# Can't get past old, unresolved infidelity.



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

A perfect storm of triggers and events brought me to these forums a little over two years ago. My marriage was bad then, although I didn't really know it at the time. I thought we were just in a rut, although in hindsight any idiot should know that 3 years of zero sex or intimacy (and many bad years leading up to that) is more than a rut. So little over two years ago my current mid-life crisis started to kick in and I made a decision that I am not going to live the rest of my life that way and decided to try and fix it.

That's when things got bad. I handled it wrong. It went off-script immediately. She won't talk to me about our relationship, so I've had to read between the lines, but long story short she fell out of love with me a long time ago. Never was really into me sexually. Basically checked out a long time ago. I don't think wives ever come fully back from that, but I need to find something to salvage our relationship. We are not going to divorce just because I don't feel loved. We've got to make it work.

Anyhow, we're working on things. It's funny, but people complain how words are easy but you need to see actions back them up. My wife won't talk to me, but she acts like a wife who (for the most part) wants to make her marriage work. She admits that the "before time" was bad and that we should fix it. We're working on the sex. We talk. We've got work, but I think we can live happily ever after. In our own comfortable, dysfunctional way, anyhow.

But I can't get over an old infidelity. It is minor in the whole scheme of things, but I can't get past it. It happened a long time ago. It was short lived. I can almost guarantee no bodily fluids were exchanged. Possibly not even saliva. No sex of any type. But there were men. Men I've never heard about. There was secrecy that more closely resembled sneakiness. And after 12 years of not addressing it in a healthy way, there is still no closure for me.

However, if I am going to be a man that my wife can love and respect, whining about this 12 year old indiscretion again is not the way to do it. I've already spoken to her about it. It went badly. Off script immediately. It happened a long time ago. She doesn't even know what I'm talking about. She doesn't remember. When I pressed the issue, I was kindly instructed to get over it.

The first time I ever posted a word on an internet chat room was 2005. 6 years after this all happened. I didn't know how to ask for help. I didn't know what an emotional affair was until late 2009. That there could be infidelity without sex. So I sucked it up for 12 years thinking I just need to get over it. Who knows. maybe I do. That is what I am asking you. Do I suck it up and get over it or talk to her? I did not post this in the infidelity forum in respect to those that have been seriously cheated on. And this is really a thread about communication vs. manning up anyhow.

But part of what brought me to this and other forums originally was to determine if my wife's actions so long ago were indeed inappropriate. And after 2 years of research on the subject, I can honestly say that the answer is a resounding "yes". It happened a long time ago, but the realization that it was a form of infidelity just hit me. The wounds are fresh. I can't just "get over it". But pursuing it will make me look weak. Push her away.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. Sorry it was so long. I needed you to know the background, what the stakes were. It's more than just the old issue. It's that this issue is standing in the way of healing a 24 year relationship and saving a family with three children. I need to get past this to help myself. I've got to fix my marriage.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You've written the problem and the solution. You cannot get around the fact that pursuing the past and pursuing the future cannot co-exist.

If your wife is truly acting well today, and you have optimism over the future of your marriage, then you have to let go of the past. But, if you can't let go of the past, you have to give up the present and the future. That's the crux of it.

You will frustrate your wife and your reconciliation if you do not make up your mind which way you are going. I don't have the answer of which way you should go, that is a personal decision.

The question I have for you is where would your marriage be if your wife dwelled on your mistakes of the past? I think your goal should be building an awesome marriage where both you and your spouse feel loved.


----------



## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

I disagree with hicks.
I also disagree with you that the infidelity is not that big in your marital problems.

Infidelity is HUGE. You say that it isn't but show thAt it is in your inability to get over it.
I don't think that you will ever get over it without knowing everything and seeing true remorse from your wife. Maybe the true remorse won't bi immediate, but will come as more of your issues are resolved.

Two people told me to "get over it". To them both I said that I would in time, but not until I know everything and talk to the OM.
I'm over it.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

MrK said:


> The wounds are fresh. I can't just "get over it". But pursuing it will make me look weak. Push her away.
> ..
> I've got to fix my marriage.


Your marriage sounds not bad. What you've got to fix is yourself. Walking around holding 12 year old bitterness and hurt in your heart is not good for anyone, especially not the holder.

I had this exact discussion late last night. Like yourself, my wife does not participate so I speak to a silent listener. I resolved to put all our unresolved past problems behind me and be the partner that brings love into our marriage. Am I over everything this morning? No. How am I going to get where I want to be? Work on things one day at a time. Am I strong enough to do it? Absolutely. I don't have the answers but I can say that the first step is to resolve in your mind what you are going to do. Commit yourself to your goal. Refresh that commitment as often as needed.


