# Why Do Married Women Eventually Become Repulsed By Their Husbands Touch?



## jack_medley

Can someone please explain why this happens and why its so common?

After yet another unsuccessful attempt to seduce my wife, my confidence level is at an all-time low. she literally recoiled in disgust the last time I ran my hand up her thigh. I'm stuck in a sexless marriage and it's driving me crazy...


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## Herschel

Gtfo


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## EleGirl

The simple answer is that often when this happens it's because her emotional needs are not being met. For a long time, slowly love busters, lack of non-sexual intimacy, and other such things slowly erode her bond and her love.


Get the books "Love Buster" and "His Needs, Her Needs" ... read them in that order.


I've got some questions that could help us help you.

How long have the two of you been married? How old are you two? Do you have children? if so how old?

How many hours a week do you and your wife spend doing date-like things, just the two of you?


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## EleGirl

By the way, it's just as common for men to get to the point where they do not want sex with their wife.


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## jb02157

I think they do that to get their way, probably thinking if they take away sex from the marriage then you will do what ever they say. My wife does this to, although she's the one who gained all the weight and I should be repulsed by her touch. I'm used to being married to a refuser, I don't want anything from her anyway.


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## thefam

Deleted because Ele beat me to the punch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hotwaterbottle1

Do you show her affection outwith of wanting sex?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial

Resentment.


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## Mr. Nail

Usually it is because they (women or men) are in love with some one else.

Honestly If I felt like that for longer than 24 hours I would stop going home.


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## jb02157

Mr. Nail said:


> Usually it is because they (women or men) are in love with some one else.
> 
> Honestly If I felt like that for longer than 24 hours I would stop going home.


If only it was that simple


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## Anon1111

you'll get a lot of different responses here, each of which could be true in different circumstances

one way to approach this is to eliminate different possibilities, such as:

- are you objectively unattractive? do other women find you attractive at this point in your life? 

- is your marriage full of conflict? is resentment between you and your wife an issue?

- is your wife cheating on you?

the final possibility is that neither of you is doing anything wrong, but that she just isn't attracted to you anyway. this happens too


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## Spicy

I am curious to see the answers to the other posters questions.

One to add: Have you had a non-confrontational heart to heart conversation with her asking her what is wrong, and being very honest with her on how it is affecting you.

I am sorry you are going through this. Will look forward to your replies so we can try to help you more.


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## 2ntnuf

Here's how I understand it...partly. Of course this is not every man and woman. 

We are two different people after marriage. At first, we are the same as we were when we were dating. The bonding chemicals are strong. Our brains are filled with oxytocin and other chemicals. 

Eventually, we don't get the same rush from those chemicals and others take over.

We then become the other person in our marriage. Yes, just think about it. Men become less manly, or aloof, strong, independent and confident. We rely on our spouse to take up some of that slack. We talk more about our problems.

We listened to our wife more when we were dating. We tried to show we cared. After marriage, we take things for granted.

Our wife was shy and a little cautious in many instances. She was alluring and playful. She dressed in a manner that drew our attention. After marriage, we see her as she really is...beautiful, but not dressed to be alluring as often as previously. She starts to take things more seriously. She wants that strong man she dated. He's not there any more.

Men tend to do more for the woman they desire until the get her. Then, they slack off and it is like she was lied to about who we were. I don't think it's something men think about, as much as it is that men don't think about doing things to please and care for her, showing her you love and want her. 

That's all due to the chemicals changing to long-term bonding chemicals. You have to attempt to rebuild those lost emotions and desires, while still taking responsibility for things that make everyday life decent. Like, cleaning the home, laundry, dishes, the car, and so on and so forth. 

The book mentioned will help you to do those things that will make your wife feel like you love and want her again. It is work and that's what it takes to have a good marriage and stay in love.


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## jack_medley

EleGirl said:


> The simple answer is that often when this happens it's because her emotional needs are not being met. For a long time, slowly love busters, lack of non-sexual intimacy, and other such things slowly erode her bond and her love.
> 
> 
> Get the books "Love Buster" and "His Needs, Her Needs" ... read them in that order.
> 
> 
> I've got some questions that could help us help you.
> 
> How long have the two of you been married? How old are you two? Do you have children? if so how old?
> 
> How many hours a week do you and your wife spend doing date-like things, just the two of you?



- We've been married 12 years

- I'm 42 and my wife is 33

- We have one daughter who's 8

- That's a tough one. I have a crappy factory job and work close to 80 hours a week. She's a stay-at-home mom. We don't have a ton of alone time together but once a week we'll snuggle up and watch some netflix together for a few hours. It doesn't actually lead to any sex though (she'll always say she's not in the mood)


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## beggars_banquet

Geeze, it really is depressing isn't it? I don't get it either. I'm in the same exact situation.


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## MrsAldi

Repulse is a strong word. Like hate. 

I don't know, I still am crazy about my husband. 
But since you work long hours & she's at home with the kids, I suspect it's tiredness, lack of effort on both of you to keep the passion alive. 
Running a hand up a thigh isn't passionate either. 

Try wooing her like it's your first date again, get a babysitter when you can. 
Try working on the emotional elements first. 
Find out if there is any resentment on her end. 
Resolve these issues first. 
Communication is necessary. 
You need to take the mundane away & get her excited again. 





Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Married27years

Why do some people posted statements about a segment of the population (women) and say they all do this. They don't. Some women don't desire sex as they get older but some men don't either and I wouldn't post that all men are repulsed by their wives touch. I happen to love being touched by my husband night, day and in the morning.


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## Mr. Nail

I think repulse is a strong word also. I felt it once in a relationship. It was a result of severe frustration, and my spouse did not ask what was wrong. An emotion that strong is coming from somewhere. 80 hours a week at work and a preschooler at home may be making her feel abandoned. Honestly I think this is more than faded attraction, way more.


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## Scannerguard

I"m as sexist as they come. . .I mean "sexist" has a bad connotation in conversation in that it means prejudice. But I try to be sexist from the standpoint in that I just really find the differences in the sexes INTERESTING/FASCINATING. And that I don't mind being called out on it when I am wrong.

So, that said, in all fairness, maybe "frigidity" tilts towards women in a 60/40 manner but believe me, there are plenty of women here with frigid husbands.

To state this is an eventuality of women isn't true.

Sorry, pinning on 2 X chromosomes just isn't going to help you or anyone.


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## EleGirl

jack_medley said:


> - We've been married 12 years
> 
> - I'm 42 and my wife is 33
> 
> - We have one daughter who's 8
> 
> - That's a tough one. I have a crappy factory job and work close to 80 hours a week. She's a stay-at-home mom. We don't have a ton of alone time together but once a week we'll snuggle up and watch some netflix together for a few hours. It doesn't actually lead to any sex though (she'll always say she's not in the mood)


Ok, so you spend not time with her really... Most women would get to the point of not wanting sex with a husband who does not have time for her.

Yes, I know you work a lot of hours. But there is still some time every day that you could spend with her. Send the kids to bed and that's your time.

Watching Netflix is not quality time because you focusted on the TV and not on each other. 

Get the books, read them.


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## zzzman99

2ntnuf said:


> Here's how I understand it...partly. Of course this is not every man and woman.
> 
> We are two different people after marriage. At first, we are the same as we were when we were dating. The bonding chemicals are strong. Our brains are filled with oxytocin and other chemicals.
> 
> Eventually, we don't get the same rush from those chemicals and others take over.
> 
> We then become the other person in our marriage. Yes, just think about it. Men become less manly, or aloof, strong, independent and confident. We rely on our spouse to take up some of that slack. We talk more about our problems.
> 
> We listened to our wife more when we were dating. We tried to show we cared. After marriage, we take things for granted.
> 
> Our wife was shy and a little cautious in many instances. She was alluring and playful. She dressed in a manner that drew our attention. After marriage, we see her as she really is...beautiful, but not dressed to be alluring as often as previously. She starts to take things more seriously. She wants that strong man she dated. He's not there any more.
> 
> Men tend to do more for the woman they desire until the get her. Then, they slack off and it is like she was lied to about who we were. I don't think it's something men think about, as much as it is that men don't think about doing things to please and care for her, showing her you love and want her.
> 
> That's all due to the chemicals changing to long-term bonding chemicals. You have to attempt to rebuild those lost emotions and desires, while still taking responsibility for things that make everyday life decent. Like, cleaning the home, laundry, dishes, the car, and so on and so forth.
> 
> The book mentioned will help you to do those things that will make your wife feel like you love and want her again. It is work and that's what it takes to have a good marriage and stay in love.



This-->"She wants that strong man she dated. He's not there any more."

This-->"You have to attempt to rebuild those lost emotions and desires, while still taking responsibility for things that make everyday life decent."

Not This--->"Like, cleaning the home, laundry, dishes, the car, and so on and so forth." Choreplay does not work. Look at the studies. Instead, do classic gender type work around the house.

Also, stop acting like a child and being needy. She gets to be emotional, or needy, or comforting, or stoic. She can do whatever she wants. You, on the other hand, don't get the same options. 

The only chance you have is to be a man and stay attractive. If you are not attractive, get attractive. And, set yourself up to move on if you have to.



“The female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place.” -- Robert Briffault, The Mothers, I, 191


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## 2ntnuf

zzzman99 said:


> This-->"She wants that strong man she dated. He's not there any more."
> 
> This-->"You have to attempt to rebuild those lost emotions and desires, while still taking responsibility for things that make everyday life decent."
> 
> Not This--->"Like, cleaning the home, laundry, dishes, the car, and so on and so forth." Choreplay does not work. Look at the studies. Instead, do classic gender type work around the house.
> 
> Also, stop acting like a child and being needy. She gets to be emotional, or needy, or comforting, or stoic. She can do whatever she wants. You, on the other hand, don't get the same options.
> 
> The only chance you have is to be a man and stay attractive. If you are not attractive, get attractive. And, set yourself up to move on if you have to.
> 
> 
> 
> “The female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place.” -- Robert Briffault, The Mothers, I, 191


You're correct. I made a mistake, though I do not think it is not okay to help out around the house doing things besides men's traditional work a little. 

Although, after thinking about what you posted, I remembered a day years ago when I was still married to my second wife. Her sister was visiting and talking on the porch. I was in the yard working on building a quick foundation for a plastic shed and then putting that together. In total, it took me about an hour and a half to get it done.

Sheesh, the comments from both of them. I couldn't believe it. I was in better shape then, too. 

So, yeah, my mistake.


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## Voltaire2013

NobodySpecial said:


> Resentment.


Can I double like this? The good thing is there is a potential way back. 

Cheers,
V(13)


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## Thound

It's like a Geico commercial. They're women. That's what they do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Personal

jack_medley said:


> Can someone please explain why this happens and why its so common?


Some do, some don't the same applies to men as well, being repulsed probably isn't the norm.

Thinking like that certainly isn't going to help you get the sex you desire.



jack_medley said:


> After yet another unsuccessful attempt to seduce my wife, my confidence level is at an all-time low. she literally recoiled in disgust the last time I ran my hand up her thigh. I'm stuck in a sexless marriage and it's driving me crazy...


You're kidding yourself if you think you are stuck in a sexless marriage. If you don't like it a divorce will fix that.

At the end of the day you would be better served by appreciating the fact that while ever you stay, you are actually choosing a sexless marriage.

If you don't like this do something about it, if you don't do anything about it, suck it up since you have chosen it.



jack_medley said:


> - We've been married 12 years
> 
> - I'm 42 and my wife is 33
> 
> - We have one daughter who's 8
> 
> - That's a tough one. I have a crappy factory job and work close to 80 hours a week. She's a stay-at-home mom. We don't have a ton of alone time together but once a week we'll snuggle up and watch some netflix together for a few hours. It doesn't actually lead to any sex though (she'll always say she's not in the mood)


Working 80 hours a week are you nuts?

Seriously 80 hours works out at almost 11½ hours a day 7 days a week factor in 8 hours sleep per day, time spent showering, brushing one's teeth, plus travel time and meals etc. I find it hard to believe you spend much conscious time with her at all.

Really If you think spending almost all of your time away from your wife or otherwise being unconscious entitles you to sex and or makes you sexually attractive you are barking up the wrong tree.

Are you here to impotently rant or do you actually want some practical advice?


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## poida

jack_medley said:


> Can someone please explain why this happens and why its so common?
> 
> After yet another unsuccessful attempt to seduce my wife, my confidence level is at an all-time low. she literally recoiled in disgust the last time I ran my hand up her thigh. I'm stuck in a sexless marriage and it's driving me crazy...


Because the chores of life are not sexy and stress, exhaustion and lack of exercise play havoc with our sex drive.

Forget about sex for a while and make space and time in your life for intimacy. 

Work on your communication and discuss what you both really want in life and her marriage. Emotional connection is the key. You should be able to say anything to each other.

Talk about the good times, how you met, why you got married. Remind yourself why you were attracted to each other at the start.

Go to the gym, get some muscle. No woman will admit they get turned on by it, but they do.

Go on, get on with it.


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## Hopeful Cynic

Why do women become repulsed? I don't know...why do men become repulsive?



jack_medley said:


> - We've been married 12 years
> 
> - I'm 42 and my wife is 33
> 
> - We have one daughter who's 8
> 
> - That's a tough one. I have a crappy factory job and work close to 80 hours a week. She's a stay-at-home mom. We don't have a ton of alone time together but once a week we'll snuggle up and watch some netflix together for a few hours. It doesn't actually lead to any sex though (she'll always say she's not in the mood)


If you can't reduce your work hours, you'll have to amp up the quality of your time together. TALK to her, and brainstorm which option to pick, and how to make it happen.

What do you watch on Netflix? Is it your choice of action movie, or her choice of romcom? You'll get better results with a romcom, believe me, even if you hate watching it.

Also, foreplay begins in the mind, not the thigh.

You guys barely know each other anymore. She's not repulsed, she just doesn't want sex with a guy she barely knows.


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## VladDracul

Most men think its time that causes women to lose desire. Your problem my man is that it likely your actions lowered her romantic interest in you. When a woman's romantic interest drops below a certain point, even so call duty sex becomes sickening. What's worse is that once her interest level drop, it will be hell to ever get it back (if it can be done)


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## 3Xnocharm

EleGirl said:


> The simple answer is that often when this happens it's because her emotional needs are not being met. For a long time, slowly love busters, lack of non-sexual intimacy, and other such things slowly erode her bond and her love.


This is your answer right here. Sex for us women is in our brain and our heart. 

So....

If the only time you touch or kiss your wife is to pursue sex...

If you never spend time with her...

If you ignore her...

If you never compliment her...

If you criticize, insult or complain about her...

If your sexual approach is to grab her boobs, butt, or crotch....

If you let yourself go physically/hygiene-wise....

If you dont pull your weight with household and financial duties...

If you never thank her/show appreciation for her....

If you never do little things that make her feel special and remind her how much you love her....

If you dont treat her as your highest priority....


You will eventually stop getting sex. Period.


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## 2ntnuf

Something came up for me this morning. Are most women this weak? Do most women need this kind of attention or are there those who are mature enough to understand that men cannot spend all of their free time thinking about what they can do and doing for their wife? 

Maybe I'm reading too much into what "making her the most important thing in my life" actually means? Reads like doormat philosophy.


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## manfromlamancha

Jack you must have some theories of your own as to why she is this way - what are they ?

Only you will have the necessary insight into why this is - given all the possible reasons already covered in this thread.

And the reading recommended will definitely help in some of those cases. For others (e.g. she has become interested in someone else) a different approach will have to be taken. But you will need to give us more of a clue.


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## 3Xnocharm

2ntnuf said:


> Something came up for me this morning. Are most women this weak? Do most women need this kind of attention or are there those who are mature enough to understand that men cannot spend all of their free time thinking about what they can do and doing for their wife?
> 
> Maybe I'm reading too much into what "making her the most important thing in my life" actually means? Reads like doormat philosophy.


The need to feel valued by your partner is nothing even close to weakness! Making someone feel valued and loved doesn't mean kissing their ass 24/7! It really doesn't take that much effort...way to misconstrue and blow out of proportion what I said. I stated what I thought would be valuable insight for the OP and anyone else wondering why their wife doesn't want sex any more. Its the truth, whether you accept it as such or not.


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## NobodySpecial

If someone has to effort to "make" someone "feel" appreciated, then they are not appreciated, right or wrong. They are just getting smoke blown up their butt.


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## Starstarfish

> Are most women this weak? Do most women need this kind of attention or are there those who are mature enough to understand that men cannot spend all of their free time thinking about what they can do and doing for their wife?


Maybe they are about as common as Men who are mature enough to understanding women cannot spend all of their free time thinking about what kind of sex they can do and are doing for her husband?



> but once a week we'll snuggle up and watch some netflix together for a few hours. It doesn't actually lead to any sex though


Which sounds like a covert contract. You spend time with her and assume that the "reward" for that should be sex. But if that's basically all of the time you spend with her alone, she might want to feel that you want to spend time with her regardless if you have sex.

Have you worked 80 hours a week the entire 12 years you've been married? Have you tried to get a different job at all? I'm guessing spending the large majority of her time alone or with the kids wasn't exactly what a 21 year old young woman was imagining when she got married.


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## barbados

Married27years said:


> Why do some people posted statements about a segment of the population (women) and say they all do this. They don't. Some women don't desire sex as they get older but some men don't either and I wouldn't post that all men are repulsed by their wives touch. I happen to love being touched by my husband night, day and in the morning.



I'm coming up on 30 years with Mrs. B, and if the thread title is true, she sure has a funny way of showing it. :grin2:


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## Vega

Deleted. Starfish beat me to the punch!


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## Vega

3Xnocharm said:


> The need to feel valued by your partner is nothing even close to weakness! Making someone feel valued and loved doesn't mean kissing their ass 24/7! It really doesn't take that much effort...way to misconstrue and blow out of proportion what I said. I stated what I thought would be valuable insight for the OP and anyone else wondering why their wife doesn't want sex any more. Its the truth, whether you accept it as such or not.


This means, needing to feel valued _*NON*_-sexually. 

Otherwise, if the only 'attention' you give to her is sexual, she's going to feel that sex is the ONLY reason you want her.


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## jld

The only way I can imagine losing desire, or even worse, becoming repulsed by my husband's touch, would be if I lost all respect for him.

Has she any reason to feel that way, OP?


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## Ikaika

3Xnocharm said:


> This is your answer right here. Sex for us women is in our brain and our heart.
> 
> So....
> 
> If the only time you touch or kiss your wife is to pursue sex...
> 
> If you never spend time with her...
> 
> If you ignore her...
> 
> If you never compliment her...
> 
> If you criticize, insult or complain about her...
> 
> If your sexual approach is to grab her boobs, butt, or crotch....
> 
> If you let yourself go physically/hygiene-wise....
> 
> If you dont pull your weight with household and financial duties...
> 
> If you never thank her/show appreciation for her....
> 
> If you never do little things that make her feel special and remind her how much you love her....
> 
> If you dont treat her as your highest priority....
> 
> 
> You will eventually stop getting sex. Period.






2ntnuf said:


> Something came up for me this morning. Are most women this weak? Do most women need this kind of attention or are there those who are mature enough to understand that men cannot spend all of their free time thinking about what they can do and doing for their wife?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm reading too much into what "making her the most important thing in my life" actually means? Reads like doormat philosophy.




I can't speak for the OP, because if were 42 and I worked (labor job) nearly 12 hours a day six days a week - I admit I would come home, eat and sleep, knowing tomorrow I wake to another back breaking day. My seventh day would be catch up up on sleep. I could do this in my 20s (12 on and 12 off seven days a week for nearly four years when I was in the military, but not now). I could also do it when I was in graduate school (I was married at the time, but no kids) - seven days a week 10 hour days, but more lab and thinking labor. So, I admit I have little to offer the OP, sorry. I just can't relate. 

However I found these two quotes to be interesting points of view. 2ntnuf, I'm not attempting to devalue your input, but I think it is important to realize we all want to be valued. And I'm not sure that this a matter of weakness (or doormat). Is she valued by him is he valued by her. I'm not suggesting putting her on some pedestal, rather see some of the points made by 3Xnocharm. There are things on that list I'm guilty of not doing or maybe doing that I should not do. But, unlike what I often read here on TAM and what is suggested, my wife is not repulsed by my touch. And, after nearly 22 years of marriage we have regular sex. Do we have our dry spells? Sure, but often that is broken because either of us initiates the breaking of it.

We both work (many times I can do my job from home) so our free time is valuable. We have two teenage sons (one with special needs the other constantly involved in organized sports). So, there is no way I can just ignore what is important to both of us. We are both tested at times and anger gets the best of us. In the end, the team of hunter/gatherer has to recognize that one is not necessarily more important than the other. 

The thing is terms of touching time, I listen to what she wants. For my wife, I spend more time kissing and caressing the back of her neck then on other assumed erotic zones. This normally gets her motor ready quicker and warmer than if I just went for the obvious. Yes, after climax, I can be exhausted, however it is a workout (at least it can be in terms of our endurance and such) so my heart is racing. Thus the "after" conversations to both of us are just as important as that before it as we both drift off. So, I don't see it as doormat philosophy, at least not for me. It has worked for over 21 years in our marriage. 

I know I will be raked across the hot coals by some guys here, but all I can say, is that it works for us. Find what works, try some of 3Xnocharm's list. In the end, I do believe she will want to have sex with the man that values her. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Thound

Starstarfish said:


> Maybe they are about as common as Men who are mature enough to understanding women cannot spend all of their free time thinking about what kind of sex they can do and are doing for her husband?
> 
> 
> 
> Which sounds like a covert contract. You spend time with her and assume that the "reward" for that should be sex. But if that's basically all of the time you spend with her alone, she might want to feel that you want to spend time with her regardless if you have sex.
> 
> Have you worked 80 hours a week the entire 12 years you've been married? Have you tried to get a different job at all? I'm guessing spending the large majority of her time alone or with the kids wasn't exactly what a 21 year old young woman was imagining when she got married.


I think covert contracts do a lot of harm to a marriage. For most of our marriage, have used the covert contract. It created a lot of resentment and did a lot of harm.

I finally got sick of it, and started doing things because they needed to be done, or I knew she needed my help. When we would go to bed, I would roll over and go to sleep. After a few months she brought it up, and I told her I was sick of getting an allowance, and we were to have sex I wanted it to because she wanted to or she wanted fulfill my need without me prompting her. 

I won't lie. It didn't increase the amount, but it did increase the intimacy.


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## Wolf1974

2ntnuf said:


> Something came up for me this morning. Are most women this weak? Do most women need this kind of attention or are there those who are mature enough to understand that men cannot spend all of their free time thinking about what they can do and doing for their wife?
> 
> Maybe I'm reading too much into what "*making her the most important thing in my life"* actually means? Reads like doormat philosophy.


I don't think it's weakness personally. I think that for many women this just translates into what love is. Are we really that different? I know for me the number one pain I had with marriage was that I ranked somewhere near the bottom of her priority list while she was first on mine. That can build serious resentment which I didn't realize until the time I was processing through divorce. 

I know for me going forward I wouldn't be with anyone in a relationship who isn't willing to put me first. Now how that translates to the different genders or individual people will be wide and varied. Think the problem becomes when we allow ourselves to be treated in a way that disrepects or belittles us. That's true for either gender.


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## Talker67

"repulsed by their husbands"??? 

I have not found that to be the case. What sort of married couples are you hanging around with??


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## john117

jld said:


> The only way I can imagine losing desire, or even worse, becoming repulsed by my husband's touch, would be if I lost all respect for him.
> 
> Has she any reason to feel that way, OP?


True but conveniently so. Respect is a rather open term...


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## jld

john117 said:


> True but conveniently so. Respect is a rather open term...


It really only matters how the one rejecting defines it, john.

OP, still waiting to hear from you.


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## WasDecimated

3Xnocharm said:


> This is your answer right here. Sex for us women is in our brain and our heart.
> 
> So....
> 
> If the only time you touch or kiss your wife is to pursue sex...
> 
> If you never spend time with her...
> 
> If you ignore her...
> 
> If you never compliment her...
> 
> If you criticize, insult or complain about her...
> 
> If your sexual approach is to grab her boobs, butt, or crotch....
> 
> If you let yourself go physically/hygiene-wise....
> 
> If you dont pull your weight with household and financial duties...
> 
> If you never thank her/show appreciation for her....
> 
> If you never do little things that make her feel special and remind her how much you love her....
> 
> If you dont treat her as your highest priority....
> 
> 
> You will eventually stop getting sex. Period.





3Xnocharm said:


> "Sex for us women is in our brain and our heart"


Oh please, let’s be honest here...hearts are not capable of thinking about sex...so let’s not blame them, it's All in your brain.

Therefore, if this is true, we must assume that if a woman's brain/rationalization has been shaped by society, media or FOO, than her reaction to this list, and OP’s contributions, may also be skewed as well or just not valued. 

Even if you did all or most of these things right, there's no guarantee that she would be any more affectionate now. I've seen this happen even in marriages where the husband was solid in every respect. I was a good example of this. My XWW was a bottomless pit that could never be satisfied. She sucked up everything I did for her but still wanted more. The harder I tried, the higher she raised the bar. I read books, tried all the love languages, nothing worked. Simply, I was a giver and she was a taker and there was no way I could ever make her happy. Her brain/thinking had been compromised by society, media, FOO and the guy she was screwing behind my back.

In our society, many women, from the time they are little girls, are fed a steady diet of the fairy-tale fantasy of what life/marriage is supposed to be like. I fear it has become the subconscious template for how many women gauge success and happiness in their lives. If their ideal of marriage doesn't match up with the reality, the blame naturally goes to the husband...and then resentment sets in. I also think they are conditioned to always expect those lovey-dovey butterfly feelings even after many years of marriage. The fantasy narrative doesn't teach them that good marriages and that lovey-dovey feeling take a lot of work and effort to maintain. It also doesn't teach them that it is natural for those feelings to fade and/or transform into a more comfortable form of real love. Couple this with some FOO issues, parents’ divorced, social media, and I'm surprised the divorce rate isn't higher than it is.

Here is an exercise for the OP. Ask yourself if you've done all these things on this list right. Take the same list and ask yourself "Does my wife do all these things right? Does she even try?


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## 2ntnuf

3Xnocharm said:


> The need to feel valued by your partner is nothing even close to weakness! Making someone feel valued and loved doesn't mean kissing their ass 24/7! It really doesn't take that much effort...way to misconstrue and blow out of proportion what I said. I stated what I thought would be valuable insight for the OP and anyone else wondering why their wife doesn't want sex any more. Its the truth, whether you accept it as such or not.


You weren't talking about the need to feel valued. You listed what the husband can do for his wife to place her on that pedestal or as you put it, make her his top priority. 

I think that's a mistake. 

If he values himself, he will want to take care of his home, it's cleanliness, his hygiene, his physical appearance for his own well-being.

If he is doing those things, he's got half that list done and he's not doing it for her, but she gets some of the fruits of his labor. 

Her pride in him goes up. 

She respects him for taking responsibility for himself. 

She doesn't have to worry if he is doing those things for her or not because they are getting done.

He makes himself the top priority and this is what drives him to do the best he can.

He feels good and wants his wife to feel good, too. 

He picks up a little gift for her now and then because he feels great and wants to share his happiness, not because he needs to do these things or he won't get sex. 

Guess what? Doing those things for her because otherwise she won't give him sex is about the most immature thing going. 

Also, it would make him feel worthless because he has to pay her for sex. She doesn't just want him like he does her. 

See the difference? The list is good. The motives are suspicious(dubious).


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## 3Xnocharm

Putting her on a pedestal is not AT ALL what I was getting at. That is not a healthy dynamic. A good partner does these things because he (or she!) LOVES his/her partner and wants to make sure that partner knows it. It should be the natural flow of a relationship, not a bartering tool or a means to an end. 

I cant believe I am having to defend meeting your spouse's emotional needs, here.


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## Ikaika

2ntnuf said:


> You weren't talking about the need to feel valued. You listed what the husband can do for his wife to place her on that pedestal or as you put it, make her his top priority.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's a mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> If he values himself, he will want to take care of his home, it's cleanliness, his hygiene, his physical appearance for his own well-being.
> 
> 
> 
> If he is doing those things, he's got half that list done and he's not doing it for her, but she gets some of the fruits of his labor.
> 
> 
> 
> Her pride in him goes up.
> 
> 
> 
> She respects him for taking responsibility for himself.
> 
> 
> 
> She doesn't have to worry if he is doing those things for her or not because they are getting done.
> 
> 
> 
> He makes himself the top priority and this is what drives him to do the best he can.
> 
> 
> 
> He feels good and wants his wife to feel good, too.
> 
> 
> 
> He picks up a little gift for her now and then because he feels great and wants to share his happiness, not because he needs to do these things or he won't get sex.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess what? Doing those things for her because otherwise she won't give him sex is about the most immature thing going.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, it would make him feel worthless because he has to pay her for sex. She doesn't just want him like he does her.
> 
> 
> 
> See the difference? The list is good. The motives are suspicious.




Correct, if you giving value to both your SO as well as to the relationship in general and the same is not being returned then it is time to have self worth and move on. To stick around would in fact be the doormat attitude. I know I would not have time for that sort of selfish action. Oops, I've had that selfish attitude. Ok, I grew up. 

However, this is not indicative of all relationships. So, each time one asks "what happened to our relationship?" We have to examine are we bringing value to the relationship. And, if we are then it is time to realize this may be time to move on. 


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## Ikaika

3Xnocharm said:


> Putting her on a pedestal is not AT ALL what I was getting at. That is not a healthy dynamic. A good partner does these things because he (or she!) LOVES his/her partner and wants to make sure that partner knows it. It should be the natural flow of a relationship, not a bartering tool or a means to an end.
> 
> 
> 
> I cant believe I am having to defend meeting your spouse's emotional needs, here.




You said it better than me. For us sex is just a natural flow of events from the day or the week. I don't think my wife separates it out from other things that transpired early in the day, so it hardly becomes a bargaining chip or me begging and reminder her of what I did earlier to deserve it. It just flows. 


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## 2ntnuf

3Xnocharm said:


> Putting her on a pedestal is not AT ALL what I was getting at. That is not a healthy dynamic. A good partner does these things because he (or she!) LOVES his/her partner and wants to make sure that partner knows it. It should be the natural flow of a relationship, not a bartering tool or a means to an end.
> 
> I cant believe I am having to defend meeting your spouse's emotional needs, here.


You're not defending meeting a spouse's emotional needs. Those are covered in my post. 

You are defending your idea that a man does things because he wants to make his wife his top priority and that he will not get sex if he does not, as you posted. 

I disagreed with that. 

If he is not happy because he is doing those things out of the need to make his wife his top priority and get sex, he likely will feel like he is paying for sex.

If he feels good about himself, he will do those things. He will want to spend time with his wife. He will want to do little things for her to share his happiness. 

Read over my post and think a little. Thanks.


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## 2ntnuf

Ikaika said:


> You said it better than me. For us sex is just a natural flow of events from the day or the week. I don't think my wife separates it out from other things that transpired early in the day, so it hardly becomes a bargaining chip or me begging and reminder her of what I did earlier to deserve it. It just flows.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Wow, you guys are really thick today. :laugh:


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## jack_medley

jld said:


> The only way I can imagine losing desire, or even worse, becoming repulsed by my husband's touch, would be if I lost all respect for him.
> 
> Has she any reason to feel that way, OP?



Not that I know of.

The only thing I can think of is that I work too much and that's why she's giving me the cold shoulder. I ask her what's wrong and she just says "I'm not in the mood". 

She's never in the mood. I didn't do anything wrong other than trying to provide for my family.


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## poida

2ntnuf said:


> Something came up for me this morning. Are most women this weak? Do most women need this kind of attention or are there those who are mature enough to understand that men cannot spend all of their free time thinking about what they can do and doing for their wife?
> 
> Maybe I'm reading too much into what "making her the most important thing in my life" actually means? Reads like doormat philosophy.


Like it or not, what we do triggers desire in a woman (I mean who else is going to do it for you?)

But, don't think of it as things you are doing FOR her, but for yourself.

You need to enjoy what you to/for your wife.

I have spent time recently really just enjoying the small things, such as a soft scalp massage when sitting next to her on the couch, or a sexy waist rub when she is cooking in the kitchen, breathe and a soft kiss to the ear (that really gets most women). 

Then, if things start to flow, a gentle rub to the thigh, an embrace around her waist underneath her breasts.

Boy, I'm getting a chub thinking about it, but as you can see its the little things. You have to enjoy them too.

Same goes for compliments. If you think her hair looks good and it makes you feel good to see her smile when you say so, then there's your reward right there. 

Think more about your pleasure aND YOU WILL ACTUALLY BE DOING MORE FOR HER.


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## red37

jb02157 said:


> I think they do that to get their way, probably thinking if they take away sex from the marriage then you will do what ever they say. My wife does this to, although she's the one who gained all the weight and I should be repulsed by her touch. I'm used to being married to a refuser, I don't want anything from her anyway.


That's not nice

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## 2ntnuf

poida said:


> Like it or not, what we do triggers desire in a woman (I mean who else is going to do it for you?)
> 
> But, don't think of it as things you are doing FOR her, but for yourself.
> 
> You need to enjoy what you to/for your wife.
> 
> I have spent time recently really just enjoying the small things, such as a soft scalp massage when sitting next to her on the couch, or a sexy waist rub when she is cooking in the kitchen, breathe and a soft kiss to the ear (that really gets most women).
> 
> Then, if things start to flow, a gentle rub to the thigh, an embrace around her waist underneath her breasts.
> 
> Boy, I'm getting a chub thinking about it, but as you can see its the little things. You have to enjoy them too.
> 
> Same goes for compliments. If you think her hair looks good and it makes you feel good to see her smile when you say so, then there's your reward right there.
> 
> Think more about your pleasure aND YOU WILL ACTUALLY BE DOING MORE FOR HER.



I get your point. It's the same on the rest of the folks quoting me are trying to make, or at least similar.

What you are essentially saying by, "Think more about your pleasure and you will actually be doing ore for her", is close to what I was saying.

What I was saying is that the husband needs to put himself first. I don't mean that he needs to get his wife to do things for him before he will do things for her. 

What I mean is, if he cares about himself, he will want to look good, stay clean when possible, take care of his home by doing normal chores he'd have to do if she wasn't there, dress smartly, take care of his vehicle(s), go out once in a while for some quality fun, have a few friends, eat well so he will not feel sluggish and become overweight, exercise so he looks good when he looks at himself in the mirror after taking a shower, put some nice aftershave on when he is done shaving, etc., etc.

How would a man feel if he does all these things? Well, I figure he must feel pretty good about himself and his life. He must be at least somewhat happy.

When a man feels happy, he wants to share it with the ones he loves. His wife, the closest person to him, would enter his mind. He would want to do things for her. 

I don't mean he would want to wash the dishes for her. He would do that because he wants his home clean. He wouldn't use the vacuum on the carpet for her. He would do that because he wants to walk on clean carpet. And so on and so forth with the regular housekeeping.

Would his wife like him doing those things? Probably. She doesn't have to ask him. He wants to do those things because he wants a clean comfortable home. 

As for what he would want to do for her to share his happiness, I'd imagine, as I did, buying her a favorite chocolate once in a while. Buying her a card that expresses how he loves/respects/appreciates her. 

He might want to take her to dinner, a movie, a play, dancing, a concert by her favorite band, etc. He may want to sit on the couch with their favorite ice cream, which he picked up along with a movie she's been talking about wanting to see and just cuddling with her. 

He may tell her how beautiful she is, how he appreciated her reminding him of something, or just that he loves her.

These kinds of things don't happen when a man doesn't feel good about himself. He will not have anything to share if he is not happy. That does not mean I am suggesting his wife should be giving him sex. 

It means that he needs to put himself first or he will have nothing to give to his wife. 

I believe this to be the reason many marriages start down hill. The husband is trying to please his wife with all he does and loses himself in the process. He tends to look more like a servant to her than an equal. What woman wants to marry a servant? 

Don't most women want a man with his own thoughts and desires, who is loving and kind in ways that show her she is important to him? I don't see how he can do that if he isn't happy within himself...first. 

I also don't mean that he should neglect his responsibilities or his wife to gain self-respect and be proud of himself and happy. He needs to work those things into their lives, without being gone all the time. 

However, if he has in his mind that he is doing housework, chores and it's all so that his wife can feel like he loves her, he is doing it for nothing. He needs to actually love himself and her, then what he does will be less like work. 

The work he thinks he is doing to please her and get sex will seem worthless when she decides she isn't in the mood when he is. Remember, she doesn't have to be in the mood. 

When that happens, and it will, he will wonder if what he is getting is worth the work and may resent her and stop doing as much. 

If he is doing the work for his benefit, and sex is not possible for some reason, he likely won't get resentful. He will be happy to have done things to keep his home and his appearance nice. 

Does that help you to understand why I think the list is pretty good, yet the reason for doing those things was dubious? Below is the quote and here is the part that made me think about it a bit more.




> If you dont treat her as your highest priority....
> 
> 
> You will eventually stop getting sex. Period.



If you don't first see to your own happiness, not including sex, how will you have true desire to treat her with the loving kindness? You won't, if you feel like you have to give from a place of subservience and barter. 





3Xnocharm said:


> This is your answer right here. Sex for us women is in our brain and our heart.
> 
> So....
> 
> If the only time you touch or kiss your wife is to pursue sex...
> 
> If you never spend time with her...
> 
> If you ignore her...
> 
> If you never compliment her...
> 
> If you criticize, insult or complain about her...
> 
> If your sexual approach is to grab her boobs, butt, or crotch....
> 
> If you let yourself go physically/hygiene-wise....
> 
> If you dont pull your weight with household and financial duties...
> 
> If you never thank her/show appreciation for her....
> 
> If you never do little things that make her feel special and remind her how much you love her....
> 
> If you dont treat her as your highest priority....
> 
> 
> You will eventually stop getting sex. Period.


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## poida

Sure, but you are really over-thinking this man.

Keep it simple.


----------



## no name

2ntnuf said:


> I get your point. It's the same on the rest of the folks quoting me are trying to make, or at least similar.
> 
> 
> 
> What you are essentially saying by, "Think more about your pleasure and you will actually be doing ore for her", is close to what I was saying.
> 
> 
> 
> What I was saying is that the husband needs to put himself first. I don't mean that he needs to get his wife to do things for him before he will do things for her.
> 
> 
> 
> What I mean is, if he cares about himself, he will want to look good, stay clean when possible, take care of his home by doing normal chores he'd have to do if she wasn't there, dress smartly, take care of his vehicle(s), go out once in a while for some quality fun, have a few friends, eat well so he will not feel sluggish and become overweight, exercise so he looks good when he looks at himself in the mirror after taking a shower, put some nice aftershave on when he is done shaving, etc., etc.
> 
> 
> 
> How would a man feel if he does all these things? Well, I figure he must feel pretty good about himself and his life. He must be at least somewhat happy.
> 
> 
> 
> When a man feels happy, he wants to share it with the ones he loves. His wife, the closest person to him, would enter his mind. He would want to do things for her.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't mean he would want to wash the dishes for her. He would do that because he wants his home clean. He wouldn't use the vacuum on the carpet for her. He would do that because he wants to walk on clean carpet. And so on and so forth with the regular housekeeping.
> 
> 
> 
> Would his wife like him doing those things? Probably. She doesn't have to ask him. He wants to do those things because he wants a clean comfortable home.
> 
> 
> 
> As for what he would want to do for her to share his happiness, I'd imagine, as I did, buying her a favorite chocolate once in a while. Buying her a card that expresses how he loves/respects/appreciates her.
> 
> 
> 
> He might want to take her to dinner, a movie, a play, dancing, a concert by her favorite band, etc. He may want to sit on the couch with their favorite ice cream, which he picked up along with a movie she's been talking about wanting to see and just cuddling with her.
> 
> 
> 
> He may tell her how beautiful she is, how he appreciated her reminding him of something, or just that he loves her.
> 
> 
> 
> These kinds of things don't happen when a man doesn't feel good about himself. He will not have anything to share if he is not happy. That does not mean I am suggesting his wife should be giving him sex.
> 
> 
> 
> It means that he needs to put himself first or he will have nothing to give to his wife.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe this to be the reason many marriages start down hill. The husband is trying to please his wife with all he does and loses himself in the process. He tends to look more like a servant to her than an equal. What woman wants to marry a servant?
> 
> 
> 
> Don't most women want a man with his own thoughts and desires, who is loving and kind in ways that show her she is important to him? I don't see how he can do that if he isn't happy within himself...first.
> 
> 
> 
> I also don't mean that he should neglect his responsibilities or his wife to gain self-respect and be proud of himself and happy. He needs to work those things into their lives, without being gone all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> However, if he has in his mind that he is doing housework, chores and it's all so that his wife can feel like he loves her, he is doing it for nothing. He needs to actually love himself and her, then what he does will be less like work.
> 
> 
> 
> The work he thinks he is doing to please her and get sex will seem worthless when she decides she isn't in the mood when he is. Remember, she doesn't have to be in the mood.
> 
> 
> 
> When that happens, and it will, he will wonder if what he is getting is worth the work and may resent her and stop doing as much.
> 
> 
> 
> If he is doing the work for his benefit, and sex is not possible for some reason, he likely won't get resentful. He will be happy to have done things to keep his home and his appearance nice.
> 
> 
> 
> Does that help you to understand why I think the list is pretty good, yet the reason for doing those things was dubious? Below is the quote and here is the part that made me think about it a bit more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't first see to your own happiness, not including sex, how will you have true desire to treat her with the loving kindness? You won't, if you feel like you have to give from a place of subservience and barter.




Wow you wrote that beautifully!! Well done. 


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## PieceOfSky

I don't understand why we haven't heard what your wife has told you the reason is, or what your own thoughtful assessment of the possibilities is. I don't understand why you apparently assume there is a singular reason, or have reached the conclusion that it is common When it happens, it can happen for dozens if not hundreds of very different reasons. And once it starts, the reasons that began the misery may be replaced by other reasons, especially if your relation deteriorates in other ways. 

Your post is vague enough and filled with easy marks, I have my doubts. Maybe wishful thinking on my part.

Anyways, one thing that is rarely mentioned here on TAM is sexual aversion as described by Dr. Harley here: How to Overcome Sexual Aversion The most urgent thing to learn from that article is -- if sexual aversion is part of the problem -- you can easily make it worse.

The risk of asking here is you will not get a thorough listing of the possibilities, but only the possibilities that seem most like to individuals here based upon personal experiences with the problem, or an absence of experience with the problem, and all affected by various personal biases. Another risk is you will find comfort commiserating with others in a way that would easy to put the blame on her -- and that will get you nowhere. Another risk is those who seek to blame you will be effective, and as a result you may end up owning too much of the blame -- which will also get you nowhere.

The risk of asking her is that she may not really know, or is so uncomfortable with her lack of interest in you she will suppress awareness of the truth. If you make it hard for her to tell you an uncomfortable truth, she will never tell you. The risk of seeking solutions "with her" is that she may actually,be more comfortable having the disconnect between you than not, and though on the surface may work with you to find answers, yet simulataneously and unconsiciously sabotage your efforts.

In short, from my limited experience and biased perspective, the problem in your marriage is immense. You can only change you, and learn to be happy whether she wants to be intimate with you or not. The only chance you have at happiness and contentment is if you are willing to be yourself whether that enhances desire in her or extenguishes it. In any case, you will need to develop self-worth to an extent you feel entitled to a fulfilled life, and to the extent you'd be willing to walk away if time shows your wife remains unable or unwilling to have the sort of relationship you desire.

Good luck.


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## jld

jack_medley said:


> Not that I know of.
> 
> The only thing I can think of is that I work too much and that's why she's giving me the cold shoulder. I ask her what's wrong and she just says "I'm not in the mood".
> 
> She's never in the mood. I didn't do anything wrong other than trying to provide for my family.


That is clearly not the problem. She probably hears the resentment therein, though. And it's a turn off.

You have to take responsibility for getting her in the mood, which requires more than just bringing in money. You need to listen to her, really show empathy for what her days are like. Without that emotional connection, she is unlikely to want a physical connection.

And whoever suggested turning off the TV is right on!

Jack, my husband is gone most of the time. He works in another city and has an apartment there. He also travels internationally, sometimes gone for two weeks at a time.

Yet we are close, both emotionally and, when he is here, physically. Why is that?

Because he attunes himself to me. Not I attune to him, not we attune to each other. *He* attunes to *me.*

He meets my needs first. He seeks out and listens to my thoughts and feelings first. He makes me feel respected and valued and loved first.

And because he does all of that for me, I naturally respond with love and affection for him.

But it all starts with *him,* Jack.


----------



## john117

no name said:


> Wow you wrote that beautifully!! Well done.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Except that it only works in the milder cases. In my experience after years on TAM the milder cases tend to resolve quickly. The hardest cases can't and won't be resolved this way, regardless of how chiseled the guys abs are or how many stars wirth he cooks.

Past a certain point sex (and overall respect) is a control / power issue far more than it is a desire (or other personality) issue. It would be nice for someone to actually think this thru first rather than embark in a pointless quest especially as time goes by.

Some people resent because of jealousy, unfulfilled expectations, unrealistic expectations, external factors, and so on. No matter how many dishes you wash it'll never be enough.


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## MJJEAN

Just making sure everyone knows where I am coming from, I am a SAHM. This woman is staying at home to take care of ONE child. A SCHOOL AGED child, at that. Frankly, unless said child is special needs, it's not that freakin hard. 

How about something along the lines of "Wife, marriage is a sexual relationship by it's very nature. Since you have decided you no longer want to have a healthy, active, sex life with me, I have realized it's time to end the sham our marriage has become. You should probably seek employment while our child is in school, because you'll need to be able to support yourself once the divorce is final."?


----------



## nirvana

jb02157 said:


> I think they do that to get their way, probably thinking if they take away sex from the marriage then you will do what ever they say. My wife does this to, although she's the one who gained all the weight and I should be repulsed by her touch. I'm used to being married to a refuser, I don't want anything from her anyway.


This seems to be the right answer. A lot of women realize that the 'sex' chip is in their hands and men are weaker on this. Once their quota of making babies is complete, then the urge for sex is much reduced. For men, this is not the case, but most men find it hard to cheat.

The women then begin to dole out sex only occasionally and use that as a negotiation device. You take me out, you buy me this or that, and then I might feel like having sex with you. 

If you noticed, it is portrayed to be the man's fault again. This is a common theme today. It's always the man's fault whether he wants less sex or his wife wants less.

I told my wife the other day that it is now her turn to 'woo' me and do nice things for me as my wife and lover. I have been doing everything and there is no reciprocation from her side.

And I don't believe the myth that men are equally likely to not want sex. That does not make sense. Seems very politically correct. Just like our Government saying "Hindus, Christians and Jews are equally likely to commit terrorism as Muslims". Ah come on.


----------



## Tron

jack_medley said:


> The only thing I can think of is that I work too much and that's why she's giving me the cold shoulder. I ask her what's wrong and she just says "I'm not in the mood".


Next time get up and just simply respond "you might want to get in the mood or I will find someone else who will." Then get up and go to the gym. No discussion. No bull$hit.

Let it sit for a while.

I realize it sounds harsh, but it is what it is. You only have to deal with it for as long as you are willing to put up with it. And at the end of the day it is your choice to stay or leave.


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## john117

Depending on where they live the above could be rather risky. Wife's cousin said it as well, wife gave a hall pass, then proceeded to hire a PI and nailed his sorry behind.


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## jorgegene

john117 said:


> Except that it only works in the milder cases. In my experience after years on TAM the milder cases tend to resolve quickly. The hardest cases can't and won't be resolved this way, regardless of how chiseled the guys abs are or how many stars wirth he cooks.
> 
> Past a certain point sex (and overall respect) is a control / power issue far more than it is a desire (or other personality) issue. It would be nice for someone to actually think this thru first rather than embark in a pointless quest especially as time goes by.
> 
> Some people resent because of jealousy, unfulfilled expectations, unrealistic expectations, external factors, and so on. No matter how many dishes you wash it'll never be enough.


in the end, it usually comes down to finding/marrying the right person.

unfortunately for some, fortunately for others

that doesn't help in the situations we find ourselves in, but i think it's a truth that can't be ignored.


----------



## 2ntnuf

john117 said:


> Except that it only works in the milder cases. In my experience after years on TAM the milder cases tend to resolve quickly. The hardest cases can't and won't be resolved this way, regardless of how chiseled the guys abs are or how many stars wirth he cooks.
> 
> Past a certain point sex (and overall respect) is a control / power issue far more than it is a desire (or other personality) issue. It would be nice for someone to actually think this thru first rather than embark in a pointless quest especially as time goes by.
> 
> Some people resent because of jealousy, unfulfilled expectations, unrealistic expectations, external factors, and so on. No matter how many dishes you wash it'll never be enough.


John, where did I say a husband should wash dishes in search of sex, love or respect from his wife? Where did I say he should do anything like that with the idea that he is bartering for something? That's a covert contract and very bad for a marital relationship. 

Obviously, there is no one answer to fit all situations. 

No one can predict with certainty, how she will respond to all of that. 

What the ideas in my post will do is help the husband to feel better about himself and want to give, listen to, work with his wife. If she doesn't want to, it's time to take the next step. My thoughts are counseling and then separation and divorce if the counseling doesn't work. By that time, he will have a life of his own. He will respect, love and take care of himself and be ready for the next step in his life.


----------



## nirvana

It's amazing how hard it is for men today to get reasonable sex with their own wives. All those hoops to jump through, all those checklists with 100s of items to cross off, all those requirements to fulfill. In all cases it is deemed to be the man's fault that he is not doing something that makes the wife want to have sex.
No wonder so many men are looking to cheat.


----------



## 2ntnuf

nirvana said:


> It's amazing how hard it is for men today to get reasonable sex with their own wives. All those hoops to jump through, all those checklists with 100s of items to cross off, all those requirements to fulfill. In all cases it is deemed to be the man's fault that he is not doing something that makes the wife want to have sex.
> No wonder so many men are looking to cheat.


I agree. It's ridiculous and shameful for a man to find himself doing everything in his free time just to attempt to get sex. 

That's why I posted that a man needs to do those things for himself. If he cares about himself and how he lives, he will automatically do those things. He will likely check off things on her list that she wishes he would do. And, he didn't even do any of it to get sex. He did it to take responsibility for how he lives and to feel good about himself for those efforts. 

She may respect and appreciate him a little for what he has done. He won't care all that much because he didn't do it for her in the first place, which will make him look stronger, when all he is doing is taking care of himself and thereby her. 

If she doesn't appreciate him, there is likely another issue.


----------



## COguy

I'm going to be harsh here because I've seen these ridiculous comments from women for so long that completely fly in the face of logic.

How many times have we seen on this board a sexless marriage, and the advice from the girls is "be more emotionally available, she's feeling like a sex object, comfort her more and worry about her needs more." From guys who would literally do anything in the world to please their wives.

And then, out of nowhere, she ends up moving out to an apartment so she can have 3somes with grocery clerks.

I know a women from my neighborhood who spouted this bullcrap to her friends, and then literally got into a fling with a series of male strippers.


Sorry but please do not buy into the bullcrap that the way into your woman's pants is through placating to her emotional desires. If that was true, then she would technically be her horniest 10 years after marriage when you cared about her the most as opposed to after the 4th date while you were still playing the field with half a dozen other girls.

The reason wives stop being attracted to their husbands is that their husbands stop being attractive. Make a list of all the things that attract women (listen to their actions not their words):

1. Confidence
2. Deciveness
3. Having passion
4. Drive
5. Meeting goals
6. Physical appearance
7. Being attractive to other women

Chances are after a few years in marriage you are royally failing in most of those departments.

At a certain point you begin doubting yourself and then ultimately begging your wife for sex. You have no social life outside of her. You have no options. You've stopped caring about your appearance. Dejected, with no options, you couldn't cheat if you wanted to. You've created the ultimate unattractive leech, with no prospects, slobbering for his monthly sex.

I'm repulsed just writing it.

MMSP basically lays this out. Take back your life in those areas. Establish goals and work towards them. Improve your physical appearance. As your confidence improves and people around you start being more attracted to you, your wife will too. And if she completely misses her cue, you're going to realize that there's other women out there who would be lucky to have you. The Bachelor effect....

PS - If emotions were so important, how come I've never met a bonafide A*hole who had a problem with sex with his wife. The biggest jerks I know seem to get the most sex from their wives. Even after cheating multiple times. How's that for emotional needs being met?


----------



## ButtPunch

COguy said:


> I'm going to be harsh here because I've seen these ridiculous comments from women for so long that completely fly in the face of logic.
> 
> How many times have we seen on this board a sexless marriage, and the advice from the girls is "be more emotionally available, she's feeling like a sex object, comfort her more and worry about her needs more." From guys who would literally do anything in the world to please their wives.
> 
> And then, out of nowhere, she ends up moving out to an apartment so she can have 3somes with grocery clerks.
> 
> I know a women from my neighborhood who spouted this bullcrap to her friends, and then literally got into a fling with a series of male strippers.
> 
> 
> Sorry but please do not buy into the bullcrap that the way into your woman's pants is through placating to her emotional desires. If that was true, then she would technically be her horniest 10 years after marriage when you cared about her the most as opposed to after the 4th date while you were still playing the field with half a dozen other girls.
> 
> The reason wives stop being attracted to their husbands is that their husbands stop being attractive. Make a list of all the things that attract women (listen to their actions not their words):
> 
> 1. Confidence
> 2. Deciveness
> 3. Having passion
> 4. Drive
> 5. Meeting goals
> 6. Physical appearance
> 7. Being attractive to other women
> 
> Chances are after a few years in marriage you are royally failing in most of those departments.
> 
> At a certain point you begin doubting yourself and then ultimately begging your wife for sex. You have no social life outside of her. You have no options. You've stopped caring about your appearance. Dejected, with no options, you couldn't cheat if you wanted to. You've created the ultimate unattractive leech, with no prospects, slobbering for his monthly sex.
> 
> I'm repulsed just writing it.
> 
> MMSP basically lays this out. Take back your life in those areas. Establish goals and work towards them. Improve your physical appearance. As your confidence improves and people around you start being more attracted to you, your wife will to. And if she completely misses her queue, you're going to realize that there's other women out there who would be lucky to have you. The Bachelor effect....
> 
> PS - If emotions were so important, how come I've never met a bonafide ******* who had a problem with sex with his wife. The biggest jerks I know seem to get the most sex from their wives. Even after cheating multiple times. How's that for emotional needs being met?


In case you missed it the first time


----------



## john117

2ntnuf said:


> John, where did I say a husband should wash dishes in search of sex, love or respect from his wife? Where did I say he should do anything like that with the idea that he is bartering for something? That's a covert contract and very bad for a marital relationship.


Well, the actions are the same as what you described earlier, and the intent - for him or for her - is a moot point...



2ntnuf said:


> If he values himself, he will want to take care of his home, it's cleanliness, his hygiene, his physical appearance for his own well-being.
> 
> If he is doing those things, he's got half that list done and he's not doing it for her, but she gets some of the fruits of his labor.
> 
> Her pride in him goes up.
> 
> She respects him for taking responsibility for himself.


Her pride in him.... Lolz. 

It's way too simplistic. Take the easy case of paying her a complement. Some will interpret it as such, some will think covert contract, some will ignore it. That's understandable and expected.

What won't generally happen is that her view of why it happens will change. That's because her interpretation of why it happens is based on deep beliefs that can't be easily explained away (reference self preservation neurons) or changed, or because of out of scope conditions ie external stress, FOO, CSA...

If the resentment is high enough, anything he does will not only be NOT appreciated, it will not even count for anything.


----------



## jb02157

COguy said:


> The reason wives stop being attracted to their husbands is that their husbands stop being attractive. Make a list of all the things that attract women (listen to their actions not their words):
> 
> 1. Confidence
> 2. Decisiveness
> 3. Having passion
> 4. Drive
> 5. Meeting goals
> 6. Physical appearance
> 7. Being attractive to other women


I agree with your whole post, however, your list has one glaring mistake in it. The absolute #1 thing that attracts women is

MONEY

The one thing that causes the most arguments in a marriage is money. If a guy can supply his wife/girlfriend with an unending supply of money there would be no problems. To get their men to spend money on them or on what they want, they use sex as a means of control.


----------



## pidge70

For me, it's all about the resentment. It's hard to get past, especially when you really don't give a sh!t anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

jb02157 said:


> I agree with your whole post, however, your list has one glaring mistake in it. The absolute #1 thing that attracts women is
> 
> MONEY
> 
> The one thing that causes the most arguments in a marriage is money. If a guy can supply his wife/girlfriend with an unending supply of money there would be no problems. To get their men to spend money on them or on what they want, they use sex as a means of control.


Ew. Who wants to live like that? I can make my own money, thank you very much.


----------



## Lila

jack_medley said:


> Not that I know of.
> 
> The only thing I can think of is that I work too much and that's why she's giving me the cold shoulder. I ask her what's wrong and she just says "I'm not in the mood".
> 
> She's never in the mood. *I didn't do anything wrong other than trying to provide for my family*.


Providing for your family does not mean you spend all your time chasing the almighty dollar. It means you, as the leader in the marriage, make the tough decisions on what's best for your family. Unless you're a minimum wage employee, working 80 hours a week IS NOT what's best for your family. If you want to keep it intact, spending time with your family IS what's best for your family. 

Determine what a 40 hour work week can afford you and set up a budget for it. Will you have to downsize your home and or lifestyle? Yep, but then that's the price to having a SAHP at your income. 

Some will argue that your wife will get pis$ed and leave you if you downsize. Well, she's already pi$$ed and you're literally working yourself out of the relationship. If it ain't working, try something else. 

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## Anon1111

COguy said:


> I'm going to be harsh here because I've seen these ridiculous comments from women for so long that completely fly in the face of logic.
> 
> How many times have we seen on this board a sexless marriage, and the advice from the girls is "be more emotionally available, she's feeling like a sex object, comfort her more and worry about her needs more." From guys who would literally do anything in the world to please their wives.
> 
> And then, out of nowhere, she ends up moving out to an apartment so she can have 3somes with grocery clerks.
> 
> I know a women from my neighborhood who spouted this bullcrap to her friends, and then literally got into a fling with a series of male strippers.
> 
> 
> Sorry but please do not buy into the bullcrap that the way into your woman's pants is through placating to her emotional desires. If that was true, then she would technically be her horniest 10 years after marriage when you cared about her the most as opposed to after the 4th date while you were still playing the field with half a dozen other girls.
> 
> The reason wives stop being attracted to their husbands is that their husbands stop being attractive. Make a list of all the things that attract women (listen to their actions not their words):
> 
> 1. Confidence
> 2. Deciveness
> 3. Having passion
> 4. Drive
> 5. Meeting goals
> 6. Physical appearance
> 7. Being attractive to other women
> 
> Chances are after a few years in marriage you are royally failing in most of those departments.
> 
> At a certain point you begin doubting yourself and then ultimately begging your wife for sex. You have no social life outside of her. You have no options. You've stopped caring about your appearance. Dejected, with no options, you couldn't cheat if you wanted to. You've created the ultimate unattractive leech, with no prospects, slobbering for his monthly sex.
> 
> I'm repulsed just writing it.
> 
> MMSP basically lays this out. Take back your life in those areas. Establish goals and work towards them. Improve your physical appearance. As your confidence improves and people around you start being more attracted to you, your wife will too. And if she completely misses her cue, you're going to realize that there's other women out there who would be lucky to have you. The Bachelor effect....
> 
> PS - If emotions were so important, how come I've never met a bonafide A*hole who had a problem with sex with his wife. The biggest jerks I know seem to get the most sex from their wives. Even after cheating multiple times. How's that for emotional needs being met?



you can debate some of the nuances of this but it's hard to argue with the overall point


----------



## COguy

jb02157 said:


> MONEY
> 
> The one thing that causes the most arguments in a marriage is money. If a guy can supply his wife/girlfriend with an unending supply of money there would be no problems. To get their men to spend money on them or on what they want, they use sex as a means of control.


That's so wrong. Because there are plenty of guys with tons of money that never get sex from their wives.

It would be no different than you trying to be attracted to a rich grandma. Rich guys are attractive to women because the money represents power and prestige, it's a symbol of other good qualities.

There are guys who are broke that get the same level of action, look at Navy Seals...

Just having money in itself is not attractive. Though it will still get you used by women (just like a women can be used for her money).


----------



## 2ntnuf

john117 said:


> Well, the actions are the same as what you described earlier, and the intent - for him or for her - is a moot point...
> 
> 
> 
> Her pride in him.... Lolz.
> 
> It's way too simplistic. Take the easy case of paying her a complement. Some will interpret it as such, some will think covert contract, some will ignore it. That's understandable and expected.
> 
> What won't generally happen is that her view of why it happens will change. That's because her interpretation of why it happens is based on deep beliefs that can't be easily explained away (reference self preservation neurons) or changed, or because of out of scope conditions ie external stress, FOO, CSA...
> 
> If the resentment is high enough, anything he does will not only be NOT appreciated, it will not even count for anything.


Okay, John. I see we are at laugerheads. This won't work with your wife. It won't get her to love you. She can't. She is broken. 

I bet you do many things around the home. I bet you do them for your own reasons and not to get sex, because you know you won't no matter what. What you do, doesn't repulse her so much that she divorces you. 

Your issue is you want to lessen the impact of divorce. It's your choice to stay or leave. You have chosen to suffer until the timing is right for you. 

Nothing will change your situation, except divorce. I just don't understand when you complain about suggestions like everyone's situation is like yours. They aren't.


----------



## no name

COguy said:


> I'm going to be harsh here because I've seen these ridiculous comments from women for so long that completely fly in the face of logic.
> 
> How many times have we seen on this board a sexless marriage, and the advice from the girls is "be more emotionally available, she's feeling like a sex object, comfort her more and worry about her needs more." From guys who would literally do anything in the world to please their wives.
> 
> And then, out of nowhere, she ends up moving out to an apartment so she can have 3somes with grocery clerks.
> 
> I know a women from my neighborhood who spouted this bullcrap to her friends, and then literally got into a fling with a series of male strippers.
> 
> 
> Sorry but please do not buy into the bullcrap that the way into your woman's pants is through placating to her emotional desires. If that was true, then she would technically be her horniest 10 years after marriage when you cared about her the most as opposed to after the 4th date while you were still playing the field with half a dozen other girls.
> 
> The reason wives stop being attracted to their husbands is that their husbands stop being attractive. Make a list of all the things that attract women (listen to their actions not their words):
> 
> 1. Confidence
> 2. Deciveness
> 3. Having passion
> 4. Drive
> 5. Meeting goals
> 6. Physical appearance
> 7. Being attractive to other women
> 
> Chances are after a few years in marriage you are royally failing in most of those departments.
> 
> At a certain point you begin doubting yourself and then ultimately begging your wife for sex. You have no social life outside of her. You have no options. You've stopped caring about your appearance. Dejected, with no options, you couldn't cheat if you wanted to. You've created the ultimate unattractive leech, with no prospects, slobbering for his monthly sex.
> 
> I'm repulsed just writing it.
> 
> MMSP basically lays this out. Take back your life in those areas. Establish goals and work towards them. Improve your physical appearance. As your confidence improves and people around you start being more attracted to you, your wife will too. And if she completely misses her cue, you're going to realize that there's other women out there who would be lucky to have you. The Bachelor effect....
> 
> PS - If emotions were so important, how come I've never met a bonafide A*hole who had a problem with sex with his wife. The biggest jerks I know seem to get the most sex from their wives. Even after cheating multiple times. How's that for emotional needs being met?




Hello! Woman's input here. I agree with the most what you said except the sex object part . If a woman does feel like this it's more a turn off. Getting ' rewarded' for being nice and doing chores for your wife if a reason a woman would feel like one. A man and woman should just do chores and be and do nice things b/c they love each other and that they are a team, that chores just need to be done , all of this with out any expectations of a sexual reward. Once a man starts using all this for a reward then you hence are shifting an imbalance of power towards the woman , being able to hold this against him to make him do stuff and get her own way. It's a real turn off for a woman . One that I DONT do to my hubby, it's manipulative. Anyways thought I'd clear that up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tron

jb02157 said:


> I agree with your whole post, however, your list has one glaring mistake in it. The absolute #1 thing that attracts women is
> 
> MONEY
> 
> The one thing that causes the most arguments in a marriage is money. If a guy can supply his wife/girlfriend with an unending supply of money there would be no problems. To get their men to spend money on them or on what they want, they use sex as a means of control.


I don't know...Nirvana seems to be swimming in it these days and it hasn't seemed to help his sex life out much.


