# Dig and Regret214's Q&A Thread



## SomedayDig

So, I decided since Regret had a 3 part story going and a lot of good questions were brought up in them, that it's possible some of those questions were answered but maybe not everyone saw the answers. Basically, I wanted to start a joint thread where Regret and I could answer anything about her affair and my uncovering of it, along with our current reconciliation and where we are in it.

As stated in my story thread, I only ask for respect for each of us. If anyone has any right to be pissed off at Regret, it is me. Please do not treat her poorly. Trust me, I get it. I'm the BS and if anyone is sensitive to what she did...well, that'd be me.

So ask away. I have a meeting to attend for a few hours and Regret is going to spend some time with the kids. I don't know if she'll be immediately available to respond to anything, but get those questions out anyways. We'll reply ASAP cuz this helps us more than you can imagine.

Dig


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## MAP

Dig, 

I thanked Regret and you on one of her threads, but I want to thank you directly. I think what you two are doing will help many people. 

You are undoubtedly a very strong man, and I suspect that these incredibly challenging events have probably further strengthened you. You have my respect and admiration. 

I am glad that your postings here are helping you. Could you explain a bit more about how it is helping?

Please keep posting.


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## morituri

Dig, the moderators have been coming down hard and banning even old time forum members when they crossed the lines of respectful treatment to both BS and WS that come here seeking help. But every so often, there is one member who can't hold his/her tongue and will make disrespectful comments that may not be caught by a mod and in that situation you, or other forum members, can report him/her. The mods will take action.


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## Regret214

MAP said:


> Could you explain a bit more about how it is helping?.


As for me, to have others challenge my actions and my words is an opportunity for self reflection in light of other view points. Hearing from other BS besides Dig also really solidifies the pain I have inflicted and the breadth of the affair.


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## strugglinghusband

You both will be helping more folks than you know by sharing your story.

I applaued you both for fighting for your marriage. 

"for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health"


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## DawnD

Dig -- being 4 months out, is it fair to say that you two are attempting to R? I asked about boundaries in your other thread, and was going to ask about the cheating boundary. What has been the agreement between you two if Regret should decide to cheat again?

Regret -- Might be good to tell us how this has affected your daily life right now. Checking in more with your H, limited communications with members of the opposite sex, etc, etc


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## Regret214

To put our past threads in one place......

*Regret214* (My Story...Part 1, Part 2, Part 3)

*SomedayDig* (My Side)


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## Regret214

DawnD said:


> Regret -- Might be good to tell us how this has affected your daily life right now. Checking in more with your H, limited communications with members of the opposite sex, etc, etc


I am sure that I will forget to mention something here, but my daily life is nothing of what it was 6 months ago or 10 years ago. 

I use a GPS tracker on my phone (self installed) and turn it on every time I leave the house. 

I rarely go anywhere alone....usually I bring one of the kids to the store with me....again, my choice to ease the stress on Dig. 

I check in regularly when I am out and about (work, store, appointment, meeting....). 

I don't automatically assume that I am going to do something, Dig and I discuss it before I do it. 

Dig and I do more together....every day mundane things. 

I don't have any communication with other men unless my H knows about it. 

Dig has full access to all my email accounts (personal and work) and my social network account.

Our electronic calendars are synced and we know who has what and when.

This was very difficult at first as I have always been very independent and borderline controlling. I have since let this go as I realize that it is essential for Dig's security and healing, building trust, keeping myself accountable, and just general communication which is vital in any healthy marriage.


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## Regret214

JB100 said:


> Who makes more money in the relationship? And if so is there a big income differential like SD makes $20K more or something?


This has varied over the years. When the affair first started we were probably equal. For a while he made more (10-30K more). Since October, I have been the only one with an income. Dig is starting a new career.


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## anonymouskitty

Regret, Dig as much as some people believe that you can't get past a major hurdle, I'd like to state that you can indeed do so if the both of you are willing to persevere and persevere and persevere.

Just want to wish you luck in R


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## cabin fever

Regret, 
did ANYONE else know about your A, besides you, and OM?

What was going through your mind as you were driving back home after being with OM?

Dig, 
I am a few more months out from our D-Day then you, but never the less, what is your biggest hurdle you are dealing with now, and what do you do to get past it? What can your wife do to help you with it?


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## Almostrecovered

JB100 said:


> Who makes more money in the relationship? And if so is there a big income differential like SD makes $20K more or something?


just an observation but based on the many threads you started I think you seek to find some sort of variables when plugged into a formula equates to infidelity or the ability to recover from infidelity

while there may be certain factors that will increase or decrease the likelihood of infidelity or the recovery of it, overall it is important to note that all walks of life have people who cheat, religion, income, race, gender, sexual preference, age, and so on

you aren't going to find some magic cheat proof marriage trick and R is an individual preference not always based on how many times the WS's had sex or if "I love you" was said or if one is a homemaker or if one is a teacher or if one is a garbage man.


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## daisygirl 41

Respect to you both.
This is an awesome thing you are doing.
I wish you well in your R
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

JB100 said:


> You are right AlmostRecovered, I just can't understand infidelity. Maybe if the other spouse was extremely neglectful, had an affair previously, or was a bad earner that contributed nothing to the household, I could understand but as it stands, I just can't understand.
> 
> I try to be formulaic at times so maybe that is where my questions come from.


you're in that "why why why" stage 

the answer is simple but unsatisfactory to a degree- It was nothing you did

if it was something you did then you at least feel like you could change it, but, alas, it isn't completely in your control as with many things in life


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## Acabado

Regret, It's basicaly copy/paste from one of your threads:

What's your story with infidelity? Have you ever cheated on boyfriends in the pasts? Overlaped relationship? What's your FOO story around infidelity? Was you cheated on anytime? What about using sex as coping/scape mechanism in the past? (I've read you used sex as self afirmation tool in your college days, maybe you feel it's the same as scapism frmo yuor awful dayly strugles)

About perception. I've read in your husband thread he felt was always to blame for every issue in the marriage, I asume because you told him so. Did you percieve him diferently as you entered in the affair, how did it progressed? Can you now separate "acurate" issues steming from him from maybe some fog induced demonization of him? The same question about you marriage in general would be interesting to read: Has changed someone the perception you had of the marriage before the affair started, while on it and now?

Did anyone beyond OM know about the affair while it was active? Did somene condone, encourage or covered for you?
Thanks again for sharing. Wish you the best


Dig, Do you feel Regret demonized you as a consequence of the affair? Cau you trace a shift of behavior towards you as she started cheating or in general? Did you notice some change between the first years and the latest 2 as the affair itself changed? Has Regret perception of you or the marriage changed after DDay?


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## seasalt

Mrs. Dig,

I don't like what you did. It makes me, a stranger to you, sad. My wife and children will tell you that I don't do sad well it always turns to angry.

However, I was thinking even before you and Mr. Dig's Q&A thread that you should find a way to regain your dignity. You gave it away and I think it will be necessary ingreedient for Mr. Dig to be able to regain his feelings for you and remain in your company.

What does it matter how many times you had sex with the OM? One time was too many. If Mr. Dig had calculated 36 and you said forty you will owe him an explanation for the other four. What happens if you decide it was fourteen more? Nothing good can come of your prostration before this forum. I understand your need to be open and remorseful but that effort should be for your husband's benefit not the desires of JB100, me or anyone else. Too often the posters here remind me of rubberneckers at accidents or people who have a collection of train wreck DVDs.

Your circumstances are very different from those of Betrayed1 and EmptyInside but you might benefit from how she has finally shown remorse and committment while in my estimation regaining her dignity.

My heartfelt good wishes for you and your family.


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## Regret214

cabin fever said:


> did ANYONE else know about your A, besides you, and OM?
> 
> *I confided in a friend about a year in. I unfortunately lied to her and told her it was over. She never told my H, but did share the information with mutual friends.*
> 
> What was going through your mind as you were driving back home after being with OM?
> 
> *Dig has asked me this question many times. My state of mind in general was warped. But I can say that I had anxiety about covering myself and making sure I knew my story when I got home. I would usually over talk when I got home....over compensating to cover my guilt. *


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## In_The_Wind

Do yall attend MC or are you both in IC ?? also what program are you using as far recovery is it mb ? or something similar ??


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## Regret214

Acabado said:


> What's your story with infidelity? Have you ever cheated on boyfriends in the pasts? *No*
> Overlaped relationship? *No*
> What's your FOO story around infidelity? *I have been learning a lot over the past few years. My grandmother cheated on my grandfather, and I have suspicions about my father.*
> Was you cheated on anytime? *Yes. It was very painful.* What about using sex as coping/scape mechanism in the past? *Yes. In college as a need for attention.*
> (I've read you used sex as self afirmation tool in your college days, maybe you feel it's the same as scapism frmo yuor awful dayly strugles) *I would agree with this*
> 
> About perception. I've read in your husband thread he felt was always to blame for every issue in the marriage, I asume because you told him so. *Yes I did*
> Did you percieve him diferently as you entered in the affair, how did it progressed? *No, my perceptions were false and continued*
> Can you now separate "acurate" issues steming from him from maybe some fog induced demonization of him? *Oh, absolutely!*
> The same question about you marriage in general would be interesting to read: Has changed someone the perception you had of the marriage before the affair started, while on it and now? *I don't know what you are asking here...please clarify.*


I apologize for my quick responses. Dig just got home and I want to find out how his meeting went. I would be happy to elaborate on any/all of this if you'd like.


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## cledus_snow

> I use a GPS tracker on my phone (self installed) and turn it on every time I leave the house.
> 
> I rarely go anywhere alone....usually I bring one of the kids to the store with me....again, my choice to ease the stress on Dig.
> 
> I check in regularly when I am out and about (work, store, appointment, meeting....).
> 
> I don't automatically assume that I am going to do something, Dig and I discuss it before I do it.
> 
> Dig and I do more together....every day mundane things.
> 
> I don't have any communication with other men unless my H knows about it.
> 
> Dig has full access to all my email accounts (personal and work) and my social network account.
> 
> Our electronic calendars are synced and we know who has what and when.


no offense, but isn't this "babysitting?"

who signs up to play warden just because their spouse can't seem keep their hands to themselves?


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## SomedayDig

JB100 said:


> Who makes more money in the relationship? And if so is there a big income differential like SD makes $20K more or something?


*I used to make more money, and I totally get the basis of your question. I can honestly say, from my point of view, that financials didn't make a difference in her affair or in our choice of reconciliation. Regret answered the money part for me.*



cabin fever said:


> Dig,
> I am a few more months out from our D-Day then you, but never the less, what is your biggest hurdle you are dealing with now, and what do you do to get past it? What can your wife do to help you with it?


*My biggest hurdles are actually when that spectre called infidelity taps me on the shoulder and shows me mind movies. I f'ng HATE that. To get over it, I usually try to think of something else. Or I go out to my garage and hit my heavy bag. However, like today, driving home from my meeting, I had to go past the hotel that I found the receipt from. It triggered me a bit. So, I texted Regret with a question about it. She answered and that helped.*



Acabado said:


> Dig, Do you feel Regret demonized you as a consequence of the affair? Cau you trace a shift of behavior towards you as she started cheating or in general? Did you notice some change between the first years and the latest 2 as the affair itself changed? Has Regret perception of you or the marriage changed after DDay?


*First question: Yes. She demonized me to family and friends. Not in a horrific way and not to all of them, but she confided in a few of them that she was unhappy with me. That I wasn't "upholding my husband stuff around the house" and other things. As far as really tracing a point and time, I have to say no. I think this is because I was away from home so much that I simply didn't notice when the change happened. I can say that in the last couple years I definitely noticed her become more agitated with me over what I thought were little things. She had talked about MC about 2 years ago, and even though I was flying all over the place, she blamed me for not procuring the MC. Even though she was home every day and had the number of several MC's to choose from. Since Dday, I can say the one thing that Regret finally saw in me was the strong dude that she fell in love with so many years ago. She saw the man who would have no problem standing in front of a loaded gun for her and our kids and fight til my dying breath. The respect that she stripped from me so long ago...the respect that SHE covered up with her own sh_t was finally revealed when I caught her. I think having her eyes and mind reopened has helped her and me tremendously.*



In_The_Wind said:


> Do yall attend MC or are you both in IC ?? also what program are you using as far recovery is it mb ? or something similar ??


We started MC a week after Dday and continued for a few months. To be honest, it got stale for me because, honestly, there were times the MC said things like "You don't really need to know those details" or "Oh, so you told the xOM's wife what happened because you wanted to punish him". Ummm...no on both counts. She is a good IC for Regret I feel, though but I feel I got to a point of spinning wheels. I went to IC back in the 90's when dealing with all my childhood stuff and my ex-wife's cheating. I have a pretty decent grasp on the makeup of ol' Dig and I haven't lost that grasp despite this new light of crap I find myself in. As far as a program, we have looked at all of them and again, I'll be honest and say they all have a basic tenant: Communication. I think that Regret and I both fully realized that our communication was severely lacking and noticing that and reversing that has made all the difference.


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## SomedayDig

cledus_snow said:


> no offense, but isn't this "babysitting?"
> 
> who signs up to play warden just because their spouse can't seem keep their hands to themselves?


I totally see where you're coming from. I think babysitting would be if I demanded that she turn on her GPS or take the kids or check in every half hour or any plethora of things. Instead, my gaining trust in her began _because_ she started doing these things without my prompting.


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## cledus_snow

i don't want to split any hairs, but the fact remains you have to be vigilant. 

the _need_ to do it is what i'm getting at....._who signs up for that?_

what that says is- "I CAN'T TRUST YOU!!!"


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## In_The_Wind

Hi SD I feel that MC is good if you have a therapist that has alot of experience in this area and yes i hear a good number of them tend to rugsweep or take sides although I agree they do help re-establishing communication from reading yalls stories your ws has done a lot of heavy lifting what things have you done or tried to do for your side of the fence ?? also they say that most healthy relationships require a minimum of 10 hours spent with the spouse doing things together with no outside distractions such as kids , cell phones , etc just you and her so to speak have yall started in this area ?? and if so what types of things are you guys doing to bring closeness or feelings of when yall first started dating ?? for example i love riding motorcycles so my wife wanted one and so we bought her a bike,and attended the mc riders safety courses together and regularly go on rides with friends and mc clubs and its a blast have yall considered doing something as a hobbie together ???


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## anonymouskitty

cledus_snow said:


> no offense, but isn't this "babysitting?"
> 
> who signs up to play warden just because their spouse can't seem keep their hands to themselves?


The ones that are committed to reconciliation.


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## cledus_snow

tell me this, then... if they told you you'd be playing "warden" before ever getting married, would you agree?


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## anonymouskitty

We rarely play the parts that we signed up for wouldn't you agree with that my good man?
And the script keeps changing ever so often that you don't really no what part you'll be playing tomorrow


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## SomedayDig

cledus_snow said:


> i don't want to split any hairs, but the fact remains you have to be vigilant.
> 
> the _need_ to do it is what i'm getting at....._who signs up for that?_
> 
> what that says is- "I CAN'T TRUST YOU!!!"


*I hear ya. In the beginning I was obsessed with tracking her. Today, she just left with my daughter for gymnastics. I haven't had any inkling at all to check the GPS or anything. Hell, for that matter, I can't tell you the last time I checked her emails or the cell company to follow up on texts sent/received.*



In_The_Wind said:


> Hi SD I feel that MC is good if you have a therapist that has alot of experience in this area and yes i hear a good number of them tend to rugsweep or take sides although I agree they do help re-establishing communication from reading yalls stories your ws has done a lot of heavy lifting what things have you done or tried to do for your side of the fence ?? also they say that most healthy relationships require a minimum of 10 hours spent with the spouse doing things together with no outside distractions such as kids , cell phones , etc just you and her so to speak have yall started in this area ?? and if so what types of things are you guys doing to bring closeness or feelings of when yall first started dating ?? for example i love riding motorcycles so my wife wanted one and so we bought her a bike,and attended the mc riders safety courses together and regularly go on rides with friends and mc clubs and its a blast have yall considered doing something as a hobbie together ???


*Very cool! Well, let's just say that I'm in a MC (motorcycle club) that is pretty big, but I can't comment on that as I and Regret would easily be outted. Let's just say its a pretty big Club. I've been riding for 25 years and have been in that culture quite a long time. Regret learned to ride just last year and I gave her one of my old scoots. This Sunday our kids go away for a week with my in-laws. Regret and I already have plans for a few nice rides while they're gone as yes...we need a recharge every now and again without the kids around. We have also had her mother and sister out to the house (they live 200 miles away so its a big deal) and we went on a weekend away. Yes. Being together during this time without worrying about the kids is a big deal. And if we can do it on motorcycles it just makes it that much better. Yeah, its nice to chat while we drive in the car, but I'd rather smell the air and talk during a fuel stop or her smoke break!!*



anonymouskitty said:


> The ones that are committed to reconciliation.


Eeeeeyup. I ain't skeered!


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## SomedayDig

cledus_snow said:


> tell me this, then... if they told you you'd be playing "warden" before ever getting married, would you agree?


As a cynic...no. As a realist, the question would never come up.


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## cabin fever

Regret, 
its pretty similar to what my FWW did. She also confided in 1 person. And she did the same things after she was with OM. I didn't pick up on it, till after the fact. 


Dig, 
I feel ya brother. My garage is my man cave. I have SERIOUSLY though about a punching bag in there, and I think you just pushed me over the top. I have been keeping myself busy for the past 6 months. Entire house is remodeled, and I am 3/4 of the way through redoing the outside. 


good luck you 2.


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## SomedayDig

cabin fever said:


> Dig,
> I feel ya brother. My garage is my man cave. I have SERIOUSLY though about a punching bag in there, and I think you just pushed me over the top. I have been keeping myself busy for the past 6 months. Entire house is remodeled, and I am 3/4 of the way through redoing the outside.
> 
> 
> good luck you 2.


Dude...I am telling ya...having that punching bag is a God send. I can't tell you how many times I have gone out there immediately when I feel that sh_t rising in my body and punched it out. Literally within 30 seconds I feel better and I can go back and talk to Regret with less, shall we say, animosity! Plus, as part of the A-diet that most of us go on, I lost 20 pounds and wanted to make use of it in a positive way. I go to the gym 3 times a week and haven't felt my body this hard in over a decade. Hell, my workout today, for once I really looked at my body while doing curls. My shoulders looked like coconuts with veins popping out of them and my biceps looked pretty blasted! Do NOT let this crap that we deal with as a BS bring your body down. USE it to get your body back!

Edit: By the way my heavy bag is a 100 pound one. When I'm pissed and hit it, I am amazed sometimes at how far out it swings from me. Scary to think if that was xOM's face.


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## cledus_snow

well... what more is there to say. 


not that anyone deserves being cheated-on, but it especially sux when it happens to cool people. dig, you're one of the cool ones. 

more power to ya.


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## SomedayDig

cledus_snow said:


> well... what more is there to say.
> 
> 
> not that anyone deserves being cheated-on, but it especially sux when it happens to cool people. Dig, you're one of the cool ones.
> 
> more power to ya.


I sincerely appreciate that comment Cledus. It does suck pretty f'ng much that she was such an idiot in her choices. However, here we are. I think she knows she's only got one shot.


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## Regret214

SomedayDig said:


> I sincerely appreciate that comment Cledus. It does suck pretty f'ng much that she was such an idiot in her choices. However, here we are. I think she knows she's only got one shot.


Yes I do! And through hell or high water I will get it right. Wait....this is hell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Regret214 said:


> Yes I do! And through hell or high water I will get it right. Wait....this is hell.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hang tough, Babe. We have a lot of work to do and I ain't going anywhere just yet. Yeah, the last 4 months have been Hell, but I'd rather be here today, than where we were the day before Dday.


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## Regret214

SomedayDig said:


> Hang tough, Babe. We have a lot of work to do and I ain't going anywhere just yet. Yeah, the last 4 months have been Hell, but I'd rather be here today, than where we were the day before Dday.


I concur, Babe. I just noticed the irony in what I was saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Okay...let's not get gay in our thread. Yeah. Thanks.

:rofl:


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## In_The_Wind

SomedayDig said:


> Okay...let's not get gay in our thread. Yeah. Thanks.
> 
> :rofl:


The PC response is "Not that there is anything wrong with that" - Seinfield


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## iheartlife

I have a question. First, some background.

My H had a 4.5 year affair. DD#1 was Feb 2009, I found a secret email acct open on our computer. We went to MC for 6+ mos, affair rugswept by MC from day 1. My H secretly broke NC about 3 weeks after DD#1. Three years later, Feb 2012, my H accidentally texted me instead of her. That was DD#2.

My H broke it off, we started MC again (great MC that truly understands infidelity). We are reconciling and doing quite well.

My H has said that the affair had an arc,that while intense at first, it had slacked off. They met in person less than once a month, for ex. He said this made it much easier to walk away on DD#2.

So my question to Regret is whether that is true for you, whether the affair was on a downward arc that made it easier to end. Maybe it was much more intense at the start but became less so as time passed.

The reason I ask is that I know many people pity me (or think I'm crazy forgiving this) but actually I often feel sorry for BSs who are trying to stop fairly young affairs. I know it's harder to stop then, heck, my own H broke NC. The difference is, I didn't know to verify, expose, etc. 3 years ago.

Thanks for making this thread available, although like my own marriage, your R is rather new and only time will tell if we all have long-term success.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife

I should add I had no idea the affair was still on during the intervening years, although our marriage wasn't that great, surprise, surprise, since he was still in the affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214

iheartlife said:


> So my question to Regret is whether that is true for you, whether the affair was on a downward arc that made it easier to end. Maybe it was much more intense at the start but became less so as time passed.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Heart, Thank you for posting your story. It is helpful to understand where others are coming from in order to address their questions.

What your H experienced was definitely true for me. The beginning of the affair was much more intense than the end. Committing to NC has been a non-issue for me. Although I did not have the personal courage to really end it, the A was dead long before Dday. It had become a routine and did not satisfy my needs.


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## workindad

Then why continue? I'm trying to understand. You could have stopped when the fun wore off.


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## Regret214

All I can say is the I was weak. I was unhappy in my marriage and didn't know what to do. I lived inside of a shell, not addressing any of my emotions or needs. I felt powerless.

Basically, I was a [email protected]#g jerk!


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## iheartlife

Regret, my H also could not break it off on his own, obviously.

He also seems to realize now the superficiality of the relationship, because they were always careful to show their positive sides, and to avoid argument. Curious if you feel the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

I just want to note that Regret might not be back on tonight. See, even though we seem to have a lot of our sh_t together, things are still very difficult and raw. It was our usual, nightly deck talk time and we talked about some deep stuff. Regret cried and showed a lot of remorse as we spoke. It was very painful to listen to and watch her go through it. I could only offer encouraging words to help her through. She needed a break and just left for a drive and some alone time. I don't now what time she'll be back. Yes, sometimes even as the BS, we should be empathetic to the impact on our WS, too.


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## Acabado

Regret is one of the bravest WS I've met the last 2'5 years I've being obsessively reading and trying to understand.


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## DawnD

SomedayDig said:


> I just want to note that Regret might not be back on tonight. See, even though we seem to have a lot of our sh_t together, things are still very difficult and raw. It was our usual, nightly deck talk time and we talked about some deep stuff. Regret cried and showed a lot of remorse as we spoke. It was very painful to listen to and watch her go through it. I could only offer encouraging words to help her through. She needed a break and just left for a drive and some alone time. I don't now what time she'll be back. Yes, sometimes even as the BS, we should be empathetic to the impact on our WS, too.


 It will happen Dig, and most of us who are years ( some even months) out from Dday know the ride you two are on. Some days will seem great, the next day may be devastating to one or both of you. Let Regret know that she doesn't have to have her sh** together all the time, neither do you. Coping is messy, and everyone deals with it the best they can.


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## SoulStorm

I guess it is hard to look into the mirror and see the monster you became.
It is almost like turning into a werewolf and having vague recounts of whats happening while you let the wolf take control.
Then turning back into you and looking at the damage done.

These questions surely took her back to some painful realizations and truly must be hard for her to answer and then know she did all this.
She's Brave..but yet very scared. Scared of herself and very sorry for hurting you.

Consequences of infidelity have no favor...everyone pays who gets caught in it's vacuum.

I wish you both blessings.


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## SomedayDig

Regret and I just had a good 2 hour long conversation and are pretty worn out from it. It ended well. If well means breaking down into tears to each other and being okay with that. I did come to a humongous realization at the end that really got to the both of us. However, I am not going to post it here, because some may not read it. I'm going to start a new thread real quick on this one point because I feel it is that poignant. We'll be back tomorrow and we truly appreciate everyone's support.
Dig


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## Badblood

Regret214 said:


> All I can say is the I was weak. I was unhappy in my marriage and didn't know what to do. I lived inside of a shell, not addressing any of my emotions or needs. I felt powerless.
> 
> Basically, I was a [email protected]#g jerk!


OK, let me get this straight. Your marriage didn't satisy you, so you had an affair, then your affair didn't satisfy you, so you returned to your marriage. See a pattern developing here? Did you ever consider the other parties in these equations? It seems to be all about your needs, doesn't it.


----------



## morituri

Rhetorical questions, if you wish, from *Not Just Friends*

1. What did you say to yourself that gave you permission to get involved?

2. After the first time you had sex, did you feel guilty?

3. How could it go on so long if you knew it was wrong?

4. Did you think about Dig at all?

5. What did you share about you and your husband?

6. Did you talk about love or about a future together?

7. What did you see in the OM?

8. What did you like about yourself in the affair? How were you different?

9. Were there previous infidelities or opportunities, and how was this time similar or different?

10. Did you have unprotected sex?


----------



## Badblood

BTW, even though I respect both you and Regret and the work you are doing, I DO NOT hope you can reconcile. What I DO hope is that BOTH of you can learn to live happy, guilt-free, loving lives, whether it is together or separate. I feel that in many (even most) cases, R is not going to ever be complete, even with all of the goodwill in the world. Real life isn't like Disney, some bad things happen and can never be recovered from. I think that most posters truly want to hear stories with happy endings, BS'S and WS's and OP's included, but seldom does it ever happen.


----------



## Bellavista

Badblood said:


> BTW, even though I respect both you and Regret and the work you are doing, I DO NOT hope you can reconcile. What I DO hope is that BOTH of you can learn to live happy, guilt-free, loving lives, whether it is together or separate. I feel that in many (even most) cases, R is not going to ever be complete, even with all of the goodwill in the world. Real life isn't like Disney, some bad things happen and can never be recovered from. I think that most posters truly want to hear stories with happy endings, BS'S and WS's and OP's included, but seldom does it ever happen.


It does happen, for some couples. I am going to say it takes a hell of a lot of committment from both parties. It takes support from family & friends & most of all, it takes time. It is also not for everyone, sometimes the situation is so toxic you have to walk away. Some people make the choice they cannot trust the WS again. We cannot make the judgement call for other people.
Both the BS & the WS need to be mindful of the emotional roller coaster of their spouse, they need to understand when the other wants to discuss something painful.
We did our r 10 years ago, we did not go to MC, but worked through it ourselves with help from those around us.


----------



## Regret214

Badblood said:


> OK, let me get this straight. Your marriage didn't satisy you, so you had an affair, then your affair didn't satisfy you, so you returned to your marriage. See a pattern developing here? Did you ever consider the other parties in these equations? It seems to be all about your needs, doesn't it.


As painful as it is to admit....I was only thinking of my needs. I was unhappy all around. One of the things I have learned about myself is that I have spent my whole life trying to control my feelings and emotions. To the point of not letting myself feel. This is a longer issue I will face in IC, but I selfishly shut down the emotions that didn't serve me. What a messed up way to live....


----------



## DawnD

Regret214 said:


> As painful as it is to admit....I was only thinking of my needs. I was unhappy all around. One of the things I have learned about myself is that I have spent my whole life trying to control my feelings and emotions. To the point of not letting myself feel. This is a longer issue I will face in IC, but I selfishly shut down the emotions that didn't serve me. What a messed up way to live....


Have you stumbled upon what WILL make you happy Regret? I am taking it that you now understand that happiness comes from within, and that no one else can make and keep you happy all the time. What is it that will get you to be happy with yourself and your life?


----------



## SomedayDig

DawnD said:


> What is it that will get you to be happy with yourself and your life?


I will wait patiently for this answer...


----------



## DawnD

SomedayDig said:


> I will wait patiently for this answer...


Good, cause its a hard question LMAO. As a BS it took me months to realize exactly what I needed, and took my H about the same to know what he needed from me. The difference was that I was comfortable telling him what I wanted and needed, and he felt like he didn't deserve anything from me. Was like pulling teeth to get him to open up at first.


----------



## Regret214

morituri said:


> Rhetorical questions, if you wish, from *Not Just Friends*
> 
> 1. What did you say to yourself that gave you permission to get involved? *I told myself I was unhappy in my marriage, and the xOM seemed to be filling some needs that weren't being met by my H. It wasn't a conscious choice at the time....my response here is the result of reflection.*
> 
> 2. After the first time you had sex, did you feel guilty? *Yes, without a doubt.*
> 
> 3. How could it go on so long if you knew it was wrong? *Please read my previous post about self destructive emotional control.*
> 
> 4. Did you think about Dig at all? *I did. I broke off the A frequently in hopes of fixing the issues at home. But being the coward I was, I didn't do anything to fix what was wrong. I ended up giving in again to the xOM .*
> 
> 5. What did you share about you and your husband? *I didn't share much. The xOM knew I wasn't happy, but I didn't provide any details.*
> 
> 6. Did you talk about love or about a future together? *Honestly, no. There was no discussion of our 'relationship'. I was the w***re that the xOM needed...I didn't ask for any more.*
> 
> 7. What did you see in the OM? *In the beginning, he showed me attention. The attention I missed from my H. He was charming.*
> 
> 8. What did you like about yourself in the affair? *There is really nothing I liked about myself.* How were you different?*I am learning that it is OK to talk about how I feel and that its OK to acknowledge when you messed up. *
> 
> 9. Were there previous infidelities or opportunities, and how was this time similar or different? *There was a kiss between me and another guy at a bar. There was inappropriate flirting on GNOs. Needless to say, there will no longer be any GNOs. Not just because I have been weak, but because regardless of who you are, nothing good can come from that.*
> 
> 10. Did you have unprotected sex? *Yes. I have answered this question previously.*


----------



## SomedayDig

For me...sorry, but GNO is nothing more than wanting to cheat. Maybe not always doing it, but honestly...married chicks getting together to go to a bar for fun? What good could possibly come from that?! I asked Regret about this when all this crap came down. She initially minimized GNO time until I posed one simple question: Okay, so you girls go out and chat guys up in a bar. Did you intend to introduce me to any of them and have us all become friends?

Yeah. I thought not.


----------



## anonymouskitty

Infidelity is kind of like a barter of goods if you will, in your case you traded sex seeking emotional fulfillment perhaps a thing which your husband himself could've given you had you revealed your unhappiness to him, and the OM showed you attention so that he could get his sexual needs fulfilled from you.

Most LTAs are like any other relationships, in the beginning you're all hot and heavy and then the ardour starts cooling down and the affairs end, but since your affair lasted 5 years and you were apparently disinterested( I don't wish to use the word bored) in him or the affair itself, what prompted you to keep going back for more??? And does this indicate that the OM was more interested in pursuing the relationship or did the both of you come to an agreement of sorts where the affair was a means to escape from reality of your situation??


----------



## Regret214

iheartlife said:


> Regret, my H also could not break it off on his own, obviously.
> 
> He also seems to realize now the superficiality of the relationship, because they were always careful to show their positive sides, and to avoid argument. Curious if you feel the same.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. My relationship with the xOM was very superficial. There was nothing discussed on an intimate level. I never let him see me and he never let me see him.


----------



## Regret214

Acabado said:


> Regret is one of the bravest WS I've met the last 2'5 years I've being obsessively reading and trying to understand.


Thank you. I don't feel brave, however. I simply feel that I am taking a good look at who I am and trying to understand my actions. In all truth, I am scared of what I will find.


----------



## SoulStorm

Is answering these questions helping you Regret..some are very difficult and can be triggering.


----------



## Regret214

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *Regret:*
> 
> You say you were unhappy in the marriage, and that is when / why the affair happened. *Yes. I had a false perception of the state of my marriage. I was unwilling to really see what the issues were. I laid blame on Dig for all the problems, not recognizing my own contributions to the issues we were having. In addition, I lied to myself about what really mattered to me and what I needed.*
> 
> Logically, throughout the duration of the affair, this unhappy state of marriage must have continued (it is unlikely that while you were having an affair, you would allow the marital status to improve, even if your husband, sensing behavioural changes in you, tries to revamp his act – because that would deepen your guilt). *There were glimpses of happiness between Dig and me, but they were a false reality. Until I was willing to see what was really wrong, there was no way that our marriage was going to improve. Dig was not at fault for the problems in our marriage. There were many circumstances that led to our mutual unhappiness that until recent I did not recognize.*
> 
> Now, he is the same person more or less, right? It is just that you fell in love with his strength and supportive nature again. *It is you who changed the way you looked at him. Right? He IS the same person. I was blind to who he was (and who I was) for many years. I had to take off the glasses made of lies in order to see him (and me) again.
> 
> That man you now love again was standing there all along, right?*


Dig never left. He was right there, all the time. I just didn't see it and didn't want to see it.


----------



## Regret214

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Reconciliation Fog.



There are most certainly times of elated bliss, but I would not say that we are in a fog. We are living our marriage day-by-day....facing the hard truth, questions, and answers as they come. Some days are easier than others....yesterday was tough. But what we do agree on is that we will face the ups and downs TOGETHER. If at any time Dig can't do it anymore, he will leave. I am perfectly aware of that and respect that. If I were in his shoes, I would have left.


----------



## anonymouskitty

Regret214 said:


> If at any time Dig can't do it anymore, he will leave. I am perfectly aware of that and respect that. If I were in his shoes, I would have left.


This is the best gift that you could give him. I commend you Regret, you're doing what most other WSs would shudder to even contemplate once they're out of their affair fog


----------



## Regret214

DawnD said:


> Have you stumbled upon what WILL make you happy Regret? I am taking it that you now understand that happiness comes from within, and that no one else can make and keep you happy all the time. What is it that will get you to be happy with yourself and your life?


I am working on that. I knew my happiness came from within when Dig and I met, fell in love and married. Somewhere along the way I lost sight of this. I resisted needing him for anything, and along the way lost my support system and lost myself. Current struggles with guilt and self loathing restrict my self esteem, but am working on how to use them to serve me in a positive way.


----------



## DawnD

Regret214 said:


> I am working on that. I knew my happiness came from within when Dig and I met, fell in love and married. Somewhere along the way I lost sight of this. I resisted needing him for anything, and along the way lost my support system and lost myself. Current struggles with guilt and self loathing restrict my self esteem, but am working on how to use them to serve me in a positive way.


 Glad to hear it. Well, the last part that is LOL. Sometimes the answers are right in front of us, other times it takes a while to figure out. Hope it can come to you soon, remember not to rush yourself into anything, take your time and get it right


----------



## Regret214

anonymouskitty said:


> Most LTAs are like any other relationships, in the beginning you're all hot and heavy and then the ardour starts cooling down and the affairs end, but since your affair lasted 5 years and you were apparently disinterested( I don't wish to use the word bored) in him or the affair itself, what prompted you to keep going back for more??? And does this indicate that the OM was more interested in pursuing the relationship or did the both of you come to an agreement of sorts where the affair was a means to escape from reality of your situation??


This was the nature of our conversation last night. I don't wish to elaborate much right now, but will say that the OM pursued the relationship more persistently. I gave him sex without strings....the perfect OW.


----------



## Regret214

SoulStorm said:


> Is answering these questions helping you Regret..some are very difficult and can be triggering.


You are right...some are very difficult. But for me as the WS, the triggers are helpful at this point to fully comprehend my actions and communicate better with Dig.


----------



## anonymouskitty

Regret, I can understand your self loathing and loss of self esteem but don't make it your reality for the rest of your life because if you can't forgive yourself eventually you will drive your husband away not by your faithlessness but by your unhappiness


----------



## Regret214

anonymouskitty said:


> Regret, I can understand your self loathing and loss of self esteem but don't make it your reality for the rest of your life because if you can't forgive yourself eventually you will drive your husband away not by your faithlessness but by your unhappiness


Oh, I know. But I am not ready to forgive myself just yet.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

Sorry, but this is a tough question, Regret, if Digg did not find out would you still be in the Affair, considering that you did not end it and that you had not addressed your own emotional issues?


