# Calling the 'love experts'



## Me'N'My'Girl

A little background. Im 29, H is 32.. Been together for 13 years , married for 8. H is a handsome guy, has a good paying job and is very successful at work. Works long hours. He leaves at 9 am returns back at almost 9 pm. We have 2 girls and a boy, ages 5 and under. So of course life is a bit hectic and difficult with them being so young.

Our marriage was never a great one. We've had our ups and -an awful lot of- downs in our relationship. But right now we are in a very dull place. We sleep on the same bed, but we're miles and miles away from each other. I can honestly say that i don't feel any connection to my husband anymore. Our sex life is almost non existent. And even when we do have sex, it is just so mechanical and quick that it makes me resent him even more. We've totally lost the spark in our relationship. Its more like i love him but I'm not in love with him. 

I think that our kids are the reason we are still together. Just for the record, my H is a good guy. He loves his kids and provides well for the family, so its not like i'm being abused in the relationship. But i feel that we are total opposites. We don't share any hobbies. Both of us have our own separate lives.

We talked a lot about it and its clear that we both hold a ton of resentment against each other. He let me down a lot and he wasn't "emotionally" there for me when i really needed him. My husband was never my friend. Actually he's the last one I'd ever think of talking to when i need to. Because when i do talk to him, He pretends like he's listening but he's just not there. He's always distracted at home , he's either on facebook, playing xbox or editing his pictures, he took on this hobby lately and its overtaking his life. When we go out or travel he's so distracted taking pictures. When we're home he's so distracted editing pictures. Its come to the point that I Hate going out with him. When i complain that its become too much, he resents me for it.

He says I'm always criticizing him and treating him like he's one of my children and this makes him pull away from me. I realize this is true and i'm trying not to do this but it's so hard when he sometimes acts just like them. He says that i don't understand his sense of humor and that I'm always serious all the time. And that I don't show my emotions and I'm not romantic with him anymore. All of this is true. 

The strange thing is that we both know what the other wants. We talked a lot throughout our relationship about that. We know them by heart. After every conversation things get better for 2 days and then we're back to the same point. It's like we're acting and forcing ourselves to change. It's so fake that we both just stop. When i tell him love him, I don't really meant it. When he says it to me, i don't feel it. I suggested going to a marriage counselor but he refused it profusely.

I'm at a point where i feel that theres more to life than this life I'm living. I started going to the gym daily. I take dancing classes. I go out with my friends. I started looking for a job, against his wish. He wants me to be a SAHM but i can't take it anymore. There is a huge thing missing in my life and i just don't know what this thing is.

I really don't know what i want from this post, but i just want to ask, is this the way marriages normally are? So dull and boring that you keep wondering how on earth did you end up here? Should i just accept the fact that this is how our life was meant to be and just go with the flow? It's not a bad marriage. We don't hate each other. We trust each other. We're used to being together, but is there any hope in improving our marriage?

That really turned out so long. Thanks for making it this far.


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## manfromlamancha

I am by no means a "love expert" but many marriages do "slow down" when kids come along and it is up to the both of you to reintroduce time for just the two of you - date nights are a good way to start.

Now you say that you have never been close to your husband. Why did you marry him ?

And since he is not meeting your (for want of a better word) sexual needs, how are you coping ? Have you started to notice "other guys" now that you are out and about ? Is there someone you have noticed already ?


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## MachoMcCoy

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> My husband was never my friend.


But you married him anyhow. NICE! That's 4 lives you've ruined (I'm not counting yours. As my mother would say: "You've made your bed..."). 

I shouldn't blame you 100%. In those pre-marriage seminars they don't tell you that you will probably fall out of love with your husband even if he WAS your friend at one point. But going in like that? Is it possible that it could be a LESS THAN 0% chance? No, it's all group hugs and "hang in there when it gets hard". They don't say: "look around you. Almost every one of the women you see in this room right now will hate their husbands within 10 years. Most of them within 5".

You need to fix this. 



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> H is 32....H is a handsome guy, has a good paying job and is very successful at work.


He's young, handsome and successful. Great for him. Now give him the greatest gift you could ever give him and leave him. I wish to god my wife did while there was still a chance for me. Now I'm too old. You can BOTH start over with the lessons you learned from this travesty.

And I don't give a CRAP about if this will make you happy or not. I don't care about you. You caused this. Now fix it. Do something right for the first time in 13 years.


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## Yeswecan

Kids do tend to make things slow down. Your H works long hours to support the family. These you know. It takes some work these marriages. Instead of running from the issue, try taking it head on. You must take the time to be together. At least 15 hours weekly just the two of you. It can be spread out over the week. Coffee together in the morning. Watch a show or two in the evening. Kids in bed! As much as people say kids first and feel all proud inside about it, in reality spouses first and kids will happily follow. A loving environment is much more healthy for all involved in the long run.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

I don't know if it makes sense, I always loved my husband but he was never my friend. He was always the jealous type and there were always problems when we went out with friends. I am a very outgoing person, and i can be very open about my life when i meet people, even if it's my first time meeting them. He says that men get it the wrong way and It caused an awful lot of problems between us. So from early on I learnt that I can't talk about everything with him because he'll take it the wrong way and it will start a fight between us. 

As for our sexual needs we're both not satisfied. It's a bit complicated. You see, i was his first sexual partner and he was my first too. So when we first started having sex we were both very naive. But i really wanted to explore my sexuality and i wanted to try everything. He on other hand was more into vanilla sex. I tried to open him up, but he was very resistant to try anything new. Our communication sucked at that time, and over the years i started to get frustrated and started hating sex with him more and more. He never complained even when we went for months at a time without having sex. i never rejected him, he simply didn't come to me. He would resent me, pull away and masturbate. I admit at some point I said some very hurtful things but i was in a bad place. One day i just reached a breaking point and told him that i can't continue like this, that the lack of sex made him not "man enough" in my eyes. Needless to say, our relationship totally broke up after this. We separated for 3 months. He was deeply hurt by what i said, pulled away completely and it was something he never forgot to this day. I really regret saying this but it was what i was really feeling at the time. But when we seperated we both knew we can't live without each other. I called him and apologized and we had endless hours of conversations, tears and blame going back and forth. Anyways we decided to get back together.

After that the sex between us became almost non-existant. He rarely initiated sex, but he never turned me down. As time passed, i stopped initiating altogether as i like the more aggressive man and sex was not doing it much for me either. I remember the countless times I've cried in the shower after having sex. I decided it was just not worth it, but still i never turn him down. He also decided that it isn't worth the hassle and to this day masturbates daily which really really hurts me as he chooses this over me. When we talk about it, it's just the same conversation over and over again. He says that he wants me everyday but that my actions put him off. Its a vicious cycle and it is hopeless.

And no there isnt someone I noticed. But I am getting "more noticed" so to speak. But i never cheated and would never ever cheat. Its not even an option.


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## Anon Pink

Good for you for recognizing the serious trouble your marriage is heading towards!

You've got 3 kids under the age of five. You and your H are on totally different wave lengths. How often do you two have sex? How is your sex drive compared to his? When was the last time you two got away for the weekend without the kids? As you can tell from the poster above, not meeting a spouse's needs over long periods of time eats away at the soul leaving a bitter and resentful she'll behind.

Go here and print out two copies, 1 for each of you of the Emotional Needs questionnaire. Emotional Needs Questionnaire

My guess is that neither of you are fulfilling the others emotional needs, there is a lot of resentment on both of your sides of the street, and neither of you know exactly how to fix things.

Understanding what your spouse needs from you is the first step. Making a commitment to meet those needs is the second step, making that commitment a priority in your lives is the third step.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

MachoMcCoy said:


> But you married him anyhow. NICE! That's 4 lives you've ruined (I'm not counting yours. As my mother would say: "You've made your bed...").
> 
> I shouldn't blame you 100%. In those pre-marriage seminars they don't tell you that you will probably fall out of love with your husband even if he WAS your friend at one point. But going in like that? Is it possible that it could be a LESS THAN 0% chance? No, it's all group hugs and "hang in there when it gets hard". They don't say: "look around you. Almost every one of the women you see in this room right now will hate their husbands within 10 years. Most of them within 5".
> 
> You need to fix this.
> 
> 
> 
> He's young, handsome and successful. Great for him. Now give him the greatest gift you could ever give him and leave him. I wish to god my wife did while there was still a chance for me. Now I'm too old. You can BOTH start over with the lessons you learned from this travesty.
> 
> And I don't give a CRAP about if this will make you happy or not. I don't care about you. You caused this. Now fix it. Do something right for the first time in 13 years.



I don't really understand why you're being so aggressive. I loved my husband. We talked a lot. We were happy together. We trusted each other. We felt safe together. No one is perfect and you can't get everything you want in a relationship. These things for me were enough to decide to actually marry him. 

And yes i know i need to fix this. Why do you think I'm here?? I don't know about you and your wife, but I'm here to own my mistakes and learn from them. I would not leave this marriage without fighting till the very end.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Anon Pink said:


> Good for you for recognizing the serious trouble your marriage is heading towards!
> 
> You've got 3 kids under the age of five. You and your H are on totally different wave lengths. How often do you two have sex? How is your sex drive compared to his? When was the last time you two got away for the weekend without the kids? As you can tell from the poster above, not meeting a spouse's needs over long periods of time eats away at the soul leaving a bitter and resentful she'll behind.
> 
> Go here and print out two copies, 1 for each of you of the Emotional Needs questionnaire. Emotional Needs Questionnaire
> 
> My guess is that neither of you are fulfilling the others emotional needs, there is a lot of resentment on both of your sides of the street, and neither of you know exactly how to fix things.
> 
> Understanding what your spouse needs from you is the first step. Making a commitment to meet those needs is the second step, making that commitment a priority in your lives is the third step.


Thanks for taking the time to reply. We actually did this emotional needs questionaire at some point, but we couldn't really implement it.

The thing is we started hiring a nanny to stay with the kids and we'd go out on a date. But really theres nothing to talk about. We sit there not knowing what to say. I was never at a loss of words with anyone. But when we're together we just talk about the normal stuff. We talk a bit about his work, my day blah blah blah and then silence. I try to talk about our good memories together and try to tell him how much i love him. But it feels so fake i know it doesnt reach him. I really don't know what is happening. I honestly don't know how to fix this.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Yeswecan said:


> Kids do tend to make things slow down. Your H works long hours to support the family. These you know. It takes some work these marriages. Instead of running from the issue, try taking it head on. You must take the time to be together. At least 15 hours weekly just the two of you. It can be spread out over the week. Coffee together in the morning. Watch a show or two in the evening. Kids in bed! As much as people say kids first and feel all proud inside about it, in reality spouses first and kids will happily follow. A loving environment is much more healthy for all involved in the long run.


We do all these things. My kids sleep at 8. He comes at 9. We stay together till 12. Someimes we watch a movie, sometimes we go on a date. But we still can't get through to each other.


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## Hicks

I think what's being pointed out is you talk about problems that have existed forever in your relationship, but for some reason you plowed ahead with marriage and even further ahead in having one child then having a second child.

Now that you have created children, you have more of an obligation to make things work.

And the main thing you can do is meet his emotional needs which you say you know, and don't stop after 2 days. Do it without expectation that he is supposed to do anything for a few months and see if his behavior starts changing.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Lila said:


> There's much truth to the saying "marriage is hard work". You get as much out it as what you put in. It's like a house - it needs constant maintenance and sometimes a whole room makeover.
> 
> You've acknowledged certain long held resentments that keep you from connecting fully with your husband. I can personally attest that holding on to resentments will only help to destroy your relationship. It's like a cancer. It may start off as something small but then grows and invades other parts of your life. If you want to improve your relationship, then first work on letting go of the resentment towards your husband.
> 
> Best advice I can give you is to work on your mental and physical wellbeing. Learn to let go of those negative feelings.
> 
> Getting a job is a good decision too. It might give your husband an opportunity to see you as someone other than mom/wife.


You're right. I really have to get rid of those negative feelings. But the thing is they were really major stuff. The death of my dad, where he just wasn't there for me. my sever post partum depression were he totally neglected me. When i went to the hospital with severe pain and had to stay There for 10 days and never once did he stay over night with me when i really needed him to. When i gave birth to my son and he left me totally alone while i was giving birth and for the next 2 days while I stayed at the hospital. The months after giving birth were he left me at home alone with 3 kids, the countless sleepless nights and busy mornings with my other 2 children where he never once offered to help. The list goes on.

It's really eating me up inside. And just when i think that i've let it all go, it comes back with full force. Every little bit of detail.


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## thefam

If he won't go to counseling maybe he would consider a marriage encounter weekend or a marriage retreat?


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Lila said:


> Here's a suggestion that might help break the ice with the conversation.
> 100 questions to ask people
> 
> There are several websites with similar style, some sillier than others, that can help open him up to conversation. i.e. "If you could learn one random skill, what would you learn?"


Thats a good start. I think I'll try this tonight.


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## meson

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> We do all these things. My kids sleep at 8. He comes at 9. We stay together till 12. Someimes we watch a movie, sometimes we go on a date. But we still can't get through to each other.


I agree with yeswecan that you don't spend enough quality time together. You need to do something that will provide things to talk about. I suggest trying to find an interest that you both share and do that as a hobby together. Or perhaps you can find a way to merge two separate interests you each have. You mentioned you like to dance and that he like photography. I don't know what kind of dance you like but I know my daughter has used photography to help her with her dance moves to get her technique correct. 

I have a hobby that takes a lot of time that my wife won't participate in and we found a way to merge them as well. I like to climb and she can't because of the height issue. So she will frequently go on a trip but stay at camp and fix dinner with a Dutch oven for me and my partner when we are done. She really enjoys camping so this is a win win for us.

Another thing we did was to start backpacking. I had done it a few times and she had done it a couple of times before. We started to really learn it as a hobby together and with our kids. That gave us plenty to talk about and increased the quality time we spent together. Last summer we did a 93 mile trek and had a great time. 

Be creative and find something that overlaps between the both of you and make time for it.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Hicks said:


> I think what's being pointed out is you talk about problems that have existed forever in your relationship, but for some reason you plowed ahead with marriage and even further ahead in having one child then having a second child.
> 
> Now that you have created children, you have more of an obligation to make things work.
> 
> And the main thing you can do is meet his emotional needs which you say you know, and don't stop after 2 days. Do it without expectation that he is supposed to do anything for a few months and see if his behavior starts changing.


My first 2 kids were planned. The third wasn't. I was on birth control when i got pregnant. 
Anyway, i would never leave my husband. I know deep down that I love him. And I know that he does too. I never imagine my self with any other man. But i just came to the point where i accept that all marriages are like that.

I really try to meet his emotional needs, but i feel that I'm faking it. He tells me that he doesn't believe me even when i do it. Do i keep on doing these things even though he tells me he doesnt feel it?


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## meson

Lila said:


> Here's a suggestion that might help break the ice with the conversation.
> 100 questions to ask people
> 
> There are several websites with similar style, some sillier than others, that can help open him up to conversation. i.e. "If you could learn one random skill, what would you learn?"


This is a good idea! It's all about the conversation. Does your husband read? Sometimes I will talk to my wife about something she is reading and follow it from discussion with her on it. I do this with books I'm interested in but wouldn't read. Another thing to try is to get him to explain some photography techniques to you. Such as how to creat satin water photos or using flash with outdoor scenes towards the end of the day. I have a friend at work that I talk about this kind of stuff with even though I'm not really that interested in photography. 

Another thing we do for conversation is to pick apart a movie we are watching or to continue and develop ideas from the movie that inspire us. A recent discussion we had in this vein was that we noticed a trend in parents who had problem children but the interaction with the parents was devoid of validation and support. We do these things so that we engage our minds and with ourselves when watching tv or movies.


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## Mr.Fisty

Have you tried doing something new. Like learning to ride a motorcycle, going on a rollercoaster together, taking cooking classes together, sky diving, underwater diving, or go somewhere new. All it can take is a spark, and the advantage of doing something new is that it will open up dialogue. The rush of excitement, and the bond of experiencing something together should help create a bonding experience. When your acting like a new couple, it should help deal with past resentment. You both will be more willing to listen to each other.

Another idea of mine is going somewhere breath takingly beautiful, and enjoying the beauty around. Like making love under a moonbow on a clear starry night. Sometimes atmosphere affects our mood.


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## Anon1111

I've been in a marriage similar to yours in some ways. I'm the husband. Wife is SAHM. I used to work insane hrs. We had no connection, sex dried up. Went to counseling for 2 yrs, no changes. Finally, I switched jobs and took a pay cut so I could work less. We downsized our lifestyle. Things are still rocky, but I think this is a better path. If you are not happy, I think one of you needs to start changing something. Otherwise it will only get worse. Ask him to think about changes the two of you can make together. If he won't change, then think about what you can do alone to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

It sounds like NEITHER ONE of you is truly interested in meeting the other's needs. You claim neither of you wants to "change" in order to do so, so how in the world do you expect to have a successful marriage?? Do you both really value your partner SO LITTLE that what they need just doesnt matter? But yet you are just going to stay and be miserable... thats a terrible home life for your kids, as well as being an awful example to them of what marriage should be.


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## jorgegene

"I know deep down that I love him."

this is the key to everything. 

this is salvageable. hang on to this, and go back to it.

every marriage hits it's rocky points. some worse than others, but love is the key.


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## Hicks

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> My first 2 kids were planned. The third wasn't. I was on birth control when i got pregnant.
> Anyway, i would never leave my husband. I know deep down that I love him. And I know that he does too. I never imagine my self with any other man. But i just came to the point where i accept that all marriages are like that.
> 
> I really try to meet his emotional needs, but i feel that I'm faking it. He tells me that he doesn't believe me even when i do it. Do i keep on doing these things even though he tells me he doesnt feel it?


Did I say try?
You do it or you don't. What do you mean you are faking it? It is something one does. Either you are doing it or you are not doing it. And if you are not doing it you will not have a good marriage.

If you are referring to the fact that you don't feel like doing what must be done, you have to stop your feelings from doing this is you would like an improved marriage.


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## MachoMcCoy

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I don't really understand why you're being so aggressive.


Sorry. Women emotionally leaving a marriage they were never really "in" then blaming the husband hits a sore spot for me. You got your security but no love. Bummer for you. Even more so for him.

Go ahead, fight to the bitter end. Just make sure you give him enough time to start over again when...er, um...IF it doesn't work out. 

You think this is bad for YOU? Wait until he finds out you've already walked (emotionally). The ride is just starting for him.

NOTE: I can GUARANTEE he has no idea how far you are gone. You THINK he knows because you've "talked". Read the hundreds of posts where men were "BLINDSIDED" when they found out even though the wife talked and talked about it until she was "blue in the face". 

Make sure he knows. He needs to start recovery. (Another reason it is so "fun": he will need to mourn the loss of his marriage just when the ONE PERSON he can count on for support is at the "whew, glad THAT'S over" phase. 

These types of problems don't get fixed too often. Especially when one spouse has one foot out the door already.


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## Fozzy

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> The strange thing is that we both know what the other wants. We talked a lot throughout our relationship about that. We know them by heart. After every conversation things get better for 2 days and then we're back to the same point. It's like we're acting and forcing ourselves to change. It's so fake that we both just stop. *When i tell him love him, I don't really meant it*. When he says it to me, i don't feel it. I suggested going to a marriage counselor but he refused it profusely.


Don't say it if you don't mean it. If you finally get to the point where it's no longer worth the trouble of faking it, he'll be wondering why you suddenly fell out of love with him overnight, because you've been saying "I love you" every day up until then.


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## BradWesley

MachoMcCoy said:


> Sorry. Women emotionally leaving a marriage they were never really "in" then blaming the husband hits a sore spot for me. You got your security but no love. Bummer for you. Even more so for him.
> 
> Go ahead, fight to the bitter end. Just make sure you give him enough time to start over again when...er, um...IF it doesn't work out.
> 
> You think this is bad for YOU? Wait until he finds out you've already walked (emotionally). The ride is just starting for him.
> 
> NOTE: I can GUARANTEE he has no idea how far you are gone. You THINK he knows because you've "talked". Read the hundreds of posts where men were "BLINDSIDED" when they found out even though the wife talked and talked about it until she was "blue in the face".
> 
> Make sure he knows. He needs to start recovery. (Another reason it is so "fun": he will need to mourn the loss of his marriage just when the ONE PERSON he can count on for support is at the "whew, glad THAT'S over" phase.
> 
> These types of problems don't get fixed too often. Especially when one spouse has one foot out the door already.


Where do you get off laying the blame on her shoulders. Have you read the entire thread?

Your bitterness has blinded you so much, that you can't see the forest for the trees.


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## sinnister

I'm one of the worst people on this forum to ask marriage advice of, but here it is anyways:

You get what you put in. And if you're consistently putting in more than you're getting you have to make a drastic change and a major decision.


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## Roselyn

Get a part-time job; maybe 10 hours a week or less. Getting a part-time job will be great for your mental state as you will interact with others. Working out is good for your physical state. Work on your social skills so that you can be a friend to your husband. Don't count on him to return any favors, be a genuine friend.

I am 56 years old and work very long hours; sometimes longer hours than your husband's time frame. I'm married ongoing 35 years. I have a career as a university professor, author, and fashion designer. Our marriage is first time marriage for both of us and first time serious relationship. We are day and night in our personalities and outlook in life. We met in college. It seems so long ago and we both have changed since that time.

I can only speak for myself and not for others. There are many, many challenges in a marriage. You need to be a friend to yourself so that you can be a friend to your husband. He likes photography, venture hobbies into this area. It may sound silly to others, but scrap booking is a fun hobby especially if you have children and pets. This hobby can be done electronically or via physical scrapbooks. Be creative. Share your creations with your husband and children. The world is full of wonders just waiting for you to explore. I wish you the very best and keep posting.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

meson said:


> This is a good idea! It's all about the conversation. Does your husband read? Sometimes I will talk to my wife about something she is reading and follow it from discussion with her on it. I do this with books I'm interested in but wouldn't read. Another thing to try is to get him to explain some photography techniques to you. Such as how to creat satin water photos or using flash with outdoor scenes towards the end of the day. I have a friend at work that I talk about this kind of stuff with even though I'm not really that interested in photography.
> 
> Another thing we do for conversation is to pick apart a movie we are watching or to continue and develop ideas from the movie that inspire us. A recent discussion we had in this vein was that we noticed a trend in parents who had problem children but the interaction with the parents was devoid of validation and support. We do these things so that we engage our minds and with ourselves when watching tv or movies.


Wow! These are really great ideas. When we do watch a movie we just there and watch. No real interaction with each other. I'll try opening up a discussion and see how this goes.

You know, i really tried getting involved in this photography hobby of his as it takes up loads and loads of his time, but I honestly find it so boring. As silly as it sounds but sometimes it feels like he's somehow replacing me with it. He doesn't read too.I love reading. Long ago i begged him to read a book that i really liked and Felt would benefit our relationship immensely. He just ignored it and said he had no time. So i highlighted the parts that I wanted him to read. He still had no time to read it. So i wrote down the important parts and sent it to his email. I begged him to read it. A few days later I asked him if he read them and he said that he didn't really read them because they're just too long. So as you can imaging, i gave up after that.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

3Xnocharm said:


> It sounds like NEITHER ONE of you is truly interested in meeting the other's needs. You claim neither of you wants to "change" in order to do so, so how in the world do you expect to have a successful marriage?? Do you both really value your partner SO LITTLE that what they need just doesnt matter? But yet you are just going to stay and be miserable... thats a terrible home life for your kids, as well as being an awful example to them of what marriage should be.


If I wasn't really interested in meeting his needs, I wouldn't have spent countless hours on the internet reading on how to improve my marriage. I wouldn't be here asking for help. I really want to change. 

And no, honestly I Dont see my life as miserable. We have great kids. We both love them to the moon and back. We have a nice house. We have a great family. We trust each other. We both know we won't leave each other no matter what. We dont't fight. It's not like our kids are missing out on anything. It's just that theres no real connection now. Our emotions are "dry". We sleep next to each other but we're both not "there". It really is a strange feeling.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Hicks said:


> Did I say try?
> You do it or you don't. What do you mean you are faking it? It is something one does. Either you are doing it or you are not doing it. And if you are not doing it you will not have a good marriage.
> 
> If you are referring to the fact that you don't feel like doing what must be done, you have to stop your feelings from doing this is you would like an improved marriage.


I mean when i try to tell him "I love you" , i say it, but i dont feel it. When i hug him, i don't' feel he's "there". We stopped kissing a long time ago. When we kiss I feel nothing. Thinking about it now, when we're kissing or having sex all I seem to think about are the disappointments I've had from him. I know that the moment we stop he's going to run away to his hobbies. I don't know if I'm making sense. It feels like there are walls between us. An awful lot of them.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening MnMyGirl
Things sound bad, but not hopeless. It sounds like you both recognize that there is a big problem and both would like to find a way to fix it.

I think the most important is to try to find something that you enjoy doing together. Try to spend time enjoying each other, rather than it feeling like a sort of business arrangement where you are both doing chores. This may take some discussion but there are lots of options:hiking, dancing, music (playing or listening). It can even be something passive - watching all the Dr Who episodes while sitting together on the sofa.

Counseling is not a bad idea. You need to "reset" your marriage - you each have resentment and you need to somehow clear that out and start fresh. 

Sex is a different problem and also really tough. Its difficult when the sexual interests of a couple are very different. This is all to common, and really tough to fix in a way that both are happy.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

MachoMcCoy said:


> Sorry. Women emotionally leaving a marriage they were never really "in" then blaming the husband hits a sore spot for me. You got your security but no love. Bummer for you. Even more so for him.
> 
> Go ahead, fight to the bitter end. Just make sure you give him enough time to start over again when...er, um...IF it doesn't work out.
> 
> You think this is bad for YOU? Wait until he finds out you've already walked (emotionally). The ride is just starting for him.
> 
> NOTE: I can GUARANTEE he has no idea how far you are gone. You THINK he knows because you've "talked". Read the hundreds of posts where men were "BLINDSIDED" when they found out even though the wife talked and talked about it until she was "blue in the face".
> 
> Make sure he knows. He needs to start recovery. (Another reason it is so "fun": he will need to mourn the loss of his marriage just when the ONE PERSON he can count on for support is at the "whew, glad THAT'S over" phase.
> 
> These types of problems don't get fixed too often. Especially when one spouse has one foot out the door already.


First of all you're assuming that i'm not into my husband and that he's all over me. What I'm feeling is mutual. He even admitted it to me. He told me that he's not happy with the way things are. He no longer feels me and he has no idea how to break the ice.

Again you're assuming that I have my security and he doesn't. He is as secure in this relationship as I am. Yes he provides the money, but he knows very well that having this financial security is not something that i can't live without. I have a high college degree,I am a smart person, and I could easily work and support myself. I might not bring in the same amount of money that he does, but it will be enough for me to support myself. This is definately NOT why I'm staying. Actually I don't work because this is his request. But we finally reached an agreement that he's ok with me finding a job.

And again, i don't know where in my posts did I ever imply that i want to walk away from my marriage and reach the "whew, glad THATS over phase" ??


----------



## Hicks

You will feel loved and happy if he meets your emotional needs. He is not meeting them currently so you have no feelings of love for your husband. This will never change until he starts meeting your emtional needs.

Now, why does he not meet them?
Theory 1 - he does not know what they are, but wants to meet them. This does not sound like your problem.

Theory 2 - he is not getting his needs met by you so feels no motivation to meet your needs. This is a very common problem.

Theory 3 - he has a character flaw in that he knows what your needs are, is getting his needs met by you and chooses not to meet your needs. This is not fixable.

You have to determine if your marriage is theory 2 or theory 3. The way you find this out is to meet his needs to see if he become motivated to meet yours.

Therefore your feelings are not part of the solution at this moment.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

MachoMcCoy said:


> Sorry. Women emotionally leaving a marriage they were never really "in" then blaming the husband hits a sore spot for me. You got your security but no love. Bummer for you. Even more so for him.
> 
> Go ahead, fight to the bitter end. Just make sure you give him enough time to start over again when...er, um...IF it doesn't work out.
> 
> You think this is bad for YOU? Wait until he finds out you've already walked (emotionally). The ride is just starting for him.
> 
> NOTE: I can GUARANTEE he has no idea how far you are gone. You THINK he knows because you've "talked". Read the hundreds of posts where men were "BLINDSIDED" when they found out even though the wife talked and talked about it until she was "blue in the face".
> 
> Make sure he knows. He needs to start recovery. (Another reason it is so "fun": he will need to mourn the loss of his marriage just when the ONE PERSON he can count on for support is at the "whew, glad THAT'S over" phase.
> 
> These types of problems don't get fixed too often. Especially when one spouse has one foot out the door already.


On a side note, what do you suggest that these women -who talked and talked about how unhappy they are in their marriage until they are blue in the face- do to get through to their husbands?? Point a gun to their heads and tell them They're so unhappy that they'll shoot them?


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## sinnister

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I mean when i try to tell him "I love you" , i say it, but i dont feel it. When i hug him, i don't' feel he's "there". We stopped kissing a long time ago. When we kiss I feel nothing. Thinking about it now, when we're kissing or having sex all I seem to think about are the disappointments I've had from him. I know that the moment we stop he's going to run away to his hobbies. I don't know if I'm making sense. It feels like there are walls between us. An awful lot of them.


You can't really be an objective opinion since you're right in the middle of this, but I'll tell you right now this seems a lot more dire than you're making it out to be.

In my experience a man can deal with built up resentment in a marriage far more easily than a woman. Women hold on to ish until it completely infects whatever love they have for their partners. Unless....they deal with it effectively before hand.

You sound like you didn't. You sound like you allowed him to have his hobbies to the detriment of your relationship. Hobbies are good, but spending all free time away from your partner results in the feelings - or lack there of - you have for your husband.

I'd be willing to bet if he could read the stories on this forum after doing a search for "walk away wife" he'd be pretty quick to change his ways.

When a person starts thinking they love their partner but they aren't "in love" with them it's usually too late. Well actually, its usually that they are already banging somebody else but I get the sense that's not the issue in this case.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Hicks said:


> You will feel loved and happy if he meets your emotional needs. He is not meeting them currently so you have no feelings of love for your husband. This will never change until he starts meeting your emtional needs.
> 
> Now, why does he not meet them?
> Theory 1 - he does not know what they are, but wants to meet them. This does not sound like your problem.
> 
> Theory 2 - he is not getting his needs met by you so feels no motivation to meet your needs. This is a very common problem.
> 
> Theory 3 - he has a character flaw in that he knows what your needs are, is getting his needs met by you and chooses not to meet your needs. This is not fixable.
> 
> You have to determine if your marriage is theory 2 or theory 3. The way you find this out is to meet his needs to see if he become motivated to meet yours.
> 
> Therefore your feelings are not part of the solution at this moment.


As I understand the situation, its a mix between theory 1 and 2. Yes we talked and talked about what exactly I want from him, but in all honesty I really dont feel he really understands what am saying or how deep these things affect me. I feel that just because these things don't really matter to him, he doesn't believe how essential they are to me. As hard as i tried to explain, and as much as I tried to point it out in books and articles that I read, he still doesn't get it.

This along with theory number 2 as He always tell me That he is a very simple guy. That all he needs from me is to admire him, love him and motivate him. He just doesn't understand that for me to do these things I need him to satisfy me emotionally too. He thinks he does, but he is far away from actually doing this. It's a vicious cycle really. We honestly don't know how to break it.


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## nuclearnightmare

OP:

not to brag but never has a response to one of these threads started with the words I'm about to start with)

_I am not an expert on Rabies_. but from what I understand if a person is bit my an infected animal, and the animal cannot be located, then the only treatment left is one that involves 10-14 shots to the person's abdomen. i.e. the one and only thing left to save their life is painful, intimidating.

I think your marriage is infected enough with bad emotions that contemplating any treatment other than MC would be kidding yourselves. som people dread starting MC but serious problems require serious solutions. you need to work with a professional and objective observer that can assess how far gone your relationship is, can hold both of you accountable for habits or attitudes that undermine it and that can guide you toward bringing back real love into the marriage. I think you need to insist your H start MC with you. if he can't be moved to make that sacrifice to save the M then you should find that very enlightening in terms of deciding your next move.

you do have to find a *good* MC, however. easier said than done, but it can be done.


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## jaquen

Are ALL marriages like this? Nope. 

Are a great deal of marriages like this? Absolutely.

You're not in any rare company, if that makes you feel better. 

But know that you're also not immune to positive change as long as both of you still believe in the power of improvement and are willing to put forth effort to change yourselves (because neither of you can change the other. If you still believe that lie, stop immediately).


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## Me'N'My'Girl

sinnister said:


> You can't really be an objective opinion since you're right in the middle of this, but I'll tell you right now this seems a lot more dire than you're making it out to be.
> 
> In my experience a man can deal with built up resentment in a marriage far more easily than a woman. Women hold on to ish until it completely infects whatever love they have for their partners. Unless....they deal with it effectively before hand.
> 
> You sound like you didn't. You sound like you allowed him to have his hobbies to the detriment of your relationship. Hobbies are good, but spending all free time away from your partner results in the feelings - or lack there of - you have for your husband.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet if he could read the stories on this forum after doing a search for "walk away wife" he'd be pretty quick to change his ways.
> 
> When a person starts thinking they love their partner but they aren't "in love" with them it's usually too late. Well actually, its usually that they are already banging somebody else but I get the sense that's not the issue in this case.


Thank you for this post. This is a topic of controversy between me and my husband. He says that he is such a simple guy. That he doesn't hold onto past resentments. But this is not true. Because when we talk I see him bringing up resentments from years and years ago, just like I do. But he did tell me that he tries not to think about these things and kind of hides it in the back of his mind. But they do come up when we're in a rough spot.

I, on the other hand, just can't seem to forget them. They are constantly on my mind. Maybe because there are loads and loads of them and they keep on Happening and happening.

If we were to talk with a counselor I could bring up hundreds of situations where he let me down. And he admits to all of them and always says I'm sorry, i don't know how i did that. But he never learns from his mistakes. He keeps them coming and coming. But if he were to talk about our problems he could never give me situations were I let him down, he just says that he doesn't feel that I love him and admire him enough. It's all so vague. I ask him to be more precise and he repeats the same thing over and over again.

I pointed him to this site countless times. I begged him that we both get to read and discuss together what we learn from here. I pointed him to specific threads which i felt applied to our life, and not ONCE did he take the time to even look at it.

And trust me, I'm not trying to paint him out as the bad guy. He is a good guy otherwise. I have my flaws too. But I'm a bit hopeless now.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

nuclearnightmare said:


> OP:
> 
> not to brag but never has a response to one of these threads started with the words I'm about to start with)
> 
> _I am not an expert on Rabies_. but from what I understand if a person is bit my an infected animal, and the animal cannot be located, then the only treatment left is one that involves 10-14 shots to the person's abdomen. i.e. the one and only thing left to save their life is painful, intimidating.
> 
> I think your marriage is infected enough with bad emotions that contemplating any treatment other than MC would be kidding yourselves. som people dread starting MC but serious problems require serious solutions. you need to work with a professional and objective observer that can assess how far gone your relationship is, can hold both of you accountable for habits or attitudes that undermine it and that can guide you toward bringing back real love into the marriage. I think you need to insist your H start MC with you. if he can't be moved to make that sacrifice to save the M then you should find that very enlightening in terms of deciding your next move.
> 
> you do have to find a *good* MC, however. easier said than done, but it can be done.


Your post had me in tears. Yes, i think our marriage is much more infected than I try to make myself believe. I'll never leave my husband physically, but I'm very close to leaving him emotionally, forever. I'm holding on by a thread. But I'm awfully scared that this thread won't make it much longer.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Fozzy said:


> Don't say it if you don't mean it. If you finally get to the point where it's no longer worth the trouble of faking it, he'll be wondering why you suddenly fell out of love with him overnight, because you've been saying "I love you" every day up until then.


I stopped saying it completely. I can't lie to myself any longer. And i told him this.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

To make things clear, there is no other guy in my life. I'm not checking out other guys and I'm certainly not making excuses to go find other guys. I want my marriage and I want my husband.


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## jorgegene

I'm of the mind that telling a person you love them when you're not feeling it is not a bad thing.

let me explain: there is a time for serious talk such as "honey, we need to talk. i'm having serious issues with our relationship and have a bad case of the blah's", et. but there a lot of times in between where there isn't time for a long serious talk.

if we are in a committed relationship for the long haul with absolutely NO INTENTION of leaving, then we need to tell one another we love them even when we're not 'feeling' it.
why? because feelings are fickle and come and go, while relationship are not. they go far beyond feelings.

my mom once told me a few years back (after 55 years of marriage to my dad); "i sometimes don't like your father, but i will always love him!" see? they've had a stormy marriage. my mom has always been moody. she's a difficult person. my grandma warned my dad about her. she sometimes doesn't even like my dad. he can be real annoying, and their personalities clash often. but she will always love him for the man he is, and tells him so.

love is about way more than feelings.

i remind myself about what my mom said constantly. i send my wife love notes even when i'm a bit irritated and feeling a bit blah.


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## nuclearnightmare

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Your post had me in tears. Yes, i think our marriage is much more infected than I try to make myself believe. I'll never leave my husband physically, but I'm very close to leaving him emotionally, forever. I'm holding on by a thread. But I'm awfully scared that this thread won't make it much longer.


Me'n'My --

go find a good MC yourself. tell your H what you are doing. once you find a good counselor, assuming your H isstill resisting, it might have to start off just you going.......previewing the problems, your fears for the future etc. i.e. don't ask for permission just get the ball rolling......


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## Me'N'My'Girl

jorgegene said:


> I'm of the mind that telling a person you love them when you're not feeling it is not a bad thing.
> 
> let me explain: there is a time for serious talk such as "honey, we need to talk. i'm having serious issues with our relationship and have a bad case of the blah's", et. but there a lot of times in between where there isn't time for a long serious talk.
> 
> if we are in a committed relationship for the long haul with absolutely NO INTENTION of leaving, then we need to tell one another we love them even when we're not 'feeling' it.
> why? because feelings are fickle and come and go, while relationship are not. they go far beyond feelings.
> 
> my mom once told me a few years back (after 55 years of marriage to my dad); "i sometimes don't like your father, but i will always love him!" see? they've had a stormy marriage. my mom has always been moody. she's a difficult person. my grandma warned my dad about her. she sometimes doesn't even like my dad. he can be real annoying, and their personalities clash often. but she will always love him for the man he is, and tells him so.
> 
> love is about way more than feelings.
> 
> i remind myself about what my mom said constantly. i send my wife love notes even when i'm a bit irritated and feeling a bit blah.


I get where you're coming from, but sometimes saying it when you don't actually mean it gives the other partner a false sense of security that things are going well in the marriage when they clearly are not.


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## jorgegene

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I get where you're coming from, but sometimes saying it when you don't actually mean it gives the other partner a false sense of security that things are going well in the marriage when they clearly are not.


that's the difference. there is no possibility of a false sense of security if you mean it. not if you feel it, but if you mean it.

there is a time and place to discuss those 'false senses of securities', and there is a time and place often, to say 'i love you know matter what'.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

jorgegene said:


> that's the difference. there is no possibility of a false sense of security if you mean it. not if you feel it, but if you mean it.
> 
> there is a time and place to discuss those 'false senses of securities', and there is a time and place often, to say 'i love you know matter what'.


Oh well, now I get what you mean. I do tell my husband that even though things are not going well between us, but I know that i want to spend my life with you and that I'll never walk away from the marriage. But i stopped the daily I love yous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Oh well, now I get what you mean. I do tell my husband that even though things are not going well between us, but I know that i want to spend my life with you and that I'll never walk away from the marriage. But i stopped the daily I love yous.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All you have done by telling him this is that its OKAY for him to continue acting the way he is, because no matter what he does, you arent going to do anything about it. You are reinforcing the negative behavior.


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## sinnister

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Your post had me in tears. Yes, i think our marriage is much more infected than I try to make myself believe. I'll never leave my husband physically, but I'm very close to leaving him emotionally, forever. I'm holding on by a thread. But I'm awfully scared that this thread won't make it much longer.


Please try one last time to make him see. Please.

I'm willing to bet he feels you pulling away but has no idea you have one foot out the door. You're a couple of weeks away from waking up one day and saying "why?"

If he can prevent that...please give him one last shot. I don't know you from a hole in the wall but I'm betting you're a pretty cool wife to be scouring the internet looking for ways to save it despite him not trying. Give him another shot to keep you.


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## MachoMcCoy

BradWesley said:


> Where do you get off laying the blame on her shoulders. Have you read the entire thread?





Me'N'My'Girl said:


> My husband was never my friend.


----------



## BradWesley

Macho McCoy

This is your best answer?

They are both guilty of mistakes, and it was wrong to put it all on her.

His biggest mistake is refusing to get professional help


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## wmn1

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Thanks for taking the time to reply. We actually did this emotional needs questionaire at some point, but we couldn't really implement it.
> 
> The thing is we started hiring a nanny to stay with the kids and we'd go out on a date. But really theres nothing to talk about. We sit there not knowing what to say. I was never at a loss of words with anyone. But when we're together we just talk about the normal stuff. We talk a bit about his work, my day blah blah blah and then silence. I try to talk about our good memories together and try to tell him how much i love him. But it feels so fake i know it doesnt reach him. I really don't know what is happening. I honestly don't know how to fix this.


There has to be something both of you are interested in.

First, I applaud the both of you for staying loyal and taking care of family first.

You two need to find something, whether it's travel, sports, or political activities or something and start there. It's time together with a mutual cause. Then you will soon find out that there are other things.

Regarding 'vanilla sex', you need to slowly expand it. I did with an ex and she came around slowly. But you have a good situation and be patient. There are some guides out there to get this done and none of it involves cheating which is catastrophic IMO to any marriage. 

With your attitude, you'll find it and be successful


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## wmn1

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> My first 2 kids were planned. The third wasn't. I was on birth control when i got pregnant.
> Anyway, i would never leave my husband. I know deep down that I love him. And I know that he does too. I never imagine my self with any other man. But i just came to the point where i accept that all marriages are like that.
> 
> I really try to meet his emotional needs, but i feel that I'm faking it. He tells me that he doesn't believe me even when i do it. Do i keep on doing these things even though he tells me he doesnt feel it?


I love your first statement. I wish some of my friends had met someone like you. Instead they ran into wives who ran off and cheated while they were busting their arse making ends meet.

You take some tips here while being loyal and you'll have the fulfilling marriage you seek


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## wmn1

Hicks said:


> You will feel loved and happy if he meets your emotional needs. He is not meeting them currently so you have no feelings of love for your husband. This will never change until he starts meeting your emtional needs.
> 
> Now, why does he not meet them?
> Theory 1 - he does not know what they are, but wants to meet them. This does not sound like your problem.
> 
> Theory 2 - he is not getting his needs met by you so feels no motivation to meet your needs. This is a very common problem.
> 
> Theory 3 - he has a character flaw in that he knows what your needs are, is getting his needs met by you and chooses not to meet your needs. This is not fixable.
> 
> You have to determine if your marriage is theory 2 or theory 3. The way you find this out is to meet his needs to see if he become motivated to meet yours.
> 
> Therefore your feelings are not part of the solution at this moment.



Maybe the 15 hour work days are killing his spirit and that could be a factor as well.

If she gets a job, maybe he can scale back a little, de-stress some and things will get better


----------



## wmn1

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> To make things clear, there is no other guy in my life. I'm not checking out other guys and I'm certainly not making excuses to go find other guys. I want my marriage and I want my husband.



this I like and it separates you from so many others


----------



## Yeswecan

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> We do all these things. My kids sleep at 8. He comes at 9. We stay together till 12. Someimes we watch a movie, sometimes we go on a date. But we still can't get through to each other.


It appears much hurt has been created for both in your past. The hurt rug swept and never addressed. It has snowballed. If you cannot be honest with each other and open up to the true feelings this slowly festering marriage will never reach its full potential and fulfillment. 

It takes both in this communication to drop the wall and be honest about the past unresolved hurt. The resentment feels obvious to me. I also sense no appreciation for each other and the roles each take within the marriage. 

I think MC in a neutral safe setting is a good place to start.


----------



## Revamped

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Thank you for this post. This is a topic of controversy between me and my husband. He says that he is such a simple guy. That he doesn't hold onto past resentments. But this is not true. Because when we talk I see him bringing up resentments from years and years ago, just like I do. But he did tell me that he tries not to think about these things and kind of hides it in the back of his mind. But they do come up when we're in a rough spot.
> 
> I, on the other hand, just can't seem to forget them. They are constantly on my mind. Maybe because there are loads and loads of them and they keep on Happening and happening.
> 
> If we were to talk with a counselor I could bring up hundreds of situations where he let me down. And he admits to all of them and always says I'm sorry, i don't know how i did that. But he never learns from his mistakes. He keeps them coming and coming. But if he were to talk about our problems he could never give me situations were I let him down, he just says that he doesn't feel that I love him and admire him enough. It's all so vague. I ask him to be more precise and he repeats the same thing over and over again.
> 
> I pointed him to this site countless times. I begged him that we both get to read and discuss together what we learn from here. I pointed him to specific threads which i felt applied to our life, and not ONCE did he take the time to even look at it.
> 
> And trust me, I'm not trying to paint him out as the bad guy. He is a good guy otherwise. I have my flaws too. But I'm a bit hopeless now.


