# Do women lack empathy for men?



## Faithful Wife

Specifically, this was about sexual topics from a thread down in SIM (Cletus's incompatibility thread).

It was described by one woman as va-clang....when your vag shuts down due to a man's neediness (or vulnerability?) 

I don't feel this way so it is very curious to me. I have only heard women online discuss this phenomenon, never in person, so I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts about it who is willing to contribute.

I'm sure a lot of men feel that women lack empathy toward men in general (and this is frequently stated by the anti-feminist crowd)....but I was mainly interested in hearing about how it affects the sexual dynamic.

However....this being TAM, people will respond however they want. :laugh:


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## Mr The Other

Faithful Wife said:


> Specifically, this was about sexual topics from a thread down in SIM (Cletus's incompatibility thread).
> 
> It was described by one woman as va-clang....when your vag shuts down due to a man's neediness (or vulnerability?)
> 
> I don't feel this way so it is very curious to me. I have only heard women online discuss this phenomenon, never in person, so I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts about it who is willing to contribute.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of men feel that women lack empathy toward men in general (and this is frequently stated by the anti-feminist crowd)....but I was mainly interested in hearing about how it affects the sexual dynamic.
> 
> However....this being TAM, people will respond however they want. :laugh:


I think we look for out partners to provide what we lack. Not many of us would say no to more joy and happiness, so they are great. Neuroses on the other hand are something we can only have too many of us.

I think it is hard to feel empathy for men, as men are view as agents of will rather than passive experience. The expectation is that they should act rather than feel. Of course, if you actually are a man, it is easy, which is why the most empathy I will experience as a man is from other men. That does not mean that women have less empthy at all, just that men are less sympathetic (as in harder to feel sympathy for).

Just my ignorance and experience. Nothing more.


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## Notself

In my experience, women SAY they want a vulnerable man. They SAY that emotional men turn them on. But when the rubber hits the road ... well, va-clang. YMMV.

I have had my bouts with depression and neediness, which have of course done me no favors. But asking for emotional support in even a mature way has gotten me nothing but va-clang and annoyed partners.


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## GTdad

I can't attribute this to all women by any means, but I know first-hand that to show vulnerability to my otherwise kind and empathetic wife is a certain fail. The very few times, as in, count them on one hand, I revealed some pretty deep angst about something (a severe depression after dealing with a long-term illness, or our daughter's date-rape), it was very clear that she didn't want to hear it.

But as long as I'm stoic or funny, I'm golden. I've decided to follow that path for now and save any vulnerability for the internet.


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## WildMustang

While I love and need a strong, protective, dominant man, I also recognize we are all human and we all have feelings. I don't need or want my man to pretend he is some kind of machine without feelings, nor would I be attracted to that. It would actually turn me off if I were in a close, sexual, intimate relationship with a man and he could not open up to me and be intimate with me and allow himself to be fully seen by me. Such a dynamic would also hinder me from feeling safe in being completely vulnerable and fully "seen" by him.

It would affect our sex life in a negative way.

I have loads and loads of empathy for men. I don't understand women who don't. It truly baffles me to read that some women don't? Makes me wonder if the women who don't have empathy for men is due to conditioning of the current sex wars or modern feminism. I don't know...just wondering out loud, trying to make sense of it. It seems bizarre to me.

Do such women not realize how tough it is to be a man, especially in this day????

Yes, I know it is also hard to be a woman in today's world, as I am a woman and I live it daily, hourly. But the topic I am addressing is the idea that women don't have empathy for men.

It's a tough world we live in. When I am in a relationship, it's us against the world. I have his back and he has mine. I am a safe port of refuge for him, a safe place for him to land and be fed, watered, loved, nurtured, adored, cherished, thoroughly f*cked, built back up when the world beats him down, so he can again go out into the world and fight the good fight. 

I have a pretty wide submissive streak in me, so perhaps that helps explain it as another poster mentioned. Or maybe I just have a lot of natural empathy and compassion for both men and women anyway, who knows?


This was my response in that thread. I just copied and pasted it into this one as I have nothing more to add at the moment other than this.


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## username77

Nothing would dry my STBXW up faster than me showing any real emotion or vulnerability. In fact if I was anything but superman who could fix everything just by my awesomeness she would lose all desire for me. I had to be a rock emotionally, fix and take care of all internal issues in the family or there would be no emotional connection between us, or sex for me.

I think my STBXW wanted a father more than a husband.

I don't know if this is women lacking empathy, or just thousands of years of societal evolution still factoring into the equation. 1000 years ago with barbarians at the gate you couldn't be married to a sniveling weakling, you wouldn't want children with that. You needed a strong, stoic man, who let nothing get to him. I think a lot of that is still at play for women even if they don't realize it. It wasn't that long ago that mankind conquered the jungle. It takes a long time for our evolution and biology to catch up to the advances we're making as a race and society.


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## Notself

username77 said:


> I don't know if this is women lacking empathy, or just thousands of years of societal evolution still factoring into the equation.


This is a good point about societal evolution. Even two generations ago, a married woman's societal role was entirely, 100% different than it is today. However, even today women still expect men to be stoic, protective breadwinners.


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## Maxwedge 413

To Op's question,"Do women lack empathy for men?". No. Healthy women, in healthy relationships, with healthy men, do NOT lack empathy. My wife knows that I work hard to keep money in the bank, keep the large yard mowed and the large driveway shovelled in winter. And I feel comforted when I need to vent about work stress or physical pain. I know she sees me as her strong man, and also will care for me like a child if I'm hurt.

I see an alarmingly increasing # of threads on this and other forums, relating to how women are cold, unfeeling creatures preying on men. In my 45 years, numerous romances and 2 marriages, I have seen that everyone needs to give and receive love and empathy. Unfortunately through nurture or nature, some peple just have poor to no relationship skills. Just because you, Mr Man, can't find a woman that fits your "Ideal" (usually a woman that looks and acts like his mom but wants to **** him all the time), does not mean that women are evil. And to you Miss Priss, just because the men you meet at bars or online want to see how far they can get, doesn't mean all men are pigs. 

Everyone wants love and companionship. Many don't know how to express themselves. Many of those were never taught how to give praise or receive affection. And some just cannot be fixed. But you cannot place blanket statements about 50% of the population , based on your limited experience.


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## NextTimeAround

I like to think that I am empathic. But I have learned that once you nurse a man back to emotional health, they up and leave. Seems like they don't want to be around the one who was around when they hit rock bottom. 

I guess really what people would be looking for is simply tough love. When someone's hit rock bottom, they need a plan and they need to execute it.


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## ConanHub

Va-clang? Love the term.

Showing what could be perceived as wimpy or pathetic behavior causes Mrs. Conan's V to clang shut but not real emotions or being vulnerable to her.

I rarely cry but on the occasions I have, she melts and sex has definitely still been on the menu.

She doesn't deal well with depression but neither do I so we're pretty even in that aspect.

She is also not above giving me nookie when I'm a little down, under the weather or just feeling a little frisky when she isn't.


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## Faithful Wife

Maxwedge 413 said:


> To Op's question,"Do women lack empathy for men?". No. Healthy women, in healthy relationships, with healthy men, do NOT lack empathy. My wife knows that I work hard to keep money in the bank, keep the large yard mowed and the large driveway shovelled in winter. And I feel comforted when I need to vent about work stress or physical pain. I know she sees me as her strong man, and also will care for me like a child if I'm hurt.
> 
> I see an alarmingly increasing # of threads on this and other forums, relating to how women are cold, unfeeling creatures preying on men. In my 45 years, numerous romances and 2 marriages, I have seen that everyone needs to give and receive love and empathy. Unfortunately through nurture or nature, some peple just have poor to no relationship skills. Just because you, Mr Man, can't find a woman that fits your "Ideal" (usually a woman that looks and acts like his mom but wants to **** him all the time), does not mean that women are evil. And to you Miss Priss, just because the men you meet at bars or online want to see how far they can get, doesn't mean all men are pigs.
> 
> Everyone wants love and companionship. Many don't know how to express themselves. Many of those were never taught how to give praise or receive affection. And some just cannot be fixed. But you cannot place blanket statements about 50% of the population , based on your limited experience.


This is how I've felt in relationships (mutual nurturing and empathy). It was only because I have read so many men at TAM describe a lack of empathy from their woman, plus some women at TAM agreeing that feeling empathy for a man turns them off, that prompted me to start this discussion.

It's completely foreign to me, but fascinating.


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## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> Va-clang? Love the term.
> 
> Showing what could be perceived as wimpy or pathetic behavior causes Mrs. Conan's V to clang shut but not real emotions or being vulnerable to her.
> 
> I rarely cry but on the occasions I have, she melts and sex has definitely still been on the menu.
> 
> She doesn't deal well with depression but neither do I so we're pretty even in that aspect.
> 
> She is also not above giving me nookie when I'm a little down, under the weather or just feeling a little frisky when she isn't.


Va-clang courtesy of Getting It.


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## GettingIt_2

Faithful Wife said:


> Specifically, this was about sexual topics from a thread down in SIM (Cletus's incompatibility thread).
> 
> It was described by one woman as va-clang....when your vag shuts down due to a man's neediness (or vulnerability?)
> 
> I don't feel this way so it is very curious to me. I have only heard women online discuss this phenomenon, never in person, so I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts about it who is willing to contribute.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of men feel that women lack empathy toward men in general (and this is frequently stated by the anti-feminist crowd)....but I was mainly interested in hearing about how it affects the sexual dynamic.
> 
> However....this being TAM, people will respond however they want. :laugh:


I brought the "Va-clang" into the discussion on Cletus' thread, so I do feel compelled to comment. 

I don't lack empathy towards men in general. But I will say that that emotion, in regards to men, takes back seat behind a lot of other emotions when it comes to sexual attraction and how I respond to men. 

As far as being empathetic with my husband when he is sick, hurt, has suffered a loss and and is grieving, etc. I can and do feel much empathy. That's not what I was referring to with the va-clange comment. 

When I tend to feel less empathy towards men in general is when I perceive they are showing emotional weakness. And I will say that that feeling can flow over into how I feel about my husband, although as I mentioned before, I do try to show empathy even when I'm not feeling it. Because everyone has a bad day or goes through a rough patch now and again. 

But yeah, I'll cop to having probably a lower tolerance than average for emotional neediness in a man--even when it's occasional, even when it's probably understandable. I just love a man who has his **** together. If my husband needs to vent, he's better off looking for a buddy to go have a beer with. Lucky for me he's pretty good at sorting his "daily life" crap without my help. I'll listen to a point, and then I'm apt to start pointing out ways that he might have avoided getting to this point in the first place.


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## Faithful Wife

GTdad said:


> I can't attribute this to all women by any means, but I know first-hand that to show vulnerability to my otherwise kind and empathetic wife is a certain fail. The very few times, as in, count them on one hand, I revealed some pretty deep angst about something (a severe depression after dealing with a long-term illness, or our daughter's date-rape), it was very clear that she didn't want to hear it.
> 
> But as long as I'm stoic or funny, I'm golden. I've decided to follow that path for now and save any vulnerability for the internet.


It makes me sad with empathy just reading this.

Do you think this would make you vulnerable to the attention from a woman who was nurturing and a shoulder to you?

Do you have sisters or other women in your life who are nurturing?


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## GettingIt_2

Faithful Wife said:


> Va-clang courtesy of Getting It.


And courtesy, before me, of a poster on the MMSL forums.


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## GTdad

Faithful Wife said:


> It makes me sad with empathy just reading this.
> 
> Do you think this would make you vulnerable to the attention from a woman who was nurturing and a shoulder to you?
> 
> Do you have sisters or other women in your life who are nurturing?


Thanks. I appreciate it but no, I don't consider myself vulnerable on that score; I'm tragically hip and monogamous. 

Interesting that you ask about other women in my life, since my mom's much like my wife in that regard. I can't really say to what extent other women I know may handle the "deep" stuff that I gave examples of.


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## Faithful Wife

GettingIt_2 said:


> But yeah, I'll cop to having probably a lower tolerance than average for emotional neediness in a man--even when it's occasional, even when it's probably understandable. I just love a man who has his **** together. If my husband needs to vent, he's better off looking for a buddy to go have a beer with. Lucky for me he's pretty good at sorting his "daily life" crap without my help. I'll listen to a point, and then I'm apt to start pointing out ways that he might have avoided getting to this point in the first place.


If my man was experiencing a problem that was on going and I had already helped in any way I could, I would eventually tire of hearing about the problem and would tell him so. Men I've been with would do the same to me if I had a problem that I just talked about repeatedly without solving it.

That seems normal and not lacking empathy but rather just valuing our own time and not wanting to spend energy on complaining or hearing someone complain.

It still wouldn't va-clang me though, I'd just say "shut up and jump me" if I was randy. 

I appreciate your perspective and was hoping you'd join this thread as it fascinates me.


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## WildMustang

GTdad said:


> I can't attribute this to all women by any means, but I know first-hand that to show vulnerability to my otherwise kind and empathetic wife is a certain fail. The very few times, as in, count them on one hand, I revealed some pretty deep angst about something (a severe depression after dealing with a long-term illness, or our daughter's date-rape), it was very clear that she didn't want to hear it.
> 
> But as long as I'm stoic or funny, I'm golden. I've decided to follow that path for now and save any vulnerability for the internet.


Just to be clear, I hit the like button on your post because I am glad you have this place to expose your vulnerability and still be seen, highly respected, accepted and loved.

I am sorry you don't have that with your wife!


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## GTdad

WildMustang said:


> Just to be clear, I hit the like button on your post because I am glad you have this place to expose your vulnerability and still be highly respected, accepted and loved.


Well, "highly" may be putting too fine a point on it but thank you, that's very nice of you to say.


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## GettingIt_2

Faithful Wife said:


> If my man was experiencing a problem that was on going and I had already helped in any way I could, I would eventually tire of hearing about the problem and would tell him so. Men I've been with would do the same to me if I had a problem that I just talked about repeatedly without solving it.
> 
> That seems normal and not lacking empathy but rather just valuing our own time and not wanting to spend energy on complaining or hearing someone complain.
> 
> It still wouldn't va-clang me though, I'd just say "shut up and jump me" if I was randy.
> 
> I appreciate your perspective and was hoping you'd join this thread as it fascinates me.


Yeah, it does affect sexual attraction in my case. Maybe more so than the average woman? I don't really know. It does erode the respect I feel (and LOVE to feel because it's such a turn on) towards men. I realize that I tend to set the bar too high when it comes to this issue, but I'm cognizant of it and really work hard to make sure I'm not being a *****. It goes back to my high desire for dominance in a sexual partner, both and out of the bedroom.

Actually, when I think about it, I have a pretty low bar for emotional neediness in women, too, but I tolerate it much better in my female friends and relatives because I lack sexual attraction towards them, so my feelings towards them are just less negatively impacted overall.


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## WildMustang

GTdad said:


> Well, "highly" may be putting too fine a point on it but thank you, that's very nice of you to say.


Well, I "highly respect" men who still have the ability to be vulnerable, (a rare trait in men today, and for good reason, as it is not accepted by many), even if only on the internet (because that is their only outlet), especially since it is common today for vulnerability to be squelched out of men. To still be able to be even a little bit vulnerable in this environment (society today) speaks volumes about your true strength. I find that "highly admirable" and "highly respectable."

It must be so hard to be a man.


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## Amplexor

From Dennis Miller's Master List of what what we do and don't want from women.

Item Nine: Don't ask us to cry. As much as you say you want us to cry, you don't really want us to cry. You hate it when we cry. I've tried crying in front of my wife. She enjoyed it for about thirty seconds and then started thinking, "Why in the **** did I marry this hamster?"


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## Faithful Wife

GettingIt_2 said:


> Yeah, it does affect sexual attraction in my case. Maybe more so than the average woman? I don't really know. It does erode the respect I feel (and LOVE to feel because it's such a turn on) towards men. I realize that I tend to set the bar too high when it comes to this issue, but I'm cognizant of it and really work hard to make sure I'm not being a *****. It goes back to my high desire for dominance in a sexual partner, both and out of the bedroom.
> 
> Actually, when I think about it, I have a pretty low bar for emotional neediness in women, too, but I tolerate it much better in my female friends and relatives because I lack sexual attraction towards them, so my feelings towards them are just less negatively impacted overall.


I guess it's hard for me to imagine what others may see as emotional neediness. I've known people who were needy constantly, both men and women, and heck yes they are all a turn off to me, even if I could enjoy their friendship and have some amount of empathy for their issues. But I've never been with a man who acted what I'd call "needy" so I'm not even sure we are talking about the same thing.

All of the men I've been with have deep emotional needs and have shared their vulnerabilities me, and yet none have been "needy". As I said...I've known truly needy men but never partnered with one. I guess I wouldn't know where the va-clang line would be between needs and needy because I've never experienced it.


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## Faithful Wife

Amplexor said:


> From Dennis Miller's Master List of what what we do and don't want from women.
> 
> Item Nine: Don't ask us to cry. As much as you say you want us to cry, you don't really want us to cry. You hate it when we cry. I've tried crying in front of my wife. She enjoyed it for about thirty seconds and then started thinking, "Why in the **** did I marry this hamster?"


If I never saw a man I was partnered with cry, even at times that would be completely expected, I would think he was a zombie and would lose attraction for him just based on that.


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## Luvher4life

"Va-clang" will not be tolerated in my household! :whip:

I wear the pants in our house!:bringiton:

When my wife lets me...

Good grief! How does any long term relationship work if there is not empathy for the other person in the relationship? I would never marry a gatekeeper, nor one that uses sex as a bargaining chip. It just wouldn't work for me.


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## Faithful Wife

Luvher4life said:


> "Va-clang" will not be tolerated in my household! :whip:
> 
> I wear the pants in our house!:bringiton:
> 
> When my wife lets me...
> 
> Good grief! How does any long term relationship work if there is not empathy for the other person in the relationship? *I would never marry a gatekeeper, nor one that uses sex as a bargaining chip.* It just wouldn't work for me.


Hmmm...I don't get the feeling that the women who lack empathy in the way this thread is describing are gatekeepers or whatever. I think they are talking about their attraction to a man, specifically. As in, "if I view you as weak, then va-clang". Not "run through these burning hoops to prove you are worthy of sex". Though maybe that's kind of the same thing? I don't really know but gatekeeping wasn't what it sounded like to me.


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## GettingIt_2

Faithful Wife said:


> I guess it's hard for me to imagine what others may see as emotional neediness. I've known people who were needy constantly, both men and women, and heck yes they are all a turn off to me, even if I could enjoy their friendship and have some amount of empathy for their issues. But I've never been with a man who acted what I'd call "needy" so I'm not even sure we are talking about the same thing.
> 
> All of the men I've been with have deep emotional needs and have shared their vulnerabilities me, and yet none have been "needy". As I said...I've known truly needy men but never partnered with one. I guess I wouldn't know where the va-clang line would be between needs and needy because I've never experienced it.


I think @Fozzy put it really well in his comment on Cletus' thread: 



Fozzy said:


> I think this is in the eye of the beholder. Like so many things, there's a huge spectrum of what's perceived as having needs vs being needy. It would seem that some view having any needs at all (especially of the emotional variety) as being needy.


Neediness IS in the eye of the beholder. I've only ever been in a meaningful relationships with one man--my husband--so although he's not a needy person, he has, at times, felt "needy" to me. But as I said, no one is a robot, and every human, at some point, exhibits "needy" behavior. 

When behavior seems needy *TO ME*, I do notice a dip in my sexual attraction towards that person. And since I'm monogamous with my husband . . . . said dip ONLY matters in my relationships with him. However, I do feel a subconscious VA CLANG when I see certain behavior out of men, whether it be in online forums, on TV, or in real life. 

I don't know. Maybe I process/sort men based on sexual attraction/fitness more readily than most women? Maybe I'm just more cognizant of it?


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## WildMustang

GettingIt_2 said:


> Yeah, it does affect sexual attraction in my case. Maybe more so than the average woman? I don't really know. It does erode the respect I feel (and LOVE to feel because it's such a turn on) towards men. I realize that I tend to set the bar too high when it comes to this issue, but I'm cognizant of it and really work hard to make sure I'm not being a *****. It goes back to my high desire for dominance in a sexual partner, both and out of the bedroom.
> 
> Actually, when I think about it, I have a pretty low bar for emotional neediness in women, too, but I tolerate it much better in my female friends and relatives because I lack sexual attraction towards them, so my feelings towards them are just less negatively impacted overall.


Thank you for sharing your views on this. It is very helpful and enlightening to me.

Like you, I am incredibly turned on sexually by a strong, dominant partner. I am naturally pretty submissive and feminine so there is that polarity/pull/attraction of yin and yang, masculine and feminine.

BUT, and this I think is where we differ, I find men to be *even MORE strong, MORE confident, MORE masculine, when they can drop all the pretenses -be vulnerable, be "TRULY seen", be differentiated, and be okay with that, because they are confident in the nakedness of their TRUE selves. *

To me, that is true strength, true masculinity.

I equate the ability to be vulnerable, to be seen, with strength.

And I find strength incredibly sexy. 

Irresistibly sexy.

Drop my panties to the floor in a nanosecond, sexy!


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## GettingIt_2

Luvher4life said:


> "Va-clang" will not be tolerated in my household! :whip:
> 
> I wear the pants in our house!:bringiton:
> 
> When my wife lets me...
> 
> Good grief! How does any long term relationship work if there is not empathy for the other person in the relationship? I would never marry a gatekeeper, nor one that uses sex as a bargaining chip. It just wouldn't work for me.


Just to be clear, I never use my emotions or my level of attraction as an excuse to gatekeep sex. I prefer to be highly sexually attracted to my husband all the time--not just when we are having sex. So I tend to keep tabs on every.little.thing that causes my attraction to peak and dip. And then I'm proactive to make sure there aren't dips. 

Life is just more fun if you walk around turned on all the time! Plus, my husband seems to prefer that I'm not glowering at him while he's ****ing me.


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## GettingIt_2

WildMustang said:


> Thank you for sharing your views on this. It is very helpful and enlightening to me.
> 
> Like you, I am incredibly turned on sexually by a strong, dominant partner. I am naturally pretty submissive and feminine so there is that polarity/pull/attraction of yin and yang, masculine and feminine.
> 
> BUT, and this I think is where we differ, I find men to be even *MORE strong, MORE confident, MORE masculine,* when they can drop all the pretenses -be vulnerable, be "TRULY seen", be differentiated, and be okay with that, because they are confident in the nakedness of their TRUE selves.
> 
> To me, that is true strength, true masculinity.
> 
> I equate the ability to be vulnerable, to be seen, with strength.
> 
> And I find strength incredibly sexy.
> 
> Irresistibly sexy.
> 
> Drop my panties to the floor in a nanosecond, sexy!


I don't see the ability to be vulnerable (a positive trait) with that of emotional neediness. I want to know what my husband is feeling . . . I just don't want to feel that I'm responsible to fix it, or that he is feeling incapable of figuring it out, or that he finds it preferable to ***** about it, but do nothing to improve the situation for himself. 
Again, he's not someone who acts like this on a regular basis. I think most people don't. My point is that I just seem to have reallllyyyy low tolerance for the behavior AT ALL. 

I think perhaps it does come down to personal responsibility: Ok, so you feel bad. What are you going to DO about it?


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## sokillme

Faithful Wife said:


> Specifically, this was about sexual topics from a thread down in SIM (Cletus's incompatibility thread).
> 
> It was described by one woman as va-clang....when your vag shuts down due to a man's neediness (or vulnerability?)
> 
> I don't feel this way so it is very curious to me. I have only heard women online discuss this phenomenon, never in person, so I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts about it who is willing to contribute.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of men feel that women lack empathy toward men in general (and this is frequently stated by the anti-feminist crowd)....but I was mainly interested in hearing about how it affects the sexual dynamic.
> 
> However....this being TAM, people will respond however they want. :laugh:


Today's you deserve it all society lacks empathy in general. However if you marry well both spouses have empathy for each other.

Part of this gender issue at least in my mind is the false idea that men an women are the same, in thinking, wants and desires. In my experience this is generally not true, or course there are standard things that all humans desire. Understanding that your spouse may not have the same priorities as you do, and may prioritize different aspects of the relationship more then you do, many times because of their gender, can lead to a better marriage. 

This doesn't have to be gender specific by the way. Humans naturally have different priorities. I think you are better served to think of your marriage as you giving yourself to someone as apposed to you getting something from someone. If both spouses start from that point they have a much better chance.


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## Rowan

I have a tremendous amount of empathy for most people in general. That said, I've grown into the sort of person who doesn't tolerate emotional instability very well in a partner. True vulnerability, grief, stress, anger, sadness, real emotion, even deeply felt and frightening ones, do not bother me. In fact, I love and really appreciate when my SO can be vulnerable and emotionally honest with me. But if angst turns into fretting, whining, fitfulness, pouting, lashing out, anything that screams 'lack of emotional awareness and control', I tend to back way off. Everyone has their moments, but in general a high degree of instability and emotionality on an ongoing basis is a turn-off for me. Neuroses are not sexy. Emotional instability (of a pervasive and lasting nature) is not sexy. 

Perhaps part of it is that I have spent years teaching my son how to regulate his emotions, talking him down when he's anxious, nurturing him when he's sad or lonely or angry, showing him constructive ways to express and deal with this feelings. I'm a great mom, but I don't want to fill that role for my sexual/romantic partners. I associate that with my son, not a lover. I much prefer it when a partner provides his own emotional stability, with me as backup and support. In turn, I provide my own emotional stability, asking for only support from my partner.


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## samyeagar

GTdad said:


> Thanks. I appreciate it but no, I don't consider myself vulnerable on that score; I'm tragically hip and monogamous.
> 
> Interesting that you ask about other women in my life, since my mom's much like my wife in that regard. I can't really say to what extent other women I know may handle the "deep" stuff that I gave examples of.


It been pretty much my experience with the important women in my life as well. I have learned to pick what vulnerabilities I expose very carefully. I can think of two times that I have shown emotional weakness to my wife, and while she was not crappy or anything about it, she made it clear she wanted it shut down and didn't want to deal with it.


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## sokillme

Maxwedge 413 said:


> To Op's question,"Do women lack empathy for men?". No. Healthy women, in healthy relationships, with healthy men, do NOT lack empathy. My wife knows that I work hard to keep money in the bank, keep the large yard mowed and the large driveway shovelled in winter. And I feel comforted when I need to vent about work stress or physical pain. I know she sees me as her strong man, and also will care for me like a child if I'm hurt.
> 
> I see an alarmingly increasing # of threads on this and other forums, relating to how women are cold, unfeeling creatures preying on men. In my 45 years, numerous romances and 2 marriages, I have seen that everyone needs to give and receive love and empathy. Unfortunately through nurture or nature, some peple just have poor to no relationship skills. Just because you, Mr Man, can't find a woman that fits your "Ideal" (usually a woman that looks and acts like his mom but wants to **** him all the time), does not mean that women are evil. And to you Miss Priss, just because the men you meet at bars or online want to see how far they can get, doesn't mean all men are pigs.
> 
> Everyone wants love and companionship. Many don't know how to express themselves. Many of those were never taught how to give praise or receive affection. And some just cannot be fixed. But you cannot place blanket statements about 50% of the population , based on your limited experience.


I think this is true. Unfortunately I think western culture has perpetuated a very selfish society in the last 40 years. Selfishness and marriage don't go together well.


----------



## sokillme

I think we are talking about two things. Exposing vulnerability which I would equate to emotional neediness, or being overly emotional to the point of weakness, which in my experience women don't really like to see in men unless it's their sons (which they will overlook). It should be said that men don't like to see it in other men. For whatever reason social or genetic men are expected to be strong physically and emotionally. Most of us men an women seem to be turned off when men don't follow the norm. 

The other is having empathy, which I think plenty of healthy women have for their husbands. I DO think women like emotional intelligence. A lot of time men mistake being able to talk about emotion or emotional things with being vulnerable or weak. One can express their emotions or talk about their emotions and actually project strength in doing so. It's a fine line though.


----------



## uhtred

I think that as with many things, its easy for the fantasy of emotional vulnerability / openness to be confused with the reality. 

I doubt many woman would be bothered if their partner sheds a tear after holding his father's hand as he dies.

OTOH, someone who is alternately angry, crying, withdrawn, and randomly lashing out etc because they have been emotionally drained by caring for a parent with Alzheimer's is unlikely to be appealing, not matter how much they may intellectually understand why they are behaving that way.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Rowan said:


> I much prefer it when a partner provides his own emotional stability, with me as backup and support. In turn, I provide my own emotional stability, asking for only support from my partner.


Upon first reading this, I was like, "Yeah, THAT's what my marriage is like!"

But then after I thought about it a bit, I realized I'd have to qualify that how my husband and I "ask for support" differs, and that I wouldn't want to give him support in the way that he offers it to me. 

Sometimes after a stressful day (nothing tragic, just daily stress) , I just ask him to hold me while I cry it out. 

It would NOT go over well if he asked me to do that for him. 

What he often needs after a stressful day and space and time to unwind in his own fashion, and I very much try to give that to him, even if it means I have to do a little more or forgo time with him.


----------



## sokillme

Faithful Wife said:


> This is how I've felt in relationships (mutual nurturing and empathy). It was only because I have read so many men at TAM describe a lack of empathy from their woman, plus some women at TAM agreeing that feeling empathy for a man turns them off, that prompted me to start this discussion.
> 
> It's completely foreign to me, but fascinating.


But in the other thread when I brought up the idea of nurturing weren't you the one who wrote the Va-Clang comment?

_*Never mind I see it wasn't you. *_

I was the one who precipitated the comment. My statement was maybe wives could see having sex with their husband some times as nurturing them. It wasn't really meant to be about emotional nurturing though. 

My point in that thread is there is a long history in soul music of men singing to their mate asking them to have sex with them to nurture them because they had a hard day. So this is not really a new idea. The best example would be "Sexual Healing by Marvin Gaye". 

It is no surprise that Men use sex as a stress reliever, which is interesting as I find many women feel stressed about sex with their man. 

Also no offense but many people on TAM have had terrible relationship with terrible spouses, and this is their only point of view, so of course they are going to think like this. Many are also not very good at relationships.


----------



## Faithful Wife

sokillme said:


> But in the other thread when I brought up the idea of nurturing weren't you the one who wrote the Va-Clang comment?
> 
> .


Nope.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rowan said:


> I have a tremendous amount of empathy for most people in general. That said, I've grown into the sort of person who doesn't tolerate emotional instability very well in a partner. True vulnerability, grief, stress, anger, sadness, real emotion, even deeply felt and frightening ones, do not bother me. In fact, I love and really appreciate when my SO can be vulnerable and emotionally honest with me. But if angst turns into fretting, whining, fitfulness, pouting, lashing out, anything that screams 'lack of emotional awareness and control', I tend to back way off. Everyone has their moments, but in general a high degree of instability and emotionality on an ongoing basis is a turn-off for me. Neuroses are not sexy. Emotional instability (of a pervasive and lasting nature) is not sexy.
> 
> Perhaps part of it is that I have spent years teaching my son how to regulate his emotions, talking him down when he's anxious, nurturing him when he's sad or lonely or angry, showing him constructive ways to express and deal with this feelings. I'm a great mom, but I don't want to fill that role for my sexual/romantic partners. I associate that with my son, not a lover. I much prefer it when a partner provides his own emotional stability, with me as backup and support. In turn, I provide my own emotional stability, asking for only support from my partner.


Totally with ya....I guess I've just never experienced a man do this: "*angst turns into fretting, whining, fitfulness, pouting, lashing out, anything that screams 'lack of emotional awareness and control*". If I did experience that, yeah then va-clang. I would think any man I've been with would feel the same about a woman exhibiting the bolded things.

So I'm guessing that you and others *have* experienced this in a male partner?


----------



## farsidejunky

GettingIt_2 said:


> I brought the "Va-clang" into the discussion on Cletus' thread, so I do feel compelled to comment.
> 
> I don't lack empathy towards men in general. But I will say that that emotion, in regards to men, takes back seat behind a lot of other emotions when it comes to sexual attraction and how I respond to men.
> 
> As far as being empathetic with my husband when he is sick, hurt, has suffered a loss and and is grieving, etc. I can and do feel much empathy. That's not what I was referring to with the va-clange comment.
> 
> When I tend to feel less empathy towards men in general is when I perceive they are showing emotional weakness. And I will say that that feeling can flow over into how I feel about my husband, although as I mentioned before, I do try to show empathy even when I'm not feeling it. Because everyone has a bad day or goes through a rough patch now and again.
> 
> But yeah, I'll cop to having probably a lower tolerance than average for emotional neediness in a man--even when it's occasional, even when it's probably understandable. I just love a man who has his **** together. If my husband needs to vent, he's better off looking for a buddy to go have a beer with. Lucky for me he's pretty good at sorting his "daily life" crap without my help. I'll listen to a point, and then I'm apt to start pointing out ways that he might have avoided getting to this point in the first place.


Does the lack of emotional strength rev up your insecurities? In other words, does it feel destabilizing to you?


----------



## FrenchFry

uhtred said:


> I think that as with many things, its easy for the fantasy of emotional vulnerability / openness to be confused with the reality.
> 
> I doubt many woman would be bothered if their partner sheds a tear after holding his father's hand as he dies.
> 
> OTOH, someone who is alternately angry, crying, withdrawn, and randomly lashing out etc because they have been emotionally drained by caring for a parent with Alzheimer's is unlikely to be appealing, not matter how much they may intellectually understand why they are behaving that way.


Appealing is one thing. I would 100% be (and have been) empathetic in that situation.

I have low empathy for men in the aggregate but high tolerance for my husband. It's one of my main attractions toward him-I don't like stoicism in my partner.


----------



## sokillme

GettingIt_2 said:


> Upon first reading this, I was like, "Yeah, THAT's what my marriage is like!"
> 
> But then after I thought about it a bit, I realized I'd have to qualify that how my husband and I "ask for support" differs, and that I wouldn't want to give him support in the way that he offers it to me.
> 
> Sometimes after a stressful day (nothing tragic, just daily stress) , I just ask him to hold me while I cry it out.
> 
> It would NOT go over well if he asked me to do that for him.
> 
> What he often needs after a stressful day and space and time to unwind in his own fashion, and I very much try to give that to him, even if it means I have to do a little more or forgo time with him.


This is how my wife and my relationship is. She doesn't cry but she vents to me about her day. I generally don't say much about mine. Frustration would be the emotion I would say I express the most, and this mostly from my job. I don't feel I need her to provide emotional support for me though. I think I instinctively knew that she needs to have confidence in me and for me to be strong for her. 

When we occasionally fight I am more emotional and she has seen me sad and stuff. But I have no desire for her to be responsible for my emotional well being. As I think of this though is it really healthy for anyone man or women to expect that? You're right support is different then responsibility.


----------



## Fozzy

FrenchFry said:


> Appealing is one thing. I would 100% be (and have been) empathetic in that situation.
> 
> I have low empathy for men in the aggregate but high tolerance for my husband. It's one of my main attractions toward him-I don't like stoicism in my partner.


Men in particular, or everyone in general? If men in particular, why?


----------



## musicftw07

The va-clang was strong with my XWW. I could literally show no weakness, no vulnerability, nothing of any kind. Someone up-thread mentioned that their ex-wife or partner was looking more for a father figure than a husband, and that rings incredibly true in my situation as well. I had an extremely stressful series of jobs, was the sole breadwinner for a family of four, and I could show absolutely no stress about that whatsoever.

I have never regretted that divorce.

My girlfriend now is the exact opposite. Like a typical woman, she does admire and is attracted to strength in her man. But I can show vulnerability with her, and she is empathetic to a strong degree. I've never once had that before in my entire life. It's nothing short of extraordinary.

The flip side is that I'm still strong even in my vulnerability. I may show and express my feeling in a given situation, but I still approach it from a position of strength. And if I perceive myself having an issue, then I acknowledge it and take action. That, I think, is The important distinction.

She says her ex-husband would cry and lament about his behavior, and that him crying didn't turn her off. What did was his lack of action on doing anything to fix it, his total lack of follow through. Whereas with me, I take charge and take action, and in her mind that makes all the difference in the world.

I can easily low-key vent about a stressful day, and she'll hug and kiss me and make me a wonderful dinner and majorly sex me up. All without me asking. She just does it, because that's her intrinsic nature.

I treasure that beyond imagination.

If we were to ever break up, that sort of empathy would be non-negotiable in a future mate. I'm male, but I'm also a human being. I'm allowed the same feelings as anyone else. If I vent and I get nothing but "You're a man, tough it out" then your ass is out the door. I'm not going to give all my love and care to someone and get nothing back in return when I need it most. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and hoodie and commemorative court documents.


----------



## GettingIt_2

farsidejunky said:


> Does the lack of emotional strength rev up your insecurities? In other words, does it feel destabilizing to you?


No, I don't think it revs up my insecurities, at least not directly. I think first and foremost it shuts down my sexual attraction, and when THAT happens then maybe I tend to feel insecure. I NEED to feel strongly sexually attracted to my husband. No matter how bad my day is, if when I think of him ****ing me I feel that warm thrill in my belly, then I know everything is going to be okay. 

He does things that piss me off to no end, but that don't affect my sexual attraction. I don't mind being pissed off at him, but I have a really hard time when I feel shut down to him sexually.


----------



## GettingIt_2

I'd be really curious to have some "real world" examples of times some of you men say you've "showed vulnerability" and had that shut down by your wife. 

I think drawing the line between "being vulnerable" and "being overly needy" is in the eyes of the beholder.


----------



## Faithful Wife

GettingIt_2 said:


> I'd be really curious to have some "real world" examples of times some of you men say you've "showed vulnerability" and had that shut down by your wife.
> 
> I think drawing the line between "being vulnerable" and "being overly needy" is in the eyes of the beholder.


I was kind of going to ask something similar of you....can you give some examples of when your H has turned you off, and what he did that was "needy" or whatever? You have given examples of when you've had empathy when he's shown true needs or vulnerability....what does it look like when to you this has become "needy" and gross?


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## chillymorn69

This thread make me want to:crying:


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## GettingIt_2

Faithful Wife said:


> I was kind of going to ask something similar of you....can you give some examples of when your H has turned you off, and what he did that was "needy" or whatever? You have given examples of when you've had empathy when he's shown true needs or vulnerability....what does it look like when to you this has become "needy" and gross?


To be clear, I don't think I said I find his behavior "gross." I'm talking about feeling a dip in sexual attraction. I don't feel repulsed. 

I can't think of any specific times off the top of my head, but I know it's happened when he's vented about work. He's got a stressful job, but it's aways been that way, so I suppose I expect him to be on top of his stress management. Sometimes he gets grumpy just in general, like anyone else, and I'm not really good at being supportive when he's just feeling out of sorts. I have worked on getting better at that. 

Maybe I should ask him and report back. I think it's been a while since this has been an issue. Quite honestly I think he has other people in his life that he turns to when he needs to vent and complain. He's not big on listening to others vent and complain, though, so I think he tries not to do it, either. 

Usually lots of sex keeps him pretty happy, so as long as that's humming along, he seems okay with me being a little short on empathy when he's feeling out of sorts. 

But over all, he probably wishes he could talk to me a little more about things that bother him without me feeling that dip in sexual attraction for him. I think it puts my mind in the mode of being a caretaker; and that role makes me feel less sexual.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

I think to some degree, both sexes lack empathy for the other in some ways. How could it be otherwise? We can't truly walk in each others' shoes. Even when we develop a strong intellectual understanding, that's still not the same as truly _feeling _what your partner is feeling. 

I'll never forget when my wife was (for a short time) put on testosterone. Suddenly, this normally LD, sexually reserved person became very sexually aggressive. She had trouble staying on task during the day, and forcefully jumped my bones in the evening. 

She said "Now I know what it feels like to be you!" A little hormone therapy allowed her to genuinely _feel _what she thought she understood on an mental level, and realized the two levels of understanding were entirely different and one was in no way a substitute for the other. 

And on the other hand, there's soooooooo much about being a woman, a man can never truly understand. 

If we're wise, we try to understand where our empathy must be limited, and do our best to substitute sympathy.


----------



## Faithful Wife

GettingIt_2 said:


> To be clear, I don't think I said I find his behavior "gross." I'm talking about feeling a dip in sexual attraction. I don't feel repulsed.


I guess I interpreted va-clang as the same as repulsed.

Thank you for your last reply. I'm sure a lot of women feel the same, I've read them say such here and other places.


----------



## Faithful Wife

GettingIt_2 said:


> I'd be really curious to have some "real world" examples of times some of you men say you've "showed vulnerability" and had that shut down by your wife.


I've read @MEM2020 give several examples of this.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> It been pretty much my experience with the important women in my life as well. I have learned to pick what vulnerabilities I expose very carefully. I can think of two times that I have shown emotional weakness to my wife, and while she was not crappy or anything about it, she made it clear she wanted it shut down and didn't want to deal with it.


 @samyeagar does your daughter have empathy for males? Do you have sisters or other women in your life who you can get nurturing and empathy from? Have you ever?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> Specifically, this was about sexual topics from a thread down in SIM (Cletus's incompatibility thread).
> 
> It was described by one woman as va-clang....when your vag shuts down due to a man's neediness (or vulnerability?)
> 
> I don't feel this way so it is very curious to me. I have only heard women online discuss this phenomenon, never in person, so I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts about it who is willing to contribute.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of men feel that women lack empathy toward men in general (and this is frequently stated by the anti-feminist crowd)....but I was mainly interested in hearing about how it affects the sexual dynamic.
> 
> However....this being TAM, people will respond however they want. :laugh:


The way it is sometimes described here, the idea of sex only because of empathy as a life choice would not work for me. Back in the bad old days when I had messed up ideas of marriage and sex, I decided to fake it until I could make it. Not making it was not an option. I chose a healthy sex life because that is what my husband wanted as part of marriage. Yay for me, we made it happen! But on balance, I would not choose x times per week because I felt bad for him. It IS hard for me to say since LD is not my thing. My dysfunction was all in my head. When one of us does not want sex, all practical matters aside, we see it as a leading indicator of other issues.

That said, over the years, there have been times when soothing has included slow loving sex. I can remember a handful of times when, after crying in my arms, he just slid into me and was welcomed home. It is certainly a different thing. It did not get my engine running, but I was so happy to feel him fall peacefully asleep with me after that much upset. He does not upset easily. And he gets upset about very important things, like what we thought was the near death of our daughter. A few other occasions come to mind.


----------



## RandomDude

Bah! The whole idea of being vulnerable to anyone, even a loving wife, disgusts me. Always like to be in the position where I can flip the switch anytime.

Don't really care about a partner's empathy more their actions regardless of it.


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## MEM2020

That’s true I have. 
- When my father died I wrote a nice eulogy, but I had the rabbi read it because I was crying and couldn’t - now context is important so I will give some. I don’t think my wife has flat out rejected me more than a half dozen times in 28 years. When I really want to connect we do. But that night - she was angry for embarrassing myself in front of a room full of people. She denied it. But she shot me down hard. And unless you put a gun to one of our kids heads - she won’t ever admit that me crying like that embarrassed her and turned her off. And yes I did say something to her about it, and she totally denied the connection between what happened at the funeral and what happened that night. 
- Any expression of fear in the car, and we’ve had some near crashes at high speed - and she instantly gets furious. And this is not complicated stuff. She’s going 80 and starts to change lanes without looking and suddenly realizes a car coming up in the lane next to us is going 90, and swerves back - damn right that scared me. That turned into a 3 day blow out. And for clarity - I wasn’t angry - not initially. Just genuinely frightened. And she flipped out. And that is the standard template. 

No one is better with babies and old people. But with me / adult men in general - low empathy. 

She constantly apologizes when she’s sick and I am taking care of her. And that has zero to do with me. People get sick. I’m happy to take care of her. She apologizes because situation reversed she does not much like it when I’m sick. Pure projection. 

Forced to compress this I’d say: Nothing turns her off more than the perception of weakness, nothing turns her on more than the projection of strength. I don’t think she chooses that - it’s a deeply hardwired response. 

When her behavior is (in my opinion) at its worst, if my response is low affect - that turns her on even if it also makes her angry. 

As to the generalization I made in another thread, I will repeat it. I think women are better with the very old/young. Kinder, more compassionate, etc. I read an article about all these women who took their ex husbands back into their homes when the ex H got terminally ill. Men don’t do that. That said, the average man comes with a well developed security circuit. And that circuit drives a lot of empathy towards their partners. Maybe not their ex partners, but their current partners. 

I don’t think the average woman’s security package applies to their healthy male partners. Old people and babies - yes. 

That said - there are a subset of men who are very bad partners. They beat/rape their wives. They also leave them when they get sick. 






Faithful Wife said:


> I've read @MEM2020 give several examples of this.


----------



## NobodySpecial

MEM2020 said:


> That’s true I have.
> - When my father died I wrote a nice eulogy, but I had the rabbi read it because I was crying and couldn’t - now context is important so I will give some. I don’t think my wife has flat out rejected me more than a half dozen times in 28 years. When I really want to connect we do. But that night - she was angry for embarrassing myself in front of a room full of people. She denied it. But she shot me down hard. And unless you put a gun to one of our kids heads - she won’t ever admit that me crying like that embarrassed her and turned her off. And yes I did say something to her about it, and she totally denied the connection between what happened at the funeral and what happened that night.
> - Any expression of fear in the car, and we’ve had some near crashes at high speed - and she instantly gets furious. And this is not complicated stuff. She’s going 80 and starts to change lanes without looking and suddenly realizes a car coming up in the lane next to us is going 90, and swerves back - damn right that scared me. That turned into a 3 day blow out. And for clarity - I wasn’t angry - not initially. Just genuinely frightened. And she flipped out. And that is the standard template.


MEM, I hope you know that that is not "women".


----------



## sokillme

NobodySpecial said:


> The way it is sometimes described here, the idea of sex only because of empathy as a life choice would not work for me. Back in the bad old days when I had messed up ideas of marriage and sex, I decided to fake it until I could make it. Not making it was not an option. I chose a healthy sex life because that is what my husband wanted as part of marriage. Yay for me, we made it happen! But on balance, I would not choose x times per week because I felt bad for him. It IS hard for me to say since LD is not my thing. My dysfunction was all in my head. When one of us does not want sex, all practical matters aside, we see it as a leading indicator of other issues.
> 
> That said, over the years, there have been times when soothing has included slow loving sex. I can remember a handful of times when, after crying in my arms, he just slid into me and was welcomed home. It is certainly a different thing. It did not get my engine running, but I was so happy to feel him fall peacefully asleep with me after that much upset. He does not upset easily. And he gets upset about very important things, like what we thought was the near death of our daughter. A few other occasions come to mind.


This is exactly the scenario I was talking about when I spoke of nurturing. But I could see if that was the normal dynamic how that could get old fast.

It's interesting to me that so many loves song written and sung by men pretty much request sex for release and healing. Do most women find this type of sex unappealing? Then again there are so many begging for sex songs, which the highest consumers of such songs are women. I personally never really liked those songs as I found the protagonist in the song weak. I could not project myself into the song if you get my meaning.

Anyway you sound like a good wife.


----------



## sokillme

MEM2020 said:


> That’s true I have.
> - When my father died I wrote a nice eulogy, but I had the rabbi read it because I was crying and couldn’t - now context is important so I will give some. I don’t think my wife has flat out rejected me more than a half dozen times in 28 years. When I really want to connect we do. But that night - she was angry for embarrassing myself in front of a room full of people. She denied it. But she shot me down hard. And unless you put a gun to one of our kids heads - she won’t ever admit that me crying like that embarrassed her and turned her off. And yes I did say something to her about it, and she totally denied the connection between what happened at the funeral and what happened that night.
> - Any expression of fear in the car, and we’ve had some near crashes at high speed - and she instantly gets furious. And this is not complicated stuff. She’s going 80 and starts to change lanes without looking and suddenly realizes a car coming up in the lane next to us is going 90, and swerves back - damn right that scared me. That turned into a 3 day blow out. And for clarity - I wasn’t angry - not initially. Just genuinely frightened. And she flipped out. And that is the standard template.
> 
> No one is better with babies and old people. But with me / adult men in general - low empathy.
> 
> She constantly apologizes when she’s sick and I am taking care of her. And that has zero to do with me. People get sick. I’m happy to take care of her. She apologizes because situation reversed she does not much like it when I’m sick. Pure projection.
> 
> Forced to compress this I’d say: Nothing turns her off more than the perception of weakness, nothing turns her on more than the projection of strength. I don’t think she chooses that - it’s a deeply hardwired response.
> 
> When her behavior is (in my opinion) at its worst, if my response is low affect - that turns her on even if it also makes her angry.
> 
> As to the generalization I made in another thread, I will repeat it. I think women are better with the very old/young. Kinder, more compassionate, etc. I read an article about all these women who took their ex husbands back into their homes when the ex H got terminally ill. Men don’t do that. That said, the average man comes with a well developed security circuit. And that circuit drives a lot of empathy towards their partners. Maybe not their ex partners, but their current partners.
> 
> I don’t think the average woman’s security package applies to their healthy male partners. Old people and babies - yes.
> 
> That said - there are a subset of men who are very bad partners. They beat/rape their wives. They also leave them when they get sick.


Do you fear getting old with her? Like what if you get an illness do you think this will push her away?


----------



## WildMustang

MEM2020 said:


> That’s true I have.
> - When my father died I wrote a nice eulogy, but I had the rabbi read it because I was crying and couldn’t - now context is important so I will give some. I don’t think my wife has flat out rejected me more than a half dozen times in 28 years. When I really want to connect we do. But that night - she was angry for embarrassing myself in front of a room full of people. She denied it. But she shot me down hard. And unless you put a gun to one of our kids heads - she won’t ever admit that me crying like that embarrassed her and turned her off. And yes I did say something to her about it, and she totally denied the connection between what happened at the funeral and what happened that night.
> - Any expression of fear in the car, and we’ve had some near crashes at high speed - and she instantly gets furious. And this is not complicated stuff. She’s going 80 and starts to change lanes without looking and suddenly realizes a car coming up in the lane next to us is going 90, and swerves back - damn right that scared me. That turned into a 3 day blow out. And for clarity - I wasn’t angry - not initially. Just genuinely frightened. And she flipped out. And that is the standard template.
> 
> No one is better with babies and old people. But with me / adult men in general - low empathy.
> 
> She constantly apologizes when she’s sick and I am taking care of her. And that has zero to do with me. People get sick. I’m happy to take care of her. She apologizes because situation reversed she does not much like it when I’m sick. Pure projection.
> 
> Forced to compress this I’d say: Nothing turns her off more than the perception of weakness, nothing turns her on more than the projection of strength. I don’t think she chooses that - it’s a deeply hardwired response.
> 
> When her behavior is (in my opinion) at its worst, if my response is low affect - that turns her on even if it also makes her angry.
> 
> As to the generalization I made in another thread, I will repeat it. I think women are better with the very old/young. Kinder, more compassionate, etc. I read an article about all these women who took their ex husbands back into their homes when the ex H got terminally ill. Men don’t do that. That said, the average man comes with a well developed security circuit. And that circuit drives a lot of empathy towards their partners. Maybe not their ex partners, but their current partners.
> 
> I don’t think the average woman’s security package applies to their healthy male partners. Old people and babies - yes.
> 
> That said - there are a subset of men who are very bad partners. They beat/rape their wives. They also leave them when they get sick.


 @MEM2020 Thank you for sharing this! 

Some women, such as myself, see the ability to be confidently and completely transparent and the ability to show vulnerability as a sign of *SUPER STRENGTH,* not weakness, which turns me on more, not less.


----------



## sokillme

How much of this lack of empathy from both genders towards the other do you think is the result of being treated poorly by someone of the other sex. I suspect that has a lot to do with it. Whether it is a parent, partner or just an accentuate, or repeatedly from different acquaintances. It's pretty obvious on here for example that some of the anger in some post are because of past history.

I also think it's hard to qualify this because it's hard to know what kind of vulnerability we are talking about and what the vulnerability is. Like was said it's no surprise that a guy who cries to his wife every night because of the effect of stupid decisions he continues to make is going to be a turn off.


----------



## Faithful Wife

NobodySpecial said:


> MEM, I hope you know that that is not "women".


I think @MEM2020 has said he believes his wife maybe has a "lite" PD. Therefore, no, that is not "women". 

It makes me a little sad though that there is enough support around here that MEM thinks this is really very common.

....

I am no saint, and have flipped the F out on men before...but it was really not related to their showing vulnerability, weakness, etc. It was usually related to them being non-empathetic toward me or doing things I considered unkind to me or others. That's what sets my buttons off and I would go on the offense (even though it usually felt like defense) immediately. I'm too old and tired for that crap now, but I'm just saying, those were the times when I acted less than stable myself. What brought it out felt like, at the time, self righteousness related to how I (or others in my charge) was being treated by that particular man in that particular moment. I may have not always handled things correctly in those times, but it was definitely never about a man being vulnerable or weak.

And actually....even at those times, I still never lost attraction for him. 

I think once I'm attracted, I'm just attracted and stay that way. It takes a lot of good sex first, though.


----------



## WildMustang

sokillme said:


> How much of this lack of empathy from both genders towards the other do you think is the result of being treated poorly by someone of the other sex. I suspect that has a lot to do with it. Whether it is a parent, partner or just an accentuate, or repeatedly from different acquaintances. It's pretty obvious on here for example that some of the anger in some post are because of past history.
> 
> I also think it's hard to qualify this because it's hard to know what kind of vulnerability we are talking about and what the vulnerability is. Like was said it's no surprise that a guy who cries to his wife every night because of the effect of stupid decisions he continues to make is going to be a turn off.


Well, I believe how we choose to treat others (including with empathy or without empathy) is a conscious choice we make, regardless of how others have treated us in the past.

But perhaps some of it is hard wired into us too as part of our evolutionary survival instincts and that lizard brain in all of us has to be rewired to learn to be more empathetic.


----------



## Faithful Wife

WildMustang said:


> But perhaps some of it is hard wired into us too as part of our evolutionary survival instincts and that lizard brain in all of us has to be rewired to learn to be more empathetic.


I've read some speculation that maybe women don't feel hot for "daddy" or any other nurturer because biologically that person is going to need nurtured rather than protect her (as some others have said it in different ways). I remember reading a thread recently where a woman couldn't possibly be turned on by her man because he was a father to their children and did fatherly things with them (thread may have been a troll, who knows). 

Again...that just left me confused, because to me a sexy daddy is one of the sexiest sexy things any sexy-where!! DILF!!!!

And anytime I witnessed my own man being fatherly and daddy and other nurturing to our kids, it definitely made me glow toward him and that warm glow always turned into heat in a short amount of time.

To be turned off by this makes me scratch my head. Give me some sexy Sexy SEXY daddies!!!

(sorry....got carried away.....)


DILF!!!!


----------



## WildMustang

Faithful Wife said:


> I've read some speculation that maybe women don't feel hot for "daddy" or any other nurturer because biologically that person is going to need nurtured rather than protect her (as some others have said it in different ways). I remember reading a thread recently where a woman couldn't possibly be turned on by her man because he was a father to their children and did fatherly things with them (thread may have been a troll, who knows).
> 
> Again...that just left me confused, because to me a sexy daddy is one of the sexiest sexy things any sexy-where!! DILF!!!!
> 
> And anytime I witnessed my own man being fatherly and daddy and other nurturing to our kids, it definitely made me glow toward him and that warm glow always turned into heat in a short amount of time.
> 
> To be turned off by this makes me scratch my head. Give me some sexy Sexy SEXY daddies!!!
> 
> (sorry....got carried away.....)
> 
> 
> DILF!!!!


Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhaha

You are a HOOT!!! :grin2:


----------



## sokillme

WildMustang said:


> Well, I believe how we choose to treat others (including with empathy or without empathy) is a conscious choice we make, regardless of how others have treated us in the past.
> 
> But perhaps some of it is hard wired into us too as part of our evolutionary survival instincts and that lizard brain in all of us has to be rewired to learn to be more empathetic.


You could also look at in the inverse. Having good relationships with the opposite sex creates empathy. My relationships with my Mother, sisters and eventually my wife in particular has surely done that for me. I also believe I am a naturally empathetic person (maybe some here would disagree) but I have a much better understanding since being married. It is also not just gender related. My wife is much more type-A then I am, though this is not my nature it has helped me be more understanding to other type-a people I am with. 

I would say lack of empathy is a good indicator of a marriage's eventual failure. In fact I believe I read a of a study that once used that as a predictor.


----------



## sokillme

Faithful Wife said:


> I've read some speculation that maybe women don't feel hot for "daddy" or any other nurturer because biologically that person is going to need nurtured rather than protect her (as some others have said it in different ways). I remember reading a thread recently where a woman couldn't possibly be turned on by her man because he was a father to their children and did fatherly things with them (thread may have been a troll, who knows).


Well this could be similar to the Madonna ***** complex which is definitely a thing for people of both genders.


----------



## 269370

I have wondered about this as well. It would be interesting to hear how women differentiate between men being emotionally vulnerable and emotionally needy.
My suspicion is that, on balance, it is more of a turn off for a man to appear vulnerable with a woman. I have cried once or twice in front of my wife and while she made all the effort to be as empathetic as she could, somehow I felt that she did it because it was the proper thing to do and not so much because she actually felt strongly. I could be wrong: it may have been just my (wrong) perception. For a second, I let my emotions go but felt 'dirty' and regretted afterwards.
Also the way she speaks about her friends (slightly judgementally and poking fun) when their husbands cry, makes me feel like this is not a terribly sexy trait...

I think evolutionary, women will show more empathy towards their children but not as much towards their partners.

But in the end I think it is about the form: if you (as a man) dump stuff onto your partner and expect her to fix everything, then you are probably being too 'needy'. If you are open and share thoughts and emotions etc but at the same time sound like you have it all under control etc, then it might be appreciated...I dunno. It would be interesting to hear from women and real life experiences.
I do have to say that as a man, one has to be really careful not to mistake your partner for a mother figure in times of tragedy or deep emotional need: I am not sure many women are comfortable in the 'nurturing' role. But Maybe I am wrong. I have only ever been with one woman.
Though I think my mother is the same with her partner (and how she speaks about him being 'needy' sometimes).


----------



## Mr The Other

Maxwedge 413 said:


> To Op's question,"Do women lack empathy for men?". No. Healthy women, in healthy relationships, with healthy men, do NOT lack empathy. My wife knows that I work hard to keep money in the bank, keep the large yard mowed and the large driveway shovelled in winter. And I feel comforted when I need to vent about work stress or physical pain. I know she sees me as her strong man, and also will care for me like a child if I'm hurt.
> 
> I see an alarmingly increasing # of threads on this and other forums, relating to how women are cold, unfeeling creatures preying on men. In my 45 years, numerous romances and 2 marriages, I have seen that everyone needs to give and receive love and empathy. Unfortunately through nurture or nature, some peple just have poor to no relationship skills. Just because you, Mr Man, can't find a woman that fits your "Ideal" (usually a woman that looks and acts like his mom but wants to **** him all the time), does not mean that women are evil. And to you Miss Priss, just because the men you meet at bars or online want to see how far they can get, doesn't mean all men are pigs.
> 
> Everyone wants love and companionship. Many don't know how to express themselves. Many of those were never taught how to give praise or receive affection. And some just cannot be fixed. But you cannot place blanket statements about 50% of the population , based on your limited experience.


I had a friend whose brother commited suicide. This was before he had arranged a romantic weekend with his girlfriend, but he wanted to be with his family instead. 

His girlfriend did not even care about that. She saw he was going through a horrible time and travelled up with him. She was not demanding, instead she spent that weekend actively looking after him and his family, doing housework and even preparing meals. 

A week later he proposed.

What was interesting is how the two sexes often reacted to that story. Most men I have told it to found it a very nice story and were not surprised. Many women were a little offended that it should be seen as anything else than perfectly normal, or thought that is special in the UK, but normal elsewhere. 

In that example, it was told from the man's point of view. The reason he did not take it for granted was that from her outlook, he had got a romantic weekend together to reflect he had been working hard and not been around. Then, he cancelled it to be with his family. As a man, that is how I would expect her to see it.

There is a clear discrepency.

Putting your place in another's shoes is difficult and people who think it is easy are often the ones not bothering. You are genuinely lucky to have found such a kind and generous woman. But, you give yourself full credit by saying it is the man's fault if she is not like that. In writing that, you do your wife a gross misservice.


----------



## WildMustang

Mr The Other said:


> I had a friend whose brother commited suicide. This was before he had arranged a romantic weekend with his girlfriend, but he wanted to be with his family instead.
> 
> His girlfriend did not even care about that. She saw he was going through a horrible time and travelled up with him. She was not demanding, instead she spent that weekend actively looking after him and his family, doing housework and even preparing meals.
> 
> A week later he proposed.
> 
> What was interesting is how the two sexes often reacted to that story. Most men I have told it to found it a very nice story and were not surprised. Many women were a little offended that it should be seen as anything else than perfectly normal, or thought that is special in the UK, but normal elsewhere.
> 
> In that example, it was told from the man's point of view. The reason he did not take it for granted was that from her outlook, he had got a romantic weekend together to reflect he had been working hard and not been around. Then, he cancelled it to be with his family. As a man, that is how I would expect her to see it.
> 
> There is a clear discrepency.
> 
> Putting your place in another's shoes is difficult and people who think it is easy are often the ones not bothering. You are genuinely lucky to have found such a kind and generous woman. But, you give yourself full credit by saying it is the man's fault if she is not like that. In writing that, you do your wife a gross misservice.


Not trying to be obtuse here, but I don't get the point you are trying to make.

What is the discrepancy???


----------



## DustyDog

Faithful Wife said:


> Specifically, this was about sexual topics from a thread down in SIM (Cletus's incompatibility thread).
> 
> It was described by one woman as va-clang....when your vag shuts down due to a man's neediness (or vulnerability?)
> 
> I don't feel this way so it is very curious to me. I have only heard women online discuss this phenomenon, never in person, so I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts about it who is willing to contribute.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of men feel that women lack empathy toward men in general (and this is frequently stated by the anti-feminist crowd)....but I was mainly interested in hearing about how it affects the sexual dynamic.
> 
> However....this being TAM, people will respond however they want. :laugh:


"needy". What does it mean? We all need. "Needy", means needing more than an OK amount? Who decides this?

In a lecture by Brene Brown about 3-6 months ago on TEDx, she reported on a study about women, men, and vulnerability. I don't recall all the details, but as the report went on, some things came to light:

- Women complain about many things about men, and vice-versa. One of the top three from women about men is that they "want men to be willing to show their vulnerability".
- However, men reported that when they did show their vulnerability to their women, the women turned away or shut down...they did not respond supportively.

So... the same group was re-surveyed, and this time the women were given sample of speech from men that showed vulnerability and asked to respond. In a vast majority of the cases, like over 85%, the women called the men "needy", or "childish" or "immature". When it was pointed out to the women that the speech they were given was actually chosen by a panel of women to represent a man expressing vulnerability, about 2/3 of the women reacted by saying, equivalently, omigod you're right, I reacted totally inappropriately to exactly what I wish my man did.

So, we find, said Brene, that women are presently asking for something they are not actually prepared to accept. Men showing vulnerability. They see it as neediness.


----------



## Handy

* WildMustang
I equate the ability to be vulnerable, to be seen, with strength.
And I find strength incredibly sexy.
Irresistibly sexy.
Drop my panties to the floor in a nanosecond, sexy! *

Boys and men are told be strong and not needy, so what you are saying is the opposite of what most men are taught or believe. I understand seeing a man cry or having an empathetic attitude or behavior, can show he can understand someone else's position in life, that he isn't cold towards others, but when it comes to the W, he better be there to shield or protect her.

From what I have experienced and observed, some women have empathy when the man is facing some challenges as long as it doesn't last too long and he still is able to be responsible for being the CEO of the family and making things right so the family continues to function without too much disruption. 

Yet some women stay with almost total loser men.


----------



## WildMustang

DustyDog said:


> "needy". What does it mean? We all need. "Needy", means needing more than an OK amount? Who decides this?
> 
> In a lecture by Brene Brown about 3-6 months ago on TEDx, she reported on a study about women, men, and vulnerability. I don't recall all the details, but as the report went on, some things came to light:
> 
> - Women complain about many things about men, and vice-versa. One of the top three from women about men is that they "want men to be willing to show their vulnerability".
> - However, men reported that when they did show their vulnerability to their women, the women turned away or shut down...they did not respond supportively.
> 
> So... the same group was re-surveyed, and this time the women were given sample of speech from men that showed vulnerability and asked to respond. In a vast majority of the cases, like over 85%, the women called the men "needy", or "childish" or "immature". When it was pointed out to the women that the speech they were given was actually chosen by a panel of women to represent a man expressing vulnerability, about 2/3 of the women reacted by saying, equivalently, omigod you're right, I reacted totally inappropriately to exactly what I wish my man did.
> 
> So, we find, said Brene, that women are presently asking for something they are not actually prepared to accept. Men showing vulnerability. They see it as neediness.


Perhaps that is true of some women-I cannot speak for them.

I can only speak for myself. To me, the ability for a man (especially in this day and age) to show vulnerability, to unabashedly be transparent and allow himself to truly be "seen" is a sign of *GREAT* *STRENGTH*, not weakness.

Of course, I am not talking about him acting like a petulant child who throws temper tantrums or is in other ways out of control, I am talking about being able to express how he is truly feeling and generally having a high EQ (emotional quotient).


----------



## Handy

* FW
DILF*

Me, ????? :head scratch: Me Google DILF. OOOHHHH, I get it!!!!!!!


----------



## WildMustang

DustyDog said:


> "needy". What does it mean? We all need. "Needy", means needing more than an OK amount? Who decides this?
> 
> In a lecture by Brene Brown about 3-6 months ago on TEDx, she reported on a study about women, men, and vulnerability. I don't recall all the details, but as the report went on, some things came to light:
> 
> - Women complain about many things about men, and vice-versa. One of the top three from women about men is that they "want men to be willing to show their vulnerability".
> - However, men reported that when they did show their vulnerability to their women, the women turned away or shut down...they did not respond supportively.
> 
> So... the same group was re-surveyed, and this time the women were given sample of speech from men that showed vulnerability and asked to respond. In a vast majority of the cases, like over 85%, the women called the men "needy", or "childish" or "immature". When it was pointed out to the women that the speech they were given was actually chosen by a panel of women to represent a man expressing vulnerability, about 2/3 of the women reacted by saying, equivalently, omigod you're right, I reacted totally inappropriately to exactly what I wish my man did.
> 
> So, we find, said Brene, that women are presently asking for something they are not actually prepared to accept. Men showing vulnerability. They see it as neediness.


Right off the top of my head, "Neediness" to me is someone who does not have good boundaries. 

Examples: 

Not being able to just stand firm and be who he truly is while in the presence of me and others, also known as "differentiating", but instead needing to conform to the popular consensus or crowd to fit in, being a chameleon.

Texting me and expecting me to respond immediately or on some arbitrary timeline he imposes without considering what I may be doing, even if it's something he sees as unimportant.

Not wanting me to pursue my interests, hobbies, friendships, etc.

Not having a life of his own with his own interests, hobbies, friendships, but expecting me to be his constant and only source of entertainment.

Wanting me to "complete him" instead of coming into the relationship as a whole person wanting to meet and be with another whole person.

Only being able to take and not to give.

Wanting to see me flounder or fail so I need him more rather than helping me grow as a person by being supportive

Depending on me to define him or make him who he is rather than support him in who he is

These are just a few examples off the top of my head. I could go on and on and on, but you get the idea.


----------



## Faithful Wife

WildMustang said:


> DustyDog said:
> 
> 
> 
> "needy". What does it mean? We all need. "Needy", means needing more than an OK amount? Who decides this?
> 
> In a lecture by Brene Brown about 3-6 months ago on TEDx, she reported on a study about women, men, and vulnerability. I don't recall all the details, but as the report went on, some things came to light:
> 
> - Women complain about many things about men, and vice-versa. One of the top three from women about men is that they "want men to be willing to show their vulnerability".
> - However, men reported that when they did show their vulnerability to their women, the women turned away or shut down...they did not respond supportively.
> 
> So... the same group was re-surveyed, and this time the women were given sample of speech from men that showed vulnerability and asked to respond. In a vast majority of the cases, like over 85%, the women called the men "needy", or "childish" or "immature". When it was pointed out to the women that the speech they were given was actually chosen by a panel of women to represent a man expressing vulnerability, about 2/3 of the women reacted by saying, equivalently, omigod you're right, I reacted totally inappropriately to exactly what I wish my man did.
> 
> So, we find, said Brene, that women are presently asking for something they are not actually prepared to accept. Men showing vulnerability. They see it as neediness.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps that is true of some women-I cannot speak for them.
> 
> I can only speak for myself. To me, the ability for a man (especially in this day and age) to show vulnerability, to unabashedly be transparent and allow himself to truly be "seen" is a sign of *GREAT* *STRENGTH*, not weakness.
> 
> Of course, I am not talking about him acting like a petulant child who throws temper tantrums or is in other ways out of control, I am talking about being able to express how he is truly feeling and generally having a high EQ (emotional quotient).
Click to expand...

 @DustyDog that is fascinating. Can you find the TED talk and link it here?
@WildMustang I'm totally with ya. There have been so many times I've been bowled over with what I might call empathetic passion when seeing my man be vulnerable and strong at the same time. Usually this has been when someone died or another trauma happened. But at other times it was when he was being vulnerable by telling me how deeply he loves me. Or at other times when telling me dark secrets that haunt his soul but by sharing them with me a tiny ray of light can shine on it all. It still turns me on to think back to those times. 

I've dated and or married only men like this, apparently. I can't imagine a man who either doesn't emote or who emotes constantly. I've just been with ones who emote or are vulnerable in a way that turns me on and makes me respect his grace, strength and dignity. 

But what Dusty Dog said...I mean, wow! Maybe we really are not like the majority of women (based on the TED talk). But it sounds like even those women recognized it wasn't really "right". I would be so curious to see what they saw and see if the men seemed strong and vulnerable or whiny to me.


----------



## Handy

WildMustang, I have been conditioned to not even accept gifts or money from female friends because I supposedly have to be un-needy / self-sufficient / in control at all times.. I even don't accept gifts or small amounts of money if i do some male friends favors or help them out if it didn't take long. My older sister had to sit me down and explain that me refusing gifts was hurting her feelings and that it was much better for me to just accept a gift because it made her feel better and appreciated.

Today something similar happened and it took the woman I was talking to when she did about what my sister told me, take the small gift and be gracious and accept it.

When I hear stories of men swindling women out of money or asking a woman to pay for his bills and not repaying the loan ASAP=almost now, I cringe and think the guy is a leach, not worthy of being in the brotherhood.

Couple the small gift thing with men supposed not looking needy or weak, it is no wonder men do not show emotions some or most of the time. Of course that whole ball of wax in on the men's shoulders. How to change that so it is socially acceptable for men to show vulnerability is another problem and where is the limit between variability and being judged weak?

Even other men judge some men in a negative light for not being in control almost all of the time. I think some women also buy into this idea. I know my W does.


----------



## WildMustang

Faithful Wife said:


> @DustyDog that is fascinating. Can you find the TED talk and link it here?
> @WildMustang I'm totally with ya. There have been so many times I've been bowled over with what I might call empathetic passion when seeing my man be vulnerable and strong at the same time. Usually this has been when someone died or another trauma happened. But at other times it was when he was being vulnerable by telling me how deeply he loves me. Or at other times when telling me dark secrets that haunt his soul but by sharing them with me a tiny ray of light can shine on it all. It still turns me on to think back to those times.
> 
> I've dated and or married only men like this, apparently. I can't imagine a man who either doesn't emote or who emotes constantly. I've just been with ones who emote or are vulnerable in a way that turns me on and makes me respect his grace, strength and dignity.
> 
> But what Dusty Dog said...I mean, wow! Maybe we really are not like the majority of women (based on the TED talk). But it sounds like even those women recognized it wasn't really "right". I would be so curious to see what they saw and see if the men seemed strong and vulnerable or whiny to me.


OMG, yeah, you get it. 

Yeah, it is a HUGE turn on to witness such strength, grace, and dignity in a masculine man. 

I find myself feeling privileged and honored when they trust me enough with such tender places in their hearts, to reveal that side to me. It makes me love and respect them even more, when they are able to stand strong and unabashedly be transparent and vulnerable in my presence. It takes *GREAT COURAGE* for a man to be vulnerable, for anyone to be vulnerable, *but especially, for a man to be vulnerable in this day.*

It is an honor and a privilege I do not take lightly for me to be trusted by a man in this way, so of course, it melts my heart. It melts me to my core.

I am also curious about what those women saw too. I hope he links the TED talk.


