# Fatuous Love - Essential?



## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

I have been married less than a year, and 5 days ago, my wife quizzes me about whether I am in love with her, as opposed to loving her (and my first reaction was, whut?!). So it turns out she is not in love with me but loves me as a friend. I know we had both contributed to the lack of intimacy (I work relatively long hours and have a minor addiction to gaming; and our sleeping habits differ - she is a lark while I'm an owl). 

The thing is, she starts saying we didn't have fatuous love to begin with and that's a problem for her because without it there is no basis for longevity in marriage. She talks about soul connection and intimacy.

I eventually ask if there's a third party and she says yes but it's a guy way older that's in a relationship himself and she would never be with. She apologises for committing what was morally dubious to her and says she regrets it but blames me for allowing work to take over my life and allow her to ebb so low in her emotions that she had to resort to another guy. 

Finally she says she feels a void and needs time to find her self. She doesn't think we are in love, but more like brother-sister love, and that we have been deluding ourselves. She did say, as if to reassure me, that she has not made up her mind on this yet.

I love this girl and am giving her all the time and quiet she needs (she wants 2 months). Every day hurts now and I'm not sure what to expect after 2 months. I would be grateful for honest opinions on:

1. whether true love is sustainable without fatuous love. I will admit that I am not the most romantic guy in the world and I do have a tendency to sweep issues under the carpet. I rely on people to tell me if they're not happy with me, and if not I tend to go on the trust that everything is ok. And so far she has been the most accepting, and we haven't had more than 3 arguments in 11 months of marriage.

2. what the likelihood is that she will come to me and work things out like couples do? 

3. is there anything I can do show her i am sorry for neglecting her? I am concerned that she has said she needs her space and privacy, so if I try to break into that space, say cards or flowers, she might treat it as a further act of not respecting her.

4. should we go to a counsellor (after the 2 month period is up)? As opposed to trying to work things out together. I am not the most composed guy (certainly not in these circumstances), and I'm worried that for all my best intentions, I might blurt or say something stupid.

P.s. there was most definitely fatuous love from my side, and I love her to bits.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Sounds like she's got you wrapped around her fingers.

She's married to you, blames you for working hard and neglecting her , she gaslights you then she freely admits that she's in love with another guy who's involved with _another_ woman, and you think _you_ have a problem?

How is it that she's the one with the problem but you think you're the one who needs fixing?

She has the problem not you.
You cannot fix her.
You cannot " nice her " back into love with you, she pledged to be faithful to you , and was unfaithful.

You need to forget her and work on yourself man, she's walking all over you.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

I do work long hours and when I'm back home all tired, I get into my "zone" of couching before the telly, and if I can help it, the game console. So I was responsible for letting her think I didn't love her. 

It just hurts that she claims she doesn't feel fatuous love. 

We met on the streets and I sorta just knew she was the one. She was new in town and quite shy so she said I was probably the best she could get. OHHH.... I see now how she could have said what she said.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> She's married to you, blames you for working hard and neglecting her , she gaslights you then she freely admits that she's in love with another guy who's involved with _another_ woman, and you think _you_ have a problem?


She's not in love with him. She just communicated with him, and she says if anything (1) he encouraged her to talk to me; (2) he's irrelevant to her now (and she regrets breaching our trust to reach out to a third party); and (3) it's all because she needs to find her "self". 

I dunno. Is this something a woman could relate? I read up on "soul connection" - can't even begin to understand what it's about!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Is she willing to commit to working on the marriage with you?

She sounds like she putting all the blame on you.

Marriage takes work, not just on your part, both of you.
If you are willing to do the work, but she's not, then the chances of it working would be close to zero.

Are you certain she didn't have a sexual relationship with that man?
Sounds like she's still connected to him emotionally to me.

How were things before this third party?
How long was she friends with that man?


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

I agree that the type of love she says is missing is essential to a relationship's longevity. Sorry to say this, but even if she comes back, the passion she says is lacking will never be there. Are you prepared to accept this? 
As you are her security blanket, she's trying to keep you waiting in the wings. Is this something you are willing to do? She has been somewhat honest, because she did admit that her feelings were inadequate to sustain a marriage. I wouldn't dwell on the older married guy issue: her problem. 

My post is not very encouraging, but based on what you say, I feel that you will suffer if you stay in this relationship.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

I appreciate her honesty and would accept (though it would still hurt like crazy) her decision that she needs to let this go if she comes to that. On my part, I do feel I had contributed to this by not being emotionally there for her - it is a bitter bill to swallow because until Thursday I didn't see it coming; and where I had expected that we would work through this, my actions (of getting agitated, shouty and storming off - such is my regret that I was not more composed) had made it impossible for her to stay.

In the meantime, I can only assess where I stand with her. Do I love her? Am I in love with her? Would I wait for her? Would I still trust her again? Yes. It saddens me a lot that she found an emotional connection with another guy - but at least she didn't have a physical thing with him (she says and I believe her); I do not mind that she talked to someone who agreed with her - if I were in despair (as I am now), I would resort to it too.

Last night I found myself unable to think straight so I dropped her an e-mail to rationalise what what went wrong...and she replied that as much as she understood I was hurting, I had to respect her with her request for space and time, and that if I continued with doing this, she would only build more walls around her and then we wouldn't have a fair chance (as I had written in my e-mail that we should give us a fair chance). 

I guess there's no chance of flowers or a simple card on Christmas then...


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

explodingmachine said:


> I appreciate her honesty and would accept (though it would still hurt like crazy) her decision that she needs to let this go if she comes to that. On my part, I do feel I had contributed to this by not being emotionally there for you - it is a bitter bill to swallow because until Thursday I didn't see it coming; and where I had expected that we would work through this, my actions (of getting agitated, shouty and storming off - such is my regret that I was not more composed) had made it impossible for her to stay.
> 
> In the meantime, I can only assess where I stand with her. Do I love her? Am I in love with her? Would I wait for her? Would I still trust her again? Yes. It saddens me a lot that she found an emotional connection with another guy - but at least she didn't have a physical thing with him (she says and I believe her); I do not mind that she talked to someone who agreed with her - if I were in despair (as I am now), I would resort to it too.
> 
> ...


Is she still in contact with the other guy?
If they're still in contact , then she would always be confused.
She needs to cut him off first before both of you can work on the issues.
If she's will or has no contact with him, then maybe you have a chance.

If she's unwilling to cut him off and still maintains contact with him, calling him " friend" then you know where you stand.

Is he married?


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

Omego said:


> I agree that the type of love she says is missing is essential to a relationship's longevity. Sorry to say this, but even if she comes back, the passion she says is lacking will never be there. Are you prepared to accept this?


Could not fatuous love be incited again, or if for her it never existed, could it not be sparked for the first time? If she let me hold her, in a different way this time, because I dropped my long hours and gaming habits to touch her on emotional levels, it would be a different touch - everything starts from somewhere right? So yes, I am prepared to accept her as she is, because I want to work on the passion she says is lacking. I know like I sound like I'm in denial but it's not like I can do anything now besides rationalising and staying positive.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Is she still in contact with the other guy?
> If they're still in contact , then she would always be confused.
> She needs to cut him off first before both of you can work on the issues.


Yes she says she has cut him off. I gotta keep the faith man.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

explodingmachine said:


> Yes she says she has cut him off. I gotta keep the faith man.


Ok,
Agreed.
If she's cut him off, meaning absolutely no contact with him,
Then there might be a chance, she just needs to clear her head and work things out.
In that case don't pursue her, just give her time.

But please don't let it be indefinite!
In the meantime, work on yourself.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

explodingmachine said:


> I have been married less than a year, and 5 days ago, my wife quizzes me about whether I am in love with her, as opposed to loving her (and my first reaction was, whut?!). So it turns out she is not in love with me but loves me as a friend. I know we had both contributed to the lack of intimacy (I work relatively long hours and have a minor addiction to gaming; and our sleeping habits differ - she is a lark while I'm an owl).
> 
> The thing is, she starts saying we didn't have fatuous love to begin with and that's a problem for her because without it there is no basis for longevity in marriage. She talks about soul connection and intimacy.
> 
> ...


My head hurts.

How can she casually say such despicable and manipulative things to you?

And how do you accept them as possibly valid?

There are two ways people try to trick you, as a friend of mine once said:

*Puffs joint* "They either blind you with science, or baffle you with bullsh*t." *resumes puffing*.

Consider yourself Baffled. 'fatuous love' is not contained in any scientific journal I've ever browsed.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

Sandfly said:


> Consider yourself Baffled. 'fatuous love' is not contained in any scientific journal I've ever browsed.


Your post made me smile, weakly. I am with you, and yet this is the age of self-actualization. It sucks.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok,
> Agreed.
> If she's cut him off, meaning absolutely no contact with him,
> Then there might be a chance she just needs to clear her head and work things out.
> ...


Thanks for the encouragement. I will (work on myself). Already seeing more about myself that I could better, for myself first, and then for the good of her, if she still wants this.

And it won't be indefinite, though 2 months feels like an eternity now.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Why do you call romantic love _fatuous_?

_Fatuous: silly, foolish, stupid, inane, nonsensical, childish, puerile, infantile, idiotic, brainless, mindless, vacuous, imbecilic, asinine, witless, empty-headed, hare-brained;_

Most marriages need romance to keep the spark alive, and without it relationships can wither. It sounds as though there's been a complete disconnect between you - what with you working late, gaming late into the night, the lack of intimacy between you and her 'falling' for another man... 

How about you both going to MC?


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

I'm gonna go against the crowd on this one. You don't need "fatuous love" to have a long lasting marriage. Emotion comes and goes. For example, if you are angry at something, are you always going to be angry at that something? Or will your feelings towards it change as often as the weather does?