This post got me the most. It's all about who does what for whom, but never any actual validation.

If someone repeats themselves it's because you're not hearing the answer. Take the time to say, yea hon, you're right.

You keep pushing him to read, when you KNOW he isn't into the written word. You can state a 1000 things he's apologized for yet never accepted his apology. You INSIST that HE learns yet don't learn anything different yourself.

If you want a clean slate, then wipe everything you know to be Truth away. Start again. With new eyes, boundaries and expectations.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

3Xnocharm said:


> All you have done by telling him this is that its OKAY for him to continue acting the way he is, because no matter what he does, you arent going to do anything about it. You are reinforcing the negative behavior.


You see, what I'm really trying to do -which I might be doing incorrectly- is have a balance between complaining about how unhappy things are for us and assuring him that I really want this marriage. So yes, i might be re-inforcing negative behaviour unwittingly.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

sinnister said:


> Please try one last time to make him see. Please.
> 
> I'm willing to bet he feels you pulling away but has no idea you have one foot out the door. You're a couple of weeks away from waking up one day and saying "why?"
> 
> If he can prevent that...please give him one last shot. I don't know you from a hole in the wall but I'm betting you're a pretty cool wife to be scouring the internet looking for ways to save it despite him not trying. Give him another shot to keep you.


This is why I'm here. I tried every trick in the book that I know of, but it clearly didn't work. I could do with some outside help. I don't know why he is so against marriage counseling. He tells me why would I go to a complete stranger and open up to every little detail about my life. He has always struggled with words I think. He's not the guy to talk about his feelings. He actually told me yesterday after a discussion sprung up about his friend that never in his life has he opened up completely to anyone, not even me. That there are things that should be kept to oneself. That he doesn't see the need to talk about every little bit of detail. It was disappointing to actually hear that, but it's not like its something i didnt actually know.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

sinnister said:


> I'm willing to bet he feels you pulling away but has no idea you have one foot out the door. You're a couple of weeks away from waking up one day and saying "why?"





Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I tried every trick in the book that I know of, but it clearly didn't work. I could do with some outside help.


Make sure he KNOWS you have one foot out the door (he doesn't right now). That will wake him up. I have NEVER been more sure of anything in my life.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

wmn1 said:


> Maybe the 15 hour work days are killing his spirit and that could be a factor as well.
> 
> If she gets a job, maybe he can scale back a little, de-stress some and things will get better


I know that the long working hours are really difficult. I make sure that I always tell him how much I appreciate what he's doing. But he loves his job. There is no way that he'd de-scale. He reached a high point in the heirarchy and I doubt he'll back down now after all the efforts he put in his job to make it work. 

I really want to take a job. Before that, he was so opposed to me working. He wants a stable life for the kids and he wants me to be always there for them because he can't. And also he is the very jealous type. He knows that when I work i'll be exposed to a lot of men. And as I said before I am a very outgoing person. He doesn't like that and says men take it the wrong way. So the way I see it, this is the REAL reason for him not wanting me to work. We talked about his jealousy issues a lot. I always tell him that it really hurts me to think that my husband doesn't trust me. He always said that he trusts me or else he would NEVER stay with me, but he doesn't trust other guys and he doesn't stand the idea that another man is thinking of me. Anyway, i never really understood what this means. I put it down to it being a man thing maybe? Because to me what matters is what my husband does. I don't care if other women like my husband. Actually it's flattering to know that other women check him out. What matters to me is what HE does. We've had endless talks about it being demeaning to me and that it feels like he doesn't trust me, but he says thats the way he is.

But seeing the way things have become now, we reached an agreement that it may be best for me to start working. I am looking for a job.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

wmn1 said:


> Regarding 'vanilla sex', you need to slowly expand it. I did with an ex and she came around slowly. But you have a good situation and be patient. There are some guides out there to get this done and none of it involves cheating which is catastrophic IMO to any marriage.
> 
> With your attitude, you'll find it and be successful


The funny thing is, as the years passed, he is no longer into the vanilla sex. But our problem now is not the difference in sexual needs, the problem is much bigger than that. We can't get ourselves to have sex together. When we do, it's so quick. Theres no forplay, no kissing, no afterplay. Nothing. 

"Sometimes at work i feel that I'm dying to have you. But the moment we get together it's like there are huge walls between us and i can no longer approach you. I can't make myself do it." His words.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Yeswecan said:


> It appears much hurt has been created for both in your past. The hurt rug swept and never addressed. It has snowballed. If you cannot be honest with each other and open up to the true feelings this slowly festering marriage will never reach its full potential and fulfillment.
> 
> It takes both in this communication to drop the wall and be honest about the past unresolved hurt. The resentment feels obvious to me. I also sense no appreciation for each other and the roles each take within the marriage.
> 
> I think MC in a neutral safe setting is a good place to start.


We are trying our best to communicate and talk , talk and talk some more. But unfortunately,lately this is as far as we get. I really wish he would agree to MC. This is my best bet now. I really wish he'd comply.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Revamped said:


> This post got me the most. It's all about who does what for whom, but never any actual validation.
> 
> If someone repeats themselves it's because you're not hearing the answer. Take the time to say, yea hon, you're right.
> 
> You keep pushing him to read, when you KNOW he isn't into the written word. You can state a 1000 things he's apologized for yet never accepted his apology. You INSIST that HE learns yet don't learn anything different yourself.
> 
> If you want a clean slate, then wipe everything you know to be Truth away. Start again. With new eyes, boundaries and expectations.


As i said that was years ago. I stopped pushing it down his throat. I never ask him to read anything anymore.

Believe me. Please believe me. I WANT to wipe everything way. I NEED too. I just don't know how. I really don't. I promise I'm trying. I'm trying so hard and just when I think that I'm starting to forget I remember every little thing. Every little detail. 

Yes, i never accepted his apology. You know why? Because I know it's not from his heart. He says I'm sorry, but deep down i KNOW he doesn't mean it. Imagine this scenario. Your friend slaps you on the face and then apologizes. He slaps you again, and then apologizes again. He slaps you over and over and over again, and he keeps apologizing over and over again. Tell me, How does this feel?


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

MachoMcCoy said:


> Make sure he KNOWS you have one foot out the door (he doesn't right now). That will wake him up. I have NEVER been more sure of anything in my life.


Ok, What more can I do? I talked. I cried. I withdrew. I had outbursts. What do you suggest I do to show him how serious this is?? If he doesn't already know that is.


----------



## Revamped

I would have stepped aside the first time he did that.

But that's just me, I guess.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

nuclearnightmare said:


> Me'n'My --
> 
> go find a good MC yourself. tell your H what you are doing. once you find a good counselor, assuming your H isstill resisting, it might have to start off just you going.......previewing the problems, your fears for the future etc. i.e. don't ask for permission just get the ball rolling......


I did go to a couselor once. But after a few sessions she told me she can't help me if he's not here with me. She needs the other side of the story. He never agreed to come. And i stopped.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Revamped said:


> I would have stepped aside the first time he did that.
> 
> But that's just me, I guess.


Well maybe I should have done that. Too late for regrets though.


----------



## Revamped

Name two regrets YOU have.

Name two regrets you THINK he has.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Revamped said:


> Name two regrets YOU have.
> Name two regrets you THINK he has.


My regrets:
1. Not standing up to him 'enough' when he ignored my emotional needs. I should have been more aggressive with my approaches i guess, took action and left instead of moaning about it.

2. Not going to individual counselling long ago to understand a lot of things about myself that i didn't know back then, but i figured out as the years passed.

His regrets:
1. I guess if he could go back in time he would choose someone who shares his hobbies and has a more positive outlook to the world. I am quite a pessimistic person. I think he would do much better with someone who couldn't care less about anything in the world. You know the ladies who just care about travelling, having a nice time and enjoying life.

2. Maybe choose a different career path. Something more creative and fun. His job is stressful.


----------



## AliceA

In regards to the boring bedroom activity, DH and I have hit points where we felt this way. It took some concerted effort to make improvements, but it was worth it. I think this is certainly something you don't have to resign yourself to.

Our worst point was when DH was playing games in most of his free time. He thought that because he waited until the kids went to bed that he was still doing his 'family duty' and after that he should be able to do what he wanted. It took a long time for me to finally get across to him that spending time doing our own thing was theoretically fine, but in reality it wasn't going to build a happy marriage. If he wanted a wife to spend his life with, he had to reconsider his priorities. Just like at the start of our marriage he gave me the choice of making physical affection a priority or he'd give up on trying, I gave him the same speech. Make spending time with me a priority, or I'd give up on trying. He's a smart man, he figured out where that would take us. We may not divorce, but we wouldn't be together, we'd just be existing in the same house. No one really wants to live that way, otherwise we wouldn't get married in the first place.

I've read, "Getting the Love You Want" by H. Hendrix. I found it very helpful. I'm not sure if you would, but it sounds like you'd prefer to find a way to improve your marriage rather than give up, so it's probably worth a shot.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Thanks breeze. Ill order the book.


----------



## Revamped

Name two accomplishments you have achieved in the past year.
Name two failures you are accountable for in the past year.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Revamped said:


> Name two accomplishments you have achieved in the past year.
> Name two failures you are accountable for in the past year.


Accomplishments:
1. I gave birth to my son, alone. I got through the horrible sleepless nights with my newborn, and made it through the looooong days with my 3 kids, alone. I always kept the house clean and always cooked decent meals. My son is 10 months old now, so i made it through the most physically draining year. I realize it might sound silly, but this year was so difficult that it is a huge accomplishment just living through it.

2. Improving my communication with my H. I constantly assure him that he can tell me anything and everything without me ever judging him or holding it against him. When we're out and about he can even point out the hot girls and we can have a laugh about it. I never get jealous and give him the evil face. I am pretty cool about it. It doesn't really bother me. Atleast it's a topic we can talk about since we struggle finding anything to talk about. What i mean is I tried my best to assure him that he can talk about anything and everything.

Failures:
1. I failed, yet again, to improve my relationship with my H.
2. I failed to change the things i hate about myself.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Ok, What more can I do? I talked. I cried. I withdrew. I had outbursts. What do you suggest I do to show him how serious this is?? If he doesn't already know that is.


Oh, he doesn't know. I can guarantee that. He knows your marriage has problems, but he doesn't know you are gone.



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> We both know we won't leave each other no matter what.


There you go. Use that. Leave him. For a month or two. But you really have to sell it. "No, I tried counseling but you weren't going there. I told you what I need but you didn't listen. No, I'm gone. I'm 29. I have a life to lead. I wanted it to be with you but it didn't work out. Sorry. Bye."

Destroy his world. Then he can rebuild it into the man he needs to be.

I have ZERO doubt that will do it.

We need to start talking about walk-away-wives (have you looked that up?). It is an epidemic but we can't even talk about it, let alone do anything about it.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Well maybe I should have done that. Too late for regrets though.


It's ALWAYS too late for regrets. That's where the name comes from. But you are 29. Not even CLOSE to too late to do something about it.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

MachoMcCoy said:


> It's ALWAYS too late for regrets. That's where the name comes from. But you are 29. Not even CLOSE to too late to do something about it.


What I meant by late is that we already created 3 kids. 3 innocent kids that we both love to pieces. I can't ever imagine just destroying their lives. I mean our life 'as a family' is a really good one. And as a couple it really isn't that bad. We don't abuse each other. We don't fight. We don't call each other names. We care about each other. We just no longer have the connection and the intimacy. I mean isn't it so selfish to destroy the kids lives and security just because we can't get the spark, intimacy and love back??


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

​


MachoMcCoy said:


> There you go. Use that. Leave him. For a month or two. But you really have to sell it. "No, I tried counseling but you weren't going there. I told you what I need but you didn't listen. No, I'm gone. I'm 29. I have a life to lead. I wanted it to be with you but it didn't work out. Sorry. Bye."
> 
> Destroy his world. Then he can rebuild it into the man he needs to be.
> 
> I have ZERO doubt that will do it.
> 
> We need to start talking about walk-away-wives (have you looked that up?). It is an epidemic but we can't even talk about it, let alone do anything about it.


Alright a question for you. Would you have preferred that your wife walked away from the marriage and told you that she gave up, over staying with you and telling you over and over again that she wants to improve the marriage? 
Cause to me it looks like you prefer the first option.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Calling the 'love experts'*



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> ​
> Alright a question for you. Would you have preferred that your wife walked away from the marriage and told you that she gave up, over staying with you and telling you over and over again that she wants to improve the marriage?
> Cause to me it looks like you prefer the first option.


Everyone will want the first option. 

The problem arises when one partner simply will not work on the relationship. Then the first option will net you nothing.

If you keep doing what you are doing, you will keep getting what you are getting. 

Ask yourself this question: are you really, truly prepared to walk away if it does not improve?


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> Everyone will want the first option.
> 
> The problem arises when one partner simply will not work on the relationship. Then the first option will net you nothing.
> 
> If you keep doing what you are doing, you will keep getting what you are getting.
> 
> Ask yourself this question: are you really, truly prepared to walk away if it does not improve?


Well, i don't think i choose the first option over the second. I'd rather my H tells me he wants to work on the marriage than just walking away and giving up. I definately was not aware that people actually prefer the first option.

Am i prepared to walk away from the marriage if things don't improve? I don't know. But, I don't think I'm ready to destroy my children's lives.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Calling the 'love experts'*



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Well, i don't think i choose the first option over the second. I'd rather my H tells me he wants to work on the marriage than just walking away and giving up. I definately was not aware that people actually prefer the first option.
> 
> Am i prepared to walk away from the marriage if things don't improve? I don't know. But, I don't think I'm ready to destroy my children's lives.


Until the thought of remaining miserable in your marriage becomes less comfortable than leaving, your situation will likely not change. 

Your husband must feel your willingness to walk away in order for him to understand the magnitude of the situation.

And until you are prepared to follow through, you will get more of the same.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> Until the thought of remaining miserable in your marriage becomes less comfortable than leaving, your situation will likely not change.
> 
> Your husband must feel your willingness to walk away in order for him to understand the magnitude of the situation.
> 
> And until you are prepared to follow through, you will get more of the same.


It's not totally off the charts. But for the time being I'm giving it more time.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> Until the thought of remaining miserable in your marriage becomes less comfortable than leaving, your situation will likely not change.
> 
> Your husband must feel your willingness to walk away in order for him to understand the magnitude of the situation.
> 
> And until you are prepared to follow through, you will get more of the same.


So what you really mean is that he'll never change UNLESS I leave? It's that hopeless?


----------



## farsidejunky

Not actually leaving per se. You need to communicate to him that you are ready to leave. The problem lies in if that does not work. What if he calls your bluff? You then have to be willing to follow through. That is what I meant by my two posts.

Hand him two business cards. One from a marriage counselor, one from a divorce attorney. Ask him which one he wants you to make an appointment with.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> Not actually leaving per se. You need to communicate to him that you are ready to leave. The problem lies in if that does not work. What if he calls your bluff? You then have to be willing to follow through. That is what I meant by my two posts.
> 
> Hand him two business cards. One from a marriage counselor, one from a divorce attorney. Ask him which one he wants you to make an appointment with.


I will work on that. I have to mean it when i actually say it. Thank you.


----------



## LongWalk

You've got some good advice here. 

Book MC. Don't hassle him about it. Tell him the time. If doesn't go, you get an IC session.

Date wise you to do physical stuff camping, wall climbing. Not the kind you are already doing.

Find something good to do that requires you work together. 

Photography can be a very introspective art. What subjects does he shoot?

Why not ask him to photograph you? Portrait, nude, cooking, playing with your children. That will force him to look at you and think about who you are to him.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> Book MC. Don't hassle him about it. Tell him the time. If doesn't go, you get an IC session.
> 
> Date wise you to do physical stuff camping, wall climbing. Not the kind you are already doing.


I started looking for a good counselor. Lets hope i find a good one.

There have been some physical activities I've always wanted to do. Maybe thats the best time to start exploring them.


----------



## sinnister

Your husband can't hear you. Sure he's listening but he doesn't hear what your saying. I get that you've tried...very hard. And you've used every approach you know of to try and mend things.

But all I can do is speak from his perspective since I'm a dude. And I'm telling you, he has NO FREAKIN CLUE how bad things really are. He speaks about walls up between you two, but he doesn't truly get the magnitude of your hopelessness.

When you start throwing around the I love him, but I'm not in love with him......it's pretty much curtains. He needs to know TODAY that if he doesn't go to councelling with you he will lose you. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but probably quite early into 2015.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

sinnister said:


> Your husband can't hear you. Sure he's listening but he doesn't hear what your saying. I get that you've tried...very hard. And you've used every approach you know of to try and mend things.
> 
> But all I can do is speak from his perspective since I'm a dude. And I'm telling you, he has NO FREAKIN CLUE how bad things really are. He speaks about walls up between you two, but he doesn't truly get the magnitude of your hopelessness.
> 
> When you start throwing around the I love him, but I'm not in love with him......it's pretty much curtains. He needs to know TODAY that if he doesn't go to councelling with you he will lose you. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but probably quite early into 2015.


Yesterday after the kids went to bed we had little talk. He's talking about making plans and travelling for a little vacation on our own. i'm starting to believe that he really doesn't understand the magnitude of our problems. As sweet as it was to hear him making plans for us, but I found myself not excited one bit.

I am definately going to schedule an appointment with a counselor. My emotions are really running dry.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> Find something good to do that requires you work together.
> 
> Photography can be a very introspective art. What subjects does he shoot?
> 
> Why not ask him to photograph you? Portrait, nude, cooking, playing with your children. That will force him to look at you and think about who you are to him.


He shoots pretty much everything but he is so into nature and city life.
He did ask me once if he could nude photograph me, but we never went along with it. He never brought it up again. The strange thing is that after all these years of us being together I suddenly find myself "shy" to pose in front of him. I really don't understand this. I was never like this. I am not ashamed of my body. I have a great figure. I workout all the time. Actually I have never been in better shape. This is something I have wondering about for some time now..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

If your husband shoots you nude, it may help you connect. Obviously it could be sensual or erotic, but more importantly, the subject of a photographer must be vulnerable and trusting. It may be a good thing for you to let go. He may look at you differently. He wants to feel masculine.

Maybe the photos will be so good he will get them into a high quality art photo magazine and win a prize. You'll be a famous naked beauty.


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Well, i don't think i choose the first option over the second. I'd rather my H tells me he wants to work on the marriage than just walking away and giving up. I definately was not aware that people actually prefer the first option.
> 
> Am i prepared to walk away from the marriage if things don't improve? I don't know. But, I don't think I'm ready to destroy my children's lives.


Tell him you're considering leaving and you'll be making up your mind by the end of the school year. Tell him explicitly what you'd need to see from him to keep you from moving out. And let him see you visiting lawyers and putting money aside and scouting locations for you and the kids.

It's the ONLY way he will ever change to be what you want.


----------



## LongWalk

You are a very level headed person. You can read your husband and the situation better than he can. But you want him to lead your marriage to a better place. The longer you harbor your resentment the more difficult it will be for him to grasp what he must do. If you have to manage his response to your needs, then you will not be satisfied.

The contradiction is that presenting the reality of how under threat your marriage is will undermine his self confidence at the time that he needs courage and self confidence.

It will be hard to do it on your own. MC has ways for couples of map out their problems and take responsibility. That is the best place to put your cards on the table. One of the most important skills that he needs to pick up is active listening. He needs to learn to hear what you are saying. He shouldn't just agree with everything you say, but he needs to grasp how and why you feel the way you do.

If he takes photos of you, won't it give you a chance to interact more thoughtfully?

It is amazing to look at old family photos. They seem to tell a story about us those things that were solid and real. The superficial and frustrating narrative can also be there but it optimistic and positive with which we identify.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> If your husband shoots you nude, it may help you connect. Obviously it could be sensual or erotic, but more importantly, the subject of a photographer must be vulnerable and trusting. It may be a good thing for you to let go. He may look at you differently. He wants to feel masculine.
> 
> Maybe the photos will be so good he will get them into a high quality art photo magazine and win a prize. You'll be a famous naked beauty.


Mmm...that would require some serious editing though 

It really is something I want to explore with him. If I could just let go, this will be really fun. About him feeling masculine, I don't really feel it matters to him all that much. I can't say my husband is a beta guy, but he is not an alpha either. He's not your typical nice guy, but he doesn't really have the good qualities of an alpha. I remember at some point in our relationship I talked to him about the differences between alphas and betas and that I would like him to be a bit more alpha, but he wasn't interested. I remember that look on his face. You know this "whatever" look.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> Tell him you're considering leaving and you'll be making up your mind by the end of the school year. Tell him explicitly what you'd need to see from him to keep you from moving out. And let him see you visiting lawyers and putting money aside and scouting locations for you and the kids.
> 
> It's the ONLY way he will ever change to be what you want.


Guess what my husband just told me?
Well, out of no where, he told me I know you hate my guts. That if you had a chance to leave , you'll leave. Sometimes I catch you looking at me and all I can see is pure hate. I know you fell out of love with me. Sometimes I wonder why you're even with me?

He really took me by surprise. And how did i react? I just stared at him, saying nothing. I don't understand how I didn't even react. I think hate is a pretty intense word, and it's definately not what i feel. Indifferent would have been more accurate. 

I'm trying to reflect on these words of his. If this is how he REALLY feels and he's not just trying to put on a show to get some reaction from me, why is he acting as if everything is fine? If he thinks I really feel this way, why is he refusing counselling? Does he really not care enough, that even though he thinks his wife hates his guts, he doesn't mind living like this?


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> You are a very level headed person. You can read your husband and the situation better than he can. But you want him to lead your marriage to a better place.


This is true. Sometimes I feel that I "overthink" about every little thing in my life. This is something I wish I could change about myself. I want to learn how to let go a little and just go with the flow. I tend to think about every little detail and calculate everything. I like having plans. I like having everything under control. I do things to perfection. My husband calls me a control freak. I don't really go overboard though. It's just that I like to feel that eveything in my life is going according to plan.

I also tend to worry so much. The 'what ifs' never stop. My husband hates this. I do too. I'll give you a small example. We could plan a nice getaway weekend for the family in two weeks. I get excited, but i start worrying about everything. What if the kids get sick, how will we enjoy? What if the place we're going is not fun for the kids? What if we didn't like it? The list goes on. My husband keeps telling me to relax. He's my polar opposite. He doesn't plan anything. He worries about NOTHING. He just goes with the flow in pretty much everything in his life. But the kids are my sole responsibilty. He knows very little about their routines and life. I don't blame him. He works very hard to provide for us, so he's not there most of the time. So maybe being the primary parent and the "only parent" on a lot of occasions as he travels a lot makes me feel that the responsibility of everything is solely on my shoulders. 

The way my husband describes it is that he is "the glass is half full" kind of guy. And I'm more "the glass is always half empty and cracked, and i just cut a lip and chipped a tooth". Fun right?

Oh well, i just don't know. I really need some IC.


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Guess what my husband just told me?
> Well, out of no where, he told me I know you hate my guts. That if you had a chance to leave , you'll leave. Sometimes I catch you looking at me and all I can see is pure hate. I know you fell out of love with me. Sometimes I wonder why you're even with me?
> 
> He really took me by surprise. And how did i react? I just stared at him, saying nothing. I don't understand how I didn't even react. I think hate is a pretty intense word, and it's definately not what i feel. Indifferent would have been more accurate.
> 
> I'm trying to reflect on these words of his. If this is how he REALLY feels and he's not just trying to put on a show to get some reaction from me, why is he acting as if everything is fine? If he thinks I really feel this way, why is he refusing counselling? Does he really not care enough, that even though he thinks his wife hates his guts, he doesn't mind living like this?


Wow, he's good.

He knew EXACTLY what to say to you to get you off center, to tell you that YOU are the problem.

And it worked.

So what will you do now?


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> Wow, he's good.
> 
> He knew EXACTLY what to say to you to get you off center.
> 
> And it worked.
> 
> So what will you do now?


I'm still searching for a good counselor. But I think I want to do a couple of IC sessions first. I need to sort myslf out first, and try out the counselor First. Then I'll tell him to join. And he better does. 

But, do you really think he meant it? Or was he trying to turn the table? Like its my fault he's acting that way?


----------



## turnera

How many people do you know who instantly turn into repentant people who want to make it up to you?

None? Right. Me, too. 

It's a trick.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Sometimes it feels like he is genuinely sorry and wants to work on the relationship. He really isn't a bad guy. I know he isn't happy with the way things are too.


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Sometimes it feels like he is genuinely sorry and wants to work on the relationship. He really isn't a bad guy. I know he isn't happy with the way things are too.


Ok. 

Then here is THE #1 rule to follow, based on the combined wisdom of THOUSANDS of posters who've been where you are:

IGNORE HIS WORDS.

WATCH ONLY HIS ACTIONS.

What do his actions tell you?


----------



## LongWalk

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Guess what my husband just told me?
> 
> Well, out of no where, he told me I know you hate my guts. That if you had a chance to leave , you'll leave. Sometimes I catch you looking at me and all I can see is pure hate. I know you fell out of love with me. Sometimes I wonder why you're even with me?
> 
> 
> 
> He really took me by surprise. And how did i react? I just stared at him, saying nothing. I don't understand how I didn't even react. I think hate is a pretty intense word, and it's definately not what i feel. Indifferent would have been more accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to reflect on these words of his. If this is how he REALLY feels and he's not just trying to put on a show to get some reaction from me, why is he acting as if everything is fine? If he thinks I really feel this way, why is he refusing counselling? Does he really not care enough, that even though he thinks his wife hates his guts, he doesn't mind living like this?




This is not an entirely negative statement. Your husband is not brain dead. He clearly knows your marriage is in trouble but he doesn't know how to repair it.



Scathingly indifference and pure hatred can be mixed up, especially when he compares your expression to the tenderness he once got.



You didn't react. Scary. You're verbal and intelligent but had no answer. Perhaps you feel that you love your husband at some deeper level but you longer want to bring that out into the open because you are afraid your love for him is now struggling. It's like an appliance that does not work quite right and you don't want to turn it on and confirm that is burnt out.



Not being able to show your husband how you feel puts his affections for you at risk.



Not knowing your husband that well, I can only venture that he might be like many guys, i.e., not too complicated. If he were having good sex and you finished with post coital remora syndrom he would just conclude everything was peachy again but without seeking an explanation beyond concluding that you were wonderful, women are irrational and he still has his mojo. In other words men tend to take women for granted, a mistake admittedly.



What sort of relationship did his parents have?



If your husband believes that you are not leaving him because its is difficult, given your three young children, then he may have entered a passive phase. He doesn't know what to do but is not going to rock the boat.



Also, you probably made some super efforts to meet your husband's needs in the past and he scarcely noticed. You are really p!ssed off about this. Covert contracts can be unhealthy for a marriage.



You say your husband's job is stressful. Does it require compassion and empathy or technical concentration or both?



Is your husband admired or esteemed at work?



Three small children is a heavy work load. Your ability to work and parent is impressive. Will you have anything left if succeed with this? Is your plan to have all the children in daycare?


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> Ok.
> 
> Then here is THE #1 rule to follow, based on the combined wisdom of THOUSANDS of posters who've been where you are:
> 
> IGNORE HIS WORDS.
> 
> WATCH ONLY HIS ACTIONS.
> 
> What do his actions tell you?


Yes you are right. He has always been good with words. Apologizing and saying that he didn't really mean it after every disappontment he gave me. 
So yes...i no longer care about words. I remember telling him once that i no longer want to hear his apology. He told me well atleast I'm apologizing. I ended up telling him that apologizing while repeating the same mistakes over and over again is actually very irritating.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> ​
> Would you have preferred that your wife walked away from the marriage and told you that she gave up, over staying with you and telling you over and over again that she wants to improve the marriage?
> Cause to me it looks like you prefer the first option.


I never had a second option. By the time I realized the extent of the problem, it was too late. She was gone. She NEVER looked to improve the marriage. She just walked. That is how I know what losing the most important person in your life can do to you. Cured me INSTANTLY. NO WAY I was going to be the kind of person who would treat someone I loved so much so poorly. 

Unfortunately, it was too late. You need to make him THINK it's too late. I don't know how you can do that without meaning it. I'm not sure it's even possible. I'm just giving you my experience. Confirmed by reading about hundreds of walk-away's who talked and talked until they were blue in the face with no results. Then the men who were "blindsided" when those wives left.

I can GUARANTEE he has no clue you are as far gone as you are. Making him realizing it before you leave is the key. I've been on these forums for years. I RARELY see it happen. 

And millions of men will continue to be "blindsided". And because it's their own damn fault, we don't care. Well, maybe if we start looking at the wive's and children who are also affected, we'll start doing something about it.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> ...i no longer care about words.


Good. That's a start. No more talking. Time to DO!


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> This is not an entirely negative statement. Your husband is not brain dead. He clearly knows your marriage is in trouble but he doesn't know how to repair it.
> 
> Scathingly indifferent and pure hatred can be mixed up, especially when he compares your expression to the tenderness he once got.
> 
> You didn't react. Scary. You're verbal and intelligent but had no answer. Perhaps you feel that you love your husband at some deeper level but you longer want to bring that out into the open because you are afraid your love for him is now struggling. It's like an appliance that does not work quite right and you don't want to turn it on and confirm that is burnt out.
> 
> Not being able to show your husband how you feel puts his affections for you at risk.
> 
> Not knowing your husband that well, I can only venture that he might be like many guys, i.e., not too complicated. If he were having good sex and you finished with post coital remora syndrom he would just conclude everything was peachy again but without seeking an explanation beyond concluding that you were wonderful, women are irrational and he still has his mojo. In other words men tend to take women for granted, a mistake admittedly.
> 
> 
> * this is what he always tells me. He tells me i am much simpler than you think. And that all he wants is for me to love him and show him all forms of love and affection. Easier said than done. How do you do this when your emotional needs are never met? When you're disappointed over and over again? To him affection means a hug and a kiss and some sex. Then he can go and do whatever he wants for the rest of the day. He doesn't get involved with me in anything without me begging. Well too bad it's not that easy for me. I want a companion. Someone who ENJOYS being with me. Everything is a chore for him. Ok, let me tell you this. Earlier on in our marriage I begged him to take this emotional needs questionaire. Most of my pages were empty except for the communication part.i wrote pages and pages. I told him exactly what i want. That having heart to heart conversations is what connects me to him the most. That i want to feel he enjoys talking and being with me. Anyway, for the next few days he still avoided me. Being desperate, I asked him if we could schedule an hour in the day where we were not allowed to do anything other than stay together and give each other our undivided attention. Well, he told me alright. But I'll use a stopwatch to time it because I know it'll stretch for more than an hour. I was at a loss of words. I remember crying my heart out that night, and him apologizing the next morning. *sigh* *
> 
> What sort of relationship did his parents have?
> 
> * His parents have a stable relationship. But theyre both living their own lives. They don't share the same interests. They're never intimate. Theyre more like room mates living under the same roof. But they both never complain. They're happy living this life.*
> 
> If your husband believes that you are not leaving him because its is difficult, given your three young children, then he may have entered a passive phase. He doesn't know what to do but is not going to rock the boat.
> 
> * This is also right. He knows our marriage is suffering but he thinks I'm too complicated and that there something wrong with me. He keeps telling me that I'll never be satisfied no matter what. So i think in his mind he is justifying his behaviour. *
> 
> Also, you probably made some super efforts to meet your husband's needs in the past and he scarcely noticed. You are really p!ssed off about this. Covert contracts can be unhealthy for a marriage.
> 
> * I know i tried my best. I am not p!ssed off. I already passed this phase. Feeling indifferent again.*
> 
> You say your husband's job is stressful. Does it require compassion and empathy or technical concentration or both?
> 
> Is your husband admired or esteemed at work?
> 
> * His work requires technical concentration and I know he is constantly stressed out. He is very good at his job and he is very admired. I do admire his dedication and success at work. I love men with brains! I think this is what attracted me to him the most.*
> 
> Three small children is a heavy work load. Your ability to work and parent is impressive. Will you have anything left if succeed with this? Is your plan to have all the children in daycare?
> 
> * My eldest goes to school, my younger daughter goes to daycare. And if I find a job my son will go to daycare too. I am a good organizer so I never struggled with working and taking care of the kids. Actually I found out that work automatically organizes my days *


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

MachoMcCoy said:


> I never had a second option. By the time I realized the extent of the problem, it was too late. She was gone. She NEVER looked to improve the marriage. She just walked. That is how I know what losing the most important person in your life can do to you. Cured me INSTANTLY. NO WAY I was going to be the kind of person who would treat someone I loved so much so poorly.
> 
> Unfortunately, it was too late. You need to make him THINK it's too late. I don't know how you can do that without meaning it. I'm not sure it's even possible. I'm just giving you my experience. Confirmed by reading about hundreds of walk-away's who talked and talked until they were blue in the face with no results. Then the men who were "blindsided" when those wives left.
> 
> I can GUARANTEE he has no clue you are as far gone as you are. Making him realizing it before you leave is the key. I've been on these forums for years. I RARELY see it happen.
> 
> And millions of men will continue to be "blindsided". And because it's their own damn fault, we don't care. Well, maybe if we start looking at the wive's and children who are also affected, we'll start doing something about it.


I understand how much you're hurting. I can't imagine how hard this must've been. But one thing I think you have overlooked, is the magnitude of pain she must have felt for years and years. If she's anything like me, she must have cried till her tears ran dry. Hurted till her soul became numb. Sometimes I really just want to scream my heart out. Maybe then he'll understand?

Women, and I'm talking about the normal ones not the cheaty types, never walk away easily from any relationship. But when they do, they never look back.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Sometimes I really just want to scream my heart out. Maybe then he'll understand?


No, I'm afraid not. Words again. LOUD words, maybe. But words nonetheless.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> But one thing I think you have overlooked, is the magnitude of pain she must have felt for years and years.


You think I've overlooked what I've done to her life? You think I don't know?

I'm not trying to place blame here. I'm trying to tell you what I went through. My wife was you. I was your husband. I'm fixed. My marriage is over. Use that as you may


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

MachoMcCoy said:


> You think I've overlooked what I've done to her life? You think I don't know?
> 
> I'm not trying to place blame here. I'm trying to tell you what I went through. My wife was you. I was your husband. I'm fixed. My marriage is over. Use that as you may


I'm not trying to blame you either. It's obvious that you're hurting. Sorry if it came across like that.

I really appreciate your input.


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Yes you are right. He has always been good with words. Apologizing and saying that he didn't really mean it after every disappontment he gave me.
> So yes...i no longer care about words. I remember telling him once that i no longer want to hear his apology. He told me well atleast I'm apologizing. I ended up telling him that apologizing while repeating the same mistakes over and over again is actually very irritating.


That's the boat I'm in right now. My H did something he KNOWS we hate, yet when he feels this way, it's like he could care less how it's going to hurt us - he has to do it. And every time he does it, it makes me that much closer to truly hating him and walking out the door. And yes, I've told him as much; he does it anyway. 

The only way MY H will ever change is in therapy. I suspect the same is true for yours.


----------



## turnera

MachoMcCoy said:


> I never had a second option. By the time I realized the extent of the problem, it was too late. She was gone. She NEVER looked to improve the marriage. She just walked. That is how I know what losing the most important person in your life can do to you. Cured me INSTANTLY. NO WAY I was going to be the kind of person who would treat someone I loved so much so poorly.
> 
> Unfortunately, it was too late. You need to make him THINK it's too late. I don't know how you can do that without meaning it. I'm not sure it's even possible. I'm just giving you my experience. Confirmed by reading about hundreds of walk-away's who talked and talked until they were blue in the face with no results. Then the men who were "blindsided" when those wives left.
> 
> I can GUARANTEE he has no clue you are as far gone as you are. Making him realizing it before you leave is the key. I've been on these forums for years. I RARELY see it happen.
> 
> And millions of men will continue to be "blindsided". And because it's their own damn fault, we don't care. Well, maybe if we start looking at the wive's and children who are also affected, we'll start doing something about it.


This is pure gold, OP. Read it over and over. Men being 'blindsided' by walkaway wives is a proven reality; books are written; studies are done; men don't listen, and women give up and leave.

And THIS is why it is SO important for you to tell him you're going to leave him if something doesn't change. That's what I'll be telling my H this weekend. You can do it, too.

Just tell him. Tell him if nothing changes, you'll be gone next summer. That gives him time to take it seriously and get help.


----------



## turnera

> Also, you probably made some super efforts to meet your husband's needs in the past and he scarcely noticed. You are really p!ssed off about this. Covert contracts can be unhealthy for a marriage.
> 
> I know i tried my best. I am not p!ssed off. I already passed this phase. Feeling indifferent again.


I'm at the stage where I wish he would just not come home one day. I don't even care what happens to him, I just want him gone; 35 years of the same treatment does that to you. Don't wait that long.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

turnera said:


> And THIS is why it is SO important for you to tell him you're going to leave him if something doesn't change.
> 
> Just tell him.


Turnera is a goddess here, but even she doesn't fully get this.

Talk.

Will.

Do.

NOTHING!

A letter on the nightstand and an empty house is what he needs. (yeah, yeah, I know. Abandonment. Kidnapping the kids. yadda yadda. I never said I had all of the answers).


----------



## LongWalk

I think you are smart and have chance to save your marriage.

You are both hurting, which makes it difficult to be vulnerable. Your husband does not empathize enough with your need for "meaningless" communication. He wants unconditional love because he wrongly believes that the marital contract promises that. The other day on Facebook someone had a link to some nature documentary about albatrosses. They mate for life and when they land on an island their stand together and rest so that there scarred beaks touch. They need that together time after being out a sea and flying for hours. You would get this. Your husband gets it, too, but he thinks that you are already like that except it's not working. WTF, is all he can think.

Your husband's parents have provided a poor model from your perspective. 

But really Turnera is right on. You need to act. Talk has gotten you as far as it can. You cannot go on like this for decades. You should find a counselor whom you think will be able to reach your husband. You need to give what you have written here to the therapist to read. After that you have to get your husband there. A discussion about the phenomenon of the WAW should be on the agenda.

By the way, you don't think your husband suffers from Asperger's or anything like that, do you? He has normal emotional intelligence, right?

As for action, the forms for divorce all filled out awaiting his signature. That is action. It will get him to concentrate. But you have spell it out. You are not set on divorce but you want change.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> I'm at the stage where I wish he would just not come home one day. I don't even care what happens to him, I just want him gone; 35 years of the same treatment does that to you. Don't wait that long.


This is my biggest fear. Waking up one day with feelings of pure hatred towards him. I can honestly see myself in your place if I don't take action now.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

I just got this message from my H:

"I was thinking yesterday about what keeps me away from you. I realized the reason is simple. You are acting in front of me. I feel your fake feelings, fake words, fake empathy. I really don't feel secure with you. I feel you're going to stab me in the back. I really need to know your honest feelings towards me. Even if you hate me, just tell me. I want to feel secure with you. Please stop faking. Please. This is killing us. I hate this feeling. It makes me feel so abandoned. Please understand me. Please be honest with me. Please don't get upset, I need your behaviour to change. If you're angry, tell me I am angry because of...., but please stop faking. Please."

This is really strange. I mean why is he telling me this now? Could it be that he is FINALLY getting it?? How should I respond? What should i say.?I sent him a message and told him we'll talk when he's home. 

What should my next step be? I don't want to ruin my chance!


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> By the way, you don't think your husband suffers from Asperger's or anything like that, do you? He has normal emotional intelligence, right?
> .


He doesn't have Aspergers. He is perfectly normal.


----------



## turnera

MachoMcCoy said:


> Turnera is a goddess here, but even she doesn't fully get this.
> 
> Talk.
> 
> Will.
> 
> Do.
> 
> NOTHING!
> 
> A letter on the nightstand and an empty house is what he needs. (yeah, yeah, I know. Abandonment. Kidnapping the kids. yadda yadda. I never said I had all of the answers).


Actually, what I said was tell him that, and then let him SEE you contacting lawyers, looking at new places to live, etc. Let him see your ACTIONS toward leaving him.


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I just got this message from my H:
> 
> "I was thinking yesterday about what keeps me away from you. I realized the reason is simple. You are acting in front of me. I feel your fake feelings, fake words, fake empathy. I really don't feel secure with you. I feel you're going to stab me in the back. I really need to know your honest feelings towards me. Even if you hate me, just tell me. I want to feel secure with you. Please stop faking. Please. This is killing us. I hate this feeling. It makes me feel so abandoned. Please understand me. Please be honest with me. Please don't get upset, I need your behaviour to change. If you're angry, tell me I am angry because of...., but please stop faking. Please."
> 
> This is really strange. I mean why is he telling me this now? Could it be that he is FINALLY getting it?? How should I respond? What should i say.?I sent him a message and told him we'll talk when he's home.
> 
> What should my next step be? I don't want to ruin my chance!


I would tell him you want to talk to him, but you need a couple days to think it through. In the meantime, sit down in a quiet room and write a long letter to him. Save it. A day later, open it up and edit it; cut out the emotion stuff, leave in the actual factual reasons for why you feel how you feel; stuff he can't refute like 'yesterday you spent 4 hours on the computer; you spent 3 minutes in conversation with me'; stuff like that. Save it again.

The next day, open it up again and edit it again, weed out all the 'you did this' stuff to leave just the these things are why I am in so much pain. Be sure to include your concrete thoughts about leaving.

The next day, print it out, sit down with him, and read it out loud to him. Listen to what he says. If he starts blaming you, stop him, say 'I won't participate in a blame game; either you want to work with me on this marriage or you don't. If you do, we don't blame - we fix.' And if he won't stop blaming you (or yelling or whatever else is harmful), get up and leave the room/house. Tell him when he is ready to talk logically and honestly without blaming you for all the problems, you're ready to listen.

See what happens.

btw, the fact that he's repeatedly asked you what's wrong is GOOD! It's very important. It means he does love you, he simply doesn't have the skills to make you happy. Men usually have a strong need for admiration; and when they feel their wives stop admiring them, it's a huge blow. Tell him you WANT to admire him but he's driving you away. This is the best time - while he's asking - to get him into therapy with you so he can start to see how to safely interact with you.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> I would tell him you want to talk to him, but you need a couple days to think it through. In the meantime, sit down in a quiet room and write a long letter to him. Save it. A day later, open it up and edit it; cut out the emotion stuff, leave in the actual factual reasons for why you feel how you feel; stuff he can't refute like 'yesterday you spent 4 hours on the computer; you spent 3 minutes in conversation with me'; stuff like that. Save it again.
> 
> The next day, open it up again and edit it again, weed out all the 'you did this' stuff to leave just the these things are why I am in so much pain. Be sure to include your concrete thoughts about leaving.
> 
> The next day, print it out, sit down with him, and read it out loud to him. Listen to what he says. If he starts blaming you, stop him, say 'I won't participate in a blame game; either you want to work with me on this marriage or you don't. If you do, we don't blame - we fix.' And if he won't stop blaming you (or yelling or whatever else is harmful), get up and leave the room/house. Tell him when he is ready to talk logically and honestly without blaming you for all the problems, you're ready to listen.
> 
> See what happens.
> 
> btw, the fact that he's repeatedly asked you what's wrong is GOOD! It's very important. It means he does love you, he simply doesn't have the skills to make you happy. Men usually have a strong need for admiration; and when they feel their wives stop admiring them, it's a huge blow. Tell him you WANT to admire him but he's driving you away. This is the best time - while he's asking - to get him into therapy with you so he can start to see how to safely interact with you.


Yeah i did that once. Wrote a long detailed list of things that hurt me and make me feel the way I do.He always tells me the reason he is acting this way is because he feels I don't love him. It will be a pointless conversation. He might improve for one day and then go back to his old ways. I think I'll just tell him theres nothing to talk about unless he agrees to MC. This time the ball is in his court. He gets to choose. MC or loosing me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Short and to the point. I like it.


----------



## LongWalk

Good!

Your husband is not a dullard. You can see now that the restraint of your inner feelings is to him false friendliness. 

Tell him that you are happy to have gotten his attention and look forward to MC.

If you have the strength, give him a hug of gratitude tonight.


----------



## LongWalk

.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> Good!
> 
> Your husband is not a dullard. You can see now that the restraint of your inner feelings is to him false friendliness.
> 
> Tell him that you are happy to have gotten his attention and look forward to MC.
> 
> If you have the strength, give him a hug of gratitude tonight.


I think I'll give him this hug of gratitude if he agrees to MC. Other than that, it's just words to me.


----------



## LongWalk

Well, I assumed that he agreed.


