. It was a good visit. He has a good reputation with helping couples work things out and told me, back then, that she was gone and there was nothing he could do so the fact that we are working it out isn't much short of a testimony. 

We laugh a lot more. Some of my issues have made on my own. Not all. But she is pretty quick to acknowledge her faults and never acts like she is having seconds thoughts. 

So all in all, we are doing a ton better.

If anything, my son is having a hard time adjusting to having his sister back at "his house" and having to share his stuff. 
That, we can work with.

Things aren't perfect but the imperfections aren't worth talking about right now.

Thanks for checking on me!


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## Tobyboy

How is the relationship between your son and wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Good...I'd say he is more of a daddy's boy, still always would rather be at our house but that is at least partly because it is bigger and usually clean and he can play or hang out with me.

He loves his mommy for the time being he is more of a daddy's boy.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Just checking in.
We are 4 days in to our family vacation. 2 days left.
It's been really good.
There is little concern at this point that we aren't on the right track.

Still a couple issues. I've learned that there are some things that are "just the way she is" and as I've grown less sensitive to them we've avoided potential arguments and whatever those may lead to and increased our sex life and all-around happier moments.

I don't know that things may ever be "perfectly but it's getting to the point where it has the potential to be the best that it has ever been and to be that way a lot more consistently.

I was on the treadmill this morning and Joel Osteen was on the tv so I left it on. He was talking about how sometimes, like a plant, we are cut down when we might least expect and think that whatever was significant at the moment is now dead or dying...he likened to a gardener pruning the plants so that instead of killing them, they will actually grow stronger than before and more beautiful.

I liked that. I felt that related pretty well to us.

We are stronger now for all of this, we are mainly just cleaning up the familial and financial messes that were created in the meantime.

It's getting there, for sure.

Thanks again to all involved in this arduous period in my life.


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## turnera

Describe 'less sensitive to them.' And explain what these things are and how they relate to YOU.


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## 3Xnocharm

turnera said:


> Describe 'less sensitive to them.' And explain what these things are and how they relate to YOU.


Means that she is still exactly the same as she was but he is choosing to roll over and take it. 

I give it six weeks.


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Give it what you want but we had the best weekend yet.

"Less sensitive" means that for me, I had often been told that I over-think things and look into things too deep. Ever since college. Maybe before then but that was when I first realized it. 

In our relationship, it made it easier for me to get things worked up in my head which seldom did me any good. So it took an active effort to try to knock it off.

This weekend there were a couple things that were building up again. So instead of letting it show through being more irritatingly quiet or short, I brought it up...in this situation, I opened the conversation by asking her what were the first 3 things that came to mind if she had to describe me. It was cheesy...but I'm no expert so I started with that instead of telling her what I thought she thought...or how she came across.

Anyway, that is how it started...it was a bit awkward but I didn't come off as irritated as I initially felt and let it play out. It actually went really well and within 3-5 minutes the rest of our day changed for the better considering how it likely would have went otherwise.

Hope that made some sense.


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## farsidejunky

It did make sense. Amazing things can happen when you actually ask someone what their intentions are rather than just assuming.


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## turnera

So when you say 'it's just the way she is,' and I assume that means she's doing something that hurts you, what happens next? Give an example.


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## Chaparral

Hey still, how are you doing?


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## Stillkindofhopefull

Hey Chap, thanks for checking on me. All in all, things are much better...probably better than at any point than after the first 6 months of marriage.

I'd like to say everything is perfect but that isn't real life. Our "crazy phase" cost us everything financially. We are climbing our way out slowly but surely but we both feel that if the chaos and financial loss is what it cost to save the marriage and it family in the long haul, it is only money and we will make it back in due time.

We are a lot more open with everything. 
There was a time when, even though I wanted it, I didn't see how we could ever really be intimate again...let alone actually enjoy it. But that has come along well, too.

Every now and then I have ...triggers I guess, but nothing really too major. We can actually joke and even refer back to the other guy or other situations that caused us issues. It's usually in response to a trigger but at least it doesn't cause further deterioration. We bring it up, discuss whatever it is and usually end up laughing about something and often enough end up making up for it that night. 

It did cause a good amount of stress for the kids. They are back to making straight A's in school and not wanting to clean their rooms, which is a nice problem to have compared to what we had.

Our oldest, however, is going to live with her dad after this school semester. 
We had all gone to court but settled outside of court and without a judge.
We support the transition. Everything hit her the hardest. 

We also get along better with her ex and his wife. They came over for dinner the night we told our oldest she'd be going to school in his town (where she went when she was little).

Looking back, I'm so glad it is over. I'm thankful I didn't try to date anyone while we were separated and that we found the light at the end of that messy tunnel.

I will check in from time to time. 
I wanted to see how others on here are doing and try to encourage others in similar situations.

I'm not perfect, neither is she. We can just admit it now easier and accept each other a lot more in the process.


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## farsidejunky

Glad to hear it, Still.

It sounds like y'all are healthy. Keep trying to make things great, brother.


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## Chaparral

That's Very pleasing to hear. Good luck and keep up the good work. I'm definitely impressed.


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