----------



## WildMustang

Handy said:


> WildMustang, I have been conditioned to not even accept gifts or money from female friends because I supposedly have to be un-needy / self-sufficient / in control at all times.. I even don't accept gifts or small amounts of money if i do some male friends favors or help them out if it didn't take long. My older sister had to sit me down and explain that me refusing gifts was hurting her feelings and that it was much better for me to just accept a gift because it made her feel better and appreciated.
> 
> Today something similar happened and it took the woman I was talking to when she did about what my sister told me, take the small gift and be gracious and accept it.
> 
> When I hear stories of men swindling women out of money or asking a woman to pay for his bills and not repaying the loan ASAP=almost now, I cringe and think the guy is a leach, not worthy of being in the brotherhood.
> 
> Couple the small gift thing with men supposed not looking needy or weak, it is no wonder men do not show emotions some or most of the time. Of course that whole ball of wax in on the men's shoulders. How to change that so it is socially acceptable for men to show vulnerability is another problem and where is the limit between variability and being judged weak?
> 
> Even other men judge some men in a negative light for not being in control almost all of the time. I think some women also buy into this idea. I know my W does.


Thank you for posting that! It helps me and I suspect others, better understand the full spectrum of different experiences.

Kudos to your sister for helping you see that it robs the giver of "her" blessing you, when you do not accept her gift to you. (It blesses people to be able to give, so when you don't accept the gift, it robs them of their blessing). The best response is to accept the gift with great appreciation and a sincere thank you. This is hard when you have been conditioned otherwise, but it gets easier with time and practice. 

Sometimes, (not saying this is the case with you, I have no way of knowing, I am just speaking in general terms), sometimes, people have a hard time accepting gifts or kindness because deep down inside, they don't feel they are worthy of the gift or kindness, so it is hard for them to accept it. They are fine as long as they are the ones giving the gift or kindness, because deep down inside, they view others as being above them or more worthy than they are.

Sometimes, it may just be something learned from FOO (Family of Origin) that it is not acceptable to accept gifts, for whatever reason.

***************************************************************************

I in *NO WAY* blame men for believing it is somehow unmanly to be vulnerable. 

Men were taught since before they learned to walk, "Big boys don't cry" perhaps with good intention by well meaning parents (the road to hell is paved with good intentions) so their sons would be "tough, able to compete, win at life, survive anything, etc". 

But in my opinion, instead of helping men, this brainwashing has caused them great harm. Repressing emotion, leads to all kinds of addictions to numb pain (alcoholism, drug addiction, food addiction/obesity, sex addiction, gambling addiction, you name it) heart attacks, panic attacks, depression, suicide, difficulty in relating, the list goes on and on.

**************************************************************************

Do you know that emotions cannot be selectively numbed? Meaning, you cannot just numb say, sadness, or anger, and leave the rest of the emotions out? When you try to numb sadness or anger, you also numb happiness, excitement, joy, and all the other emotions. You cannot selectively numb certain emotions. Just something that came to mind I thought I'd share. 

**************************************************************************

But I agree with you completely, It is no wonder that men do not show emotion some or all of the time and it is no wonder some men and some women also see it as weak for men to show emotion.

We've all been brainwashed!

I think the pendulum has begun to swing back into accepting that men are not emotionless robots and should not be expected to act like they are.

It may take awhile for society to catch up, because everyone has been conditioned for so long to accept it as normal.

It must be so hard to be a man in this day and age...I cannot even imagine...but I love you, Man, and I support you and all the other men struggling through this thing we call life!

*Blessings to YOU and YOURS!*


----------



## WildMustang

Just a thought for everyone: 

Our military - any military - don't you think those men and women are vulnerable to put their lives on the line to fight for their country? 

How much more vulnerable can you get than to risk your own life for a worthy cause??? 

Don't you think that is *STRONG* of them, *COURAGEOUS* of them???

*To be vulnerable is to be STRONG!*


----------



## chillymorn69

Yes!


----------



## Mr The Other

Mr The Other said:


> I had a friend whose brother commited suicide. This was before he had arranged a romantic weekend with his girlfriend, but he wanted to be with his family instead.
> 
> His girlfriend did not even care about that. She saw he was going through a horrible time and travelled up with him. She was not demanding, instead she spent that weekend actively looking after him and his family, doing housework and even preparing meals.
> 
> A week later he proposed.
> 
> What was interesting is how the two sexes often reacted to that story. Most men I have told it to found it a very nice story and were not surprised. Many women were a little offended that it should be seen as anything else than perfectly normal, or thought that is special in the UK, but normal elsewhere.
> 
> In that example, it was told from the man's point of view. The reason he did not take it for granted was that from her outlook, he had got a romantic weekend together to reflect he had been working hard and not been around. Then, he cancelled it to be with his family. As a man, that is how I would expect her to see it.
> 
> There is a clear discrepency.
> 
> Putting your place in another's shoes is difficult and people who think it is easy are often the ones not bothering. You are genuinely lucky to have found such a kind and generous woman. But, you give yourself full credit by saying it is the man's fault if she is not like that. In writing that, you do your wife a gross misservice.





WildMustang said:


> Not trying to be obtuse here, but I don't get the point you are trying to make.
> 
> What is the discrepancy???


The discrepency is in what was considered normal behaviour from women. 

Womens' expectations of women in relationships were far higher than most mens'.

I suspect (I am probably wrong), that this is because empathy with men is harder. Certainly, if I see a man blubbering, I will react in several ways including annoyance. To see a woman or a child weeping copiously would move me strongly. This, I suspect, means that it is harder for women to be empathetic with men than they imagine.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> I think @MEM2020 has said he believes his wife maybe has a "lite" PD. Therefore, no, that is not "women".
> 
> It makes me a little sad though that there is enough support around here that MEM thinks this is really very common.
> 
> I think once I'm attracted, I'm just attracted and stay that way. It takes a lot of good sex first, though.


I don't know what PD is. I have to be careful since I have a secret crush on MEM. Ok, not so secret now.


----------



## RandomDude

> WildMustang
> I equate the ability to be vulnerable, to be seen, with strength.
> And I find strength incredibly sexy.
> Irresistibly sexy.
> Drop my panties to the floor in a nanosecond, sexy!


Maybe you would like this guy, he's VERY vulnerable


----------



## GettingIt_2

@MEM2020 I know few men who are as in tune with their wives as you. You seem to have a real interest in understanding her inside and out, and I can attest that that sort of intimacy can be frightening to some women, because what is deep down in our lizard brains sometimes is hard to admit, if we go digging for it at all. 

Being able to admit to our partners what lies beneath our impulses and our passions--even while it is at odds with what is seen as appropriate and loving in a modern marriage--is something that I've come to see as a unique type of trust between a man and a woman. 

I know your wife doesn't easily look at these things in herself, or can be reluctant to admit them, but I do think your reaction to her probably makes it likely that she does so to the very best of her ability. 

No wonder @NobodySpecial has a crush on you.


----------



## StillSearching

In my 53 years of life I have found that women only have empathy for their children and parents. Mainly the male parent and male children.

Case and point....I discovered my wife having an affair in April. I kicked her out. She begged me not to file. I started IC to help me after the D to be single.
I let my wife back into the house because she promised she would change. I'm currently giving her a chance.

Last night I said to her "Why can't you tell me your're sorry without provocation?"
Her reply "I am just not built that way!"


----------



## minimalME

StillSearching said:


> Last night I said to her "Why can't you tell me your're sorry without provocation?"
> Her reply "I am just not built that way!"


Both sexes are guilty of pridefulness, but in my personal experience, women are willing to apologize, while men will stay silent and walk on.


----------



## StillSearching

minimalME said:


> Both sexes are guilty of pridefulness, but in my personal experience, women are willing to apologize, while men will stay silent and walk on.


Yes individuals are different. Here's where it shows my point. Being narcissistic is prideful. Concerning empathy and being prideful, I don't think they are one and the same. Related yes.
To say men do this or that is another topic. And I believe the reason men stay silent and walk away is very easily explained, but another topic.

Willing to apologize and apologizing without provocation are two completely different things. The former being empathy.

But lets test the waters to see if you are right........
How many men here have ever had a woman "apologize without provocation"?


----------



## Mr The Other

minimalME said:


> Both sexes are guilty of pridefulness, but in my personal experience, women are willing to apologize, while men will stay silent and walk on.


In my experience, this changes hugely with culture.

I received more sincere apologies from girlfriends after two years in Denmark than I had in the previous decade in the UK. A little more self-confidence was the difference (the Danes did not find it humiliating to admit wrong or that it betrayed womenkind).

Just my experience.


----------



## minimalME

StillSearching said:


> Yes individuals are different. Here's where it shows my point. Being narcissistic is prideful. Concerning empathy and being prideful,* I don't think they are one and the same.* Related yes.
> To say men do this or that is another topic. And I believe the reason men stay silent and walk away is very easily explained, but another topic.
> 
> Willing to apologize and apologizing without provocation are two completely different things. The former being empathy.
> 
> *But lets test the waters to see if you are right........
> How many men here have ever had a woman "apologize without provocation"?*



Empathy is defined as the the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. Pridefulness is when you are capable of accessing empathy, but instead, you put yourself first - viewing your own views, emotions, etc. as superior. A prideful person blocks empathy.

They are opposites - not synonymous.

And I think that a prideful reaction is born out of fear of loosing face. It's an unwillingness to open up and be vulnerable.

As a woman, I apologize easily when I know I've wronged someone. My apologies are genuine, and I only apologize once for a specific offense. 

Both my ex-husband and my oldest daughter have a nasty habit of bringing up old issues that have been apologized for. And I tell them clearly and plainly that my apology was sincere, and I won't be apologizing again for the same thing.


----------



## Mr The Other

StillSearching said:


> Yes individuals are different. Here's where it shows my point. Being narcissistic is prideful. Concerning empathy and being prideful, I don't think they are one and the same. Related yes.
> To say men do this or that is another topic. And I believe the reason men stay silent and walk away is very easily explained, but another topic.
> 
> Willing to apologize and apologizing without provocation are two completely different things. The former being empathy.
> 
> But lets test the waters to see if you are right........
> How many men here have ever had a woman "apologize without provocation"?


You were kind enough to Like my post, so you know that I have!

Where I encountered it most was in the USA (rare) and in Denmark (common). 

Feminism is much stronger in Denmark, and that means the man is not seen as the grown-up responsible for the relationship. She makes a mistake, she should say sorry, but it also reflects her status as a fellow grown-up is assured so it is not humiliating of seen as revealing an inherent fault.

Possibly.


----------



## StillSearching

minimalME said:


> Empathy is defined as the the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. Pridefulness is when you are capable of accessing empathy, but instead, you put yourself first - viewing your own views, emotions, etc. as superior. A prideful person blocks empathy.
> 
> They are opposites - not synonymous.
> 
> And I think that a prideful reaction is born out of fear of loosing face. It's an unwillingness to open up and be vulnerable.
> 
> As a woman, I apologize easily when I know I've wronged someone. My apologies are genuine, and *I only apologize once for a specific offense*.
> 
> Both my ex-husband and my oldest daughter have a nasty habit of bringing up old issues that have been apologized for. And I tell them clearly and plainly that my apology was sincere, and I won't be apologizing again for the same thing.


You are making my point for me.
Why only once?
Sincerity is forever


----------



## StillSearching

Mr The Other said:


> You were kind enough to Like my post, so you know that I have!
> 
> Where I encountered it most was in the USA (rare) and in Denmark (common).
> 
> Feminism is much stronger in Denmark, and that means the man is not seen as the grown-up responsible for the relationship. She makes a mistake, she should say sorry, but it also reflects her status as a fellow grown-up is assured so it is not humiliating of seen as revealing an inherent fault.
> 
> Possibly.


In my defense I have only dealt with american women.
There's something else going on in Denmark than just feminism.....


----------



## Fozzy

MEM2020 said:


> No one is better with babies and old people. But with me / adult men in general - low empathy.
> 
> ....
> 
> 
> As to the generalization I made in another thread, I will repeat it. I think women are better with the very old/young. Kinder, more compassionate, etc. I read an article about all these women who took their ex husbands back into their homes when the ex H got terminally ill. Men don’t do that. That said, the average man comes with a well developed security circuit. And that circuit drives a lot of empathy towards their partners. Maybe not their ex partners, but their current partners.
> 
> I don’t think the average woman’s security package applies to their healthy male partners. Old people and babies - yes.


It's a tough one to figure out, but I think this is largely true. 

On a macro level, I think women to have less empathy for adult men than they do for children, the infirm and other women. I think at its heart it stems from perception of power. Adult healthy men are perceived physically as more powerful. The hunters, builders and bug-killers of the world. I think that perception of physical power, interpreted as a lack of physical vulnerability, gets transposed over to the mental and emotional side of things.

From the viewpoint of a less powerful individual (whether in reality or in their own mind), it's difficult to dredge up empathy for someone who is perceived as being in a more advantageous position. Sometimes, we even witness the misfortune of the more powerful with glee and schadenfreude. Think about the last time you saw a CEO frog-marched to jail, or a politician publicly humiliated. How much empathy did you have for them? How much empathy did you have for the ball player or movie star that found themselves penniless? I think it all comes from the same place.


----------



## minimalME

StillSearching said:


> You are making my point for me.
> Why only once?


Why more than once? What is it that you're after? 

To me, that's _your_ pridefulness just wanting to beat up on someone who's humbled themselves and been open with you.

I can't speak for others, but if I initiate an apology, it doesn't get more genuine than that. I can't be anymore truthful and sincere.

Asking me for it over and over again? That's not going to be from the heart, so I won't do it.


----------



## Rowan

Fozzy said:


> On a macro level, I think women to have less empathy for adult men than they do for children, the infirm and other women. I think at its heart it stems from perception of power. Adult healthy men are perceived physically as more powerful. The hunters, builders and bug-killers of the world. I think that perception of physical power, interpreted as a lack of physical vulnerability, gets transposed over to the mental and emotional side of things.


Speaking only for myself, I find that it's less about "he should be strong" than it is that things that remind me of children or old people are not sexy. So, while I might be empathetic to my partner's need to cry, it doesn't make me think sexy thoughts. It, rather, puts me into nurture mode. Nurture mode and sexy mode are two very different things. I am perfectly willing to nurture my guy. I'm just turned off, sexually, if I find myself being frequently made responsible for his emotional states as if he were an old person with dementia or a child still learning to navigate emotional space. It's the requirement of me to step into being mom/caretaker for someone who should be a fully actualized adult like myself, that is sexually unappealing. I might still love him, care for him, enjoy his company in other ways. But I wouldn't be sexually attracted.

For me anyway, if I spend a significant percentage of my time needing to be someone's mom, I don't want to have sex with them. I get that such a thing seems to appeal to some men - they enjoy the "daddy" role with their significantly younger/less mature/unstable partner. It's what fuels that whole KISA thing. And there are also some women that appeals to - the "Florence Nightingale" set. But that dynamic just doesn't work for me personally. I need a mature, stable, partner. I want to function as a mature, stable, partner. Because, again and for me the bottom line, there is nothing sexy about emotional instability that puts me in mind of a child and requires me to mother.


----------



## FrenchFry

Fozzy said:


> It's a tough one to figure out, but I think this is largely true.
> 
> On a macro level, I think women to have less empathy for adult men than they do for children, the infirm and other women. I think at its heart it stems from perception of power. Adult healthy men are perceived physically as more powerful. The hunters, builders and bug-killers of the world. I think that perception of physical power, interpreted as a lack of physical vulnerability, gets transposed over to the mental and emotional side of things.
> 
> From the viewpoint of a less powerful individual (whether in reality or in their own mind), it's difficult to dredge up empathy for someone who is perceived as being in a more advantageous position. Sometimes, we even witness the misfortune of the more powerful with glee and schadenfreude. Think about the last time you saw a CEO frog-marched to jail, or a politician publicly humiliated. How much empathy did you have for them? How much empathy did you have for the ball player or movie star that found themselves penniless? I think it all comes from the same place.


Thank you for taking the time to write out my response for me. :grin2:

In my case, I've had significant experiences where that physical power was imposed over me, significant experiences where that physical power transferred over to mental and emotional power. On a social level, there is little empathy for me. So on a group level, there is not a benefit for me to be empathetic towards men.

My husband though? I've seen him at his most vulnerable and I still love him. He's basically given me the road map on how to destroy him and trusts me not to do so. So it's easy--very easy for me to show him empathy, sympathy. To listen to his needs, nurture him and be an emotional safe place. Which is also why I do not enjoy stoicism. But for me, equality in marriage is safety.


----------



## WildMustang

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't know what PD is. I have to be careful since I have a secret crush on MEM. Ok, not so secret now.


Get in line, Honey! Long line of women ahead of ya!


----------



## StillSearching

minimalME said:


> Why more than once? What is it that you're after?
> 
> To me, that's _your_ pridefulness just wanting to beat up on someone who's humbled themselves and been open with you.
> 
> I can't speak for others, but if I initiate an apology, it doesn't get more genuine than that. I can't be anymore truthful and sincere.
> 
> *Asking me for it over and over again?* That's not going to be from the heart, so I won't do it.


I'll start with your last question to answer the rest.
It should NEVER be asked of you. That's provocation.
Someone with true humility does not ask "What are you after?"
If it's genuine, it's always genuine forever.... not just once or the first time. More than once should not bother you, if it's genuine.
Self-refection is a good place to start.... These terms like "beat up on someone", and "your pridefulness"...."What are you after?" does not sound humble to me.


----------



## Notself

Here's Brene Brown's TED talk.
https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_listening_to_shame/transcript



> 16:23
> For men, shame is not a bunch of competing, conflicting expectations. Shame is one, do not be perceived as what? Weak. I did not interview men for the first four years of my study. It wasn't until a man looked at me after a book signing, and said, "I love what say about shame, I'm curious why you didn't mention men." And I said, "I don't study men." And he said, "That's convenient."
> 
> 
> 16:50
> (Laughter)
> 
> 
> 16:53
> And I said, "Why?" And he said, "Because you say to reach out, tell our story, be vulnerable. But you see those books you just signed for my wife and my three daughters?" I said, "Yeah." "They'd rather me die on top of my white horse than watch me fall down. When we reach out and be vulnerable, we get the **** beat out of us. And don't tell me it's from the guys and the coaches and the dads. Because the women in my life are harder on me than anyone else."


----------



## Mr The Other

Rowan said:


> Speaking only for myself, I find that it's less about "he should be strong" than it is that things that remind me of children or old people are not sexy. So, while I might be empathetic to my partner's need to cry, it doesn't make me think sexy thoughts. It, rather, puts me into nurture mode. Nurture mode and sexy mode are two very different things. I am perfectly willing to nurture my guy. I'm just turned off, sexually, if I find myself being frequently made responsible for his emotional states as if he were an old person with dementia or a child still learning to navigate emotional space. It's the requirement of me to step into being mom/caretaker for someone who should be a fully actualized adult like myself, that is sexually unappealing. I might still love him, care for him, enjoy his company in other ways. But I wouldn't be sexually attracted.
> 
> For me anyway, if I spend a significant percentage of my time needing to be someone's mom, I don't want to have sex with them. I get that such a thing seems to appeal to some men - they enjoy the "daddy" role with their significantly younger/less mature/unstable partner. It's what fuels that whole KISA thing. And there are also some women that appeals to - the "Florence Nightingale" set. But that dynamic just doesn't work for me personally. I need a mature, stable, partner. I want to function as a mature, stable, partner. Because, again and for me the bottom line, there is nothing sexy about emotional instability that puts me in mind of a child and requires me to mother.


Taking the first paragraph in particular, what might be seen as unempathetic is often a strange generosity. A woman can think that a man losing a family member might be very painful, but she might in generosity believe he is strong enough to not let it affect him. Indeed, she might even be let down if this image is broken.

Really, I want to say that men do experience these things, but it is not a case of "women are mean" which often seems to be the rather pointless conclusion.


----------



## StillSearching

OP, just the fact that there are 8 pages to answer your question is your answer.
You know it.
Try talking about this issue in a room full of women. (That are not from Denmark) 
If you do, you're the Ahole in the corner.


----------



## Fozzy

Rowan said:


> Speaking only for myself, I find that it's less about "he should be strong" than it is that things that remind me of children or old people are not sexy. So, while I might be empathetic to my partner's need to cry, it doesn't make me think sexy thoughts. It, rather, puts me into nurture mode. Nurture mode and sexy mode are two very different things. I am perfectly willing to nurture my guy. I'm just turned off, sexually, if I find myself being frequently made responsible for his emotional states as if he were an old person with dementia or a child still learning to navigate emotional space. It's the requirement of me to step into being mom/caretaker for someone who should be a fully actualized adult like myself, that is sexually unappealing. I might still love him, care for him, enjoy his company in other ways. But I wouldn't be sexually attracted.
> 
> For me anyway, if I spend a significant percentage of my time needing to be someone's mom, I don't want to have sex with them. I get that such a thing seems to appeal to some men - they enjoy the "daddy" role with their significantly younger/less mature/unstable partner. It's what fuels that whole KISA thing. And there are also some women that appeals to - the "Florence Nightingale" set. But that dynamic just doesn't work for me personally. I need a mature, stable, partner. I want to function as a mature, stable, partner. Because, again and for me the bottom line, there is nothing sexy about emotional instability that puts me in mind of a child and requires me to mother.


Totally understandable on the level of sexual attraction. That varies so widely that only the most basic generalities will ever apply. I'm speaking more at the larger non-sexual level of how the majority of women feel regarding the majority of men. Like your visceral gut reaction when you read on the internet about some hardship that men face--would it tend to elicit an empathetic reaction vs eye-rolling. Specifically in contrast to how you might view a similar plight experienced by women, children or elderly.


----------



## minimalME

StillSearching said:


> I'll start with your last question to answer the rest.
> It should NEVER be asked of you. That's provocation.
> Someone with true humility does not ask "What are you after?"
> If it's genuine, it's always genuine forever.... not just once or the first time. More than once should not bother you, if it's genuine.
> Self-refection is a good place to start.... These terms like "beat up on someone", and "your pridefulness"...."What are you after?" does not sound humble to me.


Okay. Then we'll just disagree.

One genuine apology is sufficient. After that, the burden of whether or not you're going to forgive is completely on you.

If an apology has been offered, and forgiveness has been offered, then going through this cycle of again and again is mute.

A person who requires an apology over and over again for the same offense is someone who enjoys holding power over someone else and who, quite simply, is flat out refusing to forgive. You just want the other person to grovel/beg. 

I don't believe that a person who's initiating a true apology is going to do it more than once. After that, you're just gonna get words.


----------



## Mr The Other

StillSearching said:


> OP, just the fact that there are 8 pages to answer your question is your answer.
> You know it.
> Try talking about this issue in a room full of women. (That are not from Denmark)
> If you do, you're the Ahole in the corner.


I think there is a difference in how we perceive apologies too.

I said I was not used to them in England, but I had lots of "I'm sorry - but...." or "I'm sorry that you....". We might not consider them real apologies, but the person giving them might.


----------



## Mr The Other

minimalME said:


> Okay. Then we'll just disagree.
> 
> One genuine apology is sufficient. After that, the burden of whether or not you're going to forgive is completely on you.
> 
> If an apology has been offered, and forgiveness has been offered, then going through this cycle of again and again is mute.
> 
> A person who requires an apology over and over again for the same offense is someone who enjoys holding power over someone else and who, quite simply, is flat out refusing to forgive. You just want the other person to grovel/beg.
> 
> I don't believe that a person who's initiating a true apology is going to do it more than once. After that, you're just gonna get words.


I think that is very true and not dependant on the sex of either party.


----------



## minimalME

Mr The Other said:


> I think there is a difference in how we perceive apologies too.
> 
> I said I was not used to them in England, but I had lots of "I'm sorry - but...." or "I'm sorry that you....". We might not consider them real apologies, but the person giving them might.


Regardless of the words used, if you're in front of someone who's apologizing to you, I'd think most people would be able to discern the intention and motivation behind what's being said.


----------



## Mr The Other

minimalME said:


> Regardless of the words used, if you're in front of someone who's apologizing to you, I'd think most people would be able to discern the intention and motivation behind what's being said.


I am perhaps pushing generosity to its limit.


----------



## Rowan

Fozzy said:


> Totally understandable on the level of sexual attraction. That varies so widely that only the most basic generalities will ever apply. I'm speaking more at the larger non-sexual level of how the majority of women feel regarding the majority of men. Like your visceral gut reaction when you read on the internet about some hardship that men face--would it tend to elicit an empathetic reaction vs eye-rolling. Specifically in contrast to how you might view a similar plight experienced by women, children or elderly.


The initial gist of the thread was related to sexual interest, which is why I framed my post that way. From a non-sexual standpoint, I tend to be very empathetic on the whole to most people. A genuine hardship, experienced by anyone of any age or gender, prompts empathy. And, while I may not really understand an individual's reaction to a circumstance, and may not be impacted by it as a hardship myself, I can be empathetic that they are genuinely upset/emotional regarding that circumstance. I might not want to pursue a sexual relationship with a man I saw as overly emotive regarding an issue, but I'm pretty good at understanding how that issue might be impacting him and offer sympathy, if not actual empathy, in most cases. I tend to view how someone is being effected by a circumstance as separate from my perception of the circumstance itself.


----------



## 269370

Regardless of how men appear to their partners when they have emotional needs, I think (speaking at least for myself) that need is definitely there to sometimes be emotional.
Sometimes I don't have all the things under control (even if I don't show it to wife) and sometimes I don't want to appear like I have everything under control either - it's tiring and unrealistic (right there, I am being needy). And I have a feeling the older I get, the more I realise that I have less and less control over things. And since I have generally accumulated more over time (friends, family, money etc), there is much more at stake and MUCH more to lose should things go wrong. So if anything, that need to be emotionally vulnerable maybe rises with age if anything IMO.

I wonder if in view of this, it would not be better to have a friend to confide in instead. If that friend is of opposite sex then of course it will be misconstrued as an 'emotional affair'. Which I guess it can become.


----------



## Fozzy

inmyprime said:


> Regardless of how men appear to their partners when they have emotional needs, I think (speaking at least for myself) that need is definitely there to sometimes be emotional.
> Sometimes I don't have all the things under control (even if I don't show it to wife) and sometimes I don't want to appear like I have everything under control either - it's tiring and unrealistic (right there, I am being needy). And I have a feeling the older I get, the more I realise that I have less and less control over things. And since I have generally accumulated more over time (friends, family, money etc), there is much more at stake and MUCH more to lose should things go wrong. So if anything, that need to be emotionally vulnerable maybe rises with age if anything IMO.
> 
> I wonder if in view of this, it would not be better to have a friend to confide in instead. If that friend is of opposite sex then of course it will be misconstrued as an 'emotional affair'. Which I guess it can become.



Oh God. This begs the question "Are emotional affairs inherently one-sided if women truly lack empathy for men?"


----------



## Mr The Other

inmyprime said:


> Regardless of how men appear to their partners when they have emotional needs, I think (speaking at least for myself) that need is definitely there to sometimes be emotional.
> Sometimes I don't have all the things under control (even if I don't show it to wife) and sometimes I don't want to appear like I have everything under control either - it's tiring and unrealistic (right there, I am being needy). And I have a feeling the older I get, the more I realise that I have less and less control over things. And since I have generally accumulated more over time (friends, family, money etc), there is much more at stake and MUCH more to lose should things go wrong. So if anything, that need to be emotionally vulnerable maybe rises with age if anything IMO.
> 
> I wonder if in view of this, it would not be better to have a friend to confide in instead. If that friend is of opposite sex then of course it will be misconstrued as an 'emotional affair'. Which I guess it can become.


I think the last sentance is key. Not seeing men as having full emotions does mean it can be harder to see why men need friends. In fact, it is a useful buffer so that men do not have to dump emotions on their wives and can support them instead.


----------



## 269370

Fozzy said:


> Oh God. This begs the question "Are emotional affairs inherently one-sided if women truly lack empathy for men?"


For some reason it is actually easier to get empathy from someone who is not your partner. I have no idea why. I think many marriages end up with a ton of baggage so that might get in the way, partly.
I am not advocating this btw. Just an observation.


----------



## JayDee7

Yes they lack empathy. When you understand that things start to become clear on how you as a man cannot be sensitive when your wife lacks empathy toward you. She has empathy for children and other women, you have empathy for women and children. It’s either nature or societal norms, but traditionally men protect women and children, women protect each other women and children. 
It’s also why there aren’t as many love songs from women to men, it’s usually men to women. They don’t love the same as we do either, but that’s another topic.


----------



## Mr. Nail

Yes, mine does.
No, they just redefine it so it doesn't include their behavior.
Yes, it is the only way a woman can get a man to stop being childish.
No, it is impossible because only women truly understand empathy because of their advanced EQ.
Pick your favorite. as if the label you put on it makes any difference.


----------



## minimalME

inmyprime said:


> *For some reason it is actually easier to get empathy from someone who is not your partner. I have no idea why.* I think many marriages end up with a ton of baggage so that might get in the way, partly.
> I am not advocating this btw. Just an observation.


I think it's easier cause it's compartmentalized. The listener/empathizer is only getting a very small portion of a much larger picture.

We tend to take each other for granted in closer relationships. And we see all the messiness that others don't.


----------



## 269370

minimalME said:


> I think it's easier cause it's compartmentalized. The listener/empathizer is only getting a very small portion of a much larger picture.
> 
> We tend to take each other for granted in closer relationships. And we see all the messiness that others don't.


One also feels a stranger is less likely to hurt you so maybe it's easier to actually talk openly.
Maybe the solution is to just get a good shrink when that need arises...(see, i already have a solution


----------



## minimalME

inmyprime said:


> One also feels a stranger is less likely to hurt you so maybe it's easier to actually talk openly.


Excellent point. Which is so sad. And a lack of trust.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Fozzy said:


> Totally understandable on the level of sexual attraction. That varies so widely that only the most basic generalities will ever apply. I'm speaking more at the larger non-sexual level of how the majority of women feel regarding the majority of men. Like your visceral gut reaction when you read on the internet about some hardship that men face--would it tend to elicit an empathetic reaction vs eye-rolling. Specifically in contrast to how you might view a similar plight experienced by women, children or elderly.


I tend to generally and sincerely *like* men. I like talking to them, being with them, listening to them, watching them. And I admit that my interest in them is probably fueled by my sexuality and (in the recesses of my subconscious) a selfish desire for sexual attention from them. Not in an overt way, but just a subtle acknowledgment that I'm a woman and he's a man, and nudge, nudge. In no way am I out there flirting and leading on the men I come across, but I can't ignore it, either. Men make me feel sexual, and I like it. It's like my husband's admission of the automatic and subconscious sexual assessment of women that flies through his brain. Neither of us are looking to cheat or do anything inappropriate . . . but at the same time, those thoughts and feelings and responses are just there. Neither of us feel threatened by this--we talk about it openly. 



inmyprime said:


> For some reason it is actually easier to get empathy from someone who is not your partner. I have no idea why. I think many marriages end up with a ton of baggage so that might get in the way, partly.
> I am not advocating this btw. Just an observation.


I have a harder time, I think, in cutting my husband a break with empathy than I do with men in general, because he's my sexual partner. If I'm in that nurturing role, I'm not feeling highly sexual towards him. I definitely and someone who responds to a man who makes me feel sexual more so to one that puts me in the caretaker role. 



inmyprime said:


> One also feels a stranger is less likely to hurt you so maybe it's easier to actually talk openly.
> Maybe the solution is to just get a good shrink when that need arises...(see, i already have a solution


I think a shrink or a good friend is the best option if you have ongoing/prolong periods of needing emotional support. I mean beyond what is usual for the circumstance that caused them. No, I wouldn't send my husband packing to a shrink if he was in a funk a week or two after losing his job. Two months? Yeah, time to get some help with that.


----------



## DustyDog

Faithful Wife said:


> @DustyDog that is fascinating. Can you find the TED talk and link it here?
> @WildMustang ....vulnerable and strong at the same time....




vulnerable and strong at the same time, as described by women who ask for it, is almost impossible. The women I've known have in fact, not been capable of doing so - they even call themselves 'weak' when in their vulnerable moments. If you look up the uses of the two terms in the psychology lexicons out there, you will find that 'strong' and 'vulnerable' are seen as opposites. 

For instance, maybe you think it's a vulnerable position for someone to say "I'm struggling with anxiety, I simply am not dealing with the problems at work and my elderly parents well. I have hope that I will make it through this, because I have in the past." But it's not. That is first an acknowledgement that someone is struggling, but it ends on strength - and the ending is the entire emotive content of such a statement. It would only be vulnerability if the person did NOT indicate hope, or expectation of a good outcome. "I can't see any way this will work out well, I have never handled these situations properly" would be vulnerable...and not whiny, just an expression of their recollections from the past.

As far as Brene Brown, you will find hundreds of hours of her on YouTube and they are ALL worth listening to. Her only topic is vulnerability and related topics such as shame and guilt. You won't have to listen to many of her talks to hear her report on the study.

Another aspect that Brene Brown discusses is that most women don't even SAY they want their man vulnerable. One quote she issues all the time is this: when discussing vulnerability with men early in her research, she got a shock - one man said "I would like to be vulnerable. But that wife and those daughters of mine? They see me up on a horse, wearing armor, and they would rather see me dead than see me fall off that horse". Brene was shocked, then did a study and discovered it to be true for such a large population of women that it's not a stretch for men to expect ALL women to be like that. At some point, Brene pointed to another study about what women want in men, and even when challenged, most women (again, a huge proportion, close to "all" pretty much said if a man isn't strong most of the time, she's not interested in him. 

Sue Johnson, author of "Hold Me Tight" in a blog posting, also commented on this, and confirmed that when she watched videos of the tens of thousands of couples that the Gottmans observed in their 'Love Lab', she clearly saw this trend - rare, she said, was the woman who routinely was able to offer her man emotional support when he 'failed to exhibit more strength than his female partner'.

The woman I am with right now is amazing...get "gets it", she understands how women have constantly asked for things they aren't ready to receive. And yet - unless I am very careful in advance of the conversation to tell her "I am about to express some vulnerability", she reacts just as the man told Brene Brown women react...she actually breaks down into tears and says "I HATE it when you show weakness like that!! I NEED you to be strong". Fair enough, she's a trauma victim...but she's also very good at this. When I do begin a conversation with "I'm going to show vulnerability", she's wise enough to say "I can't take it right now, even though you deserve for me to"....and at the same time she has said she "needs" me to be there for her 100% of the time. Relationships are never balanced - ever - it's a lie to think otherwise. Therefore, it makes all the sense in the world to be honest about the imbalances. She gets more emotional support from me than vice versa. As long as I get some, maybe even enough, and we're clear that this is an imbalance, then I'm OK with it, and so is she. There are imbalances the other direction (such as I can't cook to her satisfaction even though I'm a damned good cook), and we are working toward being aware of them as well.

That was simply an example.


----------



## DustyDog

WildMustang said:


> Right off the top of my head, "Neediness" to me is someone who does not have good boundaries.
> 
> Examples:
> 
> Not being able to just stand firm and be who he truly is while in the presence of me and others, also known as "differentiating", but instead needing to conform to the popular consensus or crowd to fit in, being a chameleon.


And yet, that is exactly the expected behavior in Western Society, from anybody who joins a group they were previously not part of - you grep the room, sort out the character, and get in character. It is the speaking and emotional equivalent of knowing that you should dress formally if you want to go to an event.  Standing firm and being who you truly are can be done excelently by simply remaining quiet when others are stating things with which you don't agree. It is a sign of valor that you do not seek to change the opinions of others except on things that will truly create social change.



WildMustang said:


> Texting me and expecting me to respond immediately or on some arbitrary timeline he imposes without considering what I may be doing, even if it's something he sees as unimportant.


I don't see that as needy. I would say it's a sign of either lack of etiquette - instant responses to texts are not expected in most cases. A simple discussion of what to expect when you text each other is in order and then if it doesn't resolve the issue, what you have is a guy who doesn't care about your preferred means of communicating.



WildMustang said:


> Not wanting me to pursue my interests, hobbies, friendships, etc.


Could be neediness, but it could also possibly be jealousy, which is not a good thing, but is different from needy.



WildMustang said:


> Not having a life of his own with his own interests, hobbies, friendships, but expecting me to be his constant and only source of entertainment.


Again, not so much 'needy' as lacking in ability to engage with the world completely. This is an unfinished person and I'm sure you wouldn't last more than a day in a relationship with him anyway...and I would applaud you for not lasting with him.



WildMustang said:


> Wanting me to "complete him" instead of coming into the relationship as a whole person wanting to meet and be with another whole person.


There are complete people who are still needy. I see this as a sign of being incomplete. Sadly, the entire Western idea of romantic love is based on the assumption that everybody is incomplete, and we get together for the purpose of completing each other.



WildMustang said:


> Only being able to take and not to give.


Selfishness is not always needy, but can be a sign of it.



WildMustang said:


> Wanting to see me flounder or fail so I need him more rather than helping me grow as a person by being supportive
> 
> Depending on me to define him or make him who he is rather than support him in who he is
> 
> These are just a few examples off the top of my head. I could go on and on and on, but you get the idea.


The idea I get is that any failure on his part to be a whole person is defined by you as being "needy". I propose that is a very unusual definition.

As a comparison, I encourage you to seek out the very excellent six-part "Scale of Psychological Well-Being" by Carol Ryff. To me, "needy" is anybody who is incomplete (we all are) on that list, and are expecting someone else to "fix" us.

Nobody passes all of the scales on Ryff's list - the point of the list is to determine your weak areas, so that you can work on them. That said, psychology does NOT exist in a vacuum, it is entirely based on the notion that we live in a society, must interact with that society on many successful levels and our behaviors are SUPPOSED to be largely based on being successful within that society. Certainly, one component of this is self-love and being content with the self. However, a person who is happy alone and does not interact with society is pathological and will die young - our brains and nervous systems force us to be pack animals, and we actually die without suitable human contact. Back in World War II, babies who were only one month premature, place in indubators to remain in sterile environments and never held, died at a rate of 50%. When the nurses broke hospital rules and held these babies, so that their short time on Earth would be more pleasant, the death rate dropped from 50% to 1%. We NEED human contact, therefore it is NORMAL to need feedback from others about how well we're doing at seeking it.

I groked this in my 20s - my mom, who proudly claims she has no friends - has no friends because her way of getting something from someone was to get angry and declare "you hate me or else you would do this....". I learned it...but when I left home, it clearly did not work for me to interact that way, so I observed how others did things and did a complete personality transplant. We can and should adjust our behaviors based on how we are perceived by others. It is normal pack behavior. 

Neediness, as I've read it from all my investigations, is when we stop simply seeking input - and ask someone else to do the work of 'me getting fixed'. It's not just needy, it doesn't work.


----------



## Faithful Wife

DustyDog said:


> vulnerable and strong at the same time, as described by women who ask for it, is almost impossible. The women I've known have in fact, not been capable of doing so - they even call themselves 'weak' when in their vulnerable moments. If you look up the uses of the two terms in the psychology lexicons out there, you will find that 'strong' and 'vulnerable' are seen as opposites....


Well, I'm definitely convinced that there is a pattern and possibly even the majority of women don't want to or can't or won't empathize with male vulnerability.

I didn't realize it was this prevalent but am glad to have my eyes opened to it. I guess it is what it is, but it makes me sad.


----------



## Mr. Nail

lack of vulnerability has been labeled "toxic masculinity". This thread is in danger of plunging headfirst into political incorrectness. 

When all ya'all decide what you want . . . .


----------



## Rowan

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, I'm definitely convinced that there is a pattern and possibly even the majority of women don't want to or can't or won't empathize with male vulnerability.
> 
> I didn't realize it was this prevalent but am glad to have my eyes opened to it. I guess it is what it is, but it makes me sad.


My guess is that you, like me, tend to quickly weed out men who would fall into the category of "too needy" or "too emotional" for your own personal preferences pretty quickly. If a guy is too emotional for you on a frequent enough basis, you simply do not find yourself getting into a relationship with him because he is not attractive to you. A man who is emotionally needy enough to be a turn off to you just never makes it into "partner" territory. Hence, your earlier statement:


Faithful Wife said:


> Totally with ya....I guess I've just never experienced a man do this: "*angst turns into fretting, whining, fitfulness, pouting, lashing out, anything that screams 'lack of emotional awareness and control*". If I did experience that, yeah then va-clang. I would think any man I've been with would feel the same about a woman exhibiting the bolded things.


And, as you say, I also think a lot of men would feel that sort of emotional instability to be a turn off in a prospective long-term partner. 

However, there are a lot of people - men and women - in the world who lack empathy for others. Some are more capable of empathy for the young or old. Some are more able to experience it for their same sex, or for the opposite sex. But narcissism, which our society as a whole seems to be encouraging to an ever-increasing degree, does not foster empathy. The more selfish and self-absorbed an individual is, the lower their capacity to be empathetic to anyone. There are plenty of men who lack empathy for women, as well as the numbers of women who lack empathy for men. The trick is to try and recognize signs of a lack of empathy in specific individuals early on, and avoid partnering up with those sorts of folks. I misjudged, badly, in my marriage. So I tend to be more aware of it now and quickly "next" anyone who is lacking in a level of empathy I am comfortable with. Just as I "next" anyone lacking a level of emotional stability that I am comfortable with.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, I'm definitely convinced that there is a pattern and possibly even the majority of women don't want to or can't or won't empathize with male vulnerability.
> 
> I didn't realize it was this prevalent but am glad to have my eyes opened to it. I guess it is what it is, but it makes me sad.


I can and do empathize with male vulnerability. No issues there. My point is that some types of emotional expression (I've been calling it "neediness" to differentiate it) that presume an empathetic response from me can affect my sexual attraction. I don't actively not empathize so as to avoid a dip in my desire, but I'm cognizant of that dip. 

I just want to make sure that nuance is clear as least as far as my contributions to this thread go.


----------



## Maxwedge 413

WildMustang said:


> Not trying to be obtuse here, but I don't get the point you are trying to make.
> 
> What is the discrepancy???


Yes, I don't see it either MrtheOther. And where in that nice little tale did anyone's feelings get hurt, or did anyone commit suicide? Are you saying that since I have an awesome wife and can maintain healthy adult relationships - Just like the couple in your story - that I am misservicing my wife by pretending she cannot be a bi**h? She can,believe me, but very rarely does because we are well matched and rarely tick each other off.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rowan said:


> My guess is that you, like me, tend to quickly weed out men who would fall into the category of "too needy" or "too emotional" for your own personal preferences pretty quickly. If a guy is too emotional for you on a frequent enough basis, you simply do not find yourself getting into a relationship with him. A man who is emotionally needy enough to be a turn off to you just never makes it into "partner" territory. Hence, your earlier statement:
> 
> 
> And, as you say, I also think a lot of men would feel that sort of emotional instability to be a turn off in a prospective long-term partner.
> 
> However, there are a lot of people - men and women - in the world who lack empathy for others. Some are more capable of empathy for the young or old. Some are more able to experience it for their same sex, or for the opposite sex. But narcissism, which our society as a whole seems to be encouraging to an ever-increasing degree, does not foster empathy. The more selfish and self-absorbed an individual is, the lower their capacity to be empathetic to anyone. There are plenty of men who lack empathy for women, as well as the numbers of women who lack empathy for men. The trick is to try and recognize signs of a lack of empathy in specific individuals early on, and avoid partnering up with those sorts of folks. I misjudged, badly, in my marriage. So I tend to be more aware of it now and quickly "next" anyone who is lacking in a level of empathy I am comfortable with. Just as I "next" anyone lacking a level of emotional stability that I am comfortable with.


Yes, I just haven't experienced the type of instability or neediness you are describing here. I don't think anyone is truly attracted to that, though for some it still might not turn them off (male or female). I've known a few people who went into relationships with unstable people because they "were so hot" or some other reason, but they meant "hot" physically only and otherwise they were not emotionally attracted to the person and of course end up trying to flee after some amount of time.

But what makes me sad in this thread are the stories by some of the men here, where they are not even able to cry at their own father's funeral without their wife losing attraction and respect for them. Or if they truly can't just be verbally vulnerable without the loss of attraction happening. I understand that what turns us on or off is largely outside of our control so for those women who lose attraction at those times, I don't see how it could be helped (other than like Getting It is saying, show empathy even if not feeling it organically). But to me that's still sad for the man. 

I know that Getting it has mostly responsive desire. Maybe that is part of the difference. I seem to have spontaneous desire and am switched on all the time. So it would take quite a lot to shut down my normal HD level. So since there are very few things that would make this happen, it just doesn't happen, and I feel attracted to him all the time, no matter what is coming out of his mouth or mine. But if I felt what GI is describing, and suddenly the loss of attraction was so acute I couldn't deny it, then like her, I would strive to minimize things that lower my attraction (because that would feel bad to me, I want to feel attracted to him always). And I guess that would mean trying not to see him when he's vulnerable in a way that turns me off, so in my head I can understand this....but my heart doesn't get it at all so emotionally I can't really understand it.


----------



## Mr The Other

Maxwedge 413 said:


> Yes, I don't see it either MrtheOther. And where in that nice little tale did anyone's feelings get hurt, or did anyone commit suicide? Are you saying that since I have an awesome wife and can maintain healthy adult relationships - Just like the couple in your story - that I am misservicing my wife by pretending she cannot be a bi**h? She can,believe me, but very rarely does because we are well matched and rarely tick each other off.


I am saying that you are a fortuante man. If you read a little further, you will see I explained that point a bit more clearly for those to whom it was unclear. 

I am not saying those things. That is why I did not write them.

I (perhaps through a lack of empathy :grin2 struggle to see why the post would upset you. 

I am glad you have a lovely wife. Good for you. I think men are often harder to sympathise with than women, I am sorry that upsets you.

I was married before, like you. I was engaged to a woman who cared abou tmy well being to a great extent for its own sake. I assume you were too. That changed. I could declare that she was just a terrible woman or that you and I are terrible men, but I do not think that is true. 

I am now with a lovely, caring, beautiful lady. That is not because I am amazing, but because she is caring. It seems you are in the same position! Maybe one days we will be BFFs! 

PS: I do realize that I am giving credit to your wife rather than you. I am also aware that you seem very sensitive, so I assure you that I have no doubt you are a very decent and lovely man worthy of the love you get. Go You!


----------



## RandomDude

DustyDog said:


> vulnerable and strong at the same time, as described by women who ask for it, is almost impossible. The women I've known have in fact, not been capable of doing so - they even call themselves 'weak' when in their vulnerable moments. If you look up the uses of the two terms in the psychology lexicons out there, you will find that 'strong' and 'vulnerable' are seen as opposites.
> 
> For instance, maybe you think it's a vulnerable position for someone to say "I'm struggling with anxiety, I simply am not dealing with the problems at work and my elderly parents well. I have hope that I will make it through this, because I have in the past." But it's not. That is first an acknowledgement that someone is struggling, but it ends on strength - and the ending is the entire emotive content of such a statement. It would only be vulnerability if the person did NOT indicate hope, or expectation of a good outcome. "I can't see any way this will work out well, I have never handled these situations properly" would be vulnerable...and not whiny, just an expression of their recollections from the past.


I like that, even a moment of vulnerability can be forgiven if it takes less than a minute to pick themselves up. That's admirable for me.



> As far as Brene Brown, you will find hundreds of hours of her on YouTube and they are ALL worth listening to. Her only topic is vulnerability and related topics such as shame and guilt. You won't have to listen to many of her talks to hear her report on the study.
> 
> Another aspect that Brene Brown discusses is that most women don't even SAY they want their man vulnerable. One quote she issues all the time is this: when discussing vulnerability with men early in her research, she got a shock - one man said "I would like to be vulnerable. But that wife and those daughters of mine? They see me up on a horse, wearing armor, and they would rather see me dead than see me fall off that horse". Brene was shocked, then did a study and discovered it to be true for such a large population of women that it's not a stretch for men to expect ALL women to be like that. At some point, Brene pointed to another study about what women want in men, and even when challenged, most women (again, a huge proportion, close to "all" pretty much said if a man isn't strong most of the time, she's not interested in him.


Ha! "Come home with this shield, or upon it"


----------



## Rowan

Faithful Wife said:


> But what makes me sad in this thread are the stories by some of the men here, where they are not even able to cry at their own father's funeral without their wife losing attraction and respect for them. Or if they truly can't just be verbally vulnerable without the loss of attraction happening. I understand that what turns us on or off is largely outside of our control so for those women who lose attraction at those times, I don't see how it could be helped (other than like Getting It is saying, show empathy even if not feeling it organically). But to me that's still sad for the man.


I agree. I think it's super sad and very hurtful that some of the men here are unable to express normal emotion without their wives' reacting badly. At a guess, I would say that likely happens when the woman is dependent on her partner to provide her with emotional stability that she herself may be lacking. If he is being emotional, then her own stability is threatened, so she lashes out in an attempt to get him to return to the position of stabilizing her. I would find such lashing out in reaction to normal emotion problematic in a mate, myself, because of my distaste for needing to be responsible for a partner's emotional state. But everyone has to decide if the trade-offs in their relationship are acceptable to them. In some cases, clearly the trade-offs are worth it and things like this are simply accepted and managed.


----------



## Mr The Other

Rowan said:


> I agree. I think it's super sad and very hurtful that some of the men here are unable to express normal emotion without their wives' reacting badly. At a guess, I would say that likely happens when the woman is dependent on her partner to provide her with emotional stability that she herself may be lacking. If he is being emotional, then her own stability is threatened, so she lashes out in an attempt to get him to return to the position of stabilizing her. I would find such lashing out in reaction to normal emotion problematic in a mate, myself, because of my distaste for needing to be responsible for a partner's emotional state. But everyone has to decide if the trade-offs in their relationship are acceptable to them. In some cases, clearly the trade-offs are worth it and things like this are simply accepted and managed.


I think this is very fair. There are trade-offs in every relationship and a man seeming vulnerable will deeply hurt some partners. It does not make them horrible people.


----------



## RandomDude

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, I'm definitely convinced that there is a pattern and possibly even the majority of women don't want to or can't or won't empathize with male vulnerability.
> 
> I didn't realize it was this prevalent but am glad to have my eyes opened to it. I guess it is what it is, but it makes me sad.


Why sad? 'Tis a good thing, otherwise men will remain little boys.


----------



## Wolf1974

My few experiences with being vulnerable was not taken well so I admit I purposely don’t show it anymore. I am reminded of the time 12years ago when I cried at the funeral of my friend who was murdered and my x told me I need to relax and calm down as if I was acting hysterically or something. Other examples with her and others but this was one that stood out when I read the opening post about lack of empathy. It’s for sure a real world thing.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolf1974 said:


> My few experiences with being vulnerable was not taken well so I admit I purposely don’t show it anymore. I am reminded of the time 12years ago when I cried at the funeral of my friend who was murdered and my x told me I need to relax and calm down as if I was acting hysterically or something. Other examples with her and others but this was one that stood out when I read the opening post about lack of empathy. It’s for sure a real world thing.


Sounds similar to what @MEM2020 described, and yet he seems resigned to it (and I know he feels "happily married"). It still makes me sad. I don't see how you men (in this example) can hold it in forever and never authentically express those very real and normal emotions that you feel at those times and other times not quite so tragic but still cause deep emotions in life.

I went to only 2 funerals with my ex-h, and if he had *not* cried I would have wondered what was wrong with him. When he *did* cry, I felt extreme empathy for him and also a very high level of emotional attraction. I felt I was seeing a side of him that most of us don't express until someone dies, and it is so raw and real that it is actually refreshing in a way. That always lead to feeling extreme sexual attraction for him later in the evening when everything had settled down a bit.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> Sounds similar to what @MEM2020 described, and yet he seems resigned to it (and I know he feels "happily married"). It still makes me sad. I don't see how you men (in this example) can hold it in forever and never authentically express those very real and normal emotions that you feel at those times and other times not quite so tragic but still cause deep emotions in life.
> 
> I went to only 2 funerals with my ex-h, and if he had *not* cried I would have wondered what was wrong with him. When he *did* cry, I felt extreme empathy for him and also a very high level of emotional attraction. I felt I was seeing a side of him that most of us don't express until someone dies, and it is so raw and real that it is actually refreshing in a way. That always lead to feeling extreme sexual attraction for him later in the evening when everything had settled down a bit.


You do express it, nothing is going to stop it when it becomes overwhelming, you just learn to wait and express it alone 

Reminds me of my Drill Instructors saying “your momma cares about you no one else here does” lol suddenly that ******* seems like a wise man


----------



## WildMustang

DustyDog said:


> And yet, that is exactly the expected behavior in Western Society, from anybody who joins a group they were previously not part of - you grep the room, sort out the character, and get in character. It is the speaking and emotional equivalent of knowing that you should dress formally if you want to go to an event. Standing firm and being who you truly are can be done excelently by simply remaining quiet when others are stating things with which you don't agree. It is a sign of valor that you do not seek to change the opinions of others except on things that will truly create social change.
> 
> 
> I don't see that as needy. I would say it's a sign of either lack of etiquette - instant responses to texts are not expected in most cases. A simple discussion of what to expect when you text each other is in order and then if it doesn't resolve the issue, what you have is a guy who doesn't care about your preferred means of communicating.
> 
> 
> Could be neediness, but it could also possibly be jealousy, which is not a good thing, but is different from needy.
> 
> 
> Again, not so much 'needy' as lacking in ability to engage with the world completely. This is an unfinished person and I'm sure you wouldn't last more than a day in a relationship with him anyway...and I would applaud you for not lasting with him.
> 
> 
> There are complete people who are still needy. I see this as a sign of being incomplete. Sadly, the entire Western idea of romantic love is based on the assumption that everybody is incomplete, and we get together for the purpose of completing each other.
> 
> 
> Selfishness is not always needy, but can be a sign of it.
> 
> 
> 
> The idea I get is that any failure on his part to be a whole person is defined by you as being "needy". I propose that is a very unusual definition.
> 
> As a comparison, I encourage you to seek out the very excellent six-part "Scale of Psychological Well-Being" by Carol Ryff. To me, "needy" is anybody who is incomplete (we all are) on that list, and are expecting someone else to "fix" us.
> 
> Nobody passes all of the scales on Ryff's list - the point of the list is to determine your weak areas, so that you can work on them. That said, psychology does NOT exist in a vacuum, it is entirely based on the notion that we live in a society, must interact with that society on many successful levels and our behaviors are SUPPOSED to be largely based on being successful within that society. Certainly, one component of this is self-love and being content with the self. However, a person who is happy alone and does not interact with society is pathological and will die young - our brains and nervous systems force us to be pack animals, and we actually die without suitable human contact. Back in World War II, babies who were only one month premature, place in indubators to remain in sterile environments and never held, died at a rate of 50%. When the nurses broke hospital rules and held these babies, so that their short time on Earth would be more pleasant, the death rate dropped from 50% to 1%. We NEED human contact, therefore it is NORMAL to need feedback from others about how well we're doing at seeking it.
> 
> I groked this in my 20s - my mom, who proudly claims she has no friends - has no friends because her way of getting something from someone was to get angry and declare "you hate me or else you would do this....". I learned it...but when I left home, it clearly did not work for me to interact that way, so I observed how others did things and did a complete personality transplant. We can and should adjust our behaviors based on how we are perceived by others. It is normal pack behavior.
> 
> Neediness, as I've read it from all my investigations, is when we stop simply seeking input - and ask someone else to do the work of 'me getting fixed'. It's not just needy, it doesn't work.


Those examples I gave of neediness are a few examples of *behaviors that manifest* as a result of "needing" me to fix him, to make him complete.

We both agree that needy behavior can be defined as expecting someone else to do the job of fixing them and completing them.

I thought my examples were a brief illustration of how that manifests in everyday behavior. Perhaps I could have done a better job of drawing the line from A to B.

I do not define neediness as simply any failure to be a whole person. But one way I do define it is *failing to be a whole person while trying to make me responsible for it*. (I think we are both on the same page with this)


----------



## chillymorn69

Faithful Wife said:


> Sounds similar to what @MEM2020 described, and yet he seems resigned to it (and I know he feels "happily married"). It still makes me sad. I don't see how you men (in this example) can hold it in forever and never authentically express those very real and normal emotions that you feel at those times and other times not quite so tragic but still cause deep emotions in life.
> 
> I went to only 2 funerals with my ex-h, and if he had *not* cried I would have wondered what was wrong with him. When he *did* cry, I felt extreme empathy for him and also a very high level of emotional attraction. I felt I was seeing a side of him that most of us don't express until someone dies, and it is so raw and real that it is actually refreshing in a way. That always lead to feeling extreme sexual attraction for him later in the evening when everything had settled down a bit.


I never cry! I feel sad but never cry. Long ago when I was a child I cried over something stupid don't even remember what it was. After my father said after I was done .

" son crying will not change anything because when your done and wipe your eyes the situation will not have changed . Better to use that energy to change your situation or take the task to hand than to waste it on crying"

Don't think I've cried since.

Not true 11/2 years after my mother died driving home from work thinking about her and tears welled up I couldn't have stoped it if I tried but it wasn't long maybe 10mins and then I remember wat dad said and I though hes right. Shes still gone all the crying in the world won't bring her back.

I don't feel better after crying I feel foolish and weak. 

I did see my father cry when my sister died she was 26yrs old. 

Maybe I'm broken.


----------



## WildMustang

DustyDog said:


> vulnerable and strong at the same time, as described by women who ask for it, is almost impossible. The women I've known have in fact, not been capable of doing so - they even call themselves 'weak' when in their vulnerable moments. If you look up the uses of the two terms in the psychology lexicons out there, you will find that 'strong' and 'vulnerable' are seen as opposites.
> 
> For instance, maybe you think it's a vulnerable position for someone to say "I'm struggling with anxiety, I simply am not dealing with the problems at work and my elderly parents well. I have hope that I will make it through this, because I have in the past." But it's not. That is first an acknowledgement that someone is struggling, but it ends on strength - and the ending is the entire emotive content of such a statement. It would only be vulnerability if the person did NOT indicate hope, or expectation of a good outcome. "I can't see any way this will work out well, I have never handled these situations properly" would be vulnerable...and not whiny, just an expression of their recollections from the past.
> 
> As far as Brene Brown, you will find hundreds of hours of her on YouTube and they are ALL worth listening to. Her only topic is vulnerability and related topics such as shame and guilt. You won't have to listen to many of her talks to hear her report on the study.
> 
> Another aspect that Brene Brown discusses is that most women don't even SAY they want their man vulnerable. One quote she issues all the time is this: when discussing vulnerability with men early in her research, she got a shock - one man said "I would like to be vulnerable. But that wife and those daughters of mine? They see me up on a horse, wearing armor, and they would rather see me dead than see me fall off that horse". Brene was shocked, then did a study and discovered it to be true for such a large population of women that it's not a stretch for men to expect ALL women to be like that. At some point, Brene pointed to another study about what women want in men, and even when challenged, most women (again, a huge proportion, close to "all" pretty much said if a man isn't strong most of the time, she's not interested in him.
> 
> Sue Johnson, author of "Hold Me Tight" in a blog posting, also commented on this, and confirmed that when she watched videos of the tens of thousands of couples that the Gottmans observed in their 'Love Lab', she clearly saw this trend - rare, she said, was the woman who routinely was able to offer her man emotional support when he 'failed to exhibit more strength than his female partner'.
> 
> The woman I am with right now is amazing...get "gets it", she understands how women have constantly asked for things they aren't ready to receive. And yet - unless I am very careful in advance of the conversation to tell her "I am about to express some vulnerability", she reacts just as the man told Brene Brown women react...she actually breaks down into tears and says "I HATE it when you show weakness like that!! I NEED you to be strong". Fair enough, she's a trauma victim...but she's also very good at this. When I do begin a conversation with "I'm going to show vulnerability", she's wise enough to say "I can't take it right now, even though you deserve for me to"....and at the same time she has said she "needs" me to be there for her 100% of the time. Relationships are never balanced - ever - it's a lie to think otherwise. Therefore, it makes all the sense in the world to be honest about the imbalances. She gets more emotional support from me than vice versa. As long as I get some, maybe even enough, and we're clear that this is an imbalance, then I'm OK with it, and so is she. There are imbalances the other direction (such as I can't cook to her satisfaction even though I'm a damned good cook), and we are working toward being aware of them as well.
> 
> That was simply an example.


I am familiar with Brene Brown's TED talks and I have read her 4 books and watched her TED talks.

Some of the excellent examples she gives (and I totally agree with) of being vulnerable and strong at the same time:

A product designer who launches a new product

A writer who publishes a book

A songwriter who writes a song

An architect who designs a new home

These are just a few examples and in no way exhaustive, but the idea is, the person was vulnerable at the time and did it anyway (a sign of strength). What if their product or movie or song or book was a flop and totally failed? Their name is on the line, their career is on the line, their reputation is on the line, (all vulnerability) etc. And yet, they did it anyway (strength). 

The whole issue of embarrassment and shame comes up. If it fails, embarrassment and shame surfaces. So it is a sign of strength when the person strongly does it anyway, vulnerably facing the chance it could fail and they feel embarrassment and shame.

It's the same point I was making, but on a much deeper level, when men, who all their lives, and for countless generations, have been shamed for showing emotion as being weak, but they bravely, courageously and strongly learn to stand firmly in that vulnerability and show their emotion anyway, regardless of others shaming them. 

*THAT IS STRENGTH AND VULNERABILITY AT THE SAME TIME!*

I am not a man, so I don't know what that's like, but I highly suspect it is very hard to do, especially in this day when men showing vulnerability or emotion is still mocked and ridiculed.

I cannot speak for other women. I can only speak for myself. And I can tell you, that I see it as being strong when a man faces those fears (of ridicule, mockery, annoyance, shame) and expresses how he truly feels in spite of it.

I cannot speak for other women or what they think about it, but I do believe and hope and pray, that men can be accepted for being human with very real emotions and vulnerabilities. To expect them not to, is cruel, in my opinion.


----------



## WildMustang

@DustyDog your quote - "vulnerable and strong at the same time, as described by women who ask for it, is almost impossible. The women I've known have in fact, not been capable of doing so - they even call themselves 'weak' when in their vulnerable moments."

I have also witnessed this dynamic, and I think, again, it is due to conditioning...we were all conditioned (perhaps with good intentions) to "keep a stiff upper lip", "don't cry", "keep it inside" etc and *MEN MORE SO **THAN WOMEN*, but I think people are starting to realize that these practices are not healthy.

I don't want or need men to "BE EMOTIONAL" if their natural personality is not to be emotional. 

I don't want or need men to act like women and I am not asking them to.

I recognize the differences in men and women and I celebrate those differences!

*I just want men to feel the freedom as fellow human beings to be vulnerable and express their emotions if and when they do come up.* That's all.

It's a cruel cage we (society as a whole) have put men into to expect them to never show emotion, to never expose their vulnerability. 

My God, men are not robots!


----------



## DustyDog

RandomDude said:


> I like that, even a moment of vulnerability can be forgiven if it takes less than a minute to pick themselves up. That's admirable for me


That is EXACTLY the problem!!! From women, vulnerability is expected and celebrated. From men, vulnerability is a mistake that requires forgiveness.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolf1974 said:


> You do express it, nothing is going to stop it when it becomes overwhelming, you just learn to wait and express it alone
> 
> Reminds me of my Drill Instructors saying “your momma cares about you no one else here does” lol suddenly that ******* seems like a wise man


That still sounds tragic to me in a way that I can't describe. 

I mean, a drill instructor, sure, of course, that's their job to have no empathy for you and push you up the hill. 

But your woman? Tragic.

- - - - 

My most recent boyfriend had told me some crap his ex-w had done to him (and sometimes continues to do to him) and after seeing her in action a few times, I started feeling really protective of him. NOT THAT HE NEEDED my protection in anyway. It was just more of a "he's mine now beeotch, keep your stupid games to yourself and stop trying to jerk him around" (they have kids together so will always have involvement in each other's lives to some extent). 

After yet another incident where she was just being horrid to him that he was telling me about, he stopped himself and said "oh no, I can see on your face, do you not respect me now? Do I seem weak? Maybe I shouldn't tell you these things, I don't want you to think less of me or be less attracted to me or feeling sorry for me". I said "No way you don't seem weak! And no I don't feel _sorry_ for you I feel *protective* of you. After all she's done to you I just wish you didn't have to deal with her anymore and I can't stand her! But you can of course tell me about whatever you want". 

He hugged me and said "Awwwww....you feel protective of me? That's sweet." In that moment, I realized that this man had never had anyone have "protective" feelings about him ever since childhood. He did not recognize the empathy and sadness on my face originally, he thought I was making an "ew" face instead of a "oh my gosh that makes me so sad for you, I want to slap that beeotch!" face.

I said to him "of course you don't need my protection and I know you aren't asking for it, but I can't help getting my dander up when I hear the crap she does to you". I swear he was glowing after I said that, and he clearly just felt warm and fuzzy knowing I was on his side, that I cared enough to feel protective (even though I can do nothing to help), and that I had empathy. He was never weak about it, never talked too much about it, but I could see on his face when he had to deal with her that it was a huge emotional burden just getting through any interaction with her. There was such a horrific backstory too, which made her crap all the more hard to swallow. He was indeed vulnerable in telling me about some of those things, without being needy, whiny, or even hateful toward her. He was just authentically telling me about his emotional life.

Again - all of that made me MORE attracted to him, not less.


----------



## WildMustang

@DustyDog, Your quote:

The woman I am with right now is amazing...get "gets it", she understands how women have constantly asked for things they aren't ready to receive. And yet - unless I am very careful in advance of the conversation to tell her "I am about to express some vulnerability", she reacts just as the man told Brene Brown women react...she actually breaks down into tears and says "I HATE it when you show weakness like that!! I NEED you to be strong". Fair enough, she's a trauma victim...but she's also very good at this. When I do begin a conversation with "I'm going to show vulnerability", she's wise enough to say "I can't take it right now, even though you deserve for me to"....and at the same time she has said she "needs" me to be there for her 100% of the time. Relationships are never balanced - ever - it's a lie to think otherwise. Therefore, it makes all the sense in the world to be honest about the imbalances. She gets more emotional support from me than vice versa. As long as I get some, maybe even enough, and we're clear that this is an imbalance, then I'm OK with it, and so is she. There are imbalances the other direction (such as I can't cook to her satisfaction even though I'm a damned good cook), and we are working toward being aware of them as well.

I think it is plausible that most women today may be asking for things they are not ready to receive with asking men to be comfortable in exposing their vulnerabilities and emotions.

Because we have all had this conditioning that"Big boys don't cry" or "Get up...you're okay...just brush it off..." 

You said yourself, you are annoyed by it. Lots of folks are. That is evident. 

But we have to start somewhere. I said before, I think the pendulum has begun to swing in the other direction, thanks to work by psychologists and other people such as Brene Brown.

I strongly disagree with your premise that "Relationships are never balanced - ever - it's a lie to think otherwise." 

Respectfully, in your world, that may be true. And that may work for you guys, which is great! Good for you! Happy for you! 

But that is not a universal truth that applies to all relationships and all people.


----------



## WildMustang

DustyDog said:


> That is EXACTLY the problem!!! From women, vulnerability is expected and celebrated. From men, vulnerability is a mistake that requires forgiveness.


I am speaking only for myself. This is my opinion only.

I just want men to know it's okay to be real. 

It's okay to be human. 

You don't have to pretend you don't have vulnerabilities and emotions, because we all know you do.

This thread is titled, "Do women have empathy for men?"

I do.


----------



## Faithful Wife

WildMustang said:


> I am speaking only for myself. This is my opinion only.
> 
> I just want men to know it's okay to be real.
> 
> It's okay to be human.
> 
> *You don't have to pretend you don't have vulnerabilities and emotions, because we all know you do*.
> 
> This thread is titled, "Do women have empathy for men?"
> 
> I do.


Although I'm in agreement with you...it sounds to me like these guys DO have to do the bolded, that they have to pretend not to have vulnerabilities and emotions, or else the women in their lives will reject them. It is apparently a coping mechanism for them to just shut it down and hide it. That makes me sad, however, if I were in their position I would do the same! To be vulnerable and have someone emotionally slap you across the face and tell you to snap out of it because you are unattractive? I would never ever reveal myself to a person who was like that ever again, no matter who he or she was.

Only thing is, I wouldn't be able to stop myself from resenting and strongly disliking that person if I was married to them.


----------



## WildMustang

chillymorn69 said:


> I never cry! I feel sad but never cry. Long ago when I was a child I cried over something stupid don't even remember what it was. After my father said after I was done .
> 
> " son crying will not change anything because when your done and wipe your eyes the situation will not have changed . Better to use that energy to change your situation or take the task to hand than to waste it on crying"
> 
> Don't think I've cried since.
> 
> Not true 11/2 years after my mother died driving home from work thinking about her and tears welled up I couldn't have stoped it if I tried but it wasn't long maybe 10mins and then I remember wat dad said and I though hes right. Shes still gone all the crying in the world won't bring her back.
> 
> I don't feel better after crying I feel foolish and weak.
> 
> I did see my father cry when my sister died she was 26yrs old.
> 
> Maybe I'm broken.


 @chillymorn69, you are *NOT* broken!

Like all of us, myself included, your parents probably did the best they could with all the knowledge and life experiences they had, to raise you to the best of their ability, and most likely, it was good and it was good enough. Perfect? Nope. No parent is.

But I suspect that feeling you have of being "foolish and weak" is a result of conditioning by your family and society at large.

People were wired with emotions for a reason, to warn us against harm, to protect us from harm, to help us survive, to help us build relationships and bind communities.


----------



## 269370

If I may (and I probably may not...if so, happy to delete this post): but how come you find it so easy/natural to understand the man's need for emotional support at times when he needs it but then when it comes to his sexual needs, suddenly it's the LD who has priority and needs to be respected instead. It's not meant to be a provocative question, I am simply curious about this dissonance (it seems like a dissonance to me, perhaps it's coloured by personal experience).

Does emotional need somehow trump sexual need? (I personally think both are probably equal but it depends...). Arguably, sexual need is actually easier to meet (it again depends, but in majority of cases, that would be the case).

There also comes a point where both needs (naturally) intersect/overlap: a man can be so frustrated sexually that he becomes an emotional wreck (same for women of course, I am just using men because of the thread title).

I hesitate to say this because it is maybe too personal (and I could be wrong) but it seems to me that you decided (with your head/rational thinking) to accept the fact that your ex-husband may not always have returned your desire towards him (and even respect him for it) as a way to deal with what must have been pretty difficult situation at the time - contrary to how you sometimes describe it. While there's nothing wrong with that (I think it is great to try and view things only in positive light, after a break up), I am just not sure that others (in similar situations) are able to make themselves see their situations in this light when you ask them to apply the same standard (referring to the LD/HD debates). 



Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, I just haven't experienced the type of instability or neediness you are describing here. I don't think anyone is truly attracted to that, though for some it still might not turn them off (male or female). I've known a few people who went into relationships with unstable people because they "were so hot" or some other reason, but they meant "hot" physically only and otherwise they were not emotionally attracted to the person and of course end up trying to flee after some amount of time.
> 
> But what makes me sad in this thread are the stories by some of the men here, where they are not even able to cry at their own father's funeral without their wife losing attraction and respect for them. Or if they truly can't just be verbally vulnerable without the loss of attraction happening. I understand that what turns us on or off is largely outside of our control so for those women who lose attraction at those times, I don't see how it could be helped (other than like Getting It is saying, show empathy even if not feeling it organically). But to me that's still sad for the man.
> 
> I know that Getting it has mostly responsive desire. Maybe that is part of the difference. I seem to have spontaneous desire and am switched on all the time. So it would take quite a lot to shut down my normal HD level. So since there are very few things that would make this happen, it just doesn't happen, and I feel attracted to him all the time, no matter what is coming out of his mouth or mine. But if I felt what GI is describing, and suddenly the loss of attraction was so acute I couldn't deny it, then like her, I would strive to minimize things that lower my attraction (because that would feel bad to me, I want to feel attracted to him always). And I guess that would mean trying not to see him when he's vulnerable in a way that turns me off, so in my head I can understand this....but my heart doesn't get it at all so emotionally I can't really understand it.


----------



## RandomDude

DustyDog said:


> That is EXACTLY the problem!!! From women, vulnerability is expected and celebrated. From men, vulnerability is a mistake that requires forgiveness.


Well yeah, if you see it that way. 

When it comes to women I only tolerate their vulnerability, I don't like it either, I just accept them as they are... to a point. My patience has its limits. As for men however, I like being able to deal with men, a relief from all the touchy feely and talking about emotions and feelings all day.

Everyone has their moment of weakness sure, but others will judge for it and worse others will exploit it. So this problem, as you put it, helps remind men of survival 101, so I don't see it as a bad thing.

The idea of men being vulnerable just seems so soft and first world, to me anyway...