----------



## Tron

COguy said:


> I'm going to be harsh here because I've seen these ridiculous comments from women for so long that completely fly in the face of logic.
> 
> How many times have we seen on this board a sexless marriage, and the advice from the girls is "be more emotionally available, she's feeling like a sex object, comfort her more and worry about her needs more." From guys who would literally do anything in the world to please their wives.
> 
> And then, out of nowhere, she ends up moving out to an apartment so she can have 3somes with grocery clerks.
> 
> I know a women from my neighborhood who spouted this bullcrap to her friends, and then literally got into a fling with a series of male strippers.
> 
> 
> Sorry but please do not buy into the bullcrap that the way into your woman's pants is through placating to her emotional desires. If that was true, then she would technically be her horniest 10 years after marriage when you cared about her the most as opposed to after the 4th date while you were still playing the field with half a dozen other girls.
> 
> The reason wives stop being attracted to their husbands is that their husbands stop being attractive. Make a list of all the things that attract women (listen to their actions not their words):
> 
> 1. Confidence
> 2. Deciveness
> 3. Having passion
> 4. Drive
> 5. Meeting goals
> 6. Physical appearance
> 7. Being attractive to other women
> 
> Chances are after a few years in marriage you are royally failing in most of those departments.
> 
> At a certain point you begin doubting yourself and then ultimately begging your wife for sex. You have no social life outside of her. You have no options. You've stopped caring about your appearance. Dejected, with no options, you couldn't cheat if you wanted to. You've created the ultimate unattractive leech, with no prospects, slobbering for his monthly sex.
> 
> I'm repulsed just writing it.
> 
> MMSP basically lays this out. Take back your life in those areas. Establish goals and work towards them. Improve your physical appearance. As your confidence improves and people around you start being more attracted to you, your wife will too. And if she completely misses her cue, you're going to realize that there's other women out there who would be lucky to have you. The Bachelor effect....
> 
> PS - If emotions were so important, how come I've never met a bonafide A*hole who had a problem with sex with his wife. The biggest jerks I know seem to get the most sex from their wives. Even after cheating multiple times. How's that for emotional needs being met?












Who is this new COguy? Not the same co-dependent we were talking to 2 years ago! Lovin' it!


----------



## COguy

Tron said:


> Who is this new COguy? Not the same co-dependent we were talking to 2 years ago! Lovin' it!


I see the light but man I still struggle. Step 1 awareness. Step 2 fixing it...

Part of codependency is being able to spot other people's problems really easily, so that's natural for me. But yeah I'm going to spend my new single time really focusing on trying to get out of this bull**** trap. I've seen the results of what happens when you stop being a "nice guy" and it was pretty great. It's the long game that's tough.


----------



## COguy

no name said:


> Hello! Woman's input here. I agree with the most what you said except the sex object part . If a woman does feel like this it's more a turn off. Getting ' rewarded' for being nice and doing chores for your wife if a reason a woman would feel like one. A man and woman should just do chores and be and do nice things b/c they love each other and that they are a team, that chores just need to be done , all of this with out any expectations of a sexual reward. Once a man starts using all this for a reward then you hence are shifting an imbalance of power towards the woman , being able to hold this against him to make him do stuff and get her own way. It's a real turn off for a woman . One that I DONT do to my hubby, it's manipulative. Anyways thought I'd clear that up.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fair point but a woman married to a guy who exhibited those qualities would never view herself as the victim of sex objectification. When a woman is with a man who is confident and decisive and driven, good looking; she will WANT to have sex and might even want to be treated like a sex object. How many women that get into 50 shades of grey fantasies and get turned on by Magic Mike complain about being treated like a sex object at home?

Another example: You're at the bar and an dude in sweatpants and a wife beater feels the fabric of your shirt. EWwwwwwwww what a total perv leave me alone that's harassment! 5 minutes later Brad Pitt walks in and feels the fabric of your shirt. OMG I'm so hot right now!!!

Same action, different levels of value, different results.


----------



## steve_in_FL

I've been married to her for almost twenty years and she STILL puts on defensive moves when my hands are 'going for the gold'. I think it's wired into her.It might be with most women.Except for women like Kardashian etc... But 'repulsion' doesn't apply with us. That's a horse of a different color that needs to be understood why it's happening.


----------



## MattMatt

> Why Do Married Women Eventually Become Repulsed By Their Husbands Touch?


Generally speaking, they don't.

Unless, of course, something has happened that causes them to be repulsed?

Might not even be the fault of the husband. He might be a stand-in for all malekind.


----------



## ABHale

OP are you sure she is not getting her needs meet somewhere else?

Also jlb blames the husband for everything. Take what she says with a grain of salt.


----------



## john117

COguy said:


> That's so wrong. Because there are plenty of guys with tons of money that never get sex from their wives.
> 
> It would be no different than you trying to be attracted to a rich grandma. Rich guys are attractive to women because the money represents power and prestige, it's a symbol of other good qualities.
> 
> There are guys who are broke that get the same level of action, look at Navy Seals...
> 
> Just having money in itself is not attractive. Though it will still get you used by women (just like a women can be used for her money).


I live in a McMansion subdivision where 90℅ or more of the houses are occupied by families where the guy is an executive (per neighborhood directory) and the gal is a SAHM. 

I agree with the money part... Only divorces are husband trading in for a newer model or infidelity... 

I'm not implying its all money based 100℅ but the divorce rate here is like 3 in a 100. When I lived in a proletariat subdivision it was ten times that... At least.

Money helps. Few women will throw away a McMansion, domestic help, private school for the kids, expensive SUV, trips galore, etc by playing the "resentful LD wife" card.


----------



## john117

2ntnuf said:


> Okay, John. I see we are at laugerheads. This won't work with your wife. It won't get her to love you. She can't. She is broken.
> 
> I bet you do many things around the home. I bet you do them for your own reasons and not to get sex, because you know you won't no matter what. What you do, doesn't repulse her so much that she divorces you.
> 
> Your issue is you want to lessen the impact of divorce. It's your choice to stay or leave. You have chosen to suffer until the timing is right for you.
> 
> Nothing will change your situation, except divorce. I just don't understand when you complain about suggestions like everyone's situation is like yours. They aren't.


Read carefully... The reasons aren't necessarily the same as mine, but the end result - hardcore LD - is pretty much the same. 

One can break their arm in a variety of accidents, but the end result is a broken arm every time. 

Think of it in terms of oncology. One is benign, the doe eyed but harried SAHM busy with kids or the equally harried working mom who "neglects" hubby because she's busy versus the hardcore LD that has shut down sexually, the malignant one. It's treatable, but treating a benign cyst is a heck of a lot less involved than treating a malignancy. 

Telling the two apart isn't necessarily difficult.


----------



## no name

COguy said:


> Fair point but a woman married to a guy who exhibited those qualities would never view herself as the victim of sex objectification. When a woman is with a man who is confident and decisive and driven, good looking; she will WANT to have sex and might even want to be treated like a sex object. How many women that get into 50 shades of grey fantasies and get turned on by Magic Mike complain about being treated like a sex object at home?
> 
> 
> 
> Another example: You're at the bar and an dude in sweatpants and a wife beater feels the fabric of your shirt. EWwwwwwwww what a total perv leave me alone that's harassment! 5 minutes later Brad Pitt walks in and feels the fabric of your shirt. OMG I'm so hot right now!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Same action, different levels of value, different results.




As a woman, I would feel like an ' object ' if I was with a man that had those qualities though ( only being nice to get a reward) and wouldn't like that at all. It's Safe to say that I am not with a man like that. My hubby is all
those things you described ( confident, driven etc) but I don't as a woman want to be treated as a sx object regardless, thus I also think a majority of women would be the same. In regards to 50 shades... There are also women not in to it. So I would have to disagree with your points, but thank you for the different point of view. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jsmart

jack_medley said:


> - We've been married 12 years
> 
> - I'm 42 and my wife is 33
> 
> - *We have one daughter who's 8*
> 
> - That's a tough one. *I have a crappy factory job and work close to 80 hours a week. She's a stay-at-home mom.* We don't have a ton of alone time together but once a week we'll snuggle up and watch some netflix together for a few hours. It doesn't actually lead to any sex though (she'll always say she's not in the mood)


You working 80 hours while she's being a SAHM is the problem. Unless she's homeschooling, she should be working contributing to the household income so you don't have to work so hard. 

I'm concerned that her actions are of someone that's attached to another man. If that's the case, it would explain her repulsion to your touch. Adulterous wives become faithful to their new man. 

If there's a chance that she's being faithful, then she might start once she goes back to work world. Her being so detached from you is a recipe for disaster. I've noticed a trend of SAHMs that immediately jump into wanton affairs with the first guy that gives them attention when they enter the workforce.

Either way, she needs to get back to work, so you can scale back the amount of hours you have to work. Besides, if you end up divorcing, you'll be screwed in the courts.


----------



## Personal

...


----------



## john117

Personal said:


> I don't have a checklist of anything and I don't jump through any hoops in order to...
> 
> Oh never mind, my experience is vastly different from yours and what you describe.
> 
> If only you understood that this is a personality and behaviour issue rather than a gender issue you would be better placed to experience a more fruitful sex life.


Personality and behavior are influenced by many external factors which are ultimately influenced by gender... Say, culture, FOO...


----------



## jerry123

jld said:


> That is clearly not the problem. She probably hears the resentment therein, though. And it's a turn off.
> 
> You have to take responsibility for getting her in the mood, which requires more than just bringing in money. You need to listen to her, really show empathy for what her days are like. Without that emotional connection, she is unlikely to want a physical connection.
> 
> And whoever suggested turning off the TV is right on!
> 
> Jack, my husband is gone most of the time. He works in another city and has an apartment there. He also travels internationally, sometimes gone for two weeks at a time.
> 
> Yet we are close, both emotionally and, when he is here, physically. Why is that?
> 
> Because he attunes himself to me. Not I attune to him, not we attune to each other. *He* attunes to *me.*
> 
> He meets my needs first. He seeks out and listens to my thoughts and feelings first. He makes me feel respected and valued and loved first.
> 
> And because he does all of that for me, I naturally respond with love and affection for him.
> 
> But it all starts with *him,* Jack.




Bull sh!t...

In a marriage it's both partners that need to do this. 

So you have respect and affection for him because *He* does all the heavy lifting in the marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

jerry123 said:


> Bull sh!t...
> 
> In a marriage it's both partners that need to do this.
> 
> So you have respect and affection for him because *He* does all the heavy lifting in the marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course. And among other things, like his intelligence and good character.

I am not taking responsibility for this marriage. That is his job, and he knows it. 

And that is why the marriage is good.


----------



## jerry123

jld said:


> Of course. And among other things, like his intelligence and good character.
> 
> I am not taking responsibility for this marriage. That is his job, and he knows it.
> 
> And that is why the marriage is good.




God bless you then...but I'd love to hear your husbands take on this. 


In my marriage, if I did that my wife would feel like a entitled princess. And think the only reason I'm doing that would be to have sex. 

See, wives are not all the same in marriages. Every situation is different. 

As for OP, we don't really know his whole situation. We are getting his view. So in turn he is getting advice based on that. 

My advice to him would be just what one poster stated. 

Work on himself first!! Once he maximizes his sex rank he WILL draw attention from other women. And if that other women does not include his wife, he should make an exit plan because he's in for a world of hurt if he continues on his current path. 

I do agree he should do some investigating on possibly his wife having some sort of affair. Don't automatically assume but rule it out. 

With him working 80 hours a week, which is crazy, and her having all that time, there's just too many opportunities for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

jerry123 said:


> God bless you then...but I'd love to hear your husbands take on this.


 @Duguesclin, wanted to make sure you saw this.



> In my marriage, if I did that my wife would feel like a entitled princess. And think the only reason I'm doing that would be to have sex.


You have to have a sense of responsibility overall, a vision for your family. And yes, you have to do the heavy lifting. That's your job. 

As Gottman says, "Men make or break heterosexual relationships."



> See, wives are not all the same in marriages. Every situation is different.
> 
> As for OP, we don't really know his whole situation. We are getting his view. So in turn he is getting advice based on that.
> 
> My advice to him would be just what one poster stated.
> 
> Work on himself first!! Once he maximizes his sex rank he WILL draw attention from other women. And if that other women does not include his wife, he should make an exit plan because he's in for a world of hurt if he continues on his current path.
> 
> I do agree he should do some investigating on possibly his wife having some sort of affair. Don't automatically assume but rule it out.
> 
> With him working 80 hours a week, which is crazy, and her having all that time, there's just too many opportunities for her.


OP, I think anything dependent on making your wife jealous is a risky strategy, likely to backfire if she ever gets confident enough to reject that manipulation and make a life on her own.

Meeting her needs is the best way to keep a strong emotional connection with her. And that strong emotional connection is your best insurance for a happy, faithful marriage.

Are we going to hear more from you, btw? Only 4 posts by you so far.


----------



## jerry123

It's not at all to make his wife jealous. Did not mean for it to come out that way. 

It's to make himself more confident and higher sex rank so if his wife chooses to come along for the ride she can, if not it gets him ready for the next woman in his life to enjoy a fit, confident man who is not repulsed to touch him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jerry123

@jld

I'm all for a guy doing "some" heavy lifting but in OP case I think it would backfire. Christ, he's already working 80 hours a week. He's got to be soooo tired just from that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

I find it kind of telling that when women in arguably working relationships say what works in their relationship the response is "nuh uh."


----------



## jld

Starstarfish said:


> I find it kind of telling that when women in arguably working relationships say what works in their relationship the response is "nuh uh."


No kidding. And under similar conditions, too.


----------



## jerry123

Starstarfish said:


> I find it kind of telling that when women in arguably working relationships say what works in their relationship the response is "nuh uh."


I think she tagged her husband in post above in answer to my statement of wondering his input. 

In my being on this site for so long and reading 1,000's of posts, I can't recall many marriages that work when one spouse is doing 90% of the work to keep marriage happy...that that spouse is truly happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Of course. And among other things, like his intelligence and good character.
> 
> I am not taking responsibility for this marriage. That is his job, and he knows it.
> 
> And that is why the marriage is good.


Sorry, JLD. My wife has likewise not taken responsibility for our marriage, dumping it all on me, and we all know how well that has worked.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Sorry, JLD. My wife has likewise not taken responsibility for our marriage, dumping it all on me, and we all know how well that has worked.


Yep. You did not take it, either. And you keep waiting for her to.

Not gonna happen.


----------



## Rowan

jerry123 said:


> I think she tagged her husband in post above in answer to my statement of wondering his input.
> 
> In my being on this site for so long and reading 1,000's of posts, I can't recall many marriages that work when one spouse is doing 90% of the work to keep marriage happy...that that spouse is truly happy.


It may be clarifying for you to understand that jld and her husband have a relationship that is of a particular type. It's more of a mutually consensual dom-sub dynamic, not just sexually but in all aspects of the relationship as a lifestyle. That is to say, her husband takes full responsibility for the relationship, she basically fulfills a child-like role of no responsibility for the relationship or even her own emotions. All of her advice and comments here come from that perspective. 

It works for them, but it's not a typical partner-style arrangement, and can sometimes rub those interested in a different dynamic the wrong way.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Yep. You did not take it, either. And you keep waiting for her to.
> 
> Not gonna happen.


So, if I haven't taken it and she hasn't taken it either, how are my kids still fed and the house standing? Who decides on what plumber to call, manages four people's medical appointments, pays the bills, and feeds the cat?

I suppose those don't count...


----------



## Mr.StrongMan

jack_medley said:


> Can someone please explain why this happens and why its so common?
> 
> After yet another unsuccessful attempt to seduce my wife, my confidence level is at an all-time low. she literally recoiled in disgust the last time I ran my hand up her thigh. I'm stuck in a sexless marriage and it's driving me crazy...


You're not alone. I'm sorry you're going through this.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> Yep. You did not take it, either. And you keep waiting for her to.
> 
> Not gonna happen.


This is such a load of bullsh!t. Plenty of women know how to be grown ups. Woman <> small child that needs to be lead by her superior husband. Are there things that a man can do to make himself less attractive? Absolutely. But the idea that men have to enact some magical swoonworthiness is crap.


----------



## jld

Rowan said:


> It may be clarifying for you to understand that jld and her husband have a relationship that is of a particular type. It's more of a mutually consensual dom-sub dynamic, not just sexually but in all aspects of the relationship as a lifestyle. That is to say, her husband takes full responsibility for the relationship, she basically fulfills a child-like role of no responsibility for the relationship or even her own emotions. All of her advice and comments here come from that perspective.
> 
> It works for them, but it's not a typical partner-style arrangement, and can sometimes rub those interested in a different dynamic the wrong way.


Rowan, why do you feel you need to give a sort of intro/disclaimer to my marriage?

Just curious.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> So, if I haven't taken it and she hasn't taken it either, how are my kids still fed and the house standing? Who decides on what plumber to call, manages four people's medical appointments, pays the bills, and feeds the cat?
> 
> I suppose those don't count...


It is the emotional needs that I have told him to address, John. And you have been told in other threads to address them, too.


----------



## jerry123

Rowan said:


> It may be clarifying for you to understand that jld and her husband have a relationship that is of a particular type. It's more of a mutually consensual dom-sub dynamic, not just sexually but in all aspects of the relationship as a lifestyle. That is to say, her husband takes full responsibility for the relationship, she basically fulfills a child-like role of no responsibility for the relationship or even her own emotions. All of her advice and comments here come from that perspective.
> 
> It works for them, but it's not a typical partner-style arrangement, and can sometimes rub those interested in a different dynamic the wrong way.


I figured as much...yup, not for me. But saying that I strongly believe it would backfire on OP. 

And if his wife does what that type of marriage, OP would be in a world of unhappiness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> This is such a load of bullsh!t. Plenty of women know how to be grown ups. Woman <> small child that needs to be lead by her superior husband. Are there things that a man can do to make himself less attractive? Absolutely. But the idea that men have to enact some magical swoonworthiness is crap.


Not sure where you are getting "magical swoonworthiness."

I am telling him to address her emotional needs. Establishing a strong emotional bond could reignite her attraction to him.


----------



## norajane

80 hour workweek, and the only time you spend together is one night in front of the tv. 

I do not see much room for connecting and maintaining passion. Likely, your wife is feeling disconnected from the sexy part of your relationship since there is little emotional, intellectual OR physical connection between you. Without that, your touch is like a stranger's touch. 

I'd start with the job situation - whatever you can do to decrease your hours, even if that means she gets a job, will be helpful so you can spend more time together, go on dates, and bring out the fun part of your relationship again, like when you first met and were dating. Focus on having fun together as a family with your daughter, and as a couple.


----------



## Anon1111

NobodySpecial said:


> This is such a load of bullsh!t. Plenty of women know how to be grown ups. Woman <> small child that needs to be lead by her superior husband. Are there things that a man can do to make himself less attractive? Absolutely. But the idea that men have to enact some magical swoonworthiness is crap.


the other issue here that the "superman" theory fails to contend with is that you can do everything right and the woman still might not be into you

the built in assumption of the superman theory is that it will automatically lead to a peachy relationship and that if you don't have this, then you are not a "superman"

it's a totally circular argument


----------



## jld

norajane said:


> 80 hour workweek, and the only time you spend together is one night in front of the tv.
> 
> *I do not see much room for connecting and maintaining passion. Likely, your wife is feeling disconnected from the sexy part of your relationship since there is little emotional, intellectual OR physical connection between you. Without that, your touch is like a stranger's touch. *
> 
> I'd start with the job situation - whatever you can do to decrease your hours, even if that means she gets a job, will be helpful so you can spend more time together, go on dates, and bring out the fun part of your relationship again, like when you first met and were dating. Focus on having fun together as a family with your daughter, and as a couple.


Thing is, Nora, he did not say she is just unmoved by or indifferent to his touch. He says she is actively repulsed. 

Honestly, I don't know how a woman stays with a man she is truly repelled by. What do you think is keeping her there?


----------



## Livvie

His financial support.


----------



## jerry123

jld said:


> Thing is, Nora, he did not say she is just unmoved by or indifferent to his touch. He says she is actively repulsed.
> 
> Honestly, I don't know how a woman stays with a man she is truly repelled by. What do you think is keeping her there?


I don't know how a man can stay with a wife who is repulsed by his touch. 

If he's overweight, a slob and has bad hygiene... Yes, I can see it. 

But no man who is fit, somewhat attractive and showers daily should ever put up with this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## norajane

jld said:


> Thing is, Nora, he did not say she is just unmoved by or indifferent to his touch. He says she is actively repulsed.
> 
> Honestly, I don't know how a woman stays with a man she is truly repelled by. What do you think is keeping her there?


I don't think she is repelled by him; she isn't connected to him. I think she is a 32 year old woman who spends no time with her 42 year old husband, and they have disconnected. They aren't speaking ANY love languages because they have no time together to do so. They have become near strangers.


----------



## jerry123

Livvie said:


> His financial support.


Bingo!!!


She's a sahm, while he works 80 hours a week. 

Why should she leave. All she has to do is not have sex with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Livvie said:


> His financial support.


Is that enough, though?

Livvie, could you stay with a man for that reason alone, if his touch truly repelled you?

I am not discounting it as a reason, but I think it must be more than that. Maybe her devotion to her kids?


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> It is the emotional needs that I have told him to address, John. And you have been told in other threads to address them, too.


how do you address someone's "emotional needs" when all they want to do is be left alone?

you give them what they ask for but that does not bring you any closer


----------



## jerry123

We really don't know that much of OP's story. 


I think we are all projecting our own life onto this thread. 

Including me...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

jerry123 said:


> We really don't know that much of OP's story.
> 
> 
> I think we are all projecting our own life onto this thread.
> 
> Including me...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I certainly was. The title said "married women" not my wife. So we all just are speculating on what might cause a married woman to feel this way. Without actual info from the OP, it remains speculation.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Woman <> small child that needs to be lead by her superior husband.


I think what confuses me as when women recommend such a thing they are small children, when men make the same suggestion of a more male-centered marriage they are praised as being "commanding" and "Alpha."


----------



## NobodySpecial

Starstarfish said:


> I think what confuses me as when women recommend such a thing they are small children, when men make the same suggestion of a more male-centered marriage they are praised as being "commanding" and "Alpha."


Yah and I generally criticize those as well.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> It is the emotional needs that I have told him to address, John. And you have been told in other threads to address them, too.


It's kind of hard to address the emotional needs of an inanimate object. You've been told that as well but hey, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail...

Even when I bent over backwards to meet her "emotional needs", like mother or sister passing, job issues... Or to meet her non emotional but practical needs like teaching her stuff or running her frequent job seeking campaigns... Or playing mother and father to our children... Nothing changed, no appreciation, nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Try living like this and tell me I haven't met her so called needs. Mega lolz my friend.


----------



## john117

Anon1111 said:


> how do you address someone's "emotional needs" when all they want to do is be left alone?
> 
> you give them what they ask for but that does not bring you any closer


The clue package just arrived


----------



## Anon1111

john117 said:


> Try living like this and tell me I haven't met her so called needs. Mega lolz my friend.


this is the thing

it's like people who have never seen a black swan so they assume it doesn't exist


----------



## jack_medley

norajane said:


> 80 hour workweek, and the only time you spend together is one night in front of the tv.
> 
> I do not see much room for connecting and maintaining passion. Likely, your wife is feeling disconnected from the sexy part of your relationship since there is little emotional, intellectual OR physical connection between you. Without that, your touch is like a stranger's touch.
> 
> I'd start with the job situation - whatever you can do to decrease your hours, even if that means she gets a job, will be helpful so you can spend more time together, go on dates, and bring out the fun part of your relationship again, like when you first met and were dating. Focus on having fun together as a family with your daughter, and as a couple.


Decreasing my work hours is not an option atm. we're not destitute but my family relies on me. We've talked about her working before but I've decided it's best she stay at home and manage the household while our daughter is still young.

The thing is, we get along fine in every other aspect of life. My wife is my best friend and we talk about everything. The only issue is when it comes to sex. Whenever sex is brought up she shuts down.

I just don't understand it.


----------



## Anon1111

the tough thing to consider is that there might not be any "reason" why she is not interested.

you could be with another woman who'd be totally fine with you working 80 hrs a week, for example.

you can try to pin down the reason, but it might be like wack a mole-- every time you address one supposed issue, another excuse is offered.

Obviously, I don't know your situation, but the point is that you shouldn't automatically assume you are somehow f-ing up.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jack_medley said:


> Decreasing my work hours is not an option atm. we're not destitute but my family relies on me. We've talked about her working before but I've decided it's best she stay at home and manage the household while our daughter is still young.
> 
> The thing is, we get along fine in every other aspect of life. My wife is my best friend and we talk about everything. The only issue is when it comes to sex. Whenever sex is brought up she shuts down.
> 
> I just don't understand it.


So I wonder if your sense of touch revulsion is her fearing that every touch is a request for sex? Not saying it is so, just wondering.


----------



## NobodySpecial

So if you have made other threads, I am sorry. I have not seen them. To take this from the realm of why do married women to the realm of how to help you, we need info. Was she always reticent about sex? If not, was there a time when you noticed a decline and an event that might have predicated it? Does she have a religious upbringing? Has she shown any signs of depression? I know this is tough, but do you have ANY time to have fun together?

Hoping for the best outcome for you!


----------



## jerry123

Honestly, the more you talk and complain about the lack of sex, the more lack of sex will happen. 

If I had a dime for every time a "talk about lack of sex" led to more sex story on here worked, I'd have zero money. 

There are phases you need to go through before you discuss the sex thing. Or even not staying in a sexless marriage. 


It's all great you are best friends but a sexless marriage simply does not work unless YOU are ok with it. 

You can never make her attracted to you by talking...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

Anon1111 said:


> how do you address someone's "emotional needs" when all they want to do is be left alone?
> 
> you give them what they ask for but that does not bring you any closer


For me, there are some basic needs that need to be met. Well, only one really. Trust. After that, my emotional needs just don't ramp up my RAAAAWR. His humor, his beautiful body, his attention to my body do. BUT how does a man achieve this dynamic when resistance has been established? She has to be OPEN to the daffy, funny, sexy man thing.

ETA: In the absence of any active love busting or resentment. Resentment kills everything.


----------



## john117

Yet some cultures are inherently untrusting. My wife gave some heirloom silver jewelry to the largest and oldest jewelry store in town for cleaning. She was almost sick that they would steal it or trick her. 

W t f...

This is 100℅ culture. In her country I could see it happen but this is Blue Grass country, not Central Asia


----------



## jb02157

COguy said:


> That's so wrong. Because there are plenty of guys with tons of money that never get sex from their wives.
> 
> It would be no different than you trying to be attracted to a rich grandma. Rich guys are attractive to women because the money represents power and prestige, it's a symbol of other good qualities.
> 
> There are guys who are broke that get the same level of action, look at Navy Seals...
> 
> Just having money in itself is not attractive. Though it will still get you used by women (just like a women can be used for her money).


Having money will get you nowhere, it's spending the money on her or making it available to her is what makes the difference


----------



## EleGirl

Anon1111 said:


> how do you address someone's "emotional needs" when all they want to do is be left alone?
> 
> you give them what they ask for but that does not bring you any closer


He did not say that all she wants is to be left alone.

She's not wanting sex with him right now. But there are a lot of things a couple can do that do not involve sex. There are a lof ot things that they cn do that will rebuild the passion and connection and love in their relationship. Once that is doine, her desire for sex will more than likely return.

When two people spend a lot of quality time together their brain produces and uptakes a lof of feel good chemicals like dopamine, oxytocin, etc. The result is the feeling love, being bonded and wanting sex. 

When they don't spend a lot of quality time together, the brain stops making and uptaking as much of those chemicals. The result is that the passion/love/bond dissipate.

For women in particular this is apparently pretty important because once oxytocin levels drop to a certain low point for a woman, she does not want to be touched by her SO/spouse. It's not because she's a horrible person. It's not because he's unattractive, etc. It's because the chemicals are missing from her body. Humans are chemical engines. Try all you want to get a person feel something, if their body/brain chemicals are not there they are not going to feel it. Basicaly biology folks.

It's not his fault. It's not her fault. Its both of their's fault. And they both have to fix it if they want their marriage to work and want to avoid divorce.

But you see the OP is here on TAM. His wife is not. So he is the only person we can talk to. So we here on TAM are going to give HIM advice on what HE can do to get the passion/connection/love back in his marriage.

How does he do that? He reads Love Busters and His Needs, Her Needs. He does what they say to do. Eventually he gets his wife to read them too and join him in fixing their relationship.

One of the major things that he needs to do is to either stop working 80 hour weeks so that he was the time to spend at least 15 hours a week of quality, date-like, time with his wife... just the two of them.

Or they figure out a way that every house he's at home is spent with her in qulity time until they have the 15 hours a week together. That would mean that she takes care of every other thing in their life to make sure that all of his free time is for the two of them.


----------



## EleGirl

jack_medley said:


> Decreasing my work hours is not an option atm. we're not destitute but my family relies on me. We've talked about her working before but I've decided it's best she stay at home and manage the household while our daughter is still young.
> 
> The thing is, we get along fine in every other aspect of life. My wife is my best friend and we talk about everything. The only issue is when it comes to sex. Whenever sex is brought up she shuts down.
> 
> I just don't understand it.


Do you do thing with her besides talk? Do you go out on dates? Do you two have any interests for hobbies together? Are the children always around when you two talk and do things?

Has she been to a doctor to see if there is a physical reason why she shuts down with sex?


----------



## EleGirl

NobodySpecial said:


> I certainly was. The title said "married women" not my wife. So we all just are speculating on what might cause a married woman to feel this way. Without actual info from the OP, it remains speculation.


That's right. This thread is not about the OP and his wife. It's about married women (not sure if he meant all married women or some).


----------



## Anon1111

"Dietrich Klusmann, a psychologist at the University of Hamburg-Eppendorf in Germany, has provided a glimpse into the bedrooms of longtime couples. His surveys, involving a total of almost 2,500 subjects, comprise one of the few systematic comparisons of female and male desire at progressive stages of committed relationships. He shows women and men in new relationships reporting, on average, more or less equal lust for each other. But for women who’ve been with their partners between one and four years, a dive begins — and continues, leaving male desire far higher. (Within this plunge, there is a notable pattern: over time, women who don’t live with their partners retain their desire much more than women who do.)"

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/unexcited-there-may-be-a-pill-for-that.html?hp&_r=2&


----------



## NobodySpecial

jb02157 said:


> Having money will get you nowhere, it's spending the money on her or making it available to her is what makes the difference


Dude. I don't know your story. But I am not sure I have ever seen a more bitter person.


----------



## jb02157

EleGirl said:


> How does he do that? He reads Love Busters and His Needs, Her Needs. He does what they say to do. Eventually he gets his wife to read them too and join him in fixing their relationship.
> 
> One of the major things that he needs to do is to either stop working 80 hour weeks so that he was the time to spend at least 15 hours a week of quality, date-like, time with his wife... just the two of them.


Why doesn't he just spike her next drink with oxytocin and dopamine?


----------



## EleGirl

Anon1111 said:


> "Dietrich Klusmann, a psychologist at the University of Hamburg-Eppendorf in Germany, has provided a glimpse into the bedrooms of longtime couples. His surveys, involving a total of almost 2,500 subjects, comprise one of the few systematic comparisons of female and male desire at progressive stages of committed relationships. He shows women and men in new relationships reporting, on average, more or less equal lust for each other. But for women who’ve been with their partners between one and four years, a dive begins — and continues, leaving male desire far higher. (Within this plunge, there is a notable pattern: over time, women who don’t live with their partners retain their desire much more than women who do.)"
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/unexcited-there-may-be-a-pill-for-that.html?hp&_r=2&


So now the question would be what causes this.

Perhaps it's that couples who do not live together continue to date. That means that they spend some number of hours weekly together engaged in quality time. In a lot of marriages, that does not happen.... the couples stops 'dating' and get into a rut with jobs, children, chores, etc and forget to date.


----------



## jb02157

NobodySpecial said:


> Dude. I don't know your story. But I am not sure I have ever seen a more bitter person.


Bad marriages tend to do that to folks


----------



## EleGirl

jb02157 said:


> Why doesn't he just spike her next drink with oxytocin and dopamine?


That would be a fix if he could get some in a form that can be used by the brain and not simply digested. But it’s not available in that form.

Now there have been studies done in which couples are given oxytocin via aerosol spray. And guess what, they get that loving feeling back. But it would take a constant dosage to keep that feeling. That’s why it takes daily quality time to keep the levels up.


----------



## jb02157

EleGirl said:


> That would be a fix if he could get some in a form that can be used by the brain and not simply digested. But it’s not available in that form.
> 
> Now there have been studies done in which couples are given oxytocin via aerosol spray. And guess what, they get that loving feeling back. But it would take a constant dosage to keep that feeling. That’s why it takes daily quality time to keep the levels up.


Interesting! Maybe the intravenous route may work?


----------



## Anon1111

EleGirl said:


> So now the question would be what causes this.
> 
> Perhaps it's that couples who do not live together continue to date. That means that they spend some number of hours weekly together engaged in quality time. In a lot of marriages, that does not happen.... the couples stops 'dating' and get into a rut with jobs, children, chores, etc and forget to date.


yeah. the "why" is not clear.

it could be what couples tend to do or not do after they become monogamous and cohabitate

or it could be monogamy and cohabitation _itself _which is inherently unnatural and unstable for the long term

taking cohabitation out of the picture could mean that the couple tends to date more

or it could mean that they are not really monogamous

or it could mean that they do not become overly familiar with one another. 

in any case, it does seem clear that long term monogamy/cohabitation is associated with decreased desire on the part of women particularly


----------



## Married but Happy

Familiarity may not breed contempt, but it may more often breed boredom.

From the article:



> Studies conducted recently are beginning to hint that female eros isn’t in the least programmed for fidelity.
> ...
> But for many women, *the cause of their sexual malaise appears to be monogamy itself*. It is women much more than men who have H.S.D.D., who don’t feel heat for their steady partners.
> ...
> Dietrich Klusmann shows women and men in new relationships reporting, on average, more or less equal lust for each other. But for women who’ve been with their partners between one and four years, a dive begins — and continues, leaving male desire far higher.


You wondered why, @Anon1111 - maybe the bolded is the reason?


----------



## EleGirl

Anon1111 said:


> yeah. the "why" is not clear.
> 
> it could be what couples tend to do or not do after they become monogamous and cohabitate
> 
> or it could be monogamy and cohabitation _itself _which is inherently unnatural and unstable for the long term
> 
> taking cohabitation out of the picture could mean that the couple tends to date more
> 
> or it could mean that they are not really monogamous
> 
> or it could mean that they do not become overly familiar with one another.
> 
> in any case, it does seem clear that long term monogamy/cohabitation is associated with decreased desire on the part of women particularly


One point that is usually overlooked is that men chose to make their marriage sexless as often as women do. The difference is that men usually talk about it when their wives don't want to have sex... because they feel it's their wive's fault. Women tend to not talk about it when their husbands don't want sex because women are taught that it's their fault that their husband does not want sex with them.

About 20% of marriages are sexless, or near sexless, half caused by the male partner.


----------



## Anon1111

EleGirl said:


> One point that is usually overlooked is that men chose to make their marriage sexless as often as women do. The difference is that men usually talk about it when their wives don't want to have sex... because they feel it's their wive's fault. Women tend to not talk about it when their husbands don't want sex because women are taught that it's their fault that their husband does not want sex with them.
> 
> About 20% of marriages are sexless, or near sexless, half caused by the male partner.


is this a fact?

I know this is the conventional wisdom on this board, but this board seems to be an anomaly in this view.


----------



## EleGirl

Anon1111 said:


> yeah. the "why" is not clear.
> 
> it could be what couples tend to do or not do after they become monogamous and cohabitate
> 
> or it could be monogamy and cohabitation _itself _which is inherently unnatural and unstable for the long term
> 
> taking cohabitation out of the picture could mean that the couple tends to date more
> 
> or it could mean that they are not really monogamous
> 
> or it could mean that they do not become overly familiar with one another.
> 
> in any case, it does seem clear that long term monogamy/cohabitation is associated with decreased desire on the part of women particularly


I think that the "why" is very clear whether it's the man or the woman who choses to not have sex with their partner. The underlying 'why' is that people become complacent in marriage. They focus on the daily grind and not on each other.

They don't date. As and the levels of oxytocin, etc, decline the couple becomes angry and resentful towards each other. There are studies that show of this is the result of low oxytocin.

When a couple does not live together, they have to make appointments (dates) to see each other. They tend to put everything else aside to spend time together. Most married couples who experience a decline in sexual desire and marital problems generally do not put time aside time to spend together.


----------



## EleGirl

Anon1111 said:


> is this a fact?
> 
> I know this is the conventional wisdom on this board, but this board seems to be an anomaly in this view.


Yep, it's a fact.

It is seen as an anomaly view because it does not fit the stereo type that we are taught from a very early age... that men are always ready for sex anytime, anywhere. It turns out not to be true as most stereo types. And like most stereotypes, it's hard to break through to the truth.

He's Just Not Up for It Anymore: Why Men Stop Having Sex, and What You Can Do About It


----------



## anonmd

EleGirl said:


> One point that is usually overlooked is that men chose to make their marriage sexless as often as women do. The difference is that men usually talk about it when their wives don't want to have sex... because they feel it's their wive's fault. Women tend to not talk about it when their husbands don't want sex because women are taught that it's their fault that their husband does not want sex with them.
> 
> About 20% of marriages are sexless, or near sexless, half caused by the male partner.


I suspect your statement is true. 

What I want to know is the % of men in relationships which are not technically sexless or even really near sexless (< 10 times a year is not much of a bar) who feel that frequency sucks vs. the % of women in those same marriages or situations.


----------



## Married but Happy

EleGirl said:


> About 20% of marriages are sexless, or near sexless, half caused by the male partner.


The 20% is probably about right, but I don't think half are caused by the male partner.

H.S.D.D. is far more common in women, so I think it's clear that women are more responsible. Note that H.S.D.D. as a diagnosis requires that the woman is unhappy with her low desire, and wants it back - so these women aren't likely to be harboring resentments that would put blame on their husbands.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> Yep, it's a fact.
> 
> It is seen as an anomaly view because it does not fit the stereo type that we are taught from a very early age... that *men are always ready for sex anytime, anywhere.* It turns out not to be true as most stereo types. And like most stereotypes, it's hard to break through to the truth.
> 
> He's Just Not Up for It Anymore: Why Men Stop Having Sex, and What You Can Do About It


Thing is, the bolded has been *exactly* my (albeit limited) experience in life. And when I think about what my mom and sisters, as well as friends, have said, I know I'm not alone in that.

Are the reasons for each sex refusing physical intimacy different? 

I mean, I can see a man refusing because he is impotent. But I can't see a woman refusing because she doesn't think she can orgasm.

Similarly, I can totally understand a woman not wanting to have sex because she does not feel listened to, valued, etc., by her husband. But surely only a very sensitive, emotional man would refuse sex for the same reasons, no?

Well, I just put the book on hold from the library, so will have to see if the book covers all this. Certainly an intriguing topic.


----------



## anonmd

Ridicule, lack of appreciation and / or admiration, depression, job loss, repeated rejection, low T. Those would be my guesses, let us know what the book says...


----------



## EleGirl

Married but Happy said:


> The 20% is probably about right, but I don't think half are caused by the male partner.


I'll go with what studies say, the studies in which men report their lack of desire to have sex with their wives and why they don't want sex with the wife. And those studies show that men chose to make their marriage sexless at the same rate that women do.



Married but Happy said:


> H.S.D.D. is far more common in women, so I think it's clear that women are more responsible. Note that H.S.D.D. as a diagnosis requires that the woman is unhappy with her low desire, and wants it back - so these women aren't likely to be harboring resentments that would put blame on their husbands.


H.S.D.D is only one of the many things that can cause low desire.

It's not the most common reason for a woman not wanting sex with their husband. Most women (and men) who do not want sex with their spouse are not LD. They just do not want sex with their spouse.


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> Thing is, the bolded has been *exactly* my (albeit limited) experience in life. And when I think about what my mom and sisters, as well as friends, have said, I know I'm not alone in that
> 
> 
> Married but Happy said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I dated, sure every guy I dated wanted sex all the time. When I first married, sure my husbands wanted sex all the time. But things changed over time as they do in many marriages. And it is not always the woman who ends up not wanting sex. It's often the man.
> 
> See this is the problem. When women like me talk about the fact that we were in marriages with men who did not want sex, this is the response we get. It's basically calling us liars. And as long as women are hit with this when we try to talk about the topic openly, there will be very few women who talk about it openly.
> 
> And you can bet that few men will ever tell their buddies... "I just don't was sex with my wife anymore." Nope, they will either say nothing or say that it's the wife who does not want sex.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are the reasons for each sex refusing physical intimacy different?
> 
> I mean, I can see a man refusing because he is impotent. But I can't see a woman refusing because she doesn't think she can orgasm.
> 
> Similarly, I can totally understand a woman not wanting to have sex because she does not feel listened to, valued, etc., by her husband. But surely only a very sensitive, emotional man would refuse sex for the same reasons, no?
> 
> Well, I just put the book on hold from the library, so will have to see if the book covers all this. Certainly an intriguing topic.
> 
> 
> 
> All studies on the topic, that I have seen, say that the main reason that both men and women stop wanting sex with their partner is a passive aggressive way to deal with anger and resentment.
> 
> When I first came to TAM and tried to talk about he fact that my husband no longer would have sex, I was laughed at. Most, if not all, the men on TAM replied with things like "well you deserve it, it's about tie ma woman knows what it feels like." and many other very rude remarks. For a long time any woman who came to TAM and dared to talk about her husband making their marriage sexless got similar treatment. So they left. It's only been more recently that the topic can even be discussed here without a woman being attacked for bringing it up. As I said, most women who live with this feel that it's not a safe topic to discuss.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## john117

Anon1111 said:


> is this a fact?
> 
> I know this is the conventional wisdom on this board, but this board seems to be an anomaly in this view.


The numbers for sexual dysfunction disorders do not seem to agree with her when I last looked at it a couple years ago. Also, for men, in some cases there's physical issues that are generally beyond their control (ED) while for women this is not the case.


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> The numbers for sexual dysfunction disorders do not seem to agree with her when I last looked at it a couple years ago. Also, for men, in some cases there's physical issues that are generally beyond their control (ED) while for women this is not the case.


According to the studies of men who chose to make their marriages sexless, it has nothing do with things like ED.


----------



## Anon1111

I definitely think women who are in this situation with men who don't desire them should be heard and respected.

I admit I am skeptical that fully half of sexless marriages would be due to lack of male desire.

I could be wrong, but it does not seem likely to me based my life experience (several of my male friends are also in borderline sexless marriages)


----------



## NotEasy

> That would be a fix if he could get some in a form that can be used by the brain and not simply digested. But it’s not available in that form.
> 
> Now there have been studies done in which couples are given oxytocin via aerosol spray. And guess what, they get that loving feeling back. But it would take a constant dosage to keep that feeling. That’s why it takes daily quality time to keep the levels up.


Scurries off to chem lab, mix up oxytocin and dopamine for aerosol spray. Next off to perfume company, with a perfume that 10 to 20% of men will want to buy their wives. Just need a name and marketing campaign, How do I say "helps in sexless marriages" in a nice way?

Next I conquer the world. Cue evil scientist laugh


----------



## EleGirl

Anon1111 said:


> I definitely think women who are in this situation with men who don't desire them should be heard and respected.
> 
> I admit I am skeptical that fully half of sexless marriages would be due to lack of male desire.
> 
> I could be wrong, but it does not seem likely to me based my life experience (several of my male friends are also in borderline sexless marriages)


The last 7 years of my marriage to my son's father was sexless. He is the one who chose this. He was very vocal about it too. Yet he used to tell his friends that the reason he cheated was that I did not want sex with him. By the time we divorce, he convinced himself that our marriage was sexless because I did not want sex. Yet the only time I ever turned him down for sex was in the few weeks after losing our twins at child birth and being very ill for a while after that. 

What did I learn from that? Just because a guy is telling his friends that it's his wife's choice, well it just might not be the real story.


----------



## Anon1111

EleGirl said:


> The last 7 years of my marriage to my son's father was sexless. He is the one who chose this. He was very vocal about it too. Yet he used to tell his friends that the reason he cheated was that I did not want sex with him. By the time we divorce, he convinced himself that our marriage was sexless because I did not want sex. Yet the only time I ever turned him down for sex was in the few weeks after losing our twins at child birth and being very ill for a while after that.
> 
> What did I learn from that? Just because a guy is telling his friends that it's his wife's choice, well it just might not be the real story.


that sucks, sorry to hear you went through that.


----------



## Married but Happy

EleGirl said:


> I'll go with what studies say, the studies in which men report their lack of desire to have sex with their wives and why they don't want sex with the wife. And those studies show that men chose to make their marriage sexless at the same rate that women do.
> 
> 
> 
> H.S.D.D is only one of the many things that can cause low desire.
> 
> It's not the most common reason for a woman not wanting sex with their husband. Most women (and men) who do not want sex with their spouse are not LD. *They just do not want sex with their spouse.*


Whatever the reason, whoever may be "responsible," it sounds like it's time for a new spouse!


----------



## EleGirl

Married but Happy said:


> Whatever the reason, whoever may be "responsible," it sounds like it's time for a new spouse!


I believe, that if both parties are willing to work on the marriage this can be repaired. And I think that it often takes one person make some changes that will lead them both to agree to work on it. Usually it's caused by other problems in the marriage. Fix those and work on being sexual again and they can go on to have a good marriage. But if one or both of them are not willing to fix the marriage, then the marriage is toast and they may as well end it.


----------



## Married but Happy

EleGirl said:


> I believe, that if both parties are willing to work on the marriage this can be repaired. And I think that it often takes one person make some changes that will lead them both to agree to work on it. Usually it's caused by other problems in the marriage. Fix those and work on being sexual again and they can go on to have a good marriage. But if one or both of them are not willing to fix the marriage, then the marriage is toast and they may as well end it.


There are no situations where I would work on it, _unless _I was at fault and could do something to change that. Otherwise, I'd consider it a lost cause as far too few sexless marriages ever regain - or create - a satisfactory sex life. I think it's usually better to move on, and start fresh with someone else.


----------



## no name

john117 said:


> It's kind of hard to address the emotional needs of an inanimate object. You've been told that as well but hey, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail...
> 
> Even when I bent over backwards to meet her "emotional needs", like mother or sister passing, job issues... Or to meet her non emotional but practical needs like teaching her stuff or running her frequent job seeking campaigns... Or playing mother and father to our children... Nothing changed, no appreciation, nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada.
> 
> Try living like this and tell me I haven't met her so called needs. Mega lolz my friend.




Hmmm but that still relays that you only do those things bc it will lead to sx . If your wife knows this and a you say there is no appreciation from her, perhaps she doesn't like that attitude ?! I can't speak for every woman but I wouldn't like it. Just a thought and different perspective, you don't have to agree. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## no name

EleGirl said:


> That would be a fix if he could get some in a form that can be used by the brain and not simply digested. But it’s not available in that form.
> 
> 
> 
> Now there have been studies done in which couples are given oxytocin via aerosol spray. And guess what, they get that loving feeling back. But it would take a constant dosage to keep that feeling. That’s why it takes daily quality time to keep the levels up.




Hi just would like to clarify. For dopamine, L-dopa, Which is the precursor of dopamine. These medications does effect the brain , thus helps in many mental health disorders and Parkinson's , it works by altering the amount of dopamine neurotransmitters in the brain , some inhibit and some enhance. Using dopamine , as this form, effects the cardiac out put, renal function , shock . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> See this is the problem. When women like me talk about the fact that we were in marriages with men who did not want sex, this is the response we get. It's basically calling us liars. And as long as women are hit with this when we try to talk about the topic openly, there will be very few women who talk about it openly.


I certainly would not call you, or any other woman experiencing this, a liar, Ele. I absolutely believe you.

I just find those men very strange. Just my opinion.


----------



## no name

NotEasy said:


> Scurries off to chem lab, mix up oxytocin and dopamine for aerosol spray. Next off to perfume company, with a perfume that 10 to 20% of men will want to buy their wives. Just need a name and marketing campaign, How do I say "helps in sexless marriages" in a nice way?
> 
> Next I conquer the world. Cue evil scientist laugh




Lol! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## no name

no name said:


> Hi just would like to clarify. For dopamine, L-dopa, Which is the precursor of dopamine. These medications does effect the brain , thus helps in many mental health disorders and Parkinson's , it works by altering the amount of dopamine neurotransmitters in the brain , some inhibit and some enhance. Using dopamine , as this form, effects the cardiac out put, renal function , shock .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Btw- that's oral medication I'm referring to, 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## john117

EleGirl said:


> According to the studies of men who chose to make their marriages sexless, it has nothing do with things like ED.


Men don't choose to have ED, do they?

Performance anxiety leading to ED leading to reduced drive, nah... Doesn't happen.


----------



## NotEasy

EleGirl said:


> Thing is, the bolded has been *exactly* my (albeit limited) experience in life. And when I think about what my mom and sisters, as well as friends, have said, I know I'm not alone in that
> 
> When I dated, sure every guy I dated wanted sex all the time. When I first married, sure my husbands wanted sex all the time. But things changed over time as they do in many marriages. And it is not always the woman who ends up not wanting sex. It's often the man.
> 
> See this is the problem. When women like me talk about the fact that we were in marriages with men who did not want sex, this is the response we get. It's basically calling us liars. And as long as women are hit with this when we try to talk about the topic openly, there will be very few women who talk about it openly.
> 
> And you can bet that few men will ever tell their buddies... "I just don't was sex with my wife anymore." Nope, they will either say nothing or say that it's the wife who does not want sex.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All studies on the topic, that I have seen, say that the main reason that both men and women stop wanting sex with their partner is a passive aggressive way to deal with anger and resentment.
> 
> When I first came to TAM and tried to talk about he fact that my husband no longer would have sex, I was laughed at. Most, if not all, the men on TAM replied with things like "well you deserve it, it's about tie ma woman knows what it feels like." and many other very rude remarks. For a long time any woman who came to TAM and dared to talk about her husband making their marriage sexless got similar treatment. So they left. It's only been more recently that the topic can even be discussed here without a woman being attacked for bringing it up. As I said, most women who live with this feel that it's not a safe topic to discuss.


That is both a very sad and informative case.

We all (men and women) have the ability to change our reality to suit ourselves. We can change our own history to make ourselves look good or to suit social memes. Hence men say their wifes don't want as much sex as they do. Other men will just agree. Over time the man believes it more and more. Eventually even objective reality and evidence is not enough to overcome the perception.

And others, in this case women, are stuck in a distorted reality, they can't complain or bring up their reality or evidence, because it disagrees with the meme and others perception.

One thing I love about marriage is having someone who cares enough about me to put up with minor hiccups and to forgive. Or to give a serious wake up call when needed. Because none of us a 100% perfect 100% of the time.

Not that it matters now, but @EleGirl I wonder if you can recall the start of the problem? Do you think it might have been the one time you rejected him? Then over time he saw/imagined further evidence to support his growing percieved reality. You turned your head a certain way. You didn't laugh at a joke. Little things become magnified when really they were little things. And he dug himself deeper into PA.

And I wonder if maybe something similar is going on with the OP. She moved away not because she was repulsed but because she was hot, she wanted to watch the movie uninterupted, the child was there, she was ticklish, she really was tired ... and really she wanted to save sexy for later. But he got all upset and both missed out.


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> Men don't choose to have ED, do they?
> 
> Performance anxiety leading to ED leading to reduced drive, nah... Doesn't happen.


Now you are twisting my words.

Sure some men have ED.

Some men don't.

And some men who do not have ED chose to not have sex with their wives. Apparently it's a fair large number (10% or so). How is that so hard to understand?


----------



## john117

EleGirl said:


> The last 7 years of my marriage to my son's father was sexless. He is the one who chose this. He was very vocal about it too. Yet he used to tell his friends that the reason he cheated was that I did not want sex with him. By the time we divorce, he convinced himself that our marriage was sexless because I did not want sex. Yet the only time I ever turned him down for sex was in the few weeks after losing our twins at child birth and being very ill for a while after that.
> 
> What did I learn from that? Just because a guy is telling his friends that it's his wife's choice, well it just might not be the real story.


Bias is a strange thing...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2695750/

http://www.myvmc.com/diseases/hypoactive-sexual-desire-disorder-hsdd/

http://eventhescore.org/huffington-post-the-fda-sexual-dysfunction-and-gender-inequality/


----------



## EleGirl

NotEasy said:


> That is both a very sad and informative case.
> 
> We all (men and women) have the ability to change our reality to suit ourselves. We can change our own history to make ourselves look good or to suit social memes. Hence men say their wifes don't want as much sex as they do. Other men will just agree. Over time the man believes it more and more. Eventually even objective reality and evidence is not enough to overcome the perception.
> 
> And others, in this case women, are stuck in a distorted reality, they can't complain or bring up their reality or evidence, because it disagrees with the meme and others perception.
> 
> One thing I love about marriage is having someone who cares enough about me to put up with minor hiccups and to forgive. Or to give a serious wake up call when needed. Because none of us a 100% perfect 100% of the time.
> 
> Not that it matters now, but @EleGirl I wonder if you can recall the start of the problem? Do you think it might have been the one time you rejected him? Then over time he saw/imagined further evidence to support his growing percieved reality. You turned your head a certain way. You didn't laugh at a joke. Little things become magnified when really they were little things. And he dug himself deeper into PA.


Interesting that you are basically assuming here that it was me rejecting him that led to him reject sex with me… basically it’s a woman’s fault if the man does not want sex with her. 


As I said earlier, the ONLY time I ever said no to sex was right after I lost twins. I almost died. I had hemorrhaged to the point of needs a LOT of transfusions. I also had an infection that caused me excruciating pain. So yea, sex was not on the table for a few weeks while I tried to stay alive. I don’t even remember if he made advances at that time. I don’t’ think so. I was clearly very ill. 


Our sex life was back on track and pretty much back to daily after I recovered for some time. It was at least 2-3 years after this that he decided to go sexless. I recall the day very clearly. Not the date but what happened.


After we got married, he turned into an angry man. Nothing I did was good enough for him. So how did the problem of sexlessness start? I think it was his way to punish me for being imperfect (you know, human). He knew that my primary emotional need is physical contact (sex). So he apparently decided to withhold that to punish. That one day, he was yelling at me in the kitchen for God knows what. I asked him to stop the yelling and let’s talk. His response was to yell at me “THAT’S IT. I’M NEVER HAVING SEX WITH YOU AGAIN.” And he lived up to that promise.




NotEasy said:


> And I wonder if maybe something similar is going on with the OP. She moved away not because she was repulsed but because she was hot, she wanted to watch the movie uninterupted, the child was there, she was ticklish, she really was tired ... and really she wanted to save sexy for later. But he got all upset and both missed out.



Keep in mind that unknown to me he’d been cheating for a long time. He continued to cheat to the end of the marriage. And he continued to be more abusive.


It was a very typical case of a passive aggressive person using sex as a way to express anger and resentment. Someone who would not openly address the issues. So withhold sex became his tool.


----------



## john117

no name said:


> Hmmm but that still relays that you only do those things bc it will lead to sx . If your wife knows this and a you say there is no appreciation from her, perhaps she doesn't like that attitude ?! I can't speak for every woman but I wouldn't like it. Just a thought and different perspective, you don't have to agree.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hardly. 

For some things I had no choice. After her sister bought the farm, she would endlessly play out the various blame scenarios and demand help. The real response "we have been over it 1000 times already, eloping with your boyfriend and your daughters in the back is a bad idea, and rolled the vehicle in a mountain road"... 

Then her job issues... I had to help her keep her job by explaining how NormalPeople expect things... So.... Make sure she keeps the job...

And so on. It's mostly driven out of necessity, not for covert contract type things...


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> Interesting that you are basically assuming here that it was me rejecting him that led to him reject sex with me… basically it’s a woman’s fault if the man does not want sex with her.
> 
> As I said earlier, the ONLY time I ever said no to sex was right after I lost twins. I almost died. I had hemorrhaged to the point of needs a LOT of transfusions. I also had an infection that caused me excruciating pain. So yea, sex was not on the table for a few weeks while I tried to stay alive. I don’t even remember if he made advances at that time. I don’t’ think so. I was clearly very ill.
> 
> Our sex life was back on track and pretty much back to daily after I recovered for some time. It was at least 2-3 years after this that he decided to go sexless. I recall the day very clearly. Not the date but what happened.
> 
> After we got married, he turned into an angry man. Nothing I did was good enough for him. So how did the problem of sexlessness start? I think it was his way to punish me for being imperfect (you know, human). He knew that my primary emotional need is physical contact (sex). So he apparently decided to withhold that to punish. That one day, he was yelling at me in the kitchen for God knows what. I asked him to stop the yelling and let’s talk. His response was to yell at me “THAT’S IT. I’M NEVER HAVING SEX WITH YOU AGAIN.” And he lived up to that promise.
> 
> Keep in mind that unknown to me he’d been cheating for a long time. He continued to cheat to the end of the marriage. And he continued to be more abusive.
> 
> It was a very typical case of a passive aggressive person using sex as a way to express anger and resentment. Someone who would not openly address the issues. So withhold sex became his tool.


So basically he used the argument as an excuse to not have sex with you anymore. He wanted you to feel guilty.

When actually he was just taking his sexual energy and using it on his affair partners. What a manipulator.


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> So basically he used the argument as an excuse to not have sex with you anymore. He wanted you to feel guilty.
> 
> When actually he was just taking his sexual energy and using it on his affair partners. What a manipulator.


Manipulator is a mild description of him.

By the way. That book I suggested... most of the men said that they were having sex outside the marriage. They were just not having sex with their wives.

So.. if a man is not having sex with his wife.. the old saying must hold.. if he is not having it with you, he's getting it somewhere.


ETA: oddly, I got an apology letter from him earlier this year. 20 years after our divorce he apologized for the things that he did. .....


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> Manipulator is a mild description of him.
> 
> By the way. That book I suggested... most of the men said that they were having sex outside the marriage. They were just not having sex with their wives.
> 
> So.. *if a man is not having sex with his wife.. the old saying must hold.. if he is not having it with you, he's getting it somewhere.*
> 
> 
> ETA: oddly, I got an apology letter from him earlier this year. 20 years after our divorce he apologized for the things that he did. .....


The bolded makes a lot of sense, Ele.

And shame on him for trying to blame you!


----------



## anonmd

EleGirl said:


> Manipulator is a mild description of him.
> 
> By the way. That book I suggested... most of the men said that they were having sex outside the marriage. They were just not having sex with their wives.
> 
> So.. if a man is not having sex with his wife.. the old saying must hold.. if he is not having it with you, he's getting it somewhere.
> 
> 
> ETA: oddly, I got an apology letter from him earlier this year. 20 years after our divorce he apologized for the things that he did. .....


Now THAT I can go along with. You married an *******, can I say that without thinking it was your fault?

If you want to tell me there are the same # of ******* men who don't have sex with their wives but most get it elsewhere vs. women who don't have sex with there husbands and mostly don't step out, that I can believe. 

Completely different populations:surprise: Joining them in the same convo makes no sense at all to me.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

jack_medley said:


> Decreasing my work hours is not an option atm. we're not destitute but my family relies on me. We've talked about her working before but I've decided it's best she stay at home and manage the household while our daughter is still young.


If it's best she stay at home instead of alleviating some of the financial burden that causes you to work so much, then the lack of sex may have to be figured into the cost-benefit analysis of working so much when you re-evaluate that arrangement.



jack_medley said:


> The thing is, we get along fine in every other aspect of life. My wife is my best friend and we talk about everything. The only issue is when it comes to sex. Whenever sex is brought up she shuts down.
> 
> I just don't understand it.


So you don't really talk about everything then. She shuts down when sex becomes the conversation topic for a reason, and your first step is to figure out that reason.

Some possibilities that come to mind:

She's a child sexual abuse survivor and feels too much shame to share that with anybody.

She finds sex with you unpleasant, and doesn't know how to tell you that your bedroom skills are lousy without hurting your feelings.

She is having an affair and is staying monogamous with the other guy.

She finds you unattractive and doesn't know how to tell you without hurting your feelings.

She thinks of you as a platonic friend and roommate, with whom it's not appropriate to share sex talk, or sexual activity.

I'm sure other people can brainstorm more possibilities.


----------



## EleGirl

anonmd said:


> Now THAT I can go along with. You married an *******, can I say that without thinking it was your fault?


Yes I married an ********* and yes you can say that. I do take some fault for marrying the guy.



anonmd said:


> If you want to tell me there are the same # of ******* men who don't have sex with their wives but most get it elsewhere vs. women who don't have sex with there husbands and mostly don't step out, that I can believe.
> 
> Completely different populations:surprise: Joining them in the same convo makes no sense at all to me.


What is being ignored on this thread, and other threads on this topic, is usually when a woman does not want sex in marriage, it's not because she's LD. It' because she does not want sex with her husband. I don't know what percentage of women who make their marriage sexless go out and find sex somewhere else, but I'll bet it's relatively high.

So yea, most people, male and female, who do not want sex with their spouse are in the same boat.. they are not LD. They just do not want sex with their spouse.


----------



## john117

You could have fooled me but TAM is full of guys whose LD wives don't want sex period... Without affairs in sight. 

Those who want sex eventually get it outside the marriage. But I can remember few cases of that vs the typical LD case...

Now, what are the odds that this works the same way for men too?


----------



## no name

john117 said:


> Hardly.
> 
> For some things I had no choice. After her sister bought the farm, she would endlessly play out the various blame scenarios and demand help. The real response "we have been over it 1000 times already, eloping with your boyfriend and your daughters in the back is a bad idea, and rolled the vehicle in a mountain road"...
> 
> Then her job issues... I had to help her keep her job by explaining how NormalPeople expect things... So.... Make sure she keeps the job...
> 
> And so on. It's mostly driven out of necessity, not for covert contract type things...




Ah ok I get it. Ta 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NotEasy

> Interesting that you are basically assuming here that it was me rejecting him that led to him reject sex with me… basically it’s a woman’s fault if the man does not want sex with her.


No, sorry @EleGirl, if you think that then I wasn't clear enough or thorough enough in my post.

I guessed, wrongly, that you rejecting him once might have led to him rejecting sex with you completely. Seemed like a fair guess from your earlier post. But this post shows that wasn't the time that started his change.

BUT, more importantly, I don't think this is your fault. And in general it is not automatically the woman's fault if the man doesn't want to have sex with her. I was just guessing this was the time he started distorting his own reality.

And the details I skipped in my post were that we had several miscarriages before a difficult but successful birth. In each case we discussed when we might be ready to have PIV again. And when she was ready I still gave my wife explicit forgiveness in advance to subsequently say NO or STOP during later PIV. To me anything less would be unreasonable and uncaring.
You said the only time you rejected him was after losing twins at childbirth. Entirely understandable to me. This is also why I said it was sad.

So I don't think it was your fault, or woman's fault in general.

I remain convinced that he distorted his reality, but that is on him, not on you. Even if it didn't happen at the time I guessed.


> As I said earlier, the ONLY time I ever said no to sex was right after I lost twins. I almost died. I had hemorrhaged to the point of needs a LOT of transfusions. I also had an infection that caused me excruciating pain. So yea, sex was not on the table for a few weeks while I tried to stay alive. I don’t even remember if he made advances at that time. I don’t’ think so. I was clearly very ill.
> 
> 
> Our sex life was back on track and pretty much back to daily after I recovered for some time. It was at least 2-3 years after this that he decided to go sexless. I recall the day very clearly. Not the date but what happened.
> 
> 
> After we got married, he turned into an angry man. Nothing I did was good enough for him. So how did the problem of sexlessness start? I think it was his way to punish me for being imperfect (you know, human). He knew that my primary emotional need is physical contact (sex). So he apparently decided to withhold that to punish. That one day, he was yelling at me in the kitchen for God knows what. I asked him to stop the yelling and let’s talk. His response was to yell at me “THAT’S IT. I’M NEVER HAVING SEX WITH YOU AGAIN.” And he lived up to that promise.


So this shows he distorted his reality. Again entirely unreasonable and all on him.

And my point is, the OP might wonder if he is distorting his own reality too. He mentions one action and projects that to the beliefs of all women. Certainly it is not true for all woman. Maybe it is not even true for his wife. Maybe the problem is in his mind.

And his 80 hour work weeks don't help either.

Sorry quoting not working for me today, so I have cut and paste all this, hopefully without distorting the reality of your post.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> What is being ignored on this thread, and other threads on this topic, is usually when a woman does not want sex in marriage, it's not because she's LD. It' because she does not want sex with her husband. I don't know what percentage of women who make their marriage sexless go out and find sex somewhere else, but *I'll bet it's relatively high*.


Why do you think so?


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Men don't choose to have ED, do they?
> 
> Performance anxiety leading to ED leading to reduced drive, nah... Doesn't happen.


It may be a factor in 10-15% of ED cases. The other 85-90% are believed to have a physical cause. Diet and exercise changes can fix that.


----------



## jld

@NotEasy

OP has been banned. His whole story is likely false.


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> I admit I am skeptical that fully half of sexless marriages would be due to lack of male desire.


But it makes sense if most of those men are cheating, right?



