# Is it doomed?



## MadeMistakes (Apr 26, 2011)

Hi all,

My husband and I have been married for almost two years now. Prior to that we dated for about a year and a half. We have a one year old son as well.

Things have been rocky for about a year now, maybe longer, but definitely haven't been peachy for the past year. In the beginning stages of us having problems, I will admit that I was exhibiting behaviors that he probably should have challenged, and I was (subconsciously) testing the limit for just how far backwards he would bend for me. Apparently I found that breaking point. I am ashamed that I acted this way, and I certainly did not do it in good conscious, and have spent a good deal of time trying to undo those behaviors.

In the beginning he would state that the problems in our relationship were stemming from my actions, or, rather, my lack of actions. I was lazy and spoiled (partially his fault - he spoiled me throughout our entire courtship, why would I expect that to ever come to an end?). He did 99% of the household chores, cooking, cleaning, taking care of our dogs, taking care of me, etc. all on top of working full time (I was working full time as well). He finally snapped (as any person would, I assume) and over the past 9 months or so I have completely changed my behavior. I *happily* clean, cook, take care of our son on the weekends and in the evenings so that my husband can work longer, take care of the dogs, do the laundry, dishes, etc. while also going the extra mile to make sure that I am doing some little things for him that I know he likes and appreciates (make him his lunch in the morning, make him his coffee, etc.). We have established a good balance and when he is home he helps me with all of these things.

However, when the going gets rough, my husband seems to want to get going. He still states that he doesn't think that "this" (our marriage) is going to work. And now that I have basically done everything that he has asked of me, and without resentment, mind you!, he is now turning it into "the spark is gone" or "we grew up and instead of growing together we grew apart" or "our personalities just clash" type statements.

However, our day to day interactions really doesn't seem to jive with those statements. We still say we love each other (frequently). He still acts sweet to me. He still has physical contact with me (backrubs, putting his hand on my shoulder, putting his arm around me, placing his hand on the small of my back, hugs, kisses, etc.). We get along and rarely nitpick one another (something we did early on in our marriage, but quickly learned that it was not a good thing). We are much better communicators than we were. We still have good conversation, we still laugh, we still joke, we still have fun and enjoy one another's company. We don't struggle to make conversation. We encourage and support one another. We thank one another.

After he drops the D word, we talk, I (usually) cry, but not always where/when he can see me doing it, he says he'll give "it" more time and keep trying, but he also says that he cannot promise me that it will turn out one way or the other. I cry some more, but, again, not always where/when he can see me doing it. And then life goes back to "normal" - the next morning we will wake up and life goes on. If I push to have a conversation the next morning/day/night after a conversation like that, then the issues will resurface, but he will be a little less stone-hearted than he was the night before. I have learned to not have these conversations the next day...

He says he is afraid of "wasting time/his life" in something that isn't making him happy. He's not sure that this is what he wants for the rest of his life. He's scared of waking up in ten years with a mortgage and 2 more kids and realizing that he made a huge mistake and just having a breakdown because of it.

I personally think that he is realizing it's time to grow up and mature, and THAT is what he isn't happy with. That bills, kids, marriage, etc. isn't some sunny parade of awesomeness every minute of every day, and, yes, that's what he has chosen for the rest of his life. And now that he's coming to realize that, he's second guessing, doubting decisions, and giving those "what if" lingerings in his head a real voice and concern.

I love my husband. I really, really do. I do not want a divorce. I know that he is on the fence, and out of his own stubbornness I am afraid to give him an ultimatum of "shiit or get off the pot" in regards to actually going through with the divorce, because depending on the day, his choice may change. I am happy to stand by his side while he "grows up" and matures and accepts his responsibility and "learns" to be happy (though I think he already is), or, rather, be content with his choices. But now I'm wondering if he's going to step up and accept it, or if he's just going to throw in the towel and "quit" our marriage.

I do not view marriage as much of a choice. Yes, it was a choice to become married, but once married, it is now a commitment. A commitment that will require time and hard work (at times). A commitment that, when things get tough, we pull up our boots and get to figuring things out and working on things together so that we can be happy on the other side of the storm together.

