# No sex (literally), no effort on her part, resentfullness building



## detman (Jan 23, 2013)

I need advice and basically somewhere to vent. Here is the background. My wife and I have been married for 8-ish months but have been together for 10 years before that. We were virgins when we met, we were virgins when we got married, and unfortunately we are STILL virgins. 

Right after we got married, she said she wanted to wait for our honeymoon (3 months later) so that it would be "special". Fine.

While on our honeymoon, she said she didn't want to (not ready/what if I am sore and can't walk around). She literally packed the condoms in our luggage herself but didn't say anything about it until we were there.

We talked about it and she said she was scared but we would try when we got back.

We get back and everytime we are being "intimate", she jumps back and tightens up when I get close. Let's try a finger. Nope, same thing. Q-tip? Nope. 

Also after every time it doesn't happen, she says that she will try when she is alone and try to get used to it. She never makes that effort. She "forgets". Every time.

BTW, she refuses to give or receive oral. 

Finally after 7 months I get her to go to her gyn who says... well you have your hymen intact still so I can snip that and see if that helps. She doesn't want to do that. Gyn recommends dilators. Ok. I go online and buy the vaginismus kit with dilators. 
They have been here for a week and she hasn't looked at them

So now basically, I have slowly built up this resentment of her. And we have talked about it half a dozen times and she says she is just being lazy and she will be better about it but it never seems to last.

My resentment is reaching a boiling point and the smallest things are setting me off. I have tried explaining that I feel like I have a roommate instead of a wife and that for me sex is more than just getting off, it's about connecting and sharing etc. And it started from the lack of/indifference to sex but it's spreading to other things now. 

Btw, I have thought about past abuse but she denies it.

So just want to hear others thoughts. We haven't talked about counseling at this point (individual or couple).


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Why haven't you talked about counselling? You need to get the issues out somehow.

Personally, I'd start by investigating an annulment, since your marriage hasn't been consummated yet. But I would lay it on the line. Either you both work on resolving the issues, or it's over.

Btw, I'm assuming that you've tried all the "nice" ways to resolve the issues. That was the carrot. At some point, it's time to stop trying nice, and start laying down some boundaries (and enforcing them). I'm not saying she has to jump right into sex; she obviously has issues that need to be worked through. But she does need to start working on those issues. Cause they're not going away on their own.

C


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

PBear is right

I'd look into annulment to see what the limitations are on it. I would then tell her if she can't get past this issue before that time, it's time to move on!

8 months AFTER marriage (never mind the 10 years before) is a LONG time to wait for sex!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You've invested almost 11 years of your life with this woman without sex? Staying is more rewarding to you than leaving or you'd already be gone. The resentment isn't helpful, although it's understandable. No one can do anything to you that you don't permit. I believe I'd just tell her I wasn't willing to live in a sexless marriage; that a sexless marriage isn't a marriage; and she can be a wife or she can be single again. Put a very narrow time limit on it and if you don't see dramatic effort on her part to improve, then get the annulment and find a real woman. She apparently doesn't want a husband, but a buddy, or, more likely, someone to help with bills.


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

I guess your wife wants and expects a sexless marriage. you have been beyond patient. This issue is a deal breaker. As much as I'm sure you love her, it's time for you to issue an ultimatum. Either you have a fulfilling sex life, or you have to walk. Her behavior in unacceptable.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

detman said:


> My wife and I have been married for 8-ish months but have been together for 10 years before that. We were virgins when we met, we were virgins when we got married, and unfortunately we are STILL virgins.


Since you are still a virgin, I will assume you are Christian. If you are Catholic, your marriage can be annulled because of a lack of consummation. If you are Protestant, your marriage can probably be annulled, depending on state law.

Anyway, if you've been married 8 months without having sex, then you're not really married. You just pretended. It's no different than a pair of 6 year-olds pretending to marry each other. It's not real.



detman said:


> Right after we got married, she said she wanted to wait for our honeymoon (3 months later) so that it would be "special". Fine.


You waited 3 months to go on your honeymoon? And this is after remaining celibate for 10 years? What the hell? I wouldn't have been able to wait until after the reception.



detman said:


> While on our honeymoon, she said she didn't want to (not ready/what if I am sore and can't walk around). She literally packed the condoms in our luggage herself but didn't say anything about it until we were there.


