# Husband on steroids



## Na Na

My husband has been on steroids for about a year. He is impossible to get along with towards the end of a cycle. Everything I say turns into a big ordeal to the point he says he is considering leaving. I know this is the steroids talking because prior to the steroids and between cycles we never fight. I have told him how irrational he is and how much I despise the stuff but he refuses to see the affects it has on his personality. How do I get him to realize what he is doing to our relationship?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

Hi. Are you certain that you are not just sensitive because of the steroids? And what is he running? Some seem to aggravate temper worse than others - but on that note I will say that steroids don't cause someone to be aggressive, only heighten what I they are already feeling, so to speak. 

My husband has been using them for many years and I have never noticed a change in his attitude - only in his sex drive! 

I only ask this because we have one (non steroid related) subject that keeps us fighting, and sometimes I am so sensitive to it that he THINKS I'm gonna pick about it - and he's defensive even before he needs to be sometimes.

I have noticed when he is running his PCT between cycles he is more emotional, but that is to be expected considering the sudden drop in Testosterone, I suppose.


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## Na Na

I am not really sure what he is running. I think it's been a little different every time. Our fights generally revolve around sex. He wants it all the time but my drive is not ever going to match his while he's juicing up. I work 50 hours a week and we have a 4 year old. Sometimes I'm just tired and you would think I had cut him off completely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustr8dhubby

Are you both talking about REAL steroids? Never heard of "roid rage" or the long term affects on brain chemistry or male performance?


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## Cherie

Na Na said:


> I am not really sure what he is running. I think it's been a little different every time. Our fights generally revolve around sex. He wants it all the time but my drive is not ever going to match his while he's juicing up. I work 50 hours a week and we have a 4 year old. Sometimes I'm just tired and you would think I had cut him off completely.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, sex drive certainly doesn't. I find this to be one of the benefits. I have a very high sex drive. How old are you? When I get home, I will find some links To post in here. There are some natural things you can take to help improve your libido and it will help you significantly. You may be surprised how much you actually want It.






frustr8dhubby said:


> Are you both talking about REAL steroids? Never heard of "roid rage" or the long term affects on brain chemistry or male performance?


Yes, real steroids. There are risks, and my husband is aware of them and has done his research. Also a lot of myths out there They continue to be spread by people who do not know any better. If you do a preferable psychotherapy you do not have to be effected in the long run as far as sexual performance


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## Cherie

Oops, I meant post cycle therapy...damn autocorrect. :thumbdown:


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## Hope1964

frustr8dhubby said:


> Are you both talking about REAL steroids? Never heard of "roid rage" or the long term affects on brain chemistry or male performance?


:iagree: Why do guys do this to themselves??


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## Middle of Everything

Cherie said:


> Yes, sex drive certainly doesn't. I find this to be one of the benefits. I have a very high sex drive. How old are you? When I get home, I will find some links To post in here. There are some natural things you can take to help improve your libido and it will help you significantly. You may be surprised how much you actually want It.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, real steroids. There are risks, and my husband is aware of them and has done his research. Also a lot of myths out there They continue to be spread by people who do not know any better. If you do a preferable psychotherapy you do not have to be effected in the long run as far as sexual performance


2nd time I've had to use this


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## Na Na

I'm 32. He just gets so angry with me over nothing and brings up old fights. I'll admit there was a period right after I had our son that I was not concerned with anything to do with sex. He had reflux and cried all the time. I was stressed and sleep deprived to the max but since he pointed out that I completely neglected "us" I had tried to make more of an effort to strengthen our marriage. I was so concerned with being a good mother that I did take him for granted. So now, even if we have been perfect for months, he gets mad and says I'm never going to be the "old" me. It's just odd that the only time we have this argument is during one of his cycles. Just seems like if it were really a problem then he would bring it up during other times. For heaven's sake, I just had boudior pics done for him and three days later he is mad at me again over something I said as a joke. Just can't seem to win.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

Middle of Everything said:


> 2nd time I've had to use this


You guys have no clue bc you are on the outside. I've dated more temperamental a$$holes
That weren't using than my husband even when he is using. 






Na Na said:


> I'm 32. He just gets so angry with me over nothing and brings up old fights. I'll admit there was a period right after I had our son that I was not concerned with anything to do with sex. He had reflux and cried all the time. I was stressed and sleep deprived to the max but since he pointed out that I completely neglected "us" I had tried to make more of an effort to strengthen our marriage. I was so concerned with being a good mother that I did take him for granted. So now, even if we have been perfect for months, he gets mad and says I'm never going to be the "old" me. It's just odd that the only time we have this argument is during one of his cycles. Just seems like if it were really a problem then he would bring it up during other times. For heaven's sake, I just had boudior pics done for him and three days later he is mad at me again over something I said as a joke. Just can't seem to win.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry you have to go thought this. I have been though similar things regarding bringing old stuff up. He sounds like he has some insecurities or worries about being neglected again so he is being super quick to fight about it. 

Have you pointed this out to him (the timing with the end of his cycle)
And if so, what does he say? Maybe you can point out to him that its not fair, and you don't have an aid to help u with libido like he does.


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## Entropy3000

Hope1964 said:


> :iagree: Why do guys do this to themselves??


They are looking for a cheat. If you take steroids you can go on an extreme workout schedule and recover much faster than naturally attainable without steroids.

Gains can come over the long haul without steroids but it is a lot more work and you have to be very careful not to over train. The gains come quicker with steroids. So some guys juice.

Why do some women go to extremes to lose weight or have breast implants or other plastic surgery? I think for similar reasons.

Guys look at some of this from a performance perspective as well as an image thing.

This is not the first steroid thread in the past couple of weeks. ( hint hint )


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## chillymorn

he a drug abuser! he is destroying his body !

steroides are bad for you no matter what anybody says. because there is so much testosterone in his blood his testies quit making it on their own and after awhile it won't start back up and he will be left having to take them forever.

crazy.

do you want to be married to a drug abuser? and someone who has roid rage!

yuck 


so sad that some people have such low selfesteem that they would possibly hurt their body in the long run for such short term FAKE gains.


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## Na Na

chillymorn said:


> he a drug abuser! he is destroying his body !
> 
> steroides are bad for you no matter what anybody says. because there is so much testosterone in his blood his testies quit making it on their own and after awhile it won't start back up and he will be left having to take them forever.
> 
> crazy.
> 
> do you want to be married to a drug abuser? and someone who has roid rage!
> 
> yuck
> 
> 
> so sad that some people have such low selfesteem that they would possibly hurt their body in the long run for such short term FAKE gains.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Na Na

I never said I was okay with him using the steroids. That's a whole separate argument but not one I can have while he's actually doing a cycle. Can't stop just cold turkey anyway without causing more problems. He has told me this is the last one so we'll see. Just trying to make it through the irritable behavior until I have my old husband back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Minncouple

Well, I have been using steroids for over 21 years so i feel i have a bit more experience in commenting than most do. Amazed at the complete ignorance by posters on here about them. All I have learned has been through trial and error, along with numerous doctors at top level atheletic clinics.

