# Why I doubt it's going to work out.



## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Disclaimer: <<This does not apply to healthy, mutually giving relationships. I came into my marriage believing you give and get. Seeking to meet my H's needs. What you are about to read wouldn't be necessary in a marriage of mutual giving and receiving.>>

From those who have read my story, the advice has been along the lines of:

cooling off
180-ing 
detaching
not tolerating my H's immaturity and disrespect
not provoking or engaging in conflict
not being needy

Got it. On it. Doing ok, for the most part.

But here is why I have doubts:

Throughout the entire duration of our relationship, I've always played the role of pursuer. 
At the beginning, that was no problem.
I pursued out of confidence.
At the beginning, it was my pursuing that gave him the confidence to reciprocate...date me...propose...and marry me.
*If I had not pursued him, he would not have pursued me.*

BUT pursuing at all costs, in the midst of conflict and disrespect--is out of neediness, not confidence. 
As he distanced.
"Peace and connection at any price."
"We can work it out!"

A part of me thinks we would not have gotten married if *I* hadn't pushed so hard.

My point is this:

In his entire life of almost 40 years, my husband has never successfully pursued a woman who is confident, cool-temp, and "attractive"--independent, indifferent, and not needy.

So if I cool off, detach, and dabble in 180-ness, (maybe a 165?) I have a feeling his default response will be to shrink back and pout: "She doesn't want me. Fine." 
NOT TO PURSUE.

*Throughout our entire relationship, he's complained about my neediness, insecurity, and nit-picking, but in some ways it has made him feel important and cared about.*

Any conflict with me asking for more, has left him on top.

*So I have a feeling that now that I'm waking up, backing off, and asserting some confidence and independence, it seems that he'll mope "she just doesn't need me." 
And he WON'T do anything to change that or restore connection.
*
I don't know if he has the confidence and internal emotional resources/strength to realize HE CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, IT'S NOT ALL BECAUSE OF/UP TO ME, and reach out to me when I pull back in response to his disrespect or unacceptable behavior.

For our entire relationship, the emotional energy I put in was sustaining and fueling us.
For awhile, it was worth it.
When he participates with me and cares for me, it is worth it.
But when he behaves the way he did and doesn't partner with me to re-connect, it's just not.

When he STILL believes every reaction, word, and action HE does is ultimately caused by ME...it's not.

A lot of people here have said that the spouse of a confident, independent, attractive person will want to pursue and be a part of that person's life.

But with my H, I don't know.

*In response to the way things have gone in the last month, I still feel like cool, happy, independence is the way to go, but I don't have the faith in HIM that HE will wake up and WANT to join me.
*
Does this make sense?

*Has anyone else sensed that your spouse would just shrink away, pout, mope, and give up when you "180" or "cool off" or distance or live for yourself?*


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## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

You make sense to me. 

I think that whenever you do something different there are moments of doubt. You are doing great! Don't doubt yourself.

I had to pull a 180 on my husband before, and he did shrink away AT FIRST because he didn't know how to react to the new me. At first he got angry and all I was doing was taking care of myself. I started going out with my friends more, taking better care of myself physically, and just acting like nothing bothered me no matter what he did. 

He did change, but it took a while. Like I said, his initial reaction was to get angry at me and act as if he didn't care either. He came around though.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

themrs said:


> You make sense to me.
> 
> I think that whenever you do something different there are moments of doubt. You are doing great! Don't doubt yourself.
> 
> ...


Thank you!

The advice "Be attractive!" is great.
And i think I am "being attractive."

The wild card is whether I attract HIM or not.
And if he puts on his protective pouty "she's rejecting me" shell...or if he mans up, grows up, and steps up.


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## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Thank you!
> 
> The advice "Be attractive!" is great.
> And i think I am "being attractive."
> ...


Rejecting him and taking care of yourself are two different things. He is used to you putting his needs first and yourself last. Just switch the two. Put yourself first and put him second. That doesn't mean you reject him. You can still be loving and affectionate to him, just take more time for yourself. 

Him being pouty and displaying to you that he feels rejected is nothing but bait. Don't take it! The more attractive you make yourself, the more attracted he'll be to you. He'll have to change if he wants to be with the new you. Don't give him the option of not changing by reverting back to your old behavior.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

To be honest, it sounds to me like you have learned a ton but he is unwilling to do his half of the growing up. If the very basis of the relationship's starting point is untenable, what is a girl to do?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

themrs said:


> Rejecting him and taking care of yourself are two different things. He is used to you putting his needs first and yourself last. Just switch the two. Put yourself first and put him second. That doesn't mean you reject him. You can still be loving and affectionate to him, just take more time for yourself.
> 
> Him being pouty and displaying to you that he feels rejected is nothing but bait. Don't take it! The more attractive you make yourself, the more attracted he'll be to you. He'll have to change if he wants to be with the new you. Don't give him the option of not changing by reverting back to your old behavior.


