# Things Have Changed So Why Do I Feel Worse?



## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

This is an odd story, and I'm unsure how to move forward. My wife has recently changed for the better, but I'm angrier and more distant than I can remember being.

Back story- Married for 12 years after dating for two. (My second, her first.) When we met she was coming out of an abusive, dysfunctional relationship. (I was unaware of the extent until much later.)

Things were good while we were dating. We engaged in a variety of fun sexual things, and everything was on the table, so to speak. Things did run hot and cold sexually, and she had some trouble orgasming for the first year or so we were together- found out later this was due to her past.

After we were engaged she shared some of her abusive past, which explained some sexual issues. I suggested she go to counseling, which we did together. This helped minimally, but there was a tiny bit of progress... for a month or two, and the it went right back to the way things were. We stopped the counseling when we moved and lost our health insurance.

After being married for a year or so and having more sexual problems- fading interest, duty sex- my W shared with me that she had basically been forced to have sex/oral sex by her ex- including her first time. (It was not rape, but it was under coercion.) 

At this point, I strongly suggested counseling, but I also backed off of demanding things change sexually, as I felt it was more important that she deal with these issues. She went to counseling for a short time, but her behavior did change- again a tiny amount and for a month or so. 

About 18 months into our marriage my W told me she no longer wanted to give or receive oral sex. She explained that this was due to her abusive past. She was not open to talking about this. Whenever I would try to talk about it and explain how I was feeling about this, she would end up sobbing- as in heaving sobs. I was angry but also trying to understand her abusive past and again urging counseling.

After a couple of years of maybe once a month duty sex and nothing else ( and her not in counseling), I began to get VERY resentful. It was at this point that my wife discovered she was infertile-basically- which crushed her. I made the decision to work with her on the infertility issues with the idea being that we would aggressively deal with the sexual issues after we got things figured out. Well, the infertility issues lasted for three years and wound up being much more complicated than we expected. So basically sex was terrible for the five years we were married - except for this few months when she would make a big effort to change. When we did have sex it was terrible-duty sex and not much else. She would turn me down about 80-90% of the time. I struggled with confidence issues and the lack of emotional connection with my wife.

Right after our daughter was born, she started talking about having another child, and I said, "F*ck that! We either deal with our sexual problems or I am leaving." This absolutely shocked her- she calls it one f the hardest times in her life.

We then went to a couple of sex counselors for several years, which helped things a bit. She was at least now somewhat engaged in our sexual activity, and she would once in a blue moon ask for sex. Still no oral sex or much else. She would turn me down around 30-40% of the time.

Fast forward to August- we moved to another country, which was stressful, but some of her old sexual behaviors came back. I basically said, "We either fix this or I am leaving." After many tears she began to go to counseling in earnest. She read everything she could get her hands on about sex and abuse. She read about men and women's perception of sex, she worked on healing herself for her, which was a huge change.

Things greatly improved at this point. She was very engaged, brought back oral sex on my and the counselor's urging, almost never said no, initiated, etc... Everything is cool, right? No.

At this point, I have become very angry about what has gone on with our sexual past. (Which I realize is something I did not deal with at the time.) I'm VERY angry at myself for letting this go for so long. I feel like I was incredibly weak, which makes me feel emasculated. I'm also very angry at my wife that it took until I had one foot out the door before she decided to put her full energy into healing. All the years where we were both hurting were such a f*cking waste of time. 

So, I'm not interested in sex with my W, and I'm seriously thinking of being on my own. 

(And before I get the ridiculous question that is asked or hinted at on every thread on this board, No, neither of us has ever had an affair.)

Any input?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You've been the victim of her abuse almost 12 years. She had to be dragged kicking and screaming to get help. You're wondering why you don't trust her or why you don't run after her with sexual abandon? We teach others how to treat us and she has spent over a decade teaching you that she's not your willing sexual partner, that she finds you undesirable, and that your needs aren't important to her. There is a price for all we do and the price for withholding sex and affection is resentment. One can't just steal 12 years of another person's life and pretend it never happened or expect there will not be ill consequences.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

I'm not sure if my case is exactly the same but i've grappled with the same feelings.

Pretty sexless from around marriage time through the past 4 years or so. Wife seemed sometimes distant and sometimes much less affectionate over years. I made some changes and put foot down like you. Seen great strides over past 2-3 months. Yet even with improvement, I find myself pissed off for no reason at her. Or full of resentment. So I think this is sad, but normal. 

