# I hurt my husband



## hiswife (May 12, 2010)

This is my first post. I'm new to this forum. I have a very long story, and will just give you the highlights. By shortening it, I'm afraid it may come across as cold, but you can't imagine the emotions involved in all of this. But, to make a VERY long story short....

We married in 1984. I had an affair in 1986. It involved flirting and one sexual encounter. I never told my husband, but he always suspected. He asked me several times over the years and I always denied. He brought it up again in 2006, and I could tell that it was really bothering him, so I confessed. 

Turns out he had imagined things a thousand times worse. He was horribly hurt. Even though it had happened 20 years ago, it was brand new to him. And it wasn't just the cheating, it was the 20 years of lying to him.

Things got ugly. He kept asking "why". I couldn't give him a good enough answer. There is no good answer for something like that. The fact that I was young, stupid and impressionable certainly wasn't a good enough reason for him.

In the summer of 2006 he propositioned 2 women at work. Supposedly both turned him down. Then in summer of 2007 he advertised himself on an internet dating site and after 3 days of chatting w/ a woman, he met her for sex. I found out pretty quickly, he said he broke it off, but later I found out it went on for another 3 months.

I was devastated. I thought we were doing better. He said he didn't do it for revenge or to hurt me. He said he did it because I couldn't give him answers. He said he did it as an experiment to see how you could do something like that to someone you love.

Since then, he has stayed in touch w/ the internet woman. Sometimes secretly, sometimes openly. He has become good friends w/ one of the women he propositioned. He was trying to get close to 3 other women on the internet. I know he was lying about one other woman and going to meet her at the coffee shop. He swears nothing physical has ever happened except for the 3 month affair in 2007.

He's really gotten big into Face Book. He was chatting and flirting with a woman last night while we were lying in bed together.

Obviously I can't trust him.

He says he can't love me like he did before. He says he can't like who I am, because I don't even like myself. He says I should find myself, then come find him.

We've gone to marriage counseling and individual counseling. He HATED it because he thought he was completly right and they didn't agree with him on everything. 

He says he's thru placing blame, that this is just where we are. But if I ever act mad about the other women, he throws my affair back at me. We have a very one-sided relationship. I don't argue, I wait on him hand and foot. He never did housework before, but now he won't do anything (cars, lawn mower, etc.) He said one time that he's waiting on me to get stronger so he can leave. I think he may be waiting till our 15 yr. old turns 18 so he won't have to pay child support.

Even if nothing physical is going on (and I'm not sure of that), all these other women are driving me crazy. I don't see how we can work on our marriage when he's got one foot out the door.

He wants me to "find myself" which I think means lose 50lbs and act happy, and want sex 3 times a day. But how can I do that with the constant disrespect and tension?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, you could lose the 50 lbs anyway, since you know you need to.

And then separate and move on. It's obvious he can't deal with the cheating. Some people can deal with infidelity and stick around and forgive. Some can't.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Having an affair and lying for basically all of your marriage hit him hard, devastated him.

It is new, a now traumatic thing for him.

He is paying you back even if he says he isn't.

I am sorry you deceived him for such an extended time. This is the result.

Not sure how long he'll do this, but you don't really have to take it.

Yeah, you did horrible things, but it doesn't justify what he is doing now.


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## hiswife (May 12, 2010)

Please believe that I'm not making light of my deception. I know I hurt him terribly. He thinks that I don't understand, and maybe I can't fully understand, since I'm not in his shoes. But he's hurt me too. He's done and said things to me that have rocked me to the core. The fact that my gentle, laid back husband did all this tells me how much this has affected him. 

He says that I don't "own" what I did. He says that he takes full responsiblity for everything he's done. But he still lies and keeps things from me. So how is that taking responsibility?

It's been 4 years since DDay. He tore me down so bad that I took everything he dished out, every punishment, because I thought I deserved it. I already felt guilty, then his words and actions killed any self respect I had. Now he doesn't want me because I don't like myself. Every time he brings it up and asks if I've forgiven myself or do I feel better, he says "how can you live w/ yourself after what you did?". So it all feels like mind games. Manipulation. We had a conversation the other day where he said I was being selfish by doing unselfish acts. ?!?!?!

I've really wondered if part of this is midlife crisis. 

I just don't know what to do. I know if I give him an ultimatium about the other women, he'll leave. Mainly just because an ultimatium of any kind will tick him off, and he's so stubborn he'll leave even if he doesn't really want to. Or, is this all some kind of test and he's waiting for me to stand up for myself? Or does he really just not care if he hurts me?


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## noona (Jan 6, 2010)

Speaking as a person who was cheated on, I don't think your H's "eye-for-an-eye" mentality is justified. I would not do that to my wife. In my opinion, if he loves you and wants to make it work, he should focus all this attention on working through issues in your relationship. To be honest, I had the same thoughts of revenge when I found out about my W's affair. Then, I realized it was selfish and somewhat childish. Taking revenge on the situation was not going to help me resolve any of my hurt feelings.

Just a perspective from someone who has been in your H's shoes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No he doesn't care. You KILLED that part of him. That's what happens. YOU know that, you're feeling it now, too.

Just move on. Let him have whatever life he needs to have now, and let yourself heal and move on and learn from your mistakes. Find someone else who you can tell the truth to, and let him decide if he will want you. Sorry, but this is your consequence.


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## hiswife (May 12, 2010)

Thanks for your responses. 

He claims he doesn't have the eye-for-an-eye mentality. He really thinks he's above that. Remember, his affair was an "experiment" because I wouldn't give him answers. So it was my fault, not his. He denies it was for revenge or because he was owed a freebie.

As for keeping in contact with the OW, and all the others that he talks to, he says good friends are hard to come by, and he won't stop talking to them. When OW stopped contacting him, he actually contacted her and told her how to call him so that I wouldn't know. He thought she needed someone to talk to. (gag!) It's funny how all his good friends are women.

He says he's moved on, quit placing blame, etc. He says there's no reason for him to change. He is who he is, I am who I am, and he's accepted that. He's perfectly happy with himself. He says I'm the one not happy with myself, so I need to change. I need to find myself, then come see him. He can't like me the way I am, because I don't even like myself.

Well, I don't like myself right now because I've turned into a jealous, suspicious, snooping wife. And justifiably so. 

He spouts all this crazy philosophy. He says we should have no expectations. About our relationship or life in general. If you have expectations you'll only be disappointed. But we're married. Should I not expect him to be faithful? How do I argue with the illogical?


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## hiswife (May 12, 2010)

Do you think he's just waiting on me to leave?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't know - SHOULD you expect him to be faithful? You had an affair within two years of marriage. Shouldn't he have expected YOU to be faithful?

Honestly, I'm not trying to tear you down. You learned from your mistake. That's good.

But I really just can't fathom why you now feel you have a right to expect him to have to live by a higher standard, when YOU were the one who messed up first.

