# 3 years and assistance on boundaries



## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Hi, 

first post here but I have lurked for a good while 

I have had a previous 11 year (5 married) relationship lead to D.
Infidelity on a grand scale, over a short period by my wife at the time.

My second main relationship (me 35 partner 26), has been going for 3 years at this point and generally is actually great for both! We have discussed marriage and up until a few months* K* (partner) was very eager and actually excited, not so much past 6 months as I think she guesses I have not committed. 

We have had a lot happen, death on my side of the family, dogs passing, moved house and business strain from raising the finances. This has actually all stopped. I work now very moderate hours and tend to be far fresher if that is the correct way of describing a non zombie state! Not rich, but no concerns.

Early in the relationship we had the boundary talk. Boundaries were being crossed in my view, beyond what I can can comfortably accept. Texting and flirting etc. I explained and have re enforced jovially in the years that to me trust is absolutely paramount. I do not care about the act of guys hitting on LTR or wife etc, it is how it is handled that matters. So basically attention whoring is not cool, we are not single but committed. All seemed great and I have been absolutely happy:smthumbup:

Until...............The past month. We had a conversation that I perhaps handled badly, in that I had felt K attraction was reducing and that little effort for sex life was being placed forward. I must admit that this really upset her, as she was "*blissfully happy*" Although I would suggest more comfortable...I earn the cash but both work, K pulls extra round the house etc to help me so works great typically.

Now we usually discuss everything, we talk about our days work, jovial chat about customers and even weirdo's etc hitting on her. 

It did take the first 9 months of the relationship to apparently consider that men complementing legs, hair and lipstick are not interested in the shade and brand really (come on!).

_*As is typical all the discussions and happenings except .....the more important ones, expect..... the ones that she may have a crush on and discuss inappropriately with her (toxic) friend. *_(said friend has had 2 affairs at age 26 from husband, he does not know)

Over the past couple weeks communication has broken down and she has become ****y for a want of better words and also losing respect. I am sure reduced intimate bond is leading to this and I understand my role in this. I have tit for tatted to no real constructive purpose.

But she failed to mention any of the above, including a customer who is a friend of her toxic friend, asking her on a date without my knowledge. Friend encouraging. 

I only found out reading texts today and the time line matches an argument when she was provocative.

She says she loves me and respects me and also that she sexually desires me...just that it has reduced^^

We have shared accounts and passwords and no issue showing or letting me use phone, as she is aware of the boundaries that we agreed, as am I.

The last argument a few days ago was about.....looking at messages on her phone:scratchhead: from friends as she calls them. She had been discussing our relationship negatively with outsiders (for perspective on attraction after 3 years). She said that they think that we should do what we want and want makes us individually happy and if we stay together, then it was meant to be, if not, not. And that she should do lots on her own.

The issue is I have not approached regarding this date crap from her _*"cute guy"*_ customer. She did reply _*"No not really as it would be leading him on"*_

But still.

She is going to a boxing match with toxic friend in a month and I have noted gaps in texts to her and a few phone calls when I am not around specifically.

Question is, how do I enforce my boundaries? Only reading the shades of grey can I see an issue. 

I am pissed at the lack of respect from her friend that I have never met....but you know I will live!

I feel aggrieved and feel the reply should have been No I am with my partner, please do not ask again, afterall it was in text so easy to communicate. 

I know the "cute guy" goes by the bank to specifically see her, I am a bloke and know the type of crap we try!

I feel as though after my wife this type of thing affects me considerably, but think deep down it should not....as our life friend and sexual partner should always have each others backs, I know rose tinted:lol:

Any advice as my adrenaline is at 10/10 and I am not a happy chap, but remain jovial. 

Posts long....if you made it help appreciated.
S


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

StevenD79 said:


> Question is, how do I enforce my boundaries?
> 
> 
> *First, remember that boundaries are the steps you take to protect yourself. They are NOT steps you take to make others do what you want them to. *
> ...


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Kathy Batesel

Thank-you for reminding me that the boundaries are mine and the situation is mine to control by accepting or removing myself from it. I had lost sight, likely due to anger. 

I guess it annoys me that you sit down and state how you feel about such things and it goes to smoke! To straight laced for my own good. I know I have faults, but not catastrophic. I don't want to be a damn swinger:lol:

My only reservation is that this lady has been fantastic for 35 months. But past history has taught me that a single unacceptable choice by a partner in a lifetime is often to much. 

I kinda question who people are, how do you know. And then I realise you never can.

Time to pull my big boy pants on again. In my mind I am absolutely prepared to call it a day and go no contact unless I can be absolutely reassured that there has been an oversight or misunderstanding. I would even have accepted that she was insecure more than trying to line one up for back up. I just don't respond well to threats I guess and I am in the corner.

Just re -ead ^^^ it sounds pathetic " oversight " ha ha. I know what must be done. Any other takers before I perform an irreversible speech?

