# Frostflower's journal



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

It was suggested that I keep everything in one thread, so here it is. I'm copying the first two parts of my story and will just keep adding as I go. Thank you to everyone who has been supporting me. It really is helping.

Here is the first part of the saga:

One morning three months ago, I kissed my husband goodbye as he left for work. That afternoon on my way home from work, I got a text. As I was stopped at a red light, I looked at it. It was from my husband and said 'please call me asap'. Thinking something had happened to one of our kids, I pulled over and phoned him....and that's how I found out that he had left. Sitting on the side of the highway. I don't know how I got home.

I later found out that he had gone back home at some point during the day and packed. My daughter (18) was home. As he travels a fair bit with his job, she just figured he was going on a business trip. That was the last time she saw him.

This came out of the blue. Things had been stressful at home for a very long time, but I had no clue that this was coming. We have raised three beautiful children. The two boys were very challenging, but that's probably a post for a different forum. The younger one (22) is at home. Long story, but he has been using drugs. We have poured thousands into him trying to help him get his life on track, to no avail. The stress has been overwhelming. Then there are the major house renos mu husband started years ago. With a fulltime job that involves being away from home 25% of the time, well, you can imagine. Also, he hates his job...more stress. I love my job (special ed teacher). It is stressful but, unlike the stress at home, that stress I seem to thrive on. Both my husband and I are being treated for depression, me since the birth of our second, him the last few years. In his case the meds have caused ED which wasn't helped by Viagra. Although I pretended that it didn't matter, I'm sure it must have bothered him. In sum, its been hard. Neither he nor I have had any emotional energy left to work on our marriage. I really believed that, once things got better with our son, we could then work on us. What a huge mistake that was!

My husband doesn't talk. Not to me anyway.

After exchanging emails which we kept civil, I finally insisted that we meet to discuss a few things in person. I had gone to see a lawyer in order to find out what my rights are. Thank Heavens they give you a free half hour because I have no money. Anyway, the lawyer worked out what I should get for child support for our daughter. She gave me an additional figure for my son as drug abuse is considered a medical issue and she felt I had a case for support. I've chosen not to pursue that. Before this all happened, my husband (let's call him R, which is his initial and is politer that how I refer to him in my head) had said that we would help our son out one last time when he found a job. He's looking in a different province in order to get away from his druggie 'friends' here and will need money to move. I figured that if R helped out with that, then that would suffice. As far as spousal support, I am entitled, but once the child support comes off, there isn't enough left in his pay check according to the lawyer's formula, so its a moot point.

Goodness, this is getting long. Thank you if you're still with me!

So, R and I met and I gave him a copy of the child support calculation for our daughter. You should have seen his face! I don't think he had any idea as to what it would cost him. Although I didn't ask, he said that he would also 'help me out' over the summer as I don't get paid for those two months. We parted. i saw no child support and as it was still during the school year, no summer money. When I questioned him about the child support, he replied that he didn't see why it had to be so much. This went on for a couple of months, but, after I wrote an email responding to one of his where he outlined a budget for covering our daughter's expenses (i pointed out that the amount is mandated by law and that by the same law I do not have to account for how I use the money) he is finally paying it.

Now, backtracking to our face-to-face meeting, I asked him if there were someone else. He said no. He talked about staying friends. i asked what that meant and he said we could meet for coffee once in a while and maybe do things together. "Go for bike rides?" i asked (he's really into that). "Yes," he answered. So I went away hopeful that we would spend time together and maybe eventually work things out.

That night I got an email. He'd been meaning to tell me, he is with someone else. What was left of my heart shattered. Unfortunately, my daughter heard me crying, came, took the computer off my lap and read his email. I would not have wanted her to find out about her father like that, but I was too upset to stop her. She was great. She held me while I cried. I found out later from my oldest that she then went and texted her father saying that she never wants to see him again. This makes me sad as he is still her father.

He has made no attempt to work things out with our children. Our oldest emailed him and asked him if he thought it out, especially about all the people he has hurt. R replied that he had thought it out. He emailed our son again on his birthday, but that's been it. Our middle one (the one with the drug problem) seems to be hurting the most. I know he blames himself for his father's leaving. His defence mechanism is to have nothing good to say about the man. 

Anyway, life does go on, doesn't it? Being at school helped me get through the first couple of months. My colleagues, when I finally told them, were so supportive. Now that school is out and I don't have that to keep my mind occupied, I am finding it hard. That, plus the fact that our 32nd anniversary would have been the 25th of this month...well, its really hard.

I don't know what the future holds. He has said that I can stay in the house as long as I want. I don't need this much room and this much work, but we can't sell it in the condition that its in. There are unfinished renos plus, years of stress and depression have resulted in a real mess. I am doing my best to purge and clean. Happy summer! He is supposed to be finishing the renos, but in three months he has been here three times. Twice to fix a leak under the kitchen sink (still leaking) and once (when I asked for some kind of work commitment) to actually do reno stuff. 

I had said he could pretty much come anytime, but to let me know when he was thinking of coming and I would tell him if it was convenient He heard (or read as it was in an email), 'come anytime'. I started down stairs one morning in my cleaning grubbies, and there he was at the the bottom of the stairs. He was supposed to come a couple of days earlier. That day, I fixed my hair, put makeup on, dressed in nice clothes (pathetic, huh?)...and he never showed. So, there I was sloppily dressed, hair a mess. Crap!

After that I emailed him insisting that he ask when he could come and that he use the doorbell and wait for someone to open it. This may still be partly his house, but it is no longer his home.

I am piling up all his stuff in a corner and informed him that he needs to take it. What I didn't realize was how much it would hurt seeing him do that. He can only take so much at a time, so that's going to be a recurring hurt.

There is more, of course, but this is long enough for a first instalment. I need to get back to purging and cleaning. Thanks for letting me go on. It is definitely therapeutic.
Share


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

And Part 2:


A few mornings after he left, I opened the blinds and there was his car in the driveway. 

"He's bacK!" My heart soared. Till I noticed he wasn't there. Then I realized what he had done. Parked his car in the driveway and rode his bike to work. As if nothing had changed. 

At first, I thought at least I might catch a glimpse of him occasionally (talk about pathetic), but it was tearing me up seeing his car there. After about a week, I emailed him and asked him to stop. I also asked him not to use the Park 'N Ride down the road that I drive past on my way to work. He hasn't done it since.

When I told all this to my doctor who has been seeing me to make sure I don't slip into depression (also R's doctor), he thought it was cruel on R's part. But you know, it wasn't. R just doesn't think like other people. He grew up in a toxic family and doesn't 'get' what most of us do. I'm sure it never occurred to him that this would hurt me. 

And so we went on, communicating by email. Our emails were about house and finances and were friendly. I refuse to become a bitter old woman, so I've worked hard at keeping things civil and light. Then one day I got an email that bordered on ugly. It was long and listed a whole slew of complaints against me. I was stunned. I let it sit awhile, then responded, addressing each point. One complaint was that I should have opted at work to be paid over 12 months instead of the 10 school months. Well, when that option first became available a few years ago, R and I discussed it and decided to stay with 10 months so that we got the interest on the money. I reminded him of that. Another item was that I should have had my own savings account all these years so that I had money. I reminded him that we had discussed this when we got married and decided to only have joint accounts. A third complaint was that as he left at the end of April, I had two paid months to prepare for the summer. As if, having paid all the bills that were now solely mine to pay I would have had enough left over to get me and two kids through the summer. And the big one that hurt the most....I 'racked up huge credit card bills and expected him to pay'. I used my credit card to pay for groceries and other household costs, gas, things that my daughter needed, the occasional lunch with a friend, the occasional book, and clothes for myself (and I don't dress expensively). I don't smoke or do drugs and I rarely drink. And I earned almost half the money that came into the house. What the heck?!!

Anyway, I responded to each point in a calm, matter of fact way, and ended by remarking that he seemed to have a lot of resentment toward me. I also said that, if he was upset about my spending, he should have talked to me about it. 

Well, a little while after sending the email, I got a reply: Please ignore the email. i didn't write it. I need to assess the situation.

A while later another email: i did not write that email. My account must have been hacked or my computer has a virus. 

Really????! You think I'm that stupid?

The instant he said he didn't write it, I knew who had. 

Later, he let it slip that there had actually been two emails not written by him. I would never, ever, open someone else's mail, let alone pretend to be them. He has chosen that over me. I don't get it.

He did write me an email, still not admitting who had actually written the email, apologizing for hurting me by leaving. That is the only expression of any remorse on his part.

The thing that sparked the bogus email was that I had written that our son was ready to move. I had forgone pursuing child support for our child with a drug problem because R had said he would help financially when he moved to find a job. I emailed him and asked if he was still willing to help out. The response was no. He felt he had helped enough in the past. I wrote back that I guess things had changed since he moved out and that I would simply help our son the best I could. That's when I got the email written by a hacker or a virus.

So, I have arranged to get some money through an insurance policy that my parents started for me when I was a teenager. The same policy had a clause that my kids could get insurance with no medical. As my son has a history of drug abuse, he will be ineligible for life insurance for 12 years after cleaning himself up. But through my policy, he could be insured no questions asked. Twelve years is a long time, during which he could marry or have kids. As I was closing the policy and would lose that option, I insured both him and my daughter. For both, it is only just under $30 a month, which I will carry until they are working. It felt good that I thought about it, made the decision and am doing this for them myself. Yay me!

Because R always handled the finances, I am on a steep learning curve. I am so anxious about money, I feel sick every time a bill arrives. I know I will be all right. I am luckier than many women in my position in that I have a good job. But I still can't help worrying. Today I am going to the bank to talk to our advisor. R and I had a line of credit which we have used to pay for all the renos and some new furniture. Splitting the balance in half, I am $22,000 in debt. The monthly payments are simply covering the interest. This is not a good feeling. R has arranged his own line of credit and paid off his share of the joint one. He said he did this so that I would have the ability to borrow against the full available amount should I need to. Of course, as it is a still a joint account, it shows up when he accesses online banking and I don't think he should be seeing what I do with it, be that borrowing or paying. I'm going to see if I can get his name taken off the LOC. Or if I can get my own and pay off the joint one. Of course, as a single person, I may lose the larger available amount that the joint one is for. But hopefully I would never need to borrow that much. I don't know. Hopefully the financial advisor can steer me right. Last time I met with him, right after R left, I bawled the whole time! 

Thanks for listening. It really is therapeutic to do this.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

How ya doing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> How ya doing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm doing okay, Up. Thanks for asking. 

Its been hard since I got R's reply and I realized he wasn't going to wise up and leave the OW, but I'll get through it. I've started exercising again, which I had stopped about a week ago. I won't let his idiocy affect the Me I want to become.

I was thinking this morning as I was making the bed, that that's another thing that is grossly unfair. They leave us, break our hearts and we have to lie in the same bed they made love to us in. I'd like to burn it. But can't afford a new one and I suppose the local fire department would turn up. Although, some of those firefighters are pretty darn hot.....

Anyway, thanks again for asking about me. It brought tears to my eyes to know that people here care.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

It's definitely hard and sad. The first thing is to make decision to move on. A lot of times stall on making this decision but it's simpler than we think. When a spouse leaves, cheats there's really one option to go with and that's to move on and leave them buried in the past. 

Keep working on yourself. You'll start feeling better about life, everything.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> It's definitely hard and sad. The first thing is to make decision to move on. A lot of times stall on making this decision but it's simpler than we think. When a spouse leaves, cheats there's really one option to go with and that's to move on and leave them buried in the past.
> 
> Keep working on yourself. You'll start feeling better about life, everything.


I'm trying, Life. I ran into a couple I haven't seen for months and they said I look great. I feel great physically and am working on the emotional. Look out world!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frost,

Have you exposed the affair to all family and friends?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Frost,
> 
> Have you exposed the affair to all family and friends?


My family (parents and brother) know as do my friends. Don't know about his. He hadn't told anyone for at least the first couple of months. His boss phoned here one day to talk to him. I was so taken aback that I blurted out that he didn't live here anymore. His boss was shocked. His brother also called to talk to him. I told him to try his cell. That was two months ago. Then, last week, his brother called again, but this time had just spoken to R and knew R had left. He called to tell me he was sorry and that he would always consider me part of the family, and if I needed anything..... His brother, by the way did the same thing to his wife of twenty years a few years ago. Anyway we chatted, and somehow he started talking about splitting things up like furniture and pots and pans. I remarked that I was pretty sure the woman R is with has pots and pans. There was a long pause, then he said, "R didn't tell me there was another woman." So he's telling people what he wants them to hear. I don't know if he has told his mother and sister and his brother said it was up to R, not him, to do that. So who knows if they know.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> My family (parents and brother) know as do my friends. Don't know about his. He hadn't told anyone for at least the first couple of months. His boss phoned here one day to talk to him. I was so taken aback that I blurted out that he didn't live here anymore. His boss was shocked. His brother also called to talk to him. I told him to try his cell. That was two months ago. Then, last week, his brother called again, but this time had just spoken to R and knew R had left. He called to tell me he was sorry and that he would always consider me part of the family, and if I needed anything..... His brother, by the way did the same thing to his wife of twenty years a few years ago. Anyway we chatted, and somehow he started talking about splitting things up like furniture and pots and pans. I remarked that I was pretty sure the woman R is with has pots and pans. There was a long pause, then he said, "R didn't tell me there was another woman." So he's telling people what he wants them to hear. I don't know if he has told his mother and sister and his brother said it was up to R, not him, to do that. So who knows if they know.


Tell everyone.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Tell everyone.


Why? If you mean his mother and sister, we are not close at all. Shouldn't that be his responsibility?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Why? If you mean his mother and sister, we are not close at all. Shouldn't that be his responsibility?


If you don't expose him to everyone, you're a silent partner in the affair - and making it easy for him and posOW.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> If you don't expose him to everyone, you're a silent partner in the affair - and making it easy for him and posOW.


I don't know. They live at the other end of the country. We never talk. His mother is a horrible person. I would not be comfortable phoning her at all. I could write a little note, I guess. I don't know what R's reaction would be. I don't want him mad. We still have to deal with our son's situation (see my other thread Advice Please).


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Last night for the first time, I dreamed about him. He and I were in a department store. Don't know why we were there together as he was still with the OW. He was wearing these ridiculous knee-high cowboy boots which had been her ex's that she wanted him to wear. Suddenly, he kicked them off. When I asked what he was doing he said he had made a mistake and wanted to be with me. That's when my daughter woke me up.

I just lay in bed. Couldn't get up. Wanted the dream back. Finally dragged myself out about an hour later. Didn't do my workout. Hate this.

Yesterday, my oldest came back from ten days in Mexico. He was telling me all about it and mentioned a place that R and I had been to years ago. I could picture it. Started to tear up. My son asked what was wrong so I told him his father and I had been there. He didn't know what to say and I quickly changed the subject. 

My oldest said that in three months he has had two emails from R (he's the only one of my three kids that have heard from him). R didn't answer the response that my son sent to his last one.

My other two kids moved all of R's things from where I had put them in the rec room into the garage. They said they should put them on the curb, but I wouldn't let them.

What has happened to our family? I've been mourning my loss of R, but I need to mourn the loss of the family we had.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I hadn't heard from R for a while and he didn't reply to my last email about our son. This morning I got an email saying that he had deposited the child support and the money he is giving me for this month in the joint account. I replied with two words, 'thank you'. Now, two hours later, there is another email responding to the one about our son. He is willing to help. He ended with a couple of questions about our daughter. Is she set for her next year of college? And how are her hamsters?

How are her hamsters?!!


What do you make of that? I'm itching to reply, but I'm going to wait a few hours....or maybe a day!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> I hadn't heard from R for a while and he didn't reply to my last email about our son. This morning I got an email saying that he had deposited the child support and the money he is giving me for this month in the joint account. I replied with two words, 'thank you'. Now, two hours later, there is another email responding to the one about our son. He is willing to help. He ended with a couple of questions about our daughter. Is she set for her next year of college? And how are her hamsters?
> 
> How are her hamsters?!!
> 
> ...


Tell him to call and ask her.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Tell him to call and ask her.


You are amazing! have you thought of doing this for a living?!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I still haven't responded to his last email and I owe the strength not to do that to all of you. If I didn't have you, I would have written back and included a long story about the hamsters (one of them keeps escaping). Not gonna do that. So thank you for all the advice.

I'm holding out answering 'till at least tonight and it will be a very brief answer to his question about our son. No hamster story, I promise. If he really wants to know,about them, he can ask his daughter. Thanks, Conrad.

I do wonder why he asked about them though. Could he be missing the family? Could it have been an attempt to get me to engage? But, whatever, I'm not spinning my wheels trying to read into it.
Something interesting. I have OCD, Not a debilitating case. More annoying than anything. Its somewhat controlled by meds. But since he left I have been trying to 'fix' things and make him come home. If you're familiar with OCD, you'll know what I mean. It has definitely flared up. It goes something like, "If I touch this thing .six times, he will come home." Its not always a totally conscious thing, but its there. Don't worry, I know its irrational, but I can't help it. I can fight it a bit, but its really hard around the husband issue. I'm not concerned OCD is only a real problem if it interferes with your ability to function. I am functioning just fine. Just sort of wish it would die down as far as the husband goes.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Toady I'm leaving for a few days to visit my brother and his wife. They have a trailer on a lake out in the middle of nowhere I have been SO looking forward to this! Not only do I need a break, but i need to just talk. My SIL went through the same thing that I am going through years ago. Husband had an affair. The marriage broke up. I'm sure it will be more than therapeutic talking with her.

I answered R's email last night. Simply responded to the question about our son. You'll be proud of me, Conrad. I told him if he wanted to know about the hamsters, he should ask our daughter. Have to admit, I am having some qualms. Did I sound mean. Is it going to make him think I don't like him anymore........Darn, I wish I weren't so insecure! After I sent it, the OCD picked up.

I need to just focus on this trip. I've laid down the law, but I'm praying that the kids don't have a party while I'm gone.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

I hope you have a great trip Frostflower. It often helps to talk to those we trust and confide in. Be well!


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Have fun!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> I hope you have a great trip Frostflower. It often helps to talk to those we trust and confide in. Be well!





UpnOver said:


> Have fun!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you. I am finally (almost) out of here. Had aimed for the 10:00 ferry. Looks like the 1:00 now. Can't believe how much is involved in getting away for a few days and leaving two kids behind.

Take care everyone!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

This trip may have been a mistake. Too much time driving alone. Time to think and to cry. And I'm not even at the trailer yet. I'm spending the night at my brother's condo to break up the trip. I'm alone as my brother and SIL are already at their trailer.

Oh, my gosh, I cried on and off most of the way and I have a four and a half hour drive tomorrow. I keep thinking that my husband is not in the car with me. How he is gone. That he left me for someone else. 

Definitely not having fun yet.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I'm sitting on my brother's patio drinking tea and thinking. His condo is so lovely.....clean, tidy, homey. Maybe if I had been able to create this at our house, he wouldn't have left. I know that's simplistic, but our house was just that, a house. It was a mess. Not homelike at all. Oh, he played a role in this. There were unfinished renos and tools, paint cans, etc.
all over the main living area. He was using our table as a workbench. I made him clear it off for Christmases and Thanksgivings, but the rest of the time. We ate in the living room in front of the t.v. And this is over three years. There has been a ladder on the stairs for three years. You have to maneuver your way around it.He didn't put things away because he was going to use them again.

In our bedroom, he had somany piles of outdated technical manuals, work bulletins and magazines he was going to read someday. The last few months, I couldn't open my bottom two dresser drawers without moving his stuff. When I moved it all after he left, there was actually mold on the walls.

I'm not blameless. As a teacher, I have accumulated tons of stuff. I also do crafts, so there is all that paraphernalia too. My kids call me a hoarder. I had reached a point where I realized I didn't need all the teaching stuff and I was never going to use all the craft stuff, so I started to purge and organize better. I don't think he even noticed.

I don't know. As the woman, I feel responsible for the state of the house. Maybe if it hadn't been so bad and had been more of a nest you'd want to come home to.....I don't know.

I'm leaving for the trailer shortly. It's going to be a long sad drive like yesterday. And then, being with my brother and SIL will be nice, but hard. They have such an amazing marriage. I've always envied them that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FrostFlower,
He did not leave because of the state of the house. He left because he lacked the strength needed to help the two of you pull out of the downward spiral. 

Perhaps to some degree the house reflected the state of your collective sadness. 

What is so striking about this thread is how, in his wake you have taken control of your own life while caring for your family.

At some point, you need to print this thread, and go put it with your legal papers, your will. Should keep a copy at the bank, in safety deposit. And with your will, pass this on. Your children, and their children should know the strength of the blood that runs through their veins. 




Frostflower said:


> I'm sitting on my brother's patio drinking tea and thinking. His condo is so lovely.....clean, tidy, homey. Maybe if I had been able to create this at our house, he wouldn't have left. I know that's simplistic, but our house was just that, a house. It was a mess. Not homelike at all. Oh, he played a role in this. There were unfinished renos and tools, paint cans, etc.
> all over the main living area. He was using our table as a workbench. I made him clear it off for Christmases and Thanksgivings, but the rest of the time. We ate in the living room in front of the t.v. And this is over three years. There has been a ladder on the stairs for three years. You have to maneuver your way around it.He didn't put things away because he was going to use them again.
> 
> In our bedroom, he had somany piles of outdated technical manuals, work bulletins and magazines he was going to read someday. The last few months, I couldn't open my bottom two dresser drawers without moving his stuff. When I moved it all after he left, there was actually mold on the walls.
> ...


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## Darrien (Mar 22, 2012)

Frostflower, No man leaves the woman he loves because of an untidy house.
More like his untidy mind and some posOW with untidy morals.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

FF.

I had the same thought and feeling as well. In the 6-7 years together we were never really able to establish a 'home' for ourselves.

But, we started a family young and that was the price to pay. Unable to afford anything because we spent our money on the kids and raising them.

The goal was to start working on that once we got the kids both into school and she could start working.

Guess her goal changed. It's now between her legs and some other posom is scoring.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Up,

It was your goal.

Drop the delusion.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

It doesn't matter about how the home was kept. Mine was so spotless and clean that you could eat off the floor. Dinners were usually made and i always cleaned up afterwards myself. I am a good cook yet he had issues with everything i made because he was so damn picky. I did all laundry, cooking, cleaning, yard work and most repairs. I catered to him 100%. I lost so much of myself. He still left and never wanted to work on the issues we had. Please don't blame yourself. I did it a long time and ended up with so many medical issue from it. You did your best. Someone who loves you would see that. Enjoy your trip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I'm back home. Had a great time. My brother and his wife were great. They listened, which was what I needed. We did nothing but chat, read and swim. I had the best sleeps I've had in months. I didn't realize how much I needed this.

R never really liked my brother and SIL. He said she is too loud. What she is is a confident woman who speaks her mind. He also felt that my brother and SIL bragged about their travels and lifestyle. Their kids are grown with families of their own. They retired, but work on contract to give them money to live the way they want to. They can afford a better home, travel and material things that we can't. I love hearing about their travels. I think R is jealous. 

Being back is a downer. Back to reality.

I'm pretty sure R just had a week off as the email I sent before I left telling him that if was thinking of coming over while I was away he should contact the kids (he didn't) got an automated out-of-office for a week reply. I can't help wondering what he was doing with his new 'family'. But I'm not letting it consume me.

Still, I wish he were here.

I started reading 'No More Mr. Nice Guy'. Holy Cow, that's me! Everyone says I am so incredibly nice. Maybe this book will give me some insight as to how I ended up with no husband.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I'm back home. Had a great time. My brother and his wife were great. They listened, which was what I needed. We did nothing but chat, read and swim. I had the best sleeps I've had in months. I didn't realize how much I needed this.
> 
> R never really liked my brother and SIL. He said she is too loud. What she is is a confident woman who speaks her mind. He also felt that my brother and SIL bragged about their travels and lifestyle. Their kids are grown with families of their own. They retired, but work on contract to give them money to live the way they want to. They can afford a better home, travel and material things that we can't. I love hearing about their travels. I think R is jealous.
> 
> ...


So what is wrong with me? I can't stop crying. I miss hi, damnit.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> So what is wrong with me? I can't stop crying. I miss hi, damnit.


Flower,

Waking up is painful.

Have you read Anthony DeMello's "Awareness?"


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Flower,
> 
> Waking up is painful.
> 
> Have you read Anthony DeMello's "Awareness?"


No. It's a book?

Oh God this hurts.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> No. It's a book?
> 
> Oh God this hurts.


http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf


Thank you, Conrad. I've read the first part. So, I never trusted R to be with me forever. I trusted my judgement that he would. Okay, I've only read that far and I will continue, but it leaves me wondering how do we trust in our judgement? How could we ever know, no not know 'cause we can never know the future, but how can we rely on our judgement enough to make life-changing decisions like marriage. It certainly looks like I blew it, but does that relieve him of responsibility? it didn't work because I made a bad judgement call which, by the way, I made on the basis of the information I had at the time. 

Stuff to think about.
At least I've stopped crying.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frost,

Start by forgiving yourself.

It takes 2 to succeed.

It takes 2 to fail.

You did your best.

But, letting this go (as he will advise you) will make your best better next time.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Frost,
> 
> Start by forgiving yourself.
> 
> ...


Answering the question would I choose R or happiness, I chose R. Reading further, perhaps I understand why. He says that we cannot fear the unknown. What we fear is the loss of the known. Though I'm not sure about the first part, I do agree that we fear the loss of the known. Absolutely, I fear the loss of R. I mourn that loss. But, doesn't the loss of what is known bring us into the unknown which he says we cannot fear? Therefore we should not fear period.

I have felt fear thinking that he is no longer with me, but today I just feel loss. I miss having a cup of tea with him. I miss coming home to him. I miss.....him.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

And, DeMello will advise you to experience that sadness and acknowledge it. But, don't let it define you.

It will pass.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> And, DeMello will advise you to experience that sadness and acknowledge it. But, don't let it define you.
> 
> It will pass.


Today it seems to be defining me a lot.

So, according to what I am reading, R's leaving was an act of self- preservation. He was overwhelmed and saw a way out. Yay for him. And I shouldn't be surprised because people are bad. Demello says to expect the worst. That's sad really.

I know, keep reading.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I think part of the problem today is that I miss my brother and SIL. We're not really close, but the whole time I was with them I felt so enveloped in love and family. Coming home, it hit anew that R is not here.

Finally stopped crying. The little white pills strike again.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I think part of the problem today is that I miss my brother and SIL. We're not really close, but the whole time I was with them I felt so enveloped in love and family. Coming home, it hit anew that R is not here.
> 
> Finally stopped crying. The little white pills strike again.


Another day of tears. It's been three and a half months. Why now?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I think part of the problem today is that I miss my brother and SIL. We're not really close, but the whole time I was with them I felt so enveloped in love and family. Coming home, it hit anew that R is not here.
> 
> Finally stopped crying. The little white pills strike again.


Another day of tears. It's been three and a half months. Why now?

These last two days I have really slipped. Overeating, not exercising, bitten all my nails off. It's like I'm punishing myself for something or maybe I am sliding further into depression. I've been doing so well and was so proud of myself. Going away seems to have changed that and I don't know why.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

After three days of crying, I think I have figured it out. I'm lonely. Being with my brother and SIL 24/7 for four days, then coming home and basically being on my own emphasized the fact that R ais not here and sent me into a tailspin. 

My oldest, who is on holiday from his job up North, is off on a fishing trip. My daughter is doing her own thing. My other son is packing for his move to another province. And he stays up till al hours, then sleeps most of the day anyway. Not that I should depend on them to be here for me, but after being with people so intensely at the trailer, it is really hitting me. 

I don't have real friends. It's funny, this has never happened to me before. We lived in a lot of different places before coming here and I always had lots of good friends. People are nice here, but it is difficult to make real friends. I've heard that from many people. Even my counsellor remarked on it. People seem to have their own circle and that's that.

The one friend I have is my cousin's wife, but she has multiple problems of her own and is in fact going through electric shock therapy to try and stabilize long-term depression. I can't unload too much on her. Others that I have become friendly with through work are of the opinion that R is scum and that I should push for divorce. It doesn't help me to hear that, so I haven't contacted them this summer.

I know I need to make some friends, but it is so hard. I don't even know how to do it. I've never had to work at it before. I've even considered trying an online dating site just so I can have someone in my life, but I know that would be a mistake.

R and I didn't share a lot of interests or have engaging conversations, but he was here and I miss him.

The past few days I've been moping, not doing much of anything. Yesterday I finally forced myself to go for a bike ride, which helped. Today I will make sure I get some things done around the house, spend some time on a hobby, and take the dog for a walk. Solitary stuff, but at least I won't be sitting around crying.

God, I hate this.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Are you a churchgoer?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Lapsed Catholic. I've thought of that. My parents attend the local church and are quite involved. There is only one Mass, so I would be attending at the same time. It sounds awful, but I don't want that. They mean well, but would be somewhat smothering, and I'd get 'you weren't there on Sunday....'. And they go for lunch after Mass every week. I would go because I wouldn't want to hurt their feelings.....

There is a church further away. Don't know if I have the motivation to get there. And should I be going to church just to meet people? I do believe in God, and I loved the whole 'culture' growing up. Just haven't been in years.

Funny, I stopped going in a roundabout way because of R. He is not a churchgoer and slept in every Sunday. Where we lived there was one Catholic church and again, one Mass. I tried taking the boys when they were little. They would run up and down the aisle, as did other kids and no-one seemed to mind, but it stressed me. R was not willing to get up so I could go alone. So I stopped going. Now I have all this guilt that they weren't raised in the church. My daughter isn't even baptized. I was depressed and just couldn't deal with it. I feel like I failed in that area.

Anyway I will consider it. I so suck at meeting people. I would probably go and not talk to anyone.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If you're a visitor, they'll talk to you.

All you need to do is ask questions about them.

They'll talk all day


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> If you're a visitor, they'll talk to you.
> 
> All you need to do is ask questions about them.
> 
> They'll talk all day


Sounds like you've had experience! Probably better to go to the other church where my folks won't be introduciNg me proudly to all their senior friends. Not that I have anything against seniors (technically one myself by some measures), but I need to meet people closer to my own age.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Sounds like you've had experience! Probably better to go to the other church where my folks won't be introduciNg me proudly to all their senior friends. Not that I have anything against seniors (technically one myself by some measures), but I need to meet people closer to my own age.


Agreed.

Why not look them up on the internet and see what they offer?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Why not look them up on the internet and see what they offer?


Followed that advice. They have three Masses in English (don't think I could manage Portugeuse!). Now all I need is the willpower. Wish me luck.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Followed that advice. They have three Masses in English (don't think I could manage Portugeuse!). Now all I need is the willpower. Wish me luck.


I wouldn't mind hearing Mass in Portuguese.

Would be a first for me.

I'll be thinking of you.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I wouldn't mind hearing Mass in Portuguese.
> 
> Would be a first for me.
> 
> I'll be thinking of you.


I miss the Latin! After five years of studying it, I'd actually be able to understand it if they ever brought it back.

Thanks for your support. I'll let you know what happens.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

```

```



Frostflower said:


> I miss the Latin! After five years of studying it, I'd actually be able to understand it if they ever brought it back.
> 
> Thanks for your support. I'll let you know what happens.


Portuguese is pretty close to latin!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

There we go. I'm all set. I knew all those hours parsing Virgil would pay off one day!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower, I read you story and I feel for you. 

It will get better but right now it's tough. Be strong. And don't be ashamed to let the pain out. Crying is the first stage in healing.

You sound to me like a very caring, interesting and special person, and I am sure you have some great relationships in your future.

Maybe consider taking an evening class or two to get out of the house and mix with other people. Try something you have never tried before and always wanted to.

P.S. Frostflower is a beautiful user name. Where does it derive from?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Frostflower, I read you story and I feel for you.
> 
> It will get better but right now it's tough. Be strong. And don't be ashamed to let the pain out. Crying is the first stage in healing.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your kind words. I would like to,learn more about photography as I love taking pictures, especially closeupa of flowers, mushrooms and ducks. Perhaps a course would be a good idea.

Funnily enough, I have R to thank for the name. When I got my laptop and wanted to set up an email account, he advised me not to use my name in the address. In retrospect, silly advice as most people do use their names. Anyway, I tried using my dog's name but it came back as unavailable. Every word I tried was 'unavailable'. I was running out of ideas when I remembered my bedroom window when I was a child. This was before double- or triple- glazed windows (am I dating myself?), so the pane was always covered in beautiful designs created by Jack Frost. Gardens of lovely flowers all painted in frost. Frostflowers. I tried that word for my email and it was unavailable. Really?! Then I did some thinking and plugged in a number after the word. It was accepted. So actually, I could have added a number to my dog's name and saved myself an hour of trying different words.

Sorry, that was a long story. I loved those flowers as a child and thinking of them always warms my heart. So I am Frostflower. 

Thank you for asking. How did you become Wazza?


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## Janie (Apr 10, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Thank you for your kind words. I would like to,learn more about photography as I love taking pictures, especially closeupa of flowers, mushrooms and ducks. Perhaps a course would be a good idea.


Another suggestion is to find local volunteer organizations - either a local chapter of a larger organization like Restore or Habitat for Humanity or something related to your city, community, etc. The people involved in these activities are from all different backgrounds yet are filled with positive energy and social consciousness and share a common vision. 

Your story is compelling. You will get where you need to be - your clarity is dawning at light speed and your priorities are well in order. Good luck to you


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Thank you for your kind words. I would like to,learn more about photography as I love taking pictures, especially closeupa of flowers, mushrooms and ducks. Perhaps a course would be a good idea.
> 
> Funnily enough, I have R to thank for the name. When I got my laptop and wanted to set up an email account, he advised me not to use my name in the address. In retrospect, silly advice as most people do use their names. Anyway, I tried using my dog's name but it came back as unavailable. Every word I tried was 'unavailable'. I was running out of ideas when I remembered my bedroom window when I was a child. This was before double- or triple- glazed windows (am I dating myself?), so the pane was always covered in beautiful designs created by Jack Frost. Gardens of lovely flowers all painted in frost. Frostflowers. I tried that word for my email and it was unavailable. Really?! Then I did some thinking and plugged in a number after the word. It was accepted. So actually, I could have added a number to my dog's name and saved myself an hour of trying different words.
> 
> ...


Hey FF,

Wazza is just an old nickname, no meaning that would make any sense on this board. But I can relate about the hassles of finding online names. Been there, done that 

Frost flowers sound really beautiful. Are the photos in this link the sort of thing you are describing?

Frost Photos

Photography is a really good choice for an interest, because it's expressive and therefore cathartic, plus it's an excuse to see some of the beauty in the world.

Flowers are a common subject for visual art, but what it is that draws you to mushrooms and ducks?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Janie said:


> Another suggestion is to find local volunteer organizations - either a local chapter of a larger organization like Restore or Habitat for Humanity or something related to your city, community, etc. The people involved in these activities are from all different backgrounds yet are filled with positive energy and social consciousness and share a common vision.
> 
> Your story is compelling. You will get where you need to be - your clarity is dawning at light speed and your priorities are well in order. Good luck to you [/QUOTE
> 
> Thanks, Janie. Sometimes I wonder why I'm not falling apart more than I am. After 32 years shouldn't I be more of a mess? I'm trying not to cling to the belief that he will realize his mistake and come back. I hope that's not what's holding me together. I just seem to have too much clarity.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Hey FF,
> 
> Wazza is just an old nickname, no meaning that would make any sense on this board. But I can relate about the hassles of finding online names. Been there, done that
> 
> ...


Oh, Wazza, aren't they beautiful? Thank you for the link. That was sweet of you. All of the pictures are lovely, but I prefer the natural ones to the manipulated ones. They brought tears to my eyes, they are so like what I remember. I can still picture the flowers on my window against the dark outside. I would turn off the light so I could see them better. 

Why do I like mushrooms? I don't know. They are rather mystical, don't you think? The way they appear in the morning mist. There was a fairy ring I used to visit in the woods behind our apartment (the one with the frostflower windows). Maybe that was what started my love of mushrooms. Or maybe it was skipping around the papier mâché toadstool at Brownies with the owl on top (I love owls too). Who really knows what plants the seeds of our passions?

As for ducks, 

"From troubles of the world
I turn to ducks,
Beautiful comical things....."
(Frederick William Harvey)

What's not to love?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Oh, Wazza, aren't they beautiful? Thank you for the link. That was sweet of you. All of the pictures are lovely, but I prefer the natural ones to the manipulated ones. They brought tears to my eyes, they are so like what I remember. I can still picture the flowers on my window against the dark outside. I would turn off the light so I could see them better.
> 
> Why do I like mushrooms? I don't know. They are rather mystical, don't you think? The way they appear in the morning mist. There was a fairy ring I used to visit in the woods behind our apartment (the one with the frostflower windows). Maybe that was what started my love of mushrooms. Or maybe it was skipping around the papier mâché toadstool at Brownies with the owl on top (I love owls too). Who really knows what plants the seeds of our passions?
> 
> ...


Mushrooms...the only place I get to see them is the supermarket. But I can get a glimmer of what you are saying. And the early morning light has a certain magic. Your homework, if you do the mushroom pictures, is to post them somewhere and share them with us all, educate us 

Ducks...well my most recent encounter was being attacked by one. I was cycling beside a lake near where I live and he was protecting his young. So they are cute but scary.

You have a nice rhythm to your words. Do you write or are you an avid reader and it's coming out as you type?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Mushrooms...the only place I get to see them is the supermarket. But I can get a glimmer of what you are saying. And the early morning light has a certain magic. Your homework, if you do the mushroom pictures, is to post them somewhere and share them with us all, educate us
> 
> Ducks...well my most recent encounter was being attacked by one. I was cycling beside a lake near where I live and he was protecting his young. So they are cute but scary.
> 
> You have a nice rhythm to your words. Do you write or are you an avid reader and it's coming out as you type?


Mmmm, supermarket mushrooms! Pizza! Stir fry!

We are blessed with so many different kinds of mushrooms where we live, more so in the winter. They are fun to photograph even though you have to lie on the cold, soggy ground and feel it seep into your joints.

Don't know that any of my pictures are worth posting, but I'll keep it in mind. You would have to walk me through the posting process though. Technology and I have an ongoing thing and it ain't purtty. Just ask the tech support at my school.

As for the duck attacking you,

"Yes, ducks are valiant things...."
(Frederick William Harvey)

Think how you must have looked zooming along on your metal monster!

I am avid reader, but I also do write. That is I write when I'm in a good space, which hasn't happened too often lately.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Mmmm, supermarket mushrooms! Pizza! Stir fry!
> 
> We are blessed with so many different kinds of mushrooms where we live, more so in the winter. They are fun to photograph even though you have to lie on the cold, soggy ground and feel it seep into your joints.
> 
> ...


I am not a very fast cyclist, and I could not outrun a flying duck. Valiant indeed, and ferocious, but I bore him no ill-will. My wife thought the whole thing really comical....he didn't attack her 

Writing is by it's nature introspective, so I understand the need for a current hiatus. But as things get better, you can return to it. I'm sure I'm not the first person to tell you you have a talent there.

If you decide to post mushroom pictures, yes I am happy to talk you through how. There's something nice about sharing one's art.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I am not a very fast cyclist, and I could not outrun a flying duck. Valiant indeed, and ferocious, but I bore him no ill-will. My wife thought the whole thing really comical....he didn't attack her
> 
> Writing is by it's nature introspective, so I understand the need for a current hiatus. But as things get better, you can return to it. I'm sure I'm not the first person to tell you you have a talent there.
> 
> If you decide to post mushroom pictures, yes I am happy to talk you through how. There's something nice about sharing one's art.


I'm curious about the juxtaposition of your sad face with the words about the duck not attacking your wife. Do you wish it had??

Yes, I have been told I have talent, by a writer no less. I've always known I am supposed to write, since I was a little girl. I haven't honored it and I feel like I am letting Someone down.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I'm curious about the juxtaposition of your sad face with the words about the duck not attacking your wife. Do you wish it had??
> 
> Yes, I have been told I have talent, by a writer no less. I've always known I am supposed to write, since I was a little girl. I haven't honored it and I feel like I am letting Someone down.


The sad face is that my wife was so horribly unsympathetic. Cruel her! 

What do you write?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> The sad face is that my wife was so horribly unsympathetic. Cruel her!
> 
> What do you write?


Just remember, it wasn't the duck's fault. In his place you would have done the same thing.

I write children's stories. It was a children's author that I took a course with who encouraged me. I started an adult novel, but that's about when I stopped writing. Am I allowed to brag? I will anyway. I won first prize in a poetry contest a few years ago, a real boost at a time in my life when I needed it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Just remember, it wasn't the duck's fault. In his place you would have done the same thing.
> 
> I write children's stories. It was a children's author that I took a course with who encouraged me. I started an adult novel, but that's about when I stopped writing. Am I allowed to brag? I will anyway. I won first prize in a poetry contest a few years ago, a real boost at a time in my life when I needed it.


Of course you are allowed to brag! Well done! Have you ever tried to get published?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Of course you are allowed to brag! Well done! Have you ever tried to get published?


Thanks. Yes, years ago. I sent a short story to a children's magazine. My first rejection letter. Reading the story years later, I could see why it wasn't accepted. I edited it drastically and used it in the course I took. Maybe I should try sending it in again.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

You should try again. Never die wondering!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> You should try again. Never die wondering!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's good advice. Once I get my life sorted out I will. It's one thing I don't want to have regrets about in my dotage.

Speaking of stories, Wazza, is yours somewhere here?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

What does it mean that R doesn't contact me? I'm trying not to let it get to me, but its starting to. He texted me once since I returned from my brother's to answer a question I had about a paint job I wanted to work on and he said he hoped I enjoyed my trip and that he would contact me about coming over to work on the house soon. (He had the week before off, but never came over.) That's been it. Its been about a month and a half since I've seen him. He still hasn't contacted the kids.

How can he just turn off like this? I hurt. The kids seem unaffected, but he is their father for crying out loud. A couple of months before he left, our daughter (18) got a tattoo on her foot that says 'family'. When I asked her why that, she said because family is important. Yesterday she came home with another one on her torso that says 'Life goes on.' She said she just likes the saying, but I wonder if it connected with her father's leaving.

This is a man who has trouble with emotion, but my God. Forget about his wife of 32 years, these are his children.


