# Not a bait and switch



## Kput (3 mo ago)

More a baby and switch.

I meet my future wife when i was out celebrating my 22 birthday, she was in the same club celebrating her 22 birthday.

We got talking, hit it off, sex started shortly after and 10 months later we got a flat together, at 25 we got married and at 30 we had our Daughter followed by a son 3 years later.

Now before our D was born my W was a sexual wildcat, our nre/honeymoon period lasted until my wife became pregnant then shutdown.

Now i am well aware of hormone changes and the pressures of a new baby however my wife and i compared to most had it easy, two doting grandmothers (who are great friends) who were am immense help and me who took on everything and i mean everything regarding the home.

However three years after our second child our sex life has not returned to its former level, sure we have sex but none of the former lust or passion from her side, tbh to me it seems like she is going through the motions, a chore to be completed, she denies this of course and it has caused bad feelings/arguments.

She said to me once during an argument "i dont know why you married me if i am so awful" i replied i married a wonderful outgoing sexy woman not you.)


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

To avoid confusion we are now in our mid forties and our daughter is 15


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

First off, I need to refer you to the Dr Psych Mom thread currently in the Sex In Marriage forum. A significant portion of Dr Psych Mom’s content in her articles and podcasts is about the attenuation of women’s sex drive in long term relationships. 

In my case, I was wisened up to this phenomenon when I was about 13 or 14.

when I was roughly jr high age and starting to be more aware of the world around me my dad brought home a very cute, cuddly,playful kitten.

The kitten and I instantly hit it off and we would play and roughhouse around for hours. When I would get home from school she would meet me at the door and we would play and chase each other around all evening and then at night she would lay on my chest and purr herself to sleep.

after this went on a few months and since he hadn’t gotten her spade, she went into heat. For days she was howling and sticking her butt in the air and trying to rub herself on everyone 🤮

then one day as someone was going out the front door, she darted across the room and ran between their legs and bolted out into the night .
i spent several sleepless nights worry about and looking for her all over town.

my folks both told me she would be back on the front doorstep in 3 days. While I appreciated them try to comfort me, I thought it was strange how they were so confident that she would be back in such a specific time frame.

then sure enough, on day 3 there she was waiting for me on the front step when I got home from school.

i was relieved and happy she was back of course, but within a day, I noticed she was somehow “different.”

She stopped meeting me at the door. She stopped following me around the house. She play with a string with me for a few moments but then she’d wonder off always seeming to be snooping around the house.

and she stopped sleeping with me.

Pretty soon her growing belly showed that some kittens were on the way.

she had her littler of kittens and was a good doting mother always feeding and nurturing her brood.

it was kind of fun and exciting having kittens in the house and one by one we found homes for all of them and in time there were all gone.

so the cat and I went back to playing and frolicking all day and she went back to purring herself to sleep with me at night right??

Wrong.

she might rub up against me for a moment or two when she wanted 3 strokes across her back but then she would wonder off to go sleep in the sunspot.

if I tried to pick her up and hold her to get her to play or cuddle with me she would squirm and push herself away, and never did she ever return to my bed.

one day I got all frustrated and mad that she wouldn’t play with me and I whined to my mom about it.

my mom got very serious and put on her school teacher face and sat me down to have “The Talk.”

she told me when females are young and have no offspring they are carefree and fun and playful and cuddly and want to be with you all the time.

but once they have offspring they become mothers and their attention shifts to the care of their babies and they worry about their babies all the time and no longer have the time to play and frolick and cuddle etc

and even when the babies are grown, they now have been changed forever into mothers and they are never the same playful, cuddly kitten again.

they may rub up against you for a minute every now and then, but generally do their own thing now and only want some attention and affection periodically and only for a moment or two.

my mom was very serious and frank. And even though I was young,, I knew she wasn’t really talking about cats.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Kput said:


> sure we have sex but none of the former lust or passion from her side,


She transitioned from spontaneous to responsive. You will need to change your methodology to accommodate where she is. Her saying “if I am so horrible”, indicates she has some resentment that will have to be addressed. 

The passion and lust can be there, but you will have to romance her to get her “wound up” into that state. She will likely never show spontaneous lust for you again. You have to play the game that is, not the one that was.


----------



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Kput said:


> i replied i married a wonderful outgoing sexy woman not you


Berating comments like this only pressure her more and are not helpful. Don’t badger her into changing or you won’t like the outcome.

Instead, like @Rus47 said, change your approach. She has changed and her biology has changed. You will have to change with it.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Men marry hot, sexy, sexually engaged women thinking they will never change.

Women marry men thinking the men will change with them and that sexuality won’t matter as much to the men after children and years and years of marriage.

Both are mistaken.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Thank you for your advice and comments. the sarky comment was from some years ago. A lot has changed since then but not in the sex department. My w is due home soon so I will post my story tomorrow


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Kput said:


> Thank you for your advice and comments. the sarky comment was from some years ago. A lot has changed since then but not in the sex department. My w is due home soon so I will post my story tomorrow


Yes and years of resentment and comments that make her feel less than will lead to a broken marriage.

Biology certainly does slow many women down after kids. I know it did me. But then men who seem to not understand things have changed can make things worse with such snarky comments. Their behavior and such. This resentment doesn't usually go away just because he stopped making snarky comments.

So to get past this you'd need to evaluate the whole relationship not just you unhappiness with the quantity of sex. I"m sure you now have resentment over the sex situation and she may as well. Depending on what's been said and how it's been presented. She could easily come to the conclusion that you married her only for sex and have no care or understanding about her needs and being a mother.

I'm sure that's not the case and she's just a dud....


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Words once spoken can never be unsaid. The damage done is hard to repair.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

@In Absentia


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Kput said:


> She said to me once during an argument "i dont know why you married me if i am so awful" i replied i married a wonderful outgoing sexy woman not you.)


You married a 25 year old girl with no kids. That was a really cruel thing to say. How is she supposed to be 25 and childless again? It's more than just a "snarky comment." There is more damage to be repaired than you realize. Yikes. Unless of course there is more to the story, which there is, because you said you were coming back with that. There's always context and two sides to every story.


----------



## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

What a ****ty comment. Your wife changed due to responsibilities and age. If you want a sexy young person, divorce and hook up. “ I didn’t marry you”. Wow. What a slap in the face.


----------



## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

If my husband essentially said he doesn’t want me and wants the past, I’d oblige and be gone. Do you know how horrible what you said is?


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

snowbum said:


> What a ****ty comment. Your wife changed due to responsibilities and age. If you want a sexy young person, divorce and hook up. “ I didn’t marry you”. Wow. What a slap in the face.


Right? Imagine if a woman came here and said she'd said that to her husband. She'd be nothing more than a grease spot on the floor when the men were done with her. But that was just a "snarky comment."


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In another thread you mentioned that your wife only does duty sex like some other chore and that you are envious of a coworker that is having an affair.

That is a very serious level of resentment, bitterness and dissatisfaction. There is probably serious levels of resentment and bitterness from BOTH of you. 

That is a level of marital strife that likely needs professional marital counseling/therapy to address and is probably beyond the scope of strangers on the internet.


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

I am sure that was stinger of a comment, and likely better left unsaid... but at the same time, the reason for the comment is another guy who watched the wife he loves change into someone that doesn't feel or act toward him anywhere near the way she did when they were both trying to decide if they were a good fit for each other, both in the test drive period with each other.

A lot of women seem to think they can change into whatever they want (often meaning cutting off the sex and affection that was once there) and the husband should be ok with it. 

We all understand that there are a lot of reasons why this happens often and yes kids / the stress of life / age etc take their toll on relationships... but the husbands are left standing there thinking "what the hell happened?". It sucks to be the husband in that situation, and I don't know why some women have zero empathy for the guys that find themselves in these predicaments. Maybe it touches a nerve in the ones who have done the same things to their husbands and are trying to justify it.

We should probably just get to blaming the husband here, because that is what this thread is going to turn into.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

re16 said:


> I am sure that was stinger of a comment, and likely better left unsaid... but at the same time, the reason for the comment is another guy who watched the wife he loves change into someone that doesn't feel or act toward him anywhere near the way she did when they were both trying to decide if they were a good fit for each other, both in the test drive period with each other.
> 
> A lot of women seem to think they can change into whatever they want (often meaning cutting off the sex and affection that was once there) and the husband should be ok with it.
> 
> ...


After 27 years of marriage and one kid in college and another a senior in high school.

I am now probably 35-40ish % a different person than when we married.

But other than looking freakily similar to our wedding night in pictures, my wife *IS *a completely different person.

not just sexually, but in virtually all other areas of her personality, demeanor and persona as well.

in our case SHE was the one that made the ‘snarky’ comment several years ago during a heated discussion about childcare where she told me if she had any idea of what I would be like raising kids, she would have never married me. She also gave me the ILYBNILWY that night.

We ended up in MC the next week.

She later recanted and said I’ve been a good father (I’ve actually been a great father, just not a good mother) and she also said that she does love me.

But the damage was done. We have never been the same since.

so yes, that comment from him could have cut deep and caused actual damage. I can testify to that from being on the receiving end of a very similar comment.

BUT it’s not fundamentally untrue. We are all different people after decades of marriage and kids and life experiences.

some people can adapt and continue to live and function with the people they become.

And some cannot.

Some even should not.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

re16 said:


> I am sure that was stinger of a comment, and likely better left unsaid... but at the same time, the reason for the comment is another guy who watched the wife he loves change into someone that doesn't feel or act toward him anywhere near the way she did when they were both trying to decide if they were a good fit for each other, both in the test drive period with each other.
> 
> A lot of women seem to think they can change into whatever they want (often meaning cutting off the sex and affection that was once there) and the husband should be ok with it.
> 
> ...


I have lots of empathy for him. But empathy isn't going to help him. REALITY. Most women have conflicts after child birth. REALITY. Most the time when our libido is very low there is a reason. REALITY. If you want the libido to come back you have to work on the issue as a whole not just ***** about the lack of sex. REALITY. There may be nothing to work on.

Women are often very self conscious, tired, sore and juggling a million things after child birth. A man who steps up and doesn't feed into that feeds the relationship. A man who make comments about weight, looks, sex, not enough attention, you aren't who I married.... well that often times does damage. Then the damage continues. We are now 15 years down the road. So we are probably looking at a possible walk away wife in what 3 to 7 years depending on if this daughter is going to college?

But if the damage can be repaired then we need to looks at the whole. She has obviously contributed to the break down by not being intimate with her husband. We know that, he's stated it. Why it is some kind of man bashing to ask him what his contribution is?>???

Do you think a marriage counselor focuses on only one side?

I know if my husband makes me feel unsexy then I feel unsexy. And I am not one of the woman or people on this forum that is like have sex no matter what. It's actually an act of intimacy for me. It's and act of love and trust. I need to feel loved to offer love. I"m fortunate that my husband makes me feel loved everyday. So I'm usually DTF whenever. But that isn't going to be true for many women when there is an emotional gap or hidden resentment. OR bad sex.

Edited to correct. They do have sex. He just doesn't think it's passionate enough. It isn't wildcat enough. He thinks she isn't good enough. Has told her so and she's heard him.... So yeah no damage there at all.


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> so yes, that comment from him could have cut deep and caused actual damage


Agree with a lot of your post, but lets not forget the damage that occurred by her actual behavior prior to that comment, the behavior that illicited the words. That damage is worse in my book.

And yes, the comment likely just adds to the snowball that is already rolling downhill....


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

re16 said:


> Agree with a lot of your post, but lets not forget the damage that occurred by her actual behavior prior to that comment, the behavior that illicited the words. That damage is worse in my book.
> 
> And yes, the comment likely just adds to the snowball that is already rolling downhill....


So how do you propose he proceed? They should just keep damaging each other?


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

re16 said:


> A lot of women seem to think they can change into whatever they want (often meaning cutting off the sex and affection that was once there) and the husband should be ok with it.


No. This is a false equivalency to absolve the husband of any responsibility. No one said that the wife can do whatever they want and the husband has to be "ok with it." Likewise, the wife should not have to accept whatever abuse the man feels like doling out because he is angry with her. Life is a process and people change, and what he said was that if she couldn't be 25 and childless he didn't want her. Neither of them are blameless here. That the H wasn't getting what he needed from the marriage justifies him being angry and vocal about it, but it no more justifies cruelty than anything he did to her would justify HER cruelty.


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> I have lots of empathy for him. But empathy isn't going to help him. REALITY. Most women have conflicts after child birth. REALITY. Most the time when our libido is very low there is a reason. REALITY. If you want the libido to come back you have to work on the issue as a whole not just *** about the lack of sex. REALITY. There may be nothing to work on.


Agree with alot of that. The hard part for the guys, how do you raise the issue without coming off as implying that they have changed? I think usually the women already know they changed, but the husband saying something is hurtful... catch 22.

Based on your posts, you clearly aren't one those types, and frankly are what alot of these guys were hoping for.



