# Pretty Much Have Lost It



## DailyGrind

I hope this isn't long...but apologize if it is. I've posted before about problems with my wife. And have pretty much spent the past year, off and on reading through these posts...looking for something that could help my situation. Things have taken a dramatic turn, so I can no longer simply ignore the clanging alarms in my marriage.

My wife and I have been emotionally gone for over two years. By that...I mean she was gone. I've tried a number of times to reach out to her...but she just wasn't there. I finally gave up. We get along, on a day to day basis...but totally only on the surface. We just "celebrated" our 12th anniversary. By that...once again...I remembered...and she did not. I got her a massage/manicure/pedicure at the spa. A three hour treatment. She....did nothing...and didn't even thank me. 

We have NEVER really argued, in the past (part of our problem, I suppose.) We both just do our little snide retortes, and run. We never address our issues. I think, last weekend, was sort of a turning point. I actually realized I couldn't take it any more, and pushed back. Then, yesterday we were at a outing, where we both had a bit too much.....and the argument sort of flowed. Oddly...in a very low key (pretty much no one could tell) manner. But, I kept getting "your rediculous", "your too sensitive"...to all my issues (like her not even thanking me for the anniversary present....she claims she did....but I just "didn't hear her".....kind of the point of thanking someone, isn't it?)

We have two little adorable kids (6 and 8) who are pretty much why I am still in this thing. THAT...and we can't afford to separate, financially. So...for years now...I've just been ignoring the problems, and not confronting.

After we went to the outing, yesterday....one of the couples there (my wife knows the guy from our daughter's dance class) asked us over to their house, to continue the party. While we were trying to find their house (I had just met them...and my wife had only just met his wife), my wife comes out with..I'll just give him a call. I immediately aske how she had his number...to which she replied .."in case we are going to be late to dance class." I found this odd, as A) the dance class is in the same bldg as my daughter's after-school care; and B)....wouldn't she have the TEACHER's number for that? Why have another father's number?

So...this morning I start snooping my wife's emails...and sure enough....there is something starting up between them. Nothing physical...but definitely signs of an emotional thing starting. Because of that, and our fighting last night...I told my wife (still in bed, due to too much wine last night) that we needed to talk tonight.

Here's my problems:

A) I truly love my wife with all my heart, but things have been SOOOO bad, for so long...I just don't even know if it makes sense. We have been so long from a normal relationship, which I truly long for from her...but I just don't know how to reach out to her. We tried counseling with our minister, last year....but he really didn't do much and nothing changed. We only had 4-5 sessions.
B) She is obviously opening up to this guy, that I just met last night. Nothing sexual, as yet. But a few borderline comments. And...appears to be some history re-writing..and the two lamenting their awful marriages.
C) After I left for work, she emailed the following to this guy after he asked if it was a "divorce/separation" talk (which stings the most): 

"_I'm pretty certain it will be. I don't think either of us can hang in there. He doesn't really even have a good reason for marrying me. I'm sure he liked the idea of me but never actually liked me and most certainly has never "gotten" me. I can only be nice and take crap for so long. I feel like he has taken advantage of that for many years. And I don't like what it has done to me over the years. If you had something solid to begin with then try to fix things, but I don't think we ever had that. I know I've suggested being unhappy but nothing like this. Sorry to unload. _"

:scratchhead:

This is the woman that I sacrificed years of financial stability to make her dream of owning a business come true. We spent four years, draining my salary (going into debt)...so she could own a store. I worked most weekends, after my full-time job...helping her. I sold my boat, to pay for her store. Finally, we got to the point where we HAD to close it. Then, we wanted a house. I told her she had to get a job, for us to afford one. Our youngest was only one...so she wanted to wait. A year later, we bought the house...but she STILL waited another two years to get a job. I had to BEG her to. MORE financial strain. We are on the cusp of FINALLY getting out of this...which I hoped would help us going forward.

I know I haven't dealt with things properly, between us. But I'm SURE I'm not the only one to blame. I reading her comments above, and I can't believe the anger.

She just posted THIS to the guy:
"_It sounds like you've has it pretty rough too. I hope you can get through it. Kids do change things. Its even harder when parents can't be on the same page about how to raise kids. And then there are competitions about who does more. so much resentment over the years. a year and a half ago I decided I was done just taking it and just kind of cut off emotionally but that's a really cold way to live. I was hoping to stay together for the kids but we're just setting a bad example for them. When he was yelling at me Saturday during breakfast poor Emily started to cry, ran over to me and buried her face in my shoulder all the while he continued. After he left she asked if we were going to get a divorce. It was really sad. We tried counseling briefly but it didn't and won't work._ "

More history rewriting.....my daught DID start crying, and ran over to my wife...AFTER I left the room. I saw her start welling up, and stopped. Nice way to make me the villian. I yelled at her, cause I'd HAD IT with her condescending comments. I was telling her about me getting Groupon alerts, and some of them were funning. She cut me off, mid-story with "did you subscribe to [Big City] or [Our Suburban Town outside of city]?"...in a real short/snotty way. I replied you can ONLY get [Big City]...they don't cater to every little town. "Well...I've seen them for things in town here.".....like I'm a complete idiot. So, I lost it. I told her she does this to me all the time. She'll see me carrying my daughter's comforter upstairs, from the dryer. Her: "What's that?" 
Me: [daughter's] comforter.
Her: "Is it dry?"

WTF???!!! No...I thought I'd put a wet comforter on her bed!!

All the freek'n time!!

Just looking for some advice. Again..sorry for the long post.


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## sinnister

Sorry to say she's checked out years ago. I wish I understood better what the signs were before things get to EA like it seems to have in your case.

You're in a rough spot man. I hope things work out for you guys but she doesn't look to want them to.


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## Rob774

Sorry to read all this about your relationship. It appears as if she's gaslighting you a bit here. And the fact that she tells your marriage to another dude... HUGE Red Flag there. Making it sound to him as if you are the only one at fault here.

You are going to take heat for this, but you are going to have to confront her on these emails, screw her reaction, do it now because they are probably already at EA stage, and once the mutual sympathies well up, he will be in her pants. Confront her and tell her to have NC with this dude. Stay firm, because she will try to gaslight you some more. Your situation seems savable, but she has to be willing to do her part.


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## Entropy3000

Rob774 said:


> Sorry to read all this about your relationship. It appears as if she's gaslighting you a bit here. And the fact that she tells your marriage to another dude... HUGE Red Flag there. Making it sound to him as if you are the only one at fault here.
> 
> You are going to take heat for this, but you are going to have to confront her on these emails, screw her reaction, do it now because they are probably already at EA stage, and once the mutual sympathies well up, he will be in her pants. Confront her and tell her to have NC with this dude. Stay firm, because she will try to gaslight you some more. Your situation seems savable, but she has to be willing to do her part.


Yes. You must have her go total NC immedialtely. That probably means taking your daughter out of her dance class. Weigh this against the distruption that will be occurring if you do not do this. Expose this to the OMs wife. They are both way out of bounds here.

If you do not do this you are enabling the affair. Time is not on your side. This will end badly if you do nothing.

Instigation - Well on its way however it was started.
Isolation - They are chatting privately about their marriages and coming to agreement that they should not worry about the other spouses. This lays the ground work for the physical affair.
Escalation - It is already escalting


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## Halien

Rob774 said:


> Sorry to read all this about your relationship. It appears as if she's gaslighting you a bit here. And the fact that she tells your marriage to another dude... HUGE Red Flag there. Making it sound to him as if you are the only one at fault here.
> 
> You are going to take heat for this, but you are going to have to confront her on these emails, screw her reaction, do it now because they are probably already at EA stage, and once the mutual sympathies well up, he will be in her pants. Confront her and tell her to have NC with this dude. Stay firm, because she will try to gaslight you some more. Your situation seems savable, but she has to be willing to do her part.


You have the added fact that she still has no real financial options other than the marriage. Based on these emails alone, you should demand all passwords and complete transparency, plus marital counseling.


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## DailyGrind

Well...I came home from work early to talk to her. I already knew (from these emails) that she never went to work (too hung over.) It wasn't a great conversation. I didn't want to bring up the emails, because I don't want it to go underground. I can try to head off the proximity thing, by insisting that I pick up my daughter on Wednesday nights.

1) I laid out for her that I knew we were both miserable, and had been for far too long. I accepted some of the blame, but insisted she evaluate her feelings, and come to terms there is plenty to go around.

2) I told her I didn't want to go the divorce route, as it would just break my heart what that would do to the kids.

3) I said it was clear to me that I let the marriage down by not confronting our issues before..and letting them fester. I just didn't know how to deal with it. But I wanted to begin that now.

4) I felt we needed to work on our communication...we don't know how to deal with conflict, with each other. We are both guilty of lashing out.

5) Then I asked her what she wanted.

She told me she isn't sure ...that the marriage has never been great (ouch)...so she's not sure what to work toward. According to her, I always shoot her down, and dramatically controlled her. Everything HAD to be my way....and I'd use nasty tone with her. She got tired of it. I told her I felt she was rewriting history...and not fair. I pointed out the NUMBER of things I capitulated on (not controlling)...
A) she got a cat, early in our marriage...even though I was allergic;
B) she wanted a business...I made it happen;
C) we wanted a house..and I let her extend her "one year" not working...to two and a half;
D) minor things around the house.....I always relinguished detailed stuff....not worth the fights (color of walls, furniture placement, etc.)

She then said she thought we needed space to deal with our own issues, before we could deal with each other. I asked her if that meant separation? She said she didn't see how that was financially possible. She meant she didn't have her own space in the house. She wants to move into the spare room (which is now full of junk.) Now....bare in mind...i've been sleeping on the living room sofa for the past almost two years. HOW MUCH MORE SPACE CAN I GIVE HER?? I then called her out on that. It didn't seem that was a step forward, but rather backward. I asked her if we could re-try counseling. She didn't think that would work..but didn't outright say no. 

I then told her...I was fine with giving her more space...but only if we also worked on trying to have fun...AND....she had to stop acting like I didn't exist (start saying hi, goodnight, goodbye, etc.) She said she would. I told her this had to feel like it was for positive results...if she wanted out, she should just walk out the door. I wasn't going to keep supporting her, if she is just biding time. I told her I would start working on a budget for who pays what...and she should get her own checking account. She can start doing her own bills, for a change.

{sigh}


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## Entropy3000

Rather than go right for her actions are unacceptable you told her you would not divorce her and started taking blame. 

She of course demanded space. That is what cheaters do. Space is isolation so they can continue the affair. That is what she means by working on her issues. Leave her and the OM alone but do support her financially.

So lets be clear, she has cut this guy off with total NC and has provided you all of her passwords and accounts and there will be total transparency? Or did you just agree to be cuckolded? I am not sure. Are you? This sounds mean but really it comes down to this.

Be aware you cannot control her and c0ckblock by doing the proximity thing. They will meet up somewhere else if they want to. In fact she did not go to work at all. Was she home all day?

You have been sleeping on the sofa for two years? UFB. So essentially your wife is looking for your replacement or at least get her needs met while you support her. 

She must end her affair before you can work on the marriage. You need to move back into the bdedroom together not apart. You saying you would not divorce her enabled her affair.

It is possible this is not her first affair.


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## Halien

I think it was great to address the issues head on, but it seems like the way it was framed will likely push her closer to the OM. Yes, revealing might push it underground, but given what she has ALREADY declared to the OM, isn't it possible to demand full transparency, with divorce as the alternative? Seems that you possibly caught this early. If so, there is a line where the relationship with the OM takes a irretrievable life of its own.


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## Entropy3000

Halien said:


> I think it was great to address the issues head on, but it seems like the way it was framed will likely push her closer to the OM. Yes, revealing might push it underground, but given what she has ALREADY declared to the OM, isn't it possible to demand full transparency, with divorce as the alternative? Seems that you possibly caught this early. If so, there is a line where the relationship with the OM takes a irretrievable life of its own.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## DailyGrind

I do think I caught it early. The reason I've been sleeping on the couch was originally due to my snoring. But since there was no intimacy....nothing was really done about it. What bothered me was the complete willingness to start down the road to divorce. If we could afford it....I'm afraid it would be happening. 

To be honest...I can't completely say that it may not be the right thing for US...just not for the kids. She is right, to some degree....it never was a GREAT marriage. There just always seemed to be something getting between us....her store, finances, kids. I always felt it could be so much more. I just didn't know how to get us there.

I'm trying to figure out this "space" thing. How does having the spare bedroom....when i'm not sleeping in our room...make any difference? What does this accomplish? What could possibly be the motive of this?


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## Entropy3000

Like it or not when your spouse is being unfaithful you are really negotiating. You should never give up all your power when negotiating. So whether you want to actually divorce or not is not the issue. By taking it off the table you essentially said there will be no consequences for you being unfaithful no matter what you do. Bad idea. 

So more important than the bedroom situation for now is her going NC with this guy.


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## Halien

DailyGrind said:


> I'm trying to figure out this "space" thing. How does having the spare bedroom....when i'm not sleeping in our room...make any difference? What does this accomplish? What could possibly be the motive of this?


Maybe check out the threads in the Coping with Infidelity section, or post one of your own. The 'space' thing is a classic stimulus for seperating herself emotionally from you so that she can jump into the relationship with the other man, or at least explore it. 

I know its easy to believe that this can't be happening, and that she is just not this type of person, but think about the types of thoughts that went into being able to send the messages she sent to the other man.

If you send a private message to the moderators, you can request that they move this to the Coping with Infidelity, and you'll get input from dozens of people who do not check out this section.


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## sigma1299

My quick take on this. You need to throw a hand grenade into it. Blow the whole thing apart. Confront her about the OM, tell her to change dance classes and go NC with the OM or start packing and MEAN IT. I understand what you're trying to do but it sounds to me like the marriage is going to keep crumbling while you try to glue pieces back on. I think on the current course you're just going to eventually end up with a pile of broken pieces. IMO you're only chance is to stop this EA hard and fast and hope there's enough left to rebuild.

Don't reveal you're sources if you confront about the OM and be prepared for her to go crazy and lose it all over you. 

Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien

sigma1299 said:


> My quick take on this. You need to throw a hand grenade into it. Blow the whole thing apart. Confront her about the OM, tell her to change dance classes and go NC with the OM or start packing and MEAN IT. I understand what you're trying to do but it sounds to me like the marriage is going to keep crumbling while you try to glue pieces back on. I think on the current course you're just going to eventually end up with a pile of broken pieces. IMO you're only chance is to stop this EA hard and fast and hope there's enough left to rebuild.
> 
> Don't reveal you're sources if you confront about the OM and be prepared for her to go crazy and lose it all over you.
> 
> Good luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree:

Keep in mind that when the marriage crumbles, and we don't reverse it, most of the coping behaviors that men adopt are very beta. There is no passion. She sounds like she is trying to get this.

Calm, logical discussions do not trump passion. By being alpha agressive (with compassion), you are solidifying boundaries and possibly attracting her at the same time. Giving her a real alternative to the other man.


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## DailyGrind

Halien said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> Keep in mind that when the marriage crumbles, and we don't reverse it, most of the coping behaviors that men adopt are very beta. There is no passion. She sounds like she is trying to get this.
> 
> Calm, logical discussions do not trump passion. By being alpha agressive (with compassion), you are solidifying boundaries and possibly attracting her at the same time. Giving her a real alternative to the other man.


Thanks for all the advice.....though, I'm sure I'll need more..to get through this recovery. However, it DOES look like I found this EA...JUST in time. The OM emailed her this morning, asking how it went. She responded:

"_Hi. Actually ok. We talked about it & won't do anything drastic. We will go see someone. I know I said that wouldn't work but maybe it can help us understand the other better & at least keep the peace this time. I guess I do have to admit I have been pretty wicked lately. _"

Wow...I think I might have gotten through to her, without having to drop my trump card (the emails.) 

Clearly, I have to work on being a better man to her (manning up.) I have to deal with my anger issues...though, I KNOW I've gotten much better over the years. I didn't really use anger on her...other than the occasional sharp tone. But this is what she keeps pointing to as her kryptinite. My anger issues usually were more directed toward inanimate objects I was using, for projects. [Screen door replacement won't go in right....just curse, and throw it to the ground.] Clearly NOT the manned-up persona.

Then we both need to work on our communication. She is such an introvert...I NEVER know what is going on in her head. Even our talk yesterday...I had NO idea whether anything was striking a chord, or not. It is unsettling to not get anything (verbal, body language, anything) as feedback, when trying to address issues. 

We are both tired of the game, right now. I still have to maintain vigilance, over the communication with this other guy. I already told her I wanted to pick my daughter up from the dance classes. She was okay with it. I'll see how she responds to this OM, about it...though. There is still a threat, however. My wife is absolutely gorgeous. To be honest, with how we've been getting along for so long...I'm surprised nothing had happened sooner. I was too busy blaming her for our issues, to address my own issues. Don't get me wrong...she has her own, as well. But...all I can do is try to address mine; be a better person/father/husband. 

Now...anyone know what kind of therapist I should seek for us? I look up online...there must be 20 different kind of therapists. :scratchhead:

Thanks all!!


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## Shaggy

You have to demand she ends contact with the OM. That note and her reply are not appropriate.

She is giving play by play updates on your marriage. Not ok in the least.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Shaggy said:


> You have to demand she ends contact with the OM. That note and her reply are not appropriate.
> 
> She is giving play by play updates on your marriage. Not ok in the least.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

tell her the counseling can happen when she is fully 100% dedicated to the marriage (and NC has been verified with the OM). 

explain it to her in simple terms and what it means to you if it doesn't happen. no anger, just simple, calm terms.


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## Halien

DailyGrind said:


> Thanks for all the advice.....though, I'm sure I'll need more..to get through this recovery. However, it DOES look like I found this EA...JUST in time. The OM emailed her this morning, asking how it went. She responded:
> 
> "_ I know I said that wouldn't work but maybe it can help us understand the other better & at least keep the peace this time. I guess I do have to admit I have been pretty wicked lately. _"
> 
> Wow...I think I might have gotten through to her, without having to drop my trump card (the emails.)


I'd recommend seeing several marriage counselors. My wife and I finally agreed on the third one.

I don't want to be a naysayer who makes you take a deep breath every time you see my reply, but I'd like to warn you not to read her emails from only your perspective. Not sure if you are familiar with the conflict resolution tool of 'putting on another person's hat', but I think you might read something more ambiguous about her emails if you put on her EA hat. Think like her for a moment. She says "at least keep the peace" or "understand each other better", but she is saying these things in confidence to another man. I'd give it a 100% chance that he'll reply with something along the lines of "you are such a good woman for giving HIM the benefit." The point is, you are out of the script, and out of her dialogue. Not a central player in her dialogue with another man. And her goal is only trying to make it to some level that is below building a great marriage.

That said, I'll try to make this the last naysayer reply.


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## Deejo

Here's the thing ...

Do you want to be married to this woman? And if so, why?

Here is what I can tell you about kids and divorce. Your children's response will be a direct correlation of how you and your wife handle the dissolution, and partnering to still meet their needs.

Your wife is checked out. I'm baffled that people continue to use the phrase "I think we need space ..." at all. Because it is standard code for, "I'm interested in, or already involved with someone else."

That's not bitterness talking. I'm blown away by how utterly 'standard' a marriage imploding is. And I know of pitifully few instances where "I think we need space." means that your partner wants to work it out. 

Seriously ... decide what you want. What is a reasonable outcome here? Was the marriage EVER happy and healthy?

I will bottom line this for you, and again, I say based upon personal experience, and plenty of tragic observation.

You want to save your marriage?
Then you need to be prepared to end it.

Right now, the harder you work to try and save your marriage ... the more your wife is going to hate you for it.

So ... all the more reason it is very important that you decide if you have a partner that will work with you, and a marriage worth saving. Not all of them are. Be willing to acknowledge that.


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## Kobo

She had another man's phone number in her phone ready to use it to get directions. She gives you a BS excuse for having it. You don't need to tell her about the emails to begin to end it. Here is how I would approach:


Her: I'll just call him
Me: You have his number?
Her: Yes
Me: Why?
Her: In case I'm running late to dance class.
Me: That makes no sense at all. Why would a married man and woman feel the need to share each others number
Her: It's in case of an emergency
Me: (Turning the car to our house) I won't help you put our marriage in jeapordy. I suggest you look deep inside yourself to determine why you are actively seeking a relationship with a man outside our marriage. We will continue this discussion when we aren't intoxicated.



Even though you missed that opportunity you can still start fighting this affair without letting them know you've seen the emails. I love how he emails first thing "How'd it go". Yeah, let me ask your wife if you show as much concern for her as you do my wife. punk.


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## DailyGrind

Halien said:


> I'd recommend seeing several marriage counselors. My wife and I finally agreed on the third one.


And did the counselor work?



Halien said:


> I don't want to be a naysayer who makes you take a deep breath every time you see my reply, but I'd like to warn you not to read her emails from only your perspective. .........And her goal is only trying to make it to some level that is below building a great marriage.


I appreciate all comments...trust me. I'm not going to defend her. I think she ALMOST slipped. Fortunately (I hope) I caught it in time. I'll continually monitor the communication to see if it slips back into the flirty, school-girl banter. But I don't think I should expose the opening in their communication style. If it moves to text-messaging...I'd never be able to follow it. Believe me....if it continues...I will confront, and show the OMW. But, right now....nothing more could be definitively concluded from these emails...than he was trying to be "supportive." 

I did tell her yesterday that if she didn't try, I would NOT be supporting her. I'd draw up a budget for who pays for what, and we'd get separate checking accounts. I told her she'd have to do her OWN bills for a change. I also told her if she didn't want to work on it...she should just walk out the door, right now. So, I showed her both sides ....willingness to push the issue; and willingness to work for us. Now...I just think I should work on ME; try to find good counseling; and make sure this OM (shark) is kept at bay. I have no doubt he was smelling blood in the water. AND I can just taste his dissapointment that we didn't decide to do something "drastic" last night. I'm sure he is readjusting his tactics. I'll be watching.


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## Halien

DailyGrind said:


> And did the counselor work?
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate all comments...trust me. I'm not going to defend her. I think she ALMOST slipped. Fortunately (I hope) I caught it in time. I'll continually monitor the communication to see if it slips back into the flirty, school-girl banter. But I don't think I should expose the opening in their communication style. If it moves to text-messaging...I'd never be able to follow it. Believe me....if it continues...I will confront, and show the OMW. But, right now....nothing more could be definitively concluded from these emails...than he was trying to be "supportive."
> 
> I did tell her yesterday that if she didn't try, I would NOT be supporting her. I'd draw up a budget for who pays for what, and we'd get separate checking accounts. I told her she'd have to do her OWN bills for a change. I also told her if she didn't want to work on it...she should just walk out the door, right now. So, I showed her both sides ....willingness to push the issue; and willingness to work for us. Now...I just think I should work on ME; try to find good counseling; and make sure this OM (shark) is kept at bay. I have no doubt he was smelling blood in the water. AND I can just taste his dissapointment that we didn't decide to do something "drastic" last night. I'm sure he is readjusting his tactics. I'll be watching.


Since my wife struggles with depression, the third counselor really clicked for us. She specialized in these types of disorders, along with marriage counseling. She set up clear, tangible goals for our unique issues. All of the counselors asked if we wanted to make the marriage work, however, none of them really made sure that the answers were very specific. Don't be afraid to push for clear answers, as long as you are respectful of the joint needs of the marriage. A good counselor, in my opinion, is there to help, not dictate.

Please don't 'watch' forever. You sound like a person who has really learned from the mistakes of the past, so I'm hoping for success.


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## sigma1299

DG - sounds like you've got a pretty good grasp on it. The only thing I'd ad is to make you aware from my experience just how fast a relationship can go south into an EA. Very quick version of my story - I was contacted by an old high school GF I had not heard from or thought about in 22 years. We went from "Hi how's your life" to saying ILY in only 10 days. And. I was happily married when it happened. Just be aware that it can go from Ok to a complete train wreck with unimaginable speed.


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## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> And did the counselor work?
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate all comments...trust me. I'm not going to defend her. I think she ALMOST slipped. Fortunately (I hope) I caught it in time. I'll continually monitor the communication to see if it slips back into the flirty, school-girl banter. But I don't think I should expose the opening in their communication style. If it moves to text-messaging...I'd never be able to follow it. Believe me....if it continues...I will confront, and show the OMW. But, right now....nothing more could be definitively concluded from these emails...than he was trying to be "supportive."
> 
> I did tell her yesterday that if she didn't try, I would NOT be supporting her. I'd draw up a budget for who pays for what, and we'd get separate checking accounts. I told her she'd have to do her OWN bills for a change. I also told her if she didn't want to work on it...she should just walk out the door, right now. So, I showed her both sides ....willingness to push the issue; and willingness to work for us. Now...I just think I should work on ME; try to find good counseling; and make sure this OM (shark) is kept at bay. I have no doubt he was smelling blood in the water. AND I can just taste his dissapointment that we didn't decide to do something "drastic" last night. I'm sure he is readjusting his tactics. I'll be watching.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:for now. Its kind of like you have a mole to her thoughts. But be ready to blow it up at a moments notice. Find out how to contact OMW now. 

How are you going to act around OM when picking up daughter?

This could be an oppurtunity too.


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## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:for now. Its kind of like you have a mole to her thoughts. But be ready to blow it up at a moments notice. Find out how to contact OMW now.
> 
> How are you going to act around OM when picking up daughter?
> 
> This could be an oppurtunity too.


That's the funny thing. We went to their house, after the event Suday night.....before I knew what was going on. I know where he lives (less than five miles away....I actually pass his house every day to/from work.) The one thing I still have concerns about is that I told my wife I wanted to pick my daughter up. She said okay. But then, later...in an email to this guy ...she acknowledged his "great for the family" (because we didn't do anything drastic)...with an email saying "yeah....see ya Wednesday." I'm tryng to figure out how she is going to "see ya Wednesday"...when I'm the one picking up my daugher. I couldn't tell for sure, from the emails...but it seemed to me he was pushing to maybe join her in her early morning workouts at the athletic club (where the girls have the after-school care...and the dance class.) I'll see if my wife leaves for work early, in the morning (meaning going to the club.) If so....I'll have to figure out if he went as well. If she does go early....I just might have to clue the OMW in (unless tomorrow's emails indicate otherwise.) If not...it was probably a slip on her part...forgetting that I was picking daughter up. We'll see soon, I guess. I definitely sensed a cooling off in the tone of her emails today, after yesterday's talk. I just thank my lucky stars I didn't check emails just a couple weeks later. That might have been too late.

Sigma - I know what you mean. I actually got caught up in an almost EA, myself...a year ago. It was intoxicating...having someone paying me that kind of attention....after so many years of drought. It took all my will to pull back. I just couldn't live with myself if it had gone further. I couldn't imagine doing that to my kids....and to so disrespect my wife. Of course....four weeks mulling it was very bad...but then...I also knew I loved my wife deeply. Imagine what could have (not that I'm totally out of the woods yet) happened if my wife had gone further...unchecked (already expressing such dire feelings about our marriage.) geez.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Here's what you do print out the emails and go to her and show them to her and then ask her to go down with you to your kids so she can explain her boyfriend to them. Or offer her one alternative ....as long as she breaks communication with the OM permanently and takes you over personally to discuss things with him in person about leaving her the **** alone And she decides to work on the marriage then you'll keep it all hush for now.

See how she takes that.


You have the upper hand...she's the one cheating CALL HER OUT ON IT!
Make her make a decision now. Blow this thing WIDE open. You have no chance otherwise.
Don't let things fester.


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## Halien

DailyGrind said:


> I'm tryng to figure out how she is going to "see ya Wednesday"...when I'm the one picking up my daugher. I couldn't tell for sure, from the emails...but it seemed to me he was pushing to maybe join her in her early morning workouts at the athletic club (where the girls have the after-school care...and the dance class.)


I'm sorry, DailyGrind, but you really need to assume that you may have caught this too late. This guy is pursuing your wife, and I don't think you can see the seriousness objectively. Perhaps you are focusing more on putting the clues together than putting together a picture of what is missing from these emails also, if you think that it has nipped it before something began. 

Can I offer another way to look at this? 

Women in relationships usually use qualifying statements when communicating with men that they are not in a relationship with. Almost all use different, positive qualifying statements with people that they are close to, also. Look at some of the communication studies that began in the 70s if you want to understand more, like Robin Lakoff.

Based on her style, if many women comment about 'seeing you wednesday' to a man who is not her husband, and it is not a business meeting, you can almost guarantee seeing a quilifying statement in there, because too many of them would feel like it is a woman looking forward to a date. So, they'll slip up and put in a "Wow, DailyGrind is sure happy about me working out," or at least some of the emails will put in an innocent sounding statement that distances them from the man, or qualifies the relationship. Or best case, she would've remembered that you were picking up the child, and there is no force of nature that could keep her from following up with a correction that you'll be there instead.

The qualifying statements that I see are all engaging, and insinuating that the OM is a trusted friend. See the original post of "Sorry to unload on you." But the biggest of all is that she communicated to him that she had cut off the emotional ties to you, and said this to a man that she is building a relationship with. And she told him that it was once a decision to stay in a cold marriage for the sake of the kids, but she has now decided that this is hurtful to the kids.

Maybe send her an email, reminding her of a fond memory of the two of you together. Ask her if she remembers what she did. Ask her if she wants that again. Compare the language, and you'll likely see a dramatic difference. You might see that you are on the outside, and the OM is on the inside.

To people who are not feeling the same pain you are, we can look at a situation and see it completely different. Doesn't mean that I know that I am right, but it means that the best course of action might be to treat it as a potential worst case scenario.

BTW - its probably not a surprise that I write fiction, and a tad obsessed on the subject of character development??


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## DailyGrind

Halien - You have definitely given me something to think about here. Although, I still think I caught this before it got to EA stage. It is entirely possible she looks on this as someone she can unload on (she doesn't have many close friends....and I think she would more easily unload on someone NOT as close to us.) 

OTOH...it DEFINITELY bothered me the tone of the emails. They were light and flirty, which she use to do with me. The tone should be reserved for me...not some other man. But...that's the problem. I can't just blast this thing on tone alone. On the face of it....she has done nothing more than vent to someone. You and I, after reading so many of these stories in here, know what that REALLY means. But plausible denial simply makes me the bad, snooping, untrusting, horrible husband. Certainly, showing the OMW the emails MIGHT raise an eyebrow. But in the end...all he has done (so far) is "lend an ear to someone he knows from the club." I think if I fire off a salvo too soon....I could just as easily drive her completely away from me. 

I see her email, after we talked, as almost a sigh of relief. The fact that she even talked potentially positively about seeing a counselor seems to be a huge step for us. I think she has definitely been re-writing history, to substantiate that she HAS been wicked to me for some time. Acknowledging THAT might mean she is backing off her feelings that I am solely to blame.

That being said.....your words do worry me to some degree. As I've indicated before...she is a very introverted person. She RARELY ever shares feelings with anyone (even family or friends.) The fact she opened up, as much as she did, to this guy...is definitely worrisome. I am hoping to interject myself into wherever their paths may cross; and monitor their communications for signs of A) any kind of "caring" words; or B) any indication they are crossing paths in other areas. 

Outside of that, at this point, I'm trying to figure out this "manning up" thing. Trying to be a better me. That means...being more at home for the kids, for the family...instead of working late all the time (which I acknowledge was more procrastination, cause I simply couldn't face the cold shoulder at home.) Trying to improve myself...both physically and mentally. 

I've decided the only "space" I'm willing to give her, is her own office in the house. I'll make that happen. I can understand the need....I have my own mancave...so...it's only fair. But, I will NOT allow her have her own bedroom.

What else can I do?


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## DailyGrind

By the way...she did not go to the club this morning. I think the reference to seeing him Wednesday stems from, she was assuming that I'm was only picking my daughter up from the dance class. She will be going there to pick up my older daughter from the afterschool care, and then walking my younger daughter up to the dance class (upstairs) until I got there. I WAS planning on getting there about the same time as her...she could take the older daughter home, and I'd take younger up to dance. However, I was forgetting that my wife needs to take her into the changing room, to get her tights on. So...it is possible we will BOTH be walking her up...in which case the shark will see us both. It will be interesting to see what the emails are, after that.


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## Acorn

DailyGrind said:


> It will be interesting to see what the emails are, after that.


My take - on some very basic level, you knew something was wrong. You snooped. You found things that are making you want to snoop more. You are passively observing the players in your marriage, and you are not one of them. This is disturbing, and one of the furthest things from manning up I can think of.

Even if you aren't in a place where you can accept some of the ideas people are trying to put in your head, this basic fact should be sending off major warning bells. After all, if you were one of the players in your marriage, wouldn't she be emailing you and not him? Especially if she is as introverted as you say?

Every day you are watching and observing is another day she has to envision the bond between her and the OM.


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## Entropy3000

DailyGrind said:


> That's the funny thing. We went to their house, after the event Suday night.....before I knew what was going on. I know where he lives (less than five miles away....I actually pass his house every day to/from work.) The one thing I still have concerns about is that I told my wife I wanted to pick my daughter up. She said okay. But then, later...in an email to this guy ...she acknowledged his "great for the family" (because we didn't do anything drastic)...with an email saying "yeah....see ya Wednesday." I'm tryng to figure out how she is going to "see ya Wednesday"...when I'm the one picking up my daugher. I couldn't tell for sure, from the emails...but it seemed to me he was pushing to maybe join her in her early morning workouts at the athletic club (where the girls have the after-school care...and the dance class.) I'll see if my wife leaves for work early, in the morning (meaning going to the club.) If so....I'll have to figure out if he went as well. If she does go early....I just might have to clue the OMW in (unless tomorrow's emails indicate otherwise.) If not...it was probably a slip on her part...forgetting that I was picking daughter up. We'll see soon, I guess. I definitely sensed a cooling off in the tone of her emails today, after yesterday's talk. I just thank my lucky stars I didn't check emails just a couple weeks later. That might have been too late.
> 
> Sigma - I know what you mean. I actually got caught up in an almost EA, myself...a year ago. It was intoxicating...having someone paying me that kind of attention....after so many years of drought. It took (after four weeks of very bad texting, flirting, etc.) all my will to pull back. I just couldn't live with myself if it had gone further. I couldn't imagine doing that to my kids....and to so disrespect my wife. Of course....four weeks was very bad...but then...I also knew I loved my wife deeply. Imagine what could have (not that I'm totally out of the woods yet) happened if my wife had gone further...unchecked (already expressing such dire feelings about our marriage.) geez.


You may have stumbled on something here. The see ya Wednesday may have nothing to do with picking up kids. They may have a regular hookup on certain days.

I would expose the affair immediatly. They are communicating. This is not NC. They are talking about the marriage and seeing each other. You need to be stronger.

This now looks more like a PA. Or soon to be PA ... like today.


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## DailyGrind

Deejo said:


> Here's the thing ...
> 
> Do you want to be married to this woman? And if so, why?


My wife and I had a wonderful relationship, in the beginning. Early on, she wanted to run her own store/business. That cause SOOO many problems, for our marriage (time spent, financial) at a critical time before kids. Then kids came, new house, new job for me/her....more/continued financial.........all seeming to have been just a long string of getting in the way of us connecting. We definitely drifted far apart....and I fear we never really had the chance for that honeymoon stage of our marriage. I am really expecting some serious financial advances over the next 6 months...which would finally allow us to DO things. We are planning Disney for the kids, things for the house....all things. I'm hoping we can finally be able to afford dates/sitters for us to spend the quality time we've been lacking over the past 8 years. So...to answer your question....I want to be married to her...if she decides to re-engage into the marriage. I don't want to be married to the woman she's been, the last two years.



Deejo said:


> Your wife is checked out. I'm baffled that people continue to use the phrase "I think we need space ..." at all. Because it is standard code for, "I'm interested in, or already involved with someone else."


I knew she checked out two years ago. But we couldn't afford to separate, and she never really responded to any of my attempts to break through to her. I let it go into limbo. My fault.



Deejo said:


> That's not bitterness talking. I'm blown away by how utterly 'standard' a marriage imploding is. And I know of pitifully few instances where "I think we need space." means that your partner wants to work it out.


I think the space thing is more about our house being a disaster. I work 50-60 hrs/week...she works....and the kids take over. She goes to visit other people's homes...and ...magically....they are spotless. Of course, the wife doesn't work...or they planned the visit...so the wife made sure to clean up. But, she then compares to our messy house. I can help here. I have various plumbing projects, and other things she wants done. I have to do that....give her pride back in our home.



Deejo said:


> Seriously ... decide what you want. What is a reasonable outcome here? Was the marriage EVER happy and healthy?


Happy/Healthy? Early on...but not for a long time.
Reasonable outcome:
A) We both re-engage, and try to advance the marriage. We are on the cusp of coming out of a lot of financial BS (from that stupid business.) This will take a LOT of stress off us, and allow us to do more together.
B) Baring her willingness to do this... divorce.

I don't see any other outcome. Status quo is no longer an option.



Deejo said:


> You want to save your marriage?
> Then you need to be prepared to end it.
> 
> Right now, the harder you work to try and save your marriage ... the more your wife is going to hate you for it.
> 
> So ... all the more reason it is very important that you decide if you have a partner that will work with you, and a marriage worth saving. Not all of them are. Be willing to acknowledge that.


I guess that is what we need a couselor for.....and advice from here.  I want to take positive steps to being a better man for her, and the kids. I want to show I am willing to work on the marriage....but don't want it to be pushing her away, either. I have to step up...but not on.

Thanks for the advice.


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## Dadof3

Entropy3000 said:


> You may have stumbled on something here. The see ya Wednesday may have nothing to do with picking up kids. They may have a regular hookup on certain days.
> 
> I would expose the affair immediatly. They are communicating. This is not NC. They are talking about the marriage and seeing each other. You need to be stronger.
> 
> This now looks more like a PA. Or soon to be PA ... like today.


I hate to have to agree, but yea, I agree. Time to spill into the open - DONT REVEAL YOUR SOURCE, just state your boundaries and the consequences (what you will do if the boundaries are crossed).

There has to be VERIFIABLE NC, FULL TRANSPARENCY, and willingness to FIGHT for the marriage before you will continue on working the marriage.


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## Entropy3000

DailyGrind said:


> Halien - You have definitely given me something to think about here. Although, I still think I caught this before it got to EA stage. It is entirely possible she looks on this as someone she can unload on (she doesn't have many close friends....and I think she would more easily unload on someone NOT as close to us.)
> 
> OTOH...it DEFINITELY bothered me the tone of the emails. They were light and flirty, which she use to do with me. The tone should be reserved for me...not some other man. But...that's the problem. I can't just blast this thing on tone alone. On the face of it....she has done nothing more than vent to someone. You and I, after reading so many of these stories in here, know what that REALLY means. But plausible denial simply makes me the bad, snooping, untrusting, horrible husband. Certainly, showing the OMW the emails MIGHT raise an eyebrow. But in the end...all he has done (so far) is "lend an ear to someone he knows from the club." I think if I fire off a salvo too soon....I could just as easily drive her completely away from me.
> 
> I see her email, after we talked, as almost a sigh of relief. The fact that she even talked potentially positively about seeing a counselor seems to be a huge step for us. I think she has definitely been re-writing history, to substantiate that she HAS been wicked to me for some time. Acknowledging THAT might mean she is backing off her feelings that I am solely to blame.
> 
> That being said.....your words do worry me to some degree. As I've indicated before...she is a very introverted person. She RARELY ever shares feelings with anyone (even family or friends.) The fact she opened up, as much as she did, to this guy...is definitely worrisome. I am hoping to interject myself into wherever their paths may cross; and monitor their communications for signs of A) any kind of "caring" words; or B) any indication they are crossing paths in other areas.
> 
> Outside of that, at this point, I'm trying to figure out this "manning up" thing. Trying to be a better me. That means...being more at home for the kids, for the family...instead of working late all the time (which I acknowledge was more procrastination, cause I simply couldn't face the cold shoulder at home.) Trying to improve myself...both physically and mentally.
> 
> I've decided the only "space" I'm willing to give her, is her own office in the house. I'll make that happen. I can understand the need....I have my own mancave...so...it's only fair. But, I will NOT allow her have her own bedroom.
> 
> What else can I do?


She needs to go NC with this guy. The longer she keeps in touch with him and the longer you do nothing the deeper the affair gets.

This is a boundary issue. She has a close male freind who she is discussing the marriage with. She wants her space to be with him. You have all you need. She can find a female friend to talk to. She is being unfaithful now.


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## Entropy3000

DailyGrind said:


> By the way...she did not go to the club this morning. I think the reference to seeing him Wednesday stems from, she was assuming that I'm was only picking my daughter up from the dance class. She will be going there to pick up my older daughter from the afterschool care, and then walking my younger daughter up to the dance class (upstairs) until I got there. I WAS planning on getting there about the same time as her...she could take the older daughter home, and I'd take younger up to dance. However, I was forgetting that my wife needs to take her into the changing room, to get her tights on. So...it is possible we will BOTH be walking her up...in which case the shark will see us both. It will be interesting to see what the emails are, after that.


Could they be meeting at another time. Lunch?

And again, your wife having a close personal friend in aguy who she met at your daughters dance class is really pretty absurd. You may already be too late to stop it.


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## DailyGrind

Entropy3000 said:


> Could they be meeting at another time. Lunch?
> 
> And again, your wife having a close personal friend in aguy who she met at your daughters dance class is really pretty absurd. You may already be too late to stop it.


They really couldn't be meeting any other time. She works in the city, like me. She leaves early in the morning, so she can leave work in time to pick the kids up. I leave later, so I can drop them off at school. She has the kids every afternoon. And she really never does anything over the weekend, without us (except shopping.) Now...there are times I've wondered if she wasn't taking a tad too long...but hard to tell. And...I would think references to some other meetings would show up in the emails.

I'll see what happens after tonight. I'm sure he's expecting to "enjoy the company" again tonight, while watching the dance class. If there is true EA seeds going on...I would imagine there would be some emails tonight, since they wouldn't have gotten their fix. I think the next couple days will be telling.


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## Halien

Hope I don't come across as harsh in the past posts.

I should've mentioned that the reason for my notice of the lack of qualifiers in her emails to the other guy was because you said that she was a bit shy, and introverted. Often, reading emails of introverts is like watching a tennis match. Lots of disclaimers whenever feelings are mentioned, reclaiming their personal space.

Good luck, DailyGrind!


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## DailyGrind

Halien said:


> Hope I don't come across as harsh in the past posts.
> 
> I should've mentioned that the reason for my notice of the lack of qualifiers in her emails to the other guy was because you said that she was a bit shy, and introverted. Often, reading emails of introverts is like watching a tennis match. Lots of disclaimers whenever feelings are mentioned, reclaiming their personal space.
> 
> Good luck, DailyGrind!


Not harsh....cold reality. I appreciate the input. Like I said...the next couple days might be telling. I'm hoping to line up a therapist within the next couple weeks. We'll see if that starts anything.


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## Chaparral

You say you were at the other mans house after another party or something. In rerospect can you remember anything odd about that evening?


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## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> You say you were at the other mans house after another party or something. In rerospect can you remember anything odd about that evening?


No...nothing. We were sort of dealing with a running, under-breath argument. She was never really away from me.


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## Entropy3000

I think the issue was that she had the other man's phone number handy on her phone. But it does not sound like there were any knowing glances or stolen moments in the kitchen.


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## DailyGrind

Well...update.....I apparently FOUND it early....but didn't find it "just in time." Original dialogue between them today:



Wife and Shark said:


> From: Wife
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 03:41 PM
> To: Shark
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> free time is a thing of the past right? unfortunately my free time is usually in the morning, other times that I have to myself are actually with kids in evenings. How about you?
> ------Original Message------
> FromShark
> To: Wife
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> Sent: Nov 3, 2011 4:01 PM
> 
> So when do you have free time. Ha ha
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:Wife
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 01:40 PM
> To: Shark
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> 
> I'm ok. Me too. I don't think it would make things worse. Things have deteriorated over the years so this isn't new.
> ------Original Message------
> From: Shark
> To: Wife
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> Sent: Nov 3, 2011 9:34 AM
> 
> I like 'em. They are great.
> 
> Hope you are doing better. Want to do more for/with you but do not want to make situation worse
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wife
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 08:05 AM
> To: Shark
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> 
> Yes, my kids are little animals haha


They go on about how mornings are the only free time...they both have time they could take.....clearly preparing to plan a get together. WTF???? How did it get to THIS so fast?

So....I got home and had a last ditch heart to heart to let her know I love her greatly. "We are married, have children, committments, promises.....I don't want to see us lose all that." She told me she thought I thought she was irritating, in general. That many times over our marriage, she didn't like how I would react to her...sometimes I was downright mean. I told her I felt I probably was more often than not, reacting to our circumstances (her business sucking $60k from my salary, over 4 years....My working full-time....and then all the effort I put into her business...kids...her not working for 2.5 years after we bought the house).....this was SOOOO stressful over the years. Yeah...I blew up some times. I shouldn't have taken it out ON her....but...all couple blow up at each other, now and then. I told her she seemed to be dwelling on only the negative.

I'm just trying to give her the chance to think differently before she makes a mistake. I haven't said anything that I know yet. I figure...I have two choices:

A) wait until they make definite plans...then grenade the whole thing....threaten to expose to OMW...quite possibly losing everything;
B) wait until they make plans....and get evidence....THEN grenade the whole thing....maybe THEN...though...I'm not naive enough to believe I'd get the kids, here in MD, regardless. But...both marriages ruined.


To be honest...I simply don't know how we could afford either thing about to happen. I just PRAY to God, she turns away from this thing. He isn't even all that good looking a guy. Bald, bit heavyset... 

I can't believe I'm at this point. I don't want this....I'd do anything to have a full loving marriage. Barely keeping it together, right now.


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## sigma1299

Or option three - grenade the whole thing right now. This ain't going to get better by waiting. 

I told you it happens fast and it isn't going to stop until you do grenade it. How long are you going to go for the ride before you hit the brakes? I know it sucks - badly. But it won't start to get better until you do something.


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## DailyGrind

What do I do then? Can't afford to move out....she sure as hell won't move out (no where to go.) I can threaten to go to the OMW (and probably should anyway)....but then what? Grenade goes off.....shrapnel everywhere.....dust settles......then what?


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## Entropy3000

sigma1299 said:


> Or option three - grenade the whole thing right now. This ain't going to get better by waiting.
> 
> I told you it happens fast and it isn't going to stop until you do grenade it. How long are you going to go for the ride before you hit the brakes? I know it sucks - badly. But it won't start to get better until you do something.


This.

Be aware that time is not on your side. Escalation occurs geometrically not linearly. It can go to her riding cowboy in nothing flat. Not trying to be crude. This is how it is.

Realize that this is chemical. What has been going on is all foreplay. Instigation, Isolation, Escalation.

So if they have not gone PA yet, they just may in the morning. Telling her you love her is going to have zero impact t seems. She is ready to go with him at the first opportunity. He will make time when she has time. A GPS would be handy. 

I would blow this thing up right now. Not an hour from now. I would expose to the OMW tonight. I would tell her she must go NC with this guy now. You do not need any more inforation than you have right now. This was not innocent banter. They are planning to have sex in the morning.


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## Entropy3000

DailyGrind said:


> What do I do then? Can't afford to move out....she sure as hell won't move out (no where to go.) I can threaten to go to the OMW (and probably should anyway)....but then what? Grenade goes off.....shrapnel everywhere.....dust settles......then what?


Move out!? What? DO NOT MOVE OUT. If anyone leaves she should leave. Why do guys always jump to flight when they have a chance to fight. Run this poacher off before he bangs your wife. I confess for me a PA is a deal breaker and others are different. You have a chance to stop this before they consummate. You can always decide to divorce later. Right now, blow this up and get into the fight. Do not beg. Take charge.

This guy is an absolute predator. He intended to steal your wife, for a while.

I cannot think of any advantage to waiting for her to physically bond with this low life.


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## Halien

DailyGrind said:


> What do I do then? Can't afford to move out....she sure as hell won't move out (no where to go.) I can threaten to go to the OMW (and probably should anyway)....but then what? Grenade goes off.....shrapnel everywhere.....dust settles......then what?


Who said anything about moving out? You are clearly playing with fire if you don't stop it. Just expose and never, ever leave the house. Call the OM and his wife. Don't allow her to go to the same places if she wants to stay married. If her communications are at work, tell her that you will notify her manager if it doesn't stop, since she's carrying on a relationship at work. If its phone communications, get text messaging shut down. She'll agree if she wants to stay married.


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## DailyGrind

Thanks guys! I did the confront! I walked up to her and asked her if she had anything to tell me. "No." Are you sure??!! "No." I held up her phone, which she had left next to the bed. Now.....she had already deleated all the emails....so she was definitely confused. But...as soon as I held up the phone, I saw her deflate. I told her right there....come downstairs and talk to me about this right now...or I immediately call the OMW!

She kept insisting she would never have done anything...she's not that type. I insisted she go NC immediately (and let me see the email)...or I take this to the OMW. She tried deflecting by wondering how I found out, "did you go through my phone", etc. I kept telling her she lost the high road here....I'll deal with her anger on that ANOTHER day. She couldn't believe this guy was looking for sex from her.. ???!!!! WTF??!! I told her she couldn't be that naive. He was talking about how much vacation he had...and he'd reserve one week for her! If she named the time/place...he'd be there first!!

In the end...I made her do the NC email. She finally did wind up opening up about some of the reasons for her turning against me. Most were like WTF??? She's putting things on me that she said I did/said, in the past. I'm like...how can I defend myself...I don't even remember the event. BUT....that completely doesn't sound like me. Like she said she once told me that she needed a break from the kids for a bit...and I told her 'you don't need a break.' HUH?? BS...I would NEVER have said that. She said...oh please...if I'd asked you to take the kids for the day, last week...you wouldn't have. ??!! I responded, 'you must REALLY hate me a lot to think such ridiculous crap as that.....do you even hear yourself?'

Anyway...she says she is going to try, with a counselor. She COULD also be trying to figure out how to cover her tracks better......I just don't know. This is so exhausting. Any advice how I proceed now. She genuinely did open up about why she went dark, in the first place. Maybe we can use this to begin healing. But, if she goes underground...it'll be tough. She opened up a bit, because she was shamed. That could shut down. Until we get to a counselor...how do I keep the momentum, and keep the door open (assuming it is genuine)?

I need her to know I love her...why I did this in the first place. But...I don't want to appear weak, or overwhelm her now. ??


----------



## Halien

DailyGrind said:


> Thanks guys! I did the confront! I walked up to her and asked her if she had anything to tell me. "No." Are you sure??!! "No." I held up her phone, which she had left next to the bed. Now.....she had already deleated all the emails....so she was definitely confused. But...as soon as I held up the phone, I saw her deflate. I told her right there....come downstairs and talk to me about this right now...or I immediately call the OMW!
> 
> She kept insisting she would never have done anything...she's not that type. I insisted she go NC immediately (and let me see the email)...or I take this to the OMW. She tried deflecting by wondering how I found out, "did you go through my phone", etc. I kept telling her she lost the high road here....I'll deal with her anger on that ANOTHER day. She couldn't believe this guy was looking for sex from her.. ???!!!! WTF??!! I told her she couldn't be that naive. He was talking about how much vacation he had...and he'd reserve one week for her! If she named the time/place...he'd be there first!!
> 
> In the end...I made her do the NC email. She finally did wind up opening up about some of the reasons for her turning against me. Most were like WTF??? She's putting things on me that she said I did/said, in the past. I'm like...how can I defend myself...I don't even remember the event. BUT....that completely doesn't sound like me. Like she said she once told me that she needed a break from the kids for a bit...and I told her 'you don't need a break.' HUH?? BS...I would NEVER have said that. She said...oh please...if I'd asked you to take the kids for the day, last week...you wouldn't have. ??!! I responded, 'you must REALLY hate me a lot to think such ridiculous crap as that.....do you even hear yourself?'
> 
> Anyway...she says she is going to try, with a counselor. She COULD also be trying to figure out how to cover her tracks better......I just don't know. This is so exhausting. Any advice how I proceed now. She genuinely did open up about why she went dark, in the first place. Maybe we can use this to begin healing. But, if she goes underground...it'll be tough. She opened up a bit, because she was shamed. That could shut down. Until we get to a counselor...how do I keep the momentum, and keep the door open (assuming it is genuine)?
> 
> I need her to know I love her...why I did this in the first place. But...I don't want to appear weak, or overwhelm her now. ??


DailyGrind, PM the mods (Deejo or Amp or others) and ask them to move this to Coping with Infidelity - you'll get lots more responses from people who have been through this.

I wish the best for you in this!! Definately don't let up, but confidently tell her of your love for her, and your belief that the two of you can fix this if she decides to do the right thing. Do not beg or plead, because the other guy is being the Alpha here.


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## Shaggy

Be ready to expose to the omw the first time she breaks NC. You need Vars in her car ASAP, and in the home. She will be in touch with him.likle when he initiates it. Don't warn him or her, just do it.

This sounds like it was going PA this week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

And why haven't you blown this up to OM's wife? He's a scum bag, if it were me I would be calling on them both in person. The last thing he ever thought of would be to approach my wife again.


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## Chaparral

Shaggy said:


> Be ready to expose to the omw the first time she breaks NC. You need Vars in her car ASAP, and in the home. She will be in touch with him.likle when he initiates it. Don't warn him or her, just do it.
> 
> This sounds like it was going PA this week.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think he's done near enough to stop that. Anyone else get that feeling.


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## PBear

And what are you doing to ensure transparency? That you know who she's communicating with, and what she's saying?

It really doesn't sound like your wife is remorseful for what she's done. You are probably in for a rough ride, unfortunately.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

I will PM to move this to coping. I agree, I'm not sure I've done enough. She cried when confronted. But, I'm afraid...once the shock of being found out occurs....she will simply call him, or email him from her work email...or something. Not sure what I should be doing now. I told her that she was not to take our daughter to dance class. When I take my daught next week....I plan on telling this shark I'm sooo close to disclosing to his wife...and he'd better stay away. But...you are right. She never really showed remorse for what was transpiring. What should I be insisting on? I've already had my hopes dashed three times, since this thing started. I don't want to make it four.


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## PBear

Before you threaten him with anything, do your reading in the CWI forum. Threatening him with disclosure simply allows him to start laying the framework for some whacko calling his wife.

C


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## DailyGrind

PBear said:


> And what are you doing to ensure transparency? That you know who she's communicating with, and what she's saying?
> 
> It really doesn't sound like your wife is remorseful for what she's done. You are probably in for a rough ride, unfortunately.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


how does one ensure tranparency?


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## Dadof3

This is where her whereabouts and actions get scrutinized. These are verifiable in some fashion. Like - where she is at all times, her communication with OM, etc.


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## Saffron

You should send a few copies of the OM emails to his wife. You don't need to send your wife's email responses, but letting the OMW see what her husband said to another woman should be enough.

My guess is that your wife will try to contact the OM in some way to "get closure". It seems all cheaters tend to want "closure". It's really just an excuse to make themselves feel better by either a) Making sure the AP is not mad at them for getting busted or b) To see if the AP is still "into" them and get an ego stroke. It's addictive.

I also recommend getting the VAR. Plus, if you really want to increase the odds of ending the affair, informing the OMW is a must. The OM will most likely throw your wife under the bus to save his own marriage. Then his own marital problems should keep him distracted from trying to keep the affair going with your wife. Nothing wakes a DS up faster than being trashed by their AP confidant.


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## DailyGrind

What truly amazes me is that we discussed things for about an hour. THEN...she had to go to bed. She gets up pretty early in the morning...so...I can somewhat understand. But...if it were me ....I wouldn't be able to sleep (like I'm not right now.) There was definitely some finger pointing on her part....and a lot of "Oh...it wouldn't REALLY have happened." But...no...sorry. 

If he tries contacting her, by responding to her NC email. I'll know. If she is on to me, and gets to him first...it will be going underground. I plan on taking my daughter to dance class, next Wednesday. When he sees me....I think I might be able to determine from his reaction, if they've communicated. As far as he knows (right now)...he got an email that says "_I need to work on my marriage now and therefore cannot talk to you anymore._" He can assume I know...I suppose. But unless she communicates with him....he probably wouldn't be warry of me, when I bring my daughter. If he is....I think I'll know if she talked to him. That would blow the deal, for me.


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## Saffron

Too early in the process now, but keep in mind that at some point you might end up confessing your own EA to your wife. So be firm and hold strong to boundaries for your wife, but keep in mind that if she ever finds out about your EA, she will remember if you took a holier than thou approach in any way during this time. Not saying you shouldn't be Alpha, by all means you need to be strong to make sure the OM is out of the picture, but keep the future in mind. If you want a truly intimate and honest relationship with your wife someday, your own close call might come out during therapy.

I'm not saying you should confess your EA, but you never know what the future holds. Your wife might find something incriminating someday or your EA AP might contact you. Just saying it's going to be tricky if you go through recovery, rebuild a better marriage, then someday your wife finds out you had an EA. It could blow everything out of the water again. Tread carefully. My H confessed to an affair from 10 years ago. If that OW was still married to her H, I could've outed her a decade later. 

Anyway, focus on the current situation. I only wanted to address the fact that you've had an EA that your wife does not know about, so it might be an issue that comes up later.


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## Saffron

DailyGrind said:


> What truly amazes me is that we discussed things for about an hour. THEN...she had to go to bed. She gets up pretty early in the morning...so...I can somewhat understand. But...if it were me ....I wouldn't be able to sleep (like I'm not right now.) There was definitely some finger pointing on her part....and a lot of "Oh...it wouldn't REALLY have happened." But...no...sorry.
> 
> If he tries contacting her, by responding to her NC email. I'll know. If she is on to me, and gets to him first...it will be going underground. I plan on taking my daughter to dance class, next Wednesday. When he sees me....I think I might be able to determine from his reaction, if they've communicated. As far as he knows (right now)...he got an email that says "_I need to work on my marriage now and therefore cannot talk to you anymore._" He can assume I know...I suppose. But unless she communicates with him....he probably wouldn't be warry of me, when I bring my daughter. If he is....I think I'll know if she talked to him. That would blow the deal, for me.


Not good if she's finger pointing and saying it wouldn't have happened. She doesn't sound remorseful and being able to go to bed shows a lack of concern in my opinion. Start hunting for a MC and stay vigilant. I agree that you might be able to gauge if they've been in contact by how the OM reacts to you. However, he could be a very good liar and act as if nothing is wrong. So I wouldn't let it be your only source, go for the VAR too if possible.


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## morituri

If you didn't have any fear how would you react?


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## Lovelyladybug

Sorry to hear this. Seems like you do love your wife and you want the marriage to work out, but she isn't cooperating. I've been there once upon a time, but it was my husband who just gave up too easily. I sought the help of a marriage coach. See if it will work for you.


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## Halien

DailyGrind,

Most of us have an incredible ability to walk into enticing situations with a 'one foot in' type of mentality. What I mean is that we take a step forward, but tell our conscience that it is only testing the waters, or we can back out at any time. Once caught, your wife might have still thought of herself as mostly innocent. Even if not, do not forget that your marriage really was hurting for a long time. It can take some time to reel her in and see true remorse if she doesn't keep taking steps towards the other man. But I agree with others, she was almost taking the plunge here.

Telling the OMW in a polite and respectful way makes her an ally here. In the end, think about it, and you would probably want to know if you were in her shoes. You can tell her that you observed interchanges that were becoming inappropriate, and leave your number, without added your thoughts of what was going on, and let her ask for more. At least, thats my opinion, and the approach I took when I learned that a couple of close friends were in affairs.

I really wish you the best of luck. Feel free to PM me if you need to vent anytime. Honestly, the people in this forum typically give very practical and useful advice in situations like yours.


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## sigma1299

Saffron said:


> You should send a few copies of the OM emails to his wife. You don't need to send your wife's email responses, but letting the OMW see what her husband said to another woman should be enough.
> 
> My guess is that your wife will try to contact the OM in some way to "get closure". It seems all cheaters tend to want "closure". It's really just an excuse to make themselves feel better by either a) Making sure the AP is not mad at them for getting busted or b) To see if the AP is still "into" them and get an ego stroke. It's addictive.
> 
> I also recommend getting the VAR. Plus, if you really want to increase the odds of ending the affair, informing the OMW is a must. The OM will most likely throw your wife under the bus to save his own marriage. Then his own marital problems should keep him distracted from trying to keep the affair going with your wife. Nothing wakes a DS up faster than being trashed by their AP confidant.


This about wanting closure is sooooooo right. Just remember that unfortunately you're just getting started with this. You are far from done with it I'm afraid. Affairs are very hard to quit/kill. Even if she did have a sudden change of heart and genuinely wants to quit the affair (which is unlikely) she will still struggle with it. Giving up someone you have developed an emotional connection with is hard, even if you know that connection was wrong. Do not let your guard down, and keep the confrontation going with all aspects of The OM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Grind,

The OM appears to be actively fishing for more from your wife. He will no just walk away. He might go dark for a few days, but he will reach out with something like " hey, did things settle down.? Are you ok?" as a way to start talking again.

Get a var snd get it placed in the home and in the car so when she does pickup the phone with him you can hear what she says.

It's not good at all that they both have free time in the morning, it gives him a chance to pursue her. 

One ground rule you need to set for her is that if he tries to contact her I'm any way, she does not respond and she infroms you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

Saffron said:


> Too early in the process now, but keep in mind that at some point you might end up confessing your own EA to your wife. So be firm and hold strong to boundaries for your wife, but keep in mind that if she ever finds out about your EA, she will remember if you took a holier than thou approach in any way during this time. Not saying you shouldn't be Alpha, by all means you need to be strong to make sure the OM is out of the picture, but keep the future in mind. If you want a truly intimate and honest relationship with your wife someday, your own close call might come out during therapy.
> 
> I'm not saying you should confess your EA, but you never know what the future holds. Your wife might find something incriminating someday or your EA AP might contact you. Just saying it's going to be tricky if you go through recovery, rebuild a better marriage, then someday your wife finds out you had an EA. It could blow everything out of the water again. Tread carefully. My H confessed to an affair from 10 years ago. If that OW was still married to her H, I could've outed her a decade later.
> 
> Anyway, focus on the current situation. I only wanted to address the fact that you've had an EA that your wife does not know about, so it might be an issue that comes up later.


Yeah Saffron...I came really close telling her last night. I don't want her to feel like a horrible person, because she got caught up in something. It may seem strange...it isn't her getting caught up.....it is the demonizing me, letting this guy get close to the kids, and the rewriting history....that have me unglued. If I can get her to totally accept how serious this is...then maybe I'll tell her. But she seems to still be in the justifying her actions stage.


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## jessi

You need to inform the OM's wife, this is the best way to stop this relationship your wife is having with this man to end, are you waiting until they fall in love and she walks away from you?
Because that is what will happen. Blow it out of the water, have the OM's wife help you keep things safe from her end......
The OM will bolt if you put him in a place to chose....his wife will make him......
She is not acting appropriately, just because you give and excuse you need space, or don't feel married, doesn't give you the right to date or have someone else meet your emotional needs......
She needs to cut this man out totally, stop your daughters dance classes, she is not to be in any contact or see him ever again......
Move if you have to........
She can't work on anything in the marriage as long as she is emotionally attached to him........you are falling for the oldest trick in the book saying she needs time and space, yes she is so she can have her relationship with him, and you are making it easy for her, get back in your bed, start filling her emotional needs and don't let her control this............read the book the love dare, get surviving and affair by dr. harley........
educate yourself with what is really going on here, put a plan together and get your marriage and family back on track
don't believe a word she says right now, all a ploy a deflection, put a key logger on your comp, a tracker on her phone, a VAR in her car...........find out what you are up against.......
you are fighting an affair not your marriage...


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## bryanp

Contact the OM's wife now!!!. If the roles were reversed wouldn't you want to be told immediately? It is extremely unfair of you not to contact the OM's wife.

In addition, you are sending an unintended message to the OM that you are afraid of him, afraid of making a scene by telling his wife and telling him there are simply no consequences to him for trying to get your wife in bed with him. What are you thinking? Your passive approach to this will backfire on you. Nevertheless I wish you luck.


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## Entropy3000

chapparal said:


> I don't think he's done near enough to stop that. Anyone else get that feeling.


He made a good start. BUT, I agree. He needs to expose the affair to the OMW today. 

He also needs to realize that an affair is chemical. She is at least blame shifting. Like she needs a break from the kids, he ignored it and so she has to have sex with another man. Ummmm. No.

This guy was going to take vaction to have a fling with her!? He needs exposed now. If he exposes today he has a better chance at heading this off. If not this is still very likely to go physical very soon. This affair needs a spotlight. Not secrecy.

Anyway counseling and working on the marriage will not help until the affair is killed. It is chemical. She will have to go through withdrawal. She cannot be near this guy. At all.

It is hard to tell from posts but I get the feeling she will go underground to continue this.

Others may disagree but I think in this case exposure is critical. Not something to wait on.

It also amazes me how WSs feel violated by their spouse looking at their emails and texts but that having sex with another is not a big deal.

And yes, not exposing the OM comes off as weak and afraid in my opinion as well. Not saying you are. But he is getting that message.


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## Entropy3000

jessi said:


> You need to inform the OM's wife, this is the best way to stop this relationship your wife is having with this man to end, are you waiting until they fall in love and she walks away from you?
> Because that is what will happen. Blow it out of the water, have the OM's wife help you keep things safe from her end......
> The OM will bolt if you put him in a place to chose....his wife will make him......
> She is not acting appropriately, just because you give and excuse you need space, or don't feel married, doesn't give you the right to date or have someone else meet your emotional needs......
> She needs to cut this man out totally, stop your daughters dance classes, she is not to be in any contact or see him ever again......
> Move if you have to........
> She can't work on anything in the marriage as long as she is emotionally attached to him........you are falling for the oldest trick in the book saying she needs time and space, yes she is so she can have her relationship with him, and you are making it easy for her, get back in your bed, start filling her emotional needs and don't let her control this............read the book the love dare, get surviving and affair by dr. harley........
> educate yourself with what is really going on here, put a plan together and get your marriage and family back on track
> don't believe a word she says right now, all a ploy a deflection, put a key logger on your comp, a tracker on her phone, a VAR in her car...........find out what you are up against.......
> you are fighting an affair not your marriage...


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Entropy3000

DailyGrind said:


> Yeah Saffron...I came really close telling her last night. I don't want her to feel like a horrible person, because she got caught up in something. It may seem strange...it isn't her getting caught up.....it is the demonizing me, letting this guy get close to the kids, and the rewriting history....that have me unglued. If I can get her to totally accept how serious this is...then maybe I'll tell her. But she seems to still be in the justifying her actions stage.


I was in an EA so I am telling you the straight deal. I know how it is. Until she goes through withdrawal she will not be able to think straight. It is chemical. It took me six weeks to withdraw and I was no where near doing what they are doing. So it may take her longer.

Do not be reflective right now. Be agressive. Kill the affair at all costs and then there will be time to reflect and mend. That takes time as well.


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## Dadof3

Entropy3000 said:


> He made a good start. BUT, I agree. He needs to expose the affair to the OMW today.
> 
> He also needs to realize that an affair is chemical. She is at least blame shifting. Like she needs a break from the kids, he ignored it and so she has to have sex with another man. Ummmm. No.
> 
> This guy was going to take vactio to have a fling with her!? He needs exposed now. If he exposes today he has a better chance at heading this off. If not this is still very likely to go physical very soon. This affair needs a spotlight. Not secrecy.
> 
> Anyway counseling and working on the marriage will not help until the affair is killed. It is chemical. She will hve to go through withdrawal. She cannot be near this guy. At all.
> 
> It is hard to tell from posts but I get the feeling she will go underground to continue this.
> 
> Other may disagree but I think in this case exposure is critical. Not something to wait on.
> 
> It also amazes me how WSs feel violated by their spouse looking at their emails and texts but that having sex with another is not a big deal.
> 
> And yes, not exposing the OM comes off as weak and afraid in my opinion as well. Not saying you are. But he is getting that message.


E3K says what I think. 
:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## sigma1299

Entropy3000 said:


> I was in an EA so I am telling you the straight deal. I know how it is. Until she goes through withdrawal she will not being able to think straight. It is chemical. It took me six weeks to withdraw and I was no where near doing what they are doing. So it may take her longer.
> 
> Do not be reflective right. be agressive. Kill the affair at all costs and then there will be time to reflect and mend. That takes time as well.


As another person who partook of an EA I wholeheartedly second this!!!

This is like wrestling a bear - don't let up until you know it's dead!!


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## Dadof3

I would also add that the marriage won't improve under the threats of exposure. Its like something being held over their head. They will resent it (you would in the reverse situation), hence it is better to do the exposure and get the threat out of the arsenal.

I recommend that you get your marriage to the point of where threats are no longer tolerated - as a matter of fact - you will help them or they will help you carry out the threat. 

Threats have no real place in a good relationship.


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## DailyGrind

I hate to be so naive...but when I D-Day'd this with her.....I made her a deal....Come downstairs and discuss this, or I reveal to OMW immediately.

This morning I asked her what she would do when he tried contacting her. She said she would just explain it to him. I told her, WRONG ANSWER. She doesn't understand how serious this is. No Contact means NO CONTACT!

After reading all your all emails....I agree I should inform the OMW. I really find it hard to believe there will be no attempt at contact. Nothing so far, this morning...but then...she already knows her phone is suspect.

I just talked to her on the phone. I reiterated NO CONTACT...and she swore she would tell me if he tries. I had also told her this morning, before work, that I would be contacting a lawyer. She was shocked. When I just talked to her on the phone, I told her I loved her. She said "even after what you said this morning?"...meaning the lawyer. I said yes...and that I would be emailing her some options for a counselor for her to look at. She seemed hesitant. I asked her if she was changing her mind. She said..."well not if you are going to a lawyer." I told her the two issues were not related. The lawyer is for MY protection. The counselor is for OURS!


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## jessi

Look she will be angry when she learns you have exposed to everyone important to her, so what she will get over it.....you will have ruined her fantasy and she will have to be accountable for her actions.......your marriage can survive that, but not if she continues to see the other man, falls in love and leaves you.......
Right now your wife is affair fogged out and her only thoughts will be how to talk to him again and get her fix.......I would expose, sit her down and tell her that you will work on your marriage so both of you are happy but only when she agrees to no contact with the OM, sends him a no contact letter, with your approval and then being transparent with all her communication devices.......If she will not agree ask her to leave the home since she is the only deciding to not commit to the marriage.......
In the meantime you show her a strong, firm man willing to fight for his wife and his family.......don't yell, be understanding and compassionate, it will throw her off why you aren't angry, don't give her a reason to bolt, the decision will only be because of what her choice is, not because you are doing something awful.
Even if she leaves, that is okay, when the affair couple has to face everyone else it will blow that fantasy out the window and the real life problems will get in the way that is what you want. they will both see the other side of their perfect affair partners.....watch the OM dump her when his wife finds out, he won't lose everything for your wife, when you wife realizes this she will know she was being played and used.........
exactly what you want.....the sooner you do this the better, she will say all kinds of ugly things, like it's your fault because of the exposure, that she was going to give you a chance but not now.......
don't listen to the BS, she is trying to blame you for the perdicament she has herself in.......
If your children are old enough tell them as well.....simply state mommy is seeing another man when she is suppose to only see daddy..........and that she will not stop and will be moving out....
she may continue to contact him for a while but it will soon enough not be worth it to her any longer and she will see that her life is going to emplode if she doesn't get it together ......she needs to start acting like an adult again............
in the meantime the trick for you is to go on with your life, looking strong, not being her doormat, looking good, smell good, take care of her, cook, do little things she will notice you did for her, don't say anything just do it...........she will see you as the better choice, the one that will stick by her.......
If she moves out tell her it will be to difficult for you to have contact with her until she stops the relationship with the OM, and then stop seeing her, don't give her a DailyGrind fix, let her learn what life is without you and her life as she has known it.......
reality check in full force is what is needed......


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## Entropy3000

DailyGrind said:


> *I hate to be so naive...but when I D-Day'd this with her.....I made her a deal....Come downstairs and discuss this, or I reveal to OMW immediately.*
> 
> This morning I asked her what she would do when he tried contacting her. She said she would just explain it to him. I told her, WRONG ANSWER. She doesn't understand how serious this is. No Contact means NO CONTACT!
> 
> After reading all your all emails....I agree I should inform the OMW. I really find it hard to believe there will be no attempt at contact. Nothing so far, this morning...but then...she already knows her phone is suspect.
> 
> I just talked to her on the phone. I reiterated NO CONTACT...and she swore she would tell me if he tries. I had also told her this morning, before work, that I would be contacting a lawyer. She was shocked. When I just talked to her on the phone, I told her I loved her. She said "even after what you said this morning?"...meaning the lawyer. I said yes...and that I would be emailing her some options for a counselor for her to look at. She seemed hesitant. I asked her if she was changing her mind. She said..."well not if you are going to a lawyer." I told her the two issues were not related. The lawyer is for MY protection. The counselor is for OURS!


If your marriage is the number one priority then all other deals, feelings issues and so on take a back seat. Just tell her after further thought you realized you had to expose the affair and move on. Exposing the affair is not violating a deal. You guys took vows. Those trump everything else.

All is fair in love and war. This is war. Another man is trying to have sex with your wife.


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## Chaparral

Entropy3000 said:


> If your marriage is the number one priority then all other deals, feelings issues and so on take a back seat. Just tell her after further thought you realized you had to expose the affair and move on. Exposing the affair is not violating a deal. You guys took vows. Those trump everything else.
> 
> All is fair in love and war. This is war. Another man is trying to have sex with your wife.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Arnold

Just read the first page of this thread, so I hope this is appropriate. Your wife has a huge sense of entitlement, She has no appreciation for all you have done and she is a very disloyal woman.
She is testing the waters for cheating, another sign that she feels entitled and lacks integrity.


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## Arnold

chapparal said:


> And why haven't you blown this up to OM's wife? He's a scum bag, if it were me I would be calling on them both in person. The last thing he ever thought of would be to approach my wife again.


This is so right. It is unconscinable that you have not informed this poor woman. WTF?


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## DailyGrind

I am working on how to contact the OMW. Hopefully I can do so today. 

I don't know if my wife has contacted him, or not. When I confronted her, I didn't want her to think her phone was completely compromised...so i told her I found the emails through her Sent box (she was deleting her inbox emails...but not her sent ones.) I was hoping she would not realize I could see her emails (online) pretty much as fast as she could. That way, she would think I actually had to have physical access to her phone, to see the activity. I haven't seen any contact...but she could have just done so from work.

I emailed her yesterday with some possible options for a counselor. She picked a couple that we might contact. So, at least that is progressing. With the same email, I told her I wouldn't contact the lawyer. I explained I didn't want threats hanging over our heads...and that I hadn't decided whether I wanted to let OMW know anyway. When she replied about the counselors, she never mentioned my comment about informing the OMW.

We were supposed to talk more, last night....but when I got home, she seemed unapproachable. I figured I'd wait until the kids went to bed...but by then she was "too tired." This morning, I approached her...and told her I wanted to know why she went cold 1 1/2 years ago. She said she told me (the same rather innocuous things she mentioned previously.) I then said I wanted to know why RIGHT before she went cold....she got much warmer for a couple months (albeit...at the time I felt it was more frequency, but no real passion.) She said she was making a "last ditch effort." I told her, I never really felt she was making love to ME, during that time...and I feel something more was going on. She responded "shouldn't we wait until we get with one of the counselors, to talk about this stuff?" I said I thought counselors were to HELP us open up, and learn to communicate....not PRECLUDE efforts to do so. She said "it might be causing more harm, than good {talking before the counselor}." So...I've dropped it. Not sure how to proceed....with her. I really don't sense the remorse from her. She does appear to be following my requests....(counseling, NC) and seemed genuinely rattled by my mentioning a lawyer. But she still seems to not be willing to really talk about anything. I don't want to push...so I'll just let it alone until the counseling. But...man this is hard. I wish I had pushed more on D-Day...when she was rattled, instead of letting her go to bed. I'm afraid she has regrouped. Right now...we are not really any better than before the EA. {sigh}


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> I am working on how to contact the OMW. Hopefully I can do so today.
> 
> I don't know if my wife has contacted him, or not. When I confronted her, I didn't want her to think her phone was completely compromised...so i told her I found the emails through her Sent box (she was deleting her inbox emails...but not her sent ones.) I was hoping she would not realize I could see her emails (online) pretty much as fast as she could. That way, she would think I actually had to have physical access to her phone, to see the activity. I haven't seen any contact...but she could have just done so from work.
> 
> I emailed her yesterday with some possible options for a counselor. She picked a couple that we might contact. So, at least that is progressing. With the same email, I told her I wouldn't contact the lawyer. I explained I didn't want threats hanging over our heads...and that I hadn't decided whether I wanted to let OMW know anyway. When she replied about the counselors, she never mentioned my comment about informing the OMW.
> 
> We were supposed to talk more, last night....but when I got home, she seemed unapproachable. I figured I'd wait until the kids went to bed...but by then she was "too tired." This morning, I approached her...and told her I wanted to know why she went cold 1 1/2 years ago. She said she told me (the same rather innocuous things she mentioned previously.) I then said I wanted to know why RIGHT before she went cold....she got much warmer for a couple months (albeit...at the time I felt it was more frequency, but no real passion.) She said she was making a "last ditch effort." I told her, I never really felt she was making love to ME, during that time...and I feel something more was going on. She responded "shouldn't we wait until we get with one of the counselors, to talk about this stuff?" I said I thought counselors were to HELP us open up, and learn to communicate....not PRECLUDE efforts to do so. She said "it might be causing more harm, than good {talking before the counselor}." So...I've dropped it. Not sure how to proceed....with her. I really don't sense the remorse from her. She does appear to be following my requests....(counseling, NC) and seemed genuinely rattled by my mentioning a lawyer. But she still seems to not be willing to really talk about anything. I don't want to push...so I'll just let it alone until the counseling. But...man this is hard. I wish I had pushed more on D-Day...when she was rattled, instead of letting her go to bed. I'm afraid she has regrouped. Right now...we are not really any better than before the EA. {sigh}


How does the timeline add up with the other man? Are you thinking there might have been someone else one and a half or more years ago?


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> How does the timeline add up with the other man? Are you thinking there might have been someone else one and a half or more years ago?


Definitely NOT this same guy. I can't imagine it was another man...but then...I never imagined this. She says she had just reached the end of her rope. We had been miscommunicating for years...but I didn't really think it was anything other than normal marriage stress. She had finally started back to work, but we had a lot of financial stress. I know I was having problems with our sex life (at best 6-7 times a year.) But we were looking at a bright future. I don't know what happened. When she got warmer (suddenly more sex)....I obviously jumped all over that. Life was good. But, I slowly realized she was only going through motions. When night I mentioned I wanted to get intimate.....she said let's wait for the morning. When I woke, she was just laying there. I murmered...oh, your still here? She said "You said you wanted it...so go ahead"...and proceeded to just lay there like a fish. As I started making moves....it hit me like a brick. For the past two months, we were doing it more than ever...BUT....she was always just laying there like a fish. I pulled away, and said....I think I'd rather wait until she was into it. That was Feb 2010. We haven't touched in almost any way since. :scratchhead:


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## Chaparral

A lot of wayward wives that increase sexual activity do so in order to throw their partner off the scent, at least at first. Her not wanting to talk about it sounds suspicious. May be nothing but I would bring it up in counseling to gauge her reaction.

What would be the point of trying to become closer and then just lay there. She knew that you would soon find that unacceptable.


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## Halien

Some issues can be discussed before counseling. I'd be tempted to ask her why, at the same time she told you that she was willing to give it a try, she was also continuing a relationship with an OM. Ask her when she quit valuing honesty? Was it when she decided to pursue another relationship?

Some will disagree, and even say that you can't trust anything she says when she is in the fog, but certain 'tells' might at least let you guage where she is. If she blameshifts or denies on fundamental questions of integrity, based on what is already known as a given (that she was communicating with him), she's in the fog big time.


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## Shaggy

She is avoiding telling the truth and defecting, certainly there is a lot that she has done nd wants to hide.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

The girl's an enigma, wrapped in mystery...surrounded by uncertainty. Prides herself on it.....but then throws in my face "you don't get me." 

You can see why I struggle with the fight/flight response. I know there is SO much more we could be. Getting there is the challenge. And a constant question, is it worth it.

This episode, jolting as it is/was......is not a mystery. But...I made vows, sired children, and love her deeply regardless. Will I find true happiness with her? History suggests maybe not. But then...maybe a counselor will help us break through the fog. I just don't know.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> The girl's an enigma, wrapped in mystery...surrounded by uncertainty. Prides herself on it.....but then throws in my face "you don't get me."
> 
> You can see why I struggle with the fight/flight response. I know there is SO much more we could be. Getting there is the challenge. And a constant question, is it worth it.
> 
> This episode, jolting as it is/was......is not a mystery. But...I made vows, sired children, and love her deeply regardless. Will I find true happiness with her? History suggests maybe not. But then...maybe a counselor will help us break through the fog. I just don't know.


Good luck and be optimistic. Trust but verify. Hope you make it. Please keep us informed on progress especially with counselors. Reminding you that other posters say finding the right counselors are of the utmost importance

Also, three books that are exceptional are "The Five Love Languages, "Love Busters" and its follow up "His Needs Her Needs".

These books are all about communication. Like someone said you either have communication or disintegration.


----------



## Entropy3000

DailyGrind said:


> I am working on how to contact the OMW. Hopefully I can do so today.
> 
> I don't know if my wife has contacted him, or not. When I confronted her, I didn't want her to think her phone was completely compromised...so i told her I found the emails through her Sent box (she was deleting her inbox emails...but not her sent ones.) I was hoping she would not realize I could see her emails (online) pretty much as fast as she could. That way, she would think I actually had to have physical access to her phone, to see the activity. I haven't seen any contact...but she could have just done so from work.
> 
> I emailed her yesterday with some possible options for a counselor. She picked a couple that we might contact. So, at least that is progressing. With the same email, I told her I wouldn't contact the lawyer. I explained I didn't want threats hanging over our heads...and that I hadn't decided whether I wanted to let OMW know anyway. When she replied about the counselors, she never mentioned my comment about informing the OMW.
> 
> We were supposed to talk more, last night....but when I got home, she seemed unapproachable. I figured I'd wait until the kids went to bed...but by then she was "too tired." This morning, I approached her...and told her I wanted to know why she went cold 1 1/2 years ago. She said she told me (the same rather innocuous things she mentioned previously.) I then said I wanted to know why RIGHT before she went cold....she got much warmer for a couple months (albeit...at the time I felt it was more frequency, but no real passion.) She said she was making a "last ditch effort." I told her, I never really felt she was making love to ME, during that time...and I feel something more was going on. She responded "shouldn't we wait until we get with one of the counselors, to talk about this stuff?" I said I thought counselors were to HELP us open up, and learn to communicate....not PRECLUDE efforts to do so. She said "it might be causing more harm, than good {talking before the counselor}." So...I've dropped it. Not sure how to proceed....with her. I really don't sense the remorse from her. She does appear to be following my requests....(counseling, NC) and seemed genuinely rattled by my mentioning a lawyer. But she still seems to not be willing to really talk about anything. I don't want to push...so I'll just let it alone until the counseling. But...man this is hard. I wish I had pushed more on D-Day...when she was rattled, instead of letting her go to bed. I'm afraid she has regrouped. Right now...we are not really any better than before the EA. {sigh}


She will have to go through withdrawal first. That takes weeks of complete NC.


----------



## Chaparral

Time to out to the OMW. I'll bet they have both "regrouped".


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## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Good luck and be optimistic. Trust but verify. Hope you make it. Please keep us informed on progress especially with counselors. Reminding you that other posters say finding the right counselors are of the utmost importance
> 
> Also, three books that are exceptional are "The Five Love Languages, "Love Busters" and its follow up "His Needs Her Needs".
> 
> These books are all about communication. Like someone said you either have communication or disintegration.


Thanks...I downloaded both "Love Busters" and "His Needs Her Needs."


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## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Time to out to the OMW. I'll bet they have both "regrouped".


Working on it now. My admin, from work, is calling her to ask her to call me. Figured that way might get past his monitoring...if a female calls. If I initiated.....he might intercept. She should be calling the now....if the OMW is home.

Actually...my admin just called me. She spoke to the OMW. She remembered me from last weekend. My admin simply told her that I wanted her to call me...I had information about her marriage. Apparently, she told my admin...she is not surprised. She saw a text message from my wife (at some point) that she found odd. I'm wating for her call soon.


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## DailyGrind

Well....OM got to OMW first. Convinced her that he was trying to counsel her to get individual counseling. Now my wife is totally pissed at me. OMW was totally like, "I saw the texts (didn't see the emails)....we are direct people. He was telling me how he was coaching her."

And now...I just got a call from OM, trying to convince me the attempt at taking time off WAS only about trying to help her cause "she was so overwhelmed"...and just go for some coffee. GEEZ


----------



## Entropy3000

DailyGrind said:


> Well....OM got to OMW first. Convinced her that he was trying to counsel her to get individual counseling. Now my wife is totally pissed at me. OMW was totally like, "I saw the texts (didn't see the emails)....we are direct people. He was telling me how he was coaching her."
> 
> And now...I just got a call from OM, trying to convince me the attempt at taking time off WAS only about trying to help her cause "she was so overwhelmed"...and just go for some coffee. GEEZ


I hope you told the other man that if he approaches your wife again ever you will take him off the board.

Your wife has been unfaithful to you. Let her be pissed as you cannot control her, but let her also decide whether she is going to work on the marrriage or leave. She must go NC with this guy. If she refuses you know what you must do.

No man take vacation to chat with a married woman unless sex is on the menu.

If this is a real situation then the wife got her heads up. She may or may not be so naive. Do you really think she bought him takling vacation to be with another woman was not being unfaithful?

Also this is why one exposes this stuff ASAP.


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## Halien

DailyGrind said:


> Well....OM got to OMW first. Convinced her that he was trying to counsel her to get individual counseling. Now my wife is totally pissed at me. OMW was totally like, "I saw the texts (didn't see the emails)....we are direct people. He was telling me how he was coaching her."
> 
> And now...I just got a call from OM, trying to convince me the attempt at taking time off WAS only about trying to help her cause "she was so overwhelmed"...and just go for some coffee. GEEZ


What an idiot! And if his wife bought it ... well, I'm not going there. Your wife can't change her version of the story, which she's already admitted going too far, unless you express doubt in yourself. Stay strong.


----------



## TRy

DailyGrind said:


> Well....OM got to OMW first. Convinced her that he was trying to counsel her to get individual counseling. Now my wife is totally pissed at me. OMW was totally like, "I saw the texts (didn't see the emails)....we are direct people. He was telling me how he was coaching her."
> 
> And now...I just got a call from OM, trying to convince me the attempt at taking time off WAS only about trying to help her cause "she was so overwhelmed"...and just go for some coffee. GEEZ


This is new to the OMW. You tipped your wife off so she gave the OM a heads up. This allowed him to delete the bad ones and show his wife only what he wanted her to see. But although she did not jump on your side right now, you can bet that she will be watching him more.

Do not let the OMW weakness be your weakness. Do not back down. Your wife will be mad but so what. You did what you had to do.


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## DailyGrind

I don't know....it's so hard. I feel like every time I turn around, I'm [email protected]#$ing up this marriage...one more step at a time.


----------



## Shaggy

OMW may take some time to think about what she has been told and may very likely see the WTF aspects of his tale.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Shaggy said:


> OMW may take some time to think about what she has been told and may very likely see the WTF aspects of his tale.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

DG: Don't give up. Even the screw-ups will get your somewhere further than if you didn't do anything at all and let your WW run rough shod over you.

I wish I could convince you somehow that you really don't have anything to lose anymore. You only have your WW to gain, if this is played out. You will continue to make mistakes. Just make sure that you are heading the right direction with them.

Think about this concept carefully and long. Taste these words: You have NOTHING to LOSE anymore. She screwed up here. Not YOU. 

If you keep kissing her arse, she'll never respect you. Play this as if you have nothing to lose. REALLY!


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## Entropy3000

Dadof3 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> DG: Don't give up. Even the screw-ups will get your somewhere further than if you didn't do anything at all and let your WW run rough shod over you.
> 
> I wish I could convince you somehow that you really don't have anything to lose anymore. You only have your WW to gain, if this is played out. You will continue to make mistakes. Just make sure that you are heading the right direction with them.
> 
> Think about this concept carefully and long. Taste these words: You have NOTHING to LOSE anymore. She screwed up here. Not YOU.
> 
> If you keep kissing her arse, she'll never respect you. Play this as if you have nothing to lose. REALLY!


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## TRy

DailyGrind said:


> I don't know....it's so hard. I feel like every time I turn around, I'm [email protected]#$ing up this marriage...one more step at a time.


When she goes on the attack for telling the OMW, go right back at her. Ask her if it was nothing, why does it matter that you told the OMW. Then turn the tables and ask her why she tipped the OM off?


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## DailyGrind

TRy said:


> When she goes on the attack for telling the OMW, go right back at her. Ask her if it was nothing, why does it matter that you told the OMW. Then turn the tables and ask her why she tipped the OM off?


I did just that. She tried changing her story that "coffee" was all she really thought was in the cards, too. I told her the look on her face, when I confronted her (look of total guilt)....did NOT indicate COFFEE!! Then I demanded to know when she spoke to him yesterday. She screamed at me that she never contacted him. I did find out that the two of them worked out together on two mornings.


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## Dadof3

She sounds determined to keep at it. I would question yourself on why you want to stay married to her. Put her on notice that her behavior is totally unacceptable to your marriage and you will be mulling your options in the next few days.

These two mornings they worked out together - was it after your DDay when NC was to be had? She absolutely DID contact him in some way afterwards for him to get their stories straight. 

I would think there is a secret cell phone. Better check your bank records / receipts. You need the VARS in place now and keylogger (if you are technically saavy enough).


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> DG: Don't give up. Even the screw-ups will get your somewhere further than if you didn't do anything at all and let your WW run rough shod over you.
> 
> I wish I could convince you somehow that you really don't have anything to lose anymore. You only have your WW to gain, if this is played out. You will continue to make mistakes. Just make sure that you are heading the right direction with them.
> 
> Think about this concept carefully and long. Taste these words: You have NOTHING to LOSE anymore. She screwed up here. Not YOU.
> 
> If you keep kissing her arse, she'll never respect you. Play this as if you have nothing to lose. REALLY!


I think I can understand this. But...if there is no magic formula...what's the point of counseling? Isn't the counseling supposed to help give us the tools to work toward something? And if this is true...then wouldn't making mistakes just add more roadblocks to recovery? I'm not trying to kiss her ass....i just don't want to BE one.


----------



## Dadof3

DailyGrind said:


> Well....OM got to OMW first. Convinced her that he was trying to counsel her to get individual counseling. Now my wife is totally pissed at me. OMW was totally like, "I saw the texts (didn't see the emails)....we are direct people. He was telling me how he was coaching her."
> 
> And now...I just got a call from OM, trying to convince me the attempt at taking time off WAS only about trying to help her cause "she was so overwhelmed"...and just go for some coffee. GEEZ


DG: I think you need to have another conversation with the OMW and share the contents of what you had. Use facts and logic to explain that there is a smoking gun here and let her know the two have had inappropriate contact (workouts together) - which is def more than coffee. Ask her to do sleuthing on her end and she will be glad to know for sure.


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> She sounds determined to keep at it. I would question yourself on why you want to stay married to her. Put her on notice that her behavior is totally unacceptable to your marriage and you will be mulling your options in the next few days.
> 
> These two mornings they worked out together - was it after your DDay when NC was to be had? She absolutely DID contact him in some way afterwards for him to get their stories straight.
> 
> I would think there is a secret cell phone. Better check your bank records / receipts. You need the VARS in place now and keylogger (if you are technically saavy enough).


No...the two workouts were before D-Day. I don't know if she contacted him or not. If she did...it was probably from her work. D-Day was Thursday night. I don't think she's bought a secret phone, since then. If she had it before....she would have been using IT, instead of the one I got her. 

Any recommendations on a keylogger?


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> DG: I think you need to have another conversation with the OMW and share the contents of what you had. Use facts and logic to explain that there is a smoking gun here and let her know the two have had inappropriate contact (workouts together) - which is def more than coffee. Ask her to do sleuthing on her end and she will be glad to know for sure.


Surprisingly, it was the OMW that told me about the morning workouts. Seems like OM was sharing the texts with her (when the conversations were more innocent)....at least according to her. She didn't know about the emails. She didn't want me to send them to her.....she wanted to ask her husband. She seemed to be convinced that she was aware, all along, of her husband helping this poor wayward friend. I don't think she knew it all. But she seems to be in denial. I don't think I'll get anything more from her.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Surprisingly, it was the OMW that told me about the morning workouts. Seems like OM was sharing the texts with her (when the conversations were more innocent)....at least according to her. She didn't know about the emails. She didn't want me to send them to her.....she wanted to ask her husband. She seemed to be convinced that she was aware, all along, of her husband helping this poor wayward friend. I don't think she knew it all. But she seems to be in denial. I don't think I'll get anything more from her.


I think you will be surprised. If this doesn't make OMW jealous nothing will.

You will be fine. Om is spinning so hard he'll fall. Good job. If she keeps after you keep asking her about the secret meetings/workouts she's had with him without telling her husband she was going out on dates. And how she told him you know about them. This is way too obvious to let them lie out of it.

Most of all tell POSOM to stay the he!! away from your wife or else.


----------



## TRy

Contact a lawyer. Tell her that after you have done this. Tell her that you did this to know what your options are should she decide that she does not care about your concerns on this matter because her relationship with the other man is more important to her than you.

Let her know that in marriage two is company and three is a crowd.

As a side note. It may not be fair but it is reality. When you are young, women have the upper hand in finding a mate for a variety of reasons. When you get older, it shifts to the men having the upper hand. Whereas it is easy for a man to find another mate when they get older, one study showed that women over 40 are more likely to get raped than to find another husband. Bottom line is that if she forces you to walk, the dating market is actually better for you now than when you were younger. Life will go on for you, so be strong and do what is right.


----------



## DailyGrind

TRy said:


> As a side note. It may not be fair but it is reality. When you are young, women have the upper hand in finding a mate for a variety of reasons. When you get older, it shifts to the men having the upper hand. Whereas it is easy for a man to find another mate when they get older, one study showed that women over 40 are more likely to get raped than to find another husband. Bottom line is that if she forces you to walk, the dating market is actually better for you now than when you were younger. Life will go on for you, so be strong and do what is right.


Oh...trust me...she would have NO problem attracting some one. The day I met her, I thought she was (by far) the most beautiful woman I had ever met. She took my breath away. She's 11 years younger than me. I'll be turning 49 in a week. She'll be a stunning 38 in April. If anything...she is one of those women that get more attractive as she gets older. Me...I can pass for roughly her age. I could definitely use some toning up, and drop about 10-15 lbs. All-in-all....I'm sure I don't look too bad for 49....but...I sure don't really want to be putting that to a test.


----------



## TRy

DailyGrind said:


> Oh...trust me...she would have NO problem attracting some one. The day I met her, I thought she was (by far) the most beautiful woman I had ever met. She took my breath away. She's 11 years younger than me. I'll be turning 49 in a week. She'll be a stunning 38 in April. If anything...she is one of those women that get more attractive as she gets older. Me...I can pass for roughly her age. I could definitely use some toning up, and drop about 10-15 lbs. All-in-all....I'm sure I don't look too bad for 49....but...I sure don't really want to be putting that to a test.


OK, so that is the dynamics of your marriage and why she feels she has all the power. You need to drop the extra lbs, work out, dress better and raise your ratings on a scale of 1 to 10. Do it right now without saying anything to the wife. Also, honestly look at your alpha rating to see if it needs work, but remember that you do not have to be a jerk to be alpha.

You are heading in the right direction, so be strong and think clearly. You are actively trying to save your marriage, that is all that you can do. Even if you make a few mistakes along the way, doing nothing is the biggest mistake. At this point only time will tell.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Even though the affair may , I use the word may very loosely , be over your wife is still denying and dodging the truth . Your marriage cannot recover if she is not truthful ad remorseful , you will be in a worse place than before and divorce would be inevitable .

Sit down and write a set of prerequisites for your wife:

A no contact letter similar to the OM similar to the one below ,

No Contact Letter

commitment to the marriage and full transparency in all she does ,

true remorse in actions words and deeds

Give her these in writing and do not state what the consequences are , of she does not do this leave a reminder copy on the fridge or mail her it .

You wife is likely to decline all , start the 180 and assume you are heading for divorce . Engage a lawyer and see if you can file using adultery , if not the lawyer must include words that highlight inappropriate extra marital behaviours and name the OM . Why ? If after a few months your wife does not change her ways , the naming of the OM may give you the added threat of suing him for alienation of affection .

You are going to want to not do this , I must warn you if you do not follow an uncompromising plan your marriage is finished , no matter what you do unless she adheres to NC and achknowledges the affair you can count the days till you are divorced and the pain of drawing this out will be significant .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Eli-Zor said:


> true remorse in actions words and deeds
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This simply isn't going to happen, at this stage. This girl has so much anger at me, right now....that I simply can't understand. No doubt her love bank is below zero. Mine is hovering just over, I guess. I don't know how every attempt at making her happy, over the 13 year relationship, has caused so much trouble. I've gotten angry at her; yes...i've gotten frustrated and irritated with her.....but I never felt it was anything more than any couple venting at each other. Maybe it WAS me...but I simply can't believe these instances should be the focal point of her summation of our marriage. And she certainly isn't blameless. You can't tell me ANY normal male won't lash out in frustration, when their honeymoon-stage of marriage is sex every two-three MONTHS. I didn't .....we didn't ....address our issues properly. But you can't make a man feel unappreciated, unloved and unwanted...and not expect him to occassionally snipe at you, in frustration. 

Anyway....she has far to much resentment in her, right now, to feel remorse. She knows where SHE thought this was going. I knew it by her deflating demeaner, when I confronted her. She knows it by her insisting "it would never have happened"...meaning turning physical...as soon as I confronted her. She knew. I'm hoping a counselor will help us deal with these things.


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## Entropy3000

No doubt there were issues before her affair. But you have to view this at least for right now as her justifiying her actions and blame shifting. She is in the fog. There may or may not be anything concrete in what she is saying. 

Take this time to better yourself. Just do not fall into the frame of mind that you are responsible for the affair. That leads no where good for the marriage. She owns it. She has to go through withdrawal. As much resentment she may have for this or that no matter how serious to her, it is no excuse for her to be in an affair with another man and making plans to bring it physical. I am assuming they have not gone physical yet. The urgency to expose was top intervene to stop that level of betrayal. One hopes that they catch this very early.

We get that this is the playing field you have. Yes, your wife's resentment whether well founded or not is a big problem. This means she may be hell bent on cheating on you no matter what.

So you need to be prepared. Know your boundaries for this. You have to ask yourself do you wish to be married to this woman if she moves ahead with her affair after you have challenged her with it.

Yes the OM had gotten to his wife first which means that your wife found a way to communcate with him that you are un aware. This could have been from her work or borrowing a friends phone. Yes, some people have affair phones. She may get one now if she is going to move ahead with this. We cannot control people and don't want to. You did your best to get out in front of this. If she wishes to destroy the marriage then she will.

Also be prepared to further expose any more activity from the OM to his wife.


----------



## TRy

DailyGrind said:


> You can't tell me ANY normal male won't lash out in frustration, when their honeymoon-stage of marriage is sex every two-three MONTHS.


 A “sexless marriage” is defined by most researchers as having sex 10 or less times a year. You are thus officially in a sexless marriage. Since she is discussing your marriage issues with this OM, she has probably at one point told him this fact. The minute that she did, he knew that she was a vulnerable target that all he had to do was be a friend with so that he could slowly encourage her away from you at key monuments in time. You have a serious unaddressed issue that the OM has been more than willing to exploit.



DailyGrind said:


> Well....OM got to OMW first. Convinced her that he was trying to counsel her to get individual counseling. Now my wife is totally pissed at me. OMW was totally like, "I saw the texts (didn't see the emails)....we are direct people. He was telling me how he was coaching her."
> 
> And now...I just got a call from OM, trying to convince me the attempt at taking time off WAS only about trying to help her cause "she was so overwhelmed"...and just go for some coffee. GEEZ


 Now that I know about your sexless marriage I see the above prior post in a new light. The OM is “coaching” your wife to get individual counseling and not MC because he wants to let counseling do the dirty work of finishing off your marriage. He knows that some ICs will direct your wife away from the marriage in favor of seeking a more sexually compatibles mate so that she can be more happy. Basing the success of your marriage on how you sexually click comes from a popular book making the rounds that is now being recommended by some ICs. Such an IC is not there to save the marriage but to help the individual achieve happiness even if it is through divorce. The OM may research which IC to recommend based on which one is more likely to counsel her in this way.

The OM is not a friend of the marriage and he has now told you this over the phone when he said that he was helping your wife because "she was so overwhelmed", alluding to your bad marriage.

Instead of only going after your wife for her EA, you must also address your sexless marriage. Goggle “sexless marriage” and start reading up on what to do to fix it. There are many sites that will give you advice on how to address this. Just knowing that it is not necessarily a hopeless fact of your marriage will be a counterweight to what she is hearing from the OM. 

Let your wife know that you care to make her happy. Take her out on date nights where you cannot talk about negative things and where you are only allowed to have fun. Do not focus only on the negatives. You need to focus on happiness too.


----------



## Catherine602

Daily try the Marriage Builders web site - I think it is balanced and has many resources. It sounds like your marriage is very salvageable and could be stronger if you get to the bottom of what happened to make things sexless. The EA issues and obtaining a sincere apology and atonement must come first, before discussion of marital problems. 

It is common for the WS to talk about why they felt justified in being deceptive but don't get sucked into taking the blame for this. In addition, they rewrite the state of the marriage and what their LS is really like. It makes it easy for them to handle the guilt. 

Please don't take fault upon yourself. If you do, you will give her cheap forgiveness and never make her work to get back to you. She is likely to see you as weak and will not respect you. Be brave and sure - when she start to talk about what you did blah blah just say quietly it is nit about you but her betrayal. Then let her know you will talk to her when she is ready to acknowledge that she wrong. 

I agree with previous posters that you need to look and feel your best. Don't act as if you did something wrong. Spend time on you but don't take your eye off of her. Get new clothes and a haircut etc. Get some monitoring going. she will slowly wake up and begin to realize her error. Be the man she feel in love with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Oh...trust me...she would have NO problem attracting some one. The day I met her, I thought she was (by far) the most beautiful woman I had ever met. She took my breath away. She's 11 years younger than me. I'll be turning 49 in a week. She'll be a stunning 38 in April. If anything...she is one of those women that get more attractive as she gets older. Me...I can pass for roughly her age. I could definitely use some toning up, and drop about 10-15 lbs. All-in-all....I'm sure I don't look too bad for 49....but...I sure don't really want to be putting that to a test.


Do you tell her this? Even women who should know they are beautiful need to be told and romanced. and never stop taking your wife out on dates. Time together is everything.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Do you tell her this? Even women who should know they are beautiful need to be told and romanced. and never stop taking your wife out on dates. Time together is everything.


I used to make a point of telling my wife DAILY that she was beautiful. I would never leave, or come home, without giving her a hug/kiss. I told her frequently I loved her. I would send her flowers on non-special occassions. I always thanked her for every meal she cooked for us. When she went cold on me, I stopped...I couldn't bear being the only one giving out love. I basically put my head in the sand. I'm not proud of that...but it was my coping mechanism. I reached out a number of times, during those two years....but to no avail. This EA thrust me out of the sand, with sure realization I have to do SOMETHING. We may not survive....but, Lord, I hope so.


----------



## Entropy3000

TRy said:


> A “sexless marriage” is defined by most researchers as having sex 10 or less times a year. You are thus officially in a sexless marriage. Since she is discussing your marriage issues with this OM, she has probably at one point told him this fact. The minute that she did, he knew that she was a vulnerable target that all he had to do was be a friend with so that he could slowly encourage her away from you at key monuments in time. You have a serious unaddressed issue that the OM has been more than willing to exploit.
> 
> Now that I know about your sexless marriage I see the above prior post in a new light. The OM is “coaching” your wife to get individual counseling and not MC because he wants to let counseling do the dirty work of finishing off your marriage. He knows that some ICs will direct your wife away from the marriage in favor of seeking a more sexually compatibles mate so that she can be more happy. Basing the success of your marriage on how you sexually click comes from a popular book making the rounds that is now being recommended by some ICs. Such an IC is not there to save the marriage but to help the individual achieve happiness even if it is through divorce. The OM may research which IC to recommend based on which one is more likely to counsel her in this way.
> 
> The OM is not a friend of the marriage and he has now told you this over the phone when he said that he was helping your wife because "she was so overwhelmed", alluding to your bad marriage.
> 
> Instead of only going after your wife for her EA, you must also address your sexless marriage. Goggle “sexless marriage” and start reading up on what to do to fix it. There are many sites that will give you advice on how to address this. Just knowing that it is not necessarily a hopeless fact of your marriage will be a counterweight to what she is hearing from the OM.
> 
> Let your wife know that you care to make her happy. Take her out on date nights where you cannot talk about negative things and where you are only allowed to have fun. Do not focus only on the negatives. You need to focus on happiness too.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Yes he has friended her and now wishes to continue the carnage to the marriage as she is vulnerable and has bonded with him.


----------



## Entropy3000

DailyGrind said:


> I used to make a point of telling my wife DAILY that she was beautiful. I would never leave, or come home, without giving her a hug/kiss. I told her frequently I loved her. I would send her flowers on non-special occassions. I always thanked her for every meal she cooked for us. When she went cold on me, I stopped...I couldn't bear being the only one giving out love. I basically put my head in the sand. I'm not proud of that...but it was my coping mechanism. I reached out a number of times, during those two years....but to no avail. This EA thrust me out of the sand, with sure realization I have to do SOMETHING. We may not survive....but, Lord, I hope so.


Married Man Sex Life

You have to be careful on your approach. You want to demonstarate the best comibination of Alpha / Beta traits. If you go into Nice Guy mode you are totally doomed. Do not plead or beg. But you definitely need to be very Alpha with the OM. He is after having sex with your wife. It cannot be assumed he wants to be with her at all. He just wants some strange. His wife may overlook this as long as he stays with her.

IMHO the affair must stop, she must go through withdrawal and then you can look at His Needs Her Needs in the proper perspective.

Yes, marriagebuilders has an approach of Plan A / Plan B. As I recall they want you to meet needs if your love bank is low to bring that up and then do the 180 into plan B. What you do not want to do however is have her cake eating where she is in a PA with the OM and you are being nice to her. Just my opinion. But my opinion is based on a PA being a deal breaker.

This EA an be turned around but having it go to a PA is a whole other issue in my opinion. I don't know how you do it but this OM should get a good case of the Approach Anxiety. He needs to know that if he pursues you will go scorched earth on him.


----------



## Entropy3000

Catherine602 said:


> Daily try the Marriage Builders web site - I think it is balanced and has many resources. It sounds like your marriage is very salvageable and could be stronger if you get to the bottom of what happened to make things sexless. The EA issues and obtaining a sincere apology and atonement must come first, before discussion of marital problems.
> 
> It is common for the WS to talk about why they felt justified in being deceptive but don't get sucked into taking the blame for this. In addition, they rewrite the state of the marriage and what their LS is really like. It makes it easy for them to handle the guilt.
> 
> Please don't take fault upon yourself. If you do, you will give her cheap forgiveness and never make her work to get back to you. She is likely to see you as weak and will not respect you. Be brave and sure - when she start to talk about what you did blah blah just say quietly it is nit about you but her betrayal. Then let her know you will talk to her when she is ready to acknowledge that she wrong.
> 
> I agree with previous posters that you need to look and feel your best. Don't act as if you did something wrong. Spend time on you but don't take your eye off of her. Get new clothes and a haircut etc. Get some monitoring going. she will slowly wake up and begin to realize her error. Be the man she feel in love with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## DailyGrind

Okay...just spent the last couple hours on MarriageBuilders. Now....I'm wondering: local counseling (which focuses on communication issues, and what went wrong) versus the MarriageBuilders program. For obvious reasons (their site) the forum seems to be full of advice that MC is full of quacks.....use MB. Any advice on that from this group?


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Okay...just spent the last couple hours on MarriageBuilders. Now....I'm wondering: local counseling (which focuses on communication issues, and what went wrong) versus the MarriageBuilders program. For obvious reasons (their site) the forum seems to be full of advice that MC is full of quacks.....use MB. Any advice on that from this group?


In the intro to the "Love Busters" book it points out that marriage counseling used to be worthless. Poling marriage counselors showed that counseling wasn't keeping families together. 

Have no clue if this has changed.

"Love Busters" and "His Needs Her Needs" have sold millions of copies and are recommended a lot.

A lot of people have to try different therapist before they find one they like.


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## Chaparral

How did the conversation go with OM when he called to talk to you?

Has wifes anger subsided at all?


----------



## Arnold

The folks on that marriagebuilders site are pretty dogmatic. It may work, but some of them remind me of the folks at Jonestown.
I live in Minnesota and Harley is respected here. In fact, i think he is way less dogmatic than some of his supporters. I wonder if he is not a bit embarrassed by the tenacity and belligerence of one poster, Melody, in particular. I think she would drink kool aid if he suggested it.


----------



## DailyGrind

Arnold said:


> The folks on that marriagebuilders site are pretty dogmatic. It may work, but some of them remind me of the folks at Jonestown.
> I live in Minnesota and Harley is respected here. In fact, i think he is way less dogmatic than some of his supporters. I wonder if he is not a bit embarrassed by the tenacity and belligerence of one poster, Melody, in particular. I think she would drink kool aid if he suggested it.


Yeah...I saw a LOT of posts by Melody.


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## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> How did the conversation go with OM when he called to talk to you?
> 
> Has wifes anger subsided at all?


OM totally tried diminishing what was happening. Tried claiming that he was only trying to help her, because she seemed so overwhelmed. During the conversation with his wife, just before that...I learned that WW and OM went to work out at the gym together, on two occassions. Here's the weird things:

A) I asked my admin to call their house (I didn't want to ask for his wife, if he answered) and ask her to call me. My admin then called me back that she talked to OMW (which was admidedly a strange call), and said she remembered meeting me; she would call me. My admin ALSO said that she "wasn't surprised by this phone call, as I had seen a text from his wife to my husband that I found a little odd." So, I'm immediately wondering WHEN this text occured (one of the slew of texts happening right before they switched to emails......or a recent one, after DDay?) My admin seemed to think it was recent.

B) Anyway...like 40 minutes goes by, and she finally calls me. And I was floored. She totally was defending her husband, that she knew about the texts all along. She knew that her husband was trying to help my wife, because she was so overwhelmed. That she, and her husband, are direct people...and I'm taking this whole thing out of context.

C) I asked her if she knew about them making plans to get together some morning? She said, I know they have gone to the gym together a couple of times (news to me!)

C) I then asked her if she saw the emails. She said she saw texts. I know that WW had not used her phone to text, since 10/21 (when they switched to email, for some reason)...so I assumed she only saw the more innocent communications. Although, if OMW truly DID know that my wife and I were having problems....I'm floored that they were already discussing that early. 

D) OMW said that her husband even told her that he was trying to help her (WW), and that he was surprised that her communication abruptly ended (I assume meaning the NC email.)

E) I offered to send her the emails, but she rather curtly told me that SHE would talk to her husband about them; and if she felt there was anything there, she would let me know her thoughts. She had no interest in me sending them to her. She knew her husband would show her everything.

It was about 30 minutes later when OM called me. 

It all just seems odd. My admin was convinced that OMW thought something was up..and was a bit puzzled by one text she saw from my wife. And yet, when she called me....it was all....My husband was telling me all about his efforts to help her...all along. :scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## Almostrecovered

OMW is full rug sweeping mode, just like my OMW

you gave her the info and she then chose to do with it as she wished. Not much more you can do but provide more info as it comes to you.


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## Halien

Almostrecovered said:


> OMW is full rug sweeping mode, just like my OMW
> 
> you gave her the info and she then chose to do with it as she wished. Not much more you can do but provide more info as it comes to you.


Agreed. Think about it. Any reasonable woman would ask her husband why, out of 7 billion people, he felt that it was his calling to help a woman that he barely knew.


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## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> OMW is full rug sweeping mode, just like my OMW
> 
> you gave her the info and she then chose to do with it as she wished. Not much more you can do but provide more info as it comes to you.


Yeah. It was completely odd that she changed her tone a bit between talking to my admin, then talking to me. And the 40 minute lapse before calling me. I assume she talked to him first.

Another odd thing...the very next day, I missed a "blocked" phone number call to my cell phone. No message. But odd that it was blocked. Don't know if that has anything to do with anything....but......


----------



## Halien

DailyGrind said:


> Yeah. It was completely odd that she changed her tone a bit between talking to my admin, then talking to me. And the 40 minute lapse before calling me. I assume she talked to him first.
> 
> Another odd thing...the very next day, I missed a "blocked" phone number call to my cell phone. No message. But odd that it was blocked. Don't know if that has anything to do with anything....but......


I wouldn't read too much into it, though. Remember, this woman doesn't know you. Suddenly, an Admin calls her out of the blue. Maybe her husband then tells her some of the altered versions of the secrets that your wife may have shared... , painting you as a loose cannon who hurts people. It is entirely possible at this point that she might just be afraid that you'll go off like a loaded gun, exposing this to the whole word. Give it time. She'll see that you're more level headed in your approach to the EA, and contact you, or she'll just sweep it under the rug.


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## Entropy3000

Halien said:


> Agreed. Think about it. Any reasonable woman would ask her husband why, out of 7 billion people, he felt that it was his calling to help a woman that he barely knew.


Agreed. Why in the world is her husband counceling another woman on her marriage and meeting up with her. Who knows maybe the wife likes the WW too.

Anyway the action to take in my opinion is to tell the OM and the OMW that this is not appreciated and that their activities with the WW will be considered as hostile to the marriage and that it will not be tolerated in the other man trying to carry on an affair with the wife.

They may also have an arrangement / open marriage.


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## Shaggy

It sounds like what happened was the OMW confronted her husband too soon and he down played it big time.

hence why you should not confront before really ready.


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## Chaparral

Its been about three days since you talked to OMW. You haven't aid anythiing about what your wife is doing.


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## Dadof3

DG isn't a thread spawner like some on here? If not - I agree with Chapparal. Waas up?


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## Chaparral

This is from about a year ago. You need to go back and reread your thread. Sorry DG but I am not surprised at the mess your in.
I can't figure what you have been doing for the last year. What I am surprised by is that she hasn't left.

Don't get me wrong, I hope your marriage survives but I don't see how it possibly can. And after reading your threads my thpought is that you have not provided the leadership, manup role required of a husband. Yes your wife has problems, but from looking at this thread its obvious your wife finds trying to communicate with you is useless.

Not saying thats right but several people tried to point that out to you and you just kept plowing through totally oblivious. 

And tellingly no more mention of counseling. If this episode doesn't get you off the starting line nothing will. Just let her go. 


I wish other posters would read his thread and tell me I am wrong.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...on/14679-i-never-thought-would-happen-me.html



Re: I Never Thought it Would Happen to Me 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amplexor 
I'm not interested in sex with you because I'm not emotionally attached to you anymore. 

{sigh}...yes....I know this. The proverbial chicken/egg story, here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Amplexor 
I really sense the two of you don't speak the same language. 

We've both taken the test on this. As you say, we don't have the same language. Mine is Touch, then Words of Affirmation. Hers is Quality Time and Acts of Service.

No doubt...we've been missing the mark here. As things got worse and worse at home...I retreated and retreated (usually to my home office....or stayed at my work office).....the exact opposite of what she needed. And she got less and less physical (I'm not talking about sex....she missed that mark, beginning with our honeymoon). I was always the more affectionate..but I could feel her NOT responding to my hugs, and affection....the exact opposite of what I needed. Since I read the Love Languages, and realized her language (about 3 weeks ago)....I've made it a point to be around more...even just sitting on the couch, watching tv with the family. This is something I know (now) I didn't do enough. As I said...I always retreated. Never wanted to confront the problems in our relationship. I knew we were failing....but I simply buried my head. She did too. Not a good situation.

I've really been thinking about the Love Dare thing. We've got about 40 days until our anniversay. I'm guessing, between counseling...and some form of Love Dare (in her language)....if that doesn't work...at least I tried.

By the way...not anger....more like despair. I've watched this relationship crumble for many years. I never knew what to do (still don't). I've never known how to communicate with her. In many ways, this woman completes me...or so I thought. Now....I still love her dearly....but I don't love the bitter, cold-hearted person she's become. I vowed to take care of this woman (honor and charish)....and I feel I've failed...so far.

Thanks for listening.


----------



## Initfortheduration

counseling only works if your beliefs match the counselor. As an example, some counselors (I experienced one myself, who actually suggested that we get a divorce. We were married for about 3 years. We are going to celebrate our 32 anniversary in march.). some counselors don't even believe in marriage. Your wife sounds a lot like my SIL. She just seems to be a miserable person. You sound like you want a loving, communicative marriage, but your wife if I may say it, has contempt for you. Thats why she says "what do you have to bitter about". That my friend is called contempt. It is her devaluing you as a person. Contempt is the one thing marriage can't heal. Time to make a decision.


----------



## DailyGrind

Initfortheduration said:


> counseling only works if your beliefs match the counselor. As an example, some counselors (I experienced one myself, who actually suggested that we get a divorce. We were married for about 3 years. We are going to celebrate our 32 anniversary in march.). some counselors don't even believe in marriage. Your wife sounds a lot like my SIL. She just seems to be a miserable person. You sound like you want a loving, communicative marriage, but your wife if I may say it, has contempt for you. Thats why she says "what do you have to bitter about". That my friend is called contempt. It is her devaluing you as a person. Contempt is the one thing marriage can't heal. Time to make a decision.


How do you get around contempt?


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> This is from about a year ago. You need to go back and reread your thread. Sorry DG but I am not surprised at the mess your in.
> I can't figure what you have been doing for the last year. What I am surprised by is that she hasn't left.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I hope your marriage survives but I don't see how it possibly can. And after reading your threads my thpought is that you have not provided the leadership, manup role required of a husband. Yes your wife has problems, but from looking at this thread its obvious your wife finds trying to communicate with you is useless.
> 
> Not saying thats right but several people tried to point that out to you and you just kept plowing through totally oblivious.
> 
> And tellingly no more mention of counseling. If this episode doesn't get you off the starting line nothing will. Just let her go.
> 
> 
> I wish other posters would read his thread and tell me I am wrong.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...on/14679-i-never-thought-would-happen-me.html


Wow, Chapparal.....thanks....I think. I had pretty much forgotten these earlier posts. And you are right. I reread my entire posts. I can't believe how angry I sound. It did sound to be all about me, didn't it? That's kind of an eye-opener. I don't think, over the past year, I've been as angry. But neither were we adding much to the love bank, either.

To be brutally honest.....the time period between those posts, and now....such a blink of an eye. I got so insanely busy at work......and time seems a blur. Everything went into limbo. In March, I got a promotion.....and the work load doubled. It's only been the last three weeks that I've been able to start to see the life around me, again.

Our minister didn't work out, as a counselor. He was too wrapped up in some projects..and we could never get a schedule set with him. We didn't pursue another counselor because of my schedule...and we really couldn't afford it financially.

That being said....over the past year, I definitely made more time to be around the family. I tried doing the quality time...as much as possible. I also made it a point to help out much more, around the house. Albeit...nothing like it should have been. I've been trying to avoid what I think are her Love Busters.....but not making deposits really, either. When I got promoted...I wound up basically working both jobs, until we finally hired my replacement in August. Slowly...the job fog is lifting.

I know I've been deficient here. No excuses. I have been anticipating this next Spring (if there is one for us.) My new position entitles me to a substantial bonus (in March.) Between that, and the staggered raises I'm getting....to take me to my new salary......I know that next year we will FINALLY be out of our financial issues. With THAT stress gone...and the ability to start doing so much more together...I was really hoping we would be able to start focusing on us. We actually had started planning to take a trip to Florida (just the two of us) during Thanksgiving break. Turns out we couldn't pull it off...but had hoped to do so, sometime in the Spring. I won free airline tickets, for two, to anywhere in the Continental US...at our Christmas Party, last year. We were going to use those tickets to get away.

Anyway...we have scheduled with a MC on this Saturday. This counselor uses Imago Therapy. Anyone know about that? I'm hoping we can learn how to better communicate from this counselor. Meanwhile, I'll also begin following the concepts on MarriageBuilders and His Needs, Her Needs. I'll just focus on that. We'll see where this all goes. {sigh}


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Wow, Chapparal.....thanks....I think. I had pretty much forgotten these earlier posts. And you are right. I reread my entire posts. I can't believe how angry I sound. It did sound to be all about me, didn't it? That's kind of an eye-opener. I don't think, over the past year, I've been as angry. But neither were we adding much to the love bank, either.
> 
> To be brutally honest.....the time period between those posts, and now....such a blink of an eye. I got so insanely busy at work......and time seems a blur. Everything went into limbo. In March, I got a promotion.....and the work load doubled. It's only been the last three weeks that I've been able to start to see the life around me, again.
> 
> Our minister didn't work out, as a counselor. He was too wrapped up in some projects..and we could never get a schedule set with him. We didn't pursue another counselor because of my schedule...and we really couldn't afford it financially.
> 
> That being said....over the past year, I definitely made more time to be around the family. I tried doing the quality time...as much as possible. I also made it a point to help out much more, around the house. Albeit...nothing like it should have been. I've been trying to avoid what I think are her Love Busters.....but not making deposits really, either. When I got promoted...I wound up basically working both jobs, until we finally hired my replacement in August. Slowly...the job fog is lifting.
> 
> I know I've been deficient here. No excuses. I have been anticipating this next Spring (if there is one for us.) My new position entitles me to a substantial bonus (in March.) Between that, and the staggered raises I'm getting....to take me to my new salary......I know that next year we will FINALLY be out of our financial issues. With THAT stress gone...and the ability to start doing so much more together...I was really hoping we would be able to start focusing on us. We actually had started planning to take a trip to Florida (just the two of us) during Thanksgiving break. Turns out we couldn't pull it off...but had hoped to do so, sometime in the Spring. I won free airline tickets, for two, to anywhere in the Continental US...at our Christmas Party, last year. We were going to use those tickets to get away.
> 
> Anyway...we have scheduled with a MC on this Saturday. This counselor uses Imago Therapy. Anyone know about that? I'm hoping we can learn how to better communicate from this counselor. Meanwhile, I'll also begin following the concepts on MarriageBuilders and His Needs, Her Needs. I'll just focus on that. We'll see where this all goes. {sigh}


Have you sat down and gone over all this and explained it all to your wife until she understands?

If she was on board you should know it. Are you just assuming she gets it?

If she did she would not be seeking solace from another man. And no, I doubt that she knows he was going after her pants. I also have no doubt thats where this would have/will end up.

In the last year, while you have been busy, things have gone from bad to a near disaster. Assuming you know everything, and thats depending on their honesty........hope your using the VAR in her car, keylogger etc. Cheaters going underground upon discovery is more than common on these threads and OM seems very well prepared. You already know they have been meeting up to "workout".


----------



## Chaparral

Also, when you go to MC quit worrying about your isuues with her so much until you can get to the bottom of all of hers. After you get that resolved then work your issues into the sessions. You may find when you resolve her issues yours may disappear.

And remember you will not learn anything without asking questions and then learning to keep your mouth closed, not interrupting and really listening.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Also, when you go to MC quit worrying about your isuues with her so much until you can get to the bottom of all of hers. After you get that resolved then work your issues into the sessions. You may find when you resolve her issues yours may disappear.
> 
> And remember you will not learn anything without asking questions and then learning to keep your mouth closed, not interrupting and really listening.


Chapparal...I want to really thank you. I have no idea where this will head...I really don't. But...having me look back on my prior thread REALLY opened my eyes. I could literally feel the anger, from my prior words, pouring out of every word. I can't believe I was so closed minded, that I couldn't see her pain. I looked at everything through the blinders of MY pain. Although, I know I also spent the last year so wrapped up in work....I also did come to grips with our situation. I knew it wasn't good, and knew it was very likely to wind up in divorce. However, I also knew that our financial problems essential cease, around March. In March, I get a pretty decent bonus....and my salary increase (over this time last year) will be roughly 25% increase in gross pay. I guess I've been putting a LOT of faith that with that burden off our shoulders, we would really be able to unleash our potential better. Over this past year, the issues were still there...and I TRIED speaking HER love language, as much as I could. But...we definitely were not spending any UA together. I'm finally coming out of that work fog (finally hired a couple peope to replace me....note...it took a COUPLE people......so you can imagine how busy I was BEFORE taking the promotion.) Now...I can settle back into a dull roar, at work....focus more on the family...and hopefully right this ship.

Anyway...as to what is she doing NOW?? She is obviously angry with me. Might even be contempt.....actually, looking back....I'm sure there has been contempt for some time. Which just fueled my anger back at her. Now...it makes me sad. Progress, or just as bad? She is making an effort to acknowledge me, however....one of the things we fought about two weeks ago (no hello, goodbye, goodnight)...and that I noticed last June (2010.) A friend of hers invited us (with her husband) to go to a comedy club on Friday, to see Pauly Shore. Even though it is with another couple, I REALLY welcome the chance to spend some time with her..that isn't dark, and thick with resentment. Above all else...if we are to survive...we need to start having fun. We DO have a MC appointment on Saturday. This really sucks. JUST when we actually start getting some extra money in our pockets....we have to start giving it to a counselor.  But...I guess....it is either that....or...a lawyer. Better of two evils.


----------



## DailyGrind

Well...the conversation may all be moot, I'm afraid. She promised me no contact. I even asked her this morning if there was any contact...to which I got an emphatic "NO WAY...ARE YOU KIDDING??!!!"

Alas....I look at the cell phone activity. There is a 17 min. call to a cell phone number (I don't recognize) but the description is the area of the OM. This call happened Monday, mid-day. Anyone know how to get the registered name on a cell phone? I tried a reverse lookup, but all I got was his street. I know it was him...but it is a different number. I want something conclusive. {broken heart}!


----------



## Almostrecovered

you try cidlookup.com ?


----------



## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> you try cidlookup.com ?


Huh? Cidlookup is giving a completely different area. I hesitate to pay for the information...if it is wrong. Jesus!! If Cidlookup is correct...the number could be the other couple we plan on going to the Comedy Club with. Which makes sense, since IMMEDIATELY after that 17 minute call...she called the Comedy Club to reserve our tickets. HOLY S^*T....I about had a heart attack!! But then...why would the first lookup give the area of the OM? I mean...it put it within yards of the guys street!!

I SWEAR....her problems may be over soon....this whole thing is going to put me in the hospital, with a heart attack!!


----------



## Almostrecovered

been there with the scares, which is why it's best to confirm as best you can


----------



## sadcalifornian

Yeah, listen to Almostrecovered. He is one of the success stories of this forum. 

Why don't you just call the number?


----------



## Chaparral

I wpould get someone else to call the number. If its him I would call the OMW and find out what the He!!.


----------



## DailyGrind

Well...I went ahead and ordered a reverse cell phone lookup. Paid five bucks, and go bull***t. Every single phone lookup I've tried, except for Cidlookup, puts this phone right in the OM's backyard. Cidlookup puts it in another town. I looked up the number for the couple we are going to the comedy club with...and it isn't this number.

So...I order the report...and get:
Name: Call Maryland
Type: Cellular
Carrier: Verizon Wireless
County: My County

WTF??? It gave me more information BEFORE I bought the report!!! I don't think calling the number will help.....I wouldn't be able to tell who answered. I don't want to clue him in.