And know that I am NOT condoning what he's doing. This isn't about that. I think he's acting like a jerk. But like I said, different people deal with infidelity in different ways. Apparently YOUR infidelity broke something inside him, and this is the result.

Would he have cheated without you first doing so? Maybe.

But that's not your situation. 

So either accept that he will never love and trust you again, and keep him the way he is now, or move on.

I could advise you to expose the affair like I usually do, to try to end it, but I frankly don't think you're in a position to do so; and even if you did, neither of you is in a position to repair your marriage. He would just leave you.


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## hiswife (May 12, 2010)

I guess I thought taking all the abuse and accepting his first affair kind of made us even. I guess I assumed that since he didn't leave, that he wanted to be with me and by default that meant working on our marriage. And we did work on it for about the first 2 or 3 years after dday. I know I messed up. He says he's move on, and is thru placing blame, but I know he hasn't forgiven me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Exactly my point.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

hiswife said:


> And we did work on it for about the first 2 or 3 years after dday.


It sounds like you may have put additional effort into your marriage but he started pursuing other women soon after this. My guess is that he did not deal with this news well and convinced himself that he was no longer in a monogamous marriage, processed that and started to pursue other women...ah well, such is life, not my fault, she's the one that redefined this marriage.

So from that standpoint, I can see where he gave up on the idea that you will have a monogamous marriage and decided not to fret over that anymore.

From your standpoint, you made a mistake a long time ago and since that time, for many years have remained faithful within your marriage and have not been entertaining thoughts of an open marriage.

I think his way of dealing with the news of your infidelity has put you both in different places as far as what your marriage means today.

He has disconnected himself from the marriage and you are right, you cannot work on improving it while he has 1 foot out the door and no desire to work on things with you, as a couple. At this point, I would call his bluff and start working on you...do things you enjoy...excercise, new hobby...because until he stops pursuing other women and really focusing on your marriage you won't make forward progress on that front...but nothing can stop you from doing positive things just for you


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

This all goes to show that relationships are just a kind of mirror to that allow us to see who we are. And when we look deeply into that mirror and see that -horror of horrors- we are real people with FAULTS, some of us can't take it. 

All the problems he is having are with himself. And all the problems you are having are with yourself. Everything else that seems so tantalisingly true... is just window dressing.


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## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

really now...the marriage has been a lie for years...even he lived it..sucks but it's over unless you like torturing each other.


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## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

hi there, 
you were wrong to have an affair in the first place and he is being wrong now.......2 wrongs don't make a right......
I think it's time you two separate and take some time to think whether you want this marriage to continue.
He is kind of abusing you in a sense now and making you pay for what you did. 
If he can't deal with it, the two of you should end things.
Or you work things out without all the punishments. 
He might need you to walk away before he realizes what he could actually lose if he keeps this behavior up.
Why does he even want to stay with you, it's not very loving what he is doing.....
You either forgive each other or call it a day.
Why live your life like this.......This can not be good for either of you.


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## whynot (Apr 16, 2010)

I think he checked out when he heard the news. The news made him decide to do his little "experiment" BS... it was to get back at you or teach you a lesson bc of the way he is using it and telling you he cant like you bc look at you! That is emotionally abusive... not the kind of behavior that would come from a man who has honestly moved past it. If it wasnt intended to be used to get back at you he wouldnt have flaunted it and still be throwing it in your face. I know this from experience... my marriage is like yours in reverse... husband cheated for 7 years and had to stop contact with her a year ago when I found out for certain. He has been refusing sex and pretty much meeting any need of mine since. I started getting depressed and then pulled myself up found out his love busters and eliminated anything I was doing to hurt him, and increased acts of service (his love language)... nothing except contempt and still refusing sex. I am now having sex with another man... just sex, but I would never flaunt it and then throw it in his face the way your husband is. If/when I do tell, it will be calmly and matter of factly and all contact will end with the OM... I wouldnt dream of dragging it out in front of him like your husband is doing to you, even as much as my husband has hurt me.

Maybe he is staying with you to continue to punish you until he gets it out of his system. Im sorry he has chosen the way he has... its very destructive. 

I agree, if you do need to lose weight... lose it. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps bc you are going to need to have energy to get through whatever is coming next! There is never anything bad about getting into shape! Its good for your health and emotional well being.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Hi - 

I've been reading through your thread, and I was wondering if you'd mind if I added some thoughts of my own. You've gotten some good advice here, although, from my viewpoint, it's been hinted at, rather than stated clearly. I do feel for you - this is a tough thing to get through!



> He claims he doesn't have the eye-for-an-eye mentality. He really thinks he's above that. Remember, his affair was an "experiment" because I wouldn't give him answers. So it was my fault, not his. He denies it was for revenge or because he was owed a freebie.


People can always make claims one way and then act in an entirely different manner. In this case, it looks like he is SAYING he is not punishing you, all the while doing it with gusto. Right now, with all that is going on, it would do you a lot more good to pay attention to actions rather than words. There is hope for your marriage - if you want to keep it. When things improve, his actions will begin to match his words (so should yours!)

I can sense your anger at him here, and while that is certainly to be expected and it quite normal, I would advise you that in all of your conversation with your husband, you stay calm and kind. Acknowledge your anger, but don't take it out on him. There is a lot you can do to recover your marriage, and it all 
requires some hard work - including keeping a handle on your emotions. You'll be free to talk over your emotions with him in the future.



> As for keeping in contact with the OW, and all the others that he talks to, he says good friends are hard to come by, and he won't stop talking to them. When OW stopped contacting him, he actually contacted her and told her how to call him so that I wouldn't know. He thought she needed someone to talk to. (gag!) It's funny how all his good friends are women.


Your husband is carrying on an emotional affair. This means that he is rewriting history to match his need to continue the affair, and creating a fantasy world in which it is a necessary and moral activity. Keep that in mind whenever he talks about things.



> He says he's moved on, quit placing blame, etc. He says there's no reason for him to change. He is who he is, I am who I am, and he's accepted that. He's perfectly happy with himself. He says I'm the one not happy with myself, so I need to change. I need to find myself, then come see him. He can't like me the way I am, because I don't even like myself.


Regardless of what you did in the past, regardless of the lies you told him, what he is doing now is not acceptable. In fact, your past actions are irrelevant. His choices are what are relevant. 

1) He says he's moved on: this is fantasy talk, justification for the affair. Since he's moved on, it's now OK to cheat on his spouse. By 'moving on' he is showing you that his commitment to you (in other words, the vow he took) - was really just a lie. And you thought you were the only one to carry a lie throughout all the years of your marriage! An affair is a direct contradiction to your marriage vows. If he meant what he said, then he would not have an affair. If he only said it, but didn't mean it, then he was lying to you at the altar. 

2) He says there's no reason for him to change. Not true. If he wants to be an honorable man and not a liar and a cheat, he needs to change his ways. Those are reasons for him to change. What he is saying is that he WON'T change. He sees no incentive to change, therefore he doesn't want to. That can change, so pay no attention to this.

