# OOF - Here I go again, tempted by creativity/intellectual stimulation



## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

I was married for 15 years to a man that stimulated my mind and my creativity. We were artists together and we also worked together. I was never, ever bored. However, I was oftentimes hurt, depressed and sad as he was managing (poorly) a number of mental challenges. We were adventurous risk-takers who never shied away from challenges, especially to express ourselves creatively. Probably we both have some undiagnosed ADD/ADHD as many creatives and entrepreneurs do. Long story short, that marriage crashed and burned.
Since then, I've learned to date emotionally stable men. I've compartmentalized my creative life. I have many hobbies I pursue, I write and make music on my own, dance and learn different sports, all to supplement my 'boring' adult life of corporate america.
I found a man who is extremely loving and committed. He is supportive and kind. He will always be there for me. He is not creative, a maker, a self-starter or an intellectual - traits I felt I could never live without. We have fantastic emotional and physical chemistry - just none of that creative spark between us. If there's an idea floating around, it's because I've generated it. If there's any thought of the future/plans, it's all in my hands. He will be there holding up whatever I dream up. 
In our 5 years together, I have been really tempted by men who are creative and assertive. Tempted to flirt or I've even broken up with my boyfriend a few times because I've felt that I was not sure this would be 'enough' for me in the long-term.
I do want a stable relationship with a man who respects me, which is what I have. I do miss having a partner that I can converse with for hours, be blown away by their insights, or respectful of their contributions to the world. 
I feel like a total asshole for having a relationship that is so good and healthy in many ways, and yet also feeling that I am maybe doing myself a disservice by not satisfying this creative/intellectual piece.
I would love to hear thoughts from those with ADD or in a similar position - how you make it work, if it's worth it/not worth it. My fear is, of course, that I couldn't find a partner who could be both stimulating and sane, all at the same time!! LOL.

Thank you for your thoughts. This seems to cycle up consistently/intensely for me about 2x a year.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

it is unrealistic to expect one person out of 6 billion to fulfill your every whim and desire. 

If we pick just one person to be with, we will make sacrifices because one person cannot completely fulfill us in all things.

We choose to engage with multiple people with differing gifts and talents, we sacrifice some stability and commitment in that as well. 

Do you truly need to commit to and be completely exclusive with just one person?

Can you truly not be happy and satisfied with someone who doesn’t match your level of creativity and free spirit?

Strict monogamy and exclusivity is not for everyone.

But a completely free spirit and fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants life is not for everyone either. 

As a self actualized adult, you will need to determine what is the best lifestyle for you and then own it.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

MW22 said:


> I was married for 15 years to a man that stimulated my mind and my creativity. We were artists together and we also worked together. I was never, ever bored. However, I was oftentimes hurt, depressed and sad as he was managing (poorly) a number of mental challenges. We were adventurous risk-takers who never shied away from challenges, especially to express ourselves creatively. Probably we both have some undiagnosed ADD/ADHD as many creatives and entrepreneurs do. Long story short, that marriage crashed and burned.
> Since then, I've learned to date emotionally stable men. I've compartmentalized my creative life. I have many hobbies I pursue, I write and make music on my own, dance and learn different sports, all to supplement my 'boring' adult life of corporate america.
> I found a man who is extremely loving and committed. He is supportive and kind. He will always be there for me. He is not creative, a maker, a self-starter or an intellectual - traits I felt I could never live without. We have fantastic emotional and physical chemistry - just none of that creative spark between us. If there's an idea floating around, it's because I've generated it. If there's any thought of the future/plans, it's all in my hands. He will be there holding up whatever I dream up.
> In our 5 years together, I have been really tempted by men who are creative and assertive. Tempted to flirt or I've even broken up with my boyfriend a few times because I've felt that I was not sure this would be 'enough' for me in the long-term.
> ...


I think for you perfection will be very difficult to attain. Highly creative people are not stable as you yourself demonstrate. Normal, routine and settled (stable) is not likely to be satisfying to you. The typical dynamic of the relationship between a highly creative person and a non-creative is the kite and kite flyer dynamic. The creative person is the kite, constantly being blown around by the wind and the other is the kite flyer, holding the string anchoring the kite from spinning out of control. I know a few couples like this I used to be a bit of a kite but have settled down quite a bit over the past 10 years or so. It can work but it can be frustrating for both people. The kite will often feel like they are being held back and the flyer can get exhausted with holding onto the string. The ideal kite flyer is a person who is stable and grounded but also highly adaptable and open to new experiences. So a person who may not be highly creative but appreciates and enjoys the results of the kite's creativity. If that makes any sense at all.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MW22 said:


> I was married for 15 years to a man that stimulated my mind and my creativity. We were artists together and we also worked together. I was never, ever bored. However, I was oftentimes hurt, depressed and sad as he was managing (poorly) a number of mental challenges. We were adventurous risk-takers who never shied away from challenges, especially to express ourselves creatively. Probably we both have some undiagnosed ADD/ADHD as many creatives and entrepreneurs do. Long story short, that marriage crashed and burned.
> Since then, I've learned to date emotionally stable men. I've compartmentalized my creative life. I have many hobbies I pursue, I write and make music on my own, dance and learn different sports, all to supplement my 'boring' adult life of corporate america.
> I found a man who is extremely loving and committed. He is supportive and kind. He will always be there for me. He is not creative, a maker, a self-starter or an intellectual - traits I felt I could never live without. We have fantastic emotional and physical chemistry - just none of that creative spark between us. If there's an idea floating around, it's because I've generated it. If there's any thought of the future/plans, it's all in my hands. He will be there holding up whatever I dream up.
> In our 5 years together, I have been really tempted by men who are creative and assertive. Tempted to flirt or I've even broken up with my boyfriend a few times because I've felt that I was not sure this would be 'enough' for me in the long-term.
> ...


