# Co-Dependency Help



## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

I thought I'd post this separately from my thread as I thought maybe I'd get more information.

I've been reading everything everyone passes along to me regarding co-dependency. 

It's all on target. I don't know how I got here to this point...maybe growing up with an alcoholic father embedded these characteristics in me over the years. I know it has progressed to get worse in time. I can see that after reading all the characteristics of a co-dependent person. 

I want it to stop. How do I change it. I can't believe just the no contact with him will stop it. No contact and I am sitting here crying my eyes out. I am trying to do more me things like the increased exercise. It seems to only give me a temporary high.

I honestly feel like a drug addict coming off the drugs. 

I don't want to feed into this. How do I truly stop this and come to be able to just rebuild a new life? 

I just want to get away from him. I don't want to keep falling victim to his words.

Those that have been through this please tell me what I need to do. I'm obviously not doing enough.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Amazon.com: codependent no more



sadwithouthim said:


> I thought I'd post this separately from my thread as I thought maybe I'd get more information.
> 
> I've been reading everything everyone passes along to me regarding co-dependency.
> 
> ...


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

That is what I am reading now....Only a couple chapters in so maybe I just haven't absorbed enough infor from it yet. I will keep reading. Just hard to do when tears are rolling down your cheeks and you can't concentrate on anything but the situation that is taking place. What I have read so far now has really hit me with a reality slap. I never realized how I was being. 

I just really want out of this situation. I really really do.


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## cgrace (Sep 10, 2012)

Date, date, date, date, and hang out with all your single friends as much as possible. As soon as you first few steps your into the new life, you find yourself able to take a few more steps more higher, then few more after. When you past enough steps you will look back and compare how you felt then and the relief you felt after enough steps. It's like crossing a bridge full of thumbtacks, but when you get to the other side, you see a whole path to a new river in front of you which made those thumbtacks worth to cross. Easier said than done, I know. Takes a lot of mind preparation to do it. Meditation is a great tool. Writing down your dream relationship will help and believing and taking action to do it will help. If you plan to stay single, write down your goals to accomplish being single. It will help you remind yourself what to keep looking forward to. 

Change your perspective and really take initiative: You were once a baby, codependent on your parents/guardians carrying you everywhere, holding your hand - You took your first baby step and you felt free! Able to walk and run! You wouldnt have felt that way unless you actually took that first step. 
Another: You're first day of Kindergarten, you were codependent on your parent/guardians watching you and babysitting you everyday - You took your first step and attended the first day of school, hopefully without screaming and kicking, that was a step you did on your own. What you dont realize is you've done alot yourself growing up with just life itself. You learned to wipe your ass on your own, you didnt need a partner next to you do it. Take the first baby step and start dating/hanging out with friends/etc. 

I hope the best for you, keep a tunnel vision on your first baby step


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

I like the concept cgrace, but I guess I am having difficulty getting to that point. It is just getting the strength and mental want to do those things. I feel stuck in this live right now. I suppose he doesn't help as everything still seems a jumbled mess. Maybe my attorney visit coming up will help sort out where to start. 

I have talked to a few men, very interested in getting to know me, and I've enjoyed talking to some of them, but I just have no desire to date. I keep thinking about my husband whom I was with for so very long....more than half my life. I just want to get him out of my head. That is what I am having difficulty with but I do understand what you are saying.. I know with doing the things you listed I will grow but just need to figure out how to get to the point of doing those things.


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## cgrace (Sep 10, 2012)

I totally understand you. My mom is going through the same thing, she's over 50. I was in that hole too where I couldnt lift a finger and have the strength and mentality to even get to it. It took for my friends to force me out to get to it. I was stuck too. I couldnt see myself go on without my husband for years. But I had to. It was hard, I know where you are, I do. I pray you will find the strength soon before you damage your sense of self-worth too deep to the point where you start becoming physically ill - it does happen. You will feel ready when YOU are ready! xoxo


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

cgrace said:


> Date, date, date, date, and hang out with all your single friends as much as possible. As soon as you first few steps your into the new life, you find yourself able to take a few more steps more higher, then few more after. When you past enough steps you will look back and compare how you felt then and the relief you felt after enough steps. It's like crossing a bridge full of thumbtacks, but when you get to the other side, you see a whole path to a new river in front of you which made those thumbtacks worth to cross. Easier said than done, I know. Takes a lot of mind preparation to do it. Meditation is a great tool. Writing down your dream relationship will help and believing and taking action to do it will help. If you plan to stay single, write down your goals to accomplish being single. It will help you remind yourself what to keep looking forward to.
> 
> Change your perspective and really take initiative: You were once a baby, codependent on your parents/guardians carrying you everywhere, holding your hand - You took your first baby step and you felt free! Able to walk and run! You wouldnt have felt that way unless you actually took that first step.
> Another: You're first day of Kindergarten, you were codependent on your parent/guardians watching you and babysitting you everyday - You took your first step and attended the first day of school, hopefully without screaming and kicking, that was a step you did on your own. What you dont realize is you've done alot yourself growing up with just life itself. You learned to wipe your ass on your own, you didnt need a partner next to you do it. Take the first baby step and start dating/hanging out with friends/etc.
> ...


I don't think you know what codependent means 

Codependent is not the same as dependent. Read up on it.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

SWH,

Have you read the article in my signature? (DO YOU LOVE...)

It's for you.

Just reading it multiple times will help you get out of this phase faster than you think.

Other than that, "NO CONTACT" for a sustained period (at least 2-3 weeks) is your surest ticket to freedom from codependency.