----------



## badbane

Regret At what point did you reach the point of no return? When or what was it that made you get off the yellow brick road so to speak.


----------



## Regret214

rrrbbbttt said:


> Sorry, but this is a tough question, Regret, if Digg did not find out would you still be in the Affair, considering that you did not end it and that you had not addressed your own emotional issues?


I have answered this question previously, but yes.


----------



## Regret214

badbane said:


> Regret At what point did you reach the point of no return? When or what was it that made you get off the yellow brick road so to speak.


I have some thoughts floating through my mind right now, but will have to give this question some thorough analysis. I cannot give you anything definitive at this point. But, thank you for posing such a challenging question that is important to understand.


----------



## Acabado

> Thank you. I don't feel brave, however. I simply feel that I am taking a good look at who I am and trying to understand my actions. In all truth, I am scared of what I will find


I believe most people, for a million individual reasons, are not willing/able to face the music nor face the mirror. Most people avoid or run. That's my experience in life, I recognize bravery when I see it so no problem to tell it demands it consistently.

Want to thank you for your answers to my earlier post. The latest question was pporly worded, English is not my language, bu you mostly answered them though other members posts.

A last question, I admit is harsh: Did you bring OM home from the very beginning? (It's mostly curiosity, even I suffered the same treatment with my wife I don't share the common opinion it requieres an special level of evilness/cruelty/lack of empathy).


----------



## Regret214

Acabado said:


> I believe most people, for a million individual reasons, are not willing/able to face the music nor face the mirror. Most people avoid or run. That's my experience in life, I recognize bravery when I see it so no problem to tell it demands it consistently.
> 
> Want to thank you for your answers to my earlier post. The latest question was pporly worded, English is not my language, bu you mostly answered them though other members posts.
> 
> A last question, I admit is harsh: Did you bring OM home from the very beginning? (It's mostly curiosity, even I suffered the same treatment with my wife I don't share the common opinion it requieres an special level of evilness/cruelty/lack of empathy).


yes....only because of the convenience of it. Dig was regularly out of town and it was the only possibilit that was available ay the time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Quote:
> _What did you say to yourself that gave you permission to get involved? *I told myself I was unhappy in my marriage, and the xOM seemed to be filling some needs that weren't being met by my H.* It wasn't a conscious choice at the time....my response here is the result of reflection._ unquote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Regret: A side-note / reminder:
> 
> A husband CANNOT meet the SAME needs met by an affair partner. His very stature as husband (long-term partner = boredom + routine) contraindicates it.
> 
> Once married / committed, it is COMPARATIVELY unreasonable to expect the husband to fulfil those needs (needs that we say are met by the Other Man) -- considering that, fundamentally we all are polygamous, and might want to keep a harem each, if given a chance without social stricture.*
> 
> A certain level of sexual restraint is an inherent aspect of marriage -- because in a marriage, we have to combine respect with sexuality.


I understand what you are saying, and I don't disagree with you. However, I failed to express my needs to my H, therefore he was rendered powerless because he didn't know what I needed. Hence, communication is of utmost importance in a marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I will also add. that Dig is far from a typical man in his empathetic nature. Luckily, our son inherited this trait. Our daughter, on the other hand, is more like me...she and I will have to talk extensively as to how to best manage her need for independence.


----------



## cledus_snow

don't you think these FOO "issues" only go so far? i mean, everybody has issues- including myself -but most of us don't go seeking solace in the arms of another.

i just think these "issues" get blown way out of proportion sometimes. almost like a free pass to [email protected]#$ up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> _
> 
> 
> Regret214 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some days are easier than others....yesterday was tough. But what we do agree on is that we will face the ups and downs TOGETHER. If at any time Dig can't do it anymore, he will leave. * I am perfectly aware of that and respect that. If I were in his shoes, I would have left.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Regret214 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that.
> 
> *Please try to tell us: WHY is HE not leaving?*(In your view / from where you stand).
> 
> *Because it is not logical for an outsider such as I to believe:
> 
> - that he is staying just to prove a point ('I am so macho that there is no challenge I cannot face / no problem I cannot solve').
> 
> or
> 
> - that he is staying just because he loves you so much.
> 
> or
> 
> - that he is staying because he truly believes this genie can be pushed back into the bottle.
> 
> WHY, do you think?*
> (now, I am asking from an academic point of view).
> 
> 
> 
> Why did Dig not leave? I believe that he still believed in our marriage. He saw the A as a symptom of a larger issue. I believe that he loves me, unconditionally. But, by saying this I don't believe that I will ever get another chance if I fail to respect him and our marriage again. I don't feel worthy of the chance I have already been given.
Click to expand...


----------



## Regret214

cledus_snow said:


> don't you think these FOO "issues" only go so far? i mean, everybody has issues- including myself -but most of us don't go seeking solace in the arms of another.
> 
> i just think these "issues" get blown way out of proportion sometimes. almost like a free pass to [email protected]#$ up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I totally agree with you. I have FOO issues, but by no means would use them to rationalize my choices. But, they are present, nonetheless, and we have to view them and understand them to truly understand ourselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostCPA

I haven’t posted on here in a while, but I found your threads and was drawn in. I have a few questions. 
For Regret:
First, my xWW was unfaithful for a number of years and she claims, like you that it was purely physical and just an escape from reality. For her it was multiple partners. How was the physical part of your marriage during your affair? Did frequency decrease, remain unchanged, or increase? I always found it interesting that our frequency remained unchanged. I also found it extremely disturbing that our frequency remained unchanged (2-3x per week) during all those years.

Next, How can you be sure that you will not revert back to that cheater when things get really tough again? My xWW reacted exactly like you after she was caught. But, it wasn’t long before the stress of recovery got to her and she reverted back to what was comfortable to her. I see a lot of her in you (the coldness of your affair, the lack of empathy for OMW and kids) and it really concerns me that there may be some deep seated personality issues that allow you to disassociate with your emotions during times of stress that will likely require a lot of IC to address.

Finally, I don’t even know if it’s legal in your state, but have you considered giving Dig a post-nuptial agreement giving him all marriage assets and sole custody of the kids should he ever catch you cheating again and decide to end the marriage? Dig seems like a very reasonable and compassionate man so I doubt he would actually leave you with nothing, but it might be a huge gesture to show him how serious you are. 

Dig, hang in there. You have some dark days ahead. Personal recovery comes in stages. When you least expect it those raw emotions from DDay will jump up and consume you all over again. Just be ready for them. I applaud your efforts to move on. It was just way too much for me and I moved straight to divorce. It’s been final for 6 months now and my xWW and I are just starting to rebuild some kind of relationship outside of co-parenting. Who knows, we may end up remarried someday. But, I needed that clean break to be able to heal and move forward.


----------



## Beowulf

cledus_snow said:


> tell me this, then... if they told you you'd be playing "warden" before ever getting married, would you agree?


Cledus, you've said this before in multiple threads.

Do you agree with the statement that there should be no privacy in a marriage because every little decision each spouse makes affects the other spouse in some way? If not then please explain to me why someone should be able to keep things secret from their spouse. Give me an example or examples.

If you do agree that there should not be privacy in a marriage please explain the difference between no privacy and being open to receiving information?

And just for laughs please help me understand what type of work should go into a marriage to make it happy and fulfilling for both spouses? Isn't the process of communication and the willingness to receive that communication an integral part of a good marriage?

Oh and just so this post would not be considered a thread jack.

A question and a comment.

Dig and regret, don't you feel that renewing your vows this early is too soon? By my calculations that would only be about 6-7 months after D-Day. It usually takes years to truly recover from infidelity in a marriage.

My comment. Regret, you said in one of your threads that you will always have to live with the knowledge that Dig will never fully trust you again. Many on here will disagree with me but this is simply not true. I trust Morrigan completely. It is true that my eyes have been opened to the fact that anyone, if they are not vigilant, can fall into the pit of infidelity and no one is truly immune to selfish and callous behavior. That said my marriage is now a conscious one. We still have that level of communication that you are now experiencing. We still have the transparency and openness that we established after our D-Day. There is simply no room for either of us to keep secrets or deceive each other. And because we continue to be consciously aware of our thoughts and feelings and readily share with each other I know that our trust in each other is strong. Its not a blind trust, its an informed trust.


----------



## Beowulf

SomedayDig said:


> For me...sorry, but GNO is nothing more than wanting to cheat. Maybe not always doing it, but honestly...married chicks getting together to go to a bar for fun? What good could possibly come from that?! I asked Regret about this when all this crap came down. She initially minimized GNO time until I posed one simple question: Okay, so you girls go out and chat guys up in a bar. Did you intend to introduce me to any of them and have us all become friends?
> 
> Yeah. I thought not.


Actually, its interesting you bring this up. I was reading a post in a blog and a study was quoted that showed married women on a GNO act more flirty and promiscuous than single women. Its almost like when they are with like minded women they feel they can let it all flow with no restraint. GNO are a bad idea at any time let alone if there is instability in the marriage.


----------



## DawnD

Beowulf said:


> Dig and regret, don't you feel that renewing your vows this early is too soon? By my calculations that would only be about 6-7 months after D-Day. It usually takes years to truly recover from infidelity in a marriage.


I have wondered that as well. We just renewed our vows, and we are almost 3 years from Dday.


----------



## Beowulf

DawnD said:


> I have wondered that as well. We just renewed our vows, and we are almost 3 years from Dday.


We just recommitted on July 4th of this year more than 20 years since our D-day. Of course we could have done it much sooner but I never really trusted Morrigan until just this year (said with tongue planted firmly in cheek).


----------



## SomedayDig

LostCPA said:


> When you least expect it those raw emotions from DDay will jump up and consume you all over again. Just be ready for them.


Ohh...you mean like they just did?

Thursday night golf league. I subbed a couple years back and had a lot of fun. My cousin is one of the ones in charge so a spot was always open for me to play. This year, since I left flying, I could commit to playing full time. So, I did. I needed something for ME time. I love Regret and the kids, but let's face it - I needed ME time. I hadn't played in the league in 2 years and I forgot one big thing.

In the group that played after my league is one of the guys from the gang. As a matter of fact, its the good ol' college frat buddy BFF of the xOM.

And they BOTH were there.

I think I almost drank my entire Jack and Coke in one swallow to avoid walking over to where the xOM stood. I had actually stood up from my seat when I saw him and my hand was on my 8 iron.

One of the guys that I had just played with saw the look in my eyes and literally said, "Dig! Hey! Brother...come back to us."

I would have been in jail tonight. I'm glad I'm home. But I'm f'd up right now.


----------



## SomedayDig

Renewal of vows. Yep, seems early. Unless, you're starting over. Then, to us it seems perfectly logical. But that's just our take on it and probably not all that popular. Then again, I've never run with that crowd


----------



## DawnD

SomedayDig said:


> Renewal of vows. Yep, seems early. Unless, you're starting over. Then, to us it seems perfectly logical. But that's just our take on it and probably not all that popular. Then again, I've never run with that crowd


 I think this is why all of this makes me nervous Dig. recommitting to each other, sure. But to have a vowel renewal before you are fully healed worries me. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it feels like you are trying to rush the reconciliation, and these types of things don't happen on a schedule. (obviously you know that LOL)


----------



## Beowulf

SomedayDig said:


> Renewal of vows. Yep, seems early. Unless, you're starting over. Then, to us it seems perfectly logical. But that's just our take on it and probably not all that popular. Then again, I've never run with that crowd


When you meet someone you date, you court, you get to know that person over a long period of time. Then when you feel ready to settle down with that person you get engaged. After a time you set a date and get married.

You are just getting to know the new Regret. She is just getting to know the knew Dig. Face it, you are both different people. An affair changes you, sometimes for the better, sometimes not. You yourself don't know the changes you have gone through and what effect they will have on you. Regret is still in IC and admits she is still trying to discover how to make herself happy. Both of you have expressed a determination to make this work but each of you have also intimated that you are prepared if it doesn't.

I'm not telling you what to do and you're correct that everybody is different and each R writes its own story. But I want you to look at the above post about running into the xOM and think long and hard if you are ready to renew your vows. You want the new marriage to start of on a solid foundation. Make sure you have it before you jump into anything until you're ready.


----------



## Regret214

LostCPA said:


> How was the physical part of your marriage during your affair? *I was very withdrawn from Dig. I did not want to have sex with him. I viewed it as I resented him and was unhappy, but the fact was that I had pulled away from him and didn't want to let him in. Even when I hadn't seen the OM in weeks, I was still unwilling to be intimate with my H.*
> 
> Next, How can you be sure that you will not revert back to that cheater when things get really tough again? *I don't know if anyone can say with 100% certainty that they will never cheat. I certainly didn't think I was capable of it, myself. But I do intend on rebuilding my relationship with Dig with a new understanding of myself and what I am capable of and be vigilant of that. When we first married, I will admittedly say that I was naive of what marriage was going to be like. I neglected to realize that it requires a lot of work, both in good times and in bad. That realization may be late, but God willing, not too late. In addition, I am hopeful that IC will enable me to comprehend myself in a way that I will be able to see the warning signs of withdrawal before I make the same stupid choices I have previously made.*
> 
> Finally, I don’t even know if it’s legal in your state, but have you considered giving Dig a post-nuptial agreement giving him all marriage assets and sole custody of the kids should he ever catch you cheating again and decide to end the marriage? Dig seems like a very reasonable and compassionate man so I doubt he would actually leave you with nothing, but it might be a huge gesture to show him how serious you are. *This is an interesting concept, one that Dig and I will have to discuss.*


Thank you for joining our conversation. I hope that we can provide you with help as needed and that your perspective will be helpful to us.


----------



## SomedayDig

Beowulf and Dawn, I totally hear what you guys are saying. I promise I do and I'm not discounting them at all. Beowulf, you have a Tolkien quote for your signature. I have loved him since I was young. I used his books to escape the wrath of my home life and delved deep into his worlds. I live by one of his quotes. I always have.

"Law pain i reviar mistar aen."

"Not all who wander are lost."


----------



## Beowulf

SomedayDig said:


> Beowulf and Dawn, I totally hear what you guys are saying. I promise I do and I'm not discounting them at all. Beowulf, you have a Tolkien quote for your signature. I have loved him since I was young. I used his books to escape the wrath of my home life and delved deep into his worlds. I live by one of his quotes. I always have.
> 
> "Law pain i reviar mistar aen."
> 
> "Not all who wander are lost."


Its so ironic you mention that quote. I obviously love Tolkien as well and that quote makes me think of Morrigan and all the other remorseful fWS who have been able to get themselves back on the right path. They did wander but weren't lost so long as they had us to guide them back.


----------



## SomedayDig

Beowulf said:


> Its so ironic you mention that quote. I obviously love Tolkien as well and that quote makes me think of Morrigan and all the other remorseful fWS who have been able to get themselves back on the right path. They did wander but weren't lost so long as they had us to guide them back.


So, if I had to be the beacon that barely got through the fog to get Regret back to port, is that such a bad thing?

I don't think so.

I am fully prepared to take on whatever happens. If, in the end, we remain together then that will be a great thing. If it doesn't, then I am prepared to deal with that if the time comes.


----------



## Beowulf

SomedayDig said:


> So, if I had to be the beacon that barely got through the fog to get Regret back to port, is that such a bad thing?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> I am fully prepared to take on whatever happens. If, in the end, we remain together then that will be a great thing. If it doesn't, then I am prepared to deal with that if the time comes.


No, its a great thing even if you don't stay together because you will both be better people for trying and you will each know yourselves much better. Just make sure that you allow yourselves and each other to fully experience and work through all the steps necessary to successfully move on. When it comes to successful reconciliations, haste most definitely makes waste.


----------



## Badblood

SomedayDig said:


> So, if I had to be the beacon that barely got through the fog to get Regret back to port, is that such a bad thing?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> I am fully prepared to take on whatever happens. If, in the end, we remain together then that will be a great thing. If it doesn't, then I am prepared to deal with that if the time comes.


Regret, with all due respect, I don't feel that you are being completely honest about your affair. You have repeatedly stated that there was no emotional connection with the OM, but I feel that is not true. Your affair was 5 years long, I have never heard of an affair that lasted that long, in which there was not SOME kind of emotional bond between the WS and OM, and I feel that you need to address this issue with a proper IC and also with Dig. If you are evading the truth, then how will renewing your vows make anything different? Dig, I'm glad that you are aware that R is not the only answer here. It is more important for BOTH of you to come out of this crisis, as better people.


----------



## warlock07

No beowulf did not have an affairr


----------



## warlock07

SomedayDig, how do you come to terms with the realization that your wife was sexually more open with the OM than she ever was with you? If she says that she never was, I would have a hard time believing it and it would contradict her own claims that it was a purely sexual affair. And it wouldn't be the first time that a WW lied about the extent of their sexual activities to save the BS from more pain(in their mind). You think they were doing missionary for 5 years ?

I apologize for the mind movies. But like some other posters, I think there are still some secrets left.



> I was very withdrawn from Dig. I did not want to have sex with him. I viewed it as I resented him and was unhappy, but the fact was that I had pulled away from him and didn't want to let him in. Even when I hadn't seen the OM in weeks, I was still unwilling to be intimate with my H.


That is because you were loyal to your AP. Again holes in the "just sexual affair" Regret. Maybe not as emotional as in "We are soulmates" level, but definitely emotional.


----------



## carpenoctem

warlock07 said:


> No beowulf did not have an affairr


*Beowulf: mea culpa. Please forgive me.*


----------



## LostCPA

I agree. There was definitely an emotional component. Just sex means that it was just about physical gratification. It may not have been emotional as in having feelings for OM. But it was emotional on Regret’s end because she used it to escape her pain. 

Dig, one more comment on anger. Obviously you get angry when you are triggered by people or places associated w/ the affair. But, the anger I was speaking of will come at you from out of the blue. There will be no trigger, it will just hit you and you will be angry and frustrated at Regret even though she is doing everything right at that time. It’s like someone just flipped a switch in your brain. I mention this because you are fast approaching one of those times. If you read enough threads on TAM, you will find that between 4-6 months form dday is a very common time for this to happen. You will get through it, just know that it is normal.

To echo what Beowulf posted to you, please don’t be in a rush to R. You may think you are different, but at some point, we all realize that we are not. The typical R from an affair is about 2 years. It is normally even longer when the affair was LT. You both have a long way to go and a lot to learn about yourselves and what your new relationship will look like. I would suggest that give some serious thought to waiting on the vow renewal until you are both fully healed and you can stand up together knowing that all of the healing is complete. I would discourage someone from getting married 4 months after they met and in essence, you and Regret have just met. You need to get to know the new you’s. Why rush?


----------



## Regret214

Let me try to clarify here, for you and for me.....

I certainly had an emotional connection to my H. The emotions that I felt were negative towards him. I blamed him for everything that was wrong in my life. I know NOW that those feelings were misplaced...... I did not want to have sex with my H because I was angry with him. I felt that I was doing everything and having sex was just one more thing I was expected to do. I recall even telling him this. Needless to say, a very messed up view, but I did not feel an obligation to the AP to be faithful with him.

With the AP, I didn't have an emotional connection. Good or bad. It was truly an escape from my perceived reality. It was a place that I had the control. I was not, however, the all out, no holds barred sexual partner. I did not encourage experimentation, nor did the AP. Although 5 years, there was not that level of comfort between us. There was always a wall....perhaps because we didn't really get to know each other and as for me, I am not going to experiment unless there is some trust. I cannot tell you how the AP viewed our 'relationship'. We never discussed it. He seemed content at the level of our sexual relationship and didn't ask for more and I didn't offer.

I feel like I am rambling....I'm still trying to figure out how to describe this. Putting my feelings into words is a very difficult thing for me. I'm getting better at it, but please bear with me.


----------



## warlock07

So the OM and you never discussed the exact nature of your relationship? Say in the post coital bliss?( sorry for the mind movie Somedaydig). Not even once? What did you guys talk about then?


----------



## SomedayDig

I'm gonna be in my angry place here for a moment, so bear with me and I apologize in advance.

Read my words carefully here. Everyone. My anger towards the xOM IS perfectly logical. He f'd my wife. You don't do that and think for a f'ng moment that I'm not going to hate you with every fiber of my being. Every molecule. If I see him in person again, I again will be triggered and want to F his life up in a very violent way because he f'd my wife.

Got it?!

As for the whole misplaced anger on him when I should be angry with Regret. Well, who the F said I WASN'T angry with her?! I am extremely angry with her. I just show that anger in a different way. I am not violent physically with Regret. I would never think of harming one hair on her. That said, I think I have been pretty violent with words. Words that none of you have heard. Only Regret heard them. And I can tell you that a punch in the face is gonna hurt for a few days when I do it...but my words last a whole fck of a lot longer.


----------



## cabin fever

dude, I get EVERYTHING you are saying. Our situations are so similar is pretty scary really. 

You are a better man then me, I don't think I could have controlled myself. The only time I have come face to face (kinda) with the POS OM, is driving down the interstate. I was getting on, when he drove by, and INSTANTLY knew it was him. I drove my azz off to catch up to him, got right beside him, and then........wait for it.........TOOK HIS PICTURE with my phone. Stupid Azz didn't know who I was at first. He quickly figured it out, when I told him I wanted to rip his phucking arms off, and beat him to death with them. I was so F'n enraged it was scary, and I am sure if he would have pulled over one of us would have been arrested, and the other taken to the hospital. 

Dam bro, if you were close I'd buy ya a beer. 

Good luck dude.


----------



## sunshinetoday

SomedayDig said:


> I'm gonna be in my angry place here for a moment, so bear with me and I apologize in advance.
> 
> Read my words carefully here. Everyone. My anger towards the xOM IS perfectly logical. He f'd my wife. You don't do that and think for a f'ng moment that I'm not going to hate you with every fiber of my being. Every molecule. If I see him in person again, I again will be triggered and want to F his life up in a very violent way because he f'd my wife.
> 
> Got it?!


Hello I am enjoying both of your threads. Very helpful to many folks here I think. Anyhow I wanted to say about the anger towards the OW/OM, I still have it too (however I am not violent in any way) and since I didn't beat her down on DDay-that was my only chance to really do it, and I was in such shock..oh well. So about hating her- I think I always will. 
I don't care how people say let go it consumes you. Listen my H did his heavy lifting, apologized, made amends, and we totally reconnected. I have forgiven him. The OW was a coward and not to mention a wh*re who knew he was married. And who also came fishing after over a year of NC. I will never forgive her, I will never stop hating her with every fiber of my being. And I consider myself a very happy person who has had a truly successful R. I don't dwell on her, rarely think about her-- but I will not forget her name and I will periodically check up on her and smile every time I hear about how she is still living her same sad pathetic prescription drug addicted life.


----------



## DawnD

SomedayDig said:


> I'm gonna be in my angry place here for a moment, so bear with me and I apologize in advance.
> 
> Read my words carefully here. Everyone. My anger towards the xOM IS perfectly logical. He f'd my wife. You don't do that and think for a f'ng moment that I'm not going to hate you with every fiber of my being. Every molecule. If I see him in person again, I again will be triggered and want to F his life up in a very violent way because he f'd my wife.
> 
> Got it?!
> 
> As for the whole misplaced anger on him when I should be angry with Regret. Well, who the F said I WASN'T angry with her?! I am extremely angry with her. I just show that anger in a different way. I am not violent physically with Regret. I would never think of harming one hair on her. That said, I think I have been pretty violent with words. Words that none of you have heard. Only Regret heard them. And I can tell you that a punch in the face is gonna hurt for a few days when I do it...but my words last a whole fck of a lot longer.



I am so sorry that something that was supposed to be relaxing turned out to be so stressful. I think you are completely right to be angry with the xOM, as long as you realize that he really didn't owe you anything. That was Regret. She made the commitment to you, she is the one who broke it.


----------



## lisab0105

DawnD said:


> I am so sorry that something that was supposed to be relaxing turned out to be so stressful. I think you are completely right to be angry with the xOM, as long as you realize that he really didn't owe you anything. That was Regret. She made the commitment to you, she is the one who broke it.


I will never agree with the statement the AP didn't owe the BS anything...as human beings with the knowledge of right and wrong, the ability to use common sense and portray human decency...yes that man did OWE Dig the courtesy of not screwing his wife..in his own house much less. The second he knew she was married, he owed it to Dig and to his own family to back off. The second he took part in an extramarital affair with someone else that was married, he became just as culpible as Regret. 

I sure as he** feel that way about the two-bit skank that screwed my man...I will always feel thay way about every single person that knowingly goes to bed with a committed person. They are bottomfeeders.


----------



## DawnD

lisab0105 said:


> I will never agree with the statement the AP didn't owe the BS anything...as human beings with the knowledge of right and wrong, the ability to use common sense and portray human decency...yes that man did OWE Dig the courtesy of not screwing his wife..in his own house much less. The second he knew she was married, he owed it to Dig and to his own family to back off. The second he took part in an extramarital affair with someone else that was married, he became just as culpible as Regret.
> 
> I sure as he** feel that way about the two-bit skank that screwed my man...I will always feel thay way about every single person that knowingly goes to bed with a committed person. They are bottomfeeders.


 I absolutely do not feel my H's AP owes me anything. She didn't commit to me, marry me, any of that. My husband did that, and he is the one that I hold responsible. I think Dig might have more expectations of the OM since they knew each other, but I also think putting anger towards the OM/OW is a waste of energy. But its all a matter of opinion.


----------



## happyman64

Dig,

I was a pilot for awhile. Took a big hit on my eye sight due to Diabetes but I know that I loved to fly.

I know you said you were a commercial pilot.

Did you give up that profession before or after D-Day?

Did you do it in an effort to save your marriage?

Do you still have that passion for flying?

Just curious.

HM64


----------



## Almostrecovered

I owe the OM a knuckle sandwich but he hasn't come to collect it


----------



## Regret214

warlock07 said:


> So the OM and you never discussed the exact nature of your relationship? Say in the post coital bliss?( sorry for the mind movie Somedaydig). Not even once? What did you guys talk about then?


Honestly, NO! It was an unspoken understanding that we were just meeting to satisfy some need....never addressed what those needs might have been for either of us. We did talk about work, kids, world events, but our conversations remained very distant from our own personal lives. He never got to know me nor I him.


----------



## Beowulf

carpenoctem said:


> *Beowulf: mea culpa. Please forgive me.*


No worries. There are so many stories, so many people looking for answers. Its easy to get them confused.


----------



## Beowulf

SomedayDig said:


> I'm gonna be in my angry place here for a moment, so bear with me and I apologize in advance.
> 
> Read my words carefully here. Everyone. My anger towards the xOM IS perfectly logical. He f'd my wife. You don't do that and think for a f'ng moment that I'm not going to hate you with every fiber of my being. Every molecule. If I see him in person again, I again will be triggered and want to F his life up in a very violent way because he f'd my wife.
> 
> Got it?!
> 
> As for the whole misplaced anger on him when I should be angry with Regret. Well, who the F said I WASN'T angry with her?! I am extremely angry with her. I just show that anger in a different way. I am not violent physically with Regret. I would never think of harming one hair on her. That said, I think I have been pretty violent with words. Words that none of you have heard. Only Regret heard them. And I can tell you that a punch in the face is gonna hurt for a few days when I do it...but my words last a whole fck of a lot longer.


Believe it or not that's very healthy at this stage. This makes me feel better that you aren't rugsweeping and trying to get through this too fast. Just take your time to really process everything and not dismiss it. I think you are both on the right track.


----------



## Beowulf

Regret214 said:


> Honestly, NO! It was an unspoken understanding that we were just meeting to satisfy some need....never addressed what those needs might have been for either of us. We did talk about work, kids, world events, but our conversations remained very distant from our own personal lives. He never got to know me nor I him.


Regret, you need not respond to this. I believe that you are answering truthfully from the place that you are at right now. However, you may find out during IC that you had more feelings for him than you may remember or are willing to admit to yourself. Those feelings may have waned over a 5 year period so that when it finally ended you felt very little for him. But if you were meeting up with him to fill a need it was probably an emotional one at least in part. So there had to have been some connection with him.

Edit: Don't struggle to answer right now. It would be almost impossibly difficult at the stage you are at right now. Most don't want to hear about how hard the fWS has it during R but I know it is very hard to wrap your head around all that happened. Just take your time and work through it at your own pace. Don't rush through anything.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hi I don't have any questions yet, just read this thread, wish you both good days to come from now on yet know there will be more bad ones. I know how hard this is I truly do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

Wulf, Thanks for your input and support.


----------



## Badblood

Regret214 said:


> Honestly, NO! It was an unspoken understanding that we were just meeting to satisfy some need....never addressed what those needs might have been for either of us. We did talk about work, kids, world events, but our conversations remained very distant from our own personal lives. He never got to know me nor I him.


Regret, in 5 years you never interacted emotionally other than sex, with the OM? Ridiculous! You are rug-sweeping, bigtime. For whatever reason, ( to avoid more guilt or to keep from hurting Dig more)you are withholding a very important component of your affair from Dig. If you are truly sincere about R, you NEED to open up about your emotional involvement with the OM. You owe it to Dig and yourself to be completely honest. If you are having a dificult time facing this issue, get IC to help you get to the bottom of it. Your R is in great danger of becoming a "false", R, if you can't give 100% honesty to your husband. He deserves to know everything and anything about your affair, including your emotional bonds with the OM. Dig, you are not nearly ready to renew your marriage vows, until all of your questions have been answered. Remember, rug-sweeping and trickle-truthing have destroyed a lot of marriages that could have survived the original infidelity.


----------



## Beowulf

Badblood said:


> Regret, in 5 years you never interacted emotionally other than sex, with the OM? Ridiculous! You are rug-sweeping, bigtime. For whatever reason, ( to avoid more guilt or to keep from hurting Dig more)you are withholding a very important component of your affair from Dig. If you are truly sincere about R, you NEED to open up about your emotional involvement with the OM. You owe it to Dig and yourself to be completely honest. If you are having a dificult time facing this issue, get IC to help you get to the bottom of it. Your R is in great danger of becoming a "false", R, if you can't give 100% honesty to your husband. He deserves to know everything and anything about your affair, including your emotional bonds with the OM. Dig, you are not nearly ready to renew your marriage vows, until all of your questions have been answered. Remember, rug-sweeping and trickle-truthing have destroyed a lot of marriages that could have survived the original infidelity.


BB, have you noticed that you and I tend to say the exact same things but from different directions? I just had to laugh when I thought of that.


----------



## Regret214

Badblood said:


> Regret, in 5 years you never interacted emotionally other than sex, with the OM? Ridiculous! You are rug-sweeping, bigtime. For whatever reason, ( to avoid more guilt or to keep from hurting Dig more)you are withholding a very important component of your affair from Dig. If you are truly sincere about R, you NEED to open up about your emotional involvement with the OM. You owe it to Dig and yourself to be completely honest. If you are having a dificult time facing this issue, get IC to help you get to the bottom of it. Your R is in great danger of becoming a "false", R, if you can't give 100% honesty to your husband. He deserves to know everything and anything about your affair, including your emotional bonds with the OM. Dig, you are not nearly ready to renew your marriage vows, until all of your questions have been answered. Remember, rug-sweeping and trickle-truthing have destroyed a lot of marriages that could have survived the original infidelity.


I have discussed with Dig how I felt about the OM. I didnt, however discuss my feelings with the OM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

And, IC will help me understand and communicate this better to Dig.


----------



## warlock07

Regret214 said:


> Honestly, NO! It was an unspoken understanding that we were just meeting to satisfy some need....never addressed what those needs might have been for either of us. We did talk about work, kids, world events, but our conversations remained very distant from our own personal lives. He never got to know me nor I him.


What need? Obviously it wasn't emotional wasn't sexual, it wasn't emotional, then what was that need? Humiliating your spouses ? maybe your H needs to listen to the other version Paul was talking about. 

Not that you need me to, but I don't believe you. Either you are lying to yourself or you are lying to all of us. Beowulf put it in a much kinder way. If Somedaydig was telling us about the details of your affair, no one would have believed him. To be honest, these are most standard lies a WW tells her H after the D-day. 

"It wasn't emotional, it was sexual. Even then it was not sexual, but we still had sex for 5 years. And we would have continued if H hadn't caught us." You statements are crumbling under their own weight.

With due respect, you seem to describe these encounters as something you had to do as a part of your profession. (I did read an interview of an escort from Australia(legal there). She was married and she and her bf would describe her encounters as such)


----------



## Badblood

warlock07 said:


> What need? Obviously it wasn't emotional wasn't sexual, it wasn't emotional, then what was that need? Humiliating your spouses ? maybe your H needs to listen to the other version Paul was talking about.
> 
> Not that you need me to, but I don't believe you. Either you are lying to yourself or you are lying to all of us. Beowulf put it in a much kinder way. If Somedaydig was telling us about the details of your affair, no one would have believed him. To be honest, these are most standard lies a WW tells her H after the D-day.
> 
> "It wasn't emotional, it was sexual. Even then it was not sexual, but we still had sex for 5 years. And we would have continued if H hadn't caught us." You statements are crumbling under their own weight.


Exactly, Warlock. If it wasn't a NEED ( either sexual or emotional) , then what was it? Dig needs to be vvvvvvvery careful. I see red flags all over the place.


----------



## anonymouskitty

I think a part of your problem stems from the fact that your promiscuity during your younger days was a direct result of very low self esteem and the very fact that you're going around in circles in your explanations,as warlock pointed out, proves that you may have indeed just had the affair as a source of validation, I'm of the opinion that you based your entire self worth on your having the affair which was why you could dump the OM so easily without experiencing withdrawal that even serial cheaters experience


----------



## warlock07

Badblood said:


> Exactly, Warlock. If it wasn't a NEED ( either sexual or emotional) , then what was it? Dig needs to be vvvvvvvery careful. I see red flags all over the place.


Without looking it in black and white, this is a possible grey area and Regret does not truly know the answer. I hope she finds the true answers though.


----------



## DawnD

Regret --- is it possible that at first you like the attention and flattery. Then when you both agreed you had to stop, you like that he chased you? Again, the attention that you got from him?


----------



## warlock07

anonymouskitty said:


> I think a part of your problem stems from the fact that your promiscuity during your younger days was a direct result of very low self esteem and the very fact that you're going around in circles in your explanations,as warlock pointed out, proves that you may have indeed just had the affair as a source of validation, I'm of the opinion that you based your entire self worth on your having the affair which was why you could dump the OM so easily without experiencing withdrawal that even serial cheaters experience


Validation ? That she is having an affair with the rich guy in their group? Was OM a ladies favorite before the affair?

Regret, do you think OM's money(and his position) a source of your attraction ? (Sub-conscious or otherwise)


----------



## anonymouskitty

No. she says she slept around during her younger days and there's only one reason for that poor self image, and something tells me that poor self image never really improved but was covered up when she realized that she wasn't really improving her value by getting more notches in her bedpost but was doing the very opposite

Regret was this one of the reasons?


----------



## warlock07

anonymouskitty said:


> No. she says she slept around during her younger days and there's only one reason for that poor self image, and something tells me that poor self image never really improved but was covered up when she realized that she wasn't really improving her value by getting more notches in her bedpost but was doing the very opposite
> 
> Regret was this one of the reasons?


I meant why this OM in particular ? Did she feel better that she was having the OM as the affair partner ? Was he one of the better "catches" in the group?


----------



## the guy

Why did Digs almost get arrested?


----------



## warlock07

Beowulf said:


> Warlock I respect you greatly but that last post wasn't nice. Dig doesn't need that. He's still hurting.


Deleted. But my intention was talking about standard WW lies during R. I guess it did not come across at such . Lost in translation.


----------



## SomedayDig

I asked one simple thing in the beginning here: Respect. If anyone gets to blast or say nasty kind of stuff to Regret, it's me. I started this thread as a means to be able to "talk" to both of us in the same place so that things wouldn't get muddied up. However, I do not want anyone "talking" with poor manners to my wife...which, despite everything and what a lot of people may wish was different...she STILL is. 

I'll let Regret answer the question about why she "chose" the xOM over anyone else. She's told me the reason, but I'm not speaking for her.

Guy...I almost got arrested because I was about 50 yards away from the xOM last night with an 8 iron in my hand. He would have had a very bad night and was literally 10 seconds from it. Lucky for him, I had someone snap me out of it.


----------



## SomedayDig

DawnD said:


> Regret --- is it possible that at first you like the attention and flattery. Then when you both agreed you had to stop, you like that he chased you? Again, the attention that you got from him?


Sorry, Regret, but I'm gonna answer to this one. You can, too, but I get to answer from my pissed off place today.

