# Trying to understand this.



## sokillme

I have read so many WW saying they couldn't be free with their husband but could be with their affair partner. I am trying to understand this. I mean I guess I get it if they just married their husband for security and are not attracted to them. But so many of them say stuff like, I felt free. I could be myself and not worry about it. 

I don't get this, why don't they feel free to be with someone who has committed their lives to them? Why don't they feel free and open when they supposedly love their husband? 

I get it they are screwed up and probably shouldn't be married to anyone. However I am sure their are wives out there who would never cheat but still do not feel free to be open with their husbands like these women. 

What is going on here? What can a husband do to help that?

Edit** I am going to add this here because @Magnesium pointed out that I really didn't explain this question right so the dialog seems to be moving towards more of the cheating examples. 



> I really was asking because I had just read a post by a WW who said this very thing. She loved her husband but she didn't feel free to be sexual with him like she could her affair partner. Now she knows that that was wrong and wants to change. Not the first time I have read this. Usually it's a common one given for why women start affairs in the first place. I am sure you have heard of the Madonna ***** Complex. (Yes it goes both ways.)
> 
> A variation on this for men is not enough sex, often times this may even be when their wives were more then sufficiently trying to meet their need but the men were just entitled *******s. But with the women it wasn't lack of sex but lack of feeling free. If you want I can link to about 3 I have read this week where this was the case. The wife now is very sorry and specifically says, it was an escape I could be free and sexual. It was just a fantasy. Yet I know there are lots of marriage where both partners are free and do explore their fantasies with their spouses.
> 
> My thinking was you read this a lot and I wonder why that is? Seem a lot of women have a hard time being sexual, I say that again because I read that. I was also thinking what a tragedy that is, because wouldn't it have been better since they all said they loved their husband if they could have been open enough to show this side of themselves with their husband. Maybe they would have averted disaster.


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## Married but Happy

sokillme said:


> I don't get this, why don't they feel free to be with someone who has committed their lives to them? Why don't they feel free and open when they supposedly love their husband?


I'd say it's not them, it's the spouse who may have put restrictions on the relationship, isn't willing to do certain things, or is emotionally unavailable. The wayward may have tried, and was shut down. This is reality for many people.


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## katiecrna

I totally understand why women say they dont feel free with their spouses. Sometimes they care too much, feel self conscious, feel judged. Sometimes spouses bring up things in the past and make fun of you or hold it against you or whatever. 
It’s hard as a women Bc you want to be sexy and enjoy sex but you also want to be respected by your husband. 

When you have an affair you can compartmentalize yourself and you can only show the sexual side of yourself and that is freeing. When your married you are totally vulnerable, and your spouses sees everything and knows everything about you and you know their flaws and it can be scary. Especially if your with a critical spouse, or a negative spouse, or a spouse that teases you. It’s hard to explain but it’s easier to experiment and be free with someone who doesn’t have a big part of your life.


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## sokillme

Married but Happy said:


> I'd say it's not them, it's the spouse who may have put restrictions on the relationship, isn't willing to do certain things, or is emotionally unavailable. The wayward may have tried, and was shut down. This is reality for many people.


This is not the situation I am talking about. I get it if you have no connection to your spouse because they are abusive or whatever. You're still an ******* for cheating however. I am talking about the wives who seeming had good relationships, and even say there husbands were good men but still can't open there sexual side up to them. 

Lots of times it's like they are only capable of being fully sexual as long as there is no real intimacy. Like you hear all the time, "it's like I was a different person. I was like I was in a dream." Why do you have to be a different person to be sexually free? or the proverbial "It was all a fantasy." Lots of times the wive will start the affair because they wanted to have a crazy sexual experience but they have a husband right there who was more then willing. 

I mean every real relationship is going to have struggles right? So why does it seem like some are only able to love or have sex with abandon when you have the shallowest relationships, ones that do have any conflicting interest or negotiation?

Why not chose to live with abandon with the person you spend all your time with? Like wouldn't it be better to have a great sex completely open sex life with your spouse? 

So yes I know there are people who are just *******s and want the excitement of new sex, danger, and being horrible to their spouses (yep some people are like that). To me that is kind of a power thing, like rape. In that case it's not even about sex or the person having the sex it's about some emptiness inside. 

But even without affairs lots and lots of women seen kind of restricted in there sexuality.


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## Rowan

I think the "I could really be free with my AP" thing is likely just part of the cheater script. My ex-husband used that line too. It's part and parcel of the justifications cheaters use to minimize what they're doing to their partner. I also think there's likely something freeing about he fantasy world the cheater inhabits with their AP. There are no bills, no childcare issues, no crying babies, no visits with the in-laws, no chores, no real-world problems when they're with their AP. It's all pure fantasy, untouched by the mundane things of actual life with actual responsibilities. Who wouldn't find that "freeing"?

But, in all honesty, many people - even those who never cheat - don't truly feel 100% free to be themselves with their partners. 

Most people want their spouse to think well of them. It's always a risk to share something of yourself that might be difficult or unflattering or odd with a partner. What if it changes the way they view you? What if they don't like the "real" you? Will knowing X make you unlovable to them? Many, many, people go through life hiding parts of themselves from even (sometimes especially) those closest to them.

Then, there are some times when it's not really emotionally safe, or perhaps even worthwhile, to share much of yourself with a partner anyway. If your partner is prone to dismissing - or worse, mocking or holding for later use against you - your thoughts, opinions, feelings, or needs, then letting them in on very private things isn't likely to do anything positive for you. If they don't seem to value what you do share, why bother trying to share the deeply personal parts of yourself? If they've made it clear through the years that they're happier with who they think you are or want you to be, than with who you've repeatedly tried to let them see you really are, why torture either of you by continuing to try and share your inner self? They clearly don't really want to know. And, worse, if your thoughts, ideas, feelings, or desires are actually going to be weaponized against you the next time your partner wants the upper hand, then you're likely much safer, emotionally, just to keep your inner self to yourself.


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## uhtred

There are lots of reasons people can't be open with their spouses. It can range from not being able to view your partner as Mother/Father, AND sexual partner. It could be from marrying someone "safe", but not exciting. It can also be because your partner gets judgmental, especially about sex. If you've heard "why would you want to do that" (with an implication that you are a pervert) when you ask for something sexual, its easy to never ask again.


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## Andy1001

sokillme said:


> I have read so many WW saying they couldn't be free with their husband but could be with their affair partner. I am trying to understand this. I mean I guess I get it if they just married their husband for security and are not attracted to them. But so many of them say stuff like, I felt free. I could be myself and not worry about it.
> 
> I don't get this, why don't they feel free to be with someone who has committed their lives to them? Why don't they feel free and open when they supposedly love their husband?
> 
> I get it they are screwed up and probably shouldn't be married to anyone. However I am sure their are wives out there who would never cheat but still do not feel free to be open with their husbands like these women.
> 
> What is going on here? What can a husband do to help that?


A few years ago I had a discussion with some people who lived in the same apt block as me and the topic of marriage “breaks” came up.I should mention here that there were no couples involved in the discussion.Basically the idea was that every few years both partners would get a week off and could do what they wanted with no questions asked.
Every one of the married women said the same thing,they would spend the week having wild sex with as many different partners as they could.Golden showers,bondage,Eiffel towering,three guys at the same time,gang bang,you name it these women were willing to try it.
I asked them why they wouldn’t try some of this with their husbands and the general consensus was they wouldn’t let their husbands treat them like that.Basically it was ok for a stranger to piss on them but they wouldn’t let the man they loved do it.


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## sokillme

katiecrna said:


> I totally understand why women say they dont feel free with their spouses. Sometimes they care too much, feel self conscious, feel judged. Sometimes spouses bring up things in the past and make fun of you or hold it against you or whatever.
> It’s hard as a women Bc you want to be sexy and enjoy sex but you also want to be respected by your husband.
> 
> When you have an affair you can compartmentalize yourself and you can only show the sexual side of yourself and that is freeing. When your married you are totally vulnerable, and your spouses sees everything and knows everything about you and you know their flaws and it can be scary. Especially if your with a critical spouse, or a negative spouse, or a spouse that teases you. It’s hard to explain but it’s easier to experiment and be free with someone who doesn’t have a big part of your life.


First of all, let's work from the premise that the husband is just a normal decent human being who is not perfect but has shown loyalty but as good a husband as the wife is. Also that they are both attracted to each other enough and truly love each other. So the respect thing I don't get AT ALL. I don't know any man who would respect his wife less if she was sexually adventurous with him (not talking about adding people or stuff like that that, I get that, but doing exciting things trying different things, being sexy maybe even ****ty with him, doing things that really are only really done to turn him on). 

Like lots of men will run through walls to be with a women who is like that, and then to have her be a safe partner too, meaning she only does that for him. If anything most decent men would respect their wives MORE or that is at least that is how I think. I can think of very many things that would be more bonding or endearing to a guy. Also if anything she may find her husband is more complementary, more romantic, just more into her if she were to do this. 

I think this may be one of the reasons. I think what I just wrote her show a fundamental difference in how men and women see how men feel about their wives if they are adventurous with them. [As I am writing this I also notice that I can't find a word to describe this type of sex without it having a negative connotation in it. Dirty, Nasty, ****ty, all of those words could be taken as a bad thing, yet I think that is what most men really want.] This again brings out some of the problem right? Like why do we use words that make this type of lovemaking sound wrong? Maybe that whole thing is a part of it together. 



> It’s hard to explain but it’s easier to experiment and be free with someone who doesn’t have a big part of your life.


Again working from the premise that the dude is a good husband then this is just very sad. And it doesn't make logical sense. Like doesn't a person who has such a big part in your life have a much stronger reason to protect you? Doesn't have have a more vested interest in you? For instance lots of male AP end up sharing sex pics online. Of course they do because those men really do think of their AP's as ****s, or just bodies to have sex with. While there husbands think of them as treasures, or best friends. Like I have a wonderful gift that I can give out, am I going to give it to my best friend or someone I just met.

Also is there anything else besides sex that works this way? If not then why does sex work this way? Like no one says, I can't be totally funny in front of my spouse because I can't be free. I can't be silly, or fart or anything else. It seem this is really only a situation with sex. Why? 

I mean you know your answer her basically say to men, if you want good sex find a women and have a very shallow relationship with her. Not much different then the Redpill idea. I hate that that is the case because I hate the implications of this but it does seem to be the answer. 

Besides that what can a husband do to help her feel free or is it just that he married the wrong person? To me this is kind of like marrying a person who is not honest with you in a way. It's like most men expect that this is what they are supposed to get from their wives when they get married. Now some people are just vanilla or lazy and the though of being sexy doesn't appeal to them, but then again there are lots of things in our marriage that we don't necessarily love to do but we do because that is what you do when you love someone. The good ones you try to find something you enjoy about it. 

For instance my wife loves cooking shows. I don't or didn't and though it was weird and boring watching someone cook, but I wanted to spend time with her so I started watching. Eventually I started to at least find something in them that held my interest. The technical aspect of cooking. The skill, I started to relate it to sports. Like this is a very specialized skill that I am watching someone demonstrate. 

Is the person really a good spouse if they can't allow themselves to be completely open with their partner? I am not sure.


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## Magnesium

I think it just comes down to the responsibilities, routine, and obligations in a marriage versus the lack of those things in an affair.

It can feel freeing to be with someone who doesn't expect anything from you except good sex and some ego-stroking. There's no built up resentment there from years of disagreements, unmet expectations, financial burdens, childcare responsibilities, in-law/familial obligations, etc. There's no history of anger, frustration, etc. It's new and because the partner is at home dealing with the realities of life while the cheater is off enjoying a taste of freedom, there's no real expectation that the feeling of freedom with the affair partner will change...because the routine of life is still waiting at home. I mean, whenever affair partners divorce their betrayed spouses and try to have a real relationship together, it rarely works because they've just substituted each other for the betrayed spouses and life continues to have obligations and responsibilities just like before.

ETA:

Think about how in the beginning of a relationship the sex is good and often prolific. Over time, and with added responsibilities, resentments, etc., sex becomes rarer and rarer and more and more vanilla. Men complain often about the lack of fun sex after marriage, and I believe that is often directly proportional to the amount of responsibility and resentment the wife is carrying.


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## sokillme

Andy1001 said:


> A few years ago I had a discussion with some people who lived in the same apt block as me and the topic of marriage “breaks” came up.I should mention here that there were no couples involved in the discussion.Basically the idea was that every few years both partners would get a week off and could do what they wanted with no questions asked.
> Every one of the married women said the same thing,they would spend the week having wild sex with as many different partners as they could.Golden showers,bondage,Eiffel towering,three guys at the same time,gang bang,you name it these women were willing to try it.
> I asked them why they wouldn’t try some of this with their husbands and the general consensus was they wouldn’t let their husbands treat them like that.Basically it was ok for a stranger to piss on them but they wouldn’t let the man they loved do it.


I think going out and having sex lots of sex is a pretty common fantasy that most people have to a certain extent and one you don't really share with your partner if you know you have committed to be monogamous. This is really more of a personal fantasy that can't be fulfilled by your spouse, so I don't think that really is relevant to this discussion. Besides that it's probably the most common one anyway right? The other being having sex with a celebrity. I also don't think it's unusual that that is one you don't talk to your spouse about because, it's not something you can really do with them. Unless you are going to become swingers which to me is something entirely different and isn't intimacy I am talking about. By definition that is sex with other people, not sex with your spouse so it doesn't fit what I am talking about. 

The golden showers stuff though is, though I would be surprised if that is a mainstream want. But still if my wife said to me she wanted to do it, I would be like not my deal but if you want to try it and like it, OK. I don't think I would think of her any less, I might think it's funny though. Ladies does is this right is it about a feeling of wanting to be treated "rough" (trying to come up with a word) but not by your husband?


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## Andy1001

sokillme said:


> I think going out and having sex lots of sex is a pretty common fantasy that most people have to a certain extent and one you don't really share with your partner if you know you have committed to be monogamous. This is really more of a personal fantasy that can't be fulfilled by your spouse, so I don't think that really is relevant to this discussion. Besides that it's probably the most common one anyway right? The other being having sex with a celebrity. I also don't think it's unusual that that is one you don't talk to your spouse about because, it's not something you can really do with them. Unless you are going to become swingers which to me is something entirely different and isn't intimacy I am talking about. By definition that is sex with other people, not sex with your spouse so it doesn't fit what I am talking about.
> 
> The golden showers stuff though is, though I would be surprised if that is a mainstream want. But still if my wife said to me she wanted to do it, I would be like not my deal but if you want to try it and like it, OK. I don't think I would think of her any less, I might think it's funny though. Ladies does is this right is it about a feeling of wanting to be treated "rough" (trying to come up with a word) but not by your husband?


Slight thread jack,forgive me but you reminded me of something.My gf and I once had a semi drunken conversation about celebrity hall passes.
I picked Charlize Theron.
She picked George Michael.He is twenty one years older than her,he’s gay.
And dead.
I’m still hoping to meet Charlize though.😄


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## sokillme

I see now I made a mistake about making this about affairs, I was using affairs because that seems to be one way that highlights that there is a problem. Like I think a lot of times guys, and I know for me, I used to think that women just don't think like us men do. However after reading a lot of posts about affairs it's not that women don't think like us, it's that they don't want let their husbands see they think this way. Which leads me to believe there are a lot of marriages where the wife hides her nature but still won't cheat or even think about cheating. Also maybe if they were able to be free with their husband the would eliminate some of the temptation with someone else. Like sending pictures. That is a pretty common one. They send pictures to their affair partner but not to their husband. ????

I really want to talk about people who have good marriages and would never cheat but still won't be open. Believe me I get the whole fantasy, unicorn rainbow's thing with affairs. 

I guess the idea of this thread is to try to understand how wives feel about this stuff and why husbands at least in my mind feel very differently. Again how can you solve it, because it's obviously something a lot of women want but can't seem to do it with their husbands. That is really kind of tragic. 

For instance, why not go on vacation with your husband so you are not worried about all the stressful things?

Again the answers I am getting here seem to say if you are a man who wants adventurous sex have an affair. I wonder if there is any realization that you leave yourself exposed to an affair if you don't do this for your husband but do it for someone else. Like maybe he can find a women who feels exactly like you do and have an affair with her? I don't know wouldn't it be better for you to do with someone you really love? Often times it's only after the affair that couples do end up doing this. Sometimes, sometimes they never do.

Also I should say because I know there is going to be a post about this soon, that this happens with the sexes reversed as well. I don't see the respect thing as much with men though, that seems to me much more of a woman's issue. Shame seems to be a man's issue, being ashamed of his sexuality. Maybe because he was told it was dirty growing up. Maybe it's the same I don't know.


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## sokillme

Magnesium said:


> I think it just comes down to the responsibilities, routine, and obligations in a marriage versus the lack of those things in an affair.
> 
> It can feel freeing to be with someone who doesn't expect anything from you except good sex and some ego-stroking. There's no built up resentment there from years of disagreements, unmet expectations, financial burdens, childcare responsibilities, in-law/familial obligations, etc. There's no history of anger, frustration, etc. It's new and because the partner is at home dealing with the realities of life while the cheater is off enjoying a taste of freedom, there's no real expectation that the feeling of freedom with the affair partner will change...because the routine of life is still waiting at home. I mean, whenever affair partners divorce their betrayed spouses and try to have a real relationship together, it rarely works because they've just substituted each other for the betrayed spouses and life continues to have obligations and responsibilities just like before.
> 
> ETA:
> 
> Think about how in the beginning of a relationship the sex is good and often prolific. Over time, and with added responsibilities, resentments, etc., sex becomes rarer and rarer and more and more vanilla. Men complain often about the lack of fun sex after marriage, and I believe that is often directly proportional to the amount of responsibility and resentment the wife is carrying.


So you are saying the only way to have great sex is if there are no problems in the relationship? I mean if that is the case then again Redpill seems to make sense. Have the shallowest of relationships because then there really is no chance of their being problems.


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## Magnesium

sokillme said:


> So you are saying the only way to have great sex is if there are no problems in the relationship? I mean if that is the case then again Redpill seems to make sense. Have the shallowest of relationships because then there really is no chance of their being problems.