3) He is telling you to 'deal' with him, that he is 'who he is'. Meaningless statements. Everyone is who they are, I am not you, you are not me. He is not you, you are not him, etc., etc. What he is really saying is that he WILL not do what is necessary to fix the marriage.

4) He says he is perfectly happy with himself. This remains to be seen. As it stands right now, he is a lying, cheating spouse - and if that's the kind of person he is happy to be, I'll bet there is some oceanfront property in Arizona, near those beaches in Cheyenne that I'd be willing to sell you. What he is really saying to you is 'let me have an affair.'



> He spouts all this crazy philosophy. He says we should have no expectations. About our relationship or life in general. If you have expectations you'll only be disappointed. But we're married. Should I not expect him to be faithful? How do I argue with the illogical?


Yes, you should. He should expect you to stay faithful as well. Things happen. What counts is what you do right now. How do you argue with the irrational? You don't, although here's something you could easily point out: He says he should have no expectations about your relationship or life in general. Does he EXPECT you to accept that? If so, is that not an expectation? However, I would not advise that sort of technique.

Right now you have work to do. First, consider with all your heart if you wish your marriage to continue. And if you find that the answer is yes, then we can help you begin to take steps to repair, and then go beyond, to improve your marriage. There is hope.

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Now playing: Koaru Wada - Sou'unga No Wazawai
via FoxyTunes


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Well, as usual, I have an entirely different viewpoint. I think he was lying and cheating all the years he was asking you about your affair in the first place. For 20 years he asked you, which means he didn't trust you. How can someone spend 20 years distrusting someone over what they did 20 years ago? It makes no sense. Why would he keep asking? Why never take your word for it? Because he knows he, himself, was not trustworthy. He knew what he was doing but had you fooled to think him good and honorable. Why did he want to know so badly? To learn the truth gave him permission to do what he wanted to do all the long - to openly have affairs, to flaunt it in your face in revenge for deceiving him, and to mentally abuse you in the process. You are taking it because, as you said, he has torn you down on top of you feeling you deserve it. If I'm wrong, and I guess people react differently of course, but if I'm wrong, then I have to wonder from whence came this horrible bast**d of a monster. Surely not the mild-mannered, good, and honorable man he was for the last 20 years. I know Hurt and Pain are horrible identities, and he would naturally want to get back at you. But this is worse than awful. I think this is who he truly is and indicative of his own deceptions.

You, on the other hand, need to get away from him. I don't understand people telling you there is hope in this marriage. What that means is suggesting you sit there and take all of his abuse, which is what you are doing and are already inclined to do, which is result of the way he is treating you. Get out from under him and let him deal with his life the way it is. How long do you expect to pay? A lifetime sentence? Why haven't you had enough yet? You hope he will forgive you, but he isn't going to. Not as long he has you there to abuse you some more and make you pay. He's in love with himself right now, meaning he enjoys degrading you. Cut off his high supply and get out of there.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Susan2010 said:


> Well, as usual, I have an entirely different viewpoint. I think he was lying and cheating all the years he was asking you about your affair in the first place. For 20 years he asked you, which means he didn't trust you. How can someone spend 20 years distrusting someone over what they did 20 years ago? It makes no sense.


It happens a lot. Why? Because the nagging doubts compete for head space with disbelief. Doing this is no indication of his own lying and cheating. I think you are mistaken in your impression.



Susan2010 said:


> Why would he keep asking? Why never take your word for it? Because he knows he, himself, was not trustworthy. He knew what he was doing but had you fooled to think him good and honorable. Why did he want to know so badly? To learn the truth gave him permission to do what he wanted to do all the long - to openly have affairs, to flaunt it in your face in revenge for deceiving him, and to mentally abuse you in the process.


People want to know the truth of their lives. It will drive a person to the edge in pursuit of it. Wanting to know is not based on wanting to punish, to justify their own crappy behavior.

I really think you are off in your assumptions.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Well, as usual, I have an entirely different viewpoint. I think he was lying and cheating all the years he was asking you about your affair in the first place. For 20 years he asked you, which means he didn't trust you. How can someone spend 20 years distrusting someone over what they did 20 years ago? It makes no sense. Why would he keep asking? Why never take your word for it?


I do not differ from your viewpoint, Susan, but I do refrain from making outright judgments without more facts. In this instance, there are alternatives to consider. People quite often can sense that their spouse is not being entirely honest with them about something. Blind trust is not a healthy form of trust - it must be grounded on the knowledge of the reliability of the person in who you place trust. That is why so many people have trouble rebuilding trust after a bout of infidelity - the Disloyal Spouse has to be extremely open and honest over the entire time that trust rebuilds. 



> Because he knows he, himself, was not trustworthy. He knew what he was doing but had you fooled to think him good and honorable. Why did he want to know so badly? To learn the truth gave him permission to do what he wanted to do all the long - to openly have affairs, to flaunt it in your face in revenge for deceiving him, and to mentally abuse you in the process. You are taking it because, as you said, he has torn you down on top of you feeling you deserve it. If I'm wrong, and I guess people react differently of course, but if I'm wrong, then I have to wonder from whence came this horrible bast**d of a monster.


I tend to agree with you on this - the guy being described here sounds like he is playing a game called Now I've Got You, You Son Of A B****. If all the data presented is true, then there is a long row to hoe here - he waited a long time to be able to be able to spring this. The game sometimes takes a long time to set up. The true indicator of this is whether he has done similar throughout the marriage on other issues - when she makes a mistake, does it give him grounds for 'corrective' actions, for unending reprimands, punishment, etc. If he has done this before, it is pretty assured that he is doing it here as well. 



> Surely not the mild-mannered, good, and honorable man he was for the last 20 years. I know Hurt and Pain are horrible identities, and he would naturally want to get back at you. But this is worse than awful. I think this is who he truly is and indicative of his own deceptions.


Not necessarily. Remember that he is involved in an affair AT THIS TIME. This means that he is going to act in ways that totally differ from the person he has been in the past. It often seems like an alien has taken over the spouse. They talk and act in ways that are entirely contrary to their normal behaviors. Unless the affair ends, and recovery begins, there is no way to tell what is truly happening.



> You, on the other hand, need to get away from him. I don't understand people telling you there is hope in this marriage. What that means is suggesting you sit there and take all of his abuse, which is what you are doing and are already inclined to do, which is result of the way he is treating you.


Wrong. Absolutely. Wrong. Incorrect. Not thought out. Irrational jump to a false conclusion. You could not be more off track. Learn to ask questions for clarification before blathering foolish assertions. NO one is asking her to 'sit there' and 'take all his abuse,' nor do the words 'there is hope for your marriage' EVER imply such a thing. Taking a _single_ proposition, adding your OWN, and then forming a conclusion that is contrary to the intent, and meaning of the author of the first proposition is an informal logical fallacy, and betrays an unwillingness to consider things being said, a love of hearing one's own voice.

