# Bi-Polar freakshow



## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Someone wrote this in a blog, and it fit so well, I'm stealing it (and altering it to meet my own perspective)-

"The part that sucks is bipolars can essentially do what they want, and YOU have to clean up after them. Its the most selfish disorder I have ever seen. THEY can run off, spend money, alienate YOUR friends, employers, family, whatever, but YOU, the “normal” one, have to put up with it, fix the problems they create for themselves, take care of the kids and bills, deal with the incredible amount of fallout, and just keep sucking it up till you cant take it anymore. If I knew this was what was going to happen, I would have never bothered with getting married."

Right now. I just SO feel this way. My wife is just the most horrible person I've ever met and I truly hate her. I hate myself for what I've become in dealing with her for 15 years now. My family is utterly destroyed, as is hers. I have few friends, and even the ones I have don't want me bringing her around, ever. And I don't. I can't. She's toxic.

When we got married, I made a vow to stay by her side in sickness.. and I have. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and I know every brick. She's been on meds, seen counselors, and it appears she cannot be fixed, or even improved. 

God, I hate her. So much. I've been loathing this for a long time, but tomorrow I guess I will be contacting a lawyer and starting the process. I truly wish I never met her.


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## hehasmyheart (Mar 11, 2010)

I'm wondering if my husband has some level of this, maybe some narcissistic personality also. I don't put labels on it, I just think it's plain old bad character (with him anyway). He's never been diagnosed, nor would he EVER admit anything is wrong with him. He led us to bankruptcy, and still when I bring it up, he downplays it.

I know where you're coming from with the resentment. He now says he's "changed", only after my EA. He says I'm just not a person who can forgive. True character doesn't change. It's a constant waiting game for the next angry outburst or big purchase.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Kaboom said:


> Someone wrote this in a blog, and it fit so well, I'm stealing it (and altering it to meet my own perspective)-
> 
> "The part that sucks is bipolars can essentially do what they want, and YOU have to clean up after them. Its the most selfish disorder I have ever seen. THEY can run off, spend money, alienate YOUR friends, employers, family, whatever, but YOU, the “normal” one, have to put up with it, fix the problems they create for themselves, take care of the kids and bills, deal with the incredible amount of fallout, and just keep sucking it up till you cant take it anymore. If I knew this was what was going to happen, I would have never bothered with getting married."
> 
> ...


Good for you. Life is too short to tolerate a relationship like that. I spent 15 years with my crazy ex before I finally got out, as well.

Realize that you've most likely developed very strong co-dependent tendencies as a result of this relationship. I recommend "Codependent No More". 

Stay strong. Expect the craziness to escalate once you file for D.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> *Bi-Polar freakshow*


Kaboom, perhaps your W is bipolar. That is not what you are describing, however. Rather, the behaviors you describe here and in your previous threads sound far closer to BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Specifically, the traits you mention -- the temper tantrums lasting several hours, the selfishness, the feeling of entitlement, always being "The Victim," verbal abuse, and black-white thinking -- are classic traits of BPD.


> Bipolars can essentially do what they want, and YOU have to clean up after them. Its the most selfish disorder I have ever seen.


No, it is not. A bipolar person's problem is not being _selfish _but, rather, emotionally _unstable_ due to changes in body chemistry. However, it is true that bipolar sufferers often get blamed for selfishness -- and vindictiveness and many other traits of BPD -- because half of them also suffer from BPD. That is the finding in a recent large-scale study of nearly 35,000 American adults. See Table 2 at Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.


> She's been on meds, seen counselors, and it appears she cannot be fixed, or even improved.


Because bipolar disorder is caused by changes in body chemistry, about 80% of bipolar sufferers can be quite successfully treated by simply swallowing a pill. In contrast, BPD is not caused by body chemistry but, rather, by the dysfunctional manner in which one has been thinking since early childhood. This is why medications _cannot make even a dent_ in BPD. 

Instead, BPD is treated with years of weekly therapy sessions that teach the BPDer how to replace their childish ways of thinking with mature ways of thinking. Hence, pills are prescribed for BPD sufferers only because BPD typically is accompanied by one or two clinical disorders (e.g., bipolar, anxiety, ADHD, or depression) that CAN be treated with meds. I mention this because your W's lack of success with pills may be the result of her behavioral problems being largely due to BPD, not bipolar.


> She had an abusive childhood.


Bipolar is believed to be genetic and is not caused by childhood abuse. BPD, however, is believed to be caused by childhood abuse or abandonment (together with genetics). Indeed, 70% of BPDers report that they had been abused or abandoned in childhood. 

Kaboom, you are not capable of diagnosing your W's issues. That is, you cannot determine whether her BPD traits are so severe that they satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD. Only professionals can do that. You nonetheless are capable of spotting all the warning signs, i.e., strong occurrences of BPD traits. To do so, you only have to read about the warning signs so you know what red flags to look for. You will find that there is nothing subtle about BPD traits such as temper tantrums, verbal abuse, and rapid flips between loving you and devaluing you.

If you would like to read more, an easy place to start is my description of the 12 differences I've seen between the behavior of a BPDer (i.e., my exW of 15 years) and a bipolar-1 sufferer (i.e., my foster son). That description is in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/physical-mental-health-issues/59344-confused.html#post1175425. If that description of BPD traits rings a bell, you will find a more detailed discussion of BPD traits in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. Take care, Kaboom.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

It's medical condition like diabetes. It can be very frustrating to deal with people who don't seek medical care for their own diseases just like someone who has oh I don't know, black-outs or epilepsy or something like that. But on the whole, they're not looking to screw you over they're out of control because of bad chemistry. Statistically they are far more likely to commit suicide then harm anyone else overtly. Living with them is very wearing, again, when they are untreated because the side effect of all of that is very destructive and corrosive on their family, relationships and such. That's not to say they can't be world class a-holes, abusive, mean, indifferent, callous and mean. They can. But then again so can cancer patients.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Kaboom,

Really sorry that you are going through this. Read what Uptown posted. He is a great resource and an asset to this forum. 

I could definately feel your anger and resentment on your post. Its good that you are putting some feelings in writing as it helps relieve that chronic stress that unstable partners produce. 

Its threads like this that really should be a wakeup call to all of us with kids. We should be teaching our children to recognize mental illness and not get married to somebody to them. I sympathize with folks with mental illness but I honestly think if you are mentally unstable, you should not marry or be in a committed relationship unless you give them full disclosure.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Good for you. Life is too short to tolerate a relationship like that. I spent 15 years with my crazy ex before I finally got out, as well.
> 
> Realize that you've most likely developed very strong co-dependent tendencies as a result of this relationship. I recommend "Codependent No More".
> 
> Stay strong. Expect the craziness to escalate once you file for D.


You gave away 15 years. Looking back how many years should you have given up, max?


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

treyvion said:


> You gave away 15 years. Looking back how many years should you have given up, max?


I don't look at it like that. I have two great sons from that relationship.

If there were no kids involved, I would've gotten out Year 1 of our marriage. She split me black on our wedding night, and it was a wild ride for 15 years after that...

Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and I didn't know then what I know now.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> I don't look at it like that. I have two great sons from that relationship.
> 
> If there were no kids involved, I would've gotten out Year 1 of our marriage. She split me black on our wedding night, and it was a wild ride for 15 years after that...
> 
> Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and I didn't know then what I know now.


"Split you black"? Busted your eye or lip?

The wild ride wasn't for your enjoyment right?


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

Kaboom said:


> Someone wrote this in a blog, and it fit so well, I'm stealing it (and altering it to meet my own perspective)-
> 
> "The part that sucks is bipolars can essentially do what they want, and YOU have to clean up after them. Its the most selfish disorder I have ever seen. THEY can run off, spend money, alienate YOUR friends, employers, family, whatever, but YOU, the “normal” one, have to put up with it, fix the problems they create for themselves, take care of the kids and bills, deal with the incredible amount of fallout, and just keep sucking it up till you cant take it anymore. If I knew this was what was going to happen, I would have never bothered with getting married."
> 
> ...


I completely feel and relate to your pain Kaboom because my ex had bi-polar and manic depression and was on several meds for it, but each time she went off them all hell broke loose and she too tried to destroy my life in the midst of it all! I quickly wised up and got the hell out of there after 2 years and 3 months together, and I never ever want to see her again!


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## Very Sad (Mar 31, 2013)

I'm right there with you. I've been married to mine for 24 years now. I'm feeling stuck and hopeless. He's bi-polar, but from reading up above, definitely BPD. I don't know what to do. Just be glad you aren't a stay-at-home mom like me. I have no way to leave and support myself and my kids because I've only had part-time jobs all these years, so my degree is worthless.


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

Very Sad said:


> I'm right there with you. I've been married to mine for 24 years now. I'm feeling stuck and hopeless. He's bi-polar, but from reading up above, definitely BPD. I don't know what to do. Just be glad you aren't a stay-at-home mom like me. I have no way to leave and support myself and my kids because I've only had part-time jobs all these years, so my degree is worthless.


I totally feel for you because life with someone who is bi-polar or manic depressive is not easy at all and takes a special kind of patience and understanding.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...one thing that helps, honestly, is _not picking up after them_. The thing is, particularly with BPDs, that they have enough abandonment issues that they tend to not leave on their own. Not so much with NPDs.

...so...if they alienate your friends...apologize, explain that they're mentally ill, and stop taking them to visit your friends.

...if they spend a ton of money, maintain separate checking accounts. When they go bankrupt, let them.

...if they assault someone, let them spend some time in jail. And go back when they miss their required classes.

...if they keep you up late at night, either leave or arrange for a 5150 pickup (involuntary hospitalization).

...if they waste your time seeking validation for crazy, just explain that they're mentally ill and that you won't waste your time on pure BS. Then walk out.

Of course, this doesn't solve the problem of being in a R/S with someone who is useless and unreliable, but it is a start. There, if money permits, maid service and paid childcare are invaluable.

...also...although BPD is not particularly amenable to medication, medication often clears up accompanying comorbidities. (depression, anxiety, et cetera)

...of course, blog.bennettandbennett.com/2010/07/10-practical-rules-for-dealing-with-the-borderline-personality.html is a better plan.  Notice the first rule?

