# Infidelity, Porn, and Lost Trust. Please Help.



## BellaBrooks (Feb 7, 2018)

I am horribly and embarrassingly struggling with this issue in my marriage. Please bear with my story, because in my situation, context is everything.

I've been with my husband for 15+ years. Early on I knew he enjoyed some porn on occasion, never minded, and sometimes enjoyed it with him.

Soon after we married, we had a child and drifted apart, and became sexually alienated from each other. This went on for some years, and during that time I think he became (understandably) reliant on porn for his gratification. This also allowed him to duck the subject of our lack of intimacy and not push the issue.

Then, a few years ago, he started engaging in extra-marital affairs. Emotional affairs at first, where he was complaining about his discontent in his marriage to other women and listening to them do the same. Then, he escalated to receiving nude pictures from women he knew, hooking up with a woman at a bar, and then having a nude photos/ sexting affair with a woman at work. 

I was clueless about this. I knew we were physically alienated, but we were loving and friendly and I guess I didn't want to look at it too hard. With me still completely in the dark, he suddenly came to me and told me he was unhappy and didn't love me any more. I asked him about affairs and he denied any at that time. We ultimately sought counselling and long miserable months went by until I finally found evidence of one of the affairs (photos of a coworker) and he admitted to everything. At that point, he was remorseful and just wanted us to start over. Because I knew I wasn't blameless, I agreed.

Everything seemed wonderful for a while, then gradually got worse. Finally, last summer, he was back to "I'm not happy." I had been starting to suspect something was going on again, and although he denied I ultimately found out that he had been (at least) flirt-texting a LOT with a female coworker, and that he had driven her home at one point when he didn't come home until 2a.m. and wasn't answering my texts. He has denied denied denied that anything happened. I am skeptical.

Anyway, sorry, where the porn comes in. He met this woman coworker at an out-of-town conference. On the same weekend, he joined a live streaming porn site and put money into it that he could pay in "tips," basically like tipping a stripper in real time. He was also able to "chat" with the women on this site and had several that he was following. There is also an option (sorry, explicit) where you can "tip" a certain amount in order to activate a strategically-placed vibrator.

To me, this kind of porn crosses the line, knocks over the fence, and tramples all over a couple's private intimacy. It also felt, on discovery, like part of the infidelity package. Like he was casting a wide net to seek sexual gratification from others than me.

My husband sought therapy this time, at my urging, to figure out what was making him so unhappy and leading him to seek outside the marriage. He went to therapy for a short time and seemed massively improved very quickly. Back to being very affectionate and loving and remorseful that he had slipped into "old patterns."

I talked to him about the porn, and told him that 1) the tipping system was not, and would never be, ok with me; and 2) under the circumstances, our intimacy just felt under attack and could he please just take a break from all forms of porn for a while. He agreed, readily.

Unfortunately, he has not been able to hold to that agreement. He has resumed viewing porn (at the same site but without "logging in"), even on weeks where we are being intimate almost every night. We have had additional talks, where he has promised to really give it up this time, but it never lasts.

For me, this has made porn--something that I would have scoffed at as a possible serious marital "issue"--into a problem that might at this point break our marriage.

I am trying so hard to regain the belief that I can trust him. I do love him so much. But I feel like I can't trust him to control his sexual urges. If he can't resist looking at porn under these circumstances, of having repeatedly violated my trust, and having made voluntary promises to stop...how can I trust him at all?

And how can I ever think about him using porn again without suspecting that it will inevitably escalate, in frequency, in level of engagement, and then shift into the more "real world" of flirty coworkers?

Please help.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

BellaBrooks said:


> I am horribly and embarrassingly struggling with this issue in my marriage. Please bear with my story, because in my situation, context is everything.
> 
> I've been with my husband for 15+ years. Early on I knew he enjoyed some porn on occasion, never minded, and sometimes enjoyed it with him.
> 
> ...