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

What happened to STRONG Sad? One step at a time, you know how far you have come Sad! You are an inspiration, with what you have been thru. It will be ok.. its been taking me a while too... putting myself and my needs ( and of course DS too) first, hard but I have been getting there and you are too. Hugs Sad


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## cgrace (Sep 10, 2012)

synthetic said:


> I don't think you know what codependent means
> 
> Codependent is not the same as dependent. Read up on it.


Hi there! I think I have an understanding that it means dependence on the needs of or control of another correct? Yes my description may sound confusing, but it's really just a nudge to remind one self of their past high spiritual being.  I apologize for the confusion. haha


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

synthetic said:


> SWH,
> 
> Have you read the article in my signature? (DO YOU LOVE...)
> 
> ...


Syn....how do i do this with a child together? I guess i get confused and dont know where to draw the boundaries.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Stay in therapy. You'll know it works when you're not able to accommodate someone's behavior. You might be peeved that it worked, because it means having to do something about the relationships with people who engender codependency, but at least you won't be codependent. You'll be trading an unmanageable, psychologically harmful situation, for one that's manageable, but a hassle, having the difficult conversations and so forth and knowing where you'll cut your losses vs. staying in bad relationships. You might find that you're able to transform a relationship, before it gets to be one of codependency, through self-advocacy and boundary/limit setting and natural consequences and discussion thereof. I think a co-dependent can easily become so even with healthy friends, so be careful about throwing the baby out with the bathwater...if you're in a codependent relationship, you may be more of an agent than you're willing to see/believe.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

Ok...Syn and Conrad....I am on the chapter about detachment but going back to the previous chapter and reading through the characteristics....I feel like a complete hopeless mess. It is so painful thinking about the person I became over years. The progressive list is me to a T.....feel lethargic, depressed, withdrawn and isolated (I am even doing this with my family including a bit with my son), a complete loss of daily routine and structure (I make meals for my son, but I don't eat), neglecting my son to a point (this really bothers me the most), feeling of hopeless, plans to escape this including still suicide (this has gotten better), becoming violent (this is a new one and I believe manifests from the OW), I've become emotionally and physically ill...(my eyes hurt, my stomach hurts, my heart races), the only thing on the list I haven't become is addicted to alcohol or drugs.

Is there really hope to get past this. The list of characteristics is right on. I can pick about half or more from each section of characteristics I pocess and have for a long time. They got triple worse after he left. 

So by having NC or very little will it help to reduce and eliminate some of these characteristics? I guess I am having really big issues setting up boundries with him with having a son together. Can I assume things will become easier once I find employment so I am less dependent on him? 

I feel like I really dislike him today like almost hate. I feel bad about these feelings. I feel bad I literally hate the OW. Is this again the codependency in me? If I wasn't so codependent would it be easier to ignore these feelings and just not care about either of them?


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

Find a CodA meeting in your area

Just like any other 12 step, you recognize that its something you'll really have to struggle with, and need support with.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

Matt1720 said:


> Find a CodA meeting in your area
> 
> Just like any other 12 step, you recognize that its something you'll really have to struggle with, and need support with.


 
Thanks Matt....I checked no groups within 50 miles of me. Two showed up but were inactive since 2008 and 2006. Thanks for the suggestion though.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Ponder these questions:
What is my purpose in life?
Why am I here, on this planet?
As a person, what are my goals as a human being?

Then ponder these questions:
What are my morals and beliefs?
What are my boundaries? (This one is answered by asking yourself "how do I want to be treated as human being")

Together... your boundaries and your purpose in life comprise your MODEL for living. How you should behave. How you should react.

If you aren't clear on what your life is... you can't stay on track to enforcing those goals.

What's your JOB here on Earth? Why aren't you doing it?
Tough questions.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

deejov said:


> Ponder these questions:
> What is my purpose in life?
> Why am I here, on this planet?
> As a person, what are my goals as a human being?
> ...


I keep trying to figure out those questions....my morals are clear its the boundaries and my purpose that stump me. I've become so wrapped up in him, that I have no interest myself. Pathetic is really what it is. So until I can dig myself out of this hole I'm in, I'm not sure I can answer what my purpose is.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

SWH,

Of course there's hope! Why are you even questioning it? Please avoid relying on others all the time to get reassurance about hope. We will give you reassurance as many times as needed, but it won't matter until you internalize the fact that your feelings of hopelessness and illness are all temporary. Repeat that word to yourself all the time: Temporary

There's many ways to tackle a problem. In my field of work (software engineering) it's well established that no single way is the right way or the wrong way. So here's how I tackled my codependency and insecurities (again, tackled, not fixed):

Like you, I first recognized that something was wrong with my attitude towards life regardless of how things were going with my marriage.

I then realized I was generally not as upbeat as I wanted to be. Something was slowing me down. At first I thought it was my wife. I was wrong. Then I kept looking for persons or events to blame my general depression on. It was easy to find targets, but none of them seemed like THE ONE.

I cut all contact with my wife as a desperate measure to avoid getting repeatedly hurt. This was the best decision I could've made. It forced me to look nowhere but inwards from that point on. It was also the most difficult aspect of my healing. Cutting contact was incredibly taxing. 

Many people here including Conrad and Uptown gave me solid advice and references, but I kept looking for the 'magic pill'. Most people here say there's no magic pill to healing. I don't know if I agree with that. My magic pill came in the form of the article in my signature (DO YOU LOVE...)

I had hovered over that link many times before, but always found a way to distract myself and not read it.

