# Compromise and Realism



## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

Compromise and realism

I just posted in another thread about compromise between a LD and HD spouse, it got me thinking more about what that means to both sides..

Compromise, an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.

What does a HD partner want out of their sex life?

Frequency
Variety
Affection – Intimacy
Intensity
Teasing - Flirting

What does a LD partner want out of their sex life?

Low frequency
Vanilla 
Sex isn’t one of the more important aspects of the relationship
Quick, get it done sex
Sex is in the bedroom, ‘isnt part of everyday life’

What is the compromise? I guess for some of the things there could be some but doesn’t the other ‘wants’ suffer? Higher frequency without desire or passion becomes pity sex, does this satisfy either partner? Does a long lovemaking session fulfill the HD if the LD isnt ‘in the moment?

From where I am sitting, I am thinking that there isn’t really a compromise between LD and HD that would satisfy both people. Unless TRUE change is possible, (and I haven’t seen that in my relationship) is the mismatched LD / HD doomed for a failed relationship?


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

There was another thread about HD/LD compromise. Over half the people had found a successful compromise. That's not scientific, but I'm confident that compromise is possible for many if not most couples. Sometimes the chasm is too far to cross.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

In political circles it is said that a good compromise is when no one is happy with the outcome. That said, in a relationship, love might be part of the equation and thus help to bridge the chasm still left after the compromise.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

HDsocal said:


> What is the compromise? I guess for some of the things there could be some but doesn’t the other ‘wants’ suffer? Higher frequency without desire or passion becomes pity sex, does this satisfy either partner? Does a long lovemaking session fulfill the HD if the LD isnt ‘in the moment?


You are being too binary here and missing a crucial part of any compromise. Keep in mind that LD + regular sex does not necessary equal pity, disinterested sex.

Someone can be LD for sex and yet high drive for pleasing their partner. A LD person can say:

* "I really like being close to him/her and making their day in that special way", or at least
* "He/she depends on me for this and I value/benefit from this relationship, so I am going to meet that need cheerfully".

You may not have control over your libido. However, you can control your attitude. Really, these LD / HD couples should be able to achieve a sexual lifestyle that is satisfying if not optimal to the HD spouse without being a burden on the LD spouse.

But, if you are like these guys that insist their wives actually be horny on a regular basis, or a LD person that will not put the effort into a strong sex life because it's not important, then yeah there is no compromise to be had.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Compromise is possible if the two sides' ideas about sex are within the same order of magnitude. You can compromise 2x vs 4x a week but you can't compromise 1x month vs 3x a week. Much as it is bad taste to do so it's a numbers game.

That's from a quantitive point of view. From a qualitative point of view it's not much different, if one side wants p0rn star action and the other 10 minute quickies...

If you feel you have to compromise it may be a very loooong marriage. It's like an inter cultural marriage couple argue whether to live in Bangalore or Brussels. Umm, the midpoint is probably Damascus, scratch that 

In a compromise both sides have to also agree not to "game" the system, and as we know that's one of the easiest things to game...


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

Shoto1984 said:


> In political circles it is said that a good compromise is when no one is happy with the outcome. That said, in a relationship, love might be part of the equation and thus help to bridge the chasm still left after the compromise.


love could be part of the equation, maybe. 

But for many of us, is love enough to bridge the gap? I don't think so or we wouldn't be here. Love is what has kept us in the relation this far, but it may not be enough to keep us here forever.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think there has to be some sort of compromise. The LD has to increase frequency, be open to trying new things and do it all with enthusiasm. The HD has to temper expectations somewhat regarding frequency and adventurousness.

The problem that seems to come up over and over again is that the LD partner is simply unwilling to compromise. There is a widespread belief (promoted by feminism) that one's body is sacred and any compromise in this arena entails reducing oneself to a sex object. While this is debateable on an individual level, it makes zero sense in a committed monogomous relationship.

If you are unwilling to recognize that you may need to have sex when you don't exactly feel like it, or sometimes do things in the course of the act that aren't exactly your cup of tea (within reason), or if you feel that you must sulk and point out how overburdened you are every time you make a halfhearted attempt to meet your partner's needs, then you have a selfish mindset that is ill-suited to committed, monogomous relationships.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Probably in an enormous effort to restore cognitive consonance, I have plenty of sympathy for the LD spouse.

It's hard to enthusiastically be something that you're not, several times a week, even when you have your spouse's best interests at heart, or lacking that, your own enlightened self interests. The HD folks say "Hey, it's just sex! What could be easier?" Well, if it was that easy, none of us would be in this position now, would we? 

So no, I don't think there's a compromise that makes everyone happy. There are only compromises that make both parties less unhappy enough to continue the relationship.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I would be willing to compromise all over the place (as the higher drive - although I imagine I'm just an average drive.) I could be happy having sex once a month - if the quality was what I needed. The amount of time dedicated, unpredictable, emotional intimacy, something that felt shared. 

However that's the stuff you can't negotiate.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> I would be willing to compromise all over the place (as the higher drive - although I imagine I'm just an average drive.) *I could be happy having sex once a month - if the quality was what I needed. The amount of time dedicated, unpredictable, emotional intimacy, something that felt shared. *
> 
> However that's the stuff you can't negotiate.


:iagree:
I'm not THAT high drive. Two or three times a week would probably be amazing for me. I'd be OK with 2 or 3 times a month even.......provided my spouse actually is able to make me feel loved. So far, I don't feel like I make her priority list in the least. 

I think ultimately that's where the feelings come from of "I just wish they'd want me". It's not a matter of are they horny or are they not--it's a matter of do you feel like you matter to your spouse. It simply comes to a head in your mind via the simplest way you experience that love. If a LD spouse can find another way to supplement that love in another manner, I think compromise is completely workable. 