Your wife (from what I've read) doesn't feel "in love" or as my husband puts it, she doesn't feel the "neshwa"; the euphoric high of 'being in love'. Can you change that? Oh yeah. One of my favorite books to recommend is "The 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. Every person has a "language" that expresses without words ever being spoken that you care about another person. It sounds like this other guy is "speaking her language", so she feels more in love with him. If you know what her language is, you can start to show that you, not anyone else, can speak her language better.

Is this easy? Nope, especially if your love language isn't even remotely close to being the same (for example: mine is physical touch {without the sex} and my husband's is Acts of Service). By speaking the other's language, you create the "neshwa"...you create the passion.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

if you think your tv or game consoles are getting in the way of your marriage, get rid of them. it will only lead to more time spent doing crap that matters, like chatting with your spouse.

so far as fatuous love, no. its not necessary. people may disagree with me, but i didnt enjoy spending time with my wife when we married, she didnt enjoy spending time with me, and yet now we are head over heals for each other and we f%^k like bunnies. five years later.

by the way, that "fatuous love" only lasts a few years. at most, four. the dopamine receptors in your brain start to resist dopamine after that amount of time. 

its temporary. what i share with my wife lasts a hell of a lot longer, a complete trust that she has my best interests at heart. and i find her hot as hell...


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

explodingmachine said:


> Your post made me smile, weakly. I am with you, and yet this is the age of self-actualization. It sucks.


Its sucks very, very badly indeed. Agreed


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Akinaura said:


> I'm gonna go against the crowd on this one. You don't need "fatuous love" to have a long lasting marriage. Emotion comes and goes. For example, if you are angry at something, are you always going to be angry at that something? Or will your feelings towards it change as often as the weather does?
> 
> Your wife (from what I've read) doesn't feel "in love" or as my husband puts it, she doesn't feel the "neshwa"; the euphoric high of 'being in love'. Can you change that? Oh yeah. One of my favorite books to recommend is "The 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. Every person has a "language" that expresses without words ever being spoken that you care about another person. It sounds like this other guy is "speaking her language", so she feels more in love with him. If you know what her language is, you can start to show that you, not anyone else, can speak her language better.
> 
> Is this easy? Nope, especially if your love language isn't even remotely close to being the same (for example: mine is physical touch {without the sex} and my husband's is Acts of Service). By speaking the other's language, you create the "neshwa"...you create the passion.


Neshwa? I'm baffled.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Sandfly said:


> Neshwa? I'm baffled.


its an arabic word that basically means euphoria. it is often used to describe the way new couples feel.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> its an arabic word that basically means euphoria. it is often used to describe the way new couples feel.


So why not say 'euphoria'? Or avoid foreign words altogether.

'Bliss'.

You're not one of them coffee shop workers ('baristas') who I ask for a coffee and they ask me:

Latte? Dopio? Americano? Expresso?

Milky, double, instant, short black - in English.

Sorry, but it gets on my Cycki, and makes my Dupa bleed Bardzo Mocno.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Sandfly said:


> So why not say 'euphoria'? Or avoid foreign words altogether.
> 
> 'Bliss'.
> 
> ...


lol, nope, im an infantryman who speaks multiple languages. 
sometimes, i realize that english has its limitations. 
we only have one word for love. 
unconditional love, love between a man and woman, love that is felt in the beggining of a relationship, brotherly love(which shows family pride) love between a parent and his child(which shows more pride) etc, etc...

we only have one word for all of it. it doesnt quite get the meaning across.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> lol, nope, im an infantryman who speaks multiple languages.
> sometimes, i realize that english has its limitations.
> we only have one word for love.
> unconditional love, love between a man and woman, love that is felt in the beggining of a relationship, brotherly love(which shows family pride) love between a parent and his child(which shows more pride) etc, etc...
> ...


Cool.

I'm just ranting that imported words often replace good native words, and reinforce class and cultural barriers. For example, they use 'weltanschauung' in sociology when we already have the word 'world-view' (literal translation anyway). They use that word to stop the University funding bodies from reading their theses and being able to decide whether to withdraw funding.

Maybe neshwa fills a real gap then...

Some languages don't even have a word for love you know.... they use a word like 'kindness' instead... 

It surprises me how many words for vagina and penis there is in Slavic languages... what does it mean???


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> Most marriages need romance to keep the spark alive, and without it relationships can wither. It sounds as though there's been a complete disconnect between you - what with you working late, gaming late into the night, the lack of intimacy between you and her 'falling' for another man... How about you both going to MC?


I was working late (sometimes as late as 3 in the morning) or if I wasn't working late, I have to admit we lapsed into a daily routine of dining at home, watching the telly and reading a book in bed. We would only have sex on the weekends and in the last 3 months, none at all. I think a large part of it was due to the exhaustion I felt, it had nothing to do with not wanting to have sex. 

And I know this sounds so stupid now, but I honestly thought to myself, our love transcended physical needs and what with have is an emotional connection. I now realise it was not mutual. 

Yeah I have a lot of regrets now about what could have been done better. 

I have asked that we go to MC after her time out is over - the bright side is that she agreed. I have to hold on hope.

Guys, I took a lot of things for granted. Not being the most expressive persons (both of us), I made a lot of assumptions about what we had. I genuinely thought we thrived well on personalities - it's not like we didn't have topics to discuss in common or laugh at each other's POVs. But factually I left her emotionally - I thought we had time after my work assignments were over this year, and we would rekindle the sparks. I knew and I did nothing to fight for her. On that I will do everything it takes to never make her feel this way again. At the same time, I am willing myself to let her go if that's what she feels she wants.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> so far as fatuous love, no. its not necessary. people may disagree with me, but i didnt enjoy spending time with my wife when we married, she didnt enjoy spending time with me, and yet now we are head over heals for each other and we f%^k like bunnies. five years later.


That's what I think too. In my turmoiled mind, I have rationalised that fatuous love is ultimately formulaic - you must have physical attraction; an intellection engagement; and a rendezvous. The last part is what makes the feeling of romance. You create romance by engaging your lover not just physically but emotionally (by that, women mean the listening, the understanding and the appreciation?).

I very much want to build on what we have instead of looking back. Your picture of your marriage is so enviable, and it just makes me want mine to get there so much more.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

Akinaura said:


> I'm gonna go against the crowd on this one. ....If you know what her language is, you can start to show that you, not anyone else, can speak her language better.


Thank you for that Akinaura. I will get that book right away. I have to stay strong now cuz every waking moment is waves of pain flooring me with the knowledge that I allowed work and personal belief (that our love was strong) to take over our marriage.


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## ElizabethBrown (Dec 10, 2013)

Hi, Fatuous is an adjective that refers to someone foolish or silly especially in a self-satisfied way. In a sentence, it can be used as 'I don't like the young man because he yammered in a fatuous way. The model consists of three componenets: intimacy, passion and commitment. Intimacy defined as the emotional connection based primarily on the sharing of intense and personal information and the capabilities of both parties mutual acceptance. Passion defined as the motivational drive for love including sexual attraction and the desire for sexual intimacy; passion can induce appeal and attraction but is also easily distinguished. Lastly, commitment is the thoughtful and decisive part of love, involving first deciding one is "in love" and the development over time into a lasting commitment to the relationship. So I think this is important as well. 

Have a nice day


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## Mistyfied (Sep 27, 2013)

I can't say the same thing is going on with your wife as for me but, the only time I waved another guy in my husband's face (and that was the last resort after other unfruitful efforts), it was my way of trying to make him want to fight for me (though I never claimed to love the other guy and it wasn't one there was any actual opportunity with). I was also feeling neglected and longing for that intimate connection and sharing (conversational, emotional). What I really needed from him was something significant to show he could understand my needs (and not flowers for me). I don't need euphoric romantic love long term but I do need emotional intimacy. I simply offer this for your consideration though it may have no relevance to your situation.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

explodingmachine said:


> I was working late (sometimes as late as 3 in the morning) or if I wasn't working late, I have to admit we lapsed into a daily routine of dining at home, watching the telly and reading a book in bed. We would only have sex on the weekends and in the last 3 months, none at all. I think a large part of it was due to the exhaustion I felt, it had nothing to do with not wanting to have sex.
> 
> And I know this sounds so stupid now, but I honestly thought to myself, our love transcended physical needs and what with have is an emotional connection. I now realise it was not mutual.
> 
> ...



Don't be too hard on yourself,
We all make mistakes. The positive i see in your situation is that both of you have admitted and taken responsibility for your part in this unfortunate series of events.

Seems that you love her and you are willing to do the necessary work to fix things. I assume based on what you said, that she too is willing.
Another book that is highly recommended around here is 
" His Needs ,Her Needs ." ( Can't remember the author right now.)
But it can help you both understand each other some more , and improve communication.

Marriage is work , but it's a labour of love . It's fun.

Never stop romancing your wife , and even if you're too tired to make love , hold her and tell her that you love her.
She needs to feel loved.
Don't just assume that she'll understand , help her to understand.

I think she'll come back, so be prepared to show her that you're a new , changed man.

Best wishes.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

explodingmachine said:


> I was working late (sometimes as late as 3 in the morning) or if I wasn't working late, I have to admit we lapsed into a daily routine of dining at home, watching the telly and reading a book in bed. We would only have sex on the weekends and in the last 3 months, none at all. I think a large part of it was due to the exhaustion I felt, it had nothing to do with not wanting to have sex.
> 
> And I know this sounds so stupid now, but I honestly thought to myself, our love transcended physical needs and what with have is an emotional connection. I now realise it was not mutual.
> 
> ...