I think you have this idea like a lot of people that your romantic relationship is supposed to fulfill all of your needs. That is just not realistic. Find a girlfriend who you can have a created outlet for. There are many things I am into that my wife isn't. I am very technical and I love stuff like that, I also like to have deep philosophical discussion, and while she can hang for a while eventually she is done.

As an example on Saturday I was talking to my wife about Silicon Photonic Ring Modulator-based Transceivers (something I was curious about) and she looked at she responded glazed over, "sounds great". Now how silly would it be if I got on here and said, "am I selling myself short because my wife doesn't have the interest in technology and science the way I do?" That is kind of what you are doing. 

Besides that there is a bigger issue and I want to say this and I hope you at least try to think about what I am saying and not get offended. Your take on relationships seems kind of selfish. It's, he does this for me, and that for me, but he doesn't do this for me. That is not a good way to do a relationship or be a partner.

You should be thinking, I love this person and I want to DO FOR THEM. Your thinking right now is immature and is the type that leads to cheating because the focus is on you, you are the priority. I would be worried if I was with you. I would be worried that your priority was not about protecting me, even from yourself. The selfish nature that we all have. You may meet a guy who is creative and be very tempted that will only be amplified if your thinking that you are missing out. Again if you are self focused.

So how fix this, you make it work by changing your idea of what a relationship is. The satisfaction in any relationship is in the giving, the doing. Love is an action. If you do that good things will come from that.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

You already know you miss a creative partner. I do understand how sometimes creativity and dependability do not go hand in hand, trust me. But I want the mental stimulation of that creative person too, or I'm just not very interested. 

Just date this guy but don't marry him. You may become bored or you may switch gears some or you may find your creativity remains intact as he's handling a lot of the responsibility. But don't marry him with these doubts. Also, don't know how long you've known him, but it takes a couple of years to see all sides of a person, how they are when their car breaks down or yours does, how they are when you're ill or they are, how they handle bad situations, and mainly how they are when they're not getting their way. So slow down and take your time. Don't move in together and don't mix money at all.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

Thank you - all good questions to consider.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think for you perfection will be very difficult to attain. Highly creative people are not stable as you yourself demonstrate. Normal, routine and settled (stable) is not likely to be satisfying to you. The typical dynamic of the relationship between a highly creative person and a non-creative is the kite and kite flyer dynamic. The creative person is the kite, constantly being blown around by the wind and the other is the kite flyer, holding the string anchoring the kite from spinning out of control. I know a few couples like this I used to be a bit of a kite but have settled down quite a bit over the past 10 years or so. It can work but it can be frustrating for both people. The kite will often feel like they are being held back and the flyer can get exhausted with holding onto the string. The ideal kite flyer is a person who is stable and grounded but also highly adaptable and open to new experiences. So a person who may not be highly creative but appreciates and enjoys the results of the kite's creativity. If that makes any sense at all.


 Yes, thank you. Funny enough, in my marriage, I was the kite flyer, lol - but probably needed my own flyer, too. I am way more stable than I used to be (financially, in my work, in my home life) - but that sense of 'missing' something, or not working toward a shared goal/destiny - is there. I suppose I'm at the point of trying to discern if that's just the natural, constant feeling/drive of a creative which pushes us toward production. Meandering - but sparked some thoughts.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

sokillme said:


> I think you have this idea like a lot of people that your romantic relationship is supposed to fulfill all of your needs. That is just not realistic. Find a girlfriend who you can have a created outlet for. There are many things I am into that my wife isn't. I am very technical and I love stuff like that, I also like to have deep philosophical discussion, and while she can hang for a while eventually she is done.
> 
> As an example on Saturday I was talking to my wife about Silicon Photonic Ring Modulator-based Transceivers (something I was curious about) and she looked at she responded glazed over, "sounds great". Now how silly would it be if I got on here and said, "am I selling myself short because my wife doesn't have the interest in technology and science the way I do?" That is kind of what you are doing.
> 
> ...


 You're not wrong...


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I read everything from you about your partner except the one thing that clinch it all together: "love" You did not even mentioned that you love him or that you are in love with him,.
That's a sign of being in a relationship for all the wrong reasons; consequently you'll never truly be completely happy in this relationship. 

If you are not in love with him, set him free. He deserves to be truly loved.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Don't move in together and don't mix money at all.


I think this above says it all. 

As a consenting adult, you can do whatever you want as long as it is legal and with other consenting adults.

The danger you run into is when you start crossing into legal and financial territories. 

Once you enter into any kind of cohabitation or shared financial topics, then the complexities and consequences ratchet up exponentially. 

As a free spirit, you may crave stability and someone to keep your kite strings anchored to the ground (great analogy BTW) and make sure that you have a roof over your head and have medical insurance. - But you fear and detest restriction and containment. 

