# Did he lie and does it matter?



## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Help! I need some perspective...

I have been laboring over something the OW said when I contacted her pretending to be my H to find out the extent of what happened.

She was saying about an instance where she made a pass at him. He has told me they were hugging and she went in for a kiss but he told her no. He made it clear he did not want that and shortly after, left where they were to get some distance.

Posing as my H, I asked how she felt after "I" left. Her reply? 

She "realized then that wow, you actually really did like me butclearly isn't a **** because you looked really scared."

Now, tell me. Am I crazy to read that as he did something to indicate he liked her (ie reciprocated the kiss?) Because it doesn't make sense otherwise does it, why would she be left thinking he "really" liked her if as he says, he told her to get lost?

He says he has no idea why she'd say that and agrees it doesn't make sense but has nothing else to say about why she would think that.

Secondly, I can't work out how much this matters. I keep swinging from "forget about it, it won't change anything" to "he could have perpetuated a lie to manipulate the truth when we agreed to be totally open." At this point, I could easily believe he did kiss her back. I think I kinda told myself that *was* what happened anywat. But what would *really* hurt is if he'd carried on that lie.

Advice for resolution please!
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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

It matters because he obviously is still lying to you when he should be an oPen book to you now.
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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

It's our new reality, we never know what is true or not... we just have to decide what really matters. 

~sammy


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

This is really playing on my mind now, I can't sleep.

We talked some more about it. He told me he said to her that if he "wasn't with me" then he'd be interested. Ouch. Said maybe it was that. Apparently he didn't let her down as clearly as I thought, I thought he told her to get lost but says he wasn't nasty as he "didn't want to hurt her feelings." 

Still swears he absolutely did not reciprocate, and as he left said she was trying to get him to arrange a date. Said he was confused, seems he'd met her at work and commented to me that he'd noticed she was all dressed up, make up on, and was like, what's going on?

I didn't know this. And when he told me that, I was like, woah. OK. Now I *know* my H isn't stupid. In any other situation he would have got rightaway that a woman was trying to impress him. It doesn't fly for a second that he didn't get what was going on.

Another thing... He mentioned stuff she'd said in conversation. Now, he's spent the last three months saying he can barely remember the pertinent stuff they talked about, yet can come up with inane details of mundane conversations. Right. He keeps saying stuff like, "when I said whatever it was I said" to tell her he wasn't interested, and "let her down gently by saying the things I said" but won't actually say what he said. He's playing dumb. 

I'm so fed up of this. My heart is aching. It might seem like nothing to some but it's driving me crazy. He was there, he knows what was said with that particular incident. I just don't think she's that deranged that he'd brush her off and she'd be left thinking he was really interested!

I need some sleep :-(
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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> This is really playing on my mind now, I can't sleep.
> 
> We talked some more about it. He told me he said to her that if he "wasn't with me" then he'd be interested. Ouch. Said maybe it was that. Apparently he didn't let her down as clearly as I thought, I thought he told her to get lost but says he wasn't nasty as he "didn't want to hurt her feelings."
> 
> ...


Walking,

This would bother the hell out of me as well...

I think the main point here is: Your husband is being less than cooperative and seems to be still lying to you.

If I had to guess..I would say they kissed. His changing story and the inconsistencies all add up..either way it really doesn't matter in the big picture. 

If he wants to move forward with healing the relationship, he's gonna have to come clean or you're going to have to accept that some details may never be known by you.


Sounds like he is so twisted inside the lies he's spun that he can't tell the difference between: what he's told you, what really happened, what he's told himself, what he's told the OW, what he's told friends.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Geoffrey Marsh said:


> Walking,
> 
> This would bother the hell out of me as well...
> 
> ...


Your last paragraph = my opinion too. At a guess I would say he walked into that thinking, wow this is pretty exciting. I don't think he was there with the prior intention of anything happening. They talked, she hugged him and kissed him. In the messages I got from the OW about that instance, she said "we hugged and I gave you a small kiss." Thus she instigated it. He has referred to it in chat as he "kissed her" but says thats just words and it was her that did it.

He is now frustrated as he says still he has no idea why she would think that and has nothing else he can tell me to fill in the gap. I am still filtering through my logic AND emotional feelings but am not going to be rash in what I say whilst I feel rather emotional about it.

Thinking about it, it also doesn't make sense because she spread it around their co-workers whilst he kept it quiet. But then by that, wasn't she spreading around that he'd turned her down? Doesn't make sense. Also my H's co-worker going to the OW back then, saying he "knew what happened" and did she want my H's cell number? That doesn't make sense, why would the co-worker think she'd want my H's number when he'd turned her down?