Additionally, you have to consider the weight attributed to a person's love languages. You might be able to supplement words of affirmation in place of sexual desire, for example--but it might take a LOT more words of affirmation to equal the value your spouse places on being desired.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

True. DH maintains that he wants me. But when he says that he is talking about a feeling he has inside. It's not the same thing I'm talking about when I'm talking about him wanting me. I'd like to see some lust, have him say anything about it, even just saying he wants me. 9 times out of 10 it's - sorry, I was thinking sex sounded nice but then I got really comfortable in bed and sleep sounded nicer.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> True. DH maintains that he wants me. But when he says that he is talking about a feeling he has inside. It's not the same thing I'm talking about when I'm talking about him wanting me. I'd like to see some lust, have him say anything about it, even just saying he wants me. 9 times out of 10 it's - sorry, I was thinking sex sounded nice but then I got really comfortable in bed and sleep sounded nicer.


Word. I'd settle for an initiation once in a while.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It's so sad...but the reality is that a sexual mismatch is usually equal to a loveless marriage.

If it isn't a mismatch, two LD people can be very happy and loving in a sexless or nearly sexless marriage.

But if one of you isn't LD or you are otherwise mismatched...it just doesn't seem to ever get better. I wish I knew of more success stories.

The only success stories I've ever heard were where the LD spouse was only situationally LD and "found their groove" again somehow, with their spouse.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

I feel my TALK coming sooner than later FW. Already started a post in Considering. Some days I question myself hard about whether it's the right thing to do. Then other days I read posts like Scarlett's and remember why it is the right thing to do. Toughest decision to have to make, ever.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I have mentioned on another similar thread that you cannot get a leopard to change its spots.

When we stand infront of the altar (or whatever) and say 'I do', I genuinely think we mean it, at that time. Why would we marry someone who, then, was LD when we were HD? We'd know then it wasnt going to work.

What happens is that children come along, we grow older and we become 'comfortable'. Very often the wife puts sex on the back burner as it is simply just not as important to her. Looking after the children, the house, having a career etc is far more important to her than keeping her sex life healthy. 

On the other hand, sex (making love) to his wife is VERY important to a man. Its how we bond, its how we show our wife we love her...its how we NEED to show her we love her. If she puts zero importance on it we feel rejected, unloved etc and we start to feel resentful...it is often a vicious circle.

Before I get shot down, I know that there are wives here (eg. Miss Scarlett) who want a sexlife with their husbands but its teh husbands who arent interested. However, I am sure that in probably 80% of sexless marriages it is the wife who isn't interested.

If a LD spouse knows and accepts he/she is LD and her/his husband/wife is HD then trying to make the effort goes a long way.
For example, my wife has NEVER given me oral or gone anywhere near me down there with her mouth...if she said 'I don't like it, but I know how much it means to you so I will do it but only if you wear a condom'.....I would be over the moon!

I would feel wow! Not just because of the BJ, but more importantly that she loves me therefore is prepared to do something she really isn't happy doing. It would work wonders on our marriage.

So in a nutshell...whilst a LD will always (at heart) be LD, she or he can atleast try to make an effort. A little effort goes a long way.
No effort....and, well...resentment builds and has consequences;
affairs, divorces etc.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't think people really believe that they have to have sex with their partner for the rest of their life when they get married/together. Or don't really think about it. Personally, I don't think it's my right to demand sex from my wife. It's her body... if she doesn't want to have sex with me, well, fine... this has consequences, obviously. You are not really married any more. Some spouses seem to forget this when they withhold, but they still want to carry on as they are married. Circumstances change, but to expect your spouse to revisit the concept of marriage is rather naive. There is no point in compromising. We tried... it just doesn't work.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Personal - I think you and your wife are are very much in the minority.
Lucky you.....am envious!

InAbsentia - Of course being married doesn't give you the 'right' to demand sex from your wife. However, once you are married I think it is quite normal to 'expect' sex from each other. Its a fact of life and part of the unspoken marriage 'deal'.

You are quite right...'witholding' sex in marriage does have consequences....ones that you should be prepared to suffer.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

askari said:


> InAbsentia - Of course being married doesn't give you the 'right' to demand sex from your wife. However, once you are married I think it is quite normal to 'expect' sex from each other. Its a fact of life and part of the unspoken marriage 'deal'.
> 
> You are quite right...'witholding' sex in marriage does have consequences....ones that you should be prepared to suffer.


well, of course... but for some people the "unspoken" deal is not a deal because they see it in a different way. The problem is that people assign very different degrees of importance to sex in marriage. You only find out when it's too late. At the beginning, sex is always on top of the agenda. After a few years, the reality hits. That you've married a person who has fundamentally a different idea about sex and its role in the marriage. At the point, you might have children, and the toy is broken forever.

As far as compromising is concerned, we tried. It was a disaster. I've seen many people on this board playing some kind of mental game with their wife/husband in order to "coerce" them into having sex with them. I find that disgusting. You either want to have sex with me or you don't. Playing little blackmail games is abusive, on both sides. HD and LD will never be reconciled. The first step is to recognise it, accept it and either stay or leave, without moaning too much. There is no point. It is the way it is. Drowning in resentment is futile and a big waste of energy.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> well, of course... but for some people the "unspoken" deal is not a deal because they see it in a different way. The problem is that people assign very different degrees of importance to sex in marriage. You only find out when it's too late. At the beginning, sex is always on top of the agenda. After a few years, the reality hits. That you've married a person who has fundamentally a different idea about sex and its role in the marriage. At the point, you might have children, and the toy is broken forever.
> 
> As far as compromising is concerned, we tried. It was a disaster. I've seen many people on this board playing some kind of mental game with their wife/husband in order to "coerce" them into having sex with them. I find that disgusting. You either want to have sex with me or you don't. Playing little blackmail games is abusive, on both sides. HD and LD will never be reconciled. The first step is to recognise it, accept it and either stay or leave, without moaning too much. There is no point. It is the way it is. Drowning in resentment is futile and a big waste of energy.