One day, Uptown referred me to that article for the nth time! I was feeling so f***ed up inside that I was looking for anything to hang onto. I just needed to know that I was alive. Suicidal thoughts were swarming my mind like a plague. I went to bed, couldn't sleep, so I got up very early in the morning and started reading the article. This time was different. It turned into a whole day of self-reflection, crying (OUT LOUD) and reintroduction of baby-synthetic as a child who needed re-parenting by adult-synthetic.

I've been trying to re-parent myself ever since and although I have screwed up or gotten lazy at times, it's been the biggest highlight of my growth as a human being. It helped me deal with my codependency with maturity and knowledge. It healed me.

I'm not totally free of codependency or insecurities, but I'm alive and kicking. I have grown. I'm good. 

Notice how little I spoke of my wife? It's because she has nothing to do with the root of my codependency and insecurities


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

sadwithouthim said:


> I keep trying to figure out those questions....my morals are clear its the boundaries and my purpose that stump me. I've become so wrapped up in him, that I have no interest myself. Pathetic is really what it is. So until I can dig myself out of this hole I'm in, I'm not sure I can answer what my purpose is.


Sad,

Read the first few pages of this thread.

If there's hope for this kind of person, you've got it made

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/43925-i-should-just-divorce-her.html


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

Thanks Conrad. I am going to read through this. I didn't realize Synthetic had a thread. 

I am learning a lot the past few days especially about myself. I am on the detaching section of the book. I can't believe what a mess I really am. 

Thanks for the hope link....I appreciate all the help and support.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

sadwithouthim said:


> Thanks Conrad. I am going to read through this. I didn't realize Synthetic had a thread.
> 
> I am learning a lot the past few days especially about myself. I am on the detaching section of the book. I can't believe what a mess I really am.
> 
> Thanks for the hope link....I appreciate all the help and support.


I have a pretty funny line in his thread too.

See if you can find it.


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I have a pretty funny line in his thread too.
> 
> See if you can find it.


i don't think she has that much extra time on her hands, heyoooooo


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

Matt1720 said:


> i don't think she has that much extra time on her hands, heyoooooo


 
LOL....I am on page 5. I want to keep reading but all the reading I've been doing is hurting my head and eyes. I think I will take a break for me now. I need to learn to do for me. I am amazed at what Syn has gone through. One thing that struck me is her anger with him posting on here. Once I found out about the negative things I was doing is when I finally started wanting to work on me. I've come a long way but now have to fix myself from the co-dependency. I am thankful for all the help I get on this board. It has probably saved my life many times.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

Conrad said:


> I have a pretty funny line in his thread too.
> 
> See if you can find it.


 
Now I'm anxious to find it.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

sadwithouthim said:


> I don't know how I got here to this point...maybe growing up with an alcoholic father embedded these characteristics in me over the years.


Sad, the most common explanation I've seen for our becoming "excessive caretakers" -- as you have already observed -- is having an alcoholic parent. The usual result, according to this theory, is that the other parent ends up relying too heavily on the child for the emotional support that is not forthcoming from the alcoholic parent. The best explanation of this process I've found is an article by therapist Shari Schreiber at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. Although that entire article is insightful, the last half is the best part.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Sad, the most common explanation I've seen for our becoming "excessive caretakers" -- as you have already observed -- is having an alcoholic parent. The usual result, according to this theory, is that the other parent ends up relying too heavily on the child for the emotional support that is not forthcoming from the alcoholic parent. The best explanation of this process I've found is an article by therapist Shari Schreiber at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. Although that entire article is insightful, the last half is the best part.


Uptown did you read my post above?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

synthetic said:


> Uptown did you read my post above?


Sorry about that, Synth. I re-visited this thread after page 2 had started and did not realize I missed your post toward the end of page 1. My last post, then, is simply agreeing with what you had already said in two earlier posts.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

So i am wondering guys....is it totally possible that i am continuing this co dependency behavior or at least the majority of it because that is what he (stbxh) brings out in me. Sort of his behaviors spark it in me? So if i met someone new there is a possibility that most of what i feel could just go away because the relationship is different and based on two people committed to a loving relationship that both people work hard to maintain?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

SWOH,

No.

When you are codependent, the more important a relationship is to you, the more traits of codependency you display.

That's because it's rooted in your sense of self worth.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

I questioned that too, how codependent was I before I met my wife and how much of it did I learn since I've been with her.

I don't know the answer, my guess is that I had it to some level, and became worse as the relationship went on.

Now that I'm out, I definitely see the traits I exhibit and lean towards when dating others.

As with any attempt to alter our mood or feelings, it takes a lot of work! Codependency is something we usually learn from childhood as a protective mechanism. It's not something you can just walk away from one day.

I can tell you this, if you don't seek help from it and acknowledge your issues and start working them out, you'll always find yourself in screwed up relationships.

I can also give you hope. As you can see there's a lot of us on here that have been "excessive caretakers" as Uptown would say. I can't speak for everyone, but after the initial sad stage (lasted about 2 months for me), I have been just EXCITED about life.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

I want to reflect more on my previous comment later as i have more questions but i have more urgent questions on how to handle things but want to move my codependency questions back to my tactic thread so i keep everything on there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

So I'm dragging this thread back up again as I am struggling to understand something. I'm just going to get to the point......How do you know the difference between wanting someone in your life and needing someone? I know it sounds like an easy question to answer but when I really think about it, how do I know that it is something I want or something I just feel I need (codependency)?


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

sadwithouthim said:


> So I'm dragging this thread back up again as I am struggling to understand something. I'm just going to get to the point......How do you know the difference between wanting someone in your life and needing someone? I know it sounds like an easy question to answer but when I really think about it, how do I know that it is something I want or something I just feel I need (codependency)?