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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

That doesn't make sense, why would the co-worker think she'd want my H's number when he'd turned her down?

Because he didn't turn her down.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Geoffrey Marsh said:


> That doesn't make sense, why would the co-worker think she'd want my H's number when he'd turned her down?
> 
> Because he didn't turn her down.


Yeah. The co-worker said to her that he'd "heard what happened" and asked if she wanted his number. It doesn't make sense does it? My H said he didn't tell anybody about what happened but when he went back to work the next day, in her department, everyone knew. Like I say, knew what, that she'd embarrassed herself by making a pass at him that he turned down: that's not the kind of thing you spread round is it?

I don't know what to do. That bit of what happened, he has always said he didn't reciprocate. She says she "gave him" a small kiss. So I can assume it wasn't a long passionate kiss. So OK, I can deal with that. But from there either a) she is deluded and read more into what happened than was there (which is what he's saying) or b) he did something to make her think he was *really* interested in her. Whether it be the kiss or something he said that he's not telling me.

We are at an impasse. I am trying to be calm and rational but this is really bothering me. And the more it goes on, the more I realize it is more about the fact he could be lying than what he may have done. Does that make sense?

Where I am now, I see a few options:

1. He continues to say there is nothing else, I choose to accept it but am left with the doubt as we move on together.
2. He continues to say there is nothing else, I choose to accept it and believe him as we move on together.
3. He continues to say there is nothing else, I choose *not* to accept it and leave him.
4. He continues to say there is nothing else, I choose *not* to believe him and go and ask the OW. (Yes this is a risky option but an option nonetheless.)
5. He tells me something that makes the above make sense, I thank him for his honesty and we move on together.
6. He tells me something that makes the above make sense, I decide I can't live with the fact he continued to lie after our deal on complete transparency and honesty and I leave.

It is very hard around the family. We are so busy at the moment, and outside work a lot of it is us together with other people, be it family or friends. Just from the last two days, it is *really* difficult to retain some semblance of normalty. I am not one to easily hide I am upset but I don't want to be explaining to people what's going on right now.

I don't know what to do if he continues to say there was nothing. I don't want to be so pig-headed than to consider he *may* be telling the truth. But right now I have serious doubt and I don't have it in me to just trust him with this. What do I do? Leave it and give it time, mull it over? Bring it up with him with some well-chosen words? Give him an ultimatum (quite extreme)? I really am floundering.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

walkingwounded said:


> Yeah. The co-worker said to her that he'd "heard what happened" and asked if she wanted his number. It doesn't make sense does it? My H said he didn't tell anybody about what happened but when he went back to work the next day, in her department, everyone knew. Like I say, knew what, that she'd embarrassed herself by making a pass at him that he turned down: that's not the kind of thing you spread round is it?
> 
> I don't know what to do. That bit of what happened, he has always said he didn't reciprocate. She says she "gave him" a small kiss. So I can assume it wasn't a long passionate kiss. So OK, I can deal with that. But from there either a) she is deluded and read more into what happened than was there (which is what he's saying) or b) he did something to make her think he was *really* interested in her. Whether it be the kiss or something he said that he's not telling me.
> 
> ...


You keep coming back to the fact that this doesn't sit well with you. You have at least 3 or 4 posts that things don't add up and it bothers you. It must be hell for both of you. You wishing he would just spill it and be done with it so you can accept and move on (or give up and quit), and him wishing you would just get over it already.
His story doesn't make sense. That's why it bugs you. I also sense that you are more upset by the emotional betrayal (the secrecy, the embarrassment that he showed her and others that he 'chose' her over you even momentarily rather than the act of kissing. He senses that, so he tries to cover to soften the blow and all it does is make you more distrustful. When maybe the full truth, regardless how painful may be what you need to set yourself free?
Did you ever consider that you may be one of those people who are unable to get past infidelity? That once someone crosses that line, you can't recover?
I also get the feeling your H doesn't get how much he hurt you. That you keep trying to show him over and over and until he gets it, you can't heal. Now he's at the, 'it was just a kiss, get over it already' stage and you're at, 'this made me question every positive thing I ever felt about me and us' stage. I think he shook everything good you felt about you, your marriage and life. 
For him it was a kiss, for you it was life as you know it.
Until he gets it, you'll always be picking the scab and never healing.
The stuff you're bothered about - the details are honestly so minute that I can't even see a difference from what he told you and what you wonder what happened. Honest - if he stood by the water cooler or the plant - who gives a sh!t. I don't think that's your true issue either. He shook your core being and doesn't get it. And you can't express that, so you're geTtting caught up in these fine details that won't make you feel better. And on and on it will go untilhe either gets it or you give up.
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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

golfergirl said:


