# Splitting bank accounts for an unusual reason?



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Some 30 years ago, the common wisdom for handling spending issues was:

* Create 3 bank accounts. Yours, mine and ours. "Our" account is for utility bills, mortgage, insurance, and all those other baseline bills that just gotta get paid. "Yours" is your money to spend as you wish, mine obviously the same. Pay no attention to who earns the money, but make sure appropriate amounts get into every account. 

The problem this was intended to solve was when couples argued over buying something expensive. She wanted it, he didn't, what to do? Well, with separate accounts, she can spend her money and she has to think about what she won't spend, in order to afford it.

But, maybe 5-10 years later, the advice was reversed. Someone had studied couples who followed this advice, and it turned out that it began an emotional ride toward making all decisions separately and doing everything separately and soon enough, they wondered why they were married.

============

Well, I have a different dilemma.

We have no spending or income problem. None at all. We're not wealthy, but we've been careful enough with spending all our lives that we're set for life, even if it's long and even if there are health issues.

But my wife seems totally possessed by the dollar - or in fear of it? She pores over entering receipts into the money software, and she pores over reports and she's frantic...somehow, even though we've had several financial advisors tell us "you could have quit working 10 years ago", she's in constant fear that we missed something and we will suddenly go broke. She fears this about everything - can't go for a walk in the forest because there might be bad guys out there with guns.

Where it gets me involved is that she comes to me and says she's in fear that we're spending too much, which is her way of telling me to stop spending. I don't spend much. After assuring her that I understand how scary money can be, and if we are spending too much, it's good that she's got this fear - I do the emotional support stuff. Then I ask her how she knows we're spending too much and she changes the subject. She won't show me bank statements, she won't list for me what the spending target was supposed to be (without a target, how do you know you missed it) she won't show me the software. I have access to all the accounts and software, but what I don't know is what she claimed the spending limits should have been. She seems utterly in despair unless she sees evidence that I spend 10-15 hours once a month looking at the software - but then when I say it looks fine to me, she says "You missed something". She has often said "when I was single, this never happened." and other stuff that seems to say that she believes I'm the money problem.

Here's my thought...I know there are downsides. And maybe my hoped-for benefit won't work. But I want to hear opinions/alternatives, etc.

I actually propose splitting the bank accounts. Our funding is from various investment accounts...periodically she transfers money from them into our primary savings and from there trickles it into checking about monthly.

I would propose two checking accounts - hers and mine. I would propose that she distribute the funds to each account, with me only receiving 20% of the amount that she puts into her own account.

I would tell her "now you don't have to worry about my spending. I can only spend from my account, and if I hit the limit, I'm done."

What I hope to get out of this is that the insistence that I spend large amounts of time studying all this - and her continued claims that I'm the problem - would then end. Since my behavior has now been "controlled" by how much she puts into my account, there's no longer a reason to believe I'm causing the problem.

FWIW, I have looked at spending versus time...our advisor has actually given us a typical annual spend recommendation...we can go up or down 20% and he says no problem. Right now we're 5% above, and all the added spending is her spending. I don't want to pin blame, but if she can clearly see that she's the one with variable spending then maybe she can see that she doesn't need my permission/consultation or anything, to resolve the problem.


And FWIW, we've been in counseling a year, and the very first topic was "wife's anxiety about money"...brought up by the wife. There seemed to be some progress but then the wife said "I don't want to go any more". We go once every few months and that's about that. I see the counselor quite a bit more often, working on ADHD related stuff mainly, but also asking for and receiving coaching on ways to be more supportive of my wife.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I might be completely off the mark, but have you run a credit report to make sure she doesn't have any secret accounts or debts that you don't know about?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Bananapeel said:


> I might be completely off the mark, but have you run a credit report to make sure she doesn't have any secret accounts or debts that you don't know about?


I was about to ask the same thing. Her anxiety may be driven by spending/debt she knows about but you aren't aware of.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

My W and I always had 3 accounts. We each had our own bank account and we had a joint account. Each month we would figure out what our household expenses were, and whatever that was we would both pay in to the joint account to cover (on a pro rata basis). What was left in my account or hers was ours to spend as we please without any sort of restrictions. I couldn't imagine doing things any other way TBH, always worked for us and we never fought over money.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

This anxiety about money could be explained by debt you don't know about, but I'd have thought that would come up somewhere between counseling, the financial advisers, and going over the budget when you talk privately. So, hmmmm.

You also mention she fears going out into the woods for walks or whatever because there may be bad guys.

Has she seen a professional to be evaluated for mental illness related to anxiety and/or paranoia? If she can't point to the money and say "There! That's where the spending is off!" because there is actually no problem and she has other fears and anxieties that are also groundless, I'd start wondering if she is at the beginning stages of mental illness or if a previously unnoticed and undiagnosed mental illness is worsening.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

If you decide to each get an account for your extra spending, I'd strongly suggest that even if you don't spend as much as she does, make sure she puts the same amount of money into each of your accounts every month. You are entitled to the same amount as she gets, even if you choose not to spend it.

You might have an urge to buy something expensive that she doesn't approve of, and if you have your own cash, you will be able to do it. On the other hand, if you don't spend the money, you can show her your bank account balance at any time, to show her that you are not a big spender. 

Her makeup, hair, nails, clothes, hobbies, cigarettes, special after dinner drinks, expensive annuals for the garden that you don't think are a necessity, etc. should all come out of her account. Your haircuts, clothes, hobbies, cigars, motorcycle clothes, sports game tickets, favorite cognac, etc. should come out of your account.

Imagine if in 2 years she is telling you that you are a big spender and you show her your account balance and ask to see hers, with her knowing that both of you started out with the same amount of $.

It will take a few conversations for the two of you to decide and agree on what is not "essential spending" and on how much each of you should get each month. She will probably get upset if you tell her that if she spends $250 on her hair and nails that you should also get $250 to spend the way you want.

Since you have an ample budget, give each other a generous amount, but you should both get the same amount.

Since she is pushing you, and accusing you, this is a necessity, and is fair.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Has anything happened in your lives that may have caused her to feel unsafe? Infidelity, illness, a death in the family, the crazy things going on in the country, etc. can make a person feel unsafe in general. Does she have any friends or hobbies to take her mind off things? How long has she been fearful?


