# Defining what I want



## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Hello ladies,

I'm not sure if this is the proper place or maybe it should be in the General Relationships forum but I am predominantly looking for female feedback. (Especially you SA after seeing your post in the "Men can't love" thread). What happened to that thread anyway?

Anyway. As some of you may be aware I am struggling majorly with our sex life. The longer this goes on the more I am realizing that it isn't necessarily the sex act itself or the quantity, though the more the better!!  

What I am struggling with is defining for my wife, what I really need. She is affectionate with me (kisses hello/goodbye, hugs, holding hands, etc), so it isn't necessarily just affection.

She says that she feels that she shows her love for me and she doesn't get what is missing. And she does, I don't doubt her love for me. But what I really think I need is for her to WANT me. Whenever I try to explain it, I think she thinks I mean to want me in her life or something, which isn't the issue. I want her to desire me. Obviously sex is the long-term outcome and one way of expressing that she wants me but I honestly think we could do it everyday and I still wouldn't feel desired in our current situation.

Am I wrong in wanting this? Is it just MY insecurities that are the issue? Is it a "mid-life crisis" thing? (I don't generally believe in those bye the way). It is consuming me lately and I hate it.

Thanks.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi frustr8d ~

It is not wrong to want your spouse to desire you. However, if the reason you have that longing is to fill some void inside of yourself - to validate yourself as a person - then I think that yes, it can be wrong. Because I don't think a spouse can really fill up a hole that needs to be filled up by you. Does that make sense? You then create resentment toward your spouse for something that is not their fault at all.

"_Quality begins on the inside... and then works its way out_." ~Bob Moawad


Here's another thing to contemplate: Women, as you have probably already found out, are much different than men in regard to sexual desire. If your wife is a LD gal (like me!), then she is likely not thinking about sex to the same degree that you are. There's nothing wrong with her - she's just different than you. She has so much less testosterone in her body (dribbles) compared to the flood that you have. You would get a lot more peace if you could accept her the way she is.

“_When you find peace within yourself, you become the kind of person who can live at peace with others_.” ~ Peace Pilgrim 


Alas, as a wife, I believe she should be more open and willing to try and accept your need, even if she can't truly understand it. But, for many people that just takes time. It takes time - some more than others - to figure out that the thing between your ears is the biggest sex organ. 

Wishing you the best.


btw, I think the original poster must have deleted their "men can't love" thread. It was a very good, poignant thread, I agree.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Enchantment,

Thanks for the response.

I don't think I need it to feel validated as a person. I think I am a pretty good person, husband, and father. Not perfect by any stretch but on the better side of us male pigs.  However, there may be some truth to it that it might help me feel a little more like a "man", if that makes any sense. I'm not overly "manly" in many aspects. Most sports bore me ( I am certainly not really into any of them). I have a hard time relating to a lot of other men, I am a bit of a geek.

As for her, she is not LD, she is ZD or ND (Zero or No drive).  I am trying hard to accept this but it wasn't always the case. Not to mention that every time I bring this up here I get the standard "She doesn't not want sex, she doesn't want it with YOU" crap. Which, of course, makes me question it. Of course I also have an extremely high drive so it makes it that much worse. I am certainly willing to accept that it is something I am doing/have done but she cannot define it for me. She claims everything is wonderful.

In some cases she is trying and I give her credit for that (as posted on other threads). But that is only once we are in the act itself. Getting there is... dunno. It is like "Oh I guess we could 'be together'". She doesn't say it exactly that way but that is about the enthusiasm/feeling I get from it.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

No it's not wrong for you to want her to want you, to need her to need you (great, now I am gonna have that song stuck on my head)  BUT can I ask... are you meeting all of her needs? Especially emotional ones? Iknow that my libido suffers if I am not getting affection (emotional and otherwise) from my partner.

Women tie sex into their emotions.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Enchantment,
> 
> Thanks for the response.
> 
> ...


Men aren't pigs - not all of them, at any rate. 