> You keep coming back to the fact that this doesn't sit well with you. You have at least 3 or 4 posts that things don't add up and it bothers you. It must be hell for both of you. You wishing he would just spill it and be done with it so you can accept and move on (or give up and quit), and him wishing you would just get over it already.
> His story doesn't make sense. That's why it bugs you. I also sense that you are more upset by the emotional betrayal (the secrecy, the embarrassment that he showed her and others that he 'chose' her over you even momentarily rather than the act of kissing. He senses that, so he tries to cover to soften the blow and all it does is make you more distrustful. When maybe the full truth, regardless how painful may be what you need to set yourself free?
> Did you ever consider that you may be one of those people who are unable to get past infidelity? That once someone crosses that line, you can't recover?
> I also get the feeling your H doesn't get how much he hurt you. That you keep trying to show him over and over and until he gets it, you can't heal. Now he's at the, 'it was just a kiss, get over it already' stage and you're at, 'this made me question every positive thing I ever felt about me and us' stage. I think he shook everything good you felt about you, your marriage and life.
> ...


golfergirl

Thanks. I appreciate your direct words and how tactful you were with them.

I am going to reread and go off and think about a lot of what you said.

I'd like to add: this particular thing, its importance to me, is because he was always adamant that he never wanted to get to a physical level at all. That he never responded to her trying to move it on and supposedly actively outlined this to her. That for him it was him enjoying the flirtation and no intention of it being anything else. So for him to firstly tell her that if he wasn't with me then he'd be interested, that hurts me. And to think he kissed her back, that means he lied all along and all those words he said about not wanting more, he liked her but wasn't interested in anything more, well he would have been lying.

I realize I am starting to obsess = not healthy. I need perspective. Am going off to think.
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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

walkingwounded said:


> golfergirl
> 
> Thanks. I appreciate your direct words and how tactful you were with them.
> 
> ...


Of course you're obsessing. He refuses to do the one thing you need - being honest. The imagination is killing you. And I bet your images are worse than the truth.
Wouldn't you rather know, 'our marriage was in a (dark, boring, stagnant - whatever) place and temporarily I was tempted with ______. When things got too close I realized I didn't want to give out our family for a cheap thrill and stopped it'. He's not telling what was wrong so you guys can't work on it therefore leaving you terrified it can happen again. He's making you more fearful and helpless by trying to protect you and himself. Take care. I'm glad my words help. You sound in such pain 
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## cowgirl70 (Aug 10, 2011)

Of course it matters if he lied. @eople will say but it was just A kiss but in your heart it is so much more. If he kissed her and admits it gives you the truth are you going to believe him now. At this point you have no Clue what is truth. I know exactly how you feel. Worst case, he kissed her. I myself have struggled with the why it happened. But think about what you really want. Do you want to stay with him. HE mesSed up and it killS inside. A heArt can really break you know. Mine broke into A million little pieces, If you love him talk to him, be calm and sincere tell him you love him but need the truth for your own piece of mind and recovery. Here I am telling you and I mySelf don't know for sure what iS truth. You sound like you reAlly love him and kiss or no kiss what happened To get to that point. Deep down I think he is trying to sPare your feelings and not hurt you any more. That in my book sAys he loves you but going through this myself can see why. You feel the way you do. You need to get to the bottom of it and bot make hiS mistake a life sentence. Sorry for rambling on,this just hits pretty Close to home. Don't know if ill ever know the truth but I knoW I lovE my H. I am willing to work on moving forward as long as no mistakes arE made again. I don't trust him 100% and have my gaurd up but the good days are definitely out weighing the bad. Keep your chin up.
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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Yes I know he truly does love me. In fact he feels more now than ever. He keeps saying he wishes he could take my pain away and it kills him knowing it's because of him every time I get upset over ut.

Part of it is that otherwise, R was going well. We were both engaging with stuff from MC and using it as a way to build things up. We are both changing and evolving. Who "he" was only those few months ago is markedly dufferent to "him" now, and he feels ashamed and embarrassed like he can't reconcile thexfact that the person who did those things *was* him. He says everything he's said and done since was to protect me. Very noble, but as I read on another thread in here the other day, really he's protecting him.