I am one of those too - ie in a sexless marriage. When we married 20 years ago she was say HD- and I was HD+. Over the years she has become LD----- and I have remained HD+. 
She has lost interest in sex and isn't concerned (or interested) that I still want, need, even crave it. 'Why should I do something I am not interested in?'...

We have two children aged 12 and 15yrs....I stay because they mean the world to me and I am, at the moment, prepared to forego sex with my wife for them. However, when they reach 18 and go off to university etc then I will also be on my bike.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

askari said:


> I am one of those too - ie in a sexless marriage. When we married 20 years ago she was say HD- and I was HD+. Over the years she has become LD----- and I have remained HD+.
> She has lost interest in sex and isn't concerned (or interested) that I still want, need, even crave it. 'Why should I do something I am not interested in?'...
> 
> We have two children aged 12 and 15yrs....I stay because they mean the world to me and I am, at the moment, prepared to forego sex with my wife for them. However, when they reach 18 and go off to university etc then I will also be on my bike.


Same here, unfortunately... married 24 years, very good sex at the beginning... then it just dwindled, after the kids... my wife has (mental) health reason for it... but it could be fixed. She just doesn't want to go through with it. I guess her status quo is more important than saving our marriage. I understand that, actually, although it signals to me that I'm not very important in her life (any more). Pretty sad, but this is life... I've booked my bike too!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personal said:


> That's interesting, I just asked my wife what she thought when we got married. She said, she thought we would have sex together for the rest of our life. She simply thought, that's what married people do. I thought the same as her, I presumed we were going to have a lifetime of sex together.


I didn't think about that. We were in love and got married and we weren't even that young... (27). I think to expect your spouse/partner to have sex with you for the rest of your life is rather naive. I'm a rather practical person. I knew it could happen. Obviously, I didn't want that, and I fought it very hard, but it comes a time when you have to accept reality. This is one of the many realities. The institution of marriage fills people with all sort of unrealistic expectations. I never thought I had a right to my wife's body. Or I had any right to have sex with her. To me, it's something which is great if you get it right in a marriage, but I see many men on this board that feel entitled to it. Just because you are married. I don't want my wife to have sex with me just because we are married. Some people are well matched and suited (we were) and this carries on throughout the married life. Some people start well (we did) and then things evolve, for whatever reason. I'm not sure, but if things go wrong, you fight it, try and understand and then declare defeat if the issue is not resolvable. I must admit I am resentful towards my wife, but not because she is a cow or a b!tch, but because she didn't have the intellectual honesty and the strength to put our marriage first. I don't want compromise. I'm a realist enough to understand that compromise is what it is, a compromise, which, in my eyes, equates to unhappiness, as someone said...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I didn't think about that. We were in love and got married and we weren't even that young... (27). I think to expect your spouse/partner to have sex with you for the rest of your life is rather naive. I'm a rather practical person. I knew it could happen. Obviously, I didn't want that, and I fought it very hard, but it comes a time when you have to accept reality. This is one of the many realities. The institution of marriage fills people with all sort of unrealistic expectations. I never thought I had a right to my wife's body. Or I had any right to have sex with her. To me, it's something which is great if you get it right in a marriage, but I see many men on this board that feel entitled to it. Just because you are married. I don't want my wife to have sex with me just because we are married. Some people are well matched and suited (we were) and this carries on throughout the married life. Some people start well (we did) and then things evolve, for whatever reason. I'm not sure, but if things go wrong, you fight it, try and understand and then declare defeat if the issue is not resolvable. I must admit I am resentful towards my wife, but not because she is a cow or a b!tch, but because she didn't have the intellectual honesty and the strength to put our marriage first. I don't want compromise. I'm a realist enough to understand that compromise is what it is, a compromise, which, in my eyes, equates to unhappiness, as someone said...


If your wife expects you to be faithful to her, then I think you have a right to her body. This does not mean that you coerce her. It means that she should understand that this is what marriage means and willingly participate (just like you willingly forsake other women). My guess is that if you polled people across the world, the overwhelming response to this issue would be the same. It is only in very recent history in a few western countries that this idea has taken hold that sex is optional for wives but that they are still owed all of the benefits of marriage regardless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> If your wife expects you to be faithful to her, then I think you have a right to her body. This does not mean that you coerce her. It means that she should understand that this is what marriage means and willingly participate (just like you willingly forsake other women). My guess is that if you polled people across the world, the overwhelming response to this issue would be the same. It is only in very recent history in a few western countries that this idea has taken hold that sex is optional for wives but that they are still owed all of the benefits of marriage regardless.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I didn't mean that... of course, if you get married you'd expect to have sex. Everybody does. But, still marriage doesn't give you a right to your partner's body. I wouldn't demand my wife's body in order to remain faithful. If sex dwindles, you can ask, debate and try and find a solution. If there is no solution, there is no marriage... and no benefits...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Personal said:


> That's interesting, I just asked my wife what she thought when we got married. She said, she thought we would have sex together for the rest of our life. She simply thought, that's what married people do. I thought the same as her, I presumed we were going to have a lifetime of sex together.


So did we. What we didn't know was that we had very different ideas of what "a lifetime of sex together" implied.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Cletus said:


> So did we. What we didn't know was that we had very different ideas of what "a lifetime of sex together" implied.


well, this is what I mean too...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

askari said:


> . 'Why should I do something I am not interested in?'


Well, that's the problem. It seems like the only answer that would work would be "to stay married to me". If that doesn't matter to her, then let her know that you're gone when the kids are 18. Then be gone. In the meantime, focus on the kids and yourself.

My definition of a good marriage is when each partner is genuinely interested in their partner's happiness. If an marriage meets this criteria and there is an LD / HD problem, then it can be resolved. 