Here's the facts:

1) Steroids will not kill you, over use of them will. 
2) No one who competes naturally can ever gain the amount of muscle as one who is "on"
3) ROid rage is very over rated. If your a **** not on steroids, you will be a larger **** when on. 
4) It does cause major stresses in relationships if one side of the couple is not into fitness.
5) Most users are completey clue-less about what to use and how to use it. Thus, screw up their systems. Most simply find thier information on the internet body building forums which are typically not the most truthful sites. 
6) Most users use way to much mg's, and simply either hurt thier natural systems, or waste money on fake couterfit steroids. I use a bare minimum, and gain more muscle each year than those using tons of drugs. Lack of proper training and nutrition, can not be made up by boat loads of drugs.
7) The majority of users, will never compete and thus risk thier health for nothing. Any guy using more that 400mg's of test and a few IU's of growth is simply ignorate on training/diet/ and general bodybuilding.

Good luck with your situation.


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## Cherie

Minncouple said:


> Well, I have been using steroids for over 21 years so i feel i have a bit more experience in commenting than most do. Amazed at the complete ignorance by posters on here about them. All I have learned has been through trial and error, along with numerous doctors at top level atheletic clinics.
> 
> Here's the facts:
> 
> 1) Steroids will not kill you, over use of them will.
> 2) No one who competes naturally can ever gain the amount of muscle as one who is "on"
> 3) ROid rage is very over rated. If your a **** not on steroids, you will be a larger **** when on.
> 4) It does cause major stresses in relationships if one side of the couple is not into fitness.
> 5) Most users are completey clue-less about what to use and how to use it. Thus, screw up their systems. Most simply find thier information on the internet body building forums which are typically not the most truthful sites.
> 6) Most users use way to much mg's, and simply either hurt thier natural systems, or waste money on fake couterfit steroids. I use a bare minimum, and gain more muscle each year than those using tons of drugs. Lack of proper training and nutrition, can not be made up by boat loads of drugs.
> 7) The majority of users, will never compete and thus risk thier health for nothing. Any guy using more that 400mg's of test and a few IU's of growth is simply ignorate on training/diet/ and general bodybuilding.
> 
> Good luck with your situation.


Thank you! So much misinformation spread by people on the outside. 
Are some idiots and *******s who use? Sure. But they were that before they used as well. If you do your homework and aren't abusing them they can be fine. 

not getting into whether it not it is a cheat or a quick fix but I will say, you do not simply take steroids and sit on the couch and get huge. You still have to bust your ass in the gym and train properly for them to do anything worthwhile.


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## chillymorn

Minncouple said:


> Well, I have been using steroids for over 21 years so i feel i have a bit more experience in commenting than most do. Amazed at the complete ignorance by posters on here about them. All I have learned has been through trial and error, along with numerous doctors at top level atheletic clinics.
> 
> Here's the facts:
> 
> 1) Steroids will not kill you, over use of them will.
> 2) No one who competes naturally can ever gain the amount of muscle as one who is "on"
> 3) ROid rage is very over rated. If your a **** not on steroids, you will be a larger **** when on.
> 4) It does cause major stresses in relationships if one side of the couple is not into fitness.
> 5) Most users are completey clue-less about what to use and how to use it. Thus, screw up their systems. Most simply find thier information on the internet body building forums which are typically not the most truthful sites.
> 6) Most users use way to much mg's, and simply either hurt thier natural systems, or waste money on fake couterfit steroids. I use a bare minimum, and gain more muscle each year than those using tons of drugs. Lack of proper training and nutrition, can not be made up by boat loads of drugs.
> 7) The majority of users, will never compete and thus risk thier health for nothing. Any guy using more that 400mg's of test and a few IU's of growth is simply ignorate on training/diet/ and general bodybuilding.
> 
> Good luck with your situation.


I kinda equate it to smoking.

some can smoke and live to 90 with no problems and some die from cancer/heart disease.

just because you used for over 20 yrs dosn't mean that some one else could with out any problems.

and as you said yourself most don't know what their doing.

the vast majority of medical doctors would advise against using them .


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## Entropy3000

Cherie said:


> Thank you! So much misinformation spread by *people on the outside.*
> Are some idiots and *******s who use? Sure. But they were that before they used as well. If you do your homework and aren't abusing them they can be fine.
> 
> not getting into whether it not it is a cheat or a quick fix but I will say, you do not simply take steroids and sit on the couch and get huge. You still have to bust your ass in the gym and train properly for them to do anything worthwhile.


As I said previously. Steroids allow for certain training programs that one without the aid of steroids would not be able to recover properly from and therefore not go through a positive adaptation. Call them what you will they are a performance enhancer when combined with the other elements of strength building. 

What does your hubby do? Is this bodybuilding, powerlifting, olympic lifting, strongman or other athletic pursuit?

The overwhelming number of users of steroids are totally clueless and as has been stated the information out there for the average guy is mostly bogus. Maybe your hubby is an exception.

Is this recreational / personal or does he compete in anything?

I will not even address whether or not they are "legal" in his federation / sport.

That said, the reason this was put on TAM for the OP had to do with handling her hubby's mood swings due to his use of steroids.


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## Minncouple

Chilly - Doctors are amoung the most ignorate on this subject. Simply because they are a doctor doesnt mean the know what they are talking about. I have been around top level atheletes for most of my adult life (football, cyclists, basketball, professional bodybuilder and strongman). These are the guys that have the knowledge, unfortunatley it was gained through trial and error. When i first got into the game i was about 19, these guys were all in thier 30's/40's. Now, they are in there 50's and we are seeing what the real effects are of these drugs. Also, the drugs have come along way since Arnolds days. Back then it was some test, deca, and some anadrol. Now, its 3000mg of test, 2000mg's deca, 800mg's masteron, 1000mg's or trenbolone, and top it off with 16-20 iu's a day of test. These are real cycles top level atheletes use. These are the guys that are now in thier 30's that may have a career in bodybuilding of 3-5 years, and if they dont clean up, wont see thier 40's. Long story short, doctors dont know anything, its the atheletes taking these drugs for decades and how they age. Thats were the real truthful information comes from.

