# Should spying/snooping on your spouse be illegal?



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Why or why not?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

No, not illegal.

If you're certain they're carrying on an affair, then no. You have a right to know things like that, as it may affect your actual life. I wasted - _wasted_ - several years of my life that I'll never get back while my wife was in an affair (that she eventually ended the marriage for). If I had found out, I at least would have had those 2 years back. I was FAR more angry about the wasted years than I ever was about the actual marriage ending.

If it's spying or snooping on them for your own gratification (sexual or otherwise), then it shouldn't be illegal, per se, but you really should re-think your life, IMO.

For example, setting up a hidden camera to film your spouse masturbating, or having sex with you - without their knowledge - is reprehensible behaviour. They are supposed to trust you.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Oh for heaven's sake. The last thing we need is to spend tax payer money on prosecuting morons in moronic marriages. Let people be stupid on their own.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Are you thinking of snooping on Dug?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> Are you thinking of snooping on Dug?


No, not at all. It is a discussion question, no more, no less.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Depending on what you define as spying or snooping it already is in many jurisdictions under stalking. 

Looking at your wife's phone wouldn't be in and of itself. 

But looking at the phone to get her schedule, following her around town, consistent checking up on her with phone calls, gps tracker, iPhone apps and hidden cameras that she has no knowledge of. 

It's a slippery slope


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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Oh for heaven's sake. The last thing we need is to spend tax payer money on prosecuting morons in moronic marriages.* Let people be stupid on their own.*


*
*


Agree with the first part but if you are saying that anyone who does not happen to share your philosophy on open marriage is a moron for snooping to find out if they are being betrayed then you are full of ****.

there are a lot of people out here who have been devastated and a lot who would have been if they had not snooped and you have no business calling anyone a moron.

There are probably a hell of a lot more people out here who think open marriage is moronic than who think snooping on a cheating spouse is moronic. 

Making it illEGAL is crazy, and you have every right to any type marriage you want. But you have no business calling out anyone who tries to protect themselves and their families.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

straightshooter said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Agree with the first part but if you are saying that anyone who does not happen to share your philosophy on open marriage is a moron for snooping to find out if they are being betrayed then you are full of ****.


If they are being betrayed, then they are not in an open marriage, they are being cheated on.



> there are a lot of people out here who have been devastated and a lot who would have been if they had not snooped and you have no business calling anyone a moron.
> 
> There are probably a hell of a lot more people out here who think open marriage is moronic than who think snooping on a cheating spouse is moronic.
> 
> Making it illEGAL is crazy, and you have every right to any type marriage you want. But you have no business calling out anyone who tries to protect themselves and their families.


I could not care less if people snoop or don't. Just keep it out of the courts.


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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

NobodySpecial;16431874[B said:


> ]If they are being betrayed, then they are not in an open marriage, they are being cheated o[/B]n.
> 
> And how do they find that out, ask the spouse who is cheating????
> 
> I could not care less if people snoop or don't. Just keep it out of the courts.


Bingo. That would be moronic with a 20 trillion deficit as it is


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

In the eyes of the law, a married couple is one person. How can one spy on themselves??


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

No, shouldn't be illegal. But, if your relationship has arrived to a point where there's no trust, and you have to snoop and follow the person to get the truth, it might be time to move on.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If you hack your spouse's password protected device without their permission, it is illegal in most places, and may be a felony. If convicted you could spend years in prison. Evidence found wouldn't be admissible in court for divorce purposes, either, and if your spouse finds out, you could be subject to civil as well as criminal proceedings.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> Depending on what you define as spying or snooping it already is in many jurisdictions under stalking.
> 
> Looking at your wife's phone wouldn't be in and of itself.
> 
> ...


Then PIs hired to do just that are illegal as well.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I know of at least one state in the US that requires married people to have thesigned acknowledgement when they are buying property.

It's nice that the government has the power to do that.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> If you hack your spouse's password protected device without their permission, it is illegal in most places, and may be a felony. If convicted you could spend years in prison. Evidence found wouldn't be admissible in court for divorce purposes, either, and if your spouse finds out, you could be subject to civil as well as criminal proceedings.


That evidence can be used in defense against child abuse or spouse abuse allegations.


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> Depending on what you define as spying or snooping it already is in many jurisdictions under stalking.
> 
> Looking at your wife's phone wouldn't be in and of itself.
> 
> ...


I agree with this.

I think that short term snooping shouldn't be illegal (to confirm infidelity) but when you start crossing the line into stalking. . . 

Also, spying like that is emotional abuse. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> I think that short term snooping shouldn't be illegal (to confirm infidelity) but when you start crossing the line into stalking. . .
> 
> ...


That should fall under general abuse. On the radio, a woman said that her husband figured out the mileage to and from her work. If she went over those miles, there was hell to pay. She said he checked everyday.

I get tired of separating behaviors carried out with technology from those that aren't. It's abuse either way.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> Then PIs hired to do just that are illegal as well.


Yes and have arrested them for such. Again depends on the totality of circumstances
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

No, but cheating should be.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

TX-SC said:


> No, but cheating should be.


This 100%

It used to be 

unfortunately to do so we would need a jail on every corner for the current society we live in. And no one would want to pay for that. I
Do think it should have a real consequence though because it currently has none
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

*


*Deidre* said:



No, shouldn't be illegal. But, if your relationship has arrived to a point where there's no trust, and you have to snoop and follow the person to get the truth, it might be time to move on.

Click to expand...

*
So you actually believe that a married couple with 5 kids where one spouse is staying out all night, locking their phone, and doing all sorts of disappearing that the other spouse should just walk away without bothering to find out what is going on rather than snoop.

What planet are you on????


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

straightshooter said:


> So you actually believe that a married couple with 5 kids where one spouse is staying out all night, locking their phone, and doing all sorts of disappearing that the other spouse should just walk away without bothering to find out what is going on rather than snoop.
> 
> What planet are you on????


You really need to 'snoop' to know what's going on? lol Hmmm, if your spouse is out all night, locking their phone and disappearing, odds are, they're cheating. You'd want to read the horrible details? Then snoop, I guess. I'd not be having anymore kids with such a person, and would be hiring a lawyer. I live on earth.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Evinrude58 said:


> In the eyes of the law, a married couple is one person. How can one spy on themselves??


The same argument has been made to justify marital rape, that you're now one. 

But clearly you can rape your spouse.

Having said that, I wouldn't make it illegal, though I would make it illegal to get intimate video of your spouse without their knowledge. That can wreck lives and can be abused.

But if you're at the point of spying you're in real trouble.

I can say that if my hb decided to spy on me he'd better hope he finds something.....which he won't. Because if I find out the marriage is over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

She's on the incredibly fun "Cut and Dry, I'm still dating" planet. Things change when you have time and kids. I harbor no Ill will towards her because I felt the same way until I was married.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> She's on the incredibly fun "Cut and Dry, I'm still dating" planet. Things change when you have time and kids. I harbor no Ill will towards her because I felt the same way until I was married.


lol 

Why would you stay in a marriage with someone who doesn't respect you, doesn't love you and keeps cheating? Because of kids? What is this teaching kids? That when you get married, you need to forget about having self respect and dignity?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Evinrude58 said:


> In the eyes of the law, a married couple is one person. How can one spy on themselves??


Wow, this is out of date legally.

When that was true, there was no such thing as "marital rape".


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Should cheating be illegal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> lol
> 
> Why would you stay in a marriage with someone who doesn't respect you, doesn't love you and keeps cheating? Because of kids? What is this teaching kids? That when you get married, you need to forget about having self respect and dignity?


So what if the kids don't know about the cheating? Is it better for the kids to grow up in a 2 parent household even if the parents are cheaters but the kids don't know? I'm always torn on this. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> So what if the kids don't know about the cheating? Is it better for the kids to grow up in a 2 parent household even if the parents are cheaters but the kids don't know? I'm always torn on this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


If your spouse is having an ongoing affair, and isn't going to stop it, or if he/she stops the one affairs, and starts another, at some point, the betrayed spouse would have to start lying to the kids as to where the cheating parent is, I'd imagine. That's not a good thing, and I get why people stay married, I know I make it sound easy to just leave, but at some point, if you're lying to cover your cheating spouses' tracks so your kids don't know what the spouse is doing, then what do you really have?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Should cheating be illegal?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey, start your own thread.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> lol
> 
> Why would you stay in a marriage with someone who doesn't respect you, doesn't love you and keeps cheating? Because of kids? What is this teaching kids? That when you get married, you need to forget about having self respect and dignity?


Like I said Cut and dry. What if it is your own idiocy and you need counseling? What if she is being sexually harassed and doesn't know how to tell you? What if there is a false accusation floating around and he doesn't know how to tell you? What if it is a serious health issue? What if it is just truly venting? There are other things in a marriage besides respect, honor and love. Sometimes there is fear, loathing and other issues, which do not affect either of the first three examples I mentioned.

Sure, on paper and in theory, there are better ways to approach life's turmoils, but we are emotional human being who react irrationally at times. I'm not blowing up a marriage without definitive proof and truth, which is something I taught my kids. Don't make an erroneous decision off of half truths and innuendos. Make sure you know as much as you can, then make a calculated and emotionless decision one way or the other.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Like I said Cut and dry. What if it is your own idiocy and you need counseling? What if she is being sexually harassed and doesn't know how to tell you? What if there is a false accusation floating around and he doesn't know how to tell you? What if it is a serious health issue? What if it is just truly venting? There are other things in a marriage besides respect, honor and love. Sometimes there is fear, loathing and other issues, which do not affect either of the first three examples I mentioned.


 So, what does this have to do with cheating? The thread is about snooping and spying because you suspect cheating. 



> Sure, on paper and in theory, there are better ways to approach life's turmoils, but we are emotional human being who react irrationally at times. I'm not blowing up a marriage


 If spouses are cheating, THEY blew it up. 



> without definitive proof and truth, which is something I taught my kids.


 And what I've seen on here is even with proof, people are afraid to leave. I understand it as much as I can. It's hard to divorce, it's not an easy thing, but staying in a lie of a marriage would be harder. Maybe it's not harder for some, I don't know.



> Don't make an erroneous decision off of half truths and innuendos.


 agree


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jld said:


> Hey, start your own thread.


That's a direct contribution to the discussion in this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> That's a direct contribution to the discussion in this thread.


I'm just teasing you. 

I do think it could be its own focused thread, though. It is certainly a big enough topic.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jld said:


> I'm just teasing you.
> 
> I do think it could be its own focused thread, though. It is certainly a big enough topic.


To be clear, my answer to both questions would be "No".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> To be clear, my answer to both questions would be "No".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And the followup question was: Why or why not?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I am glad to have snooped. I needed to know that I wasn't crazy.

It was also illuminating as I was able to match his interactions with me with those he was having his special friend. A lot of times people will say, ahh, that doesn't mean anything, when it actually it does.

I think a very good indicator as to whether someone is worth staying with is whether that person makes an issue of your snnoping or not. Mine did not.

And so we're still together.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jld said:


> And the followup question was: Why or why not?


Round and round we go. It's the same old discussion rehashed over and over and over again, though usually in replies to threads that weren't explicitly aimed at the debate itself.

Anyway, see @NobodySpecial's earlier reply for a decent enough summary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> I am glad to have snooped. I needed to know that I wasn't crazy.
> 
> It was also illuminating as I was able to match his interactions with me with those he was having his special friend. A lot of times people will say, ahh, that doesn't mean anything, when it actually it does.
> 
> ...


Well said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> So, what does this have to do with cheating? The thread is about snooping and spying because you suspect cheating.


Are you sure? 




> Should spying/snooping on your spouse be illegal?
> Why or why not?


There is nothing in the OP which states snooping and spying cheating only. It is what people went to in their own posts. It is in the general area of the forum, not CWI, I answered your question with general reasons.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing in the OP which states snooping and spying cheating only. It is what people went to in their own posts. It is in the general area of the forum, not CWI, I answered your question with general reasons.


Fair enough, I suppose someone could snoop because there seems to be something going on with their spouse, and the spouse isn't sharing. I don't believe in snooping, never have done that. Many people snoop in dating situations or relationships outside of marriage, I don't think it's something that strikes in marriage, personally. Why not just ask your spouse what's up?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing in the OP which states snooping and spying cheating only. It is what people went to in their own posts. It is in the general area of the forum, not CWI, I answered your question with general reasons.


There are other forms of cheating than adultery.

A drug or gambling addiction that dries up the household finances is cheating. 

I think any use of substantial amounts of money without prior discussion is cheating.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't think its a simple question. Being married provides certain rights (financial, medical authority if incapacitated etc), but not others (eg spousal rape is (and should be) illegal. Its not at all obvious where spying / snooping fits in this.

I'm a fan of getting rid of "marriage" and replacing it with a set of different "contracts" that cover the very different things that are all lumped together as marriage. In that case a couple could decide whether or not spying was allowed in their contract.

For existing marriage, I would prefer that marriage not eliminate privacy rights and the allowed levels of spying be the same as for any two people. I can see the other side though.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> There are other forms of cheating than adultery.
> 
> A drug or gambling addiction that dries up the household finances is cheating.
> 
> I think any use of substantial amounts of money without prior discussion is cheating.


This has nothing to do with my response to the OP or Dedire, but I know and okay. I'm not defining, arguing, questioning or parsing what is or is not cheating. I was discussing spying and snooping in relation to why it should or shouldn't be illegal, while responding to Dedire's and straightshooters' comments.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Should cheating be illegal?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, but it sure should be a consideration in divorce. It should affect the division of assets.

I'm opposed to alimony in nearly all cases. But alimony to a cheating ex spouse is an atrocity.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> I don't think it's something that strikes in marriage, personally. Why not just ask your spouse what's up?


You are assuming they didn't. You ask, they say one thing, their actions show another and then you decide to check/spy/snoop/invade privacy or whatever term floats your boat.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You are assuming they didn't. You ask, they say one thing, their actions show another and then you decide to check/spy/snoop/invade privacy or whatever term floats your boat.



yeah, my (future) husband always derailed a discussion about his special friend by insisting that "she's JUST a friend."

Of course, when they meet up one on one it's NOT a date. Because, they're JUST friends.

