# Cleopatra



## blackdog (Dec 18, 2013)

This has gotta be the toughest decision of my life. I have a wife that I find that I could never replace. We have been married for 17 years and have 6 kids. We are having our fair share of problems at the moment. The biggest for me is that we have had a sexless marriage since spring and I am not sure if I can take it anymore. She has never enjoyed sex and never wanted to tell me until just recently. She is the type that does not want conflict and therefore bottles up her true feelings. She also thinks that the reason she has not ever enjoyed sex is because of something terrible that happened in her childhood. We went for our first marriage counsel meeting tonight and I have a lot of thinking to do before our next session about where I think things should go. Separation or divorce are possibilities, but I am not too keen on doing that to all these kids never mind her. I TOTALLY want to remain faithful but do not think I can live the rest of my life without sex. I hope this does not seem greedy on my part. She is SO busy with her career that she does not have time to seek separate counselling for her childhood issue for a while yet. She even offered to give us an open marriage so that I could find happiness that way. Not sure which path to take. Like I say, it seems like a VERY difficult decision to make. It is not fair to anyone that the family lives with our misery.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Other than sex, how would you characterize your relationship?

Men don't typically feel a lack of emotional connection until/unless the sex is affected. Women feel the lack of emotional connection first, and then sex is affected. This is almost universal, baring a problem with testosterone for him or a very high sex drive for her.

Your wife's childhood plays a huge role in her ability to trust, to allow herself to be vulnerable and to feel positive about physical intimacy. Many women with this issues do not become sufficiently aroused enough to orgasm. Therefore sex has no pay off for them. If you got erections, had sex, but never really orgasmed, you would becomes disinterested in sex too. If you felt that sex was something you gave up, but didn't get back, sex would not be a priority to you.

It's a long road to heal from childhood sex abuse (CSA) but it can be done.

Having said all that, sex IS vital in a healthy relationship. You need to have sex in order to feel HER emotional connection to you. As you go through MC with your wife, know that expressing how important sex is to you is vital for her to understand that her healing will make or break your marriage. It really is that simple. 

There are several other threads in this forum that deal specifically with a wife's CSA and healing from that. I'll post again with links to those threads.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/103202-wife-sexually-abused-child-hates-sex.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/126698-dont-care-sex-due-childhood-abuse.html

There are others in the physical mental health section of the forum.

I also wanted to recommend that your wife read this book
The Sexual Healing Journey: A Guide for Survivors of Sexual Abuse, 3rd Edition: Wendy Maltz: 9780062130730: Amazon.com: Books

The Courage to Heal 4e: A Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse 20th Anniversary Edition: Ellen Bass, Laura Davis: 9780061284335: Amazon.com: Books


The Courage to Heal Workbook: A Guide for Women and Men Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse: Laura Davis: 9780060964375: Amazon.com: Books


And this one for you


Allies in Healing: When the Person You Love Was Sexually Abused as a Child: Laura Davis: 9780060968830: Amazon.com: Books


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## blackdog (Dec 18, 2013)

Thank you so much, Anon. I see that I have a lot of reading to do which is good. Lots to absorb. The winter is a rough time for falling into any type of depression. So some of this reading material will help a lot between now and our next session. Thanks again.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You're welcome and good luck!


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Blackdog, welcome to the club you never wanted to even know existed. You are a *secondary survivor of child sex abuse*. Your wife is a survivor of the abuse. All of the loved ones around her are affected by it too, which is where the term Secondary comes from.

Your wife must get good trauma therapy to overcome the CSA. She is making excuses to avoid it. Trauma therapy is tough, and even the thought of going to therapy is overwhelming to many CSA survivors.

FWIW, I hate the term Survivor. She is the _victim_ of a terrible crime.

Another book to put on your list is "Haunted Marriage".

You are not alone in your situation. There are many of us Secondaries here. You should seek out some support for yourself either on one of the Secondary forums (e.g. Rape & Sexual Abuse Survivor Message Board, Support Forums & Chat Room ) or with a real group in your area. You would probably benefit some individual counseling with a qualified therapist who is experienced in Secondaries.