If it's a good marriage, then talk can help. I'd tried to explain to my wife what I wanted for 20 years. I was CERTAIN she knew what I wanted. I was troubled that she could know this and still not provide it. It was the only problem in an otherwise perfect marriage. A couple of years ago, things finally reached critical mass and she understood. She swears that she didn't really understand how important it was to me until then (how, I don't know). The light bulb went off, I get it all the time, she offers the act regularly on her own. She claims that it's a big turn-on for her and she loves doing it. Who knew?

If it's a good marriage, don't beat around the bush, don't be subtle, be vulnerable, make sure your partner knows what you need.

If it's not a good marriage and you're not willing to live that way, give the ultimatum. Be prepared to pull the plug. There's a chance (no doubt small) that will be a wake up call.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Well, that's the problem. It seems like the only answer that would work would be "to stay married to me". If that doesn't matter to her, then let her know that you're gone when the kids are 18. Then be gone. In the meantime, focus on the kids and yourself.
> 
> My definition of a good marriage is when each partner is genuinely interested in their partner's happiness. If an marriage meets this criteria and there is an LD / HD problem, then it can be resolved.
> 
> ...


Buddy--did you ever ask her what the tipping point was for her understanding? Was it just a matter of an ultimatum that forced her to think about it?


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Thanks Buddy, that was a good post. I'm were you were a couple years ago; critical mass. We've had all the other talks before, it's down to putting the marriage on the line. I've held out a slim hope she'll have the light bulb moment yours did, but afraid mine just doesn't have any libido to work with so I'm expecting the talk to head towards divorce. 

I'm actually having a harder time mentally preparing for the light bulb scenario. I don't want to get stuck in any further false hopes for change. Deciding what scenarios will I accept to stay and work on it. I don't want to get lost in the fog of love for her when we start this discussion.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

4x4 said:


> Thanks Buddy, that was a good post. I'm were you were a couple years ago; critical mass. We've had all the other talks before, it's down to putting the marriage on the line. I've held out a slim hope she'll have the light bulb moment yours did, but afraid mine just doesn't have any libido to work with so I'm expecting the talk to head towards divorce.
> 
> I'm actually having a harder time mentally preparing for the light bulb scenario. I don't want to get stuck in any further false hopes for change. Deciding what scenarios will I accept to stay and work on it. I don't want to get lost in the fog of love for her when we start this discussion.


In my experience, it takes a couple of years from the "talk". Mine hasn't got any libido at all either, so it was an easy decision. The harder part is coming to terms with it. But you will, eventually...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Buddy--did you ever ask her what the tipping point was for her understanding? Was it just a matter of an ultimatum that forced her to think about it?


My situation wasn't nearly as dire as most here. The problem wasn't nearly big enough to end the marriage over. My problem mostly was "how can this person who seems to genuinely care about my happiness know that this is something I want so much and still not provide?". I knew she had no moral, emotional or physical issues with providing it. It was baffling. I knew that if she had said "I love it when you do this", I'd make a point of doing it all the time.

She apparently just discounted my previous statements as "some guy sex thing" that wasn't that important or that I wasn't that serious about. It took being VERY direct and visibly upset for a period of weeks before she finally realized how much it meant to me.

The thing I said to her that had the most effect was "From a husband's perspective, the best way for a wife to demonstrate her love for her husband is through sex". She really seemed to have not understood that previously. She thought the best way to demonstrate love to a husband was the same way a husband demonstrates love to his wife (whatever that is!).

4x4, your wife can still willingly have sex with you even tough she is LD if she loves you and values the marriage. Just like you can watch the Bachelorette with her even if you don't really care for the show. If fact you watching the Bachelorette might take longer and be the bigger sacrifice


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Fozzy, 4x4,

Do your wives say they love you? Do they (other than sex) act as if they do? Do they value the marriage?

If they don't, then you're toast.

If they do, then there is some hope.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> *The thing I said to her that had the most effect was "From a husband's perspective, the best way for a wife to demonstrate her love for her husband is through sex".* She really seemed to have not understood that previously. She thought the best way to demonstrate love to a husband was the same way a husband demonstrates love to his wife (whatever that is!).
> 
> So, from a man's point of view, what could I say to my husband to make him realize just how serious our situation is? We women are the ones who are not supposed to want as much sex and we are usually the ones who are seen as withholding both sex and intimacy. I've told my husband that if the situation continues I will want an open marriage and that doesn't seem to have done the trick. When we have the talks he claims to understand and sympathise with me - we then have sex within the next 48 hours or so and then it's back to every 6 weeks or so again.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Buddy, in my case I know she loves me to her core. She shows it in every way but sexually. Sex is just a non-thing to her. She doesn't O, doesn't MB, doesn't fantasize about it. She has basically 0 drive. She values the marriage, but I'm pretty sure when the TALK comes she'll take the stance that she can help the way she is and understand the need to split. 

The only other times divorce has even been brought up between us was in a discussions about having children. We decided early on not to have them. She had stated plainly over the years that if I ever wanted children she would lovingly separate and even try to help me find someone else that did want children. She's pretty practical like that.

My mental magic now is thinking through the light bulb scenario. If she finally says "I just didn't realize it was THAT important and I really want to work on it." Knowing her natural state of sexuality, I don't want to get stuck in any more false hopes of being able to work on it, but I also feel I need to leave that door open somehow. The resentments are clouding my thoughts here.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

doobie said:


> So, from a man's point of view, what could I say to my husband to make him realize just how serious our situation is?


Personalize it. "For ME, the best way for you to show me that you love me is through sex".


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

People have a set frequency in mind and very little can be said to change their mind set. It would be a rare person that gets swayed by words. It works when we are in high school but not beyond.