As long as you can house, feed and take care of yourself, you may be best off by not being legally or financially committed to or dependent on someone. 

It’s ok to live your own life and not be indebted to someone or committed with someone forever because forever is not one of your strong points or big values.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> You already know you miss a creative partner. I do understand how sometimes creativity and dependability do not go hand in hand, trust me. But I want the mental stimulation of that creative person too, or I'm just not very interested.
> 
> Just date this guy but don't marry him. You may become bored or you may switch gears some or you may find your creativity remains intact as he's handling a lot of the responsibility. But don't marry him with these doubts. Also, don't know how long you've known him, but it takes a couple of years to see all sides of a person, how they are when their car breaks down or yours does, how they are when you're ill or they are, how they handle bad situations, and mainly how they are when they're not getting their way. So slow down and take your time. Don't move in together and don't mix money at all.


Thank you. This is the course I've been following. We've been together for about 5 years. Totally separate finances/houses/children. He is not as financially organized as I am, and we both appreciate not adding these complications to our relationship. I don't know that I would ever marry again. It's not a drive for me at all at this time, and has never been a huge drive. He's no doubt a VERY GOOD man. Calm and tender. He does put a lot of pressure on me (spoken and unspoken) to never leave him, though. He has become completely, sadly unstable when I've tried to take a break, or asked to see other people. I/our relationship makes up the majority of his life interest. So - I can't be cavalier/he won't be accepting of me exploring other options. That is the hard part. I love him and don't want to hurt him. And, I appreciate you responding with some understanding. I'm asking questions because I don't have the answers - other than I know what it feels like to be in a creative partnership - and if you've never experienced that (same as if you've never had children) - you wouldn't know of what I was speaking.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> it is unrealistic to expect one person out of 6 billion to fulfill your every whim and desire.
> 
> If we pick just one person to be with, we will make sacrifices because one person cannot completely fulfill us in all things.
> 
> ...


 Thank you - I appreciate these questions.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

MW22 said:


> He does put a lot of pressure on me (spoken and unspoken) to never leave him, though. He has become completely, sadly unstable when I've tried to take a break, or asked to see other people. I/our relationship makes up the majority of his life interest.


This is more concerning than your original complaint.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

MW22 said:


> Thank you. This is the course I've been following. We've been together for about 5 years. Totally separate finances/houses/children. He is not as financially organized as I am, and we both appreciate not adding these complications to our relationship. I don't know that I would ever marry again. It's not a drive for me at all at this time, and has never been a huge drive. He's no doubt a VERY GOOD man. Calm and tender. He does put a lot of pressure on me (spoken and unspoken) to never leave him, though. He has become completely, sadly unstable when I've tried to take a break, or asked to see other people. I/our relationship makes up the majority of his life interest. So - I can't be cavalier/he won't be accepting of me exploring other options. That is the hard part. I love him and don't want to hurt him. And, I appreciate you responding with some understanding. I'm asking questions because I don't have the answers - other than I know what it feels like to be in a creative partnership - and if you've never experienced that (same as if you've never had children) - you wouldn't know of what I was speaking.


Well, it's a red flag that he isn't good financially. So that's a no-go. It's another red flag when you've tried to get away that he becomes unstable. I don't think you ought to keep your wagon hitched to this guy. I don't truly see the plus side. You'd be better off as you are, independent, than get with a financially and emotionally unstable man. That's a no! You're going to want to date others, so you won't be able to keep this going or even if he begs to stay friends after breakup, he will disrupt your dating life, most likely. 

There are so many people we can love but not live with. It's just a fact of life.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I think this above says it all.
> 
> As a consenting adult, you can do whatever you want as long as it is legal and with other consenting adults.
> 
> ...


I agree. I take care of myself and my children and that is how I feel most confident/comfortable. I rely on things like 'automatic bill pay' and 'automated renewals' for those mundane tasks I've never enjoyed but allow me to keep a nice home I really appreciate your response.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MW22 said:


> Thank you. This is the course I've been following. We've been together for about 5 years. Totally separate finances/houses/children. He is not as financially organized as I am, and we both appreciate not adding these complications to our relationship. I don't know that I would ever marry again. It's not a drive for me at all at this time, and has never been a huge drive. He's no doubt a VERY GOOD man. Calm and tender. He does put a lot of pressure on me (spoken and unspoken) to never leave him, though. He has become completely, sadly unstable when I've tried to take a break, or asked to see other people. I/our relationship makes up the majority of his life interest. So - I can't be cavalier/he won't be accepting of me exploring other options. That is the hard part. I love him and don't want to hurt him. And, I appreciate you responding with some understanding. I'm asking questions because I don't have the answers - other than I know what it feels like to be in a creative partnership - and if you've never experienced that (same as if you've never had children) - you wouldn't know of what I was speaking.


So he became "unstable" when you wanted to see other people? What does that mean? I mean I think lots of people see "take a brake and see other people" as a sign to brake up. Would you expect him to be like, "yeah, sure, I will wait around".

I am unsure why you are equating "creative partnership" to "romantic partnership". I mean you want Sonny and Cher or something. Why is this key to your emotional happiness?