We are due to talk later. After time to think and the support of you guys, I feel calm. I have thought through what to say and possible outcomes and how I feel I want to move forward. I feel centred and not so anxious as usual, I'm on a more rational and logical plane: which can only be a good thing.
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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Last night he asked if I was so upset because "my womanly pride had been dented." Hell yeah! I was very good at biting my lip because that *really* got to me.

We talked. It went badly. He has nothing else to say about why the OW would think he really liked her after he turned her down. He said "maybe" (theres a LOT of maybes here) he was flippant when it came to othrr people's vomments. His example: someone asking if he wanted her number, he said something like, whatever, not no or not interested.

No idea what to do now. Thinking a lot. Feel quite down at the mo and need some space really badly.
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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> Last night he asked if I was so upset because "my womanly pride had been dented."
> 
> No idea what to do now. Thinking a lot. Feel quite down at the mo and need some space really badly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


walking, 

*About his comment:* Sounds like he was just lashing out, I wouldn't take it to hard...this is part of the "ebb and flow" of recovery. He will say things he doesn't mean and so will you.

*About his actions concerning the OW number:* Looks like he's holding the "full truth" back here...maybe to spare your feelings and maybe because he's really ashamed..or maybe because he really doesn't remember. Either way...I think you two have hit a stalemate here...leave it alone for a bit...come back to it later.

*what to do now:* More of the same...wake up, breath deep and hold on tight. You are in recovery and things are just gonna be screwy for awhile....good days...bad days. The little victories are what matter right now...inch by inch. All things considered, you guys aren't doing that bad....really. Hang in there.


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## useable (Aug 31, 2011)

tacoma said:


> It matters because he obviously is still lying to you when he should be an oPen book to you now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i agree


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

I wish I could just give you a hug, crack you a beer and just let you vent everything! I get the feeling he's downplaying everything and making you feel bad for not being over it. He needs patience with you. I think if he gave you the open book you wanted, you could get over it. ((((hug))))
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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

golfergirl said:


> Of course you're obsessing. He refuses to do the one thing you need - being honest. The imagination is killing you. And I bet your images are worse than the truth.
> Wouldn't you rather know, 'our marriage was in a (dark, boring, stagnant - whatever) place and temporarily I was tempted with ______. When things got too close I realized I didn't want to give out our family for a cheap thrill and stopped it'. He's not telling what was wrong so you guys can't work on it therefore leaving you terrified it can happen again. He's making you more fearful and helpless by trying to protect you and himself. Take care. I'm glad my words help. You sound in such pain


This, I agree with. He's afraid of being totally open, because he somehow feels like admitting that he "halfway went with it" will be too detrimental, and now on top of the lies of ommision will be even more hurtful.

She kissed him; he reciprocated, then stopped himself and her. So she feels/knows "he liked her", but also realizes he stopped himself. Simple enough.

Him lying about it? Complicates everything by a lot. And he doesn't even totally realize it ... yet.

Truthfully I feel like he needs a way out and IF there's a way for you to give it to him, -- where he can start over, understand why this is so very critical to you and your R process, perhaps your marriage, then he just may take it... not sure what that exactly is. 

I feel for you and the mental torture it all bring about. To this day my wife can't tell me (seemingly can't remember exactly, because it was 2 yrs ago)when the first kiss actually happened...before I was in the hospital in a city 1,000 miles away, during, or after I got out (a week before xmas, which was a wek before we went to OM's house for new years eve....)... unreal, "these WS people"!!


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## cowgirl70 (Aug 10, 2011)

I truely think he is trying to spare you more hurt. He has to be ashamed of himself. I,m thinking they did share a kiss and he is trying to put it in the past. I know this doesn't help your R but have you thought that maybe she is reading more into it. If he wanted her number he would have gotten it. But I think you need to focus on the why it got to the point if a kiss but him stopping at that says volumes in my book that he does love you and didn't want her otherwise it would have went a lot farther than kissing. Be thankful he didn't want more. And didnt go back for more.
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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

2xloser said:


> This, I agree with. He's afraid of being totally open, because he somehow feels like admitting that he "halfway went with it" will be too detrimental, and now on top of the lies of ommision will be even more hurtful.
> 
> She kissed him; he reciprocated, then stopped himself and her. So she feels/knows "he liked her", but also realizes he stopped himself. Simple enough.
> 
> ...