----------



## LongWalk

re: admiration
We will go out and do more if our spouses admire us. We are programmed to go out and fight to the death. It's true. Fight or flight. But if our mates think we are jerks, then we don't think it's worth it.

You don't want your husband to hunt down OM and slay him. There is no OM. You want to channel his desire into creating other forms of security. This would give you the equivalent charge of positive emotion. 

In MC you ought to have chance to decipher this. Tell your husband in MC that you want him to eliminate the idea that there could ever be n OM. Emphasize of course that you are not the cheating kind.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> In MC you ought to have chance to decipher this. Tell your husband in MC that you want him to eliminate the idea that there could ever be n OM. Emphasize of course that you are not the cheating kind.


Lol I wouldn't even make it to the end of the session if I ever mentioned the words "OM". Seriously, this topic gets to his nerves. He shuts down whenever the words affair, infidelity or anything similar comes up. He won't even discuss it. He would NEVER watch a movie with infidelity in it. This topic is just taboo. A friend of a friend cheated on her husband. So, her story once came up in a middle of one of our conversations. His tone changed. His facial expressions changed. He got so irritated and got angry that I was talking about her. And in the end he just said, jokingly, well if this happens to us I'll be sorry for our kids cuz they won't have a mother. I'll kill you first. Well, I know he didn't mean kill as in really kill, but he just wanted to send a message that this would never be taken lightly. I would be gone yesterday. This did lead to a fight as I felt it was very humiliating. But yet again, he apologized. 

I've always known since day one how heavily he feels against infidelity. It never bothered me though cuz I'd never do it. But his reaction is really starting to get to me. I don't feel I can talk to him about whatevers on my mind. I have to think about eveything before actually talking to him.

I really don't understand why he's so irritated by this topic. He was never cheated on. His parents never cheated on each other. And he never cheated.


----------



## turnera

When I married, I told my H that if he ever cheated it would be the LAST time he ever saw me or our kids. So 35 years later, I asked him why he never cheated. Without missing a beat, he reminded me of what I said 35 years ago. That's been his motivation all along - not losing us.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

I think this is why he reacts that way. Yeah, message delivered.


----------



## LongWalk

Your husband sounds somewhat rigid and humorless. Is he dogmatic about a lot of things?

Did you tell him MC necessary?


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> Your husband sounds somewhat rigid and humorless. Is he dogmatic about a lot of things?
> 
> Did you tell him MC necessary?


I didn't bring up MC again. I'm still searching for a good councelor. Once i find one I like, I'll book an appointment and tell him to come along. Either he comes along or He loses me.

Yes. I think my husband is pretty rigid in a lot of things. He is a man of morals and value. And he isn't flexible when it comes to them. And lately he started complaining of me not being on the same page as him. Not understanding his jokes and being serious all the time. Actually he just told me that he is much more outgoing with his friends and coworkers than he is with me. And that they all find him fun and love to hang around with him. He told me he feels like he has two personalities. The outgoing one reveals itself at work and the dull, serious one he leaves at home.


----------



## farsidejunky

That is because he is on guard. He knows things are off and is having trouble with it.

I lost my sense of humor with my wife entirely when we had grown apart. It is back now, but it took several months to get to this point.


----------



## LongWalk

Your husband may be as ripe for an affair as you if some woman finds him to very witty. But then both of you are in agreement that infidelity is morally unacceptable.

Clearly your husband would like to break through to you now but he is uncertain of where he stands.

I went to the web to look for a marriage counseling ratings site and came upon the famous Dr Harley. Here is an article on his site. There are others.

Perhaps you are not a quarrelsome or nagging wife, but still there are insights.

If you identify 4 or 5 marriage counselors that have good recommendations, you might ask your husband if he would like to select one. That might get him thinking. If he doesn't do it the same day, no need to get angry, for you can book one. It cannot hurt to try two different ones in the event of a double booking.

Also, since you are resolved to take action and your husband seems anxious for a way out of the dog house, you can afford to laugh and be cheerful.

The only thing that you long for is your husband's interest and attention. Remember one thing about men. They often feel that they signed to become 50 percent of a new being. They sacrifice their freedom to settle down, as do women. Wives often take care to too much stuff for their husbands and men think its great, not realizing that wives cannot give and give. This may seem like common sense, but I know from the failure of my own marriage that I should have seen that my ex wife's needs were legitimate.

It took me a long time to realize that I was the one mainly responsible for the failure of our marriage. If we had had MC more than the two times we did, we could have save our marriage. I think I needed IC. But people are proud and it is hard to admit that one has issues.

Your husband sounds like a pretty together guy. He just does not have a deep interest relational dynamics.

He needs to develop the habit of listening to you. If he succeeds, he should not develop into a doormat or someone you can bully or manipulate. There should be give and take.

You did not go for the photo interaction as your husband's subject yet but I have another suggestion. Do your kids like bubble bath. Get in with them and invite daddy to come and laugh. Maybe you can get him in, too, while you put the older middle child to bed.

Now that you are resolved and committed to action, you can now breath a sigh of relief.



> *How to Deal with a Quarrelsome and Nagging Wife*
> 
> by Willard F. Harley, Jr.
> 
> 
> 
> Better to live in a desert than with a quarrelsome and nagging wife (Proverbs 21:19)
> I've counseled many husbands who have been driven out of their homes by wives who simply won't stop criticizing them. What these husbands want is peace, but what they get is war. What can they do to prevent the divorce that usually follows their escape? More to the point, what can they do to satisfy their wives so they'll stop being so critical?
> 
> Their story usually begins in the same way. During courtship, and throughout much of their marriage, their wives seem very happy and supportive of them. They feel that their marriages are just about perfect. But ever so gradually, their wives became quarrelsome. They begin to argue about seemingly trivial matters, only to apologize later, blaming it on having a bad day. As their issues increase, so does the intensity of their criticism. Before long, these husbands find themselves spending more time at work or at play without their wives, just to have a little peace and quiet. And that infuriates their wives even more. Regardless of how patient a husband tries to be, the steady flow of criticism eventually becomes intolerable. Eventually, they find themselves living separately wondering how they will be able to save their marriages.
> 
> Their wives' story usually begins with an effort on her part to be accommodating in the face of her husband's thoughtlessness. She mentions the problems she is having with decisions he makes in a polite and restrained way, but nothing ever changes. The problems he creates for her persist indefinitely and the resentment that accompanies them finally boils over. He wants her to forgive and forget but she cannot do either. The more she thinks about what she's been through the angrier she feels. And when she's alone with him, she lets him know about it.
> 
> The reason that this problem has persisted for so many millennia is well understood by most women whose husbands ignore their complaints. By expressing their displeasure with intensity, at least they are letting off steam, and once in a while they get their husband's attention. Many of these women I've counseled have told me that they know it doesn't do much good to keep rehashing the past, but they feel better when they do it. One husband told me once that he occasionally lets his wife lambaste him for about two hours because he knows that she will be in a much better mood when it's all over. But then he does nothing to address the problems she raises.
> 
> The Stages of Nagging
> 
> As I indicated above, nagging comes in stages. At first, a wife's complaints are usually introduced with respect. She lets her husband know that she would appreciate it if he would discuss his decisions with her before he makes them. But he tells her that there are some issues in life that he must decide for himself. Or he says that he will discuss them with her in the future, but then rarely does. He considers her complaints to be nagging, but they're nothing compared to what's in his future.
> 
> After a while, when she realizes that her husband has no intention of resolving conflicts with her, she raises the volume. That's the second stage of nagging. She tells him that she won't put up with his thoughtlessness and picks a fight whenever he makes an independent decision. That's where demands, disrespect and anger take over. She lets him know that he won't get away with his thoughtlessness. She'll make him pay.
> 
> But fights don't solve problems. They just make matters worse. And her resentment over the many thoughtless decisions he's made piles up to where it's all she can think about. The third stage of nagging takes over as she remembers the countless ways that her husband has mistreated her. And her memory is sharpened whenever they are together. She won't forgive him for suffering he caused her, and she certainly can't forget it. One woman recently told me that she felt as if she had been stabbed by her husband a thousand times, and as she lay bleeding on the floor he wants her to forget the past and hope for a better future.
> 
> What can the husband do?
> 
> If you don't face this problem in your marriage, which has existed for other couples for thousands of years, it's relatively easy to see that its solution requires the cooperation of both spouses. Neither can solve it on their own.
> 
> During the first stage, when a wife is being respectful when she has a complaint, a husband should take her complaint very seriously. She is trying to work with him to find common ground, and is willing to consider options that would make them both happy. But if he were to call her complaints nagging, and encourage her to keep them to herself, he would be making a great mistake. He'd be missing an opportunity to solve little problems before they grow to become monsters. By trying to shut her up in this first stage, he is not only being disrespectful toward her, but he is also destroying the good will she still has for him.
> 
> By the time conflicts get to the second stage of nagging, her good will has been squandered. She no longer believes that her husband cares about her interests, so she must fight for them. She must force him to care for her. So she becomes demanding, disrespectful, and angry in an effort to get her way.
> 
> In this second stage, when a husband recognizes a shift in her approach from being respectful to being disrespectful, he usually fights fire with fire. If she wants to be disrespectful, he can be that way, too. But if he makes that mistake, he will see his marriage unravel rather quickly.
> 
> The right way for a husband to approach a demanding, disrespectful, and angry wife is to try to temporarily look past her inappropriate way of expressing herself, and try to deal with the complaint in a respectful way. But this is where her cooperation is absolutely necessary. When he's willing to address her complaints the right way, she should somehow restrain her temptation to be abusive toward him. Instead of regarding her abusive methods as the only effective way to get his attention, she should regard his willingness to negotiate with respect as something they should both do.
> 
> Demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts should be completely eliminated from a couple's conversation with each other. They do not help couples solve marital problems. Instead, they prevent those problems from being solved and drive away the only person who can help solve them. Furthermore, they destroy romantic love, the key ingredient for a happy marriage.
> 
> But when a husband's wife has entered the third stage of nagging, where all she can think about is the years of neglect that she has endured, and she can't seem to overcome the deep resentment she experiences whenever she see him or talks with him, solutions are very difficult to find.
> 
> I've counseled many very intelligent and resourceful women who simply can't seem to talk respectfully to their husbands. In every other area of life and with every other person, they have complete control over their emotional reactions. But faced with their husbands, they simply cannot stop talking about their resentment. In these cases, a husband usually has no other choice but to separate.
> 
> There are some women, however, who can control their anger and resentment in this stage long enough to let their husbands recreate the good will they once felt. These women know that if their husbands are serious about resolving conflicts the right way, and prove it in the way they are resolving current conflicts, they can make enough Love Bank deposits to restore romantic love to their marriage. If they give their husbands enough time to correct their mistakes, the resentment that had been building over the years dissipates.
> 
> How to resolve conflicts the right way
> 
> I have created a rule that can set a couple on a path to recovery, regardless of the stage of nagging a woman finds herself in, if both spouses follow it. I call it the Policy of Joint Agreement: Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. If a husband and wife agree to follow that rule, neither of them will do anything to upset each other. They stop living their lives as if the other doesn't exist and forces them to be thoughtful of each other when they're tempted to be thoughtless. Their discussion should be safe and pleasant if a couple are serious about resolving their conflicts. Both of them must avoid making demands, being disrespectful, or getting angry while they try to come to an agreement.
> 
> Since their goal is enthusiastic agreement, they should each focus attention on the other person's perspective so that they can think of ways of satisfying both points of view. Instead of trying to force their own way of thinking on each other, they should try to understand each other. How can they resolve the conflict in a way that makes them both happy?
> 
> Equipped with a better understanding of the issue, they give each other ideas that might work. As possible resolutions come to mind, they email them to each other, and every day they respectfully discuss them until they have found a winner.
> 
> While this approach to marital conflict resolution clearly works when followed, couples often think it's too complicated to attempt. It's so much easier to try to force the issue, or to try to ignore it entirely. But when either of those tactics are tried, fights usually ensue.
> 
> How to get the ball rolling
> 
> Are you married to a nagging wife? Or does your husband ever accuse you of being a nagging wife? There's a simple way to overcome that problem in your marriage, but it will take the cooperation of both of you.
> 
> As a wife, you should put an end to demands, disrespect, and anger whenever a conflict with your husband arises. And don't bring up mistakes of the past. Focus your attention on the problem at hand. Offer your husband the opportunity to discuss it with respect, agreeing to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement until it's resolved. And your husband should have the same right to raise issues with you, without you becoming disrespectful or angry with him.
> 
> As a husband, you should address every complaint your wife makes with patience and kindness. You should enter into a discussion with her regarding every issue she raises, and do it without any disrespect or anger on your part. If you think that she has so many issues that you feel overwhelmed by them, organize them together and set priorities. Focus on the three that top her list, and when they are resolved, work your way through it.
> 
> When a couple fails to resolve their conflicts the right way, conflicts tend to pile up. And resentment also piles up. In those marriage, couples lose hope that there can ever be peace. But when a couple starts to attack the pile with mutual thoughtfulness, the very fact that progress is being made restores their hope. There's no time like the present to begin resolving those conflicts in a way that completely eliminates nagging.


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I didn't bring up MC again.


Of course you didn't. He would have given you holy hell for doing so. So you gave in. Like he expected you to.



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Yes. I think my husband is pretty rigid in a lot of things. He is a man of morals and value. And he isn't flexible when it comes to them. And lately he started complaining of me not being on the same page as him.


Does this ring a bell?pHinnWeb: The Right Man And The Fear Of Losing Face



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Not understanding his jokes and being serious all the time. Actually he just told me that he is much more outgoing with his friends and coworkers than he is with me. And that they all find him fun and love to hang around with him. He told me he feels like he has two personalities. The outgoing one reveals itself at work and the dull, serious one he leaves at home.


Just so you know, this is abuse, control, or manipulation. Or all three. Even if HE doesn't know he's doing it.

You need professional help for this.


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## LongWalk

MC is a must.

Happy turkey day.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> Your husband may be as ripe for an affair as you if some woman finds him to very witty. But then both of you are in agreement that infidelity is morally unacceptable.
> 
> Clearly your husband would like to break through to you now but he is uncertain of where he stands.
> 
> I went to the web to look for a marriage counseling ratings site and came upon the famous Dr Harley. Here is an article on his site. There are others.
> 
> Perhaps you are not a quarrelsome or nagging wife, but still there are insights.
> 
> If you identify 4 or 5 marriage counselors that have good recommendations, you might ask your husband if he would like to select one. That might get him thinking. If he doesn't do it the same day, no need to get angry, for you can book one. It cannot hurt to try two different ones in the event of a double booking.
> 
> Also, since you are resolved to take action and your husband seems anxious for a way out of the dog house, you can afford to laugh and be cheerful.
> 
> The only thing that you long for is your husband's interest and attention. Remember one thing about men. They often feel that they signed to become 50 percent of a new being. They sacrifice their freedom to settle down, as do women. Wives often take care to too much stuff for their husbands and men think its great, not realizing that wives cannot give and give. This may seem like common sense, but I know from the failure of my own marriage that I should have seen that my ex wife's needs were legitimate.
> 
> It took me a long time to realize that I was the one mainly responsible for the failure of our marriage. If we had had MC more than the two times we did, we could have save our marriage. I think I needed IC. But people are proud and it is hard to admit that one has issues.
> 
> Your husband sounds like a pretty together guy. He just does not have a deep interest relational dynamics.
> 
> He needs to develop the habit of listening to you. If he succeeds, he should not develop into a doormat or someone you can bully or manipulate. There should be give and take.
> 
> You did not go for the photo interaction as your husband's subject yet but I have another suggestion. Do your kids like bubble bath. Get in with them and invite daddy to come and laugh. Maybe you can get him in, too, while you put the older middle child to bed.
> 
> Now that you are resolved and committed to action, you can now breath a sigh of relief.



LongWalk.... I can't thank you enough for this post. This is my marriage to a T. This is EXACTLY what happened in my marriage. I've been trying to describe it but I just couldn't arrange my thoughts to describe it that incredible way.

You know earlier in my marriage, I used to think of the best ways to tell my husband that something he did is bothering me. He used to laugh it off and tell me oh you're so polite. And he never changed no matter how 'nicely' I tried to approach him. So yes, as time passed I started feeling resentment and anger so I started to lash out at him. Understandibly, he got more defensive and turned the tables on how horrible and disrespectful I am to him. And it usually followed with an apology from me cuz I really didn't like the way i was talking to him. Well, after years and years of this I finally reached stage 3. I can't even LOOK at him without remembering everything he did. I am so overwhelmed with everything. I can't think of anything else. Now whatever good approach he takes just means nothing to me. He can no longer get through to me. We can go on date nights every night without me being able to feel a connection. I remember him asking me on our last date why I was so quiet and I told him I can't find anything to talk to you about. This is why I feel so hopeless. I reached a stage where I can't get myself to do any more efforts.

Ok...now this will sound terrible. When I really think of it, I don't care if he has an affair. I could see him sleeping with someone else and I don't think I'll even care. I don't feel ANY kind of jealousy when he's complementing, flirting or staring at a woman. Sometimes I think that he can't really have a relationship with another woman. It's too hard for him.

Maybe this marriage is doomed already..


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## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> Just so you know, this is abuse, control, or manipulation. Or all three. Even if HE doesn't know he's doing it.
> 
> You need professional help for this.


I never thought of it that way. Now that you mention it, It really does feel like manipulation and abuse. But he blames it on me because i don't interact with him and "get" his jokes. He is right though. I think it's partially my fault. I don't want to victimize myself. I am not an angel too.


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## LongWalk

Remember that you made three children together. That is a great achievement.

To save your marriage it will take two. You need to give your husband hope, otherwise he will not change. Have you ever seen a house burn down? Sometimes the firemen wil continue to spray water even though the fire can no longer be put out. The public could not stand to see them just sit and wait, so they spray the flames until the ruins are smoldering.

Your husband thinks of himself as a decent guy. But he also feels emasculated.

This is why you need to take your determination to fix the situation or leave him as a liberating moment. You must act. Hamlet failed to act in time. A large percentage of marriages fail. That is modern reality. Many don't have, too. But we no longer have the prohibition against divorce and cheating.

I am not religious myself, but even many Christians will admit that the prospect of eternal Hell fire does not seem very real to most people. Most people know the great feeling of love that comes so easily to teens but as life goes on love gives way to greyness. But you don't have to see it play out in a ruin. From what you write you would like to have a romantic ending with your husband. Why does he have to make it so damn hard?

You have to laugh. Without a sense of humor everything will be even harder.

Could you sit and watch stand up with your husband?

When you are asleep and your husband looks at you, what do you imagine goes through his head?


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## Me'N'My'Girl

I am at a really low point now. This is really hopeless.

So we had a small talk which ended terribly.we were in bed and he was staring at me and told me that I'm such a beautiful woman. I replied sarcastically that this beauty got me no where. I am in a sexless marriage where my husband wouldn't even care to touch me. So he started his defense stratetgy immediately saying that I'm the one whos pushing him away. That I dont love him. He went on and on about how simple he is. That all he needs is my affection. Well, I told him that I'm not happy. That we really need to go to MC to sort ourselves out. That we've been doing the same thing over and over again without seeing any improvements. so he told me we can do the emotional needs questionairre. Yeah well, i begged him to do it before, and after he did it I begged him to read what I actually wrote. And nothing ever got implemented. He told me that was a few years ago and he would like to Try it again. I told him We really need a Counselor to point out where we have gone wrong. Whats it we're doing that makes us go round and round in circles. He flat out refused and said he will not go and talk about our problems elsewhere. That whatever the problem is, it should be solved between us alone. He said you're so fixated on going to a counselor and thats why you don't want to try. And went on and on about how stubborn and hardheaded I am? He told me the solution is simple, that if I would just do the things He told me to do our life will be much better. I've never seen him this selfish!!! Yeah! What about the things that I want!!!??? I got angry and raised my tone a bit and told him that right now theres a lot more to it than just writing out what we both want and then voila! everything becomes great. I told him I have so much anger and resentment inside and I really need to sort this out. That without doing so nothing will ever change. He said well that's too bad for you. You're so complicated and you will stay like this forever! 

I told him flat out that he has to go with me to a counselor or else I'm done. He threw in the emotional needs questionnaire again and told me well lets try this for the last time and if it doesn't work out then we will go to a counselor. We both got pretty mad at the end and I left the room. I came back ten minutes later and he was snoring in bed. 

I am at a loss as to what my next step should be. Should I throw in an ultimatum now?Either we go to MC or I leave? But he knows this is not an option. We are expats in another country overseas and the kids are already in their schools. It would take a lot of planning for me to go back home, find a job and find a school for the kids. Or should I try this emotional needs questionnaire for the last time? He told me last time we did it he really didn't care about it, but right now he wants to change and is willing to do whatever I say. Yeah, words are too easy.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> You have to laugh. Without a sense of humor everything will be even harder.


I know I need to let go a liitle. Sometimes I look in the mirror and feel so old. I'm 29 but I feel like I'm 50. Something inside me really changed. It's like I don't know me anymore. I remember back in the day when I used to laugh a lot. Everything seemed much better. I had a lot of hopes and dreams for the future. And these hopes started slipping away slowly through my hands. I want the old me back. I really do.

Once my brother was visiting and we talked and talked and laughed and I felt so young again. I'll never forget the look on my husband's face after he left. He told me I've never seen you so happy. You never laugh like this with me. 



> When you are asleep and your husband looks at you, what do you imagine goes through his head?


 He must be wondering where did his wife go.


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## LongWalk

I believe in you.

One, getting professional help is a no-brainer. A good marriage counselor will tell you to stop talking and listen.

Tell your husband that a good marriage counselor will not go one-sidedly after one of you but create an atmosphere for successful communication.

Simply book it and tell when it is. You don't have to threaten.

So you are Americans in Europe or Brits? I am in Sweden.

This being abroad adds pressure. Fewer family and friends.

What sort of network have you gotten in place?

Are you struggling with another language?

Right now the tension between you is so terrible that nothing that either of you do can be right. Actually, MC is going to be a relief for your husband because he is going to be able to tell someone how terrible it is to get into bed with a beautiful woman who cannot stand him.

Are you working out regularly?

You can do the questionnaire and go to MC.


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Ok...now this will sound terrible. When I really think of it, I don't care if he has an affair. I could see him sleeping with someone else and I don't think I'll even care. I don't feel ANY kind of jealousy when he's complementing, flirting or staring at a woman. Sometimes I think that he can't really have a relationship with another woman. It's too hard for him.


That's where I'm at. I actually wish my H would find someone else just so I wouldn't have to be intimate with him anymore, the resentment is so deep. And I'm sorry to BSs here, I know that hurts to hear. But yesterday, after the horrendous thing he did last weekend - and it's taken me a full week just to be able to be in the same room with him - he did one again, something he KNOWS I hate, hurts me, but he doesn't seem to care.

I spent the afternoon thinking about how I was going to leave. I'd finally hit that point. Then my DD asked us to play a game, so I did, and I lost the impetus. But I did start filling out my Love Busters questionnaire. When I have it finished, I'm going to give it to him and tell him something has to change. It's concrete information he can use. You should try doing that.


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## turnera

Let me first reiterate that if you are going to do a questionnaire, do the Love Buster one first. Don't touch the Emotional Needs one yet. There is too much resentment - in both of you - to even care about ENs right now. Fix the LBs first. I am you, and my H is amazing at meeting ENs. But that will never be enough because he LBs me every time I turn around and the resentment grows and grows and grows until I just hate him. Ok? If he's asking to do a questionnaire, go print out the woman's LB and fill it out and give it to him. Have him fill out the man's one. Schedule a time to sit down and read it out loud so he actually HEARS it.

And then schedule the MC appointment. Tell him it's scheduled. Tell him you EXPECT him to go and if he doesn't, you'll start making plans to separate. DO NOT GET INTO A CONVERSATION about it. He's already proved he easily manipulates you. Tell him go or divorce. 

And now I'm going to show you his manipulation. You need to learn to recognize it so you can start calling him out on it. He'll never learn to stop if you don't learn to spot it.


Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I am at a really low point now. This is really hopeless.
> 
> So we had a small talk which ended terribly.we were in bed and he was staring at me and *told me that I'm such a beautiful woman*. I replied sarcastically that this beauty got me no where. I am in a sexless marriage where my husband wouldn't even care to touch me. So he started *his defense strategy* immediately saying that *I'm the one who's pushing him away*. That *I don't love him*. He went on and on about how simple he is. That *all he needs is my affection*. Well, I told him that I'm not happy. That we really need to go to MC to sort ourselves out. That we've been doing the same thing over and over again without seeing any improvements. so he told me we can do the emotional needs questionairre. Yeah well, i begged him to do it before, and after he did it I begged him to read what I actually wrote. And nothing ever got implemented. He told me that was a few years ago and he would like to Try it again. I told him We really need a Counselor to point out where we have gone wrong. Whats it we're doing that makes us go round and round in circles. He flat out refused and said he will not go and talk about our problems elsewhere. That whatever the problem is, *it should be solved between us alone*. He said you're so fixated on going to a counselor and thats why *you don't want to try*. And went on and on about *how stubborn and hardheaded I am*? He told me the solution is simple, that *if I would just* do the things *He told me to do* our life will be much better. I've never seen him this selfish!!! Yeah! What about the things that I want!!!??? I got angry and raised my tone a bit and told him that right now theres a lot more to it than just writing out what we both want and then voila! everything becomes great. I told him I have so much anger and resentment inside and I really need to sort this out. That without doing so nothing will ever change. He said well that's too bad for you. *You're so complicated* and you will stay like this forever!
> 
> I told him flat out that he has to go with me to a counselor or else I'm done. He threw in the emotional needs questionnaire again and told me well lets try this for the last time and if it doesn't work out then we will go to a counselor. We both got pretty mad at the end and I left the room. I came back ten minutes later and* he was snoring* in bed.


And yes, that last one was manipulation. Why? Because he SHOWED you that (1) you aren't upsetting him and (2)he's the one in charge by deciding when the conversation is over.

Now, I'm not saying he's a jerk who doesn't love you. I think he does. He's just afraid of therapy and he'll do everything he can to avoid it. This is where you have to be strong.

Oh, and if he doesn't show up at the MC, you go in anyway. It will help you even if he's not there.


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Once my brother was visiting and we talked and talked and laughed and I felt so young again. I'll never forget the look on my husband's face after he left. He told me I've never seen you so happy. You never laugh like this with me.


I've told my husband more than once that I never laugh any more. And it's because of being married to him. Of course, it's also because he used to make fun of my laugh. To avoid being made fun of, I just stopped laughing around him.


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## LongWalk

Divorce him, Turnera.

MnMGirl, is your husband a dud? You believe he is good hearted but his actions belie that, so he is not the person you hoped he would be. On TAM people always say change yourself, don't try to change others because that is outside of our power. This is wise but not the whole story.

Right now is darkest moment, but now you are motivated to change yourself. If you go to MC, you will have an opportunity to articulate what sort of person you want to be and what sort of life you want to lead.

If your husband is habitually careless about your feelings, then you can only decide to communicate clearly what is unacceptable to you. After that you must enforce your boundaries. Divorce is ultimate means of enforcement. If you are not really prepared to divorce for practical reasons. If there are, for example, no good babysitters and you don't trust your husband with the kids in a joint custody situation, then you cannot make quitting your marriage an option. In that case, you must become happy within your marriage but without him. You settle for a sexless marriage with minimal interaction and affection. That goes on until one of you files for divorce.

I don't think you will have the strength to change yourself so long as you will not put divorce on the table. Perhaps when you go to MC – and you know that is non-negotiable now – you can actually not attack your husband at all. Instead, tell the counselor and your husband that you are coping poorly with the challenges of being a wife. You cannot reconcile your expectations with reality. Therefore, you are done.

However, you wonder if there is some core of love left for your husband. He asked to know what your really felt and not to lie and be false. You can honestly say that love is there but you feel that you sliding downward and everything you grasp is slippery or breaks off in your hand.

I would guess that MC has tools to rebuild trust and communication.

Your husband that you were beautiful. You replied that your looks were worthless. Why not ask him to do a photographic essay on you. If he take photos of you and is interested in finding you in those photos, he will have the courage to approach you. Perhaps you can no longer imagine being intimate with him, but you ought to try.

Could you find some instructions for facial massage and let him give you one?

Put some meal in a crockpot and go to the park with the your children. Take pictures and play. Agree not to quarrel or say anything negative. Go home and enjoy the meal.

Is your husband good to your children? Is he interested in them?

Can't you all get into bed together and read Alice in Wonderland or something?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Mend, work on yourself, and learn to grow and be the best you can be. Learn about yourself, and what yor needs are. Learn what you want in a relationship. Either find someone new, or he will have to learn to bend. A good relationship will bend for each other. 

Learn to be a detach observer, and you may find, that your marriage is worse than you even realize. He may not be whom you believe he is. You wanting something, and it may affect your perception. Truth is, you can't be in a relationship with just one. Not meeting each other's need is like playing tennis by yourself. You keep serving, hoping someone will volley in return. Find out how to make a relationship work, and if he doesn't do the same, you should leave, otherwise you will kick yourself down the line. We are only alotted a certain amount of time, and why have a miserable existence.

Don't let someone guilt you into staying. It is better to be a mentally and physically healthy person. You will live longer, and be able to be a better role model for your children. If you set this as an example, they will learn that it is the norm.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> Let me first reiterate that if you are going to do a questionnaire, do the Love Buster one first. Don't touch the Emotional Needs one yet. There is too much resentment - in both of you - to even care about ENs right now. Fix the LBs first. I am you, and my H is amazing at meeting ENs. But that will never be enough because he LBs me every time I turn around and the resentment grows and grows and grows until I just hate him. Ok? If he's asking to do a questionnaire, go print out the woman's LB and fill it out and give it to him. Have him fill out the man's one. Schedule a time to sit down and read it out loud so he actually HEARS it.
> 
> And then schedule the MC appointment. Tell him it's scheduled. Tell him you EXPECT him to go and if he doesn't, you'll start making plans to separate. DO NOT GET INTO A CONVERSATION about it. He's already proved he easily manipulates you. Tell him go or divorce.
> 
> And now I'm going to show you his manipulation. You need to learn to recognize it so you can start calling him out on it. He'll never learn to stop if you don't learn to spot it.
> And yes, that last one was manipulation. Why? Because he SHOWED you that (1) you aren't upsetting him and (2)he's the one in charge by deciding when the conversation is over.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying he's a jerk who doesn't love you. I think he does. He's just afraid of therapy and he'll do everything he can to avoid it. This is where you have to be strong.
> 
> Oh, and if he doesn't show up at the MC, you go in anyway. It will help you even if he's not there.


Turnera, you really opened my eyes to many things I thought were normal. I never even THOUGHT that my husband could be manipulating me. I started to believe that there must be something horribly wrong with me. after every conversation I have with him, I end up hating myself. Like I'm some pshycho crazy woman. Yes, now I'm starting to see through it. I will have to learn how to stop him when he starts manipulating me. 

You know for some reason, the worst one of them is him turning his back on me and sleeping. He always does this. And he knows how much it hurts me. I hate the way he could just compartmentalize everything. He could sleep in a blink of an eye and start snoring leaving me totally enraged and bitter!

Sometimes I just wish i could slap him and put some sense into him. I mean what's so hard to understand?!?! Is it so hard for us to be real friends?? Is it too hard for him to hug me when I am feeling down instead of giving me criticisms and directions and solutions? Are his hobbies and xbox much fun than being intimate with me? Why won't he agree to MC?! I begged him to try ONE session! Is this such a big sacrifice?!

I haven't done the Love busters questionnaire before. He has this huge event at work next week and is so stressed out,so I'll wait till next week and then i will unleash hell. We'll start by doing the LB questionnaire. To be honest right now i have no use for the EN one.

Turnera, I feel your pain through your posts. I really feel for you. You endured this hell for such a long time. You are a strong woman. I truly admire you.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> Of course, it's also because he used to make fun of my laugh. To avoid being made fun of, I just stopped laughing around him.


This is so very hurtful!


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## LongWalk

From the description she has given she is not certain if her husband is capable of meeting her needs even if he should attempt it.

It seems that he is definitely aware that his marriage failing. It would be a shame if he were capable of changing. But it is a truism that it may take a divorce to educate a man. In his next relationship he may be much more on the ball.


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## LongWalk

> You know for some reason, the worst one of them is him turning his back on me and sleeping. He always does this. And he knows how much it hurts me. I hate the way he could just compartmentalize everything. He could sleep in a blink of an eye and start snoring leaving me totally enraged and bitter!


 When you were lovers did you sleep entwined? Your husband may wish you were in contact when going to sleep but he may feel rejected. Possibly he is longing to touch you but dares not. We cannot tell from what you write.

In MC you can ask this openly.



> Sometimes I just wish i could slap him and put some sense into him. I mean what's so hard to understand?!?! Is it so hard for us to be real friends?? Is it too hard for him to hug me when I am feeling down instead of giving me criticisms and directions and solutions? Are his hobbies and xbox much fun than being intimate with me? Why won't he agree to MC?! I begged him to try ONE session! Is this such a big sacrifice?!


*Xbox is an escape. Ask him point blank, "Honey, do you know that the xbox is killing our relationship. If you cannot get rid of it do you want me to dispose of it? This is a choice you are making." State this once clearly, looking him in the eye.*



> I haven't done the Love busters questionnaire before. *He has this huge event at work next week and is so stressed out*, so I'll wait till next week and then i will unleash hell.


His work is no longer the important thing here. Don't get involved in supporting his work anymore. You face divorce. That is a mega hassle. Do not put off anything because that will simply dig a deeper hole.

You need to stop enabling his detachment and escapism.

Do not lose your temper. Take action but be the person you want to be.

Also, start looking for an apartment nearby. It could be for your or him. Get the brochures and present them to him. Talk about the cost. Who moves? It is up to him, really.

But tell him that you hope to save your marriage. You want to be in love and make love but you will not fritter your life away.

You are of the age that making a new life is still possible.

I am going to the store. When I come back I will tell about a couple IRL.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk, I can't thank you enough for your posts. You really help me tremendously. Your help is much appreciated. 



> MnMGirl, is your husband a dud? You believe he is good hearted but his actions belie that, so he is not the person you hoped he would be. On TAM people always say change yourself, don't try to change others because that is outside of our power. This is wise but not the whole story.


I do believe he is good hearted. I don't think you can put on an act for 13 straight years. I know him too well. He really does believe he is doing his best and that he is such a great husband. IMO i gave a lot in this marriage and I believe he has taken me for granted. He knows I won't leave him. He knows that I can't do this to my children. He always told me that I'm a fantastic mother but a terrible wife. Yeah I admit that I am a terrible wife NOW.



> Right now is darkest moment, but now you are motivated to change yourself. If you go to MC, you will have an opportunity to articulate what sort of person you want to be and what sort of life you want to lead.


Yes i really need it badly. I lost myself somewhere on the way and I need to redefine myself. Actually this is much more important to me now. I need to do this for myself and for my kids. I have to be strong for them.



> Put some meal in a crockpot and go to the park with the your children. Take pictures and play. Agree not to quarrel or say anything negative. Go home and enjoy the meal.
> 
> Is your husband good to your children? Is he interested in them?


Yea my husband loves his children and they adore them. He doesn't have much time for them though as they sleep at 8 and he doesn't come home till after 9. So he doesn't see them except in the weekends.And even then he has work and isn't "free" to play with them unless we go out. We take them to the park every week and we have fun. He takes loads and loads of pictures for us and we enjoy watching them when we come home.We do have a nice time as a family.

We are expats in Dubai and we've been here for 17 months now. I remember when we took the decision to leave home I thought that being together alone in a strange country without our family and friends will bring us together as a couple. Well I was wrong. We drifted away further and further since we came here. Thefirst year was difficult. We had no friends and I was pregnant and felt trapped. Things are much better now. We have a circle of friends and everything fell into place.

I do wonder though, why does he NEVER complan about our sex life?When I bring it up he says that he is not satisfied, But he never brings it up on his own. He masturbates almost daily. It's like he totally replaced me. Is this a normal male behaviour? It feels like the roles have reversed.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> Learn to be a detach observer, and you may find, that your marriage is worse than you even realize. He may not be whom you believe he is. You wanting something, and it may affect your perception. Truth is, you can't be in a relationship with just one. Not meeting each other's need is like playing tennis by yourself. You keep serving, hoping someone will volley in return. Find out how to make a relationship work, and if he doesn't do the same, you should leave, otherwise you will kick yourself down the line. We are only alotted a certain amount of time, and why have a miserable existence.


I started to detach myself from the whole situation and observe. I still don't want to believe that my marriage is worse than I think it is. I am still holding on to the hope that someday this marriage will miraculously improve. It certainly does feel that I am playing tennis all alone. I serve over and over again and wonder why on earth no one is returning the ball.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

> .
> *Xbox is an escape. Ask him point blank, "Honey, do you know that the xbox is killing our relationship. If you cannot get rid of it do you want me to dispose of it? This is a choice you are making." State this once clearly, looking him in the eye.*


He is not an xbox addict in any way shape or form. If it's not the xbox it is anything else. Facebook, editing photos. I could take everything away and he could still find something else to do lol. 




> His work is no longer the important thing here. Don't get involved in supporting his work anymore. You face divorce. That is a mega hassle. Do not put off anything because that will simply dig a deeper hole.
> 
> You need to stop enabling his detachment and escapism.
> 
> Do not lose your temper. Take action but be the person you want to be.


You are right. I am learning. I'm trying my best to control my temper. I used to get angry and raise the tone of my voice so quickly. I believe I'm doing much better now. I admit I played a huge part in us reaching this point. I'll type this LB questionnaire today. He better make time for it.


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## LongWalk

I have sports club buddy who was a former colleague. He was a rising young manager when we worked in the same department. He kept going up because he has an incisive witty intellect. Eventually he became the brand manager for a very famous subsidiary. The recently when I caught ride from training he told me that his life was very different. He had gotten sick of the office politics and they had bought him out. He already had 7 job offers but had narrowed it down to two.

He had a daughter about a year and half ago. I see her on Facebook. Cute smart kid. Unfortunately his marriage had imploded. They had confided to each other that they had fallen out of love.

"We haven't cheated on each other or anything like that," he sighed. They are going to MC once every ten days.

His wife was a secretary in our department. Young blond tall. Good looking? Sure but then in Sweden good looks are rather ordinary. She chased him rather obviously. She had those the sweet love smitten eyes all day long. Quite obviously she admired him because he was handsome athletic and could make everyone laugh.

Another colleague of mine was jealous. She had a boyfriend but she had a crush on this guy anyway. For a while the two couples were quite close friends. They even bought a small sail boat together. The jealous woman could not stand the Swedish blond girl, so the friendship ran out in sand. 

The jealous woman said to me over lunch more than once: "They will have a couple of kids and divorce." The Swedish woman was just too hick and insipid.

Peter (her boyfriend) said that even if the blond were standing naked in front of me he wouldn't get an erection. So dull was she. In fact, I think Peter knew about the jealousy and knew just what to say. Ah, people are complicated.

I think my ex colleague was a bit shocked that his wife could have fallen out of love. The wedding pictures on Facebook were dream-like if you are into that sort of expensive yet elegant scene.

What is going to happen to this couple with their little daughter? I can understand that this "uncomplicated" woman who landed this perfect husband could have been disappointed. After the sex crazy passion period passed, she probably became more of a nag and he avoided meeting her needs. A top business executive is always racing around. There are always entertaining men and women engaging him.

I suspect that he is going to make an effort to woo her back in part because he is a realistic person. Just moving on to a new woman and new relationship will not necessarily get him anywhere in his opinion. Why not save whatever was good and try to make new and better? Will he succeed? I suppose he has a chance because he is smart and goal oriented.

Can they fall back in love? Do people? I figure it can happen. You have work at it. At some point they have to want to spend hours together, banging each other's brains out, otherwise what's the point? She has family so there are plenty of willing babysitters.

Your marriage might be similar to theirs in someways, although you are more equals.

Is your husband a good person?

Does he mean well. His cruelty towards you seems to be the actions of social incompetent who blurts things out, but is he a dark-hearted fellow? Is his nature kind? You need to be honest about this. 

Okay, I wrote this before your last post. Some of it has been answered. 

Masturbation cannot beat good sex. If he is masturbating, you must have some idea when. Go round him in a T-shirt and pyjama bottoms. Don't let rejection turn you off. You need to be persistant to erase the notion that he is rejected. Tell him you think he is a good lover.


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## Mr.Fisty

Ah, after the romantic stage ends, most people don't have a clue on how to make a relationship work. Your partners flaws become more annoying, and it is easier to build resentment. Strong communication skills is needed to navigate this difficult time.

This is where people dig in and set their personal boundaries, and sometimes they have to learn to bend towards each other. No one should bend 100% on everything, it will breed resentment, and make you feel like losing a sense of self. A responsive communication style will help with dealing with issues. Reason why arguing does not work, is because one attacks, the other defends. Or both attack, and the message gets deflected elsewhere. Learning to communicate, and owning your own emotions is vital. Also sending a clear concise message and hoping that the other recieves the message as intended.


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## Anon1111

Both you and your husband sound like you are more interested in making the other person come to your side than resolving things.

I get that you have a great deal of resentment. He sounds like he does too. But this is getting you no where.

Step one is just accepting that both of you have done a lot of bad hurtful things to the other. Stop trying to quantify it and rank who is worse (here is a hint: each of you thinks the other is worse).

Step two is to focus on what the other does right. Every day. Notice what your husband does right. Acknowledge it. Focus on that, even if it is small. 

Step three is to notice what YOU are doing wrong. Are you really the best wife you can be? If you were with another man, would you treat him the way you treat your husband. Put the past to the side and think about the kind of person you want to be. Do you want to be defined by your resentments?


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## Anon1111

By the way, if your husband were posting here, I would tell him the exact same thing.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> I have sports club buddy who was a former colleague. He was a rising young manager when we worked in the same department. He kept going up because he has an incisive witty intellect. Eventually he became the brand manager for a very famous subsidiary. The recently when I caught ride from training he told me that his life was very different. He had gotten sick of the office politics and they had bought him out. He already had 7 job offers but had narrowed it down to two.
> 
> He had a daughter about a year and half ago. I see her on Facebook. Cute smart kid. Unfortunately his marriage had imploded. They had confided to each other that they had fallen out of love.
> 
> "We haven't cheated on each other or anything like that," he sighed. They are going to MC once every ten days.
> 
> His wife was a secretary in our department. Young blond tall. Good looking? Sure but then in Sweden good looks are rather ordinary. She chased him rather obviously. She had those the sweet love smitten eyes all day long. Quite obviously she admired him because he was handsome athletic and could make everyone laugh.
> 
> Another colleague of mine was jealous. She had a boyfriend but she had a crush on this guy anyway. For a while the two couples were quite close friends. They even bought a small sail boat together. The jealous woman could not stand the Swedish blond girl, so the friendship ran out in sand.
> 
> The jealous woman said to me over lunch more than once: "They will have a couple of kids and divorce." The Swedish woman was just too hick and insipid.
> 
> Peter (her boyfriend) said that even if the blond were standing naked in front of me he wouldn't get an erection. So dull was she. In fact, I think Peter knew about the jealousy and knew just what to say. Ah, people are complicated.
> 
> I think my ex colleague was a bit shocked that his wife could have fallen out of love. The wedding pictures on Facebook were dream-like if you are into that sort of expensive yet elegant scene.
> 
> What is going to happen to this couple with their little daughter? I can understand that this "uncomplicated" woman who landed this perfect husband could have been disappointed. After the sex crazy passion period passed, she probably became more of a nag and he avoided meeting her needs. A top business executive is always racing around. There are always entertaining men and women engaging him.
> 
> I suspect that he is going to make an effort to woo her back in part because he is a realistic person. Just moving on to a new woman and new relationship will not necessarily get him anywhere in his opinion. Why not save whatever was good and try to make new and better? Will he succeed? I suppose he has a chance because he is smart and goal oriented.
> 
> Can they fall back in love? Do people? I figure it can happen. You have work at it. At some point they have to want to spend hours together, banging each other's brains out, otherwise what's the point? She has family so there are plenty of willing babysitters.
> 
> Your marriage might be similar to theirs in someways, although you are more equals.
> 
> Is your husband a good person?
> 
> Does he mean well. His cruelty towards you seems to be the actions of social incompetent who blurts things out, but is he a dark-hearted fellow? Is his nature kind? You need to be honest about this.
> 
> Okay, I wrote this before your last post. Some of it has been answered.
> 
> Masturbation cannot beat good sex. If he is masturbating, you must have some idea when. Go round him in a T-shirt and pyjama bottoms. Don't let rejection turn you off. You need to be persistant to erase the notion that he is rejected. Tell him you think he is a good lover.


