# 15 years in a sexless marriage (just a rant, I guess)



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

It's been almost 20 years ago that I got married. Life was good. Sex was good. But not long after marriage my physical advances were met with indifference at first, then eventually total dismissal. She just didn't want it. I felt rejected and undesirable and unloved. 

I was miserable but since I'm both an optimist (it will get better soon!) and a wimp (not enough courage to confront her) I let it drag on for years. I felt that I had done something wrong but lacked the balls to ask her what it was that I'd done. All I really knew was that the *one* person in the world who should want to make love to me didn't want to, and there were nights when I'd cry myself to sleep over it. 

We did manage to have sex enough to get pregnant (it only took one try), and that's when the sex stopped. For a year and a half we had no sex. Not even once. She said it was too painful. Eventually it got so she could stand it and we had another kid. Another year and a half of no sex. My self esteem plummeted. 

Finally her pain went away, but still we would go sometimes for months without sex even though I wanted it everyday and she knew it. I became withdrawn. I truly believed she no longer loved me. 

After 9 years I couldn't take it any longer and went to see a marriage counselor. She insisted I bring my wife the 2nd time, and that got a lot of things out in the open. The counselor diagnosed my wife with depression. My wife confessed that she had been suicidal for years. I was elated with the notion that if only we could cure her depression, our sex life would return and I'd be happy again. 

After two years of counseling, heart-to-heart talks, and anti-depressants, my wife was no longer dysfunctional *except* for the fact that she still had no sex drive. She even confessed to me that she could easily live the rest of her life without sex and not even miss it. Nothing the doctors and counselors suggested helped. One counselor even told me that it's normal for a woman to not want sex after the man commits, and acted like it was no big thing. I was shocked, and feelings of betrayal began to surface in me.

A few months later I was diagnosed with depression. 

So much of what I expected from married life has not come true. I pictured a woman whose face would glow with love and pride at the very thought of me. I imagined her wanting to be physically close on a frequent and regular basis. I pictured someone who would want to make love to me as much as I wanted to make love to her. I thought being with her would bring me joy. It hasn't. 

I tried making her feel loved. I spent weeks doing extra chores around the house, helping out more with the kids, hugging and kissing and complementing her everyday. I brought home flowers every Friday night. I engaged her in conversation and listened to her troubles at work. Still no sexual response. We've had sex only 4 times this year. 

My wife has never been abused by anyone. She does not have a history of drug abuse or family problems. She and I both come from happy, middle-class families.

The most difficult thing about our relationship is that she desperately wants to please me but feels she never could. She doesn't want sex and believes there's nothing that's going to change that. I feel that now she's putting me in the position of being the bad guy for hanging so much importance on our sex life. There are other issues in our marriage, but nothing so important to me as this. In general we get along okay. We never fight, but the flip side is that we never go head-over-heels for each other either. 

We've discussed divorce a couple of times over the last couple of years, but for me it all comes down to destroying my children's nuclear family. My wife and I both grew up in stable homes with parents in their 70s that are still happily married. Imagining my kids not being in a cozy, family environment... not being with both parents at the same time, just makes me crazy. I don't know that I could ever do that to my children. I love them dearly and as far as they know Mom & Dad are happy and will love each other forever. How does one explain to elementary school age kids that Mom (or Dad) won't be living with them anymore? It just breaks my heart to even think about it. 

Okay. I've sufficiently vented for a while. I don't know why I even wrote this. To get some fresh perspective I guess, if you've got any input. 

--- Nine-E


----------



## dcrim (Oct 1, 2008)

Dang, dude! 

if she doesn't show any inclination to change or work it out, leave. 

Get custody of the kids. 

Move on. 

Everyone should have love...that which makes life worth living. You're not getting it. 

Sex if a part of love. The mutual giving of each to the other. 

I feel so sorry for you. 

I didn't last that long -- I separated and eventually got a divorce (after almost 20 years of marriage).


----------



## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

I guess you have to decide if sex is a deal breaker for you. If it is then leave. It seems she only wanted sex when she wanted kids and make sure once would do it. She controls this situation and there is no respite here. Do you want the rest of your life like this?

draconis


----------



## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

wow i feel for you. and i cringe a little wondering if this wont be my story in 20 yrs.

sounds like you have tried just about everything. i was looking in to natural remedies to lower my libido for awhile. im not thinking you should do that, but i was wondering if there isnt something out there to increase her's. do you think she'd be willing to take something? does she exercise? 

i admire you for wanting to stay together for your kids. i know most people say to bolt, but i think its admirable that you stay together for your kids. i know there is some harm in it to them because of the depression, but i think divorce is much harder on kids.

you mentioned she had pain when having sex. that sounds like it might be a bigger deal then you think. even reading that i cringed. if i had bad pain down there i think even my sex drive would evaporate.


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Nine-E

If you read my posts 16 and 18 on MEM's thread, it gives a viewpoint. You can decide if you are on board with that viewpoint or not.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/2527-still-no-intimacy.html

You said you don't argue much and that you are a wimp! What you have been suffering is basically abuse, I could actually prove that to you but it would depress you even more. The kicker is that you have almost begged for this abuse on a plate by training your wife to be lazy with you, and to never consider your feelings.

You could easily improve the situation, but first you need to get 2 things straight in your mind, or it will never work.

1) Sex is a non optional part of a normal marriage.
2) People who say it declines in marriage are correct, but only because many marriages are sub-optimal. Just because it happens a lot does not make it good.
3)You need to learn to love yourself, and realize that you deserve the gift of sex. You are treating everyone as if they are better than you or more important.
4)Your wife has issues with sex, and may never get to enjoy it, but she could provide you with some if she wanted. The reason she does not enjoy it is that it brings up problems for her that she refuses to deal with - even though she would feel better. She is neither willing to make that "sacrifice" for you or for her.

Yet you have sacrificed your whole joy for her, unrewarded.


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Thanks everyone. I knew you would all be tough on me. I knew you would tell it like it is. I'm not sure I like it, but more than anything I appreciate your honesty. Especially MarkTwain. Wow you really hit home with that one. 

My wife has told me over and over that she really really wishes she had a sex drive. She really does want a sex life. She simply has no physical response at all. I believe her. She's *never *been one to lie about anything. 

And that's what makes it so hard. She wants us to stay together. She wants a sexual marriage, but it's just not happening. And now I feel the ball is in my court. Do I end my marriage for sex? 

Before I met her (I was 26 at the time), I hadn't had sex for 4 years because I hate dating, I'm no better than average looking, and most women find me boring unless they can get me to open up. So I leave my wife for a sex life, and who knows how long it will be before that happens? Years? Would I have been better off staying married?

I just don't know. 

I'll ask her if she'd be willing to try meds or herbs. She'd probably give it a shot. 

Again, thanks to all of you for the shot in the arm. 

---- Nine-E


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

*Nine-E
*

Stay around friend, we were just getting to know you. I'm full of ideas if you want some...


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Ideas are good.

Fire away. I'm all ears.

----- Nine-E


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Nine-E

You can easily improve things, but first I will have to ask you a lot of questions...

1)How good are you at sexual technique? How much have you read?
2)Were you ever able to make her cum? how?
3)Has she ever enjoyed sex? If so, give the situation and some detail.
4)How good a shape are you in etc.

Sorry for the above, but I have a checklist that I give people, just to make sure we are on the same page.


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Okay, wow. Here goes...

1)How good are you at sexual technique? How much have you read?

Well, jeez. I don't know how good I am. I've only been with two women in my life. One was my girlfriend before I met my wife. The other, of course, was my wife. Neither complained about technique. I am willing to do just about anything in bed. I'm way more adventurous than she is. In my teens and twenties I devoured things like Penthouse Forum where people write in and describe sexual encounters in detail. I've paged through sexual handbooks. When I did try new things with her she would act like she really liked it, but then next time she seemed to just let it happen until I moved on to something else. 

2)Were you ever able to make her cum? how?

How can a man really ever know? Women fake it for reasons that just don't make sense to me. I gave up ever trying figure out how to make a woman cum. Neither woman I've been with has ever put any importance on it. Do I want her to cum? Of course! But if she isn't getting what she needs it's up to her to tell me what and how, and I'll be happy to do it. As long as it doesn't involve feces or pain. 

BTW, I LOVE giving a woman head. I LOVE experimenting down there with all kinds of swirls and pressures and sliding and all that wonderful stuff. But does my wife even care? No. Last time I did it for her was a couple of years ago while she was on the phone, and it elicited zero response. When she finally hung up she made no mention of it. 

3)Has she ever enjoyed sex? If so, give the situation and some detail.

Early in the relationship, yes. Seemed like all I had to do was walk through the door and she would be all over me. We could be sitting on the couch watching TV and just out of the blue she would unzip my pants and go to town. We were having sex several times a week. I was in heaven. I'd found someone who wanted sex as much as I did!

Then she slowly cooled off. As far as I could tell I was still the same person, behaving the same way, but she just started saying "No". And my resulting loss of self esteem only made it worse. 

Here's an example that I fondly remember. We were driving home on the freeway from a long day out. She started giving me driving directions. "Get off at this exit", "turn right", "pull in here". It was a small park in the woods. It was a cool fall day. Overcast. She had a weird grin on her face. 

She led me by the hand down a trail amongst the trees and then stopped. Right there in the middle of the trail she began to undress me. I looked around. Nobody else here. I don't get turned on by the thought of getting caught, so I led her just a few feet off the trail behind a large fir tree. There was a nice bed of wet leaves to lay on. She ripped off my pants, then her pants, laid me down and rode me. It was a quickie, but we both agreed that it was a load of fun. Never happened again.

4)How good a shape are you in etc.

Oh boy. Well, I'm 5'9" and weigh 178 lbs. A little bit of a belly. I've been trying to improve my diet and exercise for years but I get no help from her. She's not athletic at all and a bit overweight but not noticeably fat. She loves to eat and constantly brings home evil food that makes it really hard for me to resist. I've gained over 20 pounds since the beginning of the year as I just stopped caring anymore. However, I've recently got back on the exercise routine to try and get back to a healthier weight.

I don't smoke or abuse drugs. I do have a drink or two with my wife on the weekends. 

But let me say this. In one of our many heart-to-heart talks, she said to me that she does not find me physically revolting. She said my appearance is not responsible for her lack of desire. She doesn't know what the reason is. 

----- Nine-E


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Nine-E

Very good answers by the way, we are going to have fun with this. 

I'm on the verge of drastically cutting down my posts on this site. I have written nearly 600 posts in 3 months. I have a strange affliction. Whenever I read certain peoples threads, I feel as if their story is happening to me. My heart pounds and I break out in a sweat. If I don't get that feeling of connection, I don't bother to chime in. I don't watch much TV because I get the same effect. If I watch an action movie, it's all happening to me! So being here has drained me, even though I have honestly loved every minute of it. I was once shown huge compassion by someone when I needed help, so I feel I have a debt to repay...