S


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

StevenD79 said:


> Kathy Batesel
> 
> I guess it annoys me that you sit down and state how you feel about such things and it goes to smoke!
> 
> My only reservation is that this lady has been fantastic for 35 months.


Yes, it's hard to accept that another person (especially someone we care about) thinks so little of us that they just brush it off. However, if this toxic friend has been around for three years, I'd question whether your lady has really been "fantastic."


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

I would have asked her to drop toxic friend as a friend and this would have been part of the boundaries agreement. This "friend", who is a serial cheater with no morals, clearly encourages her to not only break or shatter boundaries, but to blatantly cheat! She needs to be kicked to the curb.

As for your gf, you really need to be sure that she is long term marriage material before going down the marriage path. Statements like the only reason she didn't say yes to the date request from a guy she calls cute is that she would be leading him on??? Instead of I am crazy about my fiancé and this scumbag doesn't seem to get it!

Having a toxic friend is one thing, but your gf doesn't sound like she will need a lot of convincing! She is borderline at the moment and you need to not only be careful/extra vigilant but also start looking at your options going forward.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

manfromlamancha

Thanks, food for thought.

Now the toxic friend has only been in the picture for say 6 months. She was a work friend, initially they did not get on, or so I am told. Yea she actually tried to act as a go between to arrange. 

I felt like calling her husband and letting get a reality check, but I am honestly unsure that he has a set. 

The girl has been genuinely straight with me until this, and I am quick with trust but check it out.

My gut says you are right and she is on the edge. At the end of the day, a slightly rougher spell or reduced intimacy does not equate to pulling this crap. She lacks the type of moral compass that I seek. 

I guess I don't need to say it, but it hurts a smidge.

Boundaries are pointless unless I stick to them.

I was concerned that due to history, I was over reacting.

S


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Off-topic, but the PEA chemicals that made you guys so happy together are now starting to wear off - thus the reduction in sex, etc. To keep that going, you have to keep 'dating' her, taking her to new places, trying new foods, doing new things. Are you?


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## damagedgoods1 (Nov 8, 2013)

StevenD79 said:


> Hi,
> We have discussed marriage and up until a few months* K* (partner) was very eager and actually excited, not so much past 6 months as I think she guesses I have not committed.
> S


Can you please clarify on your above statement, specifically, "I thinks she guesses I have not committed."

I agree with the other respondents here in that boundaries are you own as to what is acceptable (or unacceptable) to you AND that this toxic friend is trouble.

What is YOUR expectation vs. HER expectation on a timeline to get married? Yes, I fully agree she has to be someone you can trust completely before you get married, but is she starting to wonder if you are "stringing her along" about marriage?

You definitely need to talk to her and set some expectations in addition to reinforcing your boundaries.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Turnera

In honesty I had lost my way slightly. Not for long but not my A game.

I admit this now, and did to my partner. 

No excuse, but to build a better life and get a roof over our heads I was working in my business solidly upto 18 hours a day. 

I always loved her, always kissed and hugged. Always told her my desire and love, in equal amounts to that being received. That is why I settled the hours to be back early and to start doing the relationship.

We were aware that it would be a problem and set about a path of recovery, but this literally jumped on me as I was starting. Booked a break and started getting back in shape and going out etc. timing adds to my sour mood on the subject.

If I walk in tonight and she actually comes forward and asked my opinion or how to deal with it etc...then that would be a small step. But lets be honest...she knows how to deal with it. The same as i do when it arises.

s


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

When you say there's gaps in her communication with her friend, do you mean in what you see on the phone? Don't suppose you have access to her bill? My thought is that texts or calls could be deleted from her logs. For that matter, there's about 57 thousand apps that can allow communication that you may not see easily...

How often do you two go out on a date? Just the two of you, doing something fun. Or group dates, with her friends? With your age difference, you run a significant risk of being left out of her social circle. Everyone else being young and cool and just wanting to have fun, and you're focused on being professional and boring. No offence intended... 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

damagedgoods1 said:


> Can you please clarify on your above statement, specifically, "I thinks she guesses I have not committed."
> 
> I agree with the other respondents here in that boundaries are you own as to what is acceptable (or unacceptable) to you AND that this toxic friend is trouble.
> 
> ...


Damagedgoods1

I think you are spot on. And i agree entirely on the boundary issues being at my feet. It feels better to be reminded of that. I feel i have regained control of myself.

We had a chat a two months back and i told her in no uncertain terms that i intended to marry, i do not see the point of a ltr without it progressing. She did not seem reassured, and yet i did try and have never given any reason to doubt me or to not stand my word at any point. We trying for children.

When we first met, she was extremely low confidence and lacked esteem. She is now a fantastic young women, very strong on the outer edge, but i have always considered her fragile to a certain extent and harboured all attempts for her to grow personally.

In fairness she has said that i have done the above and a whole lot more.
" Given me a fantastic and happy life"
" Assisted me find confidence and strength"
etc.

I always consider myself sensitive, but a little "thick" and one sided. Admitting it. I am also a harder character, emotional more discreet and personal i suppose, but also more experienced in general. 