Anastasia6 said:


> But that isn't going to be true for many women when there is an emotional gap or hidden resentment. OR bad sex.
> 
> Edited to correct. They do have sex. He just doesn't think it's passionate enough. It isn't wildcat enough. He thinks she isn't good enough. Has told her so and she's heard him.... So yeah no damage there at all.


So what was his correct move? Not say anything? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to figure out how he should be acting differently, because him doing something different seems to be the implied solution.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Why it is some kind of man bashing to ask him what his contribution is?>???


This is exactly what we always see. Any implication that the woman is not solely to blame for any relationship problem is "man bashing." The blame for bad marriages is SHARED. Even when one side is worse than the other (let's bear in mind, we don't know what kind of nasty things SHE has said to HIM, his comment may seem tame in comparison when we get all that information) they both bear some responsibility (except when one lies and cheats, that's different, but that probably goes without saying).

There are problems in this marriage and we don't have all the information. But based on what we know, what he said was really cruel. She can't be 25 and childless and if she can't be that he doesn't want her. Threats are not sexy. He didn't just "say something," he told her he didn't want to be married to her any more because she isn't fun or sexy enough for him. She cannot go back in time and be the woman he married, so she has zero options.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> So how do you propose he proceed? They should just keep damaging each other?


my proposal is exactly what I said above: I think they need professional help and guidance if this marriage is to last and be functional.

he stated in another thread that he is envious of a coworker that is having an affair.

That to me indicates a very critical state in their relationship regardless of who started it.


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> So how do you propose he proceed? They should just keep damaging each other?


Well, I know that he can't control her, he can only control himself. She is the only one that can control herself, so she would have to make the changes, and to do that SHE would have to want to make those changes.

Those kind of things, were one spouse wants to do things to please the other, including making changes, seem to only happen when both spouses are willing to listen and acknowledge what the other party is saying.

If she feels defensive about his statments, then he is stuck.... and that is why I was saying that these situations are very tough. I don't have magic advice that works.


----------



## Rooster Cogburn (9 mo ago)

Kput said:


> More a baby and switch.
> 
> She said to me once during an argument "i dont know why you married me if i am so awful" i replied i married a wonderful outgoing sexy woman not you.)


Feel you bro. Baby and switch is the right term. 

Now... to the point-

What you said was the TRUTH. Doesn't matter if she doesn't like it.... people on here don't like it... or your mother doesn't like it... what you said is true. In fact... I would say that 100% of my male friends did not marry a woman with 2 kids at her feet. They married a younger gal that seemed to have her **** together that was childless just like I did. 

The fallout for every human is dealing with the TRUTH. 

And folks on here or in real life can (and do) lament me for speaking truth... and here is some- the female sex has a distinct problem dealing with truth for whatever reason.

Moving on.

Only you can decide the subjective value your marriage has and the work you put into it... only you. (Although I would have the definitive heart-to-heart with your other half on your feelings and get her side of things as well to help you gauge what "grade" you/ her are earning in your mind. In this conversation... you want truth... no hyperbole and tit for tat.) 

If you feel it's entirely lopsided toward the kids... then you have 3 options that are pretty obvious-
A.) Change nothing and suck it up
B.) Divorce
C.) Pull back on various fronts until you feel the work/ energy/ relationship is balanced of your effort vs her effort. Don't be a **** here. Just start doing stuff that YOU enjoy outside of the house. This is hard to do if you genuinely love her but you have to in order to not lash out or be disrespectful when the efforts are not balanced. 

But here's some more truth- Your relationship with your wife is NEVER going back to what it was. Her appearance, patience, desire, and overall motivation for YOU has changed. It's not going back to pre-kids. It can revert some... but even if you were past the honey moon phase and it was the 7th year of marriage when she became pregnant... that "6th year her" is not coming back either. Mind blowing, right?

Let me put it to you this way...

If someone said 5 years ago the following to me-
'By 2022...

You will no longer trust the institutions of health in your country.
You will be told men can have children
Your wife will morph into a different person with a non-spoken disregard for your marriage after children
Communist ideals will become a theology world-wide...'

I would have walked away thinking, 'What a goof! Hey, honey, listen to this! I just talked to this soothe-sayer... guy was nuts! haha!'

EDIT: Saw you were jealous of another coworker having an affair. DON'T do this. You are better than that. Your wife doesn't deserve that... no one does. 


Best of luck.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

re16 said:


> Agree with alot of that. The hard part for the guys, how do you raise the issue without coming off as implying that they have changed? I think usually the women already know they changed, but the husband saying something is hurtful... catch 22.
> 
> Based on your posts, you clearly aren't one those types, and frankly are what alot of these guys were hoping for.
> 
> ...


Well I wish I had a crystal ball. My husband has what he has because of 20 years of consistent loving actions. Including right after my child was born and the doctor stitched me up too tight. He was very understanding about sex as it was painful. So now I have that 20 years to look back on and it's so sexy to me. I just want him...

So our OP can't go back in time. His one time snarky comment probably hasn't been the whole story here.

So let me ask you this. She's having sex with him she says she loves him. He thinks it isn't good enough because it doesn't have the New Relationship Energy/sex. Do you think he's getting starfish sex or just not sex in the closet at a party?

We will see if OP comes back to help us on this journey but until then.

I'd ask him if he knows what her love languages are..
How does he still whoo her. So she isn't having sex like they were dating but is he still dating her.
If I were him, I'd recognize that it takes time to undo 15 years of damage. So many times on these threads an OP will 'try' something for a week or two and if they don't see dramatic changes they give up.
I'd ask if there is anything she's been saying over and over.... Often times men don't listen until it's too late.

I'd also ask (and I know this is going to make your head spin) Does he watch porn.
Exactly what kind of sex are they having and exactly what is he expecting.
Often times women slide into responsive desire. Many men don't recognize this or expect pizza guy delivers a pizza and a big load movie.

I can't figure out how to 'fix' it or if it is even fixable until we get a better idea of the whole picture.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

The timeline as I understood it was that 5 years after marriage they had first child. All the dynamic changed. She became a mother. OP didn’t adapt well to the changes. They are now 15 years (?) from then, and they are in their forties. 

A dangerous time for a marriage with problems.



Kput said:


> She said to me once during an argument "i dont know why you married me if i am so awful" i replied i married a wonderful outgoing sexy woman not you.)


These words are in her head since they were spoken. Can you imagine if you had been the recipient instead of the speaker?



Kput said:


> it seems like she is going through the motions, a chore to be completed,


Maybe that is how she feels. Running out the clock until the kids are raised ( 5 more years? )

Thinking some more about this, you have way more to deal with beyond RD vs SD dynamic. I dont honestly see how you recover from the cruel words years ago. And no doubt those arent the only cruel words spoken. 

I hope you don't say similar to your kids.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

The stuff being discussed in the last handful of posts is exactly why I am advocating MC/MT.

there are some natural forces at play here that perhaps neither of them were/are equipped to navigate on their own.

If he thinks she’s going to have 2 kids and age 15 years and not change - he is mistaken.

If she thinks he will change with her and in the same manner as her and that her change in response towards him will not effect or impact him, she is mistaken. 

They both may have some mistaken beliefs and assumptions and both need guidance on how to move forward so that the resentment and pressure and discord doesn’t just keep snowballing. 

They both ARE different people today and if they are to continue to have a functional marriage going forward, they will need to learn and adapt to how to love and support each other as the people they are now.


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

From someone that went through this....

The synopsis of my story is:

Wife retreated post kids.
There was nothing physically wrong with her.
She was making statement like ILBNILWY.
Shunning affection & attention.
Got to the point that I started saying this is no longer a relationship.
Go to MC.
Go to another MC.
Go to a third MC.
They all say the same thing, she is killing the marriage. Took nearly a year for her acknowledge all this and get into IC.
I decided I was done.
Finally real discussions started taking place.
She decided to make changes.
Took a couple years and then finally getting on treatment for anxiety to really resolve.
All said was about an 8 year process from first child.
I still harbor a lot of resentment about it all.
I now feel happy again.

It was a long and difficult path.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rus47 said:


> Words once spoken can never be unsaid. The damage done is hard to repair.


Yes, and those words MUST have hurt deeply.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Kput said:


> More a baby and switch.
> 
> I meet my future wife when i was out celebrating my 22 birthday, she was in the same club celebrating her 22 birthday.
> 
> ...


The Madonna-Wh#re complex is not just for men.

Some women believe that after child birth they are "mothers" and no longer fun loving sexual beings who are married to a sexual man. Still others get disgusted with their bodies, no longer feel sexy and don't want to be reminded that their bodies have changed after the birth of babies.

My marriage became sex starved at a much later time frame. What saved it was the help of a marriage counselor and sex therapist.

Good luck.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> No. This is a false equivalency to absolve the husband of any responsibility. No one said that the wife can do whatever they want and the husband has to be "ok with it." Likewise, the wife should not have to accept whatever abuse the man feels like doling out because he is angry with her. Life is a process and people change, and what he said was that if she couldn't be 25 and childless he didn't want her.


Please,
Let’s be fair. He did not say he wanted her to be 25 and childless. That is your interpretation.

he said “I married a wonderful outgoing sexy woman, not you”.

this is concerning.

These are two completely different statements. You are projecting onto his situation with what you think he meant. What if we took his words at face value first?

wonderful, outgoing sexy woman.

last time I checked, MANY men consider these adjectives when describing women regardless
Of age. Until the OP says otherwise, im going to assume he still would think these adjectives when describing his wife if she acted in this way. Having children and being 25 years old has nothing to do with his words.


----------



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Please,
> Let’s be fair. He did not say he wanted her to be 25 and childless. That is your interpretation.
> 
> he said “I married a wonderful outgoing sexy woman, not you”.
> ...


But you can’t take sentences like that apart without losing the intended meaning.

”I married a wonderful outgoing sexy woman, and that’s you” would have gone a long way to mending broken emotions. He blew it with what he said.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> But you can’t take sentences like that apart without losing the intended meaning.
> 
> ”I married a wonderful outgoing sexy woman, and that’s you” would have gone a long way to mending broken emotions. He blew it with what he said.


Asking her to be vulnerable with him after that is… a lot. I’d still like to know more of the story, because he hasn’t really explained all the fights and what led him to say something so nasty and cruel. I mean, if that’s how he feels about her why would he want her to be naked or try to be sexy? There’s more to the story I’m sure, so I need to cool my jets 😉, and that comment does strike me in my feelz, so context will be important.


----------



## Rooster Cogburn (9 mo ago)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> But you can’t take sentences like that apart without losing the intended meaning.
> 
> ”I married a wonderful outgoing sexy woman, and that’s you” would have gone a long way to mending broken emotions. He blew it with what he said.


What am I missing? I find no fault of what the man said. Tell me in clear, concise language just WHY he blew it? Because as I see it... her behavior seemed to be NOT of that of a childless, outgoing, sexy woman. By his descriptions of course. 

Honest question based on what we both read. (Don't base it on what BeyondRepair's wife would have liked to hear.)


----------



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> What am I missing? I find no fault of what the man said. Tell me in clear, concise language just WHY he blew it? Because as I see it... her behavior seemed to be NOT of that of a childless, outgoing, sexy woman. By his descriptions of course.
> 
> Honest question based on what we both read. (Don't base it on what BeyondRepair's wife would have liked to hear.)


Of course the literal words OP used might be true in his opinion.

But It comes down to whether you want to support and encourage your wife with positive affirmation, or tell her a raw opinion that will hurt her.

Most relationships do better when the couple encourages each other rather than tear each other down.

He shouldn’t have put her down like that.
And I’ll thank you kindly to leave my wife out of this.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> But you can’t take sentences like that apart without losing the intended meaning.
> 
> ”I married a wonderful outgoing sexy woman, and that’s you” would have gone a long way to mending broken emotions. He blew it with what he said.


What I've said appears to have fallen on deaf ears. 

I don't care if what he said was positive or negative reinforcement. 


I need to know how saying "I married a wonderful outgoing sexy woman, not you" is somehow magically turned into "I want a childless 25 year old woman"


Please connect that line for me. How in the hell were the OP's words twisted so well by texasmom that others started to believe her?! This is crazy! 

If people want to say what the OP said is bad or cruel... that is fine and there is an argument there, but I don't think that is happening here. I think people allowed one member to twist the OP's words into something that is most definitely cruel.... and also something the OP did NOT say. Texasmom projected her interpretation onto the OP's words instead of taking them at their face value and others hopped on board. What the hell, people?! Let's at least criticize the man for words he actually said!


On top of that, I don't think what you've said will work either. Sounds like validating her to continue doing what she is doing... which apparently the OP doesn't want.


----------



## DaringGreatly (7 mo ago)

I would like more information before jumping in.

If the change happened around the time you Both became parents I would like to know, apart from calling your and her mommies to come and help out when the baby was born, what was your role?

How did YOU help and support your wife during the longest, hardest, most wonderful, transformative two years of her life. Because I am certain that how YOU behaved has had long lasting consequences for her attraction to you. 