Well, maybe. Men are more capable of compartmentalizing on a regular and ongoing basis. Women integrate their emotions with every other aspect of their lives . When both parties fail to acknowledge this, life can suck. There are long-married, mature, well-adjusted couples who have great sex, but I don't for a minute believe it is or was always like that. Intimacy takes years and lots of trouble to grow.


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## Ghost Rider

I think the OP is being pretty idealistic and ignoring the realities of daily life, and the small judgments and decisions and interactions that can occur between spouses who are around each other all the time, as well as the major life events that change everything.

Although I am a guy and he seemingly wants to analyze women, I would note that "free" is just about the last word in our entire language that I would use to describe how I felt around my wife. I don't know how "free" she felt with her other guy; I never asked that question specifically, I guess.

Why are wayward husbands not part of this analysis? Is that different somehow?


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## Rowan

sokillme said:


> So you are saying the only way to have great sex is if there are no problems in the relationship? I mean if that is the case then again Redpill seems to make sense. Have the shallowest of relationships because then there really is no chance of their being problems.


It is well known that many women need a close emotional attachment to their partner in order to feel a desire for sex. So, yes, if their are problems in the marriage the couple's sex life is likely to suffer. Just as, if there are sexual problems in the marriage, the emotional life is likely to suffer. Because men often need sex in order to feel a close emotional attachment to their partner. Now, there are exceptions to every rule, so there are women who don't need emotional attachment to want sex and there are men who don't need sex to form emotional attachments. But for many people, that is how it works. 

Neither the male nor the female perspective is the "correct" one. So insisting that women should want sex no matter what's happening emotionally in the relationship, is just as nonsensical as saying that men should want to be emotionally close no matter what their sex life is like. Life would be a whole lot better for a lot more people if they could figure out how to stop resenting their partner for not being wired like them, and learn to embrace and work with the differences. It's usually helpful, if you're unhappy with the quality of your sex life, to examine the overall quality of your marriage. Just as it is usually helpful, if you're unhappy with the overall quality of your marriage, to examine the quality of your sex life. 

But, with rare exception, imagining that you can have a rockin' sex life on a consistent basis while the rest of the marriage is a shambles, is a bit of fool's errand.


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## Magnesium

Ghost Rider said:


> I think the OP is being pretty idealistic and ignoring the realities of daily life, and the small judgments and decisions and interactions that can occur between spouses who are around each other all the time, as well as the major life events that change everything.
> 
> Although I am a guy and he seemingly wants to analyze women, I would note that "free" is just about the last word in our entire language that I would use to describe how I felt around my wife. I don't know how "free" she felt with her other guy; I never asked that question specifically, I guess.
> 
> Why are wayward husbands not part of this analysis? Is that different somehow?


I agree. I think the OP is angry and feels entitled to consistent and adventurous sex without having to do anything other than be as good a guy as he already thinks he is.


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## samyeagar

Occams razor...

This seems to be a slightly more specific variant of the broad "You did it for them, but not for me." situation. Regardless of everything else good in the relationship, they just aren't as sexually attracted on a visceral level.


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## Buddy400

sokillme said:


> I see not I made a mistake about making this about affairs, I was using affairs because that seems to be one way that highlights that there is a problem. Like I think a lot of times guys, and I know for me, I used to think that women just don't think like us men do. However after reading a lot of posts about affairs it's not that women don't think like us, it's that they don't want let their husbands see they think this way. Which leads me to believe there are a lot of marriages where the wife hides her nature but still won't cheat or even think about cheating. Also maybe if they were able to be free with their husband the would eliminate some of the temptation with someone else. Like sending pictures. That is a pretty common one. They send pictures to their affair partner but not to their husband. ????
> 
> I really want to talk about people who have good marriages and would never cheat but still won't be open. Believe me I get the whole fantasy, unicorn rainbow's thing with affairs.
> 
> I guess the idea of this thread is to try to understand how wives feel about this stuff and why husbands at least in my mind feel very differently. Again how can you solve it, because it's obviously something a lot of women want but can't seem to do it with their husbands. That is really kind of tragic.
> 
> For instance, why not go on vacation with your husband so you are not worried about all the stressful things?
> 
> Again the answers I am getting here seem to say if you are a man who wants adventurous sex have an affair. I wonder if there is any realization that you leave yourself exposed to an affair if you don't do this for your husband but do it for someone else. Like maybe he can find a women who feels exactly like you do and have an affair with her? I don't know wouldn't it be better for you to do with someone you really love? Often times it's only after the affair that couples do end up doing this. Sometimes, sometimes they never do.
> 
> Also I should say because I know there is going to be a post about this soon, that this happens with the sexes reversed as well. I don't see the respect thing as much with men though, that seems to me much more of a woman's issue. Shame seems to be a man's issue, being ashamed of his sexuality. Maybe because he was told it was dirty growing up. Maybe it's the same I don't know.


I think, particularly for women, it's just a New Relationship Energy situation.

When you're comfortable with your husband and he asks you to do something that you're not particularly on board with, it's easy to say no. After all, why would someone who says they love you want you to do something that you didn't really want to do?

In a new relationship, they don't feel that kind of comfortable so the guy asks and she thinks "well, what the heck?". 

Somebody here had his wife say that she was done with blowjobs (NSA in particular I believe).

He said "So, if I die tomorrow and you start dating again, there will be absolutely no more blowjobs?"

Left her speechless.

So, no NSA blowjobs for the man who loves her, treats her well and committed to her but the next schmuck to come along, who hasn't done any of that gets them. 

It's seems pretty perverse, but that's appears to be the way it often works.

I can also work for other things. Let's say the woman actually likes rough sex but isn't entirely happy about the fact that it turns her on (society tells her she shouldn't). The husband tries it and is turned down. The next guy she has sex with tries it and she goes along and ends up having very satisfying sex. The husband (or last boyfriend) finds out and says "WTF?".


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## sokillme

Rowan said:


> It is well known that many women need a close emotional attachment to their partner in order to feel a desire for sex. So, yes, if their are problems in the marriage the couple's sex life is likely to suffer. Just as, if there are sexual problems in the marriage, the emotional life is likely to suffer. Because men often need sex in order to feel a close emotional attachment to their partner. Now, there are exceptions to every rule, so there are women who don't need emotional attachment to want sex and there are men who don't need sex to form emotional attachments. But for many people, that is how it works.
> 
> Neither the male nor the female perspective is the "correct" one. So insisting that women should want sex no matter what's happening emotionally in the relationship, is just as nonsensical as saying that men should want to be emotionally close no matter what their sex life is like. Life would be a whole lot better for a lot more people if they could figure out how to stop resenting their partner for not being wired like them, and learn to embrace and work with the differences. It's usually helpful, if you're unhappy with the quality of your sex life, to examine the overall quality of your marriage. Just as it is usually helpful, if you're unhappy with the overall quality of your marriage, to examine the quality of your sex life.
> 
> But, with rare exception, imagining that you can have a rockin' sex life on a consistent basis while the rest of the marriage is a shambles, is a bit of fool's errand.


Please point out to me where I insisted that a women should WANT to have sex no matter what's happening emotionally? I resent that as I never said that. I have consistently said in the context of a good marriage. However even most good marriages have issues. 

As far as the differences between men and women, I agree with all this but that doesn't explain why the shallowest of emotional relationships can lead to great sex though. In a sense what you are saying is having a deep long term relationship is almost guaranteed to cause your sex life to dry up, as almost every relationship is going to have resentments and such. I actual may even agree with this though it's depressing. 

However there are plenty of relationships where both partners would say they have good marriages where their sex life dries up and this is more likely the complaint of men though I acknowledge that women complain too. Makes sense that more men would complain as in your words and I agree "men often need sex in order to feel a close emotional attachment to their partner." Again no one is entitled to good sex, but also on one is entitled to an deep emotional connection as well. Why do you think this happens in this case. Is one partner just lying? Are they lazy?


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## sokillme

Magnesium said:


> I agree. I think the OP is angry and feels entitled to consistent and adventurous sex without having to do anything other than be as good a guy as he already thinks he is.


Damn that is some strong projection there. Not sure if you should be posting in here as it is obviously triggering you. I have said over and over we are talking about good marriages here. Meaning they have a good level of emotional connection. Read some of my other posts if you think I don't understand that. I often advocate for it. I am not even talking about sexless marriages. I am talking about the women who don't feel comfortable to be completely open about there sexuality with their husbands. It's not like I am making this problem up. It is a real problem and is given a lot of times for why these women have affairs.


----------



## Ghost Rider

Still, I am just curious, why are you only analyzing wayward wives, and not wayward husbands?


----------



## sokillme

Ghost Rider said:


> I think the OP is being pretty idealistic and ignoring the realities of daily life, and the small judgments and decisions and interactions that can occur between spouses who are around each other all the time, as well as the major life events that change everything.
> 
> Although I am a guy and he seemingly wants to analyze women, I would note that "free" is just about the last word in our entire language that I would use to describe how I felt around my wife. I don't know how "free" she felt with her other guy; I never asked that question specifically, I guess.
> 
> Why are wayward husbands not part of this analysis? Is that different somehow?


Are you even reading the posts? The analysis is not about waywards at all, read my last post, I just used that as an example because it is often stated as a reason for the affair. Which in turn highlights a problem. 

Again the context is good relationships. Not even sexless ones. I have written that about 3 times. Again I get it if you spouse is pissed at you or you are an ******* they are not going to want to have sex and maybe want to have sex with someone else. 

So why don't you feel free around your wife then?


----------



## sokillme

samyeagar said:


> Occams razor...
> 
> This seems to be a slightly more specific variant of the broad "You did it for them, but not for me." situation. Regardless of everything else good in the relationship, they just aren't as sexually attracted on a visceral level.


I get this but I am wondering if there is a kind of shame component to it for some. I think maybe some of the other posters highlighted this.


----------



## sokillme

Ghost Rider said:


> Still, I am just curious, why are you only analyzing wayward wives, and not wayward husbands?


This is because you are not reading my post what at least I hope? It's not about wayward.



> I see now I made a mistake about making this about affairs, I was using affairs because that seems to be one way that highlights that there is a problem. Like I think a lot of times guys, and I know for me, I used to think that women just don't think like us men do. However after reading a lot of posts about affairs it's not that women don't think like us, it's that they don't want let their husbands see they think this way. Which leads me to believe there are a lot of marriages where the wife hides her nature but still won't cheat or even think about cheating. Also maybe if they were able to be free with their husband the would eliminate some of the temptation with someone else. Like sending pictures. That is a pretty common one. They send pictures to their affair partner but not to their husband. ????


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish

sokillme said:


> However I am sure their are wives out there who would never cheat but still do not feel free to be open with their husbands like these women.
> 
> What is going on here? What can a husband do to help that?





katiecrna said:


> I totally understand why women say they dont feel free with their spouses. Sometimes they care too much, feel self conscious, feel judged.


I believe that I fall in this category. I would never cheat on my husband, but I feel repressed. I think it comes from feeling judged and insecure/self conscious.


----------



## Buddy400

sokillme said:


> As far as the differences between men and women, I agree with all this but that doesn't explain why the shallowest of emotional relationships can lead to great sex though. In a sense what you are saying is having a deep long term relationship is almost guaranteed to cause your sex life to dry up, as almost every relationship is going to have resentments and such. I actual may even agree with this though it's depressing.


I suspect that this is often true and is part of what leads to some women losing much of their sex drive in long term relationships.

Having only shallow relationships may quite possibly be the best way to get the best sex (if you have plenty of options), so I think that there IS something to the Red Pill (it wouldn't exist if it didn't work for some people).

For men who want both good sex and good long term relationships, this is something that they have to pay attention to (especially because many of them aren't aware of it).


----------



## sokillme

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> I believe that I fall in this category. I would never cheat on my husband, but I feel repressed. I think it comes from feeling judged and insecure/self conscious.


_
Thank you! 

You seemed to understand where I am going with this and not just defensively attack me. 

This is exactly the situation I am talking about. Not wives with ****ty husbands. 
_

So do you feel your husband is judging you? Do you not trust him because of other things that he has proven to be untrustworthy with? Or is it society? What you have been taught? Are you happy with your sexlife? Does a part of you wish you could be open with him?


----------



## Magnesium

sokillme said:


> Damn that is some strong projection there. Not sure if you should be posting in here as it is obviously triggering you. I have said over and over we are talking about good marriages here. Meaning they have a good level of emotional connection. Read some of my other posts if you think I don't understand that. I often advocate for it. I am not even talking about sexless marriages. I am talking about the women who don't feel comfortable to be completely open about there sexuality with their husbands. It's not like I am making this problem up. It is a real problem and is given a lot of times for why these women have affairs.


Projection? Triggering? WTH?

Dude, I'm sorry you're not getting the answers you want. Getting argumentative and nasty with folks won't help. If everyone is reading you wrong, perhaps you're not communicating as effectively as you think you are.

If you think that any disagreement, question, or the failure to deliver the answer you have decided you want is an attack, we may be getting somewhere...


----------



## sokillme

Magnesium said:


> Projection? Triggering? WTH?
> 
> Dude, I'm sorry you're not getting the answers you want. Getting argumentative and nasty with folks won't help. If everyone is reading you wrong, perhaps you're not communicating as effectively as you think you are.
> 
> If you think that any disagreement with you is an attack, we may be getting somewhere...


You just said I am angry because I am not getting it at home, and I am attacking you? Again project much? :surprise:

Look just leave this post as you don't want to have a discussion you just want to make accusations about me. I want to have a discussion to try an understand. I am not interested in if the discussion upsets you or not. But it seems to because you decided to project onto me that I feel entitled to sex and am angry. Funny lots of other people completely got where I was coming from and talked about it.


----------



## Magnesium

sokillme said:


> You just said I am angry because I am not getting it at home, and I am attacking you? Again project much? :surprise:
> 
> Look just leave this post as you don't want to have a discussion you just want to make accusations about me.


Actually that is not what I said. I said *I think *you are angry and you feel entitled. I have no idea what you are or are not getting at home. Where did I accuse of you attacking? Oh, by stating that you're being argumentative?

I am not making accusations, I am positing an opinion based on what you have posted. That is how these here boards work:wink2:

You seem so upset. Are you gonna be ok? You're using such angry terminology.


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish

sokillme said:


> _
> Thank you!
> 
> You seemed to understand where I am going with this and not just defensively attack me.
> 
> This is exactly the situation I am talking about. Not wives with ****ty husbands.
> _
> 
> So do you feel your husband is judging you? Do you not trust him because of other things that he has proven to be untrustworthy with? Or is it society? What you have been taught? Are you happy with your sexlife? Does a part of you wish you could be open with him?


Well. . . .my husband can be a ****ty husband, but it's not due to infidelity. He's made improvements since my 1st push for separation. We're no longer talking of separation. I really think if the separation would have happened, we'd probably be divorced by now. 

Yes, he judges me. He wants me to be thin and I'm not. So, I just want to get my O and his O done with. I enjoy it when it happens, don't get me wrong. And yes, I definitely wish I could be more open with him.


----------



## sokillme

Magnesium said:


> Actually that is not what I said. I said *I think *you are angry and you feel entitled. I have no idea what you are or are not getting at home. Where did I accuse of you attacking? Oh, by stating that you're being argumentative?
> 
> I am not making accusations, I am positing an opinion based on what you have posted. That is how these here boards work:wink2:
> 
> You seem so upset. Are you gonna be ok? You're using such angry terminology.


OK so no your wrong. 

It interesting that your natural conclusion that I must be angry, or even that I am asking for myself, which I wasn't. This is why I think you are projecting. No I really was asking because I had just read a post by a WW who said this very thing. She loved her husband but she didn't feel free to be sexual with him like she could her affair partner. Now she knows that that was wrong and wants to change. Not the first time I have read this. Usually it's a common one given for why women start affairs in the first place. I am sure you have heard of the Madonna ***** Complex. (Yes it goes both ways.) 

A variation on this for men is not enough sex, often times this may even be when their wives were more then sufficiently trying to meet their need but the men were just entitled *******s. But with the women it wasn't lack of sex but lack of feeling free. If you want I can link to about 3 I have read this week where this was the case. The wife now is very sorry and specifically says, it was an escape I could be free and sexual. It was just a fantasy. Yet I know there are lots of marriage where both partners are free and do explore their fantasies with their spouses. 

My thinking was you read this a lot and I wonder why that is? Seem a lot of women have a hard time being sexual, I say that again because I read that. I was also thinking what a tragedy that is, because wouldn't it have been better since they all said they loved their husband if they could have been open enough to show this side of themselves with their husband. Maybe they would have averted disaster. 

Then I thought maybe that is a good thing to talk about on the board as it will help people who struggles with this, I also thought maybe learning about this it would even help me and my wife. Maybe she struggles with things I don't even know about because she doesn't feel free to talk about it with me. I would like to make it easy for my wife to have this if she wants it or if she struggles with it and hasn't told me. But maybe I need to understand it better. 

And yes this happens with the sex reversed, and if you want to ask that question feel free to do in the men's board. I am asking specially here on the WOMEN'S board because I am a man and am looking for a women's perspective on this. After all that is one of the points of having a women's lounge right? But then you have to be able to ask questions without someone getting all thin skinned defensive about it and take it like a condemnation of all women or all marriages. Honestly it sucks that I fell like I have to defend myself when all I did was ask a question.

Now let me ask you why is just me asking this question make you assume I am angry and don't get a lot of sex?

Do you think it is wrong for a man to want adventurous sex with his wife? Assuming the relationship is good and she agrees (which again was the premise of my question and what most of these WS say). Or is this only a question that can be asked in anger? Is it off base for you and in your mind he should just be happy with what he gets? May I ask are you a man or a women? Have you had this struggle in your previous relationships? Is it hard for you to feel comfortable and completely open about your sexuality? Have you felt this was demanded of you?

There are people who have really good marriage but still would like to have even better ones and one of the things that do is ask questions and try to learn things about their partners.