Now, if you end up in a situation where you're dependent on a BPD. That really sucks. And I wish you well... Do consider what you'd actually get out of divorce. Typically, depending on the state, that's half of everything accumulated since the divorce + child support + (after 24 years of marriage) probably 40% of his salary for life. (I am not a lawyer and laws vary according to state.) That, combined with a job would probably let you raise your children in some comfort.



--Argyle


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

You monopoles look pretty weird to us too. Why aren't you screaming at the idiot in front of you at the checkout line? That's what they're there for.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Kaboom, perhaps your W is bipolar. That is not what you are describing, however. Rather, the behaviors you describe here and in your previous threads sound far closer to BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Specifically, the traits you mention -- the temper tantrums lasting several hours, the selfishness, the feeling of entitlement, always being "The Victim," verbal abuse, and black-white thinking -- are classic traits of BPD.No, it is not. A bipolar person's problem is not being _selfish _but, rather, emotionally _unstable_ due to changes in body chemistry. However, it is true that bipolar sufferers often get blamed for selfishness -- and vindictiveness and many other traits of BPD -- because half of them also suffer from BPD. That is the finding in a recent large-scale study of nearly 35,000 American adults. See Table 2 at Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.Because bipolar disorder is caused by changes in body chemistry, about 80% of bipolar sufferers can be quite successfully treated by simply swallowing a pill. In contrast, BPD is not caused by body chemistry but, rather, by the dysfunctional manner in which one has been thinking since early childhood. This is why medications _cannot make even a dent_ in BPD.
> 
> Instead, BPD is treated with years of weekly therapy sessions that teach the BPDer how to replace their childish ways of thinking with mature ways of thinking. Hence, pills are prescribed for BPD sufferers only because BPD typically is accompanied by one or two clinical disorders (e.g., bipolar, anxiety, ADHD, or depression) that CAN be treated with meds. I mention this because your W's lack of success with pills may be the result of her behavioral problems being largely due to BPD, not bipolar.Bipolar is believed to be genetic and is not caused by childhood abuse. BPD, however, is believed to be caused by childhood abuse or abandonment (together with genetics). Indeed, 70% of BPDers report that they had been abused or abandoned in childhood.
> 
> ...


Uptown,
Sorry to be getting back to this thread so late- I took the time to read through what you've written, as well as the other thread "list of hell".. your attention to detail and long explanations are much appreciated. 

I've struggled with the "diagnosis" aspect for years. It didn't actually happen until I had her involuntarily committed to the psych ward for 72 hours one day when she made a very distinct and believable threat of suicide after a "fight" via email.

They diagnosed her with depression and gave her meds, and then prescribed meds and told her to seek professional help. She came out much better, and we saw the psychiatrist monthly and a counselor weekly. During that time, she only got worse, but the quality of care was also terrible. The psych would only see her for about as long as it took to write the scripts, and the counselor was a disheveled mess who frequently was late to the appointments, and just nodded and agreed with everything she said.

Benefits ran out, money ran out, the counseling ended. We see the psych once every 90 days only to renew the script.. and now shes addicted to the anti-depressants, actually has extreme (more than usual) mood swings and inability to cope. She pops the 'emergency meds' daily, if not 2-3x daily.. these things are tiny pills that would have a horse tranquil.. and yet, she's still a monster.. but now without those drugs, she would be even 10x worse. I have always questioned their diagnosis.. and still do. I had thought she was a combination of bipolar, depression, GAD, and what they call martyr syndrome (which is not an official condition, but damn it feels real to me!).

BPD makes a lot of sense- while she shares traits with depression, GAD, Bipolar, etc.. There were always a couple of traits for each that she doesn't match.. but with BPD, she's dead on all 9 of the common list.

So, I see you mention your ExW a bit.. I can only assume you were unable to "fix" the situation.. I'm curious how bad yours got and whether or not I should stay...

I didn't leave her over this, but I'm still mad about it- as well as feeling hopeless and frustrated. I too have noticed that I'm starting to display the symptoms you discussed in the hell thread within myself. Such as splitting, but also resentment, and others have recently pointed out that I'm negative and miserable. I was ALWAYS the happy-go-lucky guy.. what happened? Am I now doomed to live HER life?

I will give those books you suggested a try. Thanks again for your insight.. Any further insight would be greatly appreciated.


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

Wow. I guess I'm lucky my man stood by me for so long, through my dx, hospitalizations, med changes (BPs should go easy on ASd and need a strong MS like lithium.) I would be dead without him, and my kids wouldn't have been raised to be 4 yr. college material despite my horrible influence and for the record, my man never cleaned the house or took over my responsibilities for more time than a brief hospitalization. The stigma about MI is still alive and well, and I feel sorry for your wife.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...my wife...BPD/NPD, probably mild autism, and a history of abuse. Please note - my wife didn't have a history of physical damage to her brain...so your wife is likely different.

...how bad it got? Weekly beatings, edged weapons, 48+ hour abusive rages. Poor behavior to our children. On the bright side, she rarely self-harmed. (It is hard to tell - extremely clumsy woman.) She brought 3 or 4 marriage counselors to the point of yelling at her.

...following her arrest...and my offer of divorce and loss of custody...
...she started about 3 years of DBT. Her BPD behaviors (rages, splitting, abandonment) improved a lot.
...and after a lot of medication changes...anti-anxiety and anti-psychotic drugs helped noticeably.
...and I practiced changing my communication style to be more aggressive...which helped a lot too.

...but she still had regular sessions where she attributed all of our problems to me being an Aspie.

...so we started going to Aspie groups. And she started crying. And fit in perfectly. And those sessions stopped.

...and now...she's not normal. But, she has probably one panic-rage per month. (mostly displacement and trouble recognizing emotions) And those resolve quickly. Other than that, the Aspie oddities have been more persistent, but are irritating rather than unbearable.

I don't think it is so much a stigma as a recognition that staying with a MI person is usually more difficult and damaging than staying with a physically ill person.

--Argyle


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Kaboom said:


> So, I see you mention your ExW a bit.. I can only assume you were unable to "fix" the situation.. I'm curious how bad yours got and whether or not I should stay...


As with you, Kaboom, my marriage lasted 15 years. Actually, that is very typical for folks who are living with a BPDer spouse. What happens is that we caregivers usually are unwilling to walk away from a sick loved one. We therefore hang on even though we would be far better off leaving. 

It usually is the BPDer that walks away from us. What happens is that, as the years go by, she becomes increasing fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging. At the same time, she becomes increasingly resentful of her spouse's inability to fix her or make her happy. All of this is exacerbated when the spouse starts to build stronger personal boundaries -- as I did and you did. This is very scary to the BPDer because she misinterprets it to be a sign of abandonment. She therefore usually will preemptively abandon her spouse before he has a chance to do it to her.

In my case, her "abandoning me" took the form of her calling the police and having me arrested on a bogus charge of "brutalizing" her. Because it was done early on Saturday morning, I was in jail nearly three days before I had a chance to be arraigned before a judge and released. During that time, my exW obtained a R/O barring me from returning to my own home for 18 months (the time it takes to obtain a divorce in this State).

As to whether you "should stay," my usual advice is that the spouse should walk away from the BPDer if she is not working hard in weekly therapy to control her issues -- and if there are no young children involved. When there are young children, I advise the spouse to do whatever he decides is in their best interest. 

If you decide to stay because she agrees to see a therapist, you will not be home free. You will still be stuck with the problem of trying to figure out whether she is actually working hard in therapy or, rather, simply playing mind games with the therapist (which BPDers are prone to do). My BPDer exW, for example, never improved despite my spending a small fortune to take her to weekly visits -- for 15 years -- to six different psychologists and several MCs. Keep in mind that, because BPDers are always greatly improving their behavior every few weeks (in the same way that smokers are always quitting), it can be extremely difficult to determine whether she is making any progress.


> I'm starting to display the symptoms you discussed in the hell thread within myself. Such as splitting, but also resentment, and others have recently pointed out that I'm negative and miserable. I was ALWAYS the happy-go-lucky guy.. what happened?


If your W is a BPDer, you may simply be acquiring many of her nasty behaviors. If so, this process is called "picking up fleas." It is what often happens when you've been living with a BPDer for many years. At the same time, you likely will find that you have been walking on eggshells for so long -- not being yourself -- that you've nearly forgotten what the "real you" behaves like.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

well isn't this a great conversation. You paint a bleak picture. I agree though. Her resentment has been clearly growing, and so has mine. Whereas I was always the caring and attentive "problem solver", when she lashes out now, I just see red and cop a "bring it on" attitude.. I know it isn't helping, but at the same time, I'm kind of wishing that my fighting back will cause her to leave. I don't know..

At any rate, I think she's planning on leaving soon- she's working now, been losing weight, and focused on her physical appearance after almost 15 years of letting herself go.. I think she's definitely planning to bail within the next year. I'm actually happy about that.. How sad is that?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Kaboom said:


> Someone wrote this in a blog, and it fit so well, I'm stealing it (and altering it to meet my own perspective)-
> 
> "The part that sucks is bipolars can essentially do what they want, and YOU have to clean up after them. Its the most selfish disorder I have ever seen. THEY can run off, spend money, alienate YOUR friends, employers, family, whatever, but YOU, the “normal” one, have to put up with it, fix the problems they create for themselves, take care of the kids and bills, deal with the incredible amount of fallout, and just keep sucking it up till you cant take it anymore. If I knew this was what was going to happen, I would have never bothered with getting married."
> 
> ...


Actions have consequence Kaboom. We can all do what we want but we all pay consequences of our actions including bipolars. No one is immune to this unless they're given a free pass by people around them. By tolerating what would normally not be tolerable you've probably played your own codependent part in her actions.

Good for you for reaching a point where her negative actions are not defendable. For reaching a point where the way you're treated matters (as it should).


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Regarding decisions for people with children, http://www.acestudy.org/files/Gold_into_Lead-_Germany1-02_c_Graphs.pdf

is useful reading. 

Basically, most adverse outcomes in adulthood are driven, ridiculously strongly, by adverse experiences in childhood. The adverse experiences in childhood in the survey included sexual abuse, a mentally ill parent, divorce, and a history of violence in the family (either towards the child or the partner). These adverse outcomes include obesity, suicide, drug use, diabetes, heart disease... There are arguments that genetic predispositions may account for some of this effect - but - the effects are, for epidemiology, really, really strong. (Much, much stronger than most genetic studies.)

