# Love? Is it me or is it the money?



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

This is yet another random thought going through my head in regards to my wife's continual expressions of love. I am just curious -> how do I know that she truly loves me, and doesn't want to divorce because she doesn't want to lose me as a PERSON - and not because of the money?

Years ago when I first met her she was anything but materialistic, she comes from a rich family and at that time I was only working part-time with no interest in a career. All that changed when my daughter was born, and now I'm very financially secure and stable as a sole provider and owner of my own successful business.

But times change, right now I don't know if I can say "she loves me for me"... because I am unable to prove it. How do I find out?


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> This is yet another random thought going through my head in regards to my wife's continual expressions of love. I am just curious -> how do I know that she truly loves me, and doesn't want to divorce because she doesn't want to lose me as a PERSON - and not because of the money?
> 
> Years ago when I first met her she was anything but materialistic, she comes from a rich family and at that time I was only working part-time with no interest in a career. All that changed when my daughter was born, and now I'm very financially secure and stable as a sole provider and owner of my own successful business.
> 
> But times change, right now I don't know if I can say "she loves me for me"... because I am unable to prove it. How do I find out?


Short of cutting her off totally, you can't. Because to be fair she'd have every right to be pissed at you if you suddenly quit your job and sold all your stuff. 

You should be secure enough in your wife's actions, to show that she loves you, to not have to ask a question like this.

Does she not show you love in the ways that you can understand?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If she was only around for your money she would be cheating and/or looking elsewhere for 'love'. Most people cannot be faithful when it's only money holding them.

Could she get spousal support if the two of you divorced? What % of the assets would she get? 

With all of that she might be just fine financially if she divorced you. So the fact that she does not divorce you is another indicator that she's working on herself and your marriage for love.


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## d4life (Nov 28, 2012)

You can send all of your money to me and see how happy she is then. :rofl:

No really, you shouldn't have to ask this question. You should just know. Does she do anything for you? Are you happy? Does she seem happy? 

I am pretty sure my mom remarried for money and she is miserable. They fuss all the time. While they spend time together it's not quality time, it's forced time. They have not "been together" in a LONG time. While they care for each other I really think that both of them would be better off apart.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm on a mobile device so hard to type but its not the money.

I've followed your story for over a year.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Dude,
Its all about respect and consideration.
My wife has become more and more disabled as a result of of MS.
I love her and show her that by considering her needs, and listening to her thoughts.

She shows me the same consideration and respect. 
There is no doubt in my mind even though she is now very finacially dependent on me.

You are used to looking over your shoulder from your time on the streets, I think EleGirl and Mavash have given reliable advise, you can put that one to bed.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ah hell I'm just thinking too much, you guys are right.

:slap:
I should stop being so paranoid!!!

I dunno though like.. yes my wife does show love it's just that I've seen how cruelly deceptive some people can be. E.g. My mother herself also remarried for money, hence my paranoia. She's pretty much lying constantly to my stepdad, even admitted to calling her husband a pet name to prevent freudian slips of someone else she loves. Sure, it's their business... 

But it doesn't give me much hope in the integrity of people sometimes though with my mum as an example, I fear my wife doing what my mother is doing to my stepdad that's all. The things that we have which may be lost - such as the house, the constant income and stability after divorce, still grounds for possible fear.

Ah hell nevermind, I'm having a brainfart day. Thanks for setting me straight guys, hell I have to get over this paranoia.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

You are doing the right thing by bringing it up here to look at it.

That way it will not work in you in secret. Self awareness is priceless!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Heh well it has been working in me in secret for some time. I dismissed it as paranoia at first... but then I started thinking...

And I shouldn't have been thinking... sh-t happens when I think >.<
Heh I dunno, lately been in a bit of a brainfart so it came out. At least I can relax a bit in this though, thanks.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Heh well it has been working in me in secret for some time. I dismissed it as paranoia at first... but then I started thinking...
> 
> And I shouldn't have been thinking... sh-t happens when I think >.<
> Heh I dunno, lately been in a bit of a brainfart so it came out. At least I can relax a bit in this though, thanks.


I always say you think too much and now you know why. LOL

I totally get it I do it too and it gets me in trouble as well. Like you I try to create trouble where there is none. The cure is to do what you just did by starting this thread....get it out in the open and let others calm you down.

I tell my crazy, paranoid thoughts to someone. Here, my therapist, my husband (he's safe), a trusted friend, etc. I have people in my life that keep me grounded and that's what you need too. Just be sure that they are 'safe' people. TAM is safe because of the sheer volume. If the majority of us say she's not in this for the money then you're good. KWIM?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Aye, tis true - my wife also confirmed it; I tend to start sh-t when thinking too much. Happens especially when my fear clouds my instincts, so I get confused about what to think and result in over-analysing everything and missing key points - points that you guys pointed out.

Guess it's not about the money... but what if it's about the stability itself? I dunno, just random thoughts and might as well get them all out while I'm at it


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Stability, money it's all the same thing really.

My answer stands.....that's not what she's about.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Not really actually, but that's just my opinion. Like let's say we divorce, she'll get a hefty sum, but it's not like it would be enough to sustain her lifestyle for the rest of her life. So it's still a possible fear, with me she's pretty much set and has peace of mind.

Tell me though Mavash, why do you feel so strongly that it's not the money? Like hey, I was an a$$ too. My wife and I did have very deep conversations about "that night", and many other fights. Probably why we're actually in better spirits now because we did tie up a lot of loose ends with our newly founded transparency and "nothing to lose" attitude when it comes to it. Still... I'm not very proud of it, and it's enough to make me not love myself, I have no idea why she even still sticks with me. Hell I don't even know why I still stick with her. *sighs* Love is blind.

Just thinking outloud... no need to get alarmed lol
Just curious really

EDIT:
Wait a minute, got a brilliant idea! What if hehe, I hire a handsome young looking actor to play rich boy, plenty of richer guys then me in town, then introduce him to my wife, and see what happens.

Nah she'll probably think I've gone gay heh. Or she'll cheat on me with him! heh that would be funny, betrayed by my own spy lol
I dunno, just thinking out loud whatever comes to my head, I just find the thought amusing...


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Whether she appreciates you as a provider or she just loves the way you sing in the shower, it's all good. Whatever keeps her in the game. Like most people, she probably has a number of reasons to stay motivated in the marriage. If one of them is security, that makes her pretty much like 98% of women on the planet. As long as she has more reasons to stay than to go, you're doing ok. As a rule, men get into marriage for sex and nurturing and women tend to want security. Women weren't especially great hunters and they had the habit of being pregnant. Finding a good provider meant she and her babies kept eating. Hasn't been that long ago that women couldn't even own property. A stable man was sort of necessary for survival. You work hard to be a good provider for her, so it'd be a little strange if she didn't value you, at least, in part, because you go out and slay dragons instead of laying on the couch. Would she still adore you if you decided to be a bum and never work again? Would you still adore her if she decided you were never getting laid again?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

That's true... I'm still paranoid thanks to my mum though. My stepdad is still clueless that he's being used, but my mum "needs someone to look after her as she grows old" so I can't really rob her of that and it's not really my business. Just sad though, because he's a really good guy.

Sure he's a good provider, but she doesn't love him. I dunno, I'm just thinking outloud with mischievous thoughts I guess. Thanks though


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Your wife reminds me of myself and I didn't marry for money or security. I'm not your typical woman in that I'm fiercely independent.

Another thing is I've read your posts for probably 18 months and I've never heard anything that makes me even remotely thinks she is in this for the money. I believe she truly loves you. She's broken yes and struggles with healthy love but she adores you. Her actions prove it to me. If it were just the money she wouldn't care if she had sex with you she would go shopping instead. If she were just interested in the money she wouldn't care what you did as long as the money kept flowing. But that's not what she does does she?

