# my wife's split-personality vs. my family



## ShamelssLover

Me and my wife have been married for 2 and half years- 34 and 32 yrs old. We both are from Asia, I came to USA about 10 yrs back and my wife came 2 yrs back. Since day 1 of living together - we have issues. I find her very possessive and the most insecure person in the whole world. She lives in her own fantasy world where she is always right. She is an angel if I follow everything to please her. But there is another part of her personality, where she can be violent or cry baby – I am the only one who sees that. I have been lucky, that cops never showed up during one of those incidents.

My wife has deep down hatred for my parents, brother, uncles, cousins -everyone in my family. My Wife has always this thing that she is from a rich family and my whole family is backward. If I could just disconnect with everyone in my family - our life will be good. But, I just cannot. I cannot live without talking to my parents or family members. We always have been very close. And they are integral part of my life. Loving/respecting them is not my duty or obligation, but it's life. I just cannot detach. I want to take care of my parents when they are old. I want then to live with us here in USA. I cannot just forget what hardships they have gone through for making me what I am today. The origin of my W's hatred comes from the fact that I love my parents a lot. My wife thinks that I help everyone in my family financially too and buy gifts - which is party true. But I want to do all this.

Things got to the worst when my mother was visiting us about 2 months back. My wife was about 9 mo pregnant. Things started with small stuffs. My wife will always complain about the things my mom will do. Then my mom will say something, then my wife will give a lecture. In short, my wife was so pissed one evening that she shouted at mother: "I did not ask you to come here and live with us, your son did" "You have ruined our family - You can just go from here". That was a bad night, I took my mom to a friend's place and she lived there for like two weeks. She was just waiting for the baby to come up and then she could just leave for India.

However, after the baby came, I had to bring my mother back because I was really tired and I needed some help at home. I knew this may not going to work but I had no choice. However, just after like 10 days,my wife verbally abused her again and kicked her out of the house. Her words :"ask this woman to leave". "she came here to ruin our family". She has to go right now. SHE HAS TO GO. (yes, it was louder than it sounds). The main reason of her misbehavior stems from my talking to mother after work, or taking her out for errands - W thought my mother is taking control over me - but that’s not true.

I will copy paste the incident that night from my diary:

****
Things started with: I asked her to put some better clothes - I could see her underwear. I asked her because we have a guest (mom) these days at our place. I would not have cared if it were just me and my wife. She did not say much. Then she calls me in the bed room. Her words : "Your mom has to go right now. I can cook my own food. Bla bla... She has ruined our lives." Me:"Mom is not going anywhere if you want to go , you can". We yell at each other. She gets pissed, her words: "if you like her so much why don't you just have her!" It makes me angry- I get out of the bed room.

My mother is in the other room , and possibly heard our shouting. My W comes out of her bed room. She keeps talking **** about my mother. Mother comes out of her room. Her words : xxx, what did I do wrong? W's words: "It's you who have done everything, we were happier before, please go from my life". My mom cries. I asked mom to go inside the room and do not say anything between us. Because, whatever my mother says that will be a negative thing. She goes inside.

Me and my W keep yelling at each other- the baby is in the bed room and probably listening but asleep. Things get bad - W start throwing chairs. Her words : I want her to GO RIGHTNOW. YES RIGHTNOW. SHE RUINED US. I shout too - her words make me sad and angry- "if my mom leaves, I am leaving too and not coming back. Do whatever." She goes towards the room my mom is in. She pounds at the door, door opens. Her words "You have to go right now. This is what you came for, to ruin our lives. You want us to be separated. You want us to be divorced. You just leave. GET OUT from here - it's my home." W comes to me :"she has to go , make her out RIGHTNOW". I say: give me 15 minutes and I will take her to somewhere. She :"NO. RIGHTNOW means RIGHTNOW." It's about mid night - I just hope some body does not call 911 and cops show up. I kinda wished for that - I did not want to live any single moment with this girl.

I go to mom's room. Ask her to pack the bags -"we are leaving". Mom is crying. I am crying, and my wife is being a bi%$h. She could be so unreasonable and insensitive - I never knew! It hurts. It kills. Mom is packing the bag on the carpet in her room. I am standing there- sad and distraught - what the F$%^ I have done to my life. My mother does not deserve all these.

Meanwhile, W comes to the room. She knows I am also leaving with my mother. Her words: "Please do not go - I do not care if she (looking at my mom with known disgust) lives here or not, but I cannot live without you". She has absolutely zero respect for the people - I love /admire/respect. How can someone call it love? If this is love - I do not give a damn! She treated my mother like a dirt. I can still see the disgust on my W's face when she ever talk about my mother.

About midnight: Anyway, I got mom's luggage and came out of the apartment. My mom cried. I had tears. Never imagined such a good bye for her. She could not see her granddaughter before she left. It was bad. We went to a friend's place and lived there for another 2-3 days. Then she left.

*******

I can go with the many incidents here- but I will stop . I have been thinking of separation, and I would like to have your views. We have 2 months old baby and things are going to be difficult. I can see this relationship would not last long. I cannot keep letting things happen. I can see a pattern. I do not want to feel like a slave in my home.

My Wife has no regrets of what she has done and how much hurt she has caused. Her words: “What I did to your mother- she deserved it.” It’s not the first time she has shown this misbehavior but it has happened in the past. I am more sad that she does n’t even realize that her actions hurt me. People may argue that it was all my mother’s fault but still you do not kick your husband’s mother out in the middle of night in a foreign land. She lives in her own world where she is the victim and I and my whole families are culprits.


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## ThreeStrikes

Sorry you are here, Shamelsslover.

You seem to have married a real shrew. Disordered and broken.

The "split-personality" aspect shares a lot in common with borderline personality disorder (BPD). Thinking is black/white, love/hate. Alienating you from your family/friends. Changing her mood in the blink of an eye. 

The question is: Why are you tolerating this relationship?

and: How much longer can you take it?

I spent 15 years with my BPD wife. If I had to do it again, I would have left her when she first started showing these traits (after I proposed).

Do yourself a favor. Leave her now. You can't fix her.


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## ShamelssLover

Thanks ThreeStrikes. 
I am scared how she would take the news of me leaving her. I have seen her getting violent in the past. She is capable of hurting herself. Just my ignoring her and not being in love make her real upset. We already have a quite few of scene in last few days. Most of the time, she will end up crying and blaming me for everything– it goes for hours. And almost always, it happens after midnight. Note that I have to go work for 10-12 hours a day- 5days a week.
Now we have 2 months old baby. If I leave, she wont be in a state to take care of her. If I fight for custody of the child, that’s going to be very upsetting to her. I want to point out that her parents are dead and she has a sister but they are not on talking terms. She is very close to her uncle/cousins and considers them her family. So, in short, our child is only real family she got.
She is also totally dependent on me – for everything. She does not know how to drive – I take her everywhere. I am not sure what separation would lead to. We have a few common friends who can drive her around. But still, it would be a major setback. 
I am writing all this, because if I divorce, I really do not want to see her. She would either be violent all the times or will start to cry or a combination of both– and I will be emotionally blackmailed. Meantime, I would like to keep seeing my child. I am not sure how this setup would work.
If she would have been a bold and independent woman – I would not have much issue. I would have left. I also know deep down in heart, I cannot take very long. One day, it would come and I will just go to the attorney. It has taken toll on me – physically and emotionally.

PS: she is not diagnosed with personality disorder, but I have strong feeling that she has emotional problem – or BPD. She can be really mean in 1 sec and she will act as nothing has happened and she is an angle the other sec. She gets pissed if I ask that we should go for counselling.


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## Uptown

ShamelssLover said:


> She is not diagnosed with personality disorder, but I have strong feeling that she has emotional problem – or BPD.


Shameless, welcome to the TAM forum. You are fortunate to have immediately attracted the attention of ThreeStrikes, who is very experienced with the warning signs for BPD. I agree with ThreeStrikes that the behaviors you describe -- i.e., the temper tantrums, verbal abuse, emotional instability, lack of impulse control, always being "The Victim," and black-white thinking -- are classic traits of BPD.


> She can be really mean in 1 sec and she will act as nothing has happened and she is an angle the other sec.


As ThreeStrikes explained, this rapid flip between loving you and hating you is called "black-white thinking" (aka, "splitting"). Because a BPDer has a fragile, unstable sense of who she is, she cannot tolerate having strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or the other grey areas of interpersonal relationships. A BPDer has never learned that skill because -- usually due to a trauma occurring before age 5 -- her emotional development is stuck at the level of a four year old. 

A BPDer therefore will categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad" so she knows how to deal with them. And she will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in just a few seconds -- based solely on a minor comment or infraction. This all-or-nothing thinking also will be evident in her frequent use of expressions such as "You never..." and "You always...."


> my wife's *split-personality* vs. my family


If your W has strong BPD traits, the black-white thinking will make you feel like you are living with a woman who is half way to having a split personality. This is a very common complaint from the abused spouses who have been living with BPDers.


> My wife has deep down hatred for my parents, brother, uncles, cousins -everyone in my family.


Because BPDers have a great fear of abandonment, they will try to control most aspects of your private life to reduce the chance you will leave them. One of the first things they typically do, following the wedding, is to suddenly try to isolate you away from all family members and close friends. Following my wedding, e.g., my exW started complaining that she was being treated badly by all my relatives, including my foster son (whom she quickly started to hate).


> She lives in her own world where she is the victim and I and my whole families are culprits.


Because a BPDer has such a fragile sense of who she is, the closest thing she has to a self image is the false notion that she is "The Victim." A BPDer therefore spends much time trying to validate that false self image. For this reason, her spouse is allowed to play only two roles: savior and perpetrator. Significantly, both of those roles validate her role of being the victim. Sadly, your "savior" days largely ended when you got married. Hence, except for rare occasions, she will tolerate your presence only as long as you continue walking on eggshells, taking the blame for every misfortune that befalls her.


> She gets pissed if I ask that we should go for counselling.


If she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong traits), MC would be a total waste of time until she has had several years (at the very least) of weekly therapy in IC. The reason is that her issues are far more serious than a simple lack of communication skills. I therefore offer the following suggestions.

*As an initial matter,* if you suspect your W has strong BPD traits, I recommend that you NOT tell her. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her. But don't hold your breath waiting for her to improve. The chances of a BPDer being willing to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference is very small -- I would say a chance of 1 in 100.

*Second,* if you think you may stay with her a long while, I suggest you get _Stop Walking on Eggshells_, the best-selling BPD book targeted to spouses like you. Or, if you are decided to get a divorce instead, get _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder._ Both books are written by the same author.

*Third,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Staying" board, "Leaving" board, and "Parenting after the Split" board.

*Fourth,* while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is article #9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. I also recommend Kathy Batesel's excellent blog at Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships.

*Fifth,* I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your daughter are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass it on to your daughter (through genetics or child abuse). As I've explained in many other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers -- much less tell their husbands -- the name of the disorder (to protect the BPDer).

*Sixth,* I suggest you prepare for the upcoming custody battle by documenting, documenting, documenting. Your journal should be used to record all bad incidents. In addition, acquire a VAR that will fit in your shirt pocket so you can record all temper tantrums, particularly those when your daughter is in the room. You may even want to supplement it with the video recorder in your cell phone. If there is any physical violence, be sure to call the police so you have that outrageous behavior on record.

*Finally*, so you have a better idea of what you may be up against, I suggest you read my description of life with a BPDer at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings some bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, Shameless.


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## EleGirl

Has she gotten worse after the pregnancy/birth? I'm wondering if she might be suffering from post partum depression.

Does your wife talk about anything specific that she says your mother did that she is so upset about? Anything that might have happened when you were not around?

Does your wife just throw things around, or does she hit you or otherwise do violence to your person? Does she ever hurt herself or say that she will kill herself?

My suggestion is that since you are still at home with her that you get a record of her verbal/emotional abuse and her violence/physical abuse. How do you do this?

Nanny cam. Get some things with small cameras and put them around your house. Here's a link that just came up on a Google search.

Nanny Camera | Hidden Nanny Cams | Teddy Bear Cams


Also get a VAR (voice activated recorder) and always have it on you.

This way when she has one of her fits, you have it recorded. The only thing is that you will need to be a saint. Make sure that you do nothing to escalate the situation. Do not yell, do not say anything mean to her, etc. Do not touch her for any reason to make sure that you are not accused of attacking her. IF she comes after you physically, go into a non confrontational position and let her hit you. Do not hit her back, do not defend yourself .. unless she has a weapon like a knife (of course). When she starts going ballistic just tell her to stop. "Please stop", "Please do not do this". Say it very calmly.

This is probably get her even more angered so it will work to get a record of what she's like in private.

Your wife is abusive. Abusive people work to isolate their spouse from all support.. from friends and their family. Once she cuts off all of your outside support, the abuse she dishes out to you will escalate.

If I were you I would also be very concerned about your child. She is very likely to treat your baby this say as well. I've seen this happen. When no one is around the mother (this type of woman) very often turns on the their children. So the nanny cams will record what goes on when you are not at home.

Check the laws in your state for recording conversations and making videos when a person does not know they are being recorded. If you tell me what state you are in I can look it up to help you with this. Since it's my bed time right now I could look it up after work tomorrow evening.

If the police show up, you now have evidence that she was the aggressor. You can now go to an attorney and you have evidence that of your abuse/violence. You might be able to get 100% custody of your baby. 

But you have to do this smart. Talk to an attorney to start planning your exit. Do not tell her you are doing this.


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## ThreeStrikes

Sham,

I'm no expert on BPD...just my ex. I made all sorts of excuses to stay with my ex. We had young children, she needed me financially, I didn't want to split up my family, etc.

You know what? We still ended up divorced. I spent 15 years in a roller-coaster relationship, was gradually cut off from all my family and friends, and now I have to deal with her craziness while attempting to co-parent our two kids.

I'll stick with my original advice: GTFO

Ending a Relationship with an Abusive Parent, Child or Sibling, Part One | Shrink4Men

There are several other articles at Shrink4men.com that you might find helpful.


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## ShamelssLover

Thanks Uptown, Elegirl and Threestrikes – you guys have been a great help. You give me hope. I have read your posts couple of times and I am going to read it again – it’s very very helpful.

@ Uptown:
I understand where the reason of insecurities coming from. My wife was born rich. Her both parent died when she was about 25. The only sister abandoned her. She has always been dependent on her uncle/aunt since. If I just assume that I married 5 yrs old one, my whole married life make sense to me. I am fortunate to have this forum where I can write all this. This is a relief.

My wife does have a great fear of abandonment. Just yesterday, she asked me: can I ask something? Hesitatingly, I said okay. When She says something like that- I can see something is coming. So she asks: "Will you ever leave me?". I did not want to answer the question. Because, I want to stop lying to her that I love her but she can't hear the truth. I said: Let us not talk about it. Everything is cool right now, enjoy the moment. She kept asking. I said : "I am not leaving you rightnow ( a vague answer)". She asked me again. So just to keep her happy in the moment, I said, okay I will not leave you. I knew I lied. But I did not want another sleepless night.

I definitely think there is an emotional issue. Most of our common friends understand me. I tried taking help from almost all of the friends so that they could make her understand my point of view. Almost all of them say: dude, I can't do it. She wont understand. There is only one person (her girl friend) who agrees with her point of view. But she never tried talking to me either to know/understand my side of story. I tried taking help from her own family to intervene things between us. They are not supportive and they totally support my wife's view of any incidents.

About Your advice:
> I do suspect she has emotional issue. But I donot think I can ever convince her to go to a psychologist. I have to go through a hell to do that. But I am definitely going to buy one of the books you suggested and check that website/resources.
> Also, thank you very much for 5th,6th and final suggestion. I am going to look into these.

@EleGirl:
Problem always existed. But it got to the worst after my mother came to visit. The reason: my Wife just hates everyone in my family. Is there anything specific? No. My wife hates about how ugly my mother look, how bad does she cook. Anything my mother does or does not do - my wife will have a complain. On top of that, if mom does not speak anything after seeing all this misbehavior. My wife would say: "she does not has to say anything. she can do things without saying anything (indicating that I am in control of my mother)."

My wife's general fit comes with crying for hours. If she is angry she will get violent. She will pull her hair. Mercilessly slap herself. Last time, she was banging her head on the wall. She does not get violent all the times. Since we have the baby, She got really violent one time. Crying shouting yelling - happened many times. I have seen her getting really violent couple of times in 2 and half years of marriage - these incidents were such that cops could come. 

Thanks for all the other advice - I will work on them. I am really concerned about the child and I really do not want her to grow up to be like her mom! But I also understand my wife loves her baby and she would not hurt the baby. But when she yells/shouts then she does not care if baby is right there or not. 

Can I private message you about the state I am in (I am not sure if I can PM you on this website)? 

I wish she were a strong lady and I could exit without much hassle. I know if I do something like this right-now - that will be disastrous for her and my baby. And I am scared - how I am going to deal with her and how long I fake that I love her.


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## Uptown

Shame, I'm glad to hear you found the BPD information helpful.


ShamelssLover said:


> I understand where the reason of insecurities coming from. My wife was born rich. Her both parent died *when she was about 25*. The only sister abandoned her. She has always been dependent on her uncle/aunt since.


Shame, did you mean to say that both parents died when she was 5 (not 25) years old? I ask because losing one's parents at the age of 25 cannot cause strong BPD traits to develop. The trauma must occur in early childhood -- typically before age five, at which time the trauma causes the child's emotional development to freeze. The result is that, absent years of therapy, the person is left having to rely on the primitive ego defenses of a young child: e.g., denial, black-white thinking, projection, magical thinking, and temper tantrums.


> My wife does have a great fear of abandonment.


If she is a BPDer, her other great fear is _engulfment_, a feeling of suffocation whenever she experiences intimacy and closeness. As her husband, you will always find yourself in a lose-lose situation because those two fears (abandonment and engulfment) lie at the opposite ends of the VERY SAME spectrum. This means that, as you back away from her to avoid triggering her engulfment fear, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering her abandonment fear.

Importantly, there is no midpoints position where you are not too far away and not too close. Sadly, that Goldilocks position does not exist -- or, if it does, you can never stand there because it is a knife edge that is constantly shifting. I know only because I foolishly spent 15 years trying to find it.


> I do suspect she has emotional issue. But I do not think I can ever convince her to go to a psychologist. I have to go through a hell to do that.


If she becomes suicidal, you may have to call the police and try to get her institutionalized. Otherwise, I recommend you NOT try to force her into therapy. If she has strong BPD traits, therapy will be useful only if she is strongly self-motivated to pursue it. 

If she is not self-motivated, pushing her into therapy almost certainly would result in her playing mind games with the therapist while you fork out $150/hour. That's what I did. Specifically, I spent a small fortune sending my exW to six different psychologists (and 3 MCs) for weekly visits for 15 years -- all to no avail.


> My wife's general fit comes with crying for hours.


BPD temper tantrums typically last 4 or 5 hours (only rarely as long as 18 hours).


> She will pull her hair. Mercilessly slap herself. Last time, she was banging her head on the wall.


These acts of self harm are a very bad sign. They are signs that she is sometimes slipping from a high-functioning state (where her anger is directed outward to you) into a low-functioning state (where her anger is turned inward). My exW would sometimes do that too and it always scared the hell out of me. 

If your W is a BPDer, she most likely is HF nearly all the time or you would not have dated her, much less married her. Indeed, the vast majority of BPDers are HF. They nonetheless can slip into LF states when under enough stress from their fears. It will be evident when the BPDer shifts from "acting out" (i.e., yelling and screaming) to "acting in" (i.e., saying they are worthless and harming themselves and being passive-aggressive).


> I am really concerned about the child and I really do not want her to grow up to be like her mom! But I also understand my wife loves her baby and she would not hurt the baby.


HF BPDers often can do very well when the child is young because the child is so fully dependent on them that their abandonment and engulfment fears are not triggered. All of that changes, however, when the child reaches puberty and starts thinking for herself and being non-compliant.


> But when she yells/shouts then she does not care if baby is right there or not.


Even if your W does not verbally abuse your child, she nonetheless will be harming your child whenever that child is witness to the verbal and physical assaults on you. Sadly, the child grows up learning that this verbal abuse is how husbands and fathers are to be treated.


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## EleGirl

ShamelssLover said:


> Can I private message you about the state I am in (I am not sure if I can PM you on this website)?
> .


yes


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## ShamelssLover

@ Uptown: No, my wife was about 25, a grown up. First, her father had heart attack and then her mother had severe illness and she passed away. Although, she was an adult, she went through a period of sorrow. I remember that she has always been stubborn even before we got married but I never saw this coming. I remember: if she called and I wont pick the phone. She will keep calling me more than 20 times (not always but it would happen), then I would be pissed and switch off the phone. And we would not talk for a few days. 

But, later, we fall for each other. Even today, she takes care of everything at home. Keeps the house clean and do all house work. At her best, she is some one all other guys would envy. But at her worst- she is as cold as it gets. Sadly, when it happens I am the only one around. Our quarrel occurred more often when we just started living together and then there was a phase - it was okay for few months. Of course, she has her usual fit like I mentioned before - but we would have a stretch of happy days together. So, although I will be upset with the drama, I will be okay with time. Things got out of hand when we bought up my mother. And I got to saw my wife's worst behavior - I can never deem it as acceptable. I would never ever want to live those moments again. It was then - I thought, I cannot live like this all my life. Things need to be changed.

I know if I break all ties with my family back home - we will have a happy life. But I cannot do this. Even if I were someone who could do that then her tantrums would come in another form. Why don't I buy a house? Where does all your money go - where do you keep them? Look at the other couple- how much fun they have? You never do anything for me! 

I am still debating if she has BPD traits. More I think, more I get positive. Her stories (about misbehavior to my family members) never make sense to me - I talk to friends, it does not make sense to them either. And we can never talk like adults. No, never - it will end up in hours of crying and I will listen the blame : how I ruined her life? So, now I just try to escape any discussion. I go home - do what I have to do. I listen and respond. I try to be calm. I spend time with my baby girl - she is the best. And, I keep thinking, what should I do? Exiting SOON would not be easy considering her total dependence on me and emotional immaturity (having 2 month old one is another factor). She has no support here in USA. Her family really do not care (although she has false notion). She will end up crying all her life. We have common friends - or, let me say, most of her friends are through me. She is close to only one of her gf. She actually never had a close friends back in India. Whereas, I always have/had many friends - some are real gem I can rely on. 

Thanks Uptown, Elegirl and Threestrikes for your comments - you guys have been awesome!


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## ShamelssLover

I need help – I am getting crazier day by day. Let me note down the incident which happened 2 days back.

----
We were getting ready for the my W 's medical appointment. She wanted me to take some honey as she thought I had cold (an old remedy). I did not want to eat - not sure why. Probably did not want to eat anything sweet in the morning. She told me a few times. I said no. she said again: do whatever, but donot dare to pass your cold to my daughter. I did not like her tone – I got pissed. I love my daughter and I donot like my W bringing her between us when we are not in our best mood. I said: Will I die if I do not eat the honey? I said it in -I am pissed - way. It broke all hell. I know I should not have said this. But I am getting crazy day by day. Her side of being nice to me - I could not stand. I feel like she is trying to win me back. It was immature from my part. But the hell was broke and the damage was done.

She started with how much I am influenced by my mother. She has left but it feels like she is still there. She says how ugly and how big of a vamp she was. I say: Do not talk about my parents. She continues - why should n't I? She has ruined our happiness and you would not change. She goes on: what kind of women is she? She came from a backward village and she went for pedicure. Ugly ***** - she has no shame. (Mom went for pedicure just once -one of my friends took her for pedicure and the friend paid for it)

She keeps it on after we came back from doc’s office. Rambling went on for next half an hour. I could not deal with it. Stood there and listened. Then left for work.