----------



## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I wish you luck. She may very well be open to moving ahead, but she is wanting to take her indescretions to her grave. She is rug sweeping. If she was really interested in working through this she would deal with this for your sake if not hers. By not talking about what happened it leaves open the door that this was way worse than you have imagined. That may of may not be the case. It was infidelity for sure. But why keep it so secret? I think that not telling you about it is as unfaithful as what she was doing at the time.

When a spouse "gets away" with infidelity in this manner it hurts the marriage in many ways. For one the WS knows there is a secret. They know they disrespected their spouse. They know that the BS knows this as well. They therefore have even less respect for the BS. She remembers what happened. She was actually being overly cruel to you in doing it in the manner she did. She may have been all about her but her actions were all about hurting you.

So your problem is that to move forward you have to forgive her for not just infidelity with OM in what ever fashion that took place and the associated secrecy but the continued secrecy. That is the deal isn't it. This is the rub. The infidelity of the continued secrecy keeps you from moving past the original unfaithfulness. 

I am not saying this to open the old wounds but as they say the old wounds have not been allowed to heal. You may be able to get to a point in yourself where for some period of time you can focus on the now, but that could be like holding your breath. Idunno. 

You of course need to create a new relationship. A new marriages out of the ashes. 

Are you guys spending quality time together and dating? Is there intimacy. Not just sex. Are you able to share anything with one another?


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Unanswered questions are poison. I believe for me that we can survive almost anything with open honesty. Secrecy and lies are worse than the behavior being covered up. To me it would be a continuing betrayal to refuse to answer all questions you have.

Some people may be able to move forward and forget the past. I am not like that until the past is resolved. Specifically in this case until the trust is resolved.


----------



## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

A healthy marriage requires trust. Because there are still secrets your wife is keeping, you cannot trust her. It is understandable that you would feel untrusting as things are.

Tell her what you need to know and ask her to get it all out in the open. If she refuses, it's because SHE doesn't want to deal with it. That is seflish of her. She needs to put her own ego aside and give you want you need for you to move forward - honesty.


----------



## arekayone (Aug 6, 2011)

I feel your pain brother. I am getting over an "emotional affair" my wife had this year that lasted about four months with a high school boyfriend from 30 years ago. Facebook is evil.

We have worked our butts off to fix this, did counseling and have become extremely communicative about everything. I can honestly say that I have had some of the best times of my married life over the past few months.....

.....however......

Every now and then something will pop into my mind. What was she talking to this guy about, every day on the phone? What was in the 200 email messages I found but deleted before I dared look at them for fear of permanent emotional damage? The guy is a musician, he wrote flippin songs to my wife....how do I get over that? How about when she told me she was attracted to him....those words are seemingly etched in my brain forever.

I'm on here tonight because I slipped into a funk again. It usually lasts a day or two and then things get better. I think time will probably heal it, but I'm getting really, really tired of people telling me to "just get over it". You don't "just get over' your wife and best friend of 25 years sneaking around behind your back for four months. 

I've had several friends tell me that they had similar experiences and it still haunts them from time to time. If my wife gets upset when I fall into one of those funks, I guess it is just the price she will have to pay for the incredibly stupid thing she did to our marriage.

As schizophrenic as it sounds, hard work can really turn a worn out marriage into an exciting, loving relationship. It has for us, but I expect these thoughts will keep coming back, albeit less frequently.

Good luck.


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Hicks said:


> The question I have for you is where would your marriage be if your wife dwelled on your mistakes of the past? I think your goal should be building an awesome marriage where both you and your spouse feel loved.


If one of my "mistakes from the past" were putting her through what I am going through now, I'd want her to come to me for help. I may hate it, but I'd help her. Building the awesome marriage is the hard part. If I don't do the heavy lifting, it's not going to happen.



DanF said:


> I also disagree with you that the infidelity is not that big in your marital problems.
> 
> Infidelity is HUGE. You say that it isn't but show that it is in your inability to get over it.
> I don't think that you will ever get over it without knowing everything and seeing true remorse from your wife.


All I meant was that reconnecting with my wife is most important. Of course the infidelity is important to me or I wouldn't have over 1,000 posts scattered among multiple relationship sites over a 2+ year period. I will never know everything. I will never know ANYTHING. And since her strategy is "I don't remember", I'm not holding my breath for the true remorse.



Ten_year_hubby said:


> Like yourself, my wife does not participate so I speak to a silent listener.