If you're like me, you likely overthink everything she does. I struggle with figuring out if she loves me, desires me, is this temporary, why did she not want me before etc..

The best thing you can do is give it a fair chance, and then peace out if you have to.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Lots of built up resentment from years of being neglected will do that. I think I would feel the same way if/when my wife ever decides to start caring again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> You've been the victim of her abuse almost 12 years. She had to be dragged kicking and screaming to get help. You're wondering why you don't trust her or why you don't run after her with sexual abandon? We teach others how to treat us and she has spent over a decade teaching you that she's not your willing sexual partner, that she finds you undesirable, and that your needs aren't important to her. There is a price for all we do and the price for withholding sex and affection is resentment. One can't just steal 12 years of another person's life and pretend it never happened or expect there will not be ill consequences.


This 

plus what you wrote:

At this point, I have become very angry about what has gone on with our sexual past. (Which I realize is something I did not deal with at the time.) I'm VERY angry at myself for letting this go for so long. I feel like I was incredibly weak, which makes me feel emasculated. I'm also very angry at my wife that it took until I had one foot out the door before she decided to put her full energy into healing. All the years where we were both hurting were such a f*cking waste of time


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Did you ever have the second child she wanted? Is it possible her current state is fueled by the desire for a child and not by wanting to make things right with you?


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

Never had the second child, and we are now unable to have a second child. That has not been an option for a couple of years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Sounds like it is your turn for more counseling. I guess all people are affected by their past and need to learn to let go of fears and resentments and move on with life.

I don't know what you want. Your reaction seems fairly normal. You fell out of love with your wife and you are going to need to reestablish it if you want that.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> You've been the victim of her abuse almost 12 years. She had to be dragged kicking and screaming to get help. You're wondering why you don't trust her or why you don't run after her with sexual abandon? We teach others how to treat us and she has spent over a decade teaching you that she's not your willing sexual partner, that she finds you undesirable, and that your needs aren't important to her. There is a price for all we do and the price for withholding sex and affection is resentment. One can't just steal 12 years of another person's life and pretend it never happened or expect there will not be ill consequences.


:iagree:


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

I can't put my self in your wife's shoes and I feel for any woman who has been abused because it's unacceptable in any form but if there is a serious relationship and a couple such as yourself and your wife, don't you think that she should bring this problem fully out in the open because if your going to be married, it's going to have an impact on the marriage especially if he doesn't have the full story.

Before anyone says it, I know that it's a really hard thing to talk about but her future husband should have an idea as to what he might have to deal with in the marriage. I hope I'm not out of line on this. Wasn't meant to be.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I think when you are younger you aren't capable of realizing how something is going to affect you over time.

Perhaps in the early stages of a sexual relationship things seem fine and you believe you have just been able to move along from the past. I think the after affects of abuse are played out for many years to come.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

How long was this first relationship of hers? Did she have childhood abuse as well or is the sum of her damage from this previous relationship?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

6301 said:


> I can't put my self in your wife's shoes and I feel for any woman who has been abused because it's unacceptable in any form but if there is a serious relationship and a couple such as yourself and your wife, don't you think that she should bring this problem fully out in the open because if your going to be married, it's going to have an impact on the marriage especially if he doesn't have the full story.
> 
> Before anyone says it, I know that it's a really hard thing to talk about but her future husband should have an idea as to what he might have to deal with in the marriage. I hope I'm not out of line on this. Wasn't meant to be.





MissScarlett said:


> I think when you are younger you aren't capable of realizing how something is going to affect you over time.
> 
> Perhaps in the early stages of a sexual relationship things seem fine and you believe you have just been able to move along from the past. I think the after affects of abuse are played out for many years to come.


Both of these are correct, and at the same time they are irreconcilable.

My wife was sexually abused as a child. The effects still haunt her today at age 50+. She did not recognize her behavior as a teen as being highly influenced by the CSA, and she felt she was compartmentalizing the abuse in a way which made it a non-issue in her life. She never told me about it until after 28 years of marriage!

She even denied it when I asked 2 or 3 times early on in the marriage.

From her perspective she believed she had it "under control", and she was/is completely unable to recognize the widespread effects it has had. This is typical, and it is understandable.