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## Janie (Apr 10, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> How can he just turn off like this?


I hope it's completely obvious to you that this is not about you. something in him has changed - like a circuit has blown somewhere. He is as lost to himself as he is to you right now. 

It is likely someday - maybe years - he will begin to 'snap outta it' and realize what a horrible thing he has done. 

Coldness & distance between separated spouses is not surprising (I'm not excusing anything, just saying it is difficult to truly understand both sides of a troubled marriage). 

Abandoning your CHILDREN is another issue entirely. They are innocent victims & entitled to a father's love. There is no valid reason to EVER deny them love. 

This leads me to believe he has gone a bit off the reservation. The extent of his write-off indicates a severe defect of some kind. 

How was he as a father while the kids were growing up? Detached? Loving?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Janie said:


> I hope it's completely obvious to you that this is not about you. something in him has changed - like a circuit has blown somewhere. He is as lost to himself as he is to you right now.
> 
> It is likely someday - maybe years - he will begin to 'snap outta it' and realize what a horrible thing he has done.
> 
> ...


In general, I don't believe it's about me, but sometimes I'm not sure. I know the first part of that sounds egotistical, but I know my husband and you're right, there is a defect. Which doesn't mean there is no fault on my part for what happened. 

R was raised in a dysfunctional, at times toxic, environment. I believe his mother has borderline personality disorder. Part of her makeup is that she doesn't like anyone. The second time I spent time with his family, I remarked that I thought his mum was starting to like me. He said, "Don't ever believe that. She doesn't like you because you are Catholic, your father is Polish, you're a teacher and you're quiet." I was basically dead in the water! And you know what? He was right on all counts!

Both R's brother and sister have major issues. (His brother cheated on his wife too.) R is the least affected, probably because during his first two years, he spent a lot of time with a loving grandmother and aunt, which because his family emigrated before they were born, his siblings did not. Still, his upbringing has had permanent effects. He does not have the skills needed to relate to people close to him. 

What kind of father was he? Well, I basically raised the children myself. He did do things with them, but not to the extent that other fathers we knew did with their kids. Our kids have all told me they think he is 'different' and 'weird'. It's a shame. He has missed so much. For example, I took the kids to most of their soccer games and practices. Our daughter played from grade one through grade twelve, but I could probably count the number of her games he has been to on less than all my fingers. I attended the vast majority of school functions and meetings with teachers and felt guilty if I pressured him to attend. Both boys had significant issues at school. I handled most of that. 

I honestly don't think he 'got' what real fatherhood was.

When our second was born, R took a week off work. I thought it would really help as the baby was up all night (till he was 13 months old as it turned out) and we had a two year old. I suggested that R take the two year old outside so that I could sleep while the baby napped. Well, he decided that he would transplant a tree. He was out there for hours digging it up. Being that it was mid-October in a very cold, snowy part of Canada, the two year old didn't last very long . So I didn't get a nap. The next day, R went out to dig again as he hadn't been able to get the tree out of the ground. I mentioned that I had hoped he could entertain our older son so that I could get some sleep. He responded rather huffily that the tree had to be transplanted now or it wouldn't survive. I got no sleep that day or the one after either. He finally managed to transplant the tree. I'm a nature lover, but I hated that tree. The following year, it died. I was so glad. I couldn't stand to look at it.

Long story, but the point is he could not prioritize his family over the tree. This is a man whose job involves constantly prioritizing issues, and he does it well. His job also involves a lot of communication and again he is good at it. But when it comes to people he is close to, it's another story.

He didn't say a word about not being happy. We were both extremely stressed. The last couple of months, living with him was like living with a dark cloud. He withdrew, I withdrew, but I thought it was all the stress around us and that we could fix us once the stress was relieved. Sadly, he chose to look somewhere else and then run away from it all. 

I try not to cling to the hope that he will come back, but I fear that if he ever realizes he has made a mistake and wants to, he won't know how to ask.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> That's good advice. Once I get my life sorted out I will. It's one thing I don't want to have regrets about in my dotage.
> 
> Speaking of stories, Wazza, is yours somewhere here?





Frostflower said:


> What does it mean that R doesn't contact me? I'm trying not to let it get to me, but its starting to. He texted me once since I returned from my brother's to answer a question I had about a paint job I wanted to work on and he said he hoped I enjoyed my trip and that he would contact me about coming over to work on the house soon. (He had the week before off, but never came over.) That's been it. Its been about a month and a half since I've seen him. He still hasn't contacted the kids.
> 
> How can he just turn off like this? I hurt. The kids seem unaffected, but he is their father for crying out loud. A couple of months before he left, our daughter (18) got a tattoo on her foot that says 'family'. When I asked her why that, she said because family is important. Yesterday she came home with another one on her torso that says 'Life goes on.' She said she just likes the saying, but I wonder if it connected with her father's leaving.
> 
> This is a man who has trouble with emotion, but my God. Forget about his wife of 32 years, these are his children.


Well, I don't log on for a few hours, and so much happens. 

Let me talk to both your posts.

My story - bits of it on other people's threads, I don't have or want my own. Married almost 30 years. At a low point in our marriage 22 years ago, wife had an affair. Things were crap, I stayed for the sake of the children, with no hope of rebuilding but we eventually did. 

But there were a lot of times when, had the stars aligned differently, I could conceive either of us giving up on the marriage. And if your partner isn't trying, it doesn't matter what you do, you can't make it work.

R stopped trying. He didn't turn off the day he messaged you he was leaving. That was just the fallout. You know that, much as it hurts.

All you can do is rebuild your life. Your daughter's second tattoo is right. And as you said in an earlier post, don't be bitter.

This is so sad. I'm wish there was something happy I could write. I am sure you have a happy future. It's just hard for you to see that right now.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza, I'm so glad you and your wife were able to make things work. Thanks for sharing.

It's really hard to see a happy future right now, evn though intellectually I know its possible if I believe.

One thing that I truly, deeply believed about R was that he would always be faithful. He would never cheat and, no matter what, he would always be with me. He stayed through my depression and, believe me, it was no picnic. 

Guess I was blind, but I never saw signs that he was going to leave. I knew he was stressed and was showing signs that his depression wasn't under control. I was in the same stressed boat. There were times I wanted to run awayl, not from him, but from the stress. 

He was never late from work. I guess it's possible he was leaving earlier and seeing her between work and home, but I don't see how. She has a daycare a forty minute drive from where he works. She wouldn't have been able to meet him and he rode his bike to work most days. If he went out on the weekends, it was to the hardware store and he did return with stuff he'd bought. 

I honestly had no idea. 

He did spend time in the evenings on the computer, but he always has. He's a researcher. Not as a profession, but if we needed a new toaster, for example, he would research it to death to find the best one. Our retirement plain was to get an RV or fith wheel and travel North America. He started looking into options years ago, even though we still had years to work. Sometimes he drove me crazy, but he enjoyed doing it. I guess it's possible that he met her online. That means he went looking, which hurts even more.

When he did leave, I didn't find out about the OW for a few weeks. I thought it was all the stress that caused him to go. I understood that. My brother said he bet there was someone else, and I said absolutely not. I believed in R that much. Does that make me naive or stupid?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Inexperienced


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Inexperienced


That's true. I don't have a lot of experience with men. Went to an all girl's school and in grade 11 they amalgamated the boys and girls. First day of school I went home sick 'cause I couldn't handle it!

I've only been intimate with two men, one being R.

So, inexperienced, yes.

I've just returned from my bi-weekly appointment with my family doctor who is keeping an eye on me. He suggested having a weekly agenda book and writing in things to do each day (since I came back from my trip, I'm not getting much done). He said to keep it to small, easily accomplished things to begin with like sweep the porch. And to put things like walk along the seafront, then go for coffee. I'm going to go and buy an agenda after I finish writing this.

he also suggested, and I'd like your opinion on this, that I tell R that if he wants to come and work on the house, that I offer to be absent. My doctor is R 's doctor, so he knows him. He feels it may be guilt that is keeping R from coming over and it might be easier if I'm not around. There has been no confrontation when I've been here . I've tried to keep things light and friendly. But maybe my doc is right. We need to fix up the house, so he has to come over.

If I do this, I think I would like to be here, then leave. I would like him to get a glimpse at least of a confident, friendly woman with a thinner body and a new hairstyle. Eat your heart out, R!

I respect everyone's opinions here and would like to hear what you think.

My doc also asked if I wanted to see him weekly, but I'm going to try the agenda suggestion and some of the things that have been suggested here and see if I can drag myself out of this funk. I do have an appointment with the counsellor next Monday. So I'll see how it goes.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I suspect that many marriages end not with a bang but a whimper. Someone just wakes up one day and says "I can't do this any more."

I would give R the space to work on the house without you there, because the thesis of his guilt makes sense, and if you can mitigate that it might help his relationship with your children. But it's a hell of an ask for you emotionally. Are you strong enough? Is there something we can do to support you?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I suspect that many marriages end not with a bang but a whimper. Someone just wakes up one day and says "I can't do this any more."
> 
> I would give R the space to work on the house without you there, because the thesis of his guilt makes sense, and if you can mitigate that it might help his relationship with your children. But it's a hell of an ask for you emotionally. Are you strong enough? Is there something we can do to support you?


Thank you, Wazza. I don't know that it would help his relationship with his children. They want nothing to do with him and I'm sure would make sure they weren't around.

What can you do to support me? Just be here when I whimper.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Thank you, Wazza. I don't know that it would help his relationship with his children. They want nothing to do with him and I'm sure would make sure they weren't around.
> 
> What can you do to support me? Just be here when I whimper.


You can't control it, you can only try things and see what works. And give it time. 

Whimper away whenever you want.  You write beautifully, and though I am sad for you, I enjoy reading your words.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> You can't control it, you can only try things and see what works. And give it time.
> 
> Whimper away whenever you want.  You write beautifully, and though I am sad for you, I enjoy reading your words.


Thank you, Wazza. You know how to bring a smile to a girl's heart.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I bought the agenda. Will start it today. And, every night I'm going to put at the bottom of the day something that I'm grateful for. I think it is Opera who talks about gratitude journals. It will help remind me that that there are happy things in my life. Tonight, my very first gratitude thought will be that I have all of you.

Last night's gratitude, if I had been keeping the journal would have been the lovely family dinner we had. My oldest returned from a fishing expedition on which he caught a 23 pound halibut and several salmon. My middle one, who loves cooking, prepared an amazing meal with both types of fish. My parents came over as did my daughter's boyfriend, and we had a really nice time. There are things to be thankful for.

One thing this agenda may help me with is being nice to myself. i am not very good at that. If I go out to run errands, for example, I start with the promise to myself of stopping for coffee somewhere. But, when I've done my running around and it's time to treat myself, I figure why buy coffee when I can go home and make it. Can't even buy myself a coffee! Perhaps writing it down will create some accountability to myself.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Just crossed the first thing off my first daily list. The rush of relief spiced with a tiny feeling of power is amazing! It was a small item I'd been putting off becUse I dread doing financial stuff. I always imagine the horrible complicated procedures and they're all my fault. Just had to switch the garbage collection payments from his credit card to mine over the phone. Did it! Except for being transferred to the wrong department, which was not my fault, it went smoothly. The world is my oyster!


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Glad to hear the dinner went great!

Although I'm upset I wasn't invited! Lol jk 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> Glad to hear the dinner went great!
> 
> Although I'm upset I wasn't invited! Lol jk
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL You can come for leftovers tonight. Bring wine!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I am really confused. In another thread someone wrote that if your spouse is having an affair, you need to act to shut it down by filing for divorce, that that is what is generally advised here. i don't remember ever reading that. I have been doing the 180. For me. But I haven't brought up the subject of divorces. We haven't even pursued a legal separation. I've been giving him the space to work through his own turmoil. Am I doing the wrong thing? I don't know if he will ever come back. I don't know if I want him back , definitely not unless there are major changes. But the thought of pushing for D terrifies me. Am I doing it all wrong?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I am really confused. In another thread someone wrote that if your spouse is having an affair, you need to act to shut it down by filing for divorce, that that is what is generally advised here. i don't remember ever reading that. I have been doing the 180. For me. But I haven't brought up the subject of divorces. We haven't even pursued a legal separation. I've been giving him the space to work through his own turmoil. Am I doing the wrong thing? I don't know if he will ever come back. I don't know if I want him back , definitely not unless there are major changes. But the thought of pushing for D terrifies me. Am I doing it all wrong?


This was clarified for me back on the other thread, but now I am feeling like I've blown it.

I had no inkling that my husband was involved with another woman, so the chance to shut it down before he moved out was lost. He's out. I've been letting it ride as I said above, but now it seems that I should have taken a tough stance and told him I wanted a D. Oh, shoot, I am so mixed up. I just got over four days of crying, now I'm doing it again.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> This was clarified for me back on the other thread, but now I am feeling like I've blown it.
> 
> I had no inkling that my husband was involved with another woman, so the chance to shut it down before he moved out was lost. He's out. I've been letting it ride as I said above, but now it seems that I should have taken a tough stance and told him I wanted a D. Oh, shoot, I am so mixed up. I just got over four days of crying, now I'm doing it again.


Frost, don't despair. That strategy only has a chance when the ws is still cake eating and confused about what they want. Your H had an exit affair, he used it to escape a marriage he checked out of long before he physically moved out. 

My wife did the same. I took the tough stance. She could have cared less because she was long gone by then. No confusion on her part about whether she wanted me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

spun said:


> Frost, don't despair. That strategy only has a chance when the ws is still cake eating and confused about what they want. Your H had an exit affair, he used it to escape a marriage he checked out of long before he physically moved out.
> 
> My wife did the same. I took the tough stance. She could have cared less because she was long gone by then. No confusion on her part about whether she wanted me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But that destroys any hope I had of R.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> But that destroys any hope I had of R.


How can I not despair?


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> But that destroys any hope I had of R.


Hope is keeping you paralyzed. It did for me too for six months. 

I've let go of it now. And you know what? I can feel the weight starting to lift.

That does not mean if my wife turned towards me I might not find myself receptive. But, it does mean that I am no longer attached to a particular outcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> How can I not despair?


Because you could never do anything about it. 

Take relief in that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

spun said:


> Hope is keeping you paralyzed. It did for me too for six months.
> 
> I've let go of it now. And you know what? I can feel the weight starting to lift.
> 
> ...





spun said:


> Because you could never do anything about it.
> 
> Take relief in that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I had known about the affair, I would have fought. 

Right now I feel that I failed because I didn't realize how bad things were for him.

So, there is no hope? All I can do is ask for a divorce? No, let the new me, shaped by what I have learned on this forum, rephrase that: All I can do is tell him I want a divorce?


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> If I had known about the affair, I would have fought.
> 
> Right now I feel that I failed because I didn't realize how bad things were for him.
> 
> So, there is no hope? All I can do is ask for a divorce? No, let the new me, shaped by what I have learned on this forum, rephrase that: All I can do is tell him I want a divorce?


You don't ask for a divorce if you don't want one. 

Let go of your attachment to a specific outcome. It will keep you stuck and does absolutely nothing to influence the probability of that outcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sunshine33 (Aug 4, 2012)

Frost flower, I have read your story. My heart breaks for you. Your husbands family sounds exactly like my in laws. So different from my own family. I talk to my extended family more regularly than my husband talks to his immediate family. I don't get it. But then again, I feel like there is something fundamentally wrong with my MIL to raise such narcissists. Three of them. 

You are fortunate to have your family and grown children near you through this. Lean on them. If you are close with your family members, talk to them about your feelings. I hope you are discussing the events in your life with more than just the Internet. Personally, I truly believe my strength has come from all the amazing women in my life, some family and some friends, that have expressed their support and love for me in the past few weeks. People that remind me every time I talk to them how loved I am and give me the confidence to BELIEVE that regardless of what my husband does, I will be better than okay. Didn't happen overnight but I believe it more with each passing day. 

Frost flower, why do you want to stay married to this man? Comfort? Fear of the unknown? Why haven't you filed for divorce? Not trying to be harsh, but have you asked yourself these questions? I can't imagine that the man that left you, resembles the man you married. Mourn the loss of the man you married. Start doing things for yourself too. Organize, start small so you dont get overwhelmed. Exercise, even if it's just walking your pet if you have one. Walk with you daughter. You can't change your husband but you can change yourself. Have faith in yourself


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

spun said:


> You don't ask for a divorce if you don't want one.
> 
> Let go of your attachment to a specific outcome. It will keep you stuck and does absolutely nothing to influence the probability of that outcome.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, I'm not sifting through this very well.

Moving quickly to D might work to shock them out of it if the spouse hasn't left yet? Once s/he has left, it is basically over? So D is now aimed at retaining my self-esteem? 

But now I don't get the don't ask for D unless you want it bit. I don't want it, but after tonight, it seems like the only way not to be a door mat.

Maybe I'm too tired to figure it all out. Maybe it will make more sense in the morning.

Thank you for that second paragraph. You are right, I am still in my heart attached to a specific outcome, that he come back to me. I know I can't move on until I let go of that. It's just so damn hard.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Sunshine33 said:


> Frost flower, I have read your story. My heart breaks for you. Your husbands family sounds exactly like my in laws. So different from my own family. I talk to my extended family more regularly than my husband talks to his immediate family. I don't get it. But then again, I feel like there is something fundamentally wrong with my MIL to raise such narcissists. Three of them.
> 
> You are fortunate to have your family and grown children near you through this. Lean on them. If you are close with your family members, talk to them about your feelings. I hope you are discussing the events in your life with more than just the Internet. Personally, I truly believe my strength has come from all the amazing women in my life, some family and some friends, that have expressed their support and love for me in the past few weeks. People that remind me every time I talk to them how loved I am and give me the confidence to BELIEVE that regardless of what my husband does, I will be better than okay. Didn't happen overnight but I believe it more with each passing day.
> 
> Frost flower, why do you want to stay married to this man? Comfort? Fear of the unknown? Why haven't you filed for divorce? Not trying to be harsh, but have you asked yourself these questions? I can't imagine that the man that left you, resembles the man you married. Mourn the loss of the man you married. Start doing things for yourself too. Organize, start small so you dont get overwhelmed. Exercise, even if it's just walking your pet if you have one. Walk with you daughter. You can't change your husband but you can change yourself. Have faith in yourself


Sunshine, thank you for your words. I guess it's true that you can't chooses your family. I'm pretty sure that R would have chosen a different bio family if he could have. His mother didn't come to our wedding or his brother's (he married a Jewish lady). She went to her daughter's who married an Anglican which is their religion (although they never practiced), but she complained about the church, saying it was snobby (it was in a well-to-do area). Honestly, you can't win! My husband never had a chance from the time they emigrated.

I have talked to others. Some of my co-workers were really supportive. Now that school is out, I miss that, but it starts up again in three weeks (sigh!). My cousin and his wife have also been great but they have a lot on their plates. I've another friend who has just divorced her husband, But she asked him to leave and so has a very different viewpoint. My brother and his wife were great. I think part of the reason I was down after my visit there was that they are so in love. On a subconscious level that may have been hard on me although I did enjoy being with them.

I don't really know why I want him back, or if I truly do. I see him as damaged by his upbringing, not that that is an excuse for what he has done, but it helps me understand him. He didn't have the skills to talk to me about how he felt. He is not good at asking for help, so when things got so stressful he wasn't able to talk to our doctor or seek counselling. I guess the OW came along somehow and made a connection with him that I couldn't.

I think also, comfort has a lot to do with it. Being with him is all I've known for 32 years. fear of the unknown? Yep, that too. I am trying to do things for myself, but I'm not good at it. But I will keep trying. Promise!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Hey FF,

The first thing is, you can make it. You are hurting like hell right now but you are still going on. And you have to do that. Your children need you to.

Basically there is no recipe to fix this problem. So take stock of what you know.

Your husband has left you, without communicating or giving you a chance to fix things, and in a less than courageous way. Whatever problems led to that situation, his response is wrong and cruel in my view. You have a right to be angry and hurt.

He has given you no indication that he is coming back. You want him back but you can't control him.

So you can wait. Or you can initiate divorce. And you have to make that choice.

Waiting won't bring him back. Divorcing him doesn't prevent you reuniting if he returns, though it does draw a line under things. 

I guess in your shoes I would set a time limit for waiting, and focus on building a new life for myself.

Wish I had something more spectacular to suggest.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Hey FF,
> 
> The first thing is, you can make it. You are hurting like hell right now but you are still going on. And you have to do that. Your children need you to.
> 
> ...


Hi Wazza. The fact that you and everyone else here are supporting me is pretty spectacular in itself. I wish there was one piece of advice or a roadmap or a pill that would make everything better. But there isn't and I know I have to make this decision. 

He's had four months. He's not contacting me. Whether that because he's done or whether it's because he's ashamed, I don't know, but it doesn't matter. The result is the same. He's deserted the marriage.

I have been waiting, giving him a chance to change his mind because I believe he was (is?) in turmoil. But, reading what everyone wrote last night has me thinking. I think it was Spun who mentioned open marriage,and that's what I'm in. A weird open marriage in which he's having all the fun. Sitting here doing nothing about it makes it look like I'm okay with it. I'm not. And, fragile and insecure as I am, I have too much self-esteem to live like this. I'm going to talk it through with my IC on Monday, but it looks like I've made my decision, doesn't it?

If I do tell him I want a D, I will do it in person, face to face. I think that's only fair to me. He needs to face me, not read it on a computer screen.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Good luck Fastflower. I am sorry you are going through this. These things are not fair. You do not deserve this but there comes a time when you have to do what is right for yourself. I hope your counselor can help you through this.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Good luck Fastflower. I am sorry you are going through this. These things are not fair. You do not deserve this but there comes a time when you have to do what is right for yourself. I hope your counselor can help you through this.


It's funny, when I first saw that the counsellor was a guy, I thought, 'Oh, darn. How is he going to understand what I''m going through.' But in actual fact, it's been good getting his perspective. When he affirmed what I was feeling, I felt relief. A guy was saying that what I was feeling was normal and okay. 

Maybe men aren't so bad after all! :awink:


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> It's funny, when I first saw that the counsellor was a guy, I thought, 'Oh, darn. How is he going to understand what I''m going through.' But in actual fact, it's been good getting his perspective. When he affirmed what I was feeling, I felt relief. A guy was saying that what I was feeling was normal and okay.
> 
> Maybe men aren't so bad after all! :awink:


My therapist is a woman.

Ironically enough, the same one the ex and I went to talk to several years ago.

It didn't go well at all back then, she remembered us (we only had 2 or so sessions).

Back then my eyes were closed and my heart wasn't in it, she's a great therapist afterall.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> My therapist is a woman.
> 
> she's a great therapist afterall.


Well, of course, she's a woman!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Earlier today I emailed R, first time in a week and a half, with an itemized estimate of what our son needs to get to another city, and live until he finds a job. It's a horrendous amount as it includes paying off debts so he will have a phone and credit card and insurance which includes an amount owed and enough to insure his car for three months. R had asked for this breakdown when he said he was willing to help out. I ended with'what do you think?'

Just got a reply. He asked a few questions about some items, then ended with 'I have work on the go'. I've been using his work email ever since the 'hacker' incident and he's never said anything like that before. If he is busy, he could have waited till after work to answer. What the heck? Is he trying to make me feel insignificant or am I reading too much into it?

Since he didn't say anything about helping, I emailed back, answered his questions and ended with 'what I wanted to know is are you going to help out financially?'. 

Have to tell you, in the past I would have jumped and answered his email right away. This time, I looked at all the TAM messages first. I think I'm making some progress here!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Got an answer to my question: 'Of course. I'll forward some money."

I talked to my son about the fact that, even though I had told him before that his Dad couldn't help him, he was going to. I told him the email saying he would not help was a mistake. He questioned me , so I told him that someone had accessed R's account and sent the email. It took my son two seconds to figure out who did it. I asked him not to tell his siblings that the girlfriend had done this. Don't know if he will follow that or not.

I told him because I knew that he was feeling that his Dad had written him off and I didn't want him to feel that way. I thought it would help. However later, on our way to the bank, He said something derogatory about R. I asked him to stop and reminded him that R is still his father. He replied, "no, he's not.".

What has this man done?!!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Got an answer to my question: 'Of course. I'll forward some money."
> 
> I talked to my son about the fact that, even though I had told him before that his Dad couldn't help him, he was going to. I told him the email saying he would not help was a mistake. He questioned me , so I told him that someone had accessed R's account and sent the email. It took my son two seconds to figure out who did it. I asked him not to tell his siblings that the girlfriend had done this. Don't know if he will follow that or not.
> 
> ...


That is why you need to be strong. Exactly why.

My father went to the grave estranged from one of my brothers, and now that it's too late to heal the rift the brother has fallen apart over it.

P.S. A+ for how you handled all that!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> That is why you need to be strong. Exactly why.
> 
> My father went to the grave estranged from one of my brothers, and now that it's too late to heal the rift the brother has fallen apart over it.
> 
> P.S. A+ for how you handled all that!


Thanks. Guess I was doubting myself and thinking I should have left it alone. But I didn't think that would be fair to my son or to R.

Wish I knew how to help mend the rift between R and the kids.

I had a rough time earlier. My daughter whinnied (yet again) about emptying the dishwasher. The only things she has to do are empty it every couple of days and feed the dog once a day (I give him his breakfast). She worked all day, why should she have to empty the dishwasher?!! Then my son, yes the one I'm helping, criticized me for some small thing. I couldn't take it anymore. I went to my room and had a good cry. Of course , thoughts of R crept in and made it worse. I've stayed in my room for two hours. Doesn't seem to concern them. Oh well, at least I can hear the dishwasher being emptied.


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## Sunshine33 (Aug 4, 2012)

FF, the only person that can repair the relationship between father and children, is their father. He can be a sh*tty husband, but he is also being a poor father and that is tragic for them. That must be extremely frustrating. All you can do is be a supportive parent and don't bad mouth him to them. Besides that, well, his actions are speaking for themselves. Your kids are old enough to come to their own conclusions. Hopefully in time he makes amends with them. Hopefully they find it in their hearts to forgive him. 

I know when I was a teen and my parents asked me to do something I sometimes gave them a big attitude. It's the age. They aren't giving you a hard time just to make your life harder, it's just a really selfish age. Don't feel bad about crying though. Just do your best to cry, let it out, and then pick yourself back up. After all, the dish washer got emptied


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Sunshine33 said:


> FF, the only person that can repair the relationship between father and children, is their father. He can be a sh*tty husband, but he is also being a poor father and that is tragic for them. That must be extremely frustrating. All you can do is be a supportive parent and don't bad mouth him to them. Besides that, well, his actions are speaking for themselves. Your kids are old enough to come to their own conclusions. Hopefully in time he makes amends with them. Hopefully they find it in their hearts to forgive him.


True, but the mother can assist the healing by (a) not badmouthing the father even when he deserves it, (b) getting things on a stable footing (the separation is impacting the children as well as ff) and (c) not asking the children to take sides and support her in her struggles against him.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Sunshine33 said:


> FF, the only person that can repair the relationship between father and children, is their father. He can be a sh*tty husband, but he is also being a poor father and that is tragic for them. That must be extremely frustrating. All you can do is be a supportive parent and don't bad mouth him to them. Besides that, well, his actions are speaking for themselves. Your kids are old enough to come to their own conclusions. Hopefully in time he makes amends with them. Hopefully they find it in their hearts to forgive him.
> 
> I know when I was a teen and my parents asked me to do something I sometimes gave them a big attitude. It's the age. They aren't giving you a hard time just to make your life harder, it's just a really selfish age. Don't feel bad about crying though. Just do your best to cry, let it out, and then pick yourself back up. After all, the dish washer got emptied


Turns out it didn't get emptied. The sounds I heard were more dirty dishes being piled up on top of the ones already on the counter. And my daughter has gone out. I know they are not just trying to make my life harder. I 'm oversensitive lately. It doesn't take much for me to get teary.

But, I am not emptying the dishwasher! Maybe when there are no more clean dishes, she'll get the message. I would refuse to let her use the car till she complies, but her brother who has gone back North to work, is letting her use his truck. There went my best leverage!


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Frostflower, I have read your story and it sure sounds to me like you have your act together. 
You already know that I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, so I won't try to offer any advice right now. I'm just one more person listening and caring.

Be strong.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> True, but the mother can assist the healing by (a) not badmouthing the father even when he deserves it, (b) getting things on a stable footing (the separation is impacting the children as well as ff) and (c) not asking the children to take sides and support her in her struggles against him.


I'm doing all that. I have never bad mouthed him and I call them on it when they do. Things are pretty much stable. Because they are older and he wasn't really an active part of their lives, not much has changed. They all have their own lives and aren't home that much. And I would never ask them to take sides. In fact, there are no sides to take. We rarely fought when he was here and we're not fighting now. he's gone. It just is.

They are hurt and disgusted by what he has done. He will have to make the first moves but, as I said in an earlier post, I don't think he knows how. And I don't know how to help.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I'm doing all that. I have never bad mouthed him and I call them on it when they do. Things are pretty much stable. Because they are older and he wasn't really an active part of their lives, not much has changed. They all have their own lives and aren't home that much. And I would never ask them to take sides. In fact, there are no sides to take. We rarely fought when he was here and we're not fighting now. he's gone. It just is.
> 
> They are hurt and disgusted by what he has done. He will have to make the first moves but, as I said in an earlier post, I don't think he knows how. And I don't know how to help.


And I gave you an A+ earlier. To be doing such a good job when your own life has been dealt such a sh*tty blow is even more admirable.

Now if we can just get your otherwise perfect writing to include a few more of those anglo-saxon crudities that are the only way to truly express such horrible emotions...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Turns out it didn't get emptied. The sounds I heard were more dirty dishes being piled up on top of the ones already on the counter. And my daughter has gone out. I know they are not just trying to make my life harder. I 'm oversensitive lately. It doesn't take much for me to get teary.
> 
> But, I am not emptying the dishwasher! *Maybe when there are no more clean dishes, she'll get the message.* I would refuse to let her use the car till she complies, but her brother who has gone back North to work, is letting her use his truck. There went my best leverage!


For the win!!!

My children are the same.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Frostflower, I have read your story and it sure sounds to me like you have your act together.
> You already know that I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, so I won't try to offer any advice right now. I'm just one more person listening and caring.
> 
> Be strong.


For Heaven's sake, Un, a little more self-esteem, please! You're one of the brightest bulbs on my tree!

Thank you for caring.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> For the win!!!
> 
> My children are the same.


LOL! I know it's typical. My coping abilities are worn thin these days. Thanks for the reminder.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> And I gave you an A+ earlier. To be doing such a good job when your own life has been dealt such a sh*tty blow is even more admirable.
> 
> Now if we can just get your otherwise perfect writing to include a few more of those anglo-saxon crudities that are the only way to truly express such horrible emotions...


Stop making me laugh, Wazza! I'm supposed to be miserable here.


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## Sunshine33 (Aug 4, 2012)

I have to admit, my mom would pull the same thing with me LOL I was a difficult teen/young adult. My poor parents. They still love me so I am pretty thankful of that. The best thing you can do is be loving and encouraging to your kids regardless of what your husband is doing. They will never forget your support. And unfortunately it will be a long time before they forgive your husband for his lack of support. 

You are strong FF, believe in yourself. 

I replaced one of the picture frames in our living room of us, to a sheet of scrapbook paper and I wrote "this too shall pass" on it. I see it multiple times a day. It is true. You have to believe that your life won't always be like this. And then do something everyday to ensure it. You will make it through this.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Stop making me laugh, Wazza! I'm supposed to be miserable here.


When you swear at me my work is done.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Sunshine33 said:


> I have to admit, my mom would pull the same thing with me LOL I was a difficult teen/young adult. My poor parents. They still love me so I am pretty thankful of that. The best thing you can do is be loving and encouraging to your kids regardless of what your husband is doing. They will never forget your support. And unfortunately it will be a long time before they forgive your husband for his lack of support.
> 
> You are strong FF, believe in yourself.
> 
> I replaced one of the picture frames in our living room of us, to a sheet of scrapbook paper and I wrote "this too shall pass" on it. I see it multiple times a day. It is true. You have to believe that your life won't always be like this. And then do something everyday to ensure it. You will make it through this.


That's a good idea, Sunshine. I had thought of putting a stickie on the bathroom mirror with a positive message on it, but I haven't done it yet. I'll put it on my agenda for tomorrow. The agenda, by the way, is working well. I'm getting things done and getting a real sense of accomplishment crossing them off.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> When you swear at me my work is done.


That is not a motivator. If you think your work is done, you will leave.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> That is not a motivator. If you think your work is done, you will leave.


Damn you are good! 

You may swear at me anyway, I'll stay around. My wife and kids swear at me all the time. Haven't got rid of me yet.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Damn you are good!
> 
> You may swear at me anyway, I'll stay around. My wife and kids swear at me all the time. Haven't got rid of me yet.


They may have reason to swear at you.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Frost,

If my son ever said something like that saying I'm not his father, I'd probably die. I don't get why some fathers do this to their kids. If there's one thing I won't mess up is being a father to my son. 

Stay strong.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> Frost,
> 
> If my son ever said something like that saying I'm not his father, I'd probably die. I don't get why some fathers do this to their kids. If there's one thing I won't mess up is being a father to my son.
> 
> Stay strong.


I pray that none of my kids ever say that to his face. 

I am trying hard not to have them think that this is about them. It's been an uphill battle. My son's bad choices resulted in so much stress. My daughter could be so disrespectful towards her father ( what teenage girl isn't?). I'm sure they feel some responsibility and I don't want them to wear that. He chose to deal with our stresses by running, not away from them, but from the stress and from our supposedly crappy marriage. 

But he is their father and I will never say anything against him to them.

Another thing I won't do is tell my daughter that the OW has a nine year old daughter. i worry that she may feel she has been replaced.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Lying in bed this morning, I realized something. In her bogus email pretending to be R, the OW made statements like, 'this is the last summer I am going to support you' (I don't, by the way, expect summer support after this one. I will be able to take care of myself.). She also talked about how I should have been on a twelve-month pay plan and had a savings account so that I wouldn't need help. Then she put down a deadline for selling the house. All money-related. Do you think she's after his?! 

I bet he hasn't told her that the lawyer I spoke to said I should be entitled to more than 50% of the house or that we have a marriage contract (required in the province where we married) that says he has to pay me $20,000 if he leaves me. 

He doesn't make huge bucks.

Boy, if money is part of the attraction, she's in for a shock!

i love it!!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Just filled in a profile on a site for online pen pals. Gosh, I sound boring!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Lying in bed this morning, I realized something. In her bogus email pretending to be R, the OW made statements like, 'this is the last summer I am going to support you' (I don't, by the way, expect summer support after this one. I will be able to take care of myself.). She also talked about how I should have been on a twelve-month pay plan and had a savings account so that I wouldn't need help. Then she put down a deadline for selling the house. All money-related. Do you think she's after his?!
> 
> I bet he hasn't told her that the lawyer I spoke to said I should be entitled to more than 50% of the house or that we have a marriage contract (required in the province where we married) that says he has to pay me $20,000 if he leaves me.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing the reality of life might be replacing the affair la la land a bit.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I'm guessing the reality of life might be replacing the affair la la land a bit.


Oh hi, Wazza. it's earlynfor you.

*Why can't he see that?.:scratchhead:*


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Oh hi, Wazza. it's earlynfor you.
> 
> *Why can't he see that?.:scratchhead:*


He might be starting I guess. Not enough information for a reasoned guess.
P.S. sent a pm


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> He might be starting I guess. Not enough information for a reasoned guess.
> P.S. sent a pm


I don't have that info either. And I may be way off base and just indulging in wishful thinking. Have to face the fact that he may be deliriously happy with the money-grubbing, loose-moraled, sneaky.....person (still can't do it, Wazza!).

Thanks, will look for it now.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I now have four-legged rats to replace the two-legged one. It never rains but it pours. At least the are outside, not in. The neighbors and I all feed the birds, so I guess we're asking for it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. It's hard to put poison out because of the dog and the other wildlife.

I knew I'd mess up the financial stuff sooner or later. I was late by three days paying my credit card bill. Now I will have to pay interest. Will they just tack that on the next bill? I know won't be much, but it scares me. I am so financially ignorant. Trying to learn, but my math phobia doesn't help.

The dishwasher finally got emptied today, Day 3 of Mum's latest Campaign to Instill Responsibility. I had to ban my son from doing it as I was bound and determined that my daughter would do it. As I predicted, we had to run out of dishes, but she finally did it. The consequence? She had to load the mountain of dirty ones piled up on the counter. Judging by the look on her face, I think she got the message.

I am actually proud of myself for not caving or losing my temper.

Its draining having to worry about everything myself.....the rats, the kids, paying bills to name only a few. I have so much respect for single parents.

Gosh, guess I am one now.

Don't like it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I now have four-legged rats to replace the two-legged one. It never rains but it pours. At least the are outside, not in. The neighbors and I all feed the birds, so I guess we're asking for it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. It's hard to put poison out because of the dog and the other wildlife.
> 
> I knew I'd mess up the financial stuff sooner or later. I was late by three days paying my credit card bill. Now I will have to pay interest. Will they just tack that on the next bill? I know won't be much, but it scares me. I am so financially ignorant. Trying to learn, but my math phobia doesn't help.
> 
> ...


Poison the rats, just place the baits carefully.

Credit card, round here they just add the interest on to the next bill. Might be different in Canada. Also around here credit card interest rates are very high. Not cheap credit.

Congratulations on winning the battle of the dishwasher. 

Still waiting for you to learn to swear!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Poison the rats, just place the baits carefully.
> 
> Credit card, round here they just add the interest on to the next bill. Might be different in Canada. Also around here credit card interest rates are very high. Not cheap credit.
> 
> ...


Not gonna happen. 

I guess you are right about the rats. They are getting quite bold. One came up on the deck right next to my chair and I don't even want to think about them getting in the house.

Credit is high here too, that's why it upsets me that I made such a mistake. Next time the bill gets paid as soon as it comes in the house.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I keep looking at my finger. The one my wedding ring used to be on. After 32 years, there is still an imprint. It hurts to look at it. I still reach for my ring to twiddle when I am nervous and then I get a wave of grief when its not there.

I had intended to keep on wearing it as we are still married and I was hopeful. But after I found out about the OW, I went the next day and had it cut off (knuckles have increased in size over the years). I bawled as the jeweller did it. When he went to remove it, it broke into two pieces, cleaving the words R had had engraved inside, 'together forever'. How's that for irony? The poor jeweller felt bad and offered to fix it, but I sobbed, "Its okay. I don't need it anymore."

But its still there in the form of the imprint. Much as it hurts to look at, I don't want it to fade. Then it will be gone. Everything will be gone.

And here come the tears again.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

My BIL just called. His wife lost their baby. She is in critical care with a pacemaker in case her heart fails and is on dialysis in an induced-coma. He is a basket case. I am so sad for them. It was a little boy. Life can be so cruel.

My BIL hasn't called R to tell him yet. He told me that R hasn't told his mother that he left me. My BIL told her. She is now pretending, when talking to R, that she doesn't know. What a family!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I think I have figured out why my H hasn't been over to work on the house. Could it be he's waiting until my daughter and I go back to school and our son has moved? That way he doesn't have to face any of us.

He said in an email, 'I will contact you soon with a work schedule'. That was two weeks ago. Haven't heard anything since except an brief answer to my brief question about helping our son. Haven't seen him in almost two months.

I was going to follow the suggestion someone here gave me and offer to be out of the house when he comes, but I think I will wait and see if he suddenly appears when the coast is clear. 

If my thinking is right, it could be him avoiding what he feels may be unpleasant or it could be OW manipulating him to keep him away from me. Or it could be a combination of both.

I have also decided to stop referring to her as 'your girlfriend' anytime I do mention her to him. I will call it like it is. She is the OW.

I'm going to IC this afternoon. I'm still confused as to what step to take now. Leave things as they are? Legal separation? Divorce? Hopefully, The IC'er can help me get my head on straight.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I think I have figured out why my H hasn't been over to work on the house. Could it be he's waiting until my daughter and I go back to school and our son has moved? That way he doesn't have to face any of us.
> 
> He said in an email, 'I will contact you soon with a work schedule'. That was two weeks ago. Haven't heard anything since except an brief answer to my brief question about helping our son. Haven't seen him in almost two months.
> 
> ...


Hope the ic goes well.


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm so sorry to hear about your SIL and the baby. The world is a cruel place.

I'm pretty sure it was said before, but I can imagine that your husband feels tremendous guilt about the whole situation. I could see how that guilt could be paralyzing. I'm sure it is one of the factors preventing him from coming over and facing you and the kids.

If you still want him to do these things, what if you pointed out that guilt and then told him that he can at least make things better by putting forth effort. With the children, house, and wife.

Communication is essential, and when all else fails, why not just be blunt and up front?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks, Wazza. 

Un, that's a good suggestion, but, knowing my H, I think he would get defensive and things would not go well. I 'm really curious too to see if he does start coming around when school starts. 

I want to acknowledge the baby's death. He is not close to his brother, but I feel I need to say something. I think just a brief email saying that I was sorry to hear about it and that I pray his SIL will be all right will be the way to go. (So sad. They wanted this baby so much and, because of health problems, she can never get pregnant again.)


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I think it would be impossible for him to take a few words of sympathy the wrong way.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I think it would be impossible for him to take a few words of sympathy the wrong way.


I wasn't worried about that, Un, but I do seem to have put my foot in it. I thought, from what he said, that my BIL was going to call R when he got off the phone with me Sunday night. He didn't. So when I emailed R this morning, expressing sympathy, it was the first he heard of it. I feel like I've stepped in, albeit inadvertently, where I shouldn't have. Just emailed R to apologize. He's going to call his brother.

I have no idea why his brother would call me first. We're not close.

I've just come back from the hospital here. My Mum fell and was taken in by ambulance. One x-ray, a CAT scan and four hours later, they decided she is okay. Thanks Heavens!

IC went well yesterday. MC'er thinks OW is 'weird'. Of course, that's based on my description of events, specifically the email fiasco. As I said, she could be a perfectly wonderful person. He said he didn't think so! 

We talked about my need for approval. He said that, in light of circumstances, its natural, but he doesn't know me enough to know that its the story of my life. Fodder for future sessions.