She calls me at work- I pick the phone. She continues how big of a jerk I am and how I have ruined her life. She goes on and on. After about half an hour I put the phone. She calls back - I pick. Same thing. I hung up. She calls me back - over 10 times. I do not pick the phone. She is real angry and She sends me over 100 texts. Her texts include all mean things about me and my mother and how I am a momma's boy. I am a dog and my mamma is a *****. She said that if we have an affair. She continued with all the abusive words you can think of. I did not reply to her texts. Between, she kept calling - she might have called me over 20 more times. I feel worthless - an emptiness. I have no idea how to deal with all this. 

Somehow, I survive the work. At 7 PM, I get out of work. I go to parking lot and call her. I thought if she promises not to argue I will come over or I will not come for the night. We talk for an hour. Initially things were fine and then she continues with the same thing- all same **** about my mother. She says how cruel she was. Afterwards, I say okay even if I agree with all what you say - how can you kick her out of the apartment in the middle of night? I tried to explain what you did was not right. I say what right you had to yell at my mother or treat her like a maid? But I am shooting in the dark. I know - I cannot cure my wife's sickness. She continues with no remorse at all. With her zero faults about all incidents. I said - see, if my mom were here I would have asked her to apologize -but you will also have to realize your faults. Then I say I am not coming back for the night and hung up. She calls me for another 10 times. I do not pick the phone.

I went to a friend's place and spend the night. Next day, I come to work. I am exhausted. I get emails from her with tilte "Divorce". It says same thing that I need to change or we should separate. I know she has said this million times whenever she is angry. SO I do not care whats in the email. So, I just try everything to calm down and send an email.

--------
We should celebrate D's 1st Diwali (Indian festival)
I only want us to stick with two things. And, I will come down to our apartment. 
1. No arguments between us. Please do not say anything about my family members. That goes to me too - I will not say anything about your family.
2. Let me live the way I am living in the apartment.
If we could stick with that, that will be great.
Let us celebrate D's first Diwali.

---------
I get a reply:

Agreed, I also want few things to happen:
1. We should talk always abt D, u n me here in US, n not ur family .

2. Conc on building our lives n do not neglect us for others satisfaction by providing materialistic things.U hav d habit of wah wahi (helping others), n so spend money on others, but we n our future is being neglected in that.Be good but don't spend money. We ll b able to save for D’s college, our house, our old age,on us.

3. You need to go to a councellor. This is the 5th time u left D wid me alone. Yesterday D got soo scared she kept sweating n breathing fast till midnight that I had to call d Paedriatric nurse . This can effect her heart. U need to b aware of reality n need councelling. 
Not worrying abt anything is NOT NORMAL & UNACCEPTABLE.

4. U asked for 2 months to get NORMAL. Ok but after that u will b d same husband as before. Like I have left all grudges behind for D n u, u will also leave all the grudges against me n move on. As it. Affects D's n my life.
If u can do all this then we can think of staying together as a family. Otherwise it is peaceful to b without u here n good for both D n my health.


I read it but did not reply. 
a.	I never bring my parents in our conversation - she starts with talking **** about.
b. our relationship has never been matured enough that I can share all my finances with her. I will be pathetic if I did. She will have questions about everything. I will not be able to help anyone I wanted to. I come from a humble background and I want to take care of a lot of people. But this doesnot mean I will ever neglect my daughter or my wife (if we are still married).
c.	I have been to counselor but it's useless if I just go by myself. Anyway, I am again going in 2 weeks. But issue will be addressed is she accompanies me. And I have left her only 2 times for one night each. Each time, I was only 2 miles away. I am always there when they need me. I make sure there is enough food in the fridge and I am on top of all medical appointments or anything they need.

You say it’s my issue or problem - but I do not like to be in control. And my wife wants to control my soul, happiness and finances.

Anyway, I went home. Things were in control.
-----
I want suggestion from you. I know even if I find a short term solution- I will not be happy in long term. I cannot deal with her anger and things she says all my life. I have seen her anger in the past – and it’s terrifying. As you know I have been thinking of separation/divorce but I just want to make sure If my decision is right. IS there anything else which can save us and make things normal? Or, I am just being a momma’s boy? I know my mother is not an issue here. The issue always existed it just went to the worst when my mom came to stay with us. These days, I feel pathetic. I do not like even when my wife touches me– I get horrified. We sleep in separate bed – which has been a very big issue for her – but I just do not feel like sleeping together at least for now. I need a space where I can breathe.


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## Uptown

Shame, thanks for giving us an update on what's happening. Did you find any of the resources I suggested to be useful? Specifically, did you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what you and your daughter are dealing with? Did you find any useful information at the BPDfamily forum -- or in the articles provided at that same website? You said you would check out one of the books I mentioned -- did you have time to do that? Are you carrying a VAR so you can record your W's latest outbursts?


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## ShamelssLover

Hi Uptown, thanks for message.

I have an appointment scheduled with psychologist in 2 weeks.I did go for couple counselling once just by myself but that was not useful. the lady told to bring my W. My W refuses any counselling telling me that I need it - she does not.

I did check the book - walking on eggshell - it is helpful. Sometime, I just get lost with everything out of control. I have yet to check the articles on BPDfamily forum - I will do that soon.


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## Uptown

ShamelssLover said:


> I am getting crazier day by day.


Shame, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the DSM-5, BPD is the one most notorious for making a large share of the abused spouses and partners feel like they may be going crazy. Hence, if your W has strong BPD traits as you suspected six weeks ago, it is not surprising you feel like you may be losing your mind. Living with an emotionally unstable woman -- who can flip in seconds between Jekyll and Hyde -- usually causes the abused partners to feel extremely confused.


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## ShamelssLover

@Uptown - what would you do if you were me? Considering you were in same phase of life as me. I am 34 and have a 3 months old princess. I am the sole earner - have a great job which pays good- but i work over 50 hours a week - it can be very demanding (mentally).


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## Uptown

ShamelssLover said:


> @Uptown - what would you do if you were me?


Shame, when no young children are involved, my usual advice is to divorce the spouse if she has strong BPD traits and is unwilling to work hard in weekly therapy. When there is a young child, as in your case, my advice is to do whatever you decide is in the best interests of your child. You are in the best position to know what that action is for your family.

IME, the abused spouses in BPDer marriages usually decide that their children will be better off living in a normal environment half the time than in being in an abusive environment 100% of the time (watching their father being abused week after week). Whether this is true in your situation, however, is a matter you must decide on your own. 

This is why I've been urging you to obtain professional guidance from a good psychologist who is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not those of your W. To obtain such candid advice when BPD is involved, it is important that the psych have no connection with your W. This is why it is important to see a professional who has not seen or treated your W. If you live in a large metro area, it is prudent to pick a psychologist who comes highly recommended or has much experience with BPDers. And, of course, you also would need excellent legal advice from an attorney experienced in child custody disputes. This, at least, is what I would do.


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## nogutsnoglory

ShamelssLover said:


> @ Uptown: No, my wife was about 25, a grown up. First, her father had heart attack and then her mother had severe illness and she passed away. Although, she was an adult, she went through a period of sorrow. I remember that she has always been stubborn even before we got married but I never saw this coming. I remember: if she called and I wont pick the phone. She will keep calling me more than 20 times (not always but it would happen), then I would be pissed and switch off the phone. And we would not talk for a few days.
> 
> But, later, we fall for each other. Even today, she takes care of everything at home. Keeps the house clean and do all house work. At her best, she is some one all other guys would envy. But at her worst- she is as cold as it gets. Sadly, when it happens I am the only one around. Our quarrel occurred more often when we just started living together and then there was a phase - it was okay for few months. Of course, she has her usual fit like I mentioned before - but we would have a stretch of happy days together. So, although I will be upset with the drama, I will be okay with time. Things got out of hand when we bought up my mother. And I got to saw my wife's worst behavior - I can never deem it as acceptable. I would never ever want to live those moments again. It was then - I thought, I cannot live like this all my life. Things need to be changed.
> 
> I know if I break all ties with my family back home - we will have a happy life. But I cannot do this. Even if I were someone who could do that then her tantrums would come in another form. Why don't I buy a house? Where does all your money go - where do you keep them? Look at the other couple- how much fun they have? You never do anything for me!
> 
> I am still debating if she has BPD traits. More I think, more I get positive. Her stories (about misbehavior to my family members) never make sense to me - I talk to friends, it does not make sense to them either. And we can never talk like adults. No, never - it will end up in hours of crying and I will listen the blame : how I ruined her life? So, now I just try to escape any discussion. I go home - do what I have to do. I listen and respond. I try to be calm. I spend time with my baby girl - she is the best. And, I keep thinking, what should I do? Exiting SOON would not be easy considering her total dependence on me and emotional immaturity (having 2 month old one is another factor). She has no support here in USA. Her family really do not care (although she has false notion). She will end up crying all her life. We have common friends - or, let me say, most of her friends are through me. She is close to only one of her gf. She actually never had a close friends back in India. Whereas, I always have/had many friends - some are real gem I can rely on.
> 
> Thanks Uptown, Elegirl and Threestrikes for your comments - you guys have been awesome!


You are wrong that getting rid of your family will make your marriage a good one. They are not even in the country. Your wife has latched onto them as her focus due to you having something other than her to look at, talk to, help, think about. This is not caused by them, it is all on your wife. If you stop communicating with them, and all she has to focus on is your work hours, the friend or two you may hang out with, the hobby you enjoy, it will be something you focus on that is not her, and this will not stop ever.

Your wife needs to understand some things and compromise must exist, and her acting like you are supposed to dump your family is nuts. 

Your wife is also a mental case and a danger to your child IMO.
Soon she may see the child as someone taking from her, as she sees you, and you see how she treats you, imagine being a young child and getting that treatment from an adult. I would document all of it, and have a VAR on you at all times when around her. If she gets violent with you or herself, call the cops immediately. Make sure you have a VAR though as she will lie to the cops and also probably make up stories to hurt you.

She sounds like she needs to be committed to a psych ward.
I would let her know you do not trust her with your emotions and unless she will face these issues as a married couple then she will be forcing you to make a decision. Make her understand that getting help is her only option other than losing the stability you give her.
Do something, doing nothing has never solved much. This will only get worse, that I promise.


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## ShameLessLover

Not sure why I (Shamelsslover) got banned after my last post. I had to create another account to be able to post and connect with you guys - and not sure if I will be banned again. When I try to log-in with original account that my ban will never expire.

anyway, I just thought to tell you all - you have been great support and help. Special thanks to nogutsnoglory, uptown, threestrikes and elegirl. I will share more and if the website allows me to.


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## Uptown

That's really strange, Shame. If no explanation was provided, you may want to ask one of the moderators about it. In any event, I'm glad to see you back.


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## ShameLessLover

Thank you everyone for your support. I can not log in to TAM from my work place, each time it says my IP address is banned. I did try to contact the administrator but did not get a response. But it looks like I can log-in from home. However, I try not to visit this site from HOME due to obvious reason. So, now you know why could not I give an update. I do have to say that TAM has been a great support. Makes/made me feel empowered when I am/was at the bottom.

@Uptown:
Since, my last post, I did meet with a clinical psychologist (CP) - we had five sessions. I have to say it was not very useful. Probably, the reason is CP cannot comment or diagnose my W based on my version of the story. CP told me to work on my part such as putting boundary and stuff. But I do not think it has ever worked in my case. I did try to tell my W a few times about the things which hurt me. But it always ended up in a war and I have to retreat. I can give examples in later post if you are interested. So now, I do what I am told to. If she says its your fault - I say yes, you are right. And, so although we do not fight much, I feel like dying inside - I am emotionally drianed. This statement, which I read somewehre perfectly suit my situation: "I was concentrating on not abandoning her, no matter what she did. One day, I realized that, instead, I had abandoned myself." Everyday, I think this - I am not the same person I used to be. On a side note, I do not have courage to carry a VAR. 

I read the articles on BPDFamily and I am more regular there now - it's helpful. Thank you.

I would like to hear from ThreeStrikes/Uptown/nogutsnoglory (or anyone who are separated/divorced from a BPD homemaker involving a young child) - how has been your life after the divorce? Does life indeed get better? 

@Uptown> What does IME refer to?


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## ThreeStrikes

ShameLessLover said:


> I would like to hear from ThreeStrikes/Uptown/nogutsnoglory (or anyone who are separated/divorced from a BPD homemaker involving a young child) - how has been your life after the divorce? Does life indeed get better?
> 
> @Uptown> What does IME refer to?


Yes, my life is infinitely better.

IME= Independent Medical Exam


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## Uptown

> Uptown> What does IME refer to?


"In my experience."


ShameLessLover said:


> I did meet with a clinical psychologist (CP) - we had five sessions. I have to say it was not very useful. Probably, the reason is CP cannot comment or diagnose my W based on my version of the story.


Shame, no professional is able to provide a formal diagnosis without seeing the client. But, in one of life's catch 22s, when they do evaluate a BPDer in their office, they generally are loath to tell that client the name of her disorder (for her own protection). The irony, then, is that your best opportunity to get a candid opinion, when high functioning BPD is involved, is to see your own psychologist -- who has never seen or treated her. Of course, he cannot render a formal diagnosis but he certainly can say "it sure sounds to me like you may be dealing with...." If you are interested, I provide several reasons why therapists routinely withhold the BPD diagnosis from high functioning BPDers and their spouses in my post at Loath to Diagnose.


> CP told me to work on my part such as putting boundary and stuff. But I do not think it has ever worked in my case.


IME, if she has strong BPD traits, your enforcing strong personal boundaries will protect you from abuse and will allow you to start acting like your true self once again -- but likely will result in her walking out on you. BPDers will tolerate your presence in the marriage only as long as you continue to play the role of savior (on those rare days when she's splitting you white) or the role of persecutor (when she's splitting you black). By playing one of those roles, you're "validating" a BPDer's false self image of always being "The Victim." Once you stop playing those roles (i.e., stop walking on eggshells around her), she likely will have little use for you -- if she actually has strong BPD traits.


> If she says its your fault - I say yes, you are right. And, so although we do not fight much, I feel like dying inside - I am emotionally drained.


Yes, that is exactly how you should be feeling, i.e., like you've forgotten who the real you is -- like you are vanishing. As I said earlier, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's DSM-5, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they are losing their minds. This is why psychologists see far more abused spouses -- coming in to find out if they are going crazy -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.


> On a side note, I do not have courage to carry a VAR.


That's because you're not allowing yourself to be in touch with the righteous anger you feel when being abused. Eventually, all that hurt you are experiencing will turn to anger and you will find it easy to carry a VAR -- if you're still living with her by that time. There is a reason that "anger" is in the arsenal of basic survival mechanisms and ego defenses that we all have from early childhood. Anger motivates us to act to protect ourselves. 


> How has been your life after the divorce? Does life indeed get better?


Yes, absolutely! That, at least was my experience. Although I live alone now, I have the great joy of knowing what will be behind my front door when I go home after work. Sadly, during my 15 year marriage, I never had the understanding about BPD that you already have. I therefore would still be married to her if she had not had me arrested and thrown into jail for three days on a bogus charge. 

In hindsight, I now regard that jail experience as one of the best things to ever happen to me. It woke me up and gave me a powerful incentive to figure out what was wrong by reading on the Internet, eventually finding the BPD forums. What precipitated that incident was the fact that, during our last two years, I started building stronger personal boundaries and enforcing them. 

My stronger boundaries scared the devil out of my exW, leading her to mistakenly believe I was going to abandon her. She therefore decided to jump the gun and abandon me before I could do it to her. She accomplished that by having me arrested and, while I was in jail, obtaining an 18-month R/O barring me from returning to my own home.


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## 6301

ShamelssLover said:


> My wife does have a great fear of abandonment. Just yesterday, she asked me: can I ask something? Hesitatingly, I said okay. When She says something like that- I can see something is coming. So she asks: "Will you ever leave me?". I did not want to answer the question.
> 
> You should have answered her. You should have told her that first and foremost her behavior is unacceptable, she lacks manners and her lack of respect to others is deplorable and she needs help. I would let her know that if she wants the help, then you'll get it for her but you will not tolerate her attitude and uncontrollable tongue and if it continues, you will leave her and her alone to go back to her home country.
> 
> There is no excuse for behavior like that. If she refuses the help then by all means unload her.


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## ShameLessLover

Thanks Threestrikes/Uptown/6301

I read the link "Loath to Diagnose" - it makes total sense. I remember, after listening to my story, CP asked me: "why exactly you are here - Do you want to improve the relationship or get a divorce." I said: "If I had to go for divorce, I would n't come to you, I would go to an attorney. I am here to understand my situation better. I want to know what I am dealing with. I am here to find ways to be happy again." And then that followed by 4 more sessions. 

I feel like I am going through a process. There was a time when I would get anxious, feel ramping up heartbeats and headache just thinking about leaving her or living together. I still do feel all that, but I am getting better and I feel that there is HOPE - I can leave. Probably, I am waiting for something big to happen which would help me take this big step (something similar to kicking out my M in the middle of night). 

I do feel blessed that I know about BPD now. I did not know it 6-7 months back. Nothing made sense back then. If I knew we would not have planned the baby - (although I love my child and will always love no matter what- she is precious). On another note, if I would not have found the TAM group, I would have certainly became crazier - a guy who dies of stroke in his 40s. Regarding the VAR: I feel what if I get caught? All hell will broke. Probably, I need to be more gutsy.

@6301: I have tried that. I have said that I cannot live like this . If you will do this next time, I will just leave. I have also left for a night - twice. It was bad both the times. W will keep crying and would call me like 100 times, yes 100 times. I would get like over 50 missed calls. Picture this : A 33 yrs old woman is crying like the world has fallen down. Reason is that she THINKS that her H does not love her, or her H does not take her side of whatever **** she does/say. Picture that it's the middle of night and we both are really tired. Now imagine that an infant is also crying and she would not stop crying. W would look at the crying baby and say in a very sad and distraught tone: "there is no one in the whole world for us. My parents are dead and your father will leave us anyday he wants and marry another woman. He does not love us. You and me are all alone in this world." On top of this, if I am lucky she would not get violent or start slapping herself or banging her head. I have lived those moments many times - that’s why I stopped arguing or tell her how I feel. If there were no baby - I would have left. If I leave now - I know my W will make the situation so vulnerable and my D will be neglected. 

I have also tried to explain things when we are calm - things that hurt me. But it will end up as I am taking sides and I do not love her enough to understand her feelings. 

These days, I am being treated that nothing ever happened between us. W thinks - I was just under influence of my M and now I am getting better. In her world - her life is perfect. My M had an evil spell on me - which is fading (as I do not fight/argue now). Although, I can make her angry in like a second - if I want to. Then another war would begin.


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## Uptown

ShameLessLover said:


> I have also tried to explain things when we are calm - things that hurt me. But it will end up as I am taking sides and I do not love her enough to understand her feelings.


Yes, Shame, that is my experience too. A BPDer is filled with so much anger and shame that they are always just ten seconds away from erupting into a rage. It therefore makes no difference whether she is calm or not when you try to discuss a sensitive matter. Within seconds, you will be confronted by a raging child with the intelligence, cunning, and body strength of a full grown adult.


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## frusdil

I don't know what the answer is to your problem, because there is a baby involved. If you had no children I'd say get out now.

You CANNOT leave that baby with her, for any amount of time. If you leave you have to be sure that you will get full custody of your daughter. If you can't be sure of that, then you can't leave.


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## ShameLessLover

Thanks guys for your posts. I read them over and over - it's empowering. I do not think any friend in my real life has any clue about BPD, so although they sympathize with my situation, they do not really understand what I deal with. Most of them are like –“it will get better with time, Things will change”. And I would say “True, things will change – because I will no longer be ME if I continued.”


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## EleGirl

Do you have one or two close friends or family members who you can teach some about BPD? Having someone in your life who can be there to talk to and be supportive could go a long way in helping you.

I have a lot of empathy for you and hope that you are free from this turmoil very soon. What is happening to you it not right. You should not have to deal this.

Who did your wife live with before you two married? Surely her parents know that she is not well.


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## ShameLessLover

EleGirl said:


> Do you have one or two close friends or family members who you can teach some about BPD? Having someone in your life who can be there to talk to and be supportive could go a long way in helping you.
> 
> I have a lot of empathy for you and hope that you are free from this turmoil very soon. What is happening to you it not right. You should not have to deal this.
> 
> Who did your wife live with before you two married? Surely her parents know that she is not well.


I have a few friends with whom I talk to when I need to. I have started bringing BPD thing to them –I have shared the articles on BPDfamily with a few. But it would take time before they could understand what I mean. It’s easy for me to understand as I deal with one (although my W is undiagnosed but reading about BPD feels like my story).

My wife lived with her uncle’s family before she got married. Her parents are no more. She only has a sister –I have never met her and they are not on talking terms. In short, she really has no one to take care of her. She left uncle’s family (who are in another country) to be with me, and I do not think they genuinely care about my W. She was like a burden- and now she is my responsibility. About 9 months back, when I did not understand about this disorder and I did not know what’s going on in my life, I tried to reach each and every one in her family for support. I and my family are painted so black by my W that her uncle’s family did not even believe anything I say. They do know this though that my W has always been stubborn and she can be angry very quick. But they did not believe any of her misbehavior/incidents I said. Her uncle did say: “She just gets angry but she is a nice person. It’s like you are a teacher and you are dealing with a bad student. It’s a teacher’s real test when he deals with a bad student and transform him/her into a good one (yes he said that to me over phone – I am not making it up).” Further he said: “You guys are no longer kids- you are couple, you have to solve your issues by yourself.”

I have not talked to them since. And I do not plan to. 

My W do talk to them almost daily – which I think is a good thing. I am glad she has someone to talk to and understand her.


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## Bobby5000

I can't support a lot of your wife's behavior particularly the nasty things she said. 

That said, if a woman is pregnant, it is HER decision about who stays in the house. In our family, one woman kicked her own mother out when the mom had one too many comment about how to do things. I know cultures are different. 

I know my daughter-in-law has a small house and while she was breast-feeding it was a little funny, make a big thing and leave, sit and watch. Does she cook dinner for us. In any case, we now stay at an area hotel and things are easy and we are almost always welcome. 

You can decide whether to talk to her. One basic problem is that she does not voice her feelings and simply screams and says nasty things. For that reason, because of a lack of self-control and respect, the marriage may not survive.


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## probswithwife

ShameLessLover,

I accidentally stumbled upon this thread. I am sorry to hear the situation you are in, especially with a baby. I read through the whole and I could relate to your problems.

If I am right we are both from the same country. I do not mean to hijack your thread. But I have been going through similar problems myself. You may find some of my older posts.

Today, after 1 year of struggling I told my wife I want to separate. She hates everybody unconditionally from my country. Like your parents my parents struggled to give me a good life. My wife did not even want to allow me to bring them here once. Slowly I lost many of my friends. She has ZERO friends. She does not talk to her parents nor does she have relatives. After reading your thread now I think my wife might have BPD. She is depressed and suffers from insomnia. There has never been a gray area for her. After 15 sessions of MC we have no progress.

She did go through abuse during childhood which I came to know 2 years after our wedding (we dated 3 years). She is refusing to accept that she has victim mentality and be pretty strong and offensive towards people who try to help her.

Long story short. I can relate to some of your problems. But I do not have a baby. Today I told her I still care for your but I may not be in love with her. She told me I am abandoning her tough times. But I have no confidence that our underlying problems (her hatred towards people and negativity) will go away. And now I feel really bad. Not sure if she is manipulating me or if I am being selfish. She does have a good job, green card, and we are financially good. 

Again, sorry for hijacking your thread. I logged in today to write about what happened today and stumbled upon your thread. I hope you and your family are doing OK. I have to figure out my next steps. If you are closeby may be we can meet/talk someday? Good luck!


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## Uptown

probswithwife said:


> I think my wife might have BPD.


PWW, I'm sorry to hear that you believe your W is exhibiting strong BPD traits. To avoid hijacking Shame's thread, I just posted a response in your Abandoning Her Thread.


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## ShameLessLover

@probswithwife: Sorry, that you are here and in a similar situation. Please, whatever you do, do not get her pregnant. It’s a hell out there. I feel like I have changed so much that I do not like my face in the mirror. It sucks. I want to quit but i) baby’s innocent face and ii) her total inability to be independent- comes in my way. I know that she will not be able to take care of herself or our baby – and baby will suffer. W's whole world revolves around me – I feel that I have no room to breathe – it’s a very bad feeling. I am in total control of her.