----------



## Faithful Wife

inmyprime said:


> I hesitate to say this because it is maybe too personal (and I could be wrong) but it seems to me that you decided (with your head/rational thinking) *to accept the fact that your ex-husband may not always have returned your desire towards him (and even respect him for it) as a way to deal with what must have been pretty difficult situation at the time - contrary to how you sometimes describe it.* While there's nothing wrong with that (I think it is great to try and view things only in positive light, after a break up), I am just not sure that others (in similar situations) are able to make themselves see their situations in this light when you ask them to apply the same standard (referring to the LD/HD debates).


Please stop addressing me at all since you refuse to believe the words I have written about myself and my relationship. I resent that you keep doing this and outright ignoring my truth when I have stated it to you over and over. You have no idea where I stand on anything because you keep projecting what you THINK has happened in my mind and my life, regardless of my many attempts to set it straight with you. I have stopped responding to you completely for months now, and I am going to go back to ignoring you after this post, regardless if you honor my wish for you to leave me alone or not. But I am speaking out this time because you have no right to litter my thread (or anywhere on TAM) with the nonsense that you have decided for yourself is my life details. I'm respectfully asking you to stop addressing me at all.


----------



## WildMustang

Faithful Wife said:


> Although I'm in agreement with you...it sounds to me like these guys DO have to do the bolded, that they have to pretend not to have vulnerabilities and emotions, or else the women in their lives will reject them. It is apparently a coping mechanism for them to just shut it down and hide it. That makes me sad, however, if I were in their position I would do the same! To be vulnerable and have someone emotionally slap you across the face and tell you to snap out of it because you are unattractive? I would never ever reveal myself to a person who was like that ever again, no matter who he or she was.
> 
> Only thing is, I wouldn't be able to stop myself from resenting and strongly disliking that person if I was married to them.


*YES!!! Men have had to pretend they don't have vulnerabilities and emotions!!!! That is the only way they could have survived!!!! They had to adapt to those expectations!!!!*

*Which again, is a sign of men's GREAT STRENGTH!* 

I cannot imagine how hard it must be to have emotions and vulnerabilities and not be allowed to express them, to have to repress them and suppress them, only for them to leak out in other forms such as addictions, depression, mood disorders, heart attacks, obesity, violence, you name it.

*MY CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS THREAD ARE IN NO WAY MEANT AS AN ATTACK OR CRITICISM OF ANY KIND ON MEN!*. Nothing I have offered is meant as a criticism or attack. (Sometimes meaning is lost through typing/text)

Quite the opposite, I love men. I support men. I want men to be healthy and happy. I want men to feel safe with me and in the world in expressing their vulnerabilities and emotions.

I think we have done men a HUGE injustice to cruelly not allow them to be fully human.

If I were in their position, I seriously question and highly doubt whether I could hold up as they have, in relationships, in the workforce, everywhere, having to deny this aspect of my humanity.

Men have thrived in spite of it, again, a testament to their courage and their strength, but not without taking its heavy toll on them.

I don't know how they do it or have done it...but I do want them to know with me, it isn't necessary.


----------



## WildMustang

@inmyprime
Quote:
Originally Posted by inmyprime View Post
I hesitate to say this because it is maybe too personal (and I could be wrong) but it seems to me that you decided (with your head/rational thinking) to accept the fact that your ex-husband may not always have returned your desire towards him (and even respect him for it) as a way to deal with what must have been pretty difficult situation at the time - contrary to how you sometimes describe it. While there's nothing wrong with that (I think it is great to try and view things only in positive light, after a break up), I am just not sure that others (in similar situations) are able to make themselves see their situations in this light when you ask them to apply the same standard (referring to the LD/HD debates).

Listen, Dude, what is it with you?? I have seen you harass @faithfulwife in the past about this very issue and I think @MEM2020 even called you out on it several weeks ago. Why do you insist on continually poking her over this issue when she has made it abundantly clear she did not experience her relationship as you like to claim.

Your behavior toward her is bully behavior. Not cool!

She doesn't need me to defend her, but I for one, recognize it for what it is. So do others. You need to stop!


----------



## ConanHub

Just have to say, this topic wigs me out almost more than the sex starved threads.


----------



## chillymorn69

ConanHub said:


> Just have to say, this topic wigs me out almost more than the sex starved threads.


Are you saying when you wear a wig your more emotional and vulnerable?


----------



## WildMustang

Mr. Nail said:


> lack of vulnerability has been labeled "toxic masculinity". This thread is in danger of plunging headfirst into political incorrectness.
> 
> When all ya'all decide what you want . . . .


That term, "toxic masculinity"is itself toxic.

Masculinity is in no way toxic.

Masculinity is a treasure, worthy of honor and praise.


----------



## Notself

WildMustang said:


> I think it is plausible that most women today may be asking for things they are not ready to receive with asking men to be comfortable in exposing their vulnerabilities and emotions.


Definitely a fair theory.

On the other hand, feminists are also very fond of calling out men who aren't comfortable with showing vulnerability, insinuating they have been poisoned by testosterone and "toxic masculinity"

After 15 pages, can we get some women to admit that maybe, just maybe, this is as much the fault of women as it is the poor troglodyte men?


----------



## Faithful Wife

WildMustang said:


> *YES!!! Men have had to pretend they don't have vulnerabilities and emotions!!!! That is the only way they could have survived!!!! They had to adapt to those expectations!!!!*
> 
> *Which again, is a sign of men's GREAT STRENGTH!*
> 
> I cannot imagine how hard it must be to have emotions and vulnerabilities and not be allowed to express them, to have to repress them and suppress them, only for them to leak out in other forms such as addictions, depression, mood disorders, heart attacks, obesity, violence, you name it.
> 
> *MY CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS THREAD ARE IN NO WAY MEANT AS AN ATTACK OR CRITICISM OF ANY KIND ON MEN!*. Nothing I have offered is meant as a criticism or attack. (Sometimes meaning is lost through typing/text)
> 
> Quite the opposite, I love men. I support men. I want men to be healthy and happy. I want men to feel safe with me and in the world in expressing their vulnerabilities and emotions.
> 
> I think we have done men a HUGE injustice to cruelly not allow them to be fully human.
> 
> If I were in their position, I seriously question and highly doubt whether I could hold up as they have, in relationships, in the workforce, everywhere, having to deny this aspect of my humanity.
> 
> Men have thrived in spite of it, again, a testament to their courage and their strength, but not without taking its heavy toll on them.
> 
> I don't know how they do it or have done it...but I do want them to know with me, it isn't necessary.


Here is the surprise takeaway from this thread for me....I now have found a great deal of empathy for the men who end up following MRA and red pill stuff. I get it. These men know for a fact that women have little or no empathy for them, because apparently that is true on a general level. So of course some of them grow to have little to no empathy for women.

I've read men from those groups talk about the lack of empathy from women to men, and because that was not my experience, I did not believe it was such a universal thing that men experience. I actually feel like a heel about that now. Obviously some women have great empathy for men and I do as well and I thought we were the majority of women. I thought most red pill guys had been screwed over by a woman and were hurt and bitter about it, and I usually assumed that woman was probably a terrible person. So I thought, why be so cold toward all women when only one crazy beeotch hurt you? 

But I see it now. If you have learned in your life that men have no empathy for you because men want you to toughen up, and women have no empathy for you because (fill in reason, I'm still not sure why this occurs), then I assume you would feel angry and agitated. If it were me, if I felt no one, man or woman, had any empathy for me, I would feel lost and alone. I would feel like what the hell, who is even worth my time then?

For those who know how much I pushed back against red pill stufff....please give me a moment to adjust my thinking on that. I'm stunned at how big of an issue this is and how it impacts men in a way I did not know existed.


----------



## Faithful Wife

chillymorn69 said:


> Are you saying when you wear a wig your more emotional and vulnerable?


I'd love to see Conan in a wig, I bet he'd rock it! :laugh:


----------



## Faithful Wife

Notself said:


> Definitely a fair theory.
> 
> On the other hand, feminists are also very fond of calling out men who aren't comfortable with showing vulnerability, insinuating they have been poisoned by testosterone and "toxic masculinity"
> 
> After 15 pages, can we get some women to admit that maybe, just maybe, this is as much the fault of women as it is the poor troglodyte men?


May I humbly say that yes, I see something I never saw before.


----------



## 269370

Faithful Wife said:


> Please stop addressing me at all since you refuse to believe the words I have written about myself and my relationship. I resent that you keep doing this and outright ignoring my truth when I have stated it to you over and over. You have no idea where I stand on anything because you keep projecting what you THINK has happened in my mind and my life, regardless of my many attempts to set it straight with you. I have stopped responding to you completely for months now, and I am going to go back to ignoring you after this post, regardless if you honor my wish for you to leave me alone or not. But I am speaking out this time because you have no right to litter my thread (or anywhere on TAM) with the nonsense that you have decided for yourself is my life details. I'm respectfully asking you to stop addressing me at all.


I am sorry if my question came across as 'harassment'. This is not my intent nor do I single you out. But for some reason I only get such a strong reaction from you. That should teach me not to poke in other people's ****... 
I try to ask them whenever I see that there might be a bias in thinking because I believe that it could generally be useful to look at 'truths' with different set of eyes. I didn't mean to trigger you nor do I presume that I am ever correct in what my question might be presuming (I always say I could be wrong). 

Rest assured, I won't be addressing you again since you feel this way. I had no idea.
I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## Buddy400

GettingIt_2 said:


> Usually lots of sex keeps him pretty happy, so as long as that's humming along, he seems okay with me being a little short on empathy when he's feeling out of sorts.


This is key.

Given the choice between lots of sex or lots of empathy, I think most men would choose the first.

Empathy from my wife doesn't matter very much to me; I really don't need it.

What I see is women's lack of empathy for men in particular leading to a lack of empathy for men in general.


----------



## WildMustang

Notself said:


> Definitely a fair theory.
> 
> On the other hand, feminists are also very fond of calling out men who aren't comfortable with showing vulnerability, insinuating they have been poisoned by testosterone and "toxic masculinity"
> 
> After 15 pages, can we get some women to admit that maybe, just maybe, this is as much the fault of women as it is the poor troglodyte men?


I am not a feminist and I never have been one.

I do not in any way believe masculinity is toxic.

Masculinity and testosterone are a glorious thing!


----------



## chillymorn69

It is just natural ! We are still animals and using our spidy scences when chosing a mate and lets face it someone who can push his emotions down to provide and protect for his family is more desirable.

The best looking male isn't very attractive if hes crying all the time.


----------



## Faithful Wife

chillymorn69 said:


> It is just natural ! We are still animals and using our spidy scences when chosing a mate and lets face it someone who can push his emotions down to provide and protect for his family is more desirable.
> 
> The best looking male isn't very attractive if hes crying all the time.


But to me he IS attractive when he cries at a funeral.

I get that being stoic is right for many men. But without enough soul to cry at a funeral, I'd be turned off by that man.

No one anywhere has ever said a crying all the time man is desirable so I don't know why it's even brought up.


----------



## chillymorn69

chillymorn69 said:


> It is just natural ! We are still animals and using our spidy scences when chosing a mate and lets face it someone who can push his emotions down to provide and protect for his family is more desirable.
> 
> The best looking male isn't very attractive if hes crying all the time.





Faithful Wife said:


> But to me he IS attractive when he cries at a funeral.
> 
> I get that being stoic is right for many men. But without enough soul to cry at a funeral, I'd be turned off by that man.
> 
> No one anywhere has ever said a crying all the time man is desirable so I don't know why it's even brought up.



So the only time he can cry is at a funeral?

What about at his daughters wedding?

Or a sons graduation?

Or after watching lassie die in a movie?

How about the loss of a pet?

Or koss oa job?

Or catching his wife cheating?

Or going through divorce?

Hitting hit thumb with a hammer?

His house burning down?



Obiviously i was exagerating with a crying all the time statement!


----------



## Buddy400

DustyDog said:


> "needy". What does it mean? We all need. "Needy", means needing more than an OK amount? Who decides this?
> 
> In a lecture by Brene Brown about 3-6 months ago on TEDx, she reported on a study about women, men, and vulnerability. I don't recall all the details, but as the report went on, some things came to light:
> 
> - Women complain about many things about men, and vice-versa. One of the top three from women about men is that they "want men to be willing to show their vulnerability".
> - However, men reported that when they did show their vulnerability to their women, the women turned away or shut down...they did not respond supportively.
> 
> So... the same group was re-surveyed, and this time the women were given sample of speech from men that showed vulnerability and asked to respond. In a vast majority of the cases, like over 85%, the women called the men "needy", or "childish" or "immature". When it was pointed out to the women that the speech they were given was actually chosen by a panel of women to represent a man expressing vulnerability, about 2/3 of the women reacted by saying, equivalently, omigod you're right, I reacted totally inappropriately to exactly what I wish my man did.
> 
> So, we find, said Brene, that women are presently asking for something they are not actually prepared to accept. Men showing vulnerability. They see it as neediness.


I believe this totally.

I don't think that there's anything *wrong* with women. We are who we are.

I'd just appreciate it if they'd stop telling men (and themselves) that they want things from men that they don't actually want. It's very confusing for everybody involved.


----------



## GettingIt_2

I think that the vast majority of women do have empathy for men. 

Even after this thread, I think that is true. 

I do think there there is a lot of misunderstanding between the sexes, based on myopic and sexist perceptions and assumptions, but I don't think that most women withhold empathy in a purposeful, abusive way. 

I do think that many women don't control their behavior very well when confronted with a situation from their husband that they are not used to seeing, or that scares them for some reason, or that irritates or otherwise temporarily shifts them from feeling "good and safe" to something less desirable. 

But I think most of us are capable of, and do show, empathy towards a man who has experienced an emotional blow or shock, or who otherwise is emotionally vulnerable. 

It's very hard, I think, for men who don't show their deep emotions often for whatever reason, to be ridiculed or shut down when they are most vulnerable. And perhaps it impacts them more deeply than other negative encounters because they were taking a risk, and thus the pain of the ridicule and rejection is that much deeper. 

Nonetheless, I still wouldn't extrapolate from what was revealed on this thread that the majority of women are not empathetic to men in a purposeful or spiteful way.


----------



## ConanHub

chillymorn69 said:


> Are you saying when you wear a wig your more emotional and vulnerable?


Yes.....and Mrs. Conan has no empathy for me when I wig out either. Pout 😡!


----------



## Buddy400

GettingIt_2 said:


> I still wouldn't extrapolate from what was revealed on this thread that the majority of women are not empathetic to men in a purposeful or spiteful way.


I don't think it's done purposefully or spitefully.

As I said before, this does not indicate that there is anything *wrong* with women (or to be more specific, there is nothing *wrong* with women who are not empathetic to men).


----------



## MEM2020

She has been a 10 out of 10 regarding my struggles with alcohol.





Faithful Wife said:


> That still sounds tragic to me in a way that I can't describe.
> 
> I mean, a drill instructor, sure, of course, that's their job to have no empathy for you and push you up the hill.
> 
> But your woman? Tragic.
> 
> - - - -
> 
> My most recent boyfriend had told me some crap his ex-w had done to him (and sometimes continues to do to him) and after seeing her in action a few times, I started feeling really protective of him. NOT THAT HE NEEDED my protection in anyway. It was just more of a "he's mine now beeotch, keep your stupid games to yourself and stop trying to jerk him around" (they have kids together so will always have involvement in each other's lives to some extent).
> 
> After yet another incident where she was just being horrid to him that he was telling me about, he stopped himself and said "oh no, I can see on your face, do you not respect me now? Do I seem weak? Maybe I shouldn't tell you these things, I don't want you to think less of me or be less attracted to me or feeling sorry for me". I said "No way you don't seem weak! And no I don't feel _sorry_ for you I feel *protective* of you. After all she's done to you I just wish you didn't have to deal with her anymore and I can't stand her! But you can of course tell me about whatever you want".
> 
> He hugged me and said "Awwwww....you feel protective of me? That's sweet." In that moment, I realized that this man had never had anyone have "protective" feelings about him ever since childhood. He did not recognize the empathy and sadness on my face originally, he thought I was making an "ew" face instead of a "oh my gosh that makes me so sad for you, I want to slap that beeotch!" face.
> 
> I said to him "of course you don't need my protection and I know you aren't asking for it, but I can't help getting my dander up when I hear the crap she does to you". I swear he was glowing after I said that, and he clearly just felt warm and fuzzy knowing I was on his side, that I cared enough to feel protective (even though I can do nothing to help), and that I had empathy. He was never weak about it, never talked too much about it, but I could see on his face when he had to deal with her that it was a huge emotional burden just getting through any interaction with her. There was such a horrific backstory too, which made her crap all the more hard to swallow. He was indeed vulnerable in telling me about some of those things, without being needy, whiny, or even hateful toward her. He was just authentically telling me about his emotional life.
> 
> Again - all of that made me MORE attracted to him, not less.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Faithful Wife said:


> But to me he IS attractive when he cries at a funeral.
> 
> I get that being stoic is right for many men. But without enough soul to cry at a funeral, I'd be turned off by that man.
> 
> No one anywhere has ever said a crying all the time man is desirable so I don't know why it's even brought up.


In other words, his emotions are attractive when you think it's ok.


----------



## WildMustang

chillymorn69 said:


> So the only time he can cry is at a funeral?
> 
> What about at his daughters wedding?
> 
> Or a sons graduation?
> 
> Or after watching lassie die in a movie?
> 
> How about the loss of a pet?
> 
> Or koss oa job?
> 
> Or catching his wife cheating?
> 
> Or going through divorce?
> 
> Hitting hit thumb with a hammer?
> 
> His house burning down?
> 
> 
> 
> Obiviously i was exagerating with a crying all the time statement!


This is only my opinion. I cannot speak for the opinions of other women.

It's okay to cry any time you feel like crying.

Period.


----------



## Buddy400

Since I've foolishly wasted most of my free time tonight on this thread instead of what I planned on doing (finishing a book), I started searching the internet for more info on this topic.

One thing I found illustrates what the real problem is

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/owning-pink/201408/women-please-stop-shaming-men

So , Lissa Rankin understands now that women are part of the problem.

The solution is for women to realize this and change their behavior. 
_
"The adult men in our lives need to know that it’s okay to get fired or make a bad investment or be unable to pay the mortgage. They need reassurance that we still love them when they’re collecting unemployment or when they can’t get the mayonnaise lid off the jar"_

VA-CHANG!

The problem is that (many) women can *think* that this is the "right" thing to do, but it isn't something that they're going to *feel* good about. Whatever it is that finds this behavior in men to be unattractive is the result of thousands of years of evolution and social adaptation. It isn't going to be undone overnight by rational thought.

So when the rational, thoughtful, educated women raises her son thinking...

_ "We need to let the men in our lives, especially our sons, know that it’s okay to let us know when they feel weak and ineffective. Our sons need to know it’s okay to cry when they’ve been bullied, that fighting back is what weak men do, not what strong men do. Our sons need to know we don’t expect them to “man up” at ten years old, and they need to have healthy masculinity modeled for them, which includes showing their soft underbellies. They need permission to explore their creativity without being judged as “soft” and they need to learn how to open their hearts and keep them open, even when our culture threatens the tenderness of that open heart._" 

... she isn't doing him any favors. She's teaching him how she thinks the world should work, not how it actually works. He's going to have a hard time navigating the real world.

Let's start working on understanding how things actually *are* instead of how we wish they would be in a more perfect world.


----------



## sokillme

Buddy400 said:


> Since I've foolishly wasted most of my free time tonight on this thread instead of what I planned on doing (finishing a book), I started searching the internet for more info on this topic.
> 
> One thing I found illustrates what the real problem is
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/owning-pink/201408/women-please-stop-shaming-men
> 
> So , Lissa Rankin understands now that women are part of the problem.
> 
> The solution is for women to realize this and change their behavior.
> _
> "The adult men in our lives need to know that it’s okay to get fired or make a bad investment or be unable to pay the mortgage. They need reassurance that we still love them when they’re collecting unemployment or when they can’t get the mayonnaise lid off the jar"_
> 
> VA-CHANG!
> 
> The problem is that (many) women can *think* that this is the "right" thing to do, but it isn't something that they're going to *feel* good about. Whatever it is that finds this behavior in men to be unattractive is the result of thousands of years of evolution and social adaptation. It isn't going to be undone overnight by rational thought.
> 
> So when the rational, thoughtful, educated women raises her son thinking...
> 
> _ "We need to let the men in our lives, especially our sons, know that it’s okay to let us know when they feel weak and ineffective. Our sons need to know it’s okay to cry when they’ve been bullied, that fighting back is what weak men do, not what strong men do. Our sons need to know we don’t expect them to “man up” at ten years old, and they need to have healthy masculinity modeled for them, which includes showing their soft underbellies. They need permission to explore their creativity without being judged as “soft” and they need to learn how to open their hearts and keep them open, even when our culture threatens the tenderness of that open heart._"
> 
> ... she isn't doing him any favors. She's teaching him how she thinks the world should work, not how it actually works. He's going to have a hard time navigating the real world.
> 
> Let's start working on understanding how things actually *are* instead of how we wish they would be in a more perfect world.


This is 100% right. Besides I think she is wrong to think that this kind of thinking is even deliberate, or social conditioning. I think it is instinctual because if you think about it any kind of weakness puts children at risk. This is the same reason men feel that way too. There is a genetic factor in this.


----------



## DTO

username77 said:


> I think my STBXW wanted a father more than a husband.


This is perfectly said, and really hits home.

I've known women to be empathetic and not empathetic towards me. And by empathetic I don't mean getting a token "aw gee, that's too bad" or even actually feeling bad for me. Empathetic to me means that my lady can help me through something without feeling inconvenienced or losing attraction.

Those who weren't empathetic tended to be more demanding / less generous in other aspects of the relationship as well. My XW, especially, wanted a father (someone to provide a stable and comfortable life and freedom to pursue her goals) rather than a spouse with whom she could team with to build a life together. It's not surprising that she didn't want to be bothered with my stuff, since my job was to sponsor her ambitions.

OTOH, the empathetic women were just more generous all around - from offering to help me when ill or hurt, to listening to my troubles and concerns, to being more considerate sexual partners, to picking up the dinner check.

Having seen it both ways, empathy is definitely a litmus test for women. I am a strong dude and can meet my needs and work through situations on my own - so I don't need support as a rule. Especially with that being the case, why would I opt for a woman who only wants to be around when I'm firing on all cylinders, and is turned off otherwise?


----------



## Wolfman1968

Faithful Wife said:


> Sounds similar to what @MEM2020 described, and yet he seems resigned to it (and I know he feels "happily married"). It still makes me sad. I don't see how you men (in this example) can hold it in forever and never authentically express those very real and normal emotions that you feel at those times and other times not quite so tragic but still cause deep emotions in life.
> 
> *I went to only 2 funerals with my ex-h, and if he had *not* cried I would have wondered what was wrong with him. When he *did* cry, I felt extreme empathy for him and also a very high level of emotional attraction. I felt I was seeing a side of him that most of us don't express until someone dies, and it is so raw and real that it is actually refreshing in a way. That always lead to feeling extreme sexual attraction for him later in the evening when everything had settled down a bit.*



Well, then, I guess by Brene Brown's research, and others' research, you are in the small minority of women. Good for you.

I will have to trust in the research done, though, and believe that the VAST majority of women are not like you, and are not empathetic towards men, particularly in their vulnerabilities. That certainly is consistent with the experiences of the men posted here.

And I don't blame men, therefore, for adapting their behavior to conform to the reactions/demands of the vast majority of women. Only a small minority of men are lucky enough to be married to/partnered with a Faithful Wife-type woman of empathy.


----------



## Wolfman1968

GettingIt_2 said:


> Nonetheless, I still wouldn't extrapolate from what was revealed on this thread that the majority of women are not empathetic to men in a purposeful or spiteful way.


I don't know if your wording correctly expresses the content of Brene Brown's (and others') research. 

To call it "purposeful" or "spiteful" implies an intentional, conscious (hence, purposeful) cruelty. That was specifically NOT what was the content of Brene Brown's research or TED talk. As Dusty Dog explained, the women in the study STATED that they wanted men to be more vulnerable, but when they were presented with vulnerable men, they ACTUALLY reacted negatively. There was a dissonance between their stated desires and their true reactions. Finally, the women expressed surprise when it this contradiction was revealed (i.e., that they were watching men specifically chosen to be speaking/acting "vulnerable", yet they rejected those men). This shows it was a subconscious, rather than conscious behavior. The women did not know that they were actually lying when they said they wanted men to be vulnerable; hence, it was not really "purposeful" or "spiteful".

The emotional bait and switch perpetrated by the women may indeed be cruel to the men, but it seems to be a subconscious rather than purposeful one. I would still, however, say that--conscious or subconscious--the end result is the same, which is a lack of empathy.


----------



## RandomDude

WildMustang said:


> I think we have done men a HUGE injustice to cruelly not allow them to be fully human.
> 
> If I were in their position, I seriously question and highly doubt whether I could hold up as they have, in relationships, in the workforce, everywhere, having to deny this aspect of my humanity.
> 
> Men have thrived in spite of it, again, a testament to their courage and their strength, but not without taking its heavy toll on them.
> 
> I don't know how they do it or have done it...but I do want them to know with me, it isn't necessary.


Ah! But we are human 

Just more... for we are also MEN! 

Not to worry, think I can make a man outta you too WildMustang:


----------



## Mr The Other

Buddy400 said:


> Since I've foolishly wasted most of my free time tonight on this thread instead of what I planned on doing (finishing a book), I started searching the internet for more info on this topic.
> 
> One thing I found illustrates what the real problem is
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/owning-pink/201408/women-please-stop-shaming-men
> 
> So , Lissa Rankin understands now that women are part of the problem.
> 
> The solution is for women to realize this and change their behavior.
> _
> "The adult men in our lives need to know that it’s okay to get fired or make a bad investment or be unable to pay the mortgage. They need reassurance that we still love them when they’re collecting unemployment or when they can’t get the mayonnaise lid off the jar"_
> 
> VA-CHANG!
> 
> The problem is that (many) women can *think* that this is the "right" thing to do, but it isn't something that they're going to *feel* good about. Whatever it is that finds this behavior in men to be unattractive is the result of thousands of years of evolution and social adaptation. It isn't going to be undone overnight by rational thought.
> 
> So when the rational, thoughtful, educated women raises her son thinking...
> 
> _ "We need to let the men in our lives, especially our sons, know that it’s okay to let us know when they feel weak and ineffective. Our sons need to know it’s okay to cry when they’ve been bullied, that fighting back is what weak men do, not what strong men do. Our sons need to know we don’t expect them to “man up” at ten years old, and they need to have healthy masculinity modeled for them, which includes showing their soft underbellies. They need permission to explore their creativity without being judged as “soft” and they need to learn how to open their hearts and keep them open, even when our culture threatens the tenderness of that open heart._"
> 
> ... she isn't doing him any favors. She's teaching him how she thinks the world should work, not how it actually works. He's going to have a hard time navigating the real world.
> 
> Let's start working on understanding how things actually *are* instead of how we wish they would be in a more perfect world.


As a man, I am less qualified to say. But I think this really asks more than many would be able to provide. The challenge may be, as the article alludes to, that women think it is easy when it is actually difficult. That means when a man loses his job or a sibling or parent, his reaction of weakness and sadness will seem pathetic and it is hard to love a pathetic man. It is a challenge for the woman to be aware of this reaction and for the man not to let himself go completely onto her, this is why men need male friends.

Again, only a personal impression, but I had not thought it was a particular probllem with family. Mothers clearly love their sons and sisters never think women treat their brothers well enough!


----------



## samyeagar

The difference between being in the friend zone and not.


----------



## sokillme

DTO said:


> This is perfectly said, and really hits home.
> 
> I've known women to be empathetic and not empathetic towards me. And by empathetic I don't mean getting a token "aw gee, that's too bad" or even actually feeling bad for me. Empathetic to me means that my lady can help me through something without feeling inconvenienced or losing attraction.
> 
> Those who weren't empathetic tended to be more demanding / less generous in other aspects of the relationship as well. My XW, especially, wanted a father (someone to provide a stable and comfortable life and freedom to pursue her goals) rather than a spouse with whom she could team with to build a life together. It's not surprising that she didn't want to be bothered with my stuff, since my job was to sponsor her ambitions.
> 
> OTOH, the empathetic women were just more generous all around - from offering to help me when ill or hurt, to listening to my troubles and concerns, to being more considerate sexual partners, to picking up the dinner check.
> 
> Having seen it both ways, empathy is definitely a litmus test for women. I am a strong dude and can meet my needs and work through situations on my own - so I don't need support as a rule. Especially with that being the case, why would I opt for a woman who only wants to be around when I'm firing on all cylinders, and is turned off otherwise?


Yeah sometimes these women are just jerks. Just like men who act the same way are. They are narcissists who lack of empathy for both sexes, but more so with their spouse because their spouse it supposed to DO stuff for THEM. The only thing the gender has to do with it is that in these cases we are talking about heterosexual women, so their spouse is a man.


----------



## Mr The Other

sokillme said:


> Yeah sometimes these women are just jerks. Just like men who act the same way are. They are narcissists who lack of empathy for both sexes, but more so with their spouse because their spouse it supposed to DO stuff for THEM. The only thing the gender has to do with it is that in these cases we are talking about heterosexual women, so their spouse is a man.


It does not take narcissism. I had a wife who got married to me, so her welfare went more to me, then got stressed and from then on expected me to make her life good while she devised new ways to feel sorry for herself. The divorce was perhaps even better for her than for me.


----------



## Faithful Wife

chillymorn69 said:


> So the only time he can cry is at a funeral?
> 
> What about at his daughters wedding?
> 
> Or a sons graduation?
> 
> Or after watching lassie die in a movie?
> 
> How about the loss of a pet?
> 
> Or koss oa job?
> 
> Or catching his wife cheating?
> 
> Or going through divorce?
> 
> Hitting hit thumb with a hammer?
> 
> His house burning down?
> 
> 
> 
> Obiviously i was exagerating with a crying all the time statement!


None of these would make me lose attraction or respect for a man. I'm not sure if you're actually reading me. I've been saying that all the men I've ever been with were vulnerable with me and I loved them all the more for it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

GettingIt_2 said:


> I think that the vast majority of women do have empathy for men.
> 
> Even after this thread, I think that is true.
> 
> I do think there there is a lot of misunderstanding between the sexes, based on myopic and sexist perceptions and assumptions, but I don't think that most women withhold empathy in a purposeful, abusive way.
> 
> I do think that many women don't control their behavior very well when confronted with a situation from their husband that they are not used to seeing, or that scares them for some reason, or that irritates or otherwise temporarily shifts them from feeling "good and safe" to something less desirable.
> 
> But I think most of us are capable of, and do show, empathy towards a man who has experienced an emotional blow or shock, or who otherwise is emotionally vulnerable.
> 
> It's very hard, I think, for men who don't show their deep emotions often for whatever reason, to be ridiculed or shut down when they are most vulnerable. And perhaps it impacts them more deeply than other negative encounters because they were taking a risk, and thus the pain of the ridicule and rejection is that much deeper.
> 
> Nonetheless, I still wouldn't extrapolate from what was revealed on this thread that the majority of women are not empathetic to men in a purposeful or spiteful way.


I don't think women are being spiteful in lacking empathy for men. I don't really know why it occurs but I do not think it is spite. And I don't know if it is a majority of women or just a large percentage. But I'm just now seeing that however much it occurs, it is enough that the average man would feel that most women lack empathy for men in general. I knew that many men felt this way, but I did not know why before. I do see it now, though.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, then, I guess by Brene Brown's research, and others' research, you are in the small minority of women. Good for you.
> 
> I will have to trust in the research done, though, and believe that the VAST majority of women are not like you, and are not empathetic towards men, particularly in their vulnerabilities. That certainly is consistent with the experiences of the men posted here.
> 
> And I don't blame men, therefore, for adapting their behavior to conform to the reactions/demands of the vast majority of women. Only a small minority of men are lucky enough to be married to/partnered with a Faithful Wife-type woman of empathy.


I get this now where I didn't before. Even though I've read men saying it here for years, I thought they were a self selected sample (a high number of men who have been cheated on, for example, and I could easily understand why that demographic felt so angered toward life). Women in my immediate realm show and verbalize empathy for their men and other men in their lives regularly, so I had no reason to think it is rare for women to have empathy for men. That was just normal and abundant in my experience. 

But now I see this other reality where generally speaking, the average man has a lot of evidence in front of him that the average woman doesn't empthathize with him or want him to show any vulnerability. Or if he does, he risks losing her attraction. 

It's just......wow.


----------



## Faithful Wife

MEM2020 said:


> She has been a 10 out of 10 regarding my struggles with alcohol.


Interesting. I wonder if her lacking empathy for this "weakness" was helpful?


----------



## RandomDude

Faithful Wife said:


> But now I see this other reality where generally speaking, the average man has a lot of evidence in front of him that the average woman doesn't empthathize with him or want him to show any vulnerability. Or if he does, he risks losing her attraction.
> 
> It's just......wow.


Of course, I would lose respect for him too. Boiling up in tears all the time shows lack of self control, weakness, and many would rather respect strength. 

Curious about what you want, tell me this, truthfully, would you rather:
1) A strong man, good sense of control, well respected and able to overcome adversity, shows little vulnerability, but when he does, it's with you. 
2) A weak man who shows vulnerability to everyone crybabying everywhere he can? Unable to overcome adversity without dependence on others, not respected for obvious reasons

I ask this as I suspect this is more about wanting something that is more precious, than an actual attraction to males being emo.


----------



## Faithful Wife

RandomDude said:


> Of course, I would lose respect for him too. Boiling up in tears all the time shows lack of self control, weakness, and many would rather respect strength.
> 
> Curious about what you want, tell me this, truthfully, would you rather:
> 1) A strong man, good sense of control, well respected and able to overcome adversity, shows little vulnerability, but when he does, it's with you.
> 2) A weak man who shows vulnerability to everyone crybabying everywhere he can? Unable to overcome adversity without dependence on others, not respected for obvious reasons
> 
> I ask this as I suspect this is more about wanting something that is more precious, than an actual attraction to males being emo.


I have no idea why #2 is even in the equation. As I just said above, no one ever said a "crybabying everywhere" man was desirable. I have no need to discuss such a man since nothing like that has been in my thoughts or posts on this thread.


----------



## WildMustang

@DustyDog, Your quote from post #121:

"If you look up the uses of the two terms in the psychology lexicons out there, you will find that 'strong' and 'vulnerable' are seen as opposites...vulnerable and strong at the same time, as described by women who ask for it, is almost impossible..."

A more obvious example of the frequency in which men in particular, show vulnerability *at the same time* that they show strength, even dominance, is whenever a man initiates sex with his woman. 

The man is pretty *vulnerable* in that scenario, no? And yet he *strongly *does it anyway, in spite of the rejection he may face. That is an example of strength, of dominance, while being vulnerable. That is sexy to me and to a lot of women. 

Another example is military, as I mentioned before. How much more *vulnerable* can a person be than to risk his/her very life for country? And yet they *strongly* do it anyway, every day. Again, a sign of strength and dominance while also being vulnerable. That is sexy to me and to a lot of women.

Edited to add: Police officers and firemen are other examples of men who show vulnerability and strength and dominance at the same time. Again, very sexy to me and to a lot of women.

I could persuasively make the argument that ANY job a man holds - he is going out into the thick of the it and competing to earn a paycheck to support himself and his family - again, an example of vulnerability and strength and dominance shown at the same time. Very sexy to me and to a lot of women.

These good men and others like them deserve so much support, love, admiration, respect, honor and empathy from their women and from all women. Men deserve a safe place to land, a warm home with a loving woman to have their back.


----------



## RandomDude

Faithful Wife said:


> I have no idea why #2 is even in the equation. As I just said above, no one ever said a "crybabying everywhere" man was desirable. I have no need to discuss such a man since nothing like that has been in my thoughts or posts on this thread.


Yes, I used an exaggerated example for #2, but are you saying you prefer #1?

If so, then encouraging vulnerability...


----------



## Notself

GettingIt_2 said:


> Nonetheless, I still wouldn't extrapolate from what was revealed on this thread that the majority of women are not empathetic to men in a purposeful or spiteful way.


That may be true, but the end result is the same whether women's lack of empathy is purposeful or not - men will be blamed for their supposed shortcomings.

Men get blamed for either being too vulnerable or not vulnerable enough, and it's always their own fault, either on an individual level (I've had friends who lost relationships when they got "too emotional") or a macro level (feminists who decry All Men for being unwilling to change). Men are hamstrung.

The dynamic isn't changing with the new generation, either. It's the same thing. Women say they want a "sensitive" man, then bemoan the lack of "real men." Traditional women, feminists, neither, it doesn't matter - that's the dynamic. And there is no shortage of articles online by women telling men how they need to be. Problem is, they all contradict each other. What's a man who wants a relationship to do? It's no wonder men are completely confused.

It is honestly refreshing to see some women start to get it and understand their own complicity in this forum. That almost never happens IRL.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Wolfman1968 said:


> I don't know if your wording correctly expresses the content of Brene Brown's (and others') research.
> 
> To call it "purposeful" or "spiteful" implies an intentional, conscious (hence, purposeful) cruelty. That was specifically NOT what was the content of Brene Brown's research or TED talk. As Dusty Dog explained, the women in the study STATED that they wanted men to be more vulnerable, but when they were presented with vulnerable men, they ACTUALLY reacted negatively. There was a dissonance between their stated desires and their true reactions. Finally, the women expressed surprise when it this contradiction was revealed (i.e., that they were watching men specifically chosen to be speaking/acting "vulnerable", yet they rejected those men). This shows it was a subconscious, rather than conscious behavior. The women did not know that they were actually lying when they said they wanted men to be vulnerable; hence, it was not really "purposeful" or "spiteful".
> 
> The emotional bait and switch perpetrated by the women may indeed be cruel to the men, but it seems to be a subconscious rather than purposeful one. I would still, however, say that--conscious or subconscious--the end result is the same, which is a lack of empathy.


I think what I'm struggling with in this thread a bit is what it means when someone says the woman "lacks empathy." I wouldn't say that I lack empathy, but I have admitted that I notice a dip in my sexual attraction when I'm called upon to be in the supportive, nurturing role for extended periods of time. I'm not talking about seeing a man cry at a funeral. I expect men to show those sorts of emotions in the moment. 

But even if I was in a nurturing role for an extended period of time, that doesn't mean that I'm going to refuse sex. The details do matter. If he fell off a ladder and broke his leg, but goes to the doctor and gets treatment and needs my support while he heals, that's one thing. If he's got health issues and is not following the doctor's advice and expects me to have empathy when he's feeling crappy as a result, that another issue. If he loses his job and needs to focus his time and energy on finding a new one, I'm happy to support him. If he loses his job and wants to spend a few hours a day playing video games while he "gets over the shock," forget it. 

So am I a woman who falls into the category of "doesn't have empathy for men?" 

Someone mentioned earlier that they don't find stoicism attractive. I do. But it's a trait I admire in both men and women, so I'm not sure where to parse my feelings along sexist lines, and when it's just a character trait that I admire.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Notself said:


> That may be true, but the end result is the same whether women's lack of empathy is purposeful or not - men will be blamed for their supposed shortcomings.


I don't blame men for their "shortcomings." I don't think showing emotions in the way that feels good and natural is a shortcoming. I think my underlying point is to examine what I find to be sexually attractive in a man. I of course can alter my behavior to show empathy even when I'm feeling a dip in sexual attraction. I don't go around letting my sexual response choose my behavior for me in my marriage. If I was out looking for a hookup, it would be different. I wouldn't go to a funeral and look for a grieving guy to **** me. But in my mind, that is apples and oranges. 



Notself said:


> Men get blamed for either being too vulnerable or not vulnerable enough, and it's always their own fault, either on an individual level (I've had friends who lost relationships when they got "too emotional") or a macro level (feminists who decry All Men for being unwilling to change). Men are hamstrung.


I wouldn't end a relationship because a man was "too emotional" or "too sensitive." I would end a relationship because I wan't sexually attracted to a man. 



Notself said:


> The dynamic isn't changing with the new generation, either. It's the same thing. Women say they want a "sensitive" man, then bemoan the lack of "real men." Traditional women, feminists, neither, it doesn't matter - that's the dynamic. And there is no shortage of articles online by women telling men how they need to be. Problem is, they all contradict each other. What's a man who wants a relationship to do? It's no wonder men are completely confused.


Women are confused, too, evidently, if they don't even know what they want until some sex researcher points it out to them. 



Notself said:


> It is honestly refreshing to see some women start to get it and understand their own complicity in this forum. That almost never happens IRL.


I don't feel complicit at all. But I don't mind being honest about how my sexuality works, either. If I was in the market for another long term relationship, I wold not go looking for a "sensitive" man, per se. Yeah, I want a man who is confident in who he is, emotionally. But there is also enough natural variation in the emotional make up of men that I think I could find one who is compatible with my sexual make up.


----------



## farsidejunky

Faithful Wife said:


> Here is the surprise takeaway from this thread for me....I now have found a great deal of empathy for the men who end up following MRA and red pill stuff. I get it. These men know for a fact that women have little or no empathy for them, because apparently that is true on a general level. So of course some of them grow to have little to no empathy for women.
> 
> I've read men from those groups talk about the lack of empathy from women to men, and because that was not my experience, I did not believe it was such a universal thing that men experience. I actually feel like a heel about that now. Obviously some women have great empathy for men and I do as well and I thought we were the majority of women. I thought most red pill guys had been screwed over by a woman and were hurt and bitter about it, and I usually assumed that woman was probably a terrible person. So I thought, why be so cold toward all women when only one crazy beeotch hurt you?
> 
> But I see it now. If you have learned in your life that men have no empathy for you because men want you to toughen up, and women have no empathy for you because (fill in reason, I'm still not sure why this occurs), then I assume you would feel angry and agitated. If it were me, if I felt no one, man or woman, had any empathy for me, I would feel lost and alone. I would feel like what the hell, who is even worth my time then?
> 
> For those who know how much I pushed back against red pill stufff....please give me a moment to adjust my thinking on that. I'm stunned at how big of an issue this is and how it impacts men in a way I did not know existed.


Thank you for your humility on this, @Faithful Wife.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Buddy400 said:


> VA-CHANG!


Dude, it's VA-*CLANG*. 

Think massive iron doors slamming shut. It's not a cash register. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## farsidejunky

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't think women are being spiteful in lacking empathy for men. I don't really know why it occurs but I do not think it is spite. And I don't know if it is a majority of women or just a large percentage. But I'm just now seeing that however much it occurs, it is enough that the average man would feel that most women lack empathy for men in general. I knew that many men felt this way, but I did not know why before. I do see it now, though.


At the root of it is probably fear.


----------



## farsidejunky

Notself said:


> That may be true, but the end result is the same whether women's lack of empathy is purposeful or not - men will be blamed for their supposed shortcomings.
> 
> Men get blamed for either being too vulnerable or not vulnerable enough, and it's always their own fault, either on an individual level (I've had friends who lost relationships when they got "too emotional") or a macro level (feminists who decry All Men for being unwilling to change). Men are hamstrung.
> 
> The dynamic isn't changing with the new generation, either. It's the same thing. Women say they want a "sensitive" man, then bemoan the lack of "real men." Traditional women, feminists, neither, it doesn't matter - that's the dynamic. And there is no shortage of articles online by women telling men how they need to be. Problem is, they all contradict each other. What's a man who wants a relationship to do? It's no wonder men are completely confused.
> 
> It is honestly refreshing to see some women start to get it and understand their own complicity in this forum. That almost never happens IRL.


Or you can forget what people are telling you how you should be, and actually be the man you want to be.


----------



## username77

DTO said:


> Those who weren't empathetic tended to be more demanding / less generous in other aspects of the relationship as well. My XW, especially, wanted a father (someone to provide a stable and comfortable life and freedom to pursue her goals) rather than a spouse with whom she could team with to build a life together. It's not surprising that she didn't want to be bothered with my stuff, since my job was to sponsor her ambitions.
> 
> Having seen it both ways, empathy is definitely a litmus test for women. I am a strong dude and can meet my needs and work through situations on my own - so I don't need support as a rule.


This is exactly like my wife, but to be honest we married young and I probably helped create this monster. I took on all responsibility from the get go and she stayed home and took no real responsibility on. Mortgages, paying bills, dealing with being sued by a crazy neighbor, paying taxes, children's behavior problems, work stress, losing my job and having to sell possessions to not be evicted, etc... all fell to me. She literally had to worry about folding the laundry and what to cook for dinner and that's it. And if I couldn't solve the issue immediately, or showed any worry about something going on, I got the silent treatment and treated like dirt. Only if I put the mask on that I'm superman and I got everything covered would she show any interest in me.

Frankly it's ****ing exhausting. In the divorce I'll keep my children and lose one dependent. When she's sick the world has to stop turning, if I'm sick I get nothing. I had 104 fever for nearly 3 days and she went away for the weekend with friends, I had to drive myself to the hospital where I had pneumonia in the upper lobes of both lungs. It's not that she did it to be mean, she literally just doesn't think that I need anything because I've always took care of everything myself.

I think women who can't empathize with their men and treat them this way are either very emotionally immature, or opportunists just looking to take advantage of someone.

If I do date again, my picker will be so much more tuned in to **** like this. Any woman looking only for a daddy, a protector, and a bank account will be shown the door right quick.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> I get this now where I didn't before. Even though I've read men saying it here for years, I thought they were a self selected sample (a high number of men who have been cheated on, for example, and I could easily understand why that demographic felt so angered toward life). Women in my immediate realm show and verbalize empathy for their men and other men in their lives regularly, so I had no reason to think it is rare for women to have empathy for men. That was just normal and abundant in my experience.
> 
> But now I see this other reality where generally speaking, the average man has a lot of evidence in front of him that the average woman doesn't empthathize with him or want him to show any vulnerability. Or if he does, he risks losing her attraction.
> 
> It's just......wow.


I really tried to do some objective reflection on this when it comes to the important and influential women in my life, and it really was kind of eye opening for me. My mother and sisters are very empathetic towards me as a son and brother, however, when it comes to relationshippy things it has always been man up. Like there is a complete disassociation between sam the son and brother, and sam the husband and father. And they are consistent when it comes to how they relate to my father, and brother in law. It's as if they are different women when attraction is on the table versus when it is not.

I see the same with my sister in law, mother in law, female friends, and looking back over my life, it was pretty easy to see that when attraction was at play, there was less friend like behaviour, that the easiest way to tell if I had been friend zoned was how easily and genuinely the woman listened and cared about what I was feeling.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I gotta say that this thread has been an eye opener for me. I so don't want to be "that" woman.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> Here is the surprise takeaway from this thread for me....I now have found a great deal of empathy for the men who end up following MRA and red pill stuff. I get it. These men know for a fact that women have little or no empathy for them, because apparently that is true on a general level. So of course some of them grow to have little to no empathy for women.
> 
> I've read men from those groups talk about the lack of empathy from women to men, and because that was not my experience, I did not believe it was such a universal thing that men experience. I actually feel like a heel about that now. Obviously some women have great empathy for men and I do as well and I thought we were the majority of women. I thought most red pill guys had been screwed over by a woman and were hurt and bitter about it, and I usually assumed that woman was probably a terrible person. So I thought, why be so cold toward all women when only one crazy beeotch hurt you?
> 
> But I see it now. If you have learned in your life that men have no empathy for you because men want you to toughen up, and women have no empathy for you because (fill in reason, I'm still not sure why this occurs), then I assume you would feel angry and agitated. If it were me, if I felt no one, man or woman, had any empathy for me, I would feel lost and alone. I would feel like what the hell, who is even worth my time then?
> 
> For those who know how much I pushed back against red pill stufff....please give me a moment to adjust my thinking on that. I'm stunned at how big of an issue this is and how it impacts men in a way I did not know existed.


I know for me I will never subscribe to the red pill stuff. Just to much anger behind all of it. I don’t have anger toward women because most say they want a sensitive man but if they get it hate it. What I have learned is it’s just better not to be open about things that make you vulnerable. My experience at best was they didn’t want to hear it and at its worst things I shared in confidence about fears and insecurities were ultimately used against me as emotional warfare I suppose.

It is nice to hear a few women here say they don’t mind their spouse needing some emotional support. I guess I just got to the point I thought all women just lost respect. Has opened my eyes as well.


----------



## samyeagar

A poster whom I'm haven't seen around here lately, jld, was pretty much the embodiment of this, almost to the point of hyperbole.


----------



## username77

Wolf1974 said:


> I know for me I will never subscribe to the red pill stuff. Just to much anger behind all of it..


I don't really find much anger in the Red Pill stuff, deep seated misogyny and entitlement yes, but not really anger. MGTOW are some angry M'Fers. Again both have some decent points and advice for men in today's day and age. But they go too far, paint with too broad of a brush, and overall it's just too negative to bring anything but bad stuff into your life and psyche.

Men do need to adjust and change to where society is, become a bit more self-centered and aware of how a significant portion of women do operate. The world has moved on, but the expectations of men have not by A LOT of women and society in general. You can see evidence of this by many women's refusal to date a man making less than them. the old adage "where have all the good men gone" usually means "I want a man who makes double what I do, and the same education levels at a minimum" as the main starting point. 

Women also demand a sensitive man, a feminist man, an equal partner, but then when the rubber hits the road this type of man seems to disgust them. It's why a lot of us simply get treated like **** if we show vulnerability or try to make our wife's equal partners and take on some more the grunt work (adult worries), or if there's an issue that we can't miraculously solve with our manly awesomeness, then we're failures in their eyes. These women are viewing their men as a Daddy, not a husband IMO.


----------



## naiveonedave

Faithful Wife said:


> But to me he IS attractive when he cries at a funeral.
> 
> I get that being stoic is right for many men. But without enough soul to cry at a funeral, I'd be turned off by that man.
> 
> No one anywhere has ever said a crying all the time man is desirable so I don't know why it's even brought up.


the look I got from my W when I cried at a funeral may have killed a mere mortal. it was a va-clang moment.


----------



## naiveonedave

Buddy400 said:


> I believe this totally.
> 
> I don't think that there's anything *wrong* with women. We are who we are.
> 
> I'd just appreciate it if they'd stop telling men (and themselves) that they want things from men that they don't actually want. It's very confusing for everybody involved.


I think this is a negative fall out of feminism. A lot of this muck comes from that. Trying to make the sexes the same, even though they are not. there are many more examples of how extreme takes on interaction of the sexes assuming the sexes are the same is just blatantly wrong....

(NOTE: this is not meant to derail feminism, just an observation).


----------



## Rowan

DTO said:


> Those who weren't empathetic tended to be more demanding / less generous in other aspects of the relationship as well. My XW, especially, wanted a father (someone to provide a stable and comfortable life and freedom to pursue her goals) rather than a spouse with whom she could team with to build a life together. It's not surprising that she didn't want to be bothered with my stuff, since my job was to sponsor her ambitions.
> 
> OTOH, the empathetic women were just more generous all around - from offering to help me when ill or hurt, to listening to my troubles and concerns, to being more considerate sexual partners, to picking up the dinner check.
> 
> Having seen it both ways, empathy is definitely a litmus test for women. I am a strong dude and can meet my needs and work through situations on my own - so I don't need support as a rule. Especially with that being the case, why would I opt for a woman who only wants to be around when I'm firing on all cylinders, and is turned off otherwise?


My ex-husband was much as you describe your ex-wife. He wanted a mother, someone to do all the things related to adult life that he couldn't be bothered to do himself. He wanted a chef, a maid, a laundress, someone to take care of him when he was sick, rather than a partner. He wanted to be taken care of. And I was responsible for taking care of him. Unsurprisingly, he also wasn't empathetic. But that wasn't limited to me, or to women. He simply wasn't an empathetic person, to anyone. 

I'm an excellent mother and caregiver, but a long-term situation of playing that role for my spouse, did impact my sexual attraction to him. He wasn't a boyfriend, a husband, a lover. He was someone that carried the same responsibilities - including responsibility for his emotional states - as a child would have. When we had a child of our own, it was a great deal like being the mother of two. I found that to be sexually unappealing. 

But is that an indication that I lack empathy for men? Or is it simply that I lacked sexual attraction to someone I was expected to mother? 

And, do men really find a partner who requires parenting, who is a taker, who refuses responsibility for themselves and their emotions, any more attractive as a long-term partner than women do? Perhaps the idea of sex still appeals, but does the sexual and emotional attraction _for her_ remain in the face of this selfish, child-like, behavior? Or do men tire of that, expect their woman to sack up and deal with her ****, and own her own life, responsibilities, and emotional stability? As a woman, why would I opt for a man who only wants me around when I'm firing on all cylinders and able to take care of him as his mommy would?

I think a great deal of the confusion here comes from what different people define as "needy". Some women think a man showing any emotion, ever, is needy. Because they require their men to provide emotional stability for them, and he can't do that if he's even temporarily unstable. But I think a fair number of mature, emotionally healthy, women really want what mature, emotionally healthy, men also seem to want: An emotionally stable partner who they don't have to be responsible for in a parental way the majority of the time. Because needing to parent your spouse/partner the majority of the time eventually feels yucky. It's not sexy. It's exhausting.


----------



## naiveonedave

GettingIt_2 said:


> I wouldn't end a relationship because a man was "too emotional" or "too sensitive." I would end a relationship because I wan't sexually attracted to a man.


As I understand the research in this thread, many/most women lose sexual attraction to a man if they show pretty much any emotion (a bit exaggerated on purpose). So you may not be this way, but if your SO is too emotional, most women would va-clang.


----------



## GettingIt_2

naiveonedave said:


> As I understand the research in this thread, many/most women lose sexual attraction to a man if they show pretty much any emotion (a bit exaggerated on purpose). So you may not be this way, but if your SO is too emotional, most women would va-clang.


Yes. And there is room for variation on what "too emotional" means. 

I would va-clang on a partner who was too emotional *for me.* But I'm not going to tell men in general how they *should* be when it comes to expressing emotion. They can express as much or as little as they want, and choose a partner who can support them emotionally in the way they want to be supported. 

But what men can't expect is that every woman is going to be sexually attracted to every variation in emotional make up and behavior in men. 

Just like women can't expect men to be sexually attracted to every body type variation. Part of our sexuality is hard wired, and not being able to accept that doesn't change the fact. 

What we can all do is do a better job at understanding how our sexual attraction works, and communicating those preferences honestly and respectfully. And we can all do a better job at accepting that raw sexual attraction is almost always conditional on traits in a sexual partner. 

I know what makes me sexually attractive to my husband. I know what would cause a dip his attraction to me. I don't feel bad or threatened by this knowledge. I feel informed.


----------



## samyeagar

Consider that self sufficiency is almost a universally attractive trait in a man as described by women. It's not much of a stretch to consider that self sufficiency goes beyond just financial, grooming, and keeping a clean house.


----------



## FrenchFry

NobodySpecial said:


> I gotta say that this thread has been an eye opener for me. I so don't want to be "that" woman.


Do you know any of those women IRL? I'm not a great judge of what is happening inside of relationships but I can think of a couple where this is the case maybe. 

I'm still not particularly moved to be more empathetic towards men in general, but I'm definitely okay with being a softer spot/problem solver/bucket for some tears for my husband.

I miss @jld, she actually taught me quite a bit how to be a good person in a relationship.


----------



## naiveonedave

GettingIt_2 said:


> Yes. And there is room for variation on what "too emotional" means.
> 
> I would va-clang on a partner who was too emotional *for me.* But I'm not going to tell men in general how they *should* be when it comes to expressing emotion. They can express as much or as little as they want, and choose a partner who can support them emotionally in the way they want to be supported.
> 
> But what men can't expect is that every woman is going to be sexually attracted to every variation in emotional make up and behavior in men.
> 
> Just like women can't expect men to be sexually attracted to every body type variation. Part of our sexuality is hard wired, and not being able to accept that doesn't change the fact.
> 
> What we can all do is do a better job at understanding how our sexual attraction works, and communicating those preferences honestly and respectfully. And we can all do a better job at accepting that raw sexual attraction is almost always conditional on traits in a sexual partner.
> 
> I know what makes me sexually attractive to my husband. I know what would cause a dip his attraction to me. I don't feel bad or threatened by this knowledge. I feel informed.


basically I agree with you, however, the general advice given to men is to be more emotional, and that is, on average, actually horrible advice given the research. That is my point. It is not your advice, it is the advice from society.


----------



## NobodySpecial

naiveonedave said:


> the look I got from my W when I cried at a funeral may have killed a mere mortal. it was a va-clang moment.


My husband and I were watching a video on the internet of a dog who had been badly abused. The noise that poor creature was making was beyond pitiful. Who wouldn't cry? He is strong when I am falling, I am strong when he is. Is that not what love is? My v is always open for him.


----------



## samyeagar

GettingIt_2 said:


> Yes. And there is room for variation on what "too emotional" means.
> 
> I would va-clang on a partner who was too emotional *for me.* But I'm not going to tell men in general how they *should* be when it comes to expressing emotion. They can express as much or as little as they want, and choose a partner who can support them emotionally in the way they want to be supported.
> 
> But what men can't expect is that every woman is going to be sexually attracted to every variation in emotional make up and behavior in men.
> 
> Just like women can't expect men to be sexually attracted to every body type variation. Part of our sexuality is hard wired, and not being able to accept that doesn't change the fact.
> 
> What we can all do is do a better job at understanding how our sexual attraction works, and communicating those preferences honestly and respectfully. And we can all do a better job at accepting that raw sexual attraction is almost always conditional on traits in a sexual partner.
> 
> I know what makes me sexually attractive to my husband. I know what would cause a dip his attraction to me. I don't feel bad or threatened by this knowledge. I feel informed.


Of course it is always important to try and find the right partner for ones self, and on the individual level, those things can vary widely. There are some things though that are more universal than others. Not many would suggest being a fat slob living in their parents basement. The near universal advice and suggestion would be that they need to clean up their act, get a job, get in shape, grow up. Not many would stand by the whole "there's someone for everyone" mantra in a situation like that.

It's obviously not widely talked about, but many, dare I say most men's life experience has taught them that emotional vulnerability of any kind is almost a universal liability when it comes to attraction and romantic relationship. How big of a liability depends on the other person of course.


----------



## username77

naiveonedave said:


> basically I agree with you, however, the general advice given to men is to be more emotional, and that is, on average, actually horrible advice given the research. That is my point. It is not your advice, it is the advice from society.


Women want men to be emotionally healthy and in tune with their feelings so long as those emotions are involved in building the women up, and making them feel emotionally secure and loved in the relationship. They absolutely DO NOT want any emotions displayed by their men pertaining to fear, self-doubt, anger, worry, depression, or anxiety, even if they're 100% justified at the time. Showing those emotions at any time becomes a virtual chastity belt.

Emotions concerning love, affection, and caring directed towards the woman or her children = good.

Emotions concerning anything other than that = bad.

Women also want a man who is all around emotionally healthy which I do get. A man who flies off the handle yelling, or dealing with persistent anxiety and depression because he lacks the coping skills to deal with life will close any vagina.


----------



## Notself

farsidejunky said:


> Or you can forget what people are telling you how you should be, and actually be the man you want to be.


And then wonder why when you aren't "relationship material."


----------



## Rowan

Notself said:


> And then wonder why when you aren't "relationship material."


If you're being the person you want to be, and are happy with and in yourself, do you really care whether or not you're considered "relationship material"?


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

I Have only read the first 4-5 pages so I don't know if this has been brought up, but here is my initial thoughts. 

When men don't show emotions, often I've seen women blame men for the macho man patriarchy created in society. But after reading the first 4-5 pages, it is clear women are just as much at fault for a mans need to always be strong, show no emotion, pretend everything is ok. To go swinging his junk around, proving he is always top dog, yada yada yada. 

So this same environment where women feel oppressed because of the macho man patriarchy they blame men for creating, turns out most women don't want a weak man and have clearly had their hand in creating it. They are turned on by the macho man as a matter of fact and any sort of emotional vulnerability is seen as a turn off and the VA-clang gang can't stand it. 

Then women want to cry foul and play the victim when a system they have had their hands in creating doesn't work out for them in one way or another. Absolve themselves of their own responsibility in the way men behave and blame shift the hardships they have equally played a part in creating on to men as a whole.


----------



## Notself

Rowan said:


> If you're being the person you want to be, and are happy with and in yourself, do you really care whether or not you're considered "relationship material"?


Sure, if you want to be in a relationship. I've known many men who were happy with themselves and their lives, except for the relationship element. They liked themselves, but women didn't. So it goes.

Remember, there's really not "someone for everyone" out there. Everyone has to compromise in some way.


----------



## WildMustang

naiveonedave said:


> basically I agree with you, however, the general advice given to men is to be more emotional, and that is, on average, actually horrible advice given the research. That is my point. It is not your advice, it is the advice from society.


Just to be clear, I for one, am *NOT *asking men to be more emotional.

I am simply saying it is okay to show emotion and vulnerability if and when you feel it, as having emotion and vulnerability is part of being human.

And that I don't close up shop when I see it.


----------



## naiveonedave

samyeagar said:


> A poster whom I'm haven't seen around here lately, jld, was pretty much the embodiment of this, almost to the point of hyperbole.


So does @jld va-clang if her hubby cries? I am kind of curious...


----------



## uhtred

I think there is a difference between being emotional and being weak. When your beloved pet needs to be put down, I think it is OK to cry as you take him to the vet. Its not OK to be unable to take him to the vet and insist that your partner do it for you.


----------



## samyeagar

WildMustang said:


> Just to be clear, I for one, am *NOT *asking men to be more emotional.
> 
> *I am simply saying it is okay to show emotion and vulnerability if and when you feel it, as having emotion and vulnerability is part of being human.
> *
> And that I don't close up shop when I see it.


Of course it's okay, but just realize that doing so will quite likely come at a cost in most situations. Enter risk assessment and loss mitigation.


----------



## samyeagar

naiveonedave said:


> So does @jld va-clang if her hubby cries? I am kind of curious...


She would be absolutely terrified to her core and want to get away from him as fast as possible.


----------



## GettingIt_2

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I Have only read the first 4-5 pages so I don't know if this has been brought up, but here is my initial thoughts.
> 
> When men don't show emotions, often I've seen women blame men for the macho man patriarchy created in society. But after reading the first 4-5 pages, it is clear women are just as much at fault for a mans need to always be strong, show no emotion, pretend everything is ok. To go swinging his junk around, proving he is always top dog, yada yada yada.
> 
> So this same environment where women feel oppressed because of the macho man patriarchy they blame men for creating, turns out most women don't want a weak man and have clearly had their hand in creating it. They are turned on by the macho man as a matter of fact and any sort of emotional vulnerability is seen as a turn off and the VA-clang gang can't stand it.
> 
> Then women want to cry foul and play the victim when a system they have had their hands in creating doesn't work out for them in one way or another. Absolve themselves of their own responsibility in the way men behave and blame shift the hardships they have equally played a part in creating on to men as a whole.


I'm not sure if you'd consider me part of the "va-clang gang" or not, but I do agree that there is a disconnect between how I want to be treated and viewed as a woman in society and how I want to be viewed and treated in my relationship with my husband. 

I'd like equitable *treatment* from the police, my professors, employers, the guy at the service garage, etc. What's going on in their heads about my T&A, I don't really care about, nor do I feel threatened by it. I expect men to have a sexual response to women, but to temper their *treatment* of women appropriately. 

I want my husband to treat me like *HIS* wife. How that looks behind the doors of our home is between the two of us.


----------



## Rowan

uhtred said:


> I think there is a difference between being emotional and being weak. When your beloved pet needs to be put down, I think it is OK to cry as you take him to the vet. Its not OK to be unable to take him to the vet and insist that your partner do it for you.


This made me giggle just a bit. I actually did have to drive my husband's beloved Labrador to the vet for that final time. He just couldn't. He stayed home, teary-eyed and drinking, then left before I got back for his weekly poker night, leaving me to also bury the dog. He was torn up about the dog's death for weeks afterward, and pissed with me for burying him when he wasn't around, as if it were an intentional slight done just to inflict pain on the poor man.....

I'm really sorry, but yes, years of that sort of thing: va-clang!


----------



## Buddy400

GettingIt_2 said:


> Dude, it's VA-*CLANG*.
> 
> Think massive iron doors slamming shut. It's not a cash register. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


I KNEW I was going to get that wrong and was just too lazy to go look it up.

Woe is me :crying:


----------



## username77

I'll get killed for this but I'm gonna say it anyway. Women have had an equal share in creating the patriarchy, if not nearly 100% responsible for it. Men only do what women insist on them doing and always have. The patriarchy only existed because women found it to be a system that was at the time, the most beneficial for their safety and the rearing of their children into adulthood.

Once the industrial revolution happened, and women could now more easily and safely join society as equal members, the call for the patriarchy to end was shouted by women, and for the most part headed by men.

If men created the patriarchy and loved it, and were the ones who solely benefited from it, AND were capable of enforcing it without the women going along, it would still be the way of things.


----------



## samyeagar

samyeagar said:


> She would be absolutely terrified to her core and want to get away from him as fast as possible.


To add to this, when I asked my wife about this topic, she put it like this...even a small lack of emotional self control from a man, even situationally, can be disconcerting to down right terrifying, and women generally aren't sexually attracted to scary men.


----------



## Buddy400

Rowan said:


> And, do men really find a partner who requires parenting, who is a taker, who refuses responsibility for themselves and their emotions, any more attractive as a long-term partner than women do? Perhaps the idea of sex still appeals, but does the sexual and emotional attraction _for her_ remain in the face of this selfish, child-like, behavior? Or do men tire of that, expect their woman to sack up and deal with her ****, and own her own life, responsibilities, and emotional stability? As a woman, why would I opt for a man who only wants me around when I'm firing on all cylinders and able to take care of him as his mommy would?


If a woman has problems she doesn't feel capable of solving, that doesn't affect her husband's desire to have sex with her.

It's attractive in a way; we want to help and to solve problems. If a woman is weak, it can trigger our desire to be protective.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that men aren't really attracted to women who totally have their **** together and just *think* they would be (the reverse of the situation with women). 

I don't think women not having empathy for men is the problem so much as women not being able to have empathy for a man and be sexually attracted to him at the same time.

Men want, above all else, for women to find them sexually attractive. So, given a choice between one or the other, we'll do without the empathy.


----------



## wild jade

The truths expressed here about women and men both are so far outside of my experience, it's difficult to know how to respond.

I can't even imagine a relationship where it wasn't possible/acceptable to express vulnerability and emotions. Why would anyone at all put up with that?


----------



## wild jade

Buddy400 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to find that men aren't really attracted to women who totally have their **** together and just *think* they would be (the reverse of the situation with women).


You may be onto something here. All through reading this thread, I couldn't help but think the experiences we find ourselves in are self-selected.

A guy who chases women who make him feel like a knight in shining armor is of course going to end up with a woman who needs a constant knight in shining armor

Just like a woman who wants a guy to protect her and make her feel safe is going to end up with someone who has difficulty expressing vulnerability.


----------



## Mr The Other

wild jade said:


> The truths expressed here about women and men both are so far outside of my experience, it's difficult to know how to respond.
> 
> I can't even imagine a relationship where it wasn't possible/acceptable to express vulnerability and emotions. Why would anyone at all put up with that?


I cannot speak for others, but a display of emotional weakness will put a strain on a romantic partners affections. That is why it is best to understand that and limit it. That is not the same as saying that she does not care.

I can think in the event of a family tragedy, I cancelled a trip with my girlfriend. Clearly she was upset for several reasons:
- I cancelled on her
- I put her in second place at that moment
- At this time when she was upset by the above, I was myself upset. I did not cry in her presence, but I was shaken
All three of the above meant she was let down and the third would have made me less attractive to her. It also meant that she was with a less attractive boyfriend, which reflected badly on her.

She could have treated me as she would one of her friends in that situation, but that would mean I was not a suitable romantic partner. It was therefore charity to believe I was just being selfish. Surely, I could not really be emotionally shaken? That would mean I had let her down.

If you understand how a man being upset can affect his partner, it is easy to understand. To give another example, a woman is upset that her child dies, she needs her husband to support her and take over, but instead he is upset. It is easy to see why this horrible situation often leads to divorce.

Ironically, the men seeing all this as the woman being horrible are just lacking in empathy


----------



## Mr The Other

wild jade said:


> You may be onto something here. All through reading this thread, I couldn't help but think the experiences we find ourselves in are self-selected.
> 
> A guy who chases women who make him feel like a knight in shining armor is of course going to end up with a woman who needs a constant knight in shining armor
> 
> Just like a woman who wants a guy to protect her and make her feel safe is going to end up with someone who has difficulty expressing vulnerability.


Speaking for myself, I would love to find a woman like that.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Women do not lack empathy for men in general or for their partners in particular.
But they do find weakness and instability very unsettling and unattractive. Va-clang is a very real and very unconscious reaction.
My wife is very empathetic toward people she is not having a sexual relationship with. She was, for the first 23 years of our marriage, entirely unempathetic toward me. Recently, she has shown much more empathy toward me.
Do I imagine that her new-found empathy toward me is unrelated to our no longer having sex? No. There is no longer a barrier to her feeling empathy toward me, because we are no longer in a sexual relationship.


----------



## ReturntoZero

farsidejunky said:


> At the root of it is probably fear.


The root cause of 80% plus of human behavior.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Holdingontoit said:


> Women do not lack empathy for men in general or for their partners in particular.
> But they do find weakness and instability very unsettling and unattractive. Va-clang is a very real and very unconscious reaction.
> My wife is very empathetic toward people she is not having a sexual relationship with. She was, for the first 23 years of our marriage, entirely unempathetic toward me. Recently, she has shown much more empathy toward me.
> Do I imagine that her new-found empathy toward me is unrelated to our no longer having sex? No. There is no longer a barrier to her feeling empathy toward me, because we are no longer in a sexual relationship.


I'm sorry that I actually laughed out loud reading this.

So, they're only that way when it really counts.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Holdingontoit said:


> Women do not lack empathy for men in general or for their partners in particular.
> But they do find weakness and instability very unsettling and unattractive. Va-clang is a very real and very unconscious reaction.
> My wife is very empathetic toward people she is not having a sexual relationship with. She was, for the first 23 years of our marriage, entirely unempathetic toward me. Recently, she has shown much more empathy toward me.
> Do I imagine that her new-found empathy toward me is unrelated to our no longer having sex? No. There is no longer a barrier to her feeling empathy toward me, because we are no longer in a sexual relationship.


Interesting. I was far LESS empathetic towards my husband in the years when we weren't having much sex. 

I've found that I have a much easier time organically feeling empathy towards him now that we have lots of sex. 

When sex breaks in our marriage, so does everything else. So that is where we put our focus: keeping our attraction for one another high. And that requires honesty about what we find sexually attractive in one another, and the ability to accept that it's extremely "sexist" roles and thinking that maximizes our sexual response to one another.


----------



## tech-novelist

Faithful Wife said:


> Here is the surprise takeaway from this thread for me....I now have found a great deal of empathy for the men who end up following MRA and red pill stuff. I get it. These men know for a fact that women have little or no empathy for them, because apparently that is true on a general level. So of course some of them grow to have little to no empathy for women.
> 
> I've read men from those groups talk about the lack of empathy from women to men, and because that was not my experience, I did not believe it was such a universal thing that men experience. I actually feel like a heel about that now. Obviously some women have great empathy for men and I do as well and I thought we were the majority of women. I thought most red pill guys had been screwed over by a woman and were hurt and bitter about it, and I usually assumed that woman was probably a terrible person. So I thought, why be so cold toward all women when only one crazy beeotch hurt you?
> 
> But I see it now. If you have learned in your life that men have no empathy for you because men want you to toughen up, and women have no empathy for you because (fill in reason, I'm still not sure why this occurs), then I assume you would feel angry and agitated. If it were me, if I felt no one, man or woman, had any empathy for me, I would feel lost and alone. I would feel like what the hell, who is even worth my time then?
> 
> For those who know how much I pushed back against red pill stufff....please give me a moment to adjust my thinking on that. I'm stunned at how big of an issue this is and how it impacts men in a way I did not know existed.


I would like to thank you for your openness on this issue.

You are a credit to the human race.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> Men want, above all else, for women to find them sexually attractive. So, given a choice between one or the other, we'll do without the empathy.


This makes sense. It is still sad, but it makes sense.

I guess I am like a man in that way....feeling empathy toward my man or seeing him be vulnerable does not make me lose desire for him and may in fact increase my desire for him.


----------



## Faithful Wife

wild jade said:


> The truths expressed here about women and men both are so far outside of my experience, it's difficult to know how to respond.
> 
> I can't even imagine a relationship where it wasn't possible/acceptable to express vulnerability and emotions. Why would anyone at all put up with that?