She leveled up from a carefree girl into a woman, wife and mother. How did you level up from a boy into a man, husband and father?


----------



## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

don't put to much thought into the words said in a heated moment years ago , 
it is never to late to turn things around 
I don't have a lot of time just now to make this post , but I see many men talk about how their wife changed after the kids came along 

I work around a lot of young guys I see them grow up 
I have seen the biggest changes in guys is when they become a father 
I split them into two groups the ones that step up and find a job that puts them at home more and the guys that seem to have no home to go to , they look for someone to have a beer with after work , they hang around the car park , some even change jobs and end up in a job paying the same amount but an hours drive away or worst case some end up on a job that takes them away from home for days at a time 

I don't know their home life but I SEE THEM GET PHONE CALLS from the wife or gf asking when are you going to be home 

I can go on but it comes down to it takes two to tango ,
babies take up a lot of time and make changes to a relationship 
the op here I see as one of the lucky one he got to know his wife first and they were together for years before the first child came along so they had time to get to know each other 

I find sex with people that are together a long time can go one of two ways 
and I am one of the guys that was a virgin the day I married so did not know if we were going to be a good match (would not recommend that to anyone now , too much of a risk , ) lucky it all worked out for us 
but a lot is down to how you look at relationships and what you are willing to do and talk about everything to your other half 
the two types of sex in a marriage are the ones that think it is a game of golf and you try to get it in the hole as fast as you can 
or the type that see it as more a Aladdin's cave and take their time to explore take time for sex and it is not just get my rocks off as quick as I can 

you need to find a way to talk about sex and you need to read between the lines , I thought i know my wife until I see the other side of her wildly turned on , 

recommend read all you can about sex like it is your new hobby if you never built a robot you would read all about it find out how others did it if you think you know it all and say things like some posters say here "I AM GOOD IN BED my wife told me " LOL


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> @In Absentia


Why are you quoting me? Not sure to which part of my story you are referring to... there are many...  but my hunch is that I badgered my wife about sex and I made things worse. That's true. In my defence, I did not know her mental issues were so bad. She was very good at keeping her issues from me. Unfortunately, with resentment, the relationship becomes an unsafe place. It's difficult to recover from that.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> What am I missing? I find no fault of what the man said. Tell me in clear, concise language just WHY he blew it? Because as I see it... her behavior seemed to be NOT of that of a childless, outgoing, sexy woman. By his descriptions of course.
> 
> Honest question based on what we both read. (Don't base it on what BeyondRepair's wife would have liked to hear.)


I will give it a shot. A couple is actually on the same team, not enemies. So when we have arguments, we don't mortally wound our partner. Words can mortally wound a person, either male or female. Even if what he said is true, it was said in a way to inflict maximum damage and pain. He was just wrong, full stop.

Review @oldshirt post about his wife's comments to him in a heated momen.

Just a personal story. My father was a combat marine during WW2 in the south pacific. He experienced as a 20 year old horrors that no human should endure. As a result, he had what is called PTSD today for the rest of his life. He said things on a handful of occasions to me, a five year old child, that I can still hear today rattling around in my head more than seven decades later. To the point that I wasn't worth much as a son. He was a wonderful father otherwise, but the damage was done. I struggled with confidence my entire life. His profuse apologies later in his life had no effect.

OP was just wrong. I have no idea how his marriage recovers. My suspicion is his wife is biding her time until the kids are grown, then she will be gone.


----------



## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

yes it is true that words can be worse than any thing and we can some times think of the words that hurt like a knife in the back or even the un said words , when your with someone long enough they can read you like a book and sometimes they know what is been not said ,

but unless there was a lot more bad stuff going on at the time most words said run off like water off a ducks back 

but some times I have seen it said that in a relationship you get a number of chances , each time you use a chance it is not replaced and one day your chances run out ,
sometimes it is just the straw that brakes the bridge


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Firstly let me put the comment in context.

Iirc correctly it was a Saturday morning and my w was in the bedroom sorting out clothes for the charity shop, she called downstairs and asked if I had anything to donate, I made a few contributions and sat on the bed watching my w going through her stuff she pulled an unopened packet of stockings from a draw and added them to the pile, she saw me looking and said what have I done wrong now I replied nothing really I just remember you wearing stockings and what a turn on it was but just get rid of them if you want to, and that's when she said "if I am so awful why did you Marry me etc.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Kput said:


> Firstly let me put the comment in context.
> 
> Iirc correctly it was a Saturday morning and my w was in the bedroom sorting out clothes for the charity shop, she called downstairs and asked if I had anything to donate, I made a few contributions and sat on the bed watching my w going through her stuff she pulled an unopened packet of stockings from a draw and added them to the pile, she saw me looking and said *what have I done wrong now* I replied nothing really I just remember you wearing stockings and what a turn on it was but just get rid of them if you want to, and that's when she said "if I am so awful why did you Marry me etc.


That comment is rather telling...


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

In what way?


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Some posters have suggested that my w my quit the marriage when the kids are older, I have very good reason to think otherwise indeed she worries far more that I will.

I hope people don't get the impression that we are constantly in conflict that is far from the case however the negative sexual tension sometimes bubbles to the surface.


----------



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Kput said:


> Some posters have suggested that my w my quit the marriage when the kids are older, I have very good reason to think otherwise indeed she worries far more that I will.
> 
> I hope people don't get the impression that we are constantly in conflict that is far from the case however the negative sexual tension sometimes bubbles to the surface.


For a bit of an example…
If another man was going to approach your wife, he would likely start with complimenting her and telling her how attractive she is. He would listen to her and let her know he enjoys spending time with her, and would make efforts to be with her.

This is one model of filling her emotional needs that could lead to a sexual relationship.

After many years in marriage, couples often don’t say and do those things for each other anymore, or rarely. It creates an emotional and physical gap that is hard to reverse. I suspect you don’t say and do those things anymore either.

You have actually made that gap even wider by having high expectations and making comments that add to the pressure when the expectations aren’t filled. I assume this isn’t the only comment like this you’ve made, and is more likely to be part of your normal arguments about the topic. Even when you said “…you wearing stockings and what a turn on it was but just get rid of them if you want to.” could be negative and remind her of her failings (depending on your tone).

My point is that you should do 2 things.
1. Get into counseling to help open up the communication about this subject.
2. Reset your expectations and the approach to your wife. Be supportive and encouraging rather than condemning when your expectations are not met.

(Lots of assumptions about your communications and interactions in this comment. Jump in and clarify if it’s not right)


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Kput said:


> In what way?


Although you say it's not the case, it seems to me that your wife _does_ feel constantly under attack (from her comment - *what have I done wrong now*).


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> Although you say it's not the case, it seems to me that your wife _does_ feel constantly under attack (from her comment - *what have I done wrong now*).


If not attack constantly not good enough. That rarely leads to sexy feelings. Especially when she knows she's not good at sexy time either.

So how often does your wife orgasm?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Although you say it's not the case, it seems to me that your wife _does_ feel constantly under attack (from her comment - *what have I done wrong now*).


I think this is a possibility for sure.

at the same time, she also sounds fatalistic and paranoid to me. Instead of trying to want to be better and have a better marriage, it sounds like she prefers to complain and enjoys being a victim.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

The comment is important only because it 1. Is a strong source for insecurity for her. 2. Makes her feel pressure to be the outgoing sexy woman she once was. Feeling pressure and insecurity is not a state that leads to a woman being sexually open and free. 

The comment by itself is the cause of you problems, but the fact she said what she said first shows she already felt the pressure and reason for insecurity before you said it. 

My wife also went through a libido drop after having our kids, a serious drop. We were able to work through it with very intentional work on both our parts and with a little help from a marriage counselor. 

The first thing we did was set aside 1 hour every night once the kids were in bed for us to sit and connect, not TV no phones no distractions of any kind just us sitting with a glass of wine talking about us, the kids, life, the future, the past whatever. 

Second, we set a weekly date night that we stuck with 100% of the time. The point is we made us a top life priority. I have noticed it can be very hard for some women to make their marriage a priority over anything else, there are a lot of things that women feel insecure about and the idea that anything is as important as her job as mom is a hard to fathom. 

Once our husband wife connection was better set we started looking at other things like hormones, fitness, all the physical on both sides. We found a doctor who specialized in womens libido issues and after a bunch of consultations and testing he put her on testosterone. The rebuilding the affection and connection and then adding the hormones set her libido on fire. She is still variable but has remained very sexual for the past 10 years, she has been a real horn ball steadily for the past 2 years which has been the longest stint of super high sex drive she has had. 

It takes time and effort from both of you. You need to be vigilant in helping boost her self esteem and making her feel like a sexy wife, she needs to be vigilant in seeing she can be both a great mom and loving affectionate wife. It can take time and nothing will change over night, but if you work on it as a team it is fixable. 

I recommend that you make some intentional changes that will be focused more on building the romantic connection than getting to wild sex. Once the connection is on the right path take a no kids trip somewhere relaxing to celebrate your progress. 

She needs to know this is very important to you and your marriage. The most important thing to understand is she has to want to change things too, if you're the only one putting in the work nothing will change. What I described above was the path my wife and I took. We were guided by a few months of weekly appointments with a marriage counselor, your path might be a little different but the intention and teamwork are the same.

Additionally my wife did a lot of things individually to awaken her libido, like reading erotic literature and watching some porn on occasion. 




Kput said:


> Some posters have suggested that my w my quit the marriage when the kids are older, I have very good reason to think otherwise indeed she worries far more that I will.
> 
> I hope people don't get the impression that we are constantly in conflict that is far from the case however the negative sexual tension sometimes bubbles to the surface.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

snowbum said:


> What a ****ty comment. Your wife changed due to responsibilities and age. If you want a sexy young person, divorce and hook up. “ I didn’t marry you”. Wow. What a slap in the face.


You don't know this. 

A lot of women with teenagers are more interested in their husbands than this woman is, of the same age and of course with responsibilities. She didn't become what she is because of "age" and "responsibilities" she became what she is because it's who SHE is.

Not every middle aged woman with a family is lackluster towards her marriage. Nope.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Kput said:


> Firstly let me put the comment in context.
> 
> Iirc correctly it was a Saturday morning and my w was in the bedroom sorting out clothes for the charity shop, she called downstairs and asked if I had anything to donate, I made a few contributions and sat on the bed watching my w going through her stuff she pulled an unopened packet of stockings from a draw and added them to the pile, she saw me looking and said what have I done wrong now I replied nothing really I just remember you wearing stockings and what a turn on it was but just get rid of them if you want to, and that's when she said "if I am so awful why did you Marry me etc.


See, you remember EXACTLY how it went down. And rest assured she does also. Every single word. Where she was, what day it was what else was going on. Her question shows she believed already that you thought she was “awful”. And your response just confirmed that.

Exactly like my memories from 70 plus years ago. I forgave my father, he was dealing with his own huge demons and surely didnt mean to scar a five year old. But unfortunately I will carry his words to MY grave.

The sexual relationship with your wife is only a symptom of much deeper pain. Yes both of you have a part, but at this stage there is an awful amount of wreckage.


----------



## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> For a bit of an example…
> If another man was going to approach your wife, he would likely start with complimenting her and telling her how attractive she is. He would listen to her and let her know he enjoys spending time with her, and would make efforts to be with her.
> 
> This is one model of filling her emotional needs that could lead to a sexual relationship.
> ...





happyhusband0005 said:


> The comment is important only because it 1. Is a strong source for insecurity for her. 2. Makes her feel pressure to be the outgoing sexy woman she once was. Feeling pressure and insecurity is not a state that leads to a woman being sexually open and free.
> 
> The comment by itself is the cause of you problems, but the fact she said what she said first shows she already felt the pressure and reason for insecurity before you said it.
> 
> ...


put these two posts together and think about some form of help to get a better level of contamination going together WE CAN'T SAY if it is your approach is poor or if it is just that she is insecure but you do need help to open the gate it is just a little blockage if treated in time


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Rus47 said:


> See, you remember EXACTLY how it went down. And rest assured she does also. Every single word. Where she was, what day it was what else was going on. Her question shows she believed already that you thought she was “awful”. And your response just confirmed that.
> 
> Exactly like my memories from 70 plus years ago. I forgave my father, he was dealing with his own huge demons and surely didnt mean to scar a five year old. But unfortunately I will carry his words to MY grave.


Based on her saying "why did you marry me if I'm so horrible" she was already feeling like this, either based on the OPs attitude towards her or self inflicted feelings of insecurity. She remembers how she was, she knows how she is now, she knows there's a problem whether he says anything or not. His comment was the possibly the final kill shot, it's possible to improve things but it is very difficult and a lot of work. 

The key is focusing on fixing the marriage first then focus on sex.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

You say you sex life “hasn’t returned to its former level.” So it’s not that you’re not having sex, she just isn’t sexy or exciting to you any more. Is that it?