Yeah. She loved it. The whole "we can't do this" was a f'ng cover and just one more type of foreplay in my interpretation. That may be pretty harsh to her, but it is what it is. All it did was heighten the fck fest.


----------



## DawnD

SomedayDig said:


> Sorry, Regret, but I'm gonna answer to this one. You can, too, but I get to answer from my pissed off place today.
> 
> Yeah. She loved it. The whole "we can't do this" was a f'ng cover and just one more type of foreplay in my interpretation. That may be pretty harsh to her, but it is what it is. All it did was heighten the fck fest.


I don't want to trigger you Dig, if you need me to delete the question I can do that  

The question was meant to show her how it did compel her emotional side first, which is what I think the other posters are trying to get out of her.


----------



## SomedayDig

No, Dawn...you don't need to delete it. We've talked about it before. I'm just in one of my bad place times today. It happens. She's heard me say worse to her face. A lot worse.


----------



## DawnD

You are most certainly allowed bad days and places. I had more of those than I can count. Are you recovering from seeing the OM last night? Might be a good day to pop in a comedy and have a few laughs.


----------



## SomedayDig

DawnD said:


> Are you recovering from seeing the OM last night?



Pretty much. When I decided to play in the league with my cousin, it was a joint decision that Regret and I made. She knows how much I enjoy golf and she knows how much I enjoy playing. We decided it would be a good way for me to have some time away each week doing something outside that I enjoy.

Well, that f'ng ruined it a ton last night.


----------



## Beowulf

SomedayDig said:


> Sorry, Regret, but I'm gonna answer to this one. You can, too, but I get to answer from my pissed off place today.
> 
> Yeah. She loved it. The whole "we can't do this" was a f'ng cover and just one more type of foreplay in my interpretation. That may be pretty harsh to her, but it is what it is. All it did was heighten the fck fest.


What you describe is extremely common. Unfortunately.

Its just one more step on that slippery slope.


----------



## Beowulf

Regret, I know most of these questions are hard. Some may trigger feelings in you that you would rather not feel. But many times if you see the questions as an opportunity for self exploration you may find that TAM can be very therapeutic. While it may not replace counseling it certainly can serve to enhance it.


----------



## SomedayDig

Beowulf said:


> Regret, I know most of these questions are hard. Some may trigger feelings in you that you would rather not feel. But many times if you see the questions as an opportunity for self exploration you may find that TAM can be very therapeutic. While it may not replace counseling it certainly can serve to enhance it.


That is why WE decided to do this. Most of the times, things that are posted here are talked about during our deck time.


----------



## DawnD

SomedayDig said:


> Pretty much. When I decided to play in the league with my cousin, it was a joint decision that Regret and I made. She knows how much I enjoy golf and she knows how much I enjoy playing. We decided it would be a good way for me to have some time away each week doing something outside that I enjoy.
> 
> Well, that f'ng ruined it a ton last night.


 Do you want to know something dumb about me? I will tell you anyway. I was so mad one day, and I couldn't really figure out what it was that made me mad, so I screamed at the top of my lungs at my husband " I just want to break all your effing toes!" My h looks at me and asks "Why my toes?" I was so mad that he was trying to make sense of it that I screamed back " Because you scream like a little b**ch when you stub them, so imagine if I broke them all!" Then laughter ensues. Yeah, not my best moment LOL.


----------



## SomedayDig

LOL Dawn! That's funny stuff.

There is one other thing I'm dealing with, too. Our kids are going to my in-laws for a week on Sunday. They did the same thing last year, too. I thought it was great for Regret and I last year, because I was home for most of the week (only 1 trip at the end of the week). One year ago tonight, we went to get some tattoo work done by a friend of mine and we had a great time and had dinner and drinks afterwords. The next day. The next f'ng day, I followed her to work while she rode her motorcycle as she had just gotten her license. When she came home, she hung out for a bit, but we didn't go out to dinner because she was going to visit one of her work colleagues. 

It wasn't her work colleague she went to see. 

I realize that is one out of almost 40 times, but because I know the date since it was OUR f'ng week together to hang out and we were having such a "good" time together and whatnot...THAT is just one more thing I am dealing with. One year ago tomorrow, she was at his house banging away while I sat on the couch waiting for her to get home.

F'ng sucks.


----------



## Beowulf

SomedayDig said:


> That is why WE decided to do this. Most of the times, things that are posted here are talked about during our deck time.


Would it be interesting for you to know that 20 years later Morrigan and I are still having those conversations on a daily basis. Not about her affair and not always about our marriage. But we still take time to schedule these talks. It became a way for us to always maintain that special connection and make sure we always stay on the same page. Its a good habit to get into and one that will carry you through the rough times.


----------



## the guy

cool.

I mean it sucks you triggered but the xOM got what he diserved.... an angry husbend ready to take a club to his @ss.

I think it makes a clear statement IMHO.


----------



## DawnD

SomedayDig said:


> LOL Dawn! That's funny stuff.
> 
> There is one other thing I'm dealing with, too. Our kids are going to my in-laws for a week on Sunday. They did the same thing last year, too. I thought it was great for Regret and I last year, because I was home for most of the week (only 1 trip at the end of the week). One year ago tonight, we went to get some tattoo work done by a friend of mine and we had a great time and had dinner and drinks afterwords. The next day. The next f'ng day, I followed her to work while she rode her motorcycle as she had just gotten her license. When she came home, she hung out for a bit, but we didn't go out to dinner because she was going to visit one of her work colleagues.
> 
> It wasn't her work colleague she went to see.
> 
> I realize that is one out of almost 40 times, but because I know the date since it was OUR f'ng week together to hang out and we were having such a "good" time together and whatnot...THAT is just one more thing I am dealing with. One year ago tomorrow, she was at his house banging away while I sat on the couch waiting for her to get home.
> 
> F'ng sucks.


 I think this year is too soon for you two to reclaim any triggers and dates that will trigger you, but the good news is that I have a thought, and its actually rational. Why not look online and try doing something neither of you have ever done before. rafting, boating, something that is a little bit away from home and active so you are more focused on what you are doing than what the day is.


----------



## Beowulf

SomedayDig said:


> LOL Dawn! That's funny stuff.
> 
> There is one other thing I'm dealing with, too. Our kids are going to my in-laws for a week on Sunday. They did the same thing last year, too. I thought it was great for Regret and I last year, because I was home for most of the week (only 1 trip at the end of the week). One year ago tonight, we went to get some tattoo work done by a friend of mine and we had a great time and had dinner and drinks afterwords. The next day. The next f'ng day, I followed her to work while she rode her motorcycle as she had just gotten her license. When she came home, she hung out for a bit, but we didn't go out to dinner because she was going to visit one of her work colleagues.
> 
> It wasn't her work colleague she went to see.
> 
> I realize that is one out of almost 40 times, but because I know the date since it was OUR f'ng week together to hang out and we were having such a "good" time together and whatnot...THAT is just one more thing I am dealing with. One year ago tomorrow, she was at his house banging away while I sat on the couch waiting for her to get home.
> 
> F'ng sucks.


Some advice. If you are strong enough (not meant to imply that you aren't strong but that the wounds might still be too raw to do this) do something with her that is so over the top wonderful that it completely eradicates anything she might have done previously. Then when you think of that day next year your memories of that day will be of what you did together. Each year that new memory will become stronger and the other memory will gradually fade. You may still trigger but try to fight through it. At least that's what worked for us.


----------



## Beowulf

DawnD said:


> I think this year is too soon for you two to reclaim any triggers and dates that will trigger you, but the good news is that I have a thought, and its actually rational. Why not look online and try doing something neither of you have ever done before. rafting, boating, something that is a little bit away from home and active so you are more focused on what you are doing than what the day is.


Great minds think alike eh Dawn?


----------



## DawnD

Beowulf said:


> Great minds think alike eh Dawn?


hahaha! This makes me not want to break all your toes Beowulf LOL:rofl:


----------



## anonymouskitty

And fools seldom differ

*ducks*


----------



## DawnD

Even with your "cat-like" reflexes anonymouskitty, I can probably still get ahold of your toes


----------



## warlock07

DawnD said:


> hahaha! This makes me not want to break all your toes Beowulf LOL:rofl:


_Hides toes_


----------



## SomedayDig

happyman64 said:


> Dig,
> 
> I was a pilot for awhile. Took a big hit on my eye sight due to Diabetes but I know that I loved to fly.
> 
> I know you said you were a commercial pilot.
> 
> Did you give up that profession before or after D-Day?
> 
> Did you do it in an effort to save your marriage?
> 
> Do you still have that passion for flying?
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> HM64



Sorry, I lost this question set in the mix.

I stopped flying last October. I stopped for one reason: To be with my family more. I looked at my flight logs last year and realized that out of a 10 year career, I had lived in a hotel for 4 years. That's 4 years total being in a hotel somewhere away from Regret and our children. THAT is when I decided I had to leave. It took me about 6 months before I pulled the trigger. In a sense, I guess you could say I did want to save my marriage ~ but I had no idea Regret was having an affair. Again, it's odd that this was a 5 year affair that began and lasted while I was flying all over. When I stopped flying, I caught her inside of 5 months.

Do I miss it? Double edged question actually. I miss the action. I miss the 20 knot crosswind landings that I could grease in. I miss the challenge of flying though weather that would make most people cry at the thought of and land my airplane with visibility of 1/2 a mile and clouds less than 200'.

But...on the first day without bringing home a paycheck...when I put my kids on the bus for the first time ever - I was successful. And no paycheck in the world could cover that debt.


----------



## badbane

SomedayDig said:


> Sorry, I lost this question set in the mix.
> 
> I stopped flying last October. I stopped for one reason: To be with my family more. I looked at my flight logs last year and realized that out of a 10 year career, I had lived in a hotel for 4 years. That's 4 years total being in a hotel somewhere away from Regret and our children. THAT is when I decided I had to leave. It took me about 6 months before I pulled the trigger. In a sense, I guess you could say I did want to save my marriage ~ but I had no idea Regret was having an affair. Again, it's odd that this was a 5 year affair that began and lasted while I was flying all over. When I stopped flying, I caught her inside of 5 months.
> 
> Do I miss it? Double edged question actually. I miss the action. I miss the 20 knot crosswind landings that I could grease in. I miss the challenge of flying though weather that would make most people cry at the thought of and land my airplane with visibility of 1/2 a mile and clouds less than 200'.
> 
> But...on the first day without bringing home a paycheck...when I put my kids on the bus for the first time ever - I was successful. And no paycheck in the world could cover that debt.


Why not find a local GA airport and instruct. I know flying those tiny planes was a hell of a lot of fun for me.


----------



## warlock07

SomedayDig said:


> LOL Dawn! That's funny stuff.
> 
> There is one other thing I'm dealing with, too. Our kids are going to my in-laws for a week on Sunday. They did the same thing last year, too. I thought it was great for Regret and I last year, because I was home for most of the week (only 1 trip at the end of the week). One year ago tonight, we went to get some tattoo work done by a friend of mine and we had a great time and had dinner and drinks afterwords. The next day. The next f'ng day, I followed her to work while she rode her motorcycle as she had just gotten her license. When she came home, she hung out for a bit, but we didn't go out to dinner because she was going to visit one of her work colleagues.
> 
> It wasn't her work colleague she went to see.
> 
> I realize that is one out of almost 40 times, but because I know the date since it was OUR f'ng week together to hang out and we were having such a "good" time together and whatnot...THAT is just one more thing I am dealing with. One year ago tomorrow, she was at his house banging away while I sat on the couch waiting for her to get home.
> 
> F'ng sucks.


That is the deal with a long term affair. You just cannot say it was bad judgement or a drunken mistake. She knew what she was doing. She woke up everyday to it. . There are a lot of memories that are tainted by her actions like the one you mentioned before.

What does she say about this incident in particular ? And this was during the last 18 months when she said she wasn't actively pursuing the OM, right? 


Someday, I don't remember if you posted this but how do you come to terms with the betrayal? How do you reason out R in your mind ? That it is a once in a life mistake ? Or that she is in a fog ? What do you think about her during this time?


----------



## SomedayDig

warlock07 said:


> What does she say about this incident in particular ? And this was during the last 18 months when she said she wasn't actively pursuing the OM, right?
> 
> *Yes, it was during the time that she wasn't actively pursuing him. Trust me, I've looked at the cell bills for the past few years and it is clear that he was the one constantly texting and initiating contact. Believe it if you want...I've seen it in black and white in front of my face. HE texted her all the time. She responded...but not every time. Again, plain to see when looking at the cell bills.
> 
> What she says about this particular time is the same: She was so self absorbed that she didn't care. Even when we were spending a week without the kids, her ego was so f'ng heavy that I wasn't enough. *
> 
> Someday, I don't remember if you poste What do you think about her during this time?d this but how do you come to terms with the betrayal? How do you reason out R in your mind ? That it is a once in a life mistake ? Or that she is in a fog ?



During the past 5 years I knew that Regret and I had communication issues. No doubt. She will tell you that I tried talking but she had shut me out and started building her wall shortly after the miscarriage 7 years ago. I honest to God had no idea it was THIS bad. I always had the finger pointed at me, though and crazy as it sounds I searched for ways to be a better man and husband. I bought books by the dozens. I wrote and explored. I tried to figure out what in the F I was doing wrong.

But it was all for naught as I wasn't the one who was broken.

I reason out reconciliation because I love her. I love Regret. That's just the way it is. I don't discount the extreme amount of pain I am in because of her.

But I love her.


----------



## sandc

SomedayDig said:


> Do I miss it? Double edged question actually. I miss the action. I miss the 20 knot crosswind landings that I could grease in. I miss the challenge of flying though weather that would make most people cry at the thought of and land my airplane with visibility of 1/2 a mile and clouds less than 200'.


As a 20 year private pilot, I wouldn't miss that a single bit.


----------



## Badblood

SomedayDig said:


> During the past 5 years I knew that Regret and I had communication issues. No doubt. She will tell you that I tried talking but she had shut me out and started building her wall shortly after the miscarriage 7 years ago. I honest to God had no idea it was THIS bad. I always had the finger pointed at me, though and crazy as it sounds I searched for ways to be a better man and husband. I bought books by the dozens. I wrote and explored. I tried to figure out what in the F I was doing wrong.
> 
> But it was all for naught as I wasn't the one who was broken.
> 
> I reason out reconciliation because I love her. I love Regret. That's just the way it is. I don't discount the extreme amount of pain I am in because of her.
> 
> But I love her.


Dig, nobody is telling you not to R, and we all believe that you love her.. We all WANT you to R, but we want it to be a genuine R based on truth, love and respect. Until Regret can come to terms with her emotional involvement with the OM, you are spinning your wheels. Because she is all over the place on her posts ( it wasn't emotional, it wasn't sexual, yet it WAS sexual, but she meant to stop, but she didn't, but she was tapering off, but she had no feelings for the Om, yet he satisfied her needs....etc, etc, etc) I think that she is still very much , in the fog, even now. I don't think it is intentionally done to hurt you or your R, I honestly think that she isn't able to face the truth about herself. I advise you STRONGLY, not to renew your vows, but to get her the help she seriously needs to put the affair, your mind movies and all of the rest of it , to rest. After the affair is dead and buried, the reasons for it are understood and dealt with , so there is no recurrance, and you both have healed, then renew your vows. You have plenty of time, and a lot going for you, so take that time, do the job right, and make your marriage what you both want it to be.


----------



## badbane

I hope I am not being pesky I just wondered if Regret has gotten closer to my question from earlier. What/when did she decide to go down this path. I mean I know that it was a long term affair. There was a point before my wife and I dated that I met a WW. 

I was 19 and stupid so I met her. I knew she was married. There was a moment that I remember very clearly where she was wrestling with her self. I could tell she wanted to take it further. I could have easily pushed for more but didn't. 
She had her hands on a door that, if she shut would have lead to anything, she started to shut it and paused. She opened the door and nothing else happened that day. The A was about to turn Pa but I started dating my wife and she made sure my married friend and I stopped talking. 
My wife knows just about everything involved in that affair. 

I know that had we met up again things would have been anything but friendly. She and I were good friends really, I'd been going through a dark time and she was the only person I had at the time. I am not proud of it by realized that I was only doing what was natural. She was taking things further. I will accept blame that I knew she was married. I really thought that we could be friends and for a lonely single guy the attention was addicting. I had lost my academic scholarship, my mother was treating me like ****, went from being an athlete to a night time walmart employee, lost and forgotten by most of my college buddies, because I worked nights didn't have any friends to hang out with at home anymore. 
I was depressed and lonely and that's when I met her online. 

As messed up as it is, I do miss the friendship we had. When I moved past this and reflected I realized then that men and women really can't be friends. I still look in on her from time to time. I don't know if her husband knows. I feel bad for him, I know that she is a serial cheater and that I am probably not special. They are still married and have a kid together (maybe).
I don't know what made me want to share this. I just remember that in that one moment. Had she shut the door my life would be much different than it is now. But she opened the door and nothing happened Physically. 

Do you remember that moment Regret that moment when you shut the door. For me that moment is etched into my brain like a painting.


----------



## SomedayDig

I appreciate everyone's comments today. I just want all to know, its just been a tough day for me. Between seeing the twatwaffle last night and then knowing what tomorrow is...I'm just hurting. Regret has been nothing but supportive. She even took the kids to the park to give me an hour alone to relax without having to deal with anything.

I will continue to post. Obviously, I'm not finished. I just wanted to explain where I was today and maybe give some insight to the tone of my postings.

Dig


----------



## Beowulf

SomedayDig said:


> I appreciate everyone's comments today. I just want all to know, its just been a tough day for me. Between seeing the twatwaffle last night and then knowing what tomorrow is...I'm just hurting. Regret has been nothing but supportive. She even took the kids to the park to give me an hour alone to relax without having to deal with anything.
> 
> I will continue to post. Obviously, I'm not finished. I just wanted to explain where I was today and maybe give some insight to the tone of my postings.
> 
> Dig


Been there brother. I understand completely.


----------



## SomedayDig

Thanks Beowulf.

I know this might be out of character, but I want people to see the real me. The real Dig. First...I am a simple guy ~ I only say that cuz Regret always laughs when I say it, but it really is how I see myself. I understand I am extremely complex, though. Yet, I keep myself grounded.

Music is one of those things in my life that has meaning. Besides reading books, I am a musician. I've played drums my entire life. I've always loved music. It moves me. Besides books I myself have actually written and published, I have written music. Lots of it. From baroque to metal to house music. I've done it all. A few days after Dday, Regret and I went to dinner. I played her a song that moved me the morning after Dday and I'd like to share it with you guys. I understand it is music that not everyone is accustomed to or a style that not a lot of people can appreciate. It is metal. Like harsh, really heavy mathematical music. Mathematical because of the intricacy and execution. Metal because...well, it's pretty f'ng heavy.

Regret got it. I hope you guys do, too. It's a song called 'Descending' by the band Lamb of God. I lived in Richmond, VA when they first came out. I used to go see them before they were popular and have always had an affinity for their music. So. Here ya go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lShv3KYV4Fs

As for my name. Well, look up the song 'Someday' by John Legend from the movie "August Rush"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpOdpFvtBs

And the song 'Dig' by Incubus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMsZ6wkZWhA


----------



## Acabado

> I always had the finger pointed at me, though and crazy as it sounds I searched for ways to be a better man and husband. I bought books by the dozens. I wrote and explored. I tried to figure out what in the F I was doing wrong


Boy, in the middle of my wife affair I knew I was in trouble (meaning the marriage was in trouble si *I had* to fix it), of course didn't know what the troubles were. But I read a couple of books, I searched online help, I sought advice from older married friends... all so unlike me. Naturaly to no avail.

What lead me to the next question to Regret. You were extremely unhappy, the marriage was unfulfilling... Did you try to improve it somehow? I mean, serious sit downs and conversation, compromises, solutions, books, counseling, both IC and MC... tons of choices aviable... Beyond complaining to Dig and sharing your frustrations with friends... did you try *something* to improve things? Did you ever think your affair itself might had a serious impact in the marriage or your own happpiness?


----------



## SomedayDig

Regret is upstairs getting ready for bed and I'm going up in about 5 minutes. Let me answer a bit from my point of view Acabado.

Regret did, in a half assed way try to have conversations about what was going on. Unfortunately, most of the time they involved what I needed to do to fix things. If only I knew then what I know now. All of those times should have been red flags and I wish to hell I could have seen them. However, I can't should on myself too much cuz it would drive me crazy.

Did she try to improve things? No. Looking back I don't see that she did. Let's see what she has to say in the morning.


----------



## Badblood

This is an outstanding question, and one that doesn't get the attention it deserves. Dr. Harley explains that because of the cheater's sin aginst the BS. She owes him just compensation, above and beyond her actions as his new and improved wife. Dig, what do YOU think would be appropriate compensation for you, and Regret, what do YOU think you should do to compensate Dig? Remember, it must be something extroardinary.


----------



## Bellavista

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *Dig:* Good morning.
> 
> *To: other posters who reconciled: were there some EXTRAS your WSs did over the years, to make you feel even?
> 
> If not even, at least as acknowledgement / payback for the pain you swallowed in order to retain the marriage?*
> 
> Curious to know.


To be honest, I can't think of any 'extra' things that my hubby did when we reconciled. He certainly apologized & showed through his behaviour that he was contrite & a different person. I also showed through my behaviour that I was not the same wife that I was prior to his affair.
There was no 'payback' that I can recall. I did not make him crawl across tacks or sleep on a bed of nails. My biggest thing when we reconciled was that I was not going to bring his affair up everytime we had a fight & make him suffer. He made himself suffer enough without me adding to it.
I honestly think that if the BS is focussed on making the WS suffer for their sins, the reconciliation will not last.


----------



## SomedayDig

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *WHAT can she do to recompense, Dig? *She obviously has a lot to compensate you for.



Anal sex. Z. Lots of anal sex.


----------



## SomedayDig

Now, for the serious answer.

Having read Harley I understand his views on just compensation, but I'm going to tell you my God's honest feeling about it.

I think it's a bunch of crap.

The only compensation I seek is my love returned to me without strings or spectre. I seek for my wife to simply love me and be my wife the way that she is supposed to be. I seek no compensation otherwise. I totally dig where Harley is coming from, but it is not my style.

My style, since I'm sure that perked curiosity, is simple. Love is not selfish. I want that. I gave love selflessly. Regret did not. I would like her to remember hearing that reading at our wedding ceremony 12 years ago.


----------



## Badblood

SomedayDig said:


> Now, for the serious answer.
> 
> Having read Harley I understand his views on just compensation, but I'm going to tell you my God's honest feeling about it.
> 
> I think it's a bunch of crap.
> 
> The only compensation I seek is my love returned to me without strings or spectre. I seek for my wife to simply love me and be my wife the way that she is supposed to be. I seek no compensation otherwise. I totally dig where Harley is coming from, but it is not my style.
> 
> My style, since I'm sure that perked curiosity, is simple. Love is not selfish. I want that. I gave love selflessly. Regret did not. I would like her to remember hearing that reading at our wedding ceremony 12 years ago.


That's a very good sentiment, Dig, Ol pardner, but it only works if both of you are playing the same game.


----------



## SomedayDig

Badblood said:


> That's a very good sentiment, Dig, Ol pardner, but it only works if both of you are playing the same game.


Exactly! Hopefully, she understands this now.


----------



## carpenoctem

SomedayDig said:


> Anal sex. Z. Lots of anal sex.


*In short, she has to love you from the heart of her bottom.*
ah.


----------



## MattMatt

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *In short, she has to love you from the heart of her bottom.*
> ah.


----------



## MAP

Regret, 

How long passed from the moment Dig confronted you about the affair until you knew you wanted to be with Dig and save your marriage? Was it minutes, hours, days, weeks? Can you tell us any more about what your thought process was at that time? 

I will try to clarify my question: You indicate that you had been blaming Dig for your negative view of the marriage. How quickly did your view of Dig and/or your marriage change after he confronted you? 

I understand that some times the change in view that a WS has of the BS can occur gradually, particularly if the BS is working to improve their weaknesses. That would not seem to to be the case for Dig. He did not seem to need to improve himself or his rank to trigger a change in your view of him. Please address if this point if you can. 

Also Badbane asked about the the moment you "shut the door" in terms of beginning the PA. He gave a good example of what he meant. I hope you can answer his questions about that moment. Here's a link to his post. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/51527-dig-regret214s-q-thread-12.html#post925922


----------



## SomedayDig

I said in another thread that I'm working today and I'll answer stuff for me a bit later. Regret is home writing in our journal today for a big reason. If I don't know absolutely everything...I walk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anonymouskitty

SomedayDig said:


> I said in another thread that I'm working today and I'll answer stuff for me a bit later. Regret is home writing in our journal today for a big reason. If I don't know absolutely everything...I walk.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


^that, You are the man


----------



## EI

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *In short, she has to love you from the heart of her bottom.*
> ah.



Okay..... ouch!


----------



## Shaggy

Regret, since I first read your story something has been bugging me but I just couldn't put my finger on it until now:

You write like a very strong person, and the actions you are now doing are those of someone who's putting a lot of real effort into Dig and hoping Dig chooses to stay. 

during the affair you where cold and bold - you made hotel plans with the OM while on a date with your husband. You talked to him on the phone in front of him. that also shows a very bold and determined woman.

So the idea that you've been trapped in the affair and couldn't escape does not fit at all with the person you are - both now and when in the affair.

If anything you sounds like a very determined, calculating person who is very good at controlling and manipulating the situation around. I imagine you do not show any emotion on your face that you haven't first planned out and deliberately let show. 

Is this how you see you?

@Dig - is that how others see her?


----------



## workindad

Shaggy, that's the same basic thought I had. I'm having difficulty processing the length of the affair, especially when it sounds like it was dull and unfulfilling. Kind of like a square peg in a round hole?? I can't seem to wrap my head around it.

Regret, no intent to attack, your thread hits close to some old wounds for me, but I never got anything remotely resembling the truth from my XW, let alone remorse. Instead, I got every reason why she was right and I'm an a$$hat. 

I wish you both well with your R.
WD


----------



## workindad

SomedayDig said:


> I said in another thread that I'm working today and I'll answer stuff for me a bit later. Regret is home writing in our journal today for a big reason. If I don't know absolutely everything...I walk.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dig, I admire your style. Recalling 5-years of bad decisions to the letter will likely be difficult even for someone committed to being forthcoming. Not trying to give her an out, just suggesting that you keep your head and be reasonable if it takes a while longer than you expect or if small details are forgotten. 


Good luck
WD


----------



## SomedayDig

Regret worked on our journal for a total of 4 hours. She basically started when we began it and wrote digital notes in the side-lines elaborating and sometimes even saying "this was a lie". I am going to read it now. Even though she didn't finish it fully (its literally like 4 months of writing between the two of us on an almost daily basis), I am happy that she worked so hard to answer things.

We might be back on later. Or we might just hang out. We'll see.

Peace.


----------



## MattMatt

SomedayDig said:


> Regret worked on our journal for a total of 4 hours. She basically started when we began it and wrote digital notes in the side-lines elaborating and sometimes even saying "this was a lie". I am going to read it now. Even though she didn't finish it fully (its literally like 4 months of writing between the two of us on an almost daily basis), I am happy that she worked so hard to answer things.
> 
> We might be back on later. Or we might just hang out. We'll see.
> 
> Peace.


Hey. It's Saturday evening! Only real losers are on the Internet on a Sat.... ah. Dang! That'd be me,then! 
:rofl:

Actually, I am banished to the computer room/study with the cat. We are being kept away from painting and decorating by my wife!


----------



## warlock07

SomedayDig said:


> I said in another thread that I'm working today and I'll answer stuff for me a bit later. Regret is home writing in our journal today for a big reason. If I don't know absolutely everything...I walk.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How big does it have to be to walk? I'm pretty sure that you will have some.

She seems to be pretty convinced about what details she should tell you about the sexual part of the affair. The minimum you can confess to in a 5 year affair. She is doing it either for your own mental peace or for her own selfish reasons. Hopefully she will come clean. Just remember, she is smarter than you think she is and maybe even more than you.

Regret, the only reason your H might leave you now is more dishonesty. The details will hurt but not as much as more lies. You are lucky to still have your family after all this.


----------



## SomedayDig

Reality.

Truth today doesn't hurt half as much as the lie told yesterday.

Regret did a LOT of work on our journal. It was mostly a lot of clarification. I had actually asked her one question a couple months ago. It was innocuous at best, but she truly feared the answer. I'm not going into details, but she told me the truth of what was said. Yes, it didn't have anything to do with the sex act itself or anything truly pertinent to the affair...it was about a comment that might have been made at some point. And I was right in my thoughts and she now understands that there is nothing that she can hide from me.

Today was quite a cleansing for her and a bit of hope for me. The true tears in her eyes for what this has done to not only me, but us, was evident. It wasn't a f'ng show. It wasn't a set-up. It was honest. And I truly believe I know everything about the affair.

But.

It doesn't make it hurt any f'ng less. Just sayin.


----------



## SomedayDig

I see what's behind her eyes. Something that none here will ever witness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

You might want to comment on AllMessedUp's and Harken Bank's thread. Looks like they could use the help.


----------



## Shaggy

SomedayDig said:


> I see what's behind her eyes. Something that none here will ever witness.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm worried that you are deceiving yourself because you want to believe her. This is the same woman who lied to you for 5 years, why do you now believe you can see the truth in her?


----------



## the guy

Digs your freaking me out.
In the later years of my wifes infidelity, my fWW were dark. This is when she was most distructive in her behavior. Her eyes really told a story, and it wasn't until she put them to word that I really saw what was going on.

I guess when you abuse some one long enough there eyes just go dark, a long with there soul. And this goes both ways with regards to both the wayward and the betrayed.


----------



## the guy

@ Shaggy, good question!

In my case you see a break down in everything in the wayward, a complete submission in what ever you have to hand out they take.

I think Lordmayham needs to post the page with the columns on it with regards to remorse to really get close to what needs to happen to see it.

Granted this is still so fresh and raw for Digs, and I to have my concerns.


----------



## Complexity

I don't think anything we say will change Dig's mind about reconciling with his wife. Nor should it, this is something he should solely decide. 

All I know is that he has a remarkable capacity to forgive, whether that's a good or bad thing, it's debatable. From an objective point of view,his reconciliation makes no sense whatsoever. His wife's betrayal is not only heartbreaking but completely terrifying. For someone to cheat for over half of their marriage and their spouse is so unsuspecting of it....it sends chills down my spine to be honest.....how can you ever trust a human being, let alone a spouse after something like that? An affair of this nature would break a normal BS.

But I guess you can't look at these things objectively. Dig's right, we don't see what he sees, we don't hear what he does. Perhaps there's this magical redeeming feature about his wife that none of us will ever comprehend.


----------



## the guy

Maybe me and digs just ain't normal! LOL

This is still raw guys, Dig will figure it out. If this is a false R...I pitty Regret.

Let me say I can comprehend on some degree, but then again, I'm the-guy with the cheating wife.

Its not a magiical redeeming feature about his wife, its a magical redeeming fiture about Digs and if Regrets screws with it she will be the one that loses.

So Regret this is it girl...last chance so don't f^ck it up. 

I hope that wasn't to disrespectful Digs????


----------



## SomedayDig

Shaggy said:


> I'm worried that you are deceiving yourself because you want to believe her. This is the same woman who lied to you for 5 years, why do you now believe you can see the truth in her?


Don't forget, I was away from home at least 75% of the time. I'm not blaming my job. I'm really not. What I am doing is telling you guys that it was easier to NOT see her lies since I was gone so much. When I would get home, its not like I would question her about where she was or what she had been doing. That made it easy on her to a degree, since she knew that I didn't suspect. Why would I? 

I promise you all, I am not having the wool pulled over my eyes. So much happened yesterday morning...stuff that is too personal that I'm not going to relate on a public forum. Stuff that WE confronted and it was literally worked on for almost *14 hours straight.* Tell me honestly the last time you heard that kind of commitment spoken of here or anywhere else.

If Regret was able to fool me or lie to me or work me over with a set-up from 4am until 6pm (I was at work 1pm-4pm while she wrote in our journal)...then she is the Devil and will probably wind up killing me in my sleep one night.

Otherwise, I would say publicly that Regret worked very hard and got to the bottom of a TON of her issues yesterday. And I am proud of her. She showed me commitment. A ton of it. So, I'm gonna hang around and take this slowly.


----------



## Badblood

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Badblood:
> could you pls give me the link to harley on this topic?
> thank you.


*carpenoctem*, just go to "Marriage Builders", and you will find all of Dr. Harley's procedures.


----------



## happyman64

Good for you and good for Regret.

Keep digging DIG!

I am sure the woman you married is buried under a ton of her lies and deceit. 

It is good to see she is trying to dig herself out to save your marriage.

Keep going Regret.Do not let your old life keep you from being the woman you want to be!


----------



## SomedayDig

Complexity said:


> I don't think anything we say will change Dig's mind about reconciling with his wife. Nor should it, this is something he should solely decide.
> 
> *No. I don't sway easily at all. I learned from an early age to be decisive. Even if, in the end, it was the wrong decision, I knew that I needed to see my decision through to the end.
> *
> 
> But I guess you can't look at these things objectively. Dig's right, we don't see what he sees, we don't hear what he does. Perhaps there's this magical redeeming feature about his wife that none of us will ever comprehend.


*Actually, yes. There is a magical redeeming feature with Regret. Unfortunately, no one here will ever see it it seems.*




the guy said:


> So Regret this is it girl...last chance so don't f^ck it up.
> 
> I hope that wasn't to disrespectful Digs????



I don't feel it was disrespectful at all. She totally understands this.


----------



## Badblood

Complexity said:


> I don't think anything we say will change Dig's mind about reconciling with his wife. Nor should it, this is something he should solely decide.
> 
> All I know is that he has a remarkable capacity to forgive, whether that's a good or bad thing, it's debatable. From an objective point of view,his reconciliation makes no sense whatsoever. His wife's betrayal is not only heartbreaking but completely terrifying. For someone to cheat for over half of their marriage and their spouse is so unsuspecting of it....it sends chills down my spine to be honest.....how can you ever trust a human being, let alone a spouse after something like that? An affair of this nature would break a normal BS.
> 
> But I guess you can't look at these things objectively. Dig's right, we don't see what he sees, we don't hear what he does. Perhaps there's this magical redeeming feature about his wife that none of us will ever comprehend.


Absolutely, Complex. Dig, the length of the affair, the amount and cold-bloodedness of the deceptions, and her continued evasions regarding her emotional connection with the OM, indicate that you need to exercise EXTREME CAUTION. She may or may not be remorseful, or she may be playing you, but one thing is sure, you need to MAKE her EARN EVERYTHING. The ease and quickness with which you are forgiving and the allowances you are giving her, simply are not justified by her actions, so far. You need to take your time, and let things play out a while. The only way she will learn to value and respect you and your marriage is to work to earn back her place in it. Don't praise her for doing things she should already have been doing.


----------



## SomedayDig

She has earned what I've given her. I have NOT forgiven Regret and she knows that I can't trust everything she says right now. She's still working on herself and no matter what anyone says, I'm not gonna abandon her in any way. Again, there's sh_t we've talked about...deep personal things that will not be talked about here and that none of you are privy to. 

If you think I've done this with "ease and quickness", then you truly have no f'ng clue as to what goes on in this house. No clue.


----------



## lisab0105

I only wish my fiance showed half as much remorse and put forth even a fraction of the effort that Regret has. 

It sounds like Dig has a firm grasp on the situation and is responding exactly the way he needs to. Not every cheater follows the same M.O and not every reconciliation can follow the same game plan. Dig as faith in Regret...as long as he has that and as long as she keeps proving why he should, they will make it through.


----------



## SomedayDig

Thank you Lisa. That means a lot.

I'm sorry, though, that you haven't gotten the same in your relationship.


----------



## In_The_Wind

As with any reconciliation their will be up and down days they both seem sincere and want this
Both parties have changed and dynamic of their marriage as changed considerably I feel as long as they both are willing to work this out then they have an honest shot at a successful R good luck yall I am praying for you guys
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cat3CatGirl

Been buried in my own doubts this week and just now getting to reading your stories. Thanks soooo much for sharing. I wish you both the best in R!!!


----------



## Badblood

SomedayDig said:


> She has earned what I've given her. I have NOT forgiven Regret and she knows that I can't trust everything she says right now. She's still working on herself and no matter what anyone says, I'm not gonna abandon her in any way. Again, there's sh_t we've talked about...deep personal things that will not be talked about here and that none of you are privy to.
> 
> If you think I've done this with "ease and quickness", then you truly have no f'ng clue as to what goes on in this house. No clue.