I have had so many episodes: just last week, my wife came into the room I was sleeping, at 4:30 AM in the morning and started to cry (like a 5 yr old will do if she does not get her toy) and kept blaming me for everything – from how I have made her so miserable and how I have ruined her life - everything. Shouting/crying/banging her head on the floor – went for an hour. My eyes were closed and I was praying to god – “Please help me”. Reason of all this: I got angry on some things in the evening and I said : if she does not shut up, I will take the baby and just leave. I can go in detail but I will stop here. I do try to not react over 95% of the time. I do what I am told to do. I have to be honest about one thing, although i do what i am told to - i rarely smile. My face reflects sadness which makes her angry. But I just cannot fake it.

I see many good things in your situation and if I were you, I would be planning to quit. I) You do not have a baby. Ii)Your wife works –so she is financially independent. It indicates that she can drive around and she can take care of herself. Iii) She is treating her folks same as yours. It sounds to me that some of her family member will also be able to understand you.

Before I knew about BPD, I was so lost, confused, sad, hurt and depressed because her behavior made ZERO sense to me. But after learning about BPD, my W’s behavior makes sense to me. Thanks to Uptown and ThreeStrikes. Although, I am still sad and hurt and all that, but now I know, it’s not ME, it’s HER. I am not a GOD who can fix her. So either sulk it up or Leave. So I am sulking it up for now. But I so want to be happy again.

Good Luck to Us.

Hope good days with happiness ahead.


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## Diesel_Bomber

Good luck shame. I've been slowly learning how to cope with a bpd spouse. Dr Jekyll Mr Hyde crap along with hating my family....stay strong man, its not easy but don't let it break you, that's all they are after, its to break you down. Be cool, calm, assertive, and collective when dealing with crazy. Seems like there's plenty of people here to help and very knowledgeable...best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ShameLessLover

Diesel_Bomber said:


> Good luck shame. I've been slowly learning how to cope with a bpd spouse. Dr Jekyll Mr Hyde crap along with hating my family....stay strong man, its not easy but don't let it break you, that's all they are after, its to break you down. Be cool, calm, assertive, and collective when dealing with crazy. Seems like there's plenty of people here to help and very knowledgeable...best of luck to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Thanks Diesel! I read your story. I wish you a great life ahead full of fun and Happiness!


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## ShameLessLover

I have my bad days and normal days. I thought to share one of my normal days -when we do not fight. It would also reflect good sides of my W.

Her World: it's perfect. She will be all chirpy about her life/home and our daughter -it's perfect. Often, I get this - "let us go somewhere for a trip? XYZ went there- they always go - why should not we?" Life could not be better. Any body who would see us together will think :"you are a lucky man to be married with your W. she genuinely cares about you". She will clean the apartment - everything is organized. She will not let me do the dishes or laundry - "You are tired after long hours at work - you should take rest". While at work, I get calls at least twice about what I want to eat tonight and she will cook accordingly. Almost every time I would say - "please cook anything you like." I will get calls for every little thing such as if she is going for a walk with the baby, or the office guy came for maintenance, or our daughter is crying - I am in the loop for everything.

Every evening while wrapping at work. Our conversation will be something like this- yes, daily.
She: "What are you doing?"
Me: "Just working"
She: "when will you come home"
Me: "About 7 PM"
She: "Will you reach by 7 or will you start from work at 7"
Me: I will reach by 7.

She knows that I am at work and I come home at about 7 PM daily. So what's the point of these questions? But I think it's just a wife thingy . Again, it shows how much she cares about me - any of you would think that. That’s what everyone who knows us think - I am the lucky one that she married me.

Often W would say: "You and our daughter are my life - I do not need anything else. I cannot live without you". I will look at her and say nothing and later I would feel bad about it- in a way, I am being rude/cruel to her. Every time, on any little occasion, I will be in pressure/forced to smile on camera. So, that she can put those pictures on FB and send it to her family to show - what a happy couple we are! Another argument will wait, if I do not LIKE that picture on FB. 

My world: I think about all the episodes and her tantrums - its on my mind 24x7. I am sad mostly. I am sad because of all the hurtful episodes. I am sad because I am living her dream on the expense of mine. I am sad because I know how angry and cold and mean she can get. I am sad because I know how much emotional immature she is (she can cry for hours if she gets the feeling that "her H does not love her"). I am sad because I can never talk to her like an adult and share my dreams. I am sad because I know how fake she is (she has talked $hit about almost all my friend/family behind their back - anyone is a good friend till he/she agrees with my W). I am sad because the one thing which I want to do is just go to home to my folks and stay there for a month without any contact with my wife - but I cannot do. I am sad because I cannot do what I like - such as bringing my family for a trip or so OR ask for my parents support in raising our kid. I am sad when I see a little child with their grand parents - I cannot give that moment to my child. I am sad because I do not think I will be ever able to tell my child that there are people beyond your parents who are your family and they love you. I am sad because I have to think twice before I want to call anyone (family or friends) from my own home . I am sad because I wanted to attend my cousin's wedding but I could not go (W would not allow me to bring my child for my family to see - so I cancelled our trip - that would have been my child's first trip). I have no life beyond my wife. I am sad because all my little dreams are being crashed.

So, when my W see my sad face. She would say: "Why you look so sad all the time? What happened to you. Did something happen at work?" Sometimes she would say: "you and your whole family has sad face." She would add : "You should be happy. You have a great career. your wife is so beautiful (smiles) and she loves you so much. I do not understand why you have this face." "You should share with me everything. Did any one say anything to you." "I cook for you, I clean the house. I do laundry, take care of baby. I am always doing stuff for you but you are never happy with me."

Refer to my previous responses about why I do not share my innermost feelings with my wife, because, no matter what, it will be either "You are not matured enough to understand my feelings - you need a class on relationships. " OR "you do not love me enough to understand me". I always offer to do daily chores at home, sometimes I do laundry and dishes but most of the time I am told not to do.

I still Hope/Wish that I am wrong about her. Maybe I am looking for little happiness. If you think, its me - I can change myself. I hope to see your comments.


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## Uptown

ShameLessLover said:


> She knows that I am at work and I come home at about 7 PM daily. So what's the point of these questions? But I think it's just a wife thingy.


Perhaps so, Shame. If your W is a BPDer, however, the frequent purposeless phone calls likely are due to her limited ability to perceive "object constancy." That is, she has great difficulty perceiving other peoples' personalities and feelings to be fairly constant from day to day and week to week. 

When we are infants, we first learn object constancy when we realize that mother doesn't disappear into thin air when she is out of sight. Then we learn that she doesn't vanish when leaving the room. As we mature, we eventually realize that people are fairly stable and predictable, i.e., that they exhibit a high degree of object constancy. 

In contrast, untreated BPDers are too emotionally immature to see that constancy. Because they are so unstable that they cannot even trust their own feelings and behavior to be constant, they cannot trust that other people will be any better at it. The result is that a BPDer will tend to have great difficulty feeling she is an important part of your life when you are away from home, especially when you are out of town. This, at least, is my understanding of it, Shame.


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## applecider

Well, the fact that your W kicked out of your mother in the middle of night isn't really acceptable. 

However, I was wondering, if she did agree in the first place as to your family staying at your house. I realized some cultural difference when it comes to how close you would want to be with your family or friends. For some people, having someone even in laws in their house too long are way too much to bear. 

Especially, after I hear the story how she lost her father and mother, I feel very sympathy because I understand how difficult it is to see other people who still have parents around. She probably wanted her parents to see her child as well but it will never ever come true. You are lucky enough to have parent but if you put your family first before your W, I do understand how she behaves irrationally.


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## ShameLessLover

applecider said:


> Well, the fact that your W kicked out of your mother in the middle of night isn't really acceptable.
> 
> However, I was wondering, if she did agree in the first place as to your family staying at your house. I realized some cultural difference when it comes to how close you would want to be with your family or friends. For some people, having someone even in laws in their house too long are way too much to bear.
> 
> Especially, after I hear the story how she lost her father and mother, I feel very sympathy because I understand how difficult it is to see other people who still have parents around. She probably wanted her parents to see her child as well but it will never ever come true. You are lucky enough to have parent but if you put your family first before your W, I do understand how she behaves irrationally.


Hi applecider. Yes, my W did agree to invite my M to stay with us. Probably, she did it halfheartedly but she did. We would talk about how we need someone from the family to get support. She was going through pregnancy related complicacy (complete bed rest after 6 mo of pregnancy) and I was very stressed out due to 10-12 h @ work and then taking care of my W (she was only allowed to go use restroom). So, we were excited that M's presence will be great help. However, W could not bear at all the sight of my M. Things went sour from day 1. Reason: "in her mind, she felt abandoned by me and that made her do/say $hitty stuffs. She thought my M is slowly getting full control over me (not true) and M needs to be removed from this place as soon as possible. In her mind, her territory (my love for my W) was under attack and she needed to defend it at any cost. It was a war for her."

I do feel sorry about that her parents died. I cannot imagine such a loss -it would be heartbreaking. When I first knew about it, I had a huge respect for her that she stood tall after everything that happened. I thought how courageous and matured she was. I would wonder that such incidents make people grow fast. But, having no parents does not mean that one should go misbehave with other's parents. Between, my parents have never been dependent on me - they did give me the life I have now.

Anyway, I do not think PARENTS/Family are issue here. Issue is deep down. Issue is not knowing the boundary. Issue is not having a minimum respect for other's happiness. Issue is not even realizing that your action could hurt others. My M was just a scapegoat. All my family are in another country and it's just me and my W live here. I wonder what would happen if we all were in the same city.

Once, we know what's the problem/issue in a relationship - there is half success right there. The other half is addressing that issue constructively. In my case, my W would not even consider that she ever has done anything wrong -what she did was totally justified. There comes the problem - see, I am not saying I am perfect but I am ready to move a step closer. But I need that hope of she moving closer too (which sadly I do not have: BPD explains it).

I also read your story. Divorce is not a solution in your case. Your fear/issue/problem will remain even if you divorce. The solution is within you. Only close friends or therapist or self determination (positive outlook) could help. Everybody's parents have to go one day to outer space. Some who are loved more go sooner than others -we all are mortals.


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## CH

She's got major issues, you need to get her to see someone. But in her condition she'll probably have a melt down and go nuclear on you. BTW, don't ever leave her alone with the kid when she's mad IMO.

From how she wants you to alienate your family (disown them) and it be only you and her speaks volumes. I'm afraid that if you should start taking the kid 1st over her that could also cause some problems. Seen some of these type of girls, big time problems. It's just them and no one else. Eventually, you'll even have to kick your friends to the curb because they're taking your time away from her.


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## EnjoliWoman

Stumbled across this... I had a similar situation and we had a child. I knew something wasn't right and couldn't define it, but finally had to leave. It was during an issue about child custody where I finally asked for a court ordered psychological evaluation for parental fitness. The court granted my request and we were both ordered to attend sessions with a court-appointed psychologist until the psychologist said she was done. After 8 months of regular visits by both of us, I finally got the report and diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder - on the same spectrum as BPD but has the twist of being non-correctable. 

For the safety and well-being of your child, I suggest you DO start recording (I recorded a tantrum that was directed at me AND our daughter but he found it) so you can share that with a professional. 

I know you did not envision being a full time single parent, but when we have children, we commit to doing what is best for them regardless of how difficult. 

You can't force her to seek help now, but you CAN force her to go based on your concern regarding her ability to parent. If she then gets the diagnosis, she MIGHT recognize her issues and be willing to go to therapy and take any necessary medications. If she is willing to work at it, your relationship could potentially be saved. You can always so this after you file for divorce but you don't have to finalize the divorce if she agrees to seek help.

Something you may want to consider.


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## ShameLessLover

Thanks CH/Enjoliwoman. Getting her to see a therapist is not an option. I have asked her for counselling in the past - but it just agitated her. In her mind, she is as emotionally healthy as it gets. She does not think there is ANY issue in our life/relationship - she thinks " her husband is too nice (when she splits me white) and so he got under spell/control of his family and now he is getting better (as I rarely argue now)". Believe me, she can give us a lecture on relationships. 

I agree that I should not leave my child when she is mad because when my W is angry she gets very vulnerable. That’s one of the reason I do not try to get her angry. But I have so much anger in me, it gets poisonous with time, so sometimes I do blow up (I get irritated on small things these days because of this). I am really not sure how to deal with it. 

I already feel that I am losing my family and friends. It's a very subtle process: one does not realize it but relationship with friends and family fades away with time - I know its happening and it is kind of scary (especially because I am a very people person). Although, I try harder now to keep in touch with them.



EnjoliWoman said:


> It was during an issue about child custody where I finally asked for a court ordered psychological evaluation for parental fitness. The court granted my request and we were both ordered to attend sessions with a court-appointed psychologist until the psychologist said she was done. After 8 months of regular visits by both of us, I finally got the report and diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder - on the same spectrum as BPD but has the twist of being non-correctable.


During those 8 months, did you guys stay together? It will be scary if I have to live with my W during a divorce case. 8 months of sessions - it must have cost a lot?



EnjoliWoman said:


> You can't force her to seek help now, but you CAN force her to go based on your concern regarding her ability to parent.


Can you elaborate? I do not think Therapy is an option in my case.


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## ShameLessLover

Bobby5000 said:


> if a woman is pregnant, it is HER decision about who stays in the house. In our family, one woman kicked her own mother out when the mom had one too many comment about how to do things. I know cultures are different.


Thanks Bobby for the comment. Whatever happened during W's pregnancy - I am passed that phase. I was (am still) hurt but I can get through this. Though I have come to conclusion that the issue is deep down and M was just a scapegoat. Still today, when all my family members are in another country, I can get my W mad in a second. And if I want, I can make her say really nasty things. I have grown in last a few months - and I can kind of guess where our arguments could lead to. So, I do not say/argue much these days. Even if I am angry, I try to be calm as much as possible; occasional outbursts happen. Another things that $ucks - I am losing my close friends. Now, they think twice befroe dropping by or calling me or asking for any help.




Bobby5000 said:


> You can decide whether to talk to her. One basic problem is that she does not voice her feelings and simply screams and says nasty things. For that reason, because of a lack of self-control and respect, the marriage may not survive.


Wish I could talk to her. It's never a discussion - it will always turn into an argument. And it would be an argument, which will make no sense to me. It's like you were asked to write an essay on NewYork. And you start with donkey has four legs and 2 ears - no connection. My head starts to spin, damn. Sometimes, I do wish that I could talk/say all the things which i can write here without any fear. I envy the couples who can do that - talk like adults and address the issues wihtout defending each and every word which comes from other's mouth - and, draw THE line when/where to SHUT UP.


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## Uptown

ShameLessLover said:


> Wish I could talk to her. It's never a discussion - it will always turn into an argument.


Shame, if your W is a BPDer as you suspect, it will be impossible to have a rational discussion about any sensitive subject -- and nearly all subjects will be sensitive. That's the way it is when you're living with someone who has the emotional development of a young child. As you said last September, _"If I just assume that I married 5 yrs old one, my whole married life make sense to me."_



> I envy the couples who can do that - talk like adults and address the issues wihtout defending each and every word.


If she is a BPDer, you two are not a "couple" in any meaningful sense. Instead of having a husband/wife relationship, you essentially have a parent/child relationship.


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## turnera

Shameless, YOU should be seeing a therapist. If you're going to stay, you need professional help in how to deal with her sickness.


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## Uptown

turnera said:


> Shameless, YOU should be seeing a therapist. If you're going to stay, you need professional help in how to deal with her sickness.


Turnera, he saw a MC once by himself but did not find him helpful. Then, between last November and March, he went to a psychologist five times by himself. That psychologist refused to venture an opinion on what is wrong with the W but did tell Shameless how to establish boundaries to protect himself. Shameless reports, however, that he did not find the boundary guidance helpful. 

If I understand him correctly, the problem is that the boundaries are useless if he doesn't enforce them because his W simply ignores them. Yet, if he does enforce them, she will go into tirades that pose a risk to his young daughter. 

My experience is that, if his W really does have strong BPD traits, she will not tolerate the new boundaries and will throw temper tantrums whenever he tries to enforce them. Enforcement therefore will necessarily escalate, ending up requiring him to leave -- which he's still unwilling to do because his daughter is so young. 

At this point, then, Shameless seems to be walking on eggshells to keep the home as peaceful as possible for his daughter. I therefore share your opinion, Tunera, that he could benefit from professional guidance, as I suggested last September. I am hopeful he will find a psychologist who is more helpful than the one he saw. Like any other group of professionals, psychologists vary greatly in their skill sets.


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## turnera

The other thing you can do is gather evidence of harm she may pose to her child, and then get a divorce and take your child with you.


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## ShameLessLover

Uptown said:


> _"If I just assume that I married 5 yrs old one, my whole married life make sense to me."_


Haha, I could not be more honest, long before I knew about BPD and its traits, only thing that made sense to me was being married to a 5 yr old. I got to this conclusion within 1st month of living together. My own experience has made me think - Marriage is the most overrated thing society has invented. 



turnera said:


> Shameless, YOU should be seeing a therapist. If you're going to stay, you need professional help in how to deal with her sickness.





Uptown said:


> I therefore share your opinion, Tunera, that he could benefit from professional guidance, as I suggested last September. I am hopeful he will find a psychologist who is more helpful than the one he saw.


Thank you Turnera/Uptown. I have been thinking about going back to seeing a therapist. Although, I am not very positive about it, I think I should see a T to keep my sanity in check. Also, so that I do not lose the meaning of happiness.

The day-to-day life I live these days - is as normal as it gets for anyone who has not seen my W angry. So, it makes sense to me when I see people living in this type of relationships for years and decades before calling it quit. One possible reason is, we the spouse sacrifice our happiness- we try not to say/do things or go to the place we like or visit a family/friend we are close to - because we learn how not to upset our BPD spouses. I think I need to see a T to break this - although I am not sure how to. I do not have the courage because I know how bad it can get to enforce such boundaries.

Now W has new set of friends with who we meet or hang out. In her opinion, old friends were/are too selfish - they always used us. If she is in bad mood - it will come down to me - I am the reason those friends now ignore my W.



turnera said:


> The other thing you can do is gather evidence of harm she may pose to her child, and then get a divorce and take your child with you.


I have talked to attorneys in past - getting full custody would be very difficult. Sometimes, I wonder it's slightly better to be in a relationship with a narcissist or a bipolar. Because, it's way easier to see the true behavior of the person. Understanding/exposing BPD behavior is a major challenge.


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## turnera

That's why I said to keep a record of activities/actions. If you have a notebook full of harmful behavior, abandonment, bad words, threats to the kids, whatever, it could mean the difference. You're not going anywhere so you should be keeping the journal anyway and see if it leads anywhere.


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## ShameLessLover

Yesterday, we had an argument around mid night . She called me from the bedroom (I was in living room) that I did not put the baby blanket (baby sleeps with us and we put the blanket on top of the bed for extra cushion for the baby). She called me 2-3 times. I went in - was irritated - said: "you treat me like a servant. If baby is asleep - why can't you put her on the side of the bed and put the blanket yourself? I did put the blanket there. And came out to the living room.

A little background - I do appreciate her taking care of the baby. But I also go to work. I worked 10AM-8 PM yesterday and then took care of the baby till midnight. During this time - baby was with me except when W was feeding her - I did diaper change, got her medicines and just other routine things. Well, W did do some work in the kitchen and got our dinner ready and then went to surf internet. Her taking breaks - is acceptable as she works hard during the day and also takes care of the baby in the night. But my point is, I also do what's the best I can do. And when I am doing something - I rarely try to take her support. But if I am around, and if she is doing something for the baby - I cannot sit. I will be constantly asked for -_ can you bring this? Can you bring that?_ So, I was irritated last night when she kept calling me form the bed room.

Well, what happens next? The hell was broke. It went into same vicious cylce of arguments. It started with I am an @$$ and does not do anything for her. That I have ruined her life. I asked/requested to stop it. I said: if one of us is angry we should not discuss and one should time out. But it went on. Same things went on - that whatever I am doing - I am doing because my mamma told me. Everything was repeated which I have already mentioned in my previous posts. 

This time, I was tried to keep my tone down and yet enforce the boundary. I said: "You have to draw a line where you say nothing about my parents, or my upbringing, or anything about any of the family members. If you will keep saying stuff, I will leave. I cannot live like this all my life. You have to STOP it.

Argument continued, after a while - I picked up my work bag and left the apartment. I spent the night @ one of my couple friends. The one thing I did this time - I switched off my phone as soon as I came out of the apartment. I did not want to see it keep ringing. I did not want to be emotionally blackmailed. I switched on the phone this morning to check if what's there. These SMS was sent over the night:

_"She is a b1tc#"
"Don't cme now, plz find someother accommodation for urself.. I can't live with u now.. This attitude is just unsafe for d baby.. 
"Ur mom is a devil .. U hav to take her out of our life otherwise I don't want to b wid u .. Plz leave us .. "
"Dare u enter home now.. "
"I will not open d door for u now .. U r a dog.. "
"I will call d police.. "
"I can't stay wid u now.. Just stay away from us. I will not let u inside d house.. "_

Then I got this in the afternoon today. 
_" Where r u ?" _


I did not call - did not reply to her sms. Phone is still off. Why? Because I know she will yell, cry and shout at me - I have no sanity left to deal with it. I miss my 10 mo old D though - I am not sure how she is. This is the longest I have been outside my apartment.

What do I plan to do now? I have no idea.
The only thing - I refuse to accept her behavior as it is. Issue has to be addressed. But I am so confused - not sure what I am doing is right or not. Not sure what to do. Help.


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## Uptown

ShameLessLover said:


> What do I plan to do now? I have no idea.... Not sure what to do. Help.


Seek custody of your DD and bail from this toxic relationship. Follow the cat.

catfalling.gif


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## Openminded

I'm sorry you are in this situation. And there's an added problem. You realize her very serious instability will affect your daughter, right? I hope you aren't going to have any other children. You and your daughter are in for a very difficult life. 

Was yours an arranged marriage? If not, how did you meet her?


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## ShameLessLover

Openminded said:


> I'm sorry you are in this situation. And there's an added problem. You realize her very serious instability will affect your daughter, right? I hope you aren't going to have any other children. You and your daughter are in for a very difficult life.
> 
> Was yours an arranged marriage? If not, how did you meet her?


I realize that. I do not know what life has it for my DD. I am scareed.

No, it was not an arranged marriage. We met though a website. We got married within 1 month of first meet up. Reason - I could not find any good reason to say No.


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## ShameLessLover

Meanwhile I have been getting a # of SMS - very disturbing and scary. Not sure what she is going to do - she got zero friends.

_"M eating ibuprofen pills u take care of Daughter , that's wat u wantd I should do to myself..right.."_

_I am calling 911.._

_you left us - we will leave today somewhere I dont know_


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## turnera

Call 911 right now, say she threatened to kill herself, she's alone with a baby.


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## PieceOfSky

turnera said:


> Call 911 right now, say she threatened to kill herself, she's alone with a baby.







Call 911 now, just like Turnera said. 



Tell them her cell phone number.


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## turnera

Have you called 911 yet?


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## ShameLessLover

Thank you everyone. My apology - I was not in right state to give you an update. I do thank you for your concern and for being there. 

After a weekend full of drama, I returned to the apartment on Monday - spent two nights away - that was the longest I was out. I did not dial 911 that night. Although very scared, I had feeling that W was just trying to bring me back - now, sometime I wished I should have called. But imaging cops at home was scary and I chickened out. I also set an appointment with the attorney for that Monday but I cancelled it after I came back to apartment. Looking at W who could cry, or argue or yell any minute and imagining how would my daughter live with her - scared the hell out of me. W was crying as she thought I am such a jerk for leaving her alone at home and I have destroyed her life. I was silent - I really did not care what my W was saying but I got teary eyes just looking at my Daughter. D was smiling when she saw me after 2 days - it saddened me what 's for her in future. All these moments made me call off the visit to attorney . Although I found my self close to the edge and was so ready to end this marriage - I did not have guts to go ahead. I felt weak. I thought of all the misfortunes it would bring to my daughter.