Actually, at this point he's just acting like he doesn't care.

No overt pouting.

We both need some time for a new pattern to emerge.

I'm feeling very self protective too, and am not inclined to be affectionate right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> To be honest, it sounds to me like you have learned a ton but he is unwilling to do his half of the growing up. If the very basis of the relationship's starting point is untenable, what is a girl to do?


Right.

We started with an unhealthy pattern.
I'm finding ways to change it now and for our future.

He's free to join me.

And if he doesn't, I won't take it personally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

What are you going to do if he doesn't?


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## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

I've been reading your threads, but now I'm confused. 

You are not being affectionate to him at all? Then you are rejecting him and of course he would feel that way. Anytime a spouse takes their love away for their own self preservation, it's a rejection. 

I don't know how he can join the person you are now if he doesn't feel welcome to come to you. How is he going to join you if you are acting unapproachable? 

I understand you want to change the dysfunctional pattern you two shared, and I support you, but I don't think you have to get rid of the good things you shared along with it, ie the love and affection.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I didn't say "not at all." I just expressed how I feel.

I'm just having a cooler temp. Not falling all over him and initiating affection, but not rejecting him either.
Cool temp.

Mom6547, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
When I'm consistent to the point that I know I feel good about my own behavior, and if he's not, I'll know it'll be time to let him know he needs to take steps similar to what i'm doing, or there's a risk I'll leave. Now isn't the time to go there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I can also tell that ever since we got back home, he's been watching and waiting for me to bring up the issues of the past 3 weeks.
I won't---because I've made peace with mySELF over all of it.

Thus, I have done EXACTLY what he's told me to do. Many times.

Right now we're distant. In the old days, I'd reach out because the distance was uncomfortable for me.
Sorry folks, but I'd like to see him be uncomfortable with the distance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

You are doing great. Time for him to "man up" and be the leader. That requires humility and servanthood. You are doing this because you love yourself and you love him. He needs this from you to make him uncomfortable and eventually want to change. It takes time.


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## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I can also tell that ever since we got back home, he's been watching and waiting for me to bring up the issues of the past 3 weeks.
> I won't---because I've made peace with mySELF over all of it.
> 
> Thus, I have done EXACTLY what he's told me to do. Many times.
> ...



I'd say he is uncomfortable with the distance but he doesn't know how to connect with you because you've always been the one to initiate the reconnection. 

You have to give him time to figure out how to approach you. It's all new to him and it can be very difficult having to do things that are not in your comfort zone.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

That sort of discomfort grows over time.

At first, there is relief that the fighting is over/subsided.

But, the call of the soul forces us to seek connection. When he realizes there isn't any..... that will be his moment.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

themrs said:


> I'd say he is uncomfortable with the distance but he doesn't know how to connect with you because you've always been the one to initiate the reconnection.
> 
> You have to give him time to figure out how to approach you. It's all new to him and it can be very difficult having to do things that are not in your comfort zone.


That makes sense.

It's also important for US that we EACH change the behaviors that caused conflict:

Me--nitpicking, correcting, harping 
Him--no need to list here.

He STILL hasn't noticed or appreciated that I've changes those behaviors.

Instead, he assigns emotions to me without talking to me.
And then judges those emotions.

It's possible he prefers the "old me," the needy, insecure PITA.
She was exceedingly available. That's comfortable for him.
Hence my original question.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

> Instead, he assigns emotions to me without talking to me.
> And then judges those emotions.


 Contempt whether it comes vocally or silently is a killer.

Best of luck


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> That sort of discomfort grows over time.
> 
> At first, there is relief that the fighting is over/subsided.
> 
> But, the call of the soul forces us to seek connection. When he realizes there isn't any..... that will be his moment.


I hope you are right.

I can't be certain what his soul calls, and what he's forced to seek----too many times it has called him to seek isolation. At least from me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

What part of you gets angry when you see what "HE" clearly isn't doing?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> What part of you gets angry when you see what "HE" clearly isn't doing?


The part that values peace and partnership and happiness.

The part that knows if I own my ****, why can't he?

The part that is tired of watching "nice" times (holidays) get pissed on by his bad attitude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> The part that values peace and partnership and happiness.
> 
> The part that knows if I own my ****, why can't he?
> 
> ...


And when was the first time you felt this sort of disappointment in another person?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> And when was the first time you felt this sort of disappointment in another person?


Not sure if you're being rhetorical and redirecting me...either way, yes, I know parts work is in order when I'm frustrated.

AND....I'm preparing myself for the possibility that my every effort--parts work, cooling down, all the moves *I* make--won't change what needs to change or heal on his side.