I've been struggling with the responses here, too. It is just all so foreign to me. And yes, why would anyone put up with that....but at the same time, I'm just as shocked about the loss of attraction women apparently feel. It sounds like even if men just threw their reservations to the wind and acted emotionally or vulnerable however they actually felt like doing instead of stifling it, every vag near them would immediately va-clang anyway. To me, that is the saddest part and the hardest to understand.

Men have been saying this for a long time at TAM and I just had no idea how true it was.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> To add to this, when I asked my wife about this topic, she put it like this...even a small lack of emotional self control from a man, even situationally, can be disconcerting to down right terrifying, and women generally aren't sexually attracted to scary men.


I wonder if there is something to do with this dynamic in her refusal to verbally celebrate you. Like maybe she sees it as a sign of weakness for you to want to hear compliments?


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

GettingIt_2 said:


> Holdingontoit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Women do not lack empathy for men in general or for their partners in particular.
> But they do find weakness and instability very unsettling and unattractive. Va-clang is a very real and very unconscious reaction.
> My wife is very empathetic toward people she is not having a sexual relationship with. She was, for the first 23 years of our marriage, entirely unempathetic toward me. Recently, she has shown much more empathy toward me.
> Do I imagine that her new-found empathy toward me is unrelated to our no longer having sex? No. There is no longer a barrier to her feeling empathy toward me, because we are no longer in a sexual relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. I was far LESS empathetic towards my husband in the years when we weren't having much sex.
> 
> I've found that I have a much easier time organically feeling empathy towards him now that we have lots of sex.
> 
> When sex breaks in our marriage, so does everything else. So that is where we put our focus: keeping our attraction for one another high. And that requires honesty about what we find sexually attractive in one another, and the ability to accept that it's extremely "sexist" roles and thinking that maximizes our sexual response to one another.
Click to expand...

Your empathy is conditional and requires him to be the patriarchal type. Which helps prove my point made above. Women don't want to admit that they are indeed just as responsible as men are for a patriarchal society. Instead they want to cast all the blame on men. We are taught not to show emotions, not only because it makes us look weak to other men, but also makes us unattractive to women. 

So in 2018 this is what men are hearing from women, "nice guys finish last. We don't want a pushover. Being emotional or having any sense of self doubt is a major turn off and we aren't attracted to men who have any sort of emotional maturity. We want an animal who takes what he wants and claims what is his." followed by "men are dogs and pigs and have no emotional maturity or ability to empathize with women on an emotional level. Men only want one thing and don't care about my feelings. This whole machismo patriarchal society is created by men trying to prove they have a bigger Johnson than the next guy. The term beta male needs to be taken out of the English language because it is shameful that men have to put each other down for not being of the same mind as the classic alpha male character." 

Then women get defensive when men say "you can't ever make a woman happy"


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> wild jade said:
> 
> 
> 
> The truths expressed here about women and men both are so far outside of my experience, it's difficult to know how to respond.
> 
> I can't even imagine a relationship where it wasn't possible/acceptable to express vulnerability and emotions. Why would anyone at all put up with that?
> 
> 
> 
> I've been struggling with the responses here, too. It is just all so foreign to me. And yes, why would anyone put up with that....but at the same time, I'm just as shocked about the loss of attraction women apparently feel. It sounds like even if men just threw their reservations to the wind and acted emotionally or vulnerable however they actually felt like doing instead of stifling it, every vag near them would immediately va-clang anyway. To me, that is the saddest part and the hardest to understand.
> 
> Men have been saying this for a long time at TAM and I just had no idea how true it was.
Click to expand...

Why would anyone put up with that? Well you answered your own question just below. The vaginas dry right up. What position do men have in your eyes now that you are waking up? What is our best course of action? 

As for your last part, obviously you are one of the few women who can actually see what is going on. Perhaps there are some women who can have empathy for the position we are placed it. Except you only found that empathy through discovering what women think of men. No matter what men told you, you couldn't believe it or take our word for it. It took other women to convince you that men aren't full of crap and women haters. 

We just have no idea what the hell you want from us. Women seem to not have come to terms with what they want from us either. Thus we are given conflicting information constantly.


----------



## farsidejunky

Notself said:


> And then wonder why when you aren't "relationship material."


There ain't no free lunch.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> I wonder if there is something to do with this dynamic in her refusal to verbally celebrate you. Like maybe she sees it as a sign of weakness for you to want to hear compliments?


Absolutely it does. She's said as much. Called it high maintenance, and has told me point blank during the discussions we have had about it that that neediness as she put it made her feel less attracted to me. It is also a complete lack of empathy, at least as far as this issue is concerned because she has said that I am one of the beautiful people, and as as such, I shouldn't need that kind of validation.


----------



## BigDigg

This thread really resonated with me - so much so that I finally created an account after being a long time lurker to share something I've experienced in this area  

Quick background - right after Xmas a childhood friend of mine passed away. He had been battling cancer however the downhill came suddenly following a brief lung infection. Though he and I weren't particularly close (especially in the last decade) this was tragic and sad enough on it's own, however this also forced me to dredge up some negative feelings/baggage that I had related to a shared group of childhood friends whom I had grown distant to after High School. Of that group one friendship in particular (basically a brother to me growing up) bothered me for years with a fair amount of internal guilt, regret, feelings of rejection, etc... I had recently (before and unrelated to my friends death) decided to sever ties while forgiving my friend and myself and moving on. It was a big deal to me (last vestiges of childhood kind of thing) that I never really opened up to anyone with. My friends death and funeral made it unavoidable to deal with.

All in all I think I handled things well - especially in front of wife and family. No crying, sobbing or real weakness shown. There certainly were a few tough days leading up the funeral where I was a bit checked out (quiet or even stoic perhaps) but otherwise didn't share or express much. At the wake and funeral I interacted casually with my friends but kept some distance. After lunch most had moved to the bar at the reception place and drinks/shots started to flow. My wife was pushing me to engage but I resisted and told her I was ready to leave. The mental snapshot of my friends raising toasts was a perfect closure moment for me and I felt happiness and peace...

On the drive home my wife really pushed me to open up and explain so I shared with her everything going on in my head. It was tough to do and I didn't hold back on regrets and insecurities. She was suitably supportive and engaged in the conversation. When we got to my parents house to pick the kids up I told her I felt sad (but good about the closure) and ready to move forward. Through the rest of the day I noticed a bit of coldness however. Her support was there but felt a bit reluctant and forced where she's naturally a very warm person. In the evening once the kids were asleep I told her I wanted to spend time together. In bed watching TV she started playing iPhone games and when I pressed for some intimacy (not sexual at all) she rebuffed and told me something to the effect (and very matter of fact) "your neediness isn't the most attractive thing". 

I was floored and it was so out of character for her. In general we have a great marriage (14+yrs) with mutual love and respect. Her reaction here might paint her as coldblooded but trust me she's wonderful and we really click. But because I've been reading TAM the last few months I knew right away what had happened. In our relationship I'm generally (I think) a very good mix of Alpha/Beta and as a male I have an implicit role to play in the family (and I think I play it well generally). And outside of a few isolated events like this one I've stayed in that lane for the 20yrs we've been together. The circumstances of this and the vulnerability displayed were unusual. Her reaction was a reflection of the Lizard Brain part of her that was neither emotionally nor physically attracted to this. I took what she said in stride and didn't pout or dwell on it. Immediately after she said it I remember thinking something cliche like "knock it off...time to be a man again". 

I've made a point to recenter and reassert and things are great between us. I'm not angry with her at all - quite the opposite - I'm glad that she was honest and wish she was similarly completely honest in her thinking about everything. After reading so many posts on TAM it's so easy to see that there are certain (near) universal rules impacting attraction. For all the great progress made in equality and female empowerment there are deep rooted cultural (and probably biological) elements that demand men behave and act a certain way and fill certain roles. Of course there are different and equally constraining rules for women as well and though they may be imposing and unfair arguing against them is pointless. They are what they are and though exact adherence to them may vary person to person (YMMV) accepting them goes a long way to understanding how we can provide for each others needs. My wife wants a strong man...i'm committed to being one. 

I think GTDad nailed it in the opening posts. I don't expect my wife to offer me empathy and I'll find another (positive) outlet for it when I need it. That's not going to be her role or in her wheelhouse with her husband (though she's an empathetic friend and sister to others). I have some great friends and family and that's where I'll get the support I need when I need it.

Thanks for letting me share...


----------



## GettingIt_2

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Your empathy is conditional and requires him to be the patriarchal type. Which helps prove my point made above. Women don't want to admit that they are indeed just as responsible as men are for a patriarchal society. Instead they want to cast all the blame on men. We are taught not to show emotions, not only because it makes us look weak to other men, but also makes us unattractive to women.


Well, maybe I'm not your typical woman. I don't blame men as a group for anything. I rather prefer benevolent patriarchy, to be honest. 

Look, I freely admit it: I'm completely turned on by power differential in domestic life and in the bedroom. Reading blogs that advocate for traditional and biblical gender roles in marriage is my favorite form of porn. 

That doesn't mean I want that extreme power differential when I step outside my door. 

To me, it's about being honest with what I want from a sexual partner . . . with my sexual partner. That way, we can have a slammin' good time at home, and I don't have to put up with being groped on the bus. 





TheDudeLebowski said:


> So in 2018 this is what men are hearing from women, "nice guys finish last. We don't want a pushover. Being emotional or having any sense of self doubt is a major turn off and we aren't attracted to men who have any sort of emotional maturity. We want an animal who takes what he wants and claims what is his." followed by "men are dogs and pigs and have no emotional maturity or ability to empathize with women on an emotional level. Men only want one thing and don't care about my feelings. This whole machismo patriarchal society is created by men trying to prove they have a bigger Johnson than the next guy. The term beta male needs to be taken out of the English language because it is shameful that men have to put each other down for not being of the same mind as the classic alpha male character."
> 
> Then women get defensive when men say "you can't ever make a woman happy"


I don't think that's what women, as a group, are saying. But I do believe that is what it sounds like to many men. 

But men as a group shouldn't be worried about what they think women as a group think. Find a woman and get to know her. Assess her for her depth of self-reflection. Develop some mutual trust so you can begin to speak frankly and honestly with her about this issue. Take your time. Know yourself, know your limits and boundaries, and be willing to respectfully walk away if you are not getting what you need in order to be happy in the relationship. 

We're not all the same.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

You know what happens to the nice guy? He gets placed in the friend zone. What happens to the alpha type? He gets labeled a masoganist and a pig. So what does make a woman happy? Chit, men have been trying for ages to find this out. A bigger mystery than the origins of our beginnings and what happens when you die.


----------



## farsidejunky

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Your empathy is conditional and requires him to be the patriarchal type. Which helps prove my point made above. Women don't want to admit that they are indeed just as responsible as men are for a patriarchal society. Instead they want to cast all the blame on men. We are taught not to show emotions, not only because it makes us look weak to other men, but also makes us unattractive to women.
> 
> So in 2018 this is what men are hearing from women, "nice guys finish last. We don't want a pushover. Being emotional or having any sense of self doubt is a major turn off and we aren't attracted to men who have any sort of emotional maturity. We want an animal who takes what he wants and claims what is his." followed by "men are dogs and pigs and have no emotional maturity or ability to empathize with women on an emotional level. Men only want one thing and don't care about my feelings. This whole machismo patriarchal society is created by men trying to prove they have a bigger Johnson than the next guy. The term beta male needs to be taken out of the English language because it is shameful that men have to put each other down for not being of the same mind as the classic alpha male character."
> 
> Then women get defensive when men say "you can't ever make a woman happy"


Victim speak.

To pretend that what happens at the macro level actually applies to the micro level leads to painting everyone with a broad brush, just as you've done in this post.


----------



## FrenchFry

TheDudeLebowski said:


> You know what happens to the nice guy? He gets placed in the friend zone. What happens to the alpha type? He gets labeled a masoganist and a pig. So what does make a woman happy? Chit, men have been trying for ages to find this out. A bigger mystery than the origins of our beginnings and what happens when you die.


Stop trying to make *women* happy.


----------



## Faithful Wife

In fact, all of the PUA stuff literally tells men that a woman will va-clang or friendzone him immediately if he shows any vulnerability or shows that he has any needs at all. This was part of why I hated hearing about that crap, because it was telling men to show zero emotion and only show "strength" and that anything less than total cave man level "Grog gonna take you now, Groggette" would totally turn off a woman.

I want to repeat that I know so many women who don't lose desire upon seeing vulnerability that I simply couldn't believe that was true. It sounded so shallow and unyielding to claim that all women were that cold to men, and I just didn't know any women like that (and I know many, many highly sexual women). The PUA stuff also encourages men to "neg" and otherwise diss women in small and not so small ways, because this actually makes her feel attraction for you BECAUSE it shows that you are not a ninny who will jump through her hoops. Sad to say....looks like this is true, too. 

I'm just sorry to you guys for not believing you sooner and not investigating far enough to see this dynamic. It is clear to me now. I don't have any way to do anything about it, but I will certainly adjust and learn new things in all of this. 

Oddly, I just broke up with a boyfriend recently and was doing great because it was just time to let go and move on. I was looking forward to being single for awhile now (not really dating, just doing my own thing). But this thread has made me feel such empathy that I suddenly really want to wrap my arms around a sweet boyfriend and tell him how much I admire and respect him and nurture him and get warm fuzzies going all around.

But I'm not going to do that. It will have to wait until I get my head on a little straighter after this break up....but hopefully in the not too distant future I can throw my arms around someone again.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Absolutely it does. She's said as much. Called it high maintenance, and has told me point blank during the discussions we have had about it that that neediness as she put it made her feel less attracted to me. It is also a complete lack of empathy, at least as far as this issue is concerned because she has said that I am one of the beautiful people, and as as such, I shouldn't need that kind of validation.


:frown2:


----------



## naiveonedave

FrenchFry said:


> Stop trying to make *women* happy.


so you are saying to not meet your SO's needs? Got it.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

GettingIt_2 said:


> .
> But men as a group shouldn't be worried about what they think women as a group think.


Men really care what women think because that is how we attract them. We are the hunters. We have to care what women think. That is our burden. Women dont understand this because women don't really have to care what men think. You guys aren't the hunters.




GettingIt_2 said:


> . We're not all the same.


Yet the majority of you are. So men have to play the odds game. You can't make the exception the rules, then expect us to live life by those odds.


----------



## samyeagar

naiveonedave said:


> so you are saying to not meet your SO's needs? Got it.


I think she meant the opposite. Stop worrying about women, plural, with the implication to worry about his woman, singular.


----------



## Faithful Wife

naiveonedave said:


> so you are saying to not meet your SO's needs? Got it.


I think she's saying ONLY try to meet your woman's needs, not try to figure out "all women".


----------



## GTdad

naiveonedave said:


> so you are saying to not meet your SO's needs? Got it.


We keep slipping back-and-forth between the macro and micro in this thread. French can speak for herself, but I'm pretty sure she's saying that it's futile to try to please an entire gender. It's a challenge sufficient unto itself on the micro level. :smile2:


----------



## Notself

naiveonedave said:


> so you are saying to not meet your SO's needs? Got it.


I think she's saying you are confusing the abstract concept of "Women" with the individual woman you are partners with.

Most likely the individual woman you are partners with will not be very empathetic if you suddenly start having feelings. Somehow, this is supposed to be different from the fact that "Women" as a whole don't have empathy for men.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Men really care what women think because that is how we attract them. We are the hunters. We have to care what women think. That is our burden. Women dont understand this because women don't really have to care what men think. You guys aren't the hunters.
> 
> Yet the majority of you are. So men have to play the odds game. You can't make the exception the rules, then expect us to live life by those odds.


Would you say your wife is the lacking empathy type, dude? If so, then I can see why you'd have to learn about the majority.


----------



## Buddy400

FrenchFry said:


> Stop trying to make *women* happy.


This is *SO* true.

But when you've only heard 'Happy Wife, Happy Life", it's hard to believe.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Buddy400 said:


> This is *SO* true.
> 
> But when you've only heard 'Happy Wife, Happy Life", it's hard to believe.


It actually means "wife who feels safe" = Happy Life

But, that's a tough concept for many.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

farsidejunky said:


> Victim speak.
> 
> To pretend that what happens at the macro level actually applies to the micro level leads to painting everyone with a broad brush, just as you've done in this post.


Only returning the favor. Men are broad brush painted every day on the news, in sitcoms, in movies, in society as a whole. 

To pretend the macro doesnt impact the micro way of thinking is short sighted to put it nicely.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Only returning the favor. Men are broad brush painted every day on the news, in sitcoms, in movies, in society as a whole.
> 
> To pretend the macro doesnt impact the micro way of thinking is short sighted to put it nicely.


To me it looks like yes, the macro is part of the problem with the micro. Especially if "your woman" exhibits any of these behaviors that make it clear she loses her attraction for you if you are not a cave man, then of course it would make sense to start reading these books and blogs about "how attraction works in women".


----------



## naiveonedave

Faithful Wife said:


> I think she's saying ONLY try to meet your woman's needs, not try to figure out "all women".


Makes sense to a degree, howver, in this context: if you are a dude trying to attract females, you need to figure out #mostwomen. If you don't do that, your odds go way down.


----------



## FrenchFry

No.

Stop trying to make women as a whole gender happy.

You've got @faithfulwife saying that she does not find certain vulnerability sexually unattractive. You have @GettingIt_2 saying she does.

If you sit there trying to make both of them fit one correct definition of "women," of course you are going to be unable to make "women" happy.

Figure out what your values are and make it work. You do a cost/value analysis and find that you want the easiest path to sexual desire and find that your odds are better not showing a bunch of vulnerability? Okay, go for it.

You think that that is BS? Okay, you need to date around till you find an FW.


----------



## ReturntoZero

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I Have only read the first 4-5 pages so I don't know if this has been brought up, but here is my initial thoughts.
> 
> When men don't show emotions, often I've seen women blame men for the macho man patriarchy created in society. But after reading the first 4-5 pages, it is clear women are just as much at fault for a mans need to always be strong, show no emotion, pretend everything is ok. To go swinging his junk around, proving he is always top dog, yada yada yada.
> 
> So this same environment where women feel oppressed because of the macho man patriarchy they blame men for creating, turns out most women don't want a weak man and have clearly had their hand in creating it. They are turned on by the macho man as a matter of fact and any sort of emotional vulnerability is seen as a turn off and the VA-clang gang can't stand it.
> 
> Then women want to cry foul and play the victim when a system they have had their hands in creating doesn't work out for them in one way or another. Absolve themselves of their own responsibility in the way men behave and blame shift the hardships they have equally played a part in creating on to men as a whole.


That about sums it up.

The phrase often used is "cake eating"


----------



## FrenchFry

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Only returning the favor. Men are broad brush painted every day on the news, in sitcoms, in movies, in society as a whole.
> 
> To pretend the macro doesnt impact the micro way of thinking is short sighted to put it nicely.


And women don't? Welcome to 2018 bud, it's a jungle out here.


----------



## ReturntoZero

FrenchFry said:


> No.
> 
> Stop trying to make women as a whole gender happy.
> 
> You've got @faithfulwife saying that she does not find certain vulnerability sexually unattractive. You have @GettingIt_2 saying she does.
> 
> If you sit there trying to make both of them fit one correct definition of "women," of course you are going to be unable to make "women" happy.
> 
> Figure out what your values are and make it work. You do a cost/value analysis and find that you want the easiest path to sexual desire and find that your odds are better not showing a bunch of vulnerability? Okay, go for it.
> 
> You think that that is BS? Okay, you need to date around till you find an FW.


Au contraire...

As Faithful Wife has already admitted in this thread, she thought all the red pill stuff was nonsense. I've seen mile long threads with Faithful Wife helping lead the charge "against that nonsense"

I would submit that attempting to find someone who has accumulated the wisdom of reading these stories for years and having an epiphany about where she - herself - was wrong, PLUS the humility to admit same....

You'll be as old as Methusaleh on a search like that.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Men really care what women think because that is how we attract them. We are the hunters. We have to care what women think. That is our burden. Women dont understand this because women don't really have to care what men think. You guys aren't the hunters.
> 
> Yet the majority of you are. So men have to play the odds game. You can't make the exception the rules, then expect us to live life by those odds.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you say your wife is the lacking empathy type, dude? If so, then I can see why you'd have to learn about the majority.
Click to expand...

Nah actually I'm facing losing my job as of right now. I made a mistake yesterday that can easily cost me,my job. I will probably find out tomorrow either way. In my moment of weakness, she has been nothing but empathetic towards me. She has texted me constantly today while I'm off work and assured me she has my back and we will be fine no matter what. She has eased my anxiety over what could be and knows it wont break us. She is really a great woman.

I'm speaking more from what society is doing to men and women, and the further burden placed on men that is impacting gender relations in a negative way for both men and women. As a father of two, a boy and a girl, I see them having a harder time the way things are progressing. So my issues stem from trying to navigate all this mess as a father, not so much as a husband and certainly not as a single man.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> :frown2:


And like many of the men here, I too have a funeral story. I was very close to my youngest sister, as was my wife, and she killed herself. My dad, brother in law, and I were very stoic and rock solid through all the aftermath, planning, arrangements, consoling our partners...you know...being men. Well, I had a pretty hard time keeping it together at the funeral, as did my dad, and brother in law. There was a very visible and palpable withdraw from us by the women. There was no malice, most likely visceral and subconscious, but it was clear that they were so far out of their element. It took a couple of days for things to get back to any semblence of romantic physical affection. In her own words, she just couldn't deal with seeing me break down like that.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> And like many of the men here, I too have a funeral story. I was very close to my youngest sister, as was my wife, and she killed herself. My dad, brother in law, and I were very stoic and rock solid through all the aftermath, planning, arrangements, consoling our partners...you know...being men. Well, I had a pretty hard time keeping it together at the funeral, as did my dad, and brother in law. There was a very visible and palpable withdraw from us by the women. There was no malice, most likely visceral and subconscious, but it was clear that they were so far out of their element. It took a couple of days for things to get back to any semblence of romantic physical affection. In her own words, she just couldn't deal with seeing me break down like that.


That makes me incredibly sad....and confused. :frown2::frown2:


----------



## samyeagar

naiveonedave said:


> Makes sense to a degree, howver, in this context: if you are a dude trying to attract females, you need to figure out #mostwomen. If you don't do that, your odds go way down.


And once you attract one, if you intend on her remaining sexually attracted to you in a relationship, well, you have to do attractive things, but more importantly NOT do unattractive things.


----------



## GettingIt_2

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Men really care what women think because that is how we attract them. We are the hunters. We have to care what women think. That is our burden. Women dont understand this because women don't really have to care what men think. You guys aren't the hunters.
> 
> Yet the majority of you are. So men have to play the odds game. You can't make the exception the rules, then expect us to live life by those odds.


Why do you have to care what women think? I'm not catching your drift. 

If what you are saying boils down to: "I want to be sexually attractive to "women in general", but don't like what I have to do to be sexually attractive to "women in general"," then yeah, you're in a rough spot. But not without autonomy in the matter. 

Are there particular traits that sexually attract you to a woman? I'm assuming there are. If you're like "men in general," then let me be the first to tell you, it ain't no bed of roses over here, either.


----------



## GettingIt_2

samyeagar said:


> And once you attract one, if you intend on her remaining sexually attracted to you in a relationship, well, you have to do attractive things, but more importantly NOT do unattractive things.


I would say that, for a long term relationship, you need to "not do unattractive things on a persistent and ongoing basis."

My husband isn't perfect, and I don't expect him (or any husband to be). One or two days of lost attraction here and there isn't the end of the world. 

It sounds like you and your wife have a fundamental mismatch in the area of her comfort with validating you vs. what you need from her to feel validated. But the fact that the two of you recognize it for what it is and can talk about it is a good thing.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> That makes me incredibly sad....and confused. :frown2::frown2:


It didn't make me sad per se, and it certainly wasn't confusing. Based upon my entire lifetime of experience with many different women in many different situations, at many different ages, in many different places, I neither hoped for, nor expected anything different.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ReturntoZero said:


> Au contraire...
> 
> As Faithful Wife has already admitted in this thread, she thought all the red pill stuff was nonsense. I've seen mile long threads with Faithful Wife helping lead the charge "against that nonsense"
> 
> I would submit that attempting to find someone who has accumulated the wisdom of reading these stories for years and having an epiphany about where she - herself - was wrong, PLUS the humility to admit same....


Yes....true. And I have to say that this is a complete eye opening moment for me.

And even though it is also true that the PUA/red pill type of stuff would not be attractive to *me*, it sounds like I am enough of a minority in my attitude that it would/will work on "most women" or at least a very high percentage of women. I made the mistake of assuming more women were/are like myself (in that I do not want a complete cave man but apparently most or a huge percentage of women do). I totally get why this stuff "works" now....it still would not have "worked" on me, but yeah...it clearly does "work" in the macro sense.

Although I agree with some here who are saying it is useless to focus on the macro and instead any of us should find someone we are interested in and then see how it works with them as an individual...but I can completely understand why people would study attraction factors in the macro, especially if cave men loving women are the macro which seems to be the case.

I'm just using "cave man" as a term because it is getting cumbersome to keep typing out "being vulnerable" and other descriptors.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

GettingIt_2 said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Men really care what women think because that is how we attract them. We are the hunters. We have to care what women think. That is our burden. Women dont understand this because women don't really have to care what men think. You guys aren't the hunters.
> 
> Yet the majority of you are. So men have to play the odds game. You can't make the exception the rules, then expect us to live life by those odds.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you have to care what women think? I'm not catching your drift.
> 
> If what you are saying boils down to: "I want to be sexually attractive to "women in general", but don't like what I have to do to be sexually attractive to "women in general"," then yeah, you're in a rough spot. But not without autonomy in the matter.
> 
> Are there particular traits that sexually attract you to a woman? I'm assuming there are. If you're like "men in general," then let me be the first to tell you, it ain't no bed of roses over here, either.
Click to expand...

Except in the initial stages of attraction, women only really have one thing to offer. You and I and all women and men know exactly what that is. So is that the bed or roses you speak of? Knowing that women only have one thing to offer in the initial attraction phase? Lol. The truth hurts ladies.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> It didn't make me sad per se, and it certainly wasn't confusing. Based upon my entire lifetime of experience with many different women in many different situations, at many different ages, in many different places, I neither hoped for, nor expected anything different.


Omg...this is purely heartbreaking to me.


----------



## FrenchFry

ReturntoZero said:


> Au contraire...
> 
> As Faithful Wife has already admitted in this thread, she thought all the red pill stuff was nonsense. I've seen mile long threads with Faithful Wife helping lead the charge "against that nonsense"
> 
> I would submit that attempting to find someone who has accumulated the wisdom of reading these stories for years and having an epiphany about where she - herself - was wrong, PLUS the humility to admit same....
> 
> You'll be as old as Methusaleh on a search like that.


I know, and I love her for it but my conclusion is different than hers on this topic.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

GettingIt_2 said:


> samyeagar said:
> 
> 
> 
> And once you attract one, if you intend on her remaining sexually attracted to you in a relationship, well, you have to do attractive things, but more importantly NOT do unattractive things.
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that, for a long term relationship, you need to "not do unattractive things on a persistent and ongoing basis."
> 
> My husband isn't perfect, and I don't expect him (or any husband to be). One or two days of lost attraction here and there isn't the end of the world.
> 
> It sounds like you and your wife have a fundamental mismatch in the area of her comfort with validating you vs. what you need from her to feel validated. But the fact that the two of you recognize it for what it is and can talk about it is a good thing.
Click to expand...

To add on, men HAVE to care what women think. Because we have to offer up much more than our ****s to attract a woman. This is what women dont get. You can be working at McDonalds and we will hit on you. You could be living in a trash can and be hot and we will be like "hey baby, why are you in that trash can? Lets go back to my place and get you a shower" women have ONE thing and one thing only when it comes to attracting a man and it works every time. 

It is men who have to care what women think, not the other way around. I'm talking about the initial stages btw, not long lasting relationships. Only then does a woman's value become important to us. For a man, our value is important right off the bat. That is why men care what women think, and women have the luxury of not caring what a man thinks.


----------



## WildMustang

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Except in the initial stages of attraction, women only really have one thing to offer. You and I and all women and men know exactly what that is. So is that the bed or roses you speak of? Knowing that women only have one thing to offer in the initial attraction phase? Lol. The truth hurts ladies.


Really???

LOL


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes....true. And I have to say that this is a complete eye opening moment for me.
> 
> And even though it is also true that the PUA/red pill type of stuff would not be attractive to *me*, it sounds like I am enough of a minority in my attitude that it would/will work on "most women" or at least a very high percentage of women. I made the mistake of assuming more women were/are like myself (in that I do not want a complete cave man but apparently most or a huge percentage of women do). I totally get why this stuff "works" now....it still would not have "worked" on me, but yeah...it clearly does "work" in the macro sense.
> 
> Although I agree with some here who are saying it is useless to focus on the macro and instead any of us should find someone we are interested in and then see how it works with them as an individual...but I can completely understand why people would study attraction factors in the macro, especially if cave men loving women are the macro which seems to be the case.
> 
> I'm just using "cave man" as a term because it is getting cumbersome to keep typing out "being vulnerable" and other descriptors.


There are some things that are 50/50 like women preferring blond hair over black hair, and things like that, so playing the odds is a wash. Other things however such as emotional vulnerability are absolutely not a wash. It is one of the fastest ways to end up in the friend zone with a sizable number of women. As we are all individuals, there of course are going to be variations in what one finds attractive, or at least not unattractive, but emotional vulnerability is one of those near universal unattractives.


----------



## Wolf1974

wild jade said:


> The truths expressed here about women and men both are so far outside of my experience, it's difficult to know how to respond.
> 
> I can't even imagine a relationship where it wasn't possible/acceptable to express vulnerability and emotions. *Why would anyone at all put up with that*?


Simplest answer for me is lack of choice otherwise.


----------



## GettingIt_2

TheDudeLebowski said:


> To add on, men HAVE to care what women think. Because we have to offer up much more than our ****s to attract a woman. This is what women dont get. You can be working at McDonalds and we will hit on you. You could be living in a trash can and be hot and we will be like "hey baby, why are you in that trash can? Lets go back to my place and get you a shower" women have ONE thing and one thing only when it comes to attracting a man and it works every time.


Dude, you might want to raise your standards a little. 



TheDudeLebowski said:


> It is men who have to care what women think, not the other way around. I'm talking about the initial stages btw, not long lasting relationships. Only then does a woman's value become important to us. For a man, our value is important right off the bat. That is why men care what women think, and women have the luxury of not caring what a man thinks.


We only have to care what men think if we want to be valued as more than a lay. 

Absolutely I could go out tonight and find ten different guys to ****. But I know exactly what value they'd place on me as a person.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Omg...this is purely heartbreaking to me.


That's not to say that one can't show vulnerability, and let their guard down, but one has to realize that to do so comes at a cost. Pick your battles to make sure it's worth it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> There are some things that are 50/50 like women preferring blond hair over black hair, and things like that, so playing the odds is a wash. Other things however such as emotional vulnerability are absolutely not a wash. It is one of the fastest ways to end up in the friend zone with a sizable number of women. As we are all individuals, there of course are going to be variations in what one finds attractive, or at least not unattractive, *but emotional vulnerability is one of those near universal unattractives*.


I have argued with you and other men for ages about this, because emotional vulnerability is highly attractive to me and many women I know personally...so at the very least I thought we were a majority or a near majority of women. But given what you men are reporting....I understand that no matter what the real percentages are, it seems obvious to men that the vast majority of women will shrivel up and run away from you if you show any emotional vulnerability.

And also I'm guessing that if you ran across a woman who had more empathy or who was attracted to your vulnerability, you would assume she had already friend or sister zoned you? So that would explain why around here, no matter how many times I tried to say that I do have empathy for men and I am attracted to expressions of vulnerability, most of the men shot back at me like my position really didn't count in their eyes, that I was an anomaly, or that I could only feel empathy for them (the men at TAM) because there was no chance of actual meeting or mating with them (implying that IRL I probably do not have empathy for men). Although that still hurts, and is completely untrue, I can totally understand why men would say it or think it was true.


----------



## GettingIt_2

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Except in the initial stages of attraction, women only really have one thing to offer. You and I and all women and men know exactly what that is. So is that the bed or roses you speak of? Knowing that women only have one thing to offer in the initial attraction phase? Lol. The truth hurts ladies.


Yes, in part that's the bed of roses I was referring to. It doesn't trouble me. The way I look at it, sex is almost always transactional in some way, shape or form. 

But there is also the maintaining of sexual attractiveness over the years in a long term relationship. I harbor no illusions that if I didn't keep fit and physically attractive, dress nicely, keep myself groomed, etc. my husband wouldn't feel a dip in his sexual attraction for me.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> That's not to say that one can't show vulnerability, and let their guard down, but one has to realize that to do so comes at a cost. Pick your battles to make sure it's worth it.


I'm just shocked and saddened that there would ever be a "cost" of crying at your sister's funeral. :frown2::frown2: But I'm opening my eyes and rubbing the pixie dust out, no matter how much it stings.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm just shocked and saddened that there would ever be a "cost" of crying at your sister's funeral. :frown2::frown2: But I'm opening my eyes and rubbing the pixie dust out, no matter how much it stings.


I can’t speak for all men but as I said I learned long ago that I can’t be vulnerable around women, well women I am in a relationship with anyway, outwardly. I have female friends and have been vulnerable around them in a way I never would with my GF.

That said I can get to an “emotionally whole place” often just by having sex. Sex is the ultimate in bonding experience for me so given the option I would rather just have that and not cry anyway lol.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> I have argued with you and other men for ages about this, because emotional vulnerability is highly attractive to me and many women I know personally...so at the very least I thought we were a majority or a near majority of women. But given what you men are reporting....I understand that no matter what the real percentages are, it seems obvious to men that the vast majority of women will shrivel up and run away from you if you show any emotional vulnerability.
> 
> And also I'm guessing that if you ran across a woman who had more empathy or who was attracted to your vulnerability, you would assume she had already friend or sister zoned you? So that would explain why around here, no matter how many times I tried to say that I do have empathy for men and I am attracted to expressions of vulnerability, most of the men shot back at me like my position really didn't count in their eyes, that I was an anomaly, or that I could only feel empathy for them (the men at TAM) because there was no chance of actual meeting or mating with them (implying that IRL I probably do not have empathy for me). Although that still hurts, and is completely untrue, I can totally understand why men would say it or think it was true.


Why do you think there are so many men on here laying their hearts and emotions out to complete strangers, many of them women? Because it's a place men can do that because here, everyone is friend zoned from the get go. No worries about finding or maintaining attraction.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Faithful Wife said:


> I was kind of going to ask something similar of you....can you give some examples of when your H has turned you off, and what he did that was "needy" or whatever? You have given examples of when you've had empathy when he's shown true needs or vulnerability....what does it look like when to you this has become "needy" and gross?





GettingIt_2 said:


> To be clear, I don't think I said I find his behavior "gross." I'm talking about feeling a dip in sexual attraction. I don't feel repulsed.
> 
> I can't think of any specific times off the top of my head.....
> 
> Maybe I should ask him and report back. I think it's been a while since this has been an issue......


Ok! I asked him . . . or tried to. Last night he was out with some buddies, but when he got home and slid under the covers next to me, I snuggled up to him and asked him about it. His response: 

"I don't really understand what you're getting at . . . can you just keep rubbing up against me like that?"

So I snuggled to him harder and started over, telling him I'd like a better feel for whether he feels free to express himself emotionally to me, etc. 

"Hey, lets just focus on sex, how about that?" (Things had progressed a bit from snuggling, by this point.)

So I gave it one last college try, because I don't want him to feel sad about lack of empathy from his wife. 

"No babe, I don't need to talk about my feelings more, but you sure seem to. How about you do something else with that mouth?" 

And so it goes . . . . :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## farsidejunky

TheDudeLebowski said:


> To add on, men HAVE to care what women think. Because we have to offer up much more than our ****s to attract a woman. This is what women dont get. You can be working at McDonalds and we will hit on you. You could be living in a trash can and be hot and we will be like "hey baby, why are you in that trash can? Lets go back to my place and get you a shower" women have ONE thing and one thing only when it comes to attracting a man and it works every time.
> 
> It is men who have to care what women think, not the other way around. I'm talking about the initial stages btw, not long lasting relationships. Only then does a woman's value become important to us. For a man, our value is important right off the bat. That is why men care what women think, and women have the luxury of not caring what a man thinks.


Meh, yes and no. Vajayjays are a dime a dozen. 

Now...a brain behind the vajayjay that I can laugh with, talk to, watch a football game with, and actually want to spend more than a week with? A little more on the uncommon to rare side...but then again I'm quirky that way.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

samyeagar said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have argued with you and other men for ages about this, because emotional vulnerability is highly attractive to me and many women I know personally...so at the very least I thought we were a majority or a near majority of women. But given what you men are reporting....I understand that no matter what the real percentages are, it seems obvious to men that the vast majority of women will shrivel up and run away from you if you show any emotional vulnerability.
> 
> And also I'm guessing that if you ran across a woman who had more empathy or who was attracted to your vulnerability, you would assume she had already friend or sister zoned you? So that would explain why around here, no matter how many times I tried to say that I do have empathy for men and I am attracted to expressions of vulnerability, most of the men shot back at me like my position really didn't count in their eyes, that I was an anomaly, or that I could only feel empathy for them (the men at TAM) because there was no chance of actual meeting or mating with them (implying that IRL I probably do not have empathy for me). Although that still hurts, and is completely untrue, I can totally understand why men would say it or think it was true.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think there are so many men on here laying their hearts and emotions out to complete strangers, many of them women? Because it's a place men can do that because here, everyone is friend zoned from the get go. No worries about finding or maintaining attraction.
Click to expand...

That is also why there is such conflict in opposite sex friends within a marriage. Because of what i highlighted earlier. Men only want sex initially. That is really all a woman has going for her anyway initially of course. Men and women both know this. There is a really good reason women get WAY more plastic surgery than men. Because they know that is all they have to offer in order to attract a man. 

However there are some women who we really don't want any part of that, but they offer the emotional support a man can and does need from a woman that men simply can't give other men and can't ask of their SO because of vs-clank.

I can't talk to my mom about everything, and also she is my mom so her advice would be biased in my favor. She isnt going to tell me where I'm being a dope. She will validate my feelings. Oh also, then I become a mamas boy to my wife, another turn off. Another sure fire way to dry up the vag. 

It is important for a man to have female friends he doesn't want to bang for these reasons. But alas, it is on men and the nature of us that we can't be seen to want to have a friendly relationship with another woman without wanting to bang them. So we kind of shoot ourselves in the foot with our mindsets as well you see.

My closest friend is a woman, and I believe we are mutually disgusted at the thought of a sexual relationship. Ugh /shudder. But if our text exchanges were read by many here, I'm certain most would think we are in an EA. We discuss many close to hear subjects and I don't feel ashamed letting her know and see my vulnerabilities, because I don't want to bang her. 

I can certainly see the argument against opposite sex friends though. The stories tell themselves after all. Its a tough one for sure.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

farsidejunky said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> To add on, men HAVE to care what women think. Because we have to offer up much more than our ****s to attract a woman. This is what women dont get. You can be working at McDonalds and we will hit on you. You could be living in a trash can and be hot and we will be like "hey baby, why are you in that trash can? Lets go back to my place and get you a shower" women have ONE thing and one thing only when it comes to attracting a man and it works every time.
> 
> It is men who have to care what women think, not the other way around. I'm talking about the initial stages btw, not long lasting relationships. Only then does a woman's value become important to us. For a man, our value is important right off the bat. That is why men care what women think, and women have the luxury of not caring what a man thinks.
> 
> 
> 
> Meh, yes and no. Vajayjays are a dime a dozen.
> 
> Now...brain behind the vajayjay that I can laugh with, talk to, what your football game with, and actually want to spend more than a week with? A little more on the uncommon to rare side...but then again I'm quirky that way.
Click to expand...

Nah. You are talking about what keeps you hanging around. Vag is a dime a dozen. We are on the same page there. You are talking about what keeps you going back for more of the same. That is where the rest of the woman's value comes in to play. Initially, what else does a woman have to offer? Nothing really, we just want to bang because she is hot and I want to see what the view looks like when she is sitting on my face or riding me revearse cowgirl. If she is interesting and attractive beyond that, great! Lets see where this goes. 


You see, a guy will bang a girl he cant stand at least once. Just because we still want puss. A girl wouldn't dream of banging a guy she can't stand. Oh, she may bang a guy and find out later she can't stand him, sure. But a guy can loath a girl and if she offers it up, we will take it. At least once anyway. Lol. That goes against the opposite sex friends argument I made earlier for sure. As I said, I can see why people don't want to go there for obvious reasons. Lol


----------



## Faithful Wife

GettingIt_2 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was kind of going to ask something similar of you....can you give some examples of when your H has turned you off, and what he did that was "needy" or whatever? You have given examples of when you've had empathy when he's shown true needs or vulnerability....what does it look like when to you this has become "needy" and gross?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GettingIt_2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be clear, I don't think I said I find his behavior "gross." I'm talking about feeling a dip in sexual attraction. I don't feel repulsed.
> 
> I can't think of any specific times off the top of my head.....
> 
> Maybe I should ask him and report back. I think it's been a while since this has been an issue......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok! I asked him . . . or tried to. Last night he was out with some buddies, but when he got home and slid under the covers next to me, I snuggled up to him and asked him about it. His response:
> 
> "I don't really understand what you're getting at . . . can you just keep rubbing up against me like that?"
> 
> So I snuggled to him harder and started over, telling him I'd like a better feel for whether he feels free to express himself emotionally to me, etc.
> 
> "Hey, lets just focus on sex, how about that?" (Things had progressed a bit from snuggling, by this point.)
> 
> So I gave it one last college try, because I don't want him to feel sad about lack of empathy from his wife.
> 
> "No babe, I don't need to talk about my feelings more, but you sure seem to. How about you do something else with that mouth?"
> 
> And so it goes . . . .
Click to expand...

I wonder what he would think though if he read this thread? It seems like the exchange you had with him last night did not really make him understand what you were getting at.

I have no doubt that your relationship with him is satisfying and that he knows where you stand. But I wonder if he would agree that most women lack empathy for men in general.


----------



## RandomDude

TheDudeLebowski said:


> You see, a guy will bang a girl he cant stand at least once. Just because we still want puss.


Ey? Not me, then again, I can afford to be choosy  Hehe!


----------



## farsidejunky

What say you, @MisterG?

No more posting by proxy!

And how is the mustang?


----------



## ReturntoZero

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes....true. And I have to say that this is a complete eye opening moment for me.
> 
> And even though it is also true that the PUA/red pill type of stuff would not be attractive to *me*, it sounds like I am enough of a minority in my attitude that it would/will work on "most women" or at least a very high percentage of women. I made the mistake of assuming more women were/are like myself (in that I do not want a complete cave man but apparently most or a huge percentage of women do). I totally get why this stuff "works" now....it still would not have "worked" on me, but yeah...it clearly does "work" in the macro sense.
> 
> Although I agree with some here who are saying it is useless to focus on the macro and instead any of us should find someone we are interested in and then see how it works with them as an individual...but I can completely understand why people would study attraction factors in the macro, especially if cave men loving women are the macro which seems to be the case.
> 
> I'm just using "cave man" as a term because it is getting cumbersome to keep typing out "being vulnerable" and other descriptors.


And, I will add a dab of my experience.

I adore my wife. She amuses me. Her laugh is balm for my soul.

HOWEVER...

As (I would assume) many people do in second marriages, we are prone to look for "what was missing" from the first endeavor.

No matter how many times someone can tell you something, it's difficult to hear what they say when what they DO speaks so loudly.

We may "hear" you want us to communicate about our feelings. Then we find that same person arguing with those feelings they so claimed they wished to hear.

And (I would assume) many relationships devolve into a type of primitive power struggle. And, guess what... if the woman "wins" the power struggle, she doesn't feel safe.

The more enlightened among us start reading things and we find such august personaes as the BigBadWolf, MEM, marduk, and Deejo. We test what these men have written vs. actual experience and we find out they are right. No matter what people tell us about this or that, when the rubber hits the road, these guys are RIGHT more often than not. If you're not going to get steamrolled out of your relationship, you internalize what these guys have written and you put it into practice.

Some of us stick around and help others who find themselves at the same crossroads. Personally, I read the GTDS forum as a rule because that's where the ears are open and denial is at a nadir.

The challenge then becomes.... "Ok, your marriage isn't going to be what you'd hoped. With your new toolkit and tactics, is it enough?"

In my case - and in many - the answer was/is "yes". The real secret is being sufficient unto yourself. Yes, you'll battle loneliness and alcohol may seem a more attractive option at times. So what? You only live once.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

RandomDude said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> You see, a guy will bang a girl he cant stand at least once. Just because we still want puss.
> 
> 
> 
> Ey? Not me, then again, I can afford to be choosy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hehe!
Click to expand...

We can all afford to be choosy. What I'm saying is men have the capacity to bang someone we can't stand where women don't have it in them.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Men really care what women think because that is how we attract them. We are the hunters. We have to care what women think. That is our burden. Women dont understand this because women don't really have to care what men think. You guys aren't the hunters.
> 
> Yet the majority of you are. So men have to play the odds game. You can't make the exception the rules, then expect us to live life by those odds.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you say your wife is the lacking empathy type, dude? If so, then I can see why you'd have to learn about the majority.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nah actually I'm facing losing my job as of right now. I made a mistake yesterday that can easily cost me,my job. I will probably find out tomorrow either way. In my moment of weakness, she has been nothing but empathetic towards me. She has texted me constantly today while I'm off work and assured me she has my back and we will be fine no matter what. She has eased my anxiety over what could be and knows it wont break us. She is really a great woman.
> 
> I'm speaking more from what society is doing to men and women, and the further burden placed on men that is impacting gender relations in a negative way for both men and women. As a father of two, a boy and a girl, I see them having a harder time the way things are progressing. So my issues stem from trying to navigate all this mess as a father, not so much as a husband and certainly not as a single man.
Click to expand...

I will add that I don't feel my wife is particularly attracted by my vulnerabilities. More so that she will empathize to the point of getting me back up on the horse. I'm still rather stoic about the subject with her. Lots of "que sera sera" quotes from me. While inside I'm definitely anxious. She can sense it, and responds to that accordingly. But she doesn't seem interested in me sexually at the moment. So her empathy is also self serving to a degree.


----------



## ReturntoZero

TheDudeLebowski said:


> That is also why there is such conflict in opposite sex friends within a marriage. Because of what i highlighted earlier. Men only want sex initially. That is really all a woman has going for her anyway initially of course. Men and women both know this. There is a really good reason women get WAY more plastic surgery than men. Because they know that is all they have to offer in order to attract a man.
> 
> However there are some women who we really don't want any part of that, but they offer the emotional support a man can and does need from a woman that men simply can't give other men and can't ask of their SO because of vs-clank.
> 
> I can't talk to my mom about everything, and also she is my mom so her advice would be biased in my favor. She isnt going to tell me where I'm being a dope. She will validate my feelings. Oh also, then I become a mamas boy to my wife, another turn off. Another sure fire way to dry up the vag.
> 
> It is important for a man to have female friends he doesn't want to bang for these reasons. But alas, it is on men and the nature of us that we can't be seen to want to have a friendly relationship with another woman without wanting to bang them. So we kind of shoot ourselves in the foot with our mindsets as well you see.
> 
> My closest friend is a woman, and I believe we are mutually disgusted at the thought of a sexual relationship. Ugh /shudder. But if our text exchanges were read by many here, I'm certain most would think we are in an EA. We discuss many close to hear subjects and I don't feel ashamed letting her know and see my vulnerabilities, because I don't want to bang her.
> 
> I can certainly see the argument against opposite sex friends though. The stories tell themselves after all. Its a tough one for sure.


My "safe man" when I grew up was actually a woman. We met on this forum and exchanged some PM's and primarily email. We even spoke on the phone from time to time.

Not even once did I consider going to meet her or anything similar and vice versa.

Yes, it can be done.

Of course, her husband eventually demanded no contact and we complied.

What a loss!... right?

Not really.

We were basically already done teaching each other about ourselves.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Faithful Wife said:


> I wonder what he would think though if he read this thread?
> ........But I wonder if he would agree that most women lack empathy for men in general.


Well I guess we might find out, courtesy of Farside. 



farsidejunky said:


> What say you, @MisterG?
> 
> No more posting by proxy!
> 
> And how is the mustang?


Thanks buddy. You know what you just earned me, dontcha?


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

ReturntoZero said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is also why there is such conflict in opposite sex friends within a marriage. Because of what i highlighted earlier. Men only want sex initially. That is really all a woman has going for her anyway initially of course. Men and women both know this. There is a really good reason women get WAY more plastic surgery than men. Because they know that is all they have to offer in order to attract a man.
> 
> However there are some women who we really don't want any part of that, but they offer the emotional support a man can and does need from a woman that men simply can't give other men and can't ask of their SO because of vs-clank.
> 
> I can't talk to my mom about everything, and also she is my mom so her advice would be biased in my favor. She isnt going to tell me where I'm being a dope. She will validate my feelings. Oh also, then I become a mamas boy to my wife, another turn off. Another sure fire way to dry up the vag.
> 
> It is important for a man to have female friends he doesn't want to bang for these reasons. But alas, it is on men and the nature of us that we can't be seen to want to have a friendly relationship with another woman without wanting to bang them. So we kind of shoot ourselves in the foot with our mindsets as well you see.
> 
> My closest friend is a woman, and I believe we are mutually disgusted at the thought of a sexual relationship. Ugh /shudder. But if our text exchanges were read by many here, I'm certain most would think we are in an EA. We discuss many close to hear subjects and I don't feel ashamed letting her know and see my vulnerabilities, because I don't want to bang her.
> 
> I can certainly see the argument against opposite sex friends though. The stories tell themselves after all. Its a tough one for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> My "safe man" when I grew up was actually a woman. We met on this forum and exchanged some PM's and primarily email. We even spoke on the phone from time to time.
> 
> Not even once did I consider going to meet her or anything similar and vice versa.
> 
> Yes, it can be done.
> 
> Of course, her husband eventually demanded no contact and we complied.
> 
> What a loss!... right?
> 
> Not really.
> 
> We were basically already done teaching each other about ourselves.
Click to expand...

Yeah I get it. Well me and my friend have a lot to learn. Plus she is a feminist. Not third wave man hating type, but a traditional type. And I love a good argument. So we go back and forth on those things. Also we like similar nerdy stuff and share similar interests is music and have a similar sense of humor. We get on each others nerves about other things just as much though. Lol. 

I've never deleted at text and my wife is more than welcome to go through my phone any time. She would be angry at some stuff I write, but these are the same complaints on women I would say to a guy at a bar. The difference is I want a challenge. I don't need some guy to say "yeah bro, women are crazy" sometimes I need a woman to tell me "you may be right, but you don't have to be such a **** about it" or "pull your head out of your ars, you are being completely unfair" things like that that men don't really get out of a *****ing session with the bros over a beer after work.


----------



## Holdingontoit

ReturntoZero said:


> It actually means "wife who feels safe" = Happy Life
> 
> But, that's a tough concept for many.


And the most amazing (to me) part is, the safety can be a complete illusion. As long as she FEELS safe, you are golden. Right up until the time you walk out the door. Her feeling of safety does not need to be any more rational than the va-clang reflex.


----------



## farsidejunky

GettingIt_2 said:


> Well I guess we might find out, courtesy of Farside.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks buddy. You know what you just earned me, dontcha?


I'm sure you are just CRUSHED...lol.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Holdingontoit said:


> ReturntoZero said:
> 
> 
> 
> It actually means "wife who feels safe" = Happy Life
> 
> But, that's a tough concept for many.
> 
> 
> 
> And the most amazing (to me) part is, the safety can be a complete illusion. As long as she FEELS safe, you are golden. Right up until the time you walk out the door. Her feeling of safety does not need to be any more rational than the va-clang reflex.
Click to expand...

Ah, but you can also work hard to improve yourself and the best husband and provide that security she seems to crave only to wake up one day and see HER walk out while banging the lesser man with no money, a bad job, bad hygiene or whatever. With the same ol "he gets me" speech. So the free spirit hippy who cant provide that security suddenly trumps all you have worked hard to build for her. The happy wife happy life BS is just that, BS. I don't subscribe to that way of thinking at all. That's doormat speech from my perspective.


----------



## samyeagar

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Ah, but you can also work hard to improve yourself and the best husband and provide that security she seems to crave only to wake up one day and see *HER walk out while banging the lesser man with no money, a bad job, bad hygiene or whatever. With the same ol "he gets me" speech. So the free spirit hippy who cant provide that security* suddenly trumps all you have worked hard to build for her. The happy wife happy life BS is just that, BS. I don't subscribe to that way of thinking at all. That's doormat speech from my perspective.


I doubt the guy you describe here got into her pants by being emotionally vulnerable


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I will add that I don't feel my wife is particularly attracted by my vulnerabilities. More so that she will empathize to the point of getting me back up on the horse. I'm still rather stoic about the subject with her. Lots of "que sera sera" quotes from me. While inside I'm definitely anxious. She can sense it, and responds to that accordingly. But she doesn't seem interested in me sexually at the moment. So her empathy is also self serving to a degree.


I can understand her not feeling particularly sexual at the moment due to anxiety. High anxiety inside of me is about the only thing that can temporarily make me not want sex. But even if I was not feeling sexual, I would not feel any less attracted to him. That is the part that confuses me...however, I see now that it only confuses me because it is not what I feel and I wasn't aware many women (apparently sub consciously) feel a loss of attraction in these types of situations. It still confuses me why that happens in women, but does seem to have to do with a need for security in them.

I'm not sure I've ever really relied on anyone else for security. Even though I felt absolutely and supremely protected and secure with my ex-h, he didn't really provide me with my "security" which is something I've always relied on coming from within myself. I also really enjoyed playing house and cave man games, and that really turns me on. In other words we sometimes played roles that would have looked like I depended on him for my "security", but it was just a role. At any time when he was unable to provide me some type of support or had needs of his own he needed to attend to instead, I never felt a loss of security or attraction. I just stood on my own and knew that's what he was needing to do as well. He typically wanted only a small amount of nurturing or empathy from me when he faced a problem, and then he would go to his Mars/Venus style "cave" and work out his problem for himself. He may then ask me my opinion what he came up with.

I think when I faced problems, I leaned on him a little more than he leaned on me for emotionally support, but if he couldn't provide it at that time I had plenty of other loved ones to lean on (mom, sisters, brother, etc). And I didn't feel a lack of security at those times, either.

The only security related to my feelings for him were related to how secure I was in our love for each other. Not how secure I was as an individual or even a wife.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

samyeagar said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, but you can also work hard to improve yourself and the best husband and provide that security she seems to crave only to wake up one day and see *HER walk out while banging the lesser man with no money, a bad job, bad hygiene or whatever. With the same ol "he gets me" speech. So the free spirit hippy who cant provide that security* suddenly trumps all you have worked hard to build for her. The happy wife happy life BS is just that, BS. I don't subscribe to that way of thinking at all. That's doormat speech from my perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt the guy you describe here got into her pants by being emotionally vulnerable
Click to expand...

Indeed he didn't. Its a care free confidence that got him the forbidden fruit. Which again, goes to show that is ultimately what women want.

Reminds me of a Patrice O'Neal bit about the fisherman. So a man is a fisherman, women are the fish. Our natural instincts are catch and release. So we catch you, then we release you back, but every once in a while a fish jumps back into the boat. And we tell you, "no fish, I have to release you back" so we do, and then you jump back in. So we are like "ok fish, you can stay" so then the fish starts flopping around and scaring away all the other fish. After a while the fish looks at you like, "now that you have caught me, why do you still have your pole? What do you need this boat for? Do you not love me?" So we don't want to be jerks and say "of course I love you." And we get rid of the fishing gear. Next thing you know she loses that respect for you. Starts looking at other men thinking, "well he has a boat, you don't even have a pole anymore" she realizes after making us throw away everything we used to catch her, that she wants a fisherman again. 

He does the bit a lot better than I just tried, but it basically goes something like that.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Patrice also made a point about how men bring women up to their level but women don't do the same for men. So this ties in to the empathy piece a bit. Basically saying when a king marries a woman, she becomes queen. To quote him "she's now the baddest B in the land" above all other women. When a queen marries a guy, it doesn't make him the king of the land. 

Obviously this is a simplified version of royalty and how all that stuff works, but its a funny joke about how men boost up their women, women don't do that for men. A man has to make himself. Not only for himself, but also for his woman. To attract them and to keep them all the same. 

Yeah, I don't think women have the capacity to show empathy for a man the way men do for women. It goes against their nature.


----------



## wild jade

Faithful Wife said:


> I've been struggling with the responses here, too. It is just all so foreign to me. And yes, why would anyone put up with that....but at the same time, I'm just as shocked about the loss of attraction women apparently feel. It sounds like even if men just threw their reservations to the wind and acted emotionally or vulnerable however they actually felt like doing instead of stifling it, every vag near them would immediately va-clang anyway. To me, that is the saddest part and the hardest to understand.
> 
> Men have been saying this for a long time at TAM and I just had no idea how true it was.


It is sad, I agree. But I still think there's a self-selecting thing going on here, which could make for some useful self-reflection.

I've seen my husband's eyes well up at a sad movie without feeling any loss of attraction for him, and would always have his back, whether funeral, job loss, whatever. It's incomprehensible to me that it could be otherwise.

My husband, for his part, was not at all looking for a woman to look after and protect. Indeed he left his ex gf before me because she put him on a pedestal, and what he really wanted was someone who would challenge him.


----------



## Buddy400

naiveonedave said:


> Makes sense to a degree, howver, in this context: if you are a dude trying to attract females, you need to figure out #mostwomen. If you don't do that, your odds go way down.


Also, if you want a woman with whom you can be emotionally vulnerable, you need to figure #mostwomen so that you know what to avoid.


----------



## Buddy400

samyeagar said:


> And once you attract one, if you intend on her remaining sexually attracted to you in a relationship, well, you have to do attractive things, but more importantly NOT do unattractive things.


The key is to know what behaviors are unattractive.

Your mother's never going to tell you. You won't hear it in mainstream media.

It should be your father or older male siblings or friends; but they often haven't figured it out either.

All that's left is the internet.


----------



## ReturntoZero

wild jade said:


> It is sad, I agree. But I still think there's a self-selecting thing going on here, which could make for some useful self-reflection.
> 
> I've seen my husband's eyes well up at a sad movie without feeling any loss of attraction for him, and would always have his back, whether funeral, job loss, whatever. It's incomprehensible to me that it could be otherwise.
> 
> My husband, for his part, was not at all looking for a woman to look after and protect. Indeed he left his ex gf before me because she put him on a pedestal, and what he really wanted was someone who would challenge him.


A movie doesn't have anything to do with your reptilian brain's need to feel safe.

Him being afraid of losing his job and telling you about it is another matter.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Buddy400 said:


> The key is to know what behaviors are unattractive.
> 
> Your mother's never going to tell you. You won't hear it in mainstream media.
> 
> It should be your father or older male siblings or friends; but they often haven't figured it out either.
> 
> All that's left is the internet.


Our culture places an embargo on that sort of truth.


----------



## wild jade

ReturntoZero said:


> A movie doesn't have anything to do with your reptilian brain's need to feel safe.
> 
> Him being afraid of losing his job and telling you about it is another matter.


Errrrr, aren't you rewriting the script? What counts as a "sign of weakness" then? It makes no sense to me to say that women can't stand crybabies and men cannot show any vulnerability even in times of extreme emotional duress, yet turn around and say that bawling during Lassie is totally cool, Because it doesn't make a guy look weak? :scratchhead:

At any rate, I can assure you that my reptilian brain is perfectly capable of watching my husband go through many life difficulties, including job loss, express his honest emotions about them, including anxiety, sadness, depression, and still want to have sex with him. 

How do I know? I've been there!


----------



## wild jade

I'll go one step further and agree with @WildMustang and @Faithful Wife that a guy who is in touch with and can be open and authentic about his feelings is infinitely more attractive to me that one who can't. 

How do I know? Those are the only guys I've ever dated.


----------



## Faithful Wife

wild jade said:


> I'll go one step further and agree with @WildMustang and @Faithful Wife that a guy who is in touch with and can be open and authentic about his feelings is infinitely more attractive to me that one who can't.
> 
> How do I know? Those are the only guys I've ever dated.


Me, too. However I've also never dated an emotionally unstable (clingy/needy in an unhealthy way) person, nor a completely unable/unwilling to open up emotionally at all type of person.

I can say that going forward when I get back into dating again, I will test the waters with a man if he "seems" unable or unwilling to open up emotionally and see if he actually can't, or if he just won't until he feels I might not be turned off. Seems the lesson here is that men assume we don't have empathy for them, so if they seem unable to be vulnerable it may just be that they aren't going to risk that with us because of this assumption.


----------



## Buddy400

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Nah. You are talking about what keeps you hanging around. Vag is a dime a dozen. We are on the same page there. You are talking about what keeps you going back for more of the same. That is where the rest of the woman's value comes in to play. Initially, what else does a woman have to offer? Nothing really, we just want to bang because she is hot and I want to see what the view looks like when she is sitting on my face or riding me revearse cowgirl. If she is interesting and attractive beyond that, great! Lets see where this goes.
> 
> 
> You see, a guy will bang a girl he cant stand at least once. Just because we still want puss. A girl wouldn't dream of banging a guy she can't stand. Oh, she may bang a guy and find out later she can't stand him, sure. But a guy can loath a girl and if she offers it up, we will take it. At least once anyway. Lol. That goes against the opposite sex friends argument I made earlier for sure. As I said, I can see why people don't want to go there for obvious reasons. Lol


Reading the Dude's posts is like reading Red Pill sites......

It's cruder that it has to be to make the point but, if you can somehow look past that, there's a lot of truth.

But, I fear that if he goes on much longer in this vein that @faithfulwife may switch sides again.


----------



## Buddy400

wild jade said:


> At any rate, I can assure you that my reptilian brain is perfectly capable of watching my husband go through many life difficulties, including job loss, express his honest emotions about them, including anxiety, sadness, depression, and still want to have sex with him.
> 
> How do I know? I've been there!


I completely believe you.

What we're talking about here is generalities. There is always plenty of room for exceptions.

I am, in many ways, an exception to how most men are characterized. I feel good about that, but it doesn't mean that the characterizations are not mostly true.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> Reading the Dude's posts is like reading Red Pill sites......
> 
> It's cruder that it has to be to make the point but, if you can somehow look past that, there's a lot of truth.
> 
> But, I fear that if he goes on much longer in this vein that @faithfulwife may switch sides again.


It's true I still don't have a lot of patience for people who are (IMO) being mean, nasty, intolerant, or just plain old jerks about this or any topic, really. I don't see the point in it.

I am sure I have come across as a jerk to people here at TAM and obviously was intolerant myself (particularly to red pill men). But I just took those jabs because I figured the feeling was mutual with those people.

I couldn't blame some of these if they still saw me as a jerk.

And I'm still going to bristle if I read anyone being what seems to be mean, nasty, intolerant, etc. about the entire other gender....but I guess now I'll just also be empathetic to *why* so many men would end up that way. Also I just won't respond to anyone in that case anymore, so as not to throw gasoline on the conversation. Whereas I used to carry a gas can around with me just to do that on purpose.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Faithful Wife said:


> Seems the lesson here is that men assume we don't have empathy for them,


It's usually a very very safe bet.


----------



## ReturntoZero

wild jade said:


> Errrrr, aren't you rewriting the script? What counts as a "sign of weakness" then? It makes no sense to me to say that women can't stand crybabies and men cannot show any vulnerability even in times of extreme emotional duress, yet turn around and say that bawling during Lassie is totally cool, Because it doesn't make a guy look weak? :scratchhead:
> 
> At any rate, I can assure you that my reptilian brain is perfectly capable of watching my husband go through many life difficulties, including job loss, express his honest emotions about them, including anxiety, sadness, depression, and still want to have sex with him.
> 
> How do I know? I've been there!


I don't think a movie touching someone's heart makes them look weak to you.... because it has nothing to do with you.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ReturntoZero said:


> I don't think a movie touching someone's heart makes them look weak to you.... because it has nothing to do with you.


But she did also say....

"At any rate, I can assure you that my reptilian brain is perfectly capable of watching my husband go through many life difficulties, including job loss, express his honest emotions about them, including anxiety, sadness, depression, and still want to have sex with him. 

How do I know? I've been there!"

- - - - 

See this was part of my problem this whole time....when I would state how *I* feel, no one believed me, either. They just assumed I'm like "most women" who apparently they know (and I now understand) do usually lack empathy for men and lose attraction when they view him as weak.

I have claimed so many times what my truth is and been completely disregarded. Ok so I kind of get it now, they thought that I was like "most women" and said one thing but actually wanted something else. 

But at this point....can't we just accept what people are saying about their own truths and lives? Even if maybe "most women" do lack empathy for men and lose attraction at those times, if we are here saying we've been through things with our men that exposed their very souls to us, and yet we remained attracted to them...can you please just believe this is true for us on an individual basis?


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> I have claimed so many times what my truth is and been completely disregarded. Ok so I kind of get it now, they thought that I was like "most women" and said one thing but actually wanted something else.
> 
> But at this point....can't we just accept what people are saying about their own truths and lives? Even if maybe "most women" do lack empathy for men and lose attraction at those times, if we are here saying we've been through things with our men that exposed their very souls to us, and yet we remained attracted to them...can you please just believe this is true for us on an individual basis?


I have always believed that your truth was true.

I've only ever debated whether or not your truth was representative of most women.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> I have always believed that your truth was true.
> 
> I've only ever debated whether or not your truth was representative of most women.


Totes get that now. And apparently, it wasn't.

ETA: I also believed men's individual experiences, and if a man described his wife's lack of empathy I believed him...I just did not believe that "most women" lacked empathy for men. And although I am still not sure if "most women" is accurate or not, I can easily now see why it would appear that way to most men.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Buddy400 said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reading the Dude's posts is like reading Red Pill sites......
> 
> It's cruder that it has to be to make the point but, if you can somehow look past that, there's a lot of truth.
> 
> But, I fear that if he goes on much longer in this vein that @faithfulwife may switch sides again.
> 
> 
> 
> Never been on one of those sites before.
> 
> Nah, I think faithfulwife has an understanding of my writing style by now. I'm crude for a laugh. I don't mean anything by it other than to strike up a little colorful back and forth. Its more entertaining for me this way
Click to expand...


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Never been on one of those sites before.
> 
> Nah, I think faithfulwife has an understanding of my writing style by now. I'm crude for a laugh. I don't mean anything by it other than to strike up a little colorful back and forth. Its more entertaining for me this way


Also I just picture hearing The Dude's voice when I read your posts and that takes the edge off of your words. Though I do still bristle at some of them, even in The Dude's voice.


----------



## Buddy400

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Never been on one of those sites before.
> 
> Nah, I think faithfulwife has an understanding of my writing style by now. I'm crude for a laugh. I don't mean anything by it other than to strike up a little colorful back and forth. Its more entertaining for me this way
> 
> 
> 
> And more entertaining for me as well
Click to expand...


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Never been on one of those sites before.
> 
> Nah, I think faithfulwife has an understanding of my writing style by now. I'm crude for a laugh. I don't mean anything by it other than to strike up a little colorful back and forth. Its more entertaining for me this way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also I just picture hearing The Dude's voice when I read your posts and that takes the edge off of your words. Though I do still bristle at some of them, even in The Dude's voice.
Click to expand...

I say a lot of crude things about men if it makes you feel any better. Lord don't get me started on the mgtow's for example. Those losers.... smh


----------



## ReturntoZero

Faithful Wife said:


> But she did also say....
> 
> "At any rate, I can assure you that my reptilian brain is perfectly capable of watching my husband go through many life difficulties, including job loss, express his honest emotions about them, including anxiety, sadness, depression, and still want to have sex with him.
> 
> How do I know? I've been there!"
> 
> - - - -
> 
> See this was part of my problem this whole time....when I would state how *I* feel, no one believed me, either. They just assumed I'm like "most women" who apparently they know (and I now understand) do usually lack empathy for men and lose attraction when they view him as weak.
> 
> I have claimed so many times what my truth is and been completely disregarded. Ok so I kind of get it now, they thought that I was like "most women" and said one thing but actually wanted something else.
> 
> But at this point....can't we just accept what people are saying about their own truths and lives? Even if maybe "most women" do lack empathy for men and lose attraction at those times, if we are here saying we've been through things with our men that exposed their very souls to us, and yet we remained attracted to them...can you please just believe this is true for us on an individual basis?


Sure thing.

But, I'm certain we'll always wonder why those we've also heard it from didn't really mean it. And, in my case, much relationship trauma resulted from that firm belief that people are what they say they are.

I learned here that I can't listen to a word someone says, I must watch what they do.

I've told you there's a part of me that simply adores my wife. But, to trust that she's going to act on what she says when it comes to my emotions?

Marital suicide.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ReturntoZero said:


> Sure thing.
> 
> But, I'm certain we'll always wonder why those we've also heard it from didn't really mean it. And, in my case, much relationship trauma resulted from that firm belief that people are what they say they are.
> 
> I learned here that I can't listen to a word someone says, I must watch what they do.


Yes - I get that. But at least in the case of Jade, Mustang and myself (as examples only, this topic in particular)...you can see in a person's posts over time if they are consistent and get a general feel for their stance and if it seems to match with their stated actions.

But if life has taught you (anyone) not to trust people's words...maybe it just doesn't matter either way, you will likely see what you have been taught over time by life more often than what you learn over time about a particular individual.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ReturntoZero said:


> I've told you there's a part of me that simply adores my wife. But, to trust that she's going to act on what she says when it comes to my emotions?
> 
> Marital suicide.


:frown2:

I'm sad that that is true.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> ReturntoZero said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think a movie touching someone's heart makes them look weak to you.... because it has nothing to do with you.
> 
> 
> 
> But she did also say....
> 
> "At any rate, I can assure you that my reptilian brain is perfectly capable of watching my husband go through many life difficulties, including job loss, express his honest emotions about them, including anxiety, sadness, depression, and still want to have sex with him.
> 
> How do I know? I've been there!"
> 
> - - - -
> 
> See this was part of my problem this whole time....when I would state how *I* feel, no one believed me, either. They just assumed I'm like "most women" who apparently they know (and I now understand) do usually lack empathy for men and lose attraction when they view him as weak.
> 
> I have claimed so many times what my truth is and been completely disregarded. Ok so I kind of get it now, they thought that I was like "most women" and said one thing but actually wanted something else.
> 
> But at this point....can't we just accept what people are saying about their own truths and lives? Even if maybe "most women" do lack empathy for men and lose attraction at those times, if we are here saying we've been through things with our men that exposed their very souls to us, and yet we remained attracted to them...can you please just believe this is true for us on an individual basis?
Click to expand...

I don't think I would ever discount how someone feels. I do like to make comments to question your conviction and feelings though. Again, that's just my style. I might even secretly agree with you  but where is the fun in that? I'm a bit of a contrarian by nature. And yes, I'm awfully crude about it. 

Lets just say I like to flirt with the ban hammer a bit. I do respect the mods and the rules, I would be lying if I didn't say I enjoy walking that line. 

I also enjoy it when someone gives me a good roast. So I do try to push buttons to gain an emotional response. If you hit me with a zinger, I'm never mad about it. On the contrary it always makes me smile while I'm looking for a ***** in your armor and a chance for counter attack. I'm a little twisted like that. Its nothing personal. The Dude knows no enemies.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> But if life has taught you (anyone) not to trust people's words...maybe it just doesn't matter either way, you will likely see what you have been taught over time by life more often than what you learn over time about a particular individual.


True words right here. Like how it often comes up that a spouse was lied to about something insignificant in whatever forum outside of cwi, no doubt hordes of people will say "if s/he is lying about that, what else could they be lying about? Check you phone bill" basically their life's experiences tell them anyone who lies is more than likely a cheater as well.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DH came home tonight a little on the down side. Not big. He has just been kicking ass and taking names at work and at home. I took his hand and dragged him into the bedroom. Hot damn I love that man. Thanks guys for sharing. Sometimes people do listen.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only returning the favor. Men are broad brush painted every day on the news, in sitcoms, in movies, in society as a whole.
> 
> To pretend the macro doesnt impact the micro way of thinking is short sighted to put it nicely.
> 
> 
> 
> To me it looks like yes, the macro is part of the problem with the micro. Especially if "your woman" exhibits any of these behaviors that make it clear she loses her attraction for you if you are not a cave man, then of course it would make sense to start reading these books and blogs about "how attraction works in women".
Click to expand...

A lot of the blogs I read deal with married men and women. I'm not on the market anyway. 