We aslo talked about what I should do now (leave things as they are, push for legal separation or go for divorce). He suggested I email R, keep it very brief and ask where we are headed. If I do this, I'll give it a few days because of the baby.

He thought my doctor's idea of the agenda was brilliant. Its working, by the way. I highly recommend it to anyone feeling overwhelmed by things.

As I was leaving, the counsellor touched me on the shoulder as a gesture of comfort and it almost made me cry (I held off 'till I got in the car). My H never did things like that.

One last thing, as I was leaving the hospital, I had an idea. I'm going to call their volunteer department tomorrow and see if I can be a volunteer. I wouldn't want to work in the gift shop, but with patients. I did it when I was younger and loved it. I was on the surgical ward and so many patients, especially the elderly, were so lonely and scared. Imagine going for major surgery with no family to support you. Anyway, deciding this gave me a huge lift. It will get me out doing something worthwhile. And who knows, maybe I'll meet a handsome, single doctor!


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

You have a wonderful positive attitude Frostflower. Your idea to volunteer is awesome! :smthumbup:

Try not to over think sending out that e-mail. There was no way for you to know, and you were just doing what any decent person would do.

I'm glad IC went well. Sounds like you need to keep doing what you're doing. Seems to be working well for you!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> You have a wonderful positive attitude Frostflower. Your idea to volunteer is awesome! :smthumbup:/QUOTE]
> 
> That's why I keep coming here. People say the nicest things!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Not a good afternoon. Had an argument with my daughter to begin with. Lately, anytime one of the kids looks at me sideways, it starts the tears. Not in front of them. I manage to hold it till I get where they can't see. Today I made it to the garage and I more or less pulled it together when I heard her coming, but had a hard time fighting tears in the car with her. We were going to the mall to pick up some stuff for school. At least she had the grace to be pretty subdued on the trip. 

At the mall, it seemed everywhere I looked, there were reminders that I am alone. Couples walking hand-in-hand, teenagers kissing, the lingere department which blared, 'You have no-one to wear these for', the flower shop which reminded me that he will never buy me flowers again, the jewelry store which made me wonder if he has bought her any jewelry. I burst into tears in a cubicle in the ladies' room for Heaven's sake. Then there were the love songs on the car radio on the way home....

This does not make me want to go out again. How the heck long does this last??


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm so sorry you had such a terrible afternoon, Frostflower. I've been where you are. We weren't married as long, but all of those things were painful for me, too. You sound like a wonderful woman, and hopefully your pain will start to subside soon. It does get better. You're dealing with a lot of stress from all sides, not just with your H. I hope your kids have a 'come to Jesus' moment and stop giving you such a hard time. They're old enough to be offering you support right now. 

((hugs)) to you, sweetie!!


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## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Not a good afternoon. Had an argument with my daughter to begin with. Lately, anytime one of the kids looks at me sideways, it starts the tears. Not in front of them. I manage to hold it till I get where they can't see. Today I made it to the garage and I more or less pulled it together when I heard her coming, but had a hard time fighting tears in the car with her. We were going to the mall to pick up some stuff for school. At least she had the grace to be pretty subdued on the trip.
> 
> At the mall, it seemed everywhere I looked, there were reminders that I am alone. Couples walking hand-in-hand, teenagers kissing, the lingere department which blared, 'You have no-one to wear these for', the flower shop which reminded me that he will never buy me flowers again, the jewelry store which made me wonder if he has bought her any jewelry. I burst into tears in a cubicle in the ladies' room for Heaven's sake. Then there were the love songs on the car radio on the way home....
> 
> This does not make me want to go out again. How the heck long does this last??


Its been 9 weeks for me and i can't shake the emptiness that I feel. I don't have an answer for how long it takes but for me it has been a roller coaster of good day bad day.

Hang in there. You are a good person and good things are bound to come your way. Just be strong until they do.


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## goingthroughpain (Aug 16, 2012)

You sound, from what I've read so far, like your doing just fine. Even though I'm in the midst of it as well, I feel like it can't last forever. Keep being strong, you'll make it through.

Still, it's terrible how normal life was and how abnormal it becomes. The perception change is remarkable. Suddenly, everything that seemed so mundane has such deep meaning, like your trip to the mall. For me, it's T.V. commercials: too many happy people.

Positive thoughts. You'll be happy again, in time, and even stronger than you were before. Go volunteer and meet that handsome doctor! And don't worry about crying in the ladies room. For me, that would be trouble, but I think just about every woman I've known has shed a few tears in a stall.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thank you so much for your kind words, Angel, Locke and GTP. They warmed my heart.

I'm staring out wrong this morning. I'd emailed R about our son's phone. He answered the question. That's it. No 'how are you?'. Nothing. It hurts so much.

I'm doing the 180. I just ask whatever I need to and it hasn't been very often. It's like he's doing the 180 too. He used to ask about me and the kids. Not any more. He seems so detached.

I'm tired of crying. I need to pull myself together. I go back to work next week and I can't go like this.


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Work might be a good thing Frostflower. It will keep you occupied, and might keep your mind off of what bothers you. I'm sorry you're feeling down. Hang in there.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Then I went into online banking to see where I stood . My cc said I owed 2x as I thought. There was no record of the last payment I made. So, naturally, I fell apart. Cried, told myself I can't do this, berated myself for my inability to handle finances and worried about how I was going to manage the bill. When I calmed down a bit, I called the help line. Cried the whole time I was on hold. Finally, this lovely man explained to me that it can take up to 7 business days for the payment to show up on the account. I've never been so relieved!. If the guy had been standing in front of me, I'm sure I would have kissed him!

Felling better, I went to my hair appointment. Between the cc guy on the phone and my hairdresser, things must have gone downhill again, because when she asked me how I was , I started crying. I've known her for years, as our sons went to school together, so she knew the story. Plus she has been divorced herself (is there anyone out there who hasn't?!) She gave me a hug, some Kleenex and the best haircut ever. I hadn't planned it, but I let her put some highlights in. I look like a new, younger person!!

R may be coming later to drop and old phone off for my son. Hope he comes to the door instead of sticking it in the car, which is his usual avoidance routine. 

Maybe I'll lock the car doors!


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Dont you love the avoidance strategies? My stbxw and R should get together.

Who wants to be with someone who can't face themselves?



Frostflower said:


> Then I went into online banking to see where I stood . My cc said I owed 2x as I thought. There was no record of the last payment I made. So, naturally, I fell apart. Cried, told myself I can't do this, berated myself for my inability to handle finances and worried about how I was going to manage the bill. When I calmed down a bit, I called the help line. Cried the whole time I was on hold. Finally, this lovely man explained to me that it can take up to 7 business days for the payment to show up on the account. I've never been so relieved!. If the guy had been standing in front of me, I'm sure I would have kissed him!
> 
> Felling better, I went to my hair appointment. Between the cc guy on the phone and my hairdresser, things must have gone downhill again, because when she asked me how I was , I started crying. I've known her for years, as our sons went to school together, so she knew the story. Plus she has been divorced herself (is there anyone out there who hasn't?!) She gave me a hug, some Kleenex and the best haircut ever. I hadn't planned it, but I let her put some highlights in. I look like a new, younger person!!
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

spun said:


> Dont you love the avoidance strategies? My stbxw and R should get together.
> 
> Who wants to be with someone who can't face themselves?
> 
> ...


Now there's an idea. Shall I pack him in a crate and ship him to you? Better yet, how about we each pack up our own, put them on planes and pay the pilots to jettison them over the same spot? Death Valley work for you? 

Hey, think about it. Meeting each other in that toasty spot will help acclimatize them for where they will end up in their next existence!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Just told some of his co-workers! 

R had arranged to get an old cell phone from his boss for our son, the one going to another province to look for a job. His phone is kaput and he needs one so that perspective employers can contact him. R emailed me that he had this one he could try getting a new SIM card for. I had told him we needed it today. Heard nothing back. Emailed him. Nothing. Texted him asking if he got the email. Got an email: the phone is on my desk. You can pick it up or I can get it tomorrow. (Saturday? He doesn't work weekends.) 

I said I'd pick it up.

I guess he is working out of the office today as when I got there, his co-workers I first saw said they didn't know where he was. They seemed to think I was looking for him, so I said, "You know R and I aren't together."

Shocked silence.

"He's with someone else," I threw in (thinking of Conrad prodding me).

They were absolutely gobsmackd (as one of them put it).

I got lots of hugs and sympathy. His name was taken in vain. Was told to 'go after everything'.

They asked how the kids were taking it and I mentioned that he hadn't contacted them. More shocked silence followed by name-taking-in-vain. 

Told them I haven't seen him in two months.

When I got in my car to leave, the tears started. I've known these people for years. I won't see them again.

Anyway, driving home, I alternated between feeling good and feeling vindictive.

They likely won't say anything to R, but I know that they know!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> I guess he is working out of the office today as when I got there, his co-workers I first saw said they didn't know where he was. They seemed to think I was looking for him, so I said, "You know R and I aren't together."
> 
> Shocked silence.
> 
> "He's with someone else," I threw in (thinking of Conrad prodding me).


YES!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> YES!


You know how you form mental images of what people you haven't met look like? My image of you is a giant fist with index finger pointing. Am I close? 

One co-worker was wondering where R would have met the OW. She remarked that he never went out to lunch with anyone (only two women there and she is one of them). She concluded it must have been online, which is what I tend to think. OW is a SAHM in a community about 45 minutes from here. No-one comes to our community unless they are visiting someone. Its on a peninsula. You don't just pass through.

Meeting her online means he went looking and that hurts me more.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> You know how you form mental images of what people you haven't met look like? My image of you is a giant fist with index finger pointing. Am I close?
> 
> One co-worker was wondering where R would have met the OW. She remarked that he never went out to lunch with anyone (only two women there and she is one of them). She concluded it must have been online, which is what I tend to think. OW is a SAHM in a community about 45 minutes from here. No-one comes to our community unless they are visiting someone. Its on a peninsula. You don't just pass through.
> 
> *Meeting her online means he went looking and that hurts me more*.


Not necessarily so.

He could have met her through a discussion board for a common interest, an interactive game, or whatever, and then feelings just grew over time as with any relationship.

Do you know how long he knew her? Do you know what sort of things he used to do online?


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

It sounds like your experience in your husband's office put a smile on your face for at least a little bit. Good for you! The fact that no one in his office knew means that he is ashamed of himself. That should make you feel good too.

I agree with Wazaa, there are too many variables to determine how those two met. Try not to let that unknown eat at you.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Not necessarily so.
> 
> He could have met her through a discussion board for a common interest, an interactive game, or whatever, and then feelings just grew over time as with any relationship.
> 
> Do you know how long he knew her? Do you know what sort of things he used to do online?





Unwind80 said:


> It sounds like your experience in your husband's office put a smile on your face for at least a little bit. Good for you! The fact that no one in his office knew means that he is ashamed of himself. That should make you feel good too.Q
> 
> I agree with Wazaa, there are too many variables to determine how those two met. Try not to let that unknown eat at you.


He has no interests! That sounds harsh, but sadly it s just about true. As far as I know, all he did online was research things that we needed or planned to buy one day. He definitely didn't play games, has never been interested in them. I have no idea what interest group would have attracted him.

Okay, this is embarrassing. He usually used his work laptop. He had an account or whatever you call it on mine, but only used it if he didn't have the one from work. I 'm not proud of this, but about a month after he left, I went into his account on my laptop. It was easy to figure out the password. In the history, there were only two sites that he had visited. He may have been to more and erased them from history, but then why leave these two? They were pornography sites dedicated to spanking. I felt sick and deleted them.

Guess he had to use my computer for this as the work one won't access stuff like that.

So, I have no idea where he came across this woman and, no, I don't have any idea how long it had been going on. He liked to watch hockey. I don't, so I would go and watch t.v or read elsewhere. Usually, I took the laptop with me. 

Your guess is as good as mine.

I'm trying not to let it bother me, Un, but heck.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

It's 2:00 in the morning and I can't sleep ....again. It's the same every night. I put off going to bed. When I finally do, I cry. Then I can't sleep. I've been taking a pill the last few nights, but tonight it's not helping. Just took two Tylenol to try and knock myself out. I can't keep this up. Usually I just feel sad, but tonight I've alternated between sadness and anger. Not a lot of anger, but it made me wonder why I haven't really been angry. A bit here and there, but not as much as you'd think. Shouldn't I be furious with him, her....everything?

Gosh, I'm tired. Not physically. Emotionally. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to bring sleep.

Probably the lack of sleep makes the emotions worse. I was shopping today and I just wanted to sit on the floor in the middle of the store and cry. 

Sometimes I wish I could go back in time and be my daughter's age again. In spite of all the accompanying teenage angst, it was a time of dreams. Dreams of a future filled with love. Dreams of happy-ever-after. My best friend and I would read the initials of our future husbands written in the veins in our hands. We'd talk about the children we'd have and what their names would be. 

Dreams and hope.

Gone now.

Oh crumb, I need some sleep.

Funny, the vein initials on my hands.....they were accurate. I only realized that tonight. Spooky. 'Course it doesn't look like he'll be my happy-ever-after. 

My best friend of my teen dream days is divorced. 

We start out with so much hope.

I'm babbling.

I've really got to get some sleep!


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

In some ways, Frost, it's good that you're starting to feel the anger. You'll go through stages very similar to the stages of grief when someone dies. Anger is one of those, too. Let the anger come, but let it be productive rather than vengeful. If you need to get things figured out financially, let that anger spur you on to learning how to do things he used to do, for example. It can be a blessing, because the sadness stage leaves one just numb and immobile, but life goes on and there are things you need to do. 

The anger is justified. Use it as a tool to help you.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frost,

The reason the CWI forum members recommend those things in sequence is to help people heal.

Gather evidence - confront - expose etc.

There's a logical order to them and it does help process the emotions involved with being betrayed.

Of course you're going to get angry. Look what happened.

Think of it this way. Can you think of a more passive forum presence than sadwithouthim? Here's a fine lady - mom of a hockey player - just bereft because she cannot figure out why her husband would just turn his back on their history.

She was - literally - stuck for more than a year.

In an instant, she discovers posOW, exposes the affair, and punches posOW in the FACE.

And, guess who is feeling oh so much better now?

She has answers and resolution.

You're still on that path.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks, Angel and Conrad. I know anger is a natural outcome of this. I thought I would feel more of it. Maybe I'm just moving quite slowly through the phases.

Thanks for the advice, Angel. I will channel it into getting things done.

Conrad, I am not a violent person, but punching the OW in the face sound good to me! I wish he hadn't been able to keep the affair under wraps till he left. I was gypped out of any chance to fight her. And it's too late now.

No surprise I'm exhausted today. slept right through the radio alarm which plays for an hour and a half. I have a low-grade headache too. Tonight I am going to bed earlier and am going to knock myself out before lying awake for hours instead of after. I need to get back in control. 

Hmmm, actually I don't think I ever was in control. I think he was.


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

You're in control now lady! Make good things happen!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> You're in control now lady! Make good things happen!


Like what?


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

When do you start volunteering at the hospital? You'll never meet McDreamy doctor if you don't.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> When do you start volunteering at the hospital? You'll never meet McDreamy doctor if you don't.


Dang your good memory! I was hoping no-one would ask. The last few days I have been so busy with my son that I kept forgetting to call. I will right now put it on my agenda for Monday.

McDreamy doctor?! You make him sound like an entree at the Golden Arches! Do I get fries with him?


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

lol, that was a Grey's Anatomy reference. I thought that was common knowledge among women ages 15 through 85.

I like that volunteer idea so much, I might need to stop making excuses for not doing it myself. Your positive attitude is making good things happen by making me a better person, see?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Thanks, Angel and Conrad.* I know anger is a natural outcome of this. I thought I would feel more of it. *Maybe I'm just moving quite slowly through the phases.
> 
> Thanks for the advice, Angel. I will channel it into getting things done.
> 
> ...


My earlier attempts to get you to swear were half humour and half therapeutic. At some point I expect you will feel both anger and sadness to a degree you have never felt before, and you are probably going to need to do things you have never done before to release it. For me it was the only time in my life I was so angry I had to physically destroy something to let it out.

It's scary, and not where you want to be, but suppressing it would be worse.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> lol, that was a Grey's Anatomy reference. I thought that was common knowledge among women ages 15 through 85.
> 
> I like that volunteer idea so much, I might need to stop making excuses for not doing it myself. Your positive attitude is making good things happen by making me a better person, see?


Now I HAVE to do it. Can't have your decrepitness blamed on me!

I don't watch Gray's Anatomy. So much for your stereotype. Guess I'll have to work on that part of your personality too!


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Frost,

One thing you can do (perhaps you already doing it) that would help a lot is exercise. It's the #1 thing that has kept me sane.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> My earlier attempts to get you to swear were half humour and half therapeutic. At some point I expect you will feel both anger and sadness to a degree you have never felt before, and you are probably going to need to do things you have never done before to release it. For me it was the only time in my life I was so angry I had to physically destroy something to let it out.
> 
> It's scary, and not where you want to be, but suppressing it would be worse.


Well, I'll let you in on a little secret, but don't tell anyone else on the forum. It will ruin my image.

I do call R and OW not-nice names in my head. And occasionally they have slipped out when I've been alone. I'm not an angel. But good luck getting me to swear here! Not gonna happen, Pal!

All kidding aside, I do get your meaning and I'm sure you're right. I know the dangers of bottling things up, and I have no intention of going there. Let's just hope that if and when I do blow, it won't be in a way that you will read about in the paper.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> Frost,
> 
> One thing you can do (perhaps you already doing it) that would help a lot is exercise. It's the #1 thing that has kept me sane.


How's half an hour running on the treadmill every morning, followed by a half-hour walk outside? you're right. It does help a lot. Maybe that's why I haven't been as angry as I think I should be. I'd like to add some swimming in, but haven't yet got up the courage to go to the pool by myself.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

i am not overly focused on how R met the OW, but I am curious about this. What about those pornography sites? Is it possible to meet people there?


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> i am not overly focused on how R met the OW, but I am curious about this. What about those pornography sites? Is it possible to meet people there?


Uh yeah! I've met women from a number of different dating site niches. Trust me honey, no good will come from meeting women on porn dating sites, or any where you get to see the good up front. She may be pretty, she may be more sexual, but that's not what you want for a relationship. If he met her on one of those sites, I give it less than a year before his tires screech outside a strip club and he's throwing her back on the pole she's one of those wacky wall walkers.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> Uh yeah! I've met women from a number of different dating site niches. Trust me honey, no good will come from meeting women on porn dating sites, or any where you get to see the good up front. She may be pretty, she may be more sexual, but that's not what you want for a relationship. If he met her on one of those sites, I give it less than a year before his tires screech outside a strip club and he's throwing her back on the pole she's one of those wacky wall walkers.


She's actually a SAHM who runs a daycare. I don't think she actually works at anything like that. Someone asked what my H did on the computer and I know he'd been to a couple of sites. But, from the brief look I had, I thought they were actors. I just wondered if socializing also occurred.

Hey, what are you doing on sites like that?? 
Don't answer that!


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Back in the day... trollin for booty. 

I'm still a member of a couple since I never deleted my accounts. No matter how many times I say I'm not interested I still get messages I can't see without paying. I don't even want to see those messages because the majority were just creepy and cryptic. Girls would ask me about my penis size in the first pm or quote poetry only found in HS english classes, or if I ever considered having three ways with strangers. Red flag, RED FLAG! But there it's like, if I've already seen naked pictures I don't want that. Why see the show if the ending has been spoiled?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I was so angry yesterday I almost sent a nasty email to R, which had I would have me looking like a fool. 

We have a hot tub which we spent $700 on in repairs earlier this summer (we split the cost). It doesn't get used much, but would be part of the house sale, so it needs to work. it still needs new jets as the old ones fly out with the stream of water, but that expense will have to wait. As I said, it doesn't get much use, but it does require weekly maintenance. Yesterday I realized that I hadn't taken care of it for a few weeks. Luckily the water was clear. After I added the chemicals, I turned the pump on to circulate them through. It came on, but I couldn't get it to go beyond low. Being the calm, intelligent person that I am, I immediately plunged into a black hole. Another darned thing that doesn't work and that I have to deal with and shell out money for. I'm tired of the house and all it's upkeep and headaches. I started out crying, then moved into anger. Where is he? He's not doing a darned thing that he said he would do around here. I ended up fuming and composing a nasty email, complete with bad language, in my head. Would have actually written it too, (Wazza would have been proud!), but other things happened and I never got to it.

Later, I returned to the hot tub and gave it one last angry try. It worked. The control panel was what cost us earlier in the summer. It was replaced and the new one is different. I had pushed every button on it several times but it turns out you had to follow a sequence which I happened upon this time.

So, had I written that email, I would have looked like a helpless, useless female. Sometimes things do work out.

However, the incident pointed something out to me. I fall apart so easily. No matter what the problem, big or small, it seems overwhelming and I collapse. I go into the 'I can't do this' state (that's actually what I kept wailing down in the depths of the black hole). I get that this is probably normal at this point in my life. My marriage has fallen apart. I'm fragile. But this is part of my makeup. I don't handle the stresses caused by life's bumps well. And, because I know this, I live in anxiety. I always expect the worse. Something arrives in the mail from the insurance company or the credit card company or the bank, I freeze. I know it is a tsunami in an envelope and when I open it, the deluge will further ruin my life. 

And now, there is no-one to reassure me and help me through it.

I often make the situation worse by putting off opening the envelope or dealing with what I need to deal with. Procrstination is never helpful. I know tHat, but the anxiety around dealing with whatever it is is, is overwhelming.

And now there is no-one to reassure me and help me through it.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Oh my God, I think I'm having a panic attack. I can't control my breathing. I can't sop crying. I just got an email from R:


'Are you available this afternoon for a visit? I'd like to see you, (our daughter) and (our son) before he leaves even if it's just for a short while. I was thinking of being there about 3:15 if that works or tomorrow morning if that's better. *You asked how I was in one of your texts so I thought I'd come and tell you.'
*

I haven't seen him in two months. Is he going to tell me he wants a D? is he going to tellme how happy he is? 

I can't handle this.

My son wants to be on the 7:00 ferry tomorrow morning., so if he comes it has to be today. 

I've only once broken down and asked how he is. All my (few) emails have been about the house or our son. He never answered my question about how he is. 

Why did he say he wants to answer it now? 

I just want everything to go away.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I want to tell him, please not today. Don't tell me today. 

I just can't handle it. I'm already a basket case because my son is leaving and I am so worried about him.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

We're in your corner here. Let us know if we can support you in any way.

I'll check in periodically over the next few hours in case you need to vent or whatever. Good luck!


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Oh my God, I think I'm having a panic attack. I can't control my breathing. I can't sop crying. I just got an email from R:
> 
> 
> 'Are you available this afternoon for a visit? I'd like to see you, (our daughter) and (our son) before he leaves even if it's just for a short while. I was thinking of being there about 3:15 if that works or tomorrow morning if that's better. *You asked how I was in one of your texts so I thought I'd come and tell you.'
> ...


Frost, whatever he is don't you want know so that you can move forward in one direction or the other?


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Frost,

I think the sooner you know the better. But I know you are anxious. Hope it goes well.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thank you. I know I need to know. But I am in such bad shape right now I don't know if I can handle this. I don't want to break down in front of him. 

My son won't give me an answer. If just said, tell him whatever you want. He said that his father has had four months to see him. I tried to explain that he just doesn't know how to approach him, but the fact that he wants to see him before he goes shows that he loves him. He replied 'whatever'.

I have to go into town and do some running around with my son who has left everything to the last minute. I will have to answer R before we leave. 

You have no idea how much I appreciate your support. Thank you.

Here goes.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Oh my gosh, Frost, I can just feel how anxious you are. But you know what? You are strong! You have been handling things -- the day to day life of you and your kids. He hasn't been around to do anything, but life hasn't come to a crashing halt. You're getting stronger every day -- take pride in that!! The worst thing he could possibly tell you will still be something you can live through and after that, move forward and be happy again. Please remember that. Sending cyber-hugs your way!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Checking in to remind you we are thinking of you. Hugs from all of us.


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## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

I think we are as anxious to know as you are Frost.

I hope it goes well. You are a good person regardless of how today turns out. If he is negative just kill him with positivity. If he is humbled and sorry... well I guess the ball is in your court on that one.

Either way your words of kindness and support are much appreciated so i want to return the favor. Good luck! Saying a prayer for you.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thank you all again from the bottom of my heart. I don't think I could have made it though the last few hours without knowing you were all there for me.

Sorry it has taken so long for this update. it hasn't happened yet. After setting it up for this afternoon, my son was trying to fit his grandparents in for a goodbye too and they could only come at the same time R was planning to. Not a good plan as my Dad is disgusted with him. I arranged with R that he come early tomorrow morning. My son is now aiming for a later ferry, so R is coming at 7:30.

I am calmer, but this afternoon was awful. I had to run errands with my son, Mr. Leave-Everything-To-The-Last-Minute and I was shaking the whole time. Angel, your post somehow arrived on my phone while I was standing in line in Walmart. I read it with tears in my eyes, but they were tears of gratitude.

R sent me a text saying , I am looking forward to seeing (our son's name) and you'. What the heck does that mean??? 

Thinking about everything, I realizethat there are three possibilities. He can tell me he wants a D. He can tell me he's made a mistake and wants to R. He can tell me he's fine, thank you for asking. I realized that part of me was hoping for the second, but I can't allow myself to entertain that. Otherwise I will be crushed when no. 1 or 2 happens. So I am expecting the worse. I will try to remain calm and hold my head high whatever happens.

Hopefully, I will be able to get some sleep tonight

In the midst of all the anxiety there actually was comedy. When I thought he was coming this afternoon, I tried desperately to make myself look presentable in spite of the red, puffy eyes. I had put fake nails on a few days ago to cover the ones I have bitten to the quick and give them a chance to grow. I've never used them before, but desperate times.... Anyway, six of them had fallen off. Here's a lesson, Ladies, never attempt to put on fake nails when you are a basket case. I ended up with a finger on my left hand glued to my right hand. Both hands are still covered in patches of glue and I have a gaping wound where, in my crazed state, I ripped my finger off my hand. 

I can't believe that, In my still highly stressed state, I find that funny!

I'll let you know what happens as soon as I can. I am seeing my doctor later in the morning. A lucky coincidence. I'm sure I'll need him.

Wish it were all over however it's going to unfold.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Thank you all again from the bottom of my heart. I don't think I could have made it though the last few hours without knowing you were all there for me.
> 
> Sorry it has taken so long for this update. it hasn't happened yet. After setting it up for this afternoon, my son was trying to fit his grandparents in for a goodbye too and they could only come at the same time R was planning to. Not a good plan as my Dad is disgusted with him. I arranged with R that he come early tomorrow morning. My son is now aiming for a later ferry, so R is coming at 7:30.
> 
> ...


We'll be thinking of you. Whatever happens is for the best.

If you can, I suggest you give some thought to your wishes in the event of either divorce or reconciliation, so you have it clear in your head what you want. Both are hard work.

More hugs. And practice those swear words just in case.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks, Wazza.

I have rehearsed what I want in terms of R pretty much ever since he left. I know the conditions I want in place before that can happen. Its the D request that I don't know how I will react to. That's the scenario I am afraid I will fall to pieces in. I know you are right. I need to figure out how I will respond. I will think about it and come up with a plan. Its sticking to the plan that I fear will be the problem.


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

FrostFlower, I apologize for being wrapped up in myself today.

I think you have the right idea, hope for the best, but plan for the worst. No matter what happens, you will be a stronger person tomorrow.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> FrostFlower, I apologize for being wrapped up in myself today.
> 
> I think you have the right idea, hope for the best, but plan for the worst. No matter what happens, you will be a stronger person tomorrow.


UN, you have absolutely no reason to apologize. You have had a much worse time time today than I have. Thank you for caring about me when you are going through so much. I wish I could take away your pain.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Thinking of you Frost. Hope you are ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Just checking in, Frost. I hope you got some good rest last night.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

He's on his way. I'm so nervous. I'll post as soon as I can.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hugs Frost. Deep breaths. Cool, calm, detached. You can do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Hang in there FrostFlower! Remember, just like a spider, its more scared of you than you are of it!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wow! I am dazed! 

I left my son and R alone to talk. It seemed to go well. I don't think they even broached any feeling stuff, but they had a nice goodbye. R gave him some cash and left some for our daughter to spend at the upcoming fall fair. (She was at work.) My son had been out all night with his friends, so he went off to bed (so much for an early start.) R drifted around, looking at things that need to be done in the house. Remembering that I shouldn't follow him around, I went and sat on the deck with a crossword. 

After a while, he came and sat with me. He talked about the house. I told him that, with our son leaving and me going back to work fulltime, I couldn't keep up with it. I feel trapped in it. He is going to start coming to work at it.

I asked him where we are going. He said we will sell it. I said I don't mean the house. He said he has a separation agreement filled out. So I asked him if he wanted a D. He said he guessed the agreement is the first step. I said, that that did not answer my question. He responded, "i don't know'.

Then, like a button had been pushed, he started talking about how things are not going well with OW. He said he may have to find somewhere else to live. I just sat, didn't say a thing. My husband, the non-communicator, opened up. She is depressed and suicidal (has actually tried with an overdose). She is getting no support from her ex who isn't working. Her mom died a year ago. Her father provided the house which she can't afford to live in, but won't give her the mortgage so that she can move to a smaller place. She has three kids, I thought two were out on their own, but they are only 13, 11 and 9. 

R was very subdued. I said, "I know this will sound harsh and maybe a bit self-serving, but at some point you need to decide if this is your problem" He said, "I know".

He is asking the doctor to sign him off on stress leave. I suggested he find someone to talk to.

I asked, if he leaves her, what would it mean for us. He doesn't know. I asked if he still felt something for me . He said yes, but he doesn't know what will happen, whether we could get back together. I said it would only happen if there were no OW, her or anyone else. I will not be sloppy seconds. He said, "I know."

This is the most communication I think we've ever had, and it was around another woman. 

As he was leaving, he looked so rough, I asked if it would be okay if I gave him a him. He said, "of course." So we had a quick hug. I said he could come and talk if he wanted to, and off he went.

Oh yes, I did ask how they met. At the flipping hardware store. You can't even let your husband go to the hardware store for crying out loud!!!

Gotta run to my doctor's appointment. But I knew you were all waiting to hear. I am in a way better mood than I was yesterday at this time!


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Wow! I am dazed!
> 
> I left my son and R alone to talk. It seemed to go well. I don't think they even broached any feeling stuff, but they had a nice goodbye. R gave him some cash and left some for our daughter to spend at the upcoming fall fair. (She was at work.) My son had been out all night with his friends, so he went off to bed (so much for an early start.) R drifted around, looking at things that need to be done in the house. Remembering that I shouldn't follow him around, I went and sat on the deck with a crossword.
> 
> ...


Great job keeping it together, Frost! Give yourself a pat on the back!

Now back to reality. I hope you don't feel good that he did not give you a straight answer about D or not.

You know he gave you nothing but crumbs, right?


----------



## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

FF,

Glad you seem to be doing better after the talk. I hope you see his answer for what it is and don't think he's considering R. I hate when they do this. They don't have the guts to give a definitive answer and keep you in the loop. Plus, even if he wanted R, would you take him back? Looks like posOW is no trophy.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

You sound like you did a great job!! I think it was awfully nervy of him to pour all of that out to you about OW's troubles. What about what you've gone through with no husband around?! 

I agree with Spun and Script. He is just throwing crumbs, and just wanted someone to feel sorry for him. 

Keep looking out for you, sweetie!!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> I asked, if he leaves her, what would it mean for us. He doesn't know. I asked if he still felt something for me . He said yes, but he doesn't know what will happen, whether we could get back together. I said it would only happen if there were no OW, her or anyone else. I will not be sloppy seconds. He said, "I know."


This is the only knit I would pick.

Do you know why?


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> This is the only knit I would pick.
> 
> Do you know why?


Uhhh, because it made me look needy?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Uhhh, because it made me look needy?


If you want to remain "Plan B", those are the right questions to ask.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> If you want to remain "Plan B", those are the right questions to ask.


"But," she said defensively. "I just wanted to know if he had any feelings for me. If not, I would move on."


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> "But," she said defensively. "I just wanted to know if he had any feelings for me. If not, I would move on."


The perfect opportunity for him give you some of those crumbs, don't you think?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> "But," she said defensively. "I just wanted to know if he had any feelings for me. If not, I would move on."


Strength is moving on with or without him.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Strength is moving on with or without him.


Well yes but.....can't I know if its with or without?

By the way, I'm not sure I was being tossed crumbs. He only answered what I asked according to what he knows/feels right now. I didn't get the idea that he was deliberately feeding the duck.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Well yes but.....can't I know if its with or without?
> 
> By the way, I'm not sure I was being tossed crumbs. He only answered what I asked according to what he knows/feels right now. I didn't get the idea that he was deliberately feeding the duck.


Not if you ask him.

That reassures him that you aren't.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Hi FF, there are no guarantees but I think you did the right thing.

TAM is very big on forcing the issue with cheating spouses through drawing a line, 180, going dark, etc. It's all about forcing a decision, and one of the assumptions is that if they decide to leave you, that's what was always going to happen. Sometimes I think that is exactly the right strategy, but not always. In my case I waited the wife's affair out, she realised she was wrong and came back to me, and we rebuilt.

When I post about this the most common reply I get is "How could you stand to just let the affair continue?" and the answer is the same as your answer would be....I could not stop my spouse. I could walk or wait. I waited. I fought every way I could, but I waited. Had I forced the decision either the marriage or the affair would have ended and I don't know what. Right now R has left you. If you forced the decision I can't see how that would make him come back.

In my case the spouse had a good head on her shoulders, came out of the temporary insanity and straightened out.

There are many aspects of yours and my stories that are different. For one my wife never actually left me. But I think R had a moment of crisis, and made a decision that he may possibly now regret, but doesn't know what to do. I don't assume R necessarily has been studying up on the cheater's manual and figuring out strategies to keep you on the hook. I know some people do that, but you will have to decide whether R is one of those people.

Whether you guys end up divorced or reconciled, by my standards you had a very positive meeting. Not saying it will end well, but I think it was a positive step and you did good.

Big hugs.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Hi FF, there are no guarantees but I think you did the right thing.
> 
> TAM is very big on forcing the issue with cheating spouses through drawing a line, 180, going dark, etc. It's all about forcing a decision, and one of the assumptions is that if they decide to leave you, that's what was always going to happen. Sometimes I think that is exactly the right strategy, but not always. In my case I waited the wife's affair out, she realised she was wrong and came back to me, and we rebuilt.
> 
> ...


This was very well said, and I agree 100%

I honestly can't get behind the idea of ever reconciling with a cheating spouse, but I haven't ever been in that position, and maybe I would see things differently if I had. For someone who is looking to get back together, it seems to me that you did wonderful. I'm glad you were strong FF, and you walked away feeling this was a step in the right direction.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Not if you ask him.
> 
> That reassures him that you aren't.


Sigh! This relationship stuff is so complicated. 'Course I'm functioning on three hours sleep, so making a cup of tea right now seems complicated.

One thing, I have my answer ('I don't know' is okay with me right now) and I won't ask again. I told him any further discussion about us would have to wait until OW is out of the picture. He agreed.




Wazza said:


> Hi FF, there are no guarantees but I think you did the right thing.
> 
> TAM is very big on forcing the issue with cheating spouses through drawing a line, 180, going dark, etc. It's all about forcing a decision, and one of the assumptions is that if they decide to leave you, that's what was always going to happen. Sometimes I think that is exactly the right strategy, but not always. In my case I waited the wife's affair out, she realised she was wrong and came back to me, and we rebuilt.
> 
> ...


Luckily for me, R is not a reader, so its very unlikely he is into the cheater's manual!

I agree, he made a choice in crisis. He definitely looked today like a man who doesn't know what to do. 

One interesting thing he said after he told me he has a separation agreement filled in, was that whether we looked at it now or in three months, it didn't matter. I think he wants time to figure out what to do. 

I asked him if he was afraid that his leaving would cause OW to try suicide again. He said yes. I asked if, if he decided to leave, he could call her father and express his concerns. He said yes. Hopefully, that will give him some comfort (not the right word, but that's all I can think of) if he decides to leave.

On a side note, I think I was right when I said that it looked like his money was an important factor for her. She is not doing well financially.

Wazza, how did you fight for your wife?



Unwind80 said:


> This was very well said, and I agree 100%
> 
> I honestly can't get behind the idea of ever reconciling with a cheating spouse, but I haven't ever been in that position, and maybe I would see things differently if I had. For someone who is looking to get back together, it seems to me that you did wonderful. I'm glad you were strong FF, and you walked away feeling this was a step in the right direction.


UN, I don't know how I feel and I told him that. Would I actually take him back if it came to it? I don't know. Never been in this position before. I need to work through a lot of things. 

Right now, my heart is much lighter, but I think its because I know that: 

a) things are not rosy between them (which may make me a nasty person, but I don't care)

b) there may still be a chance if I decide I want it. I was afraid he had no feelings left for me.

And, for today, a lighter heart is enough. I am trying not to get my hopes up that we will R. But it is good to know there may be a possibility if I want it..

When I saw our family doctor, I told him what had happened and that I was worried about R. I asked him to help him (moot request as of course he will). In a corner of my light heart lurks a big black worry for R.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> a) things are not rosy between them (which may make me a nasty person, but I don't care)


This makes you human, congratulations! There was never any doubt in my mind 


Frostflower said:


> In a corner of my light heart lurks a big black worry for R.


Confirmation that you are NOT a nasty person.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> This makes you human, congratulations! There was never any doubt in my mind
> 
> Confirmation that you are NOT a nasty person.


I like you, UN!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

"I don't know" is the most common answer a wayward spouse gives a loyal spouse when he's considering his options.

Plan A - posOW

Plan B - Frostflower

That may "look" ok, because she is "posOW" after all.

But, being "Plan B" rarely results in a return of the disloyal spouse.

Reassuring him that you are "Plan B" gives him the comfort and security to seek "posOW#2"

After all, Frostflower is "still" Plan B.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> "I don't know" is the most common answer a wayward spouse gives a loyal spouse when he's considering his options.
> 
> Plan A - posOW
> 
> ...


Frostflower did tell him that if stayed with her, or went with any other woman, it was over between us. 

He made a huge mistake while under a lot of stress. I think I can forgive him. but I don't know if I can take him back. I do know that one mistake is one thing. But I will NOT be disrespected again.

What I will have to make sure is, should I take him back (and its all hypothetical right now), that I do it for the right reasons. Not because I am lonely, miss the comfort of life with him or feel sorry for him. It must be because I love him and have forgiven him, and want to spend the rest of my life with him. And on his part, he must love me and want to spend the rest of his life with me.

And a whole lot of work would have to be done before we get to that, if we ever do.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Frostflower did tell him that if stayed with her, or went with any other woman, it was over between us.
> 
> He made a huge mistake while under a lot of stress. I think I can forgive him. but I don't know if I can take him back. I do know that one mistake is one thing. But I will NOT be disrespected again.
> 
> ...


He's not listening to what you say.

He is watching what you are doing.

And, you are waiting... and asking.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> He's not listening to what you say.
> 
> He is watching what you are doing.
> 
> And, you are waiting... and asking.


I only told him the first sentence. The rest is my thinking.

Oh, I did tell him that by leaving things the way they are, it looks as if I am okay with the affair and I am not. 

I think I need to see what he is going to do in the near future. If he leaves OW, we can talk about where to go from there, whether there can be a future for us. If he stays with her, we move to D. 

So, yes, I am waiting. And no, I'm not asking anything else. Its in his court now. Once he moves or doesn't move from her, it shifts into my court.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> I only told him the first sentence. The rest is my thinking.
> 
> Oh, I did tell him that by leaving things the way they are, it looks as if I am okay with the affair and I am not.
> 
> ...


As long as you are at peace with it, I won't badger you.

Stay strong.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I think part of what Conrad is saying, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that you are making yourself too available for him. That fact that you are available and he is still cheating makes you Plan B.

One way or another, he needs to know that you will be carrying on without him. Right now, all he sees is that you are still waiting for him. You are too available. That way he puts you in his back pocket for use in case of emergency.

So... get out there, live your life. Forget about him. You already know that he is regretting his decision. Make him chase YOU! With what you told us this morning, this is a real possibility for you.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> As long as you are at peace with it, I won't badger you.
> 
> Stay strong.


Don't worry, the new, slightly improved me won 't let you badger me. :awink:

Just so you're still around if the peace fails.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I think part of what Conrad is saying, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that you are making yourself too available for him. That fact that you are available and he is still cheating makes you Plan B.
> 
> One way or another, he needs to know that you will be carrying on without him. Right now, all he sees is that you are still waiting for him. You are too available. That way he puts you in his back pocket for use in case of emergency.
> 
> So... get out there, live your life. Forget about him. You already know that he is regretting his decision. Make him chase YOU! With what you told us this morning, this is a real possibility for you.


So, what I think you are saying is that I shouldn't have asked about 'us' and whether he had any feelings for me. I can see that. 

Rookie mistake.

Now, my doctor suggested that we could work on some things in the house together and that might help build the relationship. What are your thoughts on that, Un and Conrad?


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Like unwind says, make him chase you. If nothing else working on the house together is a chance to show him the new you. Get working. Follow the advice here and stand your ground.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> Like unwind says, make him chase you. If nothing else working on the house together is a chance to show him the new you. Get working. Follow the advice here and stand your ground.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Makes sense, UN. It will be hard to know where to draw the lines.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Wazza, how did you fight for your wife?


Pathetically by TAM standards  Also not really in a way that directly applies to what you are doing but let me summarise in case it gives you ideas.

At first I thought it was a one off kissing session and I confronted her about it. She blew smoke.

I realised it was continuing and kept confronting her. She kept lying, and I kept digging out further facts and confronting her. The whole trickle truth thing.

I confronted her every time I knew she was going to see the other man. She denied when she could and she still went anyway. I phoned her there asking her to come home. I was told I was being violent and controlling (and for the record there is no hint of violence in anything I did - it was fog). I could not go to where she was to chase her as I had young children I was minding and she had the car.