While your wife is not _to blame_ for her problems with sexuality and emotional intimacy, she is indeed _responsible_ to address the issues as an adult now that they are evident.

What you cannot do is to come across as blaming.  Any comment you make about her deficiencies will likely trigger a strong negative response and defensiveness. This is a fine line to walk! You have to convince her she needs to seek good therapy but you cannot tell her she _needs_ therapy.

CSA survivors have a flawed self image, and they wrongly attach shame to their current problems. That is, they usually feel a lot of shame and guilt about the abuse itself. They frequently feel dirty and unlovable because of the abuse. Then, they extend those feelings onto the current side effects. For example, your wife apparently has difficulty with being sexual, which is probably due to all kinds of negative thoughts and emotions linked to sex. And so she now feels shame and guilt for not liking sex.

Which is all wrong. You love her despite her imperfections. (CSA survivors can have a strong need to appear perfect to the outside world). You would not think of her as unlovable had she been robbed at gunpoint. CSA is a crime against her! Her current side effects are no different than if she had a physical injury due to the armed robbery. The physical injury needs to be healed by proper care. The physical injury is not her fault, because the event was not her fault. Yet the CSA survivor takes any comment about her current issues _as an attack_ on her. She _experiences your comments as blaming her for the abuse_ even if you are not doing anything of the sort.

Her failure to address her side effects is a fault of hers. She has the obligation to bring the best, healthiest person she can to a marriage. You can try to lovingly steer her towards therapy. One method is to carefully select a marriage therapist who has experience with child sex abuse cases. The marriage therapist likely will see you mostly together but also will do some individual sessions. This is not individual therapy, it is aimed at healing your relationship. But it is an entre to therapy, and the MC might help steer her towards a good IC for trauma therapy.

In the end she may not be up to the challenge. It is then heart breaking for you, but it is what it is. I admit to shedding many tears over my wife's CSA and the damage it brought to her life. CSA does, though touch you and your children. You may find ultimately the best result for everyone is for you to D.

Sex is likely a triggering situation for her. She learned about sex and sexuality in a terrible way as a young child. She was unable to have an adult perspective of what happened to her. Even as an adult it would be traumatizing to be abused, but as a child it literally changed how her brain was wired. You see sex as a fun activity which expresses love. It creates a feeling of closeness. To her it is something very scary, or worse.

If you didn't have children I would advise D after only a very short attempt at MC. Given your situation I think you should set a 6 or 12 month time period. Make a list of things to do, and then re-evaluate at the end of that time period. IC for you, MC for the two of you. You read all those books. Tell your wife you love her. Stop asking for sex, and stop talking about it with her. Work towards establishing safe non-sexual intimacy such as hugs or holding hands. Learn what her triggers are. For my wife there is one song and 2 food items which trigger her. So it isn't just sex which will trigger your wife. Set up some non-verbal signal she can give you if she is feeling triggered, because she may not be able to speak.

Good luck to both of you.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

blackdog said:


> This has gotta be the toughest decision of my life. I have a wife that I find that I could never replace. We have been married for 17 years and have 6 kids. We are having our fair share of problems at the moment. The biggest for me is that we have had a sexless marriage *since spring *and I am not sure if I can take it anymore. She has never enjoyed sex and never wanted to tell me until just recently. She is the type that does not want conflict and therefore bottles up her true feelings. She also thinks that the reason she has not ever enjoyed sex is because of something terrible that happened in her childhood. We went for our first marriage counsel meeting tonight and I have a lot of thinking to do before our next session about where I think things should go. Separation or divorce are possibilities, but I am not too keen on doing that to all these kids never mind her. I TOTALLY want to remain faithful but do not think I can live the rest of my life without sex. I hope this does not seem greedy on my part. She is SO busy with her career that she does not have time to seek separate counselling for her childhood issue for a while yet. She even offered to give us an open marriage so that I could find happiness that way. Not sure which path to take. Like I say, it seems like a VERY difficult decision to make. It is not fair to anyone that the family lives with our misery.


I'm going to have to toss an alternate theory out here and see if something clicks. 