I think you are so on the money here, 2x. You have outlined exactly what I think in your first two paragraphs. And cowgirl, I know he is ashamed. I think he is desperately scared that I am just going to decide I have had enough, and am judging what he's like now against him then when he did this. Who he is now is the new improved version. And he doesn't want to be judged on who he was then because he doesn't like that person. So I think he is downplaying.

We talked again earlier and seem to have reached some even ground. It's not resolved exactly. Where I am now, I can't see that he will "give" on anything. He has always said of this that as soon as her lips touched his, he pulled away. He has never wavered from that at all since he told me about it. I can see his desperation to get away from this and keep moving forward. It is getting us both down thinking about it.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

If you have doubts you will not be able to move on. It will eat away at you. You need the 100% truth and if he can't give it to you then tell him there is the door. Your imagination is running wild.. he needs to "man up".

It sounds like he is trying to cover his a$$.

He did not turn her down..


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I think many of us LS get where you're coming from WalkingWounded. It's not so much what happened, but whether or not your H is being totally honest with you now. 

If you still feel like your H is intentially keeping details about the kiss from you, it will be hard to rebuild trust. It's unlikely the issue will resolve until you feel like everything adds up in your head. Your H broke your trust by allowing the EA, so it's understandable that it's up to him to help build it back up again. Talking in circles won't help, so perhaps for now you can talk more about what you're feeling than what may or may not have happened.

Let your H know you want to trust him, but it's difficult when accounts of the affair lack consistency and leave you feeling unsettled. Until you feel like your questions have adequate answers and create a clearer big picture, it will take longer to recover. Let him know if he remembers any details, no matter how small, it might be the piece of information that fits it all together. 

For instance, if he responded to her kiss, even briefly, it might explain why she was so pleased. Right now it seems like you have bits and pieces of the truth, but a few key pieces are missing. Probably nothing major, but enough that the picture is not complete, so you're still looking to fit it all together.

Good luck, I know it's hard when that feeling of uncertainity washes over you. The key is to have your H help that feeling go away, not make it worse or linger.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Guys

Thank you so much. All of your words have really helped me get some perspective. I also had a talk with my favorite sister who is very direct and straight down the line and kinda kicked things into focus. I respect her opinion as I know she is not one to sugar coat things or tell me what I *want* to hear so that was helpful too.

I have copied some really insightful comments and will print them out to take to MC as something to show my H as to why this is so important to me.

I am kinda looking forward as to what I will do if he doesn't give me anything more and how I plan to deal with that (I don't know the answer yet btw.) But I have not actually considered how to deal with if he opens up and tells me what I suspect is actually true, ie that it wasn't just her doing the kissing. I will be hurt, but also I feel that would affect a lot of stuff he has said about how for him it was only about the attention and flirtation. I do realize though that, although it sounds crazy on an infidelity forum, that should this be the case, I will also feel pleased that he did stop it there. Like it went one step too far, but that step shook him to his senses and made sure nothing else physical happened.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

Don't get into the debate of splitting words & meanings... it's a rat-hole that there's no end for. 

fwiw, I believe "pulling up short of an actual kiss" could have been a long, slow, full-acknowledged, drawn-out action that onlyactually resulted in very short actual physical touch, and be far "worse" of an act than a swift, full-on, open mouth lips pressing -- with a just-as-swift pull away -- that is essentially meaningless in the moment. 

Seems like it's somehow still splitting hairs and words. Only he knows what really happened from his viewpoint (which could very well be slightly different than hers), and more importantly what he felt at the time. You'll just never know for sure, unfortunately. What does still have to happen is you have to believe he's being fully open to you, for you, with you... that's what is still somehow lacking.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

We are still at stalemate. I'm in a bit of a mess. I actually feel like I'm going a little bit mad. He is being quite calm and not angry, but simply says my imagination is running riot, I need to stop. He'll then say we'll talk in the evening, the other night he then just said "I don't know what else to say" and shut down. He hardly said a word for tbe rest of the evening and I blew up right before bedtime: then he said why didn't I bring it up earlier??

Last night: nothing. I was pretty down and tearful but didn't have it in me to start talking. He was talking like everything was good. I guess I wanted to see if he'd bring it up but no ( he texted to say we'd talk later.). He'd rather ignore it. 

It's going to blow up, I know it. We don't see much of each other on a Friday, maybe an hour this evening before he will go out. So this atmosphere will carry on until tomorrow. I hate this.