And you accepted that? What the hell?



detman said:


> We talked about it and she said she was scared but we would try when we got back.


And you accepted that? What the hell?



detman said:


> We get back and everytime we are being "intimate", she jumps back and tightens up when I get close. Let's try a finger. Nope, same thing. Q-tip? Nope.


And you accepted that? What the hell?



detman said:


> Also after every time it doesn't happen, she says that she will try when she is alone and try to get used to it. She never makes that effort. She "forgets". Every time.


And you accepted that? What the hell?



detman said:


> Finally after 7 months I get her to go to her gyn who says... well you have your hymen intact still so I can snip that and see if that helps. She doesn't want to do that. Gyn recommends dilators. Ok. I go online and buy the vaginismus kit with dilators.
> They have been here for a week and she hasn't looked at them


And you accepted that? What the hell?



detman said:


> So now basically, I have slowly built up this resentment of her. And we have talked about it half a dozen times and she says she is just being lazy and she will be better about it but it never seems to last.


You're slowly beginning to resent her? What would she have to do for you quickly begin to resent her? Stab you in the face? Probably not. You would be understanding. Maybe she had a good reason to stab you in the face. Maybe she just "forgot" that she shouldn't stab you in the face. 



detman said:


> My resentment is reaching a boiling point and the smallest things are setting me off. I have tried explaining that I feel like I have a roommate instead of a wife and that for me sex is more than just getting off, it's about connecting and sharing etc. And it started from the lack of/indifference to sex but it's spreading to other things now.


You feel like you have a roommate because that's exactly what you have. But you have the worst roommate in the world. You have a roommate that expects you to remain celibate forever. Try putting that on Craigslist and see how many responses you get.



detman said:


> Btw, I have thought about past abuse but she denies it.


Stop making excuses for her. She says there's no abuse. The doctor says her hymen is intact. She says she's just being lazy. And you keep thinking there must be abuse to explain it? Use Occam's Razor. If it looks like she just doesn't want to have sex with you, and she admits that she just doesn't want to have sex with you, then the hard truth is that she just doesn't want to have sex with you.



detman said:


> So just want to hear others thoughts. We haven't talked about counseling at this point (individual or couple).


Counseling is for people who want to fix a problem and are unsure about how to do it, or how to communicate with each other effectively. That's not your problem. Your wife doesn't want to fix this. She is communicating with you effectively. She doesn't want to have sex with you. Period. End of story.

You may have noticed a pattern in my responses above. That's because you have some responsibility in this because you have allowed her to lead you around by the nose for 11 years. You need to stop allowing that. The good news is that if you expect a sexual marriage, and you refuse to accept a sexless marriage, then you will have a sexual marriage. The bad news is that it might not be with your wife.

You have three options.
1. You can accept the status quo. Your wife has imposed a lifetime of celibacy on you. You should just deal with it and try to be happy with the roommate you have.
2. You can annul your marriage, or divorce your wife. I believe even the most ardent Christian will allow for annulment in a case such as yours. This means you can go find a normal woman with a healthy sex drive who understands that sex is a part of marriage. This is the easiest option.
3. You can try to change your marriage into a sexual marriage. This means you stop letting your wife run things. You take your place as the head of the household. You stop accepting such lame excuses as being too lazy to have sex the very first time. Laziness is an acceptable excuse to avoid sex the fifth time in three days. It's not an acceptable excuse for avoiding all sex forever. This is the hardest option. It might not even be possible.

Your wife might have married you because she thought you would accept a lifetime of celibacy. She might not be attracted to you at all. Most women like having sex with husbands they're attracted to. If this is the case, then you need to become more attractive, or accept that she is broken beyond your ability to repair.

Good luck.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Holy Cow! 11 years and 8 months you've been supportive of your GF/wife with the promise that upon marriage you would get your needs met.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but sexual compatibility is the main reason why I do not advocate chastity till marriage. I put my money where my mouth is and counseled all my kids to develop a healthy and loving sex life when they felt ready.

Now this poor man, married before God and community, and this poor woman mired down in her own paralyzingly fears (and clearly closed off to experimentation) have to almost open the doors to their bedroom should they decide this is a deal breaker. Imagine his humiliation letting his closest friends know he's been this much of a pansy by trying to be Godly, loving and patient.