So I am only going to go on if you are willing to put the effort in. Your self esteem is on the floor. This is actually good news from my point of view because it means that simply by working on yourself, you will experience a huge change in your life - beyond your wildest dreams.

So how badly do you want it?


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Beyond my wildest dreams? You're making a big promise, MarkTwain. 

I'm game, though. I have no idea what you're getting me into, but let's dive in and hope its not the shallow end of the pool.

BTW, we start seeing a new marriage counselor this afternoon. My wife is not optimistic after several years with the other one.

---- Nine-E


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Cool.

I think you will find that you just got unlucky with the last one. Any counsellor who says sex should decline after marriage wants their licence revoking. 

I am going to take my time and think up some more questions for you. I'm afraid you will very much be jumping in at the deep end  In the mean time, what you need to work on with the therapist is you self worth and self image. If they don't spot that right away, I would walk straight out and save your money.


----------



## justean (May 28, 2008)

all i can say is, i get scared at the thought of my sex life declining. 
im much to young for it to stop, im energetic and fun and love sex. 
thats why i think its ashame when situations like yours arise and i see is as unfair. 
im going out on a limb here, but i actually agree with something that draconis said - the bit about the sex for kids.
i have actually heard of this from a bloke i met, (our farrier).
we were talking about sex and women and he said when the blokes whom he knew had girlfriends, the women did loads of sexual stuff and practically filled their stockings with the best goodies. i mean in the sexual sense. sex was fab - his comment. but most of them noticed that after marriage, sex went virtually downhill and he pointed it to the fact that the women had there men and had their kids and from what he said , most divorced or had affairs.


----------



## askpuss (Oct 10, 2008)

Nine-E, 

From the female perspective I might be able to give you a little bit of what is going on in your wife's head and have a few suggestions for you. 

I can tell you right now, after the birth of my second child I went through severe postpartum depression. I was suicidal, no sex drive, and didn't want anything to do with life. It took close to 2 years to even start to feel better (hormones can cause a big problem for women!) I had low self esteem, felt gross, and felt like my husband wouldn't want me at all, even though he did. Our sex life dwindled after that, and now after having enough rejection back then he still refuses to initiate sex, though he was never one to push for it before that. 

A simple fact, anti-depressants kill sex drive. If she is still on them she should look at individual counseling for herself and a plan to ween off the use of them. Anti-depressants should not be used long term, they are a band-aid to cure a gaping wound. Depression is not caused by a chemical imbalance, but postpartum depression (starting from hormonal fluctuations) can cause the brain to stay in the chemical state of depression, but the underlying emotions and thoughts have to be fixed, not with drugs, but through examination and change of the habits. 

There are only a few causes to have no sex drive, medical conditions and psycho-drugs, emotional, or lack of attraction for the person. If her attraction to you is not the problem (or even if it was if she loved you she would want to help you become more attractive to her.) Then her problem is probably a combo of the first two reasons. 

At some point in your relationship she was a sex kitten, that drive does not disappear, it is still in her. Though having children may have shifted her hormones causing the first problem, if it started before kids, it could have been any number of self esteem issues or emotional problems. 

I have a couple of suggestions for you to try out with her to maybe help the situation. First encourage her to get off the anti-depressants if she is still on them and seek the proper individual counseling. 

Second buy these books, The proper care and feeding of husbands by Dr. Laura Schlessinger, and her Proper care and feeding of Marriage (this one both of you should read together.) And Dr.William Glasser's Choice Theory, Getting together and Staying together, and Eight Lessons for a Happier Marriage. All of these can be found on Amazon.com rather cheaply, so you don't have to spend a fortune in books. 

Now, after you get these books, present her with them one at a time, start with Choice theory if you can get it, then the Dr.Laura books, then the other Glasser books. ALso read them yourself so that you can discuss them. Make it clear to her that you want her to read them so that you can have a happier marriage together, for the both of you. Even if she claims to be happy, feel free to express that you are not, though you want to be because you love her. 

Things to start doing in the mean time. Forget about sex for a while. Don't pressure her, don't make comments, don't even bring it up. Relieve yourself as need be. But you aren't going to stop being sensual with her. Get some scented massage oil and give her a full body massage without any sexual advances, but do feel free to massage her private parts, but do it in a way that shows you are just relaxing her not trying to have sex with her (this means don't focus too much on those parts, but just enough to see that it gives her a little bit of excitement.) 

***Edit: I forgot, if you don't know how to give a good massage look for websites or books to help you out on this subject. Nothing is worse than a bad massage with your husbands grabby pinchy fingers. If you can't get the hang of manual massage, below I suggested getting a vibrator for that purpose.***

Touch her often, hug and kiss her. Grab her out of the blue and really plant a long kiss on her lips, then tell her you love her while looking directly in her eyes. Be sure not to ask for sex or hint about wanting it. The key to this is to seduce her into wanting it. Trust me, her desire is buried in there somewhere. 

Be playful. Tickle, nuzzle, cuddle, hold hands, and flirt like you were on a third date. Tell her how hot you think she looks, don't say beautiful, because she will probably scoff at you, say hot, sexy, or just go "DAMNNNN" when she walks in a room, and make sure you obviously look her up and down. 

Find a subject that you both feel passionate about but that you stand on different ends of the subject, where you might have a disagreement. Don't turn it into a name calling argument, or anything like that, but just spark the passion of arguing your case for why you believe the way you do. This can cause passion in the relationship when she sees that you are not a big wuss but a man who can argue his point or concede when proven wrong. Do manly things. Let her see you working out, shirtless, like doing sit-ups, push-ups or whatever. Don't indulge in her guilty pleasures she brings homes to eat. Show her that you are making yourself look better...but don't tell her why, let her think about it and maybe get a little jealous thinking you might be getting in shape for another woman. Jealousy, while not the best of emotions, can often spark a woman to fight for her man. Don't deny or confirm anything if she brings up questions as to why you are getting into shape, just say it is for yourself. 

Start bring the fun back into the relationship. Dance around the house to some fun music, sing badly and laugh about it. Smile often. It is amazing how contagious fun and happiness can be even if you are faking it at first. 

A side point to a response you gave about sex with your wife. There are obvious ways to know if a woman is actually orgasming. First off it sounds different than fake ones, the real ones have uncontrollable moans, biting of pillows or lips. A woman will clench her thighs involuntarily during an orgasm. Her vaginal spasms are stronger than anything she can voluntarily produce. And usually there is an increase in wetness when she has orgasmed. 

Oh, back to the massage idea, you can also purchase a personal massager, you know the things that are sold as back massagers but are actually vibrators for women! Use one of those on her, while massaging her naked, and allow it to venture up into her pelvic region. See if she has any involuntary reactions, like a face, a moan, or a twitching of her legs. This is a good sign if you do get any of these things, even if she pitches some objections to you doing it verbally, because that means all her equipment is working properly down there. It will mean she is capable of being turned on physically and that her block is mental. 

One of the things I liked about Dr.Laura's book on husbands, was telling women to sleep with their men even if they didn't "feel like it" because once we get started, especially if the man can incite some reactions in us physically, we are usually in the mood and thus no longer not feel like it. 

My guess is, like most women, the having of the sex just isn't overly important to her, but she has to not be selfish or self absorbed, because it is important to you, and to keep a marriage happy and healthy a couple needs to engage in regular sexual relations. 

I am going to be posting up some articles on my site pertaining to these topics here over the next week or so, so check them out if you would like. And if you would like to chat more you can email me from my site as well, or visit my forum. 

Puss


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Nine-E

Tell us what happened at counseling.


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Puss,

Sitting here at work reading your response... I almost burst into tears. There were indeed times when when I would put on some music and dance around the house like a fool, and she'd laughingly exclaim "Oh gawd, he's dancing again!" Those were the days. <sigh>

I live to be playful, but she's just so reserved in that regard that over the years I've been beaten down to the point where I just don't act like that anymore. I desperately, _deeply _want to have the kind of goofiness you describe back in my life. So much that as I write this my eyes are tearing up and I have a lump in my throat and I can't even think straight. 

...

Okay. I had to step away from my office for while, but I'm back. While reading your message something in me snapped, bringing to the surface certain emotions and memories that welled up in me something fierce. I walked out to my car, curled up in the back seat and cried for half an hour. 

While I laid there a stream of thoughts rushed through my head:

_Where is that quietly self-assured man that was me 20 years ago?_
_Can we ever get back to the way we used to be?_
_How did I get myself into this mess?_
_This is a no-win situation._

...and on and on and on.

So okay. I've pretty much pulled myself together. Let's talk about the rest of your message. I'm not sure if my wife is still on anti-depressants or not. She had a hard time initially with the first couple of drugs, and finally settled on one with minimal side effects. But she may have gone off them. I'll ask. 

As for the books, well, we've had so many books thrown at us it's not even funny anymore. Plus she has zero respect for Dr. Laura. I think I'll look into the Glasser books, though, out of curiosity. 

Your suggestion to not pressure for sex is kind of ironic. Around the beginning of the year I told her that the pressure was off. I was experiencing a strange lack of sexual functioning and that for her to worry about how often we were having sex was pointless. I told her to just forget about it, and I wasn't being sarcastic or playing reverse psychology on her. I meant it. So here it is October and we've had sex 4 times since then. And I'm a mess. 

Before I met my wife I was a very romantic person. I had a girlfriend who loved everything I did. Little thoughtful things, silly gestures intended to show how much I cared were met with intense appreciation. Those same kinds of things I tried on my wife when we were dating, and she literally _*laughed at me*_. I never tried doing stuff like that again. 

So I'm going to have to slowly ease myself into the tickling, nuzzling, and flirting. She never really appreciated those things in the first place. In fact she doesn't like to kiss. Pecks are okay, but french kissing she simply has no interest in. Of course, I LOVE making out. It's one of life's great joys. Yet another thing missing from my life. 

I've read every word of your post three times, and I think I'll be reading it again soon. So much to think about. 

THANK YOU


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Our counseling session went okay. To quote my wife afterward, "it was the same-old same-old". Same questions as the previous counselors. Same homework such as "Write down five responses to this: I feel most loved when..." 

My wife did confess that she believes that even when we were at our peak in our relationship, the sex wasn't good enough or frequent enough to make me happy. That's not true in for the earliest stages in our relationship. I certainly was happy with our sex life, but eventually (before kids) we fell into a twice a month routine, and no, that wasn't nearly enough to keep me happy. If that's as good as it's going to get, then I don't see how this is going to ever work out. 

One reaction from the counselor did concern me. I described the time I wrote about in a previous entry in this thread when I spent weeks doing extra house work and bringing her flowers and engaging in long thoughtful conversations, etc. with no change in my wife's sex drive. The counselor said something like "You expected a change after only a few weeks?" As if it would take _much _longer to really have an effect. That was upsetting to me. If being treated that way for weeks isn't long enough, how long does it take? Months? Years? 

Cripes. 

It was a quick hour with the new counselor. So much to explain. So much to tell her. We see her again in about 10 days.


