# Telling your spouse your attracted to other people. OK or NOT?



## stacylong

Hello to everyone. I am new to this board and I had a question that I need an answer to. Everyone here seems to be genuine in their discussions and comments so I felt posting here would be a good idea.

In my previous marriage I never mentioned when I found another woman attractive because I felt it would be hurtful to wife. My first wife only told me on rare occasions when she was attracted to someone and it was always done in what I think was a tasteful and sensitive manner.

In my new marriage things are different. My new wife for whatever reason thinks its ok to continually tell me or point out men that she thinks are very attractive. Very early in our relationship she would use the term HOT! > Her delivery of the word hot was a very guttural sound as if she were an animal in heat and would jump his bones on the spot. I told her that I am aware she will still notice men but would appreciate her not practically having an orgasm when she found someone else who she thought was attractive. To give her credit she has become very tasteful in her choice of words now when she describes other men that she is attracted to. But does it make it right?

I know fact I do not have the same liberty to express to her when I think another woman is attractive . I once mentioned to her that Jennifer Lopez had the body of a Goddess when we watched television one night after my wife insisted on knowing what I thought of her. Of course my wife was deeply hurt that I expressed my attraction to another woman who I would never met. She even said that I would forsake my marriage vows and have sex with Jennifer if I ever had the chance.

Contrast that to her telling me that she saw a man in her business meeting who she said was so attractive that she could or could see herself marrying him if it were not for me. The only issue was that he was a mixed race and her parents were highly prejudice and she would not know how she could explain this man to her mother.

I am being too sensitive or should my wife be more tactful about how and when she expresses her attraction to other men to me? Or is it ever ok to openly talk about your attraction to another person with your spouse? I would really love to hear from men and women on this subject.

Edit*****
Forgot to mention in my first post. Her friend is single and she is looking for a relationship, they will get together and my wife will try to find her men. Very often they have conversations about who is good looking and who is not in my presence. I have corrected that problem by trying to not be with them for activities anymore.

UPDATE****

This update is in response to several questions from various posts that I have read.

Yes she would comment on men since the beginning of our relationship. Sometimes she would then say I think your hot to, otherwise I would not be with you.***Note*** that I did tell her very early on after maybe a week or two of her always commenting on how HOT other men were that I made it very clear that was not acceptable for me and I did not like it. So she immediately made an effort to change as far as her wording. After my talk with her she no longer used the term HOT or cut back a whole lot, and started to use the term attractive or good looking. In addition, she no longer acts like she is having an orgasm while she says it.

Why am I here? I personally thought that the scenario in which she talked about this other man was taking things way to far. Since she always accuses me of being too sensitive I wanted to see what the rest of the general population would think of such a scenario.

Do I think she would cheat? No. But if she did then I guess I have no one to blame but myself for trusting her. Personally I think she is just immature in that area and does not realize that while I am her best friend I am still her husband. I know she has eyes to see and so do I, its what you do with the thoughts that really matter.

Do I see myself as confident? Yes. I am also an Alpha male and don't believe in playing games. While I may not be a ten in my own eyes I have had enough women tell me in my adult life I am a very good looking man so confidence on my part is not an issue.


----------



## GusPolinski

There's nothing wrong w/ expressing attraction to others -- especially celebrities or other people w/ whom you're unlikely to EVER have any sort of actual contact -- if done in a tactful manner.

That said, I'd advise you to find a way to calmly point out your wife's hypocrisy to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Married but Happy

I dislike double standards, so if she is going to tell you when and how she finds other men attractive and expect you to be okay with that, then she needs to afford you the same consideration. Otherwise, she needs to stop doing it and keep her thoughts to herself. If she does not, I would do as she does, and if she dislikes it, keep reminding her that you won't accept a double standard.


----------



## Marduk

Lol.

My wife used to be like that. For years.

Until I nutted up and told her about a supermodel I thought was hot.

She didn't speak for me for two days.

Now, we have honest but sensitive conversations about stuff like that.


----------



## joannacroc

I guess it depends what YOU find hurtful and insensitive. If you point out to her that you just don't want to know when she finds someone else attractive (that's what it sounds like), then she will probably cut it out. Then you would need to follow suit, of course, and keep it to yourself if you see someone attractive. It seems to vary from person to person. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but unless it's a celebrity, I DON'T want to know if the person I'm with finds someone else attractive. It causes a lot of anxiety. But then that's because I was cheated on before. Some married couples seem to be fine with pointing this out to one another but just because it works for them, it doesn't mean you have to communicate the same way with your spouse. It's hurtful to you. Express that to her.


----------



## brooklynAnn

I believe what is good for the gander should be good for the goose. 

Your wife sounds childish, like she is reliving her teenage years.

If she can broadcast to you that so, so and so is HOOOT. Then, you can tell her the same. How come she gets to do it without controversy? But when you do, it's a problem. 

We still have eyes and can admire people all we want, the difference is, we don't do so while making our spouse feel bad about themselves.

Admire away to her and if she complains then, explain to her the double standards she has.


----------



## jld

Is a man's holding the door for a woman hypocrisy and a double standard, too?

OP, I think her transparency with you is a sign of great trust in you. Feel proud of that--you earned it.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> Is a man's holding the door for a woman hypocrisy and a double standard, too?
> 
> OP, I think her transparency with you is *a sign of great trust in you*. Feel proud of that--you earned it.


Or lack of respect and empathy.


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> Or lack of respect and empathy.


I think for a sensitive man, it may feel that way. I don't know that the woman means it that way, though. I highly doubt she does, actually.


----------



## brooklynAnn

jld said:


> Is a man's holding the door for a woman hypocrisy and a double standard, too?
> 
> OP, I think her transparency with you is a sign of great trust in you. Feel proud of that--you earned it.



Are we reading the same thing? She is admiring other men and finding them so HOT infront of OP. But when he mentions that JLo is hot, she get offended. How is her behavior oK?


----------



## Outside Again

We comment on another persons looks occasionally. However, 100% of the time it's someone on a TV show or movie and I think that is fine. If we were in a public place and checking people out, yeah, that would be a little weird. But hey, everyone is different.


----------



## jld

brooklynAnn said:


> Are we reading the same thing? She is admiring other men and finding them so HOT infront of OP. But when he mentions that JLo is hot, she get offended. How is her behavior oK?


"Ok" is a value judgment. It may not be okay to him. And if it is not okay with him, she will likely have to adjust if she wants to keep him happy.


----------



## ABHale

For a wife to say she would marry a man in her business meeting if she was not married to you. Really. Commenting on someone is one thing, saying they would marry someone else is red flag future. What she is doing is not a show of trust in you, if she did trust you she would have never gone off on what you said about Jennifer Lopez. Her point of view is that she can look and fantasize about any man she see's and make verbal comments to you about it. You have to wear shutters and keep your mouth shut. Hypocrite maybe with no trust in you.


----------



## 225985

stacylong said:


> In my new marriage the game has changed. My new wife for whatever reason thinks its ok to continually tell me or point out men that she thinks are very attractive. Very early in our relationship she would use the term HOT! > Her delivery of the word hot was a very guttural sound as if she were an animal in heat and would jump his bones on the spot.* I told her that I am aware she will still notice men but would appreciate her not practically having an orgasm when she found someone else who she thought was attractive.* To give her credit she has become very tasteful in her choice of words now when she describes other men that she is attracted to. But does it make it right?
> 
> Contrast that to her telling me that she saw a man in her business meeting who she said was so attractive that she could or could see herself marrying him if it were not for me. The only issue was that he was a mixed race and her parents were highly prejudice and she would not know how she could explain this man to her mother.
> 
> *I am being too sensitive* or should my wife be more tactful about how and when she expresses her attraction to other men to me? Or is it ever ok to openly talk about your attraction to another person with your spouse? I would really love to hear from men and women on this subject.


Did your wife clearly understand that you find this action of hers to be disrespectful. She may have viewed that comment as a joke. If this bothers you, be clear to her about it. Tell her again in clear words and have her acknowledge what you said. 

This has nothing to do about her trust for you. It is all about HER, as she has shown that she was pi$$ed when you mentioned the celebrity. She is more concerned about her parent's feelings in a hypothetical scenario than your actual real feelings?

As the other posted mentioned, it is probably safe to mention the attractiveness of a celebrity. It is a whole different story when you mention the attractiveness of people to whom you have potential access. That your wife said she could see herself marrying this man also means she could see herself having sex with him. I would never tell my wife I find my younger single coworker to be attractive. My wife would interpret that to mean I want to have sex with her, *and she would be right.*

Well, if your wife continues this, at least you will know who is the Other Man when she has an affair, as she would have at one time told he she found that guy to be hot. 

Stop trying to be this "sensitive" guy. Women do not find that hot, nor will it give her an 0rgasm. This also could be a $hit test from her to judge your reaction. You failed if you allow this to continue. 

Read "Married Man's Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I think for a sensitive man, it may feel that way. I don't know that the woman means it that way, though. I highly doubt she does, actually.


Telling your spouse that you're attracted to someone is being honest.

Growling while you do it is being childish and hurtful.

Would Dug do that? What would you do if he did?


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Telling your spouse that you're attracted to someone is being honest.
> 
> Growling while you do it is being childish and hurtful.


Again, that is your judgment of it. Not all men may see it that way.



> Would Dug do that? What would you do if he did?


No, he would not. I have never seen him look at a woman twice. 

That would be completely out of my range of experience with him. It is like asking me what I would do if I saw him talking to a ghost or flying around in the sky.


----------



## ReidWright

I don't do it, and wouldn't like it if my wife did it. 

What's the point? what good can come from it? great, you think that movie star is really sexy. you and millions of other people...that's why they are in the movies and not working at a grocery store.

someone she's had or is having personal contact with? red flag city. Possible fitness test.


----------



## stacylong

Well that is what she has told me exactly. That she tells me these things because she loves me so much and trusts me. However If I were to do the same it would not matter how respectful I am when I say it it would hurt her feelings and she would not talk to me.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Again, that is your judgment of it. Not all men may see it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> No, he would not. I have never seen him look at a woman twice.
> 
> That would be completely out of my range of experience with him. It is like asking me what I would do if I saw him talking to a ghost or flying around in the sky.


Exactly.


----------



## Marduk

stacylong said:


> Well that is what she has told me exactly. That she tells me these things because she loves me so much and trusts me. However If I were to do the same it would not matter how respectful I am when I say it it would hurt her feelings and she would not talk to me.


Do it anyway.

That's what I did, and my wife now appreciates the gentle honesty and sensitivity, and she's a lot more respectful in return.


----------



## ConanHub

She has a problem. 

How secure would you say she is or feels?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 225985

jld said:


> Again, that is your judgment of it.* Not all men may see it that way.*


The only judgment that matters here is OP's and he DOES see it that way.


----------



## jld

stacylong said:


> Well that is what she has told me exactly. That she tells me these things because she loves me so much and trusts me. However If I were to do the same it would not matter how respectful I am when I say it it would hurt her feelings and she would not talk to me.


Sounds normal. We are usually attracted by the differences, not the similarities, if we are heterosexual. 

And what is it you would like instead? Have you communicated that to her?


----------



## jld

I think the more secure you are in yourself and in the relationship, the less of an issue it will be, OP.


----------



## stacylong

ConanHub said:


> She has a problem.
> 
> How secure would you say she is or feels?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is not very secure. She knows she is over weight and has gained alot of weight since we first met. She tried to explain to me that I am far more fit ( I have not worked out in years but some people still comment on me and say "I can tell you used to lift weights." ) than she is and that she will never achieve the body of what JLo has. she said if you start to work out will achieve the perfect look and I wont.


----------



## TBT

In my opinion,people get attracted to other people on occasion and not necessarily just in a sexual way. To me that's just life. Truthfully though,maybe finding a celebrity attractive aside,who really wants to hear a spouse,SO etc.,go on and on about how attractive they find someone in the immediate area of their own playground? I know I don't... it's just my nature.


----------



## stacylong

jld said:


> Sounds normal. We are usually attracted by the differences, not the similarities, if we are heterosexual.
> 
> And what is it you would like instead? Have you communicated that to her?


I have specifically told her that if she is going to mention how other men are attractive she needed to be more respectful to me about and not act as if she was almost having an orgasm describing them. As I said in my first post she has been much much more respectful in how she tells me. It just really bothered me when she told me that she was SO attracted to this man that she would marry him and played out a scenerio in her head if she would not be married to me. By the way the day she told me this was our 9 month anniversary


----------



## jld

stacylong said:


> I have specifically told her that if she is going to mention how other men are attractive she needed to be more respectful to me about and not act as if she was almost having an orgasm describing them. As I said in my first post she has been much much more respectful in how she tells me. It just really bothered me when she told me that she was SO attracted to this man that she would marry him and played out a scenerio in her head if she would not be married to me. By the way the day she told me this was our 9 month anniversary


Can you elaborate on why this bothered you? It is not like it is ever going to happen, right?

It is your right to be bothered, btw. I am not saying it is not. But if you think about where the feeling comes from, your reaction to all of this may change on its own.


----------



## samyeagar

stacylong said:


> I have specifically told her that if she is going to mention how other men are attractive she needed to be more respectful to me about and not act as if she was almost having an orgasm describing them. As I said in my first post she has been much much more respectful in how she tells me. It just really bothered me when she told me that she was SO attracted to this man that she would marry him and played out a scenerio in her head if she would not be married to me. By the way the day she told me this was our 9 month anniversary


Does she ever act the same way about you? Unprompted, out of the blue tell you how attractive she finds you in the same near orgasmic way?


----------



## ABHale

This is not a insecurity problem, this is a wife saying things best left unsaid. The short of it, my wife and I have problems, most of it caused by her relationship with her brother, he laid a guilt trip on my wife starting back in 94 till about 8 years ago when she finally told me about it. In a conversation about two weeks ago my wife said it was caused by us getting married, I told her I could remedy that problem in about 90 days. Sorry, but I am not insecure about myself at all. There are things you just don't say. I see no problem with saying someone is good looking if the two of you are discussing that individual. To continually comment on guys passing by and then the thing in the meeting about if she was not married to you. I know of one thing to say to cure that little saying.


No that was not the whole conversation with my wife. Not going to thread Jack.


----------



## JohnA

First it is the framing of the response that is key. For example saying God I think Nancy at work is so hot. If I wasn't married to you I would go for it in a NY second - asking for trouble. Saying I find women who dress and act provacatively hot, describe dress and behavior. I guess because it sends to me a message (describe message) is that crazy or is there really something there? That is not personal and may act as a clue for her on how to get your motor running. 

A good response to her statements is to ask her "what are you saying to me". Is it a hint? Is it a shape up or ship out warning? Is it a nothing personal, is it hey you might be the flavor of the year and it won't effect ask, but I might step out for a second? She will react at first to the latter question, feel attacked and shut down. Your response is to focus on my first question. Reassure her, stress learning about each other is at times hard. But trust combined with honesty builds a better marriage
There is a thread here by a woman who wants her husband to be very demanding and just "take her" at times. She can't bring him to tell him and he has never tried most likely as a sign of respect for her. Could her actions be a form of this? How much does role playing enter into your life?


----------



## jld

Her willingness to be transparent with you is something that you may want to reconsider compromising, OP. A woman who tells you everything--the good, the bad, and the ugly--is unlikely to be a woman you ever feel the need to put a VAR on, for example.


----------



## tech-novelist

brooklynAnn said:


> Are we reading the same thing? She is admiring other men and finding them so HOT infront of OP. But when he mentions that JLo is hot, she get offended. How is her behavior oK?


Oh, that's easy. Here's an easy way to determine whether anything is okay:

If women do it, it's okay regardless of what men think.
If men do it, it's not okay if women (or their wives) don't like it.


----------



## stacylong

jld said:


> Can you elaborate on why this bothered you? It is not like it is ever going to happen, right?
> 
> It is your right to be bothered, btw. I am not saying it is not. But if you think about where the feeling comes from, your reaction to all of this may change on its own.


It bothers me because I dont have the right to do it to her. Of course she would insist that she would not stop me, but the truth is she would be very hurt if I were to start talking about how attractive certain women were especially if the women were in real obtainable reach of me.

Will she do it? I doubt it. Its just the principle that I thought seeing yourself married to someone else and playing out a whole scenario then telling your spouse is taking it to far.

My personal opinion is when a couple can occasionally express their attraction to other people in a respectful manner then they have a healthy relationship.


----------



## stacylong

jld said:


> Can you elaborate on why this bothered you? It is not like it is ever going to happen, right?
> 
> It is your right to be bothered, btw. I am not saying it is not. But if you think about where the feeling comes from, your reaction to all of this may change on its own.





samyeagar said:


> Does she ever act the same way about you? Unprompted, out of the blue tell you how attractive she finds you in the same near orgasmic way?


She told me when we first got together that she thought I was HOT but not anymore.


----------



## tech-novelist

stacylong said:


> She is not very secure. She knows she is over weight and has gained alot of weight since we first met. She tried to explain to me that I am far more fit ( I have not worked out in years but some people still comment on me and say "I can tell you used to lift weights." ) than she is and that she will never achieve the body of what JLo has. she said if you start to work out will achieve the perfect look and I wont.


Ok, so now we have more information about the real problem.

Which is her, not you.

She should lose the extra weight and then maybe she won't be so sensitive.


----------



## nirvana

My take:
If my wife says that 'XYZ' celebrity is hot, I have no problems with it. My wife like Leo DiCaprio right from the her teen years so I am cool with it because Leo is unattainable. 

If she said she liked Paul from work and how hot he is, I would have a problem with that. A big one. Mainly because there is a possibility that something might happen.


----------



## JohnA

My ex at times would go on about her ex's around me and family members. I remember being in the car with her and her aunt and uncle when she did so. Part of her comments hinted at past "racey past behavior with an ex's. Her aunt asked me does that bother me and that I never seem to talk about my past like her niece did. I shrugged and said: "those who can do, those that can't talk". There followed a very long pause of dead silence. After a bit I glanced at my ex who had a very funny look on her face. I told her "the past is the past and if that is want I wanted do you really think I couldn't have stayed? 

Never heard again on that subject as she seemed very confused.

Oh by the way my ex liked to talk big, but not much beef there. As for myself, I guess my middle manes would be "huh" and "misadventures". My cote values: no adultery (single with married is adultery for both) respect BF/GF relationship, never take advantage-if a person was at risk step in and protect, don't trade on hidden assumptions on her part. I guess Fornication can be great, adultery is always evil.


----------



## jld

stacylong said:


> It bothers me because I dont have the right to do it to her. Of course she would insist that she would not stop me, but the truth is she would be very hurt if I were to start talking about how attractive certain women were especially if the women were in real obtainable reach of me.
> 
> Will she do it? I doubt it. Its just the principle that I thought seeing yourself married to someone else and playing out a whole scenario then telling your spouse is taking it to far.
> 
> My personal opinion is when a couple can occasionally express their attraction to other people in a respectful manner then they have a healthy relationship.


For sure, we all pay a price for how we interact with our spouse. And the "rules" are not necessary exactly the same. Might help to think about the advantages they provide, though, too.

Women, and perhaps men, too, tend to have big imaginations when it comes to romance. But fantasy is so different from reality. You may want to have a conversation with her on that.

There are probably many measures of a healthy relationship. A convo with her on that subject, getting both of your input on the definition of healthy, may be interesting for both of you, too.

I would encourage you to keep the communication open, OP. It can be hard to open up a person who has shut down.


----------



## ConanHub

stacylong said:


> She is not very secure. She knows she is over weight and has gained alot of weight since we first met. She tried to explain to me that I am far more fit ( I have not worked out in years but some people still comment on me and say "I can tell you used to lift weights." ) than she is and that she will never achieve the body of what JLo has. she said if you start to work out will achieve the perfect look and I wont.


Yeah. I figured. She is coping in an unhealthy manner.

She needs to realize this and work to improve herself, mentally and emotionally, because she is damaging her relationship by her behavior.

She probably has trouble communicating her discomfort with herself and possibly battles depression.

Would she be willing to read books with you and/or attend marriage seminars or MC?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## stacylong

ConanHub said:


> Yeah. I figured. She is coping in an unhealthy manner.
> 
> She needs to realize this and work to improve herself, mentally and emotionally, because she is damaging her relationship by her behavior.
> 
> She probably has trouble communicating her discomfort with herself and possibly battles depression.
> 
> Would she be willing to read books with you and/or attend marriage seminars or MC?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes she would. I am already seeing a counselor for resentment issues that I have towards her for things such as this among other things. Before she goes into my counseling sessions I want to be able to fully express all of my thoughts and feelings to my counselor.


----------



## *Deidre*

Your wife has issues, and sounds like they stem from poor self esteem and body image issues. She constantly tells you these things so you are taken down a notch, and she doesn’t have to be insecure all by herself. She needs counseling, and if she does not change this behavior, your marriage is in for a long, horrible ride. 

As a side issue…All of this makes me wonder why people marry people that don’t seem to be their types? If she is gushing over guys that look nothing like you…why did she marry you? If you re gushing over girls that don’t resemble your wife at all, why did you marry her?


----------



## jb02157

It's always better to leave comments like this you'd like to make unsaid. It's not going to be worth the explaining you'll have to do afterward.


----------



## stacylong

*Deidre* said:


> Your wife has issues, and sounds like they stem from poor self esteem and body image issues. She constantly tells you these things so you are taken down a notch, and she doesn’t have to be insecure all by herself. She needs counseling, and if she does not change this behavior, your marriage is in for a long, horrible ride.
> 
> As a side issue…All of this makes me wonder why people marry people that don’t seem to be their types? If she is gushing over guys that look nothing like you…why did she marry you? If you re gushing over girls that don’t resemble your wife at all, why did you marry her?


Truth be told the men that she finds very attractive or HOT in her words do look like me. Usually clean shaven, well built, moderately tanned or interracial men, and military men.

I married her because I love her and i think she is pretty.


----------



## *Deidre*

stacylong said:


> Truth be told the men that she finds very attractive or HOT in her words do look like me. Usually clean shaven, well built, moderately tanned or interracial men, and military men.
> 
> I married her because I love her and i think she is pretty. She does not have the perfect body but I choose to look past that.


There’s nothing wrong with commenting that someone else is attractive to one another…but gushing over others and saying she’d marry someone if she weren’t married to you …lol That’s just an indication that your wife has insecurity issues. Maybe you both should work out together, and start building each other up…instead of this one upping game you both have going on?


----------



## ConanHub

stacylong said:


> Yes she would. I am already seeing a counselor for resentment issues that I have towards her for things such as this among other things. Before she goes into my counseling sessions I want to be able to fully express all of my thoughts and feelings to my counselor.


This is actually a good course.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> There’s nothing wrong with commenting that someone else is attractive to one another…but gushing over others and saying she’d marry someone if she weren’t married to you …lol That’s just an indication that your wife has insecurity issues. Maybe you both should work out together, and start building each other up…instead of this one upping game you both have going on?


Why do you think this is a one upping game rather than just her transparently sharing her feelings with him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> Why do you think this is a one upping game rather than just her transparently sharing her feelings with him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not everything that enters ones mind needs to exit ones mouth.


----------



## RainbowBrite

I think it's very disrespectful, personally. She is showing a complete disregard for your feelings.


----------



## EllisRedding

stacylong said:


> Contrast that to her telling me that she saw a man in her business meeting who she said was so attractive that she could or could see herself marrying him if it were not for me. The only issue was that he was a mixed race and her parents were highly prejudice and she would not know how she could explain this man to her mother.


WTF, how is any of this ok to say to your spouse???  Your wife sounds like a child, plain and simply.


----------



## *Deidre*

jld said:


> Why do you think this is a one upping game rather than just her transparently sharing her feelings with him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because she doesn't like when he 'shares' back.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Her willingness to be transparent with you is something that you may want to reconsider compromising, OP. A woman who tells you everything--the good, the bad, and the ugly--is unlikely to be a woman you ever feel the need to put a VAR on, for example.


Actually, I think the opposite is true.

I think disrespectful comments about men -- especially men in real life -- Is a **** test.

Without some kind of pushback, it's essentially giving her the thumbs up to lust after him.

It's like the difference between me saying to my wife "your friend has been working out a lot, she looks great!" And "Oh my god your friend is so hot I just want to bend her across the dining room table."

The former is just fine, and honest -- the latter could be either "I'm going to cheat on you, fair warning!" Or "I'm not attracted to you anymore, I could do better!" Or "I want to make you jealous" Or "why aren't you mate guarding me?"


----------



## larry.gray

marduk said:


> Actually, I think the opposite is true.
> 
> I think disrespectful comments about men -- especially men in real life -- Is a **** test.
> 
> Without some kind of pushback, it's essentially giving her the thumbs up to lust after him.


Yep. If your wife has a sister, telling how hot of an ass her sister has would have passed the **** test.


----------



## jld

Is anything your wife says or does realistically going to make you stop lusting after other women, Marduk?

OP's wife may not be saying it anymore, but I bet she is still feeling it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

jld said:


> Her willingness to be transparent with you is something that you may want to reconsider compromising, OP. A woman who tells you everything--the good, the bad, and the ugly--is unlikely to be a woman you ever feel the need to put a VAR on, for example.


 If the mind is wandering and talking aloud about others is not indication of future fidelity. IMO.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Is anything your wife says or does realistically going to make you stop lusting after other women, Marduk?
> 
> OP's wife may not be saying it anymore, but I bet she is still feeling it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I totally get your point.

But there's lusting and then there's _lusting._ Like the difference between noticing another woman and being honest if asked, vs lying about noticing her but secretly fantasizing about her.

I found when I started being honest with my wife when she asked me, it seemed to release all the tension about it. Because it's not a secret thing that is hidden and fetishized like a I'm 15 and have a stack of playboys under my mattress.

I'm a man. I'm going to notice attractive women. And because I'm a husband, I let that 'noticing' go at that. And that's all I expect from her, too. Not to stop noticing hot guys, but not to fixate or fetishize about it, either.

We're grown ups and should be able to be simultaneously honest and respectful.


----------



## Yeswecan

marduk said:


> I'm a man. I'm going to notice attractive women. And because I'm a husband, I let that 'noticing' go at that. And that's all I expect from her, too. Not to stop noticing hot guys, but not to fixate or fetishize about it, either.
> 
> We're grown ups and should be able to be simultaneously honest and respectful.


Yep. Let it go at noticing. Nothing more. Exactly how I handle it.


----------



## *Deidre*

There’s nothing wrong with noticing attractive people and commenting, but it is a two way street. The OP’s wife doesn’t like hearing about who he finds hot. So, it doesn’t seem to be that she is lusting after others, it seems to be partly a game, partly she’s insecure. Secure people don’t play head games or do sh*t tests. They just don’t.


----------



## RainbowBrite

jld said:


> Is anything your wife says or does realistically going to make you stop lusting after other women, Marduk?
> 
> OP's wife may not be saying it anymore, but I bet she is still feeling it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are lots of things that I may think or feel in a moment that I don't share with my husband because I don't want to hurt him or destabilize my marriage. There are lots of things I don't share with others in any relationship out of respect for the other person.

I don't tell H when I have a lustful thought about another man - why would I want him to have that thought in his head? How should he handle that knowledge? Would he wonder if there was more to it than a passing appreciation of the guy's attractiveness? Of course he would! How would that be a good thing? (Unless he was talking up other women to me, in which case I would probably hit him with a dose of the same medicine to make a point.)

It's just like I wouldn't tell my kids about how great someone else's kids are and how happy I'd be if they were my kids. I don't tell my hair stylist how great my friend's hair stylist is. I don't tell the chef where I'm eating how great the food is at another restaurant down the road. 

It's simple respect.


----------



## jld

OliviaG said:


> It's just like I wouldn't tell my kids about how great someone else's kids are and how happy I'd be if they were my kids.


Do you actually feel that way?


----------



## EllisRedding

Yeswecan said:


> Yep. Let it go at noticing. Nothing more. Exactly how I handle it.


Keep in mind too, the OPs wife made it personal. To me it is one thing if the OPs wife said "Brad Pitt is hot". That is nothing more than a fantasy. However, the OPs wife told him not only that she would wed a guy she met at a business meeting, but gave it so much thought that she went into detail about why it wouldn't work out (i.e. mixed race). This goes way beyond just noticing, and maybe a more troubling sign?


----------



## RainbowBrite

jld said:


> Do you actually feel that way?


What way? That I would never say that? Yes.


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> Because she doesn't like when he 'shares' back.


I still don't see how that is one upping, which I see as some sort of competitive power struggle.

I agree she has her insecurities, but to me that is not one upping.

And OP obviously has some, too, or this thread would not even exist.


----------



## jld

OliviaG said:


> What way? That I would never say that? Yes.


That you would actually like to have different children.

The OP's wife is saying things she really thinks. I don't think you truly want different children.


----------



## samyeagar

OliviaG said:


> There are lots of things that I may think or feel in a moment that I don't share with my husband because I don't want to hurt him or destabilize my marriage. There are lots of things I don't share with others in any relationship out of respect for the other person.
> 
> I don't tell H when I have a lustful thought about another man - why would I want him to have that thought in his head? How should he handle that knowledge? Would he wonder if there was more to it than a passing appreciation of the guy's attractiveness? Of course he would! How would that be a good thing? (Unless he was talking up other women to me, in which case I would probably hit him with a dose of the same medicine to make a point.)
> 
> It's just like I wouldn't tell my kids about how great someone else's kids are and how happy I'd be if they were my kids. I don't tell my hair stylist how great my friend's hair stylist is. I don't tell the chef where I'm eating how great the food is at another restaurant down the road.
> 
> It's simple respect.


Would it be alright to blurt out how unflattering and unattractive it is when the wife bends over a certain way and her belly rolls and cottage cheeses all over the place? She should be thrilled, flattered and honored that he has so much trust in her that he can be open and honest right?


----------



## *Deidre*

jld said:


> I still don't see how that is one upping, which I see as some sort of competitive power struggle.
> 
> I agree she has her insecurities, but to me that is not one upping.
> 
> And OP obviously has some, too, or this thread would not even exist.


I dunno…would you want to hear your SO tell you about someone at work, that if they weren’t married to you, they’d want to marry that person? There’s no reason to hurt the person you are supposed to love, in a relationship. Imagine all the great relationships that would exist if people stopped this nonsense, and poured their energy into the person they took vows with…there’d be less divorces, I’m sure.


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> Would it be alright to blurt out how unflattering and unattractive it is when the wife bends over a certain way and her belly rolls and cottage cheeses all over the place? She should be thrilled, flattered and honored that he has so much trust in her that he can be open and honest right?


If they had an equal relationship that would be okay. I doubt it is equal, though. And I think the OP is having a hard time accepting the power she is handing over to him.


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> I dunno…would you want to hear your SO tell you about someone at work, that if they weren’t married to you, they’d want to marry that person? There’s no reason to hurt the person you are supposed to love, in a relationship. Imagine all the great relationships that would exist if people stopped this nonsense, and poured their energy into the person they took vows with…there’d be less divorces, I’m sure.


I think there would be more great relationships if people could hear everything without necessarily taking everything personally.


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> I think there would be more great relationships if people could hear everything without necessarily taking everything personally.


So you would be fine if Dug told you he met a woman on business trip that he could totally see himself marrying b/c she was so incredibly hot? For some reason, I imagine a tantrum from you over this ...


----------



## RainbowBrite

jld said:


> That you would actually like to have different children.
> 
> The OP's wife is saying things she really thinks. I don't think you truly want different children.


No, I don't want different children so I would never share that I did, even if I were being absolutely honest.

Here's what I mean: 

I have sons. I love them with my whole heart, am proud of the men they've become, would never trade them for anything.

I am also close with some of my friends' daughters and have been very close with a few of my sons' girlfriends. I LOVE having another woman around to talk to about girl-type stuff. I love how they're chatty and they're in tune with me in a different way than my sons are. And sometimes I have thought - "Oh, it would be so nice to have a daughter!"

Now, this is an honest thought - I'd love to have a daughter *in addition to* my sons. But I would never say within my sons' earshot, that I wished I had a daughter.


----------



## ABHale

jld said:


> Her willingness to be transparent with you is something that you may want to reconsider compromising, OP. A woman who tells you everything--the good, the bad, and the ugly--is unlikely to be a woman you ever feel the need to put a VAR on, for example.


So would you be ok telling your husband this and expanding on it like his wife did?

"Contrast that to her telling me that she saw a man in her business meeting who she said was so attractive that she could or could see herself marrying him if it were not for me. The only issue was that he was a mixed race and her parents were highly prejudice and she would not know how she could explain this man to her mother".


This is a lot more then "Hey his cute".


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> So you would be fine if Dug told you he met a woman on business trip that he could totally see himself marrying b/c she was so incredibly hot? For some reason, I imagine a tantrum from you over this ...


If he were the kind of man to have those thoughts, we would probably not be together. Because like many people on this thread, I could not handle hearing it.

But unlike them, I would not ask him not to say it. I would just realize we are not compatible and move on.

I need a man who can take care of me, not a man I need to take care of.


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> If he were the kind of man to have those thoughts, we would probably not be together. * Because like many people on this thread, I could not handle hearing it.*
> 
> But unlike them, I would not ask him not to say it. I would just realize we are not compatible and move on.
> 
> I need a man who can take care of me, not a man I need to take care of.


Lol, your advice is priceless given the bold.

So basically if he came home from work today and told you this, you would just move on.

Your last statement is just pathetic, I can only feel bad for your H ...


----------



## *Deidre*

jld said:


> I think there would be more great relationships if people could hear everything without necessarily taking everything personally.


I don’t subscribe to this type of thing in my relationship with my fiancé, so…it just seems like a lot of drama, to be honest.


----------



## jld

OliviaG said:


> No, I don't want different children so I would never share that I did, even if I were being absolutely honest.
> 
> Here's what I mean:
> 
> I have sons. I love them with my whole heart, am proud of the men they've become, would never trade them for anything.
> 
> I am also close with some of my friends' daughters and have been very close with a few of my sons' girlfriends. I LOVE having another woman around to talk to about girl-type stuff. I love how they're chatty and they're in tune with me in a different way than my sons are. And sometimes I have thought - "Oh, it would be so nice to have a daughter!"
> 
> Now, this is an honest thought - I'd love to have a daughter *in addition to* my sons. But I would never say within my sons' earshot, that I wished I had a daughter.


Why?

How about starting a thread on this in the Ladies Lounge? I have only one daughter and four sons, and my sons absolutely know I wanted more daughters. Does not mean I love them any less.

Making preferences like this no big deal by accepting them, being transparent about them, and working through them is a healthier way of handling them than increasing sensitivity by hiding them, imo.


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> Lol, your advice is priceless given the bold.
> 
> So basically if he came home from work today and told you this, you would just move on.
> 
> Your last statement is just pathetic, I can only feel bad for your H ...


 @Duguesclin, what do you think? Do you feel bad for yourself in light of my comment?

If this sort of thing would have come up before we were married, I would have acted on it then. After nearly 23 years and five children, I don't think I will ever be leaving, no.

OP, did this issue come up before marriage? Has she always been transparent with you?


----------



## *Deidre*

jld said:


> Why?
> 
> How about starting a thread on this in the Ladies Lounge? I have only one daughter and four sons, and my sons absolutely know I wanted more daughters. Does not mean I love them any less.
> 
> Making preferences like this no big deal by accepting them, being transparent about them, and working through them is a healthier way of handling them than increasing sensitivity by hiding them, imo.


You are right, but it needs to be mutual. No one has a problem with transparency…but it’s not mutual with the OP and his wife. That’s the problem he has…not that she occasionally talks about a hot guy. But, that she can’t take his ‘transparency.’


----------



## RainbowBrite

jld said:


> Why?
> 
> How about starting a thread on this in the Ladies Lounge? I have only one daughter and four sons, and my sons absolutely know I wanted more daughters. Does not mean I love them any less.
> 
> Making preferences like this no big deal by accepting them, being transparent about them, and working through them is a healthier way of handling them than increasing sensitivity by hiding them, imo.


No, I've got no interest in starting a thread about this, but you should go ahead if you'd like to debate it.

I really think that you are not thinking this idea through. If you found out tomorrow that Dug did occasionally entertain these sorts of thoughts (which it is extremely likely that he does, and it is also extremely likely that he's sensible enough never to tell you about them), then I doubt that you'd break up your children's home because of it.

The fact is that we do not share every thought in our heads, none of us do. If we did, we would be social outcasts.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> You are right, but it needs to be mutual. No one has a problem with transparency…but it’s not mutual with the OP and his wife. That’s the problem he has…not that she occasionally talks about a hot guy. But, that she can’t take his ‘transparency.’


Basically OP is insecure and needs his W to take care of him ...


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> @Duguesclin, what do you think? Do you feel bad for yourself in light of my comment?
> 
> If this sort of thing would have come up before we were married, I would have acted on it then. After nearly 23 years and five children, I don't think I will ever be leaving, no.
> 
> OP, did this issue come up before marriage? Has she always been transparent with you?


Of course he won't feel bad in the context of your relationship. I suspect he will feel that any man who would not like this is weak and threatened. I also suspect it will be conveyed in that special way you and dug have of subtle condescension.

You two, and your relationship are outliers and are largely an invalid comparison and sounding board for the vast majority of people.

That said, and as I have said many times before, you and dug are absolutely perfect for each other.


----------



## I Don't Know

jld said:


> If he were the kind of man to have those thoughts, we would probably not be together. Because like many people on this thread, I could not handle hearing it.
> 
> But unlike them, I would not ask him not to say it. I would just realize we are not compatible and move on.
> 
> I need a man who can take care of me, not a man I need to take care of.


Is it just me? :scratchhead:

Why wouldn't you feel honored that Dug trusted you enough to share his feelings? And if you wouldn't feel that way, why would you think someone else should?


Have you ever said something similar (to the OP's situation) to Dug? How did he react? If not why haven't you?


----------



## *Deidre*

Can’t help but think if OP were female, and stated all of this, many here would be telling her to start snooping asap…bet he’s cheating, etc etc 

But, because he’s a guy, some of the responses are for him to stop being insecure and to appreciate his wife’s ‘’transparency’’ about the guy at work. 

Interdasting.


----------



## Yeswecan

EllisRedding said:


> Keep in mind too, the OPs wife made it personal. To me it is one thing if the OPs wife said "Brad Pitt is hot". That is nothing more than a fantasy. However, the OPs wife told him not only that she would wed a guy she met at a business meeting, but gave it so much thought that she went into detail about why it wouldn't work out (i.e. mixed race). This goes way beyond just noticing, and maybe a more troubling sign?


The person at the W business is certainly an concern. It appears to me if the opportunity presented itself there would be someone taking up the opportunity.


----------



## I Don't Know

@*Deidre* That's always the line with some posters. The man is supposed to just soak any and everything the woman throws his way. 

Actually she wouldn't even be advised to snoop. She would be told she deserves better and how dare him insult her in such a way.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> Can’t help but think if OP were female, and stated all of this, many here would be telling her to start snooping asap…bet he’s cheating, etc etc
> 
> *But, because he’s a guy, some of the responses are for him to stop being insecure and to appreciate his wife’s ‘’transparency’’ about the guy at work. *
> 
> Interdasting.


Just one person is arguing this ... and you are correct, this point is being argued because she sees the OP as weak being a guy...


----------



## EllisRedding

Yeswecan said:


> The person at the W business is certainly an concern. It appears to me if the opportunity presented itself there would be someone taking up the opportunity.


Exactly, she is literally auditioning scenarios in her head every time she meets a hot guy ...


----------



## samyeagar

Yeswecan said:


> The person at the W business is certainly an concern. It appears to me if the opportunity presented itself there would be someone taking up the opportunity.


Of course, if he was a man of any character, the wife wouldn't stand a chance, and it is a pretty arrogant assumption on her part to think he would reciprocate.


----------



## RainbowBrite

*Deidre* said:


> You are right, but it needs to be mutual. No one has a problem with transparency…but it’s not mutual with the OP and his wife. That’s the problem he has…not that she occasionally talks about a hot guy. But, that she can’t take his ‘transparency.’


Well, that's not entirely true. I have a problem with transparency. I think if you did a survey you'd find out that people with extremely happy, long marriages are (in general) very careful about what they share with their spouses. The idea that spouses should always be absolutely honest and transparent about their every thought and desire is absolute bunk. Be honest about the things that matter and keep to yourself the things that don't. Know the difference. That's the key, IMO.


----------



## MattMatt

My wife does this sometimes. But she is discrete about it.

However, she also points out women who she thinks I should find attractive. All stick thin.

She asked me what girls I did fancy I pointed to a girl not far away ans said: "She's pretty."

My wife then said, puzzled, "But she's about my size!"

To which I said: "Yes. I know!"


----------



## RainbowBrite

MattMatt said:


> My wife does this sometimes. But she is discrete about it.
> 
> However, she also points out women who she thinks I should find attractive. All stick thin.
> 
> She asked me what girls I did fancy I pointed to a girl not far away ans said: "She's pretty."
> 
> My wife then said, puzzled, "But she's about my size!"
> 
> To which I said: "Yes. I know!"


You are a wise man, Matt.


----------



## jld

OliviaG said:


> No, I've got no interest in starting a thread about this, but you should go ahead if you'd like to debate it.
> 
> I really think that you are not thinking this idea through. If you found out tomorrow that Dug did occasionally entertain these sorts of thoughts (which it is extremely likely that he does, and it is also extremely likely that he's sensible enough never to tell you about them), then I doubt that you'd break up your children's home because of it.
> 
> The fact is that we do not share every thought in our heads, none of us do. If we did, we would be social outcasts.


I just asked him and he said he does not have those kinds of She's hot! lusting thoughts. He does notice when a woman is attractive, but does not dwell on it. Iow, it registers but then goes right on through.

He will be on in a few hours. He is working right now and does not come on during the work day.

I think OP is wise to be in counseling. He is a sensitive man and if he cannot let go of this, then his wife may indeed need to curtail ner transparency. I do think that will come at a cost, though. My opinion.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> I just asked him and he said he does not have those kinds of She's hot! lusting thoughts. He does notice when a woman is attractive, but does not dwell on it. Iow, it registers but then goes right on through.
> 
> He will be on in a few hours. He is working right now and does not come on during the work day.
> 
> I think OP is wise to be in counseling. He is a sensitive man and if he cannot let go of this, then his wife may indeed need to curtail ner transparency. *I do think that will come at a cost*, though. My opinion.


Her so called transparency already has a cost that is getting higher by the day, but she is too caught up in her own little world to even realize it.


----------



## RainbowBrite

jld said:


> I just asked him and he said he does not have those kinds of She's hot! lusting thoughts. He does notice when a woman is attractive, but does not dwell on it. Iow, it registers but then goes right on through.


I guess it's possible that he doesn't but I'd find it easier to believe that he does occasionally have those lusting thoughts but he's wise enough to keep them to himself. I would never be able to drag such an admission from my own husband either, because he's a smart guy and would see immediately that there is no upside to sharing anything like that with me.


----------



## Yeswecan

EllisRedding said:


> Exactly, she is literally auditioning scenarios in her head every time she meets a hot guy ...


Great way to describe it.


----------



## samyeagar

OliviaG said:


> I guess it's possible that he doesn't but I'd find it easier to believe that he does occasionally have those lusting thoughts but he's wise enough to keep them to himself. I would never be able to drag such an admission from my own husband either, because he's a smart guy and would see immediately that there is no upside to sharing anything like that with me.


I notice attractive women, but it is very much out of sight out of mind. I see, it registers, then the thought is gone. I don't really have any sexual thoughts about them though, never thinking about them in bed, or even naked. My mind just doesn't go there, so there is nothing to come out of my mouth in the first place.

I'm sure some would not think this is a good thing, by not too long ago, I forget how it came up, but my wife could not point to one person, celebrity or otherwise that she knew for certain I thought was hot...other than herself.


----------



## Yeswecan

OliviaG said:


> Well, that's not entirely true. I have a problem with transparency. I think if you did a survey you'd find out that people with extremely happy, long marriages are (in general) very careful about what they share with their spouses. The idea that spouses should always be absolutely honest and transparent about their every thought and desire is absolute bunk. Be honest about the things that matter and keep to yourself the things that don't. Know the difference. That's the key, IMO.


Your opinion is dead on.


----------



## Yeswecan

> jld;15200249]I just asked him and he said he does not have those kinds of She's hot! lusting thoughts. He does notice when a woman is attractive, but does not dwell on it. Iow, it registers but then goes right on through.


 I bet my next paycheck he does have thoughts. Unless he is a Eunuch.:grin2:


----------



## MattMatt

OliviaG said:


> You are a wise man, Matt.


My wife then realised that I have a thing about women with large bottoms. Though I never told her.

She thinks that is hilarious and teases me about women with large bottoms whenever we see one!


----------



## Buddy400

I my wife or I ever mention an attractive person of the opposite gender, it is followed by "that is the* second *best ....... I've ever seen".


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> @Duguesclin, what do you think? Do you feel bad for yourself in light of my comment?
> 
> If this sort of thing would have come up before we were married, I would have acted on it then. After nearly 23 years and five children, I don't think I will ever be leaving, no.
> 
> OP, did this issue come up before marriage? Has she always been transparent with you?


Dug isn't allowed to have any sort of reaction to what you say, that would make him weak and you wouldn't feel safe


----------



## nirvana

*Deidre* said:


> Your wife has issues, and sounds like they stem from poor self esteem and body image issues. She constantly tells you these things so you are taken down a notch, and she doesn’t have to be insecure all by herself. She needs counseling, and if she does not change this behavior, your marriage is in for a long, horrible ride.


Good insight.
My wife has some self esteem issues that stem from childhood even though she is intelligent and good looking and has maintained herself very well. She should be on the top of the world. Instead she picks fault in herself and tries to pull me down as well. I fully agree with you when you say that she says these things to pull him down so she isn't insecure all by herself. Now she can say "we both are losers". Great point.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Op,

How old are you two? How is your sex life? Is it frequent and are you a little aggressive in your desire for her? 

If not, fix that and take her like you mean it, especially after she says stuff like that. Make no comment other than something innocuous, like you don't give a damn.

Read some of those men's books. My guess is this is a weird shyt test. She wants you to want her and not tell her, but show her in bed and out of bed. 

I'm guessing this is something new and not something you've come to expect from her? She does it with her friend who is single and looking? Yeah, not so sure she isn't thinking herself. She has to be getting all bothered with all the talk. This friend isn't good for your marriage.


----------



## Middle of Everything

jld said:


> Why?
> 
> How about starting a thread on this in the Ladies Lounge? I have only one daughter and four sons, and my sons absolutely know I wanted more daughters. Does not mean I love them any less.
> 
> Making preferences like this no big deal by accepting them, being transparent about them, and working through them is a healthier way of handling them than increasing sensitivity by hiding them, imo.


So which of your sons is your least favorite and you wish would have been a girl? In the interest of full transparency that is.


----------



## Vinnydee

After losing my first fiancee to cheating and then my rebound girlfriend to the same thing, I came to believe that strict monogamy is the cause of many failed marriages. As humans we are designed to be attracted to others. We cannot control that by thought. it is a chemical process that like love and hate, can strike instantly without warning. Sometimes we are uncontrollably drawn to people and once emotions come into play, we make bad decisions. I recognized that expecting strict sexual fidelity is more of a pipe dream these days of easy access to others whether at work or on your PC.

When I was marrying, I looked at what was required by society and religion. It seems that if I wanted to be morally right about having sex with another women, even just once, I was obliged to destroy all that my wife and I built first, sell off our family home, get divorced and then and only then, would I be morally OK. I thought that there must be a better way and I found it. Our marriage is monogamish. We are realist and know that sexual attraction is a function of brain chemistry and not thought. We would both be attracted to other people, and make bad choices that we regret the next day. We figured why tell the other and let their mind go crazy imagining what went on and if the person was better looking, younger or even better in bed, than you. We saw no reason to view sex with another as a reason to divorce, get jealous or angry about.

Sex with others was to be the exception and not the rule. We would do our best to be monogamous, at least when not playing with others as a couple, but as long as we did not fall in love with someone else but just sex with them, it was not a deal breaker. We allowed for a few instances of this happening. Neither of us get jealous. We both know that we would never leave the other for someone else. Many say that, but we have proven that to be true over our 40+ years of marriage. Some say that we are terrible for not demanding sexual fidelity of each other, as we watched them cheat and divorce in a couple of years. 

We lived our marriage as we defined it and it worked out very well for us. My wife and I agree that if we were strictly monogamous, we too would have divorced. You are probably thinking that we had sex with others hundreds of times over 40+ years. I had sex 6 times and my wife just had sex with her best girlfriend who we ending up sharing for most of our marriage. I think we had less sex outside marriage than others who claim to be monogamous. Humans seem to prefer serial monogamy because they do not share well. Just look at the anger when one spouse cheats. Despite progress, we still seem to think we own our spouses and they are our property and no trespassing allowed. Whatever the case, our marriage is fantastic and filled with love and lots of fun, both in and out of the bedroom. You cannot argue with success. Sex with others did not even cause a ripple in our marriage and we had a don't ask, don't tell policy. Even if my wife had sex with a different guy every week, I was not aware of it and it did nothing to take away from her love and time for me so who cares.


----------



## sapientia

I believe in the progression that thoughts --> words --> actions.

I love my H and he is the only man in the world for me. So I don't let my mind go down into the weeds.

My H >>>> other men. This is the only thing that I ever tell him. That is all.


