# Growing pains in marriage while confronting my "nice guy" issues.



## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

I am reading "No more Mr. nice guy" right now and love the book. Like it was written for me. For 8 years of marriage and a year dating before that I have made my darling wife my emotional center and smothered her with an overwhelming amount of well-intentioned self-sacrificing love and affection.

I've started making changes and feel much better already. Mainly, I have decided to be happy despite my wife's affection level or mood. Also, I have started speaking out in a very calm and controlled way and standing up for myself when she is degrading and disrespectful to me. I feel great, but it's not going over well with her yet.

I discussed this with her before making changes, but she didn't seem to think any change was needed. 

Over the past 8 years I have let most everything hurtful--including little or no physical or sexual contact--slide in the name of peace, and she has rarely apologized to me in the past decade after wronging me.

I'm 31, she's 29. We are both healthy and attractive. She stays home with our 3 children 4,2, 2mos and she is an excellent mother and home maker. I do a lot around and outside the house, too and am a very devoted and committed father. 

Today she treated me very harshly in front of our children to the point I had to try and explain to my 4-year old that everything was okay. This is a rare, but regular occurrence. My wife is a great person with a very ugly temper. Thankfully, I am her only target and she does not lash out at the kids when, on the somewhat rare occasion, she becomes very angry.

After I put the kids to bed she was upset that I confronted her about the incident (I did not fight back at the time for the sake of our children, who were present.) she was angry at me that I had not just let it go. 

She went on to say I have changed and that if she didn't know better, she'd think I was cheating. Never apologized. 

I have never cheated on her and will not. She knows better than to even mention it 😔.

I am still very kind, attentive and committed to her. I love only her and desperately want an intimate relationship like we once had. I have simply stopped throwing myself, wreckless abandoned, at her feet constantly hoping to be loved and respected for it. 

I have discussed with her that I am trying to improve myself and become a man more worthy of her respect. 

Her go-to is saying that She's just a horrible person and can never be the person I want. My reply is that I want her and request that she just try to control her temper and mashing out at me in snger--especially in front of our children.

Shall I stay the course and continue to communicate with her openly about my self-improvement snd invite her to read be involved and help me if she wants?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Nick, here's a hint. If someone is telling you in your face that they're horrible etc al and acting up, BELIEVE THEM.

here's another hint. Pop psychology diy help books are too general to be of any use in specific situations. Especially books that the hoi polloi read and lap up because they self identify.

Now, as someone with a decade of psychology education I know a thing or two about angry people. She won't "control her temper" because that's not where the problem is.

depending on where you live she's got you by the goatee. Three kids worth of child support is quite a deterrent.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Does your wife have an education? Staying at home all day with kids for years straight will make anyone go crazy. Pony up $ and put them into daycare. She needs to interact with other adults and have a purpose in life.

And please go get a vasectomy... you don't need anymore kids with this woman!


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Her saying she is horrible is planting her ass in the victim chair and gaslighting you all at the same time.

...poor me, I mistreat you, feel sorry for me and apologize for doing nothing wrong to assuage my toxic shame...

Don't fall for it.

"Wife, if you think you are a horrible person, then make a choice to do something about it."


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nick,
When you are ready to do what needs doing - send me a private message. Until then you - have zero chance of improvement. 

And just to be clear my advice won't be to divorce her or to do anything to her you wouldn't want done to you. 

That said, you aren't helping her be the best possible version of herself - and your enabling is not healthy for your children.

But your mission must be: I'm gonna do what's right - and whatever happens - happens. 





NickTheChemist said:


> I am reading "No more Mr. nice guy" right now and love the book. Like it was written for me. For 8 years of marriage and a year dating before that I have made my darling wife my emotional center and smothered her with an overwhelming amount of well-intentioned self-sacrificing love and affection.
> 
> I've started making changes and feel much better already. Mainly, I have decided to be happy despite my wife's affection level or mood. Also, I have started speaking out in a very calm and controlled way and standing up for myself when she is degrading and disrespectful to me. I feel great, but it's not going over well with her yet.
> 
> ...


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Growing pains in marriage while confronting my &quot;nice guy&quot; issues.*

It was a mistake to tell her about your plan for improvement. Stop that and just do it. Do you need her permission? No. 

Next, understand that it will take at least a year or more for any consistent changes by you to be trusted and accepted by her. She's likely known your "old" self a long time. Rome was not built in a day. She will attempt to sabotage you at every possible instance, so just carry on and jump over those hurdles. 

Agree with the other advice here. Listen to it. No one should put up with general disrespect. If she can't be respectful and hold polite conversation, then leave the room and do not engage until she can be calm.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

When somebody shows you who they are, believe them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Her saying she is horrible is planting her ass in the victim chair and gaslighting you all at the same time.
> 
> ...poor me, I mistreat you, feel sorry for me and apologize for doing nothing wrong to assuage my toxic shame...
> 
> ...