What we are trying to do here is give you advice from our experiences as BS's. You are right that we only know what you and Regret tell us, so we have to work with that. I have , in no way , disrespected you or Regret and have only warned you about issues that I faced myself. If you don't want my advice, say so, and I will not come on this thread again. I really don't appreciate your angry comments.


----------



## Badblood

You say that there are deep personal things you don't tell us and then berate me because I don't instinctively understand what they are? How fair is that? I'm done with this thread.


----------



## SomedayDig

Ummm...okay. That was truly NOT an angry comment. I usually use the f word a few times in a normal sentence, so maybe what you see as me berating you, I see as a normal tone of voice.

See, that's where forums can kind of get muddled. Someone can say something and it might never be taken for what it was truly meant to. Sorry if you got offended at my using the f word thing. It's just how I talk.

As for you being done with this thread...tell us, what's going on with you. It seems you stewed on this for a few minutes and then recommented. Does this trigger you somehow?


----------



## SomedayDig

Badblood said:


> What we are trying to do here is give you advice from our experiences as BS's. You are right that we only know what you and Regret tell us, so we have to work with that. I have , in no way , disrespected you or Regret and have only warned you about issues that I faced myself. If you don't want my advice, say so, and I will not come on this thread again. I really don't appreciate your angry comments.


Truly, man...I never felt disrespected, so I don't understand where you think I felt as such. I simply made a comment to your comment about me doing this with "ease and quickness". It's not easy. It's not quick. That is all I'm saying.


----------



## SomedayDig

For the continuation of this thread and for everyone reading and commenting and whatnot I'm going to say this about the "personal" stuff that Regret and I will NOT be talking about: When we speak about "personal" issues, we're not talking about the affair that Regret had. Personal issues are deep things that no one knows about except the two of us. Things from childhood that have no reason to be discussed on an open forum.

Choose to continue reading or not if you think that's going to stop you from commenting or offering advice in some way.


----------



## Badblood

You have the right to tell or not tell us anything or nothing, but if we try to help, based on what information you have already told us, then you should be a little more polite. Telling me I have" no effing clue", is insulting, and unfair. If I don't have a clue, then clue me in. Using the f-bomb may be common usage for you, but it isn't for others. I'm out of here.


----------



## SomedayDig

Your choice, man.


----------



## Zanna

I don't see how Regret is any different than any other WS who snaps back to reality when the affair is exposed.

That's why exposure works.

My H was trying to get out of his A for months before D-day but was being blackmailed by OW. He did succeed in getting out about 3 weeks prior to D-day when he realized it was time to face the music. But he also said that had the A been exposed at ANY POINT, even when it first began, it would have been done. Secrecy keeps the A going in a lot of cases. Regret is no different despite the fact that she seems to be painted as more callous and calculating than your typical WS. What WS isn't callous and calculating? Exposure shines the light on the nastiness of the whole thing. Like c0ckroaches exposed to the light. Everyone runs for cover.

Yes, it went on for far too long. I find that horrifying but if Dig can move on from that then perhaps it's because he knows more about what went on his M than we all do.

Anyway, there's a long road ahead but it seems they're both up to the challenge.

Good luck to you both.


----------



## SomedayDig

Zanna said:


> I don't see how Regret is any different than any other WS who snaps back to reality when the affair is exposed.
> 
> *She is absolutely no different.*
> 
> That's why exposure works.
> 
> *Indeed. The xOM had impersonated his wife and responded to the email I sent and it was only after my gut-feeling said send the next, that his wife found out. He lied to her and everyone else and she booted him.*
> 
> My H was trying to get out of his A for months before D-day but was being blackmailed by OW. He did succeed in getting out about 3 weeks prior to D-day when he realized it was time to face the music. But he also said that had the A been exposed at ANY POINT, even when it first began, it would have been done. Secrecy keeps the A going in a lot of cases. Regret is no different despite the fact that she seems to be painted as more callous and calculating than your typical WS. What WS isn't callous and calculating? Exposure shines the light on the nastiness of the whole thing. Like c0ckroaches exposed to the light. Everyone runs for cover.
> 
> *Regret is no more callous and calculating than any WS. If someone had a ONS 5 years ago but never told until today, isn't that still lying and deceiving for 5 years? Just being Devil's advocate, which is odd seeing as I'm the f'ng BS...*
> 
> Yes, it went on for far too long. I find that horrifying but if Dig can move on from that then perhaps it's because he knows more about what went on his M than we all do.
> 
> *Thank you. Yes, it is absolutely horrifying, but thank you for recognizing that sometimes, the story can never be fully comprehended from behind the glaring LCD screens.*
> 
> Anyway, there's a long road ahead but it seems they're both up to the challenge.
> 
> Good luck to you both.



Thanks again for the words of encouragement!


----------



## girlfromipanema

Thank you, Dig and Regret for sharing this painful, personal experience. My H also had a LTA - 5+ years. I'm 1 1/2 years out. Things are better, but there is still so much to overcome. My husband loved both OW and me. He didn't say "equally" when I asked... He said "differently". 

So much has happened since discovery - job changes, moving out of state, expected death, unexpected death, lawsuit (by OW). I'm afraid I've rugswept the past six months. Reading your experience is helping me gain courage to reopen the door and address some pain that I've been ignoring. 

So, again, thank you both and best wishes to you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

That is nice to hear and I fully appreciate not only your kind words but that somehow Regret and my story is helping you in your own struggles. I hope all goes well for you, too!


----------



## cpacan

SomedayDig said:


> Regret is no more callous and calculating than any WS. If someone had a ONS 5 years ago but never told until today, isn't that still lying and deceiving for 5 years? Just being Devil's advocate, which is odd seeing as I'm the f'ng BS...


Actually; _this exact question_ was up on my last IC. My wife had a 9 months affair, we are 15 months past DD now. On DD she also confessed a ONS 20 years ago, which _at the time_ didn't matter much compared to the her LTA.

But... my psychologist asked me what I thought about my wife hiding this for nearly 20 years, never showing any sign of guilt and never being close to confess.

It made me think deeply and made me realize that my wife indeed is not who I thought she was during all thes years, and that her latest LTA is just a continuation of being who she really is/were (I still hope she has learned something from being caught).

So I think you have a very valid point there.


----------



## SomedayDig

Thanks for the validation Cpacan. I think it's splitting hairs to think that one affair is worse than another because of length of time of the affair. It's ALL bad. 

Hell, if that's not the case, then why would people be here for EA's involving texts or emails or facebook? I mean, they didn't REALLY have an affair, right? 

(sarcasm pointed out just in case)


----------



## SomedayDig

Regret and I are alone with each other this week. Our 2 kids are with her parents about 200 miles away! We had a good talk yesterday and then went to dinner and a movie. We're really looking forward to spending this week talking, sharing and not having any kind of parenting duties.

At this time, I think it's what we need.


----------



## cpacan

SomedayDig said:


> Thanks for the validation Cpacan. I think it's splitting hairs to think that one affair is worse than another because of length of time of the affair. It's ALL bad.
> 
> Hell, if that's not the case, then why would people be here for EA's involving texts or emails or facebook? I mean, they didn't REALLY have an affair, right?
> 
> (sarcasm pointed out just in case)


I didn't understand that my self once. Thought that infidelity had to include sex, but I have learned otherwise. It's the betrayal and all the lies that is the worst to cope with. You won't ever know the full extend of what goes on in the mind of a previous cheater.

Because trust has been violated. You want to trust, you need to trust, but you really can't be certain, can you?

well I guess that was enough encouragement for one day, but I truly wish you and regret the best and enjoy following your thread


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Regret and I are alone with each other this week. Our 2 kids are with her parents about 200 miles away! We had a good talk yesterday and then went to dinner and a movie. We're really looking forward to spending this week talking, sharing and not having any kind of parenting duties.
> 
> At this time, I think it's what we need.



I hope that the two of you have a great week! H has taken two weeks of his annual vacation time in the last 8 weeks (two different weeks) and it helped us immensely. We spent a great deal of time discussing my A, but we, also, spent some time just enjoying ourselves. Every once in a while, I ask for a little down time, just a few hours or an evening where we don't have to discuss it and he has been amazing about giving me that time when I need it. Now, if in the middle that time, something triggers him and I can tell that he really needs to talk to me about it, then that is exactly what we do. It's all about compromise, empathy, kindness and consideration. All of those qualities that make a marriage or any relationship grow. I think that you have already demonstrated that you are quite capable of all of that. Have a great week and don't spend too much time, here, on TAM. Sometimes, I read through the threads but I don't log on.... that way I get my fix without feeling the need to respond to new posts right away!


----------



## SomedayDig

Agreed. The trust is what is lost most, never mind that she was having sex (which f'ng kills the spirit out of me at times). But knowing that she lied to me is difficult.

And yeah...no more encouragement for me today. I don't want my head swelling up especially when I have to go to the gym now. LOL


----------



## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> I hope that the two of you have a great week! H has taken two weeks of his annual vacation time in the last 8 weeks (two different weeks) and it helped us immensely. We spent a great deal of time discussing my A, but we, also, spent some time just enjoying ourselves. Every once in a while, I ask for a little down time, just a few hours or an evening where we don't have to discuss it and he has been amazing about giving me that time when I need it. Now, if in the middle that time, something triggers him and I can tell that he really needs to talk to me about it, then that is exactly what we do. It's all about compromise, empathy, kindness and consideration. All of those qualities that make a marriage or any relationship grow. I think that you have already demonstrated that you are quite capable of all of that. Have a great week and don't spend too much time, here, on TAM. Sometimes, I read through the threads but I don't log on.... that way I get my fix without feeling the need to respond to new posts right away!


We both know that we can't discuss this 24/7 and I think it would be unhealthy. Regret was pretty tired after her marathon of writing and reflection she did on Saturday and I certainly need down time myself. Our plan, for the most part, is to not have plans. We are going to spend the night in a hotel about 5 miles away just to do it. Go out to dinner. Walk around a bit. Just kind of be together and have down time that way. Hopefully, that isn't seen as rug sweeping, but simply a time to reconnect and recharge. We have been working an awful lot on this stuff over the past few months.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> We both know that we can't discuss this 24/7 and I think it would be unhealthy. Regret was pretty tired after her marathon of writing and reflection she did on Saturday and I certainly need down time myself. Our plan, for the most part, is to not have plans. We are going to spend the night in a hotel about 5 miles away just to do it. Go out to dinner. Walk around a bit. Just kind of be together and have down time that way. Hopefully, that isn't seen as rug sweeping, but simply a time to reconnect and recharge. We have been working an awful lot on this stuff over the past few months.


That is exactly what H & I did two weekends ago.... We spent an entire weekend, blissfully, tucked away in a hotel downtown. We only emerged from our room to eat, drink and be merry..... well, not really, most of the merry making occurred in our hotel room. We did go to the hot tub once, but mostly we just laid in bed for two whole days. It was pure bliss! There was a convention for deaf people downtown that weekend (seriously) so the hotel was totally quiet except for us, we were very loud (LOL) but no one could hear us!!!


----------



## In_The_Wind

Dig that is awesome I think yall should also develop a plan for when you do have the kids in developing quality time the general rule is 10 hours a week no phones no tv etc.


----------



## lovelygirl

Badblood said:


> BTW, even though I respect both you and Regret and the work you are doing,* I DO NOT hope you can reconcile. What I DO hope is that BOTH of you can learn to live happy*, guilt-free, loving lives, whether it is together or separate. I feel that in many (even most) cases, R is not going to ever be complete, even with all of the goodwill in the world. Real life isn't like Disney, some bad things happen and can never be recovered from. I think that most posters truly want to hear stories with happy endings, BS'S and WS's and OP's included, but seldom does it ever happen.


Usually I don't believe in R stories but between _not believing _and *hoping for no-reconciliation* there's a difference.
You wish they live happy but what if R is the only way to happiness for this couple? 
Your post sounds contradictory. You hope for separation then you hope for happiness whether separated or not. 

I understand your point, yet I can't see how you can hope for a couple not to reconcile.


----------



## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> That is exactly what H & I did two weekends ago.... We spent an entire weekend, blissfully, tucked away in a hotel downtown. We only emerged from our room to eat, drink and be merry..... well, not really, most of the merry making occurred in our hotel room. We did go to the hot tub once, but mostly we just laid in bed for two whole days. It was pure bliss! There was a convention for deaf people downtown that weekend (seriously) so the hotel was totally quiet except for us, we were very loud (LOL) but no one could hear us!!!



Regret and I just laughed so hard at this, I swear I had tears in my eyes from it!! OMG!!! Deaf convention and hotel merriment. Can it get any better!?!!!


----------



## Badblood

lovelygirl said:


> Usually I don't believe in R stories but between _not believing _and *hoping for no-reconciliation* there's a difference.
> You wish they live happy but what if R is the only way to happiness for this couple?
> Your post sounds contradictory. You hope for separation then you hope for happiness whether separated or not.
> 
> I understand your point, yet I can't see how you can hope for a couple not to reconcile.


My main concern is for Dig and Regret, individually. To R just for the sake of being married is as wrong as cheating. I want BOTH of them to enter into R from the perspective of honest, well-adjusted individuals, and that takes introspection and possibly counseling. TAM is a pro-marriage site, yes, but to advocate R just because of that, is short-sighted. You know, if we as persons, put as much work into reparing our bad marriages, as we do in R, none of us would even be here, in the first place. Hindsight sucks!!


----------



## Almostrecovered

did somebody ask for Captain Hindsight?


----------



## Badblood

No ****!


----------



## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> That is exactly what H & I did two weekends ago.... We spent an entire weekend, blissfully, tucked away in a hotel downtown. We only emerged from our room to eat, drink and be merry..... well, not really, most of the merry making occurred in our hotel room. We did go to the hot tub once, but mostly we just laid in bed for two whole days. It was pure bliss! There was a convention for deaf people downtown that weekend (seriously) so the hotel was totally quiet except for us, we were very loud (LOL) but no one could hear us!!!


Except for the staff :rofl:


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> Except for the staff :rofl:



Ooooooh, Uh-Oh!!! :rofl:


----------



## Regret214

I'm back.....

I had to take a few days away from TAM to gather the pieces of myself that have unraveled. 

Dig has let you all know that I have spent a considerable amount of time assessing my A and providing him with additional details and clarification. It has been an exhaustive time emotionally for both of us. It has also provided me with an opportunity to examine myself, my motives, and my hopes. For now I will share that IC will be important to truly get to the bottom of my choices and behaviors. This is something that I need to pursue, not only for myself, but for the sake of my M. 

If R is going to work, I need to know myself and Dig needs to know me. I do see more now, thanks in part to TAM, but there are some very dark places that I have yet to explore (unrelated to my A). Dig and I both realize that there will be continued ups and down...for years to come...but we will take each day as it comes. What ever the end result of R, at least we know we tried and we are both better people because of it.

Jason Mraz has a song out right now, "I Won't Give Up".... I heard this song for the first time within a week of D-day. I pulled the car over and just sobbed. I hear it daily now, turn the volume up and sing loudly (with the windows up!!!!). The following is part of that song and speaks volumes to me about this process of R.
__________________________________________
I don't wanna be someone who walks away so easily
I'm here to stay and make the difference that I can make
Our differences they do a lot to teach us how to use
The tools and gifts we got yeah, we got a lot at stake
And in the end, you're still my friend at least we did intend
For us to work we didn't break, we didn't burn
We had to learn how to bend without the world caving in
I had to learn what I've got, and what I'm not
And who I am
________________________________________

I am in this for the long haul....The ups, the downs, the good, and the bad.


----------



## strugglinghusband

Yes that song is amazing.

Believe in yourselves & believe in one another.


----------



## SomedayDig

It is a good song.

However, and somewhat unfortunately, one of my favorites is Lamb of God's "Descending"

This God that I worship...
This Demon I blame...
Conspire as one
Exactly the same
It's exactly the same.
Descending.
To never recover the pieces to all that we lost.


----------



## Badblood

Regret214 said:


> I'm back.....
> 
> I had to take a few days away from TAM to gather the pieces of myself that have unraveled.
> 
> Dig has let you all know that I have spent a considerable amount of time assessing my A and providing him with additional details and clarification. It has been an exhaustive time emotionally for both of us. It has also provided me with an opportunity to examine myself, my motives, and my hopes. For now I will share that IC will be important to truly get to the bottom of my choices and behaviors. This is something that I need to pursue, not only for myself, but for the sake of my M.
> 
> If R is going to work, I need to know myself and Dig needs to know me. I do see more now, thanks in part to TAM, but there are some very dark places that I have yet to explore (unrelated to my A). Dig and I both realize that there will be continued ups and down...for years to come...but we will take each day as it comes. What ever the end result of R, at least we know we tried and we are both better people because of it.
> 
> Jason Mraz has a song out right now, "I Won't Give Up".... I heard this song for the first time within a week of D-day. I pulled the car over and just sobbed. I hear it daily now, turn the volume up and sing loudly (with the windows up!!!!). The following is part of that song and speaks volumes to me about this process of R.
> __________________________________________
> I don't wanna be someone who walks away so easily
> I'm here to stay and make the difference that I can make
> Our differences they do a lot to teach us how to use
> The tools and gifts we got yeah, we got a lot at stake
> And in the end, you're still my friend at least we did intend
> For us to work we didn't break, we didn't burn
> We had to learn how to bend without the world caving in
> I had to learn what I've got, and what I'm not
> And who I am
> ________________________________________
> 
> I am in this for the long haul....The ups, the downs, the good, and the bad.


I'm glad to hear that you are doing some serious IC, and feel that it will help with your remaining issues. Your writing down your observations is also a good idea. I would advise you to examine closely your emotional connection with the OM. I don't know you, Regret, but I do know that you are , either intentionally or unintentionally minimizing this MAJOR issue, and by so doing, deceiving DIG and even yourself. The length of the affair, the fact that you stopped and then resumed it, and the amount and character of your deceptions and disrespect to Dig, show this quite clearly. Without SOME kind of STRONG EMOTIONAL BOND, most of this would likely not have happened. I don't believe that you are deliberately obstructing the R, but it amounts to the same thing. Remember that R is a process by which ALL and I mean ALL issues must be addressed for it to be a true and complete R. I feel that a patient and thorough approach to reconciliation is best.


----------



## carpenoctem

Empty Inside said:


> That is exactly what H & I did two weekends ago.... We spent an entire weekend, blissfully, tucked away in a hotel downtown. We only emerged from our room to eat, drink and be merry..... well, not really, most of the merry making occurred in our hotel room. We did go to the hot tub once, but mostly we just laid in bed for two whole days. It was pure bliss! *There was a convention for deaf people downtown that weekend (seriously) so the hotel was totally quiet except for us, we were very loud (LOL) but no one could hear us!!! *



I shudder to think:

If it was a convention of the *visually *challenged... ...
you would have gone down and lit up the convention hall perhaps.

Ah. I miss all the good things in life.


----------



## badbane

Dig regret this question is for both of you. Where is your head now? by that I mean aside from the obvious elephant in the room. How are things progressing. Are you going out, having fun again, doing the things that you did when things were good. Maybe try to do thing you did when you dated with each other. Take yourselves back to a place in your relationship where you were closest. Like the place you went on your first date. I know this is all fresh and painful. I think for your sakes that you should try and rewind. I think that you should start over. Relearn each other. You now have that priceless thing called hindsight now. I am not saying put this behind you as that is both impossible and inappropriate. I think that it is time to start having fun again. This is only advice and only you can decide when you are ready. I think that you both want the same thing and you are facing the problem. My only worry is that while facing the problem you forget to work on being happy around each other again. 
This won't solve any problems it will give you an momentary reprieve from the issues at hand. We all need a break. I think you both have earned one.


----------



## SomedayDig

I'm busy doing things right now, but thank you both for the recent comments. They are very good and badbane, I will definitely answer your question later on and ask Regret to do that same.

The last 2 comments here arrived in perfect timing.


----------



## Badblood

badbane said:


> Dig regret this question is for both of you. Where is your head now? by that I mean aside from the obvious elephant in the room. How are things progressing. Are you going out, having fun again, doing the things that you did when things were good. Maybe try to do thing you did when you dated with each other. Take yourselves back to a place in your relationship where you were closest. Like the place you went on your first date. I know this is all fresh and painful. I think for your sakes that you should try and rewind. I think that you should start over. Relearn each other. You now have that priceless thing called hindsight now. I am not saying put this behind you as that is both impossible and inappropriate. I think that it is time to start having fun again. This is only advice and only you can decide when you are ready. I think that you both want the same thing and you are facing the problem. My only worry is that while facing the problem you forget to work on being happy around each other again.
> This won't solve any problems it will give you an momentary reprieve from the issues at hand. We all need a break. I think you both have earned one.


I disagree. Problems defered are problems unsolved. Taking fun breaks are OK, but you must do the hard work now, to reap the benefits later. To turn a failed R or false R into a genuine R, complete honesty and self-examination are crucial, and the best time to do it is now , while it is fresh in your minds.


----------



## badbane

Badblood said:


> I disagree. Problems defered are problems unsolved. Taking fun breaks are OK, but you must do the hard work now, to reap the benefits later. To turn a failed R or false R into a genuine R, complete honesty and self-examination are crucial, and the best time to do it is now , while it is fresh in your minds.


They have been for days/weeks. Also this is a lifetime thing so if the only thing they are doing is constantly beating a dead horse nothing new comes up. Taking a step away and catching their breath as a couple could help them put to rest some issues and move on to new ones. It all comes back to running in circles if you find yourself doing that. Take a break clear your head and then come back later. I am not saying rug sweep. R takes a long time. If they can't find any time to be happy, t will just make this time more difficult, go on a date and for that one night call a truce. 
Then then next day reflect on your issues. You may find that the issues you were beating to death out of frustration were just that frustration. You can see beyond the hurt to explore deeper without seeing red and just tumbling back into frustrated circles of conversation.


----------



## SomedayDig

a v2...your post first:

I thought it was a well thought out commentary/post and I agree with a lot of things that you stated. First, I truly understand that my anger toward Regret has been under-stated in my posts. If you knew that there have been many a night, last night included, where I was so angry at her that I didn't even say "I love you" or "Goodnight", you might understand that my anger really isn't simply misdirected. Second, yes...the xOM IS a bogeyman to me. I see him in my basement whenever I go down to empty the litter box or the dehumidifier. I see him in my kitchen, where she would often get him a beer. I see him at my kitchen table, where they would talk before going to the basement for a bang session (that's putting it nicely for the web...the way I say it to Regret is far worse and I'm sure any adult here knows the words I use).

Blindly in love? Maybe. In love? Definitely. The difference between the two for me, however, is that I am cognizant that I love her. I love her for who I met. I love her for who she is right now, today. I don't love her for the horror that she is putting me and us through, though. So, I would say that I am not completely blind. Yet, I do love Regret.


----------



## SomedayDig

Badbane...we have been going over things for months on a daily basis and extremely intensively. It truly has been exhausting. Where I am now is at a state of query. I still have questions. Regret answers them. Sometimes, she may not answer them perfectly and I get upset when the TRUE answer comes out a day or so later, but you know what? I get it. She's scared. I'm not excusing it in the tiniest f'ng bit. But...I get it. 

This week, while the kids are away, we have taken the time to reflect without fear of interruption. It's been both good and bad. Good in that we can talk for however long we need. Bad because a few of the things we have spoken about hurt tremendously.

That said, we have bonded the past few days. I see Regret. I see her. I've always been empathetic to a f'ng fault. But I'll ask ~ is that so bad? Is it so bad to be able to see the scared child underneath? I don't think so. I don't excuse it. I simply understand.

The break we need and have used, is a break from posting. To be honest, this place has really helped our deck talks. But the detriment is that we both have sometimes looked at answering posters without answering each other. That is why the past 2 days we have been a little scarce. And that...is okay with us.


----------



## warlock07

Dig, most of your posts are very clear on where you stand and what you want but there is one argument that I am totally not convinced about (however I need not be )




> Blindly in love? Maybe. In love? Definitely. The difference between the two for me, however, is that I am cognizant that I love her. I love her for who I met. I love her for who she is right now, today. I don't love her for the horror that she is putting me and us through, though. So, I would say that I am not completely blind. Yet, I do love Regret.


You made a similar post(that you love her) when I asked previously. I did not comment further on that out of respect for your R

But what is love ? (can't get that stupid song out of my head). Can you describe what you have for her as love ? Is love a reason enough?


----------



## SomedayDig

Great. Now you got me thinking that damn song, too!! LOL

I think you'd have to know me to really know what love means to me. I know that sounds rather cryptic, but it's all I've got for internetland. 

My love for Regret comes from seeing her with our children. My love for Regret comes from seeing her tears flow...knowing how much she has hurt me and us. My love for Regret comes from the first time I took her to dinner in 1999 at Applebee's and when I tried to brush snow off her car and she retaliated by brushing snow off my car. My love for Regret comes in her sitting beside me as I cry about my pain and reaching out a hand to touch my shoulder or my knee. My love for Regret comes in seeing her almost die in front of my eyes giving birth to our daughter and being rushed out as they saved her...not knowing if I would ever see her eyes again. My love for Regret comes in her knowing when I need space and not to force the issue of our reconciliation. My love for Regret comes in the fond remembrance of singing "To Make You Feel My Love" at our wedding to her.

Is love a reason enough? I don't know.


----------



## warlock07

Notice something in your post?


----------



## SomedayDig

That it centers around me loving her? Yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

You love her for the role she played in your life. Not necessarily the person she is.(except for the part where she is trying very hard for R )

Hope you don't see this as an attack.


----------



## SomedayDig

Nope, I don't see it as an attack. That Regret plays the single most important role in my life (with my kids), I don't deny. That said, it's not at all like the Jerry Mc Guire "you complete me"stuff. It really isn't. But I see the gist of your point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

What I get from this love of you for Regret is the same I feel for my wife. You love her because you can't help yourself. That's all.


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## SomedayDig

Acabado...yup.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

badbane said:


> They have been for days/weeks. Also this is a lifetime thing so if the only thing they are doing is constantly beating a dead horse nothing new comes up. Taking a step away and catching their breath as a couple could help them put to rest some issues and move on to new ones. It all comes back to running in circles if you find yourself doing that. Take a break clear your head and then come back later. I am not saying rug sweep. R takes a long time. If they can't find any time to be happy, t will just make this time more difficult, go on a date and for that one night call a truce.
> Then then next day reflect on your issues. You may find that the issues you were beating to death out of frustration were just that frustration. You can see beyond the hurt to explore deeper without seeing red and just tumbling back into frustrated circles of conversation.



You hit the nail on the head. Well said!


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> You hit the nail on the head. Well said!


I don't agree. If a R is "going in circles", then it's a failing R. As I said on another thread, anything created by man , can be understood and solved by man. I told you , Badbane, that breaks are OK, but not if they impede the process of R . Hysterical bonding and other fun activities may give the BS and WS a temporary lift, but their issues remain, and the longer it takes to solve them, the less permanent the R.


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> I don't agree. If a R is "going in circles", then it's a failing R. As I said on another thread, anything created by man , can be understood and solved by man. I told you , Badbane, that breaks are OK, but not if they impede the process of R . Hysterical bonding and other fun activities may give the BS and WS a temporary lift, but their issues remain, and the longer it takes to solve them, the less permanent the R.



It might not be that the R is "going" in circles, but sometimes the process can go in circles. If you don't agree to step away from it for a few hours or for an evening to just enjoy yourselves, together, occasionally, then you might forget why you ever wanted to R in the first place. Badbane simply suggested calling a temporary truce. H and I do it all of the time. We are both allowed to call "time outs." We listen to the advice we get here on TAM and to the advice of our marriage counselor. Sometimes, that advice is conflicting. So, we take what works for us and we leave behind what doesn't. We make our rules as we go, both of us, together, because we are married, and we love each other, and we communicate our needs to one another, now. We work through the tough stuff every single day, but we take time to remind ourselves why we are worth it to each other every single day, as well. BTW, "hysterical bonding," or really [email protected]% good sex isn't just a temporary lift, it's a normal part of a healthy relationship and in order to have a healthy relationship you need to do normal healthy things. Of course, this is just my opinion, but it seems to be working for us.


----------



## Badblood

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *Dig:*
> 
> I know that by now, the most irritating part of this thread for you is a mention of the chronology (the 5-year, LTA part).
> Please bear with me.
> 
> Many of us had/have translated that (the long duration – half your marriage tenure) as extreme emotional cruelty, absence of empathy, egregious disrespect, etc.
> 
> But perhaps a more accurate translation would be: *She (Regret) KNEW.
> 
> She KNEW you’d not leave her. She KNEW you loved her far too much to not forgive. She KNEW she could ride this one out. She KNEW you inside out. She KNEW the right tools for emotional crisis management with you.*
> 
> Right now, it doesn't strike me as a case of dopamine-driven prolongation of an affair. Perhaps in the initial stages of the affair, the sexual high and dopamine flow might have been factors. But as it wore out, perhaps it really degenerated into just a convenient sexual tryst mechanism, without much emotional content (just as Regret says, much to the disbelief of many posters).
> 
> Maybe she was really not emotionally invested after the initial stages – say after a year or two, *but the affair continued because she KNEW (that you could be ‘managed’).
> 
> You might feel as though YOU are making all the concessions. But perhaps she KNEW you would make those concessions, and HOW to make you do that.
> 
> She took your love THAT MUCH for granted. That is what it seems to me like now.
> 
> You are paying a VERY BIG price for your love, brother.
> 
> Strength.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, you are an exceptional sample of maleness. You deserve much more than this.
> 
> 
> *We all have but one life. And probably, there is no such thing as Fate.*


*carpenoctem*, while a lot of this post is spot on, your basic premiss isn't. Regret isn't a nymphomaniac or sex addict. She doesn't fit the profile. Regret entered into a COMMITTED 5 YEAR RELATIONSHIP with the OM, and I have NEVER heard of anybody doing such a thing, STRICTLY for sex. If all she wanted was sex, she would much more likely have had a series of ONS'S or multiple encounters with multiple partners, like sex addicts do. At the height of her affair, she was as committed to the OM or even more so, than she was to DIG. This is proven by her having contact with the OM WHILE she was with Dig or her kids, by her having sex in the family home, and by her re-entering into the affair relationship after quitting during the family crisis.This is maybe the biggest single issue that they face. Regret is unwilling or unable to face the true nature of her relationship with the OM.


----------



## Badblood

BTW, I agree with you that she is NOT as confused or bewildered as she seems. After all, she had zero confusion DURING the affair , didn't she? She knew, and knows exactly what she is doing. I am so sorry for you, Dig.


----------



## Badblood

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *Badblood: Hello.*
> 
> This was my impression too. *Still is, off and on.*
> 
> But now I am wondering whether she did all those (texting the OM about hotel reservation while she and Dig were on a date night out, skipping very special moments in their life for sexual trysts with OM, etc.,) *NOT because she cared so much about the OM (as to justify sabotaging her marriage), but basically because she just DID NOT care about the aftermath. *Because she KNEW if caught, she could ‘manage’ his response. She KNEW what would work with him. (and she was right -- IT IS WORKING RIGHT NOW).
> 
> *Usually, such carefree cheating would indicate an exit affair of sorts (but Regret’s definitely was not that) or a major sex-addiction (Regret’s case was not that either).*
> 
> As you say, if it was all sex (and not much emotion), she would more likely have moved on to other ONS-type trysts. *Why she did not, and whether she did not, is moot.*
> 
> Apologies, Dig, for mentioning that. *But I am sure you might have wondered too, or investigated that to your satisfaction.
> 
> I am thinking that eventually (after the initial taboo sex-thrill part of it), even the sex was not a significant lure for her (perhaps that was why he was always the initiator of trysts). It must have been just an extra moment amidst day to day living – like a high-calorie pastry that even a dieter grabs on impulse now and then.*
> 
> And one critical issue -- *its eventual impact on Dig, was overlooked / understated in her mind for two reasons – one, she did not think it would be discovered (the usual ostrich syndrome of WSs), and two, if discovered, she believed she could ‘manage’ Dig’s reaction to it.* And she IS.
> 
> *In that sense, this case strikes me as worse than many other cases of infidelity on this forum, which seem far more sinister in the face of it.
> 
> 
> As far as Dig knows, he is leading the reconciliation effort.
> But perhaps she knows she is subliminally directing it.*
> Maybe that is a callous / cynical view. But that is what my gut is telling me.
> 
> 
> 
> Dig: my man. *So much love, so under-rewarded. *I feel so bad.
> 
> Didn’t mean to disrespect / discourage your efforts whatsoever, Sir. I just feel bad about it.
> 
> 
> 
> *Badblood: *I went through your thread some time ago.
> You have been through this hell too, *and have shone through. *I am proud to know you.


I agree with you , *carpenoctem*, that she seems to know how and when to push Dig's buttons, and is directing the R. What makes me feel bad, is how much Dig obviously loves his wife , even after all of this deceit and playing. I have a lot of respect for Dig's sincerity and inherent honesty. BTW, thanks, but I did nothing more (or less) than keep my word. I was clear to my ex, as to what I expected from her, and was unwavering in my support for her. Sometimes it just isn't enough.


----------



## Badblood

Ever since my D , I have a lot of hope. My new Gf is awesome. Beauty and Brains in the same package.


----------



## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> ...but sometimes the process can go in circles.
> 
> *I agree with this. Often times, I KNOW I'm talking in circles...asking the same questions over and over. I feel, though, that it's just the way I need to process it all. Hearing it again and again. Doesn't mean its the right way, but it's my way.*
> 
> BTW, "hysterical bonding," or really [email protected]% good sex isn't just a temporary lift, it's a normal part of a healthy relationship and in order to have a healthy relationship you need to do normal healthy things. Of course, this is just my opinion, but it seems to be working for us.


Ummmm...if "hysterical bonding" means having sex more now than we have in the past decade and if that somehow is wrong...well, I don't wanna be right!! 

On the serious side of that issue, I think there's a difference when in the beginning I can see where I needed to, in my words, feel like I was banging it out. I'm past that now and I'm at the point of just enjoying making love to my wife.

A LOT!


----------



## SomedayDig

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *Dig:*
> 
> I know that by now, the most irritating part of this thread for you is a mention of the chronology (the 5-year, LTA part).
> Please bear with me.
> 
> Many of us had/have translated that (the long duration – half your marriage tenure) as extreme emotional cruelty, absence of empathy, egregious disrespect, etc.
> 
> But perhaps a more accurate translation would be: *She (Regret) KNEW.
> 
> She KNEW you’d not leave her. She KNEW you loved her far too much to not forgive. She KNEW she could ride this one out. She KNEW you inside out. She KNEW the right tools for emotional crisis management with you.*
> 
> Right now, it doesn't strike me as a case of dopamine-driven prolongation of an affair. Perhaps in the initial stages of the affair, the sexual high and dopamine flow might have been factors. But as it wore out, perhaps it really degenerated into just a convenient sexual tryst mechanism, without much emotional content (just as Regret says, much to the disbelief of many posters).
> 
> Maybe she was really not emotionally invested after the initial stages – say after a year or two, *but the affair continued because she KNEW (that you could be ‘managed’).
> 
> You might feel as though YOU are making all the concessions. But perhaps she KNEW you would make those concessions, and HOW to make you do that.
> 
> She took your love THAT MUCH for granted. That is what it seems to me like now.
> 
> You are paying a VERY BIG price for your love, brother.
> 
> Strength.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, you are an exceptional sample of maleness. You deserve much more than this.
> 
> 
> *We all have but one life. And probably, there is no such thing as Fate.*


I can see what you're saying about being managed. I also see another phrase in there that isn't talked about enough. That phrase is *TAKEN FOR GRANTED*.

See, I think in the end, that is the true issue. It's not that she managed me at all. She knew I was going to be flying. I would literally be thousands of miles away. Yes, she knew how much I loved her...how much I missed her.

And she took THAT for granted.

She managed her affair. She managed herself. She managed herself to a point where she lied. To _herself_. Yes, she lied to me, but worse - her self. 

Regret managed to go back to childhood abuse issues (yes, I said I wasn't going to bring it up and don't expect to ever hear it again), and follow that cycle of abuse that many of us (yep...me too) have endured.

Wanna know the deepness? There. Now, you know. It doesn't excuse it one f'ng bit, though. Regret is an adult and SHE allowed her SELF to make her decisions.

She managed herSELF.

She took me for granted.