I needed detail to be able to show him that he was treating her on the level of a girlfriend. If he wanted to continue a relationship with her, then I would follow her example and go find a real boyfriend.

He dumped her immediately.

Dierdre, everybody does funny things in life. Of course, there was the possibility that my (future) husband could have done that song and dance about being friends with whom ever he damn well pleased. 

But he didn't do that. Which says to me that what I did was the right thing to do


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> yeah, my (future) husband always derailed a discussion about his special friend by insisting that "she's JUST a friend."
> 
> Of course, when they meet up one on one it's NOT a date. Because, they're JUST friends.
> 
> ...


This is a good and helpful explanation, thank you!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

larry.gray said:


> No, but it sure should be a consideration in divorce. It should affect the division of assets.
> 
> I'm opposed to alimony in nearly all cases. But alimony to a cheating ex spouse is an atrocity.


Agreed.

While cheating (in a marriage) shouldn't be a crime, there should be civil penalties for it, especially when it leads to divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> This is a good and helpful explanation, thank you!


I'm glad that you were able to read through @NextTimeAround's description of her thought process w/ such an open mind, because it's exactly the mindset w/ which many BS's identify -- even if they aren't able to so precisely communicate it at the time -- when they decide to start doing a bit of digging.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Agreed.
> 
> While cheating (in a marriage) shouldn't be a crime, there should be civil penalties for it, especially when it leads to divorce.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. After all, marriage is a binding legal contract. Why should breaking that contract by cheating go unpunished? We see lawsuits for breech of contract all the time. Why should this be any different? The cheater didn't abide by the contract. S/he cheated. there should be a civil remedy just like every other legally binding contract.



Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

lucy999 said:


> I agree. After all, marriage is a binding legal contract. Why should breaking that contract by cheating go unpunished? We see lawsuits for breech of contract all the time. Why should this be any different? The cheater didn't abide by the contract. S/he cheated. there should be a civil remedy just like every other legally binding contract.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Eggs Zachary!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

No. And for much the same reason as using spying on a spouse should be permissible if they were suspected of abusing an elderly relative or stealing money from the family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

lucy999 said:


> I agree. After all, marriage is a binding legal contract. Why should breaking that contract by cheating go unpunished? We see lawsuits for breech of contract all the time. Why should this be any different? The cheater didn't abide by the contract. S/he cheated. there should be a civil remedy just like every other legally binding contract.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


What else is in the contract? Should we be able to sue when one falls out of love with the other? Does not do their share of the housework? Looses a job and does not "provide"? Was cold and distant? The idea of gobbing up civil courts to figure our who was wronger during the dissolution of marriage is not something I want my tax dollars paying for.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> If you hack your spouse's password protected device without their permission, it is illegal in most places, and may be a felony. If convicted you could spend years in prison. Evidence found wouldn't be admissible in court for divorce purposes, either, and if your spouse finds out, you could be subject to civil as well as criminal proceedings.


There are people in prison for doing this. 

Putting keylogger on your spouse's computer without their knowledge is a crime.

Recording their conversations, ones that you are not a party to, is illegal. In some states you would also need their agreement to record a conversation that included you.

The one exception to this is that if you record someone committing a crime, the law generally overlooks how you got the recording. For example, if an abused woman puts up a secret camera to record it the next him he beats her… even in a 2 party state, the recording is admissible in court because he committed a crime by beating her.

Videotaping has other restrictions, such as it’s illegal to record someone without their agreement in places where there is an expectation of privacy. For example, you could have your spouse prosecuted for videotaping you in the bathroom. But a camera in the living room is usually ok. There are is an expectation of privacy in the bedroom as well.

I also believe in the idea that in marriage, privacy means you can close the door when you go to the bathroom. 

But snooping on a spouse is a fine line to walk. I think that people have the right to know what is going on in their lives. As someone brought up, it can lead to you losing/wasting years of your life on a cheating spouse. But there is the other part of this… people who snoop on their spouse to the extent that it’s abusive. There are people who monitor every move that their spouse makes and uses that as a means of control.

IMHO, only snoop if there is evidence of an affair or other wrong doing. Then if you get the evidence you need, stop the snooping and either get out of the marriage or work on reconciliation.

There can be ‘snooping’ during reconciliation, but it has to be with the consent on the person you are snooping on. If they don’t agree, then get out of the marriage. They are hiding something.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> What else is in the contract? Should we be able to sue when one falls out of love with the other? Does not do their share of the housework? Looses a job and does not "provide"? Was cold and distant? The idea of gobbing up civil courts to figure our who was wronger during the dissolution of marriage is not something I want my tax dollars paying for.


All very good points. I don't have the answer to that. However, if a woman can be awarded millions of dollars for spilling hot coffee on herself without a proper warning from the restaurant, I would not be too worried about spending my tax dollars on something as serious as decimating a marriage without the other spouse's knowledge.



Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> You really need to 'snoop' to know what's going on? lol Hmmm, if your spouse is out all night, locking their phone and disappearing, odds are, they're cheating. You'd want to read the horrible details? Then snoop, I guess. I'd not be having anymore kids with such a person, and would be hiring a lawyer. I live on earth.


Sometimes it is not that easy to figure out that they are cheating.

A doctor who works long hours and a schedule that is not 9-5 can get away with hiding a lot of cheating… I know this from experience.

How about someone who travels often for work. It’s a great way to hide cheating. Shoot they can take days off of work and just tell you that they are traveling for business.

Someone who cheats at work and mostly cheats at lunch time.

Sometimes, you just find the tip of the iceberg accidently, and then you need to do some snooping to find out the truth because a cheater is usually not going to come clean.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> So, what does this have to do with cheating? The thread is about snooping and spying because you suspect cheating.
> 
> If spouses are cheating, THEY blew it up.
> 
> ...


I think that you are missing the point that he is trying to make. Very often, it is not clear whether or not one’s spouse is cheating. You get some hits that something is going on. But it might not be cheating. It might be something very different.

He is saying that he’s not going to just go file for divorce on a hunch. Instead he’s going to find out what’s going on first. He needs real strong evidence that there is cheating.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> What else is in the contract? Should we be able to sue when one falls out of love with the other? Does not do their share of the housework? Looses a job and does not "provide"? Was cold and distant? The idea of gobbing up civil courts to figure our who was wronger during the dissolution of marriage is not something I want my tax dollars paying for.


Actually has been civil cases of alienation of love and these things can be brought up in family court. Make no mistake it's a circus.

Probably the clearest and most practical thing to do is remove government 100% from marriage and make it completely a tradional based or religious based ceremony only.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Sometimes it is not that easy to figure out that they are cheating.
> 
> A doctor who works long hours and a schedule that is not 9-5 can get away with hiding a lot of cheating… I know this from experience.
> 
> ...


This makes a lot of sense, and I had never thought of this!


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I think that you are missing the point that he is trying to make. Very often, it is not clear whether or not one’s spouse is cheating. You get some hits that something is going on. But it might not be cheating. It might be something very different.
> 
> He is saying that he’s not going to just go file for divorce on a hunch. Instead he’s going to find out what’s going on first. He needs real strong evidence that there is cheating.


This is true. I knew my X was cheating. I could feel it and once the love goggles came off I could see what she was really doing. But the moment I had actual evidence in hand my heart sank. I knew it was true but when it was no doubt confirmed it became all too real. I did know but I was still hoping I could prove myself wrong.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> Fair enough, I suppose someone could snoop because there seems to be something going on with their spouse, and the spouse isn't sharing. I don't believe in snooping, never have done that. Many people snoop in dating situations or relationships outside of marriage, I don't think it's something that strikes in marriage, personally. *Why not just ask your spouse what's up*?


If you just ask them what’s up, they are going to lie. Shoot, I’ve sat there with print out proof of cheating and he denied it. 

Do you really think that a person who has been lying, sneaking around behind your back is just going to tell the truth if asked?

If you ask without you having solid evidence, they are going to lie. Then they are going to take the affair even more underground to make it even harder for you to find out the truth.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Deidre 

Much of this also goes to rewriting history. Cheating spouses are notorious for rewriting martial history to escape the truth of why the marriage is ending, the affair. So once you have evidence you can then expose the truth. My X tried to make me out to be a monster but once I exposed the truth she came clean to everyone and admitted she made stuff up. Without that evidence she would probably be spinning the same lies she was then.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Yes, let's make the system even more oppressive for a betrayed spouse.

Your spouse is cheating...you're getting divorced...losing half your sh1t...and btw, you're being fined/going to jail for spying to find all of this out.

Brilliant!


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

No, it should NOT be illegal, as long as it isn't being used for abuse. If you have a gut feeling that your spouse is up to no good, you should be able to check into that in whatever way you need without legal consequences. You have every right to know what is going on.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> If you just ask them what’s up, they are going to lie. Shoot, I’ve sat there with print out proof of cheating and he denied it.
> 
> Do you really think that a person who has been lying, sneaking around behind your back is just going to tell the truth if asked?
> 
> If you ask without you having solid evidence, they are going to lie. Then they are going to take the affair even more underground to make it even harder for you to find out the truth.


I totally agree. I've seen the light today, everyone. lol Seriously, it is eye opening to understand why people do this. I was cheated on in a relationship before, and remember finding out, having proof and he lied. I didn't snoop, but heard many things from friends about this guy. So, yes, they will lie even if you KNOW without a doubt that they've been cheating. 

This has been a helpful discussion! I hope I never feel the need though to do this, someday.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> I totally agree. I've seen the light today, everyone. lol Seriously, it is eye opening to understand why people do this. I was cheated on in a relationship before, and remember finding out, having proof and he lied. I didn't snoop, but heard many things from friends about this guy. So, yes, they will lie even if you KNOW without a doubt that they've been cheating.
> 
> This has been a helpful discussion! I hope I never feel the need though to do this, someday.



I used to think the same you do / did. But there is only so much running away from situations that you can do. I also believe that intercepting that information and having a real discussion about it helped to shore up our relationship.

If he had done more hurtful things, it would have difficult to continue the relationship Even now I get triggered from time to time.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Sometimes it is not that easy to figure out that they are cheating.
> 
> A doctor who works long hours and a schedule that is not 9-5 can get away with hiding a lot of cheating… I know this from experience.
> 
> ...


I'm very much in one of those positions. I last saw my boss in late July. I normally see him a few times a month. He manages 7 people in four different continents. I set my own schedule. I don't travel extensively, but enough.

If I ever were to lose my wife's trust, I imagine it would be difficult to get back.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> yeah, my (future) husband always derailed a discussion about his special friend by insisting that "she's JUST a friend."
> 
> Of course, when they meet up one on one it's NOT a date. Because, they're JUST friends.
> 
> ...


Thank you, great example.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

1) Cheating should be illegal. My preference would be a large fine and 6-12 months in county jail. At the very least, it should carry a penalty in a divorce proceeding. In most states, it means virtually NOTHING.

2) What I have to come to realize is if you feel you HAVE to spy on your spouse then the trust is ALREADY gone. In which case, you should just file now and stop wasting time better spent replacing them.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Cheating/adultery shouldn't be illegal. Are we going back to Biblical times? lol


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> Cheating/adultery shouldn't be illegal. Are we going back to Biblical times? lol




Why not?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Cheating used to have legal penalties, as I recall. But, it was too difficult, time-consuming, and expensive for the courts to assess responsibility, and proof isn't always available or clear-cut. And it's so common that there would be too many lengthy cases, delaying divorces and costing everyone a lot of money. Better to make it no-fault, even if that's sometimes unfair.

However, while cheating is not a crime in most places now, spying, hacking, recording, etc., IS a crime (with certain limited exceptions). The courts will give the cheater who did NOT break any laws more lee-way than a BS who did commit a felony by spying. That's the law - you don't have to like it, but break it at your own risk. Personally, I'd be very, very careful if I snooped, and if I found anything to support my suspicions, would ask my spouse for complete transparency and access to all devices without saying why (or give a reason based on observed behaviors), and ask for a signed agreement to that effect to allow me to monitor them. If that's not forthcoming, then I would have to assume there is more to hide - my undisclosed proof being sufficient to then file for divorce.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> I totally agree. I've seen the light today, everyone. lol Seriously, it is eye opening to understand why people do this. I was cheated on in a relationship before, and remember finding out, having proof and he lied. I didn't snoop, but heard many things from friends about this guy. So, yes, they will lie even if you KNOW without a doubt that they've been cheating.
> 
> This has been a helpful discussion! I hope I never feel the need though to do this, someday.


So do we. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Ceegee said:


> Why not?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because there's too many ways to define it. If a wife is having an EA online, she should go to jail? lol If a husband is going to a strip club, and the wife considers this cheating, should he go to jail? 

There's too many grey areas with cheating, and to waste tax dollars on it is silly, IMO.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

straightshooter said:


> So you actually believe that a married couple with 5 kids where one spouse is staying out all night, locking their phone, and doing all sorts of disappearing that the other spouse should just walk away without bothering to find out what is going on rather than snoop.
> 
> What planet are you on????


I think you misread her post. She said "no (spying, snooping) shouldn't (that is should not) be illegal.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

No, it should not be illegal. If certain aspects are, then be smart about it.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Cheating used to have legal penalties, as I recall. But, it was too difficult, time-consuming, and expensive for the courts to assess responsibility, and proof isn't always available or clear-cut. And it's so common that there would be too many lengthy cases, delaying divorces and costing everyone a lot of money. Better to make it no-fault, even if that's sometimes unfair.
> 
> However, while cheating is not a crime in most places now, spying, hacking, recording, etc., IS a crime (with certain limited exceptions). The courts will give the cheater who did NOT break any laws more lee-way than a BS who did commit a felony by spying. That's the law - you don't have to like it, but break it at your own risk. Personally, I'd be very, very careful if I snooped, and if I found anything to support my suspicions, would ask my spouse for complete transparency and access to all devices without saying why (or give a reason based on observed behaviors), and ask for a signed agreement to that effect to allow me to monitor them. If that's not forthcoming, then I would have to assume there is more to hide - my undisclosed proof being sufficient to then file for divorce.