Having had 17 years together and six children, I would have to assume that your earlier years together were near normal? Up until last spring you say? Then she suddenly reveals to you that she hates sex because of some childhood trauma? Maybe. Maybe not. Personally I'm not convinced that this is the truth, however I (obviously) don't know either of you. Could be the truth. Might not be. The only "truth" I see so far is this is the reason she gave you for not being interested.

So maybe there is something else? What happened in the spring? How were things with you two before the spring? Did she ever mention this childhood incident before spring?


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## blackdog (Dec 18, 2013)

Thor,

Thanks for the welcome. I have started IC a few weeks ago and would like to continue with it. However I am not sure if the counsellor that I have knows much about people like me that have such terrible mood swings (may have to switch therapists).

I would just like to take this time to say that it hurts badly when we walk to the door of the MC and she does not lock her arm to mine like she once did. Nor does she hold my hand or allow me to hold her at night.

She seldom wants to communicate either which frustrates me. But I simply bite my tongue and allow her her space.

Btw. I often tell her that I love her. But nights like last night when the kids started into a good fight and my mood went south, I shamefully did not tell her that I loved her on her way to bed before I grabbed a blanket and headed for the couch.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Is she about to be 40 or just turned 40?


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## blackdog (Dec 18, 2013)

Survivorwife,

Yes. I have known for some time about her childhood experience and am not quite sure yet if it is definitely the main reason for our martial problems or not. Just over a year ago she started employment over 2 hours from home and had enough time away to start wondering if marriage was not what it was all cracked up to be. She started liking the freedom and began wondering if I was not maybe too controlling of her. I have always handled the finances in our family and had to hold back on many things (for her but for myself as well). But now that brings back what I said before about her bottling things up. If only she would have said, "Hey!! Things would be much easier at home if we could budget that item." I would have talked to her about it (like couples should do) and found a way to dig up the cash.

She has also started a career dream that she has had for about 20 years (which she never told me about). I love to see her happy with it but wonder sometimes if it is not jealousy that I feel when I do not always support her. She started this career choice because I finally quit a job that I was miserable at for 3 years.


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## blackdog (Dec 18, 2013)

Thound said:


> Is she about to be 40 or just turned 40?


Yes. Soon turning 40.


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## Daisy2714 (Sep 22, 2013)

Thor said:


> Blackdog, welcome to the club you never wanted to even know existed. You are a *secondary survivor of child sex abuse*. Your wife is a survivor of the abuse. All of the loved ones around her are affected by it too, which is where the term Secondary comes from.
> 
> Your wife must get good trauma therapy to overcome the CSA. She is making excuses to avoid it. Trauma therapy is tough, and even the thought of going to therapy is overwhelming to many CSA survivors.
> 
> ...


Thor,

This hit so many triggers for me. I'm still in tears as I write this. I don't want to hi-jack this thread but I wanted to just tell you that I think you are giving some good advice. Even if the CSA isn't the full cause of their issues, it plays a part. Thank you for posting this. It has me thinking.

Daisy


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## blackdog (Dec 18, 2013)

Daisy,

I am new to forums of any kind and do not mind people "hi-jacking" my thread AT ALL. In my opinion, if we can all get help from this, then let the posts and suggestions roll.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Daisy, I hope you are well.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Blackdog, the added info gives some more insight into some avenues to explore as culprits for relationship problems.

She is the sole bread winner right now. According to Married Mans Sex Life Primer (MMSLP) being in a marriage where the woman earns more than the man, his sex rank drops in her eyes. When a man becomes a SAHD, his sex rank drops even lower. While I am not an adherent to MMSLP, there is some validity in varying degrees to his theory. Might be interesting to read for you.
Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.

You mentioned your terrible mood swings. Well, piggy backing on the ideas put forth in MMSLP, your mood swings may also be killing her attraction toward you. Most women want their man to be their rock solid and steady ship.

You also mentioned your marriage counseling session in which she did not link arms and your omission of saying I love you before you went to the couch.