----------



## SomedayDig

Badblood said:


> Regret entered into a COMMITTED 5 YEAR RELATIONSHIP with the OM, and I have NEVER heard of anybody doing such a thing, STRICTLY for sex.
> 
> *Now, if you read my above post, it might make a little more sense. I've just really learned this stuff, but it at least has gotten me to believe her lack of emotion for him.*
> 
> At the height of her affair, she was as committed to the OM or even more so, than she was to DIG.
> 
> *Very difficult to accept this. However, we actually spoke about this very issue last night. Absolutely true and painful.*
> 
> This is proven by her having contact with the OM WHILE she was with Dig or her kids, by her having sex in the family home, and by her re-entering into the affair relationship after quitting during the family crisis.This is maybe the biggest single issue that they face. *Regret is unwilling or unable to face the true nature of her relationship with the OM.*


I bolded the end statement, because this is where Regret is with her own search. She is getting ready, right now, for her IC appointment. I know it is going to be an extremely difficult one as we have BOTH learned a lot about her these past 10 days alone. Due to summer and wanting to do family things, it has been about 6 weeks since seeing the IC. It's okay in my book, as we had been going there since March when this began. Both of us needed a break from counseling.

BUT...with what we have talked about and uncovered for her, this is going to be a difficult but insightful day.


----------



## SomedayDig

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Apologies, Dig, for mentioning that. *But I am sure you might have wondered too, or investigated that to your satisfaction.
> 
> 
> I have definitely investigated and proven to my satisfaction what Regret did and did not do.*
> 
> Dig: my man. *So much love, so under-rewarded. *I feel so bad.
> 
> Didn’t mean to disrespect / discourage your efforts whatsoever, Sir. I just feel bad about it.


One thing I have learned is that I am in control of me. While it might seem somewhat disrespectful to some and discouraging to others...I'll take it as it comes and do my best to not take offense ~ unless it is a blatant comment as such.

Expressing empathy for my situation is fine. But even in my darkest times...I am okay. I accept what has happened with Regret. For *5* years she took everything that was given to her from me for granted.

She. Must live with that guilt. I have done a difficult thing here by working on reconciliation. It isn't for the feint at heart. Then again, in my professional career I was always described by my subordinates as "a captain with high integrity, character and judgement".

I actually DO carry those professional traits over to my personal life.


----------



## badbane

Hey have a question where is regret haven't seen her replying a lot lately?


----------



## SomedayDig

badbane said:


> Hey have a question where is regret haven't seen her replying a lot lately?


To put it simply, she's on her journey.

I think a few days ago when things really hit her and she realized how deep the rabbit hole goes, she made a decision to focus her attention inward. I support that wholeheartedly. It's what she needs to do. It's what I need her to do.

Trust me. She'll be back. But this is her vision quest stuff that she's needed to deal with for decades. She needs to fix herself.


----------



## badbane

SomedayDig said:


> To put it simply, she's on her journey.
> 
> I think a few days ago when things really hit her and she realized how deep the rabbit hole goes, she made a decision to focus her attention inward. I support that wholeheartedly. It's what she needs to do. It's what I need her to do.
> 
> Trust me. She'll be back. But this is her vision quest stuff that she's needed to deal with for decades. She needs to fix herself.


Just be sure that she isn't distancing herself from you. God only knows the hellstorm you guys are facing. I can't imagine what is going through your head. I can't imagine what is going through her head. Facing this, to me would be impossible, kudos to you for trying. I am glad you found a place to vent TAM helped me out that's why I am here trying to help anyone else out I can. Brother we wish you the best.


----------



## SomedayDig

It definitely ain't easy, but we communicate eons more than we ever have, so she certainly isn't distant. I bet she wishes she were at times!!! LOL

Thanks for the well wishes.


----------



## In_The_Wind

Yes and keep that heavy bag around my man, small steps lead to leaps


----------



## SomedayDig

Heavy bag is awesome.

Speaking of which...be right back!!!


----------



## Acabado

> if it was all sex (and not much emotion), she would more likely have moved on to other ONS-type trysts. *Why she did not, and whether she did not, is moot*.


I don't want to put thoughts on anyone else head but we sometimes overthink. OM was *convenient*, he was known, the arrangment was convenient, he mostly persued, she didn't have to seek. End off. The quoted line of thinking is not true. I have no doubt there are plenty of LTAs outere "just for sex" (I'm sure there are always more "needs" met, but I disagree those needs are necessarily emotional atachments, WW will find out them by continued self examination. The driven forces are not needfully evident even for her). There same way house was convenient until it wasn't convenient anymore. For Dig obviously It comes across as awfull, callous, evil. I don't agree with it.


----------



## EI

“I suppose that since most of our hurts come through relationships so will our healing, and I know that grace rarely makes sense for those looking in from the outside.”
― W. Paul Young, The Shack 

This quote made me think of the two of you.


----------



## Badblood

Acabado said:


> I don't want to put thoughts on anyone else head but we sometimes overthink. OM was *convenient*, he was known, the arrangment was convenient, he mostly persued, she didn't have to seek. End off. The quoted line of thinking is not true. I have no doubt there are plenty of LTAs outere "just for sex" (I'm sure there are always more "needs" met, but I disagree those needs are necessarily emotional atachments, WW will find out them by continued self examination. The driven forces are not needfully evident even for her). There same way house was convenient until it wasn't convenient anymore. For Dig obviously It comes across as awfull, callous, evil. I don't agree with it.


Sorry, but I disagree with this line of reasoning, most strongly. It is dangerous to R and completely false. Acabado, you are way off base here. After D-day I searched many, many infidelity websites, talked to several MC's , IC's and psychologists (both pro-marriage and not) and ( including the Harleys) the vast majority stated that the longer the affair, the greater the emotional component. I did my homework. Persons seeking sexual gratification only or primarily, almost never restrict themselves to one other partner. To state that Regret did not feel something for the Om, is based solely on Dig's (and most BS's) natural desire to minimize and excuse the WS'S involvement, and Regret's (and most WS'S ) natural desire to lessen the impact of his/her treachery. This mis-guided thinking will do far more harm than good to Dig and Regret's R. Until Regret has addressed this issue fully, progress in their R will be very, very difficult.


----------



## Regret214

I have been following the discussion here on our thread. Most of which I have discussed with Dig. Although I have been silent in your eyes, I am far from removed from efforts of R and the journey of self discovery that I am on. I spent an hour in IC this morning and more than that discussing my IC conversation with Dig. While I investigate the depths of my psyche, all that I find will be shared with Dig. He is my partner on this path. Neither of us dictates or “manages” the direction of our R...we follow the course that it takes. Some days there are troubled seas and some days it’s clear sailing, but neither of us forgets that we are dealing with a process that we know nothing about and is going to take a tremendous amount of work to get through.

There are a lot of suppositions as to how I could have had a LTA that was only about sex. This is an issue that I have been greatly struggling to understand myself. There are aspects of it that I have yet to understand, but let me take a moment to clarify for you what I have learned thus far. 

When I met the OM, I found him charming and attractive. He showed me attention in a way that I hadn’t had in a long time. We would talk and laugh. Very much like any relationship would start. I started to like him! I started to get excited at the prospect of talking to him or seeing him. This initial part of the A was most definitely an EA. This led to a PA. After a couple months, I acknowledged to myself that what I was doing was wrong. I ended the A.

A few months later, the courtship began again and I was drawn back in. I soon realized that the OM was only courting me to get in my pants. The conversations became less frequent and less stimulating. It got to the point that the only calls I received from the OM were to find out if there was any opportunity to hook up.

Now, what I ask myself is... why did I let it continue? I knew the OM was only interested in sex. I knew that I was not getting, nor would get, any emotional connection with this man. So why? I am working on understanding this through IC and conversations with Dig, but this is where I am starting.... When I ask myself what I was getting out of seeing the OM, the answer is a sense of satisfaction that I pleased him. I felt validated that I was able to please him and that he wanted me to please him. Healthy? No f**g way!

I have spent so much time lying to myself about the A, my marriage, Dig, and my self. I am now on a desperate mission to find the truth within me. So much has already been revealed through our R, but there is so much in me, in my actions, that I need to understand. Dig is standing by my side. This is his choice. I have not begged him to stay. My hope is, however, that when I discover myself, he will still love me and want to stand by me.


----------



## MAP

MAP said:


> Regret,
> 
> How long passed from the moment Dig confronted you about the affair until you knew you wanted to be with Dig and save your marriage? Was it minutes, hours, days, weeks? Can you tell us any more about what your thought process was at that time?
> 
> I will try to clarify my question: You indicate that you had been blaming Dig for your negative view of the marriage. How quickly did your view of Dig and/or your marriage change after he confronted you?
> 
> I understand that some times the change in view that a WS has of the BS can occur gradually, particularly if the BS is working to improve their weaknesses. That would not seem to to be the case for Dig. He did not seem to need to improve himself or his rank to trigger a change in your view of him. Please address if this point if you can.
> 
> Also Badbane asked about the the moment you "shut the door" in terms of beginning the PA. He gave a good example of what he meant. I hope you can answer his questions about that moment. Here's a link to his post. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/51527-dig-regret214s-q-thread-12.html#post925922


Regret, can you still try to answer questions quoted above.


----------



## warlock07

> Dig is standing by my side. This is his choice. I have not begged him to stay.


Don't know how to make sense of this. Good in one sense and very bad in some other ways


----------



## In_The_Wind

Regret I was just reading yr response and I was curious if you felt the om provided some type of companionship as dig was gone I take it a lot during his flying days keep up the self discovery
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Dig, what was Regret's relationship with the OMW?


----------



## happyman64

Regret,

All I am going to say is keep working on finding you, the "real" you.

You owe it to yourself and you owe it to Dig.

Do not stop until you know who you really are and why you had the A as well as kept going back to the OM.

Few waywards rarely have the support of their BS in this endeavor.

You are very lucky that Dig is supporting you through this soul searching via IC.

I do hope you realize just how much Dig loves you.

And I am glad you posted.

Keep Going!!!

HM64


----------



## Regret214

MAP said:


> Regret, can you still try to answer questions quoted above.


I will in the morning. I haven't had an opportunity tonight to go back and address previous questions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

warlock07 said:


> Don't know how to make sense of this. Good in one sense and very bad in some other ways


Could you please clarify your concern.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

In_The_Wind said:


> Regret I was just reading yr response and I was curious if you felt the om provided some type of companionship as dig was gone I take it a lot during his flying days keep up the self discovery
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Thank you for you support. and, yes, in the beginning I did find companionship. That didn't last, however.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

warlock07 said:


> Dig, what was Regret's relationship with the OMW?


I knew her, met her once or twice, but we didn't have any sort of relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Regret214 said:


> Dig is standing by my side. This is his choice. I have not begged him to stay





warlock07 said:


> Don't know how to make sense of this. Good in one sense and very bad in some other ways





Regret214 said:


> Could you please clarify your concern.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm guessing that what Warlock meant that it is good for you that Dig is standing by you, but that he was concerned that you weren't begging him to stay? Warlock, am I right? But, if so, Warlock you took her quote out of context because her next sentence was that "My hope is, however, that when I discover myself, he will still love me and want to stand by me."

I think that, perhaps, Regret might be feeling as though she doesn't have a right to ask/beg him to stay so she just hopes that he continues to choose to as she continues with her IC and self discovery. That's my two cents....


----------



## iJordan

Empty Inside said:


> I'm guessing that what Warlock meant that it is good for you that Dig is standing by you, but that he was concerned that you weren't begging him to stay? Warlock, am I right? But, if so, Warlock you took her quote out of context because her next sentence was that "My hope is, however, that when I discover myself, he will still love me and want to stand by me."
> 
> I think that, perhaps, Regret might be feeling as though she doesn't have a right to ask/beg him to stay so she just hopes that he continues to choose to as she continues with her IC and self discovery. That's my two cents....


I don't think he took her quote out of context; I read that and was concerned by the phrasing, too. Perhaps inflection and intent is being lost in translation, but her grammar conveys apathy. Even the quote you offered is concerning, as it is still about her: 



> _'...when I discover *myself*, he will still love *me* and want to stand by *me*.'_


Further, I don't see how that changes the context of her earlier sentence. To me, I see (paraphrased harshly): _'I didn't ask him to stick by me, and if he doesn't like who I turn out to be when I find myself, then I'm not begging him to stay.'_

I hope I'm wrong, but there seems to be a disproportionate focus on Regret 'finding herself'.


----------



## SomedayDig

I think its pertinent that Regret "finds her self" in all of this.

I don't need her to beg me. I don't WANT her to beg me. What's important to me is that she is working extremely hard to fix her deep seeded issues so that WE can work together.

I think a lot of sh_t gets lost in translation. And I'll be honest...it's kind of f'ng hard to read some of this stuff at times.

WE are working on reconciliation. Guess what? I've had a lot of f'ng self reflection too. I hope that's not a bad thing.


----------



## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> I think that, perhaps, Regret might be feeling as though she doesn't have a right to ask/beg him to stay so she just hopes that he continues to choose to as she continues with her IC and self discovery. That's my two cents....


Thank you. I think you get it.

Sorry, all...but I'm really getting f'ng tired of the constant second guessing my decision. 

I get it. A LOT of you have been hurt by this sh_t. It f'ng sucks moose balls. BUT, please...for the love of God let YOUR sh_t stay in your head and not come out when someone (me) is telling you that I am working on reconciliation. It really doesn't help.

If anyone wishes to bash me about this...go ahead. It will fall on deaf ears. I'm 44 f'ng years old. I'm not an idiot. I've seen a lot of the world and life in and of itself. 

I'm not f'ng blind.


----------



## EI

iJordan said:


> I hope I'm wrong, but there seems to be a disproportionate focus on Regret 'finding herself'.


I don't think she is capable of giving any more than this right now. I think she has to work on herself before she can truly begin to try to make amends for the damage to herself, her husband, her children and, perhaps, countless others.

I can see that a lot of her comments sound devoid of emotion, as-a-matter-of-fact, and somewhat detached, even. And, yet, with Dig we see so much love, compassion and mercy towards his wife. We must assume that he sees more than we see, he knows more than we know, he understands more than we understand and he feels towards her what we do not feel. He, obviously, has a great capacity for love, understanding and forgiveness. Regret reminds me in many ways of my husband, although I was the WW in my own relationship. Right now she is extremely shut down (at least that is what I think.) She doesn't have the necessary coping skills, yet, to truly face her demons. She isn't ready. Somewhere, deep inside there is a dam waiting to burst, and when it does all of these emotions, pain, unresolved issues from only God knows where, etc., are going to come flooding out. I think the affair was her way of self-medicating, it was an escape and now she has retreated inside of herself again. But, she is beginning to do the work on herself so that she can heal from the inside out. If Dig can stand by her throughout this then, perhaps, they can have a better, stronger and more amazing marriage than they ever thought possible. If not, then he will know that he gave it everything in his power.


----------



## Badblood

SomedayDig said:


> Thank you. I think you get it.
> 
> Sorry, all...but I'm really getting f'ng tired of the constant second guessing my decision.
> 
> I get it. A LOT of you have been hurt by this sh_t. It f'ng sucks moose balls. BUT, please...for the love of God let YOUR sh_t stay in your head and not come out when someone (me) is telling you that I am working on reconciliation. It really doesn't help.
> 
> If anyone wishes to bash me about this...go ahead. It will fall on deaf ears. I'm 44 f'ng years old. I'm not an idiot. I've seen a lot of the world and life in and of itself.
> 
> I'm not f'ng blind.


Dig, you need to control your temper. Remember, you and Regret came here, we didn't come to you. Questions regarding Regret's emotional involvement with the Om are not only relevant but necessary. Regret, you are now beginning to understand what many of us have been saying all along. There was a definite emotional element to your affair, and denying it only makes R even harder for both of you. You received attention from the Om and understanding ... this is emotional involvement. You had a level of attraction to and for the OM's personality.....this is emotional involvement. You derived satisfaction from his desire and companionship.... this is emotional involvement. You see? If you break it down, it's relatively easy to find, and acknowledge. For at least part of your affair, you were more of a wife to the Om than to Dig. This is common in LTA's , and you are definitely not the Lone Ranger. Why was it so hard to admit this? Don't you feel that Dig deserves to know your mindset during your affair? You need to work very hard on your honesty, humility, and compassion. Dig deserves your best efforts. YOUR VERY BEST EFFORTS. Now go read a novel, play with Dig, jump into the hot tub, or watch some TV or a movie and RELAX. A Long Island Ice Tea wouldn't be out of order.


----------



## DawnD

SomedayDig said:


> Thank you. I think you get it.
> 
> Sorry, all...but I'm really getting f'ng tired of the constant second guessing my decision.
> 
> I get it. A LOT of you have been hurt by this sh_t. It f'ng sucks moose balls. BUT, please...for the love of God let YOUR sh_t stay in your head and not come out when someone (me) is telling you that I am working on reconciliation. It really doesn't help.
> 
> If anyone wishes to bash me about this...go ahead. It will fall on deaf ears. I'm 44 f'ng years old. I'm not an idiot. I've seen a lot of the world and life in and of itself.
> 
> I'm not f'ng blind.


Keep in mind Dig, you two were doing this with the intent to help and possibly get some other input. That being said, you don't owe anyone here any explanations. People will question to try and make you think and analyze, and it can get to be too much all at one time.


----------



## Regret214

badbane said:


> What/when did she decide to go down this path.
> 
> *It was not a conscious decision that one day I woke up and said "I need to have an affair". It just happened. Was I looking for attention prior to the A from other men? Yes. But I never really considered having more than a man flirting with me and me in return. I had never before given my phone number out and didn't know what I would do if the OM ever called. The fact is, he did. And I liked it. It was this moment that the tables turned.*
> 
> I realized then that men and women really can't be friends.
> 
> *I completely agree with this! NOW!!!!*
> 
> Do you remember that moment Regret that moment when you shut the door. For me that moment is etched into my brain like a painting.


The moment I shut the door what when I hung up the phone after my first conversation with the OM. I had been drawn in to a place that felt so good compared to how I was feeling. I was depressed and angry, and all of a sudden I had a feeling of excitement and self worth.


----------



## Regret214

MAP said:


> Regret,
> 
> How long passed from the moment Dig confronted you about the affair until you knew you wanted to be with Dig and save your marriage?
> 
> *I knew immediately that I wanted to save my marriage. I knew months, even years before Dday, but I had trapped myself in a routine of betrayal and lies and honestly didn't know where to even begin. I was afraid of the truth and afraid that we were so far gone that there was no hope.*
> 
> Can you tell us any more about what your thought process was at that time?
> 
> *The best way that I can describe my thoughts and feelings is that I was in a state of shock. A big part of me felt relief that the A could end but I had no idea what was ahead for my marriage and for me. Physically speaking, I had spent years with back pain and heart palpitations. Within a day or two after Dday, they were gone.*
> 
> You indicate that you had been blaming Dig for your negative view of the marriage. How quickly did your view of Dig and/or your marriage change after he confronted you?
> 
> *I was almost immediately awakened to what was real and what was not. Initially, out of defense, I tried to continue my cycle of blame, but very quickly (within a day) recognized that my negative views were my own way of deferring any blame on myself and I recognized that I had been lying to myself (and Dig) for years.*
> 
> I understand that some times the change in view that a WS has of the BS can occur gradually, particularly if the BS is working to improve their weaknesses. That would not seem to to be the case for Dig. He did not seem to need to improve himself or his rank to trigger a change in your view of him. Please address if this point if you can.
> 
> *No, he did not. I just saw him for who he is for the first time in a VERY long time.*


----------



## Regret214

Empty Inside said:


> I don't think she is capable of giving any more than this right now. I think she has to work on herself before she can truly begin to try to make amends for the damage to herself, her husband, her children and, perhaps, countless others.
> 
> *Thank you for seeing this. It is so important for the future of my marriage to truly be in touch with ME!!!!*
> 
> I can see that a lot of her comments sound devoid of emotion, as-a-matter-of-fact, and somewhat detached, even.
> 
> *What you see here on TAM is very different from the Regret that Dig sees. My post of "returning to TAM" was written in a document and pasted into the forum. I tend to not lay my emotions right out there for you all. I learned so much of this from my mother. She was and is the master of emotional denial and control. Between Dig and me, I am much more open and full of emotion. To you, I keep the control.*
> 
> Right now she is extremely shut down (at least that is what I think.)
> 
> *Much less so than it would appear, but to a degree, yes.*
> 
> She doesn't have the necessary coping skills, yet, to truly face her demons. She isn't ready. Somewhere, deep inside there is a dam waiting to burst, and when it does all of these emotions, pain, unresolved issues from only God knows where, etc., are going to come flooding out.
> 
> *Very true.*
> 
> I think the affair was her way of self-medicating, *ABSOLUTELY*
> 
> it was an escape and now she has retreated inside of herself again.
> 
> *I have had times of retreat, yes....however, the last few weeks have helped me see that it is OK to be out there and open up. There is still a lot to be learned, but I am aware now of the signs of retreat, and fight it off. It hasn't served me well.*
> 
> But, she is beginning to do the work on herself so that she can heal from the inside out. If Dig can stand by her throughout this then, perhaps, they can have a better, stronger and more amazing marriage than they ever thought possible.
> 
> *Despite the pain and anger, we are already on our way to this. There is still a long way to go, I know this, but it can only get better.*


----------



## Regret214

Badblood said:


> Dig, you need to control your temper.


I was sitting next to Dig as he wrote last night. He was very much in control. Hurting, yes....Angry, no!


----------



## Regret214

Badblood said:


> Questions regarding Regret's emotional involvement with the Om are not only relevant but necessary. Regret, you are now beginning to understand what many of us have been saying all along. There was a definite emotional element to your affair, and denying it only makes R even harder for both of you. You received attention from the Om and understanding ... this is emotional involvement. You had a level of attraction to and for the OM's personality.....this is emotional involvement. You derived satisfaction from his desire and companionship.... this is emotional involvement. You see? If you break it down, it's relatively easy to find, and acknowledge. For at least part of your affair, you were more of a wife to the Om than to Dig. This is common in LTA's , and you are definitely not the Lone Ranger. Why was it so hard to admit this? Don't you feel that Dig deserves to know your mindset during your affair?


Badblood, I definitely understand! And I have listened to you and others! What unfortunately gets lost on these forums is the time spent between BS and WS when away from the blue screen. This is a conversation that Dig and I have have had and a recognition that I have made, to him. I took some time away from TAM....I did not take time away from R. Dig chooses not to speak for me (most of the time ), and lets me address your (all posters) questions to you when I am ready to share. What you hear here is not new revaluation....it is only after great deliberation and discovery with Dig that I share here.


----------



## iJordan

SomedayDig said:


> *I don't need her to beg me. I don't WANT her to beg me. * What's important to me is that she is working extremely hard to fix her deep seeded issues so that WE can work together.


This sounds like cognitive dissonance to me... If she's showing you what you need to see from her, that fundamentally, that's all that matters. But, her choice of words could easily suggest indifference—if not stubbornness and a lack of real remorse.



SomedayDig said:


> I think a lot of sh_t gets lost in translation. And I'll be honest...it's kind of f'ng hard to read some of this stuff at times.


Like I said, I hope that is the case. You know what you need from her better than any of us. I wouldn't want my spouse to beg; I would, however, want her to feel strongly enough about me that if came to it, she would be willing to.

Look, I'm going to shoot straight with you and I hope you don't take offense. I think your wife's soul-searching is a deflection; it shifts the focus from her actions and subsequent responsibility. I also think you are enabling it because of your desire to reconcile.


----------



## badbane

Regret214 said:


> The moment I shut the door what when I hung up the phone after my first conversation with the OM. I had been drawn in to a place that felt so good compared to how I was feeling. I was depressed and angry, and all of a sudden I had a feeling of excitement and self worth.


It was that early on? I mean yes there is that feeling and I get that part. Was there a point when you knew things were about to get physical, that you realized what you were about to do? That you had second thoughts? Did you run into that one point where you realized you were turning your back on Dig? 

( i know these are hard questions and if you don't feel like answering pm me or just answer dig. I am asking these questions because I know that at some point I would have to know the answer to this questions to move forward.)


----------



## Badblood

iJordan said:


> This sounds like cognitive dissonance to me... If she's showing you what you need to see from her, that fundamentally, that's all that matters. But, her choice of words could easily suggest indifference—if not stubbornness and a lack of real remorse.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, I hope that is the case. You know what you need from her better than any of us. I wouldn't want my spouse to beg; I would, however, want her to feel strongly enough about me that if came to it, she would be willing to.
> 
> Look, I'm going to shoot straight with you and I hope you don't take offense. I think your wife's soul searching is a deflection; it shifts the focus from her actions and subsequent responsibility. I also think you are enabling it because of your desire to reconcile.


Both Dig and Regret, for their own reasons tend to minimize and evade. Maybe I should say that Regret minimizes and Dig supports her efforts to do so, because of his love for her and desire to R. Whether this is going to work for them or not, remains to be seen. Until I finally decided that enough was enough, I did much the same thing with my ex.


----------



## mr.smith

I was in a similar situation as you, Dig.

This thread totally resonates with me on so many different levels. It's like stepping back into that awful place again. 


Dig-

Do you feel the last five years were a farce?

Do you consider this a "new" marriage now?


----------



## SomedayDig

iJordan said:


> This sounds like cognitive dissonance to me... If she's showing you what you need to see from her, that fundamentally, that's all that matters. But, her choice of words could easily suggest indifference—if not stubbornness and a lack of real remorse.
> 
> *She has shown honest remorse. What is read here is not what is seen in real life.*
> 
> Like I said, I hope that is the case. You know what you need from her better than any of us. I wouldn't want my spouse to beg; I would, however, want her to feel strongly enough about me that if came to it, she would be willing to.
> 
> *I don't think she would want me to beg, either. Hell, she said that in her post, too. She has told me from the beginning...last night even...that if I can't do this, then I need to leave to take care of myself.*
> 
> Look, I'm going to shoot straight with you and I hope you don't take offense. I think your wife's soul searching is a deflection; it shifts the focus from her actions and subsequent responsibility. I also think you are enabling it because of your desire to reconcile.


*Again, you would have to be here to fully understand the conversations we have regarding this. We have just talked for over an hour about the affair and it's effect on my soul. Her search for her own answers is just that...hers. We constantly reflect on the affair and its horrible outcome on a daily basis. It is never covered or glossed over. It is dealt with head on. And it hurts. Again...her IC issues are hers that she is dealing with. That they will help us with the affair issues is a positive. It definitely isn't overshadowing her affair or its effect.*



badbane said:


> It was that early on? I mean yes there is that feeling and I get that part. Was there a point when you knew things were about to get physical, that you realized what you were about to do? That you had second thoughts? Did you run into that one point where you realized you were turning your back on Dig?
> 
> ( i know these are hard questions and if you don't feel like answering pm me or just answer dig. I am asking these questions because I know that at some point I would have to know the answer to this questions to move forward.)


*I appreciate you saying that badbane, but anything Regret has to say here is absolutely nothing that I haven't heard before. Is this hard for me to read about, still? Yes. But I honestly feel it is necessary to see it in black and white sometimes.*



mr.smith said:


> I was in a similar situation as you, Dig.
> 
> This thread brings back so many different memories and emotions. It's like stepping back into that awful place again.
> 
> 
> Dig-
> 
> Do you feel the last five years were a farce?
> 
> Do you consider this a "new" marriage now?


Thanks for the questions Smith.

1. Partly, yes. I feel that five years of my life have been faked. Oh, there were times during that span that Regret and I had great fun with each other and our kids. However...THOSE times are tainted in my eyes. I look at pictures of our family. Doing fun things. Holiday time. Vacation time. And right now, I always think "and she was f'ng that guy"...

2. Yes. I have absolutely thought that. This is square one of a new marriage. I'm not gonna count those 5 years. They just don't f'ng count. She was not my betrothed. Period.


----------



## Regret214

badbane said:


> Was there a point when you knew things were about to get physical, that you realized what you were about to do? That you had second thoughts? Did you run into that one point where you realized you were turning your back on Dig?
> 
> *That would be when I agreed to see him again, and invited him to my house. I was not ignorant of what I was agreeing to. I knew I was turning my back on Dig the moment the OM kissed me. I hesitated, but ignored my conscience and kissed him back.*
> 
> ( i know these are hard questions and if you don't feel like answering pm me or just answer dig. I am asking these questions because I know that at some point I would have to know the answer to this questions to move forward.)


These ARE difficult questions and seeing my answers in black and white is very painful. But, if answering them helps others....than I am willing to do that.


----------



## Regret214

Badblood said:


> Both Dig and Regret, for their own reasons tend to minimize and evade. Maybe I should say that Regret minimizes and Dig supports her efforts to do so, because of his love for her and desire to R. Whether this is going to work for them or not, remains to be seen. Until I finally decided that enough was enough, I did much the same thing with my ex.


I will admit to having minimized my A to you as well as Dig, but by no means does he enable me to do so. He calls me out more often than not. Towards some posters on this thread, he defends me, yes. But that is because he knows how hard he challenges me and doesn't allow me to hide from him. And, I think that he feels it it only his right to challenge me in this way, not the members of TAM. Again, so much goes unseen when the blue screen is silent.


----------



## SomedayDig

Regret214 said:


> These ARE difficult questions and seeing my answers in black and white is very painful. *But, if answering them helps others*....than I am willing to do that.


And me.....


----------



## mr.smith

Abso-_freakin'_-lutely! 

It feels like those moments were stolen from me, or they belonged to someone else. At least to me it does.


Unlike yourself, I chose not to reconcile. I knew right away I could never forgive such an indiscretion. No sense in dragging out a false R on my end. I was done.

Did you already know you were leaning toward reconciliation, or did you ponder the situation before coming to your decision? I'm aware that you have children, so I'm inclined to believe this was a factor in you staying. We had none.


----------



## SomedayDig

Smith...it was actually a couple days to really say I wanted to reconcile fully. In the initial hours, I did stay when I looked up the stairs to where my children slept and made a conscious decision that I could not just "walk out" that night.

Let me be clear, however. I am not staying for the sake of our children.


----------



## badbane

Regret do you feel/realize now, that the OM was more than likely taking advantage of you? Regret did you at the time of the A turned from EA to PA feel you did not have a way out? (i.e. You wanted to stop/come clean. However you felt trapped and decided to do nothing? )
Do you feel that if a similar situation happened again that you would be in the same situation? 

Dig during the time you now know of the Affair did you notice a difference? Do you think that you were blissfully ignorant? (ie you knew something was up but chose to ignore it?) Are you blaming yourself for this in anyway?

Dig if regret came to you and said that OM or some new guy was starting to get too close. Would you be able to trust her or would this cause a backslide?


----------



## SomedayDig

badbane said:


> Dig during the time you now know of the Affair did you notice a difference? Do you think that you were blissfully ignorant? (ie you knew something was up but chose to ignore it?) Are you blaming yourself for this in anyway?
> 
> *Honestly, the only thing I thought of was that she seemed to dress a little sexier. That was it as far as outward stuff. After talking with Regret, she admitted that the xOM made her feel sexy and that's how she expressed it. I don't think I was blissfully ignorant of it. Again, being away from home so much is why I had zero clue as to her deception. It was literally only 5 months after leaving my flying job that I caught her. I really think that says something. As far as blaming myself in any way...well, man...that's kind of a tough question. I blame myself for MY lack of communication with Regret from the time of the miscarriage. But that is all. She chose to have this affair. I take absolutely NO blame for that. I will say, that I see where my flying career allowed her to do things - hence, I have a few issues about having been away from home. For so long.*
> 
> Dig if regret came to you and said that OM or some new guy was starting to get too close. Would you be able to trust her or would this cause a backslide?


If she came to me tomorrow and said that a new guy (cuz xOM knows he'd get a knife in his throat) was starting to get too close, I would trust her for one reason: Awareness. I don't think she was aware in one bit what was going on in her brain. She wasn't in touch with her self, her id if you will. She let her ego do all the talking. She let her ego take control.

Now, knowing what she does, I don't think she would lapse back into that. As I've said before: If she does, then she's the f'ng devil and will probably kill me in my sleep anyways!

As for causing a backslide, it might give me pause. Yes. However, I would probably be more up front with another guy and tell him in a "polite" way that he would best be served by backing off.


----------



## Regret214

badbane said:


> Regret do you feel/realize now, that the OM was more than likely taking advantage of you? Regret did you at the time of the A turned from EA to PA feel you did not have a way out? (i.e. You wanted to stop/come clean. However you felt trapped and decided to do nothing? )
> Do you feel that if a similar situation happened again that you would be in the same situationro?


I most definitely felt taken advantage of, and didn't know how to get out. But, the knowledge I have gained about myself, Dig, and my marriage would prevent me from ever being in that situation again. In my case, with knowledge comes strength.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## In_The_Wind

Hey guys hope things are going well for both of yall. How would yall feel about posting different threads like One for dig and one for regret that are separate say digs could be in the men's club and regrets could.be in the ladies lounge and yall would consider these private meaning these two threads would not be read by the other just an idea. Dig are you also attending IC ? Take care ITW
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

In the Wind...totally would be cool to have a separate thing going in the men's club and ladies lounge. I'd be totally down with that. However, the one thing that we agreed to when I came here was that "no secrets" thing. In other words every PM either of us get is shared with the other. So...while I would certainly NOT post on her thread in the lounge nor she in the club, we would read each others threads as per our agreement.

I totally Dig where you're coming from, man and I think it's a good idea.

IC for me. Long...loooooong story. Let's just say that I attended IC for 7 years for coming to grips with my history. I learned about sexual abuse I encountered, as well as myriads of others I needed to deal with to become a healthy adult.

I agree IC for me right now would help me progress a little quicker with the trauma I have suffered as a result of Regret's affair, I feel I would have to truly go through my entire adult life - as I did before - for any counselor to have a full picture.

I know where I've been. I just take a little more time to work on the present right now. You guys here are my IC in effect. Don't take it personal or lightly. Just take it as it is.


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## In_The_Wind

I was concerned about PTSD type issues with you , I just think it might help to have separate threads that yall could process personal stuff and you both could feel safe in posting whatever was on yr minds and not feel judged or miscontrued by the other then you could also have yr couple thread here just a thought. Take care my man
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Thank you. I think you get it.


Of course, you're welcome. I think I do, too. Although Regret's A lasted 5 years and mine lasted "only" 15 months, I didn't choose to end the relationship, I was caught. I, actually, relate to some of the things that Regret is saying. Her appearance of being, somewhat, shut down, right now, reminds me of my husband. That's her safe retreat.... inside. That was H's coping mechanism, too. Of course, I realize that you are seeing so much more of who she really is than we ever will. But, when Regret lets "bits" of emotion out (in very guarded small doses.... at least with TAM.... which is perfectly fine because neither of you owe TAM members anything) then I began to see pieces of myself in her. I think she is a pleaser. I believe she may find her value through the eyes and approval of others. Of course, we all need to learn that our value comes from within. Although, believing that is easier said than done.

There are certain things that you have alluded to in her past which may explain the root cause of her "pleasing" nature. I could be so far off base, because I know that I'm projecting, but this is what I am reading between the lines. Of course, I was in therapy before my A, during, and now post-affair. So, as twisted as it may seem, I was already working on myself before D-Day. I was never able to reconcile my choices with my values and it caused me a great deal of emotional torment. Yet, I continued, because as much as it hurt me to betray my husband, my children and myself, it also filled a need in me that had been unmet for such a very long time. My self-worth came from being a Christian, a daughter, a wife, a mother and a friend. I took care of my parents for years and when they passed away, I truly lost a huge part of my identity. Because of a series of traumatic events over the last several years my faith had become shattered.... still working on that one. The summer before my A began, I lost a life-long friend due to a misunderstanding. Her husband made a pass at me... well, like a hundred over several months. I didn't take him up on it, but I didn't "tell" on him either. I was hoping that it would go away. I discussed it in therapy and I knew that it was going to end badly. I should have handled it differently from the start. I should have told her immediately, but I knew that he would lie. He said he would. He had been doing this to her friends, co-workers, sisters, pretty much any woman on two legs for years. Everyone knew it, she never believed them and people just quit telling her.... it wasn't worth the drama. She always believed him. I, finally, told my H because the guy wasn't stopping and I didn't want to take the blame for his inappropriate behavior. My H didn't react well. He was completely shut down on me emotionally and his response was "Well, what do you want me to do about it?" Wrong answer. I said "nothing, forget about it." It all blew up a month later. Her whole family, including her sisters, mother, her own daughter (not his) knew the truth, but he lied and she believed him. I lost my best friend. I was devastated. So, there goes being a Christian, a daughter and a friend. On to being a wife and mother, because that's all I had left. But, to be honest, my marriage had been a shell for years and no matter how much I communicated to H that our marriage was in trouble, he simply "kept putting one foot in front of the other, doing the same thing." He basically told me that nothing was EVER going to change. This was our lot in life. But, I still had my kids, right? Yes, but without going into any detail, last year was the year from Hell with two of our sons. Long story short, at this point, all of my children are doing well and I am very proud of where they are in their lives today.