INSIGHT ABOUT MY HUSBAND: My husband comes from a family of divorce. His parents got divorced (dad was gone a lot, mom had an affair with dad's best friend, my husband and his brother both knew this was happening) and both remarried and are "happier now than they ever were before" (his mom did marry the man she had the affair with - H's dad's EX-bestfriend). My husband was...10? when these problems really reached a head, so he was really aware of them. He resented his mom for a very long time for what she did in regards to cheating on his dad and breaking up the family. However, he has recently gotten very close to his mom and I find it interesting that his tales of why he is unhappy run very parallel to the stories she has told me about why she was unhappy (right down to she was walking down the aisle and had doubts about what she was doing...my husband, just recently, has pulled that out of his hat of tricks as to one of the reasons he doubts our marriage - but he says that he always wants to make everyone happy and never takes time to think about himself, and he didn't want to make everyone unhappy by calling off the wedding). My husband also comes from a very entitled family. They had (have) a lot of money. He was spoiled, got to go on trips, went to school on his parent's dime, etc. However, he is somewhat of the black sheep and is nowhere near as egotistical as his father and brother are. He is very kind and caring, very loyal and very, very hardworking. However, unbeknownst to me (this was never displayed in our courtship or engagement period), he also isn't one to shy away from walking away when the problem becomes bigger than he expected, or bigger than he wants to deal with. He's always been a doormat (up until, probably a year ago) and people-pleaser, so I think that this is how he tends to "deal" with problems and has "dealt" with problems for a long time.

Also, we live in the same town as his family, and nowhere near mine. When I speak to my dad about these problems (my mom died when I was young - I have nobody else to talk to and my sisters are too young to get much of good advice from them) he also says that he thinks my husband is just realizing that this is what it is to be a grown up, and he's having a bit of a panic attack, so to speak, in realizing that this is, essentially, what his life will be like. My husband's mom is really in favor of our relationship and the two of us continuing to work on things and figure it out. My husband's dad, however, really, really dislikes me. He has made statements that fall juuuust short of "yes, divorce her, you'll be much happier" and is a very strongly opinionated man, and makes sure that his voice is heard. I think that my husband still struggles with yearning to have his dad's approval and that this weighs into his constant battle with himself in regards to our marriage. My husband's brother has spoken with him and has, in no uncertain terms, told him that "this is what you always do when things get hard - you quit. I'm sorry buddy but this is one thing you're not really allowed to quit." Sorry if all of that was too much, but I think that it does in fact play a role in all of this.

Does anybody have any advice on where to go from here? Any insight? Words of encouragement or wisdom?

I really want to save my marriage, and want to know that I did everything I possibly could in an effort to make that happen. More than anything, it felt really, really good to get all of that out of inside of me. I appreciate it if you managed to read it, and I really appreciate if you leave a comment. Thank you.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Sounds like he is feeling trapped. When people start throwing the D word around liberally and saying they "don't think it's going to work" there is weight in what they are saying, IMO.

Start doing 180s. Stop crying. Tell him you want the marriage and are committed to working it out. Start helping him w/ the housework and whatnot.

Be happy. Be the person YOU would want to be married to.

Why does his father dislike you so much? Do you know? And what kind of "behavior" where you "exhibiting that should have been challenged?"


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## MadeMistakes (Apr 26, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Sounds like he is feeling trapped. When people start throwing the D word around liberally and saying they "don't think it's going to work" there is weight in what they are saying, IMO.
> 
> Start doing 180s. Stop crying. Tell him you want the marriage and are committed to working it out. Start helping him w/ the housework and whatnot.
> 
> ...


I have done much better in stopping the crying (at least when he is around).

I do all of the housework, or at least 95% of it. I didn't to begin with - I was lazy and "allowed" him to take care of everything. This is the behavior that I'm talking about that should have never happened, and he had a right to stand up to me and call me out on it.