But then i asked only trust and no lies. By omission or otherwise.

A little confused, but feeling more relaxed strangely.

S


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

PBear said:


> When you say there's gaps in her communication with her friend, do you mean in what you see on the phone? Don't suppose you have access to her bill? My thought is that texts or calls could be deleted from her logs. For that matter, there's about 57 thousand apps that can allow communication that you may not see easily...
> 
> How often do you two go out on a date? Just the two of you, doing something fun. Or group dates, with her friends? With your age difference, you run a significant risk of being left out of her social circle. Everyone else being young and cool and just wanting to have fun, and you're focused on being professional and boring. No offence intended...
> 
> ...


Cheers Pbear

feel better now!!

I get it i really do 

She was never a party girl and never stopped out past 11! In seriousness, i am more of a partyer. She hates typical younger places etc!

In fairness she is very sheltered by comparison to my past and i actively encourage her to go out with friends and to any events, but generally they have no cash, she never had many friends. The girls she knows are settled down or with children. before me a lot of her female and male "friends" if not 90% were my age or a lot older.

I do take on the fun element though and accept that is crucial. I have a lot of responsibilities i guess and probably sucks the fun out of me!

I dunno maybe she wants that now, but from discussions i don't think she knows quite what she wants and wants to do?

S


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

*


PBear said:



When you say there's gaps in her communication with her friend, do you mean in what you see on the phone? Don't suppose you have access to her bill? My thought is that texts or calls could be deleted from her logs. For that matter, there's about 57 thousand apps that can allow communication that you may not see easily...

Click to expand...

*


PBear said:


> How often do you two go out on a date? Just the two of you, doing something fun. Or group dates, with her friends? With your age difference, you run a significant risk of being left out of her social circle. Everyone else being young and cool and just wanting to have fun, and you're focused on being professional and boring. No offence intended...
> 
> C
> 
> ...


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

What is YOUR expectation vs. HER expectation on a timeline to get married? Yes, I fully agree she has to be someone you can trust completely before you get married, but is she starting to wonder if you are "stringing her along" about marriage?

*In response i would say up until this, i would actually marry straight away and she would have wanted it yesterday. I am more pragmatic and just put a lot of cash down for the house. As soon as the balance recovered, or even if not, just straight away on the fly and back it with a great honeymoon etc*


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The biggest problem I see is the age difference. Especially since she has low self esteem. She selected a dad. Someone to make things safe for her in her early 20s. Now that she's maturing and feeling safer about her own decisions, as is typical, she 'needs' you less so the initial attraction you held is disappearing. You'd need to find a way to meet her at this new junction in her life, be what she wants now, as opposed to 3 years ago. Else, she'll decide she's wasted her youth, so to speak, on you and now needs to 'experience life' on her own. Quite common, actually.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Tunera thanks

very obvious now that you point it out!

In fairness if it is so, I will not hold her "back".

But It may be an opportunity for something different, for me with her also.

S


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Great time to ask her to fill out the LB and EN questionnaires, and you do the same, and share them.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Turnera

Can you point me to them please, heads a little everywhere now. You have actually struck a chord to my situation and I am gaining clarity rather rapidly. 

Genuinely I have been looking in the wrong direction in part.

Still have a feeling where this ends up, but hey I feel better for the understanding.

We will do the questionnaires and have a chat this evening.

Still in the theme though, is the toxic friend and boundary. Even if I feel we can grow in the correct direction, there is that issue. But I see how it can be linked now.

S


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Love Busters Questionnaire
Emotional Needs Questionnaire

Bottom line, you have to be what gives her the most pleasure, as you can't make her choose you. If she's starting to feel like she can get better 'out there' you would have to figure out what it is she's now looking for and decide if you are that. If it would require you changing yourself (act younger, etc.), you may decide it's time to split.

If she decides you are that thing for her, the toxic friend won't matter.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I think we've got way too much speculation going on here. 

Toxic friend is toxic. That is not speculation. You *know* it's hurting your relationship.

Your boundaries are for your own safety, not for manipulation. 

You told her that you didn't see the point of a LTR if not for marriage, but did not imply to her that you're planning to marry her. 

Toxic friend has been around for six months. 

The chemical ****tail of early love is now gone.

Beyond this, you'd have to ask HER to understand WHY she's behaving as she is. Could it be that she's withdrawing? Sure. It could also be that you're looking for excuses not to commit. 

I think you're scarily close to talking yourself out of a relationship that seems to have developed these problems recently, which is fine if that's what you want, but I do hope you'll consider whether this is a bump in the road first.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

KathyBatesel said:


> I think we've got way too much speculation going on here.
> 
> Toxic friend is toxic. That is not speculation. You *know* it's hurting your relationship.
> 
> ...


KathyBatesel,

Thank-you for the succinct points. Over the course of posting here and then a discussion last night I have started to really see the wheat from the chaf!