I see so many guys in the gym using heavy amounts and have no desire to compete or show. I dont see the risk/reward being worth it. They use more drugs to overcome poor genetics and improper diet. Again, it aint the use, its the abuse. Yes, some guys take well to it, and some cant handle it. Everyone handles it differently. The worst cases are the guys that already have the tough guy attitude, its just magnifies that attitude and ruins thier relationships. Trust me on that one.

I woudl advise your husband that if he wants to use the drugs, go see a Testosterone replacement clinic. They will run blood test's every 6 months and monitor your health. They will also be selling you US grade drugs, not some junk made in a garage that is underdosed or dirty. The costs are about the same and that way it is legal and at least there is some efforts to make sure he stays healthy and alive.

Sorry for the rants, I am pretty into this stuff


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## Cherie

He competes on the national level in bb, and has been using for 15 years. He does the bare minimum, and thinks most the athletes and bb abuse them also. He doesn't mess with insulin, T3, etc...mostly just test, IGF-1 and a little Winny here and there.


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## Minncouple

Interesting.

Well if thats all he is using he must have some really good genetics to be competitive at a national level. I know quite a few guys that comeplet at nationals and the USA's each year and most are on almost a pro-level cycle.

The IGF-1 (Growth) and the Winstrol will not cause anger or elevate moods. Growth actually has the opposite effect. he shoudlbe using more that say 600 mg's a week or so of test. When on growth, test can be lowered as it has a very synergistic effect those two drugs. Also, running over 600mgs a week would simply bloat him up with water. He should check his blood work, see the 'free" and "natural" levels of test. the body can only use up so uch test, the rest is wasted in the body. 

Not to be harsh, but sounds like you hubby is just an angry type guy and it is what it is. The drugs (at that level you say) should be that big of a difference. Cutting them out wont turn him into a cuddly teddy bear type guy. It just isnt a high enough level or the drugs that cause the aggression.


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## Entropy3000

Cherie said:


> He competes on the national level in bb, and has been using for 15 years. He does the bare minimum, and thinks most the athletes and bb abuse them also. He doesn't mess with insulin, T3, etc...mostly just test, IGF-1 and a little Winny here and there.


So this would explain the use of steroids for his competition. Also why you use the phrase "people on the outside".

BTW Cherie is not the OP who posted about attitude.


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## Cherie

Minncouple said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Well if thats all he is using he must have some really good genetics to be competitive at a national level. I know quite a few guys that comeplet at nationals and the USA's each year and most are on almost a pro-level cycle.
> 
> The IGF-1 (Growth) and the Winstrol will not cause anger or elevate moods. Growth actually has the opposite effect. he shoudlbe using more that say 600 mg's a week or so of test. When on growth, test can be lowered as it has a very synergistic effect those two drugs. Also, running over 600mgs a week would simply bloat him up with water. He should check his blood work, see the 'free" and "natural" levels of test. the body can only use up so uch test, the rest is wasted in the body.
> 
> Not to be harsh, but sounds like you hubby is just an angry type guy and it is what it is. The drugs (at that level you say) should be that big of a difference. Cutting them out wont turn him into a cuddly teddy bear type guy. It just isnt a high enough level or the drugs that cause the aggression.


Is the last paragraph directed at me or the OP?

My hubby has a Rx from a doc who was a bodybuilder and specializes in HRT now. He's been a godsend as most docs are uneducated in these matters. He gets his levels checked regularly, too. 

As far as his dosing goes, I see no reason to discuss, and tbh I don't know details. He doesn't run so much test he gets the puffy face. and no, you do not have to run insulin to be competitive. That sh** is dangerous and not worth a hobby. Too many of these guys want too much too soon. 
That said, he has done tren and masteron heading into a show. I like the masteron for hardness, I love the look when he is on.

We know many guys doing every national show. His cycles are in line with some, but less than most.


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## Cherie

Entropy3000 said:


> So this would explain the use of steroids for his competition. Also why you use the phrase "people on the outside".
> 
> BTW Cherie is not the OP who posted about attitude.


Correct. I felt like he was getting me confused with OP


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## Entropy3000

Cherie said:


> Correct. I felt like he was getting me confused with OP


Pretty sure he did.


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## Middle of Everything

Minncouple said:


> Chilly - Doctors are amoung the most ignorate on this subject. Simply because they are a doctor doesnt mean the know what they are talking about. I have been around top level atheletes for most of my adult life (football, cyclists, basketball, professional bodybuilder and strongman). These are the guys that have the knowledge,


Doctors are dumb. Football players and other athletes are smart. Got it.:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

The interwebs can be so funny.


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## Minncouple

I am speaking to the OP. 

I am also a very silent but strong type guy. Never really look like I am bubbling over with excitement or happiness and some folks see that as anger. Not the case. So, some guys if they have that personality, need to be aware of that when "on". I am a pretty intimidating guy presense wise (6'3", 285). When speaking with folks and people, I really need to win them over a bit and not let them simply see me as a BB knuckle head.

I was refering that in my last paragraph. If the OP's husband is that type of guy, the use of anabolics isnt really to blame. So if the wife is thinking the drugs are causing all of this, it more than likley wont change when he is off.

Where most guys go astray with the drugs is listening to uneducated docs and or using gray market product. I know that 500mg's of Mexican test, equates to about 250 mg's US grade. In addition it was cooked up in a back yard. HRT clinics are the best source, and also keep blood work in line. I see so manyh guys and gals going to crazy extreme's and 99% will never step on stage and if they did dont have what it takes to win. I just dont get the risk/reward of it all.


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## Minncouple

Middle - I think your miss-understanding my point.

Take advice from a doctor who went to med school 30 years ago and has no further education on performance enhancing drugs....

or......

Speak with the atheletes who have literally been the lab rats for these drugs?

Most current research is based on atheletes who have used over long peroids of time. Look at what is happening in football right now with brain injuries.


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## Middle of Everything

Minncouple said:


> Middle - I think your miss-understanding my point.
> 
> Take advice from a doctor who went to med school 30 years ago and has no further education on performance enhancing drugs....
> 
> or......
> 
> Speak with the atheletes who have literally been the lab rats for these drugs?
> 
> Most current research is based on atheletes who have used over long peroids of time. Look at what is happening in football right now with brain injuries.


Agreed. 

But doctors use the scientific method for studying these things.

Athletes may think or feel a certain way about steroids and are biased. 

Thats all I am saying.


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## Machiavelli

Minncouple said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Well if thats all he is using he must have some really good genetics to be competitive at a national level.


Must be competing in "natural".


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## sinnister

I played football and have seen and known loads of guys on the juice.

Just...not...worth it.