----------



## the guy

VAR!!!!
Reverse Look up is weak, but the VAR works best, plant a few and it may help validate axactly who she's talking to.


----------



## Shaggy

Get the darn VAR. if you want to call the number borrow a friends cell phone and call it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Well...I went ahead and ordered a reverse cell phone lookup. Paid five bucks, and go bull***t. Every single phone lookup I've tried, except for Cidlookup, puts this phone right in the OM's backyard. Cidlookup puts it in another town. I looked up the number for the couple we are going to the comedy club with...and it isn't this number.
> 
> So...I order the report...and get:
> Name: Call Maryland
> Type: Cellular
> Carrier: Verizon Wireless
> County: My County
> 
> WTF??? It gave me more information BEFORE I bought the report!!! I don't think calling the number will help.....I wouldn't be able to tell who answered. I don't want to clue him in.


Someone on here said the cheap throw away phones would show up like this. I hate to say it but her's may be the only number he would answer. 

One thing I would do is have the phone company block any calls from that number. They would figure it out and know your still onto them.

It would be cool if you could get a woman to call that number from her phone. 

Personally I wouldn't f*** around with the other man anymore. I would put the fear of God in him.


----------



## Chaparral

Was the call to or from her cell?


----------



## DailyGrind

It was FROM her cell. I foolishly tried ANOTHER service. Bunch of crooks. It identified it was from his area....sucked me into paying....then the result was......"number not found."

Alright...I just tried calling the number. Voicemail was a woman. I couldn't swear...but I thought it sounded like OMW. huh???


----------



## Shaggy

You could always google on how to call from a fake number. Turns out it easy to fake out caller id do that your call shows up as coming from another number.

Not that I endorse such deception.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

the guy said:


> VAR!!!!
> Reverse Look up is weak, but the VAR works best, plant a few and it may help validate axactly who she's talking to.


Yes...I'll get one this weekend.

When it rains, it pours....my car broke down today. I HOPE it is only the waterpump....but water was pouring out of the bottom of my engine (which overheated.)


----------



## Shaggy

Could the OM being using his wife's phone, or could the OMW try to talk to your wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Did you block your number before you called?


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Did you block your number before you called?


THAT would have been smart. :scratchhead:

I'm simply not thinking straight, these days.


----------



## DailyGrind

Shaggy said:


> Could the OM being using his wife's phone, or could the OMW try to talk to your wife?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Weird thing is SHE called the number. They would have HAD to communicate before this, for her to have the number.

Should I challange this with WW?


----------



## Dadof3

DailyGrind said:


> Weird thing is SHE called the number. They would have HAD to communicate before this, for her to have the number.
> 
> Should I challange this with WW?


or you could monitor it for activity and blow her continued contact wide open. i would tend to believe what most services tell u about where its coming from.


----------



## Shaggy

Couple of possibilities, they have a communication channel you don't know about.

The OMW may have left her a message to call her, you know to tell her nothing's going on just helpful advice on saving their marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Another possibility is the OM had a woman record the voice mail MSG to throw you off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Shaggy said:


> Couple of possibilities, they have a communication channel you don't know about.
> 
> The OMW may have left her a message to call her, you know to tell her nothing's going on just helpful advice on saving their marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then..shouldn't she have told me? She's asleep right now....planning on going to the gym early in the morning....also went yesterday. I'm more than half tempted to go wake her and demand an answer.


----------



## Dadof3

get someone to follow her into the gym for ya. i think this gym needs to be off-limits - part of the NC. She already admitted to working out there 2x with OM. 

Strong indication that she hasn't gone NC. Trust but verify. DDay#2 will have far worse implications for your marriage if she isn't genuinely remorseful and transparent.


----------



## Shaggy

I would monitor and get that var for a day or two before confronting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Then..shouldn't she have told me? She's asleep right now....planning on going to the gym early in the morning....also went yesterday. I'm more than half tempted to go wake her and demand an answer.


I think I would take a day off and "show" up at the gym. Or at least take off long enough to see if OM turns up.


----------



## Shaggy

Can you follow her to the gym. The call today may have been to set up something for tomorrow?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Guys....I am REALLY bad at this. I just woke her up, wanting to know who she talked to on Monday. She said it was OMW. 

Me: "Why did you call her"
Her: "she sent me a message asking me to call her."
Me: "why didn't you tell me."
Her: "why would I need to tell you anything?"
Me: "you have to know how sensitive I am about this."
Her: silence
Me: "what did you talk about"
Her: silence
Me: "you show no remorse, what so ever"
Her: "Because I have nothing to be remorseful about."
Me: "you wanted to do something"
Her: "no I didn't"
me: "really??? If not...then why were the first words out of your mouth 'I wouldn't have gone through with it.' And why did you slump completely when I showed you the cell phone."
Her: silence
Me: "you won't say anything?"
Her: "why can't we just talk about this on Saturday?" (counseling session)
Me: "because I don't believe you will try. You never tried last year, when we went to our minister. we were assigned 30 minutes of together time, each day. you couldn't get passed the second day, before you quit that."
Her: silence
Me: "You won't talk to me?"
Her: silence
Me: "what did I ever do to you, so bad?"
Her: "why can't we just talk about this on Saturday?" 

I just turned and walked away. I tell you...my flight impulse is soooo damned strong, right now. I can't...but I'm dying. I guess I have no choice but to wait until Saturday.


----------



## Chaparral

Call the other mans wife before your wife can get in touch with her. How did you find out she made the call in the first place. Is she transparent with her phone?

You actually jumped the gun and got nothing. Call OMW and see if you can salvage this.


----------



## Chaparral

Me: "you have to know how sensitive I am about this."


Just my opinion, never use sensitive to describe yourself unless your talking to a gay man and your lying. Also, never use the word cringe. LOL


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Call the other mans wife before your wife can get in touch with her. How did you find out she made the call in the first place. Is she transparent with her phone?
> 
> You actually jumped the gun and got nothing. Call OMW and see if you can salvage this.


I actually DO believe it WAS the OMW. 

I think I just have to come to the very staggering realization that she is gone. I need to prepare for divorce. I'm not sure how we would do this. Maryland requires a two-year separation (different households) for divorce. We can't afford for either one of us to move out....so, I would need to live with this complete coldness for another five months, before I could THINK about a separation. What a miserable future.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> I actually DO believe it WAS the OMW.
> 
> I think I just have to come to the very staggering realization that she is gone. I need to prepare for divorce. I'm not sure how we would do this. Maryland requires a two-year separation (different households) for divorce. We can't afford for either one of us to move out....so, I would need to live with this complete coldness for another five months, before I could THINK about a separation. What a miserable future.


I hope you wake up this morning with more courage. You have no idea what is going on. Why would you wait for the weekend to get some VARs?

At least put up a fight for your family. CALL THE OMF. I am doubting she is the one wife talked to. Sis you ask her who she talked to or if she talked to OMW? You should have been checking phone records every day. Guessing they are still meeting up. Repeat call the other mans wife.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I hope you wake up this morning with more courage. You have no idea what is going on. Why would you wait for the weekend to get some VARs?
> 
> At least put up a fight for your family. CALL THE OMF. I am doubting she is the one wife talked to. Sis you ask her who she talked to or if she talked to OMW? You should have been checking phone records every day. Guessing they are still meeting up. Repeat call the other mans wife.


I took my daughter to her dance class, last night (site of where WW and OM met.) For the first time, OMW brought their daughter to the class. I have no doubt that SOMETHING happened at their house. And....I can't imagine her loaning him her cell phone, during the workday. I have to say...I'm confidant my wife talked to OMW. I see that the same phone DID text WW on Sunday afternoon (day after I talked to OMW.)

So...one of two scenarios:

A) OMW talked to my wife about staying away from her husband...followed up with bringing their child to dance class ...so they wouldn't be together at all;

B) OMW talked to my wife about what a kook I am, and is supporting her in her assessment that she should be moving away from me. BUT...if this is the case...then she would have known that I was brining my daughter to dance class...and would not have needed to replace her husband (taking daughter)..as my wife wouldn't be there. In which case....why did she come? We never talked at the class. She had another couple with her.

Based on my wife's renewed "no need for remorse".....I think scenario B is more likely...but then ....I have to stop listening to my brain. It has gone mush.

As to VAR.....these converstions are happening in her office, not in her car. I was planning on getting one this week....actually tonight. But my car broke down last night (great!!) Now, it will have to wait until possibly this weekend.


----------



## Chaparral

I don't think your wife believes she was in an EA headed for PA...OM knew but she may have just been played. 

Good luck on counseling.

Oh, I would still call OMW. For one thing you need to show her your not a nut. If done right you may be able to get info.


----------



## Chaparral

Anyway to tell if OM is working out at same time? You and OMW at dance class at same time is weird also. Where were OM and your wife then.

Can you GPS her phone?


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Anyway to tell if OM is working out at same time? You and OMW at dance class at same time is weird also. Where were OM and your wife then.
> 
> Can you GPS her phone?


Wife had to pick me up, because my car broke down. She then took older daughter to Girl Scouts. I've thought about GPS'ng her phone. I have an Iphone...which has "fine my phone" on it. I don't know what to get for a Blackberry.


----------



## Entropy3000

chapparal said:


> I think I would take a day off and "show" up at the gym. Or at least take off long enough to see if OM turns up.


Bingo


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I think I would take a day off and "show" up at the gym. Or at least take off long enough to see if OM turns up.


Problem is, she's going to the gym before work, at 5:45 AM. I know she gets there, cause I can see check-in times for my account...on their website. But...I've got the kids. I can't load them into the car, that early...to go spy on mommy.


----------



## Dadof3

Dis iss vy ve suggested u haf a friend follow her to gym.


----------



## Dadof3

Sometimes it wouldn't hurt to have a chat with the desk staff there too. Ask one if they wouldn't mind keeping an eye on the vifey and who else she sees there.


----------



## Dadof3

or even private I!


----------



## Entropy3000

DailyGrind said:


> Problem is, she's going to the gym before work, at 5:45 AM. I know she gets there, cause I can see check-in times for my account...on their website. But...I've got the kids. I can't load them into the car, that early...to go spy on mommy.


I would insist she change her schedule since the GYM was part of the affair get togethers. You should not be stuck at home while the wife is out and about at this time.


----------



## DailyGrind

Entropy3000 said:


> I would insist she change her schedule since the GYM was part of the affair get togethers. You should not be stuck at home while the wife is out and about at this time.


That's the problem. I won't get any such commitment from her, since she feels there is no affair. She has totally regrouped...and we are back to I'm a heinous monster, that should be punished. She owes me nothing. She was definitely contrite, but not remorseful, after the exposure. I've lost my leverage. She doesn't even know if she WANT's the marriage, at this point. I fear she is looking forward to the counselor, so she can unload all her pent up bile on me. Every slight (distorted/inaccurate as they may be), every perceived issue .....all justification for her anger. And NOW...she can add...snooping, immature and paranoid....to her list of adjectives for why she dispises me so much. It ISN'T about looking forward...to be sure. I am SOO looking forward to this....not


----------



## Almostrecovered

this exactly why I say MC is worthless if an affair is ongoing


----------



## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> this exactly why I say MC is worthless if an affair is ongoing


Almost...I was hoping you'd chime in. I read your whole story. I don't know how you got through it. It gave me hope though. 

Difference is....your wife was at least still in love with you. Mine lost feelings for me years ago...and would never tell me why. I know there wasn't an affair then. She harbors incredible resentment for me...and the few examples she gives me are so petty....and clearly misunderstood....i can't believe they are even issues. But they are....and they are her feelings...so I have to accept them as such, and deal with them.


----------



## Almostrecovered

DailyGrind said:


> Difference is....your wife was at least still in love with you.



and that my friend makes all the difference in the world


----------



## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> and that my friend makes all the difference in the world


Which is what kills me. I know there is no one I ever worked harder for, in the past. And yet....I somehow didn't work hard enough in the RIGHT ways. Stupidity, ignorance, stubborness.....doesn't matter. In the end...it may have all just been wasted time/breath/effort/years! I would do ANYTHING to have done it better. But the only way to have done that, is if she had EVER opened up to me...and just let me know her issues. Instead, she harbored them, and let them fester. :scratchhead:


----------



## Almostrecovered

stop blaming yourself

were you perfect?

no, none of us are

but you didn't force your wife into an affair


----------



## Dadof3

DG: I agree with what everyone else has said that during an affair, MC will more than likely aggravate than help. Having said that, let me also say this:

When you have this session. Let her get it out. Don't counter her accusations, etc. Present your side in a calm, logical manner. State your boundaries. "I won't be in an open marriage." Her acts - by any normal measurement amounts to engaging in a one-sided open marriage - i think they call those affairs - whether physical or not.

Can't remember if I've already suggested the books - if i haven't here they are:

No More Mr Nice Guy
Hold on to your NUTZ
Married Man Sex Life Primer

Best thing I did for my marriage was the manning up part where it helped her feel secure in the marriage.

Evaluate your marriage and figure out if there are any behaviors that you have that would make her feel less secure. Let her know what those are, if you've figured it out and what you will do to help her feel secure. 

Don't make this a rug sweep - this is just connecting to her as your W to help her understand that you want the marriage to succeed and you will work your part - but to help her understand that she needs to do the heavy lifting required to regain the trust of the marriage.


----------



## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> stop blaming yourself
> 
> were you perfect?
> 
> no, none of us are
> 
> but you didn't force your wife into an affair


No...I know that. I'm not blaming myself for that. I'm blaming myself for us winding up in crisis mode a year ago...and not doing enough to fix it (assuming that was even possible.) I'm blaming myself for responding to her bitterness with even more bitterness, responding to her pulling away...by pulling away as well. Wish I'd known about this site, about 5 years ago.


----------



## Almostrecovered

DailyGrind said:


> No...I know that. I'm not blaming myself for that. I'm blaming myself for us winding up in crisis mode a year ago...and not doing enough to fix it (assuming that was even possible.) I'm blaming myself for responding to her bitterness with even more bitterness, responding to her pulling away...by pulling away as well. Wish I'd known about this site, about 5 years ago.



I'm in the middle of playing catch up on this thread (I was away last week and only glanced at certain threads on the phone), but all that stuff is equal blame back then and while it does contribute to the current strife it most certainly needs to be addressed only after the affair is over and your wife accepts 100% of the blame for the affair.


----------



## Halien

DailyGrind said:


> Which is what kills me. I know there is no one I ever worked harder for, in the past. And yet....I somehow didn't work hard enough in the RIGHT ways. Stupidity, ignorance, stubborness.....doesn't matter. In the end...it may have all just been wasted time/breath/effort/years! I would do ANYTHING to have done it better. But the only way to have done that, is if she had EVER opened up to me...and just let me know her issues. Instead, she harbored them, and let them fester. :scratchhead:


DG, because you blame yourself so much, you paint a picture that makes it seem like this woman has strongly disliked you for a long time. But you are old enough to know that it is rarely as simple as that. This woman had children with you. There had to be some basic awareness within her that she loved you in order to resist what she has done for so long. Also, its possible that there is self awareness that some of these issues are her own.

Its time to think about it based only on what will work, what will push her away, and what might work. Break everything down in this way.

You already know that pleading with her won't work. Its simply a turnoff when one foot is out the door. Challenging her repeatedly isn't working, at least in the context of what you are doing. The others are offering ways to catch her. You have to find a way to get this done, in my opinion. 

At the same time, I think she needs to really know the things you expressed above. You would do ANYTHING to make it work. To be honest, it might not help. But it'll certainly keep her aware of your intentions, if you communicate it as something that you expect to happen, instead of begging.

The goal is to try to defeat the fog. To defeat the OM's pull on her. The plan has to include knowing what is really going on, and confidently assuring her that you can be a powerful alternative. Can't know if it will work, but you'll know that you didn't try if you don't make the attempt.


----------



## Almostrecovered

rereading everything I have to ask, why don't you just hand the emails to the OMW at the dance class (just as you're leaving)? If they're right in front of her she can't deny what was said.


----------



## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> rereading everything I have to ask, why don't you just hand the emails to the OMW at the dance class (just as you're leaving)? If they're right in front of her she can't deny what was said.


I think I jumped too soon. Too much plausible denial. Plus...I didn't expect her there. OM has always brought their kid. They changed up, this week. I've posted pretty much what led me to go into panic mode. But here it is again....after watching the light banter all week.....Dday started/ended with these emails:



: Them said:


> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Shark"
> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 08:36 PM
> To: Wife
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> 
> Gym sometime tomorrow. Day off for me. Ttyl
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wife
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 07:06 PM
> To: Shark
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> 
> That's great. Carolyn is doing really well too especially with reading. Its fun walking on egg shells huh? Gotta go. chat with u tomorrow.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Shark"
> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 00:01:52
> To: Wife
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> 
> Part of it. She was told that she is going in advanced class in reading and math. Teacher said she was shocked at how smart she is.
> 
> 6 weeks. Will set one aside for you.
> 
> Have to be there. But after yelling at boss and him wanting me to bust into flames, may have to watch tardiness.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wife
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 06:49 PM
> To: Shark
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> 
> Is that a good conference reward? Mine went well. I was worried about Emily's but all is well. We were out dropping off cookies earlier.
> 6 weeks is nice!! And all the government holidays? I'm turning green here . I didn't realize you haad to be there so early.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Shark"
> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:51:44
> To: Wife
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> 
> Famous daves with the wee one. She is such a s-l-o-w eater.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wife
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 04:02 PM
> To: Shark
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> 
> what time do you normally go to work? I wish I didn't have such a long commute. I can occasionaly take time off, but I have to manage my days because even though i've carried over time I can only take 3 1/2 weeks each year. I'm usually the one taking care of the kids in evenings so I know what you mean.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Shark"
> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 20:44:49
> To: Wife
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> 
> I have the luxury of a lot of leave. I can take time if needed. Mornings are free but I have to be at work so early. As for time it is a dad filled evening at our house
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wife
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 03:41 PM
> To: Shark
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> 
> free time is a thing of the past right? unfortunately my free time is usually in the morning, other times that I have to myself are actually with kids in evenings. How about you?
> ------Original Message------
> From: Shark
> To: 'Wife
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> Sent: Nov 3, 2011 4:01 PM
> 
> So when do you have free time. Ha ha
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wife
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 01:40 PM
> To: Shark
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> 
> I'm ok. Me too. I don't think it would make things worse. Things have deteriorated over the years so this isn't new.
> ------Original Message------
> From: Shark
> To: 'Wife
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> Sent: Nov 3, 2011 9:34 AM
> 
> I like 'em. They are great.
> 
> Hope you are doing better. Want to do more for/with you but do not want to make situation worse
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wife
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 08:05 AM
> To: Shark
> Subject: Re: It seems that...
> 
> Yes, my kids are little animals haha


I confronted because I was petrified her next response would be "Oh..maybe I'll take off too." All the while she is writing these late afternoon to evening posts....she is talking to me about us getting counseling (which I requested earlier in the week), and stuff we would be doing together that weekend.


----------



## DailyGrind

I see there is a back and forth of texts between this OMW's phone, and my wife...this morning. No doubt due to my calling the phone, last night.


----------



## Shaggy

It could also be from your confrontation this morning. First rule of bringing paranoid: don't get paranoid.

Second rule: do not over think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Shaggy said:


> It could also be from your confrontation this morning. First rule of bringing paranoid: don't get paranoid.
> 
> Second rule: do not over think.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey...even a paranoid can have people against him.


----------



## Shaggy

DailyGrind said:


> Hey...even a paranoid can have people against him.


Everyone does! But the truely professional dont let it worry them. Did James Bond take time to look behind him? Nope, he was too busy moving forward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

I've read the texts again in the proper order this time (duh). I am not seeing what you are upset about. What am I missing?

I would be aggravated that OM is getting these texts but not me. Does she text you during the day. Do you text her love messages?
My wife calls it texting love words.

My thought is to start acting like you love her again and be the better man. Also have you two completely stopped dating.

It also sounds like (including previous threads) that finances have put a huge strain on your relationship. Her business failing is bound to have affected her more than you know. I bet she thinks you blame her for the financial mess. 

I have had experience getting hot over this kind of thing. I gave a whole crew pay raises one time and it had the opposite effect on morale. Money woes can cause irrational behavior.

One thing she pointed out was that things had been getting worse for several years. It seems to me if they were having an affair she would have made it sound a lot worse.

I guess I am going to have to reread this thread.


----------



## Chaparral

I would also point out from the previous thread, from what I read, missing the nightly 30 min together was as much or more your fault.
I don't think you took it nearly serious enough. YOU have to be the leader of your family and the best way to lead is by example.

One thing that I find competely off the wall is you going to bed at 1:00 am and your wife at nine. You need to concede on this one at least most nights. 

You have to many excuses and not enough answers.


----------



## Arnold

IMO. there is plenty to be concerned about with that type of text going back and forth. These two are very "chummy" and talk about their marital issues. It is completely inappropriate , IMO.


----------



## Arnold

DailyGrind said:


> Which is what kills me. I know there is no one I ever worked harder for, in the past. And yet....I somehow didn't work hard enough in the RIGHT ways. Stupidity, ignorance, stubborness.....doesn't matter. In the end...it may have all just been wasted time/breath/effort/years! I would do ANYTHING to have done it better. But the only way to have done that, is if she had EVER opened up to me...and just let me know her issues. Instead, she harbored them, and let them fester. :scratchhead:



She abdicated her responsibility and, instead, chose the easy route:festering resentment, where she made you the villian. I think if she opened up, she would have been forced to look at her own deficiencies and her role in the marriage's decline.
It was much more appealing to her to simply make you the villian.


----------



## Chaparral

Arnold said:


> She abdicated her responsibility and, instead, chose the easy route:festering resentment, where she made you the villian. I think if she opened up, she would have been forced to look at her own deficiencies and her role in the marriage's decline.
> It was much more appealing to her to simply make you the villian.


Somewhere along the line there was a turning point. Something happened. DG did something that he can't put his finger on. Wife may not even remember what it was but it started a type of grudge. Maybe she can't tell him.

Wondering, since she even screams at kids, if its just the way her family raised her.


----------



## Arnold

chapparal said:


> Somewhere along the line there was a turning point. Something happened. DG did something that he can't put his finger on. Wife may not even remember what it was but it started a type of grudge. Maybe she can't tell him.
> 
> Wondering, since she even screams at kids, if its just the way her family raised her.


Maybe. But, it is also possible that she is disordered and has triggers that no one could discern would piss her off. Often, with the personality disordered, they have these weird perceptions of innocuous actions threatening or deeply offending them,
Infidelity is rampant among the disordered and it would not be unlikely that she has a personality disorder. She does seem to lack empathy, and that is a big clue.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I've read the texts again in the proper order this time (duh). I am not seeing what you are upset about. What am I missing?


No...she really never initiates calls/texts/emails to me. I used to email her love stuff all the time....until she went dark on me. I know....probably wrong response....but, once I realized all my hugs/kisses/love gestures garnered null (or even negative) responses from her.....I stopped. I fully expected her to react "what's up???!!" But she never did....so....I realized she didn't want the attention. Hence....hole in ground...meet my head!

You didn't find it inappropriate that she is initiating a conversation with some man about when their free time is (mornings), including the need to take personal time from work to get together? I know there is no smoking gun here.....and I didn't really consider it an affair (per se)...but she clearly was emotionally reaching out to this guy. She, as it turns out, scheduled two morning workouts with this guy...not telling me. And CLEARLY her immediate response of "we never would have gone through with it"....implied she had more in mind, than coffee. Or am I crazy?

Thanks.


----------



## Chaparral

"Hope you are doing better. Want to do more for/with you but do not want to make situation worse"

You're right


----------



## Chaparral

Any news? Don't understand why you haven't done more to contact OMW. Why do you think its not OM using OMW's phone?


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Somewhere along the line there was a turning point. Something happened. DG did something that he can't put his finger on. Wife may not even remember what it was but it started a type of grudge. Maybe she can't tell him.
> 
> Wondering, since she even screams at kids, if its just the way her family raised her.


When I confronted her, she told me this one thing for a reason for her going dark. It is kind of embarrassing...but...what the heck...you guys don't know me.... 

I used to have a skin tag (slight mole) on my...uh....organ...if you get me. When we first met (or rather when she and "organ" first met), she asked me about it. I told her it was a mole I've had for years (true.) Well...just before she went cold on me (according to her) she noticed it was gone....and jumped to some WILD assumption that I had lied to her about it. ??!!

I said to her...."let me get this straight". I've had this mole thing for EIGHT years of our marriage....and one day it's gone...and you come up with 'He LIED??!!' What the hell did you think it was, then??! I mean....did you suddenly get something...and are accusing ME of it??" She said no.....but it is completely whacked. In truth...it just goes to show how INFREQUENT we were having sex. I honestly (when she brought this up last week) did NOT remember what happened to that thing (it's been over 2 years since then)....but....I dimly remember realizing it was a "skin tag", not a mole (thank you internet).....and cut it off. It had been so long.....I didn't even remember, at first, that I'd ever had one. So, I'm like....THAT is what bothered you so much??? I know this can't be it....or all of it....but ...WTF? That's how disfunctionaly our communicating is. WHY wouldn't she ask me THEN???


----------



## Chaparral

I think the best thing is to find good indvidual counseling plus MC. Both of you were abused and there are probably issues. Especially since she kept themsecret from you.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Ha, you're not the only one with the embarrassing skin tags. I just recently got a skin tag in my butt (right on the crack!), been almost embarrassed to ask the doc to cut it off, but I will at my next appointment


----------



## Initfortheduration

Don't wait, don't let the dust settle. Grab her (figuratively) and get to a dermatologist. Have him/her explain how transitory skin tags and moles are. I had a mole on my neck. It had been there as long as I can remember. I got a sunburn and after I wore a particular shirt it irritated it and it started to protrude more. Eventually it was almost hanging by a thread. The next it was gone.

Here is my story of miscommunication and my son. It was about eight years ago. We were having a barbeque, and I don't know how the subject came up, but apparently my son believed that I was forced to marry his mother because she was pregnant. I said "WHAT?" (His mother and I were married in March of 80' and my son was born in June of 81'). I said his mom was different, but not so different that she would actually have a 16 month gestation period. I asked him how long he thought this. He said always. My wife, daughter and I were completely rolling on the floor laughing. My son does complex math formulas for graphics design and media. I guess they didn't teach the old math. You know, addition and subtraction, or he fell asleep in health class. What a maroon.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Ive read that you can actually strangle the skin tags (take dental floss and bind them), it can cause an infection tho


----------



## Initfortheduration

Well I hope you are not looking for volunteers. Just use a couple of mirrors.


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## Almostrecovered

damn...


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## Initfortheduration

Edit


----------



## Chaparral

blackberry gps tracking software - Bing

You need more detective work GPS, VAR


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> blackberry gps tracking software - Bing
> 
> You need more detective work GPS, VAR


I installed eblaster, last night. Don't feel comfortable doing it....but...I guess it's come to this.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Any news? Don't understand why you haven't done more to contact OMW. Why do you think its not OM using OMW's phone?


Well...the text messaging between that new number, and wife's ...if it continues...will show up on the tracking system. I'll be able to see then, if this is him, or not. And..as you mentioned earlier....you don't see a HUGE amount of concern in the emails. I suspect the situation is somewhere in the middle...
A) something WAS potentially happening....AND....
B) I'm a paranoid kook.

Given the off chance I might be a TOTAL paranoid kook...I'll hold off on OMW, until I can confirm who is on the other end of those texts.


----------



## MrQuatto

DailyGrind said:


> Difference is....your wife was at least still in love with you. Mine lost feelings for me years ago...and would never tell me why. I know there wasn't an affair then. She harbors incredible resentment for me...and the few examples she gives me are so petty....and clearly misunderstood....i can't believe they are even issues. But they are....and they are her feelings...so I have to accept them as such, and deal with them.


DG, I have not commented up to now but I have been following your thread. The above quote is quite telling. IF this is in fact the tructh, that your wife has no love left, then why continue on with all of this?

If the love is gone, it will only be a matter of time before it ends. Either with infidelity or just moving on. So why not take that bull by the horns and start the proceedings?

At the worst, it will end a marriage that seems to be ending anyway and at the best, it just might be the wake up call she needs.

Just my $02.

Q~


----------



## DailyGrind

MrQuatto said:


> DG, I have not commented up to now but I have been following your thread. The above quote is quite telling. IF this is in fact the tructh, that your wife has no love left, then why continue on with all of this?
> 
> If the love is gone, it will only be a matter of time before it ends. Either with infidelity or just moving on. So why not take that bull by the horns and start the proceedings?
> 
> At the worst, it will end a marriage that seems to be ending anyway and at the best, it just might be the wake up call she needs.
> 
> Just my $02.
> 
> Q~


I hear what you are saying. I DO truly love her. AND..we have two beautiful children that I have so many plans for. I couldn't dream of not giving this a chance....cause I really believe there "could" be some fairy-tale ending here. But, in the end...if all we have to look forward to...is more of the same (last two years)...your take is clearly the way to go.

Thanks.


----------



## Chaparral

I think you need to make clear in MC that if your wife doesn't make the effort it will be time to move on.

On the one hand, like you said, she is the one who wanted to go back to marriage counseling this time. It even crossed my mind that OM has suggested this. On the other hand, since financisl problems are almost licked she may just be biding her time to file papers. I would certainly ask her to get her reaction.

Sure do hope you can work it out. One thing I keep hearing about is bad or one sided counselors so don't be afraid to pull the plug if you see things going awry. Did your wife pick the counselor and who did she get the name from? Watch for a set up.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I think you need to make clear in MC that if your wife doesn't make the effort it will be time to move on.
> 
> On the one hand, like you said, she is the one who wanted to go back to marriage counseling this time. It even crossed my mind that OM has suggested this. On the other hand, since financisl problems are almost licked she may just be biding her time to file papers. I would certainly ask her to get her reaction.
> 
> Sure do hope you can work it out. One thing I keep hearing about is bad or one sided counselors so don't be afraid to pull the plug if you see things going awry. Did your wife pick the counselor and who did she get the name from? Watch for a set up.


Actually...I requested the counseling (both times.) The only thing that changed with her....she was emailing this shark (before Dday) that she didn't see the point of counseling. We'd tried it, and it "didn't, nor will it, work." That night...I told her we needed counseling to try to learn to communicate. She again emailed shark that "we might try to talk about it. I know I said it wouldn't work...but maybe it will help us keep the peace." Dday (three days later), she admitted we needed someone to help us....and so far, she appears to be preparing to do this. Tomorrow is our appointment. I picked the counselor. This counselor practices Imago Therapy (Couples Therapy and Workshops from Imago Relationships Intnl). Don't know if this is better than a "normal" therapist...but the concept seems more focused on bringing love back to couples...than dwelling too much on the past. We'll see if that helps. She's more expensive....but .....I'll figure something out.


----------



## DailyGrind

Update:

Had our first MC session yesterday afternoon. Obviously, we didn't get too in-depth on much. And, it was a bit hard to hear she doesn't know MC will do any good.
But...the counselor had asked us to prepare a list of goals for our sessions. It was encouraging that we both listed "developing a stable home atmosphere for our children" as a goal. The topic of the possible EA came up. She tried dismissing it...claiming it was nothing...and I was blowing it out of proportion. I told her we really needed to clear the air on this issue, with some honesty. When I highlighted some of the things said in the emails...she seemed to back down a bit. But still, it is clear she doesn't want to admit anything was progressing there. The therapist also called her out on it...that opening up to other sex on marital issues, and expressing emotional connections (especially when both sides are doing it)...is a clear recipe for an affair. She called us both out to eliminate all exit strategies, for now. She appears to be committed to giving this a shot...so ...we'll see. We have another session scheduled for next weekend. 

We had a pseudo-date night Friday night. We went to see Pauly Shore at the comedy club, with two other couples. We got along okay. We struggle with conversation, right now. But, it was wonderful seeing her laughing, and not negative..for a change.


----------



## Hoosier

DG: following your thread, so sorry for your problems. Are you sure your wife and my x are not the same person? Your story, of how your wife never told you of problems, never discussed with you concerns, just internalized the problems letting them fester is exactly what happened to me. When I discovered the A she moved out and in with the OM that very day, filed for divorce the next. I went thru a horrible time with guilt, what I could have done, what I didnt do during the marriage, how I hid my head in the sand. Now 120 days out of DDay I still have nagging thoughts of these failures. But and it is a big But, you cannot be held responsible for not knowing what was not told to you! She has a responsibility to express her needs, concerns. You are not a mind reader. You cannot change the past, only work hard for the future. Let the guilt go, do what you can. My x currently hates my guts, has rewritten the history of our marriage to anyone that will listen. That is because of who she is, not what I have ever done, same for you. Have hope for at least she is attending counseling. But by all means take care of yourself and your kids, good luck to you.


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## Chaparral

Whew, always waiting for another shoe to drop on this thread.

Sounds like s decent start. If you have the time I wish you would walk us through your counseling with some details. Having never been in any kind of counseling this would be great. Also, it would be nice if others that are familiar with counseling could comment on how yours is going.

I keep thinking your wife has trust issues with you and that is the root of her anger and distance.

Wishing your family all the success in the world!


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Whew, always waiting for another shoe to drop on this thread.


 



chapparal said:


> I keep thinking your wife has trust issues with you and that is the root of her anger and distance.


Interesting comment. Mind me asking what gives you this thought?



chapparal said:


> Wishing your family all the success in the world!


Many Thanks!


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Sounds like s decent start. If you have the time I wish you would walk us through your counseling with some details. Having never been in any kind of counseling this would be great. Also, it would be nice if others that are familiar with counseling could comment on how yours is going.


I sure will. This one was more administrative, and a simple temperature gauge of where we are. She asked us for our goals for counseling..and asked us to look at each other and give three things we were appreciative of, from the other. Both of us could only come up with two, at the moment.

At the end, we were to give a positive to each other. My positive was that I am committed to this process, committed to understanding her...and (maybe for the first time) committed to listening to her, without judgement or defensive comments...so that she can truly share with me her issues.

I think the next session will start getting into communication tools, and giving us assignments for building positive experiences.


----------



## DailyGrind

UPDATE:

Well...it's been almost a month since my last post. Thought I'd update everyone. Wife and I have been to two joint counseling sessions, and one (each) individual...with our conselor. The counselor requested the individual sessions with us because W simply does not talk. Counselor asked me if this was typical. Told her..hell yeah...since day one. She NEVER talks about deep or personal stuff. She just never shares her days, thoughts, needs, etc. So, W had first session. I went to mine on Saturday. Counselor asked me if W talked to me about her session. Of course..answer is NO. Counselor seemed surprised, as W apparently couldn't STOP talking during her session. Counselor confirmed that wife has big resentment walls built up. She isn't sure she can move forward. Odd thing (in my mind) is that Counselor hasn't really started any communication tools with us. We leave the sessions...and I don't know if we are supposed to be trying to talk on our own?? We haven't been given any assignments...anything. It's a little disappointing.

It seems to me that W and I are getting along a teeny bit better. As far as I can tell...there has been no contact with OM. However.....I don't know if I am paranoid (actually, I do...I AM paranoid)....but there have been a couple things setting me off:
Two Sundays ago...she poured her morning coffee...grabbed her grocery coupons...and proceeded to go to the bathroom for nearly an hour. SOOOOOO not like her. She is sooo finicky...the mere idea of ANYTHING ingested, in the same area where there might be smells....sends her into eebie-geebies. And...an hour in the bathroom....not like her at all. Of course, I was triggered cause that was the bathroom she was texting OM from, while pretending to go. Two hours later....she was BACK in the bathroom for another long stint. I have logger on her cell phone ...so I know nothing was going on there. 

BUT.....just seems to me that phone has gotten eerily quiet. I've got the nagging thoughts that there might be another phone. Believe me...I've looked everywhere...but can't find one. So....I drop a VAR in her car. Nothing for days. Suddenly, yesterday....she is spending her whole car ride home, talking on a phone (and not her normal one.) She appears to be talking to someone about work related stuff...but VERY difficult to hear (radio is too loud.) SO....it appears there is another phone. I just can't figure out where it came from...or where it is. So...I don't know where to go from here. So, now....my head is just swimming. I'm so damn paranoid....I came within moments of buying a DNA test for my youngest daughter. I have every wild thought going through my head, these days. I keep flitting from "fight for the marriage" to "f-it...just walk away and start the healing...is this even worth it?"


----------



## Shaggy

Find the other phone and you'll find the Affair. Clearly she knows your watching the main phone so she's gone underground.

The phone is likely in her car. Look in the trunk by the spare tire.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

If you have phone records, check up with the one she made on the drive.(Can you get the time on the var?) If they don't match, she is on a different phone. Yeah, she knows how you snoop and looks like this is going underground. And where are you typing this from? Do you think she might have found you on the forum?


----------



## Dadof3

I would look under the dashboard / center console area, carpet too. its got to be hidden somewhere clever but easy to access. 

My gut instinct says she's underground now. maybe you need a hidden cam in car / bathroom to follow. 

The noise level is designed to foil your VAR. I'm sure she knows its in there and is working around it being there, hence the noise level during her conversation. maybe if you had a noise filtering program, you could isolate her voice from the background - could defeat the loud stereo designed to throw your VAR off.

The counseling "homework" where she's supposed to be talking to you and isn't - its cause she isn't invested in your relationship anymore. she's biding her time.

Sorry to hear of this.


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> If you have phone records, check up with the one she made on the drive.(Can you get the time on the var?) If they don't match, she is on a different phone. Yeah, she knows how you snoop and looks like this is going underground. And where are you typing this from? *Do you think she might have found you on the forum?*


Don't know how she could. I'm typing from my work laptop. No way she could get into that.

I'll keep trying the VAR in the car....see if I can find a better place for it, that the radio isn't so loud. I just wouldn't know how she could get a new phone. I do all the bills, and nothing has come through unusual. I did check the phone records....no calls (and certainly not one for an hour....during her ride home.) So..it IS another phone. Odd thing is...if this was just work related....why not use her own phone? Why an alternate. Makes me wonder if there isn't some sort of company phone she might have borrowed. Who knows. Clearly, I can't ask her.


----------



## Shaggy

She is making it easy to catch her however. You can use a hiiden cam in the bath or car and see where the phone is if you must. Though I'd suggest the car before the bath.

It' likely went dark for a while when they thought you were on to them, but they got tired of no contact so he got her a phone..now they'll start using it more and more and get sloppy. The more she uses it the more convenient to access is where she will keep it. Not to mention its need to recharge. Look for the charger in the car or garage.

The fact that she tok it underground show this isn't just friends, and it isn't over. If you could successfully record her, it would be evidence to give the OMW
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

Pull the fuse or rig the radio so it doesn't work. She using the back round noice to cover the convo.

Watch her routine...a route she takes as she exits the car until she gets inside. There my be an out side place, like in the garage.
I would think its most likely stashed in the car.

Are you tracking her through GPS?


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> The counseling "homework" where she's supposed to be talking to you and isn't - its cause she isn't invested in your relationship anymore. she's biding her time.
> 
> Sorry to hear of this.


Well...that's my issue....we haven't been given any homework. No assignments, or guidance of any kind. I'll ask for some at the next session.


----------



## DailyGrind

the guy said:


> Pull the fuse or rig the radio so it doesn't work. She using the back round noice to cover the convo.
> 
> Watch her routine...a route she takes as she exits the car until she gets inside. There my be an out side place, like in the garage.
> I would think its most likely stashed in the car.
> 
> Are you tracking her through GPS?


I have tracking on her phone. It gives me 30 minute updates where she is.


----------



## Shaggy

Once they establish a time to chat, they will stick to it so you have the when narrowed down.mif it becomes routine, try calling her regular phone during that time and see if you pick the ring up as part of her conversation recording. This will let you verify the time of the recording.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

That sucks, she might leave the "good" phone at work while she goes out to "lunch".

Invest in tracking the car. And yes pen cam time....

Have you searched the car...what about the radio dampering idea?


----------



## DailyGrind

the guy said:


> That sucks, she might leave the "good" phone at work while she goes out to "lunch".
> 
> Invest in tracking the car. And yes pen cam time....
> 
> Have you searched the car...what about the radio dampering idea?


Well...I know the call from yesterday was work related. I don't see it being the OM....so no reason to try and mask the call. Pen cam, huh?...hmmmm.


----------



## Dadof3

Wouldn't be so sure about OM and work related. With what you've said so far - I think there is a STRONG correlation. Specially cause the call was on a phone with which you are not aware of. At the minimum, they are conversing on this "work" phone, if not texting each other.


----------



## Shaggy

I don't men to get all paranoid...but... Coud she be connecting with someone at work?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Shaggy said:


> I don't men to get all paranoid...but... Coud she be connecting with someone at work?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Trust me....I was worried about that two years ago. But workers are mostly women. Her boss is male, but the SIL of the 75 yo owner....who works every day. Boss would have to be a complete MORON to screw that up. Plus, boss and owner are fairly devote Jewish...so, that would be a reach for her.

No...I don't think that particular call was an issue. What WAS and issue, is that it revealed another phone...which would only be needed if there was some contact with someone.


----------



## Dadof3

Well - maybe a well placed call to the receptionist of where she works and let them know you are updating your contact list and needed to add her work cell number as you lost the number written on a small paper she gave you.


----------



## the guy

The thing here is some will say is all this really worth it, well i say before ai pull the trigger, I want to make dam sure its for a valid reason and not curcumstancial...

Get the pen cams and verify or hire a PI. This is a huge red flag that needs to be either dismissed or confirmed with regard to pulling the trigger on divorce.


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## warlock07

I think the pen cam is an excessive breach. You would rather divorce before you become that person.

DG, could it be that she used the other phone for a work related stuff. So it can be a new guy at work that you still don't know about(Since it is a personal number but still talked about work.)

And don't think she cannot snoop on you. You are doing it fine, no reason why she cannot if she intends to. See if you can entrap her.


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## Chaparral

Sure doesn't look good , best of luck.


----------



## DailyGrind

I'm holding out hope that the phone used, was some sort of loaner from her work...so she could respond to whomever she was talking to (on her ride home.) The alternative is a straight road to divorce....which I'm trying to avoid. I replaced the VAR, hopefully in a better place. If I keep getting conversations on it.....well.....I'll just HAVE to figure out where it is being hidden. I looked all around the car, and couldn't find it. So, I figured she brought it in with her. But couldn't find it inside either.


----------



## Dadof3

If I were to take a work call on the road - which I do - I always turn the radio off. Not down, off. I turn the fan to the heat / AC almost all the way off too.


----------



## kenmoore14217

*First time on here dg. I don't think you are being paranoid at all, honestly I think your gut is telling you the truth as unfortunate as that may be. Good luck*


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> If I were to take a work call on the road - which I do - I always turn the radio off. Not down, off. I turn the fan to the heat / AC almost all the way off too.


Well...I had the VAR in the door map holder. Right next to that is a speaker for the radio. So...maybe it was turned down. Not sure. Although, the radio didn't sound any louder during the call...then it did in her call-less drive IN to work.

The one other thing I was wondering was if she was giving a ride to someone, from work...and the VAR just wasn't picking up the other person's voice. Seems unlikely...but....without additional information, hard to say. Unfortunately, the VAR ran out of space, before the end.


----------



## SadSamIAm

The big red flag to me was the very long bathroom stops. Nobody goes to the bathroom for one or two hours. I would be watching her closely after leaving the bathroom to see where she goes. Might give you an idea as to where she might be hiding a new phone.


----------



## DailyGrind

SadSamIAm said:


> The big red flag to me was the very long bathroom stops. Nobody goes to the bathroom for one or two hours. I would be watching her closely after leaving the bathroom to see where she goes. Might give you an idea as to where she might be hiding a new phone.


Yeah...extremely odd for her. On her second trip (at least 20 minutes, after I noticed her in there)....I lay down on the bed and waited for her to come out. I didn't see anything in her hands (I think she was wearing sweats, so no pockets.) I searched the entire bathroom, but couldn't find anything. Maybe THAT time was the real trip...and the first one was something other....don't know. OR...my mind could just be completely wigging out on me. I have to see what else comes up on that VAR. I only placed it 3-4 times before this week.....and they came up nothing. I was actually shocked when I started hearing her voice (over the radio sounds). The call was going on a whole hour.


----------



## Dadof3

As I said, I think it's common courtesy to give your caller a reasonable (that makes you still safe) amount of attention if you are talking while driving (it would be very distracting to say the least) and turn off music / radio and turn down the fan - if its on.

One other thought. Does your wife own a blue tooth headset or ear piece? She may never have to pull the phone out of its hiding place, except for to charge it. Most newer blue tooth technology has a range of 30 feet or so, so she may do it that way. Does her car support hands free talking (blue tooth tech too)? A blue tooth can also be paired with multiple phones.


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> As I said, I think it's common courtesy to give your caller your full attention if you are talking while driving (it would be very distracting to say the least) and turn off music / radio and turn down the fan - if its on.
> 
> One other thought. Does your wife own a blue tooth headset or ear piece? She may never have to pull the phone out of its hiding place, except for to charge it. Most newer blue tooth technology has a range of 30 feet or so, so she may do it that way. Does her car support hands free talking (blue tooth tech too)?


Well...she's not the most technically savy...so I would not think she'd even know how to pair the headset. That being said...I wouldn't have thought she'd be comfortable buying a new PHONE...so, I guess anything is possible. To add to that, I can't believe she would drive with the phone to her ear for a whole hour. She pretty much NEVER talks on her cell for anything more than a couple minutes. That is what was making me wonder if she was giving someone a ride...and the VAR just didn't pick up the other voice. I can't believe it wouldn't have...but hard to say. But, no...the car does not support it.


----------



## warlock07

Are these VARS identifiable? Aren't they easy to recognize?


----------



## WhereAmI

Does she have anything like Epsom salts in the bathroom? Bath stuff that she thinks you'd never use? I could see putting a phone in a ziplock bag and storing it there. Or putting it inside folded towels that are for guests only.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

I guess I'll have to look harder.


----------



## warlock07

What kind of life is this? This limbo is hell


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> What kind of life is this? This limbo is hell


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


----------



## warlock07

DG can you afford a PI?


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> DG can you afford a PI?


No...not at this point. Why? Would one be able to definitively determine there is another phone? My biggest worry is that she is communicating with someone through her work email. I don't necessarily think it is the OM...as I exposed to his wife. Although the OMW didn't exactly openly endorse my accusation....she is suddenly the one dropping off their kid, and watching, during DD's dance class on Wed nights. Before exposure, he was the only one doing that. So...I think she is being vigilant, in spite of telling me basically I was nuts. So...I THINK OM is out of the picture. But then...who knows...and, there might be another OM out there. Hell....I'm so paranoid these days, I'm sorely tempted to have my youngest DD DNA tested.


----------



## warlock07

have it done. It is worth the mental peace. Also I would like to think that you are outed and your snooping isn't working. go deeper or use other methods.


----------



## Dadof3

Maybe if you have to charge it or get a small personal loan for a PI. The personal satisfaction of knowing will be more than worth the small price of knowing for sure.

Does your youngest DD not have any resemblance to your side of the family? If so - just do it. You need the peace that would come from knowing one way or the other. 

Your W has proven a very capable liar. She doesn't appear to be doing anything to reverse that impression.


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> Maybe if you have to charge it or get a small personal loan for a PI. The personal satisfaction of knowing will be more than worth the small price of knowing for sure.
> 
> Does your youngest DD not have any resemblance to your side of the family? If so - just do it. You need the peace that would come from knowing one way or the other.
> 
> Your W has proven a very capable liar. She doesn't appear to be doing anything to reverse that impression.


My first DD definitely has my personality, and I can see my features in her face. Second DD is definitely different. According to my wife, she looks a LOT like she did, at same age (Blue eyes, blond hair.) BUT...W is brown hair...and DD2 definitely has different facial features/personality. My mom, over the Thanksgiving visit...actually made the comment that DD2 doesn't really resemble either one of us. A lOT of my issues with W all began around the time of DD2's birth. I never seriously questioned it...but something has always tickled the back of my mind....never really knew what. 

I tell you what....just THINKING about such things makes me doubt the whole world. If it is even conceivable that my wife is carrying an A to deep cover; it would simply rock my entire world. My entire belief system would be shattered.


----------



## warlock07

just have it done today. i think your mother was hinting at it.


----------



## Dadof3

Yea - definitely don't discount that tickle at the back of the mind. its there for a reason. 

And come to think - if your W and OM conceived your DD2 - think of the dance drop offs as having a shared purpose other than the obvious.


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> Yea - definitely don't discount that tickle at the back of the mind. its there for a reason.
> 
> And come to think - if your W and OM conceived your DD2 - think of the dance drop offs as having a shared purpose other than the obvious.


Well...there's no way she knew this guy 6 years ago. But....maybe there was someone else. I was looking for the phone in W's purse, last night. Didn't find it...but DID find a picture of some little boy, I don't recognize. WTF?? Looked like a school wallet sized picture. No one else on her side of the family has kids....so......who??? Just another innocuous tidbit. Could be some completely random, explainable thing...but...in my current mindset.....brain just totally jumps the track!


----------



## Dadof3

Find the funds to get a PI. donate blood plasma, take out a CC, or personal line of credit. 

You need to do this for your piece of mind. The money will be worth it whether or not something is going on or not. Its a small price to pay for piece of mind. Get DD2 DNA tested. that might be enough, if you don't want to go the PI route.


----------



## ShootMePlz!

What is your DD2's blood type? Is it the same as the other DD?


----------



## DailyGrind

ShootMePlz! said:


> What is your DD2's blood type? Is it the same as the other DD?


Good question. I just checked all the medical records I had on them.....none of them say their blood type. I'll have to call their doctor tomorrow.

I just listened to the VAR from today. I had moved it to under the passenger seat. Still a LOT of road noise, and radio. There were a couple times I thought I heard her talking, in the background....but could have been cussing other drivers, for all I know. I pulled the fuse on the radio...and reset the VAR. Looked all over the car. If she has it...she has to be bringing it in with her. I've looked all over, but can't find it. Try the VAR again tomorrow WITHOUT radio. I'll have to get some velcro and mount it up under the dash....over the weekend when I'm "fixing her radio" for her. 

MAN...is all this worry, sneakiness, angst even worth it??!!


----------



## DailyGrind

Having a VERY bad day, emotionally, right now. I guess it is hitting me that if THIS is what we have stooped to (and I don't know for sure yet....secret phone, sneakiness, cheating)....just WOW! 

My state requires a two year separation before divorce is final. We can't afford for either one of us to move out, until maybe March. Meaning...I can START the process...but the clock won't begin ticking until "maybe" March. Meanwhile...someone I'd have to keep it together for a whole 3 1/2 months??!!! I'm jumping at every shadow NOW, as it is.


----------



## Lovebug501

Two YEARS?!? Holy cow!!

DG - I have been reading your thread for that last couple months... and frankly - if she's still cheating, who cares what she can afford or not? She needs to move out. Her OM can support her.

I took the bold step of moving out at the end of September (because my history with H proves that HE will never move out and if I wanted a true separation, I had to go). I quit paying the mortgage, got an apartment and said to hell with everything at the house. It's about to be foreclosed upon if it doesn't sell soon - but frankly, I don't care. I can live in an apartment and be just fine. I don't NEED a big fancy house. I NEED to know that the person sleeping next to me hasn't been hooking up with someone earlier that day. (I also have 2 children - 2 and 4.)

You'd be surprised what you or she can afford when forced to do so. I don't have a lot of the luxuries that other people have, but I have everything I need and so do my children.


----------



## Shaggy

So the possibility here is that DD2 was from an affair 6 yrs ago, and you've not suspected her having one, except for a general break down in the marriage and her feelings from then on.

Do the DNA test, that'll put that paranoia to rest. It's cheap and easy and it will resolve that question once and for all.


----------



## JustaJerk

Jesus... This thing is really taking a toll on your psyche. 

It seems that you'd rather just find out that she really _was_ cheating in order to consider yourself sane, and not some paraniod loon looking under every rock for evidence.


----------



## DailyGrind

Shaggy said:


> So the possibility here is that DD2 was from an affair 6 yrs ago, and you've not suspected her having one, except for a general break down in the marriage and her feelings from then on.


Yeah...essentially. The whole thing with DD2 is totally a direct result of the marriage deterioration....and me completely losing my emotional footing. I'm going off the deep end, and questioning everything. 

The two biggest emotional kickers, right now: 
A) possible secret phone in her car (I KNOW she was talking on a phone on Tuesday...not her real phone...and THINK she might have been yesterday....but radio was too loud to really hear much.) I pulled the fuse in her car this morning, for the radio...so...if she talks today, I should be able to hear better.
B) some deep dark brain-tickle wondering if DD2 is mine. She's never given me any concrete reason (before this year) to be concerned with infidelity....other than being sooooo damn distant emotionally. And her general anger/distance since pretty much DD2's birth.

I could be completely paranoid. Hopefully today will tell me definitively about a secret phone...and who she is talking to. Even if I can't find the phone...if I can get over the uncertainty about the phone...that is enough. I don't have to PROVE to her about the phone....I only have to prove to me. And there is absolutely NO valid reason, in my mind...that there would be another phone. Even if she got it from work...and it is for work reasons....there is no explanation for keeping it so secret.


----------



## DailyGrind

JustaJerk said:


> Jesus... This thing is really taking a toll on your psyche.
> 
> It seems that you'd rather just find out that she really _was_ cheating in order to consider yourself sane, and not some paraniod loon looking under every rock for evidence.


Exactly!!!! I absolutely need SOMETHING to emotionally ground me....be it bad or good. Right now...everything (emotionally) seems like vapor. NOTHING is real! I've never felt so helpless in all my life!


----------



## Dadof3

this is why I said - that it might be worth the peace of mind and allow you to kick back and let someone do the spy work - if you can find a way to fund a PI.


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> this is why I said - that it might be worth the peace of mind and allow you to kick back and let someone do the spy work - if you can find a way to fund a PI.


Unfortunately, right now ...just before Christmas....that just isn't possible.

So...question...assuming today's VAR comes back with a phone conversation (and not on her regular phone.) Further assume I STILL can't find this phone...but have convinced myself that a secret phone exists. Do I confront her...even though I don't have the evidence? Or just go straight to the lawyer...and never say anything to her?


----------



## Shaggy

I wonder if she was having an affair and got pregnant, and the OM upon learning of this dumped her and ran for the hills. Either he was married himself, or didn't want to be saddled with a kid.

So she's angry and depressed, but she stays because she needs the help. The feelings of anger etc get focused on you and she resents being trapped in the marriage, and possibly resents DD2 for being the thing that cost her the OM.

It could be the OM was a work? Has she been with the same company/line since before dd2?


----------



## Dadof3

One more angle to consider - if I may - it just occurred to me. 

I talk to myself out loud sometimes. Various things, work, personal life, when I'm driving to work (1 hr commute one way). 

Is it possible she could be doing that? I wouldn't turn down the radio and fan, if I was talking to myself.

Sorry to throw that wrench out there. Anyone else out there NOT talk to themselves out loud when alone?


----------



## warlock07

Too much speculation Shaggy. And this won't help DG.

FWIW, there might still be a simple explanation for all this. DG, maybe you should divorce regardless of the infidelity. This is taking a severe toll on you. I am not sure if you can trust her even this proves to be a false alarm


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> One more angle to consider - if I may - it just occurred to me.
> 
> I talk to myself out loud sometimes. Various things, work, personal life, when I'm driving to work (1 hr commute one way).
> 
> Is it possible she could be doing that? I wouldn't turn down the radio and fan, if I was talking to myself.
> 
> Sorry to throw that wrench out there. Anyone else out there NOT talk to themselves out loud when alone?


I was thinking that yesterday's may have been that.....or ghost recordings from the prior day, coming through on the VAR. But....the other day was CLEARLY a conversation. CLEARLY work related...she was giving advice on certain HR issues with certain employees. And also seemed kind of gossipy about work stuff. But...i wasn't able to hear complete sentences.

I WISH it were only her talking to herself.


----------



## Eli-Zor

DailyGrind said:


> I was thinking that yesterday's may have been that.....or ghost recordings from the prior day, coming through on the VAR. But....the other day was CLEARLY a conversation. CLEARLY work related...she was giving advice on certain HR issues with certain employees. And also seemed kind of gossipy about work stuff. But...i wasn't able to hear complete sentences.
> 
> I WISH it were only her talking to herself.


She then either had someone in the car or was on a phone. Start with the DNA test and persist with the VAR , try not to stress . A methodical careful approach will reveal the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Shaggy said:


> I wonder if she was having an affair and got pregnant, and the OM upon learning of this dumped her and ran for the hills. Either he was married himself, or didn't want to be saddled with a kid.
> 
> So she's angry and depressed, but she stays because she needs the help. The feelings of anger etc get focused on you and she resents being trapped in the marriage, and possibly resents DD2 for being the thing that cost her the OM.
> 
> It could be the OM was a work? Has she been with the same company/line since before dd2?


No...she wasn't working when we had DD2. She didn't go back to work until 3 years later. So..the OM I caught the emails with, is definitely not someone she had exposure to before. We've also moved since DD2 was born. Same state, but about 40 miles away. I don't know...the logical part of my brain (whatever of it that's left) knows this isn't an issue. But...the illogical side of my brain is banging a drum so loud....it is hard to resist that road, to follow.

I need to concentrate on the VAR issue. If that turns into something more....THEN...I'll pursue the DD2. I know I'm jumping at shadows right now.


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Too much speculation Shaggy. And this won't help DG.
> 
> FWIW, there might still be a simple explanation for all this. DG, maybe you should divorce regardless of the infidelity. This is taking a severe toll on you. I am not sure if you can trust her even this proves to be a false alarm


Well...that's my concern....I don't want to divorce, due to misunderstandings. But....clearly....my trust is shattered. It would be a different matter if she were communicating with me, remorseful for the EA, and showing SOME sort of commitment to the marriage. But, right now....I'm the only one doing anything. And, I'm scared sh!tless about it...as it is. I've been dealing with a completely closed emotion-type person for quite some time. I know, the only way to fix our marriage is for me to break through those walls. BUT...to do that...I need to expose myself...and THAT.....ain't easy. But...I KNOW...she won't make the necessary moves. {sigh}


----------



## Sindo

I think you should pursue DD2 whether or not you turn up anything on the VAR. Otherwise the question's going to keep eating away at you.


----------



## Dadof3

DailyGrind said:


> Well...that's my concern....I don't want to divorce, due to misunderstandings. But....clearly....my trust is shattered. * It would be a different matter if she were communicating with me, remorseful for the EA, and showing SOME sort of commitment to the marriage. But, right now....I'm the only one doing anything. And, I'm scared sh!tless about it...as it is. I've been dealing with a completely closed emotion-type person for quite some time. * I know, the only way to fix our marriage is for me to break through those walls. BUT...to do that...I need to expose myself...and THAT.....ain't easy. But...I KNOW...she won't make the necessary moves. {sigh}


Wait there DG - STOP!

Read what you just said. You don't want to divorce over misunderstandings, then you go ahead and layout the case that we are hinting at. 

You don't have a true marriage right now. Its as "rug sweep" as can get. Can you live with that, really? misunderstanding or no - I don't think I could live with a rug sweep. 

You need to do something else to move past the point you are at right now. I don't advocate easily for D, _but *you already have all the reason in the world to do s*o already without any additional spying and DNA testing. _


----------



## DailyGrind

Well...THAT didn't go according to plan. I met W at the gym tonight, according to plan. Grabbed VAR before going in to meet family. Went into locker room to change and started listening to VAR. I got to the point where I heard her talking on a cell.....and just lost it. Didn't even hear what was being said...just that it confirmed (now that there was no radio noise) that there was a secret cell phone.

I walked out of the gym, and told my W I "can't do this anymore." She asked what I was talking about, and I just responded....'I'm talking about the OTHER phone.' She said "what other phone." But I just couldn't talk to her. I walked out of the gym, and drove home. I KNOW...this isn't what I planned...but I was all emotion.

Went home, and immediately started packing a bag with clothes. She got home, with the kids, before I got out of there...

W (storming up the stairs): What the hell was that about.
M: Tell me about the other phone.
W: What the hell are you talking about.
M: Who have you been talking to, on your way home every day?
W: I don't know what you are talking about.
W: Look at my phone....there's no calls on my phone.
M: I know you have another phone.
W: Maybe you should get your facts straight before you accuse people of things (in her meanest voice)
M: Really....(holding up VAR)...facts?? How about me having a recording of you talking on a cell, on your way home.
W: Oh...so what...you are buggin me now??
M: Don't turn this around about me...this is about you having a secret phone.
M: So...you still want to claim you don't have another phone?
W: Yes.
M: Well...I have a recording that says different.
W: Whatever.
M: There's only ONE reason why someone has a secret phone....and I am NOT dealing with this anymore.

She stormed back downstairs. I finished packing, went downstairs...and called my kids to me. Hugged both of them, and told them how much I love them. Broke my heart, but they started crying "daddy...where are you going. What's going on." I just told them I love them, and would see them later. Then I left.

I drove to my office. Just as I got there, I get a call from home. It is my older daughter...."daddy ...where are you? When are you coming home?" I asked her if her mother told her to call (she doesn't know my cell number.) She said no...then said that "mommy says you think she has a boyfriend..and she doesn't." I said...i'm not discussing this with you...if mommy wants to talk to me directly, she can. I heard her ask W if she would talk to me directly....but apparently she wouldn't. So...DD1 and I said our goodbyes. 

OMG!!! WTF??!! I'm in my office now, and listening further to the VAR. The recording is pretty clear. She is definitely talking work related stuff to someone...and giving HR advice. I just don't get it. WHY would she have a secret phone for WORK stuff??? Obviously not....so...she is using this phone (which she denies having) for work...and....... ??? The only possible explanation to me...is that whoever she is talking to....IS the affair person...at work. Why else?

I'm going crazy here. I know I didn't handle this right. I can't take that back. But ...the short answer is....she HAS another phone.....she lied to my face about it....so...what else do I need to know??


----------



## SadSamIAm

Don't feel bad. It would have been great to get a recording of her talking with other man. But if the other phone was innocent she would have just shown it to you. She just proved she can't be trusted. You maybe should have waited for more evidence but you did the right thing and left. 

You know the phone exists and that she hid it. Let's see how she explains it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aug

She seems well practiced in hiding things from you. That really doesnt bode well for a happy marriage.


----------



## DailyGrind

aug said:


> She seems well practiced in hiding things from you. That really doesnt bode well for a happy marriage.


You got that right. That's the thing hitting me hardest. If she can look me straight in the eye, and dead-on lie to my face about the existence of the phone.....WHAT ELSE has she been lying about. I'm still listening to this VAR. The entire conversation is work related...discussing various HR topics at work. Nothing about an affair.....and YET.....it is a secret phone....she lied about it to my face........to what purpose???!!!!


----------



## aug

DailyGrind said:


> You got that right. That's the thing hitting me hardest. *If she can look me straight in the eye, and dead-on lie to my face about the existence of the phone.*....WHAT ELSE has she been lying about. I'm still listening to this VAR. The entire conversation is work related...discussing various HR topics at work. Nothing about an affair.....and YET.....it is a secret phone....she lied about it to my face........to what purpose???!!!!


She able to do that because she no longer feels guilty about it. To be able to lie to you without feeling guilt means that you are of no value to her. You dont have her respect.

That hurts but now you know she can do that.


----------



## sadcalifornian

Although you still do not have a solid evidence she's cheating, you have decided to confront her. Now the gloves have come off. I suggest that you tell her that you are 100% convinced that she is in affair, and if she wants to prove she is not, then she must take polygraph to prove it. 

If she's not willing, make your demand public by inviting other family members including inlaws or even your kids(you may disagree, but I would).


----------



## warlock07

You should have discussed with the tape in her face listening to it. You were way too emotional. Not an ideal scenario to anyone. There are still chances that she might be innocent. Calm yourself and talk to her. Apologize and tell her what made you believe it to be so and ask her for explanation. You cannot expect people to react reasonably to emotional outbursts. Even if she is cheating, now she has the time to make adjustments.


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> You should have discussed with the tape in her face listening to it. You were way too emotional. Not an ideal scenario to anyone. There are still chances that she might be innocent. Calm yourself and talk to her. Apologize and tell her what made you believe it to be so and ask her for explanation. You cannot expect people to react reasonably to emotional outbursts. Even if she is cheating, now she has the time to make adjustments.


Apologize to her? She may, in fact not be cheating on me...true. But her behavior has warranted my suspicions. In the end...
A) She DOES have a secret phone;
B) She lied to my face.

Maybe there ARE "innocent" explanations to why she has the phone. But....I don't think I should have to apologize for reacting like a human, and investigating. 

The hard part, is I have to go home...at some point, this weekend (can't keep sleeping in my office)....cause I can't set myself up a spousal abandonment legal situation. {sigh}


----------



## sadcalifornian

I think the spousal abandonment can be applied only when the leave is somewhat extensive, although I can't say how long to be exact.


----------



## DailyGrind

sadcalifornian said:


> I think the spousal abandonment can be applied only when the leave is somewhat extensive, although I can't say how long to be exact.


Good point...I just looked it up:

In Maryland abandonment is defined by :

~twelve uninterrupted months of separation

~willful and malicious

~beyond any reasonable expectation of reconciliation


----------



## warlock07

Is she has a smart phone(iphone android), she could have used one of the apps without the logs.(I think)

The apology was for how you reacted. Not for her behavior or possible infidelity.


----------



## sadcalifornian

I still think you should keep polygraph as one of your arsenal. You don't have any definitive evidence yet despite the VAR recording. So, if she keeps denying, which I suspect she will, there is not much else you can do. Once knowing you are really onto her, she will either completly halt any communication till things get quiet or take it even deeper underground. At this juncture, you may end up pulling your hair to no avail.


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Is she has a smart phone(iphone android), she could have used one of the apps without the logs.(I think)
> 
> The apology was for how you reacted. Not for her behavior or possible infidelity.


Good point about the apps. She has a Blackberry. I just looked at our account....and yes...there are sudden huge amounts of data usage: blocks of >500kb. would that be enough for a >1 hr digital conversation? Plus....i'd be shocked if she even knows how to download an app. She's not even figured out how to sync it with her computer.


----------



## warlock07

500KB is too small IMO. Most unlikely .I would give it a 2% probability Instead check it for the day or half a day. Talk to a customer rep if possible.


----------



## Shaggy

Skype and other services are pretty good at usng on small amounts of data BUT why wouldn't she just use her regular cell to just call?

I recommend you clam down and ask her to tell you what she is up to.

Say, I've had suspicions that you have been keeping and hiding things from me. Yes, I bugged your car, and it has proven that you arenttellong the truth. Bugging is wrong, but so is lying to me.

You say you haven't been using the phone, the call logs agree with you, but here is the recording of you yesterday having a long conversation in the car with another person, but without making a call on your cell phone. Do you want to explain how that's possible?

Keep the questions simple direct, yet open. Do not fill in the blanks by accusing her having a bf , have her tell you how it could be, and who it is.

Focus on how she is obviously choosing to hide things and deny them even when there is proof, and say, it's stuff like that which is making you question what's going on and where this is headed. When someone's SO starts hiding things covering things up, and lying there has got to a no good reason at heart of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Shaggy said:


> Skype and other services are pretty good at usng on small amounts of data BUT why wouldn't she just use her regular cell to just call?
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes....this was my thought process.

I just got back from the counselor. She convinced me to go back home, and not talk about this until our session, next Saturday. She, rightfully (it appears) doesn't think W and I can rationally discuss this topic without her there as go between.

I had spoken to the counselor last night, that I really needed to see her this morning. She fit me in. But told me that she called my wife, last night, after talking to me...to see what was up. Wife swears there is no affair, and is mad I spied on her.

I am mad that she is being secretive. We've got some serious power struggle stuff going on. I'm emotionally spent...and jumping at every shadow.


----------



## Shaggy

Your getting jumpy because your gut is saying one thing based on these tid bits and your wife is telling you another. You are conflicted inside about what the truth is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

I think the counsellor did well. It is equally likely that you are hyper sensitive since the D-day. Calm face -on confrontation would have yielded more results though. (Like it did earlier. She could not deny her guilt face). Now she can come up with hundred possible excuses


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> I think the counsellor did well. It is equally likely that you are hyper sensitive since the D-day.


BINGO!! I might need to step back from TAM for a bit. I think all the stories are having me seeing things. That being said.....there still is the issue of a secret phone (or app).......

I'll have to leave that issue off the table, until next Saturday.


----------



## Sindo

Did you bring up DD2 with the counselor as well?


----------



## DailyGrind

Sindo said:


> Did you bring up DD2 with the counselor as well?


No. I think I've caused my emotions enough of a shock this week. And besides....odds are strong she IS mine. 

This does feel weird being back home, now. W is clearly angry at me for the "spying." I'm still angry about the secret phone. We can't discuss before next Saturday, per counselor. ugggh!


----------



## Dadof3

I don't think there would be anything wrong with making a "statement" about it. She hasn't been remorseful about her prior emotional affair so what choice do you have to ease your mind?


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> No. I think I've caused my emotions enough of a shock this week. And besides....odds are strong she IS mine.
> 
> This does feel weird being back home, now. W is clearly angry at me for the "spying." I'm still angry about the secret phone. We can't discuss before next Saturday, per counselor. ugggh!


There IS NO secrecy in a marriage. Nonnegotiable, deal breaker.
This works both ways. passwords email accts, social networks, phones' passwords, etc. husbands and wives have nothing to hide. 

Second biggest mistake.... girls night out / boys night out including going to the gym alone (and who would have seen that one coming)


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## DailyGrind

Well...new update.....

I've been home since Saturday. W and I just walk past each other, barely speaking. The pink elephant in the room (the other phone) is constantly on my mind. I promised our counselor that I would not speak of it until Saturday's session. This has been SOOOO hard, all week.

Weeelllllll......today, she emailed the counselor that she couldn't find a sitter for Saturday, so we needed to postpone the session until after the holidays (counselor only has sessions in our town on Wednesdays and Saturdays.) Wednesdays are not good for us.....so we can only do Saturdays. The next couple, after this weekend...are Christmas and New Years. So...that means waiting a full FOUR weeks after I confronted about the phone, to even talk about it. HOW CAN I DO THAT??? Even more odd....she STILL hasn't even told me about cancelling the session! WTF!! I wonder how hard she tried for the sitter. I think...if this were even remotely important to her....she'd have found someone. Even if she had asked her parents to come down (only an hour away)....it's only her MARRIAGE at stake, for crying out loud.

So....I guess I need to talk to counselor tomorrow. No way I can wait four weeks to try and get an answer about the phone. On the other hand....I think she would probably just shut down on me, rather than answer any questions anyway. Almost no point in even bringing it up. I was really counting on the counselor to help me get answers.

Any advice?


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## Chaparral

Act like you no longer give a sh!t? 180 time prepare yourself to move on. You have a better chance just manning up up and let her know the sun doesn't rise and set because she is around.

Have you read the man up posts in Mens Clubhouse?

Your post sure sounds whiny and needy. I think she is getting disgusted.


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## bangun

chapparal said:


> Act like you no longer give a sh!t? 180 time prepare yourself to move on. You have a better chance just manning up up and let her know the sun doesn't rise and set because she is around.
> 
> Have you read the man up posts in Mens Clubhouse?
> 
> Your post sure sounds whiny and needy. I think she is getting disgusted.


100% :iagree:


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## calif_hope

Have you tried to find a sitter?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Act like you no longer give a sh!t? 180 time prepare yourself to move on. You have a better chance just manning up up and let her know the sun doesn't rise and set because she is around.
> 
> Have you read the man up posts in Mens Clubhouse?
> 
> Your post sure sounds whiny and needy. I think she is getting disgusted.


Well...I guess it doesn't matter now. I just had a long talk with her. She refused to tell me about the conversation in her car. Refused to admit there was another phone....refused to even admit she was talking to someone. She tried claiming she talks to herself. 'For over an hour??' She even said at one point..."Even if I WAS talking to someone else, what makes you think it was a man?" I told her I DIDN't assume it was a man....it didn't matter, it was another phone.

After that, she wouldn't say a thing. I told her I was only going to assume the worst, if she didn't tell me anything that made sense. She finally said she wouldn't say anything more than what she said, because I invaded her space.

So, finally after a bunch of rounds of me saying things about where I'm coming from, and her not saying a thing...I asked her if ANYTHING I was saying was registering. She said yes....but still wound up not talking (our tried and true communication style, over the years.) I asked her if she planned on talking in front of the counselor, on Saturday. She responded "We aren't GOING to the counselor this weekend." 'What? Why' "Because we haven't even started our shopping for the kids yet...we have too much to do before Christmas.....I rescheduled for after the holidays." I asked her if she even looked for a sitter....she admitted no. So....she really had no intention of going.

Finally, I asked her one last time about the conversation/phone....she refused to say anything. So, I told her I had no choice but to see a lawyer. I asked her if she would object to an uncontested divorce. She said no. 

So....there we have it.


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## bangun

so.. what are you waiting for?

She knows you so well. And she enjoy it .


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## warlock07

I'm not sure what to say. I would assume that there are bigger issues than communication here and she needs time for an exit plan.


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## Sindo

Time for the 180. You should have started long ago.

The 180 is not to save your marriage. It's to save your sanity. And yours looks like it's hanging by a thread.


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## lordmayhem

Sindo said:


> Time for the 180. You should have started long ago.
> 
> The 180 is not to save your marriage. It's to save your sanity. And yours looks like it's hanging by a thread.


She refuses to communicate in daily life and MC, all the while keeping secrets, therefore compounding your suspicions and insecurity. She has been doing a modified a modified 180 on you by going dark. AND you are still pursuing her through the confrontations and trying to engage her in communication. She's pretty much shown she's not committed to the marriage.

Time to put the breaks on this. You need to do the 180 for yourself. Its time for you to detach. You're relentlessly pursuing her and she's not responding, which is driving you crazy. This clearly isn't working. Time for you to 180 and start detaching. The 180 is a self empowerment tool for you. Remember that.


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## DailyGrind

lordmayhem said:


> She refuses to communicate in daily life and MC, all the while keeping secrets, therefore compounding your suspicions and insecurity. She has been doing a modified a modified 180 on you by going dark. AND you are still pursuing her through the confrontations and trying to engage her in communication. She's pretty much shown she's not committed to the marriage.
> 
> Time to put the breaks on this. You need to do the 180 for yourself. Its time for you to detach. You're relentlessly pursuing her and she's not responding, which is driving you crazy. This clearly isn't working. Time for you to 180 and start detaching. The 180 is a self empowerment tool for you. Remember that.


How do you do a 180 while you are still living together?


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## lordmayhem

DailyGrind said:


> How do you do a 180 while you are still living together?


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read-3.html


You know there is a 2nd phone, but she won't admit it. Stop trying to get her to admit it
Stop confronting her - she won't admit it anyway
Stop trying to for MC on her - she clearly doesn't want to go. Don't make any more MC appointments. She has to want to go to MC.
Stop trying to talk about the relationship, she doesn't want to. She keeps saying she'll talk about it in MC, then cancels MC. Take MC off the table until she wants to go.
Stop saying I love you
Stop following her around the house trying to get her to engage you
Stop calling her. Be disinterested.
Stop making any plans
Stop buying any gifts for her - especially at Christmas

Start detaching. You're pushing her away by pursuing her. She knows how to push your buttons, like ignoring you. She knows this gets under your skin. Look at your post:



DailyGrind said:


> Well...I guess it doesn't matter now. *I just had a long talk with her*. She refused to tell me about the conversation in her car. Refused to admit there was another phone....refused to even admit she was talking to someone. She tried claiming she talks to herself. 'For over an hour??' She even said at one point..."Even if I WAS talking to someone else, what makes you think it was a man?" I told her I DIDN't assume it was a man....it didn't matter, it was another phone.
> 
> After that, she wouldn't say a thing. *I told her I was only going to assume the worst, if she didn't tell me anything that made sense*. She finally said she wouldn't say anything more than what she said, because I invaded her space.
> 
> *So, finally after a bunch of rounds of me saying things about where I'm coming from*, and her not saying a thing...*I asked her if ANYTHING I was saying was registering*. She said yes....but still wound up not talking (our tried and true communication style, over the years.) *I asked her if she planned on talking in front of the counselor, on Saturday*. She responded "We aren't GOING to the counselor this weekend." 'What? Why' "Because we haven't even started our shopping for the kids yet...we have too much to do before Christmas.....I rescheduled for after the holidays." I asked her if she even looked for a sitter....she admitted no. So....she really had no intention of going.
> 
> *Finally, I asked her one last time about the conversation/phone*....she refused to say anything. So, I told her I had no choice but to see a lawyer. *I asked her if she would object to an uncontested divorce*. She said no.


See how you're forcing the issue? You're trying too hard to get her to engage you and see how she's backing farther away the harder you try? Do the 180, start to detach and let her go.


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## Eli-Zor

And file , don't mention it to her and use adultery as the reason. If your state does not use the adultery option you can still mention her affair in the paperwork.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

lordmayhem said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read-3.html
> 
> 
> You know there is a 2nd phone, but she won't admit it. Stop trying to get her to admit it
> Stop confronting her - she won't admit it anyway
> Stop trying to for MC on her - she clearly doesn't want to go. Don't make any more MC appointments. She has to want to go to MC.
> Stop trying to talk about the relationship, she doesn't want to. She keeps saying she'll talk about it in MC, then cancels MC. Take MC off the table until she wants to go.
> Stop saying I love you
> Stop following her around the house trying to get her to engage you
> Stop calling her. Be disinterested.
> Stop making any plans
> Stop buying any gifts for her - especially at Christmas
> 
> Start detaching. You're pushing her away by pursuing her. She knows how to push your buttons, like ignoring you. She knows this gets under your skin. Look at your post:
> 
> 
> 
> See how you're forcing the issue? You're trying too hard to get her to engage you and see how she's backing farther away the harder you try? Do the 180, start to detach and let her go.


I see what you are saying...I truly do. But, it seems like the two of us have been pulling a mini-180 on each other for years. If we are BOTH doing it....doesn't one of us HAVE to reach out at some point?

Phone issue aside (and whatever ramifications that brings to the table), she did divulge a bit of information during our talk. At one point she was saying that if there WERE a phone...what business would it be of mine. I asked her, if three years ago (before she went cold on me)...if she suspected something of me, and I flat out told her "what business is it of yours"....what would be her reaction? She said...well...then it would probably confirm what I suspected all along. 'You think I've been having affairs???' She said she didn't know, and referenced something that happened in 2007......I'll elaborate.

In 2007, I had been only working for my company for about 3 months, when we got acquired by a European company. The acquisition was very complex....and I wound up working CRAZY hours. My direct employee (male, by the way) became very good friends during all the hours we were working. Since we were in the office until 8:00-10:00 most evenings....we got into the habit of stopping over to the bar, next to our building...for pretty much nightly drinks. Since my wife and kids were already far asleep before I got done working, and I was stressed to the max...and going home to a quiet house was lonely as hell....I felt I was justified to do this. Also...since I was the boss....I quite frequently picked up the bar tab (since I felt guilty my friend could not really afford it.) Anyway...as this was a new job for me...I was also pretty much going out to lunch every day. I guess I really wasn't paying much attention to how much money I was spending. To make matters worse.....on two occasions...I went to a strip club, up the street. I can't even say why I did it....I really don't get much from them...and can count on two hands the number of times I have. Regardless....the first time, my friend and I fell for the old "champagne" bottle trick. The second time, I was leaving the next day for a weekend vacation to an amusement park, with the family...so I took out extra cash...as I was taking out cash anyway. Needless to say....both occassions....my receipts from the place were outrageous. So much so....when I recorded them in my quicken records....I noted "Very STUPID" in the memo field. 

Weeeellll...fast forward to mid-2008. My wife claimed she was innocently looking for a receipt for something she wanted to return...and stumbled on the bank statements for the prior year. She was (rightfully) floored at all the cash withdrawals I had been making the prior year....AND....found the statement showing the amount of the strip club charge. She flipped out at me demanding to know who I was spending all this money on. I had already seriously curtailed a lot of this "night life"...when I did my taxes at the end of 2007....and realized the total for the bar for that year. I couldn't believe I had been so stupid to spend over five thousand dollars at that place. So, by the time my wife found out the cash flow....it was pretty much over. I had a tough time convincing her (I thought) that it was only my friend I had been hanging out with...and that I had NEVER been on the "prowl" or cahorting with women at any time. It appears, however...that she never really believed me. I'm not sure EXACTLY what occured to make her go cold on me last year.....but apparently, this occurance is being used as at least ONE of the excuses for it.

I can't condone that time of my life. I have no excuses. I had a new job in the city....work was crazy....wife was already being a bit reclusive.....(she wasn't working at the time...but STILL had to go to be by 8:00 pm, instead of waiting up for me)....I went a bit coo coo. It is my GREATEST regret in my entire life. I wish I had never started that up. Further...I wish I had realized she still had resentments about that period, and worked hard to dispell them. I didn't! I'm not a bad person.....I've done some bad things, however. My one only excuse is that I never really had a close male friend before. It was great to have someone to go shoot pool, drink beers, and discuss the work issues. I never did this in the dark, with my wife...I always told her when I would be working late...and that I'd go out after. It was her seeing the cash withdrawls that flipped her out. And...since she isn't really the open up and communicate type of person...she only really brought up the issue that one time. I thought I had resolved it....but didn't.

Now....I feel like I must have hurt her so badly back then. I know she should have communicated with me (even if that isn't her style). But now....my heart is bursting because I apparently broke her trust in me. The thing is .....I never did any of the things she thinks I might have. I can't believe our marriage might be ending because I was stupid...and caused her to not trust me...and think I did thinks I would NEVER consider doing. I can't believe she lost that certainty (I thought I always was giving her) that she was the most important thing to me. Yeah...we'd had sex (lack of) issues from almost the beginning of the marriage. BUT...I still loved her with all my heart. 

To find out that this past two years I have been comletely suffering from her coldness....all because of slight stupidity...and misunderstandings. This is way more than I can bear!

Sorry for the long ramble. I'm ready to hear the flaming on how I just brought this on myself....and just get over it.


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## Shaggy

She could aldo be using the 2007 stuff for pure blame shifting too.

Daily whatever happens DO NOT leave your house or kids.

The 180 isn't a plan to make her crack. Instead it helps you.calm you by stopping the constant emotional outreach and constant trying to reason with her.

She is now fully aware you are watching her, and using VARs. So that that for getting info is now gone. Unless she tells you something, or she slinks off at home behind a closed door at 3am, there isn't much you can do now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

Not to mention she is pissed as hell that I bugged her car.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

DailyGrind said:


> Not to mention she is pissed as hell that I bugged her car.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well if she has got sonething going on, she is also pisseded as hell that she got this close to being caught as well. 

Look you need to take a breather and relax.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

I know...but now we have the rescheduled counselor in January, and divorce on the table. Not sure if to cancel the counselor hold off on lawyer....aaaahhhggggg!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

If you have the free time do a consult with a lawyer and find out your options. At least that way if you do discover that there is cause for divorce you know what your options are and you have a lawyer to call.

But stop pushing at it with her for a while. It's not working out anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

I still think there is not enough evidence for cheating but she definitely has secrets.

DG, Do you think you can ask someone else their opinions on the recordings? (the lawyer)

Have you offered to listen to the recordings together.(Apologize if you have to. While you were within your rights to save yourself from heartbreak, she is right to be pissed "at this" moment. But then an innocent spouse would try to prove her innocence at this point. I am so confused. I can only imagine what you are going through)


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## warlock07

Stole this quote from a different thread. Maybe you can try a different version of this




> It began with her usual pillow talk about working it out, moving on. I replied that I have nowhere to move on from. That I feel my life is stolen. That she is a stranger and the woman I love does not exist. That I'm living a life of lies, that chances of working it out are slim to non-existent. How what she tells me is not white lies and her concealing the truth is not helping me at all. How I wish she just had a courage to let me go, to give me my life back.


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## sigma1299

DailyGrind said:


> I know...but now we have the rescheduled counselor in January, and divorce on the table. Not sure if to cancel the counselor hold off on lawyer....aaaahhhggggg!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG - I've been gone from this thread a while and honestly I don't have time right now to read everything between page 5 and today. Based on the first 5 pages and the last 2 - to the above I say NO NO NO. 

As I said in the very beginning. Hand Grenade. You are going to have to show her divorce papers and put a pen in her hand, AND you are going to have to be prepared for her to sign them - which she might do. If she does it was a lost cause any way, if she doesn't, well then hopefully seeing you mean business will snap her back to reality. 

Read Geoffrey Marsh's story - he literally went all the way to the judge's bench before his wife snapped out of it. 

Look - she either doesn't think you'll divorce her over this or doesn't care if you do. So you've got a choice to make - are you willing to live with the marriage like it exist today or not? If you are - well just hunker down. If not then get on with it - don't wait on that MC session or any other excuse you can conjure. Show her it's time to either get her heart in the marriage or get her ass out of it. Either way your future lies in front of you -get on with it.


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## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> I still think there is not enough evidence for cheating but she definitely has secrets.
> 
> DG, Do you think you can ask someone else their opinions on the recordings? (the lawyer)
> 
> Have you offered to listen to the recordings together.(Apologize if you have to. While you were within your rights to save yourself from heartbreak, she is right to be pissed "at this" moment. But then an innocent spouse would try to prove her innocence at this point. I am so confused. I can only imagine what you are going through)


I have had a couple friends listen to the recordings. They think it is CLEARLY a conversation. I did ask her if she wanted me to play the recording. She didn't want me to. I don't think this is evidence of cheating, per se. But it is clearly evidence of SOMETHING going on.

It is odd....cause at one point, last night....she said "I think you will believe what you want to believe." Now I'm thinking....gee....isn't that what YOU are doing, regarding my activities in 2007?


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## DailyGrind

sigma1299 said:


> DG - I've been gone from this thread a while and honestly I don't have time right now to read everything between page 5 and today. Based on the first 5 pages and the last 2 - to the above I say NO NO NO.
> 
> As I said in the very beginning. Hand Grenade. You are going to have to show her divorce papers and put a pen in her hand, AND you are going to have to be prepared for her to sign them - which she might do. If she does it was a lost cause any way, if she doesn't, well then hopefully seeing you mean business will snap her back to reality.
> 
> Read Geoffrey Marsh's story - he literally went all the way to the judge's bench before his wife snapped out of it.
> 
> Look - she either doesn't think you'll divorce her over this or doesn't care if you do. So you've got a choice to make - are you willing to live with the marriage like it exist today or not? If you are - well just hunker down. If not then get on with it - don't wait on that MC session or any other excuse you can conjure. Show her it's time to either get her heart in the marriage or get her ass out of it. Either way your future lies in front of you -get on with it.


Yes....sadly, I just emailed the counselor to cancel the next session.


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## sigma1299

Sucks I know, but as I've seen Hertoo state a couple of times here - when you're in hell keep moving!!


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## DailyGrind

sigma1299 said:


> Sucks I know, but as I've seen Hertoo state a couple of times here - when you're in hell keep moving!!


But....do you move up....or further down?


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## Sindo

DailyGrind said:


> How do you do a 180 while you are still living together?


Read the 180 degree rules. There is nothing in there that cannot be done while you are both in the same home.



DailyGrind said:


> I see what you are saying...I truly do. But, it seems like the two of us have been pulling a mini-180 on each other for years. If we are BOTH doing it....doesn't one of us HAVE to reach out at some point?


As it is, she will not be responding to you reaching out. The person who reaches out needs to be her. 

Don't think of the 180 as some tool to save your marriage. Think of it as a tool to strengthen you through the divorce process.

Consider the following:

1. Only one of you has been making a real effort to repair the marriage. This is a two person job.
2. She has years of bottled up resentments which you cannot address because she won't tell you what they are. 
3. You're jumping at shadows after the affair, and she makes no effort to allay your fears. Can you cope with this indefinitely?

If these things do not change, the marriage is not salvageable. Put aside saving your marriage for now. Implement the 180, and proceed with divorce.


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## DailyGrind

What do you guys think about me reclaiming my bed? For nearly two years, I've slept at my desk, or on the livingroom sofa. This started because of my snoring. I'm hoping to get one of those advertised mouthpieces soon, that supposedly stop the snoring. Plus....I've lost over 15 lbs since the beginning of the year. It may piss her off, as she may see this as an aggressive move...PLUS....I still might snore. BUT....it is my bed (I brought it into the marriage...and sure will take it with me, when I leave).....so I'm thinking enough is enough. I'll go to bed...and if she doesn't like it....SHE can sleep on the sofa. Or...do you think this is pushing it?


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## warlock07

I think it is time you start sleeping on the bed irrespective of the issue.


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## Dadof3

warlock07 said:


> I think it is time you start sleeping on the bed irrespective of the issue.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Chaparral

warlock07 said:


> I think it is time you start sleeping on the bed irrespective of the issue.


Sleep in your bed, do the 180, especially the part where you lose the anger , hostility etc. , prepare for divorce. No more begging pleading whining etc. Just be nice, not a nice guy. 

Move forward she can either follow or get out of the way. Study the 180 and then study it some more. When you find you have deviated from it, which you probably will, get back on it and don't beat yourself up.

If she doesn't come around, so be it. 

Give everything you do some thought. For example , what good did it do to cancel MC except to send her a message. A siily message at that. 

As far as lawyers go, I see no advantage to even talk to one before new years. Get on the 180, monitor, if nothing shakes free, talk to a lawyer in January. 

Try to be calm and be cool. See about some meds. You seem to be wound up tighter than a drum and she seems to just be watching you come apart. Doesn't sound very attractive does it?


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## Chaparral

Did you ever do any reading here?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


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## DailyGrind

Thanks Chapparal....I actually did talk to the counselor yesterday. We agreed to leave the session on the books. She said she also counsels couples in divorce preparation....we'd gauge which direction the counceling needs to go, when we get there. This is assuming that happens (wife even wants to go at that point.). W is still very pissed at me for bugging her car (VAR.). Spoke to my mom last night, who told me SHE would be pissed at my dad if he had done such a thing. I guess there might be such a fine line between being "manned up", and not needing to investigate.....and needinest.......needing to know.

As to NMMNG....yes...I have been reading a bit. I need to do more. I've read the book....and reading again now. I DEFINITELY have some NMMNG issues. Realizing how this has contributed to our issues. Don't think "manning up" will help us at this point.

As for 180....I'm trying. Very hard at home with the two of us. Don't even know how to speak to her.

We are having our company Christmas party this weekend. I had invited W a month ago to it. I haven't talked about it in a couple weeks, and trying to decide if I still go. W hasn't said a word about it...so I'm assuming she either forgot, or doesn't want to go. I thought I might go alone...but didn't think I should just saddle her with the kids. Don't really want to go with her....where we stand today. So complicated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

You know why your wife doesn't see sexual value in you? Because you have allowed her to believe that you will be a babysitter to her children. Stop and think about it, who is going to feel the desire to screw the babysitter? Is that what you have become?


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## DailyGrind

Huh? No....that's notwhatI was saying. Definitely, she sees HERSELF as the babysitter in our relationship....with me working so much. I didn't want to have HER be the babysitter while I went to the party.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Huh? No....that's notwhatI was saying. Definitely, she sees HERSELF as the babysitter in our relationship....with me working so much. I didn't want to have HER be the babysitter while I went to the party.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure but it looks like your over thinking things trying to fix everything. 180 doesn't mean you don't communicate. It gives you a different approach. Ask her if she wants to go to the office party. If she does great, if not fine. If she doesn't, ask her if she will be home to keep the kids or if you all will have to find a babysitter. Just don't make a big deal out of it either way. Short and sweet. Then go about your business.


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## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Try to be calm and be cool. *See about some meds.*


What kind of meds? Would I go to my regular doctor for that?



chapparal said:


> *You seem to be wound up tighter than a drum and she seems to just be watching you come apart.*


Completely.....sucks...cause I am a controller for a large company. This is SO not like me (in regular life). Sadly....JUST like me, when it comes to relationships falling apart. I've had three long-term relationships, in my life. ALL three have put me through this. Time to go to I/C, to find out what THAT's all about. Any wonder I have trust issues? 



chapparal said:


> *Doesn't sound very attractive does it?*


Nope.


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## DailyGrind

I had sent an email to my wife this morning about Christmas stuff. I also wrote this:

'I also assumed the Christmas Party is off, for tomorrow night.'

She just responded with:

"I would go but not if you’ve been talking to people at work about me."


Am I reading too much into this? Is she reaching out? Any advice on response?


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## sigma1299

I say tell her the truth. Either yes I have, or no I have not - are you going with me? If she says no say "have a nice evening" and leave it at that. Then go somewhere - anywhere - preferably to the party but go somewhere so she knows you left for the evening.


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## Eli-Zor

Your analysing to much , she should have said she wants to go and show everyone she wants to remain your wife. Instead she is hiding away .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustaJerk

Its almost as if she's receding into a dark corner. There is no communication on her part to ease your suspicions whatsoever... like she's content with being in limbo, as far as the marriage is concerned.


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## DailyGrind

Considering we were talking divorce just two days ago....maybe this is all she has to offer right now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

She's afraid of the way people will treat her at the party. I think its great that she will go. I get the feeling that your actions(desperation) is like beating her away from the marriage with a stick.

For example, not sleeping with her for two years. Every woman would interpret this as a complete and total rejection of the mariage while you are simply looking at it as a smple solution to a minor problem.

If I were you I would plainly tell her you hope to continue MC but that you had decided to go to IC in any event. You might ask her if your counselor could talk to her if he wanted to. Tell her the truth. You simply can't figure out what is going on, she/ your family is the most important thing in the world, and you need outside help.

I really think if the situation was hopeless she would have already been gone.


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## Shaggy

If you have been talking to people at work, then skip the party with her, but if not then bring her , don't say a word about anything and have a night out.

Also do not be talking about family stuff at work, unprofessional.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Yea - what Shaggy says.


----------



## DailyGrind

I have one good friend there that I always talk to. Also, my admin knows. BUT admin won't be there. My friend will, but...I think I've given him the good/bad/ugly from both sides. He supports me, but sees boh sides.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> I have one good friend there that I always talk to. Also, my admin knows. BUT admin won't be there. My friend will, but...I think I've given him the good/bad/ugly from both sides. He supports me, but sees boh sides.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then take her and have a good time. Leave problems alone.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> DG...
> There are only a few times I have posted on this forum and only a few threads I have followed, and yours happens to be one of them.
> 
> I feel for you and hope things work out. I was in the same state of mind as your wife at one time. Though you are not sure she cheated, I can say I didn't. I did lose that connection with my H and resented him. I acted a lot like your wife...disconnected. I always thought about what it would be like to be with another man though. I hope someday she will wake up as I did and make that reconnection with you.
> 
> Just curious...what was decided about the party? Is she going?
> 
> Take Care!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks so much for the input, IW2BH. I told my W last night that I had told my friend pretty much everything, including my own embarassing aspects. He is a good friend, and supports me...but I don't really think he is judging either of us. Anyway....I left her to decide on her own if she wanted to go to the party. This morning she decided she would. Unfortunately, we waited too last minute...and couldn't find a sitter for the kids. So....we can't go.

I'm not sure what to think, though....she was a lot more friendly this morning. I'm in my 180 mode....but frankly....that isn't much different than it's been for the past two years, when she was cold to me.....so I don't think that is the reason. I'll see what happens through the rest of the weekend. She isn't loving...but is more friendly.

Out of curiousity, though....what made you shift gears? And what made you lose your connection? Did he do anything that made you come back? Did he make changes for you?

Thanks!!


----------



## DailyGrind

Well...just saw some texts between W and a friend of hers, who thought she might have someone to sit for us. Wife responded "I didn't really want to go anyway tonight. Thanks..but we weren't even going to go, but then [Me] seemed like he wanted to go. I didn't really."

So...looks like it wasn't really an opening afterall. Still not sure why she would have even considered it, ony two days after divorce was laid out on the table. Why are women so confusing??!!


----------



## Chaparral

I don't really see where you can take anything from this message. My wife's office used to have two really good Christmas parties but given my preferences the boredom really out weighed a really good steak.

Plus, I was around people I was glad to not have to see for another year. 

That she was willing to go and suffer through it says a lot, just don't get your hopes up yet.


----------



## DailyGrind

The day after our divorce talk ( Wednesday night), I found the letter my wife left me in 2009....when she laid out her concerns about my activities in 2007...porn use...issues with kids, etc. I made one last attempt to reach out to her...by commenting in the letter...and emailed it to her, with the following:

*I found this letter from you….I believe circa 2009….last night. I made some comments on it. I realize there was a subsequent letter, after you found out about the [strip club name]…and my spending at [bar name]. I had thought we got past that…but obviously not. I would like to point out that this activity was during 2007. By the time you discovered [strip club name]…..it had been two years where I had never gone back. No excuse, I know……but I have no way to prove to you how stupid I felt about going there. And once you found it (again …two years later)…how ashamed I was.

As for the spending at [bar name]…..I was being stupid. I felt I had to reward [my employees name] for all the hours I made him work. So, when we did go out…I typically picked up the tab. I never really realized how much money I was spending, until I did the taxes at the end of 2007. Once I did…I cut WAY back. I can never fully explain to you why I went a bit wild in 2007. I believed it to be because I had spent the prior 4 years grappling with [prior employment] and our business….working so much……when I got to [current job name], I got a bit selfish. I WAS working hard…but then…I wasn’t coming home after. This will go down as my biggest regret. I never really understood what I was doing to YOU. I was too focused on what I was going through.

That being said…I had a conversation with [my employee/friend name]this morning on his recollection of those days. He too remembers we did do excess….but not ALL the time. He talked to his wife, who recalls questioning all the time…but then he showed her his timesheets, and she realized. I know I can’t PROVE that the money being spent was not spent on other women. How could I? I could have [my employee/friend name] vouch for me…but you wouldn’t believe. You told me last night that I would believe what I want to believe. Isn’t that what you are doing here?

I was wrong in 2007. I shamed myself into correction (as your letter does attest to.) When you caught it…it shamed me more. BUT…it was never anything near what I believe you were imagining. I so wish we HAD done counseling THEN…so we could have learned at that time, how to communicate with each other. I pains me to think a marriage could be lost over mistakes (yes I know I made mistakes)….but not ones that couldn’t have been easily overcome….if we could only have addressed them better then.

As for the sleazy computer stuff….you have no idea how much I would trade one of your spoon cuddles, for every one of those other minutes. And it never did get worse. Nothing worse than playboy or Cinemax. I honestly didn’t think it bothered you all that much…just that you were concerned it would interfere. Again…no way to prove to you that I would have preferred YOU…any day.*

This was my one last overture to her.....cause it pains me greatly that we may let a marriage die, due to relatively minor mistakes. Sure...we had problems before 2007....but....maybe if we had gone to counseling then..and learned to communicate, we would have adapted. I know the letter isn't exactly 180-ish...and may, indeed, make me look weak. But it also occured to me, that this letter (and the one after...when she found all the spending...including the strip club) were really the only two communication attempts she made to me. Maybe we should have bee WRITING to each other, all along...to try and address things. It is certainly the method she chose, at THAT time.

Anyway...i have no idea if this made any impact at all. I went completely 180 thereafter. She IS slightly friendlier now...but has not responded to the email. So...no way to know what is going on in her head (not that I EVER could.) Anyway....that's the latest of everything.

Thanks Chapparal...you last email makes sense. I try not to get my hopes up...but it IS hard.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Have you told her lately you loved her?


Yes....a couple times. Got nothing back, though.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Oh she sounds just like me. Another resentment I had is my husband is into weight lifting always have been. He would pick the gym over me all the time. I hated it not really knowing if he was really there and by God I was not about to let him know I cared.
> 
> Your wife sounds like me. I know your trying the 180 but maybe you should sleep in your own bed tonight and tell her again how much you love her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm waiting on a mouthpiece, I ordered, that supposedly helps with my snoring. As soon as I get it (sometime next week) I'll definitely got back to my bed. I originally started nodding off at my desk, until the tv turned off (around 3:00 am)...waking me up...and I'd go to bed then. I figured, by that time...she'd have gotten enough sleep...and I wouldn't feel guilty about snoring. Then, one night, she hauled off and hit me (in my sleep) because of my snoring. I got so pissed, I stopped coming up at 3:00. She never once objected...so I assumed she liked the arrangement. I've dropped about 20 lbs, since the beginning of the year...and with this mouthpiece...I'm hoping the snoring is better.....so I'll give it a try again, in our bed.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Does she know about the mouth piece and the plan when it comes?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. Thought I'd surprise her.  Hard to say if my coming back to bed will be welcomed. At this point...I'm doubtful. Part of my reason for doing so is because it is MY furniture. If we divorce...I'm taking it with me. So...if she doesn't like me coming back.....SHE can try sleeping on the sofa for a while. Of course....i'm hoping she doesn't. But...really...there isn't much to be hopeful for, at the moment.


----------



## Dadof3

I'm a CPAP user, never tried the mouth piece. Hopefully it works out for you. That would definitely put a crimp in the love life.


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> I'm a CPAP user, never tried the mouth piece. Hopefully it works out for you. That would definitely put a crimp in the love life.


You mean....it could get worse?


----------



## JustaJerk

I can't believe she didn't object to you NOT sleeping in the marital bed for so long. That there is a red flag in my book.


----------



## DailyGrind

JustaJerk said:


> I can't believe she didn't object to you NOT sleeping in the marital bed for so long. That there is a red flag in my book.


Well...like I've said....I originally started putting off going to bed, later and later....so I wouldn't be the reason "I didn't sleep well last night." It got to the point, I wasn't coming to bed until around 3:00 am....but as soon as I did...she would immediately go into inner spoon position with me. All until last Feb, when she went cold. THEN...she just pulled away when I came to bed. Then, one time...she hauled off and hit me pretty hard....for snoring. So....just stopped coming to bed.

I asked her, in one of our recent talks, why she never insisted to me to go to the doctor and get the snoring fixed. She said..."I don't know...i just figured you would do it. Didn't think I needed to tell you." So...I guess, by the time I stopped coming to bed, she already didn't really care.


----------



## DailyGrind

Man...this has been a tough day. Wife (lately) has had the drawbridges UP, moat filled, and all gates locked...when she takes her shower. So...this morning....I had to ask her something about the kids, heard the shower going...but all the doors were open. So, I went into the bathroom, thinking she was already in the shower. Well...walked in on her completely naked...not in shower yet! YIKES!! Haven't seen THAT in a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time! WOW...did that look good. {sigh}

We went Xmas shopping, and Santa visit..with the kids today. She was downright friendly all day. This evening, as we reviewed the presents lists.....she was a LOT of fun to talk to. We were in the kitchen, reviewing the Xmas lists...just talking/joking around. I'm standing there, looking at her....just thinking "MAN...you are gorgeous!"

WTH??!! We've been getting along better, this whole weekend...than we have for so long. What gives?? Is it my letter? Is she responding to the divorce talk..either:

A) Happy we are discussing divorce;
B) Not happy, and trying to reverse course;
C) Some other option, I can't fathom???

I don't know WHAT to make of all this. I guess I'll wait and see whether we get to the counselor on January 7th. If she doesn't want to go...I'll just HAVE to conclude her better mood is due to wanting the divorce...and move forward. I just have always had so much trouble reading this woman.


----------



## morituri

Have you been following the 180? If the answer is yes, then you may be seeing a side effect of it. Emotionally strong = attractive, Needy = repulsive.


----------



## DailyGrind

morituri said:


> Have you been following the 180? If the answer is yes, then you may be seeing a side effect of it. Emotionally strong = attractive, Needy = repulsive.


I have been. But...like I've said before....I don't really see much difference between the current 180, and what we were both doing to each other, over the past year (at least.) I sent her the letter (earlier post) on Thursday...and then went 180. We STILL have the divorce talk, hanging in the air. We've not talked future, relationship, or reconciliation in any way. Baffling.


----------



## morituri

Your letter was an acknowledgement and ownership of your contributions to the marriage that brought it to the state it's been for a few years. Plus the fact that you brought the possibility of divorce at the beginning of the year - a form of unselfishly letting go of her - may have caused her to overcome some of the resentment she's been carrying for the last few years. Perhaps this is a good sign.


----------



## Dadof3

DG: Very interesting insight to your situation, and with everything being considered, makes ALOT of sense!

Having experienced what I have with my W in the past year, I actually think that the reality of divorce has to come up - not as a threat, but as a real path to the personal boundaries within the marriage.

Realizing the strip bar thing (which sure looks like an affair), with the withdrawal from intimacy (going to bed later with snoring), I would dare say you are very lucky she has stuck with you. 

Affair possibility aside, show her all the love you can while doing the best 180 you can. Make sure she knows how much you love and value her, but at the same time valuing yourself.

GET THAT SNORING TAKEN CARE OF! IT REALLY IS A DRAG ON THE SPOUSE! My wife spent a lot of time on the couch (she tried to sleep with me despite, but she could only take so much of that) - and I finally visited the pulmonologist and got the sleep study done. 

I have a sexy (NOT!) CPAP machine now that I wear (and it really helps with your mood, health), and quite frankly it hasn't made any negative impact to our intimacy as a couple (you don't need to use the machine for SEX!) - and my wife prefers to sleep to the sound of the white noise it produces, and she feels a LOT more secure that I'll be around a lot longer using it, which actually makes her happier to be with me taking care of myself.

Not sure what the science is on the mouthgards - but definitely yes - get the snoring taken care of. When you do things that will help her feel more secure in your marriage, things will thaw out. Help her understand your point of view on the privacy and the cheating suspicions. It came from a valid point of view, and frankly, if you didn't care so much about the marriage, you wouldn't have spied, you would have just left.


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> DG: Very interesting insight to your situation, and with everything being considered, makes ALOT of sense!
> 
> Having experienced what I have with my W in the past year, I actually think that the reality of divorce has to come up - not as a threat, but as a real path to the personal boundaries within the marriage.
> 
> Realizing the strip bar thing (which sure looks like an affair), with the withdrawal from intimacy (going to bed later with snoring), I would dare say you are very lucky she has stuck with you.
> 
> Affair possibility aside, show her all the love you can while doing the best 180 you can. Make sure she knows how much you love and value her, but at the same time valuing yourself.
> 
> GET THAT SNORING TAKEN CARE OF! IT REALLY IS A DRAG ON THE SPOUSE! My wife spent a lot of time on the couch (she tried to sleep with me despite, but she could only take so much of that) - and I finally visited the pulmonologist and got the sleep study done.
> 
> I have a sexy (NOT!) CPAP machine now that I wear (and it really helps with your mood, health), and quite frankly it hasn't made any negative impact to our intimacy as a couple (you don't need to use the machine for SEX!) - and my wife prefers to sleep to the sound of the white noise it produces, and she feels a LOT more secure that I'll be around a lot longer using it, which actually makes her happier to be with me taking care of myself.
> 
> Not sure what the science is on the mouthgards - but definitely yes - get the snoring taken care of. When you do things that will help her feel more secure in your marriage, things will thaw out. Help her understand your point of view on the privacy and the cheating suspicions. It came from a valid point of view, and frankly, if you didn't care so much about the marriage, you wouldn't have spied, you would have just left.


Thanks DadOf3....thanks for the comments. I have had a LOT of introspection, lately. I know I've contributed to some of the withdrawal of intimacy. I'll address this. Hopefully, we'll get to address her original withdrawals as well. Thanks for your insight.


----------



## lordmayhem

DailyGrind said:


> Man...this has been a tough day. Wife (lately) has had the drawbridges UP, moat filled, and all gates locked...when she takes her shower. So...this morning....I had to ask her something about the kids, heard the shower going...but all the doors were open. So, I went into the bathroom, thinking she was already in the shower. Well...walked in on her completely naked...not in shower yet! YIKES!! Haven't seen THAT in a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time! WOW...did that look good. {sigh}
> 
> We went Xmas shopping, and Santa visit..with the kids today. She was downright friendly all day. This evening, as we reviewed the presents lists.....she was a LOT of fun to talk to. We were in the kitchen, reviewing the Xmas lists...just talking/joking around. I'm standing there, looking at her....just thinking "MAN...you are gorgeous!"
> 
> WTH??!! We've been getting along better, this whole weekend...than we have for so long. What gives?? Is it my letter? Is she responding to the divorce talk..either:
> 
> A) Happy we are discussing divorce;
> B) Not happy, and trying to reverse course;
> C) Some other option, I can't fathom???
> 
> I don't know WHAT to make of all this. I guess I'll wait and see whether we get to the counselor on January 7th. If she doesn't want to go...I'll just HAVE to conclude her better mood is due to wanting the divorce...and move forward. I just have always had so much trouble reading this woman.


Doesn't sound like the 180 to me.


----------



## lordmayhem

Iwant2bhappy said:


> That was your perfect oppurtunity in the bathroom and kitchen to tell her how goregous you think she is. Did you do that?
> 
> I was not one to accept compliments so my H never gave them. Now my husband tells me everyday how beautiful I am. I never thought he thought of me as beautiful. It makes me feel so good about myself.
> 
> If you didn't tell her, maybe today send her a text or email saying "yesterday, when I saw you in the bathroom with no clothes on you looked so HOT and when we were in the kitchen last night you looked so GORGEOUS."
> 
> She might not respond but I promise it will make her feel good about herself. And that is what she needs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is not part of the 180. It makes him look clingy and needy. You don't compliment someone who's had/having an EA. Did that work for you when your husband cheated on you?


----------



## DailyGrind

lordmayhem said:


> This is not part of the 180. It makes him look clingy and needy. You don't compliment someone who's had/having an EA. Did that work for you when your husband cheated on you?


I was sort of thinking the same thing. As much as I WANT to compliment her. I wanted to address a couple comments though:

1) I posted about my misdeeds in 2007. But, it is important (in my mind) to note that a LOT of that was in reaction to her already distancing from me, to some degree. We were already at <6x intimacy per year. And at THAT time, I was DAILY telling her I loved her, how beautiful she is, giving daily hugs/kisses (unreturned). So...yes I wasn't the perfect husband.....but this wasn't the chicken/egg.

2) My leaving the bed was NOT me taking my intimacy away. It was because I was being blamed for her lack of sleep. At ANY time, she could have said...."let's work on this, so you can sleep in the bed with me"....but didn't. That being said....nor did I. 

3) I keep playing this recording of her talking in her car. This is STILL the pink elephant in the room (unanswered by her.) It is SOOO clear this is a conversation. What this is about HAS to be answered, if I am every going to get past it. My chief concern is that this (whatever "this" is) may go back to the start of her going cold.

At this point...I'm just confused WHY she was much softer, this weekend. Maybe it is just because of the holidays. I'm afraid I probably won't know much, until the date of our rescheduled MC session comes up. If she goes, and talks there...I may find my answer. If she cancels...I guess that tells me as well.


----------



## DailyGrind

lordmayhem said:


> Doesn't sound like the 180 to me.


What is not 180 about what I wrote?


----------



## aug

DailyGrind said:


> I was sort of thinking the same thing. As much as I WANT to compliment her. I wanted to address a couple comments though:
> 
> 1) *I posted about my misdeeds in 2007.* But, it is important (in my mind) to note that a LOT of that was in reaction to her already distancing from me, to some degree. We were already at <6x intimacy per year. And at THAT time, I was DAILY telling her I loved her, how beautiful she is, giving daily hugs/kisses (unreturned). So...yes I wasn't the perfect husband.....but this wasn't the chicken/egg.



There's 27 pages of this thread to review. I saw your post on your almost EA of over a year or so ago, the distancing of your wife about 2 years ago. But there's too much to read. 

What were your misdeeds in 2007?

On edit. Never mind. Found it. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/33999-pretty-much-have-lost-25.html#post518991


----------



## DailyGrind

aug said:


> There's 27 pages of this thread to review. I saw your post on your almost EA of over a year or so ago, the distancing of your wife about 2 years ago. But there's too much to read.
> 
> What were your misdeeds in 2007?


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/33999-pretty-much-have-lost-22.html

Post #325 pretty much explains it.


----------



## morituri

More direct link http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/33999-pretty-much-have-lost-22.html#post516222.


----------



## DailyGrind

morituri said:


> More direct link http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/33999-pretty-much-have-lost-22.html#post516222.


How do you do that?


----------



## morituri

DailyGrind said:


> How do you do that?


If I told you I would have to keeell you 

Ok pay close attention because there will be a quiz at the end of the class:

1. Go to any post from any member on any thread. For example Chaparral's comment, #137 on page 10 on your thread "Pretty Much Have Lost It".

2. Right click on the comment and click on "view page source" (Firefox) or "view source" (Internet Explorer).

3. One the source window opens, press Ctrl+Alt+F to open up a find window (on Firefox it will open an embedded search box on the bottom of the find window and on Internet Explorer it will open as a separate little window on top).

4. Type in the first 3 words of the comment to find the location in the "view (page) source" window. It will search and when it finds it, it will highlighted.

5. Locate the URL with the post # (in this case #137) http://talkaboutmarriage.com/475857-post137.html.

6. Now if you really want to fancy it up. Type 'Chaparral's comment' to display a title link instead of the URL. I purposely removed the closing bracket ']' so you can see how to do it Chaparral's comment[/URL. But with the last bracket included it, you should have a clean title link [URL="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/475857-post137.html"]Chaparral's comment.

Any questions?


----------



## warlock07

Lordmayhem that is unnecessary. Right click on the post number and copy the link address. That should do it.

Like this --> permalink


Or like this


----------



## morituri

warlock07 said:


> Lordmayhem that is unnecessary. Right click on the post number and copy the link address. That should do it.
> 
> Like this --> permalink
> 
> 
> Or like this


Wrong forum member warlock  but you are absolutely right it is a *much easier way* than the convoluted procedure I posted. Thanks.


----------



## DailyGrind

Any of you that has followed my thread, has seen that one of my biggest issues I have to face is getting by the "secret phone" discovery. When I confronted my wife...she claimed she was talking to herself. My Earlier Description Below are a couple links to some audio from her "conversation." What do you guys think? Is she talking to herself??

Too Files - Free File Hosting - No limit - Sandy Car-1 - sandycar-1.wma - Too Files

Too Files - Free File Hosting - No limit - Sandy Car-2 - sandycar-2.wma - Too Files

Too Files - Free File Hosting - No limit - Sandy Car-3 - sandycar-3.wma - Too Files

Too Files - Free File Hosting - No limit - Sandy Car-4 - sandycar-4.wma - Too Files

Too Files - Free File Hosting - No limit - Sandy Car-5 - sandycar-5.wma - Too Files

Bear in mind, there are a lot of road noises in the audio. She claimed she "frequently talks out issues she's gone through during the day." I told her 'I'm not stupid...and there is NO WAY you can believe that I would believe this is anything but you talking on the phone to someone.' The amazing thing is....the entire call appears to be work related (she works in HR.) So...WHY....not on her regular cell? She still adamantly denies the existence of another phone.

The last audio is her getting back into her car, and continuing the "conversation." It is probably the clearest audio.

Now....I ask you guys....am I CRAZY?? I can't get past this issue...but she looks me STRAIGHT in the eyes...and denies another phone, but offers no explanation on how I could be hearing this conversation...except she is "talking to herself." I just can't believe she is for real!!


----------



## morituri

To be honest I was barely able to hear her voice, let alone discerning whether or not she was actually having a conversation, except perhaps for the last file but even there much of it is unintelligible. Maybe it's just me but it just seemed to me so inconclusive. Sorry.


----------



## DailyGrind

morituri said:


> To be honest I was barely able to hear her voice, let alone discerning whether or not she was actually having a conversation. Maybe it's just me but it just seemed to me so inconclusive. Sorry.


It's hard to get a good quality download off the VAR. Did you listen to the last file?


----------



## morituri

DailyGrind said:


> It's hard to get a good quality download off the VAR. Did you listen to the last file?


Yes I did and while it does sound like she's talking to someone, it seemed not to continue very much since the background noise was very overwhelming.


----------



## aug

Does she talk to herself at home? Have you ever seen her talk to herself when she's concentrating or working on something?

I note on #1, at 4:40 mark, she says "Wow". At 4:50, she laughs.

On #2, she laughs at 0:50, 1:15 and 6:08.

So, do people who talk to themselves laugh at their own remarks or after some silence?


I think she's carrying on a conversation with someone.


----------



## Sindo

You may be able to remove some of the background noise, but results may vary.

Quickly googling, here's an example using Audacity, which I believe is a freely downloadable program.

Podtopia.net - How to remove noise with Audacity


----------



## Trojan John

She's having a conversation with someone, but it's entirely work related (re: management of subordinate, changing hours, etc). I ran the audio through a couple of audio filters and there is still a lot of noise, but is definitely not her talking to herself and there does not seem to be anyone else in the car with her -- meaning phone conversation.

Unless she has dissociative identity disorder.


----------



## nikki b.

I hesitate to post here, for one I'm not married and for two I haven't ever been in this type of situation. And for three I'm ashamed of what I'm telling you. 

But DG, I read this whole thread. Your wife could be me. Honestly, I hope to God that I get over my communication problems before I ever get married, but her behavior is much like mine in any relationship.

There are a lot of reasons, which are irrelevant here, for why I have problems communicating. And I am totally aware of it. I have a caring partner right now who is extremely open and patient and tries very hard, but I can tell he's getting kind of tired of it. And so I've been spending tons of time lately reading about communication and how I can approach our issue (which is why I've been reading TAM).

Anyway... I understand your wife's response in almost every situation you described. It is so difficult for me to open up that if I ever try and feel slighted in the very least or not really listened to, that just ruins it. For a long time. As much as I want to fix it, I'm too scared to put myself out there and get hurt again. So I don't say anything. And I bet my idea of a slight would be something that you would scoff at. Which would make me feel even worse. And if that went on for years? Yikes. There's more to it but this is not the real point.

One of the things I do a LOT is talk to myself in the car -- and I'm always paranoid someone is listening, I check my phone every 10 seconds to make sure I didn't accidentally dial someone (has happened before). For example, I wanted to talk to my guy about how I want us to communicate better and what I need from him to do that. 

You probably don't understand, but for me that is an enormously difficult conversation to have. I've been preparing and preparing what I want to say. And I practice it in my car, by talking out loud and saying what I want to say. Because I have a really hard time speaking words that have anything at all to do with my feelings. Writing it out is considerably easier, I'm not surprised she wrote you a letter, way back when. 

Point is, I'm trying to get ready to say what I want to say in a conversation, and the car is the safest place to do it, since it requires talking out loud and I can't risk anyone hearing me talk about my feelings. I mean, even if I manage to get the courage to actually have that conversation with him, it can take me 20 minutes to say something like "I would like us to work on our communication together in these ways". I'm not joking. This, btw, is after months of counseling. Before that I would never have even considered trying to say those words.

But I've practiced. I talk to him, kind of ready to have my prepared talk, but he's detached and not really listening to me, or that's how I perceive him. Well now I don't feel safe telling him all the stuff I was getting ready to. So I shut off. I'm mad that he was detached. I'm mad that I'm not capable of saying what I want to say. I'm mad because I want this to be fixed and I can't do it. But those feelings usually manifest as me showing as little emotion as possible. 

Quite frankly, I'm terrified my marriage will turn out like yours. I can see myself ruining a relationship like that. I'm hoping to prevent it. So, I guess my point is... I haven't listened to the audio, but it is plausible that she was talking to herself, mimicking a conversation, without being a total psychopath. (I sure hope I'm not one ) Also, if I was then confronted with being recorded while talking to myself, I probably wouldn't admit it. Because I would have to admit that I was talking about my feelings, which is terrifying.

Obviously, I have no idea what happened, and maybe your wife and I aren't similar at all. But I am very much in love with my boyfriend and react much like your wife does. I don't know about her -- I think about 8 years of living with these communication problems, and I'm sure I wouldn't be able to do that. I can barely take another day of it now. But when you describe her reactions to things you've said and done (or her non-reactions), I can relate with her in pretty much every single one. She didn't say anything in response to you after you said/did that? Yup, I wouldn't have said anything either. I also wouldn't have shown you any reaction, regardless of whether I was feeling positive or negative at that moment.

OTOH, I've never cheated on someone in a relationship so I don't know how I would act in that situation. FWIW from what I'm reading, I don't actually think she is, at this point. I think she's just reacting to the situations she's getting put in. But, again, I know nothing about the real life situation. Maybe she is cheating, and maybe she does have a secret phone on the side. From the comments I read in response to the recordings, what I described here is very unlikely to be what happened (I wouldn't laugh *that* much at myself  But I do sometimes snicker at myself at how ridiculous I am being). I just wanted to give a possible hint at a perspective from the other side. Obviously it shows that I need quite a bit of help, and I'm sure your W does too. But I'm working on it, hopefully with some extra help from people here too. 

Good luck.

(whoa, sorry for the novel. was trying to give some context to why i thought it was plausible she might not be talking to someone else)


----------



## FourtyPlus

I talk to myself, basically thinking aloud: "You'd think cleaning out the dishwasher isn't rocket science, not even for a 14 year old!" - "Guess it's time for a coffee break".

Years ago I would give my dashboard sales presentations on a daily basis. It helped me relieve jittery nerves.

I have also gone through past conversations that upset me and when I got to the point in the conversation where I had said something, I replaced it "out loud" with what I wish I had said. And yes, all of these were work related.

I also talk to my cats.

What I heard on the last tape was a conversation with someone. There are pauses in mid sentence, like she's being interrupted.

I know there are crazy people with imaginary friends and I don't doubt that imaginary friends can be rude enough to interrupt. However, this probably isn't the case with your wife. In my opinion, she's having a conversation with someone, it's not her talking to herself.


----------



## nikki b.

Yeah... I probably should have listened to the tape before I vomited up my opinion.  

And this...


FourtyPlus said:


> I know there are crazy people with imaginary friends and I don't doubt that imaginary friends can be rude enough to interrupt.


:rofl:


----------



## DailyGrind

Remember, too, there is nearly an HOUR of this. I've only uploaded a few choice moments. Making it even odder, not uploaded yet....but.....there is one section where she calls ME on her real phone. I don't hear her saying "hang on a minute while I call H.". She just calls me in the middle of her conversation....then goes right back to her other conversation. Two days earlier, before I disabled her radio.....she was having similar conversations....harder to hear because of the radio. She never turned down the radio, for the conversation. I NEVER hear her say Hello or Goodbye in these calls. So confusing, as it seems SOOOO obvious it IS a conversation....and yet .....talking to herself would explain the other things (not turning down radio, not saying hold on, not saying goodbye.). OTOH...I just might not be picking up her saying these. But....who doesn't turn down the radio when they make a call??

So confused....but this is a pivotal issue....and she won't tell me more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Remember, too, there is nearly an HOUR of this. I've only uploaded a few choice moments. Making it even odder, not uploaded yet....but.....there is one section where she calls ME on her real phone. I don't hear her saying "hang on a minute while I call H.". She just calls me in the middle of her conversation....then goes right back to her other conversation. Two days earlier, before I disabled her radio.....she was having similar conversations....harder to hear because of the radio. She never turned down the radio, for the conversation. I NEVER hear her say Hello or Goodbye in these calls. So confusing, as it seems SOOOO obvious it IS a conversation....and yet .....talking to herself would explain the other things (not turning down radio, not saying hold on, not saying goodbye.). OTOH...I just might not be picking up her saying these. But....who doesn't turn down the radio when they make a call??
> 
> So confused....but this is a pivotal issue....and she won't tell me more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


From what you post here, it does sound like she's talking to herself, though very odd. 

She's too p!ssed to admit it? 
Doesn't like the spying. In her mind she has never had an EA and wasn't intending on a PA.

I'm also wondering if there could be an app that is affecting the phone records.


----------



## Halien

nikki b. said:


> Yeah... I probably should have listened to the tape before I vomited up my opinion.
> 
> And this...
> 
> :rofl:


Nikki, don't be so hard on yourself. While your post might not apply to this particular case, DailyGrind might still be dealing with situations with his wife that you can offer pretty unique advice about. I noticed a few familiarities between your problems in the way you approach relationships and the issues that he mentioned with his wife in the past. This is the real issue, I believe, in that he describes her as always having difficulty in just being 100% engaged within the moment, as though she is often reserved, unable to open up.

DG,

Probably farfetched, but has your wife ever had a tendency to record meetings at work on her phone? I wondered if she was listening to a recording and prepping for some sort of future encounter at work. I guess it would really only make sense if her job had recently changed, and she was learning the ropes, or if there was a big issue going on at work. Just trying to understand the absence of another phone. I once had a manager who made us all carry notecards with PowerPoint notes, and practice our meetings with a general manager. I'm an ad lib type, so I pretty much refused to do it, but I could hear my coworkers carrying on one-sided conversations all the time.


----------



## aug

nikki b. said:


> Point is, I'm trying to get ready to say what I want to say in a conversation, and the car is the safest place to do it, since it requires talking out loud and I can't risk anyone hearing me talk about my feelings. I mean, even if I manage to get the courage to actually have that conversation with him, it can take me 20 minutes to say something like "I would like us to work on our communication together in these ways". I'm not joking. *This, btw, is after months of counseling.* Before that I would never have even considered trying to say those words.


If you cant talk to him about it, how about taking him along to one of your counseling sessions and let your therapist explain it to him?

/temporary thread jack, now back to regular programming.


----------



## DailyGrind

aug said:


> Does she talk to herself at home? Have you ever seen her talk to herself when she's concentrating or working on something?
> 
> I note on #1, at 4:40 mark, she says "Wow". At 4:50, she laughs.
> 
> On #2, she laughs at 0:50, 1:15 and 6:08.
> 
> So, do people who talk to themselves laugh at their own remarks or after some silence?
> 
> 
> I think she's carrying on a conversation with someone.


I've only seen her talk to herself, if she were commenting on another driver, or something. Never a whole conversation.


----------



## DailyGrind

Halien said:


> DG,
> 
> Probably farfetched, but has your wife ever had a tendency to record meetings at work on her phone? I wondered if she was listening to a recording and prepping for some sort of future encounter at work. I guess it would really only make sense if her job had recently changed, and she was learning the ropes, or if there was a big issue going on at work. Just trying to understand the absence of another phone. I once had a manager who made us all carry notecards with PowerPoint notes, and practice our meetings with a general manager. I'm an ad lib type, so I pretty much refused to do it, but I could hear my coworkers carrying on one-sided conversations all the time.


I thought that as well...maybe a recording of her side of a phone conversation. I would think that remote, though. She works in HR. I would think, if it were found out....people would be pissed she was recording (even if it was only her side of the conversation.) I mean...it WOULD explain a lot.....but then....why wouldn't she say THAT, instead of "talking to myself?"


----------



## DailyGrind

nikki b. said:


> I hesitate to post here, for one I'm not married and for two I haven't ever been in this type of situation. And for three I'm ashamed of what I'm telling you.
> ...........


Thanks for your insight, nikki. She also has been very resistant to communicating.....which has DEFINITELY put strain on the marriage....pretty much since day one. I don't know what is going on.....obviously, or I wouldn't be here.  

As for your novel....it was wonderful of you to write so much, with your first post. There may be similarities.....I'm not sure. It really sucks, as ...so much of my direction from here...depends on if there actually IS another phone, and she was lying to my face. I never saw her as a liar, before. If this is, in fact, the case.....I would have to question EVERYTHING about our time together. {sigh}

Thanks again!


----------



## morituri

So are you saying that your wife has been uncommunicative with you throughout the whole marriage?


----------



## DailyGrind

morituri said:


> So are you saying that your wife has been uncommunicative with you throughout the whole marriage?


Not uncommunicative. Just not sharing really, of her feelings. She never would tell me what was wrong, when she was obviously upset about something. She would never tell me deep stuff. Claimed she never had fantasies, never had issues. I can't recall many (if ever) times she would initiate "I love you", or affection. She is proud of her self-professed introverted-ness. The letter I got from her (in 2009) was probably the first time she ever vented feelings. 