----------



## askpuss (Oct 10, 2008)

Nine-E,

I feel bad that I made you cry, though it is probably something you really needed to release (I do believe men need a good cry now and then!) 

I hate to ask this, but is your wife a feminist? 

I personally hate the feminist movement and believe it might possibly be what is wrong in the world today! 

I can't imagine not liking to french kiss...though super sloppy french kisses can be annoying, or funny depending on the mood. 

I get the feeling the reason your wife has no respect for Dr.Laura would be because she doesn't share the views that a wife should be loving and feminine to her husband. You should go to the local library and read parts of Proper care and feeding of husbands and see if that sounds like what you are missing. Because to me it sounds like you are missing exactly what she describes in that book.

Glasser's books are good, the Choice theory describes how every action and feeling we have is a conscious choice made in our minds through our thoughts. His books are the whole reason I dropped out of psychology in college, because I could stand listening to the crap they were preaching. Dr.Laura actually functions on many of his theories, though she doesn't actually credit him. 

You'll probably agree with a statement my husband made, and one I read later in Dr.Laura's books. "Men are simple, we need love, appreciation, and sex to be happy." So plain, so simple, yet most women miss the mark on all those counts. Though somewhere on most men's list is good food too. lol 

After reading what you responded, I don't think it is really anything you do will help your wife be any different. However, you can act independently from her. You said you wondered where your inner goofball went...he is right inside of you, but through ridicule and lack of appreciation he went into retreat. You can bring him back. Ignore your wife's comments and enjoy your inner child's silliness. I am sure your kids will appreciate the lightened mood around the house. 

Stop trying to be what you think your wife wants. Be you. If you were a goofball (I totally relate, I'm a total dork too!) embrace it. Have fun with the kids, be fun and silly, and watch what happens to her. 

Don't have a time frame for seeing change in her. Kind of like what a therapist told you. Just be the way you want to be, make yourself happy without her participation. You can feel free to include her whenever you would like, but if she is going to be a stick in the mud, then she is the only one losing out on fun. 

Fun is one of the essentials Dr.Glasser talks about in his book of our basic needs. I have hobbies I find fun, I have fun with my kids, but often my husband is too tired or stressed to be fun or active with us. This doesn't bother me, in that I have fun without him. Then I'm not the one missing out on the fun, he is through his own choice. 

Life can't be all fun and games, we do have to be responsible adults and parents, but it is nice to have a time everyday to indulge in having fun. 

It is ironic how you mention twice that your wife has trained you like a puppy. First, because of her lack of fun attitude, your inner goof took a sabbatical. And second, in regards to silly little romantic things that you did for a previous girlfriend, your wife laughed at, thus causing you to never do them again, essentially training you to be someone you are not. 

We lose ourselves when we start letting our spouses negativity rule over us like an iron fist. You should take some time to think about all the things your wife has trained you to do that is totally against your nature. You will probably come up with a surprising list. And the sad thing is often we are unhappy with ourselves because we feel like we lost ourself somewhere along the way, when in fact all we did was change our behavior to suit our partners whims and demands. Granted some behavioral changes can be for the best, like picking up after ourselves, learning how to communicate better, sexual experience and behaviors, but from the sounds of it, you haven't had any of those good behavior changes. 

I don't think your situation is exactly no win, but you do have to examine your wifes behavior and all the things that annoy/disrupt you and the relationship. Does she not act like a wife is supposed to? Does she show you no appreciation for the work you do do for the family and the relationship? Does she show you love (not just sex, but love and intimacy on an emotional level)? Is she a support system for you and the family and does she rely on you as a support system? How open is she with out about her thoughts, her hopes, her dreams and fears? And how open is she to hearing yours? 

Being a wife and mother is often a thankless job, but it is our husbands jobs to be there to appreciate us and vice versa. Because a husband's job is often just as thankless as ours. I know I have no desire to be up on the roof cleaning the gutters, but I am darn sure to show my hubby that I appreciated that he did that dirty job (usually paid in neck and foot rubs among other things..heh) But he also does the same for me when I cook a great meal and we all sit down to eat, he does the dishes and lets me work on my website and then makes some tea and sits with me while I work and we discuss things. 

Being "in love" something that many people claim to fall out of, isn't about a feeling, it is about a culmination of many small gestures and behaviors. We don't fall in or out of love, we act like we are in love or not. 

I really don't think sex is your whole problem, but just a tip of the ice berg. There are many underlying problems here with her behavior, and possibly yours if we were to hear both sides of it, since there are always two sides to the story. But what your wife doesn't seem to understand, is that as a wife, she basically holds the keys to your happiness. We can either use our powers for good, or we can neglect our husbands and make their lives utterly miserable. 

If you want happiness you either have to take control back from your wife and create your own happiness, or she needs to learn how to not be a self absorbed, selfish woman and use her wifely powers for good. To make a relationship work we both have to be just a little bit selfish and a whole lot of selfLESS. Glasser talks about giving to each other as if the other were giving the same amount, as does Dr.Laura. If we both give as if we were receiving, then we would both be getting more than enough of what we need. 

I still find it mildly amusing as I am typing this, that your wife has zero respect for Dr.Laura. I don't agree with her on everything, but I respect the woman for her insight into how we women act and men too. The fact that Dr.L says a wife should have sex with her husband whether she "feels like it or not" is just awesome. Because I know there have been times if asked before hand I would have said I didn't feel like it, but once in the middle of getting started I totally felt like it. There is nothing more rewarding after a long stressful day than a great orgasm. 


On the reply you had about your counselor, and about the story you told. How much for chores do you normally do? This isn't overly important, but just out of curiosity. I swear if my husband did even a few extra chores I would be all over him like white on rice. Not that I refuse him ever. But I might actually drag him to a room lock the door and have my way with him right then and there just out of sheer shock that he did extra! lol My hubby is relegated to the manly chores, mowing, gutter cleaning, some minor home repairs...the occasional dish washing (by hand.) But if he washed and folded his own laundry, took out the trash, or mopped, I might fall over and kiss his feet. 

I would have asked the counselor how long is it expected before something changes? Not just sex drive, but general attitude...cause I think her attitude is what is getting in the way of her sex drive. If she walks around all day in a cranky, cantankerous mood and a stick up her hind end, she can't possibly want sex. Like I said above, don't count on a time frame, but I would have been curious to see what the counselor would have said to that. The sad thing about most traditional counselors is that THEY are the ones not in a hurry to make things better, because the longer they drag it out, the more they get paid. You might want to check out Glasser's website and see if there are any Choice Theory therapist in your area. 

We'll have to talk more, gotta get kids from the bus. 

Puss


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

*Nine-E
*

I have rushed this a bit, you will have to use your imagination, and ask for clarification if anything is not clear.

My thoughts are that in your particular case, marriage counseling is not right. If I could have the world just the way I wanted it, I would have you on counseling for self image, and your wife would be going to a psycho-sexual therapist.

Part of marriage counseling is to find out what is lacking. In your case we know that already. You are not getting your sexual needs met. End of story. The fact that you have been so complacent about it points to a mixture of ignorance, low expectation, and bad advice.

If your counselor is not drumming into your wife's head that you need positive affirmation from physical contact as well as SEX itself - you should refuse to go.

Your wife's case is more complex. I suspect that she has a normal sex drive physically speaking, but she has developed an aversion to letting go in your presence. This is possibly because she feels that as her husband you know her too well - a bit like trying to make love in front of her father. If I met her, I would have the truth out of her within 15 minutes, but it's impossible to tell second hand through you. The other possibility is that she has been having an affair right under your nose - but you say she never lies. However I am told that 50% of sexless marriages where the wife does not want sex involve her cheating. I feel that figure is a little high, but it ain't zero, that's for sure.

Because you have a slightly retiring personality, you were not able to "bounce" your wife out of her moods when they first started, and so you allowed her to manipulate you any way she pleased. Now after 15 years, she has gotten entrenched.

You mentioned that your sexual functioning was not too good this year. Man, you are blind! What is happening to you is that you are loosing all confidence, your self image is crumbling in front of your face. You can't expect to get aroused easily after years of abuse from your wife.

Imagine it was food, not sex. Just because she has found a way never to eat, does not mean she has the right to put you on a starvation diet.

You need to get angry first - with yourself, for letting your wife destroy you. Then when you have calmed down, you can do something.

I am going to map out some choices, but first I want to return to something you said earlier:



Nine-E said:


> We've discussed divorce a couple of times over the last couple of years, but for me it all comes down to destroying my children's nuclear family. My wife and I both grew up in stable homes with parents in their 70s that are still happily married. Imagining my kids not being in a cozy, family environment... not being with both parents at the same time, just makes me crazy. I don't know that I could ever do that to my children. I love them dearly and as far as they know Mom & Dad are happy and will love each other forever. How does one explain to elementary school age kids that Mom (or Dad) won't be living with them anymore? It just breaks my heart to even think about it.


Despite the fact that the two of you had these ideal homes, you have created a crap marriage. My wife and I had terrible backgrounds, but we are in love after 19 years. What will it profit your kids to see you turn into a shadow of your former self? People with low self esteem always find an excuse to crucify themselves. But it never stands up to external scrutiny.

OK, here is what I suggest. You can read my posts on other threads to get more of a flavor of what I am talking about.

*The easy way*
You said that your wife says she would like to have a normal sex life. OK. Assuming that she is not just telling you what you want to hear, this is what you could do. Get her to go on the special fish-oil diet on the link that follows. I have spent a lot of time corresponding with the author. You have to take quite a lot, and it takes two weeks to kick in, but women on it develop a craving for penetration. Her forum Forums - The Orgasmic Diet
Her book is Amazon.com: The Orgasmic Diet: A Revolutionary Plan to Lift Your Libido and Bring You to Orgasm: Marrena Lindberg: Books

She told me that, the whole diet is important, but the main thing is the high-potency fish oil. It needs to be high in EPA and DHA. If you buy say a 1000mg capsule, then look at the EPA and DHA content per capsule, and the should add up to at least 500mg. In other words half. This stuff works. I would not tell you about it if was a load of rubbish.

Your wife is probably perfectly normal physically, she is simply suppressing her desire. What the fish oil does is make the drive so strong, that it can't be missed.

I really liked askpuss's posts, but I have to disagree about the pressure thing. You have waited 15 years. Yes it's time for DEMANDS! But lay on plenty of massages if she will accept them.

Tell her what I said about not wanting to loose control in front of you and then...
Get her to agree to start having sex with you twice per week. OK, you could build up from once per week. NO LESS. Timetable it, and don't take excuses. Part of the deal has to be that she must do her best to enjoy it. This may mean she has to read a few sexy books. You will need to think about contraception. A woman is at her most horny during ovulation - so watch out.

*The hard way*
If her assertion that she want's a normal sex life turns out to be hollow, decide on a method and a timetable for exiting your marriage, and seeking a new wife.

Again, quoting you resistance to this:



Nine-E said:


> Before I met her (I was 26 at the time), I hadn't had sex for 4 years because I hate dating, I'm no better than average looking, and most women find me boring unless they can get me to open up. So I leave my wife for a sex life, and who knows how long it will be before that happens? Years? Would I have been better off staying married?