> I could be wrong, but it does not seem likely to me based my life experience (several of my male friends are also in borderline sexless marriages)


I don't understand all this sexlessness. I wonder if part of it is too high of expectations on the man's part? Frequent, genuinely enthusiastic sex might be more than some women can sincerely offer. 

It would help if these men did not see sex as emotionally affirming, or as their main emotional need. That puts a lot pressure on both men and women. Learning to see affirmation from her outside of sex could ease that pressure.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> But it makes sense if most of those men are cheating, right?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand all this sexlessness. I wonder if part of it is too high of expectations on the man's part? Frequent, genuinely enthusiastic sex might be more than some women can sincerely offer.
> 
> It would help if these men did not see sex as emotionally affirming, or as their main emotional need. That puts a lot pressure on both men and women. Learning to see affirmation from her outside of sex could ease that pressure.


"Can offer" or "want to offer"???


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> "Can offer" or "want to offer"???


You missed the key word: "sincerely."


----------



## john117

jld said:


> You missed the key word: "sincerely."


I didn't miss it. 

Do we now add such qualifiers to the day to day marital interactions? 

Frequent, enthusiastic sex is part of a good marriage. If she can't - or won't - "offer" it, why bother? 

Does a husband "enthusiastically" mows the lawn when it's 95F outside? Shovel the driveway so his wife can get to the PTO meeting?

I'm not talking starfish here


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I didn't miss it.
> 
> Do we now add such qualifiers to the day to day marital interactions?
> 
> Frequent, enthusiastic sex is part of a good marriage. If she can't - or won't - "offer" it, why bother?
> 
> Does a husband "enthusiastically" mows the lawn when it's 95F outside? Shovel the driveway so his wife can get to the PTO meeting?
> 
> I'm not talking starfish here


If she does not feel it, it would not be sincere, John. And most men on TAM seem to need the sincerity to feel validated.

If you want to negotiate a trade--enthusiastic lawn mowing or snow shoveling for enthusiastic sex, that is up to you. But realize that the enthusiasm will likely just be a show if she is not truly inspired.

I wonder how many men care how "enthusiastically" their wives cook, if they plain old like her cooking, and want some of it?

Do you need your wife to be enthusiastic, and sincerely so, John? Or is a show enough?


----------



## Married but Happy

If my wife lacks enthusiasm for me and sex with me, we're done. Sex is the one and only thing that social conventions on marriage say I can't outsource, so if it's not meeting my needs, the marriage is as good as over. Social conventions do allow me to divorce, and I've done so once, primarily because of this issue.


----------



## jld

Married but Happy said:


> If my wife lacks enthusiasm for me and sex with me, we're done. Sex is the one and only thing that social conventions on marriage say I can't outsource, so if it's not meeting my needs, the marriage is as good as over. Social conventions do allow me to divorce, and I've done so once, primarily because of this issue.


Do you expect her to bring her own enthusiasm? Or do you feel responsible for inspiring it?

Also, you two have no kids together, right?


----------



## john117

This month I have both my wife and my older girl here cooking. Wife cooks about as enthusiastically as she... You get the idea. It's a chore. DD cooks like she's on a TV cooking show. It's not like wife has no time. She does not associate cooking with 'fun'. The results are fairly predictable.

But I.dont expect this level of involvement. I expect her to show up, put some effort, and work to improve. And do it right. None of which is happening with her except work, and even there, not without B!tching up a storm.

I don't need enthusiasm, or sincerity, if they're for my benefit. I need her to do things because they need to be done, and in the hope of getting better at it. 

Think Army.


----------



## Anon1111

EleGirl said:


> It was a very typical case of a passive aggressive person using sex as a way to express anger and resentment. Someone who would not openly address the issues. So withhold sex became his tool.


this is the dark side of these cases

sometimes it is just an unintentional loss of desire. sh-t happens.

but in other cases it is a pure power play.


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> But it makes sense if most of those men are cheating, right?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand all this sexlessness. I wonder if part of it is too high of expectations on the man's part? Frequent, genuinely enthusiastic sex might be more than some women can sincerely offer.
> 
> It would help if these men did not see sex as emotionally affirming, or as their main emotional need. That puts a lot pressure on both men and women. Learning to see affirmation from her outside of sex could ease that pressure.


Is there a positive adjective describing a sexual encounter that won't be taken as a burden or offensive by a women? Cause really, I think when most men who have been married to these refusers (there I go again with the negative but truthful language) use the term enthusiastic it's a pretty low bar. As in, eye rolls, "hurry up", and "AGAIN, we just did it two weeks ago" is defined as the absence of enthusiasm. 

As far as affirmation goes, you have to actually offer it. There was a thread recently about admiration and respect and there wasn't exactly a ground swell of women thinking they had any responsibility to offer much in that department either. A whole lot of "I do this, this and this" why should he expect any acknowledgement at all for just doing these things which adults have to do?

Marriage should come with a warning label for both to review and sign before the certificate is issued. "you are now having sex at a rate of 100-200 (or more) times per year, research has shown that within 5 or 10 years 20% of couples will be coupling 10 or fewer times per year, another 30% or so less than 20 times per year." Sign here to acknowledge these risks. 

Women thinks to herself, of course - pen please. 
Man thinks to himself WTF? 

I've got a friend who is roughly 20 years younger than me. We see each other a couple times a year for a few days. He is at the end of a long drawn out professional training program and found himself a women within the past couple years. The poor guy is hopelessly in love and they will be married. We have had a few talks, he's very receptive to general career and economic discussion and soaks up any and all advice or information. 

Totally unbelieving on anything that might happen relationship wise . Just can't wrap his mind around the love of his life not continuing exactly as she is right now.


----------



## Anon1111

anonmd said:


> Now THAT I can go along with. You married an *******, can I say that without thinking it was your fault?
> 
> If you want to tell me there are the same # of ******* men who don't have sex with their wives but most get it elsewhere vs. women who don't have sex with there husbands and mostly don't step out, that I can believe.
> 
> Completely different populations:surprise: Joining them in the same convo makes no sense at all to me.


I'm not sure we can conclude they are different populations

I feel pretty certain most women who are the "LD" ones would cheat if they had the opportunity and knew there would be no consequence.


----------



## Married but Happy

jld said:


> Do you expect her to bring her own enthusiasm? Or do you feel responsible for inspiring it?
> 
> Also, you two have no kids together, right?


Some of both. Just as she should inspire my enthusiasm at times and I should have some of my own for her. It's not my sole responsibility, nor is it her sole responsibility. It's a partnership, or it's nothing.

No, we do not have kids together. The kids are from our first marriages.


----------



## no name

Married but Happy said:


> If my wife lacks enthusiasm for me and sex with me, we're done. Sex is the one and only thing that social conventions on marriage say I can't outsource, so if it's not meeting my needs, the marriage is as good as over. Social conventions do allow me to divorce, and I've done so once, primarily because of this issue.




Wow, that's harsh to even read. I tolerate others views and I accept other opinions but still this was harsh to read, so blunt. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Anon1111

EleGirl said:


> So yea, most people, male and female, who do not want sex with their spouse are in the same boat.. they are not LD. They just do not want sex with their spouse.


bingo


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> This month I have both my wife and my older girl here cooking. Wife cooks about as enthusiastically as she... You get the idea. It's a chore. DD cooks like she's on a TV cooking show. It's not like wife has no time. She does not associate cooking with 'fun'. The results are fairly predictable.
> 
> But I.dont expect this level of involvement. I expect her to show up, put some effort, and work to improve. And do it right. None of which is happening with her except work, and even there, not without B!tching up a storm.
> 
> I don't need enthusiasm, or sincerity, if they're for my benefit. I need her to do things because they need to be done, and in the hope of getting better at it.
> 
> Think Army.


Being married is like being in the army? Not very inspiring, John.

And with a woman who is not afraid of being court marshaled, inspiration is probably the only path to success.


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> I don't understand all this sexlessness. I wonder if part of it is too high of expectations on the man's part? Frequent, genuinely enthusiastic sex might be more than some women can sincerely offer.
> 
> It would help if these men did not see sex as emotionally affirming, or as their main emotional need. That puts a lot pressure on both men and women. Learning to see affirmation from her outside of sex could ease that pressure.


it's the standard 1x per month string along. none of the guys I know are looking for some amazing performance or hourly BJs.

All of the wives are SAHMs, so take from that what you will.


----------



## jld

Married but Happy said:


> Some of both. Just as she should inspire my enthusiasm at times and *I should *have some of my own for her. It's not my sole responsibility, nor is it her sole responsibility. It's a partnership, or it's nothing.
> 
> No, we do not have kids together. The kids are from our first marriages.


Why "should" you?

I know Dug expects access, but he does not expect enthusiasm.


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> Do you expect her to bring her own enthusiasm? Or do you feel responsible for inspiring it?
> 
> Also, you two have no kids together, right?


it's nobody's responsibility. it's just either there or it's not.


----------



## Married but Happy

no name said:


> Wow, that's harsh to even read. I tolerate others views and I accept other opinions but still this was harsh to read, so blunt.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Unless you've been through the long-term pain of rejection in a sexless marriage, you probably can't understand how harmful it is. Having experienced it and having tried everything to change it without success, I had to move on. Knowing how this works now, I would never subject myself to this kind of pain again. I would make an effort to change things, but I would give that a limited amount of time.

So, my view may seem harsh, but it based on truth and the reality of sexless relationships.


----------



## anonmd

Anon1111 said:


> I'm not sure we can conclude they are different populations
> 
> I feel pretty certain most women who are the "LD" ones would cheat if they had the opportunity and knew there would be no consequence.


I don't, we can disagree. 

The male who is a dog is going to cheat early and often and maybe cutoff his wife at some point, timing variable. 

The women is going to have children, ignore her husband for a decade or two then maybe get around to deciding sex with someone else might be nice. I may well be naive but I doubt there are all that many women who get married and immediately within a couple years start banging dudes on the side. There are some of course.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Being married is like being in the army? Not very inspiring, John.
> 
> And with a woman who is not afraid of being court marshaled, inspiration is probably the only path to success.


I hate to tell you this, but life in general is like in the Army. You do a lot of things you don't want to do, a few you do, and a lot you don't care about. But whatever you do, do it right and do it with a purpose. Not with enthusiasm, not with a huge smile on your face, bit with the feeling it needs to be done.

Whether it's latrine duty, recon patrol, or anything in between.

Not all of us have the luxury of making our own choices for everything, or abdicating them, or leaving them to random order.


----------



## Married but Happy

jld said:


> Why "should" you?
> 
> I know Dug expects access, but he does not expect enthusiasm.


IMO, everyone can have their own standards for what they want, need, and expect in their marriage. One of mine is that I really want and desire my spouse, and vice versa. Anything less would feel unsatisfying, and ultimately empty - going through the motions of sex, only. Not much better than masturbation. Maybe other things in some relationships provide something to balance this if enthusiasm and desire are lacking, but for me that would not be sufficient given my past experiences.


----------



## Anon1111

anonmd said:


> I don't, we can disagree.
> 
> The male who is a dog is going to cheat early and often and maybe cutoff his wife at some point, timing variable.
> 
> The women is going to have children, ignore her husband for a decade or two then maybe get around to deciding sex with someone else might be nice. I may well be naive but I doubt there are all that many women who get married and immediately within a couple years start banging dudes on the side. There are some of course.


below article has some interesting points, e.g.

- female self reporting of infidelity has been rapidly rising in past 2 decades (is this due to actual increase in cheating or just greater honesty?)

- female cheaters are better at not getting caught compared to male cheaters

- wealthier people are more likely to cheat

9 Fascinating Facts About Infidelity | Alternet


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I hate to tell you this, but life in general is like in the Army. You do a lot of things you don't want to do, a few you do, and a lot you don't care about. But whatever you do, do it right and do it with a purpose. Not with enthusiasm, not with a huge smile on your face, bit with the feeling it needs to be done.
> 
> Whether it's latrine duty, recon patrol, or anything in between.
> 
> Not all of us have the luxury of making our own choices for everything, or abdicating them, or leaving them to random order.


Well, when I had all the kids at home, it did often feel like I was just doing what had to be done. Non-stop parental duties. It could be a real drag.

But sex with Dug was not a drag. I was not always enthusiastic, to be sure. But sex was still attention from him, some acknowledgement that we were more than just parents (and his being a provider) together.

Your wife is not dependent on you, john. She has choices. That is why, in modern society, where women have financial independence, it is so important that men learn to inspire women if they want sex and the women don't. It is really your only legitimate path to it.

And that path also offers you opportunities for growth. Instead of nursing bitterness, you can ask yourself what you can do to improve things. When you feel defensive, know that that is an area where there could be growth.

Manipulation short circuits growth, john. Empathy and compassion and genuine examination of conscience could bring you so much more happiness.


----------



## jld

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, *everyone can have their own standards for what they want, need, and expect in their marriage. *One of mine is that I really want and desire my spouse, and vice versa. Anything less would feel unsatisfying, and ultimately empty - going through the motions of sex, only. Not much better than masturbation. Maybe other things in some relationships provide something to balance this if enthusiasm and desire are lacking, but for me that would not be sufficient given my past experiences.


Totally agree with the bolded.


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> Is there a positive adjective describing a sexual encounter that won't be taken as a burden or offensive by a women? Cause really, I think when most men who have been married to these refusers (there I go again with the negative but truthful language) use the term enthusiastic it's a pretty low bar. As in, eye rolls, "hurry up", and "AGAIN, we just did it two weeks ago" is defined as the absence of enthusiasm.
> 
> As far as affirmation goes, you have to actually offer it. There was a thread recently about admiration and respect and there wasn't exactly a ground swell of women thinking they had any responsibility to offer much in that department either. A whole lot of "I do this, this and this" why should he expect any acknowledgement at all for just doing these things which adults have to do?
> 
> Marriage should come with a warning label for both to review and sign before the certificate is issued. "you are now having sex at a rate of 100-200 (or more) times per year, research has shown that within 5 or 10 years 20% of couples will be coupling 10 or fewer times per year, another 30% or so less than 20 times per year." Sign here to acknowledge these risks.
> 
> Women thinks to herself, of course - pen please.
> Man thinks to himself WTF?
> 
> I've got a friend who is roughly 20 years younger than me. We see each other a couple times a year for a few days. He is at the end of a long drawn out professional training program and found himself a women within the past couple years. The poor guy is hopelessly in love and they will be married. We have had a few talks, he's very receptive to general career and economic discussion and soaks up any and all advice or information.
> 
> Totally unbelieving on anything that might happen relationship wise . Just can't wrap his mind around the love of his life not continuing exactly as she is right now.


Dug told me early on in our relationship that he expects us to have sex through our 80s. I was kind of surprised. I thought sex kind of died out sometime in the 70s age range. But I was told ahead of time, so I could have left if I did not feel comfortable with the expectations, you know?

But even with the clear expectations at the beginning, he loves me and wants me to feel comfortable, too. That is where the inspiration comes in.


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> I'm not sure we can conclude they are different populations
> 
> I feel pretty certain most women who are the "LD" ones would cheat if they had the opportunity and knew there would be no consequence.


I have known religious women who simply do not desire sex with their husbands. I cannot see them cheating at all.


----------



## anonmd

Anon1111 said:


> below article has some interesting points, e.g.
> 
> - female self reporting of infidelity has been rapidly rising in past 2 decades (is this due to actual increase in cheating or just greater honesty?)
> 
> - female cheaters are better at not getting caught compared to male cheaters
> 
> - wealthier people are more likely to cheat
> 
> 9 Fascinating Facts About Infidelity | Alternet


Wawawawa, find me the study that says females cheat at an equal rate as men within 10 years of the birth of their first child. Pretty sure it doesn't exist:wink2:


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> it's the standard 1x per month string along. none of the guys I know are looking for some amazing performance or hourly BJs.
> 
> All of the wives are SAHMs, so take from that what you will.


Well, I really do not understand that. I just do not understand that at all.


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> it's nobody's responsibility. it's just either there or it's not.


I think things can be done to get it there, Anon. Doesn't hurt to try, anyway.


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> Your wife is not dependent on you, john. She has choices. That is why, in modern society, where women have financial independence, it is so important that men learn to inspire women if they want sex and the women don't. It is really your only legitimate path to it.


I actually agree with this, but there is more to it.

first, it goes both ways. Neither the husband nor the wife is really dependent on the other. Anything given is freely given by both. Both have choices.

second, there is a limit to how much you can really "inspire" someone else. ultimately, each individual makes his/her own choices. nobody can take total responsibility for another person.

so, basically, do your best to not expect something, follow the golden rule and then don't stress about the result because that's all you can really do.


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> below article has some interesting points, e.g.
> 
> - female self reporting of infidelity has been rapidly rising in past 2 decades (is this due to actual increase in cheating or just greater honesty?)
> 
> - female cheaters are better at not getting caught compared to male cheaters
> 
> - wealthier people are more likely to cheat
> 
> 9 Fascinating Facts About Infidelity | Alternet


Sounds like it's all about more access leading to more cheating.


----------



## john117

I'm taking that path, so personally I don't care. Growth, I'm where I want to be. Improvements, likewise. We're not all the unwashed obese chain-smoking drunkard jobless slobs that the peanut gallery thinks we are... Bitterness, I'm well past it.

Defensive -> growth... That's an interesting angle, albeit a wrong one in many cases. Humans are not Wall Street quarterly reports. They plateau. There's acceptance of a steady state, of harmony in just being as is. 

And this doesn't even account for the infamous 95℅ effort for 5℅ gain aspect of it. 

I could deliver a Ted talk or two about the fact that some people can't or won't be inspired at any cost. That's because inspiration is a fairly high cognitive process, whereas sex - and the refusal thereof - is far more reptilian (in contrast to love, but that's a Ted talk for next week).

IN OTHER WORDS, THE INSPIREE HAS TO BE OPEN TO INSPIRATION.

Good luck with that.


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> Sounds like it's all about more access leading to more cheating.


my guess is that there are several factors

- women in the workforce

- technology creating greater social networks (providing for greater potential number of sex partners)

- less social stigma regarding self reporting (i.e., some of the increase isn't actually an increase, it is just more honesty)

- fewer attractive men overall (leading women to become committed to men who they don't find attractive in order to secure benefits of marriage, but then cheating to meet their sexual needs)


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> I actually agree with this, but there is more to it.


Why do you "actually" agree with this? Why would you not just agree?



> first, it goes both ways. Neither the husband nor the wife is really dependent on the other. Anything given is freely given by both. Both have choices.


In the past, financial dependence kept many women from exercising full agency. Nowadays, more women do truly have choices.



> second, there is a limit to how much you can really "inspire" someone else. ultimately, each individual makes his/her own choices. nobody can take total responsibility for another person.


We are all ultimately responsible for our own choices. We are the ones who will pay the price for them, anyway.

I think we have more influence over our partners than we sometimes realize. That can be an untapped source of inspiration.



> so, basically, do your best to not expect something, follow the golden rule and then don't stress about the result because that's all you can really do.


You are forgetting about inspiration there.

Anon, I get the sense you think the things you have tried in the past have not worked, so you are taking a more passive path. Weren't those things pretty aggressive and demanding, though? Can't entirely remember. 

Just be open to being more assertive, in a healthy way, when you feel you can, would be my advice.

So sad that you and your wife cannot get in the same groove. But again, it can be viewed as a growth opportunity. That could lower the resentment.


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> my guess is that there are several factors
> 
> - women in the workforce
> 
> - technology creating greater social networks (providing for greater potential number of sex partners)
> 
> - less social stigma regarding self reporting (i.e., some of the increase isn't actually an increase, it is just more honesty)


All sound reasonable.



> - fewer attractive men overall (leading women to become committed to men who they don't find attractive in order to secure benefits of marriage, but then cheating to meet their sexual needs)


Not sure about that last one. I would guess the supply has always been about the same.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I'm taking that path, so personally I don't care. Growth, I'm where I want to be. Improvements, likewise. We're not all the unwashed obese chain-smoking drunkard jobless slobs that the peanut gallery thinks we are... Bitterness, I'm well past it.
> 
> Defensive -> growth... That's an interesting angle, albeit a wrong one in many cases. Humans are not Wall Street quarterly reports. They plateau. There's acceptance of a steady state, of harmony in just being as is.
> 
> And this doesn't even account for the infamous 95℅ effort for 5℅ gain aspect of it.
> 
> I could deliver a Ted talk or two about the fact that some people can't or won't be inspired at any cost. That's because inspiration is a fairly high cognitive process, whereas sex - and the refusal thereof - is far more reptilian (in contrast to love, but that's a Ted talk for next week).
> 
> IN OTHER WORDS, THE INSPIREE HAS TO BE OPEN TO INSPIRATION.
> 
> Good luck with that.


What else do you have but inspiration?

John, I am trying to keep hope alive in you. If you want it all extinguished, there is no reason for me to even reply to you. 

Honestly, your attitude reminds me of that sign, "Abandon Hope, All Ye who Enter Here!" Do you really want to live that way?


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> Dug told me early on in our relationship that he expects us to have sex through our 80s. I was kind of surprised. I thought sex kind of died out sometime in the 70s age range. But I was told ahead of time, so I could have left if I did not feel comfortable with the expectations, you know?
> 
> But even with the clear expectations at the beginning, he loves me and wants me to feel comfortable, too. That is where the inspiration comes in.


I once told my wife (not my wife at the time) I would never turn her down. I suppose it would have been unfair to expect a similar commitment, perhaps a limit on rejections to say, less than a thousand would have been reasonable? >

Now, there was a time after a day of monumental physical effort on some home improvement project, I probably hung 25 or 30 sheets of drywall over 12 hours by myself. My head hit the pillow, my eyes closed. I opened one eye and said "you know, I'm REALLY tired, but I did tell you I'd never turn you down." LOLz, "no thanks!"


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> I once told my wife (not my wife at the time) I would never turn her down. I suppose it would have been unfair to expect a similar commitment, perhaps a limit on rejections to say, less than a thousand would have been reasonable? >
> 
> Now, there was a time after a day of monumental physical effort on some home improvement project, I probably hung 25 or 30 sheets of drywall over 12 hours by myself. My head hit the pillow, my eyes closed. I opened one eye and said "you know, I'm REALLY tired, but I did tell you I'd never turn you down." LOLz, "no thanks!"


I never told him I would not turn him down. It happens sometimes.

He has turned me down twice, both times we were going to bed late at night and he had early morning meetings the next day.

The first time he relented, the second time he insisted we sleep.

I did feel surprised both times, and somewhat rejected. It was just so out of the norm for him. He assured me it was nothing personal, just fatigue and the need to be up bright and early the next day.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> What else do you have but inspiration?
> 
> John, I am trying to keep hope alive in you. If you want it all extinguished, there is no reason for me to even reply to you.
> 
> Honestly, your attitude reminds me of that sign, "Abandon Hope, All Ye who Enter Here!" Do you really want to live that way?


Sigh.

In WW2 my father's squad was trapped under heavy fire by the Jerries. They basically could die where they were or make a run for it thru the enemy. I asked my father (the commanding officer) if he delivered any inspirational speech to his men. He said "no, they knew we were screwed if we stayed and our only action was to break thru. They're soldiers, that's what they are there for". They all made it out somehow with a few injuries only and Dad received the Silver Medal for his action. He was only doing his job.

Needless to say I'm not big on inspiration.

As for the rest, I seriously thought of using the lab 3d printer to make the sign for the bedroom...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Sigh.
> 
> In WW2 my father's squad was trapped under heavy fire by the Jerries. They basically could die where they were or make a run for it thru the enemy. I asked my father (the commanding officer) if he delivered any inspirational speech to his men. He said "no, they knew we were screwed if we stayed and our only action was to break thru. They're soldiers, that's what they are there for". They all made it out somehow with a few injuries only and Dad received the Silver Medal for his action. He was only doing his job.
> 
> Needless to say I'm not big on inspiration.
> 
> *As for the rest, I seriously thought of using the lab 3d printer to make the sign for the bedroom*...


 on the bolded.

I get it--you do not feel responsible for inspiring her. I just do not see any other way to get things going again for you two.


----------



## john117

You can't inspire someone who isn't receptive being inspired. 

Why do yiu think she pursued a PhD? For the glory? Opportunities? Nope. She's not using it. 

She wanted to show her family that despite not going to med school she's somehow "worthy"... Or get even with them. Not because she wanted it for herself....

My kids have inspiration. It's an innate thing. If you have to listen to Zig Ziegler to tell you to be consistently at work on time... as we get older, inspiration means little. Think public service employees . Can I inspire the passport office to hurry my application?


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> You can't inspire someone who isn't receptive being inspired.
> 
> Why do yiu think she pursued a PhD? For the glory? Opportunities? Nope. She's not using it.
> 
> She wanted to show her family that despite not going to med school she's somehow "worthy"... Or get even with them. Not because she wanted it for herself....
> 
> My kids have inspiration. It's an innate thing. If you have to listen to Zig Ziegler to tell you to be consistently at work on time... as we get older, inspiration means little. Think public service employees . Can I inspire the passport office to hurry my application?


I have known people who I did not like at first, for whatever reason, that I have come to respect greatly as I got to know them. They may have a gruff exterior, but great work ethic, for example.

I may not have been open to being inspired by them, but their consistency worked on me over time.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I have known people who I did not like at first, for whatever reason, that I have come to respect greatly as I got to know them. They may have a gruff exterior, but great work ethic, for example.
> 
> I may not have been open to being inspired by them, but their consistency worked on me over time.


You can try to inspire until you are blue in the face but I bet she still doesn't drop her panties. 

I believe attraction is i think I heard someone say "reptilian". Instinct.

So you can have these deep meaningful empathetic discussions if you want to try and manipulate your wife into doing something she doesn't want to do.

*OR*

Buy you a copy of MMSLP and work the MAP and work on yourself and if she doesn't come around well it's divorce time. 

It takes drastic measures to rekindle a woman's libido once it's lost. Not too many success stories in the "sexless marriage" threads.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> You can try to inspire until you are blue in the face but I bet she still doesn't drop her panties.
> 
> I believe attraction is i think I heard someone say "reptilian". Instinct.
> 
> So you can have these deep meaningful empathetic discussions if you want to try and manipulate your wife into doing something she doesn't want to do.
> 
> *OR*
> 
> Buy you a copy of MMSLP and work the MAP and work on yourself and if she doesn't come around well it's divorce time.
> 
> It takes drastic measures to rekindle a woman's libido once it's lost. Not too many success stories in the "sexless marriage" threads.


How is a deep, meaningful, empathetic discussion manipulative and using the MMSLP PUA tactics not?


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> How is a deep, meaningful, empathetic discussion manipulative and using the MMSLP PUA tactics not?


Because your discussion is basically trying to talk your way into her pants (which never works) and with MMSLP you are just bettering yourself.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Because your discussion is basically trying to talk your way into her pants and with MMSLP you are just bettering yourself.


I don't think men do MMSLP just to become better people.

I think most husbands have sex as a goal, whatever they are doing.


----------



## john117

The goal is saving the marriage actually. Sex is secondary.


----------



## Anon1111

john117 said:


> The goal is saving the marriage actually. Sex is secondary.


nah, the goal is to make yourself the best version of you that you can be

if your wife doesn't like it, you'll still be OK


----------



## jerry123

Anon1111 said:


> nah, the goal is to make yourself the best version of you that you can be
> 
> if your wife doesn't like it, you'll still be OK




The first part is part of the mmslp mindset....the second part is also part of the mindset except you change "you'll still be ok" to you'll be in a better position to find a woman that does. 


Mmslp is not PUA material. It's making your "reds" into "greens". 

It's making you sex rank from a 6 to an 8. 


The whole thing is generally to pull your wife in. If she does not come along for the ride. The man then has options and one of the options is to give an ultimatum, either sh!t or get off the pot. 

It's not to stick around in a sexless marriage and suffer. 


And it's not to stay married then cheat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon1111 said:


> nah, the goal is to make yourself the best version of you that you can be
> 
> if your wife doesn't like it, you'll still be OK


That's all you can control


----------



## jerry123

jld said:


> I don't think men do MMSLP just to become better people.
> 
> I think most husbands have sex as a goal, whatever they are doing.


It's all in how you use mmslp...

Some men use it to better themselves, others may take short cuts. The author only suggests things to do. He can't foresee how each man uses it. 

The author also states, sex comes last. Don't expect by reading and starting your MAP the wife will be jumping your bones in the first week. 

Mine took a good 8-10 months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon1111

jerry123 said:


> The first part is part of the mmslp mindset....the second part is also part of the mindset except you change "you'll still be ok" to you'll be in a better position to find a woman that does.
> 
> 
> Mmslp is not PUA material. It's making your "reds" into "greens".
> 
> It's making you sex rank from a 6 to an 8.
> 
> 
> The whole thing is generally to pull your wife in. If she does not come along for the ride. The man then has options and one of the options is to give an ultimatum, either sh!t or get off the pot.
> 
> It's not to stick around in a sexless marriage and suffer.
> 
> 
> And it's not to stay married then cheat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree generally, but I think you've got to get rid of the idea that you're doing this to pull your wife in.

It's not about her, it's about you.


----------



## john117

Anon1111 said:


> nah, the goal is to make yourself the best version of you that you can be
> 
> if your wife doesn't like it, you'll still be OK


Think primary / secondary. If the primary goal is to improve yourself, it's a no brainer to walk away in most any circumstances (unless she's loaded with money  )


----------



## jerry123

Anon1111 said:


> I agree generally, but I think you've got to get rid of the idea that you're doing this to pull your wife in.
> 
> It's not about her, it's about you.


Oh, yes yes yes yes. 

That's your ultimate goal though. Most if not all men want to stay married and have a better sex life. But yes, your mindset should be you're doing it for YOU. It will be great if the wife laps it up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I still think they are doing it for more and better sex. With somebody.

Just my opinion.


----------



## john117

Given the relative ease of finding an FWB, it's not for sex... 

I'm looking at my friends who are downsizing with true envy. I could care less about sex and far more about not playing John the landscaper....

Meaning, marital differences and so called ability to influence are not always about sex. Far from it.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Given the relative ease of finding an FWB, it's not for sex...
> 
> I'm looking at my friends who are downsizing with true envy. I could care less about sex and far more about not playing John the landscaper....


You want a good relationship. That is your goal, no?

I don't think the guys reading MMSLP have the same main goal as you.


----------



## Married but Happy

jld said:


> I still think they are doing it for more and better sex. With somebody.
> 
> Just my opinion.


That may be true. That's not a bad thing, though.

I want a good relationship even more - but that relationship must include good sex.


----------



## jerry123

jld said:


> I still think they are doing it for more and better sex. With somebody.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Of course, that's how we are wired. 

Honestly, I don't pretend to know the way a woman's mind works at all. I'm not a woman. 

I can only give you an insight to how a guy thinks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

jerry123 said:


> Of course, that's how we are wired.
> 
> Honestly, I don't pretend to know the way a woman's mind works at all. I'm not a woman.
> 
> I can only give you an insight to how a guy thinks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, Jerry.


----------



## Lila

Reading all these posts about mmslp I can't help wonder if there will ever be a married woman's sex life primer. 

If a sexless marriage caused by a wife is difficult to overcome, then a sexless marriage caused by a husband is impossible. 

Lol, i just realized the title of the female equivalent of mmslp - 'the married woman's guide to divorce'. 

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## jerry123

Remember, we are still all cavemen and cave women...just modernized. 


I laugh at all of these colleges and govt taking out the word "man/men" to some how make everything gender neutral. To try and teach these kids that seeing the words man/men somehow makes a woman feel less of themselves. 

You can't change millions of years of evolution by changing a word. 


We've come a long way in just 100 years but deep down we are still wired the same as a million years ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jerry123

Lila said:


> Reading all these posts about mmslp I can't help wonder if there will ever be a married woman's sex life primer.
> 
> If a sexless marriage caused by a wife is difficult to overcome, then a sexless marriage caused by a husband is impossible.
> 
> Lol, i just realized the title of the female equivalent of mmslp - 'the married woman's guide to divorce'.
> 
> Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


I so wish Athol's wife would write the mwslp book. 

Like how a woman can do more to have a better relationship and sex life for their marriage. 

I remember asking on his forum why there is not a book like that. 
He responded that it just does not work that way...

Why not???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

jerry123 said:


> I so wish Athol's wife would write the mwslp book.
> 
> Like how a woman can do more to have a better relationship and sex life for their marriage.
> 
> I remember asking on his forum why there is not a book like that.
> He responded that it just does not work that way...
> 
> Why not???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because the man inspires the woman.


----------



## jerry123

jld said:


> Because the man inspires the woman.


Thought you would say that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lila

jerry123 said:


> I so wish Athol's wife would write the mwslp book.
> 
> Like how a woman can do more to have a better relationship and sex life for their marriage.
> 
> I remember asking on his forum why there is not a book like that.
> He responded that it just does not work that way...
> 
> Why not???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why would she write a book like that? She doesn't do anything but be present and her husband is thinking about sex. IOW, she wouldn't have a base of experience to write a book where it's the woman trying to fix the sexual relationship. 


Eta: that's why I jokingly said the title for such a book is 'the woman's guide to divorce'. That's about the only option. 

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

jerry123 said:


> Thought you would say that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Like you said, our wiring has not changed in the last 100 years.


----------



## GTdad

jld said:


> Because the man inspires the woman.


Two ways to look at that:

1) If true, then books like MMSLP strive to do exactly that, although we can obviously bicker endlessly on MMSLP's ability to do so.

2) I'm inclined to think that it's not necessarily true, based on the number of women here bemoaning sexless marriages. If a woman is strictly reactive to her man, it's difficult to imagine why it is that they'd have a problem with whatever sexual frequency the husband decides on.


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> I never told him I would not turn him down. It happens sometimes.
> 
> He has turned me down twice, both times we were going to bed late at night and he had early morning meetings the next day.
> 
> The first time he relented, the second time he insisted we sleep.
> 
> I did feel surprised both times, and somewhat rejected. It was just so out of the norm for him. He assured me it was nothing personal, just fatigue and the need to be up bright and early the next day.


ROFL  TWICE eh? Stings doesn't it? Imagine several times a week for 20 years. Actually, call it 10 as eventually the willingness to touch the stove yet again diminishes. 

Sounds like you've met the test for frequent and as long as you hadn't turned him down with disdain in your voice too often met the test for enthusiastic


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> ROFL  TWICE eh? Stings doesn't it? Imagine several times a week for 20 years. Actually, call it 10 as eventually the willingness to touch the stove yet again diminishes.
> 
> Sounds like you've met the test for frequent and as long as you hadn't turned him down with disdain in your voice too often met the test for enthusiastic


I was surprised. And I did need some reassurance. It was just so out of character for him.

Disdain? 

Normally if I refuse it is because I am tired. And then we come together in the morning.


----------



## jld

GTdad said:


> Two ways to look at that:
> 
> 1) If true, then books like MMSLP strive to do exactly that, although we can obviously bicker endlessly on MMSLP's ability to do so.
> 
> 2) I'm inclined to think that it's not necessarily true, based on the number of women here bemoaning sexless marriages. If a woman is strictly reactive to her man, it's difficult to imagine why it is that they'd have a problem with whatever sexual frequency the husband decides on.


I think that is the way it often ends up for those gals. Not sure how many actually leave. And there are fewer women coming here for that than men, as far as I have ever seen, anyway.

For how much a man can inspire his wife, it probably depends on how much influence the man has in the marriage. If he does not have much, it may indeed fall to his wife to fix things. He may not be able to inspire her.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Like you said, our wiring has not changed in the last 100 years.


Really?

Why do I have the feeling that 100 years ago LD women wouldn't be able to get away with a fraction of what they're getting away with today?


----------



## 2ntnuf

john117 said:


> "Can offer" or "want to offer"???


Women don't have to be aroused to have sex. Men do. Guess what? She controls the sexual health of the marriage. If she isn't turning him on and neither have a health issue, it isn't his fault.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Really?
> 
> Why do I have the feeling that 100 years ago LD women wouldn't be able to get away with a fraction of what they're getting away with today?


Because then marital rape was legal.


----------



## jld

2ntnuf said:


> Women don't have to be aroused to have sex. Men do. Guess what? She controls the sexual health of the marriage. If she isn't turning him on and neither have a health issue, it isn't his fault.


Does she care?


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> I was surprised. And I did need some reassurance. It was just so out of character for him.
> 
> Disdain?
> 
> Normally if I refuse it is because I am tired. And then we come together in the morning.


Yes, disdain. Or how about, on the rare occasion you've decided to engage in a little roll in the hay, a couple minutes in you say "You've got 5 minutes!". One time after one of those I pulled out and said F this S, she didn't like that one bit and WWIII broke out for a while. 

Just trying to bridge the understanding divide here. You sound perfectly normal. Don't evaluate what some of us are saying against you, it won't compute.


----------



## Anon1111

anonmd said:


> Yes, disdain. Or how about, on the rare occasion you've decided to engage in a little roll in the hay, a couple minutes in you say "You've got 5 minutes!". One time after one of those I pulled out and said F this S, she didn't like that one bit and WWIII broke out for a while.
> 
> Just trying to bridge the understanding divide here. You sound perfectly normal. Don't evaluate what some of us are saying against you, it won't compute.


if you haven't lived this stuff, it's pretty hard to imagine.


----------



## 2ntnuf

jld said:


> Does she care?


I don't know. Ask her.


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> Yes, disdain. Or how about, on the rare occasion you've decided to engage in a little roll in the hay, a couple minutes in you say "You've got 5 minutes!". One time after one of those I pulled out and said F this S, she didn't like that one bit and WWIII broke out for a while.
> 
> Just trying to bridge the understanding divide here. You sound perfectly normal. Don't evaluate what some of us are saying against you, it won't compute.


I get that you are seeking understanding of your situation. And my understanding of what several of you are expressing is indeed limited. I attribute that to Dug's inspiring me. 

But it is also true that I have a certain way I think relationships should be, like coming together physically frequently. So I am contributing, too, even when I may not realize it.


----------



## jld

2ntnuf said:


> I don't know. Ask her.


John117, it is your wife we are talking about, right?


----------



## Anon1111

I'm curious regarding women's thoughts on the idea that they automatically lose sexual interest in monogamous cohabiting relationships after a period of a few years.

there seems to be pretty compelling scientific evidence that this is the case.

it seems to happen in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships among women

this would seem to indicate that if a man wants to maintain sexual interest with a woman for the longest possible time, he should not be monogamous with her and not live with her.


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> if you haven't lived this stuff, it's pretty hard to imagine.


Anon, it's not like I have never wanted Dug to finish quickly. I just can't imagine his getting upset about it.


----------



## 2ntnuf

anonmd said:


> Yes, disdain. Or how about, on the rare occasion you've decided to engage in a little roll in the hay, a couple minutes in you say "You've got 5 minutes!". *One time after one of those I pulled out and said F this S, she didn't like that one bit and WWIII broke out for a while.
> *
> Just trying to bridge the understanding divide here. You sound perfectly normal. Don't evaluate what some of us are saying against you, it won't compute.


Edit: Made a mistake on this one. I guess this post would be for @Anon1111 ? If your wife says, "You've got 5 minutes!". Sorry, I got confused. end edit.

Try this next time.

One time after one of those I pulled out and said, "You know what honey? I think I'd rather have a bj."


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> Anon, it's not like I have never wanted Dug to finish quickly. I just can't imagine his getting upset about it.


again, try rejecting him a couple of times a week for the next year and see how cool he is with it.


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> I'm curious regarding women's thoughts on the idea that they automatically lose sexual interest in monogamous cohabiting relationships after a period of a few years.
> 
> there seems to be pretty compelling scientific evidence that this is the case.
> 
> it seems to happen in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships among women
> 
> this would seem to indicate that if a man wants to maintain sexual interest with a woman for the longest possible time, he should not be monogamous with her and not live with her.


If anything, I think I am more inspired by him now than ever. Kids growing up and being less demanding allows us more intimate time together.

Also, I think it depends on how the relationship starts. I definitely was attracted to Dug, right from the first moment I saw him. But I would not have married anyone just based on physical attraction. Lots of other things had to be there, too.

I definitely saw marriage as a transaction. There were certain things he was offering, and certain things he expected. I was okay with that, and have tried to please him.

He did not see marriage that way. He truly loved me, right from the start. He had a vision, and he saw me as a big part of that. 

It really helps to have one mature, emotionally stable spouse.


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> again, try rejecting him a couple of times a week for the next year and see how cool he is with it.


No way. I do what I feel in my heart. And rejecting him is not in my heart.

Honestly, I think that is a really mean suggestion, Anon.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> No way. I do what I feel in my heart. And rejecting him is not in my heart.
> 
> Honestly, I think that is a really mean suggestion, Anon.


I think what he is trying to say is unless you have lived it then you have no idea. 

It is like me saying I know what it's like to be black man when i'm a 43 year old white man


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> Anon, it's not like I have never wanted Dug to finish quickly. I just can't imagine his getting upset about it.


I think, and I may be wrong, the difference is this. Their wives actually utter the words "you have 5 minutes" or "aren't you done yet"... I suspect you haven't said those words to Dug? Wanting him to finish, but not saying those words is not the same as "Good Lord, will you just hurry up, already??" There have been times that my husband has gotten frustrated because it just was NOT happening for me. I assured him it was ok (and it truly WAS!) so he could finish. I can assure you that if I ever said to my husband what @anonmd wife said, he would definitely be angry... and wouldn't finish. I can't even imagine telling him things like that. I can, however, relate to what you shared about wanting my husband to finish quickly. So I get what you are saying, there. I hope you understand where I am coming from with the comparison? I can't imagine my husband getting upset about my wanting him to finish quickly, either. But, it's about how it is presented. Ya know?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> No way. I do what I feel in my heart. And rejecting him is not in my heart.
> 
> Honestly, I think that is a really mean suggestion, Anon.


It's a thought experiment, jld. I know you're not really going to do it. Just consider what would happen if you did.

the point of course is that it's easy to say your husband is this knight in shining armor, but he has not experience the sh-t that some of us are talking about.

I know you think that he's not experiencing it because he is different, but there is no way to know this for sure.

I can guarantee you that if he was rejected by you over and over and over again, he would not appear to be a knight in shining armor.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Because then marital rape was legal.


How about the fear of ending up in the street?


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> If anything, I think I am more inspired by him now than ever. Kids growing up and being less demanding allows us more intimate time together.
> 
> Also, I think it depends on how the relationship starts. I definitely was attracted to Dug, right from the first moment I saw him. But I would not have married anyone just based on physical attraction. Lots of other things had to be there, too.
> 
> I definitely saw marriage as a transaction. There were certain things he was offering, and certain things he expected. I was okay with that, and have tried to please him.
> 
> He did not see marriage that way. He truly loved me, right from the start. He had a vision, and he saw me as a big part of that.
> 
> It really helps to have one mature, emotionally stable spouse.


do you believe your marriage is exceptional?

do you think that, on average, the typical woman loses interest in her spouse after the initial few years of monogamy/cohabitation?

if so, what if anything should be done about this phenomenon?


----------



## Maricha75

Anon1111 said:


> I'm curious regarding women's thoughts on the idea that they automatically lose sexual interest in monogamous cohabiting relationships after a period of a few years.
> 
> there seems to be pretty compelling scientific evidence that this is the case.
> 
> it seems to happen in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships among women
> 
> *this would seem to indicate that if a man wants to maintain sexual interest with a woman for the longest possible time, he should not be monogamous with her and not live with her.*


The part in bold WOULD make me lose interest. I wouldn't be with a man in a non-manogamous relationship.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Anon1111

Maricha75 said:


> The part in bold WOULD make me lose interest. I wouldn't be with a man in a non-manogamous relationship.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


that makes sense to me.

however-- and this is not directed at you as an individual-- if this phenomenon is real and if most women feel the same was as you do regarding commitment, then it would seem that the result is that there would be a lot of LTRs in which there ends up being a desire mismatch

this would be a problem for both men and women. 

again, the evidence suggests that there may be an inherent compromise between longtime commitment/cohabitation and desire.


----------



## anonmd

BINGO! You've got it. 

And, don't get me wrong here - there are other occasions from time to time that are more loving encounters and she's had enough and speaks up, as she should with an ENTIRELY different tone. And we stop, and I'm not upset at all, since you know - I care about her. 



Maricha75 said:


> I think, and I may be wrong, the difference is this. Their wives actually utter the words "you have 5 minutes" or "aren't you done yet"... I suspect you haven't said those words to Dug? Wanting him to finish, but not saying those words is not the same as "Good Lord, will you just hurry up, already??" There have been times that my husband has gotten frustrated because it just was NOT happening for me. I assured him it was ok (and it truly WAS!) so he could finish. I can assure you that if I ever said to my husband what @anonmd wife said, he would definitely be angry... and wouldn't finish. I can't even imagine telling him things like that. I can, however, relate to what you shared about wanting my husband to finish quickly. So I get what you are saying, there. I hope you understand where I am coming from with the comparison? I can't imagine my husband getting upset about my wanting him to finish quickly, either. But, it's about how it is presented. Ya know?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> Really?
> 
> Why do I have the feeling that 100 years ago LD women wouldn't be able to get away with a fraction of what they're getting away with today?


Yes John, a hundred or more years ago married women basically had to have sex on demand. They had no choice. And they were taught that they had no choice. Of course when it came to this, it was starfish sex at best.

Shoot doctors and 'scientists' used to tell both men and women that women do not enjoy sex. It is just something that they do for their husband and to get pregnant. A woman or organsimed was diagnosed with 'hysteria' and could end up in a mental institution if she did it often.

And yes, a good number of women gave into sex that was one sided most of the time because their choice was that or to be thrown on the street.

It's still like this for women in many parts of the world, even today.

I am sure that there were couples who had a decent sex life, but for a lot of women sex was not a good thing.. because society had verbally/emotionally beat their sexual desire out of them.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> John117, it is your wife we are talking about, right?


She doesn't care. Not for my sake. For her sake. 

Seven years ago she was diagnosed with BPD. She asked if you can die from it. Of course not, I said. She shrugged it off like a broken fingernail.

If it's anything physical she would be off to the Mayo Clinic stat. For minor things like those who cares


----------



## john117

Anon1111 said:


> again, try rejecting him a couple of times a week for the next year and see how cool he is with it.


Better yet. Every day for the next few, well... 

When we tell y'all that you simply can't relate, that's what it is. Exactly that.

Pull this off for a year and if you're still married then we can revisit.


----------



## 2ntnuf

john117 said:


> She doesn't care. Not for my sake. For her sake.
> 
> Seven years ago she was diagnosed with BPD. She asked if you can die from it. Of course not, I said. She shrugged it off like a broken fingernail.
> 
> If it's anything physical she would be off to the Mayo Clinic stat. For minor things like those who cares


John, is she on meds and in counseling?


----------



## john117

jld said:


> No way. I do what I feel in my heart. And rejecting him is not in my heart.
> 
> Honestly, I think that is a really mean suggestion, Anon.


It's not a suggestion. I know you would not do it. It's a hypothetical situation. You're speaking from the land of unicorns in this aspect, having accumulated or handed out as many rejections in 20 years as I have job offer rejections


----------



## norajane

Anon1111 said:


> I'm curious regarding women's thoughts on the idea that they automatically lose sexual interest in monogamous cohabiting relationships after a period of a few years.
> 
> there seems to be pretty compelling scientific evidence that this is the case.
> 
> it seems to happen in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships among women
> 
> this would seem to indicate that if a man wants to maintain sexual interest with a woman for the longest possible time, he should not be monogamous with her and not live with her.


I would say correlation is not causation.

I would look at that and say, wow, we'd better make the time and effort to keep the home fires burning by continuing to date each other and make time to maintain the emotional, intellectual, and physical intimacy that is rocking right now. And I'd want to make sure we didn't slide into taking each other for granted or treating each other like crap.

I would look at that the longer people live together, the more opportunity to create resentment and bad relationships which lead to a bad sex life. 

I would not assume living together causes a bad sex life in a vacuum.


----------



## john117

2ntnuf said:


> John, is she on meds and in counseling?












Of course not. If nothing else, she's regressing quite a bit. A few years ago when I had hope of fixing the marriage, I spent a lot of time talking to her, working with her on basic things, pretty much cognitive behavioral therapy stuff. Seemed to keep things in order, but no improvement in the marriage. 

A couple years ago once I decided I'm gone in may 2017 I pretty much stopped most interaction with her. Not sure of that's causing the regression but at this point it's not my problem. 

Here's my view for now...


----------



## Anon1111

EleGirl said:


> Yes John, a hundred or more years ago married women basically had to have sex on demand. They had no choice. And they were taught that they had no choice. Of course when it came to this, it was starfish sex at best.
> 
> Shoot doctors and 'scientists' used to tell both men and women that women do not enjoy sex. It is just something that they do for their husband and to get pregnant. A woman or organsimed was diagnosed with 'hysteria' and could end up in a mental institution if she did it often.
> 
> And yes, a good number of women gave into sex that was one sided most of the time because their choice was that or to be thrown on the street.
> 
> It's still like this for women in many parts of the world, even today.
> 
> I am sure that there were couples who had a decent sex life, but for a lot of women sex was not a good thing.. because society had verbally/emotionally beat their sexual desire out of them.


that's the official history and I'm sure it actually applied for a lot of people.

at the same time, there were also still illegitimate pregnancies, prostitution, affairs, orgies and all of the other stuff

the world does not change all that much


----------



## Anon1111

norajane said:


> I would say correlation is not causation.
> 
> I would look at that and say, wow, we'd better make the time and effort to keep the home fires burning by continuing to date each other and make time to maintain the emotional, intellectual, and physical intimacy that is rocking right now. And I'd want to make sure we didn't slide into taking each other for granted or treating each other like crap.
> 
> I would look at that the longer people live together, the more opportunity to create resentment and bad relationships which lead to a bad sex life.
> 
> I would not assume living together causes a bad sex life in a vacuum.


this certainly makes sense to me.

what is interesting though is that there seems to be many cases where the women actually want their desire to be there but it just isn't. several examples of these women are quoted in the nytimes article up-thread. 

the fact that they actually want to have desire seems to indicate that there is not a resentment issue.

I totally agree that these situations are often rife with resentment, but it's not clear to me which comes first-- the loss of desire or the resentment.


----------



## 2ntnuf

So sorry, @john117. I personally think DBT is better than CBT, for the more difficult circumstances.


----------



## norajane

I think the women in that article are experiencing LD - their lack of desire is based on physical causes. That is the case for some subset of people, and that is not related to long term relationships but hormones or other physical wiring. 

Otherwise? I believe the resentments start first and that leads to a lack of desire for sex and many other interactions with their spouse, AND that those resentments were a long time in forming so there is no easy fix and especially no quick fix. Unfortunately, many only see the end result (lack of sex) and mistakenly believe that is the main problem rather than a symptom of the (probably) many-layered issues in their relationship, and then THAT leads to resentments.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Honestly, whatever the reasons, I don't think it's possible to get back those feelings, ever. Something a little different, maybe. It just won't ever be the same as it was. 

It's over when that happens.


----------



## anonmd

Then there is bait and switch. 

Every one of our issues originates with her change in attitude after walking down the isle. Every one. 

Now, is there a giant snowball of building and reinforcing resentments on both our parts that made the problem grow over the years, yeah absolutely. Do I own a bunch of issues / poor choices in hindsight that continued to make it worse, yeah. But it all originated with the attitude switch. 



norajane said:


> I think the women in that article are experiencing LD - their lack of desire is based on physical causes. That is the case for some subset of people, and that is not related to long term relationships but hormones or other physical wiring.
> 
> Otherwise? I believe the resentments start first and that leads to a lack of desire for sex and many other interactions with their spouse, AND that those resentments were a long time in forming so there is no easy fix and especially no quick fix. Unfortunately, many only see the end result (lack of sex) and mistakenly believe that is the main problem rather than a symptom of the (probably) many-layered issues in their relationship, and then THAT leads to resentments.


----------



## Married but Happy

anonmd said:


> Then there is bait and switch.
> 
> Every one of our issues originates with her change in attitude after walking down the isle. Every one.
> 
> Now, is there a giant snowball of building and reinforcing resentments on both our parts that made the problem grow over the years, yeah absolutely. Do I own a bunch of issues / poor choices in hindsight that continued to make it worse, yeah. But it all originated with the attitude switch.


That describes the trajectory of my first marriage. For 2 decades I thought it was me, or normal - all those marriage jokes implied that my experience was normal. Then I finally figured out it was her, my IC agreed, and I was gone soon after.

She was either naturally LD, or that combined with early religious indoctrination. From what I can tell from the little contact we've had since (and remarks my son has made over the years), she hasn't changed even though she remarried eventually.


----------



## Buddy400

Lila said:


> Reading all these posts about mmslp I can't help wonder if there will ever be a married woman's sex life primer.
> 
> If a sexless marriage caused by a wife is difficult to overcome, then a sexless marriage caused by a husband is impossible.
> 
> Lol, i just realized the title of the female equivalent of mmslp - 'the married woman's guide to divorce'.
> 
> Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


Would it be better for these guys to just divorce?

Or is it OK to try something (mmslp) first?

Personally, I wouldn't try mmslp. I'm not interested in gaming my wife constantly for sex. I'd try to talk it out. If that didn't work, I'd go straight to divorce.

But if some guys want to give this a try before they file, I'm ok with that.


----------



## Buddy400

Anon1111 said:


> *I'm curious regarding women's thoughts on the idea that they automatically lose sexual interest in monogamous cohabiting relationships after a period of a few years.*


Me too. Tried to start a thread focused on just that but it got sidetracked.

I guess one question would be "for what percentage of women is this true?".

It's certainly not ALL women, but I'd guess it's a pretty high percentage.


----------



## Buddy400

Maricha75 said:


> The part in bold WOULD make me lose interest. I wouldn't be with a man in a non-manogamous relationship.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I think it's possible that many women* think* they'd react same way you would but would actually do the opposite. 

What do you think?


----------



## Lila

Buddy400 said:


> Would it be better for these guys to just divorce?
> 
> Or is it OK to try something (mmslp) first?
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't try mmslp. I'm not interested in gaming my wife constantly for sex. I'd try to talk it out. If that didn't work, I'd go straight to divorce.
> 
> But if some guys want to give this a try before they file, I'm ok with that.


My post wasn't meant to imply that men shouldn't try everything prior to divorce.

My post was only stating that women stuck in sexless marriages don't have the option of a MMSLP equivalent to fix it. They have one move - Divorce.


----------



## Buddy400

norajane said:


> I think the women in that article are experiencing LD - their lack of desire is based on physical causes. That is the case for some subset of people, and that is not related to long term relationships but hormones or other physical wiring.


But, they did enjoy sex in the beginning.

One women found her libido lacking; divorced; lots of great sex with the new boyfriend and then, after a couple of years...........


----------



## Buddy400

Lila said:


> My post wasn't meant to imply that men shouldn't try everything prior to divorce.
> 
> My post was only stating that women stuck in sexless marriages don't have the option of a MMSLP equivalent to fix it. They have one move - Divorce.


Yeah, I saw that in your follow up post.

I try to read all the way to the end of a thread before replying, but that's hard to stick with :frown2:


----------



## EleGirl

Anon1111 said:


> that's the official history and I'm sure it actually applied for a lot of people.
> 
> at the same time, there were also still illegitimate pregnancies, prostitution, affairs, orgies and all of the other stuff
> 
> the world does not change all that much


Yes, not all women fell for the crap that women do not enjoy sex. 

But the social norm was that women were taught that women do not enjoy sex. So a good wife would not give into 'hysteria' least she be deemed insane.

Illegitimate pregnancies could mean that a couple who really enjoyed sex got it on. Or it could mean that some girl no worthy of marriage was taken advantage of .. say by her employer, landlord, etc.

There has always been an underclass of women that provided men, to include married men, with things that their 'good wives' would not be expected to do sexually. Generally these women were looked down on by everyone, to include the men who used them.

Being a prostitute does not mean that the prostitute enjoys sex. I means that they have found that they can make money by sexually servicing men. I cannot think of anything more of a sexual turn off than 'sexually servicing men'. disgusting really

Affairs, I'd hope that women in affairs enjoyed the sex.


----------



## Duguesclin

jerry123 said:


> God bless you then...*but I'd love to hear your husbands take on this. *
> 
> 
> In my marriage, if I did that my wife would feel like a entitled princess. And think the only reason I'm doing that would be to have sex.
> 
> See, wives are not all the same in marriages. Every situation is different.
> 
> As for OP, we don't really know his whole situation. We are getting his view. So in turn he is getting advice based on that.
> 
> My advice to him would be just what one poster stated.
> 
> Work on himself first!! Once he maximizes his sex rank he WILL draw attention from other women. And if that other women does not include his wife, he should make an exit plan because he's in for a world of hurt if he continues on his current path.
> 
> I do agree he should do some investigating on possibly his wife having some sort of affair. Don't automatically assume but rule it out.
> 
> With him working 80 hours a week, which is crazy, and her having all that time, there's just too many opportunities for her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do feel responsible for the marriage. However, it does not mean that I do all the work or heavy lifting. It does not mean that JLD does nothing either. She is a very big contributor to this marriage.

The buck stops with me. When something is not right, I am not sitting around wondering whether JLD has done enough or is pulling her fair share. Neither she nor I have time for that. 

Early in our relationship I shared my plan. She agreed with it and we moved ahead. We have made modifications along the way, compromised in many areas, but we followed the main direction set earlier.

Guys need a plan. Sitting around complaining about their wives is not a plan.


----------



## john117

2ntnuf said:


> So sorry, @john117. I personally think DBT is better than CBT, for the more difficult circumstances.


I know. It's just that I've learned enough of CBT in grad school to apply it, but not DBT...


----------



## jerry123

Duguesclin said:


> I do feel responsible for the marriage. However, it does not mean that I do all the work or heavy lifting. It does not mean that JLD does nothing either. She is a very big contributor to this marriage.
> 
> The buck stops with me. When something is not right, I am not sitting around wondering whether JLD has done enough or is pulling her fair share. Neither she nor I have time for that.
> 
> Early in our relationship I shared my plan. She agreed with it and we moved ahead. We have made modifications along the way, compromised in many areas, but we followed the main direction set earlier.
> 
> Guys need a plan. Sitting around complaining about their wives is not a plan.





I totally understand that....its just your wife's post came out to me that she contributes nothing to the marriage and its 100% your job to keep your marriage going.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> Then there is bait and switch.
> 
> Every one of our issues originates with her change in attitude after walking down the isle. Every one.
> 
> Now, is there a giant snowball of building and reinforcing resentments on both our parts that made the problem grow over the years, yeah absolutely. Do I own a bunch of issues / poor choices in hindsight that continued to make it worse, yeah. But it all originated with the attitude switch.


Do you see yourself as having no influence over her attitude? You feel completely powerless in regard to how that attitude change may have come about?


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Do you see yourself as having no influence over her attitude? You feel completely powerless in regard to how that attitude change may have come about?


I'm more concerned that (in my case at least  ) SHE has no influence over her own attitude... She is who she is, hates herself for it, and everything else snowballs from there. 

In other words, if you can't influence her, chances are she can't influence herself.


----------



## Married but Happy

jld said:


> Do you see yourself as having no influence over her attitude? You feel completely powerless in regard to how that attitude change may have come about?


I can tell you that in my first marriage, nothing I tried resulted in any attitude change. Effectively, I had no influence. My only power was divorce, and finally I applied it.


----------



## Begin again

There could be lots of reasons a woman doesn't want sex from her husband anymore, and most have already been stated here.

Check each one off the list:
1. Is she harboring resentment? Is yes, deal with it. If no, proceed to 2.
2. Are you physically attractive? If no, get in shape. If yes, that still doesn't mean she will just Want you.

Here's where it gets tricky. Most women can be sexual creatures. If they are with a man who values them and who keeps her interest, she can want sex a lot. But.... If you don't value her, don't do things to keep her sexual interest, then you probably won't have a sexual wife. 

Speaking for me, I need him to do certain things for me to stay interested. First, be confident in who you are. The look in your eyes will give you away. Be proud of who you are and hold yourself as such.

Next, keep the tension. If all you talk about with your wife is work, kids, finances, and responsibilities, then just expect her to drop that basket of laundry because the kids are asleep and there's time, you are going to kill things. If you don't keep the tension, then you can't go from 0 to 60 in the bedroom.

That's something I read in here a lot that I disagree with: responsive desire. That's the idea that you can just get a woman going in the bedroom and she'll get into it. Well, she will to some extent, but this will NOT change her sex drive. At all!

What will? Foreplay. Flirt, tease, engage her. Foreplay starts the minute after the last orgasm; if you think it's the 3 minutes of kissing before you are naked, you have a lot to learn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I'm more concerned that (in my case at least  ) SHE has no influence over her own attitude... She is who she is, hates herself for it, and everything else snowballs from there.
> 
> In other words, if you can't influence her, chances are she can't influence herself.


You may have more influence, or capacity for influence, than you realize, John. All that self-hate she feels could be counteracted by love from you.


----------



## john117

If it only were this simple...


----------



## jld

Married but Happy said:


> I can tell you that in my first marriage,* nothing I tried *resulted in any attitude change. Effectively, I had no influence. My only power was divorce, and finally I applied it.


What did you try?


----------



## Married but Happy

jld said:


> What did you try?


Talking, research, kindness, romance, compassion, fitness, self-help books, IC, several rounds of MC, and my own version of what amounts to NMMNG before that book even existed.


----------



## jld

Married but Happy said:


> Talking, research, kindness, romance, compassion, fitness, self-help books, IC, several rounds of MC, and my own version of what amounts to NMMNG before that book even existed.


Was she also poly?


----------



## Begin again

Married but Happy said:


> Talking, research, kindness, romance, compassion, fitness, self-help books, IC, several rounds of MC, and my own version of what amounts to NMMNG before that book even existed.


There absolutely is a point of no return, especially for women, when it comes to a bad marriage/relationship. If you've gone past this point, resentment cannot be overcome and no amount of the above will change her desire for you. The trick is to never let it get that far.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Begin again

jld said:


> Was she also poly?


Yeah... If my guy wanted that, he'd have to find a new woman. I'm like a 4 year old! I don't know how to share - at least I don't share my man with anybody!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Here's an example of failing in self influence... Yesterday we had a big dinner with DD1 and today J2 proclaims she needs to go on a bike ride to burn it off. 

A quick look at three different weather forecasts all said rain starts at 10:00 AM. Regardless, J2 is headed for a bike ride, never mind a ten year old can read the forecast and see the coming storm. 

If she won't allow herself to be influenced on a trivial subject by three independent sources, what makes you think she will listen to her husband or kids or anyone else?


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Here's an example of failing in self influence... Yesterday we had a big dinner with DD1 and today J2 proclaims she needs to go on a bike ride to burn it off.
> 
> A quick look at three different weather forecasts all said rain starts at 10:00 AM. Regardless, J2 is headed for a bike ride, never mind a ten year old can read the forecast and see the coming storm.
> 
> If she won't allow herself to be influenced on a trivial subject by three independent sources, what makes you think she will listen to her husband or kids or anyone else?


You keep thinking in practical terms, like protecting her from the weather or putting gas in her car. I am talking in emotional terms.


----------



## Married but Happy

jld said:


> Was she also poly?


No, and back then I wasn't either. That had nothing to do with the problem.

I suspect she had a combination of issues: naturally LD, religious indoctrination that made sex shameful, and perhaps she married me for a checklist rather than love. Once she got me, she didn't need to do anything to keep me. Eventually, she wasn't able to.


----------



## Married but Happy

Begin again said:


> There absolutely is a point of no return, especially for women, when it comes to a bad marriage/relationship. If you've gone past this point, resentment cannot be overcome and no amount of the above will change her desire for you. The trick is to never let it get that far.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The point of no return was very, very clearly the day we got married. She changed _immediately_. An unambiguous bait-and-switch, in retrospect.


----------



## Married but Happy

Begin again said:


> Yeah... If my guy wanted that, he'd have to find a new woman. I'm like a 4 year old! I don't know how to share - at least I don't share my man with anybody!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As I said, I wasn't poly then. WE are now - in philosophy, but no longer in practice.


----------



## Begin again

john117 said:


> Here's an example of failing in self influence... Yesterday we had a big dinner with DD1 and today J2 proclaims she needs to go on a bike ride to burn it off.
> 
> A quick look at three different weather forecasts all said rain starts at 10:00 AM. Regardless, J2 is headed for a bike ride, never mind a ten year old can read the forecast and see the coming storm.
> 
> If she won't allow herself to be influenced on a trivial subject by three independent sources, what makes you think she will listen to her husband or kids or anyone else?


Natural consequences are the best here. She doesn't have to listen to anyone, but she will be faced with whatever happens. Most battles are not worth fighting.

As for influencing her in other ways, the same thing applies. Fight her on the necessity of sex = no sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Married but Happy said:


> As I said, I wasn't poly then. WE are now - in philosophy, *but no longer in practice*.


You have stopped seeing other women?


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I think what he is trying to say is unless you have lived it then you have no idea.
> 
> It is like me saying I know what it's like to be black man when i'm a 43 year old white man


Then wouldn't it make sense to study couples who have never been sexless, and see what they might be doing differently than you are?