Don't get me wrong.....she's been friendly, fun....and a good mom. But...she's always had walls around her feelings. The walls just seem to be higher/thicker now, than when we first met.


----------



## morituri

Then the two of you never had true intimacy - the mutual sharing of each others deepest thoughts and feelings.

If you've exhausted every avenue to have your wife open up to you emotionally and physically, do you plan on remaining married to her?


----------



## DailyGrind

morituri said:


> Then the two of you never had true intimacy - the mutual sharing of each others deepest thoughts and feelings.
> 
> If you've exhausted every avenue to have your wife open up to you emotionally and physically, do you plan on remaining married to her?


I agree....we probably haven't. IF....there is no other phone, and therefore no secret things going on; then I am willing to do all I can to get us through counseling, and try to fix this. I love my wife VERY much....and always wanted more depth for us. We just kept making excuses ...her business, my business, my job, kids, etc. No more... If I can get past the phone thing....I'll do everything I possibly can to get us the help we need, for our communication. If after a year, there is not improvement from that (ie...better communication, intimacy)...well...I'll cross the bridge if/when I get to it, I guess.


----------



## DailyGrind

Links to Car Conversation

Okay...so I count 4 Yes's, 1 No, and 2 Iffy's.

Why does basically confirmation not make me fell better? 

I feel better, that I'm probably not crazy....but what can I do with it? 180 continues. It would almost have been better to have heard love-talk. At least THEN...I wouldn't have any questions. Everything would be clear. As it stands...it is still limbo...which completely sucks!!


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Links to Car Conversation
> 
> Okay...so I count 4 Yes's, 1 No, and 2 Iffy's.
> 
> Why does basically confirmation not make me fell better?
> 
> I feel better, that I'm probably not crazy....but what can I do with it? 180 continues. It would almost have been better to have heard love-talk. At least THEN...I wouldn't have any questions. Everything would be clear. As it stands...it is still limbo...which completely sucks!!


I listened to three of the recordings and I'm pretty much baffled.

Where was the VAR located in the car? This may help someone in the future as to where to put the VAR.

Do you have a theory as to why you could not find a second phone if there was one? How much time did the recordings cover?

You need to control your emotions. You let her know you were recording her. She got more info out of this than you did. Hold your cards close to the vest. She trusts you even less now.

Why would she use a secret phone to talk about work?

Since you do not sleep with her, do you have a VAR in the bedroom or anywhere besides the car?

Have you checked to see if she is going to the gym when OM is there?


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I listened to three of the recordings and I'm pretty much baffled.
> 
> Where was the VAR located in the car? This may help someone in the future as to where to put the VAR.
> 
> Do you have a theory as to why you could not find a second phone if there was one? How much time did the recordings cover?
> 
> You need to control your emotions. You let her know you were recording her. She got more info out of this than you did. Hold your cards close to the vest. She trusts you even less now.
> 
> Why would she use a secret phone to talk about work?
> 
> Since you do not sleep with her, do you have a VAR in the bedroom or anywhere besides the car?
> 
> Have you checked to see if she is going to the gym when OM is there?


What are you baffled about?

I tried the VAR three times. First time was in the map bin, on the driver's side door. Unfortunately, the radio was too loud (there was a speaker right next to the map bin.) I did hear her talking...but very strained to hear. So I tried again with the VAR under the passenger seat. Again...radio, and road noises were too loud...so I heard even less. Third time, I pulled the fuse on the radio, and put the VAR between the drivers seat, and console area. Overall....it was about 2 1/2 hours of recording (1 1/4 each direction.) I didn't hear much on her way TO work. But nearly the entire way home, she was talking (I only posted about 15 minutes of the entire 60+ minutes.)

I know I messed up in revealing my spying. Unfortunately, I can't take it back.

Why she wuld use the secret phone for work is the most confusing part to me. Unless...the one she is talking to at work IS the one she got the secret phone for.

VAR in the bedroom is a good idea..but I doubt she would actually TALK to him..when she could be overheard. Texting is another thing...but...VAR won't catch that. 

I've wondered about the working out, if she is meeting someone there. I know she goes, because I can get the club activity report, online. Whether she is meeting someone there, though....no real way for me to check. I can't load the kids up at 6:00 AM, and run over to check. Short of a PI...it would be hard to track that....but I AM thinking about it. But, frankly....the phone is enough for me......I just can't believe I still have doubts about it. What more do I need to hear?


----------



## JustaJerk

My question is why isn't she putting your fears to rest and just becoming TOTALLY transparent. If she has nothing to hide, then why is she being vague about everything you question her about. 

Clearly, she was engaging in inappropriate behavior with the guy you caught her conversing with. Why is it so hard for her to digest that? I don't understand why she can't sit down with you and lay it ALL on the table... you're her [email protected]#$ing husband for Christ sakes!!! She should put your mind at ease, rather than letting you lose sleep over her current activities and behavior.


----------



## NotLikeYou

So, Dailygrind, how are you enjoying life lately? You must be looking good, from being on a diet of fear and paranoia. Really takes the excess pounds off.

Yeah, old JustaJerk wonders why your wife isn't putting your fears to rest and just becoming totally transparent- he seems to think she loves you , or something crazy like that.

Back on page 24 of this thread, you posed a question, "why are women so confusing?" But your wife isn't confused at all. She resents the hell out of you, doesn't love you, doesn't respect you, could give a damn about your feelings, and, if she could bet her life's savings on a wager as to whether or not you will leave her, she would. And she'd collect her winnings.

The only one who is confused here is you, and that's because you keep wanting to see something that simply isn't there.

I mean, I'm not trying to be rude here, but, well, don't you think your WIFE is being rude, when you confront her about VAR-logged conversations in her car, and she tells you to go pound sand?

Instead of continuing to bang your head against the brick wall that is your wife's loathing of you, might I humbly suggest that you scrape together the money to go visit with a lawyer, so that you can understand your legal options and begin rebuilding your self respect?

It takes two to tango, and right now, your wife isn't even in the dancehall with you.


----------



## DailyGrind

I've scheduled a first consultation with a lawyer, next week.

She's friendlier to me.....but I have no idea what that means. She has NOT been going out of her way to nullify my concerns. I get that she is mad at me for my spying. But, we STILL have no closure on the car conversation.


----------



## Eli-Zor

> I get that she is mad at me for my spying.


She has no right to be mad and nor should this worry you. If she was transparent and behaving honestly neither of you would be in this position.


----------



## Dadof3

Another way to look at it is, at least she knows why you are weird. Her half isn't transparent.


----------



## warlock07

Dailygrind I am conflicted here. I am not sure what to make of the tapes. Did she deny talking at all or did she argue that she was talking to herself or is she not willing to discuss at all. It could be that she talks to herself in private but you should have observed it by now. Right now 
75%- Talking to someone 

25% - Talking to herself


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Dailygrind I am conflicted here. I am not sure what to make of the tapes. Did she deny talking at all or did she argue that she was talking to herself or is she not willing to discuss at all. It could be that she talks to herself in private but you should have observed it by now. Right now
> 75%- Talking to someone
> 
> 25% - Talking to herself


Claimed she was talking to herself. After I told her I wasn't stupid....refused to discuss further because I "violated her space.". Flat outwould 't discuss further except to say..."even if I WAS talking to someone..what business is it of yours "
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Have you considered what she can do to convince you that she was only talking to herself?(if it indeed was the case).

Have you considered this scenario at all?

The anger at being bugged + the embarrassment of the revelation that she talks to herself like a crazy person(which was her own secret until now) + the hopelessness/apathy that she cannot convince you otherwise might be making her act like she is.


----------



## Chaparral

"even if I WAS talking to someone..what business is it of yours"

I would have told her that is not something married people would say to the their spouse. Married people do NOT keep secrets.


----------



## warlock07

they have a history of resentment.


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Have you considered what she can do to convince you that she was only talking to herself?(if it indeed was the case).
> 
> Have you considered this scenario at all?
> 
> The anger at being bugged + the embarrassment of the revelation that she talks to herself like a crazy person(which was her own secret until now) + the hopelessness/apathy that she cannot convince you otherwise might be making her act like she is.


I don't know WHAT she could do. I only posted about 10 minutes of an over one hour conversation. The last audio is most damning...as she is getting back into the car and her voice is very clear. It seems so obvious she is conversing. As another pointed out...she even gets interrupted a couple times.

I don't know how she could convince me otherwise. BUT she could probably get me to forgive her, by forgiving me....and actually tried to work on the relationship. Just a thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> "even if I WAS talking to someone..what business is it of yours"
> 
> I would have told her that is not something married people would say to the their spouse. Married people do NOT keep secrets.


I DID tell her....'because I'm still your HUSBAND!'


----------



## Shaggy

Daily, you need to start getting a good nights sleep and take a breather. Even if you are correct and there is something, your current approach isn't working. It's only making you miserable.

Fix your sleeping situation. If she won't let you bak in your bed, buy a new twin bed and put it another room.

Don't pursue the talking until you've. Had a couple nights of sleep. You are tired, and you need to charge up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Well...yesterday I got my mouthpiece, for snoring. So...I reclaimed my spot in the bed, last night. She wasn't overly pleased about it.

I asked her this morning, 'did I snore?' She told me she heard me a couple times, "but I could still hear you breathing." I told her I couldn't do anything about the breathing. {geez}

Still....she seems to have reverted back, a bit...to her colder self. {sigh}...should have known.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Well...yesterday I got my mouthpiece, for snoring. So...I reclaimed my spot in the bed, last night. She wasn't overly pleased about it.
> 
> I asked her this morning, 'did I snore?' She told me she heard me a couple times, "but I could still hear you breathing." I told her I couldn't do anything about the breathing. {geez}
> 
> Still....she seems to have reverted back, a bit...to her colder self. {sigh}...should have known.


My sarcastic side probably would have surface. I would have said "well at least you know I'm alive...how are you going to convince me you're alive."

It's good you reclaimed you position in the marital bed. Get some much needed rest and try to center yourself. Your mind has been in overdrive for so long. You need rest and clarity.


----------



## FourtyPlus

So the mouth piece works? Where did you get it? Link? I NEED one!


----------



## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> So the mouth piece works? Where did you get it? Link? I NEED one!


Can't say for sure that it works. Wife did say she heard me snoring a couple times....but then.....at some point, during the night, it fell out. So....I can't confirm at this point.

But...here is the link: zquiet

I woke up in a near panic attack, early this morning. I haven't slept next to my wife in almost 2 years. It came flooding back, like almost yesterday....how we used to cuddle...always touching...even if it was only our feet. When kids started invading our bed (years ago), coming between us.....we (probably mostly me) would always at least have our feet touching, at the bottom of the bed. Now....to be in the same bed again...but still so far apart. {sigh}


----------



## FourtyPlus

My husband says if we would have slept in the same bed the A might have not happened because we would have been closer than we actually were. 
I have tried many times to sleep in the same bed and I always ended up not sleeping. Most trials didn't last longer than a few months, then I got to a point where I was exhausted due to lack of sleep. I miss sleeping in the same bed a lot, will order the mouth piece and also looking into hypnosis.


----------



## Beowulf

FourtyPlus said:


> My husband says if we would have slept in the same bed the A might have not happened because we would have been closer than we actually were.
> I have tried many times to sleep in the same bed and I always ended up not sleeping. Most trials didn't last longer than a few months, then I got to a point where I was exhausted due to lack of sleep. I miss sleeping in the same bed a lot, will order the mouth piece and also looking into hypnosis.


I used to snore a lot too. My wife was such an angel and never complained but she had "Morticia Adams eyes" from lack of sleep. I was a bit overweight and had problems with my tonsils. I lost weight and when they took out my tonsils they also took out my uvula as well. Now I don't snore at all. And because I don't have a uvula anymore I no longer have a gag reflex and can deep throat a broomstick. Bonus points! :rofl:


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> I used to snore a lot too. My wife was such an angel and never complained but she had "Morticia Adams eyes" from lack of sleep. I was a bit overweight and had problems with my tonsils. I lost weight and when they took out my tonsils they also took out my uvula as well. Now I don't snore at all. And because I don't have a uvula anymore I no longer have a gag reflex and can deep throat a broomstick. Bonus points! :rofl:


You have a WIFE, and are proud you can "deep throat"?? ?? I'm missing something.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Beowulf said:


> I used to snore a lot too. My wife was such an angel and never complained but she had "Morticia Adams eyes" from lack of sleep. I was a bit overweight and had problems with my tonsils. I lost weight and when they took out my tonsils they also took out my uvula as well. Now I don't snore at all. And because I don't have a uvula anymore I no longer have a gag reflex and can deep throat a broomstick. Bonus points! :rofl:


Hubby had a vasectomy after our daugther was born and I made the mistake of having his dog fixed about year later (it saved the furniture, so give me a break!), now you want me to ask him to snip his tonsils and uvula so he can have fun with broomsticks?


----------



## Beowulf

I was trying to bring a little humor to the situation. Obviously I failed. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.


----------



## morituri

Swallowing swords is more macho than swallowing broomsticks.


----------



## Beowulf

morituri said:


> Swallowing swords is more macho than swallowing broomsticks.


True, but since swords are more of a phallic symbol I was concerned about the symbolism. 


Plus my wife was sweeping the kitchen floor at the time I posted and I was just too lazy to think of anything else.


----------



## morituri

Beowulf said:


> True, but since swords are more of a phallic symbol I was concerned about the symbolism.


I see your 'point' :rofl:


----------



## Beowulf

morituri said:


> I see your 'point' :rofl:


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## FourtyPlus

Beowulf said:


> I was trying to bring a little humor to the situation. Obviously I failed. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.


I thought it was pretty funny and laughed. Playing this conversation in my head "Honey, I know you didn't like the snip and me castrating the dog....how about taking your tonils out?"
Guess I forgot the smily.


----------



## Beowulf

FourtyPlus said:


> I thought it was pretty funny and laughed. Playing this conversation in my head "Honey, I know you didn't like the snip and me castrating the dog....how about taking your tonils out?"
> Guess I forgot the smily.


What's a little surgery between friends


----------



## FourtyPlus

LOL
I do feel guilty even thinking about it. He'd probably be wondering if I have a secret list of body parts to chop off or alter. But without kidding, if he'd stop snoring or if I could find a way to not hear it when he does, this would help us tremendously. I'm looking into the mouth piece for now....


----------



## DailyGrind

So, on Friday...wife had to work...but I had off. She had some weird noises coming from her car, so I told her I'd take it to the shop. Turns out it is some kind of integrated hub/bearings. Can't replace the bearings, without the whole hub assembly. Both front hubs need replacing...but I settled on doing the front right (worse of the two.) The total for just one was $378...which, right before Christmas (and in our financial situation) VERY much sucks.

Because of this, I had my wife return the football jersey the kids got me for Christmas ($115). We'll get a cheap one to replace it (kids will never know.)

So...I start doing bills today....and it occurs to me.....HEY...my wife never said a thing about her year-end bonus! She normally gets around $400. Hasn't said a thing....and definitely didn't deposit it. So....I have to return my Christmas present, pay for her car.....and she gets to KEEP her bonus??!! Mind you...I don't know for SURE she got one....but they always do...and right before Christmas. I'll know for sure, when I do taxes this year....and see that she has extra salary (bonus) on her W-2. Should I mention something to her? Or just add it to the list of things to discuss with the lawyer? My bonus, in March, will be SUBSTANTIALLY more than hers. Does that mean I get to keep all of mine??!!


----------



## Eli-Zor

What's yours is hers what's hers is yours , ask for the money. Of course if she kept it for herself or spent it on herself then yours is to do the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

Eli-Zor said:


> What's yours is hers what's hers is yours , ask for the money. Of course if she kept it for herself or spent it on herself then yours is to do the same.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah...what I'm wondering is if she spent the money on whoever she's been talking to in her car. 

I have my lawyer consultation tomorrow.

At this point...I'm thinking...she doesn't want to share HER bonus...damned if I'm sharing mine. I was working up a budget, where we could split costs...and equally divide whatever is left over from my bonus (after catching up on bills/taxes)....to carry us through the year.....IF we separated. NOW.....I'll talk to the lawyer....if we separate BEFORE I get my bonus.....can I just catch up on the bills....whatever is left over, will carry ME through the rest of the year!

I've done such a horrible job of keeping my findings to myself...I don't want to blow this. IF she is withholding money from the family, and that gives me legal standing...I don't want to lose that. On the other hand....we really COULD use the money.

The amazing thing is....with the promotion I got last year, and the bonus in March....we are on the verge of relatively "easy street"....FINALLY. F$%K if she isn't blowing it!!


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## Sindo

DailyGrind said:


> So, on Friday...wife had to work...but I had off. She had some weird noises coming from her car, so I told her I'd take it to the shop. Turns out it is some kind of integrated hub/bearings. Can't replace the bearings, without the whole hub assembly. Both front hubs need replacing...but I settled on doing the front right (worse of the two.) The total for just one was $378...which, right before Christmas (and in our financial situation) VERY much sucks.
> 
> Because of this, I had my wife return the football jersey the kids got me for Christmas ($115). We'll get a cheap one to replace it (kids will never know.)
> 
> So...I start doing bills today....and it occurs to me.....HEY...my wife never said a thing about her year-end bonus! She normally gets around $400. Hasn't said a thing....and definitely didn't deposit it. So....I have to return my Christmas present, pay for her car.....and she gets to KEEP her bonus??!! Mind you...I don't know for SURE she got one....but they always do...and right before Christmas. I'll know for sure, when I do taxes this year....and see that she has extra salary (bonus) on her W-2. Should I mention something to her? Or just add it to the list of things to discuss with the lawyer? My bonus, in March, will be SUBSTANTIALLY more than hers. Does that mean I get to keep all of mine??!!


Just leave it for the lawyer. Getting into an argument about it now is not worth your time.

Are you still trying to do the 180?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

Sindo said:


> Just leave it for the lawyer. Getting into an argument about it now is not worth your time.
> 
> Are you still trying to do the 180?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah...still doing the 180, for all it is worth. As I've said before, though....I don't really see how the 180 is much different from how we've been treating each other for the past two years. We pretty much only talk about kid-related stuff. No discussions about the future or relationship. No more talk about the "other phone." She's back to not even saying goodnight to me, when she goes to bed. BUT...starting three nights ago, I started going to our bed to sleep, again. She hasn't objected...but, it's not like we are cuddling, or anything...so.....so close to her...but, so far. {sigh}

Right now...I'm planning the consult with the lawyer tomorrow...and see if she even cares to go to the rescheduled MC on Jan 7th. If she doesn't want to go...it all becomes crystal clear.


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## working_together

Beowulf said:


> I used to snore a lot too. My wife was such an angel and never complained but she had "Morticia Adams eyes" from lack of sleep. I was a bit overweight and had problems with my tonsils. I lost weight and when they took out my tonsils they also took out my uvula as well. Now I don't snore at all. And because I don't have a uvula anymore I no longer have a gag reflex and can deep throat a broomstick. Bonus points! :rofl:


My husband used to snore, it drove me crazy, I'd have to nudge him, and then rush back to sleep. He tried the c-pap (sp?) machine, he hated it, it was like a scuba diving outfit lol. So he had his uvula out (I really felt bad, he lost 10 pounds in a week from not eating). He still has a gagging problem, not as bad though. He's recently lost 40 pounds (was a bit overweight), and that seems to have worked, also the fact we have two kids draining our energy, I basically conk out and don't hear the snoring as much.


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## working_together

Daily, this is such a mess, I wish you all the best. It's sad that because of the way she treats you, tells you nothing, it has driven you to paranoia, you can't continue this way.


while reading some of your posts, an old movie came to mind where the couple were divorcing, and basically went ballistic, and destroyed their house. I laughed, but really it's not funny.

I just can't believe you took that shirt back, she shouldn't have let you do that, and the fact that she gets a yearly x-mas bonus and doesn't tell you....Really? hubby gets one every year, if he didn't get one this year, I would hear about it, he'd be *****ing about it all over the house.

And I'd be worried if she's having a conversation with herself, that's just strange in itself.


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## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> Daily, this is such a mess, I wish you all the best. It's sad that because of the way she treats you, tells you nothing, it has driven you to paranoia, you can't continue this way.
> 
> 
> while reading some of your posts, an old movie came to mind where the couple were divorcing, and basically went ballistic, and destroyed their house. I laughed, but really it's not funny.
> 
> I just can't believe you took that shirt back, she shouldn't have let you do that, and the fact that she gets a yearly x-mas bonus and doesn't tell you....Really? hubby gets one every year, if he didn't get one this year, I would hear about it, he'd be *****ing about it all over the house.
> 
> And I'd be worried if she's having a conversation with herself, that's just strange in itself.


Yeah...it's the paranoia that is killing me. I read into EVERYTHING...good and bad. She's nice sometimes, and then others...acts like I'm not even there. Like last night. Once again, walks right by me, on her way to bed....not a word. WTF?? No "goodnight??" on Christmas??

As for the jersey...she actually took it back...and then, get this....bought herself some new shoes!! So, once again...I have NO present at all for Christmas. Nothing new...I've not gotten anything from her for YEARS...for birthday/Christmas/Anniversary. Last October (right before I found out about the emails to the OM), I got her a full hour massage, and pedicure, at our healthclub. She never thanked me....went....came home...not a word. I, of course....didn't get a thing. That was actually one of the things we were arguing about, at the winery. She claims she thanked me...but I must not have heard. I'm thinking...gee....isn't the thank you supposed to be NOTICEABLE enough that the other person actually hears it? What's the point of an under-breath thank you? Next day is when I found out about the emails.


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## warlock07

Wow... That is so sh!tty. Ask her about the bonus instead of penting up your anger about it..


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## Shaggy

Daily, I'm glad your seeing a lawyer finally. You've tried, you've spied, you've talked, you're done everything you can.

bottom line: she isn't interested in working on things.

Time for you to grow and move in a new better direction.


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## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Yeah...it's the paranoia that is killing me. I read into EVERYTHING...good and bad. She's nice sometimes, and then others...acts like I'm not even there. Like last night. Once again, walks right by me, on her way to bed....not a word. WTF?? No "goodnight??" on Christmas??
> 
> As for the jersey...she actually took it back...and then, get this....bought herself some new shoes!! So, once again...I have NO present at all for Christmas. Nothing new...I've not gotten anything from her for YEARS...for birthday/Christmas/Anniversary. Last October (right before I found out about the emails to the OM), I got her a full hour massage, and pedicure, at our healthclub. She never thanked me....went....came home...not a word. I, of course....didn't get a thing. That was actually one of the things we were arguing about, at the winery. She claims she thanked me...but I must not have heard. I'm thinking...gee....isn't the thank you supposed to be NOTICEABLE enough that the other person actually hears it? What's the point of an under-breath thank you? Next day is when I found out about the emails.


This sounds like a very selfish self-absorbed woman. I can't understand how you're still with her. This one needs a reality check in the worst way possible. For your own sanity you need to detach and live for yourself for a change. Geesh!


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## the guy

Now thats a deal breaker....even for the-guy!

It is seriously screwed up that the jersey was not exchacnged. Never mess with a man and his team 

Please find the reciept take the shoes back and GET THAT JERSEY!

Dont say anything about the bounes or the shoes, just take the shoes and return them and get the jersey!

A small act of defience on your part....let the lawyer take care of the small stuff.LOL


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## FourtyPlus

WHAT???? She bought herself shoes with the money from YOUR returned present that was supposed to be to fix HER car?


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## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> WHAT???? She bought herself shoes with the money from YOUR returned present that was supposed to be to fix HER car?


Turns out she bought me a cheaper replacement. The original was embroidered....so she bought me a decaled one, instead. Of course...she bought one two sizes too small. I suppose it is the thought that counts. In fairness...she DID need new shoes. BUT...the whole reason I told her to take mine back was because, in light of the $377 spent on her car...I couldn't justify spending that much on a jersey. So...with the $115 returned, replaced with a $35 version...and $40 shoes....we have $40 bucks to put toward the car. She normally IS pretty frugal. She doesn't spend on herself TOO much. 

So...I guess I am just venting. I'm fixated on Christmas being over....lawyer tomorrow....and wondering where this is all going. Just a bit of self-reflection, I guess.


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## the guy

At least you got a cheaper, smaller jersey.

Maybe you can still take the shoes back and get a cheaper smaller pair?

I guess at this point it all really doesn't matter. Your W continues to lie and you need to move on. So be good and stay strong. You will want to open up on what the lawyer said, thats just you, so please do your best to say nothing of your plan or what the lawyer told you.

You have been on here long enough to know "never reveal your game plan"


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## FourtyPlus

It's the no christmas present, no good night, no nothing to acknowledge what you are going through and no sharing of the christmas bonus - I think i would have to vent too.

$40 for shoes = pretty frugal!


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## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> It's the no christmas present, no good night, no nothing to acknowledge what you are going through and no sharing of the christmas bonus - I think i would have to vent too.
> 
> $40 for shoes = pretty frugal!


I'm not going to say anything to her about the bonus, until the end of this week. I'm holding out hope that she is just getting it this week.

As to the no Good Night...yup...been dealing with that for two years. I thought we addressed that, on D-Day. She got better, but...for whatever reason....we are back to the night-time snub, again. Difference is....the past two years...I had my head buried in the sand. Once I yanked it out.....this kind of thing bugs me even more.


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## DailyGrind

Well...had my consult with the lawyer today. I don't know how we will afford this. It just SUCKS. This was our breakout year, financially. Now...it is on the brink of falling completely apart.

Just got done telling W about my appointment...and that we need to start making some decisions. She seemed a bit surprised, but then seemed to just take it in. I asked her if she was still okay with 50/50 custody? She was like..."I don't know...i guess. I don't even know what's going on. Do I need to see a lawyer?" I told her my lawyer would answer her questions, but he is looking out for MY interests. When the final paperwork needs to be signed, she should probably see a lawyer...but that would come out of HER budget. Don't know how she could afford a retainer. My lawyer comes through one of my work benefits. I told her I don't think we need lawyers to at least agree on the sharing of custody. She said, I guess not. I asked her if she would sign something affirming 50/50 split. She said "at some point, I guess."

Told her I assumed she wasn't interested in seeing the counselor anymore. She said..."well...not NOW!" I told her the counselor informed me she could still counsel us on communication, as we clearly need to still communicate due to the kids.

I also told her, based on lawyer advice...since the mortgage is entirely in my name, I would be moving to retain the house. No way I would be letting her use of the home, while I am the only one responsible for the mortgage.

Right now, she seems very calm....no concerns. She's nodding, and affirming everything I'm saying....but doesn't appear upset at all. She could be realing inside, for all I know....or doing mental cartwheels. THIS is what has dogged us our entire relationship....you just NEVER know what she is thinking.

Lastly, I told her she could stop this by reaffirming to the marriage. But, I was done living a loveless marriage. I would be moving forward.

My spirits are crushed, right now. Nerves are shot. I don't know what I thought would happen....but I guess I didn't expect her to just jump in line on this. So very sad, right now!!


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## warlock07

She doesn't even hate you. Just apathy. Something broke in her after the confrontation


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## DailyGrind

I'm thinking about writing this to her:

_W,
There are a couple things that are important you understand:
A)	I don’t want this, but it is certainly prudent of me to consult a divorce lawyer, at this time, to get a feel for what that course of action would entail. 
B)	I love you. I always have, with all my heart. I’ve NEVER been unfaithful to you (either in mind or body.) However, you have acknowledged that the love and intimacy are gone, for you. And, I think we can both agree that the trust has left as well. Your actions have not shown me much reason for hope.
Is this the right environment in which we should raise our children? Are we modeling an unhealthy marriage that they will perceive as normal, and one day emulate themselves? I love my children, with all my heart…and I know you do as well. I long for the days when they rushed us for the “group hug”, upon seeing us hugging. That all ended last year. Why? Why did you choose to build your resentments, instead of discussing with me? I have no real answers…and you’ve offered so little explanation.
I’m praying that you and I choose a course of action that puts us on the path to an emotionally healthier future that, once chosen, gives us the strength to put aside our personal grievances…for the sake of a common investment in our children’s wellbeing. 
There are two paths. One offers hope for a strong family, together, raising our children with the joy and love that only a committed couple can provide. The other, offers uncertainty; but hopefully, ultimately, a compassionate guidance from two separately nurturing parents. Of course, there is a third path…where disagreements and bitterness direct our actions. I’m sure we are better than that.
As I said tonight, I can no longer live in a loveless marriage. I have so much more love I could offer. I can be a better husband, man and father. Everyone has room for improvement. But, I cannot do so in the face of such apathy. 
If separating is our destiny, so be it. I have resigned myself that this may be. There will be a time for lawyers and bargaining. But, I would hope we can at least agree on a shared/joint legal (and physical) custody of our children. We can work on exactly how many days are spent where; how we split holidays/vacations….but can we at least agree that the goal would be for shared custody? How we raise our children will be the cornerstone of everything else we would need to deal with. Can I get this commitment from you? I would appreciate your response on this issue, if nothing else._

What do you guys think?


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## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> She doesn't even hate you. Just apathy. Something broke in her after the confrontation


Yeah..either she is in some kind of fog, or is REALLY that mad about me putting the VAR in her car. Or whatever is behind mystery door #3.


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## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> I'm thinking about writing this to her:
> 
> _W,
> There are a couple things that are important you understand:
> A)	I don’t want this, but it is certainly prudent of me to consult a divorce lawyer, at this time, to get a feel for what that course of action would entail.
> B)	I love you. I always have, with all my heart. I’ve NEVER been unfaithful to you (either in mind or body.) However, you have acknowledged that the love and intimacy are gone, for you. And, I think we can both agree that the trust has left as well. Your actions have not shown me much reason for hope.
> Is this the right environment in which we should raise our children? Are we modeling an unhealthy marriage that they will perceive as normal, and one day emulate themselves? I love my children, with all my heart…and I know you do as well. I long for the days when they rushed us for the “group hug”, upon seeing us hugging. That all ended last year. Why? Why did you choose to build your resentments, instead of discussing with me? I have no real answers…and you’ve offered so little explanation.
> I’m praying that you and I choose a course of action that puts us on the path to an emotionally healthier future that, once chosen, gives us the strength to put aside our personal grievances…for the sake of a common investment in our children’s wellbeing.
> There are two paths. One offers hope for a strong family, together, raising our children with the joy and love that only a committed couple can provide. The other, offers uncertainty; but hopefully, ultimately, a compassionate guidance from two separately nurturing parents. Of course, there is a third path…where disagreements and bitterness direct our actions. I’m sure we are better than that.
> As I said tonight, I can no longer live in a loveless marriage. I have so much more love I could offer. I can be a better husband, man and father. Everyone has room for improvement. But, I cannot do so in the face of such apathy.
> If separating is our destiny, so be it. I have resigned myself that this may be. There will be a time for lawyers and bargaining. But, I would hope we can at least agree on a shared/joint legal (and physical) custody of our children. We can work on exactly how many days are spent where; how we split holidays/vacations….but can we at least agree that the goal would be for shared custody? How we raise our children will be the cornerstone of everything else we would need to deal with. Can I get this commitment from you? I would appreciate your response on this issue, if nothing else._
> 
> What do you guys think?


Sounds good to me, don't see how it could hurt. Not sure how soon you should send it though. Think you should let her think on it awhile? See if she is sad or happy in the morning.


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## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Sounds good to me, don't see how it could hurt. Not sure how soon you should send it though. Think you should let her think on it awhile? See if she is sad or happy in the morning.


I have no idea. I feel like I've done everything wrong the past 5 years.....how could I possibly pick the right move? I'll take any advice at this point.


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## Sindo

Not quite 180, but then it's probably a good thing if you make your position absolutely clear. And I suspect the two of you may communicate better in writing.

If you're going to send something, send it now. Don't give her too much time to stew. I don't think you need to gauge her mood before sending it. If you feel it needs to be sent, then the sooner the better.


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## FourtyPlus

DailyGrind said:


> I have no idea. I feel like I've done everything wrong the past 5 years.....how could I possibly pick the right move? I'll take any advice at this point.


I'd send that letter asap. It looks to me like you have been on egg shells around her for way too long, trying to figure what she thinks. You wrote a pretty good letter than leaves her the option to work on the marriage or go down the divorce road. It must be appearant to her that you don't want the latter and that you love her!
I also agree that written communication might be the way to go because it might make it easier for her to respond.


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## DailyGrind

Well, she got up early his morning, out the door at least half an hour before normal....avoiding me and the children. I left her the letter (which she read), but no response. I probably should have put in the letter to get her head out of her asz, with whatever is going on at her work!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FourtyPlus

30 minutes earlier to have time to talk to someone about the letter...


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## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> 30 minutes earlier to have time to talk to someone about the letter...


I was thinking the same. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

Well...I know she went to work. But then....I just don't know what dangers her work held for me. This is tough....we have at LEAST 3 more months before we can POSSIBLY afford for one of us to move out. That is three more months of this emotional tug of war.

Anyone think that letter was a mistake? Was it weak?


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## Shaggy

I don't think the letter was weak, but I think it's pointless.

you're wife seems to be almost over the edge emotionally, like she's so far gone she no longer feels things.

Is it possible she's taking some medication to deal with emotional issues? Something that's got her so unfeeling, she just isn't reacting normally.

Yes, going to work early is a huge red flag since so many of the questions you have intersect there.

She's not talking, she's not reacting - she's just not there.


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## DailyGrind

Shaggy said:


> I don't think the letter was weak, but I think it's pointless.
> 
> you're wife seems to be almost over the edge emotionally, like she's so far gone she no longer feels things.
> 
> Is it possible she's taking some medication to deal with emotional issues? Something that's got her so unfeeling, she just isn't reacting normally.
> 
> Yes, going to work early is a huge red flag since so many of the questions you have intersect there.
> 
> She's not talking, she's not reacting - she's just not there.


I agree...it is probably pointless. She has always been pretty absent emotionally. I originally thought it was cool. Nothing rattles her. I'd had prior relationships where you always had to walk on eggshells.....cause everything was taken personally. This one seemed like a welcome break. Everything just flowed off her back. I never really heard flak unless I did something that REALLY bothered her. Little did I know, that was not the case. She apparently has been internalizing all the little things, making huge walls with them. 

I've come to realize she really is a MUCH more vulnerable individual, than I thought. What little she has told me is that she has been bothered by all the times I've been "rude" to her.....but can't present ONE example. So...I'm assuming the lack of sex was because I might have been "rude" to her...and she was holding that against me for MONTHS. I mean....it wasn't like I was always rude to her. But instead of getting over the few times a year, that I might have been (in her eyes)....or discussing with me.....she, instead...added more mortar to her wall. This is the closest I can fathom our breakdown. I mean...anyone that knows me....knows that I adored my wife. How bad could I have been? How GREAT would it have been...if she just talked to me??

No medication that I am aware of. Just normal. It's the reason I so infrequently approached HER to talk. It just seemed like wasted breath. Of course...if I'd realized how dire things really were getting, 5 years ago......I would have definitely insisted on some kind of counseling for us. Now, may just be too late....and everybody suffers for it.


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## aug

maybe not too late. The divorce is not finalized. Continue to try and let her know upfront you're trying.

Keep 2 parallel tracks going. One of them is going to work. Let her know this.


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## Chaparral

aug said:


> maybe not too late. The divorce is not finalized. Continue to try and let her know upfront you're trying.
> 
> Keep 2 parallel tracks going. One of them is going to work. Let her know this.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## DailyGrind

Well...it appears that WW is working later again tonight. I've been taking care of the kids during their Winter break. I've pretty much NEVER seen her work late, as she does kid pickup (I normally drop them off)...so she has to leave by 4:30 to get them. So far...every day (since break started) she's been there late. Last night was until 7:00. This morning, after our talk last night...she went in over half an hour early. Here it is 5:00 and she still hasn't left.

Who wants to bet she doesn't respond at all to my letter? That would be typical. I wish we had the money to start the process right now. Not that I can even fathom what that process would look like. But...living in the same house with her is SOOO emotionally draining! I have SOOO much work to catch up on...but just sooo struggle to focus. My weight has dropped just below 190 lbs (for the first time in 15 years.) Beginning of this year I was at 210. I dropped about 5, on my own, before this all hit. Since October, I've lost about 15 lbs. Just have NO appetite. Why the hell did I (wear my emotions on my sleeve) ever marry such an emotionless person??!!


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## Catherine602

Daily I read most but not all of your thread did not have more to offer until now. You are missing something important here. You did not marry an emotionless woman. The fact that you have not seen this after reading the emails may indicate one of the problems on your side. I can't tell what her side is. She is clearly not what you think she is. Can you not see that? 

It is telling that she was so open to this OM. Was she ever as communicative with you at any time in the past? Why was she so open with this other man? What was it about him that made her open up? You said she seemed to be fairly emotionless, the emails you shared seemed to come from a person who did not seem to have problems communicating nor did she seem emotionaly closed, if you can tell such things from the written word.

What impresses me about your post is that you may never have known a major part of her. Either you did not pay attention and accepted her on a surface level and never delved any deeper or she hid herself from you. You said you were glad she did not have much in the way emotional neediness as in your past relationships. 

She may have felt that you would not love her if she revealed her emotionally needy side. I think that you mentioned that the relationship was easy because she seemed so unruffled. You may have somehow communicated to her that you would not welcome that side of her. 

That may have inhibited the growth of deep intimacy and love because she had to be what you expected and not who she is. This is all wild speculation and I just put it there for your consideration. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

Catherine602 said:


> Daily I read most but not all of your thread did not have more to offer until now.
> 
> It is telling that she was so open to this OM. Was she ever as communicative with you at any time in the past? Why was she so open with this other man? What was it about him that made her open up? You said she seemed to be fairly emotionless, the emails you shared seemed to come from a person who did not seem to have problems communicating nor did she seem emotionaly closed, if you can tell such things from the written word.
> 
> What impresses me about your post is that you may never have known a major part of her. Either you did not pay attention and accepted her on a surface level and never delved any deeper or she hid herself from you. You said you were glad she did not have much in the way emotional neediness as in your past relationships.
> 
> She may have felt that you would not love her if she revealed her emotionally needy side. I think that you mentioned that the relationship was easy because she seemed so unruffled. You may have somehow communicated to her that you would not welcome that side of her.
> 
> That may have inhibited the growth of deep intimacy and love because she had to be what you expected and not who she is. This is all wild speculation and I just put it there for your consideration. .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Catherine,

I appreciate the input. I honestly don't think this is the case, though. I think what I meant really was that I was impressed that she didn't seem to take ME too seriously. If I got pissy about something I was working on (some home project, for example) and went on a three minute rant...she didn't seem to get upset at me. If I had to work long hours for my career....didn't seem to bother her. But..the relationship stuff...yeah..that was always an onion to try to unravel. She knew EVERYTHING about me...all my adventures, all my failures/successes. Her...I would get piecemeal. I don't know what it was. Yeah...I did pretty much just accept it...cause I knew she loved me. That's all I needed. I felt I could trust her completely. I never doubted she would be my rock...forever. Obviously...that trust is shattered. I don't think I encouraged her, though, to be "unruffled." I always encourage her to open up to me. I just don't know. Now that my eyes are opened...I know that so much was missing, for so long. I guess I just thought we would get there, over time. I know what to look for next time, I suppose.


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## Shaggy

Daily, you may want to warn the wife of the guy she had been talking too, to let her know you are divorcing. If there is anything between her and him, the OMW can watch for changes in him.


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## aug

DailyGrind said:


> Well...it appears that WW is working later again tonight. I've been taking care of the kids during their Winter break. I've pretty much NEVER seen her work late, as she does kid pickup (I normally drop them off)...so she has to leave by 4:30 to get them. So far...every day (since break started) she's been there late. Last night was until 7:00. This morning, after our talk last night...she went in over half an hour early. Here it is 5:00 and she still hasn't left.
> 
> Who wants to bet she doesn't respond at all to my letter? That would be typical. I wish we had the money to start the process right now. Not that I can even fathom what that process would look like. But...living in the same house with her is SOOO emotionally draining! I have SOOO much work to catch up on...but just sooo struggle to focus. My weight has dropped just below 190 lbs (for the first time in 15 years.) Beginning of this year I was at 210. I dropped about 5, on my own, before this all hit. Since October, I've lost about 15 lbs. Just have NO appetite. Why the hell did I (wear my emotions on my sleeve) ever marry such an emotionless person??!!



Is it possible at all to follow her with your kid in tow? Like tomorrow? 

Or, go to her workplace and be there near the end of her worktime and see if she's at her workplace?

Or, follow her after her work is over at 5pm?

Surprise her and show up -- tell her you're taking her to dinner?


I feel uneasy about your situation. I dont know if she has an OM or she's emotionally detached. Be nice to be able to get a firm answer one way or another.


----------



## DailyGrind

Shaggy said:


> Daily, you may want to warn the wife of the guy she had been talking too, to let her know you are divorcing. If there is anything between her and him, the OMW can watch for changes in him.


yeah...maybe.

As i expected...she came home. No mention of the letter...no indication of wanting to discuss anything. THEN...she makes sandwiches for us, for tomorrow's lunches. WTF?? She hasn't made lunches in a ****'s age. Why now? She used (before the cold heart took over) to make our sandwiches for us a lot. I've seen it maybe once since then...till tonight. F'ng mind games!!


----------



## DailyGrind

aug said:


> Is it possible at all to follow her with your kid in tow? Like tomorrow?
> 
> Or, go to her workplace and be there near the end of her worktime and see if she's at her workplace?
> 
> Or, follow her after her work is over at 5pm?
> 
> Surprise her and show up -- tell her you're taking her to dinner?
> 
> 
> I feel uneasy about your situation. I dont know if she has an OM or she's emotionally detached. Be nice to be able to get a firm answer one way or another.


I know she is there...I have gps on her phone. I just don't know what she is DOING there. I've toyed with getting a PI to observe who she comes out with...or if she goes with anyone for lunch. But..her gps never moves, once she gets there.


----------



## Catherine602

Well don't think you should throw in the towel completely yet. You are trying to figure out why this happened. May I suggest that you not get stuck in that mode? I think it siphons off your mental energy to handle this crisis, continue to work, and keep your head emotionally above water. The why may not help you do those things now but will certainly have to be explored later. 

I think you are doing ok with the way you are handling things. I think you set your bounderies, they are more than reasonable just remember when you set them there is no going back unless you want to be a dog on a leash, metaphorically. .

PS the gps does not move but she is not theathered to it, is she? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Catherine602 said:


> Well don't think you should throw in the towel completely yet. You are trying to figure out why this happened. May I suggest that you not get stuck in that mode? I think it siphons off your mental energy to handle this crisis, continue to work, and keep your head emotionally above water. The why may not help you do those things now but will certainly have to be explored later.
> 
> I think you are doing ok with the way you are handling things. I think you set your bounderies, they are more than reasonable just remember when you set them there is no going back unless you want to be a dog on a leash, metaphorically. .
> 
> PS the gps does not move but she is not theathered to it, is she?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sage, and encouraging, advice. Thanks!


----------



## DailyGrind

So...how do you go about doing an uncontested divorce, if your W won't even discuss the issues? Won't respond to the letter I left her? If we need to agree on issues, but she won't talk about them.....how do I proceed?


----------



## tennisstar

I have read all 33 pages of this thread, and all I have to say, is give up. Your wife left your marriage emotionally a longtime ago. Why are you hitting your head against the wall?

She resents you. You don't trust her, with good reason.

Do you want to live your life like this?

I think,from what you've said, she's in this because she can't afford to support herself. End of story. If you want to be used financially, then keep on. Otherwise, give this up and move on with your life!!!!


----------



## ShootMePlz!

If the GPS is in the car then you truly only know where her car is not her. She could get into another car with someone else.


----------



## Sindo

I think part of the reason your wife went along with the divorce talk because she has been thinking along the exact same lines in the past. From your first post in this thread:



DailyGrind said:


> C) After I left for work, she emailed the following to this guy after he asked if it was a "divorce/separation" talk (which stings the most):
> 
> "_I'm pretty certain it will be. I don't think either of us can hang in there. He doesn't really even have a good reason for marrying me. I'm sure he liked the idea of me but never actually liked me and most certainly has never "gotten" me. I can only be nice and take crap for so long. I feel like he has taken advantage of that for many years. And I don't like what it has done to me over the years. If you had something solid to begin with then try to fix things, but I don't think we ever had that. I know I've suggested being unhappy but nothing like this. Sorry to unload. _"
> 
> ...........
> 
> She just posted THIS to the guy:
> "_It sounds like you've has it pretty rough too. I hope you can get through it. Kids do change things. Its even harder when parents can't be on the same page about how to raise kids. And then there are competitions about who does more. so much resentment over the years. a year and a half ago I decided I was done just taking it and just kind of cut off emotionally but that's a really cold way to live. I was hoping to stay together for the kids but we're just setting a bad example for them. _ "


Rewriting history? Maybe so. But the fact is this has been on her mind too.

As for why she isn't giving an answer immediately on custody? Even if she had thought about it before, having the divorce bomb dropped is a lot to process in a day. 

Do you still have marriage counselling scheduled? I would agree with the idea of running two tracks in parallel. Hope for and work toward the best, but prepare yourself for the worst.


----------



## DailyGrind

ShootMePlz! said:


> If the GPS is in the car then you truly only know where her car is not her. She could get into another car with someone else.


No... It's her phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

She's probably already guessed that you have it being tracked. She has another phone besides. Why would she want to make you more suspicious that you already are?


----------



## Elastic

Hi DG,
I am a long time "lurker", first-time poster. I am surprised that you didn't pick up on this, nor has anyone mentioned it. You know how you've been really confused as to why W became warmer towards you on two occasions (the sandwiches & the friendly weekend)? Well to me it's clear that she's reacting to your letters, she may not be responding back verbally, but she is responding in action. I am not sure why its so hard for her to communicate, but it appears she does have a very active internal emotional world, and as you noted in one of her posts, she is far more sensitive that you had thought. My advice is, rather than lament what she is NOT telling you, start listening to what she IS telling you. Like when she said she was really hurt by you being "rude". It seems you dismissed that as over-reacting. All those "little" things that seem like nothing to you might seem like a big deal to her. Why not take it on board, and show her you are really listening, and not just dismissing what she has to say? Perhaps you don't see yourself as clearly as you think you do. I love the letters you wrote to her, I think they are very loving, and honest, and I am sure that she is affected by them. I feel like your marriage is salvageable, because there's still love, and so much of your troubles is based on misunderstanding. I think you should keep writing letters to her, and see if that can ignite some communication/honesty. Good luck!


----------



## DailyGrind

Elastic said:


> Hi DG,
> I am a long time "lurker", first-time poster. I am surprised that you didn't pick up on this, nor has anyone mentioned it. You know how you've been really confused as to why W became warmer towards you on two occasions (the sandwiches & the friendly weekend)? Well to me it's clear that she's reacting to your letters, she may not be responding back verbally, but she is responding in action. I am not sure why its so hard for her to communicate, but it appears she does have a very active internal emotional world, and as you noted in one of her posts, she is far more sensitive that you had thought. My advice is, rather than lament what she is NOT telling you, start listening to what she IS telling you. Like when she said she was really hurt by you being "rude". It seems you dismissed that as over-reacting. All those "little" things that seem like nothing to you might seem like a big deal to her. Why not take it on board, and show her you are really listening, and not just dismissing what she has to say? Perhaps you don't see yourself as clearly as you think you do. I love the letters you wrote to her, I think they are very loving, and honest, and I am sure that she is affected by them. I feel like your marriage is salvageable, because there's still love, and so much of your troubles is based on misunderstanding. I think you should keep writing letters to her, and see if that can ignite some communication/honesty. Good luck!


Thanks, Elastic. I'm honored that you opened your first post to me. I can't disagree with anything you wrote. The only thing is....


Elastic said:


> Perhaps you don't see yourself as clearly as you think you do.


I'm sure none of us really do. Isn't that why it is important for one's SO to give us feedback? I know that these last few months, I have done FAR more self-analysis/reflecting then I ever have. I look back at my posts from last year [Last Year's Posts], when I first started grappling with the coldness. I read those posts and realize how ANGRY I came across. I was so fixated on the lack of sex/intimacy....and what she was doing to ME. I wasn't understanding that I needed to be looking more at US. I let her lack of communication, direct MY approaches to her. I look back at so many opportunities I could have taken us in a different direction. Of course....A) knowing we needed to do so; and B) even still....I would be limited by whether she would have communicated with me....no guarantees there.

I will take your advice and write her more letters. As to the sandwiches....it appears she made HERS and two for the kids. She didn't make one for me. So...I only give that a 1/2 credit.


----------



## Sindo

If it is the letters, maybe she could be encouraged to write letters back, even if just to air her grievances. Your letters have been well done, but it's one-sided communication. It would be great if you could establish a dialogue through letters.


----------



## Jellybeans

Daily--did she end all contact with that other dude? The one from your DD's dance class?

If you gave her that lteter and she didn't respond then that kinda says where her head is at. Either she doesn't care enough or is still processing it. Still, her non-answers to you and non-response speak VOLUMES.

Not cool.

I am sorry you are going through this. She sounds like my exhusband who never wanted to talk about anything. I wrote him a similar letter(s) and one time the most I got was a text message with the letter "M' on it. 

LIKE WTF does that mean?


----------



## katc

@ DailyGrind ... LOVE that letter.

I am the wife you speak of - I don't love my husband. Don't really care for him at all.

We are not intimate and have not been for 2 years. And I'm okay with that.

I have no intentions of meeting another man - I can't be bothered. But I am sad that I never had the marriage that my parents had, my siblings have and now my nieces. 

Perhaps it's me, perhaps I don't know how to love. 

I can only wish that my husband would talk things over, address the things you have addressed in your letter. He just prefers to "follow my lead", and live like this indefinitely. How sad.

I try to discuss - my husband cares not to face reality.

Counselling didn't work for us because I just didn't care anymore. All was gone ... for me anyway. The love I had for him has been replaced with anger.

I say send the letter.

And I'm so sorry you are going through this. But know that it is very difficult to live in a relationship where the love and intimacy is lost.


----------



## DailyGrind

Jellybeans said:


> Daily--did she end all contact with that other dude? The one from your DD's dance class?
> 
> If you gave her that lteter and she didn't respond then that kinda says where her head is at. Either she doesn't care enough or is still processing it. Still, her non-answers to you and non-response speak VOLUMES.
> 
> Not cool.
> 
> I am sorry you are going through this. She sounds like my exhusband who never wanted to talk about anything. I wrote him a similar letter(s) and one time the most I got was a text message with the letter "M' on it.
> 
> LIKE WTF does that mean?


As far as I know...the contact with the OM stopped. But then...if she has another phone....who knows. She says it stopped.


----------



## Jellybeans

katc said:


> @ DailyGrind ... LOVE that letter.
> 
> I am the wife you speak of -* I don't love my husband. Don't really care for him at all.*
> 
> We are not intimate and have not been for 2 years. And I'm okay with that.
> 
> Perhaps it's me, perhaps I don't know how to love.
> 
> Counselling didn't work for us because I just didn't care anymore. All was gone ... for me anyway. The love I had for him has been replaced with anger.


Wow. That is cold as ice. If you don't love him, why not just divorce him and set him free so he can find someone who does "care for him at all" and so he can be happy since you don't love him?


----------



## Jellybeans

DailyGrind said:


> As far as I know...the contact with the OM stopped. But then...if she has another phone....who knows. She says it stopped.


Can you get a copy of her call logs/call history?

If she is having an A, you have zero chance to work on your marriage.

Nonetheless: if she's unresponsive to your needs/concerns, then you need to decide whether you want to live in a one-sided marriage. It's not fair to you.


----------



## DailyGrind

katc said:


> @ DailyGrind ... LOVE that letter.
> 
> I am the wife you speak of - I don't love my husband. Don't really care for him at all.
> 
> We are not intimate and have not been for 2 years. And I'm okay with that.
> 
> I have no intentions of meeting another man - I can't be bothered. But I am sad that I never had the marriage that my parents had, my siblings have and now my nieces.
> 
> Perhaps it's me, perhaps I don't know how to love.
> 
> I can only wish that my husband would talk things over, address the things you have addressed in your letter. He just prefers to "follow my lead", and live like this indefinitely. How sad.
> 
> I try to discuss - my husband cares not to face reality.
> 
> Counselling didn't work for us because I just didn't care anymore. All was gone ... for me anyway. The love I had for him has been replaced with anger.
> 
> I say send the letter.
> 
> And I'm so sorry you are going through this. But know that it is very difficult to live in a relationship where the love and intimacy is lost.


Katc - you say your love has been replaced with anger, and that he just follows your lead. I did that for almost two years. I tried talking to her (no response), going to our minister for counseling (but he was very busy, and had little time for us.) So...I DID try...but then just buried my head. We couldn't really afford REAL counseling until this next year. So, I hoped we could get to that point...start counseling....be able for afford to do more together...take US trips (for instance). My promotion, last April...and the bonuses that position generates make next year what I thought would be our financial "break-out" year. Every year, thereafter to just get better and better. I should be a VP within five years...when it REALLY gets better. Alas....we didn't quite make it. So, now....yes...I've ripped my head out of the sand...and determined to do better. BUT...it still comes down to HER communication style. I can't do anything, without knowing where her head is.

Katc - I don't know what got you to your current anger state (I'll go back now, and read your posts). But...if YOUR husband suddenly recommitted to you...and was willing to address the issues....would that make an impression on you now? But then...you say you HAVE tried to discuss. So, really....your husband is like my wife. Won't deal, and won't communicate. What is their problem???


----------



## DailyGrind

Jellybeans said:


> Can you get a copy of her call logs/call history?
> 
> If she is having an A, you have zero chance to work on your marriage.
> 
> Nonetheless: if she's unresponsive to your needs/concerns, then you need to decide whether you want to live in a one-sided marriage. It's not fair to you.


Oh...I DO have access. Nothing happening on her phone. In fact, so much NOT happening on her phone, that I suspected she must have another phone. That is why I dropped the VAR in her car. I heard her talking on a "phone" for an entire hour (on her ride home.) Here's links to excerps from her conversation : Talking in her car When I confronted her...she clammed up, and claimed she "frequently talks to herself in the car." Then she refused to say anything else, because I "violated her privacy." I know I did...and apologized.......I've not used it since. But then...I'm pretty well convinced she was having a CONVERSATION with someone....not talking to herself. AND....no calls on her phone log. So....I suspect SOMETHING is going on at work. But...can't prove a thing, unless I want to invest in a PI. All a PI would be able to see is if she is leaving work early...or going to lunch with someone. It might not even be an OM/OW....it could just be a toxic friend, that is influencing her marital decisions. I don't know.


----------



## aug

Dadof3 said:


> She's probably already guessed that you have it being tracked. She has another phone besides. Why would she want to make you more suspicious that you already are?



Dadof3 has a very good point here. She does have a second phone. And she knows you're tracking her.

So, it easy for her to leave the tracked phone at her workplace. She takes her hidden other phone with her to see the OM?

May I suggest you go to her workplace, arrive there early before her scheduled finish time? Hide. See if she leaves the workplace. Follow her to see if she's going home or somewhere else. See if her tracked phone moves.

Another idea: when she comes home, before she gets out of her car, quickly go out to the car. Search her, under her panties, her shoes, ankles, her purse, bag, etc. Then search the car inside out. See if you can find the 2nd phone before she hides it. Tell her why you're doing it, that you want peace of mind about her other secret phone and that you want your marriage to work.


----------



## Chaparral

Don't agree with the search part at all. You've already let her know everything you are doing to your detriment. You haveto be calm and thoughtful instead of constantly grasping at straws. You jumped the gun with the VAR. Best let her think you've given up the spying bit.

Put a gps on her car. If she has another phone she can leave the one you are monitoring anywhere. 

Somehow you have to know where she is going early to work and getting home late. Have you tried calling the office early, at lunch time, after regular working hours or having someone else call.

Have you tried putting the VAR back in her car, in her bedroom, bathroom?

Can you drop by her work to see when she leaves?

Of course I don't see the point if she's neither willing to talk to you or go to MC. Prepare your self for a better life if she doesn't want to be married.


----------



## Chaparral

""It sounds like you've has it pretty rough too. I hope you can get through it. Kids do change things. Its even harder when parents can't be on the same page about how to raise kids. And then there are competitions about who does more."

Did you ever show these things to OMW?


----------



## Beowulf

If she is going to such great lengths to continue the affair with the OM while simultaneously detaching from you then I say you need to file for divorce before she will see the light. If you have communicated to her that neither one of you can afford a divorce right now then she is probably going to continue along the current path for as long as she can. What incentive does she have to change anything? I think the longer you wait to file the less chance you have to make things right.

Daily, I'm sorry you're having to go through this but right now you are enabling her behavior by waiting on the divorce. If you want any hope of saving your marriage file for divorce now. If you want to save your sanity file for divorce now. If you want to stop your children from being exposed to such a toxic environment file for divorce now.

Just my $.02


----------



## aug

chapparal said:


> Don't agree with the search part at all. You've already let her know everything you are doing to your detriment. You haveto be calm and thoughtful instead of constantly grasping at straws. You jumped the gun with the VAR. Best let her think you've given up the spying bit.
> 
> Put a gps on her car. If she has another phone she can leave the one you are monitoring anywhere.
> 
> Somehow you have to know where she is going early to work and getting home late. Have you tried calling the office early, at lunch time, after regular working hours or having someone else call.
> 
> Have you tried putting the VAR back in her car, in her bedroom, bathroom?
> 
> Can you drop by her work to see when she leaves?
> 
> Of course I don't see the point if she's neither willing to talk to you or go to MC. Prepare your self for a better life if she doesn't want to be married.



Yes, I agree with you -- the search part is bad advice on my part.

The GPS on the car is a good idea.


----------



## aug

I dont have experience with this GPS but have read decent reviews on it.

Amazon.com: Low cost, real time GPS tracker with advanced features: GPS & Navigation


----------



## katc

@DailyGrind - I have been married only 3 years. I married for the first time later in life.

It was just the constant negative attitude, failure to communicate, disrespect, criticism, the need to control (which I didn't see until recently) that over the time we have been together has eaten away at me.

When I addressed it with him he said he would change, would go for counselling, none of which worked. He would do anything for me he says, but then he reverts back to his old ways.

It's been a roller coaster ride ever since. Say's he'll change, doesn't, we e-mail about it, he says he'll make changes ... again ... and he doesn't ... same story over and over.

I don't profess to be perfect, but I certainly don't treat him as he treats me.

The respect is gone, the love is completely gone and will not ever return - there is nothing he could do to make that change. Ever.

May I ask, why the "snooping"? Who cares what she is doing. Let her do it. 

Why do you care where her head is at - it sounds like she's opted out of the marriage awhile ago. I don't care where hubby's head is at - I know he loves me to death, would do anything for me (actions speak louder than words), he's a great guy - albeit moody on top of all the other stuff. 

Make yourself happy - God knows I can't wait until the day comes that I can do the same. But I wouldn't be happy homeless so for now, this is how it has to be. 

If it were financially feasible for me to leave I would. I have alot to lose if we sell - this works, for now. Living as friends, but I fear it's about to make me insane. There are days I can't stand the sight of him, and everything he does grates on my nerves.

it sucks, but it works - for now.


----------



## DailyGrind

aug said:


> Dadof3 has a very good point here. She does have a second phone. And she knows you're tracking her.
> 
> So, it easy for her to leave the tracked phone at her workplace. She takes her hidden other phone with her to see the OM?
> 
> May I suggest you go to her workplace, arrive there early before her scheduled finish time? Hide. See if she leaves the workplace. Follow her to see if she's going home or somewhere else. See if her tracked phone moves.
> 
> Another idea: when she comes home, before she gets out of her car, quickly go out to the car. Search her, under her panties, her shoes, ankles, her purse, bag, etc. Then search the car inside out. See if you can find the 2nd phone before she hides it. Tell her why you're doing it, that you want peace of mind about her other secret phone and that you want your marriage to work.


I may try a PI....but really....I'm not sure I need to know any more. Fortunately, for me....she isn't like some spouses here, who are quite capable of being intimate with BOTH their spouse and another. I think...as long as she refuses any sort of intimacy....does it really matter if it is because of another, or just her emotional capability? I've already heard from my lawyer, there would be no alimony. The disparity in our salaries is not big enough. And cheating would have no bearing on the divorce (child support, or custody) itself. So, I figure I know enough. 
A) Not capable of intimacy now (for whatever reason),
B) Not capbale of communication,

Unless these two things change....I have no choice.

The only thing that finding out about an office affair might bring me, is the understanding that there was an ulterior motive to her going cold. It wasn't ALL me. But really....how much is that information worth. Not sure I want to spend $500 to find that out for sure.


----------



## Chaparral

Beowulf said:


> If she is going to such great lengths to continue the affair with the OM while simultaneously detaching from you then I say you need to file for divorce before she will see the light. If you have communicated to her that neither one of you can afford a divorce right now then she is probably going to continue along the current path for as long as she can. What incentive does she have to change anything? I think the longer you wait to file the less chance you have to make things right.
> 
> Daily, I'm sorry you're having to go through this but right now you are enabling her behavior by waiting on the divorce. If you want any hope of saving your marriage file for divorce now. If you want to save your sanity file for divorce now. If you want to stop your children from being exposed to such a toxic environment file for divorce now.
> 
> Just my $.02


He does not KNOW she has had/having an affair. He doesn't KNOW she has another phone.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> He does not KNOW she has had/having an affair. He doesn't KNOW she has another phone.


This is true. I've searched high and low for that thing. I never could find it. All I KNOW is that she WAS (in my opinion) talking to someone on her drive home (at least on two occasions)...and NOT on her regular phone. Both conversations were work related...but NOT on her phone. My conclusion is that:
A) I can only think of one reason why one would have such a secret phone; 
B) Why would one give this phone number out to someone at work, UNLESS the one at work is the reason for the phone.

Now...it IS possible she WAS talking to herself ....in which case....I think she just might be a basket case.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> ""It sounds like you've has it pretty rough too. I hope you can get through it. Kids do change things. Its even harder when parents can't be on the same page about how to raise kids. And then there are competitions about who does more."
> 
> Did you ever show these things to OMW?


No. She claimed she saw them on her OM's phone. Don't know if he doctored them or not. Didn't matter, she was pretty adament in support of him. And, in reality....no smoking gun comments were made. So...if he got to her...she isn't going to believe what she reads. It wasn't so much what she said to him. It was that they were sharing their "misery", discussing the marriage...and then started comparing schedules (and vacation times) to have "coffee." Nothing said, though, was as damning as the look on her face...and her comment "we would never have gone through with it".....when I confronted her. Maybe HE was innocent......she was not.


----------



## Chaparral

Well, look at the bright side, in your next relationship you can have love AND sex.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Well, look at the bright side, in your next relationship you can have love AND sex.


yeah...I'm 49 years old now. I figure, by the time I'm 60....I just might be over this enough to venture out.


----------



## warlock07

There may/may not be an OM here. Posters take note. It is only making Dailygrind more paranoid.

@DG Is there a chance that she knows that you are posting here?

And GPS on phone are are battery hoggers. People notice them easily.

Also hire a PI. You need it for your mental peace even if he finds nothing.


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> There may/may not be an OM here. Posters take note. It is only making Dailygrind more paranoid.
> 
> @DG Is there a chance that she knows that you are posting here?


She knows I am posting somewhere. I guess it is possible she found this forum. I wouldn't know if she found MY posts. If so...she would be even more mad about the snooping. But then she would ALSO know my pain.....and the snooping was really at the advice from here. I never snooped before. Regardless...i'm stopping the snooping. It really isn't helping. Whatevershe is going through, really doesn't matter anymore why. If she doesn't change ...we are done anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Beowulf

chapparal said:


> He does not KNOW she has had/having an affair. He doesn't KNOW she has another phone.


Maybe I'm missing something here. If she is confiding in another man about her marriage and her relationship with her husband that is an affair IMO. It may not have turned into a PA or it may have. Point is that the OP has many questions and his W is not supplying any answers. And she is the only one that can.

Either she had or is having an A or she checked out of the marriage or both. In any case she is not going to take things seriously until the BIG D is laid out on the table for her to see.


----------



## Chaparral

Whatever her reasons are, she's trying to make him file for the divorce. DG just has no clue why because she will not talk about it. 

Ice Queen?


----------



## Chaparral

I'm wondering if he should invite her here since nothing else has worked. At this point I don't see what he has to lose.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I'm wondering if he should invite her here since nothing else has worked. At this point I don't see what he has to lose.


I don't think I'd invite her on. By all indications, 2012 is going to be a VERY trying year. I do have a couple friends who have ready shoulders fo me to cry on. But, when I really need impartial advice...you guys really rock! Thanks for all the advice/support! I think this forum really needs to be for me. We'll see what comes in the future, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

DailyGrind said:


> She knows I am posting somewhere. I guess it is possible she found this forum. I wouldn't know if she found MY posts. If so...she would be even more mad about the snooping. But then she would ALSO know my pain.....and the snooping was really at the advice from here. I never snooped before. Regardless...i'm stopping the snooping. It really isn't helping. Whatevershe is going through, really doesn't matter anymore why. If she doesn't change ...we are done anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She might well have been aware of the snooping methods all along. If the person is cheating on you, would she care about the pain she is putting you through? Why are you surprised when she hasn't reacted to the divorce? Is the home computer key logged?


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## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> She might well have been aware of the snooping methods all along. If the person is cheating on you, would she care about the pain she is putting you through? Why are you surprised when she hasn't reacted to the divorce? Is the home computer key logged?


Nah. If there is communication, other than another phone....it would be through her work email. I'd get arrested accessing that. Like I said....done snooping. At this point, I don't see how it could help. I can't prove something going on in the office. In the end....does it matter? Better to just let whatever is happening free rain. Affairs rarely are as much fun when they become real. If D is what she wants......I probably can't stop that train, at this point. Maybe the cold reality of it will shock her. Or not. Either way, I guess I can't force her to love me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## katc

File for divorce - she'll show her hand quick enough.

There's a "tool" (free download) you can install on your computer - it's a key logger, will tell you passwords, every site visited, etc. If she's clever, she can figure it out and find out where you're posting. 

It works great!


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## DailyGrind

I don't want to file until we have the custody issue resolved. Purpose of my letter from Tuesday. Plus .....we are stuck in our house together til end of March, when I get my bonus. That's the first time I can possibly afford for one of us to move.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

So no contact with OM whatsoever? Did you call her out on her having another phone???


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## DailyGrind

Jellybeans said:


> So no contact with OM whatsoever? Did you call her out on her having another phone???


Yup....deny, deny, deny.....said she was talking to herself. {sigh}


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## Jellybeans

What was she talking about for an HOUR?


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## DailyGrind

Jellybeans said:


> What was she talking about for an HOUR?


HR related stuff. Seemed like she was talking to some manager about employee related issues. But clearly seemed like it was someone she was friendly with. Did you see the links I posed on her conversations?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Yeah but I did not read them.

So what is your plan of action, DG?


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## tennisstar

DG, I'm new to the forums, and you ignored my first posting to you. I'll forgive you, if you read this one, though. LOL

Anyways, I want to give you the other perspective. I was somewhat like your wife, other than I didn't cheat and try to hide it. I did leave my ex-husband, though, about 11 years ago. He was a good man...very caring. He had his faults, like everyone, as did I. Regardless, once we lost our connection, I just could never get back into the relationship. I felt terrible about it and let it go on for years, just existing as friends and roommates mostly. I didn't want to hurt him. 

Now unlike your wife, I told him I wanted a divorce one night. He was stunned. But I wondered if he had been really paying attention. I hadn't been in the marriage for years. I just felt like my life was going by, and I was missing out on a life.

Now, my family, his family, everyone thought I was in a fog. They said I would be back. I never came back. I moved out and moved to the big city (hated living in that small town-nothing to do). Was it hard? Definitely! We had lots of money together. I had little apart (was a teacher). I went bankrupt because I couldn't pay all my bills. I dated for years and found out how hard it can be to date as an adult and how cruel people can be (was cheated on, lied to, stood up, and just plain had my heart broken several times over the years). 

But I also learned to live on my own and be independent. I left teaching and got a much better job, and today, I make 3 times as much as I did teaching. I traveled all over the country and parts of the world and met tons of great people. I became strong when I once was weak.

My point is she may be done. She sounds so done with this marriage. And while I don't agree with her cheating and ways (think if she wants out, then she needs to get out), I think you can try and try and it won't do any good. Why spend your life trying to use VARs and keyloggers, etc? Why not move on and one day, find someone who wants to really be with you? I just can't see anyone having to trail behind his/her spouse and do all this to see if the spouse is cheating, has another phone, etc. If she's done, no amount of you doing anything is going to change it. Believe me, my ex-husband said he'd do anything to keep me, and I know he would have. But I was already gone.

Now, my story and his ended well, at least so far. He remarried about 6 or so years ago, and I was very happy for him. I remarried this year, after 11 years of dating around, I finally met my husband (I learned men don't always like NICE WOMEN either, but that's another topic). 

Please don't spend the next few years of your life trying to beg someone to be in a marriage when she isn't. It isn't worth it.


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## DailyGrind

Jellybeans said:


> Yeah but I did not read them.
> 
> So what is your plan of action, DG?


My plan is to continue with the divorce plans, unless she shows me SOMETHING to change my mind. What else can I do?


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## DailyGrind

tennisstar said:


> DG, I'm new to the forums, and you ignored my first posting to you. I'll forgive you, if you read this one, though. LOL
> 
> Anyways, I want to give you the other perspective. I was somewhat like your wife, other than I didn't cheat and try to hide it. I did leave my ex-husband, though, about 11 years ago. He was a good man...very caring. He had his faults, like everyone, as did I. Regardless, once we lost our connection, I just could never get back into the relationship. I felt terrible about it and let it go on for years, just existing as friends and roommates mostly. I didn't want to hurt him.
> 
> Now unlike your wife, I told him I wanted a divorce one night. He was stunned. But I wondered if he had been really paying attention. I hadn't been in the marriage for years. I just felt like my life was going by, and I was missing out on a life.
> 
> Now, my family, his family, everyone thought I was in a fog. They said I would be back. I never came back. I moved out and moved to the big city (hated living in that small town-nothing to do). Was it hard? Definitely! We had lots of money together. I had little apart (was a teacher). I went bankrupt because I couldn't pay all my bills. I dated for years and found out how hard it can be to date as an adult and how cruel people can be (was cheated on, lied to, stood up, and just plain had my heart broken several times over the years).
> 
> But I also learned to live on my own and be independent. I left teaching and got a much better job, and today, I make 3 times as much as I did teaching. I traveled all over the country and parts of the world and met tons of great people. I became strong when I once was weak.
> 
> My point is she may be done. She sounds so done with this marriage. And while I don't agree with her cheating and ways (think if she wants out, then she needs to get out), I think you can try and try and it won't do any good. Why spend your life trying to use VARs and keyloggers, etc? Why not move on and one day, find someone who wants to really be with you? I just can't see anyone having to trail behind his/her spouse and do all this to see if the spouse is cheating, has another phone, etc. If she's done, no amount of you doing anything is going to change it. Believe me, my ex-husband said he'd do anything to keep me, and I know he would have. But I was already gone.
> 
> Now, my story and his ended well, at least so far. He remarried about 6 or so years ago, and I was very happy for him. I remarried this year, after 11 years of dating around, I finally met my husband (I learned men don't always like NICE WOMEN either, but that's another topic).
> 
> Please don't spend the next few years of your life trying to beg someone to be in a marriage when she isn't. It isn't worth it.


Tennisstar - Sorry...I didn't ignore....and I've read both posts. I fear you are correct. She seems to be gone.  Difference is, you actually TOLD your H what was going on with you. My W is just leaving me guessing. Yes....i'm done with the snooping. As I've said in more recent posts...I'm done with that. She is what she is. I mourn what will happen with the kids. That is one difference between my situation and yours. I am willing to do a LOT to make the atmosphere with the kids the most nurturing, and loving as possible. I believe that is BEST through two loving parents. But...if that isn't to be....I fear I have no choice but to move on. It will be difficult financially....but I will ultimately recover. We had promised the kids a trip to Disney next Spring. But those funds were to come from my bonus. Now...if we have to separate....unfortunately, that promise will have to be broken. Maybe in 2013. We'll just have to see. I HATE that the kids will have to suffer, because my W has decided to vacate the marriage. But...that is her choice. I will continue to do whatever I can to make my children's life much more enjoyable than my own. Whatever that may entail. 

Thanks for the input. I truly appreciate it.


----------



## Chaparral

Did you ever ask her if she thinks you think your financial problems were her fault because of the money you two put into her business? Or maybe she thinks her business failed because of you?


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## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Did you ever ask her if she thinks you think your financial problems were her fault because of the money you two put into her business? Or maybe she thinks her business failed because of you?


I think, if anything, she might think I blame HER. I did, to some extent...but not enough to leave the marriage. I worked my A$$ off to try and make that thing successful for us. I look back now, and realize...all I was doing was taking even MORE time away from us. I was gone most weekends, taking her candles to craft shows for her. It just took too much time away from us. The couple times we've discussed it since....since has only said I should have pulled the plug on her sooner. Thus ...putting the blame on me. She's even said she thought I wanted the business as much as she did. REALLY? I WANTED to work 50 hr weeks at my job, then lose my weekends working for her? REALLY...I WANTED to sell my prized boat, to pay for her business. Just another thing she has turned around to blame ME for. The only thing I WANTED...was for it to be successful, so we could get our money back. Sure...I hoped it would be UBER-successful, so that one day it would make us money. But...I didn't want it to begin with. And I certainly didn't WANT to work as much as I did.

Oh...and the OTHER thing I wanted was for her to APPRECIATE all I was doing for her. I don't think I ever felt that from her.


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## warlock07

yep, can't argue with that


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## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> I think, if anything, she might think I blame HER. I did, to some extent...but not enough to leave the marriage. I worked my A$$ off to try and make that thing successful for us. I look back now, and realize...all I was doing was taking even MORE time away from us. I was gone most weekends, taking her candles to craft shows for her. It just took too much time away from us. The couple times we've discussed it since....since has only said I should have pulled the plug on her sooner. Thus ...putting the blame on me. She's even said she thought I wanted the business as much as she did. REALLY? I WANTED to work 50 hr weeks at my job, then lose my weekends working for her? REALLY...I WANTED to sell my prized boat, to pay for her business. Just another thing she has turned around to blame ME for. The only thing I WANTED...was for it to be successful, so we could get our money back. Sure...I hoped it would be UBER-successful, so that one day it would make us money. But...I didn't want it to begin with. And I certainly didn't WANT to work as much as I did.
> 
> Oh...and the OTHER thing I wanted was for her to APPRECIATE all I was doing for her. I don't think I ever felt that from her.


I think this explains a lot. "I think, if anything, she might think I blame HER. I did, to some extent "


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## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I think this explains a lot. "I think, if anything, she might think I blame HER. I did, to some extent "


How so? Yes...we had arguments about the business, cause I felt she never treated it like a BUSINESS...rather a hobby. We had too much money invested for that. We had a nice store, where she made the candles. We have a website for internet sales. We did fundraisers with local schools...and we did craft shows all over the Mid-East area. It was just too much invested to be treated like a hobby. That being said....I NEVER blamed her for the lost money. Granted....it wasn't your normal issue in a marriage...but it wasn't any worse than some posters, where their spouse loses money gambling, or spending. I simply closed the business down, and found a new job that paid better, to try and pay the bills. Of course...it was precisely THAT job, that wound up requiring me to work so much, due to us being acquired by an international company, months after I started working there. SHE, on the other hand...got to be a SAHM for the next three years. I KNOW I never begrudged her for two of those years. The last one, though...I had to BEG her to go back to work, as we had bought a new house...and only planned on her not working for two years...not three. But..I'm sure I never made a huge deal of that, with her.


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## golfergirl

DailyGrind said:


> How so? Yes...we had arguments about the business, cause I felt she never treated it like a BUSINESS...rather a hobby. We had too much money invested for that. We had a nice store, where she made the candles. We have a website for internet sales. We did fundraisers with local schools...and we did craft shows all over the Mid-East area. It was just too much invested to be treated like a hobby. That being said....I NEVER blamed her for the lost money. Granted....it wasn't your normal issue in a marriage...but it wasn't any worse than some posters, where their spouse loses money gambling, or spending. I simply closed the business down, and found a new job that paid better, to try and pay the bills. Of course...it was precisely THAT job, that wound up requiring me to work so much, due to us being acquired by an international company, months after I started working there. SHE, on the other hand...got to be a SAHM for the next three years. I KNOW I never begrudged her for two of those years. The last one, though...I had to BEG her to go back to work, as we had bought a new house...and only planned on her not working for two years...not three. But..I'm sure I never made a huge deal of that, with her.


Can YOU survive on you own financially with a divorce now? If so do it. Her figuring it out how to make ends meet is a good start for wake up call. The longer you wait - the higher salary and bonuses kick in making alimony more likely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Yea - maybe you should get the loan until bonus time comes - kick start the D process.


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## DailyGrind

Lawyer told me the bonus wouldn't count toward the child support...and still wouldn't make a difference toward alimony. She makes enough, technically, to support herself. Off course....the debt we are still carrying (and slowly paying down now) is the difference between us just getting by, right now...and actually living a VERY comfortable lifestyle. We have about two more years to pay off this debt (was almost $100k a year and a half ago....down to about $67k now.) Unfortunately, because of this.....my credit is shot...for another couple years. We live on a cash only basis. So...no...without that bonus, I can't afford to pay for the house alone.

Frankly...I fear that trying to keep the house myself, may shoot the uncontested divorce in the head. Whoever maintains the house...probably should be (and would be awarded by courts) primary custody of the kids. Although I would LOVE that....she would never agree to it (as far as I know.) I can't imagine the courts awarding the kids to my wife, after she has moved to an apartment...while I'm residing in our family home. And since the mortgage is in my name alone...lawyer DEFINITELY recommends I NOT left her have the house (she is on the deed, which is easy to transfer...mortgage is not.) The ONLY way I can conceive the D being uncontested is if she lives in the house.....meaning she would have primary custody. The only way I can imagine THAT to happen is if I get deed transfer to me...and rent the house back to her...for the value of my apartment rent. Any of this make sense?

And...I can't see us affording the above, until I get my bonus. Half of that bonus (at least.....I don't have any idea how much it will be) is going to go toward auto repairs, and back taxes..anyway. Unfortunately.....a good portion of that bonus was to go toward a Disney trip we were promising to the kids. Getting an apartment, and trying to maintain two households.....will sink that plan. 

Another idea I was thinking...if I can get her to agree....is to just get an efficiency apartment for the next year...and we agree to a nesting arrangement with the kids. We need to be separated for a year, before we can D, anyway. So...that year could be in an efficiency, where we rotate in/out....letting the kids stay there. The following year we should be better able to afford a nicer second location (following the D.) 

The only couple issues I have with renting her the house is I'd be stuck with maintainence...even though I wouldn't live there. I guess it would be the same, if I was renting to an outside family. Second issue...what if she up and moves out, mid-lease...sticking me with both household payments.

OR....she could just get rid of whatever bug crawled up her A$$....and recommit to the marriage. Sure make life easier!


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## Jellybeans

Has she said anything about the letter you wrote yet?

I advocate FULLY against NOT getting an efficiency with her if you choose to divorce. Because living with someone like her who doesn't talk and is acting like a straight up a$$hole... is not going to be good for anyone involved.

I am sorry you are going through this  And I hope she either comes out of it or you move on to find a relationship with someone who gives a damn about your feelings/will talk to you.


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## DailyGrind

Oh...and hmmmm....just noticed the shoes she bought, with my returned Christmas present. Nice brown dress shoes with 2" heels. Very nice. Only issue.....our ENTIRE marriage, I tried getting her to wear heals, when we would go out. She NEVER would get any (didn't like them.) Most she would do would be 1/2" platforms. 

Kinda goes along with her moving from always turtlenecks (never would wear anything that showed off any part of her chest area) to lower crew neck. Not exactly showing cleavage.....but definitely more revealing. This has been a change, over the last 6 months.

It all could be just that, now that she is working (over the past 3 years)...she is being influenced by the dress styles around her at work. OR..............well....you know.


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## Jellybeans

Well if it is "OR............well.........ou know" then that explains everything really.


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## DailyGrind

Jellybeans said:


> Has she said anything about the letter you wrote yet?
> 
> I advocate FULLY against NOT getting an efficiency with her if you choose to divorce. Because living with someone like her who doesn't talk and is acting like a straight up a$$hole... is not going to be good for anyone involved.
> 
> I am sorry you are going through this  And I hope she either comes out of it or you move on to find a relationship with someone who gives a damn about your feelings/will talk to you.


Nope....not a word. She's not exactly NOT talking to me, right now. She'll say stuff about the kids...and their schedules. But she is saying NOTHING else. This is why I was saying before that I don't know a 180 would do any good. She's been doing it to me for two years. Like last night.....kids like to "camp out" on weekends. It isn't uncommon for them to setup a bed (for both of them) in some different part of the house. They love it. Last couple weeks, I've been camping out with them (guess I'm trying to get as much quality time as I can with them...who knows what the future entails.) So, we decide to setup in the livingroom, in front of the tv and fireplace. W came home and dithered around. Then...before she went to bed, she came over to hug/kiss the girls goodnight....and left (never said a word to me.)

This morning...(she had to work...I have off with the girls)...she comes down to get ready for work. The selfish [email protected] comes into the kitchen, and goes about her normal morning routine (lights on, making lunch/coffee) without ANY attempt to try and be quiet...you know....for the three people sleeping just feet away. When she left....she actually left that bright light on. I had to get up to turn it off for us. Grrr.


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## DailyGrind

Jellybeans said:


> Well if it is "OR............well.........ou know" then that explains everything really.


yeah...but I just can't figure out HOW she would be so stupid as to start something up, at work. She's the HR person, for crying out loud!! She's not stupid. And, normally...she leaves every day right at 4:30 pm...cause she has to pick the kids up. When would there be time? Her boss is not a bad looking Jewish guy (we are Christian.) BUT...his FIL owns the company. He'd have to be a complete IDIOT to start something with my W. He's the only one I've seen that I'd have really any concern over. Most of the employees are female. Of course...it is possible she could have gone THAT route. 

I just don't know. An affair at work just doesn't add up. But then.....I can't get ANY of this to add up. {sigh}


----------



## DailyGrind

@ tennisstar - 



tennisstar said:


> He was a good man...very caring. He had his faults, like everyone, as did I. Regardless, once we lost our connection, I just could never get back into the relationship. I felt terrible about it and let it go on for years, just existing as friends and roommates mostly. I didn't want to hurt him.
> 
> Believe me, my ex-husband said he'd do anything to keep me, and I know he would have. But I was already gone.


How did you lose your connection? Did you not even really try? If he was a good man...very caring.....what happened?


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## FourtyPlus

The thing about the clothes: I've done that too when I started working. Couldn't pull off being professional in worn out sweat pants and messy ponytail. For the OM, I didn't have to dress up or anything because we never met.
Given the fact that there is possibility that something's going on at work, that could very well be the reason for heels and crew necks (actually, I think what you mean is a scoop neck), not just trying to fit in with office dress code.
Also, not sure about other women but since I do work from my home computer a lot, it is sometimes neccessary for me to get dressed up in order to get myself to "go to work". Not meeting any clients today but I'm all dressed up, hair done, make up etc. Today I needed that to get myself to tackle the workload.
However, I know it's different in your case.


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## Chaparral

Actually, people have affairs before work(go in early, during work(take time off), at work, after work (take off early or come home late).

Don't see the point of the 180 since it seems like she likes it. I would talk to her like everything is OK. Iwould talk her up all the time even if she didn't respond. Just act like everything is hunky dory.

I would still get a PI or at least put a Gps on her car.


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## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> The thing about the clothes: I've done that too when I started working. Couldn't pull off being professional in worn out sweat pants and messy ponytail. For the OM, I didn't have to dress up or anything because we never met.
> Given the fact that there is possibility that something's going on at work, that could very well be the reason for heels and crew necks (actually, I think what you mean is a scoop neck), not just trying to fit in with office dress code.
> Also, not sure about other women but since I do work from my home computer a lot, it is sometimes neccessary for me to get dressed up in order to get myself to "go to work". Not meeting any clients today but I'm all dressed up, hair done, make up etc. Today I needed that to get myself to tackle the workload.
> However, I know it's different in your case.


yeah...probably meant scoop neck. She's not showing cleavage, until she bends over to kiss the kids (damn....why do I have to see that??!!) 

I didn't think much about the scoop necks...until I saw the heels. THAT was not necessary to fit in at the office. I could NEVER get her to buy those before.

I'm starting to wonder if, instead of an A...maybe she's developed a caustic friend? Just a thought. I really need to stop doing that.....thoughts, that is.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Actually, people have affairs before work(go in early, during work(take time off), at work, after work (take off early or come home late).
> 
> Don't see the point of the 180 since it seems like she likes it. I would talk to her like everything is OK. Iwould talk her up all the time even if she didn't respond. Just act like everything is hunky dory.
> 
> I would still get a PI or at least put a Gps on her car.


I guess this is the baffling part. When she went cold on me, two years ago. I did:

A) Sort of 180;
B) Cleaned up my act even more (rarely coming home late, more time with kids, did more around the house);
C) I stopped saying "I Love You", and the hugs on coming home...but still talked cheerfully to her;
D) Tried to maintain a normal family life.

Apparently, it did no good...as nearly two years later she was emailing this guy "things have been going downhill for years"...and my favorite "he most certainly never liked me"....stuff like that. I just wish she'd put her big-girls panties on, and just tell me what is going on with her/what she wants. {sigh}


----------



## Jellybeans

DailyGrind said:


> yeah...but I just can't figure out HOW she would be so stupid as to start something up, at work.


Plenty of people start up affairs at their workplace.

Why do you get a funny vibe about that guy in particular? Elaborate.


----------



## DailyGrind

Her boss?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

DailyGrind said:


> I guess this is the baffling part. When she went cold on me, two years ago. I did:
> 
> A) Sort of 180;
> B) Cleaned up my act even more (rarely coming home late, more time with kids, did more around the house);
> C) I stopped saying "I Love You", and the hugs on coming home...but still talked cheerfully to her;
> D) Tried to maintain a normal family life.
> 
> Apparently, it did no good...as nearly two years later she was emailing this guy "things have been going downhill for years"...and my favorite "he most certainly never liked me"....stuff like that. I just wish she'd put her big-girls panties on, and just tell me what is going on with her/what she wants. {sigh}


The 180 isn't about stopping their affair if they are having one - it's about building you up to be a stronger you. It can have the side effect of making you look more attractive, but it's not a direct "end-the-affair" action.


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## FourtyPlus

Are you meant to see "that" when she bends over? Were you meant to notice the heels, which you wanted her to wear for years? Were you meant to walk into the bathroom and see her all nekkid?

I've soooo done this to my husband after the A when we decided we were going to try to work this out and work on the marriage. He likes plain white t-shirt and jeans if possible with white tennis shoes. It's not my style but I remembered that he likes it so I went and bought a bunch of white t-shirts and cute tennis shoes. And I made sure he saw me getting dressed in the morning. I changed my make up routine from full war paint to the "nude look" (still warpaint but made to look natural, no colors) because he likes a plain look. I've made these changes after the A because I wanted him to know that I want to please him. Started wearing the perfume he loves so much too.

I know this is probably against everything every poster has said or will say but have you tried reacting to the heels, the scoop neck and the open bathroom door? My situation and motivations are totally different than with you and your wife but I'm wondering if she's maybe saying something that you don't hear because she's not saying it with words.

I'm sorry, I tend to over-analyze everything (except my own mess).


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## DailyGrind

Shaggy said:


> The 180 isn't about stopping their affair if they are having one - it's about building you up to be a stronger you. It can have the side effect of making you look more attractive, but it's not a direct "end-the-affair" action.


Oh I know. I wasn't doing it to try and end an affair. I actually suspected...but didn't see any sign of one. So, I assumed it was something SHE was going through. Honestly, I was feeling guilty that we were in the financial situation we were in. I promise her parents, when I aske for her hand.....that I would take care of her financially. I felt I was letting that down. So...I worked harder. I was focused on getting to next year, when I was sure we would be better financially. I envisioned affording proper MC, trips for jus the of us. 

Last year, I won free airline tickets to anywhere in the Continental US. We couldn't afford much, once we GOT there....so we kept delaying it. Last August I mentioned to her....since the kids have off for Thanksgiving....how about we drive down to my parents house in North Carolina....drop the kids off...and we use the airline tickets from there to Florida. We could take four days...then fly back just before Thanksgiving....spending it with my parents. She agreed...but then a month before...she suddenly (I can't go away that week....it is payroll week, and I have to be at work.) She only needed to work on Monday..but that was enough to make the trip to Florida unworkable. We DID wind up going to my parents, leaving on Monday. But it irritated me that for months she was a go.....and then, all of a sudden..."I never said I could do that...it is payroll week." I must have asked a half dozen times (between August and October) if she had asked for the days off. "no...not yet...but I shouldn't have any problem." Then, in October...it was all...."I never agreed to that!" #$^&$%$%$!!


----------



## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> Are you meant to see "that" when she bends over? Were you meant to notice the heels, which you wanted her to wear for years? Were you meant to walk into the bathroom and see her all nekkid?
> 
> I've soooo done this to my husband after the A when we decided we were going to try to work this out and work on the marriage. He likes plain white t-shirt and jeans if possible with white tennis shoes. It's not my style but I remembered that he likes it so I went and bought a bunch of white t-shirts and cute tennis shoes. And I made sure he saw me getting dressed in the morning. I changed my make up routine from full war paint to the "nude look" (still warpaint but made to look natural, no colors) because he likes a plain look. I've made these changes after the A because I wanted him to know that I want to please him. Started wearing the perfume he loves so much too.
> 
> I know this is probably against everything every poster has said or will say but have you tried reacting to the heels, the scoop neck and the open bathroom door? My situation and motivations are totally different than with you and your wife but I'm wondering if she's maybe saying something that you don't hear because she's not saying it with words. As for perfume...she ONLY wears perfume for work. Can't tell you how many times we would go out...and I'd ask..'no perfume?' Her reply was always "oh...forgot....we were in a hurry to leave." {sigh}
> 
> I'm sorry, I tend to over-analyze everything (except my own mess).


I doubt it. She had no way of knowing I'd be coming up into the bathroom. And...the only reason I saw anything was because I heard the shower...and didn't realize she was not in yet. I thought I'd be talking to her through the curtain. Scoop necks....that's a maybe....but usually, when she comes home from work...she immidiately goes and changes into her flannel pj's. As to the heels.....I only noticed today, cause they are sitting in the shoe area, near the front door (along with everyone elses shoes.) Not like she wore them FOR me.


----------



## FourtyPlus

DailyGrind said:


> I doubt it. She had no way of knowing I'd be coming up into the bathroom. And...the only reason I saw anything was because I heard the shower...and didn't realize she was not in yet. I thought I'd be talking to her through the curtain. Scoop necks....that's a maybe....but usually, when she comes home from work...she immidiately goes and changes into her flannel pj's. As to the heels.....I only noticed today, cause they are sitting in the shoe area, near the front door (along with everyone elses shoes.) Not like she wore them FOR me.


I'm sorry but I had to try because I know from myself that I'm trying to say things without saying anything and I expect hubby to read my mind and respond to what I didn't say. Totally stupid!


----------



## working_together

Daily, keep following your thread because you seem like a nice decent guy with a crappy wife who just doesn't seem to give a crap about you, or so it seems. You really have tried in a lot of ways to do so many things to get her love back, and she just ignores it and hurts you more. She just sh*ts on you all the time. Obviously, you are very patient, but you need to let go of your "mr. nice guy", and "let her go". I know you've done a bit of the 180, but it's too soft I think.


The real question is how long are you willing to stay in this marriage?


----------



## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> I'm sorry but I had to try because I know from myself that I'm trying to say things without saying anything and I expect hubby to read my mind and respond to what I didn't say. Totally stupid!


Oh...I KNOW she does that. She even told the counselor that "if he loves me, he'd just know." Counselor asked her if she knew what she (counselor) was thinking now. "no".....counselor: "see....nobody is a mind reader."

No need to be sorry, though. I'm desperate for any POSITIVE light on the situation.


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> Daily, keep following your thread because you seem like a nice decent guy with a crappy wife who just doesn't seem to give a crap about you, or so it seems. You really have tried in a lot of ways to do so many things to get her love back, and she just ignores it and hurts you more. She just sh*ts on you all the time. Obviously, you are very patient, but you need to let go of your "mr. nice guy", and "let her go". I know you've done a bit of the 180, but it's too soft I think.
> 
> 
> The real question is how long are you willing to stay in this marriage?


Not much longer. I've already had an initial consult with a lawyer. If there weren't kids, and the house.....I'd already be gone. Finances, kids...and the slightest glimmer of hope are all that has me here right now. The glimmer is fading fast.


----------



## Beowulf

Pardon me if you've already answered these questions. Does she know you have determined that a divorce is not doable right now? Does she know you are thinking seriously about one or does she think you are using the threat of divorce to manipulate her? Has she said she wants a divorce or mentioned divorce in any way?

The reason I ask is because if she knows you are thinking of divorce and/or she is thinking of divorce and it can't be done right now then maybe she is just waiting until a divorce is doable. If she thinks you are trying to use the threat of divorce but aren't really intending to go through with it then she isn't really thinking of what life will be like after a divorce and therefore has no reason to work on the marriage. It seems that until you are ready to actually go through with a divorce you really won't know what her mindset is.


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> Pardon me if you've already answered these questions. Does she know you have determined that a divorce is not doable right now? Does she know you are thinking seriously about one or does she think you are using the threat of divorce to manipulate her? Has she said she wants a divorce or mentioned divorce in any way?
> 
> The reason I ask is because if she knows you are thinking of divorce and/or she is thinking of divorce and it can't be done right now then maybe she is just waiting until a divorce is doable. If she thinks you are trying to use the threat of divorce but aren't really intending to go through with it then she isn't really thinking of what life will be like after a divorce and therefore has no reason to work on the marriage. It seems that until you are ready to actually go through with a divorce you really won't know what her mindset is.


yes...we had discussed previously that separation would be financially impossible before March. She knows NOW that I am seriously considering....as I told her about my lawyer consult. Her response was "should I see my own lawyer?" She has acknowledged that she doesn't know if she even wants to work on the marriage (if there is any point.) When I asked her explained to her that my benefits include legal resources..meaning I can utilize a lawyer for free....if the divorce is uncontested. I asked her if she wanted uncontested (as our overall legal fees would be the least)....she said yes. Now....whether she is just stubbornly responding to my lead...I don't know.

I left her a letter Wednesday morning, after that talk: Letter

This pretty much spells it out. I can't say if she takes me seriously...as she has refused to speak to me about it. Never left me ANY response to the letter, at all. And, I haven't asked her about it yet. I'm thinking I just wait to see what she wants to do about the next scheduled counseling session, next Saturday. If she's willing to go...we might start getting some answers. If she doesn't...I guess I STILL get my answer...and just move forward.


----------



## ArmyofJuan

DailyGrind said:


> yeah...but I just can't figure out HOW she would be so stupid as to start something up, at work. She's the HR person, for crying out loud!! She's not stupid. And, normally...she leaves every day right at 4:30 pm...cause she has to pick the kids up. When would there be time? Her boss is not a bad looking Jewish guy (we are Christian.) BUT...his FIL owns the company. He'd have to be a complete IDIOT to start something with my W. He's the only one I've seen that I'd have really any concern over. Most of the employees are female. Of course...it is possible she could have gone THAT route.
> 
> I just don't know. An affair at work just doesn't add up. But then.....I can't get ANY of this to add up. {sigh}


Affairs are irrational and make people do irrational things. You are not going to ever understand it so don't try. Just know you can't put anything past anyone having an A and you can never expect them to do the right thing or logical thing. 

TL;DR:
Don't underestimate the stupidity of people in affairs.


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## FourtyPlus

I'm thinking for someone willing to work on their marriage, the mere thought of divorce (ending the marriage) is painful and would evoke a response other than no response at all.


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## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> I'm thinking for someone willing to work on their marriage, the mere thought of divorce (ending the marriage) is painful and would evoke a response other than no response at all.


Yeah...sadly, I agree.


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## Jellybeans

When did you give her that letter?

Your wife is acting like an a$$hole. I would bring up the letter and ask what she thinks and tell her "I spent a lot of time writing that leter andt hinking about things and your non-response has not made me feel better about our situation."


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## DailyGrind

Jellybeans said:


> When did you give her that letter?
> 
> Your wife is acting like an a$$hole. I would bring up the letter and ask what she thinks and tell her "I spent a lot of time writing that leter andt hinking about things and your non-response has not made me feel better about our situation."


Wednesday morning.


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## Jellybeans

Talk to her.


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## gonefishin

Dailygrind

I am new to your post. Your story is very sad, but probably more common in the world we live in.

I admire you for trying to do all the things you have done to make your wife happy. It sounds like your wife is one unhappy human being. Based on what I have read, I do not think you or anyone else will make her happy.

I think she is a coward and a snake for not giving you the respect you should get in a marriage. Some people try to jump into a new relationship before they end thier marriages. These people are very insecure. She has very little self esteem telling this man how you (her husband) treat her. If he only knew. She is fishing for a new man. Once she finds this man she will be ready to dump you and then make his life misreable.

I did read your letter. I want to put my business hat on for one minute. Terrible letter! I would not have taken this approach. I would have served her divorce papers. At this point she has to make a decision. She needs to be pushed to the edge of complete failure. If she wants to reconcile, it will now be done on your terms not hers. She may have some form of mental illness based on your posts. Just my opinion. One more thing if she is having an affair ask her to leave the home, she is a terrible influence on the children.


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## DailyGrind

Well...this is the email I'm getting ready to send her:

_Are you going to respond to my letter? I spent a lot of time thinking about things, and writing that letter. Your non-response has not made me feel any better about our situation. What are you thinking about? Why are you holding back? I chose the letter to communicate, because you don’t seem to want to talk. I don’t know what else to do. Why can’t you at least give me your viewpoints?_

Good/Bad idea?


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## Shaggy

DailyGrind said:


> Well...this is the email I'm getting ready to send her:
> 
> _Are you going to respond to my letter? I spent a lot of time thinking about things, and writing that letter. Your non-response has not made me feel any better about our situation. What are you thinking about? Why are you holding back? I chose the letter to communicate, because you don’t seem to want to talk. I don’t know what else to do. Why can’t you at least give me your viewpoints?_
> 
> Good/Bad idea?


Bad idea. 

Too complicated and confrontational.


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## uwa

Bad idea. This is a big decision for her that shouldn't be rushed.


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## DailyGrind

Shaggy said:


> Bad idea.
> 
> Too complicated and confrontational.


Well...talking directly to her is ineffective. Should I stick with my original thought...wait and see if we go to the rescheduled counseling session, next Saturday (and see if anything comes out of that?)


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## uwa

There is a lack of effort at communication on her part, but I wonder if this could be partly your fault as well.

I'm looking back a few pages, and there was a time, after you sent the first letter, that she became friendly. You came on this forum and fished for feedback on what was going on.

What you should have done was ask her. "Why are you in such a good mood? Was it something I did? Can I do more of it?" Instead, you didn't ask, she didn't offer, and after a while, it stopped.

Edit: I also think that perhaps the fact that your thread is on the infidelity section may be skewing the advice a little. Keep that in mind.


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## Shaggy

DailyGrind said:


> Well...talking directly to her is ineffective. Should I stick with my original thought...wait and see if we go to the rescheduled counseling session, next Saturday (and see if anything comes out of that?)


The session might be the best place to talk about it.

She's shutting down with you. The more you pursue the farther she moves away. 

It is entirely up to her to decide to make the effort to talk with you. If you are right about another man, then should could simply be waiting this out and get the divorce over.

If there is another man, she is likely talking at length to him and using him for venting and support. That's why she is able to keep you at arms length here, because she has a support system and is using it.

Unless she actually decides to work on communicating and the marriage there is nothing left for you do to. 

So stop trying to find that thing you need to do. There isn't one.


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## DailyGrind

uwa said:


> There is a lack of effort at communication on her part, but I wonder if this could be partly your fault as well.
> 
> I'm looking back a few pages, and there was a time, after you sent the first letter, that she became friendly.


Well...if you may recall...the night before THAT letter, we laid on the table about divorce..and that I would look for a lawyer. That is when I asked her if it would be an uncontested divorce....that it WOULD be joint custody...and we WOULD in all likelihood lose the house. So....it very well could have been the idea of divorce that got her happy-feet going.



uwa said:


> Edit: I also think that perhaps the fact that your thread is on the infidelity section may be skewing the advice a little. Keep that in mind.


This is a VERY good point. Does anyone think I should post a new link in the Relationship Issues section, referencing back to these posts?


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## uwa

DailyGrind said:


> Well...if you may recall...the night before THAT letter, we laid on the table about divorce..and that I would look for a lawyer. That is when I asked her if it would be an uncontested divorce....that it WOULD be joint custody...and we WOULD in all likelihood lose the house. So....it very well could have been the idea of divorce that got her happy-feet going.


It could have been about divorce. It could have been about the letter. You didn't know, and you didn't ask.


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## DailyGrind

uwa said:


> It could have been about divorce. It could have been about the letter. You didn't know, and you didn't ask.


True enough. It was just before Christmas, though....I didn't want to rock the boat at that point. As hard as it may seem...I'm just going to sit back now, and try to not escalate this too much more. I'll just swallow my feelings...seeing as how we can't afford to separate for another three months, anyway. Try and keep the peace for a while...and then start the process then.


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## JustaJerk

To be honest, Daily... I seriously believe your wife has just checked-out of the marriage.

She hasn't done ANYTHING to try and repair this. If she's still angry about the VAR, she's got to get over that because she put herself in the position where there was a question concerning trust. 

Personally, I would've confronted her about this long ago... f*ck the waiting... f*ck the little mind games she's been playing.

Ask her point blank- "Do you want to stay in this marriage, or not.?!?!"

You're in limbo here, bro... you've been in limbo for some time now. It's time for some action.


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## Jellybeans

U have to ask her about the letter. See what she says. I have been u before. It sucks. I realized I was the only person who gave a sh!t in my marriage. That one-sidedness is no way to live. So ask her and tell her how u feel about her non response. If she brushes it off and keeps ignoring u then decide whether u want to live like that. I personally wouldn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uwa

DailyGrind said:


> As hard as it may seem...I'm just going to sit back now, and try to not escalate this too much more. I'll just swallow my feelings...


That's exactly what your wife has been doing. Do you really need communication like that on both sides?

If you are intent on divorce, then perhaps that's the way to go. But if you want to at least try to save your marriage, maybe it's not.

It's not like there aren't mysteries that you could communicate on now. Right now you're speculating on why she's at work, and people are thinking affair. There are so many other possible reasons. Maybe she's upset with the divorce and is simply throwing herself into work. Maybe she resents you for filing and doesn't want to be in the house with you. Maybe she got behind on work and is trying to catch up.

The answer she gives may be bogus, but all you're doing now is reading tea leaves.




DailyGrind said:


> Well...talking directly to her is ineffective. Should I stick with my original thought...wait and see if we go to the rescheduled counseling session, next Saturday (and see if anything comes out of that?)


Why is talking to her less effective? If she gives a non-committal answer in person, what makes you think she will give a committed answer in writing?

The power in your letters is in their ability to convey emotion and clearly define your intentions. It is in their ability to show her that you love her. They were written to help clear up misunderstandings, but at the same time they were also love letters. 

Don't sully that by making them just about legal squabbles.

I'm of the opinion that you don't need to rush this issue of custody. You have 3 months before you are even able to do anything. She already knows you're serious.

Also, right now you have 3 months until you start divorce. Don't confine communication to marriage counselling sessions.

I also get the feeling that you may get defensive about your wife's complaints, just as you did with her e-mails to her almost-EA. But even if you don't believe they are valid issues, they are valid for her. So if you do somehow get her to open up, don't shut her down. Ask her to explain further if needed, but don't argue. Then come away, think about what she's said and how you can address those issues.

So if she voices anything to you, be grateful. It would show she cares. At this point if she attacked you every time she spoke, it would still be better than what you have now.


----------



## gonefishin

JustaJerk said:


> To be honest, Daily... I seriously believe your wife has just checked-out of the marriage.
> 
> She hasn't done ANYTHING to try and repair this. If she's still angry about the VAR, she's got to get over that because she put herself in the position where there was a question concerning trust.
> 
> Personally, I would've confronted her about this long ago... f*ck the waiting... f*ck the little mind games she's been playing.
> 
> Ask her point blank- "Do you want to stay in this marriage, or not.?!?!"
> 
> You're in limbo here, bro... you've been in limbo for some time now. It's time for some action.


Very good advise. There is nothing better than getting to the point. She already know he wants the marriage to work. It is time to cut through the BS
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

uwa said:


> If you are intent on divorce, then perhaps that's the way to go. But if you want to at least try to save your marriage, maybe it's not.


Actually...I am so far from intent on divorce. Beyond ANYTHING I want us to come together, and truly make us the wonderful, bonded couple I always thought we'd be.



uwa said:


> It's not like there aren't mysteries that you could communicate on now. Right now you're speculating on why she's at work, and people are thinking affair. There are so many other possible reasons. Maybe she's upset with the divorce and is simply throwing herself into work. Maybe she resents you for filing and doesn't want to be in the house with you. Maybe she got behind on work and is trying to catch up.


True...I don't KNOW she is having an affair. But..ANY attempt at communication with her, has been met with stone silence. If it isn't about the kids, or some surfacy thing.....she clams up tighter than a drum.



uwa said:


> The answer she gives may be bogus, but all you're doing now is reading tea leaves.


I won't get one.



uwa said:


> Why is talking to her less effective? If she gives a non-committal answer in person, what makes you think she will give a committed answer in writing?


If I ask her directly...she simply won't answer. That's why I'm trying the letters. The ONLY time she has ever tried communicating with me on relationship issues, or communicating deep feelings....she did so by letter. I was hoping this was her method.



uwa said:


> The power in your letters is in their ability to convey emotion and clearly define your intentions. It is in their ability to show her that you love her. They were written to help clear up misunderstandings, but at the same time they were also love letters.


Thanks.



uwa said:


> Don't sully that by making them just about legal squabbles.


Good point.



uwa said:


> I'm of the opinion that you don't need to rush this issue of custody. You have 3 months before you are even able to do anything. She already knows you're serious.
> 
> Also, right now you have 3 months until you start divorce. Don't confine communication to marriage counselling sessions.


I agree....I won't rush this. I don't want to communicate only at the counseling sessions...but if she just won't talk...what can I do? It is horribly frustrating. 



uwa said:


> I also get the feeling that you may get defensive about your wife's complaints, just as you did with her e-mails to her almost-EA.


Three years ago, when she gave me the letters about my issues. Yes...i was defensive. I thought we talked it out. But...I simply had too much anger in me, and didn't take it serious enough. I now realize...THAT was an opportunity for us to seek help, and hopefully have averted all this. She gave me a quick window into her heart...I didn't realize it at the time.



uwa said:


> But even if you don't believe they are valid issues, they are valid for her. So if you do somehow get her to open up, don't shut her down. Ask her to explain further if needed, but don't argue. Then come away, think about what she's said and how you can address those issues.


I told her at our first counseling session, almost two months ago....that I was ready (maybe for the first time) to TRULY listen to her...if she would only talk to me. This was the issue I hoped the counselor would get us through...how to communicate with each other. I think, barring her actually having an affair....if we could only communicate...we might be able to have everything else fall into place.



uwa said:


> So if she voices anything to you, be grateful. It would show she cares. At this point if she attacked you every time she spoke, it would still be better than what you have now.


I guess.


----------



## DailyGrind

JustaJerk said:


> To be honest, Daily... I seriously believe your wife has just checked-out of the marriage.


Is it possible for one to check back INTO a marriage?



JustaJerk said:


> She hasn't done ANYTHING to try and repair this. If she's still angry about the VAR, she's got to get over that because she put herself in the position where there was a question concerning trust.


I agree...other than she did go to a couple counseling sessions.



JustaJerk said:


> Ask her point blank- "Do you want to stay in this marriage, or not.?!?!"


I've asked....and was told "I don't know."



JustaJerk said:


> You're in limbo here, bro... you've been in limbo for some time now. It's time for some action.


YUP!!


----------



## uwa

DailyGrind said:


> If I ask her directly...she simply won't answer. That's why I'm trying the letters. The ONLY time she has ever tried communicating with me on relationship issues, or communicating deep feelings....she did so by letter. I was hoping this was her method.


Maybe your next letter could be about getting her to open up. And leave behind a pen and some blank paper.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Is it possible for one to check back INTO a marriage?
> 
> *I don't think so. Not without a serious epiphany taking place.*
> 
> I agree...other than she did go to a couple counseling sessions.
> 
> *That's not enough IMO. I would ask her in front of the counselor what she has done to KEEP YOU in this marriage.*
> 
> I've asked....and was told "I don't know."
> 
> *Ask again in front of the counselor and if she says she doesn't know tell her you hope she decides before the divorce becomes final. Let her know that YOU are checking out of the marriage if she doesn't turn it around.*
> 
> YUP!!


*If she doesn't react positively during counseling I would turn to the counselor, shake his hand and say "Well thanks for trying anyway. It looks like your services won't be needed anymore because I can't be the only one here who wants to stay married." Then turn around and walk out.*


----------



## working_together

I'm just wondering how she is with the kids? It just seems that someone who is so non-responsive, miserable etc would have some difficulty being happy around her kids?

just wondering how she is with other people.


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## tennisstar

DG, a few things....

One, if she hasn't responded to the letter, she may never respond. My XH wrote me a letter. I felt terrible that I wanted a divorce. His letter begged me to work things out. I never answered. I didn't know what to say. I felt terrible (I lost 25 lbs in 2 months, didn't eat, etc when I wanted to leave), but what could I say? So, she may never answer. 

Also, part of me thinks you are pushing her further away. It like you are constantly talking about the relationship, begging. Nothing turns a woman off more than begging. If she has checked out, this certainly won't help her check back into the marriage.

Just some advice...protect your finances at this point. I have seen some male friends really raked over the coals financially, and I live in a non-alimony state. They have lost most of everything to their XWs. Just some suggestions...start preparing for divorce. If she doesn't open up in counseling, stop going - that's an expense you don't need. Cut out cable; cut out the gym. Cut out any unnecessary expenses. You need to get financially on your feet.

I remember dating a man years ago who was going through a divorce (after that, I NEVER dated a man going through a divorce again). He had already spent $40K on the divorce, had to pay for counseling for both his kids weekly, pay for his wife's apartment (even though she was living with and pregnant by another man), etc. And he was still going to have to give her 1/2 the equity in the house, 1/2 retirement, etc. Watch yourself - divorces get nasty. 

Also, I would be very careful about moving out and living in a little apartment. If you do that, you might be doing it for some time to come (years). I'm sure your wife would love that...you paying the bills and living in a small apartment and her being able to do what she wanted in your home. 

If you have to lose the home, so be it. But I'd be darned before I would let her live in the home with part of your money and you living in a small apartment. If she complains about cutting back, tell her that since she isn't going to reconnect in the marriage, it's time to get your finances straight, cut back, etc. But why men sit back and pay for 2 households and allow their wives to just do what they want, with their money, is beyond me!! When I left, I paid my own bills, I struggled on my own. My XH didn't help, and I didn't expect him to.


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> I'm just wondering how she is with the kids? It just seems that someone who is so non-responsive, miserable etc would have some difficulty being happy around her kids?
> 
> just wondering how she is with other people.


With kids, she is loving...but tends to be short-tempered. Not much patience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

tennisstar said:


> DG, a few things....
> 
> One, if she hasn't responded to the letter, she may never respond. My XH wrote me a letter. I felt terrible that I wanted a divorce. His letter begged me to work things out. I never answered. I didn't know what to say. I felt terrible (I lost 25 lbs in 2 months, didn't eat, etc when I wanted to leave), but what could I say? So, she may never answer.
> 
> Also, part of me thinks you are pushing her further away. It like you are constantly talking about the relationship, begging. Nothing turns a woman off more than begging. If she has checked out, this certainly won't help her check back into the marriage.
> 
> Just some advice...protect your finances at this point. I have seen some male friends really raked over the coals financially, and I live in a non-alimony state. They have lost most of everything to their XWs. Just some suggestions...start preparing for divorce. If she doesn't open up in counseling, stop going - that's an expense you don't need. Cut out cable; cut out the gym. Cut out any unnecessary expenses. You need to get financially on your feet.
> 
> I remember dating a man years ago who was going through a divorce (after that, I NEVER dated a man going through a divorce again). He had already spent $40K on the divorce, had to pay for counseling for both his kids weekly, pay for his wife's apartment (even though she was living with and pregnant by another man), etc. And he was still going to have to give her 1/2 the equity in the house, 1/2 retirement, etc. Watch yourself - divorces get nasty.
> 
> Also, I would be very careful about moving out and living in a little apartment. If you do that, you might be doing it for some time to come (years). I'm sure your wife would love that...you paying the bills and living in a small apartment and her being able to do what she wanted in your home.
> 
> If you have to lose the home, so be it. But I'd be darned before I would let her live in the home with part of your money and you living in a small apartment. If she complains about cutting back, tell her that since she isn't going to reconnect in the marriage, it's time to get your finances straight, cut back, etc. But why men sit back and pay for 2 households and allow their wives to just do what they want, with their money, is beyond me!! When I left, I paid my own bills, I struggled on my own. My XH didn't help, and I didn't expect him to.


Trust me....I have not been all that Beta with her. If anything, I'm fearing I've been racketing up the confrontation level. I think I need to let this simmer for a bit. I never even really went Plan A...as i wasn't really aware of the depth of the issue, until I saw the emails with the one guy. I'm the first one to mention divorce. Not that she's given me any reason to turn back from that line of thought.


----------



## Dadof3

DG:

sit her down across from you on a barstool (if you have one) - in a room away from the kids. Lay your cards out - no more letters - face to face. Tell her that you are grasping for straws, that you've always loved her, you don't understand whats going on with her, and this has made you crazy enough to spy. 

tell her you need some heart-to-heart feedback (even considering that she suspected you of an affair with the strip club stuff) with an objective mind (she's capable - and I call bull**** on her ability to communicate! - she works in the HR for heaven's sake!) that taking all of the emotion out, she needs to tell you whats going on in her mind. 

Ask an open ended question and let her ruminate in it. Tell her that MC is bull****, all of this is bull****. You married her, you love her, and she needs to let you know where she stands. 

Then be prepared to listen. 

Everyone else here has alluded to it (or been very direct!). No more letters, emails, texts. What you guys are lacking is face-to-face interaction. Many mistakes have been made. Tell her you want to start a-new. If she wants out, then you'll have a clear direction of where you want to go.


----------



## Dadof3

And - if you haven't been that "Beta" with her - maybe she's missing this part - remember women like a good mix - not too much Alpha or Beta - but a good balance.


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> And - if you haven't been that "Beta" with her - maybe she's missing this part - remember women like a good mix - not too much Alpha or Beta - but a good balance.


I believe I have some B in me.... I think I've treated her pretty well over the years. If she needs anything, I do whatever she needs. I do housework, I cook (some), I do ALL the baking in our house (I grew up with my mom baking things all the time...so I continue it for the kids), I've always tried to accomodate her, I made her dream of a store happen (involving me doing basically a part-time job for years)...and on and on. I'm the one who takes the kids every year to pick strawberries, blueberries, apples, peaches...and more (and I make strawberry jam, applesauce, canned peaches...to last the whole year).....I grow tons of veggies (beans, tomatoes, peppers, etc....to freeze for the whole year. I take the kids frequently on day trips...cause I have three weeks more vacation a year, than she does. I do her auto repairs/oil changes...can fix most everything. I built a full-wall castle bed for our oldest. When it comes to the family (except when I have to work...which I do quite a bit from home, as well)....I'm there for them.

It is only with respect to whatever is going on with her coldness, that I've been NOT B (I think.) I've never begged her, tried changing her mind, reminice about old times, etc.

Yesterday, she was a little late (again) from work...cause I had the kids. It was weird.....the kids have a habit (on weekends) of wanting to set up camp somewhere in the house, to sleep. The last month (or so) I've started joining them. Thursday night..we setup camp in the livingroom. They wanted to do the same last night. When W came home, they asked her to join us. I was SHOCKED that she agreed. So, we all camped out on the sofa/floor in front of the tv in the livingroom. She's not exactly friendly...but not being mean to me right now. BUT...she STILL hasn't even mentioned the letter I left her Wednesday morning. WTF?? Is she in denial about THIS too? The good news is...apparently...I didn't snore last night. I guess the weight loss (down to almost 185 from 210 at the beginning of the year) is the real difference.


----------



## Dadof3

You are definitely the family man - what I feel is missing here is what types of activities have you done with just her?

I wonder if she's felt neglected (not that what you've done for and with kids is bad - but how much has she been involved with the plans. 

How frequent have your date nights been? ever taken any out of town trips with just your wife?


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> You are definitely the family man - what I feel is missing here is what types of activities have you done with just her?
> 
> I wonder if she's felt neglected (not that what you've done for and with kids is bad - but how much has she been involved with the plans.
> 
> How frequent have your date nights been? ever taken any out of town trips with just your wife?


Good question. Due to finances, our "We Time" has been very limited over the years (since DD2.) I always made attempts to do some things alone. Up until about two years ago..we always planned a Fall weekend into the city, for a weekend. We did try date nights....but typically, she was yawning soon after dinner, and we wound up going home by 9:00. Looking back...YES...we should have done more. And, to be honest...I now regret all the times I could have spent watching tv with her, instead of doing my own things. So...yes....I have no doubt she has an argument there. For a while, I was addicted to Call of Duty. I've long ago given that up....and started spending a lot more time hanging out with the family watching the kids shows. The hard part was that, over the past five years...she pretty much goes to bed at the same time as the kids. Last year, when we tried counseling with our minister...he recommended we spend thirty minutes "Us time" every day. I was more than willing...but she couldn't commit to it for more than a day, before (instead) deciding to go to bed (too tired.) I'll be honest.....I didn't give her as much time as I could have....but I genuinely feel it was a two-way street (more me, on average over the years...but her too.)

As to the plans with the kids....she typically would join sometimes...but when it came to the making jam, applesauce..she never participated. Three years ago, when I made the castle bed (and full-wall mural) in older daughters wall...it was a joint decision to do...but she was a complete no-show on the effort.

In summary...yes...I'm sure I did neglect her to some degree. But...part of that was a reaction to her overall attitude to me. Back, when I was more angry at her over the lack of intimacy/sex...I admit to pulling back from her, to some degree. Before five years ago, though....I made a LOT of effort toward her. It seemed when I got irritated that it seemed all the effort was one-side, that I started to withdrawal. I definitely regret that reaction, now. THAT was the time for better communication. Water under the bridge, now...unfortunately.


----------



## uwa

How much earlier does she go to sleep, and how much later do you wake up?

Do you think the two of you would have a little bit more contact if your sleep schedules were more in sync?


----------



## DailyGrind

uwa said:


> How much earlier does she go to sleep, and how much later do you wake up?
> 
> Do you think the two of you would have a little bit more contact if your sleep schedules were more in sync?


Since I take the girls to school...I typically get up around 7:00....and don't get home from working until around 7:30-8:00 (hour commute each way.) She leaves for work just before 7:00, and picks girls up around 6:00 (also hour commute each way.) By the time I get home, I have just enought time to help put the kids to bed....most times she sees I am "helping" and just goes to bed herself.

So...during the week...we actually have very little interaction. This has been our schedule since she started working, three years ago. THAT, I have not doubt, has been devastating for us. If she'd be willing to go to bed around 9:00-10:00...it would STILL give her 8 hrs of sleep. But...pretty much our entire marriage...this was too late. Unfortunately...i'm a night owl...and 8:00 (especially since I pretty much JUST got home) is too early for me. If she weren't such a light sleeper...I'd have no problem gong to bed at 9:00, and just watching tv (or working on my laptop) in bed, while she fell asleep. But...she's never wanted that.


----------



## uwa

DailyGrind said:


> If she'd be willing to go to bed around 9:00-10:00...it would STILL give her 8 hrs of sleep. But...pretty much our entire marriage...this was too late. Unfortunately...i'm a night owl...and 8:00 (especially since I pretty much JUST got home) is too early for me. If she weren't such a light sleeper...I'd have no problem gong to bed at 9:00, and just watching tv (or working on my laptop) in bed, while she fell asleep. But...she's never wanted that.


Or... you could go to bed at 9, not watch television and or use the laptop, and just try to sleep. You're a night owl, but that doesn't mean you have to stay that way. It'll take some time to adjust, but you'd get some time together in the morning.

If you REALLY can't sleep, and want to do something in bed that doesn't disturb your wife, why not read a book?


----------



## Dadof3

Well, if you both will be sticking it out a bit longer, I think you might benefit from taking a different approach with your spouse. 

Shake things up a bit, invite her to do some different things, invite her along, make her a bit uncomfortable.

Earn the right to be called controlling for once. 

I would say that you actions have been on the Beta side (although you've been distant from the wife). Have you read MMSLP and/or Hold on to your NUT* yet?

recognizing that it maybe too late, I don't think its really too late until she's actually physically moved out of the home and filed for divorce. 

She may have a difficult time trusting you with her heart, but, what have you got to lose at this point? No more Beta - go Alpha with her (less 180 and more interactive). 

Just try it, see what happens. You may get some feedback one way or another.

Your W is reminding me of mine when she enacted her "exit strategy" of being cold and unaffectionate, different bed times. She even verbalized twice that she was only in it until the kids were raised. Much of her behavior was related to her EA of a short period 4 years before, and what she said were my shortcomings.

The only thing that has turned this around was implemented the learnings from MMSLP, NMMNG, and Hold on to your Nut*. She was skeptical about what was being done, but it boiled down to me making her feel secure in all areas of her life. When I practiced it and explained it, she started to understand and becoming accepting that it was the type of behavior she needed to see from me. Believe it or not, she actually eats this stuff up (even more than I do!). Quite frankly, the guy she had an EA with - while he was a loser for the most part - was more Alpha than I (he is the consummate bad boy type) and made her feel more secure emotionally than I. 

No excuse for her, but it makes sense.


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> Well, if you both will be sticking it out a bit longer, I think you might benefit from taking a different approach with your spouse.
> 
> Shake things up a bit, invite her to do some different things, invite her along, make her a bit uncomfortable.
> 
> Earn the right to be called controlling for once.
> 
> I would say that you actions have been on the Beta side (although you've been distant from the wife). Have you read MMSLP and/or Hold on to your NUT* yet?
> 
> recognizing that it maybe too late, I don't think its really too late until she's actually physically moved out of the home and filed for divorce.
> 
> She may have a difficult time trusting you with her heart, but, what have you got to lose at this point? No more Beta - go Alpha with her (less 180 and more interactive).
> 
> Just try it, see what happens. You may get some feedback one way or another.
> 
> Your W is reminding me of mine when she enacted her "exit strategy" of being cold and unaffectionate, different bed times. She even verbalized twice that she was only in it until the kids were raised. Much of her behavior was related to her EA of a short period 4 years before, and what she said were my shortcomings.
> 
> The only thing that has turned this around was implemented the learnings from MMSLP, NMMNG, and Hold on to your Nut*. She was skeptical about what was being done, but it boiled down to me making her feel secure in all areas of her life. When I practiced it and explained it, she started to understand and becoming accepting that it was the type of behavior she needed to see from me. Believe it or not, she actually eats this stuff up (even more than I do!). Quite frankly, the guy she had an EA with - while he was a loser for the most part - was more Alpha than I (he is the consummate bad boy type) and made her feel more secure emotionally than I.
> 
> No excuse for her, but it makes sense.


Thanks, Dad....very good advice. It's worth a try. Although, I've tried to some degree before...I think I might not have given it enough...and was expecting more immediate responses. AND...still in my angry stage about the lack of intimacy. I'm of a different mindset now. I'm a bit more introspective about my own affect on her, now.


----------



## FourtyPlus

MMSLP, NMMNG - are those books?


----------



## Beowulf

FourtyPlus said:


> MMSLP, NMMNG - are those books?


MMSLP - Married Man Sex Life Primer

It's both a blog website and a book by Athol Kay. It's really a lot more about relationships than just about sex. He really gets to the heart of how men and women see each other and what each is really looking for in the other. His MAP (Marriage Action Plan) shows (similar to the 180) how to destabilize and rebuild a marriage (or any relationship) and improve it. It's a very well thought out and well organized strategy for long term relationship success. If you hear the terms "alpha" "beta" and "rationalization hamster" it most likely came from there.

NMMNG - No More Mr. Nice Guy

A book and website by Dr. Robert Glover that talks about how childhood issues like abandonment causes men to contract Nice Guy Syndrome allowing people to essentially walk all over them. They let their wife run them. They will do and say anything to get people to like them. They will avoid conflict like the plague so as not to rock the boat. The run away from their problems. They seem so very much in control until something happens and then their life starts spiraling down a path to destruction. You'd be surprised how much certain aspects of the Nice Guy Syndrome affects every man and many women as well.

Both books and websites are well worth looking into regardless of your situation.


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## Sindo

She is being friendlier with the kids because she realizes she might not have them full-time for much longer.

I know you're frustrated that she won't talk about custody, but let's be honest. You'd probably be more upset if she was going along with it without hesitation.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Beowulf said:


> MMSLP - Married Man Sex Life Primer
> 
> It's both a blog website and a book by Athol Kay. It's really a lot more about relationships than just about sex. He really gets to the heart of how men and women see each other and what each is really looking for in the other. His MAP (Marriage Action Plan) shows (similar to the 180) how to destabilize and rebuild a marriage (or any relationship) and improve it. It's a very well thought out and well organized strategy for long term relationship success. If you hear the terms "alpha" "beta" and "rationalization hamster" it most likely came from there.
> 
> NMMNG - No More Mr. Nice Guy
> 
> A book and website by Dr. Robert Glover that talks about how childhood issues like abandonment causes men to contract Nice Guy Syndrome allowing people to essentially walk all over them. They let their wife run them. They will do and say anything to get people to like them. They will avoid conflict like the plague so as not to rock the boat. The run away from their problems. They seem so very much in control until something happens and then their life starts spiraling down a path to destruction. You'd be surprised how much certain aspects of the Nice Guy Syndrome affects every man and many women as well.
> 
> Both books and websites are well worth looking into regardless of your situation.


Thanks a bunch! Absolutely going to read both!


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## FourtyPlus

OMG! I think I turned my perfectly fine (except for the drinking and violence) alpha male into Mr. Nice Guy!


----------



## DailyGrind

UPDATE:

Okay...I found that my wife was apparently writing notes for some sort of reply to me. Here's what she wrote:

* "You never spoke constructive, never said how you were feeling."
HUH?

* "Learned early that disagreements were met w/ nastiness."
I don't know....maybe defensiveness. But I can never recall being nasty. That being said...this strikes me as the core of the problem. It seems to be a common thread. It appears to me she can not make a distinction between me being mad about SOMETHING, and NASTY at her. I can not dispute her interpretation...she owns that. I can only address the future, and watch how I react to her. She clearly is interpreting that she can NOT approach me about her issues.

* "Had no interest in sitting in smoke-filled karoke bar, but you didn't care..and just got nasty about it."
When we first started dating, I had her join my bowling league with me. There was a bar attached, that on the night we bowled..had karoke night. A few of us would go over after, and drink/karoke. I recall she wasn't exactly enthralled by this...but I figured she did it because I wanted to. But, bitterness over THIS?