Moreover, the advice to divorce someone when things get uncomfortable, or difficult, is both a coward's way out, and a betrayal of the commitment made when vows are made. What if the person who started this thread wants to save their marriage? What if they determine to do all they can to honor their vows?

When I write there is hope, I refer to what CAN happen, provided steps 'X,' 'Y,' and 'Z' are taken, I refer to an outcome that is possible. I am not advocating sitting back and taking whatever happens. I never advocate such a thing. I am a strong advocate of PROACTIVE, or DETERMINED, marriage. Never passive.

Get out from under him and let him deal with his life the way it is. How long do you expect to pay? A lifetime sentence? Why haven't you had enough yet? You hope he will forgive you, but he isn't going to. Not as long he has you there to abuse you some more and make you pay. He's in love with himself right now, meaning he enjoys degrading you. Cut off his high supply and get out of there.[/quote]

Mixing great advice here with really bad. She DOES need to cut off his supply. She DOES need to set boundaries - which may include separation. But in NONE of this is DIVORCE a requirement. People can change, I've seen it happen. What needs to happen RIGHT NOW is for _hiswife_ to work on herself - she has a lot of work to do, a lot to learn - regardless of outcome.

And given that, there is hope for her marriage. My advice: if a divorce is to happen - let HIM do the filing, etc. Make it HIS decision. She is entirely free to divorce him - he has given her moral grounds, but that is HER choice, and if she inst4ead wants to work on the marriage, and wants to create a better, stronger and healthier relationship than the had before, that is also her choice.

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Now playing: Canned Heat - The Chipmunk Song
via FoxyTunes


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## hiswife (May 12, 2010)

Sorry, I didn't mean to disappear. We've had some family medical stuff going on. Thanks to everyone for your feedback.

After reading your responses, here are some comments/additional info in rather random order.

When we first got together it was HUGE. And I do think our love was real. I've read a lot about the initial love euphoria. I think my main problem and a big contributing factor toward my affair was that I was immature and totally lost when that euphoria wore off. I explain this, because one thing my husband wants me to acknowledge is that we were never "all that". If I was able to cheat, then we must not have been special. While I see his point, I don't necessarily agree with it. 

He has always claimed to be 100% honest in all things. Swears he never told a single lie till he was in his 20's, then it was work related. I find that hard to believe. Anyway, he says that he's changed now, and being the good guy never got him anywhere, so now he'll be like everybody else.

He says when he cheated in 2007, that he had every intention of me finding out, but in his mind, he had 20 years to tell me.

I used to be very immature, so I can't say what I would have done 20+ years ago if he'd had an affair. But, I do know now, that if things were reversed, I would not have had an "experiment" or affair, or be flirting, or anything. Even if we separate, I don't ever plan to date while we're still married. Maybe not even after that.

I'd be curious to hear what he tells other women. I know he rewrites history and flat out lies to them about his marrital status. 

Looking back on our marriage before dday, he was never abusive or hateful. We never fought. More like he was just kind of absent. He worked a lot. Had a lot of time consuming hobbies. And even when he was with us, he seemed distracted. I don't think he was cheating, it's more like he just didn't care enough to get involved. After the birth of our 2nd child, he said I could have as many as I wanted. But it was more like he'd be my sperm donor than a father. I decided 2 was enough. I wanted a 3rd, but couldn't handle any more by myself. I actually almost left him when the youngest was about a year old, because he wasn't helping, spent all his free time playing video games w/ the guys, worked when he didn't have to, etc. I was working full time and taking care fo 2 kids and a house w/out any real help from him, and he said I was being a drag. I threatened to leave and he straightened up for a while. So yes, we both have some anger there.

One of our counselors suggested that he was just waiting for an excuse to knock me around and start scr**wing around.

I have been watching my actions and words. I try to avoid all love busters. I don't argue, I try to do everything to please him, I let him decide things (he says in the past I've ingnored his preferences), I take care of everything (bills, house, laundry, yard, kids, medical stuff). H3ll, he's gotten to where he won't come to the table and I bring him all his meals in bed where he's watching tv and playing on his laptop. In other words I've spoiled him rotten.

I've been watching his actions and I don't like what I see.

The only thing I ever bring up is other women. I'll find out something, be mad as h3ll about it, confront him, and he'll turn it around on me, and I end up saying I'm sorry. He says at least he's being upfront and honest, unlike I was all those years.

I've been thinking a lot lately about the marriage vows. Yes, I broke them, but you're right, he's not living up to them either. He's not standing by for better or worse. I'm willing to take all this from him right now because I feel we have something worth saving. 

This question sounds b!tchy, and like I'm trying to excuse myself, and I don't mean it that way at all....but in marriage, when one partner breaks a vow (like me cheating), is that a deal breaker for the whole marriage? I mean I know it is legally, but morally? Like what if I wanted to divorce him because he became poor, or he left me because I was sick? Do you see what I'm trying to ask? "For better or worse" covers a lot of ground.

btw, he's got some free time this afternoon and I'm not sure where he is. Yes, I'm suspicious.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

hiswife said:


> This question sounds b!tchy, and like I'm trying to excuse myself, and I don't mean it that way at all....but in marriage, when one partner breaks a vow (like me cheating), is that a deal breaker for the whole marriage? I mean I know it is legally, but morally? Like what if I wanted to divorce him because he became poor, or he left me because I was sick? Do you see what I'm trying to ask? "For better or worse" covers a lot of ground.


I have read that the 3 A's are grounds for divorce: Adultry, Abuse, Addiction. I suppose all 3 could be worked through providing the offending party takes action to stop the behavior and the spouse can forgive.

In your case, you believe your marriage is worth saving and are willing to forgive his adultry. Unfortunately, he is not there. He seems to be 'stuck' not only with his inability to forgive but with going a step further and throwing his own beliefs out the window with his 'if I can't beat em join em' attitude.

My guess is his world was turned upside-down when he found out about your affair and he no longer felt 'safe' in the marriage. His behavior since then sounds like his way of dealing with the hurt and anger and he doesn't seem to be getting past that. If he does not want to try and is unable to forgive, it will be difficult to work on your marriage.

And to answer your question, if by deal-breaker you mean if certain things are grounds for treating your spouse disrespectfully and being unloving indefinitely then, no, it's not okay to punish someone indefinitely, especially your spouse.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Right now, you are trying to make sense of a man who is babbling. It cannot work. As long as he is in an affair state of mind, he is rewriting history, and twisting current events to justify his infidelity. Not only that, but he is using your feelings of guilt to keep you from actively advocating a recovery of your marriage. As long as he can keep you off balance, he will be able to keep up his fantasy love life. 

For example:



> When we first got together it was HUGE. And I do think our love was real. I've read a lot about the initial love euphoria. I think my main problem and a big contributing factor toward my affair was that I was immature and totally lost when that euphoria wore off. I explain this, because one thing my husband wants me to acknowledge is that we were never "all that". If I was able to cheat, then we must not have been special. While I see his point, I don't necessarily agree with it.