----------



## Married but Happy

jld said:


> You have stopped seeing other women?


No. We still have an open relationship, but haven't encountered anyone suitable for a romantic/poly relationship so are no longer looking.


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> I think, and I may be wrong, the difference is this. Their wives actually utter the words "you have 5 minutes" or "aren't you done yet"... I suspect you haven't said those words to Dug? Wanting him to finish, but not saying those words is not the same as "Good Lord, will you just hurry up, already??" There have been times that my husband has gotten frustrated because it just was NOT happening for me. I assured him it was ok (and it truly WAS!) so he could finish. I can assure you that if I ever said to my husband what @anonmd wife said, he would definitely be angry... and wouldn't finish. I can't even imagine telling him things like that. I can, however, relate to what you shared about wanting my husband to finish quickly. So I get what you are saying, there. I hope you understand where I am coming from with the comparison? I can't imagine my husband getting upset about my wanting him to finish quickly, either. But, it's about how it is presented. Ya know?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Okay, so it's the presentation. But it is still her genuine feeling. Should she hide her feelings from him? Wouldn't it be better for him to know exactly how she feels, and address that?


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> It's a thought experiment, jld. I know you're not really going to do it. Just consider what would happen if you did.
> 
> the point of course is that it's easy to say your husband is this knight in shining armor, but he has not experience the sh-t that some of us are talking about.
> 
> I know you think that he's not experiencing it because he is different, but there is no way to know this for sure.
> 
> I can guarantee you that if he was rejected by you over and over and over again, he would not appear to be a knight in shining armor.


No, he would not tolerate a sexless marriage. I would hear about it, believe me.

Thing is, I too think a sexless marriage would be weird. It just sounds totally abnormal to me. Really strange, bizarre. It just does not compute in my head. And that is probably part of why we have never been sexless.

I want a good marriage, Anon. I want to do everything I reasonably can to make it so. It just makes my own life easier. 

I have a good situation and I want to keep it that way. I don't want to mess it up.


----------



## jld

Married but Happy said:


> No. We still have an open relationship, but haven't encountered anyone suitable for a romantic/poly relationship so are no longer looking.


I did not realize you were both looking to be involved with the same person. I thought you had an FWB, but your wife was basically monogamous with you.


----------



## Married but Happy

jld said:


> I did not realize you were both looking to be involved with the same person. I thought you had an FWB, but your wife was basically monogamous with you.


Not necessarily the same person - we could (theoretically) each have our own separate poly relationships. We haven't found anyone who suits that since our early years together, where we each had another relationship.

We both have long-term FWB; I just see mine more often than she sees hers.


----------



## tech-novelist

jack_medley said:


> Can someone please explain why this happens and why its so common?
> 
> After yet another unsuccessful attempt to seduce my wife, my confidence level is at an all-time low. she literally recoiled in disgust the last time I ran my hand up her thigh. I'm stuck in a sexless marriage and it's driving me crazy...


Yes. Read "Married Man's Sex Life", available on Amazon.
Also read "No More Mr. Nice Guy".
And don't tell her you are doing this!

Here's the short answer: women's sexual response is triggered by dominance. Doing whatever a woman wants disgusts her because if you can't even tell her "no", how will you protect her from predators? This is an evolutionary development that may not be appropriate today but must be understood and worked with nonetheless.


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> Okay, so it's the presentation. But it is still her genuine feeling. Should she hide her feelings from him? Wouldn't it be better for him to know exactly how she feels, and address that?


I do not think what she said was her feeling at all. Applying my current understanding now, she is incapable of a reactive spontaneous sexual thought and must - must, maintain control. So, at the time there was some sort of internal conversation with herself in her head along the lines of 'yes, it's been 4 or 5 weeks and OK -today I'll have sex. But I'm in control so you've got 5 minutes'. 

It was not, I don't want to do this so hurry up, it's control. After all, once she set it all up (the I'm in control part) she got really pissed off when I rejected the whole thing. 

It's all mental, the physiological response stuff works. At least until the last couple years, menopause is now screwing with that pretty badly.


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> I do not think what she said was her feeling at all. Applying my current understanding now, she is incapable of a reactive spontaneous sexual thought and must - must, maintain control. So, at the time there was some sort of internal conversation with herself in her head along the lines of 'yes, it's been 4 or 5 weeks and OK -today I'll have sex. But I'm in control so you've got 5 minutes'.
> 
> It was not, I don't want to do this so hurry up, it's control. After all, once she set it all up (the I'm in control part) she got really pissed off when I rejected the whole thing.
> 
> It's all mental, the physiological response stuff works. At least until the last couple years, menopause is now screwing with that pretty badly.


Have you ever openly discussed with her that you think she sees this as a "control" issue?


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> Have you ever openly discussed with her that you think she sees this as a "control" issue?


Yes, after several seconds of facial contortions, which says to me she was really thinking about it, she agrees. Both the need for control and the inability to have a spontaneous sexual thought.


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> Yes, after several seconds of facial contortions, which says to me she was really thinking about it, she agrees. Both the need for control and the inability to have a spontaneous sexual thought.


What else did she say beyond agreeing with you?


----------



## anonmd

Not much. No deep understanding offered as to why. There are a few FOO issues lurking but she does not offer that as any sort of excuse. There was something I was doing she 'hates', ok -don't do that anymore. For now at least, I'm done ever initiating anything beyond a hug or kiss, you want control - you got it.

We came to an understanding, she now has the ball. Minimum level defined, if she falls short she'll bring it up and try to address it unless there is a real physical thing going on. It's been a while, seems to be working OK. She is happier and less guarded.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> You keep thinking in practical terms, like protecting her from the weather or putting gas in her car. I am talking in emotional terms.


And you keep forgetting she has no emotional needs... Pure and simple.


----------



## john117

Begin again said:


> Natural consequences are the best here. She doesn't have to listen to anyone, but she will be faced with whatever happens. Most battles are not worth fighting.
> 
> As for influencing her in other ways, the same thing applies. Fight her on the necessity of sex = no sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pretty much. I was fully prepared to let her go today and get soaked midway but luckily the storm hit when she was getting ready... 

Needless to say the next time this happens there won't be any memory of it so back to square one


----------



## Begin again

john117 said:


> Pretty much. I was fully prepared to let her go today and get soaked midway but luckily the storm hit when she was getting ready...
> 
> Needless to say the next time this happens there won't be any memory of it so back to square one


Well, I just wouldn't care. What I've said in the past is this: do what you want, but if you get hit by lightning I'm going to do the "I told you so dance."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Begin again

john117 said:


> And you keep forgetting she has no emotional needs... Pure and simple.


I have some ocean front property in Ohio you can buy cheap...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

jld said:


> It really helps to have one mature, emotionally stable spouse.


In a sexless marriage, it's pretty much guaranteed that one of those is lacking. I'd think you need two of them to have a good marriage.


----------



## jld

Hopeful Cynic said:


> In a sexless marriage, it's pretty much guaranteed that one of those is lacking. I'd think you need two of them to have a good marriage.


Two is better. But at least one is required.


----------



## john117

Begin again said:


> I have some ocean front property in Ohio you can buy cheap...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Does it have city utilities and high speed internet?


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Two is better. But at least one is required.


You need to expand your horizons, Grasshopper 

I wonder if you've ever experienced a truly emotionally unstable person for a prolonged period of time.


----------



## Begin again

john117 said:


> Does it have city utilities and high speed internet?


Sure does! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tech-novelist

jb02157 said:


> I agree with your whole post, however, your list has one glaring mistake in it. The absolute #1 thing that attracts women is
> 
> MONEY
> 
> The one thing that causes the most arguments in a marriage is money. If a guy can supply his wife/girlfriend with an unending supply of money there would be no problems. To get their men to spend money on them or on what they want, they use sex as a means of control.


I don't agree with this; money is necessary but not sufficient. Always being on the edge of financial disaster is going to cause most wives to be much less interested in sex with their husbands, but there are plenty of men who provide very well financially for their wives and still don't get any sex, and plenty of men who provide reasonably well and get quite a bit of sex.


----------



## tech-novelist

EleGirl said:


> Manipulator is a mild description of him.
> 
> By the way. That book I suggested... most of the men said that they were having sex outside the marriage. They were just not having sex with their wives.
> 
> So.. if a man is not having sex with his wife.. the old saying must hold.. if he is not having it with you, he's getting it somewhere.
> 
> 
> ETA: oddly, I got an apology letter from him earlier this year. 20 years after our divorce he apologized for the things that he did. .....


I got an apology from my ex-wife for her cruel behavior toward me, years after I divorced her.


----------



## tech-novelist

john117 said:


> Really?
> 
> Why do I have the feeling that 100 years ago LD women wouldn't be able to get away with a fraction of what they're getting away with today?


That is true, but not due to a change in wiring.

It is due to a change in culture.

IOW, the wiring is the same, but the culture can either heavily discourage such behavior (by insisting that men have a right to sex with their wives) or encourage it (by letting wives refuse sex with no consequences).


----------



## tech-novelist

Anon1111 said:


> I'm curious regarding women's thoughts on the idea that they automatically lose sexual interest in monogamous cohabiting relationships after a period of a few years.
> 
> there seems to be pretty compelling scientific evidence that this is the case.
> 
> it seems to happen in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships among women
> 
> this would seem to indicate that if a man wants to maintain sexual interest with a woman for the longest possible time, he should not be monogamous with her and not live with her.


It is also possible to keep up an active sex life when monogamous, but the man is probably going to have to do most of the work, and the woman is going to have to cooperate.


----------



## tech-novelist

EleGirl said:


> Yes John, a hundred or more years ago married women basically had to have sex on demand. They had no choice. And they were taught that they had no choice. Of course when it came to this, it was starfish sex at best.
> 
> Shoot doctors and 'scientists' used to tell both men and women that women do not enjoy sex. It is just something that they do for their husband and to get pregnant. A woman or organsimed was diagnosed with 'hysteria' and could end up in a mental institution if she did it often.


Actually, one of the first small electrical devices was a vibrator, used by doctors to *treat *hysteria by giving women orgasms. This was needed because the doctors got tired of doing it by hand. See https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201303/hysteria-and-the-strange-history-vibrators.


----------



## john117

tech-novelist said:


> That is true, but not due to a change in wiring.
> 
> It is due to a change in culture.
> 
> IOW, the wiring is the same, but the culture can either heavily discourage such behavior (by insisting that men have a right to sex with their wives) or encourage it (by letting wives refuse sex with no consequences).


Agreed. Evolutionary biology in action


----------



## EleGirl

Buddy400 said:


> But, they did enjoy sex in the beginning.
> 
> One women found her libido lacking; divorced; lots of great sex with the new boyfriend and then, after a couple of years...........


I 'love' studies that look at behavior pattern that occurs in some people of one gender but does not also look at that same behavior pattern in people of the other gender. This happens in some people of both genders.

There is an interesting book that talks about why some people lose interest in their spouse after some time period. (It does not blame either spouse by the way.)

Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence Paperback – 
by Esther Perel (Author)


----------



## EleGirl

tech-novelist said:


> Actually, one of the first small electrical devices was a vibrator, used by doctors to *treat *hysteria by giving women orgasms. This was needed because the doctors got tired of doing it by hand. See https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201303/hysteria-and-the-strange-history-vibrators.


Yes, hysteria was considered a medical and mental health issue about on the same level as we consider depression today. 

Could you imagine a mental health issue that was defined as men wanting to have sex to completion (having an orgasm)?


----------



## PieceOfSky

EleGirl said:


> There is an interesting book that talks about why some people lose interest in their spouse after some time period. (It does not blame either spouse by the way.)
> 
> Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence Paperback –
> by Esther Perel (Author)


Lovely, thought-provoking book. Convincing presentation of the counterintuitive and unexpected ways love and desire work. Found some of my humanity therein.

Giving it a listen was the last thing I recall asking my wife to do, with any investment in hope on my part. In asking, I emphasized the lack of blame, the compassionate treatment of what must be a common challenge in longterm relationships. (She was not moved to bother with even a chapter.)


----------



## BlueandBlond

Yes....it can be the other way around with the husband not wanting sex and that is the situation I am in. The lack of spending time together away from the kids, leaving the stress from work at work and not bring it home, lack of communication, not talking and explaining why the spouse doesn't want to have sex with you anymore.....very hurtful! It doesn't mean there is someone else in the picture either. But, it really hurts and when enough time has gone by and you are the one trying to get things going and nothing is working, you start to distance yourself from each other. If you can get her to talk and open up, that would be good.


----------



## tech-novelist

EleGirl said:


> Yes, hysteria was considered a medical and mental health issue about on the same level as we consider depression today.
> 
> Could you imagine a mental health issue that was defined as men wanting to have sex to completion (having an orgasm)?


But hysteria was treated by giving them orgasms, so apparently orgasms were the solution, not the problem.


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> No, he would not tolerate a sexless marriage. I would hear about it, believe me.
> 
> Thing is, I too think a sexless marriage would be weird. It just sounds totally abnormal to me. Really strange, bizarre. It just does not compute in my head. And that is probably part of why we have never been sexless.
> 
> I want a good marriage, Anon. I want to do everything I reasonably can to make it so. It just makes my own life easier.
> 
> I have a good situation and I want to keep it that way. I don't want to mess it up.


that's great.

not every woman is the same as you though, obviously.

some women don't prioritize their marriage.


----------



## EllisRedding

Begin again said:


> Here's where it gets tricky. Most women can be sexual creatures. If they are with a man who values them and who keeps her interest, she can want sex a lot. But.... If you don't value her, don't do things to keep her sexual interest, then you probably won't have a sexual wife.


Where this gets tricky, it does to an extent imply that in order for a guy to have sex with his SO he must first do A, B, C, etc... Some guys will see this, and whether or not they feel like they are entering into a covert contract, will do A, B, C and then don't understand when there are no changes in sex. Likewise, this puts the women in control (just using your example here, not necessarily trying to be gender specific) where she can add on as many "requirements" as she wants as long as the guy will dance through hoops for the end goal. So either the guy gets walked all over, just b/c he hopes to have a sexual relationship with the one person he is supposed to have such relationship , the marriage goes sexless, infidelity, divorce, etc...


----------



## jld

Anon1111 said:


> that's great.
> 
> not every woman is the same as you though, obviously.
> 
> some women don't prioritize their marriage.


Thing is, they may not be getting as much out of it as I am, you know?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Those that do, generally prioritize the marriage - my neighborhood is a great example. Who would pass up a princess life just to play LD or otherwise ignore their husbands?

Once the balance of power is split in a marriage, things can go badly quickly. I don't agree with one person having all the power, but it does offer some awesome advantages. 

I could be married to one of many village girls, teaching in college there, and be happy. You never know.


----------



## Anon1111

jld said:


> Thing is, they may not be getting as much out of it as I am, you know?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


maybe so

I guess we'll never know


----------



## NobodySpecial

john117 said:


> You could have fooled me but TAM is full of guys whose LD wives don't want sex


 with their Nice Guy, covert contract, weeny husband


> period... Without affairs in sight.


----------



## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> Where this gets tricky, it does to an extent imply that in order for a guy to have sex with his SO he must first do A, B, C, etc... Some guys will see this, and whether or not they feel like they are entering into a covert contract, will do A, B, C and then don't understand when there are no changes in sex. Likewise, this puts the women in control (just using your example here, not necessarily trying to be gender specific) where she can add on as many "requirements" as she wants as long as the guy will dance through hoops for the end goal. So either the guy gets walked all over, just b/c he hopes to have a sexual relationship with the one person he is supposed to have such relationship , the marriage goes sexless, infidelity, divorce, etc...


Good point.

If you want your wife to have sex with you, you need to do A, B & C.

However, if you do A, B & C and still don't get sex, you're guilty of having a covert contract.


----------



## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> I 'love' studies that look at behavior pattern that occurs in some people of one gender but does not also look at that same behavior pattern in people of the other gender. This happens in some people of both genders.
> 
> There is an interesting book that talks about why some people lose interest in their spouse after some time period. (It does not blame either spouse by the way.)
> 
> Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence Paperback –
> by Esther Perel (Author)


I think the surprising result would be if men and women with different biology and tens of thousands of years of different evolutionary pressures ended up having the exact same sexual response.

I'm not sure why you see acknowledging any difference between the genders as "blaming" one or the other.


----------



## john117

NobodySpecial said:


> with their Nice Guy, covert contract, weeny husband


Everything in life, except kids and pets, are covert or overt contracts. Those who fall for the alpha beta stuff and pop psych books seem to lap it up.

The human thinking process is all about maximizing gain and minimizing risk. It's part of our genetic programming. 

The part about being nice or Nice is all about doing what needs to be done, be it wash dishes or work in the coal mine. Perhaps if women who fall for "alpha" bad boys would get their reality check in order they would know how it usually ends, and it rarely ends well in such cases.


----------



## Anon1111

EllisRedding said:


> Where this gets tricky, it does to an extent imply that in order for a guy to have sex with his SO he must first do A, B, C, etc... Some guys will see this, and whether or not they feel like they are entering into a covert contract, will do A, B, C and then don't understand when there are no changes in sex. Likewise, this puts the women in control (just using your example here, not necessarily trying to be gender specific) where she can add on as many "requirements" as she wants as long as the guy will dance through hoops for the end goal. So either the guy gets walked all over, just b/c he hopes to have a sexual relationship with the one person he is supposed to have such relationship , the marriage goes sexless, infidelity, divorce, etc...


this is why it's crucial to only do sh-t that you think you should do, regardless of whether there is some purported test being set up for you.


----------



## Anon1111

Buddy400 said:


> Good point.
> 
> If you want your wife to have sex with you, you need to do A, B & C.
> 
> However, if you do A, B & C and still don't get sex, you're guilty of having a covert contract.


disagree

intent is key


----------



## Anon1111

NobodySpecial said:


> with their Nice Guy, covert contract, weeny husband


take 1 part nice guy weenie

1 part frigid shrew

shake vigorously for 10-30 yrs

garnish with lemon wedge


----------



## Anon1111

john117 said:


> Perhaps if women who fall for "alpha" bad boys would get their reality check in order they would know how it usually ends, and it rarely ends well in such cases.


there's a lot of confirmation bias in these cases

the woman is already attracted to the alpha guy, so everything he does looks great to her.

there is no struggle regarding attraction, so there is no negotiation regarding surrounding issues.

it's only where attraction is lacking that there is a need to make up for it with other things.


----------



## LucasJackson

Read The Married Man Sex Life Primer. Seriously. It might be some tough reading at first because it's going to say some things you might not want to hear but be open minded and read it. From what you describe, if you put the suggestions from the book into practice, she'll be jumping your bones soon enough.


----------



## NobodySpecial

john117 said:


> Everything in life, except kids and pets, are covert or overt contracts.


That's depressing. It may be for you. But it is not for many people. Some people learn about love, caring and those things that engender the actual DESIRE to both do for and have sex with one's spouse.




> Those who fall for the alpha beta stuff and pop psych books seem to lap it up.
> 
> The human thinking process is all about maximizing gain and minimizing risk. It's part of our genetic programming.
> 
> The part about being nice or Nice is all about doing what needs to be done, be it wash dishes or work in the coal mine. Perhaps if women who fall for "alpha" bad boys would get their reality check in order they would know how it usually ends, and it rarely ends well in such cases.


The point of a Nice Guy is that he is NOT being nice. He is being a manipulative tool to get something OFF someone. That is NEVER going to be attractive.


----------



## john117

NobodySpecial said:


> That's depressing. It may be for you. But it is not for many people. Some people learn about love, caring and those things that engender the actual DESIRE to both do for and have sex with one's spouse.
> 
> The point of a Nice Guy is that he is NOT being nice. He is being a manipulative tool to get something OFF someone. That is NEVER going to be attractive.


Not for me only. Everyone does it, it's just some people don't see it as such. Are you going to ignore millions of years of genetic programming in favor of pop psych?

As for manipulation, everyone does it just as well. If you think they don't, ask any toddler.

Start looking at life in a more detached, clinical approach and you'll see.


----------



## NobodySpecial

john117 said:


> Not for me only. Everyone does it, it's just some people don't see it as such. Are you going to ignore millions of years of genetic programming in favor of pop psych?
> 
> As for manipulation, everyone does it just as well. If you think they don't, ask any toddler.


No I will take your word for it instead of my experience, thanks. I seem lots of things that humans do that make no evolutionary sense.




> Start looking at life in a more detached, clinical approach and you'll see.


Why would I do that? I am the one who is happy.


----------



## john117

NobodySpecial said:


> No I will take your word for it instead of my experience, thanks. I seem lots of things that humans do that make no evolutionary sense.
> .


My experience is based on a decade of psychology education (with three college degrees), and thirty one years of experience on human decision analysis.

There are truly selfless acts, don't get me wrong, but if you believe in *sustained* unconditional love among adults for an extended period of time, based on love, I have a unicorn farm to sell you north of Lexington KY.

Here's a hint: the feeling good part after you donate to your favorite charity or similar is simply the reward part. The feeling good part after a selfless acts of service for the deserving partner is in the same general area. Then there's long term rewards and goals that play into it as well.

Not quite as transactional as going to Walmart but not too different either.


----------



## NobodySpecial

john117 said:


> My experience is based on a decade of psychology education (with three college degrees), and thirty one years of experience on human decision analysis.
> 
> There are truly selfless acts, don't get me wrong, but if you believe in *sustained* unconditional love among adults for an extended period of time, based on love, I have a unicorn farm to sell you north of Lexington KY.


I never said anything about unconditional! But I do certainly believe in sustained love when it is fed.


----------



## Anon1111

john117 said:


> My experience is based on a decade of psychology education (with three college degrees), and thirty one years of experience on human decision analysis.
> 
> There are truly selfless acts, don't get me wrong, but if you believe in *sustained* unconditional love among adults for an extended period of time, based on love, I have a unicorn farm to sell you north of Lexington KY.
> 
> Here's a hint: the feeling good part after you donate to your favorite charity or similar is simply the reward part. The feeling good part after a selfless acts of service for the deserving partner is in the same general area. Then there's long term rewards and goals that play into it as well.
> 
> Not quite as transactional as going to Walmart but not too different either.


serious question:

what's your view on disassociating cause and effect from various interpersonal acts?

is this nonsensical?


----------



## john117

Anon1111 said:


> serious question:
> 
> what's your view on disassociating cause and effect from various interpersonal acts?
> 
> is this nonsensical?


It depends on whether the effect is perceived as positive or negative. My experience has been that people are way faster to blame some often magical but available cause when a negative thing happens, yet they're not in as much hurry to do so in a positive result. So more dissociation in positive than negative.

It also depends on the magnitude of the effect, for obvious reasons.

You can then move on to probability based dissociation. We could dissociate if we don't understand cause and effect probabilities. We think we have a good idea how our partner will react based on previous experiences and go from there.

Or it could depend on our state of mind, especially in interpersonal issues. 

Overall I would say it happens, more than we want to believe. And it tends to focus - just a guess - at the extremes, that is, if the partners are madly in love  no wrong can happen regardless of cause and effect, and vice versa. 

Do you have something more specific?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

john117 said:


> Here's a hint: the feeling good part after you donate to your favorite charity or similar is simply the reward part. The feeling good part after a selfless acts of service for the deserving partner is in the same general area. Then there's long term rewards and goals that play into it as well.


Actually, most people won't even do charity.
What they do is invest in corporations that do work in areas they want to invest in. And the "good feeling" is one of knowing something they want is being advanced - which is one of the reasons social awareness internet memes get so much popularity (advance your personal values by doing next to nothing).

Frequently there is more "charity" in random acts of kindness done randomly. (done frequently then we're back to doing for our own purposes)

True charity tends to result in a result in a type of mixed feelings.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Buddy400 said:


> Good point.
> 
> If you want your wife to have sex with you, you need to do A, B & C.
> 
> However, if you do A, B & C and still don't get sex, you're guilty of having a covert contract.


aka being passive-aggressive. by controlling one end of an implied contract, that for some unwritten and unagreed-to reason you expect the other person to act in a certain way [in reciprocation] usually without informing them of either contract or expectations. which is why "social contract" is just BS p-agg manipulation.

However with a "wife" there *is* a contract. Whether it be in a registry or big fancy building or some other ceremonial location. And they have these pesky things called "vows".
It's *not* actually just a pageant where you get to be the star for a day, and everyone has to pay attention to your special party.
It's actually a serious contract; one so serious that it is legally registered, and often is done by minister of religion as a declaration of troth in front of ones' deities.
Hardly "covert". Or are you implying that the idea that "most men want sex" is in some way "covert". I offer as evidence, the concept of seeking "sex" outside the bounds of the contract, that contract explicitly states that sex is to be provided _inside_ (ie between) the contracted members.

Nope the sex thing - sometimes there's emotional bagage, some folks are LD, but most often it's a power thing*.

* and frequently arises from misunderstanding of priorties and perceptions of the other party. ( an example of misunderstanding, is I thought I was doing wonderful things for my partner when I would go down orally on her (she never reciprocated), yet asking what she thought about it she saw it as something she was doing for me and that I should be grateful for her letting me do it.)


----------



## john117

Spot, my friend, you nailed it. LD is mostly about control. That's why NOT accepting infrequent intimacy and going all out negative - not merely the coy and cool cucumber 180 stuff - brings out the truth a lot quicker. In my experience at least.


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## RubyRing

Doesn't matter why WOMEN do this (happily married with no sexual health issues such as painful intercourse or clinical depression don't this) It only matters why this is happening between YOU and YOUR WIFE. Why not talk to HER about it, instead of blaming an entire gender for your problems ?


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## RubyRing

jack_medley said:


> - We've been married 12 years
> 
> - I'm 42 and my wife is 33
> 
> - We have one daughter who's 8
> 
> - That's a tough one. I have a crappy factory job and work close to 80 hours a week. She's a stay-at-home mom. We don't have a ton of alone time together but once a week we'll snuggle up and watch some netflix together for a few hours. It doesn't actually lead to any sex though (she'll always say she's not in the mood)



Sorry to hear about your 80 hour a week crappy job. You can't possible be bringing your best self to the relationship under those circumstances, and she is probably feeling pretty isolated being left alone 80 hours a week. Relationships wither and die without sufficent togetherness time. After an 80- hour work week, not much time or energy to spend any quality couple time.

Not placing blame here, it's a tough situation and you are just working hard to try and support your family. Perhaps you could get a less demanding job, and she could find something part time, to take off some of the financial burden. And you guys could find a way to live on a little less.

I know it's hard. Good luck to you.


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## john117

I beg to differ about the work hours. In the mid 90's wife and I decided to go back to grad school to get our PhDs. While working part time. While being a graduate teaching assistant. While having a toddler and having a baby. While in our late 30's. 80 hours a week was standard for about 5 years.

These five years were our golden years, our best years in the marriage. Now our kids are in college, we work 40 hours a week, and hate each other's guts.


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## soccermom2three

So if LD spouse desires control, what is happening in the marriage that is causing the LD spouse to feel so out of control that they need to control sex?


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## Buddy400

soccermom2three said:


> So if LD spouse desires control, what is happening in the marriage that is causing the LD spouse to feel so out of control that they need to control sex?


Well, like Elegirl's ex, they could just be a d!ck.

Just because they want control doesn't mean that they have a good reason for wanting it.


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## john117

soccermom2three said:


> So if LD spouse desires control, what is happening in the marriage that is causing the LD spouse to feel so out of control that they need to control sex?


Good question.

It could be real current reasons - husband is a bozo, job sucks, she does not feel in control there, hence LD.

It could be real past reasons (skeletons, CSA) that she can't control, hence LD.

It could be real or perceived interpersonal reasons, resentment, envy, etc hence LD.


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## soccermom2three

So, it's possible that the LD spouse's intent is not nefarious as some would like to believe.


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## john117

soccermom2three said:


> So, it's possible that the LD spouse's intent is not nefarious as some would like to believe.


Yes.

I think that the vast majority of LD's are at least partially cognizant of what they're doing. They may not know why they're doing it (or not doing it  ) but for the most part they know. The "I did not realize I was crushing his spirit" type stuff is pure crap, most people with room temperature IQ or better know what's going on.


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## RubyRing

john117 said:


> Yes.
> 
> I think that the vast majority of LD's are at least partially cognizant of what they're doing. They may not know why they're doing it (or not doing it  ) but for the most part they know. The "I did not realize I was crushing his spirit" type stuff is pure crap, most people with room temperature IQ or better know what's going on.


Do you think the reverse is possible, that the person who is married to the LD knows WHY they are LD ? Some examples would be a woman who feels unloved because her spouse has topped having conversation with her, only touches her as a prelude to sex, and is generally unkind to his spouse, is it possible that the sex deprived spouse KNOWS that they no longer lover their spouse, but still feels that they are owed sex ? Is it possible that they know that the lack of love, and affection has killed the sex drive, but the whole "I didn't know there had to be an emotional connection to have sex" is pure crap ?


----------



## RubyRing

john117 said:


> I beg to differ about the work hours. In the mid 90's wife and I decided to go back to grad school to get our PhDs. While working part time. While being a graduate teaching assistant. While having a toddler and having a baby. While in our late 30's. 80 hours a week was standard for about 5 years.
> 
> These five years were our golden years, our best years in the marriage. Now our kids are in college, we work 40 hours a week, and hate each other's guts.


Sorry to hear that you are in a hate filled marriage. It sounds like you two never really were that much in love, if your "golden years" were when you both worked 80 hours a week. It seems as if the 80 hour work week merely MASKED your indifference or hatred, and now that you have more time to actually spend in each other's company your true feeling have been REVEALED.

Something similar happened to me with my ex. My ex was OBSESSED with his outdoor hobbies. I was merely an option. If I would ask him to do something or go somewhere with me, he would always say "Let me get back to you on that" and then ONLY if he couldn't find a buddy to ski, bike, rock climb with, would he then attend a wedding with me, join my family for a holiday dinner, go see our son in some school performance, etc. I thought I was some hip liberated wife who gave him the freedom to pursue his hobbies, and of course, before our son came along, I would just go to weddings, concerts, etc by myself, and enjoy "having my space". 

As his retirement loomed, our son moved out, he flat out told me that he had plans for his retirement and that they didn't include me. I was hoping that once he retired, he would have SO MUCH time to hike, bike, ski, and that he could do that, and still have time for some "us" time. He thanked me for giving him a child, but he didn't need me any more now that our son was grown. He "loved me" but wasn't "in love" with me. (What a crock that line is ! )

I realize that I am half responsible, as I also needed my "space" initially, and I so willingly entered into essentially a part time relationship, and gave my spouse so much damn space, that what we had could hardly constitute a relationship.

Our marriage counselor even said that we BOTH picked each other because we KNEW the other wouldn't give us true intimacy. We both enjoyed the social validation of being married, but we never really connected like a married couple. We had a very hot sex life when were together, but other than that, there was very little relating and one can't sustain a relationship on sex alone.

Once it looked like we would have plenty of time to spend together, with his retirement and our son moved out, it turns out that we really didn't like each other.

I really loved having my "space" until after our child was born. Then I just felt like I was constantly abandoned and in a sense felt like a single mom (not financially, but in all other ways) After I started longing for more togetherness, as a couple and as a family, I felt like I really couldn't change the terms of our relationship, that it would be like pulling a bait and switch.

I am now happily engaged to someone and we really crave "togetherness" as opposed to "space". In fact, he is already retired, and we are just counting the years until I can do the same. "Space" only naturally occurs between us, we don't actively seek it out, and we don't care much for it. We prefer togetherness to space. We enjoy each in the bedroom as well, but our relationship is PREDOMINANTLY non sexual companionship, with tons of non-sexual touch and affection. We actually seek out each others company for day to day companionship (and really enjoy the "nightime companionship as well).

I learned my lesson the hard way. A relationship cannot be sustained over the long term if you are living separate lives, and are only together to have sex.

Good luck to both of you, it really sucks that you two hate each other's guts. It seems to me that with 2 PhD's and a past history of 80 work weeks, a divorce should be affordable. Then you would both be free to either live alone in peace, or find someone to love. 

I didn't think I would ever find love again in my late 50's but I did. And it is WONDERFUL !


----------



## john117

I think the HD - or normal desire - person initially doesn't know. It does not happen overnight. Eventually when the 1x a month fairy comes calling he may think about it, which is the wrong approach.

Once they put two and two together they may find some possibilities, subject to the quality of excuses 

I think if the HD side realizes what's going on, they can accept their role - if any - and go from there. I, for example, have largely stopped having meaningful conversations with my wife, I'm definitely unkind to her, and have zero expectations, sex or otherwise from her. I'm simply waiting for May 2017 to file and be done with it.

It really depends on how much thought the HD puts in it. Some may feel entitled to sex no matter what, some know what the future holds, and some are dazed and confused.it goes in phases.

Overall, they know what is happening but may not fully understand or know why it happens.


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## soccermom2three

So what can be done to help the LD spouse feel "in control" or safe so they don't use sex as a control method.


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## EllisRedding

soccermom2three said:


> So what can be done to help the LD spouse feel "in control" or safe so they don't use sex as a control method.


Copious amounts of ice cream I find helps almost every situation


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## john117

Depends on the reason for going LD in the first place, and the amount of trust left between the two.

If the root cause of the conflict is not resolved, you aren't going to fix anything. In many cases if trust is gone there's no point trying superficial methods like NMMNG or MMSLP to fix things. 

Some is personality. Some people are not trusting, period, regardless of the issue. Some don't want to lose this control. 

These are fundamental questions that usually require therapy and deep introspection to resolve. That's why my thought is to take sex off the table and work on important root causes, not manipulation. If you see reciprocity, fine. Else, not worth it.


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## EllisRedding

Is there a set definition for LD? I mean, in most relationships you figure one person will have a higher drive than the other, so the other could be classified as LD...


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> Is there a set definition for LD? I mean, in most relationships you figure one person will have a higher drive than the other, so the other could be classified as LD...


Despite for being short for low desire, it seems to really be short for anyone who does not want to have sex with their spouse for any reason. The assumption is that magically drive just fell away. ETA so that they don't have to consider the contribution to the feelings and the over all dynamic that they likely helped create.


----------



## john117

EllisRedding said:


> Is there a set definition for LD? I mean, in most relationships you figure one person will have a higher drive than the other, so the other could be classified as LD...


If your frequency and his frequency use different time units ie one is 2x a week the other 2x a month


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## karole

Using sex as control or withholding sex as punishment?? If I withhold sex from my husband, aren't I also punishing myself? Kinda of like the old saying, "Cutting off my nose to spite my face?"


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## john117

karole said:


> Using sex as control or withholding sex as punishment?? If I withhold sex from my husband, aren't I also punishing myself? Kinda of like the old saying, "Cutting off my nose to spite my face?"


Your point is? 

It's a matter of priorities. Getting even is more important than getting ahead. Human Nature 101.


----------



## nirvana

jb02157 said:


> I agree with your whole post, however, your list has one glaring mistake in it. The absolute #1 thing that attracts women is
> 
> MONEY
> 
> The one thing that causes the most arguments in a marriage is money. If a guy can supply his wife/girlfriend with an unending supply of money there would be no problems. To get their men to spend money on them or on what they want, they use sex as a means of control.



All this "emotional needs" and stuff is just nonsense. Women say it but don't mean it and probably laugh behind our backs. What they like is money (as you say) and power in a man. Success. But not an a-hole. Rather, not too much of an ahole that he becomes hard to live with. A small amount is okay.

No women will admit to this!


----------



## jerry123

karole said:


> Using sex as control or withholding sex as punishment?? If I withhold sex from my husband, aren't I also punishing myself? Kinda of like the old saying, "Cutting off my nose to spite my face?"


All depends on the state of ones marriage. 

I bet a lot of women use sex as a control method because they can. Or in another word, the husband goes along with it. 

It's a teach/learn thing. 

Years go by and sex dwindles. The husband gets frustrated and says what's going on. The wife says you don't cook/clean/help with kids. 
The husband cooks/cleans/helps with kids and his wife drip feeds him sex once a month. Turns out it's not the lack of help from husband but the lack of respect for the now even more betaized husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

jerry123 said:


> All depends on the state of ones marriage.
> 
> I bet a lot of women use sex as a control method because they can. Or in another word, the husband goes along with it.
> 
> It's a teach/learn thing.
> 
> Years go by and sex dwindles. The husband gets frustrated and says what's going on. The wife says you don't cook/clean/help with kids.
> The husband cooks/cleans/helps with kids and his wife drip feeds him sex once a month. Turns out it's not the lack of help from husband but the lack of respect for the now even more betaized husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually it's the fact that sex is one more chore for the wife and she's now happy to not have to do it. Not all are like that of course but I think more than one thinks...


----------



## nirvana

jerry123 said:


> All depends on the state of ones marriage.
> 
> I bet a lot of women use sex as a control method because they can. Or in another word, the husband goes along with it.
> 
> It's a teach/learn thing.
> 
> Years go by and sex dwindles. The husband gets frustrated and says what's going on. The wife says you don't cook/clean/help with kids.
> The husband cooks/cleans/helps with kids and his wife drip feeds him sex once a month. Turns out it's not the lack of help from husband but the lack of respect for the now even more betaized husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You said it well, Jerry. But I would not go as far as to call them all betaized men. Rather the women are the ones at fault. What does the man do? Either "rapes" his wife. Or goes and has sex with someone else. You cannot squeeze water our of a faucet which is not connected to a supply line. I really believe that after a woman had all the kids she wants, she loses interest in sex. Maybe nature makes her that way. But men always want sex as long as they are able to physically. That is when we see this situation and women play games by claiming these silly excuses and blaming men again (it's very much in fashion to blame men for everything)

Marriage as it is today hurts men and helps women. When a man is refused sex for weeks together on silly excuses, what can he do? Go watch porn or pleasure himself. After that what? He wants love, romance, sex with a woman. . He cannot just kick out the wife because he has kids with her and he loves his sweet kids. It's not easy. So he tries to do a balancing act by having an affair. That way he can get what he craves and his wife won't give him and he gets to be with his kids.

All the moralists might frown, but this is a real situation, and I personally think that if a wife does what jerry very logically explains above, she deserves it when her husband has an affair. What was she expecting??

I see a lot of frustrated 40+ men in my circle talk about dreamily about some hot chick they saw somewhere or complain about their wives and how grumpy they are all the time. We do not discuss sex life but I am sure that is where it all starts. These wives get so engrossed in their own projects of kids and career and friends that they neglect the husband. Many won't know if he was dead and would find out when the paychecks stopped.


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## jerry123

john117 said:


> Actually it's the fact that sex is one more chore for the wife and she's now happy to not have to do it. Not all are like that of course but I think more than one thinks...


Yes, I say drip feeds because if she gave no sex I think the guy would divorce. So she figures out what keeps him on the fishing line just enough not to leave. She'll do it at first twice a month, then move to once a month then once every other month. 

He starts complaining then rinse, repeat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon1111

john117 said:


> It depends on whether the effect is perceived as positive or negative. My experience has been that people are way faster to blame some often magical but available cause when a negative thing happens, yet they're not in as much hurry to do so in a positive result. So more dissociation in positive than negative.
> 
> It also depends on the magnitude of the effect, for obvious reasons.
> 
> You can then move on to probability based dissociation. We could dissociate if we don't understand cause and effect probabilities. We think we have a good idea how our partner will react based on previous experiences and go from there.
> 
> Or it could depend on our state of mind, especially in interpersonal issues.
> 
> Overall I would say it happens, more than we want to believe. And it tends to focus - just a guess - at the extremes, that is, if the partners are madly in love  no wrong can happen regardless of cause and effect, and vice versa.
> 
> Do you have something more specific?


I'm just trying to think through to what degree one can realistically exit the "covert contract" paradigm broadly

on some level, there is ultimately an expectation that one will receive SOMETHING for one's efforts.

I do think it's interesting what you wrote above-- that maybe in the most extreme cases (extreme positive and extreme negative) it's easiest to disassociate the exchange element


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## john117

jerry123 said:


> Yes, I say drip feeds because if she gave no sex I think the guy would divorce. So she figures out what keeps him on the fishing line just enough not to leave. She'll do it at first twice a month, then move to once a month then once every other month.
> 
> He starts complaining then rinse, repeat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bingo!


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## SimplyAmorous

karole said:


> Using sex as control or withholding sex as punishment?? If I withhold sex from my husband, aren't I also punishing myself? Kinda of like the old saying, "Cutting off my nose to spite my face?"


If one loves sex.. you'd be hurting yourself...for sure...if one doesn't care for it, really is repulsed by their spouse, feeling it's something to endure...that's just sad..I often think "resentment" 1st.. what so often destroys the intimacy between a couple... but it could be life experiences beat them down, so many things really.... 

I am not one who thinks a MAN should always get what he wants.. IF he is neglecting the emotional needs of his wife...both need to come together.. caring to please each other.. it's very beneficial (or should be) when our mate is happy.. this generally comes back to us in a variety of ways.. (or again.. it should)...it's meant to work this way... like this saying...












jack_medley said:


> Can someone please explain why this happens and why its so common?
> 
> After yet another unsuccessful attempt to seduce my wife, my confidence level is at an all-time low. she literally recoiled in disgust the last time I ran my hand up her thigh. I'm stuck in a sexless marriage and it's driving me crazy...


I see the original poster is banned.. but this thread keeps going & going & going.. my only contribution is.. _it takes 2 committed to reviving the intimacy and giving each other "extraordinary Care" in a relationship to hold the romance_.. _so we're inviting of his touch.. his cravings towards us.. and vice versa.. also our care, pleasing towards our husbands... _

I seen the posts about working 80 hrs a week.. I would literally hate that set up !!

I purposely pick jobs to work in conjunction with my husband's schedule (& kids) *so we can maximize as much time together as possible*... My husband could get weekends off but instead he chooses 2 week days - just so we can have more "playtime" together -when the kids are in school...

When we were younger though.. we did work like crazy so we had more to put down on a house ...with the plan to pay it off quicker and breath easier -if things got tough later in life, when more kids came along.. so there may be seasons in our lives where it's really really BUSY....where you pull together to meet those specific goals you set out to achieve.. 

We also tried to do all our own home improvements (saving more $$)... it wasn't exactly FUN time.. but still we did it together.. side by side.. I am thinking even this satisfied our "Time" needs - at least more than never seeing each other.... we felt like a TEAM ...digging ditches together.. taking shingles off.. installing furnaces, windows, laying cement, gathering wood, remodeling , building playsets, changing transmissions together...etc..

I resonate with your thoughts on this @RubyRing...that's wonderful you found someone that fits so well ...where you crave that time together...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I beg to differ about the work hours. In the mid 90's wife and I decided to go back to grad school to get our PhDs. While working part time. While being a graduate teaching assistant. While having a toddler and having a baby. While in our late 30's. 80 hours a week was standard for about 5 years.
> 
> These five years were our golden years, our best years in the marriage. Now our kids are in college, we work 40 hours a week, and hate each other's guts.


I agree with this. Time as a couple can be a luxury. It does not mean the marriage has to be bad. And it does not at all necessarily follow that sex will be sparing. Quite the opposite, in fact, when it is possible to be together.

It is all about the quality of the relationship. Focus on what you need to do to improve the quality of the relationship.

And, imo, accusing someone of being LD as some sort of control technique just reflects insecurity, and maybe even your own control issues.


----------



## NobodySpecial

john117 said:


> Actually it's the fact that sex is one more chore for the wife and she's now happy to not have to do it. Not all are like that of course but I think more than one thinks...


What kind of sex/relationship does someone have if they are happy not to "have to" do it? There is something seriously wrong with that picture. Who would want to have sex with someone they thought "had to" do it? That is kind of gross.


----------



## jld

I don't think anyone, male or female, should be shocked to hear that a neglected spouse has turned to someone else to get their needs met. It is naive to think that people will go forever without at least trying to get their needs met.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

jld said:


> And, imo, accusing someone of being LD as some sort of control technique just reflects insecurity, and maybe even your own control issues.


Au contraire. LD is the ultimate form of control... The best way to screw - figuratively - your partner without - figuratively - lifting a finger.

As always, I'm speaking from experience.


----------



## john117

NobodySpecial said:


> What kind of sex/relationship does someone have if they are happy not to "have to" do it? There is something seriously wrong with that picture. Who would want to have sex with someone they thought "had to" do it? That is kind of gross.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I don't think anyone, male or female, should be shocked to hear that a neglected spouse has turned to someone else to get their needs met. It is naive to think that people will go forever without at least trying to get their needs met.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Awesome. You understand


----------



## jerry123

jld said:


> I don't think anyone, male or female, should be shocked to hear that a neglected spouse has turned to someone else to get their needs met. It is naive to think that people will go forever without at least trying to get their needs met.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I had a friend years ago tell me years ago his wife and him barely have sex. He even said to her "I'm going to go out and find a call girl."

She said "Go ahead, just wear a condom."


Turns out....SHE was cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Celes

I've been struggling with this lately. I love my husband deeply. I've always been HD, wanting sex daily. I always loved to perform oral on my husband. I'm very sexual and kinky in bed. But for the last year my husband has been so totally focused on work and obsessed with making more money. We have been searching for houses and I get that he wants to get us the very best. But he has been working nonstop for the last year. He spends every waking hour at home learning new technologies to progress his career (he's in IT). He refuses to spend any meaningful time with me. No date nights (too much money according to him). He doesn't pay any attention when I speak to him anymore, his eyes are glued to the computer 99% of the time. He is extra snappy for stupid stuff all the time and every time he apologizes and says it's because he's stressed trying to get a better job. I've cried and I've pleaded and every time he comes back with "Do you want a house or not?" I told him I don't care about a stupid house anymore. He finally got a 10% raise and a nice bonus. I thought that was it. But last night he said he was still going to keep working to find a better company that will pay him more. And that things will pretty much continue to be this way. And no, I'm not a SAHM. I work full time and make very good income. We have plenty of savings and 0 debt. We have no children. He makes a great salary, with the recent bump he's at 6 figures. But he is obsessed and doesn't want to do anything at all because of money. We had a trip to Spain this year and he made such a stink of it after over cost that I never want to take a trip with him again. 

Guess what? For the last month now, I'm not interested in sex with him anymore. Do I want sex? Absolutely. I'm still HD. But without the emotional connection, I don't want sex with HIM. I had duty sex for the first time last night and I admit it felt awful emotionally. I don't really turn him down now but I don't initiate anymore either (I used to all the time). I watch porn and take care of myself over initiating now. He's a great man, very patient and kind, but gives me zero attention. And my desire of sex is directly related to how I feel emotionally. You guys out there who roll your eyes at women who tell you about emotional needs are clueless.


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## jld

jerry123 said:


> I had a friend years ago tell me years ago his wife and him barely have sex. He even said to her "I'm going to go out and find a call girl."
> 
> She said "Go ahead, just wear a condom."
> 
> 
> Turns out....SHE was cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like neither of their needs were being met.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

john117 said:


>


:lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

john117 said:


> Au contraire. LD is the ultimate form of control... The best way to screw - figuratively - your partner without - figuratively - lifting a finger.
> 
> As always, I'm speaking from experience.


She probably feels the same way about you. Have you ever considered that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EllisRedding

Celes said:


> Guess what? For the last month now, I'm not interested in sex with him anymore. Do I want sex? Absolutely. I'm still HD. But without the emotional connection, I don't want sex with HIM. I had duty sex for the first time last night and I admit it felt awful emotionally. I don't really turn him down now but I don't initiate anymore either (I used to all the time). I watch porn and take care of myself over initiating now. He's a great man, very patient and kind, but gives me zero attention. And my desire of sex is directly related to how I feel emotionally. You guys out there who roll your eyes at women who tell you about emotional needs are clueless.


Real sorry you have to deal with this, are you willing to rock the boat at all, or just accepted your fate that this is how you will spend the rest of your marriage?

Funny, you mention your desire for sex is directly related to how you feel emotionally which I can understand. On the flip side, for me at least, my desire for the emotional connection is in many ways connected to sex (of which several women here rolled their eyes at guys who stated that since I guess we are all hornballs lol).


----------



## john117

jld said:


> She probably feels the same way about you. Have you ever considered that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course. Again, first hand experience. 

But, I wasn't the one to start it, escalate it, and keep it going for 8 years now. For the first few years I was "innocent" and played along. Them I realized how it all works, stopped playing along, and Holy Jung, no more control. 

Now she's the one initiating 90℅ of all (rare) conversations. She's the one who has tried the physical approach last few times as well. Too little, too late. 

Couldn't have happened to a better person .


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## jerry123

@Celes

Yours is a unique situation. You're HD. And your husband is HW/HM (high work, high money)

He's a workaholic. I bet he wouldn't even notice not having sex for months. 


A LD wife would still not all of a sudden be HD getting tons of more emotional needs from their husband. It would help. But there are just some women who who see it as a chore. Even getting that emotional need.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jerry123

EllisRedding said:


> Real sorry you have to deal with this, are you willing to rock the boat at all, or just accepted your fate that this is how you will spend the rest of your marriage?
> 
> Funny, you mention your desire for sex is directly related to how you feel emotionally which I can understand. On the flip side, for me at least, my desire for the emotional connection is in many ways connected to sex (of which several women here rolled their eyes at guys who stated that since I guess we are all hornballs lol).


Ex-fuc$ing-actly


Guys get that emotional connection from sex. Makes them feel like a man. 

Woman get it from the connection from having their emotional needs met. 


We are two different members of the human race. The fine balance is meeting each other half way. And that means both partners trying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Of course. Again, first hand experience.
> 
> But, I wasn't the one to start it, escalate it, and keep it going for 8 years now. For the first few years I was "innocent" and played along. Them I realized how it all works, stopped playing along, and Holy Jung, no more control.
> 
> Now she's the one initiating 90℅ of all (rare) conversations. She's the one who has tried the physical approach last few times as well. Too little, too late.
> 
> Couldn't have happened to a better person .


Sounds like a good thing you two are divorcing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> Despite for being short for low desire, it seems to really be short for anyone who does not want to have sex with their spouse for any reason. The assumption is that magically drive just fell away. ETA so that they don't have to consider the contribution to the feelings and the over all dynamic that they likely helped create.


What about situations where the husband really hasn't done anything wrong and the wife just loses desire after 2-5 years?

It's not that the sex is bad.

It's not that the husband has changed.

It's just that the newness is gone.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/unexcited-there-may-be-a-pill-for-that.html?hp&_r=3&

This does seem to be more of a woman thing.


----------



## norajane

Buddy400 said:


> What about situations where the husband really hasn't done anything wrong and the wife just loses desire after 2-5 years?
> 
> It's not that the sex is bad.
> 
> It's not that the husband has changed.
> 
> It's just that the newness is gone.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/unexcited-there-may-be-a-pill-for-that.html?hp&_r=3&
> 
> This does seem to be more of a woman thing.


That's when you have to shake things up and fall in love with each other all over again. See your partner with fresh eyes. 

For me, that means a little bit of adventure. Move to a new city where we have been wanting to live is a big change. Travel somewhere new together, somewhere that captures our imaginations, is a more frequent change. 

Explore new aspects of each other in new situations. A good relationship will thrive on new experiences, will bring new passions, and refresh sexual passions.


----------



## EllisRedding

norajane said:


> That's when you have to shake things up and fall in love with each other all over again. See your partner with fresh eyes.
> 
> For me, that means a little bit of adventure. Move to a new city where we have been wanting to live is a big change. Travel somewhere new together, somewhere that captures our imaginations, is a more frequent change.
> 
> Explore new aspects of each other in new situations. A good relationship will thrive on new experiences, will bring new passions, and refresh sexual passions.


The problem, so now every 2-5 yrs (based on @Buddy400 post) you have to shake things up to keep your SO interested  I mean, I agree, you should always continue to date your SO, but to me if you have to keep going above in beyond to have your SO fall in love with you again, clearly something is wrong


----------



## norajane

EllisRedding said:


> The problem, so now every 2-5 yrs (based on @*Buddy400* post) you have to shake things up to keep your SO interested  I mean, I agree, you should always continue to date your SO, but to me if you have to keep going above in beyond to have your SO fall in love with you again, clearly something is wrong


It's the opposite of dire. It's fun. 

Yes, I'm saying when "anything" gets boring and dull and routine and like you just don't care anymore (lack of desire for sex, lack of passion, lack of interest in an otherwise good relationship) you have to shake things up. You have to do "something" to change things so that you get out of the rut you're in as a couple. Do nothing, and you continue to stay in the rut and become that "old married couple that never has sex."

If you keep things interesting all along, you don't end up in ruts in the first place, or at least, they won't be as deep and hard to climb out of.


----------



## norajane

Ellis, I'm quoting myself in this thread in my reply to the OP because this is the kind of thing I'm talking about:



norajane said:


> 80 hour workweek, and the only time you spend together is one night in front of the tv.
> 
> I do not see much room for connecting and maintaining passion. Likely, your wife is feeling disconnected from the sexy part of your relationship since there is little emotional, intellectual OR physical connection between you. Without that, your touch is like a stranger's touch.
> 
> I'd start with the job situation - whatever you can do to decrease your hours, even if that means she gets a job, will be helpful so you can spend more time together, go on dates, and bring out the fun part of your relationship again, like when you first met and were dating. Focus on having fun together as a family with your daughter, and as a couple.


The OP and his wife are barely around each other. Yes, I think they need to shake things up, and make some change happen or nothing will change. But he said he doesn't want her to have a job while their daughter is young (she is 8). So they will not spend more time together. They will stay this distant and without passion. Nothing will change if they don't step out of the comfort zone they're in and spend more time together as a couple.

They need a big change.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Sounds like a good thing you two are divorcing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not my first choice...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Not my first choice...


She is not the one filing, John.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

jld said:


> She is not the one filing, John.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's the one that abandoned the marriage.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> She's the one that abandoned the marriage.


Not sure she sees it that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

norajane said:


> It's the opposite of dire. It's fun.
> 
> Yes, I'm saying when "anything" gets boring and dull and routine and like you just don't care anymore (lack of desire for sex, lack of passion, lack of interest in an otherwise good relationship) you have to shake things up. You have to do "something" to change things so that you get out of the rut you're in as a couple. Do nothing, and you continue to stay in the rut and become that "old married couple that never has sex."
> 
> If you keep things interesting all along, you don't end up in ruts in the first place, or at least, they won't be as deep and hard to climb out of.


Yes.. get Spicing ! ...I bought this book 8 yrs ago.. touching on this sort of thing.. Kosher Adultery: Seduce and Sin with Your Spouse  ... that passion can be revived , kept alive with some creativity and forethought...

At the time.. I wasn't bored at all.. but I wanted to get more "Erotic" out of him, shake things up, introduce some novelty, make it FUN, hard to resist....so I really enjoyed reading this.. some of the crazy things inside this book.. I can't see me doing.. but it was a refreshing read...

I can't say I've ever had the 7 yr itch or anything like this... never where I longed for someone new, that I was so bored.. I always ran TO HIM if I wanted something.. wanted MORE, and his arms would be wide open.. .but true.. there were plenty of phases that Romance & sex wasn't paramount on my mind.. kids stole the limelight.. he loves being a Father...just getting caught up in family stuff...always those "family vacations".... but even then....

A few memories pop in my head...where something spontaneous happened - on those family vacations...I remember us crashing up in the loft where a couple of the little ones were sleeping... we ended up making love under a sheet right there on the floor...it was exciting.. exhilarating.. where we shouldn't have done it there.. but darn it.. the passion just took over.. (yes they were sleeping and it was dark)...

About the book...(Yeah it's written by a Jewish Rabbi.. but he's not your average Rabbi by any means)..some good stuff in there.. 



> How can adultery-the worst of all marital sins-be considered "kosher"? As internationally bestselling author Rabbi Shmuley Boteach explains, what often leads to infidelity is too much trust and complacency, which causes routine, boredom, and waning attraction. You and your spouse must look to the principles of adultery-forbiddenness, danger, excitement, tension, and voyeurism-to achieve the outer limits of erotic excitement, passion, and pleasure in your own marriage.
> 
> In this revolutionary new book, Rabbi Shmuley explains how you can rekindle the fiery attraction and endless lust that existed before you and your spouse became husband and wife: Kosher Adultery. Husbands must turn their wives into mistresses; wives must turn their husbands into lovers. Through the groundbreaking "Ten Commandments of Kosher Adultery," wives become their husbands’ private WebCam girls, while husbands have sinful affairs with their wives, who are completely unaware of the real identity of their mysterious admirers. Rabbi Shmuley shows you how to:
> 
> - Create erotic desire in the mind, the source of all lust and attraction
> 
> - Look at your spouse with the eyes of a prowling suitor
> 
> - Bring the danger of an affair into your marriage without being unfaithful
> 
> - Turn attraction and fantasies about strangers into an electric night of passion
> 
> - Bring novelty into marriage by viewing your spouse through the eyes of an unsuspecting stranger
> 
> - Have a secret e-mail affair with your spouse without anyone discovering your identity
> 
> - Introduce erotic voyeurism into your marriage
> 
> - Increase desire and sinfulness through the use of erotic obstacles and barriers
> 
> Continuing where Rabbi Shmuley’s classic Kosher Sex leaves off, this highly controversial and electric work challenges all past and contemporary scholarship about the marital bed, ensuring that it will be the most hotly debated and discussed book of the next decade.


----------



## Celes

EllisRedding said:


> Real sorry you have to deal with this, are you willing to rock the boat at all, or just accepted your fate that this is how you will spend the rest of your marriage?
> 
> Funny, you mention your desire for sex is directly related to how you feel emotionally which I can understand. On the flip side, for me at least, my desire for the emotional connection is in many ways connected to sex (of which several women here rolled their eyes at guys who stated that since I guess we are all hornballs lol).


I've thought about bringing up marriage counseling. He seems to think I'm the one with the issue. That my expectations are unrealistic. I'm only asking for more quality time with him and more affection outside of the bedroom. He doesn't get it.

I haven't read the entire thread but I absolutely understand that men connect emotionally via sex. It's why I have always made myself available to my husband even when I'm not exactly in the mood. We've been together 6 years, married a little over 2 and the one time I turned him down sexually was last month. And that was only because I had just poured my heart out, telling him everything I needed from him that I wasn't getting and he just ignored it. Next day he initiated sex like nothing happened and I was like wtf?

Same thing happened last night. I brought everything up again and got the same excuses and he basically said things weren't going to change. I silently cried myself to sleep while he typed on his laptop, working. Then he woke me up in the middle of the night by yanking my panties down and just going for it. Normally not an issue, I have always told him he has the green light anytime. But wtf?? I don't understand, it's like he just doesn't care at all. I didn't turn him down because I don't want to further damage the marriage and sex has already been down, but I feel even worse today.


----------



## Celes

jerry123 said:


> @Celes
> 
> Yours is a unique situation. You're HD. And your husband is HW/HM (high work, high money)
> 
> He's a workaholic. I bet he wouldn't even notice not having sex for months.
> 
> 
> A LD wife would still not all of a sudden be HD getting tons of more emotional needs from their husband. It would help. But there are just some women who who see it as a chore. Even getting that emotional need.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My husband wasn't always a workaholic and he was HD like me. His first job, he was better paid with less work. But the company got sold and corporate was laid off. So he took this job that paid less about a year and a half ago. That's when the change started, it's been especially bad these last few months. You're right, he hasn't noticed at all that I've stopped initiating. I don't think he cares that we're having less sex, he's too focused on working. 

I'm not saying an LD wife will miraculously become HD. But a lack of emotional connection will only make things worse for women especially.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Not sure she sees it that way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As I said, cut off affection to your husband for a few years then ask if he sees it your way . While you're at it, come up with a vision for the next 20 years that guarantees financial ruin because 2000 sq ft is not enough for two people, then demonstrate amply that "in sickness and health" means yours only, and see how fast he'll run.


----------



## Personal

...


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> What about situations where the husband really hasn't done anything wrong and the wife just loses desire after 2-5 years?
> 
> It's not that the sex is bad.
> 
> It's not that the husband has changed.
> 
> It's just that the newness is gone.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/unexcited-there-may-be-a-pill-for-that.html?hp&_r=3&
> 
> This does seem to be more of a woman thing.


What are you proposing? That she should just suck it up and screw him?

ETA: Lack of newness does not result in repulsion but indifference.


----------



## john117

Indifference and repulsion yield largely the same outcome


----------



## nirvana

jld said:


> I don't think anyone, male or female, should be shocked to hear that a neglected spouse has turned to someone else to get their needs met. It is naive to think that people will go forever without at least trying to get their needs met.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. There is a lot of moralizing and indignation on here about people having affairs. If their reasonable needs are not met in a marriage and worse, the spouse does not care to even acknowledge or address those, then I think it is okay for the other spouse to have an affair. Life is too short to feel miserable and unwanted all the time, and it is not always possible or easy to just divorce the spouse (kids, finances etc).

So my take is if the spouse is not being reasonable, then an affair is not a wrong way out of this. This may even keep the errant spouse from taking the other for granted and up his/her game.


----------



## nirvana

Personal said:


> Nonsense!
> 
> As long as you keep thinking the same, you will keep getting the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Try looking in a mirror sometime, perhaps you might finally recognise yourself in your statement as quoted above.
> 
> 
> 
> More nonsense!
> 
> 
> 
> Well for starters he should try to avoid being a cry baby victim.
> 
> 
> 
> You must really hate the fact that your wife has the same rights as you.
> 
> 
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: As the man says, "I'm only having that affair to be with my kids".
> 
> 
> 
> With the exception of one individual, I can't recall any of my 40+ male friends complaining about their wives or being frustrated or talking about some hot chick dreamily either.
> 
> With respect to the one exception while in a mixed group of male and female friends, he shared to all of us that he was in a sexless marriage and as it turned out he sounded a lot like the male TAM sexless crowd. Yet everyone else in that gathering who were all 40+ and all within a year of each other in birthdays, were honestly quite surprised. Since all of the other men and women in that group related that they love sex and have it frequently with their spouses or partners. So once a bit of incredulity and empathy was shared for the victim, we then had a quite ribald discussion about the joys of sex.
> 
> Anyway as I've said to you before if you want a different outcome you need to change your mind in order for the sex to follow.


Silly personal attacks is all you can do!

Same old male bashing that goes on here and in society in general.

Women today get a great deal with marriage. Men, not as much. This is 2016, not the old days where it is okay to beat one's wife or steal away all her rights. 

So yes, if a man's reasonable needs are not being met, I think he should go and have an affair. That would jolt his lazy wife out of her reverie. If she didn't care, then it would work well for the man too. Win-win!


----------



## jld

I disagree that affairs are okay. I simply do not think they are shocking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> What are you proposing? That she should just suck it up and screw him?


No. I really don't see a solution. 

There seem to be situations where there's nothing the guy could do to improve things.

Scary.


----------



## EllisRedding

Here was an interesting conversation I had with a friend. He said the topic of sex came up with his W, so he wanted to know if he asked her for a BJ at that moment, what her answer would be. She said her answer would be no, and the reason is because she is a mom now (she has been a mom for over 13 yrs lol), that is something a mistress would do lol. Now, if she never gave him BJs during their relationship that would be one thing. According to him though, in the early years, she would give frequently, and by her own doing. The whole "mother" thing sounds like a load of BS, a convenient excuse to get out having to answer honestly why she doesn't want to do anymore.


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> No. I really don't see a solution.
> 
> There seem to be situations where there's nothing the guy could do to improve things.
> 
> Scary.


All it leads to is a very one sided relationship, where he has to do X/Y/Z in hopes that she possibly responds. Rinse and repeat every 2-5 years (based on the article you posted).


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> Silly personal attacks is all you can do!
> 
> Same old male bashing that goes on here and in society in general.
> 
> Women today get a great deal with marriage. Men, not as much. This is 2016, not the old days where it is okay to beat one's wife or steal away all her rights.
> 
> So yes, if a man's reasonable needs are not being met, I think he should go and have an affair. That would jolt his lazy wife out of her reverie. If she didn't care, then it would work well for the man too. Win-win!


You know, it's so true. I so miss the days when men could beat their wives! It used to be so easy. Be attractive enough to land a wife, then sex whenever you want. She doesn't put out, just beat her!

Now he actually has to remain attractive AND be a decent human being. What a DRAG.


----------



## Married but Happy

NobodySpecial said:


> Now he actually has to remain attractive AND be a decent human being. What a DRAG.


I don't find it a drag, at all. I want to be remain attractive to my wife and treat her kindly, just as she does for me. It's a win/win scenario, and has worked well for many years. Of course, if she someday hates my guts and turns our marriage sexless for some reason that I can't fix, remaining attractive and decent will make it easy to find a new relationship quickly!


----------



## NobodySpecial

Married but Happy said:


> I don't find it a drag, at all.


I was being entirely sarcastic.


----------



## john117

NobodySpecial said:


> You know, it's so true. I so miss the days when men could beat their wives! It used to be so easy. Be attractive enough to land a wife, then sex whenever you want. She doesn't put out, just beat her!
> 
> Now he actually has to remain attractive AND be a decent human being. What a DRAG.