----------



## sokillme

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> Well. . . .my husband can be a ****ty husband, but it's not due to infidelity. He's made improvements since my 1st push for separation. We're no longer talking of separation. I really think if the separation would have happened, we'd probably be divorced by now.
> 
> Yes, he judges me. He wants me to be thin and I'm not. So, I just want to get my O and his O done with. I enjoy it when it happens, don't get me wrong. And yes, I definitely wish I could be more open with him.


Do you think if he was a good husband, like you really knew he was trying would you be more able to be open or do you just think it is a question of shyness or whatever?


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish

sokillme said:


> Do you think if he was a good husband, like you really knew he was trying would you be more able to be open or do you just think it is a question of shyness or whatever?


I don't think that it's shyness. I think if I felt closer to him, on an emotional level, we'd be more sexually open with each other too. It's hard for me to really pinpoint the exact reason why I'm repressed though. I think there are a handful of factors at play here.


----------



## sokillme

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> I don't think that it's shyness. I think if I felt closer to him, on an emotional level, we'd be more sexually open with each other too. It's hard for me to really pinpoint the exact reason why I'm repressed though. I think there are a handful of factors at play here.


This might be a difficult question but have you had better emotional relationships where you were more sexually open? 

What is interesting is you seem to be saying that emotional closeness leads for you to be more open. However for some it's just a kind of visceral attraction. I wonder if that would be the case for you. Say he looked like the person you are most attracted to in the world do you think you would be more open? 

I guess the reason I ask is I wonder for those who are not very attractive if that just leaves them with no hope. (Now I am sure people here are projecting this to me saying I am not attractive). Whatever, just trying to understand how it works.


----------



## Magnesium

sokillme said:


> OK so no your wrong.
> 
> It interesting that your natural conclusion that I must be angry, or even that I am asking for myself, which I wasn't. This is why I think you are projecting I really was just asking because I had just read a post by a WW who said this very thing. She loved her husband but she didn't feel free to be sexual with him like she could her affair partner. Now she knows that that was wrong and wants to change. Not the first time I have read this. Usually it's a common one given for why women start affairs in the first place.
> 
> A variation on this for men is not enough sex, often times this may even be when their wives were more then sufficiently trying to meet their need but the men were just entitled *******s. But with the women it wasn't lack of sex but lack of feeling free. If you want I can link to about 3 I have read this week where this was the case. The wife now is very sorry and specifically says, it was an escape I could be free and sexual. It was just a fantasy. Yet I know there are lots of marriage where both partners are free and do explore their fantasies with their spouses.
> 
> My thinking was you read this a lot and I wonder why that is? Seem a lot of women have a hard time being sexual, I say that again because I read that. I was also thinking what a tragedy that is, because wouldn't it have been better since they all said they loved their husband if they could have been open enough to show this side of themselves with their husband. Maybe they would have averted disaster.
> 
> Then I thought maybe that is a good thing to talk about on the board as it will help people who struggles with this, I also thought maybe learning about this it would even help me and my wife. Maybe she struggles with things I don't even know about because she doesn't feel free to talk about it with me. I would like to make it easy for my wife to have this if she wants it. But maybe I need to understand it better.
> 
> And yes this happens with the sex reversed, and if you want to ask that question feel free to do in the men's board. I am asking specially here on the WOMEN'S board because I am a man and am looking for a women's perspective on this. After all that is the point of having a women's lounge right? Look you have to be able to ask questions without someone getting all thin skinned defensive about it and take it like a condemnation of all women or all marriages. Honestly it sucks that I fell like I have to defend myself when all I did was ask a question.
> 
> Now let me ask you why is just me asking this question make you assume I am angry and don't get a lot of sex?
> 
> Do you think it is wrong for a man to want adventurous sex with his wife? Assuming the relationship is good and she agrees (which again was the premise of my question and what most of these WS say). Or is this only a question that can be asked in anger? It it off base for you and in your mind he should just be happy with what he gets? May I ask are you a man or a women? Have you had this struggle in your previous relationships? Is it hard for you to feel comfortable and completely open about your sexuality? Have you feel this was demanded of you?
> 
> There are people who have really good marriage but still would like to have even better ones and one of the things that do is ask questions and try to learn things about their partners.


I'm sorry for jumping to a conclusion. I don't feel like I am projecting because I honestly have no dog in this fight emotionally either way it goes, but I did perhaps jump to a conclusion. 

Your verbiage is what caused me to believe you were angry.

I don't think it is wrong for a man to want adventurous sex with his wife, but wanting it and expecting it are different beasts. Whether or not a relationship is good is sort of relative, depending on which spouse you ask, and depending on what each values most. When you take into consideration how women and men process information, feelings, needs, stress, responsibilities, etc., you're looking at one heck of a complex map of what may or may not constitute "good" on any given day at any given hour. It's just not as simply as I think you want it to be and the answer I think you really want is not as simple either - nor is it as firm, because it really depends on the person(s) and the couple. 

I am a woman and I have been married to a man and married to a woman. I am no longer married and not in any relationships and have no current desire to be in one. So that's just where I stand right now.

I've struggled with waning desire for both my spouses and it was, in both cases, due to resentment. In both cases, sex started off very adventurous and satisfying. It became hard to be myself, openly and honestly, with both partners during the course of the marriages and I do feel that it was demanded or at least expected of me in both relationships. It is important to note that both my ex husband and my ex wife were Narcissists and that could have more to do with it than anything.

I can't say that I felt that either of them "should just be happy with what" they got, but I sure didn't care to give them what they wanted after awhile. I simply stopped caring.


----------



## Married but Happy

Perhaps if you cast away your inhibition to cheat, you can cast away sexual inhibitions as well. Be bad in every way to make the most of the risk.


----------



## JayDee7

Here is my understanding of this. 

Some women have an anti sl-t mechanism in their mind, a mental block that stops them from doing anything that someone else would consider sl-tty. Even her own husband.
My wife used to say things like “you won’t look at me the same if I did that” when I would try to talk to her about sex acts that I wanted. Even though she did everything I wanted if we had been drinking, she would lose her inhibitions and I would become more aggressive and we both enjoyed those acts, but sober outside of the bedroom she would never admit to wanting to ever do those things and would say she does not enjoy them at all. It was confusing to me.
It took half of our marriage for me to figure her out. Now, I realize she wants to submit fully, I have to take over fully. I do not ask for anything anymore, I just go for it and she has every right to say something but usually never does. We do everything a couple can do, I won’t go into details, but it gets wild once in a while, she loves it in the moment, but sometimes right afterward she will say things like “wow honey you make me do dirty things” and I answer back like “yes, and you know you like it” and she will admit “I do” but she will never discuss it again, ever. 
I figure, She does not want to be personally responsible for doing anything “sl-tty”, it is my fault, I “made” her do it. She then has no guilt or shame in herself, she feels satisfied that I took her and did crazy things with her. That’s how she likes it, at least that’s what I figure because she will never say it, this is my observation.

I think some men never know what really turns their wives on because their wives will never put into words what they like and the men do not figure it out on their own. Look up women’s top fantasies, see what no woman I know would ever admit to wanting any of those.


----------



## Buddy400

JayDee7 said:


> I think some men never know what really turns their wives on because their wives will never put into words what they like and the men do not figure it out on their own. Look up women’s top fantasies, see what no woman I know would ever admit to wanting any of those.


I seems that even some women don't know what they want. There was a Psychology Today article about a study where men and women who watched videos while having their genitals wired to measure arousal. What the men said they liked and what their genitals said they like were consistent. The women were a different story.

So, if they don't know what excites them, they can't really tell their mate.

But no one can utilize this knowledge. 

Try telling most women that it often seems as if women don't know what they want sexually or many women often want to be "taken" sexually.


----------



## sokillme

Married but Happy said:


> Perhaps if you cast away your inhibition to cheat, you can cast away sexual inhibitions as well. Be bad in every way to make the most of the risk.


I actually was thinking about this. If someone gets the high just because they are doing wrong then that is a part of their nature and probably will never be able to get the same high in their marriage. So you would say the BS just married wrong (to put it nicely).


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ok I know I tend to bring up "but men, too!" in a lot of threads but....

I've heard of a lot of men doing this, too. Or some version of this. Usually it has to do with men who have some kind of madonna ***** complex.

Example...a female friend who has been sexless in her marriage for over 4 years now (literally haven't had sex in that long) and prior to that it was always a struggle to get him to have sex with her at all....she finally at some point gave up trying and is living a life of forced celibacy as a result.

Eventually she came across some random phone number on the bill, and found out her husband had been paying for phone sex. 

At that point she didn't even care anymore. She's still married to him because she's just waiting out the clock until her youngest is grown. (And just to toss this in...she is the sole breadwinner because he quit his job a few years back, without telling her first, due to a bizarre and undiagnosed sickness he supposedly has). 

I've known others and have read stories of men in affairs who suddenly do sexual things they would not do with their wives, as well. Things like giving oral, fun new kinky things he wouldn't try with the wife, getting a bit rough and things like that.

And I've known of men who suddenly change and are doing things in a new relationship that they would not do before- - age and maturity having given them some new abilities to be open to more things.

Another example...a man who long ago was with a squirter, and because he didn't know anything about it or what was happening, he freaked out when she squirted and then stopped seeing her after that because he didn't know what to make of it and he was young and inexperienced.

Then later in his life he had heard and read more, had lots more sexual partners, and maybe most importantly, he had several guy friends telling him how awesome it was to be with a squirter. 

And then eventually, he became lovers with a squirter. At first they talked about it and he admitted to her that it had only happened with him once long ago, that it had kind of freaked him out, but that he's become much more curious about it since then and was looking forward to it happening with them. Once she showed him how best to get her there and squirted all over him, he said it was the most incredible and intense thing ever and loves it so much now.


----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> I have read so many WW saying they couldn't be free with their husband but could be with their affair partner. I am trying to understand this. I mean I guess I get it if they just married their husband for security and are not attracted to them. But so many of them say stuff like, I felt free. I could be myself and not worry about it.
> 
> I don't get this, why don't they feel free to be with someone who has committed their lives to them? Why don't they feel free and open when they supposedly love their husband?
> 
> I get it they are screwed up and probably shouldn't be married to anyone. However I am sure their are wives out there who would never cheat but still do not feel free to be open with their husbands like these women.
> 
> What is going on here? What can a husband do to help that?



I think it’s just infatuation hormones. Don’t think there’s anything much deeper to it.
Ask them again in 6-12 months time how ‘free’ they feel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Affaircare

sokillme said:


> I have read so many WW saying they couldn't be free with their husband but could be with their affair partner. I am trying to understand this. I mean I guess I get it if they just married their husband for security and are not attracted to them. But so many of them say stuff like, I felt free. I could be myself and not worry about it.
> 
> I don't get this, why don't they feel free to be with someone who has committed their lives to them? Why don't they feel free and open when they supposedly love their husband?
> 
> I get it they are screwed up and probably shouldn't be married to anyone. However I am sure their are wives out there who would never cheat but still do not feel free to be open with their husbands like these women.
> 
> What is going on here? What can a husband do to help that?


 @sokillme, 

Skipping all the intervening posts and :bsflag:, may I address your actual question?

As I understand it, you are a male human being knowing that men are often (not always) wired a certain way...but not quite understanding the way females are wired. And your question is "Considering that wayward wives often say they 'feel free' with their affair partner, why might a they feel unable to be free with their own husband?" This does not have so much to do with the infidelity but with the "inability to feel free." 

Obviously there are as many answers to this question as there are wayward wives. I'm going to assume you have the ability to figure out why a wayward husband might say he can't feel free with his own wife. Okay? I'm also going to assume that the husband was not abusive or mentally ill--maybe neglectful at worst but just because he didn't know better. 

So in my experience, the first thing that comes to mind is that waywards IN GENERAL (male or female) look for a reason to justify their infidelity. I don't honestly think "feeling free" is a justification, but some people might consider it, as well as considering "they don't make me happy." Well... you get what you build! Thus it is highly likely that whatever the gender, the wayward person could have been free to be themselves, to think and feel what they wanted, to live however they chose so long as they were faithful...and this whole reason is just a marriage re-write excuse. 

If we make the leap to assume it's NOT an excuse, another thing that comes to mind is an issue with intimacy. See, even within marriages, not everyone let's other people in. Very often the marriage has a mask of "good wife" or "good mother" or "good Christian woman" and the WW will wear that mask even in front of their husband because she doesn't want him to see the real her! The real her thinks of other men, puts the other men before the needs of her own children, and disobeys the commandments....but as long as she wears those masks, why she really isn't free to be herself, is she? Yet the problem is not some restriction the "controlling husband" put on her, but rather the fact that she's hidden behind those masks for so long that she never showed him her struggles or her temptations. The issue is in being afraid to be vulnerable with someone else and let them see your flaws. So she's not free to be flawed because she was not comfortable letting people in and trusting they would love her in spite of herself -- and the husband was just a normal, good guy... 

Another thought would be that the essentially good husband has a certain level of morality or ethical character that says that behaving unfaithfully is unacceptable, and yet that's how she wants to behave. Soooo...she connects with an affair partner who has the same low morality and ethics that she does, and guess what? With "good husband" she wasn't free to be her true, cheating self, but with POSOM, she is free to be moral corrupt...and he encourages it! Again, this is more of an issue with the woman and not the good-guy husband. 

Finally, I speak this one from experience. We never, EVER do know what goes on behind closed doors. Many "pillar of the community" supposedly good guys, are really controlling jerks behind closed doors. Over the years, it's communicated that X, Y, and Z are not things that can be done or even discussed, and sometimes it's subtle, and sometimes it's not so subtle. For example, if someone sticks their neck out and honestly brings up a topic, and the spouse's response is to fight and start a big screaming match, what the the person learn? Never bring up that topic again! EVER! It could be something completely fine like reading poetry in Gaelic--she brings it up, he HATES the idea and yells at her for an hour about how stupid she is for suggesting something boring like that, and she files it into her head "I can't talk to him about reading poetry." Eventually that's how she thinks of him--someone with whom she can't be herself. She LIKES poetry and would like to practice her Gaelic, but she can't....not with him and she doesn't want to with anyone else. Guess what? She is not free to be herself. 

Hope these examples make sense and help answer your actual question.


----------



## 269370

Andy1001 said:


> A few years ago I had a discussion with some people who lived in the same apt block as me and the topic of marriage “breaks” came up.I should mention here that there were no couples involved in the discussion.Basically the idea was that every few years both partners would get a week off and could do what they wanted with no questions asked.
> 
> Every one of the married women said the same thing,they would spend the week having wild sex with as many different partners as they could.Golden showers,bondage,Eiffel towering,three guys at the same time,gang bang,you name it these women were willing to try it.
> 
> I asked them why they wouldn’t try some of this with their husbands and the general consensus was they wouldn’t let their husbands treat them like that.Basically it was ok for a stranger to piss on them but they wouldn’t let the man they loved do it.




Wow, I had to look up ‘Eiffel Towering’. Ok I go to Paris every few weeks but this was new to me...

Ok I think a lot of it is BS: most women who speak like this know fully well that this will impress guys. I don’t really believe they actually mean it and that they would go through with it. The clue was in the bit where you said that no couples were involved in the discussion. 
If a couple actually opens up their marriage, what usually happens IRL (and TAM is full of these stories), the guy remains sexless and the wife finds a new partner fairly quickly (who then ‘Trafalgar Squares’ her - may I coin this? It’s supposed to mean simple, old fashioned sex). And she rarely returns back to husband after the ‘break’. Fairly straightforward.
There are always exceptions.

The OP and subsequent posts imply something much more sinister about female thinking but I think new relationships are simply ‘new and exciting’ because of hormones, not because their love and respect for their husband is somehow in ‘the way’ of ‘Times Square’ sex (wild sex).


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## 269370

sokillme said:


> I think going out and having sex lots of sex is a pretty common fantasy that most people have to a certain extent and one you don't really share with your partner if you know you have committed to be monogamous. This is really more of a personal fantasy that can't be fulfilled by your spouse, so I don't think that really is relevant to this discussion. Besides that it's probably the most common one anyway right? The other being having sex with a celebrity. I also don't think it's unusual that that is one you don't talk to your spouse about because, it's not something you can really do with them. Unless you are going to become swingers which to me is something entirely different and isn't intimacy I am talking about. By definition that is sex with other people, not sex with your spouse so it doesn't fit what I am talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> The golden showers stuff though is, though I would be surprised if that is a mainstream want. But still if my wife said to me she wanted to do it, I would be like not my deal but if you want to try it and like it, OK. I don't think I would think of her any less, I might think it's funny though. Ladies does is this right is it about a feeling of wanting to be treated "rough" (trying to come up with a word) but not by your husband?




My wife likes to be treated rough sometimes by me. I’m her husband (surprise). But not by other men. At least not that I know of.

It’s true there might be an element of fantasy and being detached from it all that helps to live out a fantasy. Because these games sometimes go hand in hand with role plays too. But I think that might be separate to what you are noticing: if I understood you correctly, you noticed (correctly) that women who have affairs often try things they wouldn’t with their partner.
I think you have the causality slightly mixed up for those instances: it’s not because the husband is ‘too familiar’, it’s because they are too infatuated with the AP and a heightened libido is a natural response to the hormonal rush which is quite typical.


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## 269370

Andy1001 said:


> Slight thread jack,forgive me but you reminded me of something.My gf and I once had a semi drunken conversation about celebrity hall passes.
> 
> I picked Charlize Theron.
> 
> She picked George Michael.He is twenty one years older than her,he’s gay.
> 
> And dead.
> 
> I’m still hoping to meet Charlize though.




Gay and dead for a sex wish list...That’s too messed up man! Divorce her NOW 


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## Affaircare

By the way, you'll notice as a female of the species, that I did not assume that "feeling free" meant free to be sexual in any way I want. I assumed it meant "free to be the person I am and express that in a way I find acceptable." 

Now don't take this wrong--I think male humans tend to get close and express intimacy via physical first, then some romantic...or let's say simultaneously both. Female humans tend to get close and feel intimacy emotionally first, and then express that in a physical way. These are VERY broad brushstrokes but I think it's relevant to the discussion. 