Please give an example because i have never seen this actually happen. I have never seen a BS get in trouble over snooping even when they violate the law. They are never prosecuted.I have even seen stories on tv where the law is violated but nothing ever happens more than a minor slap on the wrist warning.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> Because there's too many ways to define it. If a wife is having an EA online, she should go to jail? lol If a husband is going to a strip club, and the wife considers this cheating, should he go to jail?
> 
> 
> 
> There's too many grey areas with cheating, and to waste tax dollars on it is silly, IMO.




The same could be said about many laws/crimes. 

I'm not saying it should be illegal but it opens up a very interesting discussion. 

I think that it should be legal. 

I think default custody should be 50/50. 

Think alimony and child support should be nada (save for certain situations). 

Some perspective: many betrayed fathers would gladly pay higher taxes to cover the expense of such court costs instead of paying 20-30% in child support when they want their kids with them 100% but can't because their mom couldn't keep her dress down. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

ButtPunch said:


> Please give an example because i have never seen this actually happen. I have never seen a BS get in trouble over snooping even when they violate the law. They are never prosecuted.I have even seen stories on tv where the law is violated but nothing ever happens more than a minor slap on the wrist warning.




My attorney gave me an example of such a case in Michigan (or was it Minnesota). 

Husband hacked wife's email to discover affair. I think he served jail time if memory serves. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/em...ichigan-man-felony-computer/story?id=12488956


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Ceegee said:


> My attorney gave me an example of such a case in Michigan (or was it Minnesota).
> 
> Husband hacked wife's email to discover affair. I think he served jail time if memory serves.


Probably worth it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Ceegee said:


> Snooping Through Wife's E-Mail Gets Michigan Man Charged With Felony Computer Misuse - ABC News
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All charges were dropped against him. 

They tried to get him on hacking laws (like credit card theft).


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Probably worth it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Well, there is a reason my attorney told me about this case. 




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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Ceegee said:


> Snooping Through Wife's E-Mail Gets Michigan Man Charged With Felony Computer Misuse - ABC News


Eh... sounds like they don't really have a case.

Just some d**chebag DA trying to make precedent w/ an overzealous interpretation of existing law.

Geez... he didn't "hack" her email account.

People see "computer technician" or "IT professional" and automatically think we're all a bunch of f*cking warlocks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

The funny part was the DA had to prove that he didn't have permission.

He said/She said but the burden of proof was on the prosecutor.

TAM lesson never let them know how you know.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> People see "computer technician" or "IT professional" and automatically think we're all a bunch of f*cking warlocks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am.


Except the appropriate term for your gender is "witch." :wink2:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Except the appropriate term for your gender is "witch." :wink2:


And I am so neither. Half the time, I get bored trying to change my passwords.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Eh... sounds like they don't really have a case.
> 
> Just some d**chebag DA trying to make precedent w/ an overzealous interpretation of existing law.
> 
> ...


Well, here's the proof!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am.


Warlocks are lame.

Paladins are awesome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> And I am so neither. Half the time, I get bored trying to change my passwords.


Then you may be a muggle!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ButtPunch said:


> Please give an example because i have never seen this actually happen. I have never seen a BS get in trouble over snooping even when they violate the law. They are never prosecuted.I have even seen stories on tv where the law is violated but nothing ever happens more than a minor slap on the wrist warning.


Austin, Texas… man get 4 year prison sentence

Spying on wife's e-mails lands man in prison


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> Because there's too many ways to define it. If a wife is having an EA online, she should go to jail? lol If a husband is going to a strip club, and the wife considers this cheating, should he go to jail?
> 
> There's too many grey areas with cheating, and to waste tax dollars on it is silly, IMO.


Legally, the only thing that is considered adultery is actual sex. Anything else is not adultery.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Eh... sounds like they don't really have a case.
> 
> Just some d**chebag DA trying to make precedent w/ an overzealous interpretation of existing law.
> 
> ...


He didn't "hack" it, but found the password written down. Doesn't make it "okay" - or does it? Perhaps if I find your online banking password written down, and access your account to transfer some money to myself, that would be okay? Great! If I ever visit you, I'll look around ...


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> He didn't "hack" it, but found the password written down. Doesn't make it "okay" - or does it? Perhaps if I find your online banking password written down, and access your account to transfer some money to myself, that would be okay? Great! If I ever visit you, I'll look around ...


Completely invalid argument.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Completely invalid argument.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How so? He didn't have permission to access a private account, but did so anyway. He broke the law, even if there wasn't enough evidence to convict him.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> How so? He didn't have permission to access a private account, but did so anyway. He broke the law, even if there wasn't enough evidence to convict him.


Nope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Nope.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, that response is rather uninformative. Is that because you don't have a point to defend?


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Well, that response is rather uninformative. Is that because you don't have a point to defend?




Hap,

It's the same defense his attorney had. 

You have to prove it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Then you may be a muggle!


Puh. I am the magician of code. I have no time for measly user interfaces.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Ceegee said:


> Yes, let's make the system even more oppressive for a betrayed spouse.
> 
> Your spouse is cheating...you're getting divorced...losing half your sh1t...and btw, you're being fined/going to jail for spying to find all of this out.
> 
> Brilliant!


The trouble is that spouses who cheat and lie about it really exist, but so do spouses who are abusively controlling. It's a balancing act to look after both.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

My house has a single mailbox. Mail addressed to either my wife or myself (or both of us) arrives in this mailbox daily. She opens mail addressed to me. I open mail addressed to her. No one gets sued.

In your example, there is an intent to commit theft.

All this guy intended to do was to get to the truth.

Think intent doesn't matter?

Hillary Clinton's legal team would disagree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Ceegee said:


> Hap,
> 
> It's the same defense his attorney had.
> 
> ...


The lesson to cheaters, then, is to install your own key logger and video monitoring, so you can prove unauthorized access. If you're going to cheat, you may as well play it to the hilt to protect yourself!

It's the age old game of measures and countermeasures. In a technological world, there are even more risks and opportunities to use and abuse each other.

His intent was to find proof of her cheating, but he had to break the law to do so. He may have justification - and I'd agree he did - but that's not necessarily the same as a legal justification. So, if you are going to commit a felony to check on a suspected cheater, you need to do so very carefully to leave no tracks, and not use anything you find in a way that shows you broke the law.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Well, that response is rather uninformative. Is that because you don't have a point to defend?


Red lights provide very little opportunity for rebuttals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

jld, if you start a thread like this, I think that it is only fair that you lead with your own answer to both those questions - so where do you stand on this ?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

manfromlamancha said:


> jld, if you start a thread like this, I think that it is only fair that you lead with your own answer to both those questions - so where do you stand on this ?


I wanted it to be an open discussion. I did not want to influence it in any way, so have not put any likes on, either.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

jld said:


> Why or why not?


I hope not....without snooping on her amazon account, im not sure how great of a gift giver i could really be
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MarriedDude said:


> I hope not....without snooping on her amazon account, im not sure how great of a gift giver i could really be


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

jld said:


> I wanted it to be an open discussion. I did not want to influence it in any way, so have not put any likes on, either.



Why would your view or opinion influence it any more or less than anyone else's (which is what you are asking for)? If everyone thought like that, there would be no discussion.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

manfromlamancha said:


> Why would your view or opinion influence it any more or less than anyone else's (which is what you are asking for)? If everyone thought like that, there would be no discussion.


I think when the thread starter expresses his or her opinion right off the bat, it can influence the discussion one way or the other. And it is not like I have a watertight opinion on this. I really wanted to hear the range of views.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

So, what changed? I've encountered your opinion on this topic, in many a thread and it has been expressed as watertight IMO.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> jld, if you start a thread like this, I think that it is only fair that you lead with your own answer to both those questions - so where do you stand on this ?




I think you know the answer to this. 




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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> So, what changed? I've encountered your opinion on this topic, in many a thread and it has been expressed as watertight IMO.


If you can give a specific quote, we can discuss. Otherwise, what your opinion of watertight is and mine are probably just different.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> Cheating/adultery shouldn't be illegal. Are we going back to Biblical times? lol



I don't think adultery should be illegal.

But I think the means with which to discover / prove adultery should be made legal. 


My sister lives in the state that requires married people to notify their spouses of property purchases. My sister thought her STBX was buying a house to convert into a medical practice (like Dr. huxtable, I guess....)

A friend of hers told her that property ownership was public record and it could be that his mistress was part owner of the house. She took her friend's advice and learned that property was owned by 3 people -- including herself. I guess his way of not informing my sister that he was buying property.

to this day, when she tells this story she has a goofy look on her face, like she really got over on that one. And still fundamentally opposes snooping...... Even though snooping helped her get a better severance since she was able to prove that he minimised his salary and paid his assistant / mistress greater than market rates. They have 2 children between them.

My sister also believes that he paid for her nursing education while they were married..... so she f!cking owns a piece of the revenue stream from that degree. I wonder how many times he told his daughter "no" we can't afford it, without ever explaining why.

So even people who have snooped AND who benefited from having snooped claime to be against it.


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## jasmine31 (Jul 12, 2016)

edit: deleted 
jasmine31


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

jld said:


> If you can give a specific quote, we can discuss. Otherwise, what your opinion of watertight is and mine are probably just different.


Interesting deflection, I asked what changed. Naw I'm not going to derail the thread with a tit for tat argument where you go to a dictionary, find the closest approximation of your definition and then reword it to make it seem like a person misunderstood what you meant.

Been there, done that, no bueno.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jasmine31 said:


> No snoop for me. I trust him.. Only a dumb girl would go look for problems where there none, be unreasonable, or start throwing tantrum over a guy who this transparent with his phone.


And your point is?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Interesting deflection, I asked what changed. Naw I'm not going to derail the thread with a tit for tat argument where you go to a dictionary, find the closest approximation of your definition and then reword it to make it seem like a person misunderstood what you meant.
> 
> Been there, done that, no bueno.


That was awesome.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

jld said:


> I think when the thread starter expresses his or her opinion right off the bat, it can influence the discussion one way or the other. And it is not like I have a watertight opinion on this. I really wanted to hear the range of views.


I think your concerns are misplaced. Although I can't speak to the influence you have over women, it's a known fact that men are not influenced by women.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think there are different types of snooping, depending on the motivation.

Snooping to try to catch your spouse in some improper act: cheating, reckless spending, porn habit etc. I don't believe in doing that in a marriage.

Then there is snooping to learn things that are intended to benefit the person you are snooping on. For instance if look at their browsing history to see what porn they are watching - in order to better understand their fantasies, and try to play to those, then I'm much more tolerant.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

In regards to cheating etc snooping is necessary for truth.

But we are entitled to some privacy. 
Imagine your spouse listening to a conversation with a friend where you are venting about them. 
I'm venting/ranting that's human, I'm in a frustration at the time but don't mean those words after. 
So imagine hearing the bad things people say about each other but in reality they don't mean it. 
A person is hurt unnecessarily. 
Sometimes being honest can be hurtful which is why we all need just a little bit of privacy. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Many governments tell individuals that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.

When it comes to my husband I agree. But when it comes to Big Brother I disagree for reasons such as the governments has an endless budget in which to harass, humiliate and incarcerate.

The worst thing that could happen when your partner snoops and finds out that you're fooling around is divorce...... 

Funny how we call individuals who look at no friends' FB pages psycho....... but we don't call prospective employers who do the same psycho....

I am sure that there are few other iniquities in which the individual has fewer rights than large organisations....


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

Yes it should be illegal and is in many states. Everyone has a right to protect their personal privacy, even from their spouse. If you suspect your spouse is cheating, then that's likely a symptom of bigger problems in the marriage and you should probably leave anyway.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> I don't think adultery should be illegal.
> 
> But I think the means with which to discover / prove adultery should be made legal.
> 
> ...


While marriage is a legal contract, it's still considered a private matter, when people cheat in their marriages. I see what you're saying, but someone would have to say ''I think my spouse is cheating so will you give me 'x' information for me to investigate further?" That violates a lot of privacy laws, and at the end of the day, if your spouse is cheating, you have the option to leave. We don't own people, when I marry someday, and I discover cheating, it still is a personal matter to deal with. Now divorce and custody aren't personal matters. But, this is just how I see it. It's not the same as you own a car, and someone steals your car. No one steals anything in adultery, it's basically two willing participants doing something sleazy. That's considered a violation of the ten commandments, but in terms of the law, it's not a crime. The betrayed spouse is in the dark, so to that person, they're being robbed of the truth. But, that's still not a crime. We don't own people, and if your spouse cheats, you have the option to divorce. 

I don't see adultery as a crime, I see it as a character flaw, especially if the person is a serial cheater.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> No one steals anything in adultery


That's a matter of opinion.

How would you feel if husband told you:"Honey, the kids can't go to private school because I'm paying for this babe's nursing education. Oh just someone I boff when you're not around......."

I guess if my exBIL had been _honest_ about it, then it would have been ok...... and not stealing.....


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> That's a matter of opinion.
> 
> How would you feel if husband told you:"Honey, the kids can't go to private school because I'm paying for this babe's nursing education. Oh just someone I boff when you're not around......."


 I'd have the option to divorce and then figure it out financially. It's still not a crime. 



> I guess if my exBIL had been _honest_ about it, then it would have been ok...... and not stealing.....


Cheating is terrible, but unfortunately just being a db isn't a crime. lol 

The reason too I don't think you can classify it as a crime, is that many spouses have addictions, so should they go to jail because they are taking their paychecks and gambling? Or doing drugs? (illegal drugs are a crime) Or buying things they can't afford? All without consulting the spouse? It just creates a slippery slope. Marriage is a choice, and so is divorce. If you finally discover some horrible things about your spouse, then divorce is an option.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

I am not OK with spying\ snooping. I am OK with a spouse asking the other to look through their phone\ tablet in front of the other. I have never gone through my wife's phone.....she has never given me a reason and I respect her privacy.
I wouldn't go through my children's journals or diaries either.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

richie33 said:


> I am not OK with spying\ snooping. I am OK with a spouse asking the other to look through their phone\ tablet in front of the other. I have never gone through my wife's phone.....she has never given me a reason and I respect her privacy.
> 
> I wouldn't go through my children's journals or diaries either.




But should it be illegal?

I used to believe the same as you. 

Gaslighting changed my opinion. 