* "Didn't like sailing because she was tired of my tone, and didn't like all the money being spent on the boat."
Okay...I can see some of her point here. W has the tendency to freeze-up, when danger appears. A number of times, I definitely had to bark commands to her...just to get her to un-freeze. These were times that made the difference between a $12k boat....and floating timber....OR...sometimes my safety. I admit I did bark at her...but there were MANY more offsetting good times. As to the money....funny....we spent 5x the amount on her business.....but she's bitter about the money I spent on the boat.

* "Riding Horses - gave up riding so we could save money for our Hungary trip. Never got back to it because...." She didn't finish this sentence. Gee...I thought she stopped because she wanted to go back to school for her Masters in HR. That Fall she tested in...and then took courses in the Spring. She never went back, because she wasn't sure she wanted to do this afterall. The following year, is when we opened the store. BUT...gee...sorry I interfered with your horse riding, for a two-week trip to Hungary. And besides.....she took her lessons until the month before our trip. She didn't stop to save money for the trip. She probably did stop, because of the sailboat (we were sailing most weekends.) But then...I guess I didn't realize the extent of her 'sacrifice.'

* "Cat - mean to the cat. Didn't appreciate when you would yank the comforter (at night) to cause the cat to fall off the bed. Sometimes mean, in front of the kids."
Alright....YES...I did make a sport of causing that damned cat to fall off the bed. In SPITE of me being allergic to cats, just before we got married...W brought home a cat, to the house. Cat would CONSTANTLY attack my feet, under the blanket...in the middle of the night. Also, cat made a sport of darting in front of my feet ALL THE TIME, and nearly trip me. I HATE THIS CAT!!! But I never hurt it. Mean....yes...when it would come rubbing on my legs (wife admits it probably does this, cause "cats always go to the ones that don't like them)....I would push it away with my feet. Sometimes I'd probably say disparaging remarks. Guilty as charged.

* "Dog - Didn't like you shoving dogs nose in poop, when house training it. Also, one time pushed dog so hard out the deck door, it scooted down the steps." Fall of 2008 we rescued a beagle. It was a great dog with the kids...but wife hated him. It chewed up EVERYTHING. One time I came into the living room....and stuffing from the sofa was still falling from the air. I shouted NO...and pushed him forcefully out the door. I don't agree he went so fast, he "scooted down the steps"...which are about 20 feet away. He used his own momentum to RUN down the steps. Dog was so horrible chewing things up...we had to cage him. Then, he started pooping his own cage....which REALLY pissed my wife off. She always complained about the dog...so, after a year...I wound up giving him up...to keep the peace. BUT...isn't holding a dogs face to the poop, while shouting "NO" not a recommended method for house training?

* "Says nasty things when driving sometimes...like 'that person should be hauled out of their car, and shot on site.'"
Okay...I agree I've said things like that. You see someone weaving in and out of traffice, nearly causing accidents....you tend to say things. I've been known to give drivers my "death-ray stare." Okay...get pissed at me about it....but bitter?? W has a BAD habit of constant backseat driving (you'd think we drove a Drivers Ed car...for the number of times she has breaked, in the passenger side). Irritates the hell out of me. If I ever mention it to her...."I've always been this way, and won't change." Have I built up bitterness over THAT? no.

* "Garden - tomatoes poking through deck railing."
I have no idea what the hell this is about. I do the bulk of the gardening. But, this year (after getting promoted) I got really too busy to keep up with the garden. SHE was certainly more than welcome (and I DID encourage her) to help...but she never did.

* "Shopping - groceries."
Again...not sure her intent on this note. She has historically done most of the grocery shopping. But then...I have definitely done a LOT of it, as well. If she had an issue that I wasn't doing more of it...she sure could have mentioned it. And then...I'd tell her....sure....and you can help with the cutting grass, house maintenance, paying bills...and all the damn stuff that I do. I do ALL the cleaning dishes. She does the bulk of the cooking...so I figure that is fair. But...when I do the cooking...does she do the dishes??? Heck no.....but then....I'm not getting bitter about it.

Okay....so that's it. Most of the stuff is really just (IMO) normal relationship kind of issues. With the exception of her perception that I am "nasty" to her. No doubt, I have been curt, gruff, irritated with her...various times throughout the relationship. So has she. But...to get to this level of bitterness toward me? So, clearly...I need to get her to open up about these issues with the counselor. I need to NOT go into defensive mode when/if she does open up. But...it would be very hard to hear this stuff and NOT want to defend (as I've done above.) I guess that is what the counselor is for.

OR.....this is all part of the gaslighting and history rewrite because something IS going on at work. What do you guys think? Sorry for the length of this post.


----------



## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> OMG! I think I turned my perfectly fine (except for the drinking and violence) alpha male into Mr. Nice Guy!


??????


----------



## Dadof3

DG: Yes, she needs a counselor pretty bad. A lot of these are cognitive distortions. I think its interesting, a lot of her complaints seem petty, which tells me she's avoiding the real issues at hand. 

Get her to a counselor to help her deal with her cognitive distortions. I see a lot of the issues she mentions as fitness tests. I think she needs to see a proper "man up" moment. Again, I would prescribe those books mentioned before for you and a cognitive distortion counselor for her. 

Does she let on to you regarding her thoughts about the continuing marriage?


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Okay...I found that my wife was apparently writing notes for some sort of reply to me. Here's what she wrote:
> 
> * "You never spoke constructive, never said how you were feeling."
> HUH?
> 
> * "Learned early that disagreements were met w/ nastiness."
> I don't know....maybe defensiveness. But I can never recall being nasty. That being said...this strikes me as the core of the problem. It seems to be a common thread. It appears to me she can not make a distinction between me being mad about SOMETHING, and NASTY at her. I can not dispute her interpretation...she owns that. I can only address the future, and watch how I react to her. She clearly is interpreting that she can NOT approach me about her issues.
> 
> * "Had no interest in sitting in smoke-filled karoke bar, but you didn't care..and just got nasty about it."
> When we first started dating, I had her join my bowling league with me. There was a bar attached, that on the night we bowled..had karoke night. A few of us would go over after, and drink/karoke. I recall she wasn't exactly enthralled by this...but I figured she did it because I wanted to. But, bitterness over THIS?
> 
> * "Didn't like sailing because she was tired of my tone, and didn't like all the money being spent on the boat."
> Okay...I can see some of her point here. W has the tendency to freeze-up, when danger appears. A number of times, I definitely had to bark commands to her...just to get her to un-freeze. These were times that made the difference between a $12k boat....and floating timber....OR...sometimes my safety. I admit I did bark at her...but there were MANY more offsetting good times. As to the money....funny....we spent 5x the amount on her business.....but she's bitter about the money I spent on the boat.
> 
> * "Riding Horses - gave up riding so we could save money for our Hungary trip. Never got back to it because...." She didn't finish this sentence. Gee...I thought she stopped because she wanted to go back to school for her Masters in HR. That Fall she tested in...and then took courses in the Spring. She never went back, because she wasn't sure she wanted to do this afterall. The following year, is when we opened the store. BUT...gee...sorry I interfered with your horse riding, for a two-week trip to Hungary. And besides.....she took her lessons until the month before our trip. She didn't stop to save money for the trip. She probably did stop, because of the sailboat (we were sailing most weekends.) But then...I guess I didn't realize the extent of her 'sacrifice.'
> 
> * "Cat - mean to the cat. Didn't appreciate when you would yank the comforter (at night) to cause the cat to fall off the bed. Sometimes mean, in front of the kids."
> Alright....YES...I did make a sport of causing that damned cat to fall off the bed. In SPITE of me being allergic to cats, just before we got married...W brought home a cat, to the house. Cat would CONSTANTLY attack my feet, under the blanket...in the middle of the night. Also, cat made a sport of darting in front of my feet ALL THE TIME, and nearly trip me. I HATE THIS CAT!!! But I never hurt it. Mean....yes...when it would come rubbing on my legs (wife admits it probably does this, cause "cats always go to the ones that don't like them)....I would push it away with my feet. Sometimes I'd probably say disparaging remarks. Guilty as charged.
> 
> * "Dog - Didn't like you shoving dogs nose in poop, when house training it. Also, one time pushed dog so hard out the deck door, it scooted down the steps." Fall of 2008 we rescued a beagle. It was a great dog with the kids...but wife hated him. It chewed up EVERYTHING. One time I came into the living room....and stuffing from the sofa was still falling from the air. I shouted NO...and pushed him forcefully out the door. I don't agree he went so fast, he "scooted down the steps"...which are about 20 feet away. He used his own momentum to RUN down the steps. Dog was so horrible chewing things up...we had to cage him. Then, he started pooping his own cage....which REALLY pissed my wife off. She always complained about the dog...so, after a year...I wound up giving him up...to keep the peace. BUT...isn't holding a dogs face to the poop, while shouting "NO" not a recommended method for house training?
> 
> * "Says nasty things when driving sometimes...like 'that person should be hauled out of their car, and shot on site.'"
> Okay...I agree I've said things like that. You see someone weaving in and out of traffice, nearly causing accidents....you tend to say things. I've been known to give drivers my "death-ray stare." Okay...get pissed at me about it....but bitter?? W has a BAD habit of constant backseat driving (you'd think we drove a Drivers Ed car...for the number of times she has breaked, in the passenger side). Irritates the hell out of me. If I ever mention it to her...."I've always been this way, and won't change." Have I built up bitterness over THAT? no.
> 
> * "Garden - tomatoes poking through deck railing."
> I have no idea what the hell this is about. I do the bulk of the gardening. But, this year (after getting promoted) I got really too busy to keep up with the garden. SHE was certainly more than welcome (and I DID encourage her) to help...but she never did.
> 
> * "Shopping - groceries."
> Again...not sure her intent on this note. She has historically done most of the grocery shopping. But then...I have definitely done a LOT of it, as well. If she had an issue that I wasn't doing more of it...she sure could have mentioned it. And then...I'd tell her....sure....and you can help with the cutting grass, house maintenance, paying bills...and all the damn stuff that I do. I do ALL the cleaning dishes. She does the bulk of the cooking...so I figure that is fair. But...when I do the cooking...does she do the dishes??? Heck no.....but then....I'm not getting bitter about it.
> 
> Okay....so that's it. Most of the stuff is really just (IMO) normal relationship kind of issues. With the exception of her perception that I am "nasty" to her. No doubt, I have been curt, gruff, irritated with her...various times throughout the relationship. So has she. But...to get to this level of bitterness toward me? So, clearly...I need to get her to open up about these issues with the counselor. I need to NOT go into defensive mode when/if she does open up. But...it would be very hard to hear this stuff and NOT want to defend (as I've done above.) I guess that is what the counselor is for.
> 
> OR.....this is all part of the gaslighting and history rewrite because something IS going on at work. What do you guys think? Sorry for the length of this post.


Please read this and describe your tone. In a nutshell you come of as mean and nasty. I wonder now if she 's not afraid to talk to you. This sounds just like your earlier thread. You should check into anger mgt. and see if there is an anger test.


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> DG: Yes, she needs a counselor pretty bad. A lot of these are cognitive distortions. I think its interesting, a lot of her complaints seem petty, which tells me she's avoiding the real issues at hand.
> 
> Get her to a counselor to help her deal with her cognitive distortions. I see a lot of the issues she mentions as fitness tests. I think she needs to see a proper "man up" moment. Again, I would prescribe those books mentioned before for you and a cognitive distortion counselor for her.
> 
> Does she let on to you regarding her thoughts about the continuing marriage?


I've read NMMNG, and have tried "Hold On to Your NUTS". Along with "Love Busters", "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Getting the Love You Want". DEFINITELY NMMNG struck home. It hit a LOT of chords with me, and is one of the main reasons I am seeking IC this new year. I've not revealed on here....but did to her...AND...in our last MC......I was the victim of sex abuse, at the hands of my older brother, from around 9 through 12 years old. I had only JUST come to terms with it, and discussed with my mother..about two years before W and I met. I'm sure it has some impact on how I relate to my wife...but frankly...didn't really think so before. I KNOW I have abandonment issues, but...oddly...have very strong flight (fight or flight) tendencies.

I guess I have to research cognitive distortion now?


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Please read this and describe your tone. In a nutshell you come of as mean and nasty. I wonder now if she 's not afraid to talk to you. This sounds just like your earlier thread. You should check into anger mgt. and see if there is an anger test.


Really? Wow....that really hits home. I guess I have a lot of IC to do....I didn't think it sounded so. Not sure what to say. If you are seeing that....then clearly it IS an issue. :scratchhead:


----------



## uwa

She's reaching out. That's a good sign.

Maybe this is why she's staying late at work. To work on her reply letter in private.

Those notes are incomplete. Wait until you have the complete, finished letter before making judgement. 

You're still sounding defensive and dismissive about some of this. Put a cap on it and take her seriously.

It doesn't matter whether these resentments are boosted by an affair. There is likely truth in all of these. As I said, they may not be valid to you, but are valid to her. She is putting work into this. Address the contents of her letter with respect.

I think you almost want there to be an affair, so that there would be one single thing you could focus on and fix. But in your situation I don't think there would be a fix to an affair. I think your marriage problems are many and more complex.


----------



## Catherine602

Just giving some feedback based on what you posted. She is doing what you have asked her for years to do she is communicating her feelings and why she shut down. They may be skewed in her favor but that is how she sees it. The main thing is she told you. 

Now it is your chance to receive her communication without getting defensive and angry. You asked and you got. I don't know what you expected. Your response to her note is an example of how you deal with her expression of displeasure I think. 

You rationalize why you are right, you dismiss her feelings because it does not bother you and your answer is to point out her faults. Another thing seems to come through, you seem to have little insight into how your actions effect others. 

Some of the behaviors you describe with the animals are needlessly crude. This behavior is immature and not good for kids to see. Being allergic to the cat and not liking it does not stop it from being a cat. 

There are better more adult and adaptive ways to handle all of the situations you described. You have to control yourself as a man with the resposibility to lead the family and model behavior for your kids. 

If you act like one of the kids, your wife will lose respect for you and therefore sexual attraction. I can see why she does not communicate with you if your reaction to her note is an example of your usual response. It may seem to her to be useless communicating anything with you because you justified you action based on what she is doing wrong. 

At present, you seem unable to look at the effect of your behavior and attitudes on your wife and kids and taking the responsibility to explore what your wife needs and to accept that they are her needs and to decide if you can meet them and she can meet yours. 

She is not lacking in expression. She was expressive with this other man and she has attempted the same with you. Where as he was able to let her have her feelings you seem to want her to negate them in favor of how you see things. I am only telling you from this side of the problem going on what you say. 

I think if you continue in your present approach, you marriage will not survive. You must rethink how you approach this communication. If you go at it like you have here then you have learned nothing. You have legitimate grips but you have to be smart about how to address them. 

You can not address them by pointing out how wrong she is just as she cannot do that to you. Someone has to make the first move to a more functional form of communication. Why can't that someone be you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

Catherine602 said:


> Just giving some feedback based on what you posted. She is doing what you have asked her for years to do she is communicating her feelings and why she shut down. They may be skewed in her favor but that is how she sees it. The main thing is she told you.
> 
> Now it is your chance to receive her communication without getting defensive and angry. You asked and you got. I don't know what you expected. Your response to her note is an example of how you deal with her expression of displeasure I think.
> 
> You rationalize why you are right, you dismiss her feelings because it does not bother you and your answer is to point out her faults. Another thing seems to come through, you seem to have little insight into how your actions effect others.
> 
> Some of the behaviors you describe with the animals are needlessly crude. This behavior is immature and not good for kids to see. Being allergic to the cat and not liking it does not stop it from being a cat.
> 
> There are better more adult and adaptive ways to handle all of the situations you described. You have to control yourself as a man with the resposibility to lead the family and model behavior for your kids.
> 
> If you act like one of the kids, your wife will lose respect for you and therefore sexual attraction. I can see why she does not communicate with you if your reaction to her note is an example of your usual response. It may seem to her to be useless communicating anything with you because you justified you action based on what she is doing wrong.
> 
> At present, you seem unable to look at the effect of your behavior and attitudes on your wife and kids and taking the responsibility to explore what your wife needs and to accept that they are her needs and to decide if you can meet them and she can meet yours.
> 
> She is not lacking in expression. She was expressive with this other man and she has attempted the same with you. Where as he was able to let her have her feelings you seem to want her to negate them in favor of how you see things. I am only telling you from this side of the problem going on what you say.
> 
> I think if you continue in your present approach, you marriage will not survive. You must rethink how you approach this communication. If you go at it like you have here then you have learned nothing. You have lagitamate grips but you have to be smart about how to address them.
> 
> You can not address them by pointing out how wrong she is just as she cannot do that to you. Someone has to make the first move to a more functional form of communication. Why can't that someone be you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Catherine,

I don't disagree with anything you say. In my defense, though....what I posted above was for YOU ALL...not my wife. I was posted the context of her comments. They were not my response to her. She has yet to give me anything. I found these notes in her lunchbag. I realize, in the past...I probably would have resonded similarly to the above. I do realize now, that she must have some validity to what she is saying. I DID, at the end of my post, say "I need to NOT go into defensive mode when/if she does open up. But...it would be very hard to hear this stuff and NOT want to defend (as I've done above.) I guess that is what the counselor is for."

I agree. I guess I never really realized how I was coming across. Something I need to work on.


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## FourtyPlus

Dog Chewing on couch = "I'm bored. Nobody's playing with me."
Dog pooping in kennel after being put there for saying he's bored = "I feel rejected, unloved and cut out of the family" or "I had to poop but wasn't able to let you know because you put me in the kennel!" Most likely it was the first though.
We have two dogs, we've always had dogs (have a bunch of cats too) and they all do have their very own personalities and have their own language of saying things. 

Cats! I have 4 cats and they rub against our legs as a sign of love and friendship. If the cat rubbed against your legs, it was saying "I like you!" and then you pushed it away with your feet. Cats like to play, your feet probably seemed perfect for the cat to play with. Not that you have to put up with that, I wouldn't do that either but you could have found a solution for that (not putting it in a kennel though!)

I might be totally off but many of the things on her list seem very minor and a lot of it is stuff that many people go through in their marriage. My husband drives like a 70 year old, forgets most of the time where he's headed. On the other hand, I'm a notorious for running red lights, stop signs and I always try to get to point B faster than the last time. Do I get crap for that? You bet but we both laugh about each others driving and gee, it's not a big deal at all.
Seems there are a bunch of little things that snowballed into resentment over the years and since she is working on talking to you, I think that's a pretty good sign. Could it be that she has someone at work that is coaching her on how to fix her marriage?

Last but not least, Beowulf explained MMSLP, NMMNG to me earlier and after I started reading, I realized that I appearantly have turned my perfectly fine alpha male into Mr. Nice Guy (totally unrelated to this topic and I didn't think when I posted that).


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## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> I have not posted on this forum since the last time I posted on your thread but still followed it. This is exactly what I told you from the beginning. You and others jumped all over me so I quit posting.
> 
> Your wife is not having an affair she is lost and full of resentment against you. And, accusing her of having one and spying on her has done her in. It is no wonder she is so cold to you. You are not trying hard enough to show your love everything is about you.


The accusing of the A happened well AFTER she went cold. That being said.....I'm willing to re-evaluate my entire dynamic with her, and see where MY behavior has caused issues with her. It still doesn't mean she is NOT having an A, though. But, I don't agree it is all about me. I believe I have tried a lot, over the years, to show my love. Clearly....I wasn't speaking her language though. Thanks for the input, however. I do appreciate all perspectives.


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## uwa

DailyGrind said:


> The accusing of the A happened well AFTER she went cold. That being said.....I'm willing to re-evaluate my entire dynamic with her, and see where MY behavior has caused issues with her. It still doesn't mean she is NOT having an A, though. But, I don't agree it is all about me. I believe I have tried a lot, over the years, to show my love. Clearly....I wasn't speaking her language though. Thanks for the input, however. I do appreciate all perspectives.


As hard as you may have worked, can you acknowledge that you were greatly responsible for the breakdown of communication?


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## working_together

I maybe wrong, but I think a lot of the issues she is presenting to you sound really petty, I actually chuckled at the tomatoe plant thing, really? you're growing a garden for pete's sake. We do some gardening, started it for the kids, I was so happy hubby was getting more involved with the kids, sometimes it wouldn't have been the way I would do it, but I bit my tongue and let him have his fun.

The cat thing....I'm a cat lover of course, but yeah, they're under our feet, and hubby has had some near fatal accidents tripping on them, he gets angry about it, but I'll say something to him about it and not let it fester.

Anyway, it sounds like you're probably a great dad, and husband at times, BUT, it also sounds like you have the tendency to get easily frustrated with things, and this bothers her (driving issues), and she sounds overly sensitive about a lot of stuff.

just my thoughts,


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## DailyGrind

uwa said:


> As hard as you may have worked, can you acknowledge that you were greatly responsible for the breakdown of communication?


I admit I contributed to the breakdown. I admit I have issues I have to work on.


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## uwa

Good.

Whatever you do, don't blameshift. That's a word used a lot on these forums about unfaithful spouses, but the truth is anyone can do it. You've done it before when she has summoned the courage to bring up her issues. As some say on these forums, own your own sh*t.

If any issue is important enough for her to include in this letter, then it needs to be addressed properly. It doesn't matter how petty you believe it is.


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## DailyGrind

uwa said:


> Good.
> 
> Whatever you do, don't blameshift. That's a word used a lot on these forums about unfaithful spouses, but the truth is anyone can do it. You've done it before when she has summoned the courage to bring up her issues. As some say on these forums, own your own sh*t.
> 
> If any issue is important enough for her to include in this letter, then it needs to be addressed properly. It doesn't matter how petty you believe it is.


I agree....but...at the same time, I can't just accept blame for everything. If her charges are gaslighting, it does me no good to just assume all fault. I think that is why it is important for us to open these issues with the MC....let her help us address the core issues, without getting sidetracked by petty grievances.


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## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> I maybe wrong, but I think a lot of the issues she is presenting to you sound really petty, I actually chuckled at the tomatoe plant thing, really? you're growing a garden for pete's sake. We do some gardening, started it for the kids, I was so happy hubby was getting more involved with the kids, sometimes it wouldn't have been the way I would do it, but I bit my tongue and let him have his fun.
> 
> The cat thing....I'm a cat lover of course, but yeah, they're under our feet, and hubby has had some near fatal accidents tripping on them, he gets angry about it, but I'll say something to him about it and not let it fester.
> 
> Anyway, it sounds like you're probably a great dad, and husband at times, BUT, it also sounds like you have the tendency to get easily frustrated with things, and this bothers her (driving issues), and she sounds overly sensitive about a lot of stuff.
> 
> just my thoughts,


The thing about the cat is that knowing I am allergic....she brought it into our home, anyway. Yes...I've gotten irritated a number of times. But, I don't yell at it, or treat it mean.

Yes...I admit I DO get frustrated...and understand this bothers her. I just didn't realize how MUCH it bothered her. I agree...it seems to me that her issues listed just seem like normal relationship issues.....with the exception of the "tone" comment. That seems to indicate that we have different perceptions on my "style." I am, in all likelihood, coming across more harsh than I think. But she is probably taking things too seriously, as well. At least that is my perception. Otherwise....I'd have to consider the possibility I am as big a monster as she is portraying me.


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## snap

Clearly you ruined her life with your karaoke bar, the boat, tomato thing and the groceries. Sheesh. And being disrespectful to her cat? Her messing around can't even approach an insult like that!

You better sit her and the cat together and apologize profusely!


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## the guy

I hope thats sarcasim?


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## snap

the_guy, of course.

Really, am sure DG could come up with more impressive list of his own annoyances, and they are just that, annoyances. This note of her looks like a failed attempt to rationalize her affair; probably it wasn't delivered because she realized how petty her issues look when put down on paper.


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## FourtyPlus

There isn't any evidence of an affair as far as I can see.


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## snap

Have to admit it's been a while since I read this thread in full, but weren't there some emails amounting to at least an EA?

Maybe it's just me seeing affairs on every corner now, if so - my apologies.


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## golfergirl

snap said:


> Have to admit it's been a while since I read this thread in full, but weren't there some emails amounting to at least an EA?
> 
> Maybe it's just me seeing affairs on every corner now, if so - my apologies.


Yes there was an emotional affair with a dad from dance class.
Wife should apologize to tomato plants too! Yes that's sarcasm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gonefishin

DailyGrind

Your wife has issues with you. The problem with a forum like this is that every story is one sided.

The people that answer posts are giving you their opinions based on what they "know". You are feeding the readers one side of your story. Based on the few sentences you gave us and your defensive posture in your answers to your wifes remarks you will not be able to solve your communication problems with your wife.

Here is a perfect example: You are allergic to cats. You passively agreed to let you wife have a cat. Why? This is a huge deal. You are allergic. Remember the saying pick you battles. This is a battle you should have fought. Now you have the cat and you are acting like a child.

The boat vs horseback riding. It would have meant the world to your wife if you gave up sailing for her horseback riding. This was probably very important to her. Probably more important that having you sign her up in "your" bowling league.

My wife is a runner. Runs everyday, good for her, it is her thing. I asked her once to learn how to play tennis and golf so we could do things together. She replied, "why don't you run with me". My reply good point. I do not run and she does not play tennis or golf end of story.


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## Halien

DailyGrind,
Keep in mind that you presented a post about your wife's budding EA with another man, and not a thread about normal marital problems. People can't offer objective advice on your marriage based on the type of information you provided, so don't be so hard on yourself. I admit that when I read the partial list that you found, where she listed her thoughts, I also thought that you were describing the feelings of a 13 year old, instead of a supposedly mature woman. Hey, I've been married 24 years, and if my wife listed a cat or tomato vines as part of the reasons for resentment, we both would've taken it a a really funny joke and laughed about it for weeks. I do remember that you talked briefly about her past, and past relationships. Sounds like she has little knowledge on how to maintain a normal relationship, and you also are willing to look at your own flaws. Seriously, I would suggest approaching her, hat in hand, and offer that this is the perfect time to start over, and that you want to do it right. Be honest about both of your own pasts and ask her if she would be willing to start over, this time under the guidance of a good couselor, marriage retreats, and books on communication. Tell her honestly the kind of husband that you want to be in her life, and then its completely up to her if she wants to restore the relationship, or walk away. What more can you do?


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## DailyGrind

Halien said:


> DailyGrind,
> Keep in mind that you presented a post about your wife's budding EA with another man, and not a thread about normal marital problems. People can't offer objective advice on your marriage based on the type of information you provided, so don't be so hard on yourself. I admit that when I read the partial list that you found, where she listed her thoughts, I also thought that you were describing the feelings of a 13 year old, instead of a supposedly mature woman. Hey, I've been married 24 years, and if my wife listed a cat or tomato vines as part of the reasons for resentment, we both would've taken it a a really funny joke and laughed about it for weeks. I do remember that you talked briefly about her past, and past relationships. Sounds like she has little knowledge on how to maintain a normal relationship, and you also are willing to look at your own flaws. Seriously, I would suggest approaching her, hat in hand, and offer that this is the perfect time to start over, and that you want to do it right. Be honest about both of your own pasts and ask her if she would be willing to start over, this time under the guidance of a good couselor, marriage retreats, and books on communication. Tell her honestly the kind of husband that you want to be in her life, and then its completely up to her if she wants to restore the relationship, or walk away. What more can you do?


Thanks, Halien. Yes....I started off last year, when she went cold. Then re-emerged this year, when the EA started up. I guess the issue is that since...this whole relationship has been escalating out of control. I don't know what is happening...and it seems like an out of control buggy, heading for a cliff. Reading more and more on these forums, I now wonder if the reason for her going cold (2 years ago) was because of a different EA...and this "list" of grievances is nothing more than blameshifting. The only evidence I could find of SOMTHING going on at work, was the VAR finding her talking to someone (work related...it appeared) on her drives home...but NOT with HER phone. I agree.....the bulk of the "list" seems petty..with exception of her issues with my tone. THAT I can work on. And the majority of it was YEARS ago. I mean...the karoke was before we were even married. I sold the boat in 2003. The dog was three years ago.

So...she is either harboring serious resentments over small things, because she just doesn't communicate with me. Or...there is an A, and she is grasping at things to justify. I can't tell.

The thing about my "tone" issues....I KNOW that for every time I might have responded to her with "nastiness"....there had to be any number of other times where I agreed with her...and accepted her comments. It just seems that this SHOULD be workable....but we will see....hopefully. Really comes back to if she is having an A, or not. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Halien

DailyGrind said:


> Thanks, Halien. Yes....I started off last year, when she went cold. Then re-emerged this year, when the EA started up. I guess the issue is that since...this whole relationship has been escalating out of control. I don't know what is happening...and it seems like an out of control buggy, heading for a cliff. Reading more and more on these forums, I now wonder if the reason for her going cold (2 years ago) was because of a different EA...and this "list" of grievances is nothing more than blameshifting. The only evidence I could find of SOMTHING going on at work, was the VAR finding her talking to someone (work related...it appeared) on her drives home...but NOT with HER phone. I agree.....the bulk of the "list" seems petty..with exception of her issues with my tone. THAT I can work on. And the majority of it was YEARS ago. I mean...the karoke was before we were even married. I sold the boat in 2003. The dog was three years ago.
> 
> So...she is either harboring serious resentments over small things, because she just doesn't communicate with me. Or...there is an A, and she is grasping at things to justify. I can't tell.
> 
> The thing about my "tone" issues....I KNOW that for every time I might have responded to her with "nastiness"....there had to be any number of other times where I agreed with her...and accepted her comments. It just seems that this SHOULD be workable....but we will see....hopefully. Really comes back to if she is having an A, or not. Thanks for the reply.


Through the years, before the EA, the more appropriate question, in my opinion, was in whether or not she was actively working to make the marriage good. Some of the comments about her make it seem like she could be a person who merely coasts, expecting the other person to provide the spark for the types of feelings to keep the relationship strong. Some other posters have advised ways that you could provide that spark, but that doesn't get her off the hook for needing to be actively working, for her part, on the relationship. You've admitted to letting things distract you in the past. That's good. If the two of you give each other a chance, you can learn from this and be the person she needs. Still, what's been missing from the story, in my opinion, is whether SHE has ever understood what it means to actively work to foster a strong marriage. She comes across as a person who naturally withdraws, but there really isn't enough here to judge. For all of our own marital problems, my wife has still done a really good job of letting go of trivial differences, understanding that they weren't intentional hurts. She also knows that each of us must look inward, to our own lack of trying, when we feel that the relationship is struggling. So, since this was a thread about her EA, I wouldn't even expect these types of relationship ideals to be discussed, but it becomes very relevant going forward, if the two of you choose to work on it. 

To try to be clearer - if she doesn't know how to work to build a mutually satisfying relationship, then anything you do to make her happy will only be temporary. Its not uncommon, I suspect, for those who are drawn to EAs and PAs to be the type of person who doesn't really understand their own responsibilities in fostering a deep, permanent relationship. They expect the feelings to be provided by another at all times, and don't see the linkage to forgiving, and working hard to connect to the one they are married to in the dry spells. Our pre-marital counselor was an imposing, determined Comanchee native american. I'm half-blood, decended from a tribe that assimilated early, so our relationship was a bit quirky. Still, the thing that he told us, which has always stuck with me, is that if I think that the marriage is troubled, then I should look inward, and judge myself, then fix myself before even thinking about her faults. Your wife chose to try to find this spark from another, instead of looking inward.


----------



## working_together

Halien said:


> DailyGrind,
> Keep in mind that you presented a post about your wife's budding EA with another man, and not a thread about normal marital problems. People can't offer objective advice on your marriage based on the type of information you provided, so don't be so hard on yourself. I admit that when I read the partial list that you found, where she listed her thoughts, I also thought that you were describing the feelings of a 13 year old, instead of a supposedly mature woman. Hey, I've been married 24 years, and if my wife listed a cat or tomato vines as part of the reasons for resentment, we both would've taken it a a really funny joke and laughed about it for weeks. I do remember that you talked briefly about her past, and past relationships. Sounds like she has little knowledge on how to maintain a normal relationship, and you also are willing to look at your own flaws. Seriously, I would suggest approaching her, hat in hand, and offer that this is the perfect time to start over, and that you want to do it right. Be honest about both of your own pasts and ask her if she would be willing to start over, this time under the guidance of a good couselor, marriage retreats, and books on communication. Tell her honestly the kind of husband that you want to be in her life, and then its completely up to her if she wants to restore the relationship, or walk away. What more can you do?


:iagree:


----------



## Beowulf

Halien suggested a marriage retreat and when I think about what you've posted that suggestion resonated with me for some reason. Is there a way that you and your wife could get away to Dr. Harley's Marriagebuilders place in Minnesota or somewhere similar to give your marriage a booster shot. Sometimes being immersed in a place dedicated to marriage can allow you both to leave your day to day issues behind while force feeding each of you the building blocks of a successful relationship. I think it would be worthwhile if you could swing it.


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## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> Halien suggested a marriage retreat and when I think about what you've posted that suggestion resonated with me for some reason. Is there a way that you and your wife could get away to Dr. Harley's Marriagebuilders place in Minnesota or somewhere similar to give your marriage a booster shot. Sometimes being immersed in a place dedicated to marriage can allow you both to leave your day to day issues behind while force feeding each of you the building blocks of a successful relationship. I think it would be worthwhile if you could swing it.


Good idea, guys. We have less than a week until our next scheduled MC session. I'm not sure if she plans on going. I think a lot of questions may be answered (whether we should be in CWI or Relationship Issues), depending on how that goes down. As for the retreat.....we started seeing an Imago Therapist. They have retreats, as well. Depending on how the counseling goes....it sure is less expensive to do the retreat, than to go through divorce. You guys have been very helpful. Here's to hoping 2012 isn't as dire, as I was fearing. THANKS!


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## working_together

I really doubt she is having an EA at this point, I think she is basically fed up with the marriage, and doesn't have good communication skills to express her needs and wants. She can't even answer a letter for god's sake. That would frustrate me to no end, so I see where some of your frustration lies. It seems like you both have a pattern of not dealing with stuff that bothers one another, let it buildup, then she withdraws, holds resentment etc. I really don't know what the answer is at this point, things aren't seemingly getting better.

So, I agree with another poster who said that you have to sit down and lay it all out for her, but not in a manner whereby she can get defensive or blame shift. Straight up and to the point, "you want to work on this, or not", and go to MC. Give yourself a time frame of how long you're willing to work on this, let's say 6 months, if nothing changes, you both need to think of your happeness, and move on. She can't be in limbo about y
our marriage, it's a black and white sitch.

I can go on about what bugs me about my husband and all the little things he does that drives me nuts and him about me, but I choose to address the major issues, because there is usually an underlying issue that keeps couples in this vicious cycle. So, when hubby and I are in a good place, he tries not to do the things that bug me, and vice versa. They then become easier to let go of. For instance, we both have different standards of what our house should look like, we usually have blow-ups about this when we're not getting our own needs met.

I hope this makes sense, I talk much better than I write lol


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## Almostrecovered

not to hijack too much but...

"BUT...isn't holding a dogs face to the poop, while shouting "NO" not a recommended method for house training?"


incorrect it is not recommended to potty train a dog that way, it simply does no good, dogs don't make the connection to the punishment like that unless you flat out catch him in the middle of it (in which case you shout no and then place the dog outside and then praise him when he finishes outside.)


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## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> not to hijack too much but...
> 
> "BUT...isn't holding a dogs face to the poop, while shouting "NO" not a recommended method for house training?"
> 
> 
> incorrect it is not recommended to potty train a dog that way, it simply does no good, dogs don't make the connection to the punishment like that unless you flat out catch him in the middle of it (in which case you shout no and then place the dog outside and then praise him when he finishes outside.)


Ok. But...it's not like I was shoving his face INTO the poop....so odd that it made her list.


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## WhereAmI

Almostrecovered said:


> not to hijack too much but...
> 
> "BUT...isn't holding a dogs face to the poop, while shouting "NO" not a recommended method for house training?"
> 
> 
> incorrect it is not recommended to potty train a dog that way, it simply does no good, dogs don't make the connection to the punishment like that unless you flat out catch him in the middle of it (in which case you shout no and then place the dog outside and then praise him when he finishes outside.)


Yep. In fact, it just makes the dog fearful of bowel movements. The dog was likely holding it in until it was physically impossible, which meant continually crapping in the house. There was likely nothing wrong with that dog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FourtyPlus

She might not have cared that much about the dog having his face brought within close proximity to the poop but the way you reacted to the dog pooping in the kennel. Not sure what to think about the tomatoes though - that's kinda pitty stuff.


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## working_together

Almostrecovered said:


> not to hijack too much but...
> 
> "BUT...isn't holding a dogs face to the poop, while shouting "NO" not a recommended method for house training?"
> 
> 
> incorrect it is not recommended to potty train a dog that way, it simply does no good, dogs don't make the connection to the punishment like that unless you flat out catch him in the middle of it (in which case you shout no and then place the dog outside and then praise him when he finishes outside.)


And that's why I hate dogs, they always crap everywhere, I'll stick with my cats and the litter boxes.


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## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> And that's why I hate dogs, they always crap everywhere, I'll stick with my cats and the litter boxes.


When she got the cat...I told her it was HERS. She does the cleaning and care of the cat. She frequently puts off the litter box cleaning, until the cat winds up pooping somewhere else. Of course, when she was pregnant...I had to do it. Last three years, cat has had stomach problems...and yacks ALL OVER the house (nearly daily.) W doesn't like to clean it up...so we wind up with yack all over the place. She likes to wait until it dries to clean up. QUITE disgusting. I swear...there was a pile of yack in the bedroom that she didn't clean up for almost a year....it stained the hardwood floor. I've voiced my displeasure over this..any number of times. Kids own the basement. One time, last year...I had to get VERY insistent that she clean it up....there were at least five places with yack...and the kids were forced to play AROUND the piles. But yes...*I* am the problem. {sigh}

Yes...I am quite sure I could come up with my own list of bitter issues. But I just don't work that way. I get irritated about stuff, and maybe quite huffy.....but....ten minutes later, I'm over it. I don't store my bitterness.


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## Dadof3

Lot of allergies are fatal. this is a battle I would have made a stand on, if it was detrimental to my health, and I love cats!


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## WhereAmI

My dad always pulled that crap. He'd ask my mother how she could walk past something that was a mess. The catch? He'd say that while he walked past the mess. My mom preferred to stew in her anger so that left me, a child, to call him on his ****. That never ended well for any of us. (I'm close with my father now. I think I'm the only person he's never been able to intimidate, which he must respect. LOL)

I know the cat was supposed to be her responsibility, but did you really think you'd never have to lift a finger? H and I have different chores, but every now and then I'll take care of his just because he deserves a break. You sound very stubborn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

WhereAmI said:


> My dad always pulled that crap. He'd ask my mother how she could walk past something that was a mess. The catch? He'd say that while he walked past the mess. My mom preferred to stew in her anger so that left me, a child, to call him on his ****. That never ended well for any of us. (I'm close with my father now. I think I'm the only person he's never been able to intimidate, which he must respect. LOL)
> 
> I know the cat was supposed to be her responsibility, but did you really think you'd never have to lift a finger? H and I have different chores, but every now and then I'll take care of his just because he deserves a break. You sound very stubborn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well...yeah...about the cat, I am. I never wanted it. She did. It's not I don't do PLENTY around the house. I'm not saying she doesn't ....but plain out....I was pretty clear...if she's going to subject me to that cat...she had to the work for it. How is this unclear to her. Anything else in the house...if it needs correcting, I will jump to do so. I don't really make a big deal about the cat yack...just assume she will do it as her job in the house. But...when it gets to the point that the kids have to play aroud it...I bring it up. It is pretty much the only "boundary" I set up with her. Yes....i expect her to honor her deal. If I started cleaning up after it...you guys would be accusing me of being a doormat....wouldn't you? I admit I'm being stubborn about it....but one of the few things.


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## MarriedTex

DailyGrind said:


> Well...yeah...about the cat, I am. I never wanted it. She did. It's not I don't do PLENTY around the house. I'm not saying she doesn't ....but plain out....I was pretty clear...if she's going to subject me to that cat...she had to the work for it. How is this unclear to her. Anything else in the house...if it needs correcting, I will jump to do so. I don't really make a big deal about the cat yack...just assume she will do it as her job in the house. But...when it gets to the point that the kids have to play aroud it...I bring it up. It is pretty much the only "boundary" I set up with her. Yes....i expect her to honor her deal. If I started cleaning up after it...you guys would be accusing me of being a doormat....wouldn't you? I admit I'm being stubborn about it....but one of the few things.


Puuulllleeeeaase. You and your wife are perfect for each other. You're both absolutely immature and act/talk like fourth graders. It's no wonder your marriage is going down the tubes. You get sidetracked on petty one-upsmanship, niggling over little details of injustice to demonstrate who's being aggrieved more. 

So, to deal directly with the cat issue, be a man and set some boundaries. Or be an adult and deal with the situation. If you set boundaries, tell her that her cat is puking and that if it doesn't get cleaned up, the cat is going to the shelter. If you would prefer to be an adult, you agreed to have the cat in your house and you have to realize that you gotta suck it up sometimes and clean up the problem yourself. In short, man up. Set boundaries or get the job done. Don't be a whiny little mush mouth. Jeez.

You appear to have an incredbily unhealthy relationship dynamic. Both focus on extremely petty stuff. She feels like your petty stuff gets better treatement in the relationship than her petty stuff. So she tries to make a list of petty things that amounts to grievances that have more weight or "value" than the sum of your petty grievances.

You both have resentments a mile deep that needs to be addressed. The pettiness of her list should be an eye-opener. Why does she hold on to issues from years ago like this? And if something like the karoke at the bowling alley was such a big deal, why did she marry you in the first place. 

Someone's got to be the adult here. She won't talk to you because she feels like you're going to shout her down or belittle what she has to say. That environment lets even little slights fester for years. If I were you, I'd enlist in individual counseling and tell her that you're doing it so that you "can become a better listener" so that I can respond more practively in the relationship.

In short, if you want to be a married adult, start acting like one.


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## FourtyPlus

Just thinking about that cat story. You know I think your wife got one past you with that cat. She knew you had allergies right? She got the cat anyway, right? Allergies irritate you, don't they? Then the cat gets older and starts having stomach problems. Puke allover the house. Wife doesn't clean it up, you get upset about the cat puke. 

That cat represents everything your wife has to nag about you and everything you have to nag about your wife.

Don't believe for a second that your cat doesn't like you! It rubs against you, it likes you. Your wife simply told you it didn't like you to poke you a bit. Everytime she sees the cat, she smiles a little because you hate it and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. I don't know if she got the cat for that very reason, it might have been sub concious.

If I were you, I would go get me some pills to be able to deal with those allergies for a few days. Pick up that darn cat and give it some love. Pet it, talk to it, feed it, clean up after it, spend time with it. I would be money that you are getting a reaction from your wife.


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## Beowulf

I'd get rid of the cat then. I'd say to her that I am attempting to eliminate the problems in the marriage one by one. First the cat, then the dog, then the kids and finally her.

Said with tongue planted firmly in cheek of course.

These really sound like simple issues to deal with. Daily have you ever read "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" by Dr. John Gottman. He talks about issues just like these where minor issues become marriage threatening. It's quite a small book and you and your wife should both read it. I can think of three chapters that describe your marriage to a tee and if you read them you will realize how easy it is to fix these things and start dealing with the important stuff.


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## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> I'd get rid of the cat then. I'd say to her that I am attempting to eliminate the problems in the marriage one by one. First the cat, then the dog, then the kids and finally her.
> 
> Said with tongue planted firmly in cheek of course.
> 
> These really sound like simple issues to deal with. Daily have you ever read "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" by Dr. John Gottman. He talks about issues just like these where minor issues become marriage threatening. It's quite a small book and you and your wife should both read it. I can think of three chapters that describe your marriage to a tee and if you read them you will realize how easy it is to fix these things and start dealing with the important stuff.


I just bought it. I will start reading today. Thanks.


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## DailyGrind

Well....so I sent W an email asking if we are going to the counselor on Saturday (the session that she rescheduled four weeks ago.) Got this back:

"I don’t know, do you think we should go Saturday, or wait and see. Need a sitter. "

I sent her back....'Wait and see….what?'

Two hours later...still no response. Maybe "wait and see" what is going on with her office romance?? At least I am feeling a lot more unemotional, at this time. I think the enormity of this whole thing has finally worn off a bit (at least today.)


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## dymo

She gave the options of either Saturday or rescheduling. If you want Saturday, tell her you want Saturday.


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## Dadof3

If you go to MC - I think you need to ask the MC to have both of you lay your cards out on the table. Something has to give here.


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## FourtyPlus

Tell her "Yes, I think we should go Saturday" and then you go get a sitter!


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## DailyGrind

Well...she hasn't even answered me yet.....SHOCKING! I just can't get past the thought that there is some sort of influence at work...that has caused her coldness over the last two years. I hate like hell to pay for a counselor, if there is no shot. So...ideally, she would be SOMEWHAT interested in going. But...since I just can't get answers from her.....I'm just throwing darts in the dark.

FYI...I removed the software from her phone, last Friday. I'm no longer snooping on her anymore. It was just too emotionally draining. And...since I suspect her of having another phone, anyway....what's the point? I never really wanted to go down that road..but, at this point...I've decided to take the high road (what's left of it.) So...let the chips fall where they may. I'm trying...but if she just doesn't have it in her...not much I can do...eh?


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## DailyGrind

UPDATE:

Hi all...thought I'd post an update what has been going on. W and I DID wind up going to the counselor, on Saturday. She was resistant, for sure.

This was our first session, since the individual sessions. So, this time the counselor had some information to prod W into talking about her issues. The big things were:

1) Although she initially liked that I was a "take charge" kind of person, she feels I have completely taken over...and she feels more like an employee.

2) She feels I am rude to her sometimes.

3) Didn't appreciate when I was going out after work.

4) Porn use.

5) She feels I don't take criticism well..so she never really bothered to tell me what her issues were.

6) As a consequence of her reaction to above...she began shutting down long ago.

We discussed a few of her issues. For instance, I brought up when she was "rude" to me, just a couple days earlier. I feel it is unrealistic to feel that two people can go through life together and NOT get testy/"rude" to each other occassionaly. But it shouldn't overshadow the thousands of OTHER positive experiences.

As to taking criticism....I admitted I probably don't take it well...when I am bashed over the head with it. But, I am surprised she feels she couldn't come back to me, after a cooling off period...and talk frankly to me. I think I am very receptive to that.

As to porn....I admitted to it. I don't think it is a "problem" in my life. Her admitted lack of intimacy has created a circle of my rejected feelings...leading to me being "rude"...leading to her additionaly shutting down....and round and round. Porn was merely a release...and never intended to replace her intimacy...but rather make up for lack of any. We really didn't discuss this too in depth.

All in all...she seemed relieved to be able to discuss some of the issues, because she admitted she didn't think I "would listen."

I didn't bring up anything about her talking in her car...or her attempted EA. At this point...I think it is best to get her to start opening up to me. We need a LOT more work on communication. I'm not taking for granted that this session was even a step in any direction. The counselor asked her outright what she wanted...and she kept saying "I don't know." She still doesn't know if she wants the marriage. But, on the other hand...we seem to be getting along better. No romance, mind you. She isn't talking like the end is near. But...I still have my questions what is going on at work.

Counselor doesn't think we can tackle deep converstations, alone, yet. So...I'm playing a wait and see attitude. I don't think any of her issues are all that bad. To HER...yes...but nothing we couldn't tackle together, if she so chose. But, I don't want to overturn the apple cart at this point.


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## Dadof3

DG: Interesting. I think you need to probe her on the porn use. Porn is pretty much a deal breaker for my W in our marriage. Your W may have strong feelings about that too. My W justified her brief EA due to my struggle with porn use. She was on an exit plan for a lot of years (her behavior paralleled your W's in a lot of ways) as a result of my struggle over years with Porn, and 2 - failure to accept her EA as a justifiable friendship. 

It was only when I worked on it on my end (quit on the porn, porn addiction recovery, and worked on manning up) and the counseling she went to (regarding cognitive distortion - which I think your W has too) that our marriage actually has turned around.

And we happily celebrated 20 years of marriage last Sept 28. Probably the best anniversary we've ever had since first marrying. Until this turn around, I was actually concerned that we wouldn't make it to the 20 year anniversary without a divorce filing from her or I.


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## JustaJerk

Well... at least she showed up to counseling.


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## DailyGrind

JustaJerk said:


> Well... at least she showed up to counseling.


Yeah....but so have so many WS's....throughout this forum. So...the proof will be in what the next few sessions bring out in us, I guess.


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## Dadof3

DG: I see her coming to the counseling as a sign that she hasn't given up on the marriage yet. Who would go if they were already out of it, unless it was only to delay things long enough to get what they need out of it to leave.

Its either marriage counseling, or exit counseling as another way to look at it.


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## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> DG: Interesting. I think you need to probe her on the porn use. Porn is pretty much a deal breaker for my W in our marriage. Your W may have strong feelings about that too. My W justified her brief EA due to my struggle with porn use. She was on an exit plan for a lot of years (her behavior paralleled your W's in a lot of ways) as a result of my struggle over years with Porn, and 2 - failure to accept her EA as a justifiable friendship.
> 
> It was only when I worked on it on my end (quit on the porn, porn addiction recovery, and worked on manning up) and the counseling she went to (regarding cognitive distortion - which I think your W has too) that our marriage actually has turned around.
> 
> And we happily celebrated 20 years of marriage last Sept 28. Probably the best anniversary we've ever had since first marrying. Until this turn around, I was actually concerned that we wouldn't make it to the 20 year anniversary without a divorce filing from her or I.


The thing is...I don't need the porn. Only view it like once a week. I'd definitely be willing to cut it out. BUT..I don't think this is a chicken/egg thing here. It was the 3-6 times/year sex, that caused me to turn to it. The one time she ever mentioned porn....she indicated she didn't have a problem with it, in theory...but worried that it would lead to bizarre stuff....and felt it was something that couples should explore together. The problem was that she was only in the mood...SOOO infrequently...I viewed her comments as:
A) I'm not going to be having much sex with you...but don't dare seek another outlet;
B) I knew my "porn" was VERY tame...and wouldn't lead to more risque stuff.

Regardless....I'm willing to cut it out....but....after that (and dealing with her other complaints)....does that lead to more intimacy with her.....or just more frustration (with no outlet)? I mean...I haven't had so much as a hug, in two years....{sigh}


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## JustaJerk

> It was the 3-6 times/year sex


SNAP! How did you survive? I'd go _postal_, bro.


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## DailyGrind

JustaJerk said:


> SNAP! How did you survive? I'd go _postal_, bro.


Yeah...and she wonders why I snapped at her some times! :slap:


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## Dadof3

Quite frankly, in my not so humble opinion, I think porn use often is a result of what you describe, less than adequate intimacy, or our perception of it from our spouses.

We, as men, are visually oriented creatures. We tend to seek out that which we cannot have, therefore turn to porn (or strip bars, etc) for the intimacy we are not getting at home. 

BTW, I'm not judging you or your use of it. I emphathize whole heartedly with you regarding the intimacy issue. 

I do feel like your W has some cognitive distortions to her thinking (when you brought up her problem list that she hadn't shared with you yet). while there are just valid points on there, there is some definite perception issues with how it would apply properly to a marriage.

Some IC for those cognitive distortions might help pull her head from her rectum on a few of those issues you both face in the marriage, as well as maybe help with the intimacy thing.

You've gone through a lot! I don't envy you in your position. I only wanted to share my experience with this as it had some shared history, and wanted to have you make sure porn really isn't a big deal with her.

My W and I agreed early in our marriage along some similar grounds. All it ended up doing is boosting my high driver higher and making her feel less than adequate as she is not comfortable with her sexuality in the same sense that the media and porn industry would have you believe that a woman should be and do (I don't buy it either frankly).


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## JustaJerk

> Yeah...and she wonders why I snapped at her some times!


Too much "_baby batter_" in the brain.


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## Dadof3

JJ: You mean in the "lower" brain. I hope its not in the upper one too!


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## Chaparral

All in all this sounds very good to me. Sure, the train is going along fine and all of a sudden there is a giant train wreck.

Stay positive and work on your marriage. One persons take on something doesn't mean its right or wrong but its what they think. 
Take thinks as they are, it will be evident sooner or later if you need to bail. You seem impatient and down. workout and concentrate on the good and ignore the bad and your suspicions for now. 

I know you are worried about another phone. Can't explain that but it looks like you would have found another phone if there was one. I keep think there might have been a reason it did not show up on call logs. Maybe you should reseach that a bit.

I think it is major she went. Accept that your wife is way more complicated than you thought and just do the best you can. You can always pull the plug but now your job is tomake your family whole if you can.

Actually, I can sympathize. My wife frequently takes things I say wrong . This leads to trouble when I don't catch it immediately. If I don't catch it, by the time it comes back around I have no idea what she's talking about.

Another com problem is when I ask her a question, many times she has to try and figure out what she thinks I am really asking? It can get pretty confusing. She will answer something and I'm like, What did you think I just asked you? Your answer doesn't have anything to do with what I just asked. LOL

Good luck, cheer up and work for the best.


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## working_together

Ok, so you give up the porn, which in my opinion doesn't sound all that bad. I'll be honest, my H. looks at porn a few times a week, it doesn't bother me at all NOW, but when we were in our 20's it used to piss me off, I'd get mad and say "is that what you want? some big tit chick". lol. But I'm laid back about now, and as long as it's in moderation and not affecting our relationship who really cares. Every now and then we'll watch some together, but that's a whole other story.

Ok, back to my point, you give up the porn, you stop being "rude" to her, start giving her cat some nice hugs, pick up the cat barf, and then what?

Look, obviously it takes two to work on the marriage, what is she really doing? she's telling you "I don't know" blah blah blah.

I hope the counseling works out for you, and really address the lack of intimacy, someone posted once that it's the last thing to go in a marriage before the end is near.


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## Dadof3

working_together said:


> Ok, so you give up the porn, which in my opinion doesn't sound all that bad. I'll be honest, my H. looks at porn a few times a week, it doesn't bother me at all NOW, but when we were in our 20's it used to piss me off, I'd get mad and say "is that what you want? some big tit chick". lol. But I'm laid back about now, and as long as it's in moderation and not affecting our relationship who really cares. Every now and then we'll watch some together, but that's a whole other story.
> 
> Ok, back to my point, you give up the porn, you stop being "rude" to her, start giving her cat some nice hugs, pick up the cat barf, and then what?
> 
> Look, obviously it takes two to work on the marriage, what is she really doing? she's telling you "I don't know" blah blah blah.
> 
> *I hope the counseling works out for you, and really address the lack of intimacy, someone posted once that it's the last thing to go in a marriage before the end is near*.


Couldn't have said it better myself, especially coming from a former wayward!


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## Dadof3

I must sound like I have ADD!

Working_together completed my thought in regards to the porn. I suggested this as a process of excuse elimination - but as it turns out - isn't really the source or root cause for the lack of intimacy - or is it? Hence - why not eliminate it as a potential cause.

If she has some body issues (that the porn use flares up)- she may not realize it and it could be a cause - not the only one - but a cause nonetheless!


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## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> Ok, so you give up the porn, which in my opinion doesn't sound all that bad. I'll be honest, my H. looks at porn a few times a week, it doesn't bother me at all NOW, but when we were in our 20's it used to piss me off, I'd get mad and say "is that what you want? some big tit chick". lol. But I'm laid back about now, and as long as it's in moderation and not affecting our relationship who really cares. Every now and then we'll watch some together, but that's a whole other story.
> 
> Ok, back to my point, you give up the porn, you stop being "rude" to her, start giving her cat some nice hugs, pick up the cat barf, and then what?
> 
> Look, obviously it takes two to work on the marriage, what is she really doing? she's telling you "I don't know" blah blah blah.
> 
> I hope the counseling works out for you, and really address the lack of intimacy, someone posted once that it's the last thing to go in a marriage before the end is near.


Yeah...I actually did clean up some cat barf, this weekend. After she left it there for the entire day (right at the bottom of our main stairs.) As for intimacy..it seems it was the FIRST thing to go. You may recall...we never even had sex on our two week honeymoon...to St. Lucia. I must have been "rude" to her, sometime in the prior three months (she REALLY does seem to hold on to things for a long time.)

I am starting IC in two weeks. Ultimately, I think she needs to as well. I'm hoping the MC can identify some things that might lead to that.

As to the porn....funny thing that. I never was into the "super model" type thing. I much prefered normal amateur stuff. When she first brought it up, I told her that (thinking it would allay her fears that I was holding her up to super body standards.) Instead...she said "that's worse!!" Seems it was more like I was looking for someone to replace her, if it wasn't some sort of impossible, fantasy woman. {sigh...can't win, for losing.}


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## Dadof3

> As for intimacy..it seems it was the FIRST thing to go. You may recall...we never even had sex on our two week honeymoon...to St. Lucia. I must have been "rude" to her, sometime in the prior three months (she REALLY does seem to hold on to things for a long time.)


Big red flag to even stay in the marriage - no honeymoon sex. I don't ever remember reading this part. To me, it would have been an annulled marriage if this happened this short into the marriage (shows a personality disorder).

It might be a bit late for me to say that this is a REALLY BAD WAY to start a marriage!


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## JustaJerk

THE CAT! THE CAT! Who's watching the cat?!

It's funny how people keep reverting to the cat incident.


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## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> Big red flag to even stay in the marriage - no honeymoon sex. I don't ever remember reading this part. To me, it would have been an annulled marriage if this happened this short into the marriage (shows a personality disorder).


Yeah...well...we were up all night before our flight..didn't get there until early evening. She "never recovered" until the last night...when she got too drunk. THEN...we left St. Lucia for a week long Windjammer cruise around the S. Virgin Islands. Of course....she was always too sea sick. Just my luck. First couple years of our marriage...I used to joke with her that the engagement ring must have been made of cryptonite....cause it sapped all her sex powers out of her. I never realized, then...how really serious it was.


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## Dadof3

I think your W needs some serious sex therapy on top of MC / IC. I hope she wasn't sexually abused when younger. This, my friend, maybe at the heart of all of your marital issues that are on her side. You still have your own, keep in mind.


----------



## working_together

JustaJerk said:


> THE CAT! THE CAT! Who's watching the cat?!
> 
> It's funny how people keep reverting to the cat incident.


That's because I have 4 cats....I love those critters to death. Problem is my new guinea pigs don't love them one bit, we heard a big crash in the middle of the night last week, the cats knocked the cage down from a very high cabnet.....luckily they survived. lol

I'm pretty sure I'll be the crazy old lady down the street with all these homeless cats.....lol


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> I think your W needs some serious sex therapy on top of MC / IC. I hope she wasn't sexually abused when younger. This, my friend, maybe at the heart of all of your marital issues that are on her side. You still have your own, keep in mind.


I've asked her....she swears none. And THAT would really piss me off, if that was a lie....seeing as how she knows about my own abuse from MY childhood.


----------



## Dadof3

> *First couple years of our marriage...I used to joke with her that the engagement ring must have been made of cryptonite....cause it sapped all her sex powers out of her. * I never realized, then...how really serious it was.


And - someone with some body / sex issues will certainly hold a grudge when it was joked about. 

WOW! And you had no idea. I feel bad for both of you. Not your fault as you didn't know.

I'll bet you she is ashamed / not proud of the honeymoon as she may compare herself to other women or society's expectations of what couples do on honeymoons. 

That right there maybe a BIG find - couple that with the Porn / Strip Club stuff and you are not going to have intimacy for the rest of your life, while married, unless she gets help.


----------



## Chaparral

Another thread currently running here said that exact thing. Wife denied abuse for 20 yrs or so. Let it out in MC.


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## working_together

Dadof3 said:


> I think your W needs some serious sex therapy on top of MC / IC. I hope she wasn't sexually abused when younger. This, my friend, maybe at the heart of all of your marital issues that are on her side. You still have your own, keep in mind.


Yeah, I'm wondering if sex therapy would be a better idea. I'm thinking that sounded like an awesome honeymoon, just the two of you, would have been the perfect opprotunity to you know.....


----------



## Dadof3

DailyGrind said:


> I've asked her....she swears none. And THAT would really piss me off, if that was a lie....seeing as how she knows about my own abuse from MY childhood.


I think its possible that some people would never know (especially if they were abused when too young to remember). I also think the body dismorphia can result from growing up in a household where mom & dad show little or no physical and/or emotional intimacy to each other with the kids around.

My W grew up in a home like that. Loves her parents, but she never grew up with examples of physical and/or emotional intimacy, so this has distorted her belief structure and resulted in cognitive distortions.


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> I think its possible that some people would never know (especially if they were abused when too young to remember). I also think the body dismorphia can result from growing up in a household where mom & dad show little or no physical and/or emotional intimacy to each other with the kids around.
> 
> My W grew up in a home like that. Loves her parents, but she never grew up with examples of physical and/or emotional intimacy, so this has distorted her belief structure and resulted in cognitive distortions.


BINGO!! That is exactly her childhood. My family was all about hugs, kisses, affection, and "I Love You"s. Her family ...the exact opposite. I simply don't recall...but my mom insists I told her that W's mom once told her she's not sure WHY she had her. I don't think that was the normal interaction...but definitely not loving.


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## working_together

How was it before you got married? the intimacy etc.


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## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> Yeah, I'm wondering if sex therapy would be a better idea. I'm thinking that sounded like an awesome honeymoon, just the two of you, would have been the perfect opprotunity to you know.....


Yeah...and then follow that with two years on my 27' sailboat. We spent EVERY weekend, sailing around the Chesapeake. We'd setout Friday evening, and wouldn't be back until Sunday evening. Grilling off the stern rail, swimming from the boat, Pina Coladas on the bow deck, watching the sun set.....tv/vcr below decks. It KILLED me...but I don't believe we had sex more than ONCE, those entire two years. She had to be "clean" for that....and a swim in the bay didn't count. Drove me nuts.....I couldn't figure out how ANY woman wouldn't find that romantic as hell! First MC session...she comes out with how she hated the boat....cause some times I was "rude" to her. Well...yeah....I'm on deck during a strong wind...and you turn the boat across the wind point.....boom almost throws me overboard. It is just an eensy bit possible I might have raised my voice.  But, again...the exception.....and should have been overshadowed by the thousands of positives (like sailing into St. Michaels...getting a slip, with a pool...and spending two nights exploring the town, and drinking ****tails at the bar.)


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## Dadof3

DG: Do you have your own counselor?

I think you need to bring these up at the next MC session. Is your W open to talking about what we've covered today? She definitely doesn't want to feel this way, but she'll also be embarrassed to find it being discussed even in an anonymous forum on the internet.

If she's open to suggestions, definitely recommend an individual counselor who specializes in intimacy / sexual issues, cognitive dissonance who can help her through these. 

tell her there is nothing to be ashamed of, and you will support her fully through her recovery. also know that sometimes, results from therapy can cause her to reject the marriage and move on.


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> How was it before you got married? the intimacy etc.


Before the ring...it was FANTASTIC. She was by far the most loving, intimate woman I'd ever been with.


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## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> BINGO!! That is exactly her childhood. My family was all about hugs, kisses, affection, and "I Love You"s. Her family ...the exact opposite. I simply don't recall...but my mom insists I told her that W's mom once told her she's not sure WHY she had her. I don't think that was the normal interaction...but definitely not loving.


I don't necessarily agree with the way a person grows up, the lack of I love u's, lack of hugs etc. I grew up in a very cold British atmosphere (no offense the the Britts here). My parents were never loving toward each other (actually divorced when I was 9), grandparents never showed any love for each other, I don't even think they talked to each other much lol.

Point is, that you can't blame it on just that, yes, it factors in, but if she can be aware of it, then she can work on it ya know? for me, I became more affectionate and loving when I had my two younger kids, and this kind of helped me show more love etc. towards my H.


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> Before the ring...it was FANTASTIC. She was by far the most loving, intimate woman I'd ever been with.


You see, it has nothing to do with her upbringing, it has to do with resentment.


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> also know that sometimes, results from therapy can cause her to reject the marriage and move on.


Gee...you are just FULL of happy thoughts today...aren't you? 

Yes...I start IC in two weeks. We broached the intimacy topic on Saturday. I won't bring up her in IC until she opens up more. Right now...in her eyes...I AM the problem. Until she can be shown how her actions helped get us where we are, I won't try to shift. I'll deal with my issues...it can only make me a better person. But, clearly....if there is a long-term for us...these issues need to be addressed.

Thanks!


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> You see, it has nothing to do with her upbringing, it has to do with resentment.


Yeah....I agree.


----------



## Dadof3

Well - your situation makes sense to me now. 

This has been troubled from the start. 

Based on her past, sounds like she doesn't know any better. She's staying in the marriage cause it was the way she grew up. She's unhappy, but hey - there are kids. If she had her way, she would move to a Catholic convent and be happy to spend it there for the rest of her life. (there might be some truth to this, believe it or not - not sure of your religious persuasion), but my W essentially said the same to me twice (with exception of Catholic convent) - that if I wasn't ok with her lack of intimacy (physical / emotional) - we could divorce and she wouldn't remarry. She would spend the rest of her life alone abstaining from sex and relationships.


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> Well - your situation makes sense to me now.
> 
> This has been troubled from the start.
> 
> Based on her past, sounds like she doesn't know any better. She's staying in the marriage cause it was the way she grew up. She's unhappy, but hey - there are kids. If she had her way, she would move to a Catholic convent and be happy to spend it there for the rest of her life. (there might be some truth to this, believe it or not - not sure of your religious persuasion), but my W essentially said the same to me twice (with exception of Catholic convent) - that if I wasn't ok with her lack of intimacy (physical / emotional) - we could divorce and she wouldn't remarry. She would spend the rest of her life alone abstaining from sex and relationships.


yeah...well...a couple months into this two-year cold spell.....all her "toys" disappeared. I asked her about them, and she said she threw them away. So...you just might be right, to some extent.


----------



## Dadof3

working_together said:


> You see, it has nothing to do with her upbringing, it has to do with resentment.


I more or less agree - I think it also depends on the perception in childhood (those things that create cognitive distortions) - the belief that things "should" always or "shouldn't" always be due to her experiences in her own family. 

Every thing outside of this is "wrong". Its very BLACK and WHITE thinking.


----------



## Dadof3

DailyGrind said:


> Gee...you are just FULL of happy thoughts today...aren't you?
> 
> Yes...I start IC in two weeks. We broached the intimacy topic on Saturday. I won't bring up her in IC until she opens up more. Right now...in her eyes...I AM the problem. Until she can be shown how her actions helped get us where we are, I won't try to shift. I'll deal with my issues...it can only make me a better person. But, clearly....if there is a long-term for us...these issues need to be addressed.
> 
> Thanks!


Trying to NOT be negative, but I'm also a REALIST where I think cards need to be on the table. This was something my W was told by her therapist and she worried that it would make her not want to be married anymore.

I told my W, that whatever the outcome of therapy was, I would be ok with it as the my only true motivation was to see her change as a person for the better. With or without me. Preferably with, however.

The therapist had my W read a book about a "prince charming" fairytale. Funny thing is my W never made it more than 25% into the book, and ended up quitting therapy cause she was scared to learn more.

What she did learn has helped our marriage immensly. There are still days that are like WTF, but they are getting fewer and far between.


----------



## JustaJerk

> I'm pretty sure I'll be the crazy old lady down the street with all these homeless cats.....lol


My sister calls them "Cat Mothers."


----------



## DailyGrind

Just found this piece of paper in W's lunchbag....anyone know what it might mean?:

@messaging.sprintpcs.com

On back were these numbers:
0060439575
20-0492123

Is this some form of hidden communication?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

1st number - Account Number
2nd number - Bank Routing Number

If you can ask a banker about what bank that the Bank Routing Number is, you could make a voluntary deposit using a bank issued generic deposit slip with the account number written on it. Put a some money in there (your choice) and get a deposit receipt with your deposit amount and the balance in the account without being questioned as to your ownership. If you are asked, just say you are the husband making a deposit for your W.

I say this as my W and I used to have a candle business where we'd drop money (for our inventory purchase) into the business's checking account and get a receipt.

Check with your banker as to what bank/CU the RTN belongs to. Ask what rights you might have to a spouses account so you know what your ability to inquire on that account, once you find it.

Two things:

1 - I hope I'm wrong
2 - If I'm not - I hope she's not watching the balance closely.

Whats the possibility she's stashing money for an exit / divorce?

I also wonder about the front part of the receipt - you put @messaging.sprintpcs.com

Did you leave out the user name? Do you recognize that email address? If you don't - its an email message service that is associated with a phone. Most of the time it is the phone number of the phone that is being used. Could this be the secret phone or her usual phone number? You wouldn't see these messages on your phone bill.


----------



## DailyGrind

I wouldn't know where she is getting the money. I googled the routing number....no match. What about the sprint messaging thing? Also found a $100 AMEX gift certificate with "Love Tina" on the envelope. WTF? There is a Tina at her work. ?? Seems like a lot for a friendly Christmas present.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

IT may not be a Bank Routing Number (I just look it up) and it comes up invalid (unless credit unions have different numbering scheme than banks).

Second idea would be TIN (Taxpayer ID number). Does she work Payroll as part of her HR duties?


----------



## Dadof3

Tina maybe a red herring. 

Regarding sprint messaging. without the 10 digit number preceding the rest of the email address it would be hard to tell. The first number has 10 digits - could be a phone number - but likely from Europe or Philippines. (can't remember which - I used to work for multi-national corp). 

Is there a foreign division for her company? Are there any acquisitions on the horizon?

An anonymous call to the company operator could find out real quick if a "Tina" works there. Then wrong number it.


----------



## DailyGrind

No foreign operations. She has a Tina contact in her phone with her company email address. Definite she works there. Doesn't $100 seem like a lot
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

DG: Wait - that might be a Bank Routing Number - its in what is called fractional form. PP-YYYY/XXXX

When you lookup a ABA Bank Routing Number, your are supposed to use this format - XXXXYYYYC (C is the MICR check digit)

So reformatting that number for lookup becomes - 01230492C - compute the check digit using this formula: 3(d1 + d4 + d7) + 7(d2+d5+d8)+(d3+d6+d9) mod 10 = 0

Solve for d9. Each d represents the Bank Routing Number position in the number.

Or it might be faster to try to search off the first 8, or make 10 attempts using check digits 0 - 9 to see which one catches first.

Glad I wiki'd this and read it first before signing off. Dumb me. I thought I knew EVERYTHING about banking.


----------



## Dadof3

Heres the link, in case I'm confusing: Routing transit number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## lordmayhem

The name "Tina" may be the OM. Its not uncommon for the WS to assign a same sex name for the OP. My own fWW had her OM under her female cousins name.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

lordmayhem said:


> The name "Tina" may be the OM. Its not uncommon for the WS to assign a same sex name for the OP. My own fWW had her OM under her female cousins name.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think so. I saw the Gift Certificate with "love Tina" on the envelope. Who gives a coworker a $100 AMEX gift certificate?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

DailyGrind said:


> I don't think so. I saw the Gift Certificate with "love Tina" on the envelope. Who gives a coworker a $100 AMEX gift certificate?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or the AMEX gift certificate is from an OM using Tina's name to throw off any suspicion. I don't know any coworkers who give other coworkers a $100 gift certificate. Ten or twenty five maybe, not a hundred.


----------



## dymo

Lesbian?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

dymo said:


> Lesbian?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's a possibility too. $100 worth indicates a relationship.


----------



## Beowulf

dymo said:


> Lesbian?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly my thoughts as well. Daily, when you confronted her about an affair did you specifically ask if there was another MAN? Maybe when she said no she was being truthful.


----------



## working_together

Wow, could this be what it's all about...another woman, this would explain soooo much.

I wonder how you could bring this subject up in order that she does not get defensive.


----------



## Beowulf

A friend of mine lost his wife to another woman. She left him with all the kids, the house, car, everything and moved to North Carolina to be with her. Her kids refused to speak to her, her family disowned her. She lost everything. Their relationship lasted for two years before she found her new partner was cheating on her with another woman. She came crying back to my friend but he just laughed in her face and shut the door.


----------



## Almostrecovered

the second is the same format I see for our corporation's EIN (same as a social security number but for companies)


----------



## Dadof3

DG: Did you look up the Bank Routing Number in MICR format


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> Exactly my thoughts as well. Daily, when you confronted her about an affair did you specifically ask if there was another MAN? Maybe when she said no she was being truthful.


Well...when I confronted her about the conversation in the car.....one of the things she said was "even if there was another phone...what makes you think I was talking to a man?"

I thought $100 seemed kind of high. It would certainly make some sense. But, it also seems kind of impersonal...if it is something more than a friend. Problem is...I found it in her purse. If I confront her....it is back to "I bet you look through all my things, don't you?!!"

Anyone have any input on the @messaging.sprintpcs.com note? I'm wondering if she's texting someone through her computer at work?

Dad3 - I don't think it is a routing number. It sure does look like an EIN....but I tried doing a lookup on it, and came back blank. She does do HR...so it could simply be related to work.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> I wouldn't know where she is getting the money. I googled the routing number....no match. What about the sprint messaging thing? Also found a $100 AMEX gift certificate with "Love Tina" on the envelope. WTF? There is a Tina at her work. ?? Seems like a lot for a friendly Christmas present.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like a lot and why would a co worker say "Love"?

However, a gift card for a lover? That doesn't sound right either unless it was to pay for a prepaid phone.


----------



## working_together

I wouldn't confront her with the fact that you were snooping in her purse, that would piss me off. And you know from the VAR thing that she will get angry with you, and that'll start a whole new arguement. You have to take another approach, not sure what at this point tho.


----------



## working_together

chapparal said:


> Sounds like a lot and why would a co worker say "Love"?
> 
> However, a gift card for a lover? That doesn't sound right either unless it was to pay for a prepaid phone.


Some of my friends give me gifts for x-mas etc. (female of course), they always write mushy stuff in the card, and sign it with Love. But it's never over $25, so yeah, $100 is a bit much, but if the person is wealthy, then it makes sense.


----------



## working_together

I had a female co-worker who shared an office with me for 3 years, she also signed cards with "Love". Depends how long she has known the co-worker.


----------



## DailyGrind

My W runs the HR for two of the companies that the owner has, in our area. He has a number of companies....some in Chicago, and a couple here. I'm not sure...but I think this "Tina" may be the office manager of the second company here (W mostly works for the main company.) She probably does make a lot of money...if that is the person. I know my W would be dealing with her quite a bit. But I'm just not sure this is the same person.

Man...could this story GET any weirder?


----------



## warlock07

Do you have sprint phone with unlimited data plan and 4G?


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Do you have sprint phone with unlimited data plan and 4G?


Nope. Verizon...with unlimited data plan.


----------



## Shaggy

Could the gift card be to pay for a second phone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

DailyGrind said:


> Anyone have any input on the @messaging.sprintpcs.com note? I'm wondering if she's texting someone through her computer at work?


(insert cell number)@messaging.sprintpcs.com would be a way to send a text to a phone by email


----------



## kenmoore14217

take 0060439575 and write it 575.934.0600 it looks like a phone number in New Mexico !! Other than that no clue


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Thought you were done snooping and spying??? Why are you doing this to yourself?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know. She's been a little nicer to me, since our counseling on Saturday. It is scary the piss out of me. My heart and emotions are so all over the place. In a way....some of these stories in this forum (where the WS's are ripping hearts out) almost seem better. At least they KNOW what they are dealing with. I can't move forward, can't move back...left...right....up...down....this is KILLING ME!


----------



## Dadof3

Ever heard of clonazepam? recommend you get to a Doc - tell them about your marital stress and anxiety. They may put you on an antidepressant (get a good one) and maybe some clonazepam / lorezepam for the time between now and when the anti-depressant kicks in with full force.

It helped me a lot when I started dealing with my W's EA and walk-away planning half a year ago. It probably made all the difference in the world. I didn't freak out when I was on it. Just made me a "happy" little drunk. 

I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs. If thats what "drunk" feels like, very interesting!


----------



## Initfortheduration

That's because you are being reactive with her. You are worried about what she is going to do. You need to be concerned about what you're going to do. When that becomes your priority (happiness, self respect, confidence), your confusion will clear.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> You need to quit doing this to yourself. Why continue to spy and be paranoid about everything?
> 
> You either need to trust her and hope things work out or just let her go. Spying is only hurting you and driving you CRAZY.
> 
> It has been over a year and you still have not found any concrete evidence, so why are you doing this to yourself?


Well..not exactly true. I found her emails to another guy...which I think I stopped. I found her talking to someone on her trips home.....someone at work. She is suddenly (after working there for 3 years) leaving about an hour later (a couple times a bit more) from work. Tonight...she said she needed to work a bit later to "clean up her office." Really??? Who works over, just to clean up their office?? That's kinda what triggered it for me.

But...you are right....the spying is what's driving me crazy. OTOH...the spying is what caught the EA beginning with the guy from DD's dance class.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> I work over to clean my office because I get so busy during the day, I need to get organized.
> 
> Maybe it is time to just call it quits. Why spend your life worrying about her having an EA or PA? Your wasting your life away. 2 years is to long to be living like that.


Fair point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

You said she was going to work early and leaving late a while back. Is this a regular thing now? How often? Does she still workout with the other man?


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> You said she was going to work early and leaving late a while back. Is this a regular thing now? How often? Does she still workout with the other man?


I pretty much took care of the kids through the Holidays (I took a lot of time off.). She was working over quite a bit during then. But it was pretty much not the case for her to do so before. Oddly, she has not worked out AT ALL over the past three weeks. Not sure why she stopped.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> I pretty much took care of the kids through the Holidays (I took a lot of time off.). She was working over quite a bit during then. But it was pretty much not the case for her to do so before. Oddly, she has not worked out AT ALL over the past three weeks. Not sure why she stopped.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very interesting, puzzle keeps going off on different tangents.


----------



## FourtyPlus

chapparal said:


> Sounds like a lot and why would a co worker say "Love"?
> 
> However, a gift card for a lover? That doesn't sound right either unless it was to pay for a prepaid phone.


I'm not a Lesbian but I have co-workers to whom I'd give $100 because I know they are going through a rough time. I've done it before. Probably wouldn't sign it with "love" but then I'm not "that" close to my coworkers either.


----------



## Chaparral

You never did gps her car or phone right?


----------



## Dadof3

Chap - I think DG GPS'd her phone, but she knows about it, so its ineffective.


----------



## Halien

DailyGrind said:


> Just found this piece of paper in W's lunchbag....anyone know what it might mean?:
> 
> @messaging.sprintpcs.com
> 
> On back were these numbers:
> 0060439575
> 20-0492123
> 
> Is this some form of hidden communication?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First pass, it just looks like accounting distributions to me. Depends on the size of the company she works for. The first line often means high level division codes, and the second, with the 20, then dash, just looks like a specific buisiness section, then the account. In my company, it would mean that section number 20, in some division, just allocated some overtime, for example, and they need her to make a manual transaction. You said that she works in HR, so I would think that she is dealing with these regularly.


----------



## Trojan John

This isn't a marriage, it's a sitcom. It really seems as if you're addicted to the drama. So am I as I keep reading it...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JustaJerk

Whoa! She might be a lesbian now?!


----------



## DailyGrind

Dadof3 said:


> Chap - I think DG GPS'd her phone, but she knows about it, so its ineffective.


I don't know if she knew about it. But it wasn't really helping anything....so I removed it. It always showed her at work.....which didn't help me if WORK is where something is going on. We started counseling....so I didn't want to be dishonest that I was still spying on her....if it came up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> I don't know if she knew about it. But it wasn't really helping anything....so I removed it. It always showed her at work.....which didn't help me if WORK is where something is going on. We started counseling....so I didn't want to be dishonest that I was still spying on her....if it came up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good idea.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> DG: I told you awhile ago what you needed to do to try to get her to fall back in love with you. But, you and some of the other followers of this thread thought I was crazy.


Iwant....I beg to differ. You told me a couple times how you were against the spying. And I did take your advice. Okay...I relapsed a bit last night. But...I've gone back through all your posts. I don't see you really giving me much, by way of advice, on what I SHOULD do....to get her to fall back in love with me. 

I welcome your advice (and all others that I've been getting, as well). But....I don't see this type of advice (nor anyone calling you crazy...least of all me.)

Thanks all.


----------



## memyselfandi

I think the two of you should seek an infidelity specialist..one who deals with issues like that and one who can open her up to why she's doing what she's doing.

In my opinion, although it sounds harsh, I would ask her to start looking for a place of her own until the two of you can work through this without the other guy in the picture.

There is no reason that you should have to sleep on the couch. You pay the bills there and there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to sleep in your own bed.

She's obviously made it clear that she still has intentions of keeping contact with the other guy..and why you put up with it...I know I wouldn't.

Give it some time with several visits to the counselor and see how it goes. If it doesn't get better...seek legal separation for a bit and see how it goes from there. There is just no reason for you to be a good husband/good father/ good family supporter while she walks all over you!!

If she wants this other guy so bad..let her go...you will find better!!


----------



## JustaJerk

The thing is that his wife is non-responsive to anything Daily does. There is no clarity in terms of what she really wants. Daily is constantly playing a guessing game with her. Why doesn't she just come out and tell him what she truely wants, instead of just p*ssyfooting around and being ambiguous all the time


----------



## DailyGrind

justajerk said:


> the thing is that his wife is non-responsive to anything daily does. There is no clarity in terms of what she realy wants. Daily is consatantly playing a guessing game with her. Why doesn't she just come out and tell him what she truely wants, instead of just p*ssyfooting around and being ambiguous all the time


exactly!


----------



## lordmayhem

Iwant2bhappy said:


> I deleted my posts because there were so many "Haters" on here. LOL However, some of them were really mean towards me. I posted on your thread and another one and WOW, they were brutal.
> 
> I got thick skin and decided to come back.


I think I remember your thread, you were in an EA, correct?


----------



## lordmayhem

Iwant2bhappy said:


> No, never.
> 
> However, you were the meanest to me.


I'm direct, there's a difference. That's due to my background and my job.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> I deleted my posts because there were so many "Haters" on here. LOL However, some of them were really mean towards me. I posted on your thread and another one and WOW, they were brutal.
> 
> I got thick skin and decided to come back.
> 
> To make a long story short...I explained I have been married almost 20 years. Married young at age 19 because of an unexpected pregnancy. Resented my husband most of the 19 years, don't think I was ever really "In Love" but "Loved" him. Oh HATED sex with a passion too.
> 
> I thought about cheating but never would have. But, still thought about it.
> 
> One day I woke up and said I am either going to make this work or I'm gone. Told him the same thing. He became so much more loving, complimented me more, made me feel loved, etc. Everything changed.
> 
> My point is...when you talked about seeing your wife naked one day by accident(you loved it), you thought she looked beautiful standing in the kitchen...you should have told her she looked beautiful.  You should try to kiss her. I know you were sleeping back in your bed with her...make a move. Don't be scared if she rejects you either. Just do it. If she does reject you, who cares you know where this relationship is going anyway.
> 
> You are angry at her, you need to let that go. I think you need to show her how much you love and want her. THIS LAST SENTENCE IS WHAT MADE EVERYBODY SO MAD AT ME.  But, I honestly think this will make a world of difference with her.
> 
> JUST TRY IT and don't be scared. Quit spying, you haven't proved anything yet, so why go through all that worrying and stress?
> 
> I was just like your wife at one time. It can change.


Ahhh....I remember that post now. Thanks. I don't disagree...but.....I think I have to start my own IC before I can do that. To be honest/fair....she had been shutting down for years, before the freeze set in, two years ago. I've responded by pulling back, myself (probably why I would procrastinate going home so much.) My rejection issues are exactly what keep me from making any moves. It's one thing to feel rejected. It's quite another to actually be TOLD you are rejected.  I have been thinking alot about initiating "date nights" with her. But..I think I'd like to get the next MC session under our belt first. I think I need more clarity that she isn't giving her heart to someone else...before I expose mine.

That all said...i don't disagree with your comments....just maybe the timing. Thanks for taking the time to repost!


----------



## Chaparral

Besises MC have the two of you had any books recommended to you and have you read and discussed them? Its been awhile and I'm to lazy to go back through the whole thread. Sorry.


----------



## JustaJerk

@Iwant

You make some good points(concerning Daily taking the initiative), but in your case you came straigh-out to your husband and told him what you needed. In Daily's case... I don't know where his wife is at right now, or where her head is, for that matter. KWIM.

Another thing. You shouldn't edit your posts. If people get on your ass for something you say- [email protected]#$ 'EM. Don't compromise your position because they lay into you. Post at will... post what you feel. Not everyone is gonna agree with you.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Besises MC have the two of you had any books recommended to you and have you read and discussed them? Its been awhile and I'm to lazy to go back through the whole thread. Sorry.


Over the past year+I've read (or are reading):
No More Mr. Nice Guy
Getting the Love You Want
Lover Busters
His Needs, Her Needs
Hold on to you NUT's
The Married Man Sex Life Primer
The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work

None of this was WITH her....and as far as I know....she's not been doing/reading ANYTHING for the benefit of the relationship.


----------



## working_together

I`m really mixed on the `"just going up to her and kissing her", I think you`ve been rejected so many times, and actually told so in so many words that she`s not happy with you. You`re self-esteem is probably really suffering at this point, and it takes lots of courage to make such a leap. It`s like you know what she`s going to do, same old.

You could start slowly though, maybe a touch on the shoulder when walking bye, very causal subtle gestures, then you can up it a bit in combination with how the MC is going, (only if positive). Slow process.


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> I`m really mixed on the `"just going up to her and kissing her", I think you`ve been rejected so many times, and actually told so in so many words that she`s not happy with you. You`re self-esteem is probably really suffering at this point, and it takes lots of courage to make such a leap. It`s like you know what she`s going to do, same old.
> 
> You could start slowly though, maybe a touch on the shoulder when walking bye, very causal subtle gestures, then you can up it a bit in combination with how the MC is going, (only if positive). Slow process.


Self esteem? Ha....I USED to have one of those.


----------



## JustaJerk

Hey Daily- Is divorce a reality for you at this point?


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> ...few years back he was not coming home until late at night either.


I'd like to clear this up. I was doing that ONLY during quarterly closes.....over the two week period....like 2-3x those weeks. Monthly closes was one per month.

It wasn't like it was every night. I was doing that because I was working until at least 9:00 pm.....she and kids were in bed....and frankly...it sucked going home to quiet house. Now...I KNOW....a great husband would have gone straight home, anyway. But ...how many great husbands also play golf all Saturday, have guys nights out, etc. I NEVER did those things. So...all told...my horrible time in 2007....I came home around midnight ...maybe 20-25 times..the whole year. Again...not trying to justify...but ....I dont' think it was enough to divorce over either.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Over the past year+I've read (or are reading):
> No More Mr. Nice Guy
> Getting the Love You Want
> Lover Busters
> His Needs, Her Needs
> Hold on to you NUT's
> The Married Man Sex Life Primer
> The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work
> 
> None of this was WITH her....and as far as I know....she's not been doing/reading ANYTHING for the benefit of the relationship.


Some of these have to be read by BOTH of you. At least one of these she is not supposed to know you are reading I believe.
Try getting "Five Love Languages" and have her fill out the short love language test. Once you do that try to get her to read His Need Her Needs.


----------



## DailyGrind

JustaJerk said:


> Hey Daily- Is divorce a reality for you at this point?


It's a hard concept for me to accept. IF she is unwilling to make changes, accept my changes...or IF she is involved with someone else......I would definitely get on board with that. But the not really knowing keeps me from making any drastic decisions.


----------



## lordmayhem

DailyGrind said:


> I'd like to clear this up. I was doing that ONLY during quarterly closes.....over the two week period....like 2-3x those weeks. Monthly closes was one per month.
> 
> It wasn't like it was every night. I was doing that because I was working until at least 9:00 pm.....she and kids were in bed....and frankly...it sucked going home to quiet house. Now...I KNOW....a great husband would have gone straight home, anyway. But ...how many great husbands also play golf all Saturday, have guys nights out, etc. I NEVER did those things. So...all told...my horrible time in 2007....I came home around midnight ...maybe 20-25 times..the whole year. Again...not trying to justify...but ....I dont' think it was enough to divorce over either.


Were you the perfect husband? Of course not. That doesn't excuse her behavior by far. Don't let anyone justify her actions. She's pretty good at being underground. There's *no valid reason for a secret cell phone* that you don't know about.


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> I'd like to clear this up. I was doing that ONLY during quarterly closes.....over the two week period....like 2-3x those weeks. Monthly closes was one per month.
> 
> It wasn't like it was every night. I was doing that because I was working until at least 9:00 pm.....she and kids were in bed....and frankly...it sucked going home to quiet house. Now...I KNOW....a great husband would have gone straight home, anyway. But ...how many great husbands also play golf all Saturday, have guys nights out, etc. I NEVER did those things. So...all told...my horrible time in 2007....I came home around midnight ...maybe 20-25 times..the whole year. Again...not trying to justify...but ....I dont' think it was enough to divorce over either.


The problem started on your honeymoon, so whether you came home late quite a bit during one year is mute at this point. This withdrawl, non-responsive, rejecting behavior has been going on for soo long. It`s going to be a long while to get things on tract....if ever. I`m still rooting for you though.


----------



## lordmayhem

Iwant2bhappy said:


> But, did you see her spying on you? No, she just bottled it up all inside and started to resent you and never got over it.
> 
> Just like you resent her...for your thoughts of her having an affair.
> 
> One of you needs to give in and try with the other. And, I think it should be you.


It should be the person with the secret cell phone.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> I'd like to clear this up. I was doing that ONLY during quarterly closes.....over the two week period....like 2-3x those weeks. Monthly closes was one per month.
> 
> It wasn't like it was every night. I was doing that because I was working until at least 9:00 pm.....she and kids were in bed....and frankly...it sucked going home to quiet house. Now...I KNOW....a great husband would have gone straight home, anyway. But ...how many great husbands also play golf all Saturday, have guys nights out, etc. I NEVER did those things. So...all told...my horrible time in 2007....I came home around midnight ...maybe 20-25 times..the whole year. Again...not trying to justify...but ....I dont' think it was enough to divorce over either.


Its probably the combination of many things, not just this one or another. 

Both of your self esteems (?) are in the tank. Neither of you have been able to get it back on track. Now though she may just be loosening up. When you see a crack ease into it gently and see if you can get some mild convos going. Just lay off the serious stuff since she cannot handle the pressure.


----------



## working_together

I wanted to add, that at this point, I would give up on the searching, spying etc. Who knows if she`s having affair, who knows if it`s with a man or woman. If it`s happening, she`s darn good. Let it go at least for a bit and get your sanity back. Do it for your health.

This thread makes me so sad and frustrated at the same time, I feel like just shaking your wife and telling her WTF, talk.


----------



## Chaparral

lordmayhem said:


> It should be the person with the secret cell phone.


I'm still not convinced there is a secret cell phone but I have been wrong before. Of course, she might just be out smarting him. Looks like by now he would have found some physical evidence in the dirty clothes, car or somewhere.

Are you two still sleeping different shifts?


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I'm still not convinced there is a secret cell phone but I have been wrong before. Of course, she might just be out smarting him. Looks like by now he would have found some physical evidence in the dirty clothes, car or somewhere.
> 
> Are you two still sleeping different shifts?


I'm suffering from sinus problems this week...so I'm back on the sofa. As soon as I'm not snoring like a Mack Truck....I'll go back to the bed. But yes...different "shifts." She goes to bed around 9:00. I'm still doing work until around 11:00...then unwind til 12:00. Though...sometimes I fall asleep at my desk, and wake up in the middle of the night, to go to bed.


----------



## Chaparral

Iwant2bhappy said:


> That is a problem...which I'm sure you already know. But, you have to change that. You will not be able to salvage this marriage without intimacy.
> 
> One night, go to bed with her a 9 and try to cuddle with her. It is hard, I know. But, you have too.
> 
> When is your next MC?


Yes I've thought the sleeping arrangements have been one of the things that has cemented the status quo. Sleeping like roomates instead of lovers. 

What can you work on at night that you could not get up early and do. Once in awhile is fine but every night is beyond the pale.

You could probably find you could work her into staying up a litttle later over time. 

If she is sleeping a lot though, that could be a sign of depression.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Yes I've thought the sleeping arrangements have been one of the things that has cemented the status quo. Sleeping like roomates instead of lovers.
> 
> What can you work on at night that you could not get up early and do. Once in awhile is fine but every night is beyond the pale.
> 
> You could probably find you could work her into staying up a litttle later over time.
> 
> If she is sleeping a lot though, that could be a sign of depression.


Guys...my promotion this year made me a controller for an international firm...with offices in China, UK, and the Middle East. I am frequently on conference calls with these parts of the world, in the evening. Also....I spend so much time putting out fires during the day....I need time in the evening to do substantive work. This year was incredibly difficult because it took me four months to find my replacement....meaning I did BOTH jobs. Even after I found my replacement....I'm STILL trying to get him up to speed. So...this year...I've been unbelievably busy. But the light of day is coming.

That being said......for years I tried to compromise with her. Just stay up until 10:00 - 11:00...we can both go to bed. She wouldn't. Understand....that through 2008...she was a SAHM. So...I just couldn't understand it. Maybe something we can work on during MC.


----------



## lordmayhem

Iwant2bhappy said:


> He can't prove that though.


Conversations caught on VAR that don't show up on the cell phone bill equals what exactly? That in addition to the red flags. I look at the totality of the case, as my instructors taught me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

I'm calling you Detective Meanie from now on (since a poster recently claimed you were "mean to her")


----------



## Chaparral

lordmayhem said:


> Conversations caught on VAR that don't show up on the cell phone bill equals what exactly? That in addition to the red flags. I look at the totality of the case, as my instructors taught me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He searched and searched for another phone and couldn't find it. Is it possible there is an ap on the phone that could have been used.

I think I just read something that you can now delete calls on some phones/plans.


----------



## Almostrecovered

there are apps that you can makes calls on now- I know textfree w/voice is one of them


----------



## Lovebug501

DailyGrind said:


> Just found this piece of paper in W's lunchbag....anyone know what it might mean?:
> 
> @messaging.sprintpcs.com
> 
> On back were these numbers:
> 0060439575
> 20-0492123
> 
> Is this some form of hidden communication?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay... I've been following your thread for sometime and now feel like I should chime in..

The 20# is likely an EIN. When you apply for an EIN online, they start with a 20 (or at least they did a couple years ago). It's entirely possible that she has this information for income tax purposes. I obviously don't know your income tax business - but the other number could be an account number. Who knows what she needs it for - but that part doesn't seem at all concerning to me.

The other side of the note however is, as another poster pointed out, the domain for sprint's mobile text messaging via e-mail. All she needs is to know the person's telephone number and can e-mail them to their phone all day. But that too could be completely innocuous.

For YEARS, my H believed I was cheating on him. Everything I did was a red flag to him. I wasn't. However, the constant barrage of "you're cheating" kept me thinking it was a guilty conscience... and I found evidence that suggested he was cheating on me - which he claims he wasn't.

The way that ended was that the OW snuck in, played on his insecurities, convinced him I was cheating, and they started a PA. Then she convinced me that he was cheating (but not with her) and after I found evidence that he was less than faithful (responding to sex ads online), I began a revenge/exit PA.

And now I'm here.

Bottom line - drop the spying and suspicion. You might not like to hear this - but if she's screwing some OM/OW, she's going to do it whether you like it or not. She's going to hide it. She's going to get very good at hiding it. But eventually, she will slip up and you will know. If she isn't - you just look like an a$$hole for constantly spying and accusing her.

Either you want to work on this marriage or you don't. Spying and suspicion aren't working on the marriage. Someone has to take the first step. Give us all a valid reason why it shouldn't be you... And if you have a valid reason, it sure as h*ll ain't going to be her - so get it over with and file for divorce.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> He searched and searched for another phone and couldn't find it. Is it possible there is an ap on the phone that could have been used.
> 
> I think I just read something that you can now delete calls on some phones/plans.


I looked....didn't see one.


----------



## DailyGrind

Lovebug501 said:


> Okay... I've been following your thread for sometime and now feel like I should chime in..
> 
> The 20# is likely an EIN. When you apply for an EIN online, they start with a 20 (or at least they did a couple years ago). It's entirely possible that she has this information for income tax purposes. I obviously don't know your income tax business - but the other number could be an account number. Who knows what she needs it for - but that part doesn't seem at all concerning to me.
> 
> The other side of the note however is, as another poster pointed out, the domain for sprint's mobile text messaging via e-mail. All she needs is to know the person's telephone number and can e-mail them to their phone all day. But that too could be completely innocuous.
> 
> For YEARS, my H believed I was cheating on him. Everything I did was a red flag to him. I wasn't. However, the constant barrage of "you're cheating" kept me thinking it was a guilty conscience... and I found evidence that suggested he was cheating on me - which he claims he wasn't.
> 
> The way that ended was that the OW snuck in, played on his insecurities, convinced him I was cheating, and they started a PA. Then she convinced me that he was cheating (but not with her) and after I found evidence that he was less than faithful (responding to sex ads online), I began a revenge/exit PA.
> 
> And now I'm here.
> 
> Bottom line - drop the spying and suspicion. You might not like to hear this - but if she's screwing some OM/OW, she's going to do it whether you like it or not. She's going to hide it. She's going to get very good at hiding it. But eventually, she will slip up and you will know. If she isn't - you just look like an a$$hole for constantly spying and accusing her.
> 
> Either you want to work on this marriage or you don't. Spying and suspicion aren't working on the marriage. Someone has to take the first step. Give us all a valid reason why it shouldn't be you... And if you have a valid reason, it sure as h*ll ain't going to be her - so get it over with and file for divorce.


Well...I didn't do ANY of this spying until I accidentally stumbled onto her emails to the one guy, in October. But...I am trying to not let the "red flags" get to me. It's not like she hasn't GIVEN me reason to be suspicious though. I'm not just making this stuff up in my head.

That being said. You are right....she will do what she will do. I need to focus on what I will do. Work on the marriage...and if nothing changes.....file and move on. It sounds easy in the light of day....and most days it is. Then....I trigger on something....and BAM!


----------



## Lovebug501

DailyGrind said:


> I looked....didn't see one.


Because it's entirely possible she deleted the app.

When I was in my PA, I had another e-mail address. I would add it to my phone when I left my house and delete it on my way home. Same with apps that I used to communicate.

It's not that hard to hide these things if you really want to.

And frankly, way back when my H was accusing me of cheating - I would test him to find out what he was doing because he would always blow his cover. And if I suspected or found a VAR in my car, I wouldn't be above borrowing a phone from someone or from my office (if they were available) and having a totally innocent conversation - knowing he was listening - and waiting for him to flip out so that I could show him how p*ssed off I was about the VAR.

I also would totally leave my cell phone in my desk drawer all day because it was GPSed and I knew it. No matter what I was doing. I don't like being spied on. By my boss or my H. It sucks to feel like you are being watched and listened to all the time and know that someone is constantly analyzing what your saying and trying to find ways to twist it on you.

I think she's playing head games with you.


----------



## lordmayhem

Lovebug501 said:


> Because it's entirely possible she deleted the app.
> 
> When I was in my PA, I had another e-mail address. I would add it to my phone when I left my house and delete it on my way home. Same with apps that I used to communicate.
> 
> It's not that hard to hide these things if you really want to.
> 
> And frankly, way back when my H was accusing me of cheating - I would test him to find out what he was doing because he would always blow his cover. And if I suspected or found a VAR in my car, I wouldn't be above borrowing a phone from someone or from my office (if they were available) and having a totally innocent conversation - knowing he was listening - and waiting for him to flip out so that I could show him how p*ssed off I was about the VAR.
> 
> I also would totally leave my cell phone in my desk drawer all day because it was GPSed and I knew it. No matter what I was doing. I don't like being spied on. By my boss or my H. It sucks to feel like you are being watched and listened to all the time and know that someone is constantly analyzing what your saying and trying to find ways to twist it on you.
> 
> I think she's playing head games with you.


You're pretty good at this. You've got it all down pat. Thanks for the perspective.


----------



## tennisstar

Lovebug501 said:


> Okay... I've been following your thread for sometime and now feel like I should chime in..
> 
> The 20# is likely an EIN. When you apply for an EIN online, they start with a 20 (or at least they did a couple years ago). It's entirely possible that she has this information for income tax purposes. I obviously don't know your income tax business - but the other number could be an account number. Who knows what she needs it for - but that part doesn't seem at all concerning to me.
> 
> The other side of the note however is, as another poster pointed out, the domain for sprint's mobile text messaging via e-mail. All she needs is to know the person's telephone number and can e-mail them to their phone all day. But that too could be completely innocuous.
> 
> For YEARS, my H believed I was cheating on him. Everything I did was a red flag to him. I wasn't. However, the constant barrage of "you're cheating" kept me thinking it was a guilty conscience... and I found evidence that suggested he was cheating on me - which he claims he wasn't.
> 
> The way that ended was that the OW snuck in, played on his insecurities, convinced him I was cheating, and they started a PA. Then she convinced me that he was cheating (but not with her) and after I found evidence that he was less than faithful (responding to sex ads online), I began a revenge/exit PA.
> 
> And now I'm here.
> 
> Bottom line - drop the spying and suspicion. You might not like to hear this - but if she's screwing some OM/OW, she's going to do it whether you like it or not. She's going to hide it. She's going to get very good at hiding it. But eventually, she will slip up and you will know. If she isn't - you just look like an a$$hole for constantly spying and accusing her.
> 
> Either you want to work on this marriage or you don't. Spying and suspicion aren't working on the marriage. Someone has to take the first step. Give us all a valid reason why it shouldn't be you... And if you have a valid reason, it sure as h*ll ain't going to be her - so get it over with and file for divorce.



Totally agree. Stop all the suspicion. You don't know that she has another "secret" phone. Now, you're chasing numbers and codes. Is this how you want to spend you life? All you're going to do is decrease the trust in your marriage even more and make her more resentful. Yes, you caught her in an EA almost turned PA once. She's told you she's unhappy with you. She is doing little to work on this marriage. She doesn't want to sleep with you. I hate to say it, I still think she's in this marriage at this point because she is afraid of supporting herself and the kids on her income. It just doesn't sound like you two have made any progress.


----------



## tennisstar

DailyGrind said:


> Guys...my promotion this year made me a controller for an international firm...with offices in China, UK, and the Middle East. I am frequently on conference calls with these parts of the world, in the evening. Also....I spend so much time putting out fires during the day....I need time in the evening to do substantive work. This year was incredibly difficult because it took me four months to find my replacement....meaning I did BOTH jobs. Even after I found my replacement....I'm STILL trying to get him up to speed. So...this year...I've been unbelievably busy. But the light of day is coming.
> 
> That being said......for years I tried to compromise with her. Just stay up until 10:00 - 11:00...we can both go to bed. She wouldn't. Understand....that through 2008...she was a SAHM. So...I just couldn't understand it. Maybe something we can work on during MC.


I understand having to work in the evening with your type of job. One of my friends is an auditor and had to work until 2 in the morning for years on end. Of course, her marriage fell apart. And while people said she should have just got another job, she had $150K in student loans to pay back - she couldn't just get another job...so I understand that.

However, even when she was a SAHM she wouldn't stay up late with you. DG, if you were a friend looking in, what would that tell you? She doesn't want an intimacy with you. Hasn't it been years since you've had sex?


----------



## tennisstar

lordmayhem said:


> Conversations caught on VAR that don't show up on the cell phone bill equals what exactly? That in addition to the red flags. I look at the totality of the case, as my instructors taught me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So what if she has a secret phone and is cheating? He can't make her stop. Why should he spend his time chasing after shadows?


----------



## Lovebug501

lordmayhem said:


> You're pretty good at this. You've got it all down pat. Thanks for the perspective.


Honestly - I see some of myself in his wife.

The more my H pushed [after the affairs], the more I withdrew.

Additionally, back before the affairs on both sides, he would say things to me that I took to heart and that really hurt me... and those things caused me to lose desire for intimacy with him. The more I withdrew, the more he thought I was cheating. The more he thought I was cheating, the more I suspected him. The more I suspected him, the more I withdrew.

Ugly, vicious cycle.

DG: As I think about this, it becomes clearer to me. The advice I would give is this:

Go to your wife. Tell her that you have been spying and watching and listening and that you think you both know that. And that you know that if she is going to cheat, there is nothing you can do about it. Either way, the spying is stopping here and now. That you want to repair your marriage. That you are listening and you want her to tell you what it is that has caused her to pull away. Then sit and listen. Do not speak. Listen. Do not defend your actions. No matter how petty her grievances are (and they will be petty, likely).

It was all the little things over 14 years that slowly built up the wall of resentment I had. It took a million (exaggerating) little bricks to build the pyramids. And it's taking a million little things to slowly tear down my wall - but it all starts with listening.


----------



## lordmayhem

tennisstar said:


> So what if she has a secret phone and is cheating? He can't make her stop. Why should he spend his time chasing after shadows?


You're right. Its time to kick her to the curb.


----------



## working_together

The problem is that she is not responsive with these types of discussions. Lack of communication seems to be the main issue in their marriage.

This also has to be addressed in MC. And apparently she is more open in MC, which means a perfect time to practice opening up to one another.


----------



## BambooScot

Here is my read: your spouse feels like she is broken and beaten down. You are more like her bullying older brother than a loving husband so she has done what she can to protect yourself. Doing the "180" only adds to the aloofness that she feels from you. The ultimatium divorce note you gave her a couple of weeks ago felt like more bullying. Try viewing her as wounded. How would you treat her. Try to care for her without keeping score, without trying to respond to each criticism with justifications. It may be real telling to see what she said when she reached out to others. Not from a perspective to catch her in anything but to understand what she is feeling and thinking. Just my thoughts. Apologize if I offend.


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> The problem is that she is not responsive with these types of discussions. Lack of communication seems to be the main issue in their marriage.
> 
> This also has to be addressed in MC. And apparently she is more open in MC, which means a perfect time to practice opening up to one another.


THIS! I've tried the communicating....I've done the "I'm listening" thing. Nothing. So...I agree...and am TRYING to not let the demons loose in my head...about what is she up to. If she'd just have a normal conversation with me....."hey...how was your day? I dealt with ##### today....sucked. Also had to ######......"...etc. I was going to insert "yadda yadda yadda"...but that didn't end well for George Kastanza, in Seinfeld. 

But...since we don't really have those conversations.....60% of her day is nothing but a cone of silence to me.

Anyway....hopefully the MC sessions will draw her out. Lord knows, I was never really able to. Being more open about ones days, does WONDERS for allaying fears for the spouse.


----------



## Lovebug501

working_together said:


> The problem is that she is not responsive with these types of discussions. Lack of communication seems to be the main issue in their marriage.
> 
> This also has to be addressed in MC. And apparently she is more open in MC, which means a perfect time to practice opening up to one another.


I wasn't either. Never said the discussion couldn't take place in MC. I think MC is a perfect place to have this discussion. If that's a safe place for her to speak. As long as she can see that he is listening and not going to interrupt and defend, she will talk.

I also think it's key to not bring it up later. Just do what you can to fix the issues. For ex... she obviously hates that you mistreat the cat. It's a defenseless animal who was brought into your home to be loved and cared for. It was like the cat said - "Hey you know what would tick off your H? Bring me home because he's allergic! I'll throw up on the floor because that'll really get him going!!" So don't "push it away with your foot", which we all know means that you essentially kick the cat. Let it be. Feed the stupid thing. Clean up the puke. Don't cuddle with it or do anything that would set off your allergies. However, showing a bit of effort and doing something you don't want to do (with your wife knowing that you are allergic and that you don't want to do it, so it IS a sacrifice on your behalf), could speak volumes to your wife. 

You might be surprised at the reaction of your wife to these small simple steps.


----------



## Lovebug501

DailyGrind said:


> If she'd just have a normal conversation with me....."hey...how was your day? I dealt with ##### today....sucked. Also had to ######......"...etc.


I didn't talk about this stuff with my H either. I figured he knows nothing about the industry in which I work, so I'm just speaking gibberish to him and that he really didn't want to hear about work... because I really didn't want to hear about work from him and he's speaking gibberish to me when he talks about his job.

He seems really surprised when I have nothing to say because there's nothing in my day that I think would be interesting to him... or there's just nothing in my day that's interesting. There's lots of days that I don't want to relive my workday when I get home. 

And if she's resentful about junk from the past, she doesn't care how your day went. Another thought is this... you are now this "big important international affairs guy who talks to Japan and other countries until late in the evening", while she is an HR Director for a small company... how can you each relate to each other's days?


----------



## DailyGrind

Lovebug501 said:


> I wasn't either. Never said the discussion couldn't take place in MC. I think MC is a perfect place to have this discussion. If that's a safe place for her to speak. As long as she can see that he is listening and not going to interrupt and defend, she will talk.
> 
> I also think it's key to not bring it up later. Just do what you can to fix the issues. For ex... she obviously hates that you mistreat the cat. It's a defenseless animal who was brought into your home to be loved and cared for. It was like the cat said - "Hey you know what would tick off your H? Bring me home because he's allergic! I'll throw up on the floor because that'll really get him going!!" So don't "push it away with your foot", which we all know means that you essentially kick the cat. Let it be. Feed the stupid thing. Clean up the puke. Don't cuddle with it or do anything that would set off your allergies. However, showing a bit of effort and doing something you don't want to do (with your wife knowing that you are allergic and that you don't want to do it, so it IS a sacrifice on your behalf), could speak volumes to your wife.
> 
> You might be surprised at the reaction of your wife to these small simple steps.


First off...I do NOT mistreat the cat. I say "damn cat" under my breath...."hate that damn cat"...under my breath......and "this POS cat just retched in the living room again"...loudly. But..I don't mistreat the cat. Sure...I used to make if fall off the bed, when it attacked my feet in the middle of the night. But....it's a freak'n CAT...they land on their feet.....ALWAYS. I'll do all kinds of things for my wife. In fact...there's probably not a lot I WOULDN'T do for my wife. BUT...I draw the line with the cat. I didn't want it...we made a deal.....she needs to stick to it. There is absolutely no reason why I should be FORCED to do anything for the cat. I'm sure there are all kinds of other things I could do for her, to try and speak volumes. And NO...I do not kick the cat. I PUSH it out from under me, at the dinner table ....cause it keeps going to ME to rub against. It isn't forceful...it's just "go away."


----------



## DailyGrind

Lovebug501 said:


> I didn't talk about this stuff with my H either. I figured he knows nothing about the industry in which I work, so I'm just speaking gibberish to him and that he really didn't want to hear about work... because I really didn't want to hear about work from him and he's speaking gibberish to me when he talks about his job.
> 
> He seems really surprised when I have nothing to say because there's nothing in my day that I think would be interesting to him... or there's just nothing in my day that's interesting. There's lots of days that I don't want to relive my workday when I get home.
> 
> And if she's resentful about junk from the past, she doesn't care how your day went. Another thought is this... you are now this "big important international affairs guy who talks to Japan and other countries until late in the evening", while she is an HR Director for a small company... how can you each relate to each other's days?


Because I deal with HR issues all the time. I deal with Payroll all the time. I deal with IT issues all the time. She deals with all the same things. I'm the one who reminded HER that the Social Security discount was set to expire at the end of last year...and she should remind her employees this may happen (if Congress doesn't pass an extension.) I know stuff. So does she. I think sharing one's day with a SO is a very important part of letting them into their lives. I mean...are we ONLY going to talk about the kids? Because I love her....I would be interested in her day.


----------



## strugglinghusband

Amen to that brother, I had no intrest in my wifes work, until now, her job is very important to her and when she comes home, I'll ask her about her day, certain projects she's working on, I remember all the details, whos in charge of what etc etc, and ask questions, this has made a huge diff in our realtionship, its important to her so it became important to me...

.Sounds like you are searching for common ground and just cant get there, yet...

As for the cat, mine loves her's like a kid, but if I was allegric to it, it would be gone in a second


----------



## Chaparral

Even though you had a deal w/wife about cats, I'm guessing she thought you would love it once you saw how cute and fun it was. By rejecting her cat you rejected her. By the way there are no deals in a love relationship, there is taking care of each others needs and sacrifice.

Go here learn this song and sing it to her and the cat: 

The big bang theory-S2e21-soft kitty song when Sheldon Cooper was home sick - YouTube


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> First off...I do NOT mistreat the cat. I say "damn cat" under my breath...."hate that damn cat"...under my breath......and "this POS cat just retched in the living room again"...loudly. But..I don't mistreat the cat. Sure...I used to make if fall off the bed, when it attacked my feet in the middle of the night. But....it's a freak'n CAT...they land on their feet.....ALWAYS. I'll do all kinds of things for my wife. In fact...there's probably not a lot I WOULDN'T do for my wife. BUT...I draw the line with the cat. I didn't want it...we made a deal.....she needs to stick to it. There is absolutely no reason why I should be FORCED to do anything for the cat. I'm sure there are all kinds of other things I could do for her, to try and speak volumes. And NO...I do not kick the cat. I PUSH it out from under me, at the dinner table ....cause it keeps going to ME to rub against. It isn't forceful...it's just "go away."



Darn, that issue with cat crept up again lol

I never got the idea you mistreated it, on the other hand, you should have said "NO" to getting it. I think you thought it would have made her happier and perhaps change her tune with you a bit.


----------



## lordmayhem

That's right! Her cats are your soulmate schmoopies too!

PART 6–A Very Serious Problem « Soul Mate Shmoopies


----------



## working_together

chapparal said:


> Even though you had a deal w/wife about cats, I'm guessing she thought you would love it once you saw how cute and fun it was. By rejecting her cat you rejected her. By the way there are no deals in a love relationship, there is taking care of each others needs and sacrifice.
> 
> Go here learn this song and sing it to her and the cat:
> 
> The big bang theory-S2e21-soft kitty song when Sheldon Cooper was home sick - YouTube


So picture this: her talking to herself in the car, him singing to the cat.....nice.

just poking fun at you Daily...lol


----------



## strugglinghusband

working_together said:


> So picture this: her talking to herself in the car, him singing to the cat.....nice.
> 
> just poking fun at you Daily...lol


maybe, just maybe she was talking to the cat in the car? and the cat was Morris and talked back? gets freakier and freakier all the time...


----------



## working_together

"smelly cat, smelly cat.....Friends (the show)


----------



## Lovebug501

DailyGrind said:


> In fact...there's probably not a lot I WOULDN'T do for my wife. BUT...I draw the line with the cat. I didn't want it...we made a deal.....she needs to stick to it. There is absolutely no reason why I should be FORCED to do anything for the cat. I'm sure there are all kinds of other things I could do for her, to try and speak volumes.


Even if it meant your marriage? You are right. You aren't FORCED to do anything for the cat. It's the fact that you do it even though you don't want to. Even though you made a deal.

From my perspective... I HATE taking out the trash. This is the ONE thing that was my H's responsibility alone. I shouldn't be FORCED to take out the trash. We had a deal! But you know what... I'll take out the damn trash. And it means a heck of a lot more to my H when I do it because he knows I HATE it - even more so if I don't b*tch about taking it out before or after I do.

Sure. There are other ways to take care of your wife. But if this is the one thing that you flat out REFUSE to do... and you did it without complaint, just because you love your wife... how much more is that worth to you wife? And I'm not saying it now becomes your responsibility.

And really - if this is THAT big of a deal to you - tell your wife that the cat goes or you go (or they both go). See how she responds to that.

Because you hold a lot of resentment over a cat - and the cat is part of what's tearing your marriage apart.


----------



## FourtyPlus

You can talk about each other's day even if you dont' have the slightest clue about what your spouse does for a living. Everyone can relate to the "smelly" guy at work, EVERYONE! Everyone can relate to stress or problems with a boss. I take an interest in my husband's work because I love him, not so much because I'm knowledgable about his kind of work. I expect the same thing the other way around. Back in the old days I told him about my exiting life as a SAHM and he'd tell me about engine stuff. These days we're in the same industry, which I admit, takes up most of our time and is almost always the topic of conversation.

I wish you'd get rid of the cat for the cat's sake, not yours. That cat is a living creature with feelings and it's being used as a punching ball between you and your wife. Shame on her for not taking care of it, shame on you for rejecting the cat's attempts to be your friend despite the fact that you call it names, under your breath or not.
There's absolutely no reason why the cat should be FORCED to be the scapegoat in all of this.


----------



## working_together

Lovebug501 said:


> Even if it meant your marriage? You are right. You aren't FORCED to do anything for the cat. It's the fact that you do it even though you don't want to. Even though you made a deal.
> 
> From my perspective... I HATE taking out the trash. This is the ONE thing that was my H's responsibility alone. I shouldn't be FORCED to take out the trash. We had a deal! But you know what... I'll take out the damn trash. And it means a heck of a lot more to my H when I do it because he knows I HATE it - even more so if I don't b*tch about taking it out before or after I do.
> 
> Sure. There are other ways to take care of your wife. But if this is the one thing that you flat out REFUSE to do... and you did it without complaint, just because you love your wife... how much more is that worth to you wife? And I'm not saying it now becomes your responsibility.
> 
> And really - if this is THAT big of a deal to you - tell your wife that the cat goes or you go (or they both go). See how she responds to that.
> 
> Because you hold a lot of resentment over a cat - and the cat is part of what's tearing your marriage apart.


It's not the cat, it's what the cat symbolizes in the marriage....doing things that you later resent the other for.


----------



## Almostrecovered

bag, rock, river


----------



## FourtyPlus

Lovebug501 said:


> Even if it meant your marriage? You are right. You aren't FORCED to do anything for the cat. It's the fact that you do it even though you don't want to. Even though you made a deal.
> 
> From my perspective... I HATE taking out the trash. This is the ONE thing that was my H's responsibility alone. I shouldn't be FORCED to take out the trash. We had a deal! But you know what... I'll take out the damn trash. And it means a heck of a lot more to my H when I do it because he knows I HATE it - even more so if I don't b*tch about taking it out before or after I do.
> 
> Sure. There are other ways to take care of your wife. But if this is the one thing that you flat out REFUSE to do... and you did it without complaint, just because you love your wife... how much more is that worth to you wife? And I'm not saying it now becomes your responsibility.
> 
> And really - if this is THAT big of a deal to you - tell your wife that the cat goes or you go (or they both go). See how she responds to that.
> 
> Because you hold a lot of resentment over a cat - and the cat is part of what's tearing your marriage apart.


I would be willing to bet money that if Daily stopped calling the cat names and stopped pushing it away, his wife would start cleaning up cat barf and she might just be so taken by Daily's grand gesture that she starts opening up about a lot of things (that's me assuming she doesn't have an affair, I absolutely believe she's just very unhappy in her marriage and it can be fixed).
I might be totally wrong but we'll never know unless Daily gives it a try.


----------



## strugglinghusband

Almostrecovered said:


> bag, rock, river


I spit my drink out reading that...lmao...

did you mean for the cat or the wife? just kiidding!! before anyone jumps my ass about that...


----------



## Lovebug501

FourtyPlus said:


> I would be willing to bet money that if Daily stopped calling the cat names and stopped pushing it away, his wife would start cleaning up cat barf and she might just be so taken by Daily's grand gesture that she starts opening up about a lot of things (that's me assuming she doesn't have an affair, I absolutely believe she's just very unhappy in her marriage and it can be fixed).
> I might be totally wrong but we'll never know unless Daily gives it a try.


My point exactly.


----------



## Almostrecovered

strugglinghusband said:


> I spit my drink out reading that...lmao...
> 
> did you mean for the cat or the wife?



I only listed three nouns, interpretation is up to the reader


----------



## FourtyPlus

Lovebug501 said:


> My point exactly.


Right back attcha!


----------



## FourtyPlus

Okay so before we drown, stone or sufficate the cat, send it over! We used to have 4 and lost one last year. She was my husband's favorite. Come to think of it, he's allergic to cats. LOL, maybe that's why you're getting flak from me.


----------



## Chaparral

I'm guessing over the last few years a lot of the fun guy you used to be has been disappearing. The 180 should be helping bring that person back.

Many people think you are not supposed to talk/interact with your WW but that is not what it is about. For example, you have said before,the two of you were already basically doing the 180.

As a matter of fact, you should probably work into just talking to her whether or not she joins in or not. After work, men supposedly need 15/20 min to relax before starting in on family life. Not sure about women. But start a monologue if you have to.

You can talk to her/kids without demanding her participation. Just show her your interested. Make nice comments, clean up after the cat, get her car washed and be happy.

By the way in 27 yrs the only pets I was on board with were my 2 huge German Shepherds (RIP). All the birds, gerbils, cats, cats, and more cats, and more animals were always going to be someone elses responsibility including our latest mini schnauz. Guess who gets almost all the hard,nasty,clean up, burial, work.

I did teach my daughter how to get a dead possum out of the fish pond and into a garbage bag without touching it. She seems to be permanately scarred though she did have the courage to do it. The possum taught me to build a way out of the fish pond for wayward animals. LOL

Anyway, at this point you need to find a way to cheer up/lighten up and be fun to be around no matter how things are going to turn out. Good humor IS contagious.


----------



## JustaJerk

Don't you see what the cat issue does to this guy, already... have you no heart?

@working- YOUR'E NOT HEPLING... take that avatar down this instant!


----------



## working_together

I'm going to say one more thing about cats, and then I'm done....lol

FYI, cat barf is a natural occurance, it's actually hair balls, try having 4 cats puke on a daily basis.

ok maybe two things...

Cat barf isn't all that bad really, you let it dry up, and the cats end up eating it all over again. No cleaning up..problem solved.


Sorry if I made anyone sick.....:lol:


----------



## working_together

JustaJerk said:


> Don't you see what the cat issue does to this guy, already... have you no heart?
> 
> @working- YOUR'E NOT HEPLING... take that avatar down this instant!



Make me!!!! now I'll leave it up just to mess with ya. lol


----------



## JustaJerk

> I'm going to say one more thing about cats, and then I'm done....lol
> 
> FYI, cat barf is a natural occurance, it's actually hair balls, try having 4 cats puke on a daily basis.
> 
> ok maybe two things...
> 
> Cat barf isn't all that bad really, you let it dry up, and the cats end up eating it all over again. No cleaning up..problem solved.
> 
> 
> Sorry if I made anyone sick.....


WHY...???


----------



## JustaJerk

See what bringing up the cat situation does to Daily.


----------



## working_together

JustaJerk said:


> See what bringing up the cat situation does to Daily.


That looks like me when my lap top freezes..grr


----------



## working_together

JustaJerk said:


> WHY...???


Because there's also cat food in it.


----------



## Almostrecovered

from my favorite book


----------



## Halien

FourtyPlus said:


> I would be willing to bet money that if Daily stopped calling the cat names and stopped pushing it away, his wife would start cleaning up cat barf and she might just be so taken by Daily's grand gesture that she starts opening up about a lot of things (that's me assuming she doesn't have an affair, I absolutely believe she's just very unhappy in her marriage and it can be fixed).
> I might be totally wrong but we'll never know unless Daily gives it a try.


You do realize that you are talking about a purely hypothetical situation involving a person who is modelled after nothing more than a gender stereotype? This is exactly the same scenario that some of these men on this site encounter when a poster responds by telling them that their saintly, emotionally healthy hypothetical wife only cheated because they obviously had to be failing miserably at meeting her emotional needs.

Why don't we take a step back and talk about what we really know about DG's wife? Recognize that he is the only one who can provide input on what she is like. Hasn't he said that this woman has really never managed to have a relationship that encompassed healthy communication? Maybe you can help DG?

I don't remember everything you've said about her, but based on what I do remember, her normal style seemed to be described as a person who tentatively initiated, but backed off at the first sign of awkwardness. If so, there is a need for a different approach from simply cleaning up cat puke. Call me naive, but it seems that a healthy marriage involves two people who share a responsibility to initiate communication. Over time, it may break down when one person saves the resentment and backs off. The replies here are suggesting that this is where your wife is. It really seems, however, that she forgot about the communication part and just started out with the resentment part. Either way, only DG can provide something that is not a hypothetical straw man.


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> Darn, that issue with cat crept up again lol
> 
> I never got the idea you mistreated it, on the other hand, you should have said "NO" to getting it. I think you thought it would have made her happier and perhaps change her tune with you a bit.


Well...she got it just before we married. I couldn't say no....I love her. And, to be honest....there were definitely times I played with it. But...it just wasn't my cup of tea. Really...I never MINDED it so much, until about 3 years ago...when it started retching all over the place. Stepped in that crap too often for my liking. Still...I never insisted she get rid of it, or anything. I just found it irritating. I don't really see the cat as much of an issue. I was just puzzled she brought it up on her list.


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> so picture this: Her talking to herself in the car, him singing to the cat.....nice.
> 
> Just poking fun at you daily...lol


har har!


----------



## DailyGrind

Lovebug501 said:


> Even if it meant your marriage? You are right. You aren't FORCED to do anything for the cat. It's the fact that you do it even though you don't want to. Even though you made a deal.
> 
> From my perspective... I HATE taking out the trash. This is the ONE thing that was my H's responsibility alone. I shouldn't be FORCED to take out the trash. We had a deal! But you know what... I'll take out the damn trash. And it means a heck of a lot more to my H when I do it because he knows I HATE it - even more so if I don't b*tch about taking it out before or after I do.
> 
> Sure. There are other ways to take care of your wife. But if this is the one thing that you flat out REFUSE to do... and you did it without complaint, just because you love your wife... how much more is that worth to you wife? And I'm not saying it now becomes your responsibility.
> 
> And really - if this is THAT big of a deal to you - tell your wife that the cat goes or you go (or they both go). See how she responds to that.
> 
> Because you hold a lot of resentment over a cat - and the cat is part of what's tearing your marriage apart.


I really don't harbor resentment about it. I'm just pretty ambivolent about it. I just really don't know HOW that made it on her list of "issues." boggles my mind. If I got a dog, that she doesn't want..and said I'd be the one to take care of it....I can't IMAGINE being mad at her cause she didn't fall in love with it. I DID take care of the cat during both pregnancies...cause she wasn't supposed to deal with the litter cleanup during pregnancies.


----------



## DailyGrind

Lovebug501 said:


> My point exactly.


Guys...the cat REALLY is a tangent, here. I don't know why she put it on her list...but it can't be THAT big a deal. It certainly is NOT the reason we are where we are. It just seems to be SOMETHING she could put on a list. I don't know if it is just reaching for things (on her part) to justify her actions...or what. BUT...I'm REALLY not mean to the cat. I'm just not loving.


----------



## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> Okay so before we drown, stone or sufficate the cat, send it over! We used to have 4 and lost one last year. She was my husband's favorite. Come to think of it, he's allergic to cats. LOL, maybe that's why you're getting flak from me.


W's parents have 6 (count them SIX) cats in their house. I just load up on sudafed before we go over there. I put up with them.....BUT....I'm just NOT a cat person. BUT...it is HER cat...so I've learned to let that issue be. The only point here was that she would get a cat....KNOWING I'm allergic to it. If ANYONE has an issue over the darn thing....I thought it was me. But...you guys seem to disagree.


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> I'm going to say one more thing about cats, and then I'm done....lol
> 
> FYI, cat barf is a natural occurance, it's actually hair balls, try having 4 cats puke on a daily basis.
> 
> ok maybe two things...
> 
> Cat barf isn't all that bad really, you let it dry up, and the cats end up eating it all over again. No cleaning up..problem solved.
> 
> 
> Sorry if I made anyone sick.....:lol:


Except...it is DAILY......it doesn't re-eat it....and doesn't get cleaned up. Disgusting.


----------



## DailyGrind

JustaJerk said:


> See what bringing up the cat situation does to Daily.


LOL!!!


----------



## DailyGrind

UPDATE:

WELL...this seems interesting. We (W and I) just got a confirmation from the library on some books she requested to be held:

Title: Can't get through : 8 barriers to communication
Author: Hogan, Kevin.