Speaking as a female, when I am close enough to someone, then I feel free to let go and be who I am fully in a sexual way. It's my experience with exH and Dear Hubby that fellas experience it somewhat differently and somehow the sexual expression is needed to really deepen or enhance or emphasize the closeness. 

Thus, when WW's say they "felt free with their AP" I don't think the main intention is to say they felt able to (insert dirty sex acts here) if they want to. I think they mean, "I can be who I am and not be judged." Of course, what they don't realize is that if the AP will cheat WITH you, they'll also cheat ON you because they think cheating is legitimate! (SMH) And also, if they don't judge you for being a cheater, then their own character is in question!


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## 269370

JayDee7 said:


> Here is my understanding of this.
> 
> Some women have an anti sl-t mechanism in their mind, a mental block that stops them from doing anything that someone else would consider sl-tty. Even her own husband.
> My wife used to say things like “you won’t look at me the same if I did that” when I would try to talk to her about sex acts that I wanted. Even though she did everything I wanted if we had been drinking, she would lose her inhibitions and I would become more aggressive and we both enjoyed those acts, but sober outside of the bedroom she would never admit to wanting to ever do those things and would say she does not enjoy them at all. It was confusing to me.
> It took half of our marriage for me to figure her out. Now, I realize she wants to submit fully, I have to take over fully. I do not ask for anything anymore, I just go for it and she has every right to say something but usually never does. We do everything a couple can do, I won’t go into details, but it gets wild once in a while, she loves it in the moment, but sometimes right afterward she will say things like “wow honey you make me do dirty things” and I answer back like “yes, and you know you like it” and she will admit “I do” but she will never discuss it again, ever.
> I figure, She does not want to be personally responsible for doing anything “sl-tty”, it is my fault, I “made” her do it. She then has no guilt or shame in herself, she feels satisfied that I took her and did crazy things with her. That’s how she likes it, at least that’s what I figure because she will never say it, this is my observation.
> 
> I think some men never know what really turns their wives on because their wives will never put into words what they like and the men do not figure it out on their own. Look up women’s top fantasies, see what no woman I know would ever admit to wanting any of those.



That’s exactly where I ended up in my marriage with my thinking eventually. One element is not to be underestimated is how much your spouse enjoys YOUR enjoyment of certain things. Sometimes you can mistake it for her actually liking those acts herself but I sometimes think what she actually enjoys is my enjoyment of performing them. Clue: She wouldn’t do them on her own time..

I think i mentioned before that I felt that a woman’s sexual libido is like an echo (at least that’s the case with my wife).
The rest is us guys, imagining how great we must be at ‘unlocking’ those hidden levels 
Not that they aren’t hidden (and on many levels).
While the spouse may be mistaking her enjoyment of her husband’s enjoyment, for her own enjoyment. (If that makes sense).
It’s all about the back and forth between the two libidos. The experience becomes greater than the sum of its parts as a result.

It’s kind of a miracle if you think about it.


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## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> I seems that even some women don't know what they want. There was a Psychology Today article about a study where men and women who watched videos while having their genitals wired to measure arousal. What the men said they liked and what their genitals said they like were consistent. The women were a different story.
> 
> 
> 
> So, if they don't know what excites them, they can't really tell their mate.
> 
> 
> 
> But no one can utilize this knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> Try telling most women that it often seems as if women don't know what they want sexually or many women often want to be "taken" sexually.



This doesn’t only apply to sexual feelings btw. 
Nor always to women only: people in general don’t always know what they feel or what they want. They tell themselves a narrative by trying to put these things into words. But it’s only an approximation of what is actually going on.
It’s complicated.


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## 269370

Affaircare said:


> By the way, you'll notice as a female of the species, that I did not assume that "feeling free" meant free to be sexual in any way I want. I assumed it meant "free to be the person I am and express that in a way I find acceptable."



I’m not sure that’s how he meant it actually. Perhaps ‘free’ was the wrong word to use.
I think his OP originally stemmed from the observation that women find it easier be more wild with their affair partners than with their husbands. He then changed it away from affair partners to new people, because he concluded that it must be because their husbands are too ‘familiar’ to be free with. Sorry if I’m misunderstanding or putting words in mouth but I think it’s logically all a bit upside down and backwards.

Lets step back a bit: great sex is often about escapism. It’s precisely about how NOT to be yourself. Nor is it always the aim to be yourself. Many women find it much easier to orgasm when they dis-associate themselves, from themselves. 
Role play is all about that. Having affairs is all about not being yourself. A chance to become someone else; a euphoric state mixed and enhanced with a hormonal push for ultimate escapism and ecstasy.
None of it is about being ‘yourself’. Freedom is not always about being yourself either but that’s a different topic I think.

I think his beef is a little more to do with the fact that it’s unfair that this ‘wildness’ is so difficult to channel at the husbands who have been good to their wives and worked hard at their relationships and not getting very far (another subjective and potentially flawed assumption but again, for another thread) while some new bloke comes along and takes all the cake with the cherry on the top by doing nothing.
On the face of it: yeah, but in reality: not really. It’s nothing to do with the husband at all. 
Nor is wild sex the main objective for a fulfilling relationship. You can have both. We sometimes do, I feel. But you can’t have most other aspects that makes up a fulfilling relationship with a stranger. And that’s more difficult. 
Wild sex with a stranger doesn’t last. You’d have to be switching partners every 6 month or learn how to generate that sex while your relationship moves up to the next level.




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## Married but Happy

sokillme said:


> I actually was thinking about this. If someone gets the high just because they are doing wrong then that is a part of their nature and probably will never be able to get the same high in their marriage. So you would say the BS just married wrong (to put it nicely).


I don't think many of these people married wrong. People change over time, and even good marriages can deteriorate for many reasons, due to one or both spouses neglecting the marriage or some other reason. Stress makes people more vulnerable to making bad decisions - many are not bad people in general, and it is not their nature under normal circumstances. It doesn't make it right, or excusable, but it does help explain - and understanding how this works can help some people prevent infidelity.


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## Affaircare

> I’m not sure that’s how he meant it actually. Perhaps ‘free’ was the wrong word to use.
> I think his OP originally stemmed from the observation that women find it easier be more wild with their affair partners than with their husbands. He then changed it away from affair partners to new people, because he concluded that it must be because their husbands are too ‘familiar’ to be free with. Sorry if I’m misunderstanding or putting words in mouth but I think it’s logically all a bit upside down and backwards.


[small threadjack]
@inmyprime

I don't know if that's how he meant it or not either. Could be. I'm just saying that as a female person, that's not how I took it, so I clarified what I thought "felt free" meant. 

[/small threadjack]

Here's the thing--if a wayward WIFE says she "felt free with her AP" she may be saying she felt free to be herself, but a male human would hear it as "she felt free to be wild sexually" when that wasn't what she meant at all! 

So if he's asking "why do they feel free to be wild sexually with some uncommitted no one, when there's a nice, committed fella at their doorstep" that is a different question than "Why do WW say they feel free with their AP when they have a committed husband at home?"

I think my answer moreso addresses the second question. If you were asking the first question, @sokillme, then I'd respond back by saying "What makes you think that 'feeling free' is equivalent to 'free to do any sexual act I want' "?


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## JayDee7

I am married to a wonderful woman, she has three single (divorced) friends. I hear a lot of stuff and my wife tells me a lot of stuff about their dating sex life. It seems to me as an observer, and advice giver, that women give me and put more into sex when they are dating a new guy. One woman said she refused oral on her echidna day because she was grossed out by semen and putting it in her mouth, but since her divorce she has got really good at it according to men she’s been with. She is single, I do not know how many men, maybe 5ish over one year that I know she has dated, all of whom are no longer in the picture. So these guys got good oral from her for pounding her for a couple of months each where her husband who was with her like twelve years and had two children with her and bought her a house which she kept could not get a blow. Another has talked about some bdsm with a lover and doing anal for the first time. Also in her late thirties divorced maybe two years. She has dated at least ten guys that I know of and is single, no boyfriend, just guys who saw her as doable but not dateable. The other was in an abusive relationship and is in her twenties, she is the most serious of the bunch, has dated two that I know of and is committed to the current one. Talked about not giving it up for three months at the beginning with the new guy so she might be the exception. 
I think from my observation that women like the idea of hot sex with a stranger or a fling and are willing to go along with any sex act within reason to show off to him that she is a worthy lover and a keeper, but it generally seems to not work out that way for the guy who likely loses respect for them when they do anything right away sexually. Just my observations.


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## sokillme

Magnesium said:


> I don't think it is wrong for a man to want adventurous sex with his wife, but wanting it and expecting it are different beasts. Whether or not a relationship is good is sort of relative, depending on which spouse you ask, and depending on what each values most. When you take into consideration how women and men process information, feelings, needs, stress, responsibilities, etc., you're looking at one heck of a complex map of what may or may not constitute "good" on any given day at any given hour. It's just not as simply as I think you want it to be and the answer I think you really want is not as simple either - nor is it as firm, because it really depends on the person(s) and the couple.


You and I actually completely agree with this. I think the sharing responsibility and also emotional communication/intimacy are the number one thing that a man needs to give to his wife is he wants her to be opening to having sex with him. Just being kind goes a hell of a long way too. And lots of men have a really hard time understanding and doing this. 

However I have read a lot of posts where the reason given for the cheating was basically, the dude was busy with work (sometimes that's wrong but sometimes that is the same as you just wrote stress, responsibilities like you said) no reason at all to cheat. The other is this idea that the affair let them be free and let go. Now in some cases it's escape life yes. But I have read post where the women would send pictures, have sex in all manor or places, cars, basements. Have kinds of sex they would never have with their husband. At least a one point they professed to love their husbands and many time they are inconsolable because they still do and the husband is done with them. So where is the disconnect? Is it just the danger? Yeah I know for some it is, forbidden fruit and those people are *******s for it, in such cases you just have to chalk that up to marrying someone who was not marriage material. If you are willing to destroy another human being so you can have some dangerous sex you really don't have the morals or maturity to be married to anyone. However for some even women who would never cheat, I think it was that there was something inside them that would not allow them to be sexually vulnerable to someone they loved. But why? Is it because they feel it was wrong? Is it because they are afraid? This is what I am trying to get at. 

Another thing I think some women don't understand about men is, for a lot of us it is very important for us to be our wives best. Not sure if you being bi-sexual felt the same way? But for a lot of us it's very much a part of how I view my worth as a man. I don't understand why that is not celebrated by women, lots of women seem to kind of scoff at that, like we are showing of. They look at it like body builders posing or something. When it's not that at all, it is very loving thing. Now yes some of that is ego (which is not wrong), some of that is practicality (if we are our wives best the will want to do it more), but some of that is because I know my wife made a commitment to me, assuming she is going to stay true to her vows I am all she has. I don't want her to feel like she settled. Frankly I wish both spouses would understand feel like this more. Your spouse has basically said YOU are the only one they are ever going to have sex with again. That is a big responsibility, if they are decent and a good spouse, then YOU need to step up. 

By the way the same holds true for romance and courting you wife. She is not aloud to have anyone else court her, leave her love notes, take her out dancing, show her off. You are all she's got. Step up. 

Look at it this way, say it was really important for you to have your spouse only eat your cooking from now on once you were married. And they promised to you that from that point on your cooking was it for them. Now I think you are really being a lousy spouse if all you ever cook is mac and cheese. Now I get it some times life is hard and you need to just get food on the table to me that makes sense. But if you only cook mac and cheese ever, even if it's because you are afraid they may not like any other dish. Even if it's because you don't know how to cook the other dish, when you can learn how, or worse because it's easy and you are just lazy, then you are not being a good spouse. That goes for both sexes in a monogamous relationship. Your spouse has committed to you their entire sex and romantic life, that is now responsibility.


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## sokillme

Buddy400 said:


> I seems that even some women don't know what they want. There was a Psychology Today article about a study where men and women who watched videos while having their genitals wired to measure arousal. What the men said they liked and what their genitals said they like were consistent. The women were a different story.
> 
> So, if they don't know what excites them, they can't really tell their mate.
> 
> But no one can utilize this knowledge.
> 
> Try telling most women that it often seems as if women don't know what they want sexually or many women often want to be "taken" sexually.


Is it they don't know or they are afraid to say because society has told them it's wrong to like those things? See I tend to think it's the latter.


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## sokillme

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok I know I tend to bring up "but men, too!" in a lot of threads but....
> 
> I've heard of a lot of men doing this, too. Or some version of this. Usually it has to do with men who have some kind of madonna ***** complex.
> 
> Example...a female friend who has been sexless in her marriage for over 4 years now (literally haven't had sex in that long) and prior to that it was always a struggle to get him to have sex with her at all....she finally at some point gave up trying and is living a life of forced celibacy as a result.
> 
> Eventually she came across some random phone number on the bill, and found out her husband had been paying for phone sex.
> 
> At that point she didn't even care anymore. She's still married to him because she's just waiting out the clock until her youngest is grown. (And just to toss this in...she is the sole breadwinner because he quit his job a few years back, without telling her first, due to a bizarre and undiagnosed sickness he supposedly has).
> 
> I've known others and have read stories of men in affairs who suddenly do sexual things they would not do with their wives, as well. Things like giving oral, fun new kinky things he wouldn't try with the wife, getting a bit rough and things like that.
> 
> And I've known of men who suddenly change and are doing things in a new relationship that they would not do before- - age and maturity having given them some new abilities to be open to more things.
> 
> Another example...a man who long ago was with a squirter, and because he didn't know anything about it or what was happening, he freaked out when she squirted and then stopped seeing her after that because he didn't know what to make of it and he was young and inexperienced.
> 
> Then later in his life he had heard and read more, had lots more sexual partners, and maybe most importantly, he had several guy friends telling him how awesome it was to be with a squirter.
> 
> And then eventually, he became lovers with a squirter. At first they talked about it and he admitted to her that it had only happened with him once long ago, that it had kind of freaked him out, but that he's become much more curious about it since then and was looking forward to it happening with them. Once she showed him how best to get her there and squirted all over him, he said it was the most incredible and intense thing ever and loves it so much now.


OK the first guy is an ******* and shouldn't be married to anyone. 

The second guy is a fool. 

And third how does this have any relevance to my post or what I asked, except for you to point out that man do it too? Seriously? I just don't get this and it always happens, do you think I am attacking women by asking this question and you have to defend women's honor or something? Like this is the women's forum so there are going to be generalized questions asked for a women's perspective, it doesn't mean that men don't do it too, or I think that all women do it. Seriously I am not trying to be a punk but I purposely say over and over "I know that men to do it too" (I do in almost every thread), and still someone will post well you know MEN DO IT TOO.

Yes, men do it too! :FIREdevil:

End of rant.

PS don't freak out that was tong and cheek a little. Just busting you chops.


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## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> I think it’s just infatuation hormones. Don’t think there’s anything much deeper to it.
> Ask them again in 6-12 months time how ‘free’ they feel.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Which is a good reason to wait a while before you get married. It's also a bad advertisement for no sex before marriage crowd. Because what you are saying here is there is a short window for these women where they will be more adventurous but eventually they will go back to being vanilla? Could that also be seen as laziness? Like they had it in them at one point but now they got the guy they don't have to put in the effort? To me that is a different subject entirely and kind of works the same way romance does. Like if you took your wife out to dinner and wined and dined her but once you got married its you on the couch every weekend then no wonder she feels let down. I think both thinks kind of go hand in hand.


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## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> @sokillme,
> 
> Skipping all the intervening posts and :bsflag:, may I address your actual question?
> 
> As I understand it, you are a male human being knowing that men are often (not always) wired a certain way...but not quite understanding the way females are wired. And your question is "Considering that wayward wives often say they 'feel free' with their affair partner, why might a they feel unable to be free with their own husband?" This does not have so much to do with the infidelity but with the "inability to feel free."
> 
> Obviously there are as many answers to this question as there are wayward wives. I'm going to assume you have the ability to figure out why a wayward husband might say he can't feel free with his own wife. Okay? I'm also going to assume that the husband was not abusive or mentally ill--maybe neglectful at worst but just because he didn't know better.
> 
> So in my experience, the first thing that comes to mind is that waywards IN GENERAL (male or female) look for a reason to justify their infidelity. I don't honestly think "feeling free" is a justification, but some people might consider it, as well as considering "they don't make me happy." Well... you get what you build! Thus it is highly likely that whatever the gender, the wayward person could have been free to be themselves, to think and feel what they wanted, to live however they chose so long as they were faithful...and this whole reason is just a marriage re-write excuse.
> 
> If we make the leap to assume it's NOT an excuse, another thing that comes to mind is an issue with intimacy. See, even within marriages, not everyone let's other people in. Very often the marriage has a mask of "good wife" or "good mother" or "good Christian woman" and the WW will wear that mask even in front of their husband because she doesn't want him to see the real her! The real her thinks of other men, puts the other men before the needs of her own children, and disobeys the commandments....but as long as she wears those masks, why she really isn't free to be herself, is she? Yet the problem is not some restriction the "controlling husband" put on her, but rather the fact that she's hidden behind those masks for so long that she never showed him her struggles or her temptations. The issue is in being afraid to be vulnerable with someone else and let them see your flaws. So she's not free to be flawed because she was not comfortable letting people in and trusting they would love her in spite of herself -- and the husband was just a normal, good guy...
> 
> Another thought would be that the essentially good husband has a certain level of morality or ethical character that says that behaving unfaithfully is unacceptable, and yet that's how she wants to behave. Soooo...she connects with an affair partner who has the same low morality and ethics that she does, and guess what? With "good husband" she wasn't free to be her true, cheating self, but with POSOM, she is free to be moral corrupt...and he encourages it! Again, this is more of an issue with the woman and not the good-guy husband.
> 
> Finally, I speak this one from experience. We never, EVER do know what goes on behind closed doors. Many "pillar of the community" supposedly good guys, are really controlling jerks behind closed doors. Over the years, it's communicated that X, Y, and Z are not things that can be done or even discussed, and sometimes it's subtle, and sometimes it's not so subtle. For example, if someone sticks their neck out and honestly brings up a topic, and the spouse's response is to fight and start a big screaming match, what the the person learn? Never bring up that topic again! EVER! It could be something completely fine like reading poetry in Gaelic--she brings it up, he HATES the idea and yells at her for an hour about how stupid she is for suggesting something boring like that, and she files it into her head "I can't talk to him about reading poetry." Eventually that's how she thinks of him--someone with whom she can't be herself. She LIKES poetry and would like to practice her Gaelic, but she can't....not with him and she doesn't want to with anyone else. Guess what? She is not free to be herself.
> 
> Hope these examples make sense and help answer your actual question.


