# Confused???



## udontknowme (May 13, 2013)

Here is my delima in a nut shell. About two months ago after an arguement with my wife over the kids that shouldn't have been an arguement in my opinion I packed some clothes and left to cool off. When i returned the next day she gave me the ilybinilwy speech and told me she wanted space. i couldn't believe it. I thought our marriage was solid.

We was split up for only a week,I decided i would be the one to leave because i felt she was not thinking clearly.During this week I discovered she had been talking on the phone to a coworker daily after work for 6 months 30-45 minutes per call. I confronted her and she said he was just a friend, they discussed work,and vented about work related problems.This bothered me but I did nothing at this time to stop the calls.

We ended up back together a week later and I still watched the phone records and the calls did slack off in frequency and in length of time but they was still occuring.

Fast forward to may 1.We get in another discussion that leads into an argument and I confront again about the phone calls still occuring . I threaten to go find him and kick his a$$ if it doesn't stop. she tells me to go ahead.I cooled off but she left and told me this time she wanted us to separate.She went to a hotel that night not far from home and I left her alone, the next day she came back and took up residence in our camper. 

Since then we have talked some days and some days go by without speaking or communicating at all.She has agreeded to stop all outside of work communication with the om and the phone records do back that up although she could be imessaging and I would never know.

Her plan is to, as soon as she has the funds ,she will move the camper on some rental property and live in it for a while ,while she "figures things out" 

Her reasons for the separation include these- she says she has never been independent and feels like she has depended on me her whole life for everything,she says I'm boring,she wants more of a social life and feels I have held her back,she is bringing up things I did up to 10 years ago giving examples of when I wasn't considerate of her feelings.

Up until recently we seemed like the perfect couple now shes very unhappy with everything.People i tell about this cannot believe it, we was the type of couple that was very affectionate to each other in public and rarely ever argued.

We agreeded that we would not date other people during this separation and that we would still have sex with each other instead of looking other places. I know to some that seems strange but the sex is okay with me as long as it isn't dominated by one or the other. To make it fair we agreed to take turns,I pick when then it's her turn to pick when...sound strange , yeah i know but it's working for us.

Here is the thing that is most strange to me and bothers me most. At random times she will reach out to me for a hug or a kiss, very passionatly, as if we are okay for the moment. She has also invited me to go to sleep with her on 2 occassions. I did it with very mixed emotions. One hand, I enjoyed it also, but on the other hand I feel like it's some game. We have talked about it,and she says it is as real as it gets for the moment she really feels love and wants to be close to me but she also fears doing this may hurt both of us,she says she's especially worried that if we don't make it through this that I will think she has been leading me on. She also seems to pull back after one of these moments the next day and she says that she feels guilty because she knows she s not 100% in our relationship and thinks it could lead to more hurt.
I personally don't know what to think,I am so confused.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Yes, it's a game. That doesn't mean she's trying to hurt you, but you will get hurt just the same. If you want her back, remember the guy she was first attracted to. Would *he* have put up with this? 

I'd encourage you to say you do not want ANY more contact until she makes up her mind to be with you or without you. By keeping the arrangement you've got going, you'll letting her ease out of your relationship. She can have you when she's lonely, but still be available for the bigger better deal.


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## udontknowme (May 13, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> Yes, it's a game. That doesn't mean she's trying to hurt you, but you will get hurt just the same. If you want her back, remember the guy she was first attracted to. Would *he* have put up with this?
> 
> I'd encourage you to say you do not want ANY more contact until she makes up her mind to be with you or without you. By keeping the arrangement you've got going, you'll letting her ease out of your relationship. She can have you when she's lonely, but still be available for the bigger better deal.


When you say ANY do you mean no text, calls, talking, or are you speaking of physical contact or all.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Ouch, she's slowly, if not already disconnected from the marriage. This is VERY serious, and one of the hardest issues to overcome in a marriage, especially since she's basically having an emotional affair with another man to test the boundries. Right now, she gets her cake, and is eating it to.

Have you discussed getting into marriage counseling? You might want to set that up right away, and hope she's willing to come. You need to go either way. Your walking a very thin line right now, and one step either way could bring it all crashing down.