It's a really tough question to answer and takes a lot of reflection. I've found CoDA was really helpful because talking about where you are at and hearing other people's stories is very enlightening.

Realistically it's something that you may never know the answer too. We have to fight to have balance in our lives.

I'm not saying I've overcome codependency or that I'm healed of it or anything like that, I try at every instance though to speak my emotions, especially if I notice that I am purposely trying to repress them. I feel like when I do that, even if I'm still off base, that I'm at least headed in the right direction.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

CoDa....is that that online website that Matt on here directed me to earlier?


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

If I take this step a bit further, then I have more questions.

I have always been able to make more guy friends than girl friends. I have been that way as far as I can remember. My best friend in high school was male. We were like brother and sister. It seems now that women at my age are either so busy with their families or have already established good friends at their age so really there is no time to be out there making new ones. 

Is this another trait of codependency? It drives me nuts I can't find a good girlfriend.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

sadwithouthim said:


> CoDa....is that that online website that Matt on here directed me to earlier?


coda.org is the website, it's codependency anonymous. It follows the same format as AA or NA, but for codependency. I think the motto is, "everyone is welcome that wants healthier relationships" or something on that line.

If you go to the website you can look up where the closest meeting group is. Pretty much every catholic church in my city has a group.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

sadwithouthim said:


> If I take this step a bit further, then I have more questions.
> 
> I have always been able to make more guy friends than girl friends. I have been that way as far as I can remember. My best friend in high school was male. We were like brother and sister. It seems now that women at my age are either so busy with their families or have already established good friends at their age so really there is no time to be out there making new ones.
> 
> Is this another trait of codependency? It drives me nuts I can't find a good girlfriend.


I don't know if that's a trait or not, but I'm kind of the same way. I think it's unhealthy, at least for me. Which is why I'm trying to invest more time in my guy friends that I let drop by the wayside.

I've come to know the importance of having close same-sex friendships.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

sadwithouthim said:


> If I take this step a bit further, then I have more questions.
> 
> I have always been able to make more guy friends than girl friends. I have been that way as far as I can remember. My best friend in high school was male. We were like brother and sister. It seems now that women at my age are either so busy with their families or have already established good friends at their age so really there is no time to be out there making new ones.
> 
> Is this another trait of codependency? It drives me nuts I can't find a good girlfriend.


Friendship is a form of attraction. Who you choose as friends has little to do with codependency, but everything to do with your parents.

Where your parents failed at meeting your demands is where your friends are 'supposed' to succeed.

How was your relationship with your father?


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

synthetic said:


> Friendship is a form of attraction. Who you choose as friends has little to do with codependency, but everything to do with your parents.
> 
> Where your parents failed at meeting your demands is where your friends are 'supposed' to succeed.
> 
> How was your relationship with your father?


Syn....i had absolutely no relationship with my father....he was an abusive alcoholic. Never once took us anywhere and ruined many holidays. Not once did he ever say he loved me. He could have cared less about anything i did or any accomplishments in my life. He died in 97 and that was worse to me than loosing my sister who was very close to me in 2001.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

sadwithouthim said:


> Syn....i had absolutely no relationship with my father....he was an abusive alcoholic. Never once took us anywhere and ruined many holidays. Not once did he ever say he loved me. He could have cared less about anything i did or any accomplishments in my life. He died in 97 and that was worse to me than loosing my sister who was very close to me in 2001.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is it a wonder you choose more male friends than females? 

You're very much prone to seeking father figures in your friends and your spouse. You need to be aware of this.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

sadwithouthim said:


> Syn....i had absolutely no relationship with my father....he was an abusive alcoholic. Never once took us anywhere and ruined many holidays. Not once did he ever say he loved me. He could have cared less about anything i did or any accomplishments in my life. He died in 97 and that was worse to me than loosing my sister who was very close to me in 2001.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And you wonder why it's taken you so long to recognize your husband's behavior as abusive?


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

I was put off at first reading i seek father figures but the more i think of it the more i think you are absolutely right. I do seek that caring (i will take care of u type characteristic). Dont get me wrong i also have that side of me that will go and figure out how to fix something and won't bat an eye when needed to jump in and get dirty but yes i do seek that i will hold you and get u through this type personality. Something that comes to mind is that i have always been attracted to the more nerdy type that are probably much less physically attractive than me for the emotional connection as i felt they would be more prone to care for me based on the fact that they are dating up. Does that sound terrible? I always felt emotional attraction was more of what id look for and physical would develop based on that emotional connection.

Conrad....your statement jumps out. One of the therapists i was seeing over a year ago when i told her things said how emotional abusive my stbxh was. I didn't see it. I mean i know he really hurt me a few times but i had never considered him emotionally abusive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Sad,

He's very abusive.

Sadly (no pun intended), since those that you looked to for love when you were young were so cold to you.... that's what you sought for yourself as an adult.

Subconsciously, you associate that coldness with acceptance and love. It's what you expect.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> Does that sound terrible?


It doesn't sound terrible. It sounds normal. It's who you are.

Be careful not to end up feeling like a victim because of your childhood damages. Everyone has them. It's important to be aware of them and avoid extremism. We all become extremists in our ways and that's when things go wrong. 

In other words, we become "too much" of who we are. It's vital to keep ourselves flexible and self-aware.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

synthetic said:


> It doesn't sound terrible. It sounds normal. It's who you are.
> 
> Be careful not to end up feeling like a victim because of your childhood damages. Everyone has them. It's important to be aware of them and avoid extremism. We all become extremists in our ways and that's when things go wrong.
> 
> In other words, we become "too much" of who we are. It's vital to keep ourselves flexible and self-aware.