Me and my W did have a few exchange of emails before I returned. I tried to put some boundaries again. But I know I am back to where I was - life of emptiness - before it would blow up again. After a week, for wife - it feels like - nothing ever happened.


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## PieceOfSky

ShameLessLover said:


> Thank you everyone. My apology - I was not in right state to give you an update. I do thank you for your concern and for being there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After a weekend full of drama, I returned to the apartment on Monday - spent two nights away - that was the longest I was out. I did not dial 911 that night. Although very scared, I had feeling that W was just trying to bring me back - now, sometime I wished I should have called. But imaging cops at home was scary and I chickened out. I also set an appointment with the attorney for that Monday but I cancelled it after I came back to apartment. Looking at W who could cry, or argue or yell any minute and imagining how would my daughter live with her - scared the hell out of me. W was crying as she thought I am such a jerk for leaving her alone at home and I have destroyed her life. I was silent - I really did not care what my W was saying but I got teary eyes just looking at my Daughter. D was smiling when she saw me after 2 days - it saddened me what 's for her in future. All these moments made me call off the visit to attorney . Although I found my self close to the edge and was so ready to end this marriage - I did not have guts to go ahead. I felt weak. I thought of all the misfortunes it would bring to my daughter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me and my W did have a few exchange of emails before I returned. I tried to put some boundaries again. But I know I am back to where I was - life of emptiness - before it would blow up again. After a week, for wife - it feels like - nothing ever happened.







Then change your daughter's future. Change yours. 



There are things you need to learn from this. You can if you are open to it.



How do you feel about the choices you made during this episode? Do you wonder if you should have taken different action?


----------



## ShameLessLover

PieceOfSky said:


> Then change your daughter's future. Change yours.


How?
Divorce seems to be the only option. Putting boundary is not working.

During this episode, one of the boundaries I really wanted to put is taking my D to meet my family (I have not seen them for like 2 and half years - they live in another country). The plan was to go back for like a month and let me take the baby for like 4-5 days with me -you stay with your family (both family are in 2 different states ). The conclusion was a big NO - she rejected the whole idea. To be honest, she got furious just after I came out with this plan. I was open to further compromise such as taking the baby for just like 2 days or bringing my family to another city to see the baby. But the whole proposal was rejected. Why? Because I come from the family of evils. My response - well, then I am one of them. If I do not get quiet after all this - it would be another war.



PieceOfSky said:


> There are things you need to learn from this. You can if you are open to it.


Can you elaborate - what do you mean? 



PieceOfSky said:


> How do you feel about the choices you made during this episode? Do you wonder if you should have taken different action?


I do not feel bad about the choices I made during this episode - I will do it again if the situation repeats. If you ask - that’s what I want- No - I never envisioned myself in this type of relationship, where b!tch!ing/yelling is norm, where I feel the pressure to like/love someone.

The reason I left that night was that my W has no sense of time out. At my return, she complained about me leaving her and the infant alone. I told - if baby is with her - she is her first protection. I will be always there for the baby. We need to learn when to shut up and we need to time out if one of us is angry. I did make it clear that if she trashes me again. First I will go to another room. If she follows and keep arguing/shouting - I will LEAVE again.


----------



## turnera

Shameless, you are INCAPABLE of finding any sort of fix for this by yourself. You just are incapable.

Of ALL the cases I've seen on forums with a BPD wife, not one single marriage has survived. It just can't. She WILL tear it apart. She'll either destroy herself or she'll destroy you. Either way, your baby loses out.

The only hope your baby has, well, IMO she has two hopes: One, you get a good therapist and YOU start going EVERY SINGLE WEEK. I'm serious. EVERY SINGLE WEEK for at least the next 6 months. To learn - from a professional - how to erect those boundaries, to DEAL with her BS manipulative crap that you keep falling for and backing down from that only makes things worse.

Or two, you divorce her and you raise your daughter half the time. And half the time with a sane person is better than all the time with a mentally handicapped one and a destroyed one. At least HALF the time, your baby will be living with a mentally healthy person and seeing what the healthy way to be IS.


----------



## turnera

ShameLessLover said:


> I did make it clear that if she trashes me again. First I will go to another room. If she follows and keep arguing/shouting - I will LEAVE again.


This is good. Now DO it. If you warn this but then chicken out, it will further enrage her and embolden her to be even worse.


----------



## ShameLessLover

Thanks Turnera for your posts and advice. You have been great.

@ All - I just wanted to mention that I keep reading all the posts over and over. It's a great source of Strength and Hope.


----------



## turnera

But have you DONE anything?


----------



## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> But have you DONE anything?


I am very confused these days. Something blows up - I feel so dejected and depressed - sometimes I leave and then I force myself to come back home. Then everything becomes so normal and happy for W - I try not to disturb that sanity (like my current days). I have so much anger inside me, so something again blows up. I contemplate and find myself at fault, I feel like I am the reason when things blow up - it's one of the reasons (besides the DD) why I do not take the ultimate step of leaving. For example, regarding the last time I left - I think if I would not have said -_ "I am not your servant, so do not treat me like one"_ - things would not have escalated. Although, it made her say nasty things and things went real bad and that made me leave. So, I think -I was at least 50% reason of all of that. I question myself - should that be the reason of pulling the plug? That would make me selfish. I know though- how I feel - is a cumulative affect of the last 3.5 years of marriage. 

I live day-by-day these days. If god asks me right now - what do you want ? I will say - give me a month of break and let me go to see my family. I have told my wife this when we had conversation last time in as much a nicer way as I could - _"we both are emotionally and physically tired, we both need a break. We both should go to our home country for like a month."_ The idea was let us go for a month - you go to your place and I will go to mine. I would only want to take the baby for a few days with me. She refused. Reason, she does not trust anyone in my family with the baby. Then I said: _"Okay, you keep the baby with you. I will go to my folks - you go to your folks."_ She refused. She plainly said she does not want to go back. Then I said: _"Okay you and baby live here in USA and let me go. I will make all the arrangements"_. Although hesitant but she kind of agreed. We decided that I will go sometime between Oct15- Now 15. I was happy. But, now she is trying to get a job which starts in Sep - she told me this next day. I did not say anything. So, I cannot go as per plan if she gets the job. Because I will be the one who would drive her to her work.

Now, I am waiting for 2 things: 1) Our D's first B day which is this week and I want it to pass happily, and ii) mid Aug- when she gets the confirmation if she gets the job or Not. If she gets the job, I will ask her to find out when she will have time off. If she does not get the job I will go as per my plan. But I know that things will blow up again when I would turn the plan into action - when I tell her that I am buying the ticket and I am leaving for 3-4 weeks. But I AM GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY (plan to talk to her End of August). And I will see how it goes.

So, in conclusion - I really have not done anything concrete to address the issues. Divorce is scary and putting boundaries creates a war. I am waiting for the day when I would know- it's over - and I would still be at peace even after knowing that I am divorcing her. I want to be at peace with myself first - but I do not know how/when.

Last time, when I presented these things to CP (Clinical Psychologist) I was visiting, she (CP) wanted me to put boundaries after taking W into confidence (build trust followed by put boundaries). It just did not work. I do not know how people do that! Probably, people who genuinely love their BPD wife - do that. I do not think I love her, I do not hate her either - I just do not feel anything for her - probably I feel disgusted - I find her very fake, so inauthentic , so plastic, and so full of attitude.

****************************
Why do I say that I find her so fake on a daily basis? Some of her comments which I have to listen.
1. _How do I look? I am so beautiful, am I not? A's wife is so ugly but he still loves her so much. And you do not love me. _(She is correct though - I have not said "I love you" in like over a year. I am not good @ faking smile/appreciation.)
2. _Look at me - I am so beautiful. Before I met you, I got offers from this dude/that dude who were so rich and handsome._ (We have fought over this - I will be like WTF. I did not beg you to marry me).
3. _Can you tell by just looking at her that she would be from such a wealthy family?_ (when she finds some one unattractive and from a rich family.)
4. _Look at her - you cannot tell just by looking at her if she is a PhD, or she is so ugly but she can drive a car_ (I would respond - God does not write these things on the face. Owning/driving a car is a status symbol in the country we come from.)
5. If I will ask to own up a responsibility - such as if she needs the printer @ home to work, and I will ask just go online and buy a toner yourself -her response will be :"_Do you think - I have time for this? It's your responsibility - you married me and brought me so far away - you have to do this for me"_. And my response will be -you are an educated professional - so own it up. That’s one of the example -how a small argument can become a war.
6. My list can go on and on.


**************************
Sometimes, I wonder why I have so much anger in me. I have many examples. A few here.
1. She misbehaved and treated my M badly and then kicked out of the apartment in the middle of night - I AM NOT ABLE to get over this. W has no contact with her or anyone in my family for about a year but she still can say very nasty things when she is angry. Sometimes I think - do I have to take this whole life? My M is not an angel but I admire her the way she dealt with everything - most ladies I know would not have been able to take it and would have cried - after all that, she went back all by her self (she cannot communicate or read English). 
2. I remember the next day - my M was kicked out - I had to take my W to a restaurant for dinner. She said: _"I want to go out for dinner - I am not in a good mood"._ I was so pissed but I still took her - VERY next day. I was disgusted with the attitude -no empathy - but nothing matters when she is 9 mo pregnant.


----------



## Uptown

> She (CP) wanted me to put boundaries after taking W into confidence (build trust followed by put boundaries). It just did not work. I do not know how people do that!


They don't do that if they want the marriage to last and if the spouse has strong BPD traits. An untreated BPDer desperately needs frequent validation of her false self image of always being "The Victim." She therefore will remain in the marriage only as long as you continue to play one of two roles, both of which "validate" her victim status. 

The first role is that of "The Rescuer," which implies she must be a victim or you wouldn't be making such an effort to save her. Yet, because she really doesn't want to be saved, you will find her jumping right back into the water after every time you pull her from the raging seas. What she really wants is the validation.

The other role you can play is that of "The Perpetrator," i.e., the cause of her every misfortune and misdeed. Again, the implication is that she must be "The Victim" as long as you are "The Perpetrator." Hence, by establishing and enforcing strong boundaries, you will have to stop playing both of those enabling roles. This means she likely will leave you and, if my experience is any guide, there is a good chance she will have you arrested on a bogus charge so she can evict you from your own home.


----------



## john117

The thread is quite chilling... 

My wife turned into that after 25 years of a good marriage. Adult onset BPD... My approach was to treat her exactly the same way she treated me, even worse if I could. And I did. 

Long story short, after 2-3 years of epic fights she realized she could not out BPD me. Every tantrum was met with equal - if not more - reaction... So tantrums went from once a day to once a week to once a month to a few per year. She's not 'cured'. She was worn off. 

On the negative side intimacy has left the building since her "gentling"... I'm biding my time waiting for my younger one to complete her undergrad degree then bail. 2-3 years.

I do not recommend doing my approach by the way...


----------



## jld

Have you looked at this?

Marriage and the Long-Term Borderline Relationship


----------



## Uptown

jld said:


> Have you looked at this?
> Marriage and the Long-Term Borderline Relationship


I looked at it, JLD. As I discussed in my 7/6 post, establishing strong personal boundaries can preserve your sanity but does nothing to make a BPDer relationship "successful" as this blogger claims. Moreover, his notion that BPDers will become compliant as soon as a real man steps in and establishes firm boundaries is very mistaken. 

This blog guy's basic message -- that you can save your BPDer spouse and your marriage if you only take the time to figure out what YOU are doing wrong -- is the WORST possible message to be giving to the abused spouses. It is this misguided notion (that they can somehow fix things) that keeps hundreds of millions of abused spouses trapped in toxic marriages for decades. 

This blogger -- named "Rick Reynolds" -- does "coaching" for $99 but is not a psychologist. Indeed, he doesn't even claim to have a college degree or to have attended a class on psychology. If you read his "About Me" page, you will find he has written an entire page without telling you anything. The closest he gets to describing himself is the statement, _"If it weren’t for my past relationships that I handled terribly, I wouldn’t have the *vast knowledge* nor be the *expert on relationships* that I am today – and I’m still in my 20′s." _


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Uptown said:


> I looked at it, JLD. As I discussed in my 7/6 post, establishing strong personal boundaries can preserve your sanity but does nothing to make a BPDer relationship "successful" as this blogger claims. Moreover, his notion that BPDers will become compliant as soon as a real man steps in and establishes firm boundaries is very mistaken.
> 
> This blog guy's basic message -- that you can save your BPDer spouse and your marriage if you only take the time to figure out what YOU are doing wrong -- is the WORST possible message to be giving to the abused spouses. It is this misguided notion (that they can somehow fix things) that keeps hundreds of millions of abused spouses trapped in toxic marriages for decades.
> 
> [/I]


:iagree:

Cluster B PD's ignore boundaries, or simply don't recognize them.

IMO, it's impossible to have a healthy relationship with a BPDer who isn't getting extensive counselling. And even then, the chances are slim.

One can peruse the forums at BPDFamily and read about guys who remain married to their BPD wives. Personally, they seem miserable and it's no way to live. They're beaten down, and likely have major codependent tendencies. You can see these tendencies already forming in Shameless. It's the result of living with an abuser. One loses the ability to discern normal from abnormal.

Shameless, do you see your situation improving in the future? What do you think the inevitable outcome of this relationship is?


----------



## turnera

ShameLessLover said:


> For example, regarding the last time I left - I think if I would not have said -_ "I am not your servant, so do not treat me like one"_ - things would not have escalated. Although, it made her say nasty things and things went real bad and that made me leave. So, I think -I was at least 50% reason of all of that.


SLL, here is what's going on. Have you ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? It's when you live in a bad situation so long that you lose track or reality, of what NORMAL people OUTSIDE your situation know is real, right, just, and just plain healthy. The longer you stay in a toxic environment, the less able you are to see that it IS toxic, and the more likely you are to BLAME YOURSELF for your unhappiness. No different than a woman who's being physically or mentally abused - she accepts horrible behavior and loses all faith in herself and then starts BLAMING herself for MAKING him hurt her. Sounds ridiculous, right? 

But it's no different than the situation you are in. YOU have lost all ability to see the right and the just.

Let me ask you this: Think back to when you were dating. Getting to know your wife. If she had ordered you around, told you to go to the grocery store and buy her some ice cream and some expensive wine, and then stop at the cleaners to pick up her dry cleaning. Ok? Got that?

Now assume you told her this: "I am not your servant, so do not treat me like one." What would have happened? Would she have gone off on you? Blown up? Treated you like sh*t? No. She would have either laughed if off and apologized (if she were a healthy person) or she would have at the very least SHUT UP.

Why? Because back then you weren't emotionally battered, back then you felt good enough about yourself not to believe that you have to take someone else's crap, and she would have known it. And backed down. But now, you've become so emotionally whipped that YOU can't defend yourself - and mean it - and she doesn't consider you worth defending yourself.

Proof enough that you need to be out of there.

Or at the very least, going to weekly therapy with a good psychologist.


----------



## turnera

ShameLessLover said:


> I have told my wife this when we had conversation last time *in as much a nicer way as I could* - _"we both are emotionally and physically tired, we both need a break. We both should go to our home country for like a month."_ The idea was let us go for a month - you go to your place and I will go to mine. I would only want to take the baby for a few days with me. She refused. Reason, she does not trust anyone in my family with the baby. Then I said: _"Okay, you keep the baby with you. I will go to my folks - you go to your folks."_ She refused. She plainly said she does not want to go back. Then I said: _"Okay you and baby live here in USA and let me go. I will make all the arrangements"_. Although hesitant but she kind of agreed. We decided that I will go sometime between Oct15- Now 15. I was happy. But, now she is trying to get a job which starts in Sep - she told me this next day. I did not say anything. So, I cannot go as per plan if she gets the job. Because I will be the one who would drive her to her work.


SO many things here. First, the part in bold. You have been TRAINED to be 'as nice as possible' to her to avoid her outbursts. STOP DOING THAT. Say what you want and let HER live her tantrums. Take the baby and go for a walk.

Second, do you see how many times here you ASKED her for permission? What man does that? One who's been abused, that's who. Now, the second part, in red, is you GIVING UP your own rights. You don't HAVE to ask her permission for YOU to leave. If you need a break - TAKE ONE. Ok? You've lost the ability to see that you have the RIGHT to do just about anything in life you want (outside physically hurting someone else). Stop begging her. And why do you have to drive her to work? You're not her servant, as you tried to tell her. If she wants to get a job, great - let her. On HER dime, with HER plans, that don't involve you. 

Stop being her servant.

And get into therapy!


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## john117

Hey, maybe I should dust off my undergraduate (general psych) degree and blog too !!! 

The biggest advantage you can gain with a BPD is to completely lose your emotional side and look at it strictly as if you're dealing with a 5 year old. Get rid of the self doubt, the trying to save the other person type thoughts, etc. At best, you'll arrive at a DMZ solution between North Korea and South Korea where your spouse's visits to BPD land are minimized and you have an uneasy truce. That's where I am but I have college age kids that need moms income more than they need mom.

Whether it's worth the effort with a one year old is not for me to tell. On top of BPD you have cultural and family issues to deal with so I would be very weary of keeping the status quo at your age. You are not the battle hardened non BPD spouse and there's no reason to earn the credentials.

Depending on where you live you need to think of an exit strategy - if you work crazy hours that may not work in your favor custody wise - but keep in mind the laws are generally stacked against the father. As a divorce lawyer - a very good one - told me, in my county for the father to get full custody the mother has to be "close to the psycho in Houston with the bathtub" (actual quote)...


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## turnera

I knew that woman's husband...fwiw, HE was the problem. She never would have done that if not for him.


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## jld

turnera said:


> I knew that woman's husband...fwiw, HE was the problem. She never would have done that if not for him.


And there he goes, scot-free . . .


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## turnera

More than that. He became a hero around here. Poor poor husband. Pretended to be a dutiful husband, visiting her in the hospital, for a few months. Then he divorced and remarried.


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## ShameLessLover

Uptown said:


> They don't do that if they want the marriage to last and if the spouse has strong BPD traits.


Thanks Uptown, it make sense. That explains my situation. W expects total surrender - and I refuse. I CAN so very much relate myself to both the Roles: "The Rescuer" and "The Perpetrator". I am the reason of her happiness and I am the cause of her misfortune.

So, right at the time I stop playing "The Rescuer", she blames me for being "The Perpetrator".

How can I stop being "The Perpetrator"?



Uptown said:


> I looked at it, JLD. As I discussed in my 7/6 post, establishing strong personal boundaries can preserve your sanity but does nothing to make a BPDer relationship "successful" as this blogger claims. Moreover, his notion that BPDers will become compliant as soon as a real man steps in and establishes firm boundaries is very mistaken.





ThreeStrikes said:


> Cluster B PD's ignore boundaries, or simply don't recognize them.


In my case, I think establishing strong personal boundaries may work only if I totally surrender to her- I show that I am totally in love with her - I start to trust her. I agree with all her crap. I agree with her fake stories to be the reason of mistreating people. I support her no matter what. 

But, I refuse to do ALL that. Faking a smile/appreciation/love is the most difficult thing to do. For me if something is wrong - I am not going to say it is right - at the best, I will keep mum (that’s still bad though - I feel). And so , when I try to put the boundaries - when I say - no what you did/say is wrong - it makes situation 10 times worse. However, talking to my real life friends -I get a message that I am doing it all wrong by not working towards trusting/respecting/loving my W. So there is a complete contradiction between my inner shelf and opinion/story which I get from my real-life friends/family.

That’s why support @ TAM has been wonderful. I like to read all your posts. Because it gives me STRENGTH to understand/tackle the current situation and HOPE- if things does not work - I can separate.



ThreeStrikes said:


> Shameless, do you see your situation improving in the future? What do you think the inevitable outcome of this relationship is?


Three strikes, without any doubt, I will say that my current situation will never improve. There will be two outcomes:
1. I continue to be like this. I will learn slowly how to cope up with my W's tantrum and my own anger. This will be an unhealthy scenario for me. But I think - it will be the best for the D at least for next 1-2 years - she will be bigger by then. Also, as W probably will get a job and become a little independent - so it would be easier to separate. (My biggest fear is > I never separate and live like this whole life - keep trying to please her. So, coming to TAM is reality check for me)
2. I wait for an epic fight sooner and then pull the plug (say within a yr). It brings a lot more unknown than the above scenario. It may get ugly and I will be the center of blame among family/friends (of leaving such a young child and a beautiful caring W - who cannot drive, has no friends and makes no money). 



john117 said:


> My wife turned into that after 25 years of a good marriage. Adult onset BPD... My approach was to treat her exactly the same way she treated me, even worse if I could. And I did.


Thanks John117, I understand what you are saying. Sometimes, I have also done the same and it does get BAD. I will counter attack - and yes that would be an epic war - will make me either leave for the night - or listen her crying whole night. If you think about an infant around watching us do that- it's sad. I never envisioned I will ever be part of such a family - but here I am.


----------



## Uptown

ShameLessLover said:


> How can I stop being "The Perpetrator"?


You don't. If your W has strong BPD traits as you suspect, you cannot stop being The Perpetrator as long as you continue to live with her. Because an untreated BPDer experiences mood flips and thought distortions, she will perceive you as The Perpetrator whenever one of her two fears is triggered by you.

As I mentioned before, it is impossible to avoid triggering one of those fears (abandonment and engulfment) because they lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means that, as you move closer to her to calm her abandonment fear, you necessarily will start triggering her engulfment fear, which occurs during intimacy and closeness. Yet, as you back away to avoid suffocating and engulfing her, you necessarily will start triggering her abandonment fear. Either way, you will be perceived as The Perpetrator.

Moreover, even if you sit still and say absolutely nothing, you STILL will be perceived as The Perpetrator. This occurs because she has so much self loathing and shame inside that she will release it -- at a subconscious level -- by projecting all hurtful thoughts and painful feelings onto you. In that way, she will use you like a wastebasket for the disposal of ugly thoughts and feelings. And, because it happens entirely at the subconscious level, she will be utterly convinced those thoughts and feeling are originating with you. 

Hence, your mere presence in the home will serve to trigger her fears, resulting in your being perceived as "The Perpetrator." Given that she considers herself always to be "The Victim," it is only logical -- by her way of thinking -- that you must be the source of all unhappiness and misfortunes.


----------



## turnera

You can't stop being the perpetrator, but you can stop caring if she makes you so. If you want to stay, that is. Accepting that she'll never change is key. I know people who stay with damaged people; they give up expecting the loving healthy marriage they thought they were getting, and accept the piecemeal one they were handed. IMO, that's what it would take for you to stay married.

I urge you, however, to stop worrying about how other people (the 'other' people in your life, not your wife) think, if they blame you. Why? Because that's their business, not yours, and you're spinning wheels if you spend your life making decisions just to keep other people liking you. And also because, if you DO leave her, you'll luckily never have to deal with those people ever again; they'll just become like those high school friends you never have to see again - at one point, you'd die to have them think highly of you; now, you couldn't give two flips about what they think, because you've moved on and created a great life without them.


----------



## jld

jld said:


> Have you looked at this?
> 
> Marriage and the Long-Term Borderline Relationship


All this blogger is saying, to me, is that you have to have strong boundaries. You decide what you will tolerate and what you will not. And the comments seem favorable. There are results.

I hear a lot of fear from the OP. Some of it is surely justified, but some is not (fear of what other people think). 

I think this woman is desperately looking for the OP to believe in himself and stand up to her. _That _is what would would reassure her. _That _is what would quell her fears of abandonment. 

OP, the blogger says that BPD is extreme emotional instability, usually brought on by severe emotional trauma at some point in life, usually childhood, if I recall correctly. You have to feel sorry for these people. But feeling sorry for them does _not_ mean giving in to them!

Be the leader, OP. Get over your fears and start doing what is in her best interest: your developing confidence in yourself and learning to say No to her, and to hold fast to that. 