Even for gains I found I would out gain most of them in the weight room just through modified diet. And I didnt get the side effect of mutliple acne outbreaks, roid rage and testicular shrinkage. (contrary to popular belief the shaft doesn't shrink, the balls do though).

I also find that you look less cut as you're primary concern is building size. So you get a bulkier look but less definition. Me don't like.


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## johnnycomelately

You have to worry about the self-esteem issues that somebody has to have to risk their health, spend lots of cash and waste enormous amounts of time in the gym in order to attain a physique that most normal women seem to be turned off by.

I think that if you are a mature, confident father and husband you wouldn't do this to yourself.


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## Cherie

1. Enormous amounts of time in the gym is a sterotype. Many guys that use gear spend less time in the gym than guys and girls who don't.
2. "Wads of cash" is relative. These guys are the same guys that aren't often spending money on beer and pizza.
3. You're in no place to assume that all men who use gear have low self esteem. What a crock. They can be some of the most confident men I know. 
4. How do you know the OP isn't attracted to the look? I'd take a musclebound guy with abs over the average fat american with ***** tits, or a runner who has bony hips anyday.


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## johnnycomelately

Cherie said:


> 1. Enormous amounts of time in the gym is a sterotype. Many guys that use gear spend less time in the gym than guys and girls who don't.
> 2. "Wads of cash" is relative. These guys are the same guys that aren't often spending money on beer and pizza.
> 3. You're in no place to assume that all men who use gear have low self esteem. What a crock. They can be some of the most confident men I know.
> 4. How do you know the OP isn't attracted to the look? I'd take a musclebound guy with abs over the average fat american with ***** tits, or a runner who has bony hips anyday.


Just seems like over-compensation to me. How can you justify spending this much time and resources on your image when you have a wife and kids? To say nothing of the health risks.


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## Cherie

johnnycomelately said:


> Just seems like over-compensation to me. How can you justify spending this much time and resources on your image when you have a wife and kids? To say nothing of the health risks.


I do see your point some what, That I would like to say that not all people that use are the same. They should not be all classified as the same either. A lot of people spend money on things like driving a nice car, or arrange vacations. Image is image no matter what kind of image you're concerned with. When a guy spends a couple hundred dollars a month on steroids, he's thrown under the bus yet when somebody buys a brand-new BMW, the neighbors walk over to take a look at it and chat.

Health risks, well, I will give you that. However, you're far more likely to die from smoking cigarettes or obesity, or even a drunk driving accident then you are from steroids. Just trying to put things in perspective.


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## Minncouple

Have to agree with Cheri on this one.

Your assumption on who uses and what not are pretty general and more than likely false.

1) Costs are only a few hundred a month, I know guys that drop that in a bar tap on a Thursday night.

2) While I did first start working out for the ladies, it evolved into much more of a personal goal type thing. It is also a way I deal with stress. 

3) One does not get fat when on, if so thier diet sucks.

4) I am attracted to very fit women, thus they are also looking for fit guys. I couldnt imagine being with a fluffy women. 

5) Health risks are there, but when used properly are way less of a health risk that fast food, smoking, and drinking. 

Now my final comment is quite vain, but it is quite nice hanging out at the Tao pool in Vegas with my shirt off, and at age 42, look better than all the 20 yo's. Also funny how most the guys ask questions about diet and training, while the ladies try not to stare. Sorry, just being honest.


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## Cherie

I feel the exact same. Could never be with a guy who wasn't concerned with his physical appearance and was a fat slob. I myself am liberties model, and hubby and I get questioned and stared at when we go places as well. 

Ditto on the bar tab thing. I see it all the time.


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## johnnycomelately

Minncouple said:


> Now my final comment is quite vain, but it is quite nice hanging out at the Tao pool in Vegas with my shirt off, and at age 42, look better than all the 20 yo's. Also funny how most the guys ask questions about diet and training, while the ladies try not to stare. Sorry, just being honest.


I think it is quite sad that at 42 you care so much.


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## Cherie

johnnycomelately said:


> I think it is quite sad that at 42 you care so much.


I think its sad you don't. Why because you age must you stop caring? Are you ok with having a spouse who has let herself go? if so, why? everyone has an ideal. I think an obese executive who has put money before his own fitness and physical health or a mom on food stamps who smokes is worse.


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## Minncouple

Well Johny, lets just agree to diss-agree.

I do care alot about my appearence, I dont see it as vain, its more of a personal respect I have for myself I guess.

I am always amazed at how society has become so understanding of obesity, and almost accepted and embrace it.


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## johnnycomelately

Cherie said:


> I think its sad you don't. Why because you age must you stop caring?


I do care. I take care of myself and stay fit. Bodybuilding with steroid use is not about health. Excess weight, whether it is muscle or fat, is bad for your heart and the effects of steroids are well documented. It is about image.


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## Cherie

johnnycomelately said:


> I do care. I take care of myself and stay fit. Bodybuilding with steroid use is not about health. Excess weight, whether it is muscle or fat, is bad for your heart and the effects of steroids are well documented. It is about image.


Good. Then you are one of the 34%	of Americans that is not overweight. We all agree abuse of the drugs is an issue and it's common. Bodybuilding is not about health, I will give you that. I never said it wasn't about image, too. Back to the car example. So unless you're living like a pauper, you care about image also. We can agree to.disagree.


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## chillymorn

do you think steroids has any thing to do with mental illness lot of pro football player on steroids and getting concussions seems to equal killing themselves or major mental health issues after they retire.

I"ll bet they find out in the future that its harmfull to your brain take steriods.


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## Minncouple

Chilly - Steroids aren't killing football players. It's the constant brain trama.

Look, we all can agree steroids when miss-used can kill you. But, regulated and safe use can also be benificial to your health.

As far as the football players, well steroids are thier least concerns. Most over users of steroids, in professional sports, are also users of recreational drugs. It's a fast lifstyle that takes its toll. NO, Chris Benoet (sp) the wrestler who commited suicide didnt kill himself due to steroids alone, he was on a boat load of other drugs. It's just that the media and goverment are on a witch hunt for gossip to sell/pitch to the general public.


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## Minncouple

BTW, can some one tell me why it is wrong to care about your physical appearence? Really, I am at a loss on this one.


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## chillymorn

Minncouple said:


> Chilly - Steroids aren't killing football players. It's the constant brain trama.
> 
> Look, we all can agree steroids when miss-used can kill you. But, regulated and safe use can also be benificial to your health.
> 
> As far as the football players, well steroids are thier least concerns. Most over users of steroids, in professional sports, are also users of recreational drugs. It's a fast lifstyle that takes its toll. NO, Chris Benoet (sp) the wrestler who commited suicide didnt kill himself due to steroids alone, he was on a boat load of other drugs. It's just that the media and goverment are on a witch hunt for gossip to sell/pitch to the general public.