You are trying to point out that in the beginning, you were both deeply in love. He is giving you the STANDARD 'I never really loved you' speech that pretty much EVERY person who has EVER had an affair uses. 

Not only that, but he then completely ignores the statement you made: that when the love 'wore off' you fell for someone else (to get that feeling back.) He claims that you never had that feeling in the first place. He has rewritten your history, discounted you entirely and is telling you what you felt. 

This is standard behavior, and you do not have to take it.



> He has always claimed to be 100% honest in all things. Swears he never told a single lie till he was in his 20's, then it was work related. I find that hard to believe. Anyway, he says that he's changed now, and being the good guy never got him anywhere, so now he'll be like everybody else.


Justifying his affair. Being a good guy didn't get him the affair, so he needs to be a bad guy to cheat. As if this is somehow acceptable behavior. Ignore these statements. Ignore them. Ignore them! (Do I repeat myself?)



> He says when he cheated in 2007, that he had every intention of me finding out, but in his mind, he had 20 years to tell me.


So the 'good guy' (see above paragraph) had an affair, which he did not tell you about. And now he says...'oh, I was going to tell you the truth...in 20 years!' Two wrongs make a right? Not even close.



> I used to be very immature, so I can't say what I would have done 20+ years ago if he'd had an affair. But, I do know now, that if things were reversed, I would not have had an "experiment" or affair, or be flirting, or anything. Even if we separate, I don't ever plan to date while we're still married. Maybe not even after that.


Good for you.



> Looking back on our marriage before dday, he was never abusive or hateful. We never fought. More like he was just kind of absent. He worked a lot. Had a lot of time consuming hobbies. And even when he was with us, he seemed distracted. I don't think he was cheating, it's more like he just didn't care enough to get involved. After the birth of our 2nd child, he said I could have as many as I wanted. But it was more like he'd be my sperm donor than a father. I decided 2 was enough. I wanted a 3rd, but couldn't handle any more by myself. I actually almost left him when the youngest was about a year old, because he wasn't helping, spent all his free time playing video games w/ the guys, worked when he didn't have to, etc. I was working full time and taking care fo 2 kids and a house w/out any real help from him, and he said I was being a drag. I threatened to leave and he straightened up for a while. So yes, we both have some anger there.


So, 'good guy' checked out of the marriage MANY, MANY years ago. How is in ANY way the action of a 'good' guy? See how he is rewriting and recreating reality? 



> One of our counselors suggested that he was just waiting for an excuse to knock me around and start scr**wing around.


Now I've Got You, You Son Of A *****.



> I have been watching my actions and words. I try to avoid all love busters. I don't argue, I try to do everything to please him, I let him decide things (he says in the past I've ingnored his preferences), I take care of everything (bills, house, laundry, yard, kids, medical stuff). H3ll, he's gotten to where he won't come to the table and I bring him all his meals in bed where he's watching tv and playing on his laptop. In other words I've spoiled him rotten.


Don't go overboard on serving him. For example, serve dinner at the table. Make something he likes. And if he wants to eat it, he can come get it. Serve breakfast in bed on RARE occasions. Make such a thing a gift, not a slave activity... He is using you, and that is not acceptable behavior. There is a difference between filling Emotional Needs and letting someone beat you. I suggest you do some very hard soul searching to discover your boundaries, and then protect yourself by establishing them.



> The only thing I ever bring up is other women. I'll find out something, be mad as h3ll about it, confront him, and he'll turn it around on me, and I end up saying I'm sorry. He says at least he's being upfront and honest, unlike I was all those years.


It is obvious that he was not. Not only that, but he abandoned you years ago. Do NOT accept his plays to make you feel guilty. Sure, you may FEEL guilty, but you can simply acknowledge that to yourself, and then continue on with the fight for your marriage (and no, I do NOT mean 'fight' with him. I mean, the struggle to save your marriage.)

I've been thinking a lot lately about the marriage vows. Yes, I broke them, but you're right, he's not living up to them either. He's not standing by for better or worse. I'm willing to take all this from him right now because I feel we have something worth saving.[/quote]

Good. I am so glad to hear that. In that case, there are deliberate and specific steps you can take to work on recovering your marriage. And if it turns out that he leaves the marriage - you will still know you did the right thing. Your conscience will be clear. Like I said, there is hope. Never give up on yourself.



> This question sounds b!tchy, and like I'm trying to excuse myself, and I don't mean it that way at all....but in marriage, when one partner breaks a vow (like me cheating), is that a deal breaker for the whole marriage? I mean I know it is legally, but morally? Like what if I wanted to divorce him because he became poor, or he left me because I was sick? Do you see what I'm trying to ask? "For better or worse" covers a lot of ground.


It depends on your religious view. Some people have a view that vows mean nothing; you marry for only as long as you are happy (meaning that all marriages will end in failure). Others hold that adultery is grounds for divorce. However - NOTHING ever means divorce is NECESSARY. It is a choice you make. From my viewpoint, an affair is moral grounds for divorce, but I argue that nearly every marriage is not only salvageable, but WORTH saving.

For better or worse are absolutes. Something can always get better, something can always get worse. Hence, the contract is for life, unless the contract itself is broken by one or both parties who ignore one of the contractual obligations. And even then, forgiveness and reconciliation is possible. That is - as long as BOTH partners work at it. 

The goal in marriage recovery is to get both spouses working together to improve their marriage. As it improves, they become better friends, better lovers, better partners, and happier.

----------------
Now playing: Béla Fleck & the Flecktones - Hoedown
via FoxyTunes


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

swedish said:


> I have read that the 3 A's are grounds for divorce: Adultry, Abuse, Addiction. I suppose all 3 could be worked through providing the offending party takes action to stop the behavior and the spouse can forgive.


I don't know about Adultry - it's no big deal to me, but Addiction can be a mind bender, and abuse... it depends on the scale of it.


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## hiswife (May 12, 2010)

Is it possible to make him feel safe again? He says he knows I won't cheat again, but he doesn't trust anything I say, because he can't trust how I see things.

_".....you made me believe you were someone you're not. That's untrustworthy. I can't take you're word for anything. Not that you'd bald face lie to me again, but I don't trust your own conception of what is what and who is who. Find You then come looking for me._

I know I need to work on myself. For my own sake. I've let him walk all over me. I know he doesn't find a doormat attractive, but at the same time, he still expects me to act humble and always defer to him. But he would deny this. He says I should be thru w/ my guilt and not seek forgiveness from him. That I should just accept the way we are now. 