Ok, I think you know this but just spelling it out plainly. Porn is not the issue here, he is! Porn seems to be just one of the avenues where he gets his kicks but he's also taking it from virtual to real on at least several occasions and from what I have learned in my own experience with an unfaithful spouse and the same story over and over on here with so many others ... there's most likely a LOT more that you don't know unfortunately. 

Whether or not the marriage can be saved may already be out the door but it's never going to be on your terms, or let me put this in a better way, it's never going to be on what a normal, loving and fair marriage's terms unless he is faced with extreme consequences, boundaries and you sticking up for yourself and giving him the list of deal breakers.

Sit down and write out a list of deal breakers and stick to them. Have one good last talk with him on giving him your requests for what's absolutely fair. I know you are scared as Hell that you will lose him or make it worse if you give him demands but he's NEVER, EVER going to be what you need him to be by just being nice to him and trying to work things out in normal fashion. What I mean, is like when communication is an issue, you can go to marriage counseling and that can be fixed. When you have a spouse that you cannot trust and to answer your question, NO, you cannot trust this man. 

Give him your list of deal breakers, stick to them. If he breaks them, see a lawyer, protect yourself and give him the real test of seeing what he's made out of when he's faced with separation. People like this need to hit rock bottom they need to experience true loss in order to even begin to see the light. 

Do you have kids, how is he as a father?


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## BellaBrooks (Feb 7, 2018)

Thank you for your support ()



stillfightingforus said:


> there's most likely a LOT more that you don't know unfortunately.


I really don't want this to be true, but I am very fearful you are right.



stillfightingforus said:


> Sit down and write out a list of deal breakers and stick to them. Have one good last talk with him on giving him your requests for what's absolutely fair.


Is it reasonable for me to ask him to give up porn for good? He has always used it for "stress relief" and I think he resents me when he's trying to abstain.

Also, what lengths should I be willing to go to in order to determine whether he is holding to his promise? He has gotten very good at sneaky porn browsing; he uses private mode and does it while I'm driving to work, so finding him out has gotten to be pretty much impossible. So far he admits to it when I call him out, but I could see that changing if he sees this as a permanent demand.



stillfightingforus said:


> Do you have kids, how is he as a father?


We have one child, a daughter who will soon start high school. I am definitely the go-to parent, but he is engaged and involved. He coaches her sports team and spends time with her to practice at home, and he is generally willing to spend time as a family doing normal things. He is kind and supportive, with the exception of the bad times when he had the affairs, he became prone to losing his temper at her, usually during their practice time. That was horrible, but not typical of his personality. 

He is prone to hiding his feelings and acting like everything's fine. We are both avoiders, but he is even more so than I. He pretty much never really opens up.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

> We have had additional talks, where he has promised to really give it up this time


Or else what?

It's like you are dealing with an alcoholic. Promises mean less than nothing. They cannot be around the stuff. 

Stillfightingforus used the phrase "rock bottom", which comes from the treatment of alcoholics, and I think it's appropriate. 



> Is it reasonable for me to ask him to give up porn for good?


Yes and no. Yes, it _would_ be a reasonable request. No, it's no good you *asking*, he has to decide for himself. If you keep asking, you just make it into him versus you, whereas really it's him versus addiction. All you can do is inform him of consequences. 



> Also, what lengths should I be willing to go to in order to determine whether he is holding to his promise?


I think you'd be justified in going to any lengths, but as you said, unfortunately, it's not very practical. He can probably find ways to hide it, if he's still set on opposing you. This is why it can't be him versus you. 

You might make a demand that he attend individual counselling - but unfortunately if he does, the therapist cannot ethically make "progress reports" to YOU.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

stillfightingforus said:


> Give him your list of deal breakers, stick to them. If he breaks them, see a lawyer, protect yourself and give him the real test of seeing what he's made out of when he's faced with separation. People like this need to hit rock bottom they need to experience true loss in order to even begin to see the light.


I agree with the above, and people can and do change during a serious separation.