As I anticipate my next moves, I fully understand I will be working with a silent listener. I'll talk, she'll listen. I need to work it so that her non-response is actually a response. Not easy. That's been the hardest part about the past 2 years. WILL YOU PLEASE JUST TALK TO ME!!!



Entropy3000 said:


> You of course need to create a new...marriages out of the ashes.
> 
> Are you guys spending quality time together and dating? Is there intimacy. Not just sex. Are you able to share anything with one another?


The rest of your post was spot-on. Thank you. I just thought I'd address this. Create a new marriage "out of the ashes". Yeah, it's bad. Everything I thought I knew crashed and burned over the past 2 years.

My wife is happy with the roommate arrangement. She would be content to chat about superficial crap when we need to talk at all. No intimacy. No dates. Sex is when I want it. She has NEVER initiated in our entire relationship. Her perfect life would be me allowing her to lie down on the sofa and watch 3 hours of reality TV all night. Then bed-time. No talk, no sex, no holding. No, it's not a good marriage, but we're trying to make it work.



Thor said:


> Unanswered questions are poison. I believe for me that we can survive almost anything with open honesty. Secrecy and lies are worse than the behavior being covered up. To me it would be a continuing betrayal to refuse to answer all questions you have.


Thank you. Yes, this is exactly how I feel.



Laurae1967 said:


> Tell her what you need to know and ask her to get it all out in the open. If she refuses, it's because SHE doesn't want to deal with it. That is seflish of her. She needs to put her own ego aside and give you want you need for you to move forward - honesty.


Thank you. Yes, that's what I need to do. But I'm scared to do it.



arekayone said:


> Every now and then something will pop into my mind. What was she talking to this guy about, every day on the phone? What was in the 200 email messages I found but deleted before I dared look at them for fear of permanent emotional damage?
> 
> I'm on here tonight because I slipped into a funk again. It usually lasts a day or two and then things get better.
> 
> I've had several friends tell me that they had similar experiences and it still haunts them from time to time.


12 years and it still haunts me. I used to get "triggered" every couple of years and I would stress for a couple of weeks, then it would go away. In trying to fix myself after this last one, I really messed myself up. I've been stressing about it for going on 800 days straight now. Don't make my mistake. Fix yours NOW, and do it right. Get help and advice. I didn't and now I'm miserable.


----------



## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

> My wife is happy with the roommate arrangement. She would be content to chat about superficial crap when we need to talk at all. No intimacy. No dates. Sex is when I want it. She has NEVER initiated in our entire relationship. Her perfect life would be me allowing her to lie down on the sofa and watch 3 hours of reality TV all night. Then bed-time. No talk, no sex, no holding. No, it's not a good marriage, but we're trying to make it work.


Ok. So this is what you have to work with. You have indicated that you want to reconnect with your wife. You are afraid to demand the answers ... yet. 

I assume you have read the book Married Man Sex Life. I only mention it because much of what is quoted above may be part of your Rosetta Stone and is similar at least in certain aspects to many men's situations we have seen on this forum.

Also the usual work on yourself stuff. You know this as well as anyone already.

You have probably tried this, and it may feel mind numbing to do but what if you engaged her in a ton of superficial conversation over an extended period of time. Maybe she has this need. To many women that is communication. Yeah I know. I am a problem solver. I am looking for a point, a root cause, something to fix and a solution. I have run into this with my wife and daughters time and again. I catch myself trying to solve a problem. Sometimes they need that, but more often that not they are just talking about it and want you to be there and listen. When I roll with it and listen and am more casual about my questions and suggestions, more low key, they seem really happy about it. And have copme to realize that this has helped my relationships. Go figure.

There must be dates. So dates are activities that you two do together. Sure you need to reach a point, that you can schedule regular dates. 

Maybe some folks can suggest a way to ease into this. BUT, how about selecting an activity and spontaneously saying hey let's go. What!? Go where? You fill in the blank but tell her to just come along. She has to like something. Take her window shopping in the mall. There is great opportunity with the holidays coming up. Maybe say you want to buy something for a relative. Whatever. Even if there is not a lot of talking. Be together. Run a kino escalation on her. Look, she enjoyed something about being spontaneous in the clubbing stuff. Seduce her over a love period of time. Break down the barriers just like a PUA would. So I am talking about being able to hold her hand while shopping. Being able to pull her over to look at something in a window. Maybe her saying, hey that;s interesting, let's go look at it. Do the subtle things. Being able to touch her in non sexual, but nice ways. Like having your hand on the small of her back as you walk. Seriously look up kino escalation if you have not. See the cheesy videos. Get some ideas. The key to it I think lies in the iterative non threatening nature. The subtle pressur that when you touch you are not forcing her to you but giving a slight pressure away. Knowing how to pull back and then try again. This will take work and patience. You have time. If you can get her comfortable with any of this over time, she will eventually grab hold of your arm if not initiating, in repsonse to your touch. 