From my perspective I feel she deceived me about a huge issue which has affected every aspect of our marriage for over 30 years. There were times when she most certainly did not have it "under control", yet she never told me and she refused any MC out of fear I would find out.

I was the poster boy of a Nice Guy, and thus never dealt with the issues by establishing solid boundaries and expectations within the marriage. TopsyTurvy, I can fully relate to your feelings of anger towards yourself for letting things go. I can also understand your current feelings. I think you should try to journal about what you are thinking and feeling, to try to get to the bottom of why you feel this way. Then you can move forward in one direction or another.

Do you believe your wife is authentic with her new behaviors?

Do you trust her now? Deeply and without reservation?

Do you feel safe opening yourself up to her?

Are you angry at her or only at yourself?

Do you have unresolved resentments towards her?

If so, can you identify the basis of them? For example, do you feel cheated by her out of good years? Something else?

What would it take to resolve the resentment of her (if it exists)? Does she need to sincerely apologize? Do you need to believe she really understands the harm she did to you? Do you need her to make some form of amends?

Do you feel like the sex is empty?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

First, I think you should be honest with her--if you have not already--and tell her what you posted here. 

There isn't any shame in having arrived where you are, but it would be a shame if you let this waste another decade of both your lives. 

This is your issue to work on: do you want to? 

If you are at all motivated to punish her for the hurt you feel (such as by staying and letting the anger fester), I think you need to think long and hard about what that is going to do for YOU--and how you are going to feel about yourself when it's all said and done and you are both torn to shreds emotionally. 

You seemed to have given it your all--maybe you gave too much--but realize that she might not give the same to you if you decide to stay but not work on your anger.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Wow, your post does an excellent job of expressing my feelings on this issue. We have different pasts, but my current feeling and situation is almost identical. 

Sorry, I have no idea how to fix it. I'm at the point where now it's me giving duty sex.....although I'm better at it than she ever was.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

It is not uncommon for there to be many intertwined issues as a result of sexual abuse/assault beyond an aversion to sex. In your case your wife stated she didn't want to do oral, but there are surely other issues as well. Perhaps it affects her parenting, or perhaps she has a high need for control. Or maybe she hates going out to restaurants but you really want to go out sometimes.

So do you think there are other things contributing to your marital dissatisfaction beyond just the history of sexual problems?

It is common for marriages to fail even after one or both partners make changes. I've seen a lot of such things especially when sex abuse or assault are involved. Sometimes you just can't make it work.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

MissScarlett said:


> Did you ever have the second child she wanted? Is it possible her current state is fueled by the desire for a child and not by wanting to make things right with you?


I'd just about guarantee it. It's always about "them" and anything that looks like a departure from their usual selfishness is usually just more selfishness wearing a disguise.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Are you completely disinterested in sex in general or is it nearly impossible for you to get excited about having sex with her? If you are feeling disinterested in sex in general, a trip to the doctor can probably fix that. If you're scoping out every other woman on the planet but not her, the problem is related to her.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Dont feel guilty. This is a natural reaction to having your needs go unmet for too long. Regardless of why, it wasnt happening. She had the power to at least TRY to make it better and from what I'm reading she made half hearted attempts. She also should have disclosed the full history prior to marriage. 

I dont know what to say that will help. Hang in there.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> I think when you are younger you aren't capable of realizing how something is going to affect you over time.
> 
> Perhaps in the early stages of a sexual relationship things seem fine and you believe you have just been able to move along from the past. I think the after affects of abuse are played out for many years to come.



I actually think you nailed it. She definitely thought she could leave her past behind her and move forward. It was never a situation where she knew how badly the abuse had affected her and she lied about it. 

I have been to counseling with her, and I know the pain she feels is real. The ex, who she was with for five years, was a complete *******-bad boy - to her. He was a lying, drug addict, and he sexually abused her. Oh, and his parents were good friends with her parents. I'm not trying to blow my issues off, but her past has to factor into this discussion. 

I think she was in denial and I know it was honestly overwhelming for her to deal with. I just think she wasn't aware of the toll it was taking on me- and she should have based on everything I said.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Are you completely disinterested in sex in general or is it nearly impossible for you to get excited about having sex with her? If you are feeling disinterested in sex in general, a trip to the doctor can probably fix that. If you're scoping out every other woman on the planet but not her, the problem is related to her.