From the paper, 
"Childhood sexual abuse->Chronic depression->Morbid obesity->Diabetes mellitus->Hypertension->Hyperlipidemia->Coronary artery disease,Macular degeneration, Psoriasis

This is not a comfortable diagnostic formulation because it points out that our attention is typically focused on tertiary consequences, far downstream. It reveals that the primary issues are well protected by social convention and taboo. It points out that we physicians have limited ourselves to the smallest part of the problem, that part where we are comfortable as mere prescribers of medication. Which diagnostic choice shall we make? Who shall make it? And, if not now, when?"

Translation: F*k it. Doctors are just sweeping up the wreckage of poor childhoods with pills. CPS does more good than we do.

It is suggestive that the point score for the Adverse Childhood Experiences study gave equal weighting to each adverse exposure. Based on my experiences with epidemiologists, they would have tested for noticeably different weightings and found nothing.

Anecdotally, I can observe that the children of BPDs at BPDFamily have been very, very visibly damaged by their upbringing. To scary levels. (albeit there's self-selection...) But, yah, think...clinically depressed, obese, alcoholics with PTSD, anxiety disorders, and a tendency to seek out abusive partners.

Or to put it another way, if your partner is mentally ill and abusive, the children are arguably significantly better off without them in their lives. There are practical issues relating to custody...but...yah.

That said, there is probably a difference between clinical BPDs and people with BPD tendencies. 

@Kaboom If you know what you want, why waste time waiting for her to leave? Life's too short.

--Argyle


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

argyle said:


> There are arguments that genetic predispositions may account for some of this effect - but - the effects are, for epidemiology, really, really strong. (*Much, much stronger than most genetic studies*.)


Argyle, thanks for the reference to the very informative ACE (Adverse Childhood Experiences) Study, the results of which first started appearing in 1998. Those results are particularly impressive with respect to the effect of ACE on incidence of obesity and drug addiction in adulthood. Certainly, those results support your view that raising a child in an abusive environment can have serious adverse consequences when the child reaches adulthood.

However, with respect to the narrower issue of what causes personality disorders (PDs), the jury is still out on the nature/nurture debate. Some studies of twins suggest a strong genetic link. For example, a 2000 study of 221 twin pairs (a mix of identical and fraternal pairs) found that heritability accounts for 60% of PDs generally and 69% for BPD specifically. See A twin study of personality disorders. [Compr Psychiatry. 2000 Nov-Dec] - PubMed - NCBI.

Other twin studies have yielded lower figures -- the lowest of them being only 37% for BPD's heritability. See summary of study results at Family Study of Borderline Personality Disorder and Its Sectors of Psychopathology. The reported range, then, is 37% to 69% for BPD. This, at least, is my understanding.


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## anonfrank (Apr 18, 2013)

Interesting thread. I think what the OP quoted in the first post is true of bipolar disease. I have been the spouse to clean up the mess.

I am still there because my wife is willing to take her medications and at least try to get better. I dont hate her, I hate her condition and what it has done to her. Further, she actually likes her Pdoc for the most part so that helps. Its interesting that someone brings up not abandoning a sick spouse...that is exactly where i am. ive been treating this the same as i would if she lost her legs or had another physical injury. I admit to being frustrated, though, at times, and I have vented on this forum as needed.

I wish you the best. The fact that you say you are actually hating your spouse indicates there is more to the clinical picture...and BPD could well fit.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

anonfrank said:


> Interesting thread. I think what the OP quoted in the first post is true of bipolar disease. I have been the spouse to clean up the mess.
> 
> I am still there because my wife is willing to take her medications and at least try to get better. I dont hate her, I hate her condition and what it has done to her. Further, she actually likes her Pdoc for the most part so that helps. Its interesting that someone brings up not abandoning a sick spouse...that is exactly where i am. ive been treating this the same as i would if she lost her legs or had another physical injury. I admit to being frustrated, though, at times, and I have vented on this forum as needed.
> 
> I wish you the best. The fact that you say you are actually hating your spouse indicates there is more to the clinical picture...and BPD could well fit.


I'm really not entire sure 100% on either.. A couple of months ago, I was sure it was Bipolar.. then after Uptown's post about BPD, it seemed to fit like a glove.. but the more I dig into BPD, the less she seems to fit. In fact, if every condition listed 10 symptoms, she seems to fit 6-7 of every single one of them, but none of them does she hit all 10. In the few situations where she hits on more of the symptoms, it's often a "well, sort of" instead of a definitive "yes!" to some of the answers.

I've spent 16 years with her.. I sat down and counted them up earlier... I often wonder how these medical professionals can make determinations after sitting down for 30 minutes once a week, after only a few hours of face time- and arguably when the patient is on "good behavior" and not acting the true ***** she is.

So I want to try to list all her "Symptoms" and really lay out on paper exactly her "issues" and see if maybe we can't at least rule out some conditions, if not rule it to be something.. As mentioned - it's near impossible even for the professionals to get proper diagnosis, so what's the harm in us trying to at least get an inkling?

So here it is:

1) She will grow angrier than a circumstance calls for. For instance, they screwed up her order at the drive thru.. you would think this is a reason for nuclear war. She will call them up and scream, berate, and curse them out for it. As if they did it to personally insult and aggravate her. I rarely ever get take out because of this now.. and when I do.. I always open everything and do a double-check to make sure.

The one oddity, she always orders everything special.. gotta hold this, add that, put this on the side.. it becomes so convoluted that it's a wonder they can even get it right at times. I sometimes think she does this simply to cause a problem.

2) She will grow angry in situations that don't call for it at all. Life throws us curveballs. I know this, I understand some people have lower tolerance for it.. but my wife is simply amazing in her lack of capacity to deal with even the most common and simple daily ones.. I never even realized how many curve balls we all deal with from day to day, without thought, most of us just handle things and move on. Not her.. it will ruin her day. And once it's ruined, there's no salvaging it.

2.5 (addition). She cannot recover from adversity in the day. We go out, something goes wrong, and there's just no possible way I can find to recover. The night is ruined. So what we planned something months ahead, so what we spent hundreds on this night. It's over, we're going home. All because a waiter forgot to put her salad dressing on the side, or because she stepped in gum, or something else that just doesn't mean the world is ending- but to her, it did.

3) She will avoid sleep (willfully or not, unknown), and become especially irritable when lack of sleep is present.

4) She will lash out and permanently "banish" those closest to hefself / our marriage at the first belief of ill-will. As it stands, she refuses to speak with anyone in her family, many in mine, and most of my friends.

5) When a circumstance happens where she hears part of a conversation, or information out of context, she will automatically fill in the blanks with the worst possible guesses, which are always the worst possible violations against her. Even when the blanks are filled in and the story makes all the sense in the world, she will not back down from her original conclusions, ever.

6) Expects everyone, everywhere, to conform to her standards of etiquette, social expectations, grammar, and manners. Situations such as eating with strangers will enrage her if they don't "properly" use their napkin, say the wrong thing in conversation or use the wrong grammatical context, or simply interrupt her during conversation. I'm not talking jumping up and flipping the table over.. but she will absolutely get snarky with them and make it clear she doesn't like them. Most people actually seem pretty tolerable when around her and attempt to just redirect the conversation elsewhere. Sometimes others will call her out, and usually it ends up in a hulk-enraged argument where we have to leave early, and often-times I have to (secretly) send out apologies later, or make many apologetic personal calls.

7) She is a know-it-all. She's never wrong, even when she clearly is; and suggesting she has something wrong like a simple detail, is to invite to a disastrous fight.

8) If an argument does ensue, and she's proven wrong, the argument will then take a sharp turn south, right into her personal bank vault of everything I (or anyone else) ever did wrong, and by some gift of crazy-magic, she will immediately summon 6 or 8 degrees of separation to link that wrongness to the problem at hand. As irrational as it is, it is also impossible to argue against.

9) Shopping. OMG this is the worst. She needs something simple like pants. It doesn't help that she's overly picky.. she has a mental image of exactly what color, size, style, and price of what she wants, and increasingly the "simple stock" world we live in all but guarantees that she will never find those pants. But her expectation is that those pants should be at the first place we stop. When this happens, she reacts like the store, and everyone in it, is out to get her- they hate fat people, they hate women, they hate HER. Each additional store we go to adds more water to her magical pool of rage, which after two stores is like the size of lake Erie. Finish the day without finding it.. and her week is now shot. And so is mine. I'm going to be walking on eggshells for several days, if I'm lucky.

Sadly, when they do have exactly what she wanted, the guaranteed fail is when she tries it on, and doesn't like the way it looks (on her). She's fat. She doesn't like the way anything looks on her. Sometimes this alone will end a shopping trip. At least half of the time, I'd say. Frankly more than 80% of shopping trips end in arguments, and me sleeping on couch for several days to several weeks.

10) Diet on, diet off, diet on diet off. I'm expected to know when to suggest eating, and when not to. Some days she won't eat dinner, and other days she will pig out. Not only am I supposed to know exactly what she is doing that day, but I'm supposed to also be able to guess what food she wants... mostly because....

11) Every answer is vague. Some are quite specific, but I've learned that there is hidden vagueries within the answers. She may have told me to get fruit.. but she didn't say which ones. If I ask for clarification, I get "you don't really know me at all".. I hear that a lot. If I guess what I believe are her favorite 5 and buy them all, she will undoubtedly have expected #6. By the way- I get that 'you don't know me at all' accusation at least once every other day- it's spoken in the manner that I should know exactly how she feels at all times.. ties into a lot of this list.

12) She has admitted she sometimes feels that she has no control over her anger and (re)actions.

13) Everything. Everything, is MY fault. And oh.. I don't just get random vague blame... No.. that would leave implications that she's wrong.. No. I get set up. Whenever we have to do anything, such as the dreaded shopping, going out to celebrate a holiday, visit someone, or seek entertainment of any kind.. she will only make the vaguest of decisions, and leave the rest to me. I have to decide where we will buy those pants, where we will see fireworks, where we will go. Because of this- If things don't go exactly how she 'envisioned' them to (or better), it's going to be my fault, and she will absolutely make it a point to fly off teh handle and blame me for messing everything up. She will use accusations like- I should have known better. I should have planned better. If I try to push her into the decisions, she just gets flustered and angry and it will end in a "forget it! why are you complicating everything".. it's seriously as no-win for me as it gets.