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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

IMO, it should be illegal. If you want access to such things, you could make a written agreement before (or after) you marry that everything is available to each other at any time (and list any exceptions). (Alternatively, you may be able to show that you have the right to "snoop" because you have routinely and customarily allowed each other access in the past.) Then, if access is stopped, you can ask for the password, hack it legally (because you have a written agreement), or assume there is an unacceptable reason and act accordingly. Without permission, though, I think the laws on this have a good purpose and are there to protect privacy. Even your spouse does not have the right to invade it without permission. So get it in advance, or break the law and hope to not get caught.

There may be grey areas, too. What if you bought your spouse's phone and pay the subscription? You are then the owner, but they may still have some privacy rights. If you employer pays for your phone, they generally have access to it and can monitor it, but under specific circumstances and with certain protections for the employee. The ethics of these situations can be very convoluted, and in general I think it is better to set high standards for privacy, even if that may sometimes have negative consequences.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, it should be illegal. If you want access to such things, you could make a written agreement before (or after) you marry that everything is available to each other at any time (and list any exceptions). (Alternatively, you may be able to show that you have the right to "snoop" because you have routinely and customarily allowed each other access in the past.) Then, if access is stopped, you can ask for the password, hack it legally (because you have a written agreement), or assume there is an unacceptable reason and act accordingly. Without permission, though, I think the laws on this have a good purpose and are there to protect privacy. Even your spouse does not have the right to invade it without permission. So get it in advance, or break the law and hope to not get caught.
> 
> 
> 
> There may be grey areas, too. What if you bought your spouse's phone and pay the subscription? You are then the owner, but they may still have some privacy rights. If you employer pays for your phone, they generally have access to it and can monitor it, but under specific circumstances and with certain protections for the employee. The ethics of these situations can be very convoluted, and in general I think it is better to set high standards for privacy, even if that may sometimes have negative consequences.




To each their own. 

I've learned my lesson. 

First sign I see I'm checking anything and everything. 

Laws be damned. 



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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Ceegee said:


> But should it be illegal?
> 
> I used to believe the same as you.
> 
> ...


Illegal.....no. I can't imagine if it were myself or anyone in healthy relationship picking up the phone and calling the police cause my wife went through my phone. Just because one feels they should be able to do something doesn't mean they should. Would you go through your wife's diary if she had one? Would you listen in on a phone call if your wife is talking to her sister, mother or girlfriend? I wouldnt.......but I am sure plenty have reason to. I am not in their shoes.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

richie33 said:


> I am not in their shoes.



That's the thing. 

Most would agree with you until you are in their shoes. 



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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Ceegee said:


> To each their own.
> 
> I've learned my lesson.
> 
> ...


Yep, same here! Sorry but I feel like if you are lowlife enough to be cheating or hiding something serious from your spouse, you waive your right to privacy! 

I know if I were the one being caught doing something, I would be horrified that my spouse found out what I was up to, not jumping immediately to "you went through my phone/email/whatever!".... to me, that reaction shows they have no remorse for their actions, and they wont ever fully own up to what they did.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

jld said:


> Why or why not?


What specific behaviors are you considering spying or snooping to be made illegal? I admit I haven't given it a great deal of thought, but in the United States a spouse has the same right to privacy as anyone else.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Haiku said:


> What specific behaviors are you consider spying or snooping to be made illegal? I admit I haven't given it a great deal of thought, but in the United States a spouse has the same right to privacy as anyone else.


It was a general question. Sometimes, when a thread is started in a general way, the discussion can be broader and more interesting and thought-provoking than if it had been more narrowly focused.

Feel free to share any thoughts you have on the subject.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I might snoop if I had good reason, but it should still be illegal (I'll take my chances on being caught/prosecuted). Why? Because spying can be used for abusive purposes as well, and people need to have some legal protection from spousal abuse - IMO, that takes priority.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

A betrayed's health can be compromised which is a crime in my book. Find out as soon as there are suspicions to protect yourself and possibly an unborn child. When you take the vow to forsake all others you are essentially giving your spouse the rights to your love and affections. A marriage is a contract by law even though the law (in most states) does not enforce its covenants.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Is adultery illegal?

In some jurisdictions adultery *is* illegal.

So "spying" on your spouse would be, in effect, in *those *circumstances, the investigation of an alleged criminal act.

(Just being the devil's advocate, there... )


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> A betrayed's health can be compromised which is a crime in my book. Find out as soon as there are suspicions to protect yourself and possibly an unborn child. When you take the vow to forsake all others you are essentially giving your spouse the rights to your love and affections. A marriage is a contract by law even though the law (in most states) does not enforce its covenants.


I agree. Besides the BS's health, if the WS is buying gifts, dinner, hotel rooms for the AP, resources are being stolen away from the family. It's only right for the BS to find out exactly what is going on. 

When my ex sister in law was having her affair(s), snooping was the only way my brother in law EVER got answers. Ex sister in law still denies any wrong doing. If he hadn't snooped he would still be married to a probable NPDer and feeling like a crazy person.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

For those who'd want snooping to be a crime, I'd love to see how you'd define the criminal activity in a statute.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Hacking, and secretly photographing, and phone tapping are illegal in man places.



GTdad said:


> For those who'd want snooping to be a crime, I'd love to see how you'd define the criminal activity in a statute.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

In a community property state, how would it be determined that a person's privacy had been invaded? If a spouse owns half the phone or car or computer, it seems it would be a sticky wicket for one person to claim exclusive privacy rights. They may have the item registered in their name, but their spouse still owns half of it unless it is excluded in a pre-nup.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> I might snoop if I had good reason, but it should still be illegal (I'll take my chances on being caught/prosecuted). Why? Because spying can be used for abusive purposes as well, and people need to have some legal protection from spousal abuse - IMO, that takes priority.


Cheating is abusive as well.

And if you're going to try outlaw abusive behaviour, there are a whole lot of behaviors that have nothing to do technology......... like constantly checking the odometer of your spouse's car and then making them account for every mile they've driven.......


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

uhtred said:


> Hacking, and secretly photographing, and phone tapping are illegal in man places.


What if the computers and phones are community property? And would the same prohibitions apply to monitoring your kids' activities? Would that be made illegal as well?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

If I were to ever snoop, I would keep the information to myself. And if the information satisfied my curiosity, then I'd either stay with him or leave him. But, he doesn't need to know. ''How did you find this out?'' 

''I have my ways,'' would be my answer. 

But, if I found texts and emails that clearly spell out that he is in an affair, I'm out. And he doesn't need to know how I know. 

This would be IF I were ever going to snoop. lol So how the legality of all this would even come into play, doesn't make sense. Looking at someone's texts of whom I'd be married to, isn't a crime.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> If I were to ever snoop, I would keep the information to myself. And if the information satisfied my curiosity, then I'd either stay with him or leave him. But, he doesn't need to know. ''How did you find this out?''
> 
> ''I have my ways,'' would be my answer.
> 
> ...



Can you fathom a reason to snoop?




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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

jld said:


> It was a general question. Sometimes, when a thread is started in a general way, the discussion can be broader and more interesting and thought-provoking than if it had been more narrowly focused.
> 
> Feel free to share any thoughts you have on the subject.


Ok, thank you. Privacy statutes already exist and those I'm familar with contain no exception for a suspect being a spouse of the victim. So the premise within the question stumps me and the behavior you're asking about clarified. 

Will you share your thoughts?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Ceegee said:


> Can you fathom a reason to snoop?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. I've never snooped on boyfriends, though. And I had reasons with two guys, but it just never felt right. But, if say you are a spouse and never see your spouse, the spouse is always taking ''road trips'' or always seems gone longer than they should be, I could see the idea behind snooping. To stay in a marriage where you are being made a fool, just to avoid snooping, probably isn't wise either. This is one of those tough ethical moments.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> In a community property state, how would it be determined that a person's privacy had been invaded? If a spouse owns half the phone or car or computer, it seems it would be a sticky wicket for one person to claim exclusive privacy rights. They may have the item registered in their name, but their spouse still owns half of it unless it is excluded in a pre-nup.



Anything that you do on an employer's computer is subject to their scrutiny.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Haiku said:


> Ok, thank you. Privacy statutes already exist and those I'm familar with contain no exception for a suspect being a spouse of the victim. So the premise within the question stumps me and the behavior you're asking about clarified.
> 
> Will you share your thoughts?


Have you read the whole thread? From what has been posted, it does not seem that personal privacy in marriage is guaranteed nor that all violations of it are punishable by law.

My thoughts are currently under development. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> Anything that you do on an employer's computer is subject to their scrutiny.


Of course. Any equipment provided by an employer should be hands-off. But; if someone is stupid enough to use their work equipment for anything other than work, then they deserve to have their employer fire them. 

Some people still do not believe that all of their internet activity is monitored by their employer.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

jld said:


> Have you read the whole thread? From what has been posted, it does not seem that personal privacy in marriage is guaranteed nor that all violations of it are punishable by law.
> 
> My thoughts are currently under development.


I've skimmed it. 

Which behaviors do you feel are on the table to be made illegal that aren't already? Can you point me to a source where there is some type of spousal privacy privilege? 😀


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Haiku said:


> I've skimmed it.
> 
> Which behaviors do you feel are on the table to be made illegal that aren't already? Can you point me to a source where there is some type of spousal privacy privilege? 😀


I don't know that any are going to be made illegal. Not sure about a source regarding spousal privacy privilege, either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

So if you had a spouse cheated on you....then any partners who you get into a relationship from there on out will be snooped on? That what it sounds like some are saying. Doesnt seem fair to me.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

jld said:


> I don't know that any are going to be made illegal. Not sure about a source regarding spousal privacy privilege, either.


I think you made things clear to me. Thanks.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Haiku said:


> I think you made things clear to me. Thanks.


You're welcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

richie33 said:


> So if you had a spouse cheated on you....then any partners who you get into a relationship from there on out will be snooped on? That what it sounds like some are saying. Doesnt seem fair to me.




Great question. 

Though I'm not sure to whom it was directed. 

So, in my marriage of 15 years I believed as you do. Privacy, blah, blah. 

Then she cheated and we divorced. 

Then, after some time you begin to meet people. 

Former BS's sometimes gravitate to other BS's. 

Which is great!

You have no issues sharing phones and signing up for "find my friends". In fact, the openness is refreshing. 

When you go through this, privacy is really only about closing the door in the bathroom door. 




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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

Within the normal day to day activities of a marriage, it would prove difficult to show a criminal intent on most "snooping" activities because of how intertwined things are between spouses and children. Unless you actually banned the actual tracking software, vars, gps trackers, etc......intent would have to be established beyond shadow of a doubt. This discussion really is a non starter because of that. I suspect the few cases that have proceeded involve already physically separated couples, and hacking into email or financial accounts to the detriment of the account owner. In other words, actual harm. The legal system will never care to prosecute without prove able harm. This actually becomes rapidly more of a moral and ethical issue. There is just no way a usable law to cover this could be written. And yes. ..,did federal law enforcement for 32 years. 

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

But what you are now describing is transparency.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

lucy999 said:


> I agree. After all, marriage is a binding legal contract. Why should breaking that contract by cheating go unpunished? We see lawsuits for breech of contract all the time. Why should this be any different? The cheater didn't abide by the contract. S/he cheated. there should be a civil remedy just like every other legally binding contract.


Actually, it's even worse than that.

In other contracts, when one side breaches, the other side can at least say "nice knowing you, bye!", even if there aren't any penalties in the contract.

In marriage, when one side breaches, that person not only can walk away without penalty but often also takes home lots of cash and prizes... if that person is the one with less assets going in, usually the woman.

And of course in a marriage with children, there's the ever-present threat of "child support", failure to pay being worse than owing the IRS money.

So I don't see the upside of marriage with the current rules, at least for the man.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Snooping and spying on your spouse is just holding them accountable for their behavior. It's done all the time in healthy marriages {not premarital relationshps}. I wasn't out to "bust" my wife {though I did need a sufficient level of evidence to overcome her gaslighting}, rather I needed information to save her from making a huge mistake with our lives and to be able to confront her and expose her adultery. It's very tough to involve church elders, family and friends when your spouse is completely denying that anything sinful is going on.

No it shouldn't be illegal but you need to be smart about it and admit to nothing because there are plenty of wayward cops, attorney's, prosecutors and judges that will hold such against you in the battle of images known as divorce court where judges are Gods and often behave outside of reason. If your judge doesn't like snooping and your wayward successfully portrays you as an abusive controlling husband ~~~ you're screwed. 

Personally, my wife can spy on me all she wants and I can spy on her if I want. Don't feel much need to and she probably doesn't either but I try to conduct myself as though my wife is watching what I'm doing 24/7 so I don't ever have to stress about what she may or could discover. People behave better when they know or suspect they are being watched over. Only sinners need and demand privacy. 

If your spouse can't hold you accountable, without restriction, really who will? 


On another note: I saw JLD say exposure should be illegal on another thread. So I imagine she's not much into spying/snooping either. As long as I retain the freedom of speech, I'll honestly and lovingly expose any and all adulterers I can because it's the best way to save them. 

Don't want to be snooped upon? Don't get married.
Don't want to be exposed? Don't cheat. {or let me discover you're a swinger or living some other secret deviant sexual lifestyle)


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Quality said:


> Only sinners need and demand privacy.


So why don't you have your real name on this forum?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Quality said:


> Snooping and spying on your spouse is just holding them accountable for their behavior. It's done all the time in healthy marriages {not premarital relationshps}. I wasn't out to "bust" my wife {though I did need a sufficient level of evidence to overcome her gaslighting}, rather I needed information to save her from making a huge mistake with our lives and to be able to confront her and expose her adultery. It's very tough to involve church elders, family and friends when your spouse is completely denying that anything sinful is going on.
> 
> No it shouldn't be illegal but you need to be smart about it and admit to nothing because there are plenty of wayward cops, attorney's, prosecutors and judges that will hold such against you in the battle of images known as divorce court where judges are Gods and often behave outside of reason. If your judge doesn't like snooping and your wayward successfully portrays you as an abusive controlling husband ~~~ you're screwed.
> 
> ...