The majority of people are fully aware of sexuality in general and what it means to their partners. It's not like we live in Saudi Arabia or some such... If they're not doing anything rest assured they have a good idea of the impact and either they don't care or do it on purpose...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

4x4, 

Does she do anything for you that you enjoy and she doesn't particularly care for? Watch a TV show or Movie? Go with you to a restaurant that you love but she doesn't care much for? Does she think sex is disgusting? Or does she just not find it worth doing?


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

I can't think of anything else that I really need from her that she's giving of herself for to me. We're pretty well aligned in most other ways and enjoy many of the same things. We live in the country so it's a very quiet life together all around.

Sex isn't itself disgusting to her. She doesn't care for oral sex, giving or receiving. Part of that is a bit of ick factor to her, though mostly I attribute it to her general indifference to sex. She had issues with discomfort that sounded like vaginismus or similar, but never sought treatment. She's never been to any doctor since I've known her. None. Doesn't trust them basically. She's in otherwise great health.

There are some sort of body issues with her too. She's always been in average to awesome shape and doesn't mind showing her clothed figure at all or strutting naked in front of me. However, she's always been shy about me being close to her vajayjay.

One common thread I see with my wife and some of the other LD posters here is my perception that she views sex like "I don't care about it so why should I have to ____________." Fill in the blank with lots of things you've seen posted here; "do it", "like it", "do it when I don't want too", "want it", etc. She doesn't view sex as a necessity in life so it has no priority. She also lacks the empathy genes to put 2+2 together and realize when I tell her it is a priority to me, that it should be more of a priority for her. THE TALK, may spark her in this area, but I'm not sure that will be enough in itself.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

4x4,

Well, if she loves you, cares about your happiness and is a reasonably good person, she should be able to understand the concept of doing something for you that makes you happy even if it's not something that she particularly enjoys.

My wife loves me, cares about my happiness and is a good person. However, she is self-centered. She recognizes this and (much to her credit) tries to take that into consideration. She would intellectually be more than willing to do something just for me. However, her instinct is to focus on herself (we have an inside joke that we share the same interests; I'm interested in her happiness and she is also interested in her happiness). 

I am very attuned to her wants and naturally pick up on them. I thought she'd do the same, but she's not the same person that I am. If I want to make my needs known, I have to be very specific and direct. I didn't like doing that. I thought she should figure this out on her own if she loved me. 

So, surprise! surprise!, I often didn't get what I needed.

Now, the deal is: I hit her with a 2x4 and she pays attention

It's not the way I'd hoped it would be. But it works.

It's time for the TALK.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Your situation sounds similar to mine Buddy. I'm empathic and pick up on her wants naturally. She isn't at all. Sometimes I've wondered if she just can't read non verbal clues at all or if she just ignores them. I don't mean just regarding sex, I mean just generally in life.

Like your wife she may get the light bulb moment. She may be able to intellectualize it enough to finally do something about it. That or otherwise produce some new variable I don't know about (like a sexual assault) are the final hopes I'm holding out for. 

I've been working on this issue for a year and half now though and not seen much real promise. Every time she increased frequency for some time there was always a reversion to the mean again. Her mean being once a month or less.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

4x4 said:


> Buddy, in my case I know she loves me to her core. She shows it in every way but sexually. Sex is just a non-thing to her. *She doesn't O,* doesn't MB, doesn't fantasize about it. She has basically 0 drive. She values the marriage, but I'm pretty sure when the TALK comes she'll take the stance that she can help the way she is and understand the need to split.
> 
> The only other times divorce has even been brought up between us was in a discussions about having children. We decided early on not to have them. She had stated plainly over the years that if I ever wanted children she would lovingly separate and even try to help me find someone else that did want children. She's pretty practical like that.
> 
> My mental magic now is thinking through the light bulb scenario. If she finally says "I just didn't realize it was THAT important and I really want to work on it." Knowing her natural state of sexuality, I don't want to get stuck in any more false hopes of being able to work on it, but I also feel I need to leave that door open somehow. The resentments are clouding my thoughts here.


I'm sorry, 4x4. I don't believe that a woman who doesn't have orgasms is ever going to be able to want sex in the way you need her to. Imagine if you didn't O. Would you want to have sex frequently and anytime someone else wanted you to have sex?

I'm not saying you have to stay with her and accept it. I'm saying please don't hold out much hope that the TALK will do much. She doesn't have orgasms, so she's really never going to want to have frequent sex. She might try, in order to stay married and to make you happier, but the frequency will dwindle again because it's just not sustainable for her.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Lack of empathy is just as important as lack of sex drive in ruining a marriage.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Believe me Nora, I know I've been swimming up a powerful stream but that's what love does to us.

It's part of my hopelessness in my situation. Even if I can get frequency up there is still so much missing. Giving pleasure is half of the fun of sex and she'll doesn't "need pleasing" like that. That part would always be missing.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

A woman with no sex drive who has no desire to orgasm isn't going to,, regardless of circumstances I wouldn't think.

I'm a woman who has had only a handful of orgasms in 19 years of marriage. I've always wanted more sex, better sex, more passionate sex than my DH. I've always had my orgasms alone and over the course.of the past 10 years especially have sometimes gotten myself off every day of the month.

However, hearing people talk about getting off with their partners, that's all like foreign language to me. I can't even conceive of how this happens and I feel sick inside to hear people talk about it because I can't have it. 

I've only recently realized why I can't get off is because DH is neutral on it happening. Plus the sex is very routine and vanilla, same 15 minutes till infinity. I can't orgasm within the parameters I'm presented with.

It's only just now, within the past month, that I've stopped wanting to have sex at all with him. I no longer want to deal with it. I feel done.

Sorry, that was more than I needed to say. It make me sad to see myself being so bitter.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MissScarlett said:


> A woman with no sex drive who has no desire to orgasm isn't going to,, regardless of circumstances I wouldn't think.(


I'm not so sure about that. I would have sex as often as my wife wanted, regardless of whether or not I'd orgasm. I would (and have) performed oral on her without getting anything in return. She does the same for me as often as I'd like. Just because we love each other and care about the other's happiness.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I think you are saying the same as me buddy.