Ask yourself how a person would act who only cares about money then compare it to your wife. I think you'll see she's not like that.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> That's true... I'm still paranoid thanks to my mum though. My stepdad is still clueless that he's being used, but my mum "needs someone to look after her as she grows old" so I can't really rob her of that and it's not really my business. Just sad though,


if your stepdad opened his eyes what would he see? Is there evidence that he's being used? Would he know it if he looked or does he just not want to know?


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

I haven't worked in 13 years. I wasn't expecting to be "retired" at such a young age of 26. I was very independent and the sole breadwinner in my first marriage. Now I don't have a choice to go back and I'm very dependent on my husband.(not by choice!)

When I met my husband I never asked his salary. In fact, I never knew how much he made until I took over the bills a couple years ago. I prefer to live a frugal and self sufficient as possible. My husband wants to take an early retirement and he's working hard to do so.

I love my husband for who he is. He is kind, gentle, loving, a great supporter of my dreams/hobbies, a wonderful father and husband. Never would I take him for granted.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

Hi

I think it's a difficult question but I KNOW what you mean.

Money is unfortunately "integrated" within anyone's marriage and it's hard to separate marriage and money. So asking if your wife is with you for money or for YOU would be a slightly difficult question to answer as you have a status and money is definitely part of it. 

So you could possibly rephrase the question. "Do you think my wife would stay with me if I was poor?"

Money is important.(this aspect is often neglected to be discussed properly) Often the subject of Money is rarely discussed whilst it is a fact that many marital problems do arise from disagreement in handling Money (mine included!) In fact, Money is one of the top 3 reasons for divorce so it should be discussed far more openly. It's good that this forum does have a section, which is invaluable.

Money provides us a shelter, a warm place to conduct our life, buys us food...it's quite frankly ESSENTIAL. So it's really part of marriage. Let's say, it's a blood to keep the body (marriage) alive. If you don't have enough, you suffer, simply.

Have you ever "bailed" her out for her debts if there were any debts?

I'm kind of considering to bail my h's debts out he secretly racked up behind my back (he has done some selfish stuff including having a long-term mistress etc). His debts are about £10K. Since, marriage improved a lot after all this hell in 2012. 

I do ask myself a question. Is he with me because of Money? To be honest, status and money..it's part of your character. My Dad use to tell me your status would be part of your attraction as you grow older as a woman. I think he was right.
I can give instead of receiving all the time. Money is probably part of the attraction whether I like it or not if that makes any sense?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Omegaa said:


> Money is probably part of the attraction whether I like it or not if that makes any sense?


When deciding who to marry yes I'm going to pick the guy who has a job. I don't need a lot of money but I do need enough for food, clothing and shelter. I'm not materialistic, I'm low maintenance and I'm frugal. There isn't a man out there that would ever accuse me of marrying for money. It's just not in my personality.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

@Mavash

True, that's what confusing me a bit I guess. You're right that her actions does not reflect one of a materialistic woman, but she is very used to her lifestyle last 4 years not having to worry about money, that's just what I fear like -> if she divorced she'll still have a hefty sum but there's no way her parents will support her with an income nor centerlink which means she will have to work. And you know how she feels about working nowadays, nag her enough and she brings up having another kid.

As for my stepdad he is clueless, my mother's quite smart, the only clue is that she rarely calls him by his name, just pet names to prevent freudian slips. But that's due to her being somewhat unable to let go of her ex. She does continue to work as well, doesn't want to give him the impression of the truth, I guess it's more of investment with her husband. She genuinely wants to feel secure as she grows older to have someone to care for her, the only thing missing in their marriage is her love for him which is non-existent. It's a complicated thing.

@I'minlovewithhubby

Well, I hope that is how my wife feels. Like you she entered my life and never judged the book by its cover, living poor didn't mean I couldn't get money if I wanted it. I just hope her love for me hasn't switched to financial love.

@Omegaa

Yes, that's true. I also wouldn't want my daughter in the future to bring home some bum unless I know he can work hard if he wants to. Like when 4-5 years ago I didn't have a career nor a full-time job because I enjoyed my very laid back lifestyle and part-time working. I supported myself, but was quite poor, drove a sh-tbox, lived in shared accommodation, etc etc. But I never once asked for money, if I needed more, I picked up more hours. That's why at the start it was obvious that my wife at that time loved me for me.

And when my daughter was born, I picked up any hours available until I worked 84 hours a week (which my wife complained about endlessly - until of course I got promoted and given more responsibility, then as time went by at how the place was managed they sold the business to me, which I then expanded on it over the last 4 years. But nowadays it's alot harder to prove if she's materialistic or not it seems. She's never had to worry about not being to pay debts, the only time we argued about money was when she had extravagant spending habits for the first two years of marriage which did cut into our income when I wanted to save and my business at that time wasn't like how it is today. The problem was solved when I gave her more responsibility in terms of financial management however. After 4 years, it finally paid off, and now we can pretty much afford to be less worried, I made a sh-tload of money to cover the cost of expanding the restaurant and opening a bar and it was all worth it. The turnover rate is consistent and stable, and I have a very strong team, I also operate on a flat management structure which does seem to build strong morale and make them just as committed to my (our) business as me, and many of the ideas were made by my staff which I implemented. My business in the end is the result of team effort.

But nevermind, Mavash is right, there's no real reason to think like this. Unless you can count my mum who's made me paranoid lol


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I've been home for 9 years now and while I don't want to go back to work either I promise I would over staying in a loveless marriage. I think the worst thing in life being married to someone I don't love.

Be careful comparing your life to someone else's. Just because it happened to them doesn't mean it will happen to you.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Heh I try not to, just hits close to home when it's family you know. It's a constant reminder to not trust anyone. Not to mention it was my mum who taught me that lesson when I was 12 too.

Ah hell I've already limited contact, but I shouldn't let her marriage sip into my thoughts when it comes to my marriage right now, right in front of me. My wife is not my mum, both women but both individuals. Same with her mum and her (and her mum is... grrr).

What's the problem with our MUMS? Both of us, my wife as well. Funny really, it's one thing we have in common. Except my dad at least has a backbone  I swear her dad has to fking grow a spine, but considering his wife... looks like she's sucked the life outta him. My wife still tries to be a good daughter I guess, she had to make difficult decisions being with me, but I think we both have to limit the influence our mums have on our own lives.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Heh I try not to, just hits close to home when it's family you know. It's a constant reminder to not trust anyone. Not to mention it was my mum who taught me that lesson when I was 12 too.
> 
> Ah hell I've already limited contact, but I shouldn't let her marriage sip into my thoughts when it comes to my marriage right now, right in front of me.


My family tree reads like a who's who of dysfunction. No way in heck I'm looking in their direction for any advice. My parents taught me not to trust either and it almost ruined my marriage. I now make my own decisions about who is trustworthy and who isn't. 

I got lucky in that I got disowned 14 years ago. Haven't spoken to either of my parents. And my sister followed suit last summer to which I say good riddance. I'm healthy and she's well not. LOL


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Was your mother from a rich family too, like your wife? Trust me, your wife had her pick of pretty, rich boys before she married you. She chose you. Just think she was with you before you became 'somebody'. She loves you for you through thick and thin for better for worse in sickness and health richer or poorer. She knew you and loved you when you were a seed. Just watch out for the ones out there who didn't want to invest time in you when you were just a seed. She did. PS you may be having more of a problem in how you view the wealth...you see it as all yours, all your blood sweat and tears and may not be acknowledging her supportive role in your success first as a human being and second as a wealthy one. If she felt back then, the way you are feeling about her now, she may not have married you and you may not have been all that you are today. Give credit where credit is due.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well, that was back then. I've changed, done things over the years that still left her with some scars. We had good times but our bad... they really leave a mark, like she was dead serious about divorce during that night, I underestimated the effect she could have on me.

It's just that with everything that has happened... sure she made her decision to give us one last chance, but her initiative, her cooperation... why? Sure, she has proven via actions that she does value our marriage but the truth is - I can still smell a lot of fear in her. But is it fear of losing her income/lifestyle, or is it fear of losing me? 