Quotes, please, if you are going to assert that. I think I said I am _surprised_ it is not illegal.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

If you are in a real marriage, you have zero expectation of privacy.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

The Middleman said:


> If you are in a real marriage, you have zero expectation of privacy.


Why? 

Just because two people are married doesn't mean they should expect to lose all of their independence. if you are always asking to check your spouses' phone, emails, FB account, etc I just find that to be very unhealthy behavior. If you're married to someone of whom you have no trust, micro-managing them will not change that, IMO.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> Why?
> 
> Just because two people are married doesn't mean they should expect to lose all of their independence. if you are always asking to check your spouses' phone, emails, FB account, etc I just find that to be very unhealthy behavior. If you're married to someone of whom you have no trust, micro-managing them will not change that, IMO.


I didn't say it should happen, or if it was healthy, only that one should have zero expectations of privacy. That being said, all my stuff is wide open to my wife if she wants access to it and I have access to her stuff. I don't know if she has checked my stuff, but I have checked hers when I felt there was a reason to. If either one of us don't like it, we both know where the door is.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> Quotes, please, if you are going to assert that. I think I said I am _surprised_ it is not illegal.


Here's the post. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/344529-scumbag-here-21.html#post16297962

I apologize you didn't flat out say it SHOULD be illegal. 

I inferred from the entire post including the context of disputing farside's post that you felt it should be.

I mean, to be "surprised it's not illegal" sounds a lot like you think it's harmful and bad and thus, should be illegal but perhaps you're making a social comment about our judicial system or victim culture where everybody takes offense at everything so therefore, you surprised our wayward politicians haven't made it illegal. 

Maybe you don't state, have or take a firm position on anything. I'm new here.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> Why?
> 
> Just because two people are married doesn't mean they should expect to lose all of their independence. if you are always asking to check your spouses' phone, emails, FB account, etc I just find that to be very unhealthy behavior. If you're married to someone of whom you have no trust, micro-managing them will not change that, IMO.


^^^This,


> If you are in a real marriage, you have zero expectation of privacy.


^^^ is not this.

You dropped a few red herrings and created a straw man to disagree with the point.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Quality said:


> Here's the post. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/344529-scumbag-here-21.html#post16297962
> 
> I apologize you didn't flat out say it SHOULD be illegal.
> 
> ...


Here is exactly what it said:

*farsidejunky*: _I don't think there's any disputing the fact that a BS needs to be encouraged to see their agency. 

I think where we will part ways is in how that agency is encouraged to be utilized, which IMO should be to have the BS work on self improvement, kill the affair with extreme prejudice, and see the divorce process through unless there is a monumental shift from the WS._

*jld*: _I agree except for the killing the affair part. I am kind of surprised exposure is not illegal.

And really, if a heart to heart talk does not put them on a good path, I think proceeding straight to divorce is a very reasonable next step._


Thank you for your apology, Quality. 

And now back to the subject of *this* thread: Spying/Snooping.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Why?
> 
> Just because two people are married doesn't mean they should expect to lose all of their independence.


Despite our culture promoting independence as an extremely important value, interdependence is actually kind of the point of marriage. If you want independence ~ don't get married. 



*Deidre* said:


> if you are always asking to check your spouses' phone, emails, FB account, etc I just find that to be very unhealthy behavior.


That is unhealthy if not justified by suspicion of specific egregious hurtful behavior. But what you seem to be describing appears to be crossing the line into obsession and dependence versus interdependence.

A decent little article about interdependence: Focus on the Family Falling in and out of love 



*Deidre* said:


> you're married to someone of whom you have no trust, micro-managing them will not change that, IMO.


Every human has their weaknesses, susceptibilities and foibles. Some more than others and some secret ~ some not so secret. You hold your spouse accountable because you love them and want to help them be the best they can be and to protect them from their fully revealled and shared weaknesses, susceptibilities and foibles. And you'll trust each other because there won't be secrets and, occasionally, you can/will/might inspect what you expect and find absolutely nothing to be concerned about. 




A good tip though ~~~ if you ever find yourself married to a person who is suddenly accusing you of micro-managing them, being controlling and telling you if you love them you should trust them blindly and/or they are entitled to their privacy {besides bathroom time} ~~~ it's too late to debate or discuss the issue and you'll need to get to snooping immediately if you care about them at all.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

When I'm married someday, if my spouse were to ask to see my phone, I'd show it to him without hesitation, but it would send a message to me that he doesn't trust me. And I don't think that because people get married, they should expect to lose their identity and all privacy. 

We'll have to agree to disagree.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> When I'm married someday, if my spouse were to ask to see my phone, I'd show it to him without hesitation, but it would send a message to me that he doesn't trust me. And I don't think that because people get married, they should expect to lose their identity and all privacy.
> 
> We'll have to agree to disagree.



Maybe it means he just needs to make a phone call and his phone is dead.:smile2:

Don't know why I'd agree to disagree when I'm the one giving you the inside scoop from a healthy long term marriage. 

There is no losing your identity in a healthy interdependent marriage ~ marriage {a good one} takes work ~ good ones aren't magical ~~ they just don't happen by accident but those lucky enough to be in one find such relationships to be a net gain.

My "identity" is better because my wife has permission at any time to hold me accountable. I don't think she does it that often or at all but the second I get complacent and trust that she's not watching I'm more likely to mess up {because I'm human} and I pray she catches me {and love's me anyway while pushing me to do better}.

Same goes for my wife. I'm not her dad trying to hold her back or control her. I'm her spouse ~ her partner ~ her God provisioned accountability life partner.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Disagree? You keep making points outside of what people are writing. 
No one said you lose all privacy, identity or independence when you get married, that's your own extreme wording.

Privacy is NOT going to be the same in marriage. 
Independence is NOT going to be the same in marriage. 
Identity is NOT going to be the same in marriage. 

As I told you in a long ago derail deletion, marriage is "we" not "me." Don't get married and just continue dating if this is a problem.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Quality said:


> Maybe it means he just needs to make a phone call and his phone is dead.:smile2:
> 
> Don't know why I'd agree to disagree when I'm the one giving you the inside scoop from a healthy long term marriage.
> 
> ...


I came back to Christianity last year, so I guess from that perspective, it sounds like what you are explaining here. An ''accountability life partner.'' I've never heard it explained like this, before. 

Happy to see you're in a long term healthy marriage, congrats on that.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> So why don't you have your real name on this forum?



Because I'm not in a marital relationship or otherwise accountable to you or this forum.

But, coincidentally, Quality IS my middle name.


Sincerely,

David "Quality" Thorne


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> Why?
> 
> Just because two people are married doesn't mean they should expect to lose all of their independence. if you are always asking to check your spouses' phone, emails, FB account, etc I just find that to be very unhealthy behavior. If you're married to someone of whom you have no trust, micro-managing them will not change that, IMO.


Let's at this from the other direction:

If you agree to be married, you should not be cagey about your phone, what you do online and whom you see when you're not with your spouse. 

If you can't offer that to your spouse, then don't expect it. And maybe, just don't get married.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I guess this is the conclusion of the Leon Walker of MI case:

UPDATES IN MICHIGAN FAMILY LAW: Leon Walker Case: Unauthorized Access of Email is a Felony


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

The Middleman said:


> If you are in a real marriage, you have zero expectation of privacy.


You actually get no say in what other people consider a "real" marriage. You can define it for your life but not others.

In my world spying. snooping etc is on the same level as paranoia and not something that is at all appealing. I don't think it should be illegal but it is not something that I do and expect the same of my partner. If I found out he was spying on me it would be creepy and erode my trust in him. We communicate instead, it is easy to do and while at times it can be confronting it leaves no lasting ill feelings.

I have never cheated or knowingly been cheated on so this level of paranoia just seems so bizarre to me.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

The Middleman said:


> If you are in a real marriage, you have zero expectation of privacy.


Hmm I'm pretty sure I'm not in a fake marriage. And both my husband and I think snooping on your spouse is highly disfunctional and paranoid behavior.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Celes said:


> Hmm I'm pretty sure I'm not in a fake marriage. And both my husband and I think snooping on your spouse is highly disfunctional and paranoid behavior.


This is how I see it, somewhat. I honestly never heard of spouses snooping and having to check their spouses' phones, etc until reading the stories on here about it.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> Let's at this from the other direction:
> 
> If you agree to be married, you should not be cagey about your phone, what you do online and whom you see when you're not with your spouse.
> 
> If you can't offer that to your spouse, then don't expect it. And maybe, just don't get married.


Not ''cagey'' about my phone but it would make me wonder why my partner doesn't trust me if he needs to monitor my phone and social media. To each their own, but I find it hard to believe that most successful marriages need to do these things in order to keep their spouses ''honest.'' If you have trust issues, maybe don't get married.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> Not ''cagey'' about my phone but it would make me wonder why my partner doesn't trust me if he needs to monitor my phone and social media. To each their own, but I find it hard to believe that most successful marriages need to do these things in order to keep their spouses ''honest.'' If you have trust issues, maybe don't get married.




Some people do have trust issues. 

What if We are not talking about those who have these issues and have always had them. 

What if we are talking about people who have been in trusting relationships. 

Those who have always had great honest, open communication. 

Then, something changes. 

One partner becomes a little more secretive and their actions seem to differ from their words. 

Communication becomes one-sided. 

"Well, you always have the option to divorce" some would say. 

Well, you're right, of course. Everyone always has the right to divorce. 

This is a tough decision to make. Especially so when you have always loved and trusted your partner but now they're spending more time on a phone they always have locked. Or they're working later more often. Or they're going out with friends and staying out longer. Or dressing different.

Upon questioning them on these issues, they come back with "you have trust issues...you're being paranoid...I'm not staying out later...I'm not dressing different..."

It's a very difficult situation to be in. It can be a very gradual process this Gaslighting thing. You don't have any idea what's happening and it makes you feel like you're going crazy. 

Many of these people going through this come here or other forums for help and their told that, "snooping is bad. Being paranoid is unattractive. Weak is ugly. You need to talk to your partner and ask them what's going on".

To someone who has been tying to communicate (unknowingly) with a lying, cheating, manipulative partner who has no intention of working together this type of advice is abusive. It only serves to reinforce the abuse that partner has been doling out for years. 

Do what you have to do to find out what's going then make your decision. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Does anyone know what's the current status of laws? Do current privacy laws on the books apply to anyone, without stating exemptions for a spouse---or does any state have actual exemptions for spouse in the laws?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Nevermind...I found the federal law. It's illegal unless consent is involved.

My view will not be popular. I do think that without consent, it's wrong. 

Yes, even if you think your spouse is cheating.

I think there are other ways to handle a potentially cheating spouse besides unauthorized spying.

I don't think looking through a spouse's phone, email, Facebook accounts, etc. count as unauthorized spying unless you somehow HACK in.

I'm talking about using spyware, unauthorized video and audio recording. I think that's wrong whether you are someone's spouse or not.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

if you have an expectation of privacy from your own spouse-that's a horrible marriage.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> if you have an expectation of privacy from your own spouse-that's a horrible marriage.


If you can't trust your spouse and need to keep tabs on them to feel secure, that's a horrible marriage.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Pluto2 said:


> if you have an expectation of privacy from your own spouse-that's a horrible marriage.


So... You should expect that you have NO privacy just because you are married? That your spouse has put a recorder in your car (or your purse) and is listening to every conversation you have in your car? Recording conversations you have with your parents, siblings, friends? That means nothing in THEIR lives is private, either, and a huge violation of their privacy, too. Yikes. That is a bad marriage in my opinion.

What if your sibling has an ED issue they want to discuss with you and only you in private? Oh wait, because you have a spouse that is impossible...there should be no privacy?? Your spouse has put a recorder in your car and gets to hear every conversation you have there.... because people who are married should have to expectations of privacy, right?

What if your mom is torn up about a very personal an issue she wants to discuss with you, her personal feelings about her own mother and how it's affected her life. Oh wait!! You are married and therefore THERE IS NO EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY from your spouse so by association your spouse hears this conversation, too. Because there is no privacy in marriage, right?

This can apply to emails, too. You hack into your spouse's email, read everything there, because there is no expectation of privacy. You get to read correspondence they share with friends and family. You read the personal emails between your spouse and her friend about the detailed extreme menstrual issues she is having, or you read the emails your spouse has with a friend about the friend's battle with alcohol. You read the emails between your spouse and her mom about her mom's aging issues... her mom has vaginal atrophy and is asking advice about seeing a doctor. 

You put a camera in your living room and are recording your spouse when you are not there and they don't know it. You get to watch them burp fart and pick their nose, things they would never ever do in front of another person, but let loose and do because they think they are home alone.

No thank you. If that is marriage, I'd stay single. Sounds like prison to me.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> Not ''cagey'' about my phone but it would make me wonder why my partner doesn't trust me if he needs to monitor my phone and social media. To each their own, but I find it hard to believe that most successful marriages need to do these things in order to keep their spouses ''honest.'' If you have trust issues, maybe don't get married.



We all have "trust issues." We learn at a young not to loan money and not to share secrets....... because you can't trust most people to do the right thing.

When you enter a long term relationship, there is a lot you give up while getting to know the other person. Even before marriage and before co-habitation, it's lot to give up when your partner expects or asks you to stop seeing other men; to coordinate your free time with him or to account for time spent away.

People do lots of things without thinking about it. In this day of highly fluid relationships: opposite sex friends; friends with benefits; besties and so on. Sometimes an open honest dialogue is not going to account for everything. Sometimes you have to see it all in action before you can decide whether it's something you can live with. 

And just like businesses have mystery shoppers, well sometimes, you have to do it that as well. There were trust issues in the pre digital age. This is why people depended on gossip (and still do) ....... at the same that they publicly denounced it. This is why someone would make an unexpected visit at their spouse's place of work. 

Not to mention the fact that there were more dating rituals, minimum standards in dating and mating and family members around to ensure their presence to prove that both partners of the couple were serious. IOW, it wasn't enough to just trust what they were saying.

One thing I have learned over the years is that understanding relationships and humans is very counterintuitive. Why do men claim that they don't like women who are "hard to get" but diss those who easily make themselves available. why do men claim that they can respect a woman who pays for herself but then seems most eager to please another woman who keeps her wallet at home. And I'm sure that men will have some similar examples.