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Bananapeel said:


> I might be completely off the mark, but have you run a credit report to make sure she doesn't have any secret accounts or debts that you don't know about?


I don't have to. She's so - connected? - with money that SHE runs them monthly - paying for it...and shows them to me with tips on how to get the credit score higher. Why would people who don't use credit need it higher?

When CostCo switched from AMEX to MasterCard recently, she pored over articles, made phone calls, spent most of two days making SURE this would not ding our credit scores. Our numbers are almost off the charts, both over 850.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> If you decide to each get an account for your extra spending, I'd strongly suggest that even if you don't spend as much as she does, make sure she puts the same amount of money into each of your accounts every month. You are entitled to the same amount as she gets, even if you choose not to spend it.


See, I prefer to do the pro rata approach. If I make more then my W, it means I contribute more to the budget / house. Of course, it will also depend on how much more one makes over another, but I don't think it necessary for each to get the same exact amount. Of course, everyone will differ.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

She needs Zoloft. And it is very cheap. She has irrational fear, if your financial statements are accurate. It happens, especially as people get older. She has a fear of running out of money and being homeless. That is what needs to be addressed.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> See, I prefer to do the pro rata approach. If I make more then my W, it means I contribute more to the budget / house. Of course, it will also depend on how much more one makes over another, but I don't think it necessary for each to get the same exact amount. Of course, everyone will differ.


In our case I am a SAH homeschool mom. I do not make a salary, but I work my tail off taking care of our home, training our children, providing their education, social, and work activities. Should I get nothing? We have decided we should both get the same amount of money to spend (or save) any way we want.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> In our case I am a SAH homeschool mom. I do not make a salary, but I work my tail off taking care of our home, training our children, providing their education, social, and work activities. Should I get nothing? We have decided we should both get the same amount of money to spend (or save) any way we want.


No, reread what I posted. I said it depended on how much one makes over the other. The rationale being, once the amount made by one gets to be significantly over the other, then other arrangements should be made. However, when my W was working the pro rata method worked perfect for us.

My W is now a SAHM, she simply has an open checkbook


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> If you decide to each get an account for your extra spending, I'd strongly suggest that even if you don't spend as much as she does, make sure she puts the same amount of money into each of your accounts every month. You are entitled to the same amount as she gets, even if you choose not to spend it.


Whatever I do, it has to work for her. She has some figure in mind of what she thinks is a reasonable spending cap. Our actual annual spend is about $30,000...seriously that is everything except health insurance. If I were to propose, say, $20k for me and $20k for her, she'd probably think it's a spending increase and go ballistic. But, she DOES spend more - not on anything extravagant. She likes to do the grocery shopping, she likes to be the one paying the utility bills, insurance, and she prefers to be the one engaging with anything dog-related. That's why she needs more...she prefers to be in charge of anything "us". So, my proposal would intend to keep the sum of the two accounts the same, but bias it toward her to recognize this "shared" stuff she would cover.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> You might have an urge to buy something expensive that she doesn't approve of, and if you have your own cash, you will be able to do it. On the other hand, if you don't spend the money, you can show her your bank account balance at any time, to show her that you are not a big spender.


I haven't had such an urge in 20 years, so I don't see value in planning for it. My idea is to NEVER show her my bank account - not because I don't want her to see it, but because I'm sick and tired of spending this much time on MONEY. If she knows exactly how much she puts in my account, then she knows exactly the max I might be spending and she has no need to drain my time account for this. She can continue to burn more hours every week on money, but I want to be released from the burden so I can go work on projects and building the business.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Her makeup, hair, nails, clothes, hobbies, cigarettes, special after dinner drinks, expensive annuals for the garden that you don't think are a necessity, etc. should all come out of her account.


We are simple folk. Her quarterly haircuts are $15. She owns no cosmetics, trims her nails with no polish, doesn't drink or smoke (drinks only water), selects plants by taking cuttings from indigenous plants in public areas, wears t-shirts and jeans. Seriously, there are no luxuries - we spend so little that money really shouldn't even be a topic of conversation.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Your haircuts, clothes, hobbies, cigars, motorcycle clothes, sports game tickets, favorite cognac, etc. should come out of your account.


I'm as simple as she is except that I do buy tools for projects. My haircuts are more often then hers and $8...she claims to like buying clothes for me, so I'd include that amount in her account...jeans and t-shirts and husky canvas stuff because we have land and I'm the one who takes the tools into the brambles and slashes them and occasionally gets into poison oak. I have one fun car and that's adequate, and it is new enough that it won't need replacing until I'm 80. I have never liked spectator anything so I don't do game tickets or concert tickets. I am in production, however, so I may be found at stadiums and concert venues, but I'm either on stage or operating the technical gear. However, I do enjoy beer, so that's my one regular luxury. Generally, the most fun in life, in my view, is being active outdoors. I love running.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Imagine if in 2 years she is telling you that you are a big spender and you show her your account balance and ask to see hers, with her knowing that both of you started out with the same amount of $.


Even better, if she tells me I'm a big spender, just ask her to look into her own account and tell me how much she has given me to spend.

I think it's even better for me to start with only 20% of what she starts with. She won't even SEE my stuff, if she thinks there's a spending problem, it's showing up in HER account, which she can handle without expecting me to put 10-15 hours into HER account this week.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> It will take a few conversations for the two of you to decide and agree on what is not "essential spending" and on how much each of you should get each month.


Actually, the few times she's been able to keep herself in the conversation long enough for it to reach a conclusion, she has agreed that my spending is ALL "necessities", because mostly my spending is for tools, fuel, supplies, for house repairs, agreed-upon improvements to the acreage, a recent well pump repair, etc. Every time we've actually noted a bump in spending, it's always been in stuff she buys. So, I"m seeing this as a way for me to totally back out of the discussion.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> She will probably get upset if you tell her that if she spends $250 on her hair and nails that you should also get $250 to spend the way you want.


Because that would be the opposite of trying to build a relatoinship. Claiming that "you spend X on yourself therefore I should too" is not a collaborative relationship, it's a competition. A sure start to divorce.

If there are overages, what I've seen are things like this: someone told her she should be doing this or that alternative treatment on the dog to improve the dog's coat and she just does it without thinking about how much it costs to go to a naturopathic vet for $110 a visit, weekly. Or when she reads some article saying humans NEED this or that supplement, so she just gets a bunch of it without realizing it's just calcium and magnesium, which she already takes.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Since you have an ample budget, give each other a generous amount, but you should both get the same amount.