As for her contributions to our marriage I don't deny them, our wealth, our home, our daughter's wellbeing, she deserves her due. But when it comes to my business itself, nope, my blood and sweat. She supported me yes, but at the end of the day, I've always been the bacon bringer. If we divorce things may get complicated because my business is not divorce-proof, which means I may have to sacrifice other assets, and if she wants to fight to own a business she doesn't even have a clue of managing, I'll be there in court. 

Besides if anything she's been a pain in the ass to deal with when it comes to the business for a time, in the early days she kept forcing the issue of sex making it difficult as I had to wake up early prior to work only to satisfy her sexually in the morning and then to sacrifice my lunch break to satisfy her in the afternoon and then after being exhausted after a 12 hour day and playing with my daughter I have to satisfy my wife once again before bedtime. Then repeat the next day.

Then after ownership she second-guessed every proposal I brought up when it comes to my business and my expansion plans, trying to talk me out of spending so much money when we were already living comfortably - and accused me of trying to get away from her (which a part of that is true - for obvious reasons considering our sexual lifestyle - and she knows)

Like come on!

As for the house, if she wants it, I won't fight for it, it's hers, she built it and she maintained it, I may have contributed to it financially but it's her time and effort, her blood and sweat that made it and kept it as a home. I can only hope she is that fair with me if we do divorce. But hell that's divorce and I shouldn't be focused on that as my wife and I are in reconciliation... still the threat there though... I'm more concerned about her motivations behind wanting to make things work.

But it's fine, it haunts me abit but I have to let it go. Guess there's no way of knowing, and the more I think about this, the less harder I will try to even make things work because I'll start having second thoughts whether all of this is even worth it.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Honestly this thread is almost heartwarming, and its longevity for a Dude thread is notable, ha ha. ( i know you like to get some input and move on, its all good)

Dude, I understand the feeling to want to test someones (i.e. a wife's) loyality. That is our insecurity and is not right, never set someone you love up like that,

I know you were probably just thinking out loud.

Recognize those thoughts for what they are, insecurity and unworthy of a man, we are the protectors of our families.

The honesty in these threads is amazing.

Take care!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Yeah, there's just not enough evidence to prove anything one way or another or to even really justify a test I guess. She proved herself to me 4 years ago... hell come to think of it, if it's about the money she wouldn't have been fighting me over my working hours when I was trying to expand the business I guess.

:scratchhead: Right?


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Thats true.

She has been fighting for you in her own way all along, it was dysfunctional but sincere.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Oops, I edited in something else just as you posted lol
*Fixed*

Anyways I got a serious idea...

What if, to solve this issue once and for all, I just glance the topic of my family's situation very casually past one of our conversations, and see her reaction to it. Maybe the story might hit close to home and she may feel uncomfortable, dead giveaway, as we haven't talked about this much nor have I even brought up this topic with her lol

Or she will get angry at my mum and people like that, which means we're on the same page when it comes to our views of morality/integrity/honesty. Sure, if she is malicious enough she can still lie her way through this "test". But regardless even if she is lying, the truth and the reminder of my own mum's unhappiness living in a marriage only for the money may encourage her to make sure that her decisions are based on her heart rather then material desires.

So hey, either way, in this test, she still wins, and I get to encourage her to be honest with her intentions indirectly with a passing topic squeezed into our usual daily chats. What you guys think?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm sure the financial security has something to do with it.

A counselor told me well-adjusted people look at a potential mate both from "how much do I like this person" and "what does this person bring to the relationship". So, your wife likely takes your earnings into account, and that's okay.

She might see the money just as proof of your willingness to be hard-working and responsible. Or, she might see the money as proof you aren't going to be a drain on her (since her family has money also, as you said). Seems to me like it's just a healthy person making sure a relationship will meet one's genuine needs.

Caveat: if dynamics shift and seem to be more and more about money, you do indeed need to suspect a problem. Examples of this would be if she gets pissed that you slow down a bit or maybe pass up an assignment to maintain work/life balance, or she starts spending more money without bringing more in or discussing it with you, or if business hits a rough spot not your doing and she gives you crap about it. 

If you are giving it a solid effort and bills are being paid, and money is still an issue, then any conflict over money would be a red flag and you would need to look into the issue further. There are too many stories of guys online saying "my wife feels she has to keep up with the Joneses" or "she's pissed because I don't make XYZ" or "business / my job tanked in this economy and now she's resentful" to ignore trouble signs.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well DTO... based on what you wrote, especially this:



> Examples of this would be if she gets pissed that you slow down a bit or maybe pass up an assignment to maintain work/life balance, or she starts spending more money without bringing more in or discussing it with you, or if business hits a rough spot not your doing and she gives you crap about it.


And this:


> There are too many stories of guys online saying "my wife feels she has to keep up with the Joneses" or "she's pissed because I don't make XYZ" or "business / my job tanked in this economy and now she's resentful" to ignore trouble signs.


Well... considering she gets p-ssed at the opposite (she gets p-ssed when I bring up or talk about new business proposals, she gets p-ssed when I tell her I have to work all weekend/etc - in fact, she wants me to leave my business alone and let someone else manage it *sigh*)

... ok, maybe it's not about the money.

I don't know, so maybe she didn't care about the money when we were married nor when we were dating, but well we're seperated *now*... so who knows what she's thinking heh

I'm leaving it alone as it is though, still a backthought but I'm hoping I can just close this for good so I can sleep a little easier. Hard enough already really, especially our daughter is asleep and we talk for a good time until one of us goes to sleep wasting our cash in the process since we live apart. But it helps.

Funny how we bond better emotionally over the phone compared to when we were always in the same bed (unless a fight, then I sleep in my man-cave bed which is the only room that pretty much has some testorome left in the house to be honest!). You can be so physically close to someone yet so apart heh


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Funny how we bond better emotionally over the phone compared to when we were always in the same bed (unless a fight, then I sleep in my man-cave bed which is the only room that pretty much has some testorome left in the house to be honest!). You can be so physically close to someone yet so apart heh


Told you this before it's easier for people like her to bond emotionally when she's not living with them. When you're together you trigger her.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

Hi Sorry

What was the reason why you're separated?
Sorry, I don't mean to be nosey but it may clarify further as to your situation somewhat?


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> When you're together you trigger her.


You say that again..!!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Omegaa said:


> Hi Sorry
> 
> What was the reason why you're separated?
> Sorry, I don't mean to be nosey but it may clarify further as to your situation somewhat?


My ******* behaviour and her nymphomania. Thread here: It's old, very sad, very embarrassing, and looking back, I really fked up:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/60153-all-hell-broke-loose-2.html (it's 11 pages long!)
Summary here of what led up to that night here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/1209551-post291.html

Ironically, our dynamics have changed completely since seperation, and we're now in reconciliation and both of us are working towards fixing our dynamics so we can live together again. That night left scars however, she doesn't want to go back to what we had as it was fked and nor me.

@Mavash

Yes that's true, I like her better like this, she's more fun, more in control, and much less one-dimensional, I can actually talk to her heh
I do hope things work out, and that when we do feel we're ready to live together again, our dynamics will be the same as what we have now; transparency, honesty, calm discussions, teamwork, cooperation

I guess a part of the reason why I'm also paranoid that it has to be about the money is because the switch. She changed very fast, like sure she takes the situation seriously now, but why didn't she for the last 4 years? You know


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> My ******* behaviour and her nymphomania. Thread here: It's old, very sad, very embarrassing, and looking back, I really fked up:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/60153-all-hell-broke-loose-2.html (it's 11 pages long!)
> Summary here of what led up to that night here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/1209551-post291.html
> 
> Ironically, our dynamics have changed completely since seperation, and we're now in reconciliation and both of us are working towards fixing our dynamics so we can live together again. That night left scars however, she doesn't want to go back to what we had as it was fked and nor me.


Hi RD Thanks very much.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> I guess a part of the reason why I'm also paranoid that it has to be about the money is because the switch. She changed very fast, like sure she takes the situation seriously now, but why didn't she for the last 4 years? You know


Hi

Well, I am not sure if she has access to any regular financial maintenance since the separation? Or does she still have access to the joint account at present knowing you have a shared responsibility for your young daughter?