14) being spontaneous is simply not possible. 

15) Everything is negative, always negative. 

16) She occasionally insinuates suicide, but only once did she ever actually threaten it. Mostly it will be remarks that wouldn't legally be considered as such. She knowingly dances on this line, usually gauging my reaction. This is most common when I get angry and argue back or stand my ground. 

17) Speaking of gauging reactions- ALL of mine are gauged.. any hesitation in reaction and she will assume the worst in my thoughts, when in reality the first thought is always "how can I answer that without setting her off?". 

18) She is sexually screwed up. I can't think of a better way to say it. She's both HD and LD.. depending on the day. Most of our issues are with her expecting mind reading, and the whole expectation thing as mentioned in the #9 shopping ... she will have a mental script in her head of exactly how she wants it to go, and will fly into a rage when I go off the script that I haven't seen... For this reason, the last 3 years especially have been disastrous in the bedroom. I won't initiate anymore, and gave up. I've tried reasoning with her on this, I'm super HD, and it kills me that I can't just have intimacy with her because I can't read minds.

So mostly she takes care of herself, and I take care of myself.. I know..> TMI, right? But I've been thinking a LOT lately about getting into an EMA, simply because I NEED some intimacy or at least some kind of human on human sex. Wife has made it clear that her price tag is out of my budget.

19) Silent treatments. Not only am I expected to read her mind, but when I screw something up, I have to play the guessing game as to what it was. I don't really play it anymore, and go silent as well. We sometimes will go days without talking except when necessary.

20) Lack of friends. She has such high expectations of any potential friends, and a billion excuses for each one she shrugs off- they never meet her standards, or even if they appear to, at the first sign of any ire, she will blow up at them and remove them from her life. She constantly complains about not having any friends, but can't just accept anyone for who they are.

21) Can't keep a job. This one has been a real problem for us. 5-10 years ago, we were able to barely eek by on my salary alone, and my field has been chaotic to say the least in this 'new economy'. She used our child as a reason not to work for the last 10+ years, but about two years ago, I no longer accepted that, and told her that she needs to contribute. At the time, we were still doing ok.. but I mostly wanted just to get her out of the house.. I had thought a lot of her problems were related to staying at home..

Since she's gone into the workforce again, she's sabotaged every job she's been at. She always manages to find one girl to be her mortal enemy, but everyone else is out to get her too. Her record at any job since we've been married is 4 months. She will usually just up and quit when she "can't take it anymore", or in some cases, just been fired for her BS.

But now with the economic collapse and the cost of living skyrocketing.. I NEED her to work, so every time she leaves a job and spends 3 months on average unemployed, we fall behind, then it takes 6 months to catch back up.. so we just keep falling further behind it seems. I got lucky recently and got a super raise, but that seems to only have her empowered to riskier behavior at her current job.. I had warned her after the last 4 week-er that we can't take her losing any more jobs.

22) She just can't focus on one thing.. for instance, with the jobs.. she's a HS grad, no real college (she didn't get through 1 semester before quitting), and only qualified to do basic secretarial work (and terrible at answering phones), or basic general labor. So she wants to further her education. But she's wants to be a nurse today, a book-keeper tomorrow, and a computer tech the next day. God only knows what she wants to be when she grows up next week, or next month. 

I'm terribly hesitant to invest in an education that I know she will drop out of. I know that sounds pessimistic, but we've been thru this, she went back to college right before we got married, and couldn't handle 3 classes, and dropped out. Keep in mind, this was her second time going to college.. Leading to my next point....

23) She never follows-thru with ANYTHING. She says she will do this tomorrow, or that the next day. She says she will take care of dinner tonight, or make the appointment for our kid at the doctor.. none of it ever gets done. Hobbies, projects, always start and never complete. She's started at least 4 dozen various hobbies or projects over the years, and I cannot recall even one she ever made to the halfway point, much less completed. 

24) She's lazy. She doesn't clean, she doesn't do anything except watch tv and play facebook games. Even though she's working now, 100% of her downtime is wasted on nothing. I do all the cooking, cleaning, laundry, child-care, planning, grocery shopping, school activities, even gassing her car. She's literally incapable of doing anything. It wasn't always like this. She was independent when I met her.. this all changed after marriage and childbirth. She became fat, lazy, unmotivated, and dependent..

And this is where my disconnect with discussing it here always ended- when I complain in other areas of this site, people would be quick to criticize me for enabling her behavior, saying I have "nice guy syndrome", and that I'm playing the victim.. I'm just frustrated.. I walk on eggshells, and none of them seemed to understand how trapped I feel.

25) Martyr syndrome. While not classified as a specific mental disorder, I guarantee you this exists. Maybe under a different name, but basically let's say I'm going to the grocery store, and she asks me to pick up 5 things for her. Lets say on top of the other 20 things I wanted to get, that I forget one thing.. I get home and she asks, where is "X"? Oh crap, I'm sorry, I forget that. 

My first instinct is 'solve the problem'. OK, I forgot something, innocent mistake.. I will just go back and get it. Problem solved.

Nope, it doesn't work that way. If I go back to get it, I'm making her out to be the bad-guy. So she will seeth "NO.. don't go back out!"- utterly challenging me to either defy her by going back out, allowing her to remain angry at me for not getting the item, which ultimately backs me into a no-win situation. Or she will be like "NO, I WILL GET IT", and then lambast me over why I asked her if she wanted something just to show up without it, as if it was a personal insult. This happens on far more levels than just groceries.. it happens with everything. It's like she just nails herself to the cross and plays the crucified role with everything.


So... I'm sure I've forgotten other "traits", but there's a pretty deep picture into my daily life. Uptown, I'm especially interested in your insights on this. Thanks


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Kaboom said:


> The more I dig into BPD, the less she seems to fit. In fact, if every condition listed 10 symptoms, she seems to fit 6-7 of every single one of them, but none of them does she hit all 10.


ExplodingMan, please keep in mind that BPD and other personality disorders are not diseases that one "has" or "doesn't have." Rather, a PD is only a collective pattern of behaviors that we all exhibit to some degree. This is why PDs are called "spectrum disorders." And this is why a person can be diagnosed as having BPD even when they strongly satisfy only _five of the nine _BPD traits. Hence, your W's not having 3 or 4 of the BPD traits does NOT rule out her having full-blown BPD.

At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits all nine of the BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. At a normal level, these traits generally are beneficial and essential to our survival. They become a problem only when -- due to genetics and/or childhood abuse -- the traits become so strong that they distort one's perception of other peoples' intention and motivations.

Rather, at issue is whether your W's BPD traits are so strong and persistent that they are making your life miserable, pushing her friends away, and undermining your marriage. Not having met her, I don't know the answer to that question. I nonetheless am confident that you can learn to spot all the BPD warning signs by simply learning which traits are on the list. There is nothing subtle about traits such as temper tantrums and verbal abuse.

Significantly, the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD is set so high that they serve only the needs of the courts and insurance companies. The criteria are not intended to help abused spouses like you. The reality, then, is that BPD traits can make your life miserable even when they are far below that diagnostic threshold for "having BPD." That is, a person satisfying only 70% or 80% of the criteria may be nearly as difficult to live with as one satisfying 100%.


> Uptown, I'm especially interested in your insights on this.


The short answer, in my view, is that most of the behaviors you describe are classic BPD traits -- together with some narcissistic traits as well. A longer answer will follow in a separate post below. At this point, however, I will make several cautionary remarks:


There is little chance of your ever being told that your W "has BPD." If she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong traits), it is very unlikely she will stay with any therapist long enough for him to spot it. Because BPDers generally are good actors, it may take him several years to see destructive behaviors you see all week long.
Even if her therapist does spot the BPD, it is unlikely he will tell her -- much less tell you -- the name of her disorder. There are several reasons why therapists routinely withhold this information from BPDers (for their own protection). I discuss those reasons at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909.
If your W is a BPDer, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion is to see a psychologist who has not seen or treated her. Go for a visit or two and describe the behaviors you've been seeing for 16 years.
Relying on your W's psychiatrist for candid advice during the marriage is as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during the divorce. It is important that you be advised by a professional who is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests and those of your child -- not hers.
The APA's Diagnostic Manual contains too many categories of PDs, resulting in too much overlap in the traits. Eventually, the APA likely will replace this categorical approach with a diagnostic methodology that is trait based. Until then, if your W satisfies the criteria for having one PD, she likely will satisfy the criteria for two or three other PDs as well. Indeed, three-fourths of the people diagnosed with BPD also are diagnosed with one or two others (results of a 2008 study of nearly 35,000 American adults).
In addition to having other PDs, a BPDer also is likely to have several of the "clinical disorders" such as GAD, depression, bipolar, and adult ADHD. That 2008 study found, for example, that 74% of BPDers also suffer from an anxiety disorder and 32% also major depression. See Table 3 at Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Uptown, you paint as bleak a picture as can be imagined. We fought again last night, since we shopped earlier it was seemingly pre-determined. Even though I was pre-emptive in including her in every decision made, she still found a way to blame 100% of the day's problems on me.

So I calmly and rationally pointed out to her about how I included her in every decision, and then as I wrote no more than an hour or two prior, she reached into her vault of crazy and pulled out every instance of something I screwed up where I didn't consult her first and then proceeded to tell me how I've screwed up her entire life. I just got exasperated.

I almost just told her she has BPD. Almost. I did start out by telling her that the problem is her, which as you can imagine did not go over well. She turned it all on me, claiming she's normal, and that *I* have mental issues and need to go seek help. I mistreat her, I hold her down and keep her down, etc. blah blah blah. Now I apparently need professional help because she can't be happy?

I came to realize after our argument last night that there's no way she will ever accept any responsibility for our problems. Everything will always be my fault, and I simply can no longer live this way. I'm going to speak with a lawyer about the fastest and least destructive way out of this living hell.