I"m thinking the truth lies in the middle.

yes concussions over and over even mini consussions over and over are bad for your brain. Couple that with steroids use and its amplified.

steroid use without any type of concussions is yet to be known what the LONG term effects will have on your brain.

and there is absoulty nothing wrong with caring how you look.....as long as you don't put your long term health at risk.


I don't want social sercurity paying for your steroids or the health coverage to help because of some peoples abuse of it.


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## johnnycomelately

Minncouple said:


> BTW, can some one tell me why it is wrong to care about your physical appearence? Really, I am at a loss on this one.


No-one thinks it's wrong to care about your physical appearance, but anything to excess is a bad idea and a sign of some underlying issue. 

If my wife spent hours and hours and hundreds of dollars (or euros in my case) on potentially harmful beauty treatments I would be concerned and assume that she had some sort of self-esteem problem.

Why take risks with your mental and physical health to look abnormal (most women I know don't find bodybuilders attractive)? 

If it were my brother, son or friend doing this I would ask why he felt it was necessary.


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## Minncouple

Chilly - No worries about social security paying for steroids, the system is being sucked dry by obeseity and smokers.

Johnny - I guess we are just leading different lives. We wife and I, do take our appearence as an important aspect of our lives. The feeling of being inshape, is better than the taste of that double chocolate cake.


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## Entropy3000

Cherie said:


> 1. Enormous amounts of time in the gym is a sterotype. Many guys that use gear spend less time in the gym than guys and girls who don't.
> 2. "Wads of cash" is relative. These guys are the same guys that aren't often spending money on beer and pizza.
> 3. You're in no place to assume that all men who use gear have low self esteem. What a crock. They can be some of the most confident men I know.
> 4. How do you know the OP isn't attracted to the look? I'd take a musclebound guy with abs over the average fat american with ***** tits, or a runner who has bony hips anyday.


Is there a question about using gear? The use of gear is part of the sport.

I do powerlifting as a sport / hobby. I choose to lift raw and natural. I follow a Westside template. I really enjoy this. Why would this be a problem?

I don't play tennis, golf, or drink heavily. I have not spent gobs on a boat. I used to spend gobs on my car hobby. 

My point is that some folks like golfing, biking, motorcycles, cars, boating, drinking or whatever.

My profession is very cerebral in nature so my hobby is meant to provide a different focus.

I actually enjoy lifting heavy stuff. For those who compete the question of steroids is a whole other issue.

Some lifters use gear. Some are gear wh0res even. But so what? One could spend all sorts of cash on other hobbies. Anyonw ever buy a set of golf clubs and spend money golfin and at the 19th hole? Good for them.


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## Entropy3000

johnnycomelately said:


> I think it is quite sad that at 42 you care so much.


I am 57. Been married 35 years. I am still setting PRs. It is a hobby. I actually think it is a good idea for those folks OVER 40 to start putting extra time into getting themselves physically fit. It is not time to stop doing that .... LOL

There is another thread, that has a 42 year old woman having sex with her 29 year old personal trainer. The husband is 47. So what is not to understand? So people get older and are supposed to not care any more? Wow. I'd say that once you stop caring being the best you can, you have one foot in the grave and for sure your marriage does. 

I enjoy lifting and frankly I want to be in the best shape for my wife. But also I am just more able to enjoy life. 

No I am not risking steroid use. BUT if my T-levels were down I would look into that. Without steroids I have to work much harder though.


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## Cherie

Entropy3000 said:


> Is there a question about using gear? The use of gear is part of the sport.
> 
> I do powerlifting as a sport / hobby. I choose to lift raw and natural. I follow a Westside template. I really enjoy this. Why would this be a problem?
> 
> I don't play tennis, golf, or drink heavily. I have not spent gobs on a boat. I used to spend gobs on my car hobby.
> 
> My point is that some folks like golfing, biking, motorcycles, cars, boating, drinking or whatever.
> 
> My profession is very cerebral in nature so my hobby is meant to provide a different focus.
> 
> I actually enjoy lifting heavy stuff. For those who compete the question of steroids is a whole other issue.
> 
> Some lifters use gear. Some are gear wh0res even. But so what? One could spend all sorts of cash on other hobbies. Anyonw ever buy a set of golf clubs and spend money golfin and at the 19th hole? Good for them.


Well, you are agreeing with what I am saying/I agree with this post. Somebody else brought it up as a waste of money and I said it was all relative.


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## Entropy3000

Minncouple said:


> BTW, can some one tell me why it is wrong to care about your physical appearence? Really, I am at a loss on this one.


Personally I am passionate about whatever I do. If it is worth my time I put my efforts into it. It has made me successful in whatever I have engaged in. It is who I am. It is what is good about me frankly. Many things like this take a real effort. Some folks justify to themselves why they do not do it. So you cut down those who do. Go figure. Some folks put their efforts into drinking and partying.


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## sinnister

Minncouple said:


> Chilly - Steroids aren't killing football players. It's the constant brain trama.
> 
> Look, we all can agree steroids when miss-used can kill you.* But, regulated and safe use can also be benificial to your health.*
> 
> As far as the football players, well steroids are thier least concerns. Most over users of steroids, in professional sports, are also users of recreational drugs. It's a fast lifstyle that takes its toll. NO, Chris Benoet (sp) the wrestler who commited suicide didnt kill himself due to steroids alone, he was on a boat load of other drugs. It's just that the media and goverment are on a witch hunt for gossip to sell/pitch to the general public.


You can't have regulated and safe use of this type of drug unless under the care of a dr for a medical purpose...not aesthetic. Which is the primary reason most people use.

Look there is nothing wrong with wanting to be fit and look good..I wish I had the motivation not to be a fat slob as it was put. But it just screams of small dck syndrome to me.


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## Entropy3000

Cherie said:


> Well, you are agreeing with what I am saying/I agree with this post. Somebody else brought it up as a waste of money and I said it was all relative.


Yes, I am.

Ten years ago I spent 5K on a blower for my car. Now that is freudian. BUT, it was my hobby. I spent a ton more on the car in modifications. Much of the work I did myself. I also spent a lot of time on this. I needed the hobby as a break from my work. That is healthy.

At the time I had the extra cash. I was spending plenty on my wife and on us with vacations and so on. So I spent a little bit of my income on my hobby.

These days, I still like to travel with my wife, but I do like to lift as a hobby. I spend some money on this but the cost of some extra 45lb plates. A few supplements. My wife is very supportive and helps me with meals preparations and my diet in general. She sees the benefits.

