# I think...



## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

My husband is up to something. I met the woman today... very flirty, touched his arm several times, once held it there right in front of me. I shot her a dirty look. Some white lies have surfaced, he claims she is married, she wore no wedding ring. There was a story about her dad, to which he corrected her your father in law, and she agreed... it was obviously a slip. Then later while we were in line for dinner (we were at an event) he said "You talking about my butt back there" to which she giggled. I directly asked him about this later to which he had some weird twisted circled reasoning that it was a joke.... 
He has been keeping his phone on his person. 
No real facebook activity and due to an organization we both deal with, I have access to his email so there is not going to be anything there. 
I am being calm, patient and a friend did some prelimary research and it appears she is divorced.... hence the no wedding ring, but my husband has said she IS married... 
Irregardless interaction between these two was ackward on my husbands part, she didn't seem to care at all about me standing there and while "pretending" to be friendly with me, twiddled something on the desk that was my husbands personal item. I am at this point, because of all the other problems in my marriage just wanting the truth. I have been monitoring times and amount of text messages, he snuck in some this evening, but I cannot gain access to his phone, as he has kept it on his person all night, until just putting it on the charger. I am hoping to get a glimpse at it when he falls asleep although I am not sure I will be able to stay up that long. 
HELP! What else should I be watching for? I just want to the truth to come out this time, and so I am not even letting him know any of this, or that the interactions today bothered me. I continued as the 180 says to pretend nothing was wrong, went about my usual nightly things, with the exception of not being able to sleep yet..... ADVICE?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Well, the phone constantly glued to him is a red flag, of course. Lying about her marital status, I would consider to be one as well. How does he know this woman? Is it work related or something else? Right now, play it off as if it's nothing, but be observant. Keep track of the discrepancies in the stories.

As for the ring... that wouldn't necessarily be indicative of not being married. I know many couple who don't wear any jewelry... which includes a wedding ring. But, based on what you learned already, you know that your husband lied to you about her marital status. That wouldn't sit well with me, either.


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## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

livelaughlovenow said:


> My husband is up to something. I met the woman today... very flirty, touched his arm several times, once held it there right in front of me. I shot her a dirty look. Some white lies have surfaced, he claims she is married, she wore no wedding ring. There was a story about her dad, to which he corrected her your father in law, and she agreed... it was obviously a slip. Then later while we were in line for dinner (we were at an event) he said "You talking about my butt back there" to which she giggled. I directly asked him about this later to which he had some weird twisted circled reasoning that it was a joke....
> He has been keeping his phone on his person.
> No real facebook activity and due to an organization we both deal with, I have access to his email so there is not going to be anything there.
> I am being calm, patient and a friend did some prelimary research and it appears she is divorced.... hence the no wedding ring, but my husband has said she IS married...
> ...


I am pretty sure others can advice you more on investigating and being vigilant. 

If I were you, next time she touches your husband inappropriately like that again, just tell her politely but firmly that you do not appreciate that. Something along the line..."could you keep your hands to yourself". In front of your husband and others, just say it politely and in a calm manner. Shine the light on her inappropriate touches and makes others aware of it too. 

Next time you hear your husband crack the butt joke again, tell him that you don't appreciate that and you find it inappropriate, right then and there in front of others. If he thought that was okay, he wouldn't be embarrassed if others know what these two have been joking about right?


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Man, more tricks MY serial cheater husband used. Good thing I can't sleep due too the storm.

Time to go into investigative mode while laying boundaries.

First boundary, this woman must go. I don't know who she is but who cares - she gotta go. 

Next, play dumb and get a key logger and VAR and be patient.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Yup your on to something, does he ever back his phone up to his computer? There's a evidence gathering thread in this section it's long but worth it. You can also put a VAR under his car seat this would record any conversation with her by phone or in person. Good for you for doing the 180, read up on the cheaters script the gas lighting, blame shifting, and all that. Almostrecovered has these links in his profile.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

For the other posters:

In your other thread:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by livelaughlovenow View Post
> To double add to this, I have severe abandonment issues, deep seeded since childhood, and *so if he even shows the slightest interest in another woman as a "new" friend, I freak inside. **Currently this is happening, and he is back to placing his phone face down and keeping it with him, a habit he has developed after I snooped one time, and with reasonable suspicion....*


And you mention his disconnecting from you.