She was diagnosed with depression, but I honestly believe it's like you say- that they often piggy-back on each other. She may be depressed, but that's not the root of her issues. I really believe she's got a strong touch of bipolar, and GAD mixed in there too, but from what I'm reading, it seems the BPD is at the center of it all.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

One thing to add:

I've seen it mentioned several times by you as well as in the reference posts and articles you've provided that BPD's are excellent actors- and I agree.. When we did counseling a couple of years ago, she was always the model wife in the presence of the counselor, and even today when she goes to the psych for her regular visits, she portrays someone who is perfectly adjusted with her meds... 

Which leads to me wonder- If they are such great actors, doesn't that in itself kind of prove that they KNOW their behavior is unacceptable? Doesn't that just lend proof in the pudding that they do it because nobody will challenge them? What if it's all a giant ruse.. the whole exploding when confronted is a human trait when you get caught lying.. doesn't that in of itself lend reason to just push them into a total meltdown just to see the walls of lies and manipulation just come crumbling down?

I'm just so sick of dancing around the eggshells.. it seems like she just needs her world to come crashing down for any recognition to happen, yet every article and professional says that is a gigantic mistake. It doesn't add up


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> *Martyr syndrome*. While not classified as a specific mental disorder, I guarantee you this exists. Maybe under a different name,


I believe you, Kaboom. Actually, it is classified as a specific mental disorder. It's called "BPD." It is believed to result from childhood abuse, as your W says occurred to her. The abuse (together with genetics) is believed to freeze the child's emotional development at the level of a 3 or 4 year old. Unfortunately, this happens at the very time that the child is trying to develop a strong, integrated sense of who she is. The result is that, without years of intensive therapy, a BPDer will be stuck with a fragile, unstable sense of who she is.

To the extent a BPDer has any sense of self, it is the false notion that she is "The Victim." Lacking any other sense of identity, the child keeps a death grip on that false self image, refusing to let it go. She therefore spends the rest of her life looking for frequent validation of that false self image.

This means, if you are the spouse of a BPDer, she will tolerate your presence only if you play either of two roles: savior and perpetrator. During your courtship period, for example, you were viewed as her "savior" because her infatuation over you held her two fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay.

Following the wedding, however, the infatuation evaporated. This means that, except for increasingly rare good times, you will be perceived as "The Perpetrator," the cause of her every misfortune. I explain that in more detail at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522, which I mentioned earlier.


> She may have told me to get fruit.. but she didn't say which ones. If I ask for clarification, I get "you don't really know me at all".. I hear that a lot.


As I said, she is "The Victim" so you must be "The Perpetrator." As you say, she is setting you up for the blame that is to follow.


> Everything. Everything, is MY fault.


Like I said, when she is not splitting you white (as "The Savior"), she will be splitting you black (as "The Perpetrator"). With BPDers, this black-white thinking will be evident in the way they categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- and will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other, in just a few seconds, based solely on a minor statement or action. It also will be evident in her frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "You ALWAYS..." and You NEVER...."


> She is a know-it-all. She's never wrong, even when she clearly is; and suggesting she has something wrong like a simple detail, is to invite to a disastrous fight.


BPDers are so filled with self loathing that the last thing they want to find is one more thing to add to the long list of things they hate about themselves. They usually are far harder on themselves than they are on other people. This means that they categorize themselves as "all good" or "all bad" in the same way that they do it for other people. 

Hence, when a BPDer recognizes she has made a mistake, the consequences are severe: she perceives herself as "all bad" instead of as "all good." This distorted perception is extremely painful due to all the shame she has been carrying inside since early childhood.

Because the pain is so great, the BPDer's subconscious works 24/7 protecting her from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes that by projecting the hurtful feelings and bad thoughts onto the spouse. This projection is such a wonderful ego defense because it works entirely at the subconscious level. 

This means it is entirely guilt free, allowing the BPDer to escape the painful feelings of shame, because her conscious mind is unaware that the projection is occurring. The result, as you've seen thousands of times in 16 years, is that the allegations coming out of her mouth are so absurd that you've simply marveled that an adult is capable of saying such nonsense while holding a straight face.


> If an argument does ensue, and she's proven wrong, the argument will then take a sharp turn south, right into her personal bank vault of everything I (or anyone else) ever did wrong.


Yes, BPDers typically will keep a list in their heads of every infraction -- real or imagined -- that you've ever done. And, then, for even the simplest of disagreements, they will pull that entire list out and beat you over the head with it. 

This is why it is important that you not share any embarassing secrets with a BPDer -- who likely would use it against you at some point in the future by telling your daughter and family. BPDers can become very vindictive while splitting you black. It's not that they have bad character or weak morals. No, regardless of what good character and morals they have, they will perceive you as Hitler incarnate and will treat you accordingly.


> By some gift of crazy-magic, she will ...link that wrongness to the problem at hand. As irrational as it is, it is also impossible to argue against.


That "crazy magic" is called "rationalization" or "making excuses." It is an unconscious defense mechanism in which intense feelings are logically "justified" and explained in a somewhat rational or logical manner. We all do this. 

The problem is that, whenever we experience intense feelings -- such as strong anger or infatuation -- our judgment goes out the window because the feelings distort our perceptions of other peoples' intentions. This distortion is so well known that, by the time we reach high school, most of us know that we should keep our mouths shut until we have time to cool down. And we know we shouldn't buy the ring until we've had at least a year to let our feelings settle out. 

Well, BPDers do that rationalization too -- only more so. Moreover, because they lack good impulse control, they tend to speak out before they cool down. And because they lack control over their emotions, they experience very intense feelings far more frequently than the rest of us. The result is that BPDers do not take time to intellectually challenge their intense feelings. 

Instead, they accept feelings as self evident "facts" -- and proceed to come with whatever rationalization they can produce in a few minutes. If you challenge that rationalization, they usually will quickly replace it with another one that is equally absurd -- and then another one after that. 

At this point, if you are still arguing, the BPDer will not even blink when reverting back to the orginal rationalization she had started with -- thereby going full circle to get to an argument you had disputed at the beginning. Her true objective, of course, is to avoid the intense feeling of shame she would suffer when acknowledging a mistake (which to her means she is "all bad").


> Everything is negative, always negative.


It is difficult to think of yourself as "The Victim" when life is a bowl of cherries and rainbows. BPDers therefore are often very negative about everything occurring in their personal lives. It took me 15 years to learn that it is impossible to make these unhappy people feel happy. 

Accordingly, one of the nine BPD traits is "Chronic feelings of emptiness or boredom." BPDers therefore have a bottomless hole -- an emptyness -- inside that they don't know how to fill up. Trying to meet their endless needs and demands is as pointless as trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun.


> Being spontaneous is simply not possible.


No, it is not possible with a woman who has the emotional development of a four year old. Like young children, BPDers do not handle unexpected changes in their plans well. They do not have the skills to do self soothing and to redirect their own thoughts. With your young daughter, for example, you will see this inflexibility when you are driving her to the water park. To create a hissy fit, all you have to say is "Honey, we need to drop by Uncle Dave's house on the way -- for just an hour -- so I can help him unload his van."


> She will grow angrier than a circumstance calls for. For instance, they screwed up her order at the drive thru....She will call them up and scream, berate, and curse them out for it. As if they did it to personally insult and aggravate her.


This behavior is called _"paranoid ideation_" and is one of the nine BPD traits. Mosby's Medical Dictionary defines it as _"an exaggerated, sometimes grandiose, belief or suspicion, usually not of a delusional nature, that one is being harassed, persecuted, or treated unfairly."_

Specifically, BPD trait #9 is "Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms." With BPDers, the paranoid ideation is said to be "transient" because it comes and goes and is not always present. The vast majority of BPDers are said to be "high functioning," which means they have little or none of the paranoid ideation when dealing with casual friends, business associates, and total strangers. The reason is that none of those folks pose a threat to the BPDer's two great fears. There is no close relationship to be abandoned and no intimacy to cause the feeling of engulfment. 

This is why the vast majority of BPDers can be caring and attentive around total strangers and casual friends -- but will go home at night to abuse the very people who love them. BPDers who are lower functioning typically have trouble dealing with the strangers and casual friends.


> When a circumstance happens where she hears part of a conversation, or information out of context, she will automatically fill in the blanks with the worst possible guesses, which are always the worst possible violations against her.


This is another example of paranoid ideation.


> Each additional store we go to adds more water to her magical pool of rage, which after two stores is like the size of lake Erie.


It just seems that way, Kaboom. If she has strong BPD traits, she has been carrying that "magical pool of rage" (the "size of lake Erie") since early childhood. Hence, the sales people in the stores don't have to do a thing to CREATE more anger. Rather, they only have to do or say some trivial thing that TRIGGERS the enormous rage that is always there.


> I'm going to be walking on eggshells for several days.


You should stop doing that because it is harmful to both of you. This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused spouses) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells_.


> The one oddity, she always orders everything special.. gotta hold this, add that, put this on the side.. it becomes so convoluted that it's a wonder they can even get it right at times. I sometimes think she does this simply to cause a problem.


As I noted earlier, the vast majority of BPDers (those having strong traits) also have one or two other PDs together with one or two clincial disorders such as depression, bipolar, anxiety, and OCD. You may be seeing some traits of OCD. Granted, being overly demanding and feeling a strong sense of entitlement are BPD traits. Yet, what you are describing here -- being so extremely fussy and particular -- is not a BPD trait (unless it is somehow explained by the paranoid ideation I mentioned above).


> So what we planned something months ahead, so what we spent hundreds on this night. It's over, we're going home. All because a waiter forgot to put her salad dressing on the side, or because she stepped in gum.


My BPDer exW was the same way. I quickly learned not to take her on expensive vacations because, most of the time, she would start a fight over absolutely nothing a few days into the vacation. With BPDers, the very WORST fights tend to happen on the heels (or during) the very BEST of times. 

This occurs because, with a BPDer having a very fragile sense of who she is, she quickly starts feeling suffocated and engulfed during intimate occasions -- as during an intimate weekend or a great vacation. The feeling is very scary because the BPDer feels like she is losing herself in your strong personality -- as though she is evaporating in thin air. 

At a conscious level, the BPDer will strongly feel that her spouse is trying to control and dominate her. This is why she will create a fight -- over absolutely nothing at all -- to push you away and give her breathing space. Importantly, at a conscious level, she really does believe her outrageous allegation is true. And the next day, when she changes that allegation 180 degrees and is claiming the opposite, she will believe that nonsense just as firmly too.