I realize more as to why you have been wondering about her "motives" behind her willingness to change so suddenly. It is *probably* because of the fact that your separated wife has been financially dependent on you entirely (if I understood this correctly based on what I read in your other thread). In a way, she never learned to stand on her feet financially. Once you are gone, then she needs to depend on you.

Perhaps, you should stop allowing her to access your entire incomes and give her some sensible "allowance" each month. If that's not enough to her, then it's up to her to do something about that. Do not allow her any extravagant spending.

Perhaps, then you should observe her reaction to see how she will respond to this new "regime".

You say, your wife is from an upper class family; she never learned to understand the value of money as money was dished out to her automatically, in her entire childhood, it seems. She may expect you to be a surrogate parent (or a bank account) money-wise but you need to change this. Probably, this is where your "unease" may be coming from.

If your wife is healthy enough, I don't see any reasons why she won't be able to go and earn some money for herself.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> I guess a part of the reason why I'm also paranoid that it has to be about the money is because the switch. She changed very fast, like sure she takes the situation seriously now, but why didn't she for the last 4 years? You know


She didn't take the situation seriously because YOU didn't take it seriously.

It isn't about the money.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Omegaa said:


> Hi
> 
> Well, I am not sure if she has access to any regular financial maintenance since the separation? Or does she still have access to the joint account at present knowing you have a shared responsibility for your young daughter?


She still has access to our joint account, my money is still hers, especially since we're co-parenting, and she hasn't done anything to show me that I can't trust her in this.



> I realize more as to why you have been wondering about her "motives" behind her willingness to change so suddenly. It is *probably* because of the fact that your separated wife has been financially dependent on you entirely (if I understood this correctly based on what I read in your other thread). In a way, she never learned to stand on her feet financially. Once you are gone, then she needs to depend on you.


She did stand on her feet before I met her, about 12 yrs ago, when I met her though she was already redependent on her family and didn't have a full-time job. Yes she's been financially dependent on me since marriage - 4 years now.



> Perhaps, you should stop allowing her to access your entire incomes and give her some sensible "allowance" each month. If that's not enough to her, then it's up to her to do something about that. Do not allow her any extravagant spending.
> 
> Perhaps, then you should observe her reaction to see how she will respond to this new "regime".


It'll start a fight I'm sure, because that would mean she will have to work. Her family has had enough of her using their money and ironically this is one of the very few things that I agree with them on. She's been out of the workforce for years now.



> You say, your wife is from an upper class family; she never learned to understand the value of money as money was dished out to her automatically, in her entire childhood, it seems. She may expect you to be a surrogate parent (or a bank account) money-wise but you need to change this. Probably, this is where your "unease" may be coming from.
> 
> If your wife is healthy enough, I don't see any reasons why she won't be able to go and earn some money for herself.


She is not an extravagant spender anymore, she used to be though. Yes, I'm still her bank account, always have been. Don't know how I'm going to get her to get off her ass now though, been trying since our daughter is in school now but it never gets anywhere.

Giving her allowances though... hmmm, I have to think of a way to propose that without her going apesh-t lol



Mavash. said:


> She didn't take the situation seriously because YOU didn't take it seriously.
> 
> It isn't about the money.


The countless fights wasn't serious enough for her? :scratchhead:
Well... guess not lol


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Fighting followed by caving and giving her what she wanted isn't taking it serious.


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## pinkblossom79901 (Jan 21, 2013)

i think u r over thinking it beside she was w you when u fist had no money HELLLOOO she loves you i just think marriage changes w the yrs


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

I hate to put it this way but men and women approach the whole Love thing differently when there's money involved. Nuff said.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Yes she's been financially dependent on me since marriage - 4 years now.
> 
> Yes, I'm still her bank account, always have been. Don't know how I'm going to get her to get off her ass now though, been trying since our daughter is in school now but it never gets anywhere.


Hi 

You know what it is..? You are enabling her to be the way she has been behaving.

You can frozen her out of this "joint account" (it's odd to call it a "joint" account when you are the only one busy paying in lol and she's only spending what you had put in! LOL) It's not really a partnership. 

If you wanted to show your boundary to her, there are things you can do. You can move all the money into your new account with your sole name on it if you struggle to close the joint account all on your own. 

"It never gets anywhere" because you are not taking any action. "Talking" or "arguing" didn't get you anywhere which YOU already KNOW. She has a wealthy background and she won't suddenly start to have more motivation to do something out of her own life other than being reliant to your incomes - which is not a very attractive thing to do. She probably thinks that her status quo will continue and she gets her way BECAUSE you love her. Your relationship with her sounds conditional. You get to keep her love so long as you keep allowing her to take your money without her making any sort of effort to bring in some incomes.

Good luck!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> But times change, right now I don't know if I can say "she loves me for me"... because I am unable to prove it. How do I find out?


 By separating finances, paying ONLY the bills and putting the rest into retirement and college accounts, and letting her get anything ELSE on her own dime.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> It'll start a fight I'm sure, because that would mean she will have to work.


So?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

You do know by seperating finances/making her work for her money is pretty much the prelude to a fight yes? Oh hell, come to think of it I've been complaining that we've haven't had the chance to test whether we truly can resolve conflicts with better dynamics due to having ZERO fights since seperation either than her blonde moment a few weeks back which was more a :slap: then a fight or even an argument (was me going :slap: and her going  ).

So maybe it's time, then again she is going through alot right now. But hmmm, getting a job for her would be helpful because even when she has our daughter she spends most of the day doing nothing anyways. If I can use this to convince her rather then attacking her for freeloading it could get underneath her walls. I'm not the only one telling her this though, her parents are getting sick of her spoiled behaviour - lots of problems over at that end and she still hasn't found a lease yet.

I guess if we do have a fight and if it gets serious then I'll know it's about the money. Which will... really break my heart. But, better I know now then invest more money in this marriage to have my heartbroken later or to be used and I HATE being used.

Alright, I think I'll plan my approach and try to make it coming across as "helpful" to her instead of "nagging" and see what happens.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tell me what the big deal about having a fight is?

Will you melt into the floor? Self-combust? Will the cops come for you?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> But hmmm, getting a job for her would be helpful


Helpful for WHOM? You or her?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

For both of us, I don't really care if she contributes little financially as long as she's active and unless sitting at home doing nothing while our daughter is at school is helpful - she needs to get back out there eventually. Sure she's in counselling but so am I, and if I didn't work I would be going crazy. I'm surprised she's not crazy already... actually wait, she already is.

As for a fight we're on a streak, 2 months now we haven't been screaming at each other. I've come to like the stability. But nevermind, we'll see what happens when I bring it up.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> For both of us, I don't really care if she contributes little financially as long as she's active and unless sitting at home doing nothing while our daughter is at school is helpful - she needs to get back out there eventually. Sure she's in counselling but so am I, and if I didn't work I would be going crazy. I'm surprised she's not crazy already... actually wait, she already is.


So you get to decide how she lives her life? Not working might make you crazy but she's not you. Last time I checked she doesn't even live with you.

If you reconciled would this be a deal breaker if she said no to getting a job?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What you need is a POJA.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

So I should let her waste away? I can't ultimately decide for her and I'm not going to make decisions without her input unlike "that night", but in my opinion yes, it would help her. She doesn't live with me but she's still dependent on me financially.

And well, if we reconciled and she says no to getting a job she'd better have one hell of an excuse either than 'wanting another baby'. Semi-dealbreaker really, if she does change her other issues by that time, I won't really mind her remaining a SAHM besides my business has us both pretty much set.

I guess it's just her attitude that sh-ts me. And that in addition to my suspicions she's only coming around just because of money but I don't know. This thread has got me confused really. And what's a POJA?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I have no intention of ever working again and I'm not "wasting away". I'm a homemaker. My husband however is okay with this arrangement so we're good. I don't need an excuse to stay at home.