I am generally not interested at all in sex. She is wanting things to happen, and she initiates, but I am not in the mood at all. I'm okay with taking care of myself, but that is about it.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

Thor said:


> It is not uncommon for there to be many intertwined issues as a result of sexual abuse/assault beyond an aversion to sex. In your case your wife stated she didn't want to do oral, but there are surely other issues as well. Perhaps it affects her parenting, or perhaps she has a high need for control. Or maybe she hates going out to restaurants but you really want to go out sometimes.
> 
> So do you think there are other things contributing to your marital dissatisfaction beyond just the history of sexual problems?
> 
> It is common for marriages to fail even after one or both partners make changes. I've seen a lot of such things especially when sex abuse or assault are involved. Sometimes you just can't make it work.



She really doesn't have many control issues to speak of. After speaking with so many counselors, I really started to understand the depth of the abuse she suffered. Having said that, the counselors acknowledged that my needs we're not being met, and that was a slap in the face to my wife. 

Trust me, if I thought that this behavior was not directly related to the abuse she suffered, I'd be gone.


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## PinkSalmon13 (Nov 7, 2013)

I think it may feel bad because you may have hit that point of no return, and that's hard to take. That point, at least for me, brings about quite the ****tail of feelings: guilt, shame, anger, resentment, hope, fear, denial, sadness, confusion, anxiety......and ultimately you may be feeling an overriding sense of pure anger because you've been thrust into this condition against your will, and in direct opposition to all your hopes and dreams when you both said your vows.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

PinkSalmon13 said:


> I think it may feel bad because you may have hit that point of no return, and that's hard to take. That point, at least for me, brings about quite the ****tail of feelings: *guilt, shame, anger, resentment, hope, fear, denial, sadness, confusion, anxiety...*...and ultimately you may be feeling an overriding sense of pure anger *because you've been thrust into this condition against your will, and in direct opposition to all your hopes and dreams when you both said your vows*.


:iagree:

so true


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

PinkSalmon13 said:


> I think it may feel bad because you may have hit that point of no return, and that's hard to take. That point, at least for me, brings about quite the ****tail of feelings: guilt, shame, anger, resentment, hope, fear, denial, sadness, confusion, anxiety......and ultimately you may be feeling an overriding sense of pure anger because you've been thrust into this condition against your will, and in direct opposition to all your hopes and dreams when you both said your vows.


I definitely agree with the last part of your comment. I feel like I have had to pay a pretty steep price even though I have been loving and supportive. I think I have run out of patience and understanding. After 12 years together, one would think this would no longer be an issue.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

It's okay to move on if you're not happy. Bottom line is, your wife is responsible for her own mental and emotional health. Instead of dealing with when it happened, she married you thinking that marriage would make it all better....make it all go away. Well look what has happened. I say cut your losses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> How long was this first relationship of hers? Did she have childhood abuse as well or is the sum of her damage from this previous relationship?


She was with him for five years-off and on. He was her first piv experience and her first with giving oral sex. 

She did not have childhood abuse, other than religious dogma. She was planning on waiting until she was married or engaged to have sex, so the experience with her ex rocked her world.


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## PinkSalmon13 (Nov 7, 2013)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> After 12 years together, one would think this would no longer be an issue.


I'm at 33 years together. Been together from age 19 to now almost 53. I was always a 'for better or worse' guy.........but no one told me how bad 'worse' could get, and that it would come from my wife.

Hang in there, man. I know it's a mind-bogglingly bizarre place to be in.


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## PinkSalmon13 (Nov 7, 2013)

[deleted by poster - was mixing two OP postings/stories ..... sorry!]


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

PinkSalmon13 said:


> Your wife's abuse at the hands of her own grandfather is appalling. I hope she is able to find peace going forward.
> 
> My wife's dad use to tickle the kids when they were little. She has described that he'd keep tickling her against her objections and to the point she'd pee, and her dad would just laugh about it. She's angry about this, and hated the sense of being out of control of her body and someone not stopping. This isn't sexual abuse, but it's the abuse of someone's body and dignity, and I've wondered if this has helped cause some of her issues with intimacy and affection. Who knows.