You don't have to be in to sports and all athletic and sweaty to be attractive to women. It doesn't matter if you are a geek or a gearhead. If you can be the BEST man that you can be, the most confident, the most self-assured, and you are a man of character and integrity - well, I don't know what women doesn't find that attractive.

Think about what you can do to be the best man that you can be - think about what kinds of hobbies or projects that you could pursue that would fill you with some kind of purpose and zest. Maybe one of the guys will chime in on the thread too and give some male input here to help give you direction and ideas.

I'm thinking if she's zero drive, then there's something that's missing for her. Do you playfully pursue her? My H flirts and caresses and tries to make me feel like a million bucks every day. But he does it in kind of a really confident (it's a little bit ****y, actually) manner that I find appealing. So, even if I am much lower drive (he is a very high drive man), I am willing to let him "get me in the mood" whenever he wants to take a whirl. Are you able to arouse your wife prior to sex? Does she orgasm most of the time? She sounds like she needs to be seduced.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Most men want to be desired and wanted. I read that in the book his needs her needs. And it's not enough to be a warm body men want it to be enjoyable for both otherwise that need is not met. 

So no you are not wrong for wanting that you are just a very normal man.

I have no idea how to convince a ZD spouse to get on board with that though.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

I was married for 23 years, then divorced for 4, and now remarried. I FINALLY get what I was missing!!! ALL those years.... I needed to feel WANTED, DESIRED.... I don't think I knew that at the time, or couldn't articulate it (and certainly didn't get it). Sex was once a week, and I THOUGHT it was pretty good altho I'd have liked it more often. 

Now.... I've found the right man! We have constant affection, constant flirting, touching, talking, laughing... and LOTS of really, REALLY hot sex! What I thought was pretty good....wasn't even close! Turns out I was missing things I didn't even KNOW I was missing! 

And ya, like you....I was fine with myself, but not really fine with the marriage being that way. I KNEW it could be better, just not what to do about it. Ex leaving was one of the best things that ever happened to me!!!

I don't have any advise for you.... but I can sympathize with ya!


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## Hubby01 (Jul 5, 2011)

Hey Frustrated, I feel for you man.

I'm in a very similar boat and I know I'm not looking for validation, I too think I'm a pretty decent guy with most things going for me.

I have a minimal drive wife who is purely reactive when it comes to sex. She NEVER initiates and yet hates it if I ask or attempt to initiate. So much so that we're trying to have a another baby and even then sex isn't on her radar. A couple of months ago I ignored the whole sex issue and on day 19 or 20 of her cycle I get a "when can I get pregnant again?" (asking when she is ripe this cycle, not for the next one)

I think the hardest thing for me is knowing she absolutely loves sex 2 or 3 times a month in a 3 or 4 day window and then refuses basically all contact for the next 25 days.

I hear lots of answers like "just go with the flow" or "now just isn't the right time" and lots of "I'm sick" or "I'm tired". These are ALL excuses and are almost NEVER the actual reason she's not interested. Just last week she was home "sick" from work for a day, she rang the cleaner and told her not to come in and cleaned the house herself. That night when I found out I ask why......

"well I was home and I wasn't that sick, so I got it done"

If I asked 5 minutes later if she wanted some lovin' I would have been told "I'm sick" though.


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## grizabella (May 8, 2011)

What was it like in her family of origin? Were they open about sex and affection or were they repressed. How did her Mom treat her dad? This is not to say all behavior is set in stone but early experiences can stay with us a long time.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Ugh I am rehashing all of this again. As far as I know I meet all of her needs. She tells me I do and she is very content. (Which is probably part of the problem. I know "man-up" blah blah).

Yes I try to flirt with her, "seduce" her, whatever. She has no interest. Nothing turns her on, she has no fantasies, doesn't masterbate that I know of.

I didn't mean to imply that I had to be into sports to be attractive. All I meant was that for as extremely high as my libido is, I am a pretty sensitive guy and not all that aggressive/assertive. So explain that to me..  I do have some pretty low self-esteem which I am sure is a turn-off but nothing I have tried fixes that. I've been to counseling, etc and it doesn't change.