- How is your sex life, how often, and has it changed sometime in the past?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Listen carefully (and I have just read your other thread)

Everything you are thinking is ruled by fear
You're afraid of what you suspect and what you will find 

You 're husband is relying on that fact which means he knows you are going through the mincer _right this second_ which also tells you sadly _he respects you very very little_ - it's the slippery slope and you will now find he is already on it

Now there are two options 

1/ You keep going out of your mind and he keeps you on that bed of nails

2/ you do this 

"Hi darling we've spoken about her and you and you've dismissed it all so just to nail that finally I'd like you to hand over your phone to me this second and allow me time alone with it to go through every single message on there............Is that a problem?" 

When the gawping has stopped and if there's nothing to hide he'll hand it over in about ten seconds. Should he need to go with the phone anywhere for any reason the game will be up. Should he find any reason to not give you that phone instantly the game will again be up

You will find out within a minute where you stand in all of this 

If of course he loves and respects you he will happily hand it over and understand why you feel as you do 


..........On the other hand you could simply carry on walking on eggshells going crazy 

________


Btw on the final confrontation for me this is exactly what I did. On the other previous occasions / infidelities I went through the mincer. On the last one when I suspected I asked this question
She collapsed in a heap in ten seconds flat crying she was now in love with this latest one!! I didn't even need the phone !

Ask him for his phone, right up, there and then, don't be afraid


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

hmmmm well I looked thru his phone yesterday, there was nothing on it other than the usual... but I did notice in playing with it, there is a secret box he can send things to...

I wanted to add.... I am not sure that it is time yet to confront him. In the past, I get the riot act, why do you care if I am friends with a female, it's nothing, we're just friends, you are crazy, yada yada... And I am at the point where given the other things in our relationship he is a grown man, if he wants to make a decision against that, you are right it is completely disrespectful, but i want the truth... your suggestion will not get me the truth out of him, he is a very good liar. (Even tells people that).


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> For the other posters:
> 
> In your other thread:
> 
> ...


Yes it got way better, but then declined, and a friend asked me about this, he hasn't initiated or asked or anything in a couple weeks... which is odd. Any other time, he initiates if I do not. (Although about a week ago, I did offer, because I was concerned with my back and my back had actually felt good that day... he did take me up on the offer, but it was quick, and actually seemed like he had some troubles).


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Well, your husband is just a huge walking ball of red flags, isn't he? I'm so sorry about that.

I, too, was the "crazy" wife. The one with "issues" of "irrational jealousy". The one with "some childhood thing" that made me anxious and depressed and "paranoid" any time my husband even made friends with another woman. I spent years and years believing I was unstable because I could not get over being uncomfortable with my husband's flirting, the too-intimate-for-casual-friends body language between him and coworkers or friends, the little "inside jokes" he shared with other women, him having friends I'd never met and hobbies that excluded me, the odd devotion to his phone, etc. 

The thing is, though, that I wasn't crazy. My husband was a serial cheater and basically conducted himself like a single man on the prowl whenever he was out of my sight for the duration of our marriage. I was jealous and paranoid he was cheating on me - _because he was_. It wasn't irrational, it was _factual_. Now that I don't live daily with a dozen tiny betrayals, I'm no longer depressed or anxious. The "crazy" went away when he did. My instability stopped when routine blame-shifting and gaslighting by someone who professed to love me stopped.

So, don't be complicit in your own betrayal. If your husband's behavior feels wrong to you, find out why. You might be overly sensitive to threats from other women. But, then again, he might be a cheating @sshat. You need to find out. Just don't assume that everything you sense about your own marriage must the a product of your imagination because you have "issues" - particularly if your husband is the one pushing the "you're just being crazy" cart for you. Intuition is a good thing. It's there to keep you safe. Is your husband also keeping you safe? Or is he using your weaknesses against you for his own benefit?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

livelaughlovenow said:


> hmmmm well I looked thru his phone yesterday, there was nothing on it other than the usual... but I did notice in playing with it, there is a secret box he can send things to...
> 
> I wanted to add.... I am not sure that it is time yet to confront him. In the past, I get the riot act, why do you care if I am friends with a female, it's nothing, we're just friends, you are crazy, yada yada... And I am at the point where given the other things in our relationship he is a grown man, if he wants to make a decision against that, you are right it is completely disrespectful, but i want the truth... your suggestion will not get me the truth out of him, he is a very good liar. (Even tells people that).