Did you ever apologize for saying that to her? How often do incidents like that happen?

Why does she feel under attack? (“What did I do now?”)

Has your behavior/attitude changed since you got married? How about priorities? Are they the same or have they shifted as you aged?

There is a LOT more to this.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

The OP does say sex seems a chore for his wife. Duty sex is never great, but I suspect it's become a chore because she feels under pressure and she hates it. Pressing the reset button would be the right thing to do in the relationship, but I fear it might be too late.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Tmom, to answer your questions.

No i did not apologise and please be aware this was approx 9 years ago.

Do i regularly make snarky comments, no i dont although it is not unknown. We rarely argue as i dont think it is worth it and achieves little.

No i did not change when i got married, as i said our nre period lasted from when we met till our first child anamazing period in my life.

Have my priorities changed, only in that my children were added to my list of most important things in my life which are my wife and children followed by my sister, parents and in laws. 

Sex is as regular as i want it i am rarely rejected but it is poor stuff compared to before the kids.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Kput said:


> Sex is as regular as i want it i am rarely rejected but it is poor stuff compared to before the kids.


Well, I could point out that as we age women's bodies change and we are rarely as confident as we were when we were young, but I'm not sure that would be heard or matter. And although it was 9 years ago, I promise you, she can still hear your voice and see your face when you said it. She has not and will not forget. Expecting a comment like that to not effect her self confidence is bananas, especially since you never apologized, which means you believe the comment was true and warranted. I'm not sure there's really anything to fix here. You sound done. Especially since sex with her is "poor stuff." How surprising that she isn't running around begging for sex, knowing how you feel about and see her.  Why are you even there? Are you staying for your child? (children? there's one, correct?)

ETA: You didn't answer the question for why she feels attacked. But I think I can tell from the tenor of your post why.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

This is the best example of how my w once was, i am at home with a workmate who has come for some spare parts which i had in my van. We are having a cup of tea.

My wife comes in the door and from the hallway she shouts "christ what a bloody awful day, i need a glass of red wine and a good fkng so get to it" she walks into the lounge sees my workmate, her face was priceless.

How can having kids make you go from very hd to blah, i did so much to help and assist with the kids, i am well aware of hormone changes and i backed off from her sexually for a long time so as not to pressure her.

Anyway i have a story to tell which encompass the last four years so i had best get on with it.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Two kids.

Why does she feel attacked, imho it is because she thinks she has failed, more than once she has apologised for as she puts it "letting me down or being a disappointment" normally i answer with something like "nobody gets everything they want".


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Kput said:


> Why does she feel attacked, imho it is because she thinks she has failed, more than once she has apologised for as she puts it "letting me down or being a disappointment" normally i answer with something like "nobody gets everything they want".


So the comment to the effect that you don't want to be married to her was not a one-time incident. Because when she says "I'm sorry I've let you down" and you say "no one gets everything they want," what she is hearing is yes, she is a huge let down and you wish you weren't married to her because she isn't the sexy and exciting woman she was before children. In her situation, I would NEVER say "I need a good fking, get to it" because you had TOLD ME that I was a disappointment. At this point for her to act sexy would just be embarrassing for her.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

The "i need" incident was after we married but before the kids so she was in her hd phase.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Kput said:


> The "i need" incident was after we married but before the kids so she was in her hd phase.


Well I wish you luck. 

I'm out. I can see issues but I can't see understanding or a desire to actual fix things.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Thank you for your input.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Kput said:


> Two kids.
> 
> Why does she feel attacked, imho it is because she thinks she has failed, more than once she has apologised for as she puts it "letting me down or being a disappointment" normally i answer with something like "nobody gets everything they want".


Your response to her apology (more than once) confirms her internal dialogue “my husband thinks I am unlovable” 

Think about that a bit. What if the shoe were on the other foot? 

I am actually surprised she continues to be intimate with you at all. A lot of women would have already left, and taken the kids with her. Maybe her religious beliefs or upbringing keep her there.

If you actually want to fix this you have a long road, if it is even possible. She cant possibly trust you, cant be vulnerable with you. Extensive and prolonged counseling. Lot of time and money.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Kput said:


> Thank you for your input.


I do have one question so you said you snarky comment was 9 years ago....
Your youngest was 3 years old?
And she doesn't refuse sex.... Does she starfish you?


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Yes three years old.

Not starfish but not much apparent desire, maybe i was just spoilt by the earlier anything and everything sex.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Kput said:


> Not starfish but not much apparent desire, maybe i was just spoilt by the earlier anything and everything sex.


Or before her kids were really old enough to not be so much work you told her you wished you weren't married to her.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

I think this is an example of receiving in accordance with what we give. 

Way back when, some words of affirmation and kindness would have watered the marital garden. Some understanding and kindness for the woman who gave you children woukd have paid huge dividends. 

When she apologized for disappointing, some kindness and letting her know with words and deeds that she was NOT a disappointment would have strengthened the bond. Paid more dividends.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> I think this is an example of receiving in accordance with what we give.
> 
> Way back when, some words of affirmation and kindness would have watered the marital garden. Some understanding and kindness for the woman who gave you children woukd have paid huge dividends.
> 
> When she apologized for disappointing, some kindness and letting her know with words and deeds that she was NOT a disappointment would have strengthened the bond. Paid more dividends.


Yes I agree. This happened in my marriage. Right after my child was born things did fall off. I had pain then life. I never really realized for a while. Later as I exited the small child fog and got caught up with life. I really appreciated feeling loved and valued for more than just sex. My libido and adventure shot way up and has stayed up. We will never have to go through small children again but he'll be reaping the dividends for the rest of his life.

But more importantly, I feel loved and accepted which means we just picked out my Christmas present together a few days ago and I feel comfortable sharing with him. I feel comfortable initiating. If I felt like a failure I wouldn't be getting a new **** ring toy and I wouldn't be attacking him asking if his back is good enough today


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yes I agree. This happened in my marriage. Right after my child was born things did fall off. I had pain then life. I never really realized for a while. Later as I exited the small child fog and got caught up with life. I really appreciated feeling loved and valued for more than just sex. My libido and adventure shot way up and has stayed up. We will never have to go through small children again but he'll be reaping the dividends for the rest of his life.
> 
> But more importantly, I feel loved and accepted which means we just picked out my Christmas present together a few days ago and I feel comfortable sharing with him. I feel comfortable initiating. If I felt like a failure I wouldn't be getting a new **** ring toy and I wouldn't be attacking him asking if his back is good enough today


#goals 🥰 

I don't think the OP's marriage can't be fixed, but it would require effort from both.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Rus47 said:


> I think this is an example of receiving in accordance with what we give.
> 
> Way back when, some words of affirmation and kindness would have watered the marital garden. Some understanding and kindness for the woman who gave you children woukd have paid huge dividends.
> 
> When she apologized for disappointing, some kindness and letting her know with words and deeds that she was NOT a disappointment would have strengthened the bond. Paid more dividends.


This... ^^^^


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Kput said:


> Do i regularly make snarky comments, no i dont although it is not unknown.


What you are calling snarky is actually what is known as passive-aggressive and while you may think it’s just being snippy and getting one up on her, it’s actually quite toxic to relationships over the long term.

this is why I have been saying you need professional MC.

you are both just digging yourselves deeper holes and making things worse for each other as time goes on.

MC can help you develop more constructive and effective means of conflict resolution.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

What are your wife's reasons for the (apparent) drop in desire?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> I think this is an example of receiving in accordance with what we give.
> 
> Way back when, some words of affirmation and kindness would have watered the marital garden. Some understanding and kindness for the woman who gave you children woukd have paid huge dividends.
> 
> When she apologized for disappointing, some kindness and letting her know with words and deeds that she was NOT a disappointment would have strengthened the bond. Paid more dividends.


I agree with your statements here. 

No one is perfect. A strong apology stating that he understands her perspective and understands where he went wrong (in detail) would go a long way (at least it does for me). I'm not a fan of empty apologies. I want to know the person that is apologizing truly understands where they went wrong. 

I don't think this marriage is over and in my humble opinion, I don't find his past mistakes to be in the realm of unforgiveable.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I don't find his past mistakes to be in the realm of unforgiveable.


I think it really depends on the individual case and personality... I made similar mistakes and my wife never forgave me. I didn't understand then but I do understand now.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I think it really depends on the individual case and personality... I made similar mistakes and my wife never forgave me. I didn't understand then but I do understand now.


To each their own, I guess.

in my opinion, I find it exceptionally weak (man or woman) that can’t sit and talk. The avoidant types infuriate me. I’m not saying insult each other. I’m not saying be perfect either. If you say something insulting, apologize - just don’t run away. I would be disappointed if this was unforgivable.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I agree with your statements here.
> 
> No one is perfect. A strong apology stating that he understands her perspective and understands where he went wrong (in detail) would go a long way (at least it does for me). I'm not a fan of empty apologies. I want to know the person that is apologizing truly understands where they went wrong.
> 
> I don't think this marriage is over and in my humble opinion, I don't find his past mistakes to be in the realm of unforgiveable.


multiple years of feeling not good enough and having that reinforced isn't usually erased by an apology. IN addition OP didn't come here to learn his mistakes. He wants to figure out how to turn his wife who almost never turns him down for sex and doesn't give him starfish sex back into a carefree sexual creature. So fixing it looks daunting. Maybe he can divorce this one and marry your ex.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Kput said:


> Two kids.
> 
> Why does she feel attacked, imho it is because she thinks she has failed, more than once she has apologised for as she puts it "letting me down or being a disappointment" normally i answer with something like "nobody gets everything they want".


passive-aggressive.

This is toxic and will cause damage over time. 

She did not choose for her libido to tank, it is simply an effect of long term marriage and kids etc. 

She likely misses her previous sexy energy as well. So when you make these snide, passive aggressive comments, you are just kicking her while she down.

Imagine if you had ED/PE issues and she was making snide comments about you limp dck.

How loving and accommodating would that make you feel?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> multiple years of feeling not good enough and having that reinforced isn't usually erased by an apology. IN addition OP didn't come here to learn his mistakes. He wants to figure out how to turn his wife who almost never turns him down for sex and doesn't give him starfish sex back into a carefree sexual creature. So fixing it looks daunting. Maybe he can divorce this one and marry your ex.


You make excellent points here - I need to read this thread more closely.

I had to laugh about him divorcing and finding my ex! 😂

I immediately thought of my ex when you mentioned years of mis-treatment, and yet, I gave my ex every opportunity last year and at the start of this year to come clean. Understand my pain. Say sorry. Say sorry for very specific things and understand why they hurt me so bad.

that is what I meant by “the marriage is salvageable”. It would be specifically to me. A conscious effort to say sorry, understand and mean it. Then continue to rebuild trust from there.

I can understand if others cannot move past things like this. I get it. I personally can if the other really wants to put in the effort with me. Maybe he and his wife do not? If the OP does not want to work on those things and rebuild trust…. Then yeah… he’d be a good fit for my ex. 😂


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> You make excellent points here - I need to read this thread more closely.
> 
> I had to laugh about him divorcing and finding my ex! 😂
> 
> ...


Well the marriage is salvageable in the respect that with a 12 year old and a 15 year old she probably isn't going anywhere. But how do you bridge the divide? 

I think he needs to read up on Walk-A-Way wife. If and when that happens he'll be here going I don't know what happened we were happy. Sure of course she had her faults but I wasn't going anywhere. She told me she loved me and we had sex so I thought everything was fine. I mean sure she would indicate that she realized I didn't find her good enough. Sure she'd occasionally say stuff like if I"m so bad why did you marry me. But you know I got my licks in. I didn't take that ****. I'd just tell her I didn't marry YOU I married someone not like you a wonderful woman (specifically implying she wasn't wonderful or sexy anymore). Ha Ha. But you know I was a good husband and father. I showed up and stuff. All that emotional **** and love and acceptance **** is just for the movies. If my life is going to be a movie than I want it to be a porn movie........

Ok so I put a bunch of stuff in there. But I can totally see this is how the wife might see things. But what do I know I'm just a dumb woman.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well the marriage is salvageable in the respect that with a 12 year old and a 15 year old she probably isn't going anywhere. But how do you bridge the divide?
> 
> I think he needs to read up on Walk-A-Way wife. If and when that happens he'll be here going I don't know what happened we were happy. Sure of course she had her faults but I wasn't going anywhere. She told me she loved me and we had sex so I thought everything was fine. I mean sure she would indicate that she realized I didn't find her good enough. Sure she'd occasionally say stuff like if I"m so bad why did you marry me. But you know I got my licks in. I didn't take that **. I'd just tell her I didn't marry YOU I married someone not like you a wonderful woman (specifically implying she wasn't wonderful or sexy anymore). Ha Ha. But you know I was a good husband and father. I showed up and stuff. All that emotional ** and love and acceptance **** is just for the movies. If my life is going to be a movie than I want it to be a porn movie........
> 
> Ok so I put a bunch of stuff in there. But I can totally see this is how the wife might see things. But what do I know I'm just a dumb woman.