He may never see himself.

And the point of this thread is that I doubt he'll "come around" like others do, because he doesn't know how.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I can also tell that ever since we got back home, he's been watching and waiting for me to bring up the issues of the past 3 weeks.
> I won't---because I've made peace with mySELF over all of it.
> 
> Thus, I have done EXACTLY what he's told me to do. Many times.
> ...


I used to do the same thing.

Reach out first, because the distance was uncomfortable to me (including the silence).

But the distance wasn't uncomfortable to him, the silence neither, because he is more comfortable that way (and in a way he might be controlling me too because he knows the distance and silence are uncomfortable to me).

So I stopped with being uncomfortable with it.

If he doesn't want to talk, fine - I don't either.

If he doesn't want to interact - fine - I don't either.

This is not my nature, at all, so it's been quite difficult for me - but my counselor once told me that silence did not always equal rejection - that's how I used to view it.

Now I just view it as how he wants to be in the moment or if he's shutting down - then he's just acting childish.

It's no longer my concern. 

I've spent way too much time with all my energy focused on him being okay, him being happy, him not having a bad day - no matter how it affected me.

Not anymore - I don't let him ruin my day - he wants to be pissy - no problem - doesn't mean I have to.

It's not easy for me - far from it - but I've been more at peace with worrying more about my peace of mind, than his.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I've been thinking along similar lines, mwil.

Right now it feels tenuous because once again, it feels like he's "gotten away" with acting like a jerk.
No resolution. I tried showing with my actions, not words.
Now we're "back to normal." Sort of.

But i dont actually KNOW what he feels like.
BECAUSE HE WON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT IT.

So.....
I'm deciding not to open up discussion, because he'll shut down if I do.

And just waiting for the next "test."---which is what I call it, because my response makes a difference.

Conrad--your point that right now there's relief at the lack of arguing--I think that's where we are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with you being the pursurer. What's wrong is his treatment of you. So you've distanced yourself because he's been mean and you are standing your ground. If he won't come to you it's only because he still thinks he holds the power and you will come around eventually. This is a power struggle that you must win.

And of course the old you was more comfortable. Change is always uncomfortable at first doesn't mean you should stay the course though.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> There is nothing wrong with you being the pursurer. What's wrong is his treatment of you. So you've distanced yourself because he's been mean and you are standing your ground. If he won't come to you it's only because he still thinks he holds the power and you will come around eventually. This is a power struggle that you must win.
> 
> And of course the old you was more comfortable. Change is always uncomfortable at first doesn't mean you should stay the course though.


To be honest, I'm only partially standing my ground.
This crap is tricky.

The "stand your ground" fights with the "give in order to get" and the "rejecting him won't help" and the "i've contributed to the overall picture" and the "this is HIS way of restoring connection" (sex)

But i'm not doing what I wouldve done in the past---push for discussion and resolution, to be met with push-back from him.
I guess that's a baby step.

No doubt there will be an opportunity soon enough for me to "handle" something else.
Another baby step: the ability to resist engaging in bad fighting.

I've seen both of my own baby steps happen, so I know I can do others too! Woohoo!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Watching a "the king's speech."

Me: "that doesn't sound like stuttering."
him: opinions
me: "hm."
him: pause movie, lecture me on his opinions
me: "yeah...still don't think it's 'stuttering.'l
him--raised voice: "why do you have to argue with me?!? You insist on bickering with me!!"
me calmly: "please don't raise your voice at me."
him: "SORRY I raised my voice!"
me: "thank you."
me: toss ipad on couch
him: "don't throw my ipad!"
me: "I've seen you throw it around plenty of times. Now you're just picking on me."
him: yell yell yell blah blah blah
me: "please do not yell at me for the rest of the night. I won't be yelled at."
him, all keyed up: "yeah? Wanna hear what I want from you for the rest of the night?!?"
me: "I'm going to the bathroom to wash my face."
him: "don't walk away from me!!!"
me, out of bathroom 5 min later: silence.
Him: silence

Oh. My. God.
W. T. F. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Credam,
The entire movie is portrayed to be about a king who stutters. Now - if you are a speech therapist and know something I don't know - feel free to educate me. I just googled this - and apparently the entire world believes he suffered a severe case of stuttering. Sitting there saying he isn't, and then repeating that you don't think he was without offering an alternate explanation - would annoy many men, not just your H.

Tossing his ipad is escalation. I don't care if he does it as well. In the heat of conflict - doing that is escalation. 

BTW - I DO think he is being a jerk. I do. I also think that you are doing things tonight that a "typical" male would not respond well to. 



credamdóchasgra said:


> Watching a "the king's speech."
> 
> Me: "that doesn't sound like stuttering."
> him: opinions
> ...