----------



## Yeswecan

Vinnydee said:


> After losing my first fiancee to cheating and then my rebound girlfriend to the same thing, I came to believe that strict monogamy is the cause of many failed marriages. As humans we are designed to be attracted to others. We cannot control that by thought. it is a chemical process that like love and hate, can strike instantly without warning. Sometimes we are uncontrollably drawn to people and once emotions come into play, we make bad decisions. I recognized that expecting strict sexual fidelity is more of a pipe dream these days of easy access to others whether at work or on your PC.
> 
> When I was marrying, I looked at what was required by society and religion. It seems that if I wanted to be morally right about having sex with another women, even just once, I was obliged to destroy all that my wife and I built first, sell off our family home, get divorced and then and only then, would I be morally OK. I thought that there must be a better way and I found it. Our marriage is monogamish. We are realist and know that sexual attraction is a function of brain chemistry and not thought. We would both be attracted to other people, and make bad choices that we regret the next day. We figured why tell the other and let their mind go crazy imagining what went on and if the person was better looking, younger or even better in bed, than you. We saw no reason to view sex with another as a reason to divorce, get jealous or angry about.
> 
> Sex with others was to be the exception and not the rule. We would do our best to be monogamous, at least when not playing with others as a couple, but as long as we did not fall in love with someone else but just sex with them, it was not a deal breaker. We allowed for a few instances of this happening. Neither of us get jealous. We both know that we would never leave the other for someone else. Many say that, but we have proven that to be true over our 40+ years of marriage. Some say that we are terrible for not demanding sexual fidelity of each other, as we watched them cheat and divorce in a couple of years.
> 
> We lived our marriage as we defined it and it worked out very well for us. My wife and I agree that if we were strictly monogamous, we too would have divorced. You are probably thinking that we had sex with others hundreds of times over 40+ years. I had sex 6 times and my wife just had sex with her best girlfriend who we ending up sharing for most of our marriage. I think we had less sex outside marriage than others who claim to be monogamous. Humans seem to prefer serial monogamy because they do not share well. Just look at the anger when one spouse cheats. Despite progress, we still seem to think we own our spouses and they are our property and no trespassing allowed. Whatever the case, our marriage is fantastic and filled with love and lots of fun, both in and out of the bedroom. You cannot argue with success. Sex with others did not even cause a ripple in our marriage and we had a don't ask, don't tell policy. Even if my wife had sex with a different guy every week, I was not aware of it and it did nothing to take away from her love and time for me so who cares.


Not sure how this helps in this thread.


----------



## EllisRedding

Yeswecan said:


> Not sure how this helps in this thread.


He posts this in all the threads (pretty sure it is saved in a word file somewhere for easy pasting) ... part of the whole open marriage mantra ...


----------



## 2ntnuf

Vin,


What is your advice for OP? Do you believe his wife is horny? If so, it's from talking about other men all the time with the friend, just like reading a sexy book, she is getting her juices flowing. So, you think he should give in to her urges and be a cuckold instead of being the man she wants?


----------



## stacylong

2ntnuf said:


> Op,
> 
> How old are you two? How is your sex life? Is it frequent and are you a little aggressive in your desire for her?
> 
> If not, fix that and take her like you mean it, especially after she says stuff like that. Make no comment other than something innocuous, like you don't give a damn.
> 
> Read some of those men's books. My guess is this is a weird shyt test. She wants you to want her and not tell her, but show her in bed and out of bed.
> 
> I'm guessing this is something new and not something you've come to expect from her? She does it with her friend who is single and looking? Yeah, not so sure she isn't thinking herself. She has to be getting all bothered with all the talk. This friend isn't good for your marriage.


I am 45 and she is 36. I have always made it clear to her how much I love her in actions and words. We have always been sexually aggressive together but lately there have been some things that I have become resentful over. Hence the counseling. I needed to find a way to deal with my resentment. As for that day... It was our 9 month wedding anniversary. I found the strength to ignore what she said that day so I could concentrate on giving her a 1 hour full body massage that I had planned for her that evening. It ended with us having really good sex.


----------



## *Deidre*

nirvana said:


> Good insight.
> My wife has some self esteem issues that stem from childhood even though she is intelligent and good looking and has maintained herself very well. She should be on the top of the world. Instead she picks fault in herself and tries to pull me down as well. I fully agree with you when you say that she says these things to pull him down so she isn't insecure all by herself. Now she can say "we both are losers". Great point.


Yea, I don't think the OP's wife is interested in having an affair, she just doesn't feel good about herself (as can be observed from him stating how she gets hurt when he is 'transparent' with her) and this is her way of 'keeping control.' It's always an unwise move to 'test' your partner. It would be better if she spent her energy finding ways to work on herself, and stop putting her marriage to unnecessary tests.


----------



## *Deidre*

EllisRedding said:


> He posts this in all the threads (pretty sure it is saved in a word file somewhere for easy pasting) ... part of the whole open marriage mantra ...


off topic, but I didn't ''recognize'' you with your new avatar.  LOL


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> off topic, but I didn't ''recognize'' you with your new avatar.  LOL


Oh don't worry, it will get better


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> Yea, I don't think the OP's wife is interested in having an affair, she just doesn't feel good about herself (as can be observed from him stating how she gets hurt when he is 'transparent' with her) and this is her way of 'keeping control.' It's always an unwise move to 'test' your partner. It would be better if she spent her energy finding ways to work on herself, and stop putting her marriage to unnecessary tests.


I don't think she is testing him or keeping control. I think she trusted him with all of her thoughts. And now she has been forbidden from giving him that trust.


----------



## 2ntnuf

stacylong said:


> I am 45 and she is 36. I have always made it clear to her how much I love her in actions and words. We have always been sexually aggressive together but lately there have been some things that I have become resentful over. Hence the counseling. I needed to find a way to deal with my resentment. As for that day... It was our 9 month wedding anniversary. I found the strength to ignore what she said that day so I could concentrate on giving her a 1 hour full body massage that I had planned for her that evening. It ended with us having really good sex.


She needs some IC as well. Forget if you said she was going or not? Also, she needs friends that won't be an issue with your marriage. 

Don't know or want to know what you do, but I'd mix it up a bit in and out of the bedroom and remember, you have to make love to her mind first. Her body will follow. 

Good luck.


----------



## *Deidre*

jld said:


> I don't think she is testing him or keeping control. I think she trusted him with all of her thoughts. And now she has been forbidden from giving him that trust.


She forbids him by showing she can't take his 'honesty,' shouldn't it be a two way street? That's why I think it's about control, and her self esteem. Two secure people can share things...anything. But, when one person is secure and the other isn't...it doesn't work that way. This is just my guess, we could all be way off base, but it just seems like she can't handle his honesty, but expects him to accept hers. That's not at all fair, when you think about it.


----------



## *Deidre*

And if a husband were to come home to his loving and doting wife (which the OP sounds loving to his wife) telling her ''hey, babe...there's this hot executive assistant that just got hired. If I weren't married to you, I'd be married to her,'' people would be suggesting to the wife to seek legal counsel. lol


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> She forbids him by showing she can't take his 'honesty,' shouldn't it be a two way street? That's why I think it's about control, and her self esteem. Two secure people can share things...anything. But, when one person is secure and the other isn't...it doesn't work that way. This is just my guess, we could all be way off base, but it just seems like she can't handle his honesty, but expects him to accept hers. That's not at all fair, when you think about it.


It is not equal. But not every relationship is equal. That is not the problem. Not everyone has an equal relationship and not everyone is unhappy that way.

The problem is that he is not happy with the inequality of it. And he can either become better able to accept it, or she can learn not to share transparently. Or they can meet in the middle. Or quit the marriage, I guess.

She does not forbid anything that I remember. OP, did she tell you that you cannot tell her your thoughts? But you did tell her she is not allowed to share her thoughts, or can only do it in the way you allow, correct?


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> And if a husband were to come home to his loving and doting wife (which the OP sounds loving to his wife) telling her ''hey, babe...there's this hot executive assistant that just got hired. If I weren't married to you, I'd be married to her,'' people would be suggesting to the wife to seek legal counsel. lol


If they thought she were more vulnerable, yes.


----------



## *Deidre*

jld said:


> It is not equal. But not every relationship is equal. That is not the problem. Not everyone has an equal relationship and not everyone is unhappy that way.
> 
> The problem is that he is not happy with the inequality of it. And he can either become better able to accept it, or she can learn not to share transparently. Or they can meet in the middle. Or quit the marriage, I guess.
> 
> She does not forbid anything that I remember. OP, did she tell you that you cannot tell her your thoughts? But you did tell her she is not allowed to share her thoughts, or can only do it in the way you allow, correct?


This is from post one:

_I know fact I do not have the same liberty to express to her when I think another woman is attractive . I once mentioned to her that Jennifer Lopez had the body of a Goddess when we watched television one night after my wife insisted on knowing what I thought of her. Of course my wife was deeply hurt that I expressed my attraction to another woman who I would never met. She even said that I would forsake my marriage vows and have sex with Jennifer if I ever had the chance._

Doesn't sound like he can be open and honest with her. That's actually the problem, not the fact that she is honest, but that he can't be honest in return.


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> This is from post one:
> 
> _I know fact I do not have the same liberty to express to her when I think another woman is attractive . I once mentioned to her that Jennifer Lopez had the body of a Goddess when we watched television one night after my wife insisted on knowing what I thought of her. Of course my wife was deeply hurt that I expressed my attraction to another woman who I would never met. She even said that I would forsake my marriage vows and have sex with Jennifer if I ever had the chance._
> 
> Doesn't sound like he can be open and honest with her. That's actually the problem, not the fact that she is honest, but that he can't be honest in return.


She was indeed hurt by what he said. But she did not forbid his ever doing it.

There is a cost to his being transparent with her, no doubt. But it does not sound like he needs that, in this particular context, anyway. 

What he needs is for her to feel his pain, I would say. And then she will have to decide what to do with that. And he will have to see how he feels about her decision.


----------



## *Deidre*

jld said:


> She was indeed hurt by what he said. But she did not forbid his ever doing it.
> 
> There is a cost to his being transparent with her, no doubt. But it does not sound like he needs that, in this particular context, anyway.
> 
> What he needs is for her to feel his pain, I would say. And then she will have to decide what to do with that. And he will have to see how he feels about her decision.


I think you make a very good point, here. You could be right. I think that at the end of the day, if there is a problem ...that is where the transparency needs to come in also. To be able to discuss it, and hopefully, grow from it. We're all works in progress.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> And if a husband were to come home to his loving and doting wife (which the OP sounds loving to his wife) telling her ''hey, babe...there's this hot executive assistant that just got hired. If I weren't married to you, I'd be married to her,'' people would be suggesting to the wife to seek legal counsel. lol


They are in a new marriage and already she is playing out in her head what marriage would be like with other guys ... could you imagine what will happen when this marriage eventually hits a rough patch ...


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> They are in a new marriage and already she is playing out in her head what marriage would be like with other guys ... could you imagine what will happen when this marriage eventually hits a rough patch ...


I have a friend who has been married 25 years who went to counseling the first year with her husband. Some people get their problems out of the way straight off.


----------



## Blondilocks

The married world would be a lot better off if people kept their opinions on who's hot and who's not to themselves. What do they hope to gain from sharing? Just a bunch of irrelevant nonsense polluting their experience. When you're together, how's about concentrating on each other? Not showing your spouse what they are not.


----------



## straightshooter

Looks like we have the new double standard going here.

if a man ogles other women, especially in his partners presence, he is considered a "pig".

But when a woman acts like OP's wife, it's just good old gorl fun.

OP, your original post states your wife's single friend and her are always looking for guys for the friend and that it is so bothersome to you to listen to their conversations that you do not hang around them any more.

if i were you I would adjust that statement or the next thing you will find out is that not only did they find a man for her friend but he had a buddy that your wife found "hot".

Wake up. You need to have a talk with your wife and figure out if she still wants to be married.

there is nothing wrong with finding other people attractive, but to actively be a single friends "wingwoman" and you acceptance of it is sending her a message that all is OK.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

straightshooter said:


> Looks like we have the new double standard going here.
> 
> if a man ogles other women, especially in his partners presence, he is considered a "pig".
> 
> But when a woman acts like OP's wife, it's just good old gorl fun.
> 
> OP, your original post states your wife's single friend and her are always looking for guys for the friend and that it is so bothersome to you to listen to their conversations that you do not hang around them any more.
> 
> if i were you I would adjust that statement or the next thing you will find out is that not only did they find a man for her friend but he had a buddy that your wife found "hot".
> 
> Wake up. You need to have a talk with your wife and figure out if she still wants to be married.
> 
> there is nothing wrong with finding other people attractive, but to actively be a single friends "wingwoman" and you acceptance of it is sending her a message that all is OK.


One person doesn't make a double standard. Only one person is pushing the lust and divorce red herrings.


----------



## MarriedDude

stacylong said:


> Well that is what she has told me exactly. *That she tells me these things because she loves me so much and trusts me*. However If I were to do the same it would not matter how respectful I am when I say it it would hurt her feelings and she would not talk to me.


It sounds like she trusts you with her glaring insecurity


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> I have a friend who has been married 25 years who went to counseling the first year with her husband. Some people get their problems out of the way straight off.


Not saying people cant have marital issues from the start. However, fantasizing about being married to other men goes well beyond that. Either she is saying it just to pull off the mother of all $hit tests. If so she is acting likely nothing more than a child and hopefully the OP makes it clear these types of mind games will not be tolerated. Maybe she is insecure and gets strength by tearing other people down, a surefire way to deteriorate the marriage over time. Of course she could seriously be thinking about other guys, taking the "grass is greener on the other side approach" in which case she should have never gotten married in the first place.


----------



## jdawg2015

Spot on.

I had a previous gf who used to make comments about other men. I think she was trying to make me jealous. 

Then I flipped the role on her and started commenting about other women. But I did it specifically commenting on things that I had complimented my gf about since I knew it would draw a direct comparison to the other women in her brain. Needless to say the comments about other men stopped almost immediately.

OP, I was like you with my exW. I would never have commented about another women in front of her. Now that I'm dating again it seems a lot of these women do exactly what you are saying. I think it can be a very bad trait for a women to be commenting about other men at work, within a social setting, etc. Movie stars etc who cares. But real people with whom either is in proximity to smacks of disrespect. 

Telling you that she'd be with another man if not for you? That's way over the line and I'd be have a conversation with her about it. I would tell her that that's crossing the line and I would say something like, "I guess I should start lining up my possible candidates "if not for you" too". No way in hell I would have let the comment roll without a discussion.

And the double standard your wife employs is telling you something. If she's so innocent with it, then why can't you? My advice, go tit for tat. Every time she does it, do it right back to her. Best way to zap this is do it right back at her, be relentless never to let a comment slide.



marduk said:


> Lol.
> 
> My wife used to be like that. For years.
> 
> Until I nutted up and told her about a supermodel I thought was hot.
> 
> She didn't speak for me for two days.
> 
> Now, we have honest but sensitive conversations about stuff like that.


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> Not saying people cant have marital issues from the start. However, fantasizing about being married to other men goes well beyond that. Either she is saying it just to pull off the mother of all $hit tests. If so she is acting likely nothing more than a child and hopefully the OP makes it clear these types of mind games will not be tolerated. Maybe she is insecure and gets strength by tearing other people down, a surefire way to deteriorate the marriage over time. Of course she could seriously be thinking about other guys, taking the "grass is greener on the other side approach" in which case she should have never gotten married in the first place.


I disagree with all of that. Sounds fear-based to me.

I think she is just fantasizing out loud, letting her imagination run wild. She does it because she trusts him. Or trusted him. 

I think he is going to regret shutting her down . . . when he could have just laughed and teased her about it from time to time. That could have led to some great sex.


----------



## jld

jdawg2015 said:


> Telling you that she'd be with another man if not for you? That's way over the line and I'd be have a conversation with her about it. I would tell her that that's crossing the line and I would say something like, "I guess I should start lining up my possible candidates "if not for you" too". No way in hell I would have let the comment roll without a discussion.
> 
> And the double standard your wife employs is telling you something. If she's so innocent with it, then why can't you? My advice, go tit for tat. Every time she does it, do it right back to her. Best way to zap this is do it right back at her, be relentless never to let a comment slide.


I think this advice could lead to escalation of tension, OP.


----------



## Middle of Everything

jld said:


> I disagree with all of that. Sounds fear-based to me.
> 
> I think she is just fantasizing out loud, letting her imagination run wild. She does it because she trusts him. Or trusted him.
> 
> I think he is going to regret shutting her down . . . when he could have just laughed and teased her about it from time to time. That could have led to some great sex.


So unless my wife is insecure and afraid, I should be able to say hypothetically "fantasize out loud and let my imagination run wild" and tell her say......I think the neighbor lady is SO HOT and could see myself being married to her. Which reading between the lines means bang her.

So as long as she trusts me and isnt insecure and afraid I should be cool with that right?


----------



## stacylong

Wow. I did not think I would get so many responses pretty much saying the same thing only a different perspective on how to deal with it. As far as Im concerned I know that she feels disconnected from me because I feel disconnected from her - only because of things that she does like I have mentioned in this post. I knew or know that in certain areas of love and relationships she has issues which she will acknowledge. Normally I would have addressed the issue with her right there on the spot and of course it may have led to a very bad evening. It seems that we have had alot of unpleasant talks lately and if I would have gotten on to her - which I felt I had every right to - and by the number of responses to my post - she would have just shut down. That would have led to nothing really being accomplished that night. I have told my counselor a number of things but this is one I will also tell. So far however the counselor is advising me to go the course of reaching in myself and finding a way to show her love even more. However, in this particular case I know this issue needs to be addressed. Im sure it will not be long before something comes up about me being too sensitive or not understanding her and when it does I will let her read this entire post and all of the responses. I often feel that whenever I tell her something she seems to take the "Thats my opinion approach but it does not mean I am right." Maybe there will be strength in numbers. I feel like if I was to confront her without any backup she would run to one of her coworkers or her friend and they would back her up and then it would be my problem.


----------



## jld

Middle of Everything said:


> So unless my wife is insecure and afraid, I should be able to say hypothetically "fantasize out loud and let my imagination run wild" and tell her say......I think the neighbor lady is SO HOT and could see myself being married to her. Which reading between the lines means bang her.
> 
> So as long as she trusts me and isnt insecure and afraid I should be cool with that right?


If she is the one in the relationship more able to not take things personally, and to be able to hear beyond your words to what is really in your heart, then it would likely be okay to express your thoughts transparently.

There are some women like that. My SIL was like that.


----------



## jld

stacylong said:


> Wow. I did not think I would get so many responses pretty much saying the same thing only a different perspective on how to deal with it. As far as Im concerned I know that she feels disconnected from me because I feel disconnected from her - only because of things that she does like I have mentioned in this post. I knew or know that in certain areas of love and relationships she has issues which she will acknowledge. Normally I would have addressed the issue with her right there on the spot and of course it may have led to a very bad evening. It seems that we have had alot of unpleasant talks lately and if I would have gotten on to her - which I felt I had every right to - and by the number of responses to my post - she would have just shut down. That would have led to nothing really being accomplished that night. I have told my counselor a number of things but this is one I will also tell. So far however the counselor is advising me to go the course of reaching in myself and finding a way to show her love even more. However, in this particular case I know this issue needs to be addressed. Im sure it will not be long before something comes up about me being too sensitive or not understanding her and when it does I will let her read this entire post and all of the responses. I often feel that whenever I tell her something she seems to take the "Thats my opinion approach but it does not mean I am right." Maybe there will be strength in numbers. I feel like if I was to confront her without any backup she would run to one of her coworkers or her friend and they would back her up and then it would be my problem.


Would you say she feels attacked? And that is why she runs to a friend or coworker for backup?


----------



## Catherine602

It's not a gender issue. In a relationship, if one person has a problem then they both do. OP. this one has an easy fix, out of respect for your feelings, she should not make comments about other men in your presence. She can do as she pleases when you are not around. 

If she continues after you tell her how you feel, let her know that you accept this as the new norm of the relationship. If you want to comment on the attractiveness of a woman, don't hold back. You will be helping her to grow her sense of empathy because she will feel what you feel. Empathy is a good human quality.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I find behavior like this to be terribly rude. My hb doesn't ogle women or talk about them in front of me but he talked about exes for years in ridiculously inappropriate ways. It finally stopped when I unloaded on him and gave him a big does of lots of my past, including the huge c0ck on my first.

Not so nice when you're on the receiving end is it?

Empathy really does go a long way, and I tend to think that if you doing it upsets her then her motivator for doing it to you isn't innocent. It's a way of keeping the emotional upper hand in the relationship and of trying to convey to you that she has options so you'd better keep that in mind.

Besides, if you'e spending that much time worrying about other men or women while married or committed that's energy you're not putting into your spouse.....and in some ways it's a form of keeping your options open. Ok, if you want to do that fine but expect your partner to do it too.

It's perfectly normal to notice others but if your focus isn't on your spouse that will take it's toll, and if you spend a lot of time worrying about others you're going to develop grass is greener syndrome since you're free to fantasize about other people without the burden of actually living with them.

I agree with Catherine about the new norm thing...tell her that since this is how things are you'll be sure to let her know who you'd be fvcking if you weren't settled with her. If she protests ask her why it's ok for her and not for you.....you can either both respect each other or you can both have a free for all.


----------



## jdawg2015

OP, follow the advice of those who have ACTUALLY done what were telling you to do.

In this case your wife clearly lacks empathy for you when she says these things. No man or woman wants to here their spouse emphasizing another member of the opposite sex, and definitely not with regularity. This is one of those, "you just don't go there" type of things. Your wife is not sending the rare, wow that guy must pull in the ladies comment. She's crossing a line IMO with the depth of the comments.

So, when this happens you need to poke her in the eye with it. It's the MOST effective way to get the message across. Why, because she does not like when you do it. Psychology 101.

If you've talked to her and she continues to do it, mirror it. Trust me, this will work. Mention things like how nice her legs are, "I bet those are some nice smooth legs to rub". Then when she *****es act stupid and say, "what, you comment about men all the time..." Couple hits of the hammer with this and she'll get tired of the sore thumb.






jld said:


> I disagree with all of that. Sounds fear-based to me.
> 
> I think she is just fantasizing out loud, letting her imagination run wild. She does it because she trusts him. Or trusted him.
> 
> I think he is going to regret shutting her down . . . when he could have just laughed and teased her about it from time to time. That could have led to some great sex.


----------



## jdawg2015

Yup.

Mirroring is the ONLY effective tool that gets the message across in cases of a spouse with no empathy.

OP, see the pattern? Those that have actually done this are telling you it works:wink2:



lifeistooshort said:


> I find behavior like this to be terribly rude. My hb doesn't ogle women or talk about them in front of me but he talked about exes for years in ridiculously inappropriate ways. It finally stopped when I unloaded on him and gave him a big does of lots of my past, including the huge c0ck on my first.
> 
> Not so nice when you're on the receiving end is it?
> 
> Empathy really does go a long way, and I tend to think that if you doing it upsets her then her motivator for doing it to you isn't innocent. It's a way of keeping the emotional upper hand in the relationship and of trying to convey to you that she has options so you'd better keep that in mind.
> 
> Besides, if you'e spending that much time worrying about other men or women while married or committed that's energy you're not putting into your spouse.....and in some ways it's a form of keeping your options open. Ok, if you want to do that fine but expect your partner to do it too.
> 
> It's perfectly normal to notice others but if your focus isn't on your spouse that will take it's toll, and if you spend a lot of time worrying about others you're going to develop grass is greener syndrome since you're free to fantasize about other people without the burden of actually living with them.
> 
> I agree with Catherine about the new norm thing...tell her that since this is how things are you'll be sure to let her know who you'd be fvcking if you weren't settled with her. If she protests ask her why it's ok for her and not for you.....you can either both respect each other or you can both have a free for all.


----------



## straightshooter

Well, it is obvious now the first thing you need to do is fire the idiot you are paying for advice.

You have a wife who is slobbering and gushing about other men in your face, going out as "bait" for other men with her single girlfriend, and this moron is telling you to be more loving .

My guess is when you find out she is banging other men, this same clown will tell you to woo her back, shower her with love, and tell her how nice she looks when she leaves to go see her boyfriend.

Your wife is showing you about as much respect as you would a ****roach, and when you object bullying you by getting angry. And you my friend are taking it and getting advice to keep taking it.

I'd place my money that you will soon be posting a thread in the Coping With Infidelity section.

It's time to set some boundaries and tell her if she wants to walk around with her tongue out drooling about other men she is free to do that as a single woman.


----------



## larry.gray

OliviaG said:


> I really think that you are not thinking this idea through. If you found out tomorrow that Dug did occasionally entertain these sorts of thoughts (which it is extremely likely that he does, and it is also extremely likely that he's sensible enough never to tell you about them), then I doubt that you'd break up your children's home because of it.


If he's straight and isn't devoid of testosterone, I guarantee he thinks this way sometimes. 

I'm the same way BTW. Only the closest guy friends have heard my internal thoughts about a random woman walking by. Anyone else, certainly anyone close to my wife is never going to hear me say anything. They're not going to see me even notice another woman. To do so is rude, crass, hurtful and disrespectful of my wife. I love my wife too much to ever hurt her that way. And remember folks, this is the OP's wife caring more about her insecurities than the hurt to the OP. She knows it hurts, but doesn't care.

I chose to put the rational part of my brain ahead of the primal thoughts. But that just means ahead, not banish the primal thoughts. I've learned to look like a woman does. Step one; look to see who's watching me. Step two, leer quickly and stop. Repeat as needed. That works even better if you stand right behind your wife >

If a woman wants a good education on this, just watch a guy in the reflection of a window. He's not going to know you're watching him, and will be looking in a way to really surprise you.


----------



## larry.gray

*Deidre* said:


> Can’t help but think if OP were female, and stated all of this, many here would be telling her to start snooping asap…bet he’s cheating, etc etc
> 
> But, because he’s a guy, some of the responses are for him to stop being insecure and to appreciate his wife’s ‘’transparency’’ about the guy at work.
> 
> Interdasting.


They're not going to let you into the glossy posse after that post.


----------



## larry.gray

OliviaG said:


> I guess it's possible that he doesn't but I'd find it easier to believe that he does occasionally have those lusting thoughts but he's wise enough to keep them to himself. I would never be able to drag such an admission from my own husband either, because he's a smart guy and would see immediately that there is no upside to sharing anything like that with me.


Damn it! When I hit the like button twice, it un-likes the post. This one is deserving of 12 likes from me.

And for the record, I'd lie if my wife asked this too. One thing this has demonstrated is that Doug isn't an idiot.


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> I have a friend who has been married 25 years who went to counseling the first year with her husband. Some people get their problems out of the way straight off.


The first year we were married we only slept, worked, ate and had sex. We never had time to argue, let alone take the time to go to counseling.


----------



## jdawg2015

Completely unlrelated topics.

She's not being open and transparent. She's showing subconscious thought and verbalizing it to the point of making her husband upset. And you think it's a good thing? Really??? 



jld said:


> Is a man's holding the door for a woman hypocrisy and a double standard, too?
> 
> OP, I think her transparency with you is a sign of great trust in you. Feel proud of that--you earned it.


----------



## Holland

Behaviour that undermines your spouse is counterproductive, there is no possible reason that an emotionally happy and healthy spouse would deliberately try to hurt their partner.

OP I agree with those that say give her a dose of her own behaviour but just be careful that you don't go overboard and cause yourself even more problems. 

The reality is that the world is full of gorgeous men but I do my perving on my own time. In our home we both understand that we will often see people that are attractive but respect and love for each is paramount, hurting each other is not acceptable.

JLD I don't buy into the theory that the OPs wife's behaviour is a sign of trust in him, it sounds more like deliberate nastiness. In my world trust looks more like this "I find men is business suits a real turn on, you my Love are sexy as hell in that business suit". So he knows I have blood running through my veins, he knows I have a thing for men in suits but he also knows he is the King of men is suits.


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> I disagree with all of that. Sounds fear-based to me.
> 
> I think she is just fantasizing out loud, letting her imagination run wild. She does it because she trusts him. Or trusted him.
> 
> I think he is going to regret shutting her down . . . when he could have just laughed and teased her about it from time to time. That could have led to some great sex.


Yeah, I can see the conversation right now:

H: Haha honey, remember that time you had another guy lined up for marriage if I wasn't in the picture, that was HILLarious.

W: Yeah, he was hot. If only that mixed marriage thing wasn't a roadblock. Don't worry though, there will always be other hot guys. I have another business meeting coming up in a few weeks, and am very hopeful I can finally meet "The One".

H: That is awesome, you go girl! I am so turned on right now being another number in the line at the deli, let's f$ck

This would be an awesome story to to tell the kids, grandkids, relive on anniversaries, etc...


----------



## AliceA

I wouldn't do it. If DH did it to me though, then I'd let it fly.

example:

Him: "Ooh, she has an nice rack!"
Me: "Not as freaking awesome as the bulge I saw in a guys pants the other day, wow, he could show a woman a good time!"

and this is why I don't have these sorts of problems, lol.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Very interesting thread. I've reconsidered my post. I do think part of it is correct. I think she is with a toxic friend and heading for trouble of some kind if you don't put a stop to it. Yes, I thought that when I posted, but I've been conditioned by my second ex that tit for tat style handling of these things is inappropriate. I've thought it is as childish as what she is doing. 

However, it can be somewhat direct if done with proper timing. Waiting a month after her reactions to a man and then doing it would seem ineffective and send the wrong message, like you approve and are participating. She might not even connect the two incidents.

I still think she is shyt testing to some extent and I believe there is much more to this. 

I believe I posted that she is probably getting horny talking with the toxic friend since it's like a romance novel to her. She is thinking about these things. 

She's simply being rude and doesn't understand manners, respect and empathy? Seems unlikely. I guess it's possible. 

There is still a part of me that wants to say she wants you to be a bit more aggressive. I can't seem to shake that "feeling".


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> I disagree with all of that. Sounds fear-based to me.
> 
> I think she is just fantasizing out loud, letting her imagination run wild. She does it because she trusts him. Or trusted him.
> 
> I think he is going to regret shutting her down . . . when he could have just laughed and teased her about it from time to time. That could have led to some great sex.


Or she does it because she is taking him and their relationship for granted, and I personally wouldn't want to have sex with someone who got all horned up thinking about and talking about someone else.


----------



## Hicks

Women need security within their marriage.

Men, being human also need security. We all know that our woman could get sex on demand at any time with any man she encounters. Men do need a basic level of security from their wife that no, she won't do this. And her comments undermine OP's security within the marriage.


----------



## *Deidre*

I disagree with people who think she is fantasizing out loud, or actually wanting to act on things. She is insecure…why are people saying the OP is insecure? She is the one that can’t bear to hear about how hot JLo is. Lol Sounds like the classic case of, can dish it out, but can’t take it. Her actions stem from insecurity. She is not happy with her body, she has said so. She sounds insecure and says things to make her husband insecure. It could be something for them to work on, but all the good sex in the world won’t cure your partner’s insecurities.


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> I disagree with people who think she is fantasizing out loud, or actually wanting to act on things. She is insecure…why are people saying the OP is insecure? She is the one that can’t bear to hear about how hot JLo is. Lol Sounds like the classic case of, can dish it out, but can’t take it. Her actions stem from insecurity. She is not happy with her body, she has said so. She sounds insecure and says things to make her husband insecure. It could be something for them to work on, but all the good sex in the world won’t cure your partner’s insecurities.


Remember he said he ignored her comments, gave her the massage, and the sex was great?

I think there is a lesson in there . . .


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> Remember he said he ignored her comments, gave her the massage, and the sex was great?
> 
> I think there is a lesson in there . . .


Yup, if everything was so great the OP wouldn't be here ....


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> I disagree with people who think she is fantasizing out loud, or actually wanting to act on things. She is insecure…why are people saying the OP is insecure? She is the one that can’t bear to hear about how hot JLo is. Lol Sounds like the classic case of, can dish it out, but can’t take it. Her actions stem from insecurity. She is not happy with her body, she has said so. She sounds insecure and says things to make her husband insecure. It could be something for them to work on, but all the good sex in the world won’t cure your partner’s insecurities.


Keep in mind too, I think there was mention that the OP is seeking counseling. How about the idea that the OPs W knows that he may be a little fragile mentally, and she is playing off that? If that is the case, that is rather fd up.


----------



## *Deidre*

jld said:


> Remember he said he ignored her comments, gave her the massage, and the sex was great?
> 
> I think there is a lesson in there . . .


She can ignore his comments too. lol Why do you feel it's okay for her to treat him any way she wishes, but he needs to walk on eggshells, sparing her feelings? lol


----------



## samyeagar

*Deidre* said:


> She can ignore his comments too. lol Why do you feel it's okay for her to treat him any way she wishes, but he needs to walk on eggshells, sparing her feelings? lol


It's jld...'nuff said.


----------



## jld

I did some googling of this topic this morning. There are basically two views out there, the same two as in this thread. Either people think it is a test/game, or it means complete trust. His wife says it means complete trust, and I believe her. I realize that not everyone does, though.

The answer, to me, is what OP already discovered: ignore her comments; basically just let them roll off his back. 

One article that said her behavior is testing/gaming said that the answer is to develop his inner security and not let those comments get to him. Showing that you are impervious to her comments, if you can truly become that, will make her feel secure in you, OP, according to that article. 

The only other option is to tell her she cannot share those thoughts with you, because it is too hurtful. Just realize you are putting a lot of responsibility on her for keeping you emotionally safe. Putting that responsibility on anyone but yourself is going to leave you vulnerable.


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> I did some googling of this topic this morning. There are basically two views out there, the same two as in this thread. Either people think it is a test/game, or it means complete trust. His wife says it means complete trust, and I believe her. I realize that not everyone does, though.
> 
> The answer, to me, is what OP already discovered: ignore her comments; basically just let them roll off his back.
> 
> One article that said her behavior is testing/gaming said that the answer is to develop his inner security and not let those comments get to him. Showing that you are impervious to her comments, if you can truly become that, will make her feel secure in you, OP, according to that article.
> 
> The only other option is to tell her she cannot share those thoughts with you, because it is too hurtful. Just realize you are putting a lot of responsibility on her for keeping you emotionally safe. Putting that responsibility on anyone but yourself is going to leave you vulnerable.


I think the difference many people here have, it is one thing to open up and trust your SO. It is another thing to say things that are meant to hurt, disrespect the marriage. It is funny how you seem to acknowledge what the SO says would hurt b/c you yourself said you could not handle hearing something like that, yet you advocate that the OP should just roll with it. If you truly believed what you are saying, you would have no issues with Dug saying things like this to you. Talk about hypocrisy ...


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> She can ignore his comments too. lol Why do you feel it's okay for her to treat him any way she wishes, but he needs to walk on eggshells, sparing her feelings? lol


She absolutely can. Anyone, male or female, who is able to not take things personally, is tapping into a powerful source of inner strength. 

The only other option is to rely on others to make us feel safe. And that can be risky.

He does not need to follow my advice. We are all just offering our opinions here. If we all thought the same way, these convos would be boring.


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> I think the difference many people here have, it is one thing to open up and trust your SO. It is another thing to say things that are meant to hurt, disrespect the marriage. It is funny how you seem to acknowledge what the SO says would hurt b/c you yourself said you could not handle hearing something like that, yet you advocate that the OP should just roll with it. If you truly believed what you are saying, you would have no issues with Dug saying things like this to you. Talk about hypocrisy ...


Dug does not have these feelings. He is not secretly attracted to other women but just not telling me. 

But when our son was diagnosed with cancer, he cried in front of me. That really scared me. I had never seen him cry before. 

But it was reality. I had to see what scared me: my husband's sadness and fear that our son would die. It heightened my own grief and fear. 

But it was reality and reality has to be faced.


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> Dug does not have these feelings. He is not secretly attracted to other women but just not telling me.
> 
> But when our son was diagnosed with cancer, he cried in front of me. That really scared me. I had never seen him cry before.
> 
> But it was reality. I had to see what scared me: my husband's sadness and fear that our son would die. It heightened my own grief and fear.
> 
> But it was reality and reality has to be faced.


I am truly sorry you had to deal with that, I can only imagine how difficult that was/is to deal with, so my deepest sympathies there.

... has nothing to do with the thread or points being made though.


----------



## DayOne

EllisRedding said:


> ... has nothing to do with the thread or points being made though.


This.


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> I am truly sorry you had to deal with that, I can only imagine how difficult that was/is to deal with, so my deepest sympathies there.
> 
> ... has nothing to do with the thread or points being made though.


Thank you, Ellis. And it absolutely has to do with it.

We all see/hear things from our partner that we would rather not. We can demand that they not show them to us because it makes us uncomfortable in some way. Or we can accept their reality without judgment. And without letting it mean something about us.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> Thank you, Ellis. And it absolutely has to do with it.
> 
> We all see/hear things from our partner that we would rather not. We can demand that they not show them to us because it makes us uncomfortable in some way. Or we can accept their reality without judgment. And without letting it mean something about us.


And there are a lot of things you would rather not see from dug, and has been proven, there are things that are there, that are kept hidden from you. Case in point is him crying. You were so shaken because you believed that was something that did not exist in him, yet it did. He just kept it hidden from you, and slipped. That leads to the possibility that there are other things you are blissfully unaware of that he keeps hidden from you, which by the logic in this thread, he does not trust you.


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> And there are a lot of things you would rather not see from dug, and has been proven, there are things that are there, that are kept hidden from you. Case in point is him crying. You were so shaken because you believed that was something that did not exist in him, yet it did. He just kept it hidden from you, and slipped. That leads to the possibility that there are other things you are blissfully unaware of that he keeps hidden from you, which by the logic in this thread, he does not trust you.


He did not hide anything from me. He just had no reason to cry before. 

He was busy with cycling and another activity last night. Tonight he should be able to join the thread.


----------



## Blondilocks

She trusts him with her ramblings about other men so the fact that those ramblings are disruptive to the marriage is irrelevant. She gets a thrill from telling her husband that she fantasizes about other men taking his job. Maybe he doesn't want her to trust him so much?

The best thing you can do (and, yes, it is cruel) is to tell her that you don't think fantasy man goes for fat chicks. Turn around and walk away. She'll stop coming to you for her ego boost. She'll be hurt and probably won't talk to you for awhile; but, is that a downside?


----------



## larry.gray

There is something I haven't noticed someone bringing up. These comments can be on a spectrum of likelyhood of an affair. 

The OP is under a threat of an ass beating if he tried to approach Jayo, let alone talk to her. Worse are people you might barely have a chance with. Worse still are comments about people you have a real possiblity od an affair with.

Some people think this is about the OP's ego. How about the fact that it erodes his trust in her. 

OP's wife is in that category. Any woman has a very real chance with her cowerkers. It is pushing the edge of bad marital boundaries.


----------



## jld

Blondilocks said:


> She trusts him with her ramblings about other men so the fact that those ramblings are disruptive to the marriage is irrelevant. She gets a thrill from telling her husband that she fantasizes about other men taking his job. Maybe he doesn't want her to trust him so much?
> 
> The best thing you can do (and, yes, it is cruel) is to tell her that you don't think fantasy man goes for fat chicks. Turn around and walk away. She'll stop coming to you for her ego boost. She'll be hurt and probably won't talk to you for awhile; but, is that a downside?


Do you want to encourage intimacy, or resentment?


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> There is something I haven't noticed someone bringing up. These comments can be on a spectrum of likelyhood of an affair.
> 
> The OP is under a threat of an ass beating if he tried to approach Jayo, let alone talk to her. Worse are people you might barely have a chance with. Worse still are comments about people you have a real possiblity od an affair with.
> 
> Some people think this is about the OP's ego. How about the fact that it erodes his trust in her.
> 
> OP's wife is in that category. Any woman has a very real chance with her cowerkers. It is pushing the edge of bad marital boundaries.


Transparency is a common demand of BSs after discovery. This wife is giving him transparency right now, right upfront, without even being asked.

An "ass beating"? OP, does she seem that powerful to you?


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> He was busy with cycling and another activity last night. Tonight he should be able to join the thread.


There is absolutely nothing he can say that will dissuade us from thinking he is lying to you. He's a smart man. He's never going to admit it here where you are watching.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> Transparency is a common demand of BSs after discovery. This wife is giving him transparency right now, right upfront, without even being asked.
> 
> An "ass beating"? OP, does she seem that powerful to you?



She is very weak and lacks self control.


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> An "ass beating"? OP, does she seem that powerful to you?


I never gave any thought about power. I'm only aware of the fact that any celebrity has personal security people better trained and physically stronger than I. Since I have no designs on personal contact, I have no need to dwell on it.


----------



## Blondilocks

jld said:


> Do you want to encourage intimacy, or resentment?


The OP is already seething with resentment - hence, his counselor and their attitude of 'love her out of it'.

He needs to shut that crap down like yesterday. With time, he may be able to convince himself that she does want to be married to him.

JLD, you have to realize that every time you call your husband to back you up, the strength in your argument diminishes. Your husband only posts here to make you happy. So, make him happy and stop calling him to post on a board that he has no interest in.


----------



## jld

Blondilocks said:


> The OP is already seething with resentment - hence, his counselor and their attitude of 'love her out of it'.
> 
> He needs to shut that crap down like yesterday. With time, he may be able to convince himself that she does want to be married to him.
> 
> JLD, you have to realize that every time you call your husband to back you up, the strength in your argument diminishes. Your husband only posts here to make you happy. So, make him happy and stop calling him to post on a board that he has no interest in.


He could end up, and likely already is, creating resentment in her, too. Double whammy.

I called on Dug so he could answer for himself, not to help me.


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> I never gave any thought about power. I'm only aware of the fact that any celebrity has personal security people better trained and physically stronger than I. Since I have no designs on personal contact, I have no need to dwell on it.


I thought you were talking about OP's wife.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> He could end up, and likely already is, creating resentment in her, too. Double whammy.
> 
> *I called on Dug so he could answer for himself*, not to help me.


One would think if he had any real interest, he would have taken the initiative himself rather than to appease you with what would likely be an utterly predictable response.


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> One would think if he had any real interest, he would have taken the initiative himself rather than to appease you with what would likely be an utterly predictable response.


Priorities. He was doing other stuff last night.


----------



## Marduk

*Deidre* said:


> I disagree with people who think she is fantasizing out loud, or actually wanting to act on things. She is insecure…why are people saying the OP is insecure? She is the one that can’t bear to hear about how hot JLo is. Lol Sounds like the classic case of, can dish it out, but can’t take it. Her actions stem from insecurity. She is not happy with her body, she has said so. She sounds insecure and says things to make her husband insecure. It could be something for them to work on, but all the good sex in the world won’t cure your partner’s insecurities.


My wife once told me that due to age and me being more healthy, she sometimes worried that I had become "the hot one" in the relationship, and she had less power as a consequence. And sometimes she would act out trying to regain power in the relationship.

It took her a long time to give up trying to regain and trust that I would just give it to her whenever she wanted it.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Dug does not have these feelings. He is not secretly attracted to other women but just not telling me.


LOL!

Bull****. Let me take him to Vegas for a weekend and then try to tell you that with a straight face.

He likely _avoids contact_ with other women. Which is a very different thing.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I did some googling of this topic this morning. There are basically two views out there, the same two as in this thread. Either people think it is a test/game, or it means complete trust. His wife says it means complete trust, and I believe her. I realize that not everyone does, though.


What difference does it make. Her perception does not affect him.


----------



## EllisRedding

Blondilocks said:


> The OP is already seething with resentment - hence, his counselor and their attitude of 'love her out of it'.
> 
> *He needs to shut that crap down like yesterday. With time, he may be able to convince himself that she does want to be married to him.*


Exactly, if OP just "rolls with it" all he is doing in encouraging her behavior which is that of a little child. Any time she doesn't get what she wants, she will just whip out her list of potential suitors so OP can cower back in line. There is no strength in him just sitting aside and watching this all happen.

If the OPs W really wanted to encourage intimacy, she would not be telling her H about all the other hot men she wants to wed. How anyone could see otherwise is beyond me.

It is clear the OPs W does not have respect for his opinion. As he stated, when he brings something up her response is "Thats my opinion approach but it does not mean I am right." All she is doing is invalidating his opinion. I honestly have no idea why the OP would want to be married to someone who a) appears to take joy in playing mind games and b) fantasizes about what life would be like with other men. Next time she brings it up either throw it back at her as others have stated, or encourage her to pursue the other man she is so interested in. Call her out on her $hit tests and you will see the real person.


----------



## sparrow555

stacylong said:


> Well that is what she has told me exactly. That she tells me these things because she loves me so much and trusts me. However If I were to do the same it would not matter how respectful I am when I say it it would hurt her feelings and she would not talk to me.


Start following local Instagram/fitness models and share pics which you think are good with her. 

You know, because you trust her and want to share your tastes with her. keep doing it. 

That is the only way she is going to stop. She doesn;t realize what she is doing or she does not care. Maybe this way, she can develop some empathy.


----------



## samyeagar

I think there is a possibility that there really isn't anything malicious beyond just not stopping and thinking about the words she is saying, and very poorly conveying what she is actually thinking. Sort of like how some people saying things like "I hate so and so" or "I'd like to kill them" when they are angry. They don't mean those things literally, just have very poor control, and limited ability to convey thoughts and feelings through words. It wouldn't surprise me at all if she in fact says those very things from time to time...over stating feelings because they don't know any other way to do it, or to just keep them to themselves.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> LOL!
> 
> Bull****. Let me take him to Vegas for a weekend and then try to tell you that with a straight face.
> 
> He likely _avoids contact_ with other women. Which is a very different thing.


His boss took him to a strip club once. Did not do anything for him. He really is just focused on me.

And for sure, he is not seeking that sort of thing out, either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

*Deidre* said:


> I disagree with people who think she is fantasizing out loud, or actually wanting to act on things. She is insecure…why are people saying the OP is insecure? She is the one that can’t bear to hear about how hot JLo is. Lol Sounds like the classic case of, can dish it out, but can’t take it. Her actions stem from insecurity. She is not happy with her body, she has said so. She sounds insecure and says things to make her husband insecure. It could be something for them to work on, *but all the good sex in the world won’t cure your partner’s insecurities.*


But it will give you something to do while they figure it out. :grin2:


----------



## samyeagar

Yeswecan said:


> But it will give you something to do while they figure it out. :grin2:


If you're wanting sex for the sake of sex, if simply getting laid is the end goal. That is my problem with the "doesn't matter where they get their appetite, so long as they eat at home" mindset, which is what jld was advocating when she pointed out how ignoring the comment, giving a massage leading to great sex.

Given the circumstances here, I wouldn't want to have sex, let alone have great sex. The sex in and of itself is not the goal for me.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> His boss took him to a strip club once. Did not do anything for him. He really is just focused on me.
> 
> And for sure, he is not seeking that sort of thing out, either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sure. Because everything that attracts him to you physically does not exist in other women. 

You're smarter than that, jld.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Sure. Because everything that attracts him to you physically does not exist in other women.
> 
> You're smarter than that, jld.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe what he tells me, Marduk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> If you're wanting sex for the sake of sex, if simply getting laid is the end goal. That is my problem with the "doesn't matter where they get their appetite, so long as they eat at home" mindset, which is what jld was advocating when she pointed out how ignoring the comment, giving a massage leading to great sex.
> 
> Given the circumstances here, I wouldn't want to have sex, let alone have great sex. The sex in and of itself is not the goal for me.


I didn't know that is what I was saying.

He said the sex was great. I was just referring to his own satisfaction with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## *Deidre*

jld said:


> Dug does not have these feelings. He is not secretly attracted to other women but just not telling me.
> 
> But when our son was diagnosed with cancer, he cried in front of me. That really scared me. I had never seen him cry before.
> 
> But it was reality. I had to see what scared me: my husband's sadness and fear that our son would die. It heightened my own grief and fear.
> 
> But it was reality and reality has to be faced.


We are individuals, first. It's okay if your husband doesn't reveal to you every thought he has.


----------



## *Deidre*

marduk said:


> My wife once told me that due to age and me being more healthy, she sometimes worried that I had become "the hot one" in the relationship, and she had less power as a consequence. And sometimes she would act out trying to regain power in the relationship.


I suspect is a similar case with the OP and his wife.


----------



## NobodySpecial

*Deidre* said:


> We are individuals, first. It's okay if your husband doesn't reveal to you every thought he has.


It was not until later in our marriage that my husband could say something like do you think I am going to walk into that trap with a wink. I am guessing that is never going to be a safe place for Dug to go.

(Sorry for the typo.)


----------



## Acoa

If it's okay or not to point out other folks you are attracted to really depends on the situation.

In general talking about types, and likes and what styles of clothing you find attractive is healthy and can be fun. But only if infrequent, and as others have mentioned done more with an eye to what you see on TV or in magazines. Sharing a celebrity crush is fine, as long as the person doesn't have some odd unhealthy fixation on that celeb. 

Talking about people in your social circles is a bit more tenuous. If it's infrequent and integrated into a more natural discussion about looks and attraction, probably okay. Or if said crush has given some signals of being open to an approach, I may let my mate in on it just so they can help run interference. It would be dangerous to have someone you are attracted to in your social circle if you think they are also attracted to you. 

If the person is bringing up these 'attractive others' frequently and without warning or much 'social etiquette'. That seems unhealthy. Like they are trying to provoke jealousy. You mentioned a bit of double standard where she would get angry if you shared. This seems like a situation where she is modeling how she wants you to respond. Or she is just that insecure. Insecurity breeds all sorts of dysfunction.


----------



## imtamnew

jld said:


> His boss took him to a strip club once. Did not do anything for him. He really is just focused on me.
> 
> And for sure, he is not seeking that sort of thing out, either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My friends once took me Hooters.
I was disgusted by the experience.

My wife had nothing to do with this experience. It was what those girls had allowed themselves to become for a few dollars that kicked me in my gut.
I am not saying they were "working girls". Just the fact that they need to turn to the baser instincts in men for a living.


----------



## rzmpf

jld said:


> I did some googling of this topic this morning. There are basically two views out there, the same two as in this thread. Either people think it is a test/game, or it means complete trust. His wife says it means complete trust, and I believe her. I realize that not everyone does, though.


I don't think it means complete trust, it's the expectation of complete trust. She wants him to not be hurt by her comments because she expects him to trust her so much that there is no reason to be hurt by them. If he is hurting it means he doesn't trust her and how can that be?

On the other hand her reaction to his JLo comment shows that she does not trust him, at least not fully. He basically could not give a right answer to her question. If he didn't answer she would assume he finds her hot and be pissed, if he said he doesn't find her attractive she wouldn't have believed him and would be pissed and he answered honestly and she was pissed. 
And this about a practially unobtainable woman and while she is talking about her coworkers and ordinary men.