His dad doesn't like me because I made the mistake of not being like everyone else he likes and just going along to get along with him and stroking his ego. When I disagreed with him, I would tell him - he did NOT like that. I would stand up for myself, my husband, and our family - something he was not used to, ESPECIALLY coming from a woman. He, honest to God, referred to himself as the "patriarch of this family" to me and he "refused" to allow me to challenge him as such. He didn't like that I didn't instantly conform to his expectations of what I would be, and that I encouraged his son (my husband) to stand up for himself. When my husband finally DID stand up for himself, it caused great tension between him and his father (but our marriage was nothing but great then!), and then his father eventually turned it around into "why did you let your wife come between us? Don't you see what she's doing to us? She's creating conflict between you and everyone you care about." When really all I was doing was giving my husband the self confidence he should have had all of his life and not being scared to stand up to his father once in a while and not be used over and over and over.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Someone else?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MadeMistakes (Apr 26, 2011)

ClipClop said:


> Someone else?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As far as I know, no. He is not the cheating type. I thought at one point that he may be having an EA, but that relationship has been ended (he didn't even know there was a label for that type of relationship). I would be more willing to bet that he is exploring man love than that he is having sex with another woman.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Man love?

BTW, there isn't a cheating type.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MadeMistakes (Apr 26, 2011)

ClipClop said:


> Man love?
> 
> BTW, there isn't a cheating type.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know there isn't. I just believe that he is not a liar and he has communicated his hatred for people who cheat enough that I believe he would not be one of them. He has things he likes in the bedroom that he feels are "gay." I don't equate them to that because, hey, why can't it feel good and you can be straight? I know that he has had thoughts of what it would be like with another man. I would be less shocked to find out that he had experimented with another guy than I would be to find out that he had sex with another woman.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Isn't that still cheating ? a lot of people sure they would never cheat cheat. some of the people who squawk loudest about cheating cheat. 
it is amazing how much of a liar people become once they start cheatring


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

ClipClop said:


> BTW, there isn't a cheating type.


Quote of the day! 



MadeMistakes said:


> I know there isn't. I just believe that he is not a liar and he has communicated his hatred for people who cheat enough that I believe he would not be one of them.


My ex husband also said the same. He cheated. 

But anyway, re: the man thing.. that is another issue you may want to look into.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

by the way is it safe to assume you you require that he wear a condom when you have sex with him ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MadeMistakes (Apr 26, 2011)

ClipClop said:


> by the way is it safe to assume you you require that he wear a condom when you have sex with him ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very safe to assume this, yes.

I have thought before (as well as now, thanks for causing me paranoia) that he might be cheating simply because of his behaviors. However, I always silence those thoughts in my mind because I think that anybody could convince themselves of something if they think about it often enough.

I also have heard that the ones who "squawk" loudest in regards to hating cheaters are indeed the most likely to actually be cheaters. But he has preached this for a very, very long time (since before I knew him) - it is not simply a mantra he has suddenly adopted.


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## MadeMistakes (Apr 26, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Quote of the day!
> 
> 
> But anyway, re: the man thing.. that is another issue you may want to look into.


How, why, and in what fashion?

Sorry, I have always been very...liberal?...in the bedroom (not with sharing and such, but with openness and willing to try new things) and have encouraged him to express what feels good and to not be ashamed simply because it is taboo. He was very green in his sexual experiences prior to meeting me, and it took a while for him to open up in that regard, but I am happy that he has, as I know how much he enjoys it. So if this is the wrong mindset for me to have, please explain to me why, and what of this is concerning.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

The main issue here is Made wants to know if she can save her marriage. 

You need to sit him down and tell him you are willing to work on the marriage and do any/everything to save it and that will leave the ball in his court. If he doesn't bite, you will have to accept it's over. If he does, then great.

In the meantime, do 180s. Be confident. Be happy. Be the wife every man would want to come home to.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

You can't battle what you don't understand. She's unwilling to accept that regardless of how long a person days they hate cheaters, they are still vulnerable to it. 