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

credamdóchasgra said:


> me: "please do not yell at me for the rest of the night. I won't be yelled at."


Just a small pointer but one small change in dialogue can help your own sanity. From a boundaries perspective it is not helpful to say, "i wont be yelled at" because that is not something you can control. You're sort of demanding that he not yell, but of course he will, and in addition your not really communicating with him. Below is directly from http://www.joy2meu.com/Personal_Boundaries.htm


_So, it is very important for us to learn to communicate about how another person's behavior is affecting us - without making blaming "you" type of statements. There is a simple formula to help us do this. It is:

*When you . . . . .
I feel . . . . .
I want . . . .
Since I am powerless over you, I will take this action to protect myself if you behave in this way.*

It is best to use primary feeling words (described in the articles above) when expressing the "I feel . . . ." part of this formula - but it is also OK to use words that describe the messages we feel are inherent in their behaviors.

*When your* voice gets louder and your face gets red and you clench your fists,

*I feel* scared, intimidated, unsafe. I feel like you are going to hit me.

I feel angry, hurt, discounted, unimportant, insignificant, invisible, like I am being punished. It feels like you do not want to communicate with me. _


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

This is from the same website but I thought it was dead on for how you try to communicate with him:

_When you . . . . .
The "When you . . ." statement is a description of behavior. It is very important actually describe the behavior. To say to another person: when you get angry; when you shame me; or such statements - is too general, not specific enough. These types of general statements do not really describe the behavior - they are our interpretations of the behavior. A major facet of codependence is assuming, interpreting, mind reading, and fortune telling - due to our childhood conditioning. We think we know the intentions and motives of others. We assume that they are conscious of their behavior and will know what we are talking about.
It is vital to realize that we do not know how to communicate in a direct and honest manner. We need to stop interpreting and start communicating. It is important to describe the behavior rather than our interpretation and assumptions about what the behavior means._


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Credam,
> The entire movie is portrayed to be about a king who stutters. Now - if you are a speech therapist and know something I don't know - feel free to educate me. I just googled this - and apparently the entire world believes he suffered a severe case of stuttering. Sitting there saying he isn't, and then repeating that you don't think he was without offering an alternate explanation - would annoy many men, not just your H.
> 
> Tossing his ipad is escalation. I don't care if he does it as well. In the heat of conflict - doing that is escalation.
> ...


Oh, dear Lord.

No, I'm not a speech therapist. Not the point.
And his lecturing opinions were NOT a platform defending why the king WAS a stutterer. 
Also not the point.
Fwiw, I'm an elementary teacher who's worked with kids who stutter. But whatever.
I WAS TRYING TO OFFER AN ALTERNATE EXPLANATION UNTIL I GOT YELLED OVER!!!
I also googled it and found the same thing you did. 
I started to mention that to him, but he said, "i really don't want to hear you about this right now. It's just going to solicit more issues."
do you see how only one of us made this discussion personal? 

The point is: H can freely express his opinion without me *making it personal.*
The second I do likewise, i'm "insisting on arguing with him."
He said, "here's what I think..." freely. 
I wanted to converse: "here's what I think..." and I got yelled at *in the middle of my sentence.*
My ideas were no more/less intelligent or informed than his 
*He just interpreted them as an attack.*
the point is: *the moment my opinions are different from his, he sees it as an attack.*

At some point I said to him, "Just because I have a different opinion than you, doesn't mean I'm trying to argue or fight with you."

About the ipad---I had no desire to passive aggressively escalate anything, though I can see how it would be interpreted that way.
I was *getting it out of the way* because I no longer wanted to sit next to him.
Bad move--OOPS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Oh, dear Lord.
> 
> No, I'm not a speech therapist. Not the point.
> And his lecturing opinions were NOT a platform defending why the king WAS a stutterer.
> Also not the point.


He freaked out over your not thinking it sounded like stuttering. Has he lost his mind?

I can see that this pattern is going to be HARD to break. But man, both of you can make some major mountains out of some pretty itty bitty molehills.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Blanca said:


> This is from the same website but I thought it was dead on for how you try to communicate with him:
> 
> _When you . . . . .
> The "When you . . ." statement is a description of behavior. It is very important actually describe the behavior. To say to another person: when you get angry; when you shame me; or such statements - is too general, not specific enough. These types of general statements do not really describe the behavior - they are our interpretations of the behavior. A major facet of codependence is assuming, interpreting, mind reading, and fortune telling - due to our childhood conditioning. We think we know the intentions and motives of others. We assume that they are conscious of their behavior and will know what we are talking about.
> It is vital to realize that we do not know how to communicate in a direct and honest manner. We need to stop interpreting and start communicating. It is important to describe the behavior rather than our interpretation and assumptions about what the behavior means._


Thank you.
I'll look more closely at this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> He freaked out over your not thinking it sounded like stuttering. Has he lost his mind?
> 
> I can see that this pattern is going to be HARD to break. But man, both of you can make some major mountains out of some pretty itty bitty molehills.