I proposed counselling. That uncorked the whole "everything wrong with the marriage was my fault" thing, plus the justification that the OM made her feel sexually like I never had, and she was doing our marriage a favour by seeing him since some of that lust and passion might rub off. At the same time I was finding out from others I talked to that she was being very critical of me behind my back, and there had been discussions of leaving me for the OM. (He was a kid living at home with his parents for goodnedss sake. How stupid do people get when they go into affairs??)

At this point I concluded things were toast. Made the decision that I needed to stay in the marriage for the kids with no f*cking idea how to make that work, just the belief it was the right thing to do. Didn't mean my love for her was gone but she clearly hated me. (By the way ,see how I slipped that f word in there? It helps when you are writing such painful stuff!!)

I told her parents at that point and asked hem to support her. I still kept pushing. Eventually she started to come around to the same idea of making it work for the kids. Both of us very hurt and bitter.

Healing and rebuilding was a whole other story...with luck we may need to discuss that one day!)


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Pathetically by TAM standards  Also not really in a way that directly applies to what you are doing but let me summarise in case it gives you ideas,.
> 
> At first I thought it was a one off kissing session and I confronted her about it. She blew smoke.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Wazza. I didn't mean to pry. Just wondered how you were able to win her back.

It's starting to smack of the games we played as teenagers. Should I chase the hunk in my algebra class or should I play it cool and let him chase me? I'm too old for all this flippin' angst. (See how I slipped that f word in there? You're right, I feel better!!)

I hope we do get to discuss healing and rebuilding one day, but I am trying not to get my hopes too high. The fall hurts.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Thank you, Wazza. I didn't mean to pry. Just wondered how you were able to win her back.
> 
> It's starting to smack of the games we played as teenagers. Should I chase the hunk in my algebra class or should I play it cool and let him chase me? I'm too old for all this flippin' angst. (See how I slipped that f word in there? You're right, I feel better!!)
> 
> I hope we do get to discuss healing and rebuilding one day, but I am trying not to get my hopes too high. The fall hurts.


You weren't prying. I think most of all of what I just wrote is already out there in other posts, though probably not all in one place anywhere else.

Yes, a lot I read on TAM reminds me of teenagers, and I'm over it too. Either my wife appreciates what we have and commits to it, or we end this thing. She knows what I've got, and by the age we are she better have learned something about controlling her urges. I'm not interested in trying to be more alpha, playing psychological games, and all that. 

You and R are older, as are my wife and I. As couples we have a lot of history. You know him and he knows you. One can understand, and seek to forgive, a single tragic mistake at a time of great personal weakness. It's quite another thing to accept that you have to carry on like 15 year olds and live in fear for the rest of your life. If that's what it takes, do you want it? If you were to play these sorts of shallow tricks, and they were to win R back, what confidence would you really have in the depth of his reconciliation?

(And let me assure you, even a genuine reconcile is not devoid of pain and fear.)

I guess the one thing I did that helped me survive was to detach. Believing she hated me, I had to learn to persist anyway. Maybe that was a bit like a 180. I don't think so, I was not dispassionate. Sometimes I just couldn't walk into the house after work. Other times I would walk in, see her, and just have to turn around and leave. I recall it and I still choke up a bit.

To wife's credit, once she recommitted to the marriage, she persisted in the face of a lot of detached coldness from me, when a lesser woman might have left. So we both played our part in things.

OK...it's late, you got me in a reflective mood and I am rambling. Time to stop.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I don't know FrostFlower, I think I am in over my head trying to answer your question.

This all does seem a little high schoolish now that you mention it.

I'm not good at this, and I just don't know what to say about the housework. I suppose the work needs to get done, and if you need help, you may as well make the best of it.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I don't know FrostFlower, I think I am in over my head trying to answer your question.
> 
> This all does seem a little high schoolish now that you mention it.
> 
> I'm not good at this, and I just don't know what to say about the housework. I suppose the work needs to get done, and if you need help, you may as well make the best of it.


I didn't mean high schoolish in a necessarily negative sense. It just reminded me of it. 

Of course, it is much more serious than it ever was in high school. And, for some of us, high school was a long time ago. Plus, I wasn't very successful at it then.

As for the possibility of the 180 attracting R, when we first met, I wanted nothing to do with him. But he kept coming around. Maybe there is something to it. 

It's just hard to do when, as Wazza said, we have so much history together.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I didn't mean high schoolish in a necessarily negative sense. It just reminded me of it.
> 
> Of course, it is much more serious than it ever was in high school. And, for some of us, high school was a long time ago. Plus, I wasn't very successful at it then.
> 
> ...


Well I think the high school thing is negative to the extent that it is immature. We should have a deeper approach from our one or two additional years of life experience.

R knows you. You have a connection with each other that you have with no one else. If you divorce, and the divorce is amicable, you may still have a really close friendship, because of all that history. I've seen that more than once.

Alternately, if he wanted to come back I would have said the first step was some sort of counselling to understand why he left and how to avoid a repeat performance.

I guess the 180 might give him a jolt. But which way will it push him? I do think it's useful for you to take control of your life. Certainly let him know that, while you are open to discussing reconciliation, he shouldn't take it for granted that you will attempt it.

FF, the side I see of you on this board is a very beautiful person. I've paid you various compliments on this thread, and they have all been sincere. R saw something in you too. Yes he left but before that he stayed for a long time, and the conversation you just had with him isn't a conversation with someone who hates you. I could never have talked with my wife like that in the bad times.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> So, what I think you are saying is that I shouldn't have asked about 'us' and whether he had any feelings for me. I can see that.
> 
> Rookie mistake.
> 
> Now, my doctor suggested that we could work on some things in the house together and that might help build the relationship. What are your thoughts on that, Un and Conrad?


If he invites you to work with him - AND you are not busy - go ahead.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

How are you doing Frost ?

Thinking of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Well I think the high school thing is negative to the extent that it is immature. We should have a deeper approach from our one or two additional years of life experience.
> 
> R knows you. You have a connection with each other that you have with no one else. If you divorce, and the divorce is amicable, you may still have a really close friendship, because of all that history. I've seen that more than once.
> 
> ...


You are very sweet, Wazza. 

MC would absolutely have to be part of any attempt at R. I don't want him to take for granted that I am willing to R, I'm just not sure how to get that across without pushing him away. I know him enough to know that, if he thinks I have moved on, he will not broach the subject, not because he wouldn't want to, but because he would think I wasn't interested in him anymore.



Conrad said:


> If he invites you to work with him - AND you are not busy - go ahead.


Got it!



spun said:


> How are you doing Frost ?
> 
> Thinking of you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, Spun. I'm doing okay today. I think part of my better mood has to do with thinking that I might get some power back in this relationship. When R left, I had no say, no power. After our conversation yesterday, I think that there MAY be a chance he would be interested in R, depending on what happens with OW. If it happens, I will have a say. That may not make any sense, but to regain some power in the relationship, whether we do R or not, would be a good feeling. I hated feeling so powerless when he left.

But, either way, I know I will be okay.

As an aside, I was feeling I was in TAM withdrawal all day! I had to work and could not keep up with everyone. How am I ever going to manage when school starts next week?!


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Hi FrostFlower, I hope work is keeping your mind busy and happy!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Hi FrostFlower, I hope work is keeping your mind busy and happy!


Well, its keeping it busy anyway!

The empty nest syndrome is settling in. Now that my son is gone, its just me and my daughter. When I went out to the car this morning, and his car wasn't there, it was such a funny, empty feeling.

He texted me and let me know he arrived safely. Now he just has to find a job and a place to live, and avoid the unsavoury elements.


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm glad your son made it safely. Maybe its time for some quality mother-daughter time?

I hope no news is good news with you.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I'm glad your son made it safely. Maybe its time for some quality mother-daughter time?
> 
> I hope no news is good news with you.


Thanks for thinking of me, Un.

My daughter, the social butterfly is hard to pin down. Between work, school next week, her friends and her boyfriend, I won't be seeing much of her. But I will definitely try. 

My son has a job interview lined up for Tuesday. Fingers and toes crossed!

As for me, no news was good news 'till yesterday evening and into the night. I had set myself up for a fall. R had said he would be over this weekend to work on the house. Well, the weekend was half over, and not a word. I didn't want to nag as I know he is stressed. But, as time went on, I felt lower and lower. I just wanted to see him.

By suppertime, I was convinced that, in spite of the stresses around her, he had chosen to remain with OW and the hope ignited by his visit was crushed. I ended up depressed and crying until about midnight. If it hadn't been for Up and his poker game, I would have been a worse mess than I was. (thanks, Up  you cheered me up .)

Anyway, all of a sudden, I got an email from R. He never sends emails that late. It was about something I had asked him in July. I gave a short response. A little later, he emailed again to respond to a brief update I had sent that morning about our son. It was a lengthy email from him. He filled me in on his brother's wife who is still in a coma and doesn't know she lost the baby. R remarked that the news was a big shock to him. This is not like R. He never expresses things like that.

He said that our doctor wants him to take areal vacation, so he is going to take a week later this month and use up some air miles. I think he'll likely go back East to see his family.

He talked about a couple of other things and said he would let me know if he could come over and work today.

Then he said it was late and he needed to get some rest.

I emailed back, didn't answer any of the questions he asked, just said (Conrad, don't read this. It will get your blood pressure up):
Sleep tight.

So, while I feel better today, I still don't know wherei he is in terms of OW.

I do, however, have a clear idea of what people mean when they say it's like a roller coaster ride.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frost, I'm sorry that R is still feeding you crumbs. He seems so lost.

Hold strong. Don't cave into him. 

He needs to show you real signs of love if he wants to try to win back your heart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Hang in there Frosty.

You're a lot stronger than most of us.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> I emailed back, didn't answer any of the questions he asked, just said (Conrad, don't read this. It will get your blood pressure up):
> Sleep tight.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Thanks for thinking of me, Un.
> 
> My daughter, the social butterfly is hard to pin down. Between work, school next week, her friends and her boyfriend, I won't be seeing much of her. But I will definitely try.
> 
> ...


It is indeed a roller coaster. Hang in there.


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm hating the roller coaster too. I'm having a little easier time just assuming that she is going to file. I am preparing for the worst. It is impossible though to completely remove the hope of reconciliation from my mind. I feel for you.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I'm hating the roller coaster too. I'm having a little easier time just assuming that she is going to file. I am preparing for the worst. It is impossible though to completely remove the hope of reconciliation from my mind. I feel for you.


The hope is what prevents healing.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


>


I must be dense. What is that?


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Stack of 2x4's


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

spun said:


> Frost, I'm sorry that R is still feeding you crumbs. He seems so lost.
> 
> Hold strong. Don't cave into him.
> 
> ...


Lost is a good word. I don't think the crumbs are an intentional ploy by any means. But, don't worry, there'll be no caving.



UpnOver said:


> Hang in there Frosty.
> 
> You're a lot stronger than most of us.


Up, I don't feel strong. My heart was really hurting last night. I'm glad you were there. You took my mind off it for a few minutes.



Wazza said:


> It is indeed a roller coaster. Hang in there.


I have never liked roller coasters. Never been on one. Now I know why.



Unwind80 said:


> I'm hating the roller coaster too. I'm having a little easier time just assuming that she is going to file. I am preparing for the worst. It is impossible though to completely remove the hope of reconciliation from my mind. I feel for you.


I guess the not knowing isn't helping. But, try as I do to expect the worst, like you, that bit of hope lingers.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> Stack of 2x4's


Thanks, Angel. Right after i posted, the picture popped up. Before that it was just a wee icon of some sort.

So, I've been hit by the 2x4's. Well. at least I'm in good company!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

spun said:


> The hope is what prevents healing.


Maybe I'm not ready for healing.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Maybe I'm not ready for healing.


But you know you need to heal, even if you get the chance to work things out with R.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

spun said:


> But you know you need to heal, even if you get the chance to work things out with R.


But healing through reconciliation vs through divorce would be different paths.?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

spun said:


> But you know you need to heal, even if you get the chance to work things out with R.


I know. And I am working on it, really. Its just hard sometimes. i go forward, then something happens, and back I go. I'm definitely not enjoying the ride.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> But healing through reconciliation vs through divorce would be different paths.?


I want to choose the path and it scares me that I won't get to.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I know. And I am working on it, really. Its just hard sometimes. i go forward, then something happens, and back I go. I'm definitely not enjoying the ride.


The slip ups are going to happen. Just don't immerse yourself in HIS confusion.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I want to choose the path and it scares me that I won't get to.


You can't make him give you that choice. And you have to think about how long you will wait.

At the moment he has made his choice and you have only one option. That may or may not change.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

spun said:


> The slip ups are going to happen. Just don't immerse yourself in HIS confusion.


No, I won't. I know all I can do about his confusion is pray for him and support him if he turns to me. By support, I mean listen if he choses to talk, not invite him home.



Wazza said:


> You can't make him give you that choice. And you have to think about how long you will wait.
> 
> At the moment he has made his choice and you have only one option. That may or may not change.


I've been thinking about how long I should wait. I guess there is no hard and fast rule. Maybe it will just feel right when its time.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I've been thinking about how long I should wait. I guess there is no hard and fast rule. Maybe it will just feel right when its time.


You have to do what feels right for you and it has to be within you. So yes, I think it will just feel right when the time comes.

He's an enigma. I don't think he is playing games, but he seems awfully confused. Is he reaching out to you from guilt? An attempt to rebuild with his children? Wanting to come back? Wanting to stay with OW but be friends? How do you tell?

If you start to move towards divorce, and he comes back, you do then have the option to change back to a direction of reconciliation. But I can't see how nursing that hope forever helps.

It sucks. Whichever way you go, whatever decisions you can or cannot control, it hurts, and it sucks.

We're all thinking of you. Doesn't take the pain away, but hopefully helps a bit.


----------



## goingthroughpain (Aug 16, 2012)

> I know. And I am working on it, really. Its just hard sometimes. i go forward, then something happens, and back I go. I'm definitely not enjoying the ride.


Yay for the rollercoaster metaphor! It is hard Frost, I know, I've been up and down for several weeks now. I think the worst part is you're bloody well blindfolded for the whole trip. A rollercoaster through the dark.



> Maybe I'm not ready for healing.


Healing will take time.

I think you _may_ be able to hope and heal at the same time. I know I'm young in the ways of being separated and waiting for divorce (in addition to being young in general), but as long as you don't pin your future on him, you can move on. I have faint hopes at R, but the pragmatic me (as well as my entire circle of family and friends) tells me to be ready to move on. So it's a kind of separated hope that exists, but doesn't influence me too much. Kind of like hoping to win the lottery, but you still only buy a $2 ticket every month or so.

I know we're in completely different circumstances, but as long as you keep doing what you're doing and wait for the right moment (which is probably just when you and circumstances reach a mutually agreeable readiness), you'll come out alright. 

As Wazza, Unwind, et. al have already said, we're here hoping for the best for you.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> You have to do what feels right for you and it has to be within you. So yes, I think it will just feel right when the time comes.
> 
> He's an enigma. I don't think he is playing games, but he seems awfully confused. Is he reaching out to you from guilt? An attempt to rebuild with his children? Wanting to come back? Wanting to stay with OW but be friends? How do you tell?
> 
> ...


I think he is awfully confused. He left here stressed for what I'm sure he thought was a calmer, more peaceful set of circumstances. He now finds himself in a stressful situation. I don't think he know which way is up. For him to ask for stress leave from work says it all. He's the 'soldier on' type. 

I don't think its guilt driving him to re-connect with me. He could have done that without opening up about the mess he's gotten himself into. Maybe he was feeling me out. I don't know. I think he needed to talk, whether he realized it consciously or not. And I do think he wants to rebuild something with his kids.

Does he want to stay with OW? I like to think if he did, he wouldn't have said that he probably needed to find somewhere else to live. if you care about someone, you would stay. He stayed with me when I was depressed. 

I wish I knew if he is still with her. Its a beautiful long weekend here and I keep wondering if he is doing something with her and her kids. Then, at night.......well, I won't even go there. God, it hurt.

I know I can't hope for ever. At the end of October, it will be six months (it hurts to write that). I have been thinking that that will be the time I will make a decision re. D. 

It does help to know you are all thinking of me. I'm so grateful that I found this forum. Thank you all.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I think he is awfully confused. He left here stressed for what I'm sure he thought was a calmer, more peaceful set of circumstances. He now finds himself in a stressful situation. I don't think he know which way is up. For him to ask for stress leave from work says it all. He's the 'soldier on' type.
> 
> I don't think its guilt driving him to re-connect with me. He could have done that without opening up about the mess he's gotten himself into. Maybe he was feeling me out. I don't know. I think he needed to talk, whether he realized it consciously or not. And I do think he wants to rebuild something with his kids.
> 
> ...


Hold to that drop-dead date, Frost.

Then, file yourself.

He doesn't think you'll ever do it.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is the reality check he needs to jolt himself out the fog he is in.

You can't just keep letting him eat his cake.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

spun said:


> Hold to that drop-dead date, Frost.
> 
> Then, file yourself.
> 
> ...


I know. And that gives me two months to get my head straight. Because I don't know what I want either.

If he goes to visit his family, I know that will be a week away from her. Not that being with his family is conducive to getting your head straight, but it will be space from her. Maybe he can figure some things out.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

spun said:


> Hold to that drop-dead date, Frost.
> 
> Then, file yourself.
> 
> ...


This may be good advice. The normal wisdom here is to do the 180, and I don't always buy that. My marriage, for one, may have broken over that. 

But you can always say to him "This is a line in the sand. If at any stage you want to explore a future together we can talk, but no promises and for now I am moving on."

If he wanted to come back, I would also caution against allowing him back in too far too fast. The relationship you had is gone...in some ways that may even be good, but anything new you built would be different.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Then, at night.......well, I won't even go there. God, it hurt.


Steel yourself. That bit will always hurt. Every now and then it still hits me like it was yesterday.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> This may be good advice. The normal wisdom here is to do the 180, and I don't always buy that. My marriage, for one, may have broken over that.
> 
> But you can always say to him "This is a line in the sand. If at any stage you want to explore a future together we can talk, but no promises and for now I am moving on."
> 
> If he wanted to come back, I would also caution against allowing him back in too far too fast. The relationship you had is gone...in some ways that may even be good, but anything new you built would be different.


I don't even want back what we had. I want better, stronger. No if, ands or buts!

I like the way you put that....the line in the sand, etc.



Wazza said:


> Steel yourself. That bit will always hurt. Every now and then it still hits me like it was yesterday.


I don't know what to say about that. I just want it all to not have happened.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I don't know what to say about that. I just want it all to not have happened.


I know, but what you said is exactly the right way to look at it. You want it not to have happened. Provided you understand that is what you want, and that you can't have that because the past is what it is, then you are positioned to deal with it.

For me, accepting it could never be undone was a very important part of the healing process, though far from easy

It truly sucks.

By the way, I noticed the small profanity in your earlier posts. We are making progress grasshopper.


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## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

OK so i have an idea since we are all riding the same rollercoaster.

What's the best way to enjoy the downward rush, you know the scary drop after you just crested the top?

With our hands in the air screaming!

Wooooooo!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I know, but what you said is exactly the right way to look at it. You want it not to have happened. Provided you understand that is what you want, and that you can't have that because the past is what it is, then you are positioned to deal with it.
> 
> For me, accepting it could never be undone was a very important part of the healing process, though far from easy
> 
> ...


WHAT?!! I did no such thing!

Okay, that's what I want, but I can't have it, so deal with it. Seems like a hard thing to deal with. If it comes to that, I will need pointers.

I did not profain. You have confused me with someone ellse, Master Po!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

LockeCPM4 said:


> OK so i have an idea since we are all riding the same rollercoaster.
> 
> What's the best way to enjoy the downward rush, you know the scary drop after you just crested the top?
> 
> ...


Screaming is right!


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Screaming is right!


Nooooo! Make it stop!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

R sent me an email saying he may be over tomorrow. The doctor doesn't think he needs stress leave at this point, but will follow him closely. He does want him to get away. R is thinking of using up some air miles to go somewhere South for a week, which is a much better idea than visiting his family. He may actually get to relax. Although he didn't say anything to make me think it, I am so afraid he will take OW.

More stress. My oldest had said that he would sign a lease for his brother (the one who has just gone to look for a job) because he has no references and no job yet. Tonight, he said that he doesn't want to as #2 son has a history of not being responsible. I may have to go and do it myself, which would have been easy a couple of weeks ago, but school starts on Tuesday. 

I want to go South and relax!!!


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm liking your desire to relax, not everything before that. Sorry, Frost, a last minute trip to help #2 son is the last thing you need.


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Maybe suggest to R that he could fly out to help #2 with the lease? It helps you, it helps #2, and R needs some time away... It might even help their relationship which could have a positive effect on the relationship with you and R. All I see is win, win, win :smthumbup:

Now back to reality where R just says 'no'.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> I'm liking your desire to relax, not everything before that. Sorry, Frost, a last minute trip to help #2 son is the last thing you need.





Unwind80 said:


> Maybe suggest to R that he could fly out to help #2 with the lease? It helps you, it helps #2, and R needs some time away... It might even help their relationship which could have a positive effect on the relationship with you and R. All I see is win, win, win :smthumbup:
> 
> Now back to reality where R just says 'no'.


You're both right. Logistically it would be a nightmare. I would have to be there on a weekday to sign a lease. I could use up a discretionary day from work and fly out on a Thursday night and be back for Monday if I had to. But I have to get my wrists injected (carpal tunnel) which means two days off as the Doctor will only do one at a time. This is a horrible time of the school year to be taking any time off. It never rains.....

So, on the topic of R's holiday in the South, I woke up thinking, South, beach, women in skimpy bikinis, R alone and confused.....aaarrrrgh! 

Somebody slap me!


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## goingthroughpain (Aug 16, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> but school starts on Tuesday.


At least classes will be a nice distraction. No time to be thinking of R when you're thinking of your students. 

And plus, supportive co-workers to vent to?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

goingthroughpain said:


> At least classes will be a nice distraction. No time to be thinking of R when you're thinking of your students.
> 
> And plus, supportive co-workers to vent to?


Yes and yes.

Funny, my Mum remarked yesterday about school starting and I responded, I guess, in a less than enthusiastic way. My son (the older one is here on his time off), picked up on it and wanted to know why I sounded like I didn't want to go back. 

Any teaching job is challenging. My particular job is considered the most challenging teaching position the District has. Few people want it. Its very rewarding, but very stressful and I put in long hours after school. This year I am going from four days per week, which gave me a sanity day, to full-time. I need the extra money and to get my pension up. This means I'm taking on another role for that day, with a whole new caseload on top of the one I already have which is brutal. So, much as I love my job and I love my students, I am in some ways dreading it. I was in the other day, and my mailbox was already full of stuff I have to deal with. Maybe I'm getting too old for this.

Whine, whine. At least I have a job. And I do love it, which makes me very lucky.

The staff is very supportive. We are a family. And my mind will be busy. The worse part of my day last year after R left was the drive home. Knowing he wouldn't be there, I cried the whole way. Every day.

So, if I'm not dancing and singing on my last day of 'freedom', that's why.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I hate him. I hate him,mI hate him He is going on a trip with her for he birthday. How could he be so cruel to tell me that It hurst all over agin. I don't want to do this anymore


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

It hurts so much.

i answered his email with:

You are going on a trip with the other woman and you had to tell me. How could you be so cruel?


I have just written another email, but I haven't sent it yet. Please tell me what you think. I am not thinking clearly.

I_ sat here and listened to you tell me how badly things were going for you. I actually felt bad for you. Obviously things are going just fine. I never wanted to know her name. Now I have that in my head. Thank you very much. 

All this time, I have been giving you the benefit of understanding how stressed you were when you left. I've been understanding about you committing adultery for Heaven's sake. I thought, under all that, you were a good person, just overwhelmed. I hoped and prayed that somewhere inside you still loved me. What an idiot I am!

I thought you were going away by yourself to get your head straight.

Right now i have feelings in my heart that I never thought I could feel towards another person. I hope they fade, because I don't want to be a person who can feel this.

When you get back from your little holiday (maybe if we had done that once in a while we wouldn't be where we are), you can sit down with me and a mediator.

I am through.

_

I am so glad I have all of you to talk to.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I am so sorry, Frost. I totally understand. I just found out that my STBXH is meeting his posOW in France, and that's where they will be to celebrate our divorce when it comes through. He's taken her on two romantic getaways in the last couple of months, and in all of our married years, we never went on one. Now he just schedules them when I'm babysitting our son for him.

I'm so sorry. This will help you to make your decision of what to do, but that doesn't help the hurt to go away. I, too, gave STBXH the benefit of the doubt for his actions, blaming depression, stress, his childhood, etc. The truth is, they just are not good men. I wish I could give you a hug right now, I truly feel your pain, Frost.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> I am so sorry, Frost. I totally understand. I just found out that my STBXH is meeting his posOW in France, and that's where they will be to celebrate our divorce when it comes through. He's taken her on two romantic getaways in the last couple of months, and in all of our married years, we never went on one. Now he just schedules them when I'm babysitting our son for him.
> 
> I'm so sorry. This will help you to make your decision of what to do, but that doesn't help the hurt to go away. I, too, gave STBXH the benefit of the doubt for his actions, blaming depression, stress, his childhood, etc. The truth is, they just are not good men. I wish I could give you a hug right now, I truly feel your pain, Frost.


Thank you so much, Angel. I didn't think anything could hurt as much as it did when I first found out about her. But,oh, it does.

I sent the second email. I don't feel any better, but I need him to know some of what I am feeling (not that he cares). Oh I was so wrong about him. What was he doing the other day? Using me as a sounding board to figure out whether to stay with her? 

Into thee hurt, I can feel some of the 'hell hath no fury...' creeping. He may be in for a rough ride. Although it bothers me that I can feel this way.

I am so sorry about your STBXH. What is wrong with these men?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Damn.

I think it was a good note and you should follow through. I don't know how it will play out, but you need closure, one way or another.

Is R basically a weak person? Is he just doing what she tells him? The way he left you was pretty cowardly.

(P.S. don't hate all men...some of us are ok)


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I am so sorry FrostFlower, you deserve much better. Please no more e-mails, he has heard enough. You are more likely to give him ammunition to use against you when you write in this state.

Vent to us instead. Give him silence, even though he deserves worse.

Be strong!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Damn.
> 
> I think it was a good note and you should follow through. I don't know how it will play out, but you need closure, one way or another.
> 
> ...


I don't know, Wazza. I just don't know what to think of him anymore.

I don't hate all men. But it seems all the good ones are here on TAM. 



Unwind80 said:


> I am so sorry FrostFlower, you deserve much better. Please no more e-mails, he has heard enough. You are more likely to give him ammunition to use against you when you write in this state.
> 
> Vent to us instead. Give him silence, even though he deserves worse.
> 
> Be strong!


Thanks, Un. I won't write anymore. I'm drained right now anyway.

Its ironic. I was so relieved when he didn't ask for a D last week. Now I will be the one telling him I want one. 

I wish that whole conversation hadn't happened. It got my hopes up.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Oh, another item in his email...he can't come and work on the house today as there is 'too much to do where I am living now'. Like I care! 

I will be informing him (not right now) that he better get his act in gear and get THIS house done, or I will hire someone and send him the bill. Wait a minute. I'm thinking as I type. Then I have to pay half of it. I just can't win. Anyway, he can get the stuff done or we sell it as is. I want out of here.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Frost -- how much do you think you can do on the house? Is there stuff like painting and things like that, or is it all stuff like wiring, etc.? Beware that he doesn't charge you for what he does and take a bigger share of the equity. Put in whatever labor you can. sorry to assume the worst, but if there have previously been any verbal agreements on how the house equity is going to be split, get it in writing even before the D. You don't want to have him come over and do extra just so he can get more money out of the house. You need starting over money. This is the situation we have, and I've made darned sure that I kept doing painting and stuff so that he doesn't have a leg to stand on if he thought about asking for a bigger share of the equity. In my case, STBXH lives in our house, though.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> Frost -- how much do you think you can do on the house? Is there stuff like painting and things like that, or is it all stuff like wiring, etc.? Beware that he doesn't charge you for what he does and take a bigger share of the equity. Put in whatever labor you can. sorry to assume the worst, but if there have previously been any verbal agreements on how the house equity is going to be split, get it in writing even before the D. You don't want to have him come over and do extra just so he can get more money out of the house. You need starting over money. This is the situation we have, and I've made darned sure that I kept doing painting and stuff so that he doesn't have a leg to stand on if he thought about asking for a bigger share of the equity. In my case, STBXH lives in our house, though.


Darn, another crying spell. I went out and tried to power wash the driveway. Cannot figure out how to make it work. Is every little thing going to cause me to break down? I was moving out of that stage.

Angel, there has never been any argument over equity in the house, although I guess all bets are off now. The lawyer I spoke to said I should ask for more than 50% because of all the years I stayed home with the kids, plus we lived in places where there were no teaching jobs when we were first married, so my salary and pension are lower because I followed him. So, I will definitely go for more than half the house.

Some of the work is painting, but stairs need replacing, baseboard needs cutting, doors need installing in the house and on the shed outside....it goes on and on. I am not the handywoman type, but I have done a few things. I am also doing all the regular maintenance, washing windows, keeping up the garden (which I have lost all interest in). The grass will need to be cut on a regular basis as we are moving in to the wet season and it will start growing again (darned grass!). I just want out so badly now.

But, you have a good point and I will keep track of what I do.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Just got this email: (Its a response to the first one I sent.):

How is that being cruel? You knew I lived with her and had a relationship with her. She hears about you all the time and doesn't get upset. I wasn't trying to be cruel, just telling you the truth. What you do want to sit down with a mediator for? If I am so cruel then why did I give you the extra $500 for September?


WHY DO I WANT TO SIT DOWN WITH A MEDIATOR???


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Sorry, I'm going on and on. My head hurts. I just need to get this all out.

He's taking her to a resort for her birthday. Do you know what I usually got for mine? A bunch of flowers, not even from a florist, from the grocery store. And maybe a family dinner some years.

Do I sound bitter?


----------



## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I don't know, Wazza. I just don't know what to think of him anymore.
> 
> I don't hate all men. But it seems all the good ones are here on TAM.
> 
> .


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Just got this email: (Its a response to the first one I sent.):
> 
> How is that being cruel? You knew I lived with her and had a relationship with her. She hears about you all the time and doesn't get upset. I wasn't trying to be cruel, just telling you the truth. What you do want to sit down with a mediator for? If I am so cruel then why did I give you the extra $500 for September?
> 
> ...


They just don't get it, Frost. They don't understand how they are being cruel b/c they are having all of their needs met and things are going well for them in their minds.....as long as they are happy, right?

I am having a rough day today. I realized that I have asked several times for all of my digital pics and music several times from STBXH. Pictures are my life. And there are pics at the old house of things that mean alot to me - my first Doberman, trips I've taken with friends, friends, family...my life. He knows this. Yet he has failed to give me them. He has given me 2 computers saying to check there. But he setup the network and server that stored all of the pictures. So is he really that forgetful...telling me to check the computers when should know that they are not on the computers? I am having a hard time believing he is that dumb to not realize this. So now I think he plays dumb to manipulate me and hurt me to the core. And has throughout the marriage. Or maybe he just really doesn't care b/c its important to me and not him...I don't know. But I do know it is cruel no matter what the reason. 

And if he is just that dumb...well...hmmmm....:scratchhead: LOL

I'm sorry your STBXH threw that in your face. I know it stings. Mine did the same crap during his first A..cruel cruel cruel...

Hang in there.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Well, it seems you have your answer, albeit not the one you wanted. 

I am still finding some of R's replies rather odd, but regardless that last email seems pretty definite. He has made his choice, and he is sticking with it. 

You are too nice to write it so I will. I think he's being an incredibly selfish b*st*rd.

If you can find it within yourself to finalise things without bitterness, I think it will serve you well in the long run. I know it will be hard. But just get through it as quickly as you can.

We are here for you FF.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> They just don't get it, Frost. They don't understand how they are being cruel b/c they are having all of their needs met and things are going well for them in their minds.....as long as they are happy, right?
> 
> I am having a rough day today. I realized that I have asked several times for all of my digital pics and music several times from STBXH. Pictures are my life. And there are pics at the old house of things that mean alot to me - my first Doberman, trips I've taken with friends, friends, family...my life. He knows this. Yet he has failed to give me them. He has given me 2 computers saying to check there. But he setup the network and server that stored all of the pictures. So is he really that forgetful...telling me to check the computers when should know that they are not on the computers? I am having a hard time believing he is that dumb to not realize this. So now I think he plays dumb to manipulate me and hurt me to the core. And has throughout the marriage. Or maybe he just really doesn't care b/c its important to me and not him...I don't know. But I do know it is cruel no matter what the reason.
> 
> ...


Can you threaten him with a lawyer if he doesn't hand over your pictures?


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Can you threaten him with a lawyer if he doesn't hand over your pictures?


Avoid lawyers like the plague if you can. Their whole business is based on escalating conflict so that you pay them to resolve it.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Well, it seems you have your answer, albeit not the one you wanted.
> 
> I am still finding some of R's replies rather odd, but regardless that last email seems pretty definite. He has made his choice, and he is sticking with it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the swear word. I won't say that it and a few others haven't passed through my mind this afternoon.

I hugged him, Wazza, I actually hugged him. When I asked if he had any feeling for me (okay, Conrad, do your worse), he said he did. Was he that confused?

You're right, it seems like he has made his choice. I just wish he had left me out of his turmoil.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Thanks for the swear word. I won't say that it and a few others haven't passed through my mind this afternoon.
> 
> I hugged him, Wazza, I actually hugged him. When I asked if he had any feeling for me (okay, Conrad, do your worse), he said he did. Was he that confused?
> 
> You're right, it seems like he has made his choice. I just wish he had left me out of his turmoil.


He's either confused or has real problems with the truth. Go back to where he denied there was someone else in your early post, then admitted it a few hours later. And is he honestly surprised at your reaction that he's being cruel in these latest emails? "She knows about you and she's not upset!" Sorry, but WTF????????????????? That's not human. No-one is that dumb. Does he really not get what he has done? Of course he does, otherwise why was he afraid to tell you? I just can't make sense of it.

Right now you need to protect yourself and get on with life.


----------



## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Can you threaten him with a lawyer if he doesn't hand over your pictures?


Its not worth it......just stir the pot so to speak....

I'm just having a hard time dealing with the fact that he may indeed just be a cruel person. Or just really really broken


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> He's either confused or has real problems with the truth. Go back to where he denied there was someone else in your early post, then admitted it a few hours later. And is he honestly surprised at your reaction that he's being cruel in these latest emails? "She knows about you and she's not upset!" Sorry, but WTF????????????????? That's not human. No-one is that dumb. Does he really not get what he has done? Of course he does, otherwise why was he afraid to tell you? I just can't make sense of it.
> 
> Right now you need to protect yourself and get on with life.


That whole 'she hears about you all the time and doesn't get upset' thing is so weird. First, what is the point in saying that and second, of course she doesn't get upset, she knows she's won. 

I know I need to protect myself and move on. But right now I can't even think how to do that. 

Maybe the first thing is to take something for this headache. The heartache is a whole other thing.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Its not worth it......just stir the pot so to speak....
> 
> I'm just having a hard time dealing with the fact that he may indeed just be a cruel person. Or just really really broken


That's two of us. I think we have enough for a club!


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Put your professional hat on for a second. Could he be ASD? That might explain the inappropriateness of some of his actions. He might genuinely not understand what he is doing to you.

But surely you would have considered that before now.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Put your professional hat on for a second. Could he be ASD? That might explain the inappropriateness of some of his actions. He might genuinely not understand what he is doing to you.
> 
> But surely you would have considered that before now.


It is all kind of Aspergerish in some ways, isn't it? But, no, I think it is due to the mentally unhealthy upbringing he had. If it were Aspergers or anything else on the scale, I'd know how to deal with it. 

This I have no idea how to handle. I truly believe his Mum is BPD. I've always thought that and I think it is the fallout. Some people honestly should not have children and she is one of them. 

His brother and sister are damaged, but I thought he was fundamentally different. So much for that undergrad degree in psychology I paid so much for.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I know I shouldn't, but I keep re-reading those emails. There is so much that doesn't make sense. One thing that struck me the first time I read it was his use of LOL. I had jokingly said that I would like to go South, but that I might not come back. He wrote about the hurricanes that had just happened and remarked that all my problems might get blown away Lol! He does not talk like that. I didn't even think he knew what LOL means. Part of me is now wondering if it was OW who wrote these emails. But another part doesn't want to get my hope up. and, even if she did, he is still going with her. The place they are going was even named. 

Another thing was that he said he would only be reachable by cell because they wouldn't be able to get email. Then two sentences later, he said they would have to pay to get email, so wouldn't check it very often. 

It was also strange that he asked why we would see a mediator. We had talked about using a mediator rather than lawyers when we talked about signing an agreement.

Maybe I am confused. Surely he would have seen my response if it was her and would have contacted me like he did that last time she did this. If it was her and she deleted the emails, she is in for a surprise. When I noticed they came from the g-mail account, which I hadn't noticed before, I sent a copy of my second email to his work address to make sure he got it. I am probably just getting my darned hope up again.

I need to stop obsessing.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I know I shouldn't, but I keep re-reading those emails. There is so much that doesn't make sense. One thing that struck me the first time I read it was his use of LOL. I had jokingly said that I would like to go South, but that I might not come back. He wrote about the hurricanes that had just happened and remarked that all my problems might get blown away Lol! He does not talk like that. I didn't even think he knew what LOL means. Part of me is now wondering if it was OW who wrote these emails. But another part doesn't want to get my hope up. and, even if she did, he is still going with her. The place they are going was even named.
> 
> Another thing was that he said he would only be reachable by cell because they wouldn't be able to get email. Then two sentences later, he said they would have to pay to get email, so wouldn't check it very often.
> 
> ...


I wondered the same thing, whether she had written those emails. I concluded probably not but reading again I don't know. Didn't want to suggest it in case it got your hopes up.

The fact remains that he hasn't turned up to work around the house like he promised.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I wondered the same thing, whether she had written those emails. I concluded probably not but reading again I don't know. Didn't want to suggest it in case it got your hopes up.
> 
> The fact remains that he hasn't turned up to work around the house like he promised.


That's true and its not the first time. That was a bit odd too. Any other time he has just said he couldn't make it. Never mentioned the othe house before.

Oh well, what difference does it make? I need to let go of him.


----------



## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Stop making yourself so available and laying down all your cards for R.

Can't you see that your actions are hurting you more than him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> That's true and its not the first time. That was a bit odd too. Any other time he has just said he couldn't make it. Never mentioned the othe house before.
> 
> Oh well, what difference does it make? I need to let go of him.


Would it help if I brought more lumber?


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## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Would it help if I brought more lumber?


Sometimes it might take more than lumber. Just drop a big ol' sequoia tree on the situation and everything will be better. 

And FF, I think letting go is the hardest part of any of this. Its harder than the pain, the sadness, the anger and the confusion. I think it is truly the last great hurdle on the road to recovery.

Hang in there.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

spun said:


> Stop making yourself so available and laying down all your cards for R.
> 
> Can't you see that your actions are hurting you more than him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know, Spun, but it seemed......he seemed......oh, I don't know.



LockeCPM4 said:


> Sometimes it might take more than lumber. Just drop a big ol' sequoia tree on the situation and everything will be better.
> 
> And FF, I think letting go is the hardest part of any of this. Its harder than the pain, the sadness, the anger and the confusion. I think it is truly the last great hurdle on the road to recovery.
> 
> Hang in there.


I can't even think about that this morning. I'm starting to cry again. School starts today and I need to be okay for a few hours. I'll either hold myself together, or they'll find me in a fetal position in the sensory under six weighted blankets. And I'm not kidding.

What am I going to do without you guys all day??? You keep me going.



Conrad said:


> Would it help if I brought more lumber?


Only if you drop the whole load on R's head.


----------



## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I know, Spun, but it seemed......he seemed......oh, I don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you have a smartphone you can post on throughout the day? That's what I do.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

HE DIDN"T WRITE THEM!!He just phoned. He didn't do it. He is leaving her. He wants to talk to me. I'm crying, but not sad tears this time. My heart is almost singing.

Gotta run. Will smart phone ya when I get a chance.


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## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

Holy wow.

Umm. Keep us posted. Don't get your hopes too high. He said he is leaving her, only time will tell if this is true or not.

I am rooting for you!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Sounds like getting hit in the head by that lumber woke him up.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Holy buckets -- I hope, hope hope that this really turns out good for Frost. Wow, reading that just hit me in the pit of my stomach.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Baby steps, Frost.

Stay at 50000 feet.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

This is good frost. I hope things can be worked out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Fingers are crossed for you, take things cautiously and slow.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> HE DIDN"T WRITE THEM!!He just phoned. He didn't do it. He is leaving her. He wants to talk to me. I'm crying, but not sad tears this time. My heart is almost singing.
> 
> Gotta run. Will smart phone ya when I get a chance.


Stay cool, but fingers crossed for you. And toes and every other bit.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thank you, everyone. I bawled all the way to school, and shook for half an hour until school-life distracted me. I had planned to be here an hour before the bell, but it ended up as 5 mins. before the bell Took me a while to calm down.

I can't help but be hopeful, but if it is to be, we have a lot of work ahead of us. 

Thanks for the reminder to stay at 50000 feet. You can be sure I will.

Yes, Conrad, I'm sure it was the lumber. Thanks, Buddy!

Gotta go grab some lunch.

Thank you all for being here for me.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I'm sitting here, waiting for him to come. I am SO nervous.

I know......55000 feet!

I'll let you know what happens as soon as I can.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Stay cool. Long journey ahead of you whatever happens, we are thinking of you.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I'm sitting here, waiting for him to come. I am SO nervous.
> 
> I know......55000 feet!
> 
> I'll let you know what happens as soon as I can.


Play it cool, Frost.

Hugs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Thinkin of you Frosty.


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## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

Hi FF, I just caught up with your story and I'm sorry I didn't stop by sooner. Anyhow, good luck and you know you have support here.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Good luck, relax and don't settle for crumbs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Wow Frost, I really hope this works out for you! Just don't expect too much from him. He's hurt you before, he can do it again. Stay grounded.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Where to start? 