I am not a fan of steroids but for competitive athletes I get it.

Gear is part of a sport. Like a good bike or a set of golf clubs.

Besides, lifting heavy weights is a very positve thing for men. It is good for their hormones period. When men are told to man-up we tell them to get to the gym. Lift heavy weights to get that T going.

I love to drink beer, but drinking a lot of beer and sitting on the couch watching chick flicks just increases your estrogen levels. Seriously.


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## johnnycomelately

Entropy3000 said:


> I an 57. Beenn married 35 years. I am still setting PRs. It is a hobby. I actually think it is a good idea for those folks OVER 40 to start putting extra time into getting themselves physically fit. It is not time to stop doing that .... LOL


I keep physically fit, that was not what I meant. I mean blowing yourself up with steroids and excessive bodybuilding. That is not fitness and is a minority taste as far as attractiveness is concerned.


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## Minncouple

Seems to me this thread has run its course. The winner, obesity. When you cant beat them, talk yourself into justifying not doing it. Good luck to all obese folks out there, your all on your pity pots about your lack of motivation.

Funny thing is, most people that serously work out, are not in it for the looks, more so the feeling. While vanity may have gotten the ball rolling, the feeling is what fuels the motivation.

I never show off my body, train in sweat pants and a long sleeve shirt. Only time I go shirtless is on vacations or in my pool. Even then I feel a tad uncomfortable.

Putting aside the steroid issue, the biggest issue eating away at our society is the lack of self accountability. It is continually told to people through media that it is OK to be obese. Look at that obese african american girl who was in that movie and is a singer, it glorifies obesity. You tell me that is right to teach your kid, it is ok if your fat?

Sorry, again on my rant.

I am done


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## Machiavelli

Minncouple said:


> BTW, can some one tell me why it is wrong to care about your physical appearence? Really, I am at a loss on this one.


You make everybody else look even worse.


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## Machiavelli

sinnister said:


> You can't have regulated and safe use of this type of drug unless under the care of a dr for a medical purpose...not aesthetic. Which is the primary reason most people use.


I've never used them myself, but quite a few of my former teammates and training partners have since elementary school back in the 60's (d-bol). In those days, you just needed a prescription. No biggy. In most countries, like Mexico for instance, you can buy it OTC.

What the vast majority of people do not realize is that the biggest users of anabolic steroids are elite competitive athletes, not bodybuilders. Bike racers, shooters, martial artists, golfers, swimmers, football, baseball, b-ball, sprinters, etc.



sinnister said:


> Look there is nothing wrong with wanting to be fit and look good..I wish I had the motivation not to be a fat slob as it was put. But it just screams of small dck syndrome to me.


No, it doesn't make your tool small, but your nuts will shrink for sure.

In a free country, adults would have liberty to decide whether or not they wanted to use the hormones or not. In a free country...


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## Minncouple

Actually Machaveilli - I am strating to rethink this whole "free society" thing. 

I see it as, the goverment may actualy be better at deciding things. Look at our society today. The majority of society is obsese. They eat fast food, smoke, live unhealthy. Then, expect someone to bail them out, or get a support group together so all the obese people can tell each other its ok. 

The whole steroid issue is tiny compared to the obesity epidemic we have in todays society. BUT, its easier to pick on steroids as the bad guy, as loosing weight and eating healthy is just too much work. 

sorry, being a tad bit sarcastic this morning.


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## Cherie

I like the free country thing. Let people eat themselves into obesity. It should be their fault. The bailouts are what I dont like b/c it makes people dependent/expectant. Survival of the fittest, I say. It may sound harsh, yes, but people need to use their brains. In the 50's and 60's this crap wouldn't have flown and we were a super power then. Now we're headed to Hell in a hand basket. Time to buck up, IMO.


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## Cherie

Back to the topic at hand here - How is everything going for the OP?? His cycle is done, is his PCT going ok? How are the emotions and how is the R going?


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## Machiavelli

Minncouple said:


> Actually Machaveilli - I am strating to rethink this whole "free society" thing.
> 
> I see it as, the goverment may actualy be better at deciding things. Look at our society today. The majority of society is obsese. They eat fast food, smoke, live unhealthy. Then, expect someone to bail them out, or get a support group together so all the obese people can tell each other its ok.
> 
> The whole steroid issue is tiny compared to the obesity epidemic we have in todays society. BUT, its easier to pick on steroids as the bad guy, as loosing weight and eating healthy is just too much work.
> 
> sorry, being a tad bit sarcastic this morning.


The obesity epidemic was hatched by George McGovern and his senate subcommittee. Puts a whole new spin on Govt Pork. See: "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and/or "Muscle, Smoke, and Mirrors."


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## Machiavelli

chillymorn said:


> I don't want social sercurity paying for your steroids or the health coverage to help because of some peoples abuse of it.


Then let people opt out of social security and all your problems are solved.


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## The_Swan

Minncouple said:


> Seems to me this thread has run its course. The winner, obesity. When you cant beat them, talk yourself into justifying not doing it. Good luck to all obese folks out there, your all on your pity pots about your lack of motivation.
> 
> Funny thing is, most people that serously work out, are not in it for the looks, more so the feeling. While vanity may have gotten the ball rolling, the feeling is what fuels the motivation.
> 
> I never show off my body, train in sweat pants and a long sleeve shirt. Only time I go shirtless is on vacations or in my pool. Even then I feel a tad uncomfortable.
> 
> Putting aside the steroid issue, the biggest issue eating away at our society is the lack of self accountability. It is continually told to people through media that it is OK to be obese. Look at that obese african american girl who was in that movie and is a singer, it glorifies obesity. You tell me that is right to teach your kid, it is ok if your fat?
> 
> Sorry, again on my rant.
> 
> I am done


Not everyone has the same mindset as you.
I applaud anyone and everyone who has confidence no matter their size.

Not everyone can look like "ideal" that the media constantly shoves at us and frankly your attitude towards others is harmful.
Body shaming is disgusting. You got awfully defensive when some in this thread criticized your lifestyle choices.
You don't have the right to do that to others.

You don't want your tax dollars paying for smokers and obese people? Well, I don't want my tax dollars supporting those who were foolish enough to take drugs.

I exercise on a regular basis and I'm happy with myself but what I do with my body is my business and I don't criticize someone if they decide they want to be bigger/not exercise etc.

They may not always feel that way about themselves since people do evolve emotionally and views change over time.

I recall in a previous topic you mentioned that you knew some married, female bodybuilders that willingly slept with dealers to get steroids.
That sounds like a huge problem to me.