What makes it worse? His married best friend is in some kind of EA/PA with one of their mutual friends and is leaning on my H for support. I found out and got a message from his friend saying he hoped I didn't think badly of him and he wanted to do the right thing by stopping it. I had to be vety tactful for the sake of diplomacy but I was pretty annoyed at him. I don't want this stuff in my face.
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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

In your options you outlined earlier you did not have choosing not to believe him and communicating that you did not believe him and leaving it at that.

If someone is lying to you, and then lying to you about lying to you, further questioning is only going to get you more of the same...i.e. if you do what you always do you are going to get what you always get.

When kids have a lying habit, parents are advised to calmly tell them that they do not believe what is being told to them, and then present safe truth-telling situations. This gets the kid into the habit of telling the truth. The idea is to start with the easy things, that you know the answer to, and to gradually move to more complex issues, say those of emotions or intents, questioning things that don't add up with neutral emotions that can be confirmed like curiousity. Because of past habits that are deeply embedded in adults from their childhoods, truth telling can be scary, not just because of consequences, but because it means asking the person to get in touch with emotions that are scary that they are not used to dealing with (how they got into wayward issues to begin with, they were not honest with themselves about feelings for other person even if they were primitive or opportunistic feelings and so could not do anything about their feelings - in order to steer a car you need to have a hand or two on the steering wheel and be able to look through a windshield.)

Anyway, I am not discounting how lies affect you, they are unpleasant, but the reality of the situation is that you are dealing someone who cannot even handle their own truths. His emotional truth may be different than yours, because his perception of it even experientially is entirely different. It doesn't mean he can't change, and you can play a part in changing that by having to do some things his parents ought to have done, but even though the truth is a simple, factual thing, it's not so simple as throwing a switch. 

There are entire philosophy centers that deal with the concept of truth. You can have an operating truth that your H lies about physical details because of a variety of reasons, some of them having to do with memory or confusion of memory (or explicit memories that are painful or troubling or disturbing for him to remember) or shame or consequences or whatever. If the truth disappeared entirely from your life how unseated would you be? Is your truth dependent on his? If it is, then maybe that is worth adjusting. You can have a goal of increased truth-telling but open book is a lesson in patience. You can get whatever words you want out of someone even if they are literal truth it might still not be emotional truth. So what matters is the type of truth you want, and what the timeline is for getting it, why it is important and so forth. Sometimes it is enough to know that you can feel the truth and it is not someone else's recounting of it. So you have truth of a sort but the important thing is that you have it and you can act on the emotional truth that you feel, the results of what he did...and go from there to deal with that, regardless of what his story is. So suppose it was a full blown embrace of a kiss. He made out entirely, groping and grinding and so forth. If that's your emotional truth, that's what you have to deal with. That would be the issue, not his truth-telling, which is a concern, but not very overwhelming, since you have the truth, as you can intuit it, confirmation is not really necessary unless you have little confidence in your interpretation. 

This is not a mind-wrap exercise to get away from the impact of deceit and betrayal. The bottom line is that your H's truth is of little use to you, personally, if it is improved upon or not. You know what you know. Getting 'truth' to come out of his mouth is like picking lint balls off your favorite sweater. It will improve the looks for other people but not the way it feels when you wear it, and there will be less sweater left if done continually. Just wear the sweater and go with how it feels.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> In your options you outlined earlier you did not have choosing not to believe him and communicating that you did not believe him and leaving it at that.
> 
> If someone is lying to you, and then lying to you about lying to you, further questioning is only going to get you more of the same...i.e. if you do what you always do you are going to get what you always get.
> 
> ...


Homemaker

Can I say this is a very thought provoking post. Thank you.

I think to a degree I was dealing with what I considered to be the truth. That is that with this, I thought the going in for the kiss was mutual, it started, then he had his "**** what am I doing" moment and pulled away. 

Tbh I'm not sure how I even feel about that. But I can handle truth. What is getting to me is the thought he is, even though I suspect in a partially well intentiond manner, lying about feelings and intentions and convincing me I am losing the plot. I KNOW all this stuff does not make sense. It is the thought he would go to the lengths of me feeling like I'm losing it to avoid spilling his true feelings.

But I get what you are saying. I will go and think about it more.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> In your options you outlined earlier you did not have choosing not to believe him and communicating that you did not believe him and leaving it at that.
> 
> If someone is lying to you, and then lying to you about lying to you, further questioning is only going to get you more of the same...i.e. if you do what you always do you are going to get what you always get.
> 
> ...