Fair play maybe he feels threatened and expected it . Doesn't matter though he will make a mistake they all do 
Follow up the secret box too

Nobody is a good liar - it's the person on the receiving end though who is the good acceptor of lies.

It's easy to lie to somebody that wants to believe everything. Once that changes every liar gets caught out.
Face it, when you haven't given anything he said a second thought you forgot all about it

That's all changing, you're going to start noticing discrepancies much more and he will start to feel pressure because he'll notice you not accepting everything as you always have

Be vigilant, if you can bear it just wait. 

Again though you wonder why somebody you love and who apparently loves you would in any way want you to go through this shvt


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## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

I think there are red flags. I would not want her touching him in that way. Had a co-worker of my husbands always hugging him when she saw him. At first I did not think much of it, then I noticed she lingered a little too long and she could care less if I was there or not. One day I let her hug him and when she kept her arm draped around his shoulder, I reached over moved her arm and said, would you back up off my husband and glared at her. He was mortified but she never hugged nor touched him in front of me again. 

I would wait and watch, start investigating to see what you can find. I would be suspicious if it were me.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Hi. Im resident VAR Goon so here you go. Usually we get cheating wives here but I wont discriminate against busting a cheating husband. Many here will vouch for my knowledge on VARS. Just change the sex if it reads backwards. THis is a copy paste.

VARs

Buy 2 sony ICDPX312 voice activated recorders. Best Buy sells them for like 50 bucks. DO NOT BUY THE cheapies. USE LITHIUM batteries. We have examples of 25 hour recordings using them on these sony recorders. Set bit rate to 44K or higher and sensitivity to very high or better Turn off the beep feature. Its on one of the menus.

Go to Walmart and buy heavy duty velcro.

Use the velcro to attach the var under her seat UP INSIDE. SECURE IT WELL!!!!!! So well even a big bump wont knock it off.

Put the second in whatever room he uses to talk in when you are not around.

Usual warning. If you hear another woman get in the car STOP Listening and have a trusted friend tell you what went on. Knowing she is a cheat will kill you. Hearing sex will murder you to your very soul!!!!!! You are not strong enough to hear that. Dont try it. I know what I am talking about in this.

Play dumb wife for a bit. Dont drive her further underground! NO MORE CONFRONTS!! NEVER give up you get your intel from the VAR. You always got it from a PI or someone saw them.

If you need clean up the recordings get Audacity. Its free from the internet. I have used it on var work for others here to remove things like engine noise. If needed, I have done var work for three men here. RDMU is the only one who has released some of the confidentiality. Read his second thread for my reliability and confidentiality.

The ezoom GPS has been found to be easy to buy at Radio shack and useful.

Look for a burner phone. That is often why wives let the husband "see their phone"

Look for apps on her phone like words with friends. It has a non traceable texting feature.

Look for a new email.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Random thoughts....

He knows your suspicious. Your body language likely has him on full alert right now. If he's in a full blown affair, it's going underground for awhile... 

You have to disarm him, adopt the 'bubbly sponge' character. Try to be bubbly and upbeat, appear to pay little to no attention to anything... Think 'airhead'. Be short, smile a lot and don't show any real interest in anything but the day to day. All the while, absorb. Watch but never react. Listen but never engage. Pay attention to everything but never directly. Push down all emotion, put it in a little box deep down inside you. From time to time when your alone... SCREAM at the top of your lungs if you need to, punch a tree, kick the cat (joking)... Whatever, let the pressure out privately and get back into character...

Read the evidence gathering thread, use any tool in that tool bag that's available to you... (read the VAR advice above, I alos recommend it highly) Do it patiently, do it quietly. 

People who cheat are inherently sloppy, he will slip. 

Do not engage and for god's sake DO NOT spring the trap the moment you have what you feel is proof. He's a 'pro' you will be gas lighted and he will have an excuse, and you will want to buy it... and you will force them right back into their hole. Next time they will be even more careful.

Something is amiss. Calm down, get into character.


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Random thoughts....
> 
> He knows your suspicious. Your body language likely has him on full alert right now. If he's in a full blown affair, it's going underground for awhile...
> 
> ...