That is a strong possibility.

it could be avoided though with communication. At the very least, he would know why she would choose to leave. It would be 10 times better than what I got. Silence.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well the marriage is salvageable in the respect that with a 12 year old and a 15 year old she probably isn't going anywhere. But how do you bridge the divide?
> 
> I think he needs to read up on Walk-A-Way wife. If and when that happens he'll be here going I don't know what happened we were happy. Sure of course she had her faults but I wasn't going anywhere. She told me she loved me and we had sex so I thought everything was fine. I mean sure she would indicate that she realized I didn't find her good enough. Sure she'd occasionally say stuff like if I"m so bad why did you marry me. But you know I got my licks in. I didn't take that **. I'd just tell her I didn't marry YOU I married someone not like you a wonderful woman (specifically implying she wasn't wonderful or sexy anymore). Ha Ha. But you know I was a good husband and father. I showed up and stuff. All that emotional ** and love and acceptance **** is just for the movies. If my life is going to be a movie than I want it to be a porn movie........
> 
> Ok so I put a bunch of stuff in there. But I can totally see this is how the wife might see things. But what do I know I'm just a dumb woman.


Ok that’s a pretty good description of what she’s been receiving but it sounds like she’s passive-aggressive and has gotten her barbs in on him as well. 

how many times has she said, “ oh you want me to act like some horny chick at a bachelorette party? What are you some kind of Chunkindale with your gut flopping around over your peter?” Or “you are wanting to get down tonight after you wouldn’t help me clip the dingleberries out of the cat’s butt so I had to chase it around the house and wrestle with it and all clawed up myself?” Or “Ok fine, if you’re that horny let’s just get it on and then see if you have the energy to patch the holes in the sidewalk that I’ve been telling you about all summer!”

these snide digs are going both ways and as I said above, they are toxic to the relationship whether they are coming from either of them.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Ok that’s a pretty good description of what she’s been receiving but it sounds like she’s passive-aggressive and has gotten her barbs in on him as well.
> 
> how many times has she said, “ oh you want me to act like some horny chick at a bachelorette party? What are you some kind of Chunkindale with your gut flopping around over your peter?” Or “you are wanting to get down tonight after you wouldn’t help me clip the dingleberries out of the cat’s butt so I had to chase it around the house and wrestle with it and all clawed up myself?” Or “Ok fine, if you’re that horny let’s just get it on and then see if you have the energy to patch the holes in the sidewalk that I’ve been telling you about all summer!”
> 
> these snide digs are going both ways and as I said above, they are toxic to the relationship whether they are coming from either of them.


And where are you finding these gems about Chunkindale?

OP came posting. OP hasn't answered very many questions. The comment he has said was what he admitted to...we all know that means there are more.

But I agree digs and mean comments are toxic to a relationship and lowers sex drive as well (at least for most women).


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Ok that’s a pretty good description of what she’s been receiving but it sounds like she’s passive-aggressive and has gotten her barbs in on him as well.
> 
> how many times has she said, “ oh you want me to act like some horny chick at a bachelorette party? What are you some kind of Chunkindale with your gut flopping around over your peter?” Or “you are wanting to get down tonight after you wouldn’t help me clip the dingleberries out of the cat’s butt so I had to chase it around the house and wrestle with it and all clawed up myself?” Or “Ok fine, if you’re that horny let’s just get it on and then see if you have the energy to patch the holes in the sidewalk that I’ve been telling you about all summer!”
> 
> these snide digs are going both ways and as I said above, they are toxic to the relationship whether they are coming from either of them.


I like the cat dingle berries comment. That wouldn't be a problem. Bungie cords, tie wraps, belt sander would be pretty quick. 

Patching sidewalk is a quick call to Contractor. Write check, done and done.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣, yeah, nothing helpful, but trying a little humor.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> And where are you finding these gems about Chunkindale?
> 
> OP came posting. OP hasn't answered very many questions. The comment he has said was what he admitted to...we all know that means there are more.
> 
> But I agree digs and mean comments are toxic to a relationship and lowers sex drive as well (at least for most women).


I too am going off of what he is quoting her saying.

if you think she is meekly saying those things as a broken woman with a tear of surrender in her eye, I have some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you.

Those are also snide and passive aggressive digs from her as well. 

If they want to live happily ever after, both of them are going to have to drop the digs and learn some constructive problem resolution skills.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I too am going off of what he is quoting her saying.
> 
> if you think she is meekly saying those things as a broken woman with a tear of surrender in her eye, I have some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you.
> 
> ...


There seems to be a difference though doesn't there?
Her remarks are passive aggressive indicating nothing she ever does is good enough and that she knows he doesn't find her attractive anymore that is insulting directed at herself.

His are you aren't good enough, I don't find you attractive anymore also directed at her.

So I agree neither of these comments are helpful. I disagree with your categorization of what she might be saying. Cause he hasn't given any indication that she regularly insults him about personal qualities.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Cause he hasn't given any indication that she regularly insults him about personal qualities.


I think he would have said if she were insulting him. He's been pretty generous with his criticism of her behavior. I don't understand how her insulting herself is attacking him, that one baffled me too. 🤷‍♀️ Feels like a reach.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I think he would have said if she were insulting him. He's been pretty generous with his criticism of her behavior. I don't understand how her insulting herself is attacking him, that one baffled me too. 🤷‍♀️ Feels like a reach.


but it is passive aggressive. Instead of talking about how she feels and what has changed her libido she's just saying I understand you don't like me in a passive aggressive way. It would be more helpful if she had said...... I don't walk through the door and announce I want to **** anymore because.....

Though some people have trouble assessing their own feelings they just know what they know but they don't know the why. I guess that's why so many people have therapists.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> but it is passive aggressive. Instead of talking about how she feels and what has changed her libido she's just saying I understand you don't like me in a passive aggressive way. It would be more helpful if she had said...... I don't walk through the door and announce I want to **** anymore because.....
> 
> Though some people have trouble assessing their own feelings they just know what they know but they don't know the why. I guess that's why so many people have therapists.


Honestly, it sounds to me like something I would say because I want him to say "No, I love you, you're not awful" all of that.  😳 You're correct, that's useless and passive aggressive and not a healthy way to communicate. The right thing would be for her to sit him down and say, "Listen, it's clear you're not into me or this marriage. Let's plan what to do about that, because I'm tired of being with someone who holds me in such contempt." Or for him to say, "Look, you changed as you aged and I don't want you any more. Let's end this thing so we can both be happy." Instead they're just making little digs, her at herself and him at her. She's feeling worse and worse and he's just disgusted with her. 

Therapy would really help with that.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> but it is passive aggressive. Instead of talking about how she feels and what has changed her libido she's just saying I understand you don't like me in a passive aggressive way. It would be more helpful if she had said...... I don't walk through the door and announce I want to **** anymore because.....
> 
> Though some people have trouble assessing their own feelings they just know what they know but they don't know the why. I guess that's why so many people have therapists.


I understand what you are saying and I don’t think you are wrong.

However from the male POV, if she rejects him sexually or just begrudgingly lays there and basically lets him use her body to masturbate with to shut him up - a man will see that as her not being attracted to him and not desiring him. 

So he also also feels undesired and unwanted by her.

But instead of them articulating their feelings and concerns and wants and needs in a constructive fashion, they are both taking jabs at each other and getting passive aggressive digs on each other.

The more this continues, the wider the chasm between them and the more resentment grows between them.

And the more emotionally distanced and resentment they feel towards each other, the sharper the jabs between them.

This is why I think they need MC.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I understand what you are saying and I don’t think you are wrong.
> 
> However from the male POV, if she rejects him sexually or just begrudgingly lays there and basically lets him use her body to masturbate with to shut him up - a man will see that as her not being attracted to him and not desiring him.
> 
> ...


He has said specifically she doesn't reject him and it isn't starfish sex. So again straw argument


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> He has said specifically she doesn't reject him and it isn't starfish sex. So again straw argument


perhaps but my point is still likely valid. Men give and receive love through their sexuality and as such often use it as kind of a de facto barometer to gauge their partner’s love and desire for them.

That may not always be accurate or an appropriate metric, but it happens nonetheless.

If the sex is very lackluster and a “chore” (a term that he has used) it’s hard for a man to not see his partner’s feelings for him lackluster and nominal as well.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> He has said specifically she doesn't reject him and it isn't starfish sex. So again straw argument


Despite his telling her 9 years ago that he "married a wonderful outgoing sexy woman, not you." That's a crystal clear message, and if she's been saying "I'm sorry I disappointed you" and he's reinforced her belief that she's unattractive to him, it's hard for me to understand how she can possibly even feign enthusiasm for sex with him.

I honestly don't get why he stayed.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't think you can "forget" a comment like that very quickly, even if it happened 9 years ago. My wife made a comment about me in 1994. A very bad comment. I haven't forgotten about it and I never will.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> He has said specifically she doesn't reject him and it isn't starfish sex. So again straw argument


This is a fair point - but I think both of them need to show enthusiasm for each other’s love languages.

for example, let’s say my partner’s #1 love language is quality time. If I schedule multiple hours every day to make sure I spend that “quality“ time with her and never turn her down for it, but still just kinda going through the motions, it still isn’t all that great for her. More effort is required. I would need to show her that due to my love for her, I’m excited and enthusiastic to spend that time with her - and for me personally, that is exactly the way I am when I love.
In return, I would expect my partner to be enthusiastic with me in bed and not just going through the motions. Sure, not getting turned down is nice and all, but damn… it’s obvious when the other person doesn’t want to be there. I made it clear under no circumstances other than medical or physical issues would I return to the dead bedroom my exwife shoved me in for 16 years. That turned into her making sure to get it in 4 times a week. Non-enthusiastically. She clearly did not want to be there for the last 4 months of our relationship.

I mean, at the end of the day, either the OP and his wife love each other and agree that putting in the work to rekindle their love is worth the effort or it isn’t. Doesn’t matter if it is sex or another one of the love languages. Both men and women can easily sense when the other doesn’t want to be there and is just going through the motions.

I am wondering if the OP is also going through the motions when it comes to enthusiastically showing love to his wife in the way that she NEEDS it. That is vital. Regardless, if one person expresses love the way the other needs but that person doesn’t reciprocate, then it won’t work.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

*


Kput said:



....she saw me looking and said what have I done wrong now I replied nothing really I just remember you wearing stockings and what a turn on it was but just get rid of them if you want to, and that's when she said "if I am so awful why did you Marry me etc.

Click to expand...

*"What have I done wrong *now*?" speaks volumes. Your continued disapproval and negativity toward her SHINES through in every post. It's clear you're looking for a sex kitten and she's not it and will never be it. She may have been back when she was young and carefree, but LIFE happens in the meantime.

Gosh I'm so sad that you're so jealous of your buddy who's getting himself some strange on the side. If you're so damned unhappy and so damned deprived, why are you still there?


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> No. This is a false equivalency to absolve the husband of any responsibility. No one said that the wife can do whatever they want and the husband has to be "ok with it." Likewise, the wife should not have to accept whatever abuse the man feels like doling out because he is angry with her. Life is a process and people change, and what he said was that if she couldn't be 25 and childless he didn't want her. Neither of them are blameless here. That the H wasn't getting what he needed from the marriage justifies him being angry and vocal about it, but it no more justifies cruelty than anything he did to her would justify HER cruelty.


BS! we wants the sexual woman back she was when they met.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Kput said:


> Some posters have suggested that my w my quit the marriage when the kids are older, I have very good reason to think otherwise indeed she worries far more that I will.
> 
> I hope people don't get the impression that we are constantly in conflict that is far from the case however the negative sexual tension sometimes bubbles to the surface.


She seems very self critical. Many women are their own worse enemies.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> "What have I done wrong *now*?" speaks volumes. Your continued disapproval and negativity toward her SHINES through in every post. It's clear you're looking for a sex kitten and she's not it and will never be it. She may have been back when she was young and carefree, but LIFE happens in the meantime.
> 
> Gosh I'm so sad that you're so jealous of your buddy who's getting himself some strange on the side. If you're so damned unhappy and so damned deprived, why are you still there?


Many women are so self critical that they read into any comment as being critical. Any guy remembers when they said something to their wife and she took it completely out of context to what was actually said. I have told my wife several times to quit trying to read into something I said, then inferring I said something critical that was in no way what was said. Some of those "Where the hell did that come from?!" moments.

Go from...I don't like peas. And she inferred, from that...I think her cooking suxs and she has bad taste and is stupid because she likes peas.🤨 WTAF!

I'm sure most all guys have had their SO go completely off the freaking rails in left field like the example above.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Livvie said:


> You don't know this.
> 
> A lot of women with teenagers are more interested in their husbands than this woman is, of the same age and of course with responsibilities. She didn't become what she is because of "age" and "responsibilities" she became what she is because it's who SHE is.
> 
> Not every middle aged woman with a family is lackluster towards her marriage. Nope.