> She will avoid sleep (willfully or not, unknown), and become especially irritable when lack of sleep is present.


I seriously doubt that it is willful. It is very common for BPDers to get so worked up that they cannot go to sleep for many hours. The reason, of course, is that they never learned in childhood how to do self soothing and how to manage their emotions. 

Young children are this way too -- which is why the parents are not happy when a relative drops by near bedtime and gets their kids all excited and worked up. My BPDer exW, for example, would be up walking around for half the night following one of our fights. In contrast, I would lie down and be asleep in 20 minutes.


> She will lash out and permanently "banish" those closest to herself/our marriage at the first belief of ill-will. As it stands, she refuses to speak with anyone in her family, many in mine, and most of my friends.


It is unusual for a BPDer to have any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away). Granted, the HF BPDers can handle relationships with casual friends and business associates quite well. When any one of those folks tries to draw close, however, he will start triggering the BPDers two fears -- and will be pushed away. 

On top of that problem, BPDers also have an incentive to isolate you away from all friends and family to make it easier to control your behavior. BPDers are very controlling because of their great fear of abandonment.


> Expects everyone, everywhere, to conform to her standards of etiquette, social expectations, grammar, and manners.


My best guess is that you are describing a combination of BPD paranoid ideation (i.e., "they're all trying to make life difficult for me); BPD black-white thinking (i.e., "I'm right and they're all wrong"); and narcissism ("Me, me, me"). I note that the B-W thinking causes BPDers to perceive of people as being in only two groups: "with me" or "against me." I also note that, like young children, BPDers often have a powerful feeling that they are entitled to special treatment. This is why BPDers typically have one set of standards for themselves and another set for everyone else.


> Sometimes others will call her out, and usually it ends up in a hulk-enraged argument where we have to leave early.


Like young children, BPDers can throw temper tantrums and hissy fits when they don't get their way. The HF BPDers, however, usually behave that way only around people who are close to them -- not when they are around casual friends and strangers. What you are describing, then, is lower functioning behavior.


> Frankly more than 80% of shopping trips end in arguments, and me sleeping on couch for several days to several weeks.


Likewise, the shopping trips I had with my BPDer exW nearly always ended in disaster too. As I said, BPDers have such fragile egos that they always have this strong feeling that they are being controlled by their spouses. My exW therefore was convinced I was always controlling her buying decisions. That feeling is so powerful that, even when I agreed with her choice, she still was convinced that I somehow was the one making the decision.

Indeed, the only way she knew she was making the decision was when she could figure out what I hated -- and then pick that. When she was buying a chair, for example, I enthusiastically supported her initial choice. Well, my approval was the kiss of death for any purchase decision. So we went back to the store and she picked out a series of other chairs she liked. I approved of them too. So she did not stop shopping until she found one that was totally useless and had a color unlike any color in our home. It was a lime green, which she claimed to be "yellow."


> Diet on, diet off, diet on diet off. I'm expected to know when to suggest eating, and when not to. Some days she won't eat dinner, and other days she will pig out.


One of the nine traits of BPD is the lack of impulse control. This is one reason that BPDers have so much difficulty with binge eating and spending. My beautiful exW, for example, put on 80 pounds in the first two years following our wedding. She also did binge spending -- to the tune of $10,000 -- on three occasions by obtaining credit cards I did not know about.


> She has admitted she sometimes feels that she has no control over her anger and (re)actions.


If she is a BPDer, such rare admissions are called "lucid moments." With my exW, that level of self awareness occurred maybe five times in 15 years -- typically when I was furious after discovering some outrageous expense she had hidden from me on a secret credit card. Those moments don't last long and typically have no lasting effects whatsoever.


> She occasionally insinuates suicide, but only once did she ever actually threaten it. ...This is most common when I get angry and argue back or stand my ground.


Similarly, my exW responded to my standing my ground by walking to a nearby bridge -- knowing that I was following protectively behind her. When I stopped following her to the bridge, she stopped going there.  Instead, she started going to the subway platform, where she would call and announce that she was going to jump in front of the next train. Then she would hang up. As with the bridge, I ran down there twice. When I stopped doing so, she stopped making those threats too.


> She is sexually screwed up. I can't think of a better way to say it. She's both HD and LD.. depending on the day.


The nine BPD traits are not all equal in importance. There is one trait -- emotional instability -- that is essential. Of all the PDs, BPD is the only one having instability as a basic trait. Indeed, it is so central to BPD that a large segment of the psychiatric community has been lobbying for two decades to change the disorder's name to "Emotional Regulation Disorder."

I mention this because, with emotionally unstable people, the last thing you should expect -- from day to day -- is consistency. Like most other people, BPDers typically crave intimacy. They therefore are capable of great passion and intimacy -- particularly during the courtship period when their fears are held at bay by their infatuation. They nonetheless cannot tolerate intimacy for very long because their egos are so fragile that they easily feel overwhelmed and engulfed.


> She just can't focus on one thing.. she wants to be a nurse today, a book-keeper tomorrow, and a computer tech the next day.


As I mentioned, she has a very weak sense of who she is if she is a BPDer. Because BPDers have trouble seeing a clear picture of their identity, they have a hard time knowing what they value and enjoy. This is why they are unsure about long-term goals for relationships and jobs. And this is why they seek out a mate whose strong personality will help to ground and center them by providing a clear sense of direction. Of course, _when they get exactly that_, they will greatly resent the spouse because they will feel he is trying to control them.


> Hobbies, projects, always start and never complete.


My exW was the same way. She absolutely had to have a piano, telling me how playing it would help to relax her. After hearing about it for months, I spent $3,500 and surprised her with a piano -- and also offered piano lessons. Three years later I sold it because she had sat down to play it only five times -- for a few minutes each time. 

Her attention had quickly shifted to sewing machines because she became convinced that she was a great seamstress. So we spent $5,000 on sewing machines and another $6,000 on fabric. In the 15 years of our marriage, however, she only managed to sew one dress, one vest, and a cat collar.


> She's lazy. She doesn't clean, she doesn't do anything except watch tv and play facebook games.


Were we married to the same woman? Is it possible?


> And this is where my disconnect with discussing it here always ended- when I complain in other areas of this site, people would be quick to criticize me for enabling her behavior, saying I have "nice guy syndrome", and that I'm playing the victim....


Kaboom, please listen to the other TAM members. You are an enabler. Specifically, you are enabling an adult woman to continue behaving like a spoiled four year old -- and GET AWAY WITH IT. In that way, you are harming her. Her only opportunity to grow up -- i.e., to learn how to manage her issues -- is being taken away from her when you do that. It is important that she be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. Otherwise, she has no incentive to improve.


> None of them seemed to understand how trapped I feel.


Yes, that is how you feel. But it is only a FEELING, not a fact. This attitude -- that you are a helpless victim trapped in a toxic marriage by an abusive W -- is wrong. Granted, that story might have passed muster for the first year or so. After 16 years, however, it is clear that -- like me -- you've been a _volunteer_, not a victim. It takes TWO willing partners to hold a toxic relationship together for that long. 

Moreover, the toxicity is not something your W is doing to you. Rather, it is something you BOTH are doing to each other. Her contribution to that toxicity is easy to see because she yells, screams, and behaves like a selfish spoiled child. Your contribution -- i.e., the excessive caregiving -- is more difficult to see because, after all, you are convinced you are only trying to help her and your D. Like many other TAM members, Kaboom, I suspect you have many other options (e.g., divorce, lady "G" perhaps, and a 50-50 custody agreement).


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Kaboom said:


> If they are such great actors, doesn't that in itself kind of prove that they KNOW their behavior is unacceptable?


Kaboom, as an initial matter, BPDers generally do not do the acting as a way of deceiving other people or to hide their actions. Rather, they do it because it is the way they've been thinking since early childhood and they don't know how to do otherwise. Because they don't have a stable sense of who they are, they often try to mirror the best features of people who are around them. This is primarily done as a way of fitting in and being accepted -- and being loved. This is why your W, if she is a BPDer, may be seen behaving very differently around different groups of people.

As to your question, I believe the answer is "no" -- the BPDer's great acting skill does NOT imply she is lying or that she actually knows her behavior is unreasonable. Granted, a BPDer will lie when you get her cornered -- as a way of avoiding having to admit a mistake. Keep in mind, however, that a BPDer is filled with such great shame that her subconscious usually works overtime to keep her from having to lie. It does that by projecting mistakes and bad thoughts onto her spouse, thus externalizing them. Whereas a lie would be followed by painful feelings of guilt, the beauty of projection as an ego defense is that it is entirely guilt free -- because her conscious mind is completely unaware that the projection occurred.

This is why BPD is often said to constitute a "thought disorder." That is, the BPDer's fears create intense feelings that distort her perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. As I mentioned earlier, this same thought distortion occurs to ALL of us whenever we experience intense feelings. BPDers therefore differ from the rest of us only in DEGREE, not in kind.

That said, I would agree with you that a BPDer does have a vague, general awareness that something is wrong with her and that her personality is "fake." And, during those rare "lucid moments" I discussed above, she may even acknowledge having something wrong. That is, a BPDer KNOWS that her false self image is fake to some degree. 

Indeed, a very small share of BPDers -- perhaps 2% -- are sufficiently self aware to acknowledge having BPD traits. A narcissist, in contrast, is so completely out of touch with his true self that he actually believes his false self image is true. That is the primary reason that narcissists are so emotionally stable -- and so impossible to treat.


> Doesn't that just lend proof in the pudding that they do it because nobody will challenge them?


Yes and no. The "no" part, as I understand it, is that most of the BPDer's dysfunctional behavior likely is explained by the thought distortions created by her intense feelings. It probably is these thought distortions that _explain_ most of her bad behavior. Being able to explain the behavior, however, does not _excuse_ any of it.

I therefore agree that, yes, it is important to challenge that behavior, i.e., to hold the BPDer fully responsible for her own bad choices. Like any young child, an adult BPDer has no incentive to grow up and learn mature ego defenses if she is not held accountable for her decisions. It therefore is important she be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own behavior. 

