# Purposely hurtful behaviour?



## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

A while ago, before hubz's EA, I was upset at his handling of me being affectionate. I would go to kiss him, hug him etc, and he would often back away, sometimes he would actually hold me away at arm's length with his hands on my shoulders, saying, "what are you doing?"

It was really hurtful. I don't know if he ever really took it seriously - it was hard to tell. He said a few times he was just joking, but tbh it never looked or sounded like he was joking and he never said that at the time.

His main explanation was that he just isn't "like that" ie an affectionate person. When in truth he was like that a lot and somewhere he just stopped.

I explained many times how much that behaviour upset me. Particularly after his EA when he happily wrapped his arms around the woman in question when she asked for a hug. Me? For him to do that with me was laughable.

He was better for a while. The other day though... I went to give him a hug. He just stood there. Asked the immortal question... "What are you doing?"

I pulled away. I thought, no, he knows how much that hurts me. So I brushed it off, and said, "this," and hugged him again. And out came the same question, "what are you doing?" I just walked away. He shouted after me, "come here, come here," and beckoned me over.

I went over and went to hug him. It was like hugging a statue. He was like, you may hug me now, and I was like WTF???

I've been turning this over in my head. Thinking - okay, either it's one of three things. He's got a really bad taste in jokes. Or he just "forgot" that that is really upsetting to me. Or even lastly, that he said it deliberately to hurt me.

My instinct tells me to do it back to him because clearly no amount of explaining how hurtful that behaviour is, actually motivates him to stop doing it.

What do I do?


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

sounds like you and he need to have open, honest talk about your relationship, perhaps have that talk with the mediation of a professional counselor. could be other reasons than the three you listed as in, he just doesn't care.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Well yes there is that option. Not looking forward to another talk about feelings tbh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anabel (Dec 21, 2012)

Some people do seem to feel overwhelmed with too much hugging and kissing if they are stressed out or in a bad mood. There are those who especially don't like it if you've had an argument recently and there's something not quite resolved yet. It doesn't seem appropriate to them unless everyone's happy. (I'm like that at times and don't intend it to be purposefully hurtful. ) There may be something else going on, but you could try giving him space when you get a "back off" vibe or just stop giving him all the affection for a while. If he suddenly becomes more attentive, he's probably telling you the truth and just needs a bit more room to breathe. People are honestly different that way.


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## heavensangel (Feb 12, 2012)

My instinct tells me to do it back to him because clearly no amount of explaining how hurtful that behaviour is, actually motivates him to stop doing it. 

If he truly doesn't care, this won't do you any good. Sorry, I haven't read your whole story; have you two attended MC for the EA? If not, I would do so if for nothing else than to help him understand how much his rejection of you hurts. Judging by his reaction, it doesn't sound like he takes your feelings seriously. Hearing what he needs to do different from an objective third party might make more of an impact on him.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

We have done counselling. I have worked through the feelings from the EA. It's more the longer after-effects that rear their ugly heads from time to time.

Like that hug thing is a real trigger for me. We talked about it in counselling, and have done since. Hiz reasoning is consistently that a) he isn't an affectionate person, and b) he was just joking.

Fact is he used to be the more affectionate of us two and the dynamic changed somewhere. I can offer examples that back this up, but when I say this, he glosses over it. 

Thing is, even in and of itself... it just isn't that funny. Being held at arm's length is not nice. But add to that the fact he KNOWS it is an issue for me that I would like him to be more affectionate PLUS he knows it is a big step for me in terms of confidence to initiate such affection... It just looks either cruel, or REALLY thoughtless.

I did ask about the incident in question... He said he was joking. So what then is the point of me sharing my intimate feelings with him if he takes no notice?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

You've summed the problem up: He holds you at arm's length. The question is, "Why?" 

He attempts to answer that when he says he isn't an affectionate person. Instead of trying to prove that he used to be, have you ever approached it from a passive stance by saying, "What changed that causes you to feel less comfortable with physical affection these days?" 

You might discover that what he's telling you is the truth. He may never have been a touchy-feely type, especially if he came from a family that was conflicted or distant. When he met you, perhaps he felt safer than he had before, but as familiarity and occasional complaints/criticism set in, that safety vanished and he reverted to an arm's length safety zone. 

For your part, you could also try asking him first. "I'd love to hug you right now. May I?"