You have to become a man of steel, OP. She has to be able to ram all of her fear, her insecurity, her worries, and control issues, emotions, all of it, against you, and know that you are not going to fall over. And when she throws herself with all of that at you, and falls to the ground, crying, breaking herself against you, then she will feel safe. But you have to prove yourself to be that wall first.

And if you cannot, leave her, and let another man do it.


----------



## Uptown

jld said:


> *All this blogger is saying, to me, is that you have to have strong boundaries.*


JLD, this non-professional "relationship coach" -- Rick Reynolds -- says FAR more than that in his 7-page commercial. He writes so many howlers I don't have time to list them all. I will mention only a few. 


In pushing his $99 "coaching" service and $23 book -- _The BPD Success Program_ -- Rick promises that you can *"Learn Exactly How to Succeed in BPD Relationships." * This absurd claim is harmful because it is the _exact opposite _of what abused partners need to hear. What keeps these partners stuck in toxic marriages for years is their mistaken belief that, if only they can figure out what THEY ARE DOING WRONG, they can restore the BPDer spouse to that wonderful person they saw during the honeymoon.
.
His "BPD Success Program" has repeatedly failed to work for HIM. Granted, he claims throughout his 7-page commercial that *"my girl doesn’t do those things [BPD behaviors] around me anymore.... I have been dating the same BPD girl for almost a year now."* He claims *"Let my current lifestyle be an inspiration for you and your future relationships."* On one page, however, he concedes *"my last girlfriend is a Borderline....We’ve recently broken up after 13 months."

*
Indeed, Rick concedes his "success program" never worked earlier when, as he says, *"I spent years dating various BPD women."* All those failures occurred despite his claim that his success system was formulated during his very first BPDer relationship. He states, *"It was my first girlfriend with BPD that brought me up to an entirely new level of realization, socialization, mindsets and more."* Following his breakup with his last BPDer woman, Rick changed his goal and decided to write another book. That new goal (starting 3/13/13) is *"to help people become the best they can be which will weed out the emotionally weak partners [the BPDers]. And that’s the direction I am now going and what my new book is all about."

*
Rick falsely claims that "psychologists and professionals" give useless advice because *"the mainstream BPD advice is crap.*" He proudly states, *"I am not a psychologist nor do I want to be."* Rick claims he has *"vast knowledge"* and is an *"expert on relationships"* even though still in his 20′s. He asserts, *"Put me up against any psychologist, author, whatever and I guarantee I know more about BPD than any of them."

*
Rick states, *"When I look at successful relationships with borderlines, the men wear the pants...They’ve got their **** together and you naturally respect them – hence why a borderline is perfectly happy with him."* Amazingly, he asserts that all you have to do to make a BPDer happy is to "be a man," "wear the pants," and -- I kid you not -- behave like Rhett Buttler did in _Gone with the Wind_.
.
He claims his success system is so valuable that *"If everybody actually knew this concept, divorce would drop to below 10% and everybody would be happy."* His success system is so simple that *"How you respond to it the very first time will determine whether that poor behavior continues or not." * Incredibly, Rick claims, *"Be genuinely confident and a solid human being and you won’t even know if you’re dating a BPD." *LOL.



jld said:


> And the comments seem favorable.


Many don't. *Anna, for example, writes* (8/19/13) _"Your arrogant, know it all, I’m so freaking cool attitude helps nobody.... If you are so brilliant at handling BPD relationships, why have you had so many? Why couldn’t you make just one of them work?"_ *Ashely writes* (6/19/13) "Rick, you sound exactly like someone I know with NPD (narcissistic personality disorder)." And *Codependent writes *(8/9/12) _"You suffer with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). Get over yourself."_


----------



## jld

You seem angry, Uptown.

As I understood it, he learned how to deal with BOD women the hard way--by going through several relationships with them.

The one that he broke up with after 13 months was because of his own wishes--he wanted to move abroad and did not want to take her with him.

Not all the comments are positive, but many are. 

What I read there is that when you have strong boundaries, the BPD will either leave you or fall in line. Either way is a win.


----------



## jld

Here is an excerpt:

_My last girlfriend is a Borderline, but it was never an issue for us.

The reason it never became an issue is because I never made it an issue.

*By sticking to my guns and knowing exactly what I want, what I will and will not tolerate, any form of BPD that might have surfaced never grew into something more.

And she loved me for this.*

We’ve recently broken up after 13 months, and this was entirely my decision as I want to live abroad for some time and enjoy my later 20′s.

The earlier you set the tone of the relationship, the better off you’re going to be.

Because I’ve dated multiple BPD’s and knew exactly what to look for, I never once became reactive to any of her BPD behavior.

Throughout the entire relationship, she was the one chasing me and investing more into us.

Of course I returned the favor and did my part, but I made absolutely sure that I did not fall into chasing-mode like everybody else does.

And that’s why the relationship worked._


----------



## jld

Uptown said:


> *This absurd claim is harmful *because it is the _exact opposite _of what abused partners need to hear. What keeps these partners stuck in toxic marriages for years is their mistaken belief that, if only they can figure out what THEY ARE DOING WRONG, they can restore the BPDer spouse to that wonderful person they saw during the honeymoon.


What is the "absurd claim"? 

That these men do not have to be "victims"? 

That they do not have to pay for therapy unless the BPD is going to work hard at it? 

That they can leave if they want? 

That the only way to be successful with BPD women is to have strong boundaries, and be willing to walk if they do not comply?

That getting stronger in yourself and having strong boundaries will help you in every area of your life, not just in intimate relationships?

You do not have to buy his book or sign up for his coaching to learn from his website. I actually think you learn plenty from what is written there.

* But to learn from it, you have to get rid of the idea that you are a victim. You have to accept the idea that you are where you are because of choices you have made. And if you own that, you can make different choices, and get a different result. She complies, or one of you ends the relationship. Win/Win, or No Deal.*


----------



## jld

I'm going to be out this afternoon, Uptown, but I would like to bring up one final thought. Didn't you say that eventually you did the same thing with your wife that Rick is recommending? That you set strong boundaries, and let her choose her response? And she left? 

Is that not a positive outcome, a win-win, for both of you?


----------



## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> SLL, here is what's going on. Have you ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome?


Turnera, I have heard of Stockholm Syndrome. I agree with your explanation - I do feel like loosing it. Going to psychologist is in my things-to-do list. 

I am not kinda guy who would have followed if his gf orders around. My wife is everything - I dislike in a woman. In our getting-to-know period , she was everything I ever wanted - confident, kind, beautiful, respectful, down-to-earth and a career oriented woman. See, how confusing my statements are - LOL. If someone does not know about BPD - I will be the crazy one. 



turnera said:


> SO many things here. First, the part in bold. You have been TRAINED to be 'as nice as possible' to her to avoid her outbursts. STOP DOING THAT. Say what you want and let HER live her tantrums. Take the baby and go for a walk.


I am being trained - how not to upset her. I am not @ peace because I act/do in a certain way which my inner -shelf does not like. I listen the crap and say nothing because that will bring more crap. And when I do -when I stand up for myself - when I get as angry as she gets - you know what happens - a war. In everything, my latent anger definitely makes situation worse.

I am ON this though - if she talks $hit again - I will be go to the other room. If continues, I will be out of the door. I do not think I can take the baby and leave - that will make her 100 times more angry.



turnera said:


> Second, do you see how many times here you ASKED her for permission? What man does that? One who's been abused, that's who. Now, the second part, in red, is you GIVING UP your own rights. You don't HAVE to ask her permission for YOU to leave. If you need a break - TAKE ONE. Ok? You've lost the ability to see that you have the RIGHT to do just about anything in life you want (outside physically hurting someone else). Stop begging her. And why do you have to drive her to work? You're not her servant, as you tried to tell her. If she wants to get a job, great - let her. On HER dime, with HER plans, that don't involve you.


Thanks. I lack courage. May be, counselling will help.
I plan to bring the "taking the break thing" again by end of this month.



turnera said:


> I urge you, however, to stop worrying about how other people (the 'other' people in your life, not your wife) think, if they blame you. Why? Because that's their business, not yours, and you're spinning wheels if you spend your life making decisions just to keep other people liking you.


Turnera/Jld - thanks for the kind words. Although I mentioned my fear in my last post - what others think - is my last worry. Baby comes to the top - followed by my emotional/physical health.


----------



## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> I knew that woman's husband...fwiw, HE was the problem. She never would have done that if not for him.





jld said:


> And there he goes, scot-free . . .


I have no idea- whom you guys are talking about.


----------



## ShameLessLover

jld said:


> All this blogger is saying, to me, is that you have to have strong boundaries.


In my case, I have somewhat started doing that - that’s why we have so much friction. If I stop putting boundaries and do what she says/asks me to do - there will be no drama. My putting up the boundaries creates the drama. 

I have yet to read the blog though. I am going to do this sometime soon. 



jld said:


> I think this woman is desperately looking for the OP to believe in himself and stand up to her. _That _is what would would reassure her. _That _is what would quell her fears of abandonment.


What does OP stand for?



jld said:


> Be the leader, OP. Get over your fears and start doing what is in her best interest: your developing confidence in yourself and learning to say No to her, and to hold fast to that.


Thanks for the support. Although slow, I think I have been working on this. I am learning to say a FIRM NO.



jld said:


> You have to become a man of steel, OP. She has to be able to ram all of her fear, her insecurity, her worries, and control issues, emotions, all of it, against you, and know that you are not going to fall over. And when she throws herself with all of that at you, and falls to the ground, crying, breaking herself against you, then she will feel safe. But you have to prove yourself to be that wall first.
> 
> And if you cannot, leave her, and let another man do it.


Most of the time, when she throws a tantrum, I become emotionless - the only things I have for her in that moment is SYMPATHY. I do not show LOVE - because I do not feel it. LOVE is what she needs in that moment. I used to go hug her after her tantrums and would say - everything will be okay. But I do not do that now. She craves for hug, love and feeling secure when she is angry. The only emotion now I get is - sympathy-though. Because I feel so beaten up.

However, I am constantly termed as a COLD stone-hearted man for this behavior. If she is more angry - I would be told that I am silently abusing here. And, I will say nothing. 

So I do not agree that She likes me to be "like a wall". Or, I got it all wrong.



jld said:


> What I read there is that when you have strong boundaries, the BPD will either leave you or fall in line. Either way is a win.


Yes, I agree. I feel that strong boundaries may only help suppress the tantrums and give us room to breathe. I doubt that putting strong boundaries will ever make us feel to be in a normal relationship. Our definition of normal relationship would certainly change with time.


----------



## turnera

ShameLessLover said:


> I am ON this though - if she talks $hit again - I will be go to the other room. If continues, I will be out of the door. I do not think I can take the baby and leave - that will make her 100 times more angry.


Are you kidding me? You're not allowed to take the baby for a walk? Come on!

You are most definitely NOT on this. Be the man you say you are.


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## turnera

ShameLessLover said:


> I have no idea- whom you guys are talking about.


Look up woman drowns kids in bathtub.


----------



## turnera

ShameLessLover said:


> My putting up the boundaries creates the drama.


Bullshyte. SHE creates drama, she CHOOSES to create drama. By having a boundary (and what happened to the consequence to her overstepping it?), you are simply being a HUMAN. 



ShameLessLover said:


> Yes, I agree. I feel that strong boundaries may only help suppress the tantrums and give us room to breathe. I doubt that putting strong boundaries will ever make us feel to be in a normal relationship. Our definition of normal relationship would certainly change with time.


If you become consistent in having boundaries - and enacting the consequences when she oversteps them - she will LEARN who you really are. She will LEARN that her tantrums do no good because when she pulls one, you simply disengage and go do whatever YOU want.

This is your wife:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk-OfmmRaqs

She throws tantrums because they work and because you just stand there and endure them.

btw, if she truly is BPD, you MUST go to an IC by yourself and start learning how to deal with her on the advice of a professional. In a perfect world, SHE would go, but you need to be educated on how to deal with her.


----------



## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> Are you kidding me? You're not allowed to take the baby for a walk? Come on!


I do take out the baby for walk.

What I meant is - duirng one of the episodes- if we are arguing, and If I say if you would not shut up i will take the baby and leave - that will make her more angry.

She gets threatened that I am going to keep her away from the baby.


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## ShameLessLover

Hello Guys, I thought to give an update. So finally I got to get my vacation. I went for about a month to see my folks - had a great time, except I missed my DD. To my surprise, it was better than I imagined. She was okay for the most part except a few mood swings where we fought over the phone. Mostly because, I would not give her all the updates of every little thing I was doing. She would say something like : _Who (referring to my mom/dad) is instigating you against me? Are you not taking my phone because they tell you not to? _

That would make me mad, and we will end up yelling at each other. Talking about my W and my problems on the vacation- was the LAST on my list. So besides for a few days, mostly it was okay.

Since I came back, she seems to be changed. She has been perfect. She would not let me do anything for first few days- such as no diaper change, or the dishes, or little things like that. Anyway, I know how it goes -so I am trying to do my part. She can be a volcano in a second. First, she would pamper me and then she would make me the the sole reason of her misery; I would be the one who has ruined her life. Anyway, I will see how it goes. I think- the kinds of days which I am having now, is the reason, people live in this kind of relationship for years. 

Oh yes, she would often question. Still. _Why do not you buy the house? All your friends did._ I maintain :"I do not want to buy a house". Then comes, _Where does all your money go? Why do not you share that with me?_ I keep mum. Another one: _You do not buy me any jewelry. Mrs X got a gift from her husband - it was like x thousand dollars._ I ignore. I just do not feel like buying anything expensive - I just do not feel it. Well, it does not count her costly dresses - which she often buys - I do not mind (well considering i ignore her other demands). She spent $400 on her dresses while I was away - only on her clothes. Just saying.

You guys have a great ThanksGiving!
Thanks for listening.


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## Uptown

ShameLessLover said:


> Since I came back, she seems to be changed.


Shame, as you know all too well, "change" is the only constant for an emotionally unstable woman. Indeed, it would be surprising for you to ever find that she hasn't changed. Thanks for returning to give us an update. I'm glad to hear you had such a good visit with your parents. I hope you and your family have a great Thanksgiving tomorrow!


----------



## EleGirl

Have you gotten into individual counseling for yourself?


----------



## ShameLessLover

Thanks Uptown - that makes sense.



EleGirl said:


> Have you gotten into individual counseling for yourself?


Elegirl, I was in counselling before - went for 5 sessions. I have not gone for last few months. I plan to go again - just to feel more normal. And to get more clarity with my emotion and future. sometimes, I do feel overwhelmed with everything. Slowly - being turning into a crazy old man - with very little patience - and who gets irritated with little things. I need to address this. Once I used to be cool who enjoyed life and had everything planned. I need ME back - with whatever scenario i am in.


----------



## EleGirl

I can only image how hard all this has been on you. Going back to counseling should help, at least I hope it will.

Have you ever talked to your wife about her getting help?


----------



## turnera

ShameLessLover said:


> Elegirl, I was in counselling before - went for 5 sessions. I have not gone for last few months. I plan to go again - just to feel more normal.


SLL, in a normal situation, going to counseling 5 times is not nearly enough to find issues and work on them and overcome them. The mind is THE slowest thing to change, compared to problems with other parts of the body. It's VERY complicated.

And given your situation, the stress you're under, the instability your wife brings, you need a LOT of help. Not that there's something wrong with YOU, but that you need real help from a professional in how to navigate your wife's crazy - how to react to her so that she stops triggering and manipulating. You need to become an expert on her disease so you can manage it from your side. And hopefully, once you create the stability, she'll feel safer to move toward the middle and maybe even get help.


----------



## ShameLessLover

EleGirl said:


> Have you ever talked to your wife about her getting help?


Thanks Elegirl. Not recently, but I have asked her before. First she said "NO" - because I am the one who needs counselling. Couple of times, she agreed to go when we had arguments. Later she refused when things clam down - _"why do you want to go for counselling", "I so much love you and you love me (implying don't you?) then why do you want to go for counselling?", "Do you want me to leave - that’s why you want to go (implying that the counsellors make a record of everything and I am making a plot to divorce her)?_ it can go forever. Reasons, Excuses And Arguments. So, I do not ask her for counselling now. Because, I know PRECISELY what/how she would respond. I do not think I have energy left to go for hours of arguments and of blame followed by hours of crying.



turnera said:


> SLL, in a normal situation, going to counseling 5 times is not nearly enough to find issues and work on them and overcome them. The mind is THE slowest thing to change, compared to problems with other parts of the body. It's VERY complicated.
> 
> And given your situation, the stress you're under, the instability your wife brings, you need a LOT of help. Not that there's something wrong with YOU, but that you need real help from a professional in how to navigate your wife's crazy - how to react to her so that she stops triggering and manipulating. You need to become an expert on her disease so you can manage it from your side. And hopefully, once you create the stability, she'll feel safer to move toward the middle and maybe even get help.



Thanks Turnera, This time I plan to go to counselling just for myself. Soon.


----------



## ShameLessLover

Just thought to share: I was watching a movie a few days back with my wife - "The Last Station". It is the story of last days of Leo Tolstoy. The film is about the battle between Sofya (his wife) and his disciple Vladimir Chertkov for his legacy and the copyright of his works.

Sofya so reminds me of my wife. Same kind of tantrum - same unpredictability - asking him to do anything she liked. The only excuse - because _"I love you and you love me (Don't you?)"_. Tolstoy became so good at predicting the unpredictability of his wife that he had to leave home. He knew he would not find peace with her - he left everything - in his 80s - few days before his death. 

Now I understand where does his quote in War and Peace come from: _“The strongest of all warriors are these two — Time and Patience.” _ LOL- I do not have any of these warriors. I want to be happy soon and I am impatient.

Funny, my wife supported Sofya -_ why do not he just give the copyright to his wife? He is making her miserable._ 

PS: i will make more sense if you watch the movie.


----------



## ShameLessLover

So, I have been going to a counsellor for myself. I am not sure if it brings any change in my situation. The counsellor seems as confused as I am. She suggested couple counselling to fix the issues, which I do not have a control on. The conclusion is either to _sulk it_ as I have no choice. Or, _leave_. I was looking for a temporary middle ground - where I have to sulk less. But no hope. I am thinking of stopping the counselling. Or, I will look for another counsellor. 

I need some advice on - in case - If I do take that ultimate step of leaving (hypothetical situation for now but it may be a reality in future): Say, If I go to attorney tomorrow and get the process started. Most probably, I will not return home afterwards and will stay somewhere else. Say it's about a month before I can get some temporary judgment about how often I would see my DD. My biggest problem is - _how I am going to take not seeing my DD for at least like a month? What's the best I can do - in the time frame - to protect her - Knowing that my Wife can be an emotional wreck? _ The situation will be bad especially as she does not has any of her family members (or a real/authentic friend) in this country. Her getting emotionally vulnerable would directly affect our DD's well being. 

I do know, on a long term - I will be better. I will slowly learn how to be okay/happy about it. I will learn how to be a great dad and how to provide her strength to deal with the craziness my W's emotional immaturity will bring.

You may ask why cannot I come to check on my daughter's well being during that initial time?
>>I have left many times and came back. My return puts me in a very bad situation - it involves a lot of crying on her part and blaming me for everything and suddenly making me feel that She has only got me. My return put in a situation - it is difficult to come out from. Somehow, I start to feel like it's all my fault. I should have not said this or that - and she would not have got angry. And Everything would have been okay. Or, I will look at my daughter's face and ignore my W's tantrum.


----------



## turnera

What's your IC doing to help you learn self love and self respect? If you had those, your wife's tears wouldn't affect you and you wouldn't have to leave. And why do you have to tell your wife you filed? Just file and on the final day before she's served, THEN move out.


----------



## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> What's your IC doing to help you learn self love and self respect? If you had those, your wife's tears wouldn't affect you and you wouldn't have to leave.


I really do not get much about how to learn self love/respect. Here is the summary of our sessions: _You have couple of paths - i) one, you let it as it is - deal like you are dealing now and it would bring occasional friction. ii) Do what you like and be ready to face more anger/craziness. You would need to learn how to ignore, and how to not let her anger affect you (But how? She suggested that - try to think that you are doing this for your daughter). iii) Look for couple counselling/mediation. You need to find a way to convince her to do this. She needs to participate for you to get what you want to get. _

_If you leave_ (after hearing that I have been thinking about this -and my DD is sole reason for me to stay)_ you will show your daughter how to stick with what you believe in_. She also added, _if you continue to live in this relationship, its important to show occasional love to your wife and make her feel secure _(after I said that there is no connection and I do not say I love you - and trust me this is the hardest thing for me to do after all those emotional swings. I do not like saying "I love you" if I do not mean it) _because you both are role models for your daughter._ Bottom line- if I want to stay - I should try to fall in love - start with little things - like touch/appreciate.




turnera said:


> why do you have to tell your wife you filed? Just file and on the final day before she's served, THEN move out.


I do not have to tell my W when I filed. I can move out on the final day. But what, afterwards? It would take at least a month (or, many months) for any temporary judgment/settlement. How am I going to see my DD during that time? How am i going to make sure that she is okay? it will be a total wreckage once she gets served.


----------



## turnera

Ok so your IC is focusing on actions first. Just make sure you tell her you want her to help you build up your backbone.

And you have every bit as much right to your daughter as your wife; just have your lawyer write up the papers so you have joint access, and if she tries to deny you, you can call the cops.


----------



## Uptown

ShameLessLover said:


> _iii) Look for couple counselling/mediation. You need to find a way to convince her to do this. She needs to participate for you to get what you want to get. _


Shame, my experience is that -- if your W has strong BPD traits as you suspect -- MC would be worse than useless. Because a BPDer's issues go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills, going to MC would simply give her numerous opportunities to beat up on you with a therapist present. It is extremely unlikely that a BPDer will be candid with the therapist and reveal her dark side or own up to mistakes she's made.


----------



## ShameLessLover

So I went to the Counsellor for like 5 times. It was okay. Not much I gained. I could continue but I do not feel like it. The best counselling I get is from the members of TAM. Thank you all very much.

So, the bottom line of the counselling was - if I want to get what I want out of this relationship - W has to be ready to go for counselling. The counselor added: so, there are tough choices ahead ( like I did not know grrr). Do what you want to do and do not think/act on her reaction (read: anger). Or, do what you are doing now . Or, leave. Well, so in short, I am where I were.




turnera said:


> What's your IC doing to help you learn self love and self respect? If you had those, your wife's tears wouldn't affect you and you wouldn't have to leave.


Thanks Turnera! I could not find a way to not to be affected by my wife's tears. I definitely has gotten better but it still affects me. 

Do you really think that if had stronger self love and self respect, that would help me stay in this marriage happily? And I wouldn't have to leave (I am a little confused by this part)? 



Uptown said:


> Shame, my experience is that -- if your W has strong BPD traits as you suspect -- MC would be worse than useless. Because a BPDer's issues go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills, going to MC would simply give her numerous opportunities to beat up on you with a therapist present. It is extremely unlikely that a BPDer will be candid with the therapist and reveal her dark side or own up to mistakes she's made.


Uptwon, I hear you. MY experience makes me agree with you too. However, I feel that we should go for couple counselling at least once. I want to convince myself that I did everything in my reach to fix this relationship.

My counsellor persuaded me to find a way to get my W ready for couple counselling. Two weeks back, some incidents happened at home, I asked my W as calmly as possible: "_We know that there is a friction between us - we are not good at communication. It has happened many times that we end up arguing in front of DD. I think we should go for marriage counselling to address this"_. After much sincere request, she agreed. I was elated. In next two days, I talked to another counsellor and sent an email to my W so that I can set the time/date of the appointment. She called me back - another cycle of arguing happened - went for like an hour. I was mostly listening to her. _She said that I got the problem so that I should go and fix it. She did say that if you have a problem with me, you can tell me. Why do you need to go to counselor? If you have money to spend on counselling, you should thinking of buying a house (I know, it does not make sense)._ Well, in conclusion - I had to drop the idea of couple counselling.