As I said, this HAS to work for her, and an "ample" budget won't work for her. It has to be clear that my purpose is not to increase spending, but to give her MORE control - by giving me what will appear to be very little money, although it will, in fact, be more than I typically spend.




IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Since she is pushing you, and accusing you, this is a necessity, and is fair.


What she's pushing me to do is be more obsessive about money and tracking it than - honestly - anybody else does. Seriously, when we had our first visit to a marriage counselor and she told the counselor all the stuff she does to track spending, the counselor appeared in shock. "In 30 years of counseling, focusing on marital problems, I have never heard of anybody putting that much time and effort into tracking pennies" and my wife looked proud of herself.

My take on money since being young is to be frugal, have fun, and if I can be frugal most of my life, then I will reach a point where I never have to worry about money again - no tracking, just reconcile the checkbook monthly, no worries.

I want to get there.

I see this as maybe a way to get there. The wife can continue to be fearful and she can do anything she wants about it, but it's not my burden any more.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> This anxiety about money could be explained by debt you don't know about, but I'd have thought that would come up somewhere between counseling, the financial advisers, and going over the budget when you talk privately. So, hmmmm.
> 
> You also mention she fears going out into the woods for walks or whatever because there may be bad guys.
> 
> Has she seen a professional to be evaluated for mental illness related to anxiety and/or paranoia? If she can't point to the money and say "There! That's where the spending is off!" because there is actually no problem and she has other fears and anxieties that are also groundless, I'd start wondering if she is at the beginning stages of mental illness or if a previously unnoticed and undiagnosed mental illness is worsening.


Our counselor, in the private sessions with me, has advised me to check into how to get along with people with unusually high fears. It's also known as "catastrophizing". Fear-based people actually come across as very nice, because they carefully choose words to avoid upsetting people, and they never want to rock the boat. So, she's actually very sweet.

However, the level of fear she has seems to hinder any actual "living" because she can't go anywhere, etc. She claims she's happy that I'm in a band, but in the years I've been in this band, she has NEVER come to a performance! Wants me to record them so she can hear them later.

I brought up the subject with her once and said I wonder if it's possible to consider being less fearful and she claimed it's what's kept her alive and the world would be much better if more people were like her instead of being so goal-focused all the time.

The counselor attempted to address the issue, and my wife refused to see the counselor again for months....so it's not a topic she's willing to consider.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Who makes/made most of the money?


Me.

Before we met, she'd had a number of minimum wage jobs - we were both 40. She had savings, an impressive amount considering her low income.

My world was astronomical to her..not my lifestyle, I was as simple as her, but when she got exposed to my salary and level of investments, she struggled to grasp it. Mind you, I'm no Warren Buffet, just an ordinary high-tech flunkie who avoided burning all the money on BMWs and gaming computers. But to her, it was huge.

Along the way, I managed my 401ks, doing various techniques to earn a lot higher than market returns...at some point, she asked and I told her what I did and she reacted in sheer terror that I would "lose it all". I pointed out that the market had never gone to zero overnight, in fact it's never gone down more than 20% overnight, so there's no risk of losing it all and was surprised that this didn't satisfy her.

But, since these were not her accounts and she could not access them, I continued to multiply them.

Sometime last year, she looked at her accounts and noted that the balances were about the same as 15 years ago, following her philosophy of buy and hold. Then she looked at my accounts. 

It was a major revelation to me that she said "I have to admit, you did well, and I know you've have happily advised me, and based on what you've said, I know that you had controls in place to avoid a big loss. But my heart would be torn to bits thinking there was even a risk of losing 20%". I get that - it's possible to know what the right thing is but be emotionally unable.

So, does some of her fear come from knowing that the bulk of the money is mine and somehow she fears I want to control it? That's another part of why I eagerly allowed her to take over the family financials, and also why I'd encourage her to keep most of the money as it flows in.

Best I know, she has no childhood tragedy, no physical punishment, the family was never homeless or at risk, the kids went to expensive private school, and so on. She's never been in a car accident until very recently, never been held up at gunpoint, etc. So, as far as I can tell, this is just a belief, not grounded in any experience.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

DustyDog said:


> Our counselor, in the private sessions with me, has advised me to check into how to get along with people with unusually high fears. It's also known as "catastrophizing". Fear-based people actually come across as very nice, because they carefully choose words to avoid upsetting people, and they never want to rock the boat. So, she's actually very sweet.
> 
> However, the level of fear she has seems to hinder any actual "living" because she can't go anywhere, etc. She claims she's happy that I'm in a band, but in the years I've been in this band, she has NEVER come to a performance! Wants me to record them so she can hear them later.
> 
> ...


I think the problem is your wife, not how the money is handled or how many bank accounts you have. You can divide up the money into his/hers/ours accounts and she will still be fearful. 

You said she thinks these fears keep her alive, she is afraid to go out and do things, she is afraid of being poor and obsesses about money when there is no reason to worry. Added up, it sounds like she really does need to see a psychiatrist. 

Can you make her go? No. Can you encourage her to go? Yes, but it may not do much good. Can you tell her that you are willing to end the marriage if she doesn't seek help? Yes, but is that a hill you're willing to die on? Because if you say it, you have to mean it.

Just as an aside, be aware that these kinds of issues tend to worsen with age. It is possible she will become more and more fearful as time passes.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Dusty, how much of what you have was yours before you got married? If you've kept it segregated in only your name, it is yours alone, not marital property. I strongly suggest you do not mix it into marital property in the future. You may be tempted to do so in order to calm her down, but as someone said above the problem isn't the money (nor is it the numbers on the screen), the problem is your wife's irrational fear.

I think you should see a therapist or counselor for guidance on how to deal with your wife. Perhaps your marriage counselor is the right person because he/she already knows both of you. On the other hand, they are not your individual counselor and won't keep secrets from your wife. I think a different counselor is probably your best bet, someone who deals with anxiety disorders.

The reason to do this is that our gut feel may not be correct in how to handle your wife. Some professional guidance may be better.

Having said that, my take is you should establish boundaries with her. No, you're not going to spend 15 hours per month reviewing finances. Period. She can do so if she wants, but you are not going to. Second boundary is that you are not going to let her hound you about spending. There is an agreed upon spending limit, which you are already within. End of discussion. If she wants to change the spending limit, then that is a fair topic to bring up and discuss. But as long as you are within the agreed upon limits there is not going to be discussion about "spending problems".