That response to an emotional person may augment conflict, far. His wife may end up feeling more alone and like she is the only person she can truly trust in the marriage. 

An approach that could deepen your relationship, as opposed to just creating more conflict, Nick, would be to learn Active Listening. Are you familiar with it?

When your wife responds to you the way she did, it is actually an opening. She is showing some vulnerability. 

Responding kindly and empathetically to that vulnerability, but without owning her responsibility, could do wonders for your marriage.


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

GuyInColorado said:


> Does your wife have an education? Staying at home all day with kids for years straight will make anyone go crazy. Pony up $ and put them into daycare. She needs to interact with other adults and have a purpose in life.
> 
> And please go get a vasectomy... you don't need anymore kids with this woman!


Yes, she was an orthodontist assistant before we had our first kiddo. She does not want to go back to work now and I don't want her to either for another 5 years. At that time all 3 children will be in school.

Vasectomy is on the schedule already ✂


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NickTheChemist said:


> Yes, she was an orthodontist assistant before we had our first kiddo. *She does not want to go back to work now and I don't want her to either for another 5 years.* At that time all 3 children will be in school.
> 
> Vasectomy is on the schedule already ✂


Smart of both of you. 

I can only imagine how stressful your life would be if she were working.


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

Yes, I have been kind, caring and empathetic our entire marriage. I am not being mean or unavailable at all. The difference is that I am calling it out when she mistreats me and not backing off when she tries to flip it back on me. I usd to end up begging forgiveness after attempting to call her out on treating me harshly.

I am kind, loving, caring and I make a point to let her know how much I love and appreciate her and all she does. The result thus far has been an awesome friendship with almost no sex and submitting to her every time she gets angry. If I continue in that way I will end up resenting her. 

It's a bad situation because I have tended to hide mistakes fearing rejection and she tends to reprimand me harshly for making a mistake (such as forgetting to pay a small bill by it's due date, even tho I call and have late fee removed and pay the bill). I am trying to break this ugly negative feedback loop. 

It's so difficult to be emotionally engaged every day and be loving and actively show love every day for so long with little or no physical response or contact from her and with very little sex. We've only been physically intimated 5 times since last May. 

Still, I don't mention sex right now--seems like there are several other fires to put out first--even though returning to sn active sexual relationship would change everything much for the better and help these changes along tremendously


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## adrienne.degrace (May 8, 2017)

GuyInColorado said:


> Does your wife have an education? Staying at home all day with kids for years straight will make anyone go crazy. Pony up $ and put them into daycare. She needs to interact with other adults and have a purpose in life.
> 
> And please go get a vasectomy... you don't need anymore kids with this woman!


I agree. I'm the type of wife who would lose her mind being at home with the kids. We also have three of them. If they weren't in daycare I'd be just as angry, if not more, than OPs wife 

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NickTheChemist said:


> Yes, I have been kind, caring and empathetic our entire marriage. I am not being mean or unavailable at all. The difference is that I am calling it out when she mistreats me and not backing off when she tries to flip it back on me. I usd to end up begging forgiveness after attempting to call her out on treating me harshly.
> 
> I am kind, loving, caring and I make a point to let her know how much I love and appreciate her and all she does. The result thus far has been an awesome friendship with almost no sex and submitting to her every time she gets angry. If I continue in that way I will end up resenting her.
> 
> ...


I think Active Listening could be the shortcut. Are you familiar with it?

I doubt the "calling her out" approach is going to spark sexual desire in her. Probably will shut her down even more.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

adrienne.degrace said:


> I agree. I'm the type of wife who would lose her mind being at home with the kids. We also have three of them. If they weren't in daycare I'd be just as angry, if not more, than OPs wife
> 
> Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk


All three are in daycare? Does what you earn cover the cost?

I have heard daycare is really expensive. I am not sure Nick's wife's wages as an ortho asst. would cover it.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

NickTheChemist said:


> Yes, I have been kind, caring and empathetic our entire marriage. I am not being mean or unavailable at all. The difference is that I am calling it out when she mistreats me and not backing off when she tries to flip it back on me. I usd to end up begging forgiveness after attempting to call her out on treating me harshly.
> 
> Good, keep it up.
> 
> ...


The biggest part of not being a "nice guy" is to stop acting like a nice guy and letting her walk all over you. There are tons of women that would kill for the opportunity to be a SAHM while their kids are young and you are providing that to her and not getting your basic needs met. Recognize that she should appreciate you and be showing that appreciating by treating you with at least the same level of respect she'd show to the mailman (and she should be having frequent sex with you). You should also decide what it is that you are going to tolerate. If you don't want to tolerate her berating you, then stop tolerating it. If she won't have sex with you then divorce her and find someone else who will. She has a lot of security knowing that you are willing to put up with her craziness and you won't impart any consequences, so she has no motivation to change. The moment you realize you are in control of yourself and are willing to enforce natural consequences, she'll have to start rethinking whether she wants to continue down her current path or not.