Now maybe what you are really saying is you are just not that into him, but he is nice guy. That makes sense if you are asking to take brakes so you can see other people and explore your options. Are you sure sure if you are the long term relationship type.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, it's a red flag that he isn't good financially. So that's a no-go. It's another red flag when you've tried to get away that he becomes unstable. I don't think you ought to keep your wagon hitched to this guy. I don't truly see the plus side. You'd be better off as you are, independent, than get with a financially and emotionally unstable man. That's a no! You're going to want to date others, so you won't be able to keep this going or even if he begs to stay friends after breakup, he will disrupt your dating life, most likely.
> 
> There are so many people we can love but not live with. It's just a fact of life.


Yes - at times I wonder if I take on too much responsibility (blame myself for 'wanting too much' or being 'too selfish' or 'unable to settle') and if that is clouding my judgment. I mean, how do I know that the reason I keep our lives separate on so many fronts is not because I'm protecting him or myself, but because there's some deep part of me that recognizes a long-term future wouldn't work out - and not just because of my own flaws of which I try to be cognizant. Who knows? We are mysteries unto ourselves...


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, it's a red flag that he isn't good financially. So that's a no-go. It's another red flag when you've tried to get away that he becomes unstable. I don't think you ought to keep your wagon hitched to this guy. I don't truly see the plus side. You'd be better off as you are, independent, than get with a financially and emotionally unstable man. That's a no! You're going to want to date others, so you won't be able to keep this going or even if he begs to stay friends after breakup, he will disrupt your dating life, most likely.
> 
> There are so many people we can love but not live with. It's just a fact of life.


Sigh...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Where is the "tempted" in all this, referencing the title. Is this temptation the "other people" you wanted to start seeing?


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

sokillme said:


> So he became "unstable" when you wanted to see other people? What does that mean? I mean I think lots of people see "take a brake and see other people" as a sign to brake up. Would you expect him to be like, "yeah, sure, I will wait around".
> 
> I am unsure why you are equating "creative partnership" to "romantic partnership". I mean you want Sonny and Cher or something. Why is this key to your emotional happiness?
> 
> Now maybe what you are really saying is you are just not that into him, but he is nice guy. That makes sense if you are asking to take brakes so you can see other people and explore your options. Are you sure sure if you are the long term relationship type.


Unstable means - circling my house, going to therapy, getting on medication. As soon as we got back together, he's back to his easygoing attitude - totally pleasant and not demanding.

I don't know that I am the long-term relationship type, except that I did have a marriage of 15 years with no infidelity - so, that's not nothing.

Unspoken fear is one you've identified - yeah - maybe I'm just not that into him - and maybe I fear the drama of trying to move on. I do love him. That may be difficult to understand. But, I love him for the way he treats his children and family, his emotions, his acceptance of other people and their differences, his very big heart, his weird sense of humor. I just don't know if I can commit to his vision of me being his lifelong partner, and we're so far in it now. I've shared these things with him at times. It has led to a lot of tears, and, since I wasn't breaking up, I dropped the conversations. 

It's very easy to just look at this and say, here's your prescription:
1) break up with him
2) grow up and learn that relationships aren't all you want them to be

I'm exploring these conversations with others because I'm looking for empathy/coping/education/insights how people dig down to discover their priorities, bravely shift when needed, or actively work to be better partners because that's what they find most fulfilling. I don't think there's a concrete right or wrong answer.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MW22 said:


> He does put a lot of pressure on me (spoken and unspoken) to never leave him, though. He has become completely, sadly unstable when I've tried to take a break, or asked to see other people. I/our relationship makes up the majority of his life interest. So - I can't be cavalier/he won't be accepting of me exploring other options.


^^This^^ would scare the heck outta me. He may be kind, tolerant, patient, whatever ... but it sounds to me like there could be some neediness/clinginess involved. I was involved with a similar type man a long time ago. I ended it. I'm very uncomfortable around men like the one you are describing. But that's me, not you.

And, quite frankly, the "sadly unstable" part would have me running for the hills. Doesn't sound like a keeper to me. JMO.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

bobert said:


> This is more concerning than your original complaint.


Thank you. I agree, it is concerning. As adults, I wish we all had the coping skills to manage when things don't go as planned. It can feel like a pretty heavy burden to think that if you leave someone they will, at the very least, put themselves through severe mental anguish for a very long time. And that would be best case scenario.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MW22 said:


> Unstable means - circling my house, going to therapy, getting on medication. As soon as we got back together, he's back to his easygoing attitude - totally pleasant and not demanding.


So he has a total meltdown, which reels you back in. And you get reeled back in because you feel guilty since he's such a great guy. Except for going off the deep end when you try to take a break. Manipulation (him) + Guilt (you) = Bad Relationship Pattern. I don't see this as ending well ...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

MW22 said:


> We've been together for about 5 years. Totally separate finances/houses/children. He is not as financially organized as I am, and we both appreciate not adding these complications to our relationship. I don't know that I would ever marry again. It's not a drive for me at all at this time, and has never been a huge drive. He's no doubt a VERY GOOD man. Calm and tender. He does put a lot of pressure on me (spoken and unspoken) to never leave him, though. He has become completely, sadly unstable when I've tried to take a break, or asked to see other people.


Ok let’s take a step back and look at these statements as being a state of what _“is.”_

As an adult woman, you have been with this guy for 5 years, yet you state you don’t want to merge your home, family and financial lives.