Setting up separate accounts might seem to be the answer but I bet it makes things wrong. She'll get ever more anxious because things will be less visible and less under her control. Even though you would be limited to small amounts of money, the problem is not the money it is her anxiety.

I also think you need to discuss with her about seeking evaluation and possibly meds. This is another area where a qualified Psychologist can be of great help in guiding you.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

We have separate bank accounts and checking accounts. If it weren't for that we'd be broke. She spends until there is no more money to spend. I had to take the bull by the horns and make my own account where I began depositing all my checks and stop all of our joint credit cards. She drained our joint accounts dry in a few weeks and was pissed. I didn't care, all of the sudden our credit history was fixed and we were actually saving money for the first time. I am very upset that I can never count on her to do her share financially but at least this way we can survive financially and her spending can be controlled somewhat to all that she makes. 

It's funny I told her before we were married that I would never be able to handle all the expenses by myself. I guess that didn't matter at all to her, that all a bunch of bull****.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

DustyDog said:


> Me.
> way, I managed my 401ks, doing various techniques to earn a lot higher than market returns...at some point, she asked and I told her what I did and she reacted in sheer terror that I would "lose it all". I pointed out that the market had never gone to zero overnight, in fact it's never gone down more than 20% overnight, so there's no risk of losing it all and was surprised that this didn't satisfy her.
> 
> But, since these were not her accounts and she could not access them, I continued to multiply them.
> ...


I think she feels like she has no control over your money. Which is why she has anxiety. She can't do anything with your investment and as such she feels like things are not adding up because of the lack of control. So, she has to watch everything carefully incase something happens, she can catch the "disaster" quickly before it gets out of hand. 

Or, if she grew up poor and is worried about going back to that?

Also, I have to a ask, when is the last time you saw a credit report on yourself and her?

My H has a fear of losing it all. That's why he asked me not to tell him what I am doing because he is worried that I am going to lose all of our money. He is risk adverse. He likes his money in the bank earning .2% and I like to trade like a mad woman. But I am not as crazy as he thinks. I know my limits and I work with that. Because I don't want to lose everything. 

Go visit a financial planner and maybe you should stop showing her your investment moves, so she feels more comforted. Just we are doing well honey.

Also, find out if she has any debts outstanding that you don't know about. And keep track of her spending habits. Maybe she needs to speak to a therapist to figure out why this is bothering her so much.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I really didn't read everything. I just wanted you to think carefully about your proposal. 
If you are driving with a crazy person, and they keep asking you if you made a wrong turn, even though you know you are going in the right direction, Do you, out of sheer frustration, stop the car and let them drive? (sadly, I've done exactly that) 

I would propose that you give her proof of stability in the form of no debt and safe money for a reasonable lifestyle for your expected life. I'm really not sure that would calm her fears, but I cant think of another reassurance that you haven't already given. Worry is her hobby.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Do you love her? She sounds crazy and would make me want to kill myself. I'd divorce her, but that's me. I don't put up with B.S. anymore, life is too short! 

Are you alpha or beta? Does she run the house?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

" Then I ask her how she knows we're spending too much and *she changes the subject. She won't show me bank statements, she won't list for me what the spending target was supposed to be (without a target, how do you know you missed it) she won't show me the software.* I have access to all the accounts and software, but what I don't know is what she claimed the spending limits should have been. She seems utterly in despair unless she sees evidence that I spend 10-15 hours once a month looking at the software - but then when I say it looks fine to me, she says "You missed something"."

This is the crux of the problem. She has a generalized fear that she can't pinpoint. You can't solve a problem couched in generalities. You need specifics. You need to insist on those bank statements. 

My guess is she is not that savvy with finances and fears she has made an error. She wants you to fix it without confessing. You can't do anything until you get up to speed with the finances. It's as if the two of you will be reduced to eating cat food and living under an over-pass. Maybe it's time you take control of the finances. What she is doing is emotionally abusive.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> See, I prefer to do the pro rata approach. If I make more then my W, it means I contribute more to the budget / house. Of course, it will also depend on how much more one makes over another, but I don't think it necessary for each to get the same exact amount. Of course, everyone will differ.


If you're working and making $200,000 / year, she's a SAHM and works part-time making $20,000 / year and your house hold expenses add up to 90% of your combined income:

You get $20,000 a year to spend and she gets $2,000?

That doesn't sound right.

My wife and I have had a joint account since the day we got married. If either of us wants to makes a significant purchase, we talk it over together.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Has anything happened in your lives that may have caused her to feel unsafe? Infidelity, illness, a death in the family, the crazy things going on in the country, etc. can make a person feel unsafe in general. Does she have any friends or hobbies to take her mind off things? How long has she been fearful?


Great question and one I've pondered and has come up in counseling. 

In the marriage, no infidelity of any kind. In fact, we've weathered some storms amazingly well. The dot-comm bust in 2000 while we were living right in the middle of it cut our income back by 70%, yet we kept up mortgage payments and maintained a maximum contribution to 401k plans. My employer was slashing divisions and jobs, and I became very fleet-footed in switching from department to department as I could see which businesses were going to be kept. I stayed there while they reduced from 30,000 headcount to 2500. This was done partly so that she could finish a college degree. Once she was done with the degree, with her agreement I used my connections to those who'd been laid off to find a growing tech company, which moved us out of California, something we both wanted. There are a few other survival stories, but at no time had we been late on a bill, etc and never had debt except for a mortgage.

Neither of us has had serious health issues. No deaths in the family, no drug peddling, DUIs, none of that, at least since our marriage.

She lost her dad in her teen years, which was a trauma for the whole family, of course, but we didn't meet until 25 or so years later.

She has only a few friends...she tends only to get close to people who have similar strong fears. Some are left-leaning and certain that the corporations are trying to kill us, and some are right-leaning, certain that the government is trying to smother us, and others are none of the above and certain that the entire world is out to get them.

She doesn't really have hobbies, unless you count dog rescue...she seems to "need" there to be something around whose entire life depends on her, so we always have a few sickly puppies that need constant care. 

She is convinced 99% of food is bad for you, so she insists on doing all the grocery shopping and cooking, which is utterly simple in our household, and also does the dishes and laundry due to concerns over sanitation. I do all the other housework, which I'm pleased to do. We have never argued about housework.