Hence, if your W is a BPDer, your enabling behavior likely has harmed her by protecting her from those logical consequences. You've always been there to pick up the pieces, for example, when she was quitting one job after another.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Kaboom, please listen to the other TAM members. You are an enabler. Specifically, you are enabling an adult woman to continue behaving like a spoiled four year old -- and GET AWAY WITH IT. In that way, you are harming her. Her only opportunity to grow up -- i.e., to learn how to manage her issues -- is being taken away from her when you do that. It is important that she be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. Otherwise, she has no incentive to improve.Yes, that is how you feel. But it is only a FEELING, not a fact. This attitude -- that you are a helpless victim trapped in a toxic marriage by an abusive W -- is wrong. Granted, that story might have passed muster for the first year or so. After 16 years, however, it is clear that -- like me -- you've been a _volunteer_, not a victim. It takes TWO willing partners to hold a toxic relationship together for that long.
> 
> Moreover, the toxicity is not something your W is doing to you. Rather, it is something you BOTH are doing to each other. Her contribution to that toxicity is easy to see because she yells, screams, and behaves like a selfish spoiled child. Your contribution -- i.e., the excessive caregiving -- is more difficult to see because, after all, you are convinced you are only trying to help her and your D. Like many other TAM members, Kaboom, I suspect you have many other options (e.g., divorce, lady "G" perhaps, and a 50-50 custody agreement).


Thanks for taking the time to lay out all those responses. It seems like my W is a textbook BPD that would seem to score in the 150% range.. I wanted to address the selected quote though-

I'm pretty familiar with the 'no more mr nice guy' guidelines.. I struggled with that side of myself in relationships past. I swore I wouldn't make those mistakes when I met my current wife.

However, after going to the site you recommended for SO's of BPD's, and lots and lots of reading their articles.. it seems the advice they generally give is not to set off BPD's. Most of the nice guy advice seems like it would directly contradict the suggested handling of BPD's. Although I haven't had a chance to order the "no more walking on eggshells" book, I'm wondering what I could possibly change, outside of bitter divorce, that would not have a negative effect on everything. 

She's a ticking time bomb. Poking her seems like a bad idea if I'm going to have to live with her.

Last night I slept on the couch, wearing my super thick cargo shorts.. I actually worried that I enraged her to the point that she would lop my junk off. I have no legal basis to argue that fear, but she's become so irrational recently that I do have fears for myself and our child at times. 

Then today.. she was cold this morning, She went out shopping and blew about $800 we don't really have to spend, and then by evening she was acting like nothing even happened.. no fight, and I didn't dare speak up about the money.. she just gave me a look when she told me about it like "I dare you to challenge me on this". Granted, it was something she needed, but she bought the very best when she could have had something comparable and more along our budget for less than $150, and hell.. I personally wouldn't have spent more than $75 for myself on it.

I honestly didn't find any of the advice on that other site very helpful.. most of it seemed focused on diagnosis and what not to say to a BPD or a therapist, but I found little on what TO say (or do). I'd love some insights into what that eggshells book suggests. I'm afraid she broke the bank today and I can't justify hemorrhaging any more money now.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...don't worry. The advice on that website is not particularly useful for abusive BPDs or for NPDs. If I remember rightly, the best advice from the eggshell book is to accept that your spouse is mentally ill and that -overall- even if you are perfect - you should expect significant dysfunction.

Overall, you'd be best off leaving.
If so, consider the splitting book as an investment.
If not, I'd recommend starting by removing her ability to break the bank. (Your paycheck->your bank account, pays all bills, approximately half the leftover->her bank account.) No joint credit cards.

Lastly, consider autism. There is a subgroup of autistic people who either strongly resemble BPD/NPD or actually are BPD/NPD. I have met BPDs who, eg, are not super-particular. I have met Aspies who are unreasonably particular in ways that don't fit BPD. 

--Argyle


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Kaboom, I agree with what Argyle just said. He is very knowledgeable about BPDers. When the BPDer spouse is very abusive and is not working hard in treatment, my usual advice is for the spouse to file for D. When a child is involved, however, I usually advise the abused spouse to do whatever is in the best interests of the child. 

For that reason, I am trying very very hard to not urge you to divorce her. That said, I agree with Argyle that, if you are going to invest in a book, the one to chose is _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._


> I honestly didn't find any of the advice on that other site very helpful.. most of it seemed focused on diagnosis and what not to say to a BPD or a therapist


As I said before, I cannot know how strong your W's BPD traits are because I've never met the woman. If the traits are only at a moderate level, the advice and validation techniques given at that website -- and in books like _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ -- can be helpful.

If her traits are strong, however, all of that advice won't make a dent in her bad behavior. On the contrary, standing up for yourself will enrage her -- as you describe. As I mentioned, a person with strong traits will only tolerate your presence as long as you are The Savior (as occurred during the courtship) or The Perpetrator. Your "Savior" days, of course, are far behind you.

Hence, if she has strong BPD traits as you now believe, you should be very careful. If you start building stronger personal boundaries -- as I did during the last few years of my marriage -- it likely will scare the ****ens out of her and convince her that you are about to abandon her. If that happens, there is a good chance she will have you arrested and thrown into jail on a bogus charge, as my exW did to me. Or the outcome could be much much worse. When confronted by their worst fear, BPDers can split you utterly black and become extremely vindictive.

This means that all your planning -- e.g., seeing the attorney, finding an apartment, and changing the back account -- should be done in secret and she should not learn of your departure until the day you are moving out. Even then, it is important to have other people help with the move so you have witnesses there with you.

IMO, walking out on a BPDer is more dangerous than leaving a narcissist or a sociopath. Whereas the latter are emotionally stable people, a BPDer is unstable and therefore very unpredictable in what she might do. My exW, for example, did things to me that I never could have imagined were possible for her to do. This is a woman whom I had lived with for 15 years and known for 45 years. I was simply in shock when seeing how she chose to treat me.

As to the BPDfamily website, there are only two message boards I would recommend if your W's traits are very strong. One is the "Leaving" board and the other is the "Parenting after the Split" board.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

In terms of the best interests of the child, my personal arithmetic is:
Divorce=1
Parented by mentally ill=1
Abused=1

So, in cases of mental illness and abuse, it may be best to seek sole or primary custody.

What helps? Documentation.

So, a diary of issues, kept for an extended time, with some confirming data is typically as, or more, convincing than sworn testimony.

Confirming data? Well, marriage counselors and therapists can be required to testify in custody disputes. If your wife is often physically abusive, arrest records are also germane to custody.

OTOH, if she behaves reasonably well towards your children and is the primary caregiver, they may be well off with her. Depends.

--Argyle


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

argyle said:


> In terms of the best interests of the child, my personal arithmetic is:
> Divorce=1
> Parented by mentally ill=1
> Abused=1
> ...


Thanks for the input Argyle- Also you as well Uptown.

I'd be lying if I played down her BPD traits. She's most certainly in the strong category, although I might dare to say I don't think she's as bad as your ex, Uptown.

One thing that still nags at me- she knows certain boundaries cannot be crossed, and no matter how irrational and destructive she becomes, she always manages to avoid crossing those boundaries. For instance, if she had me jailed, she knows it would have a very powerful and negative effect on her- which is why she doesn't go there. Same could be said for other circumstances, like leaving me- she knows she cannot afford to live without me- she's completely dependent (by her own poor choices!), something that has pained me as much as her. I've tried pushing her from dependency a lot over the years, and have only been recently somewhat successful.

She's threatened to leave several times. I've offered to pack her bags... She knows she can't so she doesn't. Not only can't she support herself, but she's alienated anyone and everyone from her life- nobody would help her. Nobody wants anything to do with her. She has nobody and nothing. Her lack of a sense of self is her own worst doing over the years. I can't help that it's the truth. I couldn't stop it from happening.. I tried. Believe me, I tried.

I cannot say I have any good documentation, other than her hospital stay at the psych ward when she had an emotional breakdown and wrote a suicide note- I called the cops when she was completely out of control, and they insisted on having her committed temporarily. She was then diagnosed with depression, and that still stands today (wrong diagnosis IMO). She's never quite crossed the line since. She doesn't abuse our child, with exception to just mostly doing nothing for the kid.. Like I said- I do it all, and when I'm not home, the W does the absolute bare minimum, but she does do that. She doesn't beat the kid, although we've argued when she "punished" when I felt it wasn't warranted (yeah, another NPD trait).

The wife is not autistic, I know autism better than most doctors and specialists.. You will have to trust me on that one.

I'm really worried about the custody the most. She will say things, and probably do things to cut me down. I just CANT let her get custody.. our child is special needs and cannot possibly do well in the environment the W would create.. especially the hostility that the child might suffer in my place.

It's so damn hard to take that step knowing all that.


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## ShockwaveRider (Jun 21, 2013)

Holy Good Christ in Heaven I've lived a virtually identical life to uptown and kaboom. Right down to the duration (15 years).

How did it turn out?

She died of cancer at 58.

Shockwave


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

I ordered both walking on eggshells and splitting.. figured what's another $25 after her $800 spree? Hope I can get something out of these.. especially the splitting book, it looks like things will likely get ugly and the recommendations on this one were really strong on amazon and here as well.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

ShockwaveRider said:


> Holy Good Christ in Heaven I've lived a virtually identical life to uptown and kaboom. Right down to the duration (15 years).
> 
> How did it turn out?
> 
> ...


Sounds like you got off easy. Did anyone show at the funeral? Were they carrying confetti and champagne? They would at my W's.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

I believe you on the autism, but will mention it again only because it took us a long, long, long time to understand exactly how much autistic presentation could vary between individuals and between women and men.

...I will reinforce that BPDs tend to get very nasty when R/S end. To the point that you should be very, very careful. False accusations resulting in jail for the men seem more common than not. The men who avoided jail seem to have been the ones smart enough to carry recorders. Yes, it is illegal to record people without their knowledge. No, they won't send you to jail for showing a recording proving your innocence. Of 6ish people, 3 went to jail and 2 avoided jail by using recorders. Bear in mind that DV enforcement is completely biased against men.*

That's a hard choice. I originally stayed for the children. My wife improved over time. But that was mostly luck.