Yes OP, pansy. I know you think you've been patient and loving, but you've really just allowed her to completely ignore your most important need for 11 years and 8 months. No BJ's, no HJ's, no sex play of any kind. .. And you continue to put her needs before yours? 

Thats a pansy. If your needs are important, then YOU make sure they are met.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but sexual compatibility is the main reason why I do not advocate chastity till marriage.


I do disagree. While the OP would have discovered his wife's sex avoidance issues if they tried to have sex before marriage, I don't think religion is the issue here.

First, having a 10 year courtship, unless they started "dating" when they were 8 years old, is just foolish. If they started dating at an early age, even in their teens, it's still too long to wait. They probably knew they would marry much earlier than 10 years.

Second, they probably never had legitimate conversations about sex. The OP probably just assumed it would happen magically. If he had insisted on talking about it, and taken the lead on it by expressing its importance, his wife either would have called off the engagement when she realized she wouldn't be able to provide the sex he would insist on, or she would have just had sex with him on their wedding night.

Third, he hasn't insisted on having a sexual marriage. People will walk all over you if you let them. The OP has been a doormat and his wife has treated him as such.

None of those issues are religious. And there are some studies that show that people who wait for sex until being with their spouses have longer marriages than those who sleep around before marriage.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Sir, I have no further advice to you except: Get a divorce, quick, while you still can do it without much trouble. Run. Pronto. Now. NOW!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Get an annulment. This is so not worth it. She's never going to have sex with you. 

Ever.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I never mentioned religion, you did.

But how do people have significant conversations regarding topics about which they are ignorant? If neither person has had sex, neither person knows what they want, how to please, how to be pleasing. That ONLY comes through doing. They may have vague ideas based on something realistic, or it may be Disney princess unrealistic. To remain chaste, adults typically avoid sexual situations, thoughts, images, anything that might provoke and unchaste action. Not the best way to develop your sexual self.

But if you want to bring religion into it, because religion is the only basis to advocate chastity. Why don't religions do a better job of preparing young adults to fulfill the most important need both men and women have? no matter the frequency, everyone has a NEED to have sex and achieve release. If a religion dictates that release must only take place in the marriage bed, then they should start teaching engaged couples all about that bed, what is expected, the variations involved, how a man feels how a woman feels, what his body is like, what her body is like...

We teach kids and young adult all kinds of vital adult skills but do NOTHING to teach then how to have an enthusiastic, loving, giving sex life with their spouse/partner. We leave all the learning up to them and our culture bombards them with ideals and images that are absurd, and leave it up to them to figure it out. We fail our children when we fail to teach them about their bodies, about their sexual selves, about the ways between consenting adults. If you want your kids to be happy, productive, caring adults who have loving relationships and a reverence for goodness, sex is a huge part of being able to sustain loving relationships. 

If these two kids had learned about their bodies, their feelings, and all the ways between a man and a woman, they would already be having a great sex life. A long engagement has nothing what so ever to do with it.


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## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

There are lots of crazy, sad, wild stories on this forum and others that often leave me shaking my head. Unfortunately there usually part of a common theme that unfortunately define the lives of many people that find themselves going through what seems to be an almost inevitable relationship crisis. Been there myself..

But every once in a while I read a story that I qualify as "extreme" just because it's so freaking out there that it's almost unbelievable yet I just know it's true and I can't imagine how a person could live like that.

This one just made the short list.


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## OrganizedChaos (Jan 23, 2013)

I don't think shes a virgin. 

And I think its possible she doesn't know how to break it to you.


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## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

OrganizedChaos said:


> I don't think shes a virgin.
> 
> And I think its possible she doesn't know how to break it to you.


Crazy theory!

If that was the case she could have just said the gyno snipped her hymen and then she'd climb right on.

You think she'd refrain from sex for 11 years just to cover up a lie that could be covered up with an easily fabricated story about a surgical technique?


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## OrganizedChaos (Jan 23, 2013)

sharkeey said:


> Crazy theory!
> 
> If that was the case she could have just said the gyno snipped her hymen and then she'd climb right on.
> 
> You think she'd refrain from sex for 11 years just to cover up a lie that could be covered up with an easily fabricated story about a surgical technique?


I would say its just as likely as two people being together for 11 years and not sleeping together. 