These are great examples for WW, however I added some stuff to my first post to flesh out this question a little more.

I am not trying to understand the WW mindset so much as a very specific type of WW. You will see what I mean. And I think lots of women who would never cheat still struggle with this. And it's a shame because both the BS (who frankly I can not think of a more crushing pain then being told that your wife loves you but didn't feel comfortable being sexual free with you.) and a normal decent husband in a sold relationship yearns for his wife to be this way with him. 

I wonder what is going on and if there is a way to fix it.


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## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> By the way, you'll notice as a female of the species, that I did not assume that "feeling free" meant free to be sexual in any way I want. I assumed it meant "free to be the person I am and express that in a way I find acceptable."
> 
> Now don't take this wrong--I think male humans tend to get close and express intimacy via physical first, then some romantic...or let's say simultaneously both. Female humans tend to get close and feel intimacy emotionally first, and then express that in a physical way. These are VERY broad brushstrokes but I think it's relevant to the discussion.


I absolutely agree with this and and think it's what God intended. I always see it working like a pinwheel firework. 



> Speaking as a female, when I am close enough to someone, then I feel free to let go and be who I am fully in a sexual way. It's my experience with exH and Dear Hubby that fellas experience it somewhat differently and somehow the sexual expression is needed to really deepen or enhance or emphasize the closeness.





> Thus, when WW's say they "felt free with their AP" I don't think the main intention is to say they felt able to (insert dirty sex acts here) if they want to. I think they mean, "I can be who I am and not be judged." Of course, what they don't realize is that if the AP will cheat WITH you, they'll also cheat ON you because they think cheating is legitimate! (SMH) And also, if they don't judge you for being a cheater, then their own character is in question!


In this though I don't really see it always being that way because lots of times it's the WW who is buying the lingerie, texting the sex messages, sending the pictures. Lots of times they never did this for their husband even whey they were first dating. They AP doesn't even have to ask for them. They want to do it. They get a charge out of doing it. They want to do it, they like doing it. 

Now I do agree that this may be endorphins, which leads to another reason why their is no point of staying with your wife after she has done this as you will never be able to compete with it. Also maybe your wife married you just for security and was never really attracted to you. However for those of us who know we are attractive (at least enough) and know that we are not particularly safe guys, then that one really isn't an issue. However the new sex one means the rules of the game aren't fair, and you just can't compete with that situation. For me I would just stop playing the game. My feeling is if you have to compete with some new sex after being with someone for years you might as well just give up. And I will not not be the best, or less fondly remembered. Not with my own wife. Another reason I would not R. But I digress. 

I really want to stay on the topic of why the women is not feeling free with her husband, and if there is a way to fix this especially when it's in her and she would get pleasure out of it but won't come out for him. Is she just a broken? Maybe he sucks in bed?


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## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> That’s exactly where I ended up in my marriage with my thinking eventually. One element is not to be underestimated is how much your spouse enjoys YOUR enjoyment of certain things. Sometimes you can mistake it for her actually liking those acts herself but I sometimes think what she actually enjoys is my enjoyment of performing them. Clue: She wouldn’t do them on her own time..
> 
> I think i mentioned before that I felt that a woman’s sexual libido is like an echo (at least that’s the case with my wife).
> The rest is us guys, imagining how great we must be at ‘unlocking’ those hidden levels
> Not that they aren’t hidden (and on many levels).
> While the spouse may be mistaking her enjoyment of her husband’s enjoyment, for her own enjoyment. (If that makes sense).
> It’s all about the back and forth between the two libidos. The experience becomes greater than the sum of its parts as a result.
> 
> It’s kind of a miracle if you think about it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting, expand on this please.


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## sokillme

So a lot of the consensus seems to be it's just a bate and switch.


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## 269370

sokillme said:


> So a lot of the consensus seems to be it's just a bate and switch.




It maybe looks a bit like bait and switch (I don’t like this term at all) but calling it this way implies a deliberate and conscious act: I don’t think it is.
There is a truism that marriage requires work: basically a lot of this work lies in recognising how temporary the state of infatuation and the associated hormones can be and the state of ‘willingness’ and horniness they induce.
After that, it’s basically a conscious effort to make a partnership work which includes listening to and understanding each other’s needs.
Nature or god (whatever your flavour is) may have screwed up a little here: evolutionary, there is not much incentive to remain in the state of constantly wanting wild sex from husband. But husband remains horny because he’s programmed to spread his semen no matter what. 
Those are all slight shortcomings in ‘design’ that should be recognised and addressed from both sides to retain a successful marriage.


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## 269370

sokillme said:


> Interesting, expand on this please.




Well, just that in my opinion the guy’s libido is the driving force and is ‘infectious’ to the woman. (Btw these are gonna be some generalisations and they only apply to majority, perhaps the 75% of women that Buddy400 talked about, and there are many exceptions).

I used to think that the woman’s libido has a ‘life of its own’ and we just need to find a way to unlock it but in many cases, I think it’s just our libido resonating back in the partner I think. 
Maybe that sounds too negative but ‘responsive desire’ is pretty much what it means.
Maybe I will just use my wife as example before too many people are offended.

Her ‘natural state’ is not to think what kinds of crazy sex acts we could perform together most of the time (unlike me) and there is always a ‘slight barrier to entry’ for them to happen and when it’s the right moment, I need to be bold, confident and slightly overpowering (but consensually legal) in initiating and taking those acts for them to happen at all.
This in turn, turns her on, eventually. And I think the majority of that turn on comes from the fact how much it turns me on, to the extent that she may even feel that this all stems from her. And I would believe this so it becomes infectious. I would even feel that she would be more turned on than me from some of these acts (it really feels like this sometimes). But since it’s not the natural state for her otherwise, she also finds it easier with role plays, where she detached herself from who she really is (who one really is is also a tricky concept and perhaps partly made up but I digress).

Infatuation hormones reduce the barrier to entry btw significantly so it appears like the woman is consciously ‘more willing’ to do wild things with a new guy. None of it is deliberate I think. Nor is anyone particularly aware how it will all subside after 6 months of heavy ****ing or so.
For the guy the intensity also usually subsided but he still has the need to spill his semen regularly- this remains pretty much a constant.

I mean there are a lot of things we consciously don’t do that might otherwise be natural or even desirable for us to do, because we are aware of consequences. That’s why we have brains (sometimes)...Life is not perfect. We are not perfect. We should try not to be bitter about it (that is natural especially after **** happens to us) but it’s not a bad idea to understand those things better, in order to prevent them or work them out.

I think what you left out from the equation is the guy’s side by only focusing on the sexual aspect: while a guy tends to want to continue to spill his semen after infatuation period, some men become lazy as ****. Don’t give a crap, are emotionally unavailable to their wives and basically become toxic, unless they consciously make an effort to be a good husband. (Some men find it easier than others). It’s basically a shared responsibility as to how ****ty things get at the end of the day.



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## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> Well, just that in my opinion the guy’s libido is the driving force and is ‘infectious’ to the woman. (Btw these are gonna be some generalisations and they only apply to majority, perhaps the 75% of women that Buddy400 talked about, and there are many exceptions).
> 
> I used to think that the woman’s libido has a ‘life of its own’ and we just need to find a way to unlock it but in many cases, I think it’s just our libido resonating back in the partner I think.
> Maybe that sounds too negative but ‘responsive desire’ is pretty much what it means.
> Maybe I will just use my wife as example before too many people are offended.
> 
> Her ‘natural state’ is not to think what kinds of crazy sex acts we could perform together most of the time (unlike me) and there is always a ‘slight barrier to entry’ for them to happen and when it’s the right moment, I need to be bold, confident and slightly overpowering (but consensually legal) in initiating and taking those acts for them to happen at all.
> This in turn, turns her on, eventually. And I think the majority of that turn on comes from the fact how much it turns me on, to the extent that she may even feel that this all stems from her. And I would believe this so it becomes infectious. I would even feel that she would be more turned on than me from some of these acts (it really feels like this sometimes). But since it’s not the natural state for her otherwise, she also finds it easier with role plays, where she detached herself from who she really is (who one really is is also a tricky concept and perhaps partly made up but I digress).
> 
> Infatuation hormones reduce the barrier to entry btw significantly so it appears like the woman is consciously ‘more willing’ to do wild things with a new guy. None of it is deliberate I think. Nor is anyone particularly aware how it will all subside after 6 months of heavy ****ing or so.
> For the guy the intensity also usually subsided but he still has the need to spill his semen regularly- this remains pretty much a constant.
> 
> I mean there are a lot of things we consciously don’t do that might otherwise be natural or even desirable for us to do, because we are aware of consequences. That’s why we have brains (sometimes)...Life is not perfect. We are not perfect. We should try not to be bitter about it (that is natural especially after **** happens to us) but it’s not a bad idea to understand those things better, in order to prevent them or work them out.
> 
> I think what you left out from the equation is the guy’s side by only focusing on the sexual aspect: while a guy tends to want to continue to spill his semen after infatuation period, some men become lazy as ****. Don’t give a crap, are emotionally unavailable to their wives and basically become toxic, unless they consciously make an effort to be a good husband. (Some men find it easier than others). It’s basically a shared responsibility as to how ****ty things get at the end of the day.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is a very good post. I agree with this. I think the problem lies though with the fact that there are some women who are not able to get over the hump so to speak. I really do think there is a shaming aspect in our "American" culture that some women feel acutely. Taking that into account I believe with cheating for instance maybe it's true they figure well I already did this shameful act so nothing really matters anymore.

Then if you are very lucky you marry a women who understands what it means to just be totally open for there guy, and are just sexual. That seems rare though. I guess it's about as rare as a men who is still writing his wife poems after 10 years of marriage. First you have to find a guy who can write a poem and then he has to be motivated to do that 10 years later.


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## Faithful Wife

sokillme said:


> PS don't freak out that was tong and cheek a little. Just busting you chops.


Fair! :laugh:

I guess my point was just that people (of all genders  ) who tend to not be able to "be themselves" in any given relationship - but then show a different "themselves" in another relationship or situation or when cheating, probably have weird personal reasons that can't be easily made into a generalization.


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## Livvie

Why do you want to understand a wayward mentality? Waywards are in some way currently broken/dysfunctional (or they would have divorced before engaging in sex with another). Why seek to understand a dysfunctional personal/dynamic?


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## sokillme

Livvie said:


> Why do you want to understand a wayward mentality? Waywards are in some way currently broken/dysfunctional (or they would have divorced before engaging in sex with another). Why seek to understand a dysfunctional personal/dynamic?


Again don't get hung up on the wayward aspect, I am taking about the ability to be free. As I said there are lots of women who will never be waywords but still are uncomfortable opening up about their sexuality. Maybe it was easier to do that with casual sex, or when they were not in love with someone. You hear all the time about stuff like that. I guess in my mind if you have a good relationship and you trust your partner (assuming you are attracted) it would follow that you would be more willing to be free. However that often doesn't seem to be the case. The wayward aspect of this post was just to illustrate that this seems to be a problem as exemplified by the fact that many women say that part of the incitement to have an affair was they could go crazy sexually. 

So my question is why don't some women feel comfortable sexually with their husbands. (I should have did a better job of just saying that) This is also assuming their husbands aren't jerks. I know being a jerk is one of the prime reasons so lets not even go there.


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## Affaircare

@sokillme, 

So first I do think that @inmyprime is onto something. It seems clear to me that you understand the concept that male sexuality and what turns guys on is not the same as female sexuality and what turns the ladies on. His idea about it being reflective really is close. 

Speaking from the female point of view, I consider myself pretty open sexually. I like it, I don't back off, I participate, I initiate--it's cool and good. I don't really turn someone down, because that's a mighty vulnerable request and essentially that's the person you love saying 'Hey could I be close to you?' Well....duh! YES! I also am pretty creative and open to ideas, trying new stuff in new places, etc. Right? 

But even in that state of being pretty open-minded and good with sex, I think of it as PART of life, not all of life (or even a large majority of life) and I don't walk around turned on looking for a way to express that. I walk around WILLING to be turned on though, and WILLING to take the time to get there. 

Female physiology is such that it takes a little time -- or as they used to say "warm up the fry pan before you put the bacon in."  Thus, I think when @inmyprime says its reflective, that really is a somewhat close way to think about it. If you reflect caring and emotional intimacy and taking the time to get me there--I get there because you're into it. Make sense?

Now, having said all that, I want to share a strange but eye-opening experiment I did once. I did one of those "Sex Every Day for Two Weeks" challenges once, and I was stunned by the results. As I said, I consider myself fairly open about these things, but what I discovered was how easy it is to come up with a huge variety of excuses inside my head why to not have sex. For example, for a moment I'd think "Oh God, I don't want to! I'm tired!" and in real life I was tired from a busy day...but ignoring yourself and your partner isn't the path to getting refreshing rest! Sometimes a good pipe cleaning IS!! So what I learned from it is how EASY it was to think of reasons not to--reasons that are not truly legitimate but that are not false. In my head, I learned to not listen to that first impulse thought and to really check in on what's honestly happening: getting to spend warm, close time with someone I love. REALLY? I don't have time for THAT? Then my priorities are screwed and that's on me!

So what's the answer to your question? Hmmm... I think there is a part of that reflection thing that's relevant--even assuming the guy is a good husband and not neglectful, some portion of her reflects him, and if his main frame of reference is self-centered getting his sexual itch scratched, then some portion of her frame of reference will be self-centered getting her itch scratched. That's not relating--that's two individuals mutually masturbating (or is it master-baiting? LOL). 

I also think there is a part of recognizing your own mind and how it works. If the husband is viewed as the father to the children, and the man who pays the bills...that's going to result in essentially him being "daddy" and who's sexual with their own father? If the relationship is constantly attended to, and there's relating, and the wife recognizes how easy it is to say no and remembers this is someone she ADORES...then you can view that guy as your husband but also your lover. Make sense?


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## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> @sokillme,
> 
> So first I do think that @inmyprime is onto something. It seems clear to me that you understand the concept that male sexuality and what turns guys on is not the same as female sexuality and what turns the ladies on. His idea about it being reflective really is close.
> 
> Speaking from the female point of view, I consider myself pretty open sexually. I like it, I don't back off, I participate, I initiate--it's cool and good. I don't really turn someone down, because that's a mighty vulnerable request and essentially that's the person you love saying 'Hey could I be close to you?' Well....duh! YES! I also am pretty creative and open to ideas, trying new stuff in new places, etc. Right?
> 
> But even in that state of being pretty open-minded and good with sex, I think of it as PART of life, not all of life (or even a large majority of life) and I don't walk around turned on looking for a way to express that. I walk around WILLING to be turned on though, and WILLING to take the time to get there.
> 
> Female physiology is such that it takes a little time -- or as they used to say "warm up the fry pan before you put the bacon in."  Thus, I think when @inmyprime says its reflective, that really is a somewhat close way to think about it. If you reflect caring and emotional intimacy and taking the time to get me there--I get there because you're into it. Make sense?
> 
> Now, having said all that, I want to share a strange but eye-opening experiment I did once. I did one of those "Sex Every Day for Two Weeks" challenges once, and I was stunned by the results. As I said, I consider myself fairly open about these things, but what I discovered was how easy it is to come up with a huge variety of excuses inside my head why to not have sex. For example, for a moment I'd think "Oh God, I don't want to! I'm tired!" and in real life I was tired from a busy day...but ignoring yourself and your partner isn't the path to getting refreshing rest! Sometimes a good pipe cleaning IS!! So what I learned from it is how EASY it was to think of reasons not to--reasons that are not truly legitimate but that are not false. In my head, I learned to not listen to that first impulse thought and to really check in on what's honestly happening: getting to spend warm, close time with someone I love. REALLY? I don't have time for THAT? Then my priorities are screwed and that's on me!
> 
> So what's the answer to your question? Hmmm... I think there is a part of that reflection thing that's relevant--even assuming the guy is a good husband and not neglectful, some portion of her reflects him, and if his main frame of reference is self-centered getting his sexual itch scratched, then some portion of her frame of reference will be self-centered getting her itch scratched. That's not relating--that's two individuals mutually masturbating (or is it master-baiting? LOL).
> 
> I also think there is a part of recognizing your own mind and how it works. If the husband is viewed as the father to the children, and the man who pays the bills...that's going to result in essentially him being "daddy" and who's sexual with their own father? If the relationship is constantly attended to, and there's relating, and the wife recognizes how easy it is to say no and remembers this is someone she ADORES...then you can view that guy as your husband but also your lover. Make sense?


Yes but what about those who have a fear of being open sexually even if you have the other parts. Look at @katiecrna comment that seems counter intuitive to me, except the part about your husband making jokes about you. I don't think she is usual at all though. I mean there is a whole syndrome about that. But why what is the thinking there? Like shouldn't you feel safer with your husband if he hasn't given you a reason not to feel safe. Should you want to experiment more with the guy you committed your life to?

Again I get it if the guy is a dud in bed but what if he is not. There is still some women where they just have hangups with their husband because they are wives. It's like they think when I was in collage I could be crazy and sexy but now I am a wife and I have to be an adult.

It's unfortunate that in narrowing down this question I sound like I am complaining or desperate, or purposely not getting it. I really am trying to narrow down a specific set of circumstances that honesty I don't think are that much of an unusual situation in marriage. It's hard here because lots of the female posters are so sex positive. Also I keep saying this but I get that a lot of this has to do with weight, responsibilities your husband is not attentive or being a jerk. I get all that.


