# The realization... H is not changing



## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I am here to outline my current situation. Not sure if am off loading or asking a question yet, will see how this post goes...

Me and H, both in our thirties. Three children. Me SAHM that does some work here and there, H works full time.

Have previously posted about difficulties. H had a near-EA a couple of years ago. Last year started rejecting me initiating, were not sexless but sex only on his terms. Me slightly more HD and used to frequently initiating, stopped initiating at all. I did a lot of work on me with very damaged esteem.

H has a hugely different view. He acknowledges his EA behavior as destructive and harmfull. He understands why I do not like initiating but has no recollection of him rejecting me like he did.

H has changed a lot since we married. His drive has dropped. He often prefers solo activity or HJs over sex. He rarely if ever shows affection... his most recent "thing" is he does not like me resting my feet on the sofa near him because it makes him hot. I mean literally if just the top half of my foot is gently brushing his leg. He sits way apart from me and will not touch me all evening. If I do initiate any touch, he makes an excuse or grimaces. If I hug him he freezes and does not reciprocate or move untill I let go.

He rarely arranges time together. He is interested if guy friends are involved or it is to do with a hobby or interest of his, but has no apparent interest otherwise in couple time. Also if he wants sex he will make an effort.

He pays me little husbandly attention. He claims he still likes me and finds me attractive yet cannot show or tell me this apart from sex. I explained I feel like part of the furniture, and suddenly turn in to a handy orifice when he is horny. 

His story is way different. He is very laid back. Says he has never been the affectionate type, but has recently admitted he probably was at the start of our relationship but that people who have been together a few years just "aren't like that any more."

Says he loves me but has work that takes up time and energy, then wants to spend time with the kids after work... then he is too tired. This from a guy who routinely stays up till AT LEAST 1am every night.

He thinks I am too serious and need to lighten up and stop thinking about stuff. I agree I have become more quiet and introspective... truth is it is hard living with someone who acts like they could care less whether I am around or not.

He does show love through acts of service and steadfastly ignores or refuses to do things I would like him to... UNLESS we have had a major argument, he feels bad about something, or wants sex.

Last week he was particularly tired. I mostly left him alone. He allways says we have a little time at the weekend as we can get a sitter for a while. The weekend came, we had had a few cross words, me asking for time/attention and him putting me off. So I was looking forward to some grown up time. He has reassured me he likes the time we have and looks forward to it as well all week.

We cosied up in bed and he fell asleep after. Usually we go out for food as well but he kept brushing me off. Decided to spend the rest of our time (another two hours) sleeping. 

I was upset. He sees his friends twice a week and NOTHING will get in the way of that. I feel slightly less prioritized.

He thought I was being stupid. I said I was sorry... that I was the only one who gave a damn.

I keep thinking if I can live the rest of my life knowing he hates touching me. Knowing he prioritizes everything else over me. It has taken a while but I see he will not change. I keep asking myself, is it enough to leave and split up a family for? I feel so lonely.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Here is a post from you from 3/9/12:



> *walkingwounded said:* He knows I would happily help him out but I will say it again.
> 
> He says his drive fluctuates and currently it is way down. I could happily accept that he is worried about pregnancy if he were taking steps to help with that. I have a coil which is very effective but he still worries yet does nothing about it. We talk and I have researched options but it looks like *I* will need to make an appointment to see a doctor for him (to talk about a vasectomy) as it has been months now.
> 
> ...


What has changed really about him? Nothing. You're right. He's not changing at all. 

Have you? Because that's what is in your control. YOU. What are YOU doing differently?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> H has changed a lot since we married. His drive has dropped. He often prefers solo activity or HJs over sex.* He rarely if ever shows affection... his most recent "thing" is he does not like me resting my feet on the sofa near him because it makes him hot. I mean literally if just the top half of my foot is gently brushing his leg. He sits way apart from me and will not touch me all evening. If I do initiate any touch, he makes an excuse or grimaces. If I hug him he freezes and does not reciprocate or move untill I let go.
> *
> 
> He pays me little husbandly attention. He claims he still likes me and finds me attractive yet cannot show or tell me this apart from sex. I explained I feel like part of the furniture, and suddenly turn in to a handy orifice when he is horny.