She has already admitted to you that she knows she isn't treating you well. She is just waiting for you to step up to the plate and establish some firm boundaries.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

You allowed 8 years of defaulting to her emotions to dictate your relationship. Taking this back will take time. You have an uphill battle to stand up for yourself now. It's probably doable but you have stay consistent with it.

How often has she accused you of cheating? If this is recent with no reason to give her to not trust you then I would suggest you start snooping. I was only accused of cheating once and that's when my x actually was and trying to deflect some of her guilt. Also came with the "I'm a horrible person and you deserve better line". She might not but you may want to rule it out.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> "Wife, if you think you are a horrible person, then make a choice to do something about it."


Even better, advise our W to sign up for anger management classes. Your W is being abusive with lashing out. Further, your W is teaching your children this is how people deal with each other. Moms get angry, yell and scream at dads. Wrong.

Advise your W she needs to seek counseling for anger.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

Stop telling her. It will only come across as you seeking her approval. 

My niceguy ex would do this every time he had some epiphany on how to be more assertive. I would think WHO CARES, why do you need to tell me anything, just do what you need to do. And things would change for a little while and go back to normal until his next epiphany. A stupid cycle that left me with even less respect for him.

Don't say anything because if you don't manage to make any serious changes, you're going to end up looking stupid in her eyes.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

NickTheChemist said:


> Yes, I have been kind, caring and empathetic our entire marriage. I am not being mean or unavailable at all. The difference is that I am calling it out when she mistreats me and not backing off when she tries to flip it back on me. I usd to end up begging forgiveness after attempting to call her out on treating me harshly.
> 
> I am kind, loving, caring and I make a point to let her know how much I love and appreciate her and all she does. The result thus far has been an awesome friendship with almost no sex and submitting to her every time she gets angry. If I continue in that way I will end up resenting her.
> 
> ...


A few thoughts on your first post then I will move to the second one.

You are doing you Glover changes from being a Nice Guy to an integrated man, for YOU. You don't need her permission or encouragement for you to do what is right for you and your family. If you really are dropping out of the Nice Guy group, then you will be a better father and role model for your children.

One of the key Glover concepts is the covert contract. You are not changing to create some kind of covert contract to the love, respect, or sex from your wife. You are to do it for the right reasons, which is to make you a better man. Another hallmark of Glover is to drop any codependency and need for your wife's validation.

In my sex starved marriage, one of the things that the sec therapist told me about my wife was that she would treat me badly and pick fights with me, so she could maintain the emotional distance she needed to allow her to refuse to have sex with me.

Now to the above. As to the missing paying the bill and getting the fee waived. OK, I understand her frustration. In my marriage, my wife wants to pay the bills, so I handle the financial investments and taxes. We both like this division of labor. A year ago she missed a couple bills, got the fee waived and then we got a huge auto/home owner insurance premium hike. Turns out that the credit rating folks knocked out credit rating down due to the missed bill payments and the insurance company uses the credit rating as a key factor in determining insurance risk. 

Now as to your venting about giving caring, etc and getting no sex back. That sounds to me like a Nice Guy covert contact, if I ever heard one. Knock it off, you are loving and caring because that is who you should be as a good integrated man and father role model for your children.

When your wife "reprimands" for things that you mess up on, or when she criticizes you over explaining to your children not to be afraid of their mother when she raises her voice to you, you need to "man up." By that I mean when you talk to your wife about such things, you need to firmly and lovingly tell her that you are grown up, take responsibility for your life, but are human and make mistakes at times. You are a man and while you value your wifes input, she is not your mother and you never want her to treat you as such. (Do you remember the Glover NMMNG book section about NG's who are raised by women, trained in school to be guided and socialized in school by women teachers, and end up marrying women who become more mother than lover/wife?)

I suggest you finish Glover's book and then reread it again, but this time really study i to figure out how to apply it to your life. It helped me a lot. P.S. MW Davis Book, the Sex Starved Marriage teaches just about the same stuff, but from a different perspective. If you can't figure out what Glover is saying try reading Davis and then figure out where they are both telling you to do similar stuff.

Good luck.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

NickTheChemist said:


> It's so difficult to be emotionally engaged every day and be loving and actively show love every day for so long with little or no physical response or contact from her and with very little sex. We've only been physically intimated 5 times since last May.


Have you said this. How about you put some demands on what you expect from the marriage. You are not in it alone. Your job is not to only fulfill her needs she has responsibility to you as well. You certainly have a right to say how you feel. Being authentic and not a "nice guy" isn't just calling your wife out when she is horrible it's also clearly stating your needs.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Following an advice from a book that speaks in generalizations is not really the way to go. If only it was that easy. Action seems to follow feeling, but really action and feeling go together; and by regulating the action, which is under the more direct control of the will, you can indirectly regulate the feeling, which is not. That is what you are attempting to do. You need to act differently than you normally do and you are doing that now. Going through the motions is a start, but to be truly effective with acting opposite to emotion, you must throw yourself into it wholeheartedly. The problem is that your wife may not like the new you, so you need to find a middle ground. For you to change you need to become the man you want to be by jumping in with both feet. Your wife will view it as you not acting as she expects you to act, or wants you to. Talk to her and let her understand what you are doing and how she can help. If you just come at her with the new you, she may take it as an attack against her rather than you trying to change.