It's a weird combination of projections, insecurities, validation and playing games to test him and the relationship between them. If there was complete trust at least from her side, she wouldn't give a s... about his thoughts about JLO's appearance.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I believe what he tells me, Marduk.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really?

Of all the women on earth who currently exist... There is ONE woman he is attracted to?

And he just happened to find that one woman?

What are the odds of that? Zero.

And what are the odds that he is biologically hard coded to only find you attractive?

Zero.

The human race would soon be dead if what he were telling you is true, actually was true.

It cannot be true.

He's either protecting you, or is so good at self censoring his behaviour that he doesn't allow it to be true.

But what is not true is if I put him in front of a line up of the top 1% attractive women on earth that he would not have a biological response to that attraction, much as he tried to fight it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Really?
> 
> Of all the women on earth who currently exist... There is ONE woman he is attracted to?
> 
> And he just happened to find that one woman?
> 
> What are the odds of that? Zero.
> 
> And what are the odds that he is biologically hard coded to only find you attractive?
> 
> Zero.
> 
> The human race would soon be dead if what he were telling you is true, actually was true.
> 
> It cannot be true.
> 
> He's either protecting you, or is so good at self censoring his behaviour that he doesn't allow it to be true.
> 
> But what is not true is if I put him in front of a line up of the top 1% attractive women on earth that he would not have a biological response to that attraction, much as he tried to fight it.


He uses careful language like "focus". He is not stupid. But he also probably does not run around thinking, man look at her, in his fore brain. DH describes it as sort of brain background noise most of the time.


----------



## Blondilocks

Whether Dug has blinders on when it comes to women is irrelevant. He knows what jld needs and provides it and she chooses to believe him. It works for their marriage. 

I never cared if my husband was enchanted by a woman's beauty just as long as he kept his mouth shut about it. He wasn't blind and I wasn't stupid. You can't leave the house without seeing a drop-dead gorgeous woman.


----------



## SunCMars

rzmpf;15208865
It's a weird combination of projections said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> She is trying to make her husband jealous. She is very insecure. She wants him to know that there are other men "out there" that would meet her needs and qualifications.
> 
> 
> One thing: When she commented on the handsome man at work, she went into detail, he was mixed race, her mother would not accept him due to prejudice, she would grab him in a minute if she were not married. This is a lot of detail. She is obsessing over men and their attractiveness. Why is this?
> 
> She lives in a fantasy world. She daydreams continuously. Her normal thinking comes from the fog off a warm ocean. Her subconscious boundaries and her dreamscape has her in the arms of so many good looking men.
> 
> Today it is virtual reality, just words and thoughts. Tomorrow may very well bring sensual reality up close, real close and steamy.
> 
> First words, then Action Jackson, at her door.
> 
> She is prime meat for a lurking POSOM. Danger...ding, ding.


----------



## 2ntnuf

And there's plenty of horny POSOM's looking to be a ****.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes

You put a 20 year old au pair girl in the house - and she's hitting him with a sexual vibe - and physically he's going to react. 

Doesn't mean he will start an affair. Does mean he will feel desire. 

People are very wishful - in this area. 

Last week, M2 was making some comments about infidelity. She says something to the effect that: I've never even desired another man, except a little bit that one time. 

ROTFL. A little bit. She was half out of her mind with lust - for almost a full year. 

It used to make me mad - when she'd minimize. Not anymore. 

I just said matter of factly: you felt intense desire for a while - and that's ok - doesn't mean you don't love me. Does show you have extraordinary self control. Feel good about that. I do. 




NobodySpecial said:


> He uses careful language like "focus". He is not stupid. But he also probably does not run around thinking, man look at her, in his fore brain. DH describes it as sort of brain background noise most of the time.


----------



## AliceA

samyeagar said:


> And there are a lot of things you would rather not see from dug, and has been proven, there are things that are there, that are kept hidden from you. Case in point is him crying. You were so shaken because you believed that was something that did not exist in him, yet it did. He just kept it hidden from you, and slipped. That leads to the possibility that there are other things you are blissfully unaware of that he keeps hidden from you, which by the logic in this thread, he does not trust you.


Or he just doesn't feel the need to cry much... there's my logic.


----------



## MEM2020

Blond,

Maybe - the way this looks to me - isn't typical. 

My marriage is amplified by desire - not based on it. On a 10 scale - M2 craves my:
company: 9.5
touch: 9
sex: 6

Why I'm not threatened by - the idea of her feeling desire for someone else. Of course she does. So what. 




Blondilocks said:


> Whether Dug has blinders on when it comes to women is irrelevant. He knows what jld needs and provides it and she chooses to believe him. It works for their marriage.
> 
> I never cared if my husband was enchanted by a woman's beauty just as long as he kept his mouth shut about it. He wasn't blind and I wasn't stupid. You can't leave the house without seeing a drop-dead gorgeous woman.


----------



## bluezone

GusPolinski said:


> There's nothing wrong w/ expressing attraction to others -- especially celebrities or other people *w/ whom you're unlikely to EVER have any sort of actual contact *-- if done *in a tactful manner*.


OP...I agree with the above...pay special attention to the bolded parts. 

It's not hurtful if you say you think Jennifer Lopez is attractive, or your wife, for example says that some movie star is attractive, however...I would think if your wife is drooling over *someone in her work business meeting* and letting you know that...*THAT is hurtful*... because she could theoretically have a relationship with the co-worker. 

She can find a co-worker attractive, but she can also keep it to herself and not ACT on it. Just as you can find a co-worker attractive, but you don't run home and throw it in your wife's face.

And yes, the double standard isn't right either.


----------



## Steve1000

stacylong said:


> I am being too sensitive or should my wife be more tactful about how and when she expresses her attraction to other men to me? Or is it ever ok to openly talk about your attraction to another person with your spouse? I would really love to hear from men and women on this subject.


If I think that someone is attractive, I don't think about it enough to feel the need to tell anyone. It is just a fleeting moment. If my wife saw an attractive guy, I wouldn't care, but then again, I would care if she was still thinking about it 10 hours later.


----------



## EllisRedding

I say we do a test. Everyone here go home tonight and tell your SO about this hot co worker you met today and how you could really see marrying them. Report back tomorrow with your results :grin2:


----------



## MEM2020

Ellis,

Yes. This is different. I've seen this movie. Don't care for it. 

Daily proximity to someone you desire - is entirely different than the random sighting of someone at a theater or restaurant. Or even more remote - a movie star. 






EllisRedding said:


> I say we do a test. Everyone here go home tonight and tell your SO about this hot co worker you met today and how you could really see marrying them. Report back tomorrow with your results :grin2:


----------



## Steve1000

EllisRedding said:


> I say we do a test. Everyone here go home tonight and tell your SO about this hot co worker you met today and how you could really see marrying them. Report back tomorrow with your results :grin2:


Are you *sure* that nothing could possibly go wrong with this test? :laugh:


----------



## Blondilocks

MEM, I think we're on the same page here. It seems typical to me because it is typical to me. If a spouse gets their panties in a wad because somewhere out there is a person who your spouse might be attracted to, then they have problems. Because, I can guarantee that there are hundreds of thousands of people out there who might interest the spouse.


----------



## BetrayedDad

jld said:


> His boss took him to a strip club once. Did not do anything for him. He really is just focused on me.


Someone cue the twilight zone music....


----------



## 2ntnuf

BetrayedDad said:


> Someone cue the twilight zone music....


https://youtu.be/-b5aW08ivHU


----------



## Marduk

Blondilocks said:


> Whether Dug has blinders on when it comes to women is irrelevant. He knows what jld needs and provides it and she chooses to believe him. It works for their marriage.
> 
> I never cared if my husband was enchanted by a woman's beauty just as long as he kept his mouth shut about it. He wasn't blind and I wasn't stupid. You can't leave the house without seeing a drop-dead gorgeous woman.


I find myself simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing with you. 

I agree that if they both decide to shut their trap, they're good.

But if one doesn't shut up and then expects the other to shut up, you have a problem. 

And if both don't acknowledge reality, even in the abstract, you have a giant problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Yes
> 
> You put a 20 year old au pair girl in the house - and she's hitting him with a sexual vibe - and physically he's going to react.
> 
> Doesn't mean he will start an affair. Does mean he will feel desire.
> 
> People are very wishful - in this area.
> 
> Last week, M2 was making some comments about infidelity. She says something to the effect that: I've never even desired another man, except a little bit that one time.
> 
> ROTFL. A little bit. She was half out of her mind with lust - for almost a full year.
> 
> It used to make me mad - when she'd minimize. Not anymore.
> 
> I just said matter of factly: you felt intense desire for a while - and that's ok - doesn't mean you don't love me. Does show you have extraordinary self control. Feel good about that. I do.


You can't control who you're attracted to. 

You can control who you're going to allow yourself to be around, or what you're going to do with that attraction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Blond,
> 
> Maybe - the way this looks to me - isn't typical.
> 
> My marriage is amplified by desire - not based on it. On a 10 scale - M2 craves my:
> company: 9.5
> touch: 9
> sex: 6
> 
> Why I'm not threatened by - the idea of her feeling desire for someone else. Of course she does. So what.


I'd be hella worried about that. Not from an insecurity perspective, but from a sexual sunk cost fallacy perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## *Deidre*

Idk. At the end of the day, when you've tried your best...you have to just accept that maybe, just maybe...you married a jerk. And no amount of therapy, sex, compassion or anything else will change that jerk into a nice person. 

And it can be that simple.


----------



## tech-novelist

Blondilocks said:


> Whether Dug has blinders on when it comes to women is irrelevant. He knows what jld needs and provides it and she chooses to believe him. It works for their marriage.
> 
> I never cared if my husband was enchanted by a woman's beauty just as long as he kept his mouth shut about it. He wasn't blind and I wasn't stupid. You can't leave the house without seeing a drop-dead gorgeous woman.


Where do you live?


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Really?
> 
> Of all the women on earth who currently exist... There is ONE woman he is attracted to?
> 
> And he just happened to find that one woman?
> 
> What are the odds of that? Zero.
> 
> And what are the odds that he is biologically hard coded to only find you attractive?
> 
> Zero.
> 
> The human race would soon be dead if what he were telling you is true, actually was true.
> 
> It cannot be true.
> 
> He's either protecting you, or is so good at self censoring his behaviour that he doesn't allow it to be true.
> 
> But what is not true is if I put him in front of a line up of the top 1% attractive women on earth that he would not have a biological response to that attraction, much as he tried to fight it.


I am sure that if he had not met me, he would have met someone else and would be equally happy with her now. But he met me and is committed to me and that is pretty much the end of it.

He was not attracted to the women at that club. I specifically remember his commenting on it. No biological reaction. That is what he told me, and I have no reason to doubt him.


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,

Sorry. I don't understand what you mean. What sunk cost? 

Let me frame this - in a way that hopefully makes sense. M2 totally 'gets' reciprocity. So here's what that means in terms of sex.

Monogamy is every bit as much a responsibility as it is a commitment. She's responsible for ensuring that I don't regret my vow to forsake all others. 

And then - far as affairs go. I'll map our relative responses to a raw physiological analogy. M2 has an affair (me believing no way she is gone for good) I liken that to someone hitting my right hand (I'm a lefty) with a hammer - hard enough to break a bunch of bones. Very painful, but it fully heals in a few months. 

If I had an affair, would be like someone amputated M2's right arm at the shoulder (she's a righty). And then put the arm thru a meat grinder - precluding reattachment. 

She tells me almost daily that I'm an excellent partner. If she cheats, that's on her. It's not about me. 





marduk said:


> I'd be hella worried about that. Not from an insecurity perspective, but from a sexual sunk cost fallacy perspective.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 225985

tech-novelist said:


> Ok, so now we have more information about the real problem.
> 
> Which is her, not you.
> 
> She should lose the extra weight and then maybe she won't be so sensitive.


She tells OP she finds the guy at work to be Hot. Once she loses the extra weight, that guy will find her to be Hot. Plus she will have increased confidence to interact with that guy. Could be trouble.


----------



## MEM2020

Blond,

If you walked 100 women past me - who are around our age - about 20 of them would make the cut physically. They would be attractive enough to be physically acceptable. 

But if you asked me how many would make the cut behaviorally - as life partners - maybe 1. Because that person needs to be: 
- clever and quick witted and funny
- smart and organized and logical
- strong and tough and determined 
- trustworthy
- good at managing money, food, drugs, alcohol and exercise
- loves to read
- loves puzzles and patterns and so forth
- good in bed

Like I said - at most 1 in a 100. Raw physical attraction - isn't difficult. True compatibility - totally different. 




Blondilocks said:


> MEM, I think we're on the same page here. It seems typical to me because it is typical to me. If a spouse gets their panties in a wad because somewhere out there is a person who your spouse might be attracted to, then they have problems. Because, I can guarantee that there are hundreds of thousands of people out there who might interest the spouse.


----------



## *Deidre*

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> Sorry. I don't understand what you mean. What sunk cost?
> 
> Let me frame this - in a way that hopefully makes sense. M2 totally 'gets' reciprocity. So here's what that means in terms of sex.
> 
> Monogamy is every bit as much a responsibility as it is a commitment. She's responsible for ensuring that I don't regret my vow to forsake all others.
> 
> And then - far as affairs go. I'll map our relative responses to a raw physiological analogy. M2 has an affair (me believing no way she is gone for good) I liken that to someone hitting my right hand (I'm a lefty) with a hammer - hard enough to break a bunch of bones. Very painful, but it fully heals in a few months.
> 
> If I had an affair, would be like someone amputated M2's right arm at the shoulder (she's a righty). And then put the arm thru a meat grinder - precluding reattachment.
> 
> She tells me almost daily that I'm an excellent partner. If she cheats, that's on her. It's not about me.


So, in other words...you wouldn't care that much if your wife cheated on you (you'd get over it in a few months), but she would be in perpetual and prolonged agony if you cheated?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I am sure that if he had not met me, he would have met someone else and would be equally happy with her now. But he met me and is committed to me and that is pretty much the end of it.
> 
> He was not attracted to the women at that club. I specifically remember his commenting on it. No biological reaction. That is what he told me, and I have no reason to doubt him.


I once went to a crappy strip club and had no reaction either. 

I can buy that he's got discerning taste.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> Sorry. I don't understand what you mean. What sunk cost?
> 
> Let me frame this - in a way that hopefully makes sense. M2 totally 'gets' reciprocity. So here's what that means in terms of sex.
> 
> Monogamy is every bit as much a responsibility as it is a commitment. *She's responsible for ensuring that I don't regret my vow to forsake all others.*
> 
> And then - far as affairs go. I'll map our relative responses to a raw physiological analogy. M2 has an affair (me believing no way she is gone for good) I liken that to someone hitting my right hand (I'm a lefty) with a hammer - hard enough to break a bunch of bones. Very painful, but it fully heals in a few months.
> 
> If I had an affair, would be like someone amputated M2's right arm at the shoulder (she's a righty). And then put the arm thru a meat grinder - precluding reattachment.
> 
> She tells me almost daily that I'm an excellent partner. If she cheats, that's on her. It's not about me.



Can you expand on what you mean in that paragraph with bold text?

Not sure if you mean, if you cheat on her, or if you divorce her, it's her fault? Maybe both?


----------



## 225985

jld said:


> I think there would be more great relationships if people could hear everything without necessarily taking everything personally.


That is worth trying. I am going to tell my wife that I want to bang my attractive coworker. I will preface that discussion with "Don't take it personally but....". Wish me luck. :|


----------



## rzmpf

SunCMars said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> She is trying to make her husband jealous. She is very insecure. She wants him to know that there are other men "out there" that would meet her needs and qualifications.
> 
> 
> One thing: When she commented on the handsome man at work, she went into detail, he was mixed race, her mother would not accept him due to prejudice, she would grab him in a minute if she were not married. This is a lot of detail. She is obsessing over men and their attractiveness. Why is this?
> 
> She lives in a fantasy world. She daydreams continuously. Her normal thinking comes from the fog off a warm ocean. Her subconscious boundaries and her dreamscape has her in the arms of so many good looking men.
> 
> Today it is virtual reality, just words and thoughts. Tomorrow may very well bring sensual reality up close, real close and steamy.
> 
> First words, then Action Jackson, at her door.
> 
> She is prime meat for a lurking POSOM. Danger...ding, ding.


Exactly, she spent real time thinking about her fantasy marriage with hot-coworker-dude. Not a flirt, not a date, not sex, MARRIAGE. And the most striking problem about that marriage she comes up with is the racial intolerance of her family? Not that she doesn't know this guy and bases this solely on appearance?

Does she already know him better or at least wants to know him better and is projecting the hell on OP about forsaking their marriage for some hot piece of a$$?
I agree that it seems to be a very unstable situation, if some hot dude were to make a move, who knows what would happen.


----------



## Blondilocks

"Marduk,

Sorry. I don't understand what you mean. What sunk cost?"

Ditto. Please expand.


----------



## 2ntnuf

blueinbr said:


> That is worth trying. I am going to tell my wife that I want to bang my attractive coworker. I will preface that discussion with "Don't take it personally but....". Wish me luck. :|


Better yet, "Don't take it personally but, my attractive coworker wants to bang me".


----------



## jld

Why I Promised To Tell My Husband Everything


----------



## Blondilocks

MEM, not every cookie in the bakery is going to taste as good as it looks. When people marry for looks, they usually regret it. It's their personalities that mesh and make a marriage. Every one has to kiss a lot of frogs.


----------



## jld

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...cal-transparency-the-key-relationship-success


----------



## Blondilocks

tech-novelist said:


> Where do you live?



Southern California. Home of the sun-kist look and enhancements to suit your pleasure. All you have to do is come up with the sunshine tax.


----------



## Blondilocks

jld, give us a hint what you are referring to. The Huffpost is a rag that takes forever to load.


----------



## MEM2020

Deidre,
In what universe does having your hand broken by a hammer equate to - don't really care that much? 

It's a sincere question. I said it would fully heal. Didn't say it wouldn't hurt a lot. 

If you think about it, the physicality of an affair is your partner doing something they have ALREADY DONE with other folks before you two met. The real pain of an affair comes from - not the mechanics of it - but the intangibles. For MOST folks, an affair represents both a betrayal (which has already happened) AND a very real, and deep rooted fear of future loss. Loss of their partner. I have very little of that fear. I believe that the odds of M2 finding a more compatible life partner - are vanishingly small. 

Maybe part of this is a vast difference in viewpoint. I consider M2 a life partner. Not a possession. She considers me - a life partner who she possesses. This (her) viewpoint is not a gift - it's a curse. It causes her distress in many ways - large and small. 






*Deidre* said:


> So, in other words...you wouldn't care that much if your wife cheated on you (you'd get over it in a few months), but she would be in perpetual and prolonged agony if you cheated?


----------



## MEM2020

Blond,

Amen to that. 




Blondilocks said:


> MEM, not every cookie in the bakery is going to taste as good as it looks. When people marry for looks, they usually regret it. It's their personalities that mesh and make a marriage. Every one has to kiss a lot of frogs.


----------



## jld

It is worth loading, blondi. The illustration is nice, too.


----------



## 2ntnuf

jld said:


> Why I Promised To Tell My Husband Everything


I see what you are trying to get at. I just don't agree with it. 

She contradicts herself. 

Paraphrasing,she says she wants to tell the truth in all things. She believes in it whole-heartedly. She says even the smallest lies add up. 

She then goes on to say she doesn't mean things like hiding a birthday party plan.

I don't think telling all of everything is for the benefit of the relationship. I think it's to relieve guilt at the expense of the spouse. I don't think that is healthy at all for the relationship.

I don't think it's good to lie, either. I just think, unless someone is ready for the radical truth, it can hurt the relationship and that spouse, more than help. 

I do think everyone is different, and if that works in your marriage and makes it stronger, good for you.


----------



## MEM2020

Cheating is about lying. Not my thing. 

I'm not ok with a sexless marriage. M2 knows that. 

In a 'primal plus' world the way that plays out is simple. She'd connect with me at least once a week - open ended - solely to ensure that I was ok with that part of the marriage. Even if it wasn't doing much for her. 

We had a year like that. Cheating is a cowardly act of betrayal and back stabbing. Openly outsourcing - on an as needed basis - is simply a refusal to be forced into celibacy. Totally different. 

And FWIW - people's refusal to see the vast difference between the two is largely why:
- there are so many sexless marriages 
and
- so many cheaters 






2ntnuf said:


> Can you expand on what you mean in that paragraph with bold text?
> 
> Not sure if you mean, if you cheat on her, or if you divorce her, it's her fault? Maybe both?


----------



## jld

From the first article:

_"Of course, practicing Radical Honesty can be tough. It forces you to confront tough emotions head on. In a society that teaches us to avoid conflict as much as humanly possible, to make amends, smooth things over, and tell white lies, Radical Honesty is the opposite policy. It's all about diving headfirst into sticky situations in the name of love."_


----------



## bandit.45

Blondilocks said:


> "Marduk,
> 
> Sorry. I don't understand what you mean. What sunk cost?"
> 
> Ditto. Please expand.


The Sunk Cost Fallacy is a term to describe the obsessive need of continuing to invest in something that only provides very minimal returns at best over a long period of time, but because it is a high risk/ high yield investment you continue to keep investing, hoping year by year that you will eventually strike it rich, when in actuality you are pissing money out a porthole. 

It can refer to business investments as well as dysfunctional relationships.


----------



## Blondilocks

jld said:


> It is worth loading, blondi. The illustration is nice, too.


The 'illustration' is very nice. Don't forget to tell Dug that it got your motor running.>

The author mentions that radical honesty can be very hard to practice non-stop. My objection is sharing thoughts, feelings, urges that don't amount to a hill of beans. 

It also means that you're living in your head to a degree. Did I want to listen to my husband talk about his ten thousand thoughts, feelings and urges that he had that day? Hell no. That man was a talker (often times I would imagine I looked just like the nun in Airplane). 

While sharing all these most inner thoughts the time to communicate with your spouse has been usurped by nothing! Literally, nothing. Not to mention how utterly exhausting. Just shut up and let me sleep already.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I can see your points, but I strongly disagree. 



MEM11363 said:


> Cheating is about lying. Not my thing.
> 
> I'm not ok with a sexless marriage. M2 knows that.
> 
> In a 'primal plus' world the way that plays out is simple. She'd connect with me at least once a week - open ended - solely to ensure that I was ok with that part of the marriage. Even if it wasn't doing much for her.
> 
> We had a year like that. Cheating is a cowardly act of betrayal and back stabbing.


I agree about the lying and the cowardly act of cheating. Below is where I strongly disagree.



> Openly outsourcing - on an as needed basis - is simply a refusal to be forced into celibacy. Totally different.


I think outsourcing with consent is likely okay. Outsourcing without is cheating. 

There is nothing implicit. It's either up front or infidelity, plain and simple. 

Because, if it isn't up front, there must be lies. See your own words above on lying.



> And FWIW - people's refusal to see the vast difference between the two is largely why:
> - there are so many sexless marriages
> and
> - so many cheaters


Well, I think what you are implying is that it's okay to stray when your spouse is not giving you sex. I would have to say that's a moral decision and is going to be subjective.

I think I have stated what I believe are the differences or, similarities above.


----------



## Blondilocks

bandit.45 said:


> The Sunk Cost Fallacy is a term to describe the obsessive need of continuing to invest in something that only provides very minimal returns at best over a long period of time, but because it is a high risk/ high yield investment you continue to keep investing, hoping year by year that you will eventually strike it rich, when in actuality you are pissing money out a porthole.
> 
> It can refer to business investments as well as dysfunctional relationships.


Thanks, Bandit. It's so sad that relationships can be compared to a business model. But, whenever someone thinks that money will buy their partner's sexual favors then they can blame themselves.


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> Sorry. I don't understand what you mean. What sunk cost?


Sorry, don't have a ton of time but basically I'm looking at your wager. Which is essentially that the investment she's made in your relationship plus the fact that she gets emotional fulfillment leads you to think she will continue to choose monogamy with you.

One would surmise that if she thought you two were over, the first thing she'd look for is a guy that she can have a '9' level sexual relationship with because her tank is full, so to speak, with the rest.

Or, a NSA relationship in secret would bring her up to 9's easily across the board.

I'm talking in the abstract, of course, not your relationship in specific.

Although, if I were you, I'd seek to make that sexual 6 a 9.


----------



## Duguesclin

I see that I have been the subject of some posts here. Let me ask you all a question:

Your 25 year old daughter is beautiful. Or your son's girl friend is stunning. Do you feel lust?

If the answer is no, let's look at the twin sister of your son's girl friend that just moved in next door. Is lust acceptable in this case?

So when is it acceptable to lust over a woman and when is it not acceptable?


----------



## MEM2020

2nt,

I know you are not trying to be tiresome - but you are taxing my patience. 

'Openly' outsourcing means what it says. 



2ntnuf said:


> I can see your points, but I strongly disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree about the lying and the cowardly act of cheating. Below is where I strongly disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> I think outsourcing with consent is likely okay. Outsourcing without is cheating.
> 
> There is nothing implicit. It's either up front or infidelity, plain and simple.
> 
> Because, if it isn't up front, there must be lies. See your own words above on lying.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I think what you are implying is that it's okay to stray when your spouse is not giving you sex. I would have to say that's a moral decision and is going to be subjective.
> 
> I think I have stated what I believe are the differences or, similarities above.


----------



## sparrow555

BetrayedDad said:


> Someone cue the twilight zone music....



I prefer the X-files

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAAlDoAtV7Y


----------



## 225985

2ntnuf said:


> Better yet, "Don't take it personally but, my attractive coworker wants to bang me".


Unfotunately that has been my wife's position during more than one very heated argument. It is also the reason I joined TAM.

It is a very major problem when a spouse starts lusting after a coworker, or thinks about being married to the coworker.


----------



## MEM2020

Statins are hard on your body. 

M2 takes statins. 

Being manhandled - turns her on more than anything else. 

I do sort of the bare minimum of manhandling due to fear of injuring her. 

As to sex and intense desire - we see it different. I've met a few of M2's exes.  They are all hotter than me. Physically. 

Not really sure how to express this - modestly - but our non sexual connection is simply exceptional. 

If someone said to me: you two are going to be stranded on a desert island for 24 months - without a y electronics - but with books and cards and board games and a sail boat. And enough food for the duration. 

I'd just smile and ask when we were leaving. 

I'm not into hyper-vigilance. 





marduk said:


> Sorry, don't have a ton of time but basically I'm looking at your wager. Which is essentially that the investment she's made in your relationship plus the fact that she gets emotional fulfillment leads you to think she will continue to choose monogamy with you.
> 
> One would surmise that if she thought you two were over, the first thing she'd look for is a guy that she can have a '9' level sexual relationship with because her tank is full, so to speak, with the rest.
> 
> Or, a NSA relationship in secret would bring her up to 9's easily across the board.
> 
> I'm talking in the abstract, of course, not your relationship in specific.
> 
> Although, if I were you, I'd seek to make that sexual 6 a 9.


----------



## *Deidre*

I don't think by not sharing every thought, that this is somehow being dishonest or not 'transparent.' When my fiance and I get married in October, we don't suddenly own one another. I don't become the gestapo of his life...or his thoughts. My fiance thinks I'm beautiful, and I think he is devastatingly good looking, but...there are attractive people that we will notice during our everyday lives...and yet, I don't see the need to 'inform' him of it. Being transparent means you are not keeping secrets from one another, secrets that can harm the marriage/relationship. But, to interrogate your spouse daily...wondering who he/she is looking at or noticing...or wondering if you measure up to every person he/she comes in contact with...just seems a bit unhealthy and a recipe for unnecessary drama. Life will bring my fiance and me its own drama without our asking, we don't need to make some up of our own. This is just how I feel, fwiw.


----------



## *Deidre*

MEM11363 said:


> Deidre,
> In what universe does having your hand broken by a hammer equate to - don't really care that much?
> 
> It's a sincere question. I said it would fully heal. Didn't say it wouldn't hurt a lot.
> 
> If you think about it, the physicality of an affair is your partner doing something they have ALREADY DONE with other folks before you two met. The real pain of an affair comes from - not the mechanics of it - but the intangibles. For MOST folks, an affair represents both a betrayal (which has already happened) AND a very real, and deep rooted fear of future loss. Loss of their partner. I have very little of that fear. I believe that the odds of M2 finding a more compatible life partner - are vanishingly small.
> 
> *Maybe part of this is a vast difference in viewpoint. I consider M2 a life partner. Not a possession. She considers me - a life partner who she possesses. This (her) viewpoint is not a gift - it's a curse. It causes her distress in many ways - large and small*.


Bolded by me

Well, this changes everything. Your analogy suddenly makes a lot of sense.  I'm sorry she views you/the marriage as a possession.


----------



## MEM2020

This is healthy. 

Transparency - is in many ways like respect. You can earn it, and encourage it, but demand it at your peril. 

M2 goes out for an hour and returns in three. I ask the exact same question I always do when she returns. Did you have a good time?

She struggles with this concept. I inject humor where possible to minimize friction over it. 

The bigger theme is what underlies all this which is - M2 believes that unless you're at work - you ought to be with your partner. 

The ONLY reason this works ok for me - is because she's such an excellent companion. 




*Deidre* said:


> I don't think by not sharing every thought, that this is somehow being dishonest or not 'transparent.' When my fiance and I get married in October, we don't suddenly own one another. I don't become the gestapo of his life...or his thoughts. My fiance thinks I'm beautiful, and I think he is devastatingly good looking, but...there are attractive people that we will notice during our everyday lives...and yet, I don't see the need to 'inform' him of it. Being transparent means you are not keeping secrets from one another, secrets that can harm the marriage/relationship. But, to interrogate your spouse daily...wondering who he/she is looking at or noticing...or wondering if you measure up to every person he/she comes in contact with...just seems a bit unhealthy and a recipe for unnecessary drama. Life will bring my fiance and me its own drama without our asking, we don't need to make some up of our own. This is just how I feel, fwiw.


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Statins are hard on your body.
> 
> M2 takes statins.
> 
> Being manhandled - turns her on more than anything else.
> 
> I do sort of the bare minimum of manhandling due to fear of injuring her.
> 
> As to sex and intense desire - we see it different. I've met a few of M2's exes. They are all hotter than me. Physically.
> 
> Not really sure how to express this - modestly - but our non sexual connection is simply exceptional.
> 
> If someone said to me: you two are going to be stranded on a desert island for 24 months - without a y electronics - but with books and cards and board games and a sail boat. And enough food for the duration.
> 
> I'd just smile and ask when we were leaving.
> 
> I'm not into hyper-vigilance.


I'm not talking about hyper-vigilance at all. I'm talking about getting the biggest bang for your buck while simultaneously reducing your probable risk.

But since economics isn't working out to be a good metaphor, let's use God.

Are you familiar with Pascal's Wager?

Take out God and put in 'Amazing Sex' and that's approaching what I mean.

At least bring it up to a 7, man. You're likely hotter than you think you are. And damn if that ain't fun.


----------



## MEM2020

That's actually a good idea. But just to be clear - I don't see this as an exercise in risk management. 

Perhaps I haven't explained the dynamic clearly enough. Imagine if you will, that M2 meets a doctor at work, falls for him and begins an affair. 

Her first dilemma is the biggest. Don't think she's wired to sleep with two people simultaneously. So that means - she has to stop sleeping with me. And such a thing - triggers - a very short conversation. Because that type of major shift - clearly isn't about me. So the ensuing conversation goes like this: Why are you avoiding sleeping with me?

Now - for those of you who don't know me - a brief explanation is in order. I'm like those folks on the tv series 'lie to me'. Meaning I am fluent in human micro expressions. And in deception detection. I stopped casually reading M2's mind years ago at her request. And that's fair - trust me on this - true telepathy can feel like a type of violation. Your thoughts are no longer private. 

But a situations like this - if sex stopped - that's different. I start asking why in a quiet environment - face to face. Close enough to pick up on involuntary stuff like pupil size. 

Avoidance is not effective in a situation like that. For instance: 
Question: why are you avoiding sex?
Answer:'I don't know' 
This would produce a full body laugh from me, followed by a very soft toned question: Do you want to have an open marriage?

See - the thing about that - M2 is jealous enough - that the thought of such a thing produces a borderline homocidal response. 

This is her vulnerability - not mine. This type scenario opens up a pandora scenario that pushes her into a very bad place. Not me. Her. 

Reason I find TAM so fascinating is that people focus on the oddest things. Folks in sexless marriages - worrying about infidelity. Seems beyond strange to me. If your marriage is broken - fix THAT. If you can't fix it, it's over. 

Let me quantify how odd this seems to me. An awful lot of guys on here - give them a choice of a sexless marriage for 10 years OR a very passionate 10 year marriage - where their spouse has a one night stand at the mid point.

Clearly I'm the person with 'non standard' wiring. But if M2 confessed out of the blue to having a one night stand 10 years ago - I'd ask a few questions. And yeah yeah I'd be mad for a short while - but one mistake in 26 years is just that. An outlier. 

My questions would be: did you use protection? Have you stayed in touch? Have you made an effort to avoid that type situation since? If the answers were: yes no and yes, then it's done. 




marduk said:


> I'm not talking about hyper-vigilance at all. I'm talking about getting the biggest bang for your buck while simultaneously reducing your probable risk.
> 
> But since economics isn't working out to be a good metaphor, let's use God.
> 
> Are you familiar with Pascal's Wager?
> 
> Take out God and put in 'Amazing Sex' and that's approaching what I mean.
> 
> At least bring it up to a 7, man. You're likely hotter than you think you are. And damn if that ain't fun.


----------



## jdawg2015

marduk, she thinks she married a unicorn so let her have the joy of being in Fantasyland.



marduk said:


> Really?
> 
> Of all the women on earth who currently exist... There is ONE woman he is attracted to?
> 
> And he just happened to find that one woman?
> 
> What are the odds of that? Zero.
> 
> And what are the odds that he is biologically hard coded to only find you attractive?
> 
> Zero.
> 
> The human race would soon be dead if what he were telling you is true, actually was true.
> 
> It cannot be true.
> 
> He's either protecting you, or is so good at self censoring his behaviour that he doesn't allow it to be true.
> 
> But what is not true is if I put him in front of a line up of the top 1% attractive women on earth that he would not have a biological response to that attraction, much as he tried to fight it.


----------



## Peaf

Jld, You've really outdone yourself on this thread....smh.... It's entertaining at least. 

OP, your wife is an a**h*le. I'd brush her off with a sarcastic "yup, everybody wants you" and give her a big dose of her own medicine. I agree that she is insecure and trying to make you join her in that insecurity. 

As far as showing her "more love", I think I'd make it clear that of she wants more attention/affection from you, then she needs to also be respectful of your needs (and just respectful period). 

"Transparency", my a**. If my H was this so called "transparent" we'd have BIG problems. 

This is so disrespectful.


----------



## manfromlamancha

OP there is a fine line between

(a) transparency and openness; AND

(b) disrespect coupled with lust/amorality; AND

(c) pure fantasy and vanity.

This is a dangerous game for any spouse to play.

Your wife is bordering on (b) and (c).

She needs to understand that this isn't a question of her being open about her feelings for other people - its more about why she feels the need to feed this by talking (drooling) about it rather than focussing on her marriage and husband.


----------



## jld

manfromlamancha said:


> She needs to understand that this isn't a question of her being open about her feelings for other people - its more about why she feels the need to feed this by talking (drooling) about it rather than focussing on her marriage and husband.


Talking about attraction is a great way for it to dissipate. It takes the power out of the mental hold it can have, especially if the spouse can genuinely laugh at it, or in other ways show he is not threatened.


----------



## ConanHub

MEM11363 said:


> That's actually a good idea. But just to be clear - I don't see this as an exercise in risk management.
> 
> Perhaps I haven't explained the dynamic clearly enough. Imagine if you will, that M2 meets a doctor at work, falls for him and begins an affair.
> 
> Her first dilemma is the biggest. Don't think she's wired to sleep with two people simultaneously. So that means - she has to stop sleeping with me. And such a thing - triggers - a very short conversation. Because that type of major shift - clearly isn't about me. So the ensuing conversation goes like this: Why are you avoiding sleeping with me?
> 
> Now - for those of you who don't know me - a brief explanation is in order. I'm like those folks on the tv series 'lie to me'. Meaning I am fluent in human micro expressions. And in deception detection. I stopped casually reading M2's mind years ago at her request. And that's fair - trust me on this - true telepathy can feel like a type of violation. Your thoughts are no longer private.
> 
> But a situations like this - if sex stopped - that's different. I start asking why in a quiet environment - face to face. Close enough to pick up on involuntary stuff like pupil size.
> 
> Avoidance is not effective in a situation like that. For instance:
> Question: why are you avoiding sex?
> Answer:'I don't know'
> This would produce a full body laugh from me, followed by a very soft toned question: Do you want to have an open marriage?
> 
> See - the thing about that - M2 is jealous enough - that the thought of such a thing produces a borderline homocidal response.
> 
> This is her vulnerability - not mine. This type scenario opens up a pandora scenario that pushes her into a very bad place. Not me. Her.
> 
> Reason I find TAM so fascinating is that people focus on the oddest things. Folks in sexless marriages - worrying about infidelity. Seems beyond strange to me. If your marriage is broken - fix THAT. If you can't fix it, it's over.
> 
> Let me quantify how odd this seems to me. An awful lot of guys on here - give them a choice of a sexless marriage for 10 years OR a very passionate 10 year marriage - where their spouse has a one night stand at the mid point.
> 
> Clearly I'm the person with 'non standard' wiring. But if M2 confessed out of the blue to having a one night stand 10 years ago - I'd ask a few questions. And yeah yeah I'd be mad for a short while - but one mistake in 26 years is just that. An outlier.
> 
> My questions would be: did you use protection? Have you stayed in touch? Have you made an effort to avoid that type situation since? If the answers were: yes no and yes, then it's done.


Interesting. Mrs. Conan and I are both possessions and partners with a Holy pact or covenant. We won't defy our God even though we might each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Duguesclin said:


> I see that I have been the subject of some posts here. Let me ask you all a question:
> 
> Your 25 year old daughter is beautiful. Or your son's girl friend is stunning. Do you feel lust?
> 
> If the answer is no, let's look at the twin sister of your son's girl friend that just moved in next door. Is lust acceptable in this case?
> 
> So when is it acceptable to lust over a woman and when is it not acceptable?


I agree with mental discipline to not lust. Noticing someone is attractive is different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

MEM11363 said:


> Ellis,
> 
> Yes. This is different. I've seen this movie. Don't care for it.
> 
> Daily proximity to someone you desire - is entirely different than the random sighting of someone at a theater or restaurant. Or even more remote - a movie star.


This is where the over saturation of celebrity and celebrity worship comes into play. No longer are things limited to the hot star every few years in a movie, weekly on TV, the occasional concert. There is 24/7 over exposure of celebrity with entire television networks dedicated to them, social media, etc. so daily proximity is now to the point where a person can spend more "time" with their celebrities than just about anyone else in their lives.

It is to the point where, just like porn, it is completely up the the self control of the individual to limit their own exposure. There are no environmentally limiting factors. Most people are fine, but a growing number aren't fine with it, and don't handle it well, and it's not just harmless fun.

The lines between real and fantasy are becoming so blurred...which is at the root of many body image issues, the backlash against photoshop...this is all part of the same thing...blurred lines.


----------



## jdawg2015

omg, your logic is so far out there it's hard to imagine that your husband is not playing you. And I'm not being a wise ass, I'm serious. Almost seems like you have cult thinking.




jld said:


> manfromlamancha said:
> 
> 
> 
> She needs to understand that this isn't a question of her being open about her feelings for other people - its more about why she feels the need to feed this by talking (drooling) about it rather than focussing on her marriage and husband.
> 
> 
> 
> Talking about attraction is a great way for it to dissipate. It takes the power out of the mental hold it can have, especially if the spouse can genuinely laugh at it, or in other ways show he is not threatened.
Click to expand...


----------



## jld

jdawg2015 said:


> omg, your logic is so far out there it's hard to imagine that your husband is not playing you. And I'm not being a wise ass, I'm serious. Almost seems like you have cult thinking.


We have great trust in each other, that is for sure.


----------



## Celes

I think it's okay only if you're partner is okay with it. My husband doesn't get jealous. Seriously, I've never seen him get jealous once in our 5 years together. He would not care if I told him about some hot guy I saw or hot celebrity. 

I however don't want to hear it at all. I know he's attracted to other women. I don't need to hear about it. We're just different he and I. We don't have a totally equal relationship. But then again we're not exact copies of each other. 

In the case of the OP, he was not comfortable hearing about it so it was wrong of his wife. Perhaps she didn't understand how it affected him (maybe he was playing it off cool?). Now she does and she stopped. If it happens again, then he should consider that they're incompatible.


----------



## manfromlamancha

jld said:


> Talking about attraction is a great way for it to dissipate. It takes the power out of the mental hold it can have, especially if the spouse can genuinely laugh at it, or in other ways show he is not threatened.


Maybe so - but have a look at these paragraphs:



stacylong said:


> …..
> 
> In my previous marriage I never mentioned when I found another woman attractive because I felt it would be hurtful to wife. My first wife only told me on rare occasions when she was attracted to someone and it was always done in what I think was a tasteful and sensitive manner.
> 
> In my new marriage the game has changed. My new wife for whatever reason thinks its ok to continually tell me or point out men that she thinks are very attractive. Very early in our relationship she would use the term HOT! > Her delivery of the word hot was a very guttural sound as if she were an animal in heat and would jump his bones on the spot. I told her that I am aware she will still notice men but would appreciate her not practically having an orgasm when she found someone else who she thought was attractive. ……
> 
> 
> I know fact I do not have the same liberty to express to her when I think another woman is attractive . I once mentioned to her that Jennifer Lopez had the body of a Goddess when we watched television one night after my wife insisted on knowing what I thought of her. Of course my wife was deeply hurt that I expressed my attraction to another woman who I would never met. She even said that I would forsake my marriage vows and have sex with Jennifer if I ever had the chance.
> 
> Contrast that to her telling me that she saw a man in her business meeting who she said was so attractive that she could or could see herself marrying him if it were not for me. The only issue was that he was a mixed race and her parents were highly prejudice and she would not know how she could explain this man to her mother.
> 
> …..



Do you not see a problem with the second wife's behaviour ? Not to mention stupidity at the mixed race comment.


----------



## EllisRedding

Celes said:


> I think it's okay only if you're partner is okay with it. My husband doesn't get jealous. Seriously, I've never seen him get jealous once in our 5 years together. He would not care if I told him about some hot guy I saw or hot celebrity.
> 
> I however don't want to hear it at all. I know he's attracted to other women. I don't need to hear about it. We're just different he and I. We don't have a totally equal relationship. But then again we're not exact copies of each other.
> 
> In the case of the OP, he was not comfortable hearing about it so it was wrong of his wife. Perhaps she didn't understand how it affected him (maybe he was playing it off cool?). Now she does and she stopped. If it happens again, then he should consider that they're incompatible.


Curious though, I don't think the issue is necessarily the OPs W commenting about hot guys (well, that is part of the issue to an extent). For me (and I would think many other here) the bigger issue, she is fantasizing about someone she is in personal contact with (business meeting) to the point where she is talking about this guy as if he is marriage material, the only thing holding her back is that she just happens to be married (unfortunately?) and some potential family issues. 

Do you think your H would react differently if you told him about a hot guy but went into details that would show it was more than just a passing thought (especially if your H knew this guy was someone you would have personal contact with)? I would guess he might have an issue then.


----------



## jld

manfromlamancha said:


> Do you not see a problem with the second wife's behaviour ? Not to mention stupidity at the mixed race comment.


I think you heal problems by bringing them out in the open. A spouse should know what is in your heart, if at all possible. The two should strive to fill whatever void strong attraction may be indicating.


----------



## Celes

EllisRedding said:


> Curious though, I don't think the issue is necessarily the OPs W commenting about hot guys (well, that is part of the issue to an extent). For me (and I would think many other here) the bigger issue, she is fantasizing about someone she is in personal contact with (business meeting) to the point where she is talking about this guy as if he is marriage material, the only thing holding her back is that she just happens to be married (unfortunately?) and some potential family issues.
> 
> Do you think your H would react differently if you told him about a hot guy but went into details that would show it was more than just a passing thought (especially if your H knew this guy was someone you would have personal contact with)? I would guess he might have an issue then.


To me saying that her coworker was so hot she would have married him sounds awful. If my husband ever said anything like that to me, I'd take it very badly. 

But honestly, as to your question, no my husband wouldn't have an issue. It would only be an issue if I acted on it.


----------



## Married but Happy

Different relationships have different balances, but the couple should find one that works for them. I would say that it's not a sign of a healthy relationship if you are strongly attracted TO someone else more than you are to your partner. It's different to notice that someone is attractive and even mention it (like you would a sunset), without adding sexual overtones to that. Tact is key.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Duguesclin said:


> I see that I have been the subject of some posts here. Let me ask you all a question:
> 
> Your 25 year old daughter is beautiful. Or your son's girl friend is stunning. Do you feel lust?
> 
> If the answer is no, let's look at the twin sister of your son's girl friend that just moved in next door. Is lust acceptable in this case?
> 
> So when is it acceptable to lust over a woman and when is it not acceptable?


I guess the way I see it is that they way one thinks or feels happens before the mental exercise in judging it acceptable. The examples you give would not even touch down on my radar because they just wouldn't. There are definitely people it is NOT appropriate for me to feel about that I do. Not like kids. Cuz just yuck. That is not mentally healthy. But attraction hits your head before the decision that it is inappropriate does.


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> We have great trust in each other, that is for sure.


I agree with you about transparency. It is good OP's wife was this transparent because it is revealing a problem she has.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ConanHub said:


> I agree with you about transparency. It is good OP's wife was this transparent because it is revealing a problem she has.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And she gets to see his reaction, which should help her decide if she wants to stay with him or not.


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> And she gets to see his reaction, which should help her decide if she wants to stay with him or not.


You continue to disappoint.

Is your goal to become entirely irrelevant?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding

ConanHub said:


> You continue to disappoint.
> 
> Is your goal to become entirely irrelevant?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seriously, wtf


----------



## jld

ConanHub said:


> You continue to disappoint.
> 
> Is your goal to become entirely irrelevant?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is important for a wife to see her husband's reactions to various stressors, Conan. She should have seen this before she accepted to marry him. 

Transparency from the beginning!


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> It is important for a wife to see her husband's reactions to various stressors, Conan. She should have seen this before she accepted to marry him.
> 
> Transparency from the beginning!


Interesting thought process. Let's follow it.

So a disgustingly promiscuous, unfaithful woman makes her mistake by choosing a husband that will not react well to her disgusting promiscuous and unfaithful behavior.

I absolutely agree with you.

She should have been up front about her disgusting nature from the start, don't you think?

I'm not referring to OP's wife here but if she was up front about her severe insecurity and unhealthy habit of verbally lusting over other men and talking about being married to them including details, 
it would have been good because she could have gauged his reactions to see if he would even accept her.

Most worthy men would not give her a second thought but I agree, she will clear up a lot of confusion about her as a choice for mate.

She really should be looking behind dumpsters or finding a pimp to find a man honestly capable of staying with her.

I think it is sad that she wasn't honest up front and could have avoided a marriage to a man that can't handle her behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding

ConanHub said:


> Interesting thought process. Let's follow it.
> 
> So a disgustingly promiscuous, unfaithful woman makes her mistake by choosing a husband that will not react well to her disgusting promiscuous and unfaithful behavior.
> 
> I absolutely agree with you.
> 
> She should have been up front about her disgusting nature from the start, don't you think?
> 
> I'm not referring to OP's wife here but if she was up front about her severe insecurity and unhealthy habit of verbally lusting over other men and talking about being married to them including details,
> it would have been good because she could have gauged his reactions to see if he would even accept her.
> 
> Most worthy men would not give her a second thought but I agree, she will clear up a lot of confusion about her as a choice for mate.
> 
> She really should be looking behind dumpsters or finding a pimp to find a man honestly capable of staying with her.
> 
> I think it is sad that she wasn't honest up front and could have avoided a marriage to a man that can't handle her behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What happens though if at the time they started dating she wasn't lusting after other hot men? She was focused solely on the OP and their "future" together. They get married, the chemicals settle down, the reality settles in that she "can't be with another guy", she gets sucked in to the thrill of her single friend, etc... She may have been transparent when they started dating, but things changed.

Obviously the easiest answer, if she wants to lust after other men she should not get married.

If when they were dating she exhibited this type of behavior to the OP and he looked past it, then that would be a whole other issue. Even then, if now he tells her it makes him feel uncomfortable, she should be mindful of his wishes and adjust her behavior (assuming his opinion/feelings matter to her which could be debatable).


----------



## samyeagar

EllisRedding said:


> What happens though if at the time they started dating she wasn't lusting after other hot men? She was focused solely on the OP and their "future" together. They get married, the chemicals settle down, the reality settles in that she "can't be with another guy", she gets sucked in to the thrill of her single friend, etc... She may have been transparent when they started dating, *but things changed*.
> 
> Obviously the easiest answer, if she wants to lust after other men she should not get married.
> 
> If when they were dating she exhibited this type of behavior to the OP and he looked past it, then that would be a whole other issue. Even then, if now he tells her it makes him feel uncomfortable, she should be mindful of his wishes and adjust her behavior (assuming his opinion/feelings matter to her which could be debatable).


Yes. He didn't empathy or active listen her enough. He failed to see past her words to what was in her heart, and show her she could trust him. He took her words and feeling personally instead of looking past them to what she was really wanting and needing.


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> Yes. He didn't empathy or active listen her enough. He failed to see past her words to what was in her heart, and show her she could trust him. He took her words and feeling personally instead of looking past them to what she was really wanting and needing.


This is likely part of it. Mostly it is that he is insecure.

I hope therapy can help hm with that.


----------



## Blondilocks

jld said:


> And she gets to see his reaction, which should help her decide if she wants to stay with him or not.


What? If her husband doesn't want to listen to today's round of kissy-face then she needs to decide if she will stay with him?