So then we come to that moment when it's clear that you have "violated" their privacy. And yet, what they seem to be most keen to accomplish at that moment is that it was all a mistake; things will change immediately ..... and you do see change immediately........ 

Of course, you wonder, well, why didn't you do that in the first place? Why are you holding for someone who is f!king other guys anyway? Why are you keeping me in a holding pattern when you claim that I am No. 1? And why do you immediately change when I show that I know that is not the truth? 

Anybody who has answers to these questions, please respond here. Many thanks.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

It'd be interesting to see who has higher rates of infidelity - couples who have no privacy in their marriages or couples who offer some privacy, and aren't monitoring phones, social media, etc.

I'm with Celes on this one, a healthy marriage should have trust. If infidelity happens in a marriage, you don't have to stay. If you decide to reconcile and remain in a marriage, and turn to having to monitor your spouses' every move, not sure what you're gaining. But I've read stories on here where there are spouses who years ago they were cheated on, remained in the marriage, and they are still monitoring their spouses' whereabouts. No thanks. 

Maybe we define marriage differently, that could be.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> It'd be interested to see who has higher rates of infidelity - couples who have no privacy in their marriages or couples who offer some privacy, and aren't monitoring phones, social media, etc.
> 
> I'm with Celes on this one, a healthy marriage should have trust. If infidelity happens in a marriage, you don't have to stay. If you decide to reconcile and remain in a marriage, and turn to having to monitor your spouses' every move, not sure what you're gaining. But I've read stories on here where there are spouses who years ago they were cheated on, remained in the marriage, and they are still monitoring their spouses' whereabouts. No thanks.
> 
> Maybe we define marriage differently, that could be.


One thing I have noticed is that those couples in which the wife keeps her husband on a short leash,ie
1. she's the only point of contact for the couple
2. you notice that after a couple of minutes talking to the husband, she magically appears
3. any interaction that you do have with the husband, she knows about and lets you know that she knows.....
4. they share an e-mail address, so even if you are trying to reach the husband you know she'll see it
5. anytime you try work around any of her implicit rules, she will freeze you out.......

yeah, they're all still together.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> One thing I have noticed is that those couples in which the wife keeps her husband on a short leash,ie
> 1. she's the only point of contact for the couple
> 2. you notice that after a couple of minutes talking to the husband, she magically appears
> 3. any interaction that you do have with the husband, she knows about and lets you know that she knows.....
> ...


And they all lived unhappily ever after...........

I feel sorry for people who are living with spouses like this.

ETA-It is not that I don't see why snooping would make sense if there were incidents of infidelity, but this is why I often say I couldn't stay with a cheating partner, because I don't want to turn into this sad version of myself where I'm desperately checking all of my husband's phones, emails and social media accounts constantly hoping and praying he is being honest with me. It just (to me) is no way to live. There are so many people out there who won't cheat, the energy being wasted on a wayward spouse could go in healing myself and finding a better and more healthy relationship to be in. If you disagree, then we have different ideas of marriage, doesn't make either of us wrong.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> And they all lived unhappily ever after...........
> 
> I feel sorry for people who are living with spouses like this.



Don't know. I tried to be more relaxed with my first husband and our social circles. But then I noticed that women would completely diss me while my exH was perfectly courtly with them. Worried about not letting them down and so on.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> And they all lived unhappily ever after...........
> 
> I feel sorry for people who are living with spouses like this.
> 
> ETA-It is not that I don't see why snooping would make sense if there were incidents of infidelity, but this is why I often say I couldn't stay with a cheating partner, because I don't want to turn into this sad version of myself where I'm desperately checking all of my husband's phones, emails and social media accounts constantly hoping and praying he is being honest with me. It just (to me) is no way to live. There are so many people out there who won't cheat, the energy being wasted on a wayward spouse could go in healing myself and finding a better and more healthy relationship to be in. If you disagree, then we have different ideas of marriage, doesn't make either of us wrong.


Had my future husband had said that this woman was an essential part of his life, then yes, I would have moved on.

But learning more detail was useful in the aftermath. 

I did admit once I saw her e-mail address that I googled. At that time 2010, an e-mail address could deliver a lot of information. My husband tried to call me pscyho for googling this woman.

But by that time, I knew a lot and was able to avoid letting that insult hang in the air and become a part of me.

"I am no moe pscho," I said "than someone whom I have never met but feels entitle to know about my sex life. And let's remember, all the info that I found on line was info that she put other there herself; she chose to do it. All the info that she ever got from me came straight from you and I never gave you permission to put it out."

that was the last time he called me psycho.

Let's not forget, knowledge is power.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> It'd be interesting to see who has higher rates of infidelity - couples who have no privacy in their marriages or couples who offer some privacy, and aren't monitoring phones, social media, etc.
> 
> I'm with Celes on this one, a healthy marriage should have trust. If infidelity happens in a marriage, you don't have to stay. If you decide to reconcile and remain in a marriage, and turn to having to monitor your spouses' every move, not sure what you're gaining. But I've read stories on here where there are spouses who years ago they were cheated on, remained in the marriage, and they are still monitoring their spouses' whereabouts. No thanks.
> 
> Maybe we define marriage differently, that could be.


But you are citing extreme examples.

snooping is only morally justified when there is truly reasonable suspicion.
imo

if you have a spouse who wants to snoop on you without a truly good reason, then they are obviously overcontrolling and snooping is just a symptom of their neurosis, not the actual issue.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

The Middleman said:


> If you are in a real marriage, you have zero expectation of privacy.


This is basically how I feel. It's a "*willing*" thing, that we want to share with our spouse, to keep them in the loop....it's also what keeps us accountable to each other.. It makes for deeper conversations..a closer intimacy, a foundation of trust, all of it ...


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

But I agree with you absolutely. That's no way to live. Once you find out for sure, getout of dodge city as fast as you can.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

jld said:


> Why or why not?


*Unethical? Perhaps!

Illegal? Never!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

jorgegene said:


> But you are citing extreme examples.
> 
> snooping is only morally justified when there is truly reasonable suspicion.
> imo
> ...


That seems fair. Personally, I've never snooped on anyone, so my mind just doesn't go there, so maybe it's just hard for me to see why people want to live their daily lives, checking on their partners to make sure they're being truthful. Barring sensing that your spouse truly might be cheating on you, i don't see the need to do it.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

arbitrator said:


> *Unethical? Perhaps!
> 
> Illegal? Never!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Think about this.. can you even imagine how TWISTED that would be to make it illegal.. so the spouse who is faithful but feels the other is up to no good (and it happens OFTEN!).. will be charged - while this son of a B can sue them, maybe put them in jail, ruin their lives -while they go eat some more CAKE .... OMG [email protected]# 

I mean.. I think we ought to be very very careful in choosing a partner we can trust...any red flags of lying / hiding.. he/ she needs thrown out anyway.. but this.. heck you may end up in court, fined.. not OK !!

Though not much would surprise me today... if that did happen.. with infidelity strongly on the rise, sex sites seeking the married , making excuses for it... there are more people who'd vote for such action, demanding their "precious rights to privacy " were violated...


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Think about this.. can you even imagine how TWISTED that would be to make it illegal.. so the spouse who is faithful but feels the other is up to no good (and it happens OFTEN!).. will be charged - while this son of a B can sue them, maybe put them in jail, ruin their lives -while they go eat some more CAKE .... OMG [email protected]#
> 
> I mean.. I think we ought to be very very careful in choosing a partner we can trust...any red flags of lying / hiding.. he/ she needs thrown out anyway.. but this.. heck you may end up in court, fined.. not OK !!
> 
> Though not much would surprise me today... if that did happen.. with infidelity strongly on the rise, sex sites seeking the married , making excuses for it... there are more people who'd vote for such action, demanding their "precious rights to privacy " were violated...


As government officials always tell us, if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear. 

Hmmmm.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is basically how I feel. It's a "*willing*" thing, that we want to share with our spouse, to keep them in the loop....it's also what keeps us accountable to each other.. It makes for deeper conversations..a closer intimacy, a foundation of trust, all of it ...


SA what you are describing is transparency......that I agree with makes a successful marriage. To me snooping is investigating your spouse behind their back. Such as you having a diary and Mr.SA reading it without your permission. Transparency is having Facebook and sharing your password with your spouse.....no passwords on phones, tablets,etc. My version of snooping seems different then others here. In my house everything is left open. If my wife has a question if she sees something on a phone and tablet all she has to do is ask.
I would lose all respect for her if she is listening in on me while I am on the phone or puting a VAR in my car. For me that's crossing the line.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Pluto2 said:


> if you have an expectation of privacy from your own spouse-that's a horrible marriage.


My wife and I were discussing this point last night and she expressed what I think might be a nice way to express this.


No matter what level of privacy one expects in a marital relationship {which isn't a bad thing to discuss before, early on and throughout a marriage), perhaps we all mostly agree that no spouse has a right to secrecy {to withhold pertinent secrets pertaining to the other spouse's life and marriage}. That means mostly, there isn't and shouldn't be a right to privacy to hide an affair, commit crimes, secretly purchase and consume illegal substances or even alcohol/pot, secretly waste marital monies, secretly gamble or commit adultery of any kind {including secrets regarding one night stands, prostitutes, happy endings, etc.} from your spouse. 



Many posters have used the "hand me your phone" example as being bad, invasive or unattractive and I agree to some extent. For example, absent specific evidence of an issue, a husband doing that to his wife, to me, portrays a level of parenting her and making a show of dominance {maybe}. Depending how it is done it may also portrays a level of insecurity/lack of confidence which is unattractive. In my opinion, if and when it's done, it's better off done surreptitiously and only brought to discussion if something significant or relevant for discussion is discovered or, on occasion to remind them they are still be looked after {because you cherish them and your relationship}.

Contrast the appearance of overt control, dominance and insecurity with simply casually, probably briefly and surreptitiously checking your spouse's phone, computer history, or purse/wallet/whatever every blue moon because you love and cherish them. In a fully trusting and great marriage you actually invite scrutiny and fully share access TO EACH OTHER'S LIVES {mutual accountability} because you both understand your humanity and fragility {versus idealism and unsupported blind trust} and have a desire to walk alongside each other to minimize risk on those horrible moments and days the winds of temptation come blowing your way {and such winds always come ~ we are all subject to temptations}. 

Accountability is consensual and is partly my responsibility. My wife knows my passwords and knows where I log my passwords {and I log them on paper partly so she can see them or if I change one for whatever reason I don't have to alert her or I don't look suspicious because, on the off chance she checks, she can't access something}. She has access to anything and everything. If I clear my computer history, I may ask if she'd like to go through it or if she'd like me to leave it. She has the right to keylog me or record me, video me ~ whatever, if she chooses. We also try to be careful about communications with the opposite sex and CC or BCC emails or 3 way our texts ~~ especially when dealing with marriages in distress that we might be working with at church. We are united in protecting our marriage and each other.

Circling back to the point of this thread. Ideally couples would discuss this issue and indicate to each other that they want to be held accountable, their lives are mutually open to one another and their normal healthy non-abusive spouse without substance abuse issues can double check up on them covertly {and tastefully - no cameras in the bathroom} in a non-obsessive manner from time to time, whenever they want and without forewarning or even mentioning it. While I personally feel anyone who gets married has already pretty much consented to sharing their life and not withholding relevant secrets from their spouse and that either spouse should be, legally/ethically/morally free to spy/snoop on the other spouse to learn the truth about their own life and marriage ~~~ and that if someone wants a different deal than that maybe they shouldn't get married or maybe they should have to opt out in writing {like banking privacy laws}. I recognize we live in a falling world and a litigious one. By the time most persons realize they mistakenly and irresponsibly {we are to be our brothers/sisters keeper} put their idealistic trust in the wrong person for way too long, they're not going to get any consent or permission to hold their spouse accountable, therefore, one must be somewhat prudent about their manner and level of covert spying and careful about getting caught due to the possible but highly unlikely risk they could get in trouble. My feeling on this is that it's mostly going to be men that get caught spying and then broadcasting {exposing} to some extent illegally obtained material to a fairly overwhelming or obnoxious seeming degree that would get in trouble for this. Anyone with a strategic bone in their body and enough sense to know what they are doing is skirting the law and risky should be able to easily avoid prosecution or even harming their divorce/custody case. 

Once a divorce is filed and served, all snooping/spying thereafter, absent written consent {not likely} or property laws should be illegal. Property laws {I can do what I want with my property} should dictate {I don't know if they do} that I can 'spy' on my own phone, GPS my own car or keylog my own computer or even put a recording device in my own house. If the divorcing spouse doesn't like it, he/she should get their own individual phone, car, computer and living quarters. 


Actually, that case that was linked earlier was interesting in that I think the betrayed husband was legally allowed to use the family computer and discover anything that was on it {which a key~logger would merely show keystrokes on that computer} but where he got in trouble was using the email password and accessing her online email which was accessing a database or what ever outside the home/family computer. So if you key~log and then use the passwords discovered by the key~logger to access your spouse's online email account you can get in trouble but if you merely read the key~logger and what was typed on YOUR computer you wouldn't get in trouble. I just went to read more about that and it appears all charges were dropped against Leon Walker {link}, ironically, after his ex~wife {who isn't going to be prosecuted} admitted to reading text messages on Leon's phone. It's also interesting that the one of the few examples country wide of someone getting prosecuted for "hacking" on their spouse ends up being a black man, prosecuted by a white female prosecutor in a wealthier predominantly white county outside of Detroit. 

Well now I've gone down the rabbit hole further. Seems there might have been a lot of politics involved too. {link} . Have no idea how much of that is true but it is a pretty good indication that the blanket general warning of "you could be prosecuted for snooping on and/or hacking your spouse just like this guy in Michigan" probably doesn't apply to the general population unless you're a man whose WIFE is really politically connected, a cop or a judge/elected official {in an election year}.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

richie33 said:


> SA what you are describing is transparency......that I agree with makes a successful marriage. To me snooping is investigating your spouse behind their back. Such as you having a diary and Mr.SA reading it without your permission. Transparency is having Facebook and sharing your password with your spouse.....no passwords on phones, tablets,etc. My version of snooping seems different then others here. In my house everything is left open. If my wife has a question if she sees something on a phone and tablet all she has to do is ask.
> *I would lose all respect for her if she is listening in on me while I am on the phone or puting a VAR in my car. For me that's crossing the line.*


But what if THERE is reason to....what if a spouse has been "sneaky".. pulling away.. clutching their phone for dear life, sleeping with in, taking it into the bathroom.... come on.. something is going on...