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

Vinnydee said:


> Following an advice from a book that speaks in generalizations is not really the way to go. If only if it was that easy. Action seems to follow feeling, but really action and feeling go together; and by regulating the action, which is under the more direct control of the will, you can indirectly regulate the feeling, which is not. That is what you are attempting to do. You need to act differently than you normally do and you are doing just that. Going through the motions is a start, but to be truly effective with acting opposite to emotion, you must throw yourself in wholeheartedly. The problem is that your wife may not like the new you, so you need to find a middle ground. For you to change you need to become the man you want to be by jumping in with both feet. Your wife will view it you not acting as she expects you to act or wants you to. Talk to her and let her understand what you are doing and how she can help. If you just come at it, she may take it as an attack against her rather than you trying to change.


This is great encouragement. My wife noticed very early on s change in me and reacted negatively to it. I told her that I have recognized flaws in myself that I am working through accepting and addressing. I told her that I desire her respect and that I am becoming a man more worthy of it. I said that by allowing her to disrespect me for years without consequence, I fear I have communicated that I do not want her to respect me. 

This didn't go over well at first, but she has come around and we have open discussion now for the past 2 days about our marriage issues and needs. For the first time in our marriage, she is showing effort to change her actions to make things better, so this is a good start and I am cautiously optimistic. 

I will stay the course. Current challenge is that she sees me calmly rebuking ugly disrespectful words and actions as being a "jerk", making her feel like ****, and setting a bad example for our daughters. I tell her that it would be worse for me to teach them that I will put up with that and they too should disrespect men in such ways. 

The most freeing thing is letting go of the need for her approval, happiness and good mood. Some of the things I've been through this week have made her very unhappy and put her in a crap mood, so I just go on doing what I need to do and let her get over it. I tell her that I do not accept her disrespect and demeaning behavior and I withdraw until she can treat me respectfully. Then I respond in love.

I have much work to do on myself, but love the changes thus far.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

She's not used to you rocking the boat so much. It will be a bit of time before she gets her sea legs.

Give MEM2020 a PM...


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

Wolf1974 said:


> You allowed 8 years of defaulting to her emotions to dictate your relationship. Taking this back will take time. You have an uphill battle to stand up for yourself now. It's probably doable but you have stay consistent with it.
> 
> You absolutely right. I believe this will be Long process.
> 
> How often has she accused you of cheating? If this is recent with no reason to give her to not trust you then I would suggest you start snooping.


This is the first ever. I have never broken her trust or given her any reason to think that I was cheating. I'm guessing she fears the worse after noticing me changing. She is not cheating in any physical way. She is only away alone 1-2 times a week to go shopping.


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## mlc (May 6, 2010)

She says she's a horrible person and will never be who you want her to be because she doesn't have the guts to tell you she's miserable. She wants YOU to be the bad guy and leave.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

mlc said:


> She says she's a horrible person and will never be who you want her to be because she doesn't have the guts to tell you she's miserable. She wants YOU to be the bad guy and leave.


I think it's actually a cry for help.


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## mlc (May 6, 2010)

She is accusing you of cheating because SHE wants out and SHE doesn't have the guts to say THAT. Every time she says something rude, you should say, Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. You and I both know that isn't true. Then leave the room.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

mlc said:


> She is accusing you of cheating because SHE wants out and SHE doesn't have the guts to say THAT. Every time she says something rude, you should say, Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. You and I both know that isn't true. Then leave the room.


I think she is just speaking her fears.


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## mlc (May 6, 2010)

You are making excuses for her rude behavior. She's a grown adult. She should act like one.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

mlc said:


> You are making excuses for her rude behavior. She's a grown adult. She should act like one.


Just getting her to behave the way he wants is not going to change her heart.

Reach her heart and her behavior will change all on its own. And you'll be the hero.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I think it's actually a cry for help.


Or a way to stay in control.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Or a way to stay in control.


I don't think so. I bet she would love for him to be a leader in their family.

But she has to be able to trust him.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Wow can I relate to this. I think the first problem is that you let her be a SAHM. I find that SAHM's are more disrespectful and anger driven then most wives. My wive also lashes out at me in front of the kids. This led to their relationship with her being very bad, now they hate her. As long as you let her disrespect for you go unchecked your relationship will get worse and worse and so will her relationship with her kids. 

You should make her go back to work, contribute to the family income, and have to respect people she works with on an adult level. This the only way you can repair your relationship with her, assuming you want to.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

NickTheChemist said:


> This is the first ever. I have never broken her trust or given her any reason to think that I was cheating. I'm guessing she fears the worse after noticing me changing. She is not cheating in any physical way. She is only away alone 1-2 times a week to go shopping.