By January of last year, I had reached my breaking point and had no idea of who I was anymore. Was I a daughter? NO, my parents were dead. I was Christian, but my faith was shattered. I was a friend.... without a best friend. I was wife whose husband was completely withdrawn and distant, both, emotionally and physically. Finally, we went through a serious crises with our two youngest sons and H & I could not even agree on how to handle it. I used to keep a journal of quotes that would just pop into my mind during those very dark days. One that comes to mind now from that time is "Doors closing in on me, voices fade away, the silent cloud of loneliness envelops me more each day." Under the circumstances, I should have gotten a divorce, but for reasons that I have explained at length, I felt that I couldn't. All I can say is that, at this point, I could not be happier that I didn't. I hope that you don't mind my posting this long story on your thread. It basically summarizes 198 posts in my original thread and 727 posts on H's. I wanted to share our story with you and Regret because I feel that, although our stories are different and the circumstances vary, I feel somewhat connected to both of you in your journey. I know that it can be tough here when the comments are constantly filled with such negativity. I know that there were days when I got so discouraged and then just one or two encouraging posts would lift my spirits and it really helped. And, I agree with you, both, that to move forward in your journey together, you have to first begin your own journey of self-discovery and understanding. It doesn't happen overnight. I believe in the two of you. But, who am I? I'm a WW who is only just beginning my own R story with my husband.


----------



## warlock07

iJordan said:


> This sounds like cognitive dissonance to me... If she's showing you what you need to see from her, that fundamentally, that's all that matters. But, her choice of words could easily suggest indifference—if not stubbornness and a lack of real remorse.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, I hope that is the case. You know what you need from her better than any of us. I wouldn't want my spouse to beg; I would, however, want her to feel strongly enough about me that if came to it, she would be willing to.
> 
> Look, I'm going to shoot straight with you and I hope you don't take offense. I think your wife's soul searching is a deflection; it shifts the focus from her actions and subsequent responsibility. I also think you are enabling it because of your desire to reconcile.


Half- like.


----------



## warlock07

Regret214 said:


> *I most definitely felt taken advantage of, and didn't know how to get out.* But, the knowledge I have gained about myself, Dig, and my marriage would prevent me from ever being in that situation again. In my case, with knowledge comes strength.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree and call BS on this. Why is the woman always made the victim? Because it suits the stereotype? If I remember correctly, it was you that invited him to your home right? It was a symbiotic relationship where you fed off each other and one isn't much better than the other.


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## SomedayDig

Don't be so quick on the trigger, man. Maybe, if again, everyone takes a step back and reads this stuff in context, you might see that after the first 6 months the guy stopped calling and filling her ego. Ya know, if she or I have to repeat another fifty times that she acknowledged that she invited him over first but later tried to end it a few months later and he initially agreed but then started back calling and fishing and played on her weaknesses... Well, I'll probably f'ng explode.

I've seen the cell bills. I've seen where it stopped and then started with him texting or calling over and over and over BEFORE she answered. Yes! She banged the guy for FIVE years. Does that mean that he wasn't preying on her f'ng weaknesses??

Now, I'm sure this post is simply going to play into the whole Dig is brainwashed or whatever term comes to mind. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am here. With Regret sitting beside me. Jesus...I don't even know how to keep explaining...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

badbane said:


> Regret do you feel/realize now, that the OM was more than likely taking advantage of you? Regret did you at the time of the A turned from EA to PA feel you did not have a way out? (i.e. You wanted to stop/come clean. However you felt trapped and decided to do nothing? )
> Do you feel that if a similar situation happened again that you would be in the same situation?
> 
> Dig during the time you now know of the Affair did you notice a difference? Do you think that you were blissfully ignorant? (ie you knew something was up but chose to ignore it?) Are you blaming yourself for this in anyway?
> 
> Dig if regret came to you and said that OM or some new guy was starting to get too close. Would you be able to trust her or would this cause a backslide?


This is total and complete horsesh*t. Badbane , this was a thoughtless post and not helpful in any way. Blaming the AP for the affair is the epitome of deflection and evasion. Most posters have tried really hard to show Regret that she was responsible for her actions, and the SHE, not the OM, was to blame for the affair and the harm it caused to her marriage. It doesn't matter how much he sweet-talked her, sweet-talk only works when it falls on receptive ears. If Dig or Regret begin to believe that the "bad OM) was to blame, their R will be set back months maybe years. Badbane, do you not understand responsibility?


----------



## Badblood

Regret214 said:


> I most definitely felt taken advantage of, and didn't know how to get out. But, the knowledge I have gained about myself, Dig, and my marriage would prevent me from ever being in that situation again. In my case, with knowledge comes strength.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Regret, this is evasion, pure and simple, and I had hoped for Dig's sake , that you were past such thoughts. You married Dig, you cheated, the OM did nothing that you didn't allow, and you COULD have said no. Don't jeopardize your R by trying to evade responsibility, please, for Dig and for your own maturity.


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## keko

I can never understand how any man can forgive a wife that banged another man for 5 years, in his house. I hope you know what you're doing dig but I do wish both of you good luck on the R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

SomedayDig said:


> Don't be so quick on the trigger, man. Maybe, if again, everyone takes a step back and reads this stuff in context, you might see that after the first 6 months the guy stopped calling and filling her ego. Ya know, if she or I have to repeat another fifty times that she acknowledged that she invited him over first but later tried to end it a few months later and he initially agreed but then started back calling and fishing and played on her weaknesses... Well, I'll probably f'ng explode.
> 
> I've seen the cell bills. I've seen where it stopped and then started with him texting or calling over and over and over BEFORE she answered. Yes! She banged the guy for FIVE years. Does that mean that he wasn't preying on her f'ng weaknesses??
> 
> Now, I'm sure this post is simply going to play into the whole Dig is brainwashed or whatever term comes to mind. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am here. With Regret sitting beside me. Jesus...I don't even know how to keep explaining...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dig, this is Regret evading responsibility. She didn't TRY to end it, because it continued. If she had really tried HARD, it would have been over and not gone on for 5 years. Read my other post. Sweet-talk ONLY works when it falls on receptive ears. Regret , herself has said that if she had not been caught, the affair would likely have continued. It doesn't matter, in the least , who called whom, what matters is she acted and went to him.


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## Badblood

Badbane, your post comes across as being trollish. You seem to be feeding on the Drama, by trying to give Regret an "out", and making up bogus scenerios that will only cause them anxious moments. Regret and Dig, the absolute BEST thing you can do for your recovery, is to forget completely, about the OM. This marriage is between you two, and the recovery is between you two. He has NO PART in either. Regret, if you have ANY remaining feelings for the OM, tell Dig immediately. If not, spit on his (OM's) grave, and be the wife you should have been.


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## iJordan

keko said:


> I can never understand how any man can forgive a wife that banged another man for 5 years, in his house. I hope you know what you're doing dig but I do wish both of you good luck on the R.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If my wife had a five-year affair and then told me she wanted time to find herself, she'd find herself with her bags packed. I still can't tell whether she is using it as an anti-inflammatory or to control the reconciliation.



Badblood said:


> Regret, this is evasion, pure and simple, and I had hoped for Dig's sake , that you were past such thoughts. You married Dig, you cheated, the OM did nothing that you didn't allow, and you COULD have said no. Don't jeopardize your R by trying to evade responsibility, please, for Dig and for your own maturity.


I completely agree. Responsibility cannot be abdicated, i.e., step up and own your s h i t! Focusing on the OM's culpability is something a bad affair apologist would do. I never saw any sense in blaming the OM—he didn't take anything that wasn't offered. Regret isn't a victim in this.


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## warlock07

SomedayDig said:


> Don't be so quick on the trigger, man. Maybe, if again, everyone takes a step back and reads this stuff in context, you might see that after the first 6 months the guy stopped calling and filling her ego. Ya know, if she or I have to repeat another fifty times that she acknowledged that she invited him over first but later tried to end it a few months later and he initially agreed but then started back calling and fishing and played on her weaknesses... Well, I'll probably f'ng explode.
> 
> I've seen the cell bills. I've seen where it stopped and then started with him texting or calling over and over and over BEFORE she answered. Yes! She banged the guy for FIVE years. Does that mean that he wasn't preying on her f'ng weaknesses??
> 
> Now, I'm sure this post is simply going to play into the whole Dig is brainwashed or whatever term comes to mind. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am here. With Regret sitting beside me. Jesus...I don't even know how to keep explaining...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is one post that I seriously disagree with you Dig.

Would it hurt your R if she was not taken advantage of ? 
Look, there is a difference between not actively pursuing the affair and taken advantage of.





> Now, knowing what she does, I don't think she would lapse back into that. As I've said before: If she does, then she's the f'ng devil and will probably kill me in my sleep anyways!


Also this quote Dig. The world is not black and white. Lots of shades of grey. She need not be evil villainous to cheat on you Dig. A weak person can do it or a nut-case can do it.


----------



## warlock07

Regret214 said:


> Dig is standing by my side. This is his choice. I have not begged him to stay.





Regret214 said:


> Could you please clarify your concern.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Empty Inside said:


> I'm guessing that what Warlock meant that it is good for you that Dig is standing by you, but that he was concerned that you weren't begging him to stay? Warlock, am I right? *But, if so, Warlock you took her quote out of context because her next sentence was that "My hope is, however, that when I discover myself, he will still love me and want to stand by me."
> *
> 
> I think that, perhaps, Regret might be feeling as though she doesn't have a right to ask/beg him to stay so she just hopes that he continues to choose to as she continues with her IC and self discovery. That's my two cents....


To some extent EI. Begging might seem fake now, I agree. But behind her words, I would also be worried if she isn't as much into reconciliation as much (if I were Dig). I may be taking it out of context but that sentence makes it seem that reconciliation is at his behest of Dig and if it fails, it is on him, not her. 


He posted this in another post


> She has told me from the beginning...last night even...that if I can't do this, then I need to leave to take care of myself.


As honest as her intentions are, I would be worried at some level.


----------



## Badblood

warlock07 said:


> This is one post that I seriously disagree with you Dig.
> 
> Would it hurt your R if she was not taken advantage of ?
> Look, there is a difference between not actively pursuing the affair and taken advantage of.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also this quote Dig. The world is not black and white. Lots of shades of grey. She need not be evil villainous to cheat on you Dig. A weak person can do it or a nut-case can do it.


How well I know>


----------



## SomedayDig

See you guys another time. This is terrible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

SomedayDig said:


> See you guys another time. This is terrible.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dig

You should take a break from TAM for a little while.

Some of these posts can drive you crazy after a while.

HM64


----------



## SomedayDig

SomedayDig said:


> I can see what you're saying about being managed. I also see another phrase in there that isn't talked about enough. That phrase is *TAKEN FOR GRANTED*.
> 
> See, I think in the end, that is the true issue. It's not that she managed me at all. She knew I was going to be flying. I would literally be thousands of miles away. Yes, she knew how much I loved her...how much I missed her.
> 
> And she took THAT for granted.
> 
> She managed her affair. She managed herself. She managed herself to a point where she lied. To _herself_. Yes, she lied to me, but worse - her self.
> 
> Regret managed to go back to childhood abuse issues (yes, I said I wasn't going to bring it up and don't expect to ever hear it again), and follow that cycle of abuse that many of us (yep...me too) have endured.
> 
> Wanna know the deepness? There. Now, you know. It doesn't excuse it one f'ng bit, though. Regret is an adult and SHE allowed her SELF to make her decisions.
> 
> She managed herSELF.
> 
> She took me for granted.





SomedayDig said:


> One thing I have learned is that I am in control of me. While it might seem somewhat disrespectful to some and discouraging to others...I'll take it as it comes and do my best to not take offense ~ unless it is a blatant comment as such.
> 
> Expressing empathy for my situation is fine. But even in my darkest times...I am okay. I accept what has happened with Regret. For *5* years she took everything that was given to her from me for granted.
> 
> She. Must live with that guilt. I have done a difficult thing here by working on reconciliation. It isn't for the feint at heart. Then again, in my professional career I was always described by my subordinates as "a captain with high integrity, character and judgement".
> 
> I actually DO carry those professional traits over to my personal life.





Regret214 said:


> I have been following the discussion here on our thread. Most of which I have discussed with Dig. Although I have been silent in your eyes, I am far from removed from efforts of R and the journey of self discovery that I am on. I spent an hour in IC this morning and more than that discussing my IC conversation with Dig. While I investigate the depths of my psyche, all that I find will be shared with Dig. He is my partner on this path. Neither of us dictates or “manages” the direction of our R...we follow the course that it takes. Some days there are troubled seas and some days it’s clear sailing, but neither of us forgets that we are dealing with a process that we know nothing about and is going to take a tremendous amount of work to get through.
> 
> There are a lot of suppositions as to how I could have had a LTA that was only about sex. This is an issue that I have been greatly struggling to understand myself. There are aspects of it that I have yet to understand, but let me take a moment to clarify for you what I have learned thus far.
> 
> When I met the OM, I found him charming and attractive. He showed me attention in a way that I hadn’t had in a long time. We would talk and laugh. Very much like any relationship would start. I started to like him! I started to get excited at the prospect of talking to him or seeing him. This initial part of the A was most definitely an EA. This led to a PA. After a couple months, I acknowledged to myself that what I was doing was wrong. I ended the A.
> 
> A few months later, the courtship began again and I was drawn back in. I soon realized that the OM was only courting me to get in my pants. The conversations became less frequent and less stimulating. It got to the point that the only calls I received from the OM were to find out if there was any opportunity to hook up.
> 
> Now, what I ask myself is... why did I let it continue? I knew the OM was only interested in sex. I knew that I was not getting, nor would get, any emotional connection with this man. So why? I am working on understanding this through IC and conversations with Dig, but this is where I am starting.... When I ask myself what I was getting out of seeing the OM, the answer is a sense of satisfaction that I pleased him. I felt validated that I was able to please him and that he wanted me to please him. Healthy? No f**g way!
> 
> I have spent so much time lying to myself about the A, my marriage, Dig, and my self. I am now on a desperate mission to find the truth within me. So much has already been revealed through our R, but there is so much in me, in my actions, that I need to understand. Dig is standing by my side. This is his choice. I have not begged him to stay. My hope is, however, that when I discover myself, he will still love me and want to stand by me.





Regret214 said:


> The moment I shut the door what when I hung up the phone after my first conversation with the OM. I had been drawn in to a place that felt so good compared to how I was feeling. I was depressed and angry, and all of a sudden I had a feeling of excitement and self worth.



Show me the hiding. Show me the covering up, masking, whatever you want to call it.

Regret has been forthright regarding her involvement with the xOM and that story hasn't changed. 

Read. Then read some more. After that...re-read what was read and try to comprehend. This isn't a game.


----------



## SomedayDig

happyman64 said:


> Dig
> 
> You should take a break from TAM for a little while.
> 
> Some of these posts can drive you crazy after a while.
> 
> HM64



Gonna go camping now. See you guys.


----------



## Wazza

I wonder how many of the posters on TAM are BS who are in so much pain that they need to nail the WS to the wall for everything as a catharsis.

The personality issues that caused my wife to cheat are still there. Always will be, and she will not talk about it, because that's the way she is. I understand her limits as a human being. Some of them I understand better than she does. 

Now, many will say "we've seen this all before, she's carrying on behind your back, draw a line man". Well, maybe you're right, but I am backing first my knowledge of her as a human. She is basically decent and while she thinks she is healed and knows better than to cheat again, I have a pretty clear idea of the circumstances where she would cheat and I try to help her avoid them. And I am more devious than she is, so I can usually tell when she is lying. I love her, and I would rather try and manage this problem than be without her.

Show me a human who definitely will never do the wrong thing no matter what...I haven't met one. 

My wife and I didn't follow many of the ideas for an ideal reconciliation, because the internet wasn't around when I discovered my wife's infidelity, and I just had to figure it out for myself. Yet we've had another 22 years, and some of the happiest times we could wish for. It's not a fairy story, we have issues, and we are still working through some aspects of the fallout of the affair. But if I were to come down on her like a ton of bricks, or expose her to what Regret has copped here, I wonder if it would have all been too much.


----------



## Badblood

Wazza said:


> I wonder how many of the posters on TAM are BS who are in so much pain that they need to nail the WS to the wall for everything as a catharsis.
> 
> The personality issues that caused my wife to cheat are still there. Always will be, and she will not talk about it, because that's the way she is. I understand her limits as a human being. Some of them I understand better than she does.
> 
> Now, many will say "we've seen this all before, she's carrying on behind your back, draw a line man". Well, maybe you're right, but I am backing first my knowledge of her as a human. She is basically decent and while she thinks she is healed and knows better than to cheat again, I have a pretty clear idea of the circumstances where she would cheat and I try to help her avoid them. And I am more devious than she is, so I can usually tell when she is lying. I love her, and I would rather try and manage this problem than be without her.
> 
> Show me a human who definitely will never do the wrong thing no matter what...I haven't met one.
> 
> My wife and I didn't follow many of the ideas for an ideal reconciliation, because the internet wasn't around when I discovered my wife's infidelity, and I just had to figure it out for myself. Yet we've had another 22 years, and some of the happiest times we could wish for. It's not a fairy story, we have issues, and we are still working through some aspects of the fallout of the affair. But if I were to come down on her like a ton of bricks, or expose her to what Regret has copped here, I wonder if it would have all been too much.


Wazza, the posters here(who are really trying to help) are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If we tell Dig the truth, then we have anger issues, if we schmooze the WS, then we are justifying his/her activities and thought patterns. We can't win. In order for Regret to face her Demons, she must reject ANY and ALL, excuses, evasions or attempts to minimize. No blaming the Om, in any way , shape or form. As another poster said, she must own ALL of the blame for the affair. How is it helpful to allow her to continue to evade? That would be like allowing an alcoholic to continue to drink. When will she ever change, if she isn't called to account? If you will notice, even when we do point out unproductive actions, we try to give examples of better ones and positive choices. Many posters have repeatedly given Dig and Regret suggestions of positive activities, helpful websites and proven methods of marriage recovery. We aren't " out to get Regret", we, or at least I, think they have a really good chance to mend their marriage.


----------



## Badblood

Regret214 said:


> I will admit to having minimized my A to you as well as Dig, but by no means does he enable me to do so. He calls me out more often than not. Towards some posters on this thread, he defends me, yes. But that is because he knows how hard he challenges me and doesn't allow me to hide from him. And, I think that he feels it it only his right to challenge me in this way, not the members of TAM. Again, so much goes unseen when the blue screen is silent.


Dig, in this post Regret admits to minimizing.


----------



## Badblood

Regret214 said:


> I most definitely felt taken advantage of, and didn't know how to get out. But, the knowledge I have gained about myself, Dig, and my marriage would prevent me from ever being in that situation again. In my case, with knowledge comes strength.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This post is an attempt at evading responsibility., and also a lie. During your family crisis, she quit, so she knew exactly how to get out of the affair. Your wife entered into the affair willingly, even eagerly. The sooner both of you admit it, the better off your R will be. Dig.....Regret I'm really trying hard to help you avoid some of the issues that caused my marriage to tank. I know you think I'm being mean, but absolutely not so. If you two can learn from the other posters, , take what I learned from my sad, failed marriage to heart, you can beat this, I KNOW you can. Love each other, support each other, communicate ABOUT EVERY ISSUE, Dig...you hold Regret to account, and Regret...you hold yourself to account and blame nobody else, and you will surely emerge from this hell, as better people. Believe it or not, I have confidence in you both.


----------



## SomedayDig

Badblood, you're done here. Don't come back into this thread. Calling Regret a liar is way over the line. Good bye. You too, *carpenoctem*. You agree she lied in her post. Don't come back. Period.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> Wazza, the posters here(who are really trying to help) are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If we tell Dig the truth, then we have anger issues, if we schmooze the WS, then we are justifying his/her activities and thought patterns. We can't win. In order for Regret to face her Demons, she must reject ANY and ALL, excuses, evasions or attempts to minimize. No blaming the Om, in any way , shape or form. As another poster said, she must own ALL of the blame for the affair. How is it helpful to allow her to continue to evade? That would be like allowing an alcoholic to continue to drink. When will she ever change, if she isn't called to account? If you will notice, even when we do point out unproductive actions, we try to give examples of better ones and positive choices. Many posters have repeatedly given Dig and Regret suggestions of positive activities, helpful websites and proven methods of marriage recovery. We aren't " out to get Regret", we, or at least I, think they have a really good chance to mend their marriage.


 My purpose of posting was not to accuse anyone, nor to say they were wrong, but rather to give an alternate perspective. Sometimes when things hang by a thread and could tip either way, encouragement can make all the difference.


----------



## Wazza

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *Wazza: *
> I guess you'd be advised to start another thread.


No, my reason for posting is to support Dig and Regret in their attempts to reconcile. Not general discussions on the nature of affairs.

I will respond to some of the other things you said where I hope my perspective may be useful input to Dig and Regret.




[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Wazza said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Show me a human who definitely will never do the wrong thing no matter what...I haven't met one._
> 
> 
> 
> Only, the ‘wrong’ we are talking about is mostly conducted at the expense of another (the BS, and the family), often blatantly so. And when it is discovered, the punishment for that wrong is SHARED by the BS and the WS.
> 
> *If it’s a wrong, it is a wrong not comparable with other wrongs we commit - becasue here, the victim of the wrong shares the punishment too (especially if you opt for reconciliation).*
Click to expand...

I can think of many situations where someone makes a bad decision and others bear some or all of the pain. That's life. Anger about it may feel good but what does it achieve?




[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Before the advent of internet, information explosion and new investigative methodologies, infidelity could be managed better, because there weren’t too many ways for a BS to find out the facts later. It was mostly based on perception, opinion (gossip), eye witnesses and personally witnessing the act. And there was no DNA testing. Aargh.


Actually it was very easy. Someone saw them kissing and told me. She came out with an explanation. I didn't buy it. I realised something was going on, started watching the situation and identifying inconsistencies between words and actions. It went on for 6 sad months. That time made it much harder for consistent lies. She never admitted a single fact I hadn't already figured out. The truth was always verbally bludgeoned out of her by calling her on lies. Regret seems to be doing better.




[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *Ironically, less knowledge helped faster healing.* The bliss of ignorance.


I know my wife f*cked another man and lied to me about it. Dig knows the same. I felt the same desire to know the details...sometimes still do....but I don't think it would have helped...it would have been me picking at an already festering scab. Let it go.

My wife absolutely did the wrong thing in a horrible way and I could write pages on the specifics of that. But she was hurting, and my best chance of healing the marriage had to include helping her to heal. That's not any sort of absolution for her acts. I'm merely saying that destroying her to prove her mistake is a phyrric victory. It's very hard to put aside the desire for revenge, and very hard to be really intimate again, but essential in my view. And can be done. I've done it.




[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> This is worrisome, that YOU still have to ensure she avoids these circumstances – it does not sound like she had taken responsibility for her hurtful choices, and reconciled conscionably, though you say she did.


She admits her mistake,, but by my standards she hasn't taken full responsibility, because she doesn't think about life the same way I do. By her standards she has confronted things.

Her healing process was a long period of individual counselling, to which I was not privy. (She had refused joint counselling at the outset, and by the time she had her own counselling I was simply aiming for a civil relationship to raise the kids, I could not imagine regaining intimacy at the time).

Her failing is to believe that you must do the right thing, and when she is not strong enough she keeps trying to be strong till she breaks. It's a trait I have now seen several times in different contexts. In the context of the affair she had a lot of unhappiness that she didn't discuss, and circumstances conspired in such a way that she fell into the affair. The details quite different from Regret, but the basic emotions were possibly rather similar.

Dig's sad memory is her taking time out from a special day together to be with the other man. My equivalent is a night when she constructed a pretext of a party to spend the night with the other man while i babysat the kids. I knew where she was and why. If I had my time over I would probably have refused. Don't know why I didn't, really.

On one level I guess I should be worried but on another level it's very helpful to understand that I am dealing with a fallible human being, and to own my part as their spouse in helping them succeed. And I have my own faults where she returns the favour.

The point is, you can go through all this Sh*t and come out the other side. And my advice to Dig in that is, work hard to be genuinely and consistently intimate again. That took the longest time for me....really it's still going on.....but it's essential to healing.


----------



## carpenoctem

SomedayDig said:


> Badblood, you're done here. Don't come back into this thread. Calling Regret a liar is way over the line. Good bye. You too, *carpenoctem*. You agree she lied in her post. Don't come back. Period.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Best of luck, Dig. Bye.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

SomedayDig said:


> Badblood, you're done here. Don't come back into this thread. Calling Regret a liar is way over the line. Good bye. You too, *carpenoctem*. You agree she lied in her post. Don't come back. Period.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not a problem.


----------



## iJordan

SomedayDig said:


> Badblood, you're done here. Don't come back into this thread. Calling Regret a liar is way over the line. Good bye. You too, *carpenoctem*. You agree she lied in her post. Don't come back. Period.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dig, you asked where she was doing this and you were shown. Now you are being childish. Honestly, you aren't far removed from plugging your ears and screaming, _'I can't hear you!'_

You should read this thread—your reactions to others' posts is a case study.


----------



## SomedayDig

Sorry, in no way did she lie in the thread he quoted. As for the evading comment, again that is an opinion that he's got based on his own failed reconciliation. Period.

If people are going to ask Regret a question, and then pick apart every response to justify their point of view, that's crap.

It's kind of like *carpenoctem* taking a question that badbane asked me, and answering it for me by using an out of context comment that I had made about how I felt during the affair and before dday.

Don't answer questions asked of me doing such. It's highly inappropriate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iJordan

SomedayDig said:


> Sorry, in no way did she lie in the thread he quoted. As for the evading comment, again that is an opinion that he's got based on his own failed reconciliation. Period.


Lie probably is harsher than necessary; however, referencing one lie isn't the same as calling someone a liar—that isn't a semantic point, either. The fact of the matter is that to say, _'I didn't know how to get out'_ is disingenuous, given previous admissions.

Also, to say, _'I felt taken advantage of'_ is really just equivocation: having a five-year affair and feeling taken advantage of is not the same as a pensioner getting bilked. The former doesn't negate culpability.



SomedayDig said:


> If people are going to ask Regret a question, and then pick apart every response to justify their point of view, that's crap.


For sure. But, ignoring _negative_ responses to your wife's posts because of a strong desire to reconcile falls under the same kind of bias...


----------



## SomedayDig

So, as you've read through this entire thread, you don't see all of the inferences made that she's a liar and manipulating everything? That's what I've seen and then told "this post is an attempt at evading and is a lie"

And I'm not supposed to read that he's calling her a liar?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

As far as negative responses, I think I've been pretty good at listening to a lot of advice that I may not agree with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iJordan

SomedayDig said:


> So, as you've read through this entire thread, you don't see all of the inferences made that she's a liar and manipulating everything? That's what I've seen and then told "this post is an attempt at evading and is a lie"
> 
> And I'm not supposed to read that he's calling her a liar?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've seen a few posters latch onto the fact that she likely isn't as confused about things as she is making out to be; that she is possibly attempting to control the reconciliation; that she is diminishing her role in the affair by claiming to be taken advantage of and that she has contradicted herself in at least one instance.

The first two points fall shy of anything other than conjecture, but the last two are fairly evident.

She has also said, albeit indirectly, that she cannot focus on the damage she has done to your marriage until she fixes herself. Superficially, that is an acceptable comment; however, that is effectively the same as: my needs>your needs. There is absolutely a time for this, but directly after a five-year affair is unacceptable.

So yes, I don't think it is a stretch to mention possible manipulation and it is certainly not to point out her evasion and contradiction [lie] (which one can do so without necessarily calling your wife a liar—as though it is an intrinsic part of her character).



SomedayDig said:


> As far as negative responses, I think I've been pretty good at listening to a lot of advice that I may not agree with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have—mostly. 'Banning' *carpenoctem* for agreeing with Badblood was not your finest moment.


----------



## SomedayDig

I agree. Possibly not a shining moment for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## snap

Good God, she cheated on you for half a decade, yet you are offended by people who doubt her remorse.


----------



## SomedayDig

Read the thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dogman

SomedayDig said:


> I agree. Possibly not a shining moment for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dig, I have followed your situation and feel compelled to add my two cents. Speaking from experience, it is entirely possible for Regret to not understand her actions during the 5 years of the A. She maybe feels like she woke up and while she was asleep a evil twin totally messed up her life. She may never understand the reason for her actions. If pressed severely enough she may make up reasons that make sense to her but may not be the real reason. It doesn't mean she will repeat, regretting her actions very badly will be enough to ensure that she will be loyal. 
I know that some people really want you to punish her by divorce and nothing less will satisfy them. It all hinges on you unfortunately. She is doing her part, your part is the hard part. Forgiveness...give it time my friend. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Falene

While working on my R and trying to return to some sense of normalcy, I see I have missed quite a bit on this one!

Here are my two cents...

For the record, I am the BS. My Dday happened one week before last Christmas on 12-18-11. My husband and I have been married seven years and have been together twelve. We have four children, two together. We are attempting the big R. I am still not okay and am working hard to be okay again. I feel my husband is doing everything possible to help me and that he is truly regretful of what he did. I also feel he was a selfish jerk and I sometimes wonder if I can reconcile and be okay with him. I am trying to "fix it" before I throw it away though.

I read Dig's post first. I then back tracked to Regret's. 

You, me, him, her cannot make a post here and restrict some sentiments if they do not break the rules of behavior that have already been set by the Admins. The only way to avoid opinions you do not want to hear is to not post in the first place. It warms my heart to see how Dig protects his wife (it says much about the potential for a successful R) but Dig you are out of line.

There is only one for sure reason why people cheat and it is because he/she wanted to. That is it. Nothing more, nothing less. 

When the WS stood at that moment in time and was presented with "to cheat or not to cheat" they chose to cheat. Were they justified? I can assure you their BS doesn't think so but others may if there was abuse or neglect but it doesn't change the fact that adultery is NOT an auto response to any less than positive situation in a marriage. It is a choice.

The wayward spouse absolutely feels there were "reasons" he/she cheated. Most people cannot take such hurtful actions for no good reason! Such a choice requires continual rationalization and justification. If the cheating spouse did not feel justified at the time he/she would have made a different choice. (Yes, there are exceptions. You have addictive sexual behavior. You have the person that has no love for their spouse. could give a crap about and other such things that can guide choices but I am talking about normal situations where infidelity takes place).

In the case where R is being attempted, the betrayed spouse must try to take the position they did have some responsibility in their spouse's infidelity. Yep, you read that right.

Now hold on, hear me out. I feel strongly about this and am ready to throw down about it so read what I say carefully. Under the idea (which I strongly believe) that the cheating spouse felt he/she had reasons to cheat, the betrayed spouse needs to hear those reasons and take them to heart. As an example, in my case my husband felt neglected and after I was no longer enraged and could think about what he said he was right...he was neglected. Stay with me here people...he was neglecting me as well but I didn't cheat and I do not feel that he is at all justified in what he did to me and our family. HOWEVER, I would be a damn fool if I did try and be a more attentive partner and give weight to this. This is especially true because I certainly wanted him to be a more attentive husband.

Anyways...

Dig and Regret are really providing a service to all of us no matter what side of the fence we are on. This is especially true of all the poor souls that have wandered here for their first time recently. Those of us that were betrayed know how desperately they are looking for answers and relief. I know, for sure, their posts would have been invaluable to me when I first came here. Perhaps we should show some thankfulness to these two?

Dig, you need to understand that opinions contrary to yours have equal value to some. You chose this place to work it out and I really feel doing so benefits many. Try to think of them and try and gain something from opposing viewpoints. If you feel someone has stepped over the line and broken the rules contact an Admin.


----------



## cpacan

Falene, I think you bring some news to the table, in this thread anyway.

I think it is wise to listen to the WS when they after-rationalize their actions, but just saying "I understand, you were neglected, so you were absolutely justified in your cheating" - how does that prevent it from happening again?


----------



## Falene

Regret214 said:


> I most definitely felt taken advantage of, and didn't know how to get out. But, the knowledge I have gained about myself, Dig, and my marriage would prevent me from ever being in that situation again. In my case, with knowledge comes strength.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Regret,

I am going to be very honest. I am not sure, if I think I understand it right, I could accept that from my husband. Could you please clarify?

I read it that you (Regret) felt taken advantage of and did not know how to end the marriage and chose the affair as an alternative remedy?

But now, after the affair and the knowledge you have now, you will never find yourself in what situation again? The situation where you cheat on your husband for five years, feel taken advantage of again or have an affair because you didn't know how to get out of the marriage?


----------



## mr.smith

I feel ya.


We all have a choice to make, Dig. I made mine(D).....you made yours(R). I respect _your_ decision, also. Furthermore, I'm not here to play inquisitor to your to your wife, or try to derail your effort at reconciliation by way of inuendo. 

You brought me out of "lurkdom" because your experience hit home. I was betrayed by my ex-wife in similar fashion. _I know what it's like! _

Thank you for you time and patience in answering my questions, as well as your candor in the matter. 


Much props.

Take it easy, my man.


_(cool avvy, btw- a picture worth a thousand words.)_


----------



## Falene

cpacan said:


> Falene, I think you bring some news to the table, in this thread anyway.
> 
> I think it is wise to listen to the WS when they after-rationalize their actions, but just saying "I understand, you were neglected, so you were absolutely justified in your cheating" - how does that prevent it from happening again?


You misunderstand. I do not think that anything justifies infidelity in a marriage. Every spouse is neglected on some level, at some time. I felt it was a total joke when my husband told me he felt neglected due to the fact I withdrew due to his behavior. When I came to the conclusion I wanted a good marriage with my husband, I had to work as well to make the marriage better and I needed to look at his "reasons".

Prevent it from happening again? If I could prevent it from happening I would have prevented it in the first place. He could still cheat on me again if he chose to. The thought that I could have prevented it would cause me to digress horribly. That is the makings of too many sleepless nights. That takes the responsibility for his actions and makes them mine.

I am not trying to prevent anything. I am a good woman. He was a fool and seems to know it. 

What I am going to do is continue to work on forgiving him. I am going to make sure I convey how important he is to me and how much I love and value him.

That jerk is my best friend, the father of my children, and, all infidelity aside, a damn good man himself. I don't know if I will ever get over it and be able to stay married to him. I am sure going to try though. It is so worth saving if we could work through it.


----------



## 2ndchanc81370

Every marriage is susceptible to a lot of outside forces. To fight for your marriage and in the process reach out and help others who are going through the same is commendable. Both of you are to be lauded. Dig, for not giving up on Regret and still, protective over her; Regret for being honest and WILLING to accept your mistakes -- I wish you both the best of luck. Believe me, with this incident, your relationship is stronger.


----------



## Regret214

warlock07 said:


> I disagree and call BS on this. Why is the woman always made the victim? Because it suits the stereotype? If I remember correctly, it was you that invited him to your home right? It was a symbiotic relationship where you fed off each other and one isn't much better than the other.


*I do not for one second feel the victim. Yes, I invited the OM to my house and knew very well what that meant. And, I take full responsibility for agreeing to see him again on every occasion thereafter.*



Badblood said:


> Regret, this is evasion, pure and simple, and I had hoped for Dig's sake , that you were past such thoughts. You married Dig, you cheated, the OM did nothing that you didn't allow, and you COULD have said no. Don't jeopardize your R by trying to evade responsibility, please, for Dig and for your own maturity.


*My intent on this post was not to evade any responsibility. I was asked a question and provided a very direct answer. Perhaps my answer was too concise and didn't address the whole of the A.*



Badblood said:


> Dig, this is Regret evading responsibility. She didn't TRY to end it, because it continued. If she had really tried HARD, it would have been over and not gone on for 5 years. Read my other post. Sweet-talk ONLY works when it falls on receptive ears. Regret , herself has said that if she had not been caught, the affair would likely have continued. It doesn't matter, in the least , who called whom, what matters is she acted and went to him.


*I did try to end it. I did not try hard enough. I was weak, I was broken, and the OM played me like a fiddle. He knew exactly what to say and pressed me until I said yes. And I said yes! I am the only one responsible for that and for allowing the A to continue.*



Badblood said:


> This post is an attempt at evading responsibility., and also a lie. During your family crisis, she quit, so she knew exactly how to get out of the affair. Your wife entered into the affair willingly, even eagerly. The sooner both of you admit it, the better off your R will be.