 
I actually have not thought about it much in my adult life and really have not shared much of my childhood with anyone. Just something I learned to tuck away, probably out of embarrasment as a child. Not even shared much of it with my husband. I don't dwell on it but what I do dwell on is this whole mess my life has become. I'm not sure how I got from feeling independent to being a needy mess. 

After I read your statement Conrad "He's very abusive.
" I cried for some time. It's true...he was. I see it more clearly now. What I can't figure out is why do I feel like I still feel for him. I don't believe I love him at all anymore but theres a little part of me that still thinks about what if he just did come back. Why would I even think this? I feel sick thinking I disrespect myself that much.

Incidently Syn....my sister that passed away had a boyfriend from about the age of 16 until well in her 20's. He mentally and physically abused her and she hid it from the whole family for many many years. One time she was away at a camp with him (In her 20's.) and came home with her head split opened. She said she fell off a rope swing and hit her head. It wasn't until many years after he showed up at her work early in the morning and beat her up that employees witnessed it and got her to file a PFA against him. That is when all the stories of abuse starting coming out. She never fell off a rope swing, he threw an ax at her and hit her in the head. He could of killed her.

I never realized what a messed up family I came from until I started talking about all this in IC and on here.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm sorry SWH.

A big obstacle in our path to awareness is the loyalty and protectiveness we oblige ourselves to. We don't want to accept that our families were messed up, dysfunctional and detrimental to our growth. We don't want to think of our parents as ignorant, abusive and imperfect people. The moment we are born, they are all we know. They are our Gods. Our families become "too sacred" to be dissected and criticized. We go in denial.

Incidentally or perhaps unfortunately, most of us start to get involved in serious relationships and marriages at the very age that we shouldn't (late teens to mid 20s). That's the age that we are most stubborn in our illusion of loyalty to our families. That's the age we rarely accept our own faults. That's the age we idolize the wrong things because of our upbringings.

It's unfortunate that the 2 most important sources of wisdom and love (our family and the education system) badly fail us.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

I want to get back to your last post Syn...It's a good one but wanted to ask another question of you knowledgeable co-dependently free folks....So can co dependency only coexist in intimate relationship but not other relationships.

The reason I asked is it got me thinking about my work ethics (especially since I am in the market again). I have always exceled in the work place and have been well respected as a Human Resources Manager (funny a co-dependent person goes into that field). I am assertive and well liked. So why don't these co-dependent traits come out in that part of my life?


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## dazedguy (May 16, 2012)

You're not alone. I'm exactly the same - very assertive type a go getter at work but in relationships I try to do everything to keep everybody happy.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Most codependents and also people with abandonment fear are highly successful at hiding their insecurities in a work environment. The reason for that is the lack of a requirement for them to be empathetic and emotionally open at work.

In other words, as an HR manager, not only you're not obligated to give a crap about people's feelings and view of you, but you're actually encouraged to keep your emotions at bay. Your childhood is actually one of the biggest reasons you became a successful HR manager. 

The more fearful you are about showing weakness, the more likely you will end up in careers that involve helping others from a superior position (nursing, medicine, counseling, management, HR, EMS, social worker, teaching...etc)

Medical doctors and nurses are specially known to be good candidates for traumatic childhoods and abandonment fears.

At work, the image you depict of yourself is one of physical appearance and vocal assertiveness. This is enough to make you accepted as a part of the work dynamic. In an intimate relationship, you cannot make your partner settle just for that. You have to open up and show vulnerabilities. This triggers your biggest fears. This makes you defensive and highly prone to abusing and getting abused. 

Codpendency can definitely exist in non-intimate relationships. It is actually always present in any relationship. It's what makes us humans. Sometimes it reaches unhealthy levels (mostly in intimate relationships).

Your relationship with your parents, siblings, husband, close friends and perhaps a few other people always carry a significant level of codependency on both sides.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Synth, I really like your views on codependency (largely, I suspect, because we both are such fans of Schreiber). Moreover, you are so articulate in expressing your views. I would only add that, with the term "codependency," it is important to always define up front exactly what you mean about it. 

Because it is not considered a mental disorder, it is not defined in the diagnostic manual DSM-IV. Nor are there any plans to do so in the DSM-5 scheduled for release this May. As long as most religions in the world continue to regard "selflessness" as the key to heaven -- and most nations continue to rely on their young peoples' willingness to sacrifice themselves for national security, there is little chance of a definition forthcoming.

Likewise, if you go to the website of CoDA (largest association of "codependents" in the world), you will find much discussion but absolutely no definition. Instead, CoDA offers an absurd list of more than fifty "patterns and characteristics" -- more traits than the DSM-IV lists for all ten personality disorders COMBINED. For a good laugh, take a look at it at http://www.coda.org/tools4recovery/patterns-new.htm.

I say "absurd" list because the only "pattern" left out of that lengthy list is that on the wallpaper in your kitchen. Clearly, CoDA is essentially a political organization that, in order to appease the many thousands of separate member groups all over the world, has obediently included all views and suggestions. 

Absent a definition in the DSM, "codependency" is whatever you choose to say it is. My choice is to define it merely as "excessive caregiving," which largely tracks Schreiber's use of the term. What I find offensive are the many definitions that emphasize the need to control loved ones, often to the point of deliberately (or subconsciously) keeping them sick so the "codependent" continues to feel needed. 