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

tobio said:


> A while ago, before hubz's EA, I was upset at his handling of me being affectionate. I would go to kiss him, hug him etc, and he would often back away, sometimes he would actually hold me away at arm's length with his hands on my shoulders, saying, "what are you doing?"
> 
> It was really hurtful. I don't know if he ever really took it seriously - it was hard to tell. He said a few times he was just joking, but tbh it never looked or sounded like he was joking and he never said that at the time.
> 
> ...


Seems like your husband was more into making the OW feel comforted than you. 
Are you two truly R'd?
If so, I would imagine that you would have rekindled the emotional/sexual chemistry you two had before.
One doesn't just stop being affectionate towards their mate without a reason & it's NOT "because I'm not affectionate."
Maybe he's not as into the marriage as he pretends to be. 
Non-verbal communication "says" more than verbal. 
Time for a Come to Jesus talk with him & you have your answer to why he won't show you affection, but did with the OW.


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## heavensangel (Feb 12, 2012)

So what then is the point of me sharing my intimate feelings with him if he takes no notice?

I hear your frustration. I also know what it feels like to bare your soul and then have the exact needs you disclosed kept from you purposely to hurt you! It sucks! The very one you should be able to trust most with your heart, thinks nothing of crushing it and then making light of it... all at the expense of you. 

When you were in counseling, did the 'I'm not an affectionate person' statement come up? If so, did the counselor offer ways you both should compromise so that each of your wants/needs were taken under consideration? Have you two done the five love languages? If not, you may want to consider doing so. One of the love languages is physical touch; if in fact this is not something your H desires, it should show in the results in the test given.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

tobio said:


> A while ago, before hubz's EA, I was upset at his handling of me being affectionate. I would go to kiss him, hug him etc, and he would often back away, sometimes he would actually hold me away at arm's length with his hands on my shoulders, saying, "what are you doing?"
> 
> It was really hurtful. I don't know if he ever really took it seriously - it was hard to tell. He said a few times he was just joking, but tbh it never looked or sounded like he was joking and he never said that at the time.
> 
> ...


Tobio, there is a nasty dynamic going on here and you are playing your part to perfection. Your husband has lost respect for you and therefore is not attracted. Clinging onto him when he treats you like a jerk is the quickest way to disaster. 

Realize that you have self worth and his cold treatment as well as the EA are just not an acceptable option. Only when you make a real stand defend your own honor will he see you as a person worth defending. Note this may mean divorce. If that's not an option then your under an illusion that it's not going there already but in a much worse emotional state. Let what happens happen but with self respect. It's your best shot at getting him to see you like he used to.


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## Anabel (Dec 21, 2012)

Truthfully I can see saying something like that myself and not meaning it to be hurtful, even if I'd been warned and I knew that it was. Reason being, it is an instinctive thing to want to defend your personal space. Even though to one person, the hugs and kisses are purely intended to be affectionate, to the other person it can feel more like someone stepping on your feet, depending on the circumstance. For instance, if one person is giving signals with body language or saying flat out "Please leave me alone right now". 

Pushing someone away who is being sweet to you (and who you love) can feel cruel, so you tend to accept it as much as possible, while still giving signals that it's going against the grain (like the turning into a statue). Eventually though you are going to snap and push them away physically. I've done this, yet I'm very affectionate too most of them time as long as I feel like my personal space is my own. 

Having said that, I don't mean to discount your view on it. Just taking your question alone of, is it purposefully hurtful. It's possible he didn't mean it to be, and it was just a knee-jerk reaction.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Why keep punishing yourself by trying to hug a statue? You know the sort of response you're going to get from him, so why do it? It almost sounds as though he's playing a game with you with his "What are you doing?"

He had an EA, yet you are the one who is doling out the reassuring hugs and being rejected... :scratchhead:

I'd pull a 180 on this guy or arrange for MC. It sounds like he's holding too much of the power in the relationship.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Kathy, I have done just what you say. His feelings are that as time passes, people "settle" into their relationships and the level of affection in all departments eases off. He asks if I know any couples that are still into PDAs and that we see being affectionate after years together? Our main couple friends have never been openly affectionate anyway.

