# Friendships and marraige...what is a good balance?



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

My husband and I have all mutual friends, all other couples. Most of these people we have been friends with for years, from our dating days. We have all gotten married and had kids around the same time. So most of these friends are also raising small children right now and as such, we do not get together as much as we used to. I would say we see them maybe once a month. That is the extent of the time that H and I spend with friends. 

Before any of us had children, we would get together at least once a week and GNO's / BNO's happened about once every other month.

My husband has never been a very social person, so it has always been up to me to make plans for us and keep our friendships alive. Currently, what little time we do spend with friends is only because I make it happen. My h has been invited to many BNO's (poker games and invited to play on fantasy baseball/football leagues) and declines all invites. Even though I told him it would be fine for him to go. GNO's are pretty non existent, really only occuring for special occasions - bridal showers, baby showers, etc. Most of us are past that stage now and it's been a long time since I have recoeved an invite for anything that was not a couples event. This is mostly because the women are the primary caregivers to the kids and it's not as easy for us all to leave our lids with the husbands to go out. 

My H recently read "No More Mr. Nice Guy." (Which I was happy about.) I have not read the book myself, but he mentioned to me that it says he should spend more time fostering friendships with other guys thru BNO's. I told him he should start accepting some of the invitations that come his way. He then turned it around on me, and said that I need to have more friends too and that I need to get involved in GNO's.

I was a little taken aback. I understand why the book recommended guy friends. My response is whatever makes him come out of his shell and makes him happier. But I have some strange thoughts on friendships in a marraige.

In general, I feel that mutual couple friends are great. Occasional BNO's / GNO's are ok, too, provided they are with a mostly married group of people and the focus is not to engage in singles activities. But I still expect my H to be my best friend. I still expect our narraige to be our primary source of enjoyment and friendship. I feel that we are missing this crucial piece of our relationship right now, and I have a hard time believing that the answer is to fill that void by looking outside the marraige.

I took offense a bit when he basically told me I need to make more friends. First, all my current girlfriends are just as busy with work/kids as I am, so we don't have time to get together for GNO's often. Second, I have been putting my effort into fostering that kind of friendship with my H instead (despite how much it feels like treading water at times). I didn't think I was doing anything wrong.

I support my husband in having his own activities and friends, but hurt a bit when he told me I had to do the sake. Also a bit hurtful that he's so readily seeking this kind of relationship elsewhere when I have been working tirelessly to grow it in our narraige - although he says "the book told me you'd say that." Sigh.

So, what's normal? I have a fear that if I start working hard to grow close friendships outside of my marraoge (even with other women) that I will lose my patience with my H and will be less willing to try to share my life with him. I see more harm than good, and can't get over feeling like that's not really what I want.

The thought occurred to me though, that maybe I have unrealistic expectations about what a marriage should ne. Maybe we are not supposed to be each others best friends and that realization really shook me to my core. 

Am I the weird one? Someone please tell me.,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

There is no " one size fits all " good balance with respect to outside friendships in a marriage.

The dynamics for each couple is different.
Your girl friends are busy, he thinks he need to spend some more time with men, you want to get closer to him.

A good balance can be found if both of you it and assess your needs at this stage in your marriage , and work on achieving it.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

You are exactly the type of girl i would need to even consider marriage so no, you are NOT the weird one. I agree with your views on friendship outside of the marriage. They should enrich and supplement your life but they should NEVER be a replacement for the friendship in your marriage. You don't seem to be the problem. You need to get your hubby to come to this forum where these good people here can set him straight.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

I can empathize with both of your situations. My wife doesn't have all that many friends, but I have some friends. Most of her friends are 3.5 hours away, so she doesn't really get much of a chance to go out. Many of my friends are just down the street.

Anyway, it makes me feel guilty sometimes when I go out with friends. It's not that she gets upset with me or anything, but I feel guilty because I feel like I should be there for her.  I used to pretty much ignore my bros because of this guilt.

I was okay at first, but it kind of gets irritating to not only me, but my friends after a while. Men need to have other male friends, and women need to have other female friends. Part of the reason your husband may have not been as social was because he would feel guilty for leaving you at home. I think the book says to encourage your wife to have other friends to get away from that a bit.

I don't think your husband has meant to offend you. Although I can see why you would feel hurt, I think he is just trying to make sure you and he have supplemental relationships also. Your spouse can't satisfy all of your companionship needs - just most of them. He's not trying to replace the friendship you offer him, he just needs something else on top of what you offer him.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

^ That is what I struggle with.