Exactly my wife is ready for teen son to go to college so we do not have to limit our time to the bedroom. Or if we go to the lake and decide to pull down to a back woods primitive camping spot for a trust in the truck or on the tailgate, we can as we will not have a tag along.


----------



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Your wife has gone through The Great Decline. It's very normal (although not universal) and to be expected. It is so common that it must be biological. It's rarely overcome.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Or before her kids were really old enough to not be so much work you told her you wished you weren't married to her.


You are extrapolating. She said that, not him. You are twisting it around. He basically said she was not acting like the woman he married.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> Many women are so self critical that they read into any comment as being critical. Any guy remembers when they said something to their wife and she took it completely out of context to what was actually said. I have told my wife several times to quit trying to read into something I said, then inferring I said something critical that was in no way what was said. Some of those "Where the hell did that come from?!" moments.
> 
> Go from...I don't like peas. And she inferred, from that...I think her cooking suxs and she has bad taste and is stupid because she likes peas. WTAF!
> 
> I'm sure most all guys have had their SO go completely off the freaking rails in left field like the example above.


"I have neither the interest, nor the inclination, to compete with your internal dialogue."

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> Many women are so self critical that they read into any comment as being critical. Any guy remembers when they said something to their wife and she took it completely out of context to what was actually said. I have told my wife several times to quit trying to read into something I said, then inferring I said something critical that was in no way what was said. Some of those "Where the hell did that come from?!" moments.
> 
> Go from...I don't like peas. And she inferred, from that...I think her cooking suxs and she has bad taste and is stupid because she likes peas.🤨 WTAF!
> 
> I'm sure most all guys have had their SO go completely off the freaking rails in left field like the example above.


Not just women who do this. Any person with a certain type of personality dysfunction does this. I was in a relationship with a (50 year old) man who did stuff like this. Key word WAS.

It's most unbecoming.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Not just women who do this. Any person with a certain type of personality dysfunction does this. I was in a relationship with a (50 year old) man who did stuff like this. Key word WAS.
> 
> It's most unbecoming.


My wife was for years. She was PaB Centerfold material but she did not see that herself. She had abusive dad that constantly said she was not good enough. She was a strait A student, star player on girls HS Softball team. If table was not exactly how he wanted it, he would dump everything in the floor and her and mom had to recook dinner after they cleaned up the mess.

Luckily he took himself out before I had to. Then she married HS BF at 17 to escape. He was a serial cheater who constantly degraded her and dissed her on everything. I met her 4 mo after she left and filed divorce.

Took me a few years to turn her around. She did not see herself as beautiful. When she was in HS she was heavier, CSA. She treated everyone like they were worth something. One of the things that attracted me also, here was this georgeous woman that was in no way stuck up!

Took a few years to turn her around after being beat down by dad and Ex. for so many years. Now she will accept a compliment and is so excited that she turns me on just by walking by me or looking at me.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

So the answer is, to bad,so sad,suck it up.

One thing I am sure of is that if I had an ED or PE issue I would be searching high and low for a solution.

I have been doing a lot of soul searching to explore if it was me that caused this issue all those years ago and I cannot see it.


----------



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Kput said:


> So the answer is, to bad,so sad,suck it up.
> 
> One thing I am sure of is that if I had an ED or PE issue I would be searching high and low for a solution.
> 
> I have been doing a lot of soul searching to explore if it was me that caused this issue all those years ago and I cannot see it.


I don't think anyone says you _caused_ this.

I think the general thinking is that your wife would be more motivated to find and fix this with you if you adjusted your approach to her and this issue. What's the saying? You draw more flies with honey than ****? Start providing honey and keep the **** to yourself.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

I have tried nice sure did not get me anywhere maybe showing indifference may work but probably not. I know from a conversation with my wife's sister that my w is worried that I may leave however unlikely that is


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Kput said:


> I have tried nice sure did not get me anywhere maybe showing indifference may work but probably not. I know from a conversation with my wife's sister that my w is worried that I may leave however unlikely that is


Based on what you’ve said to her, I’m sure she does. You’ve told her you want to; you may not have used those words, but that’s what she heard. Indifference will not make your marriage better, IMO.


----------



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Kput said:


> I have tried nice sure did not get me anywhere maybe showing indifference may work but probably not. I know from a conversation with my wife's sister that my w is worried that I may leave however unlikely that is


If you don't want to do more than "try to be nice" then revert to your earlier conclusion. "_So the answer is, to bad,so sad,suck it up. _"


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Tmom, you may be right, I am going to stop initiating sex and see what the outcome is. Being the only one that wants it is somewhat demeaning.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

007,try to be nice was a generic expression covering a positive attitude towards her. Thing is as I said we are not in constant conflict and do a lot together such as.rock gigs, out at bars both together and with friends, indeed my w is in conflict with my d more than me.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Kput said:


> Tmom, you may be right, I am going to stop initiating sex and see what the outcome is. Being the only one that wants it is somewhat demeaning.


You may not be the only one who wants it. I can’t blame her for not initiating. She doesn’t think you find her attractive. She doesn’t think you want her, any surprise she doesn’t ask?


----------



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Kput said:


> 007,try to be nice was a generic expression covering a positive attitude towards her. Thing is as I said we are not in constant conflict and do a lot together such as.rock gigs, out at bars both together and with friends, indeed my w is in conflict with my d more than me.


I wasn’t meaning to be harsh. The point is that if you don’t change some key points of interaction to help her, then you have no alternatives left to move closer to what you need (in my opinion).


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Tmom, as I always initiatiate it must be obvious that I want her


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You may not be the only one who wants it. I can’t blame her for not initiating. She doesn’t think you find her attractive. She doesn’t think you want her, any surprise she doesn’t ask?


I have to agree with Kput. 

Men don't initiate sex unless there is some level of attraction there.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Kput said:


> Tmom, as I always initiatiate it must be obvious that I want her


I understand why you think that. It's not obvious, because of the things you say to her. She believes that you are tolerating her and that you wish you weren't married to her. She is currently your only option for sex. She sees herself as a consolation prize, just something you're stuck with for now.


----------



## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Men marry hot, sexy, sexually engaged women thinking they will never change.
> 
> Women marry men thinking the men will change with them and that sexuality won’t matter as much to the men after children and years and years of marriage.
> 
> Both are mistaken.


I normally agree with pretty much all of your advice. You are right about 99% of the time. This comment is 50% correct. I agree men think women will always be as sexual as when the relationship first started. I disagree that women marry men thinking sex won't matter as much later on in the marriage. Women are not aware, in their 20's, that their sex drive may take a nose dive later on in life. I will say however that men put a LOT of focus on sex as THE issue and feel that if sex has diminished THAT is THE problem. Usually a declining sex life is a SYMPTOM of the problem. At least for women. It was in my case. My husband was not meeting my emotional needs and my desire plummeted. Unfortunately I probably wasn't the best at expressing those needs. Now that he is meeting those needs, he's getting LOTS of sex. He can't keep up with the amount I want. He now understands the TRUE meaning of "happy wife happy life." 
Guys, if you aren't getting sex, look at yourselves and if you are meeting your wife's needs. Most women's sexual desire is tied to emotional fulfillment. Many men will say, I do this for her, I do that for her, and my husband would have said the exact same thing. But after lots of talking he realizes he was doing what HE felt I wanted/needed, not what I actually wanted/needed from him to feel wanted and appreciated. Once she feels like the most important, most beautiful woman in the world, she will probably do the same for you.


----------



## BoSlander (5 mo ago)

@Kput It's easy, you gained a mother and lost a wife.

One of the things that hit men in the face too late and are never warned about by the women in his family. We're never told why our wives are gone, you're just supposed to "deal with it" and carry on as if there's anything remotely normal about it.

As I always say: life is about making informed decisions and if men were to be told this could happen to them, they would most likely be 675 times more attentive when vetting any future wives.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lovingwife71 said:


> I normally agree with pretty much all of your advice. You are right about 99% of the time. This comment is 50% correct. I agree men think women will always be as sexual as when the relationship first started. I disagree that women marry men thinking sex won't matter as much later on in the marriage. Women are not aware, in their 20's, that their sex drive may take a nose dive later on in life. I will say however that men put a LOT of focus on sex as THE issue and feel that if sex has diminished THAT is THE problem. Usually a declining sex life is a SYMPTOM of the problem. At least for women. It was in my case. My husband was not meeting my emotional needs and my desire plummeted. Unfortunately I probably wasn't the best at expressing those needs. Now that he is meeting those needs, he's getting LOTS of sex. He can't keep up with the amount I want. He now understands the TRUE meaning of "happy wife happy life."
> Guys, if you aren't getting sex, look at yourselves and if you are meeting your wife's needs. Most women's sexual desire is tied to emotional fulfillment. Many men will say, I do this for her, I do that for her, and my husband would have said the exact same thing. But after lots of talking he realizes he was doing what HE felt I wanted/needed, not what I actually wanted/needed from him to feel wanted and appreciated. Once she feels like the most important, most beautiful woman in the world, she will probably do the same for you.


I agree that women are likely assuming that things will remain hot and heavy as well. I do not think women intentionally go into a relationship thinking that they will be hot and heavy in the beginning and then turn off the spigot later on. 

What I was saying is I think many will think that since their libido is dropping and that sex is becoming less and less of a priority in their lives, that they often think that their men's priority will, or at least should, change with theirs. 

Take a little time and go read some of the posts and threads on the Low Libido forum on Reddit and you will quickly see what I mean. 

Many of those women there are down right hostile and bitter that their husbands still want to maintain an active sex life now that there are kids to chase and bills to pay and cats to get to the vet. They are not just overworked and stressed that now they have other responsibilities and sex and romance have taken a backseat to other priorities in their own lives. They are ANGRY that their husband's libido has not fallen off the charts as well. 

Now I get that if a guy is a do-nuth'n and sits and drinks beer and watches tv or plays video games all day and does nothing to help with the house and kids and let's his wife drown in daily tasks while he does nothing that that will effect her connection to him, but I am not talking about choreplay and structural relationship issues. 

I'm talking about people being embittered that their husband's drive has not decreased with theirs and he is still wanting an active sex life.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

LW71 Be nice if my wife explained what she wants because she does not say and I am not a mind reader.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Bo, you may well be right but I had an eight year honeymoon/nre period before the kids and never saw this coming.


----------



## BoSlander (5 mo ago)

Kput said:


> Bo, you may well be right but I had an eight year honeymoon/nre period before the kids and never saw this coming.


Yes, that was bait-n-switch then.

I think the legal environment is so favorable to mothers that they are literally enticed to essentially give up on the romantic relationship.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> What I was saying is I think many will think that since their libido is dropping and that sex is becoming less and less of a priority in their lives, that they often think that their men's priority will, or at least should, change with theirs.
> 
> 
> I'm talking about people being embittered that their husband's drive has not decreased with theirs and he is still wanting an active sex life.


I have to share a personal anecdote of my wife's early in our marriage involving her sister and BIL.

My wife's was very close with her sister and BIL when we first got together. About the time we got engaged, her sister and BIL had their first child. 

They had been married several years before kids and apparently had a very robust sex life. 

Their first child came along as we were getting engaged and wedding planning and he was a crawler at the time we got married. 

This was a very weird and dysfunctional and even inappropriate dynamic taking place between my wife and them but both th sister and BIL were using my wife as their sounding board and go-between regarding their sexual problems upon the arrival of their child. 

My wife was basically acting as their go-between and defacto sex therapist. Her main emphasis was that the BIL needed to shut up, suck it up and start changing more diapers. She literally told him that he should be thankful for the sex that he had and that now they were parents and that he needed to keep it in his pants and not bug her about it anymore and that now he needed to be a father and not a lover. 

This raised several red flags for me in many different ways. The first was she needed to get the hell out of their marriage and especially out of their bedroom!! That was some pretty sick and twisted sht IMHO and once I caught on that they were each using her as their sounding board and therapist I told her she needed to knock it off and that if she did not put the kabosh on it and tell them that mediating their sex life was not her role, I would tell them in no uncertain terms myself to keep their private matters to themselves or get a read goddam therapist. 

The other red flag it raised for me was that it showed me that while she may have been a hottie pottattie with me at that time, it also showed me that she had some underlying attitudes and beliefs towards sexuality and parenthood that would need to be addressed if and when we had kids. 

So even before we were married, I was able to state in no uncertain terms that even if we were to have children, my expectations were that even though I realized there would be changes, we would still continue to have a marital love and sex life regardless if their were young children in the house or not. 

Now does that mean we were swinging from the chandeliers when we had little kids in diapers? No, absolutely not. And we did have the usual bumps in the road and things we each needed to compromise on. But I was able to state clearly that a sexless, platonic marriage following the arrival of children would not be accepted or tolerated. 