I'm sorry your here, I feel for you. Do a google search of therapists in your area, make sure you read their bio's and try to pick someone that specializes in couples/family/marriage therapy. You also need to try find some things to keep your mind busy, and not dwell to much on the situation when your over thinking it all.

How old are you and your wife, how long have you been together/married?


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

udontknowme said:


> When you say ANY do you mean no text, calls, talking, or are you speaking of physical contact or all.


NO contact = no texting, calling, talking, physical contact, or even spending time in the same restaurant at lunch.

Here's the thing... 

If she doesn't know what's going on with you, it'll lead her to believe you're moving on without her. Which you *should* do! Don't let your self-esteem get shredded by this. She wants her independence? Give it to her! As she starts recognizing that she loses you by gaining all that alone time and not getting her needs met by the OM (or anyone else), she'll decide either to come back or to find someone who does meet her needs. 

But if you're hanging in there like this, she gets to find someone who meets her needs AND have you meeting her needs. Why would she give that up and have less of her needs and wants met? Short answer: She won't.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

I'm sorry OP but you can bet your life she is having an A with this co worker.
Read the stickies in the CWI Section and read a couple of the threads then come back.
Her A has caused her to rewrite the marriage history and she is in her A 'fog'.
There is no chance of saving the marriage while the A is still going on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## udontknowme (May 13, 2013)

Thumper said:


> Ouch, she's slowly, if not already disconnected from the marriage. This is VERY serious, and one of the hardest issues to overcome in a marriage, especially since she's basically having an emotional affair with another man to test the boundries. Right now, she gets her cake, and is eating it to.
> 
> Have you discussed getting into marriage counseling? You might want to set that up right away, and hope she's willing to come. You need to go either way. Your walking a very thin line right now, and one step either way could bring it all crashing down.
> 
> ...


We went one time to MC last week she was very open with the counselor, but we had another meeting scheduled yesterday and she didn't show up. she has told me she may not ever go back.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Personally, I think you'll benefit from counseling, perhaps, but I do not think your marriage will. I wouldn't ask her to go because it'll just be a case of doing the minimum she has to do in order to keep getting the benefits from you. 

Don't undervalue yourself! 

If you want her to respect, admire, and love you, be a man that commands respect by being true to himself and those who treat him well. She is NOT treating you well.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

You are her backup plan. She's ALMOST ready to move on. She will be soon and you will be gone. Start your 180 and no sex with her. Find some good porn sites you like.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

The next step in the affair evolution will be a comment by her, "I love you, but im not in love with you"= ILUBINILWY

If you hear those words soon, if she hasn't used them yet, GO DARK IMMEIDATELY.

She's become bored with the marriage because of all the extra attention she's receiving from this other man. OM. This is the last step before the words "divorce" are used. 

Going dark is a term used for no contact. This is very important to stay on top of. Right now she's getting the best of both worlds, you need to kick her out of the camper right away, off the property, set up boundries: like times she can pick up the kids, if u have any. Take her out of her comfort zone, its sad, but sometimes they need to see the OM for what he really is, right now its all warm and fuzzy, but it wont be when its all forced. She cant miss you, if your still having sex, talking via texts/cell/phone/email. Cut her off, she'll wonder (hopefully) what she's giving up. Beware this is all gonna take some time, months on up to a year. Prepare yourself that this is gonna be war on your mind/spirit/body/sleep/eating. Take care of yourself. DO NOT BEG/CRY/PLEAD with her in ANY way, as this makes you look weak and desperate and will only push her to the other man faster.

This is the 180 plan btw: http://www.network54.com/Forum/233195/thread/1302875291/last-1302891381/The+180
it can work but involves more contact, so she can still feel some comfort, and try to manuipulate you emotionally, stay strong.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Your wife is having, or has had, an affair with her coworker. They are likely still involved. She has checked out of your marriage.

You need to prepare yourself to move on as well by running the 180.
The Healing Heart: The 180

Sometimes, running the 180 will wake your spouse up to what she is losing. By slowly withdrawing from you, yet still being in your proximity, she is getting an unrealistic picture of what life post-divorce will be like. She won't get any more booty calls with you. She won't get to see her kids whenever she wants. She will be a part-time parent. And when her kids are with you, she will either be alone, or with another man, or men.

The 180 gives her a sneak peek at that. And sometimes, it's enough to snap them out of their fog and realize that they don't want to lose their marriage.