Guess what? Your ex- colleague is a mirror image of my husband. He is very witty and intelligent. He took on a lot of managerial roles at a very young age. He leads and trains people of all ages. He has an assertive and strong personality. He says what he means and never tries to sugar coat things. He is well admired at work from his colleages and his higher managers. He is never ashamed to speak up and is constantly required to speak in public. This is mainly why I fell in love with him. This is where we are different. I am an outgoing person but I don't like to be under the spotlight. When we met we were both in college. Him being 3years older than me. But it was very clear to me how intelligent and smart he is. 

He travels all over the world with his work. He sees and interacts with all types of women. I'm sure he wonders how on earth did his wife fall out of love with him. It's too difficult for him to start over with the pace of life he is living. He has a wife and 3 kids and a nice stable home and doesn't think it is worth it to start over. He could never care for the kids on his own because he is never home. So practically leaving me will ultimately mean leaving his kids too. Thats the way I see it.

He busts his a** off at work to provide for us. Maybe thats why I never think of leaving him. Cuz i really appreciate how hard he is working for us. Though sometimes when i think of it, even if I wasn't in his life he would work just as hard cause that's how he is wired. Just to make things clear, I am not staying with him for the financial stabilty he provides, I am staying with him because he does his best to try and provide for us. I do give him loads of credit for this.

I do know that he is genuinely a kind hearted guy. He doesn't know how to play with words. He is Not a player. He is a straight forward person. This could be good and bad. Good as It makes me really trust him not to go around flirting with girls when he spends days and weeks away from me in hotel rooms in other countries where I could never catch him cheating even if did. Bad because he never knows what to say to me to make me feel good. He lacks a lot in this area. I would love him to be more flirty and aggressive with me. I tried telling him this and I even pointed him to sites about how alpha men respond to their wives in may situations but he was never interested. He is content with the way he is and I don't think he really wants to change. I don't push this issue anymore and i'm trying to make peace with it and accept that this is the way he will always be.

He does tend to think about his work much more than he thinks about his family and how to improve things between us. He can't be too bothered. He has a lot on his plate already. He feels that home is the place he should disconnect completely and that he shouldn't be required to put more efforts into anything. What's the name for this?? A workaholic perhaps.

And to his credit, he never ever rejected me when I came to him for sex. It's just that if I don't initiate we could go for months without having sex. The longest we have gone is 9 months. Our *best* times being twice or three times a week. And these are extremely rare. He never raised the issue that he is not satisfied with our sex life. It's always me who does. And when I do it is ALWAYS the same response. That he has a very high drive and that I don't understand him and push him away by my actions. So I "force" him to masturbate. I don't bite this. If you're very unsatisfied how is it that you never bring it up? I read a lot on this topic and never once did I come across a man -who has a very high drive and knows that his wife is more than willing to have sex with him- but never initiated sex. Lately, I never missed an opportunity to criticize him in his lack of sex drive. I know this isn't a smart thing to do , but I just can't hold back my emotions anymore. It really does make him a "less of a man" in my eyes. He has no issues performing andI admit he does have stamina, so why is he holding back?! If he was having any kinds of issues I would definately stay by his side, assure him and help him. But he is perfectly normal. So WHY is he holding back?! This really frustrates me. 

Sorry this turned out too long


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> This is where people dig in and set their personal boundaries, and sometimes they have to learn to bend towards each other. No one should bend 100% on everything, it will breed resentment, and make you feel like losing a sense of self. A responsive communication style will help with dealing with issues. Reason why arguing does not work, is because one attacks, the other defends. Or both attack, and the message gets deflected elsewhere. Learning to communicate, and owning your own emotions is vital. Also sending a clear concise message and hoping that the other recieves the message as intended.


 Mr.Fisty, this is spot on. This is how I believe we both failed our marriage. In the beginning of our relationship we used to argue a lot. I attack and he defends or he attacks and I defend. Then it progressed into both of us attacking at the same time and no one cared to "listen". Then we would forget what it is we were actually fighting about and deal with the aftermass of the fight, The hurtful things that were said. We would give each other the silent treatment for days and days and then one of us would finally collapse and we would either reconcile or start a brand new fight. 

This is how our marriage operated for a few years and then we both slowly and gradually started to lose hope and we entered into the phase of "rugsweeping" to keep the peace between us. We had fewer fights, but the resentment between us was starting to pile up till it became tremendous. There was so much strain already in our relationship. 

Now we would both ignore what happens, roll our eyes and silently add this onto the long list of disappointments. 

I really hope I could find a good MC who would help us to break this cycle and tell us how we should deal with situations effectively as they come up without one of us bending completely to the other.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Anon1111 said:


> Both you and your husband sound like you are more interested in making the other person come to your side than resolving things.
> 
> I get that you have a great deal of resentment. He sounds like he does too. But this is getting you no where.
> 
> Step one is just accepting that both of you have done a lot of bad hurtful things to the other. Stop trying to quantify it and rank who is worse (here is a hint: each of you thinks the other is worse).
> 
> Step two is to focus on what the other does right. Every day. Notice what your husband does right. Acknowledge it. Focus on that, even if it is small.
> 
> Step three is to notice what YOU are doing wrong. Are you really the best wife you can be? If you were with another man, would you treat him the way you treat your husband. Put the past to the side and think about the kind of person you want to be. Do you want to be defined by your resentments?


Yeah it takes two to tango. As I read the thread all over again, I did find a pattern where I sometimes tend to victimize myself and paint him as the bad guy. 

Deep down I know this is not true and this is why I am not ready to quit. I did as much damage to this relationship as he did. But this thread really did benefit me. I had a lot of things going on in my mind at the same time and I lost track of what I really wanted and what I wanted to change. Writing them down arranged my thoughts and helped me see where we have gone wrong. I know when you're reading this you'd get the hint that I'm just repeating myself and I'm trying to let everyone side with me. But the truth is that I'm trying to say the positives and negative of our relationship as truthfully as I can.

I secretly wish that someday my husband would actually read this and chime in with his other side of the story. I'm sure when I read his thoughts written down it will start to make alot more sense. Then you guys could really help us rebuild our marriage. But this is just my wishful thinking. He would never even care to come to a site like this. Let alone write down his thoughts. He doesn't need this site. He is too good for it.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Calling the 'love experts'*



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Yeah it takes two to tango. As I read the thread all over again, I did find a pattern where I sometimes tend to victimize myself and paint him as the bad guy.
> 
> Deep down I know this is not true and this is why I am not ready to quit. I did as much damage to this relationship as he did. But this thread really did benefit me. I had a lot of things going on in my mind at the same time and I lost track of what I really wanted and what I wanted to change. Writing them down arranged my thoughts and helped me see where we have gone wrong. I know when you're reading this you'd get the hint that I'm just repeating myself and I'm trying to let everyone side with me. But the truth is that I'm trying to say the positives and negative of our relationship as truthfully as I can.
> 
> I secretly wish that someday my husband would actually read this and chime in with his other side of the story. I'm sure when I read his thoughts written down it will start to make alot more sense. Then you guys could really help us rebuild our marriage. But this is just my wishful thinking. He would never even care to come to a site like this. Let alone write down his thoughts. He doesn't need this site. He is too good for it.


You could always email him the link with a simple message:

Let me know when you are ready to work with me to fix this.

Although I think you already have yourself o n a trajectory with leaning on him for MC.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Anon1111 said:


> Do you want to be defined by your resentments?


No, definately not. But I just want to hear a "heartfelt apology" from him about certain situations. For some reason some of them have caused a scar in my heart. I can't forget that he left me alone while giving birth to my son alone in a strange country and for the next two days at my hospital stay. I had no friends or family with me and I was so scared and vulnerable. those post pregnancy hormones really mess with your mind.

You know major stuff like that is not easy to forget. And it doesn't help when all he said was a "sorry I don't know how I did that". And when these major situations Happen one after the other, with the same outcome, they really mess you up. 

I really need to let them go, but I can't without knowing he really means he is sorry. That if the same situation was to happen again he would deal with it in a different way. I need to feel safe with him. I need to know he will stand by my side no matter what.

Only if this happens will I be able to let them go.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> You could always email him the link with a simple message:
> 
> Let me know when you are ready to work with me to fix this.


I might do it at some point down the line. But i am not ready to let him read this now. I need a safe place to vent. Knowing him, he would get very angry that I was talking to strangers about him. Even if it's online.
Not even sure he would take the time to read it. You know, his time is too precious to spend on such nonsense.


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## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> You could always email him the link with a simple message:
> 
> Let me know when you are ready to work with me to fix this.
> 
> Although I think you already have yourself o n a trajectory with leaning on him for MC.


I fully agree. He only interacts with strong personalities or those he can subdue. You started out that way but, being a less extroverted person, it quickly wore you down to the shell of a person you are now. BTDT. I don't think you're capable of really telling how you feel because you'll let him derail it all - so he doesn't have to hear what's wrong with him - with anger, derision, deflection, or just plain going to sleep.

Speaking of which, do you know what my H does when I DO get the nerve to tell him what's making me unhappy? He goes to sit on the couch and falls asleep.

Print out the thread and hand it to him. Say "Here's where I'm at. If you don't want me to leave - cos that's where I'm headed - read it and FIND a way to get into therapy with me." He'll finally see how miserable you are.

I want to point out though, that I did that a couple years ago - FINALLY got so fed up that I said "MC or divorce." He immediately agreed because he doesn't want to lose me, like yours doesn't. But when he started going, he gave lip service and when he came home did absolutely NOTHING to change. Because you can't make someone want to change. When I finally chewed our MC out, after he'd stopped going to MC, she told me "Turnera, you know you can't change him. Stop trying. Instead, start learning how to change YOU. Learn to speak up. Learn to not need his approval. Learn to be ok when he manipulates and ignore it. Once YOU change, he'll have no choice but to change, too.

In other words, this isn't about him. It's about you. 

That said, the LB and EN questionnaires CAN help things if he says he's willing to do them. If I had to give you a package of advice, fill out the LB, give him his to fill out and fix what he says you do (you can't make him fix HIS stuff but if he sees you doing it, he may too), schedule the MC and start going whether he goes or not, read HNHN and put it into practice, and print this out and hand it to him so he sees how serious it is and so he sees how OTHER people perceive him.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> I want to point out though, that I did that a couple years ago - FINALLY got so fed up that I said "MC or divorce." He immediately agreed because he doesn't want to lose me, like yours doesn't. But when he started going, he gave lip service and when he came home did absolutely NOTHING to change. Because you can't make someone want to change. When I finally chewed our MC out, after he'd stopped going to MC, she told me "Turnera, you know you can't change him. Stop trying. Instead, start learning how to change YOU. Learn to speak up. Learn to not need his approval. Learn to be ok when he manipulates and ignore it. Once YOU change, he'll have no choice but to change, too.
> 
> In other words, this isn't about him. It's about you.


This is exactly what I fear. That if I threaten divorce or MC, he might give in and go with me, but he will do nothing to change. He will do it as in "add this to the list of good things I do for you". I once went to a counselor and she gave me the same advise when he refused to along with me. She told me that I should quit trying to believe that he will ever change. That I should try to be happy without him. I tried to do that, but then there's always this lingering feeling that a huge thing is missing in my life.


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## LongWalk

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> No, definately not. But I just want to hear a "heartfelt apology" from him about certain situations. For some reason some of them have caused a scar in my heart. I can't forget that he left me alone while giving birth to my son alone in a strange country and for the next two days at my hospital stay. I had no friends or family with me and I was so scared and vulnerable. those post pregnancy hormones really mess with your mind.
> 
> *This is definitely a major fail.*
> 
> You know major stuff like that is not easy to forget. And it doesn't help when all he said was a "sorry I don't know how I did that". And when these major situations Happen one after the other, with the same outcome, they really mess you up.
> 
> I really need to let them go, but I can't without knowing he really means he is sorry. That if the same situation was to happen again he would deal with it in a different way. I need to feel safe with him. I need to know he will stand by my side no matter what.
> 
> Only if this happens will I be able to let them go.


*Your feelings are very rational. You don't have to justify them. This is why women put their men through so-called shxt tests. Your husband wants to rug sweep. However, you realize that if were the other way, for example, you failed to show up where you supposed to for some important agreed upon event, what would his reaction be? Probably very negative. He, too, would lose trust.

I don't know if it would help but could you write a little piece on your feelings in the hospital? How does it feel to have your body undergo such a change. Perhaps if you write something that is artistic and honest, it will be cathartic. Perhaps this will help you to heal without him. Maybe you could write about how your imagined he might address this experience and how you realized he could not.

Perhaps you could share it with him. Perhaps you should not.

I suspect that sometimes in your conflicts you are dignified and sometimes not. The undignified you loses his respect. The dignified you shames and makes him feel inadequate. You need to find an alternative way or relating – one that is positive.

The idea of your husband photographing you somehow strikes me as a way to forcing to take in your emotional reality. In addition to nudes, life activities, you could also pose in work clothes, made up as if you were going to a job interview or on a date. You need not describe the themes but merely let him perceive you in all you complications.

Does he want you to be uncomplicated?*


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## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> *Your feelings are very rational. You don't have to justify them. This is why women put their men through so-called shxt tests. Your husband wants to rug sweep. However, you realize that if were the other way, for example, you failed to show up where you supposed to for some important agreed upon event, what would his reaction be? Probably very negative. He, too, would lose trust.*


Yes he gets very angry and disappointed if I decline a plan he made for us because there are other things that have to be done. And then I either give up whatever it is I had to do or apologize over and over again. If the tables were turned in the hospital situation , he will be very very mad and unforgiving. I tried reasoning with him but he is very good at deflecting my thoughts one way or the other.



> I don't know if it would help but could you write a little piece on your feelings in the hospital? How does it feel to have your body undergo such a change. Perhaps if you write something that is artistic and honest, it will be cathartic. Perhaps this will help you to heal without him. Maybe you could write about how your imagined he might address this experience and how you realized he could not.
> 
> Perhaps you could share it with him. Perhaps you should not.


This is good advice. I think writing it down will help clear my head and relax me a bit. Maybe if he sees it written down he will have enough time alone to process it and actually validate my feelings. I will definately start with this first as it is causing me the most resentment.



> I suspect that sometimes in your conflicts you are dignified and sometimes not. The undignified you loses his respect. The dignified you shames and makes him feel inadequate. You need to find an alternative way or relating – one that is positive.


Makes sense. But I don't quite understand how I could change this?



> The idea of your husband photographing you somehow strikes me as a way to forcing to take in your emotional reality. In addition to nudes, life activities, you could also pose in work clothes, made up as if you were going to a job interview or on a date. You need not describe the themes but merely let him perceive you in all you complications.
> 
> Does he want you to be uncomplicated?


Iam not sure he would entertain the idea of posing in different clothes and such. He is not really into photographing "people". He did show interest in nude photography specifically. I could bring it up and see If this is something he'd like to explore. Though I think he'll be very surprised if I mention this. He says I'm not creative enough and he would like me to ease up a bit.
But I don't think I'm ready for this step yet. I would like us to start working on our problems first then we could introduce these ideas slowly to "break the ice". 

My plan now is to print out the Love Blusters questionaire and fill it up and wait till Friday as I will barely see him this week due to his hectic work schedule. During this time I'll try to write my thoughts on the specific situations that way so heavily on my heart and give it to him Along with his copy of LB questionaire on friday. And we'll discuss them on the weekend. And then I will go from there.


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## Anon1111

He sounds like he really f'd up. It would be understandable if you decided that you could not forgive him. But if you want to save your marriage you will have to. It might not be worth saving- that's up to you, of course. 

I can tell you in my own marriage we went around and around in circles for years. Holding onto resentment. It is the hardest thing to let that go. I still get sucked back in by it. You have to be aware that it is a trap- nothing good comes from it. either way if you want to stay together or break up, holding on to that does nothing good.


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## MachoMcCoy

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> He told me the solution is simple, that if I would just do the things He told me to do our life will be much better.


Someone earlier in this post, I forget who, said your husband has NO CLUE what the problem is. I don't know why that above statement made me think of it.




Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I am at a loss as to what my next step should be. Should I throw in an ultimatum now?Either we go to MC or I leave?


I think it was the same person who said SOMETHING like that. Only I also believe he said words are cheap, and I tend to agree. Didn't he agree to some things in the past and not follow through? I wonder why. Maybe because he just needs to agree to your words then settle back into his comfort zone. I wonder why he would do that. I mean you THREATENED consequences before, right? Maybe if you actually SHOWED him the consequences to his inaction, he might just listen.



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Now whatever good approach he takes just means nothing to me.


Trigger time for the macho man. Trying to rekindle things with my wife. Months and months of good. Went on a nice date to the movies one night. We get home and I make a comment. A joke. She took it wrong. Thought it was the old Macho Man coming back. Went OFF on me. That's when I knew it was over for good. No matter how much I'd show her how I'd changed, "Bad Macho" would ALWAYS be lying dormant. She will never trust me again. Time to throw in the towel.

I fear you are already there. Game is probably over for you.

Turnera had good advice earlier about writing that letter. Do it and leave it on the fridge with a magnet. Tell him you're at the airport. You tried, but it's not working. Fly home.

That is the ONLY way he will get the message. And if he doesn't? Well here's some good news: It's the SAME SOLUTION!

Sounds like a no-brainer to me. You are 29. Your WHOLE LIFE is ahead of you. And you are miserable and alone in a middle eastern hellhole. I think it was also that same smart guy who earlier in this thread said it's time to DO! No more questionaires. No more talking.


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## Mr.Fisty

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> This is exactly what I fear. That if I threaten divorce or MC, he might give in and go with me, but he will do nothing to change. He will do it as in "add this to the list of good things I do for you". I once went to a counselor and she gave me the same advise when he refused to along with me. She told me that I should quit trying to believe that he will ever change. That I should try to be happy without him. I tried to do that, but then there's always this lingering feeling that a huge thing is missing in my life.



The sense of loss you feel, is the identity you created as a couple and family. It is the loss of the investment you placed physically, and emotionally into this construct. I think it is better for you to detach further. Grieve now, so you can heal. It doesn't mean don't work on it, but it does mean that the old relationship is over.

You may have to leave him before he changes, and this is actually common. People don't want to change until a catastrophic event happens. This will bring the issues forefront and he can no longer run away from the issues. He has built a wall, and the only way to solve the issues is to take down the walls. Inside his walls, he can't get a clear picture of your state of unhappiness. I am sure he is somewhat aware, but I bet you if you handed him divorce papers, he will be shock and did not see it coming. It is a common reaction also.

Keep working on yourself, and learn to let go of anger and resentment. You don't want to be in an emotional wall . Things inside the wall will fester and branch out to affect the rest of your life. You may become angry easier, and things will annoy you even more. So keep working on yourself, and learn to be happy without him. Detach, because you can't keep slamming yourself against his wall. It will only breed more of the negative inside you. Find a way to make your life fulfilling without him in it. If things don't work out, and if he does not work on himself, you would be ready to move on faster.

If he does work on himself, still keep a detach mentality for a certain period of time. Keep re-enforcing that good behavior. Get it hard wired into him.


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## LongWalk

When asked


> I suspect that sometimes in your conflicts you are dignified and sometimes not. The undignified you loses his respect. The dignified you shames and makes him feel inadequate. You need to find an alternative way or relating – one that is positive.


 you replied


> Makes sense. But I don't quite understand how I could change this?


Right now your husband feels that you are very distant. The problem is that if you reduce the tension to promote communication, he may just feel that life is okay. There is no need for change. Once you detect the permanence of the status quo you become quietly angry. He perceives this and concludes that you are "faking" it.

Your husband being very absorbed by work creates a feeling of restriction. If marriage and family life is also constricting, it explains why he loses himself in hobby activities. He needs individual space. You need to give him this but he needs to connect meaningfully with you. It cannot be just sex.

He needs to consider you an interesting person. Your observations about life should be of interest to him, not because he is afraid of the consequences of ignoring you, but because he genuinely is enjoys you. If someone asked him what he likes doing, you would want him to spontaneously reply, "I like being with my wife even if we are not doing something special."


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## Blonde

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Our communication sucked at that time, and over the years i started to get frustrated and started hating sex with him more and more. He never complained even when we went for months at a time without having sex. i never rejected him, he simply didn't come to me. He would resent me, pull away and masturbate. I admit at some point I said some very hurtful things but i was in a bad place. One day i just reached a breaking point and told him that i can't continue like this, that the lack of sex made him not "man enough" in my eyes. Needless to say, our relationship totally broke up after this. We separated for 3 months. He was deeply hurt by what i said, pulled away completely and it was something he never forgot to this day. I really regret saying this but it was what i was really feeling at the time. But when we seperated we both knew we can't live without each other. I called him and apologized and we had endless hours of conversations, tears and blame going back and forth. Anyways we decided to get back together.
> 
> After that the sex between us became almost non-existant. He rarely initiated sex, but he never turned me down. As time passed, i stopped initiating altogether as i like the more aggressive man and sex was not doing it much for me either. I remember the countless times I've cried in the shower after having sex. I decided it was just not worth it, but still i never turn him down. He also decided that it isn't worth the hassle and to this day masturbates daily which really really hurts me as he chooses this over me. When we talk about it, it's just the same conversation over and over again. He says that he wants me everyday but that my actions put him off. Its a vicious cycle and it is hopeless.


I'm not sure why you apologized to him or feel guilty over being honest? To me, all of the above reads that he is the problem. He is addicted to masturbation (porn?) and you make it really convenient to blame you for it by being so apologetic over existing and having needs... 

YOU should get into IC and work on growing a backbone and healing.

(Are you leaving anything out? Did you cheat on him in any way before or during the separation?)


Me'N'My'Girl said:


> No, definately not. But I just want to hear a "heartfelt apology" from him about certain situations. For some reason some of them have caused a scar in my heart. I can't forget that he left me alone while giving birth to my son alone in a strange country and for the next two days at my hospital stay. I had no friends or family with me and I was so scared and vulnerable. those post pregnancy hormones really mess with your mind.


Deja vu! My H did the SAME THING, abandoned me in the hospital after giving birth in a foreign country where I didn't speak the language. Only in my H's case, it was the girl child that was the issue. Before he abandoned me, he attended the birth and his reaction was "YOU got YOURSELF another girl" (insert contemptuous spit- who wants a GIRL?)

Anyway that daughter is 26 now and I don't feel triggered and hurt by it anymore but it is something one never ever forgets... Multiply that by countless other episodes of shaming and rejecting messages over the course of a M (sigh)

I'm old enough to be your mother and my motherly advice to you would be to confront it very hard and very honestly NOW and if he doesn't make some changes, put him behind you.

Please look into Marriage Help Program For Couples

BTW, I was put off by your avatar and all the sex talk in your first post. Assumed that you might be cheating on him or fishing do do so. What is up with that avatar?  Is that one of your H's photos?


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## turnera

Two things. First, it's documented that men ARE simple. They really DON'T know how to do what women want sometimes. I know my H doesn't. He NEEDS me to be extremely specific so he can be what I want. And he NEEDS me to hold him 100% accountable if he isn't. And tell him WHY.

My H did one of his "things" the other day. He told me not to look in the trunk cos his Christmas presents were in there. Well about 3 hours later he was freaking out because he couldn't find his work laptop, so we were scouring the house for it. Went out to the car. I'd forgotten what he said about the trunk, and I opened it and lifted it - for all of 2 seconds; I have NO idea what was in because as soon as the lid started rising, I remembered what he said and closed it immediately. But by then he was at the trunk and FURIOUS at me. Scrunched up his face, growled, clenched his fists, and then did his signature big.dramatic.sigh. My inner lizard took off, scared, mad, ashamed, and I stormed inside, slammed doors, all to deflect his anger I knew was coming. It's how I protect myself from him - get mad, too. And disappear.

So I did two things you need to not do - not handle things correctly, as LW said, and not address the truth. I SHOULD have stood there calmly and said 'do you realize you just scared me? No? Well, you did. Please stop making this reaction to a minor thing. And for the record, I DID finally remember what you said and closed the door; and I would never intentionally look at what you bought - so your anger was misplaced. Can we agree that your reaction was over the top?'

Now, I did manage to bring it up last night, in the car. I politely said 'when you have that reaction, it scares me. I really wish we didn't keep having these situation.'

And guess what? Not 2 hours later, we went to a restaurant and came out, and someone had broken into our car and stolen the stuff in the back seat. Not once did he get angry like he used to. He WANTS to please me, he WANTS to not upset me. And he remembered what I told him, and no anger. In fact, at one point he said something that he'd used to expand into blaming me for it all, he saw me get tearful and turn away, and he came over and apologized! Said he didn't mean it that way!

Who IS this man?

But it took me telling him the truth, NOT attacking him, and giving him a chance to make up for it and prove himself. He was wonderful. But I'd have had to tell him the truth first.


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## turnera

LongWalk said:


> He needs to consider you an interesting person. Your observations about life should be of interest to him, not because he is afraid of the consequences of ignoring you, but because he genuinely is enjoys you. If someone asked him what he likes doing, you would want him to spontaneously reply, "I like being with my wife even if we are not doing something special."


Psychologically speaking, this is key. Especially for a strong personality like him. He only respects strong people. So be strong. Have your own life. Do stuff you can tell him about. Keep him wondering if your life is so full you just might not need him. Not to tease him but to (1) show him you CAN survive without him and (2) show YOU that you can survive without him.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Earlier in the thread I mentioned that we separated once. Well that time I was going back home for holidays. Things were really bad between us and at that time I knew I couldn't take it anymore. When he and the kids said their goodbyes at the airport, I didn't even look at him. I couldn't take it anymore. I had other plans. After he left, I sent him a long long email. I had carefully written it previously. I wrote everything I felt. Every disappointment. Every single detail. I told him That he is not man enough For me. That I no longer feel any love for him. That I'm too young to stay miserable for the rest of my life. That I deserve much better than this.I told him to please just leave me alone. I moved in with my mother and told my family that it is over between us and I'm getting a divorce. 

The thing is, I know my H. His ego is the most important thing to him. Touch his ego, and you're gone. I knew what words hurted him and I used every single one of them to actually "destroy" it. I was so angry. I wanted him to feel the magnitude of pain I'm feeling. And I knew this was the only way to do it. Looking back, I was probably taking my revenge. And yes, I do realize I sound very evil. 

Seeing how miserable and depressed I was, my family fully supported me. told me that they will stand by my side and support me till The very end. For the first time, I felt free and liberated. Everything was different. I could finally breathe. I laughed for the first time in months. 

But this was just the beginning. I never heard from him for months. He would just call my mom and ask her if he could talk to the kids. He would speak with them for hours and hang up. Never once did he ask them about me. I didn't care at the start. I remember my eldest asking me over and over again why don't we talk anymore. I started planning my life without him. 

As time passed I noticed a heavy feeling welling up in my heart. I found myself thinking of him more and more. Wondering how he could let go of everything without even trying. My kids were constantly asking when would they be able do see their daddy. I was preoccupied, thinking of him every single second of the day. And for the first time in months I cried. I was so angry for so long that I lost the ability to cry. I really missed him at that point, stalking his facebook page, wondering what he was up to. I thought he totally forgot about me.

Then one day I finally got a call from one of our mutual friends.She is much closer to me though. She told me that my H called her and asked her to meet up. She said that my H looked like sh*t and he was so miserable. He told her that we're having some problems and asked her to call me and see how I was doing. He told her that he doesn't want me to know that he actually called her. But she said he was so miserable that she had to tell me.I was so vulnerable and at that point I had told her everything. I pretended to be strong infront of my family and I broke down and cried with her. After a month of this my husband and I finally talked. I remember this intense feeling of happiness and love I felt when I heard his voice. But i hid this from him well. I did realize at that point that I love him and I'm definately not ready for us divorcing. But I knew I shouldn't give in so easily. He was so miserable and hurt. I did my best to make him understand that I will not tolerate this behaviour any longer. I did apologize for saying the hurtful things I did, but I also told him that I meant every word I said at that time. We laid rules and made promises and consequences for breaking them. I read alot of books, online articles and threads here on TAM. I spent almost all of my time reading and sending him articles that were relative to our situation. He told me he was reading everything and changing himself blah blah blah...

A few months later, I found myself ready to go back to him. Things were going fine, not perfect, but ok. Slowly and steadily, he started repeating the same old mistakes and a few months in, we were back to square one. I realize it was my fault that I let everything slip back to how they were. I thought I had everything under control and there was no way I will allow him to hurt me again. I thought I knew how to stand up for myself and see through every situation. Little did I know. Had I insisted on MC at that time, the outcome would've been different for sure. I don't know how I left it out. 

Point being, I left once. I wasn't acting. I sincerely wanted him out of my life for good. I did everything I could after that to make sure we don't slip back to our old ways. And we still did. I don't think it would be effective to leave and tell him that I want a divorce to scare him back into the marriage. It would just be a childish behaviour from my side.This time I won't leave unless I am really ready to give everyting up. This time if I leave, it won't be to make him see that I could live without him. This time IF I leave, I will leave FOREVER. No turning back no matter how hard I "crave" him at some point.

After writing this the situation does seem more hopeless to me. I tried everything in the book to make this work, except the MC. But somehow I don't think I can take the decision to leave. This time it is too difficult. I am not as angry as before to make an uncalculated step to leave. And I am not happy to actually stay. I don't really know what i want. And I know that you guys can't keep trying to help me when I don't really know what I want. Sorry for being "so complicated".


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## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> Psychologically speaking, this is key. Especially for a strong personality like him. He only respects strong people. So be strong. Have your own life. Do stuff you can tell him about. Keep him wondering if your life is so full you just might not need him. Not to tease him but to (1) show him you CAN survive without him and (2) show YOU that you can survive without him.


Yes, he told me before that a stunning woman with a 'less than average brain' would do nothing to him. It just occured to me that maybe the reason behind him not wanting me to work is just that. Could he unconciously like feeling "superior" to me? It must be much easier to manipulate me that way. 

But then isn't he contradicting himself? If he likes a woman with a strong personality, shouldn't he be encouraging me to work?

Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it.


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## jld

I have only read your last few posts, OP, but please do not ever be afraid to break down a man's ego. Honestly, I think it does them a favor. 

Need to start reading your thread . . .


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Blonde said:


> I'm not sure why you apologized to him or feel guilty over being honest? To me, all of the above reads that he is the problem. He is addicted to masturbation (porn?) and you make it really convenient to blame you for it by being so apologetic over existing and having needs...
> 
> YOU should get into IC and work on growing a backbone and healing.


I didn't apologize for feeling the way I did and saying it to him. I apologized because I said it in a very humiliating way. I never had a problem with voicing my concerns and problems. But, The way I said them was very demeaning. He always told me what really hurts him. And I used those exact same things to hurt him in the "deepest way" possible. This is why I apologized.



> . (Are you leaving anything out? Did you cheat on him in any way before or during the separation?)


Never have. Never will. 



> BTW, I was put off by your avatar and all the sex talk in your first post


I joined TAM a few years ago. At that time I thought that our sex life was our only problem. I joined here to gain some insight on sex related issues. Funny how everything changed now. 
I never cared to change it. However, I probably should. It no longer resembles me.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Anon1111 said:


> I can tell you in my own marriage we went around and around in circles for years. Holding onto resentment. It is the hardest thing to let that go. I still get sucked back in by it. You have to be aware that it is a trap- nothing good comes from it. either way if you want to stay together or break up, holding on to that does nothing good.


How did you let go?? This is what I'm really trying to figure out.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

MachoMcCoy said:


> I think it was the same person who said SOMETHING like that. Only I also believe he said words are cheap, and I tend to agree. Didn't he agree to some things in the past and not follow through? I wonder why. Maybe because he just needs to agree to your words then settle back into his comfort zone. I wonder why he would do that. I mean you THREATENED consequences before, right? Maybe if you actually SHOWED him the consequences to his inaction, he might just listen.


In light of what I said in my previous post, do you still think that showing him consequences will make a difference?




> Trigger time for the macho man. Trying to rekindle things with my wife. Months and months of good. Went on a nice date to the movies one night. We get home and I make a comment. A joke. She took it wrong. Thought it was the old Macho Man coming back. Went OFF on me. That's when I knew it was over for good. *No matter how much I'd show her how I'd changed, "Bad Macho" would ALWAYS be lying dormant. She will never trust me again.* Time to throw in the towel.
> 
> I fear you are already there. Game is probably over for you.


Ouch... I could never word it better. "Bad Mr. Me'N'My'Girl" would ALWAYS be lying dormant. I don't feel I can trust him again. 
Then WHY am I not ready to leave ?!


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> Keep working on yourself, and learn to let go of anger and resentment. You don't want to be in an emotional wall . Things inside the wall will fester and branch out to affect the rest of your life. You may become angry easier, and things will annoy you even more. So keep working on yourself, and learn to be happy without him. Detach, because you can't keep slamming yourself against his wall. It will only breed more of the negative inside you. Find a way to make your life fulfilling without him in it. If things don't work out, and if he does not work on himself, you would be ready to move on faster.
> 
> If he does work on himself, still keep a detach mentality for a certain period of time. Keep re-enforcing that good behavior. Get it hard wired into him.


I am starting to detach slowly. I started doing many of the things I have been putting off for a long time. I go to the gym daily. I take dancing classes. I meet up with friends regularly. I participate in charity stuff. My days are very busy now. Doing all this while taking care of 3 kids is pretty time consuming. Some days are easier than others. But I still have a long way to go.


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## DayOne

Hi, Me'N'MyGirl. I've spent this morning reading through your thread. Oof. It's hard reading, for me. There's a lot in your relationship I can identify with in the months (years) leading up to our D-Day. You could be describing my waw, and I unfortunately could be the guy. He11, I WAS that guy. 

His comment about your laugh really affected me. I'd pull the same cr*p on waw. UGH. And I hate myself for it. But I acknowledge it, now. I feel it. All the stupid cr*p. And I use it to push myself forwards.

Some of the responses you've had are really helpful. I'm seeing more ways I could be looking at myself, and how to change me.

I only wish I could help you, to help him to see how much you hurt, because of him. You seem, from your posts, to be an intelligent caring beautiful person. I have a feeling that your man would agree, if he wasn't so trapped in his own prison. I think he loves you still, but doesn't know how to escape his own jail cell.

A prison, I think, made of pain and denial of how he feels. His shields, his coping mechanism of pushing away those closest to him, that he fears can see him, the real him are troublingly familiar to me. I lived there, probably in the same cell block as your man. It wasn't until D-Day I finally busted out of my prison and decided to finally discover why I was there.

For me, it was due to a history of child abuse and being bullied through most of my life. I'm working through it and slowly healing.

But I was lucky. When 'my girl' finally quit and walked, it was the ignition point for me. My D-Day.

But, unfortunately for you, until your man decides to change, to allow himself to explore who he is and why he is, you're in for more of the same. 

Until that happens, IF it happens, my only advice to you is to do what you need to do to protect yourself and whatever is left of your 'self'. Don't let him extinguish who you are. From everything of you I've read in here, you so much more than you currently feel that you are.

I'm da*n *proud* of waw for leaving me. Strange, yes? She had the guts to say "enough!". She had to get out, for her. To save herself. From me. 

And you need to save yourself too.


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## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> But this was just the beginning. I never heard from him for months. He would just call my mom and ask her if he could talk to the kids. He would speak with them for hours and hang up. Never once did he ask them about me.


It worked, didn't it?

He knew EXACTLY how to hurt you. How to bring you to your knees. He knew that given your love for your kids, if he ignored THEM, you'd have been mad and strong. But if he ignored YOU, your self-doubt, low self esteem, would CRUSH YOU and get you to come to him begging on your knees, at least psychologically if not physically.

You came back a battered, shattered, shell of a person. Just like he wanted.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> If someone asked him what he likes doing, you would want him to spontaneously reply, *"I like being with my wife even if we are not doing something special."*


lol. I would instantly die of a heart attack if I ever heard anything like this coming from his mouth.


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## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> We laid rules and made promises and consequences for breaking them.


Like what?



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Slowly and steadily, *he started *repeating the same old mistakes and a few months in, we were back to square one. I realize it was *my fault* that I let everything slip back to how they were.


Explain how THAT - him repeating the same mistakes - was YOUR fault. I'm curious to see what your mind translates from HIS actions to YOUR fault.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

jld said:


> I have only read your last few posts, OP, but please do not ever be afraid to break down a man's ego. Honestly, I think it does them a favor.
> 
> Need to start reading your thread . . .


Yeah..I'm kind hearted by nature


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## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> After writing this the situation does seem more hopeless to me. *I tried everything* in the book to make this work, *except the MC*. But somehow I don't think I can take the decision to leave. This time it is too difficult. I am not as angry as before to make an uncalculated step to leave. And I am not happy to actually stay. I don't really know what i want. And I know that you guys can't keep trying to help me when I don't really know what I want. Sorry for being "so complicated".


Love how YOU use HIS debasement of you for your apology. Maybe the brainwashing is complete. 

I want to point out the bolded part. Do you even read what we write? At least half a dozen of us have told you - repeatedly - that MC won't work. That the only thing that will work is YOUR counseling. Not with him. Alone. The real problem here isn't him. He'll never change, he likes himself just fine.

The problem here is that YOU are beaten down, weak, with no self esteem. There's no way that you, in your state, can make this marriage work. Please believe me. BTDT. The only reason I'm even still alive at this point - I live in a perpetual state of just wishing either he or I would not wake up each day - is that our DD24 lives with us and is trying really hard to help him see what he's doing to me. To her. Because he does the same thing to her. But she loves herself too much to put up with it. 

Will he ever wake up? IDK. But I do know that after 35 years together, I simply don't have what it takes to take him on. I'm back in a state of cleaning out my stuff so I can leave, one way or another - walking out or carried out.

This will be you if you stay. 

Find a therapist and start going. Every single week. Print out this thread and send it to your IC before you show up. Fix YOU. Because even if he does love you, he won't/can't change if YOU don't fix YOUR low self esteem first.


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## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Yes, he told me before that a stunning woman with a 'less than average brain' would do nothing to him. It just occured to me that maybe the reason behind him not wanting me to work is just that. Could he unconciously like feeling "superior" to me? It must be much easier to manipulate me that way.
> 
> But then isn't he contradicting himself? If he likes a woman with a strong personality, shouldn't he be encouraging me to work?
> 
> Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it.


He LOVES strong women - at work. The ones he's probably screwing on the side. 

YOU, on the other hand, have to be what he wants - a scared, self-loathing shell of a human that will allow him to live his life the way he wants it.

Please get professional help.


----------



## jld

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Yeah..I'm kind hearted by nature


Why do you feel guilty?


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Ouch... I could never word it better. "Bad Mr. Me'N'My'Girl" would ALWAYS be lying dormant. I don't feel I can trust him again.
> Then WHY am I not ready to leave ?!


Because you have no self esteem left.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

DayOne said:


> Hi, Me'N'MyGirl. I've spent this morning reading through your thread. Oof. It's hard reading, for me. There's a lot in your relationship I can identify with in the months (years) leading up to our D-Day. You could be describing my waw, and I unfortunately could be the guy. He11, I WAS that guy.
> 
> His comment about your laugh really affected me. I'd pull the same cr*p on waw. UGH. And I hate myself for it. But I acknowledge it, now. I feel it. All the stupid cr*p. And I use it to push myself forwards.
> 
> Some of the responses you've had are really helpful. I'm seeing more ways I could be looking at myself, and how to change me.
> 
> I only wish I could help you, to help him to see how much you hurt, because of him. You seem, from your posts, to be an intelligent caring beautiful person. I have a feeling that your man would agree, if he wasn't so trapped in his own prison. I think he loves you still, but doesn't know how to escape his own jail cell.
> 
> A prison, I think, made of pain and denial of how he feels. His shields, his coping mechanism of pushing away those closest to him, that he fears can see him, the real him are troublingly familiar to me. I lived there, probably in the same cell block as your man. It wasn't until D-Day I finally busted out of my prison and decided to finally discover why I was there.
> 
> For me, it was due to a history of child abuse and being bullied through most of my life. I'm working through it and slowly healing.
> 
> But I was lucky. When 'my girl' finally quit and walked, it was the ignition point for me. My D-Day.
> 
> But, unfortunately for you, until your man decides to change, to allow himself to explore who he is and why he is, you're in for more of the same.
> 
> Until that happens, IF it happens, my only advice to you is to do what you need to do to protect yourself and whatever is left of your 'self'. Don't let him extinguish who you are. From everything of you I've read in here, you so much more than you currently feel that you are.
> 
> I'm da*n *proud* of waw for leaving me. Strange, yes? She had the guts to say "enough!". She had to get out, for her. To save herself. From me.
> 
> And you need to save yourself too.


As much as this thread reminds me of my misery, it actually makes me feel good that maybe someone, somewhere could benefit from it somehow. Maybe someone would avoid falling into the same mistakes We did. Maybe someone would start taking actions knowing how deeply he is hurting his wife.

You are probably right. The only way my H would be proud of me and actually know my worth is if I leave him for good. But taking this decision while having three kids is not an easy task to do. I'm getting there.


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> But taking this decision while having three kids is not an easy task to do. I'm getting there.


Please don't try to use that old excuse. We're not dumb. WE KNOW that this has nothing to do with the kids and everything to do with YOU and your wanting to be with him.

And fwiw, you are HARMING your own children by allowing this to continue. Living with the same man as your H has really done a number on our DD24. I can't even list all the harm it's done her, watching that growing up and thinking it's normal.

Our kids grow up to BE us. 

So YOUR kids are either going to be angry narcissistic assh*les who hurt people and are too afraid to find out why, or sad pathetic doormats who FIND an angry narcissistic assh*le to marry and live in misery, and do the same thing to their OWN kids.

Unless YOU break the cycle.

Have you looked up therapists yet today?


----------



## DayOne

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Yeah..I'm kind hearted by nature



What is this? -> 

Please don't do this: -> 

You're putting yourself down when you something like that. And I for one won't accept it.

You're better than that. Find your strength. Let the Ladies on TAM help you. They are (and they'll argue like he11 to deny it!) smart, strong, amazing women who have, or are, travelling their own journeys and gaining strength from it.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> It worked, didn't it?
> 
> He knew EXACTLY how to hurt you. How to bring you to your knees. He knew that given your love for your kids, if he ignored THEM, you'd have been mad and strong. But if he ignored YOU, your self-doubt, low self esteem, would CRUSH YOU and get you to come to him begging on your knees, at least psychologically if not physically.
> 
> You came back a battered, shattered, shell of a person. Just like he wanted.


Oh my! Have I been so blind?! Yes, had he ignored the kids, there was NO WAY I was coming back to him. How didn't I see this?!! I always had it engraved in my mind that he is too kind of a person to try and manipulate me. I am starting to wonder, do I really know him?! Is he doing this on purpose?! 

I know for a fact that if I face him with these concerns he will tell me that I have totally lost my mind. That these are false accusations and how dare I even think of it when I've known him all these years.

I've always considered myself a smart person. How did I let him do that to me?! Do you think he's doing this unconsciously, or does he actually KNOW what he's doing?

I have to be going somewhere now. I will reply in more details when I come back.


----------



## DayOne

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> The only way my H would be proud of me and actually know my worth is if I leave him for good. But taking this decision while having three kids is not an easy task to do. I'm getting there.



I won't use the word 'wrong' because I think you've heard, or felt it, from him too many times. 

But the underscored sentence above is...... misguided. Thinking about how he feels, what he feels, about you is not the most appropriate train of thought.

It's about you. Not him. You're NOT going to change him. You will, at some point, have to accept that. Hopefully while there's still something of you left.


----------



## DayOne

Just a suggestion, but can i ask that you pick up a copy of "I Know I'm In There Somewhere". waw has started reading it and it's been helping her.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

jld said:


> Why do you feel guilty?


I have evil friends who treat their husbands in the worst possible way. Guess what? They have the most caring husbands!


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I know for a fact that if I face him with these concerns he will tell me that I have totally lost my mind. That these are false accusations and how dare I even think of it when I've known him all these years.


You're not listening. 

YOU DON'T FACE HIM WITH THESE CONCERNS.

Ok?

YOU don't tell HIM anything. 

YOU DO SOMETHING about it. Why would you tell the man stabbing you with a knife that he's stabbing you with a knife? He KNOWS he's stabbing you; HE DOESN'T CARE.

How do you stop being stabbed? Not by asking HIM to stop. You stop it by changing YOU.

Have you found a therapist yet?



> How did I let him do that to me?! Do you think he's doing this unconsciously, or does he actually KNOW what he's doing?


Um...WHO CARES? He's DOING it, isn't he? Once again, you're right back into "let me help him be better." Completely IGNORING 'how do I help ME.'

Girl, I just want to add...most abusers are NOT bad people, basically. They are FLAWED people who want what they want but don't know the healthy way to get it; so they use what they learned in childhood to manipulate, debase, control, degrade, isolate, and break down the other person so that the person WON'T or CAN'T leave them. It's all about the fear of you leaving and the willingness to crush YOU so you don't. That's not love.


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I have evil friends who treat their husbands in the worst possible way. Guess what? They have the most caring husbands!