Title: Make peace with anyone : breakthrough strategies to quickly end any conflict, feud, or estrangement
Author: Lieberman, David J.

Title: Saying what's real : seven keys to authentic communication and relationship success
Author: Campbell, Susan M., 1941-

Title: The book of no : 250 ways to say it--and mean it--and stop people-pleasing forever
Author: Newman, Susan.

Title: We really need to talk : steps to better communication
Author: Donoghue, Paul J.

Maybe there WAS a breakthrough in our counseling last weekend?? :smthumbup:


----------



## Shaggy

All very good signs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## skip76

Lovebug501 said:


> Honestly - I see some of myself in his wife.
> 
> The more my H pushed [after the affairs], the more I withdrew.
> 
> Additionally, back before the affairs on both sides, he would say things to me that I took to heart and that really hurt me... and those things caused me to lose desire for intimacy with him. The more I withdrew, the more he thought I was cheating. The more he thought I was cheating, the more I suspected him. The more I suspected him, the more I withdrew.
> 
> Ugly, vicious cycle.
> 
> DG: As I think about this, it becomes clearer to me. The advice I would give is this:
> 
> Go to your wife. Tell her that you have been spying and watching and listening and that you think you both know that. And that you know that if she is going to cheat, there is nothing you can do about it. Either way, the spying is stopping here and now. That you want to repair your marriage. That you are listening and you want her to tell you what it is that has caused her to pull away. Then sit and listen. Do not speak. Listen. Do not defend your actions. No matter how petty her grievances are (and they will be petty, likely).
> 
> It was all the little things over 14 years that slowly built up the wall of resentment I had. It took a million (exaggerating) little bricks to build the pyramids. And it's taking a million little things to slowly tear down my wall - but it all starts with listening.




i like the beginning but you cant finish like that with her treating you like this. she knows she is treating you like crap and also knows you should not be putting up with it. 

Go to your wife. Tell her that you have been spying and watching and listening and that you think you both know that. And that you know that if she is going to cheat, there is nothing you can do about it. Either way, the spying is stopping here and now. That she won, do what you want. That you are not interested in hearing her excuses or trying to fix this. tell her you deserve better, at least a wife that would try. where is the effort? now this could be true or it could be a bluff but i warn you women are much better at this crap and she will know if you are bluffing. you have to out last this one. drop contact to a minimum, no i love you's, if she asks, tell her she killed it. wait her out and see if she wakes up. do not however say, can i please listen to you complain, maybe that will make you feel better. please, i f i have to worry about petty little things that happened over a 14 year stretch, i'll pass on that too. i don't think you can use the word petty if it is still bothering you. remember when you laughed at me when i couldn't open that jar of pickles in '87, that is why i f%$#ed someone else.


----------



## FourtyPlus

DailyGrind said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> WELL...this seems interesting. We (W and I) just got a confirmation from the library on some books she requested to be held:
> 
> Title: Can't get through : 8 barriers to communication
> Author: Hogan, Kevin.
> 
> Title: Make peace with anyone : breakthrough strategies to quickly end any conflict, feud, or estrangement
> Author: Lieberman, David J.
> 
> Title: Saying what's real : seven keys to authentic communication and relationship success
> Author: Campbell, Susan M., 1941-
> 
> Title: The book of no : 250 ways to say it--and mean it--and stop people-pleasing forever
> Author: Newman, Susan.
> 
> Title: We really need to talk : steps to better communication
> Author: Donoghue, Paul J.
> 
> Maybe there WAS a breakthrough in our counseling last weekend?? :smthumbup:



I think that's looking pretty good!:smthumbup:

But I still can't help it:

1. Can't get through - my husband hates my cat!
2. Make peace with anyone - even the cat!
3. Saying what's real - cat barf is!
4. The book of "No, we're not getting rid of my cat"
5. We really need to talk about my cat!


----------



## Lovebug501

skip76 said:


> i don't think you can use the word petty if it is still bothering you. remember when you laughed at me when i couldn't open that jar of pickles in '87, that is why i f%$#ed someone else.


They are petty to HIM, not to HER. 

It was all the little things that started us down the road to where we are. Any time I brought up something, he would defend and tell me it was stupid. Well, it wasn't stupid to me. More like - remember that time that I was 7 months pregnant and moving into an upstairs apartment and you were supposed to help and instead you went "skinny dipping" with a bunch of co-workers and "forgot" and rolled in at 6 a.m.? Remember when you told me that if I gained weight, you would f*ck someone else? I do... and I gained weight and you did... so I did too.

Looking back over my list of "petty" grievances, I realize that some of them are/were petty... but it took me actually getting them out there and him actually listening for me to realize they were petty and that they were all small symptoms of a much bigger problem.


----------



## Lovebug501

FourtyPlus said:


> I think that's looking pretty good!:smthumbup:


:iagree:


----------



## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> I think that's looking pretty good!:smthumbup:
> 
> But I still can't help it:
> 
> 1. Can't get through - my husband hates my cat!
> 2. Make peace with anyone - even the cat!
> 3. Saying what's real - cat barf is!
> 4. The book of "No, we're not getting rid of my cat"
> 5. We really need to talk about my cat!


LOL!


CAT = :FIREdevil:


This would work:


----------



## FourtyPlus

DailyGrind said:


> W's parents have 6 (count them SIX) cats in their house. I just load up on sudafed before we go over there. I put up with them.....BUT....I'm just NOT a cat person. BUT...it is HER cat...so I've learned to let that issue be. The only point here was that she would get a cat....KNOWING I'm allergic to it. If ANYONE has an issue over the darn thing....I thought it was me. But...you guys seem to disagree.


I understand the allergy thing, my husband itches like crazy if the cats "accidently" sleep on his pillow.
I think that you are more upset about having to clean up cat barf than the allergies though. You haven't said a word about teary eyes, itching, hives or anything but you have said tons about cat puke. Having a cat might have meant a lot to your wife and you agreeing to get one might have meant even more to her - that you love her! Now you're calling the cat names...see what I'm saying? She might hear and see this in a completely different way than you might mean it (You: I hate cat puke, Her: he doesn't love me)
I'm so stubborn about your cat (I guess) because mine are a comfort to both me and my husband, they are family.


----------



## FourtyPlus

DailyGrind said:


> LOL!
> 
> 
> CAT = :FIREdevil:
> 
> 
> This would work:


We also have two dogs and both of them were NOT cat people! They are now.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I love this thread
It is much better than Cats
I will read it again and again








(borrowed from an old SNL skit)


----------



## FourtyPlus

I'm very ashamed to admit this and I apologize upfront and will say that I do not want to make light of Daily's situation but this thread has been absolutely......entertaining for lack of a better word. The suspense is killing me and I secretly wish that Daily's wife is going to come around, open up and confess her undying love for him, Daily admits he's actually a cat lover, she buys him a new sail boat, her buys her a horse, they both quit their jobs and start their own company (doing whatever it is they do for a living) and they both sail into the sunset together with the cat sitting on Daily's shoulder (that's just a fantasy I have, I know he cat will end up being skinned).


----------



## Lovebug501

DG - I'm sorry if bringing up the cat again caused you stress or irritation. The only reason I brought it up is because it IS on her list... and it was one of the few things I could relate to...

It may be a mystery to you why the things are on her list... but that's part of the problem. To you, those things were never an issue - but to her, they are a big issue. Go back and look at the first three things on her list. These are the biggest problems in the marriage in her head. It doesn't matter where they are on your list.

If you don't address those items on her list and resolve them to her satisfaction, you will get no where. Why don't you make a list of your grievances? If she resolved the issues on that list, wouldn't you be happy? Wouldn't you be more in love with her than ever? Now how would you feel if she blew those things off as petty or not important?

My point in this is that to get through to your wife and to help her fall in love with you again, you have to resolve her issues with you in the marriage. You were lucky enough to come across a list. If you start to change those things without her telling you (at least without her knowing she's told you), then maybe she will see it as you recognizing what she doesn't like and seeing things from her point of view.

That's my last word on the subject.


----------



## DailyGrind

Lovebug501 said:


> DG - I'm sorry if bringing up the cat again caused you stress or irritation. The only reason I brought it up is because it IS on her list... and it was one of the few things I could relate to...
> 
> It may be a mystery to you why the things are on her list... but that's part of the problem. To you, those things were never an issue - but to her, they are a big issue. Go back and look at the first three things on her list. These are the biggest problems in the marriage in her head. It doesn't matter where they are on your list.
> 
> If you don't address those items on her list and resolve them to her satisfaction, you will get no where. Why don't you make a list of your grievances? If she resolved the issues on that list, wouldn't you be happy? Wouldn't you be more in love with her than ever? Now how would you feel if she blew those things off as petty or not important?
> 
> My point in this is that to get through to your wife and to help her fall in love with you again, you have to resolve her issues with you in the marriage. You were lucky enough to come across a list. If you start to change those things without her telling you (at least without her knowing she's told you), then maybe she will see it as you recognizing what she doesn't like and seeing things from her point of view.
> 
> That's my last word on the subject.


LoveBug...I hear ya...I honestly do. BUT...if one of the things on her list was that I had brown hair.......I'm not going out to bleach my hair, either. She knew I wasn't a cat person...she knew I was allergic to cats. Her complaint was that I was "mean" to the cat....not that I didn't love it. So...I won't do the things she thinks are mean. But neither will I magically fall in love with it either.


----------



## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> I love this thread
> It is much better than Cats
> I will read it again and again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (borrowed from an old SNL skit)


Did I mention that she was blind in one eye....and has a peg leg? 

Sorry....just trying to keep you guys entertained. Carry on.


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> WELL...this seems interesting. We (W and I) just got a confirmation from the library on some books she requested to be held:
> 
> Title: Can't get through : 8 barriers to communication
> Author: Hogan, Kevin.
> 
> Title: Make peace with anyone : breakthrough strategies to quickly end any conflict, feud, or estrangement
> Author: Lieberman, David J.
> 
> Title: Saying what's real : seven keys to authentic communication and relationship success
> Author: Campbell, Susan M., 1941-
> 
> Title: The book of no : 250 ways to say it--and mean it--and stop people-pleasing forever
> Author: Newman, Susan.
> 
> Title: We really need to talk : steps to better communication
> Author: Donoghue, Paul J.
> 
> Maybe there WAS a breakthrough in our counseling last weekend?? :smthumbup:



Daily, do you consider her a "people pleaser" ?


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> LOL!
> 
> 
> CAT = :FIREdevil:
> 
> 
> This would work:



That's awful....not funny to us cat people at all.


----------



## working_together

FourtyPlus said:


> I'm very ashamed to admit this and I apologize upfront and will say that I do not want to make light of Daily's situation but this thread has been absolutely......entertaining for lack of a better word. The suspense is killing me and I secretly wish that Daily's wife is going to come around, open up and confess her undying love for him, Daily admits he's actually a cat lover, she buys him a new sail boat, her buys her a horse, they both quit their jobs and start their own company (doing whatever it is they do for a living) and they both sail into the sunset together with the cat sitting on Daily's shoulder (that's just a fantasy I have, I know he cat will end up being skinned).


Yeah, I admit, I have enjoyed this thread quite a bit, It's like a mystery novel, I just want to get to the ending and find out what is actually going on here.

A happy ending would be great, just doesn't happen often enough on here.

I have had a few good laughs as well, much needed.


----------



## Chaparral

working_together said:


> That's awful....not funny to us cat people at all.


They're just playing


----------



## working_together

chapparal said:


> They're just playing


lol, no I know. Just gave me a flash back to my dog killing one of our kittens.

I'm over it. lol


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> Daily, do you consider her a "people pleaser" ?


No. I was curious about that one, as well.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> They're just playing


JUST PLAYING???!!! Dang...I googled "Dog mauling darling kitten picture". I got robbed!


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> lol, no I know. Just gave me a flash back to my dog killing one of our kittens.
> 
> I'm over it. lol


Sorry.  I'd never REALLY advocate that.


----------



## Chaparral

You have to assume she thinks she is a people pleaser and you think she's not. How do you feel about that?


----------



## working_together

I don't see your wife as a person that goes out of her way to please others. Yeah, she sailed around with you, let you have a garden, etc. But then she has a ll this resentment towards you about it, and treats you accordingly....people pleaser? not sure

And if she wanted to make you happy then she wouldn't have gotten the CAT (yes, I said it lol), it was actually kind of a selfish thing to do.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> You have to assume she thinks she is a people pleaser and you think she's not. How do you feel about that?


Well...to the extent she tends to just go along with the flow...She doesn't often originate things to do, hobbies, vacation ideas, etc.....she might just think she is a people pleaser cause she does what others want to do. But...she's kind of a wall flower at social events. She gets along with people fine....but tends to let them come to her...versus getting out there and meeting people. I guess I could see how SHE might think that.


----------



## Chaparral

working_together said:


> I don't see your wife as a person that goes out of her way to please others. Yeah, she sailed around with you, let you have a garden, etc. But then she has a ll this resentment towards you about it, and treats you accordingly....people pleaser? not sure
> 
> And if she wanted to make you happy then she wouldn't have gotten the CAT (yes, I said it lol), it was actually kind of a selfish thing to do.


Selfish and bad decisioons can be two different things. Wife comes from a cat family. I think she just thoght DG would love the cat once she got it. Instead he was offended and that in turn hurt her feelings. Just another case of good intentions gone bad. People hurt each other all the time and have no idea or intention of doing so.

BTW, it turns out that my whole family is allergic to cats. When we found this out we already had a house cat. It wasn't even a good cat. It hung on for fifteen years. We would have given it away but it liked to bite when it was done being petted.
That last trip to the vet was...........


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Well...to the extent she tends to just go along with the flow...She doesn't often originate things to do, hobbies, vacation ideas, etc.....she might just think she is a people pleaser cause she does what others want to do. But...she's kind of a wall flower at social events. She gets along with people fine....but tends to let them come to her...versus getting out there and meeting people. I guess I could see how SHE might think that.


Do you think your personality overwhelms her?


----------



## FourtyPlus

working_together said:


> I don't see your wife as a person that goes out of her way to please others. Yeah, she sailed around with you, let you have a garden, etc. But then she has a ll this resentment towards you about it, and treats you accordingly....people pleaser? not sure
> 
> And if she wanted to make you happy then she wouldn't have gotten the CAT (yes, I said it lol), it was actually kind of a selfish thing to do.


I agree absolutely, she should not have gotten the cat knowing you were allergic, that was selfish.

I think maybe since she is a wall flower and not very out going, she isn't a people pleaser by choice but because she doesn't have what it takes to throw a plate across the room and say "No, dammit!" Not that I'm throwing dishes around or anything like that.....


----------



## Dadof3

Many people with mental health issues are what I describe as "night and day" (my oldest son who is 19 is like this).

They are daylight when they are at work and school (people pleasers, nice to a fault, etc). Then they become night (not respectful, grumpy, take their troubles out on you) when they get home. 

Based on this thread and our conversation earlier about the beginning of your relationship and marriage, I'm inclined to say, your W has a mental illness. These books are more than likely to not do anything for her (if she does have a mental illness) without counseling.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Do you think your personality overwhelms her?


I don't know.....something for the MC to determine, I guess.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Any updates?


Funny you should ask...I was JUST getting ready to update. 

Well....we had our MC yesterday. This was a MUCH better session. Actually, she was quite a bit friendlier the week after our last session (two weeks ago)...for about a week. Last week she was more distant, again. I THINK this was because I've been dealing with year-end..and working my butt off. Once again, coming home late. But, I tried to limit that to only a total of 5 days (out of the past two weeks.) I did do a LOT of work from home (all last weekend, for instance.) But....this year is much better than prior years.

Anyway...we were actually talking fairly nicely (nothing deep)...but fairly friendly yesterday. By the time we got to the MC, we were actually joking around a bit. MC came in and commented how we seemed so much lighter than we had previously. MC pointed out that the first two sessions, W basically refused to really even talk at all. 

So...MC starts us off with our appreciations of each other..then asked what we wanted to discuss. I had actually triggered pretty hard during the week. I wasn't sure I wanted to bring out any of the heavy stuff...but finally decided I NEEDED to talk about the attempted EA. MC aske W if she was willing to talk about it. She basically responded that there really wasn't anything to talk about, and started in again about how he was just a friend...and she didn't like how I addressed this. MC pressed her a bit...and she was completely minimizing it...and thought I overreacted by telling the OMW. Finally, MC asked her if she was willing to answer/address my questions. W resonded "I guess."

So...I proceeded to tell her how hurt I was about her sharing our issues with another man. How she was reaching out to him, basically advertising her being available. She denied this....so I responded that I felt her minimizing what was happening was disrepectful to me. That...any one of the emails were not smoking guns...but her response to me confronting her ("We would never have gone through with it"...and "I guess I was just falling for his smooth talk")....proved to me that it was much more than "just friends." She proceeded to claim she never said these things. I told her...maybe not verbatim...but something along these lines. She denied again. So...I started quoting some of the exchanges......with each one, I could see it sinking into her that they were NOT just friends. But...she tried saying that he was friendly to lots of people...and was just a friendly person. So I asked her....'if this was SOOO innocent...why did you feel the need to hide in the bathroom to correspond with him?' MC pressed that point to her...and she acknowledged that she knew I would not approve of the conversations. MC pressed this more, asking her if she could acknowledge, then, that the emails might have (at a minimum) been pressing a boundary....and in a grey area. W actually acknowledged, at this point, that it probably was a grey area. So...I challenged her....'if I were developing a conversation with one of the mothers at the dance class...and YOU saw these same texts from ME.....can you honestly say you wouldn't have been upset??" She kind of deflated a bit...and finally agreed...she would have been upset. [BREAKTHROUGH??]

I honestly feel she struggled with that, because to admit that..means she had to admit she was ACTUALLY the type of person that could have started an innappropriate relationship with someone. I know that acknowledgement would really shake her self identity.

I then asked about the conversations in her car. She flat out refused to admit there is another phone...that she was just talking to herself. I simply find this hard to believe...but realized ...short of playing the recordings to her (and MC...which I'm not sure the MC would allow)....I wasn't going to get anywhere with that. Since I was never able to find definitive proof of this phone.....at least for now....I'll leave it be.

The whole conversation was pretty charged, but not confrontational. I was surprised. MC asked me what this acknowledgement meant to me. I told them, it meant we could deal with the why of this...and that I WASN'T crazy.

Anyway...after the session, I asked W if we could ask the sitter to stay longer, and we go out for a couple drinks and talk. She agreed....so we spent the next 3 hours over some food/drinks....talking. Mostly it was just light stuff. But it was nice. When we came home (around 8:00 pm), I started getting ready to watch a movie...expecting her to go to bed (normal routine.) I was really surprised that she joined me on the sofa....and we wound up watching movies until we both were falling asleep (around 12:30 AM.) It has been FOREVER since she has stayed up late with me. We really had a very nice time.

Today, she's been talking to me about things (projects) she wants to do around the house (all long-term, large projects.) We continue to be getting along today. It appears that us just talking about our issues might actually be making a big difference in our interactions.

I'm not really too sure what long-term conclusions I can make here. She just went to the grocery store...and I texted her that I love her. I don't really expect a response...but feel she needs to here that, now and then. 

We have another MC session in two weeks. I'm hoping we can keep the conversations going, and continue addressing the issues. I have hope right now....but still keeping my eyes open.

What do you guys think?


----------



## FourtyPlus

This sounds very promising and I'm happy for you guys (not even asking how the cat is doing)!


----------



## DailyGrind

I forgot to mention that when she decided to call it a night, and started heading upstairs to bed...she asked me if I was staying up. I asked her if she minded me coming up to bed with her. She said no....so...for the first time in YEARS...we actually went to bed together. Apparently I didn't snore much...cause she didn't push my out, in the middle of the night. I appears my weight loss (down to 190 lbs now) is making a big difference.


----------



## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> This sounds very promising and I'm happy for you guys (not even asking how the cat is doing)!


HA!


----------



## TDSC60

To paraphrase an old saying about "avoiding a trap";

The first step to solving a problem is to recognize or admit the existence of a problem.

Sounds like you may have taken the first steps up a high hill.

One step at a time. One step at a time. Eventually, you reach the top.


----------



## DailyGrind

TDSC60 said:


> To paraphrase an old saying about "avoiding a trap";
> 
> The first step to solving a problem is to recognize or admit the existence of a problem.
> 
> Sounds like you may have taken the first steps up a high hill.
> 
> One step at a time. One step at a time. Eventually, you reach the top.


Yeah...she still hasn't recognized my pain about it yet...or really expressed remorse....but....it IS a step.


----------



## TDSC60

DailyGrind said:


> Yeah...she still hasn't recognized my pain about it yet...or really expressed remorse....but....it IS a step.


Well........maybe her admitting that she would be upset if she had found emails between YOU and a Mom at the dance class was her, in a weird round about way, acknowledging your pain. Maybe...kind of.

A little progress is better than none at all.


----------



## FourtyPlus

DailyGrind said:


> I forgot to mention that when she decided to call it a night, and started heading upstairs to bed...she asked me if I was staying up. I asked her if she minded me coming up to bed with her. She said no....so...for the first time in YEARS...we actually went to bed together. Apparently I didn't snore much...cause she didn't push my out, in the middle of the night. I appears my weight loss (down to 190 lbs now) is making a big difference.


That is even better! 
Are you still using that mouth piece thing for the snoring? Last view weeks have been bad for me due to not much sleep but I'm working on daily affirmations that his snoring is not something to be bothered about but a noise that makes me feel safe (hubby snoring = hubby sleeping next to me = feeling safe). Sometimes I still want to yell at him "Shut up already!". It's hard but I believe it makes a big difference for him that we sleep in the same bed.


----------



## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> That is even better!
> Are you still using that mouth piece thing for the snoring? Last view weeks have been bad for me due to not much sleep but I'm working on daily affirmations that his snoring is not something to be bothered about but a noise that makes me feel safe (hubby snoring = hubby sleeping next to me = feeling safe). Sometimes I still want to yell at him "Shut up already!". It's hard but I believe it makes a big difference for him that we sleep in the same bed.


No...that mouthpiece thing hurts my jaw...and kept coming out. I gave up on it. I'll concentrate on just losing some more weight (I was at 205 three months ago.) Only problem with sleeping with her, last night....is...I SOOOO wanted to snuggle up to her. But...baby steps. The MC gave us the assignment of giving each other hugs every day. We haven't hugged in so long....I basically stopped giving her my got-home hugs, about 1 1/2 years ago...when I realized they were being returned with the one-arm buddy hug. So..the hugs are something big. I didn't want to push it with the snuggling. Besides....the woman turns me on so much....I figured my inadvertant "reaction" would be too obvious.


----------



## FourtyPlus

How bout just telling her "Ugh, what a day! A big old hug would really help...." to get the hugging thing started again slowly, maybe just with buddy hugs at first.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> I am proud of you for the text to her telling her you love her. I hope she responds.
> 
> You should have given her a hug/cuddled last night when you were in bed. She is I'm sure waiting for you to do it first.
> 
> She might be embarrassed or even be hard for her to be the first one to initiate the first hug.
> 
> You two will get there...


Yeah...well...she just got home. She didn't respond. But....baby steps.


----------



## Chaparral

I am quite happily surprised. For now do not push. This is much better than I thought it would be at this time. Baby steps. I like it. Even baby steps will get you somewhere. Don't rush it, but you can believe she has been so lonely.


----------



## DailyGrind

I'm actually seeing my wife of old, all of a sudden. Ravens playoff right now...and she made some chilli for the game...and some snacks.

Now...my ONLY flag, right now. She's showing some very real interest in the game. Wanting to see the plays...wondering what is going on. I asked her why the sudden interest. Her reply was that even the women at work are interested...and she doesn't want to feel left out. She's NEVER shown interest before....but ...we'll just see. I'll take it at face value. Right now...she is definitely MUCH more friendly. I just told her we should get our hug out of the way, for the day. She laughed and gave me a REAL hug...felt real good.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> I'm actually seeing my wife of old, all of a sudden. Ravens playoff right now...and she made some chilli for the game...and some snacks.
> 
> Now...my ONLY flag, right now. She's showing some very real interest in the game. Wanting to see the plays...wondering what is going on. I asked her why the sudden interest. Her reply was that even the women at work are interested...and she doesn't want to feel left out. She's NEVER shown interest before....but ...we'll just see. I'll take it at face value. Right now...she is definitely MUCH more friendly. I just told her we should get our hug out of the way, for the day. She laughed and gave me a REAL hug...felt real good.


Clap clap clap clap clap


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Maybe...just maybe, she hasn't seen it yet. :scratchhead:


Well....she saw it. It isn't unread on her phone. She just didn't respond. Ouch!


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Well....she saw it. It isn't unread on her phone. She just didn't respond. Ouch!


You two are doing great. Don't over analyze or you will screw up.


----------



## Chaparral

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Yes, Ouch...
> 
> But, what are you doing spying on her? How do you know it was read, unless you are still spying? Stop doing this to yourself....


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Get caught and you will have wiped out all your progress.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Get caught and you will have wiped out all your progress.


K.......tough crowd.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> We aren't that tough. We could have mentioned the cat... :smthumbup:


:2gunsfiring_v1: :cat:


----------



## FourtyPlus

DailyGrind said:


> I'm actually seeing my wife of old, all of a sudden. Ravens playoff right now...and she made some chilli for the game...and some snacks.
> 
> Now...my ONLY flag, right now. She's showing some very real interest in the game. Wanting to see the plays...wondering what is going on. I asked her why the sudden interest. Her reply was that even the women at work are interested...and she doesn't want to feel left out. She's NEVER shown interest before....but ...we'll just see. I'll take it at face value. Right now...she is definitely MUCH more friendly. I just told her we should get our hug out of the way, for the day. She laughed and gave me a REAL hug...felt real good.


:smthumbup:YAY:smthumbup:


----------



## FourtyPlus

DailyGrind said:


> :2gunsfiring_v1: :cat:


...and your next "baby step" will be: HUG THE CAT!!!


----------



## DailyGrind

And then she goes to bed, again...without saying goodnight. 
:wtf:


----------



## Chaparral

Old habits die hard.


----------



## warlock07

Or she caught you snooping?


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Or she caught you snooping?


nah...I just glanced at her phone to see if there was a pending text notification on the main screen. i didn't really snoop. And she was upstairs, at the time....giving DD2 a bath.

Chapparal may be right...just habit....I hope.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Maybe you should go tell her goodnight?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did. Also talked to her about us going to the healthclub during the week. She agreed. But still....we've talked (in MC) how it makes me feel completely unappreciated when she just goes to bed without the courtesy of a "goodnight."


----------



## FourtyPlus

DailyGrind said:


> I did. Also talked to her about us going to the healthclub during the week. She agreed. But still....we've talked (in MC) how it makes me feel completely unappreciated when she just goes to bed without the courtesy of a "goodnight."


It might just be a habit she needs to break. If you keep telling her "Good Night" every night she will get used to saying the return "Good Night" (and I'm assuming she did) and it becomes a habit.


----------



## working_together

FourtyPlus said:


> This sounds very promising and I'm happy for you guys (not even asking how the cat is doing)!


Yeah, I guess we need to let the cat thing go now lol

I agree, it does sound like it's going in the right direction. I'm wondering if she considers herself a proud person, that if she admits that she may have became weak and let herself have some feelings for someone, that it would somehow show you that she's not a good person. She is obviously suffering from some sort of hurt, and is afraid of expressing it sometimes.

When push comes to shove she does admit to some things. But is it because she's backed up against the wall, or is it that she really doesn't see things clearly for whatever reason?


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> :2gunsfiring_v1: :cat:


Whoa!!! I see the real you coming out now....:rofl:


----------



## working_together

I'm not so sure it's out of habit. For myself, prior to my affair, I knew my husband and should be giving each other more hugs, more kisses, cuddling in bed. I really did want to, but partly I didn't feel he wanted them or even wanted me. I know you tell her you want them, you tell her you love her, and she doesn't respond. We all know she's blocked somehow, and I think the MC will eventually get to the root of it, it sounds like a lot is being shared during sessions.

Waiting is a b*tch..

I always rooted for you....good luck


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> Yeah, I guess we need to let the cat thing go now lol
> 
> I agree, it does sound like it's going in the right direction. I'm wondering if she considers herself a proud person, that if she admits that she may have became weak and let herself have some feelings for someone, that it would somehow show you that she's not a good person. She is obviously suffering from some sort of hurt, and is afraid of expressing it sometimes.
> 
> When push comes to shove she does admit to some things. But is it because she's backed up against the wall, or is it that she really doesn't see things clearly for whatever reason?


I don't know. She definitely was proudly adament that she did nothing wrong, at first. Then I just started quoting the things being said....and each one seemed to bring her resolve down a peg. When I asked her if it was so innocent...why did she have to hide in the bathroom to email him...she acknowledged that she knew I wouldn't approve. The MC zoomed in on this a bit...and got her to admit that "Maybe" the communication was pushing a boundary...into a little grey area. THEN...when I asked if SHE could honestly say SHE wouldn't get upset if she caught me with the same emails to one of the dance moms......the light seemed to come on. She acknowledged she WOULD be upset. Once again, the MC zoomed in on this...and she acknowledged that the communication WAS inappropriate.

I agree with you though. I think she holds herself to a high standard. She resisted admitting this was anything but innocent, as otherwise...she would have to admit she was not pure (I guess.) I'm not pyschologist...but I DID stay in a Holiday Inn, last night. 

So...my question is this. There HAS been acknowledgement....but I'm afraid that now it is being laid to rest (at least in HER mind, and possibly the MC.) I have absolutely NO interest in harboring this against her....but do feel this is not enough. I'm not saying she HAS to say "I'm sorry".....but SOME level of remorse seems appropriate. Clearly, Saturday night...and yesterday....she was reaching out to me (in her own way)...being friendlier. I realize we were having problems BEFORE this happened. So, yes...I have my own heavy lifting to do. But...what should I be expecting from her? Just going with the flow doesn't seem enough. THAT will certainly not regain my trust.

I mean....most of Sunday...she's talking about all the things she wants to do with the house. We haven't talked like that in a long time....as...that would imply a future. So..THAT was nice. But..absent "I love you"s from her ....I sure as hell am NOT putting $30-40k into the house...and 5 yrs of labor/sweat...to modify this house into her dream. I'm willing to talk about it now...cause...frankly...it's fun. But....at some point, there HAS to be a line where she is either all in, or not. I'm not doing all this stuff if she isn't.

Confusion reigns!


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> Waiting is a b*tch.


Yes it is!!



working_together said:


> I always rooted for you....good luck.


Thanks!


----------



## FourtyPlus

It seems to me that she is willing to work on the marriage in general. Remodeling the house is talking future and that's a good thing. She would be talking about that if she saw no future for you guys. However, I also think that she had a lot of time to be alone with her thoughts (the years were things weren't that great between the two of you) and she might have accumulated all kinds of assumptions about you and your marriage that aren't true and probably vice versa. That's stuff she needs to come clean with and then there's the emailing and talking to this dance class guy. She needs to come clean about that too, she needs to understand what it was, what it wasn't and why it happened. All this is going to take time. The better you guys get along, the more likely she's going to be opening up to you. 

Why did you sleep at Holiday Inn? Did she kick you out????

Working, 100 bucks on a Happy Ending on this one!!!!!


----------



## FourtyPlus

Also something I have to throw in to this: Think long and hard before you invest any kind of money into your home other than what's needed to maintain it. You might be living in a pocket where values haven't depreciated that much but IN NO WAY are we ever going to see a housing market the way it was when any darn dog (please note that I said dog, not cat) could have gotten a loan. 

Market recovery is going to be slow and modest. It's not going to sky rocket again, so think long and hard before you put even $10k in improvements in your home (to maintain is okay just stay away from additions, added pools with waterfalls especially if most homes in your neighborhood don't have these features) unless you are 200% sure that you will be living in this house until the cows come home, whether she says I love you or not. It most areas it's not a good market to sell, if you can afford it it's always good and prudent to maintain but stay away from putting in a pool and expect to cash in on your pad in 3 years. Not happening! If you can't stay away from Home Depot, get new wall paint, change your throw pillows around, get new wall art, whatever, just don't add a another bathroom or a solar heated pool with beach entry and waterfall feature. You're not going to get even the slightest return on this.

This concludes today's real estate market update! LOL


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Holiday Inn, why???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was joking. Never saw the commercials where the guy is doing brain surgery (or something)....claiming his wonderful sleep at Holiday Inn allowed him to do something he wasn't really qualified to do?


----------



## JustaJerk

How's it going DG?

Any progress on the communication thing?


----------



## DailyGrind

JustaJerk said:


> How's it going DG?
> 
> Any progress on the communication thing?


I updated yesterday, with this post: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/33999-pretty-much-have-lost-58.html#post561081

Thanks.


----------



## working_together

So, when she reaches out to you in her own way, how do you react? do you just go at her pace, or can you step it up a notch, not so she notices too much. Then each time it may be more comfortable for her to reach out and accept you affection in return, and eventually back to where it was years ago.


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> So, when she reaches out to you in her own way, how do you react? do you just go at her pace, or can you step it up a notch, not so she notices too much. Then each time it may be more comfortable for her to reach out and accept you affection in return, and eventually back to where it was years ago.


Well...her self-prescribed assignment, from MC, was to "be a little nicer." At this point, I'm trying to figure out if she is just doing her assignment, or really reaching out. So...for now....I'm putting myself out there (remember, I've got the unresponded to "I love you"...floating out there.)


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Well...her self-prescribed assignment, from MC, was to "be a little nicer." At this point, I'm trying to figure out if she is just doing her assignment, or really reaching out. So...for now....I'm putting myself out there (remember, I've got the unresponded to "I love you"...floating out there.)


Does that mean she made being nicer her own goal not assigned by the counselor?

When was the last time she said I love you?

I'm worried that you are being impatient and you're going to blow it.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Does that mean she made being nicer her own goal not assigned by the counselor?
> 
> When was the last time she said I love you?
> 
> I'm worried that you are being impatient and you're going to blow it.


Counselor asked us to come up with something we each would do for the benefit of us. She came up with "being a little nicer."

I haven't heard "I love you" (or seen in email) since about April 2010.

I'm trying to not be impatient. I'm only venting to you guys.


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## Chaparral

Good, a while back I wondered/doubted if you would ever have the chance you have now. Be patient and kind. Its time to go all in and see how things turn out. So far so good but you seem to want to fix things in a hurry. That's what men are programed for. That's why we have such a hard time communicating with women on their level.


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## FourtyPlus

Yes, us women are sl.......oooo......wwwww....eeeee......rrrrr


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## Almostrecovered

DG's text history:


----------



## lordmayhem

FourtyPlus said:


> Yes, us women are sl.......oooo......wwwww....eeeee......rrrrr


Yeah, but memory like an elephant. They can tell you how you f*cked up 20 years ago, but suddenly have amnesia when you ask them what she said and talked about with the OM.


----------



## working_together

lordmayhem said:


> Yeah, but memory like an elephant. They can tell you how you f*cked up 20 years ago, but suddenly have amnesia when you ask them what she said and talked about with the OM.


The problem is that I did forget a lot of what I talked about with OM, it's that because of all the lies, he did not believe anything I said. 

We never talked about much, I was too busy focusing on getting my ego stroked. It was all about me.


----------



## warlock07

Meanwhile DG is reading this

1001 Ways to Torture a Cat - Funny and Stupid Ideas


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Meanwhile DG is reading this
> 
> 1001 Ways to Torture a Cat - Funny and Stupid Ideas


I am NOW! . 

I have an update for you guys, when I get home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FourtyPlus

lordmayhem said:


> Yeah, but memory like an elephant. They can tell you how you f*cked up 20 years ago, but suddenly have amnesia when you ask them what she said and talked about with the OM.


There are tons of instances where my husband says "Remember when you told me...." and I don't remember the conversation at all. The same happens to him btw. It's normal to not remember every single word of every conversation you ever had and OM conversations are probably no exception.


----------



## DailyGrind

Well...we are almost done our week, since the last MC. I had my first IC tonight. Not much happening there.....just some background stuff. W continues to be nicer....but not so much so that I can infer anything. Saturday, we have another MC...and then a Comedy Club night, with friends...in the evening. W actually arranged for the kids to stay at in-laws for the night. So, we actually have a kid-free evening.

Tuesday morning, I got up early and made her a bacon/egg/cheese english muffin for breakfast (something for the road.) She ACTUALLY emailed me a "thank you", later in the day. I do nice things for her all the time. This is the first time in a while that she has actually thanked me. Then we exchanged a number of joky emails, during the rest of the day. It was nice. Short-lived...as I got nothing yesterday or today. But...I know.....baby steps.

So...all in all...things are looking better...but...not so much that I can feel safe, if you know what I mean. We've been doing our daily hugs, mostly. But, even though she receives them...it seems more like a joke to her. It'll be interesting to see how the next MC goes.


----------



## working_together

warlock07 said:


> Meanwhile DG is reading this
> 
> 1001 Ways to Torture a Cat - Funny and Stupid Ideas


I even changed my avatar so people would forget the cat thing....sheesh

Honestly, I think you guys are all cat lovers down deep. Admit it now.


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> Well...we are almost done our week, since the last MC. I had my first IC tonight. Not much happening there.....just some background stuff. W continues to be nicer....but not so much so that I can infer anything. Saturday, we have another MC...and then a Comedy Club night, with friends...in the evening. W actually arranged for the kids to stay at in-laws for the night. So, we actually have a kid-free evening.
> 
> Tuesday morning, I got up early and made her a bacon/egg/cheese english muffin for breakfast (something for the road.) She ACTUALLY emailed me a "thank you", later in the day. I do nice things for her all the time. This is the first time in a while that she has actually thanked me. Then we exchanged a number of joky emails, during the rest of the day. It was nice. Short-lived...as I got nothing yesterday or today. But...I know.....baby steps.
> 
> So...all in all...things are looking better...but...not so much that I can feel safe, if you know what I mean. We've been doing our daily hugs, mostly. But, even though she receives them...it seems more like a joke to her. It'll be interesting to see how the next MC goes.


Is this something new...the thank you part? just wondering why she emailed that and couldn't tell you on the phone. Either way it's a step forward. 

have fun on your night out, and no kids....it'll do you guys some good for sure.


----------



## Almostrecovered

working_together said:


> I even changed my avatar so people would forget the cat thing....sheesh


They eat Guinea Pigs in South America


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> Is this something new...the thank you part? just wondering why she emailed that and couldn't tell you on the phone. Either way it's a step forward.
> 
> have fun on your night out, and no kids....it'll do you guys some good for sure.


It's new that she thanked me for anything. I haven't seen that in a while. 

As for email...we used to email each other throughout every day. But that was years ago. I always found her much more open, in conversation, through emails...than in person....oddly.

But there are still odd signs, as well. Last night, as usual, she went up to bed around 9:00. She DID say "I'm going upstairs"...but didn't say goodnight. I went up around 11:00 to turn off the hall lights (we leave on until the kids are in bed.) She's still up reading. HUH?? She HAS to go to bed early....being the reason she never stays up with me...and we never have together time. But she can be awake until 11:00 reading???!!!

You may recall...one of the reasons I started stopping off for bears, when I worked late...was because she refused to stay up for me. If I worked until 9:00....I knew she'd already be asleep before I got home at 10:00. Well....if she IS capable of being awake until 11:00....why wouldn't she stay up for me...and we could have avoided half our issues in the marriage? {grrrrr}

By the way IC wants me to see my doctor to get some meds. Even though I am in a MUCH better place, emotionally, right now.....she thinks I'm going to be in for a bit of a roller coaster (ANOTHER ONE???!!!) with all the stuff we are going to be dredging up (childhood...parent issues, abuse, etc.) LOL....she cautioned that one of the side effects is reduced libido. :rofl: I almost fell out of my chair, telling her that might be a GOOD thing. Haven't had it in two years....it'd be nice to get THAT frustration off the table.  W was wearing something, showing a wee bit of cleavage the other night. Just isn't fair!

Speaking of which....I'm not sure I mentioned this before.....

All our marriage, I used to encourage my wife to wear some more provacative things (nothing fluzzy....just provacative). She would NEVER show cleavage...always turtle necks or crew cut shirts. She REFUSED to wear heels. I once bought her this very nice backless shirt....she never wore cause "I don't have anything to wear it with." Ummm....it goes with any shorts, any jeans, any slacks.....REALLY?? I tried buying her nice boots once....she didn't want them....."boots make my feet sweat." Well...all of a sudden, few weeks back, I notice her wearing a shirt...showing some cleavage (a few times since.) Notice she has bought herself some 2" heels...and a new pair of calf-high boots.

As I said...there are good signs....but there are still ?'s in the air. IC asked me what my goals were from the therapy. I struggled with an answer, other than processing my childhood stuff....and its impact on my SELF. Thinking over night.....I think I'll amend that to be 'helping me deal with whatever I may have to deal with, in terms of my M; help me develop the inner strength and demeanor to make the right decisions with confidence and conviction; and allowing me to purposely move forward with life (in whatever form that may be.)


----------



## Chaparral

All women are wearing boots this year, alot all the way up to the knee. Cleavage wise she's a little late to the party. Thats just a modesty issue.


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## Lovebug501

DailyGrind said:


> But there are still odd signs, as well. Last night, as usual, she went up to bed around 9:00. She DID say "I'm going upstairs"...but didn't say goodnight. I went up around 11:00 to turn off the hall lights (we leave on until the kids are in bed.) She's still up reading. HUH?? She HAS to go to bed early....being the reason she never stays up with me...and we never have together time. But she can be awake until 11:00 reading???!!!


She didn't say "Goodnight" because she meant, I'm going upstairs... she was being honest with you. Why is that bad? She wanted to relax and read for a bit. I want to do that all the time. I have a list of marriage books and child rearing books, etc. that I want to read, but I never have time because H needs so much attention.

What was she reading?

Maybe the new clothes are a sign that she's trying to dress in a way that you appreciate. Baby steps... right? If dressing like that is something she has never been comfortable with, you've been pushing it for years (a "backless shirt" is a pretty far stretch from turtlenecks and crew necks... that typically means no bra), and now she's taking a couple of steps outside of her box to make you happy. I'd suggest complimenting her when she wears something that you like. Simple and sincere things, like... that shirt looks really good on you!

I'm very uncomfortable and self-conscious when I wear something that is even a little outside of my comfort zone... one wrong comment and I'll never wear it again... but a few small compliments could make it my new favorite piece.


----------



## DailyGrind

Lovebug501 said:


> She didn't say "Goodnight" because she meant, I'm going upstairs... she was being honest with you. Why is that bad?


It's not bad....it's just I've heard for years how she can't stay up, during the week..past 9:00....so there was no WE time....she just absolutely needs her sleep. And yet, since she joined the book club, in the Fall.....she seems to have NO problem staying up to read. Which is it...absolutely need the sleep...or just don't want to spend time with me?



Lovebug501 said:


> What was she reading?


Something from Book Club.



Lovebug501 said:


> Maybe the new clothes are a sign that she's trying to dress in a way that you appreciate.


Uhh...no...that's not it. She doesn't wear that when we go out (I've never even SEEN her in the heels). These clothes typically are off, and she's into her pj's by the time I get home. It's only cause I've been making the conscious effort to get home earlier, that I've even seen them.

It's just like her perfume. She puts it on EVERY day for work. She's put it on to go to her book club. I can't even remember the last time (if ever) she has put on perfume when we've gone out. I've brought it up, in the past....and she'll say "oh...I just forgot." Funny how she never forgets for work. 

It's the effort, I'm referring to. It's ALWAYS been, that WE get minimum effort from her. I'm hoping this is something that will change with MC. Because...if all we are accomplishing with MC, is to get back to the laise faire relationship we had BEFORE the coldness set in....that's not enough.


----------



## deejov

Forget the stuff she did or didn't do for you for years.
It's not important. What is important is what she is doing TODAY for you, and for the relationship. And what you are doing today.
Appreciate it. Enjoy it. Otherwise... it's just a battle of resentments.

Don't forget to notice it and comment on it if you like it. Don't overanlyze it. Just encourage it.


----------



## spudster

> Forget the stuff she did or didn't do for you for years.
> It's not important. What is important is what she is doing TODAY for you, and for the relationship. And what you are doing today.
> Appreciate it. Enjoy it. Otherwise... it's just a battle of resentments.
> 
> Don't forget to notice it and comment on it if you like it. Don't overanlyze it. Just encourage it.


I disagree. In fact, I disagree with most of the posters here. This will be my only post on this thread. I will say my peace and say no more...

I have read this thread from beginning to end and the only thought that pops into my head at the end of it is....WHY?

OK, I get that in his past the OP was negligent towards the wife and kiddies. Yes I get it. OK. But now he has to pay penance by enduring every day with a wife who shows absolutely no love or respect for him? Give me a break!

For two years she has withdrawn all love and effection towards her husband for some henous marital crimes that he has, frankly, never explained or enumerated in any of his posts. She has used him for security and nothing more. 

I see no practical reason why he could not be doing all the things he doing now with and for the kids as a single, divorced father.

I just don't get it. I just don't get any of this.

This woman is a selfish, immature, spoiled brat who is basking in the power she has over her husband. She feels entitled... entitled to demean him and refuse to show him any love or consideration whatsoever while he toils to make a home for her and his children. Then she grinds her heel harder in his face by unrepentently having an EA (ha!) with some scuzzbucket. 

Bah! Blech!! This is a bunch of crap. I may throw up on my keyboard! 

Grow some nads DG and ditch the b*tch. Find a woman who actually has a heart and soul, who will share herself fully with you, instead of wasting your life chained to this reef shark.


----------



## dymo

DailyGrind said:


> By the way IC wants me to see my doctor to get some meds. Even though I am in a MUCH better place, emotionally, right now.....she thinks I'm going to be in for a bit of a roller coaster


I think she might be right. 



spudster said:


> Grow some nads DG and ditch the b*tch.


That's... pretty much your solution to every marriage problem, isn't it? It's a valid solution for resolving pretty much any issue in a marriage, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. (Not literally, DG. )


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## working_together

Almostrecovered said:


> They eat Guinea Pigs in South America


You're such a sh*t disturber....:lol:


----------



## DailyGrind

dymo said:


> I think she might be right.
> 
> That's... pretty much your solution to every marriage problem, isn't it? It's a valid solution for resolving pretty much any issue in a marriage, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. (Not literally, DG. )



_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## working_together

spudster said:


> I disagree. In fact, I disagree with most of the posters here. This will be my only post on this thread. I will say my peace and say no more...
> 
> I have read this thread from beginning to end and the only thought that pops into my head at the end of it is....WHY?
> 
> OK, I get that in his past the OP was negligent towards the wife and kiddies. Yes I get it. OK. But now he has to pay penance by enduring every day with a wife who shows absolutely no love or respect for him? Give me a break!
> 
> For two years she has withdrawn all love and effection towards her husband for some henous marital crimes that he has, frankly, never explained or enumerated in any of his posts. She has used him for security and nothing more.
> 
> I see no practical reason why he could not be doing all the things he doing now with and for the kids as a single, divorced father.
> 
> I just don't get it. I just don't get any of this.
> 
> This woman is a selfish, immature, spoiled brat who is basking in the power she has over her husband. She feels entitled... entitled to demean him and refuse to show him any love or consideration whatsoever while he toils to make a home for her and his children. Then she grinds her heel harder in his face by unrepentently having an EA (ha!) with some scuzzbucket.
> 
> Bah! Blech!! This is a bunch of crap. I may throw up on my keyboard!
> 
> Grow some nads DG and ditch the b*tch. Find a woman who actually has a heart and soul, who will share herself fully with you, instead of wasting your life chained to this reef shark.


I agree with this to a point. What bothers me the most is that she knows CLEARLY what your needs are, what you want from the relationship. You've asked her to spend time with you at night, and then she goes upstairs and reads a book from the book club?? what about the marriage improvement books? didn't you ask her if she could read them?

I see she made the "baby steps", but how long will it take to get her fully commited to the relationship. I would bring this up in therapy. Express that you were pleased that she said thank you etc. but also call her on what she isn't doing, and why not? it's a safe place in therapy for her, ask the questions there. If you're willing to give it your all NOW, then she needs to put more effort as well, and maybe she should notice some of the effort you are putting in, has she said anything about that?

I have no idea about the change of clothes, boots etc. Seems to me she wants to feel sexy, but there's more to it, that does not involve an affair.


----------



## Spock

I have read the entire 63 pages on this thread so far simply because my wife thinks and behaves in some of the same ways that your wife does. I am by no means an expert in matters of the heart (see username) but I just wanted to wish you the best of luck in rebuilding your marriage and I wanted to commend you on your strength and determination to heal your marriage in spite of overwhelming odds.

Judging by the whole thread taken together, I don’t think your marriage is irreparably broken, as some have suggested here. I think she will be able to see, regardless of whether or not she acknowledges it, that you mean well and want and are willing to put in the effort to make things work between you. For an introverted, sensitive woman like she seems to be, this must be very encouraging for her. One thing I wanted to suggest was that may be, you can drop her a suggestion to pursue a similar forum as TAM herself as well somehow? I say this simply because it seems that your wife is more comfortable communicating with the written word that she is verbally.


----------



## spudster

> That's... pretty much your solution to every marriage problem, isn't it? It's a valid solution for resolving pretty much any issue in a marriage, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. (Not literally, DG. )


On the contrary, in fact I like hearing stories about spouses who work together to bring a marriage back from the brink. But I really do not feel that is the case with this woman. For whatever reason, she has gotten it into her head that she is in control of the R, and that things will go according to her timeline. 

I do not believe in coddling brats, and from what the OP has said about her, that is the behavior I see. IMHO (yeah right!) her sh*tty attitude and neglect of her husband is just another form of abuse. Oh she may come up with a thousand justifications for it, but it is still emotional, sexual and psychological abuse any way you slice it.

And by the way dymo, if you cannot tolerate opinions that veer accross your intricately cultivated field of ideas, then maybe you should be posting on Marriage Builders.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> It's not bad....it's just I've heard for years how she can't stay up, during the week..past 9:00....so there was no WE time....she just absolutely needs her sleep. And yet, since she joined the book club, in the Fall.....she seems to have NO problem staying up to read. Which is it...absolutely need the sleep...or just don't want to spend time with me?
> 
> 
> Something from Book Club.
> 
> 
> Uhh...no...that's not it. She doesn't wear that when we go out (I've never even SEEN her in the heels). These clothes typically are off, and she's into her pj's by the time I get home. It's only cause I've been making the conscious effort to get home earlier, that I've even seen them.
> 
> It's just like her perfume. She puts it on EVERY day for work. She's put it on to go to her book club. I can't even remember the last time (if ever) she has put on perfume when we've gone out. I've brought it up, in the past....and she'll say "oh...I just forgot." Funny how she never forgets for work.
> 
> It's the effort, I'm referring to. It's ALWAYS been, that WE get minimum effort from her. I'm hoping this is something that will change with MC. Because...if all we are accomplishing with MC, is to get back to the laise faire relationship we had BEFORE the coldness set in....that's not enough.


Thats true BUT, things went wrong on your honey moon. I wonder if she somehow blames you for a big part of that. Things have been wrong for a long time and you just seem to be in such a hurry to fix everything. It looks like it might take quite a while for you two to fix this. Do you think the MC is going to tell you something and everything is going to get better? 

Are you sure you are still interested in this marriage? I think the number one thing you need to remember is she does not trust you, right or wrong. You do not seem to be able to empathize with her at all. You have waited so long to get on this and now you are trying to look at it like a business problem that you can fix overnight.


----------



## Chaparral

spudster said:


> I disagree. In fact, I disagree with most of the posters here. This will be my only post on this thread. I will say my peace and say no more...


:scratchhead:


----------



## working_together

chapparal said:


> Thats true BUT, things went wrong on your honey moon. I wonder if she somehow blames you for a big part of that. Things have been wrong for a long time and you just seem to be in such a hurry to fix everything. It looks like it might take quite a while for you two to fix this. Do you think the MC is going to tell you something and everything is going to get better?
> 
> Are you sure you are still interested in this marriage? I think the number one thing you need to remember is she does not trust you, right or wrong. You do not seem to be able to empathize with her at all. You have waited so long to get on this and now you are trying to look at it like a business problem that you can fix overnight.


She probably resented the fact that while on their honeymoon she became sea sick when they were sailing and he didn't just say "oh hon, we should do something else", and she should have said "I'm so sick, I can't do this anymore". No one said anything.


----------



## Chaparral

working_together said:


> She probably resented the fact that while on their honeymoon she became sea sick when they were sailing and he didn't just say "oh hon, we should do something else", and she should have said "I'm so sick, I can't do this anymore". No one said anything.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Spouse are left too often to read the other spouses mind. I'm sure she didn't want to ruin the trip.


----------



## Chaparral

Yes, I wondered if you complemented on her nice looking blouse and told her how hot her boots looked. Hot might be to strong at this point, she might run like a dear and take them off.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Yes, I wondered if you complemented on her nice looking blouse and told her how hot her boots looked. Hot might be to strong at this point, she might run like a dear and take them off.


No. I didn't compliment her. Apparently (she acknowledged in MC today) my text to her, last weekend...that I loved her....she felt was over the top/too soon. So..even though we both admitted things seemed much lighter, this past week (and had a very good MC)....."I Love You" is too soon. MC reminded her that I never STOPPED loving her.

MC had us do 3 "wildest dreams for the relationship"..where we each had to write down 3 wonderous things we wanted for the relationship. Funny thing....both of us wrote (as #3) to buy a farmhouse somewhere, with lots of space, and land. I also mentioned traveling together, and she wrote finding common interests.

W acknowledged things seemed better, because we could air grievances in a safe arena (even though she really hasn't aired her grievances yet.) All in all...the session was very good. She admitted that she saw me trying harder, and being there...and it was nice. I got up early 2x this week, and made her breakfast for the road. She definitely appreciated that. This morning (Saturday) I got up before everyone, and made crepes for breakfast. Her two love languages are acts of service, and time together. Last night, we spent another late evening watching tv together. I'm trying to cater to her language. It appears to be making an impact.



chapparal said:


> You have waited so long to get on this and now you are trying to look at it like a business problem that you can fix overnight.


I don't think so. I'm trying to be patient. Remember, I've been dealing with her pulling away emotionally, for YEARS.....by burying my head in the sand. Her EA forced me to pull my head out. So...yes....inside I am extremely anxious to build this thing back up. And, yes...it is very hard to be patient. But....I think I am...at least on the outside.



Spock said:


> One thing I wanted to suggest was that may be, you can drop her a suggestion to pursue a similar forum as TAM herself as well somehow? I say this simply because it seems that your wife is more comfortable communicating with the written word that she is verbally.


I like this suggestion....I just don't really want her to stumble on MY thread, though.



Working_together said:


> what about the marriage improvement books? didn't you ask her if she could read them?


I didn't ask her....I noticed she signed up for a bunch of books at the library. But...I've not seen any sign that she's actually picked them up....none the less been reading any. MC wants us to read Getting the Love You Want. I already have it on my iPhone...but she doesn't want to read off that. She'll try to get it from the library...and has agreed for us to read it together.



deejov said:


> Forget the stuff she did or didn't do for you for years.
> It's not important. What is important is what she is doing TODAY for you, and for the relationship. And what you are doing today.
> Appreciate it. Enjoy it. Otherwise... it's just a battle of resentments.
> 
> Don't forget to notice it and comment on it if you like it. Don't overanlyze it. Just encourage it.


Agreed. Good advice....I'll try to follow it.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> How was date night?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Date night was nice. We went out, had a light dinner...and couple of drinks. Then joined two other couples for the comedy club. Unlike a couple months ago...we sat next to each other. If you were an outsider, you would never have guessed we were having problems. We had a great time.

She sore something that showed some cleavage...and REALLY caught my eye. Didn't wear perfume though...damn. 

It really is weird though....we have pretty much no physical interaction at all. And, it's been sooooo long....I feel like a 16 yo, on his first date. I know at some point, I HAVE to make a move...but really don't know when. Especially after she said (at MC) that my one text ('I love you') was "over the top", which is why she didn't respond. We went out to breakfast today...and then wound up stopping at the cell phone store, to replace her phone. You all may recall...it was her complaining about her blackberry that started my whole fall into hell. When I went onto our cellphone website to research upgrading her phone, is when I found the emails to OM (in October.) So...we got her an iPhone today. I have to admit...this really scares me. There is SOOO much more she can do with this phone...it kinda scares me. Then, the salesman has to be demonstrating the voice commands on this phone. And what does he up and say???....."Let's say you want to send a text to XXXXXX"....(AP name)...."you would just speak 'text XXXX'". I said "you just HAD to use THAT name, didn't you??!!" She jokingly told me to shut up. But...I have to admit...it scares me. I have an iPhone, myself. And I KNOW....if I wanted to do some clandestine activity....THIS is the phone to do it with. She's not the most technology inclined....but this phone sure makes it easy to do so.

Anyway...we seem to be getting along really well now. We are talking about future stuff. But...frankly....I worry. Without "I love yous" and physical contact.....it scares me to talk about future (trips, plans for the house, etc.). At some point all that stuff comes off the table if she isn't IN the relationship. I mean...I'm not taking my wife to Germany, if she's just a roommate. Make sense? For now...i'm just enjoying US. But I hesitate to commit to spending major money...for just a friend. Just wondering how long I stay in this limbo...even if it IS fun.


----------



## Chaparral

OTOH youcan use her phone as a GPS unit. Also,you can get deleted texts from the computer when it is synched ,no? This may be a good thing. If you get caught it could be a disaster.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> OTOH youcan use her phone as a GPS unit. Also,you can get deleted texts from the computer when it is synched ,no? This may be a good thing. If you get caught it could be a disaster.


I will definitely avoid this....unless some major red flag comes up.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> You just need to make the move on her. After what the counselor said about you never stopped loving her, I bet that made her think. What did she say after the counselor said that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe ...on the move.

As for the counselor....she kind of just shrugged, and said something like 'I guess."


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Maybe ...on the move.
> 
> As for the counselor....she kind of just shrugged, and said something like 'I guess."


Maybe on the move you should wait a little longer in the hopes she gives you a clear signal. Believe me I understand what you want to happen but everthing seems to be improving although fragile at this point.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Maybe on the move you should wait a little longer in the hopes she gives you a clear signal. Believe me I understand what you want to happen but everthing seems to be improving although fragile at this point.


That's exactly it....improving...but fragile.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Can't you just ask her to wear perfume for you when you guys go out? If you ask her point blank and straight to her face, she gonna have to respond in some way.


----------



## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> Can't you just ask her to wear perfume for you when you guys go out? If you ask her point blank and straight to her face, she gonna have to respond in some way.


Sure..I could. But it's just odd. She goes through the exact same process to go out, as she does to go to work. Her work routine involves perfume....not her date routine with me. In fact she puts more on, the nights she goes to book club. I wouldn't dream of not going the extra steps for grooming when I go out with her...above what I would do for work. Maybe I'm reading too much into it....but would hope my spouse would do the same....give me at least as much effort as for work. Too much to expect?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Have you read Synthetic's thread "Sent the wife this letter?" Just curious...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did....BUT....if she thinks my text "I Love You" was over the top....she SURE as heck will flee for the hills on those letters.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> I know, but still.
> 
> I don't know how you can stand it?
> 
> I would have to ask myself if it is even worth it. What a miserable life you both are living. Almost 2 years without any touch, is over the top.
> 
> I know I wasn't the best wife, but I would have not let him go that long with sex.
> 
> I would be so tired of walking on eggshells...not sure it would be worth it. You are still young and full of life, maybe it is time to find someone who will love you and not feel over the top when you tell her you "Love Her."


I know...right? The only reason I could "stand it" was because I focused my energies on work....and to be frank.....taking care of myself. But, I don't see her "taking care of HERSELF." She may be...but if not...I'm seriously wondering WHO is taking care of her emotional/physical needs. I mean...seriously....as low drive as she is.....is it REALLY possibly she could go 2 years without any kind of physical release?? I've gone this long, because I didn't have a choice. But...she did. :scratchhead:

On the flip side.....she DID send me an email today to thank me for making oatmeal/dried cranberry breakfast bars, last night. They were yummy. So...two weeks in a row...and two "thank you's." Wow...progress. It's not like I've not done these things in the past.....it's just that they seemed to have gone unnoticed. I KNOW there is progress here. But....it just seems like I'm doing all the heavy lifting. I mean....SHE's the one with the EA....SHE's the one who pulled away, without so much as a "by your leave." I'm doing a LOT of work here. I don't recall who's post it was (in the after work routine posts)...but I've totally adopted the "my work isn't done until the kids/wife go to bed" philosophy. And it IS being noticed. But...all I'm getting back is....well...she's decided NOT to be mean to me. Wow. Still...it's better than it has been, in two years. 

The problem is...now that my head is out of the sand....I am definite....it can't just be only as good as it was 6 years ago. It HAS to be better. I'm thinking I need to see movement toward BETTER by April. If I don't see it....I just don't fathom I can continue. There is another post, that MEM indicated what "Normal" is....and for the first time, I am adament...normal for me is NOT sex every 3-4 months. I fully understand, now, how demoralized/rejected I was feeling over the past 12 years. And I understand how that was affecting my self valuation. That is no longer an option. 

So...in short....I'm happy there is progress...and really in a short amount of time. But...she really needs to kick it up, herself.....or, just like the German offensive of 1944......this progress will grind to a halt, for lack of fuel.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> I know...right? The only reason I could "stand it" was because I focused my energies on work....and to be frank.....taking care of myself. But, I don't see her "taking care of HERSELF." She may be...but if not...I'm seriously wondering WHO is taking care of her emotional/physical needs. I mean...seriously....as low drive as she is.....is it REALLY possibly she could go 2 years without any kind of physical release?? I've gone this long, because I didn't have a choice. But...she did. :scratchhead:
> 
> On the flip side.....she DID send me an email today to thank me for making oatmeal/dried cranberry breakfast bars, last night. They were yummy. So...two weeks in a row...and two "thank you's." Wow...progress. It's not like I've not done these things in the past.....it's just that they seemed to have gone unnoticed. I KNOW there is progress here. But....it just seems like I'm doing all the heavy lifting. I mean....SHE's the one with the EA....SHE's the one who pulled away, without so much as a "by your leave." I'm doing a LOT of work here. I don't recall who's post it was (in the after work routine posts)...but I've totally adopted the "my work isn't done until the kids/wife go to bed" philosophy. And it IS being noticed. But...all I'm getting back is....well...she's decided NOT to be mean to me. Wow. Still...it's better than it has been, in two years.
> 
> The problem is...now that my head is out of the sand....I am definite....it can't just be only as good as it was 6 years ago. It HAS to be better. I'm thinking I need to see movement toward BETTER by April. If I don't see it....I just don't fathom I can continue. There is another post, that MEM indicated what "Normal" is....and for the first time, I am adament...normal for me is NOT sex every 3-4 months. I fully understand, now, how demoralized/rejected I was feeling over the past 12 years. And I understand how that was affecting my self valuation. That is no longer an option.
> 
> So...in short....I'm happy there is progress...and really in a short amount of time. But...she really needs to kick it up, herself.....or, just like the German offensive of 1944......this progress will grind to a halt, for lack of fuel.


Can I ask why you are doing these things for her? I mean the oatmeal bars and breakfast? She had the EA, yet is kind of coasting, just sitting back and letting you do the work? So why are you doing the work? Why do nice things for her, so you can get a nice email thank you? 

A cynic would say she is doling out just enough to get you to continue to do all the things she needs. Would they be wrong?


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> As far as the physical release, she is taking care of herself. I don't think she is having an affair and I too would have been mad at you about all the spying.


Well...let's be fair, though. The spying occured only AFTER she DID start an EA. If I hadn't spied.....she would (in all likelihood) be in full-blown PA, right now. So...yeah ....she could be mad about the spying....but it was exactly THAT which has even given us a chance. She needs to get over it. I didn't want to do it.....but, I'm not going to lose sleep over having done it. I was justified....and simply fighting for my marriage.


----------



## DailyGrind

Tall Average Guy said:


> Can I ask why you are doing these things for her? I mean the oatmeal bars and breakfast? She had the EA, yet is kind of coasting, just sitting back and letting you do the work? So why are you doing the work? Why do nice things for her, so you can get a nice email thank you?
> 
> A cynic would say she is doling out just enough to get you to continue to do all the things she needs. Would they be wrong?


Nope...they'd be right. The EA happened because we were not working on the marriage. So....now I am. I owned 50% of the marriage issues. So...I'm correcting that part. If she won't step up, and own her part...then it won't continue. As has been pointed out...ONE of us has to start something. We've been in a stalemate for too long. So...I'm trying to be the best husband/father/man...I can be. In the end....if that isn't enough...so be it. I'll walk away with head held high. But...just sitting back was just more of the same. We've been there. Don't get me wrong...I hear ya....and I am waiting for her to start stepping up. It HAS to happen. I'm not being a doormat....I'm being the man I should have been all along. I quit my online-gaming back in August. I've quit the porn. I'm home every night (except Tuesdays.....pool league night). I'm pulling my share (at least) of the home chores. In essence...I'm stepping up the the involvement I feel is right for the man/husband/father of the house. I'm just waiting for her to join me. But...i'm NOT closing the gap all the way to her side. I'm right here in the middle....waiting.


----------



## FourtyPlus

DailyGrind said:


> Sure..I could. But it's just odd. She goes through the exact same process to go out, as she does to go to work. Her work routine involves perfume....not her date routine with me. In fact she puts more on, the nights she goes to book club. I wouldn't dream of not going the extra steps for grooming when I go out with her...above what I would do for work. Maybe I'm reading too much into it....but would hope my spouse would do the same....give me at least as much effort as for work. Too much to expect?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So ask her already about the perfume and then you know why. It's obviously bothering you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LovesHerMan

I think your approach is good, DG. If things don't work out you will know that you gave it your best shot. TAG is worried about you being a doormat, but the difference is that you have limits, and you will not allow her to be disengaged forever.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> Nope...they'd be right. The EA happened because we were not working on the marriage. So....now I am. I owned 50% of the marriage issues. So...I'm correcting that part. If she won't step up, and own her part...then it won't continue. As has been pointed out...ONE of us has to start something. We've been in a stalemate for too long. So...I'm trying to be the best husband/father/man...I can be. In the end....if that isn't enough...so be it. I'll walk away with head held high. But...just sitting back was just more of the same. We've been there. Don't get me wrong...I hear ya....and I am waiting for her to start stepping up. It HAS to happen. I'm not being a doormat....I'm being the man I should have been all along. I quit my online-gaming back in August. I've quit the porn. I'm home every night (except Tuesdays.....pool league night). I'm pulling my share (at least) of the home chores. In essence...I'm stepping up the the involvement I feel is right for the man/husband/father of the house. I'm just waiting for her to join me. But...i'm NOT closing the gap all the way to her side. I'm right here in the middle....waiting.


That is good to hear. Do you have a time limit for this limbo?


----------



## Chaparral

I hate to bring the cat up again but could she be avoiding perfume around you because of your alergies? Another posibillity is she doesn't want to excite you. I don't see how it would hurt to ask, it could be something simple.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I hate to bring the cat up again but could she be avoiding perfume around you because of your alergies? Another posibillity is she doesn't want to excite you. I don't see how it would hurt to ask, it could be something simple.


I doubt it is cat related. Could be the excitement thing. But then....I've gone an EXTREME long time...and given up the replacement porn. Even the CAT is exciting me, these days. :rofl:


----------



## DailyGrind

Tall Average Guy said:


> That is good to hear. Do you have a time limit for this limbo?


Well...we are talking about a Disney trip around May. I would have to pay for it mid-late March. It is an expensive trip; which I would be forced to call off, if divorse were in the cards. So...I figure, if by Mid-March she is not pretty much all-in....my first salvo of disengaging would be to cancel the trip. I can't in good conscience spend that money, that may be needed for legal/second residence in the near term. If, come May...she isn't completely committed....I would have no choice. That would be six months after D-Day. Wouldn't that be enough?


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> That is pretty sad...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know.... ever try kissing a cat? ouch!


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Actually, I am a cat lover. I have 3 of them and kiss them all the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well....whatever you do....don't try slipping some tongue. They have fangs...and aren't afraid to use them.


----------



## Chaparral

OMG, I did open the cat box again. My apologies, we had a nasty mean cat that wouldn't die for fifteen years. But I do like cats and dogs.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Maybe you should start being nice to your cat so it won't use it fangs. You just might be needed that cat, if you don't get any action from your wife.
> 
> Can't believe we are talking about the cat again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Har har. I like my felines with a bit less....fur. 


Yeah....I went there...lol.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> I doubt it is cat related. Could be the excitement thing. But then....I've gone an EXTREME long time...and given up the replacement porn. Even the CAT is exciting me, these days. :rofl:


Must fight urge to post completely inappropriate jokes ...


----------



## FourtyPlus

DailyGrind said:


> I know.... ever try kissing a cat? ouch!


Glad it wasn't me who brought up the cat....again.

So.........., does the cat wear perfume?


----------



## JustaJerk

> Har har. I like my felines with a bit less....fur.
> 
> 
> Yeah....I went there...lol.


Nice.


----------



## DailyGrind

Soooo......I get home from work today....wife in a REALLY pissy mood. We all sit down to eat dinner....kids are a terror. Turns out they were a real terror when she picked them up.....and now she's in a horrible mood. She just sits there eating...not talking, grumpy as hell. Later, I'm cleaning up the dishes, and she's basically ignoring me. WTF did I do????

So...I ask her 'Why are you mad at ME?' Her: "I'm not....kids just pissed me off tonight"....and she basically stalks out. I'm thinking...so...kids piss you off...I ride in to the rescue....and....You get pissy with me?? And ignore ME?? Wow...way to erase all the positive feelings from the past week. {sigh} Sorry...just venting.


----------



## MEM2020

Just going to make a couple gentle observations here:

1. Kids were a terror all day - you get home she is quiet and tense. LEAVE HER ALONE. Meaning - as soon as you perceive she is in a bad place, just focus on the kids and give her time to be by herself. She is not obligated to force herself to be in a good mood just because you showed up. 
2. Until you decouple from HER emotional states - you are screwed. 


UNTIL you are willing to assert yourself - YOU ARE DOUBLY screwed. It goes like this:
Babe - I understand you aren't ready for me to say "ILY". I get that. It makes you feel bad and I won't do it again. 

That said, if a simple ILY causes you to react badly, we aren't going to DW. And we aren't going because I wouldn't enjoy a going on a luxury vacation with someone who clearly doesn't care for me. And since I am not going to enjoy it, we aren't going to go. 

Your reaction to her bad mood, and your behavior regarding DW are the same. EVEN when it is BAD for her and BAD for you, you are clingy. 

And nothing turns a woman off more than clingy. 



DailyGrind said:


> Well...we are talking about a Disney trip around May. I would have to pay for it mid-late March. It is an expensive trip; which I would be forced to call off, if divorse were in the cards. So...I figure, if by Mid-March she is not pretty much all-in....my first salvo of disengaging would be to cancel the trip. I can't in good conscience spend that money, that may be needed for legal/second residence in the near term. If, come May...she isn't completely committed....I would have no choice. That would be six months after D-Day. Wouldn't that be enough?


----------



## warlock07

Some people just want to be left off when they are having a bad day. She'll come around sooner or later. You must have observed this for quite sometime? Why are you so surprised now?


----------



## memyselfandi

There is just no excuse for an affair. You talk about things and work them out BEFORE things go that far. Obviously she has no intentions of cutting the OM out of her life so if I were you..I'd take action and get out of the marriage. Granted, it might hurt the kids at first, but the thing is, you and your wife will have constant arguements forever because there is no longer any trust..and THAT will hurt the kids more than you moving on with your life and finding someone that will make you sincerely happy.


----------



## Catherine602

Daily what MEM said. 
You were not using your empathy muscle. You got it. The kids were a nightmare, they put her in a bad place. 

Now what would a man who is thinking of his wife and not of himself do? Maybe "the kids got you down?, why don't you go take a brake after dinner and let me handle them." 

Start intervening with the kids get them under control. Don't just sit there like an observer. 

Look at it from her point of view - she needed a co-parent to back her up. What did she get? Another person demanding her attention.

You put yourself in with the kids. You sat there watching the scene and instead of helping her, you appealed to her to reassure you. You should be reassuring her that the misbehavior is temporary and you get them in line. That is acting like her hero not another needy child. 

I can just imagine this is difficult for you. It is hard for you to think strait but you have to. You have to step back and gather your senses. Man up first, do it for you, your kids and your wife. That's what she needs. She is asking you to be a man in control and possession of yourself. A man with a plan, who is not hanging on her every mood. A man who set the tone regardless of the day to day fluctuations. 

Stop letting the winds ruffle your sails. Stay ahead of it and control where you are headed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Catherine,
I like how you said it best. 

Favorite phrase I like to hear: "You are my rock". 

Being inclined towards engineering I far prefer to think of myself as a "real time emotional stabilization and navigation system". But "rock" will do. 



Catherine602 said:


> Daily what MEM said.
> You were not using your empathy muscle. You got it. The kids were a nightmare, they put her in a bad place.
> 
> Now what would a man who is thinking of his wife and not of himself do? Maybe "the kids got you down?, why don't you go take a brake after dinner and let me handle them."
> 
> Start intervening with the kids get them under control. Don't just sit there like an observer.
> 
> Look at it from her point of view - she needed a co-parent to back her up. What did she get? Another person demanding her attention.
> 
> You put yourself in with the kids. You sat there watching the scene and instead of helping her, you appealed to her to reassure you. You should be reassuring her that the misbehavior is temporary and you get them in line. That is acting like her hero not another needy child.
> 
> I can just imagine this is difficult for you. It is hard for you to think strait but you have to. You have to step back and gather your senses. Man up first, do it for you, your kids and your wife. That's what she needs. She is asking you to be a man in control and possession of yourself. A man with a plan, who is not hanging on her every mood. A man who set the tone regardless of the day to day fluctuations.
> 
> Stop letting the winds ruffle your sails. Stay ahead of it and control where you are headed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> Well....whatever you do....don't try slipping some tongue. They have fangs...and aren't afraid to use them.


especially on people who kick them out of bed...shame on you:lol:


----------



## working_together

MEM11363 said:


> Just going to make a couple gentle observations here:
> 
> 1. Kids were a terror all day - you get home she is quiet and tense. LEAVE HER ALONE. Meaning - as soon as you perceive she is in a bad place, just focus on the kids and give her time to be by herself. She is not obligated to force herself to be in a good mood just because you showed up.
> 2. Until you decouple from HER emotional states - you are screwed.
> 
> 
> UNTIL you are willing to assert yourself - YOU ARE DOUBLY screwed. It goes like this:
> Babe - I understand you aren't ready for me to say "ILY". I get that. It makes you feel bad and I won't do it again.
> 
> That said, if a simple ILY causes you to react badly, we aren't going to DW. And we aren't going because I wouldn't enjoy a going on a luxury vacation with someone who clearly doesn't care for me. And since I am not going to enjoy it, we aren't going to go.
> 
> Your reaction to her bad mood, and your behavior regarding DW are the same. EVEN when it is BAD for her and BAD for you, you are clingy.
> 
> And nothing turns a woman off more than clingy.


The thing is because he may want to talk about his "pissy" day and have her next to him, he kind of expects her to do the same. My husband and I are are the same, I need the space when I'm in a bad mood (and watch out), and he keeps following me around the house asking me what's wrong, I tell him what it is (usually kids not listening or acting out), and he has the need to keep talking about it, I just need to breath a bit. And I'll say "I don't want to talk about it right now", and he'll be like "no, you need to talk about it, you're angry" Him on the other hand, he needs to talk about every aspect of his "pissy" day, what the people said, how he felt. 

I think it's about respecting each others needs.


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> Soooo......I get home from work today....wife in a REALLY pissy mood. We all sit down to eat dinner....kids are a terror. Turns out they were a real terror when she picked them up.....and now she's in a horrible mood. She just sits there eating...not talking, grumpy as hell. Later, I'm cleaning up the dishes, and she's basically ignoring me. WTF did I do????
> 
> So...I ask her 'Why are you mad at ME?' Her: "I'm not....kids just pissed me off tonight"....and she basically stalks out. I'm thinking...so...kids piss you off...I ride in to the rescue....and....You get pissy with me?? And ignore ME?? Wow...way to erase all the positive feelings from the past week. {sigh} Sorry...just venting.


Stop rescuing her, let her feel what she needs to. Walk away, and let her come to you when she calms down. Ask her then if she's feeling better. Don't let it erase any positive feelings you have, she's in bad mood, she told you it's not about you.


----------



## Lovebug501

DailyGrind said:


> Sure..I could. But it's just odd. She goes through the exact same process to go out, as she does to go to work. Her work routine involves perfume....not her date routine with me. In fact she puts more on, the nights she goes to book club. I wouldn't dream of not going the extra steps for grooming when I go out with her...above what I would do for work. Maybe I'm reading too much into it....but would hope my spouse would do the same....give me at least as much effort as for work. Too much to expect?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG - I wear perfume frequently for work, full makeup, dress up, the whole nine yards. But on date nights and when around H, I don't do all that stuff [sometimes I don't even put on makeup]. Not because I want to give the people at work more effort, but b/c I believe my H loves me without all that. I don't NEED to wear perfume for him to tell me I smell good. I don't NEED to put forth all that effort for him to love me. I feel beautiful just being around him. 

I think its work to get ready for work. I don't want to work to get ready to spend time with my H. 

Now, if we are having a "fancy" date night where we both agree to get all dressed up, I shave legs, makeup, do my hair, perfume, jewelry... but really, that's just a show for other people b/c *he could care less if I'm in jeans and a t-shirt with no makeup or in full blown dress up mode - and that's one thing I love about him*.


----------



## working_together

Who cares about the perfume, it's taking over the cat issue now lol 

Believe it or not, women dress up, wear make up, perfume a lot of the times as competition with other women.

I think you're focusing on the little things she does, or doesn't do. You tend to overanylize, a little obsessive at times maybe. yes, you have good intentions, that counts for something, you're making a lot of changes, and she's noticing. But, I think you need to ask her what she really wants from you, what she needs for you to feel loved, appreciated, validated, etc. She obviously likes it when you cook, but what else does she like about you in the relationship? Ask her if you don't know. She likes space, that's obvious, she goes upstairs, reads, rests, whatever, she probably isn't (not always anyway) doing this to be mean to you, or ignore you, (she's different from you, and doesn't require as much together time, she takes it to the extreme I think, but it's done as a way to send a message, maybe she has told you, but you haven't heard her.

The affection and sex thing seems puzzling, two years is a long time. Is it possible set the mood where you can talk about it, the way it was before it stopped? what changed? Tell her you miss her, the way it was before, is there anything you can do to help her in this area? people get stuck in ruts, but two years is a long time. 

This all needs to be addressed where she doesn't feel smothered, or feel you are desperate to know these things, it's got to be very casual, matter of fact, but still caring.


Anyway, just my 2 cents.


----------



## FourtyPlus

DailyGrind said:


> Soooo......I get home from work today....wife in a REALLY pissy mood. We all sit down to eat dinner....kids are a terror. Turns out they were a real terror when she picked them up.....and now she's in a horrible mood. She just sits there eating...not talking, grumpy as hell. Later, I'm cleaning up the dishes, and she's basically ignoring me. WTF did I do????
> 
> So...I ask her 'Why are you mad at ME?' Her: "I'm not....kids just pissed me off tonight"....and she basically stalks out. I'm thinking...so...kids piss you off...I ride in to the rescue....and....You get pissy with me?? And ignore ME?? Wow...way to erase all the positive feelings from the past week. {sigh} Sorry...just venting.


It's probably not about you at all but about the kids acting up. Nice of you to clean up the dishes but that wasn't riding in to the rescue. Riding in to the rescue would have been putting your foot down with the kids and make them behave. That would have been the rescue. What you did (and again, cleaning up dishes IS nice) was riding in and asking her why she's mad at you. She might have ignored you because you didn't really rescue her.
If I see my daugther being disrespectful to my husband, she can count on hearing from me LOUD and CLEAR! Same vice versa.


----------



## karole

I agree with FP, quit being so childish, the last thing your wife needed to deal with was another child. Man up!


----------



## DailyGrind

MEM11363 said:


> Just going to make a couple gentle observations here:
> 
> 1. Kids were a terror all day - you get home she is quiet and tense.


She picked them up from daycare at 6:15. I was home by 7:15. She didn't deal with them all day....just one hour.


MEM11363 said:


> LEAVE HER ALONE. Meaning - as soon as you perceive she is in a bad place, just focus on the kids and give her time to be by herself. She is not obligated to force herself to be in a good mood just because you showed up.


I did. I came home, and took over the situation. Got the kids in line, and ready for bed. This is typical, in our house. I have to deal with them every morning.....hearding cats {yes...cats again}...to get them up, fed, dressed, and ready for school...then deliver them to daycare....and TRY to get to work on time. She picks them up, has them for one hour...and if they don't cooporate....sticks them on me, when I get home cause she "just can't deal with their behavior...and now has a headache/tired/whatever."



MEM11363 said:


> 2. Until you decouple from HER emotional states - you are screwed.


This is truly the problem. Her mood seems to set the tone for the entire household. In these cases...I truly don't know which came first...her bad mood, triggering the kids...or the other way around.



MEM11363 said:


> That said, if a simple ILY causes you to react badly, we aren't going to DW. And we aren't going because I wouldn't enjoy a going on a luxury vacation with someone who clearly doesn't care for me. And since I am not going to enjoy it, we aren't going to go.


I think this is a topic I'll discuss at our next MC (in two weeks), if things haven't drastically improved.



MEM11363 said:


> Your reaction to her bad mood, and your behavior regarding DW are the same. EVEN when it is BAD for her and BAD for you, you are clingy.
> 
> And nothing turns a woman off more than clingy.


No...I don't think I was clingy. In fact....yes, I admit her moods affect mine (I was in a pretty good mood, until I got home).....my historical reaction to her being in a *****y mood, is to pull back emotionally. I think that is partially how we got into our downward spiral. I'm TRYING to just maintain my existing mood, regardless what she is doing. It is this "decoupling" you mentioned...that I find difficult. But, no...I wasn't clingy at all.


@Catherine - No...I didn't just sit there and watch. I DID take charge; got the kids under control...and into bed.....while she slinked off to bed. I play that role all the time. You are right though....and I'm working on it.....I shouldn't let her mood affect me.


----------



## Chaparral

There is an old saying that goes something like " How momma goes, goes the household." LOL It looks like the kids were just an add on to a bad day. And a million things could cause that. When that happens people sometimes lash out to those that they care most about. You just have to give them space, be supportive, and help them decompress. I know many people can't stand many of the people they work with and it can get to them some days more than others. 

If you can, let her talk about it after she has had some time to relax. Just don't try to fix her problem. Just listen unless she asks you a question. At least thats what my wife wants.


----------



## working_together

FourtyPlus said:


> It's probably not about you at all but about the kids acting up. Nice of you to clean up the dishes but that wasn't riding in to the rescue. Riding in to the rescue would have been putting your foot down with the kids and make them behave. That would have been the rescue. What you did (and again, cleaning up dishes IS nice) was riding in and asking her why she's mad at you. She might have ignored you because you didn't really rescue her.
> If I see my daugther being disrespectful to my husband, she can count on hearing from me LOUD and CLEAR! Same vice versa.


I agree, it's about what SHE needs at that moment in time. Ask her, "how can I help you"?


----------



## working_together

Ok, so you cleared up what you did in terms of handling the situation.

The mood thing is a big issue in my house as well. If I'm in a bad mood, my husband is crushed, and I mean he really suffers from it. What does she do when you're in a bad mood??


----------



## warlock07

> I did. I came home, and took over the situation. Got the kids in line, and ready for bed. This is typical, in our house. I have to deal with them every morning.....hearding cats {yes...cats again}...to get them up, fed, dressed, and ready for school...then deliver them to daycare....and TRY to get to work on time. She picks them up, has them for one hour...and if they don't cooporate....sticks them on me, when I get home cause she "just can't deal with their behavior...and now has a headache/tired/whatever."


So what does she do exactly?


----------



## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> It's probably not about you at all but about the kids acting up. Nice of you to clean up the dishes but that wasn't riding in to the rescue. Riding in to the rescue would have been putting your foot down with the kids and make them behave. That would have been the rescue. What you did (and again, cleaning up dishes IS nice) was riding in and asking her why she's mad at you. She might have ignored you because you didn't really rescue her.
> If I see my daugther being disrespectful to my husband, she can count on hearing from me LOUD and CLEAR! Same vice versa.


No...I took care of the kids. The dishes are what I do every night. That just happens to be when she was back in the kitchen, and I asked her why she was mad at me.


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> Ok, so you cleared up what you did in terms of handling the situation.
> 
> The mood thing is a big issue in my house as well. If I'm in a bad mood, my husband is crushed, and I mean he really suffers from it. What does she do when you're in a bad mood??


Usually...when I'm in a bad mood...it only lasts 10-15 minutes....unless she is the cause of it. Then....I'm in a bad mood, until I get physical separation (she goes to bed, or something)...then I get more like me. OR...maybe kick the cat a couple times....that helps {kidding}.


----------



## FourtyPlus

That poor (scape)cat!

As for the moods - they happen, that's life and it's not fair! I know how to handle hubby when he comes home pissed and I "think" he knows not to speak to me if I'm pissy, most of which is about work or the damn dogs (I don't kick 'em but wish I could put perfume on them cause they stink), hardly ever about hubby. Either way, couldn't stand if anyone would talk to me when I'm pissed. I get over it pretty fast, most of the time by making fun of myself about being pissed.


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> So what does she do exactly?


Usually, by the time I get home...she's made dinner (and many times they have already eaten.) I pretty much take over the governance of the kids, when I arrive. She finishes stuff (usually kid-related...like looking at their take-home folders, or getting their stuff ready for the next day.) Once that is done...she typically heads to bed (usually around the same time I'm putting kids in bed). Many times...I put off eating until they get settled into bed...so I can oversee them for her. Meaning I'm not eating until like 9:00.

It's just the attitude. She has apparently been holding grudges against me for occasionally being "rude" to her. Not yelling, not being mean, not physical, not aggressive......"rude." Meaning....voice tone. And yet.....the history is striffe with her giving ME tone. I come home last night....I say hello...and get a gruff "HI!!!" It takes me an hour to just get around to figuring out who she is mad at. Her attitude is like she's ANGRY at me. And I'm trying to figure out why that is. Her sharp retorts, sitting angrily in her chair, not talking, not even looking at me.....I walk into this wonderign WTF did I do? I can't tell you the number of times she has barked at me, when dealing with the kids....and I ask her 'why are you yelling at me?' Only to hear..."the kids are driving me nuts!" To which I will respond 'okay....BUT....why are you yelling at ME??!!' But....whooaaaa there, hoss.....let me do the same to her....well....that's worthy of a complete emotional shut down, for at LEAST...ohh....let's say....ahhh....3 months, maybe?? Oh...but yeah.....she tells AP...SHE walks on eggshells.

Sorry...just more venting.


----------



## FourtyPlus

So she can't separate you from the kids when she's mad at the kids, right? You get yelled at even though she's not mad at you?

You guys aren't tuned into each other's way to communicate at all, not saying that's all your fault but seems like lots of work to be done there.

You guys don't eat dinner together? I understand you work long hours etc. and I'm just saying this because they call me the "It's Dinner Time Cryer" at my house but there is no way we're not eating dinner together. If my husband gets home late and we "had to eat" already because we were about to pass out, we sit at least down with him so he doesn't sit there all by himself. Maybe I'm a bit weird with this but dinner time is for talking about your day...with your kids....and listen to theirs. I actually think it's a good way to get rid of the day's frustrating events, share good stuff and you also get to stay up to date on what your kids are doing - in other words: communicate! When I was a kid my parents ate in separate rooms and I sat there all by myself - makes me sad and I simply don't want that for my husband and daugther - therefore I'm the Dinner Time General and it's 20 push ups for anyone that shows up late (kidding!)


----------



## DailyGrind

FourtyPlus said:


> So she can't separate you from the kids when she's mad at the kids, right? You get yelled at even though she's not mad at you?
> 
> You guys aren't tuned into each other's way to communicate at all, not saying that's all your fault but seems like lots of work to be done there.
> 
> You guys don't eat dinner together? I understand you work long hours etc. and I'm just saying this because they call me the "It's Dinner Time Cryer" at my house but there is no way we're not eating dinner together. If my husband gets home late and we "had to eat" already because we were about to pass out, we sit at least down with him so he doesn't sit there all by himself. Maybe I'm a bit weird with this but dinner time is for talking about your day...with your kids....and listen to theirs. I actually think it's a good way to get rid of the day's frustrating events, share good stuff and you also get to stay up to date on what your kids are doing - in other words: communicate! When I was a kid my parents ate in separate rooms and I sat there all by myself - makes me sad and I simply don't want that for my husband and daugther - therefore I'm the Dinner Time General and it's 20 push ups for anyone that shows up late (kidding!)


She gets up early (6:00...out the door by 7:00) to go to work early, so she can pick them up in the evening. I drop them off in the morning...used to be I was out the door around 8:15 (to drop them off at school). Now...I'm dropping them off at our athletic clubs before school care, around 7:45. I get to work around 9:00. I typicaly don't even try to leave before 6:00 pm (when rush hour is pretty much starting to die.) She's already home by 6:00. I have at least a 1 hr. commute...so walk through the door around 7:00. Yes...many times they have already eaten....but not always.


----------



## FourtyPlus

I'm not saying this is going to fix anything but I also think it's not going to hurt either: Try to have dinner together as a family as often as you can. Even if it's not possible, can they at least sit down with you (maybe eat their dessert) when you come home? People bond through sharing food. I'm sure you have seen families from other cultures sitting in a large circle around a pot of food - it's not so much about the food itself, it's about the socializing, the spending time together. Eating is one of our most basic needs, sharing this event with the ones you love creates bonds.
I understand that it might be hard for you to say "Honey, you guys can't eat dinner without me anymore..." because you don't want to piss her off - however, maybe if you mention how nice it is for you all to eat dinner together, maybe mention it to the kids and then they tell Mommy "Hey, Daddy isn't home yet, can we wait for him?"
I'm sorry if I'm going totally overboard with my Dinner Drill but I know for a fact that it has kept my family together through tough times, it has made a big difference in our relationship with our teen daugther and it has made us much stronger as a family.


----------



## karole

Does she require 9 or 10 hrs of sleep each night? Good grief. My teenager doesn't sleep that much most days. Why don't you suggest she stay up 1 hr after the kids are put to bed so you can have some quality time together each day. It certainly won't kill her to lose 1 hour of sleep.


----------



## DailyGrind

karole said:


> Does she require 9 or 10 hrs of sleep each night? Good grief. My teenager doesn't sleep that much most days. Why don't you suggest she stay up 1 hr after the kids are put to bed so you can have some quality time together each day. It certainly won't kill her to lose 1 hour of sleep.


This is part of her problem.....she doesn't sleep well. She's ALWAYS tired. Every morning, for 13 years...I've heard "I didn't sleep well last night. I have a headache." I mean it...EVERY MORNING. I have BEGGED her to see a doctor....but she won't. THIS...is why I stopped sleeping in our bed for two years, until about a month ago (I am back there now). THIS is a primary reason for the lack of sex. Apparently, she doesn't see it as a big enough problem.


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> Usually, by the time I get home...she's made dinner (and many times they have already eaten.) I pretty much take over the governance of the kids, when I arrive. She finishes stuff (usually kid-related...like looking at their take-home folders, or getting their stuff ready for the next day.) Once that is done...she typically heads to bed (usually around the same time I'm putting kids in bed). Many times...I put off eating until they get settled into bed...so I can oversee them for her. Meaning I'm not eating until like 9:00.
> 
> It's just the attitude. She has apparently been holding grudges against me for occasionally being "rude" to her. Not yelling, not being mean, not physical, not aggressive......"rude." Meaning....voice tone. And yet.....the history is striffe with her giving ME tone. I come home last night....I say hello...and get a gruff "HI!!!" It takes me an hour to just get around to figuring out who she is mad at. Her attitude is like she's ANGRY at me. And I'm trying to figure out why that is. Her sharp retorts, sitting angrily in her chair, not talking, not even looking at me.....I walk into this wonderign WTF did I do? I can't tell you the number of times she has barked at me, when dealing with the kids....and I ask her 'why are you yelling at me?' Only to hear..."the kids are driving me nuts!" To which I will respond 'okay....BUT....why are you yelling at ME??!!' But....whooaaaa there, hoss.....let me do the same to her....well....that's worthy of a complete emotional shut down, for at LEAST...ohh....let's say....ahhh....3 months, maybe?? Oh...but yeah.....she tells AP...SHE walks on eggshells.
> 
> Sorry...just more venting.


What's your "tone" she's always referring to? does she describe it? and why does she feel like she's "walking on eggshells?"


----------



## working_together

FourtyPlus said:


> So she can't separate you from the kids when she's mad at the kids, right? You get yelled at even though she's not mad at you?
> 
> You guys aren't tuned into each other's way to communicate at all, not saying that's all your fault but seems like lots of work to be done there.
> 
> You guys don't eat dinner together? I understand you work long hours etc. and I'm just saying this because they call me the "It's Dinner Time Cryer" at my house but there is no way we're not eating dinner together. If my husband gets home late and we "had to eat" already because we were about to pass out, we sit at least down with him so he doesn't sit there all by himself. Maybe I'm a bit weird with this but dinner time is for talking about your day...with your kids....and listen to theirs. I actually think it's a good way to get rid of the day's frustrating events, share good stuff and you also get to stay up to date on what your kids are doing - in other words: communicate! When I was a kid my parents ate in separate rooms and I sat there all by myself - makes me sad and I simply don't want that for my husband and daugther - therefore I'm the Dinner Time General and it's 20 push ups for anyone that shows up late (kidding!)


You don't have to have dinner all together every single night, but yeah, it's really important that there be at least 5 nights a week where you're all sitting together. Otherwise it becomes a habit.


----------



## working_together

FourtyPlus said:


> I'm not saying this is going to fix anything but I also think it's not going to hurt either: Try to have dinner together as a family as often as you can. Even if it's not possible, can they at least sit down with you (maybe eat their dessert) when you come home? People bond through sharing food. I'm sure you have seen families from other cultures sitting in a large circle around a pot of food - it's not so much about the food itself, it's about the socializing, the spending time together. Eating is one of our most basic needs, sharing this event with the ones you love creates bonds.
> I understand that it might be hard for you to say "Honey, you guys can't eat dinner without me anymore..." because you don't want to piss her off - however, maybe if you mention how nice it is for you all to eat dinner together, maybe mention it to the kids and then they tell Mommy "Hey, Daddy isn't home yet, can we wait for him?"
> I'm sorry if I'm going totally overboard with my Dinner Drill but I know for a fact that it has kept my family together through tough times, it has made a big difference in our relationship with our teen daugther and it has made us much stronger as a family.


I don't think you're going overboard on the dinner thing, there's lots of evidence that it is healthy for family bonding.


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> What's your "tone" she's always referring to? does she describe it? and why does she feel like she's "walking on eggshells?"


I described what she wrote about her issues with me here:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/534106-post602.html

I don't think it was a matter of me of constantly using "tone", or "nastiness"....as much as the fact I EVER did. The very few times I did....seem to hold sway over the thousands of other times when I was my natural loving/caring self.

By the way....look at my new avatar.


----------



## FourtyPlus

DailyGrind said:


> I described what she wrote about her issues with me here:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/534106-post602.html
> 
> I don't think it was a matter of me of constantly using "tone", or "nastiness"....as much as the fact I EVER did. The very few times I did....seem to hold sway over the thousands of other times when I was my natural loving/caring self.
> 
> By the way....look at my new avatar.


Shame on you!


----------



## Catherine602

No...I don't think I was clingy. In fact....yes, I admit her moods affect mine (I was in a pretty good mood, until I got home).....my historical reaction to her being in a *****y mood, is to pull back emotionally. I think that is partially how we got into our downward spiral. I'm TRYING to just maintain my existing mood, regardless what she is doing. It is this "decoupling" you mentioned...that I find difficult. But, no...I wasn't clingy at all.


@Catherine - No...I didn't just sit there and watch. I DID take charge; got the kids under control...and into bed.....while she slinked off to bed. I play that role all the time. You are right though....and I'm working on it.....I shouldn't let her mood affect me.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry - got it wrong. You are doing too much and you are too warm. 

Yes you are to clingy. Stop. I can't tell you how to stop and how to handle her disengagement. Be cool but sympathetic? Work out a list of her responsibilities. 

If she has problems with it IC and parenting skills classes. A parent should be able to handle kids. If not get professional help.

I think one of your problems is that you don't consider carefully before shooting down a suggestion. LISTEN and consider, someone may be right and may actually help. :whip:

:cat: another cat for you.


----------



## MEM2020

You cannot allow your spouse to lash out at you/take their bad mood out on you. If they are tense/edgy/quiet you give them space. But if they are being nasty - you just tell them firmly that you are their partner - not their punching bag. 

And you teach them how to apologize when they do that by suspending "normal" interaction until they do so. 




chapparal said:


> There is an old saying that goes something like " How momma goes, goes the household." LOL It looks like the kids were just an add on to a bad day. And a million things could cause that. When that happens people sometimes lash out to those that they care most about. You just have to give them space, be supportive, and help them decompress. I know many people can't stand many of the people they work with and it can get to them some days more than others.
> 
> If you can, let her talk about it after she has had some time to relax. Just don't try to fix her problem. Just listen unless she asks you a question. At least thats what my wife wants.


----------



## MEM2020

DG,
The BEST way to decouple is this. When she is in a bad place, you direct ALL your interactions at the kids. Be friendly and playful with them - EVEN if you need to discipline them, do it in an upbeat way. But IGNORE her. She will quickly notice that all your positive energy is going to everyone BUT her. 

And you may use this tactic whenever you wish. You can call a friend - and be happy/upbeat with them. And if she is in earshot - she will know what she is missing. 

Don't be angry/cold with her. Just flat/neutral/polite. She may try to provoke you. Just give her a puzzled look - like WTF is wrong with you - and don't speak. Then go on about your day. 






Catherine602 said:


> No...I don't think I was clingy. In fact....yes, I admit her moods affect mine (I was in a pretty good mood, until I got home).....my historical reaction to her being in a *****y mood, is to pull back emotionally. I think that is partially how we got into our downward spiral. I'm TRYING to just maintain my existing mood, regardless what she is doing. It is this "decoupling" you mentioned...that I find difficult. But, no...I wasn't clingy at all.
> 
> 
> @Catherine - No...I didn't just sit there and watch. I DID take charge; got the kids under control...and into bed.....while she slinked off to bed. I play that role all the time. You are right though....and I'm working on it.....I shouldn't let her mood affect me.


I'm sorry - got it wrong. You are doing too much and you are too warm. 

Yes you are to clingy. Stop. I can't tell you how to stop and how to handle her disengagement. Be cool but sympathetic? Work out a list of her responsibilities. 

If she has problems with it IC and parenting skills classes. A parent should be able to handle kids. If not get professional help.

I think one of your problems is that you don't consider carefully before shooting down a suggestion. LISTEN and consider, someone may be right and may actually help. :whip:

:cat:[/QUOTE]


----------



## working_together

Daily, what is on the road in your avatar? please tell me it's not a dead cat? :scratchhead:


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> I described what she wrote about her issues with me here:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/534106-post602.html
> 
> I don't think it was a matter of me of constantly using "tone", or "nastiness"....as much as the fact I EVER did. The very few times I did....seem to hold sway over the thousands of other times when I was my natural loving/caring self.
> 
> By the way....look at my new avatar.


Grrrrrrr, ok, don't worry, I've been coming up with some ideas of my own....you like dogs right?


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> Daily, what is on the road in your avatar? please tell me it's not a dead cat? :scratchhead:


Okay....."it's not a dead cat." 

It COULD be a really good actor cat....yeah....let's go with that.


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> Usually, by the time I get home...she's made dinner (and many times they have already eaten.) I pretty much take over the governance of the kids, when I arrive. She finishes stuff (usually kid-related...like looking at their take-home folders, or getting their stuff ready for the next day.) Once that is done...she typically heads to bed (usually around the same time I'm putting kids in bed). Many times...I put off eating until they get settled into bed...so I can oversee them for her. Meaning I'm not eating until like 9:00.
> 
> It's just the attitude. She has apparently been holding grudges against me for occasionally being "rude" to her. Not yelling, not being mean, not physical, not aggressive......"rude." Meaning....voice tone. And yet.....the history is striffe with her giving ME tone. I come home last night....I say hello...and get a gruff "HI!!!" It takes me an hour to just get around to figuring out who she is mad at. Her attitude is like she's ANGRY at me. And I'm trying to figure out why that is. Her sharp retorts, sitting angrily in her chair, not talking, not even looking at me.....I walk into this wonderign WTF did I do? I can't tell you the number of times she has barked at me, when dealing with the kids....and I ask her 'why are you yelling at me?' Only to hear..."the kids are driving me nuts!" To which I will respond 'okay....BUT....why are you yelling at ME??!!' But....whooaaaa there, hoss.....let me do the same to her....well....that's worthy of a complete emotional shut down, for at LEAST...ohh....let's say....ahhh....3 months, maybe?? Oh...but yeah.....she tells AP...SHE walks on eggshells.
> 
> Sorry...just more venting.


I'm going to make an observation...if someone were to say "why are you yelling at me" and the person responds that the kids are driving them crazy, and the person says again "why are you yelling at me", it's not helpful, it's patronizing, and somewhat demeaning. It's like you don't care about her feelings, it's about what you are feeling. Instead, say, "ok, I see you're angry, how about I finish the dishes (or whatever), and we'll talk about what's going on". No, she shouldn't take her anger on you, you're right, but the way you deal with it isn't all that healthy. Right there, she was opening up and telling you why she was angry, something you so desperately need from her, and you turned it around and made that statement, it discredits her feelings.

just saying...


----------



## DailyGrind

MEM11363 said:


> DG,
> The BEST way to decouple is this. When she is in a bad place, you direct ALL your interactions at the kids. Be friendly and playful with them - EVEN if you need to discipline them, do it in an upbeat way. But IGNORE her. She will quickly notice that all your positive energy is going to everyone BUT her.
> 
> And you may use this tactic whenever you wish. You can call a friend - and be happy/upbeat with them. And if she is in earshot - she will know what she is missing.
> 
> Don't be angry/cold with her. Just flat/neutral/polite. She may try to provoke you. Just give her a puzzled look - like WTF is wrong with you - and don't speak. Then go on about your day.


Good advice. I'll give it a try. Thanks!


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> Okay....."it's not a dead cat."
> 
> It COULD be a really good actor cat....yeah....let's go with that.


What is it then?


----------



## DailyGrind

Catherine602 said:


> I'm sorry - got it wrong. You are doing too much and you are too warm.
> 
> Yes you are to clingy. Stop. I can't tell you how to stop and how to handle her disengagement. Be cool but sympathetic? Work out a list of her responsibilities.
> 
> If she has problems with it IC and parenting skills classes. A parent should be able to handle kids. If not get professional help.
> 
> I think one of your problems is that you don't consider carefully before shooting down a suggestion. LISTEN and consider, someone may be right and may actually help. :whip:
> 
> :cat: another cat for you.


Catherine...I apologize if I came across as discounting any of your suggestions. I AM listening.....except about loving the cat. 
THANKS!


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> What is it then?


I can't say for sure...I didn't take the picture. Let's just agree that it is an actor cat, that someone paid to create the picture.


----------



## Beowulf

working_together said:


> Grrrrrrr, ok, don't worry, I've been coming up with some ideas of my own....you like dogs right?


I'm a dog person myself but my wife has a cat she adores. I keep telling her how much I dislike her cat but when she isn't around the cat crawls into my lap and purrs while I give her some love. Shhhh, don't tell my wife though.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> I'm a dog person myself but my wife has a cat she adores. I keep telling her how much I dislike her cat but when she isn't around the cat crawls into my lap and purrs while I give her some love. Shhhh, don't tell my wife though.
> 
> Now back to our regularly scheduled program.


I really don't hate the cat, as much as I let on. I don't particularly like it....but, in the past...I might have played with it, on ocassion. But...it's part of my character, to play like I despise it. So, I stick with it. I still would rather have a dog, though.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> I really don't hate the cat, as much as I let on. I don't particularly like it....but, in the past...I might have played with it, on ocassion. But...it's part of my character, to play like I despise it. So, I stick with it. I still would rather have a dog, though.


Maybe you should buy a dog. A really big dog. A really really big dog. A really really big dog that loves cats. A really really big dog that loves (to eat) cats.

Oh nevermind. :rofl:


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> I can't say for sure...I didn't take the picture. Let's just agree that it is an actor cat, that someone paid to create the picture.


Wishful thinking eh?


----------



## working_together

Beowulf said:


> Maybe you should buy a dog. A really big dog. A really really big dog. A really really big dog that loves cats. A really really big dog that loves (to eat) cats.
> 
> Oh nevermind. :rofl:


Why did Bare Naked Ladies come to mind?


----------



## Beowulf

working_together said:


> Why did Bare Naked Ladies come to mind?


I don't know. Is there something you're not telling us?

 :slap:


----------



## Tall Average Guy

working_together said:


> I'm going to make an observation...if someone were to say "why are you yelling at me" and the person responds that the kids are driving them crazy, and the person says again "why are you yelling at me", it's not helpful, it's patronizing, and somewhat demeaning. It's like you don't care about her feelings, it's about what you are feeling. Instead, say, "ok, I see you're angry, how about I finish the dishes (or whatever), and we'll talk about what's going on". No, she shouldn't take her anger on you, you're right, but the way you deal with it isn't all that healthy. Right there, she was opening up and telling you why she was angry, something you so desperately need from her, and you turned it around and made that statement, it discredits her feelings.
> 
> just saying...


I think I have to disagree with this. To put what others have said in a different way, you can not reward her bad behavior. She is an adult and should act like one. Yelling at DG because the kids are driving her crazy is not adult behavior and is not appropriate. Treating it like it is, or being willing to discuss the issues when she is treating him poorly will not discourage her from treating him poorly (in this case yelling at him).

My kids were driving me nuts awhile back. Something came up that my wife and I were working on that frustrated me, and I started to raise my voice at her. She pasued and gave me a look that said "do you want to rephrase that?" I thought about it, quickly apologized and said that between the kids and the situation, I am frustrated. I am not mad at you and am sorry I yelled. She quickly accepted my apology and than we talked through the issue to work on resolving it. Had I continued yelling, she would have rightly walked away. If I can't act like an adult to my spouse, I don't deserve to have her help me. I don't see why DG should do differently.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Beowulf said:


> I'm a dog person myself but my wife has a cat she adores. I keep telling her how much I dislike her cat but when she isn't around the cat crawls into my lap and purrs while I give her some love. Shhhh, don't tell my wife though.
> 
> Now back to our regularly scheduled program.


My husband is a dog person and he wasn't all too fond of cats. Nowadays he can't sleep without all his kitties gathered around him in the bed - he used to be mildly allergic but not anymore. I swear, it just went away.

As for getting a big, big dog: I have two large dogs and neither of them like cats. The dogs stay out of the cats' way, they won't look at them, they won't sniff them, they won't bother them at all - because the know better!

We love them all. Each of them has their own lovable personality and I guess that's why we put up with them.


----------



## working_together

Beowulf said:


> I don't know. Is there something you're not telling us?
> 
> :slap:


The group, Canadian of course


----------



## MEM2020

DG,
You sound like a decent guy - so take this in the spirit it is intended. An objective third party view of a very sad situation. 

Honestly I am a little confused. Help me out here. You got married when she was approx: 26 and you were 37. Both at peak health, youth and sexuality. 

You went on a 2 week honeymoon - and for 2 full weeks she rejected you sexually. From what you post, even your early years of marriage were bad in that regard despite having no kids and minimal financial issues. 

And when she talks about the marriage to the other man she says there wasn't much to begin with. Actually what she said to "him" about the beginning (that there wasn't much there) and how she behaved towards you back then are TOTALLY CONSISTENT. 

I am not questioning that you loved her. But lets be honest here. You go to a tropical paradise with a woman you describe as ABSOLUTELY STUNNING and she doesn't have sex with you for 2 weeks. How could that have felt - for YOU? 

Didn't that make you stop and wonder "Does she love me? Does she actually WANT to be married to me"? 

You talk about divorce and it is obvious you believe she will remarry quickly and will have a lot of options. And you are not quite so optimistic about what will happen to you. But the odd thing to me is this: Is having arm candy more important to you than being with someone who really loves you? 

If I had to summarize your 100 page thread:
You ALWAYS felt you married above yourself and were afraid to rock the boat even when she treated you VERY badly. From DAY 1 she felt she married beneath herself and was TOTALLY comfortable treating you accordingly. 

ALL the rest is simply the "details" of how that dynamic played out and continues to play out. 

BTW: Her desire to go to DW when you are so strapped for cash you can't "afford to divorce" is simply history repeating itself. The only difference between the DW trip and your honeymoon is that this time she is telling you IN ADVANCE that sex is off the table. 

I read this quote once, always wondered if it was mostly humor or mostly true. 

Belladonna: In English a deadly poison, in Spanish a beautiful woman. This demonstrates the striking similarities between the languages. 





DailyGrind said:


> Good advice. I'll give it a try. Thanks!


----------



## working_together

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think I have to disagree with this. To put what others have said in a different way, you can not reward her bad behavior. She is an adult and should act like one. Yelling at DG because the kids are driving her crazy is not adult behavior and is not appropriate. Treating it like it is, or being willing to discuss the issues when she is treating him poorly will not discourage her from treating him poorly (in this case yelling at him).
> 
> My kids were driving me nuts awhile back. Something came up that my wife and I were working on that frustrated me, and I started to raise my voice at her. She pasued and gave me a look that said "do you want to rephrase that?" I thought about it, quickly apologized and said that between the kids and the situation, I am frustrated. I am not mad at you and am sorry I yelled. She quickly accepted my apology and than we talked through the issue to work on resolving it. Had I continued yelling, she would have rightly walked away. If I can't act like an adult to my spouse, I don't deserve to have her help me. I don't see why DG should do differently.


I was just making a point that it's not good communication, it's not helpful that's all.

What I find strange about Daily's story (no, not a troll), is that he had a very passionate relationship with her prior to marriage. Besides getting married, what went wrong?


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> I was just making a point that it's not good communication, it's not helpful that's all.
> 
> What I find strange about Daily's story (no, not a troll), is that he had a very passionate relationship with her prior to marriage. Besides getting married, what went wrong?


Geez....I wish I knew. The first couple years were loving...but not much sex. I've stated a few times, in this thread...she just always had such a small window of opportunity...and always complaining of being tired/headache/stomach ache.

I had a conversation with my wife tonight about going to the doctor. I did some google searches and found that sleep apnea could explain a lot of her physical symptoms:

>Waking up with a very sore and/or dry throat 
>Occasionally waking up with a choking or gasping sensation 
>Sleepiness or lack of energy during the day 
>Morning headaches 
>Restless sleep 
>Irritability
>Forgetfulness, mood changes, and a decreased interest in sex 
>Recurrent awakenings or insomnia 

I've been dealing with her having these symptoms pretty much our entire relationship. She doesn't snore....so I never would have thought this an issue for her. ME...yes...cause I snore...but not her. But, I read tonight that up to 30% of sleep apnea sufferers don't snore. Since our youngest child, it has been worse. I honestly thought she might have depression (similar symptoms.) She very well might.....but I couldn't imagine her receiving that thought well from me. BUT....Sleep Apnea....if I can get her to go to the doctor for THAT.....at LEAST it gives the doctor a chance to diagnose her problems. I've begged her to go to the doctor so many times. She just won't.

Anyway...this might have bearing on the sex life...and to some degree our dynamic (hard to be upbeat when the spouse is constantly irritable. But...it doesn't explain her EA...or history rewrite. Trust me...I think I've laid out all my demons to you guys. I have not other explanations for how/why things went south.


----------



## DailyGrind

MEM11363 said:


> DG,
> You sound like a decent guy - so take this in the spirit it is intended. An objective third party view of a very sad situation.
> 
> Honestly I am a little confused. Help me out here. You got married when she was approx: 26 and you were 37. Both at peak health, youth and sexuality.
> 
> You went on a 2 week honeymoon - and for 2 full weeks she rejected you sexually. From what you post, even your early years of marriage were bad in that regard despite having no kids and minimal financial issues.
> 
> And when she talks about the marriage to the other man she says there wasn't much to begin with. Actually what she said to "him" about the beginning (that there wasn't much there) and how she behaved towards you back then are TOTALLY CONSISTENT.
> 
> I am not questioning that you loved her. But lets be honest here. You go to a tropical paradise with a woman you describe as ABSOLUTELY STUNNING and she doesn't have sex with you for 2 weeks. How could that have felt - for YOU?
> 
> Didn't that make you stop and wonder "Does she love me? Does she actually WANT to be married to me"?
> 
> You talk about divorce and it is obvious you believe she will remarry quickly and will have a lot of options. And you are not quite so optimistic about what will happen to you. But the odd thing to me is this: Is having arm candy more important to you than being with someone who really loves you?
> 
> If I had to summarize your 100 page thread:
> You ALWAYS felt you married above yourself and were afraid to rock the boat even when she treated you VERY badly. From DAY 1 she felt she married beneath herself and was TOTALLY comfortable treating you accordingly.
> 
> ALL the rest is simply the "details" of how that dynamic played out and continues to play out.
> 
> BTW: Her desire to go to DW when you are so strapped for cash you can't "afford to divorce" is simply history repeating itself. The only difference between the DW trip and your honeymoon is that this time she is telling you IN ADVANCE that sex is off the table.
> 
> I read this quote once, always wondered if it was mostly humor or mostly true.
> 
> Belladonna: In English a deadly poison, in Spanish a beautiful woman. This demonstrates the striking similarities between the languages.


To be honest...I can't argue with much of what you say here. I didn't really think I married above me. I thought we were a brilliant match. I guess i question it NOW...cause I'm 49, and she's only 38 (almost). As to questioning her love....I really didn't....during the early years. I questioned her being attracted to me. But, only over the past few years did I start questioning her love. There's definitely a lot to work through...but, as I've stated recently...I'm not giving it forever. As to the no sex during two week honeymoon.....yes....THAT hurt. And the subsequent 12 years of rejection have taken their toll.

As to DW...the only reason it is an option is because I'm due for a possible substantial bonus next month. With my promotion, last year...this is the first year for a bonus...and it could be pretty major. It will, at a minimum, get us completely back on our feet..financially. The extra cash, from the bonus...is either DW...or Legal fees. I've got until early April (I suppose) to determine which.


----------



## MEM2020

DG,
Stop making excuses for her. You are going to slowly drive yourself mad. 

Your W is healthy enough to go to the gym a few times a week. But not well enough for sex? Or to simply "be nice". 




DailyGrind said:


> Geez....I wish I knew. The first couple years were loving...but not much sex. I've stated a few times, in this thread...she just always had such a small window of opportunity...and always complaining of being tired/headache/stomach ache.
> 
> I had a conversation with my wife tonight about going to the doctor. I did some google searches and found that sleep apnea could explain a lot of her physical symptoms:
> 
> >Waking up with a very sore and/or dry throat
> >Occasionally waking up with a choking or gasping sensation
> >Sleepiness or lack of energy during the day
> >Morning headaches
> >Restless sleep
> >Irritability
> >Forgetfulness, mood changes, and a decreased interest in sex
> >Recurrent awakenings or insomnia
> 
> I've been dealing with her having these symptoms pretty much our entire relationship. She doesn't snore....so I never would have thought this an issue for her. ME...yes...cause I snore...but not her. But, I read tonight that up to 30% of sleep apnea sufferers don't snore. Since our youngest child, it has been worse. I honestly thought she might have depression (similar symptoms.) She very well might.....but I couldn't imagine her receiving that thought well from me. BUT....Sleep Apnea....if I can get her to go to the doctor for THAT.....at LEAST it gives the doctor a chance to diagnose her problems. I've begged her to go to the doctor so many times. She just won't.
> 
> Anyway...this might have bearing on the sex life...and to some degree our dynamic (hard to be upbeat when the spouse is constantly irritable. But...it doesn't explain her EA...or history rewrite. Trust me...I think I've laid out all my demons to you guys. I have not other explanations for how/why things went south.


----------



## DailyGrind

MEM11363 said:


> DG,
> Stop making excuses for her. You are going to slowly drive yourself mad.
> 
> Your W is healthy enough to go to the gym a few times a week. But not well enough for sex? Or to simply "be nice".


yeah...good point.


----------



## MEM2020

This isn't about DW/legal fees IMO. This is about you asserting a boundary you should have enforced on your honeymoon. 

A couple simple observations. In a marriage sex is some complex blend of lust and an emotional desire to please. If you have enough of one, you need very little of the other. If you have very little of either you have very little sex. 

IME the desire to please is more powerful, longer lasting and more pervasive than raw lust. And where there is a strong desire to please there is almost always a similar desire to avoid causing your partner distress. I would say my W has an "average level" of lust for me. Always has. But man she has a tremendouse emotional desire to please and avoid displeasing. As do I. And that makes for an amazing relationship. 

Let me contrast your honeymoon story with one of my own. Five years into our marriage we go to the beach for a week. Rented out a kickin beachfront house. End of the first day she deliberately procrastinates coming upstairs to bed. Hangs around with our guests until really late. She finally comes into the bedroom and I make a very blunt comment about making it clear I wanted to connect, watching her in a bathing suit all day was making me crazy etc. I wasn't just blunt, I was harsh - and yes my tone was out of line. 

And this is what happened. She said: "There is something you are doing which is inconsiderate and a big turn off and this is what it is....". I realized she was right, apologized profusely. Fixed the problem completely from that day forward. She saturated me with sex for the next 6 days. BTW - her comment wasn't an excuse. It was totally valid and I was embarrassed and contrite. I guess my point is - if that had happened on our honeymoon it would have gotten resolved the same way - with the same result. 

At some point you are going to realize something. Your W really doesn't have: lust, or a desire to please or a desire to avoid displeasing. Just a never ending list of complaints and demands that EVEN IF YOU SATISFY, will simply make you an acceptable servant. Not a loved, and valued life partner. 

Start saving money - you are almost 50. Throwing money at this problem isn't going to fix it. 



DailyGrind said:


> To be honest...I can't argue with much of what you say here. I didn't really think I married above me. I thought we were a brilliant match. I guess i question it NOW...cause I'm 49, and she's only 38 (almost). As to questioning her love....I really didn't....during the early years. I questioned her being attracted to me. But, only over the past few years did I start questioning her love. There's definitely a lot to work through...but, as I've stated recently...I'm not giving it forever. As to the no sex during two week honeymoon.....yes....THAT hurt. And the subsequent 12 years of rejection have taken their toll.
> 
> As to DW...the only reason it is an option is because I'm due for a possible substantial bonus next month. With my promotion, last year...this is the first year for a bonus...and it could be pretty major. It will, at a minimum, get us completely back on our feet..financially. The extra cash, from the bonus...is either DW...or Legal fees. I've got until early April (I suppose) to determine which.


----------



## MEM2020

*And one last thing*

Sex is some powerful stuff - but in a healthy marriage that "stuff" is bi-directional. So in the spirit of reciprocity I have told my W - and shown my W through my actions:

Baby, I always desire you. Always. That said, when you are tired, or sad or anxious. When you are tense or distracted or simply not feeling any desire to connect THAT way, it is my responsibility to be patient and understanding and supportive and loving. And to make sure you know that my love for you is much greater than my lust for you. 

And she gets that. And she is greatful. And so, in both striving to put each others needs first, more often than not our disagreements about sex are inverted. With me telling her to relax and connect with me tomorrow. And her insisting that we not wait another night. And sometimes I prevail and sometimes she uses a sharp tone and simply says "shut up and take a shower"....





DailyGrind said:


> yeah...good point.


----------



## sammy3

Who needs a man when you can hug a 180lb saint bernard ?

~sammy


----------



## golfergirl

I'd find your wife tiring. She effed up and you're doing the heavy lifting. Where is that fair? How does that solve problems? The issues you found on her list is bs. If that's all it takes for her to seek attention elsewhere, then you guys never stood a chance. You serve to her and the common courtesy of a thank you makes your day. If that's new - her saying thank you - shame on her.
Common courtesy isn't heavy lifting. It's her being semi-decent instead of cold beeyotch.
You deserve more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

:slap:Well...if this weren't my own life...I'd just have to laugh. I mentioned that I got my wife the iPhone, this past weekend...and how anxious it made me. Well....turns out for good reason...but not for the reason I thought.

I forgot COMPLETELY about this stupid iCloud photo backup thing. Wouldn't you know it....a few weeks back, when I was panicking about some unusual pages in her purse (texting address, and what I thought might be a bank account number)...and an AMEX gift certificate from a senior manager at her company (female.) Well...I took pictures of the stuff with my phone. yup....you see this coming don't you......her phone synced with my iCloud account...and those pictures were on her phone. She hasn't said anything to me about it....but...remember how Monday she seemed pissy? If figures....I STOPPED spying 3 weeks ago....but that time may have caught me. I can't imagine she didn't play with her new phone, over the past 3 days...and open the pictures up. There were only about 20 pictures on the photo stream...4 were from my spying. I only realized it when I opened that folder on MY phone...and saw the pictures. I knew her phone was setup to sync with the iCloud...and realized they would be on HER phone too. :slap:

I've deleted them now....but it would make sense, now, why she seems to be in a bad mood (remember I even asked her on Monday why she was mad at me) this whole week. Well...I guess she knows I know about the gift certificate. {sigh} two steps forward, three steps back. I just don't think I have the energy for this rollercoaster anymore.


----------



## DailyGrind

golfergirl said:


> I'd find your wife tiring. She effed up and you're doing the heavy lifting. Where is that fair? How does that solve problems? The issues you found on her list is bs. If that's all it takes for her to seek attention elsewhere, then you guys never stood a chance. You serve to her and the common courtesy of a thank you makes your day. If that's new - her saying thank you - shame on her.
> Common courtesy isn't heavy lifting. It's her being semi-decent instead of cold beeyotch.
> You deserve more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yes...it IS tiring. And making me into someone I don't want to be.


----------



## warlock07

So whats the plan? Are you going to talk to her about it?


----------



## dymo

Looks like an apology is in order.

May also be your opportunity to come clean on finding those notes she made. (Cat, etc.) Might allow you to talk those over.

Perhaps a full confession may be in order (maybe?) Come clean on the GPS?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Would the apology be better in front of the counsellor


----------



## golfergirl

warlock07 said:


> Would the apology be better in front of the counsellor


In the spirit of stopping spying and coming clean I would firstly confess. I also would do it in MC. 
Might be a chance for her to speak about what those numbers are. I believe MC might call her on her inability to discuss anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dymo

How long is it until the next MC? If it's too far away, you might not want to let that resentment build too much.


----------



## Beowulf

I had sleep apnea. I had most of those symptoms. I never lost a desire for sex. You're grasping at straws. Her health, her sexual availability, her attitude are HER responsibility.

And by the way, she wouldn't wake up gasping if you weren't trying to strangle her in your sleep.


----------



## DailyGrind

dymo said:


> How long is it until the next MC? If it's too far away, you might not want to let that resentment build too much.


Not until the 15th. 

I made her another egg/ham/cheese breakfast sandwich, this morning. As I was making it, she asks me "how many days a week are you making breakfast?"...but kind of in an irritated....wtf are you doing, kind of way. I'm thinking...'what? You aren't appreciating it?' She thanked me for it...but not exactly warmly.

I'm hoping my IC sessions give me the clear-mindedness to make the right decisions for this marriage.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Not until the 15th.
> 
> I made her another egg/ham/cheese breakfast sandwich, this morning. As I was making it, she asks me "how many days a week are you making breakfast?"...but kind of in an irritated....wtf are you doing, kind of way. I'm thinking...'what? You aren't appreciating it?' She thanked me for it...but not exactly warmly.
> 
> I'm hoping my IC sessions give me the clear-mindedness to make the right decisions for this marriage.


This sounds just like one of the scenes from the movie "Fireproof".


----------



## dymo

DailyGrind said:


> Not until the 15th.


Too long. You've already had a setback. Wait, and you risk undoing a lot the progress you've made.


----------



## working_together

All her health symptoms sound like stress related.


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> This sounds just like one of the scenes from the movie "Fireproof".


Is that worth seeing together?


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> All her health symptoms sound like stress related.


From kids, maybe? She started displaying these symptoms (in force) after second child. The headaches were there from the start...but not as much the restless sleep. Pre-kids...I don't know what the stress would be from. Over the past 6 years (youngest age) ...the first three...she was a sahm.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> Not until the 15th.
> 
> I made her another egg/ham/cheese breakfast sandwich, this morning. As I was making it, she asks me "how many days a week are you making breakfast?"...but kind of in an irritated....wtf are you doing, kind of way. I'm thinking...'what? You aren't appreciating it?' She thanked me for it...but not exactly warmly.
> 
> I'm hoping my IC sessions give me the clear-mindedness to make the right decisions for this marriage.


So why are you doing it? You are smothering her! Quit being so damn nice to her all the time. She ignores you, does not do the lifting, and is irritated that you make her breakfast. And your response is to ignore it? Hear what she is saying and stop making her breakfast. It is not working, so don't do it.


----------



## dymo

Tall Average Guy said:


> So why are you doing it? You are smothering her! Quit being so damn nice to her all the time. She ignores you, does not do the lifting, and is irritated that you make her breakfast. And your response is to ignore it? Hear what she is saying and stop making her breakfast. It is not working, so don't do it.


It was working until she got that Iphone.


----------



## NotLikeYou

DailyGrind said:


> Is that (Fireproof) worth seeing together?


Dailygrind, I think Fireproof would be the perfect movie for you to watch with your wife. I think you could really identify with Caleb, the husband.

Husbands, submit yourselves to your wives | Dalrock


----------



## Tall Average Guy

dymo said:


> It was working until she got that Iphone.


Was it? In the how many weeks he had been doing it, she sent two emails thanking him? As she was still ignoring him? That does not sound like it is working. It sounds like she is doing just enough to keep him running in circles to do nice things for her.

Now that she is upset, she yanks it away so that he needs to "earn" her treating him well again. Any bets on whether he actually reaches that goal. I don't see a marriage, I see Sisyphus (the king in Greek mythology that had to roll the boulder up hill, only to watch it roll down every time he reached the top).


----------



## MEM2020

Dymo,
You are completely wrong. She has been honest with him:
- I don't love you
- you are crowding me

Now it is his turn to be honest: I don't trust you, and have reason not to. We cannot continue to live pay heck to paycheck so DW is out.

And he also needs to give her breathing room.


OTE=dymo;574283]It was working until she got that Iphone.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dymo

MEM11363 said:


> Dymo,
> You are completely wrong. She has been honest with him:
> - I don't love you
> - you are crowding me
> 
> Now it is his turn to be honest: I don't trust you, and have reason not to. We cannot continue to live pay heck to paycheck so DW is out.
> 
> And he also needs to give her breathing room.
> 
> 
> OTE=dymo;574283]It was working until she got that Iphone.


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

There were signs of progress. Small, but years of resentment are not going to be erased in a matter of weeks. 

The points you raise (do you love me, crowding, lack of trust) are valid points, and should be raised at a future MC. 

The spying issue is something that can be nipped in the bud now. We know how her resentment can build in silence. In this instance she has reason. This is the one of the few times DG has had the chance to address it quickly instead of allowing her time to nurture these negative thoughts.


----------



## MEM2020

You are confusing an absence of love with the presence of resentment.

Note: if I don't love you, I act the way she has from day one of the honeymoon.

This is a classic case of one who loves and one who does not.