BellaBrooks said:


> Is it reasonable for me to ask him to give up porn for good? He has always used it for "stress relief" and I think he resents me when he's trying to abstain.


I think the only person you can speak for is yourself. You say what you will and will not tolerate, and then he decides what he will or will not change.



> Also, what lengths should I be willing to go to in order to determine whether he is holding to his promise? He has gotten very good at sneaky porn browsing; he uses private mode and does it while I'm driving to work, so finding him out has gotten to be pretty much impossible. So far he admits to it when I call him out, but I could see that changing if he sees this as a permanent demand.


I'm going to be pretty much alone here in my opinion, but I think you give him time to prove himself over the long haul - without the sneaking. 

To me, the prying and probing just adds to your anxiety, and it's really no better than his dishonest behavior. People here will tell you otherwise because covert actions (such as VARs, creating false accounts to spy, etc.) are justified by those wanting to gather evidence to prove their case. 

It's deceitfulness, nonetheless.

In my opinion, simply separate yourself. He'll either come around or he won't. Your energy is better served taking care of yourself and, if you have any, your children.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

minimalME said:


> I'm going to be pretty much alone here in my opinion


No, I pretty much agree with the following:



> To me, the prying and probing just adds to your anxiety


and he can probably get round it.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Why stay in a sexless marriage?


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

BellaBrooks said:


> Thank you for your support ()
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Porn - Heck YES it's reasonable, just, needed, etc, etc to ask him to give it up ... even for his own good! When porn genuinely doesn't interfere with the relationship and is used as a supplement to fulfill what guys do in addition to giving their wife all they want and need, it can be ok. When it's used to spice up things between couples, it can be good. When it's abused and used for all of the wrong reasons, it needs to stop! Much like any other drug or alcohol that cannot be controlled and is abused.

Father - Ok, sounds like he's a regular normal dad with normal oddities, etc  Not overly engaged but doesn't sound like someone that goes out of his way to neglect. 

Your current situation - you sound a lot like a lot of us that come onto this board at first and me up until 2 months ago. It sounds like you are still devastated with the thought of losing him even with what has done a variety of times. I can understand that totally. You just want him to be the person he should be and what you deserve, what you agreed upon in law and under God years ago with vows. A person with integrity should be able to do this and that's why it's hard for us BSs to grabble the idea because we are living in a world where we abide by the rules of love and trust. That world just isn't in the head of the damaged beings of Wayward Spouses, they justify, they think we are the ones that don't understand. It's mind baffling but it exists sadly. Fight for what is right and more importantly for what best helps you and your daughter. The one thing that is helping me get through my situation is understanding my kids need me now more than ever and especially in a few months when the divorce proceedings hit full tilt.


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## Primrose (Mar 4, 2015)

He has most definitely cheated on you. Do not take his word when he denies this. 

First off, he has to find a new job. He has been sexually active with at least one co-worker and has had emotional affairs with multiple. I would not even consider reconciling if he will not look for other employment. 

Why did you stop having sex with him? It's normal for your sex life to take a temporary hit while adjusting to parenthood, but there's no excuse to let it go on long term. I'm a woman and I would not stay with my man if he stopped having sex with me (aside from medical or health issues, of course). Granted, no sex in the marriage is no justification to have an affair, but it is a justification to end a marriage.


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## BellaBrooks (Feb 7, 2018)

Primrose said:


> Why did you stop having sex with him? It's normal for your sex life to take a temporary hit while adjusting to parenthood, but there's no excuse to let it go on long term.


Ugh, this is a long, sad story. We never completely stopped having sex, but we went years at about once a month, with occasional bursts of increased connection.

When my daughter was about a year old, I got pregnant again (wanted) and ended up losing the bay. Shortly after, I got pregnant again and again had a miscarriage. This one occurred the same week his mother died of cancer. Another miscarriage after that, and then a pregnancy that went 6 months until the baby died.

We were living with his father at this time, who was wracked with grief. Shortly after we lost the last baby, his father shot himself--while we were at home in the house.