No, no, no. She was not abused by a family member, it was her boyfriend whose parents were/are good friends with my in-laws.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

PinkSalmon13 said:


> Your wife's abuse at the hands of her own grandfather is appalling. I hope she is able to find peace going forward.
> 
> My wife's dad use to tickle the kids when they were little. She has described that he'd keep tickling her against her objections and to the point she'd pee, and her dad would just laugh about it. She's angry about this, and hated the sense of being out of control of her body and someone not stopping. This isn't sexual abuse, but it's the abuse of someone's body and dignity, and I've wondered if this has helped cause some of her issues with intimacy and affection. Who knows.



That's a different thread.


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## PinkSalmon13 (Nov 7, 2013)

:iagree: True. Sorry, OP, I didn't mean to hijack. I have deleted.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> Trust me, if I thought that this behavior was not directly related to the abuse she suffered, I'd be gone.


You are a Secondary Survivor. Your wife is a Survivor. Either it was rape or some form of abuse, though not _childhood_ sex abuse. Perhaps some form of emotional abuse.

Her situation is a bit outside of my familiarity, but I do wonder if there is more in her background you don't know about. If she willingly participated in sexual activities, it was not rape. She may have felt a lot of pressure, but either she consented or she did not.

Rape can have serious and deep effects. But being pressured into consenting? I'm not sure about this. Her strict upbringing would seem to play into things too, but still not to the point of having PTSD types of reactions and becoming unable to participate in sex with her husband.

I'm not refuting at all what you have experienced, just wondering if there isn't still more to the story. If she were sexually abused as a very young child, under about age 6 perhaps, she may not remember it but then the aggressive boyfriend's actions may be what she identifies as the trigger. It is common for CSA victims to be involved in abusive relationships.

In any case, she is responsible to make a strong effort to be a healthy spouse. If she is unwilling, you have zero obligation to stay. If she tries but is unable, you still have no obligation to stay considering this is due to something you were not informed of.

I know all too well about staying because the original cause was abuse. Anger, frustration, sorrow, and every other emotion will be experienced.

You are a good man to give this a try, but know that you cannot be her therapist and you cannot take on her burden for her. For many victims (I hate the term "Survivor") the effects are too deep for the marriage to make it. I know numerous female abuse/rape survivors who have divorced and then found a good second marriage.

You should do some research on Secondary Survivor. You'll find out you are, unfortunately, part of a very large club.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> I am generally not interested at all in sex. She is wanting things to happen, and she initiates, but I am not in the mood at all. I'm okay with taking care of myself, but that is about it.


If you are taking care of things yourself, you're still interested in sex and I expect there's some fantasy involved.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

Thor said:


> Both of these are correct, and at the same time they are irreconcilable.
> 
> My wife was sexually abused as a child. The effects still haunt her today at age 50+. She did not recognize her behavior as a teen as being highly influenced by the CSA, and she felt she was compartmentalizing the abuse in a way which made it a non-issue in her life. She never told me about it until after 28 years of marriage!
> 
> ...


Thor, these are very good questions, and I have been thinking about them today. I will try to answer you ASAP, but I need to think about a couple of these some more.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> If you are taking care of things yourself, you're still interested in sex and I expect there's some fantasy involved.


True. I'm just not thinking of anyone in particular nor am I even remotely interested in being with anyone else. If my W and I split, I want to be by myself.


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## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

What's the rest of your relationship like? Do you talk well together? Can you share your joys, triumphs, frustrations with her? Does she with you? Do you enjoy each other's company? Do you laugh together?


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

I know people say this all the time, but the rest of the relationship is great. Besides issues with intimacy and once in a while money, we typically don't argue. We have a pretty emotionally fulfilling relationship. We can and do talk about everything. She is my best friend and I am hers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

Update- We had a full blown 12 round ...er...discussion last night. I laid everything on the table, from how I felt her behavior had been selfish to me being weak to my anger at her making decisions on our sexual activity without any input from me. It was probably the hardest conversation we have had- certainly the strongest I have been. There were lots of tears, lots of apologizing, etc.. from her. 

When we were done she asked if I still wanted to be married, and I said not if we are going back to being dysfunctional., and I also told her I am struggling to trust her because she has not followed through with actions after saying she would do something to work on our intimacy on numerous occasions. It was incredibly difficult for her to hear these things, but I think she needed to know how I really felt. I flat out said, "I will leave if we go back to the way things were or if I continue to not be able to trust you. This relationship has been one-sided."

We really haven't talked today, and I think we will probably keep a little distance as we process what was said. I have scheduled an appt. with a counselor for myself, so I'm looking forward to that. It has been a challenging time.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

It sounds like you had a productive conversation. Difficult, but ultimately productive due to getting issues out in the open.