So as for the blogs written for married couples, lets take a look at sex in marriage. If she isn't giving it up, all the blogs and advice given caters to a woman's emotional needs. Basically the man isn't carrying his weight around the house, with the kids, isn't romantic enough, doesn't buy gifts, isn't spontaneous enough... So on and so forth. Essentially it is the husband's fault she isn't sexually attracted to you in one way or another.

Now flip the script. If it is the husband not giving sex, who again gets the blame? The husband. He is cheating, has low T or ED or some sort of medical issue. He is addicted to porn, it is basically something wrong with him. 

These same issues are repeated on every low sex thread on here I might add. Some way, some how, every low sex marriage turns out the husbands fault on some level. 

So yeah, I'm sorry if I find it hard to believe women show any empathy towards their men. Generally speaking of course


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Now flip the script. If it is the husband not giving sex, who again gets the blame? The husband. He is cheating, has low T or ED or some sort of medical issue. He is addicted to porn, it is basically something wrong with him.
> 
> These same issues are repeated on every low sex thread on here I might add. Some way, some how, every low sex marriage turns out the husbands fault on some level.
> 
> So yeah, I'm sorry if I find it hard to believe women show any empathy towards their men. Generally speaking of course



I get your overall point, but I don't agree on this particular one. When a woman is HD and a man is LD, the typically list of "reasons" given by the masses are....

Did you get fat?

Are you boring in bed?

Do you have enthusiastic sex or just lay there like a dead fish?

Did you used to be a refuser and now he is so resentful he refuses all sex with you?

And then if none of those answers apply, the next step is....

He is gay.

While it may seem that the last one is a way of saying it is husband's fault, it doesn't come across that way to the woman. It feels to her like "you are such a stupid person that you failed to realize your husband is and always has been gay, so it is your fault".


----------



## MisterG

Faithful Wife said:


> I wonder what he would think though if he read this thread? It seems like the exchange you had with him last night did not really make him understand what you were getting at.
> 
> I have no doubt that your relationship with him is satisfying and that he knows where you stand. But I wonder if he would agree that most women lack empathy for men in general.


Hi @faithfulwife. I’m GI’s husband. GI told me about this thread and asked me to jump in.

To answer your questions: (1) this is a very interesting thread. I did not read the whole thing, but I may work through it over the weekend. (2) I had no idea what she was getting at last night. I think I thought she was just being silly and, under the circumstances, I didn't take it seriously. But after talking to her today, and reading some of this thread, and thinking about it, I think it's safe to say that she is on the unempathetic side of the spectrum. But that doesn't bother me much. Everyone has their strengths and weakness, and most of the time you can compromise and find some common ground if both parties are willing to make a genuine effort. We've worked through a lot of problems over the years and have found a way to make everything work. On the whole, our marriage is really good. (3) I’m not sure how to characterize women in general on this issue (I haven't sampled enough >). If you forced me to give an answer, I’m going to say the lack of empathy in women is more likely true than not. 

I don’t have any friends who have told me about situations like crying at a funeral, or specific instances of needing emotional support. I’m sure it happens with my friends just like it’s happened in my relationship, but they don’t talk about it and I don’t think I’ve ever brought it up with them. But based on other situations and the stories I’ve been told, I think women generally don’t have a lot of empathy towards men when they are going through tough times. But I only get one side of the story (from my male friends), so maybe I'm biased. 

A recently divorced friend told me that “men love women, women love children, and children love puppies. And that’s where it ends.” A lot of guys feel that way, but no one is interested in running stories about sad, lonely men who aren't getting sympathy from their wives (and I think men are reluctant to talk about it anyway), so men have no choice but to suck it up and keep going with life. Some guys get resentful. I've been lucky because GI and I have been pretty good at finding common ground on the important issues. Getting there is not always pretty, but we get there. 

Hunter S. Thompson said: “love is when you like someone as much as your motorcycle.” I really identify with this, and I have been spending a lot of time on my motorcycle when the weather is nice. It feeds my soul. I think my motorcycle, good sex (she is a great sexual partner when she gets warmed up), working out, and getting out with friends are all really important factors that keep me emotionally healthy and prevent me from needing more than she can give. She does the same things (aside from the motorcycle) because (maybe) I'm not perfect at meeting her needs either. It's not a perfect solution, but we can both live with it.

@farsidejunky, the Mustang is still great, but I’ve put it away for a couple months until the snow is gone. Thanks for asking.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

NobodySpecial said:


> DH came home tonight a little on the down side. Not big. He has just been kicking ass and taking names at work and at home. I took his hand and dragged him into the bedroom. Hot damn I love that man. Thanks guys for sharing. Sometimes people do listen.


I don't get down often, but there have been a few examples when my wife has pulled me out of such a funk. 

It can be empathy, or...

.... my normally LD wife seems to take a perverse pleasure in reversing my cranky state when it makes a rare appearance. She seems to relish the challenge, as though she gets an extra special joy from proving she has the power not just to attract me, but to attract me at a time when I'm not in the mood. 

Empathy or power play makes no difference, either way, it can be a whole lot of fun.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I don't get down often, but there have been a few examples when my wife has pulled me out of such a funk.
> 
> It can be empathy, or...
> 
> .... my normally LD wife seems to take a perverse pleasure in reversing my cranky state when it makes a rare appearance. She seems to relish the challenge, as though she gets an extra special joy from proving she has the power not just to attract me, but to attract me at a time when I'm not in the mood.
> 
> Empathy or power play makes no difference, either way, it can be a whole lot of fun.


Seems like you'd be motivated to play Mr. Grumpy more often! :laugh:


----------



## MEM2020

Ah the magic laugh. It’s like a drug that you DONT develop a tolerance for. 




ReturntoZero said:


> And, I will add a dab of my experience.
> 
> I adore my wife. She amuses me. Her laugh is balm for my soul.
> 
> HOWEVER...
> 
> As (I would assume) many people do in second marriages, we are prone to look for "what was missing" from the first endeavor.
> 
> No matter how many times someone can tell you something, it's difficult to hear what they say when what they DO speaks so loudly.
> 
> We may "hear" you want us to communicate about our feelings. Then we find that same person arguing with those feelings they so claimed they wished to hear.
> 
> And (I would assume) many relationships devolve into a type of primitive power struggle. And, guess what... if the woman "wins" the power struggle, she doesn't feel safe.
> 
> The more enlightened among us start reading things and we find such august personaes as the BigBadWolf, MEM, marduk, and Deejo. We test what these men have written vs. actual experience and we find out they are right. No matter what people tell us about this or that, when the rubber hits the road, these guys are RIGHT more often than not. If you're not going to get steamrolled out of your relationship, you internalize what these guys have written and you put it into practice.
> 
> Some of us stick around and help others who find themselves at the same crossroads. Personally, I read the GTDS forum as a rule because that's where the ears are open and denial is at a nadir.
> 
> The challenge then becomes.... "Ok, your marriage isn't going to be what you'd hoped. With your new toolkit and tactics, is it enough?"
> 
> In my case - and in many - the answer was/is "yes". The real secret is being sufficient unto yourself. Yes, you'll battle loneliness and alcohol may seem a more attractive option at times. So what? You only live once.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> Seems like you'd be motivated to play Mr. Grumpy more often! :laugh:


Don’t think I haven’t thought about it!


----------



## 269370

GettingIt_2 said:


> I think what I'm struggling with in this thread a bit is what it means when someone says the woman "lacks empathy." I wouldn't say that I lack empathy, but I have admitted that I notice a dip in my sexual attraction when I'm called upon to be in the supportive, nurturing role for extended periods of time. I'm not talking about seeing a man cry at a funeral. I expect men to show those sorts of emotions in the moment.
> 
> But even if I was in a nurturing role for an extended period of time, that doesn't mean that I'm going to refuse sex. The details do matter. *If he fell off a ladder and broke his leg, but goes to the doctor and gets treatment and needs my support while he heals, that's one thing. If he's got health issues and is not following the doctor's advice and expects me to have empathy when he's feeling crappy as a result, that another issue. If he loses his job and needs to focus his time and energy on finding a new one, I'm happy to support him. If he loses his job and wants to spend a few hours a day playing video games while he "gets over the shock," forget it. *
> 
> So am I a woman who falls into the category of "doesn't have empathy for men?"
> 
> Someone mentioned earlier that they don't find stoicism attractive. I do. But it's a trait I admire in both men and women, so I'm not sure where to parse my feelings along sexist lines, and when it's just a character trait that I admire.


And that's completely healthy, I would have thought. In the end it's about balance. I think it's good for men to acknowledge this aspect (also because too many men become just 'too comfortable' and use their spouse as an emotional dumping ground as well as expect them to read their minds about everything) and for women to acknowledge that men sometimes need a supportive hand (emotionally) or shoulder. Whichever body part helps the most...

I am not too bothered if my partner experienced a small dip (I am sure she does in any case, depending on many things, there is life that gets in the way too): I would not expect her to walk around being always 100% turned on by me constantly nor would I make it my goal for her to be that way.

I have to say I cannot be 100% if my wife even experiences a dip whenever I am emotional with her: some of it could be projecting my own insecurities onto her. If I asked her, I am pretty sure she would say there are definitely 'no dips' from that.


----------



## 269370

naiveonedave said:


> basically I agree with you, however, the general *advice given to men is to be more emotiona*l, and that is, on average, actually horrible advice given the research. That is my point. It is not your advice, it is the advice from society.


I am not sure that's the advice: I thought the general advice is to be open and emotionally empathetic* towards women.* I think some women do say they would like an emotionally vulnerable man but I think that's up to a point and it's not the majority (and it's also not always very clear at all what they mean by 'vulnerable'). The advice I came across actually is more to do with being like a rock with your woman: she needs to feel that she can always 'fall' on you. That's what my mum used to say how she felt about my dad and same with my grandparents.

I do find it noteworthy that women seem to relate so much better to this type of need (emotional need) than other needs. Perhaps because it's easier to relate: if the tables were turned and the woman felt cut off (emotionally), it would probably feel fairly devastating. 

Maybe what I am going to say sounds controversial but I would perhaps rank emotional need for a man equal or perhaps even secondary to sexual need. If I felt low about something: I usually feel much better about things after I had a chance to connect sexually with IMP2. I think perhaps the connection between emotional/sexual need for an average man is a little closer or easier to achieve than it is for an average woman, almost to the point that the two needs could be interchangeable. But maybe it's just me. Perhaps I have been 'trained' this way: when I am low, my wife would make more of an effort to have sex with me (I think it's to make me feel better about things).
That's not to say she is more attracted to me, just that I think she thinks that is a sure way to make me feel better (and I don't think she's completely wrong), even if only temporarily.


----------



## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> I KNEW I was going to get that wrong and was just too lazy to go look it up.
> 
> Woe is me :crying:


I am not sure: the sound will probably have to depend on the amount of Kegel exercises one will have gone through. :nerd:


----------



## 269370

samyeagar said:


> She would be absolutely terrified to her core and want to get away from him as fast as possible.


I don't think that's completely correct: she was specific about not liking being expected to take responsibility for her husband's stuff.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now flip the script. If it is the husband not giving sex, who again gets the blame? The husband. He is cheating, has low T or ED or some sort of medical issue. He is addicted to porn, it is basically something wrong with him.
> 
> These same issues are repeated on every low sex thread on here I might add. Some way, some how, every low sex marriage turns out the husbands fault on some level.
> 
> So yeah, I'm sorry if I find it hard to believe women show any empathy towards their men. Generally speaking of course
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I get your overall point, but I don't agree on this particular one. When a woman is HD and a man is LD, the typically list of "reasons" given by the masses are....
> 
> Did you get fat?
> 
> Are you boring in bed?
> 
> Do you have enthusiastic sex or just lay there like a dead fish?
> 
> Did you used to be a refuser and now he is so resentful he refuses all sex with you?
> 
> And then if none of those answers apply, the next step is....
> 
> He is gay.
> 
> While it may seem that the last one is a way of saying it is husband's fault, it doesn't come across that way to the woman. It feels to her like "you are such a stupid person that you failed to realize your husband is and always has been gay, so it is your fault".
Click to expand...

Yeah, but you are listing responses given to men by other men though. A woman isn't going to ask another woman any of those questions. They will almost immediately go straight to the porn question. 

The articles and advice I'm talking about are written by women. So again, no empathy from the women given to the men in that situation or reverse when it is the woman saying no all the time.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

I feel I need to address one more thing. When I'm speaking about "men are xyz" and "women are xyz" I'm making general statements because I feel that it is implied. Do we really need to preface everything to cover all our bases? If you don't fit into my statements, I'm not talking about you. I'm not talking about anyone in particular because I don't really know anyone here like that anyway. 

Its like when I'm painting a wall. I use a large roller. But I use a wide brush for the corners, a smaller brush around the molding, and an edge tool around the ceiling. Many people here lie in the corners or near the trim. I'm not going to take the time to paint everything with a small brush. So I formally apologize for my laziness in my brush strokes. It would take too long to paint a room with a single brush after all. But I recognize it looks sloppy if I only use a large roller for everything. Once I'm done with my roller, I am more than happy to go back touch up with the brush on areas where its pointed out to me that I missed a spot 

This is more for you @Faithful Wife. I don't mean to offend you or any other person here just for the sake of offending you. I only mean for a spirited debate without getting into exceptions and one offs and minorities and all the nuances of human beings. I think most of my general statements do apply to majority or the macro as we have been discussing. If I am wrong, like you @faithful I am more than willing to admit it and change my tune. You yourself admitted to carrying a gas can with you. I'm sad I missed those days. We might have had some epic battles


----------



## Holdingontoit

ReturntoZero said:


> in my case, much relationship trauma resulted from that firm belief that people are what they say they are.
> 
> I learned here that I can't listen to a word someone says, I must watch what they do.
> 
> I've told you there's a part of me that simply adores my wife. But, to trust that she's going to act on what she says when it comes to my emotions?
> 
> Marital suicide.


Exactly. My wife got worried that I might see a prostitute since, well, we aren't having any sex and I sometimes do happy hour with a guy who does go to strip clubs and get lap dances. I told her not to worry, I am a cheapskate who would never pay for a lap dance, and also I did have sex with a prostitute once decades ago and didn't enjoy it and felt disgusted with myself after. So she has nothing to worry about, since I would never do that.

She complained that I did not say "honey, I love you too much to ever do that to you". I replied "well, I do love you and I would never do that to you but frankly you would be foolish to rely on that since I would say that whether it is true or not and I could by lying through my teeth, but my saying I am too cheap and ashamed to go to a hooker is a lot more reliable since you know darn well I AM cheap and that all my behavior is shame-based." Talk is cheap. Watch what they do. My behavior over decades shows that I never spend big money on myself. $650 for one hour in a private room at a NYC strip club? Heck, for that kind of money I could buy a Xbox One X and a couple of games and be entertained for hundreds of hours. Anyone who knows me knows that if I were in the mood to treat myself to a luxury item, the strip club has no chance of winning out over the Xbox One.


----------



## uhtred

Doesn't your approach suggest that if you did end up with money you might hire a high class escort? That seems like a valid thing for her to be worried about. 






Holdingontoit said:


> Exactly. My wife got worried that I might see a prostitute since, well, we aren't having any sex and I sometimes do happy hour with a guy who does go to strip clubs and get lap dances. I told her not to worry, I am a cheapskate who would never pay for a lap dance, and also I did have sex with a prostitute once decades ago and didn't enjoy it and felt disgusted with myself after. So she has nothing to worry about, since I would never do that.
> 
> She complained that I did not say "honey, I love you too much to ever do that to you". I replied "well, I do love you and I would never do that to you but frankly you would be foolish to rely on that since I would say that whether it is true or not and I could by lying through my teeth, but my saying I am too cheap and ashamed to go to a hooker is a lot more reliable since you know darn well I AM cheap and that all my behavior is shame-based." Talk is cheap. Watch what they do. My behavior over decades shows that I never spend big money on myself. $650 for one hour in a private room at a NYC strip club? Heck, for that kind of money I could buy a Xbox One X and a couple of games and be entertained for hundreds of hours. Anyone who knows me knows that if I were in the mood to treat myself to a luxury item, the strip club has no chance of winning out over the Xbox One.


----------



## 269370

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I feel I need to address one more thing. When I'm speaking about "men are xyz" and "women are xyz" I'm making general statements because I feel that it is implied. Do we really need to preface everything to cover all our bases? If you don't fit into my statements, I'm not talking about you. I'm not talking about anyone in particular because I don't really know anyone here like that anyway.
> 
> Its like when I'm painting a wall. I use a large roller. But I use a wide brush for the corners, a smaller brush around the molding, and an edge tool around the ceiling. Many people here lie in the corners or near the trim. I'm not going to take the time to paint everything with a small brush. So I formally apologize for my laziness in my brush strokes. It would take too long to paint a room with a single brush after all. But I recognize it looks sloppy if I only use a large roller for everything. Once I'm done with my roller, I am more than happy to go back touch up with the brush on areas where its pointed out to me that I missed a spot


You can just preface 'women' with 'most' or 'many' or 'some', depending on context, then it shouldn't offend anyone - it should be very easy/straightforward with the right phrasing not to offend. (Though I still manage sometimes). The ones who don't feel they fit into the category would (in theory) just not take it personally.
It's in any case not a good idea to generalise because it *can sometimes* :smile2: come across as narrow-minded.


----------



## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> It's in any case not a good idea to generalise because it *can sometimes* :smile2: come across as narrow-minded.


How could we even talk about topics like this if we don't generalize? How does that work exactly? Should we only have posts about specific topics and people? 

I really don't get adults who can't understand that when you have conversations like this it doesn't mean that you are speaking about every women or men and that there are exceptions, and instead get offended. I can see that you may vehemently disagree, but why take offense to what some random say on a message board anyway? This kind of thinking really only stops conversation, if you disagree argue your point why the opinion is wrong.


----------



## wild jade

Faithful Wife said:


> Me, too. However I've also never dated an emotionally unstable (clingy/needy in an unhealthy way) person, nor a completely unable/unwilling to open up emotionally at all type of person.
> 
> I can say that going forward when I get back into dating again, I will test the waters with a man if he "seems" unable or unwilling to open up emotionally and see if he actually can't, or if he just won't until he feels I might not be turned off. Seems the lesson here is that men assume we don't have empathy for them, so if they seem unable to be vulnerable it may just be that they aren't going to risk that with us because of this assumption.


It's been a long, long time since I've been on the dating scene. But from what I remember, I wouldn't expect much in the way of emotional vulnerability, especially in those early days. I'm not one to wear my heart on my sleeve either, and when I first started dating my husband, I held him at arm's length for a year, maybe more. Vulnerability, IMHO, isn't something you give to just anyone, anytime. Why would I want more from him than I would be willing to give? 

After 20+ years together, I've met his demons, he's met mine, and we've helped each other face them. We're kindred spirits that have been through a lot together, and from that built a bond that I couldn't even imagine when we first started. But it took time to get there. In the very early days, what mattered most to me was how he treated others, whether his actions matched his words, and how he felt about me. The rest came later.


----------



## sokillme

Faithful Wife said:


> I get your overall point, but I don't agree on this particular one. When a woman is HD and a man is LD, the typically list of "reasons" given by the masses are....
> 
> Did you get fat?
> 
> Are you boring in bed?
> 
> Do you have enthusiastic sex or just lay there like a dead fish?
> 
> Did you used to be a refuser and now he is so resentful he refuses all sex with you?
> 
> And then if none of those answers apply, the next step is....
> 
> He is gay.
> 
> While it may seem that the last one is a way of saying it is husband's fault, it doesn't come across that way to the woman. It feels to her like "you are such a stupid person that you failed to realize your husband is and always has been gay, so it is your fault".


Those are all possibilities though, should they not be mentioned? We tell guys whose wives have moved out to check their phone bill because lots of times it's proven they the wives are cheating. Should we not say it because it might upset them?


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## Holdingontoit

wild jade said:


> In the very early days, what mattered most to me was how he treated others, whether his actions matched his words, and how he felt about me.


And there lies the trap for men. Yes, she treats the waiter well when the dish comes out poorly. Yes, she is patient with the gate agent when her flight is delayed. Nevertheless, the odds are high that she STILL does not want to hear or have any sympathy for HER MAN's problems, weaknesses, vulnerabilities, etc.


----------



## alte Dame

I haven't read through all the replies here, so apologies at the outset.

That being said.....

I think I generally lacked empathy for men because I experienced them in the power position and thought that, relatively speaking, they really had little to complain about compared to me. (And please remember that I am in an older generation in which when little girls were asked what they wanted to be when they grew up, the most common answer was 'a bride.')

Then I had a son and my eyes were suddenly opened. I could see a man's world a bit through the lens of that little boy whom I loved so unconditionally.

That, I think, was the start of empathy for me for men. It's taken me a long time to feel it for my H, who is a pretty typical successful alpha guy, but feel it I do.

So, for me the difference in power created a lack of identification with the male experience and thus a lack of empathy.


----------



## 269370

wild jade said:


> It's been a long, long time since I've been on the dating scene. But from what I remember, I wouldn't expect much in the way of emotional vulnerability, especially in those early days. *I'm not one to wear my heart on my sleeve either, and when I first started dating my husband, I held him at arm's length for a year, maybe more. Vulnerability, IMHO, isn't something you give to just anyone, anytime.* Why would I want more from him than I would be willing to give?
> 
> After 20+ years together, I've met his demons, he's met mine, and we've helped each other face them. We're kindred spirits that have been through a lot together, and from that built a bond that I couldn't even imagine when we first started. But it took time to get there. In the very early days, what mattered most to me was how he treated others, whether his actions matched his words, and how he felt about me. The rest came later.


I think that's sensible. You don't want to be too vulnerable too soon.

One of my greatest fears when I began looking for a mate in my teens was to fall for a trap, i.e. meeting a woman who_ pretends _to embrace an 'emotionally vulnerable' man, who _pretends _to have a high sexual drive, basically who pretends anything to get a guy interested...either because she was feeling lonely and desperate for a partner. My radar in this department was always 100% I have to say as I always had good intuitions about people's personalities. I can't stand fake people.

Luckily, I have always managed to avoid such a type instinctively, mainly by doing the mate selecting myself (rather than be selected) and not always believing when words didn't match actions. This has served me well overall.


----------



## Faithful Wife

wild jade said:


> It's been a long, long time since I've been on the dating scene. But from what I remember, I wouldn't expect much in the way of emotional vulnerability, especially in those early days. I'm not one to wear my heart on my sleeve either, and when I first started dating my husband, I held him at arm's length for a year, maybe more. Vulnerability, IMHO, isn't something you give to just anyone, anytime. Why would I want more from him than I would be willing to give?
> .


It wouldn't work like that with me. If I'm dating someone (beyond just a few dates) I'm not going to hold them at arm's length. I may not wear my entire heart on my sleeve immediately, but I am very open and happy to be vulnerable and real with each other and see how deep the well runs.

So I do want to be with someone who is similar and so far, that is what I have found. I think other types that don't fit well with me probably just bounce off right away before anything is established. Like attracts like.

I was thinking more of the type of guy who seems a little closed off or unnecessarily stoic...that if I ended up on a date with a guy like that I would not assume he can't be vulnerable right away, where I probably would have assumed that before. Now I'm thinking if I like him otherwise, I would try a few more dates to see if there is more beneath or not, and might ask some questions to gauge his thoughts on empathy, vulnerability, women and men, etc.


----------



## wild jade

Holdingontoit said:


> And there lies the trap for men. Yes, she treats the waiter well when the dish comes out poorly. Yes, she is patient with the gate agent when her flight is delayed. Nevertheless, the odds are high that she STILL does not want to hear or have any sympathy for HER MAN's problems, weaknesses, vulnerabilities, etc.


I wasn't really talking about waiters and gate agents, though I would agree that these too can be very early signals of attitude. 

That said, the impression I'm getting, FWIW, is that certain sorts of dynamics actually give a pretty strong indicator of whether a woman will be open to her man's weaknesses and vulnerabilities. A woman who is looking to her man to provide her with a "safe harbor", for example, is going to be a whole lot less tolerant of weakness than a woman who is more self-sufficient.


----------



## wild jade

I would add that, IME at least, men's unwillingness to express emotions is driven largely by their own attitudes, not women's empathy. My father is a classic example of this. The only emotion he felt safe with was anger, and so anything else he felt was tamped down and then resurfaced as anger. 

No doubt societal expectations generally helped make him that way, but the woman he married had plenty of empathy for him.


----------



## 269370

I forgot to add to my post that I don't believe t's actually possible to be 'yourself' on the first few dates. Or even first few months. I mean of course you are going to be YOU but the person you are with is not going to know the whole of you so quickly: they will only be getting snippets of you (whichever snippets you will want them to see). Same in reverse: so if you 'wear your heart on a sleeve' and the other person appears to be highly empathetic, but then turns out not to be so much later on, when they settled down or got bored with you, you will have exposed and caused yourself a HUGE amount of pain unnecessarily.
Trust is earned (over time), not just given. The longer the time period, the more secure and 'real' that trust becomes. (IMO)



wild jade said:


> It's been a long, long time since I've been on the dating scene. But from what I remember, I wouldn't expect much in the way of emotional vulnerability, especially in those early days. I'm not one to wear my heart on my sleeve either, and when I first started dating my husband, I held him at arm's length for a year, maybe more. Vulnerability, IMHO, isn't something you give to just anyone, anytime. Why would I want more from him than I would be willing to give?
> 
> After 20+ years together, I've met his demons, he's met mine, and we've helped each other face them. We're kindred spirits that have been through a lot together, and from that built a bond that I couldn't even imagine when we first started. But it took time to get there. In the very early days, what mattered most to me was how he treated others, whether his actions matched his words, and how he felt about me. The rest came later.


----------



## ReturntoZero

alte Dame said:


> I haven't read through all the replies here, so apologies at the outset.
> 
> That being said.....
> 
> I think I generally lacked empathy for men because I experienced them in the power position and thought that, relatively speaking, they really had little to complain about compared to me. (And please remember that I am in an older generation in which when little girls were asked what they wanted to be when they grew up, the most common answer was 'a bride.')
> 
> Then I had a son and my eyes were suddenly opened. I could see a man's world a bit through the lens of that little boy whom I loved so unconditionally.
> 
> That, I think, was the start of empathy for me for men. It's taken me a long time to feel it for my H, who is a pretty typical successful alpha guy, but feel it I do.
> 
> So, for me the difference in power created a lack of identification with the male experience and thus a lack of empathy.


This is worth mentioning. Because it's do damned important. Do you really "know" the other person?

I KNOW my wife was an abuse victim as a young child. I KNOW she thinks her adoptive parents didn't love her.

What does that mean for me?

Well, it PREDISPOSES her to a lack of empathy. It's very very simple for her to take the victim chair and compare the intense pain and suffering of her youth with anyone else's problems - including mine. This basically sets the table for her to judge my feelings.

Does that feel like a lack of empathy? What do you think? It feels like it because it IS.

I realized that whatever she "said" she was like, she really wasn't the slightest bit self-aware.

Of course, I'd see the empathy and care poured out in boatloads to her own kids... but that's a different thread. Our personalities all have different parts and the part I got was "cold hearted *****".

I had two choices. Grow up, learn how to win this power struggle or get out. Of course, had I listened to the chorus on TAM, we'd be divorced. 3 year separations almost never end well. But, I realized she was on this earth to teach me. I wanted to learn what I didn't understand and once I "got it", I could see her clearly.

I don't expect things she's unable to give and I rejoice in the merry laughter, quick wit, white hot sex, and systems-oriented brainpower.

Disrespect? Nope. Won't tolerate that for one minute. So, we still have the occasional intense stand-off.

My road to recovery started when I realized initiating sex when being treated like crap was a "thank you" for dumping on me.

Knowing this woman has been my greatest project and my greatest accomplishment - and has fostered my greatest personal growth.

The word "spouse" in Hebrew means "adversary". I'd say the ancient Jews were pretty smart.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ReturntoZero said:


> Knowing this woman has been my greatest project and my greatest accomplishment - and has fostered my greatest personal growth.


Hmmmmm.....

I don't know your story but it doesn't seem like another person should be a "project" to us, nor that another person can be our own "greatest accomplishment". :scratchhead:

Maybe I am reading you wrong and you meant that the relationship with her has been your greatest project? Not she, herself?


----------



## 269370

And I think that's the crux and perhaps why 'true empathy' is so hard to maintain. Love between two mates is not and cannot be (biologically and evolutionary) the same as between a mother and child (the same: as in as strong). If it could be, then none of these discussions would ever need to take place. *Any* of these issues tend to arise and hve a domino effect from lack of trust. Because the bond between two mates is never as strong, it takes a lot of work to build it up, maintain it but then takes seconds to ruin it. It's very fragile and perhaps maybe not even meant to last. The 'marriage' and the vows are perhaps (comparatively) a much more modern construct and so is 'true empathy' for your mate.



alte Dame said:


> I haven't read through all the replies here, so apologies at the outset.
> 
> That being said.....
> 
> I think I generally lacked empathy for men because I experienced them in the power position and thought that, relatively speaking, they really had little to complain about compared to me. (And please remember that I am in an older generation in which when little girls were asked what they wanted to be when they grew up, the most common answer was 'a bride.')
> 
> *Then I had a son and my eyes were suddenly opened. I could see a man's world a bit through the lens of that little boy whom I loved so unconditionally.
> *
> That, I think, was the start of empathy for me for men. It's taken me a long time to feel it for my H, who is a pretty typical successful alpha guy, but feel it I do.
> 
> So, for me the difference in power created a lack of identification with the male experience and thus a lack of empathy.


----------



## sokillme

wild jade said:


> I would add that, IME at least, men's unwillingness to express emotions is driven largely by their own attitudes, not women's empathy. My father is a classic example of this. The only emotion he felt safe with was anger, and so anything else he felt was tamped down and then resurfaced as anger.
> 
> No doubt societal expectations generally helped make him that way, but the woman he married had plenty of empathy for him.


True it's our own attitude but it's also the messages we get from a young age that we need to be strong. The "Quit being a sissy" stuff, the movies we watch, the culture. 

However I think lots of us like being strong. I don't really feel the need to tell my wife my suffering, that doesn't mean we don't have emotional conversations, or I had my emotions, or even that we don't have conversations about emotions in general. I am not however looking for her to prop me up emotionally. I get much more comfort out of being strong for her, it makes me feel good, I see it as part of what I was put here to do. I feel no loss that my wife doesn't provide this for me. 

I should say though as far as your father, I get that the anger thing is messed up. I feel bad for your Mom. When people act this way I think sometimes it's because they are not emotionally healthy or more so they are emotionally undeveloped. I don't think this is a gender thing in the sense that I don't think men act this way because they are men, I think they have been let down by poor expectations. I have brought this up in other threads but part of that is the way society thinks and generalities men. There is this idea that we are not capable of emotional intelligence which is just a lie. Like everything else though, we need to be trained to be that way. So many men our let down by their parents because there is just no emphasis put on this, and the reason is because of this idea that men are just not capable. In a sense you could say some of this is also because of lack of empathy. We all have been hurt by this. 

Women are hurt too, as some are not trained because it is just expected that they have an aptitude for it. Many really don't and this manifests in different ways. 

If you look at writings from Men from a few hundred years ago they were much more capable of expressing their feelings, even for other men. This kind of machismo stoic idea has really hurt all of us. But expressing your feelings doesn't make you vulnerable at all, at least in my mind. It makes you strong and confident. There is difference in saying, I am feeling down right now, and saying I am feeling down and I NEED YOU to fix it.


----------



## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> And I think that's the crux and perhaps why 'true empathy' is so hard to maintain. Love between two mates is not and cannot be (biologically and evolutionary) the same as between a mother and child. If it could be, then none of these discussions would ever need to take place. *Any* of these issues tend to arise and hve a domino effect from lack of trust. Because the bond between two mates is never as strong, it takes a lot of work to build it up, maintain it but then takes seconds to ruin it. It's very fragile and perhaps maybe not even meant to last. The 'marriage' and the vows are perhaps (comparatively) a much more modern construct and so is 'true empathy' for your mate.


This is an interesting thing too. I think just like some women want a father figure as a husband some men want a Mother. Like I would be embarrassed to be some of the men that I read about on these boards. Like their wives literally have to treat them like their children, telling them to do things that no adult man or women should have to tell another person to do. Never doing anything around the house or taking care of their responsibilities, acting out like children. I don't get men who behave that way. I don't think anyone would be able to have empathy in those kind of situations.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

inmyprime said:


> I forgot to add to my post that I don't believe t's actually possible to be 'yourself' on the first few dates. I mean of course you are going to be yourself but the person you are with is not going to know the whole of you from the first few dates: they will only be getting snippets of you (whichever snippets you will want them to see). Same in reverse: so if you 'wear your heart on a sleeve' and the other person appears to be highly empathetic, but then turns out not to be so much later on, when they get bored with you, you will have exposed and caused yourself a HUGE amount of pain unnecessarily.
> Trust is earned, not given.


I don't agree with this approach whole heartedly although I do understand what you are saying. Granted, I've been out of the dating game for nearly 20 years, but if I were to ever return (I sure hope not) I would probably be as honest and upfront as possible as to what I'm looking for and what my intentions are right off the bat. Get it out of the way asap. If she walks, so be it. No sense in wasting each others time. I would also think this would help her as much as me. You can still have a fun date even if you know its not going to go anywhere right off the bat. Shake hands and say good luck and move on. Or if our goals and intentions work for one another, and the date goes well, we can move forward and see where it goes.


----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> This is an interesting thing too. I think just like some women want a father figure as a husband some men want a Mother. Like I would be embarrassed to be some of the men that I read about on these boards. Like their wives literally have to treat them like their children, telling them to do things that no adult man or women should have to tell another person to do. Never doing anything around the house or taking care of their responsibilities, acting out like children. I don't get men who behave that way. I don't think anyone would be able to have empathy in those kind of situations.


Btw, I meant love being 'the same', i.e. as strong, as unconditional. I think I refer here to the Dawkin's (Selfish Gene) definitions that explains it well, on a genetic level (probably one of the best 'relationships' books ever written 

There is something to be said about some men wanting a mother figure and some women having a 'daddy' complex, but I think that's not what I was referring to.


----------



## uhtred

I agree that you really aren't "yourself" when first meeting someone. OTOH I think you can avoid intentionally giving an inaccurate representation of yourself. 






inmyprime said:


> I forgot to add to my post that I don't believe t's actually possible to be 'yourself' on the first few dates. Or even first few months. I mean of course you are going to be yourself but the person you are with is not going to know the whole of you so quickly: they will only be getting snippets of you (whichever snippets you will want them to see). Same in reverse: so if you 'wear your heart on a sleeve' and the other person appears to be highly empathetic, but then turns out not to be so much later on, when they settled down or got bored with you, you will have exposed and caused yourself a HUGE amount of pain unnecessarily.
> Trust is earned (over time), not just given. The longer the time period, the more secure and 'real' that trust becomes. (IMO)


----------



## sokillme

inmyprime said:


> Btw, I meant love being 'the same', i.e. as strong, as unconditional. I think I refer here to the Dawkin's (Selfish Gene) definitions that explains it well, on a genetic level (probably one of the best 'relationships' books ever written
> 
> There is something to be said about some men wanting a mother figure and some women having a 'daddy' complex, but I think that's not what I was referring to.


I understand I wasn't trying to add to your point so much as when you pointed out the difference between motherly love and love for husband it struck me that some men actually are looking for their wives to love them like their mothers would and treat them as such. 

This is interesting as the point has been made that wives who have a desire for a father figure have trouble with empathy, maybe kind of the flip side would be husbands who want wives to treat them like mothers expect way too much empathy and are emotionally needy. Not to mention require way to much nurturing. 

So you could say both are emotionally undeveloped and have unrealistic expectations for their marriage and specifically what their spouse should provide for them.


----------



## 269370

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I don't agree with this approach whole heartedly although I do understand what you are saying. Granted, I've been out of the dating game for nearly 20 years, but if I were to ever return (I sure hope not) I would probably be as honest and upfront as possible as to what I'm looking for and what my intentions are right off the bat. Get it out of the way asap. If she walks, so be it. No sense in wasting each others time. I would also think this would help her as much as me. You can still have a fun date even if you know its not going to go anywhere right off the bat. Shake hands and say good luck and move on. Or if our goals and intentions work for one another, and the date goes well, we can move forward and see where it goes.


I don't mean that one should set out to be 'dishonest' or misleading at first at all: I just think that there's a a ton of BS that goes on on first dates, whether intentionally or unintentionally, and people often end up not being as they say they are at first. I think that just happens automatically and whenever we want to impress someone or when the hormones take over.

Thats' also not deliberate: I think people see themselves a certain way, but it is not a guarantee that they ARE this way (if you know what I mean). Sometimes it takes A LOT of time to actually identify yourself who you truly are, YEARS into a relationship/marriage. (Sometimes you don't even like how you have identified, years down the line, and become miserable or want 'out' but that's another topic).

The proof of this is this forum (unfortunately). Too many disappointments. And if one thinks that they can honestly 'dissect' and eliminate the 'problem' partners from the first few dates, one is possibly naive. Up to a point, yes, it's possible to eliminate the obvious, but if someone isn't opening up 'all of themselves' immediately, it is not necessarily a sign that they will not do so later in the relationship. To me, that was in fact a sign that that trust (once the access to it is granted) will be more meaningful down the line. That was certainly the case in my marriage. I feel I still have to work/fight hard to keep this trust, 20 years after knowing each other.

On the other hand, I also don't believe 'bait and switch' happens intentionally either (mostly). But that's another subject.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I don't agree with this approach whole heartedly although I do understand what you are saying. Granted, I've been out of the dating game for nearly 20 years, but if I were to ever return (I sure hope not) I would probably be as honest and upfront as possible as to what I'm looking for and what my intentions are right off the bat. Get it out of the way asap. If she walks, so be it. No sense in wasting each others time. I would also think this would help her as much as me. You can still have a fun date even if you know its not going to go anywhere right off the bat. Shake hands and say good luck and move on. Or if our goals and intentions work for one another, and the date goes well, we can move forward and see where it goes.


I have been divorced for 2 years now. Although I did not enjoy getting divorced, once the shock wore off a bit, I loved getting back into dating. Dating is fun! Meeting people, even if it never goes anywhere, is fun. Feeling that little bit of hopeful anticipation before a first date is fun. Getting a first kiss is fun. Learning new things because of the people you meet is fun.

I'm very open and engaging and easygoing and fun to talk to. Every date I've ever had was fun, because I make it fun for myself.

I ask questions and also am ready to answer most any question. The back and forth questions are the fun part. Where are you from? What's your story? What do you believe in? What do you love to do? What is your family like? And then the more personal stuff...what kind of relationships have you had? What kind of lover are you? Are you kinky? No? Ok well are you willing to learn? (lol)

The questions a man asks me are always interesting and fun, too. All the important stuff like "what are you looking for" has to get discussed immediately because if he's looking for marriage and I'm just looking for a boyfriend, there's no need to have future dates, but it's still nice to meet someone and have a chat.

Either we click or we don't, but I've never had a date be uncomfortable about my questions or openness. Or at least even if they were, they answered all my questions happily and seemed engaged and interested. I have revealed things to some guys after only a few dates that they said they were shocked about, that they were surprised I would share something like that. My stance is: I have nothing to be ashamed of. I have quite an um, "interesting" past and for some guys, it could scare them off, other guys, it is not a big deal. So if my past is going to scare someone off, I'd rather do that right away versus later, and it won't hurt my feelings, I will respect that my past is too shocking for them. I would prefer people do this with me, too. For instance if you have an ex who is stalking you, please let me know now and not find out later when she shows up on one of our dates to club me in the knee or something.

The relationship I just ended was on and off for over a year. After a little breather, I look forward to getting back out there again.


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## Holdingontoit

wild jade said:


> That said, the impression I'm getting, FWIW, is that certain sorts of dynamics actually give a pretty strong indicator of whether a woman will be open to her man's weaknesses and vulnerabilities. A woman who is looking to her man to provide her with a "safe harbor", for example, is going to be a whole lot less tolerant of weakness than a woman who is more self-sufficient.


Perhaps not as easy to distinguish as you might imagine. I dumped the woman with the MBA who lived at home with her parents in favor of the woman with a BA but no advanced degrees who worked at a very prestigious job, lived on her own, paid her own rent, etc. She helped pay for the apartment we shared when we were engaged but not yet married. I still wound up with a wife who had zero tolerance for my weakness from the day we got married right up until we stopped having sex.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Holdingontoit said:


> Perhaps not as easy to distinguish as you might imagine. I dumped the woman with the MBA who lived at home with her parents in favor of the woman with a BA but no advanced degrees who worked at a very prestigious job, lived on her own, paid her own rent, etc. She helped pay for the apartment we shared when we were engaged but not yet married. I still wound up with a wife who had zero tolerance for my weakness from the day we got married right up until we stopped having sex.


I would send you back to my post on "Do you really know the person you're with"

I call it "cracking the code"

Once you do crack it, you don't get surprised.

That gives you very very little tolerance for bad behavior. It's a blessing to be able to spot it right away and not accept any bull**** excuses for it.

Do you know anything about your wife's family of origin or her experiences when she was young?


----------



## DTO

I'm glad you are happy in the relationship. But I have to wonder why cracking this nut was so important to you? Honestly, it sounds like you had to make that relationship work to feel good about yourself, and that's not healthy.

I'm not talking out of my ass. My ex had serious issues as a kid - mentally ill father, mother who could/would not pick up the slack, spent high school in foster care. And there was some outright abuse as well. She proposed to me after a couple of years of dating. I loved but wouldn't marry her unless the sex improved. She then told me he would open up with that commitment, and I believed her; the reality is she lied to get her way (she eventually admitted this). I get it was idiotic, but I was young and naive.

Unsurprisingly, her awakening never happened and her issues impacted all areas of our life. Eventually, I lost all attraction to her and just was waiting to get my ducks in a row before I left. To feel good about that mindset I had to grow to where I accepted her problems were not mine. I could empathize with her and still expect her to fully-function as a wife and provide what she promised; I could also walk away and not feel like I had failed.

To your point below, I learned that knowing the other person is not as important as having good boundaries and enforcing them. If my partner crosses my boundaries repeatedly, I'm out - it's that simple. I don't feel like I have to make it work. I won't do power struggles or be made to feel like my needs and perspectives are inconvenient.



ReturntoZero said:


> This is worth mentioning. Because it's do damned important. Do you really "know" the other person?
> 
> I KNOW my wife was an abuse victim as a young child. I KNOW she thinks her adoptive parents didn't love her.
> 
> What does that mean for me?
> 
> Well, it PREDISPOSES her to a lack of empathy. It's very very simple for her to take the victim chair and compare the intense pain and suffering of her youth with anyone else's problems - including mine. This basically sets the table for her to judge my feelings.
> 
> Does that feel like a lack of empathy? What do you think? It feels like it because it IS.
> 
> I realized that whatever she "said" she was like, she really wasn't the slightest bit self-aware.
> 
> Of course, I'd see the empathy and care poured out in boatloads to her own kids... but that's a different thread. Our personalities all have different parts and the part I got was "cold hearted *****".
> 
> I had two choices. Grow up, learn how to win this power struggle or get out. Of course, had I listened to the chorus on TAM, we'd be divorced. 3 year separations almost never end well. But, I realized she was on this earth to teach me. I wanted to learn what I didn't understand and once I "got it", I could see her clearly.
> 
> I don't expect things she's unable to give and I rejoice in the merry laughter, quick wit, white hot sex, and systems-oriented brainpower.
> 
> Disrespect? Nope. Won't tolerate that for one minute. So, we still have the occasional intense stand-off.
> 
> My road to recovery started when I realized initiating sex when being treated like crap was a "thank you" for dumping on me.
> 
> Knowing this woman has been my greatest project and my greatest accomplishment - and has fostered my greatest personal growth.
> 
> The word "spouse" in Hebrew means "adversary". I'd say the ancient Jews were pretty smart.


----------



## chillymorn69

DTO said:


> I'm glad you are happy in the relationship. But I have to wonder why cracking this nut was so important to you? Honestly, it sounds you had to make that relationship work to feel good about yourself, and that's not healthy.
> 
> I'm not talking out of my ass. My ex had serious issues as a kid - mentally ill father, mother who could/would not pick up the slack, went into foster care until adulthood. And there was some outright abuse as well. Long story short my ex (then-gf) proposed to me after a couple of years of dating. I loved her but wouldn't marry her unless the sex improved. She then told me that she would open up with that commitment, and I took her at her word; the reality is she wanted stability and lied to get her way. I get it was idiotic, but I was young and naive.
> 
> Unsurprisingly, her awakening never happened and her issues impacted all areas of our life. Eventually, I lost all attraction to her and just was waiting to get my ducks in a row before I left. To feel good about that mindset I had to grow to where I accepted her problems were not mine. I could empathize with her and still expect her to fully-function as a wife and provide what she promised; I could also walk away and not feel like I had failed.
> 
> To your point below, I learned that knowing the other person is not as important as having good boundaries and enforcing them. If my partner crosses my boundaries repeatedly, I'm out - it's that simple. I don't feel like I have to make it work. I won't be sexless, do power struggles, or made to feel like my feelings are inconvenient.


Its hard to come to this conclusion. But its spot on!


----------



## Mr The Other

Holdingontoit said:


> Exactly. My wife got worried that I might see a prostitute since, well, we aren't having any sex and I sometimes do happy hour with a guy who does go to strip clubs and get lap dances. I told her not to worry, I am a cheapskate who would never pay for a lap dance, and also I did have sex with a prostitute once decades ago and didn't enjoy it and felt disgusted with myself after. So she has nothing to worry about, since I would never do that.
> 
> She complained that I did not say "honey, I love you too much to ever do that to you". I replied "well, I do love you and I would never do that to you but frankly you would be foolish to rely on that since I would say that whether it is true or not and I could by lying through my teeth, but my saying I am too cheap and ashamed to go to a hooker is a lot more reliable since you know darn well I AM cheap and that all my behavior is shame-based." Talk is cheap. Watch what they do. My behavior over decades shows that I never spend big money on myself. $650 for one hour in a private room at a NYC strip club? Heck, for that kind of money I could buy a Xbox One X and a couple of games and be entertained for hundreds of hours. Anyone who knows me knows that if I were in the mood to treat myself to a luxury item, the strip club has no chance of winning out over the Xbox One.


I like that you found out the price though


----------



## wild jade

Holdingontoit said:


> Perhaps not as easy to distinguish as you might imagine. I dumped the woman with the MBA who lived at home with her parents in favor of the woman with a BA but no advanced degrees who worked at a very prestigious job, lived on her own, paid her own rent, etc. She helped pay for the apartment we shared when we were engaged but not yet married. I still wound up with a wife who had zero tolerance for my weakness from the day we got married right up until we stopped having sex.


Your wife is a victim of sexual abuse, though, isn't she? That's a game changer!

There's a very big difference between self-sufficiency and defensive walls. And there's also a big difference between financial self-sufficiency and emotional self-sufficiency. 

That's the problem with checklists and "looks good on paper" inventories to determine suitable mates. Some of the biggest *******s I've know look good on paper and can easily pass basic "treats the waiter well" indicators. Some of the most anxious, hurt and fearful ones have developed a tough and capable persona to protect themselves.

You're right, though, that sometimes it can be hard to tell the difference, especially in the beginning. When I met my husband I had a mix of real self-sufficiency and defensive walls. How he saw through the latter and still managed to love me is still a bit of a mystery to me.


----------



## DTO

After reading my prior post, I wanted to note that I'm not some unfeeling jerk who doesn't care about how traumatic this stuff can be. I get how abuse can cause one to avoid intimacy, and how growing up without stability (severe money issues, inadequate parental involvement, etc.) can make someone chase that rather than romantic attraction in a relationship. And I genuinely feel bad for people who are in those situations or dealing with the fallout.

But that's not the same as allowing someone to co-victimize and extract some sort of reparations from me for past sins committed by someone else. The ex had three good options: (1) be honest about her abilities so that I could have made an informed decision (yes I would have left her, TBH); (2) make good on the promises she made; and (3) simply accept that she had serious issues and not pursue a relationship she could not handle.

At the end of the day, while some women do lack empathy for men, there really isn't a good reason for men to accept an ongoing environment where their own feelings matter less than that of their partners. This is about as absolute a truth as there is in relationships - no one party is predominant over the other.



DTO said:


> I'm glad you are happy in the relationship. But I have to wonder why cracking this nut was so important to you? Honestly, it sounds like you had to make that relationship work to feel good about yourself, and that's not healthy.
> 
> I'm not talking out of my ass. My ex had serious issues as a kid - mentally ill father, mother who could/would not pick up the slack, spent high school in foster care. And there was some outright abuse as well. She proposed to me after a couple of years of dating. I loved but wouldn't marry her unless the sex improved. She then told me he would open up with that commitment, and I believed her; the reality is she lied to get her way (she eventually admitted this). I get it was idiotic, but I was young and naive.
> 
> Unsurprisingly, her awakening never happened and her issues impacted all areas of our life. Eventually, I lost all attraction to her and just was waiting to get my ducks in a row before I left. To feel good about that mindset I had to grow to where I accepted her problems were not mine. I could empathize with her and still expect her to fully-function as a wife and provide what she promised; I could also walk away and not feel like I had failed.
> 
> To your point below, I learned that knowing the other person is not as important as having good boundaries and enforcing them. If my partner crosses my boundaries repeatedly, I'm out - it's that simple. I don't feel like I have to make it work. I won't do power struggles or be made to feel like my needs and perspectives are inconvenient.


----------



## Faithful Wife

alte Dame said:


> I haven't read through all the replies here, so apologies at the outset.
> 
> That being said.....
> 
> I think I generally lacked empathy for men because I experienced them in the power position and thought that, relatively speaking, they really had little to complain about compared to me. (And please remember that I am in an older generation in which when little girls were asked what they wanted to be when they grew up, the most common answer was 'a bride.')
> 
> Then I had a son and my eyes were suddenly opened. I could see a man's world a bit through the lens of that little boy whom I loved so unconditionally.
> 
> That, I think, was the start of empathy for me for men. It's taken me a long time to feel it for my H, who is a pretty typical successful alpha guy, but feel it I do.
> 
> So, for me the difference in power created a lack of identification with the male experience and thus a lack of empathy.


Thank you for your thoughts. This makes sense to me intellectually.

But emotionally, I guess I have never seen the amount of power someone had or didn't have as a reason for me to have or not have empathy for them. Any person, no matter how powerful, can and will have trials and tribulations (and trauma, tragedy, big or small), and therefore deserves empathy for those times, regardless of their strength or power. 

This is why these stories by men here about their women moving away from them emotionally after they cried at a funeral for a close relative are so shocking to me. The men who have reported this are likely emotionally and otherwise very strong. And yet who in the world should be expected to have "strength" in a moment like that? There are moments in life when any person, no matter who they are, will be cut to their knees by an unexpected tragedy. And I feel it is absolutely inhumane for anyone to expect another person to appear unaffected by such life events. 

And further to have a complete loss of sexual attraction for a man at those moments and the moments immediately after BECAUSE the man actually behaved human for a few minutes is so foreign to me that I simply can't fathom it.

Wish I could give a big nurturing hug (as an empathetic friend) to any man who has experienced that.


----------



## ReturntoZero

DTO said:


> I'm glad you are happy in the relationship. But I have to wonder why cracking this nut was so important to you? Honestly, it sounds like you had to make that relationship work to feel good about yourself, and that's not healthy.
> 
> I'm not talking out of my ass. My ex had serious issues as a kid - mentally ill father, mother who could/would not pick up the slack, spent high school in foster care. And there was some outright abuse as well. She proposed to me after a couple of years of dating. I loved but wouldn't marry her unless the sex improved. She then told me he would open up with that commitment, and I believed her; the reality is she lied to get her way (she eventually admitted this). I get it was idiotic, but I was young and naive.
> 
> Unsurprisingly, her awakening never happened and her issues impacted all areas of our life. Eventually, I lost all attraction to her and just was waiting to get my ducks in a row before I left. To feel good about that mindset I had to grow to where I accepted her problems were not mine. I could empathize with her and still expect her to fully-function as a wife and provide what she promised; I could also walk away and not feel like I had failed.
> 
> To your point below, I learned that knowing the other person is not as important as having good boundaries and enforcing them. If my partner crosses my boundaries repeatedly, I'm out - it's that simple. I don't feel like I have to make it work. I won't do power struggles or be made to feel like my needs and perspectives are inconvenient.


Our sex life has always been white hot.

There are some things that I don't bet on... have to see it in action.

Sex is the #1 need for a man. Anyone who trusts in "future better sex" would be better off trusting politicians on future spending cuts.


----------



## inging

"I don't want to make any huge generalisations about women, I'm not here to do that, it's — it's vulgar. 
But all I'll say is that they have no feelings. 
Because it's actually men, you'll find, who are the far more romantic. 
Men are the people you will hear say, "I've found somebody. She's amazing. If I don't get to be with this person, I'm fcked. I can't carry on, no, I mean it, she's totally transformed my life. 
I have a job, 
I have a flat, it means nothing. I can't stand it, I have to be with her. Because if I don't, I'm going to end up in some bedsit, I'll be alcoholic, I'll have itchy trousers. I can't — I can't walk the streets any more." That is how women feel about shoes."
Dylan Moran


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

So when I was about to turn 14, two days before my birthday, my step dad committed suicide in my backyard. He sexually abused my sister. When found out and faced with jail time, he shot himself with a shotgun right outside our back door. I remember my dad was picking me up to go play golf that morning. My mom had some people coming over for other business that day and put a sign on our door saying something to the effect of "due to family tragedy, we will not be available today." Of course my dad read that and asked me what happened. I told him. He asked if I still wanted to go, I said of course. 

Of course the whole golf outing my dad kept looking sideways over at me. Trying to see what I was thinking and asking me if everything is ok. I just said, "yeah, I'm fine. Lets just focus on our round." Truth be told I was probably numb. I got enrolled by my parents in an after school therapy program. I went once, skipped the rest and told them I was still going. I don't need anyone to help me cope. I think I became rather hardened by that experience. I learned how to shell up. I learned it well. 

I talked with my mom about this only 5 years ago via email in a particularly rough patch in my marriage. My grandmother was staying with us at the time of the event. My mom had made some chicken dish I can't recall. Then sort of left stuff out to clean up later. We were all tired, my step dad had already been kicked out of the house by then. I didnt have any idea why at the time. That is why my grandmother was staying with us, for support for my mom. We had a sliding glass door in that house. We used to be the type who never locked our doors. Typical for the time period really. Well we were all tired. My grandma locked up everything. She even put a stick down on the track of the sliding glass door as an extra precaution. Something we never did. Well just before bed my mom was cleaning the kitchen. She had some chicken bones left over and went to toss them outside for our dog. She says she remembers being so tired that when the stick blocked the door from opening, she just said forget it and threw the bones in the trash instead of opening the back door. She then went to bed and not five minutes later she heard the shot. 

She believes if my grandma hadn't put that stick there, she would have been shot and killed throwing those chicken bones to the dogs. Who knows, he could have even come inside and did a nice neat job with the whole family. And this post might not exist today. Young dude would have been just another statistic, not even knowing why or how or what was going on. 

When I was young, we were always broke. I hated it. For religious reasons I was in private school. My mom could barely afford it. When my stepdad killed himself, she was even worse off. I remember one time walking home from school with my friends from the bus stop. There was a box of canned goods and food from meals on wheels. I was so embarrassed. So ashamed. My friends didn't seem to care, they thought it was cool to see all this stuff. I was beside myself with shame and guilt. 

Fast forward to a couple years ago. My wife and I are having an agurment about my inability to open up. About how I can't ever voice my feelings. How I shell up when I am upset About how I can't ever accept any sort of assistance from anyone, not even her. 

Well I ended up opening up. I told her about everything. Everything I know or have been through and why I shell up, why I don't accept any help from anyone. Why I'm such a solo type person. Why I love nothing more than a solo backpacking trip. Why I am who I am today and what makes me the way I am and what I think caused every sort of emotional blocking tactic. Every sort of "I don't need anyone's help" mentality. I will do it myself, or struggle and drown, but I certainly won't accept anyone's life raft in the rough waters of life. Any line cast out to keep me alive, I will swim away from.

The end result being my wife did withdraw a bit. She has never pressed me to be more open. She felt uncomfortable with it all. I broke down, I showed her something that night she had never seen. Mind you, we have been together for a long time. Almost 18 years. She never knew any of this other than he killed himself. After so long, I know her, I know what she felt. Uncomfortable to the point where she was for sure turned off by my opening up. We were having other issues at the time. But I have no doubt she pulled away even further because of my vulnerabilities that I laid out on the line to fully explain myself. 

This is the price men pay. Not always and with every woman. But it is a huge risk show any weakness to those not accustomed to seeing it. Even to other men. I couldn't tell that story to anyone I know to their face and expect anything but a bit of pulling away from me. I don't know what that says about people and society. The only thing I can take away from that is men really aren't allowed to show that side without expecting some sort of negative backlash from it all. Or even worse, you get pitty. Which in my opinion is even worse then a sexual withdraw from your own wife.


----------



## Buddy400

TheDudeLebowski said:


> This is the price men pay.


For the most part, men accept it willingly.

Someone has to hold down the fort. Someone has to be the emotional rock.

It has some benefit for women and society even though it's less necessary than it used to be.

I'm the emotional rock for my family, I provide stability for my wife and kids.

At work, my job is to stay calm and collected and make the right decisions when the **** hits the fan.

I don't need anybody to pat me on the back. 

But, I would prefer it if people wouldn't call what I do "toxic masculinity".


----------



## Not

Dude- when I see someone, man or woman, exposing such obvious inner pain like yours I don’t say a word, I don’t move because the feelings are that intense. To say anything would be such an intrusion to me. To reach out physically would feel like an intrusion. Without a clear invitation for response I would not feel confident that a response would be welcome. With experiences that hold that much power and energy I would honestly feel helpless and totally inadequate. Those experiences can swallow up the listener too.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Buddy400 said:


> But, I would prefer it if people wouldn't call what I do "toxic masculinity".


Amen brother. Amen.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Not said:


> Dude- when I see someone, man or woman, exposing such obvious inner pain like yours I don’t say a word, I don’t move because the feelings are that intense. To say anything would be such an intrusion to me. To reach out physically would feel like an intrusion. Without a clear invitation for response I would not feel confident that a response would be welcome. With experiences that hold that much power and energy I would honestly feel helpless and totally inadequate. Those experiences can swallow up the listener too.


Point taken. I think the difference being we don't know each other. At the time a 16 year romantic relationship where my emotional vulnerability is constantly called into question, maybe a little bit different. Perhaps not.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Also to point out that someone that is as calm about things and as easy going as I am. I guess I would have hoped for a little more comforting response from someone I would share that with where i have never shared those stories before. Outside of an anonymous forum obviously. But those who know me know I shell up. I don't let anyone inside my own head with me. So when I do, to get withdrawl and silence, it is disheartening. I guess seeing someone like me open myself up to such extremes causes a response I wish I didn't get. A response I wasn't hoping for. Perhaps im a little too hard on those people. But it also validates my feelings that I shouldn't share what is bothering me. I just need to keep it inside where it belongs.


----------



## WildMustang

TheDudeLebowski said:


> After so long, I know her, I know what she felt. Uncomfortable to the point where she was for sure turned off by my opening up. We were having other issues at the time. But I have no doubt she pulled away even further because of my vulnerabilities that I laid out on the line to fully explain myself.


You say you know how she felt. How do you know? Did your wife actually tell you that she was turned off by your opening up???

Did she actually tell you that the reason she was pulling away because of the vulnerabilities you laid out to explain yourself???

It is normal human behavior, when we are trying to make sense of something, to listen to and believe the tapes that play in our head, which may or may not be accurate and true. 

Is it possible that she finally understood and had a moment of "OMG, now I get it. Makes perfect sense why Dude doesn't open up much...I won't make it worse by asking a bunch of questions as it is just too traumatic for him."

Or is it possible, that it was too much trauma for her to handle, and she also shut down and closed up just as you did, even though it didn't even happen to her, it happened to you and you just assumed her shutting down meant she was turned off and that's why she pulled away?

I just know it is impossible to know what someone is thinking unless they tell you what they are thinking, and to assign thoughts to someone can be problematic.

Please know that I mean no disrespect in suggesting this could be another explanation.

I am truly sorry you experienced this. Hard for anyone, especially a soon to be 14 year old kid.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Point taken. I think the difference being we don't know each other. At the time a 16 year romantic relationship where my emotional vulnerability is constantly called into question, maybe a little bit different. Perhaps not.


All of this is still so different from my experience it is so sad and strange to me.

I've had 3 significant men in my life and all 3 of them have shared their most painful moments with me and I was just there for them, touching them gently and listening completely. When they were done talking I held them and understood them that much more. I never lost any attraction to them, my attraction actually grew because I now understood more about their journey and hardships.


----------



## Handy

* Wildmustang
Is it possible that she finally understood and had a moment of "OMG, now I get it. Makes perfect sense why Dude doesn't open up much...I won't make it worse by asking a bunch of questions as it is just too traumatic for him."*

Dude, I am also sorry you experienced the many tragedies your stepfather brought on the whole family. I also experienced the no money thing and food shortages. 

Like you and other males I was taught to fake it / don't ask for help or show what some people might call weakness. The difficult part was the time frame. I thought if I worked harder things would be OK, it was the time line that got to me. People generally want "better" to come sooner than I could make it happen. Not showing vulnerability was one way to relieve the pressure of making "better" happen ASAP because if it looked like I had things under control, then there was less outside pressure for what appeared to be the immediate problem.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

I know because we know each other better than we know ourselves. Cliche I know, but it is the absolute truth. We know what each other is thinking like we know the time of day. Like how when you forget to set your alarm for the morning and your brain wakes you up just in time anyway. Because it knows the time subconsciously. We know each other at a subconscious level. This spans well beyond feelings of knowing. You can sense things without looking for them, or being aware that you are doing it even. A product of growing up together through the most difficult times of adulthood. 

This example I have given is an extreme case, maybe too extreme to make a valid point with some of you. However it is the same type of experience I have felt and received at any point I've broken through a wall I've placed to allow someone in. The result is a pulling away. A closed off attitude, body language, or overall demeanor towards myself. A sort of uncomfortable disagreement with my assessment of the situation I'm facing or have faced in the past. Or a sheer lack of words or emotional response to my vulnerabilities on full display. A deafening silence. 

What then is the point of opening up? It only makes me feel guilty for placing that burden on another. 

When I see women open up, there is an emotional response to their pain. Hugs, words of encouragement, emotional support at every level. This is a palatable experience by the women sharing, and the men and women listening and offering their support. 

It is quite a different experience for a man. At least this man.


----------



## WildMustang

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I know because we know each other better than we know ourselves. Cliche I know, but it is the absolute truth. We know what each other is thinking like we know the time of day. Like how when you forget to set your alarm for the morning and your brain wakes you up just in time anyway. Because it knows the time subconsciously. We know each other at a subconscious level. This spans well beyond feelings of knowing. You can sense things without looking for them, or being aware that you are doing it even. A product of growing up together through the most difficult times of adulthood.
> 
> This example I have given is an extreme case, maybe too extreme to make a valid point with some of you. However it is the same type of experience I have felt and received at any point I've broken through a wall I've placed to allow someone in. The result is a pulling away. A closed off attitude, body language, or overall demeanor towards myself. A sort of uncomfortable disagreement with my assessment of the situation I'm facing or have faced in the past. Or a sheer lack of words or emotional response to my vulnerabilities on full display. A deafening silence.
> 
> What then is the point of opening up? It only makes me feel guilty for placing that burden on another.
> 
> When I see women open up, there is an emotional response to their pain. Hugs, words of encouragement, emotional support at every level. This is a palatable experience by the women sharing, and the men and women listening and offering their support.
> 
> It is quite a different experience for a man. At least this man.


It sounds like it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. 

That you think you know what she is thinking (I don't believe in the ability to read minds regardless of how long you have known someone or how close you are) so you predict her behavior (her pulling away) because you expect that behavior to come true, which then affects your behavior (shutting down and closing up), which causes your expectation to come true (her pulling away).

That's my take on it, FWIW. Of course, I could be wrong...


----------



## DTO

Faithful Wife said:


> All of this is still so different from my experience it is so sad and strange to me.


It is quite sad. I think the guys here are spot on with the theory that - for women inclined to lack empathy - a man's job is to make sure business gets handled with zero drama. It's a crappy double-standard. I knew it happened, but I thought only the worst women did it; I did not realize it was so common.

I remember back in 2007 when I lost my son to cancer. Two weeks later, my grandfather passed as well. So the funerals were on consecutive Saturdays, and a few days later she's telling me to suck it up and move on. It was okay for her to be vulnerable and need support, but not me. It was okay for her to take extended time off (she went over six months before going back to work) but I needed to be back after a couple of weeks.

Luckily, I know this isn't all women. The good ones will support you through the tough times.


----------



## 269370

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Well I ended up opening up. I told her about everything. Everything I know or have been through and why I shell up, why I don't accept any help from anyone. Why I'm such a solo type person. Why I love nothing more than a solo backpacking trip. Why I am who I am today and what makes me the way I am and what I think caused every sort of emotional blocking tactic. Every sort of "I don't need anyone's help" mentality. I will do it myself, or struggle and drown, but I certainly won't accept anyone's life raft in the rough waters of life. *Any line cast out to keep me alive, I will swim away from.*


So if your wife *did* show strong empathy at that moment, would you not have taken it as a 'line cast out to you' (which you normally 'swim away from'), or worse, mistaken it for pity? I mean, which reaction would have been 'appropriate' from her, in your mind?

Is it possible some men are just as uncomfortable in the 'being vulnerable' role as women are, when expected to be empathetic with such men?

To me, it's not entirely clear whether it's the chicken or the egg first: it could be that men build the insecurity up in their minds, after opening up, that their partner is being more distant, because in the moment of vulnerability, they feel more...well...vulnerable, and any reaction from partner is therefore easier to misconstrue.

Just an alternative possibility. I am beginning to sense that this issue of women 'rejecting' their husbands in their moment of vulnerability could be taken out of proportion. (Not referring to your case but in general). The missing piece of the puzzle that's not being discussed so much here is that a man (or any person) is much more likely to over-react, after showing vulnerability/weakness while the wife is trying to emphasise with them.


----------



## msrv23

I can only talk about my experience but I used to have a lot of empathy for my husband. I’ve always been good at listening and empathizing anyways. But my husband always sucked at it and since the beginning that he had hurt me whenever ai showed vulnerability and needed his support or at least understanding.

Empathizing doesn’t mean agreeing with, it means validating and understanding our feelings. For example we might not agree with how the other handles things but at least we can understand why they feel what they feel.

But I rarely got empathy from my husband. Even when our child was born and I told him how tired I was, he could be good at saying the wrong things just because he couldn’t understand or know what I’ve been through.

By time, of course our emotional connection was barely there.

Resentment grew and the more it grew, the less empathy I had for him. He always took it for granted because the moment it disappeared he accused me of never being understanding, even thought it has been there a lot more.
But I do believe that he genuinely believes so because he never really was aware of our relationship dynamics, never made enough effort to reflect on it. Because every time I told him about it, he would invalidate and sweep it under the rug.

So this is how my empathy lowered a lot towards him. Resentment. We are going through counseling for a while.


----------



## NobodySpecial

msrv23 said:


> I can only talk about my experience but I used to have a lot of empathy for my husband. I’ve always been good at listening and empathizing anyways. But my husband always sucked at it and since the beginning that he had hurt me whenever ai showed vulnerability and needed his support or at least understanding.
> 
> Empathizing doesn’t mean agreeing with, it means validating and understanding our feelings. For example we might not agree with how the other handles things but at least we can understand why they feel what they feel.
> 
> But I rarely got empathy from my husband. Even when our child was born and I told him how tired I was, he could be good at saying the wrong things just *because he couldn’t understand or know what I’ve been through*.


DH and I have had conversations about this over the years. He has asked me what I want him to do when he DOESN'T understand? Do I want to keep trying to explain it so does? Clearly I don't want him to lie and say he does understand since later actions will demonstrate he does not, and that will hurt more. We finally repeating back to me to at least try to get the words right. That effort alone seams to go a long way.



> By time, of course our emotional connection was barely there.
> 
> Resentment grew and the more it grew, the less empathy I had for him. He always took it for granted because the moment it disappeared he accused me of never being understanding, even thought it has been there a lot more.
> But I do believe that he genuinely believes so because he never really was aware of our relationship dynamics, never made enough effort to reflect on it. Because every time I told him about it, he would invalidate and sweep it under the rug.
> 
> So this is how my empathy lowered a lot towards him. Resentment. We are going through counseling for a while.


----------



## tech-novelist

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Fast forward to a couple years ago. *My wife and I are having an argument about my inability to open up. About how I can't ever voice my feelings. How I shell up when I am upset About how I can't ever accept any sort of assistance from anyone, not even her. *
> 
> Well I ended up opening up. I told her about everything. Everything I know or have been through and why I shell up, why I don't accept any help from anyone. Why I'm such a solo type person. Why I love nothing more than a solo backpacking trip. Why I am who I am today and what makes me the way I am and what I think caused every sort of emotional blocking tactic. Every sort of "I don't need anyone's help" mentality. I will do it myself, or struggle and drown, but I certainly won't accept anyone's life raft in the rough waters of life. Any line cast out to keep me alive, I will swim away from.
> 
> The end result being my wife did withdraw a bit. *She has never pressed me to be more open. She felt uncomfortable with it all. *I broke down, I showed her something that night she had never seen. Mind you, we have been together for a long time. Almost 18 years. She never knew any of this other than he killed himself. After so long, I know her, I know what she felt. Uncomfortable to the point where she was for sure turned off by my opening up. We were having other issues at the time. But I have no doubt she pulled away even further because of my vulnerabilities that I laid out on the line to fully explain myself.


These two statements appear to be contradictory. How can you have an argument about not opening up when she has never pressed you to be more open?


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

tech-novelist said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fast forward to a couple years ago. *My wife and I are having an argument about my inability to open up. About how I can't ever voice my feelings. How I shell up when I am upset About how I can't ever accept any sort of assistance from anyone, not even her. *
> 
> Well I ended up opening up. I told her about everything. Everything I know or have been through and why I shell up, why I don't accept any help from anyone. Why I'm such a solo type person. Why I love nothing more than a solo backpacking trip. Why I am who I am today and what makes me the way I am and what I think caused every sort of emotional blocking tactic. Every sort of "I don't need anyone's help" mentality. I will do it myself, or struggle and drown, but I certainly won't accept anyone's life raft in the rough waters of life. Any line cast out to keep me alive, I will swim away from.
> 
> The end result being my wife did withdraw a bit. *She has never pressed me to be more open. She felt uncomfortable with it all. *I broke down, I showed her something that night she had never seen. Mind you, we have been together for a long time. Almost 18 years. She never knew any of this other than he killed himself. After so long, I know her, I know what she felt. Uncomfortable to the point where she was for sure turned off by my opening up. We were having other issues at the time. But I have no doubt she pulled away even further because of my vulnerabilities that I laid out on the line to fully explain myself.
> 
> 
> 
> These two statements appear to be contradictory. How can you have an argument about not opening up when she has never pressed you to be more open?
Click to expand...

The argument was about me not accepting her help and being open with my feelings. So I did. Then she withdrew and has never asked me to do the same again.


----------



## tech-novelist

TheDudeLebowski said:


> The argument was about me not accepting her help and being open with my feelings. So I did. Then she withdrew and has never asked me to do the same again.


Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## msrv23

NobodySpecial said:


> DH and I have had conversations about this over the years. He has asked me what I want him to do when he DOESN'T understand? Do I want to keep trying to explain it so does? Clearly I don't want him to lie and say he does understand since later actions will demonstrate he does not, and that will hurt more. We finally repeating back to me to at least try to get the words right. That effort alone seams to go a long way.


It’s not that ai needed him to understand it. But there is a difference between “I haven’t experienced this but it must be hard” and “how can it be hard if you’re home all day?”. One can be honest but still acknowledge what the other experiences.

Usually if I don’t understand about someone else’s situation I’d ask more about it and try to understand how the person is feeling. I would try to focus on being supportive and know that I don’t know it all so I can’t assume if something is easy for the other just because it sounds so. But then again, I’ve always had an easier time to be a good listener.
Yet I can see how my empathy is often hardly here now and it’s not good. Hopefully we can work it out in the next sessions.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Buddy400 said:


> But, I would prefer it if people wouldn't call what I do "toxic masculinity".


Most of that B.S. is part and parcel of a ridiculous political agenda that basically helps no one but the people promoting it.