Not to mention that copays and deductibles have skyrocketed at the Emergency Room  what is a manly man to do


----------



## Anon1111

norajane said:


> That's when you have to shake things up and fall in love with each other all over again. See your partner with fresh eyes.
> 
> For me, that means a little bit of adventure. Move to a new city where we have been wanting to live is a big change. Travel somewhere new together, somewhere that captures our imaginations, is a more frequent change.
> 
> Explore new aspects of each other in new situations. A good relationship will thrive on new experiences, will bring new passions, and refresh sexual passions.


is it all on the guy to maintain the "newness"?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Anon1111 said:


> is it all on the guy to maintain the "newness"?


No... but... The person with the issue is always the one who has to act. Status quo remains for people who don't have an issue. The whole concept of "have to" be nice, warm, loving... to get sex... is a HUGE turn off. I want a man who WANTS to be those things with me. Does she "have to" just have sex because she is married?


----------



## john117

Reciprocity is at the heart of this...


----------



## Anon1111

Personal said:


> Anyway as I've said to you before if you want a different outcome you need to change your mind in order for the sex to follow.


you can change your own mind, but it does not automatically lead to any particular woman wanting you.

thinking it will is another trap.


----------



## Anon1111

NobodySpecial said:


> No... but... The person with the issue is always the one who has to act. Status quo remains for people who don't have an issue. The whole concept of "have to" be nice, warm, loving... to get sex... is a HUGE turn off. I want a man who WANTS to be those things with me. Does she "have to" just have sex because she is married?


OK, but what if the guy is just like, nah, I'd rather just be with someone who automatically wants me, rather than to have to spend a lifetime re-upping the new BF experience.

In other words, why is it reasonable for a woman to expect perpetual new BF experience?


----------



## Married but Happy

NobodySpecial said:


> I was being entirely sarcastic.


I know! :wink2: Just thought I'd leaven it with some total sincerity.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Anon1111 said:


> OK, but what if the guy is just like, nah, I'd rather just be with someone who automatically wants me, rather than to have to spend a lifetime re-upping the new BF experience.
> 
> In other words, why is it reasonable for a woman to expect perpetual new BF experience?


It is reasonable for anyone to want whatever they want. But we all know, you can't always get what you want.


----------



## norajane

Anon1111 said:


> is it all on the guy to maintain the "newness"?


You guys are truly intent on finding the worst possible interpretation OR are intent on figuring out how to take little no responsibility for your own (sexual) relationship while getting all the sex you want. Wow. 

NO, it's up to the COUPLE to shake things up. They have to decide to do whatever it is that creates the change. I've given two examples of what WE do - primarily selecting awesome vacations to places WE want to go in order to have new experiences together that bring US closer and allow us to see each other in new lights and refresh our passion for life and for each other.

Other people can do other things, whatever their dreams as a COUPLE are, or to find new passions as a couple.

Buddy cited an article that says some women have lost their drive in otherwise GOOD relationships after being married for a while, and those women were seeking solutions for it. That sure seemed to me like the women were involved in the process and it wasn't all on the man.

In my case specifically, I am the shaker most of the time, because that is my personality. That's how I've lived my life pre-fiancee - CHANGE things that are dull or aren't working for me, like jobs, cities, homes, sporty activities, passions, restaurants, even favorite drinks. I hate ruts, and I hate dong the same damned thing every day for years on end.

It could be either person who is the catalyst for change. Usually, the one who feels the need the most will be the one to do it. But yeah, if your sex life is dying, then why NOT be the catalyst for change?


----------



## norajane

Anon1111 said:


> OK, but what if the guy is just like, nah, I'd rather just be with someone who automatically wants me, rather than to have to spend a lifetime re-upping the new BF experience.
> 
> In other words, why is it reasonable for a woman to expect perpetual new BF experience?


For the same reason the guy wants the sex life he had when they were dating. People HAVE to continually renew themselves and their relationships or they get dull and stale and mired in the tedious day to day crap that dulls our minds and bodies. Couples NEED to stay exciting to each other rather than assuming they can just sit back, do nothing, and everything will be AWESOME ALL THE TIME FOREVER.


----------



## nirvana

jld said:


> I disagree that affairs are okay. I simply do not think they are shocking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I did not understand the second line. What do you think is not shocking?


----------



## nirvana

EllisRedding said:


> Here was an interesting conversation I had with a friend. He said the topic of sex came up with his W, so he wanted to know if he asked her for a BJ at that moment, what her answer would be. She said her answer would be no, and the reason is because she is a mom now (she has been a mom for over 13 yrs lol), that is something a mistress would do lol. Now, if she never gave him BJs during their relationship that would be one thing. According to him though, in the early years, she would give frequently, and by her own doing. The whole "mother" thing sounds like a load of BS, a convenient excuse to get out having to answer honestly why she doesn't want to do anymore.


A lot of women seem to use this "I am a mom" excuse to wriggle out of any situation. It is like some people use race or religion to blackmail others. 
I understand some women who don't like BJs and have never done or liked it. But if a woman has done it before, I don't see a good reason why she should stop it completely after getting married or after kids. It is a slimy bait and switch scam.


----------



## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> You know, it's so true. I so miss the days when men could beat their wives! It used to be so easy. Be attractive enough to land a wife, then sex whenever you want. She doesn't put out, just beat her!
> 
> Now he actually has to remain attractive AND be a decent human being. What a DRAG.


Exactly! Life sucks, doesn't it? 
:grin2:


----------



## nirvana

Anon1111 said:


> you can change your own mind, but it does not automatically lead to any particular woman wanting you.
> 
> thinking it will is another trap.


Exactly.
It's amazing how much snake oil some people try to sell and in the end blame the man for everything.

She has no interest in sex? Blame the husband. He isn't romantic enough.

He has no interest in sex? Blame the husband. He isn't man enough. So she can now bang the postman.

This feminazi-ism is out of control.


----------



## jld

nirvana said:


> I did not understand the second line. What do you think is not shocking?


I don't think it is shocking that spouses whose needs are not met would have affairs. I also do not think it is okay to have affairs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon1111

norajane said:


> For the same reason the guy wants the sex life he had when they were dating. People HAVE to continually renew themselves and their relationships or they get dull and stale and mired in the tedious day to day crap that dulls our minds and bodies. Couples NEED to stay exciting to each other rather than assuming they can just sit back, do nothing, and everything will be AWESOME ALL THE TIME FOREVER.


this makes complete sense to me

keeping the relationship alive should really be a shared activity

if it's not a shared activity then it's impossible to save and not worth saving


----------



## Anon1111

NobodySpecial said:


> You know, it's so true. I so miss the days when men could beat their wives! It used to be so easy. Be attractive enough to land a wife, then sex whenever you want. She doesn't put out, just beat her!
> 
> Now he actually has to remain attractive AND be a decent human being. What a DRAG.


What's weird is that there seems to be a generally accepted attitude that the man should always be upping his game, keeping the relationship fresh, etc.

I rarely see any suggestion here or elsewhere that women have a corresponding obligation to up their game, keep the relationship fresh etc.

On the contrary, there seems to be a general expectation that a man should accept his wife as she is, and if he doesn't, he is a sh-tlord.

That to me is total BS. If I have to be in tip top shape, funny, outgoing, thoughtful, etc, then I expect a woman to put in the same effort.

If that's not the deal, there is no deal.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Anon1111 said:


> What's weird is that there seems to be a generally accepted attitude that the man should always be upping his game, keeping the relationship fresh, etc.


I do think that they should. But so should she. What I see more often is men complaining that the "have to" and why should they "have to". She should just have sex with him, whatever she wants. 



> I rarely see any suggestion here or elsewhere that women have a corresponding obligation to up their game, keep the relationship fresh etc.


What good would that do to a man posting here? Go tell your wife she has an obligation? I am sure that would work wonders. When guys come here posting, they are looking for advice. Sucks to be you, it is not your fault is CERTAINLY not going to help them.

There was a woman recently who was completely lambasted for withholding sex on purpose because her husband did not "make enough money" though the amount was the same as when they married. 



> On the contrary, there seems to be a general expectation that a man should accept his wife as she is, and if he doesn't, he is a sh-tlord.
> 
> That to me is total BS. If I have to be in tip top shape, funny, outgoing, thoughtful, etc, then I expect a woman to put in the same effort.
> 
> If that's not the deal, there is no deal.


Go for it! Half the guys who come here are NOT willing to expect their wives to do anything. Or else.


----------



## arbitrator

*Probably because of his overly "short appendage" and his overly "large beer-belly!" *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

Anon1111 said:


> What's weird is that there seems to be a generally accepted attitude that the man should always be upping his game, keeping the relationship fresh, etc.
> 
> I rarely see any suggestion here or elsewhere that women have a corresponding obligation to up their game, keep the relationship fresh etc.
> 
> On the contrary, there seems to be a general expectation that a man should accept his wife as she is, and if he doesn't, he is a sh-tlord.
> 
> That to me is total BS. If I have to be in tip top shape, funny, outgoing, thoughtful, etc, then I expect a woman to put in the same effort.
> 
> If that's not the deal, there is no deal.


On TAM there is very often suggestion to men about what they can do to improve their marriages because there are more men posting about marital issues on TAM. So yea, we talk to the man since he is the one here.

Out there in the rest of the world, there is a huge amount of advice telling women what they can do to improve their marriage/relationship. It's a very frequent topic in women's magazines. You probably don't see these things because you are probably not reading magazines and books that are geared towards women.


----------



## nirvana

jld said:


> I don't think it is shocking that spouses whose needs are not met would have affairs. I also do not think it is okay to have affairs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Got it.

My view is that if one spouse does not meet the reasonable needs of the other spouse then he/she is cheating them (withholding sex). If that happens, it is okay for the other spouse to cheat back (affair).


----------



## nirvana

Anon1111 said:


> What's weird is that there seems to be a generally accepted attitude that the man should always be upping his game, keeping the relationship fresh, etc.
> 
> I rarely see any suggestion here or elsewhere that women have a corresponding obligation to up their game, keep the relationship fresh etc.
> 
> On the contrary, there seems to be a general expectation that a man should accept his wife as she is, and if he doesn't, he is a sh-tlord.
> 
> That to me is total BS. If I have to be in tip top shape, funny, outgoing, thoughtful, etc, then I expect a woman to put in the same effort.
> 
> If that's not the deal, there is no deal.


Yes, that is the notion being put forth in the media everyday.
Ele said that women's mags tell women how to improve their game and I agree with her too.
but that media is very small compared to the propaganda that puts the onus on men.

I realized that my birthday nowadays is neglected. No one even takes me (us as a family) out to dinner any more and the last 2 years this has been skipped. My wife bakes a cake for me and makes us a nice dinner. Yes, she does that. But thr tradition is to also go out for dinner so I can have something I rarely have (steak). I end up taking her out to some fancy place on her birthday and buying her gifts and taking her out on a date. What she does for me is waayyyy less than what I do for her. For our anniversary, she does nothing and I do everything. It is OUR anniversary, not just hers. Same thing for Valentine's day.

So I have decided to do everything on a reciprocal basis from now on. Whatever you do for me, I will do that and throw in 10% more. No more of "you nothing and I everything".


----------



## Anon1111

nirvana said:


> Yes, that is the notion being put forth in the media everyday.
> Ele said that women's mags tell women how to improve their game and I agree with her too.
> but that media is very small compared to the propaganda that puts the onus on men.
> 
> I realized that my birthday nowadays is neglected. No one even takes me (us as a family) out to dinner any more and the last 2 years this has been skipped. My wife bakes a cake for me and makes us a nice dinner. Yes, she does that. But thr tradition is to also go out for dinner so I can have something I rarely have (steak). I end up taking her out to some fancy place on her birthday and buying her gifts and taking her out on a date. What she does for me is waayyyy less than what I do for her. For our anniversary, she does nothing and I do everything. It is OUR anniversary, not just hers. Same thing for Valentine's day.
> 
> So I have decided to do everything on a reciprocal basis from now on. Whatever you do for me, I will do that and throw in 10% more. No more of "you nothing and I everything".


I have the same experience as you 

I basically do special occasions on a case by case basis at this point rather than have a blanket policy.

As in, if I feel like doing something nice without expectation that the favor will be returned, I will do it, if I don't, I won't.

I've found that this approach diminishes the sense that you are getting the short end of the stick without eliminating the possibility that you can be nice just to be nice, without expectation of return.


----------



## Buddy400

norajane said:


> Buddy cited an article that says some women have lost their drive in otherwise GOOD relationships after being married for a while, and those women were seeking solutions for it. That sure seemed to me like the women were involved in the process and it wasn't all on the man.


Very true. The women in the article were clearly not happy with their situation and were trying to do something about it.

Can't ask for much more than that.

I guess my concern would be regarding women to whom this has happened but who are not aware of what's going on and, therefore, not trying to fix it.

It seems like it would be helpful if people knew that this could be a "thing".


----------



## Buddy400

Anon1111 said:


> I have the same experience as you
> 
> I basically do special occasions on a case by case basis at this point rather than have a blanket policy.
> 
> As in, if I feel like doing something nice without expectation that the favor will be returned, I will do it, if I don't, I won't.
> 
> I've found that this approach diminishes the sense that you are getting the short end of the stick without eliminating the possibility that you can be nice just to be nice, without expectation of return.


So, what's your wife make of your behavior these days?

I know you're not looking to change her, but I'm kinda curious if she's noticed anything different.


----------



## Anon1111

Buddy400 said:


> So, what's your wife make of your behavior these days?
> 
> I know you're not looking to change her, but I'm kinda curious if she's noticed anything different.


she's more respectful.

marriage still sucks but much less drama.


----------



## Lila

Anon1111 said:


> What's weird is that there seems to be a generally accepted attitude that the man should always be upping his game, keeping the relationship fresh, etc.
> 
> I rarely see any suggestion here or elsewhere that women have a corresponding obligation to up their game, keep the relationship fresh etc.
> 
> On the contrary, there seems to be a general expectation that a man should accept his wife as she is, and if he doesn't, he is a sh-tlord.
> 
> That to me is total BS. If I have to be in tip top shape, funny, outgoing, thoughtful, etc, then I expect a woman to put in the same effort.
> 
> If that's not the deal, there is no deal.


Maybe it's your perspective but I can tell you for a fact that it's not just men who get told to become more physically attractive or emotionally nurturing to keep the relationship fresh. It's typically the _HD_ partner, male or female, that gets told to do more. I was told all of these things when I posted about my situation with my husband. 

Here's what I have learned. Just because my husband doesn't think I'm the bee's knees doesn't mean I'm not someone else's bee's knees. Mark my words.....one person's trash is another person's treasure.


----------



## EleGirl

nirvana said:


> Yes, that is the notion being put forth in the media everyday.
> 
> Ele said that women's mags tell women how to improve their game and I agree with her too.
> 
> but that media is very small compared to the propaganda that puts the onus on men.
> 
> I realized that my birthday nowadays is neglected. No one even takes me (us as a family) out to dinner any more and the last 2 years this has been skipped. My wife bakes a cake for me and makes us a nice dinner. Yes, she does that. But thr tradition is to also go out for dinner so I can have something I rarely have (steak). I end up taking her out to some fancy place on her birthday and buying her gifts and taking her out on a date. What she does for me is waayyyy less than what I do for her. For our anniversary, she does nothing and I do everything. It is OUR anniversary, not just hers. Same thing for Valentine's day.
> 
> So I have decided to do everything on a reciprocal basis from now on. Whatever you do for me, I will do that and throw in 10% more. No more of "you nothing and I everything".


Are you saying that your wife's not doing as much for your birthday, as compared to what you do for her birthday, is due to "propaganda that puts the onus on men"?


----------



## no name

nirvana said:


> Silly personal attacks is all you can do!
> 
> Same old male bashing that goes on here and in society in general.
> 
> Women today get a great deal with marriage. Men, not as much. This is 2016, not the old days where it is okay to beat one's wife or steal away all her rights.
> 
> So yes, if a man's reasonable needs are not being met, I think he should go and have an affair. That would jolt his lazy wife out of her reverie. If she didn't care, then it would work well for the man too. Win-win!




I guess your wife/so or future wife should do and feel the same to you then?! You both cheat together. I simply don't agree with you at all , there really would be no point getting married otherwise, if having affairs are such an easy solution. This not an attack, I simply am expressing that I don't agree. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## john117

Anon1111 said:


> I have the same experience as you
> 
> I basically do special occasions on a case by case basis at this point rather than have a blanket policy.
> 
> As in, if I feel like doing something nice without expectation that the favor will be returned, I will do it, if I don't, I won't.
> 
> I've found that this approach diminishes the sense that you are getting the short end of the stick without eliminating the possibility that you can be nice just to be nice, without expectation of return.


Not me. A few years ago I did this as well. A bit of EMV (expected mean value) convinced me of the futility of the approach.


----------



## Personal

...


----------



## EllisRedding

nirvana said:


> A lot of women seem to use this "I am a mom" excuse to wriggle out of any situation. It is like some people use race or religion to blackmail others.
> I understand some women who don't like BJs and have never done or liked it. But if a woman has done it before, I don't see a good reason why she should stop it completely after getting married or after kids. It is a slimy bait and switch scam.


In this example I completely agree. I mean, I can understand some things not wanting to do when you are a parent that you may have done prior (IDK, something like having sex in public as an example). However, given that she would very freely give him BJs and now says she won't b/c she is a mom, it is either a classic bait & switch or she has another issue within the relationship and finds it easier to just fall back on the "I am a mom" bs.


----------



## nirvana

EleGirl said:


> Are you saying that your wife's not doing as much for your birthday, as compared to what you do for her birthday, is due to "propaganda that puts the onus on men"?


I think they are connected. Modern society and the media makes it seem that such events (anniversaries, V day etc) are boy doing things for girl. Girl doing things for boy seems to have become politically incorrect and somehow has gotten linked to being old fashioned.


----------



## nirvana

no name said:


> I guess your wife/so or future wife should do and feel the same to you then?! You both cheat together. I simply don't agree with you at all , there really would be no point getting married otherwise, if having affairs are such an easy solution. This not an attack, I simply am expressing that I don't agree.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is fine that we differ in opinion. 

I do not agree with cheating in general. I am high on loyalty to spouse and to friends. But I also expect the same in return. 

If my wife does not behave in a reasonable wife-like manner, it is cheating. I married a woman to be my wife, not my room-mate. If she can cheat, then so can I. 

My feeling is you are against cheating in ALL conditions and I now think it is okay under certain conditions. 

If a woman is afraid her husband might look outside, then it might motivate her to up her game and not take him for granted. It's just like at work, if we slack, we get fired. That motivates us to work as hard as we can. If no one got fired, there would be few working hard. That is how many Government offices in India are (or were).

PS: I have not cheated.


----------



## nirvana

Personal said:


> Depending upon how you change your mind it can sometimes lead to a particular woman wanting and can certainly lead to other women wanting you.
> @nirvana is his own worst enemy! Until he figures that out and changes positively, he will continue to remain mired in a mess of his own contribution.



What you say may be true theoretically but not practically. If a wife has issues that she has to fix in herself, there is not much her husband can do beyond a point. 

My present stance is to be nice to my wife and not do or say anything that I will repent saying no matter what the provocation. I should not look back and say "Yes I said X but only because my wife say Y". That would be a personal failing. It's not easy. The next thing I am doing is not hanker after validation from her. That isn't easy either. I have helped her a lot in her education and getting her in a career but she has never mentioned or appreciated it. She likes to congratulate herself on her quick progress and when I chip in that I helped her, she gets annoyed. Again, I should just let it go.

I've just joined a gym starting Saturday to improve myself on that front. 

The problem lies when you crave for something that someone else has and the other person is unscrupulous enough to realize this and use that as leverage. When you say "F it", then there is no leverage.


----------



## Good Guy

NobodySpecial said:


> No... but... The person with the issue is always the one who has to act. Status quo remains for people who don't have an issue. The whole concept of "have to" be nice, warm, loving... to get sex... is a HUGE turn off. I want a man who WANTS to be those things with me. Does she "have to" just have sex because she is married?


Speaking as someone who was in a dead bedroom for a long time ...

Why do wives assume a guy is being nice to them just to get sex? If it's some random stranger in a bar, then YES he is probably being nice to get sex ... I was nice to my wife because I loved her, and got very little sex. Newsflash: I was nice to anyone I liked, not just her - male and female - with no expectation of sex !!!!

Now I'm not half as nice to her, because I don't love her, or at least not in the way I used to, I get way more sex - maybe because she thinks I'm not being nice just to get sex? OR she likes me being less attentive to her? I don't know.

I now have the mentality that if my wife won't have sex with me, I will just go to an escort, and I've told her that. You know how many times I've gone to an escort in the last 18 or so months (or ever)? Zero. Maybe it's manipulation, but it beats the hell out of being manipulated. I thought there was love there on her side but there isn't - or it's the type of love that's there as long as I'm fulfilling her needs 100% financially and emotionally, if it drops below that she will look for someone else. I'm fine with that, as it suits me for now. I'd be fine with divorce too.

At least this way I'm getting most of what I want. A wife who loves me for who I am without mind games, anxieties etc would be nice but that seems not to exist. If my wife actually loved me SHE would have acknowledged there WAS a problem when I brought it up several times, and at least TRIED to do something about it. So I disagree with your point partially - it is the HD partner's duty to bring it up but the LD partner should DO something too !

I always thought you were nice (i.e. thoughtful and treated with respect) to people you liked - turns out I was wrong, at least in the case of most of the people I have known. Most people think it's some kind of game to them to see how much crap you will put up with.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Good Guy said:


> Speaking as someone who was in a dead bedroom for a long time ...
> 
> Why do wives assume a guy is being nice to them just to get sex?



Head over to SIM. Loads of dudes do stuff just to get sex. Don't give a sh!t about their wives feelings.


----------



## nirvana

Good Guy said:


> Speaking as someone who was in a dead bedroom for a long time ...
> 
> Why do wives assume a guy is being nice to them just to get sex? If it's some random stranger in a bar, then YES he is probably being nice to get sex ... I was nice to my wife because I loved her, and got very little sex. Newsflash: I was nice to anyone I liked, not just her - male and female - with no expectation of sex !!!!
> 
> Now I'm not half as nice to her, because I don't love her, or at least not in the way I used to, I get way more sex - maybe because she thinks I'm not being nice just to get sex? OR she likes me being less attentive to her? I don't know.
> 
> I now have the mentality that if my wife won't have sex with me, I will just go to an escort, and I've told her that. You know how many times I've gone to an escort in the last 18 or so months (or ever)? Zero. Maybe it's manipulation, but it beats the hell out of being manipulated. I thought there was love there on her side but there isn't - or it's the type of love that's there as long as I'm fulfilling her needs 100% financially and emotionally, if it drops below that she will look for someone else. I'm fine with that, as it suits me for now. I'd be fine with divorce too.
> 
> At least this way I'm getting most of what I want. A wife who loves me for who I am without mind games, anxieties etc would be nice but that seems not to exist. If my wife actually loved me SHE would have acknowledged there WAS a problem when I brought it up several times, and at least TRIED to do something about it. So I disagree with your point partially - it is the HD partner's duty to bring it up but the LD partner should DO something too !
> 
> I always thought you were nice (i.e. thoughtful and treated with respect) to people you liked - turns out I was wrong, at least in the case of most of the people I have known. Most people think it's some kind of game to them to see how much crap you will put up with.


You mirror my experience and thoughts, brother.

I am nice to everyone, whether it is a CEO or a waiter. Indians generally behave differently to different people, but I don't believe in that. I would go above and beyond for my wife that none of her friends husbands did. I was never a doormat though. I treated her as an equal and helped her build her career. But in return it was the old manipulation game and complaining, and comparing with other people. 

Sometimes I get fed up and stay aloof and that's when she comes by and acts in a way that I like. Isn't it weird? She is sweet when I am pissed and want to be away from her. When I am feeling love and hug or kiss her, she brushes me away. Many men have this experience which makes me feel that many female have some problem in their thinking process. They respect guys who treat them like crap?

Life is full of people who want to control you. Even your wife. This was shocking part to me. And many ladies will blame you for not doing this or that (which you can never fully satisfy) and books and relationship experts tell you that you are a "nice guy".


----------



## mrsbride

I'm sorry you're in this situation. I wish I knew the answer because my husband is in a similar situation. We do have sex at least twice a week, but I don't want to. I cringe when he touches me because I know he's always thinking about sex and I just don't have those feelings about him. I think it's partly because the newness, excitement, challenge, and hormones are long gone. I also feel resentful and pressured about it. I think the feelings would come back with a new relationship, but I want it with my husband and don't know what to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tech-novelist

karole said:


> Using sex as control or withholding sex as punishment?? If I withhold sex from my husband, aren't I also punishing myself? Kinda of like the old saying, "Cutting off my nose to spite my face?"


Cutting off sex would punish the cutter-off only if he/she prefers sex to control. But if that were the case, he/she wouldn't cut off sex in the first place.


----------



## EllisRedding

Good Guy said:


> Speaking as someone who was in a dead bedroom for a long time ...
> 
> Why do wives assume a guy is being nice to them just to get sex? If it's some random stranger in a bar, then YES he is probably being nice to get sex ... I was nice to my wife because I loved her, and got very little sex. Newsflash: I was nice to anyone I liked, not just her - male and female - with no expectation of sex !!!!


It can just as easily be an excuse to maintain control over sex. Lets say W really has no desire to have sex with H (for one reason or another). He asks why, what can he do to change things. She doesn't want to rock the boat and lose all the other things she has in the marriage, so instead she lists out X/Y/Z, he does it, and then she can easily push him off by saying that he only did if for sex (no $hit, that was clearly the point). On top of that, she can just keep changing or adding to the XYZs so sex becomes something that realistically is not achievable.

Now, I am in no way saying this is always the case by any means, and I think there are many people who are truly genuine in working things out. The whole "You are just doing it for sex" statement just rings hollow at times, especially when in a committed relationship sex SHOULD BE part of the equation.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> In this example I completely agree. I mean, I can understand some things not wanting to do when you are a parent that you may have done prior (IDK, something like having sex in public as an example). However, given that she would very freely give him BJs and now says she won't b/c she is a mom, it is either a classic bait & switch or she has another issue within the relationship and finds it easier to just fall back on the "I am a mom" bs.


No I don't think it is a classic bait and switch. I did it. Instead of focusing on the right stuff, loving my husband, loving my burgeoning family, I focused on my ROLE. Mom was my new ROLE. And I was not prepared for it. I think things can be different for mothers than for fathers. My husband is a fantastic father. But he does not feel, as I do, as if his heart is out there walking around without him. I really did see my position in life as altered when I became a Mom. MOM. You have no idea what sh!t you get when you are about to be a MOM. Hint: Dad does not get the same level of expectation of perfection.

It was many years ago for me. But it did take some doing to go from nursing, shopping, diapering person to sexy person. Marital difficulties are so often placed out of context to the rest of life. And they should not be. Luckily my husband was able to help me understand what turning into a freakish Mom focused person would do to him. And to us. But it is not as simple as .... fVck off, I have kids now.


----------



## nirvana

^-- Ellis, you said it well.
It's nothing but a slimy control tactic. If a woman expects for her emotional needs to be met, the man can expect his sexual needs to be met. A man can do his bit first, but there must be reciprocation. A marriage must be worthwhile for both parties. Marriage is not for a woman to just use the man for his paycheck while she gets her love needs met through her kids while blaming the husband and moving the goalposts so that the man is always running and his needs are never met.
If he has an affair, then society condemns him as a bad person and the manipulative wife comes out smelling of roses.

This is the situation many men see themselves in.


----------



## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> No I don't think it is a classic bait and switch. I did it. Instead of focusing on the right stuff, loving my husband, loving my burgeoning family, I focused on my ROLE. Mom was my new ROLE. And I was not prepared for it. I think things can be different for mothers than for fathers. My husband is a fantastic father. But he does not feel, as I do, as if his heart is out there walking around without him. I really did see my position in life as altered when I became a Mom. MOM. You have no idea what sh!t you get when you are about to be a MOM. Hint: Dad does not get the same level of expectation of perfection.
> 
> It was many years ago for me. But it did take some doing to go from nursing, shopping, diapering person to sexy person. Marital difficulties are so often placed out of context to the rest of life. And they should not be. Luckily my husband was able to help me understand what turning into a freakish Mom focused person would do to him. And to us. But it is not as simple as .... fVck off, I have kids now.


In all fairness I don't think you can say it is or isn't a classic bait n switch b/c everyones situation will be different. With you, and I can see why, it was in no way bait n switch. In his case his wife has been a Mom for almost 14 years, not something that just happened recently and she is coming to terms with it. This goes along with other comments she has made to him (keeping in mind, I only get his side of the story) basically implying that they don't need to have sex frequently b/c they are past that stage in their relationship. Keep in mind, all he asked her was if she would give him a BJ if he asked for it. Her response was "No, I am a mom now, that is for a mistress to do.". It is not like he said he wants to go back to having wild sex every day like the good old days.


----------



## Buddy400

mrsbride said:


> I'm sorry you're in this situation. I wish I knew the answer because my husband is in a similar situation. We do have sex at least twice a week, but I don't want to. I cringe when he touches me because I know he's always thinking about sex and I just don't have those feelings about him. I think it's partly because the newness, excitement, challenge, and hormones are long gone. I also feel resentful and pressured about it. I think the feelings would come back with a new relationship, but I want it with my husband and don't know what to do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is there anything you could come up with that your husband could do to improve things? If so, let him know what they are.

If not, then if you want you're marriage to last, you'll need to investigate ways for you to get your mojo back.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> It can just as easily be an excuse to maintain control over sex. Lets say W really has no desire to have sex with H (for one reason or another). He asks why, what can he do to change things.


Oh boy. This can be a sticky wicket. What do you say? When I was there, do I tell him that your laziness is killing me? That your desire to remain a child and substitute a wife for a mother to clean your room is not what I had envisioned in marriage? I actually did. But I only did with the help of insightful people who knew that the thing that was killing me was not the housework, it was the resentment. How many people could get that clarity on their own?





> She doesn't want to rock the boat and lose all the other things she has in the marriage, so instead she lists out X/Y/Z, he does it, and then she can easily push him off by saying that he only did if for sex (no $hit, that was clearly the point).


But why? Why is that the point? Is he not also a partner in the house and family? Are her concerns not valid on their merit, not just a checklist to achieve more hole time?



> On top of that, she can just keep changing or adding to the XYZs so sex becomes something that realistically is not achievable.


Yup. Until they understand that the partnership is missing and that the resentment has snuck in, they are both lost.

Now, I am in no way saying this is always the case by any means, and I think there are many people who are truly genuine in working things out. The whole "You are just doing it for sex" statement just rings hollow at times, especially when in a committed relationship sex SHOULD BE part of the equation.[/QUOTE]

Of course it should. As engaged participants who are genuinely interested in it. As should parenting. But most importantly, engaged fun.


----------



## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> But why? Why is that the point? Is he not also a partner in the house and family? Are her concerns not valid on their merit, not just a checklist to achieve more hole time?


I am looking at it from the perspective of those wives (or let's say spouse to keep it gender neutral) who just have no interest in having sex with their H. The "checklist" becomes a convenient way to dodge this aspect of their relationship (i.e. they no longer desire their spouse sexually, but want all the other things that come with the relationship). Also, the checklist doesn't have to be just house/family related, it could easily be "you never do ABC for me", etc...



NobodySpecial said:


> Of course it should. As engaged participants who are genuinely interested in it. As should parenting. But most importantly, engaged fun.


Agreed. I am trying to look at it from both angles. One side being that where I was in the midst (or on the border) of a sexless marriage. The other angle being one where my W and I talked about, she was genuinely interested in making things work, and for the most part we have been off to the races ever since


----------



## Buddy400

Good Guy said:


> Now I'm not half as nice to her, because I don't love her, or at least not in the way I used to, I get way more sex
> 
> ... A wife who loves me for who I am without mind games, anxieties etc would be nice but that seems not to exist. If my wife actually loved me SHE would have acknowledged there WAS a problem when I brought it up several times, and at least TRIED to do something about it.





nirvana said:


> Sometimes I get fed up and stay aloof and that's when she comes by and acts in a way that I like. Isn't it weird? She is sweet when I am pissed and want to be away from her. When I am feeling love and hug or kiss her, she brushes me away. Many men have this experience which makes me feel that many female have some problem in their thinking process. They respect guys who treat them like crap?





mrsbride said:


> I just don't have those feelings about him. I think it's partly because the newness, excitement, challenge, and hormones are long gone. .... I think the feelings would come back with a new relationship, but I want it with my husband and don't know what to do.
> [/size]


I don't know how often this stuff really happens. But this is what leads to the perception many men have that women like guys who are "bad" to them. We find the idea that being nice to our wives may lead to them losing attraction to us to be perverse.

It seems that there IS something about women losing attraction for a guy who's demonstrated commitment to them and gaining attraction when they feel that commitment waning or when trying to win it in the first place. 

In these cases, having the husband try harder isn't going to help and may actually hurt. Getting the woman to acknowledge that a problem exists and committed to looking for solutions may be the only option. 

Saying "I am not willing to stay in a sexless marriage" is probably the best way to make this happen. The problem is that, to work, one has to be willing to end the relationship. But, at that point, it may be too late.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> I am looking at it from the perspective of those wives (or let's say spouse to keep it gender neutral) who just have no interest in having sex with their H. The "checklist" becomes a convenient way to dodge this aspect of their relationship (i.e. they no longer desire their spouse sexually, but want all the other things that come with the relationship). Also, the checklist doesn't have to be just house/family related, it could easily be "you never do ABC for me", etc...


I guess I think that happens less than we think. They THINK that the housework is the issue. They THINK that the child care is the issue. But why would someone who wants a loving relationship no longer want a loving relationship? It is the resentment. Not the housework. And when they up the housework game to get more sex, that fails to address the resentment. The lack of partnership.


----------



## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess I think that happens less than we think. They THINK that the housework is the issue. They THINK that the child care is the issue. But why would someone who wants a loving relationship no longer want a loving relationship? It is the resentment. Not the housework. And when they up the housework game to get more sex, that fails to address the resentment. The lack of partnership.


Maybe b/c I am a guy, but I hear this more often then not from other guys. I think you do highlight one issue though, but that also can cause problems. So W says H never helps out around the house, H makes changes to help around the house. How does the underlying resentment get addressed then? If H is trying to make the changes asked for, should the W not be making some effort as well? Not saying that the moment he starts vacuuming she should get nekked and hump like rabbits. However, if he is making the effort to make the changes asked, she should also make an effort to work on the resentment she has, it is something they should both be working on together. This for some just leads to a mixed message, the old "Happy Wife Happy Life" message many of us have heard passed along.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess I think that happens less than we think. They THINK that the housework is the issue. They THINK that the child care is the issue. But why would someone who wants a loving relationship no longer want a loving relationship? It is the resentment. Not the housework. And when they up the housework game to get more sex, that fails to address the resentment. The lack of partnership.


I think the number 1 issue is getting the partner who is avoiding sex to realize that there IS a problem for the relationship. This is not to say that the problem exists with the person avoiding sex.

Then it can be determined if it's resentment, loss of attraction, lack of house work, etc.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> Oh boy. This can be a sticky wicket. What do you say? When I was there, do I tell him that your laziness is killing me? That your desire to remain a child and substitute a wife for a mother to clean your room is not what I had envisioned in marriage? I actually did. But I only did with the help of insightful people who knew that the thing that was killing me was not the housework, it was the resentment. How many people could get that clarity on their own?


I thought, in your case, his laziness had been resolved prior to him bringing up the sexless marriage issue?


----------



## norajane

EllisRedding said:


> Maybe b/c I am a guy, but I hear this more often then not from other guys. I think you do highlight one issue though, but that also can cause problems. So W says H never helps out around the house, H makes changes to help around the house. How does the underlying resentment get addressed then? If H is trying to make the changes asked for, should the W not be making some effort as well? Not saying that the moment he starts vacuuming she should get nekked and hump like rabbits. However, if he is making the effort to make the changes asked, she should also make an effort to work on the resentment she has, it is something they should both be working on together. This for some just leads to a mixed message, the old "Happy Wife Happy Life" message many of us have heard passed along.


It takes a long, long time to get over resentment that was a long, long time in building. He will need to consistently, over a long period of time, share in the housework responsibilities with his wife before she will trust that his change is because he understands and agrees that he is also responsible for housework and isn't just doing it for sex. 

It's not magic; it's consistent actions and attitude over time.


----------



## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess I think that happens less than we think. They THINK that the housework is the issue. They THINK that the child care is the issue. But why would someone who wants a loving relationship no longer want a loving relationship? It is the resentment. Not the housework. And when they up the housework game to get more sex, that fails to address the resentment. The lack of partnership.


Housework can one an issue, but not one that is all the time. In my case, I work on everything that is outside the house like bills, lawn, fixing, investments etc etc and also trash and dishwashing and my laundry. She does all the cooking and we share the cleaning though she does more than me. Roughly, we share equally.

The problem is when people love the notion of getting to control someone. That is a drug that is dangerous. In that case even if the H does all the housework the W will complain about something because she wants to control him and show off to her friends.


----------



## nirvana

norajane said:


> It takes a long, long time to get over resentment that was a long, long time in building. He will need to consistently, over a long period of time, share in the housework responsibilities with his wife before she will trust that his change is because he understands and agrees that he is also responsible for housework and isn't just doing it for sex.
> 
> It's not magic; it's consistent actions and attitude over time.


If she needs a long long time, then he will probably be dead by then. Best thing for him is to divorce her and find someone who will appreciate him, or just go and have an affair and she can spend her time resenting him when he no longer cares (since he is banging someone else).

I am assuming he has done everything he can and shares the house work and other chores. If she still resents him then she does not deserve him. This is an old trick that I see is used everywhere.


----------



## EllisRedding

norajane said:


> It takes a long, long time to get over resentment that was a long, long time in building. He will need to consistently, over a long period of time, share in the housework responsibilities with his wife before she will trust that his change is because he understands and agrees that he is also responsible for housework and isn't just doing it for sex.
> 
> It's not magic; it's consistent actions and attitude over time.


So this brings up the next question if she has developed this much resentment for a long time, why was it not addressed earlier? Maybe it was and he kept brushing her off. Maybe she never brought it up before b/c he should just know? Who knows? However, if it finally gets through to him and he is making the effort, she should be making some sort of effort as well. Even though it may take time to completely get over the resentment, basically giving the cold shoulder until you are completely over seems unacceptable if the goal is to be a team. It also sets a bad precedent where once again, she is now in complete control over sex, and can just fall back on "I am not completely over my resentment" whenever she wants to reject him.


----------



## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> So this brings up the next question if she has developed this much resentment for a long time, why was it not addressed earlier? Maybe it was and he kept brushing her off. Maybe she never brought it up before b/c he should just know? Who knows? However, if it finally gets through to him and he is making the effort, she should be making some sort of effort as well. Even though it may take time to completely get over the resentment, basically giving the cold shoulder until you are completely over seems unacceptable if the goal is to be a team. It also sets a bad precedent where once again, she is now in complete control over sex, and can just fall back on "I am not completely over my resentment" whenever she wants to reject him.


And that's assuming that his lack of housework was even the actual problem in the first place.


----------



## john117

The resentment may not be towards him, but he's a convenient placeholder so off with it he goes.

Magical thinking at its best?


----------



## norajane

nirvana said:


> If she needs a long long time, then he will probably be dead by then. Best thing for him is to divorce her and find someone who will appreciate him, or just go and have an affair and she can spend her time resenting him when he no longer cares (since he is banging someone else).
> 
> I am assuming he has done everything he can and shares the house work and other chores. If she still resents him then she does not deserve him. This is an old trick that I see is used everywhere.


No, best thing would have been for him to have actually taken responsibility for part of the housework in the house he lives in all along, thus freeing both of them to do fun things together all along, and preventing the resentment from forming.

If there is so much resentment built up over a long time that it takes a long time to fix, that is what happens when mountains of resentment build up. As an example, there are men here who turn their wives down when they offer sex because their resentment is off the charts for all the times they were rejected over the years.


----------



## norajane

EllisRedding said:


> So this brings up the next question if she has developed this much resentment for a long time, why was it not addressed earlier? Maybe it was and he kept brushing her off. Maybe she never brought it up before b/c he should just know? Who knows? However, if it finally gets through to him and he is making the effort, she should be making some sort of effort as well. Even though it may take time to completely get over the resentment, basically giving the cold shoulder until you are completely over seems unacceptable if the goal is to be a team. It also sets a bad precedent where once again, she is now in complete control over sex, and can just fall back on "I am not completely over my resentment" whenever she wants to reject him.


We aren't talking about anyone in particular, so it's hard to speak in generalities. Every couple will behave differently in this scenario, and god only know what else is going on between them. If they've finally had a "come to Jesus" moment and are both trying to fix things, then both can be taking steps, but who knows? Is this a 20 year relationship where the wife has felt burdened and resentful? Or a 2 year relationship where the couple is still learning how to treat each other? Different scenarios, different levels of resentment, different methodologies apply. NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL ANSWER.

And I'll say it again, if all he is concerned about is getting the sex, then it is generally very clear to the wife that is why he is doing the housework rather than him actually changing his perspective on being responsible for his part in the household. It seems guys want a quick, easy, coin operated fix. Relationships don't work that way.


----------



## Married but Happy

norajane said:


> No, best thing would have been for him to have actually taken responsibility for part of the housework in the house he lives in all along, thus freeing both of them to do fun things together all along, and preventing the resentment from forming.
> 
> If there is so much resentment built up over a long time that it takes a long time to fix, that is what happens when mountains of resentment build up. As an example, there are men here who turn their wives down when they offer sex because their resentment is off the charts for all the times they were rejected over the years.


Yes, that would have been best. But, if that isn't the case, then trying to fix it now may be nearly impossible, and perhaps not worth the effort unless they both make an effort to improve things going forward. Otherwise, I'd suggest it's easier to take away some lessons, and start over with someone new where there's no pre-existing baggage.


----------



## Buddy400

norajane said:


> It seems guys want a quick, easy, coin operated fix. Relationships don't work that way.


It doesn't need to be an quick, easy, coin operated fix. 

I think guys just want to know that there's a problem and a hint or two on how to fix it.


----------



## norajane

Married but Happy said:


> Yes, that would have been best. But, if that isn't the case, then trying to fix it now may be nearly impossible, and perhaps not worth the effort unless they both make an effort to improve things going forward. Otherwise, I'd suggest it's easier to take away some lessons, and start over with someone new where there's no pre-existing baggage.


Yes, I completely agree.


----------



## EllisRedding

norajane said:


> And I'll say it again, if all he is concerned about is getting the sex, then it is generally very clear to the wife that is why he is doing the housework rather than him actually changing his perspective on being responsible for his part in the household.


Seriously though, why does it matter. If he asks her why the lack of interest in sex, she specifically states that he does not carry his weight at home. He makes the necessary changes as requested by her, what is the problem? If he is doing his part, whether it be for sex or not, what is so wrong with that, he is still doing what she said she needed him to do? Does his heart and soul have to be into housework


----------



## norajane

EllisRedding said:


> Seriously though, why does it matter. If he asks her why the lack of interest in sex, she specifically states that he does not carry his weight at home. He makes the necessary changes as requested by her, what is the problem? If he is doing his part, whether it be for sex or not, what is so wrong with that, he is still doing what she said she needed him to do? Does his heart and soul have to be into housework


Well, that's the thing. The guy that genuinely sees that she has a point about sharing housework will continue to do the housework consistently over the long period of time it takes to build trust and get over resentment. The guy just doing it to get sex will start slacking off once he realizes she isn't quickly over her resentment in the (usually) short time he's been stepping up to do the housework, and then they go back to square 1.


----------



## EllisRedding

norajane said:


> Well, that's the thing. The guy that genuinely sees that she has a point about sharing housework will continue to do the housework consistently over the long period of time it takes to build trust and get over resentment. *The guy just doing it to get sex will start slacking off once he realizes she isn't quickly over her resentment in the (usually) short time he's been stepping up to do the housework, and they go back to square 1*.


Well, that is an assumption. I would bet you a guy in a sexless marriage would continue doing what was needed to keep the sex going if that is his motivation. In your example once again though with her resentment, this implies that she is making no effort to work with him until some unknown time in the distant future. As I said before, it is not like things should magically go back to how they were, but there should be slow improvement ON BOTH SIDES.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I thought, in your case, his laziness had been resolved prior to him bringing up the sexless marriage issue?


No. On the timeline they were at about the same time. Early, thankfully.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> Housework can one an issue, but not one that is all the time. In my case, I work on everything that is outside the house like bills, lawn, fixing, investments etc etc and also trash and dishwashing and my laundry. She does all the cooking and we share the cleaning though she does more than me. Roughly, we share equally.
> 
> The problem is when people love the notion of getting to control someone. That is a drug that is dangerous. In that case even if the H does all the housework the W will complain about something because she wants to control him and show off to her friends.


Not sure why you would want to be married to that person. But that is just me.


----------



## EleGirl

Buddy400 said:


> It doesn't need to be an quick, easy, coin operated fix.
> 
> I think guys just want to know that there's a problem and a hint or two on how to fix it.


Some women find that they can give not hints, but very clear statements of what the issues are and how to fix them. Yet these are simply ignored, never addressed. Often called nagging and *****ing. There are plenty of men who just blow it off.


----------



## EleGirl

nirvana said:


> The problem is when people love the notion of getting to control someone. That is a drug that is dangerous. In that case even if the H does all the housework the W will complain about something because she wants to control him and show off to her friends.


There is of course no one type of marriage problem.

Sometimes there is the dynamic that you talk about here.

But there are others. Another prevalent one is where it's the guy who is hook on the drug of controlling someone. And he takes the attitude that there is no way in hell that he's going to anything like housework. Some times these types will not do anything inside or outside the house.


----------



## EllisRedding

EleGirl said:


> Some women find that they can give not hints, but very clear statements of what the issues are and how to fix them. Yet these are simply ignored, never addressed. Often called nagging and *****ing. There are plenty of men who just blow it off.


That is something my W and I have talked about and finally got on the same page with. I don't do well with hints or "I should just know". This typically just leaves me in my own fantasy world that consists of midgets and farting unicorns. The more direct the better, and that seems to work the best for both of us, and pretty much eliminated any misunderstandings.


----------



## 2ntnuf

EllisRedding said:


> Seriously though, why does it matter. If he asks her why the lack of interest in sex, she specifically states that he does not carry his weight at home. He makes the necessary changes as requested by her, what is the problem? If he is doing his part, whether it be for sex or not, what is so wrong with that, he is still doing what she said she needed him to do? *Does his heart and soul have to be into housework *


No, she can't forgive him. That's the reason for no time limits. 

She doesn't know when she will be able to forgive and not let the past bother her. She also doesn't know if she will ever again have those feelings of wanting to have sex with him. 

Anything you do will not be noticed much until she forgives you.

You cannot make her forgive you. You cannot make anyone forgive you. It's up to them. What you do in remorse for your previous failings might help to shorten the time, but there are no guarantees. No one could guarantee that. 

Some may even have to get revenge just to be able to forgive. That's where acting out by going out with the girls and not coming home till late, heavy flirting, not defending her marriage from an interloper, overspending, or even infidelity comes from in many of these types of circumstances where revenge is the goal. 

Obviously, there are many other ways to handle this. Some handle these things better than others. 

Just my take on this.


----------



## no name

nirvana said:


> It is fine that we differ in opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not agree with cheating in general. I am high on loyalty to spouse and to friends. But I also expect the same in return.
> 
> 
> 
> If my wife does not behave in a reasonable wife-like manner, it is cheating. I married a woman to be my wife, not my room-mate. If she can cheat, then so can I.
> 
> 
> 
> My feeling is you are against cheating in ALL conditions and I now think it is okay under certain conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman is afraid her husband might look outside, then it might motivate her to up her game and not take him for granted. It's just like at work, if we slack, we get fired. That motivates us to work as hard as we can. If no one got fired, there would be few working hard. That is how many Government offices in India are (or were).
> 
> 
> 
> PS: I have not cheated.




I am curious, Does your wife know your policy about cheating? If so, does she feel the same towards you? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Starstarfish

> If he is doing his part, whether it be for sex or not, what is so wrong with that, he is still doing what she said she needed him to do? Does his heart and soul have to be into housework


It depends on the attitude. If you've swapped not helping with the covert contract of "Well there I did the laundry, let's have sex now" it doesn't really improve things. I mean, really what is desired I'd imagine is a functional adult companion who recognizes that if he (or she) wasn't in a relationship with someone else to help with these tasks, even living alone they would still need to cook, do the laundry, clean their house, etc. 

Also, the same question could be asked, if I mean, I'm having sex with you what's so wrong with that? I'm doing what you said needed doing, why does my heart and soul have to be into it?

Because the attitude kills it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> Well, that is an assumption. I would bet you a guy in a sexless marriage would continue doing what was needed to keep the sex going if that is his motivation. In your example once again though with her resentment, this implies that she is making no effort to work with him until some unknown time in the distant future. As I said before, it is not like things should magically go back to how they were, but there should be slow improvement ON BOTH SIDES.


For me, the idea that he is doing that which is really also his responsibility just to get sex makes him a child in my mind. It is not a matter of partnership. Of managing the details of life. It is doing a chore to get allowance. 

One thing that my husband did was establish his expectation of having a good sex life as SEPARATE from the expectation of managing life. One thing that I did was establish firm boundaries and lifted the veil of clueless from his eyes about what it takes to run a household and raise kids. If he had simply done chores in an expectation of receiving sex, that would have been a killer turn off.


----------



## EllisRedding

Starstarfish said:


> It depends on the attitude. If you've swapped not helping with the covert contract of "Well there I did the laundry, let's have sex now" it doesn't really improve things. I mean, really what is desired I'd imagine is a functional adult companion who recognizes that if he (or she) wasn't in a relationship with someone else to help with these tasks, even living alone they would still need to cook, do the laundry, clean their house, etc.
> 
> Also, the same question could be asked, if I mean, I'm having sex with you what's so wrong with that? I'm doing what you said needed doing, why does my heart and soul have to be into it?
> 
> Because the attitude kills it.





NobodySpecial said:


> For me, the idea that he is doing that which is really also his responsibility just to get sex makes him a child in my mind. It is not a matter of partnership. Of managing the details of life. It is doing a chore to get allowance.
> 
> One thing that my husband did was establish his expectation of having a good sex life as SEPARATE from the expectation of managing life. One thing that I did was establish firm boundaries and lifted the veil of clueless from his eyes about what it takes to run a household and raise kids. If he had simply done chores in an expectation of receiving sex, that would have been a killer turn off.


Curious, why is it when the topic of housework comes up, it is assumed that it is solely the Husband's fault? In many cases, both people typically have some role in the issue


----------



## UMP

EllisRedding said:


> Seriously though, why does it matter. If he asks her why the lack of interest in sex, she specifically states that he does not carry his weight at home. He makes the necessary changes as requested by her, what is the problem? If he is doing his part, whether it be for sex or not, what is so wrong with that, he is still doing what she said she needed him to do? Does his heart and soul have to be into housework


Problem is women are strange creatures from a different planet.
As an example, for our 25 year anniversary I wrote my wife a long letter (which I have never done before) explaining my devotion and love for her. She liked the letter, but strangely grew cold afterwards.

The letter was TOO honest, it was TOO much an opening of my heart. So what did I do?
I kind of backed off a bit, started losing more weight, doing my own thing. Guess what happened?

She came back cooing.

I just LOVE women!!!


----------



## Starstarfish

I was answering this specific case in which people (IE - you) were discussing a husband doing the chores he's been asked to help with forever, and then wanting to know why that didn't seem to more immediately turn the wife's resentment around and want to have sex again. 

You yourself used a male pronouns indicating we were discussing a male being the chore-reluctant partner. 

At no point did I assume or state that failing to do housework is solely a husband's fault. But I stand by my thought that it's far more likely for a husband to use doing chores as a covert contract for sex than a wife to do the same thing. 

Also, it's partially based on personal experience. I can do 10 loads of laundry, most of which isn't mine but if I ask the hubs to do his part in folding his own clothes and put them away after they are done, the number of times they'll sit in the basket in a wad until they are musty and have to be washed again is high. I don't see that as any different than a lot of the "entitlement" issues a lot of men claim "modern women" have.


----------



## EllisRedding

UMP said:


> Problem is women are strange creatures from a different planet.
> As an example, for our 25 year anniversary I wrote my wife a long letter (which I have never done before) explaining my devotion and love for her. She liked the letter, but strangely grew cold afterwards.
> 
> The letter was TOO honest, it was TOO much of opening of my heart. So what did I do?
> I kind of backed off a bit, started losing more weight, doing my own thing. Guess what happened?
> 
> She came back cooing.
> 
> I just LOVE women!!!


Lol

Sounds similar to someone I was talking to. Whenever he does something for his W for her bday (expensive present, take her somewhere, etc...) she complains and says he doesn't need to do anything like that for her.

Her birthday just came up, so he took her advice and just got her flowers/chocolate, of which she proceeded to give him the silent treatment all week. Made her look even worse, he had arranged separately a surprise party for her the following weekend.


----------



## UMP

EllisRedding said:


> Lol
> 
> Sounds like this I was talking to. Whenever he does something for his W for her bday (expensive present, take her somewhere, etc...) she complains and says he doesn't need to do anything like that for her.
> 
> Her birthday just came up, so he took her advice and just got her flowers/chocolate, of which she proceeded to give him the silent treatment all week. Made her look even worse, he had arranged separately a surprise party for her the following weekend.


Exactly!
The worst Christmas gift I ever got my wife was a brand new Mercedes SUV. She liked it and then ignored me for a couple weeks. WTF. Maybe she thought I was expecting some SERIOUS pole dancing afterwards! :grin2:


----------



## EllisRedding

Starstarfish said:


> I was answering this specific case in which people (IE - you) were discussing a husband doing the chores he's been asked to help with forever, and then wanting to know why that didn't seem to more immediately turn the wife's resentment around and want to have sex again.
> 
> You yourself used a male pronouns indicating we were discussing a male being the chore-reluctant partner.
> 
> At no point did I assume or state that failing to do housework is solely a husband's fault. But I stand by my thought that it's far more likely for a husband to use doing chores as a covert contract for sex than a wife to do the same thing.
> 
> Also, it's partially based on personal experience. I can do 10 loads of laundry, most of which isn't mine but if I ask the hubs to do his part in folding his own clothes and put them away after they are done, the number of times they'll sit in the basket in a wad until they are musty and have to be washed again is high. I don't see that as any different than a lot of the "entitlement" issues a lot of men claim "modern women" have.


Never said he was in the wrong, just that he had discussed with his W and that was her reason. Never said he was chore reluctant, could very well be what he felt was necessary for chores was not in line with her. She could be as much in the wrong as him. Maybe he is lazy. Maybe she has unreasonable expectations/demands. Maybe a bit of both. My guess, in many cases both people have some responsibility in the issue, so taking the approach of "You need to do XYZ first" is not helpful and a bit controlling. 

Once again, if she had built up all this resentment, why has she not said anything beforehand? Maybe H thought he was doing everything necessary but she didn't. Using her resentment in this case is in part something she needs to deal with and not turn it into "When I get over my resentment then maybe we can move forward with things). Once again, going solely with the example that this is not a topic that has been discussed frequently and just fallen on deaf ears. 

I understand your post does come in part on your experience. My post does come in part with mine where my W and I had a different POV on what needed to be done


----------



## Married but Happy

UMP said:


> Exactly!
> The worst Christmas gift I ever got my wife was a brand new Mercedes SUV. She liked it and then ignored me for a couple weeks. WTF. Maybe she thought I was expecting some SERIOUS pole dancing afterwards! :grin2:


The saying is, "No good deed goes unpunished." So you may as well be bad!


----------



## UMP

Married but Happy said:


> The saying is, "No good deed goes unpunished." So you may as well be bad!


The thing is I really like the challenge. In the past, it made me crazy. Now, since I have figured her out more, I enjoy the game.
If my wife had the inner essence of a man, maybe I would be bored out of my mind.

I still LOVE women!

As Sam Kinison used to say, "what are you gunna do, give sheep the vote?"


----------



## Good Guy

NobodySpecial said:


> For me, the idea that he is doing that which is really also his responsibility just to get sex makes him a child in my mind. It is not a matter of partnership. Of managing the details of life. It is doing a chore to get allowance.
> 
> One thing that my husband did was establish his expectation of having a good sex life as SEPARATE from the expectation of managing life. One thing that I did was establish firm boundaries and lifted the veil of clueless from his eyes about what it takes to run a household and raise kids. If he had simply done chores in an expectation of receiving sex, that would have been a killer turn off.


Who decides whose responsible for what housework? If it's you, then you are treating him like a child, so don't be surprised if he acts like one.


----------



## turnera

EleGirl said:


> The simple answer is that often when this happens it's because her emotional needs are not being met. For a long time, slowly love busters, lack of non-sexual intimacy, and other such things slowly erode her bond and her love.
> 
> Get the books "Love Buster" and "His Needs, Her Needs" ... read them in that order.
> 
> I've got some questions that could help us help you.
> 
> How long have the two of you been married? How old are you two? Do you have children? if so how old?
> 
> How many hours a week do you and your wife spend doing date-like things, just the two of you?


Exactly. Women don't want sex unless the man is (1) meeting her needs and (2) NOT Love Busting her. If she has ENs you've ignored, she resents you for putting yourself first. If you're continuing to do something that hurts her - even if you don't know what it is - every single time you do it, she wants your touch less and less.

It's emotional for most women. You BECOME attractive by being the man to do 1 and 2 above. And the other factor is whether you are a Nice Guy. If you haven't already read No More Mr Nice Guy, read it immediately. Women subconsciously REQUIRE mentally strong and confident men. Goes back to caveman days when we literally needed that and chose partners who fed us and kept us from being killed. It's in our DNA. 

Those three factors are what's keeping her from touching you or wanting your touch. 

And btw, the three factors above are the most common reasons women start affairs with other men who DO meet their needs, DON'T Love Bust them, and SHOW strength by going after what they want, sick as it sounds. But it reaches the woman's subconscious level for what she's been wanting from YOU.


----------



## nirvana

I agree with what Turnera says.

Let us flip it around. However, most people talk about what a woman needs. What about what a man needs? Men need their wives to desire them and to keep behaving like they did when they were dating. Have reasonable sex without the excuses. When a woman gives constant excuses of being busy with work, housework, kids etc etc to deny sex or begin to use it as a lever, then men begin to tire of all the games and go looking elsewhere. If women have ENs, men have SNs. Marriage has prevented us from morally going and screwing any woman who walks around (who is willing) us.

I think it ultimately comes down to who wants sex MORE. I think it is men. Women want sex too, but they can easily control their urges. This power allows them to use sex as a negotiating tool. I am sure many men can vouch for this and tell us a time when their wives have said something like "you do this and maybe it will make me want to have sex with you". To that my reply (in my mind) is "F it". I will never allow myself to be treated like that where I am a dog and a bone is waved near my nose just out of reach. 

I think both sexes need to understand each other. If one wants to control the other, then that is bad.


----------



## 2ntnuf

From an early age, women realize how much power they have over men with their bodies. Young men sometimes can't speak properly around a woman they find attractive. They look away because they are embarrassed. They do all they can to please her so she will think of him in a way other than just another human being. It may work when women are young and naïve, but it doesn't after they learn they have the power to choose their partner, unless he is so attractive to her that she almost can't help herself. That happens about as often as it does for men with women. 

If you meet all of her emotional needs, she will get bored. If you meet all of her physical needs, she will have a tough time letting go of you. If you do all of that, how much time do you have to meet your own needs? Just by all the threads on needs, I am getting a skewed outlook of women. They just seem so needy. It's pretty much a turn off. I can't be their daddy. I don't want, nor am I capable of it. 

Life will never be perfect. Neither will I.


----------



## norajane

nirvana said:


> I agree with what Turnera says.
> 
> Let us flip it around. However, most people talk about what a woman needs. What about what a man needs? Men need their wives to desire them and to keep behaving like they did when they were dating. Have reasonable sex without the excuses. When a woman gives constant excuses of being busy with work, housework, kids etc etc to deny sex or begin to use it as a lever, then men begin to tire of all the games and go looking elsewhere. If women have ENs, men have SNs. Marriage has prevented us from morally going and screwing any woman who walks around (who is willing) us.
> 
> I think it ultimately comes down to who wants sex MORE. I think it is men. Women want sex too, but they can easily control their urges. This power allows them to use sex as a negotiating tool. I am sure many men can vouch for this and tell us a time when their wives have said something like "you do this and maybe it will make me want to have sex with you". To that my reply (in my mind) is "F it". I will never allow myself to be treated like that where I am a dog and a bone is waved near my nose just out of reach.
> 
> I think both sexes need to understand each other. If one wants to control the other, then that is bad.


It seems you are refusing to accept hat women LOSE ATTRACTION to men when they feel their husbands are not pulling their weight around the house and with their kids. THAT makes them see their H in a "don't touch me" way. 

You keep calling it excuses, and keep saying she's using sex as a negotiating tool. You are dismissing the fact that a woman who has a child for a husband (the guy who isn't pulling his weight at home) isn't going to want to have sex. You are totally missing the boat by being so convinced she's deliberately using sex that way, and are missing that she no longer thinks hubby is awesome, she is now full of years of resentment, and she doesn't want him to touch her because she is so sick and tired of being the house slave.

Women aren't "controlling their urges" in order to manipulate him. They are LOSING their urges because they can't be attracted to someone who doesn't share fairly in the household duties.


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## nirvana

norajane said:


> It seems you are refusing to accept hat women LOSE ATTRACTION to men when they feel their husbands are not pulling their weight around the house and with their kids. THAT makes them see their H in a "don't touch me" way.
> 
> You keep calling it excuses, and keep saying she's using sex as a negotiating tool. You are dismissing the fact that a woman who has a child for a husband (the guy who isn't pulling his weight at home) isn't going to want to have sex. You are totally missing the boat by being so convinced she's deliberately using sex that way, and are missing that she no longer thinks hubby is awesome,, is now full of years of resentment, and doesn't want him to touch her because she is so sick and tired of being the house slave.


No, I accept that. I think H and W both need to share the house work equally. But women need to keep in mind that work outside the house is also work. Like mowing the lawn. Fixing the fence. Managing investments. Paying bills. Oil change. Filling up gas. Women tend to discount that and only count cooking, cleaning and laundry. That is a big cause for conflict.

I agree that resentment about this can cause a "don't touch me" attitude. But women need to open their eyes to what men do for the household. Not just if they do what the W wants them to do. My wife frequently complains that I don't do what she wants me to do. The thing is I am not her paid servant. I do what I need to do as the man of the house. If it matches her task list, then good. If not, it still needs to get done. For example, I am now fixing the fence which is broken for months while she wants me to spend time on the curtains which I think can wait.

All things considered, I do a lot for the household outside of earning money. My high school has a Whatsapp group and many ex-classmates are amazed and complain that their husbands don't do things I say I do (I never lie). So I believe that everyone somehow gets to a mindset that her husband is awful and the neighbors husband is awesome. What if we said the same - that the neighbor wife was hot and our own wife not so much? 

By now, most men are sick and tired of jumping through hoops for reasonable sex with their wives. Hence they look outside as life is short. I cannot blame them.


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## norajane

nirvana, you advocate cheating as a solution, and that in an of itself speaks volumes. Cheating never solves a thing; it only makes things worse for everyone, including the kids. 

Divorce is an option for anyone that is unhappy and can't resolve things with their spouse. It's the ONLY option where you can retain any self-respect, and the respect of your children.


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## 2ntnuf

Never wanted my 1st wife to have a child for me. If she didn't want two, and demand that I provide the sperm, we wouldn't have, unless she used someone else's sperm... Many women on TAM don't seem to think it's a big deal who the father is, only that he loves the child. 

I guess my point is, it's women who seem to have a natural urge to reproduce which drives them. Men get there, or seem to get there through the love they feel for their wives. I've actually heard a few men say they want a daughter just like their wife.


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## turnera

nirvana said:


> I agree with what Turnera says.
> 
> Let us flip it around. However, most people talk about what a woman needs. What about what a man needs? Men need their wives to desire them and to keep behaving like they did when they were dating. Have reasonable sex without the excuses.


But the women don't have the strong biological and physical urge to screw like men do. They don't get hard-ons. They don't feel the rutting urge. In most cases. So sex to women is about connecting with the person who makes them light up emotionally, who takes their breath away. And most are simply ignorant about just how important sex is to men - just as important as safety, security, honesty and communication is to women. But nobody teaches us that. And 95% of people never come to forums like this or take classes in relationships; they just live out their lives. Most people never come to forums until they're in crisis mode. 

The big issue, IMO, is that most people are ignorant about PEA chemicals, how it makes you feel 'high' to be in love, how you go into a marriage thinking you're going to KEEP that high and thus still always want to have sex. But that 'high' is typically gone by the fifth year of a relationship. Remember that in caveman days, you were old if you lived to be 20. NObody had 30 or 50 year relationships. The chemicals are what kept the species screwing.