My biggest fear in life is - getting used to this life. Days go fine. I spent every day/ every weekend with total focus on home. The hurtful moments come only if I really want something for my own happiness. For example, I called my only sibling about a month back. We were video chatting . He wanted to see my DD. So, I got DD to show her uncle. We chatted for like alittle over 5 minutes. I was in my bedoom and wife was in kitchen. As soon as I hung up, W came to the bed room and said - _Please keep me and my daughter separate from your family._ I was pissed and we had arguments - for like an hour. Then she had fit of talking $hit about everyone in the family, and episode of crying. I remained calm. Kept thinking- seriously, that’s how my life is going to be? Note that I never say anything when her family video chat with our DD, which happens almost 3-4 times a week.


----------



## turnera

My DD24 has always had a good opinion of herself. Only child, completely devoted upon, model-quality beauty. She has always known she was important, didn't have to accept less than what she deserved. Thank God she's not a diva, because she could have, that's how much she likes herself.

She has only seriously dated about 5 guys in the last 8 years, because no one met her high standards. For instance, if a guy was late for a date, she gave him one more chance to NOT be late the next time. In her mind, if a person asks you out, and then shows up 30 minutes late, well, they must not be putting much of an effort into winning you over, right? So she gives him a second chance. If he is again late, no more chances. He has proven that he will not be good dating material, that she will always come second to him, and she believes she's a great package (she really does put 150% into her boyfriend) and shouldn't have to settle.

Do you see where the self-love and self-respect enter into that? When I was dating, and a guy said put out or I'll dump you, guess what I did? Yep, I gave him what he wanted, just so he wouldn't leave me. Me, who has NO self-love. I saw SO little worth in myself that I figured I had to do anything just to keep a guy - ANY guy - interested in me.

Today, she has finally met an amazing man, everything she's been waiting for. It was worth it for her to believe in herself, have high standards, and - here's where it translates to your story - be unwilling to put up with shyte.

What would happen if you loved yourself, when your wife pulled one of her tricks, you would calmly, confidently, virtually pat her on the head and say 'that's ok, I know you're just acting out, I know it has nothing to do with me, it's YOUR problems, YOUR issues, and they don't mean there's something wrong with ME. I'm gonna go do something else while you're throwing your fit, because I don't deserve to be treated like that. I'm not leaving you, but I'm not putting up with crap, either. Let me know when you're done, and I'll be back.'

Do you see the difference between that and what you do?


----------



## Uptown

Shame, I agree with Turnera that you should not be tolerating such treatment by your W. As you said back in Sept. 2013 (post #7 above), you are married to a woman who behaves like a 5-year-old child. You therefore are not describing a husband/wife marriage but, rather, a parent/child relationship.


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## ShameLessLover

FlowerChild said:


> File for divorce immediately. File for FULL, sole custody. If a judge hears about your wife's behavior, guaranteed they will not grant her custody because she is a danger to the child. You say that she loves her daughter and would never hurt her, but you don't REALLY know that. Regardless of whether or not she would hurt the baby, she is still a danger to the child.


I do not think I will ever get full custody. The best deal I would have is 50/50. I do not think I can prove anything. Extreme craziness happens _only if her territory of love is attacked by someone_ (for Ex: when mom stayed with me for like a week or two 1.5 yrs back). Otherwise, her behavior does not get to that extreme. I can not prove anything. It has not gotten to the extreme in last 6 months. Primarily, because I have gotten better at walking on egg-cells. Though, its not fun to keep up with her swings. Say, even if I get a divorce, I can guarantee that baby will be in worse situation in that 50 % of the time. Worse than now. Scary!




FlowerChild said:


> Please leave. For the sake of your daughter and for yourself. I know your wife has lost a lot. But I am finding it difficult to feel compassion for her because she isn't getting help. She is endangering your daughter. She is endangering you, and your mother.


Another complicacy in my situation: She is like an angel if you ever see her (as an acquaintance). She is a great host. She will have so much love and compassion for others (It lacks authenticity - trust me). She would pamper me like I am her only son (which I dislike but she keeps showing how much she loves me with evey little things).So, when tears drop down from her innocent eyes when she tells her story- everyone feels compassion for her. But, just wait till she is angry and I will guarantee a volcano!


----------



## Uptown

ShameLessLover said:


> I do not think I will ever get full custody. The best deal I would have is 50/50. I do not think I can prove anything. Extreme craziness happens _only if her territory of love is attacked by someone_.


Shame, I agree it would be difficult to prove she has strong BPD traits, even if her BPD is full-blown. As I noted earlier, therapists generally are LOATH to tell a BPDer -- much less tell her H or her insurance company -- the name of her diagnosed disorder. This withholding of a diagnosis is no secret to the family-law attorneys who specialize in divorces and spousal abuse. 

One such firm -- located in Calif and NV -- explains on its website why there is little chance of being able to use a BPD diagnosis in the divorce proceedings against a very abusive spouse. This article, by trial lawyer Joel Douglas, states:_"Often mental health care clinicians in completing their DSM list of differential diagnoses will “defer” or simply leave an Axis II diagnostic impression blank, irrespective of whether a personality disorder exists." 
_​Douglas gives four reasons as to why _"many psychotherapists are loathe to list Axis II personality disorders."_ See full article at Bonne Bridges, Mueller, O'Keefe & Nichols - Borderline Personality Disorder.


----------



## john117

That, and the uncanny ability of high functioning BPD's to "blend in".... Unless you're the target.


----------



## ShameLessLover

sometimes, *I wish she were just mean to me - all the way *. Making a decision would have been easier.


----------



## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> And you have every bit as much right to your daughter as your wife; just have your lawyer write up the papers so you have joint access, and if she tries to deny you, you can call the cops.


Say, the day she gets the paper, I do not come back home. I plan not to come back home after that day. The reason -I know how bad it would get - the arguments/shouting/yelling/crying/emotional-vulnerability - I do not think I would be able to take it. Now, as I do not come back, it would be seen as _abandonment_.

Based on my last visit to a lawyer, I do not think a lawyer can write such letter - only a judge can grant that, which may take about a month. So meanwhile, it would depend on my W if she lets me see our DD. Or, I can come back and beg. Or, I can come back and create a scene. But, after she being served the paper - I want to be at peace - I would not want to be part of any drama.


----------



## aine

ShameLessLover said:


> Say, the day she gets the paper, I do not come back home. I plan not to come back home after that day. The reason -I know how bad it would get - the arguments/shouting/yelling/crying/emotional-vulnerability - I do not think I would be able to take it. Now, as I do not come back, it would be seen as _abandonment_.
> 
> Based on my last visit to a lawyer, I do not think a lawyer can write such letter - only a judge can grant that, which may take about a month. So meanwhile, it would depend on my W if she lets me see our DD. Or, I can come back and beg. Or, I can come back and create a scene. But, after she being served the paper - I want to be at peace - I would not want to be part of any drama.



ShameLL, sad to hear of the turmoil you and your family are going through now. I have a few questions to clarify better what is happening. I think Westerners need to be a bit careful about answering you because of cultural differences, I am caucasian married to an Asian, hence the questions:

1. did you have an arranged marriage or love marriage?
2. before your wife gave birth did you have these problems?
3. Was your wife involved in the decision to bring your mother down from India to stay with you, or was that a unilateral decision?
4. when you make financial decisions, especially those helping other members of the family, do you discuss them with your wife or are they unilateral decisions?
5. To what extent do you call the shots in your immediate family especially since your wife cannot drive etc, what say if any, does your wife have in the marriage, running of the home, finances, etc.
6. Is your wife educated, and to what level?
7. is it possible your wife has post natal depression?
8. has there been any incidents or interference in the past that would cause your wife to dislike your mother or family so much?
9. have you always supported your wife when there have been differences between her and your family members? 

I ask these questions because unless your wife has PND or a BPD her actions are not normal. If these are not the case there is something more deep rooted, often in Indian marriages, the husband does put the wife last and takes care of everyone else. Blood family usually comes first and it leaves a wife feeling very unloved and abandoned. Have your considered your role in this? A man when he marries should put his wife first, not his mother, brother, sister, etc. I think there are serious matters surrounding this aspect which you have not explored. Your wife is not a good communicator and uses anger and infantilism to deal with it.


----------



## aine

ShameLessLover said:


> sometimes, *I wish she were just mean to me - all the way *. Making a decision would have been easier.


She is not mean to you all the time because she loves you but does not know how to communicate the hurt you have caused her by putting everyone else (your blood relatives) first before her. Now any contact with them sets her off. Indian woman want their own mothers to be there during confinement, not a mother in law, did you discuss this with her? Probably not. Have you looked at any of this from your wife's perspective or is she expected to play the good submissive daughter in law?


----------



## aine

FlowerChild said:


> So far, I have only read the first page of this thread and I'm honestly too horrified to continue reading.
> 
> Your wife is seriously mentally unstable. She's sick. The way she yelled at your mom, making your mom cry made me want to tear up because the thought of that makes me so sad.
> 
> Your daughter is in danger. Your daughter is seeing and hearing her mother scream, yell, swear and throwing things around. Not a healthy environment for her at all. If you stay, your daughter will grow up thinking that is a normal way to act.
> Do you want your daughter to be with a man who acts the way your wife does? No? So get out as soon as possible.
> File for divorce immediately. File for FULL, sole custody. If a judge hears about your wife's behavior, guaranteed they will not grant her custody because she is a danger to the child. You say that she loves her daughter and would never hurt her, but you don't REALLY know that. Regardless of whether or not she would hurt the baby, she is still a danger to the child.
> Your baby senses and feels stress. Your wife had to call a nurse because SHE, herself was scaring and stressing the baby out.
> Can you record your wife's actions and behaviors? Do that. Show that to a lawyer. Gather proof that your wife is crazy, because she is.
> 
> Who the hell is your wife to insult your mother? She has absolutely no right insulting your mother and calling her those horrible names, kicking her out and yelling at her. That is wrong and it's scary.
> 
> Please leave. For the sake of your daughter and for yourself. I know your wife has lost a lot. But I am finding it difficult to feel compassion for her because she isn't getting help. She is endangering your daughter. She is endangering you, and your mother.
> 
> Please don't make excuses not to leave. Your daughter is too young, better now than later.
> Your wife will be devastated? She is devastating your mother and your daughter and you. She isn't getting help. If she's devastated, she should have thought of that before.
> 
> Imagine your daughter with a man who is like your wife. You would want her to leave. So set a good example. Your wife doesn't have to be gone forever, but you should have sole custody while she gets help for her serious issues. Whether she does or doesn't is all up to her.
> Your daughter will grow up thinking that this is normal, and either she will turn out like your wife, or end up with someone like your wife. Either way is not good, so please leave her. Do what's right for you and your daughter.
> 
> My husband would not stand for this behaviour. If I acted the way your wife does, he would try to get me help until eventually the safety of our son is compromised and he would OUT the door filing for divorce and sole custody.
> 
> Nothing is worth risking your daughters well being or her future. By staying with this woman, you are not doing what's best for her.
> I will say try to find out if she has post partum depression. But please take care of your daughter and do whatever you need to do to ensure your daughter's safety, and a good future.


I get the feeling that many on this thread are looking at this from a Caucasian view point. Do any of us know whether the wife was even asked whether the mother could come when she is trying to cope with a new baby and post baby blues. 

She was probably cooking and cleaning for the mil (this is expected in Indian culture). i just don't buy all of ShameLL's take on things. It sounds all very dramatic and from his own words he tends to put his blood family first. Not an ideal situation for any new mother.


----------



## ShameLessLover

Thanks Aine for bringing up a new perspective to the situation. Here you go.

1. did you have an arranged marriage or love marriage?
We met online, I was in US and she was in India. We talked close to an year before meeting. My M, uncle and a cousin went to her house to meet her. They were ecstatic to meet her. She was pretty, came from a nice family, very educated and she seemed very innocent, very giving. Her innocence kind of gave the impression - she is waiting for her prince charming to rescue her. Note that both of her parents were dead. The closest family she got is her uncle's family. My family thought that they found a daughter they never had. 

I kind of felt the pressure of everything. I saw some red flags and I was hesitant - everything was going so fast. But I could not find any reason to say no. She would talk to me like she knew about me more than I ever known about mself. 

2. before your wife gave birth did you have these problems?
Yes. Since day 1 of us living together i knew something was off. I always thought - may be - I am just not husband kind of material - I still think. I found her very much into me (so much that I will be short of breathing, I always am). There has been no space for me. Some examples from very early into living together. These are small stuff, but I thought , I would share.

a. She will keep our clothes together and they will all get mixed up. So, I asked her - can I keep my shirts and jeans in a separate closet? As I have to search for my stuff in the morning when I go to office. That ended up in arguments. She felt unloved that I am trying to keep myself separate from her. Arguments/ crying followed. Things always start with very small stuff.

b. I have always been into Latin dancing. She was so impressed about it. I was glad that she loved dancing. It was our fist outing together to this dance club. If you go to these places, the instructor will first teach simple steps for like 15-30 mins before the actual dancing begins. During this time, they rotate the partners. My wife was okay for first few minutes and then I saw her sitting in the corner. I asked - what happened? She said that she wants to go home. I was like we just came. She: "no I want to go home". So, we drove back. She was all the way very angry. She could not bear me holding another woman. We had arguments. If I only knew - I would not have gone to the club. 

c. Very often, after an argument, she would drink 4-5 bottle of beer and become unresponsive. Note she never touches the alcohol. She would be angry and she will do this just to show me that- look, what I can do? She would say: I love you so much, I cannot live with out you and she will start crying.

d. Couple of times, she will just come out of the apartment in the late night after one of the arguments and start walking, And I will follow her and beg her to come back. 

3. Was your wife involved in the decision to bring your mother down from India to stay with you, or was that a unilateral decision?
Yes, we will talk about that we really need some one from back home. I can promise that if my M would not have arrived here. _We would have been talking about how heartless my family have been that no one came when we needed them the most._

4. when you make financial decisions, especially those helping other members of the family, do you discuss them with your wife or are they unilateral decisions?
No, I do not. You may say I am a control freak. But If I start doing that - I will be screwed. The reason is that we could never built up the level of trust for each other that we start sharing all my finances with her. This is also one of the reason we have arguments.

My past experiences are bitter and which make me want not to share finances with her. A very trivial example: while my M was leaving for the airport, I gave her an IPOD for her trip back. This IPOD was about 4 years old and I bought that way before I knew my W. After W came to know about this. She was like :"How could you give my IPOD to your mother?". I said "Dude, you got an IPHONE, and that IPOD was never yours. That’s an old iPod which I bought long before". We had another round of arguments.

I agree though if I start to give her all my pay checks she will feel all so loved. But if love requires money - I am not into it.

5. To what extent do you call the shots in your immediate family especially since your wife cannot drive etc, what say if any, does your wife have in the marriage, running of the home, finances, etc.

She takes all the shots except me not sharing all the finances. We do have a joint account which always have a few hundred dollars. When we go out together, I always use my card so joint account is only for her pocket money . On a weakened, I am my wife's driver. She tell me where to go and I go. I have learnt not to say NO. I say yes all the time except when she asks me to buy a house. LOL

6. Is your wife educated, and to what level?
She is a doctor by training and she has a masters degree. On paper, she is a highly educated person. My relationship experience has taught me: being highly educated and emotionally healthy are two entirely different things.

7. is it possible your wife has post natal depression?
She had some health issues after pregnancy. We went for physical therapy and now she takes some medics. I do not think the emotional/mental issue, which she has is due to her pregnancy. Any way, our DD is now 21 months old.

8. has there been any incidents or interference in the past that would cause your wife to dislike your mother or family so much?
I remember only one incident. That happened to our only trip together to my family. Now, since you brought this up. I come from a one of the remotest region of India. So society is conservative. She was wearing a dark goggles, which was drawing attractions from the onlookers. I did not notice. My brother did and he hinted this to me. I asked my W: "Can you please take out the goggles?" She: _Why?_ Me: Please just take it out and we will talk about it inside.

She got this impression that my family did all this and made her take off the goggles. She got angry and things went sour. In no time, she was yelling at everyone. That was the time, my uncle and aunt tried to appease her that people here are conservative and some things which can be very normal to other places and can be abnormal here. But, she was all furious by now. She was like I come from a rich family from a big city and no one has stopped me from putting on the goggles.

It went bad and she thought my family has ganged up because no one in my family said that _no you did the right thing putting on the goggles, or yelling/shouting was justified_ . That was a bad nght. We were upstairs. My whole family was down stairs. She cried for hours. I begged not to. Then she fought with me that I did not stand up against my family. I said : _"you took the matter in your hand. You did not let me deal with my family"_. It went on and on. She started slapping her self. Not once or twice. She went on and on. She slapped and slapped. She pulled her hairs. And she kept yelling :"You ruined my life". That was the first time, long before she got pregnant, I was close to sure - I cannot grow old with her. rest is history.

9. have you always supported your wife when there have been differences between her and your family members? 
The above incident was the only big incident. When something like this happened. I did not take the sides. I try to be neutral. That could be one of my weaknesses. I am not sure how to take my wife's side when i know that she is just plain misbehaving with others. We could have discussed the matter within our bed room. Here in USA, when my M was on her trip, I will say to my mother - Mom, you are wrong and i could make M say Sorry. But, can i ever make my wife to say Sorry? Nope! Never. A "Sorry" is a strong word - it can make a relationship livable!



aine said:


> I ask these questions because unless your wife has PND or a BPD her actions are not normal. If these are not the case there is something more deep rooted, often in Indian marriages, the husband does put the wife last and takes care of everyone else. Blood family usually comes first and it leaves a wife feeling very unloved and abandoned. Have your considered your role in this? A man when he marries should put his wife first, not his mother, brother, sister, etc. I think there are serious matters surrounding this aspect which you have not explored. Your wife is not a good communicator and uses anger and infantilism to deal with it.


I do not think its fair to compare a well educated Indian couple living in USA with an Indian couple living in India with their parents and uncles and grandpas. It's totally different. I have lived in USA for 12 years and I know both the worlds very well. Calling my family once in a while is the best communication I have from here. I have made sure there is no communication between my W and my family - It has been close to 2 years. Still I get to hear how evil my family is. I am not sure how to address this. It always feels like one more slap on my face. Please do not suggest that I should stop calling my family.  The freshest example is from yesterday.

It was Sunday morning. I was in bedroom with my daughter. I called my bother and then my parents. We talked for like 10 mins. Meanwhile, I put the phone near my daughter's ear. She would say hello and will laugh. I did this couple of times. My brother was ecstatic hearing DD giggling. Note that this was not a skype or any form of video chat. 

My wife was in the restroom next to the bedroom I was in. 
_What were you doing?_
Just calling back home.
_Why were you making our DD talk to them?_
I was n't. (I lied to avoid the arguments. I hate myself when I do that)
_No you did make her talk to them. Do not lie._
Yes, I did. (I know now where everything is leading to)
_Please keep me and our DD separate from them._
Have I ever asked you to talk to them in last 2 years? She is also my child so she will talk.

So, what happens next? Another world war.


----------



## Uptown

ShameLessLover said:


> If I start to give her all my pay checks she will feel all so loved.


Yes, but only for a few days, if that long. If she has strong BPD traits as you believe, she is a bottomless pit of neediness that you cannot possibly satisfy. Trying to do so is as futile as trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun. BPDers have a desperate need to control every aspect of the loved one's personal life (as a response to their abandonment and engulfment fears). Although the BPDer is the controlling one, she is unaware of it because -- at a subconscious level -- she projects that need for control onto her partner. 

My exW, for example, always felt I was controlling her -- even when I was doing exactly what she wanted. If I surprised her with a gift of clothing, she resented the fact that I had been the one to pick it out (and hence the one in control) -- never mind that I was buying something she had already told me she wanted. Moreover, if I gave her some money to buy it herself, she resented me for being the one to decide when to give her the money. 

As a result, I earmarked a generous sum for her to have every month (far more than I ever spent on myself). She resented THAT because I was the one who decided the amount set aside for frivolous purchases. Of course, I had to be the one to decide because, as with your W, she would have driven me bankrupt if I had not set a limit on her discretionary spending.



> My relationship experience has taught me: being highly educated and emotionally healthy are two entirely different things.


Yes, that is my experience also. The vast majority of BPDers are high functioning. That is, they get along fine with nearly all casual friends, business associates, and total strangers -- because none of those folks draw close enough to them to trigger their two fears: abandonment and engulfment. The result is that many BPDers excel in some very demanding occupations such as teaching, nursing, medicine, and social work.


----------



## ShameLessLover

aine said:


> She is not mean to you all the time because she loves you but does not know how to communicate the hurt you have caused her by putting everyone else (your blood relatives) first before her. Now any contact with them sets her off. Indian woman want their own mothers to be there during confinement, not a mother in law, did you discuss this with her? Probably not. Have you looked at any of this from your wife's perspective or is she expected to play the good submissive daughter in law?


What about the hurt which was caused to me? As I mentioned in the last post, yes she wanted someone from my family to be here. Anyway, I do not think my mother or my family is an issue here. Issue is - "my emotional needs not being met". And so I am unhappy in this marriage - I feel like fish without water. Fish can't be happy on the land.

My wife is anything but submissive. Neither I would ever want her to be submissive. I want her to own a life and let me own mine. Do what you like to do and let me do what I like to do. But NO. She is a tigress in the shade of deer. She will charm me as deer and then eat me up like a tigress.



aine said:


> She was probably cooking and cleaning for the mil (this is expected in Indian culture). i just don't buy all of ShameLL's take on things. It sounds all very dramatic and from his own words he tends to put his blood family first. Not an ideal situation for any new mother.


I do not know how you get an idea that W was cooking and cleaning for the MIL. Most often, i have seen opposite where MIL will be treated like a maid. She would take care of the baby while the couple is out working - especially in cases like mine where i am working thousands of miles away from the home country. I have seen that these old people will come to stay with their sons/DIL leaving behind their life of 50-60 years. And i could see sadness on their faces - these pople would have limited/no knowledge of english or the culture. And they would be too old to adjust here.

Anyway, my M did not come to live here. She has a better and a lot more peaceful life back home. She was here to help us when my W was on the bed-rest. W needed to give M the freedom to do stuffs around the house. M was not a maid we brought from India. 

I know that my situation is very dramatic. That’s why I feel like banging my head on the wall. it is dramatic and that’s why I made sure that no one in my family has any communication with my W because any communication will be a bad communication. I know that it is not normal. one of us is wrong. I will be glad to know that I am the crazy one. Because I can fix my self!