You don't need her money so what is it about her attitude that bothers you?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well for one, she doesn't understand how it is out there, whenever I had to put in extra hours such as when I was expanding the business she always complained and from time to time accused me of trying to get away from her (kinda true). It was frankly frustrating because she can be rather unappreciative at times.

Her working could curb her drive a little as well, still remember when she helped out at work for a while covering for our dish pig. Was only for a month or so but sex became more normalised. A week after she stopped, things just went back to normal. Hence another reason why I reckon a job could help her.

Also, I don't like how she just doesn't want to at least work for her money. I feel like a bank, sure she has curbed her spending but I feel like coughing out cash to a teenager when she wants something. "Daddy can I have this? Can I have that?" It's like I have 2 daughters.
Like hell even my mum who married a man for money still works so she can contribute her share, while my wife has had a very easy life. I really miss that independent side to my wife as well when we were dating, I pay, she pays, we kept things fair, money wasn't a problem, and we didn't bother to count but the gestures were there.

My wife and I have only ONE daughter, and our house maintenance doesn't take much time at all so she does nothing most of the day while our daughter is at school either than hanging out with friends, spending our money, or stuck at home playing computer games (which I'm guilty of getting her involved in). If we have two or more kids or if our house takes up more time then sure, I wouldn't mind.

But as it is, it just feels wrong.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> As for a fight we're on a streak, 2 months now we haven't been screaming at each other. I've come to like the stability. But nevermind, we'll see what happens when I bring it up.


Hi 

It's best not to scream at each other if you can help it; it's not good for your heart, so be kind to yourself  Don't you guys have any "mediation" service in the US (sorry I assumed that's where you are from?). 

I'm not sure if it's "wise" to tell her everything before you take any kind of action at some point given her character. (Just imagine a toddler who wants to get her ice cream by screaming when her mother won't let her..) 

She has had a lifelong habit of relying on her family; you are even subsidising her therapy (?) and she knows you will continue to support her as you love her. Have you ever told her, "get it for yourself if you want it" if she wants something? Each little thing you keep paying for her, she will want something else paid as well. 

You're in a much better situation where she does not live with you to avoid further conflicts. Sometimes, I think your wife needs to think about things alone and in her own time rather than discussing things together. You provided her a therapist. She just needs to work on that for herself. 

All the best to you,


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Her working could curb her drive a little as well, still remember when she helped out at work for a while covering for our dish pig. Was only for a month or so but sex became more normalised. A week after she stopped, things just went back to normal. Hence another reason why I reckon a job could help her.
> 
> *Like hell even my mum who married a man for money still works so she can contribute her share, while my wife has had a very easy life. I really miss that independent side to my wife as well when we were dating, I pay, she pays, we kept things fair, money wasn't a problem, and we didn't bother to count but the gestures were there.*
> 
> But as it is, it just feels wrong.


Hi

Shame your wife stopped working for your business after a month? Any reasons?

I know exactly what you mean. It is interesting that you had noticed that her drive had increased after she no longer had a job to go back to? It sounds more like she's trying to reassert her control and power when she hasn't got much else to show for? 

Your wife was perfectly independent before when you were dating. What happened? :scratchhead:


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> Shame your wife stopped working for your business after a month? Any reasons?


She just wanted to be a SAHM, and it wasn't exactly a permanent position.



> I know exactly what you mean. It is interesting that you had noticed that her drive had increased after she no longer had a job to go back to? It sounds more like she's trying to reassert her control and power when she hasn't got much else to show for?


Well when she has something to preoccupy her I have more free time before she pulls my pants down. Work helped during those times.



> Your wife was perfectly independent before when you were dating. What happened?


She got pregnant and married!



> Hi
> 
> It's best not to scream at each other if you can help it; it's not good for your heart, so be kind to yourself Don't you guys have any "mediation" service in the US (sorry I assumed that's where you are from?).
> 
> ...


Well, that is another option I guess, just leave it for the therapy. Let her find her own solutions, besides she knows full well I'm not happy with her being a SAHM. I don't know...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> She doesn't live with me but she's still dependent on me financially.


WHY? WHY do you support a woman who doesn't want to live with you? 

POJA = Policy of Joint Agreement (from marriagebuilders) in which you BOTH have to agree, and benefit from, an agreement. Right now, SHE is benefiting while you doormat your way out of her life.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> I feel like a bank, sure she has curbed her spending but I feel like coughing out cash to a teenager when she wants something. "Daddy can I have this? Can I have that?" It's like I have 2 daughters.


And whose fault is that? YOU are the dumb one here.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> She just wanted to be a SAHM, and it wasn't exactly a permanent position.
> 
> Well when she has something to preoccupy her I have more free time before she pulls my pants down. Work helped during those times.
> 
> ...


Yes.....

You allowed yourself to be her meal ticket and you know it and you resent it...

It seems she is very much used to using her power (e.g. SEX) and exercised control over you so that she can control you and expects you to keep paying for her. "Financial domination"? 

Does she pull your pants down all the time because she's madly in love with you? Does she do this to get the upper hand? You decide (as I don't know enough about her)


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

It's sex addiction. But either than frustrating me for the last four years, it's not a power thing when it comes to sex. It's not like she seduced me daily, if she did, I wouldn't be complaining that much because my "other brain" would be doing all the thinking. No, she just demanded sex instead, turning me off in the process, chucked fits if she didn't get her way, which caused us problems to the point we're now seperated.

As for being her meal ticket, I didn't mind it at first when she was taking care of our daughter but now it's been 4 years and she's already in school. So now I resent it. I was too nice now she's too comfortable to move. It's inertia.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Omegaa said:


> It seems she is very much used to using her power (e.g. SEX) and exercised control over you so that she can control you and expects you to keep paying for her. "Financial domination"?


She has a sex addiction. She doesn't do this for control. She does it because it's the only way she knows how to feel love.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I think what bothers you is that you resent her for the freedom she has and you don't. You think if she got a job she'd remove her claws from you and you'd be free. And on some level you're probably right. If she were busier she'd have something else to focus on besides you. 

So in a way it is like she's your daughter because your strategy is to distract her the same as you would a toddler. Give her a new toy to play with so she'll leave yours alone (pun intended).

But what I want to know is wouldn't it be easier to just say no?


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> But what I want to know is wouldn't it be easier to just say no?



Yes. A Good point.

Freezing their joint account won't make him a bad guy after all this. 

Would your wife meet your emotional needs?

I'd see a very little point of going through MC if you no longer love her because of her past and present dysfunctional behaviour? However, if you still love her then you still need to 
sort out the issues of finance. 

You ought to have a much firmer approach since she seems to have tendency to manipulate you to get what she wants.

In the meantime, you shouldn't make yourself too available to her during separation. You might want to be more independent and enjoy being solo. Take up some new hobby and have some fun. Meet new people.

Have you heard of "co-dependency"? You cannot rescue a grown adult when she is not willing to help herself. But I'm sure you already know that


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> I think what bothers you is that you resent her for the freedom she has and you don't.


My guess is what bothers him is that she seems to be USING him, and never really loved him, just wanted what he could give her.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> I think what bothers you is that you resent her for the freedom she has and you don't. You think if she got a job she'd remove her claws from you and you'd be free. And on some level you're probably right. If she were busier she'd have something else to focus on besides you.
> 
> So in a way it is like she's your daughter because your strategy is to distract her the same as you would a toddler. Give her a new toy to play with so she'll leave yours alone (pun intended).
> 
> But what I want to know is wouldn't it be easier to just say no?


Yup pretty much, give her a new toy that takes up her time and she'll leave mine alone! I am saying no, but she needs to reinforce the huge gap in her lifestyle now, somehow someway. She has taken up new hobbies but it didn't end. Having to work 8 hours a day though will change things. Having another child won't fix it and we've already been there with our daughter. But having two though... might. I just want her to channel her energy constructively.



Omegaa said:


> Yes. A Good point.
> 
> Freezing their joint account won't make him a bad guy after all this.
> 
> ...