All of this was devastating to both of us, but when I would try to get him to open up or express my own emotions, he would just shut down. He was completely emotionally closed off and I was horribly depressed, went on anti-depressants and for a time I am ashamed to admit that I self-medicated with opiods (about 10mg a day), which he knew about and never confronted me about or asked if it was a problem etc, which of course was fine with me because I was in denial that I had a problem. Obviously in no way his fault, just another way that we continued to ignore each other and our problems.

I was not working during any of this time, and he resented me and I knew it. I was just struggling to make it through the days and be a decent mother. I clung to my daughter for emotional connection, and slept with her instead of him.

For me, he felt cold and resentful (although he was never willing to openly express his feelings) and there was no real passion or romance or genuine connection. I could not get comfortable with having sex under those conditions. And I failed to confront the problem, as he did.

This is why, when the first affairs occurred, I was willing to take responsibility for my part and give it another chance. I made so many changes that year, immediately stopped sleeping in another room, got a job, started doing a lot more in terms of day-to-day keeping the house clean, taking out the trash, mowing the lawn, etc. 

I feel like I fully faced my own failures and flaws and made 100% effort to fix everything I could and save my marriage. We were still only intimate 1-2 times per week, but that was because he continued to feel closed off and not affectionate toward me. It was hard for me to be physically intimate at all when I felt so emotionally isolated, but I kept it up because I was so committed to being what he needed me to be. 

But I feel he did not do the same. He says he has now, but it feels half-hearted to me. His attempts at emotional connection are all about if "something's wrong" with me, and I get the feeling that he feels somewhat put out when I want to talk, though he would deny that for sure. He still doesn't open up to me about what's really going on with him, except for endless stories about how stressful work is. 

And now we're intimate almost every day, but it's mostly because I fear him being sexually discontented and feeling the need for more. I know this is not a real solution.


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## BellaBrooks (Feb 7, 2018)

stillfightingforus said:


> Porn - Heck YES it's reasonable, just, needed, etc, etc to ask him to give it up ... even for his own good! When porn genuinely doesn't interfere with the relationship and is used as a supplement to fulfill what guys do in addition to giving their wife all they want and need, it can be ok. When it's used to spice up things between couples, it can be good. When it's abused and used for all of the wrong reasons, it needs to stop! Much like any other drug or alcohol that cannot be controlled and is abused.


This is pretty much exactly my feeling. But I know for sure that he is not willing to admit that his porn use interferes with our relationship--except that it upsets me. He has been insistent that he can use it in a normal, healthy way. In the same breath, he said he's "only" been doing it "twice a week" which is "way way cut down" from his norm. Which suggests excess to me in his sense of "the norm."



stillfightingforus said:


> It sounds like you are still devastated with the thought of losing him even with what has done a variety of times. I can understand that totally. You just want him to be the person he should be and what you deserve, what you agreed upon in law and under God years ago with vows.


Yes. Exactly yes. I feel like my heart is breaking to pieces.



stillfightingforus said:


> Fight for what is right and more importantly for what best helps you and your daughter. The one thing that is helping me get through my situation is understanding my kids need me now more than ever and especially in a few months when the divorce proceedings hit full tilt.


My daughter is one of the biggest reasons I want to do everything I can to salvage the marriage. She is clueless that we even have any problems. She says she has the world's best parents. I know that if our marriage breaks, she will be heartbroken too. And that breaks my heart even more.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

BellaBrooks said:


> This is pretty much exactly my feeling. But I know for sure that he is not willing to admit that his porn use interferes with our relationship--except that it upsets me. He has been insistent that he can use it in a normal, healthy way. In the same breath, he said he's "only" been doing it "twice a week" which is "way way cut down" from his norm. Which suggests excess to me in his sense of "the norm."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. Doesn't matter what he thinks about the porn anymore, it has dramatically affected the relationship and not his choice anymore, at least not while he's with you ... sorry dude. Don't give in to his logic or compromises here, he's in the wrong and it's not even close.