Either that or she has some kind of security issue around her sexuality, maybe some sort of abuse in her past that she has not shared yet.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Time to move on from this one my friend. All those years sexless? Something doesn't pass the smell test here but if this is true get out now.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Well, let us know if you ever get married OP. we'll be waiting with bated breath.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I never mentioned religion, you did.
> 
> But how do people have significant conversations regarding topics about which they are ignorant? If neither person has had sex, neither person knows what they want, how to please, how to be pleasing. That ONLY comes through doing. They may have vague ideas based on something realistic, or it may be Disney princess unrealistic. To remain chaste, adults typically avoid sexual situations, thoughts, images, anything that might provoke and unchaste action. Not the best way to develop your sexual self.
> 
> ...


Mr. AnonPink, unfortunately, everything you said above is true, it's very true 

In many Asian countries, anti-sex attitudes of religious establishments are being made into State Law, with all its negative consequences.

Western people should be grateful that in most countries in the West, religion and state laws are not one and the same.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> I never mentioned religion, you did.


You said that the OP was trying to be godly, loving, and patient.



Anon Pink said:


> But how do people have significant conversations regarding topics about which they are ignorant? If neither person has had sex, neither person knows what they want, how to please, how to be pleasing. That ONLY comes through doing.


The OP's problem isn't that his wife has poor technique. It's that she is completely averse to sex with him. That's not something she discovered. She knew it before she ever failed to have sex.

The conversations that I'm talking about isn't about one partner saying that he wants positions A, B, and C. It's about saying that a fulfilling sex life should be part of marriage. It's expressing the expectation for marriage and establishing the fact that anything less is unacceptable.



Anon Pink said:


> To remain chaste, adults typically avoid sexual situations, thoughts, images, anything that might provoke and unchaste action. Not the best way to develop your sexual self.


I don't think sleeping around is the best way to develop your sexual self, either. Two people who have only been with each other have something special. It's more special than saying you are your spouse's most recent partner.



Anon Pink said:


> But if you want to bring religion into it, because religion is the only basis to advocate chastity.


Religion isn't the ONLY basis to advocate chastity. As I said, couples who marry their first sexual partner divorce less often than couples with more experience. Generally speaking, the more experienced a couple is before marriage, the higher the incidence of divorce.



Anon Pink said:


> Why don't religions do a better job of preparing young adults to fulfill the most important need both men and women have? no matter the frequency, everyone has a NEED to have sex and achieve release. If a religion dictates that release must only take place in the marriage bed, then they should start teaching engaged couples all about that bed, what is expected, the variations involved, how a man feels how a woman feels, what his body is like, what her body is like...


I agree. I think churches have a long way to go to compete with our sexual culture. But I think they could do a much better job of communicating that sex isn't evil. It's just something for marriage.



Anon Pink said:


> If you want your kids to be happy, productive, caring adults who have loving relationships and a reverence for goodness, sex is a huge part of being able to sustain loving relationships.


You're preaching to the choir.



Anon Pink said:


> If these two kids had learned about their bodies, their feelings, and all the ways between a man and a woman, they would already be having a great sex life. A long engagement has nothing what so ever to do with it.


I disagree. Being asexual around your wife for 10 years establishes a powerful precedent. That's a lot of inertia to overcome.

And I think the OP's wife already knew about her body and her feelings before the marriage. That's why they waited months to go on their honeymoon. That's why she refused him before anything happened. She didn't try it and discover that she didn't like it. She was never even willing to try.

Conversely, a couple who is committed to each other can have a wonderful time discovering sex with each other. The difference is that the commitment is there from the beginning.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I know this is crazy, but are you even sure she's a woman? Could there be physical issues (like a penis) that she isn't telling you about?

And I don't mean this is a mean or facetious way. Could she seriously be hiding something physical from you?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> You said that the OP was trying to be godly, loving, and patient.
> 
> 
> The OP's problem isn't that his wife has poor technique. It's that she is completely averse to sex with him. That's not something she discovered. She knew it before she ever failed to have sex.
> ...


How do ignorant and unenlightened people come to the conclusion of wanting a fulfilling sex life? Horny adolescent boy will likely come to a very different conclusion than a starry eyed Disney princess wannabe. How do fearful, shameful and uneducated people define fulfilling sex life?