There are church halls all over the world full of average looking single people who are often attracted to each other, but too shy to ask each other out for coffee.

Even average people, when they love themselves, can look good, and can buy cloths that accentuate their best features.


*The kicker*
Even if you stay and do method #1, if you are able to realize that you are free to leave your marriage at any moment, you will gain power. You will feel younger. And your wife will sense it. You are already free, your prison is in your head.

Any questions?


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

As for your own sexual response, that is the easy bit. I had your problem once and found a drugless cure, but more on that story another time.


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Oh, I nearly forgot. Your story below was beautiful. Print this out for her, and tell her that it was one of the happiest days of your life. Do that before you talk to her about the other stuff I mentioned.



Nine-E said:


> Here's an example that I fondly remember. We were driving home on the freeway from a long day out. She started giving me driving directions. "Get off at this exit", "turn right", "pull in here". It was a small park in the woods. It was a cool fall day. Overcast. She had a weird grin on her face.
> 
> She led me by the hand down a trail amongst the trees and then stopped. Right there in the middle of the trail she began to undress me. I looked around. Nobody else here. I don't get turned on by the thought of getting caught, so I led her just a few feet off the trail behind a large fir tree. There was a nice bed of wet leaves to lay on. She ripped off my pants, then her pants, laid me down and rode me. It was a quickie, but we both agreed that it was a load of fun. Never happened again.


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

*Puss*,

Crying actually felt kind of good. Or "right". No worries.

I don't know if feminist is the right word. I tend to think of her as enlightened or maybe modern. She has a very strong, outspoken personality and rightly believes that she is as good as any man. She's more androgynous than most women. In fact, I like to say that my wife is "not women", in the sense that we might generalize "women do..." such-and-such or "women are..." so-and-so. She doesn't fit the stereotype. Most of her friends are men.

You said: 


> "Ignore your wife's comments and enjoy your inner child's silliness."
> " Stop trying to be what you think your wife wants. Be you."
> "It is ironic how you mention twice that your wife has trained you like a puppy."
> "We lose ourselves when we start letting our spouses negativity rule over us like an iron fist. You should take some time to think about all the things your wife has trained you to do that is totally against your nature."


Wow. It amazes me how anonymous strangers such as you and MT can perfectly hit the nail on the head like this! It's like a light bulb just came on. Of course I knew in the back of my mind this was happening, but I just let it go without really thinking about changing it. 

But my problem (one of many!) is that I'm _extremely _sensitive to how others respond to me. If I detect a negative reaction it can have a permanent effect on my behavior. I'll dwell on it and vow never to repeat the mistake because I don't want to ever feel that way again. A minor squabble with a complete stranger can cause me to go nearly sleepless for three nights as I replay it in my head. One occurred fairly recently and my sleep and well-being was disrupted for two weeks. And I still remember the very first time I asked a girl out on a date, and her response was "Are you sick! NO!" It was someone I'd had a crush on for years, and I was utterly devastated. I went all through high school only going on two dates because of the terror I felt about asking a girl out. 

Jeez. I can really get off track sometimes.

In response to this:



> Does she not act like a wife is supposed to? Does she show you no appreciation for the work you do do for the family and the relationship? Does she show you love (not just sex, but love and intimacy on an emotional level)? Is she a support system for you and the family and does she rely on you as a support system? How open is she with out about her thoughts, her hopes, her dreams and fears? And how open is she to hearing yours?


Showing love is not her strong suit. She's not one to give out spontaneous hugs or pats on the back. We both have problems communicating our concerns unsolicited. We tend to keep things to ourselves rather than burden the other with our thoughts. Especially when it comes to relationship things. And when a counselor does get us to communicate we are both happy to listen to the other and appreciate the honesty. We just find it so difficult initially to start up the conversation. For me, personally, it's hard because so many things I'd say would sound like a complaint. Our previous counselor said to me "So what? Complain! Talk about it!", and I know she's right. On several occasions we did talk on a regular basis, but eventually the talks got less frequent until we stopped them altogether. We just keep drifting to the same low point by default. I don't know why. 



> There is nothing more rewarding after a long stressful day than a great orgasm.


Nothing said has ever been more true. 

You asked about chores. This is something that came up in counseling last night. First, she was asked what makes her happy, and her response was "getting things done". She said that if she's sitting there "seething with anger" because I haven't done whatever she thinks I should have done around the house, she goes and mows the lawn, cleans the bathroom, and vacuums several rooms of the house. Then her mood has improved and she's not angry anymore _because chores are done_. 

Of course I do chores. Not all the time but pretty often. I clean the kitchen and take out the trash. I vacuum. I fold laundry. I cook dinner when I can (I work full time and she does not). I used to mow the lawn until she took it over, even though our counselor told her to let me do it so that I feel like I'm contributing something of value to the family. 

Now another light bulb has just come on. This relates back to your question about how she shows her love. She does things for people. She makes cute crafty things, or fixes things, bakes pies, sews clothes, or even runs errands for people, and that is how she shows appreciation for someone. The light bulb came on when I just now realized that _that _must be how she wants to be appreciated herself. And that is something I can act on. 

See, from my point of view, I feel valued when she wants to make love to me. So _me _wanting to make love to _her _ought to be the ultimate compliment, right? Well, I guess not. We value different things. 

But still I'm left with this: How many hours of chores do I need to do each day, and for how many days, before she decides I've earned some lovin'? Obviously several weeks worth was not enough. 

I hate this whole "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" thing. In my mind, it shouldn't be a freaking business relationship. Doesn't she love me? Doesn't that make her want to make love to me? Why isn't that enough? It used to be, back in the day. Just being together was all it took for her to want to have sex. Now it's eroded to the point where I have to _earn _sex? Why did she change? Damn, that's depressing. 

I'm going to respond to MT in a separate post.


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

*MT*,

Lets start with my sexual response. It's not that I don't physically respond. It's more like recovery time. One orgasm and my reproductive system feels stressed for two days. I'm 45 years old. Compare that to me at, say, 22. I was having 2 orgasms a day, every day. I could comfortably orgasm 14 times a week, easy. Now it's about twice a week. More than that and things get uncomfortable down there. This has been a slow downward slope over the years until about 18 months ago, when it dropped off considerably (admittedly this is when I was diagnosed with depression). My doctor has checked me out and other than a slightly enlarged prostate nothing's wrong. She said, in so many words, that as long as I can get it up I don't have a problem.

But there _is _a problem, and it's that my _desire _is still what it was when I was 22. I walk around all day horny as hell, but I know if I satisfy myself it'll stress my system. It's very frustrating. 

You talked about me getting out of my marriage and how it would affect my kids. My wife had a similar point just the other night. She questioned the notion that staying together but still being unhappy was better for the kids in the long run. I thought that was a very perceptive thing to ask.

My wife is not one to give in to demands. She's a very tough woman, an if I demanded anything from her I expect she'd tell me to go screw myself. 

The fish oil idea is interesting, although I've never been one for alternative treatments for anything. I'm going to have to do more research before I bring that up. 

Contraception is a non-issue. She's had her tubes tied.

Printing out the sex in the woods for her is a good idea. Things are so bad between us right now, I'm not sure this is a good time. Maybe that's just timid ol' me talking, though. 



> You are already free, your prison is in your head.


Yeah. I understand. But it's tough. I've been non-confrontational all my life. It's not an easy change.

One last thing. I visit this forum while at work. I don't know how much opportunity I'll have over the weekend to respond to further posts if I want to keep them private. I'll definitely read them, but it may be as late as Monday before I can write anything of length here.


----------



## askpuss (Oct 10, 2008)

Nine-E said:


> I don't know if feminist is the right word. I tend to think of her as enlightened or maybe modern. She has a very strong, outspoken personality and rightly believes that she is as good as any man. She's more androgynous than most women. In fact, I like to say that my wife is "not women", in the sense that we might generalize "women do..." such-and-such or "women are..." so-and-so. She doesn't fit the stereotype. Most of her friends are men.


Wow... It is kind of scary how much you and your wife are similar to me and my hubby. I'm a stay at home mom, who works for myself in several different ventures, web-design is my newest, but also writing and as a jewelry designer. Most of the time I would describe myself as a guy with boobs. I'm definitely not like most high maintenance women, and I have the libido of a man. I'm extremely out-going and can make friends with just about anyone despite opposing belief systems or values. 

I would classify myself as having a lot of self confidence, not cocky though. I'm able to admit being wrong, suck up my pride and apologize even when I didn't feel I was in the wrong, incredibly analytical, and intelligent. Because of these things I don't give a rat's behind what people think of me, how I behave, or what I choose to do. Something I noticed you say below: 



> But my problem (one of many!) is that I'm _extremely _sensitive to how others respond to me. If I detect a negative reaction it can have a permanent effect on my behavior. I'll dwell on it and vow never to repeat the mistake because I don't want to ever feel that way again. A minor squabble with a complete stranger can cause me to go nearly sleepless for three nights as I replay it in my head.


I'm not at all like that now...but just five years ago I was. My hubby on the other hand, while he has some self confidence, he is much like you are. One put down and he could be devastated for a month or permanently. My husband does almost the exact same thing you do, dwelling on something in his head (he tends to be kind of quiet, and always in his head.) He has an extremely hard time talking about "us" and the relationship, and I have to almost drag it out of him, which often when I want a discussion it turns into a lecture, 'cause he doesn't have any input. 

The reason I changed from worrying what people thought about me was because of Glasser's books, Reality Therapy and Choice Theory. I was taking psychology classes, mostly to fix myself...lol...I stumbled upon his books while doing research for a paper. The fact that I have a choice in everything, from the way I react to something, to the way I think about something, to the way I change my behavior, struck me as a freedom that I never thought I had. I used to just passively sit back and let things happen to me, all the while thinking what I thought, felt, and behaved like was dictated by the world around me. I changed the way I processed the information coming in, and I realized I had complete control over one thing in life, ME. It changed my world. I rarely get stressed out. I rarely get angry (unless justified). I rarely feel bad. Aside from normal things like death in the family, sad movies, those kinds of things I'm a total baby and ball my eyes out. Emotions are a great experience, but they can be controlled and either allowed or not allowed. 




> Showing love is not her strong suit. She's not one to give out spontaneous hugs or pats on the back. We both have problems communicating our concerns unsolicited. We tend to keep things to ourselves rather than burden the other with our thoughts. Especially when it comes to relationship things. We just keep drifting to the same low point by default. I don't know why.


I know why. But I'll tell you in a minute. 




> ...she was asked what makes her happy, and her response was *"getting things done".* She said that if she's sitting there *"seething with anger*" because I haven't done whatever she thinks I should have done around the house, she goes and mows the lawn, cleans the bathroom, and vacuums several rooms of the house. Then her mood has improved and she's not angry anymore _because chores are done_.