----------



## ReturntoZero

WildMustang said:


> It sounds like it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.
> 
> That you think you know what she is thinking (I don't believe in the ability to read minds regardless of how long you have known someone or how close you are) so you predict her behavior (her pulling away) because you expect that behavior to come true, which then affects your behavior (shutting down and closing up), which causes your expectation to come true (her pulling away).
> 
> That's my take on it, FWIW. Of course, I could be wrong...


If your eyes are open and you watch the emotional responses, you learn what's acceptable and what isn't.

You then have a decision to make.

1) Do I decide that "somewhere someone" will actually support me in this manner? If they would/could do this, how would my life be different? Better yet, what are my chances of finding them and would I enjoy THEIR companionship as much as the current model?

2) Do I simply stop looking for this because "beating your head against the wall feels good when you stop"?


----------



## Laurentium

Buddy400 said:


> Someone has to hold down the fort. Someone has to be the emotional rock.
> 
> ...But, I would prefer it if people wouldn't call what I do "toxic masculinity".


My question about that is, "toxic to whom?"


----------



## ReturntoZero

Laurentium said:


> My question about that is, "toxic to whom?"


To those who wish to wield more political power.


----------



## DustyDog

WildMustang said:


> I am speaking only for myself. This is my opinion only.
> 
> I just want men to know it's okay to be real.
> 
> It's okay to be human.
> 
> You don't have to pretend you don't have vulnerabilities and emotions, because we all know you do.
> 
> This thread is titled, "Do women have empathy for men?"
> 
> I do.


I could be mixing up who wrote what here, but if you're the one who wrote that when a man expresses vulnerability, you are willing to "forgive" the "mistake". If you view vulnerability as a mistake, you are NOT expressing empathy.

Empathy is not "Oh, you showed vulnerability. It's OK, we all screw up."

Empathy is "Oh, you showed vulnerability. I know how you feel and I'm here for you."


----------



## DustyDog

WildMustang said:


> @DustyDog, Your quote from post #121:
> 
> "If you look up the uses of the two terms in the psychology lexicons out there, you will find that 'strong' and 'vulnerable' are seen as opposites...vulnerable and strong at the same time, as described by women who ask for it, is almost impossible..."
> 
> A more obvious example of the frequency in which men in particular, show vulnerability *at the same time* that they show strength, even dominance, is whenever a man initiates sex with his woman.
> 
> The man is pretty *vulnerable* in that scenario, no? And yet he *strongly *does it anyway, in spite of the rejection he may face. That is an example of strength, of dominance, while being vulnerable. That is sexy to me and to a lot of women.


The subject is not BEING vulnerable - it is EXPRESSING it that is the topic.

Men are vulnerable all the time. In initial contact, whoever asks the other person out is at risk of rejection. That's vulnerability. But he's not SHOWING it, he is expected to just "be strong". A man SHOWING vulnerability would actually say it, "I think you are so awesome that I am willing to risk rejection and the shame that comes of it to ask you out".

Men do all kinds of things that make them vulnerable. "Success" experts claim that you cannot make progress without risk and risk always entails vulnerability.

What has been forbidden from men for so long is telling their woman that they felt vulnerable. Just think about what happens if a guy comes home from work and says "I got a bad review today. I'm scared that I might get fired." John Gottman actually ran this test and found that in most cases (3/4, I think), the woman's response wasn't supportive to her man, rather it was accusatory and blaming him for all their money ills.

Empathy is not required when someone is doing something vulnerable, because basically everybody does that all day. Even cooking a meal, there's a certain vulnerability that the family won't like it. Empathy becomes needed when someone expresses that vulnerability.


----------



## DustyDog

WildMustang said:


> @DustyDog your quote - "vulnerable and strong at the same time, as described by women who ask for it, is almost impossible. The women I've known have in fact, not been capable of doing so - they even call themselves 'weak' when in their vulnerable moments."
> 
> I have also witnessed this dynamic, and I think, again, it is due to conditioning...we were all conditioned (perhaps with good intentions) to "keep a stiff upper lip", "don't cry", "keep it inside" etc and *MEN MORE SO **THAN WOMEN*, but I think people are starting to realize that these practices are not healthy.


Not when and where I grew up. I was in the public schools in the US in the 1960s and we were all told that emotions were normal and we should express them, and it's unhealthy for men or women to bottle them up.

But somewhere along the line, society up-ended itself and we started viewing Hollywood as a source of hero worship - and the 'strong' men in Hollywood show nothing and THOSE are the men that ordinary women hope to meet. And men, wanting to meet women, put on that false front. Or rather, many do, according to what I've read.



WildMustang said:


> I don't want or need men to "BE EMOTIONAL" if their natural personality is not to be emotional.


According to the latest studied in neuroscience, this is not a natural personality. Men who have good poker faces have heart attacks younger than their siblings who express. Neuroscientists have demonstrated that up to a certain age, girls and boys express identically, and if a boy (or girl) begins to not express...it's training. It's not natural. And it's not healty for either gender.

My ex is an example of a woman who, in childhood, observed her siblings being punished for expressing emotion, so she became a cold fish. She will never be happy because of this...she will never know what it's like to receive emotional support, since she never shows anything suggesting that she needs it. And she's depressed and miserable all the time.



WildMustang said:


> I don't want or need men to act like women and I am not asking them to.


When a man expresses his feelings about you to you, is that "acting like a woman"?

What is "acting like a woman?"



WildMustang said:


> I recognize the differences in men and women and I celebrate those differences!


You may be using Hollywood's model...



WildMustang said:


> *I just want men to feel the freedom as fellow human beings to be vulnerable and express their emotions if and when they do come up.* That's all.
> 
> It's a cruel cage we (society as a whole) have put men into to expect them to never show emotion, to never expose their vulnerability.
> 
> My God, men are not robots!


But if they don't act like robots, how do they know where the boundary is before people like you claim they're acting like women?


----------



## Janky

DustyDog said:


> Not when and where I grew up. I was in the public schools in the US in the 1960s and we were all told that emotions were normal and we should express them, and it's unhealthy for men or women to bottle them up.
> 
> But somewhere along the line, society up-ended itself and we started viewing Hollywood as a source of hero worship - and the 'strong' men in Hollywood show nothing and THOSE are the men that ordinary women hope to meet. And men, wanting to meet women, put on that false front. Or rather, many do, according to what I've read.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the latest studied in neuroscience, this is not a natural personality. Men who have good poker faces have heart attacks younger than their siblings who express. Neuroscientists have demonstrated that up to a certain age, girls and boys express identically, and if a boy (or girl) begins to not express...it's training. It's not natural. And it's not healty for either gender.
> 
> My ex is an example of a woman who, in childhood, observed her siblings being punished for expressing emotion, so she became a cold fish. She will never be happy because of this...she will never know what it's like to receive emotional support, since she never shows anything suggesting that she needs it. And she's depressed and miserable all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> When a man expresses his feelings about you to you, is that "acting like a woman"?
> 
> What is "acting like a woman?"
> 
> 
> 
> You may be using Hollywood's model...
> 
> 
> 
> But if they don't act like robots, how do they know where the boundary is before people like you claim they're acting like women?




Wtf? When did men start acting like this? My god! 

Act like a man, take charge even when you think you are wrong.

Express your feelings and bs to your guy friends, that's what we do.

Act weak, emotional, etc, expect to be treated like so.

Its not wrong or bad, its who we are.


----------



## WildMustang

@DustyDog

You are indeed confusing some of my posts with posts made by others, such as:

"When a man expresses vulnerability, I am willing to "forgive" the "mistake." 

I never said that.

I also never said, "If a man expresses his feelings about me to me, he is acting like a woman."

You are twisting my words and adding your own words to things I said to change the meaning of what I said. Not sure why you have a need to do that.

It seems my posts have somehow triggered you.

Clearly, what I said, what you perceived I said and what you claim I said, are different things. 

From your post #408, "People like you..."

Really? People like me?

I have made it abundantly clear in my posts that I have empathy for men, which is the title of this thread. 

If you don't perceive that, I don't know what to tell you.

Peace.

I'm out.


----------



## naiveonedave

I accidentally tested this yesterday. I hurt my knee playing a sport 2 months ago, not in need of surgery. Yesterday it hurt like crazy. I expressed my pain. I got the va-clang look and was told to suck it up buttercup. This is not an abnormal thing. Normally I just keep my mouth shut.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DustyDog said:


> The subject is not BEING vulnerable - it is EXPRESSING it that is the topic.
> 
> Men are vulnerable all the time. In initial contact, whoever asks the other person out is at risk of rejection. That's vulnerability. But he's not SHOWING it, he is expected to just "be strong". A man SHOWING vulnerability would actually say it, "I think you are so awesome that I am willing to risk rejection and the shame that comes of it to ask you out".
> 
> Men do all kinds of things that make them vulnerable. "Success" experts claim that you cannot make progress without risk and risk always entails vulnerability.
> 
> *What has been forbidden from men for so long is telling their woman that they felt vulnerable. Just think about what happens if a guy comes home from work and says "I got a bad review today. I'm scared that I might get fired." * John Gottman actually ran this test and found that in most cases (3/4, I think), the woman's response wasn't supportive to her man, rather it was accusatory and blaming him for all their money ills.
> 
> Empathy is not required when someone is doing something vulnerable, because basically everybody does that all day. Even cooking a meal, there's a certain vulnerability that the family won't like it. Empathy becomes needed when someone expresses that vulnerability.


Wow, that blows me away. I am so sorry so any of you experience this. This has happened more than once in our relationship. My response was always, Omg that sounds so scary. Don't worry about it for now. Whatever comes, comes and we will handle it. Let me know if you want me to just love on you or you want to talk about it. Sit on the couch tonight, I've got all the details. You don't have to worry about anything tonight.


----------



## ReturntoZero

naiveonedave said:


> I accidentally tested this yesterday. I hurt my knee playing a sport 2 months ago, not in need of surgery. Yesterday it hurt like crazy. I expressed my pain. I got the va-clang look and was told to suck it up buttercup. This is not an abnormal thing. Normally I just keep my mouth shut.


And, you will keep your mouth shut - next time.


----------



## ReturntoZero

inmyprime said:


> So if your wife *did* show strong empathy at that moment, would you not have taken it as a 'line cast out to you' (which you normally 'swim away from'), or worse, mistaken it for pity? I mean, which reaction would have been 'appropriate' from her, in your mind?
> 
> Is it possible some men are just as uncomfortable in the 'being vulnerable' role as women are, when expected to be empathetic with such men?
> 
> To me, it's not entirely clear whether it's the chicken or the egg first: it could be that men build the insecurity up in their minds, after opening up, that their partner is being more distant, because in the moment of vulnerability, they feel more...well...vulnerable, and any reaction from partner is therefore easier to misconstrue.
> 
> Just an alternative possibility. I am beginning to sense that this issue of women 'rejecting' their husbands in their moment of vulnerability could be taken out of proportion. (Not referring to your case but in general). The missing piece of the puzzle that's not being discussed so much here is that a man (or any person) is much more likely to over-react, after showing vulnerability/weakness while the wife is trying to emphasise with them.


My experience is when "she" judges my situation to be "important enough", then I will get emotional support.

I long ago realized, that's not anything I can depend on.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

WildMustang said:


> While I love and need a strong, protective, dominant man, I also recognize we are all human and we all have feelings. I don't need or want my man to pretend he is some kind of machine without feelings, nor would I be attracted to that. It would actually turn me off if I were in a close, sexual, intimate relationship with a man and he could not open up to me and be intimate with me and allow himself to be fully seen by me. Such a dynamic would also hinder me from feeling safe in being completely vulnerable and fully "seen" by him.
> 
> It would affect our sex life in a negative way.
> 
> I have loads and loads of empathy for men. I don't understand women who don't. It truly baffles me to read that some women don't? Makes me wonder if the women who don't have empathy for men is due to conditioning of the current sex wars or modern feminism. I don't know...just wondering out loud, trying to make sense of it. It seems bizarre to me.
> 
> Do such women not realize how tough it is to be a man, especially in this day????
> 
> Yes, I know it is also hard to be a woman in today's world, as I am a woman and I live it daily, hourly. But the topic I am addressing is the idea that women don't have empathy for men.
> 
> It's a tough world we live in. When I am in a relationship, it's us against the world. I have his back and he has mine. I am a safe port of refuge for him, a safe place for him to land and be fed, watered, loved, nurtured, adored, cherished, thoroughly f*cked, built back up when the world beats him down, so he can again go out into the world and fight the good fight.
> 
> I have a pretty wide submissive streak in me, so perhaps that helps explain it as another poster mentioned. Or maybe I just have a lot of natural empathy and compassion for both men and women anyway, who knows?
> 
> 
> This was my response in that thread. I just copied and pasted it into this one as I have nothing more to add at the moment other than this.


Beautiful post... I feel strongly the same as you have written out here...


----------



## WildMustang

@SimplyAmorous, Thank you! I have followed your posts on TAM for years, even though I just became a posting member 2 months ago. YOU are a gem of a woman and wife! And you have a GREAT man for a husband! You guys make such an amazing team! BLESSINGS to YOU and YOURS!

I have also noticed from your many posts over the years that you and I think a lot alike in many ways- mainly in being a "wife", a really good "wife" and helpmate - at our core. 

Sorry for the thread jack. Just had to say Hi!


----------



## Mr The Other

TheDudeLebowski said:


> The argument was about me not accepting her help and being open with my feelings. So I did. Then she withdrew and has never asked me to do the same again.


Tough, but understandable.

I am not keen on the title of this thread, it is a little judgemental.

What happens is offering empathy seems like a really easy thing, so not being like that seems terrible. 

Like it should be something we should reasonably expect.

In reality, to accept in good generous spirit that your feelings are secondary sometimes, and that your main emotional support in life can be wobbly sometimes, is extremely difficult.

It is something it would be unreasonable to expect. Or take for granted.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Mr The Other said:


> Tough, but understandable.
> 
> I am not keen on the title of this thread, it is a little judgemental.
> 
> What happens is offering empathy seems like a really easy thing, so not being like that seems terrible.
> 
> Like it should be something we should reasonably expect.
> 
> In reality, to accept in good generous spirit that your feelings are secondary sometimes, and that your main emotional support in life can be wobbly sometimes, is extremely difficult.
> 
> It is something it would be unreasonable to expect. Or take for granted.


The revelation here is how people really don't see how things are on the ground.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Mr The Other said:


> In reality, to accept in good generous spirit that your feelings are secondary sometimes, and that your main emotional support in life can be wobbly sometimes, is extremely difficult.
> 
> It is something it would be unreasonable to expect. Or take for granted.


Yes, it is tough to accept that your main emotional support in life can be wobbly sometimes.
Men have it so much easier. We know for sure that when the going gets tough, we can expect no emotional support whatsoever from the person we have vowed to share our life with. Certainty is so much easier to accept than wobbliness.


----------



## kag123

Faithful Wife said:


> All of this is still so different from my experience it is so sad and strange to me.
> 
> I've had 3 significant men in my life and all 3 of them have shared their most painful moments with me and I was just there for them, touching them gently and listening completely. When they were done talking I held them and understood them that much more. I never lost any attraction to them, my attraction actually grew because I now understood more about their journey and hardships.


I am so far behind on this thread, but just wanted to say "Yea, me too."

My heart hurts reading some of the stories here of people who have been left dry when needing support. 

If there is anything in my life that I try to do above all else, it is to show compassion and empathy to those that I love. 

My husband is a closed book. Always has been. We've been together almost 15 years and I can count on one hand the times he's shared something deep with me. I just try to embrace those moments, support him and love him when he wants to share. I wish he would feel safe to open up more. 

I am shocked that there are women out there who are so.... cold hearted.  

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## VladDracul

Holdingontoit said:


> We know for sure that when the going gets tough, we can expect no emotional support whatsoever from the person we have vowed to share our life with. Certainty is so much easier to accept than wobbliness.


Men may as well face it that little is as puzzified as a man needing and whining about not having emotional support. I like it that my wife, and some other women in my past showed they care and want to provide emotional support and empathy, but I've really never needed it and would be just as well off. I have no problem emotionally supporting my wife and would rather hurt myself than see her hurt but beyond showing she cares, her "emotional support" has limited utility. Moreover, I'd rather her not know I'm physically hurting or upset because I don't want to have to talk it to death and have her fetter doing something I want to do.


----------



## DustyDog

WildMustang said:


> @DustyDog
> 
> You are indeed confusing some of my posts with posts made by others, such as:
> 
> "When a man expresses vulnerability, I am willing to "forgive" the "mistake."
> 
> I never said that.
> 
> I also never said, "If a man expresses his feelings about me to me, he is acting like a woman."
> 
> You are twisting my words and adding your own words to things I said to change the meaning of what I said. Not sure why you have a need to do that.
> 
> It seems my posts have somehow triggered you.
> 
> Clearly, what I said, what you perceived I said and what you claim I said, are different things.
> 
> From your post #408, "People like you..."
> 
> Really? People like me?
> 
> I have made it abundantly clear in my posts that I have empathy for men, which is the title of this thread.
> 
> If you don't perceive that, I don't know what to tell you.
> 
> Peace.
> 
> I'm out.


So i have confused your posts with others. It is only because I am responding to the text you have quoted.

You have SAID that you have empathy - you have not demonstrated it. One does not make something clear by claiming it - one must provide a demonstration.

I am open to you referring to a posting of yours in which you demonstrate such empathy. 

Which, BTW, is not all that great anyway...I encourage you to google "pity, sympathy, empathy, compassion". Empathy is a poor step-child.


----------



## DustyDog

NobodySpecial said:


> Wow, that blows me away. I am so sorry so any of you experience this. This has happened more than once in our relationship. My response was always, Omg that sounds so scary. Don't worry about it for now. Whatever comes, comes and we will handle it. Let me know if you want me to just love on you or you want to talk about it. Sit on the couch tonight, I've got all the details. You don't have to worry about anything tonight.


In your example "OMG that sounds so scary" is supporting.

"Don't worry about it for now" is not...it is a not-so-subtle message that what the person is worried about CAN be ignored for now. To the person suffering, it is a big deal.

Be careful what your messages say. "Don't worry about it" is NOT supportive.


----------



## ReturntoZero

kag123 said:


> I am so far behind on this thread, but just wanted to say "Yea, me too."
> 
> My heart hurts reading some of the stories here of people who have been left dry when needing support.
> 
> If there is anything in my life that I try to do above all else, it is to show compassion and empathy to those that I love.
> 
> My husband is a closed book. Always has been. We've been together almost 15 years and I can count on one hand the times he's shared something deep with me. I just try to embrace those moments, support him and love him when he wants to share. I wish he would feel safe to open up more.
> 
> I am shocked that there are women out there who are so.... cold hearted.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I remember the day that my safe man proposed that I'd fare better if I viewed my wife as a cold hearted *****.

We've gotten along much better since I accepted this.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DustyDog said:


> In your example "OMG that sounds so scary" is supporting.
> 
> "Don't worry about it for now" is not...it is a not-so-subtle message that what the person is worried about CAN be ignored for now. To the person suffering, it is a big deal.
> 
> Be careful what your messages say. "Don't worry about it" is NOT supportive.


KKKKKKK. At least he understood me. He understood that we stand as a family and the money is not just his problem. That that night he gets to feel low. He gets to feel whatever way he wants. Don't worry about it means I have your back. Sit on ass if that is what you want. Because I have your back.


----------



## Wolfman1968

DustyDog said:


> The subject is not BEING vulnerable - it is EXPRESSING it that is the topic.
> 
> Men are vulnerable all the time. In initial contact, whoever asks the other person out is at risk of rejection. That's vulnerability. But he's not SHOWING it, he is expected to just "be strong". A man SHOWING vulnerability would actually say it, "I think you are so awesome that I am willing to risk rejection and the shame that comes of it to ask you out".
> 
> Men do all kinds of things that make them vulnerable. "Success" experts claim that you cannot make progress without risk and risk always entails vulnerability.
> 
> What has been forbidden from men for so long is telling their woman that they felt vulnerable. *Just think about what happens if a guy comes home from work and says "I got a bad review today. I'm scared that I might get fired." John Gottman actually ran this test and found that in most cases (3/4, I think), the woman's response wasn't supportive to her man, rather it was accusatory and blaming him for all their money ills.*
> 
> Empathy is not required when someone is doing something vulnerable, because basically everybody does that all day. Even cooking a meal, there's a certain vulnerability that the family won't like it. Empathy becomes needed when someone expresses that vulnerability.


Quoted for emphasis.


----------



## Wolfman1968

kag123 said:


> I am so far behind on this thread, but just wanted to say "Yea, me too."
> 
> My heart hurts reading some of the stories here of people who have been left dry when needing support.
> 
> If there is anything in my life that I try to do above all else, it is to show compassion and empathy to those that I love.
> 
> My husband is a closed book. Always has been. We've been together almost 15 years and I can count on one hand the times he's shared something deep with me. I just try to embrace those moments, support him and love him when he wants to share. I wish he would feel safe to open up more.
> 
> *I am shocked that there are women out there who are so.... cold hearted. *
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



Sadly, the research done by psychologists and sociologists which has been quoted in this thread reveals that it apparently is the MAJORITY of women. 

And the research shows that they don't consider themselves lacking in empathy, until it is pointed out to them by the third party researchers. 

Perhaps even some of the posters in this thread are less empathetic than they believe, based on this research. Because there haven't been too many women posting to say "yes, I am totally unsupportive of my husband's vulnerability/repelled when he displays vulnerability", even though the research says the vast majority of women are actually that way (but don't realize it).


----------



## uhtred

Its just a data point, but I have to say that my wife has no empathy for me. The times when I have been limited by some physical ailment she just became frustrated / annoyed when it interfered with what she wanted to do. She shows no empathy when I'm mentally stressed. 

Not saying its universal, but its what I see.


----------



## TX-SC

Well, if you don't want to see me cry, stop making me watch those damn Disney movies!!! 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## chillymorn69

When I stub my toe my wife can't stop laughing!


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## 269370

chillymorn69 said:


> When I stub my toe my wife can't stop laughing!




Hahahaha
Because it’s funny  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ReturntoZero

Wolfman1968 said:


> Sadly, the research done by psychologists and sociologists which has been quoted in this thread reveals that it apparently is the MAJORITY of women.
> 
> And the research shows that they don't consider themselves lacking in empathy, until it is pointed out to them by the third party researchers.
> 
> Perhaps even some of the posters in this thread are less empathetic than they believe, based on this research. Because there haven't been too many women posting to say "yes, I am totally unsupportive of my husband's vulnerability/repelled when he displays vulnerability", even though the research says the vast majority of women are actually that way (but don't realize it).


A huge part of my personal growth was the admonition - from my safe man- that she "cannot see it"

This blew me away. How can one "not see" what so clearly is true?

Emotions blind us. That's why introspection is so damned important to personal growth. It allows a man to make an informed decision.


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## sokillme

My theory that women who lack empathy for men didn't have a strong male roll model when they were kids. I think having a good relationship with her father allows a women to understand men better. Just my 2.


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## As'laDain

my wife didnt have any empathy for me for the first few years of our marriage...

i almost died in 2009(was actually declared dead) and when i woke up, my wife was just pizzed at me. took her ring off and pretty much told me she was leaving. later that year, i severed a tendon in my thumb. she was mostly pissed that i wouldnt be able to change our daughters diapers. 

she is a very different person today, but that is a result of actual effort in introspection and growth. her upbringing taught her that men were not to be respected, they were to be despised and lied to, and NEVER given a shred of sympathy. 

she sees things differently nowadays.


----------



## Rhubarb

TX-SC said:


> Well, if you don't want to see me cry, stop making me watch those damn Disney movies!!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Especially the new Disney made Star Wars movies. I cry because Star Wars is so bad now.


----------



## ReturntoZero

As'laDain said:


> my wife didnt have any empathy for me for the first few years of our marriage...
> 
> i almost died in 2009(was actually declared dead) and when i woke up, my wife was just pizzed at me. took her ring off and pretty much told me she was leaving. later that year, i severed a tendon in my thumb. she was mostly pissed that i wouldnt be able to change our daughters diapers.
> 
> she is a very different person today, but that is a result of actual effort in introspection and growth. her upbringing taught her that men were not to be respected, they were to be despised and lied to, and NEVER given a shred of sympathy.
> 
> she sees things differently nowadays.


Patience "can" be a virtue - when you're on the right road.


----------



## Buddy400

Wolfman1968 said:


> Perhaps even some of the posters in this thread are less empathetic than they believe, based on this research. Because there haven't been too many women posting to say "yes, I am totally unsupportive of my husband's vulnerability/repelled when he displays vulnerability", even though the research says the vast majority of women are actually that way (but don't realize it).


Well now, if they don't realize it, they're not likely to post that. Right?

About the only woman to admit it (and only as it effects sexual desire) is @GettingIt2 (who I love because she is so unusually self-aware). 

BTW I totally believe that most women posting here that claim to have empathy for men really do.


----------



## DustyDog

NobodySpecial said:


> KKKKKKK. At least he understood me. He understood that we stand as a family and the money is not just his problem. That that night he gets to feel low. He gets to feel whatever way he wants. Don't worry about it means I have your back. Sit on ass if that is what you want. Because I have your back.


Ugh. Calling money a "problem" is the start of many downward spirals.

Language MATTERS. Referring to anything as a problem, or bad, or a failure, begins a rapid path toward guilt and shame. Guilt can be beneficial, but only if the perosn who feels guilty can see exactly how they caused whatever the thing is and can also immediately identify something they can do right now to fix it. If, on the other hand, the thing surprised them, they don't know what their role was in it, or they belief they're not capable of fixing it, then they feel shame, which is when you belief you are a defective human being and unfixable. Shame is now considered to be the underlying origin of suicidal tendencies and violence toward others.

"Money is a joint responsibility" puts it in a positive light and underscores a belief that both of you are empowered to do things about it.

I encourage you to read the printed version of Marshall Rosenberg's "Nonviolent Communications". It underscores the dramatic way that words are heard and offers ways to make subtle changes in the way you speak so that you're interpreted as being a collaborator and not a judge. 

GL DD


----------



## Wolfman1968

Buddy400 said:


> Well now, if they don't realize it, they're not likely to post that. Right?


Yes, that is my point. And since (based on the research) the women don't realize they lack empathy, they would post how they DO have empathy--even though they are wrong about that.

Maybe I was being too indirect. I'll be more frank:

Since the research quoted in this thread shows how women lack empathy for men, and falsely claim to be sympathetic (without realizing they are false), then there is a pretty good chance that most of the women here claiming they are sympathetic to men's vulnerabilities are actually not sympathetic at all (based on that same research).



Buddy400 said:


> BTW I totally believe that most women posting here that claim to have empathy for men really do.


It's possible, but then, the sampling of posters here would have to be very atypical indeed. Because the research showed that almost all the women (80%-ish or worse) lacked empathy. In contrast, almost all the women posters (almost!) here claim to have empathy. If true, then the exact opposite of the research findings.


----------



## wild jade




----------



## wild jade

This is the land of TAM. Where men must be men, and women must be women. Where men are routinely admonished to man up, and anyone who suggests that maybe a different message might be more productive is laughed off the boards.

What I'm hearing is that (some) men are actually sick and tired of being told to man up, and want a different message.

But before you can hear that message, you have to be open to it.

One researcher, one in a sea of research on empathy, has argued that women should be more attentive to their man's vulnerability. And this is the basis for concluding that women have no empathy at all -- and no self-awareness either, since we "claim" that we actually don't spread the "man up" message? 

The Holly Cole song sums it up for me. And while I won't pretend to know the stats, I do know that there is nothing out of the ordinary or unusual about how I feel.


----------



## Buddy400

Wolfman1968 said:


> It's possible, but then, the sampling of posters here would have to be very atypical indeed. Because the research showed that almost all the women (80%-ish or worse) lacked empathy. In contrast, almost all the women posters (almost!) here claim to have empathy. If true, then the exact opposite of the research findings.


I would agree that the 80% estimate seems right.

I think that for @faithfulwife, @wild jade & @NobodySpecial it fits in with their "worldview" of other topics, which is why I tend to believe them. The problem, as I see it, is their assumption that most women are like them when it comes to male / female relationships.


----------



## uhtred

There are a lot of cases where acceptance is growing, but the negative reactions from some people can still be very extreme.

Being a gay man, or a sexually active woman is accepted by a lot of society - but treated very negatively by a significant number of people.

Same for men expressing any emotional "weakness". While many people accept that, there are still many who will react very negatively. So many men have learned to hid their emotions just as many gay men have learned to hide their orientation. 





wild jade said:


> This is the land of TAM. Where men must be men, and women must be women. Where men are routinely admonished to man up, and anyone who suggests that maybe a different message might be more productive is laughed off the boards.
> 
> What I'm hearing is that (some) men are actually sick and tired of being told to man up, and want a different message.
> 
> But before you can hear that message, you have to be open to it.
> 
> One researcher, one in a sea of research on empathy, has argued that women should be more attentive to their man's vulnerability. And this is the basis for concluding that women have no empathy at all -- and no self-awareness either, since we "claim" that we actually don't spread the "man up" message?
> 
> The Holly Cole song sums it up for me. And while I won't pretend to know the stats, I do know that there is nothing out of the ordinary or unusual about how I feel.


----------



## Faithful Wife

uhtred said:


> Its just a data point, but I have to say that my wife has no empathy for me. The times when I have been limited by some physical ailment she just became frustrated / annoyed when it interfered with what she wanted to do. She shows no empathy when I'm mentally stressed.
> 
> Not saying its universal, but its what I see.


This is kind of relevant in your sitch.


----------



## Faithful Wife

As'laDain said:


> my wife didnt have any empathy for me for the first few years of our marriage...
> 
> i almost died in 2009(was actually declared dead) and when i woke up, my wife was just pizzed at me. took her ring off and pretty much told me she was leaving. later that year, i severed a tendon in my thumb. she was mostly pissed that i wouldnt be able to change our daughters diapers.
> 
> she is a very different person today, but that is a result of actual effort in introspection and growth. her upbringing taught her that men were not to be respected, they were to be despised and lied to, and NEVER given a shred of sympathy.
> 
> she sees things differently nowadays.


You have posted before that you have been diagnosed as ASPD (correct me if I'm wrong). This disorder usually comes with a lack of empathy. 

I'm just curious if you feel that you know what empathy feels like?


----------



## As'laDain

Faithful Wife said:


> You have posted before that you have been diagnosed as ASPD (correct me if I'm wrong). This disorder usually comes with a lack of empathy.
> 
> I'm just curious if you feel that you know what empathy feels like?


im pretty sure i do. i have actually cried for the suffering of other people(and sometimes for suffering that i afflicted in war) since the NDE, which was an overwhelming and very new experience for me...

i would say that i didn't back when i was diagnosed with it though. 

my wife has done a lot of things that most people would have left her for. or, im assuming most people on TAM would have, anyway. financial infidelity, physically abusive, alcohol abuse, verbal abuse, reckless behavior, manipulative behavior(even false allegations) withholding sex, etc.

sometimes i wonder if my unique situation is the reason why i was able to take an extremely terrible marriage and turn it into a pretty damned awesome marriage. the things that would have probably cut people to the core didn't hurt me. they just caused me to try harder to find ways to convince my wife to work with me as a team. for instance, for several years i recorded most of our conversations so that i had proof of her behavior. she was prone to making rash decisions and then regretting them later. she would try to act like they didnt happen. well, sometimes i would need to remind her of the recorder just to keep her from doing something that she couldn't just take back. 

she is a very different person today. we both are.


----------



## Faithful Wife

As'laDain said:


> im pretty sure i do. i have actually cried for the suffering of other people(and sometimes for suffering that i afflicted in war) since the NDE, which was an overwhelming and very new experience for me...
> 
> i would say that i didn't back when i was diagnosed with it though.
> 
> my wife has done a lot of things that most people would have left her for. or, im assuming most people on TAM would have, anyway. financial infidelity, physically abusive, alcohol abuse, verbal abuse, reckless behavior, manipulative behavior(even false allegations) withholding sex, etc.
> 
> sometimes i wonder if my unique situation is the reason why i was able to take an extremely terrible marriage and turn it into a pretty damned awesome marriage. the things that would have probably cut people to the core didn't hurt me. they just caused me to try harder to find ways to convince my wife to work with me as a team. for instance, for several years i recorded most of our conversations so that i had proof of her behavior. she was prone to making rash decisions and then regretting them later. she would try to act like they didnt happen. well, sometimes i would need to remind her of the recorder just to keep her from doing something that she couldn't just take back.
> 
> she is a very different person today. we both are.


If I recall correctly, you and she are in a D/S relationship. It seems that the women who are truly submissive may have a common thing where they are blocked from feeling sexual attraction for a man who is in need of empathy or needy or vulnerable. Jld had explained her feelings about this many times and I eventually came to understand this was just the way her attraction worked and she had no control over it. 

Would you say that describes your wife?


----------



## As'laDain

Faithful Wife said:


> If I recall correctly, you and she are in a D/S relationship. It seems that the women who are truly submissive may have a common thing where they are blocked from feeling sexual attraction for a man who is in need of empathy or needy or vulnerable. Jld had explained her feelings about this many times and I eventually came to understand this was just the way her attraction worked and she had no control over it.
> 
> Would you say that describes your wife?


yes, we are in a D/S relationship. funny that you mention jld... its the same kind of D/S relationship: DDlg. there are plenty of differences in our relationships, but the overall dynamic is very similar. 

so far as attraction, i think it comes down to what feels safe. my wife feels safe when she knows she is not going to hurt me and push me away. she doenst have to worry about getting triggered by something and doing something that will destroy our relationship, in part because its not easy to hurt me, and also because i make it difficult for her to actually do the destructive behaviors to begin with. without that kind of safety, sexual attraction becomes damn near impossible.

that is not to say there are no consequences for her actions though. she is safe from being abandoned or abused, she is not safe from regretting her own actions. if this were not the case, she would have no respect for me and again, sexual attraction would be nearly impossible for her. 

so basically, if i want my wife to feel attracted to me, i need to make sure she knows that i love her enough to make sure she feels safe from toxic shame and abandonment, while at the same time hold her accountable and make sure she continuously experiences swift and appropriate consequences for her actions, both good and bad. 

hence the DDlg dynamic.


----------



## wild jade

uhtred said:


> There are a lot of cases where acceptance is growing, but the negative reactions from some people can still be very extreme.
> 
> Being a gay man, or a sexually active woman is accepted by a lot of society - but treated very negatively by a significant number of people.
> 
> Same for men expressing any emotional "weakness". While many people accept that, there are still many who will react very negatively. So many men have learned to hid their emotions just as many gay men have learned to hide their orientation.


Fortunately, there's all kinds of people on this great big ol' ball of ours.


----------



## naiveonedave

wild jade said:


> Fortunately, there's all kinds of people on this great big ol' ball of ours.


the data presented earlier kinda fits that 80% of us aren't that different at all.


----------



## BigDigg

wild jade said:


> One researcher, one in a sea of research on empathy, has argued that women should be more attentive to their man's vulnerability. And this is the basis for concluding that women have no empathy at all -- and no self-awareness either, since we "claim" that we actually don't spread the "man up" message?


I think the takeaway here at least based on the comments from men in this thread is that a lot of women (though certainly not all) don't instinctively provide empathy for their husbands and furthermore are somewhat actively or passively turned off (both emotionally & sexually) when they do demonstrate vulnerability. It's been noted that this same response doesn't show for others (friends, family) etc. so it's not always a case of the particular person not having the skills but rather that they don't respond the same for their husband.

Honestly I don't view this as a generalized short coming of women but rather something that just IS - likely biological or adaptive.


----------



## Wolfman1968

BigDigg said:


> I think the takeaway here at least based on the comments from men in this thread is that a lot of women (though certainly not all) don't instinctively provide empathy for their husbands and furthermore are somewhat actively or passively turned off (both emotionally & sexually) when they do demonstrate vulnerability. It's been noted that this same response doesn't show for others (friends, family) etc. so it's not always a case of the particular person not having the skills but rather that they don't respond the same for their husband.


Actually, some of the studies quoted in this thread show that the lack of empathy from women applied to men as a group, not just their husbands.




BigDigg said:


> Honestly I don't view this as a generalized short coming of women but rather something that just IS - likely biological or adaptive.


Well, it may be biological (I don't know either way, but say it is for the sake of argument), but that doesn't mean it can't be a shortcoming. After all, part of the studies were the mixed messages women gave--- women SAID "men need to show their emotions more, show vulnerability more", but when men DID it, women reacted negatively, without even realizing that they were being contradictory. I'm not sure sending out the initial false message is really biological. Lack of self-assessment/introspection by the women would be a shortcoming. It would certainly be more honest if they could ALL actually say, "No, DON'T be more vulnerable/emotional, because I am repelled by that in men, and I can't help it". So, the inability to recognize their own contradictions is a shortcoming, even if their emotional response is involuntary.

And to some extent, even an involuntary situation can be a shortcoming. If I have a poor memory for facts and that hurts me in my education or career, that's still a shortcoming. I think that the inability for 80% of the women to provide empathy and support to men who need it is a shortcoming, and certainly is an unfair burden to the men who are asked to provide support but can never receive it. 

If it is shown somehow that because of testosterone levels, or sex-specific brain wiring, or because of a biological male instinct inherited from our primitive mammalian ancestors, that men are innately more likely to be violent, or push the envelope aggressively in male-female relationships to the point of near-harassment, would you say that is NOT a shortcoming in men because there is a biological basis..."it just IS"?


----------



## Wolfman1968

wild jade said:


> One researcher, one in a sea of research on empathy, has argued that women should be more attentive to their man's vulnerability. And this is the basis for concluding that women have no empathy at all -- and no self-awareness either, since we "claim" that we actually don't spread the "man up" message?


Actually, it was more than one researcher. Dusty Dog alone has referenced more than one study in this thread.

And if you listen to Brene Brown's talks on youtube (which DustyDog references), you will find that she quotes the work of other researchers as well. Although I get the impression that Brene Brown is more or less the leader in this area, which is probably why she is giving the TED talk.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Wolfman1968 said:


> Actually, it was more than one researcher. Dusty Dog alone has referenced more than one study in this thread.
> 
> And if you listen to Brene Brown's talks on youtube (which DustyDog references), you will find that she quotes the work of other researchers as well. Although I get the impression that Brene Brown is more or less the leader in this area, which is probably why she is giving the TED talk.


I haven't been following this thread so I missed the majority of posts... only read a few at the end... seen Brene Brown mentioned here... I spoke of her in regards to this issue in an old thread here : http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/302234-interesting-article-suicide-shame-men.html...

This was my 1st post on that thread ...explaining her take or lack of it in regards to men...



> Our society has, quite rightly, spent much time and effort sending girls and women the message that they can be strong, capable and successful. We have, however missed the fact that we have kept on sending boys and men the messages that they must *always *be strong, capable and successful.
> 
> The first of these messages is helpful and empowering, the second is potentially disastrous since it sets boys up from a very young age to have unrealistic expectations of themselves which can lead them to feel unhealthy levels of shame when they are unable to live up to those expectations. And this shame will be reinforced by those around them. Boys will be bullied if they are not always strong, men will be dismissed as “losers” if they are not always capable and successful.


 I agree with what is said here... good article .



> Psychologists will tell you that a key tool in combatting unhealthy shame is empathy. Empathy is when people understand your pain, accept you as you are and help to create an environment in which you can learn to accept yourself and realize that you are ok despite your imperfections.


Brene Brown is the Shame, Empathy, vulnerability" researcher. I was watching one of her videos a couple weeks ago.... and something stood out ... a husband came up to her after one of her talks.. and asked her point blank WHY she doesn't speak to men..

 Listening to Shame - Ted Talk - Brene Brown 

In the video..


> *16:22*
> For men, shame is not a bunch of competing, conflicting expectations. Shame is one, do not be perceived as what? Weak. I did not interview men for the first four years of my study.* It wasn't until a man looked at me after a book signing, and said, "I love what say about shame, I'm curious why you didn't mention men." And I said, "I don't study men." And he said, "That's convenient."*
> 
> *16:52*
> And I said, "Why?" *And he said, "Because you say to reach out, tell our story, be vulnerable. But you see those books you just signed for my wife and my three daughters?" I said, "Yeah." "They'd rather me die on top of my white horse than watch me fall down. When we reach out and be vulnerable, we get the **** beat out of us. And don't tell me it's from the guys and the coaches and the dads. Because the women in my life are harder on me than anyone else."*
> 
> *17:29*
> So I started interviewing men and asking questions. And what I learned is this: You show me a woman who can actually sit with a man in real vulnerability and fear, I'll show you a woman who's done incredible work. You show me a man who can sit with a woman who's just had it, she can't do it all anymore, and his first response is not, "I unloaded the dishwasher!"
> 
> *17:56*
> But he really listens -- because that's all we need -- I'll show you a guy who's done a lot of work.
> 
> *18:03*
> Shame is an epidemic in our culture. And to get out from underneath it -- to find our way back to each other, we have to understand how it affects us and how it affects the way we're parenting, the way we're working, the way we're looking at each other. Very quickly, some research by Mahalik at Boston College.He asked, what do women need to do to conform to female norms? The top answers in this country:nice, thin, modest and use all available resources for appearance.
> 
> *18:40*
> *When he asked about men, what do men in this country need to do to conform with male norms, the answers were: always show emotional control, work is first, pursue status and violence.*
> 
> *18:54*
> If we're going to find our way back to each other, we have to understand and know empathy, because empathy's the antidote to shame. If you put shame in a Petri dish, it needs three things to grow exponentially: secrecy, silence and judgment. If you put the same amount in a Petri dish and douse it with empathy, it can't survive. The two most powerful words when we're in struggle: me too.
> 
> *19:18*
> And so I'll leave you with this thought. If we're going to find our way back to each other, vulnerability is going to be that path. And I know it's seductive to stand outside the arena, because I think I did it my whole life, and think to myself, I'm going to go in there and kick some ass when I'm bulletproof and when I'm perfect. And that is seductive. But the truth is, that never happens. And even if you got as perfect as you could and as bulletproof as you could possibly muster when you got in there, that's not what we want to see. We want you to go in. We want to be with you and across from you. And we just want, for ourselves and the people we care about and the people we work with, to dare greatly.





















In this video* >>* 



 ...she speaks of shame and WOMEN..starting around 3:40 ...she mentions how she didn't speak of men, that encounter (above).....

Back to the subject at hand.. the article spoke how women use that phrase "the fragile male ego"... I believe I understand where you are coming from.. I touched on this in my last thread.. on Understanding the Male Ego ...My intentions using this phrase is likely not what you think....it's true...I see it on this forum all the time.. 

Far too often men can not openly show *too much* vulnerability / "negative emotions" as women will , sometimes instantly lose attraction for them...or see them as weak, pathetic, whiny little boys... 

I believe, us as wives, have a profound effect on our men, with our encouragement, our RESPECT, validation & love...if the man has LET US IN, and we didn't shut him down with our disfavor.. but have shown understanding......we have more power to heal, and build UP than we realize... Men too, need a safe place to land....this is part of our role as wives. But I say this cautiously... depending on the woman.. many will never be able to fully open up & show that soft side, a weaker vulnerability.. they have been there, done that.. and learned their lesson....so they go it alone...

When men get depressed.. they often feel they have to go it alone, then they find a vice, an outlet -often times not healthy...drinking, numbing.. anything to take away the pain..... we have a son who I felt needed counseling after a bad breakup / betrayal by a good friend...he downright refused. He will not open himself up to help like that.. too much Pride I guess.. The statistics of men killing themselves are much higher over women.. because of this shame...it's very unfortunate.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Life expectancy for men - 69-70 years.

For women - 78-79 years.

Draw your own conclusions.


----------



## naiveonedave

@SimplyAmorous - brilliant post.


----------



## wild jade

Wolfman1968 said:


> Actually, it was more than one researcher. Dusty Dog alone has referenced more than one study in this thread.
> 
> And if you listen to Brene Brown's talks on youtube (which DustyDog references), you will find that she quotes the work of other researchers as well. Although I get the impression that Brene Brown is more or less the leader in this area, which is probably why she is giving the TED talk.


The reality is that people have been talking about this since the 1970s and coming to roughly the same conclusion, that the "man up" message is overblown, ridiculous and unfair to men. 

I get it. It's a stupid stereotype that puts an unreasonable burden on men who directly suffer the consequences. You'll get no argument from me on this.

But that doesn't mean that 80% of women (especially in this day and age) are supporting this stereotype, and even Brene Brown doesn't make this claim, let alone any other researcher. And the other cited source, Gottman, focuses on communication failures and puts most of the responsibility squarely on men for stonewalling their wives.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

I am very much the stereotypical male most of my life. Emotions close to the vest. Only display strength and confidence outward. Never show vulnerability. NEVER show weakness. 

In an attempt to deepen my connection with my wife, on a couple occasions, I have opened up and let some of the vulnerability show...

... she was instantly, and visibly turned off. I mean, she noticeably shrunk away from me... averted her gaze. 

One of my worst moves ever. Good intentions, bad result. Each time, it took time to regain my status in her eyes. I'll not make that mistake again, no matter how much modern pop psychology tells me women want their men to be vulnerable. 

Which is all okay. I'm actually much more comfortable (and productive and happy) playing Atlas, just as she prefers to be married to Atlas. I will shrug no more.


----------



## BigDigg

Wolfman1968 said:


> If it is shown somehow that because of testosterone levels, or sex-specific brain wiring, or because of a biological male instinct inherited from our primitive mammalian ancestors, that men are innately more likely to be violent, or push the envelope aggressively in male-female relationships to the point of near-harassment, would you say that is NOT a shortcoming in men because there is a biological basis..."it just IS"?


When 50% of our species feels one way and the other 50% feels the opposite there isn't an inherent right or wrong - it's just how we're wired. You see this in every HD/LD thread all over TAM with differing opinions of who should accommodate whom, who's at ultimately at fault, etc... There is a difference though between behavior which we can control (like choosing to not harass women and to treat all women with respect) and our feelings which we have significantly less ability to influence (like not being attracted to that same woman). Socially we've evolved as a species to set and continuously change the norms of expected behavior. I'd argue changes to feelings are much slower to adapt and in some cases might never. Understanding and accepting the basic rules of attraction between sexes that drive feelings goes a long way to creating relationships that have harmony. 

So it is with this topic. We've generally recognized as a society that equality in all things is inherently a good thing and that extends to female empathy and acceptance of men who share their vulnerabilities. Historically speaking that goes against the norms of masculinity, however liberated women of solid character will almost universally agree. That's what they say they want...they say they are attracted to this trait in a man...

And yet...one way or another half the threads of problem marriages here on TAM raised by men (whether its a poor sex life, cheating wife or lack of empathy) all seem to have the same basic characteristic: their wives allowing emotional feelings to override or influence expected spousal behavior. Almost all the standard agreed upon advice to these men directly targets the cliched instinctive masculine attractions that women want: be strong both physically and in presence, show decisiveness and never weakness, always maintain control, avoid being a 'beta' male. And this advice is almost completely counter to the concept of opening up and sharing. The NNMNG, complete 180, alpha/beta theories are basically an instruction set to target these elements in women. Very rarely do you see a case where the man just shared his thoughts and feelings with his wife and the couple mutually agreed to change behavior and everyone lives happily ever after. The success stories when they occur are usually because the male changed behavior to more closely exhibit the norms of traditional male masculinity. Of course communication IS important but is seemingly only effective when both parties love, respect and are attracted to each other.

This is a very long way of saying that I think many women really DON'T want their husbands to open up and show vulnerability as a regular element of the relationship. When they do it goes against what they are attracted to. Done frequently enough and over a long enough period and they'll lose some attraction and that will surface elsewhere in the relationship. Whether they connect the dots on this or not almost doesn't matter. The rules of attraction are what they are...it just IS.


----------



## growing_weary

I've never been turned off by vulnerability.

However, over-reaction to things that I just have to suck up and take gets me every time. Like the tired trope that guys are babies when they're sick? When your man actually acts that way for a cold and you've been taking care of him and the house, and the cooking, and whatever with death-flu then he gets you sick with the cold too? well... my empathy might get a little lower. 

I'm the type of person to tear up when I read that someone hurt their eye. I can feel pain when I real about it so I don't think it's a lack of empathy, but the circumstances. 

My stbxh was way more emotional than I was in general. When our separation happened, any expression of my grief was almost one-upped by him. He would wail, and throw things, and blubber on my lap even though he was the one to cheat, to lie and to wound me to my core. I'm sorry, if I'm supposed to have extra empathy at that point (and boy did I try to make him feel better as the knife kept twisting deeper, even through the pain) I dunno.


----------



## Laurentium

So this is it:


> 17:29
> So I started interviewing men and asking questions. And what I learned is this: You show me a woman who can actually sit with a man in real vulnerability and fear, *I'll show you a woman who's done incredible work*.


To me, that means such women do exist, but they are a small minority.


----------



## bandit.45

I don't think women lack empathy for men in general. I think most of them are so self absorbed in their own daily lives and issues that they don't notice when something is going on with the men in their lives. Same can be said for men. 

There is always going to be a fundamental disconnect between the sexes. It's amazing our species has evolved as far as it has.


----------



## wild jade

The TAM message is always man up, but I think it's still an open question as to whether this advice works. 

Certainly if you've spent your whole life holding up the world, and chosen a wife who loves you because you hold up the world, then she's a lot more likely to want you to keep holding up that world. Similarly, if you choose a wife who is submissive to your dominant, then she'll likely be turned off by you going all submissive on her (Just as turned off as you would be if she turned dominant on you.)

And if you want to be the stereotypical stoic guy, who never shows weakness, then by all means, own it, embrace it, and you will absolutely be able to find lots of women who appreciate you for it.

All I'm saying is that there are lots of guys who don't embrace the stereotype and they too find there are lots of women to appreciate them for that. (Probably more women than men if my experience in the matter is at all indicative.)


----------



## Holdingontoit

wild jade said:


> All I'm saying is that there are lots of guys who don't embrace the stereotype and they too find there are lots of women to appreciate them for that. (Probably more women than men if my experience in the matter is at all indicative.)


There are also lots of guys who don't embrace the stereotype who find that sex stops once he puts a ring on her finger, or once he shows that he does not embrace the stereotype. And in many of those cases, the only thing that works to get the sex turned back on is to "man up".


----------



## wild jade

Holdingontoit said:


> There are also lots of guys who don't embrace the stereotype who find that sex stops once he puts a ring on her finger, or once he shows that he does not embrace the stereotype. And in many of those cases, the only thing that works to get the sex turned back on is to "man up".


No doubt. But I'm betting there are other solutions that might work better -- depending, of course, on the people involved.

What I'm trying to say is that we teach people how they should treat us. If I lie all of the time, you will expect me to be a liar and treat me as such. If I tell the truth, you will assume what I say is truthful ... and likely be shocked if you catch me in a lie.

If I am always stoic and never emotionally needy, those who are used to me being that rock will react if I am to have a nervous breakdown. 

If you want to change any dynamic that you've established, you're going to have to give it time. And effort and understanding. Nothing changes overnight, and IME, people really want us to continue to be whatever it is that they are used to us being ... no matter what that is.


----------



## heartsbeating

Here's what empathy means to my husband:







Proactive actions. Putting myself in his shoes, to consider what he might need, without him expressing it. Yes, as simple as bringing a cold drink when he's on the tools. Day-to-day moments. He could ask for a cold drink, but it's not the same as just being thought of. Admittedly, I don't demonstrate empathy towards him as often as opportunity presents. It's not intentional, although might be inconsiderate. He demonstrates this towards me though. He will consider what I might need/like in a certain moment and act on it. 

He knows I have his back, best interests at heart, has my support. When it comes to empathy, although it's expressed in my work and other relationships - in my marriage, there's room for me to up my game. Last year when he traveled for work, I arranged for a gin, mixed nuts and love note be waiting in his room for arrival. To me, this was romantic. To him, this was empathy. Having gained understanding what empathy means to him, in our marriage, I have greater awareness. To put myself in his shoes and act on it.


----------



## chillymorn69

heartsbeating said:


> Here's what empathy means to my husband:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goGzWR5r9ko
> 
> 
> Proactive actions. Putting myself in his shoes, to consider what he might need, without him expressing it. Yes, as simple as bringing a cold drink when he's on the tools. Day-to-day moments. He could ask for a cold drink, but it's not the same as just being thought of. Admittedly, I don't demonstrate empathy towards him as often as opportunity presents. It's not intentional, although might be inconsiderate. He demonstrates this towards me though. He will consider what I might need/like in a certain moment and act on it.
> 
> He knows I have his back, best interests at heart, has my support. When it comes to empathy, although it's expressed in my work and other relationships - in my marriage, there's room for me to up my game. Last year when he traveled for work, I arranged for a gin, mixed nuts and love note be waiting in his room for arrival. To me, this was romantic. To him, this was empathy. Having gained understanding what empathy means to him, in our marriage, I have greater awareness. To put myself in his shoes and act on it.



Nice!

I like bill burr!

Funny funny guy.


----------



## Buddy400

chillymorn69 said:


> Nice!
> 
> I like bill burr!
> 
> Funny funny guy.


I think Bill Burr might be the only comic who doesn't apologize for being a man.


----------



## Holdingontoit

wild jade said:


> No doubt. But I'm betting there are other solutions that might work better -- depending, of course, on the people involved.


We can agree to disagree (about whether there is another solution that might work better).



> What I'm trying to say is that we teach people how they should treat us. If I lie all of the time, you will expect me to be a liar and treat me as such. If I tell the truth, you will assume what I say is truthful ... and likely be shocked if you catch me in a lie.
> 
> If I am always stoic and never emotionally needy, those who are used to me being that rock will react if I am to have a nervous breakdown.
> 
> If you want to change any dynamic that you've established, you're going to have to give it time. And effort and understanding. Nothing changes overnight, and IME, people really want us to continue to be whatever it is that they are used to us being ... no matter what that is.


But the study is NOT about changing the dynamic. It is about exhibiting any weakness or vulnerability. Nothing in the study is about "training" a woman to expect stoicism and then displaying weakness.

Do I understand your argument to be "if you had shown emotional weakness in the beginning, and trained her to expect that from you, she would not have reacted poorly to a display of weakness"? If that is what you mean, we disagree and I believe your mechanism is NOT what the study showed. I think (and I think the study supports) that showing weakness initially is NOT going to train a woman to accept weakness. Showing weakness early is going to get the guy nexted immediately, or if not, even worse, she just wants him for money, co-parenting and housekeeping and the guy will be doomed to a sexless relationship unless he has the strength to get out. The study was not about the timing or order in which the guys shows weakness. The study was about the negative impact of showing any vulnerability at all.

And if you think that this is just about a guy waiting to find a woman who will accept his vulnerability, well, if only 20% of women are capable of doing that, by definition not every guy is going to be able to find such a woman if more than 20% of guys have any inherent vulnerability. Which means guys are going to find that hiding their vulnerability is still their more effective mating strategy.


----------



## ReturntoZero

If you had shown emotional weakness in the beginning, she likely wouldn't be with you.


----------



## ReturntoZero

heartsbeating said:


> Here's what empathy means to my husband:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goGzWR5r9ko
> 
> 
> Proactive actions. Putting myself in his shoes, to consider what he might need, without him expressing it. Yes, as simple as bringing a cold drink when he's on the tools. Day-to-day moments. He could ask for a cold drink, but it's not the same as just being thought of. Admittedly, I don't demonstrate empathy towards him as often as opportunity presents. It's not intentional, although might be inconsiderate. He demonstrates this towards me though. He will consider what I might need/like in a certain moment and act on it.
> 
> He knows I have his back, best interests at heart, has my support. When it comes to empathy, although it's expressed in my work and other relationships - in my marriage, there's room for me to up my game. Last year when he traveled for work, I arranged for a gin, mixed nuts and love note be waiting in his room for arrival. To me, this was romantic. To him, this was empathy. Having gained understanding what empathy means to him, in our marriage, I have greater awareness. To put myself in his shoes and act on it.


My favorite drink is Rum & Coke... in case anyone cares.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Unfortunately, she who is most accepting in this way can really wreak havoc.

I met a family in the central US. The husband/father had just retired as a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army. The retirement was driven by his being passed up for promotion to full Colonel. He was rather devastated (which is silly, just making it to LtC is quite an achievement). 

Here's what that poor man now had to look forward to: A Lt Col's pension (not insignificant in itself, roughly equal to the national median income, and carrying other lifetime benefits such as health care), the ability to start a new career as he was still in his mid 40s, the opportunity to live wherever he wanted with no fear of financial disaster. And, oh yeah, he had two beautiful daughters who loved and looked up to him PLUS his wife was quite a looker who was also completely devoted AND had a dynamite personality. What misery he faced!

... but ...

While still on active duty, in the roughly 18 months between when he was passed over for promotion and when he received his final retirement, his wonderful wife, trying to be supportive and most importantly, positive, spoke of the great future they had ahead of them. How they could settle down, be together as a family, enjoy each other's company, etc. He continued to whine about how he had been judged unfairly, expecting to be pampered and babied for all the injustice he had suffered. She was empathetic at first, but then began to expect him to get over it, man up, and move on. 

... meanwhile ... 

his secretary stroked his bruised ego on a daily basis. She was a walking ball of empathy for him. She facilitated an environment where this man full of self pity and anger could begin to bond with her while weakening the bond with his wife. An adulterous relationship was born. 

He retired from his final duty post in Japan and the family settled in the middle of the States. Back on track? Nope. The secretary quit that position and followed the family! I don't know if the affair was physical before leaving Japan or not until after everyone arrived in the States (probably the former), but the end result was the end of a two decade marriage and the breakup of what, at least by outside appearances, was the perfect family. 

I guess, what I'm doing by sharing this sad tale is pointing out that too much, or misdirected, empathy can be a bad thing. Dude had it all and tossed it, wrecking at least four lives, all for some empathy. And what the homewrecker ended up with turned out to be no real prize after all. No winners anywhere in this situation. 

There's a reason most women expect, and are attracted to, a certain level of backbone in their mates.


----------



## Holdingontoit

ReturntoZero said:


> If you had shown emotional weakness in the beginning, she likely wouldn't be with you.


Exactly. That is why I said that a guy showing weakness is likely to either be "nexted" immediately or worse, doomed to a sexless relationship. Never show weakness. Die first. It hurts less.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I would agree that the 80% estimate seems right.
> 
> I think that for @faithfulwife, @wild jade & @NobodySpecial it fits in with their "worldview" of other topics, which is why I tend to believe them. The problem, as I see it, is their assumption that most women are like them when it comes to male / female relationships.


I actually don't think MOST people have empathy, period. I CERTAINLY don't think most women are empathetic toward their husband's though I had no idea how epic the proportions. Question. Why do men marry women like that? Sincere question.


----------



## ReturntoZero

NobodySpecial said:


> I actually don't think MOST people have empathy, period. I CERTAINLY don't think most women are empathetic toward their husband's though I had no idea how epic the proportions. Question. Why do men marry women like that? Sincere question.


Simple answer.

They're attracted to them.

That's the reason men get married.


----------



## sokillme

NobodySpecial said:


> I actually don't think MOST people have empathy, period. I CERTAINLY don't think most women are empathetic toward their husband's though I had no idea how epic the proportions. Question. Why do men marry women like that? Sincere question.


Testosterone is a stronger force in our lives then logic is, especially when we are young.


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> I actually don't think MOST people have empathy, period. I CERTAINLY don't think most women are empathetic toward their husband's though I had no idea how epic the proportions. Question. Why do men marry women like that? Sincere question.



Two things:
Men don’t really need sympathy at the beginning of the relationships; the dynamics are all different: men feel the need to protect and take care of their woman of choice. The sympathy need comes later.
Women also are much better at either simulator my or actually providing sympathy at the beginning of the relationship (when, ironically, they don’t really need it). 
Later, men decide it was a bait and switch. But maybe all those things happen on a unconscious/hormonal level.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wild jade

Holdingontoit said:


> But the study is NOT about changing the dynamic. It is about exhibiting any weakness or vulnerability. Nothing in the study is about "training" a woman to expect stoicism and then displaying weakness.


So far there haven't been too many details provided on this infamous study. But I'm pretty sure that the 80% stat that keeps getting thrown around is made up. 80% is the TAM magic number that "proves" every hopeless and inescapable trap that men suffer at the hands of women. 

Don't get me wrong. It sounds like many guys here are with completely unempathetic wilves, and I feel for them. Not being able to even show a tiny moment of hesitation, never being able to admit that you are lost, or have doubt, or get ill, without being judged as failing to be a man sounds to me a very sad and hard way to live one's life. I certainly wouldn't be able to handle it. 

I'm just commenting because what's described here is so far from my experience, I can't help but come at it with different perspectives and context. 

IRL I've had lots of interactions with men I've talked to them about their anxieties about their relationships, about their careers, about their finances. I've never seen a guy even slightly surprised that I would listen to him, empathize with him, and have even occasional helpful advice. Even my father who didn't really allow emotions could easily admit when he was lost or didn't know the answer. And I've never met a guy who was quite real about his feelings unable to have a fulfilling sexual relationship. 

It just seems to me that it is helpful to learn that there actually is a different way to live --- if that's actually what you want.


----------



## wild jade

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> There's a reason most women expect, and are attracted to, a certain level of backbone in their mates.


And yet, the upshot of your story is that the empathetic woman gets the man, and the man gets laid by the empathetic woman.


----------



## naiveonedave

wild jade said:


> So far there haven't been too many details provided on this infamous study. But I'm pretty sure that the 80% stat that keeps getting thrown around is made up. 80% is the TAM magic number that "proves" every hopeless and inescapable trap that men suffer at the hands of women.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. It sounds like many guys here are with completely unempathetic wilves, and I feel for them. Not being able to even show a tiny moment of hesitation, never being able to admit that you are lost, or have doubt, or get ill, without being judged as failing to be a man sounds to me a very sad and hard way to live one's life. I certainly wouldn't be able to handle it.
> 
> I'm just commenting because what's described here is so far from my experience, I can't help but come at it with different perspectives and context.
> 
> IRL I've had lots of interactions with men I've talked to them about their anxieties about their relationships, about their careers, about their finances. I've never seen a guy even slightly surprised that I would listen to him, empathize with him, and have even occasional helpful advice. Even my father who didn't really allow emotions could easily admit when he was lost or didn't know the answer. And I've never met a guy who was quite real about his feelings unable to have a fulfilling sexual relationship.
> 
> It just seems to me that it is helpful to learn that there actually is a different way to live --- if that's actually what you want.


the 80% stat is right out of the research. It is not made up. 

Here is the thing, assuming the research is correct, this is a hard wired issue. Most women don't want their man to appear weak, even though popular western culture is advising men to 'show their emotions'. Men would be prudent to follow the research, not the click bait on how to be a modern man. Their probability of success in marriage will go up. I am sure this is the case for most of the popular cr*p men are supposed to be. There is so much bs and lies thrown at boys and men today, I think they really never learn how to be a man. FWIW - most men I know don't want to be seen as weak....


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

wild jade said:


> And yet, the upshot of your story is that the empathetic woman gets the man, and the man gets laid by the empathetic woman.


But the real upshot is that it’s not a healthy relationship. She is just enabling his being a stunted child and in return she gets a stunted child as a mate. And as was perfectly predictable, it didn’t last.


----------



## Wolf1974

NobodySpecial said:


> I actually don't think MOST people have empathy, period. I CERTAINLY don't think most women are empathetic toward their husband's though I had no idea how epic the proportions. Question. *Why do men marry women like that? *Sincere question.


I addressed this earlier but the easiest answer is lack of available options. It’s not like you have a category of women who are empathetic and women who aren’t. From my experience, and what many other men here have shared, most women do not want vulnerability in thier partner. I am encouraged by what some women posted here but have never seen that result in real life......ever.


----------



## MJJEAN

ReturntoZero said:


> My favorite drink is Rum & Coke... in case anyone cares.


Bacardi or Captain? 



wild jade said:


> Not being able to even show a tiny moment of hesitation, never being able to admit that you are lost, or have doubt, or get ill, without being judged as failing to be a man sounds to me a very sad and hard way to live one's life. I certainly wouldn't be able to handle it.


I don't think that's what most people are describing. Women want emotional intimacy and for their men to be honest about their feelings, but not controlled by them or weakened by them for any extended period of time. It's a fine line to walk between being open and honest re: emotion and being perceived as a total puss. More detail in my reply to NaiveOneDave.



wild jade said:


> And yet, the upshot of your story is that the empathetic woman gets the man, and the man gets laid by the empathetic woman.


Meh, the military is hard on marriages and infidelity is rampant, so we don't even know if this was his first affair. Many marriages that survive the term of service don't survive retirement from the service. Too much a shock to the system. Not to mention, many affairs are about escapism and fantasy. RMY said the wife tried to be supportive and positive, tried to offer empathy, and then started to lose her patience when her H continued on with his whining. I'd say the story @Rocky Mountain Yeti relayed to us was more about a butthurt guy approaching middle age, making a major life and lifestyle transition, and looking for an escape form his reality than anything else. 

In other words, "empathy" was perhaps an excuse for losing his ****, getting all weak and needy, and then allowing that weakness to lead to an affair and, ultimately, the destruction of his family. Which, if we're assuming a faithful spouse til that point, probably would not have happened if he were a bit more stoic and in control of his emotions.




naiveonedave said:


> the 80% stat is right out of the research. It is not made up.
> 
> Here is the thing, assuming the research is correct, this is a hard wired issue. *Most women don't want their man to appear weak, even though popular western culture is advising men to 'show their emotions'. * Men would be prudent to follow the research, not the click bait on how to be a modern man. Their probability of success in marriage will go up. I am sure this is the case for most of the popular cr*p men are supposed to be. There is so much bs and lies thrown at boys and men today, I think they really never learn how to be a man. FWIW - most men I know don't want to be seen as weak....


As I said to Wild Jade, I think it's really about a fine line. Yes, women want emotional intimacy and for their man to be vulnerable with them, but within reason. As in all things, moderation.

The whole "Men, show your emotions!" was for a generation of men who were rarely demonstrably affectionate, didn't hug or touch much, didn't often say "I love you" because they showed it through action and thought that was enough, and who were stoic to the extreme. Successive generations have taken it way too far, imo.

I have had men cry in my lap and on my shoulder many times over the years. I have no problem comforting a man through emotional distress. I start to have a problem with it and see the man as weak when he continues on, crying and whining, for days. At that point, suck it up, buttercup, I'm fresh out of patience and starting to not give a damn.

As a woman, security is important to me. As an HD woman, so is sexual attraction. A man who is overly emotional, by my definition, is slave to his feelings, is weak, cannot make me feel secure, isn't sexually attractive, va-clang, friend zone. 

Will a man coming to me for sympathy/empathy cause va-clang? Not always, but it certainly can.


----------



## ReturntoZero

MJJEAN said:


> Bacardi or Captain?


Captain,

BTW, that was one excellent thoughtful post.


----------



## Faithful Wife

MJJEAN said:


> I have had men cry in my lap and on my shoulder many times over the years. I have no problem comforting a man through emotional distress. *I start to have a problem with it and see the man as weak when he continues on, crying and whining, for days.* At that point, suck it up, buttercup, I'm fresh out of patience and starting to not give a damn.
> 
> As a woman, security is important to me. As an HD woman, so is sexual attraction. A man who is overly emotional, by my definition, is slave to his feelings, is weak, cannot make me feel secure, isn't sexually attractive, va-clang, friend zone.
> 
> Will a man coming to me for sympathy/empathy cause va-clang? Not always, but it certainly can.


To the bolded....has this ever happened to you? This is what I can't really come to grips with. I do understand your point...I can't see a man having empathy with a woman beyond a certain point either if she was just going to fall apart and cry for days on end. I think we will all be sucked dry of empathy if dealing with a person who can't get their act back together after a crisis or whatever. I mean at that point, you simply have to refer someone to a mental health professional, yeah? But when you and other women have said this (the bolded), are you saying it from experience? 

I've just never seen a man act that way in a relationship with me, nor a man who is a "slave to his feelings" or generally "weak". So when women say these things and how they would definitely NOT be attracted to that, I'm like, but are those men real in your experience? Maybe other women have experienced these types of men and were greatly turned off to them to the point that showing vulnerability now reminds them of that weak man. And maybe since I've never experienced a man (or a woman for that matter) who was so emotionally weak that they cried for days on end, I just can't relate at all. If I had been that turned off by some man in my past, I could probably understand this more. I just don't understand why the example of the big crying baby man keeps getting brought up as if this is common in women's experience. :scratchhead:

But I'm also realizing that my attraction is apparently just wired differently than some women. I feel (similar to) the way men describe their feelings of attraction, as in, if I'm sexually attracted to my partner, it is mostly physical and basically, there isn't much that could happen that would change my attraction to him short of him drastically changing physically. His mood or his actions don't change the fact that he has that perfect ass or those amazing biceps or that incredible jaw line. If he's being a jerk (or I guess in these examples, a huge whiny baby) it still will not make me find him less attractive. I may not be in the mood for sex with someone who is being a jerk or a big baby, but I would still be looking at him and thinking "when are you going to get over this fit so we can get back to sexy time?"

Va-clang happens to me when HE doesn't have empathy for ME at a time when I need it from him, or if he is truly just being mean/a jerk to me. But even at those times, once the event passes, I'm back to attracted.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> But the real upshot is that it’s not a healthy relationship. She is just enabling his being a stunted child and in return she gets a stunted child as a mate. And as was perfectly predictable, it didn’t last.


I can definitely see how a woman could use empathy, whether real or faked, to get a man to "lean on" her and then ultimately fall for her. I asked someone earlier in this thread if he felt he might be vulnerable to a woman like that. And although it would be a horrible dirty trick, similar to a man faking emotions in order to get into a woman's pants, I'm sure it does happen.

On the other hand....there are women who have genuine empathy for men and others, and I really have no idea how a man would tell the difference.

If in the new stages of an affair, like the one you described, I bet the va-clang still wouldn't happen to that OW woman in the beginning because of new relationship hormones...but eventually if it was an act she would probably va-clang for him and then he would realize it? Maybe? 

I just know that the genuine empathy I've felt for various men over the years has been very real and very deserved by those men, and they accepted my empathy with grace and class without turning into big whiny babies. I am still shocked to hear so many stories of lacking empathy.

Though....I will say that I do think men lack empathy for women in certain situations (and in patterns that repeat themselves) but I'm not going to go there here...its just not worth it to stir the hive or make a point. I also don't think it is tit for tat, it is simply that men and women have different cultures and sometimes can't relate to each other's.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> it is simply that men and women have different cultures and sometimes can't relate to each other's.


Yes.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> But I'm also realizing that my attraction is apparently just wired differently than some women. I feel (similar to) the way men describe their feelings of attraction, as in, if I'm sexually attracted to my partner, it is mostly physical and basically, there isn't much that could happen that would change my attraction to him short of him drastically changing physically.


I've always thought that you were not "most women".


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> Why do men marry women like that? Sincere question.


Because most men don't value empathy from their spouse very much.

It's not that we want empathy from women so much as we would like it if women stopped telling us that they want something from us that, if we gave it to them, would often make them not want to have sex with us.

I especially wish young men would start getting more "real life" advice.


----------



## naiveonedave

Buddy400 said:


> I especially wish young men would start getting more "real life" advice.


this cannot be liked or repeated enough. I see this issue in spades with my 19 yo son. He has been brainwashed to be milk toast to women by school system, peers and the media. I spend all of my time with him trying to counteract this.....


----------



## ReturntoZero

Faithful Wife said:


> Va-clang happens to me when HE doesn't have empathy for ME at a time when I need it from him, or if he is truly just being mean/a jerk to me. But even at those times, once the event passes, I'm back to attracted.


We know.


----------



## ReturntoZero

naiveonedave said:


> this cannot be liked or repeated enough. I see this issue in spades with my 19 yo son. He has been brainwashed to be milk toast to women by school system, peers and the media. I spend all of my time with him trying to counteract this.....


And he doesn't buy it because you're his father.


----------



## naiveonedave

ReturntoZero said:


> And he doesn't buy it because you're his father.


I am getting to him. I finally got him away from a toxic ex-GF with severe issues. Count one for the good guys.

Part of the problem, too many people with influences that gain more 'respect' than parents, even though they don't know boo.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ReturntoZero said:


> We know.


I am sorry for repeating myself.


----------



## ReturntoZero

naiveonedave said:


> I am getting to him. I finally got him away from a toxic ex-GF with severe issues. Count one for the good guys.
> 
> Part of the problem, too many people with influences that gain more 'respect' than parents, even though they don't know boo.


Have I ever mentioned that human beings have one helluva hard time getting out of their own way?


----------



## ReturntoZero

On a personal note, there's a gal here that gives "great" advice - to men. In fact, she really busts their balls. It's sometimes fun - and often humorous - to read.

In her personal life?

She admits that she "rents her husband's erection" twice a month or so, but if only he would.....