This is what i am doing... I did this last night even after all that mess last night. I still played a video game with him, said goodnight, etc.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Iivelaughlovenow...well I did a search on your threads and read through them...sometimes it helps me understand wher a person is coming from. If you go back through your threads and read them I think you will notice what I did....you are chasing him...your trying to make him fall in love with you again....your pursuing him.... Don't get hurt but your soundibg more and more desperate with each post. You say its time for 180 in one but also talk about gattinv him to love again. I know your hurting ....but desperate isn't appealing you have to hide it and put that confident self assured front back on even if its a fake front. Men generally (not always - mine would be one of the exceptions) like to be the pursuers ...they like to chase us... they usually like the challenge. I would recommend tye 180...focus on you...start doing things for yoursel to improve you....show him what he is missing....just my thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

I wish I had the nerve to use a VAR in his car. Just too scared I would get caught putting it in or getting it out. We can see our vehicles out the front window. I could probably do it when he is in the shower, but just too chicken


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

mineforever said:


> Iivelaughlovenow...well I did a search on your threads and read through them...sometimes it helps me understand wher a person is coming from. If you go back through your threads and read them I think you will notice what I did....you are chasing him...your trying to make him fall in love with you again....your pursuing him.... Don't get hurt but your soundibg more and more desperate with each post. You say its time for 180 in one but also talk about gattinv him to love again. I know your hurting ....but desperate isn't appealing you have to hide it and put that confident self assured front back on even if its a fake front. Men generally (not always - mine would be one of the exceptions) like to be the pursuers ...they like to chase us... they usually like the challenge. I would recommend tye 180...focus on you...start doing things for yoursel to improve you....show him what he is missing....just my thoughts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You described exactly how I feel, only this time more numb to it... which is why I am sort of done. I just am going to be pleasant and let the cards fall where they may. I have tried too long to figure him out but at the same time, I'll be damned if he is going to have his cake and eat it too.... I've been thinking about our entire marriage situation all day... stuck at home today with a sick kid... so.... been trying to figure it out. Not even sure the 180 will work... I don't see how I can completely do that without misleading him. I want him to know his behavior will not be tolerated and at the same time don't want my kids to suffer... you are right I am hurt. Completely because as others have said what I had only thought to myself, his actions are disrespectful.... shows he really doesn't care. He has no fear of me leaving him, he thinks I will be here forever. I feel like he needs a wake up call. I just don't know how to do that, a 180 is not going to accomplish that, just going to let him think things are fine and dandy, while I drive myself nuts trying to get evidence? I'm so confused right now. I have been trying to obtain proof of this woman's divorce all day, and cannot find it, short of going to the courthouse but then I don't think they will give it to me, our state has some pretty tough laws.


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

*Re: I think... QUESTIONS ADDED*

Ok so re-read 180... I have only been doing parts of it... and not very consistently. I have backed off of saying I love you first... 
But the one time I didn't say it back before bed, he flipped out, what no i love you? I just pretended not to hear him and went to bed, and I heard him slamming things around.... doesn't this part make things worse? Because then the "fence sitter" which is I guess where my husband is at the moment... given everything... (For those of you who have read all my posts, please tell me if you disagree). I think he is unsure what he wants, or again he thinks there is no fear in losing me so he can do as he pleases, without considering my feelings? 
Anyway, so for those who did this? I know it is for a betrayed spouse, well mine has lied, some little lies lately that I think are a form of betrayal, but I have no proof and probably will not obtain it... let me add my dh does not work. We had an arrangement for him to be with the kids. I am going to encourage him to seek employement... well that was my plan. Should I? 
I am so confused on how to implement this the right way given my situation.... not saying I love you, I feel is just pushing him in the opposite direction.... or does it not? Anyone been in my situation (Sort of) that has done this with success?


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Girl...Really! Your hubby doesn't work and you don'realize you have the biggest bargaining chip of all in your corner. Ugh! That was mine...I make 75 percent of our income..sorry probably going to get blasted for saying this by a lot of men. Girl tell him to get his act together or pack his bags.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

The 180 makes him mad? Good!

At least he's showing some emotion about you, right? 

I hope you get my meaning.

Keep it up, be serious about it. It works.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

The 180 is the prelude to separation and divorce. You tell him that you are bothered by this female friend. He needs to cut her out of his life. If he says no, you start the 180 immediately.