But starting on dday I was immediately plunged into the role of 2nd class citizen and he had the upper hand. He took full advantage of that for a long time, and while he's better about it, it's been hard for me to get my selfesteem back. From what he did to me, said to me, and the fact that I allowed all that to happen. He says he lost all respect for me when I didn't stand up for myself, but I truly believe if I had not accepted all his anger, if I had argued back, he would have seen that as me being unwilling to do what ever it took to keep him. So, me being the remorseful, guilt stricken wife backfired on me. But that was how I felt.

So, this may be the way we are now. We've both changed. I know that it was horrible for him, so of course it changed him. He says we can be special but not SPECIAL. That we're compatible, but he can't love me like he did. I understand this, but I think we can get back to a good place. After all the trauma (for both of us) in the last 4 years, I'm really just looking for some relief and......security. I miss the trust I used to have in him. I took it for granted. I would NEVER knowingly hurt him again, but I can't trust that he has my best interest at heart. 

He says I need to "find myself". How the heck do you do that? I'm serious. All the things I read sound very superficial and selfish. Lose weight, approve your appearance, start a new hobby, exercise. I'm a busy working mom with a special needs child. How do I find extra time for myself, and take care of everything, AND try to meet all my husband's needs? (sex, relax together, do fun things together, stay up late, date nite, etc.)


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## hiswife (May 12, 2010)

I think I have a real problem with boundaries.

I've asked the question before about how to determine your own boundaries and set them. I was told to just lay down the law. Sometimes I think my husband sees that as a challenge to get me to do something (an old boyfried did that too), and sees it as being inflexible and unwilling to try new things. 

OW are definetly a boundary for me, but to enforce that, I think it would take an ultimatium. I'm trying to avoid that.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Is it possible to make him feel safe again? He says he knows I won't cheat again, but he doesn't trust anything I say, because he can't trust how I see things.


It's not a question of making him feel safe. He is choosing to use this as a means to justify his behavior. He acknowledges that he knows you won't cheat again - he trusts you.What hs is doing is taking advantage of an action you did in the past to justify his actions in the present. The trouble is that NOTHING _justfies_ his current behavior in a moral sense. He is using your insecurity as a tool to shut you up. 

Quit allowing that.



> ".....you made me believe you were someone you're not. That's untrustworthy. I can't take you're word for anything. Not that you'd bald face lie to me again, but I don't trust your own conception of what is what and who is who. Find You then come looking for me...."


What a crock. That is pure gibberish. As Susan pointed out earlier, he spent...how many years?....not believing you were who you were. At NO point has he 'believed' you. Ever. From what you write, he has spent years using you, and digging for more and more opportunity to get more and more out of you. He takes, you give. He demands, you feel guilty and give in.

This is not a healthy relationship, and in order for improvement, it must change - BOTH of you must change.



> I know I need to work on myself. For my own sake. I've let him walk all over me. I know he doesn't find a doormat attractive, but at the same time, he still expects me to act humble and always defer to him. But he would deny this.[/quote-
> 
> He EXPECTS you to be a doormat, he always has (from what you write.) He may not find it attractive - but he most certainly expects you to be such.
> 
> ...


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Tanelornpete said:


> Here's what he is really saying:
> 
> He wants you to expect that he will never forgive you. To forgive you means to give up his hold on you, and he cannot have that! Hence, he needs you to keep feeling guilty. He just doesn't want you to bring it up. All he wants is for you to give and give and give.


Yes! I believe the main thing holding you back right now is that you have not forgiven yourself...every comment he makes refuels your guilt...you are human. you made a mistake...forgive yourself & stop allowing him to mistreat you...you DO NOT deserve it!


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## JBMB0922 (May 14, 2010)

To hiswife:

The fact that you cheated on your husband is so disgusting I think that you deserve everything that he can throw at you.

THIS IS WHAT YOU DID TO HIM!

Don't you think if you would have talked to him before having an affair about any problems you were having... you entire lives would have been differently? There were 4 million ways to deal with whatever issues you had before you cheated and you chose the 1 that destroys people's souls.

The reason he is soo pissed off and hurt is because he loves you more than you will ever know. He is coping with his hurt by lashing back at you and giving you a taste of your own medicine.

If the relationship continues this way it will only end in divorce and you should be wearing a scarlett letter around for the rest of your time.

Congratulations, you emptied the soul of another human being during your time on this earth.

Go ahead and try to give your reasons and explanations but its all just blah, blah, blah. If you had it bad before one of the 4 million ways to handle it would be to talk to him. Or if it was really bad, divorce him. Not by having another man stuff his c*ck inside you.

The bottom line is and always will be that you are responsible for doing this and not matter how hard you stomp your feet no one will see it differently. Unless of course they are mostly retarded (no offense to the actual handicapped people out there).

From a man who's had his soul destroyed by a woman.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

JBMB0922 said:


> To hiswife:
> 
> The fact that you cheated on your husband is so disgusting I think that you deserve everything that he can throw at you.
> 
> ...


Which, of course, justifies her husband having an affair - even before he knew she had one. I get it - it's WOMEN! They are to blame.

JBM, it doesn't come as much of a surprise to me that your wife turned to someone else. Affairs do not happen in vacuums, and the rage and bitterness that comes across in your very unhelpful and rather useless post reveals a person who has yet to learn to take responsibility for their own actions. Each person is individually responsible for their actions, and if you'd read this lady's posts, you'd see that her husband abandoned the marriage LONG ago, revealing a lazy, controlling and self-centered human being with little regard for his wife.

If you were to pay attention to the development of this thread, I'm guessing that it will develop that things in the marriage had gone south long before she chose to have an affair. This is not a moral justification for an affair - such an action is wrong - but it also helps to understand that people turn to others who seem to offer them the things their spouse is quite often actively refusing to give them (sometimes it is inadvertent).

In your case (I am not apprised of it fully) I'll bet you were an absolute, perfect gentleman, loving, kind, fully attentive, giving your wife everything she needed, so that she never felt left alone or hurt - and that she (because she was female?) evilly turned aside and chased after other men - just to hurt you, because she couldn't stand your perfection, couldn't stand the perfection of the marriage in which she was the evil partner, and had to do something - anything, to introduce evil into it. Am I close?

Anyway, back to the actual thread, enough of the hijacking. If you want to vent, start your own thread and talk about your glorious, sinless innocence and your ex's devilish, evil behavior. Leave people who are trying to repair things to us sinners.
----------------
Now playing: Trace Adkins - Someday
via FoxyTunes


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## hiswife (May 12, 2010)

Tanelornpete:
I took the quiz. I'm a ISTJ, and I basically agree with the description. I should also say that my son is autistic. Current theory is that autism has a strong genetic factor. While I don't believe I'm autistic or even Asperger's, I do see some of those traits in myself. (and my husband) I like things in order and on schedule. I'm not a very social person. Social situations used to beuncomfortable and awkward, now I just don't really feel the need. i.e. I'd rather shop alone. I don't need a group of girlfriends to go with me. 