This bolded part is what caught my attention the most. If your husband grimaces at your touch, sorry but he doesnt love you. You are not a priority to him, your MARRIAGE is not a priority to him. So much of this is just wrong. How much longer can you live with this? I couldnt do this. I think the two of you need to get into MC asap, it needs to be presented to him as, he goes, or the M is over. Makes me sad.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I would be so angry at this point that his behavior has escalated to this level. The second he said something about me being near him making him hot or uncomfortable I would have cussed him out. WTF is wrong with you that you can't stand me near you???!!

That would be the last straw for me.


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## Jennifer871 (Oct 26, 2013)

i don't really have any advice but i wanted to say I'm sorry you're not getting what you need from your husband. 

Maybe you could focus on doing things for you more often? Make plans, go out with friends, make yourself busy. I know you're probably busy with the kids but i mean your free time. Instead of waiting for him to spend time with you or have sex do your own thing. Sometimes that's what a man needs to see to spark his interest again.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> This bolded part is what caught my attention the most. If your husband grimaces at your touch, sorry but he doesnt love you. You are not a priority to him, your MARRIAGE is not a priority to him.


That's not 100% true in my experience. My marriage was dreadful for many years, lack of communication being a major part of it and it was sexless for over 3 years with very intermittent sex for years before that.

It got to the stage where I totally fell out of love with my husband and I grimaced at his touch. I was ready to leave. Now, at that stage, I will agree that I did not feel love for my husband and I was not invested in our marriage.

BUT when I said I was leaving and we had a proper heart to heart discussion over several days I realised that he did still love me (though he had not shown it for years) and that I did in fact still love him and wanted it to work.

So in this case it is possible that love is still there, but if it is, it is buried under a mountain of problems and resentments. Maybe breaking up the family is worth the risk. One thing is true - I could not have stayed in the marriage if it stayed how it was. We only have one life and I had already given half of mine to a marriage that was not working.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Small child calling me so only a brief reply but...

It does hurt. I guess I got used to it. I just keep on, set my expectations low as otherwise I know I will be disappointed. I do not hide how I feel. I have been concentrating on me and building myself up. Cultivating new hobbies and interests. That has been great! Unfortunately he is not changing.

Now I have more to focus on and future plans to work towards for my career once the littley starts school, I feel better.

I have greatly examined my role in our dynamic. He says I think too much and we ne er have fun any more. He cannot see where I changed. Yes I am not full of joy... when I do that he thinks all is great. It is a no win.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

That last sentence sounds very close to "If you would only....act like I want...all would be well." let me guess: your thinking was appealing at first, yes?

I'm so sorry you're hurting.


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## hopelessromantic1 (Feb 16, 2012)

First off, I'm so sorry you're in this relationship. I know a lot of what you're feeling, unfortunately a lot of people have the same type of relationship at some point in their lives. I'm going to suggest (as recently suggested to my by someone here) you read "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie. It will make you take a big look at YOU and separate YOU from HIM and make you think about what type of life you want/deserve.
My H has a hard time with affection outside of the bedroom, he's not that way by nature, but not to the same extreme. It's hard when they're all lovey in the bed and you're like "wth can't you be THAT guy outside of the bed?" I feel your pain, and just know that you deserve better and if he cares he will try to change, but only HE can do the changing for himself.


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## alisa (Dec 28, 2012)

Hi
Really sorry to hear about your relationship WW. I normally dont reply to most threads because I feel I am not in the right state of mind to give any advice but I must say that most of your post reminded me of my husband. We can go on days without even touching each other! Whatever you decide to do, just keep in mind that your happiness is YOUR priority. I am finding "Codependent No More" very useful so give it a try if you can! I am also keeping myself busy in the evening after work to avoid worrying too much and I remember the time when I was not working and coping with his "cold" behaviour was extremely hard. So try to find yourself a hobby, maybe go back to gym or start some course in the evening to avoid thinking too much about him. I hope things get better for you soon! Take care


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## schrenkbl (Oct 30, 2013)

I'm sorry you're not getting what you need from your husband.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> That's not 100% true in my experience. My marriage was dreadful for many years, lack of communication being a major part of it and it was sexless for over 3 years with very intermittent sex for years before that.
> 
> It got to the stage where I totally fell out of love with my husband and I grimaced at his touch. I was ready to leave. Now, at that stage, I will agree that I did not feel love for my husband and I was not invested in our marriage.
> 
> ...