I am still convinced that there is something I am doing/have done but she won't tell me or doesn't know so I am flapping in the breeze. I thought maybe it was my weight (I had gained a little) so we have been doing P90 for 3 months and I am probably in the best shape I have been since she has known me and that hasn't changed anything.

Character and integrity are not my problem. Granted, I am not the most confident guy in the world and am pretty self-deprecating but her lack of interest in me doesn't help that any. Aside from that I think I am actually a pretty decent catch. About average looking but loyal, dedicated, and pretty easy going.

grizabella,

Her family is pretty strict Catholic and sex was really never discussed. However, she was not this way when we were first together. In fact at the time she was probably higher drive than I was. It has gotten progressively worse since our first daughter was born.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

How old is your wife? How long since your daughter was born?

One thing - you do realize/understand/accept that your wife's drive is different than yours, right? Because of that, she may not ever be the kind who is "hot to trot", so to speak. Women's drives are very complex. There is a biological component to it - the hormonal aspect. Since women have substantially lower testosterone they do not have the kinds of drives men do. Then there is the emotional aspect of it, which all sorts of things in your wife's life, including you, impact.

Low sex drive in women - MayoClinic.com

Maybe I am not totally understanding. Is your wife WILLING to have sex with you? You mention quality being lacking. Is it that you are wanting her to be coming after you, panting so to speak? Have you thought that maybe many of the things that she does outside of sex could be her way of showing you she cares about you? What is she like when you do have sex? Are you able to arouse her? Is she satisfied?

I'm just worried that you could be asking something of your wife - her actions - that she isn't able to give.

I am a LD wife. We have a lot of sex. I am not a "hot to trot" kind of babe. I am very independent minded and am not going to fawn over him or grope him or chase him around the house (only very occasionally.) It took my husband some time, but he accepts this, and is now much happier and more satisfied with what we have. I also had to accept him too - I had to accept his higher drive needs, and we had to meet somewhere in the middle. That's what marriage is about. Sometimes we need to look at our expectations of our spouse and determine whether they are realistic.

"_I don't have expectations. Expectations in your life just lead to giant disappointments_." ~ Michael Landon 


Sometimes we need to learn when it's the time to accept. You familiar with the 'Serenity Prayer'?

_God grant me the serenity 
to accept the things I cannot change; 
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference._


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

She is 44 now, our oldest is 12.

Of course I understand her drive is different but it isn't just her drive that has disappeared, she has nearly become anti-sex.

Yes she is "willing" but that is the thing. I'm "willing" to mow the lawn but I f'ing hate it. Yes, as I mentioned before, most of everything she does for me is her way of showing that she cares, I am well aware of that. And I know I should be content that she takes great care of me and the girls.

She has been working on being more relaxed during the act yes. For years, I cannot say she was satisfied no. I don't see how she could have been because it was basically "hurry up and get it over with". (No, she did not say that). And I don't think she cared if she was satisfied. Now that she is slowly warming back up to oral and such she does get there, yes.

I am not expecting her to fawn over me or want to jump my bones but heck a "let's make love" vs "I guess we can do it" type of mentality would go a looong freakin' way.

I also realize that part of this is my esteem issue. But I really don't think it is too much to ask to show a little desire for me.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

You guys ever do any marriage counseling to try and re-connect?

If you know you have self-esteem issues, does she also sense them? Does she feel pressured to have sex with you? Like she can never quite measure up, becomes dissatisfied because you are, then just decides to give up?

What about what she needs from you? Ever explored His Needs, Her Needs?

These are all just shots in the dark since I'm not in your wife's head. 

I still think it would benefit you, and her, tremendously if you could work on your esteem issues to become more confident, capable, authoritative. Those character qualities are SO very attractive to women.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

She won't do MC. As I said, she says she is very happy and doesn't see a problem.

Yes, I know my self-deprecation bothers her. But as I have stated, I have been working on it for about 20 years to no avail. I don't know what is going to fix that.