Always remember that you have the right to your feelings and your interpretations of your experiences. She will remember things differently and she will have a different view of the meanings of what happened. Don't let her try to tell you that you are wrong for feeling what you do, or that you are wrong about what happened in the past.

You may want to read "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by M Smith. It is a quick read and it may give you some good tools for future conversations. There is a lot more to the book than what the title implies, and it may come in handy.

Have you read much about the effects of rape or abuse? Your wife likely has some very different ideas about what sex is, and she likely has some deep emotional scars. I am familiar with child sex abuse but not much more than a glancing look at when the victim is post-adolescent, so I can't offer much definitive info. With younger victims they will have a strong sense of shame and guilt over what happened, and they will fear abandonment. Especially they fear being abandoned due to sexual issues because it, in a twisted way, confirms the basis of their shame. They also can equate the side effects to the events. That is, they cannot distinguish between the events and the after effects. They feel so much shame about the events, and then they attach that shame to the after effects which are still there many years later. 

So you have to be careful to not trigger that connection. For example she has difficulty with oral, and it is a legitimate topic for you to be unhappy about. But it should be discussed not as she is defective but rather as an injury which causes her great distress, so you want her to find the path to no longer feeling distress over these things.


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## PinkSalmon13 (Nov 7, 2013)

Thor said:


> Always remember that you have the right to your feelings and your interpretations of your experiences. She will remember things differently and she will have a different view of the meanings of what happened. Don't let her try to tell you that you are wrong for feeling what you do, or that you are wrong about what happened in the past.


This is key. :smthumbup:


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I haven't read the whole thread, just your OP and maybe a dozen responses.

Here's my advice:

*Let It GO!!!!! *

You built up resentment, that's on you. You need to deal with why you didn't force this issue earlier. You finally forced it, and meant it, and then she got her sh!t together.

Welcome to the club! One foot in, one foot out. Not going anywhere and not happy in the doorway. So make a decision but know this, your decision is on you, not her. She did what you asked once you finally really meant it! Yes she should have, could have and how nice if she would have... But it didn't happen that way. So Let It Go!

I have the exact same issues in my marriage and I went to se an attorney and we talked about splitting up and how we would do it and everything. THEN he decides to get his sh!t together. I'm kind of trapped and I don't believe the grass is greener. My choice was being alone or being unhappy. I decided being alone was better. He decided we could be happy. 

So my choice was accept his effort and work on reconciling or leave.

I accepted. I have a thread in private section that starts with me leaving and ends with things going much much better. In fact they're better now than I ever thought they could be. But he still slips and each time he slips I start looking at my suitcases. Not a healthy way to reconcile but that's on ME to fix and deal with.

Let It Go.

How do you let it go? You find all the areas in which you could have, should have and wouldn't it have been better if you would have. Then you say... "But it didn't work out that way. Now I do have what I want. Now I do have what I asked for. Now I have to let the past go!"

Your wife let her past go, you can do the same!

Let It Go!

BTW, your wife's experience with a religious upbringing, sexual repression, followed by an abusive BF who coerced her is just as damaging as any rape because she didn't have the skills to advocate for herself and didn't have the skills to help herself. She she was just as powerless as any rape victim and just as alone and vulnerable as any CSA. I don't like to get into comparing the horrors of one trauma over another.

Bottom line, her sexual experiences taught her bad things about intimacy and sex and she was traumatized as a result.

Once you decide to let it go, letting go is that much easier. You'll have good days and bad days. Like me, each back slide will send you packing. But if you work at making your marriage work, it will.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, just your OP and maybe a dozen responses.
> 
> Here's my advice:
> 
> ...


I very much would like to let it go, but there are two things making that very difficult. First off, we had a significant lapse as recently as August/September, so I'm having trouble believing things will stick this time. I honestly think you are right, but i need to trust her first.

Second issue, I'm trying to figure out how to forgive her and myself. I know I need to, I'm just not sure how.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

Thor said:


> It sounds like you had a productive conversation. Difficult, but ultimately productive due to getting issues out in the open.
> 
> Always remember that you have the right to your feelings and your interpretations of your experiences. She will remember things differently and she will have a different view of the meanings of what happened. Don't let her try to tell you that you are wrong for feeling what you do, or that you are wrong about what happened in the past.
> 
> ...