This is very telling about your wife. Getting things done doesn't make anyone happy. She is full of crap right there. Getting things done is a way to escape dealing with emotions. Do you know what I do when I am mad, I clean. I hate cleaning. Doing chores has to be the least fun thing in the world! We all know it. But much like homework or a job or paying bills, it HAS to be done. 

She isn't angry anymore not because she did the chores, but because she took her mind off the things she was really angry at and redirected them at you for not doing the chores she doesn't want to do. 

She's a stay at home mom I gather, same as me. Chores are our job. Let me give you this example to illustrate my point.

In the course of a summer month, I have the kids home all day, they produce three times the amount of mess made during the school year. My irritation level rises when I have mounting laundry, dishes, food to prepare, extra shopping, and kids dragging crap in on their shoes all day. Because this irritation has no where to really be directed, I will often direct it at the one person I love, my hubby. I can zero in on a pair of socks (not like those are a big deal) or how there is tooth paste slathered to the sink (his doing) and then I start getting mad at him for not cleaning things up after himself. 

During the course of the summer, my hubby (who works 50+ hours a week) will on his days off mow the lawn every other week (if I want it done more I do it myself.) He will vacuum from time to time, but not regularly. He might prepare a meal once a month, maybe twice. And he will do dishes maybe 3 times in a month after I prepare dinner. 

Now, when I am in an irritated mood, it is easy to forget that he is working 50+ hours a week outside the home, and just see the things not done in the home and be angry with him. However, I stop for a minute and think back to before we were married when we were dating and he still lived with his parents, his room was a mess! He doesn't clean, and the amount that he does do should be appreciated because it is an improvement over what he was used to. The underlying irritation has nothing to do with my husband and his lack of "getting things done." It has to do with my desire to not be doing the chores and to be doing other things that would be fun or make me happy. This is often hard to decipher out of our heads when we are in the midst of an angry rant going on in our thoughts. 

One thing I have learned is to take a step back from what I am thinking, like this for example:
_Oh my god, he has done such and such
and this is still sitting here. What a good 
for nothing lazy piece of crap!_
Now that might seem harsh, but that has run though my mind from time to time. When I start doing this I stop, think about what I was thinking, and take a step back. Is that how I really feel? No. Why am I getting so angry over a pair of socks? Because it isn't that he didn't pick them up, it is that I am having to clean. 

I am anal when it comes to organizing and cleaning. I would rather not have someone do something than to not do it my way. Neurotic I know. So over the years of nit picking over what my husband cleaned (which when we first moved in together he used to do much more than he does now) I trained him (much the way your wife has trained you) to not clean. I actually just realized this over the last month while I was purging the house of clutter and painting. I was getting irritated that he wasn't helping me paint, but he hates painting (I don't mind it) and he wasn't pushing for it to be done. So I had no valid reason to be irritated with him, though I do every now and then have valid reasons to be irritated with him, but I have learned to voice them immediately, otherwise I better just let it go. 



> Of course I do chores. Not all the time but pretty often. I clean the kitchen and take out the trash. I vacuum. I fold laundry. I cook dinner when I can (I work full time and she does not). I used to mow the lawn until she took it over, even though our counselor told her to let me do it so that I feel like I'm contributing something of value to the family.


You actually sound like you do more than my husband on the chore front. Even if you don't do it every day, it isn't your job to do the chores because you work full time. Even if she worked part time outside the home, she would still be responsible for 3/4's of the chores and you 1/4. Plus take into account how active you are as a father. Are you doing things with the kids, homework duty, or driving here and there, or anything with them while she is cleaning? That also counts as being part of the family and adding value to it. 




> Now another light bulb has just come on. This relates back to your question about how she shows her love. She does things for people. She makes cute crafty things, or fixes things, bakes pies, sews clothes, or even runs errands for people, and that is how she shows appreciation for someone. The light bulb came on when I just now realized that _that _must be how she wants to be appreciated herself. And that is something I can act on.


While I don't completely disagree with you on this point, I don't agree fully with it either. 

I do those kinds of things too. I bake things for friends and family for the fun of it (bread and cakes--especially fancy birthday cakes are my specialty) I run errands for people every now and then, I make lots of crafty things, I sew, and I am quite handy with power tools! But I don't do those things in excess, nor do I do them for any other reason but that I care about someone and like to lend and helping hand. I give things to people just to see them smile, but it is not how I show them appreciation, it is just nice to spread happiness. 

It does sound like your wife might be spreading herself a tad thin. Does she have a hard time saying no to people when they ask her for things or help? Does she tend to bite off more than she can chew and then get stressed out about it? If the answers to these are yes, then she isn't doing it to show appreciation, she is doing it to get people to like her, give her attention, boost her ego (which we all need but doing things for others is the wrong way to go about getting that,) and to make herself feel useful. 

I used to do things for others for those reasons, this is how I know what the behavior looks like. It causes nothing but massive amounts of stress cause there isn't enough time in a day to get all that we feel we HAVE to get done. This would in turn go back to my point above about getting angry at you for not doing more for her, because she has too much on her plate to get all of the things she needs to do as wife and mother done. This type of behavior is an obvious example of low self esteem too. The desire for others to like us, while a normal one, shouldn't be something bought with favors, it should just be because we are a great person. 

My favorite word now, to friends and family when they ask me to do things and I know it will cram my plate to full, is NO. But I do often have to tell myself no also when I want to do some sort of project, but if I do that project right now, my current project would put too much stress on me. So I write it on my list for later doing. 




> See, from my point of view, I feel valued when she wants to make love to me. So _me _wanting to make love to _her _ought to be the ultimate compliment, right? Well, I guess not. We value different things.


This is very normal for a man to feel. It is actually the most common way for men to feel appreciated by their spouse. The act of wanting your husband makes him feel desired, loved, and special. This is part of a wife's duty. It doesn't matter if it is not the way she feels appreciated, it doesn't matter if she isn't "in the mood" as your wife if she loved and appreciated you, she would make love to you to show you. It is the basic physiological and psychological way a man feels these things. It isn't just the sex either, the actual intercourse, it is the process of being desired and wanted that the man craves. Men crave the three A's. Appreciation, acceptance, and approval. Sex satisfies all three of these things in one shebang. 

It is different for women. A man's desire for her body is an ego booster for sure, but sex doesn't play the same role for women as it does men. It's not that women are complicated either, because we aren't. We are verbal creatures. To let your wife know you appreciate her, it requires verbal reassurance. So if she makes some crafty item, complimenting it and how good of a job she did, makes her feel good. Commenting on how clean a room looks and tell her what a good jobs she does taking care of the house, reinforces that she is doing her job right and that you notice. One thing I have often said, "No one notices when your kitchen floor is clean, but everyone notices when it is dirty." When we only notice the negative things, and we complain about them it doesn't give incentive to do things right because it isn't want gets noticed. Carrot and the stick philosophy. If a wife gets nothing for doing good, then why should she do it cause it doesn't give her the attention, but when it isn't done, she gets negative reinforcement of notation that it isn't done. Attention. Much like a child who acts out who just wants attention. 




> But still I'm left with this: How many hours of chores do I need to do each day, and for how many days, before she decides I've earned some lovin'? Obviously several weeks worth was not enough.
> 
> I hate this whole "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" thing. In my mind, it shouldn't be a freaking business relationship. Doesn't she love me? Doesn't that make her want to make love to me? Why isn't that enough? It used to be, back in the day. Just being together was all it took for her to want to have sex. Now it's eroded to the point where I have to _earn _sex? Why did she change? Damn, that's depressing.


It shouldn't be a business, but it is a give and take just like all relationships. The problem is that your wife has learned that she can use sex as a weapon. She withholds it from you, and she can get you to change any way she desires with the promises of sex in the future. 

We are all creatures of habit. Breaking a habit is hard to do. She has gotten into the habit of withholding from you in order to get her way. You have learned to keep changing to her whims in hopes of getting some. Because for a woman sex is not the source of our mental well being, it isn't much of a loss for her. However, for you it is like the ultimate punishment. Because as a man it is one of the main sources of your mental well being, happiness, and self worth. And it is not just the intercourse, it is the overall lack of intimacy that she withholds from you. 

It has nothing to do with how many chores you haven't done, it has to do with the fact that she doesn't love her self, thus she doesn't know how to show you love, or even if she loves you. The high of being in a new relationship that a woman gets, fads after the first few years, then you see what you are actually getting in the woman. The woman you have in front of you today is the real woman you married. The woman on your wedding day was her high as a kite on love chemicals in the brain. She felt loved, she felt desired, and it over road her basic make up of a low self esteem, self despising woman. 

You need to learn to stand up for yourself. Don't let her play the martyr of the relationship, because she's not. She has a role to play in the family dynamic just as much as you do. Your role is breadwinner and leader (something you need to start doing again.) And her's is to be the mother, homemaker, lover, and everything else that is involved in being a wife. You should both be each other's support system. Communicate openly about things. 


If you are going to continue to go to this therapist, you should bring up these points at your next visit. 

1. Your wife has low self esteem. 

2. You need intimacy to feel acceptance, approval, and appreciation. 

3. She is playing a game of withholding intimacy from you and using it as blackmail. 

4. She plies to much on her plate and leaves no room for you and how that makes you feel. 

5. Because of your wife's refusal to be intimate with you (now note not just sexual intercourse but all things included with intimacy, emotional and physical.) your self esteem has lowered and you feel like a shell of the man you used to be. 

6. You continue to try to change to what she wants, yet you never get what she promises you in return, intimacy.

7. Her withholding intimacy from you is a direct violation of your wedding vows. She is not loving, honoring, cherishing, or respecting you in anyway, not as a result of withholding but as a man in general. 

8. You are tired of playing the game. You want to get back to the person you are, and stop trying to be what she wants on a whim. 

9. If this therapist is going to show obvious siding with her you want a new therapist. 

10. You want her to do her wifely duties and to stop complaining that you don't do your part. You work to provide for the family. You are the head of the house hold. You are a good father. You try to be a good husband, but when your wife is not being a wife, you can not be a good husband to her. 


Print these out and bring them with you to your next visit and see what her reaction is and see what the therapists reaction is. 
I bet your wife will protest to these things, saying that it is not her wifely duty to be a slave...total BS, because she is not a slave. I do the same things your wife does and I have learned not to complain. Take care of kids and a house is part of what a wife and mother does...and if she wants appreciation for it, she needs to stop being the martyr and do what is expected of her. 

You are expected to go to work even when you don't "feel" like it. What would happen if you just didn't go to work when you didn't "feel like it"? That is the same thing when your wife doesn't do her wifely duties because she doesn't "feel like it." including being intimate with you! And that is not backward anti-feminist thinking, it is basic couple psychology. It is how couples work, and have always work throughout time all the way back to tribal living. It just is what men and women are designed for. 

I have always believed that couples should work out who does what best. So like if the man is a better cook than his wife, then maybe he should cook. If she is better at buying gifts for others, then she should buy the gifts. If she could earn more than the man, then maybe he should stay home and she should work. Things should be equal not in the sense of splitting household duties, but that each partner looks at the others strengths and weaknesses and they find ways to work together. 