DG,
Prove me wrong. At MC get your W to list the things she likes/loves about you. And then the things she doesn't.

Being a good father doesn't count. That is always top of the list for the non loving spouse. Mainly an act of misdirection on their part.



QUOTE=dymo;574432]_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

There were signs of progress. Small, but years of resentment are not going to be erased in a matter of weeks. 

The points you raise (do you love me, crowding, lack of trust) are valid points, and should be raised at a future MC. 

The spying issue is something that can be nipped in the bud now. We know how her resentment can build in silence. In this instance she has reason. This is the one of the few times DG has had the chance to address it quickly instead of allowing her time to nurture these negative thoughts.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

dymo said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> There were signs of progress. Small, but years of resentment are not going to be erased in a matter of weeks.
> 
> The points you raise (do you love me, crowding, lack of trust) are valid points, and should be raised at a future MC.
> 
> The spying issue is something that can be nipped in the bud now. We know how her resentment can build in silence. In this instance she has reason. This is the one of the few times DG has had the chance to address it quickly instead of allowing her time to nurture these negative thoughts.


Why do her "resentments" trump the lack of trust that she has earned? She seems to want to avoid doing anything for DG, hiding behind not feeling it as well as this resentment to keep him working without giving him anything. She needs to do the lifting and recognize that she can't be resentful over something she caused. If she won't do that, what is the point of this whole thing.


----------



## dymo

MEM11363 said:


> You are confusing an absence of love with the presence of resentment.


The two can be related. Over enough time, the presence of resentment could lead to the absence of love.

I would agree with your theory if their relationship had been like this from the beginning. According to DG, they had an active sex life early on, which reduced after they became engaged, and was further reduced when they get married and eventually faded to nothing the more time they spent with each other. This is consistent with resentment building over time, depression or any number of other possibilities.

That doesn't mean your contention that she never loved him isn't worth exploring, but we can't jump to that conclusion.


----------



## dymo

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why do her "resentments" trump the lack of trust that she has earned? She seems to want to avoid doing anything for DG, hiding behind not feeling it as well as this resentment to keep him working without giving him anything. She needs to do the lifting and recognize that she can't be resentful over something she caused. If she won't do that, what is the point of this whole thing.


That's something for MC.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Is that worth seeing together?


My wife and I watched it together. It's a very Christian oriented movie so if you both aren't religious you may not enjoy the Jesus and God references. We thought it was very good and showed how easily things can get out of hand in a marriage and how difficult but rewarding reconciliation can be. The scene I spoke of is when the husband is trying to do nice things for the wife but she chalks it up to ulterior motives and blows him off entirely.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

dymo said:


> That's something for MC.


Then that needs to be consistently applied. She (and you) can't demand an apology for this spying, but then backpedal to MC when it is noted that she earned that behavior from DG.

She is very clearly communicating (through words and deed) that she does not love him. It is unfortunate, but true. DG is trying to earn that love through this acts, which she very clearly does not appreciate. If she does not appreciate it, and is not willing to do any lifting to work on their marriage, then how is this working? How does it make sense to apology for an action she earned and go back to waiting on her going to do anything but cause more smoothering and disrespect?


----------



## DailyGrind

Tall Average Guy said:


> Then that needs to be consistently applied. She (and you) can't demand an apology for this spying, but then backpedal to MC when it is noted that she earned that behavior from DG.
> 
> She is very clearly communicating (through words and deed) that she does not love him. It is unfortunate, but true. DG is trying to earn that love through this acts, which she very clearly does not appreciate. If she does not appreciate it, and is not willing to do any lifting to work on their marriage, then how is this working? How does it make sense to apology for an action she earned and go back to waiting on her going to do anything but cause more smoothering and disrespect?


This is what I struggle with (and thanks guys...for keeping the conversation going, while I was gone...lol). She has earned my distrust.....and has NOT been transparent. I did snoop...but have since decided it wasn't good for my health. By the way...I have an appointment with my doctor tomorrow....I guess I'll go the meds route. That beats the beer/cigarettes (I'm only a bar smoker...but lately it's been more)...I've been using to dull my emotions. But, certainly the snooping should be expected. I mean..she DID admit to inappropriate emails with this other guy. And there ARE other red flags. Regardless...the snooping stopped weeks ago.

But the short of it.....she apparently has fostered resentment toward me, as she feels I wasn't x-y-z towards her. So...now I'm trying to do x-y-z. But, it is hard...given her "over the top texts" comment as a result of my "I love you" text. She is NOT doing any heavy lifting...and I feel all the "changes" fall on ME. I will only do this for so long, before I feel disillusioned. She has been nicer, and more fun to be around. Which, of course, gets my hopes up. I DO love the girl. Anyway...I'm hoping the IC will help me with MY issues (which I'm sure revolve around abandonment issues, and maybe co-dependency)...so I can make the RIGHT decisions, outside of emotional responses. It's sad. I want so much more, and am willing to work for more. Emotionally, though...I'm starting from such a deficit...I'm straining to look up to what most people consider rock bottom. I have no idea how I got to this point. Death by a thousand cuts, I guess.


----------



## dymo

Tall Average Guy said:


> Then that needs to be consistently applied. She (and you) can't demand an apology for this spying, but then backpedal to MC when it is noted that she earned that behavior from DG.
> 
> She is very clearly communicating (through words and deed) that she does not love him. It is unfortunate, but true. DG is trying to earn that love through this acts, which she very clearly does not appreciate. If she does not appreciate it, and is not willing to do any lifting to work on their marriage, then how is this working? How does it make sense to apology for an action she earned and go back to waiting on her going to do anything but cause more smoothering and disrespect?


I don't see the need to apply any rigid consistency. It's a matter of using the right tool for the job. If MC is best way to move something forward, then you use MC. If you weigh your options and decide an alternative approach is better, then that's what you do.

Perhaps I should have instead said that it's something that needs to be discussed further.

As for the rest of your post, I agree with you. That is something that needs to be discussed further.


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> This is what I struggle with (and thanks guys...for keeping the conversation going, while I was gone...lol). She has earned my distrust.....and has NOT been transparent. I did snoop...but have since decided it wasn't good for my health. By the way...I have an appointment with my doctor tomorrow....I guess I'll go the meds route. That beats the beer/cigarettes (I'm only a bar smoker...but lately it's been more)...I've been using to dull my emotions. But, certainly the snooping should be expected. I mean..she DID admit to inappropriate emails with this other guy. And there ARE other red flags. Regardless...the snooping stopped weeks ago.
> 
> But the short of it.....she apparently has fostered resentment toward me, as she feels I wasn't x-y-z towards her. So...now I'm trying to do x-y-z. But, it is hard...given her "over the top texts" comment as a result of my "I love you" text. She is NOT doing any heavy lifting...and I feel all the "changes" fall on ME. I will only do this for so long, before I feel disillusioned. She has been nicer, and more fun to be around. Which, of course, gets my hopes up. I DO love the girl. Anyway...I'm hoping the IC will help me with MY issues (which I'm sure revolve around abandonment issues, and maybe co-dependency)...so I can make the RIGHT decisions, outside of emotional responses. It's sad. I want so much more, and am willing to work for more. Emotionally, though...I'm starting from such a deficit...I'm straining to look up to what most people consider rock bottom. I have no idea how I got to this point. Death by a thousand cuts, I guess.


Or death by smoking, quit that stuff out. I can say that now that I quit lol


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> This is what I struggle with (and thanks guys...for keeping the conversation going, while I was gone...lol). She has earned my distrust.....and has NOT been transparent. I did snoop...but have since decided it wasn't good for my health. By the way...I have an appointment with my doctor tomorrow....I guess I'll go the meds route. That beats the beer/cigarettes (I'm only a bar smoker...but lately it's been more)...I've been using to dull my emotions. But, certainly the snooping should be expected. I mean..she DID admit to inappropriate emails with this other guy. And there ARE other red flags. Regardless...the snooping stopped weeks ago.
> 
> But the short of it.....she apparently has fostered resentment toward me, as she feels I wasn't x-y-z towards her. So...now I'm trying to do x-y-z. But, it is hard...given her "over the top texts" comment as a result of my "I love you" text. She is NOT doing any heavy lifting...and I feel all the "changes" fall on ME. I will only do this for so long, before I feel disillusioned. She has been nicer, and more fun to be around. Which, of course, gets my hopes up. I DO love the girl. Anyway...I'm hoping the IC will help me with MY issues (which I'm sure revolve around abandonment issues, and maybe co-dependency)...so I can make the RIGHT decisions, outside of emotional responses. It's sad. I want so much more, and am willing to work for more. Emotionally, though...I'm starting from such a deficit...I'm straining to look up to what most people consider rock bottom. I have no idea how I got to this point. Death by a thousand cuts, I guess.


There are a few advantages to pulling back or turning your thermostat down:

1. Avoid smoothering her.
2. Give her a bit of space to do some lifting. If you do it all, or she perceives you are doing it all, she gets into the habit of not doing anything. No different from laundry. If you do it all, she has not reason to even try to do it. 
3. It helps your mental health. Right now, I see you doing things and then hoping that she will respond in the right way. Doing less of that lessens your pain abit. It also allows you to make changes for you, and not because you want something from her. This is a healthy way to change, and one that you can do to minimize the issue of ulterior motives.


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## MEM2020

Tall,
You are spot on here. 100 percent agree with your post. 

DG,
You believe that by these extra/optional acts of service - making breakfast - you are conveying "ILY". Instead what your W hears is "Do YOU love me"? This is why she is irritated. 





Tall Average Guy said:


> There are a few advantages to pulling back or turning your thermostat down:
> 
> 1. Avoid smoothering her.
> 2. Give her a bit of space to do some lifting. If you do it all, or she perceives you are doing it all, she gets into the habit of not doing anything. No different from laundry. If you do it all, she has not reason to even try to do it.
> 3. It helps your mental health. Right now, I see you doing things and then hoping that she will respond in the right way. Doing less of that lessens your pain abit. It also allows you to make changes for you, and not because you want something from her. This is a healthy way to change, and one that you can do to minimize the issue of ulterior motives.


----------



## DailyGrind

MEM11363 said:


> Tall,
> You are spot on here. 100 percent agree with your post.
> 
> DG,
> You believe that by these extra/optional acts of service - making breakfast - you are conveying "ILY". Instead what your W hears is "Do YOU love me"? This is why she is irritated.


I guess you may be right. I'm confused. I spent the past two years, virtually in 180 with her. She just got further away. So, I've reversed course and trying to Plan A with her.....and THAT pushes her away, too? I don't know what other options there are.


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> I guess you may be right. I'm confused. I spent the past two years, virtually in 180 with her. She just got further away. So, I've reversed course and trying to Plan A with her.....and THAT pushes her away, too? I don't know what other options there are.


I agree that you should lay off doing the breakfast thing, she really doesn't appreciate it, didn't she ask you "are you going to make it every day", that means basically she's not really caring if you do it or not, even if she does eat it. I know she said thank you for it, but that's it. Try the space thing, but not in the ignoring "rude" way, ask her to join you watching tv. You are so worried that she doesn't love you, I understand that, but she also knows this, and doesn't answer your ILY's. Don't say them too much, in passing maybe. Or, say to her "I love the way you smiled before", anyway, it sounds kind of cheesy, but do it the way you would be comfortable.

Just wanted to let you know my cat is drooling on me as I type....:lol:


----------



## dymo

working_together said:


> I agree that you should lay off doing the breakfast thing, she really doesn't appreciate it, didn't she ask you "are you going to make it every day", that means basically she's not really caring if you do it or not, even if she does eat it.


Before you take action like that, I think you should try to determine if she's pushing away because of these actions, or if she's pushing away because she's mad at you for the latest spying.


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## lordmayhem

If this is no longer about infidelity and about trying to work on the marriage, shouldn't this be moved to the R forum?


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## Chaparral

I, for one, am still wondering if she is/was in an affair. She isn't working very hard on the relationship though she has shown some improvment. She is still showing some major red flags. They may all be explained but............


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## dymo

And even if she's not having an affair, this still could just as easily end up in the divorce forum.

Perhaps DG might benefit from making some separate threads for specific topics, while keeping this thread updated for if people want to see the full picture.


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## DailyGrind

dymo said:


> And even if she's not having an affair, this still could just as easily end up in the divorce forum.
> 
> Perhaps DG might benefit from making some separate threads for specific topics, while keeping this thread updated for if people want to see the full picture.


Yeah...I guess I'll do this. I'll leave this one here, but post relationship posts in that forum.

I'm supposed to start some meds tomorrow. Have to wait until after the Super Bowl.....not supposed to drink much with these meds. I've been riding the rollercoaster all week.....prepare for D, hang in for R....D...R.....D.....R........{sigh}


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## MEM2020

A sanity check for you.

Tell your w you want to put the DW trip money into the children's college fund. Given the uncertainty in your M at is a very loving thing for both of you to do for the kids. 

It will also give you a gauge of just how "self" focused your wife is, even when the kids are involved.....

Frankly, I think your w is going to stay with you until you give up or she meets someone else. In the meantime, take care of the kids and their future. 





DailyGrind said:


> Yeah...I guess I'll do this. I'll leave this one here, but post relationship posts in that forum.
> 
> I'm supposed to start some meds tomorrow. Have to wait until after the Super Bowl.....not supposed to drink much with these meds. I've been riding the rollercoaster all week.....prepare for D, hang in for R....D...R.....D.....R........{sigh}


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf

DG, you have to decide if the status quo of the marriage is what you want. If not you have to make a decision about what you need going forward. If you are not happy with the current structure of the relationship you may have to simply come to grips with the fact that divorce is the way to proceed. It may be that when your wife sees that you are serious that you are no longer willing to tolerate the current situation she may decide to begin working on the marriage in order to save it. If she indeed is having an affair then putting divorce on the table may serve to break her out of the fog she is in. Either way it seems that you have exhausted all your options and it may be time to play the final card in the deck.


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## Chaparral

Beowulf said:


> DG, you have to decide if the status quo of the marriage is what you want. If not you have to make a decision about what you need going forward. If you are not happy with the current structure of the relationship you may have to simply come to grips with the fact that divorce is the way to proceed. It may be that when your wife sees that you are serious that you are no longer willing to tolerate the current situation she may decide to begin working on the marriage in order to save it. If she indeed is having an affair then putting divorce on the table may serve to break her out of the fog she is in. Either way it seems that you have exhausted all your options and it may be time to play the final card in the deck.


I basically agree but since they have started marriage counseling I think they should give it a chance. 

Does your wife know you are going to start taking meds?


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## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I basically agree but since they have started marriage counseling I think they should give it a chance.
> 
> Does your wife know you are going to start taking meds?


Yes...she knows. Also knows I am in IC. I also agree I should continue with MC until at least March. That was the deadline I set for myself to start seeing definite improvements.


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## DailyGrind

MEM11363 said:


> A sanity check for you.
> 
> Tell your w you want to put the DW trip money into the children's college fund. Given the uncertainty in your M at is a very loving thing for both of you to do for the kids.
> 
> It will also give you a gauge of just how "self" focused your wife is, even when the kids are involved.....
> 
> *Frankly, I think your w is going to stay with you until you give up or she meets someone else.* In the meantime, take care of the kids and their future.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The bolded above is quite likely true. I don't want to put the funds in a college fund. If we DO D....we'll need it for an apartment, and legal fees. But, I agree about putting DW on the shelf. I'll bring it up at the next MC.


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## Beowulf

The only vacation you should both be taking is MAYBE to Minnesota to one of Dr. Harley's marriagebuilder's seminars. Other than that...nope.


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## Lovebug501

DG: Didn't you say that your wife's LL was Quality Time?

Also - if you are anywhere near Texas - there is a free marriage conference going on in Southlake, Texas at Gateway Church, given by Jimmy and Karen Evans, who run Marriage Today. It's Friday and Saturday.

It's called Marriage on the Rock. Might be a good quick Valentine's weekend trip for you guys.


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## miscommunication

Lovebug501 said:


> DG: Didn't you say that your wife's LL was Quality Time?
> 
> Also - if you are anywhere near Texas - there is a free marriage conference going on in Southlake, Texas at Gateway Church, given by Jimmy and Karen Evans, who run Marriage Today. It's Friday and Saturday.
> 
> It's called Marriage on the Rock. Might be a good quick Valentine's weekend trip for you guys.


Interesting LoveBug. I'm attending the conference. Hmm maybe I'll see you there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar

How is it going Daily? How was Valentines Day?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

tennisstar said:


> How is it going Daily? How was Valentines Day?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for asking, tennisstar. I haven't posted for a while, cause I've been trying to figure out where things are. W is SOOOOO very hard to read. 

Mid, last week....I decided to go buy myself some new jeans. I've lost over 20 lbs, and most of my existing jeans are baggy. Plus....over the past few years, I've tended to buy the "relaxed-fit" jeans, anyway. So...I thought I'd try on some new straight cut. Damn...I'm down to a 34" waist....and the straight-cut jeans looked pretty good on me. Needless to say, I bought a couple pairs. Caught W checking me out in them, that night.  She asked me if I'd been working out regularly, cause it was obvious I've lost weight.

So...here's the weird part. Just prior to me discovering the EA...she was working out, like a fiend. Getting up, to get to the gym by 6:00....paid for 3-4 personal trainer sessions....definitely motivated. Right after D-day...the personal trainer sessions stopped. And then a couple weeks later.....no more working out at all. She hasn't been to the gym (by herself) for nearly 3 months. She HAS gone twice with me....but....definitely not motivated, any more. Since D-Day....I've lost over 20 lbs. She's gained 5, according to her.

Last weekend, I took her into the city....to Little Italy. We went to a nice Italian restaurant, then went to a bar for drinks. Later, we visited a nice Italian pastry shop, for some cannoli, and other treats to take home. We had a very nice time. Nothing happened, in the physical department...but we DID have fun. The next day, I texted her (while she was shopping) that I was thinking about her, and had a nice time. Once again...she didn't answer....until Tuesday (Valentines Day.) I had sent her cholcolate-covered strawberries for Valentines Day. She finally saw my Sunday text (she says) and responded she too had a good time. Then she thanked me for the treats. I also had gotten up early, to make her a breakfast sandwhich. We didn't see each other Valentines night...as I have pool league on Tuesdays. I took her, and our girls to dinner last night. Unfortunately, DD2 was REALLY acting up...so it wasn't all that much fun.

Yesterday afternoon we had our most recent MC. I'm really wondering if this is doing anything. I brought up that I though we should bring out some of W's issues with me (the things that she has been harboring.) W agreed to do so...but then all she would discuss was that she really hates when I discuss stressful work things with her. (understand that this MIGHT be only a couple times a month.) I'm like....REALLY???!!!! THIS is one of you top ten issues with me? THIS is what made you pull away from me? THIS is something we need to really work on?? I couldn't believe the MC latched onto THIS..and spent 20 minutes following this red herring. So...we never really talked about anything substantial. W did acknowledge she was depressed...but MC only casually tossed out that she might think about seeing an IC....and then dropped it. I would think THAT would be worth pursuing, a whole lot more than stressful work discussions. I brought up that I felt things were better...but that I felt I was doing all the work. THAT might have been pursued...but wasn't. And...when MC asked her to tell me where SHE was with the relationship. She just clammed up again. Couldn't say. W did bring up that things seemed better, but there was a WHOLE LOT more work to go. 

So...here's the thing. We've had a handful of very nice dates, over the past 5 weeks. I send her a nice Valentines. She stops, on the way home, to get something for the kids. So...when I get home.....do you think she'd have gotten ME something? I mean...even if she forgot, or wasn't sure what to do beforehand....once she got something from me....wouldn't you think she'd at least get me SOME token? Nope...nothing. It is so clear....her taker is in charge. And I'm really fighting to keep mine at bay. But...all this lack of ANYTHING from her, is really making it hard. In MC..we are supposed to give each other acknowledgements. She struggles.....REALLY? Took you out on the town, send you a nice Valentines, keep making you nice breakfasts for your commute to work, etc....and you STRUGGLE? I struggle...cause.....frankly....she isn't doin ANYTHING. She does the grocery shopping.....so ......I keep acknowledging that. {sigh}


----------



## dymo

I take it the Icloud stuff was never discussed? In MC or otherwise?

I wonder if, in her mind, the "ask about work" issue in MC was brought to he forefront by seeing the pictures you took from her lunch bag. Not the most straightforward of links, but maybe.

I know I previously said you should apologise, but if you done feel you owe one, then you shouldn't. Still, it needs to be discussed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

dymo said:


> I take it the Icloud stuff was never discussed? In MC or otherwise?
> 
> I wonder if, in her mind, the "ask about work" issue in MC was brought to he forefront by seeing the pictures you took from her lunch bag. Not the most straightforward of links, but maybe.
> 
> I know I previously said you should apologise, but if you done feel you owe one, then you shouldn't. Still, it needs to be discussed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No..it wasn't discussed. The thing is, the actual snooping occured early January. The iPhone came around the end of January. I had already sworn off the snooping. But....unfortunately, the iCloud loads up the photos taken over the past month....so it snagged those snooping picks. I'll apologize, some day. Maybe even the same day she apologizes for her EA.


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## tennisstar

Has Disney World been discussed again?

She just doesn't seem to be making any effort. Sounds like the working out was for the OM not you (since she has stopped). Do you think you should ask her again if she wants to be married? She just really isn't trying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dymo

DailyGrind said:


> No..it wasn't discussed. The thing is, the actual snooping occured early January. The iPhone came around the end of January. I had already sworn off the snooping. But....unfortunately, the iCloud loads up the photos taken over the past month....so it snagged those snooping picks. I'll apologize, some day. Maybe even the same day she apologizes for her EA.


In the meantime, it becomes a fresh resentment growing within her. 

As I said, if you don't want to apologize at this point, don't. But it still needs to be discussed. Maybe in MC it could also be used as a jumping off point to further discuss the EA.


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## Tall Average Guy

Can I ask why you are still making all of this effort? She clearly does not care if you do, so why not back off.

I still think you are smothering her and giving her an excuse not to do anything. I also think there is too much "implied contract" in your expectations. You do nice things for her and expect her to do the same for you. When she does not, you get upset. Would not be surprised if she sees right through this (even if at subconscious level) and it is keeping her away. Do less for her, and when you do it, expect absolutely nothing in return.


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## FourtyPlus

As much as I was dying to see a Happy Ending to this, I think you're just spinning your wheels. No Valentine's for you is just down right crappy, I'm sorry but it just is. She isn't doing anything at all. 

It sounds like the MC dictates what is being talked about, do you have no say in this? If you want to talk more about doing all the work while she does nothing, tell the MC that's what you want to talk about the next time, period. You hired the MC, not the other way around.


----------



## cabin fever

just my .02
1. on the sleep apnea.......GET IT FIXED. I speak from experience. I had my tonsils out, my adnoids out, and my uvula clipped. It was NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE, for me, and my wife. I won't lie, its pure Hell, and pain for about a week, but i would do it again in a heart beat. 

2. It seems to me, you are trying to hard! When I found out my wife was having an affair I was the soft, pushover guy. I hate myself now for that. It took me a while, but I finally embraced we were getting divorced. I accepted it, and decided i was done trying to fix something if she didn't want it. After that It was like a HUGE weight was lifted off my shoulders. I started having fun (without her) I included my son in almost everything I did. She was finally ALONE, and had nothing to do but think! The fact that she saw me without her, having a good time somehow made her relize what she had done, and what she was missing. 3 weeks later she cut off all contact with OM, did a complete 180, and started putting an honest effort into making our marriage work. 

Things are much better then they have been in a long time. I still have triggers, but I'm working hard at getting past them. 

Good luck, but remember at the end of the day, you need to focus on yourself at some point.


----------



## Beowulf

cabin fever said:


> just my .02
> 1. on the sleep apnea.......GET IT FIXED. I speak from experience. I had my tonsils out, my adnoids out, and my uvula clipped. It was NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE, for me, and my wife. I won't lie, its pure Hell, and pain for about a week, but i would do it again in a heart beat.
> 
> 2. It seems to me, you are trying to hard! When I found out my wife was having an affair I was the soft, pushover guy. I hate myself now for that. It took me a while, but I finally embraced we were getting divorced. I accepted it, and decided i was done trying to fix something if she didn't want it. After that It was like a HUGE weight was lifted off my shoulders. I started having fun (without her) I included my son in almost everything I did. She was finally ALONE, and had nothing to do but think! The fact that she saw me without her, having a good time somehow made her relize what she had done, and what she was missing. 3 weeks later she cut off all contact with OM, did a complete 180, and started putting an honest effort into making our marriage work.
> 
> Things are much better then they have been in a long time. I still have triggers, but I'm working hard at getting past them.
> 
> Good luck, but remember at the end of the day, you need to focus on yourself at some point.


That's usually how it works. Congrats on the great progress cf


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## cabin fever

Thank you. I must also say that I have always been close with my son, but my bond is MUCH greater now. He's only 10 and was going through a range of emotions, when we told him we were divorcing. I held myself together for him. I leaned on him, more then he did me. Kids are amazing. I took that (and to a point my wife) for granted. 

DG, I rooting for you. Keep a level head, and step back once in awhile, and try to look at things from a different prespective. 

From your posts, there is no doubt you want to fix this so badly! You can only do so much. When i reconciled, at first I laughed in her face! told he she was nuts. I had done a complete 180, and bottled up so much resentment, anger, and bitterness, humility, etc that i swore I would never go back to that place again. Over the weeks, I watched her continue to try, thats when I started listening to what she was saying. I love her, and would always do anything for her, so in the end I think we made the right decesion. But the thoughts are always there, I think they are pretty normal. In my case my wife is constantly doing things to ease my fears. She is in constant contact with me (she is a stay at home mom, going to school) so I get daily texts telling me what she is doing, and where she is going. I don't ask her to, but I think she does it, cuase she knows I am wondering.


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## Kallan Pavithran

Tall Average Guy said:


> Can I ask why you are still making all of this effort? She clearly does not care if you do, so why not back off.
> 
> I still think you are smothering her and giving her an excuse not to do anything. I also think there is too much "implied contract" in your expectations. You do nice things for her and expect her to do the same for you. When she does not, you get upset. Would not be surprised if she sees right through this (even if at subconscious level) and it is keeping her away. Do less for her, and when you do it, expect absolutely nothing in return.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


I think its time for you to look things in a different perspective.

Read your thread from a different view, read it as if it was writtern by someone else.

I dont think that she had any feelings for you.


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## DailyGrind

First....I want to thank everyone who continues to monitor this thread. I truly appreciate everyone's input.

As to why I am trying.....because for two years I didn't..and we just drifted further apart. I was uncounsiously doing the 180...and she never waivered in her distance from me...other than to get further away. So...NOW...I'm trying to be the best father/husband I can be. I can't, in all conscious, leave this marriage knowing I didn't try my best first. I don't really think I'm smothering her...just trying to be somewhat loving, albeit...unrequited. 

What bothers me is that she just seems to be in her own little world...and not even looking at ours, unless I initiate. The MC asked her, yesterday, what is going on in her head...about "us." Her response was that she doesn't even really have time to think about it. She doesn't have time to herself to collect her thoughts. I'm thinking....huh??!! It's ALL I'm thinking about....she can't even give it ONE thought?

I'm giving this about one more month, I think, before I throw in the towel. I just can't fathom how someone can be so self-centered, and selfish. She emailed me about 3 hours ago, with a spreadsheet whe was working on..and needed help how to do something. I quickly added some formulas and nice functionality...and sent it back to her. 3 hours later...no thank you, no acknowledgement...nothing. ?? So...I'm trying to think of a semi-snide way of emailing her that "Thank You's" are a nice way to show appreciations....you know.....those things you couldn't think of at our MC session! :scratchhead:


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## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> I'm giving this about one more month, I think, before I throw in the towel. I just can't fathom how someone can be so self-centered, and selfish. She emailed me about 3 hours ago, with a spreadsheet whe was working on..and needed help how to do something. * I quickly added some formulas and nice functionality...and sent it back to her. 3 hours later...no thank you, no acknowledgement...nothing. ??* So...I'm trying to think of a semi-snide way of emailing her that "Thank You's" are a nice way to show appreciations....you know.....those things you couldn't think of at our MC session! :scratchhead:


I apologize if this is harsh, but you keep making the same mistake over and over.

Your problem is that you are doing them not for her, but so that she will give you something back. It is actually a selfish act on your part. You are not giving because you love her. You are giving because you love the feeling when she give back. You are trying to create a contract, where you do something and she reciprocates. It is like a little kid doing something to get their parents approval.

Your last few posts focus on the wonderful things you are doing and why should you do them because she is not acknowledging those things. This tells me that you are doing them because you want something from her. In essence, it comes across like you are buying her attention and affection.

Stop it now. Quit doing something with the expectation that you will get anything. Grow up in your thinking and do it because that is what an adult does. Do it because it is what a man does. Don't expect anything in return. See how she reacts then.


----------



## DailyGrind

Tall Average Guy said:


> I apologize if this is harsh, but you keep making the same mistake over and over.
> 
> Your problem is that you are doing them not for her, but so that she will give you something back. It is actually a selfish act on your part. You are not giving because you love her. You are giving because you love the feeling when she give back. You are trying to create a contract, where you do something and she reciprocates. It is like a little kid doing something to get their parents approval.
> 
> Your last few posts focus on the wonderful things you are doing and why should you do them because she is not acknowledging those things. This tells me that you are doing them because you want something from her. In essence, it comes across like you are buying her attention and affection.
> 
> Stop it now. Quit doing something with the expectation that you will get anything. Grow up in your thinking and do it because that is what an adult does. Do it because it is what a man does. Don't expect anything in return. See how she reacts then.


We all like to be appreciated. :scratchhead: I don't do them FOR the appreciation. But, the glaring absence of it is what is causing me to scratch my head. So....what am I supposed to do? I also typically hold doors open for people, as a courtesy. I don't do it FOR the thank you......but when they DON'T thank me...I notice. It is simply courtesy. As a human being...I expect to be treated with dignity, and courtesy. That's all I'm saying.


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## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> We all like to be appreciated. :scratchhead: I don't do them FOR the appreciation. But, the glaring absence of it is what is causing me to scratch my head. So....what am I supposed to do? I also typically hold doors open for people, as a courtesy. I don't do it FOR the thank you......but when they DON'T thank me...I notice. It is simply courtesy. As a human being...I expect to be treated with dignity, and courtesy. That's all I'm saying.


But that is not why you are doing it here. You want that appreciation and you are upset that you don't get it. When you hold a door for someone and they don't say anything, do you give them a sarcastic "your welcome" or do you let it go? with your wife, you were prepared to the email version of that sarcasm. Why? 

If you don't do it for the appreciation, why are you constantly upset over the lack of appreciation? If she is not showing appreciation, why are you not willing to entertain the idea that she does not want you to do those things and thus you should stop doing them?

Why does this upset you but her failure to do anything to help you regain your trust in her?


----------



## DailyGrind

Tall Average Guy said:


> When you hold a door for someone and they don't say anything, do you give them a sarcastic "your welcome" ......


Sometimes.


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## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> Sometimes.


Then how are you not doing it for the appreciation?


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## DailyGrind

Tall Average Guy said:


> Then how are you not doing it for the appreciation?


Because I'd still do it, knowing I won't get an appreciation. But...I'll still grumble about not getting it. The two things are separate. I will hold a door...because that's how I was raised...and I believe in being courteous. I'll be irked about not being thanked, because that is rude. It's subtle...I admit. But then...that's just my personal quirk. I would never dream to not thank someone for doing something for me. Not because I felt I owed them...but because it is courteous....and part of my nature. I guess...if there were some way for someone to convey they were thankful, without actually expressing it...I'd be fine with that. But to ignore my doing something for someone....to me...means I didn't even matter enough to be given a second thought. I can accept that from strangers. I can't, from someone I know. I don't know any other way to say it. Just how I feel.


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## tennisstar

You sound like you're really trying and doing all you can. It just sounds like she's done. I can understand you want to give this your all for another month or so, but you also need to mentally prepare yourself that this most likely will end in divorce. You may want to start preparing yourself financially as well. I hate to say that, but your wife doesn't seem to be coming around. Remember, life is short. Don't waste it with someone who doesn't want to be with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> Because I'd still do it, knowing I won't get an appreciation. But...I'll still grumble about not getting it. The two things are separate. I will hold a door...because that's how I was raised...and I believe in being courteous. I'll be irked about not being thanked, because that is rude. It's subtle...I admit. But then...that's just my personal quirk. I would never dream to not thank someone for doing something for me. Not because I felt I owed them...but because it is courteous....and part of my nature. I guess...if there were some way for someone to convey they were thankful, without actually expressing it...I'd be fine with that. But to ignore my doing something for someone....to me...means I didn't even matter enough to be given a second thought. I can accept that from strangers. I can't, from someone I know. I don't know any other way to say it. Just how I feel.


I do understand that. What I am trying to get at is that it likely comes across as a transaction to your wife. You doing something not because you want to but because you then expect something in return. That does not work.

Having said all of that, the big elephant in the room is the her affair and your lack of trust. So even if your behavior has not been optimal, she still needs to be making an effort. She is not, and it is not clear she ever will. I suggest that you insist that be the issue in your next MC.


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## DailyGrind

Tall Average Guy said:


> I do understand that. What I am trying to get at is that it likely comes across as a transaction to your wife. You doing something not because you want to but because you then expect something in return. That does not work.
> 
> Having said all of that, the big elephant in the room is the her affair and your lack of trust. So even if your behavior has not been optimal, she still needs to be making an effort. She is not, and it is not clear she ever will. I suggest that you insist that be the issue in your next MC.


Good advice. Thanks.


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## Chaparral

Have the two of you done the Five Love Languages test on line?

Seriously consider a new marriage counselor. At least talk to him/her about your concerns. There are a lot of examples here of bad counselors.

On a radio program (Focus on the Family) this morning a counselor said every time a husband touches his wife , oxytocin is released in her bloodstream, even when her husband patted her on the head. Couldn't believe she used that as an example, I've been patting my wife on the head all night LOL. Women need overt affection are you showing her that as described in His Needs Her Needs? Does she not allow you to touch her.

If she was really in an EA you should have noticed withdrawal symptoms unless it was an EA and she is still in contact with him.

Do you and your wife disagree on the childrens discipline, can't believe child can disrupt a family outing? Do the kids play you against each other?

Sorry for the rambling.


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## DailyGrind

@ Chapparal - Yes...we did do the test, over a year ago. Hers were Acts of Service and Quality Time. Both of which I am trying to give her, right now. Mine are Touch and Words of Affirmation. So...I need the physical touch, and the "I love you's." Been over two years now. grrrr.

EA withdrawal symptoms. - Not exactly sure what symptoms would have been evident. She did stop going to the gym. She was not near as friendly, as she has been over the past month. If she is still in contact...it would be with that magical "other phone" I was never able to find.

I don't think we disagree too much on the children discipline. We do disagree on what constitutes aggregious behavior, on their part. She seems to have little patience for the antics. Oddly, most times I am way more understanding of the "kids will be kids" thing. As for the disrupted outing....our littlest D is VERY stuborn. And she's had a cold all week. So, when I was enforcing 'no more french fries until you eat your main food'....she through a fit. After half an hour, we had to bail......she was disrupting the entire restaurant. Normally, although she is the more stuborn one......she's also the most happy-go-lucky, as well. But....with a cold....she was not a happy camper.

Thanks.


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## Chaparral

You didn't mention if you touch her at all.


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## working_together

Daily, I really think you need to take charge of the next MC, and when the MC tries to side step it or whatever, tell her that you really need to discuss how your wife feels about the relationship, how she cannot even tell you she loves you, not in two years. Your wife really needs to speak up and be specific about what exactly stresses her out about your complaints about work, it`s a fairly normal occurance in a marriage I think. The other thing I would want to know is what exactly does she mean when she says she has no time to think about you and her as a couple. You need to ask these questions. And ask her if she likes it when you do nice things for her, or does she feel it`s too much. There needs to be more communication on both sides. 

I think I`m starting to agree with others in that she is done with the marriage and is just kind of coasting until either the kids are older, or she sets herself up to financially to leave.


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## tennisstar

DG, I assume you are still on the same path and nothing new has happened?


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## DailyGrind

tennisstar said:


> DG, I assume you are still on the same path and nothing new has happened?


Yeah, thanks....same path, nothing new. I found out last week that I'll have a business trip to Barcelona in June. When my wife found out...she was all..."I wanna go." We talked about it briefly....but...basically....i'm still waiting until my mid-March deadline for her to start coming around. After that...all trips are off. I didn't say that to her...but ...i'm thinking....WHY?? Why in the world would you want to go with me....when you can't even decide you WANT the relationship with me? I guess that is just more of the cake? Well...the bakery shuts down in March. That will be 5 months since D-Day. If she can't decide she wants the relationship by then...I'll decide it for her, I guess.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Yeah, thanks....same path, nothing new. I found out last week that I'll have a business trip to Barcelona in June. When my wife found out...she was all..."I wanna go." We talked about it briefly....but...basically....i'm still waiting until my mid-March deadline for her to start coming around. After that...all trips are off. I didn't say that to her...but ...i'm thinking....WHY?? Why in the world would you want to go with me....when you can't even decide you WANT the relationship with me? I guess that is just more of the cake? Well...the bakery shuts down in March. That will be 5 months since D-Day. If she can't decide she wants the relationship by then...I'll decide it for her, I guess.


The sad part is that once you make your decision she may realize what she would be losing and decide to start working on your marriage. By then for you it might be too little too late.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Maybe you should tell her that some decisions need to be made and made soon. Have you still been going to MC? In your honest opinion what do you think she wants?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes...we are still going to MC. Our next session is Wednesday afternoon. To be perfectly honest...I really have NO IDEA what she wants. We seem to be getting along okay, now. We've gone on dates, and spend a LOT more time together. I have made quite a few changes to myself, over the past 6 months:

1) I gave up gaming, back in August;
2) Lost about 25 lbs....and still going;
3) I'm in a pool league on Tuesday nights...other than that...I get home right after work, every night;
4) I spend considerable more time doing "family" things;
5) I've pretty much gone cold-turkey on the porn;
6) I've started seeing an IC;
7) I watch my angry outbursts. Can't even remember the last time (over a year);
8) Help out more around the house;
9) I definitely make sure to give her Acts of Service (her major love language);
10) And I take her out on dates.

All these have been consistently done for at least 4 months (if not longer.) So...I'm doing everything I can to meet her emotional needs (not that she has even really discussed them...but reference the list I discovered, back when I was snooping on her.) I even started being NON-disagreeable about the cat. 

Although she has been quite a bit nicer with me....she still is not really reaching out to me in any way. As of last MC, she was unable to tell me where her head was. And...instead of discussing any of her bitterness she has with me...she threw out the "I hate it when he talks about work"....red herring.

So....come my deadline (mid-March)...if she is unable to tell me she even WANTS the marriage...I'm backing off. Everything I'm doing (except maybe the acts of service stuff) is for the purpose of me being a better man/father/husband. However, she has to start showing ME something, as well. She seems perfectly content to let me shoulder all the load; as if I was the only issue in the marriage.

Rant off! :rofl:

EDIT:
At this point...I really have no idea if she is still communicating with her AP. I have no idea if her going cold on me two years ago was due to another EA (I don't think she could have had a PA.) None of her complaints have been really that major.....so, I really just don't understand why she went distant two years ago. If it was another EA....I don't know if it is still going. Can't understand why she would not be responding more favorably to my endeavors, unless she is just gone (but then why would she want to go on trips with me); or she is still in a fog with someone. No evidence...but then....there still is that "other phone" question.


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## hisfac

DailyGrind said:


> More history rewriting.....my daught DID start crying, and ran over to my wife...AFTER I left the room. I saw her start welling up, and stopped. Nice way to make me the villian. I yelled at her, cause I'd HAD IT with her condescending comments
> 
> Just looking for some advice. Again..sorry for the long post.


Obviously there are two sides to this story, you feel like you were the loving supporting husband all these years, she thinks you never cared and she's only together at this point for the kids.. it's hard to say who is more "to blame" as if it even matters at this point.

The only thing I can comment with any degree of "authority" since its the only thing you wrote that puts you in a bad light and shows some "at fault" behavior is your lack of self restraint and poor anger management in that you yelled at your wife in front of your daughter to the point that she ran to her mom afterwards (as if it matters that she ran to her after and not during your tirade?).

Never EVER yell at your spouse in front of the children, the effects especially cumulatively over time can be devastating and can leave negative psychological results that can span subsequent generations through one failed relationship after another.

More troubling perhaps is that not only do you 1) not see anything wrong with yelling in front of your daughter but 2) you justify it with everything that follows the word "cause" in your post quoted above.

Stop making excuses for your poor behavior, that's not going to get you anywhere but divorced, lonely and blaming everyone else for the problems you have in your relationships.

Edited to add: I read more of the thread, not the entire 75 pages but the more recent posts.

I see you have addressed the anger management issue, that's good, but as someone else said, it's probably too little, too late.

At least you'll be more improved as far as your self awareness and how you deal with conflict. That will help you going forward, but not necessarily with your marriage.


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## Chaparral

When she brings up wanting to go to Barcelona again, talk to her about how romantic a trip that would be and if she ccould handle that. Not in the clumsy way I stated it but you get my drift. Maybe a hint or two. May be just what the doctor ordered, like a second honeymoon with out the seasickness. You might even send her an invite to go on the trip along with a bouquet of red roses.


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## Lovebug501

DailyGrind said:


> Yeah, thanks....same path, nothing new. I found out last week that I'll have a business trip to Barcelona in June. When my wife found out...she was all..."I wanna go." We talked about it briefly....but...basically....i'm still waiting until my mid-March deadline for her to start coming around. After that...all trips are off. I didn't say that to her...but ...i'm thinking....WHY?? Why in the world would you want to go with me....when you can't even decide you WANT the relationship with me? I guess that is just more of the cake? Well...the bakery shuts down in March. That will be 5 months since D-Day. If she can't decide she wants the relationship by then...I'll decide it for her, I guess.


I hate to say this... but I think she wants to go to Barcelona... and if going with you is the way to go, so be it... plus since its a business trip, she probably figures that you will be busy working and she can enjoy the trip without you.


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## DailyGrind

I had to work a little late, last night....so I figured I'd give reaching out another try. It was 4 weeks ago when I sent her an 'I love you' text; which she ignored ....then told the MC that my texts were "over the top."

So...last night I sent her a text _'I figure you've already had dinner, and are on the sofa playing your word game. But I thought I might tell you (AGAIN) that I love you.'_

I'm not sure if it is progress...she did respond (?):

"Nope...cleaning up after dinner and trying to convince DD2 the fish tastes like fish sticks, only better."

So...she didn't IGNORE this one...but glossed over the important point. :rofl:


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## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> I had to work a little late, last night....so I figured I'd give reaching out another try. It was 4 weeks ago when I sent her an 'I love you' text; which she ignored ....then told the MC that my texts were "over the top."
> 
> So...last night I sent her a text _'I figure you've already had dinner, and are on the sofa playing your word game. But I thought I might tell you (AGAIN) that I love you.'_
> 
> I'm not sure if it is progress...she did respond (?):
> 
> "Nope...cleaning up after dinner and trying to convince DD2 the fish tastes like fish sticks, only better."
> 
> So...she didn't IGNORE this one...but glossed over the important point. :rofl:


I know you don't think so, but to me, it looks like you sent a text to get an I love you back. Not because you love her, but as part of a covert contract. That may not have been your conscious intent, but it is how it comes across

Try texting about stuff to keep dialog going (which she at least seems willing to do). Nice things, like you are thinking about her, without going for the whole I love you. Give her the space to engage.


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## DailyGrind

Tall Average Guy said:


> I know you don't think so, but to me, it looks like you sent a text to get an I love you back. Not because you love her, but as part of a covert contract. That may not have been your conscious intent, but it is how it comes across
> 
> Try texting about stuff to keep dialog going (which she at least seems willing to do). Nice things, like you are thinking about her, without going for the whole I love you. Give her the space to engage.


We are back to that again, huh?  You are somewhat right, I guess. I really want to know where her head is. I'm not texting her that for the sole purpose of getting a response. I just want to remind her that I do love her. At SOME point, the hope is that she will be in the same place. But, her being the introvert that she is.....who knows if she would just up and tell me. You make a good point, though. I can rephrase as just "Thinking about you", instead. Per my earlier posts....I'm not spending money on trips with her, if she really isn't into the marriage. In the meantime...I figure I'll periodically make sure she knows at least where I am.


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## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> We are back to that again, huh?  You are somewhat right, I guess. I really want to know where her head is. I'm not texting her that for the sole purpose of getting a response. I just want to remind her that I do love her. At SOME point, the hope is that she will be in the same place. But, her being the introvert that she is.....who knows if she would just up and tell me. You make a good point, though. I can rephrase as just "Thinking about you", instead. Per my earlier posts....I'm not spending money on trips with her, if she really isn't into the marriage. In the meantime...I figure I'll periodically make sure she knows at least where I am.


I am glad you took that in the way I intended.

I think you can make sure she knows where you are without smothering. I think the texting was great. You were thinking about her and let her know that. You also got a generally positive response, which is great. Keeping up the banter with her will show her that you are still wanting this to work, even if you don't use those exact words.


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## DailyGrind

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am glad you took that in the way I intended.
> 
> I think you can make sure she knows where you are without smothering. I think the texting was great. You were thinking about her and let her know that. You also got a generally positive response, which is great. Keeping up the banter with her will show her that you are still wanting this to work, even if you don't use those exact words.


Gotcha. For the record, though....I'm pretty much just texting her "banter" once a week, or two. I've been sending her the 'I Love You' text once a month. Other than that, I try not to text her much. I keep hoping she might initiate some banter. Nothing yet.


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## bandit.45

Why on god's green earth would you even consider taking her to Spain? She has shown you zero consideration. 

Go alone. Hit the tapas bars every night and flirt with as many hot Spanish girls as you can. 

It'll do you good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar

Lovebug501 said:


> I hate to say this... but I think she wants to go to Barcelona... and if going with you is the way to go, so be it... plus since its a business trip, she probably figures that you will be busy working and she can enjoy the trip without you.



I agree! First thing I thought yesterday when I read Daily's posting was that she just wanted to go to Barcelona.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

bandit.45 said:


> Why on god's green earth would you even consider taking her to Spain? She has shown you zero consideration.
> 
> Go alone. Hit the tapas bars every night and flirt with as many hot Spanish girls as you can.
> 
> It'll do you good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well...I did write, I would only take her if she has made a dramatic shift in her approach to the marriage by my deadline (Mid-March). I haven't told HER that. I'm just quietly going about being my wonderful self. She doesn't know it...but she is running out of runway. She's got about 3 weeks left. After that....the very next MC session...I will point blank demand 'Are you in, or are you out.....decide.' If she can't decide...I will quietly tell the MC that her services are no longer needed, and go hard 180. ONE of us will be getting an apartment, after that.


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## Trojan John

If I were you, I would start preparing for that eventuality RIGHT NOW. No point in sitting on your hands hoping for the best...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

Trojan John said:


> If I were you, I would start preparing for that eventuality RIGHT NOW. No point in sitting on your hands hoping for the best...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not really sure what to do. I've already had my initial meeting with a lawyer. He advised me to get ANYTHING in writing, that I can get, regarding custody. Everything else, he said, will fall into place. Problem is....she flat out refused to respond to my letter regarding it. I don't want to make any move until she can agree on custody. Problem is....if she refuses to discuss it...what are my options? I live in Maryland...and we have to be physically separated for one year before we can divorce. So...i'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. If she doesn't make some change...and I make my declaration at the MC session...I would also ask her again for an agreement on custody. If she doesn't respond, I could ask her to move out....but if she refuses....my lawyer tells me to NOT move out. So...what then? House deed is in both our names...but the mortgage is only in mine. I don't want to have to sell it...but I guess that is my only next move. She would have to agree to that, as well, though.

It kind of takes some wind out of my sails, for the D move.


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## cledus_snow

> I think you can make sure she knows where you are without smothering.


since when does telling your wife "I love you" amount to smothering?

i've gone through your whole thread, and there is not one ounce of heavy lifting on your wife's part since you blew her ea out of the water.

call it resentment, or whatever. she has long since checked-out of the marriage. 

she's just waiting you out, so she can say you're the one who filed. her hands are clean in all this. she'll probably even tell people you were a suspicious pyscho who was spying on her all the time.


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## bandit.45

> she's just waiting you out, so she can say you're the one who filed. her hands are clean in all this. she'll probably even tell people you were a suspicious pyscho who was spying on her all the time.


:iagree:

Totally agree.

She's smarter than her husband and devious to boot. There is nothing remotely likable about this woman.


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## DailyGrind

cledus_snow said:


> she's just waiting you out, so she can say you're the one who filed. her hands are clean in all this. she'll probably even tell people you were a suspicious pyscho who was spying on her all the time.


I could care less what she says. She can spin to her parents ...that's about it. All my friends, and family, know what happened. They all also know I've been hurting for over 5 years, about her. I don't see her filing, regardless. No matter how I see it.....I'll be the one to file. The only thing I'm concerned about is shared custody with my kids.

I'm still trying to figure out how my lawyer came up with $750/month child support...if we have 50/50 custody, I pay all the insurance...I pay all the childcare.....why would I ALSO need to pony up additional childcare?


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## cledus_snow

> I'm still trying to figure out how my lawyer came up with $750/month child support...if we have 50/50 custody, I pay all the insurance...I pay all the childcare.....why would I ALSO need to pony up additional childcare?


ouch!

good luck with that one.


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## bmichael

DailyGrind said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how my lawyer came up with $750/month child support...if we have 50/50 custody, I pay all the insurance...I pay all the childcare.....why would I ALSO need to pony up additional childcare?


This makes no sense.


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## hisfac

In my state child support is based on a percentage of each parents income, and one parent is deemed the custodial parent even if the parenting time is split 50/50, and some items are over and above child support so your scenario would not be uncommon at least in my state if the parent who is deemed the noncustodial parent is also a much higher income earner than the custodial parent.


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## Tall Average Guy

cledus_snow said:


> since when does telling your wife "I love you" amount to smothering?


It is smothering when it is done with the expectation that she will say I love you back. That is, it becomes a covert contract, where a nice thing is done not out of love but because the person expects something in return. While I have questioned DG about his intent, I do believe that his wife perceives his comments in this way.



> i've gone through your whole thread, and there is not one ounce of heavy lifting on your wife's part since you blew her ea out of the water.
> 
> call it resentment, or whatever. she has long since checked-out of the marriage.
> 
> she's just waiting you out, so she can say you're the one who filed. her hands are clean in all this. she'll probably even tell people you were a suspicious pyscho who was spying on her all the time.


Unfortunately, I do agree with this. I have not seen any work by her. She does not want to be the bad person, or own her share of the mess they are in.


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## Lovebug501

DailyGrind said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how my lawyer came up with $750/month child support...if we have 50/50 custody, I pay all the insurance...I pay all the childcare.....why would I ALSO need to pony up additional childcare?


You could be getting off pretty cheap. In Texas, it's 25% of your net income for 2 kids, plus health insurance and 50% of uninsured medical (with NET income being your gross less taxes and cost of health insurance for your children only). From your job description, I gather you are bringing home a tad more than $3,000 a month.

I don't know how much your childcare is, but it's likely that he's factoring in a credit for that cost.

To add insult to injury... child support is non-reportable income to her. And you can't deduct it. So you pay the tax on that $9,000 annually. And you possibly need to negotiate the income tax deduction for the kids... because she may be able to take that too.

I think your plan of action is sound. I'm sure that your lawyer can advise you on a course of action if she refuses to leave the residence. If they can't, get another lawyer. 

I think it's possible to save the marriage, but she's likely going to have to be knocked on her butt before she's willing to do anything about it.


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## cabin fever

it comes down to your income, vs hers. 

take the two, and then the computer draws a line, and WAH LA! Its lovely huh? The system is so F'n screwed up, its sickening. 

I would call a realtor, and let her know your doing it. It don't cost anything, and then you have some more info to go about your business, and she knows your not kidding around. 

I put our house on the market, and was preparred to sell it, and i have a nice house, with a kick azz garage I built with my hands (my man cave) I was ready to leet it go, just to get on with my life.


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## DailyGrind

Lovebug501 said:


> You could be getting off pretty cheap. In Texas, it's 25% of your net income for 2 kids, plus health insurance and 50% of uninsured medical (with NET income being your gross less taxes and cost of health insurance for your children only). From your job description, I gather you are bringing home a tad more than $3,000 a month.


Well..actually more than that. She makes about 60% of what I make. Regardless.....if it winds up being $750/month. She would probably almost double my disposable income, unless I wound up selling the house. Of course...unless I was primary custody of the kids...might not make sense to have a house anyway. I am considerably underwater on the mortgage though.



Lovebug501 said:


> I don't know how much your childcare is, but it's likely that he's factoring in a credit for that cost.


About $10k a year.



Lovebug501 said:


> I think it's possible to save the marriage, but she's likely going to have to be knocked on her butt before she's willing to do anything about it.


You got that right.


----------



## MEM2020

DG,
This is like watching a slow motion train wreck. 

Your W tells you that texting her "I love you" once a month is "over the top" and you are going to try to solve this problem by throwing money at it. Money that needs to go into savings because you are 50 and seem to have so little saved that a rented apartment wasn't even an option last year. 

Your W either enjoys your company or she doesn't. Full stop. If she does: There are plenty of no cost (sports), low cost date options that would be fun for both of you. 

If she doesn't, this is a total bust because she only seems inclined towards tolerating your company (in terms of discretionary time together) when it involves an expensive trip somewhere. 

You really don't seem to grasp that:
- You need to get your financial house in order before you hit 60 and risk being subject to serious age discrimination issues in the work place
- You "maybe" could "sort of" solve this issue with money if you were seriously well off AND had a pre-nup. 

At best you are going to do 2,3,4 expensive trips a year hoping to create a feeling that according to her never existed in the first place. 




DailyGrind said:


> Wow, Chapparal.....thanks....I think. I had pretty much forgotten these earlier posts. And you are right. I reread my entire posts. I can't believe how angry I sound. It did sound to be all about me, didn't it? That's kind of an eye-opener. I don't think, over the past year, I've been as angry. But neither were we adding much to the love bank, either.
> 
> To be brutally honest.....the time period between those posts, and now....such a blink of an eye. I got so insanely busy at work......and time seems a blur. Everything went into limbo. In March, I got a promotion.....and the work load doubled. It's only been the last three weeks that I've been able to start to see the life around me, again.
> 
> Our minister didn't work out, as a counselor. He was too wrapped up in some projects..and we could never get a schedule set with him. We didn't pursue another counselor because of my schedule...and we really couldn't afford it financially.
> 
> That being said....over the past year, I definitely made more time to be around the family. I tried doing the quality time...as much as possible. I also made it a point to help out much more, around the house. Albeit...nothing like it should have been. I've been trying to avoid what I think are her Love Busters.....but not making deposits really, either. When I got promoted...I wound up basically working both jobs, until we finally hired my replacement in August. Slowly...the job fog is lifting.
> 
> I know I've been deficient here. No excuses. I have been anticipating this next Spring (if there is one for us.) My new position entitles me to a substantial bonus (in March.) Between that, and the staggered raises I'm getting....to take me to my new salary......I know that next year we will FINALLY be out of our financial issues. With THAT stress gone...and the ability to start doing so much more together...I was really hoping we would be able to start focusing on us. We actually had started planning to take a trip to Florida (just the two of us) during Thanksgiving break. Turns out we couldn't pull it off...but had hoped to do so, sometime in the Spring. I won free airline tickets, for two, to anywhere in the Continental US...at our Christmas Party, last year. We were going to use those tickets to get away.
> 
> Anyway...we have scheduled with a MC on this Saturday. This counselor uses Imago Therapy. Anyone know about that? I'm hoping we can learn how to better communicate from this counselor. Meanwhile, I'll also begin following the concepts on MarriageBuilders and His Needs, Her Needs. I'll just focus on that. We'll see where this all goes. {sigh}


----------



## bandit.45

> At best you are going to do 2,3,4 expensive trips a year hoping to create a feeling that according to her never existed in the first place.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Humble Pie

DG, if you come into the mid-march deadline demanding your wife to show action in the R process of the marriage, her response will be that she has, and is "working" on the marriage. Her perspective of "working" on the marriage and your perspective are completely different! You are seeking affectionate actions, and as you mention your wife being a introvert, this is not a likely transformation for her, especially in such a short time frame. Expectations need to be placed in order to get results. Hoping she will change without informing her how you want her to change is a set up for failure.


----------



## DailyGrind

Humble Pie said:


> DG, if you come into the mid-march deadline demanding your wife to show action in the R process of the marriage, her response will be that she has, and is "working" on the marriage. Her perspective of "working" on the marriage and your perspective are completely different! You are seeking affectionate actions, and as you mention your wife being a introvert, this is not a likely transformation for her, especially in such a short time frame. Expectations need to be placed in order to get results. Hoping she will change without informing her how you want her to change is a set up for failure.


Good points. Thanks. I'll talk to my IC about the approach, I guess.


----------



## DailyGrind

UPDATE***

Okay...we had our latest MC session yesterday. For whatever reason (committment??)...she didn't even leave her work until 4:00, for a 4:30 appointment. She knows it takes her a full hour to get home (MC is within 5 min's of home.) She did the same thing for the last appointment. Needless to say, I am paying for a 1 1/2 hour session...and (again) we missed the first half hour. grrrr.

While waiting for W to show up, I explain to the MC that I was dissatisfied by the last session. I explained that I asked where her head was at...and she couldn't reply. I wanted to talk about her resentments with me..so we could address them....and she threw out the "I hate it when he talks about work" red herring.

So....wife shows up, and we start. MC pushes her on where her head is.....to which she finally replies "I don't know....I just don't know." So...MC asks me where mine is. I state the following:
1) Not a day goes by that I don't think about her EA;
2) I feel I'm doing all the work;
3) She doesn't talk about anything;
4) I am working hard (she acknowledges), but there is a shelf-life to this effort;
5) I love her;
6) I'm confused why there doesn't seem to be any progress.

She responds "you don't think there is progress?"

I respond 'you are nicer to me...but really....is that what you think is a contribution?....your NOT being cold to me anymore? Your biggest contribution seems to be ALLOWING me to spend more time with you.' She responds "that's a start!"

I then ask her if she wants a divorce. She says no. MC asks her why. She says "cause I care for him, care about the family and don't want to break the family up." MC tells her there has to be more to a marriage than that.

I pipe up that it amazes me there is not more progress after 8-9 sessions. MC responds pretty much that if she won't talk, there isn't really much she can do. MC asks W, is there anything she wants to tell me about where she is. W just sits there quiet. I'm thinking 'see....this is what I've been dealing with for 12 years.....she just WON'T talk. How can I meet her needs if she just flat out won't communicate?'

MC then goes off on this whole tangent about how W seems so stressed...she's got so much going on with work and kids...she doesn't know how working moms do it...there is no down time. She is asking W if she would rather be a SAHM (which she was for 3 years prior to 2009.) W responds she doesn't want to be dealing ONLY with the kids...and would want to work at least PT. We spend like a half hour on this conversation. She just kept responding "I don't know what I want." MC asking her what I could do for her...gets "I don't know."

At this point...I'm getting a bit pissed....and tell MC 'it's not like I don't do anything around the house.' MC is totally missing the point. The KIDS are her source of anxiety...not work. She just can't deal with the kids. She WAS a SAHM for three years....and THAT is what started her distancing from me. I encouraged her to go to work....A) we needed the money, and B) she wasn't dealing well with taking care of the kids.

Anyway...I feel this whole MC thing is just NOT doing much good. She isn't really talking about her issues (after almost 10 sessions).....and WHY in the world would I want to reward her behavior with offering her to stay home, while I do the work. When she WAS a SAHM....I STILL did half the housework...wtf?

I realize that the source of our falling apart really is the kids (for her). I do very well with them....she just gets irritated by them. BUT..we didn't have kids for our first 4 years married....and there wasn't much sex then either....so THAT isn't everything. But...if she won't talk....what the hell am I supposed to do?

Anyway...this morning I text her..'Do you want a separation?' She didn't respond...so I emailed her work email that I sent her a text. Still no response.

I honestly feel that after all the changes, and work I've been doing....if she isn't feeling it.....she is either in some fog....or just gone. I'm thinking I could encourage her to take an apartment. That will give her the "time to myself to just think about things." It will also get her out of the house...which, if I go the D route...i've been wondering how to get HER to leave (since mtg is in my name.) It might be the beginning of the end...but then....this limbo is no where to live either.

Did I do anything wrong here?


----------



## bandit.45

> Did I do anything wrong here?


In my opinion, yes. Just about everything.


----------



## DailyGrind

bandit.45 said:


> In my opinion, yes. Just about everything.


ok. Can you give a little more input?


----------



## Beowulf

Daily,

These are my thoughts. If I jump around it's because I'm brainstorming (and I have a headache).

You need to be in control of the MC sessions. You did take charge to a certain extent but you still allowed the MC to change things up. As soon as the MC mentioned SAHM you should have piped right up and said "not an option...NEXT!" If the MC was not specifically addressing your concerns turn your chair around so it is not facing them and start playing with your cell phone. When the MC asks what you are doing tell her you will participate when your concerns are being addressed properly. You can also tell the MC that if your marriage doesn't start showing some improvements you will file for divorce and she will be fired. Believe it or not this was done by someone I know and it was a turning point in their sessions.

She says she cares about you and the family. That would imply no love. I think she is stonewalling and needs a wakeup call. That can be serving her with divorce papers, doing a hard 180, disconnecting yourself completely from her, stop doing EVERYTHING unless you absolutely have to, etc.

I still think she is exhibiting all the signs of either having an affair or recently coming off one. I know you have checked and verified so I don't think she is now but damn it still seems like it.

Have you visited Married Man Sex Life and/or got the book? Athol's approach might be helpful. Also, if you email him he generally responds. Maybe he can give you some ideas from his perspective.

That's all I have for now. I really feel terrible for you because I know you've worked very hard. At some point you may have to realize that this is it. You may need to choose to continue with this type of marriage or end it and move on to someone who will love you completely.


----------



## bandit.45

> That's all I have for now. I really feel terrible for you because I know you've worked very hard.


Hard yes.

Smart? No.

DG has been gioven loads of advice, and here is where I see the problems;

1) He has spent thousands probably on MC that the wife has not been fully participating in. This is a wast of money and time because she is not 100% in to saving the marriage or acknowledging her affair. Now he sees how fruitless this has all been even when he was told by many here that it would not work.

2) He has continued to try to curry his wife's favors by cooking her meals, sending her I Love You notes, telling her he loves her, going out of his way to be her servant... when most posters here have told hime to stop doing so. Hell, even his own wife has asked him repeatedly to stop!!

3) He staunchly refuses to impose any sanctions on her behavior by refusing to file for divorce or doing a 180, even though time and again these have proven to be effective in waking waywards up from their fogs.

Love, love, love..... that's all DG thinks will save his marriage.

This whole process has not been about saving his marriage. It has been about DG staying true to his ego. DG is an egomaniac. He refuses to take advice when it is given, even when he desperately asks for it. He thinks he is so much smarter, wiser and understanding than the rest of us who have been through this same kind of hell. 

He is married to a woman who will never understand him or empathize with him, and yet he continues on with the same behaviors thinking that if he repeats them enough, slamming the same battering ram into the same steel wall, that eventually his wife's battlements will crumble.

It hasn't worked, its not going to work.


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> Daily,
> You need to be in control of the MC sessions. You did take charge to a certain extent but you still allowed the MC to change things up. As soon as the MC mentioned SAHM you should have piped right up and said "not an option...NEXT!"


I did say that it wasn't an option right now. For whatever reason the MC seems focused on her being "overwhelmed." I all but said...I don't understand how she has it any worse than me...or any other working mom, for that matter.



Beowulf said:


> You can also tell the MC that if your marriage doesn't start showing some improvements you will file for divorce and she will be fired. Believe it or not this was done by someone I know and it was a turning point in their sessions.


I did express my frustration that nothing seemed to be happening. I DO agree with MC, however...if W isn't talking...really isn't much MC can do.



Beowulf said:


> She says she cares about you and the family. That would imply no love.


My exact thought, as well.



Beowulf said:


> I think she is stonewalling and needs a wakeup call. That can be serving her with divorce papers, doing a hard 180, disconnecting yourself completely from her, stop doing EVERYTHING unless you absolutely have to, etc.


We are closing in hard, on my deadline...so this certainly is a very real outcome. Also why I texted her about a separation, this morning. If I can get her to agree to move out.....it simplifies the divorce process...AND ...the discussion on custody (which she never answered from my letter two months ago.)



Beowulf said:


> I still think she is exhibiting all the signs of either having an affair or recently coming off one. I know you have checked and verified so I don't think she is now but damn it still seems like it.


My thoughts too. There still is the open question about whether she has another phone....and who she was talking to in her car. I've found nothing elsewhere. And I certainly couldn't see where she'd have the time for something physical. But I have wondered if the two years ago cold sholder didn't originate with a different EA..possibly at work. She sure does exhibit signs of being in a fog, though.



Beowulf said:


> Have you visited Married Man Sex Life and/or got the book? Athol's approach might be helpful. Also, if you email him he generally responds. Maybe he can give you some ideas from his perspective.


I do have the book. I read it once...but I'll circle back to it.

Thanks for the input!


----------



## DailyGrind

bandit.45 said:


> Hard yes.
> 
> Smart? No.
> 
> DG has been gioven loads of advice, and here is where I see the problems;
> 
> 1) He has spent thousands probably on MC that the wife has not been fully participating in. This is a wast of money and time because she is not 100% in to saving the marriage or acknowledging her affair. Now he sees how fruitless this has all been even when he was told by many here that it would not work.
> 
> 2) He has continued to try to curry his wife's favors by cooking her meals, sending her I Love You notes, telling her he loves her, going out of his way to be her servant... when most posters here have told hime to stop doing so. Hell, even his own wife has asked him repeatedly to stop!!
> 
> 3) He staunchly refuses to impose any sanctions on her behavior by refusing to file for divorce or doing a 180, even though time and again these have proven to be effective in waking waywards up from their fogs.
> 
> Love, love, love..... that's all DG thinks will save his marriage.
> 
> This whole process has not been about saving his marriage. It has been about DG staying true to his ego. DG is an egomaniac. He refuses to take advice when it is given, even when he desperately asks for it. He thinks he is so much smarter, wiser and understanding than the rest of us who have been through this same kind of hell.
> 
> He is married to a woman who will never understand him or empathize with him, and yet he continues on with the same behaviors thinking that if he repeats them enough, slamming the same battering ram into the same steel wall, that eventually his wife's battlements will crumble.
> 
> It hasn't worked, its not going to work.


wow...don't sugar-coat it for me...let me know what you really think.


----------



## bandit.45

I say what I think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Well...I finally got a response from my text this morning, about separation.

"maybe space is necessary."

So....it looks like another meeting with the divorce attorney.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> Well...I finally got a response from my text this morning, about separation.
> 
> "maybe space is necessary."
> 
> So....it looks like another meeting with the divorce attorney.


I do think this whole exchange has been poorly managed by you. You keeping asking her what she wants - does she want a divorce, a separation, what. All the time the message you are sending is that she is in control and that she determines when your marriage is over.

You need to take back some of that control. You need to make it clear to her that you have just as much control as to whether the marriage will continue, and that that time is fast approaching. You don't have to give her the date, but let her know divorce is on your menu of options.


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## DailyGrind

I responded back to her to start looking for an apartment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> I responded back to her to start looking for an apartment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And tell her you are filing immediately for divorce. If she is in an affair the separation is a way to make it more convenient. If not then she doesn't love you anyway and trying to save the marriage is a waste of time. Make sure you stay in the family home and go for primary custody since she obviously has problems being a full time mother.

DG, its time for shock and awe.


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## DailyGrind

Man this killing me... Have go home now and "discuss" this. I know how it will go...nothing out of her.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Then don't discuss it, just do it


----------



## Chaparral

The way you described MC was : impatient , angry, frustrated ,angry, etc. It sounds like you are waging a war and she is on defense. By my numbers you have been in MC 15 hours and you think that is going to fix years of neglect. In my opinion you need to start thinking instead of emotionally reacting.

She has made a lot of progress. She thought she had anyway. You said you would end it in March and I picture you gritting your teeth , tapping your foot and just dying to pull the trigger.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> The way you described MC was : impatient , angry, frustrated ,angry, etc. It sounds like you are waging a war and she is on defense. By my numbers you have been in MC 15 hours and you think that is going to fix years of neglect. In my opinion you need to start thinking instead of emotionally reacting.
> 
> She has made a lot of progress. She thought she had anyway. You said you would end it in March and I picture you gritting your teeth , tapping your foot and just dying to pull the trigger.


The only reason it is impatient is because she won't talk. I'm paying $200/hr and she won't talk.....not to mention even show up on time. Nor is she doing anything. I keep readin on this forum that that the WS needs to show remorse....bit I'm not getting any of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CH

DailyGrind said:


> .bit I'm not getting any of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then you have your answer already. She's just going through the motions so that in the end she can say I tried but you couldn't deal with it.

Easy out for her and less guilt on her end.


----------



## DailyGrind

cheatinghubby said:


> Then you have your answer already. She's just going through the motions so that in the end she can say I tried but you couldn't deal with it.
> 
> Easy out for her and less guilt on her end.


Yeah. I'm afraid so. As lonely as I've felt...her answer on separation just tripled that feeling. Damn Celopram isn't working as it was supposed to. Dr. Doubled my dosage on Friday.....feel as anxious/depressed as ever. Damn love songs on the radio don't help either.


----------



## DailyGrind

Sitting at a bar close to home. Just can't muster the energy to go home. Damn...I felt stronger earlier...what happened???!!


----------



## Chaparral

You've let your emotions push yopu into a corner. You really need to think before you talk. It seems like you just can't help yourself.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> You've let your emotions push yopu into a corner. You really need to think before you talk. It seems like you just can't help yourself.


So...what should I be doing? I'm lost here.


----------



## bandit.45

Don't talk to her.

Talk through your lawyer.


----------



## golfergirl

bandit.45 said:


> Don't talk to her.
> 
> Talk through your lawyer.


I think she has to fear losing you before she will come around. It's a gamble, but if she doesn't choose you, you never stood a chance in the first place. Best of luck to you, stick up for YOU and your kids!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Its taken a long time to get where you are. Its going to take a long time to get where you want to be. 

I've seen several positive signs. For one if she was in an EA she did not show any withdrawal symptoms when she stopped "seeing" him. You haven't been able to find any real evidence of an affair.

She thinks she has made progress and cares for her family. She wants to take a family vacation, she wants to go to Barcelona with you and your answer is to attack her at MC. 

I don't think either of you can communicate at this point. She's afraid to talk to you and you seem to be able to push her away with out really trying. Then ,in effect, you get pissed and tell her you want a separation, get out.

Tell her you don't think a separation is a good idea unless she wants a divorce. Tell her you don't see the MC is working and you want to try a different one. Tell her she and your family means everything to you and you want to work with her. 

Sitting in a bar is just going to remind her when you used to do that a lot and came home late.


----------



## DailyGrind

golfergirl said:


> I think she has to fear losing you before she will come around. It's a gamble, but if she doesn't choose you, you never stood a chance in the first place. Best of luck to you, stick up for YOU and your kids!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yeah....my logical self is in complete agreement. My emotional self says 'look at those beautiful kids, sleeping in those beds...completely oblivious of what is coming down the pike...and you KNOW they will blame ME.' {sigh}


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Its taken a long time to get where you are. Its going to take a long time to get where you want to be.
> 
> I've seen several positive signs. For one if she was in an EA she did not show any withdrawal symptoms when she stopped "seeing" him. You haven't been able to find any real evidence of an affair.
> 
> She thinks she has made progress and cares for her family. She wants to take a family vacation, she wants to go to Barcelona with you and your answer is to attack her at MC.
> 
> I don't think either of you can communicate at this point. She's afraid to talk to you and you seem to be able to push her away with out really trying. Then ,in effect, you get pissed and tell her you want a separation, get out.
> 
> Tell her you don't think a separation is a good idea unless she wants a divorce. Tell her you don't see the MC is working and you want to try a different one. Tell her she and your family means everything to you and you want to work with her.
> 
> Sitting in a bar is just going to remind her when you used to do that a lot and came home late.


But...I didn't tell her I wanted a separation. I asked her if SHE wanted one....and she said yes.


----------



## golfergirl

DailyGrind said:


> yeah....my logical self is in complete agreement. My emotional self says 'look at those beautiful kids, sleeping in those beds...completely oblivious of what is coming down the pike...and you KNOW they will blame ME.' {sigh}


If you're not ready don't do it. You are ready for divorce when being with her hurts more than being alone. Instead tell her tonight. I need x y and z from you, can you try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

golfergirl said:


> If you're not ready don't do it. You are ready for divorce when being with her hurts more than being alone. Instead tell her tonight. I need x y and z from you, can you try.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Alas....she went to bed early...no talking tonight. As to the hurt....it hurts REAL bad being with her. No telling if is is worse than being alone. I've not been alone in 15 years. I think if it were "alone" with my kids full time...I could deal with that. But the thoughts of the financial hit, and possibly part time with the kids.....THAT might be worse than the hurt WITH her. I just don't know. I was so resolute earlier. I hate sounding weak....DAMN.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> But...I didn't tell her I wanted a separation. I asked her if SHE wanted one....and she said yes.




..'Do you want a separation?' She didn't respond...so I emailed her work email that I sent her a text. Still no response.

However you want to look at it, you are pushing her into it. A few days ago she was excited about a trip to Barcelona and now she has been ordered to get an apartment.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> ..'Do you want a separation?' She didn't respond...so I emailed her work email that I sent her a text. Still no response.
> 
> However you want to look at it, you are pushing her into it. A few days ago she was excited about a trip to Barcelona and now she has been ordered to get an apartment.


I guess...out of context...I can see what you are saying. But you would have had to see her last night in MC. She seemed so emotional, like she was so conflicted about us...which is why I asked if she wanted a divorce. Her response was so tentative...it just seemed obvious she almost didn't want to say it. It just seemed to me she was so on the fence...but I couldn't figure out why. I occured to me, as i thought on it...she seemed like she wanted out...but didn't want to say it. That's why I asked her about a separation.


----------



## Catherine602

Daily you dont have to do anything now. What is the rush. I have been following your thread and it seems that you are not ready to do anything yet. 

If you make a decision under artificial pressure then you may have lingering doubts. You want to be absolutely sure before taking any final steps. Dont force it. You need a watershed event that will convince you in no uncertain terms, that you know what you want. The confusion will lift and you will be action. 

Just a comment about deadlines. Your wife should have been working her butt off from the moment you gave her that deadline. By now things should be humming along if she were interested. She will not suddenly become a loving affectionate wife at 12AM on March 15th. 

I think you know your marriage is no longer viable but you are not ready to let go. Wait until you are ready, it will come and when it does you will be able to turn away from her and not look back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> I guess...out of context...I can see what you are saying. But you would have had to see her last night in MC. She seemed so emotional, like she was so conflicted about us...which is why I asked if she wanted a divorce. Her response was so tentative...it just seemed obvious she almost didn't want to say it. It just seemed to me she was so on the fence...but I couldn't figure out why. I occured to me, as i thought on it...she seemed like she wanted out...but didn't want to say it. That's why I asked her about a separation.


Its because you keep pushing. You have no patience. Go back and read your threads. The two things that are obvious are anger and a lack of patience/insight. Your wife no longer trusts you to do the right thing. Ask her if thats not true, but only if you can accept her answer whatever it is without arguing her answer.


----------



## DailyGrind

Catherine602 said:


> Daily you dont have to do anything now. What is the rush. I have been following your tgread and it seems that you are not ready to do anything yet.
> 
> If you make a decision under artificial pressure then you may have lingering doubts. You want to be absolutely sure before taking any final steps. Dont force it. You need a watershed event that will convince you in no uncertain terms, that you know what you want. The confusion will lift and you will be action.
> 
> Just a comment about deadlines. Your wife should have been working her butt off from the moment you gave her that deadline. By now things should be humming along if she were interested. She will not suddenly become a loving affectionate wife at 12AM on March 15th.
> 
> I think you know your marriage is no longer viable but you are not ready to let go. Wait until you are ready, it will come and when it does you will be able to turn away from her and not look back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Catherine. In the meantime...I assume the hard 180 is called for. How is that done while living under the same roof?


----------



## Chaparral

"Your wife should have been working her butt off from the moment you gave her that deadline"

When did he give her a deadline?


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Thanks Catherine. In the meantime...I assume the hard 180 is called for. How is that done while living under the same roof?


Read the 180 over and over because people are constantly reading things into it that are not there.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> "Your wife should have been working her butt off from the moment you gave her that deadline"
> 
> When did he give her a deadline?


I didn't give her a deadline...but shouldn't she have been working on it anyway?


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> I didn't give her a deadline...but shouldn't she have been working on it anyway?


I think she's afraid to. Ask her.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I think she's afraid to. Ask her.


I did...in MC...the last couple sessions. No answer.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> I did...in MC...the last couple sessions. No answer.


What does her body language say?


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> What does her body language say?


completely on the fence...I just don't know what she is seeing on the other side. Very baffling.

I know this has taken on major intensity since her EA. But really...I've been working on it, and reaching out to her, for the past two years. Her EA made me do so in earnest. But...it isn't like I haven't been patiently trying for a very long time. I just don't see where her head is. it's killing me.


----------



## hisfac

DailyGrind said:


> completely on the fence...I just don't know what she is seeing on the other side. Very baffling.
> 
> I know this has taken on major intensity since her EA. But really...I've been working on it, and reaching out to her, for the past two years. Her EA made me do so in earnest. But...it isn't like I haven't been patiently trying for a very long time. I just don't see where her head is. it's killing me.


You're wasting time, energy and considerable emotional effort wondering why she's doing what she's doing.

None of that matters anymore. 

She's withdrawn from the marriage..from YOU. 

Whether she's actively involved with another guy is irrelevant, she's not interested in reconciliation.

Stop trying so hard to save this thing, and start concentrating on yourself and your kids. A few posts back you said you've got worries about the big financial hit the divorce will take (in legal fees, and 2 separate residences) as well as part time access to your kids. Yes, that's the two biggest fears most guys have, a distant third is meeting someone else down the line.

You're stuck in the denial stage, but gradually starting to realize that things are just never going to be the same, and once you start making progress in terms of moving on with your life, your "new" life, "sans wife", you're going to be stressed for sure, but feeling a lot better because something positive will be happening amidst the chaos that was once "relative normalcy".

Hang in there man, having been there myself I can tell you it's going to get a bit worse before it gradually starts getting a whole lot better.


----------



## MEM2020

DG,
Your single biggest issue by far is this: You truly believe that physical beauty is correlated to other positive qualities like:
- Kindness
- Fairness
- Maturity
- Fairness
- Honestly

This is a very common blind spot in men. 

If your W was average looking you would NEVER have tolerated her dysfunctional, selfish, cold behavior for a year, much less over a decade. At some point you will actually accept that she never loved you, but rather tolerated you because you made an effort to make HER life easier. 

To be fair she has been honest and consistent from the start. She doesn't love you or desire you. She never did. And she never "pretended" to. 




DailyGrind said:


> completely on the fence...I just don't know what she is seeing on the other side. Very baffling.
> 
> I know this has taken on major intensity since her EA. But really...I've been working on it, and reaching out to her, for the past two years. Her EA made me do so in earnest. But...it isn't like I haven't been patiently trying for a very long time. I just don't see where her head is. it's killing me.


----------



## DailyGrind

MEM11363 said:


> DG,
> Your single biggest issue by far is this: You truly believe that physical beauty is correlated to other positive qualities like:
> - Kindness
> - Fairness
> - Maturity
> - Fairness
> - Honestly
> 
> This is a very common blind spot in men.
> 
> If your W was average looking you would NEVER have tolerated her dysfunctional, selfish, cold behavior for a year, much less over a decade. At some point you will actually accept that she never loved you, but rather tolerated you because you made an effort to make HER life easier.
> 
> To be fair she has been honest and consistent from the start. She doesn't love you or desire you. She never did. And she never "pretended" to.


ugggghh. Just when I thought I felt my worst! blahhh!


----------



## warlock07

> Thanks Catherine. In the meantime...I assume the hard 180 is called for. How is that done while living under the same roof?


what 180? pretty much useless at this point.


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> what 180? pretty much useless at this point.


Why? Isn't the 180 supposed to be for me? To get me focused on detachment?


----------



## bandit.45

Yes. Do the 180. For real this time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lovebug501

I think she probably believes she wants a divorce and is scared to jump off that bridge... so push her off. See if she reaches back for you or just accepts the plunge. 

Set up a "visitation schedule"... even though you are under the same roof, set up the care of the children the way you would do it if you were divorced and not under same roof. Keep detailed notes on how she handles it. Give those to your attorney... That could be very useful in determining who gets primary custody of the children without a huge ugly battle.


----------



## NotLikeYou

A guy went out bear hunting one day. He saw a bear and shot it. It was a perfect shot in the head. He walked over to retrieve the dead bear and it wasn't there on the ground. He was wondering where it went. Then he felt a tap on his shoulder. He looked back and it was the bear. The bear said, "Grab your ankles."

So the hunter did and the bear started ramming him up the ass.

The next day, the hunter went back out hunting with a bigger gun. He thought, "I am going to get that damn bear this time!"
He saw the bear, shot him twice, then he noticed the bear was again not on the ground when he tried to retrieve it.
He got another tap on the shoulder. You guessed it, the bear again, saying, "Grab your ankles."

He rammed the guy up the ass again.

The next day the guy went out again, this time he had a 50 caliber machine gun with Armor piercing, explosive tip rounds.
He saw the bear and went crazy on him and filled him full of lead!
Then he got another tap on the shoulder. He looked back and saw the bear.

The bear said, "You know, "I'm beginning to think that you're not really coming out here to hunt!"

DG, you don't really come here for the advice, do you.

/facepalm


----------



## DailyGrind

NotLikeYou said:


> A guy went out bear hunting one day. He saw a bear and shot it. It was a perfect shot in the head. He walked over to retrieve the dead bear and it wasn't there on the ground. He was wondering where it went. Then he felt a tap on his shoulder. He looked back and it was the bear. The bear said, "Grab your ankles."
> 
> So the hunter did and the bear started ramming him up the ass.
> 
> The next day, the hunter went back out hunting with a bigger gun. He thought, "I am going to get that damn bear this time!"
> He saw the bear, shot him twice, then he noticed the bear was again not on the ground when he tried to retrieve it.
> He got another tap on the shoulder. You guessed it, the bear again, saying, "Grab your ankles."
> 
> He rammed the guy up the ass again.
> 
> The next day the guy went out again, this time he had a 50 caliber machine gun with Armor piercing, explosive tip rounds.
> He saw the bear and went crazy on him and filled him full of lead!
> Then he got another tap on the shoulder. He looked back and saw the bear.
> 
> The bear said, "You know, "I'm beginning to think that you're not really coming out here to hunt!"
> 
> DG, you don't really come here for the advice, do you.
> 
> /facepalm


Yes...I do. But I also get some conflicting advice. Some say go nuclear...some say I'm too hard. Some say I pushed it in MC...other's say I didn't say enough. I was too harsh with asking her about separation...but then get applauds for telling her to find an apartment. Head is spinning. Besides...she was showing possible progress. But when she could only come up with "I don't know" in MC....I realized she really wasn't. She was being nicer...but it didn't mean anything.

I realize....it seems she just doesn't want to be the bad guy, and call this time of death. I know (in my head) I need to .....but also...that makes me the bad guy to my kids. It is just hard.


----------



## tennisstar

Is daily supposed to wait forever for his fragile wife is come around??

I think he's doing his best in this situation and he's right, everyone is giving him conflicting advice. He can't be expected to live in limbo land forever! And I agree with him. MC is a waste if his money. His wife doesn't even make an effort to arrive on time. Right there, she's saying working out the marriage isn't important to her. She also didn't even wait up to talk about a possible separation. Again, that shows she isn't that bothered by the marriage ending!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dymo

DailyGrind said:


> Yes...I do. But I also get some conflicting advice. Some say go nuclear...some say I'm too hard. Some say I pushed it in MC...other's say I didn't say enough. I was too harsh with asking her about separation...but then get applauds for telling her to find an apartment. Head is spinning. Besides...she was showing possible progress. But when she could only come up with "I don't know" in MC....I realized she really wasn't. She was being nicer...but it didn't mean anything.
> 
> I realize....it seems she just doesn't want to be the bad guy, and call this time of death. I know (in my head) I need to .....but also...that makes me the bad guy to my kids. It is just hard.


Have you thought of getting some advice elsewhere? From people in your life who you know and trust, and who know the both of you?

Frankly, you're at a precarious stage. You may want to cast the net wide for different perspectives. Huge life decisions should not rely solely on the fickle opinions of internet strangers. 

I'll add my opinion, of course. And as with every other post, you need to figure out for yourself what to do with it. 

Frankly, there was no way that you were going to have this sorted by March. The fact that she had started being friendly was progress, no matter how much you and other posters may have downplayed it's significance. She had warmed up in a few months after being cold for two years. It's not nearly enough, but it was something. 

That said, you had every right to push for more in counselling. It is something, but you need more.

What I'm weary of is how you may be escalating this much more quickly than is necessary. Unless I missed something, this marriage counselling session is the first time this year that you have made any indication that her actions were not enough. You have already essentially told her to move out. She never had time to process the bomb dropped on her in MC and figure out what she would do. 

Some people have pushed for a quick solution. Some ultimatum that forces her hand, or just moving for divorce. Either way, I don't think your marriage would survive. I think if you are to have any hope of achieving the marriage that you want, you need to play the long game. That might mean less drama for readers, but a little more stability for the two of you to build something if this can be salvaged.

Whether you are up to it is of course a matter for you. For all I know, you may be too emotionally frazzled to stick with this marriage for too much longer. In that case, the quick path might be best.


----------



## gpa

DG after a lot of reading in this thread a really think that y have to proove your wife that y r a real man. Please stand up and stop doing circles around her like a puppy. Perhaps that's what she is looking for.


----------



## DailyGrind

dymo said:


> What I'm weary of is how you may be escalating this much more quickly than is necessary. Unless I missed something, this marriage counselling session is the first time this year that you have made any indication that her actions were not enough. You have already essentially told her to move out. She never had time to process the bomb dropped on her in MC and figure out what she would do.


Well...in my mind, I thought I was making the point that if she wanted separation....I sure as hell was not moving out. But...yes...I agree it probably was a bomb. On the other hand....I've been getting carpet bombed for the past two years...so....Your point below is also valid....I am VERY frazzled. Emotions are all over the place. Gut, heart and head are duking it out. 



dymo said:


> For all I know, you may be too emotionally frazzled to stick with this marriage for too much longer. In that case, the quick path might be best.


Thanks...this seemed like a very insightful post! :smthumbup:


----------



## UCanTalk

DG -Ive read this post from the beginning and can see some parallels in my own situation but i have to admit your story is more extreme in the lack of sex department. I relate my story because it may shed more light on your wife's behaviour, but i do have to admit we have gone through periods of good passionate sex, especially when we go on holiday, so im not sure what's up with your wife given these issues have been there from the honeymoon.

I started both IC and MC 3 years ago. Pathological insecurity and a belief my wife had been unfaithful drove me to therapy. I used to see myself as a devoted and loving husband. I gave my wife an amazing materialistic life style. When we first started MC my wife just sat there and said nothing, she just would not engage and said everything was fine and I was the one with all the issues. MC was slowed down for me to concentrate on my IC.

In therapy i discovered i was highly co-dependent and had been manipulative, passive aggressive, critical, using sex to make me feel secure and a whole bunch of other behaviours that had ground her down over 23 years of marriage. She had built up huge resentments that I was totally unaware of. 

I worked hard on changing my behaviours but a lifetime's bad habits dont get changed in a few months, they take much longer to get rid of. 

After 18 months of what i felt i was doing all the heavy lifting and some more MC i felt things were moving just so darned slow. I got fed up and a year ago ,2 weeks after her father died i started embarking on an EA. This turned into full blown limerence and i think precipitated a mid life meltdown. I confessed to SO after 2 weeks and she was devestated. BUT it was the kick she finally needed to realsie that i could one day leave her. she said "i never thought you would want to leave me"

From that day, as painful as it was, she committed 110% to MC, started her own IC and things are the best they have been.

Ive just finished Dr. Phil's book on relationship Rescue. He starts by saying get your own house in order before you work on your relationship. you can only be responsible for your own work.

I wonder if you have similar issues to me such as co-dependency? It does feel that way. The way you idolise your wife. the way you use her to bolster your own self esteem. If you can find a way of focussing on your own work in IC and let your relationship find its own way then things may improve. If they dont, then at least you are starting on the road of becoming more emotionally resilient and learning to meet your own needs. Its a long slow painful journey and I wish you much luck.


----------



## DailyGrind

UCanTalk said:


> DG -Ive read this post from the beginning and can see some parallels in my own situation but i have to admit your story is more extreme in the lack of sex department. I relate my story because it may shed more light on your wife's behaviour, but i do have to admit we have gone through periods of good passionate sex, especially when we go on holiday, so im not sure what's up with your wife given these issues have been there from the honeymoon.
> 
> I started both IC and MC 3 years ago. Pathological insecurity and a belief my wife had been unfaithful drove me to therapy. I used to see myself as a devoted and loving husband. I gave my wife an amazing materialistic life style. When we first started MC my wife just sat there and said nothing, she just would not engage and said everything was fine and I was the one with all the issues. MC was slowed down for me to concentrate on my IC.
> 
> In therapy i discovered i was highly co-dependent and had been manipulative, passive aggressive, critical, using sex to make me feel secure and a whole bunch of other behaviours that had ground her down over 23 years of marriage. She had built up huge resentments that I was totally unaware of.
> 
> I worked hard on changing my behaviours but a lifetime's bad habits dont get changed in a few months, they take much longer to get rid of.
> 
> After 18 months of what i felt i was doing all the heavy lifting and some more MC i felt things were moving just so darned slow. I got fed up and a year ago ,2 weeks after her father died i started embarking on an EA. This turned into full blown limerence and i think precipitated a mid life meltdown. I confessed to SO after 2 weeks and she was devestated. BUT it was the kick she finally needed to realsie that i could one day leave her. she said "i never thought you would want to leave me"
> 
> From that day, as painful as it was, she committed 110% to MC, started her own IC and things are the best they have been.
> 
> Ive just finished Dr. Phil's book on relationship Rescue. He starts by saying get your own house in order before you work on your relationship. you can only be responsible for your own work.
> 
> I wonder if you have similar issues to me such as co-dependency? It does feel that way. The way you idolise your wife. the way you use her to bolster your own self esteem. If you can find a way of focussing on your own work in IC and let your relationship find its own way then things may improve. If they dont, then at least you are starting on the road of becoming more emotionally resilient and learning to meet your own needs. Its a long slow painful journey and I wish you much luck.


Great post, UCanTalk. Glad to hear things are going better for you. :smthumbup: I assume you are not advocating I start an EA...right? 

Co-dependence.....yeah...that is possible. I am in IC now...but just had my 3rd session yesterday. So far, it has been more focused on my history....and then yesterday on the M. I think she is saving the meatier things for when my Celexapro kicks in better.  I agree with your approach to work on self first. I'm trying man.....I'm trying.

Thanks for the well wishes, and pep talk!


----------



## UCanTalk

DailyGrind said:


> Great post, UCanTalk. Glad to hear things are going better for you. :smthumbup: I assume you are not advocating I start an EA...right?


LOL

Depends how much time and money you have. I had many life changing lessons from my limerence and still do, the biggest being a much needed spiritual awakening. I'm also far more empathetic to people who are in the "fog" . I know what its like and it is an addiction. Nothing shakes it apart from NC, time and realising like all addictions its a coping mechanism to avoid dealing with our own deep internal wounds. We need to learn to love ourselves and respect ourselves as no one else can do this for us.

But one of the down sides was life ground to a halt for me for the best part of a year. I gave up functioning. Had I been employed I would have lost my job. I was lucky I run my own business but that still suffered BIG time.

My wife rarely spoke of her deep love for me, she internalised all her s**t. On disclosure she said no way was some other woman going to get me after her waiting around for 24 years and seeing how much I was starting to change back into the man she first met. That made me know she did love me. I wasn't so sure before. As she rightly says, no amount of love was going to fill the gaping hole inside me and i had been sucking her dry of love all these years. 

Its taken a lot of therapy and group therapy for me to start seeing her POV. I still have a way to go though. But i did have a very f**ked up dysfunctional family of origin. Way more f**ked up then I ever realised.


----------



## Chaparral

We are all rooting for you and your family, unbelievably so. Patience is what you need now. You started meds and IC give it time to work. Actions speak louder than words for you both. Your wife has made more progress more quickly than I thought she would. Do not throw it all away by being over anxious. Be strong and manly. When in doubt or emotional stay quiet and reflect.


----------



## BambooScot

Following your thread from the beginning:I dont think your the type to "cut-and-run". You sound like a person that strives to overcome challenges and setbacks. Keep trying. 

From your description, it sounds like she has some depression. Depression is more than walking around catatonic. It shows itself in many different ways. I think she is broke and lost inside. She probably doesnt feel safe to express herself in MC. 

Sit her down, tell her you dont want to separate, you want to have a full and meaningful relationship with her. Hug her even if she doesnt initiate it or return it. You two are horrible communicators. Do something to compensate for it.

"Mr Daily Grind- tear down that wall"


----------



## Chaparral

BambooScot said:


> Following your thread from the beginning:I dont think your the type to "cut-and-run". You sound like a person that strives to overcome challenges and setbacks. Keep trying.
> 
> From your description, it sounds like she has some depression. Depression is more than walking around catatonic. It shows itself in many different ways. I think she is broke and lost inside. She probably doesnt feel safe to express herself in MC.
> 
> Sit her down, tell her you dont want to separate, you want to have a full and meaningful relationship with her. Hug her even if she doesnt initiate it or return it. You two are horrible communicators. Do something to compensate for it.
> 
> "Mr Daily Grind- tear down that wall"


After hearing some counselors on Focus on the Family today I was also wondering about the depression angle. I can't remember if DG's wife has had any kind of counseling.


----------



## working_together

Daily, I agree you are getting some conflicted advice, I don`t envy your position for sure. I think you`re so desperate to see her change, to show her love for you, that you dropped the separation bomb thinking that she might somehow come out of whatever she`s in. And then she agrees with it, and it somehow has the reverse effect you were expecting...of course i could be wrong.

I think if there was some intimacy in your relationship, things would be a lot better between the two of you, there`s no affection...nothing. As a couple you need that, and I question why she hasn`t wanted that in your relationship for two years. It`s more than a depression, she`s still functioning fairly well, maybe stressed, but functioning.

On one hand some time apart may make her see how much she misses you, wants you, loves you. On the other hand, it changes nothing. 

You can only decide. It`s about what you`re willing to live with. Someone once said that to me when I told them my old cat pissed in my toaster, (you read right), we only realized it when H made toast lol, the whole house reeked. I was fed up, almost in tears. Yep, had to put him down. Yes, I said CAT lol


----------



## Chaparral

Can't remember if this has been covered but does she simply refuse to have sex or have you quit trying to intiate? Was this discussed in MC?


----------



## warlock07

DailyGrind said:


> Why? Isn't the 180 supposed to be for me? To get me focused on detachment?



You were already doing 180 before you you decided to jump back into the marriage didn't you?



> Can't remember if this has been covered but does she simply refuse to have sex or have you quit trying to intiate? Was this discussed in MC?


I think she was lying like a dead fish when DG eventually go fed up and stopped initiating or something like that


----------



## DailyGrind

Yes..she was lying like a fish. I stopped initiating...and she's not since given me any reason to think otherwise. She admitted to her EAsbe went cold, as well.

I swear you can't make this crap up....found out tonight that my assistant (who I share with our CFO and CEO) was been having a 2 1/2 year affair with my boss (the CFO..who I have ENOMOUS respect for.). This is REALLY shaking my world, right now. I've always been friends with my assistant. In fact she is one of the few people I've shared my marriage problems with. Funny thing...I asked my boss out to lunch today, to apologise for NOT being 150%, as I 've always been, over the past couple months. He's been verry supportve of me with this whole ordeal. In fact, he was the one I first told about W's EA. he was texting me about work stuff; the night I was monitoring w's emails to AP. I remember responding to him...."I'm just sitting here watching my W's emails as she is making plans with this other guy.". He's been VERY supporive since. But I've been feeling guilty about not being my normal working slf, since. Then, tonight, I find out about this affair. It is REALLY shaking my whole foundation about marriage. He's got three kids, and a 25 year marriage!! I have ALWAYS respectected him immnsely.....WOW! REALLY??!! His wife's story could very well be MY story........i'm really just completely shaken, right now!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

DG,
You really do know what to do. You know. You claim you have been at this for two years but read your thread, you have been at this since your totally sexless honeymoon. 

After 12 years and her ea and her concept of trying is not being conversationally cold while trying to find the bottom of your wallet.




UOTE=DailyGrind;611730]Yes...I do. But I also get some conflicting advice. Some say go nuclear...some say I'm too hard. Some say I pushed it in MC...other's say I didn't say enough. I was too harsh with asking her about separation...but then get applauds for telling her to find an apartment. Head is spinning. Besides...she was showing possible progress. But when she could only come up with "I don't know" in MC....I realized she really wasn't. She was being nicer...but it didn't mean anything.

I realize....it seems she just doesn't want to be the bad guy, and call this time of death. I know (in my head) I need to .....but also...that makes me the bad guy to my kids. It is just hard.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

I think her EA(It was inappropriate, but was it an EA?) is pretty insignificant compared to some other things she did(or did not do) in the marriage. Unless she is hiding something else, the impact of this supposed EA is pretty minimal and shouldn't be getting as much importance as DG is giving it.


----------



## bandit.45

> I think her EA(It was inappropriate, but was it an EA?) is pretty insignificant compared to some other things she did(or did not do) in the marriage. Unless she is hiding something else, the impact of this supposed EA is pretty minimal and shouldn't be getting as much importance as DG is giving it.


Agreed. 

This minute EA pales in comparison to the other atrocities this woman has perpetrated on the OP and their marriage. 

Her general malais, lack of emotion and unloving attitude towards her husband has been going on since the honeymoon. And she keeps getting a pass on it! 

Unbelievable.


----------



## golfergirl

bandit.45 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> This minute EA pales in comparison to the other atrocities this woman has perpetrated on the OP and their marriage.
> 
> Her general malais, lack of emotion and unloving attitude towards her husband has been going on since the honeymoon. And she keeps getting a pass on it!
> 
> Unbelievable.


And impatience with her children. All she does is go into a cold pout and off she goes to bed while DG handles every day life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

^ That or DG is too over bearing and single minded that she has given up on him a long back. This is one of the most confusing/conflicting threads that I've read on TAM. 

While DG is doing the best he can, I can understand( though not necessarily agree) why the wife wouldn't trust him 2 months into bugging her car. Maybe that is why she feels that his love is fake


----------



## UCanTalk

We've only heard DG's perspective so who knows that she has/is thinking/feeling?

DG how was the relationship before you were married? when did things change if they ever did or was she like this from day 1?


----------



## working_together

UCanTalk said:


> We've only heard DG's perspective so who knows that she has/is thinking/feeling?
> 
> DG how was the relationship before you were married? when did things change if they ever did or was she like this from day 1?


according to DG, she was very passionate before they were married. The honeymoon seemed to be the beginning of the end with sea sickness etc.

Then there's the cat issue, the tomatoe plants, the boat, lots of stuff she has resentment about. I think she holds a grudge very easily, but we only hear one side.


----------



## UCanTalk

working_together said:


> according to DG, she was very passionate before they were married. The honeymoon seemed to be the beginning of the end with sea sickness etc.
> .


Did they live together before they married? 

My relationship issues started when we moved in together. I felt I had "captured" her (ouch that sounds awful) and stopped putting on an act of Mr Nice Guy and started being myself and all my co-dependent ways started to emerge. I didn't appreciate this until I had a LOT of therapy as I was way to defensive and egocentric to even consider such a proposition before. 

If there was passion in his relationship before, something must have changed for his wife to change. That said, it takes 2 to tango so both were likely playing this dance together.

Just my 2 cents worth


----------



## Chaparral

DG, what is going on since you told her to find an apartment?


----------



## DailyGrind

Hey guys..thanks for all the posts. I haven't talked to my wife yet. I planned a daddy day with the kids today....so I'm out and about today. Since I went out after work, yesterday...I got home around 10:00....everybody in bed already. I don't know what she plans for today. We saw each other this morning....but i'm full 180 right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

DG read this post. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/41148-update-my-marriage.html


----------



## Beowulf

chapparal said:


> DG read this post.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/41148-update-my-marriage.html


Nice chap. Extremely relevant and timely. :smthumbup:


----------



## DailyGrind

Okay....Latest Update:

Today is Sunday. We finally had our talk today. I told her that I would like to know what "Space" means to her....'What does that look like?'

She said..."I don't know what it looks like. I don't know what it means. I don't know what I want. I thought you wanted me to move out?"

I told her the only reason I sent her the text about separation, was that the night before, in MC, when I asked her if she wanted a divorce....she seemed so much like she wanted to say Yes...but was afraid to.

She responded "I don't WANT a divoooorrceeeee............" leaving a "but" hanging in the air.
I said 'But??'
".......I don't know.....I just need some space to figure things out."

Boy....is that not the classic line on this forum?

So...I told her...'I'm getting my bonus in less than two weeks. We just might be able to afford an apartment for you, to figure your space out, then. Of course...the WD trip would be out.' She immediately sparked up..."We've been talking to the kids about this trip. We HAVE to go."

I told her...'We can't afford it. I think the kids will benefit better from a stable environment (be us separated or together)...than one trip to Disney."

She agreed...but said she could put this off until next year..so we didn't have to forgo the trip. I told we no....we can't afford it.

The important points are A) "I just need some space to figure things out" and; B) She wasn't really saying no about moving out...just didn't want to have it affect the Disney trip.

I then told her...I don't know exactly how much my bonus will be. For all I know...it will be half what I'm planning. It could also be double....who knows. 'We should wait until the 14th to make any decisions..when I know exactly how much it is.'

She agreed. And we left it at that.

My thinking is if I can get her to move out...it will either hasten her "figuring it out".....and one way or another...end this limbo.

I also told her I thought she was depressed. I said...'I don't know if your depression is a RESULT of what you are going through....or CAUSED what you are going through...but I think you need to go to IC.' She said "maybe." We also agreed that MC wasn't really accomplishing anything....and after $2,000 ...we really haven't made much headway. I also said I didn't know if there was someone else in her heart. Of course, she quickly barked "There's NOT!"

I really don't know what is going on in her head. A big part of me thinks if I just go ahead and file...it will force the issue. On the other hand...my biggest issue with filing is how to get her out of the house. So...either way...i should wait until my bonus...and see if she uses that opportunity to move out. If she does....that would be the most opportune time to file...as I won't have to figure out how to kick her out. Should be an interesting next couple weeks.


----------



## MEM2020

Your marriage is gasping out it's last breaths. 

Your W continues to offer no clarity, no commitment to you/the marriage and no timeframe for anything at all. 

And in the midst of all this she has only one clear and consistent motivation: Going to DW. 

That's it. On every other point she has no timeframe, no clarity, no plan of action and no real focus on resolution. 

There is a "spectrum" that loosely goes like this: I am unhappy and don't really want to be with you, but don't want to have to deal with the hassle of a divorce. As to what I am unhappy about:
A) I am not able/willing to tell you what I need from YOU, to make things better. So just leave me alone for an open ended period of time - well leave me alone except for when I want something like a luxury vacation. 
B) I know what I want (quit my job, continue my EA, etc.) but those things are not achievable/practical/acceptable to my spouse so why bother bringing them up.
C) I know what I want, have clearly described it to you, it is reasonable, you are doing it and the marriage is healing. 

DG,
Compare her current behavior to that of what you experienced before marriage in a healthy relationship you had with a GF prior to meeting your W.




DailyGrind said:


> Okay....Latest Update:
> 
> Today is Sunday. We finally had our talk today. I told her that I would like to know what "Space" means to her....'What does that look like?'
> 
> She said..."I don't know what it looks like. I don't know what it means. I don't know what I want. I thought you wanted me to move out?"
> 
> I told her the only reason I sent her the text about separation, was that the night before, in MC, when I asked her if she wanted a divorce....she seemed so much like she wanted to say Yes...but was afraid to.
> 
> She responded "I don't WANT a divoooorrceeeee............" leaving a "but" hanging in the air.
> I said 'But??'
> ".......I don't know.....I just need some space to figure things out."
> 
> Boy....is that not the classic line on this forum?
> 
> So...I told her...'I'm getting my bonus in less than two weeks. We just might be able to afford an apartment for you, to figure your space out, then. Of course...the WD trip would be out.' She immediately sparked up..."We've been talking to the kids about this trip. We HAVE to go."
> 
> I told her...'We can't afford it. I think the kids will benefit better from a stable environment (be us separated or together)...than one trip to Disney."
> 
> She agreed...but said she could put this off until next year..so we didn't have to forgo the trip. I told we no....we can't afford it.
> 
> The important points are A) "I just need some space to figure things out" and; B) She wasn't really saying no about moving out...just didn't want to have it affect the Disney trip.
> 
> I then told her...I don't know exactly how much my bonus will be. For all I know...it will be half what I'm planning. It could also be double....who knows. 'We should wait until the 14th to make any decisions..when I know exactly how much it is.'
> 
> She agreed. And we left it at that.
> 
> My thinking is if I can get her to move out...it will either hasten her "figuring it out".....and one way or another...end this limbo.
> 
> I also told her I thought she was depressed. I said...'I don't know if your depression is a RESULT of what you are going through....or CAUSED what you are going through...but I think you need to go to IC.' She said "maybe." We also agreed that MC wasn't really accomplishing anything....and after $2,000 ...we really haven't made much headway. I also said I didn't know if there was someone else in her heart. Of course, she quickly barked "There's NOT!"
> 
> I really don't know what is going on in her head. A big part of me thinks if I just go ahead and file...it will force the issue. On the other hand...my biggest issue with filing is how to get her out of the house. So...either way...i should wait until my bonus...and see if she uses that opportunity to move out. If she does....that would be the most opportune time to file...as I won't have to figure out how to kick her out. Should be an interesting next couple weeks.


----------



## DailyGrind

MEM11363 said:


> Your marriage is gasping out it's last breaths.
> 
> Your W continues to offer no clarity, no commitment to you/the marriage and no timeframe for anything at all.
> 
> And in the midst of all this she has only one clear and consistent motivation: Going to DW.
> 
> That's it. On every other point she has no timeframe, no clarity, no plan of action and no real focus on resolution.
> 
> There is a "spectrum" that loosely goes like this: I am unhappy and don't really want to be with you, but don't want to have to deal with the hassle of a divorce. As to what I am unhappy about:
> A) I am not able/willing to tell you what I need from YOU, to make things better. So just leave me alone for an open ended period of time - well leave me alone except for when I want something like a luxury vacation.
> B) I know what I want (quit my job, continue my EA, etc.) but those things are not achievable/practical/acceptable to my spouse so why bother bringing them up.
> C) I know what I want, have clearly described it to you, it is reasonable, you are doing it and the marriage is healing.
> 
> DG,
> Compare her current behavior to that of what you experienced before marriage in a healthy relationship you had with a GF prior to meeting your W.


So...how do I combat this "Spectrum?" She's back to being nice to me again. WTF? Just cause I gave her a 1 1/2 week reprieve? Maybe I like being mind-f*cked....being as how that is the only kind I get.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> So...how do I combat this "Spectrum?" She's back to being nice to me again. WTF? Just cause I gave her a 1 1/2 week reprieve? Maybe I like being mind-f*cked....being as how that is the only kind I get.


Your surprised? After reading here so long? She simply doesn't know if she can trust you. The next time you talk ask her if she can trust you to do the right thing. Not now, don't blow a good thing. 

She's being nice because she thinks you may leave her. That you can pull the plug.


----------



## golfergirl

chapparal said:


> Your surprised? After reading here so long? She simply doesn't know if she can trust you. The next time you talk ask her if she can trust you to do the right thing. Not now, don't blow a good thing.
> 
> She's being nice because she thinks you may leave her. That you can pull the plug.


She's being nice because she gets luxury of comfortable life and trips and no demands on her for anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

golfergirl said:


> She's being nice because she gets luxury of comfortable life and trips and no demands on her for anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well...I think I made it clear that WASN'T happening. I also did bring up the Barcelona trip at MC....that I didn't know why she wanted to go....to go with me, or just get a trip to Barcelona. She didn't answer. But, she certainly knows I'm questioning her motives.


----------



## MEM2020

DG,
You don't mean that. Even in your current state you don't believe that for a wife nice = not wanting an immediate divorce, and not being overtly cold to you

That isn't "nice". It is the absence of overt, immediate hostility. 

NICE = Acting in a loving manner in terms of affection, compliments, spending quality time with you and focusing on you during that time, performing acts of service and yes sex. 

She isn't being nice. And you know that at best she will momentarily "pretend" to be nice if you blow 4K on DW. 

DG - after 12 years without it, you seem to have forgotten what nice is. 



DailyGrind said:


> So...how do I combat this "Spectrum?" She's back to being nice to me again. WTF? Just cause I gave her a 1 1/2 week reprieve? Maybe I like being mind-f*cked....being as how that is the only kind I get.


----------



## bandit.45

DailyGrind said:


> Well...I think I made it clear that WASN'T happening. I also did bring up the Barcelona trip at MC....that I didn't know why she wanted to go....to go with me, or just get a trip to Barcelona. She didn't answer. But, she certainly knows I'm questioning her motives.


Like I said before. Go to Barcelona by yourself. Oh and buy some nice designer clothes before you go. Get yourself dandied up and let her see you before you leave. Make her jealous and piss her off!


----------



## DailyGrind

MEM11363 said:


> DG,
> You don't mean that. Even in your current state you don't believe that for a wife nice = not wanting an immediate divorce, and not being overtly cold to you
> 
> That isn't "nice". It is the absence of overt, immediate hostility.
> 
> NICE = Acting in a loving manner in terms of affection, compliments, spending quality time with you and focusing on you during that time, performing acts of service and yes sex.
> 
> She isn't being nice. And you know that at best she will momentarily "pretend" to be nice if you blow 4K on DW.
> 
> DG - after 12 years without it, you seem to have forgotten what nice is.


Yes...I have forgotten. {sigh}


----------



## Chaparral

I think you should apraoch her for sex soon. I doubt she rarely ever initiated, is that correct? If she says no, I would ask her if she cared if you got relief somewhere else.


----------



## Chaparral

MEM11363 said:


> DG,
> You don't mean that. Even in your current state you don't believe that for a wife nice = not wanting an immediate divorce, and not being overtly cold to you
> 
> That isn't "nice". It is the absence of overt, immediate hostility.
> 
> NICE = Acting in a loving manner in terms of affection, compliments, spending quality time with you and focusing on you during that time, performing acts of service and yes sex.
> 
> She isn't being nice. And you know that at best she will momentarily "pretend" to be nice if you blow 4K on DW.
> 
> DG - after 12 years without it, you seem to have forgotten what nice is.



Has he tried to have sex with her since she started to thaw?


----------



## DailyGrind

bandit.45 said:


> Like I said before. Go to Barcelona by yourself. Oh and buy some nice designer clothes before you go. Get yourself dandied up and let her see you before you leave. Make her jealous and piss her off!


Oh...it would take a miracle for me to take her. She has seen me go to Amsterdam, Dublin and Shanghai/Beijing (last year.) Places I would have LOVED to take her. But it wasn't even an option last year. I've mentioned, in the past, that there will come a time (this year being the first) where we could consider her going on some of these trips. It just boggles my mind that she seems to be throwing everything away JUST when things were getting to a point where we could REALLY be starting to have a lot of fun. Just crazy.

I also have a potential trip to Brazil, within another year or two. Dubai, UK, Shanghai/Beijing...LA, Dallas, and all kinds of other places are in the future. I'll probably go to Shanghai/Beijing annually. Future conferences in Germany, Poland, Amsterdam, Czech, France....all very possible. And that isn't even counting all the places we are just getting to be able to afford for regular vacations. Very crazy.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Has he tried to have sex with her since she started to thaw?


No...I haven't. How does one even do that...when their spouse seems one foot out the door?


----------



## bandit.45

> I also have a potential trip to Brazil, within another year or two. Dubai, UK, Shanghai/Beijing...LA, Dallas, and all kinds of other places are in the future. I'll probably go to Shanghai/Beijing annually. Future conferences in Germany, Poland, Amsterdam, Czech, France....all very possible. And that isn't even counting all the places we are just getting to be able to afford for regular vacations. Very crazy.


All places where gorgeous women abound, and you tie yourself down to this cold fish....

Man oh man.


----------



## DailyGrind

bandit.45 said:


> All places where gorgeous women abound, and you tie yourself down to this cold fish....
> 
> Man oh man.


Well...I've been to Amsterdam a few times. All the hot women are from France, Germany, Poland, Czech.....lol. They don't originate there. he, he.

Hungary and Spain....phenominal looking women.

Point taken, though.


----------



## Chaparral

You go to bed together sometimes now, right? You reach over and pull her to you. If she comes great. If she doesn't ask her why. Then you tell her what you two have is a sexless mariage with only one of you in love. Hasta la vista baby.


----------



## Chaparral

Vaya con Dios would be better.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> You go to bed together sometimes now, right? You reach over and pull her to you. If she comes great. If she doesn't ask her why. Then you tell her what you two have is a sexless mariage with only one of you in love. Hasta la vista baby.


Sure fire recipe for getting laughed in my face....but hey...maybe worth a try. Can't imagine THAT rejection would be any worse than what I've BEEN experiencing.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> No...I haven't. How does one even do that...when their spouse seems one foot out the door?


As long as the other foot is in the bedroom who the hell cares! For as long as you've gone without sex do you really give a rat's a$$ if the foot that is out the door is stepping in a pile of dog sh!t? If the rest of her is accessible take her like Grant took Richmond.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Sure fire recipe for getting laughed in my face....but hey...maybe worth a try. Can't imagine THAT rejection would be any worse than what I've BEEN experiencing.


Another thing you might tell her if she refuses you. " And you wonder why I think you have another man? If you don't you might as well have."


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Another thing you might tell her if she refuses you. " And you wonder why I think you have another man? If you don't you might as well have."


Okay...so she was sitting at the dinner table, playing on her iPhone (plays some word game.) I sat down and said 'I've been thinking....maybe we need to have sex.' 

She started laughing (not the laughing AT me...but where did THAT come from, kind of laughing. Then she said "you think?" I said...'yes.' "Why?" 'Cause it is a bonding thing to do...and it's been two years for me.' "It's been that long for me too...are you thinking it hasn't?" 'No...just saying.'

She laughed a bit more than said "I guess I could think about it."

Then I helped her with a couple of her words. A few minutes later....'you realize I'm serious, right?' She smiles..."yes. something to think about."

Annnndddd...that's how it was left.


----------



## the guy

Are you going to grap her and take it? Maybe it wasn't a suggestion, but a warning? LOL

You are correct sir sex is bonding, and taking our wives is all about the response we get from them when we do this. Sure rejection sucks but a more alpha approach could have lead to a " let me get ready" versus "let me think about it" .

Make no mistake, I'm coming out of left field here, and you have been around long enough to know how I'm wired, so I'm just throwing it out there.


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> No...I haven't. How does one even do that...when their spouse seems one foot out the door?


You have to take the risk, at this point what have you got to lose...seriously?


----------



## DailyGrind

SlappySlapSlap said:


> OK, i'm a long time lurker and have never felt the need to register......until now.
> 
> DUUUUDEEEEE, this made me cringe.
> 
> You don't ask a girl for sex like it's a buisness proposition. 'According to the aforementioned guidelines, we should engage in coitus. Just sign here....and here.....AANND here'.
> 
> You're married so you should know this, but girls like to be romanced. Be spontaneous and sexy. Take control. Even though she is your wife, she's still going to laugh when you approach it like an accountant. She want to have sex with you, you're just not giving her a good reason to.
> 
> tl;dr: Crack out the Barry White and Sauvignon Blanc and romance that woman!


First...I was trying to be cute. Second...too late for any romancing tonight. It's her bedtime already.....and nothing would happen tonight. I guess I'll ask her for a date on Friday...and make a move then. Let the idea simmer. She was NEVER a spontaneous sex type person. Always insisted on being showered first.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> First...I was trying to be cute. Second...too late for any romancing tonight. It's her bedtime already.....and nothing would happen tonight. I guess I'll ask her for a date on Friday...and make a move then. Let the idea simmer. She was NEVER a spontaneous sex type person. Always insisted on being showered first.


Ok, on Tues and Thurs there are multiple episodes of The Big Bang Theory on TBS(I think). Watch these shows. It will tell you exactly how NOT to romance(get in bed with) a woman.

Sounds like she thought you were cute anyway.

You can tell her several hundred (thosusand?) people on the internet are conspiring to ....................oh well, nevermind. LOL


----------



## working_together

Ok, here's a female perspective...

You go to bed when she does (you can get up later), and you start gently massaging her back, shoulders, etc. If she likes her hair played with, do it, whatever she used to like...do it. And if nothing comes from it, at least there was touching involved right? If she doesn't move away, or laugh, or say something that makes you feel rejected, you step it up a bit, and so forth. Just don't dive in.....


----------



## dymo

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Yep! And why wait until Friday or a shower for that matter. Just do it. What do you have to lose? Nothing!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I was going to do it after 2 years of nothing, I'd want to do it right. Take my time, lay the groundwork, etc.


----------



## Humble Pie

DailyGrind said:


> The only reason it is impatient is because she won't talk. I'm paying $200/hr and she won't talk.....not to mention even show up on time. Nor is she doing anything. I keep readin on this forum that that the WS needs to show remorse....bit I'm not getting any of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you were planning on now setting conditions (openly- most of your conditions are not open to her... i.e. the Mid-March deadline) then I would suggest you make this one of them...

No more MC if she is not a participant, and will only resume once she agrees to be an active member.


----------



## Humble Pie

chapparal said:


> ..'Do you want a separation?' She didn't respond...so I emailed her work email that I sent her a text. Still no response.
> 
> However you want to look at it, you are pushing her into it. A few days ago she was excited about a trip to Barcelona and now she has been ordered to get an apartment.


:smthumbup:totaly agree


----------



## Humble Pie

DailyGrind said:


> Okay...so she was sitting at the dinner table, playing on her iPhone (plays some word game.) I sat down and said 'I've been thinking....maybe we need to have sex.'
> 
> She started laughing (not the laughing AT me...but where did THAT come from, kind of laughing. Then she said "you think?" I said...'yes.' "Why?" 'Cause it is a bonding thing to do...and it's been two years for me.' "It's been that long for me too...are you thinking it hasn't?" 'No...just saying.'
> 
> She laughed a bit more than said "I guess I could think about it."
> 
> Then I helped her with a couple of her words. A few minutes later....'you realize I'm serious, right?' She smiles..."yes. something to think about."
> 
> Annnndddd...that's how it was left.


Wow, it sounds like your wife was keen on this transaction! That is great/positive news for you DG! I wouldn't waist time lingering about it tho... take action.


----------



## DailyGrind

dymo said:


> If I was going to do it after 2 years of nothing, I'd want to do it right. Take my time, lay the groundwork, etc.


That's what I am thinking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

> It's her bedtime already.....and nothing would happen tonight.


:rofl: Yeah, the Queen needs her beauty sleep. Meanwhile the drone waits in the antechamber!

Oh man, this just keeps getting better and better!


----------



## Beowulf

I just don't understand things sometimes. I have never ever asked for sex. I am always touching her, flirting with her, communicating my need for sex regardless of the time of day. I don't make a huge production about sex. The default on sex is always unless someone is legitimately sick. Even when we had young children we always made time for sex. Even when our work schedules conflicted we always made time for sex. To me it's like breathing or eating. It's a biological need that cannot be ignored.

I understand DG has had problems getting his wife to have sex with him. I just don't understand why he can't force *HER* to say no. Make *HER* shove you away. Make *HER* slap your hands if you get fresh touching her. Make *HER* make the decision. Don't make it for her. If she does push you away then don't make a big deal out of it. Come back the next day and do the exact damn same thing. If she complains that you are touching her or flirting with her too much then simply say _"we're married, that's what married people do. If you don't like it then you can do something about it by not being married anymore."_ Then give her your best bad boy smile and walk away. 

Am I wrong here? Walking on eggshells is not foreplay.


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> I just don't understand things sometimes. I have never ever asked for sex. I am always touching her, flirting with her, communicating my need for sex regardless of the time of day. I don't make a huge production about sex. The default on sex is always unless someone is legitimately sick. Even when we had young children we always made time for sex. Even when our work schedules conflicted we always made time for sex. To me it's like breathing or eating. It's a biological need that cannot be ignored.
> 
> I understand DG has had problems getting his wife to have sex with him. I just don't understand why he can't force *HER* to say no. Make *HER* shove you away. Make *HER* slap your hands if you get fresh touching her. Make *HER* make the decision. Don't make it for her. If she does push you away then don't make a big deal out of it. Come back the next day and do the exact damn same thing. If she complains that you are touching her or flirting with her too much then simply say _"we're married, that's what married people do. If you don't like it then you can do something about it by not being married anymore."_ Then give her your best bad boy smile and walk away.
> 
> Am I wrong here? Walking on eggshells is not foreplay.


No...you are not wrong. But understand....Up until I said this to her last night...we were heading fast in the opposite direction. Maybe we put the skids on yesterday...I don't know. I planted the idea that I wanted to (after two years of complete cold sholder.) Sometime this week...I WILL make a move...as you suggest...and see her reaction. To be honest.....I was expecting outright rejection last night. It took me off guard. The wheels have been in a rut for so long....that once you catch a glimpse of movement...you kinda stand there in shock for a minute, wondering.....did something just happen? I mean...it was only 4 hours earlier when she was pretty much admitting she wanted to move out. I STILL don't know that is not what is in her mind.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> You are absolutley right, Beowolf. It took me 20 years to figure that out but I evidentially did. My poor husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You do realize what a big step going from not even holding hands....to full-on naked contact...right? Yes....we are husband/wife on paper...but, let's face it.....in reality, we've been nothing but roommates for a long time.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> No...you are not wrong. But understand....Up until I said this to her last night...we were heading fast in the opposite direction. Maybe we put the skids on yesterday...I don't know. I planted the idea that I wanted to (after two years of complete cold sholder.) Sometime this week...I WILL make a move...as you suggest...and see her reaction. To be honest.....I was expecting outright rejection last night. It took me off guard. The wheels have been in a rut for so long....that once you catch a glimpse of movement...you kinda stand there in shock for a minute, wondering.....did something just happen? I mean...it was only 4 hours earlier when she was pretty much admitting she wanted to move out. I STILL don't know that is not what is in her mind.


No, don't misunderstand. I think that what you posted is definitely progress. I really am pulling for you and the misses to work things out.

I guess what I don't understand is how exactly does a man get rejected if he isn't really asking but making her say no? I would think if you keep pushing the sex issue eventually she will either find a way to get motivated or she'll get sick of you and leave. Either way its a resolution.

I'm just trying to see why it's been so hard for you to break this emotional blockage with her.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> You do realize what a big step going from not even holding hands....to full-on naked contact...right? Yes....we are husband/wife on paper...but, let's face it.....in reality, we've been nothing but roommates for a long time.


So if you went to take her hand she would pull away? She would slap you? If so then tell her married people hold hands and since you're still married...yeah.

If she doesn't pull away then hold her hand. Physical contact releases dopamine in the brain and causes you to bond as well. Sex is not that far off then.


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> No, don't misunderstand. I think that what you posted is definitely progress. I really am pulling for you and the misses to work things out.
> 
> I guess what I don't understand is how exactly does a man get rejected if he isn't really asking but making her say no? I would think if you keep pushing the sex issue eventually she will either find a way to get motivated or she'll get sick of you and leave. Either way its a resolution.
> 
> I'm just trying to see why it's been so hard for you to break this emotional blockage with her.


Well...remember..we weren't even sleeping together, until two months ago. Up until about two weeks ago (once I DID restart sleeping in the bed), if our bodies even remotely touched during the night....she would recoil. Yes...there has been some progress. My only issue at last week's MC was that we are getting closer because *I* am moving towards HER. She needs to do some movement towards ME, as well. Separating, and moving out is NOT evidence of that.


----------



## warlock07

Suggest BDSM, you know cuffs, whips and chains :rofl: 


Sorry DG, this is highly inappropriate but couldn't resist. :smthumbup:


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Well...remember..we weren't even sleeping together, until two months ago. Up until about two weeks ago (once I DID restart sleeping in the bed), if our bodies even remotely touched during the night....she would recoil. Yes...there has been some progress. My only issue at last week's MC was that we are getting closer because *I* am moving towards HER. She needs to do some movement towards ME, as well. Separating, and moving out is NOT evidence of that.


Then don't push the separation issue. Make her make *that* call. Don't make it for her. But as far as who moves toward who. You are the man. You lead the marriage. You make the decisions. Don't let her dictate what happens or where it goes. Vacations...your call. Sex...your call. Touching flirting...your call. Take her hand and put it in yours. Do it confidently. Make her outright reject the advance. You need to lose your resentment over what has happened. Make a new start. You are the captain. She is the first officer. You can listen to her...her opinions matter...but it's your call. BTW, divorce...also your call. But you have to make the call. Don't avoid the issues or waffle back and forth. Be confident and resolute. Women hate a man that can't or won't make a decision.

Edit: Never, ever get into this:

What do you want to do.
I don't know, what do you want to do.
I don't know, whatever you want to do is fine.
Well, tell me what you want to do.
I'll do whatever you want.

It's a damned merry go round.

Just say, this is what we're going to do. And then do it.

That's the mindset.


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> Women hate a man that can't or won't make a decision.


Funny you say that. During MC, one of the things she said was that she was initially attracted to me because I WAS strong and made decisions, and wasn't afraid to lead. But then she felt I took it too far.....but she couldn't come up with any concrete examples of that. So...YES....she wants to be lead. But she doesn't want to be controlled. Hard to figure out where that line is...when she doesn't talk to me about such things. But hey...I'll give it a try.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Yes, I realize that. I went 18 years not holding my husbands hand and never kissing him, even when we did have sex, I would not kiss him. It was the same robitic sex (when we did have it).
> 
> All I am saying from my experience (and I was just like your wife) is you need to be more Alpha and take the lead.


Alright...I'll dig out my viking costume.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Funny you say that. During MC, one of the things she said was that she was initially attracted to me because I WAS strong and made decisions, and wasn't afraid to lead. But then she felt I took it too far.....but she couldn't come up with any concrete examples of that. So...YES....she wants to be lead. But she doesn't want to be controlled. Hard to figure out where that line is...when she doesn't talk to me about such things. But hey...I'll give it a try.


The point between leading and controlling is you walking ahead and allowing her to follow or staying behind her and pushing her along. How can you control anyone else? You can only control you. Once in a while (rarely) my wife tries to pull the controlling card. I just tell her that she is a free woman and can walk at any time. I'm just living my life and if she doesn't want to come along...fine.

I guess my point is that you have become so afraid to do anything that you end up doing nothing. You seem to spend a great amount of time trying to predict how she is going to react rather than doing it and letting her react. Don't wonder how she'll react if you take her hand. Take her hand and let her react. Don't ask her or try to predict how she'll react if you make a move for sex. Just flirt, touch and make a move. I think you are so busy trying to figure her out that you have lost who you are. Find yourself, lose the resentment and make her decide to follow you or walk away.