Psychology 101 - the person who treats the other horribly gets the other person to crave their affection. Sound familiar?

In a HEALTHY marriage, neither one of you would treat the other badly.


----------



## DayOne

Ease up there, turnera. Your caps lock is taking over. Pounding on Me'N'My'Girl isn't going to help her. She gets that already in the real world. Dial it back and come at it again.


But she does have a point, Me'N'My'Girl. Even if it's becoming somewhat... strident. It's time to stop thinking about him, and focus on you.


----------



## turnera

DayOne said:


> Just a suggestion, but can i ask that you pick up a copy of "I Know I'm In There Somewhere". waw has started reading it and it's been helping her.


DayOne, thanks, I haven't seen that one. I've ordered it.


----------



## DayOne

turnera said:


> DayOne, thanks, I haven't seen that one. I've ordered it.



No problem. It was recommended reading when I asked for suggestions in Ladies Lounge.


----------



## Blonde

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Yes, he told me before that a stunning woman with a 'less than average brain' would do nothing to him. It just occured to me that maybe the reason behind him not wanting me to work is just that. Could he unconciously like feeling "superior" to me? It must be much easier to manipulate me that way.
> 
> But then isn't he contradicting himself? If he likes a woman with a strong personality, shouldn't he be encouraging me to work?
> 
> Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it.


Could it be his way of making sure you can't leave him? 

My H was very oppositional and unsupportive when I returned to school for an RN and I think it was fear that I would be empowered to leave him


----------



## LongWalk

Me'N'My'Girl,

This thread seems to be helping you sort things out.

It is tough being in the unreal society of Dubai. Another ex colleague of mine told me about the years she lived there, successfully selling residential property. One day she had a couple of clients from India who were contemplating placing all of their retirement savings into an apartment purchase. She suddenly woke up and decided that this was a dishonest business. She warned them against the deal and angered her bosses. She quit and left.

No doubt you meet many people who in limbo, having moved to Dubai to make money that they plan to take home. This limbo is a big factor in your calculations. If you leave your husband, do you stay in this artificial society or move back home?

What is best for you children? For you? For your husband?

You are at an age at which you can build a new life with another man and still have a relationship based on good chemistry. But time is working against you.

You consider your husband to be a pretty decent guy but your posts are flip-flopping. Is he good to you? Is he manipulative? There are many couples who have an unequal balance of power. There is a great deal of humiliation for party who is not in control. Having a perfect spouse is in some senses a pipe dream. Where are these perfect people? Aren't romantic fiction and pornography all about the lure of unreal partner?

You don't want to leap for divorce because you are realistic. Liberation from your husband will not guarantee a better life. We are not talking about ending an relationship with someone who is abusive, alcoholic, etc. In fact, given your husband's professional success, some woman will scoop him up as fast as she can. That woman may become stepmother to your children.

A lot depends on where you would go in the event of divorce.

You need more power within your relationship, not b!tch power but genuinely stronger from within. If you make this change from within, your husband will probably warm to you.

Get rid of the despair and panic. Cultivate calm. Decisions made carefully will better than hasty ones.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

I honestly thank you all for taking the time to reply to some stranger on the internet. You'll never know how your words are helping me, though sometimes it might not seem like it. I know how frustrating it is for you to repeat what you said over and over again with no action being taken. But it really is difficult when you are on the receiving end.

I have to admit that I am so overwhelmed and shocked. This thread took a huge turn. I honestly didn't think that my marriage is that f*cked up. I came here to find ways to improve my marriage. I really thought that all long term marriages are like that. That all the rocky phases in a marriage cause you to slowly drift apart till you reach this point. No big deal.

I ALWAYS perceived my husband as a sincere, kind hearted, emotionally balanced and brilliant man. Never once did I ever suspect that he would emotionally abuse or manipulate me. And to be honest it never felt like that. He always acted out of love and protection...or so I thought. Turnera, you told me that the brainwash is complete. This is the hardest thing I've read on this thread. I trusted him blindly and it is so difficult to learn that he was actually abusing this trust. 

So to be here now and hear that, well, I don't know... How was I so naiive?! How did I allow this to happen? He always had the best laid down answer to anything and everything. I honestly reached a point where I was TOTALLY convinced that I'm such a complicated person who didn't know what I want. He made me believe that. Earlier on in my marriage I knew what I wanted. I wanted a friend who would always stand by my side. Someone who enjoyed my company. I wanted to share with him whatever was on my mind and I wanted him to do the same. I wanted us to laugh together, cry together and enjoy our life together. I never asked for anything else. Yes. I was that simple. But all I got from him was distance and disappointments one after the other. I mean really?! Why is it so d*mn hard for men to understand this? Why is it such a difficult job for them? As resentments built up, I lost track. And now 13 years later I realized that he has been manipulating and brainwashing me all these years. Trying his best to shape me into the person he wants. I lost myself in the middle of all this. And he won. I accepted myself as a complicated person who doesn't know what on earth she wants. The fog is finally lifting.

The tremendous amount of pain I'm feeling now is unbelievable. I have a lot of emotions going on inside me. I'm angry and hurt. 

I think I need some time to mourn the loss of my H as I ever knew him.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> Me'N'My'Girl,
> 
> This thread seems to be helping you sort things out.
> 
> It is tough being in the unreal society of Dubai. Another ex colleague of mine told me about the years she lived there, successfully selling residential property. One day she had a couple of clients from India who were contemplating placing all of their retirement savings into an apartment purchase. She suddenly woke up and decided that this was a dishonest business. She warned them against the deal and angered her bosses. She quit and left.
> 
> No doubt you meet many people who in limbo, having moved to Dubai to make money that they plan to take home. This limbo is a big factor in your calculations. If you leave your husband, do you stay in this artificial society or move back home?
> 
> What is best for you children? For you? For your husband?
> 
> You are at an age at which you can build a new life with another man and still have a relationship based on good chemistry. But time is working against you.
> 
> You consider your husband to be a pretty decent guy but your posts are flip-flopping. Is he good to you? Is he manipulative? There are many couples who have an unequal balance of power. There is a great deal of humiliation for party who is not in control. Having a perfect spouse is in some senses a pipe dream. Where are these perfect people? Aren't romantic fiction and pornography all about the lure of unreal partner?
> 
> You don't want to leap for divorce because you are realistic. Liberation from your husband will not guarantee a better life. We are not talking about ending an relationship with someone who is abusive, alcoholic, etc. In fact, given your husband's professional success, some woman will scoop him up as fast as she can. That woman may become stepmother to your children.
> 
> A lot depends on where you would go in the event of divorce.
> 
> You need more power within your relationship, not b!tch power but genuinely stronger from within. If you make this change from within, your husband will probably warm to you.
> 
> Get rid of the despair and panic. Cultivate calm. Decisions made carefully will better than hasty ones.


LongWalk, there is something about your posts that gives me this warm, calm feeling. You are infact reading my thoughts and writing them down. Thank you.


----------



## turnera

My H is a nice, kind, loving man. People adore him. But when it comes to ME, he becomes incredibly...challenging. Because I'm the one person who could leave him and hurt him. So when he deals with me, all kinds of emotions and goals and innuendo pops up in his subconscious. Doesn't make him a bad person. Makes him a DYSFUNCTIONAL person. And except for me pointing out what he's doing, he truly has no idea HOW he's being bad or hurtful; to him, he's a great guy and I just don't get it. He doesn't do these things on purpose to hurt me. I suspect your husband doesn't either; it's just how they cope with their fear of you leaving because it's what worked in their childhood.

The problem is, the emotional abuse I suffer because of it is REAL. Painful. So painful I'd rather not even be around sometimes - but do you know why I get that way? Because I, like you, find it almost impossible to leave. It's just that I've been in your shoes for 35 years now, not 10. I HAVE no hope left, or very little. 

I've had several therapists now tell me that nothing will change until *I* change. In fact, they've been somewhat hopeful that, given how much he wants me, he WILL change and become a better husband. 

But they've all told me it will NEVER happen until I do the work on ME so that I no longer do all the things you do - doubt myself, blame myself, put myself last, believe him when he tells me what's wrong with me...

All that stuff - every bit of it - is hurting me because *I* allow it and don't do the hard work to change ME. Don't get me wrong, therapy is painful. It's worse than getting a tooth pulled, and that's my worst fear. But it's the only way I can change and grow and become his EQUAL. 

Right now, when he does one of his things, I just react - anger, tears, isolation, silent treatment, trying to hurt him back. All the wrong things. If I would just do the work to fix ME, I could deal with his crap, shoot him down in a HEALTHY way so that he, too, can see a way out of this destruction. 

As one of my therapists told me, "If you pull your support for his bad behavior out from under him, if you stop propping him up (making excuses for his bad behavior, accepting bad behavior, etc.), he will have two choices: fall flat on his face and be in pain forever, or learn to stand on his own two feet, as he should be doing, and suffer his own consequences for his poor behavior, and thus learn to be a better person. Either way, YOU will stop being the person in pain for HIS actions."


----------



## LongWalk

You're welcome.

My father was very emotionally abusive to me and my mother. He treated me with evil but this was because grew up unloved by a narcissistic mother. My grandfather worked abroad. War set the family to flight.

So my father did not have common sense in relationships. He tried to compensate by becoming a psychiatrist.

Only now at the age of 56 here on TAM have I gotten a clearer understanding. 

By standing up to your husband in a healthy way you can change the balance of power. You must avoid destructive conflict and sulking. Don't channel resentment into shyte tests.

When you become more certain of yourself you will also be able to give yourself to him.

You cannot patronize him. You have a magic power. Turnera has laughed at me for bringing it up. Sex solves all problems for many men.

If you have good sex, then he will feel balanced because you surrender. 

You have to be the wife who is the HR executive and craft a talent management strategy. If you love your husband and treat yourself and him with dignity, it will not be manipulation but boundaries.

Your husband asked you to end the flakiness. That you must do. The anger is burning you out. But now that you see these things, you can leave the so-called victim triangle. You will cease to be the persecutor, savior or victim.


----------



## Red Sonja

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I ALWAYS perceived my husband as a sincere, kind hearted, emotionally balanced and brilliant man. Never once did I ever suspect that he would emotionally abuse or manipulate me. And to be honest it never felt like that. He always acted out of love and protection...or so I thought. Turnera, you told me that the brainwash is complete. This is the hardest thing I've read on this thread. I trusted him blindly and it is so difficult to learn that he was actually abusing this trust.
> 
> So to be here now and hear that, well, I don't know... How was I so naiive?! How did I allow this to happen?


This can happen to anyone, it happened to me also and I am a college educated, professional woman who started and now owns three successful engineering companies and have technical patents in my name, FFS. Intellectual capacity does not necessarily help you in spotting people like your husband (and mine) who are capable of such appalling lack of empathy and emotional manipulation toward others.

My point is, DO NOT BLAME YOURSELF, his behavior does not reflect on your value as a person. Turnera is correct in that your focus should be on you and your children, his flaws are not yours to fix. 




Me'N'My'Girl said:


> The tremendous amount of pain I'm feeling now is unbelievable. I have a lot of emotions going on inside me. I'm angry and hurt.
> 
> I think I need some time to mourn the loss of my H as I ever knew him.


I have been exactly where you are right now and yes, you will need time to mourn, I did. These feelings will get better with time.

I have followed this thread but have refrained from responding because it “triggers” me and I did not want to be a distraction to you. But girl, I could tell you some stories .


----------



## Blonde

LongWalk said:


> Sex solves all problems for many men.
> 
> If you have good sex, then he will feel balanced because you surrender.


Truth IME. Can I put that in my signature?


----------



## LongWalk

@Blonde Sure (honored)

@RedSonja
Good advice. The key is to see that fixing him may or may not be impossible. To say that we cannot change someone is right and wrong. It is very difficult to change them. We should not have unrealistic expectations. What we can do is have boundaries that influence people.

My abusive and dictatorial father was at war with the world because he was dysfunctional. He wanted those close to him on his side, regardless of the stark reality that individuals do not command nations, civilization is all about the reduction of individual rights and responsibilities. The dysfunctional person takes from those close to them for the cause.

Your husband does a good job at work and he shares his work problems with you (you know about his big projects, presentations, etc) and he takes your support to solve them. You, though, feel emptied. You cannot press the MC issue until after he has survived the demands of work. In reality the prospect of divorce will cripple your husband, no matter how light or heavy his work load. Marital conflict rips open the burrow. All security vanishes.

Conflict with your husband feels like sabotage. If you, who is feeling insecure in your relationship because of his unexpected behavior, e.g., dumping you in hospital, set down boundaries without creating insecurity, then you will strengthen your marriage by taking appropriate decision making power.

Your husband accuses you of being too complicated to happy. Women are complicated because they multitask. We alas are not nearly so good at it. Is it possible to multitask and keep it simple?

Three simple ways to communicate with your husband:

1) Learn to say "honey, I'm not okay with that" in a way that is not angry. No explosions or sulking. Not okay and you can discuss it. You are even flexible if there is a genuine means of compromise or common understanding. He needs to feel the boundaries, not between a shrew and a doormat but between an equal partner and a disenfranchised subject.

2) Don't enter into covert contracts, giving him something in exchange for the hope of getting something back. Tell him plainly what you need and want. Keep it simple.

3) If it does not violate your sense of emotional balance, connect sexually. You have a right to fulfilment. When couples fall in love and have sex three times a day and are happy twirling their lover's hair between their finger tips and sharing the wetspot, there are no fights. As long as that in-lust and in-love state goes on conflicts are much easier to solve.

If you have good sex, your husband will wrongly think that everything is great in your marriage. That is why boundaries are necessary. Without a good sex life, then your marriage is even more likely to be a wasteland that you both want to leave.


----------



## AVR1962

MachoMcCoy said:


> But you married him anyhow. NICE! That's 4 lives you've ruined (I'm not counting yours. As my mother would say: "You've made your bed...").
> 
> I shouldn't blame you 100%. In those pre-marriage seminars they don't tell you that you will probably fall out of love with your husband even if he WAS your friend at one point. But going in like that? Is it possible that it could be a LESS THAN 0% chance? No, it's all group hugs and "hang in there when it gets hard". They don't say: "look around you. Almost every one of the women you see in this room right now will hate their husbands within 10 years. Most of them within 5".
> 
> You need to fix this.
> 
> 
> 
> He's young, handsome and successful. Great for him. Now give him the greatest gift you could ever give him and leave him. I wish to god my wife did while there was still a chance for me. Now I'm too old. You can BOTH start over with the lessons you learned from this travesty.
> 
> And I don't give a CRAP about if this will make you happy or not. I don't care about you. You caused this. Now fix it. Do something right for the first time in 13 years.


Been married 22 years and can say I did marry a friend but that's all it seems to be anymore, just friends. Like the OP, we are worlds apart. I do not feel he loves me and I do not feel love for him like I once did.

Many things brought us to this point.....his alcohol addiction, his porn addiction, his fantasy relationships (EA) with other women, his PA traits, lack of support for him in dealing with the children and his family, his lack of showing me any concern for me....eventually I distanced myself, tired of trying to involve him in my life/the marriage.

Not alot of fun but what happens if we split....we might each find love again and will be as blind as we were when we were in those heated moments in our own relationship and with time we each will become unhappy and distant from one another. If I divorce I tear up my family and then if we each go on to remarry then our children have step parents and step siblings. Oh boy, what fun! Been down that road and they steps are no no fun!

I do understand your situation OP!


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

AVR1962 said:


> Not alot of fun but what happens if we split....we might each find love again and will be as blind as we were when we were in those heated moments in our own relationship and with time we each will become unhappy and distant from one another. If I divorce I tear up my family and then if we each go on to remarry then our children have step parents and step siblings. Oh boy, what fun! Been down that road and they steps are no no fun!
> 
> I do understand your situation OP!


^^ this!

I think it is the main reason I allow myself to live in this misery. The grass is not always greener on the otherside. If I split now yes I know I could very well find a new man to love. But then we would at some point make the same mistakes and drift apart only to find myself in the same spot again after another 10 years. My kids will have a step dad and a step mom whom we will add into the mix and the problems will definately grow bigger. Heck I could even marry a man who would eventually turn out to be a physical abuser or whatever.

I know this sounds like a defeated mentality, but it is how I feel. I'm not trying to make excuses to stay in this marriage, but I am trying to be realistic. And to be honest, my life totally revolves around my kids. They are my first priority and they are the driving force that motivates me to change myself. I want to set a good example for them. I want them to grow up to be strong and confident. I don't want them to be quitters. I want them to fight till the very end. And I don't think that by quitting now I will be Doing just that.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Red Sonja said:


> I have followed this thread but have refrained from responding because it “triggers” me and I did not want to be a distraction to you. But girl, I could tell you some stories .


Ahh, I could do with some stories. I have all the time in the world


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

DayOne said:


> Just a suggestion, but can i ask that you pick up a copy of "I Know I'm In There Somewhere". waw has started reading it and it's been helping her.


DayOne..thank you for your suggestion. I will order the book.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> My H is a nice, kind, loving man. People adore him. But when it comes to ME, he becomes incredibly...challenging. Because I'm the one person who could leave him and hurt him. So when he deals with me, all kinds of emotions and goals and innuendo pops up in his subconscious. Doesn't make him a bad person. Makes him a DYSFUNCTIONAL person. And except for me pointing out what he's doing, he truly has no idea HOW he's being bad or hurtful; to him, he's a great guy and I just don't get it. He doesn't do these things on purpose to hurt me. I suspect your husband doesn't either; it's just how they cope with their fear of you leaving because it's what worked in their childhood.
> 
> The problem is, the emotional abuse I suffer because of it is REAL. Painful. So painful I'd rather not even be around sometimes - but do you know why I get that way? Because I, like you, find it almost impossible to leave. It's just that I've been in your shoes for 35 years now, not 10. I HAVE no hope left, or very little.
> 
> I've had several therapists now tell me that nothing will change until *I* change. In fact, they've been somewhat hopeful that, given how much he wants me, he WILL change and become a better husband.
> 
> But they've all told me it will NEVER happen until I do the work on ME so that I no longer do all the things you do - doubt myself, blame myself, put myself last, believe him when he tells me what's wrong with me...
> 
> All that stuff - every bit of it - is hurting me because *I* allow it and don't do the hard work to change ME. Don't get me wrong, therapy is painful. It's worse than getting a tooth pulled, and that's my worst fear. But it's the only way I can change and grow and become his EQUAL.
> 
> Right now, when he does one of his things, I just react - anger, tears, isolation, silent treatment, trying to hurt him back. All the wrong things. If I would just do the work to fix ME, I could deal with his crap, shoot him down in a HEALTHY way so that he, too, can see a way out of this destruction.
> 
> As one of my therapists told me, "If you pull your support for his bad behavior out from under him, if you stop propping him up (making excuses for his bad behavior, accepting bad behavior, etc.), he will have two choices: fall flat on his face and be in pain forever, or learn to stand on his own two feet, as he should be doing, and suffer his own consequences for his poor behavior, and thus learn to be a better person. Either way, YOU will stop being the person in pain for HIS actions."


I spent the night thinking of what you said. The first things I felt were feelings of Extreme anger. How could he do this to me?! It was all his fault we came to this point. If he wasn't such a mean and evil person we wouldn't have been here in the first place. If he would just listen and understand me , we would have been much happier. But then I realized I'm making the same mistake I always do. I victimize myself. I wallow in self pity and instead of standing up for myself I put all the blame on him and allow myself to feel miserable.

Now that I realized that, I looked at it from a different prospective. It was not HIS fault that we reached this point. We both contributed to it. Him by totally ignoring me and distancing himself and me by accepting his behaviour and attempting to shape myself to suit his desires, all the time while allowing my resentments to build up inside me. It's like I enjoyed adding some more points to his list of failures. I wanted to validate my feelings of hurt. Unconsciously, I sometimes WANTED him to do more mistakes so I could hold them against him. I wanted to make sure that when I confront him with all his 'failures' he would feel for me and start changing himself. Yeah well guess what? He was enjoying it. He thought that everything was fine. In the end I bottled it up and didn't speak up. The result...I held so many grudges against him and was burning myself inside out, while he was living his life happily, thinking his wife is the happiest woman alive who's counting her lucky stars that she's found him.

I started looking at him in a different way now. He's not an angel. And he's not the devil. So now what? I have more thinking to do.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Only thing you can do is change yourself really. You tried to change him, but you changed instead. You became this angry, bitter person, and I am sure that is not the type of person you envision yourself. Without real consequences to his actions, you have no options at all. If your end goal is to stay married no matter what, then you really have no power. To even cope in that type of relationship, you, yourself, will have to devolve as a person. I am sure you have notice that your not the same person you once were. You have created qualities about yourself that you do not desire.

If you think about it, he will not face his failures as a person until you leave. Since you have a bad connection, he really does not have the full extent of your misery. He does not want to face himself in the mirror right now, and he may never. He is the type of person to bury his head in the sand, and the best way for him to find the courage to face himself, is to do what he can to save the marriage. He has what he wants, so why should he face himself. You are a barrier right now for him to see his true self, since he does not know the true depths of his actions. After you leave, and he still does not change, then he has some real issues. The kind nice him that you believe he was, would be the facade he used to lure you in, and his truer self is the a$$ you see. Perhaps when he is around other people, that is the facade he puts up, and around you, he feels safer to show his truer self. We are different around people who will leave us if we acted like an a$$ towards them, so we are more careful around other people.


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## LongWalk

Good last post.

Once you see the victim triangle and refuse to hop around, playing those frustrating roles, then you can create order.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> In light of what I said in my previous post, do you still think that showing him consequences will make a difference?


No, sorry. Looks like I've been giving you bad advice after all. You have to love your wife for my method to work. I think that ship has sailed, if it was ever even in port. I WOULD say thank god you didn't just run to the airport and leave him based on my advice, but like I said, that is probably STILL your best option.

Speaking of bad advice...



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> ...sex between us became almost non-existant.
> 
> He also decided that it isn't worth the hassle and to this day masturbates daily which really really hurts me as he chooses this over me.
> 
> When we talk about it, it's just the same conversation over and over again. He says that he wants me everyday but that my actions put him off.
> 
> And no there isnt someone I noticed. But I am getting "more noticed" so to speak.


So, your husband is NOT low drive (masturbates daily), but chooses to not have sex with you. Sounds like you're pretty good looking if men notice you. Hmmmm...I'm a high drive male and I'm trying to think of ANY actions from a naked good looking woman lying in bed next to me that would be bad enough to"put (me) off" from rolling over and...well, you get the point.

Look in his browser history for the kind of porn he watches. See if there are any women in it.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> Three simple ways to communicate with your husband:
> 
> 1) Learn to say "honey, I'm not okay with that" in a way that is not angry. No explosions or sulking. Not okay and you can discuss it. You are even flexible if there is a genuine means of compromise or common understanding. He needs to feel the boundaries, not between a shrew and a doormat but between an equal partner and a disenfranchised subject.
> 
> * Earlier on, I voiced my needs clearly to my H. I told him what was accpetable to me and what was not. I told him that I won't forgive him for being inconsiderate of my feelings, that I expected him to always be my side through any hardships we'll be facing. And i expected him to do just that without any flaws. So when he disappointed be time and time again, instead of standing up for myself and showing him that I will not tolerate this behaviour, I withdrew, bottled it up and turned into this nagging wife who Jumped on every opportunity to criticise her husband and make him pay for his shortcomings. My reason for this was that if he didn't do something because he wanted to then I'd rather he not do it at all. And this is where I went wrong. I should have requested that he do it over and over again, maybe then he would understand it's importance to me.*
> 
> 2) Don't enter into covert contracts, giving him something in exchange for the hope of getting something back. Tell him plainly what you need and want. Keep it simple.
> 
> 
> 3) If it does not violate your sense of emotional balance, connect sexually. You have a right to fulfilment. When couples fall in love and have sex three times a day and are happy twirling their lover's hair between their finger tips and sharing the wetspot, there are no fights. As long as that in-lust and in-love state goes on conflicts are much easier to solve.
> 
> If you have good sex, your husband will wrongly think that everything is great in your marriage. That is why boundaries are necessary. Without a good sex life, then your marriage is even more likely to be a wasteland that you both want to leave.
> 
> * The sex between us is a totally different story. He seems content with the way things are though he may say otherwise when confronted. I don't think it really bothers him. But I think it's the least of our problems now. If we fix our other issues, maybe sex will happily follow. *


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## MachoMcCoy

You need happiness. You will NOT get it from this man. Your kids will get over it. You have a life to lead. And only ONE at that. Don't waste it any more with a man who doesn't love you (and can probably NEVER desire you).


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## MachoMcCoy

"If we fix our other issues, maybe sex will happily follow."

Yeah, like "If I marry him, he will change". Ask my wife how that worked out for her.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

MachoMcCoy said:


> So, your husband is NOT low drive (masturbates daily), but chooses to not have sex with you. Sounds like you're pretty good looking if men notice you. Hmmmm...I'm a high drive male and I'm trying to think of ANY actions from a naked good looking woman lying in bed next to me that would be bad enough to"put (me) off" from rolling over and...well, you get the point.


I've always asked him this. I mean never once did I come across a guy who sexually ignored his wife because of some trivial reasons.
He says that he's the type of guy who can't have sex with his wife when their relationship is tense. Yeah whatever.



> Look in his browser history for the kind of porn he watches. See if there are any women in it.


I did, many times. There was nothing peculiar about it. All the normal stuff. Never once was there anything slightly gayish in it.


----------



## AVR1962

Mr.Fisty said:


> Only thing you can do is change yourself really. You tried to change him, but you changed instead. You became this angry, bitter person, and I am sure that is not the type of person you envision yourself. Without real consequences to his actions, you have no options at all. If your end goal is to stay married no matter what, then you really have no power. To even cope in that type of relationship, you, yourself, will have to devolve as a person. I am sure you have notice that your not the same person you once were. You have created qualities about yourself that you do not desire.
> 
> If you think about it, he will not face his failures as a person until you leave. Since you have a bad connection, he really does not have the full extent of your misery. He does not want to face himself in the mirror right now, and he may never. He is the type of person to bury his head in the sand, and the best way for him to find the courage to face himself, is to do what he can to save the marriage. He has what he wants, so why should he face himself. You are a barrier right now for him to see his true self, since he does not know the true depths of his actions. After you leave, and he still does not change, then he has some real issues. The kind nice him that you believe he was, would be the facade he used to lure you in, and his truer self is the a$$ you see. Perhaps when he is around other people, that is the facade he puts up, and around you, he feels safer to show his truer self. We are different around people who will leave us if we acted like an a$$ towards them, so we are more careful around other people.


This is really good and so accurate!


----------



## AVR1962

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> ^^ this!
> 
> I think it is the main reason I allow myself to live in this misery. The grass is not always greener on the otherside. If I split now yes I know I could very well find a new man to love. But then we would at some point make the same mistakes and drift apart only to find myself in the same spot again after another 10 years. My kids will have a step dad and a step mom whom we will add into the mix and the problems will definately grow bigger. Heck I could even marry a man who would eventually turn out to be a physical abuser or whatever.
> 
> I know this sounds like a defeated mentality, but it is how I feel. I'm not trying to make excuses to stay in this marriage, but I am trying to be realistic. And to be honest, my life totally revolves around my kids. They are my first priority and they are the driving force that motivates me to change myself. I want to set a good example for them. I want them to grow up to be strong and confident. I don't want them to be quitters. I want them to fight till the very end. And I don't think that by quitting now I will be Doing just that.


I truly loved and adored my first husband but he was not a committed man. He left me with all our debts, the debts from his business that went belly-up, 2 children without child support. I dated a man for awhile that was very helpful but he was very controlling and became physically abusive, I got out. I then eventually (5 years after my divorce) married my second husband. he had sons from a previous marriage that he had full custody of. The boys were fine with me until they found out we were getting married. At that point I was rejected, unwanted, hated and they did everything they could to make my life a living H. My daughters accepted my husband just fine and they did well accepting their dad's new wife. Ex cheated on his second wife repeatedly and they eventually split but only after the kids and then my kids and their half siblings knew each other as brother and sister. You see this expanding? My daughters not only half half siblings they never lives with but half siblings they did live with and step siblings that lived with them. Now my ex is dating a woman with 3 adult children and the kids have all gotten to know one another and it now looks like the end might be coming for that relationship too.....more cheating and lies. It can get pretty ugly. I was on the phone with my oldest (32) the other night and she was pretty distraught as to what she has been put thru especially from her dad. I told her that all he had to do was be faithful and hold a job and maybe he and I would still be together. She, for the first time ever, told me that she was really glad that we did not stay together because she now can see that her dad has real deep issues. This was the man (her dad) that had her convinced I was the worst thing on Earth.


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## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I know this sounds like a defeated mentality, but it is how I feel. I'm not trying to make excuses to stay in this marriage, but I am trying to be realistic. And to be honest, my life totally revolves around my kids. They are my first priority and they are the driving force that motivates me to change myself. I want to set a good example for them. I want them to grow up to be strong and confident. I don't want them to be quitters. I want them to fight till the very end. And I don't think that by quitting now I will be Doing just that.


I understand; I stayed for the kid (at least that's what I told myself); 6 years after she graduated high school, I'm still here. And I get that if you left, you might get stuck in Dubai - hell, if you left, he'd probably extend his contract just to punish you by making you stay there longer.

That said, the example you're setting is a depressed, withdrawn, FEARFUL mother who jumps when their dad is around. Who they see being criticized, ridiculed, and dismissed - and she just sits there and accepts it, or yells. Who isn't a quitter - she accepts anything and everything just so she can say she doesn't quit.

Let's at least be real about WHAT example you're setting.


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## LongWalk

One thing that allowed my mother to survive being married to my father was her hobby. In the early 70s she took up potting. Now she is 84 and is still at it. In fact she is still improving as an artist. She charges $25 for a cup. This is something she recently did.










Throwing pots allowed my mother to have her own identity. Something that could not be ruined by my father. He probably would have killed her potting in cradle if he could have. But my mother had this release and she never stopped doing it.

Ironically, most of my father's fanatical change the world projects end up as computer equipment gathering dust in the basement. His stubborness probably cost a couple of million dollars. My mother eventually forced him to cut back but she could have stopped it earlier. She gradually took over more and more decision making because my father had Alzheimer's.

You should decide who you are, not your unhappy marriage. Once you are happier, you may find that your marriage is managable. It may turn out to be successful. And if it is unbearable you will know how to end it.


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## Blossom Leigh

OP... Blossom is coming on the scene here and I have to say after reading this thread I am physically ill. I saw so many moments that could have been handled differently and NOW there is so much damage that to put this relationship on the right path will be a major overhaul, but... it can happen. And being someone who is an abuse survivor I do NOT see your husband as abusive.

I have made many notes, but before I share anything I have a few questions...

How long have y'all been back together after the separation?

When he left you alone in the hospital, was he working? Was he in town?


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> OP... Blossom is coming on the scene here and I have to say after reading this thread I am physically ill. I saw so many moments that could have been handled differently and NOW there is so much damage that to put this relationship on the right path will be a major overhaul, but... it can happen. And being someone who is an abuse survivor I do NOT see your husband as abusive.
> 
> I have made many notes, but before I share anything I have a few questions...
> 
> How long have y'all been back together after the separation?
> 
> *It has been almost two and a half years now since the separation*
> 
> When he left you alone in the hospital, was he working? Was he in town?
> 
> *No he was in town. Actually the hospital was right next to his work. But I think he decided that work was much important that staying with his hormonal wife.*



Blossom, thank you for chiming in. It's always good to hear more thoughts and different views.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> I understand; I stayed for the kid (at least that's what I told myself); 6 years after she graduated high school, I'm still here. And I get that if you left, you might get stuck in Dubai - hell, if you left, he'd probably extend his contract just to punish you by making you stay there longer.
> 
> That said, the example you're setting is a depressed, withdrawn, FEARFUL mother who jumps when their dad is around. Who they see being criticized, ridiculed, and dismissed - and she just sits there and accepts it, or yells. Who isn't a quitter - she accepts anything and everything just so she can say she doesn't quit.
> 
> Let's at least be real about WHAT example you're setting.



For some reason there is a part of me that is having a hard time accepting that my H is this emotional abusive man. It's not like he criticizes me all the day. Actually I AM guilty of criticizing him whenever I have a chance. And sometimes he does try to take good initiatives and I push him away. I'm not trying to make excuses, but I am afraid that maybe I am making things sound much more horrible than they are. I am trying my best not to be biased while laying out the situation but I don't know if I am doing a good job.

But then as you said before, he could have already brainwashed me. I'm not sure anymore.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I'm trying to think where to start, I have 12 pages of notes on a large sticky pad..

I think the first thing I want to say is right now I would make the decision to stop building the leverage in your mind that he is abusive. At least put it on pause until we dig a bit together. You can put steam to that later if there becomes no question about it. But just for now, pause it. Are you ok with that?


----------



## turnera

Remember one thing: controlling or abusive men are usually not monsters. They are often quite charming. It's just that, when they are alone with YOU, things can become intense. My H is not an 'abuser' in any sense of the word, yet all three counselors have told me to leave him if I'm incapable of growing a backbone, of speaking up, of changing things. It's like the austism spectrum. You could be at the very lowest dial and be fully functioning; you could be at the other extreme and beat people in the street. Most people are somewhere in between. 

That said, why don't you sit down and type out your 'life story' of the last, say, 5 years. One one page, write out all the ways in which he's hurt you, ways you've ended up crying or feeling hopeless.

On another page, write out all the ways he's shown love toward you. 

Share it with us so we can get a better picture of the appropriate response.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

The second thing I want to say is that right now you both are RIPE for an affair. It is a miracle neither of you have had one already, especially with the female friend that was called. I will be very honest, when I first saw your thread, my impression was a wayward wife looking for validation for her cheating based on your words and your avatar also screamed that at me. For a "happy" wife, you have one of the most provocative avatars on TAM and it was off putting, so I steered clear of this thread because of it. Made me mad to even look at it. But, I was invited to this thread and chose to set all of that aside and look at the facts as presented. I saw a LOT that I truly feel I can help with and just ask for an open heart and mind.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> Remember one thing: controlling or abusive men are usually not monsters. They are often quite charming. It's just that, when they are alone with YOU, things can become intense. My H is not an 'abuser' in any sense of the word, yet all three counselors have told me to leave him if I'm incapable of growing a backbone, of speaking up, of changing things. It's like the austism spectrum. You could be at the very lowest dial and be fully functioning; you could be at the other extreme and beat people in the street. Most people are somewhere in between.
> 
> That said, why don't you sit down and type out your 'life story' of the last, say, 5 years. One one page, write out all the ways in which he's hurt you, ways you've ended up crying or feeling hopeless.
> 
> On another page, write out all the ways he's shown love toward you.
> 
> Share it with us so we can get a better picture of the appropriate response.


True, just from what I've seen I want to make sure he's getting a fair shake. I definitely have that charmer thing in mind to Ms. T


----------



## Blossom Leigh

There is NO question you and your husband are locked in mutual *massive self protection*. Over time your "resentment decks" were not cleared regularly and over time the decks got overloaded and now the "trust" ship is sinking. If neither of you unload their "resentment deck", the "trust" ship is going to sink whether y'all stay together or not. So this is where the action has to take place in order for this to survive. And how does that happen? Systematically removing resentments, so that the ship rights itself. You are correct that mismanagement of resentments is an issue. I think up to this point you two have not known what to do with them. AND going forward you are also correct that one way to handle them is to speak sooner than later. It is loving to speak your peace early in an issue so that you can release a pain sooner than holding onto it and allowing it to build into a raging resentment, that's unloving... so.. much of my thoughts will be centered here.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

The mutual resentments are causing both of you to treat each other in ways that are causing the other one to shut down. He is withdrawing and you are lashing out and or pushing him away. 

You are literally telling him "whoa/go"

You agonize about him being gone, but then when he is there you push him away. He is doing exactly what you are telling him to do. 

I know you have explained your hurts, but over and over I saw you shut him down right in the moment when he was emotionally reaching out to you. 

So, with that said I'm going to share what I saw in him...


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> The second thing I want to say is that right now you both are RIPE for an affair. It is a miracle neither of you have had one already, especially with the female friend that was called. I will be very honest, when I first saw your thread, my impression was a wayward wife looking for validation for her cheating based on your words and your avatar also screamed that at me. For a "happy" wife, you have one of the most provocative avatars on TAM and it was off putting, so I steered clear of this thread because of it. Made me mad to even look at it. But, I was invited to this thread and chose to set all of that aside and look at the facts as presented. I saw a LOT that I truly feel I can help with and just ask for an open heart and mind.


Yeah..should have changed this profile picture earlier. As mentioned earlier somewhere in the thread I had this as my avatar a few years back. It shows how a person changes as time goes by. There was no way I would've chosen this avatar now.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Handsome guy
Successful business man
great provider
well respected
great dad


*normal sex drive
desires his wife* - but self protection is killing this, desire is strong but by the time face to face happens the fear is stronger - self managing at this point

*plays cards close to the vest* (self protective - because if you knew everything about him he would feel unlovable potentially - fear of abandonment)

*jealous of other men* (fear of abandonment - justified because of weak boundaries??)

*Somewhat controlling* because of this fear of abandonment (her job situation, although that has recently changed)

*Managing high pressure job* - leaves him emotionally unavailable and seeks to relieve the pressure through hobbies and has tried to seek relief with his wife, but is shut down - offering the trip was his attempt to escape with just you and the best choice would have been to allow this escape and just relax, but he was shut out. Dwelling on her beauty... was shut down. He protects himself from a stressed wife and wants a relaxed wife... a respite from highly demanding job. Presently wife is cutting off H's ability to escape TO her, though its what she wants. 

Now he feels she hates him is asking for honest feedback. Doesn't care if it hurts, honest feedback is the only thing he can form a plan of action around. I'm hearing him want to try. I've heard him ask for your laughter, your beauty, your affection. Those are beautiful thoughts. 

When he asked if you loved him were you honest?

I believe he has lack of awareness surrounding work/life balance and how much heavy work leaves him emotionally unavailable to you. 

This man is in pain over this relationship and wants it fixed.


----------



## Blonde

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Yeah..should have changed this profile picture earlier. As mentioned earlier somewhere in the thread I had this as my avatar a few years back. It shows how a person changes as time goes by. There was no way I would've chosen this avatar now.



Why don't you change it then?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Now on to you...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Great Mom
Devoted Wife
Emotionally intelligent
Articulate
Outgoing
Thoughtful
Grateful for her husband and expresses it, *this is good*

MAJOR LIFE CHANGE (for both) - Moved to a foreign country, new baby, no support system in new country - now looks for all her emotional support from her H, which he isn't available for, though she has recently started building her own support, *this is good. *

Her cup is very dry

Shy with nudity - *self protective*

Struggles to recognize and receive love - *self protective*

Seeks to draw close to her husband, but rejects the "wrong way" - *self protective*

Possible weak enough boundaries with other men to have created distrust in her husband

Desires emotional availability/connection from her husband - does he have the emotional agility to be "present" when not at work, can his hours be adjusted, would he be willing, has she asked?

Already feels abandoned some justified, but some imagined.

Pessimistic - I didn't really see this as much as I saw worry of being out of control and abandoned - *self protective*

You want companionship, engagement, interest in you and the kids

Overcomplicates him - this is rooted in *self protection*, attempting to peer into potential problems and prevent them before they happen

Potential unreasonable expectations or at least mismatched

You are in tremendous pain and emotions have almost shut down to numbness if not already there. - *definitely final stages of self protection*

You both need emotional safety... will delve into that next..


----------



## Blossom Leigh

There is a concept I want to introduce to you.

*Giving your man emotional space.*

When you press in on him with talking, it is emotional pressure. When he is already under the gun at work, pressing in on him at home will shut him down. 

Also pressing in on him when he wants to keep a piece of himself private for fear of being unlovable (possibly) this is also emotional pressure that shuts him down. 

This man needs respite from pressure, but how is the question.

I think when he comes home, allow him some down time. If he doesn't get respite this emotional pressure he has from so many different directions will cause him to blow and many times affairs are just resentment lived out in reality. He already reached out to a female friend once to contact you. In my book that is a shot over the bow.

If he chose that it would not be right, but I'm just saying the conditions on both sides is ripe for it. 

Sometimes emotional availability is best developed in the silence because it is in the silence that acceptance is felt many times. 

Get support for your worries outside of him. Like here, or your family, counseling, friends, etc. I'm glad to see you are starting to do this. It will get some of your emotional weight off of him. He is not designed to carry all of your emotional weight just like you are not designed to carry all of his. The move to the foreign country caused the two of you to finally implode on each other and outside support (not opposite sex friends) will help you guys unimplode. 

I think you getting a job is a good idea, with a HUGE warning. As dry as your cup is you are going to HAVE to be on severe alert on falling for someone. You are right in that frame of mind to get blindsided by someone. So just word to the wise. I was in your frame of mind and thought I would never cheat when it happened to me. 

It is good you are reassuring him, that gives him space to escape to. Think emotional safety for him. If you are always a porcupine or stressed out when he is around you, he is not going to bring down his walls. Practice relaxing around him. 

Unrealistic vs realistic expectations... I want to delve into this next


----------



## Blossom Leigh

How much time do you spend creating a picture in your mind about how you want things to go with him?

How much of this is coming from books and movies?

Just healthy self assessment...


----------



## LongWalk

Wow, Blossom, great summary. This is free IC. It would take a therapist three sessions to get this far if they were making an effort.

I think OP and her husband can turn this around.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

How resentment is built...

A slight is perceived

A story is told

Leverage is built

Resentment sinks in

Sometimes this resentment is built on false perceptions or unrealistic expectations and it is wise to self assess to make sure we are accurately assessing ourselves and our spouses. 

Was my expectation reasonable?

Is my leverage reasonable?

Can I clear this off my resentment deck? If no, what needs to happen in order for me to do that?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I believe you both struggle with the language to change these dynamics.

So, be patient with yourself and him. 

There were a few warning bells of controlling behaviors in him, but not any worse than what I saw on your side, so I do not feel you have to run for the hills right now. 

If you could answer this about yourself and about your husband what would you say...

My husbands xyz is chronic, big and non responsive

for instance... My husbands anger is chronic, big and non responsive. 

Answer that about you and about him... 

Would he say "My wifes anxiety is chronic, big and non responsive" 

See where I'm going with that and answer the same about him if possible.


----------



## turnera

Did we talk about admiration yet? If you read HNHN, you'd know that one of men's top 2 or 3 Emotional Needs is almost always admiration. Goes back to caveman days, I suppose. They want to be the man everyone wants, the protector, the BEST protector. And I'd guess that most men never get any discussions growing up about being there for your wife, listening to your wife, letting your wife talk, etc. Unless it's like a joke about women kicking men to the doghouse or something.

So when men date and marry, especially if you're their only one like you two are, things really DO seem simple to them. "I'm here, aren't I?" kind of thing. And who knows? Maybe his dad DID tell him 'your job is to work and make money' and he really thinks that's all there IS to being married.

And when the wife starts getting disappointed over him NOT doing more, listening, seeing her side of things, and she starts withdrawing, he has no clue why. And your H seems to be fairly insecure deep down; probably comes from having parents who showed no passion. So when you retreat, or fight, or - heaven forbid - say he's not man enough, well, he's sure not going THERE again. So he withdraws more. And you resent more. And he withdraws more.

More than anything, I think, men want to be admired. And if your touchy-feely notion of therapy and such is all you're willing to consider, well, then, this is hopeless, isn't it? In his eyes anyway. So he gives up on sex since he can't satisfy you and goes into the bathroom every day to satisfy himself and reduce stress - no way to get rejected there. 

And to avoid you pointing out any more of his flaws, he keeps you at arm's length by always having a camera or laptop in his hands. Or punishing you for speaking up by avoiding you or criticizing you. 

Is he full-blown abusive? Probably not. Is he controlling? I'd say yes...to the extent of protecting himself. Which is why this needs to be on you - YOU get therapy (I thought you were looking a week ago), YOU read books (you said you'd ordered Getting The Love You Want a week ago, right?), You find ways to make it safe for him to be around you - while still making it clear you're not going to accept a mentally absent husband for forever. 

If he really is just an insecure, sad, scared boy inside who thinks he can't do anything right for you, prove him wrong. Show him how you admire him. But in the same breath, show him what YOU need.


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## Blossom Leigh

I may be totally overwhelming you, so I want to take a moment and say something to your heart.

I had an ex who elevated everything above me. EVERYTHING. I wanted his time and to be close, but he was too busy being superman. He was a hard worker, good provider, well loved in the community. I never could get him to slow down long enough to engage in our marriage. As long as I was in the house, he was fine, marital problems were an anomaly to him and when I would complain I would get blank stares because he was just Mr. wonderful and how could anyone not be happy with him. He just could not comprehend, but on my side I was deathly dry on the inside. I tried to tell him and begged him to engage. Still nothing. My pain grew to enormous levels. So in that scenario I would have said "My husbands lack of attention is chronic, big and non responsive." So, I deeply understand your pain and know where you are coming from first hand. Mine ended up in an affair by the way after chasing my husband for ten years. Poor choice.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Calling the 'love experts'*



turnera said:


> Did we talk about admiration yet? If you read HNHN, you'd know that one of men's top 2 or 3 Emotional Needs is almost always admiration.
> 
> More than anything, I think, men want to be admired.