He tells you are acting crazy, she is "just a friend", you stay the course with your 180.

He tells you it isn't possible. They share business or social circles. You stay the course with your 180.

When, and only when he says fine. I love you, I will do this if that is what it takes to prove to you that I love you and only you then follow through and cuts her out of his life. That is the only time you stop the 180. 

It sounds like the issue you are having with the 180 is you are not tying it to any specific, observable behavior changes. Figure out what it is you want him to do. Gut check it to make sure that seems reasonable. Use this forum as a sounding board, or a close friend or family member that you trust. Then the 180 comes more naturally. You give him a specific request that you need in order to remain married to him. He either complies, or you 180. Then when you don't say "I love you", he knows exactly why.


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

doubletrouble said:


> The 180 makes him mad? Good!
> 
> At least he's showing some emotion about you, right?
> 
> ...


I understand it is supposed to get a point across, but does it push someone away? I guess is what I was asking.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

The 180 is for you to heal and move on. Its not for anyone else or made to get anyone back or push them away. 

Do the 180 for you. Period. 

I'm sorry you are still in this spot but you can change this by changing yourself. You will find you don't need his disrespectful @ss and deserve better.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

He doesn't work? Who is this chick hanging on him? 

I think most everyone can relate to your experience of noticing when another person is crossing "space" boundaries. I once went to visit spouse at work and this female co-worker didn't see me standing next in front of him, (I'm 5ft) and she totally was way too familiar with him and I could even tell by his stiffness and "formal" body language that he was like..."oh crud, wife here wife here...siren siren"--- and once she noticed me became formal. Hope that makes sense.... fast forward 6 years and he finally admitted in MC that he had always fancied her and they gossiped a lot at work but nothing ever came of it but it sure ticked me off. 

There is something to be said about gut feelings and body language and how you pick up on those subtle (ant not so subtle) behaviors. 

You have to be smart in your investigation. I know it's hard to want to bust them right when you find that smoking gun but you really need to be diabolical about it. If there is a weak link in your evidence he will gaslight and have you convinced it's all in your head. 

No Job? 

Possible cheating? 

Hiding phone and secret inboxes? 

Familiar/comfortable and intimate body language behavior with "friend"

Lots of little lies?? 

What part of this man drama=a keeper?


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

It's scary to uncover the truth, but you can play his game and say don't know what that is, if he finds the VAR. if you can buy it with cash so he can't pin it on you. I don't usually advice this but since he's makes you feel like your crazy it would only give him ammunition. Here what I have seen the women who think and are told by thier husbands they're crazy are not. I been told that myself and I was spot on. The really crazy ones who are paranoid for everything don't realize they have a problem. Crazy people don't know their crazy in this situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

*Re: I think... QUESTIONS ADDED*



livelaughlovenow said:


> Ok so re-read 180... I have only been doing parts of it... and not very consistently. I have backed off of saying I love you first...
> But the one time I didn't say it back before bed, he flipped out, what no i love you? I just pretended not to hear him and went to bed, and I heard him slamming things around.... doesn't this part make things worse? Because then the "fence sitter" which is I guess where my husband is at the moment... given everything... (For those of you who have read all my posts, please tell me if you disagree). I think he is unsure what he wants, or again he thinks there is no fear in losing me so he can do as he pleases, without considering my feelings?
> Anyway, so for those who did this? I know it is for a betrayed spouse, well mine has lied, some little lies lately that I think are a form of betrayal, but I have no proof and probably will not obtain it... let me add my dh does not work. We had an arrangement for him to be with the kids. I am going to encourage him to seek employement... well that was my plan. Should I?
> I am so confused on how to implement this the right way given my situation.... not saying I love you, I feel is just pushing him in the opposite direction.... or does it not? Anyone been in my situation (Sort of) that has done this with success?


He sounds like the type of person who wants to have his cake and eat it too. Also, he wants to play the flirty games and will not allow you to.

I suggest some night leave a note for him and say you're out with frinds and will be back late. Tell him not to wait up... you'll check in if you'll be home after 1AM... If he bombards you with texts, just reply you're having a few drinks with "friends" and if he demands to know what friends, just reply again with "just some friends and not to worry about it"... and see how he takes it.

And, continue with those VAR's- one or two in the house and one in his car.


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