This is what you need to find out in therapy...though from the sounds of it this therapist is going to make it hard to do. 

Alright I wrote a book here, talk to you later.
Puss


----------



## askpuss (Oct 10, 2008)

I wanted to add something else after reading MT's responses and your responses to him. 

It is your responsibility as a couple to work it out for your kids sake. You two are only unhappy because you aren't working together to make it better. 

I am not really sure why she is unhappy...could be her own self induced thought processes (most likely.) 

You are unhappy because you are not feeling loved from your wife. Plain and simple. She withholds intimacy, you don't feel loved or happy. 

But to divorce because you can't work it out would be irresponsible on both of your parts. 

It takes two people to be happy, it takes two to be unhappy too. 

You need to get to the root of why she is not happy. It might not be easy for her to figure it out, but you not doing enough around the house isn't enough of a reason for her to be unhappy! Unhappiness runs much deeper than that, and she needs to figure it out. 

You know why you're unhappy. You need your wife to be a wife...that isn't too hard to figure out. 

But getting divorced over the issues the two of you have is selfish. Depriving your children of a secure house hold, both loving parents under the same roof, and normalcy would be a very selfish thing on her part especially! 

She would tell you to screw off if you made a demand, but she makes demands of you all the time! Doesn't that sound a little backward? You have to learn to not be passive aggressive in your way of dealing with her. Have a spine and tell her that her demands of you are ridiculous! And that she gives no incentive for you to do what she wants because she never comes through with the intimacy. 

You both need to come to a point where you start acting as if the other partner is exactly what you want. Someone has to start the behavior change and it works better when you both do it at the same time and make that your new habit. 

You need to learn how to deal with confrontation and how to be assertive. She needs to learn to stop being a selfish you know what. 

Puss


----------



## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> *Get her to go on the special fish-oil diet on the link that follows. but women on it develop a craving for penetration. *


*

OMG that explains it...I eat a lot of fish, but OK, im not eating anymore fish! ahha!*


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Puss, 

You continue to amaze me with your ability to analyze my life. 

I'm going to a book store today (yes, a real one, with walls and books I can hold in my hand, not just a website!) and I plan to look for Glasser's books. They sound like just what I need.

You asked if my wife was spreading her life too thin. Let me tell you something now that was the most hurtful thing she has ever said about me. We were in a session with our previous counselor (the one we stuck with for two years and was very helpful). We were talking about her lack of sex drive. The counselor perceptively drilled down to the fact that my wife was just too busy. The counselor asked her if she thought that having so much to do, with her part-time work plus her numerous volunteer activities, if it was affecting her ability to relax and be intimate. My wife's response was, and this is a direct quote: "I'll be damned if I'm going to give up what I love..." and she trailed off, but the 2nd half of that sentence most certainly was "...for a sex life with my husband."

I was speechless. It felt like I was hit by a wave of pressure on my brain. Did she really say that? Indeed she did. She just said that keeping busy is more important that being intimate with me. I still get all queasy inside when I think of that conversation. 

What followed in that session is kind of a blur for me. I was still wrestling with what she'd said but I think the counselor challenged her bit, and got nowhere. 

You said I should grow a spine. Funny choice of wording. When we were first dating, she said to me on several occasions "I hate spineless men". I don't know if I was spineless when she married me or if I lost it later, but yeah, I'm spineless and that probably is a factor in how she sees me now. 

I actually wrote myself a note a year ago declaring that I was going to get tough, grow a spine, and challenge her when I felt it was the right thing to do. And I did that for about two days and then, honestly, I forgot I'd ever written that note. I stumbled upon it just recently and felt ashamed that I'd let it slide. 

I think a big problem for me right now, as you said, is that I don't know what makes my wife happy. I don't know what she needs in our relationship other than me doing chores. For our next session with the counselor our homework is for each of us to write down at least 5 things that make us feel loved. That will be interesting to hear.


----------



## Honey (Sep 2, 2008)

Nine-E said:


> It's been almost 20 years ago that I got married. Life was good. Sex was good. But not long after marriage my physical advances were met with indifference at first, then eventually total dismissal. She just didn't want it. I felt rejected and undesirable and unloved.
> 
> I was miserable but since I'm both an optimist (it will get better soon!) and a wimp (not enough courage to confront her) I let it drag on for years. I felt that I had done something wrong but lacked the balls to ask her what it was that I'd done. All I really knew was that the *one* person in the world who should want to make love to me didn't want to, and there were nights when I'd cry myself to sleep over it.
> 
> ...


 Your wife wants to feel that she is still hot looking to you. After having kids, some women feel that they are not sexy any more. You need not just tell her you want sex, but that you want to make love to her because she is so lovely, and in your eyes, she will always be as sexy as she was when you two first met. Women look at other women with better bodies than they have, and this can cause them to get so depressed about themselves, and then they don't feel like making love. 

You know if you tell someone over and over that they are fat or ugly that they will start to believe it is true. Not saying you do this, but you need to make her feel good about herself, and that her body is still as hot to you as it ever was.

I hope this helps you. Good luck to you !


----------



## Honey (Sep 2, 2008)

Ok, how did I get a kiss from Kim? :scratchhead: I'll change my sig to this.


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Nine-E said:


> "I'll be damned if I'm going to give up what I love..." and she trailed off, but the 2nd half of that sentence most certainly was "...for a sex life with my husband."
> 
> I was speechless. It felt like I was hit by a wave of pressure on my brain. Did she really say that? Indeed she did. She just said that keeping busy is more important that being intimate with me. I still get all queasy inside when I think of that conversation.


You need to read the above 3 times.



Nine-E said:


> You said I should grow a spine. Funny choice of wording. When we were first dating, she said to me on several occasions "I hate spineless men". I don't know if I was spineless when she married me or if I lost it later, but yeah, I'm spineless and that probably is a factor in how she sees me now.
> 
> I actually wrote myself a note a year ago declaring that I was going to get tough, grow a spine, and challenge her when I felt it was the right thing to do. And I did that for about two days and then, honestly, I forgot I'd ever written that note. I stumbled upon it just recently and felt ashamed that I'd let it slide.


You need to grow a spine, not for her but for you. You marvelled when I said your life could change beyond your wildest dreams. This is what will do it.



Nine-E said:


> I think a big problem for me right now, as you said, is that I don't know what makes my wife happy. I don't know what she needs in our relationship other than me doing chores. For our next session with the counselor our homework is for each of us to write down at least 5 things that make us feel loved. That will be interesting to hear.


My belief is that your wife does not deserve you, but then you are not fully YOU. When you have reclaimed your true power, you will be 100 times the man you are now. It's so close you can taste it, but will you bite?

This could happen overnight for you. You could just wake up and the denial will be gone from your heart, and you'll make God smile at you.


----------



## Honey (Sep 2, 2008)




----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Honey,

Good advice, but I'm not going to lie to her and tell her she's as hot as she ever was. She's going to have to lose about 30 pounds before I can honestly say that.


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

*Nine-E*

One thing that confuses me was why she bothered to get sterilized if she did not want a sex life?


----------



## Honey (Sep 2, 2008)

Nine-E said:


> Honey,
> 
> Good advice, but I'm not going to lie to her and tell her she's as hot as she ever was. She's going to have to lose about 30 pounds before I can honestly say that.


So, you are saying just because she has to lose 30 pounds, she's not hot?


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Honey said:


> So, you are saying just because she has to lose 30 pounds, she's not hot?


Now now, don't put words in my mouth. You suggested I tell her that she's "as hot as she ever was", and at 30 or so pounds heavier, she's not. Period. Doesn't mean I don't want to make love to her.

I am not "hot" either. I would never expect a woman to think that I was. This isn't low self esteem talking here. It's just the truth. No overweight 45 year old man with buck teeth, a recessive chin line, who drives a minivan and is overly shy will ever be considered hot. By anyone. No woman has looked twice at me in the last 15 years. 25 if we exclude my wife.

MT,

She got sterilized because the doctor was already in there doing a C-section, and she wanted to make absolutely, positively sure that she would never have any more kids.


----------



## askpuss (Oct 10, 2008)

Nine-E said:


> Now now, don't put words in my mouth. You suggested I tell her that she's "as hot as she ever was", and at 30 or so pounds heavier, she's not. Period. Doesn't mean I don't want to make love to her.
> 
> I am not "hot" either. I would never expect a woman to think that I was. This isn't low self esteem talking here. It's just the truth. No overweight 45 year old man with buck teeth, a recessive chin line, who drives a minivan and is overly shy will ever be considered hot. By anyone. No woman has looked twice at me in the last 15 years. 25 if we exclude my wife.
> 
> ...



Sorry I didn't reply sooner, been battling strep throat...let me tell you it sucks. LOL 

Anyway, now that I am better and at the end of my antibiotic treatment, I can look here at what you said and give you a little more of my opinion/thoughts. 

It's like we are in therapy ourselves here, we keep getting a little more from you each response, thus leading us/me to more of an image of your wife. 

That last statement you gave me, "I'll be damned if I give up my blah, blah, blah, for a sex life with my husband!" Wow, the epitome of feminism right there. Your wife needs a wake up call. Not everything in life is about her. She has kids, she has a husband, and she needs to stop putting all these things that she feels she "needs" to do ahead of you and them. She is being selfish. Being selfish every now and then is one thing, like spending $20 on a DVD or a CD that you really want, or maybe even a spa day on yourself...that is one thing, pampering yourself in some way as a reward is fine, but spending all of your energy on things that have nothing to do with the commitments she made as a wife and a mother is a selfish person. 

As that is being said to me, I have to go play with my kids before bedtime reading...something I cherish every night..then it is time for my hubby who is sick as a dog now with the strep that has been going through the house. I love my job as a mother and wife, and maybe your wife needs to meet someone who is not a total femin-nazi who actually cherishes her role as a mother and wife over all those other optional roles in life. 

Puss...talk to you soon.


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Puss,

On Monday we had another session with our marriage counselor. I brought up that statement about not giving up what she loves for a sex life with her husband, and she said that that was how she felt "at the time", implying that given the right circumstances it could change. 

I then brought up another statement she made in counseling about two weeks ago, which was "Even if I had a sex drive, I would not want to have sex with _him_", meaning me. Again she said that that was how she felt at that point in time. 

I told her how much those statements hurt me, and others she's said recently, and she got a little defensive. That night we became distant. I invited her to take a bath with me, which is where we do our best talking, and she asked me if I really meant that. I said yes, please join me. She did for a while and we chit-chatted about daily stuff, but she got out of the tub rather abruptly and sooner than usual. Later she said that it was "just too soon". For what I'm still not clear. 

At the end of the counseling session we shared our answers to the statement "I feel most loved when...". Mine were almost all about physical intimacy, while hers were about people doing things for her without being asked. Again it seems that for her to feel loved, she needs to have things done, and to feel most loved those things should be done by people who care about her. We haven't yet discussed our answers.