NEED those friendships? Really? 

I support him doing what he feels will make him happy. I cannot help but be a little edgy when told that I need to follow suit. It speaks as concrete proof to me that he has no interest in growing our relationship, but more that he wishes I would seek companions elsewhere to take the expectation away from our matraige (or more specifically, him). So I am left stewing this over in my head...either I am expecting too much from marriage, period (meaning this is wrong of me to expect in any marriage, regardless of who I was with), or he is screaming loud and clear that he does not WANT my friendship and cannot give me what I am looking for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

kag123 said:


> ^ That is what I struggle with.
> 
> NEED those friendships? Really?
> 
> ...


I can't speak for women, but from personal experience I know that I need male companionship, too. No, it is not going to ruin a man's life, but there will still be a piece missing. There are just some needs that your wife can't completely fulfill. 

For example, men are physiologically and psychologically programmed from birth to compete with one another. It is something that you don't want to do with your wife, because you don't want to assign a subconscious "pecking-order" between yourself and her. That's not to mention that I think most women wouldn't get it and just refuse to participate.

Just because he wants guy friends doesn't mean that he is disinterested in your relationship. It is probably even beneficial to your relationship, as he will become a more balanced person. He's not subtracting something from your relationship so much as he is adding something to his life.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

It's hard to answer your post without understanding why he is urging you to do this. 

My guess - and it is *JUST* a guess - is that perhaps you do have an unrealistic expectation of what a marriage is supposed to do for you. 

Outside friendships, especially with people who aren't mutual friends, can bring a lot of benefits to a person's life. It gives you a chance to widen your experiences and have more topics of interest to share with your spouse. It provides a source of comfort, sympathy, and fun so that you don't burden your spouse by wanting more of these things than one person can provide. It can help raise an individual's self-esteem. 

If the problems in your marriage have stemmed from issues like these, it might be a great opportunity to reconnect with your guy if you let him influence you on this.


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## librarydragon (Aug 20, 2011)

I have a small, but close group of girl friends...two who live geographically close, and two who live further from me.

I see the nearest two often, working with one. Between them both, I have frequent "girl" lunches, a glass of wine or two while we wait for kids' during their evening extra curricular activities, or an occasional big cook in someone's kitchen to fill a freezer or two (along with a bottle of wine). I have on-line chats with my distant, lifelong friends once a month or so.

My husband golfs once, maybe twice, a month with the guys, and has a weekly beer or two in the shop over tools and man toys with buddies.

The remainder of our social time is spent with each other, couple friends, family, or our kids. 

We do not have typical GNOs/BNOs, nor do we have opposite sex friends. Neither one of us feels either is appropriate in a marriage.

Most of my girls time occurs during my work day, or during times when I would be otherwise away from my husband anyway (waiting for kids). I choose to spend the rest of my free time with him.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I think your hubby is a real Nice guy. 

So I would take that encouragement for what it is. He is a Nice guy trying to be fair.

I think marriage friendly GNOs/BNOs are just fine.

That said, I will be honest that I have had my phases of spending time with male friends. I work hard and I like my family time. My wife is my best friend. I would rather spend quality time with her than anything else in the world.

I get plenty of other interactions from my colleagues and company trips.
I have plenty of me time to be sure. I like my GYM time too.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Just to be clear - I have got nothing against him having BNO's or his own activities. I have encouraged him to participate in things he's been invited to do. In the past he has always declined. Most of the time I wouldn't even know about it until much later (he would get invites, not me, and wouldn't tell me about them...I would find out a month or two later when I overheard the guys saying how they missed him at the last poker night or whhatever). I always asked him why he didn't just go, and he'd have an excuse ready. Most of the time it was money related - "buy in is too high" or some other excuse about it being a work night. I didn't press him. He's never been a social guy, he's very shy and quiet and when we are out together he typically relies on me to lead conversations. 

I just didn't understand why he was pushing me to do the same. I see what some of you are saying about his possible reasons.

FWIW, we both work full time jobs, which are usually 50-60 hrs a week (especially mine). I get plenty of interaction (I feel) and time away from my H with my coworkers. At the end of long days all I want is a soft place to land with my husband, but all I get is stonewalled and silence. His reaction at the end of a long & frustrating day is to withdraw, mine is to want to spend time together. I cannot force a friendship with him so I let him go and try not to take it personally.

Then the friends thing comes up - basically asking me to get my needs met elsewhere.