Thought provoking indeed, but I (very respectfully) do not completely agree here. 

To me, it's not so much _getting_ the truth that matters, not about making him 'spill the beans' as such -- but rather getting the trust, honesty, and resulting non-sexual intimacy and connection that comes with knowing your partner is being truthful and open with you - and that is what I feel ww is seeking and not getting. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

walkingwounded said:


> Homemaker
> 
> Can I say this is a very thought provoking post. Thank you.
> 
> ...


It's hard to search on this phone - but can you refresh my memory as to how you found out about the kiss and how long ago?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

2x is spot on. There is something somehow "missing" by way of emotional intimacy whilst he is holding back. I do not feel settled, like I am at peace with the past. Also I worry that we have been dealing with something that is not as he has explained. Our counselor has gone through scenarios like have I considered the OW's words may not accurately portray the truth, different people's truths are different because of their interpretations and it may be that it happened as my H said but the OW had a different take on it. She never offered the option that my H may have held back.

I found out a few months ago now, there were a couple of things. When he 'fessed up after I brought up concerns he was acting "off", I felt he was distant, and was worrying I had done something to upset or bother him. He told me about her, said he was confused about his life, how he felt about us. The kiss was one incident he relayed as part of the story he told me, and I know it wasn't the only occasion she made a pass at him, but the othrr times I know he rebuffed her. This would be about four months ago now that I found out and I would guess that incident was maybe six months ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

"It is the thought he would go to the lengths of me feeling like I'm losing it to avoid spilling his true feelings."


My H would have had me committed before he would admit to any medical practicioner what in part led to crazy. (Most of it was an allergic reaction...BUT nobody knew this at the time, and when asked if there was any REASON why I would have psychotic anxiety which was one of the working diagnoses, he denied anything at home or on his part...all the while telling other people I was kind of nuts and this was 'usual' for me.) So I get your point about it, and want to say that going crazy is what happens when you do not connect to the truth as a belief, regardless of spin-doctoring. There is no NEED to ask for the truth, if you know it by feeling it. The dichotomy between what you know as real and someone else's insistence that it is not, is what leads to crazy making, not the lie itself. 

2xloser taking care of your own reality is a first step in gaining intimacy, because you are absolutely correct, intimacy requires truth as a basis, and while you cannot control someone else's truth and communication of trust, you can control your own. Being honest to yourself about the situation and NOT depending on yourself and honoring your own truth, is a first step in gaining intimacy. Not doing so would be irrational, because you CANNOT depend on a person who cannot verify your reality and insists on dismissing it. The tables can be turned very easily, especially when there has been infidelity of any sort, you have to acknowledge your hurt and your tendency to pull away and to have anger, which of course the other person knows very well is a natural consequence of their deceit and messing with your mind. 

So, yes, you can FORCE honesty but then is it REALLY honesty? The facts can be given, but even if that is what happened is that what they wanted to have happen? Truth telling does not necessarily lead to intimacy. I had some very good friends in grade school who used to lie to me for my own good, and I very much appreciated it and when a couple years later the opportunity to deceive them for their own good arose, in a different setting where I had the upper hand and responsibility for them, they were good-natured about it. In both instances I benefitted, the first I learned to ride a two-wheeler without training wheels and in the second I was relieved of the knowledge of their copying answers off my test paper (I changed all my answers moments before the test was due). So, what was right? There are times when deceit is a positive trait, it is all in the timing and the intent of the deceit. 

Truth is thought to be a universally good thing however there are clearly times when it is not, and likewise goes the same as non-truth-telling. Not talking about little white lies. Talking about the big time here. Our perception is that lying is evil, and truth tellers should wear a halo and we need to challenge ourselves on that. 

I think TRUTH should not be concerned with TRUST.
You can TRUST someone when you are appropriately INDEPENDENT of the TRUTH of others but respect your own. 
And with TRUST comes intimacy. Which in itself, intimacy, is not solid ground but comes and goes and in different forms. 