If only my WS had the moral courage to have a really genuine heart to heart instead of ruining my trust with an affair. How I wish this could have been the situation - we then could have arrived at a mutual understanding / decision and rid ourselves of resentments along the way. Not to be.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Sad stories. I feel sad when people post saying they understand how I feel. 

I feel sincere in saying if I were to decide to separate, that I have done everything in my power to a) communicate my feelings and come to an agreeable working solution, and b) worked on my part in this. Believe me, I have tried different approaches. Being super happy and respectfully attentive has not encouraged him to reciprocate. Behaving how I would like him to has not worked. Pulling away and focussing on me and not on him, has not changed a thing with him. He literally only puts thought in to what I like when we have argued or when he wants something or if he feels he has messed up. Day to day as A Bit Much pointed out, he has not changed.

I have. The focus elsewhere has helped me immensely. I genuinely thought he would respond with interest. Not really. I have pushed myself out of my comfort zone and met lots of new people. H allmost looks completely unaffected by me or my actions or inactions.


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## jdd (Aug 30, 2013)

Does he watch porn?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

He does. May be two to three times a week. I asked last year that he concentrate that energy towards me. He has not. He feels going solo has no direct impact on our sex life. I hoped if he directed all his energies towards me, and knowing I would not turn him down, it would bridge the gap between our libidos. I still do not know because he continues to take care of stuff more than we have sex.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

Yikes. Your story sounds almost exactly like me and my H. He showed no interest in me - would actually do things to avoid me. Would cringe at my touch. Would only have sex on his terms very infrequently (maybe once a month) but he would masturbate to porn several times a week. My H didn't have an EA, but all the things including this say to me that your H has checked out of the marriage. It got to the point where I insisted we go to MC. We did, but really, he had checked out way before that and the MC really just forced him to face that he wanted out of the relationship and he asked me for a divorce. He moved out, we lost our house, and we went through a legal separation. 

A few months ago ( a year and a half after he asked for a divorce) things rekindled between the two of us. We decided to try MC again. It's complicated since I had to take a job 700 miles away - we do MC through Skype - but the same old pattern has reemerged - he has gotten withdrawn and sullen. Avoids me. Gets mad if I contact him too much. 

The MC identified what she called the "pursuer-distancer" dynamic in the relationship. The pursuer (me) is trying hard to get emotional connection and the distancer (H) is trying hard to get space. The pursuer typically has abandonment issues and the distancer has intimacy issues. 

My Google research on the subject points out that couples who have this dynamic are more likely than other couples to divorce - because it's a black hole. You can't get the connection you want and he can't get away from you fast enough. 

My experience says that you really need a good marriage counselor for this one. It's not something you're going to be able to solve on your own. The fact that you are a SAHM concerns me because at the very least you should have some financial protection should he decide to really call it quits.


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## jdd (Aug 30, 2013)

walkingwounded said:


> He does. May be two to three times a week. I asked last year that he concentrate that energy towards me. He has not. He feels going solo has no direct impact on our sex life. I hoped if he directed all his energies towards me, and knowing I would not turn him down, it would bridge the gap between our libidos. I still do not know because he continues to take care of stuff more than we have sex.


For many many years (around 16 years) I looked at porn and had no idea of the damage it caused. I would have been the first one to tell anti-porn people that they are way too uptight and it's no big deal.