Yes, I want to read His Needs, Her Needs and Passionate Marriage but again, she tells me all her needs are met and she is content. Am I supposed to mind-read what is missing?

As for your question about feeling pressured/can't measure up, probably. But if I stop asking we might drop to never and I think she would be fine with that, I won't.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> she says she is very happy and doesn't see a problem.
> 
> she tells me all her needs are met and she is content.


These comments would hurt me to the core. Does she not get that there are TWO people in a marriage? It's not just all about how happy SHE is.

Maybe you need to stop meeting some of those needs if she has this attitude. Maybe she needs to see what it feels like to not be so happy. Sorry for being snarky but this makes her just come across as a bit selfish.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

magnoliagal,

I know it comes across that way but I honestly don't think that is it. I think she is utterly unaware that I am not happy. That is what started this thread. I don't know how to get through to her on this aspect of it. She says that I should know that she loves me (and I do) and she doesn't see how her lack of desire for me hurts me. In fact, I don't think she sees it as a lack of desire for me. I think she sees her taking care of me as her showing her love/desire for me.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Well, I will say this - she isn't going to change if she doesn't want to. If she's completely happy with the status quo and is unwilling to try and work on anything, then nothing will change unless you shake it up to wake her up.

Did you ever go to the Men's Clubhouse and seek advice from the guys? Ever go through the following sticky or MEM"s thermostat/barometer thread, and not just tried things here and there, but actually taken it to heart and committed to improving yourself? Because even if your spouse is unwilling to work on things, you still can - and not by bending over backwards for them, but by simply improving you.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


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## Doni (Feb 12, 2011)

I am with SunnyT on this one. My ex's called me frigid, and I thought I was. I could care LESS about sex after we got together. I thought it was ALL me. In a way it was... I had a need that went unfulfilled. Then I met the man who is now my husband. Whoa! I am ready to tackle him, 24/7, whether he needs it or not!!!! LOL He laughs at the thought of me ever being considered frigid!

Whats the difference? A typical day in married life starts out like it did when we had our first sleepover. A loving lengthy kiss, and a good morning said with loving emotion. Not a peck and a mornin' mumbled thru morning breath. 
That continues throughout the day. 
He will come up behind me while I am doing dishes and kiss me 'like I like' on my neck. He does it with the enthusiasm of "lets get naked" BUT he walks away, expecting nothing. It was an expression of his desire for me, just showing me, with no strings attached.
We will be passing in the hall and he grabs me and lays a passionate one on me somewhere, lingers long enough to make sure I know its heartfelt, and then lets me go on my way.
He will get up from his favorite show on tv to find me where ever I am in the house, to tell me he loves me, and to kiss my hand, or the top of my head, and then go back to his tv. 

These are examples. I never had this before. Funny that he says he never did this with his exs. I don't know what inspired it in him with me. But I know what it did to me! He doesn't just reach for me or show me attention when he wants 'some', like my exs did. That made me feel I was only important to them when they had a hard on. I cried after sex with them because I felt like an in-house wh ore.
My man makes me feel cherished and desirable. He touches me all through the day, when he can physically... and uses texts and calls when he is gone, to show me affection.

He thanks me for every meal I cook, for making the magic refilled dresser drawers, for warming the home with my being in it, etc. I will never ever get tired of hearing how much he appreciates what I do for him, and I know he will never act like its my 'job' and take it all for granted.

Because of this, I have no problem in telling him what a Stud he is. How hott I think he is, how much I desire him, appreciate how he takes care of me, the things he does for me. Its EASY to show him I love him. I WANT to take care of him and spoil him.

But I must say, he gets all the credit for keeping the pump primed in me! I am many things, but frigid is not one of them! My man makes me always feel like a sensuous desirable woman.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Frustrated Hubby: I know I put this link in that thread This is What a Sexless Marriage Feels Like - And yet - Open Salon Maybe this will help you explain to her how it makes you "feel" when she has zero desire for you. Not that any of this is going to help, it will likely just put pressure on her. I think this is one of the #1 reasons men fall into cheating, sorry to say! Countless husbands feel as you and I do not believe they are all at fault. 