It's going to be pretty hard to see his reaction with her butt planted on the curb. 

jld, I honestly am so sorry that you've suffered so much at the hands of a man that you are all for the woman under any circumstance. Women can be azzholes, too and often surpass men in their cruelty. I don't think any person needs to put up with being crapped on and gender carries no weight.


----------



## jld

Let me be clear. It would be much better if when this had started, the OP had calmly told his wife it hurt his feelings to hear this, and then she had sincerely apologized, and then he had apologized for being so sensitive, and they both started to laugh and had a big hug. But absent that, they need to talk about why she feels this way, and for his own benefit, he needs to see if he can look past what seems like immature but not necessarily threatening behavior.

Look, I married a procrastinator. It has gotten better over the years, but will always be there to some extent. We all have things we have to accept in our partner if we are to stay with them.


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> Let me be clear. It would be much better if when this had started, the OP had calmly told his wife it hurt his feelings to hear this, and then she had sincerely apologized,* and then he had apologized for being so sensitive,* and they both started to laugh and had a big hug. But absent that, they need to talk about why she feels this way, and for his own benefit, he needs to see if he can look past what seems like immature but not necessarily threatening behavior.
> 
> Look, I married a procrastinator. It has gotten better over the years, but will always be there to some extent. We all have things we have to accept in our partner if we are to stay with them.


Lol at bolded, give me a break ...


----------



## I Don't Know

jld said:


> This is likely part of it. Mostly it is that he is insecure.
> 
> I hope therapy can help hm with that.


No matter the problem, the answer is always the same. Only one question ever needs to be asked... What is your gender? If you are male it's your fault or responsibility to fix. If you're female it's not.

It's cartoonish at this point. Like killing Kenny in every episode of South Park.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> Let me be clear. It would be much better if when this had started, the OP had calmly told his wife it hurt his feelings to hear this,* and then she had sincerely apologized*, and then he had apologized for being so sensitive, and they both started to laugh and had a big hug. But absent that, they need to talk about why she feels this way, and for his own benefit, he needs to see if he can look past what seems like immature but not necessarily threatening behavior.
> 
> Look, I married a procrastinator. It has gotten better over the years, but will always be there to some extent. We all have things we have to accept in our partner if we are to stay with them.


Baffling. You are one broken individual.


----------



## bandit.45

Some questions:

1) How long have you and your wife been married?

2) Was she married before you? 

3) What were the circumstances that ended your first marriage? 

4) Was your wife the product of a dysfunctional home life? Are she and her family close? 

5) If she was never married, how many relationships did she have prior to getting together with you? 

6) Is she an impulsive person? Does she binge eat? Does she rack up lots of credit card debt? Does she shoot her mouth off a lot without thinking first?


----------



## Blondilocks

Good Lord, Bandit. I foresee an armchair analysis to beat all.

Yes, it is too bad that he didn't tell her to shut her mouth the minute she started the bullsnot. But, being a confused husband, he didn't know what to do. Now, he does - shut it down the instant it starts. I have to say - that lady has some balls to be overweight and out of shape and still drop her lusting ramblings on him.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> This is likely part of it. Mostly it is that he is insecure.
> 
> I hope therapy can help hm with that.


It is more likely that she is the one in need of therapy. She mentions that if she wasn't married to OP, she would marry a specific coworker. Conversely, he comments on how good J.Lo looks and she gets bent out of shape. He's not the sensitive one here, jld. He's the sensiBLE one. She, however, is in desperate need if therapy to get over her insecurity. YES, they SHOULD be able to share things like that... but with each other. That means if she feels it is OK to share her thoughts on whether she thinks some guy at the grocery store is "hot", it is reasonable to expect that it is OK for OP to share when he finds someone attractive as well. She doesn't want to hear it? Then she should keep her mouth shut, too! The double standard on this is ridiculous. And telling him to, essentially, "man up" because his wife IS behaving like an immature little girl is preposterous.

And before you try to delve into my psyche... no, jld, I am not angry. Yes, I am able to share with my husband if I find someone attractive. Yes, if he finds someone attractive, he is able to tell me, too. And, yes, I am insecure about how *I* look, too. The difference here is I don't hold my husband to a different standard, as OP's wife does.


----------



## MEM2020

Best place to start in any interpersonal exchange is with directionality.

Am I doing this for me, or for you, or TO you. 

In this case, the wife isn't doing this for herself. She's doing it TO HIM. There is nothing stopping her from enjoying the view. But she's pushing her desire for other men in his face. 

In a foreign landscape, the first move is always the same. Seek first to understand. 

He ought to ask her, why she feels the need to belabor the obvious. Which is that we humans - are wired to find each other attractive. 

Because she is trying to get a reaction from him. Don't know what it is. But she wants something. Maybe she wants him to be jealous. Because she's insecure. 






samyeagar said:


> This is where the over saturation of celebrity and celebrity worship comes into play. No longer are things limited to the hot star every few years in a movie, weekly on TV, the occasional concert. There is 24/7 over exposure of celebrity with entire television networks dedicated to them, social media, etc. so daily proximity is now to the point where a person can spend more "time" with their celebrities than just about anyone else in their lives.
> 
> It is to the point where, just like porn, it is completely up the the self control of the individual to limit their own exposure. There are no environmentally limiting factors. Most people are fine, but a growing number aren't fine with it, and don't handle it well, and it's not just harmless fun.
> 
> The lines between real and fantasy are becoming so blurred...which is at the root of many body image issues, the backlash against photoshop...this is all part of the same thing...blurred lines.


----------



## MEM2020

The question this brings to mind - is: Do you want to be with me?

He ought ask it. And when he gets a defensive reaction - he needs to just shrug and add: typically, when happy with your current partner, you don't spend a lot of time obsessing about fvcking other folks. 





Blondilocks said:


> Good Lord, Bandit. I foresee an armchair analysis to beat all.
> 
> Yes, it is too bad that he didn't tell her to shut her mouth the minute she started the bullsnot. But, being a confused husband, he didn't know what to do. Now, he does - shut it down the instant it starts. I have to say - that lady has some balls to be overweight and out of shape and still drop her lusting ramblings on him.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Because she is trying to get a reaction from him. Don't know what it is. But she wants something. Maybe she wants him to be jealous. Because she's insecure.


Because she knows he is attracted to others, it hurts her deeply, and she wants him to hurt in the same way she does in the tit-for-tat way that is being promoted here (for him)?


Just speculating.


----------



## 225985

samyeagar said:


> Yes. He didn't empathy or active listen her enough. He failed to see past her words to what was in her heart, and show her she could trust him. He took her words and feeling personally instead of looking past them to what she was really wanting and needing.


Verbal and written language originated thousands of years ago as a form of communication. Yes, there is also non-verbal communication but let's focus for now on the verbal part, as that is relevant to this thread. 

I really do not want to spend my entire life analyzing and questioning what my wife says to look for some alternate or hidden meaning. That is no way to live. Nor would I need therapy to learn to active listen or whatever is the code word for a person not effectively communicating. 

Now, every time my wife says something, would I have to ask her "But what do you REALLY mean by that"? For example, when I come home from work and the wife says "Dinner is not yet ready" what she is really saying is that "I did not have time to cook earlier because I was cheating on you plus you do not earn enough money for us to afford a maid and cook so I will be leaving you as soon as I find a hot rich guy"?

OP's wife does have some obligation to communicate effectively to her husband and not leave it up to him to decipher the message she is trying to send either consciously or subconsciously. OP clearly told his wife he is uncomfortable with what she says and does on this topic. He effectively communicated. Should he not expect the same consideration from his wife?


----------



## shirdon3

If I were to constantly point out to my wife what women I find attractive she would go insane. So, guess what, I don't do it. Oh, if I am describing someone who is part of a conversation subject then she has no problem with me describing the person, female or male as attractive. But if I were to constantly point out the women I find attractive, that wouldn't go over well. On the other hand if she points out a man who is attractive it isn't troubling to me because I have a fairly healthy self image. 
Of course , if she did this on a regular basis as we're out in society I would, at first jovially point out to her that that "isn't helpful". If she continued I would more seriously point out to her that "it is offensive when you do that so please stop". If she continued I would choose to ignore it, maybe mentioning to her from time to time that it is bothersome. 
As to your wfe and her girlfriend discussing who is good looking and a candidate for marriage, I'd mention that it isn't something you enjoy them doing in your presence, "so please don't"! Hopefully she would stop it. If she doesn't stop right away, ignore it for now but as time goes by I would on occasion bring it up again so she eventually quits that.
Just remember that even the best marriages have areas where they don't see eye to eye.It's healthy to learn to not be so touchy. I know a guy whose marriage seems very solid yet I also know that she says and does things that he'd just as soon she didn't. He just mostly lets it be.
It reminds me of what one of my college professors told us about leadership in churches and elsewhere. He said, "if there is a storm at sea and it is going to go on by without coming inland, leave it alone. If it does come inland then do what is necessary to fight it. Don't fight fights that you don't have to. If you have to then be effective and judicious as you address it.
Not long ago I read on the internet some marriage tips by one Clair Coleman, some of which could be helpful here. The link below takes you there.

http://www.marriagestabilizer.com


----------



## bbdad

My wife and I are pretty open with things. I have no problem with her sharing things like that. She has no problem with me sharing things like that. It just comes down to trust between us. Neither of us feel the other is going to run off with anyone.


----------



## MEM2020

Always,
She has some choices. The grown up choice is to get in shape as part of addressing her insecurities. 

The instant gratification play is to try and drag him down the rat hole so he also feels insecure. 

For someone who is so big on truth - you struggle with this theme. 

The fact that I feel desire for other women - is about ME. It's got nothing to do with M2. You don't have to like that. It is however entirely true. 

And even if you put M2 in a time machine - made her 27 again - such that I was constantly in heat - in her presence. Even then, she wouldn't loom large enough in my mind, to block out the sun. Even then I would feel raw desire for others. 





always_alone said:


> Because she knows he is attracted to others, it hurts her deeply, and she wants him to hurt in the same way she does in the tit-for-tat way that is being promoted here (for him)?
> 
> 
> Just speculating.


----------



## tech-novelist

Blondilocks said:


> Southern California. Home of the sun-kist look and enhancements to suit your pleasure. All you have to do is come up with the sunshine tax.


The sun-kist look looks good for awhile, then they look like a catcher's mitt. My wife, on the other hand, has stayed out of the sun most of her life and her skin is still good at 67.


----------



## tech-novelist

bandit.45 said:


> The Sunk Cost Fallacy is a term to describe the obsessive need of continuing to invest in something that only provides very minimal returns at best over a long period of time, but because it is a high risk/ high yield investment you continue to keep investing, hoping year by year that you will eventually strike it rich, when in actuality you are pissing money out a porthole.
> 
> It can refer to business investments as well as dysfunctional relationships.


That's not the sunk cost fallacy.

The sunk cost fallacy refers to the case where you have put a lot into something in the past and keep investing so as not to admit that it is a lost cause. The better solution is to write it off and move forward with a clean slate.


----------



## TX-SC

I don't see a need to say someone is attractive. My wife has eyes and can see for herself. I can also spot a good looking guy when I see one, even though I'm not gay. I just don't see a need to rub that in her face.


----------



## tech-novelist

MEM11363 said:


> Statins are hard on your body.
> 
> M2 takes statins.


"Hard on your body" is the biggest understatement I can imagine. They are horrendously dangerous at best and can be fatal at worst.

Note: I'm not a doctor and don't play one on the internet, but I would never take statins no matter what a doctor told me.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Always,
> She has some choices. The grown up choice is to get in shape as part of addressing her insecurities.
> 
> The instant gratification play is to try and drag him down the rat hole so he also feels insecure.
> 
> For someone who is so big on truth - you struggle with this theme.
> 
> The fact that I feel desire for other women - is about ME. It's got nothing to do with M2. You don't have to like that. It is however entirely true.
> 
> And even if you put M2 in a time machine - made her 27 again - such that I was constantly in heat - in her presence. Even then, she wouldn't loom large enough in my mind, to block out the sun. Even then I would feel raw desire for others.


He has choices too. Fact is that she feels desire for other men. It is about *her* and has nothing to do with him. She is as entitled to he is to be constantly in heat. Even if *he* is the most awesome guy in the world, it isn"t enough to block out the sun.

I realize, MEM, that you are not advocating that somehow she is the problem for having these desires. But nonetheless, I think it valuable to point out that the advice you are giving me, basically tough luck if I don't like it, also applies to him.

He can get her to STFU about it, most probably, by wielding the tit-for-tat weapon "teaching" her empathy. But he can't change how she feels about others.

See what I mean?

It escalates.

If OP were truly secure about her obvious interest in others, he would laugh off her comments. But he isn't. Tough luck.


----------



## bandit.45

Blondilocks said:


> Good Lord, Bandit. I foresee an armchair analysis to beat all.


I cannot make bricks without straw!


----------



## 2ntnuf

MEM11363 said:


> 2nt,
> 
> I know you are not trying to be tiresome - but you are taxing my patience.
> 
> 'Openly' outsourcing means what it says.


"Openly" just means she knows, since you have stated so. I believe there are better, yet tougher choices.


----------



## MEM2020

Which are?





2ntnuf said:


> "Openly" just means she knows, since you have stated so. I believe there are better, yet tougher choices.


----------



## MEM2020

Always,
Why are you playing word games with me? It's not like you to do that. 

Desire - is a bio reaction. Put a plate of hot food in front of me when I'm hungry and I salivate. When the plate is set down - and I realize it's someone else's order - my interest in eating it goes away. It is not my order. I smile, amd tell the server she's at the wrong table. 

Interest. Is a completely different thing than raw desire. Interest is about focus. It's a frontal brain function. 

Do I feel desire for other women. Yes. Am I interested in / focused on other women? No. 

So now - crux of the matter. I don't get all wound up by other women - because that requires focus. And I don't have that. So yes - I feel reflexive desire. So what. 

You are reminding me of the folks who say: the thought is every bit as much a sin as the deed. 

And all this theory aside - the bar you claim to subscribe to and the bar you live are vastly different. 

I wouldn't tolerate having a bar set as low as you. Comes back to my earlier comments. M2 - is welcome to feel attraction for others. That's just the human chassis - doing its reproductive thing.

But were she to try to replace me with a vibrator or porn or both, I'd outsource. Openly. 

With or without her consent. No one likes this answer but it's the truth. I would not leave M2 over sex. But I would let her leave me over it - if the only option on the table was celibacy. 






always_alone said:


> He has choices too. Fact is that she feels desire for other men. It is about *her* and has nothing to do with him. She is as entitled to he is to be constantly in heat. Even if *he* is the most awesome guy in the world, it isn"t enough to block out the sun.
> 
> I realize, MEM, that you are not advocating that somehow she is the problem for having these desires. But nonetheless, I think it valuable to point out that the advice you are giving me, basically tough luck if I don't like it, also applies to him.
> 
> He can get her to STFU about it, most probably, by wielding the tit-for-tat weapon "teaching" her empathy. But he can't change how she feels about others.
> 
> See what I mean?
> 
> It escalates.
> 
> If OP were truly secure about her obvious interest in others, he would laugh off her comments. But he isn't. Tough luck.


----------



## MEM2020

No - what she is doing is focusing on other men instead of focusing on him. That isn't raw desire. That's focus. That's interest. And she is aggressively communicating her priorities to him. 




always_alone said:


> He has choices too. Fact is that she feels desire for other men. It is about *her* and has nothing to do with him. She is as entitled to he is to be constantly in heat. Even if *he* is the most awesome guy in the world, it isn"t enough to block out the sun.
> 
> I realize, MEM, that you are not advocating that somehow she is the problem for having these desires. But nonetheless, I think it valuable to point out that the advice you are giving me, basically tough luck if I don't like it, also applies to him.
> 
> He can get her to STFU about it, most probably, by wielding the tit-for-tat weapon "teaching" her empathy. But he can't change how she feels about others.
> 
> See what I mean?
> 
> It escalates.
> 
> If OP were truly secure about her obvious interest in others, he would laugh off her comments. But he isn't. Tough luck.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Always,
> Why are you playing word games with me? It's not like you to do that.


MEM, I am not playing word games with you, or least that isn't my intent.

Let me come at this from a different angle. You have expressed great confidence many times in your relationship. You know you are the best partner for M2. You know she needs you more than you need her. You know she is not likely to leave you, but if she does you will simply repartner.

Now, of course I don't know how M2 feels, but I'd wager that she has much less confidence in her desirability than you do. 

As such, you hold a great deal of power in your relationship, and you can easily let out a full belly laugh if her head is turned by some random guy.

Not all of us have such power or confidence in our desirability. Certainly I don't. And I don't think either OP's wife or even OP himself has it either.

What you are calling "focus" in OPs wife is just words. My SO once told me that he would go for my best friend if I weren't in the picture. To his mind, he wasn't threatening me, putting me down, or even rubbing my nose in the fact that he found her and others desirable. It was just a simple fact. 

It is always fair to tell people *not* to talk about things. It is fair to say "this upsets me, I don't want to hear about it". But even if the person obliges, it still changes nothing about how that person really thinks and feels. It just drives it underground. My SO no longer tells me he is hot for my friend. He just is. 

Having it out of sight doesn't actually make it better. Indeed, it makes it worse in many ways.

I understand the impulses behind the tit-for-tat game. I've had them myself many a time. And OP may very well be successful in getting his wife to STFU if he plays it.

But is it going to change anything? Is it going to make either his or her insecurities go away? Not likely, IMHO.


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> MEM, I am not playing word games with you, or least that isn't my intent.
> 
> Let me come at this from a different angle. You have expressed great confidence many times in your relationship. You know you are the best partner for M2. You know she needs you more than you need her. You know she is not likely to leave you, but if she does you will simply repartner.
> 
> Now, of course I don't know how M2 feels, but I'd wager that she has much less confidence in her desirability than you do.
> 
> As such, you hold a great deal of power in your relationship, and you can easily let out a full belly laugh if her head is turned by some random guy.
> 
> Not all of us have such power or confidence in our desirability. Certainly I don't. And I don't think either OP's wife or even OP himself has it either.
> 
> What you are calling "focus" in OPs wife is just words. *My SO once told me that he would go for my best friend if I weren't in the picture. To his mind, he wasn't threatening me, putting me down, or even rubbing my nose in the fact that he found her and others desirable. It was just a simple fact. *
> 
> It is always fair to tell people *not* to talk about things. It is fair to say "this upsets me, I don't want to hear about it". *But even if the person obliges, it still changes nothing about how that person really thinks and feels. It just drives it underground. * My SO no longer tells me he is hot for my friend. He just is.
> 
> Having it out of sight doesn't actually make it better. Indeed, it makes it worse in many ways.
> 
> *I understand the impulses behind the tit-for-tat game.* I've had them myself many a time. And OP may very well be successful in getting his wife to STFU if he plays it.
> 
> *But is it going to change anything? Is it going to make either his or her insecurities go away? Not likely, IMHO*.


Wow, that reality has got to hurt, aa. It would feel like a threat to me. Like MEM's wife knowing what will happen if she does not toe the line on sex.

I could not live that way.


----------



## I Don't Know

:wtf: 

To me it doesn't matter if its a co-worker, casual acquaintance, or a celebrity. When you start using phrases like "If it weren't for you, I'd want to bang so and so." you are sending a message that your partner is as good as you think you can do... or... if only I was single (read you weren't in my way). 

It doesn't matter if it's a famous person, the fact is that you'd rather be with them but your life just didn't work out to allow that to happen for one reason or another. That it's unrealistic or just a fantasy is irrelevant in my mind. You rather be with someone else AND think so little of me that you'd just say it like that? Here. Let me help you get started with that.


----------



## snerg

jld said:


> It is important for a wife to see her husband's reactions to various stressors, Conan. She should have seen this before she accepted to marry him.
> 
> Transparency from the beginning!


Wow.

So Shyt testing is good for a relationship?

Are you kidding?

That's what teen aged *GIRLS* do.

Women don't do this


----------



## jld

snerg said:


> Wow.
> 
> So Shyt testing is good for a relationship?
> 
> Are you kidding?
> 
> That's what teen aged *GIRLS* do.
> 
> Women don't do this


The way I see it, she is not "testing him". Unless you think he is also "testing her"?

She is just being herself. And he is being himself. And they either have to work it out in a way that they can both live with, or they need to split up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Always,

The best friend thing - did you ASK him that, or did he volunteer it?







always_alone said:


> MEM, I am not playing word games with you, or least that isn't my intent.
> 
> Let me come at this from a different angle. You have expressed great confidence many times in your relationship. You know you are the best partner for M2. You know she needs you more than you need her. You know she is not likely to leave you, but if she does you will simply repartner.
> 
> Now, of course I don't know how M2 feels, but I'd wager that she has much less confidence in her desirability than you do.
> 
> As such, you hold a great deal of power in your relationship, and you can easily let out a full belly laugh if her head is turned by some random guy.
> 
> Not all of us have such power or confidence in our desirability. Certainly I don't. And I don't think either OP's wife or even OP himself has it either.
> 
> What you are calling "focus" in OPs wife is just words. My SO once told me that he would go for my best friend if I weren't in the picture. To his mind, he wasn't threatening me, putting me down, or even rubbing my nose in the fact that he found her and others desirable. It was just a simple fact.
> 
> It is always fair to tell people *not* to talk about things. It is fair to say "this upsets me, I don't want to hear about it". But even if the person obliges, it still changes nothing about how that person really thinks and feels. It just drives it underground. My SO no longer tells me he is hot for my friend. He just is.
> 
> Having it out of sight doesn't actually make it better. Indeed, it makes it worse in many ways.
> 
> I understand the impulses behind the tit-for-tat game. I've had them myself many a time. And OP may very well be successful in getting his wife to STFU if he plays it.
> 
> But is it going to change anything? Is it going to make either his or her insecurities go away? Not likely, IMHO.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Always,
> 
> The best friend thing - did you ASK him that, or did he volunteer it?


What does it matter? Does it affect the truthfulness of it in some way?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Not at all. 

There is however a huge difference between radical honesty - where you always answer truthfully and radical candor - where you have zero filter and just say each and every little thing that pops into your head. 






jld said:


> What does it matter? Does it affect the truthfulness of it in some way?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Not at all.
> 
> There is however a huge difference between radical honesty - where you always answer truthfully and radical candor - where you have zero filter and just say each and every little thing that pops into your head.


Candor is even less work for the listener, that's for sure.

Bottom line, it is the reality that bothers the listener, however they find it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

You ought to try listening to yourself. 




jld said:


> Candor is even less work for the listener, that's for sure.
> 
> Bottom line, it is the reality that bothers the listener, however they find it out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blondilocks

Radical Candor aka Verbal Diarrhea. Practitioners will try the patience of a saint.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Always,
> 
> The best friend thing - did you ASK him that, or did he volunteer it?


Volunteered. In the context of a conversation about her relationship status (single).


----------



## always_alone

jld said:


> Wow, that reality has got to hurt, aa. It would feel like a threat to me. Like MEM's wife knowing what will happen if she does not toe the line on sex.
> 
> I could not live that way.


Yes, it hurt, and yes I pointed that out to him. Which is why he doesn't say stuff anymore, he just thinks it. 

It is my impression that the only way to truly avoid this situation is to stay single. Some people do seem to manage to find a great deal of confidence in their relationships and desirability. You and Dug, for example, come to mind. MEM, some of the other posters on this thread.

But My feedback on this has never been good. And so I think it's just the way it is for me.


----------



## Blondilocks

always, did you volunteer to fix them up? For all either of you know, your BFF thinks he's ugly and a jerk. A jerk he is. I'm sorry you find the need to stay with him.


----------



## always_alone

jld said:


> Bottom line, it is the reality that bothers the listener, however they find it out.


And it is the reality that bothers the one who knows, even if it is never spoken aloud.


----------



## always_alone

Blondilocks said:


> always, did you volunteer to fix them up? For all either of you know, your BFF thinks he's ugly and a jerk. A jerk he is. I'm sorry you find the need to stay with him.


My SO knows where the door is. And if he really wants her, he is welcome to chase her. Not sure how she feels about him.

Will say, though, as much as we are very dear friends, she would eat him alive, as in chew him up and spit him out. And if that's what he wants, far be it for me to stand in his way.


----------



## always_alone

I Don't Know said:


> To me it doesn't matter if its a co-worker, casual acquaintance, or a celebrity. When you start using phrases like "If it weren't for you, I'd want to bang so and so." you are sending a message that your partner is as good as you think you can do... or... if only I was single (read you weren't in my way).


According to my SO, the proper way to interpret such phrases is that the other person is *second*. So it's not so much to be understood as "if you weren't in my way" as that spin is too negative.

It is to be understood as "if I didn't already have someone better."

Agree, though, that it doesn't really come across that way. At least if you have relationship insecurities it doesn't.


----------



## MEM2020

Always,

We don't live in an 'intention free' world. 

Certain types of comments have a very high cost/benefit ratio. That type comment - has a high cost. What exactly was the benefit of it?

Because I'm confident he knew that would hurt you. 

There's lots of ways to tell the truth. Usually there is a constructive delivery style. But in some cases not. Like the - I want to fvck your best friend - case. 





always_alone said:


> Yes, it hurt, and yes I pointed that out to him. Which is why he doesn't say stuff anymore, he just thinks it.
> 
> It is my impression that the only way to truly avoid this situation is to stay single. Some people do seem to manage to find a great deal of confidence in their relationships and desirability. You and Dug, for example, come to mind. MEM, some of the other posters on this thread.
> 
> But My feedback on this has never been good. And so I think it's just the way it is for me.


----------



## MEM2020

This isn't just false. It's utter nonsense. 

I can deliver content - difficult content: in a kind, non threatening and constructive manner. 

Or in a blunt judgemental way. Exact same content. Completely different reaction from the listener. 

Most folks can tell when you are trying to draw blood, vs trying to staunch the flow from an open wound. 






jld said:


> Candor is even less work for the listener, that's for sure.
> 
> Bottom line, it is the reality that bothers the listener, however they find it out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## I Don't Know

always_alone said:


> *According to my SO, the proper way to interpret such phrases is that the other person is *second*. So it's not so much to be understood as "if you weren't in my way" as that spin is too negative.
> 
> It is to be understood as "if I didn't already have someone better."
> *
> Agree, though, that it doesn't really come across that way. At least if you have relationship insecurities it doesn't.


I realize we will all notice attractive people. There's no getting around it. And I'll give the benefit of the doubt that they really do think that way (bolded), but why go looking for second place if you've already found first? And to my mind the need to comment about it is letting you know they are looking.


----------



## MEM2020

Here's a perfect example. 

Walk into a small store and ask the manager: Is this your little store?

It's a factually correct statement. 

When she's tired, M2 sometimes looks old. In what universe would I volunteer that to her? 





Blondilocks said:


> Radical Candor aka Verbal Diarrhea. Practitioners will try the patience of a saint.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Always,
> 
> We don't live in an 'intention free' world.
> 
> Certain types of comments have a very high cost/benefit ratio. That type comment - has a high cost. What exactly was the benefit of it?
> 
> Because I'm confident he knew that would hurt you.


I'm not a mind-reader, MEM, and so I don't know what his intentions were. I can only tell the story from his side as he told it to me.

And that is that he had no intention of hurting me. What was the benefit? He was just expressing an opinion, which began as surprise that she was single.

I'm supposed to already know that it would only be if I weren't in the picture that he would go after her.


----------



## think positive

jld said:


> Is a man's holding the door for a woman hypocrisy and a double standard, too?
> 
> OP, I think her transparency with you is a sign of great trust in you. Feel proud of that--you earned it.



Did you actually read his quote? So she can make comments (even insinuate that she would want to marry a man with whom she has contact with but, if he admires the body of a celebrity that is forbidden. 

How is that any relation to holding a door open for a women? Apples and oranges. 

To the OP, my wife does not share men that she feels attracted to that she knows in real life. I am not sure I need to know that. She has a couple of celebrity crushes...a couple guys from Magic Mike. That she has admitted make her aroused. Sometimes she gets jealous of me oogling/ getting aroused by women on TV. 

We are all hypocrites on some level. Your wife seems extreme.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Here's a perfect example.
> 
> Walk into a small store and ask the manager: Is this your little store?
> 
> It's a factually correct statement.
> 
> When she's tired, M2 sometimes looks old. In what universe would I volunteer that to her?


MEM, we've had this conversation before, including a lovely thread on the topic of transparency.

Truth is, I waffle on the topic. You *think* something, but find it cruel to say it. You are probably right.

But for someone like me, I *know* it is thought, and the failure to say it out loud doesn't make it go away.

We should all be kind to each other. There is already enough pain in this cruel world; we don't need to add to it. But at the same time, we all have these thoughts, and hiding them or sticking our heads in the sand don't make them go away.

I will never advocate saying mean things to one's partner. Certainly not intentionally. But I struggle daily with how to properly receive hurtful information. One half says "fvck you!". The other half says "what did you expect?"


----------



## always_alone

I Don't Know said:


> I realize we will all notice attractive people. There's no getting around it. And I'll give the benefit of the doubt that they really do think that way (bolded), but why go looking for second place if you've already found first? And to my mind the need to comment about it is letting you know they are looking.


What I personally struggle with most is how to think about it.

MEM, for example, drew a clear line between desire and interest.

I don't think there is a clear line there. A quick fvck is not the same as a long term relationship, to be sure, but boy are there a whole lot of grey zones between those two extremes.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> This isn't just false. It's utter nonsense.
> 
> I can deliver content - difficult content: in a kind, non threatening and constructive manner.
> 
> Or in a blunt judgemental way. Exact same content. Completely different reaction from the listener.
> 
> Most folks can tell when you are trying to draw blood, vs trying to staunch the flow from an open wound.


Honestly, it makes absolutely no difference to me how my SO delivers the message that I am unattractive to him. Constructive, non-judgemental, obvious repulsion. Doesn't matter. Message received.


----------



## Blondilocks

"I don't think there is a clear line there. A quick fvck is not the same as a long term relationship, to be sure, but boy are there a whole lot of grey zones between those two extremes."

If you're speaking of a one time stand versus a long term relationship with a person who is not your SO, then there are no grey zones. Both constitute being unfaithful and there is no need to parse the word 'unfaithful'.

Always, you seem like the type of person who is insulted and you stand there with a quizzical look on your face because you're not sure if they intended to insult you. Giving the benefit of the doubt is generous but you can speak up and address your uneasiness without putting people off. If they are put off, then chances are they did intend to insult you.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes - his lack of desire is very painful for you. 

And I'm not certain how one can express that - non hurt fully. 

I remember the first time M2 told me her sex drive had disappeared - maybe 5 years ago. 

But in truth it was a combo of biology and low desire for me. 

She was so nice about it. Thanked her for telling me. Wasn't mad. Wasn't hurt. Could tell she was still into me. 




always_alone said:


> Honestly, it makes absolutely no difference to me how my SO delivers the message that I am unattractive to him. Constructive, non-judgemental, obvious repulsion. Doesn't matter. Message received.


----------



## always_alone

Blondilocks said:


> "I don't think there is a clear line there. A quick fvck is not the same as a long term relationship, to be sure, but boy are there a whole lot of grey zones between those two extremes."
> 
> If you're speaking of a one time stand versus a long term relationship with a person who is not your SO, then there are no grey zones. Both constitute being unfaithful and there is no need to parse the word 'unfaithful'.


Actually I was speaking of MEM's distinction between raw desire and interest. No matter if it is with or without one's partner, whether it happens when one is single or married, I do not think there is a clear line of demarcation.


One question, though: why are you determined to point out to me that I am being insulted? Why aren't the explanations I've offered here enough to convince you that my SO meant no ill will.

Genuinely curious.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Honestly, and I know I'm barging in here, but I just wanted to voice my thoughts. 

I think AA's SO was telling her She was the best choice of the two. 

Had she not been interested in him, He would have pursued another, who just happened to be the woman she mentioned. 

I didn't think there was any underlying issue.


----------



## NobodySpecial

always_alone said:


> MEM, we've had this conversation before, including a lovely thread on the topic of transparency.
> 
> Truth is, I waffle on the topic. You *think* something, but find it cruel to say it. You are probably right.
> 
> But for someone like me, I *know* it is thought, and the failure to say it out loud doesn't make it go away.
> 
> We should all be kind to each other. There is already enough pain in this cruel world; we don't need to add to it. But at the same time, we all have these thoughts, and hiding them or sticking our heads in the sand don't make them go away.
> 
> I will never advocate saying mean things to one's partner. Certainly not intentionally. But I struggle daily with how to properly receive hurtful information. One half says "fvck you!". The other half says "what did you expect?"


The thing that has been troubling me is that both you and MEM are right but talking about 2 different things. The SAYING (or not saying) is not the thing when the thing is not really fundamentally problematic. Like MEM's kindly not mentioning that his wife looks old when she is tired is not a THING. Because that she looks old in that moment is so unimportant to their relationship. The challenge for you and the OP is that there is an untenable FACT, pining away for someone else when stuff is less than ideal at home, that does not go away by failure to speak it. Funny thing is, if either one of your partners' had failed to say anything, the fact would be unknown. Would it still be problematic? For both you and the OP, I suspect that the fact is just a splash in a pond of other unhappy facts.


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> And it is the reality that bothers the one who knows, even if it is never spoken aloud.


I think it is better for it to be said. I know these things are painful, but it is useful info. It helps people make informed decisions about how they want to proceed. Some will want to work through it, some will want to leave, and some may just ignore it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> Honestly, it makes absolutely no difference to me how my SO delivers the message that I am unattractive to him. Constructive, non-judgemental, obvious repulsion. Doesn't matter. Message received.


Are you sure that was the message, though? 

I know Dug has said things to me that seemed hurtful at first glance. But later, when we talked, they no longer had that initial sting. Some people are just direct. At least you get their pov right upfront instead of guessing between the lines.

But after 17 years together, you surely know his heart. And if he truly does not love you and hold you first in his heart, then that is very sad indeed. Because he is very fortunate to be with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Thing is - unless she's deceiving me, I get 99% of M2's sexual energy. 

Always - has a partner who expends a lot of sexual energy on porn and then doesn't meet her needs. Totally different. 

On top of that - he volunteers hurtful comments. And then claims to be surprised at her reaction. 

IME - if he was really into her every which way - including sexually - than this stuff would be a LOT less painful. But he clearly DOES have a sex drive. 





NobodySpecial said:


> The thing that has been troubling me is that both you and MEM are right but talking about 2 different things. The SAYING (or not saying) is not the thing when the thing is not really fundamentally problematic. Like MEM's kindly not mentioning that his wife looks old when she is tired is not a THING. Because that she looks old in that moment is so unimportant to their relationship. The challenge for you and the OP is that there is an untenable FACT, pining away for someone else when stuff is less than ideal at home, that does not go away by failure to speak it. Funny thing is, if either one of your partners' had failed to say anything, the fact would be unknown. Would it still be problematic? For both you and the OP, I suspect that the fact is just a splash in a pond of other unhappy facts.


----------



## always_alone

NobodySpecial said:


> Funny thing is, if either one of your partners' had failed to say anything, the fact would be unknown.


Maybe yes, maybe no. There are lots of ways of knowing things besides being told. It's amazing what simple observation can reveal.

I get what you're saying, but basically my point is that it is easy to make a thing out of something that isn't. People were quick to say that my SO is a jerk, for example, even though I said outright that he wasn't trying to hurt me, that it was not really different in kind to the raw desire that MEM and others all say is so natural and a part of human attraction. Just because he's hot for her doesn't mean he's pining for her.

I guess I'm just questioning where the line is between a "thing" and a "non-thing". There is nothing like insecurity to turn a non-thing into a full blown thing, after all. But at the same time, you don't want to just stick your head in the sand and pretend that all is well when it isn't.


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> Thing is - unless she's deceiving me, I get 99% of M2's sexual energy.
> 
> Always - has a partner who expends a lot of sexual energy on porn and then doesn't meet her needs. Totally different.
> 
> On top of that - he volunteers hurtful comments. And then claims to be surprised at her reaction.
> 
> IME - if he was really into her every which way - including sexually - than this stuff would be a LOT less painful. But he clearly DOES have a sex drive.


The crap would also be much more infrequent.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## samyeagar

MEM11363 said:


> Thing is - unless she's deceiving me, I get 99% of M2's sexual energy.
> 
> Always - has a partner who expends a lot of sexual energy on porn and then doesn't meet her needs. Totally different.
> 
> On top of that - he volunteers hurtful comments. And then claims to be surprised at her reaction.
> 
> *IME - if he was really into her every which way - including sexually - than this stuff would be a LOT less painful. But he clearly DOES have a sex drive*.


I think this is very important. It is the root of the problem my wife and I have with this issue. Much like you, I am as certain as one can be that I get virtually all of my wife's sexual energy, but I likewise feel certain that I don't get close to the majority of her observational energy.


----------



## *Deidre*

Unless we all lived holed up in a cave with just our partner, it would seem unrealistic to expect the majority of our SO's observational energy to go to us.


----------



## farsidejunky

True, but what an interesting concept that Sam's brought up.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## samyeagar

*Deidre* said:


> Unless we all lived holed up in a cave with just our partner, it would seem unrealistic to expect the majority of our SO's observational energy to go to us.


Perhaps I should have qualified that with 'expressive' as in directly comparable observations that are meaningful enough to be expressed.


----------



## *Deidre*

samyeagar said:


> Perhaps I should have qualified that with 'expressive' as in directly comparable observations that are meaningful enough to be expressed.


I see. (I think) Meaning, she expresses her observations of others, but not of you...to you?


----------



## samyeagar

*Deidre* said:


> I see. (I think) Meaning, she expresses her observations of others, but not of you...to you?


Yes.

I suppose analogous to physical appearance observation would be something like this...suppose you do the cooking in the house. Your husband always eats it all, even has seconds, but never really tells you that he likes it, or anything in particular he likes about your cooking. However, when ever you go over to someone else's house, or watch a cooking show on TV, he is frequently complimentary, detailed about what he liked about it. Will tell the other husband how good of a cook the other husbands wife is.


----------



## EllisRedding

samyeagar said:


> Yes.
> 
> I suppose analogous to physical appearance observation would be something like this...suppose you do the cooking in the house. Your husband always eats it all, even has seconds, but never really tells you that he likes it, or anything in particular he likes about your cooking. However, when ever you go over to someone else's house, or watch a cooking show on TV, he is frequently complimentary, detailed about what he liked about it. Will tell the other husband how good of a cook the other husbands wife is.


Why is that, do you think your W is just so comfortable (complacent?) with you that she feels like she doesn't need to compliment you (i.e. you should already know how she feels)?


----------



## *Deidre*

samyeagar said:


> Yes.
> 
> I suppose analogous to physical appearance observation would be something like this...suppose you do the cooking in the house. Your husband always eats it all, even has seconds, but never really tells you that he likes it, or anything in particular he likes about your cooking. However, when ever you go over to someone else's house, or watch a cooking show on TV, he is frequently complimentary, detailed about what he liked about it. Will tell the other husband how good of a cook the other husbands wife is.


Okay. So, she tells you about other men she finds attractive, but just doesn't tell you enough that she finds you attractive. Yes, I can see where that would make things awkward. This hasn't been an issue in my relationship with my fiance. Not sure if it will be someday, but I'm not one to comment much on men's looks outside of the person I'm with. If I'm gushing over another guy in my life...why am I engaged to someone else? lol I guess that's how I process it, in some way.  Have you told her it bothers you?


----------



## samyeagar

EllisRedding said:


> Why is that, do you think your W is just so comfortable (complacent?) with you that she feels like she doesn't need to compliment you (i.e. you should already know how she feels)?


I think that's absolutely part of it, and adding in the actions, in this case the actions are also the words, can be freely expressed about others leave feelings of being taken for granted.


----------



## samyeagar

*Deidre* said:


> Okay. So, she tells you about other men she finds attractive, but just doesn't tell you enough that she finds you attractive. Yes, I can see where that would make things awkward. This hasn't been an issue in my relationship with my fiance. Not sure if it will be someday, but I'm not one to comment much on men's looks outside of the person I'm with. If I'm gushing over another guy in my life...why am I engaged to someone else? lol I guess that's how I process it, in some way.  *Have you told her it bothers you*?


Numerous times  This really is the only significant conflict point in our relationship.


----------



## *Deidre*

samyeagar said:


> Numerous times  This really is the only significant conflict point in our relationship.


Yea, I think it makes sense that it bothers you, definitely. I guess I just don't see the need to broadcast every thought I have to my fiance. Our relationship is still new but I always want this feeling of newness, I don't want either of us to take the other for granted some day.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> but I'm not one to comment much on men's looks outside of the person I'm with.


Honestly I never quite understood what the benefit is of telling your SO this so same boat as you.


----------



## *Deidre*

EllisRedding said:


> Honestly I never quite understood what the benefit is of telling your SO this so same boat as you.


From knowing friends of mine who have done this, all it ever really did, was create division in the relationship, the SO to never feel good enough, to question if their partner was interested in others, and jealousy. Nothing positive came from it, and that to me, wasn't because their SO's were insecure, it just happened so often with a few of them, that it naturally called the relationship into question. I think that there are soooo many more gratifying things to be doing and talking about in a healthy relationship, than how you'd love to be banging your co worker or neighbor or some random celeb. lol Seems sophomoric to me.


----------



## Blondilocks

"From knowing friends of mine who have done this" Did these friends ever share why they do this?


----------



## lifeistooshort

samyeagar said:


> Numerous times  This really is the only significant conflict point in our relationship.


Sam, it's been my impression from reading many of your posts on the subject that your wife is insecure and jealous of your ex, and looks for ways to maintain the emotional upper hand. 

You've said that she's always considered herself the more desirable partner prior to you. 

The whole talking about other men, talking about exes. ....they're emotional weapons for her, designed to keep you in your place and to make her feel better. Don't think for a minute she doesn't know what she's doing. 

That doesn't make her an awful person, just an extremely insecure one that can't handle a relationship with a guy who's at least on equal desirability footing with her. 

You know that my hb also used exes as an emotional weapon, but even he wouldn't start with other women right in front of me unless it was relevant to whatever discussion we might be having. IE, so and so is an attractive woman and she could do better then her partner. THAT is relevant and appropriate. .... I'd fvck so and so if not for you isn't. 

I really think you should hand some of this back to her. I did it with my hb and of course he didn't like it. I guess it didn't occur to him that I might have stories too and some of them could involve big c0cks. .... if we're going to share. 

I'm sure he didn't want to know that, so needless to say he's much better about watching what comes out of his mouth these days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> From knowing friends of mine who have done this, all it ever really did, was create division in the relationship, the SO to never feel good enough, to question if their partner was interested in others, and jealousy. Nothing positive came from it, and that to me, wasn't because their SO's were insecure, it just happened so often with a few of them, that it naturally called the relationship into question. I think that there are soooo many more gratifying things to be doing and talking about in a healthy relationship, than how you'd love to be banging your co worker or neighbor or some random celeb. lol Seems sophomoric to me.


Yup. Perfect example, my wife has a great figure, especially when you factor in she has had 3 kids (big suckers too lol) and is 2 years removed from our 3rd. However, between kids and getting older naturally things are going to fall out of place over time, and no matter how secure she is in herself there will always be some insecurity with that. How would me pointing out attractive women in any way be beneficial to her is beyond me. Of course we are both going to find other people attractive, to expect otherwise would be stupid. To me, whether well intentioned or not, it just seems like planting a seed in your SO that there are other people out there. Part of this too, it really depends on how you are wording things, what exactly are you saying, and understanding how it may impact your SO (falling back on the whole transparency nonsense is just a cop out).


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> Sam, it's been my impression from reading many of your posts on the subject that your wife is insecure and jealous of your ex, and looks for ways to maintain the emotional upper hand.
> 
> You've said that she's always considered herself the more desirable partner prior to you.
> 
> The whole talking about other men, talking about exes. ....they're emotional weapons for her, designed to keep you in your place and to make her feel better. Don't think for a minute she doesn't know what she's doing.
> 
> That doesn't make her an awful person, just an extremely insecure one that can't handle a relationship with a guy who's at least on equal desirability footing with her.
> 
> You know that my hb also used exes as an emotional weapon, but even he wouldn't start with other women right in front of me unless it was relevant to whatever discussion we might be having. IE, so and so is an attractive woman and she could do better then her partner. THAT is relevant and appropriate. .... I'd fvck so and so if not for you isn't.
> 
> I really think you should hand some of this back to her. I did it with my hb and of course he didn't like it. I guess it didn't occur to him that I might have stories too and some of them could involve big c0cks. .... if we're going to share.
> 
> I'm sure he didn't want to know that, so needless to say he's much better about watching what comes out of his mouth these days.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL! Your big c0ck story always cracks me up!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> LOL! Your big c0ck story always cracks me up!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I aim to please 

But seriously, I've probably mentioned that the guy with said c0ck wasn't half the man hb is and certainly didn't know how to use it. Guys like that can view the size as all there is to it.

But I wouldn't tell hb that, otherwise how could I stick it in his face when he wants to play games with the emotional weapon stuff? 

And to think hb says I don't plan 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## *Deidre*

EllisRedding said:


> Yup. Perfect example, my wife has a great figure, especially when you factor in she has had 3 kids (big suckers too lol) and is 2 years removed from our 3rd. However, between kids and getting older naturally things are going to fall out of place over time, and no matter how secure she is in herself there will always be some insecurity with that. How would me pointing out attractive women in any way be beneficial to her is beyond me. Of course we are both going to find other people attractive, to expect otherwise would be stupid. To me, whether well intentioned or not, it just seems like planting a seed in your SO that there are other people out there. Part of this too, it really depends on how you are wording things, what exactly are you saying, and understanding how it may impact your SO (falling back on the whole transparency nonsense is just a cop out).


Exactly! It isn't that we don't notice other attractive people, we are human. But my thought is, if your conversations are swirling around other people, and arguing over it...maybe it's time to take an inventory of the relationship itself, and not chalk it up to...well, my partner is insecure.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> Exactly! It isn't that we don't notice other attractive people, we are human. But my thought is, if your conversations are swirling around other people, and arguing over it...maybe it's time to take an inventory of the relationship itself, and not chalk it up to...well, my partner is insecure.


IDK, it sounds to me like you are insecure about being insecure, which being a double negative could mean you are actually secure ...


----------



## always_alone

I still don't quite get why thinking it is okay, but saying it is not.

I mean, yes, maybe if I were completely clueless about it all, I would at least think I was happier.

But is that sort of ignorance bliss?

Knowing my SO thinks it means the same thing to me as if he were to say it.


----------



## *Deidre*

Blondilocks said:


> "From knowing friends of mine who have done this" Did these friends ever share why they do this?


No, I would witness it sometimes, and on occasion, alcohol was involved, so she was less inhibited to blurt things out. But, one of my friends who did this often with her husband, and is now divorced, would tell me then that she ''knows'' he gets hit on, why doesn't he tell me? I can't help but wonder if she would say things about other men to get him to open up? Idk. 

Her efforts didn't pay off, he got ''sick of her games'', was what the grapevine rumors were. 

So, if people want to keep chatting about how they wish they were banging others...be careful what you wish for. lol


----------



## EllisRedding

always_alone said:


> I still don't quite get why thinking it is okay, but saying it is not.
> 
> I mean, yes, maybe if I were completely clueless about it all, I would at least think I was happier.
> 
> But is that sort of ignorance bliss?
> 
> Knowing my SO thinks it means the same thing to me as if he were to say it.


I think what some of us are saying, we will always find other people attractive, that is not a question, no one is saying that is not ok. It still comes down to what do you hope to accomplish though by constantly telling your SO this? If I were to point out every attractive person I saw to my W how does that in any way benefit our relationship? Likewise, if she did the same to me? Does my W need to know every little thing that goes through my head? Do I need to know every little thing that goes through her? Neither of us are looking to hide anything, but it has been clearly shown time and time again where one person uses "their thoughts" as a way to tear down their SO (whether they want to admit it or not).


----------



## *Deidre*

EllisRedding said:


> IDK, it sounds to me like you are insecure about being insecure, which being a double negative could mean you are actually secure ...


lol No, I'm not insecure, I just view it as games. If my fiance told me that he would consider marrying another woman at work, if it weren't for me being in his life, I wouldn't feel threatened, I'd leap more to the idea that he's a game player, and wants to see how I react. No one ain't got time for that! :laugh:


----------



## always_alone

EllisRedding said:


> I think what some of us are saying, we will always find other people attractive, that is not a question, no one is saying that is not ok. It still comes down to what do you hope to accomplish though by constantly telling your SO this? If I were to point out every attractive person I saw to my W how does that in any way benefit our relationship? Likewise, if she did the same to me? Does my W need to know every little thing that goes through my head? Do I need to know every little thing that goes through her? Neither of us are looking to hide anything, but it has been clearly shown time and time again where one person uses "their thoughts" as a way to tear down their SO (whether they want to admit it or not).


I don't think anyone needs to know every little thing that runs through someone's head. A huge chunk of it is just garbage.

But if my SO is doing a lot of noticing, and thinking, and wondering, I absolutely do think it benefits me to know. Perhaps not the relationship. But me. 

I personally do not want to be investing much into a relationship with someone whose head is continually turned. I also want the choice/power to make an informed decision about the degree of head turning that I can accept. I'm guessing my SO would agree, and the main reason he doesn't ask me is that he makes the assumption that my head isn't really turned by others in any real way. If he were to find out I was hot for his best friend, then I'm betting he would be upset.

I personally also don't want to be second guessing what is really going on or pretending that our relationship is actually something when it really isn't. Truth hurts. But it is still power.

Maybe I'm alone in this?


----------



## *Deidre*

always_alone said:


> I don't think anyone needs to know every little thing that runs through someone's head. A huge chunk of it is just garbage.
> 
> But if my SO is doing a lot of noticing, and thinking, and wondering, I absolutely do think it benefits me to know. Perhaps not the relationship. But me.
> 
> I personally do not want to be investing much into a relationship with someone whose head is continually turned. I also want the choice/power to make an informed decision about the degree of head turning that I can accept. I'm guessing my SO would agree, and tell main reason he doesn't much care is that he makes the assumption that my head isn't really turned by others in any real way.
> 
> I personally also don't want to be second guessing what is really going on or pretending that our relationship is actually something when it really isn't. Truth hurts. But it is still power.
> 
> Maybe I'm alone in this?