Mom6547, I don't make mountains out of molehills anymore. 
I own that I have, but now I'm consciously working on that in myself.
This was HIM.

Kindly stay in the present day, and suspend your historical view of me if you're going to reply.
Bad enough trying to get my own husband to see I'm not such a nutcase anymore!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Blanca said:


> Just a small pointer but one small change in dialogue can help your own sanity. From a boundaries perspective it is not helpful to say, "i wont be yelled at" because that is not something you can control. You're sort of demanding that he not yell, but of course he will, and in addition your not really communicating with him. Below is directly from Setting Personal Boundaries - protecting self
> 
> 
> _So, it is very important for us to learn to communicate about how another person's behavior is affecting us - without making blaming "you" type of statements. There is a simple formula to help us do this. It is:
> ...


Unfortunately, Blanca...

If I were to say "it makes me feel..." any of the things I feel, guess what his response is?

"That's your problem! You have to deal with that!"
at least if it's in the heat of his reaction.
He truly doesn't care about my feelings in those moments, AND then pins it on me if I share any feelings about it.

What I'm trying to do is hold up a mirror to his behavior.
So he SEES it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Oh. My. God. W. T. F.


Wow, a couple who argues worse and dumber than we do. You win. You both bicker like 5 year olds. And since my wife and I bicker like 7 year olds, I feel capable of telling you that.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Wow, a couple who argues worse and dumber than we do. You win. You both bicker like 5 year olds. And since my wife and I bicker like 7 year olds, I feel capable of telling you that.


yes, we have bickered like 5-year-olds.
Do you not see that i'm trying to put on my big girl panties and walk away from immature bickering?
Hence the walking away when I get yelled at.
I'm detaching when it gets juvenile.
Your comment is not helpful at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Wow, a couple who argues worse and dumber than we do. You win. You both bicker like 5 year olds. And since my wife and I bicker like 7 year olds, I feel capable of telling you that.


That is an insult to 5 and 7 year olds!  Just kidding.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> yes, we have bickered like 5-year-olds.
> Do you not see that i'm trying to put on my big girl panties and walk away from immature bickering?
> Hence the walking away when I get yelled at.
> I'm detaching when it gets juvenile.
> ...


I think he and I (well at least I) are trying to throw some levity at your situation in case that makes you smile. Not much of a long term strategy, but if it gets you through the day...


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> I think he and I (well at least I) are trying to throw some levity at your situation in case that makes you smile. Not much of a long term strategy, but if it gets you through the day...


OK...

I can deal with that.

I can laugh at these things in hindsight...both at myself and at him.

I guess on TAM I'm so focused on finding solutions that I feel threatened at any implication that *I'm* not doing my damnedest best.
So I get defensive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Creda,

I keep hearing you speak about how he's "getting away with things".

Clearly - that isn't what he craves.

What he craves is your throwing of IPAD's and getting into it with him.

You're still giving it to him.

He wants his favorite button on the soda machine to dispense his favorite flavor.

He's still getting ice cold brew.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> yes, we have bickered like 5-year-olds.
> Do you not see that i'm trying to put on my big girl panties and walk away from immature bickering?
> Hence the walking away when I get yelled at.
> I'm detaching when it gets juvenile.
> ...


Well if you're trying not to do that, what is your insight into this? Try to answer this. You're watching a movie (Which I saw for the 1st time last night, too, loved it) and you start throwing grumbling comments at each other. 

Why is that? Why is that important to both of you at that moment? Why is escalating your argument crucial to both of you right then and there? 

Ok so you didn't think it was stammering. Fine, it's a movie, who cares what you think? And your hubby, he chimes in with equally inane comments about how it is stammering, sufficient to require you to STOP the film and continue arguing this point with one another.

Setting aside for a moment the whole storming out of the room and pushing buttons by tossing the iPad, why did you both choose that moment to dig in your heels?

Why are both of you so desperate to get the last word and to be the 'winner'? Is everything with you two like this? 

That's what you need to examine. 

My wife and I bicker all the time about stupid ****. But I have learned to not care that much after the first 10 seconds. I don't care if either of us is wrong or right. It's not that important. 

By the way, Helena Bonham Carter putting her gorgeous plump bottom on Colin Firth's stomach while he practiced breathing was AWESOME!!! God, I love that woman.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Creda,
> 
> I keep hearing you speak about how he's "getting away with things".
> 
> ...


GAAAHH!!!!! Ok. Sure.