Some rather awkward chit chat about the kids and the house. Then a long silence. Then he started talking about leaving her. He said he always felt that his family was here. He cried. I have never seen my H cry. He said that he had hurt everyone (I agreed). He said he wanted to try to rebuild what we had. To which I said, "I don't want what we had.". To my amazement ('cause I thought I'd have to explain what I meant), he said that he wanted it it be better than before.

I told him that I wanted to work on it too, but that I didn't think we could do it alone. I remarked that I knew how he felt about counselling, but I thought we needed to go to MC. He said he would!!!

We talked about a couple of things that we need to work on. I said communication. He said that and doing things together (which would have been my next item). I also said that he had to completely break it off with OW. He agreed (which was fortunate, 'cause it was a short distance between me and the kitchen knives).

I explained that I couldn't just jump back into a relationship with him. I had to work through some things, including the trust issue. He understood. I asked him where he would live. he said he didn't know, but then added, "well, I do rent a room where I live now."!!! I almost started for the knives, but instead made it VERY clear that that was not an option. He's going to a hotel.

He talked about how difficult his leaving would be on her kids. I said that this was going to sound very harsh, but that it is not my problem. He said he knew and that it was better to leave now before they became even more attached to him. 

I asked what would happen when he took his things and left. Was she likely to become violent? He said its possible. I suggested he stop at the local police station and give them a heads up. Don't know if he will. He is going to leave tonight and will text me to let me know he's ok. I asked about contacting a member of her family to go over. She has no-one. Even her father has written her off, except for the mortgage he holds on the house.

I asked if he was going to take her to Mexico. He said no, it was all in her mind. I asked if he would still go, that I thought he should, but he said no, that working around here would be relaxing. (!!!)

I asked what he thought went wrong with us. He said he felt it was all the stress with our son, his job, etc. I asked what I had done to make him want to leave. He said he didn't think I had done anything, that it was all the stress. So Ia asked what he saw in her that he didn't see in me (I'm trying to figure out what to work on). He said he didn't know except maybe it was that she seemed to be in control of her life (Well, Honey, we know how that panned out!...I didn't say that!).

So, he left to go and leave. I'm worried, but there is absolutely nothing I can do. 

As he left, he said, "well, I'll go see if the kids have made anything for their supper". She doesn't make meals for them! Their father deserted.

This is a rather discombobulated version, but in a nutshell, we are going to try and make it work.

Oh no, does this mean I have to leave this forum?!!

Thank you all SO much for your support over the last two days. I could not have made it through without you.

I will keep you informed. Right now, I have to run. My oldest has invited me for supper, which is always interesting. He knows how to boil water.....

Thanks again, everyone. You're great! Hugs.

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----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm not too familiar with some of the steps when dealing with a POSOW / OM ..

But, I have heard a lot about 'NC Letters' being issued.

Hopefully someone can enlighten you more on the subject.


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## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> I'm not too familiar with some of the steps when dealing with a POSOW / OM ..
> 
> But, I have heard a lot about 'NC Letters' being issued.
> 
> Hopefully someone can enlighten you more on the subject.


When my W broke it off with OM there was no explaination given from her to him. Last time she cut him off it was the "closure" conversation that started them talking again :banghead:

So this time I talked to him being that he lives across the street.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

frost i hope the best for you period my b.c. freind whatever that is, i wish you wouldn't leave though, you are still vulnerable & may need advice during your reconciliation. whatever the decision it has always been a pleasure talking to you


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

muskrat said:


> Hi FF, I just caught up with your story and I'm sorry I didn't stop by sooner. Anyhow, good luck and you know you have support here.


No worries, Rat. I know you've been preoccupied yourself.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Well, apparently things got ugly. R texted me to say that when he told her he was leaving, she went berserk. She threw all his things out onto the font porch. Unfortunately, her kids saw this.

R dropped some of his things off in the garage as arranged (he has nowhere to keep them) while I was at my son's, then went to a hotel. 

I feel so sorry for those kids.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> I'm not too familiar with some of the steps when dealing with a POSOW / OM ..
> 
> But, I have heard a lot about 'NC Letters' being issued.
> 
> Hopefully someone can enlighten you more on the subject.


Anyone?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I believe jellybeans has a link in her Sig


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I believe jellybeans has a link in her Sig


Ta!

Is that all you're going to say?


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I am so glad for you FF! Now the real work begins


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

On my phone


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frost,

This is uplifting news. I am cautiously happy for you.

Expect him to waffle on the NC with posOW. It's probable that he will have difficulty disconnecting from her.

It's so easy for one of them to send a text, and then bam they are communicating again.

Until you are absolutely sure he is NC, be careful about letting him back in.

Stay detached. Observe. And keep us posted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Orpheus (Jul 6, 2012)

ff, hope you'll stay! good news has a tendency to be infectious. congrats on this new turn for you!!!


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm so happy for you, Frost! But please don't go -- we all want to keep in touch, and I'm sure that you'll have a lot you can teach those who are trying to reconcile. 

Big hugs to you, lady!!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Hi FF,

First well done on handling that first discussion. Sounds to me like it went well all things considered.

Second, no you don't need to leave TAM, of course.

Thirdly, throughout this process so far I think you have shown enormous dignity and strength. While I am disappointed that I couldn't get you to really cuss, I have the greatest respect for how you have conducted yourself, and I think you should take a moment to feel proud about the sort of person you are.

Now, on the no contact letter.....well I would probably draw the line of no contact for R, and get him to write the letter. As I see it, it is for him...I don't expect OW to be deterred by it if she wants to try again. You are closer to things, but my view is he chose to move out on her, and this is a different situation from the normal NC scenario, where the WS is not living with the AP. No NC letter was sent when my wife's affair was ended. I did have her write a letter denouncing the affair, but it wasn't to the OM and it was never sent.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thank you all for your kind words.

This is a 'quickie' as I have to leave for school. R asked me out for supper tonight. Yay!

Something has bee gnawing at the back of my mind. Things didn't work out with OW and he has come back to me. What if things had worked out? darn, I have to go 

To be continued?...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

What would you like to know?


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> What would you like to know?


Nothing in particular. Its just that you always have something valuable to say and I was feeling a hole where your words were missing.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Nothing in particular. Its just that you always have something valuable to say and I was feeling a hole where your words were missing.


I actually do think this is valuable.

These are your words:

>>Something has bee gnawing at the back of my mind. Things didn't work out with OW and he has come back to me. What if things had worked out?<<

You feeling like Plan B?


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

I wish I had the knowledge to help you in this part of your situation Frosty.

I too get the feeling that as happy as you are that he "saw some sort of light", you still feel it's too good to be true and likeConrad said.. Plan B.

You are a much stronger woman now than you were when you first got here, maybe he sees that now.

That strength was grown by you, for you. Not so he could see.it eventually and then want it.

You know him the best out of everyone here, if there is an uneasy feeling don't be afraid to dig at it for the truth behind it.

Wishing you the best.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Thank you all for your kind words.
> 
> This is a 'quickie' as I have to leave for school. R asked me out for supper tonight. Yay!
> 
> ...


Welcome to reconciliation. It hurts.

So steel yourself because this is a harsh truth. It could happen again. He could go back to her. Or he could meet someone else. Or he could decide he doesn't want to be with either of you. Or YOU could meet someone else. And these are all unpleasant truths you cannot change. The security of "We were meant for each other so it will be ok" is gone. You must accept this.

You cannot control him. And you can't even really control yourself. Think about all the times you intended one course of action in dealing with his infidelity but your emotions overrode logic. And accept that he had the same problem.

You need to accept this as truth, because it will gnaw at you, and it's futile to shut it down, so you have to learn to live with it. And it's always been true. All that is different is you know it now.

But it's not all hopeless. All of the above is true for me, and it still hurts, but right now my marriage is the best it has ever been. I just sometimes get quiet because I am processing the bad feelings. But not as often, not as deeply and not for as long. It's like the pain of losing a loved one. You never totally get over it, but it recedes and becomes a manageable emotion.

Be logical for a second. Don't be romantic. Think about what it takes to make the marriage work.

You guys lasted years. When he broke, under significant pressure, he lived with her for six months, and you know he was going through a process of working out how to leave before that. So your relationship might have the better prospect for longevity. In a sense this affair may improve that. First because it forces you to wake up and confront issues in the marriage. Second because he's tried the grass in the other paddock and realised it wasn't really greener. Hopefully he has learned from that. Thirdly because you now have a clue to some of his weaknesses that led to infidelity and you can support him in that.

There's something about him that attracts you. And I am betting there's something about you that attracts him. Plus you have a lot of history together. No-one else can have that.

Now, what you need to do is rebuild positives.

First, take time, do not rush, I think that is wise. Apart from anything else, it tells him you are not a pushover.

Second, resume physical contact as quickly as you comfortably can (and I don't just mean sexual here) because it's a great healer. Touch says things words can't say. And sex drives still need to be met. How was your sex life before he left you? Could that be what happened...it all grew from a sexual temptation? Don't believe that guys separate sex from emotion, it is just not true. 

Third, don't take any more of his crap, in the nicest possible way. Convenience store flowers for birthday? No. That matters to you, and you are better than that. So sit down with him and block at weekends away, just the two of you, for things like birthdays, doing things you like. Talk about what you want, don't expect him to read your mind. Plan date nights. Do a course together. Ride bikes together. Plan evenings in that stupid hot tub that doesn't work  just the two of you and a bottle of wine. *Make these things a priority*. Especially,* talk*. Remember how you used to talk when you first met? Do it. Don't avoid taboo subjects, don't hide things that are important to you because he might not like them. Restore honesty.

Fourth, remember how you went to a lot of trouble trying to look good for him while dating? Do that again. Not happy with your weight? Work on it. Not happy with your hair? Get a new style. Years since you bought a really nice outfit because money was tight? Stuff that, go out and buy one or two. Don't go crazy, but live! And do it together!

Well this is already too long so I will stop typing. You can wake up now 

_Edit : Sorry to add to a post that is already too long, but I left out a very important point. *He wants to come back to you. Think about that*. He didn't have to. He could have left her and lived alone. But he wants to try with you again. Various people have said you are plan B. That is not the way I read it at all. You have deep values and I don't think the OW does. Your character is probably shining out like a diamond in sh*t to him right now. 
_


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## goingthroughpain (Aug 16, 2012)

Congratulations Frost! Good luck on everything, and keep on TAM.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I actually do think this is valuable.
> 
> These are your words:
> 
> ...


See, I knew I could depend on you!

We went out for supper tonight. Talked about the kids, the jobs. Afterwards, we sat in the pergola by the restaurant and really talked. He said that he almost left her after the first email incident. I asked why he stayed and he said he didn't know. He said that he thought about the kids and me all the time. I talked about how I was feeling about maybe being plan B. He actually reached for my hand (he's not a very demonstrative guy, I usually am the one reaching out) and said, "No, absolutely not.". 

Now I can put this in perspective. I get that he could just be saying that, but I believe he was speaking the truth. Having said that, I also know that it's possible he's not or that he wants to believe what he's saying. But you know what, at this point anyway, I'm not going to let that worry consume me. What happens from now is going to be my focus. Wazza is right, he is back with me.




UpnOver said:


> I wish I had the knowledge to help you in this part of your situation Frosty.
> 
> I too get the feeling that as happy as you are that he "saw some sort of light", you still feel it's too good to be true and likeConrad said.. Plan B.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Up. it's not an uneasy feeling, it was just a little prickle in the back of my head. 

You're right about digging. In the past, I would have asked, he would have given a short answer and I would have backed off frustrated. But, these last few times, I have dug and I have shared how I feel. He's answering and I'm not frustrated. If only we had done this from the beginning of our relationship. I think the affair has actually helped. As you said, I'm stronger,and I think he realizes if it is to work, he has to be open.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza, I'm not quoting your post, because cyber space isn't infinite.:awink: But I do appreciate it. Thank you for your honesty.

The part you wrote about touching is really timely. I have been avoiding it, even though there have been times when I wanted to reach out. When he was crying, it took all my strength not to. Tonight when he took my hand, it felt so right, but I was afraid it was rushing. When we said goodbye, we hugged and then he kissed me briefly kissed me on the lips and I returned it And again I wondered if it was moving too fast. Oh, my gosh, 32 years and it all seems like new territory!

So, I was interested to read that you advocate it. I understand that touch is healing. I can see holding hands, hugging, but isn't sex rushing it?

You are totally right about the need to do things together and to talk. These are two areas where we failed miserably. We're planning a bike ride for this weekend. 

I want to think about your words more, so I'll leave it at that for now. Besides, wouldn't want this to get too long! :awink:


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## sleeplessindesert (Aug 25, 2012)

Frostflower,
I am so happy for you. You have given so much to so many people and deserve happiness.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

sleeplessindesert said:


> Frostflower,
> I am so happy for you. You have given so much to so many people and deserve happiness.


Thank you, Sleepless. That's nice of you to say. I hope that you will find your own happiness too.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> The part you wrote about touching is really timely. I have been avoiding it, even though there have been times when I wanted to reach out. When he was crying, it took all my strength not to. Tonight when he took my hand, it felt so right, but I was afraid it was rushing. When we said goodbye, we hugged and then he kissed me briefly kissed me on the lips and I returned it And again I wondered if it was moving too fast. Oh, my gosh, 32 years and it all seems like new territory!
> 
> So, I was interested to read that you advocate it. I understand that touch is healing. I can see holding hands, hugging, but isn't sex rushing it?
> 
> You are totally right about the need to do things together and to talk. These are two areas where we failed miserably. We're planning a bike ride for this weekend.


Typical FF. First you come on this board swearing like a sailor, and now I write the longest post of my life and you just read the sex scenes 

Don't overthink the sex and touching thing. If you aren't ready you aren't ready.

Remember that first time he came over and said it wasn't going well? And you hugged him. Kind of felt natural?

I would expect you will have times when the conversation is deeply emotional and you just feel the need to make love. And if it were me, when that happens I wouldn't fight it. Take the risk. Let it happen. 

If you have a particular timeframe before you have sex, or particular conditions that must be met, I would tell him so he knows he needn't stay celibate for ever.

We men are pathetic. A good meal, a good shag, and we are happy.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Don't have unprotected sex with him until you are sure he's clean.

Yes, it's humiliating for him.

Too damned bad.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Typical FF. First you come on this board swearing like a sailor, and now I write the longest post of my life and you just read the sex scenes
> 
> Don't overthink the sex and touching thing. If you aren't ready you aren't ready.
> 
> ...





Conrad said:


> Don't have unprotected sex with him until you are sure he's clean.
> 
> Yes, it's humiliating for him.
> 
> Too damned bad.


Who knew I'd be discussing my sex life on the internet. Sheesh!

Good point, Conrad.

And you, Wazza! I thought a shag was a haircut! :awink:


Weird afternoon coming up. He is getting a haircut, but had made the appointment in the community where he was living. He asked me to have supper with him again (I may weigh 300 pounds if we keep this up!). So, I am going with him to the haircut place, which turns out to be in the home of one of OW's friends (although he said he doesn't think they are friends anymore). Then he tells me he has to drop money off to OW for the room he was renting! Its a cash deal, so it can't go in the mail. I offered to do it while he was getting his haircut. He said I could, or we could go together. It involves ringing the doorbell and handing the envelope to whomever answers. I asked what about if its her, she will try to engage you. He said she never answers the door. It will be one of the kids. Might be easier on the child if I do it. We'll have that discussion on the way out there.

And I'll say it again, my job is so interfering with my TAM time!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Who knew I'd be discussing my sex life on the internet. Sheesh!
> 
> Good point, Conrad.
> 
> ...


If you are strong enough, drop the money off without him. No contact.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

With the money for the room....how long does the "lease" have to run? Maybe find out and pay off the entire amount now so you don't have to go back there.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Are you even sure that there is a written lease between him and posow?

Ask him.

If he says no, then he should be able to leave on the spot.

In Manitoba we have a tenant branch that regulates everything.

Is there anything like that in your province?

Make sure he's not using this "rent" thing as an excuse to keep in touch with her.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> Are you even sure that there is a written lease between him and posow?
> 
> Ask him.
> 
> ...


He might feel honor bound to uphold the deal. If it is a cash deal I assume there is no record of it and he could walk if he wanted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

This is all so awesome for you! Just wanted you to know that I am keeping up to date, and I will be sure to give you my unsolicited advice if I feel it will be constructive


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> He might feel honor bound to uphold the deal. If it is a cash deal I assume there is no record of it and he could walk if he wanted.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If he feels "honor" bound to keep paying posow rent, then his @ss needs to be back out the door.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> If he feels "honor" bound to keep paying posow rent, then his @ss needs to be back out the door.


Would I honor a verbal agreement with someone who stole my spouse? Probably not. Though if I make a promise I like to keep it. 

If I thought that money was going to buy food for the kids or something? Maybe more likely to pay.

Don't know what I'd do, but would respect any decision made by FF and R.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Turns out the money wasn't for rent. I misunderstood. He had at some point promised to help her buy some things for the house, like air conditioners. He felt honor-bound to keep his word,(too bad that hadn't applied to marriage vows four months ago). I didn't ask how much. I waited in the car while he dropped it off. She did come to the door, I think one of the kids called her. The front door was hidden by a wall, so I couldn't see. He was gone about five minutes, which was beginning to concern me. Apparently she went and got a couple of his things that she had missed when she threw it all on the porch. I asked if she was angry and he said she had calmed down.

We went for supper, but just talked about the kids and the food! I was too tired for anything beyond that (not sleeping well).

Tomorrow, he is going to do some work around the house while I'm at school. He works longer hours at his job so that he can take every second Friday off, which was nice when I had Fridays off. 

My daughter is having a hard time with R and I getting back together. Apparently, she had texted him last week to thank him for leaving some money for her to go to the Fair. They exchanged a few texts and she told him a bit about school. But, since I told her we were going to try and make it work, she has been adamant that she doesn't want to see him. Today, she texted me to remind me not to forget to drop off the car at her work. She ended it with, "I'm already not too impressed with you." I will talk to her about it when I see her. I understand (if that what she isn't impressed about) that she saw my pain and is protective and also that she must have been hurt as he left her too, but I can't make my decision based on her feelings. She will leave one day and I will be here alone.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

I don't like the feeling of this all.

You even said it yourself, where was the honor for your marriage.

What else will he have to "honor" in the future?

Be careful ... I really don't want to rain on the hopeful thoughts, maybe your daughter knows more than she's letting on?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Honor bound... with posOW?


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

The last line of your post just hit me, Frost:

She will leave one day and I will be here alone.

That's not a reason to try R. You need to be OK with being alone before you try R. Wazza has tried to tell you how difficult R can be. If things don't work out, I worry that you will settle just so that you're not alone. I wonder if that's what your daughter is thinking, too. It may not just be about her feelings about R or what he did to her by leaving. 

Something with that just doesn't sit well with me, Frost. I'm worried about you.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> I don't like the feeling of this all.
> 
> You even said it yourself, where was the honor for your marriage.
> 
> ...





angelpixie said:


> The last line of your post just hit me, Frost:
> 
> She will leave one day and I will be here alone.
> 
> ...





Conrad said:


> Honor bound... with posOW?


I appreciate your concern. I will be careful. Good point about other commitments. I will talk to him about it.

Angel, I didn't mean to make it sound that that is why I am trying R. That's not it at all. What I meant was, in the end it is not my daughter's decision. I didn't word it well at all.

I am not doing this because I don't want to be on my own. I'm doing it because I love R, I missed him, and I don't want to move on without giving it a chance. If I did, I would never know if we could have had something wonderful. 

I respect my daughter's feelings. I hope she can work through them because I want her to have a good relationship with her father whatever happens between him and me. If anyone has any suggestions as to how I can help her, I would love to hear them. The boys seemed surprised to hear we were trying R, but overall, I think they are okay with it. A bit worried, but okay. 

R is working on the house today. My daughter finishes work at 4:00. She asked if he would be gone when she gets home. She has my car, so R is going to pick me up at 4:00 and, if he is okay with it, we can go off and do something, rather than going t the house. Problem solved for today.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

OK, thanks for explaining, FF. You know we just don't want to see you hurt again, right? Good luck tonight -- I hope things go well.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Honor bound... with posOW?


For me it's about the value of my word, not who it was givn to. R might feel the same.

Not saying I would do as he did, just saying I understand it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wazza said:


> For me it's about the value of my word, not who it was givn to. R might feel the same.
> 
> Not saying I would do as he did, just saying I understand it.


Sounds more like guilt.

Inappropriate guilt at that.


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## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> For me it's about the value of my word, not who it was givn to. R might feel the same.
> 
> Not saying I would do as he did, just saying I understand it.


I get it and I'm a person who stands by my word. But in this situation his word didn't mean much to him when he abandoned his family. He gave his word on their wedding day, did he honor that? Now he feels the need to honor his word to the posow? I don't like it, be careful FF.
If he is a man of honor then he should honor his w and his family!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> The last line of your post just hit me, Frost:
> 
> She will leave one day and I will be here alone.
> 
> ...


Actually, I respectfully disagree. 

The only reason we gt into relationships is that we'd rather not be alone. Being in a relationship is better.

So in a situation like this FF has a hard choice. She can decide that R is worth the risk of another attempt, or she can look for someone else, or she can be alone.

Complicating this, she and R have decades of history together. That is something she can never have with anyone else.

None of that is enough to make reconciliation work, but it's enough to decide it's worth a try.

FF's actions, to me, reek of strength in a difficult situation, not desperation. And her love for R, warts and all, shines through her words.

Reconciliation is hard, but not impossible, and if it works it is worth it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

muskrat said:


> I get it and I'm a person who stands by my word. But in this situation his word didn't mean much to him when he abandoned his family. He gave his word on their wedding day, did he honor that? Now he feels the need to honor his word to the posow? I don't like it, be careful FF.
> If he is a man of honor then he should honor his w and his family!


Perhaps if he is a man of his word, who realises what he did when he walked, that is all the more reason to keep his word this time.

I don't know, and I agree FF should be careful. But I suspect she already knows that.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Actually, I respectfully disagree.
> 
> The only reason we gt into relationships is that we'd rather not be alone. Being in a relationship is better.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, Wazza, and FF clarified what she meant in the earlier post. I was just worried that, in many cases, after a split the BS is extremely lonely and gets to a point where he/she would settle for an unhealthy relationship, just to not be alone. That's what I was referring to. I have nothing against relationships (hope to be in another one myself, someday), and I think there are far too few attempts at reconciliation. I am positive that many, many marriages could be saved if both parties were willing to put in the hard work involved.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> I agree with you, Wazza, and FF clarified what she meant in the earlier post. I was just worried that, in many cases, after a split the BS is extremely lonely and gets to a point where he/she would settle for an unhealthy relationship, just to not be alone. That's what I was referring to. I have nothing against relationships (hope to be in another one myself, someday), and I think there are far too few attempts at reconciliation. I am positive that many, many marriages could be saved if both parties were willing to put in the hard work involved.


I hope I wouldn't settle for an unhealthy relationship. I want us both to really work at this one to make it very healthy. I agree, Angel, a lot of marriages could be saved if both parties were willing to put in the hard work. Sadly it seems that for many, marriage is just another aspect of out throw-away society.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

The latest:

As I was entering a meeting I had just scheduled at work into the calendar on my phone, I noticed a text from R. As a rule, I don't do personal texting or emails during instructional hours (I do check in on TAM, but on my lunchhour), but as this one began 'OMG', I read it. It went something like: OMG. Some of my things hidden in the attic. On my way back to the house.

I went into panic mode (I'm so stable these days). Shaking, I texted back: Be careful. Stop and get a police officer to go with you.

Figuring he was driving and wouldn't see the text until it was too late, I started to disintegrate, picturing him stabbed on her kitchen floor. I had to talk to someone, so I went and told my principal. I was near tears, so she calmed me down and suggested I call him. I misdials three times. Finally got it right. He answered and I just about collapsed from relief. He said he was at our house. The story went like this:

He had been looking through some of his things for something and realized that everything wasn't there. He called her and sure enough, as she had been tossing his belongings out onto the porch, she had kept some aside and hid them. 

So, he went to get them. He had texted me before he left to explain, but I hadn't seen that text. he sent it in the moring. I noticed his second text at 1:30. So, by the time I read it, he had been and was back at our place where he had been working.

Anyway, when he got there and collected his things, he asked if that was all. She told him there were things in the attic. He had to get a ladder to retrieve them. He found all his meds and some other stuff up there. I guess she managed to remain calm as she does have a daycare. 

He figures he has everything now.

What next?!!

He picked me up after school and we had some quiet time on the deck. I offered to make supper, but he knew I was tired, so we went to MacD's (do we know how to live or what?!). We had a nice time. He brought his laptop and we looked to see where our sons are working.

Oh, yah, my son who just left got a job!!!! All we know is that it is a camp job and it involves driving a truck. Hopefully we will get more info tomorrow. He went to a job fair and was offered three jobs. He took this one so he won't have to pay rent.

Tomorrow, R and I are going bike riding.

Things are going well with us, but my daughter finally did tell me what I suspected. She is not happy that R and I are seeing each other. Thinks its 'stupid after what he did'. She says my oldest feels the same. I don't know how to handle this. I didn't tell R, but I will have to. He needs to figure out what he can do to start to make things better.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks for the update, FF. Boy, I was nervous reading your story. I can imagine how you must have felt!! Glad everything turned out OK when he went to get his stuff. 

And, yes, he is the one who needs to do the hard work with his kids. I hope he does.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frosty, how many more trips to posow house are you going to be okay with?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> Frosty, how many more trips to posow house are you going to be okay with?


Up, I understand and appreciate your concern. The fact that he told me about this says something. He could have gone and not said a word. I wouldn't have known. But, how about I tell him that should there be any more trips I go along? I won't say this, but next time I won't wait in the car. I will go in with him. 

She obviously did this to get him to go back. Maybe she put the stuff in the attic hoping for a third trip. He would have had to go back for his meds. Too bad for her he noticed that there were still things missing. Nah, na, na na na!


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Up, I understand and appreciate your concern. The fact that he told me about this says something. He could have gone and not said a word. I wouldn't have known. But, how about I tell him that should there be any more trips I go along? I won't say this, but next time I won't wait in the car. I will go in with him.
> 
> She obviously did this to get him to go back. Maybe she put the stuff in the attic hoping for a third trip. He would have had to go back for his meds. Too bad for her he noticed that there were still things missing. Nah, na, na na na!


"I'm not okay with you entering your posow (guess you could change that part) house anymore."

Okay, he let you know. That is something you can let him know you appreciate...BUT, you then have to reinforce your boundaries.

Don't him think that it's okay simply because he had let you know once.

Foot in the door mentality can lead to bad things.

As for posow place, things were left on the porch once, why can't they be done that way again?

No need to enter the house.

Also... and I say this cautiously because I don't want upset or hurt you...

Posow could very well be acting "nice" simply to try and lure him back in the event you 2 hit a bumpy road.

NC with posow needs to be established.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> "I'm not okay with you entering your posow (guess you could change that part) house anymore."
> 
> Okay, he let you know. That is something you can let him know you appreciate...BUT, you then have to reinforce your boundaries.
> 
> ...


Things were actually thrown on the porch as he was trying to pack his stuff up.

I will have the NC conversation with him. 

I am non-confrontational, but I'm at the point where I would love to stand in front of her. I think I would simply stand and stare at her while he collected his things.

Only thing is, then I would have a clear picture of her when thoughts of him and her having sex creep in. Hard enough to deal with without that.

BTW, she told him that she and her father are going to a mediator to improve their relationship. Hopefully, the mediator will tell her that she needs IC.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Hi Frost, 

I can relate to your daughter. Is R her biological father? 
My mother keeps taking my stepfather back after he cheats, goes on trips without her knowing where he is, etc. He just buys her a new car, takes her on an exotic vacation, etc everytime he mess up big. My mother is codeowndent and thinks she can't live without him, the life he provides. I feel sorry for her. 

I know this is nor your case but each time she takes him back I get angry at her like your daughter feels with you. Its because she thinks you are making a mistake taking him back. She looks up to you for guidance. It may seem like you are setting a bad example but you are not. You are showing her that everyone deserves a second chance if truly remorseful. Is R showing true remorse? Also the key is in showing him the door if he slips and goes back to OW. That will be something your daughter learns from.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> Hi Frost,
> 
> I can relate to your daughter. Is R her biological father?
> My mother keeps taking my stepfather back after he cheats, goes on trips without her knowing where he is, etc. He just buys her a new car, takes her on an exotic vacation, etc everytime he mess up big. My mother is codeowndent and thinks she can't live without him, the life he provides. I feel sorry for her.
> ...


Thanks, Script. I hadn't thought of anger. It must be confusing for her. She saw how hurt I was when I found out about OW. 

I'm thinking of writing my kids a letter. I can write better than I can talk, plus they are in three different places, the boys being hundreds of miles away. I can express my feelings about R and what happened and explain why I am trying with him.

Yes, R is showing true remorse. To me. He needs to do the same with his children. That's going to be hard. maybe if he writes something too.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Yes. Thats why we feel confused/hurt because we see the suffering.

I think it would help a lot if he reaches out and apologize to them too. He will earn their respect again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> Yes. Thats why we feel confused/hurt because we see the suffering.
> 
> I think it would help a lot if he reaches out and apologize to them too. He will earn their respect again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Makes sense. I've been trying to think of what to suggest to him. He has trouble communicating through talk, so a letter might be a good idea. 

My daughter saw the worse, when I found out about OW. she held me when I fell apart. It must look 'stupid' that I am trying with him.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

This is an aside. In the midst of all this, R's credit card was compromised. The charges included flights to Jordan. Luckily he doesn't have to pay!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> This is an aside. In the midst of all this, R's credit card was compromised. The charges included flights to Jordan. Luckily he doesn't have to pay!


He should send posOW.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> He should send posOW.



Only if its a one-way trip!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Only if its a one-way trip!


She's human!!!!! Yes.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> She's human!!!!! Yes.


Very funny!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Very funny!


Everything ok?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

R and I went for a bike ride together yesterday. Today we were together here at the house, me doing housework and he the renos. Our daughter continues to avoid him. Apparently she texted our oldest to tell him that R was spending time with me. He called and expressed concern. I assured him that I was being careful, but I know that I need to say more. I am going to write one letter to all of them explaining how I feel. Their dad made a mistake, a huge one, but he is remorseful. It is important to be able to forgive and I hope that one day, when they are in a position to extend forgiveness, they remember what they saw their mother do.

Stress raised its head again last night. Our son, who is in another province looking for a job, had told us the day before that he had been offered one driving trucks. Last night he called again. The company had scheduled a drug test for him. Although he had stopped his other drug use (and I give him credit for that), the silly twit had been smoking pot before he left here. Apparently it can stay in your system for twelve weeks or more. There is no way he could pass a drug test. I saw the stress lite on R's face as he heard that, but he handled it well. Told our son that he might as well come back here to wait it out as he is costing us about $100 a day in hotel bills and food. We were looking at continuing this support for weeks more.

Today, our son called again. He was offered another job and will be starting tomorrow. As far as he knows, even though its a driving job, there is no drug test (which is scary). He was told to be there at 7:00 and that he would be on the road by 8:00. This job is driving huge trucks with two trailers. If it works out, it will be fantastic experience for his resume. As his Mum, I am terrified at the thought of him handling such big vehicles, but he really needs this. And we really need this. Between our son's expenses and R's hotel, things are not looking rosy financially.

R also spoke to his brother today. His wife is still in a coma, although she has opened her eyes a few times. She had been in a complete coma since the beginning of August and almost died a couple of times. Yet the worst is still to come. She doesn't know that the baby died.

Before all this happened, they had bought a bigger house in which to raise their children and were to move in at the end of this month. R offered to go and help with the move (they live at the other end of the country). But the wife's Mom, who is a millionaire, has arranged to have everything done. R now plans to go in October to see him and the rest of his family.

He will also be away for a total of three weeks with work between now and then, so we will have plenty of time apart to think about things. He told his brother that we are trying and I heard him say that he missed us when we were separated. 

So, we are trying. R has been very considerate. He even uses the main bathroom rather than the ensuite. He hasn't pressed physically. He doesn't even try to deepen our kisses, just takes my lead. I'm not ready to go beyond light kisses, and am definitely not ready to go beyond kissing.

Tonight I made supper and we ate at the table, with candles rather than in front of the t.v. as we had been doing for the past couple of years (he was using the table as a workbench). Our daughter was working, so it was just us, and he left before she got home.

It all seems very strange. I'm not sure how to do this. I asked him what we needed to change from the way we were before. He said that we need to talk and we need to do things together, which is exactly what I think. The talking is challenging at times. We are not used to communicating. Any suggestions as to how to work on this would be appreciated.

Oh, at one point he said that one thing he loves about me is that I am so easy to get along with. LOL. Genghis Khan was easy to get along with compared to OW.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

He needs to get off the weed.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frost,

If you want to connect, listen with your eyes.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> He needs to get off the weed.


I believe he realizes that (finally). This is something I feel guilty about. He has had a hard go in life (long story). I was completely naive when it came to drugs as I have never used anything, not even pot. So, I didn't recognize the signs. And R didn't know how bad it was. Then we found out he was using cocaine. We tried to get him help, but he refused. Anyway, he kicked the cocaine finally, after a heck of a roller coaster ride for both him and us. He knew he had to get away from his 'pals' here, that's why he left. I pray that he is done with all of it. He still smokes and drinks too much, but I feel that if he gets on his feet with this job and makes a life for himself, he will be all right.

But the thought of him driving those huge trucks scare the life out of me.



Conrad said:


> Frost,
> 
> If you want to connect, listen with your eyes.


Tell me more. Please.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Less talk.

More observing.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Tell me more. Please.


Up is on it.

But, it's even a bit more nuanced.

When you are talking to him... watch his movements. Is he looking at you? Is he restless? Stammering?

Comment on these things.

"This subject seems really uncomfortable for you"

"And, (what you said) THAT really bothers you"

"This really ties you up in knots"

When you comment on how someone seems, rather than what they are saying, they feel heard.

It's called empathic listening.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Up is on it.
> 
> But, it's even a bit more nuanced.
> 
> ...


Unless they are very defensive.

Can't it seem more hostile to them?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnOver said:


> Unless they are very defensive.
> 
> Can't it seem more hostile to them?


Anyone can go into vigorously defensive denial at anytime.

Yet, if Frost and her husband want to make the effort to validate each other's feelings and get open communication, what's been outlined above is how to give the other person psychological air.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Up is on it.
> 
> But, it's even a bit more nuanced.
> 
> ...


Sounds good. That, combined with reflective listening (ie- H:"You never listen to me!" W: "You feel that I don't listen to you."), sounds like an effective approach.

I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

R talked to our daughter today. She wouldn't open her door (to be fair, she had just had a shower, so may not have been decent), so he talked through the door. He told me after that he basically said he knew he had hurt her and is sorry, that he loves me and her and wants a chance to try again. She said okay. Now, I haven't seen her to talk to her alone and find out how she really feels, but hopefully they have made some progress.

I saw my parents this afternoon and told them that he and I were trying to R. It was funny, my stomach was in knots. I think I thought that my Dad would warn me not to, but, although they both seemed surprised, all my Dad said was that it was 'better than the other way'. I said, "The other way?" and he said, 'Divorce". 

So, three people down! I mentioned to R that, although it would be hard, he needs to talk to my parents and other people in our lives who knew we were separated. He said that he knows.

We also talked about things we could do together, like go to movies, go swimming, relax in the hot tub, etc All things we could have done together in the past , but rarely did. 

And then, my supreme sacrifice for the relationship: I said that I would watch hockey! He knows how I feel about hockey, and he looked very sceptical, probably not that I would actually do it, but that I would do it successfully. He replied, "But you don't like hockey." I reminded him how my brother and his wife watch football together and it is something they bond over. I asked how many hockey games there would be. He said a couple a week. I said I could probably manage one. Supreme sacrifice! Oh, well, at least its not football!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> R talked to our daughter today. She wouldn't open her door (to be fair, she had just had a shower, so may not have been decent), so he talked through the door. He told me after that he basically said he knew he had hurt her and is sorry, that he loves me and her and wants a chance to try again. She said okay. Now, I haven't seen her to talk to her alone and find out how she really feels, but hopefully they have made some progress.
> 
> I saw my parents this afternoon and told them that he and I were trying to R. It was funny, my stomach was in knots. I think I thought that my Dad would warn me not to, but, although they both seemed surprised, all my Dad said was that it was 'better than the other way'. I said, "The other way?" and he said, 'Divorce".
> 
> ...


I have a friend who had the same thing happen. She met her husband because she sat and watched a hockey game to be polite to another guy.

Good decision. You never know where hockey could take you with R.

Make sure he does something you like in return. Needlework or knitting perhaps? He needs to make sacrifices too!!!!!!

P.s. I am only half tongue in cheek here. Make sure you include things both of you like.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I have a friend who had the same thing happen. She met her husband because she sat and watched a hockey game to be polite to another guy.
> 
> Good decision. You never know where hockey could take you with R.
> 
> Make sure he does something you like in return. Needlework or knitting perhaps? He needs to make sacrifices too!!!!!!


LOL! The thought of my 6' H knitting, or better yet, crocheting a doily.....LOL! But I will suggest it!

Shouldn't laugh. My cousin was in the Royal Navy (on the same ship in the Falklands with Prince Andrew) and he took up knitting to pass the time. Made his wife a nice coat. 

I did tell R that he would have to explain hockey to me. He looked a bit pained.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> He said that we need to talk and we need to do things together, which is exactly what I think. The talking is challenging at times. We are not used to communicating. Any suggestions as to how to work on this would be appreciated.


Time together and communications are related. 

Arrange time when there are no distractions. So bike riding is fun, but you probably don't talk much, though planning bike rides, upgrading bikes, etc, gives you a topic to talk about. Being together at home can be fun but if you are watching tv, playing on a computer of reading a book you aren't talking.

I used to take my wife out to dinner and at one point the only things she could talk about were work and the kids. So I worked to develop other mutual interests we could talk about. And I built a list of conversation topics. The internet is full of them.

The list of conversation topics included all the taboo areas we were avoiding because they were sensitive. Such things have to be handled carefully, but it's good to break through some barriers.

What are things you would like to know better about R? Maybe ask open questions that don't permit yes/no answers and just see if you can get him talking.

And tell him, honestly, tactfully but without sparing his feelings, about your feelings. And ask for his help with things. Us guys like that stuff.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Very good points by Wazza. Talk about fun stuff, travel, hobbies, dreams.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frost, wanted to stop in here and say that I think you are doing great with R.

Keep standing strong.

I am hoping for great things for you. 

I know they will come to you in some way.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Time together and communications are related.
> 
> Arrange time when there are no distractions. So bike riding is fun, but you probably don't talk much, though planning bike rides, upgrading bikes, etc, gives you a topic to talk about. Being together at home can be fun but if you are watching tv, playing on a computer of reading a book you aren't talking.
> 
> ...





Lifescript said:


> Very good points by Wazza. Talk about fun stuff, travel, hobbies, dreams.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good points. Thank you both. I like the idea of a list of topics. Sitting there trying to think of something to talk about can be painful. And, Script, talking about our dreams is good.

I suggested (I think I read it on TAM somewhere) that we each come up with a list of what we would like in an ideal spouse. Not that we would expect the other person to live up to the entire list, but it would give us some points or discussion and also an idea of what the other person would like. He agreed to do it. Should be interesting.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

spun said:


> Frost, wanted to stop in here and say that I think you are doing great with R.
> 
> Keep standing strong.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Spun. I was really pleased to read the hopeful development in your thread today.

I'm thinking of you!


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

How are things with you Frosty?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> How are things with you Frosty?


Funny you should ask, Up. Things were going well. R and I were getting closer. Then tonight I sat next to him on the couch for a cuddle, the first one since we got back together. He didn't seem to want to make a move (not sure how I'd react maybe), so I put his arm around me and leaned on him. I was listening to his heart, which is something I always liked doing, when it occurred to me that OW had listened to it too. I started crying. He asked what was wrong, so I told him. He apologized. We just sat for a while, but I eventually I just couldn't sit next to him any longer. I made an excuse to leave the room and when I came back, I sat in an armchair. Our goodnight kiss was brief, not like they had been the two previous nights. 

The worse part is, I know this is just the beginning of the hard stuff.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Funny you should ask, Up. Things were going well. R and I were getting closer. Then tonight I sat next to him on the couch for a cuddle, the first one since we got back together. He didn't seem to want to make a move (not sure how I'd react maybe), so I put his arm around me and leaned on him. I was listening to his heart, which is something I always liked doing, when it occurred to me that OW had listened to it too. I started crying. He asked what was wrong, so I told him. He apologized. We just sat for a while, but I eventually I just couldn't sit next to him any longer. I made an excuse to leave the room and when I came back, I sat in an armchair. Our goodnight kiss was brief, not like they had been the two previous nights.
> 
> The worse part is, I know this is just the beginning of the hard stuff.


Frosty,

You'll start feeling better if you refer to her by her forum name.

"posOW"

That's who she is.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Frosty,
> 
> You'll start feeling better if you refer to her by her forum name.
> 
> ...


Come on ff, you can do it! Pretend the "S" stands for "stuff" or "scum". 

Don't worry. What happened is normal and to be expected. It hurts, a lot, but you get through it.


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## blindsidedwife (Sep 7, 2012)

Frostflower, I've just read your entire thread in one sitting - wow what a story! I just wanted to let you know how much your strength has inspired me, thank you. 

I hope things are continuing to go well for you.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Frosty,
> 
> You'll start feeling better if you refer to her by her forum name.
> 
> ...


I can't do it, Conrad. I know what it means. Its not that I never swear and I have called her things in my head, but I just can't do it here.



Wazza said:


> Come on ff, you can do it! Pretend the "S" stands for "stuff" or "scum".
> 
> Don't worry. What happened is normal and to be expected. It hurts, a lot, but you get through it.


You never give up, do you?! Not going to happen.  I could go as far as 'Scumbag'.



blindsidedwife said:


> Frostflower, I've just read your entire thread in one sitting - wow what a story! I just wanted to let you know how much your strength has inspired me, thank you.
> 
> I hope things are continuing to go well for you.


Thank you, Wife. Things are good today.