I think this is an excellent thing to bring into the discussion. Yea, if someone continuously is talking about others, it could easily lead one to the thoughts you highlight here. I had never considered this thought process, think it is very insightful.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> lol No, I'm not insecure,


Denial ain't just a river in Egypt :moon:

OK, I am done being a knucklehead lol


----------



## EllisRedding

always_alone said:


> I don't think anyone needs to know every little thing that runs through someone's head. A huge chunk of it is just garbage.
> 
> But if my SO is doing a lot of noticing, and thinking, and wondering, I absolutely do think it benefits me to know. Perhaps not the relationship. But me.
> 
> I personally do not want to be investing much into a relationship with someone whose head is continually turned. I also want the choice/power to make an informed decision about the degree of head turning that I can accept. I'm guessing my SO would agree, and the main reason he doesn't ask me is that he makes the assumption that my head isn't really turned by others in any real way. If he were to find out I was hot for his best friend, then I'm betting he would be upset.
> 
> I personally also don't want to be second guessing what is really going on or pretending that our relationship is actually something when it really isn't. Truth hurts. But it is still power.
> 
> Maybe I'm alone in this?


I can see where you are coming from to an extent, but it may also be dependent on your current relationship and experience in other relationships. In the situation with my W there is zero benefit to either of us pointing out every time we see someone attractive. However, let's say all of a sudden I start to notice a female, can't stop thinking about her. For me that is a red flag, something I need to first really think about internally and analyze why I am having those thoughts. Once I have done that I can then determine if this is something more serious, and if so it would warrant speaking to my W. That is the trust component that my W and I have.


----------



## MEM2020

Always,

Hold the fvckin presses. 

Time to synchronize terms, definitions and therefore overall situations.

This is what's happening. Your SO (who is fvcking with you, and pretending that he has no idea why you're upset):

Expresses interest in others via body language and facial expressions. He does this in a very blatant manner. 

AND he does this in a context where he has 'lost interest' in you. 

He ALSO verbalizes this interest. But at that point he is merely confirming what you already know, and perhaps adding a bit of detail as to what particularly he finds attractive in another person. 







always_alone said:


> I don't think anyone needs to know every little thing that runs through someone's head. A huge chunk of it is just garbage.
> 
> But if my SO is doing a lot of noticing, and thinking, and wondering, I absolutely do think it benefits me to know. Perhaps not the relationship. But me.
> 
> I personally do not want to be investing much into a relationship with someone whose head is continually turned. I also want the choice/power to make an informed decision about the degree of head turning that I can accept. I'm guessing my SO would agree, and the main reason he doesn't ask me is that he makes the assumption that my head isn't really turned by others in any real way. If he were to find out I was hot for his best friend, then I'm betting he would be upset.
> 
> I personally also don't want to be second guessing what is really going on or pretending that our relationship is actually something when it really isn't. Truth hurts. But it is still power.
> 
> Maybe I'm alone in this?


----------



## FaithinVisionsRealized

In reference to expressing an attraction to the opposite sex, It depends on several factors, how it is expressed and what is the motive behind expressing this? Let's look at how it is expressed as saying comments like "I would jump him if I was not with you, I would sleep with him/ her, He is better looking than you/ and or any other comments like this would be detrimental to your marriage/ encouraging your partner. What is the motive behind expressing this? It would be appropriate to admit to having emotional/ sexual attraction to someone else if you feel there is an unmet need in your relationship and you are seeking that affection from your spouse. This would need to be expressed in order for intimacy to be re-established in your relationship. Is your motive to degrade your spouse, are you resentful toward them for not meeting your needs, feeling insecure about yourself/ relationship? These would be red flags and inappropriate to express attraction to another if this is the pure motive. Express instead your deep need for intimacy and what you enjoy about your spouse. Blessings.


----------



## I Don't Know

always_alone said:


> I still don't quite get why thinking it is okay, but saying it is not.
> 
> I mean, yes, maybe if I were completely clueless about it all, I would at least think I was happier.
> 
> But is that sort of ignorance bliss?
> 
> Knowing my SO thinks it means the same thing to me as if he were to say it.


I think to me it's the same but different. Having the thought in your mind is "in a world where I didn't have you...." so you're still first choice. When it gets to the point that there is a need to mention it, it becomes much more like "if only I wasn't stuck with your a$$..." or "if only Jason Aldeen would actually go for it..."

I don't LIKE the fact that either happens, but thinking it is (somewhat) unavoidable and much less hurtful.


----------



## I Don't Know

When I say thinking it, I'm talking about a passing thought of attraction not dwelling and fantasizing about it.


----------



## EllisRedding

I Don't Know said:


> When I say thinking it, I'm talking about a passing thought of attraction not dwelling and fantasizing about it.


Agreed. To me that is where the OPs wife crossed the line where it wasn't just about some dude being hot, but also going into details about the marriage possibilities, etc..


----------



## think positive

OP, 

Was it chicken or the egg? I mean what your wife said about someone she is in contact with "I would marry him...." seems like a very passive aggressive, mean or vindictive thing to say..." I agree with others, it is one thing to admire someone who is attractive, it is another to make statements that you would actually want to marry them... to me this goes beyond full disclosure and is seems to have the intention of making you jealous, insecure or hurting you. 

I mean it is one thing to coment about JaLo, it is another to describe what you would want to do to her... 

Give the extreme level of hypocracy here, is it possible that she is retaliating for your comments? Sometime women want us to read their minds or see if we are paying attention. Has she always been this vocal?

You may get the most accurate feedback if you edit your post then indicate that you have done so with a reply, this way responders will get more insight to respond.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> This is what's happening. Your SO (who is fvcking with you, and pretending that he has no idea why you're upset):


I don't think so. I understand why you have this spin, but I don't think it is any deliberate attempt to cut me down, or play games, or sh1t test me. 

I think what I'm seeing is transparency, who he really is, what he really thinks. And yes, it kinda freaks me out. But I think it might be better than just pretending. (Although, TBH, I'm still a bit undecided on the last bit.)


----------



## always_alone

I'll add that I'm inclined to think that a lot of what we do in the name of sparing other people's feelings is actually to protect ourselves, to keep us safe and in control.

This is just a general observation, not pointing fingers. Except maybe at myself, as I I know I've been guilty of this on occasion.


----------



## Buddy400

always_alone said:


> I'm not a mind-reader, MEM, and so I don't know what his intentions were. I can only tell the story from his side as he told it to me.
> 
> And that is that he had no intention of hurting me. What was the benefit? He was just expressing an opinion, which began as surprise that she was single.
> 
> I'm supposed to already know that it would only be if I weren't in the picture that he would go after her.


Actually, if my wife said "if I didn't already have you I'd fvck him", I *really would *interpret that as him being second-best (behind me). I'm pretty sure she'd react the same way.

But then, we're both very secure. For the most part, I don't think either of us is very interested in testing that.


----------



## *Deidre*

EllisRedding said:


> Denial ain't just a river in Egypt :moon:
> 
> OK, I am done being a knucklehead lol


:sleeping: 

oops, what did you say? :grin2:


----------



## *Deidre*

always_alone said:


> I'll add that I'm inclined to think that a lot of what we do in the name of sparing other people's feelings is actually to protect ourselves, to keep us safe and in control.
> 
> This is just a general observation, not pointing fingers. Except maybe at myself, as I I know I've been guilty of this on occasion.


That could be. i've witnessed women hit on my fiance, and he has seen men hit on me. It's interesting, he will step in, and put his arm around me, and the guy just goes away. (my fiance is intimidating looking) But, I don't do that when he has been hit on. I sort of watch from a distance and smile. Idk why I do that. He will abruptly end the conversation, the girl will walk away, and then...I will come up. I think if I'm honest, I'd rather see what he will do without my urging. Because who we are when no one is looking...is who we really are. 

ETA, that is why I don't want his passwords, etc. I want him to do the right things by us, without me ''watching.''


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> ETA, that is why I don't want his passwords, etc. I want him to do the right things by us, without me ''watching.''


Hmmmm ..... would your POV change if for example you found out your fiance had been up to some shenanigans on FB or other social media sites (so getting passwords would be part of regaining trust)? I have thought about this as well, and I would guess similar to you I have never had a reason to be concerned about my Ws online activities, or vice versa. If she really wanted to check up on me I typically leave everything logged in on my PC. If she did explicitly ask me for my password though, she would have to do some serious explaining about why she wanted. Likewise I don't know her passwords or ask unless she wants me to log into one of her sites to help with something.

One of my friend's W seems to be very insecure about stuff like this (to my knowledge there have never been any issues in their marriage for cause of suspicion). Even though she has a cell phone she will insist on using his periodically to surf the web (even though she has hers). From what he has told me, she will make up some excuse about why she needs to use his and needs to know the password. At work we would know when she was calling b/c his phone would ring, and if he wasn't at his desk it would ring every 5 minutes until he picked up. We used to joke that she was hanging out outside our office with a sniper rifle keeping a close eye on him  . Yeah, that kind of marriage wouldn't last long with me lol.


----------



## *Deidre*

EllisRedding said:


> Hmmmm ..... would your POV change if for example you found out your fiance had been up to some shenanigans on FB or other social media sites (so getting passwords would be part of regaining trust)? I have thought about this as well, and I would guess similar to you I have never had a reason to be concerned about my Ws online activities, or vice versa. If she really wanted to check up on me I typically leave everything logged in on my PC. If she did explicitly ask me for my password though, she would have to do some serious explaining about why she wanted. Likewise I don't know her passwords or ask unless she wants me to log into one of her sites to help with something.
> 
> One of my friend's W seems to be very insecure about stuff like this (to my knowledge there have never been any issues in their marriage for cause of suspicion). Even though she has a cell phone she will insist on using his periodically to surf the web (even though she has hers). From what he has told me, she will make up some excuse about why she needs to use his and needs to know the password. At work we would know when she was calling b/c his phone would ring, and if he wasn't at his desk it would ring every 5 minutes until he picked up. We used to joke that she was hanging out outside our office with a sniper rifle keeping a close eye on him  . Yeah, that kind of marriage wouldn't last long with me lol.


I look at it this way. I don't want to babysit a man. Once the betrayal happens, I'm pretty much done. I've seen the person's character at that point, and providing me with passwords and such will not create a different character, than what already has been shown to me. If someone 'changes' who they really are out of fear that they're being monitored, what has the BS really gained?


----------



## MEM2020

All this stuff feels completely different when your partner isn't into you. 

I do remember when M2 was in love with the OM, she definitely treated me a lot different (worse). That was about a two year thing. And it's partly why I'm so determined on this whole theme of sex. 

Because - that forced M2 to make a decision at least once a week. She had to decide whether she was still 'in' this marriage. 









Buddy400 said:


> Actually, if my wife said "if I didn't already have you I'd fvck him", I *really would *interpret that as him being second-best (behind me). I'm pretty sure she'd react the same way.
> 
> But then, we're both very secure. For the most part, I don't think either of us is very interested in testing that.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> If someone 'changes' who they really are out of fear that they're being monitored, what has the BS really gained?


You now have their passwords, and can now wreak havoc posting as them >


----------



## *Deidre*

EllisRedding said:


> You now have their passwords, and can now wreak havoc posting as them >


that changes everything!

brb...asking my fiance for his passwords right now!
>


----------



## Buddy400

MEM11363 said:


> All this stuff feels completely different when your partner isn't into you.


Agreed


----------



## heartsbeating

always_alone said:


> I don't think so. I understand why you have this spin, but I don't think it is any deliberate attempt to cut me down, or play games, or sh1t test me.
> 
> I think what I'm seeing is transparency, who he really is, what he really thinks. And yes, it kinda freaks me out. But I think it might be better than just pretending. (Although, TBH, I'm still a bit undecided on the last bit.)


Only you know your relationship and the ins and outs of the dynamic between you. Take this with a pinch of salt. If his intention, as you understand it, is not to hurt you what occurs when he learns that his _actions_ and words do leave you feeling the way that you do? Are there attempts on his part to create a healthier dynamic, stop with the porn, consider why he's preventing himself connecting with you? I wonder if he is able to be transparent with himself. 

And what about loving thoughts/transparency - where you might not realize he's actually thinking and feeling a certain way about you until he shares that with you, verbally or otherwise?


----------



## Marc878

Maybe she should go back and finish high school.


----------



## jld

Marc878 said:


> Maybe she should go back and finish high school.


I don't think treating her with disrespect will help him. Patience and understanding could, though.


----------



## MEM2020

Ellis,
I like this a lot. Crudely - folks refer to the big head and the little head. But aside from being sexist - it just isn't quite right. 

Better to frame this as the spirit and the chassis. 

At a chassis (purely visual) level - I'd say my response pattern is 1/5. This is just raw biology. I've never had a woman get into my head at this level. Never fixated on someone solely from seeing them. 

I've had less than a handful of women get into my head - since meeting M2. She knows about all of them. The context was identical in each case:

Me: This is a situation that is creating a troublesome level of distraction. So I'm going to avoid woman XYZ going forward.

M2 is an absolute champ where sexual fidelity is concerned. So in each case - she said the same thing: thanks for telling me - I trust you.... 

I wish she was as sane - where non sexual relationships are concerned. 





EllisRedding said:


> I can see where you are coming from to an extent, but it may also be dependent on your current relationship and experience in other relationships. In the situation with my W there is zero benefit to either of us pointing out every time we see someone attractive. However, let's say all of a sudden I start to notice a female, can't stop thinking about her. For me that is a red flag, something I need to first really think about internally and analyze why I am having those thoughts. Once I have done that I can then determine if this is something more serious, and if so it would warrant speaking to my W. That is the trust component that my W and I have.


----------



## NobodySpecial

MEM11363 said:


> All this stuff feels completely different when your partner isn't into you.


MEM connects hammer directly to the nail head.


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> That's actually a good idea. But just to be clear - I don't see this as an exercise in risk management.
> 
> Perhaps I haven't explained the dynamic clearly enough. Imagine if you will, that M2 meets a doctor at work, falls for him and begins an affair.
> 
> Her first dilemma is the biggest. Don't think she's wired to sleep with two people simultaneously. So that means - she has to stop sleeping with me. And such a thing - triggers - a very short conversation. Because that type of major shift - clearly isn't about me. So the ensuing conversation goes like this: Why are you avoiding sleeping with me?
> 
> Now - for those of you who don't know me - a brief explanation is in order. I'm like those folks on the tv series 'lie to me'. Meaning I am fluent in human micro expressions. And in deception detection. I stopped casually reading M2's mind years ago at her request. And that's fair - trust me on this - true telepathy can feel like a type of violation. Your thoughts are no longer private.
> 
> But a situations like this - if sex stopped - that's different. I start asking why in a quiet environment - face to face. Close enough to pick up on involuntary stuff like pupil size.
> 
> Avoidance is not effective in a situation like that. For instance:
> Question: why are you avoiding sex?
> Answer:'I don't know'
> This would produce a full body laugh from me, followed by a very soft toned question: Do you want to have an open marriage?
> 
> See - the thing about that - M2 is jealous enough - that the thought of such a thing produces a borderline homocidal response.
> 
> This is her vulnerability - not mine. This type scenario opens up a pandora scenario that pushes her into a very bad place. Not me. Her.
> 
> Reason I find TAM so fascinating is that people focus on the oddest things. Folks in sexless marriages - worrying about infidelity. Seems beyond strange to me. If your marriage is broken - fix THAT. If you can't fix it, it's over.
> 
> Let me quantify how odd this seems to me. An awful lot of guys on here - give them a choice of a sexless marriage for 10 years OR a very passionate 10 year marriage - where their spouse has a one night stand at the mid point.
> 
> Clearly I'm the person with 'non standard' wiring. But if M2 confessed out of the blue to having a one night stand 10 years ago - I'd ask a few questions. And yeah yeah I'd be mad for a short while - but one mistake in 26 years is just that. An outlier.
> 
> My questions would be: did you use protection? Have you stayed in touch? Have you made an effort to avoid that type situation since? If the answers were: yes no and yes, then it's done.


Sorry MEM, been away.

But you seem awfully OK with the thought of a ONS if you got what you wanted from her the rest of the time.

And I find that odd. Because what you're saying is basically that you're OK with a pretty 'meh' wife.

Mixed with you being OK with a fairly 'meh' attraction response from her...

To ask a simple question very directly... Don't you think you're worth more?


----------



## MEM2020

Attraction is a multi faceted beast. 

M2 is intensely attracted to me - in a kind of overall sense. You and I both simply wish for her to feel more lust for me - than she does. 

She absolutely would have more sex with me - if I initiated. 

Lately though she has been more - lustful. After Saturday mornings romp - she was grinding on me later that afternoon. 

I honestly don't know what produced that reaction. 




marduk said:


> Sorry MEM, been away.
> 
> But you seem awfully OK with the thought of a ONS if you got what you wanted from her the rest of the time.
> 
> And I find that odd. Because what you're saying is basically that you're OK with a pretty 'meh' wife.
> 
> Mixed with you being OK with a fairly 'meh' attraction response from her...
> 
> To ask a simple question very directly... Don't you think you're worth more?


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> Attraction is a multi faceted beast.
> 
> M2 is intensely attracted to me - in a kind of overall sense. You and I both simply wish for her to feel more lust for me - than she does.
> 
> She absolutely would have more sex with me - if I initiated.
> 
> Lately though she has been more - lustful. After Saturday mornings romp - she was grinding on me later that afternoon.
> 
> I honestly don't know what produced that reaction.


Did this really answer what @marduk was asking?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## always_alone

farsidejunky said:


> Did this really answer what @marduk was asking?


Is there a way to answer what marduk is saying? By his standards, we're all "meh". Including probably even himself. 

And if we're all "meh", maybe we should be grateful for what we have instead of pretending that there is some sort of ideal out there, just waiting around the corner....


----------



## farsidejunky

always_alone said:


> Is there a way to answer what marduk is saying? By his standards, we're all "meh". Including probably even himself.
> 
> And if we're all "meh", maybe we should be grateful for what we have instead of pretending that there is some sort of ideal out there, just waiting around the corner....


When answering the 2nd and 3rd questions, this may be fair. However, it does not really address the 1st question.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Attraction is a multi faceted beast.
> 
> M2 is intensely attracted to me - in a kind of overall sense. You and I both simply wish for her to feel more lust for me - than she does.
> 
> She absolutely would have more sex with me - if I initiated.
> 
> Lately though she has been more - lustful. After Saturday mornings romp - she was grinding on me later that afternoon.
> 
> I honestly don't know what produced that reaction.


I love you, man. 

But that's not an answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

The day to day - is excellent. 

Happy, fun, engaged and high touch. Are you saying - I should be unhappy - because I don't get M2 as hot and bothered as she gets me. 





farsidejunky said:


> Did this really answer what @marduk was asking?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

Always,
Here's the thing - I genuinely crave M2's company. Always have. That's kind of a big thing for me - as - I generally prefer people in small doses. 

Besides - here's an example of the gestalt. We have a dinner date Friday night. And yes - we were almost certainly going to connect. 

Stupid me - leave my credit card at the restaurant. We go back and they give me conflicting messages, ultimately claim they can't find it.

I'm feeling super embarrassed. Definitely killed the mood for me. M2 was super, duper nice about the whole thing. Must have scratched my back for a solid hour while we watched 'Happy Valley' in bed.

Saturday morning - she ripped what little clothes I sleep in - off of me. Later that day I got my card back - restaurant finally found it. 

So am I really going to grind her in an area where we are a bit out of sync on frequency? Abso not. 






always_alone said:


> Is there a way to answer what marduk is saying? By his standards, we're all "meh". Including probably even himself.
> 
> And if we're all "meh", maybe we should be grateful for what we have instead of pretending that there is some sort of ideal out there, just waiting around the corner....


----------



## Blondilocks

I believe that MEM was speaking of a past affair - not an affair in the present. He may not be so cavalier if the situation were present.

Does he deserve a woman who is crawling all over him day and night? Maybe, he might not want that. What he deserves and what he accepts are two different animals.


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> The day to day - is excellent.
> 
> Happy, fun, engaged and high touch. Are you saying - I should be unhappy - because I don't get M2 as hot and bothered as she gets me.


Not at all.

Your answer to three direct questions was filled with platitudes more than an answer, and was geared towards the second and third questions, while completely avoiding the first. 

Was your intent to have me discern the answers from that?

Frankly you don't have to answer any of them, and you can take the A_A approach of telling me in as many words to go pound sand.

But I gave you the benefit of a direct answer in my post, and am now asking for reciprocity. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

marduk said:


> sorry mem, been away.
> 
> But you seem awfully ok with the thought of a ons if you got what you wanted from her the rest of the time.
> 
> *I accept that people arent perfect. This type of event wouldnt cause me to question the whole marriage or fear that it was coming unravelled at her end. *
> 
> And i find that odd. Because what you're saying is basically that you're ok with a pretty 'meh' wife.
> 
> *Marduk - this is where you and m2 sound perfectly alike. She views any type of cheating husband as at best a meh partner. I dont share that view. *
> 
> Mixed with you being ok with a fairly 'meh' attraction response from her...
> I do not blame her for that.
> 
> To ask a simple question very directly... Don't you think you're worth more?



*no. 

She loves me and is very loving to me. 

Plus she gets a big good will credit for the near dailly sex we had for the first decade and the gentle drop off in frequency during the second decade. *


----------



## Blondilocks

MEM, why don't you view a cheating husband as 'meh'? Meh has to be the least inflammatory descriptor of this critter I've ever heard.


----------



## MEM2020

Blond,
Poor choice of words. Take gender out of it. 

I think someone can be an excellent partner - who made a mistake 'in the moment'. 

Clearly I am I n the minority here. And frankly this isn't a self serving thing - as I'm not wired for that type ONS behavior. And frankly that isn't something M2 would forgive. 

I just refuse to mark someone down - for a single outlier like that. 

But I accept that others feel differently and that M2 would mark me down brutally and without hesitation over it. 




Blondilocks said:


> MEM, why don't you view a cheating husband as 'meh'? Meh has to be the least inflammatory descriptor of this critter I've ever heard.


----------



## MEM2020

Besides it doesn't cause me to be anxious. 

Because - I can have M2 whenever I want her. Not as 'often' as I would like - but on any given night - if I initiate it either happens that night or worst case the next night. 

Part of it is I am just not aggressive. That is on me. 



Blondilocks said:


> I believe that MEM was speaking of a past affair - not an affair in the present. He may not be so cavalier if the situation were present.
> 
> Does he deserve a woman who is crawling all over him day and night? Maybe, he might not want that. What he deserves and what he accepts are two different animals.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Would marry him if it were not for you?

I would tell my wife, Damn, I'm sorry for holding you back.....I will be filing for divorce in the morning since you want him so bad and I'm in the way. I'll help you with the PROBLEM you have with me. So from now on you do not have to say, "If it weren't for you"


----------



## Divinely Favored

EllisRedding said:


> stacylong said:
> 
> 
> 
> Contrast that to her telling me that she saw a man in her business meeting who she said was so attractive that she could or could see herself marrying him if it were not for me. The only issue was that he was a mixed race and her parents were highly prejudice and she would not know how she could explain this man to her mother.
> 
> 
> 
> WTF, how is any of this ok to say to your spouse???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your wife sounds like a child, plain and simply.
Click to expand...

The fact she thought it out to this extent is disturbing. It's no different than if you made a like comment.

How would she feel if you watch some little tight bodied hottie walk by and say, "Ya know babe, I would tear that fine ass up, if it were not for you"


----------



## SimplyAmorous

@stacylong said:


> *Contrast that to her telling me that she saw a man in her business meeting who she said was so attractive that she could or could see herself marrying him if it were not for me*.


I haven't read through all the pages here ... this is so over the top ! and really it's just LUST.. she doesn't even KNOW this guy- and throws out "would marry him"... . for what purpose.. is she trying to get a rise out of you?? 

I read in your opening post...she couldn't handle you're dishing it back, expressing when you've visually been swept up... your wife is surely lacking some self awareness...to not see her own actions in this.. if she can do it.. why in the world can't [email protected]# 

I feel there is *a Line of "Respect"* in healthy relationships...where we Understand that even though we find others physically attractive, might even be a shiver shooting down our spines in a moment (hey we're only human.. who doesn't enjoy a little eye candy)... 

Yet still in our hearts, no one can replace our husband or wife... our best friend, our lover, who has been there for us through the good times & bad, it's so much more than just a fleeting fantasy ....hopefully we feel this way.. 

If this is going on.. we wouldn't want to DO or SAY anything to make our spouses feel "lessor" in our eyes...if we did, we'd feel BAD, we'd catch ourselves (self awareness) & want to make it right....reassuring that we love & want them above anyone else..

I, too, have to wonder why a women would do this -she can't think these comments are Ok to openly say -like water rolling off your back.. is she trying to make you jealous somehow.. again.. getting a rise out of you.. are these sh** tests ?


----------



## Luke/5

stacylong said:


> Hello to everyone. I am new to this board and I had a question that I need an answer to. Everyone here seems to be genuine in their discussions and comments so I felt posting here would be a good idea.
> 
> In my previous marriage I never mentioned when I found another woman attractive because I felt it would be hurtful to wife. My first wife only told me on rare occasions when she was attracted to someone and it was always done in what I think was a tasteful and sensitive manner.
> 
> In my new marriage the game has changed. My new wife for whatever reason thinks its ok to continually tell me or point out men that she thinks are very attractive. Very early in our relationship she would use the term HOT!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Her delivery of the word hot was a very guttural sound as if she were an animal in heat and would jump his bones on the spot. I told her that I am aware she will still notice men but would appreciate her not practically having an orgasm when she found someone else who she thought was attractive. To give her credit she has become very tasteful in her choice of words now when she describes other men that she is attracted to. But does it make it right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know fact I do not have the same liberty to express to her when I think another woman is attractive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I once mentioned to her that Jennifer Lopez had the body of a Goddess when we watched television one night after my wife insisted on knowing what I thought of her. Of course my wife was deeply hurt that I expressed my attraction to another woman who I would never met. She even said that I would forsake my marriage vows and have sex with Jennifer if I ever had the chance.
> 
> Contrast that to her telling me that she saw a man in her business meeting who she said was so attractive that she could or could see herself marrying him if it were not for me. The only issue was that he was a mixed race and her parents were highly prejudice and she would not know how she could explain this man to her mother.
> 
> I am being too sensitive or should my wife be more tactful about how and when she expresses her attraction to other men to me? Or is it ever ok to openly talk about your attraction to another person with your spouse? I would really love to hear from men and women on this subject.
> 
> Edit*****
> Forgot to mention in my first post. Her friend is single and she is looking for a relationship, they will get together and my wife will try to find her men. Very often they have conversations about who is good looking and who is not in my presence. I have corrected that problem by trying to not be with them for activities anymore.
> 
> UPDATE****
> 
> This update is in response to several questions from various posts that I have read.
> 
> Yes she would comment on men since the beginning of our relationship. Sometimes she would then say I think your hot to, otherwise I would not be with you.***Note*** that I did tell her very early on after maybe a week or two of her always commenting on how HOT other men were that I made it very clear that was not acceptable for me and I did not like it. So she immediately made an effort to change as far as her wording. After my talk with her she no longer used the term HOT or cut back a whole lot, and started to use the term attractive or good looking. In addition, she no longer acts like she is having an orgasm while she says it.
> 
> Why am I here? I personally thought that the scenario in which she talked about this other man was taking things way to far. Since she always accuses me of being too sensitive I wanted to see what the rest of the general population would think of such a scenario.
> 
> Do I think she would cheat? No. But if she did then I guess I have no one to blame but myself for trusting her. Personally I think she is just immature in that area and does not realize that while I am her best friend I am still her husband. I know she has eyes to see and so do I, its what you do with the thoughts that really matter.
> 
> Do I see myself as confident? Yes. I am also an Alpha male and don't believe in playing games. While I may not be a ten in my own eyes I have had enough women tell me in my adult life I am a very good looking man so confidence on my part is not an issue.


Hi, I think every once in awhile a comment shouldn't be a prob, but if it's all the time. I think it would make me uncomfortable also. Hope the best for u.


----------



## Divinely Favored

jld said:


> *Deidre* said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with people who think she is fantasizing out loud, or actually wanting to act on things. She is insecure?why are people saying the OP is insecure? She is the one that can?t bear to hear about how hot JLo is. Lol Sounds like the classic case of, can dish it out, but can?t take it. Her actions stem from insecurity. She is not happy with her body, she has said so. She sounds insecure and says things to make her husband insecure. It could be something for them to work on, but all the good sex in the world won?t cure your partner?s insecurities.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember he said he ignored her comments, gave her the massage, and the sex was great?
> 
> I think there is a lesson in there . . .
Click to expand...

Hell yes it was, she was probably fantasizing about coworker in the meeting.


----------



## always_alone

farsidejunky said:


> ...and you can take the A_A approach of telling me in as many words to go pound sand.


Wait a second....this was not at all what I was trying to say....


----------



## farsidejunky

always_alone said:


> Wait a second....this was not at all what I was trying to say....


Then I misread you and apologize.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## always_alone

SimplyAmorous said:


> If this is going on.. we wouldn't want to DO or SAY anything to make our spouses feel "lessor" in our eyes...if we did, we'd feel BAD, we'd catch ourselves (self awareness) & want to make it right....reassuring that we love & want them above anyone else..
> 
> I, too, have to wonder why a women would do this -she can't think these comments are Ok to openly say -like water rolling off your back.. is she trying to make you jealous somehow.. again.. getting a rise out of you.. are these sh** tests ?


But we are all just human, aren't we? And sometimes we think and feel things that might make our partner feel hurt.

And of course we can lie to them and pretend it's not happening, so that we can avoid rocking our cozy little boats.

But is this really so much better than honesty on the subject?

TBH, I don't even really know where I stand myself on these questions. But I do think they're worth asking. We will all differ in what we appreciate, can tolerate or accept. But surely if we want a good relationship we have to recognize our spouses are human, and may have very human feelings.


----------



## always_alone

farsidejunky said:


> Then I misread you and apologize.


And I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

From where I sit, MEM has never indicated that M2 is "meh" in any way. And marduk has given the distinct impression that his M2 would equally fall into that "meh" category, but that he does not view her as "meh.".

My SO has told me explicitly that he desires others, and he has a whole raft of women friends, including exes. He has said explicitly this "if it weren't for you" line that many here see as completely unacceptable. Presumably, then, he is "meh" too.

But maybe all thar "meh" is just being human. My SO has also told me that he could probably forgive me for cheating. He wouldn't like it, but he understands that people aren't perfect, and don"t always act perfectly. 

I dunno, I struggle with this. If I were that "meh", I would leave me in a heartbeat. But at the same time, I appreciate the forgiveness and understanding of my human failings.


----------



## samyeagar

always_alone said:


> But we are all just human, aren't we? And sometimes we think and feel things that might make our partner feel hurt.
> 
> And of course we can lie to them and pretend it's not happening, so that we can avoid rocking our cozy little boats.
> 
> But is this really so much better than honesty on the subject?
> 
> TBH, I don't even really know where I stand myself on these questions. But I do think they're worth asking. We will all differ in what we appreciate, can tolerate or accept. But surely if we want a good relationship we have to recognize our spouses are human, and may have very human feelings.


I suppose there is a bit of weighing out that needs to be done by both partners. Yes, we all have feelings, but it is how we deal with them that makes us human.

I get what you are saying that simply not verbalizing a thought does not make the thought disappear. It was still there, and I understand your suggestion that not verbalizing it is tantamount to lying by omission.

My take on it though...if the thought or feeling is not going to have any impact in any way, that simply having it will not translate into anything else, then one must carefully weigh the effects of translating those thoughts and feelings into the action of verbalizing them.

In a broader sense, once a thought or feeling is translated into action, even by simply verbalizing it, it is no longer under the control of the one who had the feeling in the first place.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

always_alone said:


> But we are all just human, aren't we? And sometimes we think and feel things that might make our partner feel hurt.
> 
> And of course we can lie to them and pretend it's not happening, so that we can avoid rocking our cozy little boats.
> 
> But is this really so much better than honesty on the subject?
> 
> TBH, I don't even really know where I stand myself on these questions. But I do think they're worth asking. *We will all differ in what we appreciate, can tolerate or accept. But surely if we want a good relationship we have to recognize our spouses are human, and may have very human feelings*.


It's really not an easy question... I look at myself & fully admit that that other men can catch my eye.. so why would I judge my husband for this.. we've had a number of conversations about it...due to TAM threads here... neither of us have been offended by the honesty ... I will admit when having these conversations.. we're generally laying in bed.. hands on each other... it's an intimate setting.. this helps.. 

I feel so much comes down to the assurance a couple feels (or struggles to feel) in what they share.. their history can build confidence or cause some insecurities ...What is a couple's foundation ?? If there has been indiscretions, feeling 2nd best, it plays a part in this... leaving us questioning.. and that can be very hurtful.. we all want to feel #1 ... 

My husband dang well knows my







& what we share.. *no one* could penetrate that.. some eye candy would leave me cold in comparison to him.. and the same goes for any beautiful woman he sees out & about...he's not one to "tap that" anyway, he's not flirtatious...and that means a lot to me.. I've never felt a little "eye candy" a threat .. (that's what he calls it, why I am using that term)...

I've shared this little story before.... some may feel this was "too much" on my end.. but he was all well & good with it..

Yrs ago now.. we were on a little romantic get away..hiking on a walking trail, Hocking hills Ohio (beautiful by the way)... this young guy & his Girlfriend come walking past.. 
...







... he looked like a young Axle Rose, red bandanna, long blonde hair, blue jeans, boots... yeah I could be his Mom.. but ...







... anyway.. I didn't say anything.... but as he walked past.. I turned around and started walking back that way, like I wanted to get another shot of the Falls we just came from..... 

My husband says to me... "I know what you're looking at"....he's grinning.. he just KNOWS ME.. I laugh .. telling him he knows me so well... then he tells me he was checking out his girlfriend.. we both laugh... he puts his arm around me, we're heading back.. I pull him tight, squeeze his a** & tell him he's the only man for me.. 

And I MEAN THAT.. (my lord those other guys probably drink, endless array of women at their feet, so not my type, they just look good).... he knows this all too well... there wasn't a hint of anything bad between us in that exchange.. and it was honest !

Another time.. we're watching porn together.. he seems to enjoy watching my face more than looking at the porn (he doesn't care to see the men in it).. I look at him & say "tell me the truth.. does it bother you at all that I enjoy looking at these other men on the screen?"..... I loved his response.. he says .. "you're not leaving for the studio when I'm at work , are you?".. basically.. so long as I'm not doing any of these guys.... it's all saved for him.. he's good.. 

I guess he makes it really easy to just BE ME.. he's never felt threatened.. he has said if I went on & on about other men , yeah that would be disrespectful.. between us.... it's more these little exchanges -asking each other how we feel....I know his type.. and have even pointed out some women to him.. yeah I am weird .. I mean we both notice on the beach.. it's just normal behavior.. 

He's admitted something to me, fantasy wise...that I would bet some wives would find disrespectful to say..but I wanted his honesty... I wasn't even surprised.. I even thanked him for sharing that.. once I got mad at him for not opening up about his fantases while playing a game.. so to me. that was progress.. I was appreciative of it.. I am happy we can go these places with each other..


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> *no.
> 
> She loves me and is very loving to me.
> 
> Plus she gets a big good will credit for the near dailly sex we had for the first decade and the gentle drop off in frequency during the second decade. *


I think you're missing my point. 

My point is not to say you should dump your wife if she disclosed a one night stand a decade ago. 

My point is that you seem very willing to accept average. 

When you're anything but average.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> Is there a way to answer what marduk is saying? By his standards, we're all "meh". Including probably even himself.
> 
> And if we're all "meh", maybe we should be grateful for what we have instead of pretending that there is some sort of ideal out there, just waiting around the corner....


I don't think you're "meh." I for sure don't think that I'm "meh". 

I just want him to be the best him he can be, and expect the best for himself in return.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> And I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression.
> 
> From where I sit, MEM has never indicated that M2 is "meh" in any way. And marduk has given the distinct impression that his M2 would equally fall into that "meh" category, but that he does not view her as "meh.".
> 
> My SO has told me explicitly that he desires others, and he has a whole raft of women friends, including exes. He has said explicitly this "if it weren't for you" line that many here see as completely unacceptable. Presumably, then, he is "meh" too.
> 
> But maybe all thar "meh" is just being human. My SO has also told me that he could probably forgive me for cheating. He wouldn't like it, but he understands that people aren't perfect, and don"t always act perfectly.
> 
> I dunno, I struggle with this. If I were that "meh", I would leave me in a heartbeat. But at the same time, I appreciate the forgiveness and understanding of my human failings.


Just so I am clear. 

I am not saying everyone needs to be a supermodel or not comfortable with who they are. 

What I am saying is that there is a spark of greatness in everyone. That can be easily smothered by contentment that looks awefully like he regression to the mean. 

I want to fan that spark into a flame. Not just in myself, but in others. Especially my wife. Not just because I get a better wife, but because I love her and believe in her. 

And she gets to define what greatness means to her - and it's my job to support and encourage her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

samyeagar said:


> My take on it though...if the thought or feeling is not going to have any impact in any way, that simply having it will not translate into anything else, then one must carefully weigh the effects of translating those thoughts and feelings into the action of verbalizing them.
> 
> In a broader sense, once a thought or feeling is translated into action, even by simply verbalizing it, it is no longer under the control of the one who had the feeling in the first place.


I hear ya. And trust me, personally I am not one to just say whatever stupid thought passes through my head, nor am I advocating this.

Once it has been said, it can't be unsaid. And we are supposed to be looking out for the feelings of the ones we love.

I just see so much omission, and so much justification of omission. And it is so often in the name of "sparing feelings". But --and my SO and I both do this--a lot of that "sparing of the other's feelings" is just an excuse. An excuse to maintain control, to stay safe, to protect oneself.

I dunno, probably most people don't agree with me on this one. But I really can't stand the idea of being someone's "tell her what she wants to hear to keep her in line" or "she'll do because I wasn't able to get better". KWIM?


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> I want to fan that spark into a flame. Not just in myself, but in others. Especially my wife. Not just because I get a better wife, but because I love her and believe in her.


All I'm saying is that you need to be a bit careful about the fires you set. Because you might get burned. Or you might take the whole town out with you.

By your own admission, your wife has acted "meh" in the same way as you are accusing MEM's M2 of being meh. 

But you love her, support her, encourage her, and are allowing *her* to define what greatness means to her.

Why wouldn't MEM be doing the same things?


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,

We agree on the not average thing. 

Over the weekend - we watched this movie. A young married couple trying without success to conceive a child. 

Thing is - like we find in many strained sexual situations - fear has led to deception. The H is infertile, but has concealed that for 2 years leading the wife to believe that she is the 'problem'. 

Anyway - the H finally tells her the truth - and - she gets pregnant from an affair with a mutual friend and .... 

So the husband - sort of shrugs and says: glad you're happy, you wanted a baby so much, and now you're pregnant. 

This infiriated M2 who believes that all cheaters are bad and should be punished harshly. 

I just said: You have totally lost the thread. Sometimes one person's love for another far exceeds their need to control that person.




marduk said:


> I think you're missing my point.
> 
> My point is not to say you should dump your wife if she disclosed a one night stand a decade ago.
> 
> My point is that you seem very willing to accept average.
> 
> When you're anything but average.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> We agree on the not average thing.
> 
> Over the weekend - we watched this movie. A young married couple trying without success to conceive a child.
> 
> Thing is - like we find in many strained sexual situations - fear has led to deception. The H is infertile, but has concealed that for 2 years leading the wife to believe that she is the 'problem'.
> 
> Anyway - the H finally tells her the truth - and - she gets pregnant from an affair with a mutual friend and ....
> 
> So the husband - sort of shrugs and says: glad you're happy, you wanted a baby so much, and now you're pregnant.
> 
> This infiriated M2 who believes that all cheaters are bad and should be punished harshly.
> 
> I just said: You have totally lost the thread. Sometimes one person's love for another far exceeds their need to control that person.


Ok. You're not going to answer the question. 

Which is of course your prerogative. 

I'm just curious why.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

always_alone said:


> I hear ya. And trust me, personally I am not one to just say whatever stupid thought passes through my head, nor am I advocating this.
> 
> Once it has been said, it can't be unsaid. And we are supposed to be looking out for the feelings of the ones we love.
> 
> I just see so much omission, and so much justification of omission. And it is so often in the name of "sparing feelings". But --and my SO and I both do this--a lot of that "sparing of the other's feelings" is just an excuse. An excuse to maintain control, to stay safe, to protect oneself.
> 
> I dunno, probably most people don't agree with me on this one. But I really can't stand the idea of being someone's "tell her what she wants to hear to keep her in line" or "she'll do because I wasn't able to get better". KWIM?


It's a very fine line for sure.


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,

Can we separate these two things please. 
- A less than strong sexual response to me
- This whole notion of a one night stand

Which of these is it that you think is 'worse', and makes M2 average. 

You see this is where I am not following. Because these things - make her imperfect - but not average. 






marduk said:


> I think you're missing my point.
> 
> My point is not to say you should dump your wife if she disclosed a one night stand a decade ago.
> 
> My point is that you seem very willing to accept average.
> 
> When you're anything but average.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> Can we separate these two things please.
> - A less than strong sexual response to me
> - This whole notion of a one night stand
> 
> Which of these is it that you think is 'worse', and makes M2 average.
> 
> You see this is where I am not following. Because these things - make her imperfect - but not average.


You seem to be expecting - and ok with - poor behaviour from your wife. 

And I think that may have nothing at all to do with her and maybe to do with your impression of yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel so much comes down to the assurance a couple feels (or struggles to feel) in what they share.. their history can build confidence or cause some insecurities ...What is a couple's foundation ?? If there has been indiscretions, feeling 2nd best, it plays a part in this... leaving us questioning.. and that can be very hurtful.. we all want to feel #1 ...
> 
> My husband dang well knows my
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> & what we share.. *no one* could penetrate that.. some eye candy would leave me cold in comparison to him.. and the same goes for any beautiful woman he sees out & about...he's not one to "tap that" anyway, he's not flirtatious...and that means a lot to me.. I've never felt a little "eye candy" a threat .. (that's what he calls it, why I am using that term)...



I find both the certainty you have for each other and the honesty that you share truly amazing. It is lovely to see.


----------



## MEM2020

M2,
Is so not meh.

I am totally in love with her. 

And it's likely why I don't spend time 'sizing other women up'. 

A couple months back M2 decides we are gong to rate each other. Scale of 100. Both writing the number down to avoid biasing each other.

She writes down: 94
I write down: 

100 - 10 = 90

The 10 is based on two factors: controlling and competitive behavior.

------------
What followed was a bone jarringly funny dialogue that persisted for a good week or so. The best part was her Tourette style initial reaction. 

Kind of went like this. 
M2:'Outraged: I'm a B, as a wife. 
Me: A 90 is an A

M2: No no no - an A is 93-100' B is 85-92. I'm a B. If I'd known I was a B, I'd have given you an 89. 
Me: Gosh babe, I wonder why I said you were competitive. 
M2: Great, I'm a B. Good to know. 
Me: laughing - what's worse being a B or coming in second place?
M2: so you admit it, that I'm a B. 
Me: Nope. I admit nothing. Only recognize that you now seem to FEEL like a B.












always_alone said:


> And I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression.
> 
> From where I sit, MEM has never indicated that M2 is "meh" in any way. And marduk has given the distinct impression that his M2 would equally fall into that "meh" category, but that he does not view her as "meh.".
> 
> My SO has told me explicitly that he desires others, and he has a whole raft of women friends, including exes. He has said explicitly this "if it weren't for you" line that many here see as completely unacceptable. Presumably, then, he is "meh" too.
> 
> But maybe all thar "meh" is just being human. My SO has also told me that he could probably forgive me for cheating. He wouldn't like it, but he understands that people aren't perfect, and don"t always act perfectly.
> 
> I dunno, I struggle with this. If I were that "meh", I would leave me in a heartbeat. But at the same time, I appreciate the forgiveness and understanding of my human failings.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MEM11363 said:


> What followed was a bone jarringly funny dialogue that persisted for a good week or so. The best part was her Tourette style initial reaction.
> 
> Kind of went like this.
> M2:'Outraged: I'm a B, as a wife.
> Me: A 90 is an A
> 
> M2: No no no - an A is 93-100' B is 85-92. I'm a B. If I'd known I was a B, I'd have given you an 89.
> Me: Gosh babe, I wonder why I said you were competitive.
> M2: Great, I'm a B. Good to know.
> Me: laughing - what's worse being a B or coming in second place?
> M2: so you admit it, that I'm a B.
> Me: Nope. I admit nothing. Only recognize that you now seem to FEEL like a B.


Now wasn't that a lot of FUN.. a passionate funny as hell exchange like this can bring on the passion too.. did you end up in the sack ?



always_alone said:


> I find both the certainty you have for each other and the honesty that you share truly amazing. It is lovely to see.


 I think some of the things I write may be a little much for some here... This is what happens when you get 2 "open book types" together ...then we get a little high on the intimacy, sharing.... if we hurt each other in any way.. we are sensitive to it and go out of our way to make up for that.. I've done it MORE than he has.. (me & my big mouth) but he'll say I'm really good at making it up.. he gives me some grace.. 

To care THIS much about this issue just shows that mankind puts WAY TOO MUCH EMPHASIS on physical beauty, doesn't it.. it's not the end all.. there is so much more [email protected]#


----------



## eric1

I do all the time. I tell her that I've found my 'Emergency Backup Wife'. 

I have a rather crude sense of humor which for some reason she appreciates. I told her, on her 40th, that I was trading her in for two 20 year olds. That she finds the humor in that I guess means that we have something that works.


----------



## MEM2020

yes - ended up in bed

Yes the whole was kind of hot. 

The thing is - both the control and competition reflexes - are perfectly fine when blended with compassion, kindness, emotional intelligence and judgement. Playing any type of game - cards - board - sport - M2 has a delightfully healthy type of competitiveness. In the day to day banter - she is pitch perfect. 

BUT - in the real world. Sometimes not. If she can't find a 'win', in a situation that matters to her - she will often find a way to make sure you lose. That is a pattern which can be very destructive. 

I have found that sometimes - humor - helps her when she is emotionally - dis regulated. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> Now wasn't that a lot of FUN.. a passionate funny as hell exchange like this can bring on the passion too.. did you end up in the sack ?
> 
> I think some of the things I write may be a little much for some here... This is what happens when you get 2 "open book types" together ...then we get a little high on the intimacy, sharing.... if we hurt each other in any way.. we are sensitive to it and go out of our way to make up for that.. I've done it MORE than he has.. (me & my big mouth) but he'll say I'm really good at making it up.. he gives me some grace..
> 
> To care THIS much about this issue just shows that mankind puts WAY TOO MUCH EMPHASIS on physical beauty, doesn't it.. it's not the end all.. there is so much more [email protected]#


----------



## Marduk

eric1 said:


> I do all the time. I tell her that I've found my 'Emergency Backup Wife'.
> 
> I have a rather crude sense of humor which for some reason she appreciates. I told her, on her 40th, that I was trading her in for two 20 year olds. That she finds the humor in that I guess means that we have something that works.


When I told my wife that, she turned to me and said "go ahead, if you think you could get and keep up with two 20 year olds and not just embarrass yourself."

God, I love that woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,

For a moment, I'd like you to humor me. Indulge a brief exercise. 

Let's break a ONS down. And then a full blown affair. And then a full blown affair where - when caught your spouse refuses to end it. 

Perhaps the decomposition looks something like this:
- Pregnancy 
- STD 
- Abandonment (they leave you for the other person) 
- Loss of trust in your partners self control/commitment level
- Feeling taken advantage of 
- Self image impact
- Public image (what if others find out)

What did I leave out? 

So let's say I found out (to my knowledge she hasn't) that M2 had a ONS long ago. When I look at that list - nothing really gets me too riled up....

Full fledged affair - different story. 





marduk said:


> You seem to be expecting - and ok with - poor behaviour from your wife.
> 
> And I think that may have nothing at all to do with her and maybe to do with your impression of yourself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Strength is a rope composed of many strands. Courage is a big one.... 

And strength is a universal aphrodisiac.....




marduk said:


> When I told my wife that, she turned to me and said "go ahead, if you think you could get and keep up with two 20 year olds and not just embarrass yourself."
> 
> God, I love that woman.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> For a moment, I'd like you to humor me. Indulge a brief exercise.
> 
> Let's break a ONS down. And then a full blown affair. And then a full blown affair where - when caught your spouse refuses to end it.
> 
> Perhaps the decomposition looks something like this:
> - Pregnancy
> - STD
> - Abandonment (they leave you for the other person)
> - Loss of trust in your partners self control/commitment level
> - Feeling taken advantage of
> - Self image impact
> - Public image (what if others find out)
> 
> What did I leave out?
> 
> So let's say I found out (to my knowledge she hasn't) that M2 had a ONS long ago. When I look at that list - nothing really gets me too riled up....
> 
> Full fledged affair - different story.


Dude. Seriously. 

It's not about a ONS. Set that aside. Insert any ****ty behaviour you want in there instead. 

The point is that you're already bracing for ****ty behaviour. And already reasoning why you're OK with it.

And I wonder why.


----------



## EllisRedding

eric1 said:


> I do all the time. I tell her that I've found my 'Emergency Backup Wife'.
> 
> I have a rather crude sense of humor which for some reason she appreciates. I told her, on her 40th, that I was trading her in for two 20 year olds. That she finds the humor in that I guess means that we have something that works.


I tell my wife my 2nd wife isn't even born yet lol ...


----------



## always_alone

SimplyAmorous said:


> To care THIS much about this issue just shows that mankind puts WAY TOO MUCH EMPHASIS on physical beauty, doesn't it.. it's not the end all.. there is so much more [email protected]#


But this is exactly where I diverge with most of the conversation here. Most everyone just wants to shrug and call it "eye candy", just physical beauty, just humans being humans and appealing to each other. Totally separate from and inconsequential to the relationship.