The problems include; You (in this case your husband) basically get conditioned to the extremely high arousal state that the porn induces. Take a look at this page:

Why Do I Find Porn More Exciting Than A Partner? | Your Brain On Porn

One thing that is almost never talked about and I've only recently made the connection to is that porn use / masterbation blunts your emotions. In my case I'm a bit on the autistic spectrum (which tends to cause difficulty with emotions and relating to people)and that combined with porn about turned off / blunted all but a couple emotions (I felt most everything as anger or anxiety). Here is a page with more:

Can porn use blunt my emotions? | Your Brain On Porn

Note: I have no connection with the above page, I just found their information helpful.

I never watched porn to an extreme (few times a week, sometimes less, sometimes more).

I identified with some of the ways you described things with your husband and they sounded so familiar. I'm not saying this is the only problem, but if your husband is willing to do it, giving up all porn and masterbation for a couple months might made a huge difference for you.

I've not used porn in 3 months now and have no desire to, I'm very much more satisfied with having real intimate relations. Thought there was a difficult period for a while where I had a really difficult time maintaining erections. Luckily my partner was very understanding and she was really good about helping me through it. 

We actually thought it was from medications I was on that caused the difficulty with erections, but I recently read more of the site I linked to above and found out that the problems with erections for a period of time after stopping porn are very common.

3 Months out I feel like I can feel for the first time in my life. I actually really feel empathy for the first time ever. It's so incredibly different and hard to explain what it's like to feel. If that is at all like what is going on with your husband with his emotions being blunted, well it could explain a lot of your problems.

This Ted Talk I very recently found also explains a huge problem that men in our society have (that I feel is deeply tied into the lack of meaningful loving emotion men feel and show):

Be A Man: Joe Ehrmann at TEDxBaltimore 2013 - YouTube

Hope this makes sense. It's not always the easiest for me to put all this into words that I feel like others will understand and relate to.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Thanks guys. Not got long but will say I also identified the pursuer-distancer dynamic. It was not present at first when dating but happened along the line, though not sure where. Dropping back appears to have no effect, he does not at any point start to compensate by moving towards me with any significance.

Porn. I feel H has been affected by it. He feels all women are orgasmic in any position. Any exception, is "abnormal" to him. His searches are quite tame, stuff like upskirt, woman alone, russian babe, squirting. He never expresses any desire for something different to do. He also rarely sexts, and does not respond to any I send with anything more than "cool." I can remember once recently when he spontaneously initiated, otherwise it is all planned.

I have also recently noticed he gets amorous in situations where it is impossible to follow through. Such as cooking dinner when the kids are around. He NEVER jumps on me when it is just me and him.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I wonder how he'd respond if you DID follow through on his untimely approaches? Like if you turned off the stove and grabbed his hand and took him into the bathroom and locked the door what would he do? 

It probably would shock the living daylights out of him and I bet he'd shut down. Why? Because he didn't intend it to go anywhere. He just wanted to have ammo when you complain about his not getting close.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

A Bit Much said:


> I wonder how he'd respond if you DID follow through on his untimely approaches? Like if you turned off the stove and grabbed his hand and took him into the bathroom and locked the door what would he do?
> 
> It probably would shock the living daylights out of him and I bet he'd shut down. Why? Because he didn't intend it to go anywhere. He just wanted to have ammo when you complain about his not getting close.


I know what happens. He will go with it... to a point. Then he will stop. 

You know, I do not even think it is for the ammo. I actually believe he is testing himself. Allmost like, yeah, we used to do that, let's see what that feels like now BUT with no intention of following through. To see if he likes that spontaneity if that makes sense?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

It's crazy-making stuff for sure. I'd be so tired of being tested. UGH.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I am gathering my thoughts. I have been toying with separation. I guess my doubt lies in where I question myself if I am being reasonable. I mean... he goes out to work and provides. He is a great father. He is handy around the house. I know he loves me in his own comfortable way. Is that enough? 

Then I think of explaining "why" when someone asks why we broke up with "my husband hates physical contact with me and spending any quality time witb me" and I think yeah, that is enough. 

I have a feeling if that *the* route I go, H is going to make it as difficult as possible. He would HATE being separated from the kids, logistically it makes much more sense with me as the SAHM to have the kids with me in their home and him find a place. He won't like that.