QFT.

This can never be said enough. 

Without my wife's admiration, I felt like a sail boat without any wind.


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## Anon1111

OP-- I'm going to be a bit tough on you.

You are very focused on painting yourself as a victim. This will do nothing to solve your problems.

If you want to save your marriage you need to take a hard look at your flaws. 

Again, as I mentioned, I have been in a similar marriage to yours for many years. Your husband has definitely let you down. I see myself in many of the things you described. Focused totally on work. Checked out during the few hrs he is home. 

I have been there. I am sure he is overwhelmed by stress and he cannot deal with more at home. I remember intentionally staying late at work some nights because I couldn't deal with more drama at home. And convincing myself that my wife was lucky to have me. I was good looking, financially successful, intelligent. Who wouldn't want that? 

But I ultimately realized that I was not trying to attract some theoretical women to whom I might look good on paper. I was trying to attract my wife, with whom I had a shared history and within which I was not prince charming.

You too have major flaws within the context of your relationship with your husband.

For one, the fact that you left the country with his children only not to return for many months is truly alarming. I cannot imagine how I would react if my wife unilaterally took my children from me like that. Have you ever really grappled with the fact of the likely massive sense of violation and abandonment this may have caused your husband?

Second, you appear highly unpredictable emotionally. One minute you are saying your husband is abusive, the next you are saying he is really not that bad. Does your husband have the ability to trust anything you say at this point? Ask yourself honestly.

Third, you have alluded to your habit of repeatedly trying to insult your husband in the most humiliating ways possible. I give you some credit for recognizing this is a problem. On the other hand, you often seem to try to justify this based on things he does to you. The big question for you is whether you are willing to draw a line with yourself and say this is completely unacceptable behavior? Are you responsible for yourself and how you behave?

I should tell you that I have had to take a hard look at myself in my own marriage and, while I am still not happy with my wife, I realize that I have many flaws that take all of my energy to address.

I would bet that if you spent more time looking at how you could improve yourself, you would see better results and be more hopeful.


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## LongWalk

> If he really is just an insecure, sad, scared boy inside who thinks he can't do anything right for you, prove him wrong. Show him how you admire him. But in the same breath, show him what YOU need.


:iagree:

My father was doctor, a psychiatrist. His patients worshipped the ground upon which he walked. He need that admiration because he had be starved of love as child. How could my mother compete with this or understand it. He took her to international conferences on psychiatry and cavorted with all sorts of intellectual weirdos. They were the dysfunctional attracted to the dysfunctional like magnets. My mother simply suffered in her mystification. He took decades for her to find out that actually my father was, as a perons told her, "a very shy man."

Your husband is a normal guy. You have common sense. So your situation is not so bad. You are going create order, not by being hypercritical of him, or even yourself.

Your desire to work is in no small part driven by the desire for some normative force. For my mother it was potting, for you it will be something else.


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## Blossom Leigh

Something super simple that can help form that structure is to tell yourself "keep my eyes on my own paper" and that ALONE will open up emotional space for your man.


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## LongWalk

I think Frank O'Connor wrote a short story about a husband whose wife was expecting. When she went into labor he set out to fetch the doctor, but on his way he stopped into the pub, looking for information. He told folks what was happening and someone bought him a beer. Conversation started and the time passed. He was drunk and struggled home and as he walked in the door he heard the cry of a new borne baby. He knew his marriage/life was fvcked. End of story.

I wish I could remember which collection the story was in. You could read it and share it with your husband for a laugh. You cannot forget but you can laugh.


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## Blossom Leigh

Also, I do see self loathing in both of you by the way...


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## Blossom Leigh

And Longwalks quip reminded me to share...

When our son was born my H was TOTALLY overwhelmed. He stayed with me overnight the first couple of nights, but never took off during the day, would leave me to go take care of my geriatric dogs. In hindsight, I don't know why he didn't just board them, I don't know why he didn't take off work, BUT my delivery was an emergency and it threw him into survival mode emotionally, worried about losing his job, etc. Plus his son was now in NICU for seven weeks and I almost died, twice in eight days from delivery. He was doing his best. Guys can act strange sometimes when high level emotions like that hit just like us girls can. When he said "I can't believe I could do that" it made me wonder if he zoned out emotionally.


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## Blossom Leigh

Sorry to overwhelm you OP.. Your story triggered a LOT for me.. just hope something helps.

Practice kindness inspite of the hurts. 

I'm a bit tired today so I feel like I'm all over the place in my advice in a way. I'm usually more cohesive. I'm sharing as the thoughts hit my brain.

Pick my brain if you need to, hope to be more rested .. 

And I love so many other posts here. Glad Anon1111 weighed in. Glad you are seeking help. All the best too you for sure.


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## LongWalk

Here is a very good thread. Would be good for your husband to read


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Wow! I truly thank you all for taking the time to help. 
Blossom Leigh, i took a deeeeep breath after reading your posts. Someone mentioned earlier somewhere that I am emotionally unpredictable, saying my husband is abusive one minute and saying he is not such a bad guy the next. I actually never believed in my 13 years of knowing my husband that he was abusive. then when it was mentioned here I started to think that maybe there was a possibilty that I overlooked this fact. But I never warmed up to the idea that he is. This explains my hesitation. 
BL I think this is the neatest description I ever got Summarizing me and my husband. Deep down I know I contributed ALOT to the failure of this marriage. I just couldn't point out how or why. I've always wanted to explain what you said, but I couldn't arrange my thoughts and put them into words.
I'll re-read all these last posts again. I'm still trying to collect my thoughts. I'll respond then.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Ok this is frustrating. I've spent the whole morning trying to replace my avatar or remove it altogether and it's still there! Ugh


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> You are literally telling him "whoa/go"
> 
> You agonize about him being gone, but then when he is there you push him away. He is doing exactly what you are telling him to do.
> 
> I know you have explained your hurts, but over and over I saw you shut him down right in the moment when he was emotionally reaching out to you.


What you said here is EXACTLY what made me believe I am such a complicated person. I want him to be with me and try to work things out, but then the minute he shows up and tries to initiate any good gesture I get so irritated and push him away. I hate doing this and I try not to but then I keep repeating this over and over again. He told me exactly this," you're angry at me when I distance myself from you and you're angrier when I try to approach you. I really don't know what is it you want from me". And to be honest, I don't know why I do this. I spontaneously get angry and upset.


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## Blonde

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Ok this is frustrating. I've spent the whole morning trying to replace my avatar or remove it altogether and it's still there! Ugh


In your CP did you go to to Profile, then "Edit Avatar" under "Settings and Options"?. Here is a screen shot from this area of my acct:


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Handsome guy
> Successful business man
> great provider
> well respected
> great dad
> 
> 
> *normal sex drive
> desires his wife* - but self protection is killing this, desire is strong but by the time face to face happens the fear is stronger - self managing at this point
> I Never understood this. You know, you've continuosly been told that a normal man can't get enough sex no matter what. He always told me that he needs to feel an emotional connection to have sex but I never understood that. I thought he was running away. I accused him of having a very low drive. After all this is what we women do. We NEED an emotional connection to have sex, men don't. Or so I thought.
> 
> *plays cards close to the vest* (self protective - because if you knew everything about him he would feel unlovable potentially - fear of abandonment)
> 
> Again, this is spot on. I told him once that I feel like he doesn't share details about his life with me. I remember him saying that there are things he'd like to keep to himself. Things that he doesn't like about himself. He assured me though that they are completely harmless. This saddened me. After all I dont mind talking to him about everything and again I perceived it as him wanting to keep his distance and not trusting me.
> 
> *jealous of other men* (fear of abandonment - justified because of weak boundaries??)
> 
> He considers me laughing at a joke a guy said or having eye contact with someone as weak boundries. Well, ummm, what am I supposed to do?
> 
> *Somewhat controlling* because of this fear of abandonment (her job situation, although that has recently changed)
> 
> *Managing high pressure job* - leaves him emotionally unavailable and seeks to relieve the pressure through hobbies and has tried to seek relief with his wife, but is shut down - offering the trip was his attempt to escape with just you and the best choice would have been to allow this escape and just relax, but he was shut out. Dwelling on her beauty... was shut down. He protects himself from a stressed wife and wants a relaxed wife... a respite from highly demanding job. Presently wife is cutting off H's ability to escape TO her, though its what she wants.
> 
> He said all this word by word.
> 
> Now he feels she hates him is asking for honest feedback. Doesn't care if it hurts, honest feedback is the only thing he can form a plan of action around. I'm hearing him want to try. I've heard him ask for your laughter, your beauty, your affection. Those are beautiful thoughts.
> 
> When he asked if you loved him were you honest?
> 
> Well the last time he texted me this, i texted him back and told him that we will talk about it when he comes home. He never asked when he came back and I never brought it up.
> 
> I believe he has lack of awareness surrounding work/life balance and how much heavy work leaves him emotionally unavailable to you.
> 
> This man is in pain over this relationship and wants it fixed.


BL,I can't like this post enough.


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## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> What you said here is EXACTLY what made me believe I am such a complicated person. I want him to be with me and try to work things out, but then the minute he shows up and tries to initiate any good gesture I get so irritated and push him away. I hate doing this and I try not to but then I keep repeating this over and over again. He told me exactly this," you're angry at me when I distance myself from you and you're angrier when I try to approach you. I really don't know what is it you want from me". And to be honest, I don't know why I do this. I spontaneously get angry and upset.


Ok... I want to give you a visual.

Imagine you in an arena with a horse. And you are telling him "non-verbally" that you want him in your space. He understands and gets that. But as soon as he gets close you whack him with the whip in your hand, how long do you think it would take before he won't come to you when you call him. 

Same principle...

Anytime we create choas, pain, throw up a wall when someone gets close they NATURALLY retreat and self protect. The secret is accepting his closeness, in his style, which means accepting HIM. Relax into him. And sometimes that can be a scary place. Right now, what I would do is tell him you recognize this pattern and agree with him and promise him to work on it. Let him know you are committed to unraveling the "why" so that over time it becomes easier for you to accept him and allow him to be close. ETA: This will communicate to him that his emotional safety around you is important to you and you intend to actively pursue how to do that.

You *caused* him to understand you want him close, now you need to *allow* him to do that. 

Part of the reason you are barbing him when he gets close is you don't believe anyone could love you like that so you strike out before you get hurt. 

And yes, it is a visceral reaction. You will need to uncover why with a professional, but also one way to protect your mind from not accepting HIS style is not allowing yourself to get dreamy over fantasies about it. When you do that you don't see HIM. And truly... reality trumps fantasy everytime. You want to know why.... because reality is where the deepest intimacy happens, not in fantasy land. 

There may be some things crop up that you guys will have to tweak, like his jealousy may be a big enough problem that he needs to work on that. I think it is wise to work right now for that reason, but because you are so dry emotionally you need to protect your husband like a ravenous wolf against ANY man who sniffs out your dry bones. You will have to be warrior woman in that respect. 

And I truly am not putting all of the issues on you, but this was one glaring spot I knew would help shift things towards the good with you guys. 

I also think your H has a work life balance issue, but as he feels safer with you, this may self correct because he will MISS you  Get it?


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## Blossom Leigh

And Darlin'... I want to say this.. you both want the same thing.

He wants to escape into you

You want him to escape into you

Y'all just have unresolved traumas creating visceral reactions when that closeness happens that needs fixin'


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## turnera

I often joke that my H is the 'woman' in our relationship. He's the romantic, the one who wants an emotional connection, who tells me everything, and I mean everything. So there are all kinds of people.

The sense I'm getting is that he's extremely low in self confidence, that he needs your approval to get it, and since you're not 100% on board and are unwilling to support him without reservation, he has decided that you, like everyone else, are not to be trusted and so he has shut you out. Masturbating every day is safer to him than trying to be with you - no chance of rejection, no looking you in the face and seeing less than 100% desire, no seeing HIS shortcomings in your eyes. Out of fear, he tries to control his life, and you, so that he feels less fear and less self-loathing.

Of course that's a farce, it doesn't work. Only therapy will help him see that. Only therapy will help him see he CAN be faulty and still lovable. Fill out the questionnaires and share them. But keep pushing for therapy. And go yourself, no matter what.


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## Blossom Leigh

Oh, and when he comes close to you and you are upset about something, set it to the side to discuss later. ALLOW that close moment to happen, it builds the love bank. You can address the need/hurt away from the closeness. If you choose to address it later, it will help you relax in the moment. But don't let it be too later to where it builds resentment. There is a magical middle ground that doesn't kill the closeness, but doesn't ignore your needs.

I am an extreme middle of the roadist. When my husband comes to me close, I allow it fully. If there is an "issue" that needs to be addressed, I shelve it, its not going anywhere, and then I choose wisely when I share it so that he's got good attention on it and can receive it. I avoid it when he is too tired or rushed. When we get to the point we are too tired and rushed too much we start clearing the calendar and give ourselves our time back. I do not let issues fester too long. I also avoid fantasizing and building leverage. I like to keep my resentment deck clear.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Blonde said:


> In your CP did you go to to Profile, then "Edit Avatar" under "Settings and Options"?. Here is a screen shot from this area of my acct:


This is what I've been trying to do. I removed the pic and saved changes and it still shows up when I post


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## Blossom Leigh

can you click do not use an avatar

plus there is the size limit.. you may have noticed that


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Great Mom
> Devoted Wife
> Emotionally intelligent
> Articulate
> Outgoing
> Thoughtful
> Grateful for her husband and expresses it, *this is good*
> 
> MAJOR LIFE CHANGE (for both) - Moved to a foreign country, new baby, no support system in new country - now looks for all her emotional support from her H, which he isn't available for, though she has recently started building her own support, *this is good. *
> 
> Her cup is very dry
> 
> Shy with nudity - *self protective*
> 
> Struggles to recognize and receive love - *self protective*
> 
> Seeks to draw close to her husband, but rejects the "wrong way" - *self protective*
> 
> Possible weak enough boundaries with other men to have created distrust in her husband
> 
> Desires emotional availability/connection from her husband - does he have the emotional agility to be "present" when not at work, can his hours be adjusted, would he be willing, has she asked?
> 
> Already feels abandoned some justified, but some imagined.
> 
> Pessimistic - I didn't really see this as much as I saw worry of being out of control and abandoned - *self protective*
> 
> You want companionship, engagement, interest in you and the kids
> 
> Overcomplicates him - this is rooted in *self protection*, attempting to peer into potential problems and prevent them before they happen
> 
> Potential unreasonable expectations or at least mismatched
> 
> You are in tremendous pain and emotions have almost shut down to numbness if not already there. - *definitely final stages of self protection*
> 
> You both need emotional safety... will delve into that next..


Blossom, this is accurately and wonderfully written as well. I fully identify with it.

"Potential unreasonable expectations or at least mismatched"

Could you explain this further? I've always wondered if my expectations of him were over the top and unreal?


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> can you click do not use an avatar
> 
> plus there is the size limit.. you may have noticed that


It says that there is no pic specified. I tried to 'reset settings' and when I post, it's still there.


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## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Blossom, this is accurately and wonderfully written as well. I fully identify with it.
> 
> "Potential unreasonable expectations or at least mismatched"
> 
> Could you explain this further? I've always wondered if my expectations of him were over the top and unreal?


For instance 

When he offered the trip

And was dwelling on your beauty

I wondered if he didn't approach you the way you "expected" that he should therefore you didn't accept what he did offer. 

OR was resentment so strong that you weren't able to compartmentalize the past for the moment and allow him to be close. 

I really didn't have enough info to determine for sure which one it was.


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## Blossom Leigh

I guess what I'm trying to determine is whether its the past (resentment) that affects you more or expectations of the future (fantasies).

Either one of those can keep you from seeing reality in the present.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> How much time do you spend creating a picture in your mind about how you want things to go with him?
> 
> lately. No time at all. I kind of lost hope.
> 
> How much of this is coming from books and movies?
> 
> I am a pretty realistic person. I know these things are just fantasies. I will say though that watching a romantic movie now triggers me and makes me resent him more. It reminds me of how much is missing from my life.
> 
> Just healthy self assessment...


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## Blossom Leigh

Its good that you are realistic.

Right now... stay away from the movies.

It was good you got enough of a trigger to desire to right this ship, but don't choose to feed it ok?

Right now if you choose to watch romantic movies your fantasies will start to outpace the changes in your husband. 

He will need to be allowed for a time to catch up. That is one way to protect this union. If you run too far ahead of him in the woods, you will lose him as you choose to run ahead, you choose to take away his opportunity to catch up. I don't think you are ready to do that. The kind thing is to hang back on the trail for now. Allow him to close the gap.

Takes patience and love to allow that.

CHOOSING TO STRATEGICALLY ALLOW HIM TO CATCH UP WILL PROTECT YOU FROM AN AFFAIR FYI


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> If you could answer this about yourself and about your husband what would you say...
> 
> My husbands xyz is chronic, big and non responsive
> 
> for instance... My husbands anger is chronic, big and non responsive.
> 
> Answer that about you and about him...
> 
> Would he say "My wifes anxiety is chronic, big and non responsive"
> 
> See where I'm going with that and answer the same about him if possible.


Definately, my husband's "lack of attention" is chronic, big and non-responsive

He'd also definately say, my wife's "lack of understanding" is chronic, big and non-responsive. 
When I believe something, it can be hard to convince me of otherwise.


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## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Definately, my husband's "lack of attention" is chronic, big and non-responsive
> 
> He'd also definately say, my wife's "lack of understanding" is chronic, big and non-responsive.
> When I believe something, it can be hard to convince me of otherwise.


Sounds like the lack of understanding is fueling the lack of attention, but you two are definitely locked in a vicious cycle.

Loosen the grip.... relax around him.... trust that he will respond

Clingy, control, fear all shut him down


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## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> So when men date and marry, especially if you're their only one like you two are, things really DO seem simple to them. "I'm here, aren't I?" kind of thing. And who knows? Maybe his dad DID tell him 'your job is to work and make money' and he really thinks that's all there IS to being married.


This is specifically true. He always told me "well atleast I'm here with you. It's not like I'm out with my friends all night, every night."




> More than anything, I think, men want to be admired. And if your touchy-feely notion of therapy and such is all you're willing to consider, well, then, this is hopeless, isn't it? In his eyes anyway. So he gives up on sex since he can't satisfy you and goes into the bathroom every day to satisfy himself and reduce stress - no way to get rejected there.


He always expressed how important it is for him to feel admired by me. But it really is difficult when we're so distant now. I do admire him being successful at work, but that's as much as the admiration goes. 




> Which is why this needs to be on you - YOU get therapy (I thought you were looking a week ago), YOU read books (you said you'd ordered Getting The Love You Want a week ago, right?), You find ways to make it safe for him to be around you - while still making it clear you're not going to accept a mentally absent husband for forever.


I'm really struggling with time. My kids are on holidays now and the house is very hectic. Having 3 kids under 5 fighting all day and messing up the house + waking up every hour of the night is alot of work. I am trying to make time for everything, I promise.


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## Blonde

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> It says that there is no pic specified. I tried to 'reset settings' and when I post, it's still there.


Click "do not use avatar" at the top. Then click "Save Changes" at the bottom.


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## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> This is specifically true. He always told me "well atleast I'm here with you. It's not like I'm out with my friends all night, every night."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He always expressed how important it is for him to feel admired by me. But it really is difficult when we're so distant now. I do admire him being successful at work, but that's as much as the admiration goes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really struggling with time. My kids are on holidays now and the house is very hectic. Having 3 kids under 5 fighting all day and messing up the house + waking up every hour of the night is alot of work. I am trying to make time for everything, I promise.


Are you planning to go to work?


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## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> He always expressed how important it is for him to feel admired by me. But it really is difficult when we're so distant now. I do admire him being successful at work, but that's as much as the admiration goes.


There HAS to be things you can find to admire about him. Get some paper and cut some slips. On each one, write out something about him that's good. Like you don't cheat on me. You provide. You love your kids. You love me. You ask me for advice. You're proud to show me off. 

Try giving him one a day for a couple weeks. Tell him 'I'm trying really hard to drill down to what's wrong with our relationship. And I've learned that I'm allowing my resentment of what's NOT being done to overshadow what IS being done. So I want you to know that I do want to be married to you and there are a lot of things I'm grateful for. I'm hoping that, when you see that I don't hate you, you'll allow me back in and we can start solving this together.' And then hand him the first one. It might pique his interest and get him involved again.

Of course, at the same time, you have to start showing him HOW you're being hurt. That is what I'm worst at - when my H hurts me, I just retreat, so he has no clue. I'm trying really hard to let him know exactly what it is that he's doing. So he can then decide to address it or not.


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## Blossom Leigh

Where is the friggen standing ovation button around here


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## farsidejunky

OP (your user name is both too hard to type out or abbreviate on a phone):

Something my wife and I did, and still do, that was very effective in working on resentment:

Each night at bed time we tell each other what we are thankful for from one another from that day. Then we pray together. 

This builds gratitude, which is the opposite of resentment. It also forces both of you to see the good in each other. Plus it is also hard to remain mad at your spouse after you have just humbled yourself before your maker.

If you do not believe, then go with the thanks. And you take the lead on this. Tonight, when you lay down in bed, look at him and tell him at least one thing that you are thankful for him doing or saying that particular day. Tell him you would like to start this tonight and do it every night moving forward. Ask that he do the same. And if he does not, you do it anyway. I believe he will eventually follow your lead. 

And then stick to it, no matter how bad you may be arguing or how angry you are with each other. 

Trust me. It works.


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## DayOne

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> It says that there is no pic specified. I tried to 'reset settings' and when I post, it's still there.


I think you're clicking "profile picture" (as you don't have a profile picture). Click "User CP" up in the top left of the blue bar at the top, then go PAST "edit Profile picture" and down to "Edit Avatar".


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## Blossom Leigh

I agree farsidejunky... 

also, peering into the Holiness of God clears up your side of the aisle real quick. When we started staring at HIS holiness instead of our own self righteousness, things shifted fast for us.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Anon1111 said:


> For one, the fact that you left the country with his children only not to return for many months is truly alarming. I cannot imagine how I would react if my wife unilaterally took my children from me like that. Have you ever really grappled with the fact of the likely massive sense of violation and abandonment this may have caused your husband?


Actually I never looked at it that way. I was so angry I wasn't even thinking. However,I think you are right. I have to apologize to him.




> Third, you have alluded to your habit of repeatedly trying to insult your husband in the most humiliating ways possible. I give you some credit for recognizing this is a problem. On the other hand, you often seem to try to justify this based on things he does to you. The big question for you is whether you are willing to draw a line with yourself and say this is completely unacceptable behavior? Are you responsible for yourself and how you behave?


I am not trying to justify it. I did say some extremely humiliating things to him but that was on very few occasions. I realize that this is completely unacceptable and I have to work on myself not to act on impulse.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> I think Frank O'Connor wrote a short story about a husband whose wife was expecting. When she went into labor he set out to fetch the doctor, but on his way he stopped into the pub, looking for information. He told folks what was happening and someone bought him a beer. Conversation started and the time passed. He was drunk and struggled home and as he walked in the door he heard the cry of a new borne baby. He knew his marriage/life was fvcked. End of story.
> 
> I wish I could remember which collection the story was in. You could read it and share it with your husband for a laugh. You cannot forget but you can laugh.


This could easily be my H. I wouldn't be surprised.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

This marriage seems like a power struggle. You both snipe at each other, hoping to land blows, each seeking the other to conform to what each other's wants the other person to be. Sounds like each of you have not accepted the other person and their flaws, and learn to grow as an individual. Instead of working as a team on each of your issues, you find a way to attack each other. You can't communicate your frustrations and anger well in a way that he understands you, and it is probably vice versa. Your both either attacking each other, or the person builds a wall to protect themselvves. You have to learn to own your emotions because your the one feeling them. You have to communicate your emotions in a calm manner. Like,"I feel angry and frustrated that you were not their for our child's birth.  I felt alone, and I had no one there for me."


----------



## DayOne

Mr.Fisty said:


> This marriage seems like a power struggle. You both snipe at each other, hoping to land blows, each seeking the other to conform to what each other's wants the other person to be. Sounds like each of you have not accepted the other person and their flaws, and learn to grow as an individual. Instead of working as a team on each of your issues, you find a way to attack each other. You can't communicate your frustrations and anger well in a way that he understands you, and it is probably vice versa. Your both either attacking each other, or the person builds a wall to protect themselvves. You have to learn to own your emotions because your the one feeling them. You have to communicate your emotions in a calm manner.


Been there, done that. Which is why this thread resonates with me so much. I only hope Me'N'My'Girl and her man can break the cycle soon.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> For instance
> 
> When he offered the trip
> 
> And was dwelling on your beauty
> 
> I wondered if he didn't approach you the way you "expected" that he should therefore you didn't accept what he did offer.
> 
> OR was resentment so strong that you weren't able to compartmentalize the past for the moment and allow him to be close.
> 
> I really didn't have enough info to determine for sure which one it was.


It was the latter. He said it in the best way possible. In my mind it was like... yeah..whatever "roll eyes"


----------



## farsidejunky

You are exactly where my wife was a year ago. Resentment and bitterness has poisoned the well.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Right now if you choose to watch romantic movies your fantasies will start to outpace the changes in your husband.


You are giving me more things to think about. Everyone has fantasies hidden inside there somewhere. He usually Acts in a clumsy way when he reaches out to me. And it really puts me off. I can recall numerous situations where i shrugged and pushed him away because of it.




> CHOOSING TO STRATEGICALLY ALLOW HIM TO CATCH UP WILL PROTECT YOU FROM AN AFFAIR FYI


This is easier said than done. When I focus on something, I tend to give it all my time and attention trying to make things as perfect as I can. He on the other hand is happy with taking baby steps. We are mismatched in this department. It frustrates me when I'm giving it all I can to make it work, while he on the other hand is lagging behind because he feels a huge sense of accomplishment with every step he takes.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

He bucked you off in the past

Your gorgeous

Competent

Successful

Willing

Desiring you husband

Will you continue to choose to keep whipping him with your words, attitude and body language when he steps into the arena with you?

If you do, is that going to get you what you want?

I know a woman who bought a horse, he ran off with her so she sold him. She bought the next horse, he ran off with her, so she sold him. Got her third horse, he ran off with her, guess what? She sold him, got her FOURTH horse, and guess what... He ran off with her.

Guess who needed the work?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Hon, you are being an ingrate to your husband.

If you had a child reach to you clumsily would it be off putting.

Some of the sweetest men I've seen in the world are average Joes

This is reality, not Don Juan fantasy 

Now I see the pessimism.

But attitude is a choice and it makes a great difference.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Are you planning to go to work?


Yes. My son is ten months old now. I like sending them to daycare when they can walk by themselves. So I am waiting it out. Then I'll definately be heading to work.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> Try giving him one a day for a couple weeks. Tell him 'I'm trying really hard to drill down to what's wrong with our relationship. And I've learned that I'm allowing my resentment of what's NOT being done to overshadow what IS being done. So I want you to know that I do want to be married to you and there are a lot of things I'm grateful for. I'm hoping that, when you see that I don't hate you, you'll allow me back in and we can start solving this together.' And then hand him the first one. It might pique his interest and get him involved again.


I like this..I'm sure this would lure him in.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> OP (your user name is both too hard to type out or abbreviate on a phone):
> 
> Something my wife and I did, and still do, that was very effective in working on resentment:
> 
> Each night at bed time we tell each other what we are thankful for from one another from that day. Then we pray together.
> 
> This builds gratitude, which is the opposite of resentment. It also forces both of you to see the good in each other. Plus it is also hard to remain mad at your spouse after you have just humbled yourself before your maker.
> 
> If you do not believe, then go with the thanks. And you take the lead on this. Tonight, when you lay down in bed, look at him and tell him at least one thing that you are thankful for him doing or saying that particular day. Tell him you would like to start this tonight and do it every night moving forward. Ask that he do the same. And if he does not, you do it anyway. I believe he will eventually follow your lead.
> 
> And then stick to it, no matter how bad you may be arguing or how angry you are with each other.
> 
> Trust me. It works.


We NEVER go to bed at the same time. He stays up late. I've always wanted him to get into bed around the same time as me. I knew it would build a connection between us but he never did and I dropped the issue. Do you think it would be right to set a rule that we should go to bed together? Or is this an unrealistic expectation? Something that will build resentment on his side?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Why is he up?


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> This marriage seems like a power struggle. You both snipe at each other, hoping to land blows, each seeking the other to conform to what each other's wants the other person to be. Sounds like each of you have not accepted the other person and their flaws, and learn to grow as an individual. Instead of working as a team on each of your issues, you find a way to attack each other. You can't communicate your frustrations and anger well in a way that he understands you, and it is probably vice versa. Your both either attacking each other, or the person builds a wall to protect themselvves. You have to learn to own your emotions because your the one feeling them. You have to communicate your emotions in a calm manner. Like,"I feel angry and frustrated that you were not their for our child's birth. I felt alone, and I had no one there for me."


Story of my life...
How sad is that? 
Was watching some old pictures yesterday. I cried my eyes out all night. I looked different, smiled different. 
I never imagined my life would turn out that way.
Yes I am 29. I'm still young. But it certainly doesn't feel that way.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Why is he up?


Xbox, facebook, editing pictures, whatever he could get his hands on. When I tell him I need him to go to bed at the same time as me he tells me that I'm trying to control him.


----------



## karole

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Xbox, facebook, editing pictures, whatever he could get his hands on. When I tell him I need him to go to bed at the same time as me he tells me that I'm trying to control him.


Perhaps if you tried "asking" him nicely instead of "telling" him he may be more agreeable.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> He bucked you off in the past
> 
> Your gorgeous
> 
> Competent
> 
> Successful
> 
> Willing
> 
> Desiring you husband
> 
> Will you continue to choose to keep whipping him with your words, attitude and body language when he steps into the arena with you?
> 
> If you do, is that going to get you what you want?
> 
> I know a woman who bought a horse, he ran off with her so she sold him. She bought the next horse, he ran off with her, so she sold him. Got her third horse, he ran off with her, guess what? She sold him, got her FOURTH horse, and guess what... He ran off with her.
> 
> Guess who needed the work?


The horse 

I get your point. I really don't know where to start. It's all so overwhelming.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

karole said:


> Perhaps if you tried "asking" him nicely instead of "telling" him he may be more agreeable.


You can't ask him nicely every single day. You give up.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

What time are you in bed and what time is he coming to bed?


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> The horse
> 
> I get your point. I really don't know where to start. It's all so overwhelming.


Then use my suggestion. Start there.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> The horse
> 
> I get your point. I really don't know where to start. It's all so overwhelming.


No, the woman.

The same behavior showed up no matter what horse she owned, therefore the problem was with her. 

I would lay money on it that no matter which man you had, you would end up with these same reactions. So its good you are trying to learn because THAT is the right answer.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

DayOne said:


> I think you're clicking "profile picture" (as you don't have a profile picture). Click "User CP" up in the top left of the blue bar at the top, then go PAST "edit Profile picture" and down to "Edit Avatar".


Aaah!! Finally! I have been editing my profile pic all along. :smthumbup:


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

​


Blossom Leigh said:


> What time are you in bed and what time is he coming to bed?


I go to bed somewhere between 11-12. I'm up with the kids at 5:30
He goes to bed around 1-2, later on weekends. He wakes up at 8 for work.


----------



## turnera

I want to point out that this conversation has now swung nearly entirely to a 'she's the problem not him' attitude and IMO it's unfair. She has been reacting to HIS actions all along. Yes, they've gone down a dark path for which she has a lot to blame. But he's not just some sweet aw-shucks guy who is being beaten up by her. In fact, she's reacting nearly exactly like I did the first 20 years of my marriage, reacting to things my H did, things I didn't start.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> I want to point out that this conversation has now swung nearly entirely to a 'she's the problem not him' attitude and IMO it's unfair. She has been reacting to HIS actions all along. Yes, they've gone down a dark path for which she has a lot to blame. But he's not just some sweet aw-shucks guy who is being beaten up by her. In fact, she's reacting nearly exactly like I did the first 20 years of my marriage, reacting to things my H did, things I didn't start.


Thank you Turnera. It's good to know that I am not such a horrible person.

Why are marriages so difficult?!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> I want to point out that this conversation has now swung nearly entirely to a 'she's the problem not him' attitude and IMO it's unfair. She has been reacting to HIS actions all along. Yes, they've gone down a dark path for which she has a lot to blame. But he's not just some sweet aw-shucks guy who is being beaten up by her. In fact, she's reacting nearly exactly like I did the first 20 years of my marriage, reacting to things my H did, things I didn't start.


I'm getting to him...

I have not said he is not the problem

I have said they are both the problem

And to be honest it needed to swing the other way. All the focus was on him and I saw plenty on her side that needed attention and thus this needed balance.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Thank you Turnera. It's good to know that I am not such a horrible person.
> 
> Why are marriages so difficult?!


No one is saying "horrible"

I am saying you both need work

I highlighted the horse girl for a very specific reason and that was for her to realize that if she doesn't do her own work her problems will follow her to the next man if she ever chose that route. That is not a comment to him not being a problem.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> ​
> I go to bed somewhere between 11-12. I'm up with the kids at 5:30
> He goes to bed around 1-2, later on weekends. He wakes up at 8 for work.


So you are up for 2.5 hours before he wakes up.

He is up three hours after you go to bed. 

You said he is home by 9pm? The kids are asleep.

When does he "HAVE" to be at work?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Calling the 'love experts'*



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> We NEVER go to bed at the same time. He stays up late. I've always wanted him to get into bed around the same time as me. I knew it would build a connection between us but he never did and I dropped the issue. Do you think it would be right to set a rule that we should go to bed together? Or is this an unrealistic expectation? Something that will build resentment on his side?


Yes!!! But you can't insist. This is where humility and vulnerability will be crucial.

"Honey. Please. Will you come to bed with me this evening? I want very much for us to be better. I miss that we used to do that, and it would mean a lot to me."

Who could say no to that?

If he rejects you, do not get mad, as hard as it will be. Continue to try to communicate to him with humility and vulnerability. Convey to him how much it means. Then thank him.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Get yourself in a relaxed state of mind and "invite" him to relax with you. If he turns you down, accept it, DO NOT LET this upset you at first. He will still have "I don't trust her" to work through. But just be consistent, soft and accepting and see what happens.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Some quips for you... for later... just mull them over for now

Be particular without being critical

Trust that they will respond, but be ready to correct, not one more than the other

Expect a lot, accept a little, reward often



I am recently learning about micro releases and this concept will work wonders between the two of you when you are ready for it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Something to keep in mind, OP

Some of these thoughts I'm putting on your thread are just parking them in a space for you to come back to them later. You will know where they are. 

they are not for pressure on you, Hon

Just sharing what hits my brain before I forget it


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> So you are up for 2.5 hours before he wakes up.
> 
> He is up three hours after you go to bed.
> 
> You said he is home by 9pm? The kids are asleep.
> 
> When does he "HAVE" to be at work?


He has to be there by 9.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Something to keep in mind, OP
> 
> Some of these thoughts I'm putting on your thread are just parking them in a space for you to come back to them later. You will know where they are.
> 
> they are not for pressure on you, Hon
> 
> Just sharing what hits my brain before I forget it


BL, I really appreciate your help. You helped me understand alot about myself and gave me many things to think about.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

It will take time to process it all since I threw a lot at you at one time, but I want to finish fact gathering so I can finish. Today may be compromised a bit since I've got a bit of my own drama that may play out today, but will try to be around when I can.


----------



## LongWalk

Me'N'My'Girl,

I am glad you and BL have connected. She has good advice.

With the ideas and energy you can get from TAM, you can quit the failed paradigm of your marriage and move on to something better.

If you know that your alternatives now are a successful marriage or a successful divorce rather than a failed marriage or destructive divorce, then you will have strength and direction.

You will influence your husband positively when your happiness is not hostage to some mystery that he cannot figure out.

If you have goodwill and a thick skin, you can work though a period of change. You cannot guarantee the outcome, but you can remove downside risk.

You are responsible for your own happiness – you need to find a means of self affirmation outside of what he does. This should not suck all of your energy away but at least it should clear your mind and give you perspective.

Imagine that you divorce. How could you arrange that to be the most supportive and positive arrangement for your children, husband and you? Maybe that arrangement should be the model for a happy marriage. The only problem is that it would lack love between a man and woman.

A suggestion: your husband told you, you were beautiful and you rejected his compliment. When you go bed again can you say to him something like: "The other night you told me I was beautiful and it means a lot to me even if I couldn't say so at the time. Please forgive me."

Even if this doesn't fix everything, it will stitch up the latest wound.


----------



## turnera

LW's right. Obviously, your H wants you to know he cares about you; he's just too little too late. But that doesn't make it invalid. He's shown you that every time you reject him, he pulls away more out of self protection. You can reverse that.

I like this article: How to Tame the Lame Blame Game!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

You can begin to stack the odds in your favor that this marriage can turn around and that's what we aim to help you pursue. Eventually as your husband sees changes in you he will choose to partner with you to pursue the same if it is not to late. From what I'm hearing, it isn't.


----------



## DayOne

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Aaah!! Finally! I have been editing my profile pic all along. :smthumbup:


You're most welcome, M'Lady!


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> A suggestion: your husband told you, you were beautiful and you rejected his compliment. When you go bed again can you say to him something like: "The other night you told me I was beautiful and it means a lot to me even if I couldn't say so at the time. Please forgive me."
> 
> Even if this doesn't fix everything, it will stitch up the latest wound.


I like this. I think I am ready to start with this tonight. Wish me luck


----------



## DayOne

Definitely a great idea from LW.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I like this. I think I am ready to start with this tonight. Wish me luck


LW gave a real life example of what I mean when I say "it's the release that teaches" and it also gives emotional space AND emotional safety. 

When you do this I wonder if you will see your husband exhale or sigh not long after you offer this


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> LW's right. Obviously, your H wants you to know he cares about you; he's just too little too late. But that doesn't make it invalid. He's shown you that every time you reject him, he pulls away more out of self protection. You can reverse that.
> 
> I like this article: How to Tame the Lame Blame Game!


Turnera, this article is amazing! I identify with everything in it. I noticed that the worst days between us are the ones that started with this blame game. I justify my anger and negative emotions by blaming him for not acting the right way or doing the same mistake over and over again. I do realize now that I'm counting on him to make me happy. I don't own my emotions and fix myself. I just find it easier to convince myself that he is the reason my life is miserable.

This is an i excellent article. I printed it out and I'll be reading it every morning to focus on what I need to be doing.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Great awareness OP!


----------



## LongWalk

:iagree:

She is a sharp cookie, a female Bagdon.

Everything will not go right at once but once you shovel the sand out instead of in, you've a fighting chance.


----------



## farsidejunky

Just checking in on you, OP.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> Just checking in on you, OP.


Thanks for checking up on me, farsidejunky.
Well, I could safely say things are slightly improving.
So I called my nanny to stay in with the kids and woke up my H quite early and invited him for breakfast outside. we hadn't done this since we had the kids so I think he was pleasantly surprised. So we had some general talk and laughed a little then went home. When we arrived he gave me a warm hug (it has been so long since we last hugged) and he thanked me a lot for taking the intitiative. We then had a "calm" day. Honestly, I didn't really feel connected but I really appreciated him acknowledging it. So I think it was a tiny step forward.

Yesterday though we met with our friends at an outdoor event. I was really disappointed as he spent the entire day taking pictures and at one point disappeared for 2 straight hours. It was really embarrasing and I got pretty mad and distanced myself again. He started to apologize but I called him off immediately. I didn't want to hear it again. So he started acting really nice after that and I just chose to let it go as the kids were having a great time- wrong I know as I should've Told him calmly that it bothered me instead of rugsweeping but he already knows that. And he still did it. maybe I should just get used to having fun alone and forget about him being around. I don't know. It did help though that I know now that he didn't mean to hurt me, he just got carried away.

So today I was in bed re-reading the article that Turnera pointed out. I had it printed the day before and put it on my nightstand. As it turns out he had read it and went on about how wonderful it is and that he relates so much with it. Then he gave me a hug and went for work. It has been ages since he'd done that and I really appreciated it. Then he sent me a message on facebook and I called him and we laughed a little. 

We had stopped doing all those little things so it feels like we're heading in the right direction. I am really hopeful but I'm fully aware that we could still slip back to our old ways. I'm trying my best and I'm really grateful.


----------



## farsidejunky

It is a good start.

Each day that you continue this incrementally closes the distance between you.

As for the disappearing at the event, you are hurt because you are still hung up on mind reading his intent. You must point out to him when it bothers you, but you must also do it without anger or he will only hear that you are mad at him and not why.

"Honey, when you spend two hours of a three hour event taking pictures and not talking to me, it hurts me and makes me feel like you don't want to spend time with me."

And he is responding to you. OP, please; tonight, lay in bed with him, hold his hand, look him in the eyes, and thank him for the effort. I promise it will help.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> And he is responding to you. OP, please; tonight, lay in bed with him, hold his hand, look him in the eyes, and thank him for the effort. I promise it will help.


I will.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Thanks for checking up on me, farsidejunky.
> Well, I could safely say things are slightly improving.
> So I called my nanny to stay in with the kids and woke up my H quite early and invited him for breakfast outside. we hadn't done this since we had the kids so I think he was pleasantly surprised. So we had some general talk and laughed a little then went home. When we arrived he gave me a warm hug (it has been so long since we last hugged) and he thanked me a lot for taking the intitiative. We then had a "calm" day. Honestly, I didn't really feel connected but I really appreciated him acknowledging it. So I think it was a tiny step forward.
> 
> Yesterday though we met with our friends at an outdoor event. I was really disappointed as he spent the entire day taking pictures and at one point disappeared for 2 straight hours. It was really embarrasing and I got pretty mad and distanced myself again. He started to apologize but I called him off immediately. I didn't want to hear it again. So he started acting really nice after that and I just chose to let it go as the kids were having a great time- wrong I know as I should've Told him calmly that it bothered me instead of rugsweeping but he already knows that. And he still did it. maybe I should just get used to having fun alone and forget about him being around. I don't know. It did help though that I know now that he didn't mean to hurt me, he just got carried away.
> 
> So today I was in bed re-reading the article that Turnera pointed out. I had it printed the day before and put it on my nightstand. As it turns out he had read it and went on about how wonderful it is and that he relates so much with it. Then he gave me a hug and went for work. It has been ages since he'd done that and I really appreciated it. Then he sent me a message on facebook and I called him and we laughed a little.
> 
> We had stopped doing all those little things so it feels like we're heading in the right direction. I am really hopeful but I'm fully aware that we could still slip back to our old ways. I'm trying my best and I'm really grateful.



Hmm, when your calm, you should express your feelings and acknowledge them, and hopefully he acknowledge them as well. That is what communication is all about, seeking understanding. Since your on here, and seeking help, you most likely will have to take more initiative, and show by example. Even if you think he knows, still talk to him. Give him your prospective and explain your emotions about it as the result. It doesn't attack him directly, and you own your feelings.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

That is a great start OP. Keep focusing on relaxing and having fun, then in the moments he upsets you calmly state it "when you choose to do xyz, I feel xyz pain, will you please consider choosing differently." Then let it go and refocus on relaxing.

You guys will build a new language and trust will be built. Hoping the best!!! I still would like to dig into the out of balance areas I saw, but what you are doing right now will naturally start to remedy some of those. When you hit a wall, reach out anytime, I will be willing to help with them. I've been a bit "zoned out" processing my own thread at the moment, but I am still here for you.


----------



## LongWalk

What was his reaction when you told him that his declaration of appreciation for your beauty made you feel good?


----------



## Anon1111

OP-- you are taking some positive steps. I'm rooting for you. 

Everything you do is cumulative. It took you both years of bad behavior for you to dig the hole you're in now. It will take time to build it back up.

Focus on being the kind of person you admire. It will make you feel better about yourself if nothing else. 

If your husband reacts positively to it, that will be a bonus.

I would not be surprised if he dials back the antisocial behavior on his own once he sees that engaging with you is consistently a positive experience. It would be great if he would take a leadership role and do this on his own, but he might just end up reacting to you instead.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> What was his reaction when you told him that his declaration of appreciation for your beauty made you feel good?


I can't thank you enough for this suggestion. It was really positive. It was like he has been held back for a long time. He went on an on about how lucky he is to have me. It made my day


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Anon1111 said:


> OP-- you are taking some positive steps. I'm rooting for you.
> 
> Everything you do is cumulative. It took you both years of bad behavior for you to dig the hole you're in now. It will take time to build it back up.
> 
> Focus on being the kind of person you admire. It will make you feel better about yourself if nothing else.
> 
> If your husband reacts positively to it, that will be a bonus.
> 
> I would not be surprised if he dials back the antisocial behavior on his own once he sees that engaging with you is consistently a positive experience. It would be great if he would take a leadership role and do this on his own, but he might just end up reacting to you instead.