Now that I'm hearing her express things to a counselor, I think she's made all her decisions from a fear-based perspective her entire life. She has a younger sister to whom she had to play Mom after Dad died, and that sister is the same, or maybe stronger. But the other 4 siblings are all bolder and apparently not fear-driven.

So, I don't see a genuine event in life that should induce the fear, but I suppose it could be the loss of Dad all those years back. And yes, it seems to have gotten stronger with time.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> The reason I asked is (I'm in the minority), it's mostly YOUR money.
> 
> That you lovingly share with her is wonderful.
> 
> ...


I disagree on many of your points. When you get married, that is exactly an agreement to mingle everything - it's even in the law. Marital money is marital money. Matters not whose name is on it.

In 43 states, including where we live, if you get divorced, the state almost demands that you split "marital property" 50/50. You can claim that you had X when going in and she had Y and you both get that back, but whatever growth happened during the marriage, you split 50/50.

Her family of origin had exactly the level of social status as I did - lower middle class. Her income went down when she joined the workforce herself, and she never saw a reason to ask for raises or add skills, so in 20 years, she didn't increase earnings much. It just didn't occur to her. I think she didn't realize how much less she earned due to lack of continued learning.

Yes, "we" are doing fine. And it doesn't bother me that she's bothered - this is about me regaining control over my time. I have no fears about her controlling the money - she certainly isn't going to be a Big Spender, ever...and I'll be checking balances every quarter anyway...I do our taxes, so I have to.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> I think the problem is your wife, not how the money is handled or how many bank accounts you have. You can divide up the money into his/hers/ours accounts and she will still be fearful.


And I think that's OK. I'm not trying to reduce her fears - I'm trying to remove myself from having to spend time dealing with the money. Her emotions are her emotions. Mine are mine.



MJJEAN said:


> You said she thinks these fears keep her alive, she is afraid to go out and do things, she is afraid of being poor and obsesses about money when there is no reason to worry. Added up, it sounds like she really does need to see a psychiatrist.
> 
> Can you make her go? No. Can you encourage her to go? Yes, but it may not do much good. Can you tell her that you are willing to end the marriage if she doesn't seek help? Yes, but is that a hill you're willing to die on? Because if you say it, you have to mean it.
> 
> Just as an aside, be aware that these kinds of issues tend to worsen with age. It is possible she will become more and more fearful as time passes.


As I mentioned, we see a counselor, and I think the counselor sees all that, and is attempting to carefully touch on the subject but if the counselor moves too fast, my wife is likely to never return to the sessions.

I understand that I have the option to split us up. I'm giving it 6-10 more months. I will be satisfied if she acknowledges that she has the fear, not me, therefore it's inappropriate to ask me to fix her feelings. For details on this concept, do a web search on the phrase "Your business, my business and God's business", it's a concept in psychology that separates who has what feelings and what role you have in creating/changing things in hopes that you'll change someone's feelings.

I have no delusions that her fears will subside. So, my objective is only that she recognizes that nothing I can do will ease her fears, therefore it's unreasonable to ask me to spend this amount of time attempting to do so, and she can release me from this expectation without feeling cast adrift...and hopefully she'll feel empowered to pursue her own solutions.

Fear-based people are exactly the people who want to control everything because they fear what happens if control is lost...so, I have no doubt that if I cut her off from controlling the funds, it'll go badly. 

Someone mentioned control of the 401k stuff...401k accounts, by definition are personal. It is extremely rare that a 401k custodian will allow your spouse access, unless you've been declared physically or mentally incapable. 

I've actually ceased my active management of the 401k anyway...it's achieved what it needed and I don't want to keep doing that. It was never enjoyable, it was just something I figured I should do during the wealth-building years.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Sounds more like a mental health issue than anything else.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> If you're working and making $200,000 / year, she's a SAHM and works part-time making $20,000 / year and your house hold expenses add up to 90% of your combined income:
> 
> You get $20,000 a year to spend and she gets $2,000?
> 
> ...


I clarified in my post below. Also, in my original post, that is why I mentioned it would depend on how much one person made over the other, being that if there was a huge disparity then this would not work.

For a while my W and I were making close to the same, and even when I started to move past her it wasn't big jumps initially, so each of us contributing our share worked perfect. To date we have never had a fight over money. I just don't like the idea of having everyone's money dumped into one joint account.




EllisRedding said:


> No, reread what I posted. I said it depended on how much one makes over the other. The rationale being, once the amount made by one gets to be significantly over the other, then other arrangements should be made. However, when my W was working the pro rata method worked perfect for us.
> 
> My W is now a SAHM, she simply has an open checkbook


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

I get what you are saying. Her fear is her problem, there is nothing you can really do but be supportive without getting sucked in. I think you are on the right path. And your strategy is worth a try. Either it will work or it won't....but it's not going to be devastating for the family either way, so it won't hurt to try. 

My H is OCD. We talk about it. Sometimes he apologizes for being a pain in the neck, but even then I just tell him "it's ok. I understand. It's the way you are." He recognizes it and sometimes deals with things better than other times. It's never awful, but the bottom line is that it's his problem. 

For example: He makes the bed every day. When we first got together I told him, good cuz I really really don't care about making the bed all tidy. Over time I do appreciate the tidy bed tho. But he thinks I can't make a bed, that I'll never get it right... I just tell him "So?"  It's not a problem to me. Handle it or not...I don't care. He gets it....but it doesn't stop him from fussing over it. He even teases me about sleeping all wild and crazy and messing up the bed. I call him the bed Nazi. Sounds silly, but at least we can talk about it, and laugh about it.

Similar to what you already said... we like to "own our own sh*t". 

Now that I think about it, my H is kind of OCD about the money too. He is very good about handling it, and keeping me apprised of where we stand. We share a few accounts, and have our own.... we also have access to each others accounts, tho we only use it to move money for bills. But he has to stay on top of it and it works for us. Not because I don't want to know....but because I do know, and don't have to do all that he does. He keeps 3 running calculators, spreadsheet/accounts book, etc.... I'd think overkill, but his systems work for him.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Didn't you say that this "anxiety" didn't start until she found out how well you did financially? Be really careful.


I probably left out details that led to that conclusion.