IME, however, attraction is ever so much more complex than just some hot bod on a beach. It is multifaceted and there are all sorts of shades between really couldn't care less and falling head over heels with more than one person. Humans being humans can lead to all sorts of things that, quite frankly, I don't find inconsequential.

I don't have, and never will have, the certainty that you have. Or the openness, for that matter.


----------



## Divinely Favored

I Don't Know said:


> To me it doesn't matter if its a co-worker, casual acquaintance, or a celebrity. When you start using phrases like "If it weren't for you, I'd want to bang so and so." you are sending a message that your partner is as good as you think you can do... or... if only I was single (read you weren't in my way).
> 
> It doesn't matter if it's a famous person, the fact is that you'd rather be with them but your life just didn't work out to allow that to happen for one reason or another. That it's unrealistic or just a fantasy is irrelevant in my mind. You rather be with someone else AND think so little of me that you'd just say it like that? Here. Let me help you get started with that.


It was not said like that..,......it was said in the manner of " I WANT TO bang him, BUT since I settled for you I can't."


----------



## always_alone

Huh. I think when I get home, I'm going to tell my SO that I'm trading him in for two 23 yr olds. I wonder how he'll react.


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,

I don't make a habit of discussing this - but - you seem determined to understand my mindset vis a vis - marital balance. 

What you say is, or more accurately WAS true. Around three years ago - M2 had one of her melt downs. She sabotaged part of a vacation because she wasn't getting her way. When the dust settled - she thought she could apologize her way out of it. But she didn't really get it. So I told her I was going on strike. And she needed to get a job - and that after she got a job - eventually I'd consider going back to work. So yes I took about 3 years off from work. Just starting to think about going back to work now. 

From a practical standpoint - that likely means we won't ever get the beach front home she wanted. 






marduk said:


> Dude. Seriously.
> 
> It's not about a ONS. Set that aside. Insert any ****ty behaviour you want in there instead.
> 
> The point is that you're already bracing for ****ty behaviour. And already reasoning why you're OK with it.
> 
> And I wonder why.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

always_alone said:


> But this is exactly where I diverge with most of the conversation here. Most everyone just wants to shrug and call it "eye candy", just physical beauty, just humans being humans and appealing to each other.
> 
> IME, however, attraction is ever so much more complex than just some hot bod on a beach. It is multifaceted and there are all sorts of shades between really couldn't care less and falling head over heels with more than one person.


 Yes.. it can be multi-faceted.. from purely innocent to leading to an affair .....what I speak of is surely the more innocent ...see someone.. they are a .... have a 5 second fantasy -they pass.. we don't even remember their face.. it's purely a moment of visual "yum"... 

I guess this is where emotional & physical boundaries NEED to come into play.... if there is someone/ anyone who is hanging around & is a temptation to us..not to be ignorant, or lie to ourselves. 

I've never been in those shoes...but have read enough how the dopamine takes over, we're in a fog, we can't stop it...the craving for this new person, it consumes us, our dreams... it's times like that one has to put their values before their hormones.. and know the difference...that's the bottom line, isn't it.. 

Vowing to never betray someone who trusts us, to destroy their world like that...it should tear us up inside, make us sick if we cross over that fence...we need to deal with it, keeping our integrity intact. 

I feel being really open with our needs & desires... but of course making it FUN all the while... @MEM11363 mentioned "bantering" ...I love bantering .. it's not arguing.. more like teasing.... I couldn't live without it .. this can be very passionate & enjoyable...that sort of thing.. this all keeps the intimacy alive.. 

I guess I feel so much of this can prevent many of these things, these slippery slopes.... but I know, I know.. if one partner just doesn't seem to care, making us a priority, giving something back to work with & elevate the intimacy ... it's all shot to hell..


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> Huh. I think when I get home, I'm going to tell my SO that I'm trading him in for two 23 yr olds. I wonder how he'll react.


My wife said that to me when she turned 40 - it's my turn with 2 20 year olds.

My response was "Great! I'll pick the girls for you, and I get to watch."


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> I don't make a habit of discussing this - but - you seem determined to understand my mindset vis a vis - marital balance.
> 
> What you say is, or more accurately WAS true. Around three years ago - M2 had one of her melt downs. She sabotaged part of a vacation because she wasn't getting her way. When the dust settled - she thought she could apologize her way out of it. But she didn't really get it. So I told her I was going on strike. And she needed to get a job - and that after she got a job - eventually I'd consider going back to work. So yes I took about 3 years off from work. Just starting to think about going back to work now.
> 
> From a practical standpoint - that likely means we won't ever get the beach front home she wanted.


Not balance. You. 

But forget it. Too much resistance, and that's OK. None of my business.


----------



## *Deidre*

So many married people trying to hurt their spouses, one up them, degrade them, make them jealous, compete with them...really sad.  No wonder the divorce rate is high.


----------



## Blondilocks

What was the question?


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> Not balance. You.
> 
> But forget it. Too much resistance, and that's OK. None of my business.


Okay, I realize this all between you and MEM and none of *my* business, but I really don't get your angle here

MEM has answered your questions every which way since Tuesday, and still you accuse him of dodging and resistance.

But when I ask *you* very specifically about why you tolerate, even enjoy, the very same types of behaviours from your wife, you don't even answer at all.

Which is fine, really, as it is none of my business. But it sure makes it seem like you're projecting on to someone else what you oughtta be facing yourself.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> My wife said that to me when she turned 40 - it's my turn with 2 20 year olds.
> 
> My response was "Great! I'll pick the girls for you, and I get to watch."


Nuh uh! No one picks my partners but me. And trade ins don't get no viewing privileges neither. 

Tough luck.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes to this. 

I am not intentionally choosing not to answer. 

I got asked why I didn't think I deserve better. 

I DO think I deserve a LOT more than what I was getting 3 years ago. And M2 is a bit in denial. When folks ask her: what does a SAHD do, when the only child in the home is 20 years old and fully self sufficient. She says: MEM worked very hard for 20++ years and is taking a well earned break. 






always_alone said:


> Okay, I realize this all between you and MEM and none of *my* business, but I really don't get your angle here
> 
> MEM has answered your questions every which way since Tuesday, and still you accuse him of dodging and resistance.
> 
> But when I ask *you* very specifically about why you tolerate, even enjoy, the very same types of behaviours from your wife, you don't even answer at all.
> 
> Which is fine, really, as it is none of my business. But it sure makes it seem like you're projecting on to someone else what you oughtta be facing yourself.


----------



## AVR1962

Saying that you find someone else good looking is honest but to term them as "HOT" in my opinion, is lacking respect for you. How are you supposed to take this? I have married 31 years in two marriages and if my husband told me that ______ is "hot" it would be a clear message to me that they were not interested in me.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> When folks ask her: what does a SAHD do, when the only child in the home is 20 years old and fully self sufficient. She says: MEM worked very hard for 20++ years and is taking a well earned break.


Is this denial? It seems more like saving face. I mean, what is she going to say:

"I pushed MEM to his breaking point, and now it's payback time" ??

OR

"MEM doesn't want to buy me anything anymore, and says I have to do it myself" ??

At least her way of saying it shows that she realizes that you have worked hard, and deserved a break.


----------



## always_alone

eric1 said:


> I told her, on her 40th, that I was trading her in for two 20 year olds. That she finds the humor in that I guess means that we have something that works.


I've been thinking about this, and it's actually pretty good trade in value. 2 for 1. A high compliment to your wife.

If my SO ever says this to me, I'll have to let him know he'd be lucky to get a 72-year old with a broken hip and a parakeet named Tootsie.

In all seriousness, though, I fail to understand why it's considered completely acceptable for a guy to make these sorts of jokes about trading in his wife, but when a women expresses similar types of thoughts it's cruel and inappropriate. :scratchhead:


----------



## EllisRedding

always_alone said:


> In all seriousness, though, I fail to understand why it's considered completely acceptable for a guy to make these sorts of jokes about trading in his wife, but when a women expresses similar types of thoughts it's cruel and inappropriate. :scratchhead:


You are taking out of context. My wife and I have made these jokes, because, you know, we can actually have a sense of humor within our marriage.


----------



## always_alone

EllisRedding said:


> You are taking out of context. My wife and I have made these jokes, because, you know, we can actually have a sense of humor within our marriage.


So why aren't we telling OP that he just needs a better sense of humor? I mean, who says his wife is actually serious about wanting to marry that co-worker? Maybe he is just the Emergency Back-up Husband.


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> If my SO ever says this to me, I'll have to let him know he'd be lucky to get a 72-year old with a broken hip and a parakeet named Tootsie.


:lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> Is this denial? It seems more like saving face. I mean, what is she going to say:
> 
> "I pushed MEM to his breaking point, and now it's payback time" ??
> 
> OR
> 
> "MEM doesn't want to buy me anything anymore, and says I have to do it myself" ??
> 
> At least her way of saying it shows that she realizes that you have worked hard, and deserved a break.


_Exactly._

And that's not the part that I'm worried about.

The part that I'm worried about is that MEM seems settled about it. Almost... _resigned to his fate._

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just me being overly concerned. 

But I worry about you sometimes, man.


----------



## EllisRedding

always_alone said:


> So why aren't we telling OP that he just needs a better sense of humor? I mean, who says his wife is actually serious about wanting to marry that co-worker? Maybe he is just the Emergency Back-up Husband.


You need to take on a case by case basis. Just b/c my W and I have the type of relationship where we can joke about things like this doesn't mean that applies to the next person. If I knew she would not take kindly to such a joke I would never make. Based on what the OP is saying, he is not viewing as a joke.

Also, you have to look at the context where his W has clearly given this a lot of thought, makes frequent comments, etc... 

Once again, OP would not be here if this was all one big running joke b/w them.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> I've been thinking about this, and it's actually pretty good trade in value. 2 for 1. A high compliment to your wife.
> 
> If my SO ever says this to me, I'll have to let him know he'd be lucky to get a 72-year old with a broken hip and a parakeet named Tootsie.
> 
> In all seriousness, though, I fail to understand why it's considered completely acceptable for a guy to make these sorts of jokes about trading in his wife, but when a women expresses similar types of thoughts it's cruel and inappropriate. :scratchhead:


Oh, we laugh about that kind of stuff. Both ways.

When it bothers me is when she randomly gets into explicit detail about her ex's for no apparent reason. Frequently at house parties or on date nights.

I mean, she's stopped doing that now, but it bothered me when she did. No concerns talking about ex's if there's something we need to talk about... But why just start talking about what sex was like with your ex over dinner with friends? Or on our anniversary night?

That's the stuff I find cruel and inappropriate. Not "Channing Tatum" drool drool laughable stuff.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> _Exactly._
> 
> And that's not the part that I'm worried about.
> 
> The part that I'm worried about is that MEM seems settled about it. Almost... _resigned to his fate._
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just me being overly concerned.
> 
> But I worry about you sometimes, man.


Yes, but marduk, when you are not bragging about difficult and exciting your wife is, you are complaining about how you can never be yourself, and all the demands she places on you.

Why are you so resigned to this fate? I mean, just like MEM, you frequently avow great love for her. And then turn around and say you probably shouldn't be with her. What's with that?

My answer for me is that my SO most certainly falls short of perfection. But then, as it happens, so do I. And really, I have to say, the very best thing about him is that he never tries to "fix" me. He enjoys my caustic comments, never tells me how to dress or wear my hair, or how to act in bed, or who to socialize with or how, what I can or cannot do. He just accepts me warts and all, and I try to return the favour.


----------



## farsidejunky

One word answers the whole thing:

Acceptance 

For their good and bad, acceptance.

If you cannot accept them, do them a favor and set them free.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> Yes, but marduk, when you are not bragging about difficult and exciting your wife is, you are complaining about how you can never be yourself, and all the demands she places on you.
> 
> Why are you so resigned to this fate? I mean, just like MEM, you frequently avow great love for her. And then turn around and say you probably shouldn't be with her. What's with that?
> 
> My answer for me is that my SO most certainly falls short of perfection. But then, as it happens, so do I. And really, I have to say, the very best thing about him is that he never tries to "fix" me. He enjoys my caustic comments, never tells me how to dress or wear my hair, or how to act in bed, or who to socialize with or how, what I can or cannot do. He just accepts me warts and all, and I try to return the favour.


Maybe that's what I'm picking up on.


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,

I know exactly what you are talking about. 

This is rooted in some core stuff. Recently M2 asked me a question that, I've asked myself dozens of times over the years. 

When she's with me - there's this switch gets flipped. She's irresistibly charming. The edgy, effortless banter. The high quality of conversation. 

She's not at ease around other folks. Except at work - where she is formally 'in charge' of her patients. When she's 'in control' she's more in the zone with regard to interpersonal skills. 

But in vanilla social situations - she's more quiet and I'm more likely the center of attention. And sometimes she gets jealous and destructive when that happens. Like she intentionally says stuff to try and embarrass me. 

I make more of an effort to fuse her into the interaction now. 





marduk said:


> Oh, we laugh about that kind of stuff. Both ways.
> 
> When it bothers me is when she randomly gets into explicit detail about her ex's for no apparent reason. Frequently at house parties or on date nights.
> 
> I mean, she's stopped doing that now, but it bothered me when she did. No concerns talking about ex's if there's something we need to talk about... But why just start talking about what sex was like with your ex over dinner with friends? Or on our anniversary night?
> 
> That's the stuff I find cruel and inappropriate. Not "Channing Tatum" drool drool laughable stuff.


----------



## always_alone

farsidejunky said:


> One word answers the whole thing:
> 
> Acceptance
> 
> For their good and bad, acceptance.


It's a gift. A precious, priceless, irreplaceable, awesome gift. 

Note to self: do NOT take it for granted.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> Maybe that's what I'm picking up on.


?? What do you mean?


----------



## MEM2020

Sorry I had a senior moment. 

M2 asked me: Why can't I be the way I am with you, when I'm around other people?

I said: I think you are closest to that mode, at work. 

She agreed. And then said - but not at work.....
Me: yes, when you're not at work, the charisma switch - the one that is perpetually ON in my company, doesn't seem to work so well. 

M2: I wish I could be the way I am with you, with everyone else. 
Me: I know, me too. 








MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> I know exactly what you are talking about.
> 
> This is rooted in some core stuff. Recently M2 asked me a question that, I've asked myself dozens of times over the years.
> 
> When she's with me - there's this switch gets flipped. She's irresistibly charming. The edgy, effortless banter. The high quality of conversation.
> 
> She's not at ease around other folks. Except at work - where she is formally 'in charge' of HR patients. When she's 'in control' she's more in the zone with regard to interpersonal skills.
> 
> But in vanilla social situations - she's more quiet and I'm more likely the center of attention. And sometimes she gets jealous and destructive when that happens. Like she intentionally says stuff to try and embarrass me.
> 
> I make more of an effort to fuse her into the interaction now.


----------



## Blondilocks

I would suggest that M2's charisma is not natural to her. When she isn't at work she is recuperating until the next time she needs to perform. The fact that her charisma is totally natural when with you is quite a compliment. This is something that she and you do not need to worry about. Her body and mind need a rest every once in a while. Just consider that you bring out the best in M2.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> I make more of an effort to fuse her into the interaction now.


This is good to hear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Blond,
I do. And I know that, and she knows that. Thing is, her best is spectacular. 

I have had to learn to effectively deal with her 'worst'. 

I often address the difference between reflexive response, and thoughtful response. 

M2's reflexive responses are sometimes - wildly at odds with her thoughtful response. 

This weekend, we are going to NYC to see the play: Hamilton

I suggested seeing a family member during the trip. M2's reflexive response was: let's not

Her delayed response was: We should see this family member.

Her extended delayed response was: I'm sorry for being such a bltch and discouraging this visit. 

Anyway - the main thing is we are going to see my Aunt. 

I don't hold M2's reflexive response against her. I am instead grateful for her 'delayed response'.....




Blondilocks said:


> I would suggest that M2's charisma is not natural to her. When she isn't at work she is recuperating until the next time she needs to perform. The fact that her charisma is totally natural when with you is quite a compliment. This is something that she and you do not need to worry about. Her body and mind need a rest every once in a while. Just consider that you bring out the best in M2.


----------



## Holland

MEM11363 said:


> Blond,
> I do. And I know that, and she knows that. Thing is, her best is spectacular.
> 
> I have had to learn to effectively deal with her 'worst'.
> 
> *I often address the difference between reflexive response, and thoughtful response.
> 
> M2's reflexive responses are sometimes - wildly at odds with her thoughtful response. *
> 
> This weekend, we are going to NYC to see the play: Hamilton
> 
> I suggested seeing a family member during the trip. M2's reflexive response was: let's not
> 
> Her delayed response was: We should see this family member.
> 
> Her extended delayed response was: I'm sorry for being such a bltch and discouraging this visit.
> 
> Anyway - the main thing is we are going to see my Aunt.
> 
> *I don't hold M2's reflexive response against her. I am instead grateful for her 'delayed response'.....*


Man oh man I know that nightmare and am sure Mr H would say the same. that is is greatful for my delayed response.

Any ideas how to stop/control the reflexive response?


----------



## jld

Holland said:


> Man oh man I know that nightmare and am sure Mr H would say the same. that is is greatful for my delayed response.
> 
> Any ideas how to stop/control the reflexive response?


Just my personal opinion, but I would not recommend trying to stop or control it. I think the reflexive response is actually a gift.

Transparency keeps things from getting bottled up inside. And what we do not talk out, we act out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Holland,

After giving this topic a lot of consideration - the answer is this: 

You absolutely can fix this issue, BUT, and it is a huge MASSIVE sized but, the cure is far worse than the symptom. Because the cure, in a nutshell, is to force the person who is responding reflexively, in an unfortunate manner, to walk on egg shells. 

My treatment is entirely different. It's to say: Situation reversed, I 
think, or hope that I'd be more accommodating....

And then I shut up and let all that goodwill I've created, work its magic. 





Holland said:


> Man oh man I know that nightmare and am sure Mr H would say the same. that is is greatful for my delayed response.
> 
> Any ideas how to stop/control the reflexive response?


----------



## heartsbeating

always_alone said:


> He has said explicitly this "if it weren't for you" line that many here see as completely unacceptable. Presumably, then, he is "meh" too.


I'm curious if you ever hear comments such as 'BECAUSE of you..' 

Transparency (which I don't think means being unfiltered) can also be loving and validating. That is also real.


----------



## heartsbeating

marduk said:


> _Exactly._
> 
> And that's not the part that I'm worried about.
> 
> The part that I'm worried about is that MEM seems settled about it. Almost... _resigned to his fate._
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just me being overly concerned.
> 
> But I worry about you sometimes, man.


I'm jumping in for the hell of it.

Aren't most relationship dynamics too complex to summarize in this format? Although I dig your concern for MEM, if he is good with his situation why not trust that? I'd hazard a guess that MEM is big enough and ugly enough (not literally) to know what time it is.


----------



## Blondilocks

To me, the reflexive response is the true response. The thought out response is the 'ought to' response. People should be indulged their reflexive responses as often as feasible. Otherwise, they are living their lives based on what they think other people want them to do or what society dictates. Is that a genuine life or a fun life?


----------



## heartsbeating

Blondilocks said:


> To me, the reflexive response is the true response. The thought out response is the 'ought to' response. People should be indulged their reflexive responses as often as feasible. Otherwise, they are living their lives based on what they think other people want them to do or what society dictates. Is that a genuine life or a fun life?


I think there are times when absolutely the reflexive response ought to just occur... however there are times when not succumbing to our emotions, to the knee-jerk reaction, is more beneficial. I think that develops as part of having _wisdom_. I'd imagine it's common for many of us to slide between the two.

I don't see the cool-headed response as the 'ought to' response or that it's based on others. Perhaps even the opposite; the ego is less involved and allows for behavior that is aligned with who we are beyond the noise. From that place, maybe we can express more transparently?


----------



## heartsbeating

...not that I'm proclaiming it's the way I am, just life observations


----------



## imtamnew

If you lie, you will burn in help. Except when the wife is asking if her ass is too big or a passing girls body is too nice.
No is the only acceptable answer and when you reach the heavenly gates, St Peter will let you thru without bringing this up.


----------



## farsidejunky

Blondilocks said:


> To me, the reflexive response is the true response. The thought out response is the 'ought to' response. People should be indulged their reflexive responses as often as feasible. Otherwise, they are living their lives based on what they think other people want them to do or what society dictates. Is that a genuine life or a fun life?


Is that the same reflexive response that would have us physically lash out at our spouse in anger?  

I have been mad enough for that several times in our relationship. I am glad I did not follow these impulses.

So while I understand what you are saying _fundamentally_, practically is a different matter entirely.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blondilocks

No. What you are suggesting sounds more like the fight or flight response.


----------



## Marduk

heartsbeating said:


> I'm jumping in for the hell of it.
> 
> Aren't most relationship dynamics too complex to summarize in this format? Although I dig your concern for MEM, if he is good with his situation why not trust that? I'd hazard a guess that MEM is big enough and ugly enough (not literally) to know what time it is.


MEM is exceptionally intelligent, compassionate, and emotionally aware.

He is also exceptionally humble.

Sometimes I worry that he's _too_ humble.

But I'll get off his case now.


----------



## Marduk

Blondilocks said:


> To me, the reflexive response is the true response. The thought out response is the 'ought to' response. People should be indulged their reflexive responses as often as feasible. Otherwise, they are living their lives based on what they think other people want them to do or what society dictates. Is that a genuine life or a fun life?


I disagree.

Often the reflexive response is the fear response. It's basically been hard wired in as a survival mechanism.

It's also directly the response that you seek to retain with things like martial arts, sports, meditation, yoga, etc.

It's also been the downfall in my marriage many times. For example, I blew my wife's burgeoning EA initially out of fear. And that made everything worse.

Often, the best response is not the reflexive response. You can either retrain it, take a pause to think about it, or just throw caution to the winds and deal with it.

For example, if Adriana Lima were to walk by, and my wife asked if I wanted to have sex with her, I could say:

a. nothing
B. "Of course not." (Insert random made up imperfection to focus on)
C. "Hell ya! Did you see her? I'd like to X her Y so hard!"
D. "She's extremely beautiful. But while I'm married to you, I'm happy to only have sex with you and only you even if she offered it."
E. "How about you have sex with her and I watch you two?"

A or B is going to breed mistrust because she knows the supermodel is hot and knows that I'm attracted to her, but I won't admit it. Therefore I'm not being honest with her, plus I must be super duper attracted to her and would dump my wife in a heartbeat.

C is just insensitive even if it's true. And purposeless. Why make my wife insecure on purpose?

D is the truth, but it is also sensitive and honest. I would not have sex with Adriana Lima even if she wanted me to as long as I'm married to someone else. But she _is_ extremely beautiful, and we both can see that for ourselves. So I'm not going to lie about that.

E is just funny and might break the tension, while also acknowledging that I find both Adriana Lima and my wife hot.

I'd go for D or E, although my shocked initial reaction might be C.


----------



## Blondilocks

It seems people are applying the reflexive response to dire situations. Asking M2 if she would visit his aunt on the trip is the typical type of communication between spouses. If you're using the reflexive response to cover anger issues or out your spouse, there are therapists who can help.


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,
I've now been debating you for several pages. And the thing is - you are right. 

The Hamilton trip made me realize how right you are. 

Because the one thing I suggested - when M2 reflexively discouraged it - I dropped it. Not only dropped it, but had zero intention of raising it again. 

That's - kind of - sad. 

You are a true friend. 





marduk said:


> MEM is exceptionally intelligent, compassionate, and emotionally aware.
> 
> He is also exceptionally humble.
> 
> Sometimes I worry that he's _too_ humble.
> 
> But I'll get off his case now.


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> I've now been debating you for several pages. And the thing is - you are right.
> 
> The Hamilton trip made me realize how right you are.
> 
> Because the one thing I suggested - when M2 reflexively discouraged it - I dropped it. Not only dropped it, but had zero intention of raising it again.
> 
> That's - kind of - sad.
> 
> You are a true friend.


It is kind of sad, brother.

What happens now?


----------



## MEM2020

Absolutely no idea. 

Not being flip. 






marduk said:


> It is kind of sad, brother.
> 
> What happens now?


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Blond,
> I suggested seeing a family member during the trip. M2's reflexive response was: let's not


This is often my response to familial obligations too, even if my own family.

And what my SO says to me is: you really should make the effort. This is your family you are talking about.

Or something similar.

And even though I never really want to, reflexively or after thought, I agree and we make the effort to keep good relations with relations.

He is a much better son/brother/nephew/grandson/friend than I will ever be ....


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Absolutely no idea.
> 
> Not being flip.


Try not dropping it. Try expecting just a little bit more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

heartsbeating said:


> I'm curious if you ever hear comments such as 'BECAUSE of you..'
> 
> Transparency (which I don't think means being unfiltered) can also be loving and validating. That is also real.


So I am learning. But my instinct is to not trust it.

But the short answer is yes. Not in those words exactly, but certainly some of the messaging is positive.


----------



## always_alone

heartsbeating said:


> I think there are times when absolutely the reflexive response ought to just occur... however there are times when not succumbing to our emotions, to the knee-jerk reaction, is more beneficial. I think that develops as part of having _wisdom_. I'd imagine it's common for many of us to slide between the two.
> 
> I don't see the cool-headed response as the 'ought to' response or that it's based on others. Perhaps even the opposite; the ego is less involved and allows for behavior that is aligned with who we are beyond the noise. From that place, maybe we can express more transparently?


I agree! I don't think it is the timing of the response that makes the difference, or the degree of thought necessarily. It is the amount of ego investment.

Sometimes the reflexive response is the best possible response there can be. Attuned to the context, the situation, the immediate needs, it can be immensely powerful and lead to all sorts of serendipity that capitalize on all sorts of intangibles that we aren't always even fully aware of. The hairs that stand up on the back of your neck in a dodgy situation, for example. Or the ability to catch someone as they fall, or to soothe their wounds.

Once the ego gets involved, however, these reflexive responses can be based entirely in our own narcissism. They become about payback, or revenge, or manipulating others to extract what we feel we are "owed" or the accolades we "deserve". And while time and thought can be used effectively to gain more perspective, to see the ego in the context of the whole, they can also be used to rationalize and justify our continued selfish entitlements. 

The challenge, of course, is to be able to tell the difference.


----------



## heartsbeating

always_alone said:


> This is often my response to familial obligations too, even if my own family.
> 
> And what my SO says to me is: you really should make the effort. This is your family you are talking about.
> 
> Or something similar.
> 
> And even though I never really want to, reflexively or after thought, I agree and we make the effort to keep good relations with relations.
> 
> He is a much better son/brother/nephew/grandson/friend than I will ever be ....


I've been here too. Sometimes with friends, family, talking on the phone haha... thing is, I do enjoy socializing and having these relationships. Sometimes my husband reminds me of that. Or suggests to make the effort of a phone call rather than a text. gasp! Granted with family, he also acknowledges the dysfunction. And encourages a shrug of the shoulders at times too.


----------



## heartsbeating

On a silly note.....

I commented, 'Guy Pearce is one handsome man' and he commented 'I'm only watching this because she's in it..' and I responded 'oh, she is gorgeous looking... I wonder what it's like to be _that_ good looking?' He replied, 'It can be hard at first but I've learned to manage over the years' I said, 'Mr Pearce has nothing on you' He gave me that cheeky grin.


----------



## MEM2020

Thing is - there is zero chance of us visiting a metro area where M2 has family - without including a visit to them in the process. 

But Marduk's point - is correct. I would not have pushed it, despite the fact that situation reversed, I'm actively supportive of us spending as much time with M2's family as she is. 

But really this is on me. 




always_alone said:


> This is often my response to familial obligations too, even if my own family.
> 
> And what my SO says to me is: you really should make the effort. This is your family you are talking about.
> 
> Or something similar.
> 
> And even though I never really want to, reflexively or after thought, I agree and we make the effort to keep good relations with relations.
> 
> He is a much better son/brother/nephew/grandson/friend than I will ever be ....


----------



## Blondilocks

I gather you didn't visit your aunt? I thought she did a 180 on her reflexive response. What were her excuses?


----------



## MEM2020

We will see her Saturday 



Blondilocks said:


> I gather you didn't visit your aunt? I thought she did a 180 on her reflexive response. What were her excuses?


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Thing is - there is zero chance of us visiting a metro area where M2 has family - without including a visit to them in the process.
> 
> But Marduk's point - is correct. I would not have pushed it, despite the fact that situation reversed, I'm actively supportive of us spending as much time with M2's family as she is.
> 
> But really this is on me.


Yes. Because really, really big difference here is that I am an equal opportunity b1tch while she is more selective. 

Point being that my SO and I see such things very differently, although I can see he sense in his sensibilities, and he understands the reticence in mine.

Isn't waiting around for someone else to eventually come to the "right" conclusion what is lovingly known on TAM as the sh1t test?

I agree with marduk that you need to stand up for what you believe in, for what is important. I would only caution that the moral high ground can get awful slippery if you are playing the same sort of games .


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> Yes. Because really, really big difference here is that I am an equal opportunity b1tch while she is more selective.
> 
> Point being that my SO and I see such things very differently, although I can see he sense in his sensibilities, and he understands the reticence in mine.
> 
> Isn't waiting around for someone else to eventually come to the "right" conclusion what is lovingly known on TAM as the sh1t test?
> 
> I agree with marduk that you need to stand up for what you believe in, for what is important. I would only caution that the moral high ground can get awful slippery if you are playing the same sort of games .


I do not think there is a right or wrong answer to seeing relatives. There are lessons to be learned for all either way.

I don't think forcing oneself is necessarily a good idea. But talking transparently with your partner can bring about reflection in both people. 

Acting solely from obligation does not seem very healthy. Not when it comes to personal relationships. Unless you do not feel personally invested in them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

im_tam said:


> If you lie, you will burn in help. Except when the wife is asking if her ass is too big or a passing girls body is too nice.
> No is the only acceptable answer and when you reach the heavenly gates, St Peter will let you thru without bringing this up.


The answer is only unacceptable if we have made it so. There is nothing inherently wrong with having a "fat ass" or admitting a "passing girl's body is too nice." Some people find fat asses beautiful and no one person in the world holds the corner on a nice body. 

I think transparency in marriage could prevent and heal so many problems. But how to get past the fear of embracing it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieceOfSky

It's a destructive thing to think we know with any certainty what is behind another's words, and then try to move forward without having the difficult conversations and introspections that would get us closer to the truth.

It's hard to recognize the agendas and distortions we potentially mix in as we attempt to understand the wrong that has been done to us. When we're hurting our defenses kick in; objectivity suffers.

When something a SO says leaves us feeling inferior or undesirable or second-best, I'd guess most of us try to translate that into some insight on where we stand in our partner's eyes. That insight, if accurate, is valuable to be sure; very destructive if inaccurate. Accurate insight is unlikely if we fail to take into account what incentives and (naturally human) propensities we have to distort.

I've been listening to Brene' Brown's book titled Rising Strong. She talks quite a bit about this sort of thing therein. She recommends having the conversation that seeks those insights by starting with "The story I'm making up in my head is.....", which is followed by what one (merely) suspects is the explanation of what has been going on or has been said....

She also talks about the disaster that is hiding what you really feel in order to "get along", which seems relevant to the discussion here of "reflexive response". I'm just getting into that part of the book, not sure how it is going to turn out. But, I think she planted the seed earlier that the challenge is to own and then integrate those parts of ourselves that we are sometimes tempted to silence or suppress.

Btw, I recently listed to some of Ester Perel's book on Mating in Captivity. She talks a bit about "oversharing", as well as having the notion of "the third" (person -- a potential competitor for our partner's interests). The former impedes attraction, and the latter has potential to increase it (or destroy it!) I'm sure I can't do that book justice here, but my take away from it is relationships are hard -- there are complex dynamics to balance, more than I had imagined.



always_alone said:


> I just see so much omission, and so much justification of omission. And it is so often in the name of "sparing feelings". But --and my SO and I both do this--a lot of that "sparing of the other's feelings" is just an excuse. An excuse to maintain control, to stay safe, to protect oneself.


That is insightful. The road to my marriage hell was paved with bricks made by me "sparing feelings", or if not that, then me trying to "be strong enough, heroic enough, stoic enough" to endure the challenges her struggles brought to the table. Fact is, maybe that provided short term gains but long term it is disaster, and maybe I stuck with it for a very long time because I feared what the truth really demanded from me (to grow, to face fears about myself, my self-worth).



always_alone said:


> I dunno, probably most people don't agree with me on this one. But I really can't stand the idea of being someone's "tell her what she wants to hear to keep her in line" or "she'll do because I wasn't able to get better". KWIM?


You can't stand the idea. I don't like it either. Saddest song I've heard is "Jerry" by Sonya Kitchell.

The only antidote is one being comfortable and accepting of oneself.



always_alone said:


> I find both the certainty you have for each other and the honesty that you share truly amazing. It is lovely to see.


It is lovely. I would add, though, it seems to me the foundation that makes it all smoothly possible is the certainty each partner has for herself/himself.



AVR1962 said:


> Saying that you find someone else good looking is honest but to term them as "HOT" in my opinion, is lacking respect for you. How are you supposed to take this? I have married 31 years in two marriages and if my husband told me that ______ is "hot" it would be a clear message to me that they were not interested in me.


AVR, I think it is definitely a message and not a pleasant one, but I think it could be other things than what you suggest. As some examples, perhaps it's driven by insecurity about (the hypothetical) himself (e.g., fishing for signs you could still feel jealousy over him); could be a passive-aggressive punishment because he feels you are losing interest in him and/or something you you did bruised his ego (perhaps he wishes you desired him more, and amazingly he fools himself momentarily into thinking he's "still got it" and that the "HOT" one would find him desirable, and in his confusion lashes out at you by mention her "HOTNESS"). I suppose there are a lot of possibilities. I don't want to sound like I'm defending someone who would (hypothetically) treat you like that, but I'm hoping you might see how it is possible the motive force behind it **could** be something quite unexpected, and in some cases, only gets its charge because underneath there is interest in you or fear of losing you. 

Brene' Brown talks a bit about that sort of thing in her book too.



always_alone said:


> In all seriousness, though, I fail to understand why it's considered completely acceptable for a guy to make these sorts of jokes about trading in his wife, but when a women expresses similar types of thoughts it's cruel and inappropriate. :scratchhead:


Considered by whom? The story I'm telling myself is it is a rare occurrence that those "sorts of jokes" are acceptable. I can imagine such being funny only if the implicit butt of the joke is the one telling the joke (uhh, there's no way two 25 year olds would be interested in spending any time with me), or where there is shared understanding that both partners are getting older and by laughing at such "unlikely" math they are accepting some truths about each other and are happy to be together.



always_alone said:


> I agree! I don't think it is the timing of the response that makes the difference, or the degree of thought necessarily. It is the amount of ego investment.
> 
> Sometimes the reflexive response is the best possible response there can be. Attuned to the context, the situation, the immediate needs, it can be immensely powerful and lead to all sorts of serendipity that capitalize on all sorts of intangibles that we aren't always even fully aware of. The hairs that stand up on the back of your neck in a dodgy situation, for example. Or the ability to catch someone as they fall, or to soothe their wounds.
> 
> Once the ego gets involved, however, these reflexive responses can be based entirely in our own narcissism. They become about payback, or revenge, or manipulating others to extract what we feel we are "owed" or the accolades we "deserve". And while time and thought can be used effectively to gain more perspective, to see the ego in the context of the whole, they can also be used to rationalize and justify our continued selfish entitlements.
> 
> The challenge, of course, is to be able to tell the difference.


Well said. But, it applies not only to that "reflexive" response, but even to the well-thought out response to, and even to things we think a lot about but don't ever happen to share. What I'm thinking of here is where someone believes their partner sees one a certain way or has particular motivations or has taken certain actions, and those unjustified and inaccurate or at least unverified beliefs fit the narrative of their life -- its a comfortable fit though not such a happy story. The rationalizations might be used to justify selfish entitlements as you say, but they might also justify never facing what one is truly afraid of facing on the inside. It becomes part of a grand bargain where neither partner has to be seen or be vulnerable, and neither partner has to grow.

Humans are sometimes complex. Can't live with them, can't live without them.


----------



## always_alone

jld said:


> I do not think there is a right or wrong answer to seeing relatives. There are lessons to be learned for all either way.
> 
> I don't think forcing oneself is necessarily a good idea. But talking transparently with your partner can bring about reflection in both people.
> 
> Acting solely from obligation does not seem very healthy. Not when it comes to personal relationships. Unless you do not feel personally invested in them.


Yes, agreed. It depends on the person --- and on the family. 

And living a life of "shoulds" isn't a great way to be true to oneself or to find happiness. In any sphere.

But when my SO tells me I should make more of an effort, he is right, I think. Sometimes "shoulds" can help you be a better person.


----------



## always_alone

PieceOfSky said:


> Well said. But, it applies not only to that "reflexive" response, but even to the well-thought out response to, and even to things we think a lot about but don't ever happen to share. What I'm thinking of here is where someone believes their partner sees one a certain way or has particular motivations or has taken certain actions, and those unjustified and inaccurate or at least unverified beliefs fit the narrative of their life -- its a comfortable fit though not such a happy story. The rationalizations might be used to justify selfish entitlements as you say, but they might also justify never facing what one is truly afraid of facing on the inside. It becomes part of a grand bargain where neither partner has to be seen or be vulnerable, and neither partner has to grow.
> 
> Humans are sometimes complex. Can't live with them, can't live without them.


Agreed. A lot of the time "thinking" is more about rationalization than it is about truth. And so it can be used to hang on to prejudices, to avoid hard truths, to justify inaction or wrong action, and all sorts of other unproductive purposes. Or rather, as you say, seemingly useful in the short term, but ultimately leading to much worse situation.

Also agreed that "getting along" can be overrated. I mean, in general, it is a good thing to strive for. But if it is at the cost of your authentic self and feelings, I think you can do a lot of damage. To yourself, and to others.

It's easy, for example, to assume that one should act in certain ways (supportive, encouraging, never a negative word) in order to "get along". But sometimes, the cost of doing that is to support something that is completely stupid and needs to be called out. Or sometimes, that negative approach is exactly the challenge that leads to a better solution. 

I'm not expressing it well, but the point being is that there isn't just one way to be, or a "right" way that will make it all (whatever it may be) better. And as both you and jld have said: it is really only through that authenticity that we can truly grow.

As long as we don't kill each other in the process.


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> Yes, agreed. It depends on the person --- and on the family.
> 
> And living a life of "shoulds" isn't a great way to be true to oneself or to find happiness. In any sphere.
> 
> But when my SO tells me I should make more of an effort, he is right, I think. Sometimes "shoulds" can help you be a better person.


It's tricky, isn't it? Sometimes we force ourselves to do something and later we are grateful we did. Other times we force ourselves and we regret it. 

Life. Not always clear cut answers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> I'm not expressing it well, but the point being is that there isn't just one way to be, or a "right" way that will make it all (whatever it may be) better. And as both you and jld have said: it is really only through that authenticity that we can truly grow.
> 
> *As long as we don't kill each other in the process*.



_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Always,

Lately I've been seeing M2 employ - a set of impulse overrides that are very welcome. 

Consider a scenario. M2 asks me to do something. We both have a similar expectation as to how long it will take. Once that duration passes her impulse is to begin asking 'if I'm done yet'.

It's an odd question considering that - a normal person who is doing something for you - tells you when they are done. And of course there are variations on this theme. 'how's it coming', actually means: why is it taking so long? 

She has largely stopped doing that. In fact the other night, she did quote the opposite and asked: anything I can do to help? 

There was, she did it when asked and like magic I got her what she had initially asked for. 

Not all impulses are constructive. 





always_alone said:


> Yes, agreed. It depends on the person --- and on the family.
> 
> And living a life of "shoulds" isn't a great way to be true to oneself or to find happiness. In any sphere.
> 
> But when my SO tells me I should make more of an effort, he is right, I think. Sometimes "shoulds" can help you be a better person.


----------



## PieceOfSky

always_alone said:


> Agreed. A lot of the time "thinking" is more about rationalization than it is about truth. And so it can be used to hang on to prejudices, to avoid hard truths, to justify inaction or wrong action, and all sorts of other unproductive purposes.
> )




I suspect often the hidden purpose of all that is to avoid actually feeling. Literally, feeling the emotion -- the uncomfortable, hurting, painful feeling.



I'm quite good at not letting myself feel it.



But, as they say, one can't turn off just the bad feelings. Trying to do so results in being numb to joy as well.



It becomes a vicious cycle. Requires awareness and conscious intent to change.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Always,
> 
> Lately I've been seeing M2 employ - a set of impulse overrides that are very welcome.
> 
> Consider a scenario. M2 asks me to do something. We both have a similar expectation as to how long it will take. Once that duration passes her impulse is to begin asking 'if I'm done yet'.
> 
> It's an odd question considering that - a normal person who is doing something for you - tells you when they are done. And of course there are variations on this theme. 'how's it coming', actually means: why is it taking so long?
> 
> She has largely stopped doing that. In fact the other night, she did quote the opposite and asked: anything I can do to help?
> 
> There was, she did it when asked and like magic I got her what she had initially asked for.
> 
> Not all impulses are constructive.


Agreed. Indeed, what you describe would drive me crazy. I hate being micromanaged.

Your story reminds me of a friend of mine who once stayed with me while she was going through a nasty breakup. Everything that I did, she hovered over me "how long is *that* going to take you", "what are you doing *that* for?", "don't you want to do something else (aka pay attention to me)".

It was so controlling and so very difficult to live with. 

I think it had a lot to do with what Piece of Sky described: she didn't want to be alone with herself, she didn't want to feel what she was feeling, and so I became her distraction. 

It was tough. 

These sorts of impulses might feel good in the right now, but they really aren't helpful for the long haul.


----------



## MEM2020

The weekend has now come and gone. 

Hamilton - was terrific

Our visit with my 50 year plus friend of the family was excellent. All three of us had a great time. 

Even better - the day after M2 acknowledged that, while she loved the show, she was disappointed that Lin Manuel Miranda - (who plays Hamilton) and Chris Jackson (who plays George Washington) - were not working that night - and under studies played their parts. 

She was a bit hesitant to say this - because - this was a $2,500 weekend - and she did not want to seem ungrateful.....

The thing is - she was disappointed about that - so I told her I was glad she said so. 

I sort of saw it different - but there has to be room in a marriage for different viewpoints. 

The way I saw it was this. There was a security incident occurred just outside the theatre. Some guy, parked a pickup truck on Broadway and left it there - with suspicious contents in the back. 

The police shut the street down for almost an hour. Luckily we were already in the theatre. But the woman sitting next to us, who flew in from California just to see the show, arrived at 7:45 PM. Show starts at 8. The police had just shut the street down. Wouldn't let her through. She missed 1/3 of the show. 

So I was glad that we arrived early. And that the truck didn't contain a real bomb. 





always_alone said:


> Agreed. Indeed, what you describe would drive me crazy. I hate being micromanaged.
> 
> Your story reminds me of a friend of mine who once stayed with me while she was going through a nasty breakup. Everything that I did, she hovered over me "how long is *that* going to take you", "what are you doing *that* for?", "don't you want to do something else (aka pay attention to me)".
> 
> It was so controlling and so very difficult to live with.
> 
> I think it had a lot to do with what Piece of Sky described: she didn't want to be alone with herself, she didn't want to feel what she was feeling, and so I became her distraction.
> 
> It was tough.
> 
> These sorts of impulses might feel good in the right now, but they really aren't helpful for the long haul.


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> The weekend has now come and gone.
> 
> Hamilton - was terrific
> 
> Our visit with my 50 year plus friend of the family was excellent. All three of us had a great time.
> 
> Even better - the day after M2 acknowledged that, while she loved the show, she was disappointed that Lin Manuel Miranda - (who plays Hamilton) and Chris Jackson (who plays George Washington) - were not working that night - and under studies played their parts.
> 
> She was a bit hesitant to say this - because - this was a $2,500 weekend - and she did not want to seem ungrateful.....
> 
> The thing is - she was disappointed about that - so I told her I was glad she said so.
> 
> I sort of saw it different - but there has to be room in a marriage for different viewpoints.
> 
> The way I saw it was this. There was a security incident occurred just outside the theatre. Some guy, parked a pickup truck on Broadway and left it there - with suspicious contents in the back.
> 
> The police shut the street down for almost an hour. Luckily we were already in the theatre. But the woman sitting next to us, who flew in from California just to see the show, arrived at 7:45 PM. Show starts at 8. The police had just shut the street down. Wouldn't let her through. She missed 1/3 of the show.
> 
> So I was glad that we arrived early. And that the truck didn't contain a real bomb.


The thing about both people who the glass half full and the people who see it half empty is that they both distort reality to a lesser or greater extent so that they get what they want out of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland

marduk said:


> The thing about both people who the glass half full and the people who see it half empty is that they both distort reality to a lesser or greater extent so that they get what they want out of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Being a glass half full kind of person I would say it is not usually trying to distort reality but more an appreciation for what one has. Gratitude, not sure if it is a mindset or an emotion but it certainly makes for a better life experience.


----------



## Marduk

Holland said:


> Being a glass half full kind of person I would say it is not usually trying to distort reality but more an appreciation for what one has. Gratitude, not sure if it is a mindset or an emotion but it certainly makes for a better life experience.


That was meant for MEM.


----------



## Holland

marduk said:


> That was meant for MEM.


Yes I know. Just chatting away here


----------



## Marduk

Holland said:


> Yes I know. Just chatting away here


Ok, then. 

Sure, at a superficial level looking at bad things in a positive way can reduce stress and help you see problems as opportunities. I try to do that, too. 

As long as you know that calling things as good or bad is attachment and distortion. 

And such things can be used against you and lead to trouble, too. 

Do you know the old adage about how to get things done at work? By finding someone very busy and giving it to them?


----------



## Blondilocks

All I know is that when my glass of Chocolate milk gets half full, I panic and jump up and fill it up. Of course, I'm viewing it as a bad thing.

A little lost on your adage and how it applies, though.


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,
You my friend are frightfully good at this. Remove the truck from the equation and M2 and I have directly opposing views. 

I thought the two understudies were superb. Lin Manuel is a genius writer / composer / director. But he's only a 'good' actor. 

If it wasn't HIS show, he wouldn't be the lead actor. 

I'm laughing as I cringe, M2 has managed to create the level of synchronicity associated with fusion. Ugh....




marduk said:


> Ok, then.
> 
> Sure, at a superficial level looking at bad things in a positive way can reduce stress and help you see problems as opportunities. I try to do that, too.
> 
> As long as you know that calling things as good or bad is attachment and distortion.
> 
> And such things can be used against you and lead to trouble, too.
> 
> Do you know the old adage about how to get things done at work? By finding someone very busy and giving it to them?


----------



## heartsbeating

marduk said:


> The thing about both people who the glass half full and the people who see it half empty is that they both distort reality to a lesser or greater extent so that they get what they want out of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is no glass!


----------



## heartsbeating

Holland said:


> Being a glass half full kind of person I would say it is not usually trying to distort reality but more an appreciation for what one has. Gratitude, not sure if it is a mindset or an emotion but it certainly makes for a better life experience.


I'm chatting here too. I'd consider gratitude as a way of being. 

From the small amount I've read on this, gratitude can be present for all experiences. The array of emotions and perceptions are felt without the base of gratitude being affected. Feel it all and face it and still have gratitude.

I can't say it's my state of being but I have experienced and observed a few people who live this and they seem to radiate joy. Even experiencing major loss and grief and still demonstrating gratitude. In my mind, I consider such people as 'resilient' but really, I think it's that they have cultivated gratitude.


----------



## always_alone

heartsbeating said:


> There is no glass!


There is a glass; it's just that it's the wrong size.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> I'm laughing as I cringe, M2 has managed to create the level of synchronicity associated with fusion. Ugh....


M2 created it?

Not quite sure why it's a problem that one person would've preferred the big name and the other enjoyed the clear talent. :scratchhead: 

I'm presuming both of you had a good time?


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> There is a glass; it's just that it's the wrong size.


OMG that is a perfect articulation of who you seem to be A_A.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> M2 created it?
> 
> Not quite sure why it's a problem that one person would've preferred the big name and the other enjoyed the clear talent. :scratchhead:
> 
> I'm presuming both of you had a good time?


My point is this:
- in the same way that people who don't like to work sometimes try to offload the work that they have to do onto people that already have too much work (because they like to work)...

- people who don't like to be happy offload their unhappiness onto people that know how to be happy even in troubling times (because they know how to do that).

You can call those kinds of people resilient, and probably be right, but they're also really good at taking on other people's burdens for them.

In a way that really doesn't make both people happy.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes - it is also true that if you have a partner who LIKES being happy and mostly is happy AND they like being 'in synch' with you as much humanly possible and have sort of managed to get you to mostly want to be in synch with them THEN their happiness is extremely contagious. 

Happy is not my default state. I'd say that my default state is - content and thoughtful. Sans M2 my mental focus is mostly split between the past and the future. 

She pulls me fully into the present - with her happiness. 

I would call this the upside of synchronization. 







marduk said:


> My point is this:
> - in the same way that people who don't like to work sometimes try to offload the work that they have to do onto people that already have too much work (because they like to work)...
> 
> - people who don't like to be happy offload their unhappiness onto people that know how to be happy even in troubling times (because they know how to do that).
> 
> You can call those kinds of people resilient, and probably be right, but they're also really good at taking on other people's burdens for them.
> 
> In a way that really doesn't make both people happy.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> My point is this:
> - in the same way that people who don't like to work sometimes try to offload the work that they have to do onto people that already have too much work (because they like to work)...
> 
> - people who don't like to be happy offload their unhappiness onto people that know how to be happy even in troubling times (because they know how to do that).
> 
> You can call those kinds of people resilient, and probably be right, but they're also really good at taking on other people's burdens for them.
> 
> In a way that really doesn't make both people happy.


I'm sorry, but I think I've completely lost the plot.

How is stating some (slight?!?) disappointment in missing the big name "offloading unhappiness"?