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## jdd (Aug 30, 2013)

walkingwounded said:


> Porn. I feel H has been affected by it. He feels all women are orgasmic in any position. Any exception, is "abnormal" to him.


This is really crazy to me and screams someone that has lives in a porn induced fog.



walkingwounded said:


> His searches are quite tame, stuff like upskirt, woman alone, russian babe, squirting. He never expresses any desire for something different to do.


I'm not sure it matters. The exposure to the stimuli and him wacking off to it are changing what arouses him and the stimuli that is required for him to climax. 



walkingwounded said:


> He also rarely sexts, and does not respond to any I send with anything more than "cool." I can remember once recently when he spontaneously initiated, otherwise it is all planned.


Seems out of touch with his emotions, like many men. Therapy might help; is that a consideration? 



walkingwounded said:


> I have also recently noticed he gets amorous in situations where it is impossible to follow through. Such as cooking dinner when the kids are around. He NEVER jumps on me when it is just me and him.


Lack of confidence?


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## jdd (Aug 30, 2013)

walkingwounded said:


> I am gathering my thoughts. I have been toying with separation. I guess my doubt lies in where I question myself if I am being reasonable. I mean... he goes out to work and provides. He is a great father. He is handy around the house. I know he loves me in his own comfortable way. Is that enough?


It might be like talking to a wall, but maybe consider giving him the chance to at least hear what is going on in your head. I know you have to make yourself vulnerable to tell him the issues with the relationship. Sounds like it might be worth it to make him understand how serious the issues are and see if he is willing to change. Lots of men want to make their partner happy and really just don't understand how.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

My husband was the same way for years. At first I thought my husband was gay and after many years later, I found out he was a serial cheater.

I'm not saying you husband is a cheater but it is a terrible way to live.

I am so happy with him out of my life. I have no boyfriend but it is true what they say about it being lonelier being with someone that does not care than to just be alone.

I feel for you.


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## SolidSnake (Dec 6, 2011)

Have you tried seeing what happens if you ignore him? Pulling a 180 basically? Not doing any chores for him, not touching him, not asking to spend time together, going out with your friends, doing your own thing, etc.? Would that change the pursuer/distancer dynamic if he felt he had to pursue you more?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> I am gathering my thoughts. I have been toying with separation. I guess my doubt lies in where I question myself if I am being reasonable. I mean... he goes out to work and provides. He is a great father. He is handy around the house. I know he loves me in his own comfortable way. Is that enough?
> 
> Then I think of explaining "why" when someone asks why we broke up with "my husband hates physical contact with me and spending any quality time witb me" and I think yeah, that is enough.
> 
> I have a feeling if that *the* route I go, H is going to make it as difficult as possible. He would HATE being separated from the kids, logistically it makes much more sense with me as the SAHM to have the kids with me in their home and him find a place. He won't like that.


So making him as comfortable as possible with your decision is your primary goal now? 

Where is my 2x4???


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

jdd said:


> It might be like talking to a wall, but maybe consider giving him the chance to at least hear what is going on in your head. I know you have to make yourself vulnerable to tell him the issues with the relationship. Sounds like it might be worth it to make him understand how serious the issues are and see if he is willing to change. Lots of men want to make their partner happy and really just don't understand how.


Done it. Many times. He tries for a couple of weeks max then back to his usual. I knew it may appear daunting or vague so I have been very specific. Now he hates any relationship talk. I do not bother any more simply because I have told him how I feel. I do not hide it but I do not instigate talks any more.



Rugs said:


> My husband was the same way for years. At first I thought my husband was gay and after many years later, I found out he was a serial cheater.
> 
> I'm not saying you husband is a cheater but it is a terrible way to live.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Sorry for your experience. You sound very positive despite it. I am working on my positivity.



SolidSnake said:


> Have you tried seeing what happens if you ignore him? Pulling a 180 basically? Not doing any chores for him, not touching him, not asking to spend time together, going out with your friends, doing your own thing, etc.? Would that change the pursuer/distancer dynamic if he felt he had to pursue you more?