We all make mistakes, OP, and we can all get a little too comfortable in relationships. Rather than talking to you about things, your W chose to look outside the marriage, so she has also played her part here, too...

Emotional and physical intimacy is the glue that keeps a relationship together, and I hope you manage to get things sorted out.

Another poster mentioned the 5 Love Languages book. Here's the Love Language test to get you started:- http://www.5lovelanguages.com/

Another site that I found useful was Marriage Builders. Some very useful articles in there:- http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Really sorry to read your post.

When you first met, what was the relationship like ? Lots of sex, kisses, hugging ? If this did not exist from the start then why not? Was/is she an expressively emotional person? If she started out like this and it dwindled, then you know that there was this buzz and it kind of died down with everyday life and mistakes - and you know what you have to work on - less gaming, more attention to wife, more help in the house, more romantic dates and actions, and yes, plenty of sex (doesn't have to be long marathon sessions but frequently). This means that she had some form of "infatuation" with the relationship to start with and you can get it back. To say that she never loved you in this way might just be her rewriting history to suit how she is feeling now. You need to be all over this like a rash - do not let it go until you both know if she once had this feeling and it has been eroded at or it never really existed (you should know the answer to this because you were there at the start).

Secondly, I agree with what the others are saying - this other man needs to be as far from her as possible in order for her to "clear her head and start thinking properly". No contact is only the start of it, she needs to be as far away from him as possible. Is this possible ? You need to make this a condition of the "deal" you have. This is not a polite request but an absolutely essential step to progressing forward.

Next, distance does not make the heart grow fonder in this case. What are the exact terms of these 2 months? Are you both together in the same house? What does give her space/time mean? Are you still talking to each other? You need to have at least some time a week together even if it is just for a date together. Else she cannot see the new you.

And finally, this is not just about what you have done wrong or failed to do. A lot of this is on her too. You have been working hard and yes you have some bad habits, but she committed to this marriage too and she needed to have dealt with this in a more mature and loving way. She also contributed to the dwindling of the "fatuous" nature of your love and relationship. She also needs to be reminded that fatuation does not last but real love and being in love based on mutual attraction and respect does. There is a lot of literature you should be reading as per this board and I am sure that you will get down to it. However, be wary about her disrespecting you or treating you like a doormat. There is a fine line between this and trying to work things out.

I wish you the best of luck and a speedy road to recovery and happiness.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Mistyfied said:


> I can't say the same thing is going on with your wife as for me but, the only time I waved another guy in my husband's face (and that was the last resort after other unfruitful efforts), it was my way of trying to make him want to fight for me (though I never claimed to love the other guy and it wasn't one there was any actual opportunity with). I was also feeling neglected and longing for that intimate connection and sharing (conversational, emotional). What I really needed from him was something significant to show he could understand my needs (and not flowers for me). I don't need euphoric romantic love long term but I do need emotional intimacy. I simply offer this for your consideration though it may have no relevance to your situation.


Good comment, but you made the classic mistake of thinking that he could read your mind. He probably took your weird behaviour to mean you were unstable. 

Don't ask directly to a guy and you don't get, coz they're not that bright to anticipate someone else's inner turmoils.


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## Mistyfied (Sep 27, 2013)

Sandfly said:


> Good comment, but you made the classic mistake of thinking that he could read your mind. He probably took your weird behaviour to mean you were unstable.
> 
> Don't ask directly to a guy and you don't get, coz they're not that bright to anticipate someone else's inner turmoils.


Like I said, I'd tried everything. Being direct and then downright blunt achieved nothing. I wanted him to think, "Yikes, better do something".


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Mistyfied said:


> Like I said, I'd tried everything. Being direct and then downright blunt achieved nothing. I wanted him to think, "Yikes, better do something".


I understand. You only did what is natural to many people, and it didn't work. You found direct made him unhappy, then you found blunt got him on the defensive, and then hinting didn't work, and then waving a big red banner didn't work after that.

I want to ask this.

Often, a woman will pretend to like things, or overlook annoying habits etc because her goal is to get to the marriage bit, and she is afraid if she reveals all her cards before marriage, then the marriage won't happen.

Did you do this? Mom's advice, right?

Once she gets married, well "then he's committed isn't he? he has to now adjust to me and what I really want."

Trouble is, we're talking about a simple animal here. While he was free to roam the streets, you gave him (assumption) tasty biscuits and kind words to encourage him to visit your garden (sorry)

Now that he's tied up in the backyard, it turns out that he has to do more than wag his tail to get the biscuits.

This is very confusing for a simple animal. He wonders "when did this happen? I came here for the biscuits and now I don't get biscuits and she shouts at me. She never used to shout at me. She's withholding biscuits and acting weird. Was she always weird and I never noticed? What have I bought into here?"

So now the solution. Starting with the points-of-view: Because in a very small sense, the nicey-nice "everything you do is wonderful, oh love of my life BTW let's get married" was a deception, because you didn't reveal your true needs before he committed, out of fear that he wouldn't.

In lady parlance this is called "No worries, I can change him".

In bloke speak this is called "changing the contract after you've signed".

You could renegotiate the contract, that's fine, but you can't just change it unilaterally and expect the other party to accept it.
So now we have resistance.

What would you do with the theoretical dog tied up in the garden to get him to really change?

Give him back his biscuits, loosen the leash and at the same time, find out 'how my dog thinks' and re-train him?

I don't know. I don't know squat about dogs, and fortunately for me, women are more like cats, you just have to ignore them and pet them occasionally and throw them some meat (sorry) for them to keep turning up and purring. Eventually they will move into your house and watch telly with you.

Just some ideas, I'm sure there's nothing you can't fix, maybe someone else can advise better, but maybe you can see how your animal is thinking.


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## Mistyfied (Sep 27, 2013)

Sandfly said:


> I understand. You only did what is natural to many people, and it didn't work. You found direct made him unhappy, then you found blunt got him on the defensive, and then hinting didn't work, and then waving a big red banner didn't work after that.
> 
> I want to ask this.
> 
> ...


No, I wanted what I married. I still want what I married. If he didn't have the goods then, I wouldn't have married him. I was far from desperate. He knew what he was getting when he married me. I hid nothing. I changed nothing. He's the one that has done what you described. My mother never gave me any advice other than don't go to sleep on an argument (which he did last night).

As for the biscuits, sometimes the dog is just lazy or biscuits aren't that big a priority for him. Or he hasn't got good table manners. That's when you start pointing out how other dogs like biscuits so maybe someone else will appreciate what you're serving.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Mistyfied said:


> No, I wanted what I married. I still want what I married. If he didn't have the goods then, I wouldn't have married him. I was far from desperate. He knew what he was getting when he married me. I hid nothing. I changed nothing. He's the one that has done what you described. My mother never gave me any advice other than don't go to sleep on an argument (which he did last night).
> 
> As for the biscuits, sometimes the dog is just lazy or biscuits aren't that big a priority for him. Or he hasn't got good table manners. That's when you start pointing out how other dogs like biscuits so maybe someone else will appreciate what you're serving.


I see, yes, this is also possible, that the other person becomes lazy. 

But trust me when I say that men are very possessive and offering biscuits to other dogs, or saying you intend to, will backfire spectacularly.

Me personally, I would go into a rage!

I know that's not fair at all.

I have one final suggestion, and then I'll keep quiet.

Men's testosterone drops off after 30, and their energy and sexdrive goes with it. However it has been shown strength excercises can bring it back and maintain it, coupled with a light cardio - cycling is easiest on the knees, well into later years.
It won't be easy to get him to do some strength training, but if the cause is a loss of testosterone, then this would be the best solution.

I say this, because an old neighbour of mine when I met him seemed pale and weak and tired all the time. His wife was giving off the signals, a little bit (subconsciously).
His domineering and more attractive wife forced him onto the bike and the weights so that she could get pregnant.

A side effect was he became a new man again, or rather, youthfulness and drive came back.

Now they seem much more equal, and he is happier at not being dominated; meanwhile they have a baby boy, born in October. She is no longer giving off any (subconscious) signals that she is looking elsewhere, and I'm very happy for them both.

Bye!


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## Mistyfied (Sep 27, 2013)

Sandfly said:


> I see, yes, this is also possible, that the other person becomes lazy.
> 
> But trust me when I say that men are very possessive and offering biscuits to other dogs, or saying you intend to, will backfire spectacularly.
> 
> ...


An excellent suggestion but I can confirm he has had his testosterone tested and it is good. 

I have never offered biscuits to other dogs or ever had the intention to. It wasn't presented like that. 

The next book on my reading list is 'the emotionally unavailable man'. A state he was not in when we got married.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Mistyfied said:


> An excellent suggestion but I can confirm he has had his testosterone tested and it is good.
> 
> I have never offered biscuits to other dogs or ever had the intention to. It wasn't presented like that.
> 
> The next book on my reading list is 'the emotionally unavailable man'. A state he was not in when we got married.


Good idea. Once you understand something, you can change it.

Good luck!


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## deborahtroyer (Dec 17, 2013)

I agree that the type of love she says is missing is essential to a relationship's longevity.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

explodingmachine, you may want to post your story over at the NMMNG forum. They can be brutal over there, but sometimes a little brutality can spark the change you need to get on a healthier path.

Try to use the two months apart as a time to focus on figuring out what kind of marriage you want, and what you expect from your wife and yourself. 

Hold yourself to your expectations. Listen to what she says about your expectations of her. 

Consider asking her what her expectations of both of you are. At the end of two months, you should both have a clearer vision of what you want to do.

As much pain as you are in, it does sound like you are willing to let go of the marriage if need be. That is very good. Win/win or no deal is very healthy.

I agree with the posters who say that feelings come and go in a relationship. But the respect must always be there. 