I had developed a sense that she had anxiety about a lot of stuff...I had always been surprised at how much insurance she wanted...it seemed she could not say "no" to anybody offering insurance for any reason. For a while there, the percentage of our budget that went to insurance was quite high. 

Also, I have always had a side business, reporting on Schedule C. She knew this, in fact it's how we met. But every year when doing taxes, or at times when I got a contract and was executing it, she seemed to come up with myriad ways that my clients could rip me off. "Did you run a credit check on them?" "How do you know they won't claim the work is unacceptable and use that as a reason to never pay you?". Mind you, contracts that I had were $500 to $2000 each, and given $200/hour rates, I have never felt it useful to spend any of those hours trying to detect if my clients were crooks. It was technical work, most folks smart enough to even list their requirements have spent a fair bit of time in tech.

So, I already saw stuff that I thought was fairly deep into "the world is a scary place" land. I asked her about it once and she said, "You must be mistaken. I think the world is fine, I have no fear of anything." That didn't change my opinion, except that I decided it was just one area where we viewed behaviors differently, and those will always exist.



notmyrealname4 said:


> But why shouldn't you control your own money? That you earned and had starting investing long before you knew her.


First, it's not legally mine once we're married. Second, I do not place a value on control. Fear is what drives people to feel the need to control - anything - and I have little fear. I'm totally OK with someone else controlling my money as long as I have the ability to check in on it to make sure that grossly bad decisions aren't being made.

Frankly, the moment you've bought a share of stock or a mutual fund, you have handed control of your money to the company or fund manager, so our entire lives are spent letting others control our money.



notmyrealname4 said:


> Again, it's wonderful that you share your money with her, and that you are generous, and you allowed her to "take over the family financials". You've been very reasonable and compromising.


Actually, if you read any books on marriage, the general advice is that not being willing to share this responsibility will lead to a lack of trust, a major deal-breaker in marriage. If I didn't feel I could trust her making financial decisions, I'd have not married her.



notmyrealname4 said:


> I get a sense that your wife wants to know exactly how much you have, and have w-a-a-a-y more say over what you do with it.


"I" don't have anything, by law. She does know exactly how much "we" have and I wouldn't want it any other way. Now, this is a gradual thing - I would not have shared this info during the dating days, and never did. It was when we were getting serious about tying the knot that I gradually let her know approximately various levels and she seemed to think this was just plain normal for a guy working in high tech. I wasn't the first technical guy she'd dated, after all. The sudden shock I saw on her was when she saw the figures in print - even though by then I'd told her the figures.

She has acknowledged that I seem to be better with investing choices and specifically requests that I manage that and don't tell her what I"m doing becase it's scary. We're on the same page there.



notmyrealname4 said:


> But, you have nothing to prove; you've shown excellent judgment in handling your money. You've had far more success with investing than she has with her fear and timidity.


In my entire life, I have never felt it necessary to prove anything to anybody, so the concept is kind of lost on me.

All I want is for her to spend the time it takes to assuage whatever her anxiety is on her own and not expect me to put in the hours she thinks it should take. That's all.



notmyrealname4 said:


> I hate to see you living with her constantly harassing you with her fear and anxiety; over something that you haven't done wrong, basically.


I also don't have the values of "right" and "wrong" in my lexicon, except for minor details. 4+4=9 is "wrong", but human behavior is far too complex to lend itself to the black and white labels of "right" or "wrong". Real life is lived in the rainbow colors in between.

Reasonable behavior in marriage acknowledges the other person's feelings, even if you think they come from a lack of reason. However, I believe it's also reasonable to set some boundaries on how much time you spend supporting those emotions versus asking the person to take responsibility for their own emotions.

And that's all I'm trying to do here.



notmyrealname4 said:


> Don't give up control of what's yours. I wonder if she will just keep at it and keep at it until she has complete control and access to all the money. Not unusual for miserly people. And it *will* get much worse as she gets older.


She expresses no desire to control the investments. She hasn't explicitly said she wants to control what I spend, either. It's more of an implied belief that if spending is "too high" (measured against a spending limit that she has yet to tell me what it is) it must be due to me spending more than whatever limit she never gave me.

By establishing a separate account, which she can fill with however much $ she wants, she will be essentially required to create that spending limit for me. If it's too low, I am comfortable engaging in that discussion. And if she pushes back, that's when I'll say no, I'm not going to accept that. But we're not there at this time.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> I clarified in my post below. Also, in my original post, that is why I mentioned it would depend on how much one person made over the other, being that if there was a huge disparity then this would not work.


I think the worst way to determine who gets what is based on earning.

Rather, I think it should be based on the agreed-upon set of responsibilities. One of the two of you will be asked to write the mortgage check, pay the utility bills, and so on. That person's account gets that money. If one of you dislikes shopping (that would be me), then there's no need for the funds to be equalized. You do not want to distribute the entire paychecks anyway, you're both going to be holding back $16,000 each for the 401k if you want a fighting chance to retire at a reasonable age, and that amount doesn't depend on income, it's just the legal max.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

@DustyDog, have you tried actually saying "Wife, you need to cope with your fearfulness and I ask that you please stop XYZ."


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

DustyDog said:


> I think the worst way to determine who gets what is based on earning.
> 
> Rather, I think it should be based on the agreed-upon set of responsibilities. One of the two of you will be asked to write the mortgage check, pay the utility bills, and so on. That person's account gets that money. If one of you dislikes shopping (that would be me), then there's no need for the funds to be equalized. You do not want to distribute the entire paychecks anyway, you're both going to be holding back $16,000 each for the 401k if you want a fighting chance to retire at a reasonable age, and that amount doesn't depend on income, it's just the legal max.


Well, there really isn't a right or wrong way. All that is important is that a) both people in the relationship agree to whatever method is determined and b) both people actually stick to it. The way my W and I did it, it was easy to manage, crystal clear for both of us so each month we knew exactly what we had to allocate towards the house and what we had left for ourselves (and that was with both of us maxing out our 401ks each year).


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> @DustyDog, have you tried actually saying "Wife, you need to cope with your fearfulness and I ask that you please stop XYZ."


Ever worked with a fear-driven person? That kind of direct approach - "you need to" doesn't get far. In fact, unless you're someone's boss "you need to" is a fairly inflammatory way to interact with an adult.