Well then you may be right and she just can see the control she has over you slipping away and is reacting in fear. This is just really bad it's gotten to this point. You are up for an uphill battle sir. All you can do is declare that you have been disrespected long enough and stand firm in the constant pushback you will get for awhile. You fold even once and will have to start over. Good luck to you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I don't think so. I bet she would love for him to be a leader in their family.
> 
> But she has to be able to trust him.


I think I have seen a wee bit more of the dark side of human behavior... 

It's hard to lead when the other side screams.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> I think I have seen a wee bit more of the dark side of human behavior...
> 
> It's hard to lead when the other side screams.


No one said it would be easy, john.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> No one said it would be easy, john.


So the man is supposed to do all the heavy lifting with few expectations. Makes perfect sense 😁


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

john117 said:


> So the man is supposed to do all the heavy lifting with few expectations. Makes perfect sense 😁


Only if he wants to continue life that way. Once we start holding others accountable and share the load of relationships they improve greatly


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> So the man is supposed to do all the heavy lifting with few expectations. Makes perfect sense 😁


I think he has to inspire her.

Unless he finds one willing to carry him . . .


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> I think he has to inspire her.
> 
> Unless he finds one willing to carry him . . .


She sure sounds like an inspiration, or the kind of women that inspires a man to be inspiring.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> She sure sounds like an inspiration, or the kind of women that inspires a man to be inspiring.


They have children together. They alone are worth trying to work things out with his wife.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> They have children together. They alone are worth trying to work things out with his wife.


I am not calling for divorce on this thread. But he needs to inspire her by being strong and assertive, not by white knighting her. If your wife perceives you as weak, you being her white knight just makes you look like a push over. It only looks brave when you are brave. 

Besides all that I like to treat women like responsible entirely equal adults with their own agency and responsibility. Human beings who are perfectly capable of treating other people with respect and decency, which is what is required in any relationship whether married or not. I don't see them as the weak children you do, powerless humans who need their husbands to inspire them to act like decent human beings. Frankly your advice seems condescending to women. It's condescending to have such low expectations of them. Why can't she be expected to treat him with basic respect because she is a woman? Because a women can only be respectful if she is inspired to do so? Nah, she is just as responsible for being decent as anyone else. 

You also never have such low expectations of men. You just naturally know that a man who treats his wife like **** because she doesn't "inspire" him is an *******. You never, ever hold women to such basic standards.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I am not calling for divorce on this thread. But he needs to inspire her by being strong and assertive, not by white knighting her. If your wife perceives you as weak, you being her white knight just makes you look like a push over. It only looks brave when you are brave.


I don't recall ever saying a man should be a pushover. I have consistently said men should be truthful and of sound character: hard-working, kind, empathetic, etc. 



> Besides all that I like to treat women like responsible entirely equal adults with their own agency and responsibility. Human beings who are perfectly capable of treating other people with respect and decency, which is what is required in any relationship whether married or not. I don't see them as the weak children you do, powerless humans who need their husbands to inspire them to act like decent human beings. Frankly your advice seems condescending to women. It's condescending to have such low expectations of them. Why can't she be expected to treat him with basic respect because she is a woman? Because a women can only be respectful if she is inspired to do so? Nah, she is just as responsible for being decent as anyone else.
> 
> You also never have such low expectations of men. You just naturally know that a man who treats his wife like **** because she doesn't "inspire" him is an *******. You never, ever hold women to such basic standards.


I am not convinced that marriage, on the whole, is worthwhile for women. To make it worthwhile, I think the man has to be of excellent quality. 

I am trying to help men become of excellent quality.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

For the right person.

Not for some screaming wench.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> For the right person.
> 
> Not for some screaming wench.


He has 3 children under 4 with her, a sahm who is probably practically pulling her hair out every day just dealing with those small kids.

Nick, you can be understanding without being a doormat. Have you taken any time to read about Active Listening? Employing that could calm your wife down and deepen your relationship.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> I am not convinced that marriage, on the whole, is worthwhile for women. To make it worthwhile, I think the man has to be of excellent quality.
> 
> I am trying to help men become of excellent quality.


I am sure a hell of a lot of sexist red pill men would say the same thing with the genders reverenced. 

Let me ask you this? What is the benefit for this man whose wife treats him like garbage?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I am sure a hell of a lot of sexist red pill men would say the same thing with the genders reverenced.
> 
> Let me ask you this? What is the benefit for this man whose wife treats him like garbage?


How old are you, sokillme? Do you have any children? Was your wife ever a sahm? Did she come from a dysfunctional family? Did she ever have self esteem issues?

I don't think a mother of 3 kids under 4 home with them all day and getting frustrated with her husband at night is anything unusual. I would think it pretty common, as a matter of fact.

He can learn the wonder of Active Listening and watch the tension in his wife greatly decrease as she feels listened to and understood, not just placated, or now, shut out. She will probably be so grateful and feel so close to him that he may find her initiating sex. And they surely have had it sometimes over the last few years, if they have several little kids.