I have told the woman in no uncertain terms that I want to marry her. That we are looking at starting a family and that is a seriousness commitment to me. I did re affirm this morning, those points. And I had forgotten that she had been left hi and dry before by a guy and that seemed to play on her mind. But in my case actions would speak louder than words perhaps?

When I looked at the texts again (and after speaking to you guys). I noted that she regularly goofs with that friend. But I also thought well if you do this in text, what have you talked of when giggling with a little wine etc. The friend had commented that they would look good together etc to encourage also. 

When I asked her for a talk. She did not come right out with it, but did have an ..oh poop caught in the headlights look.. It is a statement that she did say no to the O/M. She claims that she told the friend that she is with her partner and not to cause trouble. But hey.... when you tell a lie by omission the trust has been reduced in the words. I have said to her that my boundaries are mine and that if she views life and our ideals are different, then that is cool. Just say so openly and fairly. But she claims she should have told me and is very sorry. Also says that there is no way that she wants to spilt up. 

Incidentally the friend replied to her..."he does not care if you are with somebody" In honesty I had a quick peep at his profile online and really he is right, he has nothing to lose and that is not a compliment to the guy, he did not have the balls to ask her directly either. Same age as me and very unlikely to provide anything other than the newness factor. 

What remains is how she declined not that she did. It plays on my mind that we hit a rocky patch and her uncertainty leads her away from me not towards a solution together. 

Here boundaries are talked about a lot, I observe and enforce by own when around other women as I know what can so easily happen. In the outside world, I find few even understand the need or acknowledge a requirement, which perhaps equates to the statistics

My partners boundaries are usually very solid, although enforcing is not as straight as perhaps me, but that is as she is not confident to say no, or indeed yes, to people without concern or reason. I have learnt to say no or yes when and as I see fit, irrespective of others over time and that transgresses into personal life.

I will see if I can get her to open more as to the why.

S


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Turnera

I have taken a look and mentioned it and she is happy to do them tonight  

Excited actually to see if we get a better and closer connection for the future.

I must admit that I am still concerned and if she had taken a phone number etc it would not me a discussion, which was my original conflict. 

Of alarm was that she offered not to go to the event and not to deal with her "friend" etc....BUT if that's what I wanted and it would make me feel better.

I feel very uneasy telling somebody to physically do anything. So I won't. Any thoughts on that aspect?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

StevenD79 said:


> It plays on my mind that we hit a rocky patch and her uncertainty leads her away from me not towards a solution together.


Honestly, Steven, this is SO SO COMMON, you have no idea. It's basic psychology, that once a relationship becomes mundane, the 'new' stuff seems more exciting, no matter how great a person you are, no matter how high of morals you have. Lots of us flirt with danger; it's built into our brains. What matters is that she didn't go there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

StevenD79 said:


> Here boundaries are talked about a lot, I observe and enforce by own when around other women as I know what can so easily happen.
> 
> My partner's boundaries are usually very solid, although enforcing is not as straight as perhaps me, but that is as she is not confident to say no, or indeed yes, to people without concern or reason.


Again, these are very common things. Women truly can be 'clueless' as to men's real intentions sometimes. Women who didn't grow up around men and see all the disgusting, base stuff they think about all the time when they think of women don't really understand that men often really DO just wanna get in your pants. When a man flirts, the woman often just thinks he's enjoying the banter, not having a hidden agenda.

And women worrying about what everyone else thinks more so than men is also common. Women worry about upsetting people. Women take more on themselves so as not to cause strife or see a 'look' on someone's face. It's crazymaking, but there it is.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

StevenD79 said:


> I feel very uneasy telling somebody to physically do anything. So I won't. Any thoughts on that aspect?


Well, again, that goes back to the boundaries. "I need..." 

"I am feeling like we're getting complacent. I'd feel better if we could do some things to reconnect, like filling out these forms I heard about. What do you think?"

This may be too touchy-feely for your relationship; you may need to add some testosterone to that conversation.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

turnera said:


> Well, again, that goes back to the boundaries. "I need..."
> 
> "I am feeling like we're getting complacent. I'd feel better if we could do some things to reconnect, like filling out these forms I heard about. What do you think?"
> 
> This may be too touchy-feely for your relationship; you may need to add some testosterone to that conversation.


Thanks again Turneva, I do really appreciate the positive assistance and advice on here that has been received.

I do get it now and have a path forward. And I see despite each others boundaries that pen ultimately on some level we all look out for ourselves, it appears natural. In reality I have never really struggled getting with ladies, but I have struggled with relationships. I really did not understand how to quantify and keep check of the work element involved (35 and clueless:rofl

Moving forward we can grow and both try to meet each others needs better. If the boundaries are breached when it is going well, I guess that's it, nothing left. 

But as it stands an area of disdain at the way my partner handled herself when we were not on our usual footing would be the wrong reason to instantly end what is fundamentally great. 

Any more would have been too much, but that would be due to my personal choice.

I did check phone records and all phone databases from apps and games etc and nothing untoward.