Okay, going to sound preachy and judgmental . . . Your girlfriend should feel shame for going to the other guy. She should outright apologize to you and ask your forgiveness. You cannot both commit to the marriage if she is holding the option of going elsewhere to have her emotional needs met.

You need to understand why she did it, and make it easy to come to you in the future, if you two decide to continue the marriage. 

Drop the gaming, at least for a while. Focus on things that will build the marriage, especially the emotional connection between the two of you. Lots of talking and listening to her feelings, but making it clear to her you are not going to tolerate her disrespecting you. 

It is funny, but some of us women need very clear boundaries from our man. It makes us respect him more and ultimately love him more. I don't think I could love my dh if I did not feel he had any limits. Honestly, his being stricter could probably improve our marriage, and it is already pretty good.

You know, I usually take the side of the woman, but I was pretty irritated with your wife when I read your post. I know, she likely does not know that she is taking you for granted (and you have probably done the same to her). And, honestly, you should have gotten mad when she told you some of this stuff. She should have felt some wrath when she admitted the attempted EA and then tried to blame you for it. You have to have some self-respect, em.

And that is where NMMNG comes in. Go over to that site and tell your tale. Those guys will be all over you and her. You do not have to be as tough on her as they will be, but you will be headed in the right direction.

Your marriage can get back on track, but you are going to have to change.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

manfromlamancha said:


> When you first met, what was the relationship like ? Lots of sex, kisses, hugging ?


Yes. Sex everytime we met. Kisses, hugs, loads. We started off without thinking about whether it was going to last. It was all about being in the moment. I am hoping that she will remember it all, and this is just a self-preservation mechanism to justify her lack. 

jld - what's NMMNG? I think the comments here have been positive (in the sense of objectivity) and they are all helping me to see the different perspectives. Man I tell you, I had no idea marriages were this difficult to manage. Weak smile.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NMMMNG is No More Mr. Nice Guy. They have a forum where they really beat on you, lol, but you end up seeing why they do it.

I think once you go there, you will get some tips to get your marriage back on track quick like. 

Your problems really don't sound that bad. Just firm up your backbone and your wife will rediscover her love for you.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

If the OP's W is already feeling neglected (the OP working late, gaming until late into the night and no emotional / physical intimacy), I'm not sure that some of the NMMNG tactics are going to work - in fact they could seriously backfire.

The OP and his W have both made mistakes in not communicating and focusing on their relationship, and it is this that needs some work, IMO.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

Mistyfied said:


> I can't say the same thing is going on with your wife as for me but, the only time I waved another guy in my husband's face (and that was the last resort after other unfruitful efforts), it was my way of trying to make him want to fight for me (though I never claimed to love the other guy and it wasn't one there was any actual opportunity with). I was also feeling neglected and longing for that intimate connection and sharing (conversational, emotional). What I really needed from him was something significant to show he could understand my needs (and not flowers for me). I don't need euphoric romantic love long term but I do need emotional intimacy. I simply offer this for your consideration though it may have no relevance to your situation.


This helped. I'm beginning to see all the little things she did short of shouting out loud and in my face. I kinda wish she did shout in my face... Also, that definition of emotional intimacy definitely seems workable, if she would come back to me.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

jld said:


> NMMMNG is No More Mr. Nice Guy. They have a forum where they really beat on you, lol, but you end up seeing why they do it....


That sounds...actually daunting. Grin.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> Originally by Cosmos
> If the OP's W is already feeling neglected (the OP working late, gaming until late into the night and no emotional / physical intimacy), I'm not sure that some of the NMMNG tactics are going to work - in fact they could seriously backfire.
> 
> The OP and his W have both made mistakes in not communicating and focusing on their relationship, and it is this that needs some work, IMO.





> Sandfly: The OP is the woman and she's talking about her husband. Maybe NMMNG will help, but... I dunno, is it for women?


The OP is the husband...:scratchhead:


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

explodingmachine said:


> This helped. I'm beginning to see all the little things she did short of shouting out loud and in my face. I kinda wish she did shout in my face... Also, that definition of emotional intimacy definitely seems workable, if she would come back to me.


You don't have respect. They come back to you when you've gone elsewhere or are on the way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> If the OP's W is already feeling neglected (the OP working late, gaming until late into the night and no emotional / physical intimacy), I'm not sure that some of the NMMNG tactics are going to work - in fact they could seriously backfire.
> 
> The OP and his W have both made mistakes in not communicating and focusing on their relationship, and it is this that needs some work, IMO.


I agree that they need to communicate and make intimacy a priority. That Marriage Builders site you linked to would probably be a great resource for them.

What NMMNG tactics do you think would backfire on them?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

jld said:


> I agree that they need to communicate and make intimacy a priority. That Marriage Builders site you linked to would probably be a great resource for them.
> 
> What NMMNG tactics do you think would backfire on them?


Sorry, I think I'm confusing NMMNG with MMSLP.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

manfromlamancha said:


> Next, distance does not make the heart grow fonder in this case. What are the exact terms of these 2 months? Are you both together in the same house? What does give her space/time mean? Are you still talking to each other? You need to have at least some time a week together even if it is just for a date together. Else she cannot see the new you.


Hi - the terms of these 2 months are that we should be physically apart, so she moved back to her folks; and I remain in an empty house. She has come back 3 times while I'm at work to clear our wardrobe of her dresses and work stuff (she works as a dyslexia teacher). She will not agree to meet or even communicate at all during this time; and she says it's because she needs privacy and space to find her "self". Following some advice on this forum, I have agreed to it on condition that she severs all communication with *that* guy. 

I succumbed on Sunday and sent her a few text messages and dropped her an e-mail - about keeping the faith and staying strong in us. She replied the same night to request that I keep my word about respecting her privacy, and that if I couldn't do that, I prejudice any fair chance of reconciliation between us. She added that when we meet again, it would be before a marriage counsellor and there she would respect and listen to what I have to say. She sounded upset still but less angry. It is giving me hope for what's worth but I am only functioning at the moment.

I have to stay positive - so I've made appointments with 3 MCs for individual counselling. The first was yesterday, and if I'm honest, it felt underwhelming. I know there is too much that's happened that I could relate to anyone within 1.5 hours, but the MC seemed only prepared to "hold the ring", instead of give me the hard truths and brutal advice I'm seeking. (I have requested for female MCs because when we do get back in February next year, I think that's what she'd want.)

_What should I be expecting out of MC??_

At this point, I'm just grasping at straws to save the marriage. I've got 5 Languages of Love, did the online test, and am praying again (we do not go to church and our Christian faith has never been strong).


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

Sandfly said:


> *snip*


I appreciated the discussion of men/women and (dog) biscuits between Sandfly and Mistyfied. I see both sides. I feel, like Sandfly, that men are not constituted to understand a woman's needs short of them giving it straight up; but I see now, all the little things she's thrown my way to show me she needs me...like styling her hair and dressing up for a routine dinner and cuddling up to me while I'm on the blackberry...and me totally missing the signs, all because I thought we had it all going before marriage and marriage is status quo... ;(


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i dont get it... why the hell does she want to break all contact for two months, and emphasize her privacy?

anyone else find this fishy?

personally, i would be suspicious as hell. time away is one thing, but total darkness only makes sense if she is trying to send you the message that she can live without you, so you better get your **** together. but it seems to me like you are trying to accommodate her wishes, so i dont see the latter making any sense.

im trying to logically come up with a reason why she would want complete separation, and the only thing i can come up with is that she wants the chance to do something that she doesnt want you to ever know about.

if i were you, i would be HIGHLY suspicious.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> i dont get it... why the hell does she want to break all contact for two months, and emphasize her privacy?
> 
> anyone else find this fishy?


I do think she had been emotionally detached from me, and emotionally attached to *that* other guy for too long, so that under *his* influence, she has lost quite a bit of faith in our relationship. I think 2 months is a period of time she needs to find her self and cool down, get a clarity and perspective that is hers. She did apologise for having sunk so low as to communicate with another guy, and said herself that it was morally dubious; and she also said she wouldn't be in contact with him anymore... (The guy is half the world away and is her parents' age so it is not a physical thing, she said as much.)

As a guy, I understand what a time out means - I've done this before in other relationships. It usually signals the end; but at the same time, it also means taking a break from societal expectations so that the mind is clearer. 

At this point, I have nothing except my faith in our marriage to go on...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

explodingmachine said:


> As a guy, I understand what a time out means - I've done this before in other relationships. It usually signals the end; but at the same time, it also means *taking a break from societal expectations* so that the mind is clearer.


What does that mean?

I understand that you at least communicated that she would cut off contact with this other guy. What other agreements did the two of you reach regarding appropriate conduct and joint responsibilities during the separation?

Use this time to work on yourself and figure out what you want in your marriage and your life.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> What does that mean?
> 
> I understand that you at least communicated that she would cut off contact with this other guy. What other agreements did the two of you reach regarding appropriate conduct and joint responsibilities during the separation?
> 
> Use this time to work on yourself and figure out what you want in your marriage and your life.


It basically means not staying together because that might be what other people expect us to. 

There were no other agreements. She wouldn't even let me meet her outside her folks' place. When I sent her text messages and an e-mail, she replied to respect her privacy. 

I will.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Use this time to work on yourself and figure out what you want in your marriage and your life.


+1

what your wife is doing would not be acceptable to me... 
she is basically shutting you off, going dark, and letting you mull over the possibility that you will no longer have a wife whenever she gets around to her decision. and she will make that decision without you.

so, i would just work on me if i were in your shoes right now. considering what she has already decided to do, i wouldnt be holding my breath.

to me this is a pretty ****ty kind of abandonment. leaving you in the dark with your anxiety and worries, especially when you know that she has an interest in another man...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

explodingmachine said:


> I do think she had been emotionally detached from me, and emotionally attached to *that* other guy for too long, so that under *his* influence, she has lost quite a bit of faith in our relationship.