I have read quite a bit on rape and sexual abuse. My issue has been her lack of consistent effort has made this a huge problem for us as a couple. She knows this has/is negatively affected us, but until recently she has not sustained her effort. I was very understanding for years, but at some point the pain just wears on you and you want to get healthy again. 

As far as oral sex is concerned, it actually isn't a huge thing for me. Really it was the idea that it was completely off the table, and that the decision was made without any input from me.

I realize it is easier to not deal with things sometimes, but when that behavior is hurting you and your spouse, something needs to be done.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> I have read quite a bit on rape and sexual abuse. My issue has been her lack of consistent effort has made this a huge problem for us as a couple. She knows this has/is negatively affected us, but until recently she has not sustained her effort. I was very understanding for years, but at some point the pain just wears on you and you want to get healthy again.
> 
> As far as oral sex is concerned, it actually isn't a huge thing for me. Really it was the idea that it was completely off the table, and that the decision was made without any input from me.
> 
> I realize it is easier to not deal with things sometimes, but when that behavior is hurting you and your spouse, something needs to be done.


Double post


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't like to get into comparing the horrors of one trauma over another.


:iagree:


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> I have read quite a bit on rape and sexual abuse. My issue has been her lack of consistent effort has made this a huge problem for us as a couple. She knows this has/is negatively affected us, but until recently she has not sustained her effort. I was very understanding for years, but at some point the pain just wears on you and you want to get healthy again.
> 
> As far as oral sex is concerned, it actually isn't a huge thing for me. Really it was the idea that it was completely off the table, and that the decision was made without any input from me.
> 
> I realize it is easier to not deal with things sometimes, but when that behavior is hurting you and your spouse, something needs to be done.


You sound like you're solidly in the territory of being a Secondary Survivor. Those are classic comments I've seen posted many times.

There is a Perfect Storm when an abused woman matches up with a pathologically Nice Guy. Doc Glover who wrote the book No More Mr. Nice Guy says that we tend to mate with someone of similar level of dysfunction. I can look back and see how that is true for me. In our courtship things were fantastic. My fiance was very easily sexual, and I thought there was no way I'd be in a sexless marriage with her. We matched so perfectly in all the other areas, too. But then in the last few months before the wedding the sex stopped, and never came back in any meaningful way after the wedding.

By the end of the first year of marriage I was an emotional wreck, blaming myself for some unknown thing I must have done to turn her off. That was my pathological Nice Guy at work. A normal man would have pulled the plug on the marriage, not knowing what the underlying cause was but being sure that the marriage was not acceptable.

As Anon Pink says, some of this is indeed on you, but don't beat yourself up for it. You didn't know better back then, but now you do. The root cause of your issues is not important, though probably over time you'll see more and more Family Of Origin factors. You were unprepared by your parents or by society to understand or deal with the issues in your marriage. You didn't choose to be incapable.

Likewise, your wife didn't choose her dysfunctions or traumas. I think you can simultaneously give her credit for working on some difficult issues, but also have anger at her for doing things which are deeply hurtful to you. This is the nature of her being abused and you being a Secondary.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Thor said:


> You sound like you're solidly in the territory of being a Secondary Survivor. Those are classic comments I've seen posted many times.
> 
> There is a Perfect Storm when an abused woman matches up with a pathologically Nice Guy. Doc Glover who wrote the book No More Mr. Nice Guy says that we tend to mate with someone of similar level of dysfunction. I can look back and see how that is true for me. In our courtship things were fantastic. My fiance was very easily sexual, and I thought there was no way I'd be in a sexless marriage with her. We matched so perfectly in all the other areas, too. But then in the last few months before the wedding the sex stopped, and never came back in any meaningful way after the wedding.
> 
> ...


I can relate.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, just your OP and maybe a dozen responses.
> 
> Here's my advice:
> 
> ...


That's an interesting comment. They say, "be careful what you wish for...you may get it".

Sometimes when we get what we've been fighting for for so long it throws our whole equilibrium out of balance. Suddenly, we can't blame everything on this difficult position we've been in all this time. We have to start owning where we are in life.