He can grow from the experience of being a family man. He does not have to demand exact equality during this challenging time of life for his wife. He can learn maturity and patience instead.

There were times when I had all small kids that I wanted to get in the car and drive away. There were countless times I wondered what in the world I had gotten myself into. It did not seem like I would ever not practically be drowning in the needs of small children. 

Dug never lost his faith in the vision he had for our family. He was relentlessly positive and encouraging. He was not looking out for himself; instead, he tried to lighten my load.

He personified commitment and patience. I was the woman he loved, and this was the family he wanted. When I was struggling, he was reassuring. 

Without that kind of leadership, and with a husband who would have made personal demands, I do not know how I would have coped. I can only imagine the resentment I would have had.

Now, of course, I see the value of those sacrifices. Our kids are turning out great. We are financially stable. We have more and more time to enjoy each other.

But the kids had to be the priority in those years. And Dug would tell you the priority of the husband needs to be the wife. He nurtures her, so she can nurture the kids.

I think one of the reasons we were never sexless is because Dug is so good to me. He always believes in me, even, and especially, when I do not believe in myself. 

Looking at my daughter graduating top of her chemical engineering class this last weekend, seeing her get the Outstanding Senior award from the dean, and give the student address to her classmates, I felt such pride, and such gratitude to my husband. He has been so good to me, and to our children. That vision he had long ago, and that I largely carried out, is certainly paying off.

A truly good, truly wise husband is such a blessing to a mother and her children. May Nick be that to his family.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> How old are you, sokillme? Do you have any children? Was your wife ever a sahm? Did she come from a dysfunctional family? Did she ever have self esteem issues?


I am in my my 40s. My wifes family was pretty normal. She has your normal issues.

Now let me ask you a question. If you yelled and screamed at Dug every day because you were having a bad day and he just let you do that for years would he still be the man who you talk about so glowingly? Or do you think maybe you would have lost all respect for him after watching him allowing you abuse him so?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I am in my my 40s. My wifes family was pretty normal. She has your normal issues.
> 
> Now let me ask you a question. If you yelled and screamed at Dug every day because you were having a bad day and he just let you do that for years would he still be the man who you talk about so glowingly? Or do you think maybe you would have lost all respect for him after watching him allowing you abuse him so?


When you figure out why your wife is breaking down every day, you can turn that around, sokillme. You reach her heart, and her behavior will change on its own.

I cannot "abuse" my husband, btw. He has way more power than I do.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Now let me ask you a question. If you yelled and screamed at Dug every day because you were having a bad day and he just let you do that for years would he still be the man who you talk about so glowingly? Or do you think maybe you would have lost all respect for him after watching him allowing you abuse him so?


 @jld actually did do this. And Dug weathered her storm, and became a better husband and father because he had to do more than just turn his back or call her "crazy". He had to get to the depths of her to understand the storms, and he did that by standing tall, unafraid of them.


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

jld said:


> He has 3 children under 4 with her, a sahm who is probably practically pulling her hair out every day just dealing with those small kids.
> 
> Nick, you can be understanding without being a doormat. Have you taken any time to read about Active Listening? Employing that could calm your wife down and deepen your relationship.


Yes, I have been using active listening for s couple of years now. I'm a good listener anyway--I like the approach and it is very effective in all relationships. 

My wife's answers so far to discussions about issues this week are all over the place but most are either of the tone: you're being a selfish jerk, which I interoperate as "I'm losing my power over you". Or of the tone: "you are wonderful, I want all of the amazing things you do for me that I don't deserve." 

Once she asked what she could do so I reply with what my needs are:
1. Respect/admiration
2. Peace (in the home)
3. Intimacy/sexual fulfillment 
4. Companionship

She is making an effort, and her mood when I get home has been way better (peace in the home). She is trying to thank me more and pay more attention when we talk (admiration) 
And we are talking more and spending quality time together (companionship). 

I'm going to continue to encourage the good and speak out against the bad. She wants a great marriage and this is the first time I can remember her puting in this level of effort. I should probably say something tomorrow about noticing the positive changes and recognizing her effort--I will.

Maybe the great, fulfilling sex life will come in time(no pun intended), but for now I'm not forcing it. I am, however, explaining clearly for the first time the importance of sexual fulfillment to me and explaining the many challenges I face daily in our sexless marriage fighting my feelings of neglect and rejection. I told her that it is very difficult many times to be kind and loving to her when I feel so unloved and rejected.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> @jld actually did do this. And Dug weathered her storm, and became a better husband and father because he had to do more than just turn his back or call her "crazy". He had to get to the depths of her to understand the storms, and he did that by standing tall, unafraid of them.


Allow us to have some doubts as to the magnitude, duration, and frequency of such incidents.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NickTheChemist said:


> Yes, I have been using active listening for s couple of years now. I'm a good listener anyway--I like the approach and it is very effective in all relationships.