You nailed it. It's about "time" and "priority". For her to carry on the affair, she is putting more interest and time on it. It's also gaining a higher priority than you. All the old stuff you did with her is losing credit and weight. So you can cry about it all you want it won't help. Then you have the dopamine and seretonin generation that the secret of the affair provides and now we've created a world where crap is like ice cream and doesn't stink.



explodingmachine said:


> I think 2 months is a period of time she needs to find her self and cool down, get a clarity and perspective that is hers. She did apologise for having sunk so low as to communicate with another guy, and said herself that it was morally dubious; and she also said she wouldn't be in contact with him anymore... (The guy is half the world away and is her parents' age so it is not a physical thing, she said as much.)


How is she going to have the wretched and pain feelings required to completely throw that fantasy away and to realize it was never worth putting her primary relationship on the line for?




explodingmachine said:


> As a guy, I understand what a time out means - I've done this before in other relationships. It usually signals the end; but at the same time, it also means taking a break from societal expectations so that the mind is clearer.
> 
> At this point, I have nothing except my faith in our marriage to go on...


Have faith in yourself as well. You will be OK either way. Athol Kay MAP, outside charm with ladies and females, grow your opportunities and finances outside of her, take care of yourself all those things.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

How are things going, explodingmachine?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

She is only saying these things because she is actively involved in an affair. So that is why her feelings about your (you and her) love connection is discounting your relationship...it makes her feel more justified in cheating on you.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

explodingmachine said:


> I succumbed on Sunday and sent her a few text messages and dropped her an e-mail - about keeping the faith and staying strong in us. * She replied the same night to request that I keep my word about respecting her privacy, and that if I couldn't do that, I prejudice any fair chance of reconciliation between us. *She added that when we meet again, it would be before a marriage counsellor and there she would respect and listen to what I have to say.





explodingmachine said:


> _What should I be expecting out of MC??_


Nothing as long as she is involved in an affair.

Stop telling her you will move the moon and back for her and stand your ground. *"I will not live in an open marriage."*



As'laDain said:


> i dont get it... * why the hell does she want to break all contact for two months, and emphasize her privacy?*


Because she wants more space to cheat.

It's classic. And totally unoriginal.


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

How do you know this guy is so far away? Anyone can be anywhere online. How do you know how old he is, and why does that matter?

I think she is using this separation ploy so she can be in touch with this other guy without you breathing down her neck. 

I suggest you pull up her text records and do some investigating. Women do not just pull this crap unless they are test driving another man IMO. 

Good luck. You're gonna need it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Because she wants more space to cheat.
> 
> It's classic. And totally unoriginal.


+1
my point exactly.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

explodingmachine said:


> At this point, I have nothing except my faith in our marriage to go on...


you have more than that. you have yourself.

read the book "no more mr nice guy"

i didnt realize it at the time, but i started making the same kind of changes when i decided to join the army that the author advocates in the book.

it will help you build yourself up. 



you deserve a HELL of a lot better than the way your wife is treating you. it is not normal, you didnt do anything to deserve a total shut out. she is being unreasonable.

you have a right to be important in your marriage. your opinions and feelings SHOULD matter. 

thats why i think you need to work on yourself if your wife really wants to abandon you for two months. build up your strength or be willing to be ignored.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

jld said:


> How are things going, explodingmachine?


Hi guys - things are, well, I've since gone to a second MC for individual counseling. (The first MC really didn't make me feel like she bothered.) This second MC made me feel a lot better and was both understanding and hard on me. Also, she asked if she could call my wife (because like many of you, she didn't think it was healthy we stayed apart for 2 months). Which I said ok if my wife would be willing to speak to her. That was 2 nights ago, I texted R (my wife) and she said yeah ok, been meaning to find a MC before the joint counseling. I sent a text message to the MC yesterday but later I found out she hadn't made the call to R yet because she had not received my message (she left her phone at home!!!). 

As much as I want to, I'm not reading too much into this. I've typed out all our text messages on this (mainly on the night she walked out). I'd like to think she's calmer now, and that has to be a good thing for us. On my part, I'm breaking down less, sleeping more than 4 hours a day, and reading more. 

I'm accepting that even though she should not have abandoned me like this (for all my mistakes we could have worked it through together), and even though she had an EA (is that right?) with another guy, I won't even look back if we get back together. I'm also accepting that if this is the end, I need to become a better man for myself. 

So things are, well, better than one week ago, when I got totally floored by an event I did not see coming.

I thank you all for being here for me. I wish she was here for me.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Sorry a little late to this thread....



explodingmachine said:


> *I do work long hours and when I'm back home all tired, I get into my "zone" of couching before the telly, and if I can help it, the game console. So I was responsible for letting her think I didn't love her.
> 
> It just hurts that she claims she doesn't feel fatuous love.
> 
> We met on the streets and I sorta just knew she was the one. She was new in town and quite shy so she said I was probably the best she could get. OHHH.... I see now how she could have said what she said*.


I didn't know what Fatuous Love meant exactly -new word for me.. so I looked it up... found a whole list of varies levels to loving here .. Triangular theory of love - Wikipedia

*Fatuous love* can be exemplified by a whirlwind courtship and marriage - "fatuous in the sense that a commitment is made on the basis of passion without the stabilizing influence of intimate involvement."










Her insisting on 2 months apart.. the way she is handling this... It just seems she has stepped out ... sounds in the beginning she wanted MORE of your time, only to do THIS....is it too late...if she is still attached to this other man, it may be.... it is in the exact opposite direction of what she originally wanted from you... a step out the door and into her new life... 

It almost sounds she has made up her mind ...without showing more warming behavior to you... but "just respect my privacy" being thrown back at you.... sad to say... it could have been worked out possibly if the communication was going forth early on...

in your opening post you said this >>


explodingmachine said:


> I will admit that I am* not the most romantic guy in the world *and *I do have a tendency to sweep issues under the carpet. I rely on people to tell me if they're not happy with me, and if not I tend to go on the trust that everything is ok. *And so far she has been the most accepting, and we haven't had more than 3 arguments in 11 months of marriage.





> *I was working late (sometimes as late as 3 in the morning) or if I wasn't working late, I have to admit we lapsed into a daily routine of dining at home, watching the telly and reading a book in bed. We would only have sex on the weekends and in the last 3 months, none at all. I think a large part of it was due to the exhaustion I felt, it had nothing to do with not wanting to have sex. *
> 
> And I know this sounds so stupid now, but I honestly thought to myself, our love transcended physical needs and what with have is an emotional connection. I now realise it was not mutual.
> 
> ...


Reading over what happened here, it is so obvious to me HOW this happened....the fact you only had 3 arguments in 11 months -just means she was being very passive to her needs and wants..which allowed her to build resentment towards you... never a good thing..

I left this on another thread where the wife just checked out - the husband wasn't the expressing type, he did his thing, she grew resentful and ended up a Walk away... he didn't know what hit him...



> If someone is not happy, for whatever reason (even if she is too emotional)... if they feel their spouse is utterly oblivious to this - his attitude ..."what is wrong with her, we have a good marriage". All this will scream ...."he just does not get me!!...and there is nothing I can do....this is who he is".......It would zap something deep inside of such women...feeling the marriage has no hope...
> 
> How important, when the laughter stops in the home, the smiles, the
> 
> ...





> *ElizabethBrown said:* The model consists of three componenets:* intimacy, passion and commitment.*
> 
> *Intimacy defined* as the emotional connection based primarily on the sharing of intense and personal information and the capabilities of both parties mutual acceptance.
> 
> ...


I think we all (meaning women) deeply desire & strive for Intimacy, Passion and commitment.. the Consummate Love... all of the others are a little short on something, which leaves breaks in the relationship, and if one gets a little too close to someone else, the dopamine can kick in... 

I am one who doesn't believe our marriages ever had to get dry, if we revive it -lavishing those love languages on each other, doing little things, showing appreciation, validation, not allowing out time at home -when you have moments to share with her, but choose video games, the tv, a book while she was crying inside... she SHOULD have caused a fuss about this... some fights, to alert you to how she was feeling inside, in this -she was wrong... the intimacy slowly died in your relationship... 



> *explodingmachine said:* *I'm also accepting that if this is the end, I need to become a better man for myself. *


 It sounds with your purchase of books, and resolve, you are preparing yourself to be that better Man... I suggest one more book...I think it's the best for getting detailed about Emotional needs.. with each 10 explained...it gives real life examples to how just a small crack in these -can allow an opening for another person to enter the relationship... we really need to guard our Love... it's that important...

His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage  ~ these are the Core Emotional Needs addressed in that book....



> 10 Emotional needs:
> 
> 
> 1. *Admiration*
> ...


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

SimplyAmorous - thank you for your post, every word you say is true of what's happened in our marriage and realizing this only after she's left me, and that this could be over, is tearing me apart. Can you help me by analyzing further a little?

What can I do to abate her resentment over the lack of consummate love? I love her even now, don't blame her for getting attached to another man (after all it was my neglect in the first place that over time pushed her to him), and would be 100% willing to start off afresh. Also, she said she's not talking to him anymore (he is from another end of the world) and if anything, she stressed that it was about her lack in self, and not anybody else.

I've been reading these books and taking time out to think through all that's happened. I feel strongly that if she would be willing to give "us" a shot, we would make it into the next stage of a beautiful, beautiful marriage. I have even spoken to my senior partner about resigning the job at the end of the year. I am doing all it takes...It is hurting a lot that she won't even talk/meet me, and my head is telling me the worst...