Further, just because he likes but is nervous about what anal means doesn't make him bi, which is what she OS alleging. The reasoning or wondering there is ok but not about cheating with a woman? I have to think that means she is less intimidated by him being with a man than a woman.

Does he know why you insist on condoms?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

ClipClop said:


> You can't battle what you don't understand.


That's true, however she came to the forum asking what she should do about him throwing the D word around, and asked how to change the dynamic for that. Sexuality and condoms were not brought up in her initial post.

As of now, she's not mentioned that there is cheating. If there is, as you and I both know, that changes everything.

Made, prepare for the worst (that he will walk, that he may cheat, etc). That way you aren't surprised.

But in the interim, 180 your butt off and talk to him about how you are feeling.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

And he has to be made to understand that the D word is,extremely damaging. You may work out this crisis only to be unable to let go of that threat. 

What's he so unhappy about really? Probably himself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

^I agree. when the D word is thrown around liberally, it makes the person the receiving end feel like there is no safety in the marriage.


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## MadeMistakes (Apr 26, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> The main issue here is Made wants to know if she can save her marriage.
> 
> You need to sit him down and tell him you are willing to work on the marriage and do any/everything to save it and that will leave the ball in his court. If he doesn't bite, you will have to accept it's over. If he does, then great.
> 
> In the meantime, do 180s. Be confident. Be happy. Be the wife every man would want to come home to.


Thank you, I appreciate you redirecting the issue to my original question.

I will tell him that, very explicitly. Perhaps I haven't in exactly those words, with no "fluff" in the conversation. Any time that that has come up, however, he has said that he is willing to try and work.

I am becoming a better and better 180-er, I think.


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## MadeMistakes (Apr 26, 2011)

ClipClop said:


> You can't battle what you don't understand. She's unwilling to accept that regardless of how long a person days they hate cheaters, they are still vulnerable to it.
> 
> Further, just because he likes but is nervous about what anal means doesn't make him bi, which is what she OS alleging. The reasoning or wondering there is ok but not about cheating with a woman? I have to think that means she is less intimidated by him being with a man than a woman.
> 
> ...


No, I am not less intimidated by a man vs. a woman, and I'm not trying to justify, or say, that if he was "experimenting" with a man that that would not be considered cheating. Cheating is cheating is cheating, in my book, as well as in his. I'm only trying to say that I very, very highly doubt that he is having sex with another woman, and *IF* he is cheating, I would be less surprised if it were with another man than a woman.

I (and he, too) insist on condoms because they are our sole form of birth control. Due to complications after my pregnancy (pulmonary embolism), I cannot be on any hormonal birth control. This rules out a LOT of options, leaving condoms and diaphragms, basically. Diaphragms are out simply because chronic UTI's are a thing of my past, and I'd rather not reintroduce them to being a thing of my present and future as well.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I agree 100% with what is being posted here. You need to be vigilant and find out what is going on. It is VERY rare to find a husband who is just up and done, wants a divorce leaving behind a wife and small child. Very rare. In nearly all cases it is because there is somebody else waiting in the wings and he in a "fog" if you will believing his life will be better with her. 
His childhood doesn't help. Avoiding conflict, people pleaser, bullying father, etc. These are people who suffer from low self esteem and eventually they find "esteem" in somebody who doesn't know/see all their warts. It becomes a high and a good one. 
You need to be on alert and find out what is going on. Cellphone, laptop, VAR, keylogger. Something isn't right here.


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## MadeMistakes (Apr 26, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> ^I agree. when the D word is thrown around liberally, it makes the person the receiving end feel like there is no safety in the marriage.


This is exactly what is happening. I am left questioning and second guessing every move, every conversation, every facial expression, every exhibited body language, every prolonged silence... I am always "afraid" of when the D word is going to come out again, and it is eating me up on the inside.


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## MadeMistakes (Apr 26, 2011)

ClipClop said:


> And he has to be made to understand that the D word is,extremely damaging. You may work out this crisis only to be unable to let go of that threat.
> 
> What's he so unhappy about really? Probably himself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is becoming more and more likely simply because we have seemed to work it out before, we will go months, and the D word will resurface again - all while I thought the last two months had been significant progress.