----------



## aine

ShameLessLover said:


> Thanks Aine for bringing up a new perspective to the situation. Here you go.
> 
> 1. did you have an arranged marriage or love marriage?
> We met online, I was in US and she was in India. We talked close to an year before meeting. My M, uncle and a cousin went to her house to meet her. They were ecstatic to meet her. She was pretty, came from a nice family, very educated and she seemed very innocent, very giving. Her innocence kind of gave the impression - she is waiting for her prince charming to rescue her. Note that both of her parents were dead. The closest family she got is her uncle's family. My family thought that they found a daughter they never had.
> 
> I kind of felt the pressure of everything. I saw some red flags and I was hesitant - everything was going so fast. But I could not find any reason to say no. She would talk to me like she knew about me more than I ever known about mself.
> 
> 2. before your wife gave birth did you have these problems?
> Yes. Since day 1 of us living together i knew something was off. I always thought - may be - I am just not husband kind of material - I still think. I found her very much into me (so much that I will be short of breathing, I always am). There has been no space for me. Some examples from very early into living together. These are small stuff, but I thought , I would share.
> 
> a. She will keep our clothes together and they will all get mixed up. So, I asked her - can I keep my shirts and jeans in a separate closet? As I have to search for my stuff in the morning when I go to office. That ended up in arguments. She felt unloved that I am trying to keep myself separate from her. Arguments/ crying followed. Things always start with very small stuff.
> 
> b. I have always been into Latin dancing. She was so impressed about it. I was glad that she loved dancing. It was our fist outing together to this dance club. If you go to these places, the instructor will first teach simple steps for like 15-30 mins before the actual dancing begins. During this time, they rotate the partners. My wife was okay for first few minutes and then I saw her sitting in the corner. I asked - what happened? She said that she wants to go home. I was like we just came. She: "no I want to go home". So, we drove back. She was all the way very angry. She could not bear me holding another woman. We had arguments. If I only knew - I would not have gone to the club.
> 
> c. Very often, after an argument, she would drink 4-5 bottle of beer and become unresponsive. Note she never touches the alcohol. She would be angry and she will do this just to show me that- look, what I can do? She would say: I love you so much, I cannot live with out you and she will start crying.
> 
> d. Couple of times, she will just come out of the apartment in the late night after one of the arguments and start walking, And I will follow her and beg her to come back.
> 
> 3. Was your wife involved in the decision to bring your mother down from India to stay with you, or was that a unilateral decision?
> Yes, we will talk about that we really need some one from back home. I can promise that if my M would not have arrived here. _We would have been talking about how heartless my family have been that no one came when we needed them the most._
> 
> 4. when you make financial decisions, especially those helping other members of the family, do you discuss them with your wife or are they unilateral decisions?
> No, I do not. You may say I am a control freak. But If I start doing that - I will be screwed. The reason is that we could never built up the level of trust for each other that we start sharing all my finances with her. This is also one of the reason we have arguments.
> 
> My past experiences are bitter and which make me want not to share finances with her. A very trivial example: while my M was leaving for the airport, I gave her an IPOD for her trip back. This IPOD was about 4 years old and I bought that way before I knew my W. After W came to know about this. She was like :"How could you give my IPOD to your mother?". I said "Dude, you got an IPHONE, and that IPOD was never yours. That’s an old iPod which I bought long before". We had another round of arguments.
> 
> I agree though if I start to give her all my pay checks she will feel all so loved. But if love requires money - I am not into it.
> 
> 5. To what extent do you call the shots in your immediate family especially since your wife cannot drive etc, what say if any, does your wife have in the marriage, running of the home, finances, etc.
> 
> She takes all the shots except me not sharing all the finances. We do have a joint account which always have a few hundred dollars. When we go out together, I always use my card so joint account is only for her pocket money . On a weakened, I am my wife's driver. She tell me where to go and I go. I have learnt not to say NO. I say yes all the time except when she asks me to buy a house. LOL
> 
> 6. Is your wife educated, and to what level?
> She is a doctor by training and she has a masters degree. On paper, she is a highly educated person. My relationship experience has taught me: being highly educated and emotionally healthy are two entirely different things.
> 
> 7. is it possible your wife has post natal depression?
> She had some health issues after pregnancy. We went for physical therapy and now she takes some medics. I do not think the emotional/mental issue, which she has is due to her pregnancy. Any way, our DD is now 21 months old.
> 
> 8. has there been any incidents or interference in the past that would cause your wife to dislike your mother or family so much?
> I remember only one incident. That happened to our only trip together to my family. Now, since you brought this up. I come from a one of the remotest region of India. So society is conservative. She was wearing a dark goggles, which was drawing attractions from the onlookers. I did not notice. My brother did and he hinted this to me. I asked my W: "Can you please take out the goggles?" She: _Why?_ Me: Please just take it out and we will talk about it inside.
> 
> She got this impression that my family did all this and made her take off the goggles. She got angry and things went sour. In no time, she was yelling at everyone. That was the time, my uncle and aunt tried to appease her that people here are conservative and some things which can be very normal to other places and can be abnormal here. But, she was all furious by now. She was like I come from a rich family from a big city and no one has stopped me from putting on the goggles.
> 
> It went bad and she thought my family has ganged up because no one in my family said that _no you did the right thing putting on the goggles, or yelling/shouting was justified_ . That was a bad nght. We were upstairs. My whole family was down stairs. She cried for hours. I begged not to. Then she fought with me that I did not stand up against my family. I said : _"you took the matter in your hand. You did not let me deal with my family"_. It went on and on. She started slapping her self. Not once or twice. She went on and on. She slapped and slapped. She pulled her hairs. And she kept yelling :"You ruined my life". That was the first time, long before she got pregnant, I was close to sure - I cannot grow old with her. rest is history.
> 
> 9. have you always supported your wife when there have been differences between her and your family members?
> The above incident was the only big incident. When something like this happened. I did not take the sides. I try to be neutral. That could be one of my weaknesses. I am not sure how to take my wife's side when i know that she is just plain misbehaving with others. We could have discussed the matter within our bed room. Here in USA, when my M was on her trip, I will say to my mother - Mom, you are wrong and i could make M say Sorry. But, can i ever make my wife to say Sorry? Nope! Never. A "Sorry" is a strong word - it can make a relationship livable!
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think its fair to compare a well educated Indian couple living in USA with an Indian couple living in India with their parents and uncles and grandpas. It's totally different. I have lived in USA for 12 years and I know both the worlds very well. Calling my family once in a while is the best communication I have from here. I have made sure there is no communication between my W and my family - It has been close to 2 years. Still I get to hear how evil my family is. I am not sure how to address this. It always feels like one more slap on my face. Please do not suggest that I should stop calling my family.  The freshest example is from yesterday.
> 
> It was Sunday morning. I was in bedroom with my daughter. I called my bother and then my parents. We talked for like 10 mins. Meanwhile, I put the phone near my daughter's ear. She would say hello and will laugh. I did this couple of times. My brother was ecstatic hearing DD giggling. Note that this was not a skype or any form of video chat.
> 
> My wife was in the restroom next to the bedroom I was in.
> _What were you doing?_
> Just calling back home.
> _Why were you making our DD talk to them?_
> I was n't. (I lied to avoid the arguments. I hate myself when I do that)
> _No you did make her talk to them. Do not lie._
> Yes, I did. (I know now where everything is leading to)
> _Please keep me and our DD separate from them._
> Have I ever asked you to talk to them in last 2 years? She is also my child so she will talk.
> 
> So, what happens next? Another world war.


ShameLL, wow what a long answer, thank you! I know what you mean when you say one shouldn't compare a well educated Indian couple living in the US to one from India but the reality is, your wife is still very much rooted in the Indian culture.

Based on what you have written, your wife has problems which require individual counselling. You seem to be a very patient man. I wonder whether losing her parents or the way she lost them has had an impact on her psychological make up (I'm not an expert). Have you checked her medical history. Something doesn't gel and I cannot see anyway you can change things without her getting help as it looks like she is fighting for control of you in every aspect of your lives, it is not normal nor healthy. 

Does she go out at all to try and make a life outside the home, maybe do some charity work (she is a medical doctor, work for refugees or something), give talks, join clubs etc? If she doesn't drive how difficult is it for her to get out? Maybe she could join a young mothers club or something.
If she stays home alone alot I can see how she might become obsessive when you are around.This is not good for anyone's mental health. You are obviously independent, had a life before she came and resist the 'controlling' leading to the fights. 

When she is calm would you be able to talk about this with her?


----------



## ShameLessLover

aine said:


> ShameLL, wow what a long answer, thank you! I know what you mean when you say one shouldn't compare a well educated Indian couple living in the US to one from India but the reality is, your wife is still very much rooted in the Indian culture.


I think it’s more complicated than that. If my wife were deep rooted in Indian culture she would have appreciated the life where she does not has to deal with her in laws on a daily basis. And whenever we have visited or they visited us, she could have at least given them the minimum respect they deserve. Frankly, I am at a point, where I do not care if she likes or even respect my folks. But I hate it when she openly show disgust when she mentions them, which happens very often and which is one of the reasons why I do not feel love for her. 



aine said:


> Based on what you have written, your wife has problems which require individual counselling. You seem to be a very patient man. I wonder whether losing her parents or the way she lost them has had an impact on her psychological make up (I'm not an expert). Have you checked her medical history. Something doesn't gel and I cannot see anyway you can change things without her getting help as it looks like she is fighting for control of you in every aspect of your lives, it is not normal nor healthy.


Honestly, I do not think I am a patient man. I used to be patient. I get irritated very easily now. 
I have no access to her medical history. No idea how to get any detail.



aine said:


> Does she go out at all to try and make a life outside the home, maybe do some charity work (she is a medical doctor, work for refugees or something), give talks, join clubs etc? If she doesn't drive how difficult is it for her to get out? Maybe she could join a young mothers club or something.
> If she stays home alone alot I can see how she might become obsessive when you are around.This is not good for anyone's mental health. You are obviously independent, had a life before she came and resist the 'controlling' leading to the fights.
> 
> When she is calm would you be able to talk about this with her?


She has no life outside the home. I am always driving her around. I am her driver during the weekends. I am her driver when she has to go for any appointment during the week (I work close and I have to come from work to drive her around). She volunteered once but yes again I was driving her there and picking her up. Please do not ask me why she does not learn to drive - that’s a long story in itself. I do not think she has any real friends either.

Ha - she will be very calm and cool and all that. But, she would be just a min away from the explosion. I think in her subconcious mind, she is afraid of addressing the real issues and so she has all this anger/tantrum as defense mechanism.


----------



## aine

ShameLessLover said:


> I think it’s more complicated than that. If my wife were deep rooted in Indian culture she would have appreciated the life where she does not has to deal with her in laws on a daily basis. And whenever we have visited or they visited us, she could have at least given them the minimum respect they deserve. Frankly, I am at a point, where I do not care if she likes or even respect my folks. But I hate it when she openly show disgust when she mentions them, which happens very often and which is one of the reasons why I do not feel love for her.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I do not think I am a patient man. I used to be patient. I get irritated very easily now.
> I have no access to her medical history. No idea how to get any detail.
> 
> 
> 
> She has no life outside the home. I am always driving her around. I am her driver during the weekends. I am her driver when she has to go for any appointment during the week (I work close and I have to come from work to drive her around). She volunteered once but yes again I was driving her there and picking her up. Please do not ask me why she does not learn to drive - that’s a long story in itself. I do not think she has any real friends either.
> 
> Ha - she will be very calm and cool and all that. But, she would be just a min away from the explosion. I think in her subconcious mind, she is afraid of addressing the real issues and so she has all this anger/tantrum as defense mechanism.



How long has she been in the US? Trailing spouse (expat) women can suffer from culture shock. It sounds like she totally depends on you and makes no effort to assimilate in her new environment. This is often a symptom which can result in depression, outbursts of anger, hiding away in the house, her whole life revolves around you and your DD, etc. If she is as educated as you say she is can take steps to help herself. You need to help her to see this and the fact that she cannot be wholly dependent on you, this is not healthy for anyone. She has to make an effort to live life for herself.


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## turnera

Sounds like if she has to live alone she might realize what she's throwing away. She probably doesn't realize how much she takes you for granted.


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## ShameLessLover

aine said:


> How long has she been in the US? Trailing spouse (expat) women can suffer from culture shock. It sounds like she totally depends on you and makes no effort to assimilate in her new environment. This is often a symptom which can result in depression, outbursts of anger, hiding away in the house, her whole life revolves around you and your DD, etc.


She has been in US for 3 and half years. I doubt that this is due to cultural shock. It's just her. It's her personality. Her upbringing has some role in it. She grew up in a wealthy family - she got everything without much effort. Her brother or uncle or dad always accompanied her for everything. Being an expat does make everything worse.

She does make friends but it's not friendship in real sense. It's very artificial. I do not think she has any real friends. I mean someone - who can help you when you need, or with whom you feel comfortable talking about stuff. Someone is a good friend till he/she agrees with my wife's views (about anything).

Yes, I am her life. I am the reason she is happy and I am the reason of all her misery. 



aine said:


> If she is as educated as you say she is can take steps to help herself.


In her world, she is as normal as it gets. She is a loving mother, great wife, excellent home maker, a great friend, awesome host. Her husband is a self made, very smart guy and she is so proud of him . She has a perfect life. Why would she change that? Yes, its just her husband get influenced by his evil and crazy family. His family want to ruin her home. Her husband is like a beautiful flower grown in filth.

Someone would seek help only if she/he think something is off. Nothing is off in her world.



aine said:


> You need to help her to see this and the fact that she cannot be wholly dependent on you, this is not healthy for anyone. She has to make an effort to live life for herself.


Not sure - how? Counselling is one option but she is not up for it. I have tried.


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## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> Sounds like if she has to live alone she might realize what she's throwing away. She probably doesn't realize how much she takes you for granted.


Her life will be total wreck - I know that. She would make it look a lot worse than it would actually be - I know that too. And our daughter will have to suffer - at least half the time -for at least next 16 years.

Could you please comment on my post #114?


----------



## aine

ShameLessLover said:


> She has been in US for 3 and half years. I doubt that this is due to cultural shock. It's just her. It's her personality. Her upbringing has some role in it. She grew up in a wealthy family - she got everything without much effort. Her brother or uncle or dad always accompanied her for everything. Being an expat does make everything worse.
> 
> She does make friends but it's not friendship in real sense. It's very artificial. I do not think she has any real friends. I mean someone - who can help you when you need, or with whom you feel comfortable talking about stuff. Someone is a good friend till he/she agrees with my wife's views (about anything).
> 
> Yes, I am her life. I am the reason she is happy and I am the reason of all her misery.
> 
> 
> In her world, she is as normal as it gets. She is a loving mother, great wife, excellent home maker, a great friend, awesome host. Her husband is a self made, very smart guy and she is so proud of him . She has a perfect life. Why would she change that? Yes, its just her husband get influenced by his evil and crazy family. His family want to ruin her home. Her husband is like a beautiful flower grown in filth.
> 
> Someone would seek help only if she/he think something is off. Nothing is off in her world.
> 
> 
> Not sure - how? Counselling is one option but she is not up for it. I have tried.


Sometimes people do not recognise their wrongs or hurtful actions until faced with them. Would it be possible to record her outbursts and then present them to her and show her it is not normal behaviour?
Are you in any counselling for yourself? Perhaps you should be.
You may well have to make the decision to leave her/separate if you are losing yourself and she refuses to recognise what is happening.


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## turnera

ShameLessLover said:


> Say, the day she gets the paper, I do not come back home. I plan not to come back home after that day. The reason -I know how bad it would get - the arguments/shouting/yelling/crying/emotional-vulnerability - I do not think I would be able to take it. Now, as I do not come back, it would be seen as _abandonment_.
> 
> Based on my last visit to a lawyer, I do not think a lawyer can write such letter - only a judge can grant that, which may take about a month. So meanwhile, it would depend on my W if she lets me see our DD. Or, I can come back and beg. Or, I can come back and create a scene. But, after she being served the paper -* I want to be at peace - I would not want to be part of any drama*.


You asked me to comment on this.

My comment is that a man who would purposely lose out on something he wants just to have peace or avoid drama needs some good hard instruction on how to be a man. Maybe find some male role model in his life and get lessons on what a man does, how he does what's right even if it's hard, and how he doesn't make choices based on not having to face hardship. IMO, the reason you are IN this mess is precisely because of this failure of yours.


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## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> IMO, the reason you are IN this mess is precisely because of this failure of yours.


Turnera, unfortunately I agree. I have messed up sense of boundary. I have also come to conclusion that i have become pasive aggresive and develpoed a Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD).

I hope and wish to come out all of this.

I definitely were not like this! 


PS: I was banned but now I am back. Thanks to Amplexor!


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## turnera

What books have you read about this?


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## Uptown

ShameLessLover said:


> I have also come to conclusion that i have... developed a Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD)


Shame, welcome back! If you've been living with a BPDer for several years, consider yourself lucky that you've only developed a GAD problem. As I noted over two years ago (post #14 above), of the 157 mental disorders listed in the DSM-5, BPD is the one most notorious for making a large share of the abused spouses and partners feel like they are going crazy. 

Hence, if your W has strong BPD traits as you suspected, it is not surprising you feel very anxious. Indeed, it wouldn't be surprising if you felt like you may be losing your mind. Living with an emotionally unstable woman -- who can flip in seconds between Jekyll and Hyde -- usually causes the abused partners to feel extremely confused and disoriented.


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## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> What books have you read about this?


I was going to a counselor cum psychologist. She said that I probably have a GAD - I agree. She told me to read more about it. Then she gave me this book - _Keys to eliminating passive-aggressiveness by Andrea Brandt_. The definition of person with passive-aggressive suits me so well. It makes sense too. I understand that I have developed a coping mechanism - I perceive myself as a victim/powerless and/or I fear that using my power will lead to bad outcome. It's like I wear a mask to cover all the unacceptable emotions, which makes me very resentful from inside.



Uptown said:


> Indeed, it wouldn't be surprising if you felt like you may be losing your mind. Living with an emotionally unstable woman -- who can flip in seconds between Jekyll and Hyde -- usually causes the abused partners to feel extremely confused and disoriented.


I do agree that I have become very confused. I do not have big enough [email protected] to leave and the patience (which is required to validate and initiate healthy boundaries) or a real commitment to bring happiness. I think I probably am too soft of a person to put a boundary.

Right now, I am trying to focus on myself - How to be happy? And I am kind of lost here. It looks like I need to take care of myself before I can deal with my wife.


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## turnera

Another book that might help with the passive aggressiveness is No More Mr Nice Guy. Many times, Nice Guys will become P/A out of fear they aren't worthy enough, so they try to get what they want by covert contracts (manipulating people). I bet you'll recognize yourself in it.


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## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> Another book that might help with the passive aggressiveness is No More Mr Nice Guy. Many times, Nice Guys will become P/A out of fear they aren't worthy enough, so they try to get what they want by covert contracts (manipulating people). I bet you'll recognize yourself in it.


Thanks Turnera, I will look into this book.


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## ShameLessLover

I am in very bad shapetoday. I have a bad headache - heart rate feels really slow, legs and feet feel light. THe kinds of feeling you get - when you feel like you are going to die. Headache is very bad - i want to hold something really tight. I do not know what to do. i feel like losing myself.

For last couple days, i was in persistent pressure of buying a house. It was too much. I emailed her in the morning today that I will not buy a house where i cannot invite any of family memebers even for a few days. I need that hope before I think of buying the house. She was pissed. lots of rambing thru emails/texts. Same old stuff - that I bring my family in everything. GOt over 50 calls, over 50 texts about 5 emails and it's about 8 PM. I did not respnd to the phone/texts. I only sent an email sometime back that I willl not come to home tonight as I need time to think over the situation.

I had an option to go back and be part of the same tantrum. and be resentful. But instead, I went to lawyer during the day. signed the papers. Aked him to file for the divorce and serve the paper. If I do not stop the lawyer, my wife will be served by tomorrow evening. This is where I started to feel like my world is crumbing down and i see my daughter's face in it. I am sooo afraid about everything. 

Since, I came from attorneys office - I am a wreck. I am praying to god to give me strength to go through this. I have a constant fear about how my duaghter is. Is she okay? Is her mother crying and my 2 yr just watching her. I hate this feeling. I miss my daughter. I am scared. very scared of how my wife is coping wiht it tonight and how she will take the news tomorrow. I wish we had good common friends who could go and support her.


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## Uptown

ShameLessLover said:


> I have a bad headache - heart rate feels really slow, legs and feet feel light.... Since, I came from attorneys office - I am a wreck.


Shame, I'm sorry to hear you are suffering from such enormous stress. Being the excessive caregiver that you are (and that I am), you have magnified your stress ten fold worrying about how your two children (your D and your W) are going to deal with the divorce. For what it's worth, I and numerous other respondents believe you are doing the right thing in divorcing, given what you've told us. I suggest you see a doctor to obtain a sedative to calm your nerves and help you get through this.



> I will not buy a house where i cannot invite any of family memebers even for a few days. I need that hope before I think of buying the house.


Even if your W's attitude toward your family changed, it would not change her immature emotional development, which is at the level of a four year old if she has strong BPD traits. It would not change her false self image of always being "The Victim." It would not change her inability to appreciate all the sacrifices you've made for her. It would not change your parent/child relationship into a husband/wife relationship. Nor would it make her suddenly capable of trusting you. Until she learns how to trust herself, she will remain incapable of trusting anyone else.


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## turnera

I really think you're doing the right thing. Your daughter isn't old enough for this one event to be that traumatic for her; she will adjust to the new life, and the benefit is that, when she's with you, she will see a stable, happy, healthy lifestyle, and is more likely to grow up happy and healthy for it.

And as we've said, this may just be the impetus your wife needs to grow up and get help. You never know. You can always remarry.


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## ShameLessLover

I chickened out. I could not take it. I went back to home about 10 PM. I was all okay till I was awake and talking to a friend (I was crashing @ a friend's place). Something happened as soon as I went to bed. It was dark -and I felt really helpless and scared. The feeling was horrible - I missed my daughter. 

I do realize now that I have imagined the stress much more than it really is. But I could not help the feelings I got. I was like 5 year old who wanted to hold the hand pf parents who are going to solve all the problems. Just hold tight. I know it sounds childish but that’s how I felt. Very helpless. I always considered myself emotionally strong - those guys who never cry - but I felt really weak in that moment.

I wonder - if I would ever be able to go through a divorce. I pray and really wish to have that strength. I admire you all who can go through it.



Uptown said:


> I suggest you see a doctor to obtain a sedative to calm your nerves and help you get through this.


One thing I am scared more than anything - loosing my mind. I really do not want any medication. Can you please suggest some natural ways? The dark room - going to bed- being alone - did the trick. And I encountered horrible stress and went back.



Uptown said:


> Even if your W's attitude toward your family changed….


I wonder what iff she does that exactly. That would be a major step. Constant nagging, continuous disgust about my upbringing and family - is the one thing, I cannot deal with- and that’s why there is so much friction in this relationship.


----------



## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> I really think you're doing the right thing. Your daughter isn't old enough for this one event to be that traumatic for her; she will adjust to the new life, and the benefit is that, when she's with you, she will see a stable, happy, healthy lifestyle, and is more likely to grow up happy and healthy for it.
> 
> And as we've said, this may just be the impetus your wife needs to grow up and get help. You never know. You can always remarry.


Thanks Turnera!
I wish for that strength, assertiveness and calmness.


----------



## turnera

Then start seeing a therapist every.single.week. You need a LOT of help, if you can't handle a single night alone and go running home to mommy.


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## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> Then start seeing a therapist every.single.week. You need a LOT of help, if you can't handle a single night alone and go running home to mommy.


Not Mommy.
but my Daughter (and her well being)!

I would have divorced long time back if i were not a dad.


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## turnera

Oh please.


----------



## Uptown

> I wonder what if she does that exactly. That would be a major step. Constant nagging, continuous disgust about my upbringing and family - is the one thing, I cannot deal with- and that’s why there is so much friction in this relationship.


You miss my point, Shame. I was saying that, if she's a BPDer as you suspect, solving one disagreement (e.g., treatment of your family) only means it will be immediately replaced by another just as bad. Because a BPDer feels a terrible emptiness inside, she has an overpowering desire to fill her life up with drama. This is why BPDers typically are interested in only creating DRAMA, not finding solutions or workable compromises.


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## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> Then start seeing a therapist every.single.week. You need a LOT of help, if you can't handle a single night alone and go running home to mommy.


You are right - what should a man like me should do?
I ahve been seeing a therapist. If you ask - it would appear that counselling is helpful - but it did not make a dent about how i feel. 

I started going by myself then couple counselling for a few months. I have seen the therapist more individually than as a couple.


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## turnera

I fought for years to get my H to go to couple counseling, I thought it would fix things. He finally went when he realized I was done if he didn't go. But since he only went because I forced him to, nothing changed. It was only when I gave up on that direction that I realized that it wasn't couples counseling that I needed. It was individual counseling, because the only person I can control is ME. And it was ME who needed more counseling so I could learn to stand up for myself, take care of myself, and put in place strong boundaries and have the strength to follow through with the consequences. THAT is the only way things change.

And guess what? You will be going for months and months, maybe even a year or two, before your BRAIN starts incorporating what you're learning in therapy into real-world changes. 

In the meantime, what you need is MALE friends or family to act as mentors and support - to support you in doing the right things, the hard things, when you have moments of weakness.

If she's really BPD, there is nothing you can do to make things better except make YOU strong enough to not bend under her disease.


----------



## ShameLessLover

Although, I do not come and post here often, I keep reading what everyone has wrote. So, thank You.