What does it mean when she says that when we meet, it will be before a marriage counsellor where I will have a fair chance to explain myself? Please feel free to state your hard truths and opinions. I need to be strong for whatever's coming...


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

This thread makes me angry...mainly because I have been there...wife's slow fade away from the marriage...pulling away...only to one day tell me I love you but not in love with you. Shattered me...I begged and cried and pleaded. But my brokenness did not affect her...no it pushed her more away, repulsed her. At the same time, I was so ANGRY that after all the years of me bending over backwards to make sure that she got everything she had...all the sacrifices...that she just had nothing but contempt for me...but she didn't care to hear my complaints...didn't matter to her. She wasn't interested in making things right, she wanted OUT because she had been sold on the thought that she could do better and talk to OM.

When your wife is at that place, nothing you do FOR HER, to prove yourself, to try to shower her with more attention, will be good enough. You might as well being throwing gems down a black hole. Why? because she looks down on you...no respect. And you are constantly going to the place of lowering yourself at her feet when you try to appease her, win her back. Does she deserve that? Is she acting the role of a queen? You are saying: I have no worth, but you have greater worth. Love Must Be Tough author James Dobsen describes it like a used car salesman crying after you for a junk car you don't want. Does his begging help increase the value of the car in your eyes? That same goes for you...what are you selling to your wife? 

If there is no respect...and she already wants out...what good is begging and pleading and trying to woo her back going to do? Nothing...actually it will result in something...it will repulse her, suffocate her, push her away, repel her...she will feel so repulsed and annoyed that she will just avoid you and say probably the worst things imagineable...because humans are jerks and they act they way when A: They are selfish, B: When they are in the fog (affair-addicted, euphoric mind), C: Can't think of a third, but I like things in threes.

There is no rationale to their stupidity. They are so high one themselves, that they thing everything is great!!! And don't believe a single word she says about no longer talking to OM...that's her drug, man...that is what is fueling her super-inflated ego. DON'T REWARD this atrocious behavior. You did NOTHING to deserve this treatment. Sure, there may be some issues...but nothing...nothing justifies infidelity. NOTHING. So stop it, stop trying to figure out what you can do better. You've already tried that...it didn't work...she's NOT buying it. But it doesn't mean it's finished...yo can turn things around if you want to...

...but you have to ask, do I want to? Cos let's say you win her back...then what? Now you have all this resentment and anger of your own. Cos deep down you know she is treating you like dirt. Take your power now...do not give this woman another thought...move on with your life, go to the gym. Do not call this woman, do not text her...do not take her calls or texts each and every time. Keep it all down to business only...do not..in your conversations...try to drag her into changing her mind. Say you got stuff to do...gotta go! If she calls crying one night.."I'm so CONFUSED!!!!"..do not console her. You are NO LONGER HER FRIEND. YOU ARE A HUSBAND...and husbands do not get disrespected, cheated on, forced into a separation, dangled on a string, lied to, verbally abused, emotionally abused...heck no. Cut her off. She wants on her own fine, she can do her own bills...she can pay for her own cell (which she uses to call up her AP)....do nothing to make her life easier for her. She must understand that crap behavior gets consequences....without consequences, no pain....no pain, no sense to an unstable mind to ever think: "Hey maybe I'm really messed up right now." She is messed up. She is out of control...she just thinks that she has it all figured out. WRONG. he has NO IDEA what she wants...she is only going on insanity...and that means you STAY AWAY from the her crazy chaos that she created on her own. She is a disease to you right now...needs to be quarantined. You get your power back, man. YOU DECIDE what you want. YOU make the say of what kind of man you want to be and what kind of wife you will have. So cut her off...get away from her downward spiral. It is not healthy for you. Get healthy...get smart. Release her to her stupidity...and do not clean up her messes. This will be the hardest thing you have ever done...but you will be so happy you did. If she does snap out of it...then she has a lot of stuff to do to reconcile this...to line up with the woman that you have aptly defined that you expect to have in your life. SHE MUST meet that expectation...no not lower your standards because you are worried about being alone. That invites abuse all over again. This will earn her respect. This will draw her back in. This is won;t repell her...when you back off, give her space, work on your life, and not use her to make you feel better.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Em, I think it would be a lot easier for you if you could just let go of her. Do you really want to go through all this?

A marriage requires some work, but not too much. That is how you know you are with the wrong person.

If you can break away, you will realize there are many other fine females out there who will not treat you this way.

You are just starting out in life; why make it so hard on yourself?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

FormerSelf said:


> This thread makes me angry...mainly because I have been there...wife's slow fade away from the marriage...pulling away...only to one day tell me I love you but not in love with you. Shattered me...I begged and cried and pleaded. But my brokenness did not affect her...no it pushed her more away, repulsed her. At the same time, I was so ANGRY that after all the years of me bending over backwards to make sure that she got everything she had...all the sacrifices...that she just had nothing but contempt for me...but she didn't care to hear my complaints...didn't matter to her. She wasn't interested in making things right, she wanted OUT because she had been sold on the thought that she could do better and talk to OM.
> 
> When your wife is at that place, nothing you do FOR HER, to prove yourself, to try to shower her with more attention, will be good enough. You might as well being throwing gems down a black hole. Why? because she looks down on you...no respect. And you are constantly going to the place of lowering yourself at her feet when you try to appease her, win her back. Does she deserve that? Is she acting the role of a queen? You are saying: I have no worth, but you have greater worth. Love Must Be Tough author James Dobsen describes it like a used car salesman crying after you for a junk car you don't want. Does his begging help increase the value of the car in your eyes? That same goes for you...what are you selling to your wife?
> 
> ...



GOOD ****! :smthumbup:

to OP:
one thing i would suggest, so far as getting the power back...
go start divorce proceedings. you dont have to actually get a divorce, but hold that power close to you. have the papers ready. 

and definitely work on yourself.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

FormerSelf said:


> snip but great stuff


Thank you for writing FormerSelf. I read every word you wrote, and twice. Our first year anniversary would have been this Sunday...it's really difficult, but I'm going to stop being a wimp. I am still in this, cuz I love her so much...more than that, I realize now that I could actually make this work...oh well, what do I really know. 

I asked a question earlier and I would be grateful for views...what does it mean when she says that when we meet, it will be before a marriage counsellor where I will have a fair chance to explain myself? In this I would share that after she left on the first night, I realized that she had left behind both her engagement ring and wedding band. When a few days later she said she would come back to get her stuff (that's when she cleared the wardrobe of her dresses), I asked her to consider taking back both rings as a symbol that she would give our marriage a fair chance. When I got home, I saw that she had taken back her wedding band but left behind the engagement ring...and I've not been able to figure this one out.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sounds to me like she is trying to play head games with you.

she wont tell you, but she will do just enough to keep you off balance and wondering, keeping just enough hope alive so that you can still be her backup plan.

backup plan for what? well, i think most of us here have already said it... your wife wants to pursue an affair. without you there. 
but she still wants to come back to you in case her affair doesnt work out for her.

i think the statement about letting you "explain yourself" to a marriage counselor was her "throwing you a bone" so you feel like you had a chance to tell your side. but of course, by then she has already made preparations for her exit plan. i dont think it has anything to do with her being willing to actually work on the marriage. 

in my opinion, you have nothing to explain.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *FormerSelf said*: When your wife is at that place, nothing you do FOR HER, to prove yourself, to try to shower her with more attention, will be good enough. You might as well being throwing gems down a black hole. Why? because she looks down on you...no respect. And you are constantly going to the place of lowering yourself at her feet when you try to appease her, win her back. Does she deserve that? Is she acting the role of a queen? You are saying: I have no worth, but you have greater worth. Love Must Be Tough author James Dobsen describes it like a used car salesman crying after you for a junk car you don't want. Does his begging help increase the value of the car in your eyes? That same goes for you...what are you selling to your wife?
> 
> If there is no respect...and she already wants out...what good is begging and pleading and trying to woo her back going to do? Nothing...actually it will result in something...it will repulse her, suffocate her, push her away, repel her...


Former Selfs entire post is a great example of the 180 ...I found this thread on google with the list spelled out >>



> Plan A vs. 180 Plan - Marriage Builders® Forums
> 
> 180
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

explodingmachine said:


> SimplyAmorous - thank you for your post, every word you say is true of what's happened in our marriage and realizing this only after she's left me, and that this could be over, is tearing me apart. Can you help me by analyzing further a little?
> 
> *What can I do to abate her resentment over the lack of consummate love? I love her even now, don't blame her for getting attached to another man (after all it was my neglect in the first place that over time pushed her to him), and would be 100% willing to start off afresh. Also, she said she's not talking to him anymore (he is from another end of the world) and if anything, she stressed that it was about her lack in self, and not anybody else.
> *


 This is very tricky you see.. what may work for ONE woman may repulse another.. some may be moved by your coming around, humbling yourself admitting fault and in this..she will humble herself and give you *that chance*....coming together...both vulnerable before each other (Scary as hell for many to go there).....where you failed each other...and work to forgive from the heart....with a new plan...

But like Formerself has so clearly spelled out...some women will only be further REPULSED and it only makes them angrier... a little too little too late, they are the grudge holding type , they are finished and want to sling you through the mud, they do not know how to loosen the resentment that binds....even if she may want to.... she may be replaying awful reminders in her head...or off complaining to friends who tell her to leave you... who knows.. so many people just "agree" instead of giving "sound advice" to others.. why you need a marriage counselor, a good one, to unearth all of this... so you both can come clean to your own motivations, weaknesses, faults and learn to work together as a marital team....

But to be honest, from your posts, she sounds very rigid in her dealings with you.....like she will not even give you the time of day unless it is before a counselor....what is this about... is she afraid of you? 