Reality TV. Probably a huge clue threre but Idunno. She is missing something in her life and living vicariously through others. My wife and I like to watch movies together. I think whatever TV there is, it is best if the couple can cuddle up together and be able to make comments about what is going on. Sometimes it allows discussion on topics that would be very awkward to bring up otherwise. It can be used to break down barriers in much the same way as the Kino Escalation. 

Having success above IS a level of intimacy. If you have tried these before then give it a go again but make sure this happens over weeks / months. Your hope is that in all of it there becomes something new for the two of you to enjoy. There may indeed come a time down the road where you start getting answers. Seduce her mind first. Get the Oxytocin flowing to gain her trust. The Dopamine will come after enough trust is gained and you are doing enjoyable things. How much? Who knows? But you must connect on these levels for any progress.

Go look at Christmas lights. Go to the Ballet. A concert. A play. Go walking together. Go to dinner and a movie.


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Thanks E3K. I guess I really do need to start moving on this. You have some good suggestions you probably see as baby steps. Just looking her in the face and talking a little is baby steps for me. Your suggestions are high school first date scary for me. 

Plus, it's hard to commit. I've spent a lot of the past year moving away from her because she won't come back. But the "nobody is going anywhere" part of it is kicking in so I need to do what I can to make us happy. We have a lot more time together. Sexless I can handle. That's going to hit some day anyhow. I refuse to spend 30-40 more years in a loveless marriage, however.


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> You are afraid to demand the answers ... yet.


How do I do that? She's going to take the "I don't remember" to her grave. Yes, we need to reconnect. But it's hard with this standing in the way.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My wife’s partner in crime was the wife in one of the couples we were close friends with. Her husband was (still is) a close friend of mine. I like to drink in bars. Always have. The feel of it. The conversation. Just being out with people. My friend never did. His philosophy is why spend $5.00 on a beer when his fridge is filled with ones he just paid $1.00 each for? We rarely went out for that reason. Not so his wife. She would go out regularly and drink at bars and clubs until closing. Sometimes with friends, sometimes she'd sneak out alone. I've never talked to him about it (his wife's escapades were only alluded to in whispers among outside observers, if it was discussed at all), but I'm pretty sure he agreed to it because she didn't spend any money while she was out. I'll let you figure out for yourselves how she would do it. I'll give you a hint: she was pretty hot back then. Still is. They have since divorced.

My wife got sucked in one summer. My wife knew what she was in for the moment the friend invited her along. I found out they were going out for the first time as I saw the back of my wife while she told me she was "going out dancing with ____" on her way out the door, leaving an infant and a toddler at home with me. That was 8:15 or so. Still light out. (I'm not a clubber, but even I know that if your going to party all night at a nightclub, getting there before 10:00 is a waste. More on that later). She'd get home at 2:30 AM, turn her back to me, say good night and go to sleep. Never a word about where she'd been or what she did. Which drinker (her or her wingwoman) drove home. Any word beyond "did you have fun" was answered with a vagueness that made it sound like an interrogation if I continued, so I stopped asking. A process that repeated itself 7 or 8 times over the course of the summer.

But what kind of a Neanderthal has a problem with his wife going out to let off a little steam after giving birth to his two kids? So I sucked it up. I even suffered on weekends she DIDN'T go out. Since she never gave me warning that she was going, I'd stress every Saturday until party time came and went. Repeat cycle.

I have known my wife for 25 years now. In that entire time, I could tell you how much cash she had in her wallet at any give time. How? Did I spy and count the cash in her possession regularly? Was I an ogre with the finances? NO, it was simpler than that. The answer was always "none". My wife never carries cash to this day. So as she was leaving, with no notice, to spend 6 hours partying at meat markets, I knew she had no money on her. I think her and her wingwoman made a game about seeing if they could party all night and not spend a dime.

I guess I COULD stop right here. That last sentence says enough. I could keep this post short. But after 2 plus years, this is the thread where I finally try to fix my problem, including a little venting. Read on if you're interested. Otherwise you've read enough to comment.

And all of that time, 6 hours at a shot. are all a blank. I want to talk to her about what they talked about on their way to the clubs. How they decided which to go to. What they did when they got there. Who they partied with. Who bought them drinks. What did they have to do for those drinks. Were there slow dances, drunken kisses? Worse? Did they meet up with the same people on multiple weekends and party with them? Did they go to peoples houses? Bar-hop? What went on all of that time? What did they talk about on the way home? Did they talk about it during the week? Which club was better? Played better music? Had more/hotter guys?