You say you don’t want to marry him.

And you have wanted to see other people and I presume the reason for posting this thread is you want to experience other people and other opportunities now.

That means one of two things - 

- one is he isn’t the right guy for you even though you recognize him as a good person.

Most women want to marry and if they feel they have found “The One” will want to marry, will want to merge homes, families and finances, and they have no desire to see other people.......even if the man they are with is a horrible person and treats them badly.

- or it means that you simply are not the kind of person that wants to be tied down to one person in a traditional marriage and home life (the Lynrd Skynrd song “Freebird” is playing in my head right now)

You may simply not be traditional marriage material. I don’t mean that as a bad thing in anyway, it is just your personal nomenclature. 

Either way, you can’t keep him hanging on and keep him investing himself into an imaginary relationship that can never be for him. 

You either need to compassionately break up with him or sing “Freebird” him. The lyrics are only a minute or so, you don’t have to do the 10 minutes of instrumental. 

You can make a clean break yourself or declare your independence and that you will be pursuing your own other interests which will include other men and he can decide if he wants to be one of your spinning plates or if he wants to move on to find someone that also wants the same level of investment and commitment.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> ^^This^^ would scare the heck outta me. He may be kind, tolerant, patient, whatever ... but it sounds to me like there could be some neediness/clinginess involved. I was involved with a similar type man a long time ago. I ended it. I'm very uncomfortable around men like the one you are describing. But that's me, not you.
> 
> And, quite frankly, the "sadly unstable" part would have me running for the hills. Doesn't sound like a keeper to me. JMO.


Thank you. To have someone place all their happiness in you...well, it's not balanced.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MW22 said:


> Unstable means - circling my house, going to therapy, getting on medication. As soon as we got back together, he's back to his easygoing attitude - totally pleasant and not demanding.


So he was understandably sad and upset when you broke up with him to pursue other options. That doesn't seem to me like he was unstable. I mean did he try to commit suicide or something? When you say circling your house do you mean stalking you? How long did that go on? How did you break up? Why did you get back together?



MW22 said:


> I don't know that I am the long-term relationship type, except that I did have a marriage of 15 years with no infidelity - so, that's not nothing.


If this is not to personal why did that marriage end?



MW22 said:


> Unspoken fear is one you've identified - yeah - maybe I'm just not that into him - and maybe I fear the drama of trying to move on. I do love him. That may be difficult to understand. But, I love him for the way he treats his children and family, his emotions, his acceptance of other people and their differences, his very big heart, his weird sense of humor. I just don't know if I can commit to his vision of me being his lifelong partner, and we're so far in it now. I've shared these things with him at times. It has led to a lot of tears, and, since I wasn't breaking up, I dropped the conversations.


Well it's a mistake to stay in a relationship because he will be sad when you break up. Look he may be very sad but no one is irreplaceable. He will recover and his life will go on. It's also a mistake to stay in a relationship for fear of being stalked. That is a very bad thing. 



MW22 said:


> It's very easy to just look at this and say, here's your prescription:
> 1) break up with him
> 2) grow up and learn that relationships aren't all you want them to be
> 
> I'm exploring these conversations with others because I'm looking for empathy/coping/education/insights how people dig down to discover their priorities, bravely shift when needed, or actively work to be better partners because that's what they find most fulfilling. I don't think there's a concrete right or wrong answer.


Maybe it's very easy because it's wise advice. I mean you can also change your perspective. Again love is a verb, you can open yourself up to loving him, and you can try to find the things that are missing from platonic friendships but I would be careful who that is and generally stay with people where there are no chances you will be tempted.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> So he has a total meltdown, which reels you back in. And you get reeled back in because you feel guilty since he's such a great guy. Except for going off the deep end when you try to take a break. Manipulation (him) + Guilt (you) = Bad Relationship Pattern. I don't see this as ending well ...


I like the way you break it down


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

MW22 said:


> Yes - at times I wonder if I take on too much responsibility (blame myself for 'wanting too much' or being 'too selfish' or 'unable to settle') and if that is clouding my judgment. I mean, how do I know that the reason I keep our lives separate on so many fronts is not because I'm protecting him or myself, but because there's some deep part of me that recognizes a long-term future wouldn't work out - and not just because of my own flaws of which I try to be cognizant. Who knows? We are mysteries unto ourselves...


I'm someone who like everyone else tried to match myself up with a person thinking that I could get the right fit one day, but by the time I was a little more mature in my forties and had time to look back at my life, I personally realized I was never cut out for domesticity and realized that the one guy who wasn't creative but was on the same kind of path as I was that I was serious about, I would have been bored with the lifestyle with him after a while. I worked with him for a long time and I still know him decades later. It's just the way I am. It's my own dichotomy. Someone dependable enough that I would consider sharing a life with and trusting with my life just wasn't as stimulating as the creative guys who I always knew better than to marry.
You learn something at every turn about yourself.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Ok let’s take a step back and look at these statements as being a state of what _“is.”_
> 
> As an adult woman, you have been with this guy for 5 years, yet you state you don’t want to merge your home, family and financial lives.
> 
> ...


OMG - this may just be the best answer, ever - LOL! And not just because it could involve a concert and a backdrop!! (honestly, thanks for injecting some levity.)