Again, I am responsible for my choices! I chose to see the OM again. This is not a new revelation for me. When I said that I didn't know how to get out of it....it wasn't meant to put all the blame on the OM for the A. I didn't know what to do about my marriage. I was trapped by my own lies and views of myself and Dig that I truly felt helpless. I never told Dig how much I hated him flying and being away from home. I never told Dig that I resented him because he was without the daily responsibilities of home ownership and children. I led him, and everyone else in our lives believe that I was strong and supportive of this lifestyle. I had too much pride to actually admit to anyone, let alone myself, that it just sucked. That I just couldn't do it. This anger and resentment festered and turned into wall that he didn't understand, and I hid behind. I placed so much blame on him for what was wrong, never realizing (until AFTER Dday) that my failure to honestly communicate is what was wrong.

If any evasion of responsibility occurred it was then, not now.

I didn't want to come back to this thread feeling like I was trying to defend my actions. I certainly have no defense for the pain and betrayal. I needed you to hear from me why Dig is so bothered by your comments. He sees the whole story. From the day we met to today. You see answers to questions and, at times, failed attempts at expressing ourselves. Black and white on a blue screen will never allow you the opportunity to see the remorse and the pain.

I am blessed by Dig's love for me. I have taken that for granted and I can never apologize enough for that.


----------



## Wazza

Regret214 said:


> *I didn't know what to do about my marriage. I was trapped by my own lies and views of myself and Dig that I truly felt helpless. I never told Dig how much I hated him flying and being away from home. I never told Dig that I resented him because he was without the daily responsibilities of home ownership and children. I led him, and everyone else in our lives believe that I was strong and supportive of this lifestyle. *


*

Same mistake my wife made. 

Face your mistakes, but don't be too hard on yourself, we are all human.*


----------



## SomedayDig

Falene said:


> I read Dig's post first. I then back tracked to Regret's.
> 
> You, me, him, her cannot make a post here and restrict some sentiments if they do not break the rules of behavior that have already been set by the Admins.
> 
> *Point taken.*
> 
> In the case where R is being attempted, the betrayed spouse must try to take the position they did have some responsibility in their spouse's infidelity. Yep, you read that right.
> 
> *The only...and ONLY responsibility that I can take during Regret's affair is very simple: I did not communicate with her well enough. I didn't always tell her how I felt, but I did - and I've shown Regret an email I wrote July 2010, where I reached out telling her I wanted to fix what was wrong with us. We talked for a day. A f'ng DAY. That was all she gave me before she put her wall up again. She was there when my mother died. She held me and did honestly take care of me. Then again, she LOVED my mother more than anything and to me THAT is the only reason she stopped seeing the xOM. So, the only responsibility I will take is my own lack of communication. But...Regret made that pretty f'ng tough, too.*
> 
> 
> Dig, you need to understand that opinions contrary to yours have equal value to some. You chose this place to work it out and I really feel doing so benefits many. Try to think of them and try and gain something from opposing viewpoints. If you feel someone has stepped over the line and broken the rules contact an Admin.


I fully appreciate your commentary, Falene. I honestly do. Again, though I would ask for you and everyone else to read through many of my responses where people have made opinions contrary to mine and I still listened. I still pondered what they said. Okay...maybe I did that more on the LoveShack site since that is where I began - but I'm telling ya, I really do listen to what everyone says. I simply have a line that I will not allow to be crossed. I asked simply for respect of myself AND Regret. If anyone wants to split hairs on what Badblood said with his "...and this post is a lie", then so be it. I feel justified that he called my wife a liar and I feel justified that I told him he wasn't welcome in this thread any longer. Yes, I might have been harsh lumping *carpenoctem* in with him and commented in haste. For that, I am sorry.


----------



## SomedayDig

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> badbane said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dig during the time you now know of the Affair did you notice a difference? Do you think that you were blissfully ignorant? *(ie you knew something was up but chose to ignore it?) Are you blaming yourself for this in anyway?*/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> *Badbane: *
> let me quote Dig's own words:
> 
> *... ...“how her affair caused me to literally question my own sanity and try to look for ways to fix myself all these years - when she was the one who was broken”.*
> 
> 
> 
> This. See...this is the kind of crap I'm talking about. Someone asked me a question. ME. Remember, me? Dig? The guy who was cheated on for 5 years? I was asked a question whether I'm blaming myself in any way for her affair.
> 
> I answered, no. It was her deal. Her crap and her lies.
> 
> However, *carpenoctem* decides its okay to answer the question FOR me by using a quote taken totally out of context. The comment that he quoted was from how I felt _during_ the affair. Now, how I felt during the affair and after Dday are two totally different f'ng times.
> 
> When I confronted Regret about her blaming me for crap during that time I blasted the living crap out of her. I didn't hold back and I can tell you she KNEW I was pissed. I had been painted for years as the bad guy by her stupid f'ng ego/defense mechanism.
> 
> Now, I totally see that Regret choosing her affair had not a damn thing to do with me. It was her selfish crap. Not my fault at all.
> 
> But if anyone wishes to quote me to answer someone else's question...make sure you at least get the context right. Or maybe just let ME answer the question.
Click to expand...


----------



## iJordan

Falene said:


> In the case where R is being attempted, the betrayed spouse must try to take the position they did have some responsibility in their spouse's infidelity. *Yep, you read that right.*


Yes, and I had hoped that I misread you because it is absolute nonsense. 

In the case where R is being attempted, the betrayed spouse must try to realise that despite b u l l s h i t ex post facto rationalizations and justifications, they are not culpable in their spouse's affair. This is bad apologetics and cheater sympathising.



Falene said:


> Now hold on, hear me out. I feel strongly about this and am ready to throw down about it so read what I say carefully. Under the idea (which I strongly believe) that the cheating spouse felt he/she had reasons to cheat, *the betrayed spouse needs to hear those reasons and take them to heart.*


I would have agreed had you said: _'the betrayed spouse needs to hear those reasons and take them apart.'_ Sure, you can listen to why they felt they had to cheat and perhaps aim to better yourself in the future. But, accepting a level of responsibility is sending a very clear message to your cheating spouse: _your affair can be excused and I had a part in driving you to it. _

This is nonsense.


----------



## Falene

SomedayDig said:


> I fully appreciate your commentary, Falene. I honestly do. Again, though I would ask for you and everyone else to read through many of my responses where people have made opinions contrary to mine and I still listened. I still pondered what they said. Okay...maybe I did that more on the LoveShack site since that is where I began - but I'm telling ya, I really do listen to what everyone says. I simply have a line that I will not allow to be crossed. I asked simply for respect of myself AND Regret. If anyone wants to split hairs on what Badblood said with his "...and this post is a lie", then so be it. I feel justified that he called my wife a liar and I feel justified that I told him he wasn't welcome in this thread any longer. Yes, I might have been harsh lumping *carpenoctem* in with him and commented in haste. For that, I am sorry.


I, thanks to my husband, have had a day that allowed me to read quite a bit here. I may have missed one or two but I have read all your posts. I have no doubt you have listened to everyone's opinion. What I am telling you Dig is not to take contrary opinions to heart or personally. Maybe some of those going after Regret didn't have the chance to say it to their spouses. You know, like me, how painful it all is. How it ties you up in knots. So maybe looking at it from that perspective may help.

I see what you are saying about being taken out of context. How about you state that? "You are taking me out of context so I can't respond to your comment as it has no basis in my reality. Sorry." 

Back on the important topic....

As the BS I found that my responsibilities were in more than one area. I have no problem communicating, if communicating means stating how you feel, my problem was in listening. I am assertive in my communication and have no problem pushing a point home. My husband is different. He may just say something once or twice. My husband has a hard time sharing his feelings and I didn't pay attention enough or give his part enough weight. This is especially true whenever we disagreed. He was wrong. I was right. Period. In another thread respect was brought up. In this area I was often disrespectful of him.

My other area of responsibilities generate out of the fact that when my feelings are hurt I can't seem to feel anything but angry. Sadness = mad. Disappointment = mad. And so on. I withdrew from him on purpose! "I will show him!" lol In my opinion, I was a raving b*tch way too often when what I should have really done was cry or something more normal like that. If the only thing I can get out of this nightmare is that I can respond more appropriately to my negative emotions it may have been worth it (well, not really but you know what I mean).

Can't tell you enough how much I appreciate the dialogue you and Regret are creating here. I see so much of myself in you and so much of my husband in Regret. I think there are commonalities among those that were cheated on and those that did the cheating. It lets me know that my craziness isn't personal and that I am not alone.

My best of luck to you both. I am rooting for your marriage to work out.


----------



## Falene

iJordan said:


> Yes, and I had hoped that I misread you because it is absolute nonsense.
> 
> In the case where R is being attempted, the betrayed spouse must try to realise that despite b u l l s h i t ex post facto rationalizations and justifications, they are not culpable in their spouse's affair. This is bad apologetics and cheater sympathising.


I said to read what I was saying carefully. 

Nothing I ever did justifies what my husband did. Nothing.

Under the assumption that the wayward spouse is not a sick or cruel person, they had their reasons. I think it is important for the betrayed spouse to hear those reasons and see if there is any truth to them if they want to reconcile. Why? So the relationship can be repaired to the best of the couple's ability. My husband felt neglected. He was. Should I have ignored that? How can I have a good marriage if I do not put weight into that?





iJordan said:


> I would have agreed had you said: _'the betrayed spouse needs to hear those reasons and take them apart.'_ Sure, you can listen to why they felt they had to cheat and perhaps aim to better yourself in the future. But, accepting a level of responsibility is sending a very clear message to your cheating spouse: _your affair can be excused and I had a part in driving you to it. _
> 
> This is nonsense.


Of course I pulled them apart. It wasn't hard. They had no foundation as to why he cheated on me. If neglect causes infidelity I would have slept with countless men.

I have no responsibility in his affair. I do, however, have a huge responsibility in trying to make my marriage work since I have chosen to try and reconcile.

Get the difference?


----------



## iJordan

Falene said:


> I said to read what I was saying carefully.
> 
> Nothing I ever did justifies what my husband did. Nothing.


I'm glad you believe that, because asserting that the betrayed spouse must, _'try to take the position they did have some responsibility in their spouse's infidelity'_ is contradictory and not indicative of what you are about to explain...



Falene said:


> Under the assumption that the wayward spouse is not a sick or cruel person, they had their reasons. I think it is important for the betrayed spouse to hear those reasons and see if there is any truth to them if they want to reconcile. Why? So the relationship can be repaired to the best of the couple's ability. My husband felt neglected. He was. Should I have ignored that? How can I have a good marriage if I do not put weight into that?


Which is more or less the exact same as my previous comment:



iJordan said:


> Sure, you can listen to why they felt they had to cheat and perhaps aim to better yourself in the future.





Falene said:


> Of course I pulled them apart. It wasn't hard. They had no foundation as to why he cheated on me. If neglect causes infidelity I would have slept with countless men.
> 
> I have no responsibility in his affair. I do, however, have a huge responsibility in trying to make my marriage work since I have chosen to try and reconcile.
> 
> *Get the difference?*


Of course. That's not what you said, though. Both partners have a responsibility in making the marriage work, post-affair (if they reconcile). But, that is not the same as the betrayed spouse taking the position that, _'they did have some responsibility in their spouse's infidelity.'_


----------



## warlock07

I haven't read the entire thread yet Dig, but are you re-bonding as a couple by fighting(?) with people who question the reconciliation  ? More seriously, something similar happened in your real life too, right ? You distanced friends who questioned/did not believe Regret. Or am I wrong?


----------



## SomedayDig

Ouch.

Yeah, I distanced them. But not when they questioned Regret. I distanced them when I was blamed for the divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

The first part was meant to funny Dig. Sorry if it hurt you. And I think what you are doing actually helps. Your read Almostrecovered's thread right?


----------



## SomedayDig

I got the first part. The losing friends part is what stung. I'll read his thread today. Very difficult night and morning. I'm going to the gym to work it out. Be back later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Falene

iJordan said:


> I'm glad you believe that, because asserting that the betrayed spouse must, _'try to take the position they did have some responsibility in their spouse's infidelity'_ is contradictory and not indicative of what you are about to explain...
> 
> Of course. That's not what you said, though. Both partners have a responsibility in making the marriage work, post-affair (if they reconcile). But, that is not the same as the betrayed spouse taking the position that, _'they did have some responsibility in their spouse's infidelity.'_


Yes, I reread my way too long post and should have chosen my words more carefully. I see how it could have been misconstrued. I knew what I meant though!


----------



## badbane

Badblood said:


> This is total and complete horsesh*t. Badbane , this was a thoughtless post and not helpful in any way. Blaming the AP for the affair is the epitome of deflection and evasion. Most posters have tried really hard to show Regret that she was responsible for her actions, and the SHE, not the OM, was to blame for the affair and the harm it caused to her marriage. It doesn't matter how much he sweet-talked her, sweet-talk only works when it falls on receptive ears. If Dig or Regret begin to believe that the "bad OM) was to blame, their R will be set back months maybe years. Badbane, do you not understand responsibility?


Pointing out the likely reason she never approached dig in the first place. While yes there is not reason she should have cheated picking apart every little detail that made her feel guilted into cheating is important in my book. I am not condoning any action she had but asking if the entrapment is there still. If the trust issues that stem from cheating "ie being stuck between a rock and a hard place is there still" in such case that OM attempts to communicate or she realizes that another man is getting attached that she knows that there is an out. That she doesn't feel trapped by her previous A in such a way that she can come clean about anything in the future without the relationship backsliding. These questions are about the current situation not the past.
REgret should have stopped all communication with the OM as soon as she realized she was getting an emotional high from the OM. The IMO one of the reasons (weak and flimsy from the outside, but very scary from the inside of an A) is the feeling of entrapment. The feeling that since you started down this road that the guilt and fear of discovery cause the exact opposite reaction that we (on the outside ) expect. To use the guilt and fear should make you want to come clean. But like an addict the guilt and fear of withdrawal and the loss of reputation keep them locked into the A. 
I think you simply took my questions out of the context of what i meant by them.
Also i was asking regret if at this point , not during the A, but now realize that the AP was doing nothing but using her. I was not blaming the A on the OM. Badblood you are seeing red and not paying close attention to context.


----------



## SomedayDig

badbane said:


> Also i was asking regret if at this point , not during the A, but now realize that *the AP was doing nothing but using her*. I was not blaming the A on the OM. Badblood you are seeing red and not paying close attention to context.


This is the ONLY point I will back Regret on. I've seen it in black and white. Period. I will not allow her to use it as an excuse, however...but I can easily see the pattern this guy used. No call for a month and then call, call, call, call, call, call. I am NOT excusing her cuz she was dumb enough to answer. And since that is the case, HE isn't the only one at fault. Never f'ng was.


----------



## badbane

SomedayDig said:


> This is the ONLY point I will back Regret on. I've seen it in black and white. Period. I will not allow her to use it as an excuse, however...but I can easily see the pattern this guy used. No call for a month and then call, call, call, call, call, call. I am NOT excusing her cuz she was dumb enough to answer. And since that is the case, HE isn't the only one at fault. Never f'ng was.


Regret this next question is for you? What do you feel is was the lowest moment you had? Was it while you were having the A, DDay, or post DDay? 

Also what do you feel was the worst thing you did during the A? (is there one thing that stands out for you?)
Dig what do you feel was the worst thing Regret did while in the A? 
(again be as specific as you can.)

I am curious to know if your answers match up. For me (my situation doesn't compare at all to yours) but it was the time it took for my wife to realize that she was doing something highly inappropriate.


----------



## SomedayDig

Well, badbane...that depends on what we're talking about when we say "worst" thing, cuz for me that'd be twofold.

First, even though she never talked bad about me to the xOM (she simply said she wasn't happy), she bad mouthed me to family and friends - basically, telling them ALL of my faults and foibles. Truth is, my fault was not communicating. All the rest was her ego taking over and justifying her affair. I just tossed a couple self help books to her that had been given to me over the years by her and her parents - ya know...books on how to be a better man/husband and that kind of crap. I told her she could read em. 

Second, would be in the sexual realm. To me, one of the most intimate things a couple does is oral sex.

Enough said.

Silly to some. Poignant to me.


----------



## Exsquid

I have been reading all of your threads for the past week or so and have finally decided to make my first post. I just wanted to say thank you to you and your wife for posting like this. I am 48 days from DD (I am the BS) Our stories are so similar in so many ways that is actually a bit scarry. This has really helped me to gain some insight into what I am going through myself. I actually asked my WS to read through your threads as well, and I think it has done us some good. I haven't decided yet if I am going to share my story. But for now I wish you the best in your R and I hope to continue to learn from your situation and actions.

QUOTE:
First, even though she never talked bad about me to the xOM (she simply said she wasn't happy), she bad mouthed me to family and friends - basically, telling them ALL of my faults and foibles. Truth is, my fault was not communicating. All the rest was her ego taking over and justifying her affair. I just tossed a couple self help books to her that had been given to me over the years by her and her parents - ya know...books on how to be a better man/husband and that kind of crap. I told her she could read em. 

Second, would be in the sexual realm. To me, one of the most intimate things a couple does is oral sex.

Enough said.

Silly to some. Poignant to me. 

-->Not silly at all in my opinion. These are the exact things I personally consider some of the "toughest" to get over. 
Good luck and keep the posts coming  Thanks!


----------



## SomedayDig

Exsquid said:


> I have been reading all of your threads for the past week or so and have finally decided to make my first post. I just wanted to say thank you to you and your wife for posting like this. I am 48 days from DD (I am the BS) Our stories are so similar in so many ways that is actually a bit scarry. *This has really helped me to gain some insight into what I am going through myself. I actually asked my WS to read through your threads as well, and I think it has done us some good. * I haven't decided yet if I am going to share my story. But for now I wish you the best in your R and I hope to continue to learn from your situation and actions.


The part that I bolded is _exactly_ why when I'm hurting and in so much pain, I can look at these threads we started and think it does help.

Thank, man. And share your story when you're ready. It will be difficult. You might read stuff that pisses you off and tears you apart all at once.

But. It helps.


----------



## In_The_Wind

Howdy Dig hope yr doing great today


----------



## SomedayDig

A semi-chill day watching the Olympics.

Got my RedBull and chew, so I'm good to go!


----------



## EI

Are you guys doing okay, today?


----------



## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> Are you guys doing okay, today?


Half and half. The roller coaster isn't fun. This is the tough part. Where I get hurt and angry and I'm sure it's frustrating to Regret. God, this just f'ng sucks.


----------



## EI

I don't know if this will help or not, but I just want to tell you that it is possible to do something really, really, really horrible, for a very, very, very, long time and to justify and compartmentalize, and THEN, when you see the ramifications of what you've done (for those of us who didn't confess.... we got caught) to truly wake-up and be as devastated as their BS is. It can take some time before this awakening sets in. We want to blame someone, but we can only look in the mirror and see ourselves and that, in itself, is a terrible sentence. I can only imagine how painful it is to be betrayed in this way, but I promise it is, also, terrible to be the one who has betrayed their spouse and their family. We have to live with ourselves, there is no escape.... yet we want to move forward, be happy, help our spouses heal from the betrayal (our betrayal,) but we don't feel worthy, we don't feel entitled (yeah, how about that?) After feeling entitled for so long to whatever it is that we tell ourselves that we must have to be happy, now we don't even feel worthy enough or entitled enough to share our lives with the one who we hurt. Yet, many times, we, the betrayers, are the very ones, the only ones, who the betrayed need to help them heal. It can be a vicious cycle.

There comes a point, and this is only if both parties truly want to reconcile and for all of the right reasons, that you, both, have to lay down your weapons, the ones that you hurl at each other and at yourselves; shame, blame, guilt, bitterness, fear, pride, ego, etc.... and lay yourself out, vulnerable and willing to open your heart once again, and take a *RISK*. If it doesn't work out you haven't lost anything that wasn't already gone. If it does, then the rewards can be immeasurable.

I felt so unloved, unwanted and undesired for such a long time. And, it was true. My H knows that he was absent from our marriage for such a long time. I was already gone..... Anything that H could have done (or so I thought) would have been too little, too late. I went to MC to learn how to help my H deal with my betrayal and our impending divorce. But, when I thought it was too late, didn't even want the marriage anymore, H decided to love me, hold me and care for me when I was the least loveable and least deserving and for that reason I will love him, hold him and care for him with every ounce of my being for the rest of my life. And, I can't tell you how happy that makes me.

I think that you and Regret are in the midst of the storm that comes right before the rainbow!


----------



## SomedayDig

I hear where you're coming from EI...but while I might have had communication issue with Regret, in no way was I gone. I was never gone. Even when I was in France for 12 days, I called her every chance I got and video chatted with her whenever possible. I hated being there because the captain I flew with brought his girlfriend and said I couldn't bring Regret cuz I hadn't been on that jet long enough! I was pissed! Here he was all lovey dovey at breakfast, lunch and dinner with his girlfriend...who, by the way, he cheated with on his WIFE and Regret was home. 3700 miles away from me.

What was she doing? Well, she was having the xOM over at my house and banging him in my basement.

I don't need a weapon to feel mad or upset about that. She committed hari kari herself during that time and dozens of others...

Yes. We're in a storm right now, but that f'ng rainbow at the end better not have any damn unicorns. I'm not playing a fantasy game. I'm angry.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I hear where you're coming from EI...but while I might have had communication issue with Regret, in no way was I gone. I was never gone.
> 
> What was she doing? Well, she was having the xOM over at my house and banging him in my basement.
> 
> I don't need a weapon to feel mad or upset about that. She committed hari kari herself during that time and dozens of others...
> 
> Yes. We're in a storm right now, but that f'ng rainbow at the end better not have any damn unicorns. I'm not playing a fantasy game. I'm angry.



I wasn't suggesting that you and Regret had communication problems or that you were "gone," in any way, from the marriage. I always tend to "over share" and reiterate what some of the issues were, for H & me, in all of my posts. I guess what I am saying is that we had serious issues, a completely broken marriage and I had *no* belief that it was salvageable. But, here we are, less than two months later, and I truly believe that we are on the road to R. I keep thinking that if we can do it, then anyone can, if they both really want to.

I feel for you and Regret because I *know* that you love one another and want to find your way back together. I am a hopeless romantic. I want for everyone to be happy. I know you're in pain. In a bizarre twist of retribution it seems as though I'm feeling a sense of "debt" to every single BS on this message board. You and H seem to be in a similar place right now. Although, I feel that H and I have turned a corner, for the better, and I am optimistic that you and Regret are getting there, too. I think it was the old cynic, _*Bandit,*_ (who, by the way, was meaner than He!! to me from day one) who said that he 'wanted us to make it, he needed us to make it.' I guess I feel the same way about the two of you.


----------



## SomedayDig

Thank you, EI.

Truly.


----------



## iJordan

SomedayDig said:


> Second, would be in the sexual realm. To me, one of the most intimate things a couple does is oral sex.
> 
> Enough said.
> 
> Silly to some. Poignant to me.


I get this 100%.


----------



## B1

Empty Inside said:


> I wasn't suggesting that you and Regret had communication problems or that you were "gone," in any way, from the marriage. I always tend to "over share" and reiterate what some of the issues were, for H & me, in all of my posts. I guess what I am saying is that we had serious issues, a completely broken marriage and I had *no* belief that it was salvageable. But, here we are, less than two months later, and I truly believe that we are on the road to R. I keep thinking that if we can do it, then anyone can, if they both really want to.
> 
> I feel for you and Regret because I *know* that you love one another and want to find your way back together. I am a hopeless romantic. I want for everyone to be happy. I know you're in pain. In a bizarre twist of retribution it seems as though I'm feeling a sense of "debt" to every single BS on this message board. You and H seem to be in a similar place right now. Although, I feel that H and I have turned a corner, for the better, and I am optimistic that you and Regret are getting there, too. I think it was the old cynic, _*Bandit,*_ (who, by the way, was meaner than He!! to me from day one) who said that he 'wanted us to make it, he needed us to make it.' I guess I feel the same way about the two of you.


Digs..EI is so right, our marriage before the A was, well, not a marriage, it was a true train wreck. No commuincations, no sex, just co-habitating in the same house. You know some of the things I am dealing with, the images and movies..what I PM'd you about...and If I can do it, I feel anyone can, if they want it bad enough and there spouses do too. If both parties are giving all they can towards a R then their is half the battle.

We have to face it...Our spouses made a horrible devestating choice, but lets not let this define who they are...lets just accept the fact they made a bad choice in life..sure this oversimplifies things a bit, but in the long run we both want happiness and we both love and want our wives.
Our wives are sorry, truly sorry and they have been open and honest about the A. Yes, it hurts, God I know that to well. I beleive only time and love will heal that pain.

Now...We need to overcome this anger and hurt enough to rebuild our marriages and lives. We have chosen to do that, we chose a R and our wives chose it also, so let's just do it.

This is as much for me as it is you btw 

Go R Go....:smthumbup:
(If there was a smiley with pom-poms it would be here!)


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> Digs..EI is so right, our marriage before the A was, well, not a marriage, it was a true train wreck. *No communications, no sex,* just co-habitating in the same house.



My response to this, actually, belongs on our thread, but I don't know how to do that. I call a time-out because I have to respond to this before someone misinterprets your comment. Before the A there was plenty of communication, tons of it, years of it, but it was all one-sided. One of us was doing all of the talking and the other one of us was not doing any of the listening. One of us was trying very hard to get her husband (uh-oh, did I just give away who was talking and who wasn't listening? LOL ) to understand her pain, loneliness, isolation, feelings of rejection, and inability to continue in that hopeless state. Meanwhile, her husband wasn't mentally or physically able to respond to her needs, or even his own, really.  There were things regarding your health that neither you or I knew or understood, at that time, but we do now. Sadly, after years of unhappiness, and many failed attempts to get you to respond to my pleas to work on our marriage, I made a terrible choice, one that hurt you unbearably, and although you don't, truly, fully understand or believe this, it hurt me, too. More than you will ever know. But, I love you, so much, and I'm sooooooo happy and grateful that you are in this marriage with me, now, especially, now, because I know that no matter how much I hurt or for how long, that you are hurting in a whole different way. I'm here, with you, you loving me was all I ever really wanted or needed. All the OM ever gave me was "crumbs and sips" you have given me the whole smorgasbord, Baby, and I am going to feast on that for the rest of my life! 

Oh, excuse me, we're in the wrong room, this room belongs to Dig and Regret, meet me down the hall "Wife's affair, how to move forward?" C'mon, you crazy, handsome, sexy, strong, uninhibited, did I say Sexy Beast of a man. I'll show you how to move forward! LOL

Sorry about the thread jack, Dig and Regret..... y'all should come and visit our thread sometime.... it was loads of fun in the beginning..... NOT!


----------



## SomedayDig

betrayed1 said:


> Digs..EI is so right, our marriage before the A was, well, not a marriage, it was a true train wreck. No commuincations, no sex, just co-habitating in the same house. You know some of the things I am dealing with, the images and movies..what I PM'd you about...and If I can do it, I feel anyone can, if they want it bad enough and there spouses do too. If both parties are giving all they can towards a R then their is half the battle.
> 
> *Regret and my marriage before Dday seemed fair. Yes, we had our communication problems and sex happened a couple times a month at best. I thought it was me. Hell, I was pretty much told it was me. I searched and searched for ways to "change"...even with her and her parents buying me books on how to be "better". Yes, we have decided on reconciliation and I can only speak for myself, but I'm giving it my all. It seems Regret is, too. So, yes...that is half the battle. The other half of that battle though, is pretty f'ng hard.*
> 
> We have to face it...Our spouses made a horrible devestating choice, but lets not let this define who they are...lets just accept the fact they made a bad choice in life..sure this oversimplifies things a bit, but in the long run we both want happiness and we both love and want our wives.
> Our wives are sorry, truly sorry and they have been open and honest about the A. Yes, it hurts, God I know that to well. I beleive only time and love will heal that pain.
> 
> *I wish I could just accept it B1. It might make things a bit easier. But I don't. I want happiness in our marriage and I'm sure Regret does, too. That, however, cannot erase 5 years of betrayal and lies. Like the time I had a feeling...we all know what that's like - but I had zero proof of anything...I asked her if there was anyone else. She took my face in her hands and spoke softly and whatnot to me. "No, Dig. There is no one else. There never could be." I can't just accept that she made a ton of bad choices. Not yet.
> 
> She's sorry. I know that. I've seen the remorse and regret in her eyes. However, I still struggle. I think that's okay, too.*
> 
> Now...We need to overcome this anger and hurt enough to rebuild our marriages and lives. We have chosen to do that, we chose a R and our wives chose it also, so let's just do it.
> 
> *Overcoming my anger and hurt is my daily life. I really do work hard at "just do it" stuff. Some days, it's just hard.*
> 
> This is as much for me as it is you btw
> 
> Go R Go....:smthumbup:
> (If there was a smiley with pom-poms it would be here!)


I am enthusiastic about where Regret and I are now compared to pre-Dday times. We talk. We're honest and open about everything and anything. We laugh and we cry together. We sit next to each other on ONE couch instead of separate ones like we did prior to Dday. I enjoy her. I enjoy me. I feel more like this is a marriage than it has been the past 7 years (counting the 2 years before the affair began).

I'm okay.

I'm just hurting still.


----------



## SomedayDig

EI...I have actually read a lot of B1's thread. I honestly just haven't had time to read yours, yet. I will.


----------



## SomedayDig

It dawned on me today. A year ago I almost died in my jet taking off out of a very short runway in the Hamptons. My engine failed and I struggled to keep the bit_h in the air. I had a co-pilot and 6 passengers on board. I owed them my all in those precarious moments of take off.

I should have died. That plane should not have flown at that weight at that temperature with that short of a runway.

I think I've had another divine intervention.

Life. Is too short.

I love you, Regret.

I think I'm ready.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> It dawned on me today. A year ago I almost died in my jet taking off out of a very short runway in the Hamptons. My engine failed and I struggled to keep the bit_h in the air. I had a co-pilot and 6 passengers on board. I owed them my all in those precarious moments of take off.
> 
> I should have died. That plane should not have flown at that weight at that temperature with that short of a runway.
> 
> I think I've had another divine intervention.
> 
> Life. Is too short.
> 
> I love you, Regret.
> 
> I think I'm ready.



Oh God, that just gave me cold chills! Now I'm crying for two people that I've never met, but who I hope with all of my heart find a lifetime of love and happiness together!


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> It dawned on me today. A year ago I almost died in my jet taking off out of a very short runway in the Hamptons. My engine failed and I struggled to keep the bit_h in the air. I had a co-pilot and 6 passengers on board. I owed them my all in those precarious moments of take off.
> 
> I should have died. That plane should not have flown at that weight at that temperature with that short of a runway.
> 
> I think I've had another divine intervention.
> 
> Life. Is too short.
> 
> I love you, Regret.
> 
> I think I'm ready.


Whoa...Dig, that brought tears to me eyes and I have not had tears since...well..yesterday 

I truly hope this is good solid news for you two, it sounds like it sure is!


----------



## Regret214

Dig,

The love you have shown me these past few months has touched me so deeply. Your courage to stay and reconcile amazes me. 

I know that there will be times that you will be struck by sadness and pain, and I will be here. I promise to give you all of me...you deserve nothing less. We have been broken for so many years, and I can never apologize enough for the choices I made, but I see a glorious future ahead for us, together. I can't give back to you the time I took away, but will give you the quality of love and friendship that you deserve until the end of time.

I love you, Dig, with all that I am. You are an amazing man who is far from the simple man that you claim to be. I love you today ~ tomorrow ~ always!


----------



## dogman

Regret214 said:


> Dig,
> 
> The love you have shown me these past few months has touch me so deeply. Your courage to stay and reconcile amazes me.
> 
> I know that there will be times that you will be struck by sadness and pain, and I will be here. I promise to give you all of me...you deserve nothing less. We have been broken for so many years, and I can never apologize enough for the choices I made, but I see a glorious future ahead for us, together. I can't give back to you the time I took away, but will give you the quality of love and friendship that you deserve until the end of time.
> 
> I love you, Dig, with all that I am. You are an amazing man who is far from the simple man that you claim to be. I love you today ~ tomorrow ~ always!


 Wow! Dig... I totally get your dilemma. I don't even know Regret and half of me thinks she's great and the other half wants to see you punish her. You must be so torn at times. I have a great deal of respect for you both. 
I understand Regret because I have things to make up to my wife and will forever love her for being my anchor that saved my life. I adore her. I did not cheat but was self destructive and therefore hurt her for some time. Thanks for the honesty in your thread.


----------



## Regret214

dogman said:


> Wow! Dig... I totally get your dilemma. I don't even know Regret and half of me thinks she's great and the other half wants to see you punish her. You must be so torn at times. I have a great deal of respect for you both.
> I understand Regret because I have things to make up to my wife and will forever love her for being my anchor that saved my life. I adore her. I did not cheat but was self destructive and therefore hurt her for some time. Thanks for the honesty in your thread.


I cannot speak for Dig, but can tell you that I can see that he has felt torn. For me, my own regrets and self-directed anger is a punishment that I will endure for my entire life. Knowing what I did, and what I didn't do, and how I failed my H, my family, and myself is something that I can never forget and can never forgive. I can only use my failures to learn how to be the person I should have been all along.

I am truly blessed to have the love of someone like Dig, who can see beyond the false person I was and recognize the person I am capable of being. The honest, loving, and devoted wife that he deserves.


----------



## dogman

Regret214 said:


> I cannot speak for Dig, but can tell you that I can see that he has felt torn. For me, my own regrets and self-directed anger is a punishment that I will endure for my entire life. Knowing what I did, and what I didn't do, and how I failed my H, my family, and myself is something that I can never forget and can never forgive. I can only use my failures to learn how to be the person I should have been all along.
> 
> I am truly blessed to have the love of someone like Dig, who can see beyond the false person I was and recognize the person I am capable of being. The honest, loving, and devoted wife that he deserves.


I feel the same way toward my wife. We are 6 years past my breakdown of sorts and she still is torn at times, in regard to the change in me. It is still an issue. I often wonder if there's anything would have gotten me to change so I would truly appreciate her. It took almost losing her in a big way. I often tell her that almost losing her is absolutely the only thing to save me and give her the man she deserved. 
Maybe that's the only thing that could change you. Maybe there was no other path to where you are.


----------



## Regret214

dogman said:


> I feel the same way toward my wife. We are 6 years past my breakdown of sorts and she still is torn at times, in regard to the change in me. It is still an issue. I often wonder if there's anything would have gotten me to change so I would truly appreciate her. It took almost losing her in a big way. I often tell her that almost losing her is absolutely the only thing to save me and give her the man she deserved.
> Maybe that's the only thing that could change you. Maybe there was no other path to where you are.


This is unfortunately so true. I feel like I have been jolted out of a horrible nightmare, and am grateful to be awake.


----------



## Harken Banks

SomedayDig said:


> It dawned on me today. A year ago I almost died in my jet taking off out of a very short runway in the Hamptons. My engine failed and I struggled to keep the bit_h in the air. I had a co-pilot and 6 passengers on board. I owed them my all in those precarious moments of take off.
> 
> I should have died. That plane should not have flown at that weight at that temperature with that short of a runway.
> 
> I think I've had another divine intervention.
> 
> Life. Is too short.
> 
> I love you, Regret.
> 
> I think I'm ready.



Dig, yours are the most lucid and powerful posts in this place. I am going to have to do some reading to catch up, but between the post quoted above and Regret's response the two of you are an incredible inspiration. Complementary in piecing together this mess into something beautiful.


----------



## SomedayDig

I can't use the quote feature cuz I'm on my cell...EI, B1, DOGMAN and harken - I am humbled by your posts. I'm sitting at work alone for a few hours. It's okay to have some tears. I'm at a window watching an awesome thunder storm. Heavy rain that's much needed. A cleansing rain. A baptism of sorts.

Regret, when I left the house that's all it took was that look. You know the one.

Today, I am happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Regret214 said:


> Dig,
> 
> The love you have shown me these past few months has touched me so deeply. Your courage to stay and reconcile amazes me.
> 
> I know that there will be times that you will be struck by sadness and pain, and I will be here. I promise to give you all of me...you deserve nothing less. We have been broken for so many years, and I can never apologize enough for the choices I made, but I see a glorious future ahead for us, together. I can't give back to you the time I took away, but will give you the quality of love and friendship that you deserve until the end of time.
> 
> I love you, Dig, with all that I am. You are an amazing man who is far from the simple man that you claim to be. I love you today ~ tomorrow ~ always!