Well, everybody, I asked R to move back in and he did so today. We talked about him going into our son's room. I am not ready for anything intimate yet. I know it was fast, but asking him felt right and it still feels right now that he is here. It seems weird actually. I sometimes find myself wondering, did the it really happen? Then I remember. Yes, it did.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Well, everybody, I asked R to move back in and he did so today. We talked about him going into our son's room. I am not ready for anything intimate yet. I know it was fast, but asking him felt right and it still feels right now that he is here. It seems weird actually. I sometimes find myself wondering, did the it really happen? Then I remember. Yes, it did.



Step forward. Good. Fingers crossed for you guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Orpheus (Jul 6, 2012)

FF, good luck moving forward. Don't forget us when you're all cuddle-city. Until then however, i hope you'll treat yourself well and stay alert.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Step forward. Good. Fingers crossed for you guys.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, Wazza.



Orpheus said:


> FF, good luck moving forward. Don't forget us when you're all cuddle-city. Until then however, i hope you'll treat yourself well and stay alert.


Thanks , Orpheus. I'm not leaving. I like it here!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Well, I failed the first big issuej of the move-back. We had talked about R using my son's room when he moved back. When it was bedtime, i realized I hadn't washed the sheets and remade the bed. Seems he thought that meant he was back in our room. I thought about saying something while he was getting ready for bed, but I thought it would hurt his feelings, so i said nothing. He got into bed first. When I was ready, I gave him a quick kiss and squished over against the edge on my side. He did not push. Neither of us slept well. I got up quite early and went for a walk and by the time I got back, he was showered and dressed. Don't know where it goes from here.

We had a good day together.

I have an IC appointment on Monday. I have some things I want to talk about, and I will ask about MC. Do you think that, if my counsellor does MC, it would be all right? Or is it better to get someone new? I haven't been to him that often and I really haven't discussed much beyond it hurts.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frost,

You do realize that not standing up for your self is codependence.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Frost,
> 
> You do realize that not standing up for your self is codependence.


Conrad, I do realize that I have a problem with not wanting to hurt people's feelings and that it often means my needs aren't met. But can you explain how this is codependence? I'm not saying its not, but I guess I don't really understand co-dependency. I thought it was when you enabled a behavior such as substance abuse or, as it applies to this forum, entitled-princess behavior. How does it fit here?

Thanks.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Conrad, I do realize that I have a problem with not wanting to hurt people's feelings and that it often means my needs aren't met. But can you explain how this is codependence? I'm not saying its not, but I guess I don't really understand co-dependency. I thought it was when you enabled a behavior such as substance abuse or, as it applies to this forum, entitled-princess behavior. How does it fit here?
> 
> Thanks.


Think about your internal reaction. You REALLY didn't want him there. But, you swallowed it. So, now he thinks it's ok.

Your needs didn't matter.

Enabling happens in all forms.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Think about your internal reaction. You REALLY didn't want him there. But, you swallowed it. So, now he thinks it's ok.
> 
> Your needs didn't matter.
> 
> Enabling happens in all forms.


Basically, I was enabling him to enable me to disregard my own needs. I need to be stronger. Not easy.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Basically, I was enabling him to enable me to disregard my own needs. I need to be stronger. Not easy.


No... because you don't like to hurt people's feelings.

Internally, however, your body let you know this wasn't what you wanted to do. That's why you went to the edge.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't know enough about the technicalities of codependence to talk about it in those terms so let me zoom in on the behaviours using different words.

FF, I certainly agree you have to look after yourself and your needs and wants here.

However your needs and wants are complex and confused. On the one hand you want R back. On the other hand you have a pile of unresolved issues from his affair to work through. This is all a big conflicted mess. It's very hard to know what you want because there is so much uncharted territory, so it's hard to make cerebral plans. Not much works out like you planned anyway.

So you've already tried to get romantic once and had to stop. And you've tried separate beds and messed it up. More like this is going to happen. How big a deal is it too you?

Some people are uncertain whether there spouse even wants them or is just keeping them around as plan B. In such a case boundaries are a tool to manage the situation. But that isn't you. You are just torn about being intimate. Probably R is too. At the very least he's uncertain and guilt-ridden.

If you really still want him in the spare room for a while talk to him about what happened and work it out. On the other hand you could see this as confronting your feelings on intimacy and allow him to stay in your bed.

None of us can decide that for you. I'm not disagreeing with Conrad, just giving another perspective.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Internally, however, your body let you know this wasn't what you wanted to do. That's why you went to the edge.


True at some level. But I reckon it is more about conflicting desires.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad and Wazza, you are both helping me figure this out. Thanks. 

I think you are both right. Part of my reaction was from not getting my needs met, and part was from the intimacy aspect. I didn't say in my initial post, but I was actually breathing fast and had a tightness in my gut. And I'm sure some of that was from my not being able to speak up. 

The intimacy aspect was not that I wanted it, but that I didn't. And I was worried he would try. Don't worry, I would have stopped that. I'm not that weak that I would have sex with my just-returned-from-fantasyland husband if I didn't want it. But I didn't even want him to try. Which he didn't. And hasn't.

Now, behind my not wanting sex is a complicated mess. Its too early for one thing. I'm not trying to punish him, but we have to work more on the relationship more before we go there. Another thing (a big thing), is the thought of him with OW. That just deadens any feelings I start to have. Then there's the desire I have for it to be wonderful and I'm afraid it won't be. And lastly, I am so afraid that he will compare me to her, physically and sexually, and I will come up short. That's why I haven't even deepened our kisses. What if she was a better kisser?

So far, he has been very considerate and has let me take the lead. But eventually, he will want his needs met. I know he won't force it, but.....here we go again.....I don't want to hurt his feelings.

Wazza, you're right. I don't think I'm plan B. Its just all my insecurities around being intimate again. As far as him going into the spare room now, he would. But its okay. As I said, he is respectful and, after all my turmoil, its kind of nice having him with me. Still at opposite ends of the bed, but I guess we'll get to the middle eventually.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> But I didn't even want him to try. Which he didn't. And hasn't.


Good. And of course he's nervous too 



Frostflower said:


> Now, behind my not wanting sex is a complicated mess. Its too early for one thing. I'm not trying to punish him, but we have to work more on the relationship more before we go there.


You own that timing. Just don't beat yourself up if something happens in the spur of the moment and it's not exactly as you planned.



Frostflower said:


> Another thing (a big thing), is the thought of him with OW. That just deadens any feelings I start to have.


Yeah, that sucks, but all you can do is suck it up, unfortunately. Not going to go away but it will get better.



Frostflower said:


> Then there's the desire I have for it to be wonderful and I'm afraid it won't be.


It will be what it is. There will be wonderful moments and not so wonderful moments, and if you had issues with sex before all this you will still have to work through them. But if you can be open about what you are feeling with R, it will give you a better basis to deal with it all.



Frostflower said:


> And lastly, I am so afraid that he will compare me to her, physically and sexually, and I will come up short. That's why I haven't even deepened our kisses. What if she was a better kisser?


Again, hard. But he knows the OW and HE HAS CHOSEN YOU.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Again, hard. But he knows the OW and HE HAS CHOSEN YOU.


An easy choice. She was, excuse the psychological term, whacko.

And what if she hadn't been? That haunts me too.

R will face a consequence in a couple of hours. My parents are coming over for their Sunday afternoon visit. I talked to R about it and said that he would have to have a talk with them. I gave him the possible out (not a permanent out of course, just more time) of having me say we were busy (true, housework all around us). He said it would be okay if they came. Well, they didn't call. They were probably feeling uncomfortable too. So, I called them and invited them. I figured it would be better to get it over with if he had steeled himself for it. 

I did tell him I could leave them alone for a bit if he preferred. He didn't really answer, so I guess I'll play it by ear. This had to be pretty hard for him.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> An easy choice. She was, excuse the psychological term, whacko.
> 
> And what if she hadn't been? That haunts me too.


He had three choices. He could choose you, he could choose her, he could choose neither.

I don't know of a magic wand that will make what you are feeling go away. You would be an idiot not to have thought about this....and I have spoken with you enough to know you are anything but an idiot.

I still doubt my wife sometimes but not as much as I used to. And our sex life suffered in the aftermath of the affair, but right now it's pretty darn good. We are older and sex is different from what it was when we were 20-somethings. But it is the most amazing bonding experience because we are honest about our feelings (good and bad) and have a genuine concern for each other's needs and feelings. It's not porn star sex but it's a bond borne of years. You and R have the years. If you have the feelings, and if you talk about it, in time you will find the same bond.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> An easy choice. She was, excuse the psychological term, whacko.
> 
> And what if she hadn't been? That haunts me too.
> 
> ...


Don't downplay it.

She's a basket case.

He could have tried to "save her"

Don't sell him short. He screwed up, but he may be seeing it now.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Ya know what.....I'm an idiot. All the stuff I typed and I didn't type the single most important thing. Guess I'm still getting over that lobotomy.

TELL HIM WHAT YOU ARE FEELING. DON'T HIDE IT.

Talk to him if you can. Write him a letter if that's easier. Do it in counselling if that's what works. But tell him honestly and completely. Ask him to do the same for you. Open communication up and work on it together. 

The damage to our sex life post-affair was significant. My esteem was shot and it led to performance anxiety and, at times, a no-show. I cannot believe I am admitting something like this, but my answers are dishonest unless I do. 

Being male you try to bluff about that and it just makes things worse. It was hell for me, and hell for her wondering what was going on in my head. Talking about it put it back in perspective for both of us.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Admitting it to us is a problem?

I have to tell you, with some of the stuff that was said to me?

Right there with you.

Mind over matter


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I'll leave the mind over matter comment alone  but for the rest, thank you both.

Wazza, you're not an idiot, lobotomy or not. I will talk to him about what I am feeling and perhaps doing it with a counsellor will help us both work through the issues. Thank you for being so open.

Conrad, I never would have thought of the 'save her' aspect', although I think she was contributing so much stress to his life that just getting away from her looked darn good. He even told me that once he felt a heavy weight lift from his chest. But you have a point, if he had truly cared about her, he would have stayed and tried.

This afternoon, when my parents arrived, I asked again if he wanted time alone with them. He said no. My father shook his hand and said, "Its nice to see you again." Then the visit proceeded like any past visit. R said nothing! Which is exactly how things go in his family. 

Once, when we were staying at his parents' house for a week-long visit, we had quite a fallout. His father was ragging on our son who was four at the time because the boy reached out to stroke their dog, the dog he had played with all week, and the dog snarled at him. Obviously, it was our son's fault! My FIL was really being nasty to him, so R said something about it actually not being our son's fault. To which my MIL turned to me and and snarled (like the dog!), "I don't know why the H_ _ _ you people come here" I lost it and snapped back, "I don't _____ know" (except I added a swear word where the line is. Wazza would have been proud of me! Or maybe not since I was addressing my MIL. 

I took the four year old and the baby and went out to the car. when R came out I told him I was not going back in the house. He said, 'Of course not" and went in and packed up our suitcases. We were actually leaving that day, but not for a couple more hours. When he returned to load the car he told me that he had told his folks we were leaving. You know what his father said? "Oh, you'll need a cup of tea first." NOT!

And no, it wasn't a way to get us in to talk about it. This was how they handled any unpleasant occurrence. As if it never happened.

So R comes by it naturally.

BTW, just so you don't think I'm completely awful, I later wrote to my in-laws, even though R said don't bother they won't care and my mother will think you're weak, and apologized. Never heard another word about the incident. It never happened.

It bothered me that R didn't say anything to my parents. They are too polite to bring it up. Maybe I should have said, "R has something to say to you', but I only thought of that as I was writing this. I did notice when my Mum hugged him goodbye she whispered something in his ear, but he didn't tell me what she said and I am not going to ask.


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## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

You did well FF, don't force things, give it a little time and if he doesn't talk to your parents then you should talk to him about how you feel about it. Don't force it!
My stbxw also comes from a family of professional rug sweepers. It can be very difficult to deal with. 
Things seem to going well for you and R, but don't rush this. You have been through a lot and have only been back together for around a week. This will take a long time, it is a process, your marriage didn't go bad in a week and it won't be fixed in a week.
I think it is good he didn't bring this up with your parents just yet. The two of you need to heal before he can start to heal the other relationships he damaged with his terrible choices.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

muskrat said:


> You did well FF, don't force things, give it a little time and if he doesn't talk to your parents then you should talk to him about how you feel about it. Don't force it!
> My stbxw also comes from a family of professional rug sweepers. It can be very difficult to deal with.
> Things seem to going well for you and R, but don't rush this. You have been through a lot and have only been back together for around a week. This will take a long time, it is a process, your marriage didn't go bad in a week and it won't be fixed in a week.
> I think it is good he didn't bring this up with your parents just yet. The two of you need to heal before he can start to heal the other relationships he damaged with his terrible choices.


Thanks, Rat. What you have said makes sense. I want everything fixed NOW, but I know that isn't realistic.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I've been closing the bathroom door when I'm showering, changing, etc. This morning I opened it a bit when I was getting dressed as the shower had made it hot. All of a sudden R, who had been in the kitchen, pushed the door open and was half in. I actually gasped quite loud and hid behind the door. He took his toothbrush and left. I felt bad, so afterwards I talked to him and explained that I wasn't doing it to be mean, its just that I was having trouble with the whole nakedness and intimacy thing. He said he understood and gave me a big hug. I have an appointment with my IC this afternoon and plan to discuss all this with him. 

I just wish the last several months hadn't happened.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Went to IC. He said what I am feeling about intimacy is perfectly normal and that it will take time for it to fade, and that it may always be there to some degree. He also referred to me as 'somewhat shy' and later as 'submissive passive". I need to make sure I get my needs met (Gee, where have I heard that before?!! You guys should hang shingles and charge for your services.). He said that now is the time to make changes before R and I fall into the same patterns we were in before. He feels there is hope that I can actually do this as I am a different person at work....confident and capable...whereas some people are the same in all settings and its hard for them to change. 

I'm supposed to start small. We talked about one thing that bothers me that R does. "I should complain now that I got my husband back?" was what I was thinking before I talked to the counsellor. I would have simply put up with it, but the counsellor is right. I need to get this need met. Its not a bigee, but I worked hard this summer to get the house neat and keep it that way. I am not by any means a neat freak, but clutter does bother me and actually renders me guilt-ridden and paralyzed in terms of accomplishing anything. R has arrived back with all his stuff and is putting it in all the old places. For example, the paniers from his bike end up on a kitchen chair and some of his stuff is on the table. It has always bugged me, but whenever I said anything, I guess I didn't do it effectively, because the stuff stayed where it was and I fumed inside everytime I looked at it. So, that's where I'm going to start. I'll find another spot for it first. Then tell him I don't like it where it is and it needs to be moved.....please. The assertive approach is new for me at home. Wish me luck, because shy submissive, passive me will need it


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

"I'm not ok with this junk laying around"


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> "I'm not ok with this junk laying around"


I think that would be plan B. At least calling it junk would be. The initial statement might be, "Over the last few months, I've worked hard at tidying the house and keeping it tidy. I'm not okay with things on the kitchen chairs and table. I've found a place for them in DS's old room. Let's move them there.". 

I think calling his beloved and expensive panniers 'junk' would not led to a constructive resolution. But thank you for the frame for my second sentence.

And if things don't get moved and stay moved, I will quote you verbatim in a not so submissive-passive voice.


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## Orpheus (Jul 6, 2012)

ff, quick out; slow back. i think you've got your wits about you and you're doing great.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Orpheus said:


> ff, quick out; slow back. i think you've got your wits about you and you're doing great.


Thanks, Orpheus. I'm trying.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I think that would be plan B. At least calling it junk would be. The initial statement might be, "Over the last few months, I've worked hard at tidying the house and keeping it tidy. I'm not okay with things on the kitchen chairs and table. I've found a place for them in DS's old room. Let's move them there.".
> 
> I think calling his beloved and expensive panniers 'junk' would not led to a constructive resolution. But thank you for the frame for my second sentence.
> 
> And if things don't get moved and stay moved, I will quote you verbatim in a not so submissive-passive voice.


I can come at not swearing, but hesitating to say "junk"???? 

As a slob married to a neat freak, I suggest always have clear and explicit discussion about where things should go, then both live by the agreement. First, current situation aside, it is his house too. Second he may genuinly to understand the issue. My wife sees all sorts of mess that i can't.

Your DS room may be a great suggestion, but maybe he has another idea he would prefer and you could live with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Orpheus said:


> ff, quick out; slow back. i think you've got your wits about you and you're doing great.


Agree!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I can come at not swearing, but hesitating to say "junk"????
> 
> As a slob married to a neat freak, I suggest always have clear and explicit discussion about where things should go, then both live by the agreement. First, current situation aside, it is his house too. Second he may genuinly to understand the issue. My wife sees all sorts of mess that i can't.
> 
> ...


Its not that I can't say junk....oh, you're kidding. Very funny!

Good point about giving him a say in the solution. But what If I don't like his idea any better than the kitchen chair? 



Wazza said:


> Agree!!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks. Sometimes it doesn't feel like it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Good point about giving him a say in the solution. But what If I don't like his idea any better than the kitchen chair?


You are actually confronting two problems. The first is how to get your kitchen back. The second, and far more important one, is how you negotiate to resolve disagreements.

I'm simple. I would just tell him that you are trying to he more assertive while still being respectful of his wishes. And i'd talk. Tell him why the table is a problem. Look for somewhere you can both agree on. 

If you can't agree on storage of bike panniers, how can you possibly work through more difficult issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> You are actually confronting two problems. The first is how to get your kitchen back. The second, and far more important one, is how you negotiate to resolve disagreements.
> 
> I'm simple. I would just tell him that you are trying to he more assertive while still being respectful of his wishes. And i'd talk. Tell him why the table is a problem. Look for somewhere you can both agree on.
> 
> ...


You're right and I like your suggestion. Thanks.


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## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

Totally of subject here FF. But I have downed a bottle of wine and cannot sleep.

If any of you remember this episode of Muppets, this is for you.

Muh Na muh Na!


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## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

P.s.

I am glad to see things are going well for you.

I like that your are always working to make your relationship better. I especially respect your focus on improving communication.

Tell him about the bike stuff on the table/chair. Just be nice about it.

You are doing great


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Btw, in saying bike panniers is an easy issue, I was not in any way discounting its importance to you. It's the little things like that which can make a difference.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

LockeCPM4 said:


> Totally of subject here FF. But I have downed a bottle of wine and cannot sleep.
> 
> If any of you remember this episode of Muppets, this is for you.
> 
> Muh Na muh Na!


Muppets fan here, but that doesn't ring a bell. Maybe if you sing it....



LockeCPM4 said:


> P.s.
> 
> I am glad to see things are going well for you.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Locke.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Btw, in saying bike panniers is an easy issue, I was not in any way discounting its importance to you. It's the little things like that which can make a difference.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I knew what you meant.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

If you see the new Muppets movie, they do the entire end credits over that song. Check it out, Locke!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Additional suggestion. If he doesn't like your idea for the panniers and you don't like his ideas, Don't cave in.Just calmly say that you don't agree and you'll give it some thought. Then park it 24 hours. Ultimately someone has to compromise and time can help that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

OK, homework time.

Original muppets mana mana song - YouTube

Now, how did the bike pannier thing pan out? Sorted?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> OK, homework time.
> 
> Original muppets mana mana song - YouTube
> 
> ...


Boy, I can't get away with anything here! I would have put it off and put it off, but oh no, Wazza had to ask! 

So, because I saw Wazza's post earlier and figured I'd get no peace on my own thread, yes, it is sorted. I explained how I had worked hard to tidy up and keep it tidy, etc. I told him my suggestion but did ask if he had another idea. He said mine was fine. (Yes!). But then he got a bit defensive and said that he hadn't planned on leaving them there long. That's funny because that had been their home for months before he left.

I mentioned that my counsellor would be happy to see us both for MC, but that he also suggested that R night be more comfortable with a different on. I said that either way was fine with me. This is where it got frustrating. He left the room and went and turned on the t.v. I had to bite my tongue not to call after him, "And this is why we need MC!" 

I understand that this is an uncomfortable subject for him, but really?!!


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## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

reconcilliation is a bumpy ride, hopefully he just needs some time to think. That was not a good response for someone who has done what R did and is trying to regain his wife. Just don't push to hard and give it some time, but don't just let it go. There are issues that need to be dealt with, no matter how unpleasant.
This will take lots of hard work from you both, he has to put the effort in! I will give him a pass this time, maybe he had a bad day and doesn't have the emotional strength to deal with this tonight. I hope that tomorrow he will give a response and offer some suggestions on how he feels you should proceed.
NO RUG SWEEPING!!!!!!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Boy, I can't get away with anything here! I would have put it off and put it off, but oh no, Wazza had to ask!
> 
> So, because I saw Wazza's post earlier and figured I'd get no peace on my own thread, yes, it is sorted.


Can't decide whether to reply with "All part of the service 'mam!" or "Now young lady, none of your backchat!!!"



Frostflower said:


> I explained how I had worked hard to tidy up and keep it tidy, etc. I told him my suggestion but did ask if he had another idea. He said mine was fine. (Yes!).


So this is a small victory for you? Yes?



Frostflower said:


> But then he got a bit defensive and said that he hadn't planned on leaving them there long. That's funny because that had been their home for months before he left.


Yeah, we are men. We aren't perfect. Basically just a brainless life support system for a p*nis with the emotions of a six year old. Get used to it 

Now, being more serious, and dredging out some history....



Frostflower said:


> He cried. I have never seen my H cry. He said that he had hurt everyone (I agreed). He said he wanted to try to rebuild what we had. To which I said, "I don't want what we had.". To my amazement ('cause I thought I'd have to explain what I meant), he said that he wanted it it be better than before.
> 
> I told him that I wanted to work on it too, but that I didn't think we could do it alone. I remarked that I knew how he felt about counselling, but *I thought we needed to go to MC. He said he would!!!*
> 
> ...


You've got a clear agreement from him there, and you are entitled to hold him to it if you want (assuming you have correctly reported what he said).

But the counselling isn't an issue, it's a tool to resolve the main issues. 

And you've also got to be careful not to back him into a corner. I'd start by talking about the issues you want to resolve, and ways to resolve them. For example, I think you can work on doing things together without a counsellor. That's easy. Communication can be harder but you can start looking for books, internet sites, etc, that might give you things to try.

Maybe you could ask him how he would solve the issues.

Here's the other question you need to think about. No marriage is perfect. What is your walk away point? If he refuses to go to counselling, are you in or out? 



Frostflower said:


> I mentioned that my counsellor would be happy to see us both for MC, but that he also suggested that R night be more comfortable with a different on. I said that either way was fine with me. This is where it got frustrating. He left the room and went and turned on the t.v. I had to bite my tongue not to call after him, "And this is why we need MC!"
> 
> I understand that this is an uncomfortable subject for him, but really?!!


You are learning to be more assertive, and it's a skill. My wife is similar and it's a bit like Jekyll and Hyde...she's either a doormat or a tiger. In this case my advice would be, you just won the battle of the panniers. Savour the victory. Sit and watch tv with him for a bit and have a nice time. Talk about the counselling later. 

He might be being defensive. Alternately he might have had a bad day. He's probably struggling with sexual frustration (which is not to say you should do anything before you are ready, but as a male it's very hard to be rational and not moody when I'm deprived). And maybe he knows that you guys are not good at discussing this stuff, and he's trying not to respond because he's worried that you will back down and cave in as soon as he raises an alternate perspective. I know I struggle with how to disagree with my wife and still discuss something. She simply is not as good at arguing her position as I am. It's a struggle for us.

Also, he's hurting too. Every time I say this on TAM I get yelled at but who cares....if his needs aren't met as well then you aren't solving the problem.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Can't decide whether to reply with "All part of the service 'mam!" or "Now young lady, none of your backchat!!!"
> 
> _While the 'young lady' part is appealing, go with the first one. Its more polite and we Canucks like polite._
> 
> ...


_I'm not yelling at you. You are right._


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Worried if you cave? In my case because I won the battle and lost the war.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Its been a while since I posted, but all is going well. Last night I asked R to put my engagement ring, which I'd been wearing on my right hand, onto the ring finger on my left. We are sharing a bed, but have not been intimate yet. I still have to work through the fact that he had sex with someone else and the 'is he comparing us?' thing. 

He agreed to MC before we stared 'dating', but it took a while to get him to decide whether he wanted to go to the therapist I'd been seeing (the only male in the outfit that is covered by my insurance) or a different one. He finally decided on the same one. Maybe the male aspect appealed to him. Since then, I've been so busy at work, I keep forgetting to make an appointment. Its not an avoidance thing. I usually get R to make my appointments because, once I get to school, I'm swamped and forget to do it. I'm not convinced he wouldn't keep forgetting this one! I will put a note on my phone to do it this coming week.

I learned something nice today. My brother and his wife are here for a visit and I spent the day with them and my parents. My SIL and I got to talk alone. She told me that she and my brother are worried about me, as are my parents. I was able to assure her that I am happy. I asked her if my folks had said anything about R and me getting back together. She told me that my dad had been furious with R, but seems okay now. I had been rather peeved with R because when my parents came over for the first time after he moved back in, I felt that he should apologize to them for the pain he had caused, but he didn't. Or so i thought. My SIL told me that he had (must have been when I was in the washroom). When my parents and he said goodbye, he hugged my Dad, then my Mum. My Mum seemed to hold onto him for quite a while, then pull away, then hug him agin. SIL told me it wasn't my Mum holding on. It was R. He hugged her tight, let go a bit then pulled her back into a hug. This was so nice to hear. Made me feel even closer to him.

We are trying to communicate more and to do things together. My daughter was very angry that I let him back and has been avoiding him. I think she is slowly (and I mean slowly) coming round. 

We went for lunch with my folks, brother and SIL, and my oldest. It was the first time our son has seen his dad since R left as he has been away working. When they said goodbye, my son reached for R and hugged him. 

So, so far so good!


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

That's a great update, Frost!! I'm so glad you got some happy surprises (the way R was with your parents).


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

How are things going Frosty?


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Hey, thinking about you ... hope things are going fine. Give us an update when you can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Hope it's going well FF. Are you enjoying the hockey? Did R take up knitting in return?


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

!!


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Yeah -- you're posting other places, but not your own thread. Hope everything's OK!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> How are things going Frosty?





Lifescript said:


> Hey, thinking about you ... hope things are going fine. Give us an update when you can.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Wazza said:


> Hope it's going well FF. Are you enjoying the hockey? Did R take up knitting in return?


Thank you all for caring. Its going well. I had been wearing my engagement ring on my right hand. A couple of weeks ago, I took it off and asked him to place it on my left hand. My wedding ring broke when I had it cut off, but I think, having read here on TAM that when others have reunited they have considered the old marriage dead and the renewed relationship a new marriage, I will just get a new one made. We can have both our rings melted down and new ones made. Not ready yet though. We're still working on things. I'm pretty sure we are solid , but I don't ever want to go through this again. I told R that I forgive him, but that if he ever does it again, we will be through.

He is being way more thoughtful. He even bought me flowers last week for no reason. Unheard of in the old marriage! We are doing something together every weekend.

We haven't been intimate yet. "She' gets in the way for me, but he is avoiding it too. I think he is worried about the ED.

My daughter is still having a hard time with him being back and my oldest is getting along with his father, but I think he can't figure out why I took him back.

I want to thank everyone here on TAM for your support these last few months. I don't know what I would have done without you. Its nice to know you all still care


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> Yeah -- you're posting other places, but not your own thread. Hope everything's OK!


Saw your post after I had posted, Angel! Thanks to you for your support too!

Sorry, Wazza, forgot to answer your question. No, R hasn't taken up knitting. That'd be the day!!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I just had a major trigger on the way home from a meeting. It was a meeting of the Special Ed Association, the same group whose meeting I was coming home from last Spring when I found out that R had left me. I have driven that route probably a hundred times since, but today it opened it all up again.

As I passed the point on the highway where I pulled over and had the phone conversation, I felt that same kicked-in-the-gut feeling I had experienced then. And, even though I kept telling myself, "We're back together", I cried the rest of the way.

He just got home and realized something was wrong. I started crying again and told him. He kissed me on the head and basically brushed it off. I know he doesn't deal well with emotional stuff, but I am hurting right now.

I know I need to tell him that his reaction made it hurt more. I know there are going to be more triggers and we need to get through them together. 

I hate this.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Sorry FF. It hurts.

It does hurt less as time goes by, and it happens less often.

To be honest, with my wife there isn't much she can say....when it happens it happens...the triggers hurt her because they remind her what she did wrong, and she can never undo it.

I love her, I do, but there are times when I think about what she did to me and I could just...... sigh, it sucks.


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## justabovewater (Jun 26, 2011)

Hi Frost,

I've read most of your journal and have tried to keep up with it. First congratulations on the R and best of luck to you and R. How awesome to have a second go.

I think men are, like you eluded to, not very fond of the emotional stuff. I think men hate it when we women cry. That may just be his way of dealing with it, only you know him that well. I wonder if he's just afraid "to go there again" like we like to do...I do anyway. I have such a hard time letting things go. I tend to rehash and over think everything. 

Maybe if you were to shelve the topic for right and revisit it with him in a day or two. Give yourself some time to process your emotions? Just a suggestion. I'm still so lost in this whole process, I'm probably not one to be giving any advice at all.

Hugs to you.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Hey FF, better day today?


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Hi FF, 

Thinking of you. Hope you had a better day today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thank you all. Yes, today was a better day. I talked to him again last night, explained how I felt and told him that it will likely happen again, that small things would trigger a similar reaction in me. He just held me tight for a while.

JAW, I tend to rehash things too, but I'm trying not to this time. It will happen more I guess, and I don't want to go through life rehashing and over-thinking. Its just hard. I had another small moment on the way home today, but swallowed it.

I have to deal with all these feelings, but I don't want to be constantly making him feel bad.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I coast along, everything great and then......bam! Something triggers it. This morning it was his shirt. He moved back in with some new shirts. I wondered if she had bought some of them for him, but pushed it aside in the rush of happiness that came back into my life along with him. This morning, as he bent over me to kiss me goodbye, I touched his biking shirt. Since he left an hour and a half ago, shirts and Her have been swirling in my head. A couple of tears, but mostly anger at OW. I know it takes two to have an affair, but right now I just feel so very angry at her. 

Great, here come the tears. 

My poor little dog. I took him for a walk and the anger made me walk faster and faster. The dog pooped out before we completed our usual route and refused to go any further.

I guess channeling the negative feelings is a good thing. I just wish I didn't have to have them.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I coast along, everything great and then......bam! Something triggers it. This morning it was his shirt. He moved back in with some new shirts. I wondered if she had bought some of them for him, but pushed it aside in the rush of happiness that came back into my life along with him. This morning, as he bent over me to kiss me goodbye, I touched his biking shirt. Since he left an hour and a half ago, shirts and Her have been swirling in my head. A couple of tears, but mostly anger at OW. I know it takes two to have an affair, but right now I just feel so very angry at her.
> 
> Great, here come the tears.
> 
> ...


Those tears are tears of healing, Frost.

Let them flow when you need to.

You sound like you are doing great.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

The emotions get better. Hang in there.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks. I am okay now. I did what any self-respecting woman would do when feeling down. I went shopping!

I guess these moments will happen . At least this one passed quickly.

R and I are doing okay. i feel much closer to him and I think he does to me. Still a lot of work ahead.

We still have not been intimate. At first I didn't want to rush things. Then a few times when we cuddled, I thought about the two of them together and pulled away. Those thoughts still make me feel sad and sick, but I think I can get past it. Only he does not seem interested. I think his history of ED is causing him to shy away. He has not been open to communicating about this. 

We haven't been to MC yet as he has been travelling with work a lot, but I brought it up the other day and he is still willing (not that it is optional as far as I'm concerned), so we will be going, hopefully this coming week. I told him that my goal for MC is that we learn how to communicate better. He agreed.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Good update.

Your profile still shows you as separated. Curious, is that how you think of yourself?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Good update.
> 
> Your profile still shows you as separated. Curious, is that how you think of yourself?


Not at all. Just never thought about my profile.

I'm confused. As we were cuddling in bed this morning, he took my hand and put it on his thigh close to....well, you know. Then when I started stroking his leg, he hopped out of bed to make tea. 

What the heck???


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Not at all. Just never thought about my profile.
> 
> I'm confused. As we were cuddling in bed this morning, he took my hand and put it on his thigh close to....well, you know. Then when I started stroking his leg, he hopped out of bed to make tea.
> 
> What the heck???


Showing you he is more than about "that".

His way of rebuilding your respect for him.

Don't over think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

spun said:


> Showing you he is more than about "that".
> 
> His way of rebuilding your respect for him.
> 
> ...


Telling me not to over think it is like telling a rain cloud not to rain.

if he didn't want it to go further, why put my hand there?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza, my profile is now changed, so you can stop over thinking it!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Wazza, my profile is now changed, so you can stop over thinking it!


Whew....wondered if there had been a setback in reconciliation. I know he is refusing knitting lessons, but still, hang in there!


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Hey Frosty.

How ya been?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Hi Up! Its good. We're plodding along. No great strides, but steady progress. We are both more loving toward each other than we had been for a long time before all this happened. So, although I would much prefer it hadn't happened, some good has come of it.

The feelings that rush back when triggers happen are extremely painful, but I guess that's par for the course.

We still have not been intimate. i discussed this with our doctor and he said that he would bring up the subject of ED next time he saw R. (He's treated him for it, so it would be a natural question for him to ask.) R saw the doctor yesterday, but of course, I can't ask about it without telling him that I raised the subject with our doctor. 

Our daughter still struggles. She finds it difficult to be around him, although I think it is slowly improving. She actually talks to him occasionally. On the other hand, I suggested yesterday that she ask him to help her with her math and her response was, "I'm not gonna ask him for help." Sigh.

Thanks for asking, Up. Its so nice to know that people still care about me.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Good to hear it is progressing. 

Give your daughter time...he left her too after all. She will work through it all.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Hi Wazza. Sure hope you're right. He makes out like it doesn't bother him, but it must. I would think it must remind him of what he did every time she snubs him or talks rudely to him.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Hi Up! Its good. We're plodding along. No great strides, but steady progress. We are both more loving toward each other than we had been for a long time before all this happened. So, although I would much prefer it hadn't happened, some good has come of it.
> 
> The feelings that rush back when triggers happen are extremely painful, but I guess that's par for the course.
> 
> ...


All you can do is suggest Frosty.

The response is out of your control.

Slow and steady when it comes to making this a stable future.

At the same time, do not diminish your feelings of which you are and are not okay with.

Regardless of the positive success, you still come first.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Hi Wazza. Sure hope you're right. He makes out like it doesn't bother him, but it must. I would think it must remind him of what he did every time she snubs him or talks rudely to him.


I am a dad with a daughter. Yes I am sure it hurts him. But I am also sure she will come around in time.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks for the encouragement, both of you.

Up, how are you doing? I can't find your thread.

How are things are going well with you, Wazza.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Thanks for the encouragement, both of you.
> 
> Up, how are you doing? I can't find your thread.
> 
> How are things are going well with you, Wazza.


Isn't that always the case when you come back after a while Frosty? :rofl:

I'm doing great. Thanks


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Thanks for the encouragement, both of you.
> 
> Up, how are you doing? I can't find your thread.
> 
> How are things are going well with you, Wazza.


Just fine, thanks for asking.

Didn't sleep well last night, a sad thread on tam upset me a bit. I like happy threads like yours!!!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> Isn't that always the case when you come back after a while Frosty? :rofl:
> 
> Ya, do you do that on purpose? "Oh, Frosty hasn't been around for a while. I'll move my thread on her. Heh, heh, heh!!"
> 
> I'm doing great. Thanks


 You aren't going to tell me where it is, are you??

Glad you're doing well. And the kids?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Just fine, thanks for asking.
> 
> Didn't sleep well last night, a sad thread on tam upset me a bit. I like happy threads like yours!!!


It is overall a happy thread. But some people are mean to me! (Still reading, Up?)


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> You aren't going to tell me where it is, are you??
> 
> Glad you're doing well. And the kids?


I find that when I have a thread, I tend to lose control more than anything.

So I eliminated it.

Although, recently I have wanted to get them revived (especially my first 2 threads) so it could help others.

Been talking to admins, do not think it's possible sadly.

The children are doing good. They are with me for another week.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnOver said:


> I find that when I have a thread, I tend to lose control more than anything.
> 
> So I eliminated it.
> 
> ...


You lose control of your thread? Or yourself?

So, you've joined me in being threadless?


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Two wise men, Master Po and young Grasshopper, floating high in the nether mists, swooping down to alight on the posts of the troubled, bestowing blessed gifts of solace and support to those in pain.

Too bad about your thread, Up. Blogaroo was the best thread name ever!


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Two wise men, Master Po and young Grasshopper, floating high in the nether mists, swooping down to alight on the posts of the troubled, bestowing blessed gifts of solace and support to those in pain.
> 
> Too bad about your thread, Up. Blogaroo was the best thread name ever!


When he and I first started exchanging thoughts, it was clear he thought I was from another planet.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You lose control of your thread? Or yourself?
> 
> So, you've joined me in being threadless?



Of myself.

I know who to get ahold of if I have issues.




Frostflower said:


> Two wise men, Master Po and young Grasshopper, floating high in the nether mists, swooping down to alight on the posts of the troubled, bestowing blessed gifts of solace and support to those in pain.
> 
> Too bad about your thread, Up. Blogaroo was the best thread name ever!


Haha thanks Frosty.

The thing is, I really feel no need to say or discuss how I feel I've "figured it out".

Which I may have to thank De Mello for.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> When he and I first started exchanging thoughts, it was clear he thought I was from another planet.


You are. The Planet Conrad. A very special place. Only one inhabitant. A very special person.

Haha thanks Frosty.

The thing is, I really feel no need to say or discuss how I feel I've "figured it out".

Which I may have to thank De Mello for.
Today 09:23 AM

Just so long as you let us know how you're doing once in a while.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> You are. The Planet Conrad. A very special place. Only one inhabitant. A very special person.
> 
> Haha thanks Frosty.
> 
> ...


I feel great 

There are a lot of positives ahead of me.

That which is to come, I can only control on my end. Everything else, so be it.

And, I found something I thought I never could.

With that, the possibilities are endless and unpredictable.

Yet, very very exciting.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

She was sent to teach you this.

You've learned it now.

Enjoy your life.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> *She* was sent to teach you this.
> 
> You've learned it now.
> 
> Enjoy your life.


Hey now.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnOver said:


> Hey now.


And, you got two wonderful little souvenirs as a side benefit to those lessons SHE taught you.

You would never have made this progress without the heartbreak.

And, you know it.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm kind of coming to the same conclusion about my life. I want to regret my marriage, but I can't because without it, I wouldn't have my son. And also, I know now, that I wouldn't have gotten to this place without the journey through the seven layers of hell that was my marriage and break-up and ongoing recovery.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

angelpixie said:


> I'm kind of coming to the same conclusion about my life. I want to regret my marriage, but I can't because without it, I wouldn't have my son. And also, I know now, that I wouldn't have gotten to this place without the journey through the seven layers of hell that was my marriage and break-up and ongoing recovery.


All of that is true.

It brings a measure of peace inside, doesn't it?


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

I think I miss understood at first.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnOver said:


> I think I miss understood at first.


Yes, you did.

No worries.

Perhaps a more appropriate response would have been, "Who?"


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Good grief, so much activity from the old regulars on this thread. Just like old times. If only we could all share a virtual beer or something 

Just keep plugging away FF.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Yes, you did.
> 
> No worries.
> 
> Perhaps a more appropriate response would have been, "Who?"


These wrists will never be shackled again.

Unless it's to a bed post.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Oh, rilly?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> Oh, rilly?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


=)


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> These wrists will never be shackled again.
> 
> Unless it's to a bed post.


My thread is turning into a 'Fifty Shades' knock-off!


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> My thread is turning into a 'Fifty Shades' knock-off!


UpnDown became UpnOver....

Next phase, "UpnIn"?


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> UpnDown became UpnOver....
> 
> Next phase, "UpnIn"?


This.

Is full of win.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> UpnDown became UpnOver....
> 
> Next phase, "UpnIn"?


Sigh. Just change the title of the thread to 'Frostflower's Porn Place'.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Sigh. Just change the title of the thread to 'Frostflower's Porn Place'.


Haha.

Sorry Frosty.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

You can always bring it to my thread. It's been too serious lately. Actually about my real life & stuff. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

R just left on a five-day work trip. Sitting on the stairs watching him put his shoes and jacket, I had a flashback to the first time he came back to the house after he left me. When he was getting ready to leave again, I sat on the top step crying quietly as he put his shoes on. He barely glanced up, said 'goodbye' and left. Watching him today brought it all back and I had to fight back tears. They're back now that I'm writing about it. 

Even though this parting was very different and even though I know he'll be back this time, I still felt some of the pain of the other time. Guess there's nothing I can do about moments like this other than live through them.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Sorry for the hurt you're feeling, Frost. Just know that from now on, you'll be having better memories to crowd out those old bad ones. They'll fade over time.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

It gets better. It really does. Time heals.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

You got this Frosty.

Allow yourself the time to feel it.

Then love yourself enough to move on from it.


----------



## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

How are you doing today Frosty?


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Hermes said:


> How are you doing today Frosty?


What a wonderful place this is where people care enough to ask how you're doing!

I'm fine thanks, Hermes. It was just another little bump in the road. R has been texting me every day which he never used to do when he was away. Last night I had a brief flash of pain when I moved his pillow over next to me. When he was with OW, I used to hold his pillow and cry. Last night I just wanted it closer, but it reminded me of those awful months. I re-read yesterday's texts and the hurt passed.

On a different note, I gave the name of this forum to one of my Ed. Assistants yesterday. Her son is going through a painful breakup with his girlfriend and is is really rough shape. I hesitated at first because I know she will check the forum out before giving the info to her son and there is a small chance she might stumble on my thread and recognize me. But her son is suffering so very much and I know this is where he needs to be, among you wonderful people. I hope she follows through.


----------



## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> You can always bring it to my thread. It's been too serious lately. Actually about my real life & stuff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I fixed that for ya


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Had a meeting this afternoon at the school I was coming home from when I found out that R had left. This school is forever going to be my Achilles heel. This morning, I had a medical appointment in the same town as the school, and as I turned onto the highway, singing along happily with the radio, it occurred to me where I would be later. And, wham! Tears. 