I have personal friends, known them since high school, he is a good christian man & father, hard worker, there for his family in every day, gives her everything-she loves him & needs him -but NOT sexually. She told me once she rejected him and he cried in front of her. I asked her how that made her feel, and she starts defending herself like she just doesn't "feel it". Well I am not one to not say what was on my mind. I let her know HOW it feels, even told her if I was married to her, I would leave her! Obviously you are a very very very patient man. I am not sure how my friend's husbands hangs on. Good men! These wives do not know how blessed they freaking are. 

A true sexless marraige is less than 10 times a year, do you qualify? 

That was Catherines thread, she must have deleted it. I am not sure what I might have said that you was referring too. 

I like what SunnyT said. There really is NOTHING like swimming in desire for your spouse and FEELING this from them in response, wanting you just as much. This is passion and it is live-giving. It feels the soul, and puts us on a high. 

To not have this is devestating. I feel for you tremendously and what you go through day to day. A giving lover is good, BUT..... a GIVING Lover who also "wants theres", who is compelled to pleausure you all over cause it does something FOR THEM, can anything be more sweeter. 

Maybe I am bit too sexually minded (I know I am) but I count that on my top 5 things in life I personally NEED, or I know me all too well, I would NOT  be happy. Enchantment would be horrified to hear me say this, but I count it a "deal breaker" for me.

My husband is similar to me in one way, in the fact he NEEDS to know I am enjoying it , wanting to be there with him, He has told me before he would have been beside himself if I couldn't orgasm -like how could he enjoy it ! (thankfully I never had this problem). He has ALWAYS needed my desire. Problem was -all he had to do is get me started back then. He wouldn't leave me over it -that is where we are different. I could NEVER remain in a sexless of mercy sexed marraige. THIS simply means too much to me. 

IT does for some, I don't think this makes them bad people. Your love language is likely physical touch, that coupled with a High Sex drive. You add being a caring emotional man to these 2 things - it equals someone who NEEDS this from the one they love. Anything less will be hollow -unless you surpress it, or resentment sets in trying to live without it, knowing it is the cry of your heart. 

For a time I questioned my husbands desire for me (but the truth was I was wearing him out) , I did not handle this very well, I was very very emotional about it. That was my *Mid Life crisis.* I think this may be harder on women than men generally though, as us women are known for being too emotional and we EXPECT this from our men. 

You sound like such a darn Good guy ! I love your type! My husband also cares NOTHING for sports, love him for that caues I find them all boring anyway. I hate football, all I care to see is the commercials -if that. I always wondered why God gave me so many sons cause neither of us care a thing about sports. All I ever did was some gymnastics & he lived on his bike in his teens. So far we have 2 cross country runners , so I guess our sons are making thier own way - without our sporting example.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Maybe I am bit too sexually minded (I know I am) but I count that on my top 5 things in life I personally NEED, or I know me all too well, I would NOT be happy. Enchantment would be horrified to hear me say this, but I count it a "deal breaker" for me.


@ SA ~

Nope, not horrified at all. More like jealous that I don't have the kind of physical boost and personality type that allow me to be more raring to go.  But, there are all kinds of people. And that is good!

@OP ~
In marriage, the key is being willing to work with each other. I think there are two things I am taking from this thread and the responses:

1) Your wife likely has needs (some sexual, some not) that really aren't getting met. Most of the time people can NOT articulate these in to words because they are often emotions and feelings.

2) You have some things you can work on to improve yourself. And you may have to push yourself and your wife in ways that you haven't before. You will have to decide how big of a push you are willing to do.

Waiting around, hoping for a change, isn't likely to engender any change in her.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

SA I'm with you it's a dealbreaker to me too. While I do wish we had more sex the sex we do have is mutally enjoyable and I know he wants me. I don't think I could handle what OP is going through.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

SA, thanks for chiming in.