This has nothing to do with technique. It has to do with understanding oneself. We don't come to an understanding without experimentation. We don't experiment unless we feel safe, free and encouraged. When we are raised in an environment, and this is from a girls perspective (also raised in ignorance and shame) that discourages growth and understanding about the most vital activity in which we engage we are not capable of premarital negotiations. 



PHTlump said:


> And I think the OP's wife already knew about her body and her feelings before the marriage. That's why they waited months to go on their honeymoon. That's why she refused him before anything happened. She didn't try it and discover that she didn't like it. She was never even willing to try.


I would bet my house that inside Mrs. OP's head she really thought that she'd be magically freed from all fears and inhibitions once she got married and her disappointment that it didn't happen only drove her further underground in terms of being willing to overcome her fear in favor of meeting his needs, and since he's set so much precedent that his needs aren't that important, the message shes had was her fear is more important than his needs. Furthermore, She's had SOOOO many years to cement her fear without serious and drastic ultimatums and actions, she will go to her grave a virgin.



PHTlump said:


> I don't think sleeping around is the best way to develop your sexual self, either. Two people who have only been with each other have something special. It's more special than saying you are your spouse's most recent partner.
> 
> 
> Religion isn't the ONLY basis to advocate chastity. As I said, couples who marry their first sexual partner divorce less often than couples with more experience. Generally speaking, the more experienced a couple is before marriage, the higher the incidence of divorce.


With all due respect Mr. Lump, that is a load of crapola! The more traditionalist churches are the ones that strongly advocate for chastity until marriage and they are also the ones that strongly discourage and even deny divorce. Statistics show that couples who come to marriage with the skills to resolve conflict, have realistic expectations, and have a developed understanding of sexuality have the most success in marriage. Chastity has nothing what so ever to do with marital success. 

Do not attempt to categorize developing a healthy, loving sex life with sleeping around. Promiscuity and indiscriminate sex is just as damaging as being raised in shame and fear. 





PHTlump said:


> Conversely, a couple who is committed to each other can have a wonderful time discovering sex with each other. The difference is that the commitment is there from the beginning.


They can only have a wonderful time discovering sex if they have BOTH been taught all about sex in it's many forms and variations. How many men keep their "sick" sexual fantasies to themselves because they fear their wives reactions. Mr. Pink is encouraged to tell me everything unless it has something to do with children and animals, I draw the line there. It took me YEARS and YEARS to get to this point and I will NOT have my children go through the same things to get here.

Love yourself, love your body, love sharing your body and your love with the one you love. <-- Not exactly the theme chastity produces.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I don't know if you are a Harry Potter Fan, but chastity before marriage is like Defense against the Dark Arts as taught by Deloris Umbridge!


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## uncool (Dec 12, 2010)

my wife wouldn't have sex on our wedding night either even after she had her hymen snipped by her doctor. So no, I don't believe it's the hymen thing at all. The problem is your wife is so darn stubborn that she won't even "try"
Would she be angry if she caught you masturbating? maybe she ought to "catch" you doing that so she can see you have needs that aren't being met.
I've been in a sexless marriage for a long time thinking that it will change any day now. And now I'm discovering I'm an idiot for thinking this. So how deeply in love are you really with this woman? How can you love somebody who constantly rejects you? It will take a toll on your confidence etc. as your life progresses. You'll constantly be trying to win your wife's acceptance and she'll constantly be telling you no. I know this because I'm in a sexless marriage and it sucks and I feel for anybody who thinks it might change later on. IT WON"T !! trust me!!!!
If you guys finally do have sex it's going to suck. She will hate it because of what she's told herself in her mind. You don't want this be it's inevitable. 
Right now she does NOT accept you as her husband or soul mate. 

As for right now I can give you a one word advise: "Annulment"


.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

That is one strategy that my be effective. Start openly masturbating whenever you feel like it. Show by your actions that you're going to be sexual and she can either come along on the ride or get left behind. You might even put up a profile on a dating website and leave the computer on so she can see it. Stop hiding your sexuality. Get it in her face a bit.


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## detman (Jan 23, 2013)

Thanks for everyone's perspective. I was basically lied to leading up to getting married, and it hasn't changed afterwards. Investing so many years into makes it hard to contemplate ending it but time wasted in this is time lost later. I think a hard deadline and ultimatum of annulment if deadline isn't met is the best way to go. Thanks, and wish me luck...