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

MW22 said:


> Unstable means - circling my house, going to therapy, getting on medication. As soon as we got back together, he's back to his easygoing attitude - totally pleasant and not demanding.
> 
> I don't know that I am the long-term relationship type, except that I did have a marriage of 15 years with no infidelity - so, that's not nothing.
> 
> ...


Circling your house is definitely not acceptable. That's stalking. That's a big red flag. The mentality of people who do that is the longer the investment they have in the person they're focused on, the more nuts they get if that person tries to leave. Maybe you should start introducing him to some ladies and get him refocused because honestly if you get someone who's stalkerish, sometimes that's the only way to get out from under them.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm someone who like everyone else tried to match myself up with a person thinking that I could get the right fit one day, but by the time I was a little more mature in my forties and had time to look back at my life, I personally realized I was never cut out for domesticity and realized that the one guy who wasn't creative but was on the same kind of path as I was that I was serious about, I would have been bored with the lifestyle with him after a while. I worked with him for a long time and I still know him decades later. It's just the way I am. It's my own dichotomy. Someone dependable enough that I would consider sharing a life with and trusting with my life just wasn't as stimulating as the creative guys who I always knew better than to marry.
> You learn something at every turn about yourself.


I relate to this. Especially having been married, having my children, having lived as a wife for so long - don't feel like I missed out on anything.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

It's just all up to you what path you take next.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Circling your house is definitely not acceptable. That's stalking. That's a big red flag. The mentality of people who do that is the longer the investment they have in the person they're focused on, the more nuts they get if that person tries to leave. Maybe you should start introducing him to some ladies and get him refocused because honestly if you get someone who's stalkerish, sometimes that's the only way to get out from under them.


Right - that goes beyond acceptable. I'm super sensitive to this and anything that comes close to major depression/obsessiveness/suicidality because of some previous life experiences. So - I know that - people can hurt themselves. Stalk people. And, be so caught up in blame they won't recognize/heal. This was a very scary surprise when it happened and not something I would have expected from his personality, and now, of course I'm burned by it, because I've had stalkers/friends who've committed suicide, etc.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> So he was understandably sad and upset when you broke up with him to pursue other options. That doesn't seem to me like he was unstable. I mean did he try to commit suicide or something? When you say circling your house do you mean stalking you? How long did that go on? How did you break up? Why did you get back together?


I disagree that this is just routine sadness after a break up. 

I do see it as maladaptive and unhealthy. Not only is it maladaptive, but stalking is a crime.

I also see this as manipulating and since it has worked at keeping her in the relationship before, then he will most likely double down on his efforts next time.

My wife’s ex did this crap and she had enabled it in the past.

She would dump him and start seeing other guys and he would follow and stalk her and harass them until she’d take him back. Rinse and repeat and each time with higher escalation. 

I called the cops on him and filed reports on him a couple times and then finally snapped and chased out after him through town when I caught him driving by my house for the umpteeth time. It wasn’t until I chased him to a train crossing and blocked him in and offered him to step out of car and settle it the old fashioned way before he backed off. 

It’s manipulation and they do it as long as it accomplishes them something and they don’t stop until they experience consequences from their actions.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I disagree that this is just routine sadness after a break up.
> 
> I do see it as maladaptive and unhealthy. Not only is it maladaptive, but stalking is a crime.
> 
> ...


I agree if it was truly stalking.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's just all up to you what path you take next.


I appreciate all your comments.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MW22 said:


> Right - that goes beyond acceptable. I'm super sensitive to this and anything that comes close to major depression/obsessiveness/suicidality because of some previous life experiences. So - I know that - people can hurt themselves. Stalk people. And, be so caught up in blame they won't recognize/heal. This was a very scary surprise when it happened and not something I would have expected from his personality, and now, of course I'm burned by it, because I've had stalkers/friends who've committed suicide, etc.


So if he as doing all that, that is not your responsibility. Presumably when you started dating him he was aware that there was no guarantees, and you never made vows. You are well within your rights to end the relationship, and you shouldn't do so because you are afraid, again it's not your responsibility. 

You have stalker friends who stalked you and then committed suicide or stalked someone else or what?


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I disagree that this is just routine sadness after a break up.
> 
> I do see it as maladaptive and unhealthy. Not only is it maladaptive, but stalking is a crime.
> 
> ...


after this happened, he told me that he went through a cycle like this with his ex-wife after they divorced. She stalked him/slashed his tires/sent abusive texts, etc. - he also stalked her, though, and engaged in the texting. You know - just writing that somehow makes me feel better. Like - it's not personal (based on how much he loves me/misses me) - it's a disordered way of behaving that has less to do with how he feels about me.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I disagree that this is just routine sadness after a break up.
> 
> I do see it as maladaptive and unhealthy. Not only is it maladaptive, but stalking is a crime.
> 
> ...


Good for you.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

sokillme said:


> So if he as doing all that, that is not your responsibility. Presumably when you started dating him he was aware that there was no guarantees, and you never made vows. You are well within your rights to end the relationship, and you shouldn't do so because you are afraid, again it's not your responsibility.
> 
> You have stalker friends who stalked you and then committed suicide or stalked someone else or what?