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## Affaircare

sokillme said:


> Yes but what about those who have a fear of being open sexually even if you have the other parts. Look at @katiecrna comment that seems counter intuitive to me, except the part about your husband making jokes about you. I don't think she is usual at all though. I mean there is a whole syndrome about that. But why what is the thinking there? Like shouldn't you feel safer with your husband if he hasn't given you a reason not to feel safe. Should you want to experiment more with the guy you committed your life to?
> 
> Again I get it if the guy is a dud in bed but what if he is not. There is still some women where they just have hangups with their husband because they are wives. It's like they think when I was in collage I could be crazy and sexy but now I am a wife and I have to be an adult.
> 
> It's unfortunate that in narrowing down this question I sound like I am complaining or desperate, or purposely not getting it. I really am trying to narrow down a specific set of circumstances that honesty I don't think are that much of an unusual situation in marriage. It's hard here because lots of the female posters are so sex positive. Also I keep saying this but I get that a lot of this has to do with weight, responsibilities your husband is not attentive or being a jerk. I get all that.


Bear in mind I think you're asking two questions this way or at least intermixing two questions. You want to try to understand a wayward mind but also not focus on the "waywardness" which is confusing because it's intertwined. 

If you are wayward, part of your skillset is compartmentalizing and rationalizing. Thus, the unfaithful way of thinking is that "here's why I can't be sexually expressive with my husband" but in real life, that thinking is messed up. Remember that one post you saw just a little while back that was me being angry with the way waywards are driven off here? It's not because I want to coddle wayward--no! But I did want them to be able to be honest enough to share their messed up thoughts and then have a place where someone could point out where they were not thinking clearly! Driving 'em off does nothing but perpetuate the problem--pointing out where the thinking is faulty at least is a possiblity of changing. 

So if we answer "as a wayward" we'd be answering with faulty thinking that we know is faulty. If we don't answer "as a wayward" then we wouldn't think that way. It seems to me that of all the people in the world you COULD trust your kink with, it would be the person who committed themselves to you. That is sound thinking. 

But then to look at katiecrna's reply, she's mostly say "...if the spouse is critical, negative, and/or teasing..." Well, you said the spouse was generally a good guy and good husband. Good husbands wouldn't criticize a wife's sexuality as a regular habit. So ... you're question is either on both sides of the road or bouncing back and forth between both sides. 

If the lady's spouse is essentially an okay guy and fair husband, and if she's not wayward and doesn't have that skillset, then her thinking would be clearer and she would be experimenting with the safe husband. If the lady's spouse is either not essentially okay (like he is so negative about her looks that she's non-sexual) or she's wayward--that means she's the kind of person who can put a husband in one compartment (pay bills, be a dad) and put the other man in another compartment (experiment sexually). 

See?


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## katiecrna

sokillme said:


> Like shouldn't you feel safer with your husband if he hasn't given you a reason not to feel safe. Should you want to experiment more with the guy you committed your life to?
> 
> .




It’s not only feeling safe. It’s a whole bunch of things combined that make you feel more sexually free with another man instead of your husband. 

This is my perspective... 
marriage can be very routine. You know each other inside and out. When I was married, I also felt like a maid. Even though my husband helped out around the house I still felt like I was cleaning up after him, picking up his socks, he was always asking me where everything was, I had to organize everything like birthday cards and presents to everyone. And I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but it is what it is. I didn’t feel sexy, I felt like a married maid and life got busy and routine. 
When people choose to have affairs, you get to be another person, show him only a certain part of you, an exciting uncomplicated part of you. Your more fun and free because your not 100% vulnerable. It’s a fantasy, it’s not real life. And if something happens you can easily cut that person out Of your life and never see them again. With your husband that’s not possible. You love them, but your also kind of guarded with your spouse because you may fear whatever... divorce, Resentment, disrespect, insults etc.


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## katiecrna

Affaircare said:


> But even in that state of being pretty open-minded and good with sex, I think of it as PART of life, not all of life (or even a large majority of life) and I don't walk around turned on looking for a way to express that. I walk around WILLING to be turned on though, and WILLING to take the time to get there.




This is 100% true. The OP has to understand this. I am a sex positive person. I love it, I enjoy it when I have it. When I want it I initiate. But I’m not trying to do more and more and try crazier things, and invest in a sex swing and blah blah blah. I like different positions, sex in different places, bring in a vibrator if you want. But what else do you expect out of us?


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## katiecrna

Affaircare said:


> Bear in mind I think you're asking two questions this way or at least intermixing two questions. You want to try to understand a wayward mind but also not focus on the "waywardness" which is confusing because it's intertwined.
> 
> If you are wayward, part of your skillset is compartmentalizing and rationalizing. Thus, the unfaithful way of thinking is that "here's why I can't be sexually expressive with my husband" but in real life, that thinking is messed up. Remember that one post you saw just a little while back that was me being angry with the way waywards are driven off here? It's not because I want to coddle wayward--no! But I did want them to be able to be honest enough to share their messed up thoughts and then have a place where someone could point out where they were not thinking clearly! Driving 'em off does nothing but perpetuate the problem--pointing out where the thinking is faulty at least is a possiblity of changing.
> 
> So if we answer "as a wayward" we'd be answering with faulty thinking that we know is faulty. If we don't answer "as a wayward" then we wouldn't think that way. It seems to me that of all the people in the world you COULD trust your kink with, it would be the person who committed themselves to you. That is sound thinking.
> 
> But then to look at katiecrna's reply, she's mostly say "...if the spouse is critical, negative, and/or teasing..." Well, you said the spouse was generally a good guy and good husband. Good husbands wouldn't criticize a wife's sexuality as a regular habit. So ... you're question is either on both sides of the road or bouncing back and forth between both sides.
> 
> If the lady's spouse is essentially an okay guy and fair husband, and if she's not wayward and doesn't have that skillset, then her thinking would be clearer and she would be experimenting with the safe husband. If the lady's spouse is either not essentially okay (like he is so negative about her looks that she's non-sexual) or she's wayward--that means she's the kind of person who can put a husband in one compartment (pay bills, be a dad) and put the other man in another compartment (experiment sexually).
> 
> See?




You also need to understand that you may think your a good guy, maybe you are but that doesn’t change how your wife feels about herself or how she thinks you feel about her. 
My stbxh was never critical of me. But I was still super sensitive and felt like he wasn’t that sexually attracted to me or thought I was fat/ugly/undesireable or whatever and it was never anything that came out of his mouth. He THOUGHT he was a good guy. 

So my point is, your wife may not think your as nice as you think you are, and it may be true or it may be In her head but either way you can’t change how she feels.


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## sokillme

katiecrna said:


> This is 100% true. The OP has to understand this. I am a sex positive person. I love it, I enjoy it when I have it. When I want it I initiate. But I’m not trying to do more and more and try crazier things, and invest in a sex swing and blah blah blah. I like different positions, sex in different places, bring in a vibrator if you want. But what else do you expect out of us?


You sound sex positive. I don't think swinging is marriage positive so I am not talking about that. Lets talk about you feeling like a maid, how could your husband have helped you fix that? Was there any way that you could have had the feeling you described that you described how the cheater might thing? Do you want to have those feelings with your next husband? Is it important to you? (Ignoring the fact that I know you husband was an ass).

By the way this is not me. Though I do wonder if my wife struggles with feeling like you say, just a wife. I would like to help her with that. I think every husband should want to help with that.


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## katiecrna

sokillme said:


> You sound sex positive. I don't think swinging is marriage positive so I am not talking about that. Lets talk about you feeling like a maid, how could your husband have helped you fix that? Was there any way that you could have had the feeling you described that you described how the cheater might thing? Do you want to have those feelings with your next husband? Is it important to you? (Ignoring the fact that I know you husband was an ass).
> 
> By the way this is not me. Though I do wonder if my wife struggles with feeling like you say, just a wife. I would like to help her with that. I think every husband should want to help with that.




I don’t know... I think feeling “just” like a wife is what happens when life becomes routine, and stressful, and you have a lot of responsibility. I think that there is an internal pressure to also take care of everyone and put ourselves last. 

I think the best thing you can do is continue to get stuff done and help around the house. But just do It and not talk about it if that makes sense. My stbxh would drive me nuts because whenever he helped he would make sure to tell me about it in a way that he needs praise. Like ah Katie I did the laundry today! Um didn’t you notice I unloaded the dishwasher?? That stuff was so annoying and tiresome, like oops I’m forgot to praise my husband for doing something I do everyday. 
Also date nights are important. Like good date nights, not just go out for an hour, eat and rush home. 
More kissing and touching and affection everyday that doesn’t lead to sex. Like a real kiss, not just a peck. 

Honestly I’m not sure. My husband was such an ass and I am also super sensitive and in my head there would be nothing that could change how I felt. (Even though I’m sex positive).


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## katiecrna

But at the end of the day even though my husband was an ass, I was super attracted to him. He had such a nice body, he dressed so nice, he wore great underwear (that I bought), he ALWAYS took care of himself physically. He was no lazy, he never farted in front of me (on purpose), he was very smart... all these qualities that I found very attractive.


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## katiecrna

Oh and he ALWAYS gave me an orgasm. Everytime.


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## sokillme

katiecrna said:


> I don’t know... I think feeling “just” like a wife is what happens when life becomes routine, and stressful, and you have a lot of responsibility. I think that there is an internal pressure to also take care of everyone and put ourselves last.


I don't know one man who thinks this. Sex with our wives is an escape. No pressure, this is how we are different I think. Honesty I think this is where the disconnect is. Sex for us is the best outlet to help us escape how life is. It's why there are so many songs by soul singer talking about how hard life is and how they want to come home and make love to their woman. Women don't sing songs like that.

No song said it better.






What is the female equivalent to this?


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## sokillme

katiecrna said:


> But at the end of the day even though my husband was an ass, I was super attracted to him. He had such a nice body, he dressed so nice, he wore great underwear (that I bought), he ALWAYS took care of himself physically. He was no lazy, he never farted in front of me (on purpose), he was very smart... all these qualities that I found very attractive.


But he didn't talk to you. You ask him for help and he didn't try, he should have moved heaven and earth. You bought the underwear, anyone can always go in the other room and fart. You can find a man who is not lazy and that dresses nice. A man who dedicates himself to you emotionally is what you wanted right? Don't settle for a guy who doesn't give you orgasm every time. 

Hah I am encouraging you on my thread.


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## WildMustang

@sokillme, I am a 52 year old high drive, sensual, passionate woman. Since I was a young girl, I have walked around thinking about, dreaming about, fantasizing about sex pretty much all the time. And yes, I do mean pretty much all of the time. I have noticed over the years that other people with high libidos pick up on this vibe and I pick up on theirs. I have learned how to channel it and turn it off when needed (professional work, etc)

Whenever I see a man eating an ice cream cone, it makes me incredibly hot and wet. Now, granted, I felt pretty hot and I was already pretty wet before seeing him and the visual just enhanced it. Same thing whenever I eat a banana. I eat 2-3 bananas a day! Green ones. They are more firm than the yellow ones.

I have often thought, "I wonder if this is how guys feel/think" (while also acknowledging lots of guys perhaps feel/think this way exponentially more than what I experience due to having much more testosterone. I don't know...I can only guess...since I don't know what it's like to be a guy).

I fully embrace my femininity and sexuality as it plays a very large part in my identity and how I see myself as a woman.

I have spontaneous desire (as opposed to responsive desire).

I am telling you all this so you know where I am coming from in trying to help answer your question, though granted, it is anecdotal.

(I was married 28 years, divorced 2.5 years now)

**********************************************************************************

Assuming there is physical and sexual attraction and a good, solid relationship-

*(1) My ability to be free with him is very much tied into believing and knowing that my husband sees me as the sexiest, most desirable and erotic love goddess that has ever walked the face of the earth, (the fact that this isn't true doesn't matter - what matters is that I am convinced he believes this) AND that he demonstrates that his raw, unbridled animal passion for me cannot be restrained.*

*(2)My ability to be free with him is also tied into believing and knowing that he fully accepts my intense LOVE of sex and intimacy and NEED for sex and intimacy and not shaming me for it (because of madonna ***** complex or his feeling insecure/inferior, etc). *

If these two things are true, I feel free to be adventurous and experimental and open to just about anything (except other people, animals and skat)

*When we still treat each other like "Boyfriend" and "Girlfriend" (you know, like you treat each other early in the relationship) years/decades into it, (a conscious choice made by both) MY SEXUAL DESIRE FOR HIM REMAINS OFF THE CHARTS.*

I will completely wear his mind and his body out. I initiate. I plan and engage in sexcapades. I devour him. Consistently.

When he accepts and thoroughly enjoys this side of me, it becomes a positive feedback loop that keeps repeating.


----------



## WildMustang

sokillme said:


> I don't know one man who thinks this. Sex with our wives is an escape. No pressure, this is how we are different I think. Honesty I think this is where the disconnect is. Sex for us is the best outlet to help us escape how life is. It's why there are so many songs by soul singer talking about how hard life is and how they want to come home and make love to their woman. Women don't sing songs like that.
> 
> No song said it better.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjlSiASsUIs
> 
> What is the female equivalent to this?


OMG, I so identify with this...sex and intimacy with my man is an escape. It is an outlet where the two of us run off together to recharge from the stresses of life. I LOVE this song so much!

If anything, the stresses of life, whether work or motherhood or housework or WHATEVER - those stresses make me run toward my man, not away from him! The stresses of life make me want to "go there" with him!


----------



## katiecrna

When I initiated sex it was because one of two reasons.... I was either really horney and already to go (and this happened less), or it was because I was stressed out and I wanted sex to help me release BUT I wasn’t horney or ready or whatever, I needed him to get me in the mood. 

Women aren’t like men in that they always get a boner while looking at boobs. Don’t get me wrong there were plenty of times that I was so in the mood, already ready and I just needed a penis. But usually it was that I mentally wanted to have sex, but needed him to turn me on and get me ready so to speak.


----------



## katiecrna

@sokillme I guess what I don’t get is what men want from us? 

It makes me laugh Bc I think women always want their men to improve, and dress nice, and help more and blah blah and men just want to come home and be comfortable and women always nag or nit pic and want more from them. Like men are happier at a lower threshold than women. But I think this is exactly how men are with sex. I think most women are happy with their sex life and don’t think it needs improving but the men always want more or better or different. And it’s like me a threshold for sexual happiness is way higher than women. It seems we can never be on the same page with what makes us happy.


----------



## katiecrna

sokillme said:


> I don't know one man who thinks this. Sex with our wives is an escape. No pressure, this is how we are different I think. Honesty I think this is where the disconnect is. Sex for us is the best outlet to help us escape how life is. It's why there are so many songs by soul singer talking about how hard life is and how they want to come home and make love to their woman. Women don't sing songs like that.
> 
> No song said it better.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjlSiASsUIs
> 
> What is the female equivalent to this?




My point is that there is a lot of outside and internal pressure on a women that makes sex the last thing on our mind. 

Men typically come home from work and are free. Women typically have a million things on their mind that prevents them from feeling free. And they get stressed out and the thought of sex is a burden not a release. 

From my experience, and I know this isn’t fair but it’s the truth... when I wanted to have sex I wanted to have sex and it was going to happen. When my husband wanted to have sex it was annoying to me. And he did a terrible job at getting me in the mood. But I did a great job at getting myself and him in the mood when I wanted to have it. And I tried to teach him but he never did what I needed him to do. It was annoying to him that he had to jump through hoops to get me in the mood and he didn’t think that he should have to do that if I’m his wife. But that’s the way it is. When I wanted to get him in the mood there were certain things that I had to do to get him in the mood. 

I feel like there was so much Mis understanding. He couldn’t grasp the fact that I am not like him. Women’s sexuality is not like a mans. And he had so much resentment and entitlement that he didn’t think he should have to do those things to have sex with me which is why he stopped trying. And that’s why I had to initiate 90% of the time. It’s why I felt insecure, and unloved and unhappy.


----------



## MAJDEATH

My observation is that some women seek APs to try new things sexually, especially things that their H might be critical or judgmental of. If the AP gets boring or starts to judge, the woman can just get rid of him - something she cannot do with her husband.


----------



## ConanHub

I have never observed that women are very different from men when it comes to sexuality.

I absolutely believe societal and cultural influences as well as religious have negatively impacted women.

In my experience, women love to chase, seduce and go wild. They are also fiercely competitive, possibly more so than men.

They also, in general, are far more impacted by negative social reactions for behavior perceived or real.

Women need to feel safe and secure to let loose sexually, or they have to have a goal they think they have a chance of obtaining, like landing a desirable man.

Some women are solidly in touch with their sexuality and know how to express it. I don't believe most women are clued in or encouraged to explore their sexuality.

Women are individuals and are just as capable of getting hot looking at men as men are viewing women.

Mrs. C has done more and been far wilder in bed with me than all her previous partners combined.

We have over 26 years behind us and are expanding our sexual menu all the time.

She started out as a mediocre at best sex partner but has easily eclipsed everyone before and I had a few rock stars in the sack before I met her.


----------



## 269370

katiecrna said:


> From my experience, and I know this isn’t fair but it’s the truth... when I wanted to have sex I wanted to have sex and it was going to happen. When my husband wanted to have sex it was annoying to me. And he did a terrible job at getting me in the mood. But I did a great job at getting myself and him in the mood when I wanted to have it.



Thing is, men typically never turn down sex because they are pretty much always in the mood and ready to go. So when you say that you were great at getting him in the mood, my first thought is that it really is not so difficult to get a guy in the mood...

With women, it’s a bit different. Is it possible that you were annoyed not because he was bad at getting you in the mood but because you simply weren’t in the mood?

I have tried all possible tactics getting my wife in the mood in the past: if she wasn’t in the mood nothing was going to turn her around that didn’t involve non consensual sex. And she also acted annoyed or found reasons to fight about small things as soon as she smelt that I might be coming onto her.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt

I'm arriving a little late to this party and I have not read all 6 pages of the thread but I will offer some things I have observed in regards to this topic. 

For background starters, in my mid-upper 20s I was a serial OM. Most of the women I had been with sexually before I started dating my wife at age 30 were WW. 