Also, work on yourself during this time. Get in the gym. Get a hobby. Post updates on Facebook of you at concerts with groups of mixed sex friends. Be interesting. Your wife may get attracted to you again.

Good luck.


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## udontknowme (May 13, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> Your wife is having, or has had, an affair with her coworker. They are likely still involved. She has checked out of your marriage.
> 
> You need to prepare yourself to move on as well by running the 180.
> The Healing Heart: The 180
> ...


I appreciate the feedback but there is no evidence to say she has absolutely cheated, lets assume for a minute that it was not a PA but an unattetional EA and it has now stopped. Would i still be better served to trying this 180 out based only on her behavoirs.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Just so you know, the "real" reason for her being apart from you is not to "figures things out", it so she and her OM can have time together without you getting in the way

Sorry but I'm pretty sure this has already gone physical


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## udontknowme (May 13, 2013)

Thumper said:


> The next step in the affair evolution will be a comment by her, "I love you, but im not in love with you"= ILUBINILWY
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

udontknowme said:


> I appreciate the feedback but there is no evidence to say she has absolutely cheated, lets assume for a minute that it was not a PA but an unattetional EA and it has now stopped. Would i still be better served to trying this 180 out based only on her behavoirs.


There's a TON of evidence that you're ignoring! 

1. She moved out. This is a HUGE indicator that it's physical. It gives her freedom to do what she wants without having to cover her tracks much.
2. She continued to interact with him even after knowing it was harming her marriage.
3. In my _opinion_ her behavior would be different if she'd stopped. I'd expect her either to be dating others openly if she was going to end your relationship or she'd be talking to you in different ways than what you're seeing. She'd be wanting to spend time with you and hash out relationship problems, not just texting you for booty call when she can't have him. 

The 180 has some great techniques, and I think you can get some very limited benefit from them now, but I think you'd be better off going no contact. If you use the 180, it will just make it easier for her to do what she's doing to you.

Here's something for you to consider: 

People rewrite their memories in order to support whatever they want to believe. She's rewritten your history together in a way that now tells her it was "boring" and he was "exciting." Ok... as long as you are in the picture and so is he (and like it or not, he is!) she'll do this. If you walk away, she'll be rewriting again. 

Do you know anything about the OM? Is he married?


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

udontknowme said:


> Thumper said:
> 
> 
> > She has told me over and over she does not want a divorce at this time she wants time alone to figure out what she wants, I don't know what to think of it either but this is what she says
> ...


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

udontknowme said:


> She has told me over and over she does not want a divorce at this time she wants time alone to figure out what she wants, I don't know what to think of it either but this is what she says


Have you actually read any of the threads in the Coping with Infidelity forum?

"...time alone to figure out what she wants" is code for: she needs time to spend with the other man to determine if she should leave you for him.

She's moving out so she can spend more time with the OM; to see what a "normal" relationship with him would be like. If they haven't had sex yet, they will.

This is no different than buying a new pair of shoes. When you try on the new shoes, sometimes you like them so much you tell the store to throw away your old shoes and just wear them out of the store. But, you never throw away your old pair of shoes till you decide you definitely want the new pair.

You're the old pair of shoes. The OM is the new pair of shoes. She's trying him on for size, and if she likes the fit she'll continue to wear him and dispose of her old "pair or shoes."

Open your eyes. You are her fallback plan in case things don't work out with the OM.


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## udontknowme (May 13, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> There's a TON of evidence that you're ignoring!
> 
> 1. She moved out. This is a HUGE indicator that it's physical. It gives her freedom to do what she wants without having to cover her tracks much.
> *She lives next to our house in our camper.*
> ...


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

udontknowme said:


> She did for about a month


She did that you KNOW of, theres a ton of apps now where they can have full texts and leave no record, chat on, I believe is one. Theres also instant messaging. Some of these apps are just plain evil cause of the spy programs you can put on phones now, or the ability to bring up deleted information from up to a year previous, people have become experts at hiding an affair. TRUST ME ON THIS. I'm in your exact shoes, just further down the path. You cant find what you cant always see, or chose to see.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

I do not understand these posters that come on here with questions. Then get answers from people who not only read the same stuff day after day, but LIVED it, then spend the rest of their energy defending the wayward spouse and arguing how "this is different".