Actually I've never felt better in such a long long time. I can't thank you all enough for guiding me through all this drama.

The thing is I no longer wait for him to do anything. I am working on myself and this is what makes me happy. I started connecting with all my friends and meeting up with them. I plan my days ahead so I don't have time to stay alone and feel lonely. 

My husband travelled and will be away for 10 days and I have never been happier. I used to stay home and feel miserable but now I have so many things to do I don't mind him travelling.

And to be honest I find a lot of change in him. He is responding well and I am really grateful. I honestly thoght there is no way out of this dilemma. I will take each day as it comes and I will definately be updating you all.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> .
> You guys will build a new language and trust will be built. Hoping the best!!! I still would like to dig into the out of balance areas I saw, but what you are doing right now will naturally start to remedy some of those. When you hit a wall, reach out anytime, I will be willing to help with them. I've been a bit "zoned out" processing my own thread at the moment, but I am still here for you.


BL.. Your posts made a world of difference to me. It made me appreciate my H and know that he is not a bad person and that he struggling just as much me. 
I would love your insight on the out of balanced areas. It makes me reflect on everything I do and helps me improve myself. 

thank you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I am so excited for you!!!! When the right pressures come off the changes can be quick :smthumbup: You are so welcome.

You are already fixing one of the imbalances by removing the expectation on your husband to fulfill all your emotional needs. Spreading it around to yourself and great friends lightens the load for everybody. You are moving from codependent on your hubby to interdependent which is way healthier.

Also, by bringing in friends you are replacing the support you left when you moved. We all need each other for sure. So glad you are doing this.

The other imbalance was work/life for your husband. He needs to adjust his sleep, work hours to match more time with you and now that things are going much better so fast, now is the time to ask sweetly. If he doesn't respond at first accept it for now, let things continue to improve and approach it again. You may find that he ends up offering this one on his own so refrain from making it a point of contention. I would ask once maybe twice and then wait a while and see if he offers on his own. 


Time away for yall is good timing since things are improving. He will be eager to get back. When things started improving for us it made it hard to be apart since we miss each other. So, this emotional space is good. 

You are doing excellent..:smthumbup:


----------



## LongWalk

OP, you are smart and so once you began working for yourself, you became stronger. Your husband no doubt found it difficult to face your intelligence when it was probing and hostile. You drove him away and this reinforced his negative behavior.

You have gotten out of the so-called victim triangle, in very short time.

Your husband is probably going to meet your needs because it pleases him to do so.

Your husband gave you an additional good line. Once in a while you can tell him not to be complicated and then lead him with a smile to do what you want. So long as it causes him no harm how can he object?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Your doing well. Most men operate on an ego and pride basis. So whenever he does something well, you compliment and show admiration will bolster his confidence, and he may be more assertive. Whenever he does something that annoys you, you state your emotions, and ask for his help and input to come up with a solution. He will be happy if he is actively trying to help to fix a situation, and you have to listen. Negotiate if differing views can't be hashed out. Give him time to ponder the situation too. Remember, you had time to think about it before bringing it up to him. Simple things like holding hands, and looking into someone's eyes will breed intimacy, and the more a couple is bonded, the more willing they will be to work on the issues.


----------



## LongWalk

I think this is exactly what she is doing.


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> And to be honest I find a lot of change in him. He is responding well and I am really grateful. I honestly thoght there is no way out of this dilemma. I will take each day as it comes and I will definately be updating you all.


I'm really glad my initial opinion of him was wrong. I'm sorry for pushing you down that path without having more information. I've learned from this too!


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## Blossom Leigh

Whoo, look at Ms. T for ridin' up with her big girl panties on.. lookin' sharp Sister :smthumbup:


----------



## Yeswecan

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Thanks for checking up on me, farsidejunky.
> Well, I could safely say things are slightly improving.
> So I called my nanny to stay in with the kids and woke up my H quite early and invited him for breakfast outside. we hadn't done this since we had the kids so I think he was pleasantly surprised. So we had some general talk and laughed a little then went home. When we arrived he gave me a warm hug (it has been so long since we last hugged) and he thanked me a lot for taking the intitiative. We then had a "calm" day. Honestly, I didn't really feel connected but I really appreciated him acknowledging it. So I think it was a tiny step forward. *Awesome! Finding that putting your spouse first is best. In my experience the...kids will follow. The home is happy. Finding again what was lost due to kids and commitments is very refreshing. Keep it up. *
> 
> Yesterday though we met with our friends at an outdoor event. I was really disappointed as he spent the entire day taking pictures and at one point disappeared for 2 straight hours. It was really embarrasing and I got pretty mad and distanced myself again. He started to apologize but I called him off immediately. I didn't want to hear it again. So he started acting really nice after that and I just chose to let it go as the kids were having a great time- wrong I know as I should've Told him calmly that it bothered me instead of rugsweeping but he already knows that. And he still did it. maybe I should just get used to having fun alone and forget about him being around. I don't know. It did help though that I know now that he didn't mean to hurt me, he just got carried away. *Family time with friends, etc are not the time to disappear for two hours to take shots. There is a time and place for that. Let him know this so there is no "next time.'*
> 
> So today I was in bed re-reading the article that Turnera pointed out. I had it printed the day before and put it on my nightstand. As it turns out he had read it and went on about how wonderful it is and that he relates so much with it. Then he gave me a hug and went for work. It has been ages since he'd done that and I really appreciated it. Then he sent me a message on facebook and I called him and we laughed a little. *Communication...ain't it grand!!!! Keep it up. *
> 
> We had stopped doing all those little things so it feels like we're heading in the right direction. I am really hopeful but I'm fully aware that we could still slip back to our old ways. I'm trying my best and I'm really grateful. *Yes, it is easy to slip into you old ways. However, if you do the right things often enough it becomes automatic. If you do start to slip back think of the good doing the right things has done. You will be right back at it in a split second.*


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> The other imbalance was work/life for your husband. He needs to adjust his sleep, work hours to match more time with you and now that things are going much better so fast, now is the time to ask sweetly. If he doesn't respond at first accept it for now, let things continue to improve and approach it again. You may find that he ends up offering this one on his own so refrain from making it a point of contention. I would ask once maybe twice and then wait a while and see if he offers on his own.


I certainly have this on my to-do-list. We talked about it before he left and he agreed that he will try his best to leave earlier for work so he could make it home earlier. He only sees the kids on the weekends so it will make a big difference if he could at least come and join us in the bedtime routine. This has always been a rough spot in our marriage. Lets see how this will turn out.


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## Blossom Leigh

Great that he is already in agreement. If it isn't perfect, don't fret it, just shake it off, tweak the plan and keep right on truckin' with it. Much like flying a jet across country. You don't abandon the flight plan, you just keep adjusting and heading in the right direction.

Sometimes when we look for perfection where we shouldn't be looking for it we set ourselves up for failure... 

But when we are realistic and gracious, accurate in desire, yet open handed with the flow, unexpected pleasant surprises can come from that.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> Your doing well. Most men operate on an ego and pride basis. So whenever he does something well, you compliment and show admiration will bolster his confidence, and he may be more assertive. Whenever he does something that annoys you, you state your emotions, and ask for his help and input to come up with a solution. He will be happy if he is actively trying to help to fix a situation, and you have to listen. Negotiate if differing views can't be hashed out. Give him time to ponder the situation too. Remember, you had time to think about it before bringing it up to him. Simple things like holding hands, and looking into someone's eyes will breed intimacy, and the more a couple is bonded, the more willing they will be to work on the issues.


He actually told me this. He straight out asked me to compliment him when he does something right. As it seems when I say nothing he doesn't think it made a difference so he doesn't bother to do it again. Seriously I thought it was obvious that I looked pleased lol.


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## Blossom Leigh

Make a fuss over him Darlin'


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## Mr.Fisty

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> He actually told me this. He straight out asked me to compliment him when he does something right. As it seems when I say nothing he doesn't think it made a difference so he doesn't bother to do it again. Seriously I thought it was obvious that I looked pleased lol.



Sounds like one of his love languages is words of affirmations. He needs it to feel love. Do you see it making a diffrence in his confidence?


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## Me'N'My'Girl

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed though.since he travelled he only called once to check on us and today he just answered my text and didn't care to call. I thought since we were making progress he will want to call me more. I texted him and told him that I miss him and he didn't even answer.

I think we'll have to talk about that when he comes back.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Calling the 'love experts'*



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> He actually told me this. He straight out asked me to compliment him when he does something right. As it seems when I say nothing he doesn't think it made a difference so he doesn't bother to do it again. Seriously I thought it was obvious that I looked pleased lol.


Your husband sounds like he has a lot of "nice guy" in him. He would benefit from some reading.

How are you actually progressing? I see some talk about platitudes, and some talk about him, but not much about how you are feeling over the last couple of days.


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## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I have to say I'm a bit disappointed though.since he travelled he only called once to check on us and today he just answered my text and didn't care to call. I thought since we were making progress he will want to call me more. I texted him and told him that I miss him and he didn't even answer.
> 
> I think we'll have to talk about that when he comes back.


um... how long was he gone?


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> um... how long was he gone?


3 days


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## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> Your husband sounds like he has a lot of "nice guy" in him. He would benefit from some reading.


As tough as he seems from outside, he does have a lot of nice guy in him. A while ago we talked about that and I offered some things for him to read but he was never interested. Deep down I know he thinks that these things are a load of rubbish.


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## Mr.Fisty

have you tried explaining to him that his need of reaffirmation is the same for your need of for intimate communication?


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> have you tried explaining to him that his need of reaffirmation is the same for your need of for intimate communication?


Oh he knows this all too well.


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## farsidejunky

Knowing and understanding are two different things. 

Does he understand it?


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## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> Knowing and understanding are two different things.
> 
> Does he understand it?


Well, if he doesn't understand it after all the efforts I've done in 13 years trying to make it crystal clear, then I don't think there's anything more I can do.


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## Mr.Fisty

He sounds like he has low e.q. He does not seem like he has the emotional intelligence to gain insight to others around him. If that is not the case, He is selfish and only cares that his needs are fulfilled. But I am guessing towards the former.


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## farsidejunky

Does he have an empathy problem?


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## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> Does he have an empathy problem?


He rarely calls when he travels. I made it clear that it really hurts when he cuts us off like that. It's always the same. He would apologize and say that he was so busy. I was very hopeful this time since we've made some progress. I'm trying not to be so negative about it, however I can't help but feel disappointed.


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## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> 3 days


He only called you once?

And you have children?


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## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> He rarely calls when he travels. I made it clear that it really hurts when he cuts us off like that. It's always the same. He would apologize and say that he was so busy. I was very hopeful this time since we've made some progress. I'm trying not to be so negative about it, however I can't help but feel disappointed.


It's natural to be upset by that. 

The first time my ex went on a hunting trip and didn't call me for four days I told him flat out that was not ok and that I expect different next time. He never did it again.


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## Anon1111

Old habits die hard. If he has always been low communication, then he is not going to change overnight. I do not think it will help much to make a big deal out of the fact that he only called once over 3 days. 

Focus on the fact that you are heading in a positive direction. You do not need to (and cannot realistically) fix every interaction at once. Keep focusing on yourself and what you can do. It is so easy to fall back into the trap of resentment over things like this.

You are rebuilding your foundation right now. You can choose to celebrate the fact that he's returned home. Show him what a wonderful home he has with you. Don't focus on shortcomings. Just use this opportunity to reunite. Next time I will bet he will be more likely to be homesick and want to reach out. It takes time and patience.


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## Red Sonja

farsidejunky said:


> Does he have an empathy problem?


IMO opinion, based on the husband’s behavior described on this thread, is that *yes he does have an empathy problem*. I pointed it out earlier in post# 211. I have continued to follow the OP’s thread but decided to remain quiet because some other TAM members chimed in and were promoting what I call a “Love Him Even More and He Will Come Around” fix to the problem, which is worth a try. Working on yourself, which had also been promoted, is always beneficial.

However, the danger in this approach when dealing with a spouse who is empathy deficient is that they will “soak up love like a sponge” while giving little or nothing in return. In the long-term it simply will not work with a low/no empathy spouse and will eventually emotionally exhaust the giving/loving spouse.

OP, I am not saying to give up on the advice you have been getting here but at the same time you must watch out for your emotional health. It takes two to make or break a relationship and you deserve to have your needs met also.


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## turnera

Blossom Leigh said:


> Make a fuss over him Darlin'


To an extent.

After 35 years of marriage, my H STILL gets bent out of shape if I don't compliment him for cooking dinner or vacuuming or washing dishes. Despite the fact that I do it 6 out of 7 days of the week and no one compliments ME for doing it.

There should be equilibrium.


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## Mr.Fisty

If he lacks e.q., and really does not understand empathy, your needs will not likely be met by him. It is like trying to make a l.d. spouse understand what a h.d. is going through. It is not going to happen. If he is not seeing a therapist, or seeking help to own his own issues, then he is failing on his end. 

i would not recommend staying until your emotionally exhausted. First of all, you will see how he responds to a crisis, if he is willing to bend towards you to have your needs met. Friends and family can only go so far. If he does achieve an awakening, you will have the mental capacity to work on the relationship. Just keep detach until he shows a pattern that you feel like you can trust.


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> To an extent.
> 
> After 35 years of marriage, my H STILL gets bent out of shape if I don't compliment him for cooking dinner or vacuuming or washing dishes. Despite the fact that I do it 6 out of 7 days of the week and no one compliments ME for doing it.
> 
> There should be equilibrium.


Totally agree.

My current H had an empathy problem to until I almost divorced him. Then he found his empathy  There is balance between backbone and compassion. I do think he belueves she can handle a lot, so he lets her. Which means she has to learn calm assertive ways to let him know different. And if calm isn't working. Do what it takes to get the response. But DONT shut him down right when he is giving you what you want. But also dont refrain from speaking up about issues. It is WHEN you do that that is important. What I saw is her letting her bitterness ruin his attempts to express love to her, thats counter productive. Allow those times. And speak up sooner rather than later FOR the sake of the relationship and in a way that is supportive, not caustic. She was being caustic right when he was coming to her. Bad idea. Yet she is hurting at the huge lack of attention on her. She must expect him to engage so that is remedied and not move off that standard. Expect a lot, accept a little and reward often allows progression towards that end since it rewards his care for her until it builds high enough for him to offer freely and frequently in a head up heart in kind of way. In other words the goal is to do this until HE self manages his time better and engage his family because he loves it so much he wants to. She was killing the little bit of want to he had left. No offense OP. But even I had a visceral reaction to it. I think its possible there are empathy issues on both sides because of the taking the children incident. Its not one sided.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

So i texted him and told him that I know he was busy but that I wished he would give us some of his time and check on us. I said that we missed him and it would be very nice to know that we were on his mind too.

Well as usual he said he was very busy and he was out all the time blah blah blah followed by some pictures he took recently. Well, I appreciate he is sharing these pictures with me, but apparently he had enough time to take them but not enough time to call. I am never his first priority. It is always something else.

Oh well... I think I need to detach more. But then when I really start detaching I tend to totally ignore, followed by feeling bitter. I don't know how to reach this balance where I detach and still communicate well.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

The positive thing is that I am enjoying my time away for him. I'm exploring different things and now I don't depend on him to make me happy. He is also enjoying his time away from me as usual which is good. But the difference is that I am enjoying but he is still on my mind. I miss him and let him know that. He, on the other hand, tends to forget about me completely.


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## Blossom Leigh

Tell him that is not ok, OP. You mention a little something and then he blows you off, then you wallow in self pity until resentment is so high that by the time he does do something you are biting at him through bitterness. You are not being effective in the assertiveness needed to cause him to choose differently with you. 

So yes, doing things for yourself is great and not needing ALL of your happiness from him is great, but you cannot ignore issues. And you need to aim for effective... Your talk to him wasnt effective.

Is this guy an extreme extrovert?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> So i texted him and told him that I know he was busy but that I wished he would give us some of his time and check on us. I said that we missed him and it would be very nice to know that we were on his mind too.
> 
> Well as usual he said he was very busy and he was out all the time blah blah blah


Since you were not responsive to my soft attempt, let me rephrase... It is NOT ok to not reach out to your wife and children when traveling. It is rude and unsafe. Plus, when you dont reach out and connect with us I feel rejected, hurt, unloved, unwanted, and very alone. I EXPECT you to ..make AND maintain this correction going forward and MAKE time to reach out, connect and make sure we are ok. I will no longer accept status qou.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Tell him that is not ok, OP. You mention a little something and then he blows you off, then you wallow in self pity until resentment is so high that by the time he does do something you are biting at him through bitterness. You are not being effective in the assertiveness needed to cause him to choose differently with you.
> 
> So yes, doing things for yourself is great and not needing ALL of your happiness from him is great, but you cannot ignore issues. And you need to aim for effective... Your talk to him wasnt effective.
> 
> Is this guy an extreme extrovert?


The reason I mentioned this here is to ask for opinions on how to deal with this in an effective way since my usual ways clearly aren't working. Yes I know I should be assertive about what I want and tell him that it is not okay. I did make it very very clear in the best straightforward way that I was upset that he didn't call and that I will not be the last on his priority list. He apologized ,again.

I'm not really wallowing in self pity. I knew this would happen. But I had this part in me which hoped he would do differently this time since we were much closer when he left.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Since you were not responsive to my soft attempt, let me rephrase... It is NOT ok to not reach out to your wife and children when traveling. It is rude and unsafe. Plus, when you dont reach out and connect with us I feel rejected, hurt, unloved, unwanted, and very alone. I EXPECT you to ..make AND maintain this correction going forward and MAKE time to reach out, connect and make sure we are ok. I will no longer accept status qou.


This is exactly what I said. 

I added though, that he always expects me to understand that he was busy and that I should leave it at that. He makes time for everything and always leaves me out. I told him that this is unacceptable and that should not happen again.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> The reason I mentioned this here is to ask for opinions on how to deal with this in an effective way since my usual ways clearly aren't working. Yes I know I should be assertive about what I want and tell him that it is not okay. I did make it very very clear in the best straightforward way that I was upset that he didn't call and that I will not be the last on his priority list. He apologized ,again.
> 
> I'm not really wallowing in self pity. I knew this would happen. But I had this part in me which hoped he would do differently this time since we were much closer when he left.


No, that builds false expectation... Hoping it would be different. He has had the same habits for too long. Its not going to be different right now, accept that and build on what he DOES do correct. Correct the rest strategically, aka not during his love expressions. Once it is built then it WILL be different and you won't be hoping for it. When you are hoping for different that is already building resentment. Bad habit. Keep those resentment decks clear. Know that you want it different but accept that it will take time and you keep healthy interests in the mean time to help manage yourself..


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> This is exactly what I said.
> 
> I added though, that he always expects me to understand that he was busy and that I should leave it at that. He makes time for everything and always leaves me out. I told him that this is unacceptable and that should not happen again.


Good!! How did he respond?

I would have been more clear and firm.

By the way my ex was the same...


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> When you are hoping for different that is already building resentment. Bad habit. Keep those resentment decks clear. Know that you want it different but accept that it will take time and you keep healthy interests in the mean time to help manage yourself..


Thanks for pointing this out to me. It does seem I make this mistake repeatedly. I'm starting to see where I slip clearly now. I'll keep this in mind.


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## Blossom Leigh

You are welcome 

Get as tough as you need to about the neglect. It is not ok. I think he is still blowing you off because you are still sugar coating it. Tell him it is flat out rude and irresponsible. 

He is a married man and needs to act like one. You are not a puppy dog he feeds and turns out to the back yard to fend for yourself while he is chasing everything else life has to offer. I hope he wakes up. My ex didnt. But I also in hindsight sugar coated it too much. The me today would have gotten the response needed


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Good!! How did he respond?
> 
> I would have been more clear and firm.
> 
> By the way my ex was the same...


He started off by blaming ME! That I should've called. When that didn't work he went on about how busy he was and that he had no time. I told him very calmly that he made time for everything else and that I will not accept to be pushed to the bottom of his priority list. He apologized but again I told him that I am not waiting for his apology. I am waiting for his actions. I did say though that he knows that his wife will always be waiting for him and will accept all of his shortcomings. I told him that this time I'm putting all my efforts into making this work, but this will not be the case for long. Not sure if this was a smart move.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

I am thinking his communication is terrible. From your posts, he sounds clueless on that end. For you it is a marathon, and it could take a long time. Your talking about years of forming habits, and from my college professors, it could take nearly the same amount of years to undo. This is easier when your younger because your brain is constantly growing and soaking everything like a sponge. When we are older, we don't create neural pathways as we are when we are younger. That is why older people are more set in their ways. It is not an excuse.

I think the issue will be your patience versus his progress. That is something only you can decide. An analogy would be, someone has a poor diet, and develops a heart attack, but because the person wants to live, they make a drastic change in lifestyle. The heart attack was the crisis. Even on tam, the waw syndrome is sometimes people will bury their head in the sand, and have no awareness of why their wife left. Work becomes an obsession, all the focus and energy is placed on the workplace, while the relationship suffers because no time and energy is left to maintain the bond. Usually when the wife has reach her limits and leaves, then the crisis moment has arisen. They will beg and plead, try and change their habits, ask their wives for counseling, and it really depends if the waw has any emotional energy she wants to expend in the relationship.

Some people have self awareness and take preventative measures to keep the relationship good. They have good communication, their boundaries match well, they look after each others needs, and they have alone time to do a health check-up on their relationship. There they either compromise, and come to an agreement on how to better the marriage. 

You have to be both his relationship coach, wife, and counselor. You will have to expend more energy, keep somewhat detach, and be his teacher on how a relationship works.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> He started off by blaming ME! That I should've called. When that didn't work he went on about how busy he was and that he had no time. I told him very calmly that he made time for everything else and that I will not accept to be pushed to the bottom of his priority list. He apologized but again I told him that I am not waiting for his apology. I am waiting for his actions. I did say though that he knows that his wife will always be waiting for him and will accept all of his shortcomings. I told him that this time I'm putting all my efforts into making this work, but this will not be the case for long. Not sure if this was a smart move.


Fisty, you are correct kind of. I have seen men change on a dime when the woman finally stops tolerating it, zero tolerance AND he wants her bad enough. 

OP, your husband is expecting you to carry his family/wife duty. You are not designed to carry his load. You need to leave it laying in the dust and put him on notice that you will no longer carry his load. Its his job to pick it up, carry it and engage the blessing he has. You cannot do that for him. , so don't

AND letting him know he has a short amount of time to choose to pick it up is perfect. I did that in spades with my now Husband and guess what... He picked it up.

You want to *cause* him to pick it up by communicating the destructiveness of him not picking it up and the consequences if he doesn't, then if he chooses to pick it up, *allow* it. The time frame allows him the courtesy of choosing to pick it up before its too late and allows you the peace of mind of knowing if he chooses not to you can let go of him.


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## Mr.Fisty

Oh, I know people can change on a dime, it usually does not happen until a crisis moment. That is what I was refering to when I made my heart attack comment. Some people will have a drastic lifestyle change.

In this case, that crisis moment is not too far off. We will see how her husband responds.


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## Blossom Leigh

Mr.Fisty said:


> Oh, I know people can change on a dime, it usually does not happen until a crisis moment. That is what I was refering to when I made my heart attack comment. Some people will have a drastic lifestyle change.
> 
> In this case, that crisis moment is not too far off. We will see how her husband responds.


Totally agree


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Oh and tell him you refuse to accept blameshifting for his responsibility.

Just make sure you aren't setting him up to fail by not calling and then being upset he didn't. Keep self assessment healthy. Be fair to him. 

I believe you said even when you do call he cuts it short. Again... Thats not ok and roll right into cause and allow.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

I hope I have a lot of patience in there somewhere. And I certainly hope he would choose to carry his load. I'll hold on to my positive mentality for now.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I hope I have a lot of patience in there somewhere. And I certainly hope he would choose to carry his load. I'll hold on to my positive mentality for now.


Literally right now you are testing to see if this is lack of capacity or lack of willingness. As long as you have both you have something to work with. I figured out my H possessed capacity, the willingness was harder to tackle which is usually the case in cases like this. But it can be done.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Just make sure you aren't setting him up to fail by not calling and then being upset he didn't. Keep self assessment healthy. Be fair to him.


You made me smile, BL. I was planning to do just that. Thanks for pointing this out too.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> You made me smile, BL. I was planning to do just that. Thanks for pointing this out too.


Haha  I'm glad. Gotta keep your side of the street clean my dear.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

She is quite in a conundrum. If she points out his short comings he gets defensive, and when she ignores it, nothings changes. This is where she can only level consequences towards him, unless he mysteriously becomes self-aware, and gains the introspection to change. She did give him an idea that she will not wait forever, but somehow, I think he will be surprised still if she leaves him. Perhaps we will see him here on tam, stating that he had no clue that this was coming. Reminds me of Day1. How after his wife left, he sought some drastic change. Luckily in his case, his wife's tank was not empty.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> Perhaps we will see him here on tam, stating that he had no clue that this was coming. Reminds me of Day1. How after his wife left, he sought some drastic change. Luckily in his case, his wife's tank was not empty.


Unfortunately, my husband would never come on here. I truly wish he would. But, he wouldn't waste his precious time on reading how to improve his marriage.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Unfortunately, my husband would never come on here. I truly wish he would. But, he wouldn't waste his precious time on reading how to improve his marriage.



At least you can pass on this knowledge to your children. Hopefully they choose someone that fulfills their needs and they do the same in return. You can teach them healthy communication, introspection, and taking responsibility for their own issues. Oh, I forgot about boundaries, and how to not let people push past them.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Calling the 'love experts'*



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Unfortunately, my husband would never come on here. I truly wish he would. But, he wouldn't waste his precious time on reading how to improve his marriage.


This is resentment. You cannot effectively lead your husband AND keep your resentment. 

Which is it going to be?


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> So i texted him and told him that I know he was busy but that I wished he would give us some of his time and check on us. I said that we missed him and it would be very nice to know that we were on his mind too.
> 
> Well as usual he said he was very busy and he was out all the time blah blah blah followed by some pictures he took recently. Well, I appreciate he is sharing these pictures with me, but apparently he had enough time to take them but not enough time to call. I am never his first priority. It is always something else.
> 
> Oh well... I think I need to detach more. But then when I really start detaching I tend to totally ignore, followed by feeling bitter. I don't know how to reach this balance where I detach and still communicate well.


Well, give him a taste of his own medicine. Start sending him pictures of YOU out having fun. With a group of people, if possible.

He has you on a different level than him subconsciously. I know, I'm married to one. The only way he will start being more considerate is if he sees you NOT waiting around for him. He'll start thinking wait a minute, she's valuable, other people value her, she might even be more valued than me, I'd better make sure she stays into me, or she might find someone better. No blaming required.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> This is resentment. You cannot effectively lead your husband AND keep your resentment.
> 
> Which is it going to be?


Is it? :scratchhead:


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> Well, give him a taste of his own medicine. Start sending him pictures of YOU out having fun. With a group of people, if possible.


I really want him to have fun. I don't feel jealous that he does. What gets to me is just him ignoring me.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Calling the 'love experts'*



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Is it? :scratchhead:


*But, he wouldn't waste his precious time on reading how to improve his marriage.*

Smells like it to me. You characterizing his time as precious? If you believed it was, you would not have said the quoted statement. Therefore you do not believe it is, so you are being passive aggressive about how you refer to how he spends his time.

Resentment.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Calling the 'love experts'*



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I really want him to have fun. I don't feel jealous that he does. What gets to me is just him ignoring me.


Being assertive with clear communication is the only way to avoid this.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

farsidejunky said:


> Being assertive with clear communication is the only way to avoid this.



She is starting to be more assertive, now she is waiting for his capacity to change. She warned him she won't be around forever. Lets see if he takes her warning to heart. She also has to be patient to see if he can maintain those changes. Some people don't have a clue that you have to put time and energy into a relationship.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> *But, he wouldn't waste his precious time on reading how to improve his marriage.*
> 
> Smells like it to me. You characterizing his time as precious? If you believed it was, you would not have said the quoted statement. Therefore you do not believe it is, so you are being passive aggressive about how you refer to how he spends his time.
> 
> Resentment.


It's just that he would rather spend his free time taking pictures than actually making effort to improve our marriage. But now that you mention it, it does feel like resentment. 

It seems that everything I do or think of has resentment in it. I have so much to work on.


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I really want him to have fun. I don't feel jealous that he does. What gets to me is just him ignoring me.


I didn't tell you to do it to 'ruin' his fun. I told you to do it to restore your equilibrium. IME, once women get married, they tend to 'nest' into the role of wife, kind of disappearing, you know? And the more she does it, the less the husband thinks about her; after all, he knows she's not going anywhere; they're practically joined at the hip. It's basic psychology to take for granted what's easy to get and to pay more attention to what you have to respect, strive for.

And the way you talk about him, oh he's so important, oh his stuff is so important (i.e., I'm NOT as important as him and his stuff). If that pervades y'all's relationship, no wonder he feels entitled and ignores you so easily.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> I didn't tell you to do it to 'ruin' his fun. I told you to do it to restore your equilibrium. IME, once women get married, they tend to 'nest' into the role of wife, kind of disappearing, you know? And the more she does it, the less the husband thinks about her; after all, he knows she's not going anywhere; they're practically joined at the hip. It's basic psychology to take for granted what's easy to get and to pay more attention to what you have to respect, strive for.


Oh yes. This is true. I remember when I used to work he would ask me over and over again every single night about my day, my colleagues and my work. He would get so angry when I wouldn't fill him up with the details. TBH, I enjoyed it. It felt like sweet revenge.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Calling the 'love experts'*



Me'N'My'Girl said:


> It's just that he would rather spend his free time taking pictures than actually making effort to improve our marriage. But now that you mention it, it does feel like resentment.
> 
> It seems that everything I do or think of has resentment in it. I have so much to work on.


But recognition is the key. I started to get the 2x4 ready at the beginning of your post. 

Then in the middle, you acknowledged it, so I put it away.



Now I have to get out the "victim chair" 2x4... lol

You may have a long way to go, but you are bright, intuitive and worth it, right? Because all of this self improvement is for you, not for him. You are making yourself a better partner. Then it is HIS turn to step it up.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

OK, so I did not see this coming.

Two years ago my husband left his FB open and i got curious and checked his messages. I found a message with a girl which caught my attention. While nothing in particular was said, but I didn't recognize my H. He was explicit and just different. I asked him about it and he brushed it off as her being a good friend. I never came across her name before and I found it a bit odd but I left it at that.

I continued to monitor his messages though and found out that he had deleted their conversation. I asked him why and he told me that it upset me and that it was no big deal so he erased it. I did find some innocent conversations between him and other female friends. It caught my attention that he would delete some conversations. I asked him why and he would tell me that he just erases them automatically.That they're no big deal.

Two months later he changed his password. I asked him why and he told me that it really upset him that I was constantly monitoring his messages and that this is his private space. He accused me of not trusting him and made a big deal out of it. He knows all my passwords. I have nothing to hide and I never understood this private space talk. TBH, I never saw any red flags and it did feel like it was turning into a habit of me checking on him and I didn't like it so I just let it go.

Since then, all his electronic devices have been password protected. His Ipad, Iphone and laptop. We do have a shared laptop but he is always extra careful to log off out of all his accounts after using it. We are dealing with a lot of issues so I didn't want to add one more onto our list.

So I log onto our shared laptop now and it automatically opens his FB page. I checked his messages and found a conversation with the girl he talked to 2 years ago. She lives in the country he's working in now. it's very clear that the previous messages were deleted, but this is how it went: 

Her: I was thrilled to receive your message. 
H: my pleasure
H: I'm coming over next week
Her: wow! we have to meet up for lunch or dinner. You better call me
H: I definately will. Last time you didn't pick up
Her: trust me it wasn't intentional. I was soooo busy.
Her: You better call
H: sure

I checked an hour later and he had deleted the entire conversation. While it doesn't seem off but I wonder why he would delete the messages. He knows that I am not a jealous person. He has a lot of female friends and he talks to them and I never made an issue out of it. So I don't understand his need to hide this.

Is there a way to recover the old messages?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> I didn't tell you to do it to 'ruin' his fun. I told you to do it to restore your equilibrium. IME, once women get married, they tend to 'nest' into the role of wife, kind of disappearing, you know? And the more she does it, the less the husband thinks about her; after all, he knows she's not going anywhere; they're practically joined at the hip. It's basic psychology to take for granted what's easy to get and to pay more attention to what you have to respect, strive for.
> 
> And the way you talk about him, oh he's so important, oh his stuff is so important (i.e., I'm NOT as important as him and his stuff). If that pervades y'all's relationship, no wonder he feels entitled and ignores you so easily.


Yes, this was one of the other imbalances I saw... the photography thing.. question.. what is your hobby? Do you have one? Or is it all focused onhis? This was a MAJOR issue in my former marriage. My H was a big boy with BIG toys but when it came to me wanting a hobby, it was a fight to make room for it. This is tied to boundary issues. I highly recommend the book Boundaries by Townsend for you. 


Also, the female friends is a major issue. He needs to be transparent and you two team up on how to manage boundaries. Him shutting you out of how he handles women in his life is not ok.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yes, this was one of the other imbalances I saw... the photography thing.. question.. what is your hobby? Do you have one? Or is it all focused onhis? This was a MAJOR issue in my former marriage. My H was a big boy with BIG toys but when it came to me wanting a hobby, it was a fight to make room for it. This is tied to boundary issues. I highly recommend the book Boundaries by Townsend for you.
> 
> 
> Also, the female friends is a major issue. He needs to be transparent and you two team up on how to manage boundaries. Him shutting you out of how he handles women in his life is not ok.


My hobby is dancing. I take dancing classes and I'm really enjoying it. He doesn't mind it at all but I do prioritize my life. 

As for his female friends, we need to have a serious talk about it. I will no longer accept this.


----------



## turnera

Be prepared to learn more than you wanted to know. YOU may not see red flags, but I do. 

IIWY, I would install a keylogger on his computer before saying anything to him.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> Be prepared to learn more than you wanted to know. YOU may not see red flags, but I do.
> 
> IIWY, I would install a keylogger on his computer before saying anything to him.


Agreed and if I were you I would also calculate what is spent on each hobby and see how they compare.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Agreed and if I were you I would also calculate what is spent on each hobby and see how they compare.


Could you explain more?


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> IIWY, I would install a keylogger on his computer before saying anything to him.


I think he would easily find out. He is a computer geek.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Could you explain more?


Yea, like if the money spent on photography is WAY more than the dancing that is a boundary issue. It can be an indicator of you being way too permissive. Just to give you an example.. my ex had a automotive tool box that was $14,000 empty and we had two and then add up the tools inside the two of them and he could have bought a small house. Then add the hunting toys, fishing toys including a boat, hauling trailers, brand new pick up trucks every six months complete with after market accessories, large farm tractors even though we only had 4 acres, multiple collections including guns and gun safe... Etc.

The difference between his toys and my stuff was VAST even I worked too and put every dime I earned with his and cashed out my retirement twice to pay off debt he incurred. So... MAJOR boundary issues for me back then.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, like if the money spent on photography is WAY more than the dancing that is a boundary issue. It can be an indicator of you being way too permissive. Just to give you an example.. my ex had a automotive tool box that was $14,000 empty and we had two and then add up the tools inside the two of them and he could have bought a small house. Then add the hunting toys, fishing toys including a boat, hauling trailers, brand new pick up trucks every six months complete with after market accessories, large farm tractors even though we only had 4 acres, multiple collections including guns and gun safe... Etc.
> 
> The difference between his toys and my stuff was VAST even I worked too and put every dime I earned with his and cashed out my retirement twice to pay off debt he incurred. So... MAJOR boundary issues for me back then.


Well he really doesn't spend that much money. He would invest in a lens or filter or whatever it is every couple of months but I wouldn't say that he is way off. He doesn't mind me spending money on my dancing classes too. I don't think I have much to complain about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I think he would easily find out. He is a computer geek.


That's the beauty of keyloggers. They are built to be invisible - to everyone.

You have a lot of excuses.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> That's the beauty of keyloggers. They are built to be invisible - to everyone.
> 
> You have a lot of excuses.


I installed it once and he found out. Maybe I chose a lousy version.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Well he really doesn't spend that much money. He would invest in a lens or filter or whatever it is every couple of months but I wouldn't say that he is way off. He doesn't mind me spending money on my dancing classes too. I don't think I have much to complain about.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good!! So it's mainly just his time. And the girls....


----------



## LongWalk

There must be a way to get his password. Set up a camera and film him. Weightlifter has advice.

The other women who are his friends may happily become friends with benefits or fvck buddies if they flirt too much.

If you were eating meals with men one on one, would he be jealous?


----------



## turnera

What made you try to do it before?

PM Weightlifter; he's our tech guru, he can help you pick one.


----------



## farsidejunky

This is not a turn I expected. Definitely PM weightlifter and gus polinski. You must rule out an EA or PA before anything can be properly implemented.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Does kinda fit, but until you get some evidence, we only have conjectures.


----------



## AliceA

Would it bother him if you were having private conversations with many male friends and changed all your passwords so he didn't know them and made sure to delete all your messages? Maybe you should try changing all your passwords, log off everything that's shared and see if he gets annoyed. If he does, it might show he feels there's something wrong with this behaviour, meaning he is doing something wrong himself.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

breeze said:


> Would it bother him if you were having private conversations with many male friends and changed all your passwords so he didn't know them and made sure to delete all your messages? Maybe you should try changing all your passwords, log off everything that's shared and see if he gets annoyed. If he does, it might show he feels there's something wrong with this behaviour, meaning he is doing something wrong himself.


I did change all my passwords at some point and he never even realised I changed them. He never checks on me. I never did anything to break his trust though. I think he trusts me blindly. He knows I would never betray him.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> What made you try to do it before?


I installed it after I saw his conversation with this girl 2 years ago. I didn't like the way he talked to her. But he discovered it and I didn't like snooping on him so I never tried to proceed.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> If you were eating meals with men one on one, would he be jealous?


This is not even an option. And I don't think I would feel comfortable doing that. My experience with one to one meals with the opposite sex before marriage were never postive ones. Feelings always developed on the opposite side and I had to end the friendship many times.

He doesn't do one to one meals too. Ofcourse that I know of.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

turnera said:


> PM Weightlifter; he's our tech guru, he can help you pick one.


The thing is he rarely uses our shared laptop and when he does it is just for general stuff. The things he usually use are all password protected and they are work devices. I would never ever install anything on them.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

So I got carried away and sent him an email. I basicly told him that I was sick of his ways and that I will no longer allow him to deceive me. I told him that I made a mistake to trust him years ago and that I shouldn't have been so naiive. 

He replied in an extremely cold way that he hates that I constantly monitor him and that I'm the reason he keeps deleting everything. He wants to have his private space and that he is not one of my children and can't be told what to do and what not to do. He said that he wants to be with me and he made a lot of sacrifices for me and that he wouldn't become this low of a person. He said if you think that snooping on me would make you feel better then go ahead and do it, but just know that you are doing more harm than good and you are destroying whatever is left of this relationship. Go ahead and paint me as the bad guy if it would make you feel better.

I told him that he is blame shifting and that I will not accept it. It would've been better if he had apologized and acknowledged his mistakes. I will not accept this s*** anymore. I told him that I expect extreme transparency from now on and it is his choice. Either he agrees to it and gives me all his passwords or I would leave for good. Our life has been f*cked up for so long and I will not tolerate it any longer. I told him that he can think all he wants and I am waiting for his answer when he comes back.

This is really exhausting..


----------



## farsidejunky

Dang it, OP. This just serves to drive anything that may be happening further underground.

Of course, maybe you have enough to tell if you can remain this way or not.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

If you plan on backing up your words, make sure you have an exit strategy, and an idea of finances, plus custody. Tbh, from an outside view, the whole thing was one big ugly cycle. Don't ever reveal anything to your opponent. If he fails in being transparent, keep your cards hidden. Tipping your hands to your opponent is a bad idea. Have a secret way for you to leave and be stable. Ask for help and tell them to keep it secret. All your plans must be discrete as possible.

Also, you tipped your hand too early. he knows that you have been very vigilant on keeping tabs on him. Your best option is to wait for a chance, and possibly secretly track him, place a var in his car.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

His responses indicate something is up.

You are correct in expecting full transparency whether you check on him or not. 

Now, I would just be calm cool collected, accept no blame for that reasonable request. 

You needed that emotional release.

You decided to no longer carry his load of lack of transparency, good for you!

Lay it in his lap Sister. 

Sure you may have driven it underground, but it will come out if its there. He may not be in a full blown anything, but he is crossing some lines and he KNOWS it or he would not be blameshifting. Have you read Not Just Friends? I would require it of him.

Dont feel bad Honey.. that was a long time coming. He is taking you for granted.


----------



## LongWalk

Your situation has suddenly shifted. I am confused. The suspicions of infidelity have reared up to prominence in your troubles. Why didn't you mention them earlier?

I thought that your calm approach was helping you to gain perspective and self determination. Now you have challenged him over something that while perhaps critically important gives you little room to consider your choices.

You should have upped your surveillance quietly. Now your knowledge of what he may be up to is inconclusive.

Does your husband feel that he married beneath his sex ranking? Do you p


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> Your situation has suddenly shifted. I am confused. The suspicions of infidelity have reared up to prominence in your troubles. Why didn't you mention them earlier?
> 
> I thought that your calm approach was helping you to gain perspective and self determination. Now you have challenged him over something that while perhaps critically important gives you little room to consider your choices.
> 
> You should have upped your surveillance quietly. Now your knowledge of what he may be up to is inconclusive.
> 
> Does your husband feel that he married beneath his sex ranking? Do you p


Beneath his sex ranking? Definately not. Not trying to seem stuck up but I have always been a head turner and he knows it. Actually this plays a major part in his jealousy issues. He pursued me early on in the relationship.

I never mentioned it before because I seriously never thought it was a major issue. It was a one time thing two years ago and since he changed his passwords we never really discussed it again. I did believe him before when he said it was nothing. I admit I did try to snoop whenever I got a chance but I never found anything. It didn't really bother me till I saw this conversation yesterday.


----------



## farsidejunky

So, what now OP?

What if he does not agree to the transparency? You have provided an ultimatum. If he calls your bluff, and you are not prepared to follow through, you are sabotaging any form of enforcing a boundary in the future.

So what happens now?


----------



## LongWalk

I agree with Farside. However, the you that is refusing to be in victim - persecutor - saviour triangle can see this through. You need to practice going to 50,000ft to consider what is going on and how you are going to respond.

Your husband likes you uncomplicated and unresisting. Women are seldom uncomplicated. That doesn't matter as long as you are not a b*tch or nag. Spouses need to give and take in a healthy relationship.

I still think MC would be a good place to discuss these issues in an open fashion where there was safety for both of you. The mood must be very dark right now. How are you going to lighten it without appearing weak? He will not be attracted to weakness and vacillation.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

The strange thing is that I am feeling extremely cool about it all. I am not in a dark mood or anything. It's like theres something inside me that suddenly snapped and I am not that emotionally connected to him or angry anymore.

Knowing my husband, he will give me all his passwords but he will become passive aggressive about it all. I am still trying to figure out what to do with him after that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Xcellent... You are in calm assertive mode. 

You just simply chose to no longer tolerate that which was unacceptable to you. Perfect.

Now its his job to fix it.

And that is exactly what I would tell him.

Sets the tone that you are not to be taken for granted. 

He can chose to partner with you in making this home safe, loving and fun or it won't go well for him. 

Transparency is safe when it is handled respectfully.

Part of that process for me would include the two of you reading Not Just Friends, discussing it together and arriving at a mutual conclusion of how to move forward in a way that protects your marriage bond.

I would also read Boundaries by Townsend


----------



## Mr.Fisty

When he is passive aggressive, you simply wear a cool, calm, collective mask. Be as neutral as possible. Disengage and stay detach. It is showing him you will not be drawn in his drama. Only when he acts like an adult and has a real conversation do you respond.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mr.Fisty said:


> When he is passive aggressive, you simply wear a cool, calm, collective mask. Be as neutral as possible. Disengage and stay detach. It is showing him you will not be drawn in his drama. Only when he acts like an adult and has a real conversation do you respond.


:iagree: Perfect


----------



## LongWalk

Exactly. His poor attitude should not become a platform for power within your relationship. While he acts out you must maintain this distance.

When he is open you should communicate as if you are not in conflict. Above all you must be consistent without being wooden or vindictive.

With regards to other women you can say that you are not the jealous type, but you are not so foolish as to tolerate other women opening emotional waterholes to him when your relationship has become arid.

Are you able to have make up sex now?