My point to all of this was she did men to pack their sexual needs away in a chest in the attic after the arrival of children and that they should understand and be ok with that transformation in their lives. There were times she was miffed that I did not capitulate and become a Mr Mommy (like her BIL ultimately did. That pathetic sack of sht probably hasn't had sex in over 20 years) But we are still married and were able to raise our kids to legal adulthood without too many pots and pans ever flying. 

And there was even a period once they got to school age that we had a great and even exceptional sex life for many years. 

But had I let her fall into that fallacy that people should shelve their sexuality once they have kids, we would have either divorced a long time ago and broken up the home when the kids were little, or I would be one of these whining simps that they haven't had any sexual contact in years and years.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> What I've said appears to have fallen on deaf ears.
> 
> I don't care if what he said was positive or negative reinforcement.
> 
> ...


There are a lot of problems with what is trying to be expressed and what is being heard.

The wife was reaching out and being vulnerable by her statement and Kput's response to that vulnerability was to take the opportunity to stab her.

He was probably very frustrated but he did not hear her vulnerability and he did worse than fumble the ball. He intentionally injured his teammate.

You are correct about changing what was actually said though I understand the feelings behind it.

I've had some firm conversations with Mrs. C over the years and we have both occasionally fell short but we have both regretted it and asked and given forgiveness for treating each other harshly.

Hopefully, OP has asked for forgiveness for intentionally hurting his wife when she was vulnerable with him.

Hindsight.... He could have said almost exactly what he did by expressing how he was feeling without hitting her over the head (so to speak) with a Louisville slugger.

OP's wife is feeling a certain way and he is as well.

Since he is here, I would advise him to try to understand how she is feeling while trying to communicate how he is.

Some marriage communication books might be helpful.

I'm sure this has moved on but I'm just catching up.🙂


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Kput said:


> LW71 Be nice if my wife explained what she wants because she does not say and I am not a mind reader.


I was going to respond to @Lovingwife71 but since you said this, I will respond to you. 

Every woman on the planet knew exactly what Lovingwife71 said about needing her emotional needs met before she could function sexually. 

But every male on the planet is left scratching their head wondering how exactly one meets someone's needs and even what the term emotional needs even mean. 

This is where men and women speak two different languages. 

I am willing to be the farm your wife has tried many ways to tell you what her needs are. But she might as well having been saying marufargmeon takarrowbline oofermattickscope for all that you actually understood. Men and women do not speak the same emotional language. 

Men's emotional language is sexuality and physical tasks. 

Women's emotional language is....... well I guess I still don't really know. But I know it is different from ours. 

But this is why I keep harping on getting professional marriage counseling/therapy here. You likely need a professional interpretor that help interpret her emotional needs that you can then apply to sexuality and whatever physical tasks that need done around the house. 

She has been telling you. You just haven't been able to interpret and apply it yet.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Not bait and switch but baby and switch, the fact that I don't think it was a conscious decision on her part hardly helps.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Kput said:


> Two kids.
> 
> Why does she feel attacked, imho it is because she thinks she has failed, more than once she has apologised for as she puts it "letting me down or being a disappointment" normally i answer with something like "nobody gets everything they want".


Dude, your wife is really being vulnerable with you and you aren't recognizing it.

If Mrs C said that to me, she would be in my arms before she knew it and I would leave her with no doubts about my love and commitment to her.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> There are a lot of problems with what is trying to be expressed and what is being heard.
> 
> The wife was reaching out and being vulnerable by her statement and Kput's response to that vulnerability was to take the opportunity to stab her.
> 
> ...


Just in case it gets lots in your catching up.
No he never apologized. 
He gets sex is almost never turned down, it isn't starfish sex but he feeeeells she's not into it even though she says she is.
He is unhappy that she's not as hot an heavy as she was before kids and doesn't initiate.
His wife has expressed to a friend she's worried that he'll leave her.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BoSlander said:


> Yes, that was bait-n-switch then.
> 
> I think the legal environment is so favorable to mothers that they are literally enticed to essentially give up on the romantic relationship.


People don't bait and switch for 8 years. 

A skilled gold digger off the street might be able to find some nerdy physics or engineering major that's never had anyone touch his pee pee before and get him to marry her and house her after giving him a BJ or two, but being married and having an active sex life for 8 years is not some grand scheme so she can pull the rug out once baby comes. 

This was not a sinister plot. This was a change of conditions and environment and part of life changes as we age and begin bearing offspring etc.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Kput said:


> Not bait and switch but baby and switch, the fact that I don't think it was a conscious decision on her part hardly helps.


Have you heard anything people have been telling you?


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Just in case it gets lots in your catching up.
> No he never apologized.
> He gets sex is almost never turned down, it isn't starfish sex but he feeeeells she's not into it even though she says she is.
> He is unhappy that she's not as hot an heavy as she was before kids and doesn't initiate.
> His wife has expressed to a friend she's worried that he'll leave her.


I’m not getting the impression he thinks he has any responsibility for the problems in his marriage. It’s all her fault and for her to fix. Alone. 🤷‍♀️


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Hmm. @Kput , I am thinking you have it pretty damn good.

Mrs. C and I were insane at the start and had to work extra hard at intimacy with curious kiddos running around. LoL!

We picked back up after the youngest was out of the house and through everything we supported each other.

I'm really not sensing that you have near the support for your wife that I have for mine.

I'm all about masculine energy and I'm a no nonsense man that requires things from my woman.

I also give at least as good or better than I require.

I think you need to work a bit more on your relationship dynamics and really learn better communication and empathy.

I don't care if you believe the bible but this is true.

"A man should live with his wife with understanding. With consideration for her since she is the weaker vessel."

I can literally get my wife burning with just a look after 31 years together. I know what I'm talking about and I'm proving it every day.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Old shirt, I hear and understand


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Tmom, I realise and have always acknowledged my part in the problems but it is not me who changed.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Kput said:


> Tmom, I realise and have always acknowledged my part in the problems but it is not me who changed.


Yeah, I'm out. If you don't think you have a part in this and that you have no role in making your marriage better then there is nothing for me to say.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Kput said:


> Tmom, I realise and have always acknowledged my part in the problems but it is not me who changed.


Yup. I agree. You need to change and grow. All living things do. Maybe you're more of a zombie than you realize?


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Do you really think I have not tried to solve this conundrum, I have heard "I don't know" more times than I care to remember. I suspect that my w does know but thinks I will be upset with the answer, I would rather she would just be straight with me.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Tmom, thank you for your input


----------



## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> There are a lot of problems with what is trying to be expressed and what is being heard.
> 
> The wife was reaching out and being vulnerable by her statement and Kput's response to that vulnerability was to take the opportunity to stab her.
> 
> ...





Kput said:


> Do you really think I have not tried to solve this conundrum, I have heard "I don't know" more times than I care to remember. I suspect that my w does know but thinks I will be upset with the answer, I would rather she would just be straight with me.


This highlights my first piece of advice to anyone in this situation. You and your wife are TEAMMATES. A relationship isn't a wife vs husband situation. it's supposed to be wife+husband against all the problems.

You're insisting you haven't changed and that it's all her fault that you haven't got the sex life you used to have anymore. That is a her vs you description. And honestly, you've aged, you've had kids, your lives have likely changed in a number of other ways. If you think you haven't changed and nothing is your fault, you're very blind. You can't get back what you had before kids. You have to build something new. And you have to build it TOGETHER as a TEAM.

You can't just tell your wife the lack of sex is a problem and she's got to fix it. That will never make her feel sexy! You need to change the dynamic so that it's you + your wife against the world again. Rebuild your team. It sounds like she's lost a lot of trust in you, so it's going to be hard work on your part to get that foundation back. This is why people are suggesting professionals.

And yeah, a woman who tells you she 'doesn't know' is either trying not to hurt your feelings, or trying to avoid hurting her own by examining the issue too closely.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Kput said:


> Do you really think I have not tried to solve this conundrum, I have heard "I don't know" more times than I care to remember. I suspect that my w does know but thinks I will be upset with the answer, I would rather she would just be straight with me.


There may be some truth to this. 

If you are asking her how she can become a 25 year old single woman without kids again - she is being sincere in that she does not know how to do that. 

And she can like sense that what you really want is a 25 year old single woman without kids and so no answer that you give will be adequate for you. 

She can be many things and she can do many things, but being a young, 20 year old single woman without kids is not one of them. 

Women are very intuitive and she likely knows that you are dissatisfied and knows that there is truly nothing that she can do that will make you completely satisfied. She can not become another person. 

What this all boils down to is that you want to hook up with someone that is fresh and new and hot for you and to experience that rush of NRE again. 

You're simply not going to be able to do that with her again. That ship has sailed. 

You're options are to cheat or negotiate some form of open marriage where you get with someone else with or without her approval. 

Divorce and get back on the dating market. 

Or get professional counseling/therapy to help you develop better coping skills and better communication skills to where you two can communicate more effectively and learn to collaborate more effectively where you do not feel like you are dying on the inside and where she does not feel so judged and so pressured to be something that she can no longer be.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Kput said:


> Old shirt, I hear and understand


I don't think you actually do. 

You can read what we're saying and understand the vocabulary, but I don't think you truly "get it."


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Kput said:


> Tmom, I realise and have always acknowledged my part in the problems but it is not me who changed.


You have changed,,, just not as much as she has and not in exactly the same manners and not to the same degree. 

But let's swap out the word 'changed' for the word 'grown.' 

As we go through our life stages and as we age, we also need to grow and mature and develop as human beings. 

If we don't change, we don't grow or develop or mature either. 

Bearing and raising offspring is probably literally the most profoundly life changing event that will occur in our entire lifespan. 

If you think that 40something year old mother that has been married for 20 years is going to be like the 22 year old that you hooked up with,,,,, you're simply not grounded in reality.


----------



## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> This highlights my first piece of advice to anyone in this situation. You and your wife are TEAMMATES. A relationship isn't a wife vs husband situation. it's supposed to be wife+husband against all the problems.
> 
> You're insisting you haven't changed and that it's all her fault that you haven't got the sex life you used to have anymore. That is a her vs you description. And honestly, you've aged, you've had kids, your lives have likely changed in a number of other ways. If you think you haven't changed and nothing is your fault, you're very blind. You can't get back what you had before kids. You have to build something new. And you have to build it TOGETHER as a TEAM.
> 
> ...


So well said. I hope this resonates with you OP, it applies so well to the dynamics you've described between you and your wife.

You've changed, trust me. The only time people don't change is when they're dead.

You're too close to your own self to see what role you've played, and what role you CAN play, to change things.

Don't suck it up, take charge, take responsibility for your relationship's future, and move forward.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Kput said:


> More a baby and switch.
> 
> I meet my future wife when i was out celebrating my 22 birthday, she was in the same club celebrating her 22 birthday.
> 
> We got talking, hit it off, sex started shortly after


Lemme be a little bit of a buzz kill and inject a little reality into the picture, but I'll pick on some other people to make my point. 
That night at the party where you two met, there is a good chance that same night at that party or another party, a 22 year star quarterback and 22 year old hottest cheerleader on campus also met and hooked up and had wild monkey sex. They got together on the regular and had nasty porn sex and maybe even took pictures and videos of it to prove it show off to their friends. 

Maybe she even brought some of her cheerleader girlfriends along and they had 3ways and bikini parties and such too. 

Heck let's say they even started their own amatuer porn site and plastered their perfect bodies and hot sex all over the early days of internet and made a million dollars in the process and did some of their filming from the deck of their yacht in the Bahamas. 

Then they got married, got real jobs, bought a house and took out a mortgage, bought some cool cars. Had a few kids. 

OK, now it's 2022. They are in their mid 40s. Their kids are teens and are raising hell in the house and coming home drunk,. Daughter Suzy has been flunking math and has a BF that's trouble and theyre afraid she's going to get knocked up and Son Ryan got drunk with his buddies and totaled his car and his buddy's parents are wanting compensation for the deductables on their kid's medical bills. 

OK so reality check here is Hot Cheerleader and Star Quaterback and former amatuer porn stars are just like everyone else now in 2022. She has stretchmarks and a muffin top that her repeated liposuctions and cold sculpting just can't get rid of. 

His hair is thinning and his gut droops over his belt now and today he has stretchmarks from where his biceps used to bulge out of his golf shirt sleeves. 

...........and they haven't had sex since the Labor Day barbecue at the lake house and she hasn't given him a real BJ since Obama was in office. 

This is just the reality. 

There are lots of middle age couples in their 40s and 50s and beyond that still have a working marital sex life. Of those couples, you are probably in the 92nd percentile. 

But no one is fck'n like the rabbits they were in their 20s when they were young and single and drunk and partying all the time. 

The star quarterback and his cheerleader turned bikini model wife that have been married for 20 years and have teenage kids are not having any more or any better sex than you,,, most have it much worse in fact. 

That doesn't mean you shouldn't address it and not take some serious steps to address your growing frustration and resentment and it doesn't mean she shouldn't address her insecurity and sense of discontentment. You SHOULD address those things and I think you should seek professional guidance before you do do something very destructive that will have you on the outside looking in. 