If I literally ignore him, he does the same. He rarely if ever pursues me for any kind of quality time no matter how I behave. I can honestly say the only time he makes an effort in this department is if he has a vested interest (we have ften vacationed with his friend and wife which he likes as he has a drinking buddy) and if we have argued about our relationship.

I recently started helping out at school. I love it! He has been trying to persuade me for a while to volunteer somewhere as he thought it would be good for me ( aka distracting me from our marriage issues.) It was part of my plan any way. I thought he would be interested. It has made no difference whatsoever.



A Bit Much said:


> So making him as comfortable as possible with your decision is your primary goal now?
> 
> Where is my 2x4???


Lol! No. I meant he would make it difficult. If I choose to do that then it WILL be difficult for both of us. It is what it is. He has said before if I chose to split then *I* would need to leave. That is what I meant about him being difficult. Logistically he cannot look after the kids and go to work. It would make zero sense to pay for childcare when the whole reason I do not go out to work is to be there for the children ( one little one still at home with me, two in school.)


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> Lol! No. I meant he would make it difficult. If I choose to do that then it WILL be difficult for both of us. It is what it is. He has said before if I chose to split then *I* would need to leave. That is what I meant about him being difficult. Logistically he cannot look after the kids and go to work. It would make zero sense to pay for childcare when the whole reason I do not go out to work is to be there for the children ( one little one still at home with me, two in school.)


Separation and divorce is difficult. No one said it wouldn't be. Is your answer then to do nothing? Because it's going to be hard?

Doing nothing is also a choice. But when you choose that option you also give up the right to complain about it. You have decided to accept your circumstances. Acceptance and peace go hand in hand.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

You need to get a job. 

Separations rarely work and generally lead to D which means you have to go back to work.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I am not doing nothing. Where I am is where I need to be NOW. Looking back I can see the stages I have passed through. For me it simply is not a case of "right, done." I have needed to go through all of this to understand what is happening and consider my options. It may sound naive but it is only in the last few weeks I have truly realized that H is not changing. Prior to this I really thought he would have some trigger moment where it would snap in to place for him. If not from my persuasion, from the motivation of losing me.

It has taken till now to understand that is not happening. So now I am looking at future paths. Yes, I have asked myself if I can live with him as he is. For the sake of the kids. I do not think so. So I consider how I move forward. Yes of course separation is hard. I do need to think about the logistics of it though. I have actually been looking at jobs. Thinking about parenting schedules and practicalities.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Can I ask what you meant by 'near EA' in his past?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> Can I ask what you meant by 'near EA' in his past?


Sure. He got close to a co-worker a couple of years ago. Working together, secret just-them lunches. Close conversations. Texting outside of work. No declarations of love but too close for comfort. He slammed the brakes on when he realized he was getting in to something. I found out after. Complete shock to me as I thought we were good allthough I had felt something "off" around the time they started getting close.

He was up and down with handling my hurt. Good at times but not all the time. Found it hard to grasp doing things to rebuild trust and show openness. He was a real azz about it at times.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

HI, walking. Sorry things have gotten to this point, but glad to hear you sound real with how things are.

I was thinking the other day... you know how you read stories \ know people who stay in "limbo" or in a dead situation for years? (lots on TAM, for example) well I always wondered how in the world people could stay like that for a long time!

Maybe your H is one of those people too. For the sake of the kids, perhaps. 

I can only say that when I got to this point, and cooled off to match what was being given.... things did change. A notch up. But nothing further than that. I can relate to "realising" this is as good as it's going to get.


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

WW, I posted over here because I didn't want to jack your poll on stand-alone performances.

I went back and read some of your old posts. From his EA to later rejecting your initiation, your husband has not only not displayed any ability to give freely of himself to you in bed (as described in the other thread) but in any emotional area of your married life. The comment about the feet touching? PA baloney at its worst. I know, because that sounds like something I would have said in the long-ago.