I kept repeating to myself, "Its okay. He's back with me", but couldn't stop crying until I was almost at the doctor's.

What the heck?!!


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Drive there every day for a month. The feelings wear off with time.


----------



## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

I like Wazza's suggestion. 

Been dealing with similar stuff Frosty. When things are going good, BAM! 

It get's better. I takes time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I'm way behind responding to the suggestion. Sorry. I drive that route all the time as my parents live near the school and I never have a problem. It's the school that does it. If I am going there, it all comes back. Fortunately, I don't have to go there that often.

I want to share this cute quote I saw this morning in the lab where I went to have routine blood work done. They have a bulletin board full of cartoons and quotes. I guess the idea is to take your mind off the blood draining out of your veins. Here it is:

In case you don't know it, women fly.

If someone breaks our wings, 

we simply continue to fly.....

on broomsticks.

We're flexible that way.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I'm way behind responding to the suggestion. Sorry. I drive that route all the time as my parents live near the school and I never have a problem. It's the school that does it. If I am going there, it all comes back. Fortunately, I don't have to go there that often.
> 
> I want to share this cute quote I saw this morning in the lab where I went to have routine blood work done. They have a bulletin board full of cartoons and quotes. I guess the idea is to take your mind off the blood draining out of your veins. Here it is:
> 
> ...


You are behind. Not like you....I was beginning to think you didn't like me any more! Sob, sob.....

Hope all is well. 

After all you have been through, only to come out smiling, it would be a brave person who would even attempt to break your wings or otherwise mess with you!

You are doing great FF...keep it up.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> You are behind. Not like you....I was beginning to think you didn't like me any more! Sob, sob.....
> 
> Hope all is well.
> 
> ...


Not like you anymore after all the support you have given me, Wazza? That would just never happen!

All is well, thank you for asking. R is out of town visiting his mother. I am happily left behind! Oh, dear, was that nasty of me?


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Just want to wish all my friends on TAM a wonderful Christmas. I know this isn't a happy time for so many here, but I hope each of you finds some peace on this blessed day.

Thank you all for the support you gave me in my time of need.

Hugs.

Frostflower


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Merry Christmas, FF!


----------



## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Merry xmas frosty! All the best for you.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frosty!!

xoxo


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Bah humbug.

Just kidding. Merry Christmas. Hope Father Christmas brings you something nice.


----------



## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Merry Christmas, Frost.

Hugs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thank you all!

He already did, Wazza......all my friends here at TAM.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I am so sad. My daughter and I just returned from getting a pedicure. She had given me a gift card for my birthday a few months ago, and we finally went. Afterward we went for coffee. I had wanted to tell her that a Christmas gift she got which was labeled from both her Dad and me had actually been bought by her Dad. It was a fleece throw and a matching cushion which is the same color as her new duvet. He had obviously thought about it and gone looking for one. The gift tag said it was from both of us and I wanted her to know that he had gotten it for her. Her response? 

"So what?"

This led to a spiel about how he thinks he can just move back in and everything's okay. It's not okay and she doesn't have to be nice to him. I talked about forgiveness. She feels that I forgave him too easily. That she is stronger than me in that area. I said that at least she shouldn't be rude to him. Her response was why not as he is rude to me (me, not her) all the time. He's not, so I don't know where that came from. I asked her to elaborate, but she wouldn't. 

In the past R had a habit of putting me down. But since he has been back, things have been much better. There have only been two incidences where I felt that way. I know for sure she wasn't present during one of them and I can't remember about the second. Overall he has been very respectful. So I don't know why she would say that.

She said everything will never be all right.

I know his leaving affected her. Not only did it hurt her, but she saw my pain. Why can't she see my happiness?

I know it's only been four months since he came back, but now it just feels like its hopeless. Like we're never going to achieve closeness as a family.

All the pleasure went out of the outing and the mother-daughter time.


----------



## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Talk to her. Tell her you have forgiven him and you understand she is mad at him but you want her to give him a chance to win her back. 

It's a tricky situation. She is very mad because she saw your pain. So in a way she's looking out for you because she loves you. How old is she? This can be expected from a teenager, not so much an adult.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> Talk to her. Tell her you have forgiven him and you understand she is mad at him but you want her to give him a chance to win her back.
> 
> It's a tricky situation. She is very mad because she saw your pain. So in a way she's looking out for you because she loves you. How old is she? This can be expected from a teenager, not so much an adult.


Thanks, Script. I will try talking to her again, but not today. I had to fight back tears in the coffee shop and they are still too close to the surface.

She is 19. 

I guess she is conflicted. She bought him a picture for Christmas, a sailboat taken at sunset. When he opened it, she said that it reminded her of a trip the family took a few years ago on a sailboat. I thought it was touching that she made that connection and got the picture for him.

R had also bought a couple of pairs of Christmas earrings and put one pair in each of our stockings. The kids know that I do the stockings. When I told her that the earrings were from him and that it would mean a lot to him if she wore them (not her taste!), she put them on.

I don't know. Is it true that time heals all wounds? Or is this wound too deep?


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I am so sad. My daughter and I just returned from getting a pedicure. She had given me a gift card for my birthday a few months ago, and we finally went. Afterward we went for coffee. I had wanted to tell her that a Christmas gift she got which was labeled from both her Dad and me had actually been bought by her Dad. It was a fleece throw and a matching cushion which is the same color as her new duvet. He had obviously thought about it and gone looking for one. The gift tag said it was from both of us and I wanted her to know that he had gotten it for her. Her response?
> 
> "So what?"
> 
> ...


There are a lot of assumptions from both ends in this.

Words put in each others mouth.

This will cause nothing but defensive mode.



Frostflower said:


> Thanks, Script. I will try talking to her again, but not today. I had to fight back tears in the coffee shop and they are still too close to the surface.
> 
> She is 19.
> 
> ...


Your daughter is 19.

Old enough to make her own decisions, yes.

Also old enough to think she grasps everything.

She's seen a lot.

But has not lived a lot.

Establish what you want and leave it open for discussion if she ever wants to.

Her relationship between R and herself is exactly that.

Between them.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Hey FF, my suggestion is not to make too much of this.

From my own experiences, kids at that age are not mature in relationships, and they need to learn. So you are doing the right thing being a role model, and as your daughter grows she will figure things out more. In fact, I would consider your day VERY well spent, because you had a very honest conversation. You are a smart cookie. If she is equally smart, she will be thinking about what was said.

Also, you already knew that when R betrayed you he betrayed his kids as well. Just as it is taking time for you to work through things and reconcile, it's the same for them. Your daughter has to come to it in her own way, and her own time. All of us who have been betrayed have to work through how much to trust the one who betrayed us. You need to let her do that.

Later, when she understands how hard life can be, and that it is not like a Hollywood movie, she will perhaps understand R's failing better. 

My belief is that it will all be good, but it will take time.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks, Up and Wazza. I know you're both right. I just want everything to be all right.

It's bad enough that its not all right for me. I lost the complete trust I had in R. I'm sitting here grappling with it now. He went to get his bike serviced hours ago. He's still not back. The bike place is in the town where OW lives. I'm sure it's just taking a long time withe the bike, but.......

If I don't trust, how can I expect my daughter to?

I hate this. So much.l


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Thanks, Up and Wazza. I know you're both right. I just want everything to be all right.
> 
> It's bad enough that its not all right for me. I lost the complete trust I had in R. I'm sitting here grappling with it now. He went to get his bike serviced hours ago. He's still not back. The bike place is in the town where OW lives. I'm sure it's just taking a long time withe the bike, but.......
> 
> ...


When he comes back, tell him. Talk about it. Don't let it fester.

I hate it too. My wife is a wonderful person. You should meet her, I think you would like her. But there will always be this niggle in the back of my head. Sad.

Mind you, if I changed horses, I am sure I would have the same niggle with the next one.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> When he comes back, tell him. Talk about it. Don't let it fester.
> 
> I hate it too. My wife is a wonderful person. You should meet her, I think you would like her. But there will always be this niggle in the back of my head. Sad.
> 
> Mind you, if I changed horses, I am sure I would have the same niggle with the next one.


I followed your advice, Wazza. Talking to R about anything to do with emotions is incredibly difficult. I told him that i had worried because I know the bike she is not far from where she lives. His initial reaction came across as almost laughing at me. I told him that it was hard for me to talk about this and not to make fun of how I felt. I said I can't help worrying , that I am trying to trust him. The only thing he said was, "Stop worrying".

Then he got up and changed the subject.

I can only hope that I have given him something to think about.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I followed your advice, Wazza. Talking to R about *anything to do with emotions is incredibly difficult*. I told him that i had worried because I know the bike she is not far from where she lives. *His initial reaction came across as almost laughing at me*. I told him that it was hard for me to talk about this and not to make fun of how I felt. I said I can't help worrying , that I am trying to trust him. The only thing he said was, "*Stop worrying*".
> 
> Then he got up and changed the subject.
> 
> I can only *hope* that I have given him something to think about.


Are you okay with this?


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> Are you okay with this?


Not totally, Up. But believe it or not, this is progress. In the past, knowing how he is with emotional issues, I would have just kept it all inside me and he would never have known how I felt. At least now he knows. 

We have a long way to go in our journey toward better communication, but at least we are on the journey. I know it's up to me to keep it going. And I will.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Not totally, Up. But believe it or not, this is progress. In the past, knowing how he is with emotional issues, I would have just kept it all inside me and he would never have known how I felt. At least now he knows.
> 
> We have a long way to go in our journey toward better communication, but at least we are on the journey. I know it's up to me to keep it going. And I will.


Well done.

Indeed it is progress. My wife is similar, but she is now able to admit it comes from her guilt. We still struggle to talk.

We have been over 20 years in reconciliation and still have work to do. Now partly I am a slow learner....but you haven't been 20 weeks yet.

Be more patient. And swear more, it helps. Maybe at me if i keep this up


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Well done.
> 
> Indeed it is progress. My wife is similar, but she is now able to admit it comes from her guilt. We still struggle to talk.
> 
> ...


Still trying to get me to swear. You are persistent! I won't swear at you, but I do have this little Wazza doll and a package of pins.

I think you hit the nail on the head. It is hard for R to deal with emotion, but now I think it is compounded by guilt.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

How ya doin Frosty?


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Hey FF, no answer to Up...are you ok? Should we be worried?


----------



## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

frosty, does he know you need him to be understanding of your feelings and reassure you as necessary for your own healing? It sounded like he was dismissive when he said stop worrying. Trying to rug sweep maybe? It might be progress but he needs to up his game imo. And its not all up to you, he should be doing a bit more heavy lifting. Remind him these are not optional, you need him to put you first because of what he's put you through. 

Is he in IC? Sorry not read your whole thread. I think his perceived need to protect or hide his feelings is not acceptable f you're to have a proper R.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Hi Up, Wazza and Chopsy. Sorry I haven't answered before, Up. Everything is fine. I honestly couldn't think of anything to say! We're good. I'm happy. 

Up and Chopsy, you're right. We do have work to do, but things are better between us. Chopsy, although it seemed hurtful at the time, looking back, don't think he was being dismissive. I think it actually was his way of telling me there is nothing to worry about, that he is no longer involved with OW. And he left the room because he was embarrassed. Maybe t sounds as if I am making excuses for him (and I could be wrong), but I've been with him long enough to know what he's like around emotion. 

No, he's not in IC. He would never go. I am going to go myself to try and learn how to help him open up.

Thanks for caring


----------



## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm happy for you Frosty. Take care!


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I've forgotten, FF -- are you two in MC if he's not going to IC himself?


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Its been quite a while since I posted here. Things are continuing to evolve in a good direction. I thought a lot about MC. R was extremely anxious about it so, although I know he would go if I insisted, I decided to try something else. I picked up a book on improving your marriage and told him that we could work through it and do the exercises or go to MC and f the book didn’t help, then we would go to MC. He agreed (with much relief). So we read a bit each day together. We’re not at the exercises yet, but it looks promising.

My daughter has been the main challenge. I had planned a family dinner at a restaurant to celebrate R’s birthday and she had refused to go. But in the end, whether she changed her mind on her own or my son talked to her, she did go. We had a really nice time with my oldest and his girlfriend, DD, me and R. I missed our other son who is still working in another province, but after dinner we went to the our son’s condo and had a conference call with him, which was nice.

I still experience downs when triggered, sometimes by the smallest thing, but overall I am happy. I look at R and am so thankful that we are having this second chance. If this whole thing has taught me anything it is that I don’t need him. That sounds odd considering that I am happy we are together, but I don’t. I learned that I can take care of myself. I don’t need him. I want him. And he is here.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

very good news, FF. I like that you are both still working on things, even if it isn't 'official' MC. And I'm really glad you all had a nice dinner for R's birthday. Thanks for the update!


----------



## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

*Re: Re: Frostflower's journal*



Frostflower said:


> Its been quite a while since I posted here. Things are continuing to evolve in a good direction. I thought a lot about MC. R was extremely anxious about it so, although I know he would go if I insisted, I decided to try something else. I picked up a book on improving your marriage and told him that we could work through it and do the exercises or go to MC and f the book didn’t help, then we would go to MC. He agreed (with much relief). So we read a bit each day together. We’re not at the exercises yet, but it looks promising.
> 
> My daughter has been the main challenge. I had planned a family dinner at a restaurant to celebrate R’s birthday and she had refused to go. But in the end, whether she changed her mind on her own or my son talked to her, she did go. We had a really nice time with my oldest and his girlfriend, DD, me and R. I missed our other son who is still working in another province, but after dinner we went to the our son’s condo and had a conference call with him, which was nice.
> 
> I still experience downs when triggered, sometimes by the smallest thing, but overall I am happy. I look at R and am so thankful that we are having this second chance. If this whole thing has taught me anything it is that I don’t need him. That sounds odd considering that I am happy we are together, but I don’t. I learned that I can take care of myself. I don’t need him. I want him. And he is here.


Glad things are going ok FF. Once you let them go and realize you don't need them, things begin to change, become clearer.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Glad it is going well. Keep going!


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Keep on keeping on Frosty.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> Keep on keeping on Frosty.


Lol....I can never get used to her as "Frosty"....she seems to be such a warm and caring person from her posts.


----------



## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

She's frosty as in super sweet sugar frosting, not cold frosty.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

NoWhere said:


> She's frosty as in super sweet sugar frosting, not cold frosty.


Very smooth!!!!!

Watch this one Frosty, he's a charmer!


----------



## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Who cares about the cold. Frosty is chocolaty goodness in a cup...well now there is vanilla top...but hey...the cold is part of the charm.


----------



## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

uh oh I think I started something... again.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

NoWhere said:


> She's frosty as in super sweet sugar frosting, not cold frosty.


Oh, you are a *sweet* talker, aren't you?


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

The true meaning behind it was just a catchy little nickname. But around these parts, we are pretty good at making things into something they are not.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Aww, you guys! What a bunch of sweeties. And I didn’t even have to offer a wet T-shirt picture to Wazza and NoWhere to get such accolades from them!

The true meaning of it, Daddio, is explained earlier in my thread in a response to a question from Wazza Still love those pictures, Wazza!


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Frostflower's journal*



Frostflower said:


> Aww, you guys! What a bunch of sweeties. And I didn’t even have to offer a wet T-shirt picture to Wazza and NoWhere to get such accolades from them!
> 
> The true meaning of it, Daddio, is explained earlier in my thread in a response to a question from Wazza Still love those pictures, Wazza!


Oh Frosty. I heart you. I've been calling you Frosty since you started giving me crap all those months ago.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I gave you cr_ _?? You must have me confused with someone else. NoWhere or Wazza maybe? They are both quite nefarious.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I gave you cr_ _?? You must have me confused with someone else. NoWhere or Wazza maybe? They are both quite nefarious.


Read my new thread Frosty!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Aww, you guys! What a bunch of sweeties. And I didn’t even have to offer a wet T-shirt picture to Wazza and NoWhere to get such accolades from them!
> 
> The true meaning of it, Daddio, is explained earlier in my thread in a response to a question from Wazza Still love those pictures, Wazza!


Actually I still have the wet t shirt pics you PMed me a while back.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Actually I still have the wet t shirt pics you PMed me a while back.


Just kidding


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Okay, I did give you cr_ _, Daddio. But you have dished it out to me just as well if not better!

And, jeez, Wazza!! That was supposed to be our little secret!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Hey now - what is wrong with a little wet t-shirt as a thank you?!?!?!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Hey now - what is wrong with a little wet t-shirt as a thank you?!?!?!


Nothing. Now if I can get you and Frostflower both in wet t shirts, how do you feel about mud wrestling?

TAM is definitely looking up, yessiree!!!!!!!!



Sorry Frosty, I'll stop perverting your otherwise classy thread now. Back to WorkingAtIt's thread where it's always racy!!!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Okay, WAI, see what you’ve started!! Now he wants mud wrestling. 

Only if you put on a Speedo and join us, Wazza!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

LMAO! For Wazza I would do anything!!!!!!!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> LMAO! For Wazza I would do anything!!!!!!!


Me too, WAI. Me too.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Now where did I put my Speedo.....


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

In a post on someone else’s thread, I mentioned my detachment from my H prior to our separation. Someone I respect asked me about it. I realized that my answer is part of my story, so I have decided to post it here:


The detachment. Have I not mentioned it before? If not, it was an oversight, that’s all. I am surprisingly not ashamed of it, although I do wish it hadn’t happened. It was self-preservation. I was living with a drug-addicted son who was bleeding us dry financially and emotionally, a daughter who was not nice to her Dad and often disrespectful of me, a house that had been a mess due to renos and years of depression and lack of energy on both my part and his, and a husband whose depression was not under control and who was detaching from the family. I don’t blame him for that. It was self-preservation on his part. And me? I couldn’t detach from the kids. Someone had to be there emotionally. So I began detaching from the person who was detaching from me. It was obvious from the way he spoke to me and pulled away physically that he was leaving emotionally. I don’t think he even liked me much any more. I was beginning to not like him. Sometimes I even thought about leaving. But I knew I wouldn’t. I knew I would always be there for him as he would be for me.

So, when I look back, perhaps I shouldn’t have been so shell-shocked when he left. Maybe an outsider looking in could have predicted what happened. I didn’t.

When he left, I thought it was due to all the stress. I still believe that. In fact, when we talked before he moved back in, he said that it was never about me. I thought that he needed time away....I know I did! I honestly believed that he would come back. In the depths of my despair I never thought there was someone else. He couldn’t.....wouldn’t do that.


And the last part that I copied is missing. Part Two to follow!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Part Two:


But he did.

She came along when he was extremely vulnerable and she offered him a refuge. I believe he moved into her house to get away and the involvement came later.

When I am not feeling nice, I think of her as a calculating, manipulative ***** (and there goes your image of me) who saw a good thing and took it. When i am feeling nice I don’t think of her.

His job. Yes, that was part of what was weighing on him. He was (is) fed up with all the bureaucracy. He doesn’t enjoy the travel. If he could retire tomorrow, I know he would. 

Our daughter? Well, its coming. He bought her chocolates for Valentine’s Day and a gift at Christmas just from him. He has never done anything like that before. I’ve always done that sort of small stuff. I suppose its his way of finding a way ‘in’. She can’t be bought, but I think she is coming around slowly on her own. R bought me a lovely heart pendant for Valentine’s Day. When I showed her, all she said was, ‘Awwww!’, but it was in an ‘isn’t that sweet of the old folks’ sort of way. A couple of months ago, it would have evoked an disgusted ‘Why?’ and the implied statement would have been that he was buying my affection. 

Things are good. I‘m happier than I’ve been in a long time and, from what I see, so is he.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower,

You do realize the people that go through this are actually the lucky ones.

It's a chance to connect - truly connect - with ourselves.

Congrats.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Frostflower,
> 
> You do realize the people that go through this are actually the lucky ones.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Conrad. Its one heck of a way to get there, but I do feel more connected with myself and I am at peace. 

That doesn’t mean that insecurities don’t raise their ugly heads from time to time and it doesn’t mean we can stop working on our relationship. 

But it is good.

I wish the same for you and Janie.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Thank you, Conrad. Its one heck of a way to get there, but I do feel more connected with myself and I am at peace.
> 
> That doesn’t mean that insecurities don’t raise their ugly heads from time to time and it doesn’t mean we can stop working on our relationship.
> 
> ...


Thanks.

We are doing well.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Thanks.
> 
> We are doing well.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Have recently read your whole thread through. I have so much admiration for how you demonstrated such strength and integrity. I know you may not have felt that strong at times, but your actions showed your strength. So glad you're back together, hope he continues to deserve you.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Hope all is well Frosty!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Chopsy said:


> Have recently read your whole thread through. I have so much admiration for how you demonstrated such strength and integrity. I know you may not have felt that strong at times, but your actions showed your strength. So glad you're back together, hope he continues to deserve you.


Thanks, Chopsy. Sometimes I think it was all just a bad dream, then I feel the pain again and I know it wasn’t. Other times I think this is the dream and I will wake up and he will be gone.



06Daddio08 said:


> Hope all is well Frosty!


All is well, thanks Up.  I am inspired by your new thread.


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

And I am inspired by yours Frost.

Not that I see reconciliation in my case, but peace. I'm glad you have found it.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Glad to hear all is well Frosty!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Yesterday something happened which reminded me that, although she has been out of our lives for six months, OW is still out there. 

I answered the phone and the person on the other end asked for R. I said that he wasn’t home and asked to take a message. The caller said they would call him at work, to which I said that he was likely on his way home. She stammered her way through the next part:

“I’m calling from the...uh...Ministry of Children and Families. He has been...um...talking to the Ministry about (insert name of OW) and I...uh...want to ask him some questions.”

I asked if there was a number so that he could call back. 

“Uh...I’ll call him tomorrow.”


Well, there is not much chance that a government agency would call at 5:10 on a Friday afternoon. There is no chance that a social worker (who would make these calls) would disclose that someone had made a call to the Ministry. There is no chance that a social worker would reveal the name of the person being investigated to a fourth party. And there is little chance that a social worker would call on a Saturday to follow up on a non-critical case.

It was OW.

I felt sick. R arrived home minutes later. I asked him if he had called the Ministry for any reason. He sounded surprised and said no. I told him about the call. By then I was shaking. He came over and held me tight.

So, someone has reported her and she assumed it was R. Its 7p.m. the next day and she hasn’t called back. Wonder if she’ll wait and call him at work on Monday.

Now I not only know her first name which she put in one of her stupid emails, but I know her last one too. I don’t want to know anything about her. God forgive me, but I want her to fall off the face of the earth.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Classic hoovering attempt! She's missing your husband and will be ramping up her attempts until she get's what she wants. I know exactly how to handle this one. 

If you want to keep her from calling you guys again I suggest you get Trapcall services which will unblock her block numbers and every call will be recorded for legal reasons. It's been years since I used there services, but they did keep a stalker ex off my back. Unmask Blocked Calls - TrapCall Just make sure you cancle in time because these services can be as expensive as some cable services.

You know one of the other tactics you could try to get the OW to leave your husband alone is to simply have him call her and magically turn into a wimp not even she would want. Have him tell her how all his hopes and dreams are dead and that he's depressed now(all said in tears and way too much to drink). And then do it every single day for at least a couple of weeks while you're in the room listening. The OW will drop him in a heartbeat when she thinks he's not worth it anymore. And before you argue that no contact is better, just think about it...... I mean she only wants your husband based off of an idealized fansasy image, you kill the fantasy and you kill the attraction.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Was a NC letter ever sent?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> Classic hoovering attempt! She's missing your husband and will be ramping up her attempts until she get's what she wants. I know exactly how to handle this one.
> 
> If you want to keep her from calling you guys again I suggest you get Trapcall services which will unblock her block numbers and every call will be recorded for legal reasons. It's been years since I used there services, but they did keep a stalker ex off my back. Unmask Blocked Calls - TrapCall Just make sure you cancle in time because these services can be as expensive as some cable services.
> 
> You know one of the other tactics you could try to get the OW to leave your husband alone is to simply have him call her and magically turn into a wimp not even she would want. Have him tell her how all his hopes and dreams are dead and that he's depressed now(all said in tears and way too much to drink). And then do it every single day for at least a couple of weeks while you're in the room listening. The OW will drop him in a heartbeat when she thinks he's not worth it anymore. And before you argue that no contact is better, just think about it...... I mean she only wants your husband based off of an idealized fansasy image, you kill the fantasy and you kill the attraction.


Those are good ideas to file away in case she persists. At this point, I think someone has reported her and she thinks it was R. He did tell me when we were reconciling that she wasn’t the greatest of parents. She did nothing around the house and didn’t even prepare meals for the kids. 

I guess we’ll see if this is it or if, after all this time, she is coming after him.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> Was a NC letter ever sent?


No. But there hasn’t been a peep since he came back.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

So what you're telling me is that she...... sucks. She can never replace you and isn't even an option anymore. And if you do those things that she wouldn't do your reconciliated marriage will continue to be great.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

*Re: Re: Frostflower's journal*



Frostflower said:


> No. But there hasn’t been a peep since he came back.


It may be time.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> It may be time.


Time for her to reappear?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> So what you're telling me is that she...... sucks. She can never replace you and isn't even an option anymore. And if you do those things that she wouldn't do your reconciliated marriage will continue to be great.


I don’t believe she has been an option since R came back.

If I do those things she wouldn’t do.....I don’t know or want to know what she would or wouldn’t do. All I do know from the little R has said is that she wasn’t a great housekeeper or parent. That’s why I wasn’t surprised that someone reported her. 

But, whatever she was, I don’t need to base my marriage on it. I am who I am and R loves me.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> Time for her to reappear?


Time for a no contact (NC) letter from your H.

Glad your doing well FF in spite of this little hiccup.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

From what I have learned of R in the forums, I genuinely believe he is an honourable guy who made a terrible choice. I don't understand the pressures that led to that choice, but if you go back over FF's threads (and I did at one point) there is a lot of evidence of this.

But FF, you know him best.

I would tell him what you are feeling so that he knows how to be supportive of you. But I would be very surprised if she could reel him back in, though I have little doubt that was her agenda.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

*Re: Re: Frostflower's journal*



Tron said:


> Time for a no contact (NC) letter from your H.
> 
> Glad your doing well FF in spite of this little hiccup.


Yes. This is what I meant.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Food on you Frosty. Head high. 

I agree it's time for him to openly and demonstrably sink her.

I'd be too worried about how/when/if she is contacting him where you can't see otherwise. Even if he was being 100% honorable now, I think any doubt would fester.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> From what I have learned of R in the forums, I genuinely believe he is an honourable guy who made a terrible choice. I don't understand the pressures that led to that choice, but if you go back over FF's threads (and I did at one point) there is a lot of evidence of this.


Sorry, trying to follow along, I didn't realize FF's husband was on TAM. What's his handle?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> Sorry, trying to follow along, I didn't realize FF's husband was on TAM. What's his handle?


AFAIK he isn't...never seen him on her thread. But if you go through her posts you will find multiple instances when they were still separated and he was trying to do the right thing, not take her for all she had.

For example restructuring of their join overdraft was done in a way favourable to her. He did turn up and so stuff around the house. Things like that.

Just me reading between the lines. Might be wrong but I don't think so. And the relative success of their reconciliation so far is a good sign.

Most of her stuff is in this thread, but she had other threads back in the beginning. I forget where the stuff all is, but I went through every thread she started a while back, to understand things as well as possible.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

You’re right, Wazza, my H is not on TAM. And I agree, he is an honorable man who made a bad choice. 

She has not called him back. 

Oh my gosh, how deeply things affect us! He didn’t know who I was referring to when I asked if she had called and asked me who I meant. I could not say her name. I just couldn’t. I looked away and started shaking. He figured it out.

So, either someone reported her as a poor mother, she figured it was him (eight months after he left her), called in anger, and has now calmed down and is dropping it. Or, you were all right and she called purposely on the one-year anniversary, but is (hopefully) letting it drop. Whichever it is, I pray we have heard the last from her.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

When you are as old as me you will know that it gets better.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> When you are as old as me you will know that it gets better.


Methuselah, I presume?


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

You nailed it Frostflower! 

*ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY*

In my studies on affairs I found a very strange phenomenon, quite unheard of with regard to marriage counselors, that has to do with reaccuring problems on the one and two year anniversary. It's not well known because it delves inside the NLP field of psychology which isn't widely accepted, but it's all too familiar with addicts. 

Simply put, we're all conditioned to remember certain events and react a certain way with the changing of the seasons. For instance you start to crave chocolate around St. Valentine's Day and remember deaths in the family around the anniversary. The year after a traumatic event that's locked in your mind, like the ending of an affair or the first time you discovered him cheating, is going to cause you to react in the same way.... But you probably wouldn't know why. All you would know is you're upset and you can't figure out what's upsetting you. 

What this means for you is that you're likely to hear from her again or have her test your husband at significant holidays they shared. She might pull a complete vanishing act in between, but you better believe it's not over, not until around the second or third year he's completely avoided her. This is why you're also going to have to pay very careful to the health of your relationship around those times and even replace those triggers with romantic dates of your own. You'll also want to change phone numbers, email accounts, and anything she can use to contact your husband. But you already knew that. 

One last tip and I'll leave you alone. Get an event planner and start marking off those horrible dates you remember from last year like D day and when he left, so you can replace those bad memories/connections with good ones by planning romantic trips and just for the hell of it drop everything and have sex days.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Don’t leave me alone, Nsweet. Your posts are helpful.

H hasn’t heard another word from her. So far, so good.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Don’t leave me alone, Nsweet. Your posts are helpful.
> 
> H hasn’t heard another word from her. * So far, so good*.


Happy to hear Frosty.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Don’t leave me alone, Nsweet. Your posts are helpful.
> 
> H hasn’t heard another word from her. So far, so good.


I will be here for you when you need me Frostflower!


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

NSweet, 

Your advice in your last post is great. Had my W not messed up so horribly, this advice could have been very handy.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Sigh. Had a horrible trigger today. R and I went into town to run errands and met up for coffee when we were done. He had looked tense all morning and I overheard him speaking angrily on the phone to someone at his office, which is extremely not like him. When we were having coffee, I asked him if he was stressed. He said yes. I asked what was stressing him and he said his work and our son. 

Our son, who is in another province, failed to turn up to work for three days. Not quite as bad as it sounds because he either gets called in to drive or goes in in the morning to see if there is a trip....but still, not good. His boss was concerned and sent someone over to his place to make sure he was all right. His car was in the driveway, but there was no answer at the door. His boss called R to express concern. As it happens, our other son who works up north was on his way back here for his time off. R contacted him and he said he would go and check on his brother. He did and got no response when he banged on the door. He called R who said to call the local police and let them know he was going to break down the door. My son did so and found his brother sound asleep. He has always slept like he is in a coma. He told his brother that he was exhausted and stressed. He has been driving long overnight hauls six days a week to try and get ahead financially. In spite of that, he is having trouble making ends meet. We have been helping him. Anyway, his boss said to take a few more days, so he still has his job. The real stress for us is that he has a history of drug abuse and we are worried that he has or that he will relapse. Our other son said he doesn’t think that is the case. He took his brother out for a nice dinner, then bowling and had him stay in his hotel room for the night. All the younger one has slept on for the past several months is the bunk in his semi or the blow-up mattress in his apartment (his only furniture). 

So, this plus his job has been stressing R. When i heard this and saw the look on his face, I panicked. He looked and sounded just like he did before he left us. All I could get out was, “You aren’t going to leave me, are you?” Pathetic.

He looked stunned and asked why I would ask that. He has no idea how I felt. We need to talk about it. I had hoped we could talk tonight, but the Canucks are playing and he looks very relaxed right now. I will wait for the right moment.

Sigh.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Sigh. Had a horrible trigger today. R and I went into town to run errands and met up for coffee when we were done. He had looked tense all morning and I overheard him speaking angrily on the phone to someone at his office, which is extremely not like him. When we were having coffee, I asked him if he was stressed. He said yes. I asked what was stressing him and he said his work and our son.
> 
> Our son, who is in another province, failed to turn up to work for three days. Not quite as bad as it sounds because he either gets called in to drive or goes in in the morning to see if there is a trip....but still, not good. His boss was concerned and sent someone over to his place to make sure he was all right. His car was in the driveway, but there was no answer at the door. His boss called R to express concern. As it happens, our other son who works up north was on his way back here for his time off. R contacted him and he said he would go and check on his brother. He did and got no response when he banged on the door. He called R who said to call the local police and let them know he was going to break down the door. My son did so and found his brother sound asleep. He has always slept like he is in a coma. He told his brother that he was exhausted and stressed. He has been driving long overnight hauls six days a week to try and get ahead financially. In spite of that, he is having trouble making ends meet. We have been helping him. Anyway, his boss said to take a few more days, so he still has his job. The real stress for us is that he has a history of drug abuse and we are worried that he has or that he will relapse. Our other son said he doesn’t think that is the case. He took his brother out for a nice dinner, then bowling and had him stay in his hotel room for the night. All the younger one has slept on for the past several months is the bunk in his semi or the blow-up mattress in his apartment (his only furniture).
> 
> ...


Sorry that it was such a day FF.

BUT WHAT YOU SAID TO R WAS NOT PATHETIC. 

Pathetic would have been to hold it in. Pathetic would have been to not talk about it.

That said, one assumes R realises he made a mistake, and will not repeat it.

I know R is not big on talking. Have you thought about writing the things you want to say to him in a letter if you can't get him to talk? Maybe if you could ask some questions in such a letter it might get a response.

I hope things turn out ok for your son.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

It's crazy how unrelated random things can trigger us. But that's how it is. It was last Friday that I found out about her multiple EAs ( PAs?). Today I triggered while sitting in my desk at work. Fridays will suck for a while. 

Hang in there Frosty. 

Communication is key.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thank you for the words of support. Script, you are right, communication is key. I just wish it wasn’t like pulling teeth. Wazza, writing is a good idea. I will try talking first, but if I don’t get anywhere, I will definitely try writing to him.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

I was thinking drug problem before you even said it. Big thing with meth users is to stay up for days on a couple hundred dollar bump, and then sleep for two or three days. Oh yeah, you better believe he's back on it.... If he was just over working he'd at least be able to show you paycheck receipts and bills he's paid, maybe some receipts. But it's highly suspicious that he's working that hard and having money problems.

Regardless, he's a grown man... It's neither of you's problem to help him when he still wants to use. The only way he's going to snap out of it is if he hits rock bottom and knows he can't come to you or your husband unless he's ready to commit to rehab. No enabling and letting yourself be taken advantage of anymore.

Frostflower, you still have doubts about your husband..... So it's understandable you would still hold that fear of him leaving. Try not to obsess over it or give him any excuse to cut and run if you're excessivly needy. It's perfectly ok to be scared, just not to run to him for reassurance right now because he may see this as insulting and pull away from you. To him it's a comment out of left field, and the whole miscommunication issue starts again. Just try to remember this and work on those abandonment fears with your IC. If you're fears are really really bad, it's highly likely that you're still carrying some emotional scars from childhood.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

The guys have already said it, just adding some hugs Frosty.

You shouldn't get on your own case for these feelings. They are normal and imo, you did the right thing communicating them.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Northern Monkey said:


> The guys have already said it, just adding some hugs Frosty.
> 
> You shouldn't get on your own case for these feelings. They are normal and imo, you did the right thing communicating them.


Thanks, Monk. I can always use hugs.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> I was thinking drug problem before you even said it. Big thing with meth users is to stay up for days on a couple hundred dollar bump, and then sleep for two or three days. Oh yeah, you better believe he's back on it.... If he was just over working he'd at least be able to show you paycheck receipts and bills he's paid, maybe some receipts. But it's highly suspicious that he's working that hard and having money problems.
> 
> Regardless, he's a grown man... It's neither of you's problem to help him when he still wants to use. The only way he's going to snap out of it is if he hits rock bottom and knows he can't come to you or your husband unless he's ready to commit to rehab. No enabling and letting yourself be taken advantage of anymore.
> 
> Frostflower, you still have doubts about your husband..... So it's understandable you would still hold that fear of him leaving. Try not to obsess over it or give him any excuse to cut and run if you're excessivly needy. It's perfectly ok to be scared, just not to run to him for reassurance right now because he may see this as insulting and pull away from you. To him it's a comment out of left field, and the whole miscommunication issue starts again. Just try to remember this and work on those abandonment fears with your IC. If you're fears are really really bad, it's highly likely that you're still carrying some emotional scars from childhood.


Our son used cocaine in the past, but the result was the same. he would crash and be impossible to wake up. I pray that he is not back on it. he has been doing so well.

The money problems are due to a combination of things. His rent is exorbitant, plus he has to pay 40% of the heating and waste water bills for the house. He only spends maybe four nights a month there. He tried to get a room-mate, but no takers. He is actually thinking of letting it go when the lease runs out, putting his things in storage and simply staying in cheap hotels when he is in town overnight. He is eating on the road as he rarely gets back to his apartment. He doesn’t have a tv, so he watches hockey and movies on his phone, resulting in large bills. He has car payments and unfortunately he smokes. So, although he is making good money, he is finding it difficult to make a go of it. He is looking for a better job with more stable shifts and hopefully operating heavy equipment rather than long-distance driving as his back is bothering him. I don’t know. The last time we spoke he sounded pretty discouraged.

As for my H, I am really not obsessing. Since I snapped out of it yesterday, I have been fine. Doubts.....yes. The trust has been severely damaged. It will take time to rebuild it and it likely won’t ever be as strong as it was before. That said, I honestly don’t think he will leave again. My fear is deep in my gut. And seeing that stressed look on his face brought it to the surface. My first reaction was to say, “Please don’t leave me”, but it seemed so very needy. And so, the question fell out.

Before he left I never had abandonment fears. I believed that we would always be together. I believed he could never do such a thing. I never doubted my faith in him. Now I think there will always be a part of me that fears he could leave. Moments like yesterday’s will cause it to bubble to the surface. I will be careful not to appear excessively needy, but on the other hand I think he needs to know that things are not entirely as they were before. I would never say anything simply to hurt him, but if we are to be successful in our marriage he should know how I feel and understand that there will be triggers. I don’t know how there couldn’t be.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

My take is, if I have to pretend to be something I am not in order to have a relationship, not sure I am interested. 

So if you were needy all the time, I'd see it as a problem, but the answer would be to work on why you were needy more than watching what you say.

And I think asking such a questions, in this context, was really good. First, better to let it out than stew. Second, the way you describe it, R has not really played ball on counselling or working on the relationship. And I think it's fair to remind him there are things you need to work through.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

You guys were right. OW is not giving up. R was out of town the last three days. Last night the phone rang. The caller, a woman, asked if I was Frostflower. When I said yes, she asked if I was the Frostflower who is a teacher and whose H works for (name of company which happens to be in the same building where R works). I said no and asked who was calling. She wouldn’t say, just that her H works with him and she had something to tell me Her next words were like a punch to my stomach. “Your H isn’t where you think he is.” She went on to tell me he was with that ‘other person’, that he was there when he was supposed to be on his last two trips, that he emailed her every night. If I didn’t believe her, I could phone PW’s number and check. She rattled off a number which I didn’t take down as I knew by then that I was either talking to OW or to a warped friend of hers. I couldn’t match the voice to the one who had called before. That call was short and long enough ago that I couldn’t tell if it was the same person. When I asked again who she was, she repeated that her H works with R and that she cared about me and felt I should know. She then said I should ‘get tested’ because he was doing all kinds of sexual things that I wouldn’t believe. Next she told me that he was frequenting a sex site, which was just horrendous. Tongue in cheek, I asked how she knew this. Her H has seen the site. He has been on R’s computer. I asked what her H was doing on my H’s work email. “Oh, it was a different computer, not the work one.”

She repeated that I should protect myself and get tested. She again refused to give her name. She said R was planning to leave me and marry OW. Again I asked who she was. She repeated the same answer as before, said she was concerned about me and the children. If it were her H, she would want to know. She started crying. She then said something about having two older children herself, and something about R and OW going on ’the boat’ this summer (R and I had taken our family on a houseboat a few summers ago). She warned me again to protect myself and my children. I said, “Oh, I will.” She said goodbye and hung up.

I had clued in early on that this was not the wife of a co-worker of R’s. I kept my voice steady and calm during the whole call. But when she hung up, I started shaking. I got the number she had called from. I called R and as soon as I heard his voice, I started crying. Couldn’t stop. I told him about the call, not going into detail as I was too upset to get it all out. He sounded stunned. He said he didn’t recognize the number. After a minute, he said he had to get to bed as he had an early start the following morning. That hurt as I really needed more from him.

Afterward, needing to talk, I contacted my best friend who comforted me, and then tracked down the telephone number. It was for a coffee shop in a community a bit further out than the one where OW lived when R was with her. 

It was her, I’m sure of it. I think that’s how I was able to remain calm. I even smiled at one point where I was sure she had given herself away. All the 'sexual things he was doing that I wouldn’t believe’. R has ED. He is not capable of doing ‘things'.

The thing is, I didn’t believe any of what she was saying.....but there was a tiny seed of doubt in my heart that got jiggled by her words. I hate this.

Couldn’t sleep last night. I tossed and turned and what kept coming into my mind was, how did she know he was away? Is she watching us? This morning, I realized that if she called his work number, she would hear the message he leaves, saying when he will be back.

R texted me this morning and said he loves me. When he got home he hugged me tight. I think last night he just didn’t know what to say.

I will talk to him about it, but right now (of course) there is hockey on! Thanks to my wonderful friend’s support, I am all right. 

But what next and how long will this go on?


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm sorry this happened Frosty. 

Sending you a cyber hug. 

You did a good job at remaining calm during the call. This kind of calls are common. The OW is fishing and trying to cause trouble. 

To be honest though, I didn't like that he told you he needed to go after a minute of talking to you, while you were crying. Shows lack of empathy I think. After all, this is a consequence of the mess he made. He should be more than willing to stay up with you and talk about it. This is the kind of thing that leads to resentment in a marriage. 

I suggest opening up to him and communicating how much the call bothered you. How were things going prior to the call? Looks like he hasn't been unwilling to go to MC leaving you with limited options. 

What is your gut telling you? Trust but verify. I feel you should pay attention to certain things. Just don't get caught.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

OMFG Frostflower! I had to stop reading after the first paragraph and yell "What the f*ck!", and then go back to reading the rest. The thing is, as you pointed out, she's trying to plant seeds of doubt because she's powerless. This is all she has left! You realize that right? This is her all or nothing Hail Mary play on your husband, because if they were still having an affair she wouldn't be trying to bug you with this. 