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> With regards to other women you can say that you are not the jealous type, but you are not so foolish as to tolerate other women opening emotional waterholes to him when your relationship has become arid.


This is very good. I didn't want to seem insecure when we talk about it so I will use this line. Very reasonable.



> Are you able to have make up sex now?


He is still away. Not sure how things will progress. We haven't talked since I confronted him about his FB messages.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Remember, he has built up an emotional wall towards you. He will lash out, get defensive, and deflect. Only he can bring down those walls. 

My guess is that his facebook conversations has to do with him seeking emotional understanding elsewhere. He has not been meeting your emotional needs because he has his wall up, but he may be investing that energy elsewhere. Certainly, his secretive behavior, and actions aim the conclusion towrds some kind of affair. Until you catch him, or he admits, you have to be vigilant without him knowing.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Love the watering hole comment by Long Walk

And the vigilance by Fisty...

VERY wise.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> My guess is that his facebook conversations has to do with him seeking emotional understanding elsewhere. He has not been meeting your emotional needs because he has his wall up, but he may be investing that energy elsewhere. Certainly, his secretive behavior, and actions aim the conclusion towrds some kind of affair. Until you catch him, or he admits, you have to be vigilant without him knowing.


So he sends me a message telling me that he hasn't been feeling secure in our relationship for so long. He feels that no matter how hard he tries nothing will ever be accepted by me so he just gave up trying altogether. He says that he knows he'll never be enough for me. That I have a lot of expectations that he would never be able to meet so he has been looking for emotional security from family and friends. 

Really?! So I do all the heavylifting and he seeks emotional security from family and friends?! Well f*** that!


----------



## farsidejunky

"Husband, I have told you what I am willing to accept: total transparency. You can choose yes or no. Choosing not to decide tells me your answer is no."

Then any other attempts to whine, blame shift or negotiate need to go unanswered.


----------



## Hicks

I would answer "Nice Try".


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> "Husband, I have told you what I am willing to accept: total transparency. You can choose yes or no. Choosing not to decide tells me your answer is no."
> 
> Then any other attempts to whine, blame shift or negotiate need to go unanswered.


I know I need to be really assertive here. It's just so easy to get side tracked and absorbed in his blame shifting. He has this way which really gets to my nerves. I need to stay calm this time. I have to keep reminding myself.


----------



## LongWalk

Ask him to role play. You explain how he feels and he does the same for you. Flip a coin to see who goes first. You can satirize yourself to some degree and get him laugh.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

That was the pitiful me card.... to guilt you into acquiesce 

Stay the path... That was an attempt to get you to move off of transparency. 1st attempt was blame shifting, 2nd attempt was pity... Tell him... your attempts to get me to move off of transparency are not going to work Hon, its too reasonable and important to our long term success. With a very calm loving tone.  My H tried to pull that with me too..

And keep your self control.... I can hear it cracking. You need to wait at LEAST this one issue out so that you can see how effective consistent calm assertive works BEFORE making any long term decisions.


----------



## thenub

Maybe while he's away you can send him a naughty picture and tell him you're thinking of him and miss him.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Calling the 'love experts'*



thenub said:


> Maybe while he's away you can send him a naughty picture and tell him you're thinking of him and miss him.


And reinforce his poor behavior? 

No way.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

farsidejunky said:


> And reinforce his poor behavior?
> 
> No way.


He's not getting away with it this time.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> That was the pitiful me card.... to guilt you into acquiesce
> 
> Stay the path... That was an attempt to get you to move off of transparency. 1st attempt was blame shifting, 2nd attempt was pity... Tell him... your attempts to get me to move off of transparency are not going to work Hon, its too reasonable and important to our long term success. With a very calm loving tone.  My H tried to pull that with me too..
> 
> And keep your self control.... I can hear it cracking. You need to wait at LEAST this one issue out so that you can see how effective consistent calm assertive works BEFORE making any long term decisions.



I really don't understand this private space talk. I mean who ever said that private space means freedom to talk to all the females you want and hide it from the wife?? He has got it all wrong! It's either he has some mixed up values or he's trying to act dumb.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I really don't understand this private space talk. I mean who ever said that private space means freedom to talk to all the females you want and hide it from the wife?? He has got it all wrong! It's either he has some mixed up values or he's trying to act dumb.



Correct. Just because he believes it doesn't mean you have to accept it.

"H, I truly am interested in seeing our relationship thrive and in order to do that I realized I can no longer accept less than full transparency. I'm sorry this is a struggle for you."

Calm assertive.


----------



## DayOne

Sorry to see this take a bad turn. I was really hopeful he'd get his sh*t together.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yea, he's being a brat. Wants to keep his play things. Time to grow up and have play things that honor his marriage. You are doing him a favor by holding him accountable to the maturity it takes to love his wife well. He thinks he's "all that.". And every single one of those "just friends" toys are feeding that ego. If he were to choose to become someone of higher moral and integral fiber his ego would feed from the inside instead of the outside and make him more stable. From there is where he would love you well..


----------



## LongWalk

MNMG,

Your husband has legitimate complaints against you. Above all you have sent him confused messages about boundaries. Unhappiness and discontent without consequences creates a kind of diffuse friction that envelopes a marriage.

You need to be firm about principles without anger, unless something outrageous occurs. Even then though it is better to think things through.

If you become a stronger person, will he be attracted to you? 

In MC you could ask your husband what being pvssy whipped entails. 

How are doing in finding work and hobbies to gain autonomy?

Your husband has validation at work. Is this inequality?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yea, as frustrated as I am about your H's attitude, it is very important for you to keep your side of the street clean, self assess accurately and just own up to it of you know what I just didn't keep consistent boundaries or standards and so that part is on me kind of attitude but I am facing my issues head on and am asking you to do the same.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Your emotions is sending you all over the place. Seek a stable center and learn to operate from there. Emotions are ever fluctuating and making decisions during emotional highs and lows, will make you seem eratic.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I think its because the resentment has built so much back pressure that she's struggling navigating calm assertive since so much unresolved hurt is pressing to get out. 

One of the things I did OP when I was struggling with the same is I would take one of my horse whips and go beat the stew out of a barrel or fence post to release the frustration. It helped tremendously. I only had to do it a couple of times. I've heard others say running does that for them. When you feel that pressure rising go release it on something else for now to give y'all enough room to navigate this thing.


----------



## jld

I could not be married to someone passive-aggressive. For me, it would be a dealbreaker.

You are _way_ more tolerant than I am, OP.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

She could put a picture of his face on a boxing bag, and release her frustrations. Do it somewhere privately, or you will sound like a crazy person yelling at a punching bag, and trying to destroy it at the same time. Jk. Physical exertions help by relieving tension and some frustration. Sometimes you lose focus of what is bothering you, and your focus is placed on what you are doing. I don't do the dominatrix thing like blossom, but I lift weights and go for a run. Plus the bonus is it stops my a$$ from resembling jello.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

dominatrix.. lol I am so not that


----------



## Abc123wife

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I can't forget that he left me alone while giving birth to my son alone in a strange country and for the nhext two days at my hospital stay. I had no friends or family with me and I was so scared and vulnerable. those post pregnancy hormones really mess with your mind.


I know the thread has gone on past this, but I am just floored that he left you to give birth on your own. Can you explain a little more. Was he really not even there for the actual birth? Or did he leave shortly afterwards? Either way, where was he? 

Maybe in his screwed up view he figured you had all the help you needed at the hospital and felt he needed to be home with your other 2 children. Regardless, he really should have been there! Besides saying sorry, what were his reasons for not being there for you? 

If for nothing else, he needs to get therapy to understand basic female needs.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Abc123wife said:


> I know the thread has gone on past this, but I am just floored that he left you to give birth on your own. Can you explain a little more. Was he really not even there for the actual birth? Or did he leave shortly afterwards? Either way, where was he?
> 
> Maybe in his screwed up view he figured you had all the help you needed at the hospital and felt he needed to be home with your other 2 children. Regardless, he really should have been there! Besides saying sorry, what were his reasons for not being there for you?
> 
> If for nothing else, he needs to get therapy to understand basic female needs.


I was at the hospital for 4 hours before he actually came. Then he totally disappeared and the midwives tried doing me a favour and looked for him then they just gave up. After baby was born he showed up again, stayed for a short while and went wandering somewhere else. The next two days I barely saw him. He decided that work was way more important.

I remember being 8cm dilated and really struggling with the labour pains when he showed up and said "you don't look like you're in a lot of pain. Are you sure you will be giving birth now?". I wanted to punch him so hard but I was blinded by the pain.

The thing that hurted me the most was when one nurse apologized that she forgot to check up on me as my room was so quiet and had no visitors she actually forgot that there was someone in there. I cried my eyes out after she left. 

He had no real reasons. Just the I didn't know you really wanted me to be there or something along those lines. Yes, it takes a genius to figure out you need to be with your wife when she's giving birth to your son. Whatever.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> If you become a stronger person, will he be attracted to you?
> 
> *yes I am pretty sure he is attracted to strong women. I am by no means a soft cookie. The major thing I am lacking now is financial independence. I just don't feel comfortable yet sending my son to daycare. I have to wait it out for a few more months. *
> 
> Your husband has validation at work. Is this inequality?
> 
> * I think part of the reason he neglects me is just that. He does have power and validation at work. I do find myself envying him sometimes. Not that I don't feel proud of him, but I don't see myself as a SAHM. I have a lot of potential and feel I should take advantage of that. *


----------



## karole

Man, what a jerk! No wonder you have resentment. I don't know if I could ever get over that or not were I in your position.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I was at the hospital for 4 hours before he actually came. Then he totally disappeared and the midwives tried doing me a favour and looked for him then they just gave up. After baby was born he showed up again, stayed for a short while and went wandering somewhere else. The next two days I barely saw him. He decided that work was way more important.
> 
> I remember being 8cm dilated and really struggling with the labour pains when he showed up and said "you don't look like you're in a lot of pain. Are you sure you will be giving birth now?". I wanted to punch him so hard but I was blinded by the pain.
> 
> The thing that hurted me the most was when one nurse apologized that she forgot to check up on me as my room was so quiet and had no visitors she actually forgot that there was someone in there. I cried my eyes out after she left.
> 
> He had no real reasons. Just the I didn't know you really wanted me to be there or something along those lines. Yes, it takes a genius to figure out you need to be with your wife when she's giving birth to your son. Whatever.


This is very much a transparency issue. So he was actually there, but would pop in and out since he thought you were handling things fine. (I know, some guys are clueless) My biggest issue with this is him leaving and not coming to you and saying, hey honey, I'm going to run to my office are you sure you are ok? The just leaving out of the blue without a word is problematic. To be honest communicates affair flags to me.


----------



## karole

Agreed about the red flags of an affair.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> Your emotions is sending you all over the place. Seek a stable center and learn to operate from there. Emotions are ever fluctuating and making decisions during emotional highs and lows, will make you seem eratic.


I have so many thoughts going through my mind. I jump from one place to another in a heartbeat. Sometimes it feels like I don't make sense. I try to think of my shortcomings and find myself bombarded with a million other thoughts of the built up resentments inside me. 

I know I am not an angel. A lot of the things he said is true. I do criticize him a lot. Sometimes his every move irritates me. Lately he has been trying to get through to me but he reached a point where he feels that whatever he does would never be good enough for me. 

But on the other hand, he was never a supportive husband. I don't feel free to talk to him about anything and everything. Whatever I say will be analyzed, judged and held against me sometime down the line. 

It's clear my thoughts are all over the place now. I just need to calm down and tackle the issues one by one.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> To be honest communicates affair flags to me.


More like a work-affair flag if something like that exists. It feels like he is married to his job. 

I seriously doubt he's having an affair. I think he is after recognition from his female friends if you ask me. Something like wow your wife is so lucky to have you kind of thing.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> More like a work-affair flag if something like that exists. It feels like he is married to his job.
> 
> I seriously doubt he's having an affair. I think he is after recognition from his female friends if you ask me. Something like wow your wife is so lucky to have you kind of thing.



He is definitely gettinv his ego stroked


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Keep working towards that independence. My father past away when I was 15, and I had to help out my mother. It is best in life to take precautions. When you are able, put that energy into your career. You may have to cut some expectations from your husband and view him realistically. He is a flake. He will not be there for you emotionally, and he probably will not be around when you need him. 

Also keep working on those issues. If you do leave, those anger and resentment issues will follow you. Please do work on communication too, for if you leave and do decide to date again, you will recognize if that person too has great communication skills. Or if your husband does want to keep you in his life, he has to develop this skill.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> More like a work-affair flag if something like that exists. It feels like he is married to his job.
> 
> I seriously doubt he's having an affair. I think he is after recognition from his female friends if you ask me. Something like wow your wife is so lucky to have you kind of thing.



Too bad they don't know about his m.i.a. behavior.


----------



## Anon1111

The infidelity changes the story. That really sucks. 

If I were you I would spend some time trying to reflect on whether you can really see a future together. 

To be honest, your foundation was so rocky that it is hard to see how you could withstand this.

If you do still think you can try to reconcile, you need to both be committed. He needs to be 100% honest about who this woman is and his communications. He needs to put a serious effort into regaining your trust. It sounds like he's not willing to do that at this point.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Anon1111 said:


> If you do still think you can try to reconcile, you need to both be committed. He needs to be 100% honest about who this woman is and his communications. He needs to put a serious effort into regaining your trust.


He is coming home tomorrow. He better be prepared cause I will not let him off the hook easily this time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

Don't hit him when he first gets in the door... How long is he going to be home?


----------



## LongWalk

Agree. You should be pleasant and not seek argument. What you need is discourse. You need MC.

If he reaches out to you, accept the offering. 

For the time being wait for him to raise some issue. When he does ask him if he is ready to sit down and discuss it. Repeat what he says back to him and ask him if you got it right.

Does he twist your words? Belittle you?

My father did this to my mother for decades because he felt insecure.

His absence from your son's birth was strange. Perhaps labor, etc disturb him?


----------



## Anon1111

easier said than done, I know, but I agree with the others regarding avoiding attack mode.

Think ahead of time what you want to accomplish with the conversation. 

If you find yourself getting away from that in the heat of the moment, stop yourself and re-focus. If you find the conversation is altogether getting out of control (due to his behavior or yours), tell your husband that you're getting off track and you will revisit this later. Then walk away.

Remember, you do not gain anything by turning this into yet another in a long string of arguments. It doesn't help you reconcile and it won't change anything if you decide you need to split.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Actually, he has a habit on disappearing on her. She states it as one of her issues. They will be together, and he pulls a disappearing act and she does not know where he is. When he is gone, it is like out of sight , out of mind. Unless she contacts him, she really does not have a clue on him.

Just stay vigilant, and make plans with friends. Just be cordial like an acquaintance until he is ready to decide if he wants to talk about it and work on it. Keep a certain level of emotional distance, and leave the ball in his court. He knows what the issues are, and if he wants the marriage, then he has to come to the table. Your chasing him and you want to hash things out with him, and he keeps running away further. Stop the chase and disengage. It has not worked yet and looks like it will not anytime soon. 

Then instead of using that energy to chase him, use it to improve yourself. Be happy and keep living life. Start new hobbies, and work out to relieve tension. Just shift the relationship to platonic until he is ready to be a partner.


----------



## Abc123wife

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> He had no real reasons. Just the I didn't know you really wanted me to be there or something along those lines. Yes, it takes a genius to figure out you need to be with your wife when she's giving birth to your son. Whatever.


So how did you end up at the hospital for 4 hours before he even showed up? Did he drop you off there and leave? What was so important that he had to leave when you were at 8 cm? Did he not know that 8 cm on the birth of a 3rd child can mean only minutes away for some women? Did he leave the building or just go off to the cafeteria to eat or something? Did he tell you before he left or did he just disappear? How long was it before he came back? Did he ever account for where he went to?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but I am just having a hard time wrapping my head around this! He could easily win the most horrible husband award for this one event! I can only imagine the huge resentment you have.

Also, I went back and read your threads from as far back as 2010. It seems this behavior and his issues are nothing new. I hate to say it but your H sounds like a selfish, self-centered as$, bad at sex, not interested in your well-being or meeting your needs at all. Not sure that you will ever get him to want to see anything from your perspective. I have a feeling he isn't capable or at least not interested in ever changing. It is no wonder you have so much resentment. You have to decide if you can live another 50-70 years with it.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Abc123wife said:


> So how did you end up at the hospital for 4 hours before he even showed up? Did he drop you off there and leave? What was so important that he had to leave when you were at 8 cm? Did he not know that 8 cm on the birth of a 3rd child can mean only minutes away for some women? Did he leave the building or just go off to the cafeteria to eat or something? Did he tell you before he left or did he just disappear? How long was it before he came back? Did he ever account for where he went to?


It was just a normal day and I had my usual weekly appointment. I went in there alone and was not aware that I will be having the baby that day. After an ultrasound and an internal examination my dr found me to be already 4 cm dilated with a soft cervix. She sent me to the labour ward immediately. I suddenly panicked as I was not expecting this though it was my third child. I called him and told him that I really needed him to come and that I was so scared. Well that was 10 am and he showed up at around 3 pm. I had the baby at 4:30 pm exactly. When he showed up he stayed with me for a short time and then told me that he will go check on things and will be back. At this point I was in so much pain I didn't ask further questions. I didn't see him till after the baby was born as they were taking me to my room. He never hugged me or told me that I did a great job. It was like yeah thats the third time, no big deal.



> Sorry to ask so many questions, but I am just having a hard time wrapping my head around this! He could easily win the most horrible husband award for this one event! I can only imagine the huge resentment you have.


I have never felt so abandoned in my whole life.



> Also, I went back and read your threads from as far back as 2010. It seems this behavior and his issues are nothing new. I hate to say it but your H sounds like a selfish, self-centered as$, bad at sex, not interested in your well-being or meeting your needs at all. Not sure that you will ever get him to want to see anything from your perspective. *I have a feeling he isn't capable or at least not interested in ever changing.* It is no wonder you have so much resentment. You have to decide if you can live another 50-70 years with it.


Sometimes I wonder if he is having a hard time understanding the basic requirements of a marriage. It's like he really doesn't get it. Other times it feels like he doesn't want to put in any efforts. He's telling himself that he's being the best husband a woman could ever ask for.

The sex is a whole different story.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Don't hit him when he first gets in the door... How long is he going to be home?


He's staying for three weeks.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> Does he twist your words? Belittle you?
> 
> My father did this to my mother for decades because he felt insecure.


He belittles the things I do for him. He always tells me that I do nothing for him. That all my life revolves around my children and that I am the perfect mother but I am a failure as a wife. 



> His absence from your son's birth was strange. Perhaps labor, etc disturb him?


I think he was running away from the actual birth. He can't even stand being in the same room as me when I'm changing the diaper for my son. These things disgust him. He has never once changed a diaper for any of our children.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> Actually, he has a habit on disappearing on her. She states it as one of her issues. They will be together, and he pulls a disappearing act and she does not know where he is. When he is gone, it is like out of sight , out of mind. Unless she contacts him, she really does not have a clue on him.


We've had countless fights regarding this issue. It's not that he only disappears on me, but he has a hard time giving me his undivided attention. When we're talking he has to be doing something else. When I get upset he tells me that it's so boring for him to be sitting there doing nothing. After we have sex he is in such a hurry to get up or just sleep. It really feels like he doesn't enjoy my company.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

How did he behave on the first two births?


----------



## LongWalk

Now that diapers are disposable it isn't very hard.

Your husband is not 100%. Perhaps he suffered emotional abuse as a child?

Fisty and ABCWife have summed up your choices:
One alternative is to take him for what he is and make a life for yourself. You can love him more like a big man child who is emotionally not mature. Enjoy him but don't expect him to meet expectations that you took for granted.

The other path is to get out.

There is no certainty about either choice, except that both require work. Which will suit you better?

Since you husband is not a fundamentally bad person there is a strong argument to seeing your marriage through. Find satisfying work/hobby and compartmentalize his dysfunction. Will you relationship become loveless as a consequence?

Divorce will create turmoil and a great deal of work. Finding a new husband who would be a good step dad and meet your needs is possible but there is not guarantee.

Going to work will give you perspective but perhaps make you vulnerable to affairs.

I don't think you can best figure it out until you get to MC.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> How did he behave on the first two births?


Well he was there not necessarily supportive but all my family and friends were there I wasn't bothered much. I thought he stepped back a little as everyone was there for me.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> Fisty and ABCWife have summed up your choices:
> One alternative is to take him for what he is and make a life for yourself. You can love him more like a big man child who is emotionally not mature. Enjoy him but don't expect him to meet expectations that you took for granted.
> 
> The other path is to get out.


Do you mean that it is impossible for him to improve? I think I live on the hope that he will snap out of it some day. I need to stop doing this to myself and be realistic.



> Going to work will give you perspective but perhaps make you vulnerable to affairs.


Maybe this is exactly what I need. I would never cheat but it could give me the boost I need to leave this relationship if we could no longer work it out.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

As a partner, your husband is really incompetent. As a father, does he seem more like their buddy or father? I get the impression it is the former. If that is the case, they need a father more than they need a playmate. That could be reserved for aunts and uncles.

Longwalk is right, somehow your husband is emotionally stunted, and that is someone's else job to figure out. The way you describe him, he seeks constant validation for who he is. He is seeking everyone's approval, and when he gets yours, he is satisfied, but, he can't meet your emotional needs in return. Even if you met all his needs, your seem to be ignored. So if you view him like a child and give him a cookie whenever he does something well, that is pretty much what your relationship will look like. You do have a hybrid of a man/child as your husband. Does kind of explain the lack of empathy, because as children their world is more self-centric. Of course , a professional should evaluate him for a proper prognosis.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> As a partner, your husband is really incompetent. As a father, does he seem more like their buddy or father? I get the impression it is the former. If that is the case, they need a father more than they need a playmate. That could be reserved for aunts and uncles.


He is definately more of a buddy. He never sees them on the weekdays as they're asleep by the time he is home from work. And they leave for school way before he wakes up. On the weekends he's their buddy. He's been away for ten days now, Not once did any of my children ask about him. This shows they're just used to him being away. But they adore him. 



> *So if you view him like a child and give him a cookie whenever he does something well,*that is pretty much what your relationship will look like. You do have a hybrid of a man/child as your husband.


This is exactly how it feels sometimes. Very frustrating.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

His issues sound cultural or his father was this way.


----------



## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> His issues sound cultural or his father was this way.


BL, he IS a replication of his father.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> BL, he IS a replication of his father.


Then you will have to discern in light of that which of your expectations are reasonable and which are not.

Transparency is reasonable

Expecting him to change his detached man way he was raised with, not as reasobable UNLESS he is willing. 

You will have to choose what you bruise yourself on and what you won't


----------



## Mr.Fisty

You have to break the cycle with your children, and more of the parental responsibilities will be placed on your shoulder. You may have to pay extra attention to their emotional developement since they lack a constant male role model, and your husband would not be a great one anyways. He is pretty much good at teaching them escapism.


----------



## LongWalk

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Do you mean that it is impossible for him to improve? I think I live on the hope that he will snap out of it some day. I need to stop doing this to myself and be realistic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe this is exactly what I need. I would never cheat but it could give me the boost I need to leave this relationship if we could no longer work it out.



Can he improve? Hard to say. My father became less abusive because he declined mentally. When exactly did Alzheimer's begin?

In some sense he improved. He adores my mother. He would have died without her. He doesn't know who she is all of the time.

My mother is not the sort to dwell on regret. Her mother did, but she seemed determined to live differently.

If my mother had laid down boundaries earlier, my parents life my have been better.

Concentrate on your life for the time being. Ask your husband — in the sanctuary of MC — what he wants from marriage? 

To his mind he wants very little. You are, on the other hand, very demanding from his point of view because he does not understand reciprocity. He does not multi task emotional calculus.

Have you ever walked a dog that doesn't understand how the leash is caught on the lamp post or tree?

Eventually even stupid dogs figure it out. The dog owner will go crazy if she follows the hound.

Have you ever thrown a dinner party for your husband's colleagues?

Ask him who he likes best. Invite three couples. Throw in the odd single. Observe their interaction. Be a gracious hostess. Listen. Smile. Figure them out.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> Then you will have to discern in light of that which of your expectations are reasonable and which are not.
> 
> Transparency is reasonable
> 
> Expecting him to change his detached man way he was raised with, not as reasobable UNLESS he is willing.
> 
> You will have to choose what you bruise yourself on and what you won't


It also dawns on me that these things were not as evident OR were more acceptable when you had your family around you. You may very well be ok with being married to him long term IF you are around your family to take up the gap in need that his personality leaves you. So,you guys may need to either move back home or build a REALLY strong support system where you are.

ETA: But DO NOT back off this transparency issue. Just don't beat him with it right now... just beat the drum slow and steady until he "gets it."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I love the dog analogy LW. When I walk my dog, I don't try to untangle her from anything, I expect her to untangle herself and find her way back to me.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

For some levity. You should nickname your husband houdini, because he is a great escape artist. Now you see him, and now you don't could be your punchline.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

There was a visual I thought of for you guys and its this...

Your marriage is supposed to be a respite for each other. A place of total trust and safety.

BUT Every time he asks you to accept his lack of transparency he is in essence asking you to accept laying down on a bed of thorns in what is supposed to be your respite with him.

SAME for you... every time you accost him in a caustic way, though your request may be reasonable, you are asking him to accept your premise regardless of your approach and to him its like you are asking him to lay down on a bed of thorns in what is supposed to be his respite with you.

Thus... you must ask for your reasonable request in a way that leaves the bed of thorns out of it. You are interested in cultivating a respite and you can stand your ground without cruelty. If he accepts, then you both have stopped asking for the other to accept the bed of thorns, but instead have become the respite you are meant to be.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Blossom Leigh said:


> I love the dog analogy LW. When I walk my dog, I don't try to untangle him from anything, I expect her to untangle herself and find her way back to me.


 Well, they do sell leashes for humans. Everytime he tries and run away, you can pull on the leash. Tell him he is a bad boy. Train him like Pavlov's dog. When he does something good, you can give him a treat.


----------



## jld

Mr.Fisty said:


> Well, they do sell leashes for humans. Everytime he tries and run away, you can pull on the leash. Tell him he is a bad boy. Train him like Pavlov's dog. When he does something good, you can give him a treat.


Sarcasm, right?

Have you read Alfie Kohn?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

jld said:


> Sarcasm, right?
> 
> Have you read Alfie Kohn?



I will let each reader figure that one out on their own. And no, I haven't read it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mr.Fisty said:


> Well, they do sell leashes for humans. Everytime he tries and run away, you can pull on the leash. Tell him he is a bad boy. Train him like Pavlov's dog. When he does something good, you can give him a treat.


Hey, whatever works... LOL

No, seriously, it's truly the same concept. You stay in place on your truth (aka transparency) and let him find his way to you. Then when he does relax.


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## jld

Mr.Fisty said:


> I will let each reader figure that one out on their own. And no, I haven't read it.


He is an author who is against behaviorism. No rewards and punishments for him.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> It also dawns on me that these things were not as evident OR were more acceptable when you had your family around you. You may very well be ok with being married to him long term IF you are around your family to take up the gap in need that his personality leaves you. So,you guys may need to either move back home or build a REALLY strong support system where you are.
> 
> ETA: But DO NOT back off this transparency issue. Just don't beat him with it right now... just beat the drum slow and steady until he "gets it."


Very true. The issues were always there but I learned to dismiss some of them as I had a very strong support system. I'm trying to build one here and I'll get there for sure. Things are much better than they were a year ago. I've made a few good friends. These things take time and I have all the patience in the world.


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## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Very true. The issues were always there but I learned to dismiss some of them as I had a very strong support system. I'm trying to build one here and I'll get there for sure. Things are much better than they were a year ago. I've made a few good friends. These things take time and I have all the patience in the world.


Good... just take some very intentional time to accurately and fairly assess what you guys need over there, what can be changed and can't be changed, what you will accept and wont accept, get feedback from good counsel, practice kindness, patience, love in order to cultivate joy, peace and fun. It can be done. 

I have horses, my H is not a horse guy. Some of our worst fights have been because of them. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to accepting accurately and fairly.


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## Abc123wife

If your husband misses every bedtime because he gets home at 9pm, why is he not making sure that he is up to see them off to school? It sounds like he does not expect to have any family responsibilities. And if weekends are the only time he has with his children, how does he have time for his photography hobby? Nothing wrong with having a hobby, but if he works so much during the week that he does not see the kids, he should want to spend every free moment on the weekend with them. And when is your break from 3 kids under 5 years old. You are 100% responsible during the week? And apparently weekends too?


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## Anon1111

Abc123wife said:


> If your husband misses every bedtime because he gets home at 9pm, why is he not making sure that he is up to see them off to school? It sounds like he does not expect to have any family responsibilities. And if weekends are the only time he has with his children, how does he have time for his photography hobby? Nothing wrong with having a hobby, but if he works so much during the week that he does not see the kids, he should want to spend every free moment on the weekend with them. And when is your break from 3 kids under 5 years old. You are 100% responsible during the week? And apparently weekends too?


So, I do not exactly want to defend this guy because he sounds like he has a lot of problems.

On the other hand, I do think I understand how the situation you described above develops because I have been that way myself in the past.

OP's husband seems to have a very high stress job. He works a ton and he probably never really leaves work mentally when he is at home.

He gets home late every night and then probably tries to find a way to "escape" mentally for a few hours to de-stress. By the he has decompressed, it is after midnight. He sleeps later than everyone else because he is up much later. 

He's on a completely different schedule than everyone else in his family. To other people, it probably seems like a lot of this is a choice, but to him it probably does not feel that way.

His photography is another escape. He does not have to engage with anyone, just play with his equipment and hide within his own mind.

He probably feels like he is completely maxed out mentally and he is doing everything he can do to manage.

I doubt he could just change one thing in his schedule and correct this situation. I also doubt that he could give up his hobby-- it seems like it is a major crutch for him right now.

He and OP need to do a survey of their entire lifestyle and rethink it because it is clearly not working. The husband's job is a huge factor in this.


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## Blossom Leigh

Anon1111 said:


> So, I do not exactly want to defend this guy because he sounds like he has a lot of problems.
> 
> On the other hand, I do think I understand how the situation you described above develops because I have been that way myself in the past.
> 
> OP's husband seems to have a very high stress job. He works a ton and he probably never really leaves work mentally when he is at home.
> 
> He gets home late every night and then probably tries to find a way to "escape" mentally for a few hours to de-stress. By the he has decompressed, it is after midnight. He sleeps later than everyone else because he is up much later.
> 
> He's on a completely different schedule than everyone else in his family. To other people, it probably seems like a lot of this is a choice, but to him it probably does not feel that way.
> 
> His photography is another escape. He does not have to engage with anyone, just play with his equipment and hide within his own mind.
> 
> He probably feels like he is completely maxed out mentally and he is doing everything he can do to manage.
> 
> I doubt he could just change one thing in his schedule and correct this situation. I also doubt that he could give up his hobby-- it seems like it is a major crutch for him right now.
> 
> He and OP need to do a survey of their entire lifestyle and rethink it because it is clearly not working. The husband's job is a huge factor in this.



Totally agree Anon. If it were me this is the route I would take. I would totally quit this job, move my family back to the states, no questions asked.


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## LongWalk

Someone mentioned that you had other threads. I went and read some of them. Your marriage has been struggling for 4 years.

You wrote about the lack of affection after sex. He has to get up and wash immediately. 



> yep that a very good idea.i may try using those 'jizz rags'
> *but i dont think his reason of getting up is just to clean up..what bothers me most is that after having sex he's so in a hurry to watch tv or to log on to the internet or even to sleep.* i dont think its only the "being clean" issue here.i tried talking to him but he never gives me a straight forward answer.


This is just not right. One the best things in life is have wild monkey sex and then pass out in each others arms, drinking in the funky smell. The "jizz rags" are perfect. Okay sometimes you have to go pee, but when you're in love. You can't wait for the sound of the toilet fluching and of the light switch that signals your honey is getting back in bed.

Moping up the wet spot with a T-shirt, running your finger through you lover's hair, cupping a breast, spooning, how can someone go without all of that. Okay, love does not burn as bright, but there have to be moments.

Your husband seems affectless. How can he blame you for not loving him? You have three kids together. That's a statement. 

Basically it sounds as if you never had a good sex life. Why did you marry him?

MC is a must.


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## Mr.Fisty

LongWalk said:


> Someone mentioned that you had other threads. I went and read some of them. Your marriage has been struggling for 4 years.
> 
> You wrote about the lack of affection after sex. He has to get up and wash immediately.
> 
> 
> 
> This is just not right. One the best things in life is have wild monkey sex and then pass out in each others arms, drinking in the funky smell. The "jizz rags" are perfect. Okay sometimes you have to go pee, but when you're in love. You can't wait for the sound of the toilet fluching and of the light switch that signals your honey is getting back in bed.
> 
> Moping up the wet spot with a T-shirt, running your finger through you lover's hair, cupping a breast, spooning, how can someone go without all of that. Okay, love does not burn as bright, but there have to be moments.
> 
> Your husband seems affectless. How can he blame you for not loving him? You have three kids together. That's a statement.
> 
> Basically it sounds as if you never had a good sex life. Why did you marry him?
> 
> MC is a must.



I thought for a moment you were going to write an erotica, and then it ended. I think when they were living around family, she had her emotional needs met there, so the lack of his intimacy was not noticeable. They both were pretty much distracted until they became strangers. Also, she may have to accept the fact that he is not the affectionate type. If that is one of her love language, wow, are they in serious trouble. It seems like she does like the cuddling, and holding aspect, plus she wants the communication too. He may have less needs in what he wants or needs in a relationship, and does not understand that she needs more. He may be clueless on what needs are. My needs are sex, and quality time to feel close so it will not take a lot for me to feel love.


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## Blossom Leigh

My ex is a LOT like her H.

Distracted by everything and everybody.

#1 question the entire time we were together was "where's your H?"

After 17 years... I was done with it.


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## LongWalk

OP's husband is intelligent and can get it. The question is can she change herself enough to flourish as a person while remaining in love with him as he struggles to catch up?

The reason I suggested that OP invite husband's colleagues to dinner is for her to observe their interaction. Does he read their verbal and non-verbal communication easily?


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## Me'N'My'Girl

So I had a very busy couple of days. I took sometime out to assess my life a bit.

Well, things are fine on my end. My H came back 3 days ago. TBH, I was surprised by my reaction when I saw him. I still love this man so much.

I think you are all right. There is very little chance that he will change. If I am to live with him I just have to accept him for who he is. Right now I am trying to figure out if I can do that. Things are going fine now. Not sure I'll say this two weeks down the road.


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## farsidejunky

That sounds a lot like burying your discontent. Sowing the seeds of resentment yet again.

I ain't buying it, OP. And neither are you.


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## DayOne

Far is right. You're rug sweeping. Quit it. Get the life YOU want, either with or without him. Don't settle. You'll not be happy. But you already know this, don't you.


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## Mr.Fisty

Even though you love him, if your emotional needs go long enough unsatisfied, it will not be long before you fall out of love with him. Could it be that you care about him that you do not want to see him hurt. Even if you move closer to family again, it will be your husband that you want to fulfill that emotional need, not your family. You can't honestly say that your okay with not being intimate. You probably do not feel love like you want, because there is a real lack of connection.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

We had a heart to heart talk and he asked me for a chance. He acknowledged that there is a huge change in me and that he appreciates it. I told him that I am giving it my all for the very last time. He asked me to stay course and not judge him for some time, just point out when something hurts me and that he will do his best to change it. And this is exactly what I will do.

I had a small conversation today with an old friend of mine. I found myself debating with her the positive sides of divorce. I think I am starting to put down my walls regarding the divorce issue. It's not as scary as it used to be.

I am planning my exit strategy. I am giving this relationship 6 more months. By the end of this school year I will have planned everything if I give up on this relationship. And I will be ready to go.

Right now I am concentrating on making this work. I am doing my best and I am hoping for the best.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> Even though you love him, if your emotional needs go long enough unsatisfied, it will not be long before you fall out of love with him. Could it be that you care about him that you do not want to see him hurt. Even if you move closer to family again, it will be your husband that you want to fulfill that emotional need, not your family. You can't honestly say that your okay with not being intimate. You probably do not feel love like you want, because there is a real lack of connection.


We have been intimate the past few days and I honestly forgot how wonderful it could be. Hoping it's not just a phase.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> #1 question the entire time we were together was "where's your H?"


Oh, I can relate so well. I am trying to accept it as a flaw in him. I think I am trying to view him in a different way now. That he's not doing this to hurt me. It takes the pressure of a bit. I try to think of his otherwise good qualities.


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## Blossom Leigh

Now is the time to ask for less distraction, and changes to his work, sleeping hours to the degree that you and the kids are no longer put last on his list. You have his ear for now...


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## Mr.Fisty

Don't give him the time limit. Make sure it is genuine. Even after that six months, make sure that he does not slip. He has turned his behavior into a habit, and he will have to create new habits. You should not always have to remind him, he has to learn to stand on his own too. Also, you don't want him trying for six months,only for him to revert to his old self when he feels safe. Make sure he sees a counselor, you want him to recognize his underlying issues, make him deal with it, so he can learn to move on.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

On a more positive note, I had several different strangers tell me how I look so much like Angelina Jolie. You bet it made my day!


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## DayOne

Mr.Fisty said:


> Don't give him the time limit. Make sure it is genuine. Even after that six months, make sure that he does not slip. He has turned his behavior into a habit, and he will have to create new habits. You should not always have to remind him, he has to learn to stand on his own too. Also, you don't want him trying for six months,only for him to revert to his old self when he feels safe. Make sure he sees a counselor, you want him to recognize his underlying issues, make him deal with it, so he can learn to move on.



:iagree:


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## DayOne

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> We have been intimate the past few days and I honestly forgot how wonderful it could be. Hoping it's not just a phase.



Don't get lost in the sex 'fog'. A mistake I almost made. 'Getting some' is only a very tiny part (pardon the pun) of a relationship.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> Don't give him the time limit. Make sure it is genuine. Even after that six months, make sure that he does not slip. He has turned his behavior into a habit, and he will have to create new habits. You should not always have to remind him, he has to learn to stand on his own too. Also, you don't want him trying for six months,only for him to revert to his old self when he feels safe. Make sure he sees a counselor, you want him to recognize his underlying issues, make him deal with it, so he can learn to move on.


I didn't tell him that I am giving it six months. I just told him that it is my very last try.


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Anon1111 said:


> So, I do not exactly want to defend this guy because he sounds like he has a lot of problems.
> 
> On the other hand, I do think I understand how the situation you described above develops because I have been that way myself in the past.
> 
> OP's husband seems to have a very high stress job. He works a ton and he probably never really leaves work mentally when he is at home.
> 
> He gets home late every night and then probably tries to find a way to "escape" mentally for a few hours to de-stress. By the he has decompressed, it is after midnight. He sleeps later than everyone else because he is up much later.
> 
> He's on a completely different schedule than everyone else in his family. To other people, it probably seems like a lot of this is a choice, but to him it probably does not feel that way.
> 
> His photography is another escape. He does not have to engage with anyone, just play with his equipment and hide within his own mind.
> 
> He probably feels like he is completely maxed out mentally and he is doing everything he can do to manage.
> 
> I doubt he could just change one thing in his schedule and correct this situation. I also doubt that he could give up his hobby-- it seems like it is a major crutch for him right now.
> 
> He and OP need to do a survey of their entire lifestyle and rethink it because it is clearly not working. The husband's job is a huge factor in this.


You nailed it. This is exactly his take on the situation.


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## LongWalk

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> On a more positive note, I had several different strangers tell me how I look so much like Angelina Jolie. You bet it made my day!


Make sure your husband shoots the nude photos. I'll let you know how Jolie compares.


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## Blossom Leigh

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> You nailed it. This is exactly his take on the situation.


I have felt that a whole lifestyle overhaul would naturally fix some of these issues. How willing would he be to leave this job and return to your family?


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## Me'N'My'Girl

LongWalk said:


> Make sure your husband shoots the nude photos. I'll let you know how Jolie compares.


:smthumbup:


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## Me'N'My'Girl

Blossom Leigh said:


> I have felt that a whole lifestyle overhaul would naturally fix some of these issues. How willing would he be to leave this job and return to your family?


I don't think it is a realistic expectation for the time being. But he should be able to manage his time better.


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## Blossom Leigh

So you guys could agree on a short term goal (his better management) and a long term (possible move).


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## turnera

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> Oh, I can relate so well. I am trying to accept it as a flaw in him. I think I am trying to view him in a different way now. That he's not doing this to hurt me. It takes the pressure of a bit. I try to think of his otherwise good qualities.


That's not enough, not in the long run. 

You need to have more conversation about WHAT WILL HAPPEN when he does something. If you say he won't change, then talk about what the consequences will be for him doing the things that hurt you. 

Say he raises his voice. You sit him down and say 'if you say you can't change, you will continue to raise your voice, here's what's going to happen. Every time you raise your voice at me, I'm going to immediately end the conversation and leave the room. If you CONTINUE to raise your voice and ignore my need to leave the yelling, I will leave the house and go for a walk or a drive. If you continue to yell once I get back, I will go stay at a hotel for the night. If you still feel you 'have' to yell when I come home, I'll stay gone for 3 days. The next time, a week. The next time, a month. It's your choice on whether you 'can' change. But here's what's going to happen on MY end to protect myself from it.'

That puts the onus where it belongs - on him and his 'choice' not to change. Takes the emotion out of it. States your right to be respected and treated decently. Adjust that message to fit your own situation, but it shows clear expectations and clear consequences.


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## Anon1111

Me'N'My'Girl said:


> I don't think it is a realistic expectation for the time being. But he should be able to manage his time better.


I can tell you my wife and I went round and round in 2 yrs of marriage counseling with both of us saying that we would do better to manage our situation.

Nothing changed for the better until I bailed out on my very high stress job for something less demanding.

There are only so many hours in the day and you only have so much mental energy.

I resisted this for a very long time, but I believe that there is ultimately a lot of truth in the question: what is your real priority in life?

If it is truly your family and all of the signs point to the conclusion that your job is crowding them out, then you need to make the choice to choose them.

Personally, I wish I had come to this realization sooner, so I would not have inflicted as much damage on my marriage as I did.

I don't offer this as a means for you to put all of them blame on your husband, by the way. The two of you have built this lifestyle together.


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## Blossom Leigh

Anon1111 said:


> I can tell you my wife and I went round and round in 2 yrs of marriage counseling with both of us saying that we would do better to manage our situation.
> 
> Nothing changed for the better until I bailed out on my very high stress job for something less demanding.
> 
> There are only so many hours in the day and you only have so much mental energy.
> 
> I resisted this for a very long time, but I believe that there is ultimately a lot of truth in the question: what is your real priority in life?
> 
> If it is truly your family and all of the signs point to the conclusion that your job is crowding them out, then you need to make the choice to choose them.
> 
> Personally, I wish I had come to this realization sooner, so I would not have inflicted as much damage on my marriage as I did.
> 
> I don't offer this as a means for you to put all of them blame on your husband, by the way. The two of you have built this lifestyle together.


Very well said and is definitely the big elephant in the room.


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## farsidejunky

Checking in on you. How are things?


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## farsidejunky

I hope things worked out for you.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> That's not enough, not in the long run.
> 
> You need to have more conversation about WHAT WILL HAPPEN when he does something. If you say he won't change, then talk about what the consequences will be for him doing the things that hurt you.
> 
> Say he raises his voice. You sit him down and say 'if you say you can't change, you will continue to raise your voice, here's what's going to happen. Every time you raise your voice at me, I'm going to immediately end the conversation and leave the room. If you CONTINUE to raise your voice and ignore my need to leave the yelling, I will leave the house and go for a walk or a drive. If you continue to yell once I get back, I will go stay at a hotel for the night. If you still feel you 'have' to yell when I come home, I'll stay gone for 3 days. The next time, a week. The next time, a month. It's your choice on whether you 'can' change. But here's what's going to happen on MY end to protect myself from it.'
> 
> That puts the onus where it belongs - on him and his 'choice' not to change. Takes the emotion out of it. States your right to be respected and treated decently. Adjust that message to fit your own situation, but it shows clear expectations and clear consequences.


I really like this advice, turnera. So many different relationships can benefit from that kind of boundary setting. And it doesn't have to be from yelling. It could be from those "jokes" that some spouses tell but you know they are really putting you down, for instance. Or when they they give you the silent treatment. It doesn't always have to be divorce or nothing...


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## turnera

My IC told me that when my H gives me the silent treatment, to have fun with it. To take it as a pass to go do whatever I have been wanting to do, leave him alone, as a "not"-reward for his PA behavior. "Ok, so you're not talking to me, I get it. Well, I'm going to the mall with Nancy then, so you later!"

Just like you'd do with a kid by not rewarding him for bad behavior.


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## Tron

How goes it Me'N'My'Girl?


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