Then after 10 years of traditional marriage my wife and I ventured into the swinging world and we were very active swingers for several years. 

So during my lifetime (I am 53 now) the vast majority, probably 80+%, of the women I have been with sexually have been married to other men. 

So my input here is coming from the perspective of the OM/AP as well as from someone who has had a lot of consensual sex with married women with their husband's blessing and usually actual participation. 

From my experiences as an OM/AP in my youth, it is true that many of those encounters were very hot and nasty and porn-like sex. All the WWs really wanted from me was sexualized attention, sexualized flattery and hot sex and orgasms. 

I honestly do not know what they did or did not do with their husbands, so I can say with any certainty whether they did things with me that they would not do with their Hs. I didn't care to know so I never asked. 

But I will say that there did not seem to be anything that was off limits or anything in reason that they would not have done. 

I didn't really care what their sex lives with their Hs were like so it was never much of a topic of discussion (honestly, there never was much talking or deep conversation at all) But what I did pick up on was some of the following -

- Their Hs as a trend were fairly sexually passive without much strong initiation or for lack of a better term "hunger." 

- one had chronic ED/PE issues and did not do much to address it. 

- A number of Hs were clueless about seduction and foreplay and were also not interested in any other techniques to pleasure a woman and basically only did PIV after a minimum amount of foreplay to get her wet enough to be able to do PIV at all.

- a couple of Hs did not like to do oral on their W. 

- A couple Hs were kind of "Me Tarzan, You Jane!" type people that simply that just kept the little wifey around to cook and clean and change diapers and be available for them to deposit their sperm into and did not care about her pleasure or enjoyment at all. 

- some WWs are simply just messed up in the head. I had one confess to me that she was horny and climbing the walls all the time and that her H was wanting to have sex a lot more than they were doing and was asking her for more, but that she was denying him and rejecting his advances because - and I quote.... "I don't want him to think that he can just get it any time he wants." Unquote. 

This was a WW that would call me out of the blue day or night and tell me that she just had to get some sex or she was going to go crazy and she would come to my house in the middle of the night and bang me like a porn star and then go back home to her frustrated H. 

As I said above, I don't know what they did with me that they didn't do with their Hs, but I can say that it was hot, passionate, porn-sex with lots of oral, facials, cumshots, every position in the Kama Sutra (well ok, that's an exaggeration. I can't even contort into some of those but you get my point) and lots of techniques that would come under the "other" headings such as between the boobs, footjobs, handjobs etc etc. 

It was adventurous and high-intensity sex. No question of it. But as has been noted in other posts, there was no other relationship involved. There were no candlelight dinners or walks on the beach or deep conversations about hopes and dreams and no future plans of home and family etc. 

It was highly compartmentalized to just high-energy, passionate sex. .....and then they went home. 

There were times people literally walked into my house and walked straight into the bedroom dropping their clothes as they were walking in. And then when they were done, they got dressed, said their good bys and left. That is the honest truth and not at all an exaggeration. 

One time I literally had a gal me at 730 in the morning saying she was dropping a kid off at school and "5 minutes" to stop by before she had to be back home to do something else. She walked in the door, said she wasn't kidding about only having 5 minutes and went into my bedroom and took down her pants, leaving her shirt and socks on and waited on the bed for me to catch up. 

I think from start to finish it was closer to 10 minutes but we each had our orgasms and she got up and left, buttoning her pants back up as she ran to the car. 

This is why I jump all over these guys who's wives are displaying more red flags than Bejing but they say, ".....But my wife doesn't *have time*for an affair. 

If they have 5 minutes before they are supposed to home after dropping off kids at school, they have time for an affair.


----------



## oldshirt

I kind of got distracted and off on my own tangent so I'll try to bring it back to the topic at hand. 

I do think there is something to the fact that waywards will do things with their APs that they at least normally do not do with their BSs. 

With me, the WW did not really care what I thought of them because I already knew they were cheating hos. Their cover of being a "good wife" was already blown the moment our tongues went into each other's mouths and the clothes started coming off in my bedroom. 

There was never any illusion of them being "good" so there was nothing for them to lose. 

Similarly, there was no illusion of me being "good" either because here I was sexing up a married woman in my bedroom. They had no illusions of me being a good husband or a good father or a good provider that they needed to keep on terms with so that I would support them.

(in fact, during this time I was a starving college student that didn't have two dimes to rub together and at times my bedroom was a tiny, corner bedroom in 3bdrm apt I shared with roommates with a mattress on the floor, a 100 year old dresser my mom had gotten from her grandmother and no furniture to my name. )

When a WS and an AP expose themselves for the cheaters they are, there are no illusions of piousness or of being a faithful, dutiful spouse and parent. 

At that point you are stripped naked and you are exposed for the selfish, entitled, visceral, self-indulgent animal you are.......... so you might as well go for it and make it the best you've got. 

It *IS*different with your spouse. With your spouse, you do have to maintain some image management and you do have to live up to (or down to) their expectations or you will find yourself in court shelling out thousands of dollars, splitting up your property and assets and dividing custody of children. 

Your AP on the other hand is completely disposable. If your AP thinks you are ho/dog, it doesn't really matter because you know he/she is a snake in the grass that screws other people's spouses. 

You don't care what he/she thinks of your kinks and your quirks and fetishes but all you want from him/her is to indulge your kinks, quirks and fetishes in the first place. You don't need him/her to think that you are good spouse and parent because they already know you are not. 

It is basal, visceral, instinctive, animal sex at that point. ...and nothing else. 

You don't have to worry about all that other stuff. All you have to worry about is getting and giving enough orgasms and enough passion and satisfaction to walk away feeling satiated. 

It is pure self indulgence and self satisfaction and it is using another self-indulgent body to achieve it. No bones about that. 

As much as we wish would could and as wrong as this is in the world, very few people are going to be able to let go enough to do that with their spouse.


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## sokillme

So if this post doesn't illustrate the point, and this is that women are just damn complicated. We have two posters who have totally different takes on this, which is not surprising, for anyone who reads on here. There really is a wide disparity between women on this subject. Much wider then men. I suspect that if you polled 100 men 95 would think like @WildMustang. It's maybe 45% of women. I think most feel like @katiecrna.

The difference seems to be that for @katiecrna sex doesn't relieve the outside pressure and to some extent can add to it (Nothing wrong with this by the way, so please don't feel like I am saying so). 

For most guys and @WildMustang it does. 

But then there are women who feel like @WildMustang but are afraid to show their husbands (that is what I was hoping to target with this thread. I may start another on here and really try to get to just that, as I think introducing infidelity to the mix got us way off track). And then there are women who feel like @katiecrna but those who feel that way and cheat the escape of the affair allows them to be free to feel like @WildMustang. I am sure most of that is because people who have an affairs are just messed up. But I also suspect that some women don't know they could feel like this. Maybe like has been posted on here already going down the road of having an affair and compartmentalizing this has now allowed them to compartmentalize sex and it becomes less tied to relationship and more about getting off. You here all the time I was playing a role. (maybe introducing role play into the equation is an answer for these women.) Most though are probably even more ego stroking or because the act of doing wrong turns them on. Yes like a drug as we have all said many times on here. God spare us from those people. 

I still wonder if there is a way to get to feel like that without having and affair. Like if they can compartmentalize (which is not a gift everyone has) then why not do it having sex with their husband. So but maybe that is also maybe that is it as well, the ones who don't have affairs can't compartmentalize. 

So maybe the answer is it is really who you marry and you can't change this. I do think again a lot of it comes down to empathy. Both sexes, also real communication. If you know your wife struggles with stress of sex then you need to help her with that. Maybe you can get her to change her thinking. Maybe. Even more important help he with the things that stress her out. If you know sex really helps your husband feel relaxed then maybe you should try to find a way to make it more enjoyable for yourself so you want to do it more. 

I know from experience good marriage really involve lots of communication, which also means they need effective communication, but that isn't the whole thing, they need a active empathetic partner. Meaning as you listen you try to be empathetic to what your spouse is telling you (this is hard at times). Finally there needs to be a willingness to change your actions or use your actions to provide for your partner. All of that takes character. 

Anyway thanks for all the comments guys.


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## oldshirt

now some of this applies in the swinging world as well.

In fact we attended a club that had a mandatory orientation meeting for new members. It was an orientation to the club rules and expectations and standards of conduct etc etc but as they often had newbies and wannabes interested in the club, they also discussed a lot of the general concepts and guidelines and practices of swinging in general. 

The people that operated the club had been lifelong swingers and had owned and operated the club for over 20 years and pretty much knew everything about swinging (Think of Bubba in Forest Gump that knew everything there was to know about the shrimping business) 

The first topic of discussion in the orientation was about communication and consent and making sure that everyone was consenting and onboard. And then one of the next things they would talk about was that at some point you *WILL* see your spouse doing something or enjoying something with someone else that they do not normally and perhaps even never do with you. You are told to expect that. 

And they said to experience that in yourself as well, meaning that some time you will be with someone and you will start doing something with them that you do not normally or even ever do with your spouse. 

Any time you are with someone new, you are hitting the "reset" button and you create your own sexual dynamic with that person. Some times you enjoy the same things, but some times you do not. And some times you enjoy things with a different person that you do not particular dig with your spouse. 

And some times with other people, that other person digs something your spouse does not and so when you do that for the other person, you find that you really dig it as well. 

One thing that I noticed my wife doing a number of times with the male half of some established play friends of ours was teabagging with him standing at the edge of bed and she with her head hanging over the bed. Any time we were with that couple within minutes she would have him at the edge of the bed with his danglers in her mouth and she would be going to town moaning and groaning and clearly digging it.......and she had never done with me or even given me any indication she would want to. 

I finally asked her about it one time and she said she had never given it any thought or even knew there was such a thing and one while we were all playing he scooted her over the edge of the bed and positioned his junk in her face and when she started doing it he was moaning and groaning and gyrating around and she found that it turned her on and she liked it as well. 

So of course I told her that I wanted to try it and so the next time she and I were having sex we got into position and she started doing her thing and I stood there.....and stood there....... and stood there. And finally she sat up and started doing something else. 

It just didn't do much for me. It was pleasant enough I guess but just wasn't my thang. And since I was just standing there like a statue and not really getting into it, it fell flat for her as well.

And sure enough, the next time we were with this couple, as soon as the clothes were off, there they were on the edge of the bed with her going nom nom nom nom nom nom nom LOL

It was just their thang. 

And that can and does happen any time any time you are with someone new. 

Some times people do things with APs or swinging playmates that their spouses either do not like or just simply suck at. 

There is no question that there is a "new body energy" with someone new. With that new body there comes the thrill of exploring and trying a wide variety of things to see what that person digs. 

Over a long period of time we tend to figure out what our partner likes and doesn't like and so we kind of focus on those things. With a new person, we have to start at baseline and explore and discover what trips their trigger and there is a degree of fun and excitement in that. 

It's not always necessarily a bad thing. It just kind of is what it is.


----------



## WildMustang

@sokillme I agree with you that the answer is really who you marry and you can't change this. I don't know if it is possible to change a person's base level of desire for sex and/or intimacy.

If I ever remarry, I will date him minimum 2 years first to make sure we are sexually compatible. I recommend this for anyone, male or female.

Communication is good, but you can communicate until the cows come home and it won't do any good if you are sexually mismatched. It will always be a struggle and a headache.

Empathy cuts both ways. The LD spouse believes the HD should have more empathy. The HD believes the LD should have more empathy. And both are correct.


----------



## oldshirt

oldshirt said:


> With me, the WW did not really care what I thought of them because I already knew they were cheating hos. Their cover of being a "good wife" was already blown the moment our tongues went into each other's mouths and the clothes started coming off in my bedroom.
> 
> There was never any illusion of them being "good" so there was nothing for them to lose.
> 
> Similarly, there was no illusion of me being "good" either because here I was sexing up a married woman in my bedroom. They had no illusions of me being a good husband or a good father or a good provider that they needed to keep on terms with so that I would support them.
> 
> 
> 
> When a WS and an AP expose themselves for the cheaters they are, there are no illusions of piousness or of being a faithful, dutiful spouse and parent.
> 
> At that point you are stripped naked and you are exposed for the selfish, entitled, visceral, self-indulgent animal you are.......... so you might as well go for it and make it the best you've got.
> 
> 
> Your AP on the other hand is completely disposable. If your AP thinks you are ho/dog, it doesn't really matter because you know he/she is a snake in the grass that screws other people's spouses.
> 
> You don't care what he/she thinks of your kinks and your quirks and fetishes but all you want from him/her is to indulge your kinks, quirks and fetishes in the first place. You don't need him/her to think that you are good spouse and parent because they already know you are not.
> 
> It is basal, visceral, instinctive, animal sex at that point. ...and nothing else.
> 
> You don't have to worry about all that other stuff. All you have to worry about is getting and giving enough orgasms and enough passion and satisfaction to walk away feeling satiated.
> 
> It is pure self indulgence and self satisfaction and it is using another self-indulgent body to achieve it.


 @sokillme

I wrote more than what you probably care to read so I edited this down to be a little more concise as to my thoughts on the matter. 

This is my thesis from my perspective as a former serial OM that has been with a number of WWs in the past. 

This is why I think people are sometimes more adventurous and "free" with their AP than their spouse. 

It's because the mask of 'goodness' and civility is already off and they have already exposed themselves as the self-indulgent person operating on instinctual, animal level that they are. 

There is no point to behaving like a civilized, faithful, dutiful spouse and parent at that point because they've already exposed the truth that they are not. 

From that point, you might as well let your animal instincts take over and get as much out of it as you can.


----------



## Red Sonja

sokillme said:


> So if this post doesn't illustrate the point, and *this is that women are just damn complicated*.


Will you please stop this stereotypical bull****.

The truth is that *all humans *are varied and different in their thinking and needs and therefore human relationships can sometimes be complex.

:slap:


----------



## sokillme

Red Sonja said:


> Will you please stop this stereotypical bull****.
> 
> The truth is that *all humans *are varied and different in their thinking and needs and therefore human relationships can sometimes be complex.
> 
> :slap:


Sorry but complicated doesn't mean bad you took it that way. I just means complicated.


----------



## Red Sonja

sokillme said:


> Sorry but complicated doesn't mean bad you took it that way. I just means complicated.


:rofl: Doesn't change the truth of my statement.


----------



## 269370

Red Sonja said:


> :rofl: Doesn't change the truth of my statement.


Neither does it change the truth of his statement, that 'women are complicated'. If all humans can be varied and complicated - and both women and men are part of humans I presume  - then it is not incorrect to say that 'women are complicated' :slap::slap:


----------



## 269370

oldshirt said:


> now some of this applies in the swinging world as well.
> 
> 
> 
> In fact we attended a club that had a mandatory orientation meeting for new members. It was an orientation to the club rules and expectations and standards of conduct etc etc but as they often had newbies and wannabes interested in the club, they also discussed a lot of the general concepts and guidelines and practices of swinging in general.
> 
> 
> 
> The people that operated the club had been lifelong swingers and had owned and operated the club for over 20 years and pretty much knew everything about swinging (Think of Bubba in Forest Gump that knew everything there was to know about the shrimping business)
> 
> 
> 
> The first topic of discussion in the orientation was about communication and consent and making sure that everyone was consenting and onboard. And then one of the next things they would talk about was that at some point you *WILL* see your spouse doing something or enjoying something with someone else that they do not normally and perhaps even never do with you. You are told to expect that.
> 
> 
> 
> And they said to experience that in yourself as well, meaning that some time you will be with someone and you will start doing something with them that you do not normally or even ever do with your spouse.
> 
> 
> 
> Any time you are with someone new, you are hitting the "reset" button and you create your own sexual dynamic with that person. Some times you enjoy the same things, but some times you do not. And some times you enjoy things with a different person that you do not particular dig with your spouse.
> 
> 
> 
> And some times with other people, that other person digs something your spouse does not and so when you do that for the other person, you find that you really dig it as well.
> 
> 
> 
> One thing that I noticed my wife doing a number of times with the male half of some established play friends of ours was teabagging with him standing at the edge of bed and she with her head hanging over the bed. Any time we were with that couple within minutes she would have him at the edge of the bed with his danglers in her mouth and she would be going to town moaning and groaning and clearly digging it.......and she had never done with me or even given me any indication she would want to.
> 
> 
> 
> I finally asked her about it one time and she said she had never given it any thought or even knew there was such a thing and one while we were all playing he scooted her over the edge of the bed and positioned his junk in her face and when she started doing it he was moaning and groaning and gyrating around and she found that it turned her on and she liked it as well.
> 
> 
> 
> So of course I told her that I wanted to try it and so the next time she and I were having sex we got into position and she started doing her thing and I stood there.....and stood there....... and stood there. And finally she sat up and started doing something else.
> 
> 
> 
> It just didn't do much for me. It was pleasant enough I guess but just wasn't my thang. And since I was just standing there like a statue and not really getting into it, it fell flat for her as well.
> 
> 
> 
> And sure enough, the next time we were with this couple, as soon as the clothes were off, there they were on the edge of the bed with her going nom nom nom nom nom nom nom LOL
> 
> 
> 
> It was just their thang.
> 
> 
> 
> And that can and does happen any time any time you are with someone new.
> 
> 
> 
> Some times people do things with APs or swinging playmates that their spouses either do not like or just simply suck at.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no question that there is a "new body energy" with someone new. With that new body there comes the thrill of exploring and trying a wide variety of things to see what that person digs.
> 
> 
> 
> Over a long period of time we tend to figure out what our partner likes and doesn't like and so we kind of focus on those things. With a new person, we have to start at baseline and explore and discover what trips their trigger and there is a degree of fun and excitement in that.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not always necessarily a bad thing. It just kind of is what it is.



Wow...that’s a lot to take in for my innocent little brain...but this kind of reinforces my view that the female libido is more likely to be a mirror image of the partner’s libido rather than having its own independent life.