OP. Look at my "joined" date. I was reading on here 6 months before I signed up. That's three years of reading hundreds of these posts. Literally hundreds. They are right. You are wrong. You need to do what these people are telling you. They have surely described your wife to a TEE. I can guarantee it. NOBODY wants to believe the love of their life, their best friend, their soul mate can do this to them. Well, they can. She has found someone else. You need to start acting on this. Now.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

udontknowme, I see your answers to the "evidence" I said you're ignoring. It just showed me you're still ignoring. I know it might feel like I'm clubbing you over the head and being rude when I say that. I promise that it's not my intention! 

People naturally want to protect their loved ones and to preserve the relationships that matter to them. I see that you're doing this, and it's admirable that you care about her and your relationship, but you are in the dark about what is really going on. 

Her being in a camper next to your house doesn't mean a thing. If you want to know the truth, hide a voice activated recorder (VAR) in there and then come back and post after you've listened to a few days' worth of recordings.


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## udontknowme (May 13, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> udontknowme, I see your answers to the "evidence" I said you're ignoring. It just showed me you're still ignoring. I know it might feel like I'm clubbing you over the head and being rude when I say that. I promise that it's not my intention!
> 
> People naturally want to protect their loved ones and to preserve the relationships that matter to them. I see that you're doing this, and it's admirable that you care about her and your relationship, but you are in the dark about what is really going on.
> 
> Her being in a camper next to your house doesn't mean a thing. If you want to know the truth, hide a voice activated recorder (VAR) in there and then come back and post after you've listened to a few days' worth of recordings.


The phone calls to the OM was ONLY after work while they was both driving home, I don't know if that makes any difference to you all but it did to me,there never was any calls on the weekends,or nights.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

udontknowme said:


> The phone calls to the OM was ONLY after work while they was both driving home, I don't know if that makes any difference to you all but it did to me,there never was any calls on the weekends,or nights.


Yes. That makes all the difference in the world. Everything is great. You have nothing to worry about.

Better?


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Have the call slacked off anymore since she moved out? Possibly because he's visiting her at the camper? Stake out the camper and see who's coming and going.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

sandc said:


> Have the call slacked off anymore since she moved out? Possibly because he's visiting her at the camper? Stake out the camper and see who's coming and going.


Point a webcam (discreetly) at the camper.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

udontknowme said:


> The phone calls to the OM was ONLY after work while they was both driving home, I don't know if that makes any difference to you all but it did to me,there never was any calls on the weekends,or nights.


The smart man hopes for the best, but prepares for the worst.

Be smart.

There's nothing wrong with hoping for the best--nothing at all.

But, you should make your plans and preparations based on the worst case scenario--that she is having an affair and it has already gone physical.


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## udontknowme (May 13, 2013)

I have watched the camper, nothing going on, I did the VAR for a few days about a month ago and her and the OM went to get food at a local deli, nothing was said that would indicate an affair was going on and he asked questions about the vehicle as if it was the first time he had been in it. Another thing to note, she has admitted to me her exact words "he is an attractive man and she knew that she was wrong because she did seek his attention but never did anything physical happen between them"


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## udontknowme (May 13, 2013)

Cora28 said:


> Did she say why she won´t go back? Was she on her own at all during the session? Maybe the counsellor said something she didn´t like (the harsh reality?)?
> 
> If she doesn´t want MC, I´m afraid what people are saying here is most likely right. It´s definitely either an EA or a PA but it is an affair and she is on a high from the attention from the OM. The fact she´s asked for some space means she´s trying out what living without you is like and is most likely envisioning it. It´s hard to make the break when you´ve been with someone for a long time (I know I´d find it hard) but she wouldnt be doing it if someone else wasn´t on the scene IMO.
> 
> You need to act fast before you lose her forever.


The MC did call her out on the fact that whether intentional or not it was at least an EA.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

udontknowme said:


> I have watched the camper, nothing going on, I did the VAR for a few days about a month ago and her and the OM went to get food at a local deli, nothing was said that would indicate an affair was going on and he asked questions about the vehicle as if it was the first time he had been in it. Another thing to note, she has admitted to me her exact words "he is an attractive man and she knew that she was wrong because she did seek his attention but never did anything physical happen between them"


OK. Let's assume that the affair hasn't gone physical. But it's an emotional affair. And emotional affairs have a natural progression to physical affairs.