Yes we are both co-dependent, we've been studying it together. She does seem to understand the toxicity of our dynamics more nowadays, but I don't know what will be her reaction when I meetup with her today and talk about this issue.

As for availability I'm enjoying my space, we still meetup but I let sex happen naturally without expectations and she has not initiated since - think she's paranoid. Ok, I'll have a talk with her about this, then I'll post her reaction here, see what you guys think about it.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

turnera said:


> My guess is what bothers him is that she seems to be USING him, and never really loved him, just wanted what he could give her.


Essentially


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Update, well... I didn't bring it up, sorry guys, but a long day today + my headache thinking about all this... just wasn't the right time. I preferred her pleasant company today anyways, maybe I'll bring it up next time.

Oh well, I dunno maybe I should just drop this whole thing... but maybe that's just my headache talking.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Yup pretty much, give her a new toy that takes up her time and she'll leave mine alone! I am saying no, but she needs to reinforce the huge gap in her lifestyle now, somehow someway. She has taken up new hobbies but it didn't end. Having to work 8 hours a day though will change things. Having another child won't fix it and we've already been there with our daughter. But having two though... might. I just want her to channel her energy constructively.


I see your thought process and it's a good idea actually but here's the thing most people resist being told what to do. That's why you read over and over again here why this never works. When you try to control another human being that you have no control over all that ends up happening is you piss them off. Do you understand this?

All is not lost though. If you come at this from what YOU won't tolerate, a boundary, then it's not about control anymore it's simply stating what you are not okay with. Then it's about you not them.

This is why I said you'd be better off telling her no than trying to 'channel her energy constructively'. That is not up to you to decide or do but saying no is.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why don't you just start with changing how the money works? Do that one thing today - reroute your check into a new account. If she wants any of your money, she'll have to COME to you and explain why she deserves it. Are you strong enough to do that one thing?


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

Hi

He's probably afraid of upsetting the applecart and of "hurting her feelings"? 

I do feel however, that it's somewhat wrong to expect her to give you another baby to keep her occupied when the marriage seems to have ongoing problems (dysfunctions). Children deserve to be in a functional, loving family. 

I don't mean to offend but I'm assuming that you may need to stay separated in case your "fights" would seriously affect your own daughter? She may end up suffering from any psychological damage from seeing her parents fighting?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well, "that night" was really bad for our daughter, don't know about psychological damage but all of this has been really bad for her. She's still acting up alot more nowadays being passed around between parents, and hearing arguments between my wife and her mum etc, so seperation isn't exactly an improvement except that my wife and I no longer fight.

As for just saying no and letting her figure it for herself, well that could work. As for restricting access to the joint account, she'll flip unless I can think of a way of making it look like I'm not cutting her off. As for upsetting the applecart, I don't know, I just want to handle this right. Besides I had a migraine yesterday.

Today I have all day with my daughter anyways so I'll have to deal with my wife tomorrow unless I call her up for a meetup.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No offense, RD, but you sound like a bit of a milquetoast. Nowhere in anything you say do you look like you act like a real alpha male. Like you keep letting everyone else dictate your life. 

How do you expect to get what you want, if you can't stand up for yourself?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Good, I hate the alpha male thing. Was very unbalanced and too far on the a$$hole side when I first came to this forum but now I've grown out of all that. I don't care about all this alpha/beta stuff and I haven't really cared since dating. 

Even though I've only been married 4 years it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that I have to compromise at times as long as the terms are reasonable. And it's not like she blatantly does nothing at all or that she spends like how she used to, so I don't see a reason to overkill it. She has her guns too you know, how else you think she's held her own all these years?

Not to mention I don't want to risk all the progress we've made so far by hastily walking into an argument with my wife about this rather continual and annoying issue without having all my bases covered. Cutting her off from her sexual habits has already made our marriage very volatile, and cutting her from money without her agreement on a plan that would benefit us both will end it. And I know her limits, I have to work smart I'm sorry.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> As for restricting access to the joint account, she'll flip unless I can think of a way of making it look like I'm not cutting her off.


Hi A very wise move.

Shame you didn't do this when she lost some money through some scam. When she was at fault, you could have restricted access back then in hindsight. You were too nice then.

Good luck!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Sh-t... you're right. That could actually have worked... *sigh*

:slap: Was too busy panicking about identity theft, thinking up blonde jokes, getting over her stupidity, and managed to forget about mine!

Wasted opportunity really, now I have to wait for the next time she does something stupid financially.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ok update, I've casually graced this topic alongside our usual conversations, nothing accusatory thus far. She says that she doesn't know what to do and doesn't know if she can really re-enter the workforce being out of work for 4 years. I suggested going to uni or TAFE so at least she'll be bettering herself but she doesn't know what career would be best for her. I suggested sales but she says she doesn't want to do it as a career (she's fking good at manipulation! And she keeps herself looking good = Sales is the job for HER! hehe)

Ah hell I don't know, she's currently going through a lifestyle shift and is still acclimatising to it. Normally she has sex often and has fun for the rest of the day and enjoys company with our daughter. Now she doesn't get sex that often, gets yelled at by her parents while our daughter is at school. She's under her own pressure so I am careful not to get into her "enemy" list. I need her by my side through this reconciliation process, and she hasn't really given me a reason to fight her. I'm still waiting for her to p-ss me off or something but she's scared ****less it seems.

I don't want her to take a job out of fear. Right now it seems that she's not completely rebellious about the whole idea but is very indecisive when it comes to her working future.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> I don't want her to take a job out of fear. Right now it seems that she's not completely rebellious about the whole idea but is very indecisive when it comes to her working future.


Baby steps.. She could do some volunteer work to gain confidence and building new skills? You mentioned that she's into Church; perhaps, she might want to work for the disadvantaged for example?

Good luck


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think you need to be MILDLY adamant about this. Meaning, don't be rude about it, but DO keep bringing it up, to show her that you are not going to be satisfied unless she's working. If you divorce, the courts will expect her to get a job, whether it's 'the right one' or not. Make her aware of that.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

True, she needs some form of inspiration. Something that will get her off her butt, I'll have a talk with her about it next time. And Turnera, yeah that sounds like a good plan; being supportive and encouraging, firm but not naggy/rude. Like walking a tightrope though trying to maintain balance but I guess that's just how it is.

Inspiration/motivation, she needs to find hers.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ok guys, update, caught up with my wife as she took my daughter to church, turns out she's booked career counselling.. Not much has happened but her attitude seems to be shifting, hell I wish we seperated sooner sometimes lol - she FINALLY understands... I think, or maybe she's only starting to. Either way, progress! 

Normally when she whined about her parents trying to get her to work I jump in and get on her nerves by being on her parents side. But lately I guess with the supportive and encouraging approach she feels at least understood, and instead of commenting I decided to affirm her feelings and merely suggest baby steps. Seems to be working!

Thanks for this. Unfortunately though my brain is working again... I've been thinking, ok, we're seperated, what does she stand to lose if we decide enough is enough and call it quits... I've provided for her for 4 years, and it's difficult to ensure that she makes the right decision to stay or leave regardless of my material ability. Even if she does get a job.

Darn it why do I have to be so hard to please >.<


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Actually wait, what you guys think of a post-nup?

What if later down the track I propose this, and see her reaction - do you think it would be a good test? :scratchhead:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Definitely. And that gives you the position of power. Don't wanna sign it? Fine. See ya later.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Don't know about position of power, because if she says see ya later, well, there goes half my assets lol

But yeah, it'll let me see if she's really in it because of love. For now though just going to play nice until she's ready for the test.

EDIT: Ok just had a think about this... this is a tough one. She does have our goals in mind and it is fair for her to ask the same. Springing a post-nup on her whilst seperated isn't exactly going to be the best impression. This is a step backward to actually go forward - and it's risky. There are many possible consequences.

Whether it's worth it or not, hmmm...