And lastly:

If you want to claim that doctors just don't know anything and steroids are safe, back up your words with peer reviewed studies. Preferably by people with "M.D." after their names and not a bunch of steroid heads who are suffering from body image issues.

Thanks in advance!


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## Minncouple

Swan, I think you need to re-read my comments and understand my points. 

* Per CDC, percentage if US population that is obese 33%, percenatge of US population that abuses steroids .05%. Now, thats a very large swing. Comparing steroids to obesity as a drain on the US healthcare system is not a accurate or even close comparison.

* Your health care premiums are going up and up, due to obesity (remember 33% of population).

* I never said steroids are safe, they are dangerous when abused. BUT, when use properly are very benifical for the right individuals. The females that sleepwith their hook ups, are more than likely 10% of that .05% that abuse steroids. So, per your arguement, it would be more important to solve an issue that effects .05% of the population? Instead of solving one that effects 33% of the population? Please further elaborate your point of view on this.

* Doctors are the most uneductaed about steroids and thier uses. The ones consuming them for years and the real source of viable and pertinant information. These cases of high abuse are only starting to surface in atheletes aging into thier 40's now. These drugs have really one been around for the past 20 or so years, before that is was only a few compounds. These atheletes are being studied by doctors to gain this medical information. Thats my point. Any doc that has not be involved or prevy to these reports and studies are really just barking back what the books from the 70-80's told them during medical school.


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## Machiavelli

The_Swan said:


> Not everyone has the same mindset as you.


I don't think he every claimed they did.



The_Swan said:


> I applaud anyone and everyone who has confidence no matter their size.


Confidence in what? In any case, for most Americans that would be false confidence.



The_Swan said:


> Not everyone can look like "ideal" that the media constantly shoves at us and frankly your attitude towards others is harmful.


Tough. Which "ideal" are you talking about? Oprah, Paltrow, Vergara? Those are three quite different female types "shoved" on us by the media. Bottom line is that anyone running more than 30% body fat has a problem and any man at 13%BF and any woman at 18%BF is going to be much healthier than most of the population, with the side effect of looking quite good to anybody.



The_Swan said:


> Body shaming is disgusting.


Has it ever been tried?



The_Swan said:


> You got awfully defensive when some in this thread criticized your lifestyle choices.
> You don't have the right to do that to others.


Actually, he does have the right. It's a free country, after all.



The_Swan said:


> You don't want your tax dollars paying for smokers and obese people? Well, I don't want my tax dollars supporting those who were foolish enough to take drugs.


The obvious solution to that impasse is for the govt to stop confiscating private earnings and everyone can just support themselves. Let natural selection run its course. After all, it's not nice to fool with Mother Nature.



The_Swan said:


> I exercise on a regular basis and I'm happy with myself but what I do with my body is my business and I don't criticize someone if they decide they want to be bigger/not exercise etc.


So why criticize muscle heads who want to use AAS? It's strictly their business.



The_Swan said:


> I recall in a previous topic you mentioned that you knew some married, female bodybuilders that willingly slept with dealers to get steroids.
> That sounds like a huge problem to me.


Not really. Wh•res have been around since time immemorial and they always will be. In this specific circumstance, this behavior is a response to the fact that anabolics are artificially expensive. Back in the 70's this stuff was all legal and inexpensive with a prescription and used under medical supervision.
And lastly:



The_Swan said:


> If you want to claim that doctors just don't know anything and steroids are safe, back up your words with peer reviewed studies. Preferably by people with "M.D." after their names and not a bunch of steroid heads who are suffering from body image issues.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Steroids are quite safe under supervision of a competent doctor, which is why all the leading athletes in all sports use them.


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## Minncouple

Machiavelli -

"The obvious solution to that impasse is for the govt to stop confiscating private earnings and everyone can just support themselves. Let natural selection run its course. After all, it's not nice to fool with Mother Nature."

I completely agree. Base health care costs and premiums on how healthy you are. Let themweight you, inquire about your diet, habits (smoking, drinking, ext...), and the base your premium on that.

I, as a healthy male pay an enormous monthly healthcare bill. I only see a doc maybe once a year for an allergy or flu, yet I pay for all the obese people out there killing themselves.


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## MattMatt

I had a cousin who died, in part, from steroid use. But it was OK, as the damn fool doctor who had him on far over the recommended dose for multiple years over the maximum recommended time said he (the doctor) knew what he was doing.


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## Vanton68

MattMatt said:


> I had a cousin who died, in part, from steroid use. But it was OK, as the damn fool doctor who had him on far over the recommended dose for multiple years over the maximum recommended time said he (the doctor) knew what he was doing.


What type of steroids? There are many, many different steroids that have absolutely nothing to do with bodybuilding.


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## Machiavelli

MattMatt said:


> I had a cousin who died, in part, from steroid use. But it was OK, as the damn fool doctor who had him on far over the recommended dose for multiple years over the maximum recommended time said he (the doctor) knew what he was doing.


The first thing I was told when I was diagnosed with prostate cancer was that I was responsible for my own treatment plan. I had 3 months to educate myself on the disease and the various treatments. Anybody taking anything, including aspirin, needs to understand exactly what they are putting in their body.


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## ladybird

frustr8dhubby said:


> Are you both talking about REAL steroids? Never heard of "roid rage" or the long term affects on brain chemistry or male performance?


There was one "roid Rage" by a wrestler back in 2007 Chris Benoit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ofcourse it said he abused them.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2917133


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## Vanton68

ladybird said:


> There was one "roid Rage" by a wrestler back in 2007 Chris Benoit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Ofcourse it said he abused them.
> 
> Steroids discovered in probe of slayings, suicide - ESPN


He was also a drunk, had brain damage, and had enough pain killers in his system to kill a normal person. Looking at the side effects of what was in his body, steroids were the least of his problems.


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## bubbly girl

I was just curious...this question is for the pro steroid posters that have used the arguement of obesity. It just seems like you are all saying someone is superfit or a fat slob. Like there's no inbetween. One post mentioned a woman's body fat being 18% is the body that turns heads. Do you guys think if a woman has a body fat level that's higher, but surely well within the healthy range (say 22%) that she's unfit & overweight? Not bashing anyone as everyone has a right to their opinion of what's attractive. I'm just curious as to why some are making an arguement of such extremes. I think a woman can be incredibly sexy and healthy without having a model's body.

I'm guilty of letting myself go at one time (when I quit smoking no less. lol)...never to the obese level, but overweight. I work on myself. Eat healthy and execise and get my body back into nice shape. I'm hardly the statistic you keep talking about.