Speaking of swinging...Sometimes I wonder why the thought of my wife having wild sex with a strange man turns me on at all (in its theory. I could never bear it in practice) and I think I know what it is now: a lot of us men crave to see the wife’s libido having an independent life of its own. We want the wife to get horny independently from us, spontaneously and without our input, we want to experience her wanting us and not always being the ones to initiate sexual interaction and actually one way i could say for certain that my wife’s libido had nothing to do with me is if I saw her being wild either completely by herself or with another man (or bunch of men). 
This thought both disgusts me and turns me on at the same time; always felt very strange about it but I think maybe that’s probably the reason.
It always felt slightly sad to think that the reason my wife enjoys having sex with me was because it feels good for ME, not because she needs it to feel good FOR HER.

Maybe it’s getting too twisted but I want her to be selfish about sex and the problem is the realisation that it’s not something she maybe needs that much in the first place.

With another new guy? Maybe that would change but I still think the change will be due to hormones and is likely to be a temporary change. I have seen her act sex-crazy in the 3rd trimester; doesn’t mean she can ever be like that again even though i experienced the transformation.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub

@oldshirt

You are damn lucky to be breathing and not seriously maimed.

Guess you picked the right scumbags to slime with.

Appreciate your insight even though I have my own and do not agree with your pov.


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## oldshirt

Thanks for taking the time to read my rambling post and for responding to it in a nonjudgmental manner. 

You touched on some interesting things yourself. I will respond to some of your points in bold below. 






inmyprime said:


> Wow...that’s a lot to take in for my innocent little brain...but this kind of reinforces my view that the female libido is more likely to be a mirror image of the partner’s libido rather than having its own independent life.
> 
> *I do believe responsive desire is real. But I also believe that women do have independent sexualities as well. I do not think that women's libidos are one bit "less" than men's. I think they just have longer and more complex launch sequences. *
> 
> Speaking of swinging...Sometimes I wonder why the thought of my wife having wild sex with a strange man turns me on at all (in its theory. I could never bear it in practice) and I think I know what it is now: a lot of us men crave to see the wife’s libido having an independent life of its own. We want the wife to get horny independently from us, spontaneously and without our input, we want to experience her wanting us and not always being the ones to initiate sexual interaction
> 
> 
> *That is a good way to put that. I would agree with that. I do appreciate that a woman has an independent and innate sexual nature and libido. ,,,,,and that it is not something that I have to create or conjure up.
> 
> but, I also do want that sexuality and libido to be for me.
> 
> It's great to have hopes and dreams no matter how lofty they may be LOL*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and actually one way i could say for certain that my wife’s libido had nothing to do with me is if I saw her being wild either completely by herself or with another man (or bunch of men).
> 
> *I'm not sure I have heard anyone articulate it that way before, but I do think you have a valid point. Perhaps this is where some of the Hotwife/Cuckold guys get off on watching their wives with other men.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> This thought both disgusts me and turns me on at the same time;
> 
> *I know where you are coming from there. In my swinging days I did appreciate that my wife had a strong and adventurous sexuality, but I can't say I was really all that turned on by simply watching her. I was definitely into playing with other women and I was fine with watching my wife while I was with other women and I admired her skillz and adventurism but I can't say I was actually into watching her for its own sake. *
> 
> 
> 
> always felt very strange about it but I think maybe that’s probably the reason.
> It always felt slightly sad to think that the reason my wife enjoys having sex with me was because it feels good for ME, not because she needs it to feel good FOR HER.
> 
> *I think we all want to be sincerely wanted. I think that feeling is universal. *
> 
> 
> Maybe it’s getting too twisted but I want her to be selfish about sex and the problem is the realisation that it’s not something she maybe needs that much in the first place.
> 
> 
> *That is also kind of where I am now. Age and menopause and long term marriage have taken a hefty toll on my wife's libido and sex in general is getting to be something she seems to have no need for anymore :-( *
> 
> 
> With another new guy? Maybe that would change but I still think the change will be due to hormones and is likely to be a temporary change.
> 
> *There is an initial hormonal rush that comes with a new sex partner. It is temporary but it can be pretty powerful at the time.
> 
> The problem with age/menopause/some medications and some hormonal birth control etc is that in order for that hormone rush to occur, the hormonal system has to be intact and functional to begin with.
> 
> With a healthy, fertile women that is not damped by hormonal birth control, that response can be profound and much of that hormone rush is left over for days, often times much to the benefit of her husband.
> 
> In a post-menopausal or other woman without that hormonal response - not so much.
> 
> For several years she would ravage me when we would get home from a good encounter and sometimes we would ride that wave for days.
> 
> I knew our swinging days were winding down when we would get home and she would say, "Naw, I'm good. It's late, I just want to get some sleep."
> 
> It only took that happening a couple times before the thrill and benefit of swinging wore off. *
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen her act sex-crazy in the 3rd trimester; doesn’t mean she can ever be like that again even though i experienced the transformation.
> 
> *Been there, done that as well. The response in swinging was very similar. *
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt

ConanHub said:


> @oldshirt
> 
> You are damn lucky to be breathing and not seriously maimed.
> 
> Guess you picked the right scumbags to slime with.
> 
> Appreciate your insight even though I have my own and do not agree with your pov.


Yeah, I am fortunate that I never took a bullet or 2x4 upside the head. 

This was 25 or so years ago in my youth and I do feel differently about it now and I am not proud of it. 

Now I try to share my experiences and perspectives to help BS's understand some of the warning signs and offer insight into minds and behaviors of OMs. 

One of the things I harp on the most and try to debunk the hardest is BSs that think that their WS doesn't have time to have an affair. 

Affairs are completely different than dating relationships. 

An affair can literally start over a wink or a single flirt....anything that takes off the mask of civility for a moment to reveal their true nature. If the other person of the same persuasion, they will identify each other and can be off to the races in an extremely short period of time. The actual trysts and hook ups can take in minutes. 

My experiences have also lead me to believe that As are much much more commonplace than even the people here on TAM realize.  And the vast majority of As go completely undetected. 

To my knowledge only one of the WW I was with ever came clean. As far as I know, none of the others were ever caught. I do know a couple of them are still married to their same BH today 20+ years later. A couple have since divorced but it had nothing to do with me (at least not directly) 

I do not believe my experiences to be unique. I am not tall, handsome, buff or all that charming. I am completely average in looks, height, stature, income and social status. If you saw me in the produce aisle of the grocery store you'd think I had been with a couple steady girlfriends then married my college GF and had spent 30 years as just another married schmuck. 

The more I have lived and learned, the more prevalent I think infidelity really is. 

You may think I am slime, and maybe I am. But my POV is based on my firsthand experiences and I offer up my thoughts and opinions and experiences to help others understand what they are up against and what is out there.


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## sokillme

oldshirt said:


> Yeah, I am fortunate that I never took a bullet or 2x4 upside the head.
> 
> This was 25 or so years ago in my youth and I do feel differently about it now and I am not proud of it.
> 
> Now I try to share my experiences and perspectives to help BS's understand some of the warning signs and offer insight into minds and behaviors of OMs.
> 
> One of the things I harp on the most and try to debunk the hardest is BSs that think that their WS doesn't have time to have an affair.
> 
> Affairs are completely different than dating relationships.
> 
> An affair can literally start over a wink or a single flirt....anything that takes off the mask of civility for a moment to reveal their true nature. If the other person of the same persuasion, they will identify each other and can be off to the races in an extremely short period of time. The actual trysts and hook ups can take in minutes.
> 
> My experiences have also lead me to believe that As are much much more commonplace than even the people here on TAM realize. And the vast majority of As go completely undetected.
> 
> To my knowledge only one of the WW I was with ever came clean. As far as I know, none of the others were ever caught. I do know a couple of them are still married to their same BH today 20+ years later. A couple have since divorced but it had nothing to do with me (at least not directly)
> 
> I do not believe my experiences to be unique. I am not tall, handsome, buff or all that charming. I am completely average in looks, height, stature, income and social status. If you saw me in the produce aisle of the grocery store you'd think I had been with a couple steady girlfriends then married my college GF and had spent 30 years as just another married schmuck.
> 
> The more I have lived and learned, the more prevalent I think infidelity really is.
> 
> You may think I am slime, and maybe I am. But my POV is based on my firsthand experiences and I offer up my thoughts and opinions and experiences to help others understand what they are up against and what is out there.


I completely agree with all of this. It's like I always say. Two types of people in the world. Sucks if you are the monogamous type and marry the other type. It's why you shouldn't stay with them.

What are you going to do when the Karma train hits?


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## MAJDEATH

oldshirt said:


> Yeah, I am fortunate that I never took a bullet or 2x4 upside the head.
> 
> This was 25 or so years ago in my youth and I do feel differently about it now and I am not proud of it.
> 
> Now I try to share my experiences and perspectives to help BS's understand some of the warning signs and offer insight into minds and behaviors of OMs.
> 
> One of the things I harp on the most and try to debunk the hardest is BSs that think that their WS doesn't have time to have an affair.
> 
> Affairs are completely different than dating relationships.
> 
> An affair can literally start over a wink or a single flirt....anything that takes off the mask of civility for a moment to reveal their true nature. If the other person of the same persuasion, they will identify each other and can be off to the races in an extremely short period of time. The actual trysts and hook ups can take in minutes.
> 
> My experiences have also lead me to believe that As are much much more commonplace than even the people here on TAM realize. And the vast majority of As go completely undetected.
> 
> To my knowledge only one of the WW I was with ever came clean. As far as I know, none of the others were ever caught. I do know a couple of them are still married to their same BH today 20+ years later. A couple have since divorced but it had nothing to do with me (at least not directly)
> 
> I do not believe my experiences to be unique. I am not tall, handsome, buff or all that charming. I am completely average in looks, height, stature, income and social status. If you saw me in the produce aisle of the grocery store you'd think I had been with a couple steady girlfriends then married my college GF and had spent 30 years as just another married schmuck.
> 
> The more I have lived and learned, the more prevalent I think infidelity really is.
> 
> You may think I am slime, and maybe I am. But my POV is based on my firsthand experiences and I offer up my thoughts and opinions and experiences to help others understand what they are up against and what is out there.


I for one appreciate the perspective of a former OM. I was able to talk with one of my fWW's OM but I was never sure I was getting the full truth. I think he was shocked that some purloined husband was contacting him out of the blue, discovering the A ten years after the fact. Perhaps we can learn more about the dynamics of the OM's thought process, and use that to try to prevent that situation from happening (realizing it takes 2 to tango). Perhaps we can start a new area on TAM: "Confessions of a former OM".

BTW, regarding the subject of this thread I did ask my W about 10 minutes ago if she felt that she could only do certain sexual things with her AP and not her husband (me) and she said no. She said at that time it was more about "putting her on a pedestal" and filling her love tank with how wonderful she was, etc. And that was what was lacking from her H.


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## sokillme

MAJDEATH said:


> I for one appreciate the perspective of a former OM. I was able to talk with one of my fWW's OM but I was never sure I was getting the full truth. I think he was shocked that some purloined husband was contacting him out of the blue, discovering the A ten years after the fact. Perhaps we can learn more about the dynamics of the OM's thought process, and use that to try to prevent that situation from happening (realizing it takes 2 to tango). Perhaps we can start a new area on TAM: "Confessions of a former OM".
> 
> BTW, regarding the subject of this thread I did ask my W about 10 minutes ago if she felt that she could only do certain sexual things with her AP and not her husband (me) and she said no. She said at that time it was more about "putting her on a pedestal" and filling her love tank with how wonderful she was, etc. And that was what was lacking from her H.


The only way to prevent cheating is not to marry a cheater. It's in their nature. Which kind of defeats the purpose of this post I guess. But I wasn't really talking about trying to stop the cheating. I was more talking about the wife who won't cheat but still struggles to be free with her husband because of outside pressures and what I personally think is some kind of misguided shame about her sexuality and desires. 

Anyway, going back to the original point I guess the answer is some couples have a good enough dynamic that it can grow into this. Probably easier if you just marry someone who is already free however if you are monogamous you still need them to be monogamous.


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## sokillme

Red Sonja said:


> :rofl: Doesn't change the truth of my statement.


Personally I love that women are complicated. It makes them interesting. I sometimes feel bad for women because us men are really pretty simple. And just because something may be a stereotype it doesn't make it sexist. This is how our thinking on this is very different. I believe that just because the sexes are different it doesn't make either one of them any less valid, or either one of them more valuable. I find in general women are more complicated internally than men. I think most people would agree they have much more complicated inner lives then men do. I know my wife does. Again that is not a bad thing, it's just a different thing. I think it does create frustration between us though because a lot of times I think we can say exactly the same thing but be speaking a different language.

I find I must constantly remind myself that my wife and I can experience the very same event, even describe it the very same way, but our experience may still be very different. Because our thinking is different, our experience is different. The way we think is different. Now me saying that may make you uncomfortable, but it doesn't make it any less true. Actually thinking this way serves me well. It helps me have greater empathy and also not just assume I get what she is saying. Personally I think this modern kind of claptrap that is taught now that there is no difference is actually damaging because if there is no difference the why does it seem like we have such a hard time communicating?

See the premise is wrong. If you think you and your spouse are not communicating well but you go into it with the premise that they think exactly the same way as you do then you have to assume there is some underlying negative reason and leave it at that. However if you understand that you both may be saying exactly the same thing but your nature makes how you think about these things very different then you can learn that you need to communicate on a even deeper or baser lever. You may have to say, what I mean when I say this is this. But that works a lot better.

The idea that we are all the same is naive at best. It's not even a stereotype it's a scientific fact.


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## MAJDEATH

Maybe it's as simple as some Ws can trust their spouse to not be critical/judgemental if they are honest about wanting to try something new (sexually), and other Ws cannot, so they refrain from trying. And some go outside marriage to try.


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## Red Sonja

I don't think men and women are the same, in my experience no 2 people (of either gender) are the same. I do not like gross generalizations that characterize _any _group because it will prevent those who believe them from experiencing people as individuals.

If you believe such generalizations ... all women are ?, all men are ?, all Christians are ?, all Muslims are ?, all Americans are ? (etc.) ... then you are limiting yourself and your experiences in life.

Peace.




sokillme said:


> Personally I love that women are complicated. It makes them interesting. I sometimes feel bad for women because us men are really pretty simple. And just because something may be a stereotype it doesn't make it sexist. This is how our thinking on this is very different. I believe that just because the sexes are different it doesn't make either one of them any less valid, or either one of them more valuable. I find in general women are more complicated internally than men. I think most people would agree they have much more complicated inner lives then men do. I know my wife does. Again that is not a bad thing, it's just a different thing. I think it does create frustration between us though because a lot of times I think we can say exactly the same thing but be speaking a different language.
> 
> I find I must constantly remind myself that my wife and I can experience the very same event, even describe it the very same way, but our experience may still be very different. Because our thinking is different, our experience is different. The way we think is different. Now me saying that may make you uncomfortable, but it doesn't make it any less true. Actually thinking this way serves me well. It helps me have greater empathy and also not just assume I get what she is saying. Personally I think this modern kind of claptrap that is taught now that there is no difference is actually damaging because if there is no difference the why does it seem like we have such a hard time communicating?
> 
> See the premise is wrong. If you think you and your spouse are not communicating well but you go into it with the premise that they think exactly the same way as you do then you have to assume there is some underlying negative reason and leave it at that. However if you understand that you both may be saying exactly the same thing but your nature makes how you think about these things very different then you can learn that you need to communicate on a even deeper or baser lever. You may have to say, what I mean when I say this is this. But that works a lot better.
> 
> The idea that we are all the same is naive at best. It's not even a stereotype it's a scientific fact.


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## Handy

*Marvin Gay, "Sexual Healing" What is the female equivalent to this?*

Maybe not the equivalent, but these songs present female desire in a coded way.

Nina Simone-I Want A Little Sugar In My Bowl





Maria Muldaur - Midnight At The Oasis (1974)






Oldshirt, thanks for presenting the OM version. I agree that being married, some people play it safe and are inhibited to project a "good person image" and refrain from exploring their sexuality.


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## ConanHub

I actually agree with your take on infidelity @oldshirt though I gained my insights without cheating.

I didn't call you slime now but referred to what you use to do as slime.

I know well people can change.


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## lovelygirl

I haven't read the other posts but one of the reasons women are not sexually free in bed with their H, is the fear of being *judged.*

A few days ago I happened to be chatting with a friend whose H of 2 moths gave her a strange look when she told him she wanted to try anal.
He was like: "You know this stuff?? Where the hell did you learn that from?? :| Are you crazy?? Stop it! Let's revert to a more normal positions."

She said he looked at her as some sort of "sl*t" as he thought she was too prude to try that position. In one of the following days he had even told her to never do that again ... as only ****s and prostitutes want to try those things. 

:slap:


You men are sooo complicated and so double-standard!!! This is not the first case I've heard of this stuff between long-time partners or married couple. 
You say you want "a b*tch in bed and a lady in the street" but once she does all that, you start questioning how-come she wants it and see it as unfair to do it with her. 
Therefore, for fear of being judged, she feels more free with the AP because she knows what they're in for and she doesn't really care what AP thinks. 
But, her H thinks she's too prude for that stuff and she's not "allowed" to even think about it, let alone ask for it. :|

I'm sure a woman is as "WILD" as her SO allows her to be / makes her feel. 
So, if she's not as "wild" as you wish, check your behavior and how you make her feel - and not only in the bedroom, but also outside of it!


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## Tony Conrad

Interesting. A wife he thought a prude wants to try something and he shuts her down. My wife appears a prude sometimes. We had been trying oral sex until she said she is uncomfortable with it. Fair enough. We don't do it now. One doesn't have to do everything necessarily. When asked about spanking she was very comfortable with it amazingly enough and we have been doing that comfortably for a very long time. She was a virgin and hadn't even masturbated ever as she thinks it was wrong. 

Even if a spouse accepts to do something that one likes one still has to be careful to keep their respect. This will mean we only ask when we are really being switched on by the thought and not doing it for the sake of it. The most important thing is the relationship in these things and to accept that the spouse has adjusted to please and that it is not natural to them necessarily. My wife does stuff that I like but the golden word would be "that switches me on too". I haven't heard that kind of word yet so cannot assume too much. I do try to satisfy what she wants but she is extremely silent on what she likes so I have to try and sense it.


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