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## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> That is one strategy that my be effective. Start openly masturbating whenever you feel like it.


Take this bit of advice with a grain of salt.

I tried that "openly masturbate whenever you want" strategy at one time.

It upset people on the bus although it was one way to prevent people from sitting near me.

Got myself kicked out of a few restaurants too.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

sharkeey said:


> Take this bit of advice with a grain of salt.
> 
> I tried that "openly masturbate whenever you want" strategy at one time.
> 
> ...


lol


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

detman said:


> Thanks for everyone's perspective. I was basically lied to leading up to getting married, and it hasn't changed afterwards. Investing so many years into makes it hard to contemplate ending it but time wasted in this is time lost later. I think a hard deadline and ultimatum of annulment if deadline isn't met is the best way to go. Thanks, and wish me luck...


Hard deadline....hmm, here's how my hard deadline would work: "ok, no more bullsh!t. I'm walking out the door right now and I'm never coming back. If you're naked by the time I reach the door, maybe you can convince me to stay. Otherwise I'm gone."

A deadline does nothing. Nothing at all. It's just another moving goalpost. The time for deadlines has long past. No more "working on it" or "trying harder". You've come to the point of "now or never".


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> How do ignorant and unenlightened people come to the conclusion of wanting a fulfilling sex life? Horny adolescent boy will likely come to a very different conclusion than a starry eyed Disney princess wannabe. How do fearful, shameful and uneducated people define fulfilling sex life?


Ignorant people have the same hormones the rest of us have. They can recognize them for what they are. A horny teenage boy knows that he's horny. Either a person is horny, or he's not. Either he wants to submit to his urges, or he doesn't. The basic decision doesn't require much experimentation.



Anon Pink said:


> I would bet my house that inside Mrs. OP's head she really thought that she'd be magically freed from all fears and inhibitions once she got married and her disappointment that it didn't happen only drove her further underground in terms of being willing to overcome her fear in favor of meeting his needs, and since he's set so much precedent that his needs aren't that important, the message shes had was her fear is more important than his needs. Furthermore, She's had SOOOO many years to cement her fear without serious and drastic ultimatums and actions, she will go to her grave a virgin.


Perhaps. Although, I'm willing to bet the opposite. I'm betting the honeymoon was scheduled months after the wedding so that there would be an excuse for not having sex on the wedding night.



Anon Pink said:


> With all due respect Mr. Lump, that is a load of crapola! The more traditionalist churches are the ones that strongly advocate for chastity until marriage and they are also the ones that strongly discourage and even deny divorce.


What does divorce have to do with religion? We are past the days when judges pay heed to what the Church teaches. Any person in this country, even the most devout Christian, can go to a secular judge and divorce his, or her, spouse and give no reason whatsoever.



Anon Pink said:


> Statistics show that couples who come to marriage with the skills to resolve conflict, have realistic expectations, and have a developed understanding of sexuality have the most success in marriage. Chastity has nothing what so ever to do with marital success.


First, conflict resolution skills have nothing to do with sexual experience. That's just a foolish assertion. And chastity does inversely correlate quite nicely with divorce. The more sexual partners before marriage, the higher the incidence of divorce.



Anon Pink said:


> Do not attempt to categorize developing a healthy, loving sex life with sleeping around. Promiscuity and indiscriminate sex is just as damaging as being raised in shame and fear.


Fair enough. I'll leave it for you to define how many partners are required to develop a healthy, loving sex life versus how many partners become indiscriminate sleeping around.

But that isn't pertinent to my point. Success in marriage does not depend on sleeping with other people (whether a lot or a little) before marriage. One could even argue that success depends more on having as little sexual experience as possible.



Anon Pink said:


> They can only have a wonderful time discovering sex if they have BOTH been taught all about sex in it's many forms and variations. How many men keep their "sick" sexual fantasies to themselves because they fear their wives reactions. Mr. Pink is encouraged to tell me everything unless it has something to do with children and animals, I draw the line there. It took me YEARS and YEARS to get to this point and I will NOT have my children go through the same things to get here.


I understand. I was in the same boat. It took me hundreds, or perhaps thousands of sexual encounters with my wife before I started to let my freaky nature show. It just wouldn't have been possible to attain that level of intimacy with a girlfriend, or a series of girlfriends. At least not without crossing the threshold of promiscuity that you think isn't required.