We have put a hiatus on the word. We (and by "we" I mean him, because I don't use it) aren't allowed to say it, and, preferably, even think it, until the end of the summer at the very least. He said that he is willing to give the relationship time and keep trying, so with that I asked him to then give it a fair shot by pretending that divorce simply is not an option and we're going to figure it out. When the idea enters his mind, to shove it aside and just keep plugging along with what IS working, rather than focusing on what is not working, or what still needs to be better.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

You'll end up with PTSD if you put up with it for too long.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MadeMistakes (Apr 26, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I agree 100% with what is being posted here. You need to be vigilant and find out what is going on. It is VERY rare to find a husband who is just up and done, wants a divorce leaving behind a wife and small child. Very rare. In nearly all cases it is because there is somebody else waiting in the wings and he in a "fog" if you will believing his life will be better with her.
> His childhood doesn't help. Avoiding conflict, people pleaser, bullying father, etc. These are people who suffer from low self esteem and eventually they find "esteem" in somebody who doesn't know/see all their warts. It becomes a high and a good one.
> You need to be on alert and find out what is going on. Cellphone, laptop, VAR, keylogger. Something isn't right here.


I didn't want to seem controlling and manipulative, but I do know those things. I can check the cell phone records online (every call in and out, as well as text messages). I have all of the passwords to his email address, laptops, our bank accounts, etc. I have these things because I pay the bills and we trust(ed) each other 100% with that kind of knowledge. His work is on the way to pick my son up from daycare (can be seen from an overhead road) so I can see if he is there. He is self employed - there is no reason for him to not answer my phone calls/text messages when I call or message, or at least return them in a very short time period. He does all of this. He is NOT a good liar, not that he tries to lie very frequently/at all. I can tell you that right now, and I know this for a fact.

The only relationship that he may have that I cannot control/see at all times is the person whom he works next door to. He is also a man who is self employed, has a wife and two kids. But he doesn't have marital problems (at least not openly), is older than my husband, and my husband has openly said that this guy is a user and not the type of person my husband would facilitate any sort of relationship with beyond simply being friendly shop neighbors.

Perhaps there isn't "another person" just yet...but the illusion of what it could/would be like with that other person is what is driving him to this? Can an illusion do that?

I told him once, when I was fighting for our marriage, that I couldn't help but feel as though he was going to dump me and our son and simply "trade us in" for a "newer model." Like, "eh, I've had my fun with that one, let's try another one." He said that if we were to get a divorce it is because he's ready to just be alone.


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## MadeMistakes (Apr 26, 2011)

ClipClop said:


> You'll end up with PTSD if you put up with it for too long.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm a smart person. I really, really am. And I know what this is doing to me, and what it is bound to do to me in the long run. I also know what advice I'd give to a friend if she were in my situation. But for the sake of my marriage, for the sake of how much I truly still love my husband, and for the sake of my son, I cannot throw in the towel at this time. I am not a quitter, especially at something as monumental as this.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

MadeMistakes said:


> I told him once, when I was fighting for our marriage, that I couldn't help but feel as though he was going to dump me and our son and simply "trade us in" for a "newer model." Like, "eh, I've had my fun with that one, let's try another one." He said that if we were to get a divorce it is because he's ready to just be alone.


That is very odd. You guys are best friends, can you _*literally*_ sit him down and tell him what you posted here? 
His childhood doesn't sound great. It sounds like he grew up with abandonment issues and with a bully for a father. Do you think that perhaps he is leaving so he doesn't get hurt again? A way to control his situation from what was taken from him? Perhaps your treatment of him brought that all up? It all sounds a little off. 
I have no idea what goes on in your bedroom. It isn't the bedroom that makes a person gay though. Plenty of straight men like anal play and it is nothing more than what feels good. It is not a definition of their sexuality at all.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

If this is cyclic, sounds biochemical.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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