And If I do not come here often, that means - I am being selfish and probably somewhat okay in day-to-day lives.

Okay days does not last very long. After a few months. I start to feel stuck, hopeless, and very very tired. So tired that I would not want to do anything. So tired that it starts to affect my work - I just survive. And When I come back to home after work - I would just want to go to bed and sleep.

Since, my last post, We were on vacation to our home country for like a month. How was it? It was better than how I would have felt if I would not have gone. So - it was "Okay". W and DD went to her family and I went to my family (Our families lives over 800 miles away ). So, I dropped of them to her family and picked them up before coming back. My family did not see my DD (my brother did meet my DD for like 5-10 minutes - he flew to meet ). 




turnera said:


> And guess what? You will be going for months and months, maybe even a year or two, before your BRAIN starts incorporating what you're learning in therapy into real-world changes.
> 
> If she's really BPD, there is nothing you can do to make things better except make YOU strong enough to not bend under her disease.


Frankly, I am sick of counselling. Let me explain. (PS: though I am still looking for a counselor in my area who can help me stand up) 

The last counselling lasted for over 3-4 months. I was clear that I want to better/strengthen myself so I chose who was also a psychologist with a PhD. I wanted to be able to be strong enough to put a healthy boundary and stand up for what I believe in. Although it may not appear from outside; In my heart, I am very weak, tired and cowardice (very contrary to my life before I met my W, I am over achiever to the people/friends where I come from and how I moved up to the ladder, people look up to me and come for advice). 

I would rate these sessions only 10% of success as_ now I can get my DD talk to my parents on phone_ - W does not make a scene over this. The counselor (IC) successfully pushed me to bring my W to the counselling. She suggested forgiveness (I have no clarity what to forgive) and a better communication between me and W. IC tried hard for us to communicate better- I do not think it did a dent though.

At one point, the counsellor suggested that why I am so much about inviting my family to US. She said that after I told her that it aches when I see other grand parents playing/spending time with their grand children - I want my daughter to have the same connection, at least I want to try. IC suggested that your dad is old and sick anyway (I have mentioned this to her before) - so even if he comes to the US he wont be able to play with your daughter. I felt sick when she said that. 

She did push my wife very hard once asking why she has to be the boss of the family all the time. W refused me taking DD to meet my family. We needed more such sessions. Anyway, we went for THAT vacation after this session. We have not been to counselling since.

I have been to 3 more counsellors before the above one. Each time I went for individual counselling but they all suggested couple counselling after a few sessions. So it got automatically discontinued because it was not going anywhere.

Now, I am looking to start afresh with this counselling business. Any help will be appreciated. I am located in OR. And this time, I want to go for a male counsellor. And I want to make sure - this is for myself.



turnera said:


> In the meantime, what you need is MALE friends or family to act as mentors and support - to support you in doing the right things, the hard things, when you have moments of weakness.


I am not rich in this department. I feel evertyhing which has strengthened my life in past is slowly going away.


----------



## Uptown

Shame, it is simply appalling to hear that you flew all the way to your home country with your young daughter but were unable to take her with you when leaving your W's parents to visit your own parents. I don't understand why your attorney cannot use your W's email statements (about wanting to take her own life if you don't return) against her in child custody hearings. If you no longer have such emails or voice messages, you likely can easily collect them again when you announce your desire to divorce.


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## turnera

Your IC needs to be about YOU learning that YOU can make changes in your life with or without your wife. Until you can clearly see and feel that you'll be ok without her, you have no power over your own life. No control. You are at her mercy. Ask your IC to help you build up your own self worth so that you can effect more changes with or without her.

And for heaven's sake, get some antidepressants! Everything you describe is 100% depression. My IC explained to me that if you go through a bad period in life for a long enough time, your body uses up the 'happy chemicals' in your body that make you feel good, give you energy, make you excited about things, make you not want to sleep all the time. This chemical normally gets replaced when good things happen, so you have it at the ready the next time things are grim. But if you go through a long, extended period of 'grim,' you keep using up the happy chemical but never experience good times to refill the well, so to speak. 

And that's when you have to take antidepressants, at least temporarily. She told me that the ADs will 'prime the pump' to get the happy chemicals to start flowing again, and then you can get off of them and be ok again.


----------



## ShameLessLover

Uptown said:


> Shame, it is simply appalling to hear that you flew all the way to your home country with your young daughter but were unable to take her with you when leaving your W's parents to visit your own parents. I don't understand why your attorney cannot use your W's email statements (about wanting to take her own life if you don't return) against her in child custody hearings. If you no longer have such emails or voice messages, you likely can easily collect them again when you announce your desire to divorce.


 Yes. I need to work on ME first.


To her defense she agreed to let our DD meet my family at a place somewhere between our hometowns. I did not like the idea - so refused.


----------



## ShameLessLover

turnera said:


> And for heaven's sake, get some antidepressants! Everything you describe is 100% depression. My IC explained to me that if you go through a bad period in life for a long enough time, your body uses up the 'happy chemicals' in your body that make you feel good, give you energy, make you excited about things, make you not want to sleep all the time. This chemical normally gets replaced when good things happen, so you have it at the ready the next time things are grim. But if you go through a long, extended period of 'grim,' you keep using up the happy chemical but never experience good times to refill the well, so to speak.
> 
> And that's when you have to take antidepressants, at least temporarily. She told me that the ADs will 'prime the pump' to get the happy chemicals to start flowing again, and then you can get off of them and be ok again.


Yes, I am looking for another IC.

Thanks- I think its time I should start taking AD (although I am scared of getting used to it). Last time (couple of months back) my physician prescribed me some which he suggested to take when I felt the need of (I never took). He also asked me not to drive when I take the medicines. I am meeting him again next week. I will see if he prescribes something which does not interfere with my driving.


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## turnera

I take Paxil occasionally and I can't even tell I'm taking anything, except for the ability to get things done and just feel stronger about accomplishing things.


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## love2laugh

I didn't read all the comments so this might have been covered... If you want to make sure you see your child after splitting you need to document her mental instability. You should get a lawyers advice about how best to do this.


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## ShameLessLover

love2laugh said:


> I didn't read all the comments so this might have been covered... If you want to make sure you see your child after splitting you need to document her mental instability. You should get a lawyers advice about how best to do this.


Thanks L2L. For now - I am trying to focus on myself. If yuo meet my W now - she would appear the happiest and the most normal. I got to focus on myself. I know it sounds confusing considering the title of my thread.

My plan is :|:
1. Get anti-depressant and stop getting low and anxious. Do it before it gets worse.
2. Find a good IC and work on growing my balls- so that when time comes - i can talk to my W and face the storm it would bring - I can satnd up for things which are dear to me.


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## katiecrna

So I quickly looked through this thread. The way your wife is treating you is obviously not ok. But for some reason, I actually feel sorry for her, and I think a huge part of this story (her side) is being left out. I'm sure she feels unloved by you. And she is jealous of your love and devotion for your mother. My problem is... Why are you being so fake and two faced. She at least tells you the truth to your face. But you are playing her, saying one thing and doing another. This behavior is childish (like hers), and infuriating. If you want to divorce her, just divorce her. Don't drag her through the mud because your scared to be the bad guy. And do not surprise her with a divorce, she is completely dependent, no job and newborn baby. You need to tell her you are unhappy, and can't see yourself staying in this marriage of things continue this way. This way she won't be blindsided, and at least give her a chance to try and change. If you don't talk honestly to her about what your feeling and why your unhappy, she can't change and it's really not fair. 
You seem very scared of her, and walking on egg shells and basically living a fake life to appease her so she doesn't get mad and make your life uncomfortable. Your scared to be the bad guy but not everything is about you. She had feelings too and you need to be respectful and be honest with her. 
Here's my advice: 
Tell her the honest truth. Accept that she will get mad, cause a fit and probably throw things, you need to just accept that that will happen. Tell her you are unhappy, and tell her why. Give her a change to change. She deserves time to try to make the marriage work. Try to make it work. Divorce is sad, and it's not easy, and it's not good for the children. Before you file for divorce, make sure you guys did everything possible to make your marriage work. This way, both of you can say you tried, and hopefully the divorce won't be traumatic and you guys can hopefully retain mutual respect for each other for the child. 

I definitely loose my temper with my husband and it's because he drives me crazy sometimes and I feel like he doesn't love/respect/understand me. I know that her behavior is unacceptable, but try just being nice to her, try understanding her and showing her love and affection. At the same time be firm with boundaries. If she is getting upset, take a time out and walk away before it escalates into being physical. Do not push her buttons or egg her on. Make a list of things that are unacceptable to you... Ie. Do not say anything negative about my mom. Do not speak to her negatively. Have her read it and discuss it. If she feels like ur mom is doing somthing to drive her crazy, then tell her to come to you first, talk through it, and you can talk to your mom or sometimes all a women needs is a hug and being told that you understand it's hard I have her here but you really appreciate her being so good to her because it's important to you.
You are not innocent and you have faults too. Have a honest talk with her. Calmly. Stop when things get heated. Be nice when talking to her, no women wants to hear what your about to say, she's hurt and she responds by being angry. Try to understand where she is coming from and speak to her from the side of compassion, not from angry unhappy husband.


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## ShameLessLover

Two years went by since my last post. The story remains the same Except that my DD is almost 5 now.

I am still confused. Some days are better than others.

I still have to struggle and have to face resistance if I want to go back to my home county and want to take my DD there. 
My DD has not gone to see my family yet. My family once came to see DD - (had to make them stay in a separate apartment).

Just thinking about filing for divorce makes me very very nervous (now even more than before - my DD @ 5 can sense so much).


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## aine

ShamelssLover said:


> Me and my wife have been married for 2 and half years- 34 and 32 yrs old. We both are from Asia, I came to USA about 10 yrs back and my wife came 2 yrs back. Since day 1 of living together - we have issues. I find her very possessive and the most insecure person in the whole world. She lives in her own fantasy world where she is always right. She is an angel if I follow everything to please her. But there is another part of her personality, where she can be violent or cry baby – I am the only one who sees that. I have been lucky, that cops never showed up during one of those incidents. Was this a love marriage or arranged marriage? I had this problem when I married my Asian husband in his country. You married this woman and you must put her first. A man leaves his mother and father and is united to his wife. This is why she is feeling so insecure and in a foreign land too, this is your doing. How old is she? She might be a bit of a diva if she came from a rich family and was Daddy's girl, now she is relegated to perhaps 3 or 4 in your life. You need to be more patient and loving and put her first, bottom line if you want a happy marriage. My H could never see that until we went to MC years later, by then the damage was done, now I do not give a **** and don't have a great relationship with my inlaws, I get on with them because I chose not to care but he lost my respect because of it which caused many other problems in our marriage. Be a man and cut the umbilical cord. It is a painful thing when your H chooses his family over you, esp if you have left your own family and country far behind, if you cannot depend on your H to put you as no one in his life, then what is the point of being married?
> 
> My wife has deep down hatred for my parents, brother, uncles, cousins -everyone in my family. My Wife has always this thing that she is from a rich family and my whole family is backward. If I could just disconnect with everyone in my family - our life will be good. She is being totally unreasonable, but to be frank if you were putting her first, then she probably would be more accepting of your family But, I just cannot. I cannot live without talking to my parents or family members. We always have been very close.Too close by the sounds of it, you do not have to cut out your family, but you do have to reassure your wife she is first in your life. She will then come around And they are integral part of my life. Loving/respecting them is not my duty or obligation, but it's life. I just cannot detach. I want to take care of my parents when they are old. I want then to live with us here in USA. It looks like you just got a wife to set up your life regardless of the consequences on her. Is this something you have disussed with your wife and come to an agreeable soluton. You sound incredibly self centred or perhaps stupid. I know the culture follows this line with parents living with the son, but my H is the oldest son and he chose not to, cause he knows it would make me miserable having them live with us. His parents lived with us for a year due to ill health issues and we knew it wouldn't work out. He got them another house within 30 minutes drive. He respects me, and I am Queen in my home (which I paid for too) you do not respect your wife and putting parents first is asking for trouble. I cannot just forget what hardships they have gone through for making me what I am today. The origin of my W's hatred comes from the fact that I love my parents a lot. My wife thinks that I help everyone in my family financially too and buy gifts - which is party true. But I want to do all this. You are now married, therefore you and your wife must discuss these things, it is not only your decision, otherwise you will end up divorces and it will serve you right as you are obviously only focused on what YOU want and what YOUR family wants, do you even love your wife or care for her at all? You sound like a bit of a mama's boy, cut the apron strings, be a man and leader or your own family, which is your wife and kid
> 
> Things got to the worst when my mother was visiting us about 2 months back. My wife was about 9 mo pregnant. Things started with small stuffs. My wife will always complain about the things my mom will do. Then my mom will say something, then my wife will give a lecture. In short, my wife was so pissed one evening that she shouted at mother: "I did not ask you to come here and live with us, your son did" "You have ruined our family - You can just go from here". That was a bad night, I took my mom to a friend's place and she lived there for like two weeks. She was just waiting for the baby to come up and then she could just leave for India. This is all on you, in the culture, normally it is the mother who looks after the daughter in pregnancy and post natal. Why was it your mother and not her mother, your decision, right? Very few women would want their mother in law to be involved in their pregnancy or post natal period. I had my MIL through no choice of my own, because I was in SE Asia (his home country). I am Western and my MIL was forcing me to do things, stay in bed, wear clothing, no air con (in the tropics) eat strange stuff etc I tried to be respectful for 2 weeks and then told them all to piss off and went home alone with my baby and did everything for myself. They were not happy but my H supported my decision. You are doing everything wrong especially when she is at her most vulnerable in pregnancy and post natal. You have shown her you do not care about her at all or her wishes. You do not need a wife, only a baby incubator so you can continue the line I guess, you are very obtuse
> 
> However, after the baby came, I had to bring my mother back because I was really tired and I needed some help at home. I knew this may not going to work but I had no choice. However, just after like 10 days,my wife verbally abused her again and kicked her out of the house. Her words :"ask this woman to leave". "she came here to ruin our family". She has to go right now. SHE HAS TO GO. (yes, it was louder than it sounds). The main reason of her misbehavior stems from my talking to mother after work, or taking her out for errands - W thought my mother is taking control over me - but that’s not true. We only have your word for it, but sounds like you are a mama's boy. Why couldn't someone from your wife's family come, her sister, mother etc? You also ought to know that two Queens in the one kingdom does not work, you have allowed your mother to be inserted in your marriage. Your wife may want to spend this time with your and your new child without your Mother as the interloper. I also suspect as you have not cut the aprons strings, your mother has too much say in what happens in your household and your listen to her more about what should be done with the baby etc. That is absolutel disaster for your marriage but you have noone to blame but yourself. Believe me it will come back to haunt you. YOu cannot have two women vying for priority in your life, grow up an stop being a mamas boy. I tell you this because I have been in exactly the same position and it took my H a long tim to see the problem. Your wife married YOU not your mother and whole family
> 
> I will copy paste the incident that night from my diary:
> 
> ****
> Things started with: I asked her to put some better clothes - I could see her underwear.You sound really nice to be around, I feel sorry for your wife, she woudn't have to worry about her clothes if your mother wasn't there, you were doing it for your mother right? m has to go right now. I can cook my own food. Bla bla... She has ruined our lives." Me:"Mom is not going anywhere if you want to go , you can". We yell at each other. She gets pissed, her words: "if you like her so much why don't you just have her!" Your wife resents your mother and I can totally understand why, you obviously do everything to please your motherIt makes me angry- I get out of the bed room.
> 
> My mother is in the other room , and possibly heard our shouting. My W comes out of her bed room. She keeps talking **** about my mother. Mother comes out of her room. Her words : xxx, what did I do wrong? W's words: "It's you who have done everything, we were happier before, please go from my life". My mom cries. I asked mom to go inside the room and do not say anything between us. Because, whatever my mother says that will be a negative thing. She goes inside.
> 
> Me and my W keep yelling at each other- the baby is in the bed room and probably listening but asleep. Things get bad - W start throwing chairs. Her words : I want her to GO RIGHTNOW. YES RIGHTNOW. SHE RUINED US. I shout too - her words make me sad and angry- "if my mom leaves, I am leaving too and not coming back. She should let you go, and be with your mama, you have no respect for your wife's wishes at all. Yes she is not handling this well, but I suspect you are not telling us the whole story about how your mother ended up coming to your house for your wife's pregnancy, obviously it was your decision, and also not cultural, why is that? Do whatever." She goes towards the room my mom is in. She pounds at the door, door opens. Her words "You have to go right now. This is what you came for, to ruin our lives. You want us to be separated. You want us to be divorced. You just leave. GET OUT from here - it's my home." W comes to me :"she has to go , make her out RIGHTNOW". I say: give me 15 minutes and I will take her to somewhere. She :"NO. RIGHTNOW means RIGHTNOW." It's about mid night - I just hope some body does not call 911 and cops show up. I kinda wished for that - I did not want to live any single moment with this girl. Better go and live with your mother, you don't need a wife, you are not mature enough to have a wifey
> 
> I go to mom's r.oom. Ask her to pack the bags -"we are leaving". Mom is crying. I am crying, and my wife is being a bi%$h. She could be so unreasonable and insensitive - I never knew! It hurts. It kills. Mom is packing the bag on the carpet in her room. I am standing there- sad and distraught - what the F$%^ I have done to my life. My mother does not deserve all these. You married your wife, not your mother, you have allowed this situation to happen. No woman wants her mother in law pulling the strings of her husband or holding his mother higher than her. Simple fact.
> 
> Meanwhile, W comes to the room. She knows I am also leaving with my mother. Her words: "Please do not go - I do not care if she (looking at my mom with known disgust) lives here or not, but I cannot live without you". She has absolutely zero respect for the people - I love /admire/respect. How can someone call it love? If this is love - I do not give a damn! She treated my mother like a dirt. I can still see the disgust on my W's face when she ever talk about my mother.
> 
> About midnight: Anyway, I got mom's luggage and came out of the apartment. My mom cried. I had tears. Never imagined such a good bye for her. She could not see her granddaughter before she left. It was bad. We went to a friend's place and lived there for another 2-3 days. Then she left.
> 
> *******
> 
> I can go with the many incidents here- but I will stop . I have been thinking of separation, and I would like to have your views. We have 2 months old baby and things are going to be difficult. I can see this relationship would not last long. I cannot keep letting things happen. I can see a pattern. I do not want to feel like a slave in my home.
> 
> My Wife has no regrets of what she has done an d how much hurt she has caused. Her words: “What I did to your mother- she deserved it.” It’s not the first time she has shown this misbehavior but it has happened in the past. I am more sad that she does n’t even realize that her actions hurt me. People may argue that it was all my mother’s fault but still you do not kick your husband’s mother out in the middle of night in a foreign land. She lives in her own world where she is the victim and I and my whole families are culprits.


 Your wife sounds very unreasonable, to kick your mother out in the middle of the night, but frankly this does not make sense, what exactly did your mother say. There is more to the story than this. You paint your mother as an innocent angel, which isnt the entire truth is is. Something must have been said to precipitate your wife's reaction? I am not buying your story

Realised now that this is an old post and I predicted it correctly, your marriage is in shambles because you failed to step up and be a man who leads his own family, (wife and kid). You put your mother and family before your wife and now you are reaping what you sowed. If you had only put her first, showed her she was your queen, then I guarantee you everything would have fallen into place. When your wife needed you, you did not choose her, you chose your mama. What is it with Indian men, the majority of you cannot cut the apron strings?


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## Uptown

Shameless, as we've been discussing for the past five years, the behaviors you describe are classic warning signs for BPD. As someone who lived with a BPDer for 15 years, I know how painful and difficult it can be to walk away from a BPDer spouse. It feels like you are abandoning a sick young child who, despite her periodic tantrums, dearly loves you. 

It feels that way because, as noted above, a BPDer typically has the emotional development of a four year old. This is why she often exhibits the purity of expressions, exuberance, and emotional intensity that otherwise are only seen in young children. Moreover, although a  BPDer is able to love very intensely, it is an immature form of love that falls far short of what is required to sustain a mature adult relationship.

On top of that pain of leaving her, you have the concern that your D is better off with you there in the home on a full-time basis. Of course, that is a decision that only you can make. My view is that your D may well be better off seeing a healthy home environment half the time rather than a toxic environment (with her dad being abused) most of the time.

If you did not have an opportunity to do so earlier, I would suggest you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_ to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells and raises questions, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Shameless.


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## ShameLessLover

aine said:


> Your wife sounds very unreasonable, to kick your mother out in the middle of the night, but frankly this does not make sense, what exactly did your mother say. There is more to the story than this. You paint your mother as an innocent angel, which isnt the entire truth is is. Something must have been said to precipitate your wife's reaction? I am not buying your story
> 
> Realised now that this is an old post and I predicted it correctly, your marriage is in shambles because you failed to step up and be a man who leads his own family, (wife and kid). You put your mother and family before your wife and now you are reaping what you sowed. If you had only put her first, showed her she was your queen, then I guarantee you everything would have fallen into place. When your wife needed you, you did not choose her, you chose your mama. What is it with Indian men, the majority of you cannot cut the apron strings?


Thanks Aine. My first post was 4 and half years ago. I wrote that first post - I was emotionally down and I had this first blow to my face (by my so-called life). 
Things have changed so much now (in some sense) that my first post seems immature and do not give a clear picture. So, I will start a new thread.

Just to answer a few questions (*though I feel you are likely mixing your story with mine. We have a tendency to look through others stories with our own experiences)*
1. I brought my mother in 2013 during her pregnancy. The deal was she will bring her family afterward (her parents are no more. She would bring her uncle/aunt). I needed someone because I work 10 h a day 5 hours a week. And she has high-risk pregnancy. I was very very tired. At least, I will get food if my family is here.
2. I have put her first for last 4 years. I have not gone back to my home country for 2.5 years. My DD has never visited my extended family or my hometown. (I brought my immediate family to see DD once. Living with her has a silent deal - ME or YOUR FAMILY -choose it!
3. My mother is not an angel. Nobody is. I know she can be difficult. But I can yell/request/convince her to do things or not to do things. I have asked her to say SORRY to my wife. (But can my wife has ever say SORRY - NEVER!)


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## ShameLessLover

Uptown said:


> Shameless, as we've been discussing for the past five years, the behaviors you describe are classic warning signs for BPD. As someone who lived with a BPDer for 15 years, I know how painful and difficult it can be to walk away from a BPDer spouse. It feels like you are abandoning a sick young child who, despite her periodic tantrums, dearly loves you.
> 
> It feels that way because, as noted above, a BPDer typically has the emotional development of a four year old. This is why she often exhibits the purity of expressions, exuberance, and emotional intensity that otherwise are only seen in young children. Moreover, although a BPDer is able to love very intensely, it is an immature form of love that falls far short of what is required to sustain a mature adult relationship.
> 
> On top of that pain of leaving her, you have the concern that your D is better off with you there in the home on a full-time basis. Of course, that is a decision that only you can make. My view is that your D may well be better off seeing a healthy home environment half the time rather than a toxic environment (with her dad being abused) most of the time.
> 
> If you did not have an opportunity to do so earlier, I would suggest you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_ to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells and raises questions, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Shameless.




Uptown, thanks for the message.

I agree with you and I think she probably has a BPD. My DD is the only reason I am still married. I think I am kinda live like this if some of my needs are met. Two main needs are

○ Being able to take my DD to meet my extended family
○ Being able to go to home country without a resistance

It does not look like I can get the first need met. Second I can get but it gets into a lot of chaos. It's never a pleasant trip.

Due to these, I again exploring my situation - what to do.
Now my DD being 5 makes it more complicated because it's almost like she is a young lady. If one of us is angry- she sense it and will keep trying to make peace between us.

*** 
About my mental state, I talked to my doctor. I wanted to be able to continue to drive if I am taking medication - most medicine may affect my ability to drive. At last he gave me propranolol - I took only once.

I am wondering - if there is any suggestion from other TAMers here (to calm the nerves)??


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## turnera

Meditation, tai chi, and yoga


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