I have had a stranger stalker (male), and a former friend who became a stalker (female). I've also had the unfortunate experience of a few friends who've committed suicide over the years for different reasons, some of which included heartbreak.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

MW22 said:


> I don't know that I am the long-term relationship type,
> 
> Unspoken fear is one you've identified - yeah - maybe I'm just not that into him - and maybe I fear the drama of trying to move on. I do love him. That may be difficult to understand. But, I love him for the way he treats his children and family, his emotions, his acceptance of other people and their differences, his very big heart, his weird sense of humor. I just don't know if I can commit to his vision of me being his lifelong partner, and we're so far in it now. I've shared these things with him at times. It has led to a lot of tears, and, since I wasn't breaking up, I dropped the conversations.
> 
> ...


No, there are other options. 

You’ve actually expressed your feelings and intents on the matter well above. 

Print off what I quoted above and hand it to along with telling him that you do not envision being in an exclusive, traditional relationship with him going forward, including seeing other men. 

Explain you understand that he may not accept this and that he may not with continue seeing you under these conditions but make it clear that this is how it will be going forward. 

If you don’t want to dump him and you don’t want to be the one that drops the ax, then you can state your ground rules and intentions and he has the option of whether to accept those conditions or move on, that choice can be his. 

However in light of his reactions to previous attempts to open the relationship, I would most strongly deplore you to nip that in the bud right from the get-go and that any stalking or harassment from him towards you or any of the other men will result in immediate legal action and will not be tolerated at all. 

He either plays nice and by your rules or he can move on. No hard feelings on your end.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

To everyone,

Thanks so much for all your comments and insights. This thread took some interesting turns and brought up things under the surface I prefer to avoid. Very helpful.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

MW22 said:


> I have had a stranger stalker (male), and a former friend who became a stalker (female). I've also had the unfortunate experience of a few friends who've committed suicide over the years for different reasons, some of which included heartbreak.


You are not responsible for other people’s criminal acts or mental heath. 

You can be compassionate and respectful of their feelings, but you have no obligation to capitulate to their criminal acts nor are you responsible for their mental health.

If they commit stalking or harassment, report them to the authorities each and every time and provide witness to their actions.

If they contact you stating suicidal ideation then call 911 and report a suicidal party and provide statement to what they said so that they can receive the emergency help needed to save their live. 

That is your role as a citizen. Everything else is on them.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In case you haven’t noticed, I have zero tolerance for the manipulation of stalking and harassment. 

The 3rd time I called the police on my wife’s ex, I told them that the next time he came with my air space that I was going to take matters into my own hands and deal with it my way and that my intent would be to beat and harm him.

That may seem like a crazy and counterproductive thing to say to police, however I followed that up with that if charges were filed against me, that my defense strategy would be to present my previous reports filed against him and that I had in fact informed the police that the next time I would be taking matters into own hands and that they were aware that a physical confrontation would be taking place and that they themselves would be called as witnesses in my own defense. 

They gave him a pretty good shake down and warned him I was close to the edge and that they may not be able to prevent me from I may do.

The very next day he decided to test the waters and drove by my house again and I took out after him and got him blocked in by the train. 

He wouldn’t come out of the car and I never saw him again.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MW22 said:


> I have had a stranger stalker (male), and a former friend who became a stalker (female). I've also had the unfortunate experience of a few friends who've committed suicide over the years for different reasons, some of which included heartbreak.


This seems usual, could be a pattern, maybe you should explore this more.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> In case you haven’t noticed, I have zero tolerance for the manipulation of stalking and harassment.
> 
> The 3rd time I called the police on my wife’s ex, I told them that the next time he came with my air space that I was going to take matters into my own hands and deal with it my way and that my intent would be to bat and harm him.
> 
> ...


Pretty scary. My experience with both stalkers has been - a whole **** ton of reports/papers filed with the police. I was able to take a print-out of messages and proved that one of them had created multiple false profiles to contact me, which then caused the police to finally take that - along with the rest of the file - to the stalker's house, which put an end, at least, to certain avenues of harassment. I think the common belief is that stalkers don't USUALLY get violent, so we're just supposed to do no contact and hope they go away. 25 years later on the male stalker who now lives in Turkey, and I'd say - yeah - they don't just go away. The other one (female) continues to move, and now doesn't write me directly, but will contact friends/acquaintances and write to them. AWFUL.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

sokillme said:


> This seems usual, could be a pattern, maybe you should explore this more.


I get what you're trying to say here... and it's kinda along the lines of that people stalking me might be something I'm responsible for...but NO. I may be kind to strangers, or even people who are mentally hurting, but that doesn't mean I deserve to be stalked.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MW22 said:


> I get what you're trying to say here... and it's kinda along the lines of that people stalking me might be something I'm responsible for...but NO. I may be kind to strangers, or even people who are mentally hurting, but that doesn't mean I deserve to be stalked.


No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is maybe it's something about the type of person that has the propensity to stalk that you are subconsciously attracted to? People follow patterns, and sometimes they are not even aware they are doing it. Sometimes they my have and unhealthy attraction to a type of person that might not be healthy for them because some of the problematic behavior was normalized for them in their childhood for instance.