I stayed calm, save an ipad toss of 1 foot. Oops.

My voice stayed quiet and measured.

I stepped out of the room when he got loud.

I came back and watched the rest of the movie.

What is your advice next time?? Seriously.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> GAAAHH!!!!! Ok. Sure.
> 
> I stayed calm, save an ipad toss of 1 foot. Oops.
> 
> ...


Don't throw things.

Do not show disgust.

Don't take the bait.

And - don't dangle it.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Well if you're trying not to do that, what is your insight into this? Try to answer this. You're watching a movie (Which I saw for the 1st time last night, too, loved it) and you start throwing grumbling comments at each other.
> 
> Why is that? Why is that important to both of you at that moment? Why is escalating your argument crucial to both of you right then and there?
> 
> ...


NO. I opined neutrally about a dead king.
Nothing grumbly in my tone whatsoever.
It was like "huh. Helena's ass looks better in this than in Alice in wonderland."
that was my tone.
HE turned off the movie and took it to a more intense level. Not me.

And I left the room calmly to stop being screamed at.
I won't stand and be yelled at. He was in the mood to fight. I wasn't.
It wasn't "storming."
he gets mean---I left the room *to protect myself.*

He doesn't know how to be close to someone and NOT FIGHT.

I've been examining these questions for MONTHS.

You have no idea how far I've come in NOT fighting with him when he starts throwing jabs and raising his voice.





_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Don't throw things.
> 
> Do not show disgust.
> 
> ...


I'm getting better, I really am.

But I don't get it.

We had had a decent evening--dinner with friends.
No tension...no interrupting, correcting, eye-rolling.
Plenty of laughing at each other's jokes, saying supportive things to and about each other--fun.

Then snuggled on the couch to watch the movie.
And I had an opinion that differed from his. Period.

It's like he can't tolerate peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Creda,
> 
> I keep hearing you speak about how he's "getting away with things".
> 
> ...


What if "ice cold brew" is me expressing my opinion?

That's what set him off last night.

Have I forfeited my right to say "I see why you say that, but *I* think...."
without getting screamed at mid-sentence?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> What if "ice cold brew" is me expressing my opinion?
> 
> That's what set him off last night.
> 
> ...


How was your body language when you threw the device?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> How was your body language when you threw the device?


I was standing. Picked it up. Leaned over the couch. Tossed it. Sat back down.

I was conscious NOT to stomp and slam.

Didn't "storm" out of room. Just walked out. Walked back in 5 min later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I was standing. Picked it up. Leaned over the couch. Tossed it. Sat back down.
> 
> I was conscious NOT to stomp and slam.
> 
> ...


Yes, it's a shix test by him.

He ups the ante to obtain a reaction.

If you can not react 5 times in a row? It will make him crazy.

Have fun with it.

Lord knows you could use some.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Yes, it's a shix test by him.
> 
> He ups the ante to obtain a reaction.
> 
> ...


Now THAT made me smile 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Creda,
Conrad is right.




credamdóchasgra said:


> Now THAT made me smile
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Creda,
> Conrad is right.


Thanks. Sorry if I came across edgy with you. I appreciate your responses to help me.

It's just that last night's issue was out of the bounds of "two-sided conflict," and I really felt blindsided.

Really got the sense he was looking for a fight.

I know when I'm a PITA. I know when I engage. I know when I provoke.

I also know when I feel like I'm smoothly sailing along, peaceful, and suddenly it's like "Where the F did THAT come from?"


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## Leah L (Jan 11, 2011)

Creda, 

I applaud you trying to improve things, putting the effort into analyzing recent arguments.....

Your husband's sudden mood "flip" reminds me of my husband. Things are fine, I make some random comment, could be a good one or not, the point is, my comment DOES NOT MATTER, its a random opportunity for my husband to use it to start a fight. 

I, like you dissected every conversation from every angle and tried a myriad of things to diffuse the situation. I made some progress but in the end I realized my efforts are/will be minimal. 

I faced the fact my husband STARTS fights w/me, because he's in a bad mood, because....who knows. It finally hit home with me that it is simply too much work to get along with him if I have to dance around his moods forever. And - its eating at my happiness and self-esteem. 

Perhaps it is not right for you, but for me, I threw in the towel on all of this analyzing and (finally) got right to the point.

You made a comment somewhere...about the idea of telling him you may both have made a mistake, not a condemnation of who did what wrong but a frank recognition of where you two are at right now.

Not using my words, but do you think that perhaps tossing all of this aside and having such a conversation with him might help? He sounds frustrated too....I wonder if maybe he is struggling with such thoughts as well, and neither of you wants to bring up the elephant in the room.

Wishing you well, Leah


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Creda,
You were perfectly fine with me. Let me try to convey my point better than I did last night. 