You write that you are lonely within your marriage. That is a horrible place to be, for either gender. You've been posting on this for 2 years. What has changed? Your H is telling you this is who he is and I am afraid you don't want to believe it.

I think that people should never stop changing and growing, improving themselves and their lives. From everything you have written for two years, your H has not grown, he has regressed (his comment about not being as emotionally expressive as he was in the beginning), and really had no interest in changing. 

As a couple you either grow together - or end up growing apart.

If your husband is not willing to grow with you ... well, you know what your options are. Accept it, 180 and have your own life, or get ready to walk out the door. I'm sorry to be stark about it but it is what it is.

Whatever you do, I hope you find a path that works for you, that doesn't lead to 2+ more years of sadness.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Emotionally it feels like he has retreated. Life is busy and whilst he fits in other stuff of great or lesser significance, it is me that gets put aside. He does develop in the sense he finds new hobbies and gets really in to them. It does make him an intetesting guy. He would not do the same for our relationship. 

I have found out recently that he is not as devoid of emotion as he appears. He plays his cards close though. I cannot relate to this. I can "get" it. I would not ask for him to be the same as me... but just being able to *see* what he is feeling would help.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

It's a painful place to be. I'm in your bell jar, Walking, only I have stayed longer. I can tell you that in my case it got worse, never better. Sure, there were fleeting weeks here and there where he had the rectal craniectomy, but overall? He's got his, and that's all that matters. IMO, we are the symbols of 'having it all together': awesome (albeit codependent) wives, great kids, all the appearances taken care of. In some men's minds, who needs intimacy when they have everything lined up to facilitate avoiding it?

The behavior you're seeing is PA. it really is. And it's painful, angering and demeaning. it says you're less-than.

My plan? Get educated and able to support, then leave. In the meantime, I'm greatly entertaining an extreme 180, but am postponing due to child stressors that are sapping my energy, and also am building a stronger support network to help me stay balanced.


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## Fordsvt (Dec 24, 2010)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Everyone is different, of course, but I think I would extract myself from a marriage like this.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

TikiKeen, thanks. I have entertained that he is being PA. I know he can be at times. Honestly? I do not know. I do not know what he would be angry at. 

My impression has allways been the novelty wore off. Despite me making efforts to be a super awesome wife. We were talking earlier. He was saying he enjoyed being with me ( as in why we are married) and HJs on tap. Yes that is what he said. He paused and said well, he doesn't know really. And walked off. I know he is not the best with words but that stung.

We were sitting together not long ago. We are child free for tonight now. There was a certain lightness to the mood. I was being playfull but getting anything from him is like pulling teeth. He is in a good mood. I asked if he could massage my feet. He used to do this. He grimaced and eventually said he hates feet. OK. What about a shoulder rub? He said he "allways" gives me these... he thinks he does but in reality it is may be every two/three months. He sighed. I said don't worry about it- would rather not have it than have one done that wasn't done in love.

He stepped out and came back and rubbed my shoulders for five minutes. PA for sure.

Like you I have a plan. My plan is slightly different in that to a certain point I will be following the plan either with or without him as it is mainly my chosen career path. When I eventually get a job I can do it with or without him. I feel immensely better with this in place. Looking to a positive future helps.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

Please tell me the HJ's are stopping because of his entitlement attitude...


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Walking, my own experience... but I found the PA and money were tied together.
Whether it's logical or not....
-Resentful that his "partner" gets to sleep in, doesn't have to go to work
(SAHM is not lazing around, but some people cannot get past that)
They simply see it as THEY work hard and make money, SAHM gets to sleep in, have a dream life

Entitlement, just worded differently.

Asking them to do anything for you means getting past the entitlement.

Getting a job and earning your own money would be the ONLY thing I know of that shows, in actions, what the truth is.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Tiki, the HJs all but stopped a while ago. He was using them in place of sex... laziness I guess. I told him I was not good with that. Now I will do them in reasonable circumstances, such as during that time of the month if sex is a no go.