And yea...if I placed the conversation in the "girly way" I would laugh, she would laugh and wonder WTF I was upto:lol:

Hope I do not need many posts for advice in my life and wished I had been aware of this forum in the "past".

S


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I think it's great that you've clarified your intentions to marry. At the same time, I think that it's important to recognize that her response (to pull away) is what will potentially happen when times are tough in marriage. I hope the two of you will be able to openly and honestly evaluate that over a period of time before you wed.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

KathyBatesel

That is the only issue on my mind in honesty. But getting to the bottom of it is a little tricky?

S


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

For honesty, there must be safety. Practice letting her tell you what she doesn't like about you, without you reacting to it. Listen to it, acknowledge it, and thank her for her honesty. Then go away and think about it and figure out if you want to change what she doesn't like. The LB questionnaire is great for opening up that conversation.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

I think you should leave her and move on OP. # of reasons for this (some are below) but the main reason is that she simply doesn't seem to understand how male/female relationships work. Also her actions are extremely disrespectful and inappropriate from someone that's in a relationship. It almost seems like she is walking her friends footsteps.......

Here is some other reasons:

a) she has already broke your trust early in the relationship and has relationships with male friends (HUGE red flags). First off, what kind of a WOMAN doesn't know that male/female relationship are based on male attraction. This is a GIRL not a woman. Going out with a male friend? That's just crazy. She is literally telling you to "**** off" with her actions IMO. I have a feeling she is not the kind of person that would put herself in your shoes and think about what it would be like for you to go out with a woman. Insane....

b) She is young. At that age, she doesn't know if she wants marriage or not (with her actions, she clearly doesn't)...and in 5-10 years or so her outlook on life can and probably will change completely. 

c) She has crappy friends. Over time, they will effect her and what she does......will become like them too at some point. When you are around someone long enough you do follow eventually (sorry). Also, she will be getting advice from these people......as clearly she is not mature enough and capable to make these decisions herself.

d) It sounds like she has very little ambition/future (career wise)? Where does she currently work? Remember, her income will be a HUGE part of your family contribution in the future (if you do end up having children/family). Lack of education/ambition will have an effect on you down the road.

Move on OP. Pack your stuff/leave and never contact her again. You don't deserve this type of treatment. 

If you proceed, you are simply setting yourself up for a major failure.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

StevenD79 said:


> manfromlamancha
> 
> Thanks, food for thought.
> 
> Now the toxic friend has only been in the picture for say 6 months. She was a work friend, initially they did not get on, or so I am told. Yea she actually tried to act as a go between to arrange.


I can write a book about "friendships at work". 

She has no clue what she is doing and uses word "friend" loosely (and IMO this word should not be used that way and be reserved for people that EARN trust and show that they are great friends.....that takes months/years).


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

DoF

I would like to say great feel better. But that was not what I asked for. I am heavily weighing up your comments.

Initial 3 months aside, with light flirting with orbiters etc.... This is the next episode.... But she has shown herself again.

I have a little recent twist to add and will do so shortly. But thank you for your opinion, I would be safe following it.

S


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I can understand why you're not keen to jump into another marriage without solid guarantees that the past will not repeat itself but honestly, you've been dating her for three years and I think I also read that you're trying for a baby? If she's good enough to mother your children, surely she's good enough to marry...

If I was her, I'd be gone by now. Three years and all she has heard is promises. It wouldn't surprise me if she's thinking somewhere in the back of her mind that she's wasting her life with you, that out there somewhere is a guy who'd want to commit to her 100% from day dot. People think it shouldn't matter, but until you make that commitment, you're boyfriend and girlfriend; there's no promise to work through any problems that come up because you've got one foot out the door ready to run as soon as something goes wrong.

Don't take this as me saying she's doing everything right etc, but if she's pulling away from you, maybe it's because she's starting to think you're all talk, and more empty promises aren't going to solve that, in fact, more promises with no action would probably just make her doubt you more.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Hey Breeze,

Thanks. Your post hit me in the gut in honesty!

But then it is a perception that is valid and may be very relevant.

I have to be careful to protect myself. If she had proven faultless in trust initially, we would me married.

My inner query is a little like a scene from meet the fockers or meet the parents "Can you ever really trust another human being Greg" 

The 1st minor bump in the road where by she has opportunity, that opportunity was taken not to demonstrate openness, loyalty and a moral high ground, irrespective of difficulty. But to walk the line. There is choosing a path and meaning to choose that path with a singularity of thought. I falter at times but can always check myself quickly and easily. But I rely on myself for strength and really do not feel a desperate need for anybody to gain strength.

The person underneath worries me at times, as it is a little like dealing with a skittish horse (sorry for the analogy). Of which I also have in my life, it is all great, but outside that comfort zone and you can not put your house on it! And in this instance I am putting my house, sanity, life on it.

At the moment it is back to usual fantastic relationship. But as alluded to there is a little twist and quite frankly it is a **** test. She will choose her own path, by how the next few weeks pan out. I need to feel protected and a relationship without trust or openness is of no value to me. 