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> I guess my point is that you have become so afraid to do anything that you end up doing nothing. You seem to spend a great amount of time trying to predict how she is going to react rather than doing it and letting her react. Don't wonder how she'll react if you take her hand. Take her hand and let her react. Don't ask her or try to predict how she'll react if you make a move for sex. Just flirt, touch and make a move. I think you are so busy trying to figure her out that you have lost who you are. Find yourself, lose the resentment and make her decide to follow you or walk away.


Good points. Thanks!


----------



## Chaparral

When you draw a blank from her, whether actions or convos, resist the need to fill in the blank. When she says she doesn't know accept it instead of trying to figure out what she really is thinking. It will work its way out.

Her moving out? You said she thought you wanted her to move out.

If my wife recoiled at my touch in bed, she would keep recoiling until she was on the floor. Of course I would make it look like I was having fun scooting up closer and closer till she went over the side. LOL


----------



## warlock07

Just remembered this but there were some stories where the communication in these online affairs were taking place through in-chat applications in many games. You mentioned that she was playing some Word games on her phone right ? A few of the stories here had the WS keep in contact with the OM through chatting applications in these games. But be careful. I might just be sending you through another wild goose chase and ride through hell here.(you already had a few with the VAR) 


Am I making sense here?


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Just remembered this but there were some stories where the communication in these online affairs were taking place through in-chat applications in many games. You mentioned that she was playing some Word games on her phone right ? A few of the stories here had the WS keep in contact with the OM through chatting applications in these games. But be careful. I might just be sending you through another wild goose chase and ride through hell here.(you already had a few with the VAR)
> 
> 
> Am I making sense here?


Yes, you are. Trust me...I've was very leary of the iPhone, when we got it for her. She isn't playing Word with Friends (at least not yet.) I saw the game...it is a standalone game. But, yes...I'm aware of that loophole. Thanks for thinking of me, though. 

Nothing new to report. I had a late conference call, last night...and pool league tonight. So, I guess tomorrow night is my "make my move night."


----------



## warlock07

DailyGrind said:


> Yes, you are. Trust me...I've was very leary of the iPhone, when we got it for her. She isn't playing Word with Friends (at least not yet.) I saw the game...it is a standalone game. But, yes...I'm aware of that loophole. Thanks for thinking of me, though.
> 
> Nothing new to report. I had a late conference call, last night...and pool league tonight. So, I guess tomorrow night is my "make my move night."


Got the cuffs and the whip ready?


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Got the cuffs and the whip ready?


CoolWhip......not "Cooool....a whip!" :rofl:


----------



## warlock07

What about 

1) if she rejects

2) dead fish strategy?

3) postponing to a later date()

Considering how you over think sometimes, have you considered these scenarios?


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> What about
> 
> 1) if she rejects
> 
> 2) dead fish strategy?
> 
> 3) postponing to a later date()
> 
> Considering how you over think sometimes, have you considered these scenarios?


I have no reason to believe all three strategies WON'T be employed. Yes...I have considered them. But I guess I won't know until I try. At the same time...I'll be waiting to see if she does wind up moving out.......or evaluating if she is NOT moving out (yet) to simply keep from cancelling the Disney trip. I don't imagine I will do the Disney trip, if I feel there is even an inkling that she is just biding her time to leave. But then....how would I really know? {sigh}


----------



## golfergirl

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Don't worry about that stuff right now. You have a job to do this week. Be that Alpha man you need to be and have fun.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would take Disney off the table completely. You guys can go anytime.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

golfergirl said:


> I would take Disney off the table completely. You guys can go anytime.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And Barcelona as well. DG seems rightly concerned that she is only in this for the trips. Her responses indicate that those trips are more important than the marriage. Take those off the table and see how interested she is in things.


----------



## working_together

I will bet big bucks that the Disney trip will not be cancelled....She's going to make you feel guilty about it, pull on your heart strings, you'll feel bad about letting the kids down....and so forth. 

Depending on how tomorrow night turns out, I guess there's a lot at stake here....


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> I will bet big bucks that the Disney trip will not be cancelled....She's going to make you feel guilty about it, pull on your heart strings, you'll feel bad about letting the kids down....and so forth.
> 
> Depending on how tomorrow night turns out, I guess there's a lot at stake here....


I think, when I get my bonus next week...I will sit down with her again.....see if I'm still getting the "I don't know"....."I need space to figure out what I want"....(earie how similar that is to cheater's talk....but just can't nail that down).....I'll tell her the DW trip is off. I'll tell her I'll figure out a way to take the kids, myself.....maybe in the Fall. Then....just let her go. I mean...can anyone fathom a reason for her to want this space (really)....if there is no one else in her heart (which she denies...but don't they all)?


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> I think, when I get my bonus next week...I will sit down with her again.....see if I'm still getting the "I don't know"....."I need space to figure out what I want"....(earie how similar that is to cheater's talk....but just can't nail that down).....I'll tell her the DW trip is off. I'll tell her I'll figure out a way to take the kids, myself.....maybe in the Fall. Then....just let her go. I mean...can anyone fathom a reason for her to want this space (really)....if there is no one else in her heart (which she denies...but don't they all)?



She might be using some of the cheaters script, but mostly she's not. I really doubt she's having an affair. She seems to be questioning things maybe, ya know? like "is this all there is to a marriage, being a wife, a mother". She wouldn't be the first woman or man to have those questions. The problem is, is what does she do with that feeling. It could be a good thing in terms of making some great changes in a relationship, really trying to make it work, or, it leads to giving up, and finding love elsewhere. With your wife, I don't know which is it.

I think you might have to "let her go", and see how she reacts, she knows you are devoted to her, and love her very much, and she also doesn't think you will ever leave. She might just freak out, and make the changes you've wanted for so long. 

Are you willing to take that risk??? Because in the end, you will have a definate answer.


----------



## bandit.45

I wouldn't be takintg this harpy on any trips until she straightens up her attitude.

But if you do take her to Barcelona or Disney World, make sure she packs her really hot bikinis, so that she can spend every day tempting you with her body just to deny you sex at night... just like she has since your honeymoon...


----------



## working_together

bandit.45 said:


> I wouldn't be takintg this harpy on any trips until she straightens up her attitude.
> 
> But if you do take her to Barcelona or Disney World, make sure she packs her really hot bikinis, so that she can spend every day tempting you with her body just to deny you sex at night... just like she has since your honeymoon...


That's harsh....but yeah, she won't be having sex with him during the trip. It's really freakin' sad.


----------



## LovesHerMan

It's good that you are finally coming to a resolution about your situation. Your wife has taken advantage of your good nature for too long. She needs to be a full participant in your marriage, or you will be taking auditions for a new wife.


----------



## DailyGrind

bandit.45 said:


> I wouldn't be takintg this harpy on any trips until she straightens up her attitude.
> 
> But if you do take her to Barcelona or Disney World, make sure she packs her really hot bikinis, so that she can spend every day tempting you with her body just to deny you sex at night... just like she has since your honeymoon...


That's what I like about you Bandit.....consistency in approach. :rofl:


----------



## bandit.45

I really am on your side brother.

I just f*cking hate your wife.


----------



## working_together

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that so many marriages are sexless, and have been for years. I'll check out the sex part of the forum, and it's so depressing to read. I think all the people who don't want it should get together with each other, and those who do want it they should unite........man, that would be a happy ending...excuse the pun.


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> I just can't wrap my head around the fact that so many marriages are sexless, and have been for years. I'll check out the sex part of the forum, and it's so depressing to read. I think all the people who don't want it should get together with each other, and those who do want it they should unite........man, that would be a happy ending...excuse the pun.


Great idea!!!


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> That's what I like about you Bandit.....consistency in approach. :rofl:


And the thing is Daily, you guys let this go on so long, that it becomes awkward to even discuss or initiate...tough no doubt. You did well with the convo the other night tho.


----------



## MEM2020

Dg,
You are so very lost. No sane man would take his wife/kids to DW given your current age and net worth. Even a guy with money would never dream of rewarding his wife for:
- 2 years sexlessness with no end in sight
- being told saying ily is over the top
- being told she needs even more than 2 years of space
- having her push for Barcelona

The last bit is big. A decent woman won't take expensive gifts from a man she doesn't care for. It is a basic principle of reciprocity and fairness.

Dude wake up, she doesn't like you and definitely does not care how you feel.

She might sleep with you though because she wants her trips and you are so starve for affection you likely will lose all you bearings after a couple rolls in the hay. So basically for 3 to 4k a pop you can have sex with someone doesn't like you.

Hmmmm



UOTE=DailyGrind;617327]I have no reason to believe all three strategies WON'T be employed. Yes...I have considered them. But I guess I won't know until I try. At the same time...I'll be waiting to see if she does wind up moving out.......or evaluating if she is NOT moving out (yet) to simply keep from cancelling the Disney trip. I don't imagine I will do the Disney trip, if I feel there is even an inkling that she is just biding her time to leave. But then....how would I really know? {sigh}[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Initfortheduration

MEM11363 said:


> Dg,
> You are so very lost. No sane man would take his wife/kids to DW given your current age and net worth. Even a guy with money would never dream of rewarding his wife for:
> - 2 years sexlessness with no end in sight
> - being told saying ily is over the top
> - being told she needs even more than 2 years of space
> - having her push for Barcelona
> 
> The last bit is big. A decent woman won't take expensive gifts from a man she doesn't care for. It is a basic principle of reciprocity and fairness.
> 
> Dude wake up, she doesn't like you and definitely does not care how you feel.
> 
> She might sleep with you though because she wants her trips and you are so starve for affection you likely will lose all you bearings after a couple rolls in the hay. So basically for 3 to 4k a pop you can have sex with someone doesn't like you.
> 
> Hmmmm
> 
> 
> 
> UOTE=DailyGrind;617327]I have no reason to believe all three strategies WON'T be employed. Yes...I have considered them. But I guess I won't know until I try. At the same time...I'll be waiting to see if she does wind up moving out.......or evaluating if she is NOT moving out (yet) to simply keep from cancelling the Disney trip. I don't imagine I will do the Disney trip, if I feel there is even an inkling that she is just biding her time to leave. But then....how would I really know? {sigh}


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Yeah, poor daily should really change his name to yearly grind. That's why I don't come on his thread often. Its a horrible waste of band width. Daily is a black hole of advice. Advice goes in and not even light escapes.


----------



## bandit.45

> She might sleep with you though because she wants her trips and you are so starve for affection you likely will lose all you bearings after a couple rolls in the hay. So basically for 3 to 4k a pop you can have sex with someone doesn't like you.


He can pick up a smoking hot call girl in Barcelona for a quarter that price. At least he'll be getting his money's worth.


----------



## Chaparral

I caught a little bit of a counselor this afternoon on Focus on the Family. And I immediately thought of you. 

They were discussing how women mistakenly use sex to manipulate their husbands. Which in a Christian point of view is completely wrong by the way. The reason I thought of you is that your wife after a good romance started to withhold sex from you from the honeymoon on. I'm sure most of us husbands have encountered the "I have a headache, I'm bloated, I'm tired, I've had a bad day" etc. to infinity.

The thing is sex is the number one love language to men while affection is the number one love language of women. So when women do this they don't understand what they are doing to their men. Of course this naturally leads to the husband being less affectionate because in his mind he has been totally, 1000% rejected. It brings on that queasy feeling in the stomach. Played to long this becomes a downward spiral. This is (my veiw) the number one reason men cheat and at some level women understand this.

For whatever reason this happend almost immediately in your marriage. You two have been on this roller coaster your whole marriage. Not meeting each others needs. I think you both have to be commended for being able to stick it out this long and that makes me believe you two are truly in love.

For whatever reason her manipulation started it has grown to the breaking point for you both. You stayed in so long that sex disappaered altogether like many threads a TAM. Finally she found a man she could talk to. I have no doubt her being an attractive woman would have led the OM to at least try to bed her. (you should try to explain the way men really think to her) I don't think it was a full blown EA because she immediately cut off contact with him and showed none of the withdrawal symptoms we see here. 

As a matter of fact she has been making some progress in MC. (You should probably try another MC counselor or keep this one awhile since stopping could make her think you are blaming her for the failure of counseling. Its your idea, not hers, that its not working.)

On your end, the OM was a 2x4 to the head. Also, on your shoulders is the fact that you have let her manipulate you with sex from the beginning. That should not have been allowed after the first week. You simply did not have that boundary, that you thought you could enforce. If only you had put your foot down then and found out what the problems were this could have all been avoided.

I would get her to talk about your honeymoon. Why did it turn out like it did? I would ask her what you did that hurt her so that she would react that way during or soon after the honeymoon. Of course this all has to be done with love ,patience and above all stay extremely calm and concerned. It doesn't have to be done all at one time but you have to go back to the beginning and figure this out. There is a good chance she may not even remember, probably doesn't. It may just be something small and built into this snowball from hell.

Here is what I would do. I would get the books, you may have them, "Love Busters" "The Five Love Languages" and especially "His Needs Her Needs" and read them together. Do not take no for an answer and make it plain from the get go that the two of you ARE going to read them. Man up and lead your family, do a little dictating. If you have to grab the books and go to bed with her and read some each night. Put the kids to bed and if they act up, spank them. They need it anyway.

Tell her the truth. You have and will do anything for her and your family. You would lay down your life for her and your children. 

Of course she wants to go on the trips with you,think about it. How would you feel if she didn't , you would be hurt to the bottom of your heart. You are making way more progress than I thought you would at this point. You've busted an affair before it really got started, she's being much more enthusiastic about being around you, you are sleeping in the same bed, she wants to go on two trips with you, sex is around the corner if you don't blow it.

Remember, her moving out was YOUR IDEA.

Forget the deadlines, you haven't done near enough to save your family at this point.


----------



## Chaparral

bandit.45 said:


> I wouldn't be takintg this harpy on any trips until she straightens up her attitude.
> 
> But if you do take her to Barcelona or Disney World, make sure she packs her really hot bikinis, so that she can spend every day tempting you with her body just to deny you sex at night... just like she has since your honeymoon...


Could you explain point by point how this is helpful?


----------



## Chaparral

Initfortheduration said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, poor daily should really change his name to yearly grind. That's why I don't come on his thread often. Its a horrible waste of band width. Daily is a black hole of advice. Advice goes in and not even light escapes.[/QUOTE]

I personally think the advice being given is self serving and pathetic, with no view that real people, including two children are invloved. Quite frankly I am disgusted at the vitriol with absolutely no constructive criticisim. DG owns 50% of this situation if not more. And I for one thinks DG can fix it if he doesn't go off the rails.

How about it DG, is your wife a goldigger?

For example, that they haven't had sex in two years is at least as much DG's fault in that he let it continue.


----------



## working_together

chapparal said:


> Could you explain point by point how this is helpful?


I think it was a joke....sort of anyway.

I just think the progress is really slow, and it's according to her pace, she controls it. In an odd way, she controls his emotions. He says ILY, she says it's too much, come on, she obviously knew this would hurt him. It seems like a game to me, and that would really make me boil. 

And the fact that she shows more excitement for the trips than she does for his kind gestures, or ILY's, sorry it just doesn't look promising. He needs to make a drastic move in order to see her reaction, otherwise nothing will change.


----------



## Chaparral

working_together said:


> I think it was a joke....sort of anyway.
> 
> I just think the progress is really slow, and it's according to her pace, she controls it. In an odd way, she controls his emotions. He says ILY, she says it's too much, come on, she obviously knew this would hurt him. It seems like a game to me, and that would really make me boil.
> 
> And the fact that she shows more excitement for the trips than she does for his kind gestures, or ILY's, sorry it just doesn't look promising. He needs to make a drastic move in order to see her reaction, otherwise nothing will change.


The woman has to say I love you first, sorry but thats the way it is. It made him look needy, clingy etc.


----------



## working_together

chapparal said:


> The woman has to say I love you first, sorry but thats the way it is. It made him look needy, clingy etc.


She's not going to say it...at least not in the near future. We don't know what she wants from him, and I don't think DG does either....I guess asking would help.


----------



## Chaparral

working_together said:


> She's not going to say it...at least not in the near future. We don't know what she wants from him, and I don't think DG does either....I guess asking would help.


That may be true but this ain't a race, its real life and its not entertainment. Also, its not a forum for bashing people. Just saying.

Hope things are going well with you by the way. I think I have been missing your posts.


----------



## bandit.45

> For example, that they haven't had sex in two years is at least as much DG's fault in that he let it continue


.

This is the only point you have made in this thread that I have completely agreed with Chap.


----------



## golfergirl

working_together said:


> I think it was a joke....sort of anyway.
> 
> I just think the progress is really slow, and it's according to her pace, she controls it. In an odd way, she controls his emotions. He says ILY, she says it's too much, come on, she obviously knew this would hurt him. It seems like a game to me, and that would really make me boil.
> 
> And the fact that she shows more excitement for the trips than she does for his kind gestures, or ILY's, sorry it just doesn't look promising. He needs to make a drastic move in order to see her reaction, otherwise nothing will change.


No trip. Tell her you think focus should be marriage repair or amicable split - time for DW another time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I caught a little bit of a counselor this afternoon on Focus on the Family. And I immediately thought of you.
> 
> They were discussing how women mistakenly use sex to manipulate their husbands. Which in a Christian point of view is completely wrong by the way. The reason I thought of you is that your wife after a good romance started to withhold sex from you from the honeymoon on. I'm sure most of us husbands have encountered the "I have a headache, I'm bloated, I'm tired, I've had a bad day" etc. to infinity.
> 
> The thing is sex is the number one love language to men while affection is the number one love language of women. So when women do this they don't understand what they are doing to their men. Of course this naturally leads to the husband being less affectionate because in his mind he has been totally, 1000% rejected. It brings on that queasy feeling in the stomach. Played to long this becomes a downward spiral. This is (my veiw) the number one reason men cheat and at some level women understand this.
> 
> For whatever reason this happend almost immediately in your marriage. You two have been on this roller coaster your whole marriage. Not meeting each others needs. I think you both have to be commended for being able to stick it out this long and that makes me believe you two are truly in love.
> 
> For whatever reason her manipulation started it has grown to the breaking point for you both. You stayed in so long that sex disappaered altogether like many threads a TAM. Finally she found a man she could talk to. I have no doubt her being an attractive woman would have led the OM to at least try to bed her. (you should try to explain the way men really think to her) I don't think it was a full blown EA because she immediately cut off contact with him and showed none of the withdrawal symptoms we see here.
> 
> As a matter of fact she has been making some progress in MC. (You should probably try another MC counselor or keep this one awhile since stopping could make her think you are blaming her for the failure of counseling. Its your idea, not hers, that its not working.)
> 
> On your end, the OM was a 2x4 to the head. Also, on your shoulders is the fact that you have let her manipulate you with sex from the beginning. That should not have been allowed after the first week. You simply did not have that boundary, that you thought you could enforce. If only you had put your foot down then and found out what the problems were this could have all been avoided.
> 
> I would get her to talk about your honeymoon. Why did it turn out like it did? I would ask her what you did that hurt her so that she would react that way during or soon after the honeymoon. Of course this all has to be done with love ,patience and above all stay extremely calm and concerned. It doesn't have to be done all at one time but you have to go back to the beginning and figure this out. There is a good chance she may not even remember, probably doesn't. It may just be something small and built into this snowball from hell.
> 
> Here is what I would do. I would get the books, you may have them, "Love Busters" "The Five Love Languages" and especially "His Needs Her Needs" and read them together. Do not take no for an answer and make it plain from the get go that the two of you ARE going to read them. Man up and lead your family, do a little dictating. If you have to grab the books and go to bed with her and read some each night. Put the kids to bed and if they act up, spank them. They need it anyway.
> 
> Tell her the truth. You have and will do anything for her and your family. You would lay down your life for her and your children.
> 
> Of course she wants to go on the trips with you,think about it. How would you feel if she didn't , you would be hurt to the bottom of your heart. You are making way more progress than I thought you would at this point. You've busted an affair before it really got started, she's being much more enthusiastic about being around you, you are sleeping in the same bed, she wants to go on two trips with you, sex is around the corner if you don't blow it.
> 
> Remember, her moving out was YOUR IDEA.
> 
> Forget the deadlines, you haven't done near enough to save your family at this point.


Chap... You ha e REALLY defined my issue more than most. I think you have a good handle on what I've been dealing with. You are right, there has been progress. But I just don't know what is behind it. I PRAY there is not another in her heart. If so....all is just an illussion. If not...it should be able to be saved. I know I own a lot of the issues. BUT she needs to let go of a lot of her resentments.....they no longer pertain. I am a completely different person than I was 10 years ago. She SHOULD see that. If not....it might take drastic action on my part. I hope not. Things are coming to a head in the next week. Rest assured,all, there will be NO trips without commitment from her, of some sort.


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> She's not going to say it...at least not in the near future. We don't know what she wants from him, and I don't think DG does either....I guess asking would help.


Oh...it's been asked by me, and MC....answer is "i don't know"....very helpful.


----------



## MEM2020

Chap,
This is actually quite good. No question there is love in this marriage, he loves her - a lot. And he has for most of the marriage. 

The busted honeymoon says it all. He is attempting to retrofit what happened there with "she was sea sick". But that doesn't ring true to me. When he first raised the honeymoon fiasco he never once mentioned her being sea sick. I believe she was sea sick during the honey moon. I don't for a moment believe that was why they didn't have sex. This is very clear because of what DIDN'T happen. (1) She wasn't remorseful during the honeymoon for it being sexless. (2) And she didn't saturate him with sex upon their return. A good wife would have done 1 and 2. Even a mediocre wife would have done (2). 

I come back to: there is a lot of love in this marriage - he loves her. As she told the OM - she always felt she settled. That is not fixable 12 years into a disasterous interaction pattern. I believe there were things she liked about him, but ALL of those things were really about HER. They all tie back to her hope that he would proivde for/take care of her. 

This reminds me of the posts where some married women on here went on at length about how they starved their husbands of sex for long periods of time due to resentment. And then they explained the source of that resentment: Their husbands did not earn enough money to allow them to be SAHMs. And the tone of their posts was simply explanatory. They didn't feel any guilt/remorse over doing that. BTW none of them had a "rational" basis for expecting that outcome. Their husbands didn't make much money before they married and were not on the fast track. So this was simply a "dream" each of them had that their H's didn't bring to life for them. And for that "failure" each of the husbands got treated VERY badly for many years. 

Now before anyone flames me, MY W would have been EXACTLY like those women if the had chosen to marry someone who couldn't provide well. She isn't lazy. Quite the opposite. But she wanted to be a SAHM. It was a top priority to her. If I couldn't/wouldn't have supported that, she would have felt a lot of resentment for a long time and for sure it would have impacted our marriage and our sex life. 

But here's the thing, deep down DG's wife really truly feels entitled to a better lifestyle than he can provide. And she resents the heck out of him for not providing in the style to which she wants to be accustomed. And THAT is why:
His top priority: Save the marriage get his wife to love him
Her top priority: Hold him at arms length and AT LEAST get a few luxury vacations out of him

DG,
If I am wrong about all this I apologize. So in the spirit of acknowledging that I may be off base I am going to ask you to do an exercise that will only take a minute or so. 

Earlier in your thread you mentioned a brief period of time during which your W provided you with a high frequency of (sadly dead fish) sex for a few months. She said later it was her last attempt to fix the marriage. But by "fix" she meant that she wanted to change something/some things about YOU. So think back and ask yourself, what was it that she wanted back then? I have to believe she told you. Because whatever THAT was, it was so important to her that she was willing to have a lot of bad sex (or at least she acted as if it was not good for her) to get it. 

Did she want to be a full time SAHM? Did she want to work part time? Did she want YOU to behave differently? Whatever it was, it was REALLY important to her and when she concluded she wasn't going to get it, she gave up totally and stopped having sex with you almost entirely. 





chapparal said:


> I caught a little bit of a counselor this afternoon on Focus on the Family. And I immediately thought of you.
> 
> They were discussing how women mistakenly use sex to manipulate their husbands. Which in a Christian point of view is completely wrong by the way. The reason I thought of you is that your wife after a good romance started to withhold sex from you from the honeymoon on. I'm sure most of us husbands have encountered the "I have a headache, I'm bloated, I'm tired, I've had a bad day" etc. to infinity.
> 
> The thing is sex is the number one love language to men while affection is the number one love language of women. So when women do this they don't understand what they are doing to their men. Of course this naturally leads to the husband being less affectionate because in his mind he has been totally, 1000% rejected. It brings on that queasy feeling in the stomach. Played to long this becomes a downward spiral. This is (my veiw) the number one reason men cheat and at some level women understand this.
> 
> For whatever reason this happend almost immediately in your marriage. You two have been on this roller coaster your whole marriage. Not meeting each others needs. I think you both have to be commended for being able to stick it out this long and that makes me believe you two are truly in love.
> 
> For whatever reason her manipulation started it has grown to the breaking point for you both. You stayed in so long that sex disappaered altogether like many threads a TAM. Finally she found a man she could talk to. I have no doubt her being an attractive woman would have led the OM to at least try to bed her. (you should try to explain the way men really think to her) I don't think it was a full blown EA because she immediately cut off contact with him and showed none of the withdrawal symptoms we see here.
> 
> As a matter of fact she has been making some progress in MC. (You should probably try another MC counselor or keep this one awhile since stopping could make her think you are blaming her for the failure of counseling. Its your idea, not hers, that its not working.)
> 
> On your end, the OM was a 2x4 to the head. Also, on your shoulders is the fact that you have let her manipulate you with sex from the beginning. That should not have been allowed after the first week. You simply did not have that boundary, that you thought you could enforce. If only you had put your foot down then and found out what the problems were this could have all been avoided.
> 
> I would get her to talk about your honeymoon. Why did it turn out like it did? I would ask her what you did that hurt her so that she would react that way during or soon after the honeymoon. Of course this all has to be done with love ,patience and above all stay extremely calm and concerned. It doesn't have to be done all at one time but you have to go back to the beginning and figure this out. There is a good chance she may not even remember, probably doesn't. It may just be something small and built into this snowball from hell.
> 
> Here is what I would do. I would get the books, you may have them, "Love Busters" "The Five Love Languages" and especially "His Needs Her Needs" and read them together. Do not take no for an answer and make it plain from the get go that the two of you ARE going to read them. Man up and lead your family, do a little dictating. If you have to grab the books and go to bed with her and read some each night. Put the kids to bed and if they act up, spank them. They need it anyway.
> 
> Tell her the truth. You have and will do anything for her and your family. You would lay down your life for her and your children.
> 
> Of course she wants to go on the trips with you,think about it. How would you feel if she didn't , you would be hurt to the bottom of your heart. You are making way more progress than I thought you would at this point. You've busted an affair before it really got started, she's being much more enthusiastic about being around you, you are sleeping in the same bed, she wants to go on two trips with you, sex is around the corner if you don't blow it.
> 
> Remember, her moving out was YOUR IDEA.
> 
> Forget the deadlines, you haven't done near enough to save your family at this point.


----------



## bandit.45

MEM11363,

YOU ARE BRILLIANT!

We can all go home now....


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Chap... You ha e REALLY defined my issue more than most. I think you have a good handle on what I've been dealing with. You are right, there has been progress. But I just don't know what is behind it. I PRAY there is not another in her heart. If so....all is just an illussion. If not...it should be able to be saved. I know I own a lot of the issues. BUT she needs to let go of a lot of her resentments.....they no longer pertain. I am a completely different person than I was 10 years ago. She SHOULD see that. If not....it might take drastic action on my part. I hope not. Things are coming to a head in the next week. Rest assured,all, there will be NO trips without commitment from her, of some sort.


One of my points is that I think she truly doesn't know the answers. This has been going on so long its lost in the haze. Take the books to bed with you and give it a real try.


----------



## Chaparral

I'm not sure you haven't already checked out. You want to stop MC. You suggested she move out. You don't want to take trips with her. She only has a week to come around.


----------



## working_together

chapparal said:


> That may be true but this ain't a race, its real life and its not entertainment. Also, its not a forum for bashing people. Just saying.
> 
> Hope things are going well with you by the way. I think I have been missing your posts.


I agree it's not a race and it's not entertainment. I've followed his thread from the beginning. Who's bashing him? It's about facing the reality of things. It's a do or die thing at this point. He's suffering, she's suffering, something needs to give. People can't stay in limbo like this, it's not a healthy way to live.

Things are fine with me, thanks for asking.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I'm not sure you haven't already checked out. You want to stop MC. You suggested she move out. You don't want to take trips with her. She only has a week to come around.


No..she has a week to decide if SHE wants to move out. If she does...I probably am done. If not...I will move Heaven and Earth to work on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## golfergirl

chapparal said:


> I'm not sure you haven't already checked out. You want to stop MC. You suggested she move out. You don't want to take trips with her. She only has a week to come around.


But what is there for him to stay for? Her ignoring and being put out by him saying ILY? Her being annoyed that he makes her breakfast to take on the road? I swear if trips are off the table totally (not 'we'll go if you smarten up by March 15th') DG will get a true view of where she's at. I'm saying - take trips off table totally. Don't dangle it like a carrot or take away as punishment. Just take off the table.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

golfergirl said:


> But what is there for him to stay for? Her ignoring and being put out by him saying ILY? Her being annoyed that he makes her breakfast to take on the road? I swear if trips are off the table totally (not 'we'll go if you smarten up by March 15th') DG will get a true view of where she's at. I'm saying - take trips off table totally. Don't dangle it like a carrot or take away as punishment. Just take off the table.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't see how that would help. The gulf would just grow wider. That would be the ultimate slap in the face. That's how I would consider it.


----------



## golfergirl

chapparal said:


> I don't see how that would help. The gulf would just grow wider. That would be the ultimate slap in the face. That's how I would consider it.


Why a slap in the face? If said that they have bigger things to deal with than this trip. Why would anyone want to take a trip with someone who can barely tolerate them? I just see it as him kissing her ass again and she doesn't deserve that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Chap,
This is SO over the line. Seriously I have no idea where you come up with this stuff. 
1. SHE isn't talking in MC. Basically she told him she resents him but won't explain specifically what she wants him to DO. It is all about her "feelings" but there is not connection back to anything he can DO, that is except refrain from over the top behaviors like telling her once a month in text that he loves her. She is going to MC because:
- Not going makes it very clear she isn't willing to put effort in
- And yet - she makes no efforts
But she does get to blame him for a long list of stuff lost in the haze of time. So he SUCKS but she can't remember why. 

2. He ASKED HER if she wants to move out, since she clearly doesn't seem to want to be with him. Totally fair question. 
3. This is OUTRAGEOUS. I cannot believe you said this. Here we have a woman who has little to no desire to actually spend time with DG. She is however WILLING TO if they go on trips they cannot by any standard really afford. 

Lets turn it around. A female poster shows up tomorrow and says her H has made it clear he doesn't really want to spend time with her outside the bedroom but he does seem determined to get her to keep having sex with him. 

You have an agenda here. Your advice has no balance. 



chapparal said:


> I'm not sure you haven't already checked out. You want to stop MC. You suggested she move out. You don't want to take trips with her. She only has a week to come around.


----------



## Shamwow

No one else is saying it.

Not too expectant of an amorous encounter this evening as planned.

I went 2 1/2 months while xw was out of town for work last spring and our first return encounter was disastrous because she was so disengaged (later confirmed affair though, making this potentially different from your situation, DG). Granted, at that point I was personally in a bad place and wasn't prepared for how to handle it from a position of strength...and went another 2 agonizing soul-searching months sexless and filled with lies from xw before I called it. But 2 years is huge. I wish you luck DG. Intimacy is hard to reclaim.

I'll say that now, in a new relationship with a woman who actually cares about me, physical matters are EASY. Think about that. Remember what it was like, if you can. You could move on and start over with someone who really craves your company. I know you have kids, and that makes it so much harder...but happiness is contagious. Your kids will see it...from both of you.

ALL THAT SAID...I hope she opens up and lets you in tonight. Arm around her shoulder. Kiss her lightly on her back. Then her cheek. Then her lips. Then harder. If you are still in business, don't back off. Touch her. Take her hand and place it ON YOU. If she recoils, don't get angry...just disengage, chuckle, say "Gotcha", and roll over and grab the tv remote. Watch something funny...and laugh. Because at a certain point, sex is gone. And if that is the case for you in you rmarriage, then embrace the reality of that and be prepared to move on.


----------



## DailyGrind

So basically I have the advice to "[email protected] her" or... [email protected] her.... Very confusing. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Sorry man. I got the same conflicting advice. It was just as confusing. Tailor it to yourself. I eventually found healing in the second [email protected] her (eff it and move on). But was hoping for the first option. Just didn't happen. Or I didn't make it happen...but I think it was because I decided I just couldn't go there. If you have that option in the least...go there.

Again, my xw had a confirmed PA. So it's different mindset...tread as you please. Feel for you. But you're the one running your show. Do what you want, and if she doesn't agree, then she can get off the carousel.


----------



## Chaparral

Number one its a leading question. He asked her if she wanted to move out. Later he asked her why. Her answer....... I thought you wantd me to.

And I completely disagree that she clearly doesn't want to be with him. Maybe but maybe not. She is still there after all.

And all this with only one side of the story. Somehow DG has disaffected her. Neither one knows but I suspect it a lot of things, many listed throughout his threads. 

If she were as bad as the advisors here project her, DG would have been gone long ago.

And the marriage hasn't been sexless unless the stork brought the kids.


----------



## Chaparral

By the way, when DG was spending a lot of time in bars with his office buddies, spending thousands of dollars, I will bet she thought he was out banging other women.

If she was out drunk doing what he was doing he would have had a cow.


----------



## happyman64

Can someone mail DG a roofie. Or if it is illegal in his state take one with you to Barcelona along with the wife.

You will get sex and the truth from her in one shot.

All kidding aside, make your decision. It is no longer hers in a few more days.

She has tortured you enough and no one deserves that.

You can quit the marriage knowing you tried every avenue to get her to open up. All she did was stay "dry" and have an EA. Oh yeah, she wants to go to DW too.

Take Bandit45 with you. He needs a vacation. :smthumbup:

You deserve one too. Just you and the kids.

It is almost time DG. It is your decision to make and frankly you deserve better.

Your wife has issues, there is no question about that. She is also very selfish.

Good Luck Buddy. Stay strong and determined to get to a better path.

Happy


----------



## Chaparral

I have a question for the ladies reading this since I am a man and a bit older than most here I expect.

Say DG and his wife is divorced. You have been dating a short period of time. You really like him and are thinking this could be the real thing. But you wouldn't call it love quite yet. He also has 50/50 custody of his kids.

DG decides to take you to dinner to meet his kids. Everything starts out great. Two thirds the way through the meal the kids start acting up.......badly. DG can't get them to stop. Abruptly, DG annuounces if the kids can't act any better than that everyone will just leave and go home. If DG can't control his kids at dinner in a public place, or anywhere else for that matter, would you consider marrying him? 

IMHO this reeks of beta not Alpa behavior. I now think this is a leadership problem. I have been where the other posters are on this thread. But now, I am haveing big doubts about who carries most of the responsibility for this situation.

Like BryanP might say, if your kids don't respect you , who will?


----------



## golfergirl

chapparal said:


> I have a question for the ladies reading this since I am a man and a bit older than most here I expect.
> 
> Say DG and his wife is divorced. You have been dating a short period of time. You really like him and are thinking this could be the real thing. But you wouldn't call it love quite yet. He also has 50/50 custody of his kids.
> 
> DG decides to take you to dinner to meet his kids. Everything starts out great. Two thirds the way through the meal the kids start acting up.......badly. DG can't get them to stop. Abruptly, DG annuounces if the kids can't act any better than that everyone will just leave and go home. If DG can't control his kids at dinner in a public place, or anywhere else for that matter, would you consider marrying him?
> 
> IMHO this reeks of beta not Alpa behavior. I now think this is a leadership problem. I have been where the other posters are on this thread. But now, I am haveing big doubts about who carries most of the responsibility for this situation.
> 
> Like BryanP might say, if your kids don't respect you , who will?


Isn't up and leaving alpha? You can't make someone, even children behave.
If he didn't freak on them, beat their asses, and just offered up a consequence and followed through, I'd personally be impressed. I'm a mom of a 20, 16 and 4 and 1 year old. The older two were awesome in public - the younger two - not so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dymo

DG, if you're reading this and you haven't gotten laid, get off this thread and stay off TAM for now. Focus on the task at hand. This back and forth is of no use to you for tonight.


----------



## Beowulf

chapparal said:


> I have a question for the ladies reading this since I am a man and a bit older than most here I expect.
> 
> Say DG and his wife is divorced. You have been dating a short period of time. You really like him and are thinking this could be the real thing. But you wouldn't call it love quite yet. He also has 50/50 custody of his kids.
> 
> DG decides to take you to dinner to meet his kids. Everything starts out great. Two thirds the way through the meal the kids start acting up.......badly. DG can't get them to stop. Abruptly, DG annuounces if the kids can't act any better than that everyone will just leave and go home. If DG can't control his kids at dinner in a public place, or anywhere else for that matter, would you consider marrying him?
> 
> IMHO this reeks of beta not Alpa behavior. I now think this is a leadership problem. I have been where the other posters are on this thread. But now, I am haveing big doubts about who carries most of the responsibility for this situation.
> 
> Like BryanP might say, if your kids don't respect you , who will?


I think the problem is that we are only hearing from DG side of things. That is not meant to mean that he is being untruthful but he may not understand what his wife is looking for. I also realize that she may not have expressly stated what she wants but from my experience many times women don't know exactly what they want they only know how they feel. She may be giving out silent messages that DG can't seem to pick up on. Again, that is not necessarily his fault but they seem to be stuck in an emotional quagmire and neither one knows the best way to extricate themselves. Maybe I've been watching too much Dr. Phil.

DG,

I don't mean to try to get you into a long dissertation but the way I see it there are two basic mindsets here.

1) She married you not because she loved you but she felt she wasn't going to do better. In that case the resentment will never go away barring some sudden epiphany on the part of your wife.

2) She did love you but things have gone downhill for so long she can't remember why she felt that way. In turn even though you have tried you still (understandably) have resentment and you are unsure of yourself. In that case she also doesn't like the wishy washy person she thinks you are.

If its #2 then there is hope that you can both improve the relationship. Maybe these questions will help you see things clearly and give us a better understanding of what you might not have done or need to repair from your side.

Try to describe your wife's personality as objectively as you can.

would you describe your wife as submissive? With you? With others?

is she extremely moody? if so can you think was she always like this or did it start recently?

what gets her excited? does she ever seem enthusiastic about anything?

when was the last time you took her out on a date? what was her mood/reaction?

thinking logically and without trying to instill blame, what would you say is the one thing about you that your wife has always seemed to have a problem with? Not just recently but always. Have you ever tried to change that aspect of yourself? Did she ever acknowledge the change?

You said you aren't the man you were before. What did you change and why? How did you change it?


----------



## working_together

Beowulf said:


> I think the problem is that we are only hearing from DG side of things. That is not meant to mean that he is being untruthful but he may not understand what his wife is looking for. I also realize that she may not have expressly stated what she wants but from my experience many times women don't know exactly what they want they only know how they feel. She may be giving out silent messages that DG can't seem to pick up on. Again, that is not necessarily his fault but they seem to be stuck in an emotional quagmire and neither one knows the best way to extricate themselves. Maybe I've been watching too much Dr. Phil.
> 
> DG,
> 
> I don't mean to try to get you into a long dissertation but the way I see it there are two basic mindsets here.
> 
> 1) She married you not because she loved you but she felt she wasn't going to do better. In that case the resentment will never go away barring some sudden epiphany on the part of your wife.
> 
> 2) She did love you but things have gone downhill for so long she can't remember why she felt that way. In turn even though you have tried you still (understandably) have resentment and you are unsure of yourself. In that case she also doesn't like the wishy washy person she thinks you are.
> 
> If its #2 then there is hope that you can both improve the relationship. Maybe these questions will help you see things clearly and give us a better understanding of what you might not have done or need to repair from your side.
> 
> Try to describe your wife's personality as objectively as you can.
> 
> would you describe your wife as submissive? With you? With others?
> 
> is she extremely moody? if so can you think was she always like this or did it start recently?
> 
> what gets her excited? does she ever seem enthusiastic about anything?
> 
> when was the last time you took her out on a date? what was her mood/reaction?
> 
> thinking logically and without trying to instill blame, what would you say is the one thing about you that your wife has always seemed to have a problem with? Not just recently but always. Have you ever tried to change that aspect of yourself? Did she ever acknowledge the change?
> 
> You said you aren't the man you were before. What did you change and why? How did you change it?


"How's that working for ya" as Dr. Phil used to say....


----------



## working_together

chapparal said:


> I have a question for the ladies reading this since I am a man and a bit older than most here I expect.
> 
> Say DG and his wife is divorced. You have been dating a short period of time. You really like him and are thinking this could be the real thing. But you wouldn't call it love quite yet. He also has 50/50 custody of his kids.
> 
> DG decides to take you to dinner to meet his kids. Everything starts out great. Two thirds the way through the meal the kids start acting up.......badly. DG can't get them to stop. Abruptly, DG annuounces if the kids can't act any better than that everyone will just leave and go home. If DG can't control his kids at dinner in a public place, or anywhere else for that matter, would you consider marrying him?
> 
> IMHO this reeks of beta not Alpa behavior. I now think this is a leadership problem. I have been where the other posters are on this thread. But now, I am haveing big doubts about who carries most of the responsibility for this situation.
> 
> Like BryanP might say, if your kids don't respect you , who will?


Parenting really has nothing to do with being alpha or beta, you can be soft, but consistant, it's the being consistant, following up with consequences that's key, only then will kids behave at home and in public. The other aspect that affects kids behavior is knowing that their parents aren't in the best of places, there doesn't even have to be an arguement for them to feel some tension. Kids need to see affection between parents, that the couple has a loving relationship etc.

Not that I'm an expert.....


----------



## PHTlump

chapparal said:


> I don't see how that would help. The gulf would just grow wider. That would be the ultimate slap in the face. That's how I would consider it.


Taking trips off the table for a wife who can't bring herself to be pleasant to her husband is a slap in the face? That's crazy.

There's no way that DG should reward his wife for her behavior. If you reward bad behavior, you usually get more bad behavior. It doesn't just magically go away, as you seem to believe.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

chapparal said:


> And I completely disagree that she clearly doesn't want to be with him. Maybe but maybe not. She is still there after all.


So the only evidence that she wants to be around him is that she has not left yet? That is surely damning with faint praise.

As best I can see, the only time she has provided any indication that she wants him around is when cool trips are in the works. Whether or not that is intentional on her part, it is certainly a bad sign. I do think emphasizing that their marriage, not these trips, is the most critical issue they face will help clarify where she is truly at.


----------



## PHTlump

chapparal said:


> Number one its a leading question. He asked her if she wanted to move out. Later he asked her why. Her answer....... I thought you wantd me to.


If someone refuses to talk, then you have to ask leading questions. So far, DG's wife has refused to give him any feedback on the primary issues in the marriage. She's not happy, but doesn't know why. Maybe he can do something, maybe he can't. You think communication is paying a counselor $200/hour to stare at each other and try to read minds?



chapparal said:


> And I completely disagree that she clearly doesn't want to be with him. Maybe but maybe not. She is still there after all.


There is there, and there is there. It's true that she lives in the same house that he does. But she was put off when he came back into the master bedroom. She has talked of needing time and space. There is more to a marriage than proximity.



chapparal said:


> And the marriage hasn't been sexless unless the stork brought the kids.


Right. She did have sex with him that one time, a few years ago. She should get a cookie. :rofl:


----------



## PHTlump

working_together said:


> Parenting really has nothing to do with being alpha or beta, you can be soft, but consistant, it's the being consistant, following up with consequences that's key, only then will kids behave at home and in public.


I disagree. Effective parenting is all about being alpha. Alpha is consistent. Alpha is confident. Only those who misunderstand alpha think it's about being hostile and violent. However, even the most alpha, consistent, wonderful parents in the world will have children who misbehave. Because children have free will.

I have watched my own children weigh the options of misbehaving against punishment, believe that I will punish them because I am consistent, and still choose to misbehave. Oh well. That's their decision. I can't make it for them.


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> I have a question for the ladies reading this since I am a man and a bit older than most here I expect.
> 
> Say DG and his wife is divorced. You have been dating a short period of time. You really like him and are thinking this could be the real thing. But you wouldn't call it love quite yet. He also has 50/50 custody of his kids.
> 
> DG decides to take you to dinner to meet his kids. Everything starts out great. Two thirds the way through the meal the kids start acting up.......badly. DG can't get them to stop. Abruptly, DG annuounces if the kids can't act any better than that everyone will just leave and go home. If DG can't control his kids at dinner in a public place, or anywhere else for that matter, would you consider marrying him?
> 
> IMHO this reeks of beta not Alpa behavior. I now think this is a leadership problem. I have been where the other posters are on this thread. But now, I am haveing big doubts about who carries most of the responsibility for this situation.
> 
> Like BryanP might say, if your kids don't respect you , who will?


Chap...I assume you ask this with regard to my story from a month ago? Not sure how you got Beta out of that story. I thought it was pretty Alpha, myself. DD2 was polishing off her fries.....i wanted her to eat some of her entree. I told her no more fries until she eats the rest. Now....bear in mind she was also coming down with a cold...but she wound up throwing a tantrum. To which, I patiently tried talking to her, tried ignoring her......and finally threatened to take her home, if she didn't stop the bad behavior (she was starting to disrupt OTHER people's dinner.) I was consistent throughout....and she never got her fries. When she didn't stop.....we left....as promised. What is so Beta about that?


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> I think the problem is that we are only hearing from DG side of things. That is not meant to mean that he is being untruthful but he may not understand what his wife is looking for. I also realize that she may not have expressly stated what she wants but from my experience many times women don't know exactly what they want they only know how they feel. She may be giving out silent messages that DG can't seem to pick up on. Again, that is not necessarily his fault but they seem to be stuck in an emotional quagmire and neither one knows the best way to extricate themselves. Maybe I've been watching too much Dr. Phil.
> 
> DG,
> 
> I don't mean to try to get you into a long dissertation but the way I see it there are two basic mindsets here.
> 
> 1) She married you not because she loved you but she felt she wasn't going to do better. In that case the resentment will never go away barring some sudden epiphany on the part of your wife.
> 
> 2) She did love you but things have gone downhill for so long she can't remember why she felt that way. In turn even though you have tried you still (understandably) have resentment and you are unsure of yourself. In that case she also doesn't like the wishy washy person she thinks you are.
> 
> If its #2 then there is hope that you can both improve the relationship. Maybe these questions will help you see things clearly and give us a better understanding of what you might not have done or need to repair from your side.
> 
> Try to describe your wife's personality as objectively as you can.


I *think* it is #2....but certainly the recent behavior has me second guessing.

Her personality is introverted, typically unreactive, used to be loving, smart, conservative, shy, judgemental



Beowulf said:


> would you describe your wife as submissive? With you? With others?


Absolutely not. One thing I always knew about my wife. She pretty much goes with the flow, never seemed to get bothered by much. BUT...she would never do something if she didn't want to. 



Beowulf said:


> is she extremely moody? if so can you think was she always like this or did it start recently?


She is very irritable, most of the time now. (for years...pretty much since DD2 was born) No...she wasn't like that before.



Beowulf said:


> what gets her excited? does she ever seem enthusiastic about anything?


Nope.



Beowulf said:


> when was the last time you took her out on a date? what was her mood/reaction?


Two weeks ago. We had a good time. She seemed very friendly and enjoyable to be with.



Beowulf said:


> thinking logically and without trying to instill blame, what would you say is the one thing about you that your wife has always seemed to have a problem with? Not just recently but always. Have you ever tried to change that aspect of yourself? Did she ever acknowledge the change?


I used to have an anger problem. Not with her...but typically myself. If I was working on something, or trying to accomplish something...and having difficulty, I pretty much started expressing through curses, and anger. Never AT people....more at myself. But....over the past two years, I've made GREAT strides in not showing anger. I rarely do anymore.
But she's also made comments that I was sometimes curt with her. I've tried watching that, over the past two years. But...let's face it...we all get curt with people, sometimes. So it won't go away entirely....but I try.



Beowulf said:


> You said you aren't the man you were before. What did you change and why? How did you change it


Anger: (reference above)...just through self-awareness.
Stopped online gaming last August....taking up too much of my time.
Stopped porn....obvious reasons.
Started spending more time with kids...putting off work-related activities until they've gone to bed.
Started working out.
Just, in general, trying to be more empathetic with her...even if I don't always agree.


----------



## DailyGrind

PHTlump said:


> Taking trips off the table for a wife who can't bring herself to be pleasant to her husband is a slap in the face? That's crazy.
> 
> There's no way that DG should reward his wife for her behavior. If you reward bad behavior, you usually get more bad behavior. It doesn't just magically go away, as you seem to believe.


I agree...I need to take the trip off the table. What I'm trying to figure out is how to do that, without it sounding like a penalty.

To make matters worse....kids are talking about Disney. I'm not sure WHY suddenly they were talking about it this morning, on way to school. Wanted to know if we were going to fly. Was it still in May. I just kept responding....we're trying/hope so/etc.


----------



## bandit.45

I wonder if she has a mood disorder or maybe Aspergers. Aspies, like my sister are very withdrawn and introverted. They also shy away from loud noises and yelling.

Might be something to consider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> I *think* it is #2....but certainly the recent behavior has me second guessing.
> 
> Her personality is introverted, typically unreactive, used to be loving, smart, conservative, shy, judgemental
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely not. One thing I always knew about my wife. She pretty much goes with the flow, never seemed to get bothered by much. BUT...she would never do something if she didn't want to.
> 
> 
> 
> She is very irritable, most of the time now. (for years...pretty much since DD2 was born) No...she wasn't like that before.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> Two weeks ago. We had a good time. She seemed very friendly and enjoyable to be with.
> 
> 
> 
> I used to have an anger problem. Not with her...but typically myself. If I was working on something, or trying to accomplish something...and having difficulty, I pretty much started expressing through curses, and anger. Never AT people....more at myself. But....over the past two years, I've made GREAT strides in not showing anger. I rarely do anymore.
> But she's also made comments that I was sometimes curt with her. I've tried watching that, over the past two years. But...let's face it...we all get curt with people, sometimes. So it won't go away entirely....but I try.
> 
> 
> 
> Anger: (reference above)...just through self-awareness.
> Stopped online gaming last August....taking up too much of my time.
> Stopped porn....obvious reasons.
> Started spending more time with kids...putting off work-related activities until they've gone to bed.
> Started working out.
> Just, in general, trying to be more empathetic with her...even if I don't always agree.


So basically the only things she seems to enjoy are when you take her out on dates or talk about vacations?

It certainly sounds like you have done some self improvement. Could she just be extremely stressed and bored but really doesn't know how to express her feelings. My wife is great at analyzing others. She'll pick you apart in a nanosecond. But when it comes to self reflection and communicating she gets a D. The only way I know when something is bothering her is because of her silent cues and her body language. Then I have to practically drag it out of her.

Let me share something with you. As you probably know my wife had a full blown affair 20 years ago. She ended it and came clean and we went through a very difficult R. After she earned my trust back and after I decided I still loved her we went about correcting the things in our marriage that we realized were poisoning our love. This all took about 6 or 7 years. After that I was feeling pretty good about me and about us. However, I noticed that she was seeming a little down. Not depressed but just a tad sad. I couldn't figure out for the life of me what was up. I thought at first she was in another affair but since we were and still are completely transparent with each other I quickly crossed that off as a reason. Gradually for several months she grew more and more melancholy to the point that I tried to get her to go to the doctor. Well, to make a long story short. After all the work we had put in she really never had time to sit down and truly come to appreciate how close we came to divorce. And that realization triggered her into remembering her childhood and when her parents got divorced. In essence she was transferring her negative childhood feelings onto our marital situation. DG, it took me over a year to get uncover this. When I brought it up to her she realized that I might be onto something and she went to IC counseling to finally deal with her childhood feelings.

What I'm trying to get at is that she really may not know why she is feeling like she does. And while it certainly is not really up to you to figure out her problems you might want to just try to break the negative emotional cycle so maybe she can see through her own fog and figure out the way back into your relationship.

You said she seemed happy when you took her out a couple of weeks ago. Maybe you should try this.

Find a *very nice* restaurant to take her to. Preferably one that you have a leg up with. In other words you know the owner, you know the head chef, its a French restaurant and you speak french. Something like that if you can swing it. Make a reservation or at least make plans for a date and time. DON'T TELL HER. Line up a sitter. Pay her more than you usually do and pay her in advance. Tell her to come an hour early. Tell her that she is to show up no matter what. If your wife calls to cancel she comes anyway. Tell your wife a few days ahead of the date. No more, no less. Don't tell her where you are going. Make sure you tell her while having the mindset that you are inviting her to go along. You are not asking her, you are telling her that it is happening. But say it *nicely and confidently*. If she says she isn't going, don't argue. But tell her the reservations are already made and the sitter has already been paid. Remind her again the morning of the date. If she still says she isn't going, tell her that's her choice. You're still going and she'll miss a great time out. When the sitter shows up ask her one last time. If she still says no, *go alone*. Your wife can spend the evening sitting on the couch watching _Everyone Loves Raymond_ reruns with the sitter. You can do whatever you really want if she's not with you but when you get home make sure you have a huge smile on your face like you had a great evening. If she asks where you went tell her next time she should come and then she'll know. Don't give her any details. Then a week or two later, do the exact same thing again.

If she doesn't go the second time you have your answer that she is not into you. And this will cost a hell of a lot less than a Disney vacation or a trip to Barcelona.

People hate to be left behind so I doubt she will refuse the second time if she didn't go the first time. If she does go on the date make sure you pull out all the stops like you would if you were dating for real. And make sure that sex is not the expected outcome. I know it will be hard to do since you aren't getting any but that anxiety should not play into it. You both need to be relaxed and playful without any resentments. Try to see if you can order for her at the restaurant. Order a bottle of wine and make sure you sniff the cork and sample the wine. Don't be afraid to ask the waiter for suggestions with the dinner you have chosen. Basically treat it like if you weren't married and you really wanted to get this girl. After dinner do something else, do not go right home. If she likes dancing, go dancing. If she likes walking on the beach, go walking on the beach. This is where your knowledge of her likes will help you. When you finally get home do not end the date. Sit down with her, watch a little TV, talk, play scrabble...whatever. But be right next to her. Then observe her body language and see how receptive she is to affectionate touching. Who knows, you might even get lucky.

This is all I have for you DG. I have no more aces up my sleeve but I'll continue to follow your thread and offer suggestions when I can.


----------



## dymo

Couple of things:

I think MC actually was helpful. Daily hugs, her efforts to be nicer, and of course admitting that her interactions with the OM were not okay came from MC. You also gained a number of insights into her issues. Perhaps not enough progress for your liking, but it was moving in the right direction.

If you do dispense with MC, there needs to be some sort of substitute. You need to find a way to talk to each other in-depth on at least semi-regular basis. 



DailyGrind said:


> I *think* it is #2....but certainly the recent behavior has me second guessing.


What recent behavior? Are you sure she is truly behaving any worse in recent weeks? Could your second guessing have more to do with the fact that #1 has had a lot of discussion on this thread?


----------



## dymo

Oh, and good luck for when you make your move, whether it be tonight or later this week.


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> So basically the only things she seems to enjoy are when you take her out on dates or talk about vacations?
> 
> It certainly sounds like you have done some self improvement. Could she just be extremely stressed and bored but really doesn't know how to express her feelings. My wife is great at analyzing others. She'll pick you apart in a nanosecond. But when it comes to self reflection and communicating she gets a D. The only way I know when something is bothering her is because of her silent cues and her body language. Then I have to practically drag it out of her.
> 
> Let me share something with you. As you probably know my wife had a full blown affair 20 years ago. She ended it and came clean and we went through a very difficult R. After she earned my trust back and after I decided I still loved her we went about correcting the things in our marriage that we realized were poisoning our love. This all took about 6 or 7 years. After that I was feeling pretty good about me and about us. However, I noticed that she was seeming a little down. Not depressed but just a tad sad. I couldn't figure out for the life of me what was up. I thought at first she was in another affair but since we were and still are completely transparent with each other I quickly crossed that off as a reason. Gradually for several months she grew more and more melancholy to the point that I tried to get her to go to the doctor. Well, to make a long story short. After all the work we had put in she really never had time to sit down and truly come to appreciate how close we came to divorce. And that realization triggered her into remembering her childhood and when her parents got divorced. In essence she was transferring her negative childhood feelings onto our marital situation. DG, it took me over a year to get uncover this. When I brought it up to her she realized that I might be onto something and she went to IC counseling to finally deal with her childhood feelings.
> 
> What I'm trying to get at is that she really may not know why she is feeling like she does. And while it certainly is not really up to you to figure out her problems you might want to just try to break the negative emotional cycle so maybe she can see through her own fog and figure out the way back into your relationship.
> 
> You said she seemed happy when you took her out a couple of weeks ago. Maybe you should try this.
> 
> Find a *very nice* restaurant to take her to. Preferably one that you have a leg up with. In other words you know the owner, you know the head chef, its a French restaurant and you speak french. Something like that if you can swing it. Make a reservation or at least make plans for a date and time. DON'T TELL HER. Line up a sitter. Pay her more than you usually do and pay her in advance. Tell her to come an hour early. Tell her that she is to show up no matter what. If your wife calls to cancel she comes anyway. Tell your wife a few days ahead of the date. No more, no less. Don't tell her where you are going. Make sure you tell her while having the mindset that you are inviting her to go along. You are not asking her, you are telling her that it is happening. But say it *nicely and confidently*. If she says she isn't going, don't argue. But tell her the reservations are already made and the sitter has already been paid. Remind her again the morning of the date. If she still says she isn't going, tell her that's her choice. You're still going and she'll miss a great time out. When the sitter shows up ask her one last time. If she still says no, *go alone*. Your wife can spend the evening sitting on the couch watching _Everyone Loves Raymond_ reruns with the sitter. You can do whatever you really want if she's not with you but when you get home make sure you have a huge smile on your face like you had a great evening. If she asks where you went tell her next time she should come and then she'll know. Don't give her any details. Then a week or two later, do the exact same thing again.
> 
> If she doesn't go the second time you have your answer that she is not into you. And this will cost a hell of a lot less than a Disney vacation or a trip to Barcelona.
> 
> People hate to be left behind so I doubt she will refuse the second time if she didn't go the first time. If she does go on the date make sure you pull out all the stops like you would if you were dating for real. And make sure that sex is not the expected outcome. I know it will be hard to do since you aren't getting any but that anxiety should not play into it. You both need to be relaxed and playful without any resentments. Try to see if you can order for her at the restaurant. Order a bottle of wine and make sure you sniff the cork and sample the wine. Don't be afraid to ask the waiter for suggestions with the dinner you have chosen. Basically treat it like if you weren't married and you really wanted to get this girl. After dinner do something else, do not go right home. If she likes dancing, go dancing. If she likes walking on the beach, go walking on the beach. This is where your knowledge of her likes will help you. When you finally get home do not end the date. Sit down with her, watch a little TV, talk, play scrabble...whatever. But be right next to her. Then observe her body language and see how receptive she is to affectionate touching. Who knows, you might even get lucky.
> 
> This is all I have for you DG. I have no more aces up my sleeve but I'll continue to follow your thread and offer suggestions when I can.


Thanks for the long post, Beowulf. I've been doing this, since October...with renewed focus. The Saturday before Valentines...to her to Little Italy, to a very nice Italian restaurant....stopped at an Italian pastaria for goodies, and went to a nice upscale social club for drinks. We had a blast. Three days later, sent her nice chocolate-covered strawberries for Valentines. She did nothing for me.

She loves doing all the things I do with her. I take her places, she seems to have fun doing them...and then...I get "I don't know"...about us.

I appreciate your input....thanks.


----------



## DailyGrind

dymo said:


> What recent behavior?


The behavior over the past year...colder, EA, things she said to the OM: "never had anything to start with"; "he never really loved me".



dymo said:


> Could your second guessing have more to do with the fact that #1 has had a lot of discussion on this thread?


Quite possibly.


----------



## DailyGrind

dymo said:


> Oh, and good luck for when you make your move, whether it be tonight or later this week.


Tonight.  We always watch Survivor together. Right before hand, I'm going to ask her to join me in the shower.


----------



## PHTlump

DailyGrind said:


> I agree...I need to take the trip off the table. What I'm trying to figure out is how to do that, without it sounding like a penalty.


I suggest sitting down and saying, "Since our relationship is so up in the air right now, spending money on a vacation that we can't really afford seems irresponsible. If, in a few months, we are running two households, we'll really wish we had that money back. So, we need to postpone (not cancel) it. If we can get through this rough patch, and get back to loving each other, then a vacation would be a great celebration of that."



DailyGrind said:


> To make matters worse....kids are talking about Disney. I'm not sure WHY suddenly they were talking about it this morning, on way to school.


I would imagine that your wife is trying to manipulate you using the kids. She probably reminded them of it and suggested they start asking you about it. That's certainly easier than acting like she gives a damn about you.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Thanks for the long post, Beowulf. I've been doing this, since October...with renewed focus. The Saturday before Valentines...to her to Little Italy, to a very nice Italian restaurant....stopped at an Italian pastaria for goodies, and went to a nice upscale social club for drinks. We had a blast. Three days later, sent her nice chocolate-covered strawberries for Valentines. She did nothing for me.
> 
> She loves doing all the things I do with her. I take her places, she seems to have fun doing them...and then...I get "I don't know"...about us.
> 
> I appreciate your input....thanks.


Then I have nothing left my friend. I asked my wife and even she, the one who can rip you apart in a nanosecond has nothing to offer. I really wish you all the luck in the world. I really feel bad I couldn't provide you with more help.


----------



## Beowulf

PHTlump said:


> I suggest sitting down and saying, "Since our relationship is so up in the air right now, spending money on a vacation that we can't really afford seems irresponsible. If, in a few months, we are running two households, we'll really wish we had that money back. So, we need to postpone (not cancel) it. If we can get through this rough patch, and get back to loving each other, then a vacation would be a great celebration of that."
> 
> 
> I would imagine that your wife is trying to manipulate you using the kids. She probably reminded them of it and suggested they start asking you about it. That's certainly easier than acting like she gives a damn about you.


I have to agree. I wouldn't take the trip off the table per se but I would be hesitant to plan a trip given the circumstances of the marriage. If it were a trip that would allow the two of you to reconnect I might see it but having the kids with you would not allow enough one on one time to make it worthwhile.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Tonight.  We always watch Survivor together. Right before hand, I'm going to ask her to join me in the shower.


We got rid of television almost two years ago. My wife suggested that it was simply a waste of time. Time that we could be spending together and I agreed. I never really watched TV anyway so I didn't miss it.


----------



## Catherine602

I think the advice to ask your wife is bad in my opinion. 

I hate to see you shot down. If she does then you have your answer it is no to the marriage. I really think you need to pull the plug. 

She is staying for her convience not because she wants to have a loving relationship. 

DC you can have what you want and need. You can have a woman who is compatible and will give as much as you give. 

Why do you are you allowing her to dismiss you? You are telling her that she is more important than you, that is no place to be. 

Please don't reward her with a trip. She does not want to be in the relationship so why should you provide her with free travel. 

Save your money for a trip with a loving woman. 

Why do you keep hanging on?


----------



## tennisstar

I agree with Catherine. I think she's in this marriage for convenience and because she's financially afraid to make it on her own. I, too, think she's going to shoot you down tonight and your feelings will be even more hurt. But I guess you will have your answer!

I think she talked to the kids about the Disney trip. She knows if the kids get all excited, it will be hard for you to disappoint them. I also think she's going to be nice to try to get what she wants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

A-freakin-Men - AMEN

The same with this expensive Italian dinner. The message is that financial stability for 4 people - she is one of the 4 - MUST take a back seat to her lifestyle expectations. 

Throw money at her, expensive dinners, trips, etc. Don't tell her the trip is off the table, it might hurt her feelings. FCS - they CANNOT AFFORD TO SEPARATE because the apartment cost would push them into the red and she is worried about seeing Mickey Mouse. And is now manipulating the situation via the children. 

DG is going to end up old, broke and celibate going down this path. 

If my W didn't want to spend time with me playing tennis, board games, wrestling having sex the LAST thing I would do is take her on expensive dates because that is using money to PAPER OVER the fact that she doesn't really like me. That just makes things WORSE because it allows us to pretend things are sort of all right. 





Catherine602 said:


> I think the advice to ask your wife is bad in my opinion.
> 
> I hate to see you shot down. If she does then you have your answer it is no to the marriage. I really think you need to pull the plug.
> 
> She is staying for her convience not because she wants to have a loving relationship.
> 
> DC you can have what you want and need. You can have a woman who is compatible and will give as much as you give.
> 
> Why do you are you allowing her to dismiss you? You are telling her that she is more important than you, that is no place to be.
> 
> Please don't reward her with a trip. She does not want to be in the relationship so why should you provide her with free travel.
> 
> Save your money for a trip with a loving woman.
> 
> Why do you keep hanging on?


----------



## Beowulf

Catherine602 said:


> I think the advice to ask your wife is bad in my opinion.
> 
> I hate to see you shot down. If she does then you have your answer it is no to the marriage. I really think you need to pull the plug.
> 
> She is staying for her convience not because she wants to have a loving relationship.
> 
> DC you can have what you want and need. You can have a woman who is compatible and will give as much as you give.
> 
> Why do you are you allowing her to dismiss you? You are telling her that she is more important than you, that is no place to be.
> 
> Please don't reward her with a trip. She does not want to be in the relationship so why should you provide her with free travel.
> 
> Save your money for a trip with a loving woman.
> 
> Why do you keep hanging on?


While I agree with your assessment the fact is that DG is not or has not been ready to pull the plug. I think he wants to make sure he has done everything possible so that if it comes to divorce he can do it with no regrets and no "what ifs." I just suggested one last attempt to see if his wife is in emotional doldrums or if she is just using DG to buoy her support system. I suspect she feels she did marry beneath her (btw, a horrible thing to think let alone say) and will never truly love DG like he should be loved. For what it's worth if DG does divorce her I think she is in for a rude awakening as to what expectations she had during their marriage. Frankly, I think DG settled when he got married.


----------



## Catherine602

Beowulf said:


> While I agree with your assessment the fact is that DG is not or has not been ready to pull the plug. I think he wants to make sure he has done everything possible so that if it comes to divorce he can do it with no regrets and no "what ifs." I just suggested one last attempt to see if his wife is in emotional doldrums or if she is just using DG to buoy her support system. I suspect she feels she did marry beneath her (btw, a horrible thing to think let alone say) and will never truly love DG like he should be loved. For what it's worth if DG does divorce her I think she is in for a rude awakening as to what expectations she had during their marriage. Frankly, I think DG settled when he got married.


No DC in the one who thinks that he married above him and that is the problem. Of course his wife thinks she is the one who settled, he let her. 

There may be a disparity in their looks and there is one with age but that does not matter.

My husband and I know a very average looking man with stunning wife. No it's not money or power - She loves him and is devoted to him almost slavishly. 

It is not unusual. She has money and her family is connected. He works but he is not in a class with her. You know what he has that DG does not? 

He has a healthy sense of his worth and he is not the type of man to be treated disrespectfully. He dotes on her but no more than she him. 

DG has the potential to be like this guy. He is very funny and he is not defensive and takes his hard knocks and comes back. I like reading his post because although it is painful, there is an indication that he has an elevated personality. 

It seems to light instead of darken even under these circumstances. Most of all, he is tease-able. People don't tease unless they like a person. So that comes through. 

The right woman would have a wonderful time with him and tease him to distraction.. 

:cat::cat::cat::cat::cat::cat::cat::cat::cat:


----------



## golfergirl

Catherine602 said:


> No DC in the one who thinks that he married above him and that is the problem. Of course his wife thinks she is the one who settled, he let her.
> 
> There may be a disparity in their looks and there is one with age but that does not matter.
> 
> My husband and I know a very average looking man with stunning wife. No it's not money or power - She loves him and is devoted to him almost slavishly.
> 
> It is not unusual. She has money and her family is connected. He works but he is not in a class with her. You know what he has that DG does not?
> 
> He has a healthy sense of his worth and he is not the type of man to be treated disrespectfully. He dotes on her but no more than she him.
> 
> DG has the potential to be like this guy. He is very funny and he is not defensive and takes his hard knocks and comes back. I like reading his post because although it is painful, there is an indication that he has an elevated personality.
> 
> It seems to light instead of darken even under these circumstances. Most of all, he is tease-able. People don't tease unless they like a person. So that comes through.
> 
> The right woman would have a wonderful time with him and tease him to distraction..
> 
> :cat::cat::cat::cat::cat::cat::cat::cat::cat:


He is very likeable isn't he?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

:toast:

Is that enough?


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> :toast:
> 
> Is that enough?


Whoohoooooooo

:allhail:


----------



## bandit.45

Good goin DG! Have to say you surprise me. Now what year is the next encounter scheduled for? 

Just kidding.... Congrats!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> You have to feel like a new man... Congrats! I am so curious to know though how she responded??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well...yesterday was my day to pick up kids...so I got home early. W was in a particularly friendly mood...not sure why. She made a nice dinner...while I helped DD1 with homework. We sent the kids packing to bed...and retired to the bed to watch Survivor. Once it was over...I got up...went to bathroom and lit a candle. Then I came back in, took her hand and said 'Let's go take a shower.' She was shocked..."WHAT? WHY?" I just said 'Cause'....and gently pulled her. She said no (meakly) once or twice...but then threw the covers off...and followed me in. We got in the shower...which was very awkward. She pretty much kept herself covered while I held her, and soaped her. But when I said, "Let's go to bed", she just said okay...and followed. So....we did our thing. Afterwards, we held each other for a couple minutes...then she went to {clean up.}

This next part is a bit *interesting*. When she came back to bed, I assumed the position (of old) for spooning. As she climbed into bed, she said "You're not thinking you can come over to my side, are you? You know I need my space." {huh}??!! :scratchhead: Before two years ago, we used to ALWAYS spoon until we fell asleep. I guess she got a little TOO used to having the bed to herself. Anyway, I cuddled her for about a minute...but could tell she was getting ansy....so I gave her back her space.

I did tell her, last night....'We need to do this a LOT more.' "We do?" 'Yes....it's good for stress, you know.' "Yes, I know."

Now...one thing....this experience was not her at her best, if you know what I mean. She basically allowed me to make love to her....not a lot of reciprocation.......BUT....she did enjoy it.


----------



## LovesHerMan

This is wonderful! Keep building on this experience, and do not allow her to distance you again.


----------



## warlock07

I couldn't stop grinning..I have this creepy smile on me for the last five minutes.

never has a man having sex with his wife celebrated so much


----------



## bandit.45

warlock07 said:


> I couldn't stop grinning..I have this creepy smile on me for the last five minutes.
> 
> never has a man having sex with his wife celebrated so much


Well there was that time when Abraham knocked up Sarah when she was like 80 or something....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> I couldn't stop grinning..I have this creepy smile on me for the last five minutes.
> 
> never has a man having sex with his wife celebrated so much


You think YOU are grinning!! :biggrinangelA:


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Well...yesterday was my day to pick up kids...so I got home early. W was in a particularly friendly mood...not sure why. She made a nice dinner...while I helped DD1 with homework. We sent the kids packing to bed...and retired to the bed to watch Survivor. Once it was over...I got up...went to bathroom and lit a candle. Then I came back in, took her hand and said 'Let's go take a shower.' She was shocked..."WHAT? WHY?" I just said 'Cause'....and gently pulled her. She said no (meakly) once or twice...but then threw the covers off...and followed me in. We got in the shower...which was very awkward. She pretty much kept herself covered while I held her, and soaped her. But when I said, "Let's go to bed", she just said okay...and followed. So....we did our thing. Afterwards, we held each other for a couple minutes...then she went to {clean up.}
> 
> This next part is a bit *interesting*. When she came back to bed, I assumed the position (of old) for spooning. As she climbed into bed, she said "You're not thinking you can come over to my side, are you? You know I need my space." {huh}??!! :scratchhead: Before two years ago, we used to ALWAYS spoon until we fell asleep. I guess she got a little TOO used to having the bed to herself. Anyway, I cuddled her for about a minute...but could tell she was getting ansy....so I gave her back her space.
> 
> I did tell her, last night....'We need to do this a LOT more.' "We do?" 'Yes....it's good for stress, you know.' "Yes, I know."
> 
> Now...one thing....this experience was not her at her best, if you know what I mean. She basically allowed me to make love to her....not a lot of reciprocation.......BUT....she did enjoy it.


My reading this is that you took charge and she followed suit. You were a true leader. That is how it is supposed to go. Don't worry about her "lack of response" or what she said afterwards. If you continue to press things like you did last night that should turn around as well. Again, stop trying to read her or interpret what you think she's thinking. Now you know what can happen if you just make it happen. Damn, I feel almost as good as you...almost. :lol: 

:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## Lovebug501

bandit.45 said:


> Well there was that time when Abraham knocked up Sarah when she was like 80 or something....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:


----------



## DailyGrind

bandit.45 said:


> Well there was that time when Abraham knocked up Sarah when she was like 80 or something....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bandit!!! Did YOU just tell a joke??!! Well....something ELSE to celebrate today. My first post that Bandit didn't respond with "Kick her azz to the curb!"


----------



## strugglinghusband

DG, I swear I got tears in my eyes (happy ones)...
GOOD FOR YOU!!!! So damn happy for you...you the man!!
whoop whoop there it its.....:smthumbup:


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Bandit!!! Did YOU just tell a joke??!! Well....something ELSE to celebrate today. My first post that Bandit didn't respond with "Kick her azz to the curb!"


Sniff, that little smiley face gets me all teary eyed.

I'm getting all verklempt!!!


----------



## bandit.45

DailyGrind said:


> Bandit!!! Did YOU just tell a joke??!! Well....something ELSE to celebrate today. My first post that Bandit didn't respond with "Kick her azz to the curb!"


What can I say? I'm a softy. Hope you get laid again soon!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

Goodfight exposes and DG gets laid


my world is upsidedown


----------



## warlock07

What next now?


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> I am only telling you this from experience (remember I was just like your wife).
> 
> You need to go back at it again tonight. Maybe wait until tomorrow, but I really think tonight. This is why:
> 
> 1. She has to be thinking about what just happened last night. And, she actually may be turned on by it.
> 
> 2. The more women have sex the more we want it.
> 
> 3. When you do go at it again (tonight), make sure you take care of her first.
> 
> 4. Make sure you tell her how much she turns you on. How much you have missed her. And, how you love her body and beautiful you think she is.
> 
> 5. I know she doesn't respond much to your texts...but, send her sexting messages. Not over the top ones...but, saying I loved last night. Send things that I mentioned in #4.
> 
> 6. GET HER TURNED ON. Make her want you.
> 
> DG...you have to stick to it and keep trying. I have been telling you this for the last 3 months. Trust me on this...


We'll see about tonight...but definitely by tomorrow. I already sent her one text this morning that the slacks she was wearing to work, REALLY fit her butt perfectly! I couldn't take my eyes off her. 

BTW...one thing my wife can always count on....she ALWAYS is taken care of first.


----------



## warlock07

Did you talk much during the er.... act? or was it a one way traffic?


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Did you talk much during the er.... act? or was it a one way traffic?


Oh no....we don't talk during. Wish she did...but no....can't interfere with her concentration. 

It was one way in the fact that she let me play with her, until she finished....then we did our deed. She didn't exactly dig her claws into my back, or anything. But it was definitely better than a cold fish.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Awesome job DG on sending that text (and everything else you have done in the last 24 hours). Did she respond? If not, don't worry just keep at it.
> 
> Remember, don't ask... always take the LEAD. Remember also...I was just like your wife for 19 years. I changed my whole outlook on sex/relationships after my husband took the LEAD.
> 
> Oh, and one other thing, I ALWAYS showered before sex...I got over that real quick.


Actually...I think the shower first worked perfectly. I didn't have to surprise her with a sudden major move. But, she obviously was clued into the expectation, once we hit the shower...and were naked together for the first time in 2 years. She knew what was up, and had a few moments to mentally prepare....without me giving up the "lead." It created a more gradual escalation...while establishing the outcome up front.

Oh...and no...she didn't respond to the text. She DID respond to the email (work), later, about something to do with Survivor. So..maybe she just hasn't seen her cell phone yet.


----------



## DailyGrind

Okay..here is a question for the ladies. Some point, before we stopped relations (I simply don't remember if one or two years before) wife suddenly changed her "grooming" to more of a RUNWAY style. I loved it...but wondered about the change. Well, last night I realized she was more of a short MOHAWK type. Very thin line, if you know what I mean. This, from someone who supposedly han't had relations for two years, either. If you ladies are not having sex....would this make sense? Seems awful sexy, if she isn't in that role. Just curious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## working_together

Great news.....keep up the good work. Just don't wait two weeks though, you have to make it a routine now, don't get back into that rut.


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> Okay..here is a question for the ladies. Some point, before we stopped relations (I simply don't remember if one or two years before) wife suddenly changed her "grooming" to more of a RUNWAY style. I loved it...but wondered about the change. Well, last night I realized she was more of a short MOHAWK type. Very thin line, if you know what I mean. This, from someone who supposedly han't had relations for two years, either. If you ladies are not having sex....would this make sense? Seems awful sexy, if she isn't in that role. Just curious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, don't want to say it, but it is a bit weird that she's grooming. I haven't had sex in 7 weeks, and I'm only doing "minor grooming", I'm like "who cares...." :rofl:

Again....ask her, have you not even seen her naked in two years??? Or, maybe she knew this moment together was coming very soon, and wanted to look errr, sexy.


----------



## DailyGrind

Nope.. Haven't even seen her those two years..except the one time I accidentally walked in on her in the bathroom. I don't want to spoil anything yet, by asking. But is curious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> Nope.. Haven't even seen her those two years..except the one time I accidentally walked in on her in the bathroom. I don't want to spoil anything yet, by asking. But is curious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't mean ask her right out "why you shaving like that", but in a more subtle manner, maybe say "wow, that's new for you, how long have you been doing that".....subtle, with compliments.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Weather sex involved or not I would shave down there. Hair there is gross to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well..she went through 33 years with just a bikini cut. 3-4 years ago dramatic change to a roughly 2" wide trim above, shaved below. Then, during out drought to a very narrow strip. She always told me would never do a full shave cause that was too girly. But..this seems awfully close. Paranoid?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Learn to live in hell --Sponsored by DailyGrind


The thing is, most of your concerns are valid but are not incriminating enough. :banghead::banghead::banghead::cussing:


----------



## CandieGirl

Crap. Missed out by that much on being the 1400th post...pfff...


----------



## DailyGrind

CandieGirl said:


> Crap. Missed out by that much on being the 1400th post...pfff...


You can still give me your female perspective on the grooming. If you wait after two more posts...you can be 1405 (if that helps.)


----------



## DailyGrind

CandieGirl said:


> Crap. Missed out by that much on being the 1400th post...pfff...


Is that a record? {see...now you only have to wait for one more post}


----------



## CandieGirl

I've been shaving most of it off for the last 15 years or so...regardless of sexual activity.

As a newlywed, I am having the least sexual activity of my entire life right now, and I still shave.


----------



## CandieGirl

I often wondered about this thread. How long it is! What it's about! But never have read til now. Obviously not all of it...


----------



## Almostrecovered

DailyGrind said:


> Is that a record? {see...now you only have to wait for one more post}


not even close, I've seen threads with 120+ pages


----------



## bandit.45

DailyGrind said:


> Well..she went through 33 years with just a bikini cut. 3-4 years ago dramatic change to a roughly 2" wide trim above, shaved below. Then, during out drought to a very narrow strip. She always told me would never do a full shave cause that was too girly. But..this seems awfully close. Paranoid?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's maintaining the landing strip. She wants you to go down on her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> not even close, I've seen threads with 120+ pages


Well...I don't want any more complications that drag this post out THAT far.

That being said....it ain't over yet. I don't think this changes anything with respect to her wanting "space." That discussion is still next week. But maybe, just maybe, it helps. 

And....Lord willing.....maybe this thread can start dying a slow death...INSTEAD of my marriage.


----------



## DailyGrind

bandit.45 said:


> She's maintaining the landing strip. She wants you to go down on her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you kidding...it isn't a landing strip anymore. It's a knife! 

Trust me...in the day....I just LOVED doing that to her. She liked it..but only after she got going....otherwise...it just tickled her.


----------



## bandit.45

Try again. More lips less tongue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Just got a response text from W...."Settle down there!"

Trying to figure out the perfect response.


----------



## bandit.45

Iwant2bhappy said:


> To bad my husband didn't read this...I never have like him going down on me. Doesn't do much for me. Maybe your advice is what is needed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Despite my wife's adulterous tendencies, sex was never our problem. She was always forward and vocal about what she wanted me to do for her sexually. If oral turned DG's wife on early in the relationship he should try again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

I'll skip the "turn me on" part


----------



## DailyGrind

I'm hoping she is using humor here...and not a command. Assuming so...I think humor in response is called for. I don't think she is ready for deep feelings stuff.


----------



## PHTlump

DailyGrind said:


> I'm hoping she is using humor here...and not a command. Assuming so...I think humor in response is called for. I don't think she is ready for deep feelings stuff.


I think you can ignore it. You don't have to respond to every text she sends you. You can flirt with her tonight or tomorrow night to keep the vibe going.

If she mentions her text, just laugh.


----------



## DailyGrind

Well, I already responded with: 'Hey, just say'n. Good thing I had that big robe on, this morning.'
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## working_together

bandit.45 said:


> Despite my wife's adulterous tendencies, sex was never our problem. She was always forward and vocal about what she wanted me to do for her sexually. If oral turned DG's wife on early in the relationship he should try again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



So now this thread is leaning towards tips for good oral sex....:rofl:


----------



## working_together

warlock07 said:


> I'll skip the "turn me on" part


I agree...too much, desperate looking.


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> I'm hoping she is using humor here...and not a command. Assuming so...I think humor in response is called for. I don't think she is ready for deep feelings stuff.


Your wife is so complicated, she has sex with you, but you don't think "she's ready for deep feelings"....does that make sense?


----------



## DailyGrind

working_together said:


> Your wife is so complicated, she has sex with you, but you don't think "she's ready for deep feelings"....does that make sense?


Nope. But then, not a whole lot has made much sense lately. We'll see....last night might have just been a fluke (took her by surprise.) Let's just see how she reacts to the next time (before the end of the weekend.) If she goes for that one too.....I'll feel worlds better about things.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> When you say this experience was not her best...
> 
> One positive thing is, she hasn't had much practice so you can drop the PA theory, right?


Well...I just meant it was obviously a physical thing for her...not a lustful/emotional one. But hey...maybe that will come around. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CandieGirl

Makes me want to take my husband to the shower later tonight. Yum!


----------



## bandit.45

I get to bathe my dogs. Sigh...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cledus_snow

i've only been here a short time, but this is the best thread on here.

it seems you really want to save your marriage, and everyone is pulling for you. that's why everyone chimes-in with suggestions. they have a vested interest in seeing this through.

good show!


----------



## hisfac

DailyGrind said:


> I did tell her, last night....'We need to do this a LOT more.' "We do?" 'Yes....it's good for stress, you know.' "Yes, I know."
> 
> Now...one thing....this experience was not her at her best, if you know what I mean. She basically allowed me to make love to her....not a lot of reciprocation.......BUT....she did enjoy it.


Well I give you credit for making the move but her responses don't leave me all that optimistic. Sounds like she was just going along with it to get you off her back, pun intended.

I guess you'll find out the next time you initiate because she will have been thinking about how she's going to respond when it comes up again. Pun intended again.


----------



## Beowulf

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Weather sex involved or not I would shave down there. Hair there is gross to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hell, I shave down there! Well, I groom and very very carefully.


----------



## Beowulf

Iwant2bhappy said:


> To bad my husband didn't read this...I never have like him going down on me. Doesn't do much for me. Maybe your advice is what is needed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or do like Sam Kinison always suggested....lick the alphabet.


----------



## Almostrecovered

More T!! More T!!


----------



## Almostrecovered

DG finally petted the cat


----------



## Chaparral

For one thing about the grooming. You told her a few days ago what you were planning.

Good work. Always leave some texts unanswered.

This is one of the best things that has happened around here in a long time.

Salute

:BoomSmilie_anim:


----------



## Beowulf

Iwant2bhappy said:


> But, Bandit was saying less tongue more lips.:smthumbup:


Hey, variety is the spice of wife...err...life.


----------



## bandit.45

And don't forget to tongue her tween.


----------



## Chaparral

Oh, by the way, don't be bringing up the "need space, moving out" crap. Be happy, strong and upbeat. And don't over think any little setbacks.

Just work on a lot of sex, almost like newly weds, and don't let it slow down this time. Its what married people do.


----------



## Beowulf

chapparal said:


> Oh, by the way, don't be bringing up the "need space, moving out" crap. Be happy, strong and upbeat. And don't over think any little setbacks.
> 
> Just work on a lot of sex, almost like newly weds, and don't let it slow down this time. Its what married people do.


Yeah DG, keep this up and soon you'll be like me and be begging for a night off...

*NOT*


----------



## Almostrecovered

And dont be shy with the details


----------



## cledus_snow

"It is a Romance Novel."

it feels a little like "The Truman Show," to me.

we're the audience, and DG is the protagonist.


----------



## Beowulf

We're all living vicariously through DG. Don't let us down buddy!

No pressure though. :allhail:


----------



## working_together

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but what happens if she's having sex with him because of the trips???

Just a thought...


----------



## Beowulf

working_together said:


> I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but what happens if she's having sex with him because of the trips???
> 
> Just a thought...


Shhhh...just positive thoughts.

Repeat after me...

DG is a sex god
DG is an alpha male
DG is desired by women everywhere
DG's wife is lucky he allows her to go to bed with him
DG's sex life will continue to grow like hair on a Rabbi's chin

(not sure where that last one came from) :scratchhead:


----------



## dymo

working_together said:


> I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but what happens if she's having sex with him because of the trips???
> 
> Just a thought...


That's an inevitable consequence of turning the trip into a bargaining chip in the marriage. It means that any improvement can be seen as having an ulterior motive.

Not a question we can answer now, but time will tell. If they do take the trip, then her behavior post-DW will answer it for us.


----------



## karole

DG's head is so far up in the clouds, he will take his wife anywhere she wants to go - TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!!!! Go DG!


----------



## Catherine602

DG I am happy for you but concerned at the same time.

I don't want to rain on your parade but I have to say - she is not being very loving after reconnecting with her husband after 2ong years. 

Thinking as a woman, if I decided that, after a rocky time, I loved my H, I would be all over that bad boy after sex Why would I be cold and indifferent? I made a positive decision that I love him. That means passionate make up sex is in order every day for next 6 months. Its a celebration not a wake. 

There seems to be something off in your wife's response. It does not say love but toleration. The attitude is the same? 

I am considering that there is a large sum of money coming in, a trip, and Disneyland beckons. 

Maybe I am being unfair to your wife so just consider it and keep it in mind. please be cautious in opening your heart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

DG,
I never saw a response from you about why she was "letting you have sex with her" for a while before the 2 year deep freeze. She told you she was hoping things would "get better" and then she "gave up" when they didn't. I asked you what she wanted. Do you really not know?

As for her motives here they seem very obvious. She is going to be VERY angry and shut down on you if you don't agree to DW. This seems fairly simple. She LETS you have sex with her just enough to get you to feel desire to please her. And then she gets her trip. How can you enjoy sex in that context? 




Catherine602 said:


> DG I am happy for you but concerned at the same time.
> 
> I don't want to rain on your parade but I have to say - she is not being very loving after reconnecting with her husband after 2ong years.
> 
> Thinking as a woman, if I decided that, after a rocky time, I loved my H, I would be all over that bad boy after sex Why would I be cold and indifferent? I made a positive decision that I love him. Loving him toe means passionate make up sex every day for 6 months. it a celebration not a wake.
> 
> There seems to be something off in your wife's response. It does not say love but toleration. The attitude is the same?
> 
> I am considering that there is a large sum of money coming in, a trip, and Disneyland beckons.
> 
> Maybe I am being unfair to your wife so just consider it and keep it in mind. I don't want to rain on your parade but please be cautious in opening your heart.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

You guys are baaaaaaad
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

MEM11363 said:


> DG,
> I never saw a response from you about why she was "letting you have sex with her" for a while before the 2 year deep freeze. She told you she was hoping things would "get better" and then she "gave up" when they didn't. I asked you what she wanted. Do you really not know?
> 
> As for her motives here they seem very obvious. She is going to be VERY angry and shut down on you if you don't agree to DW. This seems fairly simple. She LETS you have sex with her just enough to get you to feel desire to please her. And then she gets her trip. How can you enjoy sex in that context?


So you're saying she's basically a prostitute. Turning tricks to get her Mickey Mouse fix. 

Yeah..... I can see that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Bandit,
I like you - really I do. But you just crossed a line here. It is not my place to "label" DG's wife. I really mean that. I am attempting to get him to see how he is creating a terrible and unworkable precedent if he allows a few rounds in bed to offset:
- 2 years of sexlessness AND
- Her clear and consistent message that she is not happy with him - followed by "I don't know what I want, and have no idea what either of us can do to make it better"
- The fact that they lack the net worth to afford an apartment if they want to separate
- The very ugly fact that right after sex she wanted him to leave her alone physically - this was a physical act she tolerated not a step toward emotionally connecting with him

I do think they are not even close to compatible. I also think that DG places such a high priority on her attractiveness that he is/was willing to be treated with disdain to keep her around. 

I think she is and always has focused on "what he can do for her". That is ok as a component to a marriage, but if that is the SOLE DRIVER for being with someone, the outcome he has gotten to date is very much the norm. 




bandit.45 said:


> So you're saying she's basically a prostitute. Turning tricks to get her Mickey Mouse fix.
> 
> Yeah..... I can see that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

MEM11363 said:


> Bandit,
> I like you - really I do. But you just crossed a line here. It is not my place to "label" DG's wife. I really mean that. I am attempting to get him to see how he is creating a terrible and unworkable precedent if he allows a few rounds in bed to offset:
> - 2 years of sexlessness AND
> - Her clear and consistent message that she is not happy with him - followed by "I don't know what I want, and have no idea what either of us can do to make it better"
> - The fact that they lack the net worth to afford an apartment if they want to separate
> - The very ugly fact that right after sex she wanted him to leave her alone physically - this was a physical act she tolerated not a step toward emotionally connecting with him
> 
> I do think they are not even close to compatible. I also think that DG places such a high priority on her attractiveness that he is/was willing to be treated with disdain to keep her around.
> 
> I think she is and always has focused on "what he can do for her". That is ok as a component to a marriage, but if that is the SOLE DRIVER for being with someone, the outcome he has gotten to date is very much the norm.


You and I agree completely. But tell me this and be honest, what is the difference between what she is doing to DG to get him to cave to her demands and what a prostitute does for money?

Manipulation.... plain and simple. Sorry if I don't sugarcoat it enough for you.


----------



## Catherine602

Let just say this without mentioning the big P when talking about the woman who DG loves. it is out of respect for DG not to talk about his woman like that. 

Women have been known to use sex to manipulate men. The manipulation is cold and calculating to me. It usually involves a man in love and needs the sexual connection to affirm his partners love. That's where the cold part comes in. She has sex knowing that he will interpret the act as a show of love. 

As a previous poster said a sexually sarisfied man who believes he is loved will do a great deal to make his partner happy. That where the calculating part comes in. 

It takes a special kind of person to watch DG get excited and giving out of reclamation of love, knowing that sex means nothing but a means to an end. That is if this is what is happening. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

All supposition and conjecture with no connection to reality. Very destructive posts. I'm embarrassed by the negativity shown here and the disregard shown DG's family. I no longer wonder why so many posters seeking help abandon this forum.


----------



## golfergirl

Catherine602 said:


> Let just say this without mentioning the big P when talking about the woman who DG loves. it is out of respect for DG not to talk about his woman like that.
> 
> Women have been known to use sex to manipulate men. The manipulation is cold and calculating to me. It usually involves a man in love and needs the sexual connection to affirm his partners love. That's where the cold part comes in. She has sex knowing that he will interpret the act as a show of love.
> 
> As a previous poster said a sexually sarisfied man who believes he is loved will do a great deal to make his partner happy. That where the calculating part comes in.
> 
> It takes a special kind of person to watch DG get excited and giving out of reclamation of love, knowing that sex means nothing but a means to an end. That is if this is what is happening. .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Honestly that's why I wished Disney was off the table from the start. Not as punishment but as true gauge to her state of mind.
please DG, don't bring Disney up as yay or nay. If she brings it up, dismiss it, saying you have other focus like building a healthy marriage which is what you're focused on. If she is disappointed - normal. If she goes cold on you - then you have some thinking to do on her motivations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## golfergirl

chapparal said:


> All supposition and conjecture with no connection to reality. Very destructive posts. I'm embarrassed by the negativity shown here and the disregard shown DG's family. I no longer wonder why so many posters seeking help abandon this forum.


His own words - they had sex but she was not very snuggly after. Proceed with caution - protect your heart. Red flag - kids bringing up Disney when DG said no. Again protect heart - that's all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Catherine602 said:


> Let just say this without mentioning the big P when talking about the woman who DG loves. it is out of respect for DG not to talk about his woman like that.
> 
> Women have been known to use sex to manipulate men. The manipulation is cold and calculating to me. It usually involves a man in love and needs the sexual connection to affirm his partners love. That's where the cold part comes in. She has sex knowing that he will interpret the act as a show of love.
> 
> As a previous poster said a sexually sarisfied man who believes he is loved will do a great deal to make his partner happy. That where the calculating part comes in.
> 
> It takes a special kind of person to watch DG get excited and giving out of reclamation of love, knowing that sex means nothing but a means to an end. That is if this is what is happening. .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I respect DG. I don't respect his wife.


----------



## Chaparral

golfergirl said:


> Honestly that's why I wished Disney was off the table from the start. Not as punishment but as true gauge to her state of mind.
> please DG, don't bring Disney up as yay or nay. If she brings it up, dismiss it, saying you have other focus like building a healthy marriage which is what you're focused on. If she is disappointed - normal. If she goes cold on you - then you have some thinking to do on her motivations.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If he takes Disney off the table the kids and his wife will all think of him as an ogre. Just can't see how that moves things along in a positive direction. As a matter of fact that would probably be a deal breaker. If DG wants a divorce thats what he should do.


----------



## Chaparral

Has anyone here read DG's first thread?


----------



## strugglinghusband

DG, baby steps..it was a train wreck in the making for years?, not going to get back on the tracks right away, she did have sex with you, maybe just maybe that is her way of taking baby steps, slowly trying to reconnect with you, there is no way she's gonna be all snuggly and hugging right away...


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## bandit.45

chapparal said:


> All supposition and conjecture with no connection to reality. Very destructive posts. I'm embarrassed by the negativity shown here and the disregard shown DG's family. I no longer wonder why so many posters seeking help abandon this forum.


I don't get you Chap.

In forums where a spouse commits adultery, you are all over them, and giving the BS all the advice and tips s/he needs to bust the wayward and make sure they are exposed. I've heard you say some pretty harsh things about waywards in your posts.

In this post you have been nothing but an enabler --for both DG and his wife -- to continue on slogging ahead with what many of us clearly see is a farce of a marriage. 

My wife is a serial cheater. I have come to terms with it and am divorcing her. But as wayward as she is, I cannot complain about the other 75% of our marriage. For the most part, even after her first affair long ago, she took care of me as a husband. As immoral as she is, she at least has some clue as to what it means to be a giving partner and to take care of the needs of a spouse. Her problem was, her self-destructive tendencies always booby trapped what was otherwise a mutually satisfying partnership between us. 

If I was going to be banished to an island, and I had a choice between taking my wife or DG's wife along as a companion, I would choose my WW in a nanosecond. 

From everything I have read about DG and his wife, she has done nothing proactive to create a loving and nurturing relationship with her husband... from the very beginning. Her refusal to have sex with him on their wedding night should have been enough for him to pull the ring off her finger and drop her off at her parent's house, saying adios muchacha! as he drove away. 

The poor guy tries and tries. He makes the adjustments she asks for, and as soon as he learns her rules, she changes them again. She condemns him for wrongs comitted against her in their past, yet cannot fully articulate just what those crimes were. She sits on her a*s in MC, letting him do all the work while maintaining her status as victim. 

I don't care if she's a good mom. Big deal. Actually I'm not convinced she is. Whether or not this is true, it doesn't give her a free pass to treat the rest of her marriage with laziness and contempt. 

Oh lord, I could go on and on....

Tell you what Chap and Catherine, I'll drop out of this thread to spare the two of you my directness. Frankly, in my opinion a forum should be a place where people have the right to speak their mind. Well, I've spoken mine and I apologize if I have come across as crass and insensitive. 

I want DG to succeed as much as you all do, but I think his wife is the one who holds all the cards in this poker game, and he needs to decide when enough is enough, time to fold, and cash in what little he has left.


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## tennisstar

I don't think we are trying to be negative, just realistic. I'm a bit concerned that daily's wife was emotionally cold afterwards. And remember, he said she didnt realky participate, more like she laid there. In earlier posts, he said that she used to just lay there before. 

w she may come around. Or she may be doing this to get the trip. We don't know her. But we are saying daily should be cautious. That's all we are saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

bandit, the problem here is we only hear one side of the story. What we are hearing is DG perception of his wife. It is not a complete picture. Considering that their marriage is on its last legs, don't you think DG snooping on her car a vital blow on her trust of him. There is a part of him that does not trust her in spite of all his love messages. Maybe she can sense the distrust. Maybe that is why she couldn't dive back into the marriage as fast as she could. There are genuine concerns on both sides of the marriage. And the way she is reacting is only worsening the DG's paranoia which is in turn distancing his wife. It is a vicious circle. One of the parties need a take a leap of faith.


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## DailyGrind

All, I'm still here...and appreciate all the feedback. I've got a busy morning, here at work....but will give an update (and responses) in a couple hours. MANY THANKS!!


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## Catherine602

Bandit I was offering an opinion not a criticism. Besides DG needs to hear from you so don't abandon him. Who cares if people disagree, it is DG thread and he did not invite you off. 

As for excessive negativity - I don't know what should you do when a person appears to be in the path of a Mack truck, tell them to relax it won't hurt as much? 

Hope is a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, you expect the best on the other you expect the best way past the point when it is obvious there is no hope. In relationships, the person holding out false hope becomes a doormat. 

Encouraging DG to reward his wife with a trip for one episode of flaccid sex for the first time in two years, is not good IMA. if she were fully engaged with DG in a loving manner then he should jump in with vigor. Anything less than full engagement by his wife is not good enough for DG. 

The best insurance against doormat status is to have a healthy sense of self respect and never give more than you get in a relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## working_together

I think DG can take all the advice, good or bad.

Daily, I seriously think you've got yourself in a pickle now.....

You know if you take the DW trip off the table, there won't be any more sex, and whoa, the resentment will be harsh. It'll top the list of the cat issues, and the boat and tomato plants. This time it'll be "you ruined it for the kids and me".

You should have taken it off the table before you engaged in sexual activity. You would have then known if her interest in you sexually was genuine. Now you really don't know her motive.

Sorry to be a bit negative....I'm hoping I'm wrong, really, I am. I


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## Halien

DailyGrind said:


> I'm hoping she is using humor here...and not a command. Assuming so...I think humor in response is called for. I don't think she is ready for deep feelings stuff.


Personally think that humor should be the last thing on the agenda now. No comments about how great 'the sex' was, either. Rule of thumb is that if her humor is 'pushing away humor', don't reciprocate with humor because she's trying to tell you nicely to back away. If it is flirty and engaging humor, she is inviting a similar reply. If the goal is for her to break through the status quo, it has to be about 'her' when you speak to her about sex. About seeing her be able to grow to a place where she feels safe when the two of you are together. Just my opinion.


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## PHTlump

chapparal said:


> If he takes Disney off the table the kids and his wife will all think of him as an ogre. Just can't see how that moves things along in a positive direction. As a matter of fact that would probably be a deal breaker. If DG wants a divorce thats what he should do.


If moving things in a positive direction means that his wife continues to view him as an ATM, then I agree with you completely. He should take the family to DisneyWorld, and then to Barcelona. His wife will be as happy as if she just won a few grand in one of those scratch the ticket lottery games.

If you mean that DG can buy his way into a happy marriage with a few trips, and whatever else his wife can put on her shopping list, then I disagree.


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## Lovebug501

Catherine602 said:


> Thinking as a woman, if I decided that, after a rocky time, I loved my H, I would be all over that bad boy after sex Why would I be cold and indifferent? I made a positive decision that I love him. That means passionate make up sex is in order every day for next 6 months. Its a celebration not a wake.
> 
> There seems to be something off in your wife's response. It does not say love but toleration. The attitude is the same? _Posted via Mobile Device_


Respectfully, I disagree with you here... I made the decision to love my husband after a VERY rocky time period... and I make the decision to love him every day... but I'm not obligated or desirous of "passionate make up sex every day for the next 6 months"... 

I'll have sex with my husband 2-3 times per week or more, but not nightly... and the days I don't is not because I don't love him. It's just very low on my priority list and some days I just want to do something else... like sleep. I have made a commitment to do it at least 2-3 times per week because I know it's high on his priority list.

You can't expect a woman who wasn't incredibly passionate before a 2 year dry spell to suddenly turn into a nymphomaniac.. if she had, you'd all be screaming that she'd been sleeping around on him this whole time and learning new stuff from someone else.

DG needs to be allowed to have this moment without everyone turning his happy "after glow" to doubt and suspicion.

Think about it this way... they haven't seen each other naked in *two years*... and she's never been one to flaunt her body... this is a huge step... she was probably shy and embarrassed afterward. I've been there.. and I've also pulled away from cuddling because it's hot or he's all sweaty or I'm just not physically comfortable in that position...


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## PHTlump

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Wow, you are all harsh. I was just like his wife and take offense to what everyone is saying.


If, by saying you were just like his wife, you mean that you denied your husband sex from the very beginning of your marriage, behaved inappropriately with other men, became offended when he expressed his love, and then refused to participate in counseling, then I can see how you would be offended. I assume your marriage is happier now. Did your husband bring about a change in your behavior by buying you things or taking you on trips?



Iwant2bhappy said:


> Not one of you know her side of the story, NOT ONE!!!


Do you think DG is lying? Obviously we don't have his wife's side of the story. That goes without saying. But I doubt DG is such a committed troll that he would invent details to discuss on an internet forum.



Iwant2bhappy said:


> Though I am rooting for DG...I believe he is just as much as fault as her. He didn't make the effort to make things better either, until the last 6 months or so. And, really not until he thought she was cheating.
> 
> Maybe he should of cared more about her prior to this...


He is partially at fault. He has admitted that. But I hesitate to say he's just as at fault as her. Given that she refuses to tell him any substantive issues that she has, do you blame him for failing to read her mind? Do you think he should just be content to take her on trips until he can sufficiently develop his psychic powers?


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## Beowulf

I just wanted DG to have a few moments of happiness considering all the stuff he's put up with for so long. I'm sure if things come up he will handle them or come here to vent or for advice or all of the above. I just was hoping people wouldn't pee in his Cheerios until after he poured the milk and looked into the bowl.


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## DailyGrind

Wow guys.....great posts. I guess I'll add a couple points.

A) I don't really think her having sex with me had anything to do with Disney. I think it had more to do with me catching her off guard. Truth will be more telling if there is a second time. {more on this in a moment}

B) I agree that Disney needs to be off the table, for now. I think I'll tell her that I believe we should postpone the trip until Fall.

I get my bonus next Wednesday. I still don't know how much it will be. At minimum...it will be enough for us to 1) catch up on all bills; 2) put some much needed maintenance into both our cars; and EITHER go to Disney...of afford a decent apartment, should we separate.

I would expect that once I get my bonus, W and I will need to sit down to continue the separation discussion. If she tries to bring up Disney (as in affordability versus apartment), I will simply tell her I am not discussing Disney at this time. If she attempts, in any way, to defer (as far as I can tell) her separation decision, so as not to jeopardize the Disney trip....I will tell her that Disney is not happening. Sex, or no sex, I want to know what is in her mind. If she is just flirting around the D decision...and trying to dip her toe in....I'm all for throwing her into the deep end. I just can't do it, if I'm misreading her in any way. If she chooses separation......I suspect her heart REALLY is for D. The way she responded to me, when I told her (Sunday) that I felt she was answering no about D, because it just seemed like she was scared to say it........really didn't make me feel any more comfortable that isn't really what she wants. The question is why? She still does show signs of being in some form of fog. Every day, though....I feel more comfortable that I have been doing everything I could possibly do to turn this ship around. 

As for the sex...yes, it was nice to have again. But like I wrote yesterday...I don't have any illusion this solved ANY of our problems. She isn't exactly professing her undying love for me, because of Wednesday night. Last night, she was not feeling well (stomach upset.) So, I obviously wasn't going to push anything. We went to bed together to watch tv, and go to sleep. But she pretty much immediately went into sleep mode; so I got up and went downstairs to watch a couple shows. She wasn't really any friendlier to me last night....in fact maybe a bit stand-offish. I asked her to see about a sitter, so we could go out on Saturday. She seemed okay to do that....but not exactly excited by the idea. Maybe because she wasn't feeling well....don't know.

Anyway...next week should be interesting. If she shows the inclination that she REALLY does want to separate, and move out. I will push her hard to get going. I'll ask her to move into a hotel, for a week...to see how she likes it. I will push hard for HER to be the one that leaves. And if she does......probably file for D. As I said before....if she wants to show SOME level of committment to the M....I'll move Heaven and Earth for her. BUT...she HAS to take steps toward me, as well. We have to move toward EACH OTHER. It can't be me moving all the way to her. Mutual committment.


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## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> Wow guys.....great posts. I guess I'll add a couple points.
> 
> A) I don't really think her having sex with me had anything to do with Disney. I think it had more to do with me catching her off guard. Truth will be more telling if there is a second time. {more on this in a moment}
> 
> B) I agree that Disney needs to be off the table, for now. I think I'll tell her that I believe we should postpone the trip until Fall.
> 
> I get my bonus next Wednesday. I still don't know how much it will be. At minimum...it will be enough for us to 1) catch up on all bills; 2) put some much needed maintenance into both our cars; and EITHER go to Disney...of afford a decent apartment, should we separate.


I will add that if you are needing the bonus to catch up with bills and do maintenance on your car, then the remaining money should be saved for emergencies. Crappy things happen to people all the time, like transmissions going out, pipes bursting, you name it. DW is a want, not a need. A running car or a house with water are needs. Even if you don't split, you need a fund to help you deal with those unexpected episodes that pop up in life. You don't even need to tie it to the current state of your marriage - tie it to your current economic state.


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## DailyGrind

Tall Average Guy said:


> I will add that if you are needing the bonus to catch up with bills and do maintenance on your car, then the remaining money should be saved for emergencies. Crappy things happen to people all the time, like transmissions going out, pipes bursting, you name it. DW is a want, not a need. A running car or a house with water are needs. Even if you don't split, you need a fund to help you deal with those unexpected episodes that pop up in life. You don't even need to tie it to the current state of your marriage - tie it to your current economic state.


Oh, trust me...I plan on leaving extra regardless. Bear in mind, this bonus has the potential of being 10-30% of my base salary. And quite a potential for a 5-10% raise as well. I' e worked very hard to get where I am right now. Within 5 years I stand a very good chance of making VP.....and an upper middle-class salary. She is potentially bailing JUST when the world opens up to us. It would be her loss, and my kids' (and someone else's) gain. Just is 't rational.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

I am so glad to read this. Sorry for misjudging your smarts. 

I am praying this is the beginning of a reconnecting for her. I think frequent sex is essential for the bonding process. The hormones illicited help the process. I was kidding about the frequency but more than once a month keeps those hormones at optimal levels. Everyday for 6 month would be nice. ;}

More than that I am praying that what ever you do that you find the love you so richly deserve.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Oh, trust me...I plan on leaving extra regardless. Bear in mind, this bonus has the potential of being 10-30% of my base salary. And quite a potential for a 5-10% raise as well. I' e worked very hard to get where I am right now. Within 5 years I stand a very good chance of making VP.....and an upper middle-class salary. She is potentially bailing JUST when the world opens up to us. It would be her loss, and my kids' (and someone else's) gain. Just is 't rational.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's just it. Feelings are not rational. And your wife hasn't given you any indication as to what her feelings really are. It also must be postulated that she herself may not know what she is feeling. It's the price we pay for being human. The mind has two sides and they are often conflicting. Instinct and intelligence. Intuition and logic. Emotion and corporeality. It can be perplexing to try to harmonize it all.


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## Beowulf

Catherine602 said:


> I am so glad to read this. Sorry for misjudging your smarts.
> 
> I am praying this is the beginning of a reconnecting for her. I think frequent sex is essential for the bonding process. The hormones illicited help the process. I was kidding about the frequency but more than once a month keeps those hormones at optimal levels. Everyday for 6 month would be nice. ;}
> 
> More than that I am praying that what ever you do that you find the love you so richly deserve.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Biologically speaking every 5 days should be the rule of thumb since after that time period is when sperm tend to die and our bodies instinctively know that.


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## Catherine602

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Wow, you are all harsh. I was just like his wife and take offense to what everyone is saying.
> 
> Not one of you know her side of the story, NOT ONE!!!
> 
> Though I am rooting for DG...I believe he is just as much as fault as her. He didn't make the effort to make things better either, until the last 6 months or so. And, really not until he thought she was cheating.
> 
> Maybe he should of cared more about her prior to this...


This is true thanks for reminding us. DG has been honest about his contribution to the problems in his marriage and says he has changed. But is true we don't know her side. 

What ever it is, you have to remember she cheated and has not acknowledged nor atoned for that. 

Some of the posters have been horribly betrayed by their partner. The fact that she acts as if DG should just accept her cheating and move on does paint her as a cold hearted person. Her side would be relevant but her cheating makes her 100% responsible for DG frantic stares. Under those cercumstances she deserves what she gets. 

Your situation sound different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

Catherine602 said:


> I am so glad to read this. Sorry for misjudging your smarts.
> 
> I am praying this is the beginning of a reconnecting for her. I think frequent sex is essential for the bonding process. The hormones illicited help the process. I was kidding about the frequency but more than once a month keeps those hormones at optimal levels. Everyday for 6 month would be nice. ;}
> 
> More than that I am praying that what ever you do that you find the love you so richly deserve.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, Catherine.

To address some comments from yesterday. I don't think I married "above" me. The only concern I ever had was/is that my wife is about 11years yonger than me. Obviously not a problem for ME...but wondered if that ever plays in HER mind. That being said...I've ALWAYS looked much younger than I am. I'm almost 50....but have recently been told I could easily pull off older 30's. Of course people tend to undershoot when they "guess" out loud...but still, I don't look my age. I'm not "athletic build",but still have a decent form. I'm typically somewhat outgoing, and have a pretty good sense of humor. Don't get me wrong....I've never been able to walk in a bar and pick up anyone I want. But, I definitely have decent looks and personality that I can do alright. I seem to be liked by most I meet. So....married up? I don't think so. But, I do worry about my age being a hindrence, if I have to start over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

> If she tries to bring up Disney (as in affordability versus apartment), I will simply tell her I am not discussing Disney at this time. If she attempts, in any way, to defer (as far as I can tell) her separation decision, so as not to jeopardize the Disney trip....I will tell her that Disney is not happening.


I think you need to be careful and delicate while discussing this. i don't think she is playing nice for a Disney trip. Don't you think that it is aiming too low for a woman in her late 30's? Try to discuss it as some practicality and be careful so that it does not come off as something you are punishing her for the separation.


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## dymo

Honestly never liked the idea of taking the trip off the table in the first place. Not something I'd be comfortable with doing when kids are involved.


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## Tall Average Guy

dymo said:


> Honestly never liked the idea of taking the trip off the table in the first place. Not something I'd be comfortable with doing when kids are involved.


I am not sure why not. DG needs to get his financial house in order, regardless of whether they stay married. A trip to DW is a luxory they cannot afford right now. I would make it clear that this is a financial decision, not a punishment/status of the marriage issue.

It may disappoint the kids, but if she is working on the marriage, she will work with DG to soften the blow and explain why they cannot do it at this time.


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## DailyGrind

W and I have been havIng a nice text banter today. She mentioned needing to schedule a Dr appt. I responded "for more birth control"...then joked she just wanted some more. She joked back, but didn't deny it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar

Thats great. Maybe your wife will come around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dymo

DailyGrind said:


> W and I have been havIng a nice text banter today. She mentioned needing to schedule a Dr appt. I responded "for more birth control"...then joked she just wanted some more. She joked back, but didn't deny it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What's the real reason she's scheduling the Dr appt? Depression? Sleep apnea? Upset stomach?


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## Catherine602

DailyGrind said:


> W and I have been havIng a nice text banter today. She mentioned needing to schedule a Dr appt. I responded "for more birth control"...then joked she just wanted some more. She joked back, but didn't deny it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds good. :yay:

:cat::cat::cat::cat::cat::cat::cat::cat:


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## DailyGrind

Seriosly cool banter going on...loving it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf

Iwant2bhappy said:


> *He can't prove she cheated...*


I was under the impression that she admitted to an EA and that was why DG was so convinced that she was having an affair again. Maybe I'm mistaken.


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## Chaparral

Beowulf said:


> I was under the impression that she admitted to an EA and that was why DG was so convinced that she was having an affair again. Maybe I'm mistaken.


Its a long thread. I think she didn't believe she had an EA but later understood talking and scheduling gym the same gym times etc. was inapropriate. The OMW didn't think it was an affair and talked with OM about DG's and his wifes problems.

Certainly looked like it could have gone bad.


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## Chaparral

I didn't mean to step on anyones toes but namecalling and disrespect for the op's wife is over the line.


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## Chaparral

If DG's wife doesn't bring up separation, I think DG should continue to move forward and let it drop for now. He will regret it almost immediately unless he has already decided on divorce. He is rapidly painting himself in a corner.

Cancelling Disney where kids are invoved is exceedingly cruel. Canceling Disney would be punishing the kids in order to punish the wife. Just like leaving the restaurant before the meal was punishing four people because one child was acting up. I expect the wife was mortified, being and introvert and shy. 

It may be old fashioned but ultimately, the discipline buck stops with dad. Its a matter of justice. If one of my kids had acted like that, I would have taken them outside and had the talk. My kids never did anything like that because they weren't allowed to have tantrums or throw fits at any point in their childhood. While they were never taken to the woodshed they were always aware that it could happen. They also had things they had no desire to give up.

I personaly believe in spanking (not whipping). In my day I would volunteer for a spanking anytime over timout or the chair. I had way to much to do to be sitting in a chair watching a clock.


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## MEM2020

Chap,
He is "punishing" the kids by trying to create financial stability? You seem to be ignoring the "almost 50, very little retirement savings" situation. 

There is nothing wrong with telling the kids they need to save money. In fact this country is full of bankrupt families who seemed unable to grasp the concept of saving. 






chapparal said:


> If DG's wife doesn't bring up separation, I think DG should continue to move forward and let it drop for now. He will regret it almost immediately unless he has already decided on divorce. He is rapidly painting himself in a corner.
> 
> Cancelling Disney where kids are invoved is exceedingly cruel. Canceling Disney would be punishing the kids in order to punish the wife. Just like leaving the restaurant before the meal was punishing four people because one child was acting up. I expect the wife was mortified, being and introvert and shy.
> 
> It may be old fashioned but ultimately, the discipline buck stops with dad. Its a matter of justice. If one of my kids had acted like that, I would have taken them outside and had the talk. My kids never did anything like that because they weren't allowed to have tantrums or throw fits at any point in their childhood. While they were never taken to the woodshed they were always aware that it could happen. They also had things they had no desire to give up.
> 
> I personaly believe in spanking (not whipping). In my day I would volunteer for a spanking anytime over timout or the chair. I had way to much to do to be sitting in a chair watching a clock.


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## wholesale578

Any child or adult lucky enough to be the recipient of teddy bear gifts, knows just how special these iconic soft toys are. With their facial features as their key attraction, closely followed by the feel of their 'fur' or skin and then the stuffing, they are one of those favorites from which many can never be parted, no matter how worn and battered they become.

The year was 1907 and at that time, teddy bears had all but overtaken the world. In that year, the Steiff company (Margarete Steiff was the original creator of the bear in 1902), reported selling some 974,000 of them, most of which were shipped to the United States - the birthplace of the bear's name 'Teddy.'

By 1907, it became common to photograph a child with their favorite teddy. In the same year, songs called "The Teddy Bear's Picnic" and "Teddy Bear's Lullaby," were published showing just how popular these toy bears were in the adult market. For a toy to reach fad proportions, it's long been known it has to appeal to adults, but when adults want the item even more than the children, the fad moves on to become a craze. In the book Kids' Stuff by Gary Cross, he quotes advertisements of the time that were used to show just how gaga adults had become over the stuffed bear creature; "specialized bear "fashions" were sold separately in 1907. Even magazines like the Ladies Home Journal offered patterns for teddy bear clothes. These included pajamas, Rough Rider, fireman, sailor, and clown suits...teddy bears were all the rage in the cities...they had become a fashion accessory."


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## Chaparral

MEM11363 said:


> Chap,
> He is "punishing" the kids by trying to create financial stability? You seem to be ignoring the "almost 50, very little retirement savings" situation.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with telling the kids they need to save money. In fact this country is full of bankrupt families who seemed unable to grasp the concept of saving.


He looks like he has a very bright future with his career. I would go to Disney. Might very well be the last family trip. On the other hand the last trip they took could actually be the last family trip they ever took.


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## working_together

chapparal said:


> He looks like he has a very bright future with his career. I would go to Disney. Might very well be the last family trip. On the other hand the last trip they took could actually be the last family trip they ever took.


I agree, he can't take it off the table now. The kids have been talking about it, they kind of expect it. He should have not agreed to it in the beginning, but I think Daily wavers a lot, and sends mixed messages to his wife. He loves her dearly, but also has some trust issues. She then has her resentment issues. 

I just found it hard to believe she was so receptive to the shower, then sex, no, she wasn't all over him, but still, she didn't say no. Most people that haven't had sex in a very long time have difficulty with the whole getting back into the routine thing, she seemed to just jump right into it.

I'm not sure where this is going, hopefully the texts are a good sign....


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## UCanTalk

DG - im perplexed by this thread. Your marriage mirrors mine but its more extreme. For 25 years our frequency was around once every 2-3 weeks and a few dry periods of a much longer, once being 6 months. 

I could not understand why. I provided my wife with a great lifestyle, she was a SAHM, i was caring, sensitive and thoughtful. But i was sexually frustrated. I first posted here in 2009 about my issues.

I got increasingly insecure in my marriage, convinced she was having an affair. This was precipitated by her starting to shave down below, weight loss and wearing skimpy underwear. We were training up to loose weight for walking the Inca Trail, she had hit 40 and was feeling better about herself, these being the justifications for the changes. 

My insecurities did not abate, i realised these were MY issues so entered into IC. It took 2 years for me to seen how i had been highly codependent, passive aggressive, manipulate, narcissistic, suffering form dysthimia and emotionally absent for the entire marriage. My wife had built up huge resentments and the only thing she could control was the sex. She only survived in the marriage by leaning on her strong spiritual way of being.

She has now been in IC and we've had 18 months of MC. We had a setback a year ago when i embarked on an EA but confessed 2 weeks in. this has taken me the best part of the year to recover from. The last few months have seen a complete turn around in our marriage, both inside and outside the bedroom. 

*The only thing you can change is yourself*. I think your too focussed on trying to change your wife. I tried to do the same as i saw her as the root of the problem. The reality was she was my mirror for me to see the real source of the issue. 

Have you ever been in IC? I believe you need to divert your energy into your own growth. As you change, your wife will have no alternative but to change. How she changes no one can predict, but at least that way you will be less co-dependent and have more of an ability to act stand-alone.

I also found some books useful but they are like sticking plasters until you have done the hard grind of some deep introspection and getting a better sense of self.

Just my 2 cents (pence from where i come from)


----------



## dymo

chapparal said:


> If DG's wife doesn't bring up separation, I think DG should continue to move forward and let it drop for now. He will regret it almost immediately unless he has already decided on divorce. He is rapidly painting himself in a corner.


I have to agree and disagree.

If they do separate, that could erase the recent progress they've made. And you can no longer deny that there has been progress. Separations don't normally bring people closer, they drive them further apart.

On the other hand, the genie is already out of the bottle. DG has already broached the idea of separation. Ideally, it would have been best if DG had only brought up separation after exhausting other options, such as attempting to restart their sex life. Things were done in the wrong order. However, what's done is done, and it could become the elephant in the room if it isn't resolved. 

I think DG needs to approach this carefully, and put in a lot of thought. What I'd suggest is he starts off with discussion on their relationship. Try to gauge how she feels about the relationship right now. Then make it clear that his preference is that she stay, but if she feels she needs a separation, he will find a way to give her what she needs.

Quick question: If you take the Disney trip, how long will it be before the two of you can again afford a divorce?



working_together said:


> I think Daily wavers a lot, and sends mixed messages to his wife.


Agreed, but I think it's at least partially due to the schizophrenic advice he receives on these forums. I think nearly everyone posting in this thread has contributed something of value. But if he tries to implement all of it at once, then his behavior starts being pretty erratic.

Someone else summarized that there are two camps here.

I'm going to overgeneralize a bit. I'm sure this doesn't apply uniformally to everyone.

The first camp believes that she never loved him. From their perspective, the best course of action is to divorce, so he can find someone new. And if they are right that she never loved him, then there is no hope and this is the correct advice.

The second camp believes that she did love him, and there is hope that the marriage can be repaired. 

I believe that if DG is to have any chance of saving his marriage, he has to work as if camp 2 is correct. Simply because if camp 1 is right, then nothing he does will save the marriage anyway.

Even with camp 2's advice, he may still end up with a failed marriage, but camp 1's advice followed precisely would make it a certainty. Camp 1 pushed for divorce and separation. Camp 2 got DG laid.

This is not to say that he should ignore camp 1, as they do provide soberness and bring up some good questions that he needs to explore at some point. And of course at some point DG may decide he cannot bear his marriage any longer and want to start afresh. See if he can find happiness with somebody else. Weight should be given to camp 1 if only to prepare for that eventuality.


----------



## DailyGrind

Hey guys. I don't think I would take WD off the table completely. More likely, I'd postpone to the Fall, and see what happens in the meantime.

Wife texted me yesterday that she had finally made some Dr's appts. She had (years ago) had some sort of birth control implant done, that was good for 5 years. We realized (just before our sex on Wednesday) that the shelf-life was probably about up. One of the Dr's appointments she made was to replace this implant.

That being said...I made a move on her this morning....and she was adamantly NO!....then murmured "expired birth control." I tried to get a little physical, saying there were other things we could do....but she was having nothing of that. So...mixed signals. She is renewing the birth control.....but not interested (at least this morning) in sexual touching. Not sure what to make of that, yet.


----------



## golfergirl

DailyGrind said:


> Hey guys. I don't think I would take WD off the table completely. More likely, I'd postpone to the Fall, and see what happens in the meantime.
> 
> Wife texted me yesterday that she had finally made some Dr's appts. She had (years ago) had some sort of birth control implant done, that was good for 5 years. We realized (just before our sex on Wednesday) that the shelf-life was probably about up. One of the Dr's appointments she made was to replace this implant.
> 
> That being said...I made a move on her this morning....and she was adamantly NO!....then murmured "expired birth control." I tried to get a little physical, saying there were other things we could do....but she was having nothing of that. So...mixed signals. She is renewing the birth control.....but not interested (at least this morning) in sexual touching. Not sure what to make of that, yet.


Buy condoms and try again tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

golfergirl said:


> Buy condoms and try again tonight.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she wouldn't let me caress her....why would she let me do more, even with a condom? Worth a try, I guess....but we'll see.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> If she wouldn't let me caress her....why would she let me do more, even with a condom? Worth a try, I guess....but we'll see.


I'm going to think positive and say that she knows that more sex is in the immediate future and she want to make sure she won't get pregnant.


----------



## DailyGrind

golfergirl said:


> Buy condoms and try again tonight.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This was BRILLIANT!!!!

I told her after we (family) goes to the athletic club (workout and swimming), I wanted to stop at the drug store for protection. She laughed and said okay. We joked about it all afternoon. We just got home. When I got back into the car, after exiting the drug store....I told her I ALSO got some K-Y lotion for two ("you know...like in the commercials"). She just laughed and said cool. So...looks like Mission Control has given a green light for the next blast off! 

AND....she's been so much more fun to be around, this weekend. Seems genuine.

Thanks for this advice. Not sure why *I* didn't think of it.


----------



## bandit.45

> So...looks like Mission Control has given a green light for the next blast off!


"Mission Control, we are go for docking ..."


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> This was BRILLIANT!!!!
> 
> I told her after we (family) goes to the athletic club (workout and swimming), I wanted to stop at the drug store for protection. She laughed and said okay. We joked about it all afternoon. We just got home. When I got back into the car, after exiting the drug store....I told her I ALSO got some K-Y lotion for two ("you know...like in the commercials"). She just laughed and said cool. So...looks like Mission Control has given a green light for the next blast off!
> 
> AND....she's been so much more fun to be around, this weekend. Seems genuine.
> 
> Thanks for this advice. Not sure why *I* didn't think of it.


Its because your still jumpy. Stay cool and think instead of reacting. Good job though. Looked up your thread at the verizon store and thought oh sh!t. LOL

Good job on the condom suggestion Iwanttobehappy!

A word of advice. When you said she was on a long term birth control med, an alarm went off in my head. Someone, may have been a different section, had mega problems with a wife on a certain(I think it was long term)birth control where the med caused her to completely lose her sex drive for years. Check up on side effects of your wifes medication. Kind of funny its wearing off now and you had sex for the first time in two years.

Anyway it wouldn't hurt to look before she gets it renewed.


----------



## happyman64

DG,

I am living my life through you right now.

Stay calm, cool and collected. Do not wear out the missus to early.:rofl:

Keep putting a smile on both your faces.

High five to you my man!!!

Happy


----------



## Beowulf

chapparal said:


> Its because your still jumpy. Stay cool and think instead of reacting. Good job though. Looked up your thread at the verizon store and thought oh sh!t. LOL
> 
> Good job on the condom suggestion Iwanttobehappy!
> 
> A word of advice. When you said she was on a long term birth control med, an alarm went off in my head. Someone, may have been a different section, had mega problems with a wife on a certain(I think it was long term)birth control where the med caused her to completely lose her sex drive for years. Check up on side effects of your wifes medication. Kind of funny its wearing off now and you had sex for the first time in two years.
> 
> Anyway it wouldn't hurt to look before she gets it renewed.


That's a great point chap!


----------



## warlock07

Birth control and low sex drive seems to be a common problem. DG, do look into the that. Maybe you can discuss this with her when both of you are in a good mood.


----------



## working_together

DailyGrind said:


> This was BRILLIANT!!!!
> 
> I told her after we (family) goes to the athletic club (workout and swimming), I wanted to stop at the drug store for protection. She laughed and said okay. We joked about it all afternoon. We just got home. When I got back into the car, after exiting the drug store....I told her I ALSO got some K-Y lotion for two ("you know...like in the commercials"). She just laughed and said cool. So...looks like Mission Control has given a green light for the next blast off!
> 
> AND....she's been so much more fun to be around, this weekend. Seems genuine.
> 
> Thanks for this advice. Not sure why *I* didn't think of it.


Excellent.....


----------



## working_together

I just have to laugh, I feel like we're all sitting in DG's living room rooting him on.....

popcorn?