What is it going to hurt to have a few conversations? Just seems so COLD to me... like she doesn't want to give an inch.. HER WAY or the highway... You want me back, you have to jump through my hoops.. sounds this is all she is offering to you...

How have you tried to show your remorse this far...is she aware of how strongly you want her back and are willing to fight for the marriage...or only WE see this side of your feelings here in your posts?

Question....When she has a falling out with friends/ family, what is she like...the grudge holding type...never forgives or is she empathetic to those who screw up and willing to LISTEN to their side ...and take them back, if she feels they were sorry.... Depending ...this should give you some idea of her character and how she may treat YOU 



> What does it mean when she says that when we meet, it will be before a marriage counsellor where I will have a fair chance to explain myself? Please feel free to state your hard truths and opinions. I need to be strong for whatever's coming...


The way she expresses her self -she sounds very angry .... *that you NEED to explain yourself* ... this is what I get from this statement...

WHat do you love about this woman... do you feel you even KNEW her all the months you shared to have her turn her back on you like this...when she was silent to her growing anger all those months...I am someone who would not understand holding my irritation in like that, I'd prefer a brawl over passive aggressive behavior.... at least we'd be communicating... and get it on the operating table....... so I have a hard time understanding women like this...


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

I've let things slide, her love tank is all empty and all my outbursts the last 3 arguments have only pushed her further. I spent the whole afternoon finishing Gary Chapman's 5 Languages of Love and started 3 chapters of His Needs Her Needs. I saw all the signs...and never heeded any of them. I went to town today and bought her a couple of things...Gary Chapman's book, a bracelet and nail polish (it's one of the things I used to get her while we were dating), and I'm passing them to her brother tomorrow. 

She's written me - I reckon this is in part her meeting with the MC. In her e-mail, she apologised for being overly harsh in cutting out all contact but she would still like us to keep the physical distance and for me to respect as much of her privacy as possible. She says she was unaware of what her needs and wants, or values, were at the beginning of our relationship, and she feels deep pain and inner conflict and just wants to be honest with herself; whatever happens out of this, she doesn't want me to blame myself and hopes I would find it in me to forgive her. She mentioned the MC has sent her for a psychiatric evaluation to determine if she has depression...and now I cannot but feel worried and hapless that I can't even be there for her. 

I've decided that I won't do the 180. In the end, it wouldn't be honest of me. I love her to bits - y'know sometimes it doesn't matter that a person is broken, and you just feel that you were placed in life to enter her world? I know I'm vacillating between positivity and despair, and sounding like a wimp. I want to - have to - be strong for myself and for her, yet at this time, on the eve of Christmas, all I feel is contempt for myself. For not reading the signs and loving her the way she needed to be loved. 

SimplyAmorous...I've been pondering your questions, but tonight I am not in the right state of mind for a response. I mean to reply when I'm in a better state... 

As'laDain...the articles helped. I am limerent, even if it is by an unrequited love.

Merry Christmas all, and my thanks for your support (it has been hard but helpful).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Have you looked at NMMNG?

I know you are tired, and I am sure the sadness is heavy. But you have to remember that you are a good person, and that you know now what not to do next time.

Courage!


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

jld - No I haven't checked out NMMNG...I'm working my usual long-ish hours, reading the recommended books while I can, and trying to take it all in. I might check it out sometime but as you've described it, it sounds daunting...but thank you so much for encouragement.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

explodingmachine...I doubt any of us questions the validity of Chapman's 5 Love Languages or doing something like The Love Dare...but the timing may be wrong in your scenario. Those things are good to do when you TRULY are on the mend.

Spouses ask for their physical space when they feel trapped and claustrophobic in the marriage...and perhaps are engaged in an affair. You may feel like your efforts to show her love will trigger a response within her that will draw her back...but I can almost guarantee that it will have a reverse effect. It will only make her feel more trapped...and she will want to avoid you.

I know backing off feels counter-intuitive...but it is basic human behavior. I suggest you read Love Must Be Tough. It describes the panic we feel when our spouse bails...and the crazy stuff we do when we are in a panic. Your wayward spouse sees that panic...wants to get away from it...doesn't want to be clawed at or held captive...they want their freedom. SO YOU GIVE THEM THEIR FREEDOM. That's it. Open the cage door...and suddenly, the tension disappears. The wayward spouse doesn't feel as trapped and the desire to leave lessens.

That's the point of the 180...letting them go. God gives us free will, so you have to honor her free will choice. At the same time, you are suffering from a lack of respect. Women do not stay with men they don't respect. That's why you set boundaries...where you are saying that her behavior is unacceptable...and you would choose to limit communication until she is willing to demonstrate that she is back on board. That says: I am worth respecting and I will only be treated with respect...it doesn't mean you have to be a jerk...it means that you care about yourself. Women seek security and validation in their relationships...but if the relationship is all about her and her husband doesn't foster respect...then she feels neither safe nor validated. Trust me, give her her space and set boundaries.

Yes, there is a risk that if you let her go, she may go...but you are going to have to face that fear and stop trying to control everything from falling apart. Let it go.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Em, please listen to FormerSelf. He is speaking pure wisdom.

Don't be too scared of NMMNG. They really can help. FormerSelf is probably from there.

The path you are on is not going to bring her back. But the path FS speaks of might.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

explodingmachine said:


> I've decided that I won't do the 180. In the end, it wouldn't be honest of me. I love her to bits - y'know sometimes it doesn't matter that a person is broken, and you just feel that you were placed in life to enter her world? I know I'm vacillating between positivity and despair, and sounding like a wimp. I want to - have to - be strong for myself and for her, yet at this time, on the eve of Christmas, all I feel is contempt for myself. For not reading the signs and loving her the way she needed to be loved.


i want you to think about this for a minute...

if practicing some tough love is the only thing that can get your wife to start respecting you, and to come home... then its the only way you can save your relationship with her.

if you go back to piling on more of the same crap that didnt work the first time... its not going to work the second time.

until she respects you, you wont be able to apply any of her love languages. until you respect yourself, she wont.

lets be honest with ourselves here... the only reason your willing to let her disrespectful behaviour slide is because you are still limerent. the reason your still limerent is because there were a lot of times when she did not requite your affections. so you see, this started a while ago.


i highly encourage you to listen to formerself on this one. while the 5 love languages is a good thing, you cannot use them at this point because she wont let you. the only thing you can make stronger is yourself.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

explodingmachine said:


> I've decided that I won't do the 180. In the end, it wouldn't be honest of me. I love her to bits - y'know sometimes it doesn't matter that a person is broken, and you just feel that you were placed in life to enter her world? I know I'm vacillating between positivity and despair, and sounding like a wimp. I want to - have to - be strong for myself and for her, yet at this time, on the eve of Christmas, all I feel is contempt for myself. For not reading the signs and loving her the way she needed to be loved.


I'm gonna come at this from the other side...the wife side of a "Nice Guy"...and I'm gonna be blunt as hell.

you want to "fix things" but you don't want to upset your wife...not "rock the boat" so to speak. That is cute in a sick puppy dog kind of way. 

Your wife knows that if she makes unrealistic demands on you, that you will just allow them to stand without challenging her, so who really wears the pants in the relationship? Cause from what I've read, she gives you a little "treat" of contact and you start running after her again. It's like dangling a treat in front of you and then watching you chase after it like a freaking bloodhound.

PERFECT quote from Robert Glover (Author of NMMNG):

"I sometimes refer to enmeshing Nice Guys as table dogs. They are like little dogs who hover beneath the table just in case a scrap happens to fall their way. Enmeshing Nice Guys do this same hovering routine around their partner just in case she happens to drop him a scrap of sexual interest, a scrap of her time, a scrap of a good mood, or a scrap of her attention. Even though they are settling for the leftovers that fall from the table, enmeshing Nice Guys think they are getting something really good." 

This is EXACTLY how you are appearing to your wife.

If my husband had continued to act towards me the way you are acting towards your wife, I'd have cut and run as soon as I could. How can I respect a person, let alone my husband, when he doesn't even respect himself? Thankfully, my husband did change this within the first 6 months of our marriage, and probably is the biggest reason we are still together 5 years later.

Quit working with the 5 Love Languages and His Needs/Her Needs...those book ONLY work when you actually have a relationship. No More Mr. Nice Guy is the book you need to focus on and work through right now.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

For you...

No More Mr Nice Guy

Do not let the title put you off.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

explodingmachine said:


> she starts saying we didn't have fatuous love to begin with and that's a problem for her because without it there is no basis for longevity in marriage.


If she entered the marriage knowing this deep down inside her and didn't tell you, and led you on, then she is not someone worth fighting for. You might have alienated her with gaming (I think it's ridiculous that adult men get addicted to video games) but she's just been on cruise control for the duration of the relationship. That's scary.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

FormerSelf said:


> Spouses ask for their physical space when they feel trapped and claustrophobic in the marriage...and perhaps are engaged in an affair. You may feel like your efforts to show her love will trigger a response within her that will draw her back...but I can almost guarantee that it will have a reverse effect. It will only make her feel more trapped...and she will want to avoid you.
> 
> I know backing off feels counter-intuitive...but it is basic human behavior. I suggest you read Love Must Be Tough. It describes the panic we feel when our spouse bails...and the crazy stuff we do when we are in a panic. Your wayward spouse sees that panic...wants to get away from it...doesn't want to be clawed at or held captive...they want their freedom. SO YOU GIVE THEM THEIR FREEDOM. That's it. Open the cage door...and suddenly, the tension disappears. The wayward spouse doesn't feel as trapped and the desire to leave lessens.
> 
> ...