I have broached the subject that I think her belief that things are bad and there's more evil than good is preventing our marriage from making progress, can we engage a counselor about it? And she says "my fears have kept me alive and safe, I think the world would be better if everybody was more like me."

Nobody is going to fix something they believe is a benefit, and nobody will simply accept your view of them being broken.

However, I think (and I"ve been working with our counselor about the best way to convey this), I absolutely can and should control my response to her, as in, do something to take my time back.

I gave it a go last night, being super emotionally supportive and recognizing that all feelings are real. And then I said, "and I would like to encourage you to empower yourself to run your own reports in the software. You already enter all the information, so you're probably better at it than I am, because you know what's going to come out of a report." She said "you're trying to dump work on me". I said I am not intending on that. My real objective is for those reports to actually convey the information you want. And since you know what you want better than I do, I think you'd be better and faster at running those reports. With the freed up time, I could go to work on one of those outdoor projects you want me to do." She looked glum, but did not go into the stonewalling phase (classic for fear-driven people), which is a decent sign.

We'll see.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Sounds like a rollicking good time . But you seem content with it. Hope it can be worked out for you guys.


No, I'm not content with it. If I were content, I wouldn't be trying to make changes!

However, I'm not an alpha male, women in general aren't drawn to me, so the prospect of divorce and the search for someone to share my life with is not pleasant. I'd rather make this one work.

Our first 3-4 years were a rollicking good time. A financial collapse caused us to "pull in" everything and act as if we were in a cave, which I accepted as a way to weather that storm. But we never got back out of the cave and she now claims that when we did that, it reminded her that was how she preferred to live. 

One could claim she lured me on false pretenses, but that would be called "living in the past". You can only deal with what is now and today and work from there.

If we somehow work out an arrangement with the money where I'm not so darned involved, but her fears start getting her agitated about some other aspect of life and it's another struggle to get her to realize I'm not in charge of her feelings...well, I'm not inclined to want to live the rest of my life that way, and I may at that time choose to move on.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

DustyDog said:


> Ever worked with a fear-driven person? That kind of direct approach - "you need to" doesn't get far. In fact, unless you're someone's boss "you need to" is a fairly inflammatory way to interact with an adult.
> 
> I have broached the subject that I think her belief that things are bad and there's more evil than good is preventing our marriage from making progress, can we engage a counselor about it? And she says "my fears have kept me alive and safe, I think the world would be better if everybody was more like me."
> 
> ...


So now that that is out there....isn't the next thing to say (when it comes up again, because it WILL come up again): "I am ok with where our finances are. I KNOW you worry and I appreciate that, but I am not worried about them. If you want to stay more on top of them then knock yourself out. If you find something that I SHOULD worry about, let me know then. Until then, I will keep up in my own way." 

That way, you are not knocking her tendency to worry, but you are letting her know that it is her deal and not yours.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> The reason I asked is (I'm in the minority), it's mostly YOUR money.
> 
> That you lovingly share with her is wonderful.
> 
> ...


Definitely agree with many things you said.

Just because it the law says that martial money belongs to both doesn't mean that it's right. There's lots of stupid laws out there and this is just another one of them. I believe that if you earn it, it's your's and whether or not you want to share should be your own business. 

From personal experience, having separate accounts is the right way to go. If you have a joint account, expect that to be gone in short order. Having a joint account sounds good and looks good but it's quite impractical. It will be the cause of so many arguments it's not even worth it.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Remember, the whole "alpha male" thing is pretty much hogwash. Don't buy into it.


Would you kindly go into that in more detail?

What aspects are hogwash? The existence of alpha vs beta? I always correlated them with Type A vs. Type B personalities.

Or are you claiming that women really aren't drawn to the Type A/alpha rather than the B?

What I had been told by a female counselor: Most men who are available either go into or are Type A. Pro-active, keenly aware of how they are seen versus other males, etc. Women who get approached by men are far more likely to be approached by a Type A, and therefore, this is the 'type' that they expect and understand rather automatically.

Therefore, being a Type B, non-competitive who has no concerns about how I'm viewed by others or where I sit in any comparison, I'm not a draw...not because I'm not likeable/desirable, but because I'm not like other guys and women don't think they understand me or how to communicate with me. Not necessarily a preference, but I end up outside their comfort zones.

I've often wondered how much difference it makes. One thing that's interesting - when I hear my nieces (25-35 years younger than me) talking about the dating world, I'm shocked to hear the message repeated that they are "waiting" for guys to ask them out. Maybe I was in the dating game during a different part of women's lib, but when I was 20-35, women asked men out...in fact, the vast majority of my relationships, long or short, started because the woman approached me.

One counselor suggested that, in order to help figure out how I'd make a decision, I should plan for path A and path B. So, I'm working to keep the marriage relevant and alive, although I have to say the more my wife "becomes who she thinks she should have been all along", the less interesting she is. Plan B is to split. So, as part of Plan B, I am considering what I'd add to my relatively sparse social activities to meet women. Thus, the contemplation of type A/B, etc.

I remember a few times in my mid-30s, when I would teach an adult ed class on something like "cash flow management for the newly single", it wasn't a bad way to meet people of both genders. Had a fair number of women approach me then...perhaps teaching again would be an option.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> Definitely agree with many things you said.
> 
> Just because it the law says that martial money belongs to both doesn't mean that it's right.


I think it's completely right. Before these laws went into effect, there was a HUGE tendency for the man to pretty much be forced to support the woman for the rest of his life. These new laws are intended to make each person more self-sufficient and reduce the gender bias.

Also, the whole point of marriage is to tell the world "we are one, we do everything together, we no longer think as two people but our union is more important than either of us". If you don't want to send that message, don't get married, IMO. So, since everybody makes it clear that's what it's all about, before you tie the knot, it makes total sense that the law treats you as if, during the marriage, you really believed what you said, and are willing to abide by it.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I've always loosely believe in Type A and Type B personalities. Although there are probably other types. The more detailed (therefore accurate) personality classifications might be the Meyers-Brigg categories.
> 
> Meanwhile, I had never even heard of "alpha" and "beta" men, until I came to TAM
> 
> ...


I have never heard those views of alpha and beta. The only distinctions I've ever heard are simply how they present in public - Alpha being assertive/aggressive, Beta being more "I'll sit her and see who pays attention". A LOT of guys who present in public as Alpha are the *****whipped ones, because image is everything to them and the last thing they want is a wife criticizing them - at home or in public.