When MEM first posted that story, my thought was: I could easily agree with both of them, but I wonder how good the understudy was compared to the big name.

I dunno. I am a critic by nature, so I don't equate criticism with unhappiness or lack of gratitude, or the offloading of anything. It's just criticism.

For example, one time I was supposed to take a flight that was delayed, and I was stuck in a smal crowdedl airport with no decent food and the most disgusting washroom known to humankind for about 8 hours. So, you know, I expressed my "disappointment" more than once. But I also got together with some of the other passengers, we pulled out a game and played the time away. So, you know, we made the best of it.


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Yes - it is also true that if you have a partner who LIKES being happy and mostly is happy AND they like being 'in synch' with you as much humanly possible and have sort of managed to get you to mostly want to be in synch with them THEN their happiness is extremely contagious.
> 
> Happy is not my default state. I'd say that my default state is - content and thoughtful. Sans M2 my mental focus is mostly split between the past and the future.
> 
> She pulls me fully into the present - with her happiness.
> 
> I would call this the upside of synchronization.


I'm not sure what you are saying.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> I'm sorry, but I think I've completely lost the plot.
> 
> How is stating some (slight?!?) disappointment in missing the big name "offloading unhappiness"?
> 
> When MEM first posted that story, my thought was: I could easily agree with both of them, but I wonder how good the understudy was compared to the big name.
> 
> I dunno. I am a critic by nature, so I don't equate criticism with unhappiness or lack of gratitude, or the offloading of anything. It's just criticism.
> 
> For example, one time I was supposed to take a flight that was delayed, and I was stuck in a smal crowdedl airport with no decent food and the most disgusting washroom known to humankind for about 8 hours. So, you know, I expressed my "disappointment" more than once. But I also got together with some of the other passengers, we pulled out a game and played the time away. So, you know, we made the best of it.


Here's the dynamic I'm aiming at. Which I've heard MEM talk about sometimes.

He has made a decision to 'make the best of things.' In his life, in his marriage, in his approach to decision making. Specifically, one of his major goals is to be emotionally connected and invested in his wife.

These things are hard work. Like, the hardest work.

I have been in scenarios where my wife just goes into a spiral of suck. Everything sucks. Flights are late. The food is terrible. The seats are too small. Security is a PITA. Whatever.

And sometimes my response is to try to get her in a good mood. Draw out the negativity like poison and replace it with optimisim. 

When I do just that, she's still mad. But -- here's the thing -- she will describe that flight as being good, but frustrating. And then go on to have positive interactions with other people because I buoyed her up. But to me it's still all complaints and negativity because she wants more shots of positivity.

But... if at some point I just say something like "listen, you're a big girl and everything's fine. Travelling is annoying but we are going to get there and I'm not going to fix this for you." She'll get really mad... But then get in a good mood. 

And the funny thing is that *this is exactly the same response as when I get mad at her.*

Which leads me to believe that when I cut off the external supply of positivity when she doesn't need it any more, she starts to supply it on her own.

And it's not just a transference of happiness from one to the other.

And I'm not talking about a conversation about how flying sucks. I'm talking about the conversations where one side is looking for the other side to make it all better and take on the negativity for them, and fix it.

People who are good at doing that can find themselves doing it, forever.


----------



## imtamnew

jld said:


> The answer is only unacceptable if we have made it so. There is nothing inherently wrong with having a "fat ass" or admitting a "passing girl's body is too nice." Some people find fat asses beautiful and no one person in the world holds the corner on a nice body.
> 
> I think transparency in marriage could prevent and heal so many problems. But how to get past the fear of embracing it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wish it was that simple.
My marriage is not in the best of places on a good day. So why would I waste my time explaining myself over and over.

I have no interest in a skewed marriage where as the husband I have to babysit the wife.


----------



## jld

im_tam said:


> I wish it was that simple.
> My marriage is not in the best of places on a good day. So why would I waste my time explaining myself over and over.
> 
> I have no interest in a skewed marriage where as the husband I have to babysit the wife.


She probably does not want to babysit you, either. And even if you each got mad initially at what was said, I bet you both have the maturity deep down to reflect on it and learn from it.

Way too much fear of what is said instead of reflecting on why it bothers us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imtamnew

There is no fear here. Its just the dislike for discussing the same thing over and over for the next couple of days.

So if I said a particular woman in my building looks good. Mind you just used the adjective GOOD and not HOT or Sexy or anything. The plain simple word Good.
I will have to listen over the next few days about how I picture her naked all the time. Why I am not already having an affair with her and a lot and I mean a really lot of BS.

So its just better that I don't comment at all.


----------



## MEM2020

Hmmm

95% of the time M2 is in a happy, upbeat and ready, able and willing to play mode.

During the entire weekend, she spent less than 5 minutes expressing her disappointment. And half of that was due to me drawing her out, getting her to talk about it a little. 

It is true that - in a subset of that 95% happy space she can be - difficult. But not - difficult as in 'bltchy and negative'. More like 'complicated and contrary'. This is quite entertaining managed properly....

If asked to quantify I'd say she saw the glass as 3/4 full - as regards the Hamilton show. But she wasn't a downer about it. Not at all. 










marduk said:


> Here's the dynamic I'm aiming at. Which I've heard MEM talk about sometimes.
> 
> He has made a decision to 'make the best of things.' In his life, in his marriage, in his approach to decision making. Specifically, one of his major goals is to be emotionally connected and invested in his wife.
> 
> These things are hard work. Like, the hardest work.
> 
> I have been in scenarios where my wife just goes into a spiral of suck. Everything sucks. Flights are late. The food is terrible. The seats are too small. Security is a PITA. Whatever.
> 
> And sometimes my response is to try to get her in a good mood. Draw out the negativity like poison and replace it with optimisim.
> 
> When I do just that, she's still mad. But -- here's the thing -- she will describe that flight as being good, but frustrating. And then go on to have positive interactions with other people because I buoyed her up. But to me it's still all complaints and negativity because she wants more shots of positivity.
> 
> But... if at some point I just say something like "listen, you're a big girl and everything's fine. Travelling is annoying but we are going to get there and I'm not going to fix this for you." She'll get really mad... But then get in a good mood.
> 
> And the funny thing is that *this is exactly the same response as when I get mad at her.*
> 
> Which leads me to believe that when I cut off the external supply of positivity when she doesn't need it any more, she starts to supply it on her own.
> 
> And it's not just a transference of happiness from one to the other.
> 
> And I'm not talking about a conversation about how flying sucks. I'm talking about the conversations where one side is looking for the other side to make it all better and take on the negativity for them, and fix it.
> 
> People who are good at doing that can find themselves doing it, forever.


----------



## Blondilocks

"So its just better that I don't comment at all."

By George, I think you've got it.


----------



## jld

im_tam said:


> There is no fear here. Its just the dislike for discussing the same thing over and over for the next couple of days.
> 
> So if I said a particular woman in my building looks good. Mind you just used the adjective GOOD and not HOT or Sexy or anything. The plain simple word Good.
> I will have to listen over the next few days about how I picture her naked all the time. Why I am not already having an affair with her and a lot and I mean a really lot of BS.
> 
> So its just better that I don't comment at all.


I guess you have to decide what you think it's better to say or not say. It sounds like you might notice a woman's body but it's not like it's affecting you in any profound way.

If you did feel affected by it and wanted your wife's support with working through it, then I think it would be good for you to feel that you could be completely transparent with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imtamnew

jld said:


> I guess you have to decide what you think it's better to say or not say. It sounds like you might notice a woman's body but it's not like it's affecting you in any profound way.
> 
> If you did feel affected by it and wanted your wife's support with working through it, then I think it would be good for you to feel that you could be completely transparent with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I have no idea what you are talking about!!!!!!!1

I notice a LOT and act on NOTHING because for good or bad, I am a married man and adultery while its so tempting is not a path I want to take.


----------



## Blondilocks

It sounds like his wife is teaching him that she doesn't want to hear that shyte. If he's going to annoy her with these pointless comments, then she's going to make him miserable. What is the point of even telling your wife that you think a neighbor looks good? Does your wife care? If not, why should she? Do you want her to start noticing all the male neighbors and giving you updates on their desirability?


----------



## imtamnew

Blondilocks said:


> It sounds like his wife is teaching him that she doesn't want to hear that shyte. If he's going to annoy her with these pointless comments, then she's going to make him miserable. What is the point of even telling your wife that you think a neighbor looks good? Does your wife care? If not, why should she? Do you want her to start noticing all the male neighbors and giving you updates on their desirability?


I think there is some confusion here. I never comment on anyone because I know how my wife will react.

Its not like I have commented on them and she is fed up of me describing other women.

She tries very very hard to get me to comment on someone but all she gets is ...'hmmmm', because I have once or twice responded in the positive to what she was saying only to have it bite me back.


----------



## jld

im_tam said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about!!!!!!!1
> 
> I notice a LOT and act on NOTHING because for good or bad, I am a married man and adultery while its so tempting is not a path I want to take.


I think the best way to prevent an affair is to be transparent with your spouse when you feel attracted to another person. Total honesty and openness with your partner has a way of killing the attraction, or at least taking the power out of it.

I believe in transparency in marriage. I think it is critical. I think many problems could be avoided, caught in their infancy, if each partner could speak their heart to the other, and know they would be heard and helped through their challenges.


----------



## Blondilocks

Ahh, she set you up. Shame on her. Yep, I'd keep my mouth shut for sure.


----------



## imtamnew

I am not faithful to my wife. I am faithful to myself.

This is the reason why I don't cheat and why I am not worried about developing feelings for someone else.


----------



## Blondilocks

im_tam said:


> I think there is some confusion here. I never comment on anyone because I know how my wife will react.
> 
> Its not like I have commented on them and she is fed up of me describing other women.
> 
> She tries very very hard to get me to comment on someone but all she gets is ...'hmmmm', because I have once or twice responded in the positive to what she was saying only to have it bite me back.


It would have helped if you had stated your example was a hypothetical situation.


----------



## jld

im_tam said:


> I am not faithful to my wife. I am faithful to myself.
> 
> This is the reason why I don't cheat and why I am not worried about developing feelings for someone else.


Transparency leads to deeper intimacy. It can start in one area but extend to another.

Very good that you remain faithful because it is part of your value system, btw. What comes from within is powerful.


----------



## imtamnew

Blondilocks said:


> Ahh, she set you up. Shame on her. Yep, I'd keep my mouth shut for sure.


I don't think she does it knowingly. She loves to sabotage her own happiness. 

Been married for over 12 years to her. I know when she is trying to push my buttons and get me to say something.

We are just one of those mismatched people who are like 50.001% perfect for eachother. So the scale is not tipping over into a breakup.


----------



## imtamnew

jld said:


> Transparency leads to deeper intimacy. It can start in one area but extend to another.
> 
> Very good that you remain faithful because it is part of your value system, btw. What comes from within is powerful.


On a lighter note, I hate my value system. lol.

Someday I will have a big fight with God on this funny game he plays with me.


----------



## jld

im_tam said:


> On a lighter note, I hate my value system. lol.
> 
> Someday I will have a big fight with God on this funny game he plays with me.


Having an affair would not make you happy. CWI should teach us all that.


----------



## imtamnew

jld said:


> Having an affair would not make you happy. CWI should teach us all that.


From my noble Koran:
Al-Baqarah-86: 
Those are they who have bought the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter. Their torment shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped.


----------



## jld

im_tam said:


> From my noble Koran:
> Al-Baqarah-86:
> Those are they who have bought the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter. Their torment shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped.


Fear of hell is likely one reason some people do not cheat. But some in CWI might say that living through cheating is its own hell.


----------



## imtamnew

jld said:


> Fear of hell is likely one reason some people do not cheat. But some in CWI might say that living through cheating is its own hell.



I don't exactly believe in the concept of Karma.
But I have seen that the people who live honest lives generally have a smile that is comforting to everyone who sees them.

I believe that almost all of us are in reality good people. We don't want to cheat nor do harm to others. Left to our own devices we will not snatch away what does not belong to us.

So every time we do something against the noble nature of our hearts we kill a part of it. Do it enough times and we can no longer enjoy life.

During one of my talks with my wife she asked me if I planned to cheat on her. I said No. She said that maybe she will forgive me.
I started laughing because the woman who will forgive such a thing cannot have any part in my life.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> And I'm not talking about a conversation about how flying sucks. I'm talking about the conversations where one side is looking for the other side to make it all better and take on the negativity for them, and fix it.
> 
> People who are good at doing that can find themselves doing it, forever.


Okay, I get what you're saying. Or at least think I do.

But here is what stands out for me: when you describe these situations, you equivocate on who the "people" are. At first, they are the ones looking to offload. But then they are the ones who are accepting the "offloading".

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to nit-pick your grammar here, but get at what I see is the issue. Which is that it takes two to tango.

You make it sound as though only one person is trying to make the best of a situation, and in so doing, that person is allowing themselves to be a doormat to the other person, who is simply offloading their negative feelings/attitudes/actions onto the other person. 

And I get that it sometimes happens this way. But I think more often than not, it is two people feeding the dynamic. Do you honestly think that MEM is the only one in his relationship that is seeking emotional intimacy and connection in his relationship? Do you honestly think that you are the only one in yours?

In your example, there is also the person who doesn't seem to be capable of handling any sort of negativity without trying to make it go away instantly. And I get why. It's generally a drag to be hanging around someone who is in a bad mood for whatever reason. It is easy to take other people's critical comments personally, or as your personal problem. But the more you insist that the bad mood go away, the longer it will persist. The more you insist that any negative comment or criticism is something that needs to be "fixed" or is some sort of huge problem, the more the negatives get fixated on. Know what I mean.

As you so rightly say: some things you simply cannot fix. If you are trying to create the ideal mate in the perfect world, you will always be frustrated. And I often get the sense that this is the wall you frequently bang your head against.


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,

This is as objective as I can be - about such things. 

We had just checked into a Marriott resort in Maui. Right after putting our bags down in the room, I noticed M2 looked distressed. Asked her why - learned that the green paint color of the room was and I quote: nauseating

Offered to call the desk, switch rooms, paused and mentioned that there was a good chance the hotel had elected a consistent color scheme throughout the building. She said: give me a minute. I said ok. Five minutes later - she was good to go - never mentioned the room color again other than to respond when I would subsequently tease her about it long after the trip was done...

But here's the thing. That's the same trip where - on a deserted lava tube beach with lots of semi private lava 'rooms' she suddenly decided to have sex with me. And then repeated that adventure when she hopped the fence at the Nakalele blowhole went round the corner with me out of sight of the tourists. 

There isn't any causal link here - I didn't handle the hotel thing hoping for any type result. Handled it because she is abnormally color sensitive. I loathe loud bursts of sound. She hates certain colors. We are the same underlying type - just have different stimulus aversions. 

So this was a longer post than intended. But what really happened in the hotel room. She said what was true, and I didn't make it about 'me', since it had nothing to do with me. I chose instead to be helpful. 

This is where that 'low key' thing, that I likely overdo - is priceless. I could have reacted with a: I can't believe you are so ungrateful - this is an expensive trip and you are making a thing out of the paint color in a beautiful resort. But the thing is - I didn't even think that. I just thought - oh - that color sensitivity thing is happening - what can I do to help. 

And yes - being grateful is important. By the end of that trip we both expressed thst sentiment. M2 to me, for taking her and me to her for making it a fantastic experience.....




marduk said:


> My point is this:
> - in the same way that people who don't like to work sometimes try to offload the work that they have to do onto people that already have too much work (because they like to work)...
> 
> - people who don't like to be happy offload their unhappiness onto people that know how to be happy even in troubling times (because they know how to do that).
> 
> You can call those kinds of people resilient, and probably be right, but they're also really good at taking on other people's burdens for them.
> 
> In a way that really doesn't make both people happy.


----------



## MEM2020

Always,

Marduk has helped me refine this a bit. My 'in the moment' reactions are exceptionally helpful. This is what allows M2 to be highly transparent without fear of getting dismissed or worse critiqued. 

Where I'm doormatting is in the delayed response. We would not have seen my family friend if M2 hadn't looped back to me and said: hey, she's virtual family (which is true), call her 

I would have dropped it. Not dropped it and been mad. Just sort of accepted it. I hate feeling angry. And historically pushing some thing like this - leads to conflict and then to some type of combat. 





always_alone said:


> Okay, I get what you're saying. Or at least think I do.
> 
> But here is what stands out for me: when you describe these situations, you equivocate on who the "people" are. At first, they are the ones looking to offload. But then they are the ones who are accepting the "offloading".
> 
> Just to be clear, I'm not trying to nit-pick your grammar here, but get at what I see is the issue. Which is that it takes two to tango.
> 
> You make it sound as though only one person is trying to make the best of a situation, and in so doing, that person is allowing themselves to be a doormat to the other person, who is simply offloading their negative feelings/attitudes/actions onto the other person.
> 
> And I get that it sometimes happens this way. But I think more often than not, it is two people feeding the dynamic. Do you honestly think that MEM is the only one in his relationship that is seeking emotional intimacy and connection in his relationship? Do you honestly think that you are the only one in yours?
> 
> In your example, there is also the person who doesn't seem to be capable of handling any sort of negativity without trying to make it go away instantly. And I get why. It's generally a drag to be hanging around someone who is in a bad mood for whatever reason. It is easy to take other people's critical comments personally, or as your personal problem. But the more you insist that the bad mood go away, the longer it will persist. The more you insist that any negative comment or criticism is something that needs to be "fixed" or is some sort of huge problem, the more the negatives get fixated on. Know what I mean.
> 
> As you so rightly say: some things you simply cannot fix. If you are trying to create the ideal mate in the perfect world, you will always be frustrated. And I often get the sense that this is the wall you frequently bang your head against.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Where I'm doormatting is in the delayed response. We would not have seen my family friend if M2 hadn't looped back to me and said: hey, she's virtual family (which is true), call her
> 
> I would have dropped it. Not dropped it and been mad. Just sort of accepted it. I hate feeling angry. And historically pushing some thing like this - leads to conflict and then to some type of combat.


Absolutely agree that it's important for you (meaning anyone) to stand up for what is important, for what you believe in. 

But you don't need to feel angry to do it. When my SO tells me I should do something, he isn't mad at me, or resentful. He's calling it as he sees it.

Even if there is pushback, it doesn't have to lead to anger. Just because someone else is angry doesn't mean you have to be. Just because you are fighting doesn't mean you have to be angry. Indeed fights are often much more productive if they can be done without anger, and with efforts to understand all sides of the issue. 

Though, of course, I realize that it is much much easier to talk the talk than it is to walk the walk.


----------



## MEM2020

This is a stylistic flaw (of mine). Historically the way this would go is me - pushing instead of persuading. 

In this case, in hindsight, persuading would have been: hey, you LIKE this person and she LIKES you. We'll have FUN. 

That requires thought because my reflex is more to say: This is 180 degrees out of synch with how I'd handle this, situation reversed. And equally at odds with what you'd expect MY reaction to be if it was YOUR family.

To an Emopath / telepath lite - this comes across as: you're being a hypocritical bltch. Stop it RIGHT NOW. 

This is like using a hammer to 'pass the ketchup', it will arrive, but the bottle is likely to be the worse for the journey....

Thing is - and this is the aspie-lite - element of it. There's a voice inside saying loudly, and indignantly, what she's doing is WRONG. You shouldn't HAVE TO persuade her. 

Why I sometimes do nothing. I'm gridlocked. That voice is unhelpful....






always_alone said:


> Absolutely agree that it's important for you (meaning anyone) to stand up for what is important, for what you believe in.
> 
> But you don't need to feel angry to do it. When my SO tells me I should do something, he isn't mad at me, or resentful. He's calling it as he sees it.
> 
> Even if there is pushback, it doesn't have to lead to anger. Just because someone else is angry doesn't mean you have to be. Just because you are fighting doesn't mean you have to be angry. Indeed fights are often much more productive if they can be done without anger, and with efforts to understand all sides of the issue.
> 
> Though, of course, I realize that it is much much easier to talk the talk than it is to walk the walk.


----------



## MEM2020

IM,

Why don't you just ask her why she distrusts you? Not in a combative angry way. In a genuinely confused - I don't get it - manner. 

And I wouldn't ask IF she distrusts you. Her behavior is clear enough. I'd ask WHY she feels that way. 




im_tam said:


> I don't exactly believe in the concept of Karma.
> But I have seen that the people who live honest lives generally have a smile that is comforting to everyone who sees them.
> 
> I believe that almost all of us are in reality good people. We don't want to cheat nor do harm to others. Left to our own devices we will not snatch away what does not belong to us.
> 
> So every time we do something against the noble nature of our hearts we kill a part of it. Do it enough times and we can no longer enjoy life.
> 
> During one of my talks with my wife she asked me if I planned to cheat on her. I said No. She said that maybe she will forgive me.
> I started laughing because the woman who will forgive such a thing cannot have any part in my life.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> Okay, I get what you're saying. Or at least think I do.
> 
> But here is what stands out for me: when you describe these situations, you equivocate on who the "people" are. At first, they are the ones looking to offload. But then they are the ones who are accepting the "offloading".
> 
> Just to be clear, I'm not trying to nit-pick your grammar here, but get at what I see is the issue. Which is that it takes two to tango.
> 
> You make it sound as though only one person is trying to make the best of a situation, and in so doing, that person is allowing themselves to be a doormat to the other person, who is simply offloading their negative feelings/attitudes/actions onto the other person.
> 
> And I get that it sometimes happens this way. But I think more often than not, it is two people feeding the dynamic. Do you honestly think that MEM is the only one in his relationship that is seeking emotional intimacy and connection in his relationship? Do you honestly think that you are the only one in yours?
> 
> In your example, there is also the person who doesn't seem to be capable of handling any sort of negativity without trying to make it go away instantly. And I get why. It's generally a drag to be hanging around someone who is in a bad mood for whatever reason. It is easy to take other people's critical comments personally, or as your personal problem. But the more you insist that the bad mood go away, the longer it will persist. The more you insist that any negative comment or criticism is something that needs to be "fixed" or is some sort of huge problem, the more the negatives get fixated on. Know what I mean.
> 
> As you so rightly say: some things you simply cannot fix. If you are trying to create the ideal mate in the perfect world, you will always be frustrated. And I often get the sense that this is the wall you frequently bang your head against.


You're right. I was equivocating. 

To unpack what I was trying to get at - based in MEM's humbleness and emotional integrity - is that we all have checkboxes that we like to check. 

Mine is very much 'I got something done.' When we travel, my goal is to get everyone from point A to B as quickly, safely, and painlessly as possible. 

I think some people - like MEM maybe - is to get the 'I made my wife happy' checkbox. 

I think some people - like MEM's wife maybe - is to get the 'I'm happy' checkbox. 

In that hypothetical scenario, MEM could get some measure of fulfillment if his wife is happy. And she gets fulfillment because she's happy. 

And potentially, MEM being happy floats gently down to the bottom of that list. Yet there's enough checkboxes being ticked off that everybody goes along with that in a day to day view. Even though nobody's really looking out for MEM. 

Thanks for that A_A. You really made me think about what I was trying to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> This is as objective as I can be - about such things.
> 
> We had just checked into a Marriott resort in Maui. Right after putting our bags down in the room, I noticed M2 looked distressed. Asked her why - learned that the green paint color of the room was and I quote: nauseating
> 
> Offered to call the desk, switch rooms, paused and mentioned that there was a good chance the hotel had elected a consistent color scheme throughout the building. She said: give me a minute. I said ok. Five minutes later - she was good to go - never mentioned the room color again other than to respond when I would subsequently tease her about it long after the trip was done...
> 
> But here's the thing. That's the same trip where - on a deserted lava tube beach with lots of semi private lava 'rooms' she suddenly decided to have sex with me. And then repeated that adventure when she hopped the fence at the Nakalele blowhole went round the corner with me out of sight of the tourists.
> 
> There isn't any causal link here - I didn't handle the hotel thing hoping for any type result. Handled it because she is abnormally color sensitive. I loathe loud bursts of sound. She hates certain colors. We are the same underlying type - just have different stimulus aversions.
> 
> So this was a longer post than intended. But what really happened in the hotel room. She said what was true, and I didn't make it about 'me', since it had nothing to do with me. I chose instead to be helpful.
> 
> This is where that 'low key' thing, that I likely overdo - is priceless. I could have reacted with a: I can't believe you are so ungrateful - this is an expensive trip and you are making a thing out of the paint color in a beautiful resort. But the thing is - I didn't even think that. I just thought - oh - that color sensitivity thing is happening - what can I do to help.
> 
> And yes - being grateful is important. By the end of that trip we both expressed thst sentiment. M2 to me, for taking her and me to her for making it a fantastic experience.....


Oh, by the way, my wife and I smile when pictures of that blowhole come on the screensaver. 

Because it also lived up to its namesake for us!

The kids love that place, too... For different reasons.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland

heartsbeating said:


> I'm chatting here too. I'd consider gratitude as a way of being.
> 
> From the small amount I've read on this, gratitude can be present for all experiences. The array of emotions and perceptions are felt without the base of gratitude being affected. Feel it all and face it and still have gratitude.
> 
> I can't say it's my state of being but I have experienced and observed a few people who live this and they seem to radiate joy. Even experiencing major loss and grief and still demonstrating gratitude. In my mind, I consider such people as 'resilient' but really, I think it's that they have cultivated gratitude.


Yes and yes.

My Dad has a saying that I will paraphrase, basically "be greatful for where you were born". In other words appreciate the freedoms and privileges that you were given by being born into the life you were.

Now there have been some enormous struggles and hardships along the way but there is always the hope that life will get back to a normal, happy place once those struggles have been faced and dealt with. At the end of the day my kids and I have fresh air, a support network that is golden and plenty of food to eat. Life is good.

The cultivated gratitude thing is so true and with some mindfulness is can be achieved. I am not a religious person but I have a belief in The Universe as a power and force that protects and guides us. I listen to those lessons and have learnt to cultivate gratitude. Possibly I am a simpleton that sees the silver lining but it works.

If I get into the car and realise I have forgotten something and have to go back into the house I thank The Universe for doing that and possible saving me from being on the road at the wrong time and having an accident. 

Years ago we lived overseas and in this particular town when a rainbow came out it was mostly in the same place, many times the kids and I would be in the car and I would say "let's go and find the end of the rainbow". I can still remember how much fun this was, how they squealed with happiness. Of course we never got to the end of the rainbow, I knew it was impossible but I am a simple woman that has always enjoyed raising my kids to see the delight in the most simple of things.

But like Marduk said, being a half glass full person can be a rod for our own backs. After all, I stayed in a failing marriage for too long because I pretended there was hope. 

These days, balancing genuine positivity and gratitude against reality is more the goal.


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,

Yes. So that did happen. The deprioritization thing. But it's important to note that I never aspired to a 50-50 marriage. Not that I think there is anything wrong with such a thing. Just that - when I love someone I WANT to take care of them. 

And where that expressed itself in a bone on bone manner was in money issues. Actually - as our MC said to me - this has absolutely nothing to do with money - and everything to do with control. 

So we've come along nicely in that area. M2's gut reactions to anything I do she considers 'wasteful', will always be un generous. But give some breathing space her delayed reaction will be consistently supportive. And I am perfectly fine with that. 




marduk said:


> You're right. I was equivocating.
> 
> To unpack what I was trying to get at - based in MEM's humbleness and emotional integrity - is that we all have checkboxes that we like to check.
> 
> Mine is very much 'I got something done.' When we travel, my goal is to get everyone from point A to B as quickly, safely, and painlessly as possible.
> 
> I think some people - like MEM maybe - is to get the 'I made my wife happy' checkbox.
> 
> I think some people - like MEM's wife maybe - is to get the 'I'm happy' checkbox.
> 
> In that hypothetical scenario, MEM could get some measure of fulfillment if his wife is happy. And she gets fulfillment because she's happy.
> 
> And potentially, MEM being happy floats gently down to the bottom of that list. Yet there's enough checkboxes being ticked off that everybody goes along with that in a day to day view. Even though nobody's really looking out for MEM.
> 
> Thanks for that A_A. You really made me think about what I was trying to say.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

always_alone said:


> Absolutely agree that it's important for you (meaning anyone) to stand up for what is important, for what you believe in.
> 
> But you don't need to feel angry to do it. When my SO tells me I should do something, he isn't mad at me, or resentful. He's calling it as he sees it.
> 
> Even if there is pushback, it doesn't have to lead to anger. Just because someone else is angry doesn't mean you have to be. Just because you are fighting doesn't mean you have to be angry. Indeed fights are often much more productive if they can be done without anger, and with efforts to understand all sides of the issue.
> 
> Though, of course, I realize that it is much much easier to talk the talk than it is to walk the walk.


I am guilty of anger in these situations. 

It happens in a flash. I don't understand why it triggers me. I just have to take a deep breath and manage it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

Far,

This is why I love you two - you and Marduk - both of you value truth more than ego. It is a beautiful thing. 

As for me - I've just learned that - trying to force M2 to react 'in the moment' the way I want - is a certain train wreck. 





farsidejunky said:


> I am guilty of anger in these situations.
> 
> It happens in a flash. I don't understand why it triggers me. I just have to take a deep breath and manage it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> Far,
> 
> This is why I love you two - you and Marduk - both of you value truth more than ego. It is a beautiful thing.
> 
> As for me - I've just learned that - trying to force M2 to react 'in the moment' the way I want - is a certain train wreck.


Of course. Why would you need to? 

It only becomes a problem when you are owning her emotions for her. Then you are expecting her to behave a certain way to make you feel better. 

I would argue that is one of the most deceptive forms of control of one's partner.

And thank you for the compliment. It's mutual, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

At least I understand the sequence now. 

Her in the moment reaction - which is far from generous - produced a very angry (hurt -> anger) reaction from me, as her response is so different than mine. 

And then - it was game over - because it was no longer about the thing itself - it was instead, (for M2) about winning or losing. 

In her head - she fully grasps marriage is a collaboration. But she's hardwired to win at all costs - when she feels threatened. Which roughly translates into this: if she can't actually win, she'll make sure to try and do some damage. 

It would be easy to sit in judgement on that last bit - but - I don't. 

There's a famous psychology experiment comes to mind. In the experiment people spilt a fixed pot of money, typically 100 dollars. 

Participants are randomly paired. In each pair, there are two roles. 
Role 1: The splitter, this person has totally control over dividing the pot between themselves and their partner. They can split the pot anywhere between 99/1, and 1/99. 
Role 2: The yes/no person. This person receives the proposed split from the splitter and either accepts or rejects it. 

If they accept it, the money is disbursed according to the split defined by the splitter. It's real money and they get to keep it. If however they dislike the split, they can veto it in which case neither of them gets any money. 

The theory: The veto person would never exercise their veto power. Ever. Worst case they get $1. Better $1 than nothing. 

That is not what actually happened. What did happen is - when the yes/no person was presented with a split they felt was seriously unfair - they exercised their veto. 

Now - the most interesting thing was the pattern of behavior. The higher up the person was on the food chain - the more tolerant they were of a bad split. The lower they were, the less tolerant. Now from a purely practical standpoint this was completely contrary to expectation. A white male with a good job would 'in theory' be less impacted by missing out on thirty or forty dollars, than an African American making minimum wage. 

But - feelings - gut reactions - drive behavior more than thoughts. The upper middle class white guy would typically accept a lot less than a 50-50 split. But a disadvantaged minority would generally walk away from anything other than 50-50. 

So - M2 - perceives herself as 'less than'. Any perceived loss of control causes her to react - badly - in the moment.....






farsidejunky said:


> Of course. Why would you need to?
> 
> It only becomes a problem when you are owning her emotions for her. Then you are expecting her to behave a certain way to make you feel better.
> 
> I would argue that is one of the most deceptive forms of control of one's partner.
> 
> And thank you for the compliment. It's mutual, brother.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## imtamnew

Mem, my wife is a lot like your wife when it comes to winning at all costs.
So it's easier for my sanity to let it pass and respond when my time is right.


----------



## MEM2020

IM,

This - isn't - about - winning. 

It's about comprehension. Now it's true that - if you hit that tripwire - related to the power dynamic - you will get a very defensive reaction. 

But, if your intention truly is to understand - solely for the purpose of understanding - she will answer. And in that answer - you will learn something. 

That said - I'm gonna prepare you in advance. There are plenty of people whose behavior is wildly at odds with their goals. 

Generally that isn't true for M2. It IS true for folks who want a high level of interaction, but svck at interacting.....

Perhaps an explanation will clarify this a bit. Recently a close family member got divorced. Part of the reason for the divorce (and there were many) was that this family member believed that her spouse was OBLIGATED to spend a certain amount of time with her each week. Thing is, she wasn't much fun to be around. 

Reason I tolerate a fair amount of - utterly dysfunctional behavior - from M2, is she is absolutely committed to being an excellent partner. 

If she wasn't good to great in and out of bed this whole jealousy theme would be a total non starter....

Your response makes me think you've got the polarity reversed. This isn't about how you respond. It's about what you learn. 

This is where my aspie lite mindset is invaluable. I tolerate a certain amount of jealousy - which is a form of distrust. Don't like it, but work with it. But I disconnect when M2 goes into bunker mode and pretends that everything is fine - when it isn't. 

And yes - that's a type of warfare. M2 finds this disconnect far more painful than I do. You would call it a 180. And that is what it is. 

So the thing you ask is - why don't you trust me? And then you persist until you get an answer. 




im_tam said:


> Mem, my wife is a lot like your wife when it comes to winning at all costs.
> So it's easier for my sanity to let it pass and respond when my time is right.


----------



## MEM2020

IM,
Yes - timing is critical. I agree you ought not address this when she's melting down. But now - in between incidents - IS when you ought to approach this. 

Your comments sound more like open ended avoidance. 




im_tam said:


> Mem, my wife is a lot like your wife when it comes to winning at all costs.
> So it's easier for my sanity to let it pass and respond when my time is right.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Of course. Why would you need to?
> 
> It only becomes a problem when you are owning her emotions for her. Then *you are expecting her to behave a certain way to make you feel better. *
> 
> I would argue that is one of the most deceptive forms of control of one's partner.
> 
> And thank you for the compliment. It's mutual, brother.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Totally agree with the bolded.

Do you think you have improved in this area, far? Are you less emotionally dependent on your wife now?

You seem calmer and happier these days. Nice to see.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Totally agree with the bolded.
> 
> Do you think you have improved in this area, far? Are you less emotionally dependent on your wife now?
> 
> You seem calmer and happier these days. Nice to see.


For the most part, yes. 

But I still struggle in mood matching. I can walk myself through all the reasons why I know I should not do it in my head, but it still takes a ton of effort to not match.

Other than that, there is enough other stuff to focus on other than her. Lately, she has been getting less of me overall, and not by my deliberate intention. This jiu jitsu hobby with B10 has taken on a life of its own.

Not only that, she is happy working her business, so she is typically not as stressed out at the end of the day. 

Lots of changes in 2 1/2 years.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## heartsbeating

always_alone said:


> Absolutely agree that it's important for you (meaning anyone) to stand up for what is important, for what you believe in.
> 
> But you don't need to feel angry to do it. When my SO tells me I should do something, he isn't mad at me, or resentful. He's calling it as he sees it.
> 
> Even if there is pushback, it doesn't have to lead to anger. Just because someone else is angry doesn't mean you have to be. Just because you are fighting doesn't mean you have to be angry. Indeed fights are often much more productive if they can be done without anger, and with efforts to understand all sides of the issue.
> 
> Though, of course, I realize that it is much much easier to talk the talk than it is to walk the walk.


Well said. What you have described is assertiveness. 

I've recently felt riled up with work. Hubs thinks I could channel that effectively and suggested I contact the CEO to express my thoughts in a constructive way. That's what he would do. Granted there could be risk in that. Another option is to not overthink things. I'm still learning how to feel both passionate and healthily detached. Right now I'd be too riled-up to advocate effectively. 

As a smaller step, I introduced myself and initiated conversation with a visiting manager. Discussing a specific concern (where I felt he ducked and dived accountability), I suggested / requested that those making the decisions consult with those closest to the work and related that back to purpose. He invited me to the next management meeting. I don't have delusion or expectation of anything being done differently but at the very least, I spoke up. And it may be that my values are not aligned with the values of this organization.

A cooler, assertive head often prevails. I'm working on that.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> For the most part, yes.
> 
> But I still struggle in mood matching. I can walk myself through all the reasons why I know I should not do it in my head, but it still takes a ton of effort to not match.
> 
> Other than that, there is enough other stuff to focus on other than her. Lately, she has been getting less of me overall, and not by my deliberate intention. This jiu jitsu hobby with B10 has taken on a life of its own.
> 
> Not only that, she is happy working her business, so she is typically not as stressed out at the end of the day.
> 
> Lots of changes in 2 1/2 years.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Good to hear, far. But can you explain "mood matching," please?


----------



## heartsbeating

MEM11363 said:


> But give some breathing space her delayed reaction will be consistently supportive. And I am perfectly fine with that.


I commend M2 for requesting the 5 minutes and getting herself to a place of acceptance. Think of those micro-decisions firing up when she consciously recognizes her default and then adjusts. It's much easier, although that is deceptive, to continue what we know rather than change.


----------



## imtamnew

I will keep you guys posted. 

Thanks everyone.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Good to hear, far. But can you explain "mood matching," please?


If she is in a lousy mood and, as Mem likes to describe it, starts to poke me, I struggle to maintain my mood through her poking.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> If she is in a lousy mood and, as Mem likes to describe it, starts to poke me, I struggle to maintain my mood through her poking.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think GI described this once. She said her husband took his moods from her. 
@GettingIt, is that what you meant, this thing that far is talking about?


----------



## always_alone

farsidejunky said:


> It only becomes a problem when you are owning her emotions for her. Then you are expecting her to behave a certain way to make you feel better.
> 
> I would argue that is one of the most deceptive forms of control of one's partner.


Bingo. Exactly this. It is all very well and good to criticize your (one"s) wife for being controlling and difficult. But no fair when you are playing exactly the same game.


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> Bingo. Exactly this. It is all very well and good to criticize your (one"s) wife for being controlling and difficult. But no fair when you are playing exactly the same game.


I think a lot of these couples are similar, equal matches so to speak. But since only one partner is here, we do not get to hear from the other side.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Thing is - and this is the aspie-lite - element of it. There's a voice inside saying loudly, and indignantly, what she's doing is WRONG. You shouldn't HAVE TO persuade her.
> 
> Why I sometimes do nothing. I'm gridlocked. That voice is unhelpful....


Ah, so it isn't just your wife who has the unhelpful impulses and deep need to control. Who'da thunk it? 

I can sympathize with the need to be right. I've been there too. But why shouldn't you have to persuade her? Why is it important that she reacts like you?

My SO just set up and extended visit of MIL, and I am *dreading* it. For him, on the other hand, it is a good opportunity to heal a difficult relationship while he still can. And I have to respect that. Even though it will literally require me to grit my teeth for the entire period, and I surely did need to be "reminded" why it is a good idea.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> Thanks for that A_A. You really made me think about what I was trying to say.


You are still only seeing one half of the dynamic. In your characterizations there is always the "giver", in this example MEM, but also often yourself, and the "taker" (the wives).

You paint it as though the giver is always giving and the taker is always taking and the only reason this "works" is that both parties are content in their roles. But at the same time you are convinced that the giver has a raw deal.

This portrait doesn't at all acknowledge the "bad" side, where all the scars are. The "giver" is not the long-suffering saintly saint who struggles to give and give until it hurts. He (or she) is just as interested in manipulating circumstances in his favour as the "taker". 

And at some point, it would only be fair to actually try to look at things from the perspective of the "taker". I think you'll be surprised at just how much she (or he) gives.


----------



## always_alone

heartsbeating said:


> There is no glass!


The glass is exactly as full as it should be, given the context, circumstances and time frame.


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> You are still only seeing one half of the dynamic. In your characterizations there is always the "giver", in this example MEM, but also often yourself, and the "taker" (the wives).
> 
> You paint it as though the giver is always giving and the taker is always taking and the only reason this "works" is that both parties are content in their roles. But at the same time you are convinced that the giver has a raw deal.
> 
> This portrait doesn't at all acknowledge the "bad" side, where all the scars are. The "giver" is not the long-suffering saintly saint who struggles to give and give until it hurts. He (or she) is just as interested in manipulating circumstances in his favour as the "taker".
> 
> And at some point, it would only be fair to actually try to look at things from the perspective of the "taker". I think you'll be surprised at just how much she (or he) gives.


Gold.


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> Ah, so it isn't just your wife who has the unhelpful impulses and deep need to control. Who'da thunk it?
> 
> I can sympathize with the need to be right. I've been there too. But why shouldn't you have to persuade her? Why is it important that she reacts like you?
> 
> My SO just set up and extended visit of MIL, and I am *dreading* it. For him, on the other hand, it is a good opportunity to heal a difficult relationship while he still can. And I have to respect that. Even though it will literally require me to grit my teeth for the entire period, and I surely did need to be "reminded" why it is a good idea.


Why do you need to grit your teeth? Could this be an opportunity for you to talk openly and honestly with her, too?


----------



## always_alone

farsidejunky said:


> If she is in a lousy mood and, as Mem likes to describe it, starts to poke me, I struggle to maintain my mood through her poking.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


"Why are you poking me? Are you *trying* to start a fight?"

Or the ever simple but effective 10 deep breaths. "this is not mine"


----------



## farsidejunky

always_alone said:


> "Why are you poking me? Are you *trying* to start a fight?"
> 
> Or the ever simple but effective 10 deep breaths. "this is not mine"


"What can I do for you right now to help you?"

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> "What can I do for you right now to help you?"
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Could be perceived as patronizing. Just something to consider.


----------



## GettingIt_2

jld said:


> I think GI described this once. She said her husband took his moods from her.
> 
> @GettingIt, is that what you meant, this thing that far is talking about?


I've not been keeping up with this thread, so I'm not sure exactly what's being discussed. 

My husband doesn't like it when I get controlling and poke at him when I'm not getting the response from him I want. He tends to call me on it rather than ride it out. Is that what you mean? There was a time when I'd turn it around on him when he'd say "enough is enough" about my poking. I'd try to make it about him not being able to regulate his emotions instead of admitting that it was about my inability to just tell him what was bothering me. But I'd say that has largely dissipated as he's been consistent in persuading me to just sit him down and tell him what is on my mind rather than manipulating him with bad behavior ("poking," "**** testing," etc.)

But my husband and I are in a bit of a different situation than a lot of folks on TAM in that we pledged to work on emotional trust and deeper intimacy _together._ He doesn't want to have to "manage" me and my insecurities any more than I want to manage his. When I'm struggling with negative feelings towards him, I know I can talk to him straight up and he'll help me. 

And when I say "negative feelings towards him" I'm not talking about legitimate gripes. I'm talking about irritability and anxiety that overflow from stresses in my life that have nothing to do with him or our marriage, but that always seem to show up as a desire to control HIM in petty ways. I'm not proud of the fact that I do this, but at least I can admit it and ask for his help instead of just abusing him and expecting him to take it. 

I think this is a problem in a lot of marriages. It's easy to take our fears, our insecurities, our triggers, our stress out on the person closest to us. It's pretty common behavior. But few of us want to take a close look at that tendency, admit it, and ask the very person we are hurting to help us. 

Just as few are the partners who will lovingly and generously say, "Come sit in my arms and tell me all the ways you hate me so that you can feel better." My husband does it for me because he knows the consequences of me stuffing my negative emotions. But he also insists that I approach him with self awareness and and honesty. HE taught me that, and it's one of the greatest gifts he's ever given to me.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Could be perceived as patronizing. Just something to consider.


She loves it. 

Here is the thing, JLD. When she is in that moment, it is because she needs something but hasn't identified what she needs because she is so amped up she is not even in a "needs" mindset.

Since I started asking that exact question, she has begun to actually articulate her needs _before_ she begins to poke. Not always, but probably 7 out of 10 times.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## GettingIt_2

farsidejunky said:


> She loves it.
> 
> Here is the thing, JLD. When she is in that moment, it is because she needs something but hasn't identified what she needs because she is so amped up she is not even in a "needs" mindset.
> 
> Since I started asking that exact question, she has begun to actually articulate her needs _before_ she begins to poke. Not always, but probably 7 out of 10 times.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Farside, this is what I'm talking about--helping her learn to self reflect enough to be able to identify her true need, and then developing the trust to tell you and ask for your help. 

It's a process, but for me there was a tipping point that I finally reached where self-reflection happened first BEFORE the poking. 

It's fine for your wife to feel what ever emotion she feels for you, but asking you to take responsibility for that is where you hold the line. That is not to say you don't help her resolve the emotion, but you don't have to accept the blame.


----------



## Maricha75

always_alone said:


> *"Why are you poking me? Are you *trying* to start a fight?"*
> 
> Or the ever simple but effective 10 deep breaths. "this is not mine"


If my husband asked me this, it *WOULD* start a fight. Why? Because I would see it as HIM starting it, even if I HAD been pushing buttons.


farsidejunky said:


> "What can I do for you right now to help you?"
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


This would work. It is much more calming. It would show he *is* paying attention to me, that something is off, and wants to help.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> She loves it.
> 
> Here is the thing, JLD. When she is in that moment, it is because she needs something but hasn't identified what she needs because she is so amped up she is not even in a "needs" mindset.
> 
> Since I started asking that exact question, she has begun to actually articulate her needs _before_ she begins to poke. Not always, but probably 7 out of 10 times.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


It is great that she loves it. And it is great to share it with others, because they may find it helpful, too. 

But another wife might find it patronizing. Again, just something to consider.


----------



## GettingIt_2

I agree with Maricha. When my husband offers to help me with my negative emotions, I just melt and turn all the bad over to him while he holds me. 

When he challenges me, I just up the ante. I refuse to lose a fight. We WILL go down in flames.


----------



## always_alone

GettingIt said:


> I agree with Maricha. When my husband offers to help me with my negative emotions, I just melt and turn all the bad over to him while he holds me.
> 
> When he challenges me, I just up the ante. I refuse to lose a fight. We WILL go down in flames.


I am the opposite. When I am challenged, I pause to think. It gives me a chance to put my perspective forward, and to show why I have it. Ditto for him.

I used to need to be right. Now I just see the world as a complex set of stories, all with their grains of truths and all with their convenient lies.

Offers to help are sometimes appreciated, but depending on circumstances I may see them as very patronizing, as jld noted. 

Mostly, though, I'm not a poker. I make it as clear as I can when I am not happy and what with. Not always perfect, of course, but I lay it out. What I was describing was how *I* respond when I am poked. (which doesn't happen that often, thankfully)


----------



## jld

@GettingIt

I just remember your saying once that he "took his moods" from you. I did not understand what you meant by that. 

When I read what far said, it reminded me of that. I thought it might be the same thing.


----------



## GettingIt_2

jld said:


> @GettingIt
> 
> I just remember your saying once that he "took his moods" from you. I did not understand what you meant by that.
> 
> When I read what far said, it reminded me of that. I thought it might be the same thing.


I think, too, that my understanding of what I contribute towards my dynamic has changed in the past three years since my husband and I began working on our intimacy. 

Deeply attached couples of course are affected by one another's moods. (And my h and I have been together for more than 25 years, and were one another's first and only serious long term partner, so yeah, we're attached.) But that is different than expecting a partner to take responsibility for our moods whether or not that mood has anything to do with our partner. Still, that situation is also very common, very normal for attached couples. Recognizing it and understanding it, and admitting that it's happening with ourselves is where the trip-up seems to occur. It's much easier to address if you trust your partner to call you on it. It's a pretty deep type of trust, though. What you basically have to do is trust your partner to know you better than you know yourself, to understanding that sometimes the intensity of your own emotions clouds your judgment in the relationship. 

You have to feel pretty damn safe with someone in order to say "I won't listen to my emotions, I'll just trust that if I feel negatively about you that it's more likely my issue than yours." I realize that it's place that many people just won't go, particularly if they are with a partner who has not been trustworthy in the past.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> You are still only seeing one half of the dynamic. In your characterizations there is always the "giver", in this example MEM, but also often yourself, and the "taker" (the wives).
> 
> You paint it as though the giver is always giving and the taker is always taking and the only reason this "works" is that both parties are content in their roles. But at the same time you are convinced that the giver has a raw deal.
> 
> This portrait doesn't at all acknowledge the "bad" side, where all the scars are. The "giver" is not the long-suffering saintly saint who struggles to give and give until it hurts. He (or she) is just as interested in manipulating circumstances in his favour as the "taker".
> 
> And at some point, it would only be fair to actually try to look at things from the perspective of the "taker". I think you'll be surprised at just how much she (or he) gives.


My point was to look at that specific dynamic. 

However it has been my experience that people naturally fall into roles in relationships. That can be comfortable. But it isn't always good or skillful in the long run. 

And people who "take" usually do overestimate what they "give" and underestimate what they "take."

It's the same mental process I think that causes surprise when you get your credit card bill, or causes a HD person to overstate how long it's been since they had sex, or an LD person to understate it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

GI,

This is why TAM is a goldmine for folks actually paying attention.

The sequence below - was a big part of our conflict pattern - for a long time. 

And it's complicated - when your partner is overall very honest - but in this one area is totally dishonest. 

So - take a bow GI, because for a normal H, to come home to a wife who is intentionally poking at him, and then when challenged on it, doubles down and says HE has the issue, that is very draining. 

And there is a vast ocean between: 
1. being highly affected by your partners bad mood. 
And
2. That same partner - very intentionally trying to agitate you, and then claiming that are NOT doing that, when challenged.

M2 almost never does this stuff anymore. That's largely a combo thing. Tone of the marriage is overall way more collaborative. And she doesn't want to waste a day or two in a 180 type mode. 