FormerSelf - thank you. I am only beginning to see your advice now. The last few days have seen me succumbing to depression and desperation - I e-mailed her about meeting up and she pleaded with me to give her the time to seek clarity...I finally "gave up" and texted her that in 10 years or on my deathbed, I would still love her and that I was firstly her friend and secondarily her husband and liberator...and for what seemed like the first time in ages she thanked me and said my text means a lot to her...and later that night she texted to thank me for the Christmas gifts and said she had gotten me something a few weeks ago and it was in our wardrobe...and I texted back to thank her for it (hoping for a reply and not getting any).

anchorwatch - thank you for the link to NMMNG. I am nearly done reading it and have found good insights.

It is our 1st anniversary on Sunday, and I am thinking of getting her a book, and a pot of plastic shrub with a note that says "Plastic because we will last and never wither...". Well, that last bit is still a thought in progress... better suggestions are welcomed...

SimplyAmorous - I've put in some thought to your last post...she feels that our marriage thus far has been our chance and she has not been able to connect with me on a deeper level; and when she thinks back to the time I said I loved her (while dating) she's convinced she took on my belief instead of her own. She feels in fact that she had no way at the time of knowing what love is - in a way this might be true because she comes from a sheltered family that has passively steered her in her choices for her entire life, and she might not have thought beyond our relationship into marriage. Finally, she feels that since we cannot seem to connect on a deeper level (she uses the term "soulmates"), this might not be love. I'm stumped too...I mean, most books (even NMMNG) assume that there was love in the first place, and here we may actually have had no basis at all?! It scares me a lot, because I feel so much love for her (and not because she is not with me physically) and I know now how to communicate in line with her love languages...

As'laDain / Akinaura - and that is why your metamorphosis from separate individuals into romantic compatibility has become a significant source of my hopes and strength...


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

Hi - just updating my state, it's for my peace of mind really. 

She's still acting cold toward me - didn't respond to my greetings for Christmas or our anniversary though she sent cursory "thx for the gifts" messages for my Christmas/anniversary gifts (that I had to pass through her brother cuz she wouldn't even meet me for 5 minutes). The only lengthy messages I get from her are with regards to our MC. And on that, the first one we agreed on fell through - she found incompetent (she just seems so impatient now), and went to arrange her own MC, who suggested a 3-session individual counseling for me with his colleague (he said this would be so there would be no influence, whatever that means). I get enthusiastic and message her back with hope, only to get cursory "ok. take care" replies. So it's coming 3 weeks and still no respite. 

On my end, I've gone past shock/sadness and moved on to a general acceptance and occasional anger. It has finally sunk in that she went to another guy for emotional refuge and he ended up miring her unhappiness in our marriage - and has not apologised for it (going back on our messages, it took her 3 occasions before she revealed the fact, and even then she was defensive rather than apologetic). I've been reading when I can - work is still heavy going up to the eve of 2014 and I'm going to make a firmer stand to my senior partner when he comes back about balancing my hours. But the books have been therapeutic. I started with Chapman's 5 Languages; then Harley's His Needs Her Needs; NMMNG; Chapman's Desperate Marriages; and I've just completed Dobson's Love Must Be Tough - I really do love the last book. It's funny the MC (that's the one my wife has rejected) looks at the books and tells me not to read them ("why", I ask, "don't they give me hope for our desperate marriage?" She looks on with mild disdain, and comes back, "you don't have a 'desperate' marriage. Where is your wife? You have a 'sterile' marriage. Stop reading these books, you gotta focus on self!")...ok maybe my wife has the farsight on this one...

So, just a little over a month to go before we meet before the new MC. I'm going to apply Dobson's methods of being tough on love. Not going to hover around for her scraps and pity. I'm cleaning up my bad habits (didn't even buy anything from the Steam Christmas sale!) and the house in general. If at the end of this she doesn't choose love, I will grief again (because inherently I love her)...but I can't live on that assumption for the next month or so.

If there are any other good books you might recommend, please do let me know! Before I was abandoned to despair, I had no idea there could be support like this. Your views have been invaluable to me and helped me understand my marriage and myself better, for that I am most grateful. All my best wishes to you and your loved ones for the New Year.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Em, I am not familiar with that book you really like, but I would still encourage you to go over to the NMMNG forum and post your story.

I would not advise you to cut back your hours at work. It sounds like you are doing well there. Work is really important to a man's self esteem. Keep up the hours, and keep doing a good job. It may pull you through this difficult time.

Em, please try to face what the counselor is telling you. Please try to look at reality. She is moving on and you could do yourself a favor by facing that. You are a young man with what could be a great future ahead of you. Work on yourself and forget the relationship.

I'm sorry to be so harsh. If you were my son, I would tell you the same thing.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

jld - I always appreciate your posts, they always seem to have a see-I-told-you-so effect. 

The work is a bit of a personal self realization that's come through the last few days, that I could be rich financially but poor in soul; or be excellent at work but apathetic at home. My folks are older and these last few days my dad has been quite sick - it has made me realize that family outranks any job satisfaction I can get. (One of the last "desperate" things I did was to send my wife a copy of my CV and say that I would give up all my work achievements for her if she would come back.) Oh, and by the way, my dad's advice was to be patient and if she chooses not to have a marriage, to move on - so you both have given me the same advice!

Love Must Be Tough was recommended by FormerSelf, and it generally advocates the 180 principle albeit to do it with love...Dobson is actually a very passionate Christian so it was surprising and insightful that he would make such a stand. It's a really good book if you don't mind the specific religious position he subscribes to. 

I appreciate your offer to join the NMMNG forum...really do. I might surf to that site and see what it's about, and then who knows? But for now, I need the personal time to reflect on my self and find the strength and conviction from within me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lol, em. I am a mom of 4 boys. I imagine at least one will go through heartbreak and will not want to let go. And they will probably hear the same things I have said to you.

Best of luck.


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

jld - lolx, my apologies. I dunno why I would have assumed you were male!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

explodingmachine said:


> jld - lolx, my apologies. I dunno why I would have assumed you were male!


LOL! You are forgiven!


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## explodingmachine (Dec 16, 2013)

We met for the joint therapy today. She said she had checked out of the marriage and cannot come back to it anymore. There's a lot to it, but heart of it is that she never felt a true sense of being in love with me...(as to why she would have gotten married in the first place, it was simply because of an emotional deadness and the fact that I was outwardly a good package)...with that, there was very little else to hold on hope. I asked about boundaries...she would only agree to contact via e-mail, nothing else...and it would be limited to administrative stuff, anything more and she would resist further contact. I asked if she would be willing to give a last hug, and she was not willing. 

There is no one else, she just needs to find her self. I believe her... she'd been with this therapist before when she was a kid, and she has some issues of selective mutism...and it appears she has completely shut me out of her life.

So I am left with nothing but broken pieces of hope shattered all over. It's not over for me, of course, but it's now become a very, very long term hold on hope. I have been investing a bit of time on the divorce busting forums (just lurking, no posts)...and have moved on to work on self. I gotta start anew and move on, whilst keeping the flame alive. I do not want her gone from my life...though I accept that she is gone for now and probably a very long time. The laws of my country require another 2 years before we can divorce - time is now my only salvation, that through the throes of deep despair and splintered emotions will come a new relationship with my girl, someday.

I thank all of you who have helped me through this time.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

explodingmachine said:


> We met for the joint therapy today. She said she had checked out of the marriage and cannot come back to it anymore. There's a lot to it, but heart of it is that she never felt a true sense of being in love with me...(as to why she would have gotten married in the first place, it was simply because of an emotional deadness and the fact that I was outwardly a good package)...with that, there was very little else to hold on hope. I asked about boundaries...she would only agree to contact via e-mail, nothing else...and it would be limited to administrative stuff, anything more and she would resist further contact. I asked if she would be willing to give a last hug, and she was not willing.
> 
> There is no one else, she just needs to find her self. I believe her... she'd been with this therapist before when she was a kid, and she has some issues of selective mutism...and it appears she has completely shut me out of her life.
> 
> ...


OP: Then let her go and move on. Yes it hurts, but do the 180 and stick with it. You didn't take this advice and now you see that all your pleading has actually hurt rather than helped the situation.

You have simply accepted her word, her views, her judgments. You never questioned, never tried to verify whether she was speaking the truth. A very big mistake.

As others have said, there is a very high probability that she is having an exit affair, and that her behavior towards you has been greatly influenced by that. 

For your marriage to have had any chance, you would have had to find out the truth, and if she was involved with this guy, you would have had to expose the illicit affair. 

Nothing left to do but accept her decision that it's done, and to turn to yourself, work on yourself and make yourself a better man. And to do it for you, not in the hope of winning her back.


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## memyselfandi (Jan 10, 2012)

I believe that, although trying to support your family and working long hard hours..I'm sure your wife gets that, along with appreciating it. It's the time you have off where you spend it all watching tv and surfing the net instead of paying attention to your wife that hurts her and is killing her feelings.

You'd think after all those hours you spend working that you'd miss your wife and would want nothing more than to spend all your time with her on your days off.

Plus..have you ever considered that your wife probably looks forward to your days off also so the two of you can spend time together??

However you haven't done that...and eventually all the time she's spent wanting to spend time with you..it's gradually done a deal on how she feels about you.

It's kinda like a glass full of water...if you leave it sitting long enough..it eventually evaporates.

Regarding feelings she's not sure of with this other guy that's in another relationship..infatuation if that.

The bottom line is that she's probably been trying to get your attention for a very long time and you haven't responded. You can't just show up when you think you're losing her as marriage is a full time job. Sounds to me like you've been taking her and being married to her for granted.

The time she needs to figure things out? Maybe this is a time to treat her like a queen and change your ways.


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