BTW, the Alpha/Beta stereotype is so common that when I was taking business classes, professors (of both genders) would refer to the two types, at least in classes that were working on team behavior. They didn't restrict it to men..and I have certainly had Alpha Females as bosses in my career!

Myers-Briggs was developed by mother/daughter team Myers and Briggs, with strong guidance from longtime family friend Karl Jung. It seeks to answer questions relating to how a man and woman get along in intimate settings, and what aspects of how they take in and process information will need management. Nothing about M-B relates to how a person behaves in public. An "alpha" male or "beta" male could test out as any of the 16 MB types.

Type A and type B boil down to whether a person pushes hard to get what they want versus being patient and waiting for it to arrive.

In most of my life, good stuff flies past so frequently that I don't think I miss much being Type B...except women. Not many of those cross my path.

MB is generally not regarded as accurate - just so common that it's useful as a reference.

I stumbled across the graphic of the chi, and it reminded me of my favorite dog, Dusty, who was a Chi mix. He loved everybody. I could take him to a party and he'd just navigate from one lap to the next, seeking attention, not food.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

> But my wife seems totally possessed by the dollar - or in fear of it? She pores over entering receipts into the money software, and she pores over reports and she's frantic...somehow, even though we've had several financial advisors tell us "you could have quit working 10 years ago", she's in constant fear that we missed something and we will suddenly go broke. *She fears this about everything - can't go for a walk in the forest because there might be bad guys out there with guns.*


She needs counselling. Some kind of script for a mild anxiolytic could also help.

Does she enjoy planning? Does it give her some sense of control? I can suggest another reference if so, but I'd do it by PM since I know the author.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

sapientia said:


> She needs counselling. Some kind of script for a mild anxiolytic could also help.


Been seeing a couples counselor for a year. Also, both of us see her separately. She's strongly anti-drugs in the area of anti-psychotics, as am I, which would hinder her acceptance of the drug. But more importantly, she claims that this "fear" is her strongest beneficial belief - it has kept her from straying too far off the "good" path, it's kept her from being accosted by criminals, etc. There's no point getting counseling for something that you believe is your biggest strength!



sapientia said:


> Does she enjoy planning? Does it give her some sense of control?


To the best of my ability to ascertain, no to the first one.

We have planned a few things. Despite agreeing to certain plans (for instance, who we'll see, where we'll go, when, during a 3-day trip to see family in San fran), it's as if there was no plan. I start to head out the door "this is when we said we'd head to the beach" and she says "but I'm going to go grocery shopping, so you go alone." What plan? Similar has happened in most cases when the plan is about activities.

On the other hand, if it's a construction project, and we get partly into it, and it's pretty clear that the plan can't be followed as written - that kind of fastener just isn't going to be strong enough - then when I propose we do something else instead, she gets very agitated about "violating" the plan, as if it's a law.

I have never seen her pull up a spreadsheet to evaluate future values of money, etc, although some time in the past, she claims to have been a bookkeeper.

We have a "sample plan" from a wealth manager that shows us spending $X per year, while they invest our money into vehicles that return anywhere from 2 to 12%. That is, there's more than one money bucket; the money we're spending today would come from the 2% fixed-rate bucket, while future buckets get more risky for more returns. She continues to claim she can't tell what this plan is proposing, but boy does she think we need to follow that $X per year as if a law presented from God. She actually goes ballistic if she sees that we broke that figure for even one week.

Mind you, the financial planner/wealth manager's written document says, over and over "this is a plan that shows success for 40 years given your current net worth and an assumption of spending habits. It does not represent a guarantee. Market returns, inflation and lifestyle alterations always happen and will necessitate a review and adjustment of the plan. In practice, if spending and earnings fall within 20% of given figures, the plan is being followed adequately. A desire to spend more can be compensated by adjusting risk level in the further out investments, for instance. If spending continues to fall under the limit, then we usually recommend altering long-term investments to ones with less volatility since you won't actually need market returns so high." In our meetings with him, he apparently sees her belief that somehow a "plan" is a guarantee and a rock-solid something, and cautions her that nothing is guaranteed, and if you have to alter the plan, you should feel very good about it because it means you are normal and alive.

I suppose one thing I keep forgetting to mention is that she is absolutely terrorized about uncertainty of anything, which explains a lot about why she interprets plans as she does and has to count every penny.


I've done project work for 40 years and to me a plan is a roadmap, which has predictions that may be wrong, may include errrors, and is subject to alteration if the weather is bad or your desires change. She apparently views a plan as something that, once written, is treated like the law.



sapientia said:


> I can suggest another reference if so, but I'd do it by PM since I know the author.


I would be interested in that PM. I'm hoping, always, that I'll come across some explanation of the planning process that she can wrap her mind around. Haven't found it yet.

Thanks!


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

I'll send you the PM, although I'm now skeptical it will help based on this last post. Your wife sounds OCD, anxious or some of both. An anxiolytic is not an anti-psychotic. It's basically some variant of valium.

If she is anti-drug (of course she would be) then I would suggest a herbal tea with a natural relaxant. Something with valerian and/or lemon balm. Camomile won't be strong enough. I'm not a medico, btw, but don't take the teas with any other medication without checking with a pharmacist first.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Another option is natural supplements if she is opposed to meds. The book "Mood Cure" is an excellent source of info.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If a couple have very different ideas on how to manage money, I don't think any sort of account arrangement will work. 

My wife and I pool all our money, then set aside some for each of us to use as we wish for our own fun.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

DustyDog said:


> Our numbers are almost off the charts, both over 850.


That's quite an achievement since the FICO score caps at 850. You must have received extra credit points. :smile2:


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> That's quite an achievement since the FICO score caps at 850. You must have received extra credit points. :smile2:


Fair-Isaac, the company that does the FICO score, does not state that there is a cap at all. The figure of 850 is used because people who obsess over it "can't remember the last time I saw anything above". Our banker will give us the figure. When he read mine to me a few months ago, I asked him how often he sees them over 850 and he says one or two per year. I asked him what the cap was and he said he didn't know but just a few weeks ago he saw 880. I said we never use credit, how can someone be higher? He said, "have an annual income of over $2 million, regularly borrow $100k to $500k and pay it back in less than two months. That's what the guy whose score was that high does. He buys houses, remodels, and sells them."


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