...that said, you should talk to a lawyer and research a reasonable plan. Realistically, full custody is most likely difficult unless she is physically abusive or obviously unable to care for a child. I might start with just keeping a diary for ~6 months while doing marriage counseling. Consider it an investment, at least for the diary. Division of caretaking duties is important to record.

--Argyle
*Eg, if your wife, according to her own testimony, beats you for 15 minutes, covers you in bruises, douses you in various substances, does a runner, threatens the policeman, and only has bruises on her knuckles and feet, they'll still think about taking you in and the court won't prosecute. If your wife slams her head into the wall and calls the police, they will arrest you.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

I would like to think two things would occur- one, that she knows what repercussions are (she's proven that she does by not leaving yet), and will not jeopardize her meal ticket, and second, that I could generate enough character witnesses (everyone who knows her hates her, including her own family) that her testimony could be called into question, or outright accuse her of perjury. I know I have to have my house in order for that, and there's no guarantees.

...eesh, and people wonder why I'm so reluctant to divorce her...


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...that is not something that should stop you. Just imagine that you...filed for divorce and moved out to another place with your child. Then, after 6 months of disruption...you were divorced and only had to see her occasionally. And had a lovely computer program to log communications (they exist). 

...and you had peace, beautiful peace. And more time with your child. And more money.

Who knows...the older brackets are biased towards men...so you might meet a charming, beautiful, and sane woman.

Overall, you'll probably end up with joint or primary custody if you leave. So, assuming that she wastes an awful lot of your time anyways and doesn't do anything worse than neglect to your child, it isn't necessarily a bad tradeoff. Every situation is different though.

I have never heard of anyone regretting divorcing a BPD.

Alternatively, you could try the...

'These things I will not tolerate. If you do X, I will do Y.'

(yell->leave)
(hit->police)
(spending->separate accounts...you should probably do this before the divorce anyways and close out credit cards.)

and see where it goes while preparing for divorce.

--Argyle


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Well we had a long talk last night. Most of it I spent un-doing the damage I did. I admitted as much fault as I felt comfortable with and explained to her that X approach = Y reaction from me, and that she needs to change her approach, or that she should expect Z to be the result every time.

I figure, until those books come in, and I start the path to D, I might as well do what I can to keep the peace- No sense fighting my way through it if it's going to take a few months to get the ball rolling. Our finances are a wreck, as much as everything else, so there's a lot to be done.

I'm also extremely concerned that accusations of child abuse / molestation will be made. I'm going to contact lawyers, the courts, and child services to warn them of the possibilities, as well as sneak the child to the doctors office for a complete checkup to prove nothing has been done, at least from this date and prior.. Hopefully any accusations will overlap and prove that she would be lying, but who knows. I'm sure the "splitting" book will help me protect myself as well as my kid. At least, I hope it does.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Kaboom, that sounds like a good plan to me.


Kaboom said:


> I'm also extremely concerned that accusations of child abuse / molestation will be made.


I second Argyle's suggestion (yesterday) that you acquire a VAR and carry it around the house in your front pocket. VARs are very small and inexpensive. I agree with Argyle that documentation of what is being said is very important -- and there is no better way to document than with a VAR -- supplemented, perhaps, with the video feature on your cell phone (while it is clipped onto your belt).

My mid-twenties nephew, for example, is sharing custody of his 5 year old D with a beautiful young exGF, who is a BPDer. Several weeks ago she filed a complaint against him with child protective services, claiming that he has sexually abused his own D. The BPDer exGF based that false claim on the fact that the D had jumped into bed with her father (to watch TV) without having any underpants on beneath her night gown. 

My nephew is now carrying a VAR with him when he picks up or drops off the D. And he carries his phone with him as a backup. If your W has strong BPD traits, you should expect the custody debate to get very nasty really quickly.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

I also believe the W possibly doesn't want custody. While I have no doubt that she dearly loves our child, the child also is a victim of the BPD in the sense that my W feels the child also ruined her life, and like me, is resented for it.

I've read more than a few other posts here about BPD H's and W's tonight to get a better view, and mine doesn't seem so horrible in comparison- I mean, yes, she's horrible.. the worst person I've ever known.. every negative trait she has is the worst I've ever seen of each trait in anyone, ever. But my god.. some of the stories here about how physical and crazy things get.. just wow...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Kaboom said:


> I've read more than a few other posts here about BPD H's and W's tonight to get a better view, and mine doesn't seem so horrible in comparison.


I hope you are right about that. Please keep in mind, however, that my exW's behavior took a dramatic turn for the worst -- having me thrown into jail on a bogus charge -- at the VERY END of our 15 year marriage. If your W is a BPDer, she will become very fearful when you start building stronger personal boundaries and stop walking on eggshells. I never would have believed that my exW was capable of doing the terrible things she did to me.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Yeah.. Since I started taking on the arguments more directly (vs. apologizing and making peace all the time), her behaviors have become more erratic. I just realized this morning that her spending rages are quite possibly her way of draining the savings, making it impossible for a split to happen. She's out spending again right now.. Arguing with her over it has only made it worse, so I'm really biting my tongue.. but my god.. she's already blown almost 100% of our savings in less than 5 days. Moving it from the account isn't even possible, there's nothing left to move. I now realize I will need to shut off the overdraft protection or else she's going to trigger countless fees. I need to pay the bills. 

I know I'm like a roller-coaster in this thread. We fight and I get upset, post here, then the calm comes, I post that it's calm, then we fight... it's never-ending. In the last 5 days, we've had 3 major fights and about 8-10 small ones. She's blown close to $1500, all on bull**** she "needs" and arguments about it boil down to (in her mind) that I'm refusing to do anything for her "needs" and holding her down... sigh. I've opened a savings acct in my name only. All extra going forward goes there directly. That won't get me my $1500 back, but I gotta start somewhere.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

For your savings account, I'd advise putting in:
(a) the stuff required for bills
(b) half of any extra

That's more defensible for divorce.

And, please close any credit cards in both your names at some point - timing is tricky there.

--Argyle


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## kezins (Aug 25, 2013)

Kaboom said:


> Someone wrote this in a blog, and it fit so well, I'm stealing it (and altering it to meet my own perspective)-
> 
> "The part that sucks is bipolars can essentially do what they want, and YOU have to clean up after them. Its the most selfish disorder I have ever seen. THEY can run off, spend money, alienate YOUR friends, employers, family, whatever, but YOU, the “normal” one, have to put up with it, fix the problems they create for themselves, take care of the kids and bills, deal with the incredible amount of fallout, and just keep sucking it up till you cant take it anymore. If I knew this was what was going to happen, I would have never bothered with getting married."
> 
> ...


I don't know all the details, but this doesn't sound like bipolar to me at all. This sounds like a far more serious personality disorder especially if medication doesn't work. Bipolar disorder is almost always managed on medication and with counseling, just requiring medication tweaks every once in a while.


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## PlatinumGirl (Sep 11, 2013)

Very Sad said:


> I'm right there with you. I've been married to mine for 24 years now. I'm feeling stuck and hopeless. He's bi-polar, but from reading up above, definitely BPD. I don't know what to do. Just be glad you aren't a stay-at-home mom like me. I have no way to leave and support myself and my kids because I've only had part-time jobs all these years, so my degree is worthless.


I'm so sorry for all of us who are suffering from being married to Bi-Polar spouse. My H is a big spender as if he is a millionaire during the manic phase, he couldn't sleep and super hyper and full of energy as if he is on drugs wiht super hot tempers. He wont admit about being diagnosed 20 years ago but slipped his tongue one day. When on depressive phase. He won't get out of the house , disconnected with friends and family. Just watching TV all day laying in the couch. And wont get any treatment. I still love him but he is on manic phase for almost 5 months now and maxed out the credit cards with big purchases and having an affair.


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## anonfrank (Apr 18, 2013)

^^^^^
I cut my wife off from easy access to our finances after she cost me almost $30k a few years ago. She moans, complains, and *****es for $20 here, $50 there on a daily basis and I am generally firm in saying "no" unless it's to something I've previously budgeted.

It leads to disagreements, but I'd rather have a disagreement than to be broke because of irrational behavior.

If your H won't seek treatment, you need to leave. I am still with my wife, frustrating as it is, because she is at least actively visiting the P-doc and is compliant with meds, for what little good they do.


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## Claufjdia (Sep 26, 2013)

abusive, mean, indifferent, callous and mean. They can. But then again so can cancer patients.


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## Wing Man (Jun 8, 2012)

Dealt with the bi-polar freakshow for about 3 years before leaving permanently while I still had my sanity, and the only think I miss was the great sexual chemistry we had but other than that it was a roller coaster ride filled with drama.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

I unfortunately just learned this lesson about the money. Since we've been together, we've always struggled.. like every bill being a month late, and ramen noodles for dinner kind of struggle..

And finally, I have a really great job, and am finally making good money. She finally kept a job more than two weeks.. the ends are finally meeting.. I wanted to get us caught up on everything, but she goes out every payday and blows her check, sometimes less, and sometimes more. 

Then we got to a point that I was able to put about $2500 in the bank. I had plans for that money. All of it was going to satisfy one debt or another.. our bills were all paid up, but no.. she blew every goddam cent of it. She "needs" this and she "needs" that.. new makeup, new clothes, new everything. It's hard to fathom seeing $2500 vanish in 2 weeks flat and even harder when it's all via small purchases, $50 here, $75 there, eat out every day, etc..

I'm so overwhelmed again.. I just fell a month behind on 3 bills because now there's not even enough in the account to cover them.

I was going to open a separate account, but dropped the idea, because I know it's going to cause a fight.. probably THE fight, and I'm not eager to go there, but also in the last big fight we had, I almost told her that she's BPD, and while I never actually said it, I did go as far to tell her that her meds are clearly not working and that she was irrational, mental, and needs to visit her shrink for a re-evaluation.

Well, she actually did, and the shrink changed up her meds, and she's been trying really hard to work on things.. so why would I stir the pot? Well, I know that answer.. because $2500 is forever gone.. sigh. It's damn depressing


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...y'know...just because a BPD threatens to leave constantly...it doesn't mean they will. I mean, they might, but the abandonment issues mean they tend to stick with people, even when being constantly abused.

...so...I'd suggest behaving reasonably and letting her decide whether or not she leaves. In this case, a reasonable person would establish a separate bank account.

--Argyle


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