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> This is yet another random thought going through my head in regards to my wife's continual expressions of love. I am just curious -> how do I know that she truly loves me, and doesn't want to divorce because she doesn't want to lose me as a PERSON - and not because of the money?
> 
> Years ago when I first met her she was anything but materialistic, she comes from a rich family and at that time I was only working part-time with no interest in a career. All that changed when my daughter was born, and now I'm very financially secure and stable as a sole provider and owner of my own successful business.
> 
> But times change, right now I don't know if I can say "she loves me for me"... because I am unable to prove it. How do I find out?


I didnt read any of this thread... but my first thought was that it sounds like you are being excruciatingly insecure.

But I also see you are separated - so there is that. Not small point, that. (sorry, by the way)

Sounds to me like you are already making arguments with yourself about checking out and making sure your "a$$"ets are covered. Sounds like you could take it or leave it at this point... is that true?

I have no experience in this area and there are undoubtedly many here who can advise you better... but I think you need to decide.. really decide what you want to happen with you and your wife and then act accordingly. Do you really know what you want?

I think just positioning yourself for 'whatever happens' is a mistake. If you want to keep her - act like it. If you want a divorce... then act like that. Choose. Dont let circumstance dictate your actions. Sitting on the fence is only going to give you a sore a$$.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> ..But yeah, it'll let me see if she's really in it because of love. For now though just going to play nice until she's ready for the test...


Thats subversive and dishonest. If thats the way you feel - and without being mean spirited - I say you 2 are done. Toast.

What are you clinging to?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> Don't know about position of power, because if she says see ya later, well, there goes half my assets lol...


See, the thing is, if you're trying to 'win her over' just so you can keep your assets or other surface reasons, NO relationship you end up with, with her, will be genuine and will be doomed for failure.

You have to be willing to LOSE her AND half your assets, to maintain your dignity and self respect. And if she can't then come to you with respect for you, then you don't want her anyway. YOU need to be able to say see ya later, Dude. THAT is the position of power I'm talking about. It's the same, single most important piece of advice we give EVERY betrayed spouse or spouse of a walkaway, because...it's the only thing that works.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> She does have our goals in mind and it is fair for her to ask the same. Springing a post-nup on her whilst seperated isn't exactly going to be the best impression.


Be smart about this. There is going to be A CONVERSATION. Somewhere, some time, you and she will talk about whether you two will reconcile. You need to be able to say, at that time, "I love you and I want you, but I no longer trust you. YOU broke that trust, and I need you to own it. So if we get together, I first have to know that I'm protected from you, if you show this side of you again. If you're willing to sign a post-nup, I'm willing to talk reconciliation. Your choice. But I can't put myself in that position again without some protection from the actions you've shown yourself capable of doing."


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

So I must be ready to say goodbye to financial freedom and security by losing my business on top of losing my family is that it? Not just my income but alot of jobs will also be lost if liquidated for a divorce split all to satisfy the court and make a rich woman even richer who doesn't even need the fking money and force a man who went from rags to riches back to rags including his team at work who depend on him.

But well I guess that's what it comes down to isn't it?

Have you any idea how challenging it was and how lucky I am to have taken over my business? Very VERY few restaurants and bars in the industry turn over a fair enough profit let alone succeed. My advantage was having taken over a business that was already established and expanded on it. I was given way more freedom and control then if I had become a franchisee which is the road many new businesses ending up taking for the branding. 

I ain't giving it up without a fight I assure you, but if I am to lose it I will lose it knowing I've done everything I can to save it. Though after that then I'll probably put myself in a mental ward for a few weeks while I deal with losing everything so I don't do anything stupid.

I'll lose her if I have no other options but no way am I going to have wave a white flag if we have financial disputes.

@Anotherguy

My thoughts are raging, I'm considering it but have not brought it up with her, not yet. There's going to be consequences/risk either way, I'm just trying to figure out which path is worth it.

As for not sitting on the fence what can I do as of this moment? My wife has been insisting on reconciling and quite frankly she's been almost doing everything right by me, by her, and by our daughter. If she decided to be continue being a problem then sure, easy -> GET OUT. But in my position I have no choice but to hope for the best but plan FOR THE WORST. 

I can not pass judgement whether our marriage is salvageable over a few short months of reconciliation and working through our issues hence I can not reach a fair and informed decision. Hell in a way, all this thinking about testing her is a way to ACCELERATE my decision making process.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Your fear of losing your livlihood is larger than you fear of losing her. Would you agree? That isnt an accusation - its an observation, and not one you need to feel guilty about. Its a farking scary thought. I get it.

Have you talked with a lawyer about it? Maybe there are options that you have not considered to protect yourself - getting the business trasfered into an LLC etc.

"My wife has been insisting on reconciling and quite frankly she's been almost doing everything right by me, by her, and by our daughter."

That statement matters to me. I dont know the situation but you need to talk to someone who knows the legal landscape better and might make suggestions while you be patient (?) and see if you can get some confidence back that the relationship can work.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

turnera said:


> Be smart about this. There is going to be A CONVERSATION. Somewhere, some time, you and she will talk about whether you two will reconcile. You need to be able to say, at that time, "I love you and I want you, but I no longer trust you. YOU broke that trust, and I need you to own it. So if we get together, I first have to know that I'm protected from you, if you show this side of you again. If you're willing to sign a post-nup, I'm willing to talk reconciliation. Your choice. But I can't put myself in that position again without some protection from the actions you've shown yourself capable of doing."


Well, she hasn't exactly proven untrustworthy enough to say "I no longer trust you". Yes she has threatened divorce but so did I 2 years ago which makes it difficult. Add that to the fact that she's busy reconciling and I'm busy stressing over how vulnerable my business is, I'm in a very bad position to propose a post-nup during reconciliation and hell in the end my wife is right that the D word has no place during reconciliation so now I keep it to myself.

Regardless of all this I do want to be fair. And it's not like I don't want our marriage to work. I just can't get my financial vulnerability out of my head on top of the fact that my wife switched so quickly to "fix marriage" mood since seperation I question the level of integrity behind her decision to make things work whether it's my security she can't stand to lose or me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's why you wait a full year before moving back in together. If she still wants to by then, it's not for the money.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

You need to somehow let her know that her threatening D has put you into a highly defensive mode, made you feel lke a cornered animal.

I dont know if thats good advice - but I have little doubt that she knows exactly that the emotional and financial impact of D would mean. You need to air that out so everyone knows what the deal is.

The fact that you also threatened D a couple years ago might have made it MUCH easier for her to do this. Maybe she feels the playing field has evened out now - that you both have made an investment here and both have a lot to lose. 

Man - its going to take time for you both to get that trust back.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

anotherguy said:


> Your fear of losing your livlihood is larger than you fear of losing her. Would you agree? That isnt an accusation - its an observation, and not one you need to feel guilty about. Its a farking scary thought. I get it.
> 
> Have you talked with a lawyer about it? Maybe there are options that you have not considered to protect yourself - getting the business trasfered into an LLC etc.
> 
> ...


Yes I've sought legal advice, she stands to inherit an equal share and my business is the largest asset. I haven't gave them a balance sheet yet but it's not like it's going to change much. It's something I had not anticipated, most of the effective divorce-proofing is done prior to marriage. Yes there are ways I can attempt to retain ownership, but it will be one hell of a struggle with no guarantee.

As for losing her, it's one thing. Losing her + my business will shatter me and quite frankly if I don't have my daughter I might even lose my will to keep pressing forward, that's my limit. I don't want to be put in such a position, the whole thing is keeping me up last few nights.

This is a problem with me even back when I was a kid, if there's a threat towards me I hunt it down before it can catch me with my pants down. I can't do that with this situation.



> That's why you wait a full year before moving back in together. If she still wants to by then, *it's not for the money.*


What makes you say that? Is waiting a full year before moving back together really solid proof? =/


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

Hi 

It is somewhat quite puzzling that you are discussing these on here with posters instead of discussing with your own Wife face to face. 

I thought your R has been going well. If R has been going well on a surface without discussing important matters e.g. money then that's not a real R. R involves money matters whether we like it or not. You're obviously so AFRAID of her ruining your business and your livelihood at this point.