How long is this going to go on? As long as it takes for you to file a restraining order and order Trap-Call services like I told you about before. I know TC if a little expensive, but it's just beautiful the way it unblocks restricted and hidded phone numbers, it records everything on the home site for you to hear without a court order like the phone companies, and it will play a message warning every caller that their message will be recorded. It may be just the thing you need to frighten her away for good. 

And let me just back track a minute and say a few things about her jealousy ploy. You realize she's a grown ass woman trying to poison your relationship the way a jealous teenager would, right? And you're going to laugh your ass off with what I have to say next.... Do you realize how badly she's f*cking herself here? If your husband had any shred of romance left for her it's gone because she's chased him to death and just won't let him go. At this point I wouldn't worry about her so much as stealing your husband back as I would that she might try to hurt you to get to him, which is a rational fear. But I wouldn't hesitate to file a report with the police ASAP and even a TRO against her.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

*Re: Re: Frostflower's journal*



Nsweet said:


> OMFG Frostflower! I had to stop reading after the first paragraph and yell "What the f*ck!", and then go back to reading the rest. The thing is, as you pointed out, she's trying to plant seeds of doubt because she's powerless. This is all she has left! You realize that right? This is her all or nothing Hail Mary play on your husband, because if they were still having an affair she wouldn't be trying to bug you with this.
> 
> How long is this going to go on? As long as it takes for you to file a restraining order and order Trap-Call services like I told you about before. I know TC if a little expensive, but it's just beautiful the way it unblocks restricted and hidded phone numbers, it records everything on the home site for you to hear without a court order like the phone companies, and it will play a message warning every caller that their message will be recorded. It may be just the thing you need to frighten her away for good.
> 
> And let me just back track a minute and say a few things about her jealousy ploy. You realize she's a grown ass woman trying to poison your relationship the way a jealous teenager would, right? And you're going to laugh your ass off with what I have to say next.... Do you realize how badly she's f*cking herself here? If your husband had any shred of romance left for her it's gone because she's chased him to death and just won't let him go. At this point I wouldn't worry about her so much as stealing your husband back as I would that she might try to hurt you to get to him, which is a rational fear. But I wouldn't hesitate to file a report with the police ASAP and even a TRO against her.


I think Nsweet is spot on.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I'm sorry FF. That really stinks.

You need to talk to H about it and let him know that cutting you off on the phone was not the right thing to do.

As far as what the OW said...you already know she is a bit unstable and not beyond lying to try to ruin your M. Verify what you can. And frankly your H should help with it.

Thought and prayers headed your way.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

FF, sorry this is happening to you. It sucks.

As I recall, OW blew it with R when sending you fake emails from R's account. Fake calls are the same game. She is hurting herself.

Further, I assume she is only approaching you because she cannot go behind your back to try and steal him. So unpleasant as it is I think it is a good thing in a way.

Is it a good time to reopen my campaign to get you to cuss? OW deserves it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Is it a good time to reopen my campaign to get you to cuss? OW deserves it!


I just want to hear Frostflower say "B!tch please" next time the OW starts this thing and then hang up immediately. Don't even stay on the line long enough to hear her bullsh!t stories.

Which reminds me.... After this, don't you think it's time you and your husband change all your phone numbers, email addresses, etc. Get yourself an unlisted number, transfer emails to a new account(she won't be able to tell), and let the police know you're being harassed by this woman. You may have to file a complaint that solves nothing the first time, but its going to come in handy if OW decides show up for a vandalism visit and there's a record of her harassment. 

I'd just like to remind you that now's the perfect time to panic and do whatever you can to protect yourself. Do not think that the OW is going to let him go so easily if she's ramping up her ploys to get him back. I would start with a complaint, a TRO if you have cause, and then everythign you can think of to keep her from contacting you again. The odds are she's not going to try to mess with you, but you can be too careful. 

I'm not trying to scare you here or give you nightmares. I just want you to get tough on her to begin with and the next time she does something like this threaten her first and then carry out your promise. Show that juvenile you're not going to fall for her crap anymore and say something like "Sorry, [OW's name] it's not going to work on me anymore."


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wazza said:


> FF, sorry this is happening to you. It sucks.
> 
> As I recall, OW blew it with R when sending you fake emails from R's account. Fake calls are the same game. She is hurting herself.
> 
> ...


Wazza,

If I could just get her to call her by name?

OW - my rear end.

She is posOW!

Say it Frosty.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Wazza,
> 
> If I could just get her to call her by name?
> 
> ...


What is it with you guys that you are bent on having me swear?!! Shouldn’t you apply this determination to creating world peace or finding a cure for cancer or something equally as noble??


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I haven’t been getting all the email notifications for threads I am subscribed to, including my own, so I didn’t realize I had responses. I must admit I was feeling somewhat abandoned! Should have known you were all here for me.

R is away again this week. Before he left, I told him that, should OW (sorry guys, just can’t do it!) call again, I would contact the police. He said he is planning to anyway, but that we don’t know for sure it was her who called. I replied that there were enough clues in what she said that it was pretty clear. I hadn’t told him everything as it was pretty hurtful. He asked me to write it down so that he could take it to the police. 

I’m so glad that he is planning to do this. I thought he was sweeping it under the rug as he wants it all in the past.

As for how he ended the call between us the night it happened, I don’t believe he was purposely cutting me off. He doesn’t know how to handle emotion. I had stopped crying by that point, but was obviously still pretty upset and I honestly don’t think he knew what to do or say. If he had been here, he would have held me, but over the phone, he would have to say something and he didn’t know what. I could tell by his voice that he was he was stunned. When he is flummoxed by emotional stuff, he reverts to practicalities. In this case he had been planning to turn in early as he had to get up early, and that is what his mind latched onto. 

Funny how you can live with someone for so long and never really think about what makes them tick. One thing this past year has done has been to make me reflect more on him, on me and on our marriage. Not that it doesn’t still hurt when he handles emotion in a way that is not my way but, thinking about our phone call, I understand it now. It explains past things. Would I like him to be more emotionally responsive? Yes. But that’s not him. Maybe we can work on it, but I accept that his ability to respond may never be as perfect as I would like it. And that’s okay. 

In a way, I suppose I should be thankful for the past year, pain and all. 

I have learned a lot.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> What is it with you guys that you are bent on having me swear?!! Shouldn’t you apply this determination to creating world peace or finding a cure for cancer or something equally as noble??


Not only are your suggested alternate goals more noble....it also appears they are more achievable.


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## oncehisangel (Oct 13, 2012)

WOw frost..speechless....

It's ok... I did a big WT *eff* for you....and I don't swear either.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

oncehisangel said:


> WOw frost..speechless....
> 
> It's ok... I did a big WT *eff* for you....and I don't swear either.


Huh? I thought Aussies swore all the time?!?!? And all dress like Crocodile Dundee or Steve Irwin.

(Just kidding...please don't pelt me with hate mail from down under)


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Huh? I thought Aussies swore all the time?!?!? And all dress like Crocodile Dundee or Steve Irwin.
> 
> (Just kidding...please don't pelt me with hate mail from down under)


And they all sit by a billabong waiting for their billies to boil. I think they dance with someone named Matilda too.

(Don’t pelt me. Pelt Wazza. He started it!)

Thanks for swearing for me, oncehisangel. maybe it will get Wazza and Conrad off my case for a while!


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

It's ok, they give you a breather, I'll pick up the slack Frosty! 

You have learnt a lot, I for one am thankful for that.

I don't know about thankful for the pain. But pat yourself on the back for how you are getting through it.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Northern Monkey said:


> It's ok, they give you a breather, I'll pick up the slack Frosty!
> 
> You have learnt a lot, I for one am thankful for that.
> 
> I don't know about thankful for the pain. But pat yourself on the back for how you are getting through it.


Thanks, Monk. I’m trying.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

The best username I've seen on TAM is SlowlyGettingWiser.

Once we end up here, it's all we can do really. Make one less mistake today than yesterday and so on.

For me, I've given up trying to set my destination in life, instead I'm looking at how I spend the journey.


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## tiamaria02 (Jun 18, 2013)

Wow, I just read all this in one go and my stomach was turning for all that you've been through. You definitely have a different strength than I do. I applaud you and all that you have been through, it has just made you into a stronger person. I hope things work out for you and your husband. posOW needs to be sh** kicked.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

tiamaria02 said:


> posOW needs to be sh** kicked.


See Frosty.. pos... You can do it. :rofl:


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

See Frosty,

Wazza, Conrad...it doesn't matter who is following your thread, it will never stop until you just let it out...

The reward is true enlightenment


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Thanks, Monk. I’m trying.


Thinking of you, Frostflower, and sending ((((hugs)))). This is seriously tough stuff, but you are doing great! Hang in there, and keep us posted.

Warm Regards,- A12


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

tiamaria02 said:


> Wow, I just read all this in one go and my stomach was turning for all that you've been through. You definitely have a different strength than I do. I applaud you and all that you have been through, it has just made you into a stronger person. I hope things work out for you and your husband. posOW needs to be sh** kicked.





Awakening2012 said:


> Thinking of you, Frostflower, and sending ((((hugs)))). This is seriously tough stuff, but you are doing great! Hang in there, and keep us posted.
> 
> Warm Regards,- A12


Thanks, tiamaria and A12. I appreciate your kind words.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Northern Monkey said:


> See Frosty.. pos... You can do it. :rofl:





Tron said:


> See Frosty,
> 
> Wazza, Conrad...it doesn't matter who is following your thread, it will never stop until you just let it out...
> 
> The reward is true enlightenment


Jeez, now they’re ganging up on me!

True enlightenment comes from swearing? Can you expand on that, Tron? (This should be interesting!)


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Jeez, now they’re ganging up on me!
> 
> *True enlightenment comes from swearing?* Can you expand on that, Tron? (This should be interesting!)


I know one poster who would agree to this ... but he's currently banned for his language.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> I know one poster who would agree to this ... but he's currently banned for his language.


Well, what does that tell you???!!


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Well, what does that tell you???!!


I'll stay out of the Drama Triangle on that one. 

How ya doing Frosty? Been a while!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> I'll stay out of the Drama Triangle on that one.
> 
> How ya doing Frosty? Been a while!


I’m good, Up. R is away again this week, and so far no stupid phone call. I have been putting off describing the last one in writing. Don’t know why. Don’t want to relive it, I guess. 

How are you? Glad you’re back! Do you have a new thread?


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I’m good, Up. R is away again this week, and so far no stupid phone call. I have been putting off describing the last one in writing. Don’t know why. Don’t want to relive it, I guess.
> 
> How are you? Glad you’re back! Do you have a new thread?


I'm doing good Frosty. Started a new position at work 3 weeks ago and really like it, instead of being stuck in 1 area of the plant I'm moving all over the place. Plus, I get to drive forklift and it brings me back to my old days when I was younger. Drive that thing like a boss and passed all my tests without a problem to get the position. Plus, straight days is something I'm rather enjoying.

Heading out for 4 days of camping down south on Thursday afternoon, looking really forward to that and take over the apartment a few days earlier, on the 28th. So I will get a chance to move in that weekend before I take the kids down south for 2 nights with my cousin and her kids. Then, if all goes to plan, I will head back down south mid July for more camping at the same place but with a different group of people. So, things are great on the social front.

I have been pressing my HR department to get the pension information that I've been waiting for since February, the final piece needed to get everything figured out financially and for the divorce to be finalized. I was told today that I should have it all by tomorrow and informed the ex this evening that I will have it for her shortly. Things between the ex and I have been good as well, no complaints on how we are handling the co-parenting together.

As for a thread, I made one up in Life After Divorce about co-parenting but that's about it.

Hopefully things go smoothly while R is away, and you receive no phone call.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> Jeez, now they’re ganging up on me!
> 
> True enlightenment comes from swearing? Can you expand on that, Tron? (This should be interesting!)


You asked for it. I am going to give this one my best shot without boring everyone with a treatise on existential philosophy.

"Enlightenment is about finding truth in our being. It is about seeing the world for what it really is and people for who they truly are. And when you see, the path will lead you to teach it to others."

So FF, all you need to do now is share it with us...just tell us who she truly is.

Be like the prophets.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Tron said:


> You asked for it. I am going to give this one my best shot without boring everyone with a treatise on existential philosophy.
> 
> "Enlightenment is about finding truth in our being. It is about seeing the world for what it really is and people for who they truly are. And when you see, the path will lead you to teach it to others."
> 
> ...


Nice definition of enlightenment, Tron. However, i don’t see how my swearing will contribute to this state!

Who she truly is? From what I’ve seen, a pretty sad human being who needs a lot of help. Manipulative for sure. And either lonely or narcissistic. 

If it makes you feel a bit better, I used to refer to her as a (insert word for female dog) in my own head, and yes, I spoke it out loud more than a few times when no-one was around. But I don’t anymore. She is sick.

Does that mean I forgive her? I know R well enough to know that he would not have sought the affair. She saw a good thing and went after it. He made a huge, horrible, hurtful mistake, but she is a predator. I long ago forgave my H, but I am not there with her and the fact that she continues to haunt us is not helping. I hope, for my own sake, that I can achieve forgiveness at some point, but I may never. That failure would reflect a flaw in my own character. But right now, I am not ready to nor capable of addressing that.

I came to my thread today to copy what I posted about the phone call. R asked me to write it out, and I have been putting it off. Its painful. I realized this morning that it is here. I will copy it and add whatever else I remember. I will also record what I remember of the first phone call. Then it will all be documented for the police.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> I'm doing good Frosty. Started a new position at work 3 weeks ago and really like it, instead of being stuck in 1 area of the plant I'm moving all over the place. Plus, I get to drive forklift and it brings me back to my old days when I was younger. Drive that thing like a boss and passed all my tests without a problem to get the position. Plus, straight days is something I'm rather enjoying.
> 
> Heading out for 4 days of camping down south on Thursday afternoon, looking really forward to that and take over the apartment a few days earlier, on the 28th. So I will get a chance to move in that weekend before I take the kids down south for 2 nights with my cousin and her kids. Then, if all goes to plan, I will head back down south mid July for more camping at the same place but with a different group of people. So, things are great on the social front.
> 
> ...


All good news, Up. I’m so glad. I can picture you zipping around on that forklift. try not to have too much fun. Its supposed to be work!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

The ripples continue to flow through our lives. 

R had to go into the office today. When my daughter asked where he was and I told her, she said, “Don’t you find it strange that he has never had to work on the weekend until this year?” This is actually the only time he has had to do this, a fact I reminded her of. She then asked why he had to work. I explained that he and his co-worker had barely finished what they had to do on their trip out of town and now the paperwork had to be done. If they didn’t do it today, it would mean working after hours on Monday. She said, “Sure”. I told her that I had heard the phone call between R and his co-worker the evening before arranging this, so I knew that is what he was doing. I hope she believed me. 

I told her about the phone call. No details, just that OW had called and said things about R. I did this in case OW calls and DD answers. This worries me particularly as I will be in England for three weeks and during that time, R will be away with work twice. 

She wanted to know OW’s name and what she had said. I told her that her name and the details of the call aren't important. that it was upsetting and that she needed to be aware that it could happen again. I told her if it did, she should just hang up. Her response, “oh, I’ll give her a piece of my mind!”

She asked what kind of person would do that and why. I said that I thought she was sick and that she is trying to drive a wedge between R and me. 

Never thought I’d have to talk to me daughter about my H’s ex-gf. The paths you follow in life that you never thought you’d see.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

DD is young. She will learn.

Her relationship with R is between them. He betrayed your kids when he betrayed you. And the world looks simple when you are 20. I think it becomes easier to forgive when you get older and better understand human frailty.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> DD is young. She will learn.
> 
> Her relationship with R is between them. He betrayed your kids when he betrayed you. And the world looks simple when you are 20.* I think it becomes easier to forgive when you get older and better understand human frailty.*


Ah, so being ancient explains why I forgave so readily!

Being serious, I think you are right. This afternoon reminded me that, although she has been getting along with R much better, her pain is still just below the surface.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Ah, so being ancient explains why I forgave so readily!
> 
> Being serious, I think you are right. This afternoon reminded me that, although she has been getting along with R much better, her pain is still just below the surface.


Wazza is dead on. What exactly is your daughter doing to cope with this? Is she seeing an IC or anything?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> Wazza is dead on. What exactly is your daughter doing to cope with this? Is she seeing an IC or anything?


She refuses IC. She won’t talk about what he did with me. She and R are gradually rebuilding their relationship. It will take time...time with no instances of trust-breaking.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> She refuses IC. She won’t talk about what he did with me. She and R are gradually rebuilding their relationship. It will take time...time with no instances of trust-breaking.


How old is she again??


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> How old is she again??


She will be twenty in November.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Ah, so being ancient explains why I forgave so readily!
> 
> Being serious, I think you are right. This afternoon reminded me that, although she has been getting along with R much better, her pain is still just below the surface.


You are not ancient, you are a Frostflower in full bloom!

Does R know about the conversation. If not, should he?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> You are not ancient, you are a Frostflower in full bloom!
> 
> Does R know about the conversation. If not, should he?


Awwww! You always say the sweetest things!

No, R doesn’t know about the conversation. Should he? I will tell him about the second part, that I warned DD about the possibility of a call from OW. The other part....what do you think? I guess I try to shield him from the hurt I know it will cause to hear that DD is suspicious.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Awwww! You always say the sweetest things!
> 
> No, R doesn’t know about the conversation. Should he? I will tell him about the second part, that I warned DD about the possibility of a call from OW. The other part....what do you think? I guess I try to shield him from the hurt I know it will cause to hear that DD is suspicious.


Tricky.

I probably would, unless you really thought it would break him, or be seen by the daughter as betraying a confidence.

Whatever I did I would try very hard not to be seen as taking sides.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

As some of you know, I am in England right now. My Mum wanted to come, but Dad didn’t. As Mum can’t travel alone, here I am! 

It has been an amazing trip! We are in the town where I was born, in the house we used to live in. I was six when my family emigrated to Canada, so I do have lots of memories. My hometown is pretty much as I remember, but unfortunately everything has shrunk. Must be due to the damp sea air!

It is proving to be an incredible journey of self-discovery. I have studied enough psychology to understand that the first few years of one’s life shape so much of one’s personality, but being here is showing me how very true this is.

I love hills. Mountains are nice, but it doesn’t feel like home unless there are hills nearby. Looking out the front window of the house where I spent my first six years, I see the Downs rising gently behind the houses at the end of the street, and wrapping the community in their soft green embrace. And I know why I love hills.

Fifteen years ago, we moved to an island. As the ferry taking us across the strait approached the shore, I experienced an overwhelming sense of homecoming, but couldn’t pinpoint why. It makes sense now. My hometown is by the sea. As soon as I saw it, I knew why the Island felt like home.

I have always loved little blue flowers. One warm and sunny day when I was little, walking to the beach we passed a small patch of blue flowers. Surrounded by my extended family, I felt warm and sunny. Those little blue flowers became the center of my memory of that day. I have been searching for those flowers ever since. 

We are so inextricably tied to our past. 

The other day, researching our family tree in the library, I discovered that my Great-Great Uncle’s name is engraved on a plaque commemorating local amateur football players who lost their lives in World War One. I first learned of him a few years ago while researching our family tree and was able to find some information about how and where he died. He is buried in France, so I was excited to learn about the plaque. Yesterday I was able to find it. It is on a wall in the bar next to the football pitch where he used to play. When I reached up to touch his name, one of the men who has shown me where it was remarked, “Its part of your history.” 

I am so blessed to be able to connect with that history.

My only regret is that R is not with me to share my journey. To be honest, I didn’t want to come. I didn’t want to be away from him for three weeks, not because I worried that my absence might cause him to stumble again, but because I want to be with him. 

Now I am glad that I came. But tomorrow is our anniversary. Last year we were apart and I thought our marriage was over. I wish we could be together tomorrow.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> As some of you know, I am in England right now. My Mum wanted to come, but Dad didn’t. As Mum can’t travel alone, here I am!
> 
> It has been an amazing trip! We are in the town where I was born, in the house we used to live in. I was six when my family emigrated to Canada, so I do have lots of memories. My hometown is pretty much as I remember, but unfortunately everything has shrunk. Must be due to the damp sea air!
> 
> ...


Buried in France.

Do you know where?

Lots of Brits ended up buried around Verdun.

One of the grisliest places you could ever visit.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

What a great update.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Buried in France.
> 
> Do you know where?
> 
> ...


Pernois British Cemetery, Holloy-Les-Pernois

He died of his wounds on Aigust 10, 1918. The war ended in November. He almost made it.

Have you been to Verdun, Conrad? Why is it still grizzly?

Eastbourne was the most bombed city in Britain in WW2. 
I was talking to a man the other day who told me that the damage was massive damage. His family moved here just after the war ended and when his sister saw the devastation, she burst into tears and begged her parents to leave. My Mum was evacuated for part of the war, but did spend much of it here. She showed me today where her family of four took shelter during the air raids. It was a small cupboard under the stairs. I can’t even imagine. I remember my grandmother telling me that, on her way home from work one day, she passed a tree with part of a man’s body hanging in the branches.

Will we ever learn?


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Wazza said:


> What a great update.


:iagree: Thank you for these beautiful and eloquent reflections. My father passed away yesterday, so my family is in mouring and we are all headed to Minnesota to attend to things and organize the memorial service. I am glad you were able to make this trip and share more memories with your Mom. One day you'll be very grateful that you did.

I am also happy to hear that your marriage and family seem to be healing and recovering. It is heartwarming to know it is possible  

Hugs and All Best Regards, - A12


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Awesome update FF! 

Have a fantastic walk down memory lane and a safe journey.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Wow sounds like its been very healing for you to visit England. Our history shapes who we are. Thanks for sharing your memories, very poignant. Enjoy the rest of your trip!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Chopsy said:


> Wow sounds like its been very healing for you to visit England. Our history shapes who we are. Thanks for sharing your memories, very poignant. Enjoy the rest of your trip!


You two ought to get together for a cup of tea.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frosty,

Verdun still has the concrete vaults filled with human bones - the skulls being the most prominent.

The British empire was truly lost there.

An entire generation of young men cut down in their prime.

I don't know how much we've learned, but in WWI, the German machine gun was at the lectern.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Nice update Frosty. Reading it reminded me of times years ago when I would travel to my native country and see beautiful things wishing X was there with me. 

Enjoy the trip. It's good to know at least some stories have a happy ending. Not all end up bad. 

Take care!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Awakening2012 said:


> :iagree: Thank you for these beautiful and eloquent reflections. My father passed away yesterday, so my family is in mouring and we are all headed to Minnesota to attend to things and organize the memorial service. I am glad you were able to make this trip and share more memories with your Mom. One day you'll be very grateful that you did.
> 
> I am also happy to hear that your marriage and family seem to be healing and recovering. It is heartwarming to know it is possible
> 
> Hugs and All Best Regards, - A12


I’m so sorry about your father, A12. I’ll say a prayer for him and for your family. Take care. 

Hug.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Frosty,
> 
> Verdun still has the concrete vaults filled with human bones - the skulls being the most prominent.
> 
> ...


I read up on Verdun, Conrad. Humanity was lost there. Like the Battle of Franklin in the American Civil War, thousands were killed or had their lives shattered over a small scrap of land. And we keep doing it.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You two ought to get together for a cup of tea.


That would have been nice, Conrad, but we are in different parts of the country. Maybe next time!


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> That would have been nice, Conrad, but we are in different parts of the country. Maybe next time!


Yep she is on the east coast and I am in the middle/west!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Chopsy said:


> Yep she is on the east coast and I am in the middle/west!


Next time, Chopsy. And maybe we can drag The Monkey out too!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Back home again. What a wonderful trip! It was great to see all my relatives, including cousins who were born since I was last over and are now teenagers. It was also an incredible journey of self-discovery, of seeing how deeply my roots are embedded in English soil. I am a very proud Canadian, but I know now, even more than I did, where I came from.

Our last full day there, my Mum and I went out on the Pier. She was tired, so I parked her on her walker and walked out to the end by myself. And I cried. (And darn if I’m not again!) I was a little girl once more, saying goodbye to everything I knew all over again. Ah, the unresolved issues of our childhood.

Anyway, we had a safe and almost uneventful trip back. I can’t believe an airline would make such a fuss over a suitcase being seven little kilos over the maximum weight! My last few precious minutes in my homeland were spent trying to lighten the load while all of Gatwick (the airport) looked on. Did it REALLY matter if my beach rocks were in my suitcase or my mother’s?!!

And then the security people confiscated the fig jam I bought for R and the honey for my Dad. For Heaven’s sake, they weren’t liquid or gels! (R, my aviation husband, shook his head over that one.)

But at least, at the Canadian end, they didn’t get the seeds from my deceased aunt’s garden or the cutting from her houseplant. 

And now, its back to reality.

I was going through some things this morning and I came across the book of lists I started last summer. It helped keep me from feeling overwhelmed by everything I had to get through during our separation. At the end of each day, I wrote something that I was grateful for. And there it was on the first page, ‘I am grateful for TAM and all the people I have met there’. I still am. Hugely.

Looking at my passport pictures, the expired one from 2005 and the new one from last summer, I am amazed at the difference. In the old one, I look so happy, not smiling as per passport requirements, but happy. In the picture taken last summer, I look haggard. It was quite a journey I went on during those few horrible months. I want to thank you all again for helping me through it. You are all so incredibly amazing. Sometimes I feel that maybe I shouldn’t be here anymore as R and I are no longer separated. But I have come to care for all of you, and I’m not going anywhere!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> My last few precious minutes in my homeland were spent trying to lighten the load while all of Gatwick (the airport) looked on. Did it REALLY matter if my beach rocks were in my suitcase or my mother’s?!!


Damn colonials. Stealing England, one rock at a time!

Glad you had a good trip.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Damn colonials. Stealing England, one rock at a time!
> 
> Glad you had a good trip.


What is it with women and rocks? My mom brought back some from Sicily and Greece last month.

Methinks there might be some ulterior motive or conspiracy...if their men get out of line then...duck!


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Actually fig jam and honey count as liquids or gels. Hell, I've even seen them take away peanut butter from a hypoglycemic, and make me polish off an unopened liter of airport bought bottled water when I was the very first in line... because they made everyone stuck there go back through security first thing in the morning. 

I'm not siding with them, I think TSA officials are beyond d!cks and their rules are too extreme. If you ever wanted to know it's happened to me too, and in their guidebook they literally tell you that you can bring a cooked turkey but not stuffing because they consider stuffing an explosive object. And have that machine that confuses hand lotion for C-4 plastic explosives. 

But at least you had fun on your vacation despite TSA troubles.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> What is it with women and rocks? My mom brought back some from Sicily and Greece last month.
> 
> Methinks there might be some ulterior motive or conspiracy...if their men get out of line then...duck!


I know the English used o dump surplus convicts in the US, then in Australia. Did they dump them in Canada as well? 

Might be in the genes......


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> Actually fig jam and honey count as liquids or gels. Hell, I've even seen them take away peanut butter from a hypoglycemic, and make me polish off an unopened liter of airport bought bottled water when I was the very first in line... because they made everyone stuck there go back through security first thing in the morning.
> 
> I'm not siding with them, I think TSA officials are beyond d!cks and their rules are too extreme. If you ever wanted to know it's happened to me too, and in their guidebook they literally tell you that you can bring a cooked turkey but not stuffing because they consider stuffing an explosive object. And have that machine that confuses hand lotion for C-4 plastic explosives.
> 
> But at least you had fun on your vacation despite TSA troubles.


Well, my stuffing has been known to explode, but in the oven, not on a plane.

If I had been thinking, I would have opened the jars and taken some out. R says they would have let them through then. But, sadly, the suitcase incident left me flustered. As a result, somewhere in England some security man’s family is enjoying R’s fig jam. 

Life can be so unfair at times.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Tron said:


> What is it with women and rocks? My mom brought back some from Sicily and Greece last month.
> 
> Methinks there might be some ulterior motive or conspiracy...if their men get out of line then...duck!


The rocks are to remind me of the beach I used to play on and the cliffs that my hometown sits on. I would never use them on R. Too precious to me. I would use local ones.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I know the English used o dump surplus convicts in the US, then in Australia. Did they dump them in Canada as well?
> 
> Might be in the genes......


Now I know what to do with the rocks!


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Well, my stuffing has been known to explode, but in the oven, not on a plane.
> 
> If I had been thinking, I would have opened the jars and taken some out. R says they would have let them through then. But, sadly, the suitcase incident left me flustered. As a result, somewhere in England some security man’s family is enjoying R’s fig jam.
> 
> Life can be so unfair at times.


Oddly enough you could have divided up the fig jam and honey into tiny 2oz bottles put in a quart sized zip lock and that would have been ok. 

This world makes no sense.:rofl:


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> Oddly enough you could have divided up the fig jam and honey into tiny 2oz bottles put in a quart sized zip lock and that would have been ok.
> 
> This world makes no sense.:rofl:


They let my Mum’s jars through because they were just under 100ml. So she could have had two smaller jars of explosives that she could mix together on the plane. 

I do understand why the rules exist, but there are so many ways that people could get around them. Scary world.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

So glad you had such a wonderful trip! Happy you have your gran's seeds and cutting, plus the rocks. I'm always attracted to rocks too, from special places. Shame about the airport palaver. All those rules can be a little silly IMO. 

Glad you're staying with us on TAM. It just wouldn't be the same.xo


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Glad it was a successful trip and just as glad you stick around.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks, Chopsy and Monk!


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Hi Frosty, how are you? Hope alls well. Thinking of you. xox


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I am well, Chopsy. Thanks for asking. Had a great summer with two highlights, the trip to England and a visit from a dear friend. 

School start-up has been challenging. We have a new student who is really stretching me professionally. To make it more challenging, I am just finished a week’s medical leave (minor surgery). Back at it tomorrow!

R and I are doing well. Its been hard to get him to work on communication, but things are much better than they used to be. We both appreciate each other more than ever. Life is good!


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Glad to hear Frosty.


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Trip to England good. Things going good in the relationship good.
I'm happy for you and your calm, yet exciting life.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

*Re: Re: Frostflower's journal*



Frostflower said:


> I am well, Chopsy. Thanks for asking. Had a great summer with two highlights, the trip to England and a visit from a dear friend.
> 
> School start-up has been challenging. We have a new student who is really stretching me professionally. To make it more challenging, I am just finished a week’s medical leave (minor surgery). Back at it tomorrow!
> 
> R and I are doing well. Its been hard to get him to work on communication, but things are much better than they used to be. We both appreciate each other more than ever. Life is good!


Glad to hear things are going good Frosty. All the best!


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Just stopping by to wish you a happy thanksgiving. Hope you have a great day!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Happy thanksgiving Frostflower. Hope you are doing ok. Drop by and update us all if you have time.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I think Frosty celebrated hers about 6 weeks ago. Who ever thought of celebrating Thanksgiving in October? Just doesn't seem right.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> I think Frosty celebrated hers about 6 weeks ago. Who ever thought of celebrating Thanksgiving in October? Just doesn't seem right.


She was always a rebel.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Can’t let Wazza have the last word!

Its time for an update. The short version: my marriage is over.

The long version:

On New Year’s day, a man came to the door, said he was a courier, (no uniform, no van) and handed me a package. It contained copies of emails, texts, some pictures and a memory stick containing a video of R involved in a sex act, all of which documented the fact that R was continuing the relationship with OW. He had resumed the affair less than a month after he moved back in with me. Not only that, it had been going on longer than he had told me. He had been leading a double life for two and a half years. One dated picture was of the two of them together while I was in England.....on our 35th wedding anniversary.

There was also evidence that pointed to him being involved with other women.

I told him to leave. He moved out that day.

I had no contact with hime for a few weeks during which time I did a lot of thinking. I decided that I could not just throw away 35 years of marriage. I contacted him and asked if he was willing to work on it. He said yes. We met and talked, really talked for probably the first time in our marriage. He agreed to work on our relationship. So, for a month or so, we met a couple of times a week at his place (he is renting a one-room apartment). We talked, read and did some exercises from a marriage book, and went swimming together a couple of times. He admitted to a cyber relationship with one woman besides OW, and also to actually meeting another for sex (after meeting him she changed her mind). I was hopeful that we could make things work, although I had told him up front that I didn’t know how I felt about him anymore and I didn’t think I could ever fully trust him again, but that we could work on being friends and see where it went. Anyway, it seemed fairly positive. I believe he was more honest than he has ever been with me. 

Which brings us to March. He was away with work for a week. I was away the next two over March Break. He picked me up at the airport, took me home and produced a crockpot meal he had put together for my daughter and me. Then he was away for work for another week. When he got back, he texted asking if he could come over and work on the house. He did. As he was leaving he set another time to come over and work. There had been a different tone to his texts. No ‘hi, how are you?’, just ‘can I come over at such a time’. That, plus the fact that he hadn’t worked on the house in months and now wanted to all of a sudden, had me wondering. So I asked if we were going to get together, just the two of us. He replied that he hadn’t planned on it and left. Next time he was over, I asked if we were still going to work on our relationship. He said he didn’t see the point. He likes being on his own. Its ‘peaceful’. (That was an interesting statement as it was so peaceful when he lived here it was like being in a coma ward.) I asked if he were back with OW. He denied it and from the disgusted look on his face, I believed him. I asked if he had met someone else he said no, but he ‘wouldn’t be surprised if there was someone else soon’. And he left.

He met OW and the other women online. I know he is still accessing Craigslist’s personals as I checked his internet history one day when he let me use his laptop.

You would think after all these years and the chances I’ve given him that I would be devastated. I’m not. I have down times, but nothing like the first time he left. I feel detached. Maybe the strong emotions will come. I don’t know. Its weird.

He was here most of yesterday, painting and replacing the doorknobs that have been off the inside doors for two years. Its obvious he wants to sell the house. I’m okay with that as I don’t want it. 

I am watching him with a mixture of disbelief that the man I married has become this person I don’t know and sadness because I think there will come a time when he will regret what he is doing. His children want nothing to do with him. Hopefully, they will reach a place where they can love their Dad again. I have not told them any details, just that he was back with OW, and I only told them that because it poured out on New Year’s Day after I found out. They had figured that all along (is the wife always the last to know?). They had actually tried to warn me a couple of times in the year he was back here, but I believed he was committed to us. Call me naive.

A last word about OW. When he left on New Year’s, he drove out to her place and confronted her about the package that was delivered to me. She denied doing it. He told her he never wanted to see her again. She retorted that she never wanted to see him again. On his way out, he went through the recycling bin and found copies of all the emails and texts that were in the package. He took them to the police and asked for a retraining order. They told him he didn’t have grounds for one.

I have had two phone calls from a woman I believe was her since he came back after leaving the first time. I think I posted about them. Since New Year’s I have had two emails to my work address (easy to find if you know which school board I work with). One was from a ‘man’ warning me that R was cheating. The second, last week, was supposedly from another teacher at my school saying she and her husband had seen R twice with another woman. The teacher whose name was signed isn’t married! I took it to the police. As there was no threat, there is nothing they can do. I texted R and said that OW is doing this to break us up, tell her we are no longer together and to leave me alone. I ended with ‘you created this problem, please fix it’.

OW may be headed for quite a fall. R’s credit card was compromised to the tune of almost $2000. He did not give her the numbers. She must have gone through his wallet. It was done through online purchases which can be traced to the delivery address. The credit card company is investigating. 

Sigh. Some men buy red convertibles or Harley's. My H wants to find a younger woman. That, apparently is what’s wrong with me. I’m old. Sad thing is, he is only just over a year behind me.

So, here I am. Another sad ending to add to the all-too-long list of failed marriages here on TAM. Thank you for all the support you have given me since my first wretched post. i know it gave some of you pleasure to think that my marriage was surviving amidst the sadness that is TAM and I am sorry to say it isn’t so. 

I am doing okay. I have an amazing friend who, along with his wife, has been so incredibly supportive and has helped me to see that, although I am not perfect and maybe could have done some things differently, none of this is a reflection of me as a person. And that is huge because that’s what I used to think.

Hope you are all doing well.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frosty,

I've thought of you many times during your silence.

But, you were too silent to be doing well.

That's not your style.

Getting older is particularly difficult on certain men. We sleep through our younger years and then suddenly feel like we aren't where we want to be.

While this happens to us after a matter of years, for some women it seems to be a weekly, or daily thing.

The easiest step is always to blame our partner. This is what he did - and continues to do.

Be well and realize your compassion and kindness weren't lost on anyone who read your posts here.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Frosty,
> 
> I've thought of you many times during your silence.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Conrad. Your words have always been comforting. Hope you are well.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> Thank you, Conrad. Your words have always been comforting. Hope you are well.


I know that's not entirely true. But, you are truly a kind spirit.

I realize we've been at odds over the value of exposing affairs for some time and I've seemed rather harsh.

Now that you've been on the receiving end of some serious exposure, I wonder what you think now?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I know that's not entirely true. But, you are truly a kind spirit.
> 
> I realize we've been at odds over the value of exposing affairs for some time and I've seemed rather harsh.
> 
> Now that you've been on the receiving end of some serious exposure, I wonder what you think now?


I did expose him to his brother and to a work colleague of his (who I’m sure passed the tidbit on) the first time round. I did it when situations came up where it was obvious they had no idea that he was even gone. This time, I don’t care who knows what. I don’t wish him ill. I feel sad that he will likely end up old, alone and lonely, but beyond that, I am so detached, it surprises me.

Sigh. We all start out with stars in our eyes and happily ever after in our hearts. Why do things go so wrong?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Frostflower said:


> I did expose him to his brother and to a work colleague of his (who I’m sure passed the tidbit on) the first time round. I did it when situations came up where it was obvious they had no idea that he was even gone. This time, I don’t care who knows what. I don’t wish him ill. I feel sad that he will likely end up old, alone and lonely, but beyond that, I am so detached, it surprises me.
> 
> Sigh. We all start out with stars in our eyes and happily ever after in our hearts. Why do things go so wrong?


Because life is often difficult.

You did read DeMello, right?

"I'm an ass, you're an ass"

Well, he clearly is an ass too.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Sad to have your latest update in such circumstances. I am here for you if there is anything I can do.

You did what you could to save the marriage. He didn't. For what it's worth, I think you had no option but to throw him out. Time to move on. I know it hurts but there will be good things in front of you.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frost,

I have wondered about you in my journey.

I'm sorry that you have had to endure such a protracted ending.

I know it sounds cliche, but you will shine even brighter without him. A wonderful new world awaits you.

Spun


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Hi Frosty, 

When I was going through my trial and tribulations with X during the last R attempt I used to think of your story to find hope. I thought ... If both want to work on it ... it can work. For a while it looked like things were working for you. I'm sorry that you found out he was still seeing OW. I know how much it hurts when you believe someone after they've hurt you only to find out they lied again. Be strong and know that you will be better without him.

I'm here for you. You have helped me a lot in my own journey. Thank you.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Yes, its me! Its been so long, hope I remember how to do this.

Two days ago would have been my wedding anniversary. Hmmm.....maybe it was. After all I am still legally married. Anyway, the day passed and I didn’t even think about it until my son asked “Isn’t today......?” Funny, after being with someone for so long, not to feel a thing. 

Anyway, I thought I would post an update for any of my friends who are still around. I am still so grateful for all the support I received here. You are not forgotten, any of you. 

In a nutshell, I am almost divorced. Just have to sign the papers. My STBX is having his lawyer rewrite some financial stuff, but apart from that, its nearly done. 

True to history, R did not mention the word ‘divorce’. Just before going out of town on business, he mentioned that his lawyer might contact me about a separation agreement. I didn’t hear anything until a couple of months later when my lawyer told me that the divorce papers were ready for my signature! It hurt. I knew we would be there eventually but, where I was expecting a separation agreement, this came out of the blue. 

Once the hurt passed, I realized that I was okay with it. I have moved on. I’ve been in my own place for seven months and am doing fine. Oh, I have moments of pain, loneliness and self-pity, but they are few and far between and they pass. I have an amazing friend who helps me through those moments and over any other bumps that appear in my road. With my friend’s help, I have come to realize that I am worthwhile. I am grateful beyond words for this friendship.

There is no animosity between R and me. He helped me move and was over a while ago to put up a couple of shelves for me. Its bizarre. The kids do not have much of a relationship with him. One son exchanges texts with him every so often. The other talked to R if they happened to be at the house at the same time, but that is about it. My daughter (who is still living with me) wants nothing to do with him. Hopefully, over time they can all rebuild their relationships with him. I don’t see or communicate with him often, and it will be even less often now that we have sold the house, but as I said I feel no animosity. I feel nothing, which surprises me. I missed him the first time he left, but not the second, and I still don’t. How do two people who loved each other and vowed to spend the rest of their lives together reach this state?


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Hi Frosty, 

Thanks for the update.

People change. Who he was when you got married is not who he is now. You've likely changed some too. And then of course some people don't take those vows as serious as they should. I now feel is not realistic to think two people can be happy and remain loyal your whole life. Usually one or the other has a change of heart and everything goes to ****. 

Friends ... are often more loyal and end up being companions for longer than a spouse. 

I'm glad you are doing ok.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Been a while since you posted.......glad you are doing ok.

As for your last question....well love is something of a lucky dip, and is never perfect. I certainly had no clue what I was really promising when I got married. Maybe it's good that we don't know the future sometimes


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Hi Frosty!

It has indeed been such a long time. It is good to hear that you are well and ok with how everything has turned out.

You are strong, trustworthy, good-hearted and have a lot of integrity. These are things your STBX sorely lacks. Your children know this and it shows in their relationship with him. It is disappointing. But that is what happens when someone is selfish, cheats and walks out the door to go live with a looney tunes AP. 

Things are never the same afterwards. Maybe eventually things will get better. I wouldn't count on him having a 'good' relationship with them. He doesn't seem to be the type to put a lot of effort into mending things.

As Wazza has alluded to many times, a cheating spouse can help rebuild a relationship over time, but it takes a lot of effort and nurturing. Without those things a love will surely die and then you are sadly left with...nothing, as you have found.

Friends can be a great comfort. It times like these they can be invaluable. 

Have you and your friends done any traveling lately? Any big future plans?


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