Deejov. I had not thought of the PA being because of that. I certainly do not get the luxury of sleeping in... ah that would be lovely! I do know he enjoys gojng out to work even if at times his job is stressfull and tiring. He likes feeling purposefull and providing. Logistically he knows it is easier for me to be at home untill the littlest starts school. I do not *think* this is the source of any PA behavior. But then I do not know what it *would* be.

He told me earlier he had asked a close friend and a co worker if they were affectionate or touchy feely in the evenings when they had time together. They both said no. He was trying to convince me it is MY outlook that is off. I did not participate... I could see a mile off the futility of it. A conversation about who is right about how affectionate couples should be? What's THAT going to achieve? How sad he cannot see we should be talking about how affectionate WE should be for each of us to feel happy. He does not get compromise with this. He just thinks one of us is right and thus the other wrong. No point explaining to him again. He doesn't listen. As far as he is concerned he does not want to be affectionate... and that is it.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

We are on an "upswing." This happens every so often. Allthough I have been quite negative, H is being quite affectionate and attentive the last couple of days. I assume it is another phase that will not last.

It is nice but unnerving. Like, throwing treats to a puppy. Fantastic but you know it won't last.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I have been thinking of keeping track of our relationship. Marking down the gestures he tells me he does (back massage etc) and finding out just how often he *does* do them. Not sure I would show him but sometimes stuff that has been said plays with your mind. I guess it would be more for my benefit just so I know my mind is not playing tricks. I think he genuinely believes he does these things more than he actually does.

Still on the upswing. I do feel bad because when he does nice things now, I just see it as really insincere and either find myself giving him the evils or joking about it. It actually throws me off guard because as long as he is being the "him" I am used to, I live in a state of predictability. I have not accepted it but adjusted around it I guess. 

Things he has done in the last few days:
* organized child free night last Saturday
* some spontaneous physical affection-hugging, hand holding
* not ushered me away from him when sat together
* full back rub (I asked, he didn't seem enthused but did anyway)
* fun conversation last night

There is a glaringly HUGE omission of anything demonstrating physical attraction for a while. I have written previously about how one of the things I need from him is some showing that he finds me attractive. It. Just. Doesn't. Happen. He has built this up in to some complicated thing AND IT IS NOT. A text. A phone call "just to say you looked amazing this morning." A whisper in the ear. A note. A spontaneous comment. Noticing a new outfit and saying I look good. An "I appreciate you allways take care of how you look/ dress." Anything like that.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I don't know why your husband doesn't do those things... but I know why I do not do those things.... because I've checked out and I have only done the bare minimum in the past to avoid WWIII.

I have heard the same complaints, actually. Not enough affection, making him feel like a king, putting him first at all times. 

The truth is I don't do it because I don't adore him or respect him.

If it were you.... what reasons would you give for not doing things your husband wants?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

This all sounds familiar. My H has even told our little girls to not put their feet on him, because he doesn't "like to be touched with feet." Before that, if I sat too close to him on the couch, he'd ask me to move away from him. Even our dear marriage counselor, who worked so hard to stay marriage-positive, couldn't contain the shock on her face when I told her about that one.

I'm sorry you're in this place. I know how awful it is. Right now I'm staying, but I honestly don't know how much longer. I don't want to give up 100% custody of my kids, and I have no interest in dating (small town anyway, there's no one I'd want to date here!), so I'd rather ignore him and have my kids full-time than struggle to keep this house on my own and have to share the kids. He's PA to them too, and I wouldn't want him around them without me around.

He knows how I feel. He doesn't seem to care.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

deejov said:


> I don't know why your husband doesn't do those things... but I know why I do not do those things.... because I've checked out and I have only done the bare minimum in the past to avoid WWIII.
> 
> I have heard the same complaints, actually. Not enough affection, making him feel like a king, putting him first at all times.
> 
> ...


Me? I would say because it does not matter to me whether he is happy or not. I would say I was detached enough that it does not bother me and I feel no need to make efforts towards him.

But I know he is different to me. I know there is stuff going on under the surface that he rarely reveals. He says little but thinks a lot. I believe that. I think he compartmentalizes aspects of his life.

I think he does not value me or fear losing me.


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