I also appreciate that she perhaps feels distanced/insecure by not having a ring, but I am a grown man. And unlike many, I commit, and the religious or legal ties have nothing to do with it for me. But I see that K is different. At the same time if she can get better, then she should go. In seriousness, I doubt she could be happier without maturity to guide her and help her understand just what else she wants in life. 

At this stage, if she had handled her business better, I would have placed a ring on her finger and provided security for as long as I breath, as long as she remained loyal. I was actually hoping that this situation would have arisen sooner, as it opportunity always does. 

I have to remember that most of society has nowhere near the emotional and life maturity offered here from you guys. My mates would just brush it of. The incident is nothing, the underlying persona and judgement something entirely different. 

S


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Honestly, Steven, 26 is hardly mature at all, 23 much less so. The brain doesn't stop developing until around 25 so she's just now getting into who she really is. I was still worried about my mom knowing I was having sex at the age of 30, and I'd been married 9 years by then. Maturity is a slippery slope. You do seem to look at her as your child, IMO. Or maybe a project.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Hi Turnera

I kina laughed a little at your example.

I think stepping back she is mature, Very much so in some ways. As mature as my ex wife, same age as me.

In honesty not as a child or a project. But I understand fundamentally issues that can arise in life. Genuinely my past was rather catastrophic in breaking up. Hence being sure on a very deep level of who somebody is, remains key to me. I have tasted the dirt and will do all in my power to avoid that. 

Saying that, I came here to get a feel if I was excessive in sensitivity and it seems not.
In the past, prior to my full maturity, I would be a very uncompromising individual. This had a negative impact in that relationships did not last, friendships either. Not taking crap is great, but I was a little zealous!

I am at the point of clarity now, for what I feel happy with.

We have great chemistry and other than very definite but slight issues that have not crossed my boundaries, we are good together and both very happy.

But I need to **** or get of the pan in broad speak.

Which way I go will depend upon my s/o's actions.

She was going to go to an event with friend (toxic). When called out on the issue of the original messages she offered not to meet or speak to her again. I noted that what she does is her choice. Now she knows my boundaries.

She can go and:

1. Have a good time, giggle and be with the friends family. But may cross the line in how she acts or behaves. The O/M mentioned to start with in the thread will be there, as it is an amateur boot camp boxing event/evening with a bar afterwards (for white collar workers to be champs for the night). She may well hug, kiss on cheek, flirt or talk in a way that is not acceptable to our relationship.

2. As above but maintain very firm boundaries and act as a lady should. 

3. Choose not to go at all.

One of the above will mean that I empty her wardrobes and ask her to leave immediately, with zero further contact.

Two will mean that I have the peace of mind to move forward.

Irrespective I have tools and perspective to form knowledge for my future. I have also learned a lot about myself from being here. I had no expectations, but will contribute if I ever think I can help here. Will also pass the forum to others, as none of this is unique :-D

S


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

How will you know what she does?


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Hi Turnera et al, apologies but work has been hectic!

She has chosen not to go. Even though I have actually encouraged it positively.

I would have checked up personally, or through friends.

The fundamental issue is that she thinks it is no big deal and out of proportion. Not understanding that the boundary is important for me and honesty, integrity and moral fortitude.

We have been on a few date nights and have been looking at holidays. I have also questioned her on what she wants or feels and noted that I am committed and that we could marry within 6 months. She is happy and looking forward to a family life etc. 

Unfortunately she has not dropped the friend, her immaturity and lack of life experience is very apparent in this fact. And neither has she sought to actively make me feel at ease or peace since the event.

As such her blissful and privileged life with myself is about to come to an end. I will be asking her to leave this evening. A lack of forthrightness and boor boundaries with lies by omission will occur again. They have occurred with all of her past minor relationships and will plague her through the future I feel.

DoH your comments hit home and I thank-you. 

You are quite right, and I feel it better to find a decent person with more aligned outlook from the start. Just a little tricky with people blatantly lying!!

I have accessed a tool kit and assistance here that will assist going forward.

S


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

ahath said:


> The last argument a few days ago was about...


Sorry Ahath,

I am really tired and not thinking straight at the moment?? help me out:scratchhead:

S


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Steven, you're in no rush. If you're not ready to think straight, do nothing for now.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Steven, what are your expectations of marriage? It almost sounds as if you think marriage should mean a lack of conflicts. 

It's wise to make sure you are compatible and share similar values, but even the best relationships have several areas of conflict. The important thing to consider is what happens when conflict exists: 

- Do you still behave respectfully to each other? 
- Do you find ways to understand the other's position on things? 
- Do you make the relationship more important than the issue, or does that opposite happen?


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

StevenD79 said:


> Hi Turnera et al, apologies but work has been hectic!
> 
> She has chosen not to go. Even though I have actually encouraged it positively.
> 
> ...


This is very important to emphasize how you and her see in different directions, when it comes to relationships and the fundamental elements that keep it going.