But the decline in sexual energy and urgency and yearning that you are experiencing is very typical and natural. 

Cancer when you are a heavy smoker is typical and natural too, so I am not saying you shouldn't address it. But this isn't a bait and switch or baby and switch or whatever you want to call it. It's what happens when people grow and mature and have homes and families and survive into middle age.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Oldshirt, I have a lot of respect for what you write however the idea that you cannot "go at it like bunnies" as you age is inho wrong just reading on this site how many BH find out that their w is in an affair and having hot sex and giving the ap sex acts they don't give their h who gets if he is lucky bland sex.

Based upon advice from you good people I have a plan to put our relationship back together.

Thank you to everyone for their input.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Kput said:


> Oldshirt, I have a lot of respect for what you write however the idea that you cannot "go at it like bunnies" as you age is inho wrong just reading on this site how many BH find out that their w is in an affair and having hot sex and giving the ap sex acts they don't give their h who gets if he is lucky bland sex.
> 
> Based upon advice from you good people I have a plan to put our relationship back together.
> 
> Thank you to everyone for their input.


Here's hoping good for you guys.


----------



## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I agree that women are likely assuming that things will remain hot and heavy as well. I do not think women intentionally go into a relationship thinking that they will be hot and heavy in the beginning and then turn off the spigot later on.
> 
> What I was saying is I think many will think that since their libido is dropping and that sex is becoming less and less of a priority in their lives, that they often think that their men's priority will, or at least should, change with theirs.
> 
> ...


Ahhh, ok I gotcha. I misunderstood because you said (I'm paraphrasing here) women MARRY men THINKING they will change along with the woman's sex drive. But I agree that SOME or maybe even most women feel overwhelmed with daily responsibilities and sex ends up taking a backseat. I definitely can't deny that. I will add to your current comment though that a guy doesn't even have to be a "do nothing" type. If he works and then feels he can sit and relax because he's worked all day while his wife takes care of the house, the kids, and works full time, that can still k*ll a sex drive. 

For me personally, the only thing that diminished my sex drive was not feeling wanted or appreciated. As soon as that changed, my sex drive went into sex overdrive. He can't keep up with me now. He tells me that all the time


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Thank you CH


----------



## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Lot of good insights so far. I think the inner monologue is a huge driver as well as differing expectations.

I would also add what’s left out is any discussion of attachment style and family-of-origin issues that can weigh heavily on this change from wife/girlfriend/fiancé to mom. My wife is self -admitted avoidant, has attachment/abandonment issues from her family imploding in her teens. She was all about us investing in growing our relationship and sex improvement books. Didn’t want to be like her parents. Then kids came along and now it’s all about growing our family.

On my end, it feels like she quietly divorced me and married our kids. And I flat out told her that. She lacked family attachment and has overly attached herself to the kids giving them (and her) what she never got. The result? Statements along the lines of “we have plenty of time to reconnect when they’re gone” or “I need too find a way to connect with _insert kids name here_.” or “you’re just too needy.” No discussion on us connecting… just why I seem distant and less jovial. Well when she married the kids, she left the real world stuff to me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

KB, some great insights.

Is my w are narc? No I don't believe so, she is a generous person and not very demanding in general.

Has she had a pa or ea? Who knows, I doubt it but many have said that, if she had one it would probably have happened after the kids were born but as I say I doubt it.

Why does she think she has let me down? This is because prior to having kids she had a very high drive this has gone to ld and she is very well aware that I am far from happy about it. My belief is that she is indulging in a form of self flagellation.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

KindBuddha said:


> I think you just nailed it. It is likely OP's wife has some sort of personality dysfunction or characteristics of something like that. Narcissism or borderline, some Cluster B issue based on her projection.


Many women, probably some men too, are self critical because of parent issues. My wife was, it has taken years to reverse alot of the crap her abusive father caused her to be so self critical. 26 years and I have gotten her to not rebuff compliments I give her. Can now see it kind of makes her 😊 when I tell her how beautiful and wonderful she is. Before she would verbally reject it. Sometimes I wished I knew where he was buried so I could go piss on his grave. She has not been back to the grave since his funeral.


----------



## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

I am no expert but for what I have read, men are in their sexual prime from 18 years old to mid 20s. Woman reach their sexual prime from early to mid 30s, after that their libido starts going downhill.
During my lifetime all my male friends, including my old boss, male coworkers and some male family members have told me that after several years of marriage their wives sex drives decreased substantially. In my case, I`m a guy in my 60s and although my sex drive has slowed over the years I am still able to perform. But my wife who is of similar age is practically dead in the bedroom department.
A couple of factors to take into consideration. Children do place a lot of strain on a marriage. In Victorian times rich families hired nannies to care for their children. In-fact it was the nannies who brought up the kids under the parents supervision. 
There is also the menopause. Both of these can reduce a woman`s sexual libido.
What I have witnessed not only pertaining to myself and other men I have known and know, after so many years of marriage if a wife loses her sex drive it is rare that this will ever improve. 
Appears to be a fact of life.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

And yet we very often read of sex drives going into orbit during an affair. Also the hysterical bonding events.


----------



## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I have said this many times.....men focus on their career and we ladies focus on our family as if it were our career. Many times we put everything else first to care for our family and neglect our own needs. Simply put, that is how we are wired. Little doubt that your wife is in love and still attracted to you but she might be too exhausted, or have no desire for, the sex life you once had before children came into the picture. I think OldShirt gave you the perfect analogy.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Her lack of desire is damaging our relationship. She may love me and be attracted but it is a pale shadow of what we once had.

I appear to have to accept this for now at least.


----------



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Kput said:


> Her lack of desire is damaging our relationship. She may love me and be attracted but it is a pale shadow of what we once had.
> 
> I appear to have to accept this for now at least.


I would still advocate for MC to get the right communication going. Either she’s hearing the wrong message or sending the wrong one, or you are, or maybe both. But doing nothing will gain you exactly that.


----------



## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

Kput said:


> And yet we very often read of sex drives going into orbit during an affair. Also the hysterical bonding events.


Actually you make a very good point.
Perhaps boredom is one reason why wives lose sexual interest with their husbands.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

007, if my w has not got my message loud and clear then she must be deaf, dumb and blind.

GP5, possibly boredom but the change from hd to ld was the birth of my children not a slow decline in our sexual relationship which I think would happen with boredom and familiarity.

My w had some concerns a while ago about me leaving or straying but she seems back on solid foundations now well I intend to shake those foundations and put some uncertainty into her life, I am done being taken for granted.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Kput said:


> well I intend to shake those foundations and put some uncertainty into her life, I am done being taken for granted.


That won't work. I've been there. You will push her further away by creating an hostile environment. She knows what you are going through and, if she is not changing, it means she can't. I doubt she is doing it on purpose. You can have MC and then, if nothing comes out of it, you will be faced with a difficult choice. In my experience, women don't just find their libido again, magically. Even less if they find themselves threatened in the marriage.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Not hostile just showing less interest in her, not in a blatant was but in a subtle way. 

After reading on here for some weeks I know the signs of an affair, I intend to give those signs even though I won't be having an affair.

Afaiac nothing to lose.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Of course she can change, it is a choice she can choose to make or not.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Kput said:


> Not hostile just showing less interest in her, not in a blatant was but in a subtle way.


You can be as subtle as you wish, she will feel very insecure and that's not the right way to rebuild your marriage. I tried that - on the advice of many people here - and it failed miserably and made things 100 times worse. When your partner loses trust in you, you are doomed. Also, have you ever experience a total lack of libido? If you haven't, I can tell you you don't magically create it. In fact, by being pushy and hostile, you will make the situation impossible for her.

Look, I don't have a solution... and I know you are getting really frustrated, I'm only saying you need to be careful. I would try MC first to see if you can find out what's really going on.


----------



## BoSlander (5 mo ago)

Kput said:


> [...]if she had one it would probably have happened after the kids were born but as I say I doubt it[...]


Boss, if your doubts about your wife's infidelity are around the same time she gave birth to _your_ children, you better make sure those are your kids. You can get DNA test kits from Amazon and get that information without her knowing. 

I'm not joking.


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Bo, no chance at all that she had an affair before my kids were born and I very very much doubt she had one after, it was just speculation by LB regarding her libido drop.

My w is very against affairs as one ruined her older sisters marriage.


----------



## BoSlander (5 mo ago)

Kput said:


> Not bait and switch but baby and switch, the fact that I don't think it was a conscious decision on her part hardly helps.


That's what *you* think.

Your wife is very well aware of when her husband isn't getting enough sex. She just *decides* not to do anything about it. It's a decision, a selfish decision, much like cheating.

If she has a headache, what does she do? Pop a few Tylenols and on she goes. She's tired? Sleeps in until 1PM. She has no issue whatsoever taking care of her needs.


----------



## BoSlander (5 mo ago)

Kput said:


> My w is very against affairs as one ruined her older sisters marriage.


Listen, just watch your back. Inform yourself of the signs of adultery. Do it on a just-in-case basis.

My XW told me, to my face, not one blink, that she would NEVER cheat on me, and that she felt insulted that I would even insinuate and suggest such a thing. She even swore on our dead child's grave (she had a miscarriage). Well, she cheated on me 4 times, and around that time she was banging 3 dudes (including me) at a time. For many years I suspected not once that she was cheating on me.

I knew something was amiss when the sex just took a nosedive. We went from doing it 3 times per week to 1 time per month. At one time I made a huge issue of it and asked her to go to the doctor to get her libido checked. I, like you, didn't suspect anything, although, in hindsight, the signs were everywhere: wearing VS thongs to work, the getting home ½ late/going to work ½ early every day, the days she was taking a shower as soon as she came through the door, etc.

Ain't in amazing how little she's in the mood for sex with you and how a hot-n-wild stud seemingly can make her drip by simply saying what she wants to hear? Isn't it... _odd_?


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

A misunderstanding of sorts, I have plenty of sex it is that it is so bland, no initiating or at least rare initiating from her, she knows how to make bland love she has forgotten how to f**k, how to get hot and sweaty.


----------



## BoSlander (5 mo ago)

Kput said:


> A misunderstanding of sorts, I have plenty of sex it is that it is so bland, no initiating or at least rare initiating from her, she knows how to make bland love she has forgotten how to f**k, how to get hot and sweaty.


So... THIS is your issue?










And you want this:


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Not quite lol, I had eight years of new relationship energy with no fade, a gf then wife who was very much on the same page, the passion and desire from her was amazing, the the arrival of the kids turned the heat off.


----------



## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Seems like you need a new relationship. You insulted your wife and killed the desire she had. Good one.


----------



## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

And please with that picture, so lame. Hats realistic at 40+, not


----------



## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Kput said:


> KB, some great insights.
> 
> Is my w are narc? No I don't believe so, she is a generous person and not very demanding in general.
> 
> ...


Hormone change! She’s Oder what do you not get? The fact you say extremely hurtful selfish things is part of it too


----------



## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Kput said:


> Oldshirt, I have a lot of respect for what you write however the idea that you cannot "go at it like bunnies" as you age is inho wrong just reading on this site how many BH find out that their w is in an affair and having hot sex and giving the ap sex acts they don't give their h who gets if he is lucky bland sex.
> 
> Based upon advice from you good people I have a plan to put our relationship back together.
> 
> Thank you to everyone for their input.


What’s your plan? Tell her to act like a porn star or you’re leaving?


----------



## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Your wife changed because she carried two kids. She cared for them, her body changed. If you didn’t change go try to bang 22 year olds. I’m sure that’ll work. Your attitude toward your wife is ****


----------



## BoSlander (5 mo ago)

snowbum said:


> You insulted your wife and killed the desire she had. Good one.


The insults are the excuse. There are underlying issues that she's choosing to store and not divulge that snowball into much bigger issues, at which point females have no idea how to tackle.


----------



## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

No they aren’t. Insults destroy the soul. Tell me once I’m not what you married and make feel feel like a failure and I’m on the way to done.

never mind you’re Italy cheating guy obsessed with evil women. Figures


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

snowbum said:


> Your wife changed because she carried two kids. She cared for them, her body changed. If you didn’t change go try to bang 22 year olds. I’m sure that’ll work. Your attitude toward your wife is ****


Not true

I had 2 kids. Millions of women have had kids and they still were able to be passionate after it.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

snowbum said:


> No they aren’t. Insults destroy the soul. Tell me once I’m not what you married and make feel feel like a failure and I’m on the way to done.
> 
> never mind you’re Italy cheating guy obsessed with evil women. Figures


What does "Italy cheating guy" mean????


----------



## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Changed his name had multi page threads about monitoring spouse that was questionable


----------



## Kput (3 mo ago)

Snowbum, the snarky comment was AFTER my wife's loss of desire not BEFORE. I was very patient after the kids were born whilst awaiting the return of my hd wife.

If I had a problem with ld or ed I would Hunt high and low for a solution.

"What's my plan" try reading it helps.


----------