I was saying this woman (4x4 dw) wasn't likely to orgasm when she doesn't have any desire to orgasm. (But really what would I know about that.) 

Then I pointed out that I've had less than 10 orgasms with my DH in 19 years and have still always been the HD partner in my marriage. 

My point being no orgasms doesn't (in all cases) equal no sex drive.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

It's not that she doesn't want to O, I'm 99% certain she has never O'd partnered OR alone. I'm not 100% certain because she avoids talking straight about it, but she could only explain that it felt okay sometimes, but never any type build/release sensations like most would think of an O.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

4x4 said:


> It's not that she doesn't want to O, I'm 99% certain she has never O'd partnered OR alone. I'm not 100% certain because she avoids talking straight about it, but she could only explain that it felt okay sometimes, but never any type build/release sensations like most would think of an O.


My wife is the same. It's a fine line we walk I think. On the one hand, you WANT your wife to be able to experience that pleasure. On the other hand, you hear so much that pressuring her about it is the surest way to guarantee it won't happen. But when she's basically resigned to the feeling that it just won't happen for her and that will never change, do you push the matter? When she basically won't even try herself?


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Trying to give her O's went out the door forever ago. I knew that wasn't happening. The effort has always to just get through 5-10 mins of PIV without her being in some sort of discomfort. She doesn't want oral or any kind of manual stimulation either.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

If I read my own situation on here I would probably be recommending she see a doctor for her physical issues, as well as a therapist to get over her hangups. She won't go, full stop.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

While my circumstances are different than others here, we end up with the same problem. Lack of sexual desire from our partners leaving us feeling undesirable and unwanted. It's crazy how alone you can feel even if you're with your spouse 24/7.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

4x4 said:


> Trying to give her O's went out the door forever ago. I knew that wasn't happening. *The effort has always to just get through 5-10 mins of PIV without her being in some sort of discomfort. * She doesn't want oral or any kind of manual stimulation either.


The discomfort is because her vagina is not aroused. An aroused vagina lengthens, the uterus and cervix move upward to accommodate a penis, and the muscles relax. And of course, there's lubrication, which is also really important. She's not turned on, so it is painful. There's just no way around that.

But she's not going to get aroused if she doesn't want to be touched.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

4x4 said:


> It's not that she doesn't want to O, I'm 99% certain she has never O'd partnered OR alone. *I'm not 100% certain* because she avoids talking straight about it, but she could only explain that it felt okay sometimes, but never any type build/release sensations like most would think of an O.


Women fear letting go of that O if their mantra is to be in control at all times. The O causes one to lose total control for a few seconds and there is *no **way *a woman who loves control will allow herself to be seen out of control. 

Most healthy women *have *experienced orgasms alone. Many are just too ashamed to say so for whatever reasons. Your not being 100% sure whether or not your wife has ever experienced an orgasm is normal. Could be a roadblock of some sort with your mate. A mental or physical one? If sex feels okay to her now when you do engage sexually, I would say there is hope for sex to move from being just okay to better!


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

4x4 said:


> Trying to give her O's went out the door forever ago. I knew that wasn't happening. The effort has always to just get through 5-10 mins of PIV without her being in some sort of discomfort. She doesn't want oral or any kind of manual stimulation either.


Ummm.. Our joy-bell is on the top, so why not put your joy-bell to greater use by concentrating on hers? Instead of PIV'ing and causing discomfort, create the same movement right on her clitoris. There will be no pain, but great gain if you dare try.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

No oral? No manual stimulation either? Not wanting manual stimulation is very rare. Oral sex is not for everyone, so I am a bit more understanding about that one. Then what is it do you two do?? I am wanting to believe your wife loves her breasts being stimulated. I don't know of many or really any woman who would not want her breasts cared for during sex?


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

I agree with you Nora. Her general disinterest of sex could certainly manifest or be seen physically in the lack of arousal. Is it the chicken or the egg?

Hart, I've brought up the thought about control being an issue in a post or two. I haven't explored that much further though. As close as we've been with each other all these years, I've never felt like she lets me (or anyone) all the way in. Then again I've had great sex with girls I didn't know deeply either, so there is that.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

hartvalve said:


> No oral? No manual stimulation either? Not wanting manual stimulation is very rare. Oral sex is not for everyone, so I am a bit more understanding about that one. Then what is it do you two do?? I am wanting to believe your wife loves her breasts being stimulated. I don't know of many or really any woman who would not want her breasts cared for during sex?


Her nipples are no go areas.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

I apologize if I crossed too personal of a line 4x4.

I am pretty much asexual, but do appreciate seeing couples really enjoy the acts of sex if they are going to engage in the act itself. 

Please accept my apology if one is needed.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Pffft, bring it on Hart. I'm not squeamish.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

4x4 said:


> Her nipples are no go areas.


Really? Are you sure or you dare try? That is very very odd for nipples to be off limits. Our nipples are extremely sensitive to touch or tongue. How do you two start making love? 

Is there is ANY WAY possible, 4x4, for you to get to those nipples and gently rub between her legs at the same time? Your wife will love you for that. Better yet, just concentrate on her breasts!! Woman go wild when their breasts are being satisfied. You may get the oral of your life!!!


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

The only stimulation she really likes, but not all time, is spanking. She's not interested in anal whatsoever, just being spanked. So I love to oblige her with that whenever she's showing interest in it. It's great fun! :smthumbup:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Omg noooooo. Women are not all the same and some do not enjoy breast play!


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

hartvalve said:


> Really? Are you sure or you dare try? That is very very odd for nipples to be off limits. Our nipples are extremely sensitive to touch or tongue. How do you two start making love?
> 
> Is there is ANY WAY possible, 4x4, for you to get to those nipples and gently rub between her legs at the same time? Your wife will love you for that. Better yet, just concentrate on her breasts!! Woman go wild when their breasts are being satisfied. You may get the oral of your life!!!