There is a famous and oft recommended thread here by a member MEM11362. Read this first before you read the other link I provided.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html

Two last thoughts. First, her CSA may or may not be at issue here. If you previously had a good sex life up until a year or two ago and then things started heading south, or shortly after you quit your job things started heading south, her CSA is not at issue here. Secondly, her CSA complicates things because emotional vulnerability inhibition tops the list of dysfunctions for CSA survivors. This means fixing problems not caused by CSA's lingering effects is tricky because emotional insight and honesty is very hard with someone too afraid to be vulnerable.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

blackdog said:


> Yes. Soon turning 40.


I figured as much. It appears at this age women begin to reevaluate their lives. They begin to remember all the hurts real or imagined. This combined with perimenopausal wreak havoc on her life.

Give her space and don't be needy. Work on yourself by working out losing weight and eating right. Be upbeat and happy around her. Don't ask about your relationship. Be strong.
Best wishes.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

I would like to add if she wants to leave, don't beg her or guilt her into staying, because if you do, both of you will be miserable. Take it from me I know.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

New job, no sex, and offers of " open marriage"........ Well that sounds way to familiar.

Signed
The guy with he cheating wife

My I suggest some stealthy investigation. If your going to fight for this marriage then know what your fighting. Being the perfect husband won't help you if your competing with a new love in your old ladies life. All the MC in the world won't help if she is addicted to another man/ coworker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Blackdog, what is the overall history of your marriage? Was there sex before marriage? How did it change after the wedding? After the first child was born?

Did she have other sex partners before you?

How about the emotional intimacy part. How was that before, and how did it change over the course of the marriage?

What is the story on this job 2 hours away? Does she commute 4 hours every day? Does she stay overnight sometimes?

Are you not working at all now?


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## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

How likely that women who are CSA survivors would cheat?


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## blackdog (Dec 18, 2013)

Thank you, Aerith. I should have asked that question a while back. I have had some long talks with my wife and I am lead to believe that she just does not like sex at all. I am not sure if it is the fact that she is a CSA survivor or not. Good question.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Aerith said:


> How likely that women who are CSA survivors would cheat?


Statistically, being a female CSA survivor is one of the top 3 risk factors. A prior history of cheating and one other thing I can never remember are the top 2 risks.

But it is not simple. Some abuse survivors learn to cope by acting out, whereas others act inward. Inward acting includes things such as eating disorders, cutting, depression, etc. Acting out includes sexual promiscuity, verbal outbursts, etc. The inward acting victims tend to be sexually restrained or prudish, and are not more likely than average to engage in infidelity. Outward actors, though, are more likely to engage in infidelity.

All of this is statistics and not individual. So one should not jump to conclusions about any particular individual.


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## blackdog (Dec 18, 2013)

Thor,

I did not want to answer your questions before because the answers might cause many on this forum to think irrationally without personally knowing either my wife or myself.

However, she did have a couple of sex partners before we were married. I believe both our sex life and intimacy slowly decreased as our family got bigger and we sadly got older. 

Her job left her no choice but to stay there for days at a time. But we would often go to see her. In fact, some of the teenagers would stay there for the few days that she would be there in the summer months.

I would love to be in the workforce once again but unfortunately I do not have time with caring for a big foster family. I do however work about a day a week for a neighbour on a "as he needs me basis".


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Your not working may be part of the problem. Most women want their men to be the bread winner. By her making the money it lowers your sex rank. I dont care what anyone says there is a lot of truth about sex rank.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blackdog (Dec 18, 2013)

Thound said:


> Your not working may be part of the problem. Most women want their men to be the bread winner. By her making the money it lowers your sex rank. I dont care what anyone says there is a lot of truth about sex rank.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, Thound. And I don't doubt that for a minute. The spot that I am in though is that she already said that if I went back to work and she was forced to quit her short course that she is taking now that is going to give herself a better position at work, she would have even less feelings for me. She has worked very, very hard to receive some excellent grades, so I kinda see her point.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

You need to start upping your sex rank immediately. Did you read MMSLP as suggested? It's not the be-all and end-all, but it's the biggest information bang for the buck in one place you'll ever find on the subject of keeping a woman interested in the long term.

Does she drive in her commute? If so, you probably should VAR and GPS her wheels, just so you can find out what you're up against, if anything. Alternatively, have a PI check her out and see how her lunch hours and evenings are spent.


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