She chose not to go so that she could avoid arguments and shut you up, but deep down she doesn't see the other side of the disrespect that causes to your relationship. 

Marrying her would be a mistake now because she's doesn't have the maturity to understand what is important to you and how respect in a relationship should be handled.

You either delay marriage, or break up for a while and let her grow up ...then maybe you can get back together.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

KathyBatesel said:


> Steven, what are your expectations of marriage? It almost sounds as if you think marriage should mean a lack of conflicts.
> 
> It's wise to make sure you are compatible and share similar values, but even the best relationships have several areas of conflict. The important thing to consider is what happens when conflict exists:
> 
> ...


Not at all Kathy

In honesty it is yes to all of the later. 

As I got home, about to do the deed she approached me for a chat

She said that she did not want to go as it is disrespectful to me and also speaking to her friend was disrespectful. Her friend had tried again on the same note of previous "go on a date".

She says that she made herself very clear that she had no interest in any other man.

Also K my partner was questioning how this sort of thing even came up with her husbands friends and her, when they know full well she is in a LTR.

So that sort of stole my wind. She answered the question after thought, in the way and mindset that a future life partner should in my opinion.

But......There is always to my mind an underlying issue, I am not stupid. 

Over the past 9 months I had been working long and hard under stress to get the cash for our house purchase. It seems K has felt neglected and the attraction bond has reduced for her. She says that as I was not there or so tired when I was present, that she had to down turn that element in her from a sexual drive perspective.
Duty sex if you like.

She says that she is very attracted per se, just not as attracted?

My faults are reduced emotional connectional, not treating her like a date and likely being complacent. Her faults are not communicating that with me, and deep down would argue not holding fire for a period to better our lives.

Incidentally I have corrected with reduced work time, she works longer hours currently, bettering myself and getting back into shape and dating/breaks together etc.

She says that the butterflies have gone. I did not bite and reply, but merely stated that if she wants to stay with me, then we must each pull our weight towards the end result. And that attraction is not all butterflies after 3 years.

Not sure, really which way to go about sorting this out, to me if I love a woman, then no problem is insurmountable as long as communication and trust remain. But hey I am a guy wtf do I know!

S


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Butterflies are SUPPOSED to be gone. They only last in the body/mind for up to 4 or 5 years. In everyone. It's science. Print out this article and read it with her: Love Chemical - Love Chemicals and Chemistry of Love

How do you get butterflies back? By continuing to date. And by that I mean going to new restaurants, learning new sports together, trying new positions, meeting new friends...basically putting NEW MEMORIES into your brain that you have shared with your partner. That creates a bond.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I don't think butterflies necessarily go away. I still feel that same crazy attraction for my husband. Not quite as often, and we argue sometimes these days, but the butterflies and head-over-heels are still present quite often after 4 years. 

It sounds like you guys really have a great way of relating to each other, Steven. I am happy for you and think you'll do very well together. Yes, if you don't spend plenty of time together, it will wear on the relationship. I've been seeing this in my relationship lately as I've gotten super busy and say "Sure, hon, take some time to chill" instead of "I'm so glad you're home. Can I give you a massage while you chill?" It hasn't made our relationship bad, but it HAS made it different and could lead to bad if we don't make sure to get our priorities back.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's why I said you have to continue nurturing the relationship to keep (or get back) those feelings. You can't just get married and get into your routine and take each other for granted, and expect butterflies to hang around.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Thank-you both for the further help and assistance. And thanks yet again Turnera for the link!

I must admit that the butterflies and overt desire have reduced for me also, but I still adore and want her. That is reciprocal with us. The excitement and pure surge of adrenalin at the start of the relationship is just not going to return for me in any relationship, but the attraction builds in a deeper manner. One that can work through issues such as this for example and still means that we desire and feel great about being together!

What is interesting for me, is that I can forgive and not resent in this relationship. I feel that I have broken my destructive nature of the past, that was no small part due to being here and seeing the perspectives unfold and allowing me to find my own feelings without a knee jerk reaction.

When I explained in simple terms, and when K was not upset last night, that I was working hard to simply buy the house, propose, children....She burst into tears, saying that is what she wanted. She thought I was going to string her along for years or let her down. 

It is strange how two parties can see these things so differently. Shocking, and has opened my eyes more than a little. Seriously why so complicated

I will update in a few weeks or a month, unless further help is needed. Of course always lurking and learning

Steven


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

StevenD79 said:


> The excitement and pure surge of adrenalin at the start of the relationship is just not going to return for me in any relationship, but the attraction builds in a deeper manner.


As it should. The problem comes when someone with the introspection and wisdom you show marries someone who still believe in rainbows and white knights and gets disillusioned when the knight turns out to be just a guy.

Show her the stuff. Read it out loud to her if she won't read it; she can't unhear it. Teach her what a real relationship is supposed to be, according to _professionals_. That's the best hope you have.

Oh, and continue to find new things to experience together.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Just an update, in response to the help received.

The thread would have been better in CWI.