Glad to hear you are familiar with it. Now start using it every time she raises her voice to you or otherwise acts out.

Skip the leaving the room stuff, unless you need a break in order to be your best self for her. And then make it clear to her that it is *your* issue, not hers.



> My wife's answers so far to discussions about issues this week are all over the place but most are either of the tone: you're being a selfish jerk, which I interoperate as "I'm losing my power over you". Or of the tone: "you are wonderful, I want all of the amazing things you do for me that I don't deserve."


It sounds like there may be toxic shame involved. If she feels unworthy of you, she is probably struggling with lots of other dark emotions. What a painful, lonely place to be.



> Once she asked what she could do so I reply with what my needs are:
> 1. Respect/admiration
> 2. Peace (in the home)
> 3. Intimacy/sexual fulfillment
> 4. Companionship


Nothing wrong with identifying your needs. Now figure out how to inspire her to meet them.

Iow, *earn* that respect/admiration. Active Listening, or other forms of showing empathy (not necessarily giving in to unreasonable demands) can go far towards earning you the respect you crave.

I have a lot of respect for my husband. His ability to remain calm when I am upset, and to reassure me when I am down on myself, makes me feel so loved and safe with him. His emotional strength makes me want to be physically close to him.

If he were to insist on first "getting his needs met" and use punitive measures like leaving the room when I get angry, I would feel no inspiration at all.



> She is making an effort, and her mood when I get home has been way better (peace in the home). She is trying to thank me more and pay more attention when we talk (admiration)
> And we are talking more and spending quality time together (companionship).


If she is doing any of this out of fear, it is unlikely to last, and could build resentment.

I think inspiring her by first meeting *her* needs is more reliable long term.



> I'm going to continue to encourage the good and speak out against the bad. She wants a great marriage and this is the first time I can remember her puting in this level of effort. I should probably say something tomorrow about noticing the positive changes and recognizing her effort--I will.


I don't have much faith in the reward/punishment system. If you do not work on root issues, all the same problems tend to spring back up, especially in times of stress.



> Maybe the great, fulfilling sex life will come in time(no pun intended), but for now I'm not forcing it. I am, however, explaining clearly for the first time the importance of sexual fulfillment to me and explaining the many challenges I face daily in our sexless marriage fighting my feelings of neglect and rejection. I told her that it is very difficult many times to be kind and loving to her when I feel so unloved and rejected.


I am sure it is hard for her to be intimate when she is not feeling genuinely inspired. 

Btw, fear of losing your mate is *not* genuine inspiration.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> Allow us to have some doubts as to the magnitude, duration, and frequency of such incidents.


 @jld can answer this for herself if she wants to...but in the past she has described very out of control moments of yelling and other angry outbursts, and yes I believe this went on for quite awhile.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> @jld can answer this for herself if she wants to...but in the past she has described very out of control moments of yelling and other angry outbursts, and yes I believe this went on for quite awhile.


From Dug: 

_"The outbursts are not necessarily very long. The worst is not her outbursts. The worst is when jld has stopped talking. Then I know I really have screwed up.

The yelling is her fear. She is scared. That is how most people are when they are yelling.

The best I can do is be calm and certainly not leave the room. That would make the fear even greater. And try to calm her and bring her back to her normal state.

Regarding the frequency, it is directly correlated to how I treat her. Sometimes it is more often than others.

At the end of the day, I have been the source of the anger. The way we have chosen our life, I have a lot of freedom that jld does not have. Being home with 5 kids is mindboggling. I was with 2 last week by myself and they drove me nuts. And that was only for a few days.

When I contribute to the stress, by neglecting her or taking her for granted, all the stress she has contained dealing with the kids just explodes.

I am supposed to be helping her, not stressing her.

Staying at home is not a luxury. It is hard work, maybe more emotional than physical, though maybe more physical when they are small."_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

Sometimes it's more helpful to focus on why - as opposed to whether this is more or less frequent. 

The single most important thing to me - when M2 is angry and coming on strong is this:
1. Is this about me
2. About her
3. About us

Most of this stuff is patterned. More when I land in ORD. 





john117 said:


> Allow us to have some doubts as to the magnitude, duration, and frequency of such incidents.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The issue is frequency, and magnitude, and reason. NormalPeople get angry and yell on occasion, but have the ability to regulate emotions and self soothe, as well as the ability to reflect on the episode and learn from it.

NotNormalPeople don't. 

I will take a NormalPeople raging any time over a NotNormalPeople being mild any time of the day.

There's also the motive, and the ignition period. If anger is the default response, as is typical with NotNormalPeople, then you know.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> The issue is frequency, and magnitude, and reason. NormalPeople get angry and yell on occasion, but have the ability to regulate emotions and self soothe, as well as the ability to reflect on the episode and learn from it.
> 
> NotNormalPeople don't.
> 
> ...