Nope, I'll get a sour face and swatted away if I linger there more than a half second.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

4x4 said:


> Pffft, bring it on Hart. I'm not squeamish.


Okay. You asked for it. Just kidding. 

I am literally scratching my head in wonder. Your wife's nipples are off limit because she *knows *they are where it all begins with her. Why else would they be off limit? If they are not the prettiest looking nipples, so what? Turn the darn lights down. If the nipples have no sensation then I say let her man enjoy them if he wants! But I am not buying that at all. When you say off limits do you mean she keeps her bra on? I am sure that is not the case, right?


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Omg noooooo. Women are not all the same and some do not enjoy breast play!


You are right. We are not.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

I've been warned to stay away and got the sour face and swatting for going there too long. If I touch them more than a graze while caressing her I'll get a look. 

She doesn't mind strutting naked in front of me so I don't know that it's a body image issue with her breasts at least. She doesn't like my face being down between her legs though, so there is some body issue.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

4x4 said:


> The only stimulation she really likes, but not all time, is spanking. She's not interested in anal whatsoever, just being spanked. So I love to oblige her with that whenever she's showing interest in it. It's great fun! :smthumbup:


Now that is stimulating!


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

4x4 said:


> I've been warned to stay away and got the sour face and swatting for going there too long. If I touch them more than a graze while caressing her I'll get a look.


Has she ever complained about her nipples being sore? What reasons does she give for not wanting her breasts touched? Or the other area of her body stimulated? 

Anal is painful, so I understand why the reluctance for her not wanting to have that done. 

Let me tell you, if it is your wife's case.. Just a soft grazing of the nipple can send a rippling effect through many many women bodies. The same with our clitoris.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Early on she just told me straight up that she didn't like her nipples touched, she may have mentioned it felt weird to her or something but that was so many years ago I forget. She's just let me know ever since if I touch them too much by pushing me away or covering them. She doesn't show any excitement in a graze either.

She's never been very forthcoming or straight talking about sex. She doesn't even like calling it sex. #8 on the 10 signs your partner is LD list. 

I've never had a partner that wanted anal, nor have I had any of my own desire for it, so her not wanting is fine for me too. If I had a partner that wanted it though, I'd go for it.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

4X4 strikes me as a pretty bright guy. I'm sure the clitoris was not his last stop in his journey to find out what his wife likes, if anything.

Hart, you say you're asexual so I'll take you at your word. But if that's the case then you should know that some people just don't feel anything, sexually speaking. Whether physically or mentally, nothing really "floats their boat". In cases like that, I don't think it's a matter of touch this or tweak that. Sex just isn't something they respond to.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

If I was bright Fozzy, how did I get myself into this. :lol:


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Same way I did I suppose. Inexperience, naivety, and a tablespoon of cluelessness.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

hartvalve said:


> No oral? No manual stimulation either? Not wanting manual stimulation is very rare. Oral sex is not for everyone, so I am a bit more understanding about that one. Then what is it do you two do?? I am wanting to believe your wife loves her breasts being stimulated. I don't know of many or really any woman who would not want her breasts cared for during sex?


You never met my wife then - the perfect trifecta.

Don't touch it, don't kiss it, and those two things you see between my collarbone and waist (and getting closer to the waist all the time)? Those were for feeding the babies.

Yup, those kinds of women do exist. Yet she is still highly orgasmic.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

hartvalve said:


> Is there is ANY WAY possible, 4x4, for you to get to those nipples and gently rub between her legs at the same time? Your wife will love you for that. Better yet, just concentrate on her breasts!! Woman go wild when their breasts are being satisfied. You may get the oral of your life!!!


'Round here, that move is known as the Convicted Muslim Thief.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Sometimes I read my own posts and have a hard time remembering what I'm fighting to save. haha. Stupid love.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

LOL, that's only the "Yakuza" at my place. I only lose a finger.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Soooooooooooo Hart, as I turn the spotlight around, tell me about yourself. You describe yourself as asexual, but seem to have a pretty healthy sounding enjoyment of sexual touch. Do you have some other hangups about sex that keeps you away from it? Just no drive to seek it out? It's not important to you? Sorry if that's too personal, just curious.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

4x4.. I am just getting around to reading your post. I will respond in just a few. If not this evening, for certain tomorrow. 

I do not mind your question at all.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

Promised I would return. 

Speaking for myself. Asexual is not, *not *being aware of ones sexuality. Asexual is choosing to enjoy sexual intimacy with someone. Choosing to be sexually stimulated. My body *will *respond to sexual stimulation. Like the areas I mentioned in a prior post. The two areas (nipples and clitoris) are two of the most commonly sensitive areas on a woman's body, whether ignored or not. Of course, there are other areas of sensitivity on our bodies, but those two areas are the most common hot spots. More especially when stimulated one with the other. The nipple sends signals to the vagina and vice verse.

My first experiences with sex was just that. An experience that left me wondering if that was all there was to sex. An in and out, an up and down movement ending with an mmm mmmm good was not doing it for me. The mmm mmm good did not come from my end either. No amount of kissing and blowing in the ear was going to fix what needed fixing. If I was going to engage in the acts of sex I wanted to at least experience an orgasm and quit faking that I had one.

I knew how to bring myself to orgasm alone, but how was a penis going to do the same for me. I did the research and I learned how. 

I did not mean to sound like an expert when I made mention of my difficulty to understand why certain areas on your mate's body is off limits to you. If she is asexual, *4x4*, being so does not mean she has no sensation in those areas you mentioned. If there was ever a time you were allowed to enjoy those areas that are now off limits to you, there may be something mentally blocking her "*want to*" now. Though I was not experiencing orgasms through PIV, my nipples refused to lay their dormant. They were buzzed. Because they were during the unfulfilled acts of sex, I found myself running off to my own corner afterwards to enjoy an orgasm.