I agree the OP either has to figure out a way to accept what's happened and be happy about the fact it's better now...or don't.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

Thor said:


> You sound like you're solidly in the territory of being a Secondary Survivor. Those are classic comments I've seen posted many times.
> 
> There is a Perfect Storm when an abused woman matches up with a pathologically Nice Guy. Doc Glover who wrote the book No More Mr. Nice Guy says that we tend to mate with someone of similar level of dysfunction. I can look back and see how that is true for me. In our courtship things were fantastic. My fiance was very easily sexual, and I thought there was no way I'd be in a sexless marriage with her. We matched so perfectly in all the other areas, too. But then in the last few months before the wedding the sex stopped, and never came back in any meaningful way after the wedding.
> 
> ...


Thor, I really appreciate your posts. Thank you very much for your insights.

I actually agree with just about everything you said except for the Nice Guy thing. My wife and friends describe me as an alpha male- their words. My wife describes me as kind but having an edge, so I'm not willing to just be supportive and go along with whatever my wife says.

I think the thing that made this situation particularly difficult is that I didn't understand abuse, so I gave her the benefit of the doubt when she said she was working on it. My W made just enough effort to make me feel like things were being worked on. When we spoke to counselors they indicated that recovery would take years, and that we needed to be patient. When I finally educated myself about abuse, I seriously considered leaving, but I was assured things were progressing- this is where I should have put my foot down. I was not willing to do whatever to appease my wife, like Nice Guys often do.

When I noticed a pattern happening, and realized that my needs we're not being respected... that is when I put my foot down. I wish I had done it sooner, when I first suspected, but I was told that more time was needed by a counselor. I trusted some counselors I probably shouldn't have. I'm angry about this because I feel like I was taken advantage of. (Angry at both my wife and the counselors.) My wife was struggling so much with her pain that it was better in her mind to behave this way then to try to solve the problem once and for all. 

As I said, I know I made mistakes and I need to forgive her as well as myself. I'm looking at how to do that.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

MaritimeGuy said:


> That's an interesting comment. They say, "be careful what you wish for...you may get it".
> 
> Sometimes when we get what we've been fighting for for so long it throws our whole equilibrium out of balance. Suddenly, we can't blame everything on this difficult position we've been in all this time. We have to start owning where we are in life.
> 
> I agree the OP either has to figure out a way to accept what's happened and be happy about the fact it's better now...or don't.


I actually think the issue is I feel like I can't trust her to maintain things as they are- which is great. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and for her to go back to her past behavior of "changing" for a while and then going back to her old behavior.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> I actually think the issue is I feel like I can't trust to maintain things as they are- which is great. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and for her to go back to her past behavior of "changing" for a while and then going back to her old behavior.


I have this tendency too. I do my best to squash it as soon as I recognize it.

Trust doesn't have to be earned, it can be given. Think about that.

What do you loose if you if you give your trust and it's broken? What exactly do you loose?

What do you gain if you give your trust and it's rewarded?

You are what is holding yourself back.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

To forgive someone, you simply decide to do it. The process can be simple or it can be complicated.

I think it helps to gain an understanding that those who hurt us, didn't set out to hurt. Whether by omission or commission, they erred in judgment as a result of their own faulty thinking. 

In your case, you wife needed to hide. She didn't want to face what she went through, it was too frightening. What if she faced it and realized the shame she carried really was her shame? What if she faced it and discovered she was a terrible person and that's why those things happened? What if she faced it and learned, she would never ever again be normal, that she was broken for all eternity and there was nothing anyone could do or say to make heir normal again. It's easier NOT to face it than it is to risk having your worst fears shoved in your face. So she hid, she covered up, she pretended, she put on a show and she made you let it drop for a while longer. Mission accomplished!

But now she has faced it, she has decided that loosing you is the greater fear she must face. The thought of not being your wife and you not being her husband is much more scary than having to deal with the potential of spending the rest of her life a messed up sexually dysfunctional person. A frigid backward broken woman is a lesser fear than not having you in her life.

This is the kind of understanding that helps you see things from her perspective. I'm not saying her hiding from getting help was right and it's okay. I'm saying that to understand why she hid, helps to forgive that she hid.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> To forgive someone, you simply decide to do it. The process can be simple or it can be complicated.
> 
> I think it helps to gain an understanding that those who hurt us, didn't set out to hurt. Whether by omission or commission, they erred in judgment as a result of their own faulty thinking.
> 
> ...


Wow! This provided me with a great perspective I had not previously had. Seriously! Thank you very much!


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