Emotional affairs are hard enough to overcome when the disloyal spouse recognizes the damage to the marriage, ends the affair, apologizes, recommits to the marriage, and works to overcome the damage done.

You don't have any of that. Your wife says that she recognized it was wrong and that she sought his attention. But she hasn't ended the contact. She's only lessened it. They still work together. She can start things back up anytime she wants.

And, she's actively distancing herself from you. Your wife is rationalizing that she's behaving morally, or at least fairly morally, because she hasn't had sex with her boyfriend yet.

That's exactly how people rationalize affairs. By the time she gets naked with the guy, she will have rationalized that it's OK. She's just not there yet.

You have three choices. First, you can end the affair completely. That means no contact. It will mean that she must quit or transfer so that she doesn't see him anymore. Second, you can divorce her. Third, you can just sit back and let her have an open marriage, if she wants it. And she probably will.

Good luck.


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## udontknowme (May 13, 2013)

Cora28 said:


> and what was her reaction to that? It sounds as though she shut down if she doesnt want to go back.


She had no reaction or comment to the MC when she called it an EA.
She was against the MC from the beginning. She only went the first time to please me.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

udontknowme said:


> The MC did call her out on the fact that whether intentional or not it was at least an EA.


Sounds like she's afraid he will dig deeper.


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## udontknowme (May 13, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> OK. Let's assume that the affair hasn't gone physical. But it's an emotional affair. And emotional affairs have a natural progression to physical affairs.
> 
> Emotional affairs are hard enough to overcome when the disloyal spouse recognizes the damage to the marriage, ends the affair, apologizes, recommits to the marriage, and works to overcome the damage done.
> 
> ...


That's easy for you to say, to do #1 and #2 it's much harder.#1that's her job, I can't make her quit she is an adult #2 I don't want to divorce her not my goal #3 I won't sit back and have an open marriage, this will come to an end one way or the other.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

udontknowme said:


> That's easy for you to say, to do #1 and #2 it's much harder.#1that's her job, I can't make her quit she is an adult #2 I don't want to divorce her not my goal #3 I won't sit back and have an open marriage, this will come to an end one way or the other.


It's easy to say because it's easy to logically deduce your options. I'm not saying that making your choice and executing it will be easy. I'm just saying that you will ultimately decide one of the three I mentioned.

As for her being responsible for ending the affair, that is true. However, you are not powerless. At heart, you must communicate to her that you will not tolerate her pursuing another man while you are married. You haven't done that. You've allowed her to pursue the other man and hoped that she either will be unsuccessful, or will suddenly change her mind and choose to focus on you.

By default, you have chosen #3. You don't think you can end her affair and you refuse to divorce her. So, you're going to just sit back and hope for the best. Sometimes that works out. Usually, it doesn't.

Good luck.


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## udontknowme (May 13, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> It's easy to say because it's easy to logically deduce your options. I'm not saying that making your choice and executing it will be easy. I'm just saying that you will ultimately decide one of the three I mentioned.
> 
> As for her being responsible for ending the affair, that is true. However, you are not powerless. At heart, you must communicate to her that you will not tolerate her pursuing another man while you are married. You haven't done that. You've allowed her to pursue the other man and hoped that she either will be unsuccessful, or will suddenly change her mind and choose to focus on you.
> 
> ...


I've told her absolutely no contact with him after work they have to talk at work because he is her boss.She has agreed to these terms. I also called him and told him how I felt and he was sympathetic, and assured me that he would stop. He also said it wasn't the first time he had upset husbands calling him for talking to his coworkers too much on the phone. Then again he could be full of sheet.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

udontknowme said:


> I've told her absolutely no contact with him after work they have to talk at work because he is her boss.She has agreed to these terms. I also called him and told him how I felt and he was sympathetic, and assured me that he would stop. *He also said it wasn't the first time he had upset husbands calling him for talking to his coworkers too much on the phone. *Then again he could be full of sheet.


No, I think he's telling you the truth here. Is this a larger company that would have an HR department? If so you may want to call them and let them know you put her boss on notice. If not, then forget I said it.


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