But today, once the high is gone, then you're left with reality, baggage, poor communication, being in a rut, and taking each other for granted. Except, of course, the man's still biologically wanting to rut. But women need that 'high' to want to do it typically and once that's gone, you being the male and WANTING and NEEDING the sex, well, sorry, but it's on you to keep your spouse interested in you and feeling that high. Because sex is not just like taking the trash out, something that has to be done (unless you're an idiot like me). Sex is intimate to women, NOT just physical, and if the man isn't meeting those typical women's needs, if a man is being a jerk or a whiny child because he's not getting sex, if a man's doing covert contracts to GET sex, well, he will be the LAST person she'll want to be intimate and naked with.

Does it suck to have to care more about what drives the woman than the man? Maybe. But remember that women are the nurturers, and the man is likely getting A LOT of needs met by her that he doesn't even realize, so if he only focuses on "not getting sex" instead of what makes their relationship great, SHE KNOWS, and again, he is an instant turnoff.

In the end, there's a reason we keep asking men 'how often do you and your wife go out and spend one on one time?' Because this is THE direct path to keeping that PEA chemical high going so that she sexually desires you. I'm not talking about expensive dates. I'm talking about interest, conversation, playing a sport together, bonding, NOT taking her for granted, wanting to go on walks with her just because it makes her happy. If you've addressed those other three factors, then quality time (Harley says it needs to be 10 to 15 hours a week) is what is going to get you sex. 

And honestly, is that so much to ask for the woman you promised to cherish?


----------



## 2ntnuf

I loathe the word cherish. No one can sustain that ideal. It's gone at that five year mark with the chemicals. 


But more importantly, I've never thought of you as an "idiot". I hope you will reconsider those feelings.


----------



## anonmd

I think that was a double sided vow, you know, the love-honor-cherish thing.


----------



## tech-novelist

nirvana said:


> I think it ultimately comes down to who wants sex MORE. I think it is men.


Really? Now you tell us! :surprise:

Seriously, any woman who doubts this should get her free testosterone supplemented to that of a typical 30 year old man, then get back to us.


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## tech-novelist

turnera said:


> But the women don't have the strong biological and physical urge to screw like men do. They don't get hard-ons. They don't feel the rutting urge. In most cases.


Exactly. This is why women have power over men; men are sex addicts, and women are the pushers.

In most cases, of course.


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## EleGirl

Of course, again we ignore the fact that just as many men end up making their marriage sexless, or near sexless, as women do.

There are plenty of women out there who want sex as much as their husbands do.

There are also plenty who want sex but are married to men who don't want sex. In those marriages, it is the men who have power over their wives this way.


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## 2ntnuf

EleGirl said:


> Of course, again we ignore the fact that just as many men end up making their marriage sexless, or near sexless, as women do.
> 
> There are plenty of women out there who want sex as much as their husbands do.
> 
> There are also plenty who want sex but are married to men who don't want sex. In those marriages, *it is the men who have power over their wives this way.*


:surprise:

It's no wonder so many women leave or find another man. She can't be expected to lose control. 

:laugh: 0


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## EleGirl

2ntnuf said:


> :surprise:
> 
> It's no wonder so many women leave or find another man. She can't be expected to lose control.
> 
> :laugh: 0


:slap:


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## 2ntnuf

EleGirl said:


> :slap:












:wink2:


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## EleGirl

2ntnuf said:


> :wink2:


>


----------



## nirvana

norajane said:


> nirvana, you advocate cheating as a solution, and that in an of itself speaks volumes. Cheating never solves a thing; it only makes things worse for everyone, including the kids.
> 
> Divorce is an option for anyone that is unhappy and can't resolve things with their spouse. It's the ONLY option where you can retain any self-respect, and the respect of your children.


If the wife cheats the husband by withholding sex and using it as a bait, she deserves to be cheated on by the husband by sleeping with someone else.

Outside of that, I don't condone cheating.


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## staarz21

nirvana said:


> If the wife cheats the husband by withholding sex and using it as a bait, she deserves to be cheated on by the husband by sleeping with someone else.
> 
> Outside of that, I don't condone cheating.


And do the kids deserve to have two crappy parents? No. If a W is cheating her H out of sex...the H should leave so he doesn't look like a cheating d-bag to his kids. Set better examples people.


----------



## EleGirl

nirvana said:


> If the wife cheats the husband by withholding sex and using it as a bait, she deserves to be cheated on by the husband by sleeping with someone else.
> 
> Outside of that, I don't condone cheating.


What about if she is not withholding sex as bait? What if she does not want sex with him because he is not holding up his part of the relationship? And because of that, she has lost her desire for sex with him?

Do you still condone him cheating?


----------



## Married but Happy

staarz21 said:


> And do the kids deserve to have two crappy parents? No. If a W is cheating her H out of sex...the H should leave so he doesn't look like a cheating d-bag to his kids. Set better examples people.


Are you saying it's okay if they don't have kids? 0

In either case, she may "deserve" it, but I would not recommend or condone it. There are almost always better ways to handle things, such as divorce.


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## vel

nirvana said:


> If the wife cheats the husband by withholding sex and using it as a bait, she deserves to be cheated on by the husband by sleeping with someone else.
> 
> Outside of that, I don't condone cheating.


Huh, so if someone cheats then the right reaction is to cheat right back? Either work it out, reconcile, or give up and split up with some dignity. Anything else is childish.


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## staarz21

Married but Happy said:


> Are you saying it's okay if they don't have kids? 0
> 
> In either case, she may "deserve" it, but I would not recommend or condone it. There are almost always better ways to handle things, such as divorce.


Wellll...... >


No lol I don't. There would obviously be less destruction put on other people by those actions, but it doesn't take away the hurt caused. So, it's a "Well, if susie jumps off a cliff are you going to as well?" type situation. Don't do it because someone else is doing it. It doesn't make it right.


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## nirvana

EleGirl said:


> What about if she is not withholding sex as bait? What if she does not want sex with him because he is not holding up his part of the relationship? And because of that, she has lost her desire for sex with him?
> 
> Do you still condone him cheating?


This is more complex. Can you give an example of what the H does not do? If he is not holding up his part and if he beats or insults her, then she is justified in not wanting to have sex with her. In that case, he is just plain wrong.


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## nirvana

vel said:


> Huh, so if someone cheats then the right reaction is to cheat right back? Either work it out, reconcile, or give up and split up with some dignity. Anything else is childish.


Sure, why not.
That is the only way some people get the message. No amount of begging and cajoling and loving and cuddling and hugging works with some people. They need to be shown that they are not indispensable. "Split up" is very easy to say when the wife makes a money grab. Why should he lose money? Why should he lose child access rights? 

So yes.

PS: I have not cheated and do not intend to. For now.


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## nirvana

Married but Happy said:


> Are you saying it's okay if they don't have kids? 0
> 
> In either case, she may "deserve" it, but I would not recommend or condone it. There are almost always better ways to handle things, such as divorce.



Divorce is almost always bad for the man. The woman gets a load of sympathy, money and kids. Man gets nothing.

So he has to be smart about it and do what he wants without losing what he has.

If you have a better way that helps the man, let us know.


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## 2ntnuf

nirvana said:


> Divorce is almost always bad for the man. The woman gets a load of sympathy, money and kids. Man gets nothing.
> 
> So he has to be smart about it and do what he wants without losing what he has.
> 
> If you have a better way that helps the man, let us know.


Don't marry.

Don't have children.

Learn what specific women want and if you can provide that before having sex with them.

Be happy in your own skin, doing what you please while you are not under the responsibilities of a marriage or committed relationship.

Some ideas for you. 

We can live without the deep connection of sex and a socalled loving spouse. Life is easier when there are less responsibilities and therefore less consequences. 

We can get love elsewhere. It will take time to learn what that looks like, but it feels good too. And, there is little cost to the receiver. 

yeah, it ain't sex and that, but it's good.


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## Married but Happy

nirvana said:


> Divorce is almost always bad for the man. The woman gets a load of sympathy, money and kids. Man gets nothing.
> 
> So he has to be smart about it and do what he wants without losing what he has.
> 
> If you have a better way that helps the man, let us know.


I wish I did. Cheating may still lead to divorce, in which case he's no better off. The only practical thing if divorce is the best option is to plan well ahead (mostly needed in a longer-term marriage with large income disparity), and relocate the family to a state where the laws are fairer (e.g., Texas is much better about alimony, I hear), establish residency, and then file.


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## EleGirl

nirvana said:


> This is more complex. Can you give an example of what the H does not do? If he is not holding up his part and if he beats or insults her, then she is justified in not wanting to have sex with her. In that case, he is just plain wrong.


What about if he does not beat or insult her. But instead: Both work basically the same hours. He does maybe 10% of home upkeep (housework, yard work) and child care. Spends most of his free with either with his friends or doing things that do not include his wife. She asks him to spend time with her, he just won’t.. to the point of agreeing to activities but always backing out at the last minute. The time that they spend together is mostly eating dinner that she cooks and a tv show or two during the week. Maybe they spend holidays together, go to his parent’s house for xmas type thing.


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## Married but Happy

EleGirl said:


> What about if he does not beat or insult her. But instead: Both work basically the same hours. He does maybe 10% of home upkeep (housework, yard work) and child care. Spends most of his free with either with his friends or doing things that do not include his wife. She asks him to spend time with her, he just won’t.. to the point of agreeing to activities but always backing out at the last minute. The time that they spend together is mostly eating dinner that she cooks and a tv show or two during the week. Maybe they spend holidays together, go to his parent’s house for xmas type thing.


Then he's not a full and equal participant in the marriage. That may be true for many men/marriages, but many men ARE full participants, especially these days. I prefer to look at situations where the lack of sexual interest occurs in an otherwise balanced and healthy relationship. If it isn't healthy - or is even pathological or toxic - there isn't going to be any insight into normal marriages. It's easy to point fingers when things aren't healthy, and IMO seldom productive to finding solutions for everyone else.


----------



## EleGirl

Married but Happy said:


> Then he's not a full and equal participant in the marriage. That may be true for many men/marriages, but many men ARE full participants, especially these days. I prefer to look at situations where the lack of sexual interest occurs in an otherwise balanced and healthy relationship. If it isn't healthy - or is even pathological or toxic - there isn't going to be any insight into normal marriages. It's easy to point fingers when things aren't healthy, and IMO seldom productive to finding solutions for everyone else.


I agree that if both spouses are holding up everything else (or most) in the marriage, then either withholding sex is wrong. The withholder needs to work on what is THEIR problem about sex and fix it.

The problem that I see here on TAM is that most of the time we only have one spouse posting. Since we are not getting both sides of the story, we have no idea if we are being told the 'whole story'.


----------



## Married but Happy

EleGirl said:


> I agree that if both spouses are holding up everything else (or most) in the marriage, then either withholding sex is wrong. The withholder needs to work on what is THEIR problem about sex and fix it.
> 
> The problem that I see here on TAM is that most of the time we only have one spouse posting. Since we are not getting both sides of the story, we have no idea if we are being told the 'whole story'.


It is a real problem that we only have one side of the issue presented. We can surmise and speculate all we want, and sometimes may hit the mark, I suppose. Mostly, I prefer to take what's presented at face value and respond to that - at least until there's more to go on. If the OP presents things accurately - and I'm gong to assume that until I learn otherwise - then the speculation won't be helpful. Asking questions of the OP is helpful, if answered.


----------



## nirvana

EleGirl said:


> What about if he does not beat or insult her. But instead: Both work basically the same hours. He does maybe 10% of home upkeep (housework, yard work) and child care. Spends most of his free with either with his friends or doing things that do not include his wife. She asks him to spend time with her, he just won’t.. to the point of agreeing to activities but always backing out at the last minute. The time that they spend together is mostly eating dinner that she cooks and a tv show or two during the week. Maybe they spend holidays together, go to his parent’s house for xmas type thing.


He sounds like a bum. In that case she needs to kick his lazy ass out. 

I would take her side on this specific example.


----------



## turnera

nirvana said:


> Divorce is almost always bad for the man. The woman gets a load of sympathy, money and kids. Man gets nothing.


No offense, but what a crock. My dad was an engineer at NASA. Yes, my mom got the house and the kids. And $100/month from him. That he complained about every time he saw me. The house my mom got fell apart because she didn't have enough money to keep it up and he couldn't be bothered. When the air conditioner upstairs leaked and fell through the ceiling into the first floor, it sat there for six months while my mom tried to save up enough money to fix it, while my dad dropped by to pick me up and never said a word about it. And when he did pick me up, he'd take me to the mall and spend 50 cents on me for a coke and we'd sit and watch people walk around; it was the cheapest he could get away with. Or else he'd take me to his current girlfriend's place so I could babysit her kids while they went in the bedroom.

And none of the friends stayed friends with my mom because she wasn't aerospace community like he was. 

So let's not go glamorizing how women fare in divorces, ok? It's not a given. Especially not nowadays when most women work and judges expect them to continue to work.


----------



## nirvana

EleGirl said:


> By the way, it's just as common for men to get to the point where they do not want sex with their wife.



It happens I am sure, but I don't think it is as common. As common would mean that if there are 100 sexless marriages, 50 are because the husband does not want it and 50 are because of the wife.

I think it is more like 10 because husband does not want it and 90 because the wife.


----------



## nirvana

turnera said:


> No offense, but what a crock. My dad was an engineer at NASA. Yes, my mom got the house and the kids. And $100/month from him. That he complained about every time he saw me. The house my mom got fell apart because she didn't have enough money to keep it up and he couldn't be bothered. When the air conditioner upstairs leaked and fell through the ceiling into the first floor, it sat there for six months while my mom tried to save up enough money to fix it, while my dad dropped by to pick me up and never said a word about it. And when he did pick me up, he'd take me to the mall and spend 50 cents on me for a coke and we'd sit and watch people walk around; it was the cheapest he could get away with. Or else he'd take me to his current girlfriend's place so I could babysit her kids while they went in the bedroom.
> 
> And none of the friends stayed friends with my mom because she wasn't aerospace community like he was.
> 
> So let's not go glamorizing how women fare in divorces, ok? It's not a given. Especially not nowadays when most women work and judges expect them to continue to work.


In your example, it does look like your mother got the better part of the deal. Not your father.


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## turnera

In what way? She basically went bankrupt, he got rid of the kids who were an obstacle, and all it cost him was $1200/year out of his $30,000 salary. Mom and I didn't eat meat for 8 years; he took all his girlfriends out to steak houses. She became an alcoholic because everyone banned her and she moved away the month I graduated high school. When I turned 16 and got my drivers license, he told me now that I could drive, I knew where he lived if I wanted to see him. So he got rid of that baggage, too.


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## john117

What was the value and equity in the house? 

Today you would be hard pressed to find$100/Mo child support...


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## MrsHolland

nirvana said:


> Divorce is almost always bad for the man. The woman gets a load of sympathy, money and kids. Man gets nothing.
> 
> So he has to be smart about it and do what he wants without losing what he has.
> 
> If you have a better way that helps the man, let us know.


Divorce is bad for EVERYONE involved not just the man. Everyone is impacted, wife, husband and CHILDREN.

Both men and women get sympathy.

In a standard situation men and women get a 50/50 split of marital assets as it should be. The marital assets are not wholly owned by the man simply by virtue of being males.

Both men and women are set back greatly by divorce, the average figure is that it takes both men and women around 10 years to financially recover from divorce.

In Aust, the biggest group of housing poor are divorced single mothers.

Co parenting is pretty common with 50/50 split. Where this differs:
If one parent has a career that makes this harder to achieve. 
if children are very young ie breastfeeding.
If one parent chooses not to have the kids as often (often the case with men that have left for another woman).

Child support is based on a fair formula that takes all income and costs into account.

People that choose to cheat because they are too weak to end a marriage respectfully and are fixated on their perceived losses are pathetic IMHO.


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## Maricha75

nirvana said:


> In your example, it does look like your mother got the better part of the deal. Not your father.


Seriously? In what way? $100 a month in support? A broken down house she couldn't repair? Read her post, again, nirvana. 

And you make it sound like women are living the good life on child support. My sister's ex-husband was court ordered to pay roughly $100 per month in child support for their daughter. He is still behind because he chose to work under the table. He decided not to do any kind of visitation until this summer. He hadn't seen his daughter in 4 years, then decided he wanted her to come to his place for a couple weeks. Some would say, "Hell no!", but it doesn't work that way in Michigan. Whether he pays the child support or not, he still has the legal right to see his daughter, and to reasonable visitation. I had to explain to my sister, as well as some of her moronic friends, that Michigan is NOT a "pay to see" state, and two weeks out of the summer is very reasonable. If she said no, he could fight her on it, and get even more time, if he wanted. 

My ex-brother-in-law is getting married next year. The plan is that my niece will go to his state so she can be in the wedding. I think it's great, actually, that he is stepping up, finally. Unfortunately, I think the only reason is because of his fiancée. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great she is getting him to step up. But I don't think it's right that he didn't choose to do so without her instigation.

Now, keep in mind, the lack of visitation was HIS choice, not my sister's. Had my sister been the one keeping him from their daughter, I would have b*tched her out over it. I see how my sister lives. She works. Her husband works. And they are barely staying afloat. Then I see how her ex lives. And you're crazy if you think her ex got the short end of the stick. His lack of involvement has been on HIM.

I'm sorry, but I just cannot muster any sympathy for someone who uses his child as a babysitter, rather than spend time with her. I don't have sympathy for anyone who shows no concern over the living conditions of his child. And you think @turnera father got the short end of the stick? Wow.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Maricha75

john117 said:


> What was the value and equity in the house?
> 
> *Today you would be hard pressed to find$100/Mo child support...*


Nope! Around here, that amount, sadly, is the norm. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## turnera

john117 said:


> What was the value and equity in the house?
> 
> Today you would be hard pressed to find$100/Mo child support...


They paid $18,000 for the house in 1966. She sold it in 1976 for $18,000 the month I graduated. The house was later demolished, as it was too damaged to retain. The $100 was for two kids, starting in 1970, and cut in half in 1972 when my brother turned 18. So $50/month from 1970 to 1976.


----------



## MrsHolland

john117 said:


> What was the value and equity in the house?
> 
> *Today you would be hard pressed to find$100/Mo child support...*


Would be great if that were true, sadly it isn't.

I could site a dozen cases of people I know personally that rec. that or less, anything from men that earn large incomes to those that earn lower incomes, 1 child up to 8 (the woman that has 8 kids is supposed to rec. less than $100 p/mth and her ex still refuses to pay it).

The guy that is a dentist and the pre divorce resigned from a 6 figure income and started a new practice with the woman he cheated with, he shows close to zero earnings on paper so avoided child support.

My ex BIL that is a teacher and went down to 2 days a week in order to pay as little CS as possible and even then did not pay it. All the while my sister paid for everything for the kids, education, clothing, medical etc.

The guy across the road that ran off with one of our neighbours and quit work to stay at home with their new baby (his new partner is a Lawyer and earns great money), leaving his ex with 4 kids and no child support.

on and on and on. Non paying of CS is rife here and the vast majority of them are men that refuse to pay for the care of their children.


----------



## turnera

There was a guy on another forum who kicked her AND their kids out once she griped about his cheating. She ended up having to go to a womens' shelter with the kids because she'd been a SAHM with NO work experience. Once the shelter helped her get a house to live in, and helped her get funding for community college just to earn a living, he then proceeded to haunt and taunt her at her new home, so much that the neighbors had to come out and force him to get back in his car and leave the street. All the while, calling her a ***** and a sl*t and a worthless mother. He never did pay her anything until she finally scraped together the money for a cheap lawyer who got her a couple hundred dollars a month.


----------



## tech-novelist

EleGirl said:


> By the way, it's just as common for men to get to the point where they do not want sex with their wife.


Even if that is true, it should be on another thread. The title makes it clear what the OP is wondering about, and that's not it.


----------



## EleGirl

Married but Happy said:


> It is a real problem that we only have one side of the issue presented. We can surmise and speculate all we want, and sometimes may hit the mark, I suppose. Mostly, I prefer to take what's presented at face value and respond to that - at least until there's more to go on. If the OP presents things accurately - and I'm gong to assume that until I learn otherwise - then the speculation won't be helpful. Asking questions of the OP is helpful, if answered.


I prefer to take the stance that the other spouse is not here to tell the rest of the story. And then give the poster tools so that either they can get the other spouse involved in working it out or get into counseling with both spouses involved.

It's far too often that people who complain about their spouse don't even concider the other person's side of the story. I think that often times the most important thing that they can learn from a marriage that is not doing well is that their spouse's side of the story is usually just as important as their own.


----------



## john117

Australia child support is not quite the same as the witch's brew of laws in the USA...

I doubt the Aussie examples provided would go far in the USA. But we aren't always child support or alimony paradise either.


----------



## EleGirl

nirvana said:


> It happens I am sure, but I don't think it is as common. As common would mean that if there are 100 sexless marriages, 50 are because the husband does not want it and 50 are because of the wife.
> 
> I think it is more like 10 because husband does not want it and 90 because the wife.


The studies that have been done on men who withhold sex vs women have found that men are as likely as women to withhold sex and make their marriage sexless.

This is not an issue that is only an issue for men who are left with sexless marriages. I think it's important for people to realize this.


----------



## EleGirl

tech-novelist said:


> Even if that is true, it should be on another thread. The title makes it clear what the OP is wondering about, and that's not it.


The reason I brought it up on this thread is that the point of this thread is that most or all "Married Women Eventually Become Repulsed By Their Husbands Touch". It's an ugly charge that is the point of a lot of jokes thrown at women.. that we are frigid, cold, etc. once we marry. The stereotype is tiring to deal with. So I want to put some reality on the situation.


----------



## john117

There's often some truth in most stereotypes...


----------



## turnera

You're right! Most men DO expect women to do all the housework and childrearing while they only spend time with the kids when it's play time! And then expect the women to be raring to go in the sack that night. Thank you for pointing that out!


----------



## tech-novelist

EleGirl said:


> The studies that have been done on men who withhold sex vs women have found that men are as likely as women to withhold sex and make their marriage sexless.
> 
> This is not an issue that is only an issue for men who are left with sexless marriages. I think it's important for people to realize this.


Would you happen to have a link to some of those studies? This certainly doesn't align with the cases I'm aware of, but I realize that those cases may not be representative.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Maricha75 said:


> Seriously? In what way? $100 a month in support? A broken down house she couldn't repair? Read her post, again, nirvana.
> 
> And you make it sound like women are living the good life on child support. My sister's ex-husband was court ordered to pay roughly $100 per month in child support for their daughter. He is still behind because he chose to work under the table. He decided not to do any kind of visitation until this summer. He hadn't seen his daughter in 4 years, then decided he wanted her to come to his place for a couple weeks. Some would say, "Hell no!", but it doesn't work that way in Michigan. Whether he pays the child support or not, he still has the legal right to see his daughter, and to reasonable visitation. I had to explain to my sister, as well as some of her moronic friends, that Michigan is NOT a "pay to see" state, and two weeks out of the summer is very reasonable. If she said no, he could fight her on it, and get even more time, if he wanted.
> 
> My ex-brother-in-law is getting married next year. The plan is that my niece will go to his state so she can be in the wedding. I think it's great, actually, that he is stepping up, finally. Unfortunately, I think the only reason is because of his fiancée. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great she is getting him to step up. But I don't think it's right that he didn't choose to do so without her instigation.
> 
> Now, keep in mind, the lack of visitation was HIS choice, not my sister's. Had my sister been the one keeping him from their daughter, I would have b*tched her out over it. I see how my sister lives. She works. Her husband works. And they are barely staying afloat. Then I see how her ex lives. And you're crazy if you think her ex got the short end of the stick. His lack of involvement has been on HIM.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I just cannot muster any sympathy for someone who uses his child as a babysitter, rather than spend time with her. I don't have sympathy for anyone who shows no concern over the living conditions of his child. And you think @turnera father got the short end of the stick? Wow.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk



Reminds me of my own divorce.

She got all the household goods and the car, and demanded full custody.

It might really strange to some folks - but my salary.... I actually worked at jobs that require customers to pay me of their own volition, if they're not happy then I get $0.00 income. My total entitlement for life and living was $0.00.
You want to walk away and support your own household and have a child in that house...that's your choice. I wish you well in finding customers to pay you.

If you want a section of what my life is cut into chunks and sold off to customers then you have to pony up some services yourself. IF I could find any customers who will willingly of their own choice pay me for not doing anything for them, then I would be spending more time doing family stuff and interacting (even taking custody) with our children.

Because you looking after your child, when you've chosen to be unsupportive or to leave, is no service _to_me_. If I walk off my job, my income stops and goes to $0.00, and my boss/workmates probably won't want me hanging around expecting handouts.

When my wife left, as I said, she got everything, and I got the family debt of $7,000 (and half interest in the house).
15 years later, I'd turned the business around, had turnover of >$1M.... and my ex-wife had had several boyfriends, one of whom gave her free room and board and had two kids by her. She kept going to university, and was complaining that "I had got away with so much" because she now had $25,000 in various debt, and I had $10,000 in invested funds (not counting retirement) and no debt outside the business. My child support was 27% of gross earnings over $17,000 and my second biggest bill after tax (stepped which works out about 25% of gross).
She just couldn't get her head around that she had to live within her means without exception and that she REALLY isn't entitled to anything. It was what generated our marriage debt, and killed the first business. And most importantly it's why men often do better after divorce (we learn to live on much less, and don't have to suport our ex's lifestyle) - you want your own household...and you want it alone and only with your child...that _costs_ a _lot_ of money.


----------



## Maricha75

john117 said:


> Australia child support is not quite the same as the witch's brew of laws in the USA...
> 
> I doubt the Aussie examples provided would go far in the USA. But we aren't always child support or alimony paradise either.


Actually, her examples aren't far from things I have seen my own friends struggle with, here, in the USA. It isn't as far-fetched as you seem to believe. Sure, the parent who owes a bunch of back child support can be jailed... IF they can be found. And IF they live in a state that will extradite. If not, the custodial parent and the children are SOL. But, yes, the same scenarios that Holland described DO happen here, too. And it isn't just men who take lower paying jobs to keep support down. I know one woman who did the same thing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Maricha75

spotthedeaddog said:


> Reminds me of my own divorce.
> 
> She got all the household goods and the car, and demanded full custody.
> 
> It might really strange to some folks - but my salary.... I actually worked at jobs that require customers to pay me of their own volition, if they're not happy then I get $0.00 income. My total entitlement for life and living was $0.00.
> You want to walk away and support your own household and have a child in that house...that's your choice. I wish you well in finding customers to pay you.
> 
> If you want a section of what my life is cut into chunks and sold off to customers then you have to pony up some services yourself. IF I could find any customers who will willingly of their own choice pay me for not doing anything for them, then I would be spending more time doing family stuff and interacting (even taking custody) with our children.
> 
> Because you looking after your child, when you've chosen to be unsupportive or to leave, is no service _to_me_. If I walk off my job, my income stops and goes to $0.00, and my boss/workmates probably won't want me hanging around expecting handouts.
> 
> When my wife left, as I said, she got everything, and I got the family debt of $7,000 (and half interest in the house).
> 15 years later, I'd turned the business around, had turnover of >$1M.... and my ex-wife had had several boyfriends, one of whom gave her free room and board and had two kids by her. She kept going to university, and was complaining that "I had got away with so much" because she now had $25,000 in various debt, and I had $10,000 in invested funds (not counting retirement) and no debt outside the business. My child support was 27% of gross earnings over $17,000 and my second biggest bill after tax (stepped which works out about 25% of gross).
> She just couldn't get her head around that she had to live within her means without exception and that she REALLY isn't entitled to anything. It was what generated our marriage debt, and killed the first business. And most importantly it's why men often do better after divorce (we learn to live on much less, and don't have to suport our ex's lifestyle) - you want your own household...and you want it alone and only with your child...that _costs_ a _lot_ of money.


Actually, what you described is nothing like my sister's circumstances... sorry. He cheated, got a girl pregnant, moved out of state. She filed for divorce, was awarded sole custody of their daughter, with reasonable visitation time for him. He left. He chose not to be in their daughter's life for 4 years. He chose to do work that would not be tracked so he could avoid child support. My sister rents a home with her husband, our dad, her daughter, and an elderly family friend. No, your divorce is NOTHING like my sister's.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## john117

turnera said:


> You're right! Most men DO expect women to do all the housework and childrearing while they only spend time with the kids when it's play time! And then expect the women to be raring to go in the sack that night. Thank you for pointing that out!


No disagreement. Yet how well does it work if the man does all the Nice things?

Can't have it both ways.


----------



## turnera

john117 said:


> No disagreement. Yet how well does it work if the man does all the Nice things?
> 
> Can't have it both ways.


Well, that depends on if the guy is just a decent guy with REAL self esteem who won't tolerate disrespect, or if he's a Nice Guy weakling who does it just to get sex, doesn't it?


----------



## MapMan

Because what a woman thinks she wants in a husband is not what her body wants. Read this:

https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/26/the-ballad-of-clark-kent/

_When Lois Lane met Superman he was fighting crime, could bend steel in his bare hands, stop locomotives, leap over tall buildings in a single bound; ****, Superman could fly! Then one day he met Lois and swept her away, rocked her world in the sack and fell in love with her because thats what Super-Men do. After a year of this whirlwind Lois starts to feel her relationship with Superman was lacking something..._


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Maricha75 said:


> Actually, what you described is nothing like my sister's circumstances... sorry. He cheated, got a girl pregnant, moved out of state. She filed for divorce, was awarded sole custody of their daughter, with reasonable visitation time for him. He left. He chose not to be in their daughter's life for 4 years. He chose to do work that would not be tracked so he could avoid child support. My sister rents a home with her husband, our dad, her daughter, and an elderly family friend. No, your divorce is NOTHING like my sister's.


Oh sorry - I must have missed the important bit, the bit where she expects support from someone not in the household.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Originally Posted by turnera View Post
You're right! Most men DO expect women to do all the housework and childrearing while they only spend time with the kids when it's play time! And then expect the women to be raring to go in the sack that night. Thank you for pointing that out!



john117 said:


> No disagreement. Yet how well does it work if the man does all the Nice things?
> 
> Can't have it both ways.


Doormats are for walking on. If you're a "Nice Guy(tm)" who feels passive aggressively that he's entitled to what he thinks is his due than unless he has somehow selected (with his rather dodgy worldview) a woman who likewise shares the same undisclosed assumptions then it all going to go really badly.
If he's a genuine Nice Guy, there's a good chance that any half decent woman is going to walk straight over them and just do whatever she wants - we see that in many Pacific Islander marriages. The guys are very family orientated through the culture, and very passive within the family (unless they've been drinking/drugs). So they *tend* to resemble very large ants around a queen.


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## Palodyne

I have no fvcking idea. My parents are now together 53 years. I asked my mother your question. She said she has never been repulsed by my fathers touch. I can personally attest to the fact, that these two people still go to bed together. When I have to, awake them for appointments they are still cuddled together in bed. They have no interest in being separated after all this time. 

If any of the rest of us can find this kind of commitment, we should be ecstatic. Togetherness is hard to find.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

MapMan said:


> Because what a woman thinks she wants in a husband is not what her body wants. Read this:
> 
> https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/26/the-ballad-of-clark-kent/
> 
> _When Lois Lane met Superman he was fighting crime, could bend steel in his bare hands, stop locomotives, leap over tall buildings in a single bound; ****, Superman could fly! Then one day he met Lois and swept her away, rocked her world in the sack and fell in love with her because thats what Super-Men do. After a year of this whirlwind Lois starts to feel her relationship with Superman was lacking something..._


such an excellent example - and while A+B might not make sex/domestic bliss, we know damn well that lack of A+B gets us treated like s..t by everyone (except the boys down the boozer), and all the magazines, counsellors, and self-help tell men so (that it's their fault and they must beg her mercies and service her every whim to gain appeasement).
The backlash is very prompt if a male doesn't obey what he's told and play nicely. And many of the women would run off and blame the nasty horrid men, than admit the the thing they were most upset with was not getting their own way.


----------



## nirvana

EleGirl said:


> The studies that have been done on men who withhold sex vs women have found that men are as likely as women to withhold sex and make their marriage sexless.
> 
> This is not an issue that is only an issue for men who are left with sexless marriages. I think it's important for people to realize this.


Can you please quote such a study? Links etc?


----------



## Maricha75

spotthedeaddog said:


> Oh sorry - I must have missed the important bit, the bit where she expects support from someone not in the household.


I'm sorry, how is that? She expects her ex-husband to support THEIR child. THEIRS. Not only hers. She absolutely SHOULD expect him to support THEIR daughter. The IMPORTANT part of the whole thing is not what YOU perceived. The IMPORTANT part is that he PURPOSELY shirked his responsibilities. And to try to downplay the bullsh*t he did, to make him out to be the good guy in all this is pathetic. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## john117

turnera said:


> Well, that depends on if the guy is just a decent guy with REAL self esteem who won't tolerate disrespect, or if he's a Nice Guy weakling who does it just to get sex, doesn't it?


And I'm sure most people can tell the two apart


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> turnera said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're right! Most men DO expect women to do all the housework and childrearing while they only spend time with the kids when it's play time! And then expect the women to be raring to go in the sack that night. Thank you for pointing that out!
> 
> 
> 
> No disagreement. Yet how well does it work if the man does all the Nice things?
> 
> Can't have it both ways.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "Nice" things? Do you mean housework, etc?

No one is expecting anyone to have it both ways.

In most marriages, when the wife works a job outside of the home, she ends up having to do the lion's share of housework/maintenance, childcare, grocery shopping, etc.


In a much smaller percentage of marriages in which he wife workds a job outside the home, the husband does he lion's share of housework/maintenance, childcare, grocery shopping, etc.

Both are wrong. And neither makes the other a non-issue. Why you seem to think it does is a bit confusing.


----------



## EleGirl

The authors offer a few explanations. First, they write, men tend to underestimate how often their partner wants sex as a way to avoid rejection. For example, on days when a man’s motivation to avoid sexual rejection was high, he tended to underperceive his partner’s sexual desire. Second, the authors suggest that the men might underestimate their partner’s desire as a way to avoid becoming complacent. “We don’t know exactly what men do when they underperceive, but it’s possible that this keeps them from becoming lazy about maintaining their partner’s interest,” Amy Muise, the lead author on the study, told me over email. Put differently—if men think their women aren’t interested, they’ll try harder to pique their interest.

Curiously, when men underpercieved their partner’s sexual desire, their partner saw them as more committed and more satisfied in the relationship—so perhaps there’s something to this hypothesis.

Notably, men in the studies did report higher levels of sexual desire overall than woman, which the authors think could be another reason why men underestimate women’s desire (they assume it’s less than their own, but have trouble gauging it beyond that). Ultimately, women’s sexual desire was still higher than men imagined it to be, so it’s safe to say guys have gone too far with their “she doesn’t want sex” assumptions. As have we all.

Consider this—when this study started making news this week, the most common headlines were some variation of “Women are more interested in sex than you think” or “Hey guys, women want sex more often than you think.” These headlines assume that we, the readers, believe women are not interested in sex to begin with, and so this news is somehow shocking.

How does this myth continue to persist? Surveys have shown that women often want more sex than they’re having. Books have been written about the strength of the female sex drive. And studies have shown that many women are “highly sexual” and more fluid when it comes to sexuality than men.

http://fusion.net/story/308691/men-underestimate-womens-sexual-desire-study/


----------



## turnera

john117 said:


> And I'm sure most people can tell the two apart


Except for the Nice Guys stuck in loveless marriages.


----------



## EleGirl

Intimacy Anorexia: Healing the Hidden Addiction in Your Marriage –
by Ph.D. Douglas Weiss



He's Just Not Up for It Anymore: Why Men Stop Having Sex, and What You Can Do About It


----------



## john117

turnera said:


> Except for the Nice Guys stuck in loveless marriages.


I should resist the urge to respond in kind but anyhow... 

I know a ton of married couples where both work - I'm not seeing a lot of one sidedness in chores. Not a lot of manipulative guys either...

Very few people can manipulate without making it too obvious.


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> I should resist the urge to respond in kind but anyhow...
> 
> I know a ton of married couples where both work - I'm not seeing a lot of one sidedness in chores. Not a lot of manipulative guys either...
> 
> Very few people can manipulate without making it too obvious.


What you see in your social group can be very different from what others see in their social group.


----------



## turnera

john117 said:


> I should resist the urge to respond in kind but anyhow...
> 
> I know a ton of married couples where both work - I'm not seeing a lot of one sidedness in chores. Not a lot of manipulative guys either...
> 
> Very few people can manipulate without making it too obvious.


First, I wasn't talking about you.

Second, I can count on one hand the number of men who do even 25% of chores. And that's not just 'old' people. My DD25 lives with two men, and neither of those men do the chores, now that she's living there.


----------



## john117

What you see in your social group can be very different from what others see in their social group 

Why would your daughter live with two men that expect her to do chores?


----------



## Starstarfish

The social group for most people on TAM isn't millions in mansions, John, so most people on TAM arguably are already outside of your social /peer group.

Again, as I seem to need to keep saying on threads these days, if someone made some quip about there being some truth to stereotypes and inferred it about a racial/ethnic group someone would clearly point out that BS like that is racist. So why is BS like that about female kind as a collective OK?

Can I infer from stereotypes about Aussies, white guys, or rich dudes? Is that okay? I'm guessing no. 

Is this all TAM is going to turn into, multiple thread of women bashing on how pointless it is to get married? If that's the case, we should change the name of this website.


----------



## turnera

john117 said:


> What you see in your social group can be very different from what others see in their social group
> 
> Why would your daughter live with two men that expect her to do chores?


Because she is engaged to one of them, because her fiance has been out of work for almost a year and needs financial help (thanks to low gas prices), and because she's lived with her parents for all her life and she wanted to act like an adult for once?

And because she grew up with a dysfunctional father and mother and despite loving herself, still desires being with her bf instead of her parents? And because I taught her to not accept living in filth and because, since she's in grad school and has very little income, the only other thing she can offer is housework?


----------



## MrsHolland

turnera said:


> First, I wasn't talking about you.
> 
> Second, I can count on one hand the number of men who do even 25% of chores. And that's not just 'old' people. My DD25 lives with two men, and neither of those men do the chores, now that she's living there.


And then of course there are the men that are sure that they do housework even when they don't.

My ex was sure that he did a lot of housework. One day as I was in the bathroom throwing up for about the 60th day in a row with morning sickness, I pleaded with him to please help me by cleaning the bathroom. 
His response "I always clean the bathroom". 

The truth, he had cleaned it *once*, months earlier and I swear on my life that was the truth.


----------



## frusdil

MrsHolland said:


> And then of course there are the men that are sure that they do housework even when they don't.
> 
> My ex was sure that he did a lot of housework. One day as I was in the bathroom throwing up for about the 60th day in a row with morning sickness, I pleaded with him to please help me by cleaning the bathroom.
> His response "I always clean the bathroom".
> 
> The truth, he had cleaned it *once*, months earlier and I swear on my life that was the truth.


Wow that is truly shameful. I don't care if he cleaned the bl0ody bathroom yesterday...when your pregnant wife is throwing up and asks you to clean it, you clean it!


----------



## john117

Starstarfish said:


> The social group for most people on TAM isn't millions in mansions, John, so most people on TAM arguably are already outside of your social /peer group.
> 
> Again, as I seem to need to keep saying on threads these days, if someone made some quip about there being some truth to stereotypes and inferred it about a racial/ethnic group someone would clearly point out that BS like that is racist. So why is BS like that about female kind as a collective OK?
> 
> Can I infer from stereotypes about Aussies, white guys, or rich dudes? Is that okay? I'm guessing no.
> 
> Is this all TAM is going to turn into, multiple thread of women bashing on how pointless it is to get married? If that's the case, we should change the name of this website.


Funny you said that. Few of my social circle buddies are at my income level - and I despise most of them. I know people from a wide swath of socioeconomic situations... Cultures... Etc.

But don't let that alter your view of me by any chance.


----------



## john117

turnera said:


> Because she is engaged to one of them, because her fiance has been out of work for almost a year and needs financial help (thanks to low gas prices), and because she's lived with her parents for all her life and she wanted to act like an adult for once?
> 
> And because she grew up with a dysfunctional father and mother and despite loving herself, still desires being with her bf instead of her parents? And because I taught her to not accept living in filth and because, since she's in grad school and has very little income, the only other thing she can offer is housework?


Not very optimal planning imho but anyhow. Having spent a few years in oil country in the 80's I understand the situation but wouldn't agree to it - my own DD24 is a grad student, still gets some support from us, and would definitely not get into anything like it. 

Not that money is anything important. Her last SO of five years was LOADED. But he simply did not grow past high school. Her current SO is mature well past his age, a function I attribute to growing up low middle class. Hopefully they'll both have their masters degree before even considering making it official


----------



## anonmd

Now, is this in support of your regular claims that 50% of sexless marriages are caused by men? Really?





EleGirl said:


> The authors offer a few explanations. First, they write, men tend to underestimate how often their partner wants sex as a way to avoid rejection. For example, on days when a man’s motivation to avoid sexual rejection was high, he tended to underperceive his partner’s sexual desire. Second, the authors suggest that the men might underestimate their partner’s desire as a way to avoid becoming complacent. “We don’t know exactly what men do when they underperceive, but it’s possible that this keeps them from becoming lazy about maintaining their partner’s interest,” Amy Muise, the lead author on the study, told me over email. Put differently—if men think their women aren’t interested, they’ll try harder to pique their interest.
> 
> Curiously, when men underpercieved their partner’s sexual desire, their partner saw them as more committed and more satisfied in the relationship—so perhaps there’s something to this hypothesis.
> 
> Notably, men in the studies did report higher levels of sexual desire overall than woman, which the authors think could be another reason why men underestimate women’s desire (they assume it’s less than their own, but have trouble gauging it beyond that). Ultimately, women’s sexual desire was still higher than men imagined it to be, so it’s safe to say guys have gone too far with their “she doesn’t want sex” assumptions. As have we all.
> 
> Consider this—when this study started making news this week, the most common headlines were some variation of “Women are more interested in sex than you think” or “Hey guys, women want sex more often than you think.” These headlines assume that we, the readers, believe women are not interested in sex to begin with, and so this news is somehow shocking.
> 
> How does this myth continue to persist? Surveys have shown that women often want more sex than they’re having. Books have been written about the strength of the female sex drive. And studies have shown that many women are “highly sexual” and more fluid when it comes to sexuality than men.
> 
> Study: Women want sex more than their partners think | Fusion


----------



## john117

anonmd said:


> Now, is this in support of your regular claims that 50% of sexless marriages are caused by men? Really?


http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-01-21-lustless-usat_x.htm

https://kinseyinstitute.org/pdf/SexualMedicine_CH09.pdf

http://www.everydayhealth.com/sexual-health/hypoactive-sexual-desire-disorder.aspx

It's not too difficult. The Kinsey Institute report is quite interesting.


----------



## tech-novelist

EleGirl said:


> The authors offer a few explanations. First, they write, men tend to underestimate how often their partner wants sex as a way to avoid rejection. For example, on days when a man’s motivation to avoid sexual rejection was high, he tended to underperceive his partner’s sexual desire.


So it is the woman rejecting the man for sex that causes men to stop asking.

Please explain how this means that men are as likely as women to cause sexless marriages. It sounds like it is the *woman's rejection* that is causing sexless marriages.



EleGirl said:


> Second, the authors suggest that the men might underestimate their partner’s desire as a way to avoid becoming complacent. “We don’t know exactly what men do when they underperceive, but it’s possible that this keeps them from becoming lazy about maintaining their partner’s interest,” Amy Muise, the lead author on the study, told me over email. Put differently—if men think their women aren’t interested, they’ll try harder to pique their interest.


Yes, because they are desperate to get their wives to have sex with them... until they give up. How does this mean that the man is the one making the marriage sexless?



EleGirl said:


> Curiously, when men underpercieved their partner’s sexual desire, their partner saw them as more committed and more satisfied in the relationship—so perhaps there’s something to this hypothesis.


Yes, assuming that "this hypothesis" is that the women have lower interest in sex than their husbands and it reduces their guilt to think that their husbands are okay with this.



EleGirl said:


> Notably, men in the studies did report higher levels of sexual desire overall than woman, which the authors think could be another reason why men underestimate women’s desire (they assume it’s less than their own, but have trouble gauging it beyond that). Ultimately, women’s sexual desire was still higher than men imagined it to be, so it’s safe to say guys have gone too far with their “she doesn’t want sex” assumptions. As have we all.


Or they find rejection so painful that they would rather give up than suffer it any more. Which I'm sure is still the man's responsibility, not the responsibility of the one doing the rejection in the first place.



EleGirl said:


> Consider this—when this study started making news this week, the most common headlines were some variation of “Women are more interested in sex than you think” or “Hey guys, women want sex more often than you think.” These headlines assume that we, the readers, believe women are not interested in sex to begin with, and so this news is somehow shocking.
> 
> How does this myth continue to persist? Surveys have shown that women often want more sex than they’re having. Books have been written about the strength of the female sex drive. And studies have shown that many women are “highly sexual” and more fluid when it comes to sexuality than men.
> 
> Study: Women want sex more than their partners think | Fusion


Many women have plenty of sexual desire.

Unfortunately, many times it isn't for their husbands.

This is all completely in alignment with the much-maligned red pill.


----------



## tech-novelist

john117 said:


> USATODAY.com - When 'I do' becomes 'I don't want to'
> 
> https://kinseyinstitute.org/pdf/SexualMedicine_CH09.pdf
> 
> What Is Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder? - Sexual Health Center - Everyday Health
> 
> It's not too difficult. The Kinsey Institute report is quite interesting.


From the Kinsey report link:

"The survey completed by Laumann and his colleagues was particularly revealing about the subject of sexual interest in the general population (as distinct from specialty clinics). Interviewers asked respondents: “During the last 12 months has there ever been a period of several months or more when you lacked interest in having sex?” Overall, 33% of women and 16% of men answered ‘yes.’ "

So lack of interest in sex is *twice *as high in women as in men. Who could have guessed that? :surprise:


----------



## turnera

They should have asked those same men and women "How much do you contribute to household chores and child-rearing on a daily basis?"


----------



## john117

turnera said:


> They should have asked those same men and women "How much do you contribute to household chores and child-rearing on a daily basis?"












That's what moving the goalposts really looks like.


----------



## EleGirl

tech-novelist said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> The authors offer a few explanations. First, they write, men tend to underestimate how often their partner wants sex as a way to avoid rejection. For example, on days when a man’s motivation to avoid sexual rejection was high, he tended to underperceive his partner’s sexual desire.
> 
> 
> 
> So it is the woman rejecting the man for sex that causes men to stop asking.
> 
> Please explain how this means that men are as likely as women to cause sexless marriages. It sounds like it is the *woman's rejection* that is causing sexless marriages.
Click to expand...

I did not post that link to address the fact that men are as likely as women to cause a sexless marriage. I posted it because I believe that marriages are complex relationships and that there are many things that can lead to a sexless marriage or one in which one partner is not always getting as much sex as they want. It’s not always that all women are lying, manipulative, horrible, hateful, cold creatures as some men here seem to believe.

Note that in the entire article, it does not say anywhere that the wives are actually rejecting the husbands, or rejecting them to any excessive manner. Surely you don’t think that a woman has to have sex with her husband every single time he asks for sex. Do you? Is there ever a time when a woman can choose to not have sex for a good reason, like she has a bad case of the flu? Maybe the wife never or almost never turns her husband down, but he’s a guy who has an excessive fear of being turned down .

I found the article interesting because some guys might want to look at their own motivation and might discover that their own fear of rejection is what is keeping them from having sex more than anything else.


tech-novelist said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Second, the authors suggest that the men might underestimate their partner’s desire as a way to avoid becoming complacent. “We don’t know exactly what men do when they underperceive, but it’s possible that this keeps them from becoming lazy about maintaining their partner’s interest,” Amy Muise, the lead author on the study, told me over email. Put differently—if men think their women aren’t interested, they’ll try harder to pique their interest.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, because they are desperate to get their wives to have sex with them... until they give up. How does this mean that the man is the one making the marriage sexless?
Click to expand...

Again, not where did I say that this article about men making a marriage sexless. But it might explain a problem in some marriages in which the husband and wife are not communicating well about their sexual desires.



tech-novelist said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Curiously, when men underpercieved their partner’s sexual desire, their partner saw them as more committed and more satisfied in the relationship—so perhaps there’s something to this hypothesis.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, assuming that "this hypothesis" is that the women have lower interest in sex than their husbands and it reduces their guilt to think that their husbands are okay with this.
Click to expand...

I did not write the article or do the study. Instead I think it is saying that since the guy is not asking for sex, his wife perceives him as being satisfied with their sex life. Again, I think it’s talking about some couples who have a huge communication gap when it comes to their sex life.



tech-novelist said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Notably, men in the studies did report higher levels of sexual desire overall than woman, which the authors think could be another reason why men underestimate women’s desire (they assume it’s less than their own, but have trouble gauging it beyond that). Ultimately, women’s sexual desire was still higher than men imagined it to be, so it’s safe to say guys have gone too far with their “she doesn’t want sex” assumptions. As have we all.
> 
> 
> 
> Or they find rejection so painful that they would rather give up than suffer it any more. Which I'm sure is still the man's responsibility, not the responsibility of the one doing the rejection in the first place.
Click to expand...

Oh good lord. You see women as to blame for everything. It’s just ridiculous. Again, it’s about couples not communicating. There is no indication that the women in this study are turning the guys down in any unreasonable amount. What the study is saying is that the men think that the women have lower sex drives than they actually have. So the men function accordingly and even have a fear that because they think that women have low sex drives they will be turned down. Again… it’s more about communication. The couples are not talking to each other about their desire for sex. That’s what needs to be fixed.. the communication.

This is one of the reasons that all this talk about how women are all LD is so harmful. Most women are not LD. Most women are pretty HD. Yet all we keep being told is that we are LD. So number of men are told that all women are LD so they treat their wives as LD.

It’s the fault of both men and women in relationships where this is going on that they are not communicating about it.



tech-novelist said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Consider this—when this study started making news this week, the most common headlines were some variation of “Women are more interested in sex than you think” or “Hey guys, women want sex more often than you think.” These headlines assume that we, the readers, believe women are not interested in sex to begin with, and so this news is somehow shocking.
> 
> How does this myth continue to persist? Surveys have shown that women often want more sex than they’re having. Books have been written about the strength of the female sex drive. And studies have shown that many women are “highly sexual” and more fluid when it comes to sexuality than men.
> 
> Study: Women want sex more than their partners think | Fusion
> 
> 
> 
> Many women have plenty of sexual desire.
> 
> Unfortunately, many times it isn't for their husbands.
> 
> This is all completely in alignment with the much-maligned red pill.
Click to expand...

And many men have plenty of sexual desire, just not for their wives. IT’s a fact. But that's not what this article is about.


----------



## EleGirl

tech-novelist said:


> From the Kinsey report link:
> 
> "The survey completed by Laumann and his colleagues was particularly revealing about the subject of sexual interest in the general population (as distinct from specialty clinics). Interviewers asked respondents: “During the last 12 months has there ever been a period of several months or more when you lacked interest in having sex?” Overall, 33% of women and 16% of men answered ‘yes.’ "
> 
> So lack of interest in sex is *twice *as high in women as in men. Who could have guessed that? :surprise:


And did they ask why they lacked interest in sex for that time period? That might be very interesting to know.


----------



## Married but Happy

EleGirl said:


> And did they ask why they lacked interest in sex for that time period? That might be very interesting to know.


It would indeed be interesting to know why. Of course, the reasons given and the REAL reasons may not be the same. This is always a possible problem when you ask people versus observing them for periods of time, but it's seldom practical to carry out such long term observation as it is invasive.


----------



## EleGirl

anonmd said:


> Now, is this in support of your regular claims that 50% of sexless marriages are caused by men? Really?


No, it’s an interesting article that I found that might help some people (men and women) realize that they need to communicate more about their sexual desires with their spouse.


----------



## EleGirl

Married but Happy said:


> It would indeed be interesting to know why. Of course, the reasons given and the REAL reasons may not be the same. This is always a possible problem when you ask people versus observing them for periods of time, but it's seldom practical to carry out such long term observation as it is invasive.


True, but there are a lot of studies that do ask for that kind of info. Of course not everyone will tell truth. But most will. As it stands right now, the data is incomplete because it does not tell the reason why they the people did not want sex. They why is as important as not wanting it.


In the study that was done on about 4,500 men who did not want sex, the vast majority of men said that they did not want sex with their wives. Not that they did not want sex. And they listed many reasons, basically blaming their wives for them not wanting sex. It think it’s pretty typical in any marriage to blame the spouse.


----------



## EleGirl

Intimacy Anorexia: Healing the Hidden Addiction in Your Marriage  –
by Ph.D. Douglas Weiss


He's Just Not Up for It Anymore: Why Men Stop Having Sex, and What You Can Do About It


----------



## Married but Happy

EleGirl said:


> In the study that was done on about 4,500 men who did not want sex, the vast majority of men said that they did not want sex with their wives. Not that they did not want sex. And they listed many reasons, basically blaming their wives for them not wanting sex. It think it’s pretty typical in any marriage to blame the spouse.


Sometimes, the blame is well-placed. My ex usually rejected me, so eventually it was easier to stop initiating and reject her the rare times she was interested. I still wanted sex, just no longer wanted it with her - which is part of why I initiated a divorce.


----------



## EleGirl

Married but Happy said:


> Sometimes, the blame is well-placed. My ex usually rejected me, so eventually it was easier to stop initiating and reject her the rare times she was interested. I still wanted sex, just no longer wanted it with her - which is part of why I initiated a divorce.


Yes, I can say the same thing. "Sometimes, the blame is well-placed. My ex usually rejected me, so eventually it was easier to stop initiating and reject HIM the rare times HE was interested. I still wanted sex, just no longer wanted it with HIM - which is part of why I initiated a divorce."

See how that works.


----------



## EleGirl

Sex-Starved Wives

The below text is quoted from the article because I know that many will not click through on a link on a forum.

=======================================

I heard a joke the other day that goes something like this. A couple seeks marital therapy. The wife complains that her husband isn't interested in having sex. At some point in the middle of the session the therapist grabs the woman and kisses her passionately while she "oohs" and "aahs" with delight. The therapist then turns to the husband and says, "See, your wife needs this every Monday, Wednesday and Friday." The husband is quiet for a moment and then replies, "Monday and Wednesday will work, but I can't get her here on Friday. I've got a golf game."

This joke caught my attention because it had an unfamiliar ring to it: the husband didn’t want sex. We’re used to the standard jokes about desire-less women who prefer doing just about anything—cleaning out the freezer, paying bills or taking out the garbage—over having sex with their mates. But this was a new twist, a twist I might add, that has quite a bit of truth to it. 

As someone who is in the front lines with couples, I have grown increasingly aware that women have no corner on the low libido market. In fact, based on my clinical observations and casual conversations with colleagues, I’d say that low desire in men is America’s best kept secret. After all, in a culture where virility is inextricably connected with masculinity, why would any man want to broadcast his drop in desire? Most of the data available on the incidence of low libido in men is based on self-report and estimates vary widely. Do we really know what goes on behind bedroom doors? I don’t think so.

Although it isn’t hard core research by any stretch of the imagination, I teamed up with Redbook Magazine to survey women about their views on their husbands’ sexual appetites. We found some interesting results. I will mention just a few.

Sixty percent of the women surveyed said they wanted sex just as much, if not more, than their husbands. The majority of low desire men are unwilling to discuss this issue with their wives and resist seeking help from doctors or therapists. They also won’t talk to their buddies about it. (It’s hard to imagine a guy walking into a locker room, telling his friend, “I really wish my wife didn’t want sex all the time. I hate that she thinks of me as a sex object. And another thing…why can’t we hug without her thinking we have to have sex? She just has a one-track mind.”) Men’s unwillingness to openly discuss this matter leaves women feeling exasperated, lonely and hopeless.

Another interesting point is that the person with lower sexual desire (in this case, the husband) controls the frequency of sex. He has the veto power. Not only that, he expects his wife to accept it, not complain about it and to remain monogamous, an expectation that is bound to backfire over time. The survey also suggested that there is less sex in marriages when the husband has low desire than in marriages where women are the ones who say, “No.” That’s because, in our culture, men are expected to be the initiators and when it is the wife who initiates but gets turned down frequently, she is more likely to give up than her male counterpart.

Another myth-buster revealed by the survey was what women said were the causes for their husbands’ lack of desire. Contrary to popular belief that the only reason a man would turn down sex is because “his machinery isn’t working properly,” or their wives are extremely unattractive, this just isn’t so. Men, it seems, turn off to sex for many of the same reasons that their wives do- emotional disconnection, underlying resentment or unresolved problems, depression, stress and so on. In fact, one of the most common reasons men reject their wives’ advances is that they feel their wives are critical or bossy. Nagging simply isn’t an aphrodisiac. 

The problem is, which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Are men turned off to being sexual because their wives complain, or do women complain and behave angrily because their husbands are physically and emotionally withdrawn? Ah yes, the infamous catch-22. And therein lies the problem. When there is a sexual divide, each spouse waits for the other to change. “If you are nice to me, then I’ll have sex with you,” or “When you have sex with me, I’ll be kinder to you.” You don’t need a degree in psychology to know that this sort of standoff is playing with fire. Stalemates make marriages go down the tubes.

And before I get nasty comments or emails about the fact that there are millions and millions of men who go to bed lonely,…. I know, I know. I have written extensively on this subject. For the record, I routinely encourage women who have little or no understanding about their husbands’ sexual needs to place more priority on their physical relationships. But now it’s time to nudge men who have shut down and turned off, to climb out of their comfort zone and reconnect with the women they love. Don’t you agree?


----------



## 2ntnuf

john117 said:


> That's what moving the goalposts really looks like.


Felt a bit like bartering, controlling, and an admission that there is no real desire for sex to satiate physical needs with that particular person. I guess the last part might be wrong to the extent that it could be there for someone else. In the end, I wouldn't want sex because I'd believe it was duty sex to pay a debt, and there would be no desire and no love in it. 

I'd probably say, "Just forget it".

@turnera, don't think I am assigning all of these to you. I am not. I get that it was a reaction to hurt and frustration, but not true feelings for your spouse.



Is it possible the reason women want to get married is to have someone around to help out? I guess that is expected, but it seems like this kind of response would mean that's all that is wanted. I think men and women are very far apart on things. It's sad.


----------



## Married but Happy

EleGirl said:


> Yes, I can say the same thing. "Sometimes, the blame is well-placed. My ex usually rejected me, so eventually it was easier to stop initiating and reject HIM the rare times HE was interested. I still wanted sex, just no longer wanted it with HIM - which is part of why I initiated a divorce."
> 
> See how that works.


Yes, it can go both ways. How often it happens may be interesting, but understanding why is the only thing that may help to fix it. And as far as I can see from what I've experienced and read, that understanding is seldom forthcoming, as are solutions.


----------



## MrsHolland

2ntnuf said:


> ................................
> 
> 
> Is it possible the reason women want to get married is to have someone around to help out? I guess that is expected, but it seems like this kind of response would mean that's all that is wanted. I think men and women are very far apart on things. It's sad.


To help out with what?

Being married is more work for many women, they often end up with a man/child.


Men and women are not that far apart, most of us want a partner to share life with. How is that different to what men want?


----------



## anonmd

EleGirl said:


> No, it’s an interesting article that I found that might help some people (men and women) realize that they need to communicate more about their sexual desires with their spouse.


Phew, I was about to write you off as a total crackpot:wink2:

As far as some of your follow up suggesting poor communicating, yes. I'd describe it as a total lack of understanding about how the opposite sex thinks but communication is in there as well. 

This came out of my wife's mouth within the past few years, as close to a direct quote as I can manage, " it's too bad that now my libido has shut off and yours has gotten higher " !!!!! WTF!!! She's turned me down a thousand times, how the hell can she hold that thought in her head at the same time?


----------



## 2ntnuf

MrsHolland said:


> To help out with what?


Exactly! Each would have to take care of themselves if alone. 





MrsHolland said:


> Being married is more work for many women, they often end up with a man/child.


I guess many men and women are pretty far apart on things? 





MrsHolland said:


> Men and women are not that far apart, most of us want a partner to share life with.


Many women often end up with a man/child. I'm not following. 




MrsHolland said:


> How is that different to what men want?


:circle:


----------



## EllisRedding

I do wonder if people comprehend how much damage frequent rejection does in a relationship (gender neutral here). I am not talking about an occasional no (i.e. you are sick, need sleep, etc..) but constant rejection (which at a certain point you have to believe it is meant to put down a person or exert control over).


----------



## EllisRedding

MrsHolland said:


> Being married is more work for many women, they often end up with a man/child.


So you are saying many men are just a bunch of overgrown children  I am not saying there aren't some men out there like that, but by the same token there are some women out there who act like little girls. However, to imply that "many" men are this way is quite the generalization...


----------



## john117

EleGirl said:


> And did they ask why they lacked interest in sex for that time period? That might be very interesting to know.


Amateur Social Sciences guy says...

While it would be great to add a variable in the female dataset to capture reason (QDA lolz) think about the male dataset, which would have its own reasons. 

So, once the difference is observed and found to be statistically significant, then we look at the reason to see what factors are contributing to the difference.


----------



## turnera

My generalized statement is that women grow up learning how to take care of a household while men grow up learning how to let his mom do it. So when each get married, chances are they'll repeat what they learned.


----------



## 2ntnuf

EllisRedding said:


> I do wonder if people comprehend how much damage frequent rejection does in a relationship (gender neutral here). I am not talking about an occasional no (i.e. you are sick, need sleep, etc..) but constant rejection (which at a certain point you have to believe it is meant to put down a person or exert control over).


I didn't. If memory serves me, I didn't think about it much. You only think about it if you are horny. I wasn't. 

What is hard for me to wrap my head around is that I loved her deeply. How can you love someone and not be horny? 

I guess it's more than just simple rejection to have control? I know that some of it was the meds I was prescribed. Some of them messed with function, and some with desire. 

I didn't know. You can only know this if you want to know. 

If you both are too afraid to address those issues properly for your own personal reasons, it can certainly seem like it's done on purpose to control.

I asked myself what I was trying to get, if I was intending to control? I don't know. Some might say I wanted her 20 something year old daughter to get a job and move out. I did want her to move out, but the only thing her presence did was to stop me from pursuing her mother.

I wasn't that desirous, so it really didn't make that much difference to me, in the end. What it did do was to stop me the few times I was in the mood. Then, it took time again for me to get back in the mood to initiate. So, it wasn't a control thing, just an unfortunate circumstance.

Even communication wouldn't have done much to alleviate the situation. I wouldn't and didn't have any more interest after talking. Yeah, I knew I needed to get checked out. Again, if you don't have that desire and have trouble performing when you do, it seems like something you just can't do anything about. 

I would have understood, yet hated it, if she divorced. I was broken by the infidelities. I am still affected five years later. She was dating and having sex while we were married. 

How could it have been very painful for her? She wanted sex. She got it. She wasn't suffering because she was being chased by men who wanted her. I have difficulty wrapping my brain around that.

After separation, I would see her out on the back of someone's motorcycle once in a while. It wasn't the same guy. It was different men. All I am saying with that is, she was getting plenty of attention and service. 

She didn't fall apart after. She became better off than I ever was or ever will be. It's tough to believe that the impact of rejection was that detrimental to her. 

My conclusion is, what I did meant little to her. I meant little to her. Had I known, I would have tried to understand and then divorced, after an attempt to understand through counseling.

As it is, I will not and have not had sex since I last had it with her, over five years ago. I am still in counseling with a phd level psychologist. I will likely never quit until I'm dead. 

Of course, I could be totally mistaken. I never thought she didn't love me before marriage. I didn't know she had this capacity in her. I never thought I'd be at TAM. I didn't even know there were sites like TAM. 

Who knows what the future holds? I sure don't.


----------



## EllisRedding

turnera said:


> My generalized statement is that women grow up learning how to take care of a household while men grow up learning how to let his mom do it. So when each get married, chances are they'll repeat what they learned.


IDK, when I grew up I was taught about being a man, to provide for and protect my family. Yes, maybe that didn't quite cover doing laundry, but to equate that as being a child is silly. Now, given these days where more and more women are entering the workforce, you could argue that less are growing up with the idea of caring for a household. 

My post obviously wasn't directed at you, but if I had posted the opposite of what Mrs H posted as rationale for who has it harder in a marriage (the opposite being "Men have it harder then women in a marriage because many women are emotionally unstable and on any given day, hour, or minute you never know which emotion/personality you will be dealing with", I am sure I would be ripped to shreds over. Note, I don't believe this statement (at least not in the context of many to make it a generalization).


----------



## turnera

I didn't say the man was a child. I said he expected the woman to do the housework.