@richie33 - In your marriage there is no reason to...but sometimes there is.. of course THIS is where I don't see anything wrong with it. You do what you gotta do to uncover the truth...gather some evidence against them ...heck if you catch them in a BOLD FACED LIE -even once... why trust anything they say afterwards ? 

Personally my husband would never be off limits to anything I wrote.. even a dairy... nothing I say would surprise him.. Admittedly I'm just an "Open book" though.. I like those types.. I trust them more so.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Ditto. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> If you are in a real marriage, you have zero expectation of privacy.


I want to apologize for using the term "Real Marriage", it was a poor choice of words. Maybe a better term to use is possibly "Traditional Marriage"? I mean, a marriage where the individual is less (or better yet not) important and it's more about the couple as one unit and the family as a whole. No matter what term I use, it's going to be politically incorrect, but more modern marriages stress individual fulfillment over the family. Just my opinion. In a "traditional marriage" you should have no expectation of privacy.

To those who that feel privacy is a "right" even within a marriage ... I ask: why is it necessary? As I see it, the only reason one would would require privacy from a spouse is because they are doing something that they don't want their spouse to know about, or would be embarrassing if the spouse found out. The only time you need privacy from your spouse is when you are planing a surprise party for them.

All the above being said: If they make snooping on a spouse illegal, then I have no issues with breaking the law. Why? Because the would be law is wrong. If I feel the need to snoop on my spouse, I'm going to do it; screw the law. And if my spouse lodges a complaint with the police, the marriage is over immediately and I disappear; no discussing it.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> But what if THERE is reason to....what if a spouse has been "sneaky".. pulling away.. clutching their phone for dear life, sleeping with in, taking it into the bathroom.... come on.. something is going on...
> 
> @richie33 - In your marriage there is no reason to...but sometimes there is.. of course THIS is where I don't see anything wrong with it. You do what you gotta do to uncover the truth...gather some evidence against them ...heck if you catch them in a BOLD FACED LIE -even once... why trust anything they say afterwards ?
> 
> Personally my husband would never be off limits to anything I wrote.. even a dairy... nothing I say would surprise him.. Admittedly I'm just an "Open book" though.. I like those types.. I trust them more so.



Of course I could understand why some do, if there are red flags I say do whatever you need to do to save your marriage. But maybe I am reading it wrong but some are saying you would be a fool not to spy or snoop even in a marriage with no red flags. That I don't agree with.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

richie33 said:


> Of course I could understand why some do, if there are red flags I say do whatever you need to do to save your marriage. But maybe I am reading it wrong but some are saying you would be a fool not to spy or snoop even in a marriage with no red flags. That I don't agree with.




I think where the confusion comes in is that some think (including myself) that there should not be secrecy in marriage. 

We only condone the actual snooping/spying where there is red flags. 

And that should not be illegal. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Think about this.. can you even imagine how TWISTED that would be to make it illegal.. so the spouse who is faithful but feels the other is up to no good (and it happens OFTEN!).. will be charged - while this son of a B can sue them, maybe put them in jail, ruin their lives -while they go eat some more CAKE .... OMG [email protected]#
> 
> I mean.. I think we ought to be very very careful in choosing a partner we can trust...any red flags of lying / hiding.. he/ she needs thrown out anyway.. but this.. heck you may end up in court, fined.. not OK !!
> 
> Though not much would surprise me today... if that did happen.. with infidelity strongly on the rise, sex sites seeking the married , making excuses for it... there are more people who'd vote for such action, demanding their "precious rights to privacy " were violated...


*The fact of the matter is that I've become so damned discerning that I may never find the love of my life yet again, primarily because of the mental mindset that "they all cheat or are unfaithful!"

But much like the precepts of our legal system, if the legal axiom of "probable cause" should ever present itself, then any suspecting spouse, IMHO, has the inalienable right to investigate to their own personal satisfaction any and all facts and data that might lend itself to the fact that his or her spouse is, or has cheated on them! In essence to make a gross determination if "a crime against the marital relationship" itself has been committed!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> No matter what level of privacy one expects in a marital relationship {which isn't a bad thing to discuss before, early on and throughout a marriage), perhaps we all mostly agree that no spouse has a right to secrecy {to withhold pertinent secrets pertaining to the other spouse's life and marriage}. That means mostly, there isn't and shouldn't be a right to privacy to hide an affair, commit crimes, secretly purchase and consume illegal substances or even alcohol/pot, secretly waste marital monies, secretly gamble or commit adultery of any kind {including secrets regarding one night stands, prostitutes, happy endings, etc.} from your spouse.


As an aside, one my sister's friends learned that her husband was fooling around because the financial information and tax returns weren't adding up. HE was a medical doctor and she was his office manager. She refused to sign the tax returns and at first thought he had a gambling addiction.

I know it's not foolproof, but the more a couple acts like a couple, the less easy it becomes to hide things.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Think that if you accidentally stumble upon something that raises a red flag, that's different than setting out to monitor your spouses' social media, phone, etc. Maybe I'm too trusting, and think that if someone takes vows with me someday, that I shouldn't have to make sure he is being honest with me. I would want to take him at his word. Obviously, if things don't add up, I wouldn't see anything wrong with trying to get to what's going on, if a spouse were to behave secretive. But, still think that a spouse deserves some privacy, so long as that privacy isn't translating into keeping secrets.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

If my husband was acting suspicious, glued to his phone, new password, out late all the time, etc. I would confront him, plain and simple. I would ask that he show right there his phone and email and if he didn't comply, I would just leave. I'm not sure why some are stuck on needing concrete proof. To me, all the other symptoms of cheating would be grounds for divorce. I wouldn't need to catch him in the act. If I even feel the need to resort to snooping on him, recording him, etc. then clearly our marriage is already over by that point.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Celes said:


> If my husband was acting suspicious, glued to his phone, new password, out late all the time, etc. I would confront him, plain and simple. I would ask that he show right there his phone and email* and if he didn't comply, I would just leave. *I'm not sure why some are stuck on needing concrete proof. To me, all the other symptoms of cheating would be grounds for divorce. I wouldn't need to catch him in the act. If I even feel the need to resort to snooping on him, recording him, etc. then clearly our marriage is already over by that point.


He could still say that he didn't do anything wrong. Imgaine everyone you know learning that you're some sort of psycho B, leaving your husband when he's done nothing wrong.

And what are you going to say, well, he wouldn't show me his phone one night when you had had too much to drink, of course.....

Hope you have an airtight support network then. Getting a divorce can be a lonely undertaking especially when all the friends you had and even family members now believe that you're psycho.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Think that if you accidentally stumble upon something that raises a red flag, that's different than setting out to monitor your spouses' social media, phone, etc. Maybe I'm too trusting, and think that if someone takes vows with me someday, that I shouldn't have to make sure he is being honest with me. I would want to take him at his word. Obviously, if things don't add up, I wouldn't see anything wrong with trying to get to what's going on, if a spouse were to behave secretive. But, still think that a spouse deserves some privacy, so long as that privacy isn't translating into keeping secrets.


Then I recommend {you can obviously ignore my recommendation at your own marital risk} that when you do marry someday you should PLAN to stumble away "accidentally" a little more often than you thought. It doesn't take much 'stumbling' to check up on a spouse ~~ nor does it take much stumbling {with conversation} for a spouse to be aware that she/he isn't really permitted to 

a. You answer their ringing phone or peek at who is calling, not to be intrusive or snooping but because that's what normal trusting in love couples that aren't cheating are absolutely free to do without it being a breach of privacy or big deal and either the call/text is from someone question worthy or they reveal seeming apprehension, won't share their password and otherwise demand privacy you've got your red flag;

b. They leave their laptop at home accidentally and you just take a quick peek at the browsing history; I mean, you checked up on your boyfriend why wouldn't you check up on your husband??? It's just human curiosity ~~ but instead of not saying a word about it ~ you are married and obligated to hold your spouse accountable for his browsing history so you simply have a comprehensive conversation about any issues you saw or congratulate him for being a clean living nice guy; or 

c. You 'accidentally' leave your phone at home or at work or your battery is dead and have to borrow his phone ~~~ and you happen to notice he is slightly or oddly hesitant, or maybe he needs to privately type in his password and/or hovers with an apparent need to watch exactly what you do on his phone ~~~ instead of passing it off as you being crazy and imagining things or otherwise conflict avoiding {because you fear being labelled a micromanager} you confront the issue right there and try to read if you really have a red flag which requires legitimate justified covert snooping/spying.

d. You 'accidentally' need to go into his wallet or purse, in front of them, to get a credit card or cash and you take notice that they seem to be reactive to such intrusion into "their" stuff ~~ another red flag deserving of a conversation to figure out how big the red flag really is;

e. His laptop dings with a facebook message and you, curiously, but without really any suspicion whatsoever just open it because you are sitting/standing right there and it's some old girlfriend or young co-worker chatting him up ~~~ which again leads to another conversation to ascertain how big the red flag might be.


MOST affairs don't happen overnight. They are often a series of bad choices the first of which are usually super innocuous sounding like being overly nice to the opposite sex, receptive to mild flirtations and compliments and inappropriate admiration and then over sharing of personal information. Many 'modern' couples do this all the time without even thinking it's bad or wrong. However, being situationally aware when you do actually "stumble" around and not completely naive and blindly trusting might just save you AND your {unnecessary risk taking susceptible potentially weaker charactered} spouse a lot of heartache if you find out and confront something as inappropriate like he's ONLY been playing facebook games with an old girlfriend from middle school who is unhappily married and asking him for relationship help & advice in the game's chat box long before he's banging such girl in a hotel room in Vegas. 


And~~~ I want to stress this again. It is a net positive being held or suspecting you may be held accountable for inappropriate behavior. I'm absolutely fine my wife checks (or can check) up on me because I've got nothing to be ashamed of and I'm not doing anything wrong. I've got nothing to hide so it's a complete non-issue to me so whatever level she feels necessary to check up on me is not my concern. Marriage isn't a prison. Maybe it would feel that way if I wanted to get away with crap but I don't so who cares. I'm pretty confident my wife isn't obsessive compulsive about it tracking me at every turn and it probably could/would be annoying if I was being interrogated about every little thing I did whether inappropriate or not. But we have a plan to stay married and in love until she dies {her preference ~ Ha} which includes not annoying one another too.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

LOL!! @Quality 

(I have never snooped on my bf, tbh) But, I will take this into consideration. You are funny.

Question though, why is your wife "checking up on you?'' You say you have nothing to hide, but there must be some reason she is doing this. You seem to think that it's just human nature to go into your partner's phone and email, but if you haven't given your wife any reason to check up on you, why is she doing it?

And if she were to catch you having a private conversation that is flirty with an ex gf on FB for example, how does her calling you out on it, stop the original intention? I understand your points, but I don't want to babysit a grown man, honestly. And I don't want to be with a guy who can't make solid moral decisions on his own, and needs me to police him.

We are different, I'm not saying I'd just leave the marriage, but I'm not spending my marriage policing behavior that shouldn't be going on in the first place. We're all human, but plenty of people do the right things ya know, without needing to be ''watched.'' 

They say that who you really are, is who you are when no one is watching.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

NextTimeAround said:


> He could still say that he didn't do anything wrong. Imgaine everyone you know learning that you're some sort of psycho B, leaving your husband when he's done nothing wrong.
> 
> And what are you going to say, well, he wouldn't show me his phone one night when you had had too much to drink, of course.....
> 
> Hope you have an airtight support network then. Getting a divorce can be a lonely undertaking especially when all the friends you had and even family members now believe that you're psycho.


Lol I hardly care what other people think of me, and I certainly wouldn't stay with a man who is clearly cheating just so I could gather proof and save face. How sad. 

And yes I have a great support system and great friends. They wouldn't judge me as harshly as you think. They are rational people and would definitely side with me. Hell, I could divorce today for no reason at all and they would be there for me. Just as I would be there for them for anything. That's what real family and friendships are about. I'm sorry you can't say the same for yourself.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is basically how I feel. It's a "*willing*" thing, that we want to share with our spouse, to keep them in the loop....it's also what keeps us accountable to each other.. It makes for deeper conversations..a closer intimacy, a foundation of trust, all of it ...


I think it is extremely arrogant that those that snoop and spy on their partners believe they are the ones in "real" marriages.

You might be surprised to know that we also have deep conversations, extreme trust (without the paranoia of spying) and we are accountable to each other.

We keep each other in the loop but the difference between how we live is that we actually do trust each other. There is no need to spy. I don't even spy on my kids, I trust that they are good, decent, honest young people.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

The Middleman said:


> I want to apologize for using the term "Real Marriage", it was a poor choice of words. *Maybe a better term to use is possibly "Traditional Marriage"? I mean, a marriage where the individual is less (or better yet not) important and it's more about the couple as one unit and the family as a whole. No matter what term I use, it's going to be politically incorrect, but more modern marriages stress individual fulfillment over the family. Just my opinion. In a "traditional marriage" you should have no expectation of privacy.*
> 
> To those who that feel privacy is a "right" even within a marriage ... I ask: why is it necessary? As I see it, the only reason one would would require privacy from a spouse is because they are doing something that they don't want their spouse to know about, or would be embarrassing if the spouse found out. The only time you need privacy from your spouse is when you are planing a surprise party for them.
> 
> All the above being said: If they make snooping on a spouse illegal, then I have no issues with breaking the law. Why? Because the would be law is wrong. If I feel the need to snoop on my spouse, I'm going to do it; screw the law. And if my spouse lodges a complaint with the police, the marriage is over immediately and I disappear; no discussing it.


You seem to have little idea of what other marriages are like. I would call mine a modern marriage but it is ALL about family and NOT individual fulfillment.

Before you go insulting others perhaps it would be helpful to learn more about life outside your bubble.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> You seem to have little idea of what other marriages are like. I would call mine a modern marriage but it is ALL about family and NOT individual fulfillment.
> 
> Before you go insulting others perhaps it would be helpful to learn more about life outside your bubble.