Before I do, it is important that you know I have a lot of respect for your commitment to your marriage, your steadily increasing levels of self awareness and your determination to improve.

As for last night. There is a difference between reasonable behavior and "optimal" behavior. Your conversational style was reasonable, it simply wasn't optimal for your audience. 

In a highly charged emotional atmosphere - which is your current context if you say to me:
- X is false (and X is something I am very confident is true - I feel irritation. I KNOW X is true - by the way I might be wrong but in the moment I am confident that I am right)
- My likely response is not the "proper" response. Which is "If that isn't stuttering, what is it"? Instead my reply is some version of contradicting you - or discounting your statement.
- If at that point you simply repeat your statement - I now get more irate because you are continuing to tell me that what I think - and what most people think is wrong - without explaining the right answer. Again the "right" response from me is "if not stuttering than what is it"? But the more irate I get the lower the chance that I will respond with that. 

In such an atmosphere - a less emotionally volatile exchange starts with you saying: "I actually think he is doing X, which is different than stuttering". 
When he responds with "opinion"
You come back with: It is somewhat subjective, however the difference between "X - your view - and stuttering is actually ....". Notice he is doing ".....", which is easily confused with stuttering but is different. 



credamdóchasgra said:


> Thanks. Sorry if I came across edgy with you. I appreciate your responses to help me.
> 
> It's just that last night's issue was out of the bounds of "two-sided conflict," and I really felt blindsided.
> 
> ...


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

credamdóchasgra said:


> What I'm trying to do is hold up a mirror to his behavior.
> So he SEES it.


How's that approach working for you? 

Its not working because its actually poor boundaries to try to do that. 



credamdóchasgra said:


> If I were to say "*it makes me feel*..." any of the things I feel, guess what his response is?
> 
> "That's your problem! You have to deal with that!"
> at least if it's in the heat of his reaction.
> He truly doesn't care about my feelings in those moments, AND then pins it on me if I share any feelings about it.


But you never do say "it makes me feel..." You say simply, "when you do xyz, I feel..." 

Taking out the words "makes me" is such a simple thing but it can be very profound for your own happiness. 

Its actually not his response that is important when you implement boundaries- especially right now. Its for you. When you communicate with him you vocalize and solidify assumptions in your own mind and interpretations about the situation. The way you communicate will reinforce certain beliefs with yourself and those believes can make you miserable. For example saying someone else's action "makes you" or demanding of someone that "I will not be yelled at" solidifies certain perceptions and creates certain expectations in your own mind. The assumptions and expectations you reinforce by your communication has everything to do with your own happiness. You are, in a sense, communicating with yourself.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

My point was:

when he's riled up, the less I say, the better.

When I disengage for my own sanity and protection, I give him nothing to grab to project or pin onto me.

That's in my boundaries.

Up to him whether he sees himself or not.

I just want to provide LESS to obstruct his view of himself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

UPDATE..........

(MEM and Leah, I appreciate your taking teh time and will respond)

I had a great day...ran almost 6 miles in gorgeous sunshine, and got some work done. (I write curriculum for a non-profit, part-time)
H worked all day--I respect and appreciate his work ethic, and empathize with his work stress. Sometimes I need to remind myself that he works hard for us and our future.

So he calls around 6:30, asks about dinner. GORGEOUS weather today.
We have lots of leftover ribs, chicken, veggies, dip and lamb from parties of the past couple days, so I tell him I'm going to put together a picnic for us to take to the park right across the street. OK.

He gets home, it's all packed up and ready to go. I've rushed to make sure it's ready by the time he gets home. We walk over.

We sit down, I comment: "Oh, I didn't think about the picnic tables up there."
He says, "You didn't think about the picnic blankets either."
(I packed two towels instead.)
I say cheerfully: "These are fine."
We get our beers and clink a toast. 
He says: "To not having a speech impediment." (bringing up last night's stupid thing). 
I reply: 'Yes, t-t-t-to n-n-not having a s-s-sp-peech imp-ped-d-iment." (humor)

Dinner starts. Conversation shifts into to neutral and even funny.

He says about the ribs: "I would've hoped you'd heat these up."
I say: "I chose cold ribs and apprecaiting the last of the sun over warm ribs in dark shade."
A few minutes later he mentions the stupid towels vs. blanket again.
I say, "Next time when you put together the picnic, you can do it any way you want so you won't have anything to criticize."
Him: "I'm not criticizing, I was just expressing a hope."
Me: "Ok, got it...what hopes of yours have been met today? Anything positive happen?"
He then made some reference to the funny story I'd shared with him. We laughed. 

Conversation then shifted back to neutral.