If you want Post-Nup as a condition for R, I don't see that would be a problem. After all, you would like to have some reassurance that your MONEY would be protected if R hadn't worked out. It's best to do this whilst you are still separated.

To be quite frank, R may not work out. With P/N, you will be better protected than nothing. It's a bit like an insurance when you have an expensive Chinese vase and buy an insurance cover...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

As long as you're not giving her money in the meantime, it's pretty good proof that she doesn't NEED you for support. Many women stay just to be supported. Ruling that out would be a key predictor, IMO.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Omegaa said:


> Hi
> 
> It is somewhat quite puzzling that you are discussing these on here with posters instead of discussing with your own Wife face to face.
> 
> *I thought your R has been going well.*


The bolded is the reason I am cautious approaching her with this. I don't want to overturn the boat. She's already jumpy over discussing anything to do with D. I guess I can avoid using the D word.



> If R has been going well on a surface without discussing important matters e.g. money then that's not a real R. R involves money matters whether we like it or not. You're obviously so AFRAID of her ruining your business and your livelihood at this point.


Hmmm... 



> If you want Post-Nup as a condition for R, I don't see that would be a problem. After all, you would like to have some reassurance that your MONEY would be protected if R hadn't worked out. It's best to do this whilst you are still separated.
> 
> To be quite frank, R may not work out. With P/N, you will be better protected than nothing. It's a bit like an insurance when you have an expensive Chinese vase and buy an insurance cover...


So you reckon it's fair? Well that's a different perspective. How do I propose a post-nup without making it look like I'm planning for a divorce because that's just going to get her all jumpy and argumentative.



turnera said:


> As long as you're not giving her money in the meantime, it's pretty good proof that she doesn't NEED you for support. Many women stay just to be supported. Ruling that out would be a key predictor, IMO.


She's still financially dependent on me and has access to our funds, and the only progress thus far is taking career counselling on top on her IC.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh yeah, I forgot. So when are you going to do what's right and tell her to go live on her own? SHE wanted out, let HER own her own responsibility. Give her a lump sum payment for 12 months and then back off. Cut off her access to ALL your funds until a legal decision is made.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

She doesn't want out, she used the D word but has taken it back and tried to stop our whirlpool from sinking our marriage while I was busy trying to end it because of her. She and our daughter for most of the week is living with her parents, and they are pretty much nagging at her senseless until she gets a job.

She's not spending much at all however, and has not given me a reason to cut funds. Furthermore she does discuss her spending with me. I'm cutting her off slowly, she's taking career counselling and I want to see her initiative without any pressure from my end. She told me she understands now that she needs to be more independent but I'm waiting for her to prove it. Hence my reluctance at anything hardcore for the moment.

Bringing up a post-nup in the midst of this has to be approached cautiously as well, just thinking of how to propose it now.

EDIT: Ah hell, I'm just going to do it and see her reaction. My brain can't keep it to myself anymore!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Update... just got off the phone. I don't believe this!

Well, she agreed to a post nup. No fight, no argument, she just turned around and said 'sure.' =/
She has something planned, how can she be so confident? It kinda scares me abit. We're meeting up tonight to do it, fking costs $30 to download a postnup agreement WTF!

Looks like it's battle stations tonight, ok guys, wish me luck. I hope this doesn't spell the end of things, but if it does then at least I would be able to answer the question that has been plaguing me - is she doing all of this to get back with me or is she doing all of this for financial security?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Update... well, she's not interested in my business. In fact, she didn't even ask for the house, like she was just following my lead when we went through it. We're splitting the value of the house... to tell you the truth with our current agreement she's getting the worse end of the deal financially but she doesn't even seem to care. I'm not signing anything yet though and we'll have to do it with our solicitors anyways. I told her to go see her solicitor first too because it seems she's rather clueless about how much she actually legally claim - that, or she truly doesn't care about my money.

Strange, she knows her parents won't be happy supporting her for long nor will the courts accept her being jobless, shouldn't she be already one step ahead when it comes to planning for divorce? I don't know...

What you guys think? =/


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think she's cheating on you. She's filled up on PEAs - from someone else. Once that happens, YOU don't matter.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

PIs have turned up nothing for years =/

What's PEA?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's that chemical high you get when you start dating someone, the one that makes you stupid and makes you think you're in love and the other person can do no wrong. It's biological and wears off after about 3 years. That's why affairs rarely last.

Did your PIs highjack her internet and phone? Half of affairs nowadays start on line.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

:scratchhead:

I still don't see the connection from her reaction to the postnup to her cheating.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Because her focus is off of you. Usually, for women, that means they're focused on someone else. Not always, but often. Women tend to latch onto one man at a time, unlike men who are more capable of just screwing a bunch of women and having no connection (generalization here, folks!). So if she really doesn't care what you're doing, my take is it's because she's happily nesting (at least in her mind) with someone else.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> I still don't see the connection from her reaction to the postnup to her cheating.


Me neither.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

*shrug*

Maybe there's nothing.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Heh well, I think I'll start to suspect if the sex becomes different.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

Tumera has a valid point.

You are not living together at present, I am assuming.

How long have you been separated, 3-4 months?

Usually (if not always) when the word D is used repeatedly during R, the one who brought that up may have someone else going. 

You previously mentioned that your spouse had sex addiction. I am not saying "your wife would be" but someone who has sex addiction would have high sex drive which their partner is unable/reluctant to meet. If someone is known to have high sex drive and more likely addicted to sex AND she/or he has far more free time during separation, chances are that she or he may be far more open to temptations.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Her sex addiction is tied to RD. it's how she feels love and for now she wants RD's love not someone else's. if that changes he will know because she will be different. At the moment she hasn't.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I found this today. I haven't read any of your thread, RD. I apologize if this has been covered or you already know this. I just wanted to provide something interesting I thought might help in some small way.

The Language of Love in Close Relationships | Psychology Today


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well, if my wife was to express/prove her love for me I don't think she could have done anything more. At least well, I now know for certain she's not materialistic, she wasn't in the past, and she isn't now, and I doubt she'll ever be really. We've signed the postnup, and she's getting the house, non-split, she did take good care of it and has after all increased its value. But the most important thing is that I get to keep my business! The strange thing is that she didn't even fight for anything I even had to insist she takes the darn house.

It's a big weight off my shoulders and quite frankly, I'm much more drawn to her now. Everywhere in my city the standards for "financial stability" is very high and utter materialism. She has very little competition, it's almost impossible to find a woman like that in the city. It's making the prospect of moving on not so enticing. I told her this today, after her continuing to seek reassurance that the postnup isn't part of my plan to divorce her or anything.

She asked me if it was a test later and I told her that it wasn't a test (hehe), and that we needed to discuss our finances, but that she has proven something to me regardless. She told me that I should know her by now, but I wasn't going to answer that... people change =/

Oh well, guess it's back to reconciliation. Thanks guys btw, it's time to put this behind me, no excuses for not working on our relationship now.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I knew your wife was like me. I could feel it. I don't care about money. I'm not materialistic - never have been never will be. I do however care about my husband. If he wanted a prenup/postnup I'd sign it. If he had a business I wouldn't take that either. I'm just not that kind of woman.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Yeah, guess I learnt lol

I guess I became very paranoid after being reminded of the attitudes of the majority of women in town in addition to my mother's marriage, many of her friends also very materialistic but they consider it "financial security" lol. It's quite ridicolous really, they want someone with a 6 figure salary at least and in a way they are rather jealous of my wife.

You would think that her telling everyone that she met me when I didn't have a career and how money isn't everything would inspire them to stop being so money-hungry and scaring off their dates but nooo! Lol
Personally I think standards with security should be there - I wouldn't want my daughter to be with a bum or a leech for example, but they are just ridicolous.

It made me wonder if this mentality has managed to find a home in my wife over the years, but I guess not. Guess by this time I should be believing her, and I believe her now. But with the constant external influences I guess I started to worry.


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