My husband hasn't taken the quiz, so I don't know his type, but he likes spontaneity, he's always late, does everything to extremes (hobbies, drinking, exercising, home repair overkill), or he does it not at all. He has trouble doing things that HAVE to be done. Get to work on time, fix the leaky faucett, eat right, consistant exercise. 

I always thought we balanced each other out. And in a way we do, but I end up getting mad a lot of the time. Last night for example....we had talked and decided we were going out to eat. Date night. Kids were at grandma's. We agreed at 5:30 that we were going, we were both hungry, but it was 8:00 before he got ready to go. Some Friday nights it might be 10:00. He drinks, he plays computer games, he watches tv, he wants sex, talks on the phone, whatever. But I thought we were going to eat. I was getting headachy, and tested my blood sugar and saw it was getting low. I needed to eat, and told him that. I ended up snacking. It's like he's on a different clock than everyone else. Up all nite, sleeps all day.

And I know that sounds trivial, but it's hard to live with stuff like that all the time. But if I say anything he'd just say I needed to chill. But we're in this guilt/punishment mode tso he knows I won't say anything.

Just to clear something up....I had suspicions over the years, and I dont' think he was a squeaky clean as he claims, but I don't know that he cheated until after dday.

You're right, he would never bendover backwards if I caught him red handed in an affair. He wouldn't even apologize and promise not to do it again. He'd say "This is who I am right now" or "This is where we are now".

I've read about emotional needs/love languages and I can't decide what mine are. Is that strange? I think it may be acts of service, because that's usually how I show my love to other people. But I don't know it that's really my own love language or just that I miss it because he doesn't do anything at all for me now. I mean little things like helping bring in groceries, driving when we go out. For example we were out one night, in my car, I was driving and needed gas. Pulled into the station and he got out to pump the gas. I was shocked! And loved it.

JBM: I agree with everything you said. You sound exactly like my husband. Hearing that also got me suicidal more times than I could count.


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## JBMB0922 (May 14, 2010)

Ok,

I have had some more time reading and understanding emotional affairs.

I understand now that my comments on this were harsh and I was pissed off at the world when I wrote them.

I do stand by the fact that any type of affair is never going to be the correct answer.

To hiswife... don't take my comments directed towards you and your situation directly. Think of it as more as my ingorance of these affairs and the fact I have never done this too anyone else... I have no idea what the "other side" is actually thinking when they do it.

I will never understand these affairs but some of these posters like Tanelornpete.... have really good advice. Dont listen to me, listen to them.

I basically gave you my deepest and innermost barbaric thoughts on the subject as a whole.

Tanelornpete.... You are a a subject matter expert in this area and I do not disagree with most of your material... You actually should be given the Nobel Peace Prize. Even though that's kind of cheapened after Obama got it without really doing anything, lol. Don't take that too seriously my political posters.


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## JBMB0922 (May 14, 2010)

Tanelornpete

I am not a perfect person, never have been, never will be. No one is. I take responsibility every day, for my actions.

I believe communication is the number 1 secret to success in every relationship. Also, being truthful and honest. Deception and lies are only poison to it.

I understand that you think I am some POS for posting what I did. I really didn't like you talking about me and my situation the way you did but again, I understand since you had very little to pull from.

Tanelornpete.... Now that I think about it... it's actually what I needed to hear.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

JBM - 

I do apologize for coming across so strongly - I could have written my post more lovingly (which is my general policy.) No, I do not think you are a 'POS' for posting what you did - I think (as I did then) that sometimes a quick 2x4 to the head is the best way to stop some destructive thinking. Looking back over what I wrote, however, I wish I'd done it differently.

In any event - I do wish you all the best, and am here to offer whatever I can that may pass for advice...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I took the quiz. I'm a ISTJ, and I basically agree with the description. I should also say that my son is autistic. Current theory is that autism has a strong genetic factor. While I don't believe I'm autistic or even Asperger's, I do see some of those traits in myself. (and my husband) I like things in order and on schedule. I'm not a very social person. Social situations used to beuncomfortable and awkward, now I just don't really feel the need. i.e. I'd rather shop alone. I don't need a group of girlfriends to go with me.


Just to let you know, your desire to see things in order, and on schedule, and your inclination to be alone have absolutely nothing to do with autism. They are parts of you - the 'J' part of your personality thrives on schedule and order; you are 0introverted - you get your energy from being alone....



> My husband hasn't taken the quiz, so I don't know his type, but he likes spontaneity, he's always late, does everything to extremes (hobbies, drinking, exercising, home repair overkill), or he does it not at all. He has trouble doing things that HAVE to be done. Get to work on time, fix the leaky faucett, eat right, consistant exercise.


Sounds to me like he is ENFP, perhaps INFP - you might want to look those up to see how close I am to guessing (I'm decent at it...) In any event, a lot of the issue you may have had over the years is in distinct and quite possible contradictory personality styles. This is not a bad thing - it just means that you will have to find ways to communicate to each other in ways that actually make sense to the other person. You probably don't understand HOW a person could be so unconstrained by time, he could never figure out why you are so uptight about being somewhere when you say you will be.



> I always thought we balanced each other out. And in a way we do, but I end up getting mad a lot of the time. Last night for example....we had talked and decided we were going out to eat. Date night. Kids were at grandma's. We agreed at 5:30 that we were going, we were both hungry, but it was 8:00 before he got ready to go. Some Friday nights it might be 10:00. He drinks, he plays computer games, he watches tv, he wants sex, talks on the phone, whatever. But I thought we were going to eat. I was getting headachy, and tested my blood sugar and saw it was getting low. I needed to eat, and told him that. I ended up snacking. It's like he's on a different clock than everyone else. Up all nite, sleeps all day.


Again, this points to an *NFP type personality - my wife and I are similar (in reverse.) Over time we've managed to work out a pretty good system of communication, and both of us are pretty happy about our lives. Regarding time: we generally schedule things about half an hour or so earlier than they actually happen so my wife has time to get there... It can frustrating for us 'J' types, but then, we can frustrate them just as easily...



> And I know that sounds trivial, but it's hard to live with stuff like that all the time. But if I say anything he'd just say I needed to chill. But we're in this guilt/punishment mode so he knows I won't say anything.


No, this is not trivial. It affects your marriage. And it will need to be addressed in order for things to improve. Good news, however - that particular problem is quite fun to overcome.

Check out this forum site for all KINDS of information. In particular I love the threads on 'You Know You're An...(insert Type here)...When'



> Just to clear something up....I had suspicions over the years, and I dont' think he was a squeaky clean as he claims, but I don't know that he cheated until after dday.


For a bit more clarity - did he cheat AFTER he found out you had lied to him for 2 decades - or before? I'm a but hazy on the time line here...


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## hiswife (May 12, 2010)

My affair was in 1986. DDay was 2006. He started approaching women a few months later. As far as I know he didn't actually have a PA till 14 months after dday. It lasted 3 months. He says it was the only PA, but I'm not so sure. I know there's been lots of flirting, talking, trying with several OW. 