My take on this: 
He brought up issues, threw in subtle criticisms, and I responded with a cheerful attitude, some humor, and NOT giving in to defensiveness: "Why don't you appreciate what I do???"
--even though I did feel a bit unappreciated. This is the mood he's in, and I'm not going to harp him out of it.
I chose NOT to get over-sensitive to his comments and defensive...allow for the reality that he's 1) not over the issues between us, 2) stressed about work, and 3) likes the freakin' ribs heated. Fine.

He then left for work again on a neutral/positive note.

If you find the play-by-play tedious, I understand. It helps me to get it out there and maybe get feedback, if anyone cares to offer it. I appreciate it.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

I give you an A+ well done!


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> I give you an A+ well done!


Thank you!!!

More "tests" to come...your encouragement helps.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> More "tests" to come...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They always do. I get my share too so don't feel bad. Different tests but tests nonetheless.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

And there's NO question the dance has shifted...

It's a relatively new phenomenon that the day after an "issue" HE brings it up and I laugh it off.

It's still not a much more fun dance yet...but I'm patient.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

A+++

I recognize that took effort. He is DEFINITELY trying to rile you. A "normal" person would have gotten visibly pissed off at him. 

He is a tiresome little monkey. That said, IF you can keep this up he will either come around or you will leave him in the dust without a backward glance. 





credamdóchasgra said:


> Thank you!!!
> 
> More "tests" to come...your encouragement helps.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> A+++
> 
> I recognize that took effort. He is DEFINITELY trying to rile you. A "normal" person would have gotten visibly pissed off at him.
> 
> He is a tiresome little monkey. That said, IF you can keep this up he will either come around or you will leave him in the dust without a backward glance.


I was hoping someone would say, "no big deal, give the guy a break. Don't take it personally. Long day." oh, well.

In any case, he came home from work with a chick flick and my favorite candy bar.
He's nothing if not surprising.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> A+++
> 
> I recognize that took effort. He is DEFINITELY trying to rile you. A "normal" person would have gotten visibly pissed off at him.
> 
> He is a tiresome little monkey. That said, IF you can keep this up he will either come around or you will leave him in the dust without a backward glance.


I think part of what's going to help me pass the "tests" or however you want to put it, is that I know I will only take just so much, and I've given myself permission not to take more than that.
There's a certain freedom in that.
If he wants to saw off the branch we're sitting on, I'm not going to try and stop him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Leah L (Jan 11, 2011)

You have more self control than me!

Mine would have been wearing a plate of ribs on his head, then on his shirt as I ripped the towel out from under him!

Dang, it seems he was thinking of you since he brought home your treat, but he still needed to "win"...... your picnic sounded sweet and his snide comments - very passive aggressive.

He married you for better or worse, to bring out the best in each other, not to play hurtful games. 

I wish I had something to offer other than to commiserate on your frustration. 

Leah


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Leah L said:


> You have more self control than me!
> 
> Mine would have been wearing a plate of ribs on his head, then on his shirt as I ripped the towel out from under him!
> 
> ...


Well...I don't want to assign nasty motives to him.
I have to just understand this is where he is *right now*

The thing is...

His comments, if we weren't--as MEM said--in an emotionally volatile place right now, may have been meaningless.
If our climate were more neutral right now, I couldve easily said "hey mr. Grumpy, knock it off!" and he wouldve smiled and said "oh sorry" and given me a kiss.
OR, he wouldve come home and given me a big smile and hug for packing a picnic.

BUT, right now he's harboring something that keeps him from relaxing, appreciating, and receiving love.

If I had gotten indignant and defensive, it wouldve played into everything that KEEPS us in a negative place.
It wouldve made me "needy." F that.

I took a different approach to it:
I packed a picnic for US---for ME and him. And I wouldve done it without him too.
Whether he appreciated or not, *I* still was happy as a lark on a picnic.

And when he made a critical comment, I replied by telling him "whatever," without getting emotional.

It's very possible he feels unappreciated somewhere in there too. He's entitled, his feelings are valid.
It's also clear he held onto negative feelings from the day before, while I didn't.

Today...
Woke up, I was in a cheerful mood that totally disarmed his morning grumpies.
Then we went to church, and he was especially nice and solicitous toward me. I'll take it.
Then he suggested we have lunch at an outdoor riverside restaurant. Lovely.

I still anticipate more tests....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Don't let your guard down.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> And there's NO question the dance has shifted...
> 
> It's a relatively new phenomenon that the day after an "issue" HE brings it up and I laugh it off.
> 
> ...


And you still doubt whether he'll come to you?

Keep that button off limits.

No favorite flavor. Not today - not ever again.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Don't let your guard down.


Yeah.

"Lovely day at church and riverside lunch" are exactly the conditions designed to drop my guard.

I won't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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