I find that definition offensive because my experience with "codependents" -- including myself -- is that we make every effort to obtain professional help and guidance for our loved ones. In my case, I essentially "adopted" a young man whom I found wandering the streets after he had been discharged, for the tenth time, from a mental hospital in another State. Over the next 12 years, I managed to wean him away from the hospitals by giving him a home and family. I also gave him structure by requiring him to go to a therapy program five days a week. He has now been an important part of my family for 32 years. Similarly, I spent over $200,000 taking my BPDer exW to six different psychologists for weekly visits for 15 years.

My experience, then, is that other "codependents" are excessive caregivers like Synth and me. Typically, a divorced codependent will be found working a 40 hour job and going home at night to care for 3 kids and 5 dogs -- and still finding time, on the weekends, to go out looking for a mate to take care of too.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

The other thing is you get REWARDED at work for taking ownership of other's problems and solving them.




synthetic said:


> Most codependents and also people with abandonment fear are highly successful at hiding their insecurities in a work environment. The reason for that is the lack of a requirement for them to be empathetic and emotionally open at work.
> 
> In other words, as an HR manager, not only you're not obligated to give a crap about people's feelings and view of you, but you're actually encouraged to keep your emotions at bay. Your childhood is actually one of the biggest reasons you became a successful HR manager.
> 
> ...


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

Uptown said:


> My experience, then, is that other "codependents" are excessive caregivers like Synth and me. Typically, a divorced codependent will be found working a 40 hour job and going home at night to care for 3 kids and 5 dogs -- and still finding time, on the weekends, to go out looking for a mate to take care of too.


[email protected] so me-- except mine is 40+ hrs job, going home at night taking care of 1 kid, 2 dogs, 1 cat, + various coldblooded animals, and still finding time, on the weekends, to go out looking for a mate to take care of


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Uptown said:


> In my case, I essentially "adopted" a young man whom I found wandering the streets after he had been discharged, for the tenth time, from a mental hospital in another State. Over the next 12 years, I managed to wean him away from the hospitals by giving him a home and family. I also gave him structure by requiring him to go to a therapy program five days a week. He has now been an important part of my family for 32 years. Similarly, I spent over $200,000 taking my BPDer exW to six different psychologists for weekly visits for 15 years.


That's the rub. Draw the line between being a caring, decent individual who's helping society, and an "excessive" caregiver. Was Mother Theresa codependent? I'm sure I'll struggle with that for the rest of my life...



> My experience, then, is that other "codependents" are excessive caregivers like Synth and me. Typically, a divorced codependent will be found working a 40 hour job and going home at night to care for 3 kids and 5 dogs -- and still finding time, on the weekends, to go out looking for a mate to take care of too.


Sounds like me if I win my custody case...hope I can leave out the last 5 words.


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## dazedguy (May 16, 2012)

COguy said:


> That's the rub. Draw the line between being a caring, decent individual who's helping society, and an "excessive" caregiver. Was Mother Theresa codependent? I'm sure I'll struggle with that for the rest of my life...


Throw in getting left by a spouse you were trying to take care of on top of that and good luck drawing that line anywhere close to the middle ground. How do you not end up hyper-vigilant about protecting yourself from that pain by avoiding letting anyone know you?


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

Actually had my face stuck in the book Co-dependent No More to day before coming to TAM.

Define it for me and I will give you a cookie....lol. It is never going to be fully defined. There are so many things that are involved. 

I compare it to the like of an overeating disorder. Because like food is needed for the over eater so are people for the codependent. A tough thing to mend when you have to have people around.

@sad~ you should get The Forum (Alanon magazine). It is full of little stories that are easy to read quickly so everyday you can read and feel inspired to keep going forward. I have used them as a quick read when I need to be reminded that life is ok even if there are problems in my life and that I don't have to save so and so anymore!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I just had to jump in. I've been codependent at work (I was the ideal employee). I've also been codependent with people I didn't even like. I've also been codependent with everyone not just my husband.

Codependency is a state of being. It says i should put others needs and problems before my own. It's a distraction to keep from facing my own pain and/or problems. It's also how I was raised.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> I just had to jump in. I've been codependent at work (I was the ideal employee). I've also been codependent with people I didn't even like. I've also been codependent with everyone not just my husband.
> 
> Codependency is a state of being. It says i should put others needs and problems before my own. It's a distraction to keep from facing my own pain and/or problems. It's also how I was raised.


:iagree: well said!


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Uptown said:


> As long as most religions in the world continue to regard "selflessness" as the key to heaven -- and most nations continue to rely on their young peoples' willingness to sacrifice themselves for national security, there is little chance of a definition forthcoming.


Thank you! I grew up in a country where selflessness and sacrifice were the only way.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

synthetic said:


> Incidentally or perhaps unfortunately, most of us start to get involved in serious relationships and marriages at the very age that we shouldn't (late teens to mid 20s). That's the age that we are most stubborn in our illusion of loyalty to our families. That's the age we rarely accept our own faults. That's the age we idolize the wrong things because of our upbringings.


I'm a product of this....met my stbxh at 18 and were engaged very quickly and married a year after engagement. Let me just add, I think in my case, at least its what I think now, I believe that maybe it was a way for me to escape my home life. To take that step of being on my own but with the help of having someone still there (husband). 

You are such a smart guy Syn. I believe you are well over a decade younger than me, right? I have appreciate so much of your wisdom and suggestions in this area.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

synthetic said:


> In other words, as an HR manager, not only you're not obligated to give a crap about people's feelings and view of you, but you're actually encouraged to keep your emotions at bay. Your childhood is actually one of the biggest reasons you became a successful HR manager.