I have often suspected there is a power play going on. There is a lot of, "you can have a hug now", or, "you can have a kiss in a bit if you're good." Promising "normal" affection. Like it's a game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

tobio said:


> I have often suspected there is a power play going on. There is a lot of, "you can have a hug now", or, "you can have a kiss in a bit if you're good." Promising "normal" affection. Like it's a game.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly, and you need to put an end to his game. Don't you find his behaviour a turn off, OP? I wouldn't find what he's doing very masculine, and I don't think I'd even be looking for hugs from him, to be honest.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

tobio said:


> Kathy, I have done just what you say. His feelings are that as time passes, people "settle" into their relationships and the level of affection in all departments eases off. He asks if I know any couples that are still into PDAs and that we see being affectionate after years together? Our main couple friends have never been openly affectionate anyway.
> 
> I have often suspected there is a power play going on. There is a lot of, "you can have a hug now", or, "you can have a kiss in a bit if you're good." Promising "normal" affection. Like it's a game.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


These are normal when someone doesn't value you as a person or as a person they should be with. Problem is his value of you has to come from your actions. It's a spiral in either direction. My honest opinion is that he currently resents you for being weak and allowing him to treat you how he does. He values you how you value yourself.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Exactly, and you need to put an end to his game. Don't you find his behaviour a turn off, OP? I wouldn't find what he's doing very masculine, and I don't think I'd even be looking for hugs from him, to be honest.


At this points it's not about attractive behavior as much as it's about insecurity I think. I think OP has to work on OP which sounds cliche. But what I mean is OP has to realize the goal of self worth otherwise putting her foot down will be seen as insincere. Again, just my opinion.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> At this points it's not about attractive behavior as much as it's about insecurity I think. I think OP has to work on OP which sounds cliche. But what I mean is OP has to realize the goal of self worth otherwise putting her foot down will be seen as insincere. Again, just my opinion.


:iagree:

And every time she attempts to hug him, she's setting herself up for more self-esteem lowering behaviour.

The 180 would have to be backed by working on her self-esteem and handling things from a position of strength. In other words, she has to create a situation where he sits up and takes notice of her of his own volition.


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## Anabel (Dec 21, 2012)

tobio said:


> There is a lot of, "you can have a hug now", or, "you can have a kiss in a bit if you're good." Promising "normal" affection. Like it's a game.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Err..yes that is a different story.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I don't "allow" him to do it. I don't sit by and act like it's okay or don't say anything. Far from it. 

It is the first time in a while he's done it, and I really thought from last time we discussed it, he got it. But his explanation that it was a joke says it wasn't something he has actively considered and thought about. This cropsup a lot, and we often have to revisit things we've previously discussed thst he says he gets but theb
subsequent behaviour shows he didn't get at all.

As of last night, I asked him, he just said it was a joke and he didn't mean to hurt my feelings. He hasn't really explained why he thought something he knew would be hurtful, would be funny.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

tobio said:


> I don't "allow" him to do it. I don't sit by and act like it's okay or don't say anything. Far from it.
> 
> It is the first time in a while he's done it, and I really thought from last time we discussed it, he got it. But his explanation that it was a joke says it wasn't something he has actively considered and thought about. This cropsup a lot, and we often have to revisit things we've previously discussed thst he says he gets but theb
> subsequent behaviour shows he didn't get at all.
> ...


It sounds to me, OP, that he's playing mind games with you and actually getting off on your reaction to them.

When we love somebody, we don't find it funny to do things that that we know will hurt the them.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

"not an affectionate person"? Give me a break. Tobio let me tell you some other things your "husband" is. Insensitive, disprespectful, callous, condescending, arrogant, cold, a jerk, inconsiderate and unfeeling. I am sure I am missing some.

Maybe you can get him a ruler for Christmas so he can make sure you are keeping the appropriate distance from him.

You love him why? If that is just him then you may want to accept it. I perceive that this is a new character (I am using that word loosely) trait. Is that how you want to live the rest of your married life? Let me tell you none of our close friends are overly demostrative with one another in public and I could care less if they were but if my wife did what your husband did and that was the "new her" then she would be looking for a "new me".


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

tobio said:


> Kathy, I have done just what you say. His feelings are that as time passes, people "settle" into their relationships and the level of affection in all departments eases off. He asks if I know any couples that are still into PDAs and that we see being affectionate after years together? Our main couple friends have never been openly affectionate anyway.
> 
> I have often suspected there is a power play going on. There is a lot of, "you can have a hug now", or, "you can have a kiss in a bit if you're good." Promising "normal" affection. Like it's a game.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In that case, stop playing the game. Don't show weakness that he can exploit, even if that weakness is not really weakness at all, but instead is a treasure in itself. Only show him the strong, competent side of you that doesn't need him until he takes the hint. I like the suggestion above about doing the 180.