I don't know about femi-nazi. Maybe. I know that she really can't identify with any woman who lives to take care of her family. It's just totally foreign to her. It's a struggle every day to do the household chores, deal with the kids, the meals, dentist appointments, etc. 

I'm really feeling lost now. One moment I'm ready to end this hopeless marriage, and the next I think there's still a chance we could be happy. 

Oh BTW, my doctor has put me on Wellbutrin on Tuesday. My first antidepressant. I've been on it two days and my sleep pattern has gone weird and I feel all cloudy in my head. I hope that goes away. It's making it hard to think clearly.


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Nine-E said:


> Oh BTW, my doctor has put me on Wellbutrin on Tuesday. My first antidepressant.


It breaks my heart to read that you've taken that route.


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Update?


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Okay, wow. You remembered? Amazing.

Been through half a dozen antidepressants. None worked, although I was BLOWN AWAY by the positive sexual side effects of Prozac. Infinite stamina and mind blowing FULL BODY orgasms like I can't describe. So sad I can't get those without the negative side effects. Totally off drugs now.

Been seeing a new couples counselor for over a year now. She is (mostly) wonderful and very helpful (but see below). 

Big crisis hit last spring in counseling. I'd declared that I'd given up asking for sex, and that's why we hadn't done it for 7 months. Counselor asked me what I do to satisfy my sexual needs and I said I masturbate. She turned to my wife and asked her the same thing. "I masturbate" she said. I was shocked. I asked how often, "twice a week". I asked how long this had been going on, "years". 

I felt hurt, betrayed, and resentful. I went into a tailspin. She'd been refusing sex for 20 years now and all this time blowing her wad behind my back??? Oh gawd that hurt. 

I wrote pages and pages of questions, trying to understand how and why. She refused to answer any of them. Our counselor told me to shred the document and never think about those questions again. Asking those questions would only further hurt our relationship. I felt they were ganging up on me. 

Unable to ask important questions and have meaningful discussions about this, I fell deeply into depression. I lost 10 pounds in two weeks because I was unable to eat. I couldn't sleep. My work performance suffered. 

Eventually, about a month ago, I realized that my wife was not my adversary. From what discussions we did have I had to believe that her refusing sex was not intended to be hurtful. Her only explanation was that sex just wasn't a priority for her. The fact that it was important to me had eluded her, somehow. She never even thought about the notion that a sexless marriage was unhealthy.

Then there's the whole sex therapist issue. She and our counselor sent me to a sex therapist to deal with, I don't know, my strong sex drive I guess. The guy was a total crackpot but did convince me to dump my porn collection. When I did my wife just shrugged. Yes porn was an issue for her, but dumping the porn did not impress her. Couples counselor felt the same way. 

Mr. Sex Therapist only made demands. He would not listen to me. Treated me like I was deviant rapist or something. Sex addiction surveys I took came back "borderline addicted", and he admitted some of my answers could have gone either way, so he really didn't consider me an addict. Still, he wanted me to give up masturbating for 4 months "just to see what happens". BS. With my wife's blessing I dumped him. Will not be going back. 

Things are in a strange place now. We've been seeing our couples counselor individually for a few weeks. Will be going back as a couple in July. The big issue now is that my wife can't or won't have sex if she's stressed, and summer is more stressful for her now that school is out and she's home with the kids every day. She hopes to get a new job in the fall, and she's already declared that I should expect to not have sex for several weeks _at least _while she settles in. Then the holidays hit, which is THE most stressful time for her. So to me that means no sex until January. Lovely.

When I suggested to our counselor that my wife needs to work on ways to manage her stress levels, the response was that _*I*_ needed to be the one to reduce her stress. _*I*_ need to take on more responsibility so that she can be more relaxed. Problem is, my wife admits that no matter what gets done there will always be some chore or task not yet done, and that destroys her sex drive. And that's why I think she needs to learn to lower her own stress levels. I will never be able to do enough. 

There's more, but I feel I've written enough for now. 

- Nine-E


----------



## lynst (Aug 13, 2010)

Nine-E said:


> The most difficult thing about our relationship is that she desperately wants to please me but feels she never could. She doesn't want sex and believes there's nothing that's going to change that. I feel that now she's putting me in the position of being the bad guy for hanging so much importance on our sex life. There are other issues in our marriage, but nothing so important to me as this. In general we get along okay. We never fight, but the flip side is that we never go head-over-heels for each other either.
> 
> We've discussed divorce a couple of times over the last couple of years, but for me it all comes down to destroying my children's nuclear family. My wife and I both grew up in stable homes with parents in their 70s that are still happily married. Imagining my kids not being in a cozy, family environment... not being with both parents at the same time, just makes me crazy. I don't know that I could ever do that to my children. I love them dearly and as far as they know Mom & Dad are happy and will love each other forever. How does one explain to elementary school age kids that Mom (or Dad) won't be living with them anymore? It just breaks my heart to even think about it.
> 
> ...


It is not a good situation, and the problem is her, not you. I know if my husband had went out of his way to show he loved me by helping around the house, talking, and so on, that I would go to bed early. I learned early in marriage, even if I am mad or don't want sex, to do it anyway. (Only thing is that because I did that for years, had sex even when I didn't want it, he learned that he could ignore me emotionally, refuse to talk to me, and many other things he did to mistreat me, and still get what he wants in the bedroom. Therefore, I feel like he has only wanted HIS needs met, and not mine. ) She needs to have sex for your sake, not hers. If she continues to do it with you every time you at least once a week at first, her extreme coldness and lack of desire just might melt away, and she might start enjoying it. She is not trying in this effort. This is just as wrong as a man who doesn't try to communicate with or listen to his wife. (Which is my situation.) I sure hope you can get this problem fixed soon. It will take time, but she definitely needs to do it for your sake.


----------



## Longtime Husband (Dec 14, 2009)

lynst said:


> It is not a good situation, and the problem is her, not you. I know if my husband had went out of his way to show he loved me by helping around the house, talking, and so on, that I would go to bed early. I learned early in marriage, even if I am mad or don't want sex, to do it anyway. (Only thing is that because I did that for years, had sex even when I didn't want it, he learned that he could ignore me emotionally, refuse to talk to me, and many other things he did to mistreat me, and still get what he wants in the bedroom. Therefore, I feel like he has only wanted HIS needs met, and not mine. ) She needs to have sex for your sake, not hers. If she continues to do it with you every time you at least once a week at first, her extreme coldness and lack of desire just might melt away, and she might start enjoying it. She is not trying in this effort. This is just as wrong as a man who doesn't try to communicate with or listen to his wife. (Which is my situation.) I sure hope you can get this problem fixed soon. It will take time, but she definitely needs to do it for your sake.


Bottom Line: Hold yourself AND your spouse to equally high (or low) standards of meeting one anothers' needs.


----------



## 76Trombones (Jun 2, 2010)

Maybe your wife loves you, finds you attractive, etc, but just doesn't like sex. There are a lot of people out there that do not like that particular act (sex). It's not in her love language either, like you stated, so there's some more proof. There's nothing wrong with not liking the act of sex (just as there is nothing wrong with liking it). Her libido is not wrong or bad, neither is yours. You are just not compatible together. She probably isn't into seeing doctors etc because to her there is no problem. It's just the way she's always been. 

In this situation, the first thing you guys have to do is stop blaming eachother because nobody is wrong! You guys are just different and not compatible. So stop blaming. There are really only two outcomes to this situation. One of them is for you two to compromise to a standard that is acceptable by both. It might be less than you want (but enough), and it will definitely be more than she wants but it depends on what she can stand. If you can compromise like that then you are set!

If not, then breaking up is the other option. You can't change a person. She's not low libido just to spite you. I would highly doubt that she doesn't love you... she does, she just doesn't like the act of sex. Yes, it's probably that simple. If it is a dealbreaker for you, then there is only one option... part ways.


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Not sure how long ago. Maybe a couple of months, my wife came to some kind of focus in her mind and decided to do whatever it took to keep us together. Her first step in that direction was to declare that she would have sex with me whenever I want (within reason, not if she's sick, obviously). She even agreed to have morning sex with me on demand, which is my favorite time and her least favorite. That worked for a couple of weeks and then she stopped responding again. 

She still maintains she'll have sex any time I want, but it's gotten impossible to wake her up when I'm horny. Sex at other times has happened occasionally, but she's leaving it completely up to me to initiate it, and that's where I have a problem. If she's never initiating sex then I just don't feel wanted. Plus, when we are doing it she just sort of lays there and tolerates it. Of course she denies that, she says she's enjoying herself but when a woman just acquiesces and doesn't ask for any particular act or position and hardly makes a sound, what am I supposed to think? 

Apparently I still have issues with making it crystal clear that I want sex. She and our counselor agree that if I'm naked, visibly aroused, dry humping her leg and fondling her breasts as we lay in bed while she's wide awake, that doesn't mean "I'm horny". I have to say it out loud or it means nothing. <sigh>

- Nine-E


----------



## jmsclayton (Sep 5, 2010)

Hi 

sharing 

see rresponses below yours

Not sure how long ago. Maybe a couple of months, my wife came to some kind of focus in her mind and decided to do whatever it took to keep us together. Her first step in that direction was to declare that she would have sex with me whenever I want (within reason, not if she's sick, obviously). She even agreed to have morning sex with me on demand, which is my favorite time and her least favorite. That worked for a couple of weeks and then she stopped responding again. 

Judith: Have you ask her if something has happened to have her stop. 

She still maintains she'll have sex any time I want, but it's gotten impossible to wake her up when I'm horny. 

Judith: How about trying nonsexual massage first before sexual. Some women need that to relax. Emotional intimacy helps a great deal with sexual for a woman. maybe alternate the time in which you choose to want it

Sex at other times has happened occasionally, but she's leaving it completely up to me to initiate it, and that's where I have a problem. If she's never initiating sex then I just don't feel wanted. Plus, when we are doing it she just sort of lays there and tolerates it. 

JUdith: Some women give to their man by not initiating even when they dont want it -it is like a gift to their man. Also even if she doesn't want ice cream and she has some and likes it-she is glad she has it-relate that to sex and her. Some times women are like that.. 

Of course she denies that, she says she's enjoying herself but when a woman just acquiesces and doesn't ask for any particular act or position and hardly makes a sound, what am I supposed to think? 

Judith: She may not be the one to make a sound. Is she thinking about what she is feeling? Do you talk to her before and after sex with nonsexual talk in and out? are you relating to her nonsexually sexually before sex

Apparently I still have issues with making it crystal clear that I want sex. She and our counselor agree that if I'm naked, visibly aroused, dry humping her leg and fondling her breasts as we lay in bed while she's wide awake, that doesn't mean "I'm horny". I have to say it out loud or it means nothing. 

Judith: A woman has to mentally prepare to want sex as well as emotionally. Just bcuase her body is responding doesn't always mean her mind is. Do you start out relationally and so on before entering into sex.. Women who want sex unless they are obvious with it-sometimes dont know what they can do to initiate... Does she know? 

What do you think?