----------



## EleGirl

2ntnuf said:


> Is it possible the reason women want to get married is to have someone around to help out? I guess that is expected, but it seems like this kind of response would mean that's all that is wanted. I think men and women are very far apart on things. It's sad.


No, it's not that women get married to have someone around to help out. It's that once married, many men stop taking care of things that they do for themselves when they are single and leave it for the wife to do.

I'll give you an example.

Before I married my second husband, he had 100% custody of his two children. So he worked full time, kept the house, cooked, and took care of his kids.

After we married he did nothing, and I mean nothing. Yes I tried talking to him as clearly as possible to get him to take responsibility for things in the house, yard and with his own children. He gave it lip service and would agree verbally. But he never cleaned anything. Never did a dish. Never cooked a meal. NOTHING.

I know that my situation might seem extreme, but I have known a lot of women who work, have children and have husbands who will not lift a finger. If she had not married him, she would not have as much work to do in the house...after all she's cleaning and picking up after a grown man who acts like a 13 year old around the house. Plus she's taking care of the children who are 50% his.

So no, we do not get married to have someone to help. Neither do we get married so that we can be the maid and babysitter for a full grown man-child.


----------



## EllisRedding

turnera said:


> I didn't say the man was a child. I said he expected the woman to do the housework.


That wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the comment that many women end up with a man/child


----------



## john117

EllisRedding said:


> That wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the comment that many women end up with a man/child


And men never ends up with a woman child equivalent?


----------



## Married but Happy

turnera said:


> My generalized statement is that women grow up learning how to take care of a household while men grow up learning how to let his mom do it. So when each get married, chances are they'll repeat what they learned.


I think there is a lot of truth to that. It's a socialization/culturization thing, or conditioning. It takes changing social circumstances to make a general change in pervasive behaviors, and that is underway, but far from complete even in countries where this has been the trend for decades. You don't see it happening at all in lots of other countries!

I grew up helping my mother (and father) with chores. I know how to do everything essential for household chores and maintenance, except I had little training with cooking - I can, but mostly basic stuff unless I put in a lot of effort and study a cookbook. (My mother was a poor cook, BTW!)

So, I do my part. How much and when depends on who has the time based on schedules, etc. My wife does more cooking (and I often help), but I do more of other things. It balances out pretty well.


----------



## EllisRedding

john117 said:


> And men never ends up with a woman child equivalent?


Apparently not ...


----------



## turnera

Married but Happy said:


> I think there is a lot of truth to that. It's a socialization/culturization thing, or conditioning. It takes changing social circumstances to make a general change in pervasive behaviors, and that is underway, but far from complete even in countries where this has been the trend for decades. You don't see it happening at all in lots of other countries!
> 
> I grew up helping my mother (and father) with chores. I know how to do everything essential for household chores and maintenance, except I had little training with cooking - I can, but mostly basic stuff unless I put in a lot of effort and study a cookbook. (My mother was a poor cook, BTW!)
> 
> So, I do my part. How much and when depends on who has the time based on schedules, etc. My wife does more cooking (and I often help), but I do more of other things. It balances out pretty well.


I always said I wanted to have 3 sons so I could grow great guys who would NOT turn out to expect the woman to do it all just because she's female, lol. 

Likewise, every year, I added a chore to DD's list, so that by the time she graduated, she knew how to change oil, fix a flat, mow the lawn, shampoo carpets, do minor repairs, change a lock, etc.

As far as her chores at her apartment, when she moved in, she made an agreement with the guys - they would cook and empty the dishwasher, and she would dust and vacuum and do dishes. Unfortunately, the guy who promised to empty the dishwasher, never would.


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## john117

EllisRedding said:


> Apparently not ...


Me and my brother both did actually, for completely different reasons...


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## john117

Ah, there's no way I would let my daughters move in with guys - even engaged. The older has her own place and is an excellent cook and housekeeper (no repairs) but the younger will likely be the first medical school student to live in the dorm as she has zero practical housekeeping skills .

Apparently operating a mass spectrometry or electron microscopy gadget provides few useful life skills insights...


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## Starstarfish

> but the younger will likely be the first medical school student to live in the dorm as she has zero practical housekeeping skills .


How is her living in the dorm going to help that, she doesn't have any basic understanding of cooking or taking care of herself?


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## turnera

Uh, there's no housecleaning service in dorms...

In fact, the RAs come by every month or two to inspect and dock you if it's not clean enough.


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## EllisRedding

turnera said:


> Uh, there's no housecleaning service in dorms...
> 
> In fact, the RAs come by every month or two to inspect and dock you if it's not clean enough.


Serious? I was an RA and that was never a responsibility


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## Maricha75

EllisRedding said:


> Serious? I was an RA and that was never a responsibility


She's right. The RA when I lived in the dorm actually did do inspections and if the rooms were not in order, we would get a write up. Never happened to our suite, though. 

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## turnera

Yep. They lost privileges if the rooms weren't ok. Of course, that led to lots of people trying to butter up the RA, lol.


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## EllisRedding

Maricha75 said:


> She's right. The RA when I lived in the dorm actually did do inspections and if the rooms were not in order, we would get a write up. Never happened to our suite, though.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Wow, that is crazy, never heard of such a thing. The only thing we would do is if we walked by a dorm room, if the door was wide open and we saw a violation we would say something.


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## Starstarfish

> Serious? I was an RA and that was never a responsibility


Might depend on the university, but I had friends who were RAs who had that responsibility and it was half "checking cleanliness levels" and half "using an excuse to check for contraband."


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## turnera

The colleges probably used to have a person for that sort of thing but they cut costs and now make the RA do it, just like every other company expecting its people do more for the same pay.


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## EllisRedding

turnera said:


> The colleges probably used to have a person for that sort of thing but they cut costs and now make the RA do it, just like every other company expecting its people do more for the same pay.


I guess it could depend. This was back in the late 90s but no one was responsible for this (RA or others of the college). The only check would come after the students moved out. The RAs would go through the rooms and flag any damage/issues that would then get charged back to the students (compared against the inspection the RAs did at the beginning before the students moved in). Of course though every school may handle this differently.


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## john117

turnera said:


> Uh, there's no housecleaning service in dorms...
> 
> In fact, the RAs come by every month or two to inspect and dock you if it's not clean enough.


Minimal housecleaning required... Bathrooms are cleaned daily by the dorm elves. She makes her bed (did we get our money's worth off the twin XL sheets or what), keeps her desk clean, maybe use the dorm vacuum once in a while, and that's all she wrote. Absolutely zero interest in domestic skills 

She'll get her own apartment for med school but hopefully in our own state so not too far. She's not messy or anything, just not the house cleaning type.


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## Maricha75

EllisRedding said:


> I guess it could depend. This was back in the late 90s but no one was responsible for this (RA or others of the college). The only check would come after the students moved out. The RAs would go through the rooms and flag any damage/issues that would then get charged back to the students (compared against the inspection the RAs did at the beginning before the students moved in). Of course though every school may handle this differently.


My experience was in the early/mid 90s, so it seems it varied by universities.

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## Maricha75

john117 said:


> Minimal housecleaning required... Bathrooms are cleaned daily by the dorm elves. She makes her bed (did we get our money's worth off the twin XL sheets or what), keeps her desk clean, maybe use the dorm vacuum once in a while, and that's all she wrote. Absolutely zero interest in domestic skills
> 
> She'll get her own apartment for med school but hopefully in our own state so not too far. She's not messy or anything, just not the house cleaning type.


That wouldn't fly with my roommates lol. We split the cleaning, no exceptions. So everyone had to do each chore at least once a month.

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## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> Apparently not ...


Oh come on. No one here is saying that all women are perfect. Of course some men are unlucky and end up marrying a woman who is basically a woman-child.

What is being said is that some (not all) men behave like a men-child by expecting their wife, who also works for a living, to do all the housework, child care, etc. And that yes, this can lead to a woman not wanting sex with the guy who is basically not treating her very well.


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## EllisRedding

EleGirl said:


> Oh come on. No one here is saying that all women are perfect. Of course some men are unlucky and end up marrying a woman who is basically a woman-child.
> 
> What is being said is that some (not all) men behave like a men-child by expecting their wife, who also works for a living, to do all the housework, child care, etc. And that yes, this can lead to a woman not wanting sex with the guy who is basically not treating her very well.


Sorry @EleGirl, you obviously miss what I am responding to. I did not disagree that some guys are like that. My issue was the statements that *many* men are like that. You clearly even stated that in your post which I will quote below. IMO there is a big difference between saying "some" and "many", that is all I am trying to draw a distinction from. 



> No, it's not that women get married to have someone around to help out. It's that once married, *many men* stop taking care of things that they do for themselves when they are single and leave it for the wife to do.


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## UMP

turnera said:


> My generalized statement is that women grow up learning how to take care of a household while men grow up learning how to let his mom do it. So when each get married, chances are they'll repeat what they learned.


Very True.
When my wife first met me I was living by myself in my own small home. She went to check my fridge. The only thing she could find was exactly 1 gallon of vitamin D milk and NOTHING else.

She almost left right then and there.

Right or wrong, my mother did everything for me. Hell, my first year of college I would drive 2 hours home to get my mother to clean my clothes.

My first year of flight school (pilot) was a two day drive from home.
I ended up putting all my dirty laundry in the closet. I could not figure out why I had nothing to wear. The clothes should have magically cleaned and folded themselves.
I literally cleaned and wore the same thing over and over again. I had no idea what to do.

I tried my hardest to tell my wife all the troubles I had to go through because of everything my mother did for me. Guess what, my wife did exactly the same thing for my son. He has never cleaned a thing in his life.

Unless my son finds someone just like his mother he is going to be in a world of hurt.


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## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> Sorry @EleGirl, you obviously miss what I am responding to. I did not disagree that some guys are like that. My issue was the statements that *many* men are like that. You clearly even stated that in your post which I will quote below. IMO there is a big difference between saying "some" and "many", that is all I am trying to draw a distinction from.


On average, women spend 3.22 hours a week more doing household and child care type chores than men do. These are women who are also working outside the home. Seems more than a bit skewed in the even the ‘average’ household. If we go by those numbers, yes most men are not taking full responsibility at home when they have a wife who is working.

According to The Bureau of Labor Statistics' (BLS) annual Time Use Survey reveals that the percentage of men and women who are involved in household activities, defined as housework, cooking, cleaning up after cooking, and generally taking care of the household, has barely moved since 2003, when the bureau began tracking Americans' day-to-day activities. Eleven years ago, 63 percent of men reported doing some household activity, while 84 percent of women did. In 2014, the numbers were almost the same, according to the BLS: 65 percent for men and 83 percent for women. Of those men and women who engaged in household duties at all, women spent about 2.57 hours on them each day in 2014, a decrease of 9 minutes over 11 years. Over the same period, men's contributions have remained intransigent: In 2003 they spent 2.1 hours a day on housework, while in 2014 it was 2.11 hours. (On a positive note, more men seem to be into cooking.)

The lack of movement is stunning when one considers everything else that's happened during the intervening period: Women now make up almost half of the U.S. labor force; there was, and is again, a viable female presidential candidate in Hillary Clinton; there are women leading the Federal Reserve and the International Monetary Fund. In four out of 10 households with children, women are the sole or primary breadwinner.

Women in the U.S. Still Do Way More Housework Than Men - Bloomberg


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## EllisRedding

EleGirl said:


> On average, women spend 3.22 hours a week more doing household and child care type chores than men do. These are women who are also working outside the home. Seems more than a bit skewed in the even the ‘average’ household. If we go by those numbers, yes most men are not taking full responsibility at home when they have a wife who is working.


The type of work being done by each can have a big impact on who does what in the house, and how much time is spent. For example, I know plenty of women who are teachers, get home by 3pm vs. their H getting home closer to 6-7pm. Naturally this will lead them to spending more time on house related items. Likewise for nurses, when my W was working full time she worked 3 12 hour shifts which meant she was home for 4 days. Yes, I understand this doesn't account for everyone (Nurses and Teachers do account for a large amount of the jobs by me), but factors like this, as well as working part time will skew the numbers in one direction or the other (I can't tell from the BLS report if they only looked at full time employees, if they factored in part time employees, stay at homes, etc).

Per the below the biggest discrepancy seems to be the amount of men on average per day doing housework vs. women. You can draw a conclusion from this, but undoubtedly without knowing the specifics of each situation there are still plenty of variables that could impact this.

Is there still an imbalance, yes, never said there wasn't. From my experience and people I know IRL, do I believe it is still heavily skewed towards women (i.e. if you marry a man the odds are you will be marrying a "man-child" as has been so eloquently put by some here), no.




> Household Activities in 2015
> 
> --On an average day, 85 percent of women and 67 percent of men spent some time doing
> household activities such as housework, cooking, lawn care, or financial and other
> household management. (See table 1.)
> 
> --On the days they did household activities, women spent an average of 2.6 hours on
> such activities, while men spent 2.1 hours. (See table 1.)
> 
> --On an average day, 22 percent of men did housework--such as cleaning or laundry--compared
> with 50 percent of women. Forty-three percent of men did food preparation or cleanup,
> compared with 70 percent of women. Men were slightly more likely to engage in lawn and
> garden care than were women--12 percent compared with 8 percent. (See table 1.)
> 
> --From 2003 to 2015, the share of men doing food preparation and cleanup on an average
> day increased from 35 percent to 43 percent. The average time per day men spent doing
> food preparation and cleanup increased by 5 minutes, from 16 minutes in 2003 to 21
> minutes in 2015. (See table 1.)
> 
> --From 2003 to 2015, the share of women doing housework on an average day decreased
> from 54 percent to 50 percent. The average time per day women spent doing housework
> declined from 58 minutes in 2003 to 52 minutes in 2015. (See table 1.)


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## Maricha75

@EllisRedding - teachers home by 3pm??? Where is this? Any teachers I know end up staying at the school until *at least* 4pm, but then have to grade assignments each night as well as make sure they have the lesson plan up to date each night. Add to that the other work requirements each may have and it is a far cry from the "home by 3pm" presented. 

And then you suggested the husband getting home by 6 or 7pm. Ok? Does this mean that neither can do the necessary housework on days off? Or even after work? Assuming the husband, getting home by 6 or 7, has an 8 hour shift... it doesn't mean his work is necessarily harder than his wife's. In fact, he may have an easier job than she does. The difference in arrival after work makes no difference when it comes to how much each should be doing in the household. 

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## EllisRedding

Maricha75 said:


> @EllisRedding - teachers home by 3pm??? Where is this? Any teachers I know end up staying at the school until *at least* 4pm, but then have to grade assignments each night as well as make sure they have the lesson plan up to date each night. Add to that the other work requirements each may have and it is a far cry from the "home by 3pm" presented.
> 
> And then you suggested the husband getting home by 6 or 7pm. Ok? Does this mean that neither can do the necessary housework on days off? Or even after work? Assuming the husband, getting home by 6 or 7, has an 8 hour shift... it doesn't mean his work is necessarily harder than his wife's. In fact, he may have an easier job than she does. *The difference in arrival after work makes no difference when it comes to how much each should be doing in the household. *
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Yes, many teachers are home between 3-4pm at the latest (and yes, I am fully aware of what teachers doing growing up with a parent who was a teacher).

Also, you are changing around what I said. I never said one person is working harder than another. The point being, if one person gets home at 4pm, the other gets home at 7pm (also, no clue what an 8 hr shift is as I have never worked that...), naturally the 4pm person during the week is more likely to be the one handling food prep/homework, etc... for this kids. This also doesn't imply that housework isn't being done on the weekends by both, but the job and hours can undoubtedly skew the data. 

As an example, my sister is a lawyer, works from home (only travel is going to court). My BIL works in an office which has him out of the house most of the day. This means my sister is the one home when the kids get home from school/daycare, so she is the one taking care of the housework specific to them at that point (food prep/cleanup, homework). During the weekend my BIL is out of the house much of the day handling all the kids activities (which seemingly doesn't get factored in to housework I guess), this is how they decided to split things up. 

When my W worked full time she was home 2 full days more then me (I work typically 11-12 hours days, add in another 2 hours commute), so more of the housework was shifted to her. Does this mean I just sat on my rear when I was home and expected her to wait on me hand and foot, nope. If you did add up the hours being done on house related stuff though, she spent more time on versus me.

So yes, I disagree with you on the bolded.


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## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> Also, you are changing around what I said. I never said one person is working harder than another. The point being, if one person gets home at 4pm, the other gets home at 7pm (also, no clue what an 8 hr shift is as I have never worked that...), naturally the 4pm person during the week is more likely to be the one handling food prep/homework, etc... for this kids. This also doesn't imply that housework isn't being done on the weekends by both, but the job and hours can undoubtedly skew the data.


I don't really see it. Scheduling variance would not be gender specific. Furthermore, people who work later in the afternoon often go in later in the morning, providing another opportunity.


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## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't really see it. Scheduling variance would not be gender specific.* Furthermore, people who work later in the afternoon often go in later in the morning, providing another opportunity.*


The bolded is definitely not what I see in my industry. You go in early and get home late. The whole 8 hour shift thing does not exist (in my industry and many others I know).


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## Maricha75

EllisRedding said:


> The bolded is definitely not what I see in my industry. You go in early and get home late. The whole 8 hour shift thing does not exist (in my industry and many others I know).


In the jobs around here, the norm is 8 hours or less. Most definitely, very different experiences. But I do find it hard to believe you have never heard of 8 hour days (or less). I don't believe you worked more than that when you were in high school, if you did work during high school, because it's illegal for anyone under 18 to work that long (and you already established your age to be around the same as mine).

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## NobodySpecial

Maricha75 said:


> In the jobs around here, the norm is 8 hours or less. Most definitely, very different experiences. But I do find it hard to believe you have never heard of 8 hour days (or less).
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I don't see how it matters to the stats he is replying to since there is no reason to suspect that women make up fewer hours of work.


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## EllisRedding

Maricha75 said:


> In the jobs around here, the norm is 8 hours or less. Most definitely, very different experiences. But I do find it hard to believe you have never heard of 8 hour days (or less). I don't believe you worked more than that when you were in high school, if you did work during high school, because it's illegal for anyone under 18 to work that long (and you already established your age to be around the same as mine).
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Trust me, 8 hour work days are like the boogyman, you hear about them all the time but never actually see them. I have never worked a typically 8 hour work day since I started working, nor have others in my industry. Also, not sure what high school or being 18 has to do with this conversation  I didn't work in high school due to sports after school if that is your concern. I also wasn't married in high school 



NobodySpecial said:


> I don't see how it matters to the stats he is replying to since there is no reason to suspect that women make up fewer hours of work.


It does when I stated, in my area, teachers and nurses make up a large portion of the workforce, especially amongst females.


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## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> It does when I stated, in my area, teachers and nurses make up a large portion of the workforce, especially amongst females.


You don't have women in non-teaching and nursing jobs? You don't have male teachers and nurses? That is just weird.


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## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> You don't have women in non-teaching and nursing jobs? You don't have male teachers and nurses? That is just weird.


Kindly show me where I said that, all I said is that there are a larger portion of females in those positions. But please, keep changing around what I say all you like lol.


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## wilson

EleGirl said:


> What is being said is that some (not all) men behave like a men-child by expecting their wife, who also works for a living, to do all the housework, child care, etc. And that yes, this can lead to a woman not wanting sex with the guy who is basically not treating her very well.


Not wanting sex with someone who is treating you poorly? Totally understandable.

Not wanting sex at all with anyone and not having any type of sexual desire at all? Not very understandable. 

What's often confusing is how a woman's sex drive will go completely to zero. Not just for her H, who she perceives (rightly or wrongly) as not worthy, but no sexual desire at all. It is extremely rare for a man to not have any sexual desire. He may not want sex with his W, but he will still have the urge and will satisfy it in some way. But often for women, there just is no urge at all. 

Even in your example, it's not clear why a woman in that scenario would have no sexual desire. A man will generally have sexual urges regardless of what's going on in his life or how his partner is treating him. But we commonly see that a woman's desire can go to zero across the board because of a variety of external factors.

I think as for the topic of this thread, I think often W start viewing their nice, honest, hardworking H more as a brother than a lover. Once that switch gets flipped that he's a brother, it's not surprising that she doesn't feel sexual towards him. People generally aren't attracted towards their siblings regardless of how attractive or desirable they are. Something in our heads makes us not desire siblings. Something similar happens in W's heads to make them feel like having sex with their H is like doing it with their brother.


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## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> Kindly show me where I said that, all I said is that there are a larger portion of females in those positions. But please, keep changing around what I say all you like lol.


I am not seeing how a handful of jobs in nursing and teaching could skew the stats the Ele has mentioned. Particularly nationally.


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## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not seeing how a handful of jobs in nursing and teaching could skew the stats the Ele has mentioned. Particularly nationally.


I was simply asking additional questions in relation to the data as per the labor statistics and relating it to what I see in my own personal experience where I live. Nothing more or nothing less. In my own area nursing/teaching accounts for more then a handful of jobs, but once again, this is just looking specifically at my area. Take from it what you please. I didn't know that somehow not working an 8 hour day would be brought into question or cause disbelief lol.


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## Red Sonja

2ntnuf said:


> Women don't have to be aroused to have sex. Men do. Guess what? She controls the sexual health of the marriage. If she isn't turning him on and neither have a health issue, it isn't his fault.


Gee thanks, you just dumped the blame for 26 years of a sexless marriage in my lap ... the wife who never said "no" and initiated with no luck. 

:nono:


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## anonmd

A: Teaching and Nursing is not a handful of jobs, they are a huge number of jobs and dominated by women. 

B: Many women choose careers such as teaching and nursing or something else which have some feature they deem desirable and compatible with raising children. Summers off, somewhat flexible hours, rigid hours that almost never bleed beyond 8 in a workday, etc. Whatever. 

Is this changing, sure, it'll never disappear. 

A lot of ink spilled over 3.2 hours, wow . How about a study on male vs. female time devoted to Facebook, there's another useless statistic to argue over.


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## Maricha75

EllisRedding said:


> Trust me, 8 hour work days are like the boogyman, you hear about them all the time but never actually see them. I have never worked a typically 8 hour work day since I started working, nor have others in my industry. Also, not sure what high school or being 18 has to do with this conversation  I didn't work in high school due to sports after school if that is your concern. I also wasn't married in high school


I wasn't married in high school, either. The reference to high school and work was because of my doubt regarding you never working an 8 hour shift... ever. Even the idea of not working due to sports involvement doesn't make sense to me. I know there are quite a few who don't, so I understand that part. But I also know others who manage to juggle sports, band, and work with no problem. I was in choir and worked. But that explains why you don't understand about 8 hour workday (or less).

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## 2ntnuf

Ele, say what you want, but there was a hell of a lot more to that post than just what she left there. She went back and deleted or back spaced on a lot more than what is there. 

And, you know you can do that once without it showing an edit. :wink2:

Those things that were eliminated from the post were what I was commenting on. 

I could have quoted it in that post of mine, but didn't think @turnera would appreciate that, if she wanted to get rid of it later. So, I quoted @john117. It was an offer of some respect and kindness to turnera. 



Of course I know that men are expected to do their share. Of course I know that never works out. Of course I know it will never seem fair to one or both partners, at times. Sometimes, there will always be one partner who feels slighted. 

If a couple can't talk about it and work it out, if you're unable to handle the work load that you have, no matter what is the cause, get a divorce. 

Why hold it in till you can't stand to be around him? Why not make a change? It seems like from your response, you waited too long and got so angry, it still bugs you. 

I know some folks who have said they used to do things, but their wife was so nurturing that she started doing things he used to do and slowly drove him away from doing much housework. He ended up just working on things outside, in the basement, garage, the mechanical maintenance on the doors and windows and painting.

His wife told all her friends and family that he didn't do a darn thing to help her. It's kind of true, and it isn't. Much of what he did(to help with the laundry, cleaning, etc.), she just complained was inferior work and she would do it again to make it right. 




One guy told me he had so many complaints from his wife, he decided to sit down and talk with her, initiating the conversation himself, because all he heard was insinuations from her friends and family. 

When they sat down and talked, she was so vague about what she wanted him to do, he decided to ask if he could make a list of all things needing done and split them evenly, but with compromises, right down the middle. 

She got angry as hell and told him she'd do it herself. Then, she complained more. 

This led to her feeling disrespected, used as a maid, and unappreciated. She acted like she was repulsed by his touch. 

If there is no discussion and compromise, how do they both feel like they are a part of the machinations of the family and household? Is it best to divorce? 






EleGirl said:


> No, it's not that women get married to have someone around to help out. It's that once married, many men stop taking care of things that they do for themselves when they are single and leave it for the wife to do.
> 
> I'll give you an example.
> 
> Before I married my second husband, he had 100% custody of his two children. So he worked full time, kept the house, cooked, and took care of his kids.
> 
> After we married he did nothing, and I mean nothing. Yes I tried talking to him as clearly as possible to get him to take responsibility for things in the house, yard and with his own children. He gave it lip service and would agree verbally. But he never cleaned anything. Never did a dish. Never cooked a meal. NOTHING.
> 
> I know that my situation might seem extreme, but I have known a lot of women who work, have children and have husbands who will not lift a finger. If she had not married him, she would not have as much work to do in the house...after all she's cleaning and picking up after a grown man who acts like a 13 year old around the house. Plus she's taking care of the children who are 50% his.
> 
> So no, we do not get married to have someone to help. Neither do we get married so that we can be the maid and babysitter for a full grown man-child.



If you and everyone else think I do not understand, you are very mistaken. I do, much more than you know. As I said above, there is at least a paragraph missing from turnera's post. She went off a little and I knew it. I just wondered how common these feelings are among women, since I've heard similar things before. 

My comments weren't meant to offend turnera.


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## EllisRedding

Maricha75 said:


> I wasn't married in high school, either. The reference to high school and work was because of my doubt regarding you never working an 8 hour shift... ever. Even the idea of not working due to sports involvement doesn't make sense to me. I know there are quite a few who don't, so I understand that part. But I also know others who manage to juggle sports, band, and work with no problem. I was in choir and worked. But that explains why you don't understand about 8 hour workday (or less).
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


My first job was summer internship in college. My normal hours were 7:30am - 6pm. Following summer similar hours (except overseas). After that I graduated, and my normal hours have been 7:30am-6:30pm / 8am-6pm / or similar. This is also very common for others as well that I work with.

However, I don't understand the questioning about high school. I didn't need to work in high school (no, I didn't come from an independently wealthy family), so between school and sports that took up more then enough time for me. Not sure why, but your post seems to come across a bit judgy b/c you and you knew others who did work during school, don't see your motivation with this tbh.


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## 2ntnuf

turnera said:


> I always said I wanted to have 3 sons so I could grow great guys* who would NOT turn out to expect the woman to do it all just because she's female*, lol.
> 
> Likewise, every year, I added a chore to DD's list, so that by the time she graduated, she knew how to change oil, fix a flat, mow the lawn, shampoo carpets, do minor repairs, change a lock, etc.
> 
> As far as her chores at her apartment, when she moved in, she made an agreement with the guys - they would cook and empty the dishwasher, and she would dust and vacuum and do dishes. Unfortunately, the guy who promised to empty the dishwasher, never would.


Oh, I get it now. You women attacking me assume that I'm one of these types who doesn't do it because it's women's work? 

It all makes sense, now. Silly me for thinking that you were all progressive women. 

I'll try to keep this sexist attitude in mind when I read angry posts to men.


----------



## Maricha75

EllisRedding said:


> My first job was summer internship in college. My normal hours were 7:30am - 6pm. Following summer similar hours (except overseas). After that I graduated, and my normal hours have been 7:30am-6:30pm / 8am-6pm / or similar. This is also very common for others as well that I work with.
> 
> However, I don't understand the questioning about high school. I didn't need to work in high school (no, I didn't come from an independently wealthy family), so between school and sports that took up more then enough time for me. Not sure why, but your post seems to come across a bit judgy b/c you and you knew others who did work during school, don't see your motivation with this tbh.


As I stated, it didn't make sense to have someone say they had never heard of an 8 hour workday. That was the only motivation for it. You use examples from your own experience, just as I did. Neither is judgmental, but both cannot understand something we have not, ourselves, experienced. You have only experienced 10 hour workdays (roughly). I have only experienced 8 hour workdays (or less). And the *only* reason high school was brought in was because *if* you had worked in high school, you would have experienced what I described... at least, if you were under the age of 18. But, you didn't so you answered my question about how it is even possible you never experienced that. 

But, even though you said you disagreed with me on one point, you kind of agreed, too. You stated that even when you get home from work, you don't expect your wife to do everything for you. This says that you *do* help with some of the work... even in small amounts. My understanding was that you initially implied that if one gets home earlier than the other, then that one should have to do all the work. All, not just some. And, I apologize if I misunderstood your position on that. But, when you said that you don't expect your wife to wait on you, that tells me that even though you got home later, you still pitched in. 

But, like I said, you write from your experience and I write from mine. In my experience, which is limited to 8 hour days or less, the one who gets home later also goes in later, as NS stated. And, in that case, there is no reason that it wouldn't be a reasonable expectation to share household duties *equally*. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## 2ntnuf

EllisRedding said:


> Sorry @EleGirl, you obviously miss what I am responding to. I did not disagree that some guys are like that. My issue was the statements that *many* men are like that. You clearly even stated that in your post which I will quote below. IMO there is a big difference between saying "some" and "many", that is all I am trying to draw a distinction from.


These are the reasons why men give up. Twisted facts, assumptions and vitriol, without asking a single question to clarify before going into a sermon about why most men, many men, no, some men are basicly just using their wives for their pleasure, as a housekeeper, and never do much to help out. 

See, if this kind of attitude was in the marriage, it's no wonder there were troubles. 

Both sides have to work together and communicate. It's already been determined that some of us are no good and treat wives like prostitutes and housekeepers. 

Sometimes, I wonder why we even try. It is not appreciated.


----------



## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> The bolded is definitely not what I see in my industry. You go in early and get home late. The whole 8 hour shift thing does not exist (in my industry and many others I know).


Yep, and men are not the only ones who go in early and get home late. Where I have worked for the last 35 years, both men and women do this.


----------



## 2ntnuf

EleGirl said:


> On average, women spend 3.22 hours a week more doing household and child care type chores than men do. These are women who are also working outside the home. Seems more than a bit skewed in the even the ‘average’ household. If we go by those numbers, yes most men are not taking full responsibility at home when they have a wife who is working.
> 
> According to The Bureau of Labor Statistics' (BLS) annual Time Use Survey reveals that the percentage of men and women who are involved in household activities, defined as housework, cooking, cleaning up after cooking, and generally taking care of the household, has barely moved since 2003, when the bureau began tracking Americans' day-to-day activities. Eleven years ago, 63 percent of men reported doing some household activity, while 84 percent of women did. In 2014, the numbers were almost the same, according to the BLS: 65 percent for men and 83 percent for women. Of those men and women who engaged in household duties at all, women spent about 2.57 hours on them each day in 2014, a decrease of 9 minutes over 11 years. Over the same period, men's contributions have remained intransigent: In 2003 they spent 2.1 hours a day on housework, while in 2014 it was 2.11 hours. (On a positive note, more men seem to be into cooking.)
> 
> The lack of movement is stunning when one considers everything else that's happened during the intervening period: Women now make up almost half of the U.S. labor force; there was, and is again, a viable female presidential candidate in Hillary Clinton; there are women leading the Federal Reserve and the International Monetary Fund. In four out of 10 households with children, women are the sole or primary breadwinner.
> 
> Women in the U.S. Still Do Way More Housework Than Men - Bloomberg


Looks like this study was based on "traditional" "women's work". 

Did they take into account "traditional" "men's work" when they averaged it out? 

I think that's the only way it could be a reasonably honest survey result.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Have you all been hanging out in the red pill thread getting angrier and angrier without making your well thought out opposing positions? 

There must be a reason for all of this anger. I don't see it here. Maybe it's just that we Are so far apart that we will not be able to compromise? I didn't think that was true, but the more I read here, the more truth I think there is to that thought.


----------



## turnera

2ntnuf said:


> Ele, say what you want, but there was a hell of a lot more to that post than just what she left there. She went back and deleted or back spaced on a lot more than what is there.


Which post of mine are you referring to?


----------



## john117

EleGirl said:


> Yep, and men are not the only ones who go in early and get home late. Where I have worked for the last 35 years, both men and women do this.


I go in late and leave early . Italian banking hours...


----------



## BetrayedDad

Red Sonja said:


> the wife who never said "no" and initiated


Please tell us where we can find more of your kind....


----------



## EleGirl

wilson said:


> Not wanting sex with someone who is treating you poorly? Totally understandable.


Yes it is. Yet some people don’t seem to understand that.


wilson said:


> Not wanting sex at all with anyone and not having any type of sexual desire at all? Not very understandable.


Some people, men and women, temporarily or permanently lose their sex drive for issues such as low hormones, illness, etc.


wilson said:


> What's often confusing is how a woman's sex drive will go completely to zero. Not just for her H, who she perceives (rightly or wrongly) as not worthy, but no sexual desire at all. It is extremely rare for a man to not have any sexual desire. He may not want sex with his W, but he will still have the urge and will satisfy it in some way. But often for women, there just is no urge at all.


For a healthy woman, if she loses her sex drive for her husband because of martial problems, she does not completely lose her sex drive. She just does not want sex with her husband. Why you think this means that she loses her sex drive completely curious.

No, you are wrong, for women they are just not expressing the urge in their marriage. They will often find that urge again either in an affair or after they leave their husband. Don’t forget that women are trained from a very early age to control their sex drive. We are told that we are dirty, slvts, wh0res, etc etc if we dare to have a sexual thought. So, while today most of us reject that, we still manage to control our drive when appropriate.

Society tells men there is little to no reason to control their sex drive, or their acting on it. It is certainly not superior to reject his spouse sexually and then go outside of the marriage for sex. (No good when a woman does that either)



wilson said:


> Even in your example, it's not clear why a woman in that scenario would have no sexual desire. A man will generally have sexual urges regardless of what's going on in his life or how his partner is treating him. But we commonly see that a woman's desire can go to zero across the board because of a variety of external factors..


I did not say that she would have no sexual desire at all. I said that she would not want sex with her husband who is not treating her well No we don’t see women’s sexual desire going to zero across the board if her husband mistreats her. . I’m not sure why you interpret that to mean her having no sexual desire or urges.



wilson said:


> I think as for the topic of this thread, I think often W start viewing their nice, honest, hardworking H more as a brother than a lover. Once that switch gets flipped that he's a brother, it's not surprising that she doesn't feel sexual towards him. People generally aren't attracted towards their siblings regardless of how attractive or desirable they are. Something in our heads makes us not desire siblings. Something similar happens in W's heads to make them feel like having sex with their H is like doing it with their brother.


I think that assuming that this is the only, or the major, scenario is faulty thinking. Generally, if you ask the wife she will tell you that it’s a lot more than this. Or that she now sees him as a brother or a son because he stopped courting her, stopped spending time with her, and basically he turned into a brother or a son.


----------



## turnera

2ntnuf said:


> Oh, I get it now. You women attacking me assume that I'm one of these types who doesn't do it because it's women's work?
> 
> It all makes sense, now. Silly me for thinking that you were all progressive women.
> 
> I'll try to keep this sexist attitude in mind when I read angry posts to men.


Women are likely to have this opinion because, progressive or not, odds are good that if you go into any house in America right now, the woman will be the one who sweeps, vacuums, and dusts; who washes and hangs up and puts away laundry; who picks up trash and dirty dishes; makes lunches for the kids, takes kids to the doctor and calls in sick when the kids can't go to school; and fills the dishwasher, even if both spouses work full time. It has nothing to do with being a progressive woman and everything to do with it being in our DNA to nest and need a decent home to raise our kids in; if he's not going to do what he says he will do (or if he never considers doing any of it in the first place), the woman will step in and make sure the home/people are cared for. And I think men more often than not subconsciously know this (being raised by a woman) and act accordingly. I truly think most men truly aren't aware of how much work goes into keeping a house going because, well, they never had to. Some woman was always there doing it. And when he was a bachelor, he likely cleaned once a month and was happy about it.

But women usually don't go into a marriage nowadays expecting to be this guy's replacement mother, after all the wooing and dating and promises, and she finds herself working full time and then coming home and STILL having to work every day...it gets old.

Does he chop wood once a month? Maybe. Mow once a week? Sure. Change oil twice a year? Sure. Carry a heavy chair over there? Absolutely. 

But day in and day out, having to be the one who picks up the dirty dishes, loads the dishwasher, puts away the dishes, usually shops for and cooks the meals, bathes the baby, and everything else I mentioned above, BEFORE she can go to bed, while he's been on his computer, playing with the kids, watching tv, or playing video games, day in and day out...you can see how a woman's view can become skewed.

I used to tell my husband 'if you want to get so much sex, why don't you try to lesson my load a little bit so I'm not working 9 hours and then coming home and working 5 more? Maybe then I wouldn't be too tired for it.' So I can always tell now, when he wants some, he'll actually pick up his dirty glass and walk three steps and dump it on the counter. See? I helped. lol


----------



## EllisRedding

Maricha75 said:


> As I stated, it didn't make sense to have someone say they had never heard of an 8 hour workday. That was the only motivation for it. You use examples from your own experience, just as I did. Neither is judgmental, but both cannot understand something we have not, ourselves, experienced. You have only experienced 10 hour workdays (roughly). I have only experienced 8 hour workdays (or less). And the *only* reason high school was brought in was because *if* you had worked in high school, you would have experienced what I described... at least, if you were under the age of 18. But, you didn't so you answered my question about how it is even possible you never experienced that.
> 
> But, even though you said you disagreed with me on one point, you kind of agreed, too. You stated that even when you get home from work, you don't expect your wife to do everything for you. This says that you *do* help with some of the work... even in small amounts. My understanding was that you initially implied that if one gets home earlier than the other, then that one should have to do all the work. All, not just some. And, I apologize if I misunderstood your position on that. But, when you said that you don't expect your wife to wait on you, that tells me that even though you got home later, you still pitched in.
> 
> But, like I said, you write from your experience and I write from mine. In my experience, which is limited to 8 hour days or less, the one who gets home later also goes in later, as NS stated. And, in that case, there is no reason that it wouldn't be a reasonable expectation to share household duties *equally*.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I think you took my 8 hour workday comment too literally lol (then again, I am rather sarcastic  ). Of course I have heard of 8 hour workdays (i.e. 9-5), it was just something I never worked so that is why I equated it to the boogyman. I didn't mean literally I have never heard of such a thing  . As I mentioned in response to NS, working late definitely does not imply that one goes into work late as well (heck, I wish that was true but not even close).

Correct as well, I am in no way advocating not helping out at home. My point on the whole hours thing was that if you are just looking purely at the hours spent on "housework" in a given day, the person who is home earlier for those days will more likely rack up more hours (especially if there is a wider gap between when each gets home) . When my W went part time she had some hours as 7-3:30pm. This meant she would be home at 4:30pm with the kids. I wouldn't get home until 7pm. Unless she decided she was going to do nothing with them until I got home so we could have "equal" hours, obviously this meant she was spending time making them dinner, cleaning up, homework. When I got home I did would I could (typically down a quick shake for dinner so I could help get the kids bathe if needed, and then try to spend time with them and my W before everyone went to bed). It is not like she was keeping tab and when the weekend comes she tells me how many hours I need to make up. 

So for example, if you used myself and my W as a data point, the hours would be skewed towards her. At face value based on some of the comments here, they would conclude that my W must have married some sort of man child, what other reason could there be. I am looking at the data points from the Labor Dept and saying that there can be many different variables that account for the gap in hours. Some of that is undoubtedly due to men kicking their feet up and doing the minimal amount necessary b/c they expect the woman to do it, but I don't believe that accounts for the full picture.


----------



## turnera

Originally Posted by wilson
I think as for the topic of this thread, I think often W start viewing their nice, honest, hardworking H more as a brother than a lover. Once that switch gets flipped that he's a brother, it's not surprising that she doesn't feel sexual towards him. People generally aren't attracted towards their siblings regardless of how attractive or desirable they are. Something in our heads makes us not desire siblings. Something similar happens in W's heads to make them feel like having sex with their H is like doing it with their brother.

Originally posted by Ele
I think that assuming that this is the only, or the major, scenario is faulty thinking. Generally, if you ask the wife she will tell you that it’s a lot more than this. Or that she now sees him as a brother or a son because he stopped courting her, stopped spending time with her, and basically he turned into a brother or a son.

Let's remember the lust chemicals leave our bodies by around year 5 of a relationship, so all we have left is communication and commitment. And either ignorance over what holds a marriage together or a desire to make it stay good. And of course, there's all the dysfunctional couples.

Those who know how to sustain love, who read Harley's books and others, who are safe to talk to so the other is always openly communicating, who know that they have to work at the marriage and spend 10-15 hours a week together to keep the passion going...those people are going to be the ones to emulate.


----------



## 2ntnuf

john117 said:


> I go in late and leave early . Italian banking hours...


Why did I expect you to post something opposite like that? :laugh:


----------



## EleGirl

2ntnuf said:


> Ele ....
> 
> Of course I know that men are expected to do their share. Of course I know that never works out. Of course I know it will never seem fair to one or both partners, at times. Sometimes, there will always be one partner who feels slighted.
> 
> If a couple can't talk about it and work it out, if you're unable to handle the work load that you have, no matter what is the cause, get a divorce.
> 
> Why hold it in till you can't stand to be around him? Why not make a change? It seems like from your response, you waited too long and got so angry, it still bugs you.


I brought up my pats situation to make a point. The point is that the blanket statement that is almost always made to guys that they need to stop doing the dishes, etc, because it’s not going to get them sex is the WRONG thing to just tell every guy. And yes I’ve never seen a guy told that he needs to step up on do his fair share by another guy on TAM. Sometimes women actually do have valid complaints and that lead them to have so much resentment that they don’t want sex with their husband.

Am I still upset about the way my ex was? When I really think about it, sure it bothers me. 

Why didn’t I leave as sooner? Well, it’s hard to know when to give up on a marriage. We see that all the time here. Plus, I felt that I had to wait until his children were out of high school because I was not willing to put children out on the street. And yes they would have been living on the street had I not supported them in every way that parents support children. Neither of their parents did squat for those kids.


2ntnuf said:


> I know some folks who have said they used to do things, but their wife was so nurturing that she started doing things he used to do and slowly drove him away from doing much housework. He ended up just working on things outside, in the basement, garage, the mechanical maintenance on the doors and windows and painting.
> 
> His wife told all her friends and family that he didn't do a darn thing to help her. It's kind of true, and it isn't. Much of what he did(to help with the laundry, cleaning, etc.), she just complained was inferior work and she would do it again to make it right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One guy told me he had so many complaints from his wife, he decided to sit down and talk with her, initiating the conversation himself, because all he heard was insinuations from her friends and family.
> 
> When they sat down and talked, she was so vague about what she wanted him to do, he decided to ask if he could make a list of all things needing done and split them evenly, but with compromises, right down the middle.
> 
> She got angry as hell and told him she'd do it herself. Then, she complained more.
> 
> This led to her feeling disrespected, used as a maid, and unappreciated. She acted like she was repulsed by his touch.
> 
> If there is no discussion and compromise, how do they both feel like they are a part of the machinations of the family and household? Is it best to divorce?
> 
> If you and everyone else think I do not understand, you are very mistaken. I do, much more than you know. As I said above, there is at least a paragraph missing from turnera's post. She went off a little and I knew it. I just wondered how common these feelings are among women, since I've heard similar things before.
> 
> My comments weren't meant to offend turnera.


Sure, there are as many different types of situations. That’s why no one solution fits them all. And they are all not cause by women. And all not caused by men. Sometimes they are caused by one person, sometimes both spouses are the problem. Communication is the key. Then if the couple cannot come to a compromise, then maybe the divorce.

But this nonsense of telling all men in sexless marriages to stop doing anything to help around the house is, well, nonsense since we don’t really know the situation.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I get what you and others are saying. 

You are all correct and we men are all wrong. Well, maybe not all of you women or us men. 

See how that reads when I back off? 

It reads like the truth is the first part, then I think about not offending everyone, and decide to say something a bit less controversial.

Just say what you mean, like you did in that post. You were angry and let it out. That's okay. It didn't offend me. 

It just made me ask tough questions that it seems most of you have decided you can't address, but instead defend your positions with controlled retreats and accusations that we know are all perfectly correct and honest from both sides of a relationship. 

Would you like me to take this apart and respond to each point I think is important for you to consider or would you like to let it go? 

I'll do whatever you want. 



turnera said:


> Women are likely to have this opinion because, progressive or not, odds are good that if you go into any house in America right now, the woman will be the one who sweeps, vacuums, and dusts; who washes and hangs up and puts away laundry; who picks up trash and dirty dishes; makes lunches for the kids, takes kids to the doctor and calls in sick when the kids can't go to school; and fills the dishwasher, even if both spouses work full time. It has nothing to do with being a progressive woman and everything to do with it being in our DNA to nest and need a decent home to raise our kids in; if he's not going to do what he says he will do (or if he never considers doing any of it in the first place), the woman will step in and make sure the home/people are cared for. And I think men more often than not subconsciously know this (being raised by a woman) and act accordingly. I truly think most men truly aren't aware of how much work goes into keeping a house going because, well, they never had to. Some woman was always there doing it. And when he was a bachelor, he likely cleaned once a month and was happy about it.
> 
> But women usually don't go into a marriage nowadays expecting to be this guy's replacement mother, after all the wooing and dating and promises, and she finds herself working full time and then coming home and STILL having to work every day...it gets old.
> 
> Does he chop wood once a month? Maybe. Mow once a week? Sure. Change oil twice a year? Sure. Carry a heavy chair over there? Absolutely.
> 
> But day in and day out, having to be the one who picks up the dirty dishes, loads the dishwasher, puts away the dishes, usually shops for and cooks the meals, bathes the baby, and everything else I mentioned above, BEFORE she can go to bed, while he's been on his computer, playing with the kids, watching tv, or playing video games, day in and day out...you can see how a woman's view can become skewed.
> 
> I used to tell my husband 'if you want to get so much sex, why don't you try to lesson my load a little bit so I'm not working 9 hours and then coming home and working 5 more? Maybe then I wouldn't be too tired for it.' So I can always tell now, when he wants some, he'll actually pick up his dirty glass and walk three steps and dump it on the counter. See? I helped. lol


----------



## 2ntnuf

EleGirl said:


> I brought up my pats situation to make a point.


I know you did. That's the same reason I posted what I did...to make my point. 






EleGirl said:


> The point is that the blanket statement *that is almost always made to guys *that they need to stop doing the dishes, etc, because it’s not going to get them sex is the WRONG thing to just tell every guy.


It is wrong to tell men to quit helping around the house because their wives are not giving them sex. They should be telling them to divorce. They should be telling them they'd have to do housework of their own after divorce, or hire a professional maid service. 

Tell me. Who told men they should quit helping out around the house when their wife rejects them for sex? 

Can you copy and paste posts from these men so we can narrow this down and not blame everyone? Can we address those particular men's comments? 

I have not read any and am not defending them. I am under the belief that I am defending myself! 

If you've all decided to move the goal posts, again, please let me know. 

These circular arguments are disappointing from you and many other women here I usually find enlightening. 




EleGirl said:


> And yes I’ve *never* seen a guy told that he needs to step up on do his fair share by another guy on TAM.


Edit: I read your post here above incorrectly. I have to make changes to what I posted.ee.

Edit: Never and always are absolutes. Absolutes are inherently wrong. You may not remember those posts. I doubt you've.....never.....seen them. 

I've seen it too. Edit: (I've actually seen them.) Actually,<---remove for edit.ee. 


I've seen it enough to remember that those posts are here on TAM somewhere. I cannot remember the opposite.

Admittedly, my memory is not what it used to be, and, I tend to forget those ridiculous posts like the ones you mentioned, because I don't take them seriously. 

Do I place to much faith in the intelligence of the average woman reading TAM posts? I didn't think so, but maybe I'm wrong? 




EleGirl said:


> Sometimes women actually do have valid complaints and that lead them to have so much resentment that they don’t want sex with their husband.


And you are telling me in particular this, why? 



EleGirl said:


> Am I still upset about the way my ex was? When I really think about it, sure it bothers me.


Of course you are. Forgiveness has been discussed here many times. I think there is a thread right now. I've started threads on forgiveness.

It's damn tough to forgive, sometimes. 





EleGirl said:


> Why didn’t I leave as sooner? Well, it’s hard to know when to give up on a marriage. We see that all the time here. Plus, I felt that I had to wait until his children were out of high school because I was not willing to put children out on the street. And yes they would have been living on the street had I not supported them in every way that parents support children. Neither of their parents did squat for those kids.


You'd think they'd be able to get help from the state and federal governments to be able to live. They can in my state. Was this in Cali or NM? 

You'd think that you would be willing to divorce, and still offer to take the children to buy clothes, food, etc., as a custodial parent might for children of their own. 

Basically, you are telling me they were your own and your responsibility to care for, even though you were not their biological mother. 

Alternately, you could have reported him to child services and had them put in a foster home and adopt them yourself. Then, you'd have them and wouldn't have to allow him in their lives. 

Seems as though he was that bad, by your own comments. 





EleGirl said:


> Sure, there are as many different types of situations. That’s why no one solution fits them all. And they are all not cause by women.


Who, may I ask, said that there was only one solution? Who said all situations are caused by women? 

Please post what comment(s) you believe said that.(from this thread)





EleGirl said:


> And all not caused by men.


I honestly don't remember anyone claiming any of that in a post. Show me the post, please, so I have a chance to understand your points.

So far, I see opinions based on assumptions, but no real evidence(from this thread). 




EleGirl said:


> Sometimes they are caused by one person, sometimes both spouses are the problem. Communication is the key. Then if the couple cannot come to a compromise, then maybe the divorce.


This is just a "parrot" of what I posted. It's nothing new and (it's) redundant. 





EleGirl said:


> But this nonsense of telling all men in sexless marriages to stop doing anything to help around the house is, well, nonsense since we don’t really know the situation.


Again...Please post those comments you believe led you to this conclusion. Let me see where you are getting these ideas.(from this thread) 

See, I can do the same as you. I can give you negative opinions of women all day long, if I want. 

I can tell you how things are terrible and women are no good in one area or another and many are this way. I can tell you how why they do what they do and believe what they do.

I'm not a woman, so it's about as useless as what you posted here without evidence, context, and clarification.


----------



## turnera

2ntnuf said:


> You are all correct and we men are all wrong. Well, maybe not all of you women or us men. See how that reads when I back off?
> 
> It reads like the truth is the first part, then I think about not offending everyone, and decide to say something a bit less controversial.


You're describing how people here, when called out, will say 'ok, yeah, so not EVERY man is a luddite.' Works both ways. It's human nature, we all do it. So what? Doesn't make the experiences behind the statements any less true.



2ntnuf said:


> Just say what you mean, like you did in that post. You were angry and let it out. That's okay. It didn't offend me.


You didn't answer my question as to which post you were referring to, so I still don't know what you're talking about. I saw that I revised #585, but that's just because I added the last sentence. And it was in response to john, not you.



2ntnuf said:


> It just made me ask tough questions that it seems most of you have decided you can't address, but instead defend your positions with controlled retreats and accusations that we know are all perfectly correct and honest from both sides of a relationship.
> 
> Would you like me to take this apart and respond to each point I think is important for you to consider or would you like to let it go?
> 
> I'll do whatever you want.


What questions? And please, be my guest.


----------



## NobodySpecial

turnera said:


> Women are likely to have this opinion because, progressive or not, odds are good that if you go into any house in America right now, the woman will be the one who sweeps, vacuums, and dusts; who washes and hangs up and puts away laundry; who picks up trash and dirty dishes; makes lunches for the kids, takes kids to the doctor and calls in sick when the kids can't go to school; and fills the dishwasher, even if both spouses work full time.


I need to be the first to say that this can happen. But does not always happen. Luckily my husband is not like that at all... anymore.



> It has nothing to do with being a progressive woman and everything to do with it being in our DNA to nest and need a decent home to raise our kids in;


I missed that gene! But really, everyone in this family helps maintain it. Kids do as much as we do. In the summer, way more.



> if he's not going to do what he says he will do (or if he never considers doing any of it in the first place), the woman will step in and make sure the home/people are cared for. And I think men more often than not subconsciously know this (being raised by a woman) and act accordingly. I truly think most men truly aren't aware of how much work goes into keeping a house going because, well, they never had to. Some woman was always there doing it. And when he was a bachelor, he likely cleaned once a month and was happy about it.
> 
> But women usually don't go into a marriage nowadays expecting to be this guy's replacement mother, after all the wooing and dating and promises, and she finds herself working full time and then coming home and STILL having to work every day...it gets old.
> 
> Does he chop wood once a month? Maybe. Mow once a week? Sure. Change oil twice a year? Sure. Carry a heavy chair over there? Absolutely.
> 
> But day in and day out, having to be the one who picks up the dirty dishes, loads the dishwasher, puts away the dishes, usually shops for and cooks the meals, bathes the baby, and everything else I mentioned above, BEFORE she can go to bed, while he's been on his computer, playing with the kids, watching tv, or playing video games, day in and day out...you can see how a woman's view can become skewed.
> 
> I used to tell my husband 'if you want to get so much sex, why don't you try to lesson my load a little bit so I'm not working 9 hours and then coming home and working 5 more? Maybe then I wouldn't be too tired for it.' So I can always tell now, when he wants some, he'll actually pick up his dirty glass and walk three steps and dump it on the counter. See? I helped. lol


Your husband is an *******. He is not worth comparing anyone else to.


----------



## turnera

IDK, of the ten or so closest friends we have, I can name only ONE of those guys who does any real housework. And that's because his wife has a disease and doesn't get out of bed much. We talk about it and they pretty much to a man sheepishly agree that they let their wives take care of it. "I mow!" they're most likely to say.

My H is a product of his parents. His mom was living in his house when I moved in at 20. When she moved out three years later, the house fell apart. I had no idea she had been going around behind him picking up everything he dropped. And then I was too weak to take a stand. *shrug*


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> You don't have women in non-teaching and nursing jobs? You don't have male teachers and nurses? That is just weird.


OK, here's Hannah Rosin (feminist) on Slate:

Gender pay gap: The familiar line that ?women make 77 cents to every man?s dollar? simply isn?t accurate.

Highlight:

"Is it that women are choosing lower-paying professions or that our country values women’s professions less? And why do women work fewer hours? Is this all discrimination or, as economist Claudia Goldin likes to say, also a result of “rational choices” women make about how they want to conduct their lives."

Also, check out the Freakonomics link.

Women may well be choosing lesser paying jobs because they prioritize family over work and because they require less hours.

If you choose lower stress jobs and jobs that require fewer hours, it might make sense that you end up doing 3.22 more hours per week doing housework.

What I find weird is that people find it so easy to ignore pretty obvious things like this. 

If your husband is an entitled prince who doesn't pull his weight around the house, tell him "I have no intention of staying in a marriage where......."


----------



## turnera

I was in a bank today, and you know how banks are shrinking these days, cutting corners, etc. So I'm sitting in this bank, and I realize that, of the 8 employees, every single one was a black female. And my first thought was of course they are; the bank cut what it pays, cut their hours, and black women really get the short end of the stick when it comes to opportunities, so they're willing to accept $2 less an hour and no benefits; the rest of the people probably turned the jobs down. And who wins? The bank's shareholders.


----------



## EleGirl

2ntnuf said:


> I'm not a woman, so it's about as useless as what you posted here without evidence, context, and clarification.


Let me be clear. My posts on the topic started as a reply to some men on this thread and the RP thread that men get less sex when they do housework. I was making the point that as a blanket statement it's nonsense. Because sometimes, more housework and helping around the house (which includes yard work, mowing, etc) is exactly what is needed.

But what happened, is what often happens, the more people twist what is said, the more I (and others) tried to make our point... that in some marriages the woman is not just a cold b!tch, there are martial problems leading to low or no sex and it has to be addressed.

Well, I made the mistake of trying to explain over and over in many different ways. I give up. I made my point. If you and others did not get it, then I don't know what to say.

I'm not going to search for the hundreds of times on TAM where I have read men telling other men who want more sex to not listen to their wife, to not try to find out why she does not want sex... to just alpha up and leave her. For one thing the search function on TAM is broken and the admins don't seem to care to look into fixing it. 

I'm done on this thread. YOu all win, women are just cold b!tches who don't want sex.


----------



## tech-novelist

EleGirl said:


> I'm done on this thread. YOu all win, women are just cold b!tches who don't want sex.


I haven't seen anyone say that. Of course, I may have missed it...


----------



## no name

wilson said:


> Not wanting sex with someone who is treating you poorly? Totally understandable.
> 
> 
> 
> Not wanting sex at all with anyone and not having any type of sexual desire at all? Not very understandable.
> 
> 
> 
> What's often confusing is how a woman's sex drive will go completely to zero. Not just for her H, who she perceives (rightly or wrongly) as not worthy, but no sexual desire at all. It is extremely rare for a man to not have any sexual desire. He may not want sex with his W, but he will still have the urge and will satisfy it in some way. But often for women, there just is no urge at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Even in your example, it's not clear why a woman in that scenario would have no sexual desire. A man will generally have sexual urges regardless of what's going on in his life or how his partner is treating him. But we commonly see that a woman's desire can go to zero across the board because of a variety of external factors.
> 
> 
> 
> I think as for the topic of this thread, I think often W start viewing their nice, honest, hardworking H more as a brother than a lover. Once that switch gets flipped that he's a brother, it's not surprising that she doesn't feel sexual towards him. People generally aren't attracted towards their siblings regardless of how attractive or desirable they are. Something in our heads makes us not desire siblings. Something similar happens in W's heads to make them feel like having sex with their H is like doing it with their brother.




You know what there just seems to be too much generalisation about this topic. ' using such words as ' extremely rare, generally ' you and others actually don't know , I think it's better to just talk about your own feelings and experience thus not assume a majority of the population feel the exact way, unless it's backed up by facts such as statistics, otherwise it's just an assumption. I've seen this over and over again. 


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## EleGirl

tech-novelist said:


> I haven't seen anyone say that. Of course, I may have missed it...


According to a lot of the posters on this thread, women (all women) use sex as a power play.


----------



## tech-novelist

EleGirl said:


> According to a lot of the posters on this thread, women (all women) use sex as a power play.


Could you provide a post number? I may have missed such a post, considering the length of the thread.


----------



## no name

EleGirl said:


> Let me be clear. My posts on the topic started as a reply to some men on this thread and the RP thread that men get less sex when they do housework. I was making the point that as a blanket statement it's nonsense. Because sometimes, more housework and helping around the house (which includes yard work, mowing, etc) is exactly what is needed.
> 
> 
> 
> But what happened, is what often happens, the more people twist what is said, the more I (and others) tried to make our point... that in some marriages the woman is not just a cold b!tch, there are martial problems leading to low or no sex and it has to be addressed.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I made the mistake of trying to explain over and over in many different ways. I give up. I made my point. If you and others did not get it, then I don't know what to say.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not going to search for the hundreds of times on TAM where I have read men telling other men who want more sex to not listen to their wife, to not try to find out why she does not want sex... to just alpha up and leave her. For one thing the search function on TAM is broken and the admins don't seem to care to look into fixing it.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm done on this thread. YOu all win, women are just cold b!tches who don't want sex.




I have to say I agree with ele here, I have seen posts by men that advice to leave their wife instead of listening to their wives because of not doing it enough. That's not to say that ALL men think and agree with this , just stating that I have also read these posts multiple times. It's stating that this line of thought exists, thus NOT assuming that ALL men do, which I think is where the frustration may come from within this thread. I also don't agree with this line of thought either. 


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## Starstarfish

> IMO there is a big difference between saying "some" and "many", that is all I am trying to draw a distinction from.


Why is making a statement about the behavior of "some" or "many" always met with #notallmen, but men on TAM feel free to make all kinds of statements implying that it applies unilaterally to all or most women and if women in anyway speak out about it we are told we are "having a fit."


----------



## no name

Starstarfish said:


> Why is making a statement about the behavior of "some" or "many" always met with #notallmen, but men on TAM feel free to make all kinds of statements implying that it applies unilaterally to all or most women and if women in anyway speak out about it we are told we are "having a fit."




Yeah in a perfect TAM it shouldn't be done by either gender. I also have been accused by a man of having a ' lack of empathy' because I had a very different and I think positive perspective other than the 'leave your wife, if she's not putting out' opinion. 


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## Maricha75

Starstarfish said:


> Why is making a statement about the behavior of "some" or "many" always met with #notallmen, but men on TAM feel free to make all kinds of statements implying that it applies unilaterally to all or most women and if women in anyway speak out about it we are told we are "having a fit."


That's ok. I made the "mistake" of saying I know some things that not all men do, and I was met with the opposite reaction... from some men. But, that was one of those notoriously heated discussions. If you say something against the "norm", it gets met with resistance.

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## 2ntnuf

EleGirl said:


> Let me be clear. My posts on the topic started as a reply to some men on this thread and *the RP thread that men get less sex when they do housework*. I was making the point that as a blanket statement it's nonsense. Because sometimes, more housework and helping around the house (which includes yard work, mowing, etc) is exactly what is needed.


That's exactly what I thought happened. You and others brought over anger from the other thread where you didn't feel like you made you point. You found something I posted you didn't really agree with, and tried to get even with me for someone elses comments. 

Make that point about the blanket statement over there in the RP thread. I stayed away from it. 

More housework, which you say here, but have not proven to be included in that study you selected and posted the results for, may or may not help with what need? 





EleGirl said:


> But what happened, is what often happens, the more people twist what is said, the more I (and others) tried to make our point... that in some marriages the woman is not just a cold b!tch, there are martial problems leading to low or no sex and it has to be addressed.


Ele, I didn't say anyone was "just a cold b!tch". In fact, I am on your side to some extent. I won't lie. I don't agree with everything. That's my right. Isn't it? 

I posted my story about problems in my second marriage with sex. If you have questions or concerns relating to what I posted, I'd be glad to try to answer them. 

I actually agree that chores should be shared. Read my post about my own second marriage. I think that would explain my position of the past, before I ever knew TAM existed. 

I didn't know about TAM until, a month or so before I came here. I heard someone talking about it with another person. After thinking a while and realizing I had no clue what to do and desperately needed help, I decided to give this place a try. 

I'm not disappointed. I've learned plenty, even from this exchange with you and all the other angry women here. 



EleGirl said:


> Well, I made the mistake of trying to explain over and over in many different ways. I give up. I made my point. If you and others did not get it, then I don't know what to say.


I'll ask this again. Please show me, by quoting my post that says to you that I don't get what you are saying.

I think you are projecting. I think you are misunderstanding. I think you are angry and trying to find an easy target. I've been that so far. I guess I stepped right in it by not following that RP thread? 

I can't figure out what I've posted that makes you believe I do not get what you are saying?





EleGirl said:


> I'm not going to search for the hundreds of times on TAM where I have read men telling other men who want more sex to not listen to their wife, to not try to find out why she does not want sex... to just alpha up and leave her.


This is not what you claimed in the last few posts in this thread. This is coming from inside you, not me. 

I asked you to post just six. You won't even post one. So, if there weren't any to access easily from the RP thread that has caused you to be so vitriolic, I guess I will not be able to believe you. 

You claimed these things about men, not me. Giving up is not like you. I think you can't back your words up with facts, and you realize it. 




EleGirl said:


> For one thing the search function on TAM is broken and the admins don't seem to care to look into fixing it.


You claimed much of this anger came from the RP thread. You said men over there were saying these things. You can't find those without a search function? 





EleGirl said:


> I'm done on this thread. YOu all win, women are just cold b!tches who don't want sex.



This is within you. It is a belief that men are at fault for hating women because they have no control over them. Most men don't want to control their wives. It's too difficult. It has no rewards. It's looney and would take too much effort.

Why would these lazy men, as you seem to think they are, put out that kind of effort? It doesn't make sense. 

You are way too intelligent for this, Ele. You can give your reasons with posts you think back them. It isn't shameful to be wrong. I'm wrong more times than right. I've made posts this very day that I wonder about. 

What the hell? Do you think you have to be perfect? I'll still like you, and respect you, whatever you decide. I won't be walked on, though.

I hope you change your mind. It's been good sparring with you.


----------



## no name

Maricha75 said:


> That's ok. I made the "mistake" of saying I know some things that not all men do, and I was met with the opposite reaction... from some men. But, that was one of those notoriously heated discussions. If you say something against the "norm", it gets met with resistance.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk




Yeah but I also think that if more care was taken in how an opinion is written it may actually avoid this. It is a statement, that I have read posts that use words that assume' a general population feels the same they do . ' In fact , I think one should just use ' I feel' and their own experiences instead. Using assumptive language ends up offending others that don't agree with it. 


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----------



## EleGirl

tech-novelist said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to a lot of the posters on this thread, women (all women) use sex as a power play.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen anyone say that. Of course, I may have missed it...
Click to expand...