Some people are certainly more difficult than others, john. I have known a few women I would not advise anyone, or at least anyone I cared about, to marry.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

So it can be the woman's fault on occasion 😎


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> So it can be the woman's fault on occasion 😎


Some women are higher quality marriage material than others. A wise man will be discerning.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> I think I have seen a wee bit more of the dark side of human behavior...
> 
> It's hard to lead when the other side screams.


Exactly - had this issue with my wife several years ago. Our kids were around 1-2 years old, and she would just rage about everything. Driving - she'd lose it if I couldn't find a place to park. Cleaning or feeding kids - said I didn't do it right and that she needed to do it all herself. If she had the kids for over a half-hour by herself, she'd be all over me saying that the kids are driving her nuts and she's not getting any help (after I had them all day the prior day with no problems). She couldn't trust me to do anything, but was upset if I had to work a little later than usual. 

My problem was that I was a nice guy - don't rock the boat, try to get things just right. Of course, that didn't work - she'd just find more stuff to scream about. It got to the point where she get mad at me over things that she did (like getting mad at me when she left some of the kids stuff at the sitter's house - how it was my fault is still beyond me).

Helped when I started to call her out on her behavior. Things aren't perfect now, but I don't get yelled at when I have to work late and a spilled cup of water is no longer the trigger for her exploding. Needed to learn to bite back when appropriate.

ETA - is your wife insecure (this may have been asked already)? Usually this behavior is a mask for their insecurities. My wife is very insecure, and she'd never get upset if anyone else spilled a cup of water. If I did it, that would cause an explosion. She worries about people liking her, but with me she didn't care - I'm her husband. If I had called her out right away, a lot of this would have been nipped in the bud.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Some women are higher quality marriage material than others. A wise man will be discerning.


I'll check Carfax next time...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

john117 said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> > Some women are higher quality marriage material than others. A wise man will be discerning.
> ...


This... is really funny.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

NickTheChemist said:


> Yes, I have been using active listening for s couple of years now. I'm a good listener anyway--I like the approach and it is very effective in all relationships.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Getting snipped may just bring some fun back into things, one less thing to worry about. Just saying...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

crocus said:


> Getting snipped may just bring some fun back into things, one less thing to worry about. Just saying...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol, Yeah, I'm getting snipped next month and should be shooting blanks by September


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

You are assuming a lot about me here that isn't true. Still, thank you for your input.


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

sokillme said:


> I am in my my 40s. My wifes family was pretty normal. She has your normal issues.
> 
> Now let me ask you a question. If you yelled and screamed at Dug every day because you were having a bad day and he just let you do that for years would he still be the man who you talk about so glowingly? Or do you think maybe you would have lost all respect for him after watching him allowing you abuse him so?


Wow. Perspective. This is what I have let happen and sex is a manipulative tool. Lack of sexual intimacy without good reason and constant rejection kills s man's self worth over the years in a marriage.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

People treat you like you let them.

A good relationship is balanced @ 50/50

If you do to much you often get taken advantage of and lose respect.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

NickTheChemist said:


> Wow. Perspective. This is what I have let happen and sex is a manipulative tool. Lack of sexual intimacy without good reason and constant rejection kills s man's self worth over the years in a marriage.




Birth control is a good reason to not want sex, fear of getting pregnant when already overwhelmed. It's valid. Birth control such as the pill can also affect sex drive. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

I don't mean to be harsh, Nick.
Your kids are 4,2,and 2 months. Sex 5 times in the past year, which resulted in baby number 3. Was it planed?
She is at home with 3 kids. It's gonna be tough for 5 years. 
The youngest is 2 months old.
It's going to be a year before all 3 kids can be self mobile.
My question would be the timing of your plan?
After you get snipped, and the youngest is well established in a routine.
Even then, you may have to accept the facts ...there are going to 3 reasons why things aren't always peaceful, she is going to be tired at times, and there will be 3 possible interruptions to YOUR expectations.
For like...the next 15 years.




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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

crocus said:


> Birth control is a good reason to not want sex, fear of getting pregnant when already overwhelmed. It's valid. Birth control such as the pill can also affect sex drive.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



So true. The pill killed her drive--she hasn't used hormonal control for a long time. I am patient. Maybe knowing that we can't get pregnant again will be liberating snd s much needed bump in the sex life--we'll see.


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

john117 said:


> I'll check Carfax next time...


Lol 😂😂😂


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

jld said:


> I think Active Listening could be the shortcut. Are you familiar with it?
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt the "calling her out" approach is going to spark sexual desire in her. Probably will shut her down even more.



Of course it will. Nobody wants to **** a doormat.


OP- 
Don't give up your dignity in exchange for hoping for sex from her. That's a bargain that will result in less and less of what you want and escalating bad behavior from her over time. 

You need to enforce boundaries and expect that she act like an adult and treat you reasonably. 
Don't be a jerk, but call her out on her nasty behaviors. 

Over the long term this will increase her attraction to you. And if it doesn't, at least you will not feel trapped in a loosing bargain hoping for scraps in exchange for putting up with verbal abuse.


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