THEN she'd REALLY swoon for him.

Have I mentioned human beings really have difficulty getting out of their own way?

Why not make that day today?

In my own life, I have yet another precipice dance going on.

So tiresome.


----------



## NobodySpecial

naiveonedave said:


> the 80% stat is right out of the research. It is not made up.
> 
> Here is the thing, assuming the research is correct, this is a hard wired issue. Most women don't want their man to appear weak, even though popular western culture is advising men to 'show their emotions'. Men would be prudent to follow the research, not the click bait on how to be a modern man. Their probability of *success in marriage will go up*. I am sure this is the case for most of the popular cr*p men are supposed to be. There is so much bs and lies thrown at boys and men today, I think they really never learn how to be a man. FWIW - most men I know don't want to be seen as weak....


What does that "success" look like? Remain married? Get laid every once in a while? Doesn't sound like much of a marriage to me.


----------



## NobodySpecial

ReturntoZero said:


> Simple answer.
> 
> They're attracted to them.
> 
> That's the reason men get married.


That's IT? THAT is why people get married? No damned wonder there is so much divorce.


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> That's IT? THAT is why people get married? No damned wonder there is so much divorce.


Haha, that's actually one of the better reasons to get married. Marrying someone and not being attracted is IMO far worse


----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> Haha, that's actually one of the better reasons to get married. Marrying someone and not being attracted is IMO far worse


How about being attracted to them, think highly of their character, share a sense of humor, enjoy a lot of the same things and/or learning things? How about marrying someone you are attracted to who also makes you try to be a better person as you do them?


----------



## naiveonedave

NobodySpecial said:


> What does that "success" look like? Remain married? Get laid every once in a while? Doesn't sound like much of a marriage to me.


If you are a single male, you need to understand that most of what the mainstream tells you about women is at best half truths. If 80% of the women va-clang when you show them you weak side, it isn't in your best interests to do so, unless a) you know your GF is in the 20% or you are fine with getting dumped or becoming an orbiter.

Success is a healthy marriage/relationship. Most men can have a healthy relationship w/o crying in front of their W, ever. if you can't be that guy, you need the facts to help you pick wisely. 4:1 odds are not good in the dating game.


----------



## As'laDain

inmyprime said:


> Haha, that's actually one of the better reasons to get married. Marrying someone and not being attracted is IMO far worse


i wasn't very attracted to my wife for the first few years of our marriage. wasn't very attracted to her before i married her either. 

its very different now. i pretty much cant keep my hands off of her. 

we experience attraction as an emotion. as desire. what happens when you wake up one day and realize you are no longer attracted to your spouse? or if she does something that repulses you so much that your attraction to her evaporates? 

if you get married for other reasons, its not the end of the marriage. in my case, i was too damn stubborn to leave "well enough" alone. i wanted a vibrant and FUN sex life. i wanted her to have so much fun with it that it was worth her while to engage, so i had to make it worth her while. 

took us a while to figure it out, but we did. and now nothing seems insurmountable.


----------



## naiveonedave

NobodySpecial said:


> How about being attracted to them, think highly of their character, share a sense of humor, enjoy a lot of the same things and/or learning things? How about marrying someone you are attracted to who also makes you try to be a better person as you do them?


Your answer of why to get married. I like to say it this way: I met my future W, thought she was incredibly hot. It was love at first sight. Then we got to know each and learned that share a sense of humor, enjoy doing stuff together, then we got married. I did learn that showing weakness without a plan to confront it was a losing situation early in marriage. She is in the 80%.


----------



## NobodySpecial

naiveonedave said:


> Your answer of why to get married. I like to say it this way: I met my future W, thought she was incredibly hot. It was love at first sight. Then we got to know each and learned that share a sense of humor, enjoy doing stuff together, then we got married. I did learn that showing weakness without a plan to confront it was a losing situation early in marriage. She is in the 80%.


I think I would have taken a pass. [ETA] Empathy IS a matter of character. I notice you left out character.


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## naiveonedave

NobodySpecial said:


> I think I would have taken a pass. [ETA] Empathy IS a matter of character. I notice you left out character.


actually so did you re: character. 

Empathy in this thread is NOT a function of character, in so much as it is a hard wired need in most of the female population.


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## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> How about being attracted to them, think highly of their character, share a sense of humor, enjoy a lot of the same things and/or learning things? How about marrying someone you are attracted to who also makes you try to be a better person as you do them?


Yeah yeah that's all great & dandy but attraction should always be at the root...If it's not there then the rest goes out of the window.
That's what i am going to try and teach my kids anyway. My wife can teach them to find good people etc. I am no good at this..


----------



## Blondilocks

As'laDain said:


> i wasn't very attracted to my wife for the first few years of our marriage. wasn't very attracted to her before i married her either.
> 
> its very different now. i pretty much cant keep my hands off of her.
> 
> we experience attraction as an emotion. as desire. what happens when you wake up one day and realize you are no longer attracted to your spouse? or if she does something that repulses you so much that your attraction to her evaporates?
> 
> if you get married for other reasons, its not the end of the marriage. in my case, i was too damn stubborn to leave "well enough" alone. i wanted a vibrant and FUN sex life. i wanted her to have so much fun with it that it was worth her while to engage, so i had to make it worth her while.
> 
> took us a while to figure it out, but we did. and now nothing seems insurmountable.


Considering that you are demi-sexual, I find your whole marriage and how it came to be fascinating. You are a bit of a curiosity (said in a good way).


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## As'laDain

Blondilocks said:


> Considering that you are demi-sexual, I find your whole marriage and how it came to be fascinating. You are a bit of a curiosity (said in a good way).


yeah, nobody has ever accused me of being "Normal People(TM)". lol

I am a firm believer that any two people can fall in love, if they really want to. the issue in our modern western society is that most people view love as something that grows from an emotion, instead of as a choice. 

if two people refuse to love each other unless it makes them feel good to do so, then they might as well be leaves blown in the wind. i would rather have the kind of love that says "i choose to love you because you choose to love me" than "i choose to love you today because today it feels good". 

with one, there is real intimacy, real vulnerability, and real safety. with the other, well, there is today...


----------



## ReturntoZero

NobodySpecial said:


> That's IT? THAT is why people get married? No damned wonder there is so much divorce.


We're wired on a pretty basic level.

I do wish women married more for attraction - or at least would factor it in higher.

When they do not - and find themselves attracted to someone else - well, you can read this board.


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## 269370

As'laDain said:


> i wasn't very attracted to my wife for the first few years of our marriage. wasn't very attracted to her before i married her either.
> 
> 
> 
> its very different now. i pretty much cant keep my hands off of her.
> 
> 
> 
> we experience attraction as an emotion. as desire. what happens when you wake up one day and realize you are no longer attracted to your spouse? or if she does something that repulses you so much that your attraction to her evaporates?
> 
> 
> 
> if you get married for other reasons, its not the end of the marriage. in my case, i was too damn stubborn to leave "well enough" alone. i wanted a vibrant and FUN sex life. i wanted her to have so much fun with it that it was worth her while to engage, so i had to make it worth her while.
> 
> 
> 
> took us a while to figure it out, but we did. and now nothing seems insurmountable.




Interesting. I have never met or heard of anyone who found attraction later on by using their intellect (or I’m not sure how you made yourself attracted to her). Could there have been something else that was suppressing your attraction? (Stress, another partner/girlfriend etc?)

Attraction is something that is raw, uncontrollable and exists on a biological level. Not something (I thought) you can make yourself become.
You can want to be with a partner for many different reasons but if you also want to be having sex with them, I’m not sure how you can avoid having attraction at the root.
If anything, people are more likely to loose attraction or become less attracted over time, not the other way around.
Strange.


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## 269370

As'laDain said:


> yeah, nobody has ever accused me of being "Normal People(TM)". lol
> 
> 
> 
> I am a firm believer that any two people can fall in love, if they really want to. the issue in our modern western society is that most people view love as something that grows from an emotion, instead of as a choice.
> 
> 
> 
> if two people refuse to love each other unless it makes them feel good to do so, then they might as well be leaves blown in the wind. i would rather have the kind of love that says "i choose to love you because you choose to love me" than "i choose to love you today because today it feels good".
> 
> 
> 
> with one, there is real intimacy, real vulnerability, and real safety. with the other, well, there is today...



Love grows as emotion in modern society? I would have thought it was the other way around: animals have ‘desire’ on a biological level, not because they ‘choose to’. The truism was always that you can’t choose love, it chooses you 
You can have all those other things you mention with attraction being at the root. Also you don’t typically loose attraction for someone overnight.
It’s possible that your sexual drive works very differently. Or maybe we are talking about different things. For example I cannot do one night stands (even with someone I may find superficially attractive) because I need time to ‘get used to’ the new partner. I then can’t wanting them, sexually. But at first, it feels weird or maybe I have some block but I wouldn’t feel comfortable having sex with someone new. But I do feel the attraction even if my ‘hormones’ have not bonded me to the new partner yet.
Maybe you are more keenly aware of your hormones than others?


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## 269370

ReturntoZero said:


> We're wired on a pretty basic level.
> 
> 
> 
> I do wish women married more for attraction - or at least would factor it in higher.
> 
> 
> 
> When they do not - and find themselves attracted to someone else - well, you can read this board.




Yes, I was going to say exactly that but thought maybe it was borderline sexist.


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----------



## EleGirl

ReturntoZero said:


> We're wired on a pretty basic level.
> 
> I do wish women married more for attraction - or at least would factor it in higher.
> 
> When they do not - and find themselves attracted to someone else - well, you can read this board.


Yet, men putting attraction high on the scale does not stop infidelity either. Since men cheat at a higher rate than women do, it would seem that attraction in picking a mate has little to no impact on a person's (male or female) choice to cheat.


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## Notself

EleGirl said:


> Yet, men putting attraction high on the scale does not stop infidelity either. Since men cheat at a higher rate than women do, it would seem that attraction in picking a mate has little to no impact on a person's (male or female) choice to cheat.


It is possible that the ones who cheat aren't the ones putting attraction high on the scale. Just because both numbers are high doesn't mean that they're related to each other in any way.

Also - not that I disbelieve you, but where do you find the statistic that says men cheat more than women?


----------



## 269370

EleGirl said:


> Yet, men putting attraction high on the scale does not stop infidelity either. Since men cheat at a higher rate than women do, it would seem that attraction in picking a mate has little to no impact on a person's (male or female) choice to cheat.




I’m not sure it’s so clear. Men have more ONS than women but women seem to engage in more affairs than men.


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## minimalME

inmyprime said:


> Yeah yeah that's all great & dandy but attraction should always be at the root...If it's not there then the rest goes out of the window.





ReturntoZero said:


> We're wired on a pretty basic level.
> 
> I do wish women married more for attraction - or at least would factor it in higher.
> 
> When they do not - and find themselves attracted to someone else - well, you can read this board.





inmyprime said:


> Interesting. I have never met or heard of anyone who found attraction later on by using their intellect (or I’m not sure how you made yourself attracted to her). Could there have been something else that was suppressing your attraction? (Stress, another partner/girlfriend etc?)
> 
> Attraction is something that is raw, uncontrollable and exists on a biological level. Not something (I thought) you can make yourself become.
> You can want to be with a partner for many different reasons but if you also want to be having sex with them, I’m not sure how you can avoid having attraction at the root.
> If anything, people are more likely to loose attraction or become less attracted over time, not the other way around.
> Strange.


In my experience, attraction can definitely be built over time.

I can meet people who're considered very attractive, but as I get to know them, because of their personality/character/quirks (or lack thereof) they become less attractive, and there's little desire to spend time around them.

On the other hand, people who're considered less attractive (even ugly) can be amazing individuals who're very charismatic and winsome.

And, of course, attraction mean different things to different people. Initially, I tend to look for men who're in shape. I listen to voices, and I like strong hands.  

I don't think that people cheat because they're no longer physically attracted to their spouse. Gorgeous (or famous) movie stars/rock stars/models cheat on their gorgeous/famous spouses all the time. (The example that first came to mind was Halle Berry, who was cheated on. And Arnold Schwarzenegger having a child with maid Mildred Baena??? I don't find either Arnold or Maria attractive, but to cheat with Mildred is pretty hard to swallow.)

And in terms of empathy, there's a huge difference between a man being vulnerable and expressing emotion (ex. over someone dying), verses a man who's just weak cause that's who he is. Personally, I'd appreciate the former, and loathe the latter.


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## 269370

minimalME said:


> In my experience, attraction can definitely be built over time.
> 
> 
> 
> I can meet people who're considered very attractive, but as I get to know them, because of their personality/character/quirks (or lack thereof) they become less attractive, and there's little desire to spend time around them.
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand, people who're considered less attractive (even ugly) can be amazing individuals who're very charismatic and winsome.
> 
> 
> 
> And, of course, attraction mean different things to different people. Initially, I tend to look for men who're in shape. I listen to voices, and I like strong hands.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that people cheat because they're no longer physically attracted to their spouse. Gorgeous (or famous) movie stars/rock stars/models cheat on their gorgeous/famous spouses all the time. (The example that first came to mind was Halle Berry, who was cheated on. And Arnold Schwarzenegger having a child with maid Mildred Baena??? I don't find either Arnold or Maria attractive, but to cheat with Mildred is pretty hard to swallow.)
> 
> 
> 
> And in terms of empathy, there's a huge difference between a man being vulnerable and expressing emotion (ex. over someone dying), verses a man who's just weak cause that's who he is. Personally, I'd appreciate the former, and loathe the latter.




Also interesting. It means attraction works slightly differently for women then as well. If I wasn’t attracted to a woman in the first place, no matter what happens, it won’t increase significantly from the base level. I may get used to having sex with her and it may even feel good but there will be something missing and I will always be longing for something else. I almost wish it was different because it may come across as superficial but that’s the truth. It’s like eating you dish you didn’t crave for; you will stop yourself from being hungry but will still not be completely satisfied.
Fortunately I have never met a woman that I’m more attracted to than my wife. (Or unfortunately, because I am not always 100% certain it’s the same for her. But since attraction works differently for women, it may be ok because I will just have to work for it harder 


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----------



## 269370

minimalME said:


> In my experience, attraction can definitely be built over time.
> 
> 
> 
> I can meet people who're considered very attractive, but as I get to know them, because of their personality/character/quirks (or lack thereof) they become less attractive, and there's little desire to spend time around them.
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand, people who're considered less attractive (even ugly) can be amazing individuals who're very charismatic and winsome.
> 
> 
> 
> And, of course, attraction mean different things to different people. Initially, I tend to look for men who're in shape. I listen to voices, and I like strong hands.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that people cheat because they're no longer physically attracted to their spouse. Gorgeous (or famous) movie stars/rock stars/models cheat on their gorgeous/famous spouses all the time. (The example that first came to mind was Halle Berry, who was cheated on. And Arnold Schwarzenegger having a child with maid Mildred Baena??? I don't find either Arnold or Maria attractive, but to cheat with Mildred is pretty hard to swallow.)
> 
> 
> 
> And in terms of empathy, there's a huge difference between a man being vulnerable and expressing emotion (ex. over someone dying), verses a man who's just weak cause that's who he is. Personally, I'd appreciate the former, and loathe the latter.




Yeah she’s also obsessed with my hands sometimes. What’s up with that. It’s like the last thing I would notice on a woman...


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## minimalME

inmyprime said:


> Yeah she’s also obsessed with my hands sometimes. What’s up with that. It’s like the last thing I would notice on a woman...


Really? So if a woman bites her nails or just generally has ugly hands, that wouldn't bother you?

I don't know what it is. I like the thought of men who work with their hands. I like rough, strong hands that do hard work. And I kind of like rough, imperfect looking guys in general. I don't care for blue collar hands, and I don't like faces that are too pretty.

It's not really fair cause, to me, men get SO much better looking as they age. I really like the scars and lines on a man's face. And, generally speaking, unattractive boys can become very attractive men. 

Unfortunately, it's not the same for women.


----------



## wild jade

Faithful Wife said:


> T
> 
> I've just never seen a man act that way in a relationship with me, nor a man who is a "slave to his feelings" or generally "weak". So when women say these things and how they would definitely NOT be attracted to that, I'm like, but are those men real in your experience? Maybe other women have experienced these types of men and were greatly turned off to them to the point that showing vulnerability now reminds them of that weak man. And maybe since I've never experienced a man (or a woman for that matter) who was so emotionally weak that they cried for days on end, I just can't relate at all. If I had been that turned off by some man in my past, I could probably understand this more. I just don't understand why the example of the big crying baby man keeps getting brought up as if this is common in women's experience. :scratchhead:
> 
> But I'm also realizing that my attraction is apparently just wired differently than some women. I feel (similar to) the way men describe their feelings of attraction, as in, if I'm sexually attracted to my partner, it is mostly physical and basically, there isn't much that could happen that would change my attraction to him short of him drastically changing physically. His mood or his actions don't change the fact that he has that perfect ass or those amazing biceps or that incredible jaw line. If he's being a jerk (or I guess in these examples, a huge whiny baby) it still will not make me find him less attractive. I may not be in the mood for sex with someone who is being a jerk or a big baby, but I would still be looking at him and thinking "when are you going to get over this fit so we can get back to sexy time?"
> 
> Va-clang happens to me when HE doesn't have empathy for ME at a time when I need it from him, or if he is truly just being mean/a jerk to me. But even at those times, once the event passes, I'm back to attracted.


For me, the physical is only a part of the equation, and personality is also very important. A bigot, for example? Va-clang. Trump supporter? Va-clang. Dumb as a post or general jerk? Va-clang.

But if I am attracted to a guy, I won't get turned off because he's had a bad day or is struggling with whatever issues.

And I also don't get this constant reference to whiny cry-baby men. It's almost as though one single whiff of not being 100% in charge makes you a whiny cry-baby. Really? IME the people most likely to ride guys for being pussies (or whatever) are other men. Not women.

I do know one guy who might qualify as a whiny cry-baby. He spends most of his time moping and demanding that other people do stuff to cater to him. But as far as I can tell, no woman will even go on a second date with him, let alone marry him. 

Is that the type of guy we're talking about here? :scratchhead:


----------



## As'laDain

inmyprime said:


> Interesting. I have never met or heard of anyone who found attraction later on by using their intellect (or I’m not sure how you made yourself attracted to her). Could there have been something else that was suppressing your attraction? (Stress, another partner/girlfriend etc?)
> 
> Attraction is something that is raw, uncontrollable and exists on a biological level. Not something (I thought) you can make yourself become.
> You can want to be with a partner for many different reasons but if you also want to be having sex with them, I’m not sure how you can avoid having attraction at the root.
> If anything, people are more likely to loose attraction or become less attracted over time, not the other way around.
> Strange.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


it was easy to find out what changes i needed her to make that would cause her to be more attractive to me. lose weight, exercise, improve her hygiene, smile and laugh more often instead of sulking and *****ing all day long... etc. 

when i married her, my wife was 40 pounds over weight, had no social life, was crippled by social anxiety, was angry all the time, had poor hygiene, and never smiled. a LOT has changed since then.


----------



## Laurentium

I guess the empathy thing is complicated. I have often seen women turned off by a man's showing distress, even in circumstances such as someone close to them dying. And this is an unconscious process - I am suspicious of anyone who says "_Oh I wouldn't do that_". 

As a man, I am fine with a woman showing emotion, and am used to empathising with it.
What I'm not so good with is things like
- I win this argument because emotions
- I get to behave badly because emotions
- I escape responsibility because emotions etc. 

I imagine these things are even more unacceptable to women. 

The usual spin that people get into seems to be
- one doesn't acknowledge / respond to the other's emotion
- the other turns it up a notch because they feel "unheard"
- the first blocks it out even more because it seems unreasonable
and round and round it goes.


----------



## 269370

minimalME said:


> Really? So if a woman bites her nails or just generally has ugly hands, that wouldn't bother you?


Nope, wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Besides, i have never seen 'ugly hands' on a woman. Don't even know what I am supposed to be looking out for :scratchhead:
I mean the amount of resources women spend on manicures/pedicures etc without any idea that most men are not that bothered by it...I actually prefer when wife hasn't done a pedicure because when I suck her toes, they taste differently.
There maybe other reasons I might not find a woman attractive who bites her nails all the time: I am not that into neurotic women. I like grounded, confident women, who are genuine and don't say stuff what men want to hear.
I also don't like 'dolled up' women. Because when all the make up comes off, I don't want to be surprised...
Not sure why I am bringing this up as it's not really relevant but it's interesting to compare what matters to men vs women.




minimalME said:


> I don't know what it is. I like the thought of men who work with their hands. I like rough, strong hands that do hard work. And I kind of like rough, imperfect looking guys in general. I don't care for blue collar hands, and I don't like faces that are too pretty.
> 
> It's not really fair cause, to me, men get SO much better looking as they age. I really like the scars and lines on a man's face. And, generally speaking, unattractive boys can become very attractive men.
> 
> Unfortunately, it's not the same for women.


I don't know. My wife is in mid thirties and she has never been more attractive. Maybe that'll change but we both will be older. 
I think my wife also prefers 'charismatic' looking men (not sure about the scars...did you date scarface? :wink2, not eye candy.


----------



## 269370

minimalME said:


> I don't think that people cheat because they're no longer physically attracted to their spouse. Gorgeous (or famous) movie stars/rock stars/models cheat on their gorgeous/famous spouses all the time. (The example that first came to mind was Halle Berry, who was cheated on. And Arnold Schwarzenegger having a child with maid Mildred Baena??? I don't find either Arnold or Maria attractive, but to cheat with Mildred is pretty hard to swallow.)


About this, I also wondered why some men downgrade when they cheat (women do that too btw). For men (especially celebrities), i think it's because they can, it's a power thing. But could also be because of 'variety'. I had some guy friends who were sweaty and cringing before getting married because they panicked that there will only be one *****  for the rest of their lives. I used to say that they should check their math, because there will actually be none...
The variety thing never bothered me. Once I find a good one, that's all I want. The challenge is (or used to be), how to be wanted back.


----------



## 269370

wild jade said:


> For me, the physical is only a part of the equation, and personality is also very important. A bigot, for example? Va-clang. Trump supporter? Va-clang. Dumb as a post or general jerk? Va-clang.
> 
> But if I am attracted to a guy, I won't get turned off because he's had a bad day or is struggling with whatever issues.
> 
> And I also don't get this constant reference to whiny cry-baby men. It's almost as though one single whiff of not being 100% in charge makes you a whiny cry-baby. Really? IME the people most likely to ride guys for being pussies (or whatever) are other men. Not women.
> 
> I do know one guy who might qualify as a whiny cry-baby. He spends most of his time moping and demanding that other people do stuff to cater to him. But as far as I can tell, no woman will even go on a second date with him, let alone marry him.
> 
> Is that the type of guy we're talking about here? :scratchhead:


In the interest of equality (yey, feminism!), maybe it's time to start a thread on high maintenance women (pe-lonk! That was the sound of penis falling off). >


----------



## 269370

As'laDain said:


> it was easy to find out what changes i needed her to make that would cause her to be more attractive to me. lose weight, exercise, improve her hygiene, smile and laugh more often instead of sulking and *****ing all day long... etc.
> 
> when i married her, my wife was 40 pounds over weight, had no social life, was crippled by social anxiety, was angry all the time, had poor hygiene, and never smiled. a LOT has changed since then.


Gosh, where did you find her? Was her name Friday? Joking 
Sounds like you found yourself a real undervalued bargain and remodelled it  Or perhaps you are a motivational coach? Either way, you should do it for a living!

About hygiene: Maybe I am weird but I don't like doing stuff when she just got out of the shower. All I can taste is soap! No good.


----------



## minimalME

inmyprime said:


> About this, I also wondered why some men downgrade when they cheat (women do that too btw). For men (especially celebrities), i think it's because they can, it's a power thing. But could also be because of 'variety'. I had some guy friends who were sweaty and cringing before getting married because they panicked that there will only be one *****  for the rest of their lives. I used to say that they should check their math, because there will actually be none...
> The variety thing never bothered me. Once I find a good one, that's all I want. The challenge is (or used to be), how to be wanted back.


A power thing - agreed.

It's interesting that some men worry that once they marry, there'll be no variety, because sooo many relationship articles and books talk about how we (women) don't have a magical *****, and that a vagina is a vagina.


----------



## 269370

I really don't believe it's a thing. It's completely natural to be devastated when someone died and any partner, even one that doesn't like you very much will be understanding and consoling in this moment. I think what's more likely to happen is that men get too sensitive, after showing vulnerability. Perhaps it is not that natural for some women to interact with an emotional man and he will mistake her awkward behaviour for lack of empathy.



Laurentium said:


> I guess the empathy thing is complicated. I have often seen women turned off by a man's showing distress, *even in circumstances such as someone close to them dying.* And this is an unconscious process - I am suspicious of anyone who says "_Oh I wouldn't do that_".
> 
> As a man, I am fine with a woman showing emotion, and am used to empathising with it.
> What I'm not so good with is things like
> - I win this argument because emotions
> - I get to behave badly because emotions
> - I escape responsibility because emotions etc.
> 
> I imagine these things are even more unacceptable to women.
> 
> The usual spin that people get into seems to be
> - one doesn't acknowledge / respond to the other's emotion
> - the other turns it up a notch because they feel "unheard"
> - the first blocks it out even more because it seems unreasonable
> and round and round it goes.


----------



## 269370

minimalME said:


> A power thing - agreed.
> 
> It's interesting that some men worry that once they marry, there'll be no variety, because sooo many relationship articles and books talk about how we (women) don't have a magical *****, and that a vagina is a vagina.


That's what I thought but apparently there are these vaginas that va-klang all the time...so maybe that may also have something to do with it...

Whatever, vaginas are the best! :iagree::yay::cat:


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

minimalME said:


> A power thing - agreed.
> 
> It's interesting that some men worry that once they marry, there'll be no variety, because sooo many relationship articles and books talk about how we (women) don't have a magical *****, and that a vagina is a vagina.


Or they don't worry... when they should have.


----------



## minimalME

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Or they don't worry... when they should have.


Well, no marriage is perfect - right?

I try to remind myself of that when I feel lonely.


----------



## MJJEAN

ReturntoZero said:


> Captain,
> 
> BTW, that was one excellent thoughtful post.


Thank you.

If you ever get a yen for something slightly different, try mixing Captain Spiced with Dr Pepper. One of my winter favorites.



Faithful Wife said:


> To the bolded....has this ever happened to you? This is what I can't really come to grips with. I do understand your point...I can't see a man having empathy with a woman beyond a certain point either if she was just going to fall apart and cry for days on end. I think we will all be sucked dry of empathy if dealing with a person who can't get their act back together after a crisis or whatever. I mean at that point, you simply have to refer someone to a mental health professional, yeah? But when you and other women have said this (the bolded), are you saying it from experience?
> 
> I've just never seen a man act that way in a relationship with me, nor a man who is a "slave to his feelings" or generally "weak". I just don't understand why the example of the big crying baby man keeps getting brought up as if this is common in women's experience. :scratchhead:
> 
> But I'm also realizing that my attraction is apparently just wired differently than some women.


Yes, I am speaking from experience. Sometimes, there were defining moments when a guy said or behaved in ways I perceived as weak, needy, helpless, or prissy and my interest vanished. Other times, it was a cumulative effect over a period of hours/days in each others company.

I wonder if our definitions of "weak" and "slave to feelings" are different? I'm a pretty hard woman and I just can't be into men who aren't my equal, I guess. I think it's ok to have feelings, but not to allow them to control your actions, make you non-functional, or to cause a certain level of inconvenience to others. Feel it and power through, I suppose. I like a man who can take life's gut punch, suck in his breath, and stand tall. I can't abide a guy who has a shock and starts looking for a fainting couch and smelling salts.

Unfortunately, I know more big crying man-babies than men. By a fairly large margin. Lot of whining, helplessness, and "life's not fair" bullshyte from the snowflakes. 

My attraction also works similarly to a man's, but I have had men open their mouths or do something to instantly kill it. It's like seeing something on a website you really, really, want. Then you go to the brick and mortar store, find the item, and notice it has a fatal flaw. Once the fatal flaw has been discovered, you no longer want the item and move on to something else.



ReturntoZero said:


> We're wired on a pretty basic level.
> 
> I do wish women married more for attraction - or at least would factor it in higher.
> 
> When they do not - and find themselves attracted to someone else - well, you can read this board.


I'm pretty much wired the same as a man. When I was looking for a mate, I started with attraction. Then I gauged sexual compatibility. If both checked out, I'd start evaluating other areas of compatibility.

I totally agree that people should factor attraction a bit higher when considering a marriage partner. I believe that love, sex and sexual attraction, and commitment, all take turns holding a marriage together long term and if one of those areas is weak the chances of failure are higher.



inmyprime said:


> Attraction is something that is raw, uncontrollable and exists on a biological level. Not something (I thought) you can make yourself become.
> You can want to be with a partner for many different reasons but if you also want to be having sex with them, I’m not sure how you can avoid having attraction at the root.


How many homosexuals wish they could be attracted to someone they care about of the opposite sex? How many friend pairs would be perfect for each other if only they could feel attraction? Many, many, people have tried to manufacture attraction. Some with the help of therapists. I've rarely, and I mean rarely, ever heard someone say they did it. Most just accept a life without attraction or end their relationships to seek out partners they are attracted to.



inmyprime said:


> If I wasn’t attracted to a woman in the first place, no matter what happens, it won’t increase significantly from the base level. I may get used to having sex with her and it may even feel good but there will be something missing and I will always be longing for something else. I almost wish it was different because it may come across as superficial but that’s the truth. It’s like eating you dish you didn’t crave for; you will stop yourself from being hungry but will still not be completely satisfied.


So much this.


----------



## Faithful Wife

wild jade said:


> For me, the physical is only a part of the equation, and personality is also very important. *A bigot, for example? Va-clang. Trump supporter? Va-clang. Dumb as a post or general jerk? Va-clang.*
> 
> But if I am attracted to a guy, I won't get turned off because he's had a bad day or is struggling with whatever issues.
> 
> And I also don't get this constant reference to whiny cry-baby men. It's almost as though one single whiff of not being 100% in charge makes you a whiny cry-baby. Really? IME the people most likely to ride guys for being pussies (or whatever) are other men. Not women.
> 
> I do know one guy who might qualify as a whiny cry-baby. He spends most of his time moping and demanding that other people do stuff to cater to him. But as far as I can tell, no woman will even go on a second date with him, let alone marry him.
> 
> Is that the type of guy we're talking about here? :scratchhead:


On the bolded....me too, however since I would never go on a second date with such a guy, there wouldn't even be the chance for va-clang to happen because va-ching wouldn't ever even get started. So it is a moot point. For me, the only relevance is within a relationship where attraction has already been established, else there'd be no relationship. Not really much point talking about who we would *not* be attracted to if that person will never, ever even get near you. Which is why I'm so confused about the big whiny crying baby man everyone is so quick to point out. :scratchhead:

(I know you get what I'm saying though, Jade, and thanks)


----------



## Faithful Wife

MJJEAN said:


> Yes, I am speaking from experience. Sometimes, there were defining moments when a guy said or behaved in ways I perceived as weak, needy, helpless, or prissy and my interest vanished. Other times, it was a cumulative effect over a period of hours/days in each others company.
> 
> I wonder if our definitions of "weak" and "slave to feelings" are different? I'm a pretty hard woman and I just can't be into men who aren't my equal, I guess. I think it's ok to have feelings, but not to allow them to control your actions, make you non-functional, or to cause a certain level of inconvenience to others. Feel it and power through, I suppose. I like a man who can take life's gut punch, suck in his breath, and stand tall. I can't abide a guy who has a shock and starts looking for a fainting couch and smelling salts.
> 
> Unfortunately, *I know more big crying man-babies than men. By a fairly large margin. Lot of whining, helplessness, and "life's not fair" bullshyte from the snowflakes.*


Wow....I don't know any men I would describe this way. Maybe because most of the men in my family were farmers? I'm not sure how I escaped knowing any men like this if you know several of them, though. Maybe we live in very different worlds. I don't live near any farming community any more and have lived in Portland, OR (big-small city) for 30 years now. And I live in the part of Portland that is very diverse and hip...seemingly there might be a lot of "puffy" guys around here, ones that might tend toward whiny behavior, but that's not what I have encountered. 

When you say things like "I can't abide a guy who has a shock and starts looking for a fainting couch and smelling salts" it is just so confusing to me because the language used implies that this is so bad and happens so often that it deserves this level of "ick" when talking about it. Yet I've literally never known any man I'd describe in such terms with so much "ick". So I'm still kind of :scratchhead::scratchhead:

Much MORE common for me to observe are men who are simply creeps, jerks, or asshats. Not that I know many of them either, but I can see enough of them on the peripheral that I know I'd never ever want to be around one of them (regardless of how hot he might be). Though I'm aware of just as many horrible asshat women out there too so there being so many jerky men isn't really disproportionate, it is a certain percent of the population in all genders, I believe.


----------



## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> I’m not sure it’s so clear. Men have more ONS than women but women seem to engage in more affairs than men.


This sounds like your personal assumption. I don't think it's correct. I do think that there are some men who have lots of ONS and use prostitutes as well. But there are a lot of men who have long term affairs. 

And, IMHO, a man who has a lot of ONS is no better than a woman who has an affair. They are both really bad people and cause just as much harm.


----------



## 269370

EleGirl said:


> This sounds like your personal assumption. I don't think it's correct. I do think that there are some men who have lots of ONS and use prostitutes as well. But there are a lot of men who have long term affairs.
> 
> 
> 
> And, IMHO, a man who has a lot of ONS is no better than a woman who has an affair. They are both really bad people and cause just as much harm.




Yeah, I pretty much pulled it out of my backside. But that’s how it comes across reading threads on here. 
The problem is that there aren’t as many women who will admit to cheating (why would they? For some stupid statistic?).

I also don’t necessarily see it as black and white that infidelity is always bad or destructive. Imagine a wife with a violent husband who would beat her. She leaves him for another guy who is nicer (and saves her life). Nobody really knows what goes on behind closed doors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> Yeah, I pretty much pulled it out of my backside. But that’s how it comes across reading threads on here.
> The problem is that there aren’t as many women who will admit to cheating (why would they? For some stupid statistic?).
> 
> I also don’t necessarily see it as black and white that infidelity is always bad or destructive. Imagine a wife with a violent husband who would beat her. She leaves him for another guy who is nicer (and saves her life). Nobody really knows what goes on behind closed doors.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your example, while completely sympathetic, doesn't seem to apply.

If she leaves her husband, she's not cheating.


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Your example, while completely sympathetic, doesn't seem to apply.
> 
> If she leaves her husband, she's not cheating.


I must have omitted the bit where she had an exit affair with him in the meantime. She would not have had the strength to leave if she didn't find a suitable partner first. Which is what happens all over the place in real life. In an ideal world, yes, she should break up first, then go. But we don't live in an ideal world.
That's just a crude example anyway. There are so many grey area instances...where it can even be beneficial (where the marriage is already dying anyway but neither have the guts to break things off and a cheating spouse gives a clear excuse to break it up what's already been dead for years). Cheating is not always a crime, unlike it is mostly portrayed here.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> I must have omitted the bit where she had an exit affair with him in the meantime. She would not have had the strength to leave if she didn't find a suitable partner first. Which is what happens all over the place in real life. In an ideal world, yes, she should break up first, then go. But we don't live in an ideal world.
> That's just a crude example anyway. There are so many grey area instances...where it can even be beneficial (where the marriage is already dying anyway but neither have the guts to break things off and a cheating spouse gives a clear excuse to break it up what's already been dead for years). Cheating is not always a crime, unlike it is mostly portrayed here.


If you need out of an abusive relationship, that should be your one and only focus. Another relationship is the last thing you should be looking for. Family, friends, church, or even the local battered womens shelters should be your first stop, not another man. Even setting aside any moral discussion of if/when it's ever acceptable to cheat, out of the frying pan into the fire is a high risk proposition, especially for someone in a fragile state of mind that is almost certainly clouding their judgment. I'm not saying, as many would, that there is is an absolute here, but that if there are valid exceptions, they are rare and extreme.

As to the second scenario, which is far less extreme, at least in the sense of urgency required merely for survival, a similar logic applies, with even clearer relevance. If you "don't have the guts" to end a dying relationship, you surely don't have the foundation to start a new relationship. If you can't be straight with your current partner, there's nothing to indicate you can be straight with a new partner.


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> If you need out of an abusive relationship, that should be your one and only focus. Another relationship is the last thing you should be looking for. Family, friends, church, or even the local battered womens shelters should be your first stop, not another man. Even setting aside any moral discussion of if/when it's ever acceptable to cheat, out of the frying pan into the fire is a high risk proposition, especially for someone in a fragile state of mind that is almost certainly clouding their judgment. I'm not saying, as many would, that there is is an absolute here, but that if there are valid exceptions, they are rare and extreme.


If it's all you ever known (violent husband), you assume that's the norm. You are looking at it from a 'normal person's perspective'. A new relationship may be a new life line. I think a woman is more likely to save herself that way than through church or battering shelter...And I wouldn't be quick to judge her for it. Life's complicated. Here, it is black and white.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As to the second scenario, which is far less extreme, at least in the sense of urgency required merely for survival, a similar logic applies, with even clearer relevance. If you "don't have the guts" to end a dying relationship, you surely don't have the foundation to start a new relationship. If you can't be straight with your current partner, there's nothing to indicate you can be straight with a new partner.


It's not about being straight or bent, it's more about not realising that the relationship is dead until you meet someone new. Without him/her, the slow death will just continue and both partner may not break up for many reasons: they may not want to hurt each other, the may be lazy/used to each other, they may not even realise the relationship is dead.

I agree, it's always better to be upfront in an ideal world. But calling all cheaters 'bad people' seems a little b&w. As soon as you get that label here, that's it.
Anyway, apologies for quick T/J though it's still about empathy (kind of).


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> If it's all you ever known (violent husband), you assume that's the norm. You are looking at it from a 'normal person's perspective'. A new relationship may be a new life line. I think a woman is more likely to save herself that way than through church or battering shelter...And I wouldn't be quick to judge her for it. Life's complicated. Here, it is black and white.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about being straight or bent, it's more about not realising that the relationship is dead until you meet someone new. Without him/her, the slow death will just continue and both partner may not break up for many reasons: they may not want to hurt each other, the may be lazy/used to each other, they may not even realise the relationship is dead.
> 
> I agree, it's always better to be upfront in an ideal world. But calling all cheaters 'bad people' seems a little b&w. As soon as you get that label here, that's it.
> Anyway, apologies for quick T/J though it's still about empathy (kind of).


Life is complicated, but we often make the solutions much more complicated than they need to be. We have the ability to simplify. We are human beings, not animals trapped by blind instinct. 

I don't think I would ever fault a woman for anything she did as the result of spousal abuse, from walking out to cheating to returning the violence even more forcefully, so I do see your point here. 

I also don't see the crowd here as being as b&w as you perceive. Just recall the recent thread about looking elsewhere when a spouse has advanced Alzheimers. Yes, there were the hardliners that condemned any form of cheating whatsoever, this included, but they seemed to be in the minority. Much empathy was expressed there, including by women.

With regard to the latter, if the relationship is indeed dead, it should be known. If it isn't known, then it isn't truly dead. If a third party intercedes, he may have pushed something close over the edge, but it wasn't there yet. And even when it takes the meeting of a third party to realized the existing relationship was that close to dead, (or even already completely dead if you believe that is possible), that still allows for the ending of the existing relationship between the period of discovery and the period of establishing an actual new relationship.


----------



## wild jade

Faithful Wife said:


> On the bolded....me too, however since I would never go on a second date with such a guy, there wouldn't even be the chance for va-clang to happen because va-ching wouldn't ever even get started. So it is a moot point. For me, the only relevance is within a relationship where attraction has already been established, else there'd be no relationship. Not really much point talking about who we would *not* be attracted to if that person will never, ever even get near you. Which is why I'm so confused about the big whiny crying baby man everyone is so quick to point out. :scratchhead:
> 
> (I know you get what I'm saying though, Jade, and thanks)


Va-ching. I love it! A much better way of saying what I was trying to say.

I can see a guy I don't know and be drawn to him. But sometimes when he opens his mouth, the draw completely vanishes.


----------



## 269370

wild jade said:


> Va-ching. I love it! A much better way of saying what I was trying to say.
> 
> I can see a guy I don't know and be drawn to him. But sometimes when he opens his mouth, the draw completely vanishes.



And I thought that only happened to guys with pretty girls...And why all the bars and date restaurants have such loud music (so you don’t hear her voice too much and can focus on what really matters: her pretty cleavage...I mean face.) 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Its best not to show emotions around women. Its like blood in the water infested by sharks. In situations like these, its best to default to WWABD (What would Al Bundy do?).


----------



## Faithful Wife

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Its best not to show emotions around women. Its like blood in the water infested by sharks. In situations like these, its best to default to WWABD (What would Al Bundy do?).


Upside, would you care to give examples? Not a trick question, I just am asking for examples from guys. I mean like a specific time or times a woman has shut down on you because you showed emotion, or even as you said in your post, please share an example of how it seems like blood in the water with sharks.


----------



## ConanHub

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Its best not to show emotions around women. Its like blood in the water infested by sharks. In situations like these, its best to default to WWABD (What would Al Bundy do?).


Where are you getting this **** 💩? This is probably a TJ but I have never had a problem getting female attention up to and including sex.

I usually have the problem of trying to avoid sex and I am pretty easy with my emotions being shown.

Women have almost ripped my clothes off after showing emotions in their presence.

I think there must be other factors at play, yes there are whiny men, that you are talking about.

Whiny is always unattractive. Real people with a solid grasp of their emotions and the confidence to express them are extremely attractive.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> Where are you getting this **** 💩? This is probably a TJ but I have never had a problem getting female attention up to and including sex.
> 
> I usually have the problem of trying to avoid sex and I am pretty easy with my emotions being shown.
> 
> Women have almost ripped my clothes off after showing emotions in their presence.
> 
> I think there must be other factors at play, yes there are whiny men, that you are talking about.
> 
> Whiny is always unattractive. Real people with a solid grasp of their emotions and the confidence to express them are extremely attractive.


But Conan....I don’t think that’s what he’s saying. 

I understand that you are saying that you have shown emotions and this has not prevented women from wanting you. But many of these guys have had the experience of not being “allowed” to show emotion, or else pay a serious price in a particular woman’s attraction to him.


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> Whiny is always unattractive. Real people with a solid grasp of their emotions and the confidence to express them are extremely attractive.



OR......(drum roll)......maybe when you are unattractive, then you are being perceived as whiny? 

Bottom line (if you are into bottoms that is): if you have a person/partner you feel you can trust, you can also show emotion and not worry it will be thrown back into your face. 

There are people I wouldn’t trust with my shopping list, not to mention any kind of emotion. They will abuse your trust and make you wear it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> But Conan....I don’t think that’s what he’s saying.
> 
> I understand that you are saying that you have shown emotions and this has not prevented women from wanting you. But many of these guys have had the experience of not being “allowed” to show emotion, or else pay a serious price in a particular woman’s attraction to him.


I hope he does share something relevant about it.

I'll try and shut it and read to hopefully gain understanding but I mostly feel like I'm living in a Twilight universe next to what is being expressed.

I've simply experienced a radically different life than anything being expressed in this, or similar, threads and I just can't relate.

Your inquiries have revealed a little blind spot or two that I have but nothing world shaking.

Are there maybe people that this lack of empathy just doesn't happen to?

If so, can something be learned or taken from the folks that don't suffer lack of empathy and applied to heal the folks who have?

My human experience is so radically different from what I have read that it seems like a bodice ripping fantasy comparatively.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> I hope he does share something relevant about it.
> 
> I'll try and shut it and read to hopefully gain understanding but I mostly feel like I'm living in a Twilight universe next to what is being expressed.
> 
> I've simply experienced a radically different life than anything being expressed in this, or similar, threads and I just can't relate.
> 
> Your inquiries have revealed a little blind spot or two that I have but nothing world shaking.
> 
> Are there maybe people that this lack of empathy just doesn't happen to?
> 
> If so, can something be learned or taken from the folks that don't suffer lack of empathy and applied to heal the folks who have?
> 
> My human experience is so radically different from what I have read that it seems like a bodice ripping fantasy comparatively.


Yes, my entire experience has been different also. People in my life have always shown emotions and empathy in normal levels. My male partners have been both strong and emotional. 

But at TAM (and elsewhere on the net at least), we hear of so many stories of women shutting down to men if they have weakness of any kind. And the stories of just a general lack of empathy for men in society.

Conan, these guys aren’t saying “oh poor me, no one will protect me”. Nor are they saying they even want accolades.

What they are saying is that it happens. They know it from experience. And I’m just trying to listen to those experiences.

They aren’t asking me to pity them, or even to do anything about it. They aren’t even asking me to listen, I am asking them to share.

If people make shaming type posts to them for even sharing, see how that just works against the effort? But also, it kind of illustrates the point. Even the mention of the topic that women sometimes lack empathy for men causes other men to start talking about whiners. 

They aren’t whining.

At least not the people I am asking to share with me are not, they are simply sharing their experiences at my request.


----------



## Tiggy!

ConanHub said:


> My human experience is so radically different from what I have read that it seems like a bodice ripping fantasy comparatively.


I think just the nature of this forum you'll have a higher percentage of men having experienced this than in everyday life.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Tiggy! said:


> I think just the nature of this forum you'll have a higher percentage of men having experienced this than in everyday life.


I agree, but also several of the guys I really respect (even if opposed on some topics) are reporting the same things. Guys who I have a sense of their story and their personality from years of their posts, and don’t seem like whiners about anything. They have more than one story each usually, plus they are describing to me what the lack of empathy for men in society looks like.

Guys like Mem, Sam Yager, Rocky Mtn Yeti, Buddy400, Fozzy, and a few others. None of these stories were being told in order to seek empathy, they were just telling things like they have observed in their own lives.

Then GettingIt did chime in and describe va-clang. Then someone else mentioned the research lady (forgot her name) who found a similar thing, by seeing that attraction disappeared for men if they showed any vulnerability. 

I don’t think these guys are all just married to *******s. And I don’t think they are begging for our sympathy or empathy. But the fact that this occurs in enough cases for so many of them to report the same things seems to show that it is certainly not uncommon.

This may be a factor of just overall lack of empathetic abilities in individuals, both men and women, and it is just so prevalent that it of course turns up in relationships. I said on the other thread and will repeat here that obviously many men also lack empathy for women. Maybe a solid 50% of us lack normal empathy, or have a disorder on the spectrum, or have predjudices which don’t allow us to have empathy for certain groups. 

It’s just that I was already completely empathetic to women and how they are sometimes treated, the things we see in patterns. The things we know are happening because we experience them. 

I was not aware before of the things these guys were telling me, and at first I didn’t really believe it was “a thing”. But after all of these guys who I have grown to respect and trust have explained it to me....I’m realizing that I definitely disregarded anything I considered men’s issues before, and the empathy issue was one of them.


----------



## ConanHub

FW, I think you have stumbled across a communication gap and I get what you are saying.

To be clear, I am not meaning to demean or shame anyone about this topic.

I respect several posters like faresidejunky and I know they are on the opposite end of the spectrum from whiners.

Count me gobsmacked as well!

It does seem that many otherwise good women are having this reaction to vulnerability in their men.

It is probably mostly hidden IRL as the closest actions I can personally recall are when women are abusive. I am aware of massive amounts of abuse happening to husbands from wives and maybe this topic ties into that one a little as it seems men are as ashamed as women who receive abuse but maybe have less empathy or outlets for what is happening to them.

I am certainly sad that this is happening and hope some can achieve a win over it.


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> FW, I think you have stumbled across a communication gap and I get what you are saying.
> 
> 
> 
> To be clear, I am not meaning to demean or shame anyone about this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> I respect several posters like faresidejunky and I know they are on the opposite end of the spectrum from whiners.
> 
> 
> 
> Count me gobsmacked as well!
> 
> 
> 
> It does seem that many otherwise good women are having this reaction to vulnerability in their men.
> 
> 
> 
> It is probably mostly hidden IRL as the closest actions I can personally recall are when women are abusive. I am aware of massive amounts of abuse happening to husbands from wives and maybe this topic ties into that one a little as it seems men are as ashamed as women who receive abuse but maybe have less empathy or outlets for what is happening to them.
> 
> 
> 
> I am certainly sad that this is happening and hope some can achieve a win over it.



Typically, the abuse men receive (from what I gather) is more emotional (there was no other recourse in the past). Women (historically) were more subject to physical abuse.

It’s not that men don’t receive physical abuse too but if you are stronger then obviously physical abuse is easy/easier to counteract.

Emotional abuse is tricky but at least it doesn’t land you in ER or worse (not immediately anyway. Though we do get to live less, on average).




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

ConanHub said:


> Women have almost ripped my clothes off after showing emotions in their presence.



Which of the two male emotions did you show? Hungry or horny? (Joking)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uhtred

Domestic violence against men is a lot more common than many people think:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men

It is sometimes harder to identify because men are even less likely to come forward, and sometimes its perceived as "funny". 


I had a female friend A who worked with female victims of domestic violence. One day we were talking about a mutual friend W and her husband H. W was a small woman, H a big German guy. A recounted a story where they were all meeting at a dance club. H and A showed up a little early, and H was dancing with other women. When W showed up she hit H. Hard, not a slap, but a hard punch to the nose that left him bleeding. Turns out she hit him a lot - sometimes with objects. 

A, despite here domestic violence experience didn't recognize this as violence because H was so much larger. When I pointed out to her, she thought and the was horrified that she had missed it. 


Think of all the "funny" images of wives hitting their husbands with rolling pins (eg clubs). I'm not claiming its as large a problem as male -on-female violence but while statistics are fuzzy, it doesn't look to be much smaller. 

Just as women often don't leave abusive situations even though they could, men often don't fight back when attacked by spouses - probably for many similar psychological reasons. 





inmyprime said:


> Typically, the abuse men receive (from what I gather) is more emotional (there was no other recourse in the past). Women (historically) were more subject to physical abuse.
> 
> It’s not that men don’t receive physical abuse too but if you are stronger then obviously physical abuse is easy/easier to counteract.
> 
> Emotional abuse is tricky but at least it doesn’t land you in ER or worse (not immediately anyway. Though we do get to live less, on average).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Wow, this thread has taken off!

😉 I'm going to read a bit. 

Way to go FW!!


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

minimalME said:


> A power thing - agreed.
> 
> It's interesting that some men worry that once they marry, there'll be no variety, because sooo many relationship articles and books talk about how we (women) don't have a magical *****, and that a vagina is a vagina.


It's amazing how so many "current" articles and books say that.

Because my grandfather told us boys that, when each of us grandsons were complaining to him wallowing over "girl troubles" as we were sitting out under the old oak trees at his farm, or working with him. He was married for 60yrs before he passed.

To a loving and great wife. He was always kind, considerate and appreciative to our grandmother. A good example. But not "whipped" if I can use that term softly and generically.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this. This has been passed down by many, since time began.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

minimalME said:


> A power thing - agreed.
> 
> It's interesting that some men worry that once they marry, there'll be no variety, because sooo many relationship articles and books talk about how we (women) don't have a magical *****, and that a vagina is a vagina.


Interesting indeed.

First of all, if you've got a good one, why would you want others, especially knowing that tapping into others destroys the relationship with the good one you've got?

And as for variety, a man needs multiple vaginas for variety? For anyone willing to be playful and creative, the world of sex offers a fantastic variety of options all within the bounds of a two-person couple construct. Vaginal, oral, manual, toys, games, locations, dress, positions, etc (and many more more exotic options as well). There's a lot to work with there for those who want to mix it up.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Re the emotions shown by a man being unattractive to the opposite sex...

That comment with a broad stroke mostly isn't the case, from my own and close friends experiences but, that said,

too many emotions shown every second, yes.

And specific emotions, yes, the whiny gene, as in "life isn't fair" woe is me, emotions that constantly cripple action, yes, at least.

I'm emotional, but not demonstrative of all emotions to all people. Wife the most, but don't whine or complain. Although I I do sometimes complain while fixing something 😊.

When single quite a few "encounters" started unexpectedly when I was drinking alone and the girl says hey, you haven't talked to me at all, some woman must have hurt you. 

And whether or not that was the immediate truth, I'd say why yes, and she would try and "fix" me. I would share a bit but not dwell, and off we'd go. But I was young and opportunistic then.


----------



## Marduk

I can only speak from my experiences with women. 

I have never felt empathy from any woman ever, except my mom and occasionally an aunt or two. 

But in relationships, every single woman I’ve been emotionally vulnerable and needed support with, including two wives and many girlfriends...

Every single one has gone badly. It has contributed to the end of relationships, and even when I had a little crying breakdown a few months after my mom died, my wife didn’t know what to do. She just kind of sat there watching me, and then was distant for a few days. 

I don’t blame her; she was going through **** of her own. But any kind of empathy or support from her or any woman would seem foreign to me now, and I wouldn’t seek it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> I can only speak from my experiences with women.
> 
> I have never felt empathy from any woman ever, except my mom and occasionally an aunt or two.
> 
> But in relationships, every single woman I’ve been emotionally vulnerable and needed support with, including two wives and many girlfriends...
> 
> Every single one has gone badly. It has contributed to the end of relationships, and even when I had a little crying breakdown a few months after my mom died, my wife didn’t know what to do. She just kind of sat there watching me, and then was distant for a few days.
> 
> I don’t blame her; she was going through **** of her own. But any kind of empathy or support from her or any woman would seem foreign to me now, and I wouldn’t seek it.


This still makes me incredibly sad when I read it. And I still do not understand the thinking of women. And I am still shocked it is so prevalent. And....just....


----------



## hptessla

InMyPrime said:


> Typically, the abuse men receive (from what I gather) is more emotional (there was no other recourse in the past). Women (historically) were more subject to physical abuse.
> 
> It’s not that men don’t receive physical abuse too but if you are stronger then obviously physical abuse is easy/easier to counteract.
> 
> Emotional abuse is tricky but at least it doesn’t land you in ER or worse (not immediately anyway. Though we do get to live less, on average).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I'm not sure it's that men were or are subject to less physical abuse. Sometimes when "Cops" used to pop up flipping channels I would watch a few minutes of it. Inevitably there would be a domestic violence call (poor cops, having to wade into all the 'he said/she said' of that). Often times after being accused by the female partner of physical abuse (which usually WAS a fact) the cops might ask or the male declare something like "well, she pushed me first" and the conversation following that would generally lead to no one wanting to press any charges because both parties had indeed contributed their own violence.

In looking at my own dating and just interactions with female friends there are many times where one of them has pushed me (kind of like Elaine would do on Seinfeld), poke me or once in a while slap me. If I did any of those things it would be taken as physical violence...really only because my ability to do harm is greater. However, in reality the violence and intent would be no different from a woman doing this to me. Women understand that they can push, shove, hit a man and not do much damage but the emotion behind it is pretty much the same.
So does it differ? On the "Cops" show the police took both instances as assault if either party desired to press charges. However, most men will not claim assault mainly because it didn't hurt, regardless of intent or desire behind the action.

As far as women lacking empathy or not...I think people are individuals. I also think that the current atmosphere and 'style'(??) seems to encourage women to think that men are generally less than good or well intentioned and therefore empathy is not required. What is required is whatever you feel you deserve, and this is not a mindset that lends itself to empathy in either gender unfortunately.


----------



## minimalME

What would be acceptable empathy from a woman? In the situation with your wife about your mom, what would've made you feel understood/heard/loved?




Marduk said:


> I have never felt empathy from any woman ever, except my mom and occasionally an aunt or two.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> This still makes me incredibly sad when I read it. And I still do not understand the thinking of women. And I am still shocked it is so prevalent. And....just....




I have never heard it be different from anyone else.


----------



## Marduk

minimalME said:


> What would be acceptable empathy from a woman? In the situation with your wife about your mom, what would've made you feel understood/heard/loved?




I dunno. A hug? Maybe being told it will be ok?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> I dunno. A hug? Maybe being told it will be ok?


I don’t understand this. I don’t know if I will ever be able to understand it.

I also don’t mean to speak poorly of your wife, so I hope you understand me on that point.

I have no intention of making anyone “wrong”. I just wish I could understand how some women can be this way. And apparently so many women that it is a common experience for men.


----------



## MaiChi

This is an area where I feel i am not equal to my husband. I like to lean on him more than he leans on me. I expect him to be more decisive, more logical, and more proactive than I am in most things. i have trained myself to look at him as the head of my nuclear family. As such he needs to show leadership qualities in most areas. When he does not I tell him off, be it in a gentle and loving way. 

If it were that he starts winging about mundane issues, I certainly would not going to supply any empathy against that. If it is illness or something that cannot be helped, then fair enough. The man of the house must show strength of character and forward thinking and lead his family into the unknown future with a general plan that I buy into and we work the details of it together. If he has no opinions on anything, he is an unfit person to be a man of the house. This may not be the thinking of feminists but that is how I see my man and his role in this family. I agree with feminists on a very narrow band of contexts namely to do with employment and equal pay for equal work. In the home roles must be clearly defined so we have a logistic plan. This includes all areas of domestic functions such as 
Cooking, balanced diets, cleaning, gardening, chopping fire wood, maintaining the lawn, trimming the trees, car washing repairs, decorating, Installing new kitchens, helping kids with homework, having sex, managing contraception, eating out, buying clothes for the children, budgeting, etc.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t understand this. I don’t know if I will ever be able to understand it.
> 
> 
> 
> I also don’t mean to speak poorly of your wife, so I hope you understand me on that point.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no intention of making anyone “wrong”. I just wish I could understand how some women can be this way. And apparently so many women that it is a common experience for men.


It had only been a few months after her assault when that happened, so I don’t blame her at all. She had no empathy to give even if she wanted to. She was just keeping her **** together at the time, and was leaning on me heavily. I had a break down thinking about my mother and everything just hit me at once. It only lasted 5 minutes or so, and passed quickly. 

It could be the women I choose. It could be that I don’t get very emotional very often. 

But I don’t think it’s an uncommon experience either. Every woman I’ve ever dated said they wanted a vulnerable, emotionally open man. And yet every one recoiled at the actual experience, at least with me. 

Maybe I get too emotional? I don’t think so, I’ve cried maybe once or twice in the past couple of decades. Three or four times max if I’m forgetting something. 

But maybe it’s me or something I do. Doesn’t matter. I will not be trying that again if I can help it.


----------



## VibrantWings

Marduk said:


> It could be the women I choose. It could be that I don’t get very emotional very often.
> 
> But I don’t think it’s an uncommon experience either. Every woman I’ve ever dated said they wanted a vulnerable, emotionally open man. And yet every one recoiled at the actual experience, at least with me.
> 
> Maybe I get too emotional? I don’t think so, I’ve cried maybe once or twice in the past couple of decades. Three or four times max if I’m forgetting something.
> 
> But maybe it’s me or something I do. Doesn’t matter. I will not be trying that again if I can help it.


This would be a very interesting, and perhaps enlightening, conversation I would be interested in having with any new man I took up with. Perhaps it's a topic you should broach early enough on with someone new. 
People in my reality often perceive me as tougher than I am. It's a self defense system i adapted...means i'm not such an easy mark. However, I will admit I've cried helluva lot more than you over the decades.
I AM tough but the vulnerability can be surprising when I let my guard down occasionally. I'm a woman....I'm imagining the perceptions are probably even more limited for you, as a male. 

When some women say they want "sensitive" I feel myself throw up a little. They need to clarify their perceptions of sensitive to me, as well. I think some people in general talk out of the side of their mouths...quoting some canned BS they read somewhere. Maybe *I* am being insensitive myself *shrugs*

I just had some e-empathy for you, FWIW.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> It had only been a few months after her assault when that happened, so I don’t blame her at all. She had no empathy to give even if she wanted to. She was just keeping her **** together at the time, and was leaning on me heavily. I had a break down thinking about my mother and everything just hit me at once. It only lasted 5 minutes or so, and passed quickly.
> 
> It could be the women I choose. It could be that I don’t get very emotional very often.
> 
> But I don’t think it’s an uncommon experience either. Every woman I’ve ever dated said they wanted a vulnerable, emotionally open man. And yet every one recoiled at the actual experience, at least with me.
> 
> Maybe I get too emotional? I don’t think so, I’ve cried maybe once or twice in the past couple of decades. Three or four times max if I’m forgetting something.
> 
> But maybe it’s me or something I do. Doesn’t matter. I will not be trying that again if I can help it.


I wouldn’t either if I were you. 

It is especially touching that you could still continue to have empathy for her in the other issue during this whole thing. 

I can see this is how and why men know they are and must be the stronger sex, and that they still don’t even get the credit for it.


----------



## VibrantWings

@Faithful Wife- until they give birth a couple of times, breast feed, work full time, attend night school while single parenting....I can't really perceive men as the "stronger" sex. I realize they are EXPECTED to be...but it just ain't so for some of the men I have met in my lifetime. 
Women can be strong survivors themselves...without help from a S.O. to "protect" them.


----------



## personofinterest

Faithful Wife said:


> Marduk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can only speak from my experiences with women.
> 
> I have never felt empathy from any woman ever, except my mom and occasionally an aunt or two.
> 
> But in relationships, every single woman I’ve been emotionally vulnerable and needed support with, including two wives and many girlfriends...
> 
> Every single one has gone badly. It has contributed to the end of relationships, and even when I had a little crying breakdown a few months after my mom died, my wife didn’t know what to do. She just kind of sat there watching me, and then was distant for a few days.
> 
> I don’t blame her; she was going through **** of her own. But any kind of empathy or support from her or any woman would seem foreign to me now, and I wouldn’t seek it.
> 
> 
> 
> This still makes me incredibly sad when I read it. And I still do not understand the thinking of women. And I am still shocked it is so prevalent. And....just....<a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/frown.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Frown" ></a>
Click to expand...

Me too. Hubby has cried a few times since we married, and my response is to just hold him and feel love. I never think of him as weak or less of a man. The opposite, in fact.

Now if he cried every day about everything, that would get old. But I'd feel the same way about a woman who did that.

Men should not have to fear being vulnerable with the women who vowed to love them. 😞


----------



## personofinterest

VibrantWings said:


> @Faithful Wife- until they give birth a couple of times, breast feed, work full time, attend night school while single parenting....I can't really perceive men as the "stronger" sex. I realize they are EXPECTED to be...but it just ain't so for some of the men I have met in my lifetime.
> Women can be strong survivors themselves...without help from a S.O. to "protect" them.


Wow


----------



## Fozzy

Marduk said:


> But I don’t think it’s an uncommon experience either. Every woman I’ve ever dated said they wanted a vulnerable, emotionally open man. And yet every one recoiled at the actual experience, at least with me.


Theory: Perhaps (some of) these women had pre-defined expectations of what emotions and vulnerabilities would be shown, without realizing that emotions are messy and aren't always centered around them.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I wouldn’t either if I were you.
> 
> 
> 
> It is especially touching that you could still continue to have empathy for her in the other issue during this whole thing.
> 
> 
> 
> I can see this is how and why men know they are and must be the stronger sex, and that they still don’t even get the credit for it.



I am now very sure that it is not actually men that is the stronger sex.


----------



## Marduk

Fozzy said:


> Theory: Perhaps (some of) these women had pre-defined expectations of what emotions and vulnerabilities would be shown, without realizing that emotions are messy and aren't always centered around them.




Hey Foz, good to talk to you again. 

I think that’s part of it. I asked my wife about it a while ago. 

She said she didn’t know what to do and had never seen me that way before, so she didn’t do anything. I think it may have scared her a little.


----------



## personofinterest

Obviously this would not be an across-the-board thing, but I wonder if there is some sort of connection between the kind of father a woman had and her level of empathy for the other man in her life. My father was a man's man in the sense that he was athletic and strong and decisive and very typically male. But he was also very tender hearted and somewhat emotional. In fact, I remember him crying more often than my mother ever did when I was growing up. He was not afraid to express himself. I wonder if having a father who wasn't afraid to be vulnerable made it more normal to me so that I did not freak out and freeze up when other man in my life were vulnerable? Just throwing ideas out.


----------



## Marduk

personofinterest said:


> Obviously this would not be an across-the-board thing, but I wonder if there is some sort of connection between the kind of father a woman had and her level of empathy for the other man in her life. My father was a man's man in the sense that he was athletic and strong and decisive and very typically male. But he was also very tender hearted and somewhat emotional. In fact, I remember him crying more often than my mother ever did when I was growing up. He was not afraid to express himself. I wonder if having a father who wasn't afraid to be vulnerable made it more normal to me so that I did not freak out and freeze up when other man in my life were vulnerable? Just throwing ideas out.




My father in law is awful in all kinds of ways, but he loves his daughter and has cried in front of her. 

Hell, he’s cried in front of me.


----------



## personofinterest

It's interesting how… literal and by Neri some men can be. My father didn't have an impact on me because he cried. My father had an impact on me because he was a wonderful man and a wonderful father and wasn't afraid to cry. Had he been a terrible person who happened to cry, it probably would not have been the same.


----------



## personofinterest

Of course, I could have empathy for men because I am so wonderfully wonderful. However, I don't think you're going to find many people on this forum that agree with that assessment lol. Most of them think I'm a ***** lol


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn’t either if I were you.
> 
> 
> 
> It is especially touching that you could still continue to have empathy for her in the other issue during this whole thing.
> 
> 
> 
> I can see this is how and why men know they are and must be the stronger sex, and that they still don’t even get the credit for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am now very sure that it is not actually men that is the stronger sex.
Click to expand...

I think I know how you mean this, but it would be great if you could expand.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I think I know how you mean this, but it would be great if you could expand.


I’m generalizing of course. 

Women endure a tough childhood. You are often taught to dislike your own body. Mistrust your desires. 

You grow up in a world where any man can be a potential predator. You are leered at, your intimacies are bragged about as victories, you are shamed for your sexuality. You are wrong if you are the Madonna and you are wrong if you are the *****. 

Somehow you crawl through the muck in humanity, find the best in one of us, allow yourself to love even when we hurt you. 

You endure the pain of childbirth. Often, astoundingly, more than once. You raise our children, often alone. You are expected to be mother, nursemaid, wife, career woman. 

You hold your head high in a world that tolerates and often celebrates the idea that you are somehow lesser than, smaller, incapable, an object and not a person. Often surrounded by others of your gender that also judge you, tear you down, undermine you. 

Somehow you keep going. 

We think we are strong because we bear physical scars or burdens as protectors and providers. We shed the occasional tear and congratulate ourselves for being open. We lift weights and grow muscles as if that will give us strength. We think we have made this world, when in fact we were gifted it by you. 

We pretend to be strong. You actually are.


----------



## Marduk

Wow, that was dark.

I just mean that I really didn’t understand how hard it was for women in this world. I had an idea, but I understand more now. 

Brave creatures, you are. 

It Saturday night. Time for a whiskey!


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Hmmmm. 

The last couple days I've had routes in an area called university park. These are massively expensive homes. Its Saturday, so kids are out playing and all that. I'm watching these kids as I drive my route and I'm thinking "i wonder what it's like to grow up with the ol silver spoon?" 

But the thought never crossed my mind that they have it any easier. In certain ways, sure. But they have issues I probably wouldn't even know about having. Can't fathom them. 

Idk. Man, woman, rich, poor, black, white, I dont know that anyone has it any easier. Just different. Rich folks have higher suicide rates than poor folks by percentage. Can't be like living high on the hog for all of them right? Theres social pressures on both men and women that the other side doesn't face. Probably can't fathom those issues because it's just so foriegn. Inconceivable. I dont know how anyone can then make a claim that one gender is stronger, or one group has it easier. Seems like a very ignorant thing to say.


----------



## Faithful Wife

@VibrantWings and @Marduk

I understand what you both are saying and I agree women are bad ass to the extreme.

But...I also love, admire and appreciate the ways men love us, protect us, and help us. And I do feel they many times receive no empathy either.

I guess I just want both to receive from and give empathy to each other, y’all. Like, men and women are both bad ass warriors and riding in on white horses and being goddesses who gift the world with light.

I don’t see one or the other as having a heavier burden. Instead, we are uniquely gifted with the ability to lighten the other’s burden. Starting with empathy.

I know there are men who lack empathy and women who lack empathy. I wish I understood why, but finding some way to change this even if just slightly seems more important than understanding.


----------



## uhtred

This thread is so long, I may have posted this already, but think of the movie Titanic - but reverse the genders. Have the guy on the platform of chairs that the woman built, watching here slowly drown. Don't think it would sell well as a romantic film. 

I think that social expectations for men and women are very different. 

Men can show sadness - but only in certain ways. Its OK to cry if your beloved dog died, or your are burying your wife. But it has to be manly crying - A single tear running down your cheek. Its not OK to be a sobbing wreck. 

I'm not saying that is how things should be, but it is how I think they are.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> I know there are men who lack empathy and women who lack empathy.* I wish I understood why,*% but finding some way to change this even if just slightly seems more important than understanding.


They are damaged. FOO issues mostly. Outside of some sort of mental issue, its pretty much FOO issues or some other trauma they experienced that made them this way. 

One of the annoying things I see on this site frequently is "people never change" 

I think it's more like "people can change, you're just not the one who's going to trigger their desire to change" 

You can't fix them all, but you've helped me change FW. I've been really working hard on letting go of my anger. Or at least, channeling it towards myself where it should be rather than lashing out at others. I'm trying anyway...


----------



## personofinterest

"One of the annoying things I see on this site frequently is "people never change" 

I think it's more like "people can change, you're just not the one who's going to trigger their desire to change" "

Very good stuff.

Almost as annoying to me is: If you do X bad thing, it means you were bad all along.


----------



## Girl_power

I am just going to jump in and say I notice that I don’t have empathy for men. And in fact I often have a negative view of men. I know in my head it’s wrong but my personal life experiences brought me to this. But yes, my opinions on men started to form from my dad, then boys in school, violence On women I watched on tv, news, and seen as a nurse, and volunteering in women’s shelters (there are no men’s shelters).


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> They are damaged. FOO issues mostly. Outside of some sort of mental issue, its pretty much FOO issues or some other trauma they experienced that made them this way.
> 
> One of the annoying things I see on this site frequently is "people never change"
> 
> I think it's more like "people can change, you're just not the one who's going to trigger their desire to change"
> 
> You can't fix them all, but you've helped me change FW. I've been really working hard on letting go of my anger. Or at least, channeling it towards myself where it should be rather than lashing out at others. I'm trying anyway...


Awwwwww Dooooooood.....I’m trying, too. :x. 

It’s worth trying for.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Girl_power said:


> I am just going to jump in and say I notice that I don’t have empathy for men. And in fact I often have a negative view of men. I know in my head it’s wrong but my personal life experiences brought me to this. But yes, my opinions on men started to form from my dad, then boys in school, violence On women I watched on tv, news, and seen as a nurse, and volunteering in women’s shelters (there are no men’s shelters).


It’s understandable to me when you say it like this from your own experience. It sounds like you have not been supported by or shown empathy from men in your life, and that you have seen crimes against women by men up close and personal. 



I think I have an idea of the devastation that can occur from violence, but I have not experienced it myself or been close to it in any way. Also I have seen men in my family and romantic life be mostly wonderful towards women. Not perfect people by any stretch but definitely not unempathetic or violent. I wish you had been able to have a better view of men, as I do believe the majority are good. But I also do not discount what you have seen or experienced and like I said, when you say it like you did I can understand why you feel the way you do.


----------



## Deejo

Speaking from my own experience, I don't think I'm prepared to say that women don't have empathy for men. It feels more like empathy is, or can be a trip-wire for a potential series of other emotions or concerns. I actually really appreciate that several women on the thread have acknowledged as much.

This is one of the lessons, I'd wager most men learn through osmosis ... meaning it happens to them and they eventually make the connection via experience ... or they keep paying the price and wondering why, when they believe they are only doing what most messages say they should be doing; being expressive and vulnerable. I think part of the issue is that 'expressive, and vulnerable' has a context. It's just not always clear what the context is supposed to be.

I'm a big feeler. I'm very, very, empathetic. For the record, my 13 year old daughter is a virtual carbon copy of me, emotionally speaking. I worry for her. We talk a lot, about not putting the feelings of others, above love and respect of oneself. 

My health isn't great. Never has been. I've done a lot to try and compensate for that. It's why I am always very, very, careful when my spouse asks, "How are you feeling?" Because I know damn well, she wants to hear, "You know what, babe? I feel friggin' great!"
So if I instead tell her that I'm having difficulty moving air, anticipate that I need to go on a steroid and an antibiotic to address the issue, and lament the fact that I never just feel 'good'?

Yeah ... she really, really doesn't want to hear that ... despite the fact it is the truth.

And I'm not complaining. I recognize it for what it is. By griping about the state of my health undermines the entire stability of the life we have built. I realize that sounds hyperbolic. But ... it makes her anxious and thus tends to distance herself from the subject ... me.