A little defensive, aren't we? I stand by my statements.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

The Middleman said:


> A little defensive, aren't we? I stand by my statements.


I have every right to defend what is a quality way of life and marriage. I stand by my statements as well.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Celes said:


> If my husband was acting suspicious, glued to his phone, new password, out late all the time, etc. I would confront him, plain and simple. I would ask that he show right there his phone and email and if he didn't comply, I would just leave. I'm not sure why some are stuck on needing concrete proof. To me, all the other symptoms of cheating would be grounds for divorce. I wouldn't need to catch him in the act. If I even feel the need to resort to snooping on him, recording him, etc. then clearly our marriage is already over by that point.


Then you get Gaslighting.

This video explains gaslighting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHTBK5XCkng


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> LOL!! @Quality
> 
> (I have never snooped on my bf, tbh) But, I will take this into consideration. You are funny.
> 
> ...


Got to run but I don't know if and when she is actually "checking up on me" so I just behave as though she is all the time. I don't think I send up any red flags and if I did she'd probably let me know or snoop on further me to ease any suspicion she may have. 


Why do it? As I mentioned before, WE value and cherish our relationship and want to protect it from another attack. Also, we both dated other people on occasion while we were dating off and on for 3 years and we were both promiscuous pre-marriage so running into old 'friends', even people we might have kissed in middle or high school happens from time to time. As the betrayed husband it would be all too easy for me to rationalize an entitlement to "get" my own affair or just flirt a little more than I would have otherwise because I somehow earned a little outside admiration. 

As far as behavior that shouldn't be going on in the first place. What would that be? Would you talk about your expectations and put some rules or limits on your spouse or would love simply be enough and he should just know and have morals? Does porn use bother you? Would it bother you if it was 3 times a day or just once every 6 months? Do you think he's never going to lie to you and that you're going to marry Jesus {the only actual sinless person ever}. 

As far as babysitting. I said I'm not really watching or snooping at all and I don't think my wife is either ~~ but she can and I'd rather behave as though she is so I don't have to sweat being shameful or lying about anything. 

As far as plenty of people doing the right thing ~~ again, how you define "the right thing" and your eventual husband defines "the right thing" may be completely different. For example, women have come on to me in the past and I'm completely oblivious. I'm friendly and outgoing and play well with others. Sometimes, my more observant wife has a problem with the way some particular woman seems to be interacting and flirting with me. I only see someone being friendly. I have no idea and in my younger days I would have debated with me wife about it as though she was being crazy and possessive or had no right, whereas now, her comfort is my priority and if she has an occasional {rare} problem with such I just shut it down or walk away. Amazingly, this has resulted in my wife, over the years, feeling much more secure in our relationship and therefore much less likely to feel any threat while also making me more cautious and observant of my interactions with the opposite sex so as to insure she's not bothered at all. The end result is she trusts me more because she knows she's always going to be my priority even if I don't completely or immediately agree with her definition of "the right thing". 

I was a terrible sinner as a single man and both of us were liberal idealists that thought like you guys the first few years of our marriage so my testimony would just say that I've repented and straightened myself out with the help of my wife and accountability partner. We don't want or need to risk "nobody watching" to prove we can do it on our own or that it's somehow not real because we're only supposedly behaving this way because our spouse is {or could be} watching. Character is defined by what you actually do not whether you are strong enough to withstand and resist every temptation life throws at you completely alone {and technically there's no way any spouse can watch over the other spouse 24/7 so we kind of are "doing it when no is looking' but because I'm not doing anything wrong anyway I don't ever care if she chooses to spy on me}. We push each other to do better and try to model "better" for the couples we assist. 

We're stronger together than alone ~~~ back to back we have a 360 degree view of our perimeter defense line.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

NO.

In a healthy, vital relationship there is no desire to hide feelings, emotions, events, or phone calls. You want to share these things with your partner, or why bother being in a relationship.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Then you get Gaslighting.
> 
> This video explains gaslighting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHTBK5XCkng


I understand that. But again, why does it matter? If my husband is aloof, the sex has dropped, he is glued to his phone, working late, being a jerk to me, changing his appearance etc. and I point blank ask him to show me his phone and email or I'll divorce him, but he gaslights me instead, I really don't need anything else. Our marriage is over. I suppose for those who are open to reconciliation, they would need proof so they can end the affair. But I would not forgive. If my husband cheated, I am out. And if he's being shady and uncooperative, then that's enough. 

I've checked out the infidelity forum. Pretty much every time the spouse that is being shady like I described and gas lighting, they were cheating. Why bother with weeks and months of torturing myself with trying to catch them?


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> NO.
> 
> In a healthy, vital relationship there is no desire to hide feelings, emotions, events, or phone calls. You want to share these things with your partner, or why bother being in a relationship.


The need to exercise such control and ownership of your spouse is very disfunctional.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Celes said:


> The need to exercise such control and ownership of your spouse is very disfunctional.


It is not a matter of controlling someone else, it is matter of setting expectations of other people that you have in your life and having minimum standards.

For example, in another type of important relationship, that of parent and child.

I had a lot of trouble with my parents because they have very low boundaries with some of the people that I was friends with. Looking back, I guess they were that when I was a child, but at some parent as an adult, you really have to break free from that. It is simply not healthy when parents insist upon triangulating with people you consider as friends. 

I had tried as per therapists' advice to be "open and honest" and talk with my parents. They were very uncooperative. I talked about this with a friend who admitted that she never continues a friendship with someone who makes direct contact with her parents.

At first I thought that was really controlling, But then I moved on to realise that contact with my parents was not tantamount to oxygen. That if someone required contact with my parents, then they simply could not be friends with me. It was not about control. It was about knowing what I wanted and what was right for me.

And so it is with the minimum standards in a romantic exclusive relationship. For anything that I want, it's not as important as oxygen, if someone absolutely needs whatever sort of freedom, then they are free to require it. And to find others who agree with him / her on this matter.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MrsHolland said:


> I think it is extremely arrogant that those that snoop and spy on their partners believe they are the ones in "real" marriages.
> 
> You might be surprised to know that we also have deep conversations, extreme trust (without the paranoia of spying) and we are accountable to each other.
> 
> We keep each other in the loop but the difference between how we live is that we actually do trust each other. There is no need to spy. I don't even spy on my kids, I trust that they are good, decent, honest young people.


Well this sure as he** came out of left field.. you have most certainly read into my words MrsHolland and took them personal to respond this way.... whomever used the term "real"... guess what.. it wasn't me ...

Though I seen in the following post what set you off.. someone associated that with a "Traditional marriage"... as you have shared what that word means to you before here ... everything bad, ugly and men using their power over women. 

You can freely judge me as you see fit.. I most certainly would go inside our teens room if they started hanging with a bad crowd of kids and I suspected drugs or something.. Sometimes a parent needs intervention- when you find them slipping away & lies start.... we've never been in that situation , thankfully.. but I would find it utterly foolish to trust children or a spouse who clearly was caught in lies, & had suspicious behavior.... I would be proactive to "get proof" in such situations... 

Too bad the parents of the Columbine school massacre didn't do just that [email protected]# 

My point was pretty much similar to what you said completely.. that because we trust and share openly.. there is no need to go there..


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

richie33 said:


> Of course I could understand why some do, if there are red flags I say do whatever you need to do to save your marriage. *But maybe I am reading it wrong* but some are saying you would be a fool not to spy or snoop even in a marriage with no red flags. That I don't agree with.


 You read me correct...Why would anyone feel the need to snoop if they felt romantically close, treated each other with love & respect..when their actions speak "assurance" of trust on a daily basis?

There would be no need to go there.. I can understand someone being very offended if they DID go there even... 

It's the














I'm talking about...of course.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well this sure as he** came out of left field.. you have most certainly read into my words MrsHolland and took them personal to respond this way.... whomever used the term "real"... guess what.. it wasn't me ...
> 
> Though I seen in the following post what set you off.. someone associated that with a "Traditional marriage"... as you have shared what that word means to you before here ... everything bad, ugly and men using their power over women.
> 
> ...


*Quote:
Originally Posted by The Middleman View Post
If you are in a real marriage, you have zero expectation of privacy.


SA.......This is basically how I feel. *

OK so you don't believe that there are "real" and "not real" marriages? You agreed with the quoted so it was confusing. The concept of real or not real marriages and that those that believe in spying are in real marriages seems so judgemental but all good, sorry I thought you were in that camp.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MrsHolland said:


> *Quote:
> Originally Posted by The Middleman View Post
> If you are in a real marriage, you have zero expectation of privacy.
> 
> ...


 the only defense I have for my resonating with his post was... the word "*Real*" did not jump out at me when reading his words.. as it did for you... but the other things he said, yes.. I agreed with his train of thought... that's all.. 

Ok.. his choice in using "REAL" was bad.. I wouldn't have said it personally (and I knew I didn't ) even though I may have liked another's post... One thing you learn here pretty quickly with the back & forths is how offending it is when others say "this is a real man" or "that is a real woman" -or in this case "a real marriage"..

Of course other people can live outside some of our ways / views & have a great marriage.. who are we to judge. If you're happy.. you're happy dang it - and it's authentically "REAL" for such couples...

Doesn't mean it would be another's brand of happiness... but it's still not to downplay theirs. 

I personally wouldn't be happy with a man who I felt rebuffed getting deeper with him or had a need for too much privacy.. that's my prerogative.. I am not a hypocrite.. I want to willingly share my all, I love the openness...so why would I want less in another... it just makes sense is all.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Celes said:


> The need to exercise such control and ownership of your spouse is very disfunctional.


See, I agree with this. To me, a healthy marriage isn't about making another person your entire world to the point where every move they're making, you think it's your business to know about it. When I marry someday, if my husband chooses to cheat, I can't say for sure, but the better part of me believes I'd leave and not want to reconcile. I say that now, anyways. But, to spend all my time and energy trying to track his whereabouts and who he is talking to, and phone records...lol I just can't see it. If my husband were to ever put me through this, because he is deceptive, he doesn't love me. 

Maybe some people feel that their marriage defines them, or if they divorce, that somehow this dubs them a failure. But, no one is a failure if their marriage ends. You can't control what someone does, no matter if you have passwords and such. If someone wants to cheat, they'll cheat, regardless if you have access to every account they have. If anything, they'll find another way, one that they know you're not monitoring. And I wouldn't feel like this makes a person more trustworthy, they are simply being watched by their spouse, at least on those accounts. That's just my take on it for now, anyways.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You read me correct...Why would anyone feel the need to snoop if they felt romantically close, treated each other with love & respect..when their actions speak "assurance" of trust on a daily basis?
> 
> There would be no need to go there.. I can understand someone being very offended if they DID go there even...
> 
> ...


I do get the vibe from some posters that even in a wonderful marriage with no red flags they still snoop. That I can't understand. Again I feel you and Mr.SA are fully transparent with each other so there has never been a need to spy or snoop.


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## Richle (Sep 1, 2016)

Oh, it is my shame. Few months ago I’ve got crazy. Everything in my BF annoyed me. But it was not his fault. He is perfect. Always caring, flowers at least one time a week, small and big gift. And finally my parents adore him… And my thoughts are not only about him. I was really out of mind those days. And I wished he was also not honest enough. So I started to spy on him. Really crackpot! First I’ve just read his messages when he left his cell phone close to me. It was such kind of game for me. But after I’ve found this information. And what? I’ve bought such app and I was spying all his online activities and texts for 3 days. Yes, it works. But how bad I felt after! I spied on person whom I respect. Who loves me and who trusts me. It was terrible idea and I hope never repeat such experience. Relationship without trust cannot last for a long time. But of cause everyone makes their own choice. Sometimes spying can be reasonable.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Richle said:


> Oh, it is my shame. Few months ago I’ve got crazy. Everything in my BF annoyed me. But it was not his fault. He is perfect. Always caring, flowers at least one time a week, small and big gift. And finally my parents adore him… And my thoughts are not only about him. I was really out of mind those days. And I wished he was also not honest enough. So I started to spy on him. Really crackpot! First I’ve just read his messages when he left his cell phone close to me. It was such kind of game for me. But after I’ve found this information. And what? I’ve bought such app and I was spying all his online activities and texts for 3 days. Yes, it works. But how bad I felt after! I spied on person whom I respect. Who loves me and who trusts me. It was terrible idea and I hope never repeat such experience. Relationship without trust cannot last for a long time. But of cause everyone makes their own choice. Sometimes spying can be reasonable.




He's perfect yet not honest enough. 

Why/how?

You then snooped and felt bad. Why?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Whether or not to snoop is something every couple will have to decide for themselves, and the answer isn't going to be the same for every couple. My husband and I are both really glad I DID snoop when I did. Today, I don't feel the need to snoop at all, and I don't.

But I do know that if I DID feel the need, he would do whatever he could to help me NOT feel the need any more. And that, I think, is the key. Should people snoop? That depends on the circumstances. But, in a loving marriage, if one partner DOES feel the need, FOR WHATEVER REASON, the other one shouldn't feel violated, they should be asking WHY their partner feels that way, and do everything they can to help them NOT feel that way. Including giving them passwords, opening up their devices, etc etc etc.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Whether or not to snoop is something every couple will have to decide for themselves, and the answer isn't going to be the same for every couple. My husband and I are both really glad I DID snoop when I did. Today, I don't feel the need to snoop at all, and I don't.
> 
> But I do know that if I DID feel the need, he would do whatever he could to help me NOT feel the need any more. And that, I think, is the key. Should people snoop? That depends on the circumstances. * But, in a loving marriage, if one partner DOES feel the need, FOR WHATEVER REASON, the other one shouldn't feel violated, they should be asking WHY their partner feels that way, and do everything they can to help them NOT feel that way. Including giving them passwords, opening up their devices, etc etc etc.*


YES, exactly this!!


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

3Xnocharm said:


> YES, exactly this!!




Only those not affected by infidelity wouldn't understand this. 

Sadly, they are giving advice on the subject. 

And they appeal to the BS's altruism. 

As well intentioned as they may be, they are doing more harm than they know. 


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