Like I said in an earlier post, I don't believe I'm autistic, but see some traits. Autism has some very distictic characteristics, and if you meet the criteria, you get diagnosed. There's no blood test. (darn it) But when you look at the traits individually, it's stuff most all of us do to some extent. But true autism or asperger's takes that extent to a whole other extreme. I think we're all on the spectrum. Some just more than others. 

Anyway, didn't mean to get off on my autism rant, it's just that autism is such a big part of our lives.

I'll read up on what you think is H's personality type.


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## hiswife (May 12, 2010)

Tanelornpete:
You mentioned that there were specific steps I could begin to take to repair my marriage. Could you please explain? 

A detailed list would be helpful


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Sure! Keep in mind there are two 'sections' to getting your marriage back and affair proof: 

A) Ending the affair.
B) Fixing the marriage.

Have to do them in order. Also keep in mind that there is no guarantee that anything you try will work. Sometimes you can be 100% perfect and still end up divorced. 

So my first bit of advice is to prepare yourself to be able to live alone. Learn what it means to be self-sufficient, to avoid seeking others to fill your needs. Even if your marriage survives, this is some very important stuff to know. If you know, deep inside, that you can be happy alone, you'll be able to handle anything that comes up in your relationship - and you'll have a lot to add to it.

Here are the steps I recommend to get your marriage back:

1) *Gather evidence* of the affair. Get texts, phone records, take pictures, copy emails, etc. Get enough evidence to satisfy you that this is truly an affair. And then store that information somewhere safe, so that it cannot be destroyed or deleted.

2) *Confront*. Sit down with your spouse and the evidence you have, and simply state that you know an affair is happening. Let your spouse know that you love them, and are their best friend. Respectfully request that the affair end right away. Ask for email passwords, access to the phone, etc. Ask for complete transparent honesty. 

This step is a statement you make. You are not there to argue, or make deals, etc. This is simply a notification that you are now in full 'marriage-protection' mode and the affair is your target. Make sure your spouse knows you want the marriage to work.

Pay NO attention to any temper tantrum, threats, lies, denials, etc. You spouse is free to do whatever they want, as long as they don't harm you. All you are doing is making a plain statement. 

Leave it at that - walk away, go find something else to do, etc. It would be very nice if your spouse turned around and asked you what they could do, etc. But don't expect it.

If this does not bring your spouse onto the same path as you - toward reconciliation and recovery, move to the next step:

3) *Disclose* This is an optional step, which can coincide with the nest, although I consider this the more moral way to do this. Go to a trusted 'wise counsel' - a pastor, rabbi, parent, etc., and tell them what is going on. Show them the evidence, and ask their advice. The idea is to enlist the support of someone who has some considerable influence over your spouse - someone they might well listen to.

If this is ignored, or you do not have such a person to whom you can turn, then:

4) *Expose* the affair. Take the evidence you have and show it to family members, friends, etc. Anyone who is both pro-marriage AND has any kind of influence over your spouse.

In the meantime, ALWAYS be doing a 'Plan A': 

5) *Plan A* (this is also the 'carrot and stick' plan): Be the very best spouse in the world. DO all you can to meet your spouses' emotional needs, refrain from ANY action that has the sole purpose of harming them - any action that makes them feel unloved, etc. (Look up Emotional Needs and Love Busters for help on what these actions are.)

If your spouse still continues the affair, even after exposure, you should move into a limited time where you simply do Plan A. Make sure this time is limited: not more than 6 months or so. DO it too long, and ALL the love you ever felt for your spouse will be gone, and you will not have the desire to even work on the marriage.

After that time limit, move to Plan B. We can provide much more information on that later - it is a drastic step, very effective, but very difficult. 

6) *Plan B* This is where you remove yourself entirely from your spouses' life. You allow them to experience the whole gamut of consequences of their choices. They will find out exactly what life is without you. Do not take this step lightly, or too soon. You must do a very good Plan A first: the reason - Plan A builds the understanding in your spouse of what a great person you are - and when you go to Plan B, all of the sudden that person is gone...

My suggestion is that you don't initiate divorce. Let your spouse do that if it is to happen.

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Now playing: Fats Waller - The Jitterbug Waltz
via FoxyTunes


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Another point in Plan B - and remember that this is NOT a step designed to get your spouse back, but rather to save yourself from anguish - is that people have affairs because it allows them to have two people meeting their needs. They FEED off of that cake-eating. Keeps the affair going. For instance, the OW may give him great sex (typically a guy's #1 Emotional Need) and admiration (typically #2); but YOU meanwhile are still at home meeting his need for domestic stability (washing his clothes), family care (bringing up his kids), etc. 

Going Plan B makes that cake-eating fall flat on its face. You're gone. He has to wash his own clothes, cook his own food, find some other way to do all the other mundane things YOU used to provide. Suddenly he has to start depending on OW to meet those needs, or do it himself. If that's what she was after (a new husband), it may work for awhile, but it was based on deceit, which is bound to crop up again for at least one of them. If that's NOT what she was after, and he now expects her to be his new 'mommy,' she'll get tired of it real quick.

Mind you, I am NOT saying Plan B will get your DH back. But it sure won't help the affair any, either. 

Of course, by then, you'll have moved on and realized how great life can be without his BS, and you may not ever want him back anyway. Even if he comes crawling.


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## hiswife (May 12, 2010)

I've read a lot on the Marriage Builders site, so I'm familiar with the plans.

How can I get proof that he's actively in an affair? I've given this a lot of thought and can't come up with anything. He works in IT, and he's a thousand times more computer literate than I am. I can't install a keylogger or anything. He only uses his employer supplied laptop that is password protected. He only uses his employer supplied cell phone, and clears all his messages and call logs.

This in itself is a HUGE red flag to me.

I have thought about a voice activated recorder for the car, but I think most of his chatting is online. I've thought about checking the milage on his car, but there's several motels close to his job, so the milage would be too close to argue.

His paystub is electronic and I can't see it. So I can't tell if he's really going to work or claiming vacation time. All I see is the direct deposit amount and it looks fine.

I think he may be hiding money from his 401K, but again, I can't log on and see it.

He says he's not cheating now. That the women he's friends with don't want him as anything but a friend. But he's secretive. If nothing else, it's rude. If I ask for transparency and all his passwords, he could just open another email account. And, he'll give me the line of "This is where we are right now. Learn to live with it".

Any suggestions?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'd be hiring a PI.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

You betrayed him while you were in your prime of physical desirability. A time when he was most vulnerable to the onslaught of male competition. Unfortunately, your betrayal validated his fears and wounded his confidence in his own masculinity... seemingly beyond repair. He has obviously been living in a state of self doubt ever since. Your affair made him feel weak and powerless when you were the prize that he had fought for and believed he had gained. Now he sees you not only as far less desirable physically, but deserving of justified comeuppance. His current actions personify revenge in its purest form. This dish has been served extremely cold.


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