You are so right about that. In HR, everything is straight forward. It either is or it isn't. I can be direct because that is the policy. I can be fair because there are rules governing it. In HR you are taught not to let your feelings get in the way. You help but it doesn't consume you because it is not suppose to. 



synthetic said:


> At work, the image you depict of yourself is one of physical appearance and vocal assertiveness. This is enough to make you accepted as a part of the work dynamic. In an intimate relationship, you cannot make your partner settle just for that. You have to open up and show vulnerabilities. This triggers your biggest fears. This makes you defensive and highly prone to abusing and getting abused.


So true. He knew my weaknesses and preyed on them. The relationship pushed me into gear being the protector, the enabler, and even in some ways his mother (caring for him, doing everything, allowing him to go out and have fun, while I stayed home year after year).


It makes more sense to me why these traits seem present in my intimate relationship with STBXH and not so much at work. 

Synthectic, the more boundaries you create and the more you place yourself first, do these characters fade away making you stronger and less co-dependent?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> Synthectic, the more boundaries you create and the more you place yourself first, do these characters fade away making you stronger and less co-dependent?


Well they don't fade away. They are always all around you. They just start realizing where they belong. You get to choose where to place them. For years I placed my wife right on my ass where she did whatever she pleased. Right now I've decided to put her a few feet away with a big bubble around myself. Eventually she might convince me to let her in the bubble right beside me (never on my ass again)

SWH, the characters you refer to are not monsters. They're normal human beings. All of us have the potential to abuse others and get abused by them. All of us are guilty of hurting others. We enter this world inflicting pain on our mothers. We are born ego-centric (the world revolves around me and only me). We are selfish creatures in search of unselfishness. It's a mindf***.

The biggest advantage of setting boundaries and placing yourself first is an immediate jump in your attractiveness. Attractiveness brings 'options'. A human with options has hope for contentment. The more options people maintains for themselves, the less likely they will end up being codependent.

In a marriage, we choose to get rid of our sexual/romantic options by signing an exclusivity contract. We're signing up for codependency. Without self-awareness and boundaries (that have a definite consequence if they're crossed), it's hard to control the level of codependency. It gets out of hand and we become enmeshed in dysfunction. 

I don't think anyone can claim to be in a relationship that has a zero level of codependency. Even animals show a minimal level of codependency.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

synthetic said:


> Well they don't fade away. They are always all around you. They just start realizing where they belong. You get to choose where to place them. For years I placed my wife right on my ass where she did whatever she pleased. Right now I've decided to put her a few feet away with a big bubble around myself. Eventually she might convince me to let her in the bubble right beside me (never on my ass again)
> 
> SWH, the characters you refer to are not monsters. They're normal human beings. All of us have the potential to abuse others and get abused by them. All of us are guilty of hurting others. We enter this world inflicting pain on our mothers. We are born ego-centric (the world revolves around me and only me). We are selfish creatures in search of unselfishness. It's a mindf***.
> 
> ...


Very good information Syn. I have been working hard to start making decisions based on how I feel and not how someone else feels. My STBXH wanted me to take DS to his practice Saturday and drop him off later as it is his weekend to have him and I did for once stand my ground and said no. Not that I don't want to take my son to his practice but because that is suppose to be his time with him. A friend afterwards emailed me and asked me to lunch at this cute little tea house so I am so glad I left room for myself because I think the girl time is much needed. 

Ohhh....that paragraph on trading in our sexual/romantic options for a marital contract and signing up for co-dependency is so true. In my case, I have always felt that I can attach to someone and stay with them forever....makes sense why I put up with his emotional abuse for 22 years. I'm not one to go out and date several people to determine what I really like but rather fall quickly for the first person I meet. Which scares the hell out of me now. So my question is, how do you control this behavior? How do you stop the feelings of wanting to go and meet someone and attach to them so quickly that I never get to experience life on my own like I should be doing for awhile? How do you control those urges to want to date again but knowing damn well its not in your best interest at the time?


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

Syn...Conrad,

Why would it not be good for two co-dependent people to be together?

I have a hard time with some of the traits with a co-dependent because some of them seem to be good traits too. Maybe when overly exhibited they become unhealthy? I just would rather be overly caring and giving than not giving at all. I guess maybe those ungiving people have other issues of their own?

Still working on my co-dependent issues but this is really hard to understand and overcome. I guess it is the whole boundry thing I still struggle with.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Sad,

Because needy people are unattractive people.

Codependence is a manifestation of neediness.

It won't last because the mutual attraction will fade and devolve into endless power struggles as each tries to control the outcome of the other's actions.


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## dazedguy (May 16, 2012)

And I don't think the point is to become uncaring and selfish, just don't become so consumed with caring for and carrying the other person that that becomes your identity / purpose. Don't sacrifice yourself, your needs, your voice for someone else.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

Man Conrad....this just gets more and more complicated as I never saw myself as needy. I guess my biggest issues were doing everything for him and my son too, to the point I gave no time to myself. I was exhausted constantly. I'm not seeing the neediness in me. I never asked for much from him but yet when I read through the Co-dependency book, I can still pick out many characteristics of myself in it.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

DG....this is exactly what I think I am struggling with....those boundaries for myself. 