2. It's normal, even after 8 months, I still hurt quite a bit but I'm so much stronger now that I can look at her with disdain and see her not for the good memories we had but the person responsible for the destruction of our family. Took me many months of counseling and a lot of self reflection but I get it now. I'll always remember the good times and what could have been but it can't be now because of her actions and mindset.

3. We haven't even told the kids yet since we have to live together for 6 months during this process and since we haven't had a court date yet, we don't know what exactly is going to change who's going to get what, etc. I say that because my counselor's plan involves telling them gradually all the stuff that will remain the same (through normal conversations) and then start to talk about what will change after we get through that phase. They are 6 and 10 and love mommy and daddy very much, they get sad even when we are away from each other for a day. Going to be tough but again, sucks but there's nothing I can do about it. I forgave 3 different discovery days and still got taken advantage of and her not wanting to work things out.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

BellaBrooks said:


> When my daughter was about a year old, I got pregnant again (wanted) and ended up losing the bay. Shortly after, I got pregnant again and again had a miscarriage. This one occurred the same week his mother died of cancer. Another miscarriage after that, and then a pregnancy that went 6 months until the baby died.
> 
> We were living with his father at this time, who was wracked with grief. Shortly after we lost the last baby, his father shot himself--while we were at home in the house.


Oh my goodness. You have done well to stay together at all under the impact of so many losses. So many couples split up when things like that hit them. 

That, to some extent, now makes it seem like porn and lack of intimacy is a symptom rather than "the problem". (I'm not saying it's OK - just saying it may not be all that needs fixing).


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## BellaBrooks (Feb 7, 2018)

Laurentium said:


> That, to some extent, now makes it seem like porn and lack of intimacy is a symptom rather than "the problem". (I'm not saying it's OK - just saying it may not be all that needs fixing).


I agree. I think so much of what he has done has stemmed from trying to cope with impossibly hard feelings that he does not want to face. I think he spends a lot of energy running from the big scary darkness inside himself.

I have done plenty of running too, but I ultimately did face my demons head on. I don't know how to penetrate his defenses and make him feel safe to...feel. with me. So I can help.

Meanwhile, I know for sure that he does not want to hurt me. I think he is suffering from compulsions that have taken control of him, that he feels he needs in order to survive, in a way. I'm not making excuses for him, but I feel like his actions are not simply hedonism or selfishness. They are a symptom, and I don't know how to find the disease underneath.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

BellaBrooks said:


> I agree. I think so much of what he has done has stemmed from trying to cope with impossibly hard feelings that he does not want to face. I think he spends a lot of energy running from the big scary darkness inside himself.
> 
> I have done plenty of running too, but I ultimately did face my demons head on. I don't know how to penetrate his defenses and make him feel safe to...feel. with me. So I can help.
> 
> Meanwhile, I know for sure that he does not want to hurt me. I think he is suffering from compulsions that have taken control of him, that he feels he needs in order to survive, in a way. I'm not making excuses for him, but I feel like his actions are not simply hedonism or selfishness. They are a symptom, and I don't know how to find the disease underneath.


Sadly, this can lead down a path that's going to have you going in circles. I tried to justify everything as well. My STBXW had issues with insecurity and mild depression going into the marriage, it had been there I'm told since she was at least 3. Possible Bi-Polar, my counselor seems to think it's possible she was sexually abused as a child at one point based up on everything I have told her and her actions. All of these are reasons why she may be the way she is but they aren't excuses. I tried for 17 years and 14 years of marriage to be there but got pushed away often and then would get things like you're never going to leave me right? Welp, I never left her but she didn't hold up her end of the bargain. What I'm trying to say is that no matter how hard we try, we can't fix it. They have to be willing to accept what's really wrong and be fixed. Most people don't make that first step until they hit rock bottom. 