Below are only a few of the posts from this thread in which this was said. Most if not all of these were liked by other male posters. And these were taken from the start of the thread, before it started to spiral to even worse.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...pulsed-their-husbands-touch.html#post16322930 


jb02157 said:


> I think they do that to get their way, probably thinking if they take away sex from the marriage then you will do what ever they say. My wife does this to, although she's the one who gained all the weight and I should be repulsed by her touch. I'm used to being married to a refuser, I don't want anything from her anyway.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...lsed-their-husbands-touch-5.html#post16332634


nirvana said:


> This seems to be the right answer. A lot of women realize that the 'sex' chip is in their hands and men are weaker on this. Once their quota of making babies is complete, then the urge for sex is much reduced. For men, this is not the case, but most men find it hard to cheat.
> 
> The women then begin to dole out sex only occasionally and use that as a negotiation device. You take me out, you buy me this or that, and then I might feel like having sex with you.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...lsed-their-husbands-touch-5.html#post16334338


nirvana said:


> It's amazing how hard it is for men today to get reasonable sex with their own wives. All those hoops to jump through, all those checklists with 100s of items to cross off, all those requirements to fulfill. In all cases it is deemed to be the man's fault that he is not doing something that makes the wife want to have sex.
> No wonder so many men are looking to cheat.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...lsed-their-husbands-touch-5.html#post16334722


jb02157 said:


> I agree with your whole post, however, your list has one glaring mistake in it. The absolute #1 thing that attracts women is
> 
> MONEY
> 
> The one thing that causes the most arguments in a marriage is money. If a guy can supply his wife/girlfriend with an unending supply of money there would be no problems. To get their men to spend money on them or on what they want, they use sex as a means of control.



http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...sed-their-husbands-touch-24.html#post16359938


EllisRedding said:


> Where this gets tricky, it does to an extent imply that in order for a guy to have sex with his SO he must first do A, B, C, etc... Some guys will see this, and whether or not they feel like they are entering into a covert contract, will do A, B, C and then don't understand when there are no changes in sex. Likewise, this puts the women in control (just using your example here, not necessarily trying to be gender specific) where she can add on as many "requirements" as she wants as long as the guy will dance through hoops for the end goal. So either the guy gets walked all over, just b/c he hopes to have a sexual relationship with the one person he is supposed to have such relationship , the marriage goes sexless, infidelity, divorce, etc...



http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...sed-their-husbands-touch-27.html#post16367842


jerry123 said:


> All depends on the state of ones marriage.
> 
> I bet a lot of women use sex as a control method because they can. Or in another word, the husband goes along with iat.
> 
> It's a teach/learn thing.
> 
> Years go by and sex dwindles. The husband gets frustrated and says what's going on. The wife says you don't cook/clean/help with kids.
> The husband cooks/cleans/helps with kids and his wife drip feeds him sex once a month. Turns out it's not the lack of help from husband but the lack of respect for the now even more betaized husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Talk About Marriage - Reply to Topic



nirvana said:


> All this "emotional needs" and stuff is just nonsense. Women say it but don't mean it and probably laugh behind our backs. What they like is money (as you say) and power in a man. Success. But not an a-hole. Rather, not too much of an ahole that he becomes hard to live with. A small amount is okay.
> 
> No women will admit to this!



http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...sed-their-husbands-touch-27.html#post16368170



nirvana said:


> You said it well, Jerry. But I would not go as far as to call them all betaized men. Rather the women are the ones at fault. What does the man do? Either "rapes" his wife. Or goes and has sex with someone else. You cannot squeeze water our of a faucet which is not connected to a supply line. I really believe that after a woman had all the kids she wants, she loses interest in sex. Maybe nature makes her that way. But men always want sex as long as they are able to physically. That is when we see this situation and women play games by claiming these silly excuses and blaming men again (it's very much in fashion to blame men for everything)
> 
> Marriage as it is today hurts men and helps women. When a man is refused sex for weeks together on silly excuses, what can he do? Go watch porn or pleasure himself. After that what? He wants love, romance, sex with a woman. . He cannot just kick out the wife because he has kids with her and he loves his sweet kids. It's not easy. So he tries to do a balancing act by having an affair. That way he can get what he craves and his wife won't give him and he gets to be with his kids.
> 
> All the moralists might frown, but this is a real situation, and I personally think that if a wife does what jerry very logically explains above, she deserves it when her husband has an affair. What was she expecting??
> 
> I see a lot of frustrated 40+ men in my circle talk about dreamily about some hot chick they saw somewhere or complain about their wives and how grumpy they are all the time. We do not discuss sex life but I am sure that is where it all starts. These wives get so engrossed in their own projects of kids and career and friends that they neglect the husband. Many won't know if he was dead and would find out when the paychecks stopped.


----------



## MrsHolland

2ntnuf said:


> Exactly! Each would have to take care of themselves if alone.
> 
> *
> You said many women get married to have someone to help them out. This has nothing to do with being alone?????*
> 
> 
> I guess many men and women are pretty far apart on things?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many women often end up with a man/child. I'm not following.
> 
> *It is still a fact today that women do more housework even when they work outside the house. A quick google will bring up many articles on this.*
> 
> 
> :circle:


Confused about what? Many women and men want the same thing, a partner to share life with, what is so confusing. Sadly what many want and what they get are two different things.


----------



## MrsHolland

john117 said:


> And men never ends up with a woman child equivalent?


No one is saying this, show a post that does.


----------



## no name

2nutnf - do you realise you are 'sparing' with a very wise moderator of TAM? 


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----------



## EleGirl

no name said:


> 2nutnf - do you realise you are 'sparing' with a very wise moderator of TAM?


We are ok. I'm posting on this thread like anyone else.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Anyone want to defend themselves? Now is your chance. If you believe Elegirl is correct, then you need to apologize. If you were venting, just say so. If you were just posting off the top of your head, hoping for some answers from someone, anyone, then say so. 

I think you were misunderstood, but those posts sure do look to the untrained or the unaware, that she is a least somewhat correct. 

@noname,

Ele isn't a wimp. She knows me well enough to know when I'm just being a smart alek and when I am trying to get to the bottom of things. I'd say she takes me seriously, as I intended. 

Don't underestimate her intelligence.


----------



## 2ntnuf

MrsHolland said:


> Confused about what? Many women and men want the same thing, a partner to share life with, what is so confusing. Sadly what many want and what they get are two different things.


I checked back and can't find where I posted that. 

There is a post where I copied what you said and placed a question mark at the end of the sentence, in order to let you know that I didn't understand what you posted, which is directly above it. 

Those were your words, as far as I can tell. Maybe just your assumption? Go check and post the whole quote because I can't even discuss this with you, if I can't even find the post. 

You may have read it incorrectly.


----------



## 2ntnuf

turnera said:


> You're describing how people here, when called out, will say 'ok, yeah, so not EVERY man is a luddite.' Works both ways. It's human nature, we all do it. So what? Doesn't make the experiences behind the statements any less true.
> 
> You didn't answer my question as to which post you were referring to, so I still don't know what you're talking about. I saw that I revised #585, but that's just because I added the last sentence. And it was in response to john, not you.
> 
> 
> What questions? *And please, be my guest*.


One at a time. I have to get to bed soon, anyway. I don't think tomorrow night is all that good. I have to go somewhere after work, but we'll see.


----------



## 2ntnuf

@MrsHolland,

Is this it right here? I colored my responses "royal blue" to separate your posts. I've also separated your posts from mine a little with the "enter" key. 

I believe I got all of it. I had to copy and paste it here, or I would have lost your posts.

I hope that's acceptable.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsHolland View Post 
To help out with what?


Exactly! Each would have to take care of themselves if alone. 



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsHolland View Post 
Being married is more work for *many women*, they *often end up with a man/child*.


I guess many men and women are pretty far apart on things? 



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsHolland View Post 
Men and women are not that far apart, most of us want a partner to share life with.


Many women often end up with a man/child. I'm not following. 


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsHolland View Post ;
How is that different to what men want?

:circle: 


Now, which post(s) were you confused about?

ps.: I also made some text bold font to show where I got my response from. Some of my responses were(due to considerations) from a previous post or two. I'll have to go get them, if you still have issues with what I posted.


----------



## MrsHolland

2ntnuf said:


> I checked back and can't find where I posted that.
> 
> There is a post where I copied what you said and placed a question mark at the end of the sentence, in order to let you know that I didn't understand what you posted, which is directly above it.
> 
> Those were your words, as far as I can tell. Maybe just your assumption? Go check and post the whole quote because I can't even discuss this with you, if I can't even find the post.
> 
> You may have read it incorrectly.





> Originally Posted by 2ntnuf View Post
> ................................
> 
> 
> *Is it possible the reason women want to get married is to have someone around to help out? I guess that is expected,* but it seems like this kind of response would mean that's all that is wanted. I think men and women are very far apart on things. It's sad.


----------



## tech-novelist

EleGirl said:


> Below are only a few of the posts from this thread in which this was said. Most if not all of these were liked by other male posters. And these were taken from the start of the thread, before it started to spiral to even worse.


All the ones I read said "women" or "some women", not "all women".

Shouldn't we just assume that "women" means "some women", if the poster doesn't say "all women"? I assume that for women posting negative comments about "men".


----------



## Maricha75

no name said:


> Yeah but I also think that if more care was taken in how an opinion is written it may actually avoid this. It is a statement, that I have read posts that use words that assume' a general population feels the same they do . ' In fact , I think one should just use ' I feel' and their own experiences instead. Using assumptive language ends up offending others that don't agree with it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It isn't just regarding opinions, though. It also happens when statements of fact are made.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## no name

2ntnuf said:


> Anyone want to defend themselves? Now is your chance. If you believe Elegirl is correct, then you need to apologize. If you were venting, just say so. If you were just posting off the top of your head, hoping for some answers from someone, anyone, then say so.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you were misunderstood, but those posts sure do look to the untrained or the unaware, that she is a least somewhat correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @noname,
> 
> 
> 
> Ele isn't a wimp. She knows me well enough to know when I'm just being a smart alek and when I am trying to get to the bottom of things. I'd say she takes me seriously, as I intended.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't underestimate her intelligence.




Hmmm , u r the one assuming I am
' underestimating her intelligence' I am not. 


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----------



## turnera

2ntnuf said:


> One at a time. I have to get to bed soon, anyway. I don't think tomorrow night is all that good. I have to go somewhere after work, but we'll see.


Whatever, dude. Probably won't read it anyway, as this seems to have turned into a crusade for you.

I hope whatever's got your goat passes soon, so you can chillax.


----------



## citygirl4344

You know there are days where I think.."ffs why do I do everything around here". I admit that.
Someone at work the other day was complaining about how her husband doesn't lift one finger to help.
She said city you must agree and I said I know what you mean. But that got me thinking. What does my H actually do. He might not do the standard housework that needs to be done but in reality he does a hell of a a lot. Who drops the kids off at daycare/school. Who cooks most of the meals. Who does the grocery shopping (Ick). Who does the outside work. Who runs the kids to all sports etc. All H. 
Maybe we need redefine what work is? Yes I do the laundry, housework and general chores and yes we both work outside of the home. But if I sit down and think about it, H contributes just as much as me but in different ways.
I don't know...yes there are some men out there that do nothing. As there are women out there that do nothing as well and the husband picks up the slack. But when you complain about not doing anything are they doing other things that isn't in the general definition of "true housework".

Just my two cents.


Sent from my iPhone


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## EllisRedding

tech-novelist said:


> All the ones I read said "women" or "some women", not "all women".
> 
> Shouldn't we just assume that "women" means "some women", if the poster doesn't say "all women"? I assume that for women posting negative comments about "men".


Meh, I wouldn't look into it any further. If someone wants to dig through pages and pages of posts, picking out ones that "support" their stance (even though doing so allows the posts to be taken out of context since the underlying conversation at the time is glossed over), so be it. At this point no sense in butting heads over and having words/posts twisted any further.


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## EllisRedding

citygirl4344 said:


> You know there are days where I think.."ffs why do I do everything around here". I admit that.
> Someone at work the other day was complaining about how her husband doesn't lift one finger to help.
> She said city you must agree and I said I know what you mean. But that got me thinking. What does my H actually do. He might not do the standard housework that needs to be done but in reality he does a hell of a a lot. Who drops the kids off at daycare/school. Who cooks most of the meals. Who does the grocery shopping (Ick). Who does the outside work. Who runs the kids to all sports etc. All H.
> Maybe we need redefine what work is? Yes I do the laundry, housework and general chores and yes we both work outside of the home. But if I sit down and think about it, H contributes just as much as me but in different ways.
> I don't know...yes there are some men out there that do nothing. As there are women out there that do nothing as well and the husband picks up the slack. But when you complain about not doing anything are they doing other things that isn't in the general definition of "true housework".
> 
> Just my two cents.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


Agreed CG, I was actually wondering as well, what fits under the "housework" umbrella. Every Saturday during the spring I am out of the house from about 8am until well after 3pm running around with the kids for their sports. Sunday's, since I am the one who gets up early, I get the boys ready and take them to church for their religion class. Does this qualify as housework, IMO, it does. However, ultimately I think it is important that both people in the relationship are on the same page as far as expectations and what role each person will play in achieving those.


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## NobodySpecial

This thread has devolved, once again, into I am butt sore that sometimes a man might be criticized.


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## jld

citygirl4344 said:


> You know there are days where I think.."ffs why do I do everything around here". I admit that.
> Someone at work the other day was complaining about how her husband doesn't lift one finger to help.
> She said city you must agree and I said I know what you mean. But that got me thinking. What does my H actually do. He might not do the standard housework that needs to be done but in reality he does a hell of a a lot. Who drops the kids off at daycare/school. Who cooks most of the meals. Who does the grocery shopping (Ick). Who does the outside work. Who runs the kids to all sports etc. All H.
> Maybe we need redefine what work is? Yes I do the laundry, housework and general chores and yes we both work outside of the home. But if I sit down and think about it, H contributes just as much as me but in different ways.
> I don't know...yes there are some men out there that do nothing. As there are women out there that do nothing as well and the husband picks up the slack. But when you complain about not doing anything are they doing other things that isn't in the general definition of "true housework".
> 
> Just my two cents.


Do you know women who do nothing?

I ask, because while I have heard these claims on TAM, I have never actually known any, myself. 

I have, however, known men who expected to be served at home. I have also known men who did help somewhat, but still seemed to find plenty of free time to pursue their hobbies. Their wives, otoh, seemed to put the needs of the family first, consistently. Maybe it is just my corner of the world.

In our home, we each have specialized skills that we contribute to the household. We both help in the general areas, too. Pitching in to do whatever needs to be done is pretty much how we roll.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## citygirl4344

@jld
I know one wife who doesn't do much but I wouldn't say doesn't do anything.
I've heard the stories on TAM as well.
I think there are lazy people out there and it doesn't depend on gender at all. Some people just don't want to work.
I would like to think that people get their own routine with the spouse each contributing so that the other one feels like they don't carry the load. I know it doesn't happen with everyone but one would hope that it does with a substantial portion.

I have never known a man who has expected to be served at home. If my husband expected that he'd be out the door. I'm nobody's maid.
We both find time to Pursue our hobbies and if I ever felt that I couldn't because of family needs or house needs being put first I'd talk to H about it and he'd do the same...as wth the majority of my friends.
People get taken advantage of because they don't open their mouth and let the spouse know how they feel...in many aspects. No one is a mind reader.



Sent from my iPhone


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## john117

Do nothing or do nothing useful?

On whose terms?

Quality standards?

My wife will spend hours "cleaning" but not stuff that really needs to be cleaned... More hours pruning, again, stuff that only needs infrequent pruning. All that is "work".

But moving two girls to / from college in 48 hours is not "work".


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## citygirl4344

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed CG, I was actually wondering as well, what fits under the "housework" umbrella. Every Saturday during the spring I am out of the house from about 8am until well after 3pm running around with the kids for their sports. Sunday's, since I am the one who gets up early, I get the boys ready and take them to church for their religion class. Does this qualify as housework, IMO, it does. However, ultimately I think it is important that both people in the relationship are on the same page as far as expectations and what role each person will play in achieving those.




See to me anything you do to better the home and marriage should be considered work. It is work to get kids up, fed, dressed out the door for a class. 
Just like its work to clean the bathroom and do laundry. Just because you don't see a tangible output doesn't mean it is less worthy.



Sent from my iPhone


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## turnera

citygirl4344 said:


> I have never known a man who has expected to be served at home.


*waves hand here* Of course I'm old and back then, that's how we were raised. We literally were raised thinking if you're not married by 21, nobody will want you. That's how much things have changed.

When I cook, I bring his plate to him, as an act of service. When he cooks, he tells me to come fix my plate. Time to fix that, I think. 

Sad story, aside from his cheating, the reason I broke up with my ex-fiance is that, just before, I was at his parents' house where he still lived (he was in college, I had just started college), for dinner. The mom was serving everyone and never sat down until everyone started digging in. Just as she sat down, my ex took his fork and knife and pounded them on the table like in the movies and said "More milk!" and she jumped up off her chair and ran to get him some more milk. I just sat there, stunned, and thought, this is what I'll have to do?

Sad because I ended up marrying a guy just like him.


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## turnera

john117 said:


> Do nothing or do nothing useful?
> 
> On whose terms?
> 
> Quality standards?
> 
> My wife will spend hours "cleaning" but not stuff that really needs to be cleaned... More hours pruning, again, stuff that only needs infrequent pruning. All that is "work".
> 
> But moving two girls to / from college in 48 hours is not "work".


Again, this is all about communication. If the two people AGREE on what is to be done, then the two can TALK about what's getting done. That's why I always push for the poster board and an agreement, up front. In fact, I even suggest using a 'weighted' list; for example, making breakfast takes 15 minutes; mowing the lawn may take an hour. So mowing counts as four 15-minute-segment chores each week.


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## NobodySpecial

citygirl4344 said:


> I have never known a man who has expected to be served at home.


Mine did. Not because he was a jerk, but because he just did not really know any better. His mother did EVERYTHING. He really just could not see what went on to make a house work. He sort of just did not think about it. If he did what I asked him to do 10% of the time, he thought he was all good. 

For me, I went to a usenet group not unlike this one. (Though un-moderated which makes for a completely different experience!) They taught me effective limit setting. If they had not, I would not have been able to break through his experience based understanding into understanding my world. And my resentment would have grown and grown. And we would be divorced. But not after my grumpily not wanting to be anywhere near him.


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## NobodySpecial

turnera said:


> Again, this is all about communication. If the two people AGREE on what is to be done, then the two can TALK about what's getting done. That's why I always push for the poster board and an agreement, up front. In fact, I even suggest using a 'weighted' list; for example, making breakfast takes 15 minutes; mowing the lawn may take an hour. So mowing counts as four 15-minute-segment chores each week.


So everyone is big on communicating. But talking is about the least effective form of communication out there. ACTIONS communicate meaning WAY better than talking. My two cents.


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## EllisRedding

turnera said:


> Again, this is all about communication. If the two people AGREE on what is to be done, then the two can TALK about what's getting done. That's why I always push for the *poster board* and an agreement, up front. In fact, I even suggest using a 'weighted' list; for example, making breakfast takes 15 minutes; mowing the lawn may take an hour. So mowing counts as four 15-minute-segment chores each week.


Haha, this got me thinking about having something like the good ole science project board with all the household work listed out!


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## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> Haha, this got me thinking about having something like the good ole science project board with all the household work listed out!


To be entirely fair, some women who are pissy (oh, like I was) about their husband's contribution need to understand (like I didn't) that you can want your spouse TO do something or you can want HOW s/he does something but not both. You don't get to say that you need more housework done AND require his or her standards to be the same as yours.


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## naiveonedave

NobodySpecial said:


> To be entirely fair, some women who are pissy (oh, like I was) about their husband's contribution need to understand (like I didn't) that you can want your spouse TO do something or you can want HOW s/he does something but not both. You don't get to say that you need more housework done AND require his or her standards to be the same as yours.


This is my W to a tee. Wish she would learn this.


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## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> To be entirely fair, some women who are pissy (oh, like I was) about their husband's contribution need to understand (like I didn't) that you can want your spouse TO do something or you can want HOW s/he does something but not both. You don't get to say that you need more housework done AND require his or her standards to be the same as yours.


Agreed, that is one question I would always have. Is he/she not doing something or is he/she not doing something to your standards. Now granted, some standards can actually be legit, but hopefully there is an understanding about the difference.


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## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed, that is one question I would always have. Is he/she not doing something or is he/she not doing something to your standards. Now granted, some standards can actually be legit, but hopefully there is an understanding about the difference.


It has more to do with working together as a team. When people are holding up their own "standards" and insisting on remaining pissy, they are not working as a team.


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## john117

turnera said:


> Again, this is all about communication. If the two people AGREE on what is to be done, then the two can TALK about what's getting done. That's why I always push for the poster board and an agreement, up front. In fact, I even suggest using a 'weighted' list; for example, making breakfast takes 15 minutes; mowing the lawn may take an hour. So mowing counts as four 15-minute-segment chores each week.


Consider the environmental aspects - an hour sorting laundry in 74F indoors vs an hour mowing the yard at 90F...

Scheduling chores is like scheduling sex in my view. Works for some, but it's not viable for others. 

The quality standards part is the main time waster. If you haven't spent a weekend pressure washing every algae molecule out of a stone patio or removing every blade of weed from the grass you can't appreciate the meaning of "good enough"...


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## turnera

NobodySpecial said:


> So everyone is big on communicating. But talking is about the least effective form of communication out there. ACTIONS communicate meaning WAY better than talking. My two cents.


See, when I learned about Authoritative Parenting, which I had used to raise my DD26 without even realizing it, it all clicked for me. Because it works with everyone (without a mental illness).
The first step is communication and, with adults, agreement (kids don't have a say in mom's rules, lol). The second step is agreement about, or at least discussion about, what happens when that agreement/compromise isn't held up. The third step is unemotional logical action to counteract the lack of standing up to the agreement. To me, the unemotional part is the key. It keeps things safe for both parties.

That's why I push so hard now for boundaries/consequences. They are what YOU have and what YOU do, to protect yourself.


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## Starstarfish

> Consider the environmental aspects - an hour sorting laundry in 74F indoors vs an hour mowing the yard at 90F...


Could have taught those children of yours one to mow the lawn and one to fold the laundry and avoided the whole issue. 



> The quality standards part is the main time waster. If you haven't spent a weekend pressure washing every algae molecule out of a stone patio or removing every blade of weed from the grass you can't appreciate the meaning of "good enough"...


Whose choice was this and what was the "punishment" for not complying to this level of standard? Cause I would have "noped" all over that.


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## turnera

john117 said:


> Consider the environmental aspects - an hour sorting laundry in 74F indoors vs an hour mowing the yard at 90F...
> 
> Scheduling chores is like scheduling sex in my view. Works for some, but it's not viable for others.
> 
> The quality standards part is the main time waster. If you haven't spent a weekend pressure washing every algae molecule out of a stone patio or removing every blade of weed from the grass you can't appreciate the meaning of "good enough"...


meh, do what we do: mow at 7:30 at night when it's cooled off.

And I didn't say to get down into the weeds about WHEN chores would be done. I said that you each agree to be responsible for your chores and an agreed-upon counteraction if it doesn't happen. 

For example, if the wife and husband work, and the wife agrees that she will vacuum, but she never does, it behooves the husband to take $50 out of the community fund (which she will now not have access to) and pay someone else to vacuum. She gripes? *shrug* You didn't carry out what you agreed to do - see, you signed the chart right here - and it's gotta get done, and I'm not going to take on a chore you agreed to do since I'm already doing mine, so the money to get it done is coming out of your play money. You want to keep the money? There's the vacuum.


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## NobodySpecial

turnera said:


> See, when I learned about Authoritative Parenting, which I had used to raise my DD26 without even realizing it, it all clicked for me. Because it works with everyone (without a mental illness).
> The first step is communication and, with adults, *agreement *(kids don't have a say in mom's rules, lol).


I don't agree with this. Agreement with my husband would have looked like him just completely ignoring me, retaining his lack of motivation to SEE since there were no personally compelling reasons to see. It was MY boundary. No agreement necessary. This is how it is going to be.






> The second step is agreement about, or at least discussion about, what happens when that agreement/compromise isn't held up.


Discussion. I would call it more like notification!



> The third step is unemotional logical action to counteract the lack of standing up to the agreement.


I agree with unemotional.


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## turnera

NobodySpecial said:


> To be entirely fair, some women who are pissy (oh, like I was) about their husband's contribution need to understand (like I didn't) that you can want your spouse TO do something or you can want HOW s/he does something but not both. You don't get to say that you need more housework done AND require his or her standards to be the same as yours.


I used to mow our lawn. My H would often come up behind me and remow areas that weren't 'good enough' - straight lines, etc. I told him to stop doing it, but he couldn't help himself. The last time I mowed, I caught him going back over my mowing, so I just stood there and watched. He finally came over and I said 'you just bought yourself a new chore' and I went inside. Haven't mowed since.


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## NobodySpecial

turnera said:


> I used to mow our lawn. My H would often come up behind me and remow areas that weren't 'good enough' - straight lines, etc. I told him to stop doing it, but he couldn't help himself. The last time I mowed, I caught him going back over my mowing, so I just stood there and watched. He finally came over and I said 'you just bought yourself a new chore' and I went inside. Haven't mowed since.


You guys sound like you really hate each other. Can't you file for bankruptcy and just move on?


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## wilson

I think all this talk about chores is just creating a fake straw man to argue against. I'm sure there are lazy men who don't work and treat their wives like maids who do no housework, throw laundry on the floor, leave sandwiches on the coffee table, etc. However, they are the minority. To base all these discussions on the equality of housework is a waste of time.

In general, if a man stayed home and did 100% of the housework, yardwork and childcare, he would still want sex. The desire for sex is unaffected by those external things. 

There are many threads here from good men who have tried to improve sex by doing more and more of the housework and childcare, making more money, and taking stress away from their wives. In most cases, that doesn't really improve the situation. She may be more willing to go along with some duty sex, but it doesn't seem to be the case that she starts actually desiring sex more.

One thing that women are fooling themselves about is by justifying not having sex. Regardless of the reason, if you're not having sex at least 3-4x per month, your marriage is in trouble. There's not enough glue to hold it together without sex. People can slog it through for decades, but without regular sex, it won't be a happy marriage. So whatever justification you have for not having sex (whether you're a man or woman), it's poisoning the marriage. If you're the one who's limiting the sex, you better be trying to make it up in other areas of the relationship if you want the relationship to last.


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## john117

Starstarfish said:


> Could have taught those children of yours one to mow the lawn and one to fold the laundry and avoided the whole issue.
> 
> Whose choice was this and what was the "punishment" for not complying to this level of standard? Cause I would have "noped" all over that.


The kids earned nearly $200k between them in academic merit scholarships, not a bad rate of return compared to doing chores.

No punishment, just endless B!tching every time a spec of algae or weed is found. 

Today wifey found a few minor scratches on the kitchen counter wood trim and immediately blamed the cat. I explained it's not the cat (I repaired cat scratches in drywall and know what they look like). No luck. So we will spend $1k to repair normal wear and tear damage after 15 years living there "because of the cat". 

That's the kind of issue I'm divorcing about, incidentally. her magical thinking and inability to think rationally


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## Starstarfish

> The kids earned nearly $200k between them in academic merit scholarships, not a bad rate of return compared to doing chores.


See when you post memes about how you want to be considered just an average American, these are the kinds of things that make that difficult. Anytime it's suggested that your fully adult children do something for themselves we have to have amounts of money casually thrown out. To prove how much they are "worth" or something, I don't know. 

Yes, we all wish we could have gotten hundreds of thousands of dollars of merit scholarships to attend Ivy league. Because 15 minutes of folding the laundry evidently would be just way too hard for them. Which I honestly have a hard time believing. A student in my school got a full ride to Yale last year - PS, she also had a job and did chores.  So ...

If you were saving that much money not putting your children into college, why not hire a groundskeeper? 



> So we will spend $1k to repair normal wear and tear damage after 15 years living there "because of the cat".


Why? Hope about just say no? If you are divorcing her anyway, at this point what is her b!tching going to do to you?


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## john117

My kids' biggest achievement is growing up normal in a marital maelstrom... I did not want them to do chores, it's that simple. To me it's a waste of time - same as part time summer work. It's not pride or worth, rather, it's a matter of allocation of resources (time and energy) to where it will do the most good. 

The older learned cooking and baking off YouTube, and is quite good at it. The younger hopefully will learn.

No money for a housekeeper incidentally - I'm saving for med school tuition beginning next fall .


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## NobodySpecial

Starstarfish said:


> Yes, *we all wish* we could have gotten hundreds of thousands of dollars of merit scholarships to attend Ivy league. Because 15 minutes of folding the laundry evidently would be just way too hard for them.



I don't. Not at the expense of the basic skills of being a human.


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## john117

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't. Not at the expense of the basic skills of being a human.


Let's just say I did my share of chores growing up poor in a village and hated it. I don't think my humanity suffered any because I could not cook a soufle... People adapt. It's a lot easier to teach a kid how to cook a decent meal than to teach them calculus. 

Priorities...


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## EleGirl

citygirl4344 said:


> You know there are days where I think.."ffs why do I do everything around here". I admit that.
> Someone at work the other day was complaining about how her husband doesn't lift one finger to help.
> 
> She said city you must agree and I said I know what you mean. But that got me thinking. What does my H actually do. He might not do the standard housework that needs to be done but in reality he does a hell of a a lot. Who drops the kids off at daycare/school. Who cooks most of the meals. Who does the grocery shopping (Ick). Who does the outside work. Who runs the kids to all sports etc. All H.
> Maybe we need redefine what work is? Yes I do the laundry, housework and general chores and yes we both work outside of the home. But if I sit down and think about it, H contributes just as much as me but in different ways.
> 
> I don't know...yes there are some men out there that do nothing. As there are women out there that do nothing as well and the husband picks up the slack. But when you complain about not doing anything are they doing other things that isn't in the general definition of "true housework".


Of course anyone who feels upset because they think that they are over burdened in running a household needs to step back and make sure that they are not just being pissy. They need to took at the entire picture and make sure that they are not just feeling sorry for themselves. And if they do honestly find an inequity, they need to address it with their spouse. Hopefully there is good communication in the marriage and their spouse will work with them to fix it.

But... the situation that I was talking about is the one in which there is truly an inequity.. are real and large inequity and where all attempted communication with the spouse who is doing little to nothing will not work to fix it. 

But it seems that almost every response to my posts has been to give a list of scenarios to prove that such inequities do not exist in marriage and thus a woman is just using it as an excuse for anger, resentment and maybe not wanting sex with a husband who literally does nothing.

Yes there have been some posters who get it. But there have also been more who keep pushing the idea that it's all in the woman's head and being used to control/manipulate her husband. (yes that happens somethings. Often, however, there is a real problem.)


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## NobodySpecial

john117 said:


> Let's just say I did my share of chores growing up poor in a village and* hated it.* I don't think my humanity suffered any because I could not cook a soufle... People adapt. It's a lot easier to teach a kid how to cook a decent meal than to teach them calculus.
> 
> Priorities...


I cannot imagine HOW my poor kids manage to do their share of the work AND learn calculus?! How did *I* manage it. I am not talking about learning to cook. I am talking about learning to CONTRIBUTE. The importance of contribution. And I honestly don't care if they hate it. No one loves doing chores. But it is a part of life. And I, for one, and not going to send my kids off into the world to be as ****ish as my husband inadvertently was and expect their spouses to deal with that.


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## john117

Their contribution was to get the grades - that's all. 

Mission accomplished


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## EleGirl

citygirl4344 said:


> @jld
> I know one wife who doesn't do much but I wouldn't say doesn't do anything.
> I've heard the stories on TAM as well.
> I think there are lazy people out there and it doesn't depend on gender at all. Some people just don't want to work.
> I would like to think that people get their own routine with the spouse each contributing so that the other one feels like they don't carry the load. I know it doesn't happen with everyone but one would hope that it does with a substantial portion.
> 
> I have never known a man who has expected to be served at home. If my husband expected that he'd be out the door. I'm nobody's maid.
> 
> We both find time to Pursue our hobbies and if I ever felt that I couldn't because of family needs or house needs being put first I'd talk to H about it and he'd do the same...as wth the majority of my friends.
> 
> *People get taken advantage of because they don't open their mouth and let the spouse know how they feel...in many aspects. No one is a mind reader*.


That is the case sometimes. However, there are plenty of times when a person who is taken advantage of speaks up and does not often. But they are ignored. Often times they are accused of nagging. And then in the end after a lot of speaking up, a lot of trying to get their spouse onboard, the only thing left is to file for divorce. By the time a divorce is file, the one who has not been listening is sitting there saying that they were blind sided.. they did not know that there was a real problem. But it's too late because their spouse is completely done with them and the marriage.


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## Starstarfish

> My kids' biggest achievement is growing up normal in a marital maelstrom... I did not want them to do chores, it's that simple. To me it's a waste of time - same as part time summer work. It's not pride or worth, rather, it's a matter of allocation of resources (time and energy) to where it will do the most good.


We'll have to agree to disagree about what constitutes "normal." I had a far less privileged and a pretty dysfunctional life and I'd rate myself pretty "normal" compared to some of the stuff people on TAM here post. 

And if they both studied 24/7 all summer and thus could never mow the lawn, awesome. But honestly, no I don't believe that's true. I think there's an implication that they are "better than that." You send them to the dorms with this assumption that other people will now pick up the slack for what you opted or refused to teach them or make them do. That's cool, obviously the "lesser" students or "the help" should do those things.



> It's a lot easier to teach a kid how to cook a decent meal than to teach them calculus.


It's not about what is easier or more difficult. 99% of people can live their entire lives and never need to understand or do calculus, even to have good paying respectable jobs. 



> Priorities...


I just think reading some of your posts, John, it's kind of easy to see that all of your problems in your marriage aren't your wife's fault despite you regularly showing how she's lazy and entitled. If people are only supposed to do things that directly benefit them, and other things are a waste of resources, I guess I don't understand why there's that gap that's probably what your wife feels about sex and whatever else is wrong between the two of you.

You both feel whatever the other person wants is a waste of time and not worth bothering with.

I just find it bothersome, ironic, and somewhat amusing that you'd then steam forward to giving your children that same attitude.


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> Do nothing or do nothing useful?
> 
> On whose terms?
> 
> Quality standards?
> 
> My wife will spend hours "cleaning" but not stuff that really needs to be cleaned... More hours pruning, again, stuff that only needs infrequent pruning. All that is "work".
> 
> But moving two girls to / from college in 48 hours is not "work".


Yes, we get that there are people like your wife.

Will agree that there are also some spouse that do nothing, or next to nothing, to help out with the home (inside and out, with the kids, etc.)?

Will you agree that is a man or woman complains to their spouse, a spouse who is leaving most or all of this type of work up to their spouse, that they need to pay attention and work with their spouse to fix it?


----------



## EleGirl

NobodySpecial said:


> It has more to do with working together as a team. When people are holding up their own "standards" and insisting on remaining pissy, they are not working as a team.


The standards thing can be interesting.

For example... does the dishes but then leaves the sink full of food scraps, dirty, and dirty water on the counters around the sink, etc. So yea, the dishes are done but now you have to clean the sink. Is that an incomplete job? Or is it a job to be accepted as ok because the dishes are in the dishwasher or dish rack?

Another example... cleaning the counter after dinner prep. Pushes everything to the back of the counter.. not putting away thinks like spices, dishes, even unused veggies... just pushing them to the back of the counter and whipping down whatever of the counter is showing. 

Both of these exmaples mean that someone has to come behind them and complete the job.


----------



## NobodySpecial

john117 said:


> Their contribution was to get the grades - that's all.


That is not a contribution. That is a gift to themselves.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EleGirl said:


> The standards thing can be interesting.
> 
> For example... does the dishes but then leaves the sink full of food scraps, dirty, and dirty water on the counters around the sink, etc. So yea, the dishes are done but now you have to clean the sink. Is that an incomplete job? Or is it a job to be accepted as ok because the dishes are in the dishwasher or dish rack?


Honestly, if the issue is not already and issue, no one cares. On balance, my DH does a ton. And this happens to be one of the things he does not do, clean the sink. Meh. I do it. What is the "job" measurement that determines if it is complete or not? There is no absolute, objective measure. It is all opinion. I don't get to determine that FOR HIM.

It's like once you notice someone is annoying, it is hard to UNnotice it, even if you want to. Once resentment sets in, all the little things add to it.


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> The kids earned nearly $200k between them in academic merit scholarships, not a bad rate of return compared to doing chores.
> 
> No punishment, just endless B!tching every time a spec of algae or weed is found.
> 
> Today wifey found a few minor scratches on the kitchen counter wood trim and immediately blamed the cat. I explained it's not the cat (I repaired cat scratches in drywall and know what they look like). No luck. So we will spend $1k to repair normal wear and tear damage after 15 years living there "because of the cat".
> 
> That's the kind of issue I'm divorcing about, incidentally. her magical thinking and inability to think rationally


She might be wrong about the cause of the scratches.

But isn't keeping things in good repair a good idea?


----------



## john117

EleGirl said:


> Yes, we get that there are people like your wife.
> 
> Will agree that there are also some spouse that do nothing, or next to nothing, to help out with the home (inside and out, with the kids, etc.)?
> 
> Will you agree that is a man or woman complains to their spouse, a spouse who is leaving most or all of this type of work up to their spouse, that they need to pay attention and work with their spouse to fix it?


For sure.


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## Maricha75

john117 said:


> Let's just say I did my share of chores growing up poor in a village and hated it. I don't think my humanity suffered any because I could not cook a soufle... People adapt. It's a lot easier to teach a kid how to cook a decent meal than to teach them calculus.
> 
> Priorities...


I hated chores, too. But they needed to be done. And they definitely prepared me for not having mom and dad around to do it all for me. It's better to make sure your kids have some sort of understanding of basic life skills than to do it all for them. Otherwise, it doesn't matter how much is paid for higher education, if they can't do a simple job to maintain basic standards of living.

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## Maricha75

john117 said:


> Their contribution was to get the grades - that's all.
> 
> Mission accomplished


... sad. They could have learned far more. 🙁

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## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> To be entirely fair, some women who are pissy (oh, like I was) about their husband's contribution need to understand (like I didn't) that you can want your spouse TO do something or you can want HOW s/he does something but not both. You don't get to say that you need more housework done AND require his or her standards to be the same as yours.


Very true.

I've heard that a source of problems can be the wife expecting her husband to do things her way, the husband always fails and eventually gives up. Ironically, this can be because the wife thinks of housework as her job and her husband is working for her.


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## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> Will you agree that is a man or woman complains to their spouse, a spouse who is leaving most or all of this type of work up to their spouse, that they need to pay attention and work with their spouse to fix it?


Of course. Just like a spouse should listen to their partner who is not happy with their sex life. The spouse should pay attention and work to fix it.

The problem in both cases is that the "good" spouse talks about it and the "bad" spouse doesn't take them seriously.

The only thing to do then is to say "I have no intention of staying in a marriage where......." and mean it.


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## john117

Maricha75 said:


> ... sad. They could have learned far more. 🙁
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Sad that you only see it from an American-centric point of view.


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## EleGirl

Buddy400 said:


> Of course. Just like a spouse should listen to their partner who is not happy with their sex life. The spouse should pay attention and work to fix it.
> 
> The problem in both cases is that the "good" spouse talks about it and the "bad" spouse doesn't take them seriously.
> 
> The only thing to do then is to say "I have no intention of staying in a marriage where......." and mean it.


“I think that sometimes, a person (male or female) has the right in marriage to withhold sex if their spouse is mistreating them. No one is obligated to have sex with a spouse if they are mistreated.

There are some obvious things, like verbal and physical abuse. There are some less obvious types of mistreatment like refusing to do a fairly equal about of the work it keep up a home (inside and out) and raise children.


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## Maricha75

john117 said:


> Sad that you only see it from an American-centric point of view.


Sorry, I don't see it as sad. It is far more important to be able to take care of yourself. You did them a disservice by not expecting them to learn how to take care of themselves. They won't always have mommy and daddy around. And they won't always have a roommate to push all the chores onto. And I feel bad for anyone who marries someone, whether a man or woman, who cannot wash dishes, wash his or her own laundry, or even sweep a floor. Basic life skills are inportant, John, no matter where you live in the world. That isn't an "American-centric" view. It's common sense.

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## EleGirl

john117 said:


> Sad that you only see it from an American-centric point of view.


John, who is going to the chores for them when they are on their own?


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## john117

Really? I can't recall a single buddy from Europe that had a part time job growing up. Not quite the same attitude here. There it's ok to live with your parents after 25. Here... 

And that's not counting the very well off to do with multiple servants in places my wife grew up, India, Saudi Arabia, et al.

People adapt and learn. I came to this country at age 22 without knowing most of the so called life skills. I think I did ok


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## karole

EleGirl said:


> John, who is going to the chores for them when they are on their own?


I'm sure John's kids will have jobs making tons of money and then marry men that also make tons of money so they won't have to be able to perform menial life tasks, they'll have people that do it for them. Unlike us poor, under-educated, under-achieving, hard-working Americans.


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## NobodySpecial

karole said:


> I'm sure John's kids will have jobs making tons of money and then marry men that also make tons of money so they won't have to be able to perform menial life tasks, they'll have people that do it for them. Unlike us poor, under-educated, under-achieving, hard-working Americans.


And then be royally fvcked when the next recession or depression happens.


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## turnera

john117 said:


> Sad that you only see it from an American-centric point of view.


I assume, then, that they are going to be rich enough wherever they will live with these Ivy league degrees that all the 'chores' around their homes will be taken care of by maids, servants, cooks, and nannies? You can live like a king in Thailand for $10,000.

If that's the case, fine. They don't NEED to know how to run a household. But if they're going to live someplace like America where their money won't go that far, they WILL at some point have to learn how to wash their own clothes. And if they marry someone else who does know how, and they then expect that person to do it FOR them, well, I feel sorry for that marriage.


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## Maricha75

john117 said:


> I think I did ok


But would your wife agree? You might have done well for yourself financially, but the more posts I see, I am inclined to disagree with you. 

See, you talk about growing up poor... very poor. Hated doing chores. Do you really think kids here enjoy chores? The vast majority do not like them at all. 

But here's my biggest problem. You say you are middle class. The more you post about how much money you spend on this and that, it just does not fit. 

Yes, I absolutely feel sorry for your daughters. Tbh, I kind of hope their roommates don't agree to just do all the work while they do nothing. I hope they ARE forced to pitch in and do the chores in the dorm room. And I hope they have to learn how to do their own laundry. Whether you wish to believe it or not, by sheltering them from doing *any* chores, you really have done them a disservice.


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## EleGirl

john117 said:


> Really? I can't recall a single buddy from Europe that had a part time job growing up. Not quite the same attitude here. There it's ok to live with your parents after 25. Here...
> 
> And that's not counting the very well off to do with multiple servants in places my wife grew up, India, Saudi Arabia, et al.
> 
> People adapt and learn. I came to this country at age 22 without knowing most of the so called life skills. I think I did ok


You said that you did chores when you were young at home and hated it. So apparently you did get some life skills.

Sure there are places where well off people have servants. I spent a good part of my youth in such places. We always had live-in servants and some who did not live it. But not all places have that. Here in the USA most people cannot afford it. 

You daughters might not be able to afford that when they are out on their own.

Do you and your wife have servants?


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## Maricha75

EleGirl said:


> You said that you did chores when you were young at home and hated it. So apparently you did get some life skills.
> 
> Sure there are places where well off people have servants. I spent a good part of my youth in such places. We always had live-in servants and some who did not live it. But not all places have that. Here in the USA most people cannot afford it.
> 
> You daughters might not be able to afford that when they are out on their own.
> 
> Do you and your wife have servants?


And what happens if the affluent lose all their money? If they never learned basic skills, how are they going to survive?

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## EllisRedding

I never did my own laundry growing up. First week of college I figured it out easily, been doing it ever since

:smthumbup:

Best of luck in here @john117 :grin2:


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## turnera

Haha. I keep envisioning this world, after everyone takes to texting and textspeak, and I, as a writer, who still knows how to construct a sentence, will become one of the most valuable people around, lol. I'll be the only left who knows how to record anything.


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## john117

karole said:


> I'm sure John's kids will have jobs making tons of money and then marry men that also make tons of money so they won't have to be able to perform menial life tasks, they'll have people that do it for them. Unlike us poor, under-educated, under-achieving, hard-working Americans.


Lolz...

Meanwhile in Norway....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...k-are-more-likely-to-divorce-study-finds.html


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## john117

NobodySpecial said:


> And then be royally fvcked when the next recession or depression happens.


The gallery is on a roll today.

The whole point of spending a decade in college is to have a fairly good chance of staying employed when bad times come.

I've worked for the same company for 31 years and have seen wave after wave of layoffs. I'm still here. 

Oh well.


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## Maricha75

john117 said:


> Lolz...
> 
> Meanwhile in Norway....
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...k-are-more-likely-to-divorce-study-finds.html




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## EleGirl

Maricha75 said:


> And what happens if the affluent lose all their money? If they never learned basic skills, how are they going to survive?


This happens and it's often a disaster for people who never had to lift a finger to take care of themselves.

Even though we usually had servants when we lived overseas, we usually did not when we lived overseas. My mom used to make us work with the maid to clean the house, dishes, etc. She said that we had to know how to do these things. My mom had 8 children... so the more hands to help the better anyway.


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## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> I never did my own laundry growing up. First week of college I figured it out easily, been doing it ever since
> 
> :smthumbup:
> 
> Best of luck in here @john117 :grin2:


I married my step kid's dad when my son was 10. My step kids were 10 & 12. I taught the 3 kids to do their own laundry. I never had to wash any of their clothing, sheets or towels. It was all their chore. If a 10 year old can do it, so can any adult.


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## Maricha75

EllisRedding said:


> I never did my own laundry growing up. First week of college I figured it out easily, been doing it ever since
> 
> :smthumbup:
> 
> Best of luck in here @john117 :grin2:


Roommate showed you how the washer and dryer worked? Or did you turn your underwear pink, first? 😉

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## EllisRedding

EleGirl said:


> I married my step kid's dad when my son was 10. My step kids were 10 & 12. I taught the 3 kids to do their own laundry. I never had to wash any of their clothing, sheets or towels. It was all their chore. If a 10 year old can do it, so can any adult.


Um, ok



Maricha75 said:


> Roommate showed you how the washer and dryer worked? Or did you turn your underwear pink, first? 😉
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Who said I wore underwear :wink2:


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## citygirl4344

EleGirl said:


> That is the case sometimes. However, there are plenty of times when a person who is taken advantage of speaks up and does not often. But they are ignored. Often times they are accused of nagging. And then in the end after a lot of speaking up, a lot of trying to get their spouse onboard, the only thing left is to file for divorce. By the time a divorce is file, the one who has not been listening is sitting there saying that they were blind sided.. they did not know that there was a real problem. But it's too late because their spouse is completely done with them and the marriage.



That is a huge breakdown is communication in a marriage. Yes the other spouse might be done but if when they spoke up and when were ignored initially they dealt with it perhaps it would not have escalated to what you describe.
I think if it becomes a situation like this then you had crappy communication before you got married and even crappier after.



Sent from my iPhone


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## john117

EleGirl said:


> You said that you did chores when you were young at home and hated it. So apparently you did get some life skills.
> 
> Sure there are places where well off people have servants. I spent a good part of my youth in such places. We always had live-in servants and some who did not live it. But not all places have that. Here in the USA most people cannot afford it.
> 
> You daughters might not be able to afford that when they are out on their own.
> 
> Do you and your wife have servants?


The chores were either farm or real work related when I was bored - not practical skills like change a tire. Both my parents worked and my brother decided to learn how to cook. He was an excellent cook btw. But number of chores is proportional to house size. We grew up in a 900 sq ft apartment, so no chores to speak of. 

I learned to do the American homeowner routine on the fly. And learned well. But at age 56+ I'm dead tired of screwing with the yard. No servants - ironically most of my fellow American McMansion residents have servants 

I still loved our apartment tho...


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## john117

Maricha75 said:


> And what happens if the affluent lose all their money? If they never learned basic skills, how are they going to survive?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Walmart! The horrors


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## citygirl4344

EleGirl said:


> The standards thing can be interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> For example... does the dishes but then leaves the sink full of food scraps, dirty, and dirty water on the counters around the sink, etc. So yea, the dishes are done but now you have to clean the sink. Is that an incomplete job? Or is it a job to be accepted as ok because the dishes are in the dishwasher or dish rack?
> 
> 
> 
> Another example... cleaning the counter after dinner prep. Pushes everything to the back of the counter.. not putting away thinks like spices, dishes, even unused veggies... just pushing them to the back of the counter and whipping down whatever of the counter is showing.
> 
> 
> 
> Both of these exmaples mean that someone has to come behind them and complete the job.




True...but not everyone does things the same way. This has nothing to do with the job done but the expectation of outcome.



Sent from my iPhone


----------



## Maricha75

john117 said:


> The gallery is on a roll today.
> 
> The whole point of spending a decade in college is to have a fairly good chance of staying employed when bad times come.
> 
> I've worked for the same company for 31 years and have seen wave after wave of layoffs. I'm still here.
> 
> Oh well.


We understand the point in spending that time in college. However, even you have to acknowledge that there are no guarantees. It is very easy to get a decent education and still sweep and mop the floor once a week. It doesn't take long, at all. Same with the other chores like dishes, vacuuming, cleaning the bathroom and kitchen. All of those can be done in under an hour in a smaller home or dorm. Laundry takes a little longer, but still not long at all.

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## Maricha75

john117 said:


> Walmart! The horrors


Coupled with having to do the housework. If only someone had taught them early on how to take care of themselves without relying on fairies, elves, and unicorns. 

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## EleGirl

citygirl4344 said:


> That is a huge breakdown is communication in a marriage. Yes the other spouse might be done but if when they spoke up and when were ignored initially they dealt with it perhaps it would not have escalated to what you describe.
> I think if it becomes a situation like this then you had crappy communication before you got married and even crappier after.


Communication before we married was great. Well except that he did not tell me what his plans were for after we married. Instead he behaved and talked about things in a way that seemed great. This happens a fair number of marriages. It's a kind of bait and switch.

I think that you are making a lot of assumptions though about lack of communication.

Person one says "I am upset because you are not doing anything at all to help run the household or raise your children. This needs to change. Can we sit down, come up with a chore list and divide things up. Or if you have another suggestion, we can talk about that.

Person 2: Ok you make up the chore list and I'll pick what I will do.

Person 1 makes up the chore list and person 2 never choses any chores and never does any. 

This scenario repeats, each time with more severity. Nothing ever changes. What are intermediate consequences or motivations that could be given over time when one person plays the game of always agreeing verbally but refusing any action except to ignore?

There are only two ways to deal with an absolute refusal by a spouse to take appropriate responsibility for running a household and raising children. 1) accept that person two has no intent to be a partner and share any responsibility. 2) divorce.

Person one communicates just fine. Person two is playing some kind of game. So you are right, the communication is not good because it takes two to communicate.


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## john117

Elves only. Fairies, not so much


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## EleGirl

citygirl4344 said:


> True...but not everyone does things the same way. This has nothing to do with the job done but the expectation of outcome.


If a person does the dishes and leaves the sink dirty. Then they are still leaving a good part of the task for their partner to do.

If a person paints a wall but only sloshes paint on splotches across the wall, then can they claim actually painted the wall? Someone still needs to come in behind them and finish the job.

We had a guy on TAM who said that his wife always nagged him even though he did the dishes often. Come to find out he only did the dishes and left the sink and counters a mess. After he did the dishes he would go watch TV. He used the 'I did it my way' excuse and then complained about his wife. 

As it turns out his wife, after putting the kids to bed, getting their stuff ready for the next day, etc. would go in the kitchen to make lunchs for the family for the next day. All this while the husband was watching TV. But because the husband did not clean the sink and counters, she had to do that before she could make lunches.

What the husband was doing was a typical passive aggressive move. How could she possible get angry with him because he did the dishes? Of course he ignored that she was doing 2-3 hours more work in the evening than he to include having the clean the sink and counters. He got to relax and watch TV .She did not.

Doing a job in a clearly half assed way is a typical passive aggressive thing that people do. Eventually it leads to the other person just giving up and doing it themselves.

When I think of the thing about do things their own way, and not getting all bent out of shape about my way, I think of things like setting the dishwasher. I don't care how things are stacked in the dishwasher. Sure I have my way. But if someone else puts them in the dish washer their own way... more power to them. At least the dishes are in the dish washer and running. It would be asinine for me to ***** at a person for not sorting the spoons and forks like I do when I set the dishwasher.

But if you do wash the dishes, don’t leave the sink all dirty, that’s a half assed job. That's not doing the job your way. That's just not finishing the job.


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## MrsHolland

john117 said:


> Their contribution was to get the grades - that's all.
> 
> Mission accomplished


Nothing like setting them up to continue with the dysfunction they have lived with while growing up.

It really isn't that hard to have A grade kids that also contribute to the household. Well in a healthy home that is.


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## Maricha75

john117 said:


> Elves only. Fairies, not so much


Yea... that's still a no. They need to do things themselves, without expecting everyone else to do it for them. 😡

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## john117

MrsHolland said:


> Nothing like setting them up to continue with the dysfunction they have lived with while growing up.
> 
> It really isn't that hard to have A grade kids that also contribute to the household. Well in a healthy home that is.


I think the go-away tiramisu cake DD1 made from scratch before leaving for Italy is proof positive that kids can and do learn


----------



## john117

Maricha75 said:


> Yea... that's still a no. They need to do things themselves, without expecting everyone else to do it for them. 😡
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## MrsHolland

john117 said:


> I think the go-away tiramisu cake DD1 made from scratch before leaving for Italy is proof positive that kids can and do learn


How is making a cake going to help them live in the real world?

People can be wealthy, intelligent and contribute to the running of a household.

Man, such low expectations of your kids is really setting them up for failure. Here, the kids are expected to get good grades (and do) but also function as part of a family. It really has little to do with the actual chore and everything to do with raising well rounded, contributing adults.


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## NobodySpecial

EleGirl said:


> There are only two ways to deal with an absolute refusal by a spouse to take appropriate responsibility for running a household and raising children. 1) accept that person two has no intent to be a partner and share any responsibility. 2) divorce.
> 
> Person one communicates just fine. Person two is playing some kind of game. So you are right, the communication is not good because it takes two to communicate.


So my experience was similar to yours. The thing I disagree with is that those are your only two options. Before going full D, an attempt at limit setting can help. Stop doing it. Let them SEE what that looks like. Yes, you have to live with it for a time. And it has to be with the willingness to end things if change is not made. But actions do speak louder than words.


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## john117

Sigh.

DD1 is an exceptional baker. No surprise a good part of her first paycheck went into a kitchenaid mixer . She learned to be thorough, deliberate, research, follow directions, adapt if needed (making lady fingers from scratch... Ouch) and learn from your mistakes. 

Those are skills far more useful than putting air in your tires. She learned that eventually as well. 

Her studio apartment was always immaculate, even with a cat roaming around. I had to walk her through things like cleaning the oven without harsh chemicals, but she's a quick learner.

Instead of teaching useless skills, I prefer to teach critical thinking skills and where to find information.


----------



## EleGirl

NobodySpecial said:


> So my experience was similar to yours. The thing I disagree with is that those are your only two options. Before going full D, an attempt at limit setting can help. Stop doing it. Let them SEE what that looks like. Yes, you have to live with it for a time. And it has to be with the willingness to end things if change is not made. But actions do speak louder than words.


Ok.. I did not write every single thing I tried. I did that.

There was a period of time that I did as little as possible. I let things pile up, stay dirty. I did not cook for him, only myself and the kids. He did not even notice.


----------



## MrsHolland

john117 said:


> Sigh.
> 
> DD1 is an exceptional baker. No surprise a good part of her first paycheck went into a kitchenaid mixer . She learned to be thorough, deliberate, research, follow directions, adapt if needed (making lady fingers from scratch... Ouch) and learn from your mistakes.
> 
> Those are skills far more useful than putting air in your tires. She learned that eventually as well.
> 
> Her studio apartment was always immaculate, even with a cat roaming around. I had to walk her through things like cleaning the oven without harsh chemicals, but she's a quick learner.
> 
> Instead of teaching useless skills, I prefer to teach critical thinking skills and where to find information.


You are missing the point. It is not about the particular chore, more about being a contributing, fully functioning adult and part of a team/family. It is very easy to do things well that people have a passion for like cooking, much harder to all of a sudden as an adult that has never had to contribute, to suddenly learn that to have a functioning, functional household, they have to participate.


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## NobodySpecial

john117 said:


> I think the go-away tiramisu cake DD1 made from scratch before leaving for Italy is proof positive that kids can and do learn


People can and do learn things at all ages. For me, it was a matter of ingraining an expectation of self sufficiency. Not so much learn to cook or clean stuff but of seeing and understanding what needs to be done. My daughter, this summer, would get up in the morning and see that the dishes were undone from the night before and just do them. Or grab a load of laundry because she needs clean clothes or we need clean towels and just do it. My son less so because he is a different sort. 

Despite needing more direction (his father's son), he still manages to make sure that the dogs get out for exercise and do their business. That he needs to clean his dishes up after he makes something to eat. Go to the store for groceries (walking distance). 

Since this has veered a little into parenting, I would say I would do no different. You live in this house. You participate. We all do. When I send them off to college or to marriage, it will be with the knowledge that this won't be difficult for them.


----------



## john117

MrsHolland said:


> You are missing the point. It is not about the particular chore, more about being a contributing, fully functioning adult and part of a team/family. It is very easy to do things well that people have a passion for like cooking, much harder to all of a sudden as an adult that has never had to contribute, to suddenly learn that to have a functioning, functional household, they have to participate.


They are contributing. 

This past summer DD1 worked at the design library at her school. Minimum wage. Initially she was upset having to work minimum wage. But, dad's master plan paid off. She learned to deal with a service job, and also to be part of the rumor mill regarding the department. She did an exceptional job and learned all kinds of insights, and earned a few hundred dollars for Italy. 

DD2 spent the summer interning in the cancer unit of our local university hospital / research center. That was her first paying job at almost 21. She also did great (being the lab rat).

What I saw was that both girls have an awesome work ethic, learn very fast, and adapt. All despite having done few chores, if any. 

To bring this back to topic, will their future husbands complain about cooking or housework? Probably. Will it be a deal breaker? I don't think so.


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## NobodySpecial

MrsHolland said:


> You are missing the point. It is not about the particular chore, more about being a contributing, fully functioning adult and part of a team/family. It is very easy to do things well that people have a passion for like cooking, much harder to all of a sudden as an adult that has never had to contribute, to suddenly learn that to have a functioning, functional household, they have to participate.


Yes. This.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EleGirl said:


> Ok.. I did not write every single thing I tried. I did that.
> 
> There was a period of time that I did as little as possible. I let things pile up, stay dirty. I did not cook for him, only myself and the kids. He did not even notice.


Hmmmm. I have bad words forming on my .... keyboard. F that.


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## EleGirl

NobodySpecial said:


> Hmmmm. I have bad words forming on my .... keyboard. F that.


Well, that's the same bad words that I used. Got the kids out of high school and filed for divorce.

And he swears to this day that he loves me, blah blah blah.


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## citygirl4344

EleGirl said:


> If a person does the dishes and leaves the sink dirty. Then they are still leaving a good part of the task for their partner to do.
> 
> 
> 
> If a person paints a wall but only sloshes paint on splotches across the wall, then can they claim actually painted the wall? Someone still needs to come in behind them and finish the job.
> 
> 
> 
> We had a guy on TAM who said that his wife always nagged him even though he did the dishes often. Come to find out he only did the dishes and left the sink and counters a mess. After he did the dishes he would go watch TV. He used the 'I did it my way' excuse and then complained about his wife.
> 
> 
> 
> As it turns out his wife, after putting the kids to bed, getting their stuff ready for the next day, etc. would go in the kitchen to make lunchs for the family for the next day. All this while the husband was watching TV. But because the husband did not clean the sink and counters, she had to do that before she could make lunches.
> 
> 
> 
> What the husband was doing was a typical passive aggressive move. How could she possible get angry with him because he did the dishes? Of course he ignored that she was doing 2-3 hours more work in the evening than he to include having the clean the sink and counters. He got to relax and watch TV .She did not.
> 
> 
> 
> Doing a job in a clearly half assed way is a typical passive aggressive thing that people do. Eventually it leads to the other person just giving up and doing it themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> When I think of the thing about do things their own way, and not getting all bent out of shape about my way, I think of things like setting the dishwasher. I don't care how things are stacked in the dishwasher. Sure I have my way. But if someone else puts them in the dish washer their own way... more power to them. At least the dishes are in the dish washer and running. It would be asinine for me to ***** at a person for not sorting the spoons and forks like I do when I set the dishwasher.
> 
> 
> 
> But if you do wash the dishes, don’t leave the sink all dirty, that’s a half assed job. That's not doing the job your way. That's just not finishing the job.




Ok I get it.
But if dishes peeves someone off that much it's obviously the tip of the Iceberg with regards to the marriage. Just divorce and end the misery.
If the other person doesn't get it they will when you're gone.



Sent from my iPhone


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## NobodySpecial

EleGirl said:


> Well, that's the same bad words that I used. Got the kids out of high school and filed for divorce.
> 
> And he swears to this day that he loves me, blah blah blah.


Who does his laundry now? That one has always made me wonder.


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## EleGirl

NobodySpecial said:


> Who does his laundry now? That one has always made me wonder.


him

He had to do it when I stopped doing everything.


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## EllisRedding

john117 said:


> Sigh.
> 
> DD1 is an exceptional baker. No surprise a good part of her first paycheck went into a kitchenaid mixer . She learned to be thorough, deliberate, research, follow directions, adapt if needed (making lady fingers from scratch... Ouch) and learn from your mistakes.
> 
> Those are skills far more useful than putting air in your tires. She learned that eventually as well.
> 
> Her studio apartment was always immaculate, even with a cat roaming around. I had to walk her through things like cleaning the oven without harsh chemicals, but she's a quick learner.
> *
> Instead of teaching useless skills, I prefer to teach critical thinking skills and where to find information*.


Everyone has their own experience and approach when it comes to parenting. There is nothing wrong with the bolded.


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## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> “I think that sometimes, a person (male or female) has the right in marriage to withhold sex if their spouse is mistreating them. No one is obligated to have sex with a spouse if they are mistreated.


Of course.


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## Starstarfish

> Will it be a deal breaker? I don't think so.


Considering the number of threads started by guys on TAM about lazy entitled wives? Hmm. But regardless, that's for the future husbands to decide what is a deal breaker for them. It may or may not be.

I also find it very interesting how "American thinking" and American values are evidently so distasteful. And yet, both daughters will be attending American universities where they'll learn American thinking from Americans? 

I'm as liberal as the day is long, but there's something to be said for talking so poorly about people while happily utilizing other people's money to one's own ends.


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## john117

Starstarfish said:


> I also find it very interesting how "American thinking" and American values are evidently so distasteful. And yet, both daughters will be attending American universities where they'll learn American thinking from Americans?


Not necessarily distasteful. More like unfocused


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## 2ntnuf

MrsHolland said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/16411242-post725.html


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/16411242-post725.html

What the hell was wrong with that? 


Is it possible?

Then you went off on me. So what the hell is wrong with asking a question like that?! Are you so offended by someone even suggesting that some wives might expect a man to help out around the home that you can't handle the question?

I'm sure there are some wives who would expect a husband to do the majority of the housework. Who would they be? Wives who have stay at home dads. 

This is surreal. What's wrong with you?!

I guess it's expected...what does that mean? Let's see. I guess a wife expects her husband to help out around the home.

You want to complain more about that? 

Duh....


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## EleGirl

2ntnuf said:


> What the hell was wrong with that?
> 
> 
> Is it possible?
> 
> Then you went off on me. So what the hell is wrong with asking a question like that?! Are you so offended by someone even suggesting that some wives might expect a man to help out around the home that you can't handle the question?
> 
> I'm sure there are some wives who would expect a husband to do the majority of the housework. Who would they be? Wives who have stay at home dads.
> 
> This is surreal. What's wrong with you?!
> 
> I guess it's expected...what does that mean? Let's see. I guess a wife expects her husband to help out around the home.
> 
> You want to complain more about that?
> 
> Duh....


Who is this addressing?


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## 2ntnuf

EleGirl said:


> Who is this addressing?


Check back. It didn't quote properly. It's all there with a link.


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## PieceOfSky

I'm sorry this thread exists. (Not a response to the posts immediately above.)

Lots of attempts to apply generalizations to specific circumstances that one is not personally familiar with. It seems generally (heh), the generalizations in play here are based on small sample sizes, acquired during the most trying and sad and angering parts of one's life -- not always the easiest circumstances to maintain objectivity.

I've heard claims wars have been started to distract the masses from truth. I suppose gender wars, and class wars, and wars based made up facts about what others have done, are doing, or are destined to do in the future are sometimes too.


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