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## chillymorn

Minncouple said:


> Machiavelli -
> 
> "The obvious solution to that impasse is for the govt to stop confiscating private earnings and everyone can just support themselves. Let natural selection run its course. After all, it's not nice to fool with Mother Nature."
> 
> I completely agree. Base health care costs and premiums on how healthy you are. Let themweight you, inquire about your diet, habits (smoking, drinking, ext...), and the base your premium on that.
> 
> I, as a healthy male pay an enormous monthly healthcare bill. I only see a doc maybe once a year for an allergy or flu, yet I pay for all the obese people out there killing themselves.


what car you drive,how long you work ,what kind of job,is your marriage good and stress free,what sports and hobbies you do,how many kids you had,family history for cancer-heart disease-sucide-and a million other factors which can satisticaly help predict death.


where do you draw the line! maybe blood sample and they could test your DNA and see what your prone to die from.


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## Minncouple

Chilly, I draw the line at lack fo self accountability. If you eat like crap and are obese, then you should pay a higher health premium. If you are knowingly killing yourself by being over weight, why should the general HWP population bail you out.

I am not talking about cancer, or other illnesses that may appear. Obesity is a pretty obvious one that can be avoided. 

If some one is taking care of themselves, and living a healthy lifestyle, they should not be punished by those who are not.


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## Minncouple

Bubbygirl, a certain bodyfat level isnt always the best judgement call. Simply looking and feeling healthy is more important. A women over 30% would be obese, but some women look great at 20%. 

I do agree there is a happy medium for the general population. I understand I am not the average, and dont expect all to be like myself. I think that if most folks stand in front of a mirror naked, they could make a pretty good and accurate judgement call of themselves.


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## Minncouple

Lady - as the poster mentioned. Benoit was a train wreck of a life. Recreational durgs, mental issues, and a lot of other factors. Steroids were the least of his issues. I know several pro wrestlers and they all back up that he was a time bomb.


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## Juicer

Alright, I just saw this thread and had to comment. I also have known several guys that have done steroids, prohormones. And from my experience, steroids make you, a bigger version of whatever you were before you started taking them. 
So if you were a ****y, uncaring jerk, you'll become a larger, ****y, uncaring jerk.
But outside factors can definitely impact this. Someone that is pushed to far, while on steroids, will begin to have some psychological changes, or do things they may not otherwise have done. Everyone has a breaking point. It is unknown how steroids affect that.

I also want to dispel some medical myths:
Liver damage only occurs in oral steroids. Injectable steroids cause no liver damage. 
Now, steroids may cause damage to the heart. But that is entirely unknown to everyone. The reason is because there are no test done to show whether or not steroids have any adverse affects to the heart. Guys on forums will tell you different things, but so far, no studies show anything conclusive.
Also, there are no studies on how steroids affect the body really. There are 3rd party studies from companies trying to sell stuff, but how reliable is that?
Steroids do not cause balding. If you are genetically predisposed to go bald, you will likely go bald faster, but it won't make a male with no family history of balding lose all his hair. 
Roid rage is only noticed in 5% of the population of users. Now, that is while on steroids. On post-cycle, that is likely much higher.
They do not cause kidney damage. 
They will cause testicular atrophy depending on use. If you use them for prolonged periods, this is very difficult to reverse, and may not even be possible. If you use them as you are told too, (either by a doctor or a seasoned vet) you should be fine. However, all bodies differ, and it is impossible to truly know exactly how one's body changes with steroids. 

Now, are steroids really that bad for your health?
I know guys that are in their 40's that look like they are 28. It all honestly depends on how careful you are.

I would almost liken steroids to aspirin. (rough analogy) Used correctly, it will do its job, with minimal side-effects of the known possible side-effects. (unless you have a pre-existing condition) 
But go take the whole bottle, and see how you feel in an hour. Abuse happens everywhere. If you abuse em, be ready for the consequences.


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## Machiavelli

bubbly girl said:


> I was just curious...this question is for the pro steroid posters that have used the arguement of obesity. It just seems like you are all saying someone is superfit or a fat slob.


Something like that. Right now, I'm a fat slob myself. 6', 217# @ 20% BF. I've got 90 days to drop 20# and at 55, I'm not sure the old methods will work. But, I'll get pretty close. As men age and T levels drop, it gets tougher to keep the waist under control, even when the rest of the torso and limbs look good.



bubbly girl said:


> ILike there's no inbetween. One post mentioned a woman's body fat being 18% is the body that turns heads. Do you guys think if a woman has a body fat level that's higher, but surely well within the healthy range (say 22%) that she's unfit & overweight?


Nope, but almost any woman at 18% is guaranteed to stop traffic. 20% isn't bad either, for most women. I've known very hot women who were at or near 30%, but they were exceptional. Most of the girls in the athletic dorm when I was in college in the 70s were 15% or so. Now that was an extreme BF level. No periods. The dianabol probably helped, though.

Not bashing anyone as everyone has a right to their opinion of what's attractive. I'm just curious as to why some are making an arguement of such extremes.[/QUOTE]

18% is not really extreme.



bubbly girl said:


> II think a woman can be incredibly sexy and healthy without having a model's body.


Which model? As I said before, there are numerous types of models out there. If you mean Kate Moss, she's got a terrible body.



bubbly girl said:


> II'm guilty of letting myself go at one time (when I quit smoking no less. lol)...never to the obese level, but overweight. I work on myself. Eat healthy and execise and get my body back into nice shape. I'm hardly the statistic you keep talking about.


Which statistic? The .7 waist/hip ratio?


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## Goldmember357

Performance enhancing drugs can be helpful or harmful it all depends on what is taken and how much. 

people who say "steroids are bad" have no idea what they are talking about. 

yes they can be bad but again it depends on what PED you are taking.

Anyhow your husband is in denial about his use that is a problem.

best of luck maybe marriage counseling?


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## kuteguy

Just evoking that normal level of taking Performance enhancing drugs (steroids) only amplifies issues you had anyway (hair loss, anger issues, etc). If you didn't have any of these then you won't suddenly get them by taking steroids. 

Steroids are generally safe when taken sensibly; and don't listen to all the crap out there telling you otherwise.. It's just an old wives tale and there isn't any real scientific proof to prove steroids are bad.

ofcourse natural is best but we all are not given the same genetics by mother nature so some synthetic re-balancing sounds fair for those that are so inclined


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## Knoxvillekelly

tell him it makes his nuts shrink to the size of a raisin


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## 40isthenew20

Knoxvillekelly said:


> tell him it makes his nuts shrink to the size of a raisin


Anyone who has done the slightest bit of research (and I'm hoping that people who use juice have done their homework) know that is a side effect that is not permanent.


----------