My initial reaction is...ok, so why be married then? I could have a lot more guilt-free fun with friends and making a social life without my marriage. I never pursued that because its not what I wanted. Not what I thought I signed up for. For example - I get invited to after work happy hours a lot. I never go, because its mostly a single crowd that goes and I felt it would be inappropriate for me to go due to that. 

Now I feel like I am being dealt a harsh dose of reality, that I was naive and foolish when I got married expecting things that just were too "pie in the sky". I feel like I was mislead or I fell for false advertising. 

I want him to be happy, first and foremost. Its evident to me that if he's not happy as an individual that we have no chance to be happy as a couple. (Hence, I was happy that he read the book.) But I have a lot to think about if I have to reconcile that my ideas and dreams for our narraige we're wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

It is the book. Probably a great book. He is trying to take action.

Yes for us folks that work a lot of hours we kinda get plenty of outside interaction.

Why is he reading this book. Just curious. Not that it is not worth reding but what problem does he feel he needs to fix?

I suspect you are being too hard on yourself and him right now.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> It is the book. Probably a great book. He is trying to take action.
> 
> Yes for us folks that work a lot of hours we kinda get plenty of outside interaction.
> 
> ...


We both agree that our marriage needs work so we are both reading books. I told him about a few that I had heard on TAM and he chose the nice guy one. He is too much of a nice guy, while I am too much of the opposite and I wouod like to achieve more balance in our m.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

It seems to me that you insist too much that you and your husband must befriend the husband and wife of other couples. that rarely happens and personally, I wouldn't push it. 

Or maybe it depends on what you mean by friends......

going out as a foursome is fine, but I wouldn't expect my partner to necessarily buddy up with the husband if the initial connection was with the wives; and vice versa that I may not be all that interested in seeing the wife on other occasions without my husband.

But then I have tighter definition for the concept of friendship in discussions like these.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

kag123 said:


> We both agree that our marriage needs work so we are both reading books. I told him about a few that I had heard on TAM and he chose the nice guy one. He is too much of a nice guy, while I am too much of the opposite and I wouod like to achieve more balance in our m.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see this kicked around alot. Can you define "too much of a nice guy". I have internal debates a lot about the whole, Alpha, Nice Guy, Doormat, Beta concept because there are so many dynamics.

I grew up being the "nice guy" and "friend" a lot. I wasn't a game player, didn't treat women poorly etc. Now in my first marriage, I went from nice guy to doormat. Frankly a lot of that had to do with my ex as much as me. 

In my current marriage I'm a nice guy who WILL NOT be a doormat. I've learned how to balance the nice guy with demanding respect and also maintaining my position in the marriage/family (Father/Husband). My wife does the day to day finances (writing checks etc) while I plan the budget and what we're doing long term. We both parent mostly equally, but there's definitely the "Do you want Daddy to get angry?" aspect that can be and is used by my wife (my kids see me as the bigger disciplinarian, when in reality my wife is much better with consistent discipline where I just have the bigger impact and am the one who you better not push.

I feel I've found the happy medium of being who I am (respect women, chivalry isn't dead, being the man of the house as in making sure children are taken care of first, then my wife, then me, I have the biggest shoulders so I should and can carry the biggest burdens when they come up etc.) but I also have a great deal of self respect and will not tolerate poor behavior/disrespect etc.

What makes him too nice.

I'm also confused by your initial post. In the first couple paragraphs you make it seem like you want him to be more social and you see this as a problem, then later you make it seem like you don't want him to be more social because then he's going to be neglecting you....You seem to not be ready to accept what you've wanted. You SEEM to be giving your Husband no margin of error.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

kag123 said:


> he mentioned to me that it says he should spend more time fostering friendships with other guys thru BNO's. *I told him he should start accepting some of the invitations that come his way.* He then turned it around on me, and said that I need to have more friends too and that I need to get involved in GNO's.


I haven't read the rest of this thread but this one seems so easy to me.

I bolded the important part. My sincere guess is he took offense to the suggestion so in a defense move he turned it back on you. He didn't like feeling like he was flawed in some way.

This whole friend thing to me is crazy. My husband and I are both introverted. He doesn't do BNO and I don't do GNO. We just don't want to. We aren't hermits as we do socialize and have friends it's not at the top of our priority list. We prefer to spend time with each other and with our kids. We think this is just one of those things society says you MUST do without considering the wants of the person in question.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

kag123 said:


> I took offense a bit when he basically told me I need to make more friends. First, all my current girlfriends are just as busy with work/kids as I am, so we don't have time to get together for GNO's often. Second, I have been putting my effort into fostering that kind of friendship with my H instead (despite how much it feels like treading water at times). I didn't think I was doing anything wrong.
> 
> I support my husband in having his own activities and friends, but hurt a bit when he told me I had to do the sake. Also a bit hurtful that he's so readily seeking this kind of relationship elsewhere when I have been working tirelessly to grow it in our narraige - although he says "the book told me you'd say that." Sigh.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The first question you need to answer is why you allow yourself to be hurt over this. I think we could all use more friends but I surely understand that we all don't make the effort because it's not that important to us at this particular time. What he might think about what you might do is really just that. A thought.