Enchantment,

I have made this analogy before. I have already tried to make changes. We have been working out. I have tried to be less touchy/gropy. I have tried to "man-up" and be a little less available, etc. The self-esteem thing is a struggle, I have been working on for years. I don't have a solution.

With that being said, again, if I don't know what the problem is, what am I working on? It is like changing the tires on my car hoping my oil light goes out. Wrong diagnoses, wrong cure.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

The thing is.... when one spouse doesn't think there is a problem, even if you try to tell them that there is.... they are not inclined to try to improve the relationship. Why should they? (Edited to add SOME spouses don't understand that if one person has a problem in the relationship, then the RELATIONSHIP has problems. Some like to think "It's his/her problem, not mine". 

I just replied to another post... but its too long to post again I think. Basically it was about me going to marriage counseling alone...because ex "didn't have any problems" with me or himself or the marriage. It only took me one visit to grasp her message, what the counselor told me was (in a nutshell) "YOU have choices. Either decide that you can live this way.... or decide that you cannot. YOU are the one that needs to change YOUR life if YOU have a problem that the spouse can't see." 

Soooooo..... YOU choose to live with it like it is (cuz it isn't going to change), or YOU decide the next direction for YOU. It's all on YOU.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

SunnyT,

I know. That is where I am at I think and it sucks.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Yep.... it sucks. Not a "flip a coin" kind of decision. Just be okay with yourself. Make sure that, in your mind, you've done everything you can to make things ok. And then, IF you can't make things ok (and really....sometimes you just can't).... then you will be alright in the long run.

I got lucky. Ex made the decision for me. Which at the time totally flabbergasted me. "OMFG... YOU are leaving me??? You've got it made here." LOL In the long run.... life is a zillion times more awesome now!


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Well that the even "funnier" part. I thought that after my first wife left. It ended up being the best thing for me after meeting my current wife. Now I have a good marriage and a wonderful family so this is even more of a struggle.

I really think I need to just suck it up but it gets more difficult every year..


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## frustated (Jun 24, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Enchantment,
> 
> Thanks for the response.
> 
> ...


Sound very familiar, my W says ok a few times a week but she also says hurry up? It really sucks to not feel desired by the women we chose to live the rest of our lives with. You are not alone!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

In one sense this couldn't be any simpler. And that is this: When your partner REALLY TRULY prioritizes you, 3 things are consistently true:
1. They are willing to make an effort to please you. If something is important to you it BECOMES important to them
2. They work equally hard not to DISplease you.
3. Generally speaking they get pleasure, happiness and satisfaction from doing things they KNOW make you feel happy/fullfilled

I am going to inject some balance into this where sex is concerned. And I can do so with a totally straight face because "WE" are going through menopause and it is disruptive to our sex life. 

First off I would have to say my W is an incredibly kind / loving / considerate partner. So I have actually followed her lead. Yep. That is what I have done. I truly treat her the same way I would want to be treated were I the LD partner. And she definitely treats me the way SHE would want to be treated if she were the HD partner. 

That said, she comes to bed with a loving, kind heart whether or not she feels lust. And I generally ask for a LOT less because I would not like feeling pressured if I was not feeling lust. I am sure if she felt a lot of steady pressure she would feel great resentment. And I say with certainty that if she seemed in any way indifferent to my needs we would have a big problem. 

I think it helps a LOT that she knows I like her a great deal and love her a great deal just as a person. Separate from sex. 

Sometimes I say - "hey we are pals" - at which point she threatens to log into "concubines.com" and procure a playmate for me. 

I am NOT indifferent to any of her high priorities - my personal list of high priorities is short and I would not be cool if she seemed not to care. I do however accept that the lust thing is hard to directly control. 









frustr8dhubby said:


> Hello ladies,
> 
> I'm not sure if this is the proper place or maybe it should be in the General Relationships forum but I am predominantly looking for female feedback. (Especially you SA after seeing your post in the "Men can't love" thread). What happened to that thread anyway?
> 
> ...


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