I believe my asexual state was induced long long ago and me engaging in sexual intimacy became conditional. Meaning. I must choose to allow my mate to stimulate my secret places. 

Sex is very important to me. Because I am married for one, and two- I do believe the asexual condition is unacceptable when married. I had to climb out of the asexual mode once again after many many involuntary induced years of total celibacy. I have not resumed total sexual activities because, it is not physically possible to do so with my husband. One more thing I may add-

One major block I personally experience during sex now, I don't wish to discuss, *is *a mental one. My O's are difficult to be reached with my husband, that is indeed a mental block. I don't refuse or avoid sexual advances from my husband, but nor do I seek them out. I am complicated.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Hart, that doesn't sound like asexuality to me. Asexuality is when one has no sexual feelings or desires. You DO have those feelings and desires, but they are responsive and not spontaneous.

Responsive desire is very common among women. They need to be turned on to enjoy sex, and don't desire sex unless they are turned on first.

But, you know yourself better than I do!


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

I fall into one of the categories defining asexuality in more detail. I can't even remember which one. 

My asexuality is conditional. My sexual attraction button is what is really broken and has been for a long ago. 

I am complicated.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Thanks for sharing hart. Getting a peek into similar if different situations and viewpoints is always a great way to learn. I do know my way around her anatomy, it's navigating her mind that is the challenge. 

She hasn't described her thoughts about her first sexual encounters, but I know she went into it with the mindset of just wanting to see what the big deal was all about. She waited till she was 22-23, we met shortly after.



> No amount of kissing and blowing in the ear was going to fix what needed fixing.


Needed fixing? That's an interesting use of words.

I think my wife has some inner fortress like you. It may not be the root of her lack of sexuality, but something is there. There are some other non-sexual feelings she can't let out either.

Mostly I think she just physically has a very very low libido. She spares no other show of love to me including non- and even semi-sexual touch, I love yous, carrying her half of the log in every other way.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> No amount of kissing and blowing in the ear was going to fix what needed fixing.





4x4 said:


> Needed fixing? That's an interesting use of words.


I agree. Doesn't sound like she's broken. It sounds more like her partner didn't know much about foreplay and how to touch a woman to turn her on, and she didn't know at that time, either.  Most women learn that through masturbation, experimentation, or a partner with _educated _experience. It took me a long time to learn to orgasm by myself, and then with a partner.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

Hello 4x4 

What I meant by saying "no amount of kissing or blowing in the ear" helped.. In other words- Foreplay was not solving the challenge of me *not *experiencing an orgasm with PIV movements. Grant it, during the very early years of me having sex, we hardly knew what we were doing. Wham bam thank you maam' was pretty much the extent of our earliest sexual encounters. After much time passed, my husband admitted he had no clue how to satisfy any woman for that matter during foreplay. What made matters worse- Every woman he'd ever been with lied to him and told him how wonderful he was in bed, so why bother fixing what was not broken? He really believed. 

It is true Nora, my then boyfriend soon husband had no clue.

4x4, it is good to know your mate (wife?) is generous to you with all the other love touches. You may just survive after all.  Just having a little fun with you on that comment. Low libido is very very real in many women. 

The question is always wondered, why? 

I hadn't read all the other comments posted until just now. Sorry about that. I read your comments and don't refute any of them. My conclusion, in unequivocally agreement, I say yes, no two are alike and we do experience our sexuality differently.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Hart, many, many women do not have orgasms from PIV. Many. It is not a dysfunction if their orgasms come from clitoral stimulation instead of PIV. Considering what we know now about the clitoris (it is not just a little button, that is only the tip of it and the rest forks under the skin around the vulva), it is likely that PIV can stimulate the clitoris enough from inside as well in some women with some partners.

I am thinking less and less that you are asexual.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

I dunno if I we will survive hart, that's why I end up in threads such as this. I'm searching my mind and heart to decide at what level can I compromise. At a minimum I need a partner that wants to have sex with me, cares about me enjoying it, and enjoys it herself. Whether her enjoyment comes from her libido or just her loving desire to make me happy is up to her.

Every post and different viewpoint gives me more to think about. Always good stuff here.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Hart, after reviewing one of your previous threads, I'm tending to agree with Nora. I don't think you're asexual as much as you're (understandably) dealing with a doozy of an attraction problem.

ETA--no offense intended because i'm a random internet guy and what the hell do I know about it.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

Yes, *N*orajane, *F*ozzy-- You could be right.

*4x4*.. All I can suggest to you is to not give up. Sounds like you and your wife are okay otherwise? Not trying to minimize the other, but if all the other is in pretty good alignment, maybe the best is yet to *c*ome- There is a pun in there somewhere.

You two are still relatively young, if I can remember your age.. 40's? There could be a wave of higher libido levels awaiting a woman in your wife's age range. If I have the ages incorrect and you're younger, even better. Lots of time ahead for rediscovery.

*Scratch* what I wrote about your ages 4x4. I did a quick read back and found you hadn't mentioned your age. To enjoy the sexual act is ageless anyway no matter the age if one is able to..


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Thanks for the kind words Hart. You are correct, we are early 40's. The odds of her getting more drive from hormones during in the upcoming years has been part of my mental math. I'm not resting my hope on those odds though, but I am considering it.

We finally broke the latest drought, but it didn't really give me any more hope. It broke the tension at least heh.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

4x4 said:


> Thanks for the kind words Hart. You are correct, we are early 40's. The odds of her getting more drive from hormones during in the upcoming years has been part of my mental math. I'm not resting my hope on those odds though, but I am considering it.
> 
> *We finally broke the latest drought,* but it didn't really give me any more hope. It broke the tension at least heh.


Yessssssssss! :smthumbup:

You never really know what can happen or what may work. Keep at it.


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