I'm on my cell phone, justed wanted to *like* this post
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

I wanna hit "like", too! 
Guess I've gotta wait a couple hours to like everyone's posts!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Also Regret, I stuggle with forgiving myself..How can someone forgive themselves for causing this nighmare, yes our marriage is better as in we are way more attentive to eachother and so much closer but if only I would have dealt with my resentment tword him in the right manner instead of runningto another man for my emotional need of feeling loved. UGG what was I thinking???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Juicer

So I had a few questions, probably more for Regret than Dig.

I asked my wife what the other man gave her that I didn't. I kept myself in great shape, I loved talking with her, I thought the sex life was adequate for both of us, so I thought our marriage was fine. 
But she said when her affair first started, it was because she could talk to someone else, that was a male, about things that I did, that she didn't like, and worried her. And I was wondering, why couldn't she bring these issues to my attention instead of running to someone else? Is there some psychological reason for going to someone else instead of your husband? Like you won't be judged or something?

And the other one:
The other man wanted to break it off about 2.5 months into a 5 month affair, and told my wife this. My wife asked him not to, and chased him for a little while until he continued it for another, 2.5 months. And this is one of the hardest things for me to get over. She was given a chance to walk away from this, and let nothing more come of it. But she didn't, she still wanted it, and it took her another 2.5 months to realize exactly what she was doing. 
Was she lusting so much after the other man that she was to blind to see what she was doing? Or did she think she could continue the affair on indefinitley, or did she have some happy dreams about running off with him or something? Because he was the one wanting to break it off, not her.


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## CantSitStill

I avoided conflict...would run out the door whenever he got mad at me instead of just telling him how I truly felt..instead I hurt him in the worst way, it's plain sickening, sorry I'll stop venting now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Juicer said:


> So I had a few questions, probably more for Regret than Dig.
> 
> I asked my wife what the other man gave her that I didn't. I kept myself in great shape, I loved talking with her, I thought the sex life was adequate for both of us, so I thought our marriage was fine.
> But she said when her affair first started, it was because she could talk to someone else, that was a male, about things that I did, that she didn't like, and worried her. And I was wondering, why couldn't she bring these issues to my attention instead of running to someone else? Is there some psychological reason for going to someone else instead of your husband? Like you won't be judged or something?
> 
> And the other one:
> The other man wanted to break it off about 2.5 months into a 5 month affair, and told my wife this. My wife asked him not to, and chased him for a little while until he continued it for another, 2.5 months. And this is one of the hardest things for me to get over. She was given a chance to walk away from this, and let nothing more come of it. But she didn't, she still wanted it, and it took her another 2.5 months to realize exactly what she was doing.
> Was she lusting so much after the other man that she was to blind to see what she was doing? Or did she think she could continue the affair on indefinitley, or did she have some happy dreams about running off with him or something? Because he was the one wanting to break it off, not her.


The irrational thoughts are crazy but true it's like an addiction. I would try to break it off with the OM a few times and land up texting him a couple days later. Why? don't know, was addicted to the attention
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

Juicer said:


> why couldn't she bring these issues to my attention instead of running to someone else? Is there some psychological reason for going to someone else instead of your husband? Like you won't be judged or something?
> 
> 
> 
> *I lied so much to myself about the state of our marriage, that I truly believed the lies. Dig and I call this the George Costanza Syndrome..."Just remember: It's not a lie if you believe it." I convinced myself that I really supported Dig's job that took him away. I convinced myself that I could handle it. I convinced everyone else the same. But I also convinced myself that whatever problems we had were Dig's fault. I, unfortunately, never looked inward, past my own lies, and acknowledged that I held responsibility too. I never opened myself up to Dig for him to truly see me and how I felt. Instead, I chose ignore my life that I resented and sought an escape to validate my ego. God, I wish I had done things differently!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was she lusting so much after the other man that she was to blind to see what she was doing? Or did she think she could continue the affair on indefinitley, or did she have some happy dreams about running off with him or something? Because he was the one wanting to break it off, not her.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *I cannot speak for your WW, but for me...I would periodically break things off only to respond to a text or call and fall back into the A. It became a routine, and yes, an addiction to the attention and the break from reality.*
Click to expand...


----------



## Regret214

CantSitStill said:


> Also Regret, I stuggle with forgiving myself..How can someone forgive themselves for causing this nighmare, yes our marriage is better as in we are way more attentive to eachother and so much closer but if only I would have dealt with my resentment tword him in the right manner instead of runningto another man for my emotional need of feeling loved. UGG what was I thinking???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I don't think it will be possible for me to forgive myself. The closest I can get to this is to be the person I should have been all along and learn from my destructive choices. And, NEVER NEVER take my husband, my family and myself for granted!


----------



## Regret214

CantSitStill said:


> I avoided conflict...would run out the door whenever he got mad at me instead of just telling him how I truly felt..instead I hurt him in the worst way, it's plain sickening, sorry I'll stop venting now
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Vent away! Isn't that why we are here? 

I couldn't express myself.....I didn't know how I truly felt. I was caught up in my own lies and believed them.

It f***ng sucks that hind sight is 20/20. I needed these glasses years ago!!!!!


----------



## CantSitStill

Regret214 said:


> I don't think it will be possible for me to forgive myself. The closest I can get to this is to be the person I should have been all along and learn from my destructive choices. And, NEVER NEVER take my husband, my family and myself for granted!


Amen to that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

dogman said:


> I don't even know Regret and half of me thinks she's great and the other half wants to see you punish her.





Regret214 said:


> Knowing what I did, and what I didn't do, and how I failed my H, my family, and myself is something that I can never forget and can never forgive. I can only use my failures to learn how to be the person I should have been all along.





CantSitStill said:


> Also Regret, I stuggle with forgiving myself..How can someone forgive themselves for causing this nighmare, yes our marriage is better as in we are way more attentive to eachother and so much closer but if only I would have dealt with my resentment tword him in the right manner instead of runningto another man for my emotional need of feeling loved. UGG what was I thinking???





Regret214 said:


> I don't think it will be possible for me to forgive myself. The closest I can get to this is to be the person I should have been all along and learn from my destructive choices. And, NEVER NEVER take my husband, my family and myself for granted!


Alright, we just got back from our son's birthday party. I'm kind of exhausted. You all know I'm never short on lengthy explanations for things, but my brain doesn't have the energy to go into this right now. I WILL get back to this later. But for now, I'll leave you with this. Reconciliations CAN NEVER be about the BS exacting punishment on the CS. They CAN and SHOULD include the CS making amends to the BS. Punishment and amends.... two different things. One WILL destroy a marriage and the other can help to save a marriage. 

About forgiveness.... unless you are truly able to forgive yourself, then you cannot expect your spouse to do the same. It takes time and work. Geeeez, I have spent a lot of my husband's hard earned money in therapy.... but you know what, I'm feeling pretty good and I am so happy that I get to spend the rest of my life helping B1 feel good, loved, honored, adored, cherished and desired, as well.

Regret, I think you and Dig have turned the corner!


----------



## CantSitStill

I just want to say..yes I am the WS but no I will not be treated bad or abused emotionally, verbally or physically..I have boundries also. A good marriage is about both spouses treating eachother with respect. What good is a marriage otherwise..yes trust takes time but I will never allow my husband to treat me bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Exsquid

Hey Dig, I have been following your thread here closely for a few weeks. I have a couple of questions that I would like to ask you about your feelings and the feelings that you have towards your wife now and since your DD. If you don't want to answer here or at all that's OK, I'll understand. I don't want to derail what you are doing or come between you and your wife. I am going through almost the exact same thing you are right now (DD 8 weeks ago, wife acting similar to Regret, and both of us wanting to R (I'm still cautious right now). I am sorry if these questions or statements may be a "trigger" but from what I have read from your posts you are doing this for the sake of helping not just your marriage, but any other peoples marriages as well. Mine needs help! lol And I apologize for the grammar and such, I hated English in HS  


1. I have a few questions in the sexual realm, but they are not specific to anything other than feelings.

-->Once you and Regret became intimate following DD, did you then or now have any confidence issues? Or hesitations based on your performance or abilities? 
-->Did you feel any more or less inclined to perform to a certain level in order to some how "prove to Regret" that she didn't need anyone else. Or prove to yourself that you could "handle business"?
-->Do you have an OVERWHELMING desire to make sure that she is pleased to no end, or are there times where you aren't concerned with her satisfaction?


2. My WS has claimed that one reason for her affair was lack of physical touch. EX. Kissing, holding hands, hugging, cuddling, etc. If your wife claims the same thing. Do you or have you, noticed that you are doing too much now (In your eyes, not hers)? Not because you think you are smothering her, but because you are in some way trying to, again "prove to her" that you can and will give her all the things she said you weren't providing to her before her affair?

3. I am fully aware of the term "Hysterical Bonding Phase". What is your take on your situation in reference to this term? What role has this "phase" had on your RR at the beginning and/or now? I have read alot about it and it has actually left me with more questions and concerns than answers and I am curious if you have thought about similar things. I have read that basically this is a phase that most go through in similar situations like ours, and that it usually lasts between 1 & 6 months. Another question to you would be, have you ever sat back and thought about your feelings towards your wife, and wondered if they were just part of "a phase" and wondered if they would pass? 

Personally, I feel that since my DD I have gone through 2 phases, of possible "Hysterical bonding" At first I had the primal "marking my territory", "this is mine" kind of phase. It wasn't very emotionally significant in my opinion, but the sex was out of this world and there was tons of it(4-5 times a day). But I have noticed that in the past 2 weeks my emotions have changed significantly. Sex is down to 2-3 times a day now, but still awesome and no complaints. I am beginning to wonder if it may be because we have made significant headway in learning about our problems, her affair, etc.(both in IC), But I now feel an overwhelming desire for my wife emotionally(something not present in the first few weeks), I liken this feeling I have now to that of the first few years of our relationship. I mean I am crazy about her now (10 years together, everyone knows what that is like, we get complacent). I can't go 10 minutes without thinking about her. I still have my daily moments/hrs of anger, fear, and rage about her affair, but they seem to go away just as easily as they appear after we discuss them. So I guess I am trying to decide if I have moved past the "hysterical bonding" phase and I am being left with raw feelings that will again stand the test of time. 

I suppose I'm basically just a little scared of a few things right now, and I just wanted to know if you or anyone has ever taken these questions into account in the early stages of RR. I am not trying to thread jack here. I thought about posting this elsewhere, but I thought about you and your situation and decided I would let you decide if you wish me to move this to another area. I think this line of questions could benefit others as well. 

Thanks for any insight you may have.


----------



## dogman

Regret214 said:


> I don't think it will be possible for me to forgive myself. The closest I can get to this is to be the person I should have been all along and learn from my destructive choices. And, NEVER NEVER take my husband, my family and myself for granted!


 6 years later and I still hate even the memory of how I was and how I acted. It keeps me treating my wife like a queen. I still wish every day for that elusive time machine so I can undo the damage, but only as long as I can be the man I am today. If I could only block out what I did, I like myself more and my wife has a much more emotional connection with me now than ever before. 
Regretting is a huge motivator of change very possibly the biggest motivator. 
Do not confuse regret with self hate. Regret is useful self hate will only hinder you. Let self hate go eventually and hang onto regretting your actions.


----------



## dogman

Empty Inside said:


> Alright, we just got back from our son's birthday party. I'm kind of exhausted. You all know I'm never short on lengthy explanations for things, but my brain doesn't have the energy to go into this right now. I WILL get back to this later. But for now, I'll leave you with this. Reconciliations CAN NEVER be about the BS exacting punishment on the CS. They CAN and SHOULD include the CS making amends to the BS. Punishment and amends.... two different things. One WILL destroy a marriage and the other can help to save a marriage.
> 
> About forgiveness.... unless you are truly able to forgive yourself, then you cannot expect your spouse to do the same. It takes time and work. Geeeez, I have spent a lot of my husband's hard earned money in therapy.... but you know what, I'm feeling pretty good and I am so happy that I get to spend the rest of my life helping B1 feel good, loved, honored, adored, cherished and desired, as well.
> 
> Regret, I think you and Dig have turned the corner!



I agree with you EI. Absolutely, in regard to punishing a WS. Unfortunately it happens and it happened to me and still does now and again 6 years later. The anger has to come out at some point at least to empower the BT for a time then it has to stop. We are human. It is a hinderance to recovery...it almost ended my marriage. But forgiveness takes time and hopefully wins. 
Forgiving yourself...I'm working on it still.

The relationship that Dig and Regret are working toward is something to be envied.. Not the cause but the product.


----------



## SomedayDig

Exsquid said:


> Hey Dig, I have been following your thread here closely for a few weeks. I have a couple of questions that I would like to ask you about your feelings and the feelings that you have towards your wife now and since your DD. If you don't want to answer here or at all that's OK, I'll understand. I don't want to derail what you are doing or come between you and your wife. I am going through almost the exact same thing you are right now (DD 8 weeks ago, wife acting similar to Regret, and both of us wanting to R (I'm still cautious right now). I am sorry if these questions or statements may be a "trigger" but from what I have read from your posts you are doing this for the sake of helping not just your marriage, but any other peoples marriages as well. Mine needs help! lol And I apologize for the grammar and such, I hated English in HS
> 
> *Yes, we are doing this not just to help our marriage but possibly anyone else who is going through the same. Don't worry about my triggers. They're mine and they can happen if someone spells a f'ng word wrong probably!! *
> 
> 1. I have a few questions in the sexual realm, but they are not specific to anything other than feelings.
> 
> -->Once you and Regret became intimate following DD, did you then or now have any confidence issues? Or hesitations based on your performance or abilities?
> 
> *In the beginning I had a little bit of performance/confidence issues but I don't think it was because I wondered if the xOM was better at all...I think it was just the overwhelming idea that she had been banging him for 5 years!*
> 
> -->Did you feel any more or less inclined to perform to a certain level in order to some how "prove to Regret" that she didn't need anyone else. Or prove to yourself that you could "handle business"?
> 
> *Nope. I've always performed well for myself. Not patting myself on the back or anything but...let's just say Regret has never had any issues with me in that department. I've never felt like I had to prove my sexual prowess one bit.*
> 
> -->Do you have an OVERWHELMING desire to make sure that she is pleased to no end, or are there times where you aren't concerned with her satisfaction?
> 
> *I've always enjoyed giving her at least one orgasm each time, so honestly I've always been concerned with her satisfaction. It excites me to know I do that to her and helps me in the end. Times when I'm "not" concerned with her satisfaction are when she just crawls on the bed with me and says "no sex but I'm gonna take care of you". Ummm :smthumbup:*
> 
> 2. My WS has claimed that one reason for her affair was lack of physical touch. EX. Kissing, holding hands, hugging, cuddling, etc. If your wife claims the same thing. Do you or have you, noticed that you are doing too much now (In your eyes, not hers)? Not because you think you are smothering her, but because you are in some way trying to, again "prove to her" that you can and will give her all the things she said you weren't providing to her before her affair?
> 
> *The night of Dday, Regret told me one of the reasons was I wasn't "intimate" with her. Basically, that was nothing but a bullsh-t answer and cop out. I'd suggest that might be the same for you, but don't put it that way to her just yet. Regret understands now that her affair had nothing to do with my "lack" of intimacy. It had to do with her lack of boundaries and an ego in turbo drive. I don't do too much with her. I don't feel an urge to hold her hand or anything. Even when we've walked into a bar when she's looking fabulous (which is all the time) I haven't felt that "need" to hold her or show everyone she's mine.*
> 
> 3. I am fully aware of the term "Hysterical Bonding Phase". What is your take on your situation in reference to this term? What role has this "phase" had on your RR at the beginning and/or now? I have read alot about it and it has actually left me with more questions and concerns than answers and I am curious if you have thought about similar things. I have read that basically this is a phase that most go through in similar situations like ours, and that it usually lasts between 1 & 6 months. Another question to you would be, have you ever sat back and thought about your feelings towards your wife, and wondered if they were just part of "a phase" and wondered if they would pass?
> 
> *Here's my take on "Hysterical Bonding": If the term is thrown out there because I'm banging the heck outta my wife like I should have been for the past 5 years then I'm f'ng guilty. I'll be a guilty mother f'er for a LONG time! However, yes, initially there was a desire to literally bang her back (yes...that is exactly the term I used with her! lol) to me and we were in the sack all the time. I have reflected on my feelings toward Regret and I'll be honest that sometimes they kinda suck moose balls. But that's okay. I'm recovering from the news that she had a 5 year affair. I'm gonna be a bit bonkers now and then!*
> 
> Personally, I feel that since my DD I have gone through 2 phases, of possible "Hysterical bonding" At first I had the primal "marking my territory", "this is mine" kind of phase. It wasn't very emotionally significant in my opinion, but the sex was out of this world and there was tons of it(4-5 times a day). But I have noticed that in the past 2 weeks my emotions have changed significantly. Sex is down to 2-3 times a day now, but still awesome and no complaints. I am beginning to wonder if it may be because we have made significant headway in learning about our problems, her affair, etc.(both in IC), But I now feel an overwhelming desire for my wife emotionally(something not present in the first few weeks), I liken this feeling I have now to that of the first few years of our relationship. I mean I am crazy about her now (10 years together, everyone knows what that is like, we get complacent). I can't go 10 minutes without thinking about her. I still have my daily moments/hrs of anger, fear, and rage about her affair, but they seem to go away just as easily as they appear after we discuss them. So I guess I am trying to decide if I have moved past the "hysterical bonding" phase and I am being left with raw feelings that will again stand the test of time.
> 
> *See my response above and I will add to it. Will the sex of a couple times a day cool off? Yes. That's okay, though. Regret and I have reached a part where the frequency has dropped but the intensity has not. I find myself caring about our relationship a TON more than I have in a long, long time and that is good. I care and I actually, like you, think about it. I would definitely say that is headway to reconciliation and recovery.*
> 
> I suppose I'm basically just a little scared of a few things right now, and I just wanted to know if you or anyone has ever taken these questions into account in the early stages of RR. I am not trying to thread jack here. I thought about posting this elsewhere, but I thought about you and your situation and decided I would let you decide if you wish me to move this to another area. I think this line of questions could benefit others as well.
> 
> *Absolutely not a threadjack IMO one bit. The title of this thread is Dig and Regret214's Q&A Thread. You had the Q and I had the A. It is certainly in-line with the REASON we started this thread. Oh...and it's okay to be scared. Accept it and don't try to f'ng hide it. Make sure you tell your wife how you feel all the time, man. DON'T HIDE YOUR FEELINGS ever.*
> 
> Thanks for any insight you may have.



Sorry I didn't get right back to you when you posted. I was at the golf course with the pro getting a lesson. And THAT is what my reconciliation and recovery is moving toward - that I actually _have_ fun. Me. Alone sometimes. It's good to do!

This past week last was a HUGE part of my recovery from Regret's affair. I was angry. I was pissed. How the F could she do this to me...to US?! Truth is, she had already answered that months ago and I just wasn't ready to really accept it. Until yesterday.

I get it.

She. Was an idiot. For 5 years she did stuff that NO ONE should ever do and people like you and me shouldn't have to endure the after effects. I'm not saying that to demean Regret as she would definitely agree with me. She is not the same chick she was on 3/6 at 10:30PM (I confronted her at 10:34). She is the chick who I met in her office the first time. She's the chick I sat in a bar with on our first "date" and had *ONE* drink with between 11pm and 3am. She's the chick I fell in love with...the one I married...the one who gave birth to our children.

However...this is a new marriage. The old one...is dead. Good. I prefer this one anyways.


----------



## EI

dogman said:


> Do not confuse regret with self hate. Regret is useful self hate will only hinder you. Let self hate go eventually and hang onto regretting your actions.



Well said, I completely agree with you.


----------



## B1

Exsquid said:


> Hey Dig, I have been following your thread here closely for a few weeks. I have a couple of questions that I would like to ask you about your feelings and the feelings that you have towards your wife now and since your DD. If you don't want to answer here or at all that's OK, I'll understand. I don't want to derail what you are doing or come between you and your wife. I am going through almost the exact same thing you are right now (DD 8 weeks ago, wife acting similar to Regret, and both of us wanting to R (I'm still cautious right now). I am sorry if these questions or statements may be a "trigger" but from what I have read from your posts you are doing this for the sake of helping not just your marriage, but any other peoples marriages as well. Mine needs help! lol And I apologize for the grammar and such, I hated English in HS
> 
> 
> 1. I have a few questions in the sexual realm, but they are not specific to anything other than feelings.
> 
> -->Once you and Regret became intimate following DD, did you then or now have any confidence issues? Or hesitations based on your performance or abilities?
> -->Did you feel any more or less inclined to perform to a certain level in order to some how "prove to Regret" that she didn't need anyone else. Or prove to yourself that you could "handle business"?
> -->Do you have an OVERWHELMING desire to make sure that she is pleased to no end, or are there times where you aren't concerned with her satisfaction?
> 
> 
> 2. My WS has claimed that one reason for her affair was lack of physical touch. EX. Kissing, holding hands, hugging, cuddling, etc. If your wife claims the same thing. Do you or have you, noticed that you are doing too much now (In your eyes, not hers)? Not because you think you are smothering her, but because you are in some way trying to, again "prove to her" that you can and will give her all the things she said you weren't providing to her before her affair?
> 
> 3. I am fully aware of the term "Hysterical Bonding Phase". What is your take on your situation in reference to this term? What role has this "phase" had on your RR at the beginning and/or now? I have read alot about it and it has actually left me with more questions and concerns than answers and I am curious if you have thought about similar things. I have read that basically this is a phase that most go through in similar situations like ours, and that it usually lasts between 1 & 6 months. Another question to you would be, have you ever sat back and thought about your feelings towards your wife, and wondered if they were just part of "a phase" and wondered if they would pass?
> 
> Personally, I feel that since my DD I have gone through 2 phases, of possible "Hysterical bonding" At first I had the primal "marking my territory", "this is mine" kind of phase. It wasn't very emotionally significant in my opinion, but the sex was out of this world and there was tons of it(4-5 times a day). But I have noticed that in the past 2 weeks my emotions have changed significantly. Sex is down to 2-3 times a day now, but still awesome and no complaints. I am beginning to wonder if it may be because we have made significant headway in learning about our problems, her affair, etc.(both in IC), But I now feel an overwhelming desire for my wife emotionally(something not present in the first few weeks), I liken this feeling I have now to that of the first few years of our relationship. I mean I am crazy about her now (10 years together, everyone knows what that is like, we get complacent). I can't go 10 minutes without thinking about her. I still have my daily moments/hrs of anger, fear, and rage about her affair, but they seem to go away just as easily as they appear after we discuss them. So I guess I am trying to decide if I have moved past the "hysterical bonding" phase and I am being left with raw feelings that will again stand the test of time.
> 
> I suppose I'm basically just a little scared of a few things right now, and I just wanted to know if you or anyone has ever taken these questions into account in the early stages of RR. I am not trying to thread jack here. I thought about posting this elsewhere, but I thought about you and your situation and decided I would let you decide if you wish me to move this to another area. I think this line of questions could benefit others as well.
> 
> Thanks for any insight you may have.


Exsquid, I am 10 weeks past DD#2
My wife sought an emotional and physical connection\affair because she definitely wasn't getting it from me. So in our case there was no sex, no touching, kissing etc. She got it from her AP. They had sex, lots and lots of it, sometimes 3x in one day. Something we never did prior to the A.

Now, after DD. We have had some amazing sex, we have topped what they did, but not necessarily because I felt I had to prove something, it's just that we are bonding all over again, or maybe more so then ever before. It's like we are discovering each other all over again, I do feel this need to please her, really please her, but not because of the xOM it's because I love her, I really love her and want to make her happy, and making her happy in bed is very important to me now, it NEVER was before, my stupid mistake. 

Your still having sex 2-3 times a day..geezz dude. Good for you. 
I would say that's still hysterical bonding. We are at 3-4 times a week maybe a little more, we still have kids at home which can hinder us some. But it's always very intense and very good, unlike anything we had pre-affair. Sex is just out of this world now. I think it always will be from now on. 

Sure, there may be some comparing, some I need to be better than him, but it's not driving me, it's not on my mind all the time, especially during sex. During sex for me, it's only about me and her, and making her happy.

I think about my wife a lot too, probably as often as you do. When I'm at work, I find I miss her horribly sometimes. Then I can also find myself fighting the mind movies, the images of her and the xOM together. It's a constant battle, but one I am winning.

I think your feelings are real, it sounds like you were SHOCKED back to life like I was. I was a closed off, un-emotional being pre-affair. Now, I am an emotional being, I love, I hurt, I cry, I laugh, I get angry, I get frustrated, I use four letter words, I yell at other drivers, I love, I need love etc. I also have a beer now and then, something I didn't do before. I am NOT the same person, It sounds like your not either. 

Time will only tell if this is a new you or a temporary thing. If your like me then it does worry you some. I never want to go back to that old me, that old un-emotional, un-attached person. I never want to be that way again. That is one BIG reason I am in IC. I really believe though this new me is here to stay. I like this new me, I want to open up even more.


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## Exsquid

Thankyou Dig and B1. I have tried for a few minutes to respond, but I just can't. I am in one of my moods right now after a long drawn out fight of sorts last night. I will get back to you guys when I can. I think it may be time for me to start my own story on here. It would appear I may have way more issues with regards to the events of the past 2 years, than even I thought. Thankyou for your responses.


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## SomedayDig

One thing that might be helpful squid is to write your story in textpad or notebook first and then copy/paste it here. That way you can take your time writing it. Don't worry about length or anything. Just be somewhat concise with the story and give moderate details. The questions people will ask should get more details to come out.

Sorry it sounds like you're in a mood. Trust me...we totally understand!


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## SomedayDig

dogman said:


> 6 years later and I still hate even the memory of how I was and how I acted. It keeps me treating my wife like a queen. I still wish every day for that elusive time machine so I can undo the damage, but only as long as I can be the man I am today. If I could only block out what I did, I like myself more and my wife has a much more emotional connection with me now than ever before.
> Regretting is a huge motivator of change very possibly the biggest motivator.
> Do not confuse regret with self hate. Regret is useful self hate will only hinder you. Let self hate go eventually and hang onto regretting your actions.


I don't know how I missed seeing this post or maybe I just honestly skimmed. Thanks for saying that to Regret. I have literally seen a big change in her the past few days where she seems to be lighter in mood throughout the day. One of the things we struggle with, but are empowered by, is when one of us is down - the other is there to help hold them up. It's one of the strengths we've shared. Oddly enough, I can tell you this happened even _during_ her affair. I can recall her being so sad at times...crying for reasons truly unknown to me (understood now!) and holding her and telling her how much I love her. Also, when she just held me after my Mom died. Just held me quietly and let me mourn.

You are spot on - self hate does nothing for the soul.



dogman said:


> I agree with you EI. Absolutely, in regard to punishing a WS. Unfortunately it happens and it happened to me and still does now and again 6 years later. The anger has to come out at some point at least to empower the BT for a time then it has to stop. We are human. It is a hinderance to recovery...it almost ended my marriage. But forgiveness takes time and hopefully wins.
> Forgiving yourself...I'm working on it still.
> 
> The relationship that Dig and Regret are working toward is something to be envied.. Not the cause but the product.


Regret says she doesn't think she'll forgive herself anytime soon. I understand, but I would encourage any WS, as difficult as it is for me to write it - take care of yourself. If working on reconciliation, you'll be doing a disservice to your BS if you bog yourself down in your wrong doings.


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## SomedayDig

SomedayDig said:


> Thanks Beowulf.
> 
> I know this might be out of character, but I want people to see the real me. The real Dig. First...I am a simple guy ~ I only say that cuz Regret always laughs when I say it, but it really is how I see myself. I understand I am extremely complex, though. Yet, I keep myself grounded.
> 
> Music is one of those things in my life that has meaning. Besides reading books, I am a musician. I've played drums my entire life. I've always loved music. It moves me. Besides books I myself have actually written and published, I have written music. Lots of it. From baroque to metal to house music. I've done it all. A few days after Dday, Regret and I went to dinner. I played her a song that moved me the morning after Dday and I'd like to share it with you guys. I understand it is music that not everyone is accustomed to or a style that not a lot of people can appreciate. It is metal. Like harsh, really heavy mathematical music. Mathematical because of the intricacy and execution. Metal because...well, it's pretty f'ng heavy.
> 
> Regret got it. I hope you guys do, too. It's a song called 'Descending' by the band Lamb of God. I lived in Richmond, VA when they first came out. I used to go see them before they were popular and have always had an affinity for their music. So. Here ya go.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lShv3KYV4Fs
> 
> As for my name. Well, look up the song 'Someday' by John Legend from the movie "August Rush"
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpOdpFvtBs
> 
> And the song 'Dig' by Incubus
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMsZ6wkZWhA


Just to remind everyone who SomedayDig is...


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## CantSitStill

Nice to see this thread active again.. We are all pulling for eachother, we are all in this together and I know Calvin and I won't give up. I don't think you guys will either. Same for Empty and B1.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I love the Song Simple Man by Lynard Skynard
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Welcome back Dig,hope the guards treated you better than they did me. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

CantSitStill said:


> I love the Song Simple Man by Lynard Skynard
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well...you know that story. One of my favorite songs, too. Except when I first met Regret and referred to myself as a simple man, she just kinda laughed. Still does when I continue to remind her that I am really just a simple man.


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## canttrustu

welcome back to the TAM train good to be off the bannedwagon???


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## bigtone128

Regret -
Did you feel yourself going in the fog?
Were you sharing negative stuff about Dig with the affair partner?
If so, did you Did you ever think or feel badly for Dig?
When the affair was going on did you feel guilty for what you were doing to Dig?
What made you snap out of the affair? Honestly, was it love for Dig or pain for yourself?
When it hit you what you did, how bad was the emotional pain?
What are your feelings for the affair partner now?
I am at a place where I want to believe in karma, do you think you got the pain you caused Dig?
When you look in Dig's eyes, do you see the pain you caused him?


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## bigtone128

Dig - 
How did you get to the place of ever wanting to forgive Regret?
When you are with her, do you ever get moments when what she did comes to mind and you get filled with anger towards her?
If so, how do you handle it?
How do you ever trust her again?
Do you see her as a different person now?
Do you feel like you are second place with Regret seeing she really chose someone over you?
Do you ever feel that there will forever be a presence in your marriage now by what she did?
How did you ever get to the point of being able to forgive Regret?


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## Regret214

bigtone128 said:


> Regret -
> Did you feel yourself going in the fog?
> *I didn't recognize the fog until it lifted. I just assumed my life and my marriage was what I was living. My lens was very distorted.*
> 
> Were you sharing negative stuff about Dig with the affair partner?
> *Nothing specific. He knew I was unhappy, but I didn't get into any details as to why I felt that way.*
> 
> If so, did you Did you ever think or feel badly for Dig?
> *At times I felt guilt about what I was doing, but was so caught up in my own reality that I honestly only thought of myself and my needs.*
> 
> When the affair was going on did you feel guilty for what you were doing to Dig?
> *See previous...*
> 
> What made you snap out of the affair? Honestly, was it love for Dig or pain for yourself?
> *Getting caught snapped me out. I always felt love for Dig, but failed to show it. I felt like I had been awakened from a horrible dream.*
> 
> When it hit you what you did, how bad was the emotional pain?
> *I still struggle with what I did, and don't know if I can ever forgive myself. I am disgusted with myself and disappointed in myself.*
> 
> What are your feelings for the affair partner now?
> *I don't care to every see him or speak to him again.*
> 
> I am at a place where I want to believe in karma, do you think you got the pain you caused Dig?
> *Absolutely not! I do have pain, and shame, and anger....but not to the degree that Dig deals with. In addition, mine is directed towards myself.*
> 
> When you look in Dig's eyes, do you see the pain you caused him?
> *Every day, and it breaks my heart.*


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## SomedayDig

bigtone128 said:


> Dig -
> How did you get to the place of ever wanting to forgive Regret?
> 
> *Good question. I WANT to get to the place of forgiving Regret, but I think it will simply take time.*
> 
> When you are with her, do you ever get moments when what she did comes to mind and you get filled with anger towards her?
> 
> *I do, however it is rare. But it does happen.*
> 
> If so, how do you handle it?
> 
> *Sometimes I handle it well and go into my garage and beat the crap out of my heavy bag. Other times I don't handle it so well and wind up saying mean sh-t. Then, other times still I envision my fist plowing into the xOM's face.*
> 
> How do you ever trust her again?
> 
> *By asking questions and getting honest answers. Also, by giving her a bit of space and trusting that she will do the right thing. Also, her transparency with emails, FB and cell phone stuff is huge. It is what helps propel me at times with trust.*
> 
> Do you see her as a different person now?
> 
> *I not only see her as a different person, I actually feel her as a different person. Hindsight to pre-Dday is crazy because I have such a large capacity for memory. She actually FEELS real when we're together now. Previous to Dday, there were so many times that she was so distant, she was merely a shell. I wish I really "saw" it back then for what it was.*
> 
> Do you feel like you are second place with Regret seeing she really chose someone over you?
> 
> *Nope.*
> 
> Do you ever feel that there will forever be a presence in your marriage now by what she did?
> 
> *I don't think anything will ever erase the scar of her affair, so the honest answer is I do think there will always be a presence in our marriage regarding that. Now, that said, it's like my own sexual abuse as a child. It happened and was a horrible thing for a young boy to go through...but it does not DEFINE me. Neither will this affair (as long as it was) define our marriage. In my eyes at least.*
> 
> How did you ever get to the point of being able to forgive Regret?


Good question. I'll let ya know when I get to that point.


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## badbane

Hey dig how you doin? Welcome back!!!!!!!


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## SomedayDig

I'm 3 bubbles shy of effervescent Badbane, so I'm doing pretty good, man!


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## Almostrecovered

SomedayDig said:


> Good question. I'll let ya know when I get to that point.


Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?


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## SomedayDig

Almostrecovered said:


> Are we there yet?
> Are we there yet?
> Are we there yet?
> Are we there yet?
> Are we there yet?
> Are we there yet?
> Are we there yet?
> Are we there yet?
> Are we there yet?
> Are we there yet?
> Are we there yet?
> Are we there yet?


Good God I just had a flashback to the 12 hour drive to the beach last month!!!! :rofl:


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## happyman64

SomedayDig said:


> Good God I just had a flashback to the 12 hour drive to the beach last month!!!! :rofl:


That sounds like a story i hope you share it?

And you will get there, there is no doubt in my mind. Regret is one lucky woman. 

She just might not know it or feel it yet.


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## bigtone128

Well I am impressed with both of you for your honesty - \I relate to Dig but learm more from regret about what my STBXW is thinking and feeling and in a weird way it comforts me -----i realize it is not me or due to me...it is her........


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## SomedayDig

I'm glad to hear this helps in any way bigtone. That's what it's about!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214

happyman64 said:


> That sounds like a story i hope you share it?
> 
> And you will get there, there is no doubt in my mind. Regret is one lucky woman.
> 
> She just might not know it or feel it yet.


happy, I know! and I'm glad it's not too late to be what Dig deserves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badbane

Hey guys so I read about the blow up and I am glad that's all over with. Dig did you have any emotional backsliding from that. side note to Regret as soon as you remember something "TALK" don't hold back or wait till the "perfect time." Remember transparency sucks but spilling it like you have blabbermouth disease will at least prevent dig having to fall back on his spidey sense. Glad to see you guys are back..


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## cabin fever

I have a question for Dig...........

do you get conjugal visits in TAM prison?


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## SomedayDig

badbane said:


> Hey guys so I read about the blow up and I am glad that's all over with. Dig did you have any emotional backsliding from that. side note to Regret as soon as you remember something "TALK" don't hold back or wait till the "perfect time." Remember transparency sucks but spilling it like you have blabbermouth disease will at least prevent dig having to fall back on his spidey sense. Glad to see you guys are back..


Badbane...yeah, I think I did have some emotional backsliding from that blow up. It was pretty bad because it was literally the whole "I thought I knew" crap and it was like being back on March 6th again. THAT is what really got me, man. Regret certainly bore the brunt of my anger, as you read...however, I was able to regain my bearings rather quickly and feel like I've rebounded well. It was only 2 weeks ago. Seems longer to be honest!



cabin fever said:


> I have a question for Dig...........
> 
> do you get conjugal visits in TAM prison?


Yes. And they were pretty f'ng awesome!!


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