Do what you can for yourself and your daughter, have a talk, impose the boundaries and if they are broken, don't tell him, just go to a lawyer and start the process of at least learning your options. I didn't see, are you talking to a counselor, I think you should be doing this as well. I would also please confide in your close family members that will be there for you. You'll be surprised on the advice and guidance they give!


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## Tortdog (May 2, 2016)

BellaBrooks said:


> I am horribly and embarrassingly struggling with this issue in my marriage. Please bear with my story, because in my situation, context is everything.
> 
> I've been with my husband for 15+ years. Early on I knew he enjoyed some porn on occasion, never minded, and sometimes enjoyed it with him.
> 
> ...


It's an addiction issue. He needs to realize he has a problem and seek help. He needs to never go near what brings him down. His promises may be legitimate when he makes them but he cannot keep them while in this state.

He should recognize the problem as he cannot keep his word and he lies to cover it up. He needs help. If he won't seek it, then leave. 

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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Are you totally comfortable with him coaching your high-school daughter's sports team?


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## BellaBrooks (Feb 7, 2018)

Thanks everyone, for the good advice and support.

I had a long talk with my husband last night. I wrote a list of all of the things I wanted to say beforehand, so that I wouldn't get flustered or chicken out.

I told him that the last time we talked I was not left with a sense that I could trust him to keep his word. I laid out exactly how serious this is for me, that what is on the line is my ability to trust him at all. I made it clear that betraying my trust on this will be a deal-breaker. That I am at my limit, and could not come back from that at this point.

He said that he had been thinking about it over the past couple of days and that he has come to see how these issues are entangled--the infidelity and the porn. He said he would have to be really stupid to choose porn over me, and that there was no way he was going to risk losing my trust again. He expressed an intense desire to earn my trust back, and intense remorse that he had done what he had done to repeatedly erode my trust.

Then I brought up the really hard one. I told him that I was haunted by the feeling that there is more that he is not telling me. I told him that regardless of what he might think, we were never going to be able to move forward if there were any secrets still remaining between us. I've been with him half of my life. I can feel a secret between us like it's a hair in my throat. 

He actually seemed relieved that I said this. He said he knew he had to tell me at some point, and he was not going to be able to move forward either with a secret still there. I believe this, because last time (2 years ago with the first crisis) when I found one piece of evidence he ended up confessing a thousand things--large and small--that I would have had no way of knowing if he hadn't chosen to confess. So I do believe that he hates having secret guilt, that it eats away at him, even though he always seems to lie at first. 

He admitted that he kissed the coworker when he drove her home that night. He told me where/how it happened, and that immediately he and she both regretted it and swore to forget it and never speak of it. He begged me to believe that it did not go further than that, and said he knew it would be hard for me to not suspect that he was still lying. 

He has said more than once (previously and recently) that he has never had intercourse with anyone but me since the day we met. I have never had the gut feeling that he is lying; my instincts believe him, where they have doubted much else. In the same way, I believed him last night, that they did not do more than kiss. If he was lying, my instincts have failed me this time.

So while it's a terrible blow, knowing he kissed her, having to hear him say it (ugh)...I feel it could have been worse. And he is very, very remorseful.

I do not currently have that sinking feeling of "I am being a total sucker," but maybe it just hasn't set in yet. I feel like maybe, he might actually be facing his **** this time. 

I am so emotionally exhausted, I feel my judgment is probably for crap.

Am I doing everything right? Is there more I should do? Should I be doubting him/myself more? What's next?


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## Tortdog (May 2, 2016)

BellaBrooks said:


> Thanks everyone, for the good advice and support.
> 
> I had a long talk with my husband last night. I wrote a list of all of the things I wanted to say beforehand, so that I wouldn't get flustered or chicken out.
> 
> ...


Does it matter if he did more at this point (other than STDs)?

So move on and let the past go. But don't agree to go forward unless he recognizes he has a problem with pornography or sexual addiction and gets help now. And make sure he goes and gets this taken care of. Make sure you get to talk with the therapist so you know whether there is progress.

All talk no action. 

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