Maybe the intensity of someone who has the disposition to stalk might be something that is attractive to you in the beginning of the relationship. Maybe you are a white knight. Maybe none of this is true, I don't know. All I am saying is this seems to happen often to you and maybe you should look into it.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

sokillme said:


> No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is maybe it's something about the type of person that has the propensity to stalk that you are subconsciously attracted to? People follow patterns, and sometimes they are not even aware they are doing it. Sometimes they my have and unhealthy attraction to a type of person that might not be healthy for them because some of the problematic behavior was normalized for them in their childhood for instance.
> 
> Maybe the intensity of someone who has the disposition to stalk might be something that is attractive to you in the beginning of the relationship. Maybe you are a white knight. Maybe none of this is true, I don't know. All I am saying is this seems to happen often to you and maybe you should look into it.


well - let's just say the stranger is an outlier...guess he saw me smiling and then just envisioned an entire life around that...not much to be helped there. with the others, yes - i'm aware that i've been drawn to more creative (potentially unstable) people in the past, hence the start of this thread- recognizing that sometimes those personalities may also struggle with mental health. so - i have definitely addressed this in the realm of friendships. i was surprised when it came up in my relationship because i had sort of classified him as highly stable. but - i suppose there's an emotionally needy component there i may have overlooked or even appreciated as a part of what comes across as thoughtfulness...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I just wanted to share something that came to mind ...perhaps to offer a reframed view of being creative and artistic.
It's something musician Jeff Buckley said in an interview.

'Everybody knows what it's like to create an artistic moment, a so-called artistic moment, because it's really just heightened humanism, this is just heightened human language. If you've spent a night making love, you know exactly what it means to strip your ego down, where you are there, expressing yourself, wordlessly, collaborating on a moment that has an energy about it that is replenishing or even completely inspirational in a way that you could never imagine. And that's the way art really is. Or if you've raised a child, that's an artistic venture. You've solved problems, you've expressed yourself to the kid, you feed your soul to the kid - and they get you. And that's art. That's an artistic moment. And everybody has done it. And everybody will do it. It's not just musicians.'


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MW22 said:


> This seems to cycle up consistently/intensely for me about 2x a year.


Sorry if I've missed this - why do you think this is a biannual cycle?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

So I'm reading the original post, and the follow-ups, and one thought comes to mind that hasn't yet been brought up.

Isn't this guy the perfect example of a Plan B?

Does he realize that he's Plan B? Something you wish you could settle for but desire something different. 

There may be a type of person who doesn't mind being Plan B. Where love is concerned, what type of person would that be? If the guy doesn't understand that he is Plan B, it needs to be explained to him. If he has had that figured out all along, you need to figure out why he'd be OK with that, living with someone who lusts (not necessarily sexually) for something else, someone else.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I reflected on @Rob_1 noting that 'love' hadn't been mentioned.

And then the follow up about his threats around not wanting you to leave. That doesn't indicate 'love' to me, either.


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## So Married (Dec 18, 2020)

If you are looking for a reason to leave, you really should just go.

If you really want to find ways to make it work, and you really love each other, you can find ways. For one thing, you can find other creative outlets (my husband isn't the creative type either). You can also try learning new things together. It helps increase your bond, sparks their creativity a bit, and keeps things interesting.

Learn a new language or take a dance class or cooking class together. Read the same book and then have discussions about it. Home improvement stores offer classes for painting and decorating. Do karaoke, haha.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

heartsbeating said:


> I just wanted to share something that came to mind ...perhaps to offer a reframed view of being creative and artistic.
> It's something musician Jeff Buckley said in an interview.
> 
> 'Everybody knows what it's like to create an artistic moment, a so-called artistic moment, because it's really just heightened humanism, this is just heightened human language. If you've spent a night making love, you know exactly what it means to strip your ego down, where you are there, expressing yourself, wordlessly, collaborating on a moment that has an energy about it that is replenishing or even completely inspirational in a way that you could never imagine. And that's the way art really is. Or if you've raised a child, that's an artistic venture. You've solved problems, you've expressed yourself to the kid, you feed your soul to the kid - and they get you. And that's art. That's an artistic moment. And everybody has done it. And everybody will do it. It's not just musicians.'


 That is such an awesome quote. Thank you for sharing.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

heartsbeating said:


> Sorry if I've missed this - why do you think this is a biannual cycle?


I don't know. Just looking back, appears to be connected to introspective seasons.


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## MW22 (Feb 9, 2021)

Casual Observer said:


> So I'm reading the original post, and the follow-ups, and one thought comes to mind that hasn't yet been brought up.
> 
> Isn't this guy the perfect example of a Plan B?
> 
> ...


you've definitely hit on something. even though nobody knows us here, i'd be lying if i said i don't feel guilty/shame for even discussing any aspect of his personality here, without his consent. 
ultimately, it comes down to my own courage. i've tried to leave before, but his strong emotional response, tears, words, refusal to accept has brought me back. and, of course, we have a very solid foundation of kindness and comfort and physical compatibility. truth is, he IS fine with less. he's heard me express much of this. it's just a question if i'm fine with it. many find that selfish, but that is one major difference between the two of us - i'm always on the lookout for what will grow, inspire, engage/motivate me to do/be more (very earthly) - he is placid and accepts/reacts to what is in the moment. could be we are healthy counterparts. could be i'm in the wrong relationship.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

You’re unhappy with things as they are enough to be posting here. 

If you have already tried to leave and stayed because the guy gets unhinged that doesn’t really sound good for you.


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