GettingIt said:


> I've not been keeping up with this thread, so I'm not sure exactly what's being discussed.
> 
> My husband doesn't like it when I get controlling and poke at him when I'm not getting the response from him I want. He tends to call me on it rather than ride it out. Is that what you mean? There was a time when I'd turn it around on him when he'd say "enough is enough" about my poking. I'd try to make it about him not being able to regulate his emotions instead of admitting that it was about my inability to just tell him what was bothering me. But I'd say that has largely dissipated as he's been consistent in persuading me to just sit him down and tell him what is on my mind rather than manipulating him with bad behavior ("poking," "**** testing," etc.)
> 
> But my husband and I are in a bit of a different situation than a lot of folks on TAM in that we pledged to work on emotional trust and deeper intimacy _together._ He doesn't want to have to "manage" me and my insecurities any more than I want to manage his. When I'm struggling with negative feelings towards him, I know I can talk to him straight up and he'll help me.
> 
> And when I say "negative feelings towards him" I'm not talking about legitimate gripes. I'm talking about irritability and anxiety that overflow from stresses in my life that have nothing to do with him or our marriage, but that always seem to show up as a desire to control HIM in petty ways. I'm not proud of the fact that I do this, but at least I can admit it and ask for his help instead of just abusing him and expecting him to take it.
> 
> I think this is a problem in a lot of marriages. It's easy to take our fears, our insecurities, our triggers, our stress out on the person closest to us. It's pretty common behavior. But few of us want to take a close look at that tendency, admit it, and ask the very person we are hurting to help us.
> 
> Just as few are the partners who will lovingly and generously say, "Come sit in my arms and tell me all the ways you hate me so that you can feel better." My husband does it for me because he knows the consequences of me stuffing my negative emotions. But he also insists that I approach him with self awareness and and honesty. HE taught me that, and it's one of the greatest gifts he's ever given to me.


----------



## MEM2020

Very good AA. 





always_alone said:


> Ah, so it isn't just your wife who has the unhelpful impulses and deep need to control. Who'da thunk it?
> 
> I can sympathize with the need to be right. I've been there too. But why shouldn't you have to persuade her? Why is it important that she reacts like you?
> 
> My SO just set up and extended visit of MIL, and I am *dreading* it. For him, on the other hand, it is a good opportunity to heal a difficult relationship while he still can. And I have to respect that. Even though it will literally require me to grit my teeth for the entire period, and I surely did need to be "reminded" why it is a good idea.


----------



## GettingIt_2

MEM11363 said:


> GI,
> 
> This is why TAM is a goldmine for folks actually paying attention.
> 
> The sequence below - was a big part of our conflict pattern - for a long time.
> 
> And it's complicated - when your partner is overall very honest - but in this one area is totally dishonest.
> 
> So - take a bow GI, because for a normal H, to come home to a wife who is intentionally poking at him, and then when challenged on it, doubles down and says HE has the issue, that is very draining.
> 
> And there is a vast ocean between:
> 1. being highly affected by your partners bad mood.
> And
> 2. That same partner - very intentionally trying to agitate you, and then claiming that are NOT doing that, when challenged.
> 
> M2 almost never does this stuff anymore. That's largely a combo thing. Tone of the marriage is overall way more collaborative. And she doesn't want to waste a day or two in a 180 type mode.


I think being collaborative is key. My husband and I would never have succeeded if we didn't step back and take a clinical and dispassionate look at what was going on in our dynamic for the ten years we really struggled. 

Truly, we loved one another and just wanted to enjoy our freaking marriage, you know? He was willing to forgive me A LOT of truly bad habits if only I'd recognize them as such and stop blaming them on him. 

And I was willing to do that because he, in turn, worked on himself just as hard as he was asking me to work on myself. We both have our strengths and weaknesses. One of us does not make or break this marriage on any give day-- because we are hard on ourselves before we are hard on one another. Again: takes huge trust to do this in collaboration with a partner with whom you have an antagonistic past.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> And people who "take" usually do overestimate what they "give" and underestimate what they "take."
> 
> It's the same mental process I think that causes surprise when you get your credit card bill, or causes a HD person to overstate how long it's been since they had sex, or an LD person to understate it.


And people who "give" also totally overestimate how much they give.

If you ask people about themselves, the tendency is to inflate. That is why we are all above average, all "givers", all hard done by, and so on.

*That's* why I keep telling you that you only see one half of the dynamic. You reserve all the excuses for your side, whichever side that is.


----------



## always_alone

jld said:


> Why do you need to grit your teeth? Could this be an opportunity for you to talk openly and honestly with her, too?


No. What makes her particularly difficult to deal with is that she is suffering from a form of dementia that she is in complete denial about and wants to rugsweep away as she has all other problems So it becomes this rather grueling combination of her getting fixated on certain ideas that she will not let go, and basically harps and harps on ntil everyone else conforms to whatever she wants, all the while asserting that she is alright jack, and doesn't need any help and nothing is wrong.

Plus the baggage between her and my SO is ancient history and so between them. Other than a sense of protectiveness for my SO, I have no stake in it. I get front row seats, but will stay out of the ring.

It'll all work itself out, no doubt --it's just that I'm not very well equipped to deal with this sort of thing, and would rather not have to. But you gotta do what you gotta do.


----------



## MEM2020

Always,

You raise a good point. Ultimately it is not for me to say - how well I treat you. It simply is not my call. I do - what I do - but in the final analysis my partner feels how they feel about me, and how I treat them. 

And this is why I often ask the same three questions to new posters. Does your partner crave:
- your company
- your non sexual touch
- sex

Don't get me wrong, I get the importance of the 'mechanics of life'. And how we can use action - to express that someone is important to us. And vice versa. Sure acts of service matter and generosity (gifts) matter also. But those are just a mechanism for expressing that 'you are important to me'.

Theres a guy on TAM who is certain he's the giver. Get the sense he feels like his marriage, is around 95% give and 5% receive. 

This is the same guy who intentionally humiliated his wife in front of their children, and seemed to not perceive that as a misstep. 

While it isn't possible to create a 'service level agreement' for a marriage, it is fairly easy to gauge how 'into you' your partner is....




always_alone said:


> And people who "give" also totally overestimate how much they give.
> 
> If you ask people about themselves, the tendency is to inflate. That is why we are all above average, all "givers", all hard done by, and so on.
> 
> *That's* why I keep telling you that you only see one half of the dynamic. You reserve all the excuses for your side, whichever side that is.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> And people who "give" also totally overestimate how much they give.
> 
> If you ask people about themselves, the tendency is to inflate. That is why we are all above average, all "givers", all hard done by, and so on.
> 
> *That's* why I keep telling you that you only see one half of the dynamic. You reserve all the excuses for your side, whichever side that is.


Mm... Actually I think it can be the opposite. 

Cognitive bias is what it is. A giver can be stuck in 'give' mode and feel good about it and totally not realize how much they give because they're checking those validation checkboxes. 

I've seen it quite a bit. The housewife who cooks and cleans and gives bjs and the husband who sits back and takes it. Or the guy that does the guy version of that while his wife just takes it. 

I mean, that was basically me. For about a year and a half I gave with no limit and got nothing back. And then tried to give even more to fix it. And that didn't work at all. 

All I ended up was exhausted and wondering how it came to that, you know?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Always,
My friends father, developed dementia. And my friend, handled his dad brilliantly. He 'humored him'. Actually he coined a phrase for it. Called it: 'jollying him along'. 

It is utterly toxic to apply standard (truth elemental) rules of engagement in situations where a third party is engaged in determined self deception. That self deception is simply their coping mechanism. 

I'll give you a real world example. M2 has three older sisters. She is super close to the sibling who was born third. That sister married a guy who was (apparently) strikingly similar to me. He divorced her and she remarried. 

She and M2 while close, are ALSO competitive. 

Anyway, her sister does some amount of dysfunctional stuff towards me. But it isn't about me. At all. So I just ignore it. In the past I responded to it, but the ugly truth is, there isn't anything to respond to. She pretends on the surface that everything is fine, while her actions say quite the opposite. 

And attempting to be direct is counterproductive. 




always_alone said:


> No. What makes her particularly difficult to deal with is that she is suffering from a form of dementia that she is in complete denial about and wants to rugsweep away as she has all other problems So it becomes this rather grueling combination of her getting fixated on certain ideas that she will not let go, and basically harps and harps on ntil everyone else conforms to whatever she wants, all the while asserting that she is alright jack, and doesn't need any help and nothing is wrong.
> 
> Plus the baggage between her and my SO is ancient history and so between them. Other than a sense of protectiveness for my SO, I have no stake in it. I get front row seats, but will stay out of the ring.
> 
> It'll all work itself out, no doubt --it's just that I'm not very well equipped to deal with this sort of thing, and would rather not have to. But you gotta do what you gotta do.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> Mm... Actually I think it can be the opposite.


I hear ya, marduk, and yes, I think it can be that a "giver" sees giving as a solution to a problem, and exhausts themselves in the process.

But there are all sorts of covert contracts and attempts to control in that approach as well. They may start out doing it just to make the other person happy, or because it's the "right" thing to do, but once the expectations for return behavior or appreciation kick in, so does the other stuff.


----------



## Blondilocks

always_alone, there is always something at work that needs to be finished up. Work some long days and go in on the weekends if you can. It saved my sanity a number of times with in-laws. Good luck.


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> I hear ya, marduk, and yes, I think it can be that a "giver" sees giving as a solution to a problem, and exhausts themselves in the process.
> 
> But there are all sorts of covert contracts and attempts to control in that approach as well. They may start out doing it just to make the other person happy, or because it's the "right" thing to do, but once the expectations for return behavior or appreciation kick in, so does the other stuff.


Thing is, I think if someone is really a giver, they get pleasure from the giving. They are not counting and wanting to be paid back. Just being able to give was the gift to them.

I think what you are describing is more a type of taker.


----------



## heartsbeating

always_alone said:


> The glass is exactly as full as it should be, given the context, circumstances and time frame.


The dude abides!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Always,
> 
> You raise a good point. Ultimately it is not for me to say - how well I treat you. It simply is not my call. I do - what I do - but in the final analysis my partner feels how they feel about me, and how I treat them.


Ideally, at least IMHO, no one is counting. Both partners are happy with each other and the give and take is balanced. Maybe skewed in one way on some issues, and the other on other issues, but overall balanced.

Counting begins when one person isn't happy. They feel like they are doing more, giving more, being more, and getting nothing in return. Are they right to think this? They are surely right about something: their needs aren't being met.

That's where it gets complicated. As you say, you can't tell someone that their needs *are* being met. Or should be (because of all I do for you!!!) That's not for you (or anyone else) to decide. 

But responding to counting with more accounting (oh yeah, but look at what *I* do for you!!) isn't all that helpful or productive either. Indeed it completely misses the actual point.

And once you get to the point where you are trying to define all terms in an SLA, the game is pretty much over. That's more about extracting obligations than loving or relating.


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,
In the give/take dynamic - you mention what I will call the self serving distortion lens. Classic example is the overstatement or understatement of sex. 

M2 has never done that. I'd remember because I would really dislike being on the receiving end of that. 

She does this - thing - that is really quite delightful. She caricatures our frequency in a rather extreme manner - but in the opposite direction. So if we get to almost a week, she'll say: darling I know it's been months, and that its my fault, do you think you can hold out one more day?

And I just laugh. 

What she's doing there is acknowledging the gap, and opening the door for feedback in a light hearted manner. 

Sometimes I play along - but take the contrarian position. Like I might say: babe, we did it this morning, I can't possibly go again old as I am. I'm sorry it wasn't more memorable to you. 

Sometimes she will ask for a day count. Dead straight - has it been a week or has it been 5 days? This is a combo thing. It's a reality check and a temperature check. 





marduk said:


> My point was to look at that specific dynamic.
> 
> However it has been my experience that people naturally fall into roles in relationships. That can be comfortable. But it isn't always good or skillful in the long run.
> 
> And people who "take" usually do overestimate what they "give" and underestimate what they "take."
> 
> It's the same mental process I think that causes surprise when you get your credit card bill, or causes a HD person to overstate how long it's been since they had sex, or an LD person to understate it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> Theres a guy on TAM who is certain he's the giver. Get the sense he feels like his marriage, is around 95% give and 5% receive.
> 
> This is the same guy who intentionally humiliated his wife in front of their children, and seemed to not perceive that as a misstep.


That's amoeba reasoning 101...

The guy knew what he's doing. The fact that his "partner" continued to accept the offerings despite being "humiliated" told him all he needed to know about motives and outcomes.


----------



## always_alone

john117 said:


> That's amoeba reasoning 101...
> 
> The guy knew what he's doing. The fact that his "partner" continued to accept the offerings despite being "humiliated" told him all he needed to know about motives and outcomes.


What surprises me is that the guy doesn't seem to realize that motives are fluid and depend a whole lot on treatment. 

Random example: Girl meets boy and is interested. Boy is nice to her, gives her compliments, they get along. They start going out. Boy then starts telling her how to dress, how to do her hair. She complies. He then starts criticizing the way she does things, the books she reads, the tv shows she likes, the way she loads the dishwasher. She starts yelling at him for being controlling. He calls her names, she tells him to eff off.

Why do you suppose her motives changed from wanting to please him to lashing out?


----------



## GettingIt_2

always_alone said:


> What surprises me is that the guy doesn't seem to realize that motives are fluid and depend a whole lot on treatment.
> 
> Random example: Girl meets boy and is interested. Boy is nice to her, gives her compliments, they get along. They start going out. *Boy then starts telling her how to dress, how to do her hair. She complies.* He then starts criticizing the way she does things, the books she reads, the tv shows she likes, the way she loads the dishwasher. She starts yelling at him for being controlling. He calls her names, she tells him to eff off.
> 
> Why do you suppose her motives changed from wanting to please him to lashing out?


I think getting to the root of the bolded is key. 

All behavior has a motivation. What is Boy's in this example? The assumptions that Girl makes about his motivations are not necessarily accurate, and her yelling about him being controlling is just yet another step in the downhill spiral. 

If people would just freaking be vulnerable and *TALK* to their partners, then the cycle of reactive behaviors might get nipped in the bud a lot easier. 

But we all tend to protect ourselves first (including assuming the worst when our partners behave in a way we don't like), and that often manifests as some sh*tty behavior for sure. 

Here is a thought: when a partner acts in a way you don't like, instead of being reactive, sit them down and ask them what is going on. If they tell you, and you don't like the answer, you have some choices to make. If they tell you, and you find that their behavior was poor but that you can productively work with addressing their motivation, that is perhaps a different story. Ask your partner to work with you on increasing trust in communication. 

Sounds pretty idealistic, I know, and not every encounter can realistically be handled this way. But being aware that behavior isn't always a reflection of motivation is a good skill to work on with someone you love and want to be with forever.


----------



## john117

You're confusing volatile state (new relationship) vs steady state (20+ year).

Huge difference.

Think of the relative weights of actions. Last month I helped my wife land several job offers, and I suspect my two month's worth of cramming a year of QDA in her head last fall had something to do with it too. If you think this changed things at all, you need to reconsider.

The prevailing groupthink in TAM is that people change behavior if the right trivial or subtle action is taken... Lucky be the ones whose partners are thusly swayed


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> In the give/take dynamic - you mention what I will call the self serving distortion lens. Classic example is the overstatement or understatement of sex.
> 
> M2 has never done that. I'd remember because I would really dislike being on the receiving end of that.
> 
> She does this - thing - that is really quite delightful. She caricatures our frequency in a rather extreme manner - but in the opposite direction. So if we get to almost a week, she'll say: darling I know it's been months, and that its my fault, do you think you can hold out one more day?
> 
> And I just laugh.
> 
> What she's doing there is acknowledging the gap, and opening the door for feedback in a light hearted manner.
> 
> Sometimes I play along - but take the contrarian position. Like I might say: babe, we did it this morning, I can't possibly go again old as I am. I'm sorry it wasn't more memorable to you.
> 
> Sometimes she will ask for a day count. Dead straight - has it been a week or has it been 5 days? This is a combo thing. It's a reality check and a temperature check.


The only time my wife says stuff like that is when she's horny, or she's worried I'm losing interest in her for some reason. Or some combination of the two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

So simple, right? Yet spot on.

Until we experience our triggers. Unless we can own those, this is just out of reach.



GettingIt said:


> I think getting to the root of the bolded is key.
> 
> All behavior has a motivation. What is Boy's in this example? The assumptions that Girl makes about his motivations are not necessarily accurate, and her yelling about him being controlling is just yet another step in the downhill spiral.
> 
> If people would just freaking be vulnerable and *TALK* to their partners, then the cycle of reactive behaviors might get nipped in the bud a lot easier.
> 
> But we all tend to protect ourselves first (including assuming the worst when our partners behave in a way we don't like), and that often manifests as some sh*tty behavior for sure.
> 
> Here is a thought: when a partner acts in a way you don't like, instead of being reactive, sit them down and ask them what is going on. If they tell you, and you don't like the answer, you have some choices to make. If they tell you, and you find that their behavior was poor but that you can productively work with addressing their motivation, that is perhaps a different story. Ask your partner to work with you on increasing trust in communication.
> 
> Sounds pretty idealistic, I know, and not every encounter can realistically be handled this way. But being aware that behavior isn't always a reflection of motivation is a good skill to work on with someone you love and want to be with forever.


----------



## MEM2020

GI,

What odd timing for your post GI. 

M2 knows I'm soon going back to work. Out of the blue last night she does a big setup for a question.

The big setup is: I'm gonna ask a question, but before I do I want you to swear on your mothers grave and our kids lives you will tell me the un spun truth. 

I said: fire away

And she asked me: Did you stop working because we stopped having (intercourse) sex? 

And I said: No babe, that is a medical condition. And I have never felt a moment of resentment toward you over it. 

And then I asked, do you want to know why I stopped working?
(Note: I asked that question because M2 is not as good a listener as she could be. Because I have answered this very question in the past)

I reminded her of the day - it was a Sunday - I had to fly to Charlotte NC. I had bought an upgrade for $70. 

And M2 without hesitation asked me: can you expense that? 

Last night I looked at her and said - totally calm: that was kind of the final straw, after a long, increasingly high conflict set of straws. 

Now I said that - without the slightest element of emotion in my voice. Like I was recalling some physics formula. 

And the most fascinating thing happened. I saw a series of strong emotions on M2's face. Recognition, remorse and determination. 

And she said: the person who said those things, was a selfish bltch, she is gone. I swear to you, she is gone. 

And I just said: I know babe, why I'm happily looking forward to going back to work. 

But to GI's point, M2 asked a direct question on motive, related to something important. We had a very low affect, high content exchange. And then we went to sleep. Happy that we understood and were understood by each other.




GettingIt said:


> I think getting to the root of the bolded is key.
> 
> All behavior has a motivation. What is Boy's in this example? The assumptions that Girl makes about his motivations are not necessarily accurate, and her yelling about him being controlling is just yet another step in the downhill spiral.
> 
> If people would just freaking be vulnerable and *TALK* to their partners, then the cycle of reactive behaviors might get nipped in the bud a lot easier.
> 
> But we all tend to protect ourselves first (including assuming the worst when our partners behave in a way we don't like), and that often manifests as some sh*tty behavior for sure.
> 
> Here is a thought: when a partner acts in a way you don't like, instead of being reactive, sit them down and ask them what is going on. If they tell you, and you don't like the answer, you have some choices to make. If they tell you, and you find that their behavior was poor but that you can productively work with addressing their motivation, that is perhaps a different story. Ask your partner to work with you on increasing trust in communication.
> 
> Sounds pretty idealistic, I know, and not every encounter can realistically be handled this way. But being aware that behavior isn't always a reflection of motivation is a good skill to work on with someone you love and want to be with forever.


----------



## GettingIt_2

MEM11363 said:


> And then we went to sleep. Happy that we understood and were understood by each other.


THIS is the ultimate payout of the sort of work that I (and you, and some others) encourage for individuals and for couples. 

It's a feeling of peace and wholeness like nothing I've ever experienced. Many, many people go through their lives never experiencing it with their partners--not because they don't want to, but because they don't believe it's possible. Some people don't want it, or don't think it's worth the work. 

I don't for one minute hold out that I'm happy with my husband every minute of every day--that's not what deep two-way intimacy is about. It's about knowing and being known, and the incredible security brought about by that exchange.

And it's not a state that you reach so much as one that you strive for with intention. Like yoga, I see it as a practice. Some days my husband and I do better at it than others, but we don't measure our success by our worst days.


----------



## farsidejunky

GI:

This is especially true when this is what you are craving with your partner, yet you go years without it due to being combative with each other.

And then it happens for the first time (or the first time in a long time). And you worry, because you don't want it to just happen once. Fear steps in; fear of reverting back to old habits; fear as to whether it can be sustained.

Then when it finally becomes habit, it feels harmonious, like very little else in the world matters.



GettingIt said:


> THIS is the ultimate payout of the sort of work that I (and you, and some others) encourage for individuals and for couples.
> 
> It's a feeling of peace and wholeness like nothing I've ever experienced. Many, many people go through their lives never experiencing it with their partners--not because they don't want to, but because they don't believe it's possible. Some people don't want it, or don't think it's worth the work.
> 
> I don't for one minute hold out that I'm happy with my husband every minute of every day--that's not what deep two-way intimacy is about. It's about knowing and being known, and the incredible security brought about by that exchange.
> 
> And it's not a state that you reach so much as one that you strive for with intention. Like yoga, I see it as a practice. Some days my husband and I do better at it than others, but we don't measure our success by our worst days.


----------



## GettingIt_2

farsidejunky said:


> GI:
> 
> This is especially true when this is what you are craving with your partner, yet you go years without it due to being combative with each other.
> 
> And then it happens for the first time (or the first time in a long time). And you worry, because you don't want it to just happen once. Fear steps in; fear of reverting back to old habits; fear as to whether it can be sustained.
> 
> Then when it finally becomes habit, it feels harmonious, like very little else in the world matters.


Farside, I agree with this wholeheartedly. I think you have to commit to the process and not to seeing results at first. That can be frustrating and hard for individuals who are already at the end of their rope and have very little grace to extend to their partner. 

There are so many setbacks and failures along the way, so taking the "long view" and viewing it as a "practice" are ways that one can ride out the inevitable times of struggle. You have to be doing it for yourself, because at times along the way you will trigger and hate your partner so bad that you don't care what happens to your marriage. 

When you are trying to build a new marriage on the ruins of an old one, things are going to be tough. There always will be ghosts. But as you say, eventually new habits replace the old, and the ghosts look a lot less scary when they come drifting into view.


----------



## always_alone

john117 said:


> You're confusing volatile state (new relationship) vs steady state (20+ year).
> 
> Huge difference.
> 
> Think of the relative weights of actions. Last month I helped my wife land several job offers, and I suspect my two month's worth of cramming a year of QDA in her head last fall had something to do with it too. If you think this changed things at all, you need to reconsider.
> 
> The prevailing groupthink in TAM is that people change behavior if the right trivial or subtle action is taken... Lucky be the ones whose partners are thusly swayed


I am not confusing anything, just using an example to illustrate my point.

And no one here thinks that one trivial action will make all the difference. Two months of training may be enough to land J2 some jobs, but it is not even a drop in all that water under the bridge of your relationship.

Let me try another example to see if this resonates with you:

Wife and husband married for 23 years. They go out with a bunch of friends to a party and the conversation turns to the ribald. Wife insults husband's penis size publicly.

Tell me, how might this affect his motives in the ensuing conversation?


----------



## always_alone

GettingIt said:


> But being aware that behavior isn't always a reflection of motivation is a good skill to work on with someone you love and want to be with forever.


I agree with everything you said, right up to this point.

Behaviour is always a reflection of motivation. Just not necessarily the one we *think* it is.

Upshot is that I agree that we need to be open to being wrong, and should try to give our partners the benefit of the doubt. We should not assume their motivations are bad But there is a limit to that, there has to be.

I used to date this guy who would put me down sometimes. And the reality was that his stated motive was not his real motive. At all. Really, he was just looking down on me and using me for what he could get.


----------



## always_alone

GettingIt said:


> I don't for one minute hold out that I'm happy with my husband every minute of every day--that's not what deep two-way intimacy is about. It's about knowing and being known, and the incredible security brought about by that exchange.
> 
> And it's not a state that you reach so much as one that you strive for with intention. Like yoga, I see it as a practice. Some days my husband and I do better at it than others, but we don't measure our success by our worst days.


Can I ask you a question? What does a "worst day" vs a "best day" look like to you?

You mentioned triggering and hating in another post, but then this deep harmony in another. And, well, I guess I'm just wondering what that means to you in more concrete terms.


----------



## MEM2020

GI,

We had a near identical conversation about me going/stopping going to church - maybe 6-12 months ago. 

M2: did you stop going to church because we can't have sex?
Me: No. Stopped going because you were blatantly resentful I hadn't converted/wasn't going to convert. 
M2: I won't do that anymore.
Me: Good, glad to resume going.

--------
In a nutshell, I don't really need gratitude. I like it, but don't require it. 

But if you kick me when you're getting my 'best effort', because it doesn't meet YOUR expectations for ME, eventually, after a lot of warnings, I stop making any effort at all. 

M2 doesn't have to FEEL happy, about how I spend money, or that I don't convert. She just can't behave in an ugly way if she wants my continued support in those areas. 

On the flip side of the coin, trying to lead by example I do express gratitude. Last night, after commenting that I felt no resentment about her physical issues, I added: I'm very grateful for how you've handled that situation. You have consistently shown a kind and generous spirit. 

-------
Easy to say, because it's true. And aligned with how I act in the day to day. 

And fwiw, working, churching, these were very specific issues dealt with in isolation from everything else. My general 'affect' towards M2 in the day to day was positive. 





GettingIt said:


> THIS is the ultimate payout of the sort of work that I (and you, and some others) encourage for individuals and for couples.
> 
> It's a feeling of peace and wholeness like nothing I've ever experienced. Many, many people go through their lives never experiencing it with their partners--not because they don't want to, but because they don't believe it's possible. Some people don't want it, or don't think it's worth the work.
> 
> I don't for one minute hold out that I'm happy with my husband every minute of every day--that's not what deep two-way intimacy is about. It's about knowing and being known, and the incredible security brought about by that exchange.
> 
> And it's not a state that you reach so much as one that you strive for with intention. Like yoga, I see it as a practice. Some days my husband and I do better at it than others, but we don't measure our success by our worst days.


----------



## MEM2020

If I were John's wife this is what I'd likely think.

I want to retire. John demands I keep working. He is only helping me because it maximizes the outcome HE wants. He's doing it FOR himself, not for me. 

Not saying that is fair. Or reasonable. Or whatever. Just saying that she likely sees it that way. 





always_alone said:


> I am not confusing anything, just using an example to illustrate my point.
> 
> And no one here thinks that one trivial action will make all the difference. Two months of training may be enough to land J2 some jobs, but it is not even a drop in all that water under the bridge of your relationship.
> 
> Let me try another example to see if this resonates with you:
> 
> Wife and husband married for 23 years. They go out with a bunch of friends to a party and the conversation turns to the ribald. Wife insults husband's penis size publicly.
> 
> Tell me, how might this affect his motives in the ensuing conversation?


----------



## WorkingWife

lifeistooshort said:


> Empathy really does go a long way, and I tend to think that if you doing it upsets her then her motivator for doing it to you isn't innocent. *It's a way of keeping the emotional upper hand in the relationship* and of trying to convey to you that she has options so you'd better keep that in mind.


That is exactly what I think. My ex used to do this. He pretended like he was joking but I had the distinct feeling he was deliberately doing it to make me feel insecure and keep me off balance.

I remember one time some jazzercise ladies came on the TV and he started grunting and making groin thrusts at the TV set. Seriously? What bothered me was not that he supposedly found some good looking women in tights attractive. What bothered me was that he was obviously trying to make me feel bad. (It turned out he was a serial cheater too but I was stupidly oblivious at the time.)

My current husband and I both will observe women who are very attractive but it's more just casual conversation - some women are remarkably beautiful. It's never delivered in a way that is meant to convey "I'm disappointed/dissatisfied with you." And when we're out together with friends he often whispers to me "you're the best looking one here." <3

Ironically, he does get upset when I mention a male actor is hot, so I just don't mention it. If it upset me when he said women were hot and I told him that I'm confident he would stop mentioning it.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> If I were John's wife this is what I'd likely think.
> 
> I want to retire. John demands I keep working. He is only helping me because it maximizes the outcome HE wants. He's doing it FOR himself, not for me.
> 
> Not saying that is fair. Or reasonable. Or whatever. Just saying that she likely sees it that way.


I just hope that he is much less condescending when he is helping her than when he is educating us "groupthink TAMers"


----------



## john117

always_alone said:


> I am not confusing anything, just using an example to illustrate my point.
> 
> And no one here thinks that one trivial action will make all the difference. Two months of training may be enough to land J2 some jobs, but it is not even a drop in all that water under the bridge of your relationship.
> 
> Let me try another example to see if this resonates with you:
> 
> Wife and husband married for 23 years. They go out with a bunch of friends to a party and the conversation turns to the ribald. Wife insults husband's penis size publicly.
> 
> Tell me, how might this affect his motives in the ensuing conversation?


You're correct, wasting two months of graduate level QDA training earns few brownie points in an already DOA marriage. But it presents a view of the other person that may not have been clearly visible before. Don't forget how opinions are processed. It's all the little things that matter - or don't.

In the party example, I would question the motive and context before making any harsh decisions. It's one of those Kitty Dukakis moments. If it's people we know well and it was delivered after a few rounds of wine, vs a cold calculated remark vs girl talk. Motive is king. 

People do what they do for a reason.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> If I were John's wife this is what I'd likely think.
> 
> I want to retire. John demands I keep working. He is only helping me because it maximizes the outcome HE wants. He's doing it FOR himself, not for me.
> 
> Not saying that is fair. Or reasonable. Or whatever. Just saying that she likely sees it that way.


Luckily for you that's not the case. Here's motives in action...

MY motive for helping to get Dr. J2 in a lower stress job is not for my immediate financial gratification. We already make more than enough money to cover tuition bills. 

My motives are to (a) give her a year of relative peace and see if she responds at all (don't expect her to) and (b) for her to not have to deal with job change and marital status change at the same time in a year. In other words, maximize my separation outcome...

As you can see the actions or reason for human behavior are usually clear. It's the weights behind those actions that are important. 

To get back to the original thread subject... If my loving spouse told me they're attracted or not to other people I would try to read thru the lines to get the meaning of what they mean and why they said it.


----------



## john117

always_alone said:


> I just hope that he is much less condescending when he is helping her than when he is educating us "groupthink TAMers"


Actually not. It was a rather stressful two months


----------



## GettingIt_2

always_alone said:


> I agree with everything you said, right up to this point.
> 
> Behaviour is always a reflection of motivation. Just not necessarily the one we *think* it is.


That was poor writing on my part--yes, all behavior derives from motivation. What I should have said is not all bad behavior is *necessarily* from nefarious motivation. That doesn't excuse the dishonesty inherent in feeling one way but acting another. However, sometimes we can better forgive bad behavior when we can sympathize or empathize with the *true* motivation. 



always_alone said:


> Upshot is that I agree that we need to be open to being wrong, and should try to give our partners the benefit of the doubt. We should not assume their motivations are bad But there is a limit to that, there has to be.


Agree. And when we reach our limit, we should communicate it and make our actions match our words. 



always_alone said:


> I used to date this guy who would put me down sometimes. And the reality was that his stated motive was not his real motive. At all. Really, he was just looking down on me and using me for what he could get.


How many times did he put you down before you chose to communicate your limit and match your behavior to your words? This is where healthy boundary setting comes into play. 




always_alone said:


> Can I ask you a question? What does a "worst day" vs a "best day" look like to you?
> 
> You mentioned triggering and hating in another post, but then this deep harmony in another. And, well, I guess I'm just wondering what that means to you in more concrete terms.


For me, a bad day is when I'm feeling irritation that I fear will morph into anxiety, or anxiety that I fear will morph into a panic attack. I have a history of not coping with negative emotions well--they all got expressed as anger. So any negative emotion--even when justified--tends to make me very uncomfortable because I don't trust myself to handle it well.

A good day for me is when I don't feel irritation, but merely say what is on my mind without the *need* for the outcome to look a certain way. I simply trust that my husband will hear me and do his utmost to give me what I need, and trust that if he doesn't, it's because he cannot, not because he's punishing me or being self serving. 

On my worst days, I allow little negative feelings to fester until they've become panic, at which point I'm no longer able to get down from the panic without my husband's help--meaning he has to do exactly what I want him to do even if I'm acting horribly. I *have* to have control.


----------



## always_alone

john117 said:


> Motive is king.
> 
> People do what they do for a reason.


Indeed. And how will you discern said motive?

If the answer is "humiliate my wife in front of people to see if I can manipulate her into the reaction I want to see", well, let's just say that it doesn't surprise me that she doesn't display much interest in your well-being either.


----------



## always_alone

GettingIt said:


> How many times did he put you down before you chose to communicate your limit and match your behavior to your words? This is where healthy boundary setting comes into play.


I have a very low tolerance for being put down, and so my limits are reached very quickly. Was my boundary setting healthy? Probably not. My behaviour matches my words, but essentially I go from 0 - 60 in a couple of seconds. 

In the end of all, though, boundary setting mattered not a whit in that relationship. His truth was that he was superior and I was a means. Once I realized that (took some time to figure it out), it was over.




GettingIt said:


> A good day for me is when I don't feel irritation, but merely say what is on my mind without the *need* for the outcome to look a certain way. I simply trust that my husband will hear me and do his utmost to give me what I need, and trust that if he doesn't, it's because he cannot, not because he's punishing me or being self serving.
> 
> On my worst days, I allow little negative feelings to fester until they've become panic, at which point I'm no longer able to get down from the panic without my husband's help--meaning he has to do exactly what I want him to do even if I'm acting horribly. I *have* to have control.


Thanks for sharing. I find it very interesting how you framed everything in terms of your own feelings and contributions. Does it ever happen that it is your husband who is the one acting horribly? Where he is the one who has to have control, or needs you to do or be something before he can settle down? If so, how do you navigate that?


----------



## always_alone

john117 said:


> Actually not. It was a rather stressful two months


As I feared. Unfortunately, "helping" someone with a patronizing and dismissive attitude only exacerbates problems. Never resolves them.

Emotional problems, that is. As apparently she did acquire sufficient background knowledge to increase her marketability in the workplace.


----------



## john117

always_alone said:


> Indeed. And how will you discern said motive?
> 
> If the answer is "humiliate my wife in front of people to see if I can manipulate her into the reaction I want to see", well, let's just say that it doesn't surprise me that she doesn't display much interest in your well-being either.


Elementary, my dear AA.

Discerning motives is a continuous process that takes into consideration a whole bunch of circumstances over time. 

If you try to discern motive based on an instantaneous observation you're going to be wrong. You form a list of alternatives and work from there.

Insults assume the other person considers your view. Not the case here


----------



## john117

always_alone said:


> As I feared. Unfortunately, "helping" someone with a patronizing and dismissive attitude only exacerbates problems. Never resolves them.
> 
> Emotional problems, that is. As apparently she did acquire sufficient background knowledge to increase her marketability in the workplace.


Quick to conclusions, as always (pun intended).

Perhaps you have a better way to teach a year of graduate level material in study design, data collection, classification or coding, analysis, and interpretation (the most difficult part) in two months worth of evenings and weekends while making it as pleasant as watching Teletubbies . All while trying to undo learned behaviors from decades of dealing with quantitative data 

Think of basic training in the army. You have six weeks to train your recruits. Are you going to nice them into clearing the obstacle course in under three minutes?


----------



## GettingIt_2

always_alone said:


> In the end of all, though, boundary setting mattered not a whit in that relationship. His truth was that he was superior and I was a means. Once I realized that (took some time to figure it out), it was over.


Why did it take some time to figure it out? What did you do the first time you felt that he put you down? Or did the pattern establish itself before you called him on it?




always_alone said:


> Thanks for sharing. I find it very interesting how you framed everything in terms of your own feelings and contributions. Does it ever happen that it is your husband who is the one acting horribly? Where he is the one who has to have control, or needs you to do or be something before he can settle down? If so, how do you navigate that?


Sure he has his bad days (usually related to work stress) but he is more introverted and less inclined to expect me to help him feel better. Normally he wants to be left alone when he's struggling. There was a time when that felt very threatening to me, and it would cause me to seek him out and try to force him to deal with me and the kids and not "withdraw" from us. 

The rare times when he does "act horribly" I try to be extra supportive and not be reactive. I'm not gonna lie--sometimes it's all I can do not to trigger when I see behavior that I viewed as threatening for years and years. He is sensitive to that, and tries to give me a "heads up" if he's having a bad day. 

One of the most frustrating parts of our reconciliation was trying to stop cycles that begin when one of has a bad day, and the other person triggers off of the resultant behavior and begins to act badly, too. We have both had to learn to ignore what our emotions tell us about the behavior we see from one another and remember that we can't assume motivations. 

If I'm insecure about how he is acting, I just ask him for reassurance. He has never declined to talk to me about it as long as I ASK and don't just start poking at him.


----------



## john117

Better yet, if the "bad days" are often work related, ask yourself why do I need to bring it at home.

Instead of elaborate preparation and hand signals that you're having a bad day why not address the root cause and deal with it without burdening the other person?

I understand the need for emotional support but even the most patient Golden Retriever gives up eventually. 

A month ago we got the dreaded email at work about offering early retirement. The average age at work is "dead" so there's lots of us with 30+ years. They sweetened the pot considerably offering a years salary for > 25 years. A couple of friends took it. Me? I just laughed it off. 

Had it been my wife that'd be the ONLY topic of conversation for months. 

Maybe it's just me.


----------



## MEM2020

GI,

I don't think M2's motivations are bad. She is usually feeling bad, tense, anxious and trying to feel less bad. 

This is why these conversations must be soft in tone. Because if they aren't M2 jumps straight from:

You think my behavior is bad - to - you think I'm a bad person

This is where a gentle and understated comment - punches right through without collateral damage. 

Babe, it's hard to stay motivated when my best efforts produce a painful result.

The reaction to that tends to be: I know (repeated 3-4 times in rapid succession) followed by: I'm not that person anymore.

This is the exact same person who told me on numerous occasions that: "I haven't changed, and I'm not going to, I'm the same person you married way back".




GettingIt said:


> That was poor writing on my part--yes, all behavior derives from motivation. What I should have said is not all bad behavior is *necessarily* from nefarious motivation. That doesn't excuse the dishonesty inherent in feeling one way but acting another. However, sometimes we can better forgive bad behavior when we can sympathize or empathize with the *true* motivation.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree. And when we reach our limit, we should communicate it and make our actions match our words.
> 
> 
> 
> How many times did he put you down before you chose to communicate your limit and match your behavior to your words? This is where healthy boundary setting comes into play.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For me, a bad day is when I'm feeling irritation that I fear will morph into anxiety, or anxiety that I fear will morph into a panic attack. I have a history of not coping with negative emotions well--they all got expressed as anger. So any negative emotion--even when justified--tends to make me very uncomfortable because I don't trust myself to handle it well.
> 
> A good day for me is when I don't feel irritation, but merely say what is on my mind without the *need* for the outcome to look a certain way. I simply trust that my husband will hear me and do his utmost to give me what I need, and trust that if he doesn't, it's because he cannot, not because he's punishing me or being self serving.
> 
> On my worst days, I allow little negative feelings to fester until they've become panic, at which point I'm no longer able to get down from the panic without my husband's help--meaning he has to do exactly what I want him to do even if I'm acting horribly. I *have* to have control.


----------



## always_alone

john117 said:


> Quick to conclusions, as always (pun intended).


Not really. I mean, you said as much yourself.

And yes, I have a whole repertoire of teaching methods that do not involve any belittling, condescension, put downs, or even drills. Yes, even complicated high-level stuff.


----------



## always_alone

john117 said:


> Discerning motives is a continuous process that takes into consideration a whole bunch of circumstances over time.
> 
> If you try to discern motive based on an instantaneous observation you're going to be wrong. You form a list of alternatives and work from there.


Yes agreed. And if you try to discern motives based on preconceptions that you are completely unwilling to examine, then there's a high probability of error. No matter how much thought you put into it


----------



## john117

"Stressful" does not imply any of the other attributes you conjured... Perhaps there is a formula for teaching multidimensional scaling or cluster analysis in a pleasant manner???


----------



## john117

always_alone said:


> Yes agreed. And if you try to discern motives based on preconceptions that you are completely unwilling to examine, then there's a high probability of error. No matter how much thought you put into it


How would you even identify a preconception that you're completely unwilling to examine?

It's not like everything is neatly labeled or anything... 

Are you familiar with the scientific method?


----------



## always_alone

GettingIt said:


> Why did it take some time to figure it out? What did you do the first time you felt that he put you down? Or did the pattern establish itself before you called him on it?


I dunno, exactly. Probably I'm just stupid. But he was also subtle, I guess. At any rate, he did it in a way that I did not initially recognize as a put down, even though it absolutely was.

After the dust had settled, I was talking to some friends about it, and they apparently saw it all along. But neglected to talk to me about it because they figured I knew what I was doing. 

Not so much apparently.

With my SO, he rarely takes his negative stuff out on me, but he does like to just not talk about certain things. He prefers just to not let it be an issue, rather than work through it. Which I find a bit frustrating.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
There is tone neutral and then there is tone positive. 

When I'm teaching something complicated, and perceive the student(s) are getting frustrated I inject some anaesthesia. 

"This is complicated, it takes most folks a lot of examples and a few iterations."

And the occasional: you picked that up faster than I did

Your style on TAM is very much not like that. 







john117 said:


> "Stressful" does not imply any of the other attributes you conjured... Perhaps there is a formula for teaching multidimensional scaling or cluster analysis in a pleasant manner???


----------



## john117

This works well if you're teaching relatively simple stuff to an audience that's fresh, relaxed to begin with, and so on. That was my experience when I taught classes as a grad student.

Things get a bit more complicated when you're trying to cram everything into several hours a day when both of you are tired after a days work, or when you have no lesson plan, or outright you don't have a prerequisite and still need to go forward.

I made the comparison to basic training for a reason.


----------



## always_alone

john117 said:


> "Stressful" does not imply any of the other attributes you conjured... Perhaps there is a formula for teaching multidimensional scaling or cluster analysis in a pleasant manner???


No, "stressful" need not entail those other components, but you did simply agree with me when I suggested that they were probably there anyway.

And no, there is no formula, but there are techniques and methods. But it does require someone skilled in teaching, or at least willing to learn.


----------



## always_alone

john117 said:


> How would you even identify a preconception that you're completely unwilling to examine?
> 
> It's not like everything is neatly labeled or anything...
> 
> Are you familiar with the scientific method?


Yes, as a matter of fact I am. And yes, I get that "discovery" is one of the hardest components of knowledge to achieve.


----------



## always_alone

john117 said:


> This works well if you're teaching relatively simple stuff to an audience that's fresh, relaxed to begin with, and so on. That was my experience when I taught classes as a grad student.
> 
> Things get a bit more complicated when you're trying to cram everything into several hours a day when both of you are tired after a days work, or when you have no lesson plan, or outright you don't have a prerequisite and still need to go forward.
> 
> I made the comparison to basic training for a reason.


The thing is that someone who knows their subject matter well and also has a good sense of how to structure the "pain points" when it comes to learning that discipline can take a lot of the frustration out of learning, and replace it with more positive motivations.

Your first mistake was no lesson plan. If you want to jumpstart someone's understanding in a complex field, you think carefully about how to do that. You don't just start cramming concepts down their throat hoping they will grasp everything quickly. You focus on the core and most difficult, and look for the entry points.

And before you start snarking about tying shoelaces, elementary schoolkids, and how highly complex your field is, let me just say, yes, I am talking about the hard stuff.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
So you took a good opportunity to bond and turned it into boot camp. Why am I not surprised? 

And btw - I love the condescending tone about how it works on simple material. That is (laughing) your main go to move when you've gone off the rails - the claim that us mortals can't really comprehend the hostile environment up there on cognitive mount Olympus. 

IME - this ego protecting shroud - yours and hers - creates the biggest blindspots regarding self awareness. 




john117 said:


> This works well if you're teaching relatively simple stuff to an audience that's fresh, relaxed to begin with, and so on. That was my experience when I taught classes as a grad student.
> 
> Things get a bit more complicated when you're trying to cram everything into several hours a day when both of you are tired after a days work, or when you have no lesson plan, or outright you don't have a prerequisite and still need to go forward.
> 
> I made the comparison to basic training for a reason.


----------



## john117

always_alone said:


> No, "stressful" need not entail those other components, but you did simply agree with me when I suggested that they were probably there anyway.
> 
> And no, there is no formula, but there are techniques and methods. But it does require someone skilled in teaching, or at least willing to learn.


You must have majored in Wild Inferences I'm afraid...

Teaching methods work great in a formal classroom environment... With lesson plans, prerequisites, the whole nine yards. Don't recall having any of those.


----------



## always_alone

john117 said:


> You must have majored in Wild Inferences I'm afraid...
> 
> Teaching methods work great in a formal classroom environment... With lesson plans, prerequisites, the whole nine yards. Don't recall having any of those.


They also work great without the formal classroom environment. It just takes a bit of planning.

Honestly, though, I totally get why you found the whole experience frustrating, especially given how you approached it. 

I also understand why your wife might be less than overwhelmed with gratitude, despite the obvious time you put into it


----------



## john117

Great opportunity for bonding....










You have much to learn, my friend.


----------



## MEM2020

John,

While it's true I have much to learn, you aren't exactly my idealized role model in this area. I aspire to a different result than you are in the process of achieving.....





john117 said:


> Great opportunity for bonding....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have much to learn, my friend.


----------



## john117

I'm on this planet to help design stuff, MEM. Nothing else. 

You have three years worth of hard data pointing to two people who fundamentally hate each other and you mention "bonding opportunity"? I mean, come on, I know people are optimistic on this side of the pond, but there's optimism and there's "hope and change"...

Thirty five years ago we ran into each other in class as MS/MA students and indeed bonded over "Statistical Methods for Research", cursed be the professor that taught the class. We bonded over early versions of SPSS and spent hours together in the Statistics department computer room. But times have changed, and we along with them. 

if your partner is a taker, giving results in more giving asked of you, and not in any kind of gratitude or appreciation that you can use to build (bond) upon.


----------



## MEM2020

I just know those two people used to love each other....




john117 said:


> I'm on this planet to help design stuff, MEM. Nothing else.
> 
> You have three years worth of hard data pointing to two people who fundamentally hate each other and you mention "bonding opportunity"? I mean, come on, I know people are optimistic on this side of the pond, but there's optimism and there's "hope and change"...
> 
> Thirty five years ago we ran into each other in class as MS/MA students and indeed bonded over "Statistical Methods for Research", cursed be the professor that taught the class. We bonded over early versions of SPSS and spent hours together in the Statistics department computer room. But times have changed, and we along with them.
> 
> if your partner is a taker, giving results in more giving asked of you, and not in any kind of gratitude or appreciation that you can use to build (bond) upon.


----------



## john117

And North and South Korea were once united 

I'm the closest one can get to be clairvoyant, and don't see a path towards reunification. I wish I did see a path. I don't. 

The next year will play out predictably. In a few months she will proclaim her job a disaster, and start getting stressed again. She will have the doubt of not having taken any of the other offers. She will blame me. She will start working long hours once again to ensure I don't get the wrong ideas. Our relationship will not improve because there's no compelling reason for her to do so. 

In other words, my friend, she has no reason to want reunification. Do you think Kim Jong Un wants reunification?


----------



## Personal

john117 said:


> This works well if you're teaching relatively simple stuff to an audience that's fresh, relaxed to begin with, and so on. That was my experience when I taught classes as a grad student.
> 
> Things get a bit more complicated when you're trying to cram everything into several hours a day when both of you are tired after a days work, or when you have no lesson plan, or outright you don't have a prerequisite and still need to go forward.
> 
> I made the comparison to basic training for a reason.


If you had any experience of being a basic training instructor I doubt you would have made the comparison.

As a former Recruit Instructor I can relate that all of the lessons I delivered in that role (which incidentally exempting theory lessons were taught using either the EDI or EDP method), always followed the preparation of a lesson plan and a lesson rehearsal.


----------



## john117

I grew up in or around military bases in my birth country as an army brat. Most everyone I know has gone thru basic training.

I was referring to the intensity of the experience and amount of material to digest, not the structure and organization of the lessons


----------



## Personal

john117 said:


> I grew up in or around military bases in my birth country as an army brat. Most everyone I know has gone thru basic training.
> 
> I was referring to the intensity of the experience and amount of material to digest, not the structure and organization of the lessons


Yet you referred to the "intensity of the experience" upon yourself as well, in my experience stressed instructors don't make for great lessons. Again in my experience normally when considerable course content is delivered within a high intensity high tempo course environment it is delivered by well rested and well prepared instructors.

As to recruit courses,... pft! The recruit course I did as a trainee replete with blanket bashings, other physical violence lest one wanted a charge, suicide attempts by some, verbal abuse etc (back in the 80's) was the easiest course I ever did in the Army.

Despite formerly being an infantry platoon sergeant, the hardest courses I ever went through in service, were the suite of back-to-back Intelligence courses which went on for months in the 00's.

Civilised though they were, with our weekends off and the classroom environment, the amount of material and the stress was enormous, so to was the failure rate. Even though most of the students were MENSA grade or very close to it and exempting the few civilians were also experienced service members.

The most leisurely course was the first one which lasted two weeks, so it was 10 days of work that saw 105 classroom hours, then add a ton of homework, PT a few times a week, personal admin time etc, it ensured that sleep was in very short supply. The courses following that were even more intense.

Apologies for the thread diversion, that said I do appreciate the thought that has been applied by all throughout this discussion.


----------



## always_alone

john117 said:


> You have three years worth of hard data pointing to two people who fundamentally hate each other and you mention "bonding opportunity"? I mean, come on, I know people are optimistic on this side of the pond, but there's optimism and there's "hope and change"...


Really, what's most surprising to me is that you think your wife should be appreciative of your help. MEM called it way back: this was no favour. Yes, it cost you time and frustration, but it wasn't really her well-being you were looking out for, was it?


----------



## imtamnew

Had an interesting moment today. Wife and I were standing by our window which overlooks a swimming pool. A young couple was getting into it. She remarked on the nice looking lady. I said yes she does look nice and that its a good couple just wish the guy wore better trunks... And we both had a laugh.


----------