Anon Pink said:


> Love yourself, love your body, love sharing your body and your love with the one you love. <-- Not exactly the theme chastity produces.


I disagree. Chastity just depends on marrying the one you love. Then, it's all good. Your preferred strategy seems to have much more room for error. If you can love people on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being marriage material, who should you have sex with? 7s and up? Given that you're treating premarital sex as training anyway, why even insist on love? Why not just have casual, meaningless sex so that you learn some tips and tricks for your eventual spouse?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Mr. lump, kindly do not put words in my mouth. There exists a broad spectrum between encouraging the development and understanding of our sexual selves and encouraging promiscuity. I think we are closer to agreement than you might see. 

With one gay child and two hetero, and all 3 in loving relationships and enjoying their sex lives, all competent caring productive adults, all 3 involved in their community in one respect or another, I can state unequivocally that education and encouragement produced MUCH better results than any chastity based approach I've seen.


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## detman (Jan 23, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I would bet my house that inside Mrs. OP's head she really thought that she'd be magically freed from all fears and inhibitions once she got married and her disappointment that it didn't happen only drove her further underground in terms of being willing to overcome her fear in favor of meeting his needs, and since he's set so much precedent that his needs aren't that important, the message shes had was her fear is more important than his needs. Furthermore, She's had SOOOO many years to cement her fear without serious and drastic ultimatums and actions, she will go to her grave a virgin.


Anon Pink, I think you have hit the nail on the head. I made it worse by not making my needs clear during our 10 years of being together and thought she was honestly just waiting to be married. I am going to make my needs clear, give her one chance to address her issues and hope the last part of your quote doesn't come true. But, I con't continue with how things are now, and I can't let myself be dragged along.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> Mr. lump, kindly do not put words in my mouth. There exists a broad spectrum between encouraging the development and understanding of our sexual selves and encouraging promiscuity. I think we are closer to agreement than you might see.


I have given you the opportunity to clarify your position. You are certainly advocating premarital sex with multiple partners. But you say you are not advocating promiscuity. Yet you haven't said how many partners, approximately, you suggest people have, or how many partners, approximately, would cross the threshold into promiscuity.

Really, you're just arguing a value judgment. Some people may consider a person with 4 sexual partners as promiscuous. Some people may consider a person with 20 sexual partners as not promiscuous. It's really just an opinion.



Anon Pink said:


> With one gay child and two hetero, and all 3 in loving relationships and enjoying their sex lives, all competent caring productive adults, all 3 involved in their community in one respect or another, I can state unequivocally that education and encouragement produced MUCH better results than any chastity based approach I've seen.


I don't think you can say that at all. You have made a conclusion based on your 3 children. If you had 6,497 more children, then you could match a study conducted by the National Survey of Family Growth. That survey showed that higher numbers of sexual partners correlated with higher incidences of divorce.

So, I'll put more credibility in the survey of 6,500 women than I will put in your 3 anecdotes. But, I'm glad your kids are happy. I hope they stay happy.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

That survey is something I am familiar with and it is, once again, a load of crapola! As I've already stated, the correlation has more to do with comparing chastity prior to marriage and linking non chaste couples with marriage failure rates. If you really want to know if, or how much, prior sexual activity affects a marriage, then you MUST remove all outliers and that would be those chaste prior to marriage since they had NO prior sex partners. Show me those results and then we'll talk. 

As I've said before,more traditional religions that heavily frown on sexual freedoms also heavily frown on divorce. But that has no bearing on how good said marriages are. It just means they are sticking it out.

Hense, a survey that correlates happy marriages with number if sex partners might demonstrate a correlation. But that correlation is likely to have more to do with impulsivity and number of sex partners and conflict resolution. 

Look, I'm not trying to assert the best way to marital bliss is not chastity prior to marriage. I am not discounting your beliefs, really I'm not. What I am saying is that IF your beliefs dictate chastity prior to marriage is the best way to have a happy marriage, then you need to start educating your young people comprehensively removing shame and encouraging them to love their bodies so that when they ARE married they can show their spouse how to love their bodies too.

Thank you, I'm sure my children will encounter their fair share of troubles. My wish is that I have given them the tools to cope.


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