----------



## gpa

working_together said:


> popcorn?


Nope. 3D glasses better.:rofl:


----------



## Chaparral

working_together said:


> I just have to laugh, I feel like we're all sitting in DG's living room rooting him on.....
> 
> popcorn?


Its like two outs in the ninth inning, two strikes and the crowd gets unruly and DG hits a ....................home run. But they're not out of the woods yet and DG GETS UP TO BAT AGAIN and he ...........................wait, hes fading, going down. Foul ball, he gets another swing and he.......................................


----------



## cledus_snow

DG, you should patent the rights to your story. this is a chick-flick all the way.


----------



## DailyGrind

Annnnnndddd.....AGAIN this morning!!!!   

3 times in 5 days. That has NEVER happened before! 

@ Chap - Thanks for the thought about the b-control. She only used this particular one, over the past 5 years. Prior to that, she was on regular daily pills. But....the LD preceded this last method.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Annnnnndddd.....AGAIN this morning!!!!
> 
> 3 times in 5 days. That has NEVER happened before!
> 
> @ Chap - Thanks for the thought about the b-control. She only used this particular one, over the past 5 years. Prior to that, she was on regular daily pills. But....he LD preceded this last method.


OMGOMGOMGOMG someone get me a pitcher of water!!!!!!!


----------



## DailyGrind

For the record, though......that K-Y for two didn't seem to really do much. Good thing THAT wasn't the selling point.


----------



## warlock07

Was she more "active" this time?


----------



## DailyGrind

Not really.....but she never really was, on a regular basis, before. She WAS, however, a little more vocal about what she wanted. And we experimented with a couple positions (at her suggestion.) But.....I DID tell her, this morning, because she didn't sleep well....'Don't worry about it...I'll do all the work...you just enjoy.'


----------



## warlock07

Any difference in your physical interaction beyond the bedroom yet?(cuddling, more touching)

I think you need to give her the benefit of doubt for sometime. Start trusting her a little more


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> For the record, though......that K-Y for two didn't seem to really do much. Good thing THAT wasn't the selling point.


Couriosity can't hurt, the salesman closed the deal. Gives you the oppurtunity to do more res:smthumbup:earch.


----------



## Beowulf

All I can say is.....*AWESOME!*


----------



## golfergirl

DailyGrind said:


> This was BRILLIANT!!!!
> 
> I told her after we (family) goes to the athletic club (workout and swimming), I wanted to stop at the drug store for protection. She laughed and said okay. We joked about it all afternoon. We just got home. When I got back into the car, after exiting the drug store....I told her I ALSO got some K-Y lotion for two ("you know...like in the commercials"). She just laughed and said cool. So...looks like Mission Control has given a green light for the next blast off!
> 
> AND....she's been so much more fun to be around, this weekend. Seems genuine.
> 
> Thanks for this advice. Not sure why *I* didn't think of it.


Welcome - glad it worked!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

DailyGrind said:


> For the record, though......that K-Y for two didn't seem to really do much. Good thing THAT wasn't the selling point.


My wife and I tried this stuff once. Waste of money.

Congrats DG, you swank!


----------



## Almostrecovered

chapparal said:


> Couriosity can't hurt



It killed the cat!!!


----------



## Catherine602

:yay::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::yay:

No the cat in not dead, it's been cloned - had a mutation during the process though - ear wings. But it's all good. DG loves cat's or did he say he doesn't?? Whatever someone will like the cats. 

A celebratory present for you and Mrs. DG :catfly::catfly::catfly::catfly:


----------



## Trojan John

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Have you ever thought about having a vasectomy? If you don't plan to have any more kids, why not? That way your wife does not have to take BC and it won't affect her already LD. This was the best thing my husband could have done. And, it was painless (for me). :smthumbup: Actually, it was painless for him too, we were back in the swing of things in 3 days (though they recommend 1 week).
> 
> One other thing...make sure you keep making her feel good about herself, by telling her things like she is beautiful, I really have enjoyed being with you, etc. I am not one to take compliments well, but it honestly made me feel so good.
> 
> Keep up the good work.


Are vasectomys totallyw ith out risk, I thought I've heard of some horror stories.:scratchhead:


----------



## MEM2020

The statistics on BC are as follows:
- Condoms (lowest risk of creating a health issue)
- Sterilization (male or female) extremely low risk
- Various types of female BC when used over a lifetime (higher risk than sterilization. Not necessarily the risk in any given year, but the risk over many, many decades)




chapparal said:


> Are vasectomys totallyw ith out risk, I thought I've heard of some horror stories.:scratchhead:


----------



## TDSC60

chapparal said:


> Are vasectomys totallyw ith out risk, I thought I've heard of some horror stories.:scratchhead:


No invasive surgery is totally without risk. I too have heard horror stories - infection that required removal of some vital parts - scar tissue that became an issue years latter.

So many variables here - skill of the doctor - the individual patient - post op care provided.

Most men are over the procedure within a week. But a small percentage are permanently damaged.

I guess it comes down to "Do you feel lucky today?". Do you want to play the odds?


----------



## Humble Pie

Congrats DG, this was a major step for you. However, I doubt it was a major step for your wife. Your wife seems to have a care-free attitude, quite opposite of you ofcourse who processes and has to rationalize everything. You think to much, and comtemplate situations to exhust. This was a GOAL for you, but don't you think this could have happened more sooner, without anyone's advice? Two years of absence was, I am thinking, entirely due to your lack of charge, and poise. 

We are in Mid-March, nothing has changed with your continious posts about her taking on responsibility of your marriage, and I figure nothing will now that you are being stimulated properly (as you mention 3 times in 5 days)...


----------



## UCanTalk

DG

Whats changed in your marriage apart from your wife having now had sex with you after a long barren period? The reasons as to why she shut down initially have yet to be explored. Chances are things will drift back to where they were before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## working_together

Catherine602 said:


> :yay::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::yay:
> 
> No the cat in not dead, it's been cloned - had a mutation during the process though - ear wings. But it's all good. DG loves cat's or did he say he doesn't?? Whatever someone will like the cats.
> 
> A celebratory present for you and Mrs. DG :catfly::catfly::catfly::catfly:



I am the cat lover here


----------



## Beowulf

UCanTalk said:


> DG
> 
> Whats changed in your marriage apart from your wife having now had sex with you after a long barren period? The reasons as to why she shut down initially have yet to be explored. Chances are things will drift back to where they were before.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not if he doesn't let them. I think DG has seen the bleak side of this relationship. I don't think he'll allow it to go back there again. The positive is that the sex may allow them to grow closer and to eventually work out those other issues with just a little less stress.


----------



## DailyGrind

Well...all....I don't know WHAT has changed....but she is DEFINITELY different. Absolutely, she has re-engaged. We had a fantastic weekend together. We went for a walk in the local park, with the kids, yesterday. We walked a bit hand-in-hand, which was nice. She's now talking about stuff she wants to do in the yard, including a hot-tub. 

As to the comment about I could have done this sooner. I don't think so. I'm not saying we are out of the woods yet....but something clicked with her, that I don't think would have months ago. Maybe she has just been seeing my changes...and needed a bold move from me to bring it all together. I don't know. But, definitely, her mood has changed.

And YES....I've seen the down-side of the bad relationship. If we, indeed, have turned things around......I will work extra hard to not let us get to that point again. I KNOW...I have learned what I was doing wrong, and have already made my changes. The next few weeks will definitely be telling.


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> Not if he doesn't let them. I think DG has seen the bleak side of this relationship. I don't think he'll allow it to go back there again. The positive is that the sex may allow them to grow closer and to eventually work out those other issues with just a little less stress.


You have no idea how much LESS stress I have today, versus a week ago.  funny that!


----------



## warlock07

Disney trip?


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Disney trip?


Not discussed yet. I get my bonus on Wednesday. I'll sit down with her then, and see where she is on the "separation." It would surprise me GREATLY, at this point.....if she is still in that frame of mind. But, if she is.....well...we'll see.


----------



## bandit.45

DG,

Rent some Mickey Mouse and Minnie Mouse costumes for you and your wife and do some kinky Disney role-playing.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Just don't forget about us...it is just like a romance novel that you don't want to end.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Like I said...I'm not out of the woods yet. But, boy......if this has truly turned around...I'm in shock. It has been quite a roller coaster.....but I'm not sure I'm off the ride yet.

I texted my wife, this morning, that I got a little adventurish in the shower, shaving this morning.  That conversation quickly turned into making an appointment for both of us, for a consult for laser hair removal (her bikini area, and my back....maybe Mr. Happy, as well.) LOL. I can't believe our banter is back!!! I missed it.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> I love it. I am so happy for you. Sounds just like my husband and I. I can't express how much happier I am in life since I came to my senses. I hope your wife realizes that too. Just keep at it. No one said marriage was easy, you have to work hard at it.
> 
> P.S. I love when my husband and I send each other texts...keeps me thinking about him all day. To the point I can hardly wait to get home to see him...
> 
> One other thing...don't bring up the past, Disney World, the seperation, etc. to much, you just need to go with the flow and enjoy eachother.
> 
> Take Care DG...


Nope....no mention of the past. If the future is like this.....I'm fine with the past forgotten.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Not discussed yet. I get my bonus on Wednesday. I'll sit down with her then, and see where she is on the "separation." It would surprise me GREATLY, at this point.....if she is still in that frame of mind. But, if she is.....well...we'll see.


I'm not even sure I would mention the separation thing. I think it may be better to just keep things on a positive roll.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Well...all....I don't know WHAT has changed....but she is DEFINITELY different. Absolutely, she has re-engaged. We had a fantastic weekend together. We went for a walk in the local park, with the kids, yesterday. We walked a bit hand-in-hand, which was nice. She's now talking about stuff she wants to do in the yard, including a hot-tub.
> 
> As to the comment about I could have done this sooner. I don't think so. I'm not saying we are out of the woods yet....but something clicked with her, that I don't think would have months ago. Maybe she has just been seeing my changes...and needed a bold move from me to bring it all together. I don't know. But, definitely, her mood has changed.
> 
> And YES....I've seen the down-side of the bad relationship. If we, indeed, have turned things around......I will work extra hard to not let us get to that point again. I KNOW...I have learned what I was doing wrong, and have already made my changes. The next few weeks will definitely be telling.


I can't remember the context now, but somewhere along the way she said she did not think you really loved her. What clicked is through your actions you have convinced her you really do love her and she is responding in kind.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Not discussed yet. I get my bonus on Wednesday. I'll sit down with her then, and see where she is on the "separation." It would surprise me GREATLY, at this point.....if she is still in that frame of mind. But, if she is.....well...we'll see.


She is thinking of things to do in the yard, hot tub etc. She's planning a future with you and her kids. She's happy. How long has it been since you have seen that. If you bring up separation, you could easily destroy all the progress and more. As a matter of fact, if she gives you a ***** slap it would be less than you deserve. You continually figure out ways shoot your self in the foot. When you've got things going your way build on it and don't look back. If everything falls apart and you can't get your money back, take the kids and the cat to Disney. But at this point if things go bad, look in the mirror. What should happen now is figuring out just how romantic the two of you can make a trip to Barcelona. Woohoo! 

Don't just push and push to the limit. Relax, sit back, have some fun, pray but do not ROCK a boat that looks like its back on course. There is a reason doctors tell you not to exert yourself after the stitch up an open wound.

Be happy and pray. I am!


----------



## itgetsbetter

This thread is what sucked me into this site ha I'm so glad things are turning around for y'all  I agree...don't bring up the separation right now & totally go to Disney. Enjoy life! Especially now that there is so much to enjoy!

Best wishes!


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> She is thinking of things to do in the yard, hot tub etc. She's planning a future with you and her kids. She's happy. How long has it been since you have seen that. If you bring up separation, you could easily destroy all the progress and more. As a matter of fact, if she gives you a ***** slap it would be less than you deserve. You continually figure out ways shoot your self in the foot. When you've got things going your way build on it and don't look back. If everything falls apart and you can't get your money back, take the kids and the cat to Disney. But at this point if things go bad, look in the mirror. What should happen now is figuring out just how romantic the two of you can make a trip to Barcelona. Woohoo!
> 
> Don't just push and push to the limit. Relax, sit back, have some fun, pray but do not ROCK a boat that looks like its back on course. There is a reason doctors tell you not to exert yourself after the stitch up an open wound.
> 
> Be happy and pray. I am!


Good advice.  We were talking tonight about our annual beach trip...we have a camper we take to the beach just before school starts back up again, every year. For the last 2 years....we slept on opposite ends, sharing the kids. She was talking about possibly finding a sitter to take with us so the "adults could have some fun too."  It just gets better every day. Dang if I understand it.....but DAMN if I'm not liking the difference.


----------



## DailyGrind

itgetsbetter said:


> This thread is what sucked me into this site ha I'm so glad things are turning around for y'all  I agree...don't bring up the separation right now & totally go to Disney. Enjoy life! Especially now that there is so much to enjoy!
> 
> Best wishes!


Thanks!


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> I'm not even sure I would mention the separation thing. I think it may be better to just keep things on a positive roll.


Agreed!


----------



## MEM2020

I totally agree. ALL conversations at this point should be positive, constructive and forward looking. 

For instance DG has a great opportunity here to do something that will continue to build on his momentum. It is not the "low risk" nice guy approach. It is not the "hard ass alpha" approach. It is a good middle ground. 

He should have a constructive, positive conversation with his W about DW. If it were me I would tell her I was committed to going, actually very much looking forward to it, but would be way more comfortable if it could happen in the Fall with a larger savings account under foot and a bit more time for his new career trajectory to be proving itself out. I think she is going to be disappointed/maybe even angry. And that is ok if he handles it well. If it were me I would say I am willing to make a firm commit to the fall, we can pick a week and make our flight reservations, and hotel reservations. AND we can explain to the kids that the last few years have been hard on everybody with the economy, and they should feel very lucky their parents do well enough to take them. It is a good teaching moment for the kids - the reality of finances and deferred gratification. 

And it is an opportunity for her to show that she can compromise on something important and not hammer the whole marriage when that occurs. 

All that said, if she can explain why it is critical they go sooner he can/should listen. If she handles this conversation like a grown up, than he should keep an open mind. But he/she need to be able to have conversations about stuff that matters without her withdrawing/becoming passive aggressive. 

I am still a little bit worried that her latest "happiness" ties more to that trip than is healthy. But maybe I am wrong. I have to admit her behavior seems to have improved in a way I never would have predicted even 2 weeks ago. 




chapparal said:


> She is thinking of things to do in the yard, hot tub etc. She's planning a future with you and her kids. She's happy. How long has it been since you have seen that. If you bring up separation, you could easily destroy all the progress and more. As a matter of fact, if she gives you a ***** slap it would be less than you deserve. You continually figure out ways shoot your self in the foot. When you've got things going your way build on it and don't look back. If everything falls apart and you can't get your money back, take the kids and the cat to Disney. But at this point if things go bad, look in the mirror. What should happen now is figuring out just how romantic the two of you can make a trip to Barcelona. Woohoo!
> 
> Don't just push and push to the limit. Relax, sit back, have some fun, pray but do not ROCK a boat that looks like its back on course. There is a reason doctors tell you not to exert yourself after the stitch up an open wound.
> 
> Be happy and pray. I am!


----------



## Beowulf

I hate to say this but listen to chap. :smthumbup:


I started off thinking that this ship had sailed. But chap's persistence eventually gave me pause to think. I started to think maybe he was on to something so I began to see things differently although I still had doubts right up until that fateful evening. But damned if chap wasn't right on the money!

Keep things going bud. She's beginning to realize you really love her and that allowed her to see your changes and know you did it for keeps and for her. I think chap's right. That is what clicked.

Edit: I actually got misty eyed writing this.


----------



## Catherine602

DG This is fantastic. 

I just have one more observation and a concern. She seems to respond to dominance and mastery (as in you are a man with a plan) could this be the key?

I like what MEM said. When you are ready, do you think that you should have a defining conversation to make sure that you are both thinking in the same direction vis a vis, recommitment to the marriage?

I am not as optimistic a person as Chap, with I were.


----------



## Beowulf

I was thinking this morning (not always wise I grant you). Is it possible that she noticed the changes but was not sure whether you made them for her or in order to leave her? What I mean is that maybe when this all started you disengaged from her. Maybe you thought she was cheating (again?). Maybe you weren't sure you wanted to stay married. Maybe you didn't trust her? Sort of like a 180. Then you started analyzing what she wanted all the while really not dealing with what you wanted. So she couldn't commit back to the marriage until you gave her a sign that you had recommitted back to the marriage. When you took charge the other night maybe it signaled to her that you weren't going to leave her and that is when she felt she could reinvest emotionally.

I also think Catherine is right. You said she was somewhat shy and laid back. Maybe like my wife she is submissive at heart. Not in a BDSM kind of way but she was looking for leadership. Think about it. You asked her to go to MC and she did. You mentioned separation and she said okay(?). Maybe she was doing what she thought you wanted all along. Now you are leading in a positive manner and she is following...AND HAPPY.

I also recall you saying that you are a bit older than her. You seem to take that as a potential negative. If I am right about her then she likes the fact that you are older and wiser. She feels she can trust your decision making because you have experience on your side. That doesn't mean she won't argue with you. I haven't met a wife that didn't argue sometimes. That also doesn't mean she doesn't have opinions or ideas that she wants you to hear and consider. But she may feel that as a strong wise man you can lead better. Just another thought.

Just my $.02 for the day I guess.


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## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> I was thinking this morning (not always wise I grant you). Is it possible that she noticed the changes but was not sure whether you made them for her or in order to leave her? What I mean is that maybe when this all started you disengaged from her. Maybe you thought she was cheating (again?). Maybe you weren't sure you wanted to stay married. Maybe you didn't trust her? Sort of like a 180. Then you started analyzing what she wanted all the while really not dealing with what you wanted. So she couldn't commit back to the marriage until you gave her a sign that you had recommitted back to the marriage. When you took charge the other night maybe it signaled to her that you weren't going to leave her and that is when she felt she could reinvest emotionally.
> 
> I also think Catherine is right. You said she was somewhat shy and laid back. Maybe like my wife she is submissive at heart. Not in a BDSM kind of way but she was looking for leadership. Think about it. You asked her to go to MC and she did. You mentioned separation and she said okay(?). Maybe she was doing what she thought you wanted all along. Now you are leading in a positive manner and she is following...AND HAPPY.
> 
> I also recall you saying that you are a bit older than her. You seem to take that as a potential negative. If I am right about her then she likes the fact that you are older and wiser. She feels she can trust your decision making because you have experience on your side. That doesn't mean she won't argue with you. I haven't met a wife that didn't argue sometimes. That also doesn't mean she doesn't have opinions or ideas that she wants you to hear and consider. But she may feel that as a strong wise man you can lead better. Just another thought.
> 
> Just my $.02 for the day I guess.


This looks like a possible good assessment to me.

That being said, she kind of forced my hand this morning. She sent me an email about needing to schedule her vacation time..especially the week of our beach trip, as people were already filling up the slots at work. Then, at the end of her email she said "_Also, we need to determine if we will go to Disney._"

So, I replied about going ahead and schedule whichever week worked for her, in August, for the beach trip. And then, after telling her about my bonus (almost, but not quite as much as I was planning):

We can still afford a trip. I’ll work with the numbers to see if we do an All-Out (staying IN the resort), or stay in a hotel outside the resort. Now that I know the numbers, I can start planning in earnest. As to WHETHER we go…..I guess I have to say that YOU have a lot to say in that. Things seem worlds better between us, suddenly. I’m loving it. But, if you are still thinking you might want a separation….we can’t afford both. I CAN tell you…..the me that you are seeing lately, is here to stay. I so much want us to work. As I said the other day, a stable US will do the girls so much better than a one week trip to Disney. Push, come shove….Disney could still be done on a cheaper basis (drive down, stay in motel, 3-4 days versus full week.) We can have SO much better, ahead of us!!


I had taken DD1/DD2 to the dentist, this morning. The email I sent her (right before the one above) about that excursion got an immediate response. The one above....radio silence, so far. 

Cat's out of the bag, now though. I know this wasn't the most positive mindset (as was recommended by a few of you, over the last couple days.) I DID try to give it a positive slant. I honestly don't think she has been faking the better mood, this past week. We seemed to genuinely be enjoying each other's company. So...we'll see what her response is.


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## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> This looks like a possible good assessment to me.
> 
> That being said, she kind of forced my hand this morning. She sent me an email about needing to schedule her vacation time..especially the week of our beach trip, as people were already filling up the slots at work. Then, at the end of her email she said "_Also, we need to determine if we will go to Disney._"
> 
> So, I replied about going ahead and schedule whichever week worked for her, in August, for the beach trip. And then, after telling her about my bonus (almost, but not quite as much as I was planning):
> 
> We can still afford a trip. I’ll work with the numbers to see if we do an All-Out (staying IN the resort), or stay in a hotel outside the resort. Now that I know the numbers, I can start planning in earnest. As to WHETHER we go…..I guess I have to say that YOU have a lot to say in that. Things seem worlds better between us, suddenly. I’m loving it. But, if you are still thinking you might want a separation….we can’t afford both. I CAN tell you…..the me that you are seeing lately, is here to stay. I so much want us to work. As I said the other day, a stable US will do the girls so much better than a one week trip to Disney. Push, come shove….Disney could still be done on a cheaper basis (drive down, stay in motel, 3-4 days versus full week.) We can have SO much better, ahead of us!!
> 
> 
> I had taken DD1/DD2 to the dentist, this morning. The email I sent her (right before the one above) about that excursion got an immediate response. The one above....radio silence, so far.
> 
> Cat's out of the bag, now though. I know this wasn't the most positive mindset (as was recommended by a few of you, over the last couple days.) I DID try to give it a positive slant. I honestly don't think she has been faking the better mood, this past week. We seemed to genuinely be enjoying each other's company. So...we'll see what her response is.


Why did you need to discuss this via email? While it is to late to do anything about it now, this is a loaded issue that makes email a poor choice to address it. Better to just say let's talk tonight about how we do that.

Also, why the rush to go? Earlier you stated you want to wait until the fall. There were plenty of non-relationship reasons for doing that. So why rush to get it planned again?


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## DailyGrind

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why did you need to discuss this via email? While it is to late to do anything about it now, this is a loaded issue that makes email a poor choice to address it. Better to just say let's talk tonight about how we do that.
> 
> Also, why the rush to go? Earlier you stated you want to wait until the fall. There were plenty of non-relationship reasons for doing that. So why rush to get it planned again?


I guess because her overwhelming LL is quality time. So...quality time I want to give her...and she apparently needs to plan it...so.....

I made no commitment to the timing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

:scratchhead:

DG,

Not in email my man. Since you had to bring the "separation" up you should have done it when you were both together.

Come on. You know better than this.

If I was you I would go home, get the kids out of the way and re-affirm the "I love you" part and not the "lovin it" part.

All you told her is that you are digging the sex. It is good that you made it clear that the DG she is seeing is here to stay.

So now go home and be DG version 2.0 and talk with the look of love in your eyes and tell her what you feel about your marriage right to her face and hopefully you will get a good response back from her instead of, wait listen for it.... "crickets".......

Keep moving forward DG. That is what works for you two.


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## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> I guess because her overwhelming LL is quality time. So...quality time I want to give her...and she apparently needs to plan it...so.....
> 
> I made no commitment to the timing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think that is damgerous word-parsing. Yes, you did not commit to a date, but you did not tell her know to her date either. Knowing she wants it this spring, you briefly mention postponing then state "Push come to shove". To me, this says I guess we could do it in the spring.

You need to be prepared that this is her interpretation and how you want to address it, while still being upbeat.

By the way, she did not force your hand. This was an easy dicussion to wait for tonight. For whatever reason, you jumped to respond and imply that a spring trip was still possible. You can have quality time with her without going to DW, so consider why you really felt the need to reply as you did.


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## Chaparral

Poor DG. His texter/mouth has a brain of its own and it don't like him.


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## DailyGrind

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think that is damgerous word-parsing. Yes, you did not commit to a date, but you did not tell her know to her date either. Knowing she wants it this spring, you briefly mention postponing then state "Push come to shove". To me, this says I guess we could do it in the spring.
> 
> You need to be prepared that this is her interpretation and how you want to address it, while still being upbeat.
> 
> By the way, she did not force your hand. This was an easy dicussion to wait for tonight. For whatever reason, you jumped to respond and imply that a spring trip was still possible. You can have quality time with her without going to DW, so consider why you really felt the need to reply as you did.


Okay. So the consensus is it was a bad reply. She never responded. Can't talk to her tonight...pool league night. Tomorrow is Survivor night. I suppose we will talk then. I will be calling home soon. Always do, to talk to her and kids. Hmmmm. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Okay. So the consensus is it was a bad reply. She never responded. Can't talk to her tonight...pool league night. Tomorrow is Survivor night. I suppose we will talk then. I will be calling home soon. Always do, to talk to her and kids. Hmmmm.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, email was a bad choice. Discussions like this should be done face to face. She can't see the twinkle in your eyes in an email. She can't see the slight curl of your lip as you give her a half smile. She can't hear the inflection in your voice that reassures her that regardless of what words you speak...you truly love her.

If I were you I would skip whatever you had planned and go talk to her before she begins to question everything that has happened the last week or so. What's more important? Pool or your marriage?


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## dymo

Beowulf said:


> If I were you I would skip whatever you had planned and go talk to her before she begins to question everything that has happened the last week or so. What's more important? Pool or your marriage?


Agreed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

I read or heard last summer that 80% of communication between two people having a conversation was visual. No important communication should be made anyway but face to face. Can not believe you brought up separation at all, much less in a text/email. How cold is that? If I were her I would be packing.


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## Catherine602

The more I read the clearer the picture becomes. DG you said she has a hard time being expressive with you. However, she was quite talkative with OM. Reading your post gives me the impression that your communication style may confuse her, you seem to avoid talking about important things face to face and your timing is terrible. Somehow the differences in your communication styles may have shut her down. 

My sense is that it may be your stubbornness that is expressed by agreeing but not acting. You don't have to do everything she or anyone wants but you have to be clear about what you will do and not do. Also she seems sensitive to any negative communication. From your post you are affible and self assured. There was not one time in this entire saga of a tgread did you react defensively to even the most negative post,. So you are not sensitive to verbal barrage and she is. 

DG I really think the biggest problem with your wife is communication and differences in style. As a woman I would say that you don't seem to listen but you say you do. That is frustrating. Look at that and if it rings true, see if you can improve. I don't think you can do that alone. A good workbook for you both may help. Ask her if that has been a problem in the past. And tell her that you are not purposely doing whatever bothers her and that you want to work on it with her.

I got the relationship a little wrong because I did not have an idea of your communication when things were going well. Now I can see that you are both at cross purposes in communication. Think about how this OM was that drew her out and try to incoporate some of the elements to your communication style. 

Another thing about the timming of the disconnect. Did you start having financial problems around that time? My impression is that she is not a gold digger but she is submissive and needs to feel that you are master of your universe. The financial problems may have shaken her sense of security. 

The sudden lack of sex after marriage may not be as sinester as it seems. She may not have wanted to spend the honeymoon on your boat but you may not have heard her. That and you may have lost some of your confidence when she started to turn you down. to her.

Think about it. I would say avoid ascibing.negative interpretations to her actions. I really think if she wanted to leave she would be gone. I think she is waiting for you to be the man she fell in love with. Also, it would be good if she read about men and the way men connect emotionally with the woman they love. Also she should know the devastation that he feels when his lover withdraws. 

That's all I can think of. Use only what sounds good for you. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar

I think it boils down to both of you have trouble communicating. I don't think daily should have sent that in email, but is his wife that fragile? Come on! Also Chap said his wife didn't think he loved her. She's the one saying his "I love you" texts were over the top. So his wife does know he loves her. 

I'm a bit confused by the whole thing. One day they are talking of separation. The next they are having loads of sex and bantering. After 2 years of no sex? None of this makes sense to me! 

I think at this point he might want to say maybe the email wasn't the best way to communicate, but he really wanted to make sure she is on the same page as him that things are progressing. Now if she shuts down over this, I frankly think she's just too much work. Why men put up with so much bs from some women, I don't know. We aren't fragile. We don't have to be put on pedestals and babied. Personally, I think daily has spent so much time putting this woman on a pedestal and trying to second guess what she thinks or feels. She's an HR professional. Can't she communicate at home like I'm sure she has to communicate at work?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

Juts wanted to say DG that I am not not not blaming everything on you she has got work to do so please don't forget that in your zeal to move on. 

I just wanted to tell you what I see, it may or may not be valid


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## Humble Pie

I agree that the e-mail was a poor choice, both timing and route of delivery could have been better. 

DG, just when you begin to get physically intimate with your wife again, you should also seek to be intimate with her in conversation. E-mailing her is not being intimate, it is more business like... talk more with her, express yourself more clearly in a verbal manner face to face (best times are when the kids are down), get more intimate on that level.

You are very excited about this "spark" in your sex life with your wife- don't allow that to slip away by resorting to your old routines of communication.


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## dymo

tennisstar said:


> I think it boils down to both of you have trouble communicating. I don't think daily should have sent that in email, but is his wife that fragile? Come on! Also Chap said his wife didn't think he loved her. She's the one saying his "I love you" texts were over the top. So his wife does know he loves her.
> 
> I'm a bit confused by the whole thing. One day they are talking of separation. The next they are having loads of sex and bantering. After 2 years of no sex? None of this makes sense to me!
> 
> I think at this point he might want to say maybe the email wasn't the best way to communicate, but he really wanted to make sure she is on the same page as him that things are progressing. Now if she shuts down over this, I frankly think she's just too much work. Why men put up with so much bs from some women, I don't know. We aren't fragile. We don't have to be put on pedestals and babied. Personally, I think daily has spent so much time putting this woman on a pedestal and trying to second guess what she thinks or feels. She's an HR professional. Can't she communicate at home like I'm sure she has to communicate at work?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think part of the reason she might have felt it over the top might be she didn't quite believe it. 

She may be fragile, or she may not be. The issue is that the relationship is fragile.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar

dymo said:


> I think part of the reason she might have felt it over the top might be she didn't quite believe it.
> 
> She may be fragile, or she may not be. The issue is that the relationship is fragile.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He was doing all kinds of things for her and asking her to go to MC. He was taking her on dates. How could she have not known he loved her? In MC, she talked about resentments, not if he loved her or not. I think she knows he loves her. All she would say in MC is she cared for him and didn't want to break the family up.

So yes his communication style is bad. So is my husband's. When we argue, he just won't say anything. But I realize that's the way he is. And I realize it doesn't mean anything. I know he loves me. She's a grown woman. I think some suggestions are babying her, and I just don't agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

tennisstar said:


> He was doing all kinds of things for her and asking her to go to MC. He was taking her on dates. How could she have not known he loved her? In MC, she talked about resentments, not if he loved her or not. I think she knows he loves her. All she would say in MC is she cared for him and didn't want to break the family up.
> 
> So yes his communication style is bad. So is my husband's. When we argue, he just won't say anything. But I realize that's the way he is. And I realize it doesn't mean anything. I know he loves me. She's a grown woman. I think some suggestions are babying her, and I just don't agree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think she said that quite a while back. She just hasn't been buying the new DG.


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## dymo

tennisstar said:


> He was doing all kinds of things for her and asking her to go to MC. He was taking her on dates. How could she have not known he loved her? In MC, she talked about resentments, not if he loved her or not. I think she knows he loves her. All she would say in MC is she cared for him and didn't want to break the family up.


These negative feelings of hers were built up for years. DG has worked hard, but most of it's been in the last 6 or so months. It looks like in the end, DG did get through. Just hope it lasts. The marriage is at such a critical stage right now. (See you're online, DG. Update?)




tennisstar said:


> So yes his communication style is bad. So is my husband's. When we argue, he just won't say anything. But I realize that's the way he is. And I realize it doesn't mean anything. I know he loves me. She's a grown woman. I think some suggestions are babying her, and I just don't agree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Interesting. Your husband's communication style doesn't sound much like DG's at all. It sounds a lot more like his wife's. Maybe it might be helpful to think of it from that perspective. Because that could be a big issue moving forward. How do you handle conflict with with him when he doesn't even properly tell you why he's mad? Is your husband the type to hold grudges?

Frankly, the reality is that DG's communication style is a big part of what got him into this mess. Whether you like it or not, the reality is that this is something he needs to be more conscious of.


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## tennisstar

Chap, no, my husband doesn't hold grudges. He is very good at just getting past things. We don't have too much conflict either. If he's upset, I usually can figure out why. And we both are just too busy to stay mad!

I think daisy's communication style got him into this mess, but I don't think that his communication style is the reason why he's having marriage problems. His wife certainly holds grudges and won't communicate. He's good at getting over stuff. She isn't. Daily has been trying to put the marriage back together. Maybe he hasnt done everything right, but she doesn't even try. Yes she responded when he initiated intimacy, but she didn't try to do anything on her own. She didn't show up for MC on time. She didn't speak up in MC. Instead of staying up to discuss issues, she went to bed. So how did daily cause all their problems?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar

Sorry, my reply was to dyno not chap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar

chapparal said:


> I think she said that quite a while back. She just hasn't been buying the new DG.


I believe it was just a month or so ago she said that. Not that long ago. Remember how he kept making her breakfast and she asked how long he planned on doing that in a mean way? Remember how she said she was trying to be nice to him (apparently that was a huge effort for her)?

I just think you're excusing her when she has caused problems too. Why should her behavior be excused?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lovebug501

tennisstar said:


> *Now if she shuts down over this, I frankly think she's just too much work. *Why men put up with so much bs from some women, I don't know. We aren't fragile. We don't have to be put on pedestals and babied. Personally, I think daily has spent so much time putting this woman on a pedestal and trying to second guess what she thinks or feels. She's an HR professional. *Can't she communicate at home like I'm sure she has to communicate at work?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Marriage is work. Relating to someone who is completely different than you is work. Nothing that is worth it comes easily... He's willing to put in the work because he loves her. I'm pretty sure that everything isn't rainbows and puppies in her world either. But we don't see what she has going on because DG isn't her 'safe place'... she doesn't feel she can confide in him, for whatever reason.

I have that at home... My H gets pissed if I don't tell him something that bothers me, but if I tell him, he gets defensive and condescending and turns it into how its all my fault. All in the guise of "listening" and an "open mind". And 9 times out of 10, he's going to throw it back in my face later. So why would I tell him? It's better if I can deal with it on my own. She may be feeling that way. Of course, if you ask my H (and I'm sure DG will say this too)... he's very open and just wants to help and wants to know what's going on and if I would just open up and tell him things, all would be right with the world... but when I do, its just a bunch of petty grievances that I should just get over.


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## working_together

Someone got their bonus today......

Yeah, I find DG's life very confusing at times. I would be interested in knowing how the next MC appointment goes. I hope they both can let each other know they are enjoying the changes. Maybe she can tell him she loves him....I can't wrap my head around that...


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## Tall Average Guy

DailyGrind said:


> Okay. So the consensus is it was a bad reply. She never responded. Can't talk to her tonight...pool league night. Tomorrow is Survivor night. I suppose we will talk then. I will be calling home soon. Always do, to talk to her and kids. Hmmmm.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So while I am not trying to be a downer, I do think you still need to think about why you were unable to be firm about your opinions on the DW trip. Earlier, you were clear that it would be delayed until the fall, but after some good sex, you suddenly were afraid of disappointing her. I think you need to be firm in your opinion and for a couple of reasons:

1. If she needs you to be the leader, your waffling is only a bad thing. You need to lead, and that means changing your mind only on facts, not on your whims and emotions and whether you got laid.
2. While I don't think she is using you for a trip, I think it is still too early to completely rule it out. Standing firm with going to DW in the fall helps you ensure that she is working toward having a good marriage with you.


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## tennisstar

Marriage is work. I agree. And I think most folks are ok with work. But I won't deal with someone throwing things in my face and bringing them up later. Guess I was divorced for too long and became too independent. Also my son is grown so I don't have young kids to think about. 

And yes, she might feel totally opposite of daily. I'm only going on what he says.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

Okay....whew...I see I have a lot of posts to respond to.  Thanks for all the input, guys.

Okay....here is how last night went down. I wound up NOT running home. I thought hard about that, but in the end I did not want to set a precident that every time she goes silent on me...I would run scurrying home, looking needy. I've been making the effort to SHOW strength, confidence and direction; while also being as compassionate, loving and devoted as I can be. Hope that makes sense. I did make my normal call home, as I walked to the league location. She seemed fine on the phone, and I elaborated some on my email. She never dispelled the "separation" issue....nor did we make any decisions on DW. To be clear, I'm not sure I ever did definitively say I was set on it only being in the Fall. But, as of right now...there is no clear call on this either way. We left the phone call, last night, with ....we would discuss it tonight. However, one thing she DID say that stuck with me.....some point during the conversation she said something like "I'm trying." I responded that I knew that...I could see it. She then brought up that I "didn't seem to think so, during our last MC session." I apologized that maybe I was just pushing things, and I was confused.

After that call, I really started thinking about that exchange. It DID seem to bother her that I didn't acknowledge her efforts (if you recall, I said something along the lines that her contribution is ALLOWING me to spend more time with her; and NOT being mean anymore.) So....I initiated the following text exchange:

M: I've been thinking about our conversation...yeah...I probably think too much....but....just so you know: I know I've made mistakes. I know I could do better...and am trying. I always have been, and still am, crazy about you. Any day without you....is a BAD Day!

W: I know, we both could do better. It takes time though and I need to get out of this funk. Had to make sure that was spelled right. Good thing it appears auto correct doesn't change to swear words.

M: Funk?

W: U know, a funk, like in a fog or just kinda in a bad place at the moment.

M: Clearly.....you just need more sex. Intrnational cure for "funk." 

W: Really? That's interesting since a secound ago u weren't sure what it meant.

M: Google is a fantastic tool. lol

W: It doesn't say that does it?

M: Yes. Fun cure is sex, and LOTS of loving. Sorry....only cure. You can ask your doctor in two weeks.

Anyway...we then proceeded to banter for the next two hours. Things seem still progressing. Told her I had plans for her on Wednesday (today)....Survivor night. Not sure what the "funk" thing is though....especially when described as "FOG"....big trigger word around these parts. LOL.

Sorry took me so long to post this....I was trying to figure out how to capture my text log, without having to retype. Couldn't figure it out.


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## tennisstar

Funk usually means somewhat depressed, just not knowing what to do and how to feel better about things. Things are just blah. Can't quite figure out why or what to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

tennisstar said:


> I believe it was just a month or so ago she said that. Not that long ago. Remember how he kept making her breakfast and she asked how long he planned on doing that in a mean way? Remember how she said she was trying to be nice to him (apparently that was a huge effort for her)?
> 
> I just think you're excusing her when she has caused problems too. Why should her behavior be excused?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was only talking about the quote where she said she didn't believe he loved her.


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## MEM2020

DG,
You are doing well. I realize it is difficult to process and then select among the conflicting advice. That said I want to focus on some stuff your W has conveyed. She very much likes the strong, confident you. Accepting the truth of that, and it is a very common theme with humans, perhaps even more so with women:
- Force yourself to stop bringing up anything she has said about separation. 
- Start planning non-expensive but fun events with her. Bring your A-game to those events. That means you have a plan A, AND a plan B if something goes awry with plan A. 
- Remind yourself that the cure for HER is to feel loved. That is different than the cure for you which is to have sex which equals love for you. A man having sex with her does not necessarily equate to love. So if she gets back in a funk - project love at her - not lust. And make it all about her. 

The next DW in the fall convo cannot reference her talk of separation. It is about being financially disciplined and setting a good example for the kids about delayed gratification. 

Asking her if she still wants to separate is one more version of "do you love me". 





DailyGrind said:


> Okay....whew...I see I have a lot of posts to respond to.  Thanks for all the input, guys.
> 
> Okay....here is how last night went down. I wound up NOT running home. I thought hard about that, but in the end I did not want to set a precident that every time she goes silent on me...I would run scurrying home, looking needy. I've been making the effort to SHOW strength, confidence and direction; while also being as compassionate, loving and devoted as I can be. Hope that makes sense. I did make my normal call home, as I walked to the league location. She seemed fine on the phone, and I elaborated some on my email. She never dispelled the "separation" issue....nor did we make any decisions on DW. To be clear, I'm not sure I ever did definitively say I was set on it only being in the Fall. But, as of right now...there is no clear call on this either way. We left the phone call, last night, with ....we would discuss it tonight. However, one thing she DID say that stuck with me.....some point during the conversation she said something like "I'm trying." I responded that I knew that...I could see it. She then brought up that I "didn't seem to think so, during our last MC session." I apologized that maybe I was just pushing things, and I was confused.
> 
> After that call, I really started thinking about that exchange. It DID seem to bother her that I didn't acknowledge her efforts (if you recall, I said something along the lines that her contribution is ALLOWING me to spend more time with her; and NOT being mean anymore.) So....I initiated the following text exchange:
> 
> M: I've been thinking about our conversation...yeah...I probably think too much....but....just so you know: I know I've made mistakes. I know I could do better...and am trying. I always have been, and still am, crazy about you. Any day without you....is a BAD Day!
> 
> W: I know, we both could do better. It takes time though and I need to get out of this funk. Had to make sure that was spelled right. Good thing it appears auto correct doesn't change to swear words.
> 
> M: Funk?
> 
> W: U know, a funk, like in a fog or just kinda in a bad place at the moment.
> 
> M: Clearly.....you just need more sex. Intrnational cure for "funk."
> 
> W: Really? That's interesting since a secound ago u weren't sure what it meant.
> 
> M: Google is a fantastic tool. lol
> 
> W: It doesn't say that does it?
> 
> M: Yes. Fun cure is sex, and LOTS of loving. Sorry....only cure. You can ask your doctor in two weeks.
> 
> Anyway...we then proceeded to banter for the next two hours. Things seem still progressing. Told her I had plans for her on Wednesday (today)....Survivor night. Not sure what the "funk" thing is though....especially when described as "FOG"....big trigger word around these parts. LOL.
> 
> Sorry took me so long to post this....I was trying to figure out how to capture my text log, without having to retype. Couldn't figure it out.


----------



## Beowulf

MEM11363 said:


> DG,
> You are doing well. I realize it is difficult to process and then select among the conflicting advice. That said I want to focus on some stuff your W has conveyed. She very much likes the strong, confident you. Accepting the truth of that, and it is a very common theme with humans, perhaps even more so with women:
> - Force yourself to stop bringing up anything she has said about separation.
> - Start planning non-expensive but fun events with her. Bring your A-game to those events. That means you have a plan A, AND a plan B if something goes awry with plan A.
> - Remind yourself that the cure for HER is to feel loved. That is different than the cure for you which is to have sex which equals love for you. A man having sex with her does not necessarily equate to love. So if she gets back in a funk - project love at her - not lust. And make it all about her.
> 
> The next DW in the fall convo cannot reference her talk of separation. It is about being financially disciplined and setting a good example for the kids about delayed gratification.
> 
> Asking her if she still wants to separate is one more version of "do you love me".


Agree with this. I don't think she ever wanted a separation. I think she was giving you what she thought you wanted. If you want a separation keep mentioning it and you'll get it. Otherwise drop the whole idea and focus on rebuilding your marriage. You can't think both ways.


----------



## DailyGrind

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Hey DG,
> 
> How did last night go?


Pretty good. I picked up kids, took them to dinner and oldest to girl scouts. Got home, put kids to bed and watched Survivor with W. Then, we did he deed again. Could tell she was willing, but not necessarily "in the mood.". Overall, things seem progressing nicely. Hopeful! I'm still working the budget for DW. Thinking now to take the camper and stay in their campground. 16-18 hr drive both ways...but saves about $1,200. Not crazy about the long drive, but it DOES save money!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

I said I wouldn't chime in again but you know me! I agree with Beowulf: shut the F up about the separation. You have a good thing going so don't ambush your progress.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

bandit.45 said:


> I said I wouldn't chime in again but you know me! I agree with Beowulf: shut the F up about the separation. You have a good thing going so don't ambush your progress.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL DG's studying right now about how to put his foot in his mouth...................again. I think its great she didn't make a big deal out of the separation remark.

Good luck DG


----------



## Beowulf

Geesh DG,

When I said to lead like a captain I meant Captain Picard, Captain Kirk or Captain America....not Captain Crunch.


LOL Just teasing you.


----------



## gpa

DailyGrind said:


> I'm still working the budget for DW. Thinking now to take the camper and stay in their campground. 16-18 hr drive both ways...but saves about $1,200. Not crazy about the long drive, but it DOES save money!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok y can see it the other way. For the same trip i need 15000euros
I think my daughter has to wait for a lot of years
And more over we r still in a devastated financially country:scratchhead:


----------



## Lovebug501

I get this vision of a microphone and camera being shoved in DG's face with a reporter asking.. "So DG, you just got laid, what are you going to do now?" and DG responds "I'm going to Disney World!!".


----------



## DailyGrind

Lovebug501 said:


> I get this vision of a microphone and camera being shoved in DG's face with a reporter asking.. "So DG, you just got laid, what are you going to do now?" and DG responds "I'm going to Disney World!!".


Well...for ME...it was pretty much as big a triumph as winning the Super Bowl!


----------



## DailyGrind

gpa said:


> Ok y can see it the other way. For the same trip i need 15000euros
> I think my daughter has to wait for a lot of years
> And more over we r still in a devastated financially country:scratchhead:


I feel for you, gpa. I know things can't be good in Greece, right now. It may take a whole generation to iron that out. And, by that time, USA might be in the same boat (if not sooner). blaaahhh!!


----------



## dymo

DailyGrind said:


> I'm still working the budget for DW. Thinking now to take the camper and stay in their campground. 16-18 hr drive both ways...but saves about $1,200. Not crazy about the long drive, but it DOES save money!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you know your wife's opinion on this?

I don't know how the dynamic works when the two of you make plans. It's possible some assumptions I make could be way off. If so I apologize. Just thinking back to some older posts. For example:



DailyGrind said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Okay...I found that my wife was apparently writing notes for some sort of reply to me. Here's what she wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> * "Learned early that disagreements were met w/ nastiness."
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> * "Had no interest in sitting in smoke-filled karoke bar, but you didn't care..and just got nasty about it."
> 
> ...
> 
> * "Didn't like sailing because she was tired of my tone, and didn't like all the money being spent on the boat."


The pattern so far - You take her to go some place she doesn't want to go, or do something she doesn't want to do. She is reluctant to bring up disagreements because she would only encounter 'nastiness'. And so she does not properly convey this to you, but instead carries the resentments for years. 

Also thought of something from MC:



DailyGrind said:


> 1) Although she initially liked that I was a "take charge" kind of person, she feels I have completely taken over...and she feels more like an employee.



Taking the lead is important, it's part of the package she fell in love with. But I don't think any of your marriage problems have stemmed from inability in that area. Your problems are more from what happens when "take charge" is not coupled with consideration and communication. You have been making an effort to be more empathetic, which is good, though I suspect still a work in progress. 

Perhaps another step for major decisions may be to actively seek her opinions out. By all means take the lead, but give her space to be as much a part of the process as you are. If she so wishes. Show that it's safe to speak what's on her mind, even if the two of you disagree. Make her feel like she is a partner with opinions that matter, not an employee.

There's only so much you can do about the past, but you can demonstrate history doesn't have to repeat itself. The Disney trip could be an opportunity to showcase this. If she feels she also has equal ownership for the Disney (and other) plans, she may be less likely to resent you for them.

There is an added side benefit. People do have a point that the more you talk about separation, the more she might gravitate toward it. The opposite is also true. The more engaged she is in Disney and plans for the future, the further separation will be from her mind.


----------



## happyman64

I was thinking the same thing.

Should strong assertive DG make the decision ow to stay in DW?

Or

Should caring sensitive DG ask Mrs. DG how she wants to stay in DW?

My two cents, I would not want o be cooped up at night in a camper with the kids and the wife.

I would spend the extra $$$ and let my wife know why we are staying in DW in a king size bed. Much better for the back massages......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

happyman64 said:


> I was thinking the same thing.
> 
> Should strong assertive DG make the decision ow to stay in DW?
> 
> Or
> 
> Should caring sensitive DG ask Mrs. DG how she wants to stay in DW?
> 
> My two cents, I would not want o be cooped up at night in a camper with the kids and the wife.
> 
> I would spend the extra $$$ and let my wife know why we are staying in DW in a king size bed. Much better for the back massages......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Spending all day at DW and coming home to a camper sounds like torture to me. Will she be expected to do the cooking too?
Is there any place for romance in a camper?

One option might be to stay a little further away in a suite.

How much input does your wife have in all this? We're going to Fla in May and I have no input or interest in what arrangements my wife and daughter have made. My son and I just want to get to the beach. LOL


----------



## Beowulf

When we went to Disney we stayed at a place in Orlando but not extremely close. It was right off the highway located midway between Disney and Universal Orlando. BTW, don't neglect to go to Universal Orlando. It was almost as good as Disney! The place was a golf resort near the convention center. Don't laugh. If a place is catering to high level business executives they have to pull out all the stops. It was very nice and because it was a golf resort there was a lot of land around the hotel. Less traffic and more quiet. It was also nice to be able to walk around at night since nobody was on the golf course then. When my wife wakes up I'll ask her what the name of the place was.


----------



## Beowulf

chapparal said:


> Spending all day at DW and coming home to a camper sounds like torture to me. Will she be expected to do the cooking too?
> Is there any place for romance in a camper?
> 
> One option might be to stay a little further away in a suite.
> 
> How much input does your wife have in all this? We're going to Fla in May and I have no input or interest in what arrangements my wife and daughter have made. My son and I just want to get to the beach. LOL


If you're going to stay in Daytona, stay at the Hilton. I know its a little more expensive but its so worth it. We've stayed at other hotels in Daytona and they were dives in comparison.


----------



## Chaparral

Beowulf said:


> If you're going to stay in Daytona, stay at the Hilton. I know its a little more expensive but its so worth it. We've stayed at other hotels in Daytona and they were dives in comparison.


No, we're going to Destin, taking a small dog and staying in a condo. We can get to Destin in a day's driving which is the way I like to go.


----------



## Beowulf

chapparal said:


> No, we're going to Destin, taking a small dog and staying in a condo. We can get to Destin in a day's driving which is the way I like to go.


That's up by Tallahassee right? Never been to that part of Florida before. We always end up in central Florida. My wife loves Disney and Universal. Even now that the kids are grown. I love to watch her eyes light up when we go. She acts like a three year old little girl. I love it. And I don't have to change diapers.


----------



## Morrigan

Beowulf said:


> When we went to Disney we stayed at a place in Orlando but not extremely close. It was right off the highway located midway between Disney and Universal Orlando. BTW, don't neglect to go to Universal Orlando. It was almost as good as Disney! The place was a golf resort near the convention center. Don't laugh. If a place is catering to high level business executives they have to pull out all the stops. It was very nice and because it was a golf resort there was a lot of land around the hotel. Less traffic and more quiet. It was also nice to be able to walk around at night since nobody was on the golf course then. When my wife wakes up I'll ask her what the name of the place was.


It's called Shingle Creek Resort. Here's the link.

Orlando Meeting Hotel | Orlando Convention Hotel | Orlando Golf Hotel | Vacation Hotel Orlando Florida

When Beowulf told me we were going to stay at a golf resort I was not convinced. I even said "you don't even play golf!" But he was right. It was very nice. And right near everything.


----------



## Morrigan

Beowulf said:


> That's up by Tallahassee right? Never been to that part of Florida before. We always end up in central Florida. My wife loves Disney and Universal. Even now that the kids are grown. I love to watch her eyes light up when we go. She acts like a three year old little girl. I love it. And I don't have to change diapers.


I do NOT act like a three year old. A five year old maybe but not a three year old.

And the diaper thing...TMI :rofl:


----------



## Chaparral

Beowulf said:


> That's up by Tallahassee right? Never been to that part of Florida before. We always end up in central Florida. My wife loves Disney and Universal. Even now that the kids are grown. I love to watch her eyes light up when we go. She acts like a three year old little girl. I love it. And I don't have to change diapers.


Destin is great. Totally white beach sand. We've only been once so far. We love southern FLA, both sides and the keys best but it adds to much driving time right now. Can't wait.


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## Beowulf

Destin huh? Sounds interesting. Maybe our destiny is to visit Destin.

Sorry, you know I had to.


----------



## Beowulf

Morrigan said:


> I do NOT act like a three year old. A five year old maybe but not a three year old.
> 
> And the diaper thing...TMI :rofl:


TMI huh? LOL


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Spending all day at DW and coming home to a camper sounds like torture to me. Will she be expected to do the cooking too?
> Is there any place for romance in a camper?
> 
> One option might be to stay a little further away in a suite.
> 
> How much input does your wife have in all this? We're going to Fla in May and I have no input or interest in what arrangements my wife and daughter have made. My son and I just want to get to the beach. LOL


Well...guys....a couple things. First...the camper is 22 ft. long, with its own kitchen, and bathroom/shower....and separate sleeping compartments for the kids and parents (opposite sides of the camper)....plus...has air conditioning. Second....when we go camping....yours truly does pretty much ALL the cooking, dish cleaning.....and camping maintenance. So...it is usually very little work for W. Lastly, since the DW campground is inside the park....we can take advantage of all the DW amenities....characters on the grounds, nice swimming pool, transportation (water taxi straight across the lake to the amusement park), child care....and meal plan. We would probably use the meal plan, so that very little camping needed to be done. Plus...they have kids activities (bbq's, marshmellow roasts, structured events). It really isn't like camping, afterall. AND...it saves about $1,200. 

As far as decisions....I've always felt that I offer W options, and we together make joint decisions. I don't ever TELL her how things are going to be. Hope that clarifies.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Well...guys....a couple things. First...the camper is 22 ft. long, with its own kitchen, and bathroom/shower....and separate sleeping compartments for the kids and parents (opposite sides of the camper)....plus...has air conditioning. Second....when we go camping....yours truly does pretty much ALL the cooking, dish cleaning.....and camping maintenance. So...it is usually very little work for W. Lastly, since the DW campground is inside the park....we can take advantage of all the DW amenities....characters on the grounds, nice swimming pool, transportation (water taxi straight across the lake to the amusement park), child care....and meal plan. We would probably use the meal plan, so that very little camping needed to be done. Plus...they have kids activities (bbq's, marshmellow roasts, structured events). It really isn't like camping, afterall. AND...it saves about $1,200.
> 
> As far as decisions....I've always felt that I offer W options, and we together make joint decisions. I don't ever TELL her how things are going to be. Hope that clarifies.


I've heard of the DW campgrounds. They sound like fun if you like that sort of thing. My wife's idea of roughing it is no room service so you can imagine how camping would go over with her. lol


----------



## DailyGrind

By the way....W and I have been getting along so darn well, lately....it is WONDERFUL. Sexually....we've been having the honeymoon we really didn't have.  Actually had two times yesterday! We've been joking around, talking, and downright having a grand time. She seems genuinely SO MUCH happier. I truly feel we have turned a fantastic corner. She is now the most fantastic wife....and I'm still working hard to be her perfect husband. Most nights we go to bed together. And she's back to spooning me again! :smthumbup:

Back in my dating days, I used to have a test (of sorts) I would give my dates. If they did some sort of sound effect, I would immediately ask....'How did that go?' If they would repeat the effect...I knew they were fun. W actually would go a third time, if I asked again. he, he! During our downtime (last two years)....if I asked her 'How did that go?'......she would just shoot me a glare, and say..."I'm not doing it again." Today.....she repeated TWICE (second time on her own accord). She's BACK! yahhoooo!


----------



## TDSC60

My wife and I took our kids and our grand daughter to DW last summer. Don't know about the camping setup but I would very much recommend the meal plan. You can eat at any facility in any of the parks and the food is fantastic. We did not have a bad meal.

Plus be sure to take the kids to the Character breakfast at the Contemporary motel. That was the highlight of the trip for grand daughter. Have a fun time.


----------



## warlock07

DailyGrind said:


> By the way....W and I have been getting along so darn well, lately....it is WONDERFUL. Sexually....we've been having the honeymoon we really didn't have.  Actually had two times yesterday! We've been joking around, talking, and downright having a grand time. She seems genuinely SO MUCH happier. I truly feel we have turned a fantastic corner. She is now the most fantastic wife....and I'm still working hard to be her perfect husband. Most nights we go to bed together. And she's back to spooning me again! :smthumbup:
> 
> Back in my dating days, I used to have a test (of sorts) I would give my dates. If they did some sort of sound effect, I would immediately ask....'How did that go?' If they would repeat the effect...I knew they were fun. W actually would go a third time, if I asked again. he, he! During our downtime (last two years)....if I asked her 'How did that go?'......she would just shoot me a glare, and say..."I'm not doing it again." Today.....she repeated TWICE (second time on her own accord). She's BACK! yahhoooo!



Make sure you keep listening to her. The small things might pile up once again when things get a little more comfortable. Tell her that you are bit dense sometimes and you need her help to see more clearly sometimes. Don't let the resentment build up once again.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> By the way....W and I have been getting along so darn well, lately....it is WONDERFUL. Sexually....we've been having the honeymoon we really didn't have.  Actually had two times yesterday! We've been joking around, talking, and downright having a grand time. She seems genuinely SO MUCH happier. I truly feel we have turned a fantastic corner. She is now the most fantastic wife....and I'm still working hard to be her perfect husband. Most nights we go to bed together. And she's back to spooning me again! :smthumbup:
> 
> Back in my dating days, I used to have a test (of sorts) I would give my dates. If they did some sort of sound effect, I would immediately ask....'How did that go?' If they would repeat the effect...I knew they were fun. W actually would go a third time, if I asked again. he, he! During our downtime (last two years)....if I asked her 'How did that go?'......she would just shoot me a glare, and say..."I'm not doing it again." Today.....she repeated TWICE (second time on her own accord). She's BACK! yahhoooo!


Really a nice post to read on a Monday morning......Props to you both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Almostrecovered

now keep your damn fool mouth shut and stop asking about separation


----------



## Humble Pie

DailyGrind said:


> We have NEVER really argued, in the past (part of our problem, I suppose.) We both just do our little snide retortes, and run. *We never address our issues*. I think, last weekend, was sort of a turning point. I actually realized I couldn't take it any more, and pushed back. Then, yesterday we were at a outing, where we both had a bit too much.....and the argument sort of flowed. Oddly...in a very low key (pretty much no one could tell) manner. But, I kept getting "your rediculous", "your too sensitive"...to all my issues (like her not even thanking me for the anniversary present....she claims she did....but I just "didn't hear her".....kind of the point of thanking someone, isn't it?)
> 
> We have two little adorable kids (6 and 8) who are pretty much why I am still in this thing. THAT*...and we can't afford to separate, financially.* So...for years now...I've just been ignoring the problems, and not confronting.
> 
> Here's my problems:
> 
> A) I truly love my wife with all my heart, but things have been SOOOO bad, for so long...I just don't even know if it makes sense. We have been so long from a normal relationship, which I truly long for from her...but I just don't know how to reach out to her. We tried counseling with our minister, last year....but he really didn't do much and nothing changed. We only had 4-5 sessions.
> B) She is obviously opening up to this guy, that I just met last night. Nothing sexual, as yet. But a few borderline comments. And...appears to be some history re-writing..and the two lamenting their awful marriages.
> C) After I left for work, she emailed the following to this guy after he asked if it was a "divorce/separation" talk (which stings the most):
> 
> *"I'm pretty certain it will be. I don't think either of us can hang in there. He doesn't really even have a good reason for marrying me. I'm sure he liked the idea of me but never actually liked me and most certainly has never "gotten" me. I can only be nice and take crap for so long. I feel like he has taken advantage of that for many years. And I don't like what it has done to me over the years. If you had something solid to begin with then try to fix things, but I don't think we ever had that. I know I've suggested being unhappy but nothing like this. Sorry to unload. "*
> 
> She just posted THIS to the guy:
> "_It sounds like you've has it pretty rough too. I hope you can get through it. Kids do change things. *Its even harder when parents can't be on the same page about how to raise kids. And then there are competitions about who does more. so much resentment over the years. a year and a half ago I decided I was done just taking it and just kind of cut off emotionally but that's a really cold way to live. *I was hoping to stay together for the kids but we're just setting a bad example for them. When he was yelling at me Saturday during breakfast poor Emily started to cry, ran over to me and buried her face in my shoulder all the while he continued. After he left she asked if we were going to get a divorce. It was really sad. We tried counseling briefly but it didn't and won't work._ "
> 
> DG- glad things are looking bright for you!
> 
> Just a question though, as the banter (communication exchange) and sexual life seem to be headed in the right direction, do you feel you should address some of the more important issues with your wife? I understand the concept of don't ruin a good thing while it lasts, but your wife has some areas that you need to still iron out with her that are rather serious and could posibliy lead you down the same strain if not addressed. JMOHO


----------



## Beowulf

DG has changed an awful lot since then. In fact up until recently the problem was that his wife hadn't noted the changes. She was still disconnected. I think this breakthrough has changed that. I think now she sees the changes that DG made to himself. And I think the new DG will not slide back into the old one. He knows where that leads. I also think they are beginning to communicate better. That will lead to less buried resentment as things move forward.


----------



## Humble Pie

Beowulf said:


> DG has changed an awful lot since then. In fact up until recently the problem was that his wife hadn't noted the changes. She was still disconnected. I think this breakthrough has changed that. I think now she sees the changes that DG made to himself. And I think the new DG will not slide back into the old one. He knows where that leads. I also think they are beginning to communicate better. That will lead to less buried resentment as things move forward.


thats fair, and I certainly hope so.


----------



## DailyGrind

Beowulf said:


> DG has changed an awful lot since then. In fact up until recently the problem was that his wife hadn't noted the changes. She was still disconnected. I think this breakthrough has changed that. I think now she sees the changes that DG made to himself. And I think the new DG will not slide back into the old one. He knows where that leads. I also think they are beginning to communicate better. That will lead to less buried resentment as things move forward.


I think this is true. I am certainly more AWARE of issues, my actions, and meeting HER love language. We have not entirely written off MC. We postponed last weekends scheduled session, to the end of this month. Although....I attribute our turn around to YOU GUYS more than anything the MC did. We'll see how the next session goes.

This all being said....we still have a long way to go. She still has not said "I love you." And she still does not seem to understand MY love language (touch and affirmation........hers are quality time, and acts of service.) For now....I am meeting her emotional needs. But, for me to truly be happy....I need her to TELL me she loves me...and need unsolicited touch. As we continue to grow...I'll work on trying to convey this to her, in a non-confrontational way.

As for progress....we have settled on DW in September. We are also working on plans for a trip (just the two of us) to New Orleans, for a long weekend (Memorial Day weekend.)

Here is an interesting exchange from Monday....but some background first. The previous Monday, I texted her that I "did some experimenting with the razor, during my morning shower...lol." The gist of our texting last Tuesday was a LOT around my new-found "smoothness"...if you know what I mean. She appears to really like it..and has been joking with me ever since. For instance...one of my texts was that Wednesday was Survivor night...and I had plans for her. She responded..."is that your SMOOTH move?" 

Anyway...this past Monday...when I got home for work, I did my normal hello hugs to the kids...then went to W, and gave her a peck on the cheek. DD1 commented "I thought you guys didn't kiss anymore!" I responded....'no....YOU mentioned that we don't kiss....I never said that. In fact...here's ANOTHER kiss for her.' W then adds..."Mommy and Daddy just went through a rough patch for a while...that is all." I then quipped in...'Yeah...now we are all SMOOTHED over.' W just doubled up laughing.

So...we are soooo on a completely elevated level, in joking around...and being sexual with each other. Things seem great. We've been joking about the New Orleans trip...and I keep telling her the goal is maximum beads. She keeps responding she doesn't think (after two kids) she is "bead-worthy." I keep assuring her she absolutely is. And we both laugh. But..in the long run...she does need to learn to start speaking MY love language. I hope we get there. I think we will. AND...yes...we do need to address some of the failings (communication is number one) that got us to that bad place. But...not now. I also think we need (at some point) to address how devastated I was by her beginning stage EA. It seems to be a bit rug-swept right now. And NOW is not the right time. I don't think it needs to come up, as punishment...or anything. I just think she will need to understand the emotional avalanche I went through (and am still dealing with......I will STILL go through triggers...and she will need to understand them.)

Hope all this makes sense.

Thanks all, for your support and advice. It has been priceless!!


----------



## warlock07

You just want to brag about how good your joke was, don't you? Hahaha

And The EA thing can wait a bit.


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> You just want to brag about how good your joke was, don't you? Hahaha
> 
> And The EA thing can wait a bit.


Well...yeah. But I also found it interesting that she said we "WENT through a rough patch"...as in PAST TENSE.


----------



## MEM2020

DG,
Do NOT ask your W why she doesn't say I love you. Do NOT do that. You two are on a GREAT upward tilt. Keep it going. She is showing you she loves you in a lot of ways. 

When ready, she will say it. In the mean time she is PROVING it. Let her move at her own pace in that area. Not everyone can say those words as easily as the rest of us.





Iwant2bhappy said:


> Having a bad day here...so, this is just my opinion and I'm sure I will get heat from this:
> 
> Don't go back to MC. I think sometimes it brings up more bad then good. You two are doing fine right now, why put that pressure on eachother?
> 
> Just ask her why she never says "I Love You." What is it going to hurt? Just me nice and honest about the question.
> 
> Also, very sad about your daughter's comment. I always thought about how my children were going to act during their marriage, with them seeing no affection between their parents. It always made me so sad thinking about it.
> 
> Take Care DG...glad things are working out for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

Do not ask about why she does not say I love you.

My wife and I are married over 20 years and she has very rarely said I love you. It is just the way she is.

It used to bother me but when I look at her actions those speak louder than any words she could ever say to me.

just keep moving forward DG. You and your wife are on the right path.

Keep the rough patch behind you Mr. Smoothe!!!!


----------



## golfergirl

Make her a 'Smoothie' for breakfast tomorrow! Ha ha! Glad all is going well!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

While I agree I shouldn't ask her, at this time. At some point she will need to understand....my love languages ARE Words of Affirmation and Touch. Which I never really knew about before our troubles. She has rarely spoken my language. I have always been the one to initiate touch....and words of affirmation have nearly always been lacking. So, how do I go about getting her to ultimately speak MY language? I'm speaking hers. Can I help what my language is??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Just don't push. You have been on a long hard road with what looked like a train wreck at the end. Now you can actually see light at the end of the tunnel. Like everyone here says, its not what they say that matters its their actions that count. You might just have to modify your wants for the time being. Some people are not comfortable with touching. I am, but don't do it a lot. Go figure.


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## MEM2020

Daily,
Did you ever see the movie Princess Bride? If you have, then you will really "get" this, if not rent the movie it is delightful. 

There is a scene in the movie where Wesley (the hero) has been tortured and is "dead". Except, while he is "dead", he isn't "dead dead". 

So his true love brings him to the local witch doctor who revives him. 

It seemed to me that your marriage was "dead", but not "dead dead". And here you are having brought it back to life. I have no idea how you pulled this off but you did. 

Now please take this advice in the constructive spirit it is given:
- Your W is always going to want you to primarily "lead" the physical part of the marriage. 
- Her entire posture towards you has changed. From cold, withdrawn and almost hostile to playful and sexual and engaged. 

My W could entirely stop saying "ILY" to me and it would be ok. She could do that because everything she "does" shows me that she feels that way. 

The world is full of marriages where one or the other spouse pays lip service to "ILY" and that is ALL they do. 

You are getting the "real deal" she is "walking the walk". 

Yours is the most extreme and rapid case of recovery I have seen on this board. 

Your W has some difficulty with hearing ILY and certainly saying it. For now, do NOT bring this up else you will come across as needy.




DailyGrind said:


> While I agree I shouldn't ask her, at this time. At some point she will need to understand....my love languages ARE Words of Affirmation and Touch. Which I never really knew about before our troubles. She has rarely spoken my language. I have always been the one to initiate touch....and words of affirmation have nearly always been lacking. So, how do I go about getting her to ultimately speak MY language? I'm speaking hers. Can I help what my language is??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

MEM11363 said:


> Daily,
> Did you ever see the movie Princess Bride? If you have, then you will really "get" this, if not rent the movie it is delightful.
> 
> There is a scene in the movie where Wesley (the hero) has been tortured and is "dead". Except, while he is "dead", he isn't "dead dead".
> 
> So his true love brings him to the local witch doctor who revives him.
> 
> It seemed to me that your marriage was "dead", but not "dead dead". And here you are having brought it back to life. I have no idea how you pulled this off but you did.
> 
> Now please take this advice in the constructive spirit it is given:
> - Your W is always going to want you to primarily "lead" the physical part of the marriage.
> - Her entire posture towards you has changed. From cold, withdrawn and almost hostile to playful and sexual and engaged.
> 
> My W could entirely stop saying "ILY" to me and it would be ok. She could do that because everything she "does" shows me that she feels that way.
> 
> The world is full of marriages where one or the other spouse pays lip service to "ILY" and that is ALL they do.
> 
> You are getting the "real deal" she is "walking the walk".
> 
> Yours is the most extreme and rapid case of recovery I have seen on this board.
> 
> Your W has some difficulty with hearing ILY and certainly saying it. For now, do NOT bring this up else you will come across as needy.


I'm not at all disagreeing with ANYTHING you are saying. I agree wholeheartedly. Actually....I'm extremely thrilled how things are going, right now. But (you knew this was coming)...the fact that you would be fine with never hearing ILY again...just goes to show it is not your LL. My W is now doing some acts of service for me that SHOWS me she loves me. We typically trade off doing laundry (whoever has more time.) Prior to two years ago, my wife (when she did the laundry) would actually match up my socks, and fold together for me. Over the last two years...that went out the window. All the socks were just thrown into a basket (IF...she even DID my clothes for me.) Last weekend, she left a basket of folded clothes for me.....and the socks were matched up!!!! In my mind...this is the greatest example that she DOES love me. It is an acts of service from her! I'm sure...in HER mind...this demonstrates how far she has come. Now....granted....I would NEVER say this to her....but.....my MIND understands what this means. But....I have no problem doing my own laundry....and it never bothered me while she WASN'T folding/matching my socks. However...IF....she were to (unexpectedly) lean over....gently touch my arm...and whisper ILY into my ear???!!!!! Are you kidding me???!!! I'd be doing cartwheels for an entire week!! THAT....is the power of speaking the right love language.

For years...I ASSUMED I was doing everything right. I worked hard to provide; I hugged/kissed my wife (and told her ILY) more than daily....and MEANT it. What I didn't realize......none of those were her LL's. All my hard work, took me away from the family...so I wasn't providing quality time, nor acts of service. I know this isn't something I need to discuss with W, anytime soon. But, at some point....she just needs to understand the power of speaking the right LL. If she could learn that.....imagine how much less time it takes to do a flirty touch of my shoulder, instead of matching up all my socks!


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## KirkSpock

After reading this entire thread, from page 1 to 110, I just wanted to thank DG (and the posters who have offered diverse yet heartfelt and useful advice) for posting all of this private and extremely personal information about marriage. It can’t be easy and it takes some real chutzpa to open yourself up to criticism from total strangers, particularly on issues so emotionally devastating as what’s been discussed here. I want you to know that, even when I disagreed with some of the decisions made by DG, I learned a LOT from reading his posts. So besides possibly saving your marriage and family, DG, you have also helped others (complete strangers) by the mere fact of posting about your experiences, good or bad. So…..thanks, and please know that even people you have never met are rooting for you and your family!

PS
Others may disagree, but if I were you, I would TELL my wife tonight how much I notice her trying to become my perfect wife, and that in seeing and experiencing this change, you are even MORE MOTIVATED than ever before to be the perfect husband to the woman you are crazy, head over heals in love with (I am talking about your wife hehehehe). I think in that context, the word LOVE has much more meaning and is not “over the top” (if you really feel that way). You are placing your “love” in a context your wife can understand. She may not respond with “I love you too”, but in my opinion, framing your love within a context is taking the lead and giving her the opportunity to respond in kind. Saying “I love you”, especially in the midst of divorce talks or talks of separation, is much different than “When I see you trying every day to improve our marriage, I am motivated even more to be your perfect husband; I am filled with motivation to try as hard as I can to make you happy, and I just can’t help but love you more and more each day which I didn’t even know was possible since I have always been head over heals in love with you from the first day we met.”. I’m not saying you have to use those exact words (I am cert5ainly no poet or wordsmith), but I hope you see the difference between a somewhat meaningless “I LOVE YOU SO MUCH”, and something that contextualizes and frames where the love is coming from.

And for the love of all that you deem holy…..NEVER communicate important issues like that through email or text: I personally view that as beta behavior, or of someone who doesn’t have the stones to discuss serious issues face to face. A text saying “I love you so much” comes from a teenage boy. A MAN looks you in the eye when proclaiming love, and he means it.
Anyway, that’s just my 2 cents: GOOD LUCK 


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## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> I think this is true. I am certainly more AWARE of issues, my actions, and meeting HER love language. We have not entirely written off MC. We postponed last weekends scheduled session, to the end of this month. Although....I attribute our turn around to YOU GUYS more than anything the MC did. We'll see how the next session goes.
> 
> This all being said....we still have a long way to go. She still has not said "I love you." And she still does not seem to understand MY love language (touch and affirmation........hers are quality time, and acts of service.) For now....I am meeting her emotional needs. But, for me to truly be happy....I need her to TELL me she loves me...and need unsolicited touch. As we continue to grow...I'll work on trying to convey this to her, in a non-confrontational way.
> 
> As for progress....we have settled on DW in September. We are also working on plans for a trip (just the two of us) to New Orleans, for a long weekend (Memorial Day weekend.)
> 
> Here is an interesting exchange from Monday....but some background first. The previous Monday, I texted her that I "did some experimenting with the razor, during my morning shower...lol." The gist of our texting last Tuesday was a LOT around my new-found "smoothness"...if you know what I mean. She appears to really like it..and has been joking with me ever since. For instance...one of my texts was that Wednesday was Survivor night...and I had plans for her. She responded..."is that your SMOOTH move?"
> 
> Anyway...this past Monday...when I got home for work, I did my normal hello hugs to the kids...then went to W, and gave her a peck on the cheek. DD1 commented "I thought you guys didn't kiss anymore!" I responded....'no....YOU mentioned that we don't kiss....I never said that. In fact...here's ANOTHER kiss for her.' W then adds..."Mommy and Daddy just went through a rough patch for a while...that is all." I then quipped in...'Yeah...now we are all SMOOTHED over.' W just doubled up laughing.
> 
> So...we are soooo on a completely elevated level, in joking around...and being sexual with each other. Things seem great. We've been joking about the New Orleans trip...and I keep telling her the goal is maximum beads. She keeps responding she doesn't think (after two kids) she is "bead-worthy." I keep assuring her she absolutely is. And we both laugh. But..in the long run...she does need to learn to start speaking MY love language. I hope we get there. I think we will. AND...yes...we do need to address some of the failings (communication is number one) that got us to that bad place. But...not now. I also think we need (at some point) to address how devastated I was by her beginning stage EA. It seems to be a bit rug-swept right now. And NOW is not the right time. I don't think it needs to come up, as punishment...or anything. I just think she will need to understand the emotional avalanche I went through (and am still dealing with......I will STILL go through triggers...and she will need to understand them.)
> 
> Hope all this makes sense.
> 
> Thanks all, for your support and advice. It has been priceless!!


Great update. DG I'm so happy you and your wife are connecting better. I think the rest will come as she realized that this is not a temporary but a permanent change in your marriage. Keep up with what you are doing. Keep the lines of communication going. Save the I LOVE YOU discussion for MC sometime in the future when you feel it is necessary. You're on your way friend. :smthumbup:


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## DailyGrind

Thaks! We are a 4-day geataway for Memorial Day weekend. I THINK that will be memorable. She's excited about. That, and the Disney trip in September, will be our first true getaway trips (non-work, or non-camping) since we went to Hungary in 2000.


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## DailyGrind

By the way...I attribute our turnaround (hoping it isn't temporary) ENTIRELY to the exceedingly great advice I've gotten from all you guys. You've all given me much better guidance than anything the councelors provided. Although the MC sessions DID give us a "safe" venue for starting to open up.....so, I'm not entirely discounting its worth. Thank you ALL....you've been a blessing. I'll keep up the updates.


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## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Thaks! We are a 4-day geataway for Memorial Day weekend. I THINK that will be memorable. She's excited about. That, and the Disney trip in September, will be our first true getaway trips (non-work, or non-camping) since we went to Hungary in 2000.


I really think the NO trip is going to be so special for you two. I think you will both come back closer and better than ever. Don't even entertain the thought of bringing up anything even remotely negative because I believe after that trip much of what you still feel needs to be addressed will evaporate without a whisper. Many times we worry about problems and how to solve them when they are often solved simply by time and circumstance. I think that is what is happening and going to happen here.


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## PHTlump

I agree with MEM. DG, I think you have to consider the possibility that your wife will never be interested in changing herself to be more compatible with you. As you know, changing yourself is a difficult and daunting task. And most people just aren't interested. Even if the consequences for not changing are severe.

It appears that your wife didn't want a divorce. Yet, rather than say those words, she was willing to accept a divorce. You were the one to stop the momentum, change your approach, and take the marriage to a better place. Your wife just doesn't appear capable of doing that.

So, my advice is to ready yourself for the possibility that you will never get your needs met in the way that you would most like them to be met. You may have to settle for matched socks instead of touches. The difference now is that you understand what it all means.

I hope she decides to change her approach. But I'm just warning you that it might not happen. And going overboard to try to get her to change may end up sabotaging the progress you've made.

Good luck.


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## happyman64

DG,

No need to thank us. I am using some of your techniques at home to keep my marriage on the up draft.

And I am married to this woman for 20 years with no issues.

She sees the difference and is enjoying it. 

By the way, do not worry about the touches. You will eventually rub off on her your positive re-inforcement. In fact it is already working.

Just keep doing what you are doing.

I am going home tonight after work and organizing all of the families socks tonight that are sitting in a pile on my wife's dresser. 

Then I am going to "sock" it to her!!!

Thank you DG.....

HM64


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## Beowulf

happyman64 said:


> DG,
> 
> No need to thank us. I am using some of your techniques at home to keep my marriage on the up draft.
> 
> And I am married to this woman for 20 years with no issues.
> 
> She sees the difference and is enjoying it.
> 
> By the way, do not worry about the touches. You will eventually rub off on her your positive re-inforcement. In fact it is already working.
> 
> Just keep doing what you are doing.
> 
> I am going home tonight after work and organizing all of the families socks tonight that are sitting in a pile on my wife's dresser.
> 
> Then I am going to "sock" it to her!!!
> 
> Thank you DG.....
> 
> HM64


Sock it to her. Hmmm, sounds like fun. I'm going to do just that. I mean...me sock it to my wife, not me sock it to your...oh nevermind.


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## DailyGrind

I have "techniques"?? Cool! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dymo

I think DG is taking the right tack. If there is an issue that's important enough to him, he should bring it up at some point. My issue with DG's interactions have been not so much what he says, but how and when he says it. It's encouraging he seems to be putting some thought into how to approach the LLs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

You may find ,after a while, that not saying I love you gets her to wondering why you are not saying it. After,you know, a nights fun you might squeeze in an "I adore you so much." Say some things like this over time and you might be surprised at what she responds with.


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## Catherine602

MEM You watched The Princess Bride!! And you liked it!!! You never cease to amaze me. 


DG I am so happy. This thread is so uplifting.


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## Chaparral

Catherine602 said:


> MEM You watched The Princess Bride!! And you liked it!!! You never cease to amaze me.
> 
> 
> DG I am so happy. This thread is so uplifting.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


Its been a long hard struggle for OP. I was about to give up.


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## Beowulf

Catherine602 said:


> MEM You watched The Princess Bride!! And you liked it!!! You never cease to amaze me.
> 
> 
> DG I am so happy. This thread is so uplifting.


Buttercup: "What about the Rous's?"

Wesley: "Rodents of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist."

I love that movie.


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## MEM2020

Miracle Max: He probably owes you money huh? I'll ask him. 
Inigo Montoya: He's dead. He can't talk. 
Miracle Max: Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.
Inigo Montoya: What's that? 
Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change. 






Beowulf said:


> Buttercup: "What about the Rous's?"
> 
> Wesley: "Rodents of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist."
> 
> I love that movie.


----------



## Beowulf

MEM11363 said:


> Miracle Max: He probably owes you money huh? I'll ask him.
> Inigo Montoya: He's dead. He can't talk.
> Miracle Max: Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.
> Inigo Montoya: What's that?
> Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change.


Anyone else craving an MLT?


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## Catherine602

Beowulf said:


> Buttercup: "What about the Rous's?"
> 
> Wesley: "Rodents of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist."
> 
> I love that movie.


What is this? :scratchhead:


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## Beowulf

Catherine602 said:


> What is this? :scratchhead:


What? Rodents of Unusual Size or an MLT?

ROUS are the rats in the fire swamp.

An MLT is a mutton, lettuce and tomato sandwich "where the mutton is nice and lean and the tomato is ripe. They're so perky, I love that."


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## DailyGrind

Ordered a new KING-sized bed today. Hopefully, she will be able to sleep better, and be happier. Plus, Best Buy had a special on a 40" LCD tv....to
Relay our small one in the bedroom.....more bedroom time together! . We are REALLY getting along so much better. Completely different. This is the best we have EVER gotten along.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Ordered a new KING-sized bed today. Hopefully, she will be able to sleep better, and be happier. Plus, Best Buy had a special on a 40" LCD tv....to
> Relay our small one in the bedroom.....more bedroom time together! . We are REALLY getting along so much better. Completely different. This is the best we have EVER gotten along.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG, every little thing you do to show you are committed to her is a huge stride in the right direction. I'm so happy for you man. Maybe its time to change your avatar picture lol.


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## DailyGrind

Hi all,

I can't believe it has been two weeks since my last post. Nothing really dramatic happened until yesterday/today. First, to update....We got the new bed in a week ago. It isn't really helping her sleep all that much better...BUT....now I'm further away, so she can't kick me as easily (when I snore). 

I have an overnight at the sleep center, in two weeks. Hopefully that will provide some insight.

Other than that, we have been spending some really good quality time together. I go to bed with her, nearly every night (yes....at {gulp} 8:00 - 9:00 pm). But we watch some tv on our new tv; talk; and 2-3 times a week....get jiggy w'd it! :smthumbup: She has started being a whole lot more affectionate (when I hug her....her arms actually seem to have some strength in them, again.....and not just wet noodles.) LOL.

As to "dramatic".....we had made reservations for Easter Sunday brunch. Kids were playing on a jungle gym (VERY smart restaurant owner actually has one in the back, where the open-air section of the restaurant/bar is. We were sipping mimosa's. I turned to her and said: 

Me: We are doing better, right?
W: Yes...of course....don't you think so?
Me: Absolutely..just wanted to make sure you were on the same page.
Me: I love you, you know.
W: {wait for it}....."Me too."

I sent her a text today that I love her. She "I luv u 2" back at me.

Ahhh....those elusive words.....are back!!! Still have counseling scheduled for this Saturday. But just wanted to update you all....and THANK YOU...for all the great advice. I hope this sticks...but things seem SO much better. Too early to say for sure. Still wonder, a bit, about the "other phone"...and her start at an EA. I don't think I'm being hood-winked here...she really seems genuine. So...maybe the bygones need to be left as bygones? Focus on the future?


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## warlock07

I have a change of opinion regarding the other phone. I think there is a good chance that it might be her talking to herself.


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> I have a change of opinion regarding the other phone. I think there is a good chance that it might be her talking to herself.


Who knows. I haven't done it in a while....but until recently, when I waivered on my thoughts on it....I would whip out the recording and give a listen. EVERY TIME, I came away absolutely convinced it was a conversation. Maybe it was....but that is over. I don't know. I mean...there WERE other red flags too. TWICE during that two year hiatus...she ramped up her workout routine (once, right at the beginning...and right when the EA started.) Since the EA was blown out.....she really has no interest. She'll go with me...if I twist her arm a little. BUT....I mean..she was hard-core....going to 6:00 AM workout sessions (a couple times with AP)...at least twice a week. I truly believe there was interest in the AP....also, I think there might have been an EA at the start of the two years. Whatever it was....I DO believe it is all over. Now...it is back to 50-50 to making this work. I know *I* won't take it for granted, ever again.


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## CH

Catherine602 said:


> MEM You watched The Princess Bride!! And you liked it!!! You never cease to amaze me.
> 
> 
> DG I am so happy. This thread is so uplifting.


Who doesn't like The Princess Bride?!!!

I showed the movie to my kids and they love it also.

Kids now a days have no idea what good movies are.

I also like a ton of the old black and white movies when they actually had to act since there wasn't special effects and crap to distract audiences from crappy performances.


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## happyman64

DG,

Keep making it better. Expect the same from your wife!

I am happy for you.

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

cheatinghubby said:


> Who doesn't like The Princess Bride?!!!
> 
> I showed the movie to my kids and they love it also.


I loved THE MACHINE!!! :FIREdevil:


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## PHTlump

I think you're right. Sudden interest in appearance is a classic red flag. I have a family member that has been through a hand full of marriages and we can always tell when the current one is on its last legs when the pounds start coming off. Of course, the current spouse is usually oblivious and sees it as a good thing. Poor schmoe.

The red flags were there in the past. But, if you're willing to forgive it, it appears that she's back on board for the marriage. And now that you know those red flags, you'll be much better prepared to manage your relationship in the future.


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## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Who knows. I haven't done it in a while....but until recently, when I waivered on my thoughts on it....I would whip out the recording and give a listen. EVERY TIME, I came away absolutely convinced it was a conversation. Maybe it was....but that is over. I don't know. I mean...there WERE other red flags too. TWICE during that two year hiatus...she ramped up her workout routine (once, right at the beginning...and right when the EA started.) Since the EA was blown out.....she really has no interest. She'll go with me...if I twist her arm a little. BUT....I mean..she was hard-core....going to 6:00 AM workout sessions (a couple times with AP)...at least twice a week. I truly believe there was interest in the AP....also, I think there might have been an EA at the start of the two years. Whatever it was....I DO believe it is all over. Now...it is back to 50-50 to making this work. I know *I* won't take it for granted, ever again.


Here's the way I look at it. Whatever was taking her attention away from you...you nuked it good brother! I wouldn't give a seconds thought to any EA, other phone, gym workouts, etc. The purpose of everything is to get your wife back. You already did it. Nothing else to worry about. You are there my friend. It only gets better.


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## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Who knows. I haven't done it in a while....but until recently, when I waivered on my thoughts on it....I would whip out the recording and give a listen. EVERY TIME, I came away absolutely convinced it was a conversation. Maybe it was....but that is over. I don't know. I mean...there WERE other red flags too. TWICE during that two year hiatus...she ramped up her workout routine (once, right at the beginning...and right when the EA started.) Since the EA was blown out.....she really has no interest. She'll go with me...if I twist her arm a little. BUT....I mean..she was hard-core....going to 6:00 AM workout sessions (a couple times with AP)...at least twice a week. I truly believe there was interest in the AP....also, I think there might have been an EA at the start of the two years. Whatever it was....I DO believe it is all over. Now...it is back to 50-50 to making this work. I know *I* won't take it for granted, ever again.



I think something may have happened if you hadn't got wise. However, I don't think it ever reached the level where she believed something inappropriate was going on. I also believe the OM was going to try and bed her. He even used his wife as a backup to his nice guy bullsh!t but one of their topics of convo was how bad his relationship and differences in child rearing were. Would his wife have been so supportinve if she had known he was throwing her under the bus?

Congratulations on saving your familly because in my opinion thats exactly what you have accomplished.


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## Humble Pie

happy for you DG


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## DownUnder

I just finished reading 106 pages for the last couple of days and im so impressed with the progress you have made in your marriage.

DG you are a good man, your wife is lucky to have you and i really hope you continue to get closer and happier together....you deserve it.


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## DailyGrind

DownUnder said:


> I just finished reading 106 pages for the last couple of days and im so impressed with the progress you have made in your marriage.
> 
> DG you are a good man, your wife is lucky to have you and i really hope you continue to get closer and happier together....you deserve it.


Thank you! 

I am happy to report I got my first unsolicited "I love you" text yesterday. I don't think I've seen that in many years. So, I guess I can safely say it IS possible to get to the brink, and still come out even better. I think the key is A) I truly do love her with all my heart; B) I made the changes SHE needed...and am sticking to them; and C) i completely lucked out in catching her EA early. Thank GOD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

I am so happy DG. Indeed this thread is an inspiration. 

In think that There are several elements that led to success. DG made changes that were sustained was one. Another thing is his personality. 

Anger was.not a prominent feature of his approach to his wife. He did not show any generalization about women. No bait an switch talk and all of the other useless garbage. 

He acknowledged that he had a part in their problems and he did not fall into the male victim of women morass. The usual jumping through hoops statement was never uttered 

He said on message this was a problem with one woman and he maintained hope that he could solve the problem with this one woman. 

He looked for solutions and did not characterize meeting her needs as jumping through hoops. That indicates an acceptance of femaleness. 

If he thought he was fighting some fixed female issue, he probably would not have been so persistent. He was as open to advice from men and woman. He also has an endearing quality even under the strain of a sexless marriage.

I have mentioned before in other posts that anger towards women and falling into the usual "all women are like this". The jumping through hoops i can never understand. It seems to be asking women to meet their needs by behaving like men. 

That is a bit of a conundrum, no? I cannot see how they expect their partner to desire a connection with a hostile man, who is contemptuous of what many women need in a relationship. I think they should try the DG method. 

Sorry to jack your thread DG.


----------



## PHTlump

Catherine602 said:


> Anger was.not a prominent feature of his approach to his wife. He did not show any generalization about women. No bait an switch talk and all of the other useless garbage.
> 
> ...
> 
> I have mentioned before in other posts that anger towards women and falling into the usual "all women are like this". The jumping through hoops i can never understand. It seems to be asking women to meet their needs by behaving like men.


This made me smile. Decrying generalizations about women while making generalizations about men is just funny.

Ironically (see what I did there?) the advice he got here on manning up, setting and enforcing boundaries, and most of the standard advice men get for dealing with women looks to have saved his marriage.


----------



## Catherine602

PH generalizations? Where? 

He succeeded where other men that are given the same advice fail because of the type of man he is, not the advice alone. 

Give him a little credit. It is not so much what he did as it is how he did it. His execution was flawless. In addition, his wife is emotionally healthy. 

All of the flawless execiution in the world would not have made a difference If she were mentally unsound. 

Thanks for pointing that out so nicely. 

If you need an example of generalization look at the post before yours. What do you see? 

There are two problems that you have that have lead you to see generalizations in my post and skip over the very obvious and offensive ones in the post preceding yours. She a woman too! 

You see what you want to see and you agree with the generalization about women so you gloss over them. Too bad for you. 

I'll say no more on DGs thread.


----------



## PHTlump

Catherine602 said:


> PH generalizations? Where?


"No bait an switch talk and all of the other useless garbage. ... The usual jumping through hoops statement was never uttered ... I have mentioned before in other posts that anger towards women and falling into the usual "all women are like this"."

The above quoted sentences from your post indicate that you have generalized either the usual advice that men get, or the usual advisers, and dismissed it/them.



Catherine602 said:


> He succeeded where other men that are given the same advice fail because of the type of man he is, not the advice alone.


I will grant you that the administration of changes in a marriage is an important aspect of curing a marriage. But I don't know that it's more important than what the changes are, or should be. I assume that DG is largely the same man he was when his wife wouldn't give him the time of day.

If being a good man was a sufficient quality for a happy marriage, the divorce rate would not be what it is today. One must be a good man doing the right things.



Catherine602 said:


> If you need an example of generalization look at the post before yours. What do you see?
> 
> There are two problems that you have that have lead you to see generalizations in my post and skip over the very obvious and offensive ones in the post preceding yours. She a woman too!
> 
> You see what you want to see and you agree with the generalization about women so you gloss over them. Too bad for you.
> 
> I'll say no more on DGs thread.


I have no idea what you're talking about here. The post before mine is yours. That was the one I was responding to. I saw nothing offensive in your post. Just humorous.

As for generalizations about women, I see nothing inherently wrong with generalizing. Generalizations are valuable things. If we can say that women generally like chocolate, then I have good odds of making my wife happy on Valentine's Day by buying her chocolate. If we say that we can't know anything about anyone until we have learned it through trial and error, then I may spend years buying my wife tripe, liverwurst, and God knows what else before I discover that she likes chocolate (just like most other women).

I know that I have improved my marriage after I learned some general tendencies of how women think and act and applied that knowledge to my own relationship. So, good for me.


----------



## Beowulf

I don't know or care anything about generalizations. What I know is I am so damned happy for DG. If I lived near him I'd walk up and give him a big hug. When I start to get a little down reading the problems other people have on TAM I come to this thread for rejuvenation. DG's story is proof positive that with enough love and persistence you can do anything.


----------



## goodtimes

I stumbled upon this forum and have only read this one thread. It took me a couple of days. I joined only so I could reply and tell DG and all of the posters how helpful, enlightening, and encouraging this thread was for me.

DG, you are an inspiration! 

My H would like to read it next. I could relate to much of what you said about your wife, and I could see some of my H in DG.

Way to go everyone! 

:toast:


----------



## DailyGrind

goodtimes said:


> I stumbled upon this forum and have only read this one thread. It took me a couple of days. I joined only so I could reply and tell DG and all of the posters how helpful, enlightening, and encouraging this thread was for me.
> 
> DG, you are an inspiration!
> 
> My H would like to read it next. I could relate to much of what you said about your wife, and I could see some of my H in DG.
> 
> Way to go everyone!
> 
> :toast:


Thanks, GoodTimes....it's been a "fun" ride....but I think I'm done with it.  W and I went to our MC, yesterday. We hadn't seen her since right before we went on our Separation tangent. Thank God that never happened. MC was amazed at our turnaround. Basically we think we migh be done with MC. I'm still doing IC. MC asked W, after expressing amazement at HER turnaround.....what clicked with her. She responded she just decided to do away with her resentments. I said...'Oh...you mean it WASN'T me pulling you into the shower with me?' She laughed and said...well...that pretty much jolted me, and helped my decision. 

So....for all you wonderful people who have given me advice (ESPECIALLY the ones who pushed my to make a "move" on her)....I give my heartfull appreciation. That advice appears to have been absolutely golden. I am soooo thankful I took the advice. And the timing was perfect. It really seemed to jolt her back to me. I can't take the credit for this.....you guys inspired me to act, when I needed to. Without the help of TAM, I'm sure I would never have even recognized the danger our M was, when she started talking to the OM. Who knows where it would have gone....but THANK GOD I caught it in time.

If you could see how absolutely giddy we are now. We are like teenagers. It's amazing. DD1 actually told us to leave the room (kitchen) this morning, cause we are being all "goo goo faces at each other."  And we are TALKING to each other. It is a shame we had to get so bad....to get so good. But then....I guess we were just floating along before. Now we seem to be dedicating ourselves to each other, like never before.

Maybe it's time I shut down this thread? I'll still be here...though I don't know my advice to others can come close to that offered by: ShamWow, PHTLump, Beowulf, Catherine602, tennisstar, MEM11363, golfergirl, Chapparal, bandit.45, warlock07, Almostrecovered (please never change your avatar), working_together, Tall Average Guy, Shaggy, jellybeans, and everyone else that popped in to help me with my life. {please forgive me if I've missed one of the major contributors} Many more checked in and offered their input. To ALLLLL of you....you've gotten me through the past 5 months, and seen me to the other side. I owe you all so much! Many of you have already come back out of your dark hours...and stay here to help those, struggling behind you. I KNOW there is a special place in heaven for you all. I hope to emmulate your lead, and try to pay back, as well. So...this is by no means goodbye. Rather, with this post, I hope to pay tribute to those who cared...sacrificed their precious time....and selflessly aided a lost soul in the dark. I'm sure all of us will some day drift off into the internet void.....but hopefully...there will always be others ...the staywards....that take over the batton, and continue to....pay back.
With Deepest Gratitude,

DailyGrind


----------



## Chaparral

Gosh, this makes for a happy Sunday night. ;< )


----------



## Beowulf

You did it all DG. In the end she just couldn't resist you. Take care of that wonderful family of yours. I hope we get to hear from you down the road. You are truly an inspiration.


----------



## happyman64

DG,

You deserve all that is coming back to you in your relationship with your wife.

You never gave up and in fact fought for your marriage.

I am very happy for both of you that your love for one another has returned stronger than before.

Best Wishes to Both of You,

HM64


----------



## keko

Now that's a happy ending. Haven't read one in a long time.

Congrats DG, and best of luck to you/your family.


----------



## Almostrecovered

there is one unresolved issue in my mind DG- that you need to get your boundaries set in explicit terms and that transparency should be a must (for both of you of course)


----------



## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> there is one unresolved issue in my mind DG- that you need to get your boundaries set in explicit terms and that transparency should be a must (for both of you of course)


Absolutely right, of course. Thanks.


----------



## warlock07

Dg, just curious, but what changes have you made specifically since the beginning of the thread ? How do you make sure that you don't revert back to old patterns?


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Dg, just curious, but what changes have you made specifically since the beginning of the thread ? How do you make sure that you don't revert back to old patterns?


I posted a while back, I've made some very significant changes:

* Cut out late nights....I pretty much go to bed with her every night;
* No more porn;
* No more internet gaming;
* Much more time spent with her/family;
* Very cognizant of making sure there are no angry outbursts.

Being diligent, and making the above habits (versus doing them being habits) are the only way I can make sure not to revert. I also have learned her love language (as alien as they may be to me). I get more from a single touch from her, than anything else. She, on the on the otherhand, responds more to me cleaning up around the house. Go figure.  I'm focused now, on what does it for her. And she seems to be focusing on my language as well. I hope it all lasts.


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> I posted a while back, I've made some very significant changes:
> 
> * Cut out late nights....I pretty much go to bed with her every night;
> * No more porn;
> * No more internet gaming;
> * Much more time spent with her/family;
> * Very cognizant of making sure there are no angry outbursts.
> 
> Being diligent, and making the above habits (versus doing them being habits) are the only way I can make sure not to revert. I also have learned her love language (as alien as they may be to me). I get more from a single touch from her, than anything else. She, on the on the otherhand, responds more to me cleaning up around the house. Go figure.   I'm focused now, on what does it for her. And she seems to be focusing on my language as well. I hope it all lasts.


Your love language is touch and hers is acts of service. This is just like Morrigan and me. Now that things are going well make sure to stay communicating with each other. If one of you sees a problem developing address it asap rather than let it fester. Its an ongoing process but a very worthwhile one.


----------



## FourtyPlus

I tried to catch up on this thread ( I left of on page 57, I think) but it seems that all I needed to read is the last page: Happy Ending! I'm so happy for you and your family! This rocks!

Forgot to ask: Uh, how's the cat?


----------



## Almostrecovered

DailyGrind said:


> I hope this isn't long...



uh....


----------



## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> uh....


:awink:


----------



## golfergirl

DailyGrind said:


> :awink:


You made my day!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Buildingblocks

Hello DG, I've followed your epic journey from the start. This is the first time i'm writing on your thread. My heartiest congratulations to you.

With that in mind, how are things between you two. Also did you ever find out about her supposed to be EA. Any updates.


----------



## DailyGrind

Buildingblocks said:


> Hello DG, I've followed your epic journey from the start. This is the first time i'm writing on your thread. My heartiest congratulations to you.
> 
> With that in mind, how are things between you two. Also did you ever find out about her supposed to be EA. Any updates.


Hi Buildingblocks,

Thanks for the tag-in. The hard question first: I exposed her EA very early....I was lucky there. I followed the excellent advice on this forum and went full exposure...and killed whatever was building there. As to whether there was an EA that originated the two-year cold shoulder?? Well...no...I have nothing to prove that...and such, have dropped it (at least for now.) In my heart-of-hearts....I think SOMETHING happened. But, I think I would have to be extremely lucky to determine for sure.

Now the easy question: Things are absolutely fantastic between us now. I just got back from a business trip to Barcelona. Nearly the whole time, we communicated through texts and phone. She obviously missed me. I even got a couple naughtly pics from her (very unlike her....but she definitely was missing me.) I got home Father's Day night. I almost felt like the WWII troops in the New York parade! There was tremendous fanfare.....father's day gifts, father's day cake....favorite meal cooked....and some one-on-one...both that night...AND the next morning!!! I can honestly say, I don't think I've EVER felt so loved! She is clearly a different woman. And I can admit...I've stuck true to my own changes. We go to bed TOGETHER, most nights....no more gaming at night, more quality time, etc.

I hate to say it....cause the emotional pain over the past two years was something I would wish on no one....but.....it seems to have given us the closer relationship we've always wanted. I can only hope that it will grow even stronger over the many years to come.

All that being said......I struggle (still) with some level of angst. She turned from me once....will she again?? I don't think I am all THAT much different than I was before. But...this time...I think I know so much more than I did then. I {think} I would know how to deal with it.....should it ever happen again. It has definitely been a roller coaster.....but more feels like a merry-go-round, now. 

EDIT: Bear in mind....the previous three father's days/birthdays/anniversaries ....were virtually ignored. THIS one was nearly overwhelming in the intensity of the love.


----------



## Almostrecovered

best turnaround on this forum to date

when will you send us payment?


----------



## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> best turnaround on this forum to date
> 
> when will you send us payment?


Sorry...the input was PRICELESS. What can I do.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I smell class action lawsuit


----------



## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> I smell class action lawsuit


Did I say "priceless" on a public forum??? No, no....I meant WORTHLESS....on this very public, easily accessed by lawyers, forum. Yeah......completely worthless.

I'd now like to thank my MC for guiding me through such dark days. :rofl:


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Sorry...the input was PRICELESS. What can I do.


I can tell you one thing you can do is to just keep things going at home. Your thread among others help keep some of us posters going. Know that good out comes are possible gives us hope that others might come out on the winning side to. There are so many failures here that it really can get to you. So often the OPs simply cannot follow advice that has worked for others. Often,it seems like they are so hurt they simply can not comprhend what is really happening and too often then it is to late. You can see it coming but you can't stop the train. On top of that we have a few posters intent on pushing divorce on every thread in conjunction with disrespecting the folks in trouble.

Thank you so much for giving everything you had. You made it work and your family showed you that on a happy fathers day.

High fives and fist bumps to you.

Chap

PS, I had a happy fathers day too. My daughter made me the best banana cream pie I have ever tasted. Amen


----------



## happyman64

Hey DG,

Very cool fathers day for you. You deserve it.

I am glad you truly know your wife now. The good and the bad.

And you know what, she knows you now too!

Keep working in the marriage everyday my man. It will pay dividends...

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## golfergirl

DailyGrind said:


> Did I say "priceless" on a public forum??? No, no....I meant WORTHLESS....on this very public, easily accessed by lawyers, forum. Yeah......completely worthless.
> 
> I'd now like to thank my MC for guiding me through such dark days. :rofl:


Just continue to pay it forward like you do.... Glad to read this!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

If I could only get past the angst sooner, though. I KNOW things are fine now. But also, I know I'm not over the trauma/drama. I feel there has been some rug sweeping. She doesn't know the true pain I felt. I don't think it helps to talk to her about it. I'm sure I just need time. It will come. I just can'mt wait for the anxiety to go completely away.

I plan on doing a new post to "newbies" soon...to try and condense my experience (so they don't need to read my entire epic post), and hopefully give them the wisdom of ACTING early, instead of waiting "to see.". If not for the stellar wisdom of this forum....who knows where I would be. 

I've also thought about sharing my post with W.....though I know it would be embarrasing for her to read about my spying, anger, helplessness. What do you guys think?

Thanks for the continued support!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Buildingblocks

Awesome man. I'm so happy for you. 

More than you showing your wife this thread why not she should join and reveal her experiences as to what went in her head at the time. Although keep in mind she rug swept a little so i'm apprehensive if it'll work.


----------



## dymo

I don't know if showing the thread is a good idea. Might reopen old wounds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Humble Pie

DailyGrind said:


> If I could only get past the angst sooner, though. I KNOW things are fine now. But also, I know I'm not over the trauma/drama. I feel there has been some rug sweeping. She doesn't know the true pain I felt. I don't think it helps to talk to her about it. I'm sure I just need time. It will come. I just can'mt wait for the anxiety to go completely away.
> 
> I plan on doing a new post to "newbies" soon...to try and condense my experience (so they don't need to read my entire epic post), and hopefully give them the wisdom of ACTING early, instead of waiting "to see.". If not for the stellar wisdom of this forum....who knows where I would be.
> 
> I've also thought about sharing my post with W.....though I know it would be embarrasing for her to read about my spying, anger, helplessness. What do you guys think?
> 
> Thanks for the continued support!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



What an awesome father's day suprise for you! 

I would not show her your thread or show her this site. Firstly, as someone said, dont rehash the subject. Another, you dont want her to feel your actions were lead by others advice! You want her to feel this transformation on how you handled the whole ordeal was entirely your thoughts!

Best of luck DG... but one thing, I am a gamer too, I am curious to know, what game(s) were you stuck on during your gaming days..lol...


----------



## DailyGrind

Call of Duty 3

Thanks for the advice. I think you are right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Showing her this thread just might destroy everything. Maybe in ten years. As far as forgeting the angst, I say angst is your friend. Don't get too comfortable.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I can see her thinking she got manipulated if you showed her this thread (which in a way she was, but it was all positive of course)


----------



## Almostrecovered

plus the dead cat jokes may upset her


----------



## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> plus the dead cat jokes may upset her


Not to mention she would probably start inexplicably dreaming of dancing turtles. :rofl:


----------



## OldWolf57

Well done DG Well done !! I like the idea you have of a shorter post of it all. there are new OP's that question exposure, VARs and keyloggers. Your journey could go a ways to help the regulars convince them otherwise. For Now God Bless You Guys.


----------



## dymo

OldWolf57 said:


> there are new OP's that question exposure, VARs and keyloggers.


I don't know.... DG's experience with spying is kind of a mixed bag. It helped him spot a potential EA, but his use of a VAR later backfired badly. Not because a VAR is a bad idea (it wasn't), but because spying (combined with the general paranoia that comes with reading too much CWI) really messed with his mind over time. Which is why in the end he stopped doing it. 



DailyGrind said:


> As to whether there was an EA that originated the two-year cold shoulder?? Well...no...I have nothing to prove that...and such, have dropped it (at least for now.) In my heart-of-hearts....I think SOMETHING happened. But, I think I would have to be extremely lucky to determine for sure.


Well, we may never know, as you said. However, as it was, there was lots that could have caused the cold shoulder without any need for an EA. Keep that in mind.

I'd like to make one other point. Maybe this will ease anxiety just a little.

You caught your wife's EA in it's embryonic stage, before she could even recognize it herself. It's not a foregone conclusion that it would have turned into a full-blown EA. What we see mostly on CWI is what happens when it does. If it doesn't, it's not as likely to make it to these forums. 

Luckily, you put a stop to it and never needed to find out. And I fully agree with that, as the potential for disaster was so great. But give her the benefit of a doubt when it comes to what might have been.


----------



## DailyGrind

dymo said:


> I don't know.... DG's experience with spying is kind of a mixed bag. It helped him spot a potential EA, but his use of a VAR later backfired badly. Not because a VAR is a bad idea (it wasn't), but because spying (combined with the general paranoia that comes with reading too much CWI) really messed with his mind over time. Which is why in the end he stopped doing it.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we may never know, as you said. However, as it was, there was lots that could have caused the cold shoulder without any need for an EA. Keep that in mind.
> 
> I'd like to make one other point. Maybe this will ease anxiety just a little.
> 
> You caught your wife's EA in it's embryonic stage, before she could even recognize it herself. It's not a foregone conclusion that it would have turned into a full-blown EA. What we see mostly on CWI is what happens when it does. If it doesn't, it's not as likely to make it to these forums.
> 
> Luckily, you put a stop to it and never needed to find out. And I fully agree with that, as the potential for disaster was so great. But give her the benefit of a doubt when it comes to what might have been.


Good points....Thanks!!


----------



## Almostrecovered

thought of you DG when I saw this


----------



## DailyGrind

Ha ha!!! Funny.

I guess a quick update.....things are good....though the sex has dwindled back down to negligable. Not necessarily due to her lack of interest....but, just like the beginning of our marriage...the "ailments" are creeping back in....."tired, headache, upset stomach, too late - have to get up early", etc. i've laid off initiating the last two weeks, to see if she would...nope. She is very loving, but just doesn't seem to need sex. Very LD. Although I'm not nearly as HD as I once was.....sigh. I know I need to re-man up and have a talk with her about it. I see myself falling back into the routine that drove me to the porn, in the first place.....too many times hearing "i'm tired".....and i just give up. I need to let her know how it affects me. Other than that, she has been VERY carring and loving. "other than that, Mrs. Lincoln...did you enjoy the show?". Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dymo

How's communication like between you two these days?

Earlier on in the thread, I speculated that the reason her sex drive had dwindled early in the marriage was accumulated resentment. Instead of voicing her complaints, she kept them in and let it build. She wasn't one to talk about things that were bothering her.

I doubt there's a way to instantly change that in a person. But maybe that should be one of your eventual goals. Making her feel safe and comfortable opening up to you, or even complaining about you. Even over the little things.


----------



## DailyGrind

dymo said:


> How's communication like between you two these days?
> 
> Earlier on in the thread, I speculated that the reason her sex drive had dwindled early in the marriage was accumulated resentment. Instead of voicing her complaints, she kept them in and let it build. She wasn't one to talk about things that were bothering her.
> 
> I doubt there's a way to instantly change that in a person. But maybe that should be one of your eventual goals. Making her feel safe and comfortable opening up to you, or even complaining about you. Even over the little things.


Thanks, Dymo. I think communication is much better...but I'm sure there is possibly something in your comments. I still am endeavoring to the berst husband/father I can be. I can't think of any complaint she might have with that regard. But there is always the possibility I've done something to bother her, and she isn't communicating it. It also is true she is very LD. She will "perform" if I push for it....but it simply doesn't replace being DESIRED (ie. initiating on her own.) She just simply may never be that way. Sad.


----------



## Acabado

There're people which are just LD. Nothing wrong itself, except it interferes with a goos marriage..
Hormonal issues? Has she ever investigated it?


----------



## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> Thanks, Dymo. I think communication is much better...but I'm sure there is possibly something in your comments. I still am endeavoring to the berst husband/father I can be. I can't think of any complaint she might have with that regard. But there is always the possibility I've done something to bother her, and she isn't communicating it. It also is true she is very LD. She will "perform" if I push for it....but it simply doesn't replace being DESIRED (ie. initiating on her own.) She just simply may never be that way. Sad.


DG,

Don't backslide. She may be unconsciously gauging to see if the changes you've made are permanent or temporary. Some women just aren't comfortable initiating sex. They may be LD or just sexually timid. That doesn't mean that over time things can't change. Keep up your end of things and continue to gently push for those changes. She may want to improve as well but needs to feel comfortable and in a stable relationship. Remember it wasn't that long ago that separation and divorce were almost hourly considerations. Good to hear that on balance things are still good though.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Thanks, Dymo. I think communication is much better...but I'm sure there is possibly something in your comments. I still am endeavoring to the berst husband/father I can be. I can't think of any complaint she might have with that regard. But there is always the possibility I've done something to bother her, and she isn't communicating it. It also is true she is very LD. She will "perform" if I push for it....but it simply doesn't replace being DESIRED (ie. initiating on her own.) She just simply may never be that way. Sad.


Lack of initiation doesn't equal lack of desire or enjoyment once things do get going. 

Maybe you could work out together.


----------



## lordmayhem

You may have to just resign yourself to living in a sexless marriage. She may be loving and caring, but not sharing the bond of physical intimacy means to me at least, she's not giving herself to you 100%. But if you can live in a sexless marriage, then good luck with that. Yes, its just sad. Sorry that you have to live like this.


----------



## Chaparral

OTH if you are holding back to see if she will initiate, she might think its you that is wanting to back off. Womencan read minds you know, just not as accurately as they think.


----------



## DailyGrind

True enough....deep communication still seems to elude us. We get along great. We've had more fun, the two of us, than I remember our whole marriage. We talk more freely of the future, and what we want it to be. But TODAY seems to be still not as much as it could be. Deep passion is still not part of our weekly routine. I just don't know how to bring it out....if it truly even exists. I want so much more...more together time, more frolicking, more dating, passion, playfulness....out time. She just seems content with the coming home, eating dinner, cuddle a bit, and going to bed. I want us to go out, have fun, come home and bond. She wants to settle in and go to sleep. I want to dance to live bands, and celebrate. She wants to put on comfy pj's and veg. We have to find a happy medium. But...if SHE compromises and goes out....she's tired by 10:00, and ready for bed (sleep.) I compromise and settle in.....she's ready for sleep by 9:00.  Either way...she's perfectly content taking the low road, and it doesn't involve intimacy. Crazy...I'M the one that is almost 50. She is almost 38....I'M the one that should be looking forward to my next bottle of Ensure.


----------



## Chaparral

Is she working out at all now?


----------



## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> Is she working out at all now?


Nope...she really has absolutely no interest in working out now. We've talked about working out together...but really haven't worked it into our schedule yet. Funny how last October/November she was so into it, she hired a trainer for a few sessions, and was able to get up at 5:00 AM to get to classes (of course...a couple were with OM)...but now...no interest at all. She keeps lamenting that she's gained about 7 lbs....and her clothes are tight....but still no motivation.

Now...that I've given up MY coming home and playing Call of Duty in the evenings....she comes home and plays angry birds a good part of the night.


----------



## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Nope...she really has absolutely no interest in working out now. We've talked about working out together...but really haven't worked it into our schedule yet. Funny how last October/November she was so into it, she hired a trainer for a few sessions, and was able to get up at 5:00 AM to get to classes (of course...a couple were with OM)...but now...no interest at all. She keeps lamenting that she's gained about 7 lbs....and her clothes are tight....but still no motivation.
> 
> Now...that I've given up MY coming home and playing Call of Duty in the evenings....she comes home and plays angry birds a good part of the night.


If its possible, get a routine of working out going with her. Its funny to me since I don't work in a office how tiring it seems to be. I think it must be the same inertia a couch potato has. The reason I ask is that exercising has the effect of giving me more energy rather than tiring me out.

I ask my wife if its running to the file cabinets thats so tiring or what. That usually raises her adrenalin a few points anyway! LOL

BTW I bought a recumbant bike from Walmart and its great. Many women find a bicycle seat uncomfortable and I like it because its easy to read on. I didn't want to buy an expensive one and find out it was a dust collector. It gives you your heart rate and has different "courses" you can ride.


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## DailyGrind

chapparal said:


> If its possible, get a routine of working out going with her. Its funny to me since I don't work in a office how tiring it seems to be. I think it must be the same inertia a couch potato has. The reason I ask is that exercising has the effect of giving me more energy rather than tiring me out.
> 
> I ask my wife if its running to the file cabinets thats so tiring or what. That usually raises her adrenalin a few points anyway! LOL
> 
> BTW I bought a recumbant bike from Walmart and its great. Many women find a bicycle seat uncomfortable and I like it because its easy to read on. I didn't want to buy an expensive one and find out it was a dust collector. It gives you your heart rate and has different "courses" you can ride.


Yeah...I hear ya...we had a nice stationary bicycle (I got from my parents), we just gave away....it gathered dust. I also have a universal workout gym in the garage...also gathering dust. I can't get motivated at home....I just HAVE to go to the gym, where everyone around me seems to instill more motivation. lol. Once Summer is over, and we have a more uniform schedule (instead of trying to get the kids covered for entertainment during their months off) we will try to get the workout routine going.


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## Humble Pie

DG, are you planning on having a sit down with the wife and talk about your needs/desires, you have clearly and really nicely explained what you want to us, do that with her.

I dont want to tempt you but since Call of Duty 3, they have came out with some really awesome Modern Warfare games if all else fails!! completely kidding!!


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## Chaparral

DailyGrind said:


> Yeah...I hear ya...we had a nice stationary bicycle (I got from my parents), we just gave away....it gathered dust. I also have a universal workout gym in the garage...also gathering dust. I can't get motivated at home....I just HAVE to go to the gym, where everyone around me seems to instill more motivation. lol. Once Summer is over, and we have a more uniform schedule (instead of trying to get the kids covered for entertainment during their months off) we will try to get the workout routine going.


Ha Ha girls alike biceps, chest and butts, not necessarily in that order, (so I have been told).

Maybe you should have a pair of dumbells by the bed instead of in the bed.:sleeping:


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## DailyGrind

Wow....she must be reading my posts! She came home from the grocery store yesterday, and announced that we ought to go to bed early as we haven't had any adult time lately. I swear my jaw was low enough for a couple dust bunnies to hop in. So.....we did! 

When I woke up this morning (she was already up), I was still in the mood....and considered jumping in the shower and "taking care of the need.". Then I thought..why not give it a go......walked down stairs, grabbed her hand and walked her back to our room. Locked the door, and tried our best to ignore the kids pounding on it from the other side. We got the deed done.....no thanks to the rug rats. . 9 & 6 yo's........really know how to interfere. Should have HEARD the commotion last night, when they realized we were showering together. I can't imagine what it will be like when they actually understand what is going on. How do you hide that? It is hard enough when they are clueless ...." mommy is just washing daddy's back.". 

As to Call of Duty.....i never got into those newer versions. I like CoD3 best. The newer ones are almost nauseating. CoD3 is realistic enough, while remaining just cartoonish enough. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tony55

Two important things to consider here, first, are you keeping the weight off, and second, what ever happened with your wife's birth control? I dated a girl once who was almost perfect, but a year into the relationship she started birth control for the first time (she was 25, I was 34) and a month later she turned into a stranger. I didn't make the pill connection at first, but by the time I had it narrowed down to that, our relationship was pretty much shot. The change in personality was shocking. I've had a lot of relationships, so I know how things can change, this wasn't anything in the normal spectrum.

To be on the safe side, if she's on birth control, find out what kind and research the side effects. 

Keep up the good work!

Oh, and stay in shape!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Tony,
This is gold. I have read SO MANY posts here where the woman goes of BC hormones of one type or other and it improves her desire/behavior. 

I was very lucky. My W always used a diaphragm because she gets migraines on occasion so the pill was not an option. 

For any man who is done making babies. Get a V and let your W get off the pill. 




Tony55 said:


> Two important things to consider here, first, are you keeping the weight off, and second, what ever happened with your wife's birth control? I dated a girl once who was almost perfect, but a year into the relationship she started birth control for the first time (she was 25, I was 34) and a month later she turned into a stranger. I didn't make the pill connection at first, but by the time I had it narrowed down to that, our relationship was pretty much shot. The change in personality was shocking. I've had a lot of relationships, so I know how things can change, this wasn't anything in the normal spectrum.
> 
> To be on the safe side, if she's on birth control, find out what kind and research the side effects.
> 
> Keep up the good work!
> 
> Oh, and stay in shape!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

Tony55 said:


> Two important things to consider here, first, are you keeping the weight off, and second, what ever happened with your wife's birth control? I dated a girl once who was almost perfect, but a year into the relationship she started birth control for the first time (she was 25, I was 34) and a month later she turned into a stranger. I didn't make the pill connection at first, but by the time I had it narrowed down to that, our relationship was pretty much shot. The change in personality was shocking. I've had a lot of relationships, so I know how things can change, this wasn't anything in the normal spectrum.
> 
> To be on the safe side, if she's on birth control, find out what kind and research the side effects.
> 
> Keep up the good work!
> 
> Oh, and stay in shape!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, Tony. Yes...I've pretty much kept off the weight...though I never did lose the additional 10 lbs (yet) that I wanted off. Right now hovering around 192. Wife and I have plans to begin a working out regimine, as soon as Summer (and the stress of keeping the kids occupied during their vacation) is off.

As to birth control....she did change hers to some kind of ring, that comes out every 30 days...mimicking the pills. She's always been on the pill, since I've known her...so no real change there. She doesn't want to go off...as without it, she gets VERY irregular, and cramps are too much for her to handle. With the pill....she has very light cycles. So, big V or not (for me) wouldn't change her mind to go off.


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## Tony55

I understand the reasons why your wife (or many woman in general) need to use "the pill" to control menstrual cycles, etc, etc, but you commented earlier in your posts that she had gotten a 5 year birth control procedure, and I'm wondering if it was THAT that had caused you/her so many issues. The fact that it was reaching its expiration might have been what was bringing her back to a somewhat normal state of mind. (I believe Chap commented that there might be a correlation). If it was me I would at least find out what the brand of the particular treatment was and do a little research into it. Example, here is a comment from a woman who used a 5 year implant called Mirena...

_"I had the Mirena placed about 8 weeks ago. The first week or two was great only got 1 mild headache and only very mild cramping. Those first couples of weeks my mood was great, my energy level was fantastic, I was sleeping better than I have in years. Now though I am getting worried about it. For the last week or so I have been having issues feeling like my heart is going crazy, it takes very little to get me to shaking. Even something as minor as having a debatable conversation will have me shaking. I also get dizzy easy. I have been having issues with temp changes effecting my breathing and my heart racing. I have moments of feeling like I'm in tunnel vision. I have terrible sleep problems (not going to sleep until 6 to7am). My energy level has bottomed out. I get mild headaches constantly. And a number of other things."_​
DG, eventually you will reach a point where you will want to know WHY she went from acting one way and then another. Maybe it was depression, maybe an EA, maybe 100 other things or maybe it was an implanted birth control device. She may not have had it in her to see the world the way she used to until that thing expired. Based on what you've written, your wife doesn't seem like a rotten person, she actually sounds like a nice person who's struggling (or was struggling) with something inside her that she doesn't understand.

You are doing a good job hanging in there with her and helping her through this, whatever it is or was.


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## DailyGrind

Tony55 said:


> I understand the reasons why your wife (or many woman in general) need to use "the pill" to control menstrual cycles, etc, etc, but you commented earlier in your posts that she had gotten a 5 year birth control procedure, and I'm wondering if it was THAT that had caused you/her so many issues. The fact that it was reaching its expiration might have been what was bringing her back to a somewhat normal state of mind. (I believe Chap commented that there might be a correlation). If it was me I would at least find out what the brand of the particular treatment was and do a little research into it. Example, here is a comment from a woman who used a 5 year implant called Mirena...
> 
> _"I had the Mirena placed about 8 weeks ago. The first week or two was great only got 1 mild headache and only very mild cramping. Those first couples of weeks my mood was great, my energy level was fantastic, I was sleeping better than I have in years. Now though I am getting worried about it. For the last week or so I have been having issues feeling like my heart is going crazy, it takes very little to get me to shaking. Even something as minor as having a debatable conversation will have me shaking. I also get dizzy easy. I have been having issues with temp changes effecting my breathing and my heart racing. I have moments of feeling like I'm in tunnel vision. I have terrible sleep problems (not going to sleep until 6 to7am). My energy level has bottomed out. I get mild headaches constantly. And a number of other things."_​
> DG, eventually you will reach a point where you will want to know WHY she went from acting one way and then another. Maybe it was depression, maybe an EA, maybe 100 other things or maybe it was an implanted birth control device. She may not have had it in her to see the world the way she used to until that thing expired. Based on what you've written, your wife doesn't seem like a rotten person, she actually sounds like a nice person who's struggling (or was struggling) with something inside her that she doesn't understand.
> 
> You are doing a good job hanging in there with her and helping her through this, whatever it is or was.


Great post, Tony...thanks! I actually, at one point WAS wondering about that implant. I guess I had forgotten about that concern. You are right, though. I already struggle with the WHY's. I will research this. You are also right...she is a wonderful woman......who scared the SH!T out of me, for a while there.


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## Affaircare

DailyGrind said:


> ...Then I thought..why not give it a go......walked down stairs, grabbed her hand and walked her back to our room. Locked the door, and tried our best to ignore the kids pounding on it from the other side. We got the deed done.....no thanks to the rug rats. . 9 & 6 yo's........really know how to interfere. Should have HEARD the commotion last night, when they realized we were showering together. I can't imagine what it will be like when they actually understand what is going on. How do you hide that? It is hard enough when they are clueless ...." mommy is just washing daddy's back.".


I can not speak for other parents, but having had seven kids I think I can reply with some authority LOL  Anyway, when the kids were about this age (earlier school-age) we purposefully set up times when they had the authority to "take care of themselves." It's sounds kind of confusing but here's what I mean. So first, we started to "train them" that if our bedroom door is closed and locked, that means parental private time. Likewise if we found their door closed (no locks) then we would recognize their privacy and knock. Saturday mornings they could get up ANY TIME THEY WANTED and make their own bowl of cereal and watch cartoons on TV until we choose to come out of our bedroom. We purposefully bought some cereals that were special to them (you know...Captain Crunch etc.) and we'd keep them up in a high cabinet, and Friday night we'd put them on the table so they could reach them. Thus...Saturday mornings were our adult oasis. 

Just do something similar for any other time you want to have some fairly regular, uninterrupted adult time (and it doesn't always have to be sex, either). Let the kids have something that's special to them--like "You can play this XYZ game for one hour, and mommy and I are going to have some time with each other!" Let them "make" or eat something they consider a treat or cool ... let them play something they can't usually play...and have a little bit of a "family rule" about it.


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## DailyGrind

Affaircare said:


> I can not speak for other parents, but having had seven kids I think I can reply with some authority LOL  Anyway, when the kids were about this age (earlier school-age) we purposefully set up times when they had the authority to "take care of themselves." It's sounds kind of confusing but here's what I mean. So first, we started to "train them" that if our bedroom door is closed and locked, that means parental private time. Likewise if we found their door closed (no locks) then we would recognize their privacy and knock. Saturday mornings they could get up ANY TIME THEY WANTED and make their own bowl of cereal and watch cartoons on TV until we choose to come out of our bedroom. We purposefully bought some cereals that were special to them (you know...Captain Crunch etc.) and we'd keep them up in a high cabinet, and Friday night we'd put them on the table so they could reach them. Thus...Saturday mornings were our adult oasis.
> 
> Just do something similar for any other time you want to have some fairly regular, uninterrupted adult time (and it doesn't always have to be sex, either). Let the kids have something that's special to them--like "You can play this XYZ game for one hour, and mommy and I are going to have some time with each other!" Let them "make" or eat something they consider a treat or cool ... let them play something they can't usually play...and have a little bit of a "family rule" about it.


Good advice. We are trying to introduce some regularity for "adult time" so it is already built into the schedule. Not great for sponteneity..but hey...better than getting interrupted. We finally have them understanding that a closed door means...KNOCK! As, even with the doors locked...a stiff breeze can blow them open. Most times....a quick sheet pull, and we are okay. But then.....there are those couple positions where there's NO amount of explaining to get us out of ..."WHAT ARE YOU DOING?" :rofl:


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## dymo

How was Disney? That was meant to be September, wasn't it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

dymo said:


> How was Disney? That was meant to be September, wasn't it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Disney was awesome, thanks! We went two weeks ago, for a full 9 days (6 full days of amusement park activity.) I estimate I did about 30-35 miles of hiking, cause I was the advance guy for the Fast Passes (meaning I ran ahead, got the Fast Pass..came back to them, and worked our way back to that ride. Every ride they did...I walked TWICE!!) 

But, we had a blast. W and I never found much alone time...but we had fun. We are still recovering from that trip. We are doing very well, now. Sex is still not nearly as frequent as it should be; but I dont' really think it has to do with a lack of willingness on her part. It is more life in the fast lane....and we don't have late night energy (after work/dinner/kids homework/kids snuggle-time/kids to bed/and then adult snuggle-time.) We DO make together time, nearly daily.

Short of it...I believe we are both MUCH happier than we've ever been. I guess ...the only thing that matters. And....it doesn't appear she was just using me to go to Disney. She's still here. 

Thanks for the check-in!


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