I used to be utterly oblivious to this. I'm going back almost 30 years. If someone asked me a question ... I answered them. Certainly don't want to make it sound like I lie about how I'm feeling, what's troubling me, or what my concerns, worries, and anxieties are.

I'm just aware of how those matters can impact the dynamic. To the point that I used them while dating to create emotional distance if I wanted to move the relationship in one direction or the other. It was like pre-breakup talks. And they worked ... every time.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Girl_power said:


> I am just going to jump in and say I notice that I don’t have empathy for men. And in fact I often have a negative view of men. I know in my head it’s wrong but my personal life experiences brought me to this. But yes, my opinions on men started to form from my dad, then boys in school, violence On women I watched on tv, news, and seen as a nurse, and volunteering in women’s shelters (there are no men’s shelters).


There are men's shelters. 

You know, I used to have a problem with the term "toxic masculinity" because I felt like I was being attacked for simply being a man. When you dig into things like the fact there's very few men's shelters, and then look at suicide rates, I think the lack of empathy for men comes mostly from other men. Sure there's some women who have no empathy for men, but I actually see this coming more from other men. 

I think the same can be said for women. Correct me if this is wrong (I'm not a woman obviously) Girls are extremely cruel towards one another. The stuff women do to each other is just heartbreaking and shows a complete lack of empathy towards one another. 

Now given that I am a man, and have only my own life's experiences to go by, I can defend men in general pretty easily. Comes naturally. Women, having only their own life's experiences defend women in general very easily. You can't confuse this for empathy however. Its a little closer to projecting but even that isn't quite the right word. I don't know if there is a word for it. Not quite empathy, not quite projecting. Its somewhere in the middle of those two. 

The only thing that I can offer is I believe it will ultimately be women who Will make men have empathy for other men. It will only be men who will make women have empathy for other women. We desperately need one another.


----------



## Marduk

Deejo said:


> Speaking from my own experience, I don't think I'm prepared to say that women don't have empathy for men. It feels more like empathy is, or can be a trip-wire for a potential series of other emotions or concerns. I actually really appreciate that several women on the thread have acknowledged as much.
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of the lessons, I'd wager most men learn through osmosis ... meaning it happens to them and they eventually make the connection via experience ... or they keep paying the price and wondering why, when they believe they are only doing what most messages say they should be doing; being expressive and vulnerable. I think part of the issue is that 'expressive, and vulnerable' has a context. It's just not always clear what the context is supposed to be.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a big feeler. I'm very, very, empathetic. For the record, my 13 year old daughter is a virtual carbon copy of me, emotionally speaking. I worry for her. We talk a lot, about not putting the feelings of others, above love and respect of oneself.
> 
> 
> 
> My health isn't great. Never has been. I've done a lot to try and compensate for that. It's why I am always very, very, careful when my spouse asks, "How are you feeling?" Because I know damn well, she wants to hear, "You know what, babe? I feel friggin' great!"
> 
> So if I instead tell her that I'm having difficulty moving air, anticipate that I need to go on a steroid and an antibiotic to address the issue, and lament the fact that I never just feel 'good'?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah ... she really, really doesn't want to hear that ... despite the fact it is the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm not complaining. I recognize it for what it is. By griping about the state of my health undermines the entire stability of the life we have built. I realize that sounds hyperbolic. But ... it makes her anxious and thus tends to distance herself from the subject ... me.
> 
> 
> 
> I used to be utterly oblivious to this. I'm going back almost 30 years. If someone asked me a question ... I answered them. Certainly don't want to make it sound like I lie about how I'm feeling, what's troubling me, or what my concerns, worries, and anxieties are.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just aware of how those matters can impact the dynamic. To the point that I used them while dating to create emotional distance if I wanted to move the relationship in one direction or the other. It was like pre-breakup talks. And they worked ... every time.




I missed your wisdom, man.


----------



## Lila

I'll add my 2 cents. My empathy is gender neutral and conditional (with a few exceptions: disabled people, children, and animals). When I am emotionally running high and my tank is full of love, I can be unconditionally empathetic towards most. When my tank is running on empty, I am very selective when and to whom I dole empathy. It's usually people who I feel at the time "deserve" it based on where I am at emotionally. I do this with women and I do this with men.


----------



## ConanHub

WOW! @Deejo

Respect.


----------



## personofinterest

Lila said:


> I'll add my 2 cents. My empathy is gender neutral and conditional (with a few exceptions: disabled people, children, and animals). When I am emotionally running high and my tank is full of love, I can be unconditionally empathetic towards most. When my tank is running on empty, I am very selective when and to whom I dole empathy. It's usually people who I feel at the time "deserve" it based on where I am at emotionally. I do this with women and I do this with men.


Me too.


----------



## SunCMars

THRD was that rock.

A funny rock it was.

He needed to remain hard, yet bounce back and up when slammed down hard.

He did not whimper, he did feel depressed a tad when no compassion was shown.
Those times he did complain he got 'that' shoulda, woulda, coulda lecture.

Stop being a whiner!!

Since he was of Martial roots, he was thought to need no empathy.

There were many times he was called a stubborn man, a rock head, sometimes a potato, as one feeling nothing.

He easily got emotional from little things, from sad scenes in a movie to a sad story just heard. Tears formed in his eyes.
Ah, stop it, what is wrong with you!

He was a man full of love, empathy, compassion and humor. None of which was appropriate or appreciated.

So he did his best to remain mute, remain smiling. The smiling part was easy, keeping quiet, not so much.

Or, so it seems....



KB-


----------



## tech-novelist

Girl_power said:


> I am just going to jump in and say I notice that I don’t have empathy for men. And in fact I often have a negative view of men. I know in my head it’s wrong but my personal life experiences brought me to this. But yes, my opinions on men started to form from my dad, then boys in school, violence On women I watched on tv, news, and seen as a nurse, and volunteering in women’s shelters (there are no men’s shelters).


What do you think is the reason that there are no men's shelters?


----------



## 269370

tech-novelist said:


> What do you think is the reason that there are no men's shelters?



Who are the men supposed to be sheltered from?
There’s always TAM for heart aches...(and mutual humiliation...)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Girl_power

TheDudeLebowski said:


> There are men's shelters.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, I used to have a problem with the term "toxic masculinity" because I felt like I was being attacked for simply being a man. When you dig into things like the fact there's very few men's shelters, and then look at suicide rates, I think the lack of empathy for men comes mostly from other men. Sure there's some women who have no empathy for men, but I actually see this coming more from other men.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the same can be said for women. Correct me if this is wrong (I'm not a woman obviously) Girls are extremely cruel towards one another. The stuff women do to each other is just heartbreaking and shows a complete lack of empathy towards one another.
> 
> 
> 
> Now given that I am a man, and have only my own life's experiences to go by, I can defend men in general pretty easily. Comes naturally. Women, having only their own life's experiences defend women in general very easily. You can't confuse this for empathy however. Its a little closer to projecting but even that isn't quite the right word. I don't know if there is a word for it. Not quite empathy, not quite projecting. Its somewhere in the middle of those two.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing that I can offer is I believe it will ultimately be women who Will make men have empathy for other men. It will only be men who will make women have empathy for other women. We desperately need one another.




I agree that women are mean to each other. I am 100% not like that. I am a girls girl. I usually agree with women and side with them. However I have no problem telling any gender when they do something wrong. 

I haven’t heard much about toxic masculinity. When I hear it, I think of men not being able to cry or show their emotions and causing them to be emotionally unavailable and not vulnerable. I’m not sure if that’s right or not.


----------



## Girl_power

tech-novelist said:


> What do you think is the reason that there are no men's shelters?




Because biologically speaking men are or can be a threat to women (physically), and women generally are a threat to men physically.


----------



## tech-novelist

Girl_power said:


> Because biologically speaking men are or can be a threat to women (physically), and women generally are a threat to men physically.


More men than women are victims of domestic violence: CDC Study: More Men than Women Victims of Partner Abuse » SAVE: Stop Abusive and Violent Environments

So maybe that's not the reason.


----------



## ConanHub

tech-novelist said:


> More men than women are victims of domestic violence: CDC Study: More Men than Women Victims of Partner Abuse » SAVE: Stop Abusive and Violent Environments
> 
> So maybe that's not the reason.


My oldest son is a victim of his wife. He could use a safe place for counseling and to get his head on straight, more so than a place to physically escape.

This is a very underreported problem with very limited resources for men in this situation.


----------



## 269370

tech-novelist said:


> More men than women are victims of domestic violence: CDC Study: More Men than Women Victims of Partner Abuse » SAVE: Stop Abusive and Violent Environments
> 
> So maybe that's not the reason.




How do they measure this? What does being a ‘victim’ means? Are the men beaten unconscious by their wives? Can the men not defend themselves? Are those wives twice the size of the husband? 
I find these statistics somewhat ridiculous....Yes, some women can and do abuse men (verbally, emotionally, financially etc). But physically? I don’t think so. If you can defend yourself and, crucially, you are stronger, it’s not abuse. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

No

Maybe because my longevity clock is likely set to exceed hers. 





sokillme said:


> Do you fear getting old with her? Like what if you get an illness do you think this will push her away?


----------



## personofinterest

Girl_power said:


> tech-novelist said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think is the reason that there are no men's shelters?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because biologically speaking men are or can be a threat to women (physically), and women generally are a threat to men physically.
Click to expand...

So a woman cant hurt a man with a knife, gun, bat, car, etc?


----------



## personofinterest

tech-novelist said:


> Girl_power said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because biologically speaking men are or can be a threat to women (physically), and women generally are a threat to men physically.
> 
> 
> 
> More men than women are victims of domestic violence: CDC Study: More Men than Women Victims of Partner Abuse » SAVE: Stop Abusive and Violent Environments
> 
> So maybe that's not the reason.
Click to expand...

I believe women can be just as abusive as men. I'm not sure I believe there are more abused men than women. I'd guess about even.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

InMyPrime said:


> How do they measure this? What does being a ‘victim’ means? Are the men beaten unconscious by their wives? Can the men not defend themselves? Are those wives twice the size of the husband?
> I find these statistics somewhat ridiculous....Yes, some women can and do abuse men (verbally, emotionally, financially etc). But physically? I don’t think so. If you can defend yourself and, crucially, you are stronger, it’s not abuse.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There's a lot of women who can fight back but they never do. They can defend themselves but they never do. If some 6'5" 250lbs man was attacking me, I would still fight back. Why do you think these men and women who can fight back never choose to fight back? 

It doesn't always have to do with physical strength.


----------



## Marduk

ConanHub said:


> My oldest son is a victim of his wife. He could use a safe place for counseling and to get his head on straight, more so than a place to physically escape.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very underreported problem with very limited resources for men in this situation.




I experienced this in my first marriage. It wasn’t good. And I didn’t report it or tell anyone, because nobody would have believed me. 

But at the same time, while it was upsetting, I also didn’t feel the need to escape to a shelter. I could have just left on my own and been ok. 

Maybe that’s the difference. My experience with women’s shelters is primarily women with small children and no means to leave and keep their children safe, warm, and fed.


----------



## ConanHub

personofinterest said:


> I believe women can be just as abusive as men. I'm not sure I believe there are more abused men than women. I'd guess about even.


It is just a lot less reported when the aggressor is the woman.


----------



## ConanHub

Marduk said:


> I experienced this in my first marriage. It wasn’t good. And I didn’t report it or tell anyone, because nobody would have believed me.
> 
> But at the same time, while it was upsetting, I also didn’t feel the need to escape to a shelter. I could have just left on my own and been ok.
> 
> Maybe that’s the difference. My experience with women’s shelters is primarily women with small children and no means to leave and keep their children safe, warm, and fed.


Yup. Sometimes he just goes for a walk or to a friend to get away.

My oldest isn't biologically mine and he is much smaller than me or my youngest. His wife is taller and bigger than him. He isn't weak but can barely fend her off without hurting her.

He doesn't have it in him to hurt her either. He wasn't raised to harm a woman.


----------



## Marduk

InMyPrime said:


> How do they measure this? What does being a ‘victim’ means? Are the men beaten unconscious by their wives? Can the men not defend themselves? Are those wives twice the size of the husband?
> I find these statistics somewhat ridiculous....Yes, some women can and do abuse men (verbally, emotionally, financially etc). But physically? I don’t think so. If you can defend yourself and, crucially, you are stronger, it’s not abuse.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



A couple examples from my ex wife. 

She started arguing with me, getting in my face, screaming at me. I think it was about doing the laundry wrong or dishes or something. At any rate, she had me backed up against a wall and I couldn’t leave when she started slapping me. After about 15 slaps, with many others that I blocked gently, I pushed her away from me so I could get away. She threatened to call the cops. 

Was I in real danger? No. I did ask a cop later about what would have happened, and he said I would have been arrested on the spot and likely spent the night in jail. So the real danger was in being reported. 

Another time, I had cleaned a frying pan wrong, so she threw it at my head and I hit the ground. I hadn’t seen it coming, and it KO’d me. I was in danger that time. She didn’t apologize, but she did agree to start going to marriage counselling - as long as we didn’t directly discuss her violence and “make it all about her.”

That time I was in real danger, but we split up within weeks of that anyway. 

This stuff happens. Probably more than people know.


----------



## Girl_power

TheDudeLebowski said:


> There's a lot of women who can fight back but they never do. They can defend themselves but they never do. If some 6'5" 250lbs man was attacking me, I would still fight back. Why do you think these men and women who can fight back never choose to fight back?
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't always have to do with physical strength.




I would never fight back. I would quietly take a beating and wait for it to be over and leave then fight back and be killed.


----------



## personofinterest

ConanHub said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe women can be just as abusive as men. I'm not sure I believe there are more abused men than women. I'd guess about even.
> 
> 
> 
> It is just a lot less reported when the aggressor is the woman.
Click to expand...

Oh I have no doubt, and that is a huge shame. I still dont think the gap is that big, especially if you add things like marital/relational rape.

Regardless, even if only one man on earth were abused, he still deserves empathy.

Not having empathy for another human based on what's in their underwear is a character flaw, IMO


----------



## Girl_power

“I asked a group of men why they feel threatened by women, they replied that they were afraid that women might laugh at them. When I asked a group of women why they felt threatened by men, they said they were afraid men might kill them.”

I heard this quote somewhere... and I think there is some truth to it.


----------



## Girl_power

Girl_power said:


> “I asked a group of men why they feel threatened by women, they replied that they were afraid that women might laugh at them. When I asked a group of women why they felt threatened by men, they said they were afraid men might kill them.”
> 
> I heard this quote somewhere... and I think there is some truth to it.




And my point is that some men have very fragile egos, and some women have very fragile bodies.

I think most women are tough as nails... on the inside. And I think most men are babies in their huge strong bodies.


----------



## ConanHub

personofinterest said:


> Oh I have no doubt, and that is a huge shame. I still dont think the gap is that big, especially if you add things like marital/relational rape.
> 
> Regardless, even if only one man on earth were abused, he still deserves empathy.
> 
> Not having empathy for another human based on what's in their underwear is a character flaw, IMO


I agree with you about it probably being similar in numbers.

Just as many a holes with a vajajay as a wang.


----------



## ConanHub

Girl_power said:


> And my point is that some men have very fragile egos, and some women have very fragile bodies.


You will find no argument with me.

Abuse is still abuse.

I could probably stand still and take everything my wife could dish out physically, guarding the jewels of course, and walk away with abrasions and bruises.

I can't hit anyone as hard as I can without risking inflicting serious injury or even death.

Some really nasty women take full advantage of this difference to unleash their spleen physically on men.


----------



## ConanHub

Girl_power said:


> And my point is that some men have very fragile egos, and some women have very fragile bodies.
> 
> I think most women are tough as nails... on the inside. And I think most men are babies in their huge strong bodies.


Interesting thoughts you have there. You probably have anecdotal evidence in your life that most men are babies.


----------



## Girl_power

ConanHub said:


> You will find no argument with me.
> 
> 
> 
> Abuse is still abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> I could probably stand still and take everything my wife could dish out physically, guarding the jewels of course, and walk away with abrasions and bruises.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't hit anyone as hard as I can without risking inflicting serious injury or even death.
> 
> 
> 
> Some really nasty women take full advantage of this difference to unleash their spleen physically on men.




I get that. But you will never know what it feels like to be defenseless against someone and how scary that is. 
I was playing around with a boyfriend and wrestling and it got kind of serious, and he literally was able to restrain me with very little effort. And I am not small and I was TRYING really really hard to get out and I am strong! And it was with no effort that he held me off and I exhausted myself. It really scared me. Because I know that there is no competition between me and some men and it’s scary. And as a women I walk around with that knowledge everyday.


----------



## Girl_power

ConanHub said:


> Interesting thoughts you have there. You probably have anecdotal evidence in your life that most men are babies.




This is what I have experienced... when men in my life have a cold they act like they are dying. When the men in my life are stressed, they need to be able to come home and decompress and be left alone for hours. Women in my life run on stress, they don’t know what it’s like not to have stress, or a million things to do. Women in my life can’t come home from a stressful day at work and take hours to decompress. That’s my experience which I am fully aware of is super biased.


----------



## ConanHub

Girl_power said:


> I get that. But you will never know what it feels like to be defenseless against someone and how scary that is.
> I was playing around with a boyfriend and wrestling and it got kind of serious, and he literally was able to restrain me with very little effort. And I am not small and I was TRYING really really hard to get out and I am strong! And it was with no effort that he held me off and I exhausted myself. It really scared me. Because I know that there is no competition between me and some men and it’s scary. And as a women I walk around with that knowledge everyday.


I know what you are talking about intimately.

A was a pretty little child once.

I'm a bit more lenient with women when it comes to anything physical for sure and I have negative tolerance for men who abuse their physical strength with women.

I absolutely get where you're coming from and I agree.


----------



## ConanHub

Girl_power said:


> This is what I have experienced... when men in my life have a cold they act like they are dying. When the men in my life are stressed, they need to be able to come home and decompress and be left alone for hours. Women in my life run on stress, they don’t know what it’s like not to have stress, or a million things to do. Women in my life can’t come home from a stressful day at work and take hours to decompress. That’s my experience which I am fully aware of is super biased.


That's alright. It is your world and what you are use to.

I'm sorry your men have been like that.

The men in my family behave differently.


----------



## Marduk

Girl_power said:


> This is what I have experienced... when men in my life have a cold they act like they are dying. When the men in my life are stressed, they need to be able to come home and decompress and be left alone for hours. Women in my life run on stress, they don’t know what it’s like not to have stress, or a million things to do. Women in my life can’t come home from a stressful day at work and take hours to decompress. That’s my experience which I am fully aware of is super biased.




I hear that and I’ve seen that, but I’ve also only been sick requiring bed rest perhaps two or three times since we’ve had children, now teenagers. 

The last time I was sick in bed, not asking for anything except staying in bed, I was told that all men become babies when sick and I was the worst of them. All I was doing was staying in bed while we were at our vacation place instead of doing our usual stuff. I didn’t ask for anything. 

I think there’s some truth to some men being babies when sick but I also think this is uncomfortably close to being an example where many men don’t get empathy for anything. 

I’m actually changing my will so that if I ever become incapable of taking care of myself I will be put into a home, because I know my wife will not take care of me. It upset her when I told her, but it is what it is.


----------



## Girl_power

Marduk said:


> I hear that and I’ve seen that, but I’ve also only been sick requiring bed rest perhaps two or three times since we’ve had children, now teenagers.
> 
> The last time I was sick in bed, not asking for anything except staying in bed, I was told that all men become babies when sick and I was the worst of them. All I was doing was staying in bed while we were at our vacation place instead of doing our usual stuff. I didn’t ask for anything.
> 
> I think there’s some truth to some men being babies when sick but I also think this is uncomfortably close to being an example where many men don’t get empathy for anything.
> 
> I’m actually changing my will so that if I ever become incapable of taking care of myself I will be put into a home, because I know my wife will not take care of me. It upset her when I told her, but it is what it is.




I think that women like taking care of their men when they need to be taken care of. But they get annoyed when they “need” to take care of their men when they have a million things on their plate and the man isn’t “that” sick. I think if something were to really happen to you, you would be surprised that your wife will step up and take great care of you. 

I would do anything to be able to change my negative outlook on men. I know I’m bitter and I know it’s a problem.


----------



## ConanHub

Marduk said:


> I’m actually changing my will so that if I ever become incapable of taking care of myself I will be put into a home, because I know my wife will not take care of me. It upset her when I told her, but it is what it is.


Whoa!!?!

I think Mrs. C had a bit of disdain for my condition a few times when I was in a bad way, I use to get debilitating migraines, but I can't picture her being like this. Mrs. C got far more attentive after I was injured pretty badly in an accident a few years ago.

Now I can't sneeze or stub my toe without her trying to baby me.:wink2:


----------



## Girl_power

I think that we all are very focused on our own life and stresses that we forget about our partners life. Let’s be honest, life is hard and we are all stressed. I know that when I am stressed, and I come home and my boyfriend wants something or complains about something sometimes In my mind I am like well what about me!?! Or if you think your day was bad mine was way worse. Obviously we’re not saying this to our partners but I think we often think it which is toxic as well. 

So I think that empathy can be hard sometimes, especially when we think our partners life isn’t THAT hard. 

I have no problem with empathy of strangers, and those we see struggling. I also think that I empathize with my friends who share their insides with me. In my experience men don’t often share their insides like women do. And empathy is a feeling, and it’s hard to empathize with someone your not FEELING their struggle with.


----------



## Deejo

Marduk said:


> I missed your wisdom, man.


I'm glad we have the opportunity to share yours again.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Girl_power said:


> And empathy is a feeling, and it’s hard to empathize with someone your not FEELING their struggle with.


Right, so it becomes a never ending cycle. Men attempt to open up and it results in others recoiling and pulling away. So we lock away the emotions then get accused of being emotionally distant. What would you have us do?


----------



## Deejo

Girl_power said:


> I think that we all are very focused on our own life and stresses that we forget about our partners life. Let’s be honest, life is hard and we are all stressed. I know that when I am stressed, and I come home and my boyfriend wants something or complains about something sometimes In my mind I am like well what about me!?! Or if you think your day was bad mine was way worse. Obviously we’re not saying this to our partners but I think we often think it which is toxic as well.
> 
> So I think that empathy can be hard sometimes, especially when we think our partners life isn’t THAT hard.
> 
> I have no problem with empathy of strangers, and those we see struggling. I also think that I empathize with my friends who share their insides with me. In my experience men don’t often share their insides like women do. And empathy is a feeling, and it’s hard to empathize with someone your not FEELING their struggle with.


You make a good point here. I think this is often why it can be devastating when someone shares their wounds and scars. The ones you can't see. You have NO IDEA someone is carrying around the kind of pain they do, outwardly.

I've offered up before how when I was dating, I was straight up stricken with how many women shared with me that they had been abused. These weren't of course one and dones, we usually dated for at least a few months. I remember a woman I was dating, with her eyes welling up after telling me how as a teen she broke up with her boyfriend in the car, he pulled off into some woods. Raped her. And left her there. She never told anyone ... until me! Said she couldn't figure out why she was even telling me.

I think that is where the empathy part comes in. I believe my high emotional intelligence, or empathy factor, or feelz-meter, whatever the hell you want to call it, just somehow comes through. Quite the opposite of a 'dangerous' vibe, I'm pretty sure I broadcast 'safe'.

In going back to my first marriage. My ex used to say, "I love the seven year old in you." And in hindsight, I know she meant it. She asked me a few years back, "So does anyone get to see that little boy in you?"
To which I replied, "Not if I keep wanting to get blowjobs, they don't."

She laughed.


----------



## Girl_power

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Right, so it becomes a never ending cycle. Men attempt to open up and it results in others recoiling and pulling away. So we lock away the emotions then get accused of being emotionally distant. What would you have us do?




What do you mean when men attempt to open up it results in others recoiling and pulling away?


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

To add on to his point, theres very few women I've felt safe opening up to. I wouldn't feel safe opening up to you girl power. I dont mean that in a negative way towards you, I just mean I don't think it would benefit either of us you know? 

I've said a few things to my mom I've not said to anyone else, and that's really the only person. Even an anonymous forum, I'm still pretty closed off. Even in my thread discussing some of my issues, its purposefully not the entire story because I know if I was open about all the aspects and things I've said or done or not done or whatever, most of you guys would write me off. 

I've never been shown a reason to be fully open with anyone. That comes from both men and women. Men dont seem to care about most other men's struggles in general. Women recoil when men show any emotional breakdown in general. Theres no reason therefore to change what we are doing.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Girl_power said:


> What do you mean when men attempt to open up it results in others recoiling and pulling away?


Read the rest of the thread and you will see it over and over again.


----------



## Girl_power

TheDudeLebowski said:


> To add on to his point, theres very few women I've felt safe opening up to. I wouldn't feel safe opening up to you girl power. I dont mean that in a negative way towards you, I just mean I don't think it would benefit either of us you know?
> 
> 
> 
> I've said a few things to my mom I've not said to anyone else, and that's really the only person. Even an anonymous forum, I'm still pretty closed off. Even in my thread discussing some of my issues, its purposefully not the entire story because I know if I was open about all the aspects and things I've said or done or not done or whatever, most of you guys would write me off.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never been shown a reason to be fully open with anyone. That comes from both men and women. Men dont seem to care about most other men's struggles in general. Women recoil when men show any emotional breakdown in general. Theres no reason therefore to change what we are doing.




So I have heard that a lot actually and I am trying to work on it. The problem is I am very black and white and I’m on the spectrum. So talking about feelings to me is like talking about acorns and tomatoes. I have noticed that my boyfriend and my ex husband always felt attacked or judged when I talked, and they always need to defend themselves. And I know I’m the “problem” but I just don’t understand why because I’m just the complete opposite of that. I am very Introspective and I have no problem admitting to myself that I am wrong and have “bad” behavior. I don’t take offense to it at all. To me I’m very matter of fact. And I don’t get why people aren’t like this. I am Christian, and I am taught right and wrong and I am taught no human is perfect so we will always make mistakes. So when people make mistakes it’s not a big deal to me. But bothers me of when people can’t admit their mistakes and it drives me nuts.


----------



## Girl_power

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Women recoil when men show any emotional breakdown in general. Theres no reason therefore to change what we are doing.




I haven’t experienced this.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Girl_power said:


> I haven’t experienced this.


Right, you are a woman.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Girl_power said:


> So I have heard that a lot actually and I am trying to work on it. The problem is I am very black and white and I’m on the spectrum. So talking about feelings to me is like talking about acorns and tomatoes. I have noticed that my boyfriend and my ex husband always felt attacked or judged when I talked, and they always need to defend themselves. And I know I’m the “problem” but I just don’t understand why because I’m just the complete opposite of that. I am very Introspective and I have no problem admitting to myself that I am wrong and have “bad” behavior. I don’t take offense to it at all. To me I’m very matter of fact. And I don’t get why people aren’t like this. I am Christian, and I am taught right and wrong and I am taught no human is perfect so we will always make mistakes. So when people make mistakes it’s not a big deal to me. But bothers me of when people can’t admit their mistakes and it drives me nuts.


Even how this post comes across is "I have these issues, so what? You have issues too" which is a little less self aware than I think you realize. Its certainly not empathy.


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## 269370

personofinterest said:


> So a woman cant hurt a man with a knife, gun, bat, car, etc?



She could, but that would be cheating 


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## OnTheFly

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I've said a few things to my mom I've not said to anyone else, and that's really the only person.


As per the theme of this thread, I could not confide in my Mom or fully with my wifey. Only one of my four brothers knows anything about me.



TheDudeLebowski said:


> Even an anonymous forum, I'm still pretty closed off.


There IS someone who knows you (and me) inside out.


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## 269370

TheDudeLebowski said:


> There's a lot of women who can fight back but they never do. They can defend themselves but they never do. If some 6'5" 250lbs man was attacking me, I would still fight back. Why do you think these men and women who can fight back never choose to fight back?
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't always have to do with physical strength.




There could be different reasons. In order to fight back, you also need some mental strength. Also, sometimes the instinct will override the desire to fight back: it’s actually often safer NOT to fight back. Bit like pretending you are dead when a bear is attacking you.


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## 269370

Marduk said:


> A couple examples from my ex wife.
> 
> She started arguing with me, getting in my face, screaming at me. I think it was about doing the laundry wrong or dishes or something. At any rate, she had me backed up against a wall and I couldn’t leave when she started slapping me. After about 15 slaps, with many others that I blocked gently, I pushed her away from me so I could get away. She threatened to call the cops.
> 
> Was I in real danger? No. I did ask a cop later about what would have happened, and he said I would have been arrested on the spot and likely spent the night in jail. So the real danger was in being reported.
> 
> Another time, I had cleaned a frying pan wrong, so she threw it at my head and I hit the ground. I hadn’t seen it coming, and it KO’d me. I was in danger that time. She didn’t apologize, but she did agree to start going to marriage counselling - as long as we didn’t directly discuss her violence and “make it all about her.”
> 
> That time I was in real danger, but we split up within weeks of that anyway.
> 
> This stuff happens. Probably more than people know.



Oh don’t get me wrong, women can and do abuse some men, causing emotional pain to the extend where a man perhaps would beg for some physical punishment instead - i don’t want to minimise this. The abuse just typically happens in different ways. Physical harm to men is not the typical way. That’s one of the areas where ‘equalisation’ does not really map onto reality, though in some cases it does. 

In your case, I don’t know what the issues were. But sounds like she had issues...could have been hormonal (PMS), **** knows.

I would never advocate violence, but sometimes a woman would do this in order to get a reaction out of a guy: she will try to push him ‘over the edge’ and won’t stop until he ‘loses’ it, with words or physical stuff. In those cases, i actually think pretending that you lost it, to get her off your back, might not be such a wrong thing, like a (gentle) slap or spank. You need to get the Crazy under control, screw being pc about it.
She will probably go insane for a moment, but will leave you alone immediately. This is self defence btw. Yes, you can spank people in self defence too 
You just need to be sure that you don’t ACTUALLY lose it and not start beating the crap out of her. Then it’s obviously not ok...
Then it’s better to get her out of your way (which may still involve some spanking if she is physically preventing you from leaving) and just leave. You have to judge it carefully what’s the most appropriate thing to do at the time.
Anyway, sounds like it’s all water under the bridge now anyway.



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## 269370

Girl_power said:


> I would never fight back. I would quietly take a beating and wait for it to be over and leave then fight back and be killed.



Yes exactly, most gazelles would do the same. And it’s the right thing to do.


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## 269370

ConanHub said:


> Interesting thoughts you have there. You probably have anecdotal evidence in your life that most men are babies.



That’s because they are, it’s completely true.


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## 269370

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Right, so it becomes a never ending cycle. Men attempt to open up and it results in others recoiling and pulling away. So we lock away the emotions then get accused of being emotionally distant. What would you have us do?



It’s about balance, very simple.
And of course, different women will behave differently, given the same set of circumstances in the end.


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## Girl_power

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Even how this post comes across is "I have these issues, so what? You have issues too" which is a little less self aware than I think you realize. Its certainly not empathy.




The point of my thread is to basically say I don’t get it because I don’t. I’m fully aware that I don’t get it. To me, I communicate normal. I don’t think other people communicate normally Bc I don’t get it. Obviously I live in the real world were people keep telling me I’m weird and wrong. 

It feels like everyone telling you the sky is orange. But you know that it’s blue. It’s very difficult.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Girl_power said:


> The point of my thread is to basically say I don’t get it because I don’t. I’m fully aware that I don’t get it. To me, I communicate normal. I don’t think other people communicate normally Bc I don’t get it. Obviously I live in the real world were people keep telling me I’m weird and wrong.
> 
> It feels like everyone telling you the sky is orange. But you know that it’s blue. It’s very difficult.


You are you and what you have to offer might be perspective others need to hear because they can't think in a way you can. This will lead to your own struggles unfortunately, but being a Christian, think of it as you are God's gift to others who have lost their way and conventional wisdom doesn't reach them. 

The only thing I might recommend is looking outside yourself to widen your own perspective. Being self aware is critical and many have no ability. But you can be so wrapped up in self awareness that you lose sight of others as a result. I worry you have gone down this path too far. To the point where understanding of others has now become foreign. I suspect this is a defense mechanism you have developed through your own trauma you've experienced. "Focus on yourself" is good to a point, but if you go to far it starts to hurt you and your ability to relate with others.


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## TheDudeLebowski

InMyPrime said:


> It’s about balance, very simple.
> And of course, different women will behave differently, given the same set of circumstances in the end.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dont put all your emotional eggs in one basket? Can you clarify please.


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## TheDudeLebowski

One thing I want to add as far as toxic masculinity is concerned. When I was young, very young, i remember playing tee ball. There was a particular game we lost and it hit everyone on our team very hard. Kids HATE losing :laugh:

After the game, I remember moms offering words of comfort to their sons. My mom was all cheery words of "did your best" and "you can't win them all..." My dad wasn't there, like always. I remember looking at the other kids and the dads would just simply say "it's alright son" and the boys would gravitate towards them, not their moms. No words needed. They just needed a rock. Someone they could go to and cry on. They didn't need uplifting words, they didn't want them. In that moment, they needed a rock steady presence. I remember thinking "that's what it's like to have a dad" 

Pray tell, how is that toxic?


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## 269370

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Dont put all your emotional eggs in one basket? Can you clarify please.



Not really. My point was that if your partner really cares about you, they will listen and they will take care of you when you are seriously ill or in need (a man-cold doesn’t count ). Just as @Girl_power said. 
Men put a lot of this stuff (but not all of it - there really are women that don’t give a **** or not enough ****s) on themselves, in terms of bottling up. 
I don’t know if it is a genetic trait to bottle up or societal conditioning/bringing up.
I know I can count on my wife in difficult times. But she won’t put up with my whining. That’s what I meant about balance. We are all so innately ego-centric, that we sometimes forget that there are others, most closest to us, that have issues too.


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## tech-novelist

Girl_power said:


> I would never fight back. I would quietly take a beating and wait for it to be over and leave then fight back and be killed.


Guns make everyone the same size.
That's why one of the main effects of making it easier to carry a weapon is a reduction in rapes.


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## Girl_power

tech-novelist said:


> Guns make everyone the same size.
> That's why one of the main effects of making it easier to carry a weapon is a reduction in rapes.




Ok I would rather take a beating and a mugging than be a murderer even if it is in self defense.


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## 269370

tech-novelist said:


> Guns make everyone the same size.
> That's why one of the main effects of making it easier to carry a weapon is a reduction in rapes.



Because the rapist would become sexually more interested in the gun he just acquired by force, or for some other reason?


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## tech-novelist

Girl_power said:


> Ok I would rather take a beating and a mugging than be a murderer even if it is in self defense.


That makes a couple of assumptions that may need further consideration:
1. You assume that you would survive the beating or mugging, and
2. Self defense is murder.

Of course there are no interviews with people who thought they would survive a beating or mugging but were wrong. That's because they are dead.

And not only is self-defense not murder (it is killing, of course, but murder is *intentional wrongful* killing). It also prevents you from being murdered but prevents the attacker from harming others. If he will do that to you, why do you think he won't do it again if he can?


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## Faithful Wife

tech-novelist said:


> That makes a couple of assumptions that may need further consideration:
> 1. You assume that you would survive the beating or mugging, and
> 2. Self defense is murder.
> 
> Of course there are no interviews with people who thought they would survive a beating or mugging but were wrong. That's because they are dead.
> 
> And not only is self-defense not murder (it is killing, of course, but murder is *intentional wrongful* killing). It also prevents you from being murdered but prevents the attacker from harming others. If he will do that to you, why do you think he won't do it again if he can?


Tech, personally I refuse to run scenarios like this in my head, because I’m not going catastrophe shopping.

Second, if I’m going to go out by the hand of some freak, then that is my fate. I’m not going to consider it my responsibility to kill him first so that he won’t kill others. 

It’s sort of odd that you seem to be saying we have that type of responsibility.

Third, like gun enthusiasts are usually telling us, criminals don’t folow any rules. So whatever gun fight I might imagine I could possibly win against a criminal with a gun in my face is simply a fantasy. I will be dead the moment he decides to kill me.


----------



## tech-novelist

Faithful Wife said:


> Tech, personally I refuse to run scenarios like this in my head, because I’m not going catastrophe shopping.
> 
> Second, if I’m going to go out by the hand of some freak, then that is my fate. I’m not going to consider it my responsibility to kill him first so that he won’t kill others.
> 
> It’s sort of odd that you seem to be saying we have that type of responsibility.
> 
> Third, like gun enthusiasts are usually telling us, criminals don’t folow any rules. So whatever gun fight I might imagine I could possibly win against a criminal with a gun in my face is simply a fantasy. I will be dead the moment he decides to kill me.


It's your life. You're the only one who can decide how to live it.
I know I'd rather try to stop someone from killing me or a loved one if I had the chance.
The fact that doing so may save someone else doesn't mean I have an obligation to do so; it's just a bonus.

And as far as winning a gun fight, that's not what I was talking about. There are millions of incidents of self-defense using a gun per year, including several hundred thousand cases where women defend themselves against attack with a gun. 

Here are some facts about this issue:

"Fact: Of the 2,500,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% (192,500) are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.

Fact: When a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of rape attacks were completed, compared to 32% when the woman was unarmed. 

Fact: The probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no resistance than for women resisting with guns. Men also benefit from using guns, but the benefits are smaller: Men are 1.4 times more likely to receive a serious injury. "

(from Gun Facts | Gun Control, Guns and Crime Prevention)


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## Faithful Wife

tech-novelist said:


> It's your life. You're the only one who can decide how to live it.
> I know I'd rather try to stop someone from killing me or a loved one if I had the chance.
> The fact that doing so may save someone else doesn't mean I have an obligation to do so; it's just a bonus.
> 
> And as far as winning a gun fight, that's not what I was talking about. There are millions of incidents of self-defense using a gun per year, including several hundred thousand cases where women defend themselves against attack with a gun.
> 
> Here are some facts about this issue:
> 
> "Fact: Of the 2,500,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% (192,500) are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.
> 
> Fact: When a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of rape attacks were completed, compared to 32% when the woman was unarmed.
> 
> Fact: The probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no resistance than for women resisting with guns. Men also benefit from using guns, but the benefits are smaller: Men are 1.4 times more likely to receive a serious injury. "
> 
> (from Gun Facts | Gun Control, Guns and Crime Prevention)


I’m not going to be able to kill someone, Tech. 

If I get attacked of course I would do my best to fight. I might get lucky and gouge his eyes and run. If not, he’s going to kill me.

Not a lovely thought. But the thought of me killing someone just in time before he kills me ... I’d rather just face death instead.

Though as I already said, I honestly never think about this. I am not going to give this type of thought even a moment of my mental real estate.


----------



## Marduk

InMyPrime said:


> Oh don’t get me wrong, women can and do abuse some men, causing emotional pain to the extend where a man perhaps would beg for some physical punishment instead - i don’t want to minimise this. The abuse just typically happens in different ways. Physical harm to men is not the typical way. That’s one of the areas where ‘equalisation’ does not really map onto reality, though in some cases it does.
> 
> In your case, I don’t know what the issues were. But sounds like she had issues...could have been hormonal (PMS), **** knows.
> 
> I would never advocate violence, but sometimes a woman would do this in order to get a reaction out of a guy: she will try to push him ‘over the edge’ and won’t stop until he ‘loses’ it, with words or physical stuff. In those cases, i actually think pretending that you lost it, to get her off your back, might not be such a wrong thing, like a (gentle) slap or spank. You need to get the Crazy under control, screw being pc about it.
> She will probably go insane for a moment, but will leave you alone immediately. This is self defence btw. Yes, you can spank people in self defence too
> You just need to be sure that you don’t ACTUALLY lose it and not start beating the crap out of her. Then it’s obviously not ok...
> Then it’s better to get her out of your way (which may still involve some spanking if she is physically preventing you from leaving) and just leave. You have to judge it carefully what’s the most appropriate thing to do at the time.
> Anyway, sounds like it’s all water under the bridge now anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Her issue was that she was cheating, I didn’t know it, and trying to be brutal enough that I would leave. Only I didn’t. 

So she upped the ante to physical violence. 

When that didn’t work, she left and then made up stories about why. 

It wasn’t PMS. It was planned, deliberate, and meaningful.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Faithful Wife said:


> I’m not going to be able to kill someone, Tech.
> 
> If I get attacked of course I would do my best to fight. I might get lucky and gouge his eyes and run. If not, he’s going to kill me.
> 
> Not a lovely thought. But the thought of me killing someone just in time before he kills me ... I’d rather just face death instead.
> 
> Though as I already said, I honestly never think about this. I am not going to give this type of thought even a moment of my mental real estate.


Also @tech-novelist

I am not a gun hater. I do want something to change regarding mass shootings but that doesn’t mean I’m all against guns or think people who have them are bad or wrong. I have female friends who have guns, both for protection and hunting. I think they are bad asses.

My choices for myself don’t mean that I feel anyone else should do what I’m doing.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Girl_power said:


> Ok I would rather take a beating and a mugging than be a murderer even if it is in self defense.


Agreed, but I'm a pacifist. One of the reasons I'm big on pepper spray. Also I have suicidal thoughts too regularly and I've proven I'm too impulsive to trust myself with a gun.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Girl_power said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok I would rather take a beating and a mugging than be a murderer even if it is in self defense.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, but I'm a pacifist. One of the reasons I'm big on pepper spray. Also I have suicidal thoughts too regularly and I've proven I'm too impulsive to trust myself with a gun.
Click to expand...

I have wasp spray. The kind that sprays 15 feet in a solid stream.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> I have wasp spray. The kind that sprays 15 feet in a solid stream.


Those are considered pesticides, meaning they regulate the strength. Same with bear sprays. Sounds like a bear spray would be more powerful but its actually not. Good old fashioned capsaicin at 1,500,000 scoville will drop ANYONE. Dont give a **** how hard you think you are. No lasting damage. Just have to be careful of the wind. There's your downside to sprays. Calculated on my part. I have no business having access to a gun. I know how my mind works. 

As far as mass shootings, the blood is on all our hands for spreading our hatred so far and wide, knowing human's propensity for violence.


----------



## ConanHub

tech-novelist said:


> It's your life. You're the only one who can decide how to live it.
> I know I'd rather try to stop someone from killing me or a loved one if I had the chance.
> The fact that doing so may save someone else doesn't mean I have an obligation to do so; it's just a bonus.
> 
> And as far as winning a gun fight, that's not what I was talking about. There are millions of incidents of self-defense using a gun per year, including several hundred thousand cases where women defend themselves against attack with a gun.
> 
> Here are some facts about this issue:
> 
> "Fact: Of the 2,500,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% (192,500) are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.
> 
> Fact: When a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of rape attacks were completed, compared to 32% when the woman was unarmed.
> 
> Fact: The probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no resistance than for women resisting with guns. Men also benefit from using guns, but the benefits are smaller: Men are 1.4 times more likely to receive a serious injury. "
> 
> (from Gun Facts | Gun Control, Guns and Crime Prevention)


Tech, I'm with you on this but I have learned that some just are who they are and the world maybe needs all types.

FW and GP are not warriors. It's ok. Maybe everyone can paint like Bob Ross used to say but maybe not everyone should or wants to either.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

ConanHub said:


> Tech, I'm with you on this but I have learned that some just are who they are and the world maybe needs all types.
> 
> FW and GP are not warriors. It's ok. Maybe everyone can paint like Bob Ross used to say but maybe not everyone should or wants to either.


I'm no warrior. I learned long ago. 

You exemplify the saying "it's better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in war" meaning you could do all the damage, but you choose to remain peaceful. Given your past, you could have become an absolute nightmare of a person. But you are in your garden, a warrior still, so should the need arise you will leap into action. But you're not out there looking for it. Mad respect.

Me, the last time I got into a fight was 8th grade with some kid who was in 10th. He drove by the bus stop and talked ****. I started talking **** back and he said he would be waiting after school. So I'm getting hyped all day. This kid outweighed me by about 50lbs at least and was taller. So my friends told me just to catch him off guard. After school, sure enough he was there. I walked straight up to him, no words and punched first. Worked, caught him off guard. We fought for a good 3-4 minutes, which in street fight terms, you know is a long ass time! It ended when some older people came out of their house and yelling at us to stop. This guy was on probation, so he bounced quick. 

In the end he was bleeding from his lip and above his eye. I was bleeding from my left ear and both my hands were ****ed up and swollen. I thought "what the hell was the point of all that?" Because nobody really won the fight. We were both pretty ****ed up and there was really no clear cut winner. I realized I'll never fight again after that. 

Fortunately I was blessed with the ability to talk myself into and out of just about any situation. This has been tested over and over and I'm actually pretty damn good at it. So I'll play to that strength, and remain a pacifist. Its helped others out too, not just myself. I'm certainly no warrior :laugh:


----------



## tech-novelist

Faithful Wife said:


> I’m not going to be able to kill someone, Tech.
> 
> If I get attacked of course I would do my best to fight. I might get lucky and gouge his eyes and run. If not, he’s going to kill me.
> 
> Not a lovely thought. But the thought of me killing someone just in time before he kills me ... I’d rather just face death instead.
> 
> Though as I already said, I honestly never think about this. I am not going to give this type of thought even a moment of my mental real estate.


In reality, you probably wouldn't have to kill anyone. Most defensive uses of guns don't even result in a shot being fired. The perpetrator takes off without further incident.

But again, it's your life and so it has to be up to you.


----------



## ConanHub

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Agreed, but I'm a pacifist. One of the reasons I'm big on pepper spray. Also I have suicidal thoughts too regularly and I've proven I'm too impulsive to trust myself with a gun.


I'm really glad you're smart and self aware.

You need to stick around.:wink2:

You gonna buy me a brew next time I'm in the DFW area anyway.:grin2:


----------



## Faithful Wife

tech-novelist said:


> In reality, you probably wouldn't have to kill anyone. Most defensive uses of guns don't even result in a shot being fired. The perpetrator takes off without further incident.
> 
> But again, it's your life and so it has to be up to you.


This is the only gun I have, and it’s fun as hell. :wink2:


----------



## Deejo

Girl_power said:


> I have noticed that my boyfriend and my ex husband always felt attacked or judged when I talked, and they always need to defend themselves. And I know I’m the “problem” but I just don’t understand why because I’m just the complete opposite of that. I am very Introspective and I have no problem admitting to myself that I am wrong and have “bad” behavior. I don’t take offense to it at all. To me I’m very matter of fact. And I don’t get why people aren’t like this. I am Christian, and I am taught right and wrong and I am taught no human is perfect so we will always make mistakes. So when people make mistakes it’s not a big deal to me. But bothers me of when people can’t admit their mistakes and it drives me nuts.


Personal experience once again. I am husband number four for dear wife. That tends to garner a few gasps whenever I offer that up. Truly doesn't bother me at all. As far as I'm concerned, I'm husband #1. She has insisted that I am the first man she has EVER been involved with to whom she can offer up criticism or suggestions for conducting myself/ourselves differently in our relationship, and I DON'T get defensive. She points out, as you do, that if ever she tried to offer approaching something 'differently' with past partners, they took it as a personal attack, turned it around on her and fomented what was supposed to be a discussion about relationship improvement, into a full out fight.

Your post makes me wonder just how common THAT occurs. Given the self-selecting group of guys that tend to post here, I would suspect that most men participating in a marriage improvement/recovery forum would not fall into that category of, "If I feel like I'm being attacked by my partner, attack back."

I guess I'm equating that behavior mechanism with the contrast @Faithful Wife makes about women feeling empathy for men? Or if somehow the two are tangled up together? Man suspects he isn't going to get empathy or understanding from his partner, and therefore decides to go in guns blazing/shields up rather than having an open mind? 

Also feel compelled to qualify, that I know this can cut both ways. My ex-wife grew up in a very emotionally abusive home. She did not take criticism, constructive or otherwise very well as a result.


----------



## 269370

Marduk said:


> Her issue was that she was cheating, I didn’t know it, and trying to be brutal enough that I would leave. Only I didn’t.
> 
> So she upped the ante to physical violence.
> 
> When that didn’t work, she left and then made up stories about why.
> 
> It wasn’t PMS. It was planned, deliberate, and meaningful.



Ok so she was provoking you to make a mistake (return her violence in kind). So it could all be your fault. Good thing you didn’t flinch then.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tech-novelist

Deejo said:


> Personal experience once again. I am husband number four for dear wife. That tends to garner a few gasps whenever I offer that up. Truly doesn't bother me at all. As far as I'm concerned, I'm husband #1. She has insisted that I am the first man she has EVER been involved with to whom she can offer up criticism or suggestions for conducting myself/ourselves differently in our relationship, and I DON'T get defensive. She points out, as you do, that if ever she tried to offer approaching something 'differently' with past partners, they took it as a personal attack, turned it around on her and fomented what was supposed to be a discussion about relationship improvement, into a full out fight.
> 
> Your post makes me wonder just how common THAT occurs. Given the self-selecting group of guys that tend to post here, I would suspect that most men participating in a marriage improvement/recovery forum would not fall into that category of, "If I feel like I'm being attacked by my partner, attack back."
> 
> I guess I'm equating that behavior mechanism with the contrast @Faithful Wife makes about women feeling empathy for men? Or if somehow the two are tangled up together? Man suspects he isn't going to get empathy or understanding from his partner, and therefore decides to go in guns blazing/shields up rather than having an open mind?
> 
> Also feel compelled to qualify, that I know this can cut both ways. My ex-wife grew up in a very emotionally abusive home. She did not take criticism, constructive or otherwise very well as a result.


I'm sort of inbetween the two camps here.

I'll usually take criticism by my wife fairly well... unless I think it is tremendously unfair or I'm under a lot of stress at the moment and don't have time for it.

In those cases, I'm likely to respond negatively. After I cool down, I'll apologize for getting steamed up.


----------



## farsidejunky

Faithful Wife said:


> This is the only gun I have, and it’s fun as hell. :wink2:
> 
> 
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EesfhOGt9Kk


I got one of those for Christmas last year. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest

Girl_power said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even how this post comes across is "I have these issues, so what? You have issues too" which is a little less self aware than I think you realize. Its certainly not empathy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point of my thread is to basically say I don’t get it because I don’t. I’m fully aware that I don’t get it. To me, I communicate normal. I don’t think other people communicate normally Bc I don’t get it. Obviously I live in the real world were people keep telling me I’m weird and wrong.
> 
> It feels like everyone telling you the sky is orange. But you know that it’s blue. It’s very difficult.
Click to expand...

I have a daughter on the spectrum. I think one of the reasons she doesn't struggle as much as you do is because she understands that SHE is the one insisting the sky is orange. Because she knows she lives in a blue sky world, she strives to adapt to THAT world instead of insisting everyone else live in an orange sky world.


----------



## 269370

Nowadays everyone seems to be 'on the spectrum'...which must be difficult for people that actually have mental illnesses.
I don't find anything Gril_power wrote here as 'on the spectrum'. It just seems she is being honest about exactly how she feels/felt. I would rather someone told me stuff straight up than saying one thing but actually feeling something different.
Much easier to resolve the former.


----------



## Marduk

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Those are considered pesticides, meaning they regulate the strength. Same with bear sprays. Sounds like a bear spray would be more powerful but its actually not. Good old fashioned capsaicin at 1,500,000 scoville will drop ANYONE. Dont give a **** how hard you think you are. No lasting damage. Just have to be careful of the wind. There's your downside to sprays. Calculated on my part. I have no business having access to a gun. I know how my mind works.
> 
> As far as mass shootings, the blood is on all our hands for spreading our hatred so far and wide, knowing human's propensity for violence.




I’ve heard of some people getting long term vision and airway impairment from being pepper sprayed.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Marduk said:


> I’ve heard of some people getting long term vision and airway impairment from being pepper sprayed.


Different chemicals are used in different sprays. Capsaicin to my knowledge has no lasting effects. I've read a lot on this subject and I'm a bit of a chili head. Using a pure pepper extract should be completely safe. It's not widely studied however so I very well could be wrong.


----------



## Marduk

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Different chemicals are used in different sprays. Capsaicin to my knowledge has no lasting effects. I've read a lot on this subject and I'm a bit of a chili head. Using a pure pepper extract should be completely safe. It's not widely studied however so I very well could be wrong.



From Wikipedia:

Pepper spray is an inflammatory agent. It inflames the mucous membranes in the eyes, nose, throat and lungs.[4] It causes immediate closing of the eyes, difficulty breathing, runny nose, and coughing.[5] The duration of its effects depends on the strength of the spray, but the average full effect lasts from 20 to 90 minutes, but eye irritation and redness can last for up to 24 hours.[6]

The Journal of Investigative Ophthalmology and Visual Science published a study that concluded that single exposure of the eye to OC is harmless, but repeated exposure can result in long-lasting changes in corneal sensitivity. They found no lasting decrease in visual acuity.[7]

The European Parliament Scientific and Technological Options Assessment (STOA) published in 1998 "An Appraisal of Technologies of Political Control"[8] with extensive information on pepper spray and tear gas. They write:

The effects of pepper spray are far more severe, including temporary blindness which lasts from 15–30 minutes, a burning sensation of the skin which lasts from 45 to 60 minutes, upper body spasms which force a person to bend forward and uncontrollable coughing making it difficult to breathe or speak for between 3 and 15 minutes.

For those with asthma, taking other drugs, or subject to restraining techniques that restrict the breathing passages, there is a risk of death. In 1995, the Los Angeles Times reported at least 61 deaths associated with police use of pepper spray since 1990 in the USA.[9] The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) documented 27 people in police custody who died after exposure to pepper spray in California since 1993.[10][11][12] However, the ACLU report counts any death occurring within hours of exposure to pepper spray. In all 27 cases, the coroners' report listed other factors as the primary cause of death, though in some cases the use of pepper spray may have been a contributing factor.[10]

The US Army concluded, in a 1993 Aberdeen Proving Ground study, that pepper spray could cause "[m]utagenic effects, carcinogenic effects, sensitization, cardiovascular and pulmonary toxicity, neurotoxicity, as well as possible human fatalities. There is a risk in using this product on a large and varied population".[13] However, the pepper spray was widely approved in the US despite the reservations of the US military scientists after it passed FBI tests in 1991. As of 1999, it was in use by more than 2,000 public safety agencies.[14]

The head of the FBI's Less-Than-Lethal Weapons Program at the time of the 1991 study, Special Agent Thomas W. W. Ward, was fired by the FBI and was sentenced to two months in prison for receiving payments from a peppergas manufacturer while conducting and authoring the FBI study that eventually approved pepper spray for FBI use.[12][15][16] Prosecutors said that from December 1989 through 1990, Ward received about $5,000 a month for a total of $57,500, from Luckey Police Products, a Fort Lauderdale, Florida-based company that was a major producer and supplier of pepper spray. The payments were paid through a Florida company owned by Ward's wife.[17]

Pepper spray has been associated with positional asphyxiation of individuals in police custody. There is much debate over the actual "cause" of death in these cases. There have been few controlled clinical studies of the human health effects of pepper spray marketed for police use, and those studies are contradictory. Some studies have found no harmful effects beyond the effects described above.[18]

Direct close-range spray can cause more serious eye irritation by attacking the cornea with a concentrated stream of liquid (the so-called "hydraulic needle" effect). Some brands have addressed this problem by means of an elliptically cone-shaped spray pattern.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray


----------



## personofinterest

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Marduk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve heard of some people getting long term vision and airway impairment from being pepper sprayed.
> 
> 
> 
> Different chemicals are used in different sprays. Capsaicin to my knowledge has no lasting effects. I've read a lot on this subject and I'm a bit of a chili head. Using a pure pepper extract should be completely safe. It's not widely studied however so I very well could be wrong.
Click to expand...

Honestly.....

If someone is trying to rape/attack me, I'm not much bothered by the idea of his eyesight suffering from my self-defense.

Call me a cruel old bitty lol


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Marduk said:


> From Wikipedia:
> 
> Pepper spray is an inflammatory agent. It inflames the mucous membranes in the eyes, nose, throat and lungs.[4] It causes immediate closing of the eyes, difficulty breathing, runny nose, and coughing.[5] The duration of its effects depends on the strength of the spray, but the average full effect lasts from 20 to 90 minutes, but eye irritation and redness can last for up to 24 hours.[6]
> 
> The Journal of Investigative Ophthalmology and Visual Science published a study that concluded that single exposure of the eye to OC is harmless, but repeated exposure can result in long-lasting changes in corneal sensitivity. They found no lasting decrease in visual acuity.[7]
> 
> The European Parliament Scientific and Technological Options Assessment (STOA) published in 1998 "An Appraisal of Technologies of Political Control"[8] with extensive information on pepper spray and tear gas. They write:
> 
> The effects of pepper spray are far more severe, including temporary blindness which lasts from 15–30 minutes, a burning sensation of the skin which lasts from 45 to 60 minutes, upper body spasms which force a person to bend forward and uncontrollable coughing making it difficult to breathe or speak for between 3 and 15 minutes.
> 
> For those with asthma, taking other drugs, or subject to restraining techniques that restrict the breathing passages, there is a risk of death. In 1995, the Los Angeles Times reported at least 61 deaths associated with police use of pepper spray since 1990 in the USA.[9] The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) documented 27 people in police custody who died after exposure to pepper spray in California since 1993.[10][11][12] However, the ACLU report counts any death occurring within hours of exposure to pepper spray. In all 27 cases, the coroners' report listed other factors as the primary cause of death, though in some cases the use of pepper spray may have been a contributing factor.[10]
> 
> The US Army concluded, in a 1993 Aberdeen Proving Ground study, that pepper spray could cause "[m]utagenic effects, carcinogenic effects, sensitization, cardiovascular and pulmonary toxicity, neurotoxicity, as well as possible human fatalities. There is a risk in using this product on a large and varied population".[13] However, the pepper spray was widely approved in the US despite the reservations of the US military scientists after it passed FBI tests in 1991. As of 1999, it was in use by more than 2,000 public safety agencies.[14]
> 
> The head of the FBI's Less-Than-Lethal Weapons Program at the time of the 1991 study, Special Agent Thomas W. W. Ward, was fired by the FBI and was sentenced to two months in prison for receiving payments from a peppergas manufacturer while conducting and authoring the FBI study that eventually approved pepper spray for FBI use.[12][15][16] Prosecutors said that from December 1989 through 1990, Ward received about $5,000 a month for a total of $57,500, from Luckey Police Products, a Fort Lauderdale, Florida-based company that was a major producer and supplier of pepper spray. The payments were paid through a Florida company owned by Ward's wife.[17]
> 
> Pepper spray has been associated with positional asphyxiation of individuals in police custody. There is much debate over the actual "cause" of death in these cases. There have been few controlled clinical studies of the human health effects of pepper spray marketed for police use, and those studies are contradictory. Some studies have found no harmful effects beyond the effects described above.[18]
> 
> Direct close-range spray can cause more serious eye irritation by attacking the cornea with a concentrated stream of liquid (the so-called "hydraulic needle" effect). Some brands have addressed this problem by means of an elliptically cone-shaped spray pattern.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray


Thank you, all my research admittedly has been purely on capsaicin itself and not the other things in pepper sprays. I was trying to figure out if there would be long term damage eating too many super hot peppers.


----------



## Fozzy

Faithful Wife said:


> This is the only gun I have, and it’s fun as hell. :wink2:
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EesfhOGt9Kk


I almost ordered one of these for Christmas last year!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Fozzy said:


> I almost ordered one of these for Christmas last year!


DOOOO ITTTTTTT!!!!!

It is so amazingly fun! The only bummer is when you can't find any flies to shoot. Then you start laying out raw meat and other types of bait to lure them around, which is gross and ridiculous when you think too hard about it....so you don't do that you just shoot 'em before you mind kicks in. > Also you can set up other things to shoot, if they are lightweight enough. Not as fun as flies though!

Also, you can only pull the trigger once and then you have to do the pull back thingy again. Is that called cocking? lol

So it isn't quite as fun as if you could shoot over and over.

Also, we tested it to see how dangerous/painful it is to get shot. My son blasted it right up against his arm, which was hilarious because he did it like some Rambo but then went "OUCH!!!" once it happened. Then we both laughed so hard, what, did we think it wouldn't hurt?? It left a small red welt that went away quickly. 

Definitely don't want it near anyone's eyes, of course.


----------



## Fozzy

Faithful Wife said:


> DOOOO ITTTTTTT!!!!!
> 
> It is so amazingly fun! The only bummer is when you can't find any flies to shoot. Then you start laying out raw meat and other types of bait to lure them around, which is gross and ridiculous when you think too hard about it....so you don't do that you just shoot 'em before you mind kicks in. > Also you can set up other things to shoot, if they are lightweight enough. Not as fun as flies though!
> 
> Also, you can only pull the trigger once and then you have to do the pull back thingy again. Is that called cocking? lol
> 
> So it isn't quite as fun as if you could shoot over and over.
> 
> Also, we tested it to see how dangerous/painful it is to get shot. My son blasted it right up against his arm, which was hilarious because he did it like some Rambo but then went "OUCH!!!" once it happened. Then we both laughed so hard, what, did we think it wouldn't hurt?? It left a small red welt that went away quickly.
> 
> *Definitely don't want it near anyone's eyes, of course.*


That depends on the "anyone" in question.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Fozzy said:


> That depends on the "anyone" in question.


I wouldn't rely on this thing as a self defense weapon. However, if I had it handy and can get within 3 feet of someone's eyes, you could definitely temporarily blind someone.

Just that if I was within 3 feet of someone, they could probably just grab me anyway so...


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Here's my empathy for women. I'm reminded every day that women are just so much better looking than men. It must be hard having so little to look at compared to the plethora of hot women everywhere that we get to glance at. You poor ladies.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Here's my empathy for women. I'm reminded every day that women are just so much better looking than men. It must be hard having so little to look at compared to the plethora of hot women everywhere that we get to glance at. You poor ladies.


I've made this complaint before, but no one seemed to have empathy for me. Thank you for acknowledging how difficult this is for us.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Faithful Wife said:


> DOOOO ITTTTTTT!!!!!
> 
> It is so amazingly fun! The only bummer is when you can't find any flies to shoot. Then you start laying out raw meat and other types of bait to lure them around, which is gross and ridiculous when you think too hard about it....so you don't do that you just shoot 'em before you mind kicks in. > Also you can set up other things to shoot, if they are lightweight enough. Not as fun as flies though!
> 
> Also, *you can only pull the trigger once and then you have to do the pull back thingy again.* Is that called cocking? lol
> 
> So it isn't quite as fun as if you could shoot over and over.
> 
> Also, we tested it to see how dangerous/painful it is to get shot. My son blasted it right up against his arm, which was hilarious because he did it like some Rambo but then went "OUCH!!!" once it happened. Then we both laughed so hard, what, did we think it wouldn't hurt?? It left a small red welt that went away quickly.
> 
> Definitely don't want it near anyone's eyes, of course.


Pls see the bolded. That's a lot of pumping. 

Suppose a person wanted to get thre or four flies near each other but not real close, one would need rapid fire. 

One could get a high round magazine, powered by a Co2 cartridge, both quick change and maybe a bump stock, but when ordering these items one just may be accused of getting an AR automatic firearm and labeled as a gun fanatic. 

A little irony, but it could happen.


----------



## Marduk

personofinterest said:


> Honestly.....
> 
> If someone is trying to rape/attack me, I'm not much bothered by the idea of his eyesight suffering from my self-defense.
> 
> Call me a cruel old bitty lol




Sure, no question. All I’m pointing out is that supposedly non-lethal weapons can be quite lethal, or cause chronic long-term damage.

If people don’t understand that, then they apply them very liberally thinking they are harmless.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Here's my empathy for women. I'm reminded every day that women are just so much better looking than men. It must be hard having so little to look at compared to the plethora of hot women everywhere that we get to glance at. You poor ladies.


On the flipside, I realized early on that women look at men too, and wonder "if they could".

That in itself is a game changer. Just tell a woman "no" at first, sometimes it turned into "I bet I can make you change your mind".

There are those times 😎😎😎


----------



## 269370

Fozzy said:


> I almost ordered one of these for Christmas last year!




Can you include all kinds of spices in those guns? ‘Cos this could really Man Up my cooking big time!
I’m making a machete out of meringue right now...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Here's my empathy for women. I'm reminded every day that women are just so much better looking than men. It must be hard having so little to look at compared to the plethora of hot women everywhere that we get to glance at. You poor ladies.



They should make burkas for men made out of dollar bills then it would make everything better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest

Marduk said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly.....
> 
> If someone is trying to rape/attack me, I'm not much bothered by the idea of his eyesight suffering from my self-defense.
> 
> Call me a cruel old bitty lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, no question. All I’m pointing out is that supposedly non-lethal weapons can be quite lethal, or cause chronic long-term damage.
> 
> If people don’t understand that, then they apply them very liberally thinking they are harmless.
Click to expand...

The lesson here is to not attempt to mug someone. Your victim probably isn't going to be worried about whether they used too much lol

This feels a bit like bizarro world: be sure you dont hurt the man trying to assault you lol


----------



## Marduk

personofinterest said:


> The lesson here is to not attempt to mug someone. Your victim probably isn't going to be worried about whether they used too much lol
> 
> This feels a bit like bizarro world: be sure you dont hurt the man trying to assault you lol



I think it’s more a case of “I’m feeling threatened, and this is safe, so I’m going to use it” in the case of individuals, or in the case of police “this person isn’t doing what I want, so I’ll use this just in case to make sure.”


----------



## personofinterest

Marduk said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> The lesson here is to not attempt to mug someone. Your victim probably isn't going to be worried about whether they used too much lol
> 
> This feels a bit like bizarro world: be sure you dont hurt the man trying to assault you lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it’s more a case of “I’m feeling threatened, and this is safe, so I’m going to use it” in the case of individuals, or in the case of police “this person isn’t doing what I want, so I’ll use this just in case to make sure.”
Click to expand...

Lol at the ridiculous police remark


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> The lesson here is to not attempt to mug someone. Your victim probably isn't going to be worried about whether they used too much lol
> 
> This feels a bit like bizarro world: be sure you dont hurt the man trying to assault you lol



Here in UK, it is customary to offer the burglar a cup of Earl Grey and butter biscuits, when they come to your house. You also are liable for any damage or discomfort you may cause them.
Otherwise it would be awfully impolite.
Is it not the same in the US?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

personofinterest said:


> Lol at the ridiculous police remark




“One of the big concerns with these weapons is that they’re not, in fact, non-lethal,” Davis said. “They can be lethal. And because many law enforcement officers have been trained and believe that these are simple non-lethal alternatives, it leads to overuse. And with overuse, we see more lethal incidents, as well as non-lethal incidents that still result in serious consequences.”

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.the.../san-mateo-county-taser-death-law-enforcement

Here’s a video of French police using pepper spray on non-violent protestors:
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...r-spray-seated-climate-protesters-paris-video


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> “One of the big concerns with these weapons is that they’re not, in fact, non-lethal,” Davis said. “They can be lethal. And because many law enforcement officers have been trained and believe that these are simple non-lethal alternatives, it leads to overuse. And with overuse, we see more lethal incidents, as well as non-lethal incidents that still result in serious consequences.”
> 
> https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.the.../san-mateo-county-taser-death-law-enforcement


Yes, because the police are allowed to subdue you, but not with unnecessary force. And any force that causes a long term injury will usually be considered unnecessary.


----------



## Marduk

InMyPrime said:


> Here in UK, it is customary to offer the burglar a cup of Earl Grey and butter biscuits, when they come to your house. You also are liable for any damage or discomfort you may cause them.
> Otherwise it would be awfully impolite.
> Is it not the same in the US?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Here’s how it is in Canada.


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## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, because the police are allowed to subdue you, but not with unnecessary force. And any force that causes a long term injury will usually be considered unnecessary.



The problem is that things like pepper spray, tasers, and even beanbag shooters are perceived to be harmless. But they’re not. 

Directed energy microwave crowd control is already available. It’s also perceived to be harmless. It’s also not. 

Because they are perceived to be harmless, they’re used more casually, without control or restraint.


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## Mr. Nail

This seems to have wandered a bit. Having been reassured many times that I have no emotional intelligence, I tend to choose my self defense weapons / techniques, based on 2 criteria. Will it work? Will I be able to sleep with the results, intended and collateral. I haven't been in a true self defense situation since High school. Sure drivers try to run me off the road regularly, but I just take evasive action. All other assaults were by government agents, aimed simply at bankrupting me. Fortunately they move slowly and the judicious application of truth and lawyer works most times.


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## personofinterest

Marduk said:


> InMyPrime said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here in UK, it is customary to offer the burglar a cup of Earl Grey and butter biscuits, when they come to your house. You also are liable for any damage or discomfort you may cause them.
> Otherwise it would be awfully impolite.
> Is it not the same in the US?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here’s how it is in Canada.
Click to expand...

Sadly, I think some people almost feel this way.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Faithful Wife said:


> Specifically, this was about sexual topics from a thread down in SIM (Cletus's incompatibility thread).
> 
> It was described by one woman as va-clang....when your vag shuts down due to a man's neediness (or vulnerability?)
> 
> I don't feel this way so it is very curious to me. I have only heard women online discuss this phenomenon, never in person, so I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts about it who is willing to contribute.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of men feel that women lack empathy toward men in general (and this is frequently stated by the anti-feminist crowd)....but I was mainly interested in hearing about how it affects the sexual dynamic.
> 
> However....this being TAM, people will respond however they want. :laugh:


Sorry for delayed comment:
Had it happen. Seen it happen to others. Talked to several women who admitted to it in many forms, from outright blatant descrption similar to above through to "I just found I wasnt interested in him [ie his work/interests/children!!] any more".

It's very real, but it's hormone driven and programmed in at pretty low level of biology, so really, what can you do about it, except admit it for what it is. Denying reality seldom known to improve anything.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Maxwedge 413 said:


> To Op's question,"Do women lack empathy for men?". No. Healthy women, in healthy relationships, with healthy men, do NOT lack empathy. My wife knows that I work hard to keep money in the bank, keep the large yard mowed and the large driveway shovelled in winter. And I feel comforted when I need to vent about work stress or physical pain. I know she sees me as her strong man, and also will care for me like a child if I'm hurt.
> 
> I see an alarmingly increasing # of threads on this and other forums, relating to how women are cold, unfeeling creatures preying on men. In my 45 years, numerous romances and 2 marriages, I have seen that everyone needs to give and receive love and empathy. Unfortunately through nurture or nature, some peple just have poor to no relationship skills. Just because you, Mr Man, can't find a woman that fits your "Ideal" (usually a woman that looks and acts like his mom but wants to **** him all the time), does not mean that women are evil. And to you Miss Priss, just because the men you meet at bars or online want to see how far they can get, doesn't mean all men are pigs.
> 
> Everyone wants love and companionship. Many don't know how to express themselves. Many of those were never taught how to give praise or receive affection. And some just cannot be fixed. But you cannot place blanket statements about 50% of the population , based on your limited experience.


She knows you work hard - and as long as what you "complain about" is related to that, it is seen as part of the progress - proof of you communicating how tough you are, and how proud she should be.

Show some other kind of real vulnerability, then it's all off.


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## Wolf1974

Marduk said:


> The problem is that things like pepper spray, tasers, and even beanbag shooters are perceived to be harmless. But they’re not.
> 
> Directed energy microwave crowd control is already available. It’s also perceived to be harmless. It’s also not.
> 
> Because they are perceived to be harmless, they’re used more casually, without control or restraint.


I have been a cop 20 years. None of us consider any of those tools harmless... great care must be given on when and how these are deployed. Example. Someone needing to be taken into custody trying to fight .....pepper spray is a good tool. Someone trying to drive away from a traffic stop not so much. More often than not use of force is applied correctly and under controlled circumstances however things will always go wrong when split second decisions are made, by scared humans, on another human who is doing something incredibly unpredictable. Its the nature of the work.


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## Wolf1974

Marduk said:


> Here’s how it is in Canada.
> 
> https://youtu.be/cxY0-Qr_l78


Thanks for this lol. I am showing this in my line-up today :grin2:


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## Marduk

Wolf1974 said:


> Thanks for this lol. I am showing this in my line-up today :grin2:


I love this one, too:





And even more Canadian fun for you:


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## Fozzy

Wolf1974 said:


> I have been a cop 20 years. None of us consider any of those tools harmless... great care must be given on when and how these are deployed. Example. Someone needing to be taken into custody trying to fight .....pepper spray is a good tool. Someone trying to drive away from a traffic stop not so much. More often than not use of force is applied correctly and under controlled circumstances however things will always go wrong when split second decisions are made, by scared humans, on another human who is doing something incredibly unpredictable. Its the nature of the work.



Plus, if the rumors are true that tasers can make you crap yourself, someone’s going to have to load that in the back of their patrol car.


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