Judith


----------



## jmsclayton (Sep 5, 2010)

HI 

sharing 

see repsonses below yours

Eventually, about a month ago, I realized that my wife was not my adversary. From what discussions we did have I had to believe that her refusing sex was not intended to be hurtful. Her only explanation was that sex just wasn't a priority for her. The fact that it was important to me had eluded her, somehow. She never even thought about the notion that a sexless marriage was unhealthy.

Judith: What women some need now days with regards to be so busy -they have to think about sex in order to remember they need to do it.Some women dont understand a male body in how it works and why he needs sex more often than she does. Some need to schedule it on the calendar to put the priority back in the relationship with other things. Some emotionally struggle with it -have you sat down and see what she would like to do with you in it to get started again.. Take it one day at a time. Do you think you both could sit down and see what she is wanting to do in sex and come to agreement to try somethings for her sake to see what she would like to handle to start back up again with it. But you make some choices too.It is important that men explain to women why they need sex. etc. She may need to find what emotional things is hindering the nonsexual relationship from you to her-also if you begin with emotionally relating to her on a nonsexual level-she will start to want sex like you wouldn't believe. 
She could get also a testosterone for women a dietary supplement or a vitamin that takes care of that-something sense is the name-


Things are in a strange place now. We've been seeing our couples counselor individually for a few weeks. Will be going back as a couple in July. The big issue now is that my wife can't or won't have sex if she's stressed, and summer is more stressful for her now that school is out and she's home with the kids every day. 

JUdith: It is true that stress can be a part of it but a book I read about a woman being stressed she had to come to the point of realize she had to find out why she was reluctant to have sex. 365 Nites book talks about the benefits for both husband and wife to have sex how it helps the relationship nonsexually. Maybe gettting a book like that and reading it together can really help. 
You wanting sex 3 times a week or more is the average. A couple have sex helps the children in ways you will never know-I can give a list if you want

She hopes to get a new job in the fall, and she's already declared that I should expect to not have sex for several weeks at least while she settles in. 

Judith: Well women need cuddling even if sex doesn't occur. The key is to realize that nonsexual cuddling is important just as much as sex is. 

The key for Masturbation for her is to learn her body to help you and her out not to keep you from her. It seems she has some emotional issues going on with sex

Then the holidays hit, which is THE most stressful time for her. So to me that means no sex until January. Lovely.

Judith: She needs to be able to have sex and make it a priority even if in the stressful time. She needs to make a mental and emotional decision about it. The gal in the 365 book and the rather eat choc book it was about not making sex a priority and had to find out why they struggle with not wanting it. 

, and that destroys her sex drive. And that's why I think she needs to learn to lower her own stress levels. I will never be able to do enough. 

JUdith: It seems to me she is struggling with where to put the priority of sex in her life. If this is after kids she needs something to produce the low libido back. Soem women dont understand what they need to bring the libido back and dont understand the importance of it in a relationship/marriage etc. 
And really dont understand how it keeps the man from straying for a lack of better way in saying it. The key for men is to emotionally relate through out the day to her. Are you calling and make a connection to ehr nonsexually. etc. besides helping with housework etc. 

What do you think?

Judith
- Nine-E


----------



## jmsclayton (Sep 5, 2010)

HI

sharing

Forgot something. 

Women dont understand that how men relate is through the physical nonsexually as well as sexually physical. SO your repsonses are going to be physical and that is a male female difference. She could be struggling with the differences as well. now vs before. 

thoughts? 

Judith


----------



## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Judith:

Relating nonsexually is an issue between us. It's gotten to the point where often I don't even like being around her much anymore. I feel she, with her very assertive personality, belittles me frequently, and that causes me to turn away, and then she feels we aren't connecting. Of course I see how that would cause her to not want sex. 

Our counselor is working with us on that now. I'm trying to confront her when I feel she's parentalizing me, and she's working on toning down her assertiveness. But it's tough. 

As for the sex itself, when I ask her what she wants she just shrugs and says "whatever". Sex is not a priority for her, but she's willing to make it a priority for me. That doesn't change how she feels about sex itself. She could still just take it or leave it. She doesn't care. 

As for nonsexual physical contact, she doesn't care about that either. I'm the one who needs physical contact to feel loved. She enjoys cuddling and hugs, but I'm the one who craves it. And, I've said before, she doesn't like to kiss, while for me it is one of the greatest joys in life. How can there be passion without kissing? It's all so frustrating. 

You say the key for men is to emotionally relate throughout the day to her. That is huge. Yes, that's what she needs. But I'm so gun shy after all these years that I still can't carry on a conversation with her without a feeling of dread. A feeling that at any moment she will give me the "how can you be such a stupid idiot?" tone of voice that just drives me away even further. Again, we're working on this with our counselor.

- Nine-E


----------



## jmsclayton (Sep 5, 2010)

Hi E nine

sharing 

see responses below yours

Judith:

Relating nonsexually is an issue between us. It's gotten to the point where often I don't even like being around her much anymore. I feel she, with her very assertive personality, belittles me frequently, and that causes me to turn away, and then she feels we aren't connecting. Of course I see how that would cause her to not want sex.

Judith: I am going to respond from two different ways. Until you correct me if i am wrong. I am going to believe that she had trauma in her background. Do you let her know that what and how she says it that it is unacceptable to you by saying "I dont appreciate that kind of talk" And do you do it like a broken record which means repeat it until she hears it mentally. It sounds to me like she had trauma in her past and her "assertive" personality is such that she feels like she is not protected unless she says or does something to repsond to you as if you were the person who hurt her relationally. etc -Well since women relate relationally etc -yes she is going to feel you are not connecting. Becuase of how you respond to her. She may or may not understand that 1. that is not how to relate to a guy and 2. that men take stuff personally becuase of several factors being they think "physically" relating. 

Our counselor is working with us on that now. I'm trying to confront her when I feel she's parentalizing me, and she's working on toning down her assertiveness. But it's tough.

Judith: The parentalizing thing sounds like she has trauma in her past and that she is seeking you to be a father to her besides a husband and that would make sense in why she respond to you as she does. It is tough when there is trauma in a woman past. If and it seems like her trauma started as a child like younger than 3rd grade and or 6 years old or even that-that she is workign out of childhood behavior and that takes time to heal. 

As for the sex itself, when I ask her what she wants she just shrugs and says "whatever". Sex is not a priority for her, but she's willing to make it a priority for me. That doesn't change how she feels about sex itself. She could still just take it or leave it. She doesn't care.

Judith; Well women who have trauma of any kind even the kind that says that sex is dirty with even no abuse like involved-they dont know that they can be active participant and seek what they want. In my experience so far -alot of women dont know taht they need to learn about their body etc and so that they can know waht they want etc. SHe may not understand why it is a priority for you becuase she due to trauma and lack of info -doesn't realize why you are needing it and seeking it. and that really she can want it and seek it as well either equally to you or about as often as --even when you want it more than she does. She needs healing in the mind about sex it sounds like to me. Also of women who dont understand etc about sex when it comes to be a woman in relation to man will want to leave it. 

As for nonsexual physical contact, she doesn't care about that either. I'm the one who needs physical contact to feel loved. She enjoys cuddling and hugs, but I'm the one who craves it. And, I've said before, she doesn't like to kiss, while for me it is one of the greatest joys in life. How can there be passion without kissing? It's all so frustrating.

Judith: Is she not open to hugs at all? Can you start with that for now? She may not understand why you need the physical contact. ARe you able to explain that to her as well as how you operate as man and why? You really need to.Well for now it would help if you could work with what you can do until she can heal from her trauma-Have you ask her why she is unable to want kissing when it comes to sex? She can if healing occurs and then want sex. with it but the trauma may have involved kissing and that is why she struggles with it. Women struggle with these things mentally, emotionally and physically combined. 

You say the key for men is to emotionally relate throughout the day to her. That is huge. Yes, that's what she needs. But I'm so gun shy after all these years that I still can't carry on a conversation with her without a feeling of dread. 

JUdith: How about Starting to relate to her throughout the day in notes. First of all she can't say anything when it comes to notes. Secondly when you are able to talk to her either by phone or cell phone-text would be good too and email-when it comes to the phone -verbally converstaions. Why not breath through until you relax then talk-remember you are going to need to repeat the saying-I dont appreciate that comment until she realizes that that comment is not nice. It sounds like she is dealign with trauma from the past and doesn't know how to relate especially when you said she parentifizes you-if that is a word. Try to change yoru dread in your thinking by remember that you need to relax and breath through your body in and out when you feel the feeling coming on -and remind yourself that you have something to say and that you dont have to take her responses. I know you care and it is hard to refute the comments but you need to. -you need to let go of the dread. And that you need to remind her taht is not the way to talk to you and -you in your own mind will remind her that you will let her know that she is not talking appropriately-When women are traumatized -she needs to to be reminded like a broken record to not say things that she was nonverbally taught at home etc. 

A feeling that at any moment she will give me the "how can you be such a stupid idiot?" tone of voice that just drives me away even further. Again, we're working on this with our counselor.

Judith: Remember she is talking to the person that traumatized her and that -it is not about you. Remember she doesn't know that it affects you by not letting her know that it doesn't affect you. Good that your talking to a counselor about this. 

You need to let go of that feeling and so on and remind yoruself to that you need to inform her what you dont like about how she talks to you. that is a boundary and in trauma boundaries are not learned. She may not like it but it will hurt but it will let her know what you can and can't handle. She needs to learn that. and especially from you-you are vital. 

What do you think? 

Judith


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jmsclayton said:


> You need to let go of that feeling and so on and remind yoruself to that you need to inform her what you dont like about how she talks to you. that is a boundary and in trauma boundaries are not learned. She may not like it but it will hurt but it will let her know what you can and can't handle. She needs to learn that. and especially from you-you are vital.


 I very much agree with this boundary talk here. She has been stepping on you for years, you have allowed this , you may not be able to change her actions/words but You CAN change what you allow & your response to this belittling. 

No longer just take this, she needs to be told this is not acceptable, walk out of the room if you have too. Do your best to hold your head high, because the way she is acting *says MORE ABOUT HER than it does YOU*. If she is truly just being a "B" at the time, pulling your strings cause this has become her way of comminicating, their simply is no just cause for this behavior, other than she has become in the habit of doing so. 

She will have more respect for you if you stand up to her, it may shock , she may scowl & get angry, but this is something you dont worry about, just expect. Till she has learned the proper way of respectful relating to another. 

When she can be respectful towards you, her husband she choose, and rational, then talk to her, love on her, listen to her. One of my favorite books of all time is Amazon.com: Boundaries: When to Say Yes, When to Say No to Take Control of Your Life (9780310247456): Henry Cloud, John Townsend: Books They have another about Boundaries in Marraige, maybe more fitting. So much wisdom between these covers.


----------



## cubsfn (Sep 23, 2010)

Nine-E .. just wanted to let you know that I somewhat know how you feel and I am only going into year 6 of our marriage .. the same stuff you are dealing with I am dealing with as well ... I truly hope you guys work this out!


----------