So when you've totally lost yourself in years of this and I mean years....22 with stbxh and then all the years prior to that with my family....how do you actually find yourself again? I know this probably sounds silly but I am so lost I don't even really know what I like or what really makes me happy.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

sadwithouthim said:


> Man Conrad....this just gets more and more complicated as I never saw myself as needy. I guess my biggest issues were doing everything for him and my son too, to the point I gave no time to myself. I was exhausted constantly. I'm not seeing the neediness in me. I never asked for much from him but yet when I read through the Co-dependency book, I can still pick out many characteristics of myself in it.


Do people appreciate things that are given to them - with no effort on their part?


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Do people appreciate things that are given to them - with no effort on their part?


 
The answer is typically no we don't appreciate things with out any effort. I see how I enabled him with this.

But I'm not understanding how that makes me needy? My constant need to do for him without him earning it?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

sadwithouthim said:


> The answer is typically no we don't appreciate things with out any effort. I see how I enabled him with this.
> 
> But I'm not understanding how that makes me needy? My constant need to do for him without him earning it?


The constant ignoring of yourself and what you want brings disrespect from the other side.

You ignoring you helps get him to think it's ok for him to do it.

This all occurs in the subconscious.

People then act out and you had no idea it was coming.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

Conrad said:


> The constant ignoring of yourself and what you want brings disrespect from the other side.
> 
> You ignoring you helps get him to think it's ok for him to do it.
> 
> ...


 
Ok...that makes sense. I can see how he disrespected me many times and automatically expected things from me and if I didn't do something he would react back. I can even see that more now when I don't back down with him now and then he starts to get defensive and accusatory. 

I'm going to think about this more. I appreciate your knowledge.

Sorry to be a pain with these questions....just really want to understand this and fix me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

sadwithouthim said:


> Ok...that makes sense. I can see how he disrespected me many times and automatically expected things from me and if I didn't do something he would react back. I can even see that more now when I don't back down with him now and then he starts to get defensive and accusatory.
> 
> I'm going to think about this more. I appreciate your knowledge.
> 
> Sorry to be a pain with these questions....just really want to understand this and fix me.


No need to apologize.

Always my pleasure.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I just would rather be overly caring and giving than not giving at all.


Alarms going off! Read that sentence again and notice how you're only considering 2 outcomes? Where is the 3rd and right outcome? *To be acceptably kind and giving?*



> But I'm not understanding how that makes me needy?


Let me help you understand it with a harsh example:

Suppose he comes to you and says _*"I think you've been a horrible wife. A selfish one. You never cared about me. You did nothing for me"*_

What do you think your instant reaction is? That's right: you get emotional and try to convince him that he's wrong (using your vocabulary of choice). 

That's how bad you need his (and others') validation. You are needy.

Do you really think you need to explain yourself when faced with such a scenario? If you do, you're codependent. If you don't, you're healing.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

I'm trying to still understand that first statement fully and the example is accurate of my feelings but let me rephrase to see if I am interpreting it correctly.

So what you are saying is when I can be kind and caring no matter how it is received by another (meaning really my stbxh), and I can accept what ever the outcome is; weather he is nice back, mean, degrading, etc. then I am able to still be nice but not co-dependent because how they react will not cause a reaction out of me?

In all honesty I try not to say anything back to him even when it bugs me because he is so arrogant and prideful there is no way winning a conversation over with him anyway. So I shut my mouth and harbor it inside...which if what you are saying is still co dependency because I am letting it control me?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I think it's impossible to truly give in a healthy manner until you can learn to give to yourself first. How can you give from an empty place?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> So I shut my mouth and harbor it inside.


What do you think it is that you're harboring? It has a name.


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

After reading all of that I am even more confused.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

synthetic said:


> What do you think it is that you're harboring? It has a name.


 
I suppose ill feeling towards him. Maybe anger and resentment towards him because of his stubborness. Not necessarily that he is wrong but that he won't even talk about how he could be wrong. Maybe I should not care about what he thinks or feels but rather what I think, feel and want?


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

NoWhere said:


> After reading all of that I am even more confused.


 
Read the Co Dependency No More book. Maybe it will help you to understand. The questions I pose are for help from experienced individuals that may help me to understand what I am going through personaly. I am trying to understand how these behaviors manafest in myself. Yours may be totally different than mine and you may not understand what I am asking because you don't have the same characteristic. 

Just my thought...not sure how accurate...but hope that helps...That is an excellent book and recommended by Synthetic and Conrad.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

sadwithouthim said:


> Man Conrad....this just gets more and more complicated as I never saw myself as needy. I guess my biggest issues were doing everything for him and my son too, to the point I gave no time to myself. I was exhausted constantly. I'm not seeing the neediness in me. I never asked for much from him but yet when I read through the Co-dependency book, I can still pick out many characteristics of myself in it.


Being caring and giving is a good personality trait. When you are so caring and giving that you lose yourself your codependent. You have to learn to care about someone and you can do things for them, but it can't be at the expense of your own self worth. 

Think of a good friend you have. You care for them and will do things for them but if it started to weigh on your own self worth you would more then likely terminate the friendship. This is because we normally aren't codependent in cases like this. All relationships should be this way. When a relationship starts to destroy who we are, then it's time to detach.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

Second sentence explains it well. Thank you. Now I just need to learn how to follow the third sentence. I am getting better at some things but definitely would see my self following into this same pattern with a new person. URGH....makes me angry as I am aware I would do it. How does one really learn not to?

Definitely another example why even after 2 years apart, I am not ready for any new relationships.


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## trying to move on!! (Oct 14, 2012)

Hello Sad,
I am going through the same exact co-dependency issues. The progressive list fits me to a T also. I like the advice given to you about no contact for 2-3 wks. I am also going to take that advice as I now see where my problem exists. Yep! Still co-dependent.


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