Maybe the way he expressed himself indicates that his delivery needs a little tuning. You might consider helping him with suggesting how he can best speak to you


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> I haven't read the rest of this thread but this one seems so easy to me.
> 
> I bolded the important part. My sincere guess is he took offense to the suggestion so in a defense move he turned it back on you. He didn't like feeling like he was flawed in some way.
> 
> This whole friend thing to me is crazy. My husband and I are both introverted. He doesn't do BNO and I don't do GNO. We just don't want to. We aren't hermits as we do socialize and have friends it's not at the top of our priority list. We prefer to spend time with each other and with our kids. We think this is just one of those things society says you MUST do without considering the wants of the person in question.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

While I agree that it is fine to encourage people to enpand their experiences I think we need to realize that people have their own view of happiness. Their own emotional needs. Also the different phaes we go through in life.

I do not seek out a partying life style. I did that when I was much younger. I have priorities for how I spend my time and how I wish to invest my energies. Now when I go on work trips and we have our worker bonding time, I am a pretty fun loving guy ... with boundaries from lessons learned I might add. But while I can socialize with the best of them I just do not seek this stuff out. It is not how I wish to spend my time. 

I have had my phases of car club stuff and working out with other guys at the GYM and so on. I used to play softball. I enjoy meeting with colleagues periodically for lunch and a few drinks. 

My wife has her marriage freindly GNOs. Most often lunch get togethers. She is a creative type always doing something like working with antique furniture, working on the classes that she teaches and so on. She enjoys this. It is not work to her.

I get plenty of bonding with other folks as part of my work.

I don't feel that I get too much time with my wife now. For many years our jobs kept us apart. So maybe I am trying to make up for lost time.

But if I was pushed to find other interests and in general to go do something else, I would resent it past a point. 

I think the OP was fine in suggesting that her hubby go ahead and accept some of the invitations he got. To let him know it was ok. But I can also see that he could feel pushed away too. He may feel if he wanted to accept he would, but flat does not want to.

I know I am a broken record but perhaps if they have not they should read His Needs Her Needs together.

I am wondering why she feels he is too Nice a guy. In what way? Some folks need to work on that. But some people do not. It could be like taking a medication that is not truly needed if followed blindly. 

I am a fan of MMSL. But I do not follow that blindly. There are things in there that are not for me.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Reasons why my husband chose to read the book:

- He is afraid to be assertive. In any situation, from big to small.

- He will not speak his mind, even when he has an opinion. His favorite reply is "Whatever you want to do." Or "I don't know, what do you think?" And never puts in his own two cents.

- He does not speak to anyone about anything ever, unless forced. This makes most people question if he dislikes them. They mistake his fear of rejection or falling flat as disinterest. I have gotten to the point where I question if he likes ME sometimes for the same reason.

- He makes all decisions based on what he assumes I want, and never on his own preferences. I have never criticized his decisions or opinions so I am not sire why he does this, but it has him doing some pretty crazy non-sense. 

- He wont tell me what he likes when it comes to simple things like food, clothing, music, what movie to see, etc. He asks me to pick. But he will certainly complain if I choose wrong. ! 

- Along the same lines, he does not tell me what he likes in bed. I have had to find out turn ons thru trial and error. He is passive in bed. I have to tell him what to do.

There is more...but does that paint enough of a picture? 

He found that he really connected with the portrayal of the "nice guy" in the book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I feel like I am having a hard time finding the root of why this bugs me so much.

We went on vacation last week, which is what prompted us both to take some time for ourselves to read some marriage books. It was a busy vacation, but we did get to go to dinner one evening by ourselves.

I forget how it came up exactly, but on the topic of sharing the principles taken from our respective reading, my H looked at me and told me that he has a hard time understanding my point of view. I feel the same about him. Cerebrally, we both hear and understand what the other says, but lack empathy. He looked at me and told me that he does not have a need to connect emotionally with anyone. Including me. He does not desire to talk and share feelings and so on.