She had been having a definite emotional affair with a past lover for 4 months or so.

And also listening to toxic friend.

It comes to light that the boxing guy hitting on her for contact thought it was controlling for me to check her phone .......

She is in the fog and is looking for something that does not, in my view, exist.

The E/A Is certain and the guy is engaged....nice.

Heads in a mess at the moment and with my past history I am going to find it extremely hard if not impossible to be in a relationship again.

Thanks all

S


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

You know what you need to do Steven. She's toxic and surrounds herself with other toxic people. She is cheating. She is still young and immature emotionally.

Time to move on down the road.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What's your plan?


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## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

Just read the whole thread and it seems like it was going well for a bit.

Sorry to hear about the update.

Remember to keep strong and to be true to yourself. 

Good luck.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Steven:

It sounds like you don't really trust her now, and that she's given you reason. Given your sad experience with marriage and infidelity, I doubt you would want to move forward with her. The nagging doubts would haunt you all through the process.
I'd say break up with her, and if she reacts to that with a lot of sorrow and regret you might consider getting back with her. If otherwise then you'll know leaving her was the right thing to do. I sense that you believe there are better women out there, and I think you are right.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks for the support and kind words guys :-(

It is a little sad and some element of this is different to my past experience.

My EX W was remorseful but I had zero interest in forgiving or moving on. Partly as she had an element of her persona that I had always felt I could not put finger on, or was not a part of, despite a deep connection. We were good in general, but I always had that last little bit of connection that I can not truly place into words, that appeared missing. She also was not forthcoming after D Day in the manner that would have been needed for me to consider her later pleas ok.

This current saga has left me bemused. My partner has asked forgiveness and provided complete transparency and is mortified by what she considered stupidity and immaturity. But I guess she would say that now

Her boundaries are notably crap both opposite sex and also at work and with friends. And the insecurity of hers likely needs professional help. 

She is sorry and prepared to do whatever it requires to stay on board. I can likely forgive and move on due to the openness, at the very least heal from that forthrightness better.

But whether I will stick this out remains to be seen. The problem she is gong to come against is me switch off and distancing, which has already occurred. Unsure if that connection can be regenerated naturally, but a little time will tell. 

I am over the shock, horror and in honesty rage. Which true to form occurs quickly with me. I wish I could bottle that ability and give to others that hurt for far longer, in such circumstances.

My partner has read this post at my request. And in honesty she seemed to click. If she becomes a better women with me, or somebody else, later down the road then all of the posters here have really helped in the world, albeit a step at a time. 

I can say she has had a shock and a lesson, that seems to be able to make her at least aware, of what she has done and without being an arrogant ass, likely a better person for a relationship, if that is what she wishes out of life.

She is mortified and has come crashing out of any fog that existed very hard and quick. She feels used and foolish and had her own doorstep to rest the blame. 

I need a little time to think this through. I had a good nights sleep last night. That's a bonus :-D

S 
thanks to you all for reading this episode of heartbreak hotel as it unfolded....Unfolds.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Steven's woman: Right now, you should be:
writing a No Contact letter to your lover and handing it to Steven
lining up a therapist for you and one for both of you
reading His Needs Her Needs together with Steven and doing the homework
offering to tell your parents what you did so he can see you're really remorseful
offering to line up a polygraph so he can get the truth
handing over all your electronics and passwords whenever he asks
writing out a timeline of what you did for him
letting him know where you are at all times so he can verify

This stuff will be temporary but HE and his needs will dictate the actual time.


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

She has done all of the above.

Including looking for a new job etc.

She is in my mind truly remorseful. Yet it was deeper and darker yet still.

Physical.

Over the weekend she has been tragically sorry and upset to the point of self harm consideration. The guilt hurts her apparently. And yet I would say it was the getting caught!?

****ed up for sure.

S


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Hi Steven

I have just caught up with your thread and am sorry that it ended up here.

Just to be clear, are you saying that the affair had gone physical ?

And this is not the guy from the boxing event (who still seemed to be fishing and causing trouble), but an old flame who is engaged ?

If this is true, have you outed him to his fiancee ?

Did the toxic friend have anything to do with this ?

Just trying to understand. I really believe that this is over and should have been over some time ago, but it was just that you seemed to think that she was truly remorseful about what she did (as opposed to feeling guilty about being caught).

You are really, really, really lucky that you caught this before you got married. How did you find out (a) about the continued contact/EA with OM2, and (b) the PA ?

Take care and don't make any hasty decisions yet (about forgiving and forgetting etc).


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## StevenD79 (Apr 7, 2014)

manfromlamancha said:


> Hi Steven
> 
> I have just caught up with your thread and am sorry that it ended up here.
> 
> ...


*I think you are right here. Life is a journey and I will just take the road at a comfortable pace and do what is good and correct for me.

Thank you for the interest. Still can not believe it has escalated from boundaries and keeping things fresh to this so quickly. My spider senses were tingling, I knew it was something but could not believe or identify what it was.

Steven*


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