His "all couples do this" garbage is baloney.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Just spoke with him; he is still saying it was a joke.

He also says in not-so-many words that no, he didn't remember my feelings about him doing that. His actual words were something like, it obviously wasn't at the forefront of his mind..

This actually fits with his behaviour generally so I'm inclined to believe he forgot rather than is playing.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

tobio said:


> Just spoke with him; he is still saying it was a joke.
> 
> He also says in not-so-many words that no, he didn't remember my feelings about him doing that. His actual words were something like, it obviously wasn't at the forefront of his mind..
> 
> *This actually fits with his behaviour generally so I'm inclined to believe he forgot rather than is playing*.


That's worse than playing because he purposely forgot something that is important to YOU.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

"It's a joke" in this case means "You're a joke. Even though you've told me repeatedly, I'm using this to prove how much I don't take you seriously." 

It sounds like he needs to understand that a joke is the kind of thing that makes people laugh. Things that make one person laugh and one person cry are NOT jokes. They are passive-aggressive means to hurt someone.

ETA: "From now on, make SURE it's at the front of your mind that I want affection, because otherwise I will see your reaction as a way to tell me that I don't matter. Thanks for this little chat."


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

What were saying is he's being very disrespectful and insensitive when he does this. And him expecting you to believe he forgot is downright insulting to you.

Something else we're saying is that "take up for your self" means this is not an acceptable thing for him to do. That doesn't mean you merely tell him to stop. If the possibility of splitting is not an option then you're screwed. There no other solution when someone doesn't respect you than to be respectable. No repsectable person would allow this. They would say we're done because your a f...ing jerk. Pack your bags and they would mean it.

The goal is to give him no choice but to either be with you and have respect or to be gone. Often it means a short term break up at which point he knows that he deserves it and also respects you more. Then it has the best chance to work it's self out if your willing. If he's happy gone then it was going there anyway so what do you have to lose. Being treated with respect is what you have to gain.


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## endlessgrief (Feb 19, 2012)

Okay, I have read about this happening to tons of people, I have heard about it happening in tons of marriages, and I have experienced it myself in my own marriage. IT IS COMPLETE RUBBISH (to quote my friends from across the pond  ).

When people say "I am not that affectionate" after years of being together I lose my mind because most of us would NOT have married someone who is not affectionate to our own specific needs. It's like a bait and switch. 

My husband has been saying this to me for years, HOWEVER, he was plenty affectionate BEFORE he got in my pants that first time. Couldn't keep his hands to himself actually. Then time goes on, people get comfortable or "settle" and stop trying. It sucks, it's cruel, and selfish.

Why would anyone not want to hug or cuddle? Those are nice things right? Why can't there be affection without a boner? 

I gave up the fight and got a puppy.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

A puppy... LOL! 

Hubz is hard to gauge. I could say he WAS affectionate years ago, because he was. It was one of the things I liked about him. He was always wanting to hold my hand out in public, kiss and cuddle. In retrospect I think maybe it was him wanting to "claim" me as his to other people. He was also like that at home. It was lovely!

It did slow down a LOT. He has said a number of times that couples just don't do that after a while, it wears off, etc. He ALSO talked about people making that effort when they first go out, and when they're settled they don't do it anymore. Basically he was saying he'd got me so why did he need to make that effort anymore?

As it came up, and we talked, he actually did become better for a while after his EA. And on and off whenever we'd talk about it. Trouble is, it appears NOW that his default setting is not affectionate. So it's hard to say if I've been "baited and switched" or not. I think I wanted to believe he'd keep up the effort when he WAS being like that.

Yep the "I forgot" excuse is rubbish  Unfortunately it comes up a lot with things. This is why I'm inclined to believe it. It doesn't make things better. It just demonstrates how important it is to him. We did discuss it last night but he doesn't seem to have any empathy for why it upsets me.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

He does not have to have empathy for you to require good treatment.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

tobio said:


> Just spoke with him; he is still saying it was a joke.
> 
> He also says in not-so-many words that no, he didn't remember my feelings about him doing that. His actual words were something like, it obviously wasn't at the forefront of his mind..
> 
> This actually fits with his behaviour generally so I'm inclined to believe he forgot rather than is playing.


This man does not think very highly of you. Do you want to live like this forever?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Out of interest, OP, is he affectionate when he wants to have sex with you? I can't imagine getting physically intimate with someone who behaved like this out of the bedroom.


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