Which I suppose is no shock, I knew via his actions that it doesn't come naturally to him. And I am sure a lot of other men relate to my H.

However, he then basically said that he feels that he shouldn't HAVE to fulfill that need for me. He shouldn't be expected to change. He didn't think he could.

I did not respond that evening, but it hit me like a ton of bricks that what I've been longing for in my marriage probably will never happen. So I suppose either I learn to enjoy what we have, or look for a way out. I just felt so shocked ....this is not what I thought I was signing up for.

Then he seemingly drove the point home, that I should seek friendship and emotional fulfillment elsewhere by telling me I need to spend more time with friends. Like driving the nail into the coffin, saying I want you to figure out another way to fulfill this need you have because I am never going to do it.

I don't know what to think. But right now I feel like a piece of my love for him just died. I feel myself withdrawing from him now and I think taking a step to seek pleasure outside my marriage is dangerous, for me, when I am in this mind set. I do not think I would cheat on him, but I do think I could easily shut him out entirely becuase it would be easy to fill the void somewhere else.

I can't help bit think this - in all the threads about lack of sex here, the consensus is that the LD spouse should concede and realize that they need to tend to their HD spouses needs, even if they do not have the same need. Basically they should go out of their way to make their spouse happy.

What he said to me feels like he just told me we weren't having sex ever again and I should go find someone else to have sex with me.

Is this making sense to anyone but me?

So I am a bit heartbroken. I don't know whether to lower my expectations, take his advice and find fulfillment elsewhere or whether I should stand up to him and say he doesn't get to cop out like that (not sure what this would accomplish) or whether I should steel myself and think of an exit strategy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

kag123 said:


> However, he then basically said that he feels that he shouldn't HAVE to fulfill that need for me. He shouldn't be expected to change. He didn't think he could.


I don't believe him. My husband used to say that (still does on occasion) but he doesn't mean it. It just means his self esteem is low that's all.

No way can I address this in a post. It took me years to understand my passive, unemotional husband but I did. Trust me he's VERY emotional underneath all that bravado. He's just scared of you that's all.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

kag123 said:


> Reasons why my husband chose to read the book:
> 
> - He is afraid to be assertive. In any situation, from big to small.
> 
> ...


I have not read the book. But he sounds like a nice guy. I just do not agree with saying guys like this are bad people.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

kag123 said:


> I feel like I am having a hard time finding the root of why this bugs me so much.
> 
> We went on vacation last week, which is what prompted us both to take some time for ourselves to read some marriage books. It was a busy vacation, but we did get to go to dinner one evening by ourselves.
> 
> ...


This would make me mad. I would want to know whether he was just echoing some things from the book or whether he really feels this way.

I think he is messing up big time.

As Mavash says, he may have a lot of things to come to grips with.

I hate FEAR.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> This would make me mad. I would want to know whether he was just echoing some things from the book or whether he really feels this way.
> 
> I think he is messing up big time.
> 
> ...


I don't know really where he came up with his declaration to me. I don't think it was straight out of the book - in fact I am pretty sire the book points out you need to open up to your wife more.

I have a problem though. At this point I am just mentally exhausted and tired of giving myself to him while getting nothing in return (emotionally). 

In turn, I am shutting him out. I just don't want to deal with any more heartache. I don't want any more meaningless exchanges with him. I am tired of putting on a happy face and pretending like everything is OK when I am not happy.

I feel like I need some space to digest this and figure out how I am going to proceed. I don't want to separate, but I don't want to spend a lot of time with him either and that leads to me shutting down and avoiding him. We haven't said a word to each other in 36 hours (we both worked late and opposite schedules the last two days so it helps that we haven't seen each other) but he's sending me emails at work and I just don't have it in me to respond with pleasant chit chat about nothing. He wants a neutral response from me because that is his signal that the issue is dropped and "resolved". I have simply not responded at all and claimed to be too busy at work (which I am, but we all know that it takes no time to quickly respond three sentences to an email, so he is aware its a cop out).

I don't know what to do. I feel really alone and like no one can possibly understand me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

kag123 said:


> He looked at me and told me that he does not have a need to connect emotionally with anyone. Including me. He does not desire to talk and share feelings and so on.
> 
> However, he then basically said that he feels that he shouldn't HAVE to fulfill that need for me. He shouldn't be expected to change. He didn't think he could.
> 
> ...


Now we're getting somewhere. I understand exactly how you feel. The message below has been helpful to me dealing with a similar situation

Webinar: The Anxious, Fearful, Emotionally Distant Spouse -- The Institute for Marital Healing


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