I think about this in terms of seeking the Holy Grail : it is found mostly in the process of looking for it. Most of the huge obstacles are inside of us. To think that another human holds the key to our truth and happiness in a relationship is to give them way too much power, and to take away from our own God-given power. You can obtain intimacy by committing to someone who is not perfect. Intimacy does not require complete trust, if it did nobody would ever be intimate because it is impossible not to be hurt at one time or another by someone you love, whether intentionally or not. I am not saying that deliberate deceit is a good thing if the intent is to deceive and to manipulate for one's own gain. Trusting yourself to be hurt without losing your capacity for human intimacy is to live in a strange land. Ironically, it is a land of reality. Living in a perfect marriage where everyone is honest with each other and themselves and completely transparent would be a nightmare. Now, the SUBJECT of the deceit is based on an unpleasant reality. But maybe it is unpleasant for more than one person. Sharing shame or sense of failure can lead to intimacy. Loss of trust and loss of innocence in a marriage can also build intimacy. It is not the way it is recommended, but neither do people recommend camping in the rain. The recommendation is usually to go to a spa/B&B etc. to reconnect with your spouse. Camping in the rain is usually a better team builder so far as intimacy goes. It is a shared, unpleasant experience. 

I have a lot of empathy for my husband, as well as sympathy, but I am careful to 'stay out of the men's room'. There are some things that he alone has to deal with that are not mine. I can accept that. But I can also accept some of his sense of failure while still committing to marriage and by accepting his sense of failure and even his terrible ability to lie and deceive so easily, for whatever reason, and the guilt it is easy to see he lives with when he does so (he envies my easiness and transparency at life and my sense of TRUST in MYSELF regardless of what HE does...he sees me going the distance for myself and realizes that he is entitled to more of that from me for himself if he can find a way to be closer to me, by developing trust through truthfulness...even if the truth s*cks to hear and feel...). So I disagree, I do not think that having the other person suddenly become honest by definition leads to intimacy, any more than a POW becomes loyal to their captors by following the rules and accepting punishments when they do not. 

Intimacy can be built in the absence of total honesty, while moving closer to it. Like a calculus equation, it is like an 'approach' that can never be reached. But by definition must be moved towards within a committed marriage.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

OK. I understand the things you are saying. I am not sure I agree with everything. And not sure if I could put it into practise.

So you continue to be committed, even though the other person's version of events is not what you feel to be true. You however accept their human flaws and their reasons for lying and build intimacy through accepting them as imperfect. You make peace with yourself by dealing with your truth.

I understand it, I do. I just don't know (not saying it's impossible but not sure if I can) live like that accepting that they can lie, even when it is pretty obvious that they are doing so, and will use anger, mind tricks and anytjing else to go to such lengths: it is the manipulation of "me" and my life that I have difficulty accepting.

I grasp that if you realize you know the truth you can work through this. You can change your mindset of "needinf" that truth to be validated by them. I can accept that my H would do the things he has done and understand the reasons why. I have trouble accepting he would keep the details I need from me when he knows I want them, when he sees what it does to me. I have trouble accepting he would act like this even now when we have come a good way since then.

I understand and want to be able to be so accepting because I completely see AND feel the logic in what you are saying. I know he does it NOT to hurt me at all but it is the way he feels and knows and understands his world and reality.

ETA: So in practical terms, what would I do? State "I hear what you are saying but don't believe it to be true"? Then continue by exploring the situation in hand? Is this done in a conversation ir do you keep returning to it? Is it "ongoing?" Not sure how it works in practise?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I have been thinking long and hard about everything.

It is patently obvious to me that I cannot continue as we are right now. I have realized a lot of things. I am putting myself at the mercy of my emotions: and his. Also that I have issues with control which seem to be the root of a lot of my feelings from his EA.

I want to say, I have posted about some of these issues previously. Forgiveness, relinquishing control, allowing yourself to trust and be vulnerable, basing your happiness on others.

Last night I wasn't with my H but had chance to do some thinking. I sent him a message. It was long but in it I said that although I didn't believe what he had said, I love him very much, not because I expect him to be perfect but in spite of his flaws and imperfections, as he does me. That I understand anything he lied about or left out was not done to hurt me but because of his own reasons. That I hope one day he will be able to reach inside himself and be honest in a way he knows how. That I will work through my truth. That I don't like what he had dkne but I love him.

I have also resolved to stop trying to have power over those ghings I can't control, ie other people.

Also to work on stopping the resentment. To stop beating *myself* up over *his* imperfections, his bad choices. That no matter how anguished I feel, to know that his actions reflect on him and not me, they hold no stock of MY value or self-worth. That I am fantastic, a great person and a great catch in and of myself thanks :-D

And to remind myself that my H *has* done a lot by way of work in MC. I skim over that sometimes asI'm so buay feeling the injustice of it all. He's not a bad person. He screwed up. But he has learned from it and so have I. It's do or die or I'm going to live my lufe too busy feeling wronged to actually enjoy it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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