Well, it ended late that summer when a mistake on her part made it harder to say "I'm going out dancing with ____" and have it NOT resemble the more accurate "I'm heading out with ____ to party all night with strange men at meat markets". I didn't tell her to stop. She was smart enough to know that the gig was up. Over. That little puppy that was rolling over for her all summer was gone. It was going to get too hard for her to continue. And there is to be no more discussion about it.

So it's over. We get on with our lives. I didn't forget any of it, but it wold bother me every now and then. I'd stress over it for a few weeks every few years then it would stop. Finally, in the summer of 2009, it was one of the issues that was hitting me during that "perfect storm" of triggers that caused this whole mess. We talked. It got bad. She doesn't remember any of this. And later, I just need to "get over it".

There was this bar the wingwoman used to always include on her little escapades. Not a dance club. One of those holes in the wall that is trendy because it is a popular dive. I knew they had to have gone there as part of their excursions, but I didn't see how it would fit into a night of "dancing". So one evening after this whole recent mess started (1-2 years ago), a friend was over and we decided to go out for a beer. I suggested this place. I had ulterior motives. Since this all happened so long ago and my wife was mum on it, I needed to do what I could to understand it. Possibly seeing how this place fit into their old plans was one way to do it so we went for a pitcher. It didn't tell me anything. It wasn't crowded. No hooking up going on. We left. I thought nothing of it. I eventually went to bed.

My wife was in bed already. Another of my issues is my wife ignoring me in bed. Always has. So I'm getting ready to slip into bed without a word, which was par for the course. But she surprised me by asking if me and the friend and I had a nice visit. Then, "so where did you go"?. I told her, then in a "maybe this wasn't such a waste of time after all" moment, I asked if she'd ever been there. After the first minute of her talking through the details of what should have been a simple "yes/no" answer, I realized I should just shut up and let her talk. See how long this answer could go. See what she'd say. So for about 5 uninterrupted minutes of verbal analysis as to what her answer should be, finally ending in a "no, I don't think I've ever been there". She later said she felt like I was "interrogating her", when literally the ONLY words I said on the subject were "have you ever been there?".

So, that told me three things:
1 - She had been there.
2 - She just lied to me.
3 - She lied to me for a reason, and that reason was obviously because she didn't want me to know the details of her time there.

My point? Well, remember I said that my wife left the house with no money. I meant NO money. Zero. The one club I knew they frequented had a cover charge. The point of the game was to spend NO money, not just a little money. I truly believe they went to this and other bars, that had no cover charge, started drinking there and found men that would pay the cover charge at the clubs. It explains the 8:00 - 8:30 departure time to drive 10 minutes to a club they had no reason to be at until 10-10:30.

A little paranoid at the end there? Maybe. But I can't stop thinking about all of the time she spent partying at meat markets, with her veteran wingwoman. Just going dancing. I guess that sounds better than "heading out to meet and party with strange men at hook-up joints".

PLEASE do not hijack this thread and turn it into a girls night out thread. That's NOT what this is about. This is about dealing with old, unresolved inappropriate behavior on the part of my wife and the problem I have with it now. This particular infidelity just happened to revolve around w.h.o.r.i.n.g at meat markets. A problem she REFUSES to help me with. I've still got as many as 40 years or more with this woman. I need to do something.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Mrk,

My stance on this type of subject probably relegates me to neanderthal in most people's mind, from what I've read before, but I do believe that it represents a very healthy sense of self-respect.

I don't think you feel that it is possible for her to just forget what happened. Based on the times she left, and broad range of dates, I wonder if it is far more likely that she feels with 100% confidence that it should just be treated as a mistake and just move on.

What does it show you? Any, any woman who would not see how these unanswered questions can crush a man's soul has not come to the place of maturity where she sees that only half of the marriage is made up of her happiness. The other half of her marriageis to learn your mate's values and interests, to ensure their happiness too. My wife has never cheated, but sadly, she has never distinguished my happiness and contentment from her own in her mind. I feel that we are both living her dream of a happy marriage, and not our dream. Your wife has implicitly set the rules where only her feelings matter. In this way, your mid-life experience is very much like mine, I think.

Your writing is practical, and introspective. Practical and introspective men cannot move on without understanding or resolution of a serious betrayal. I don't think that you will ever resolve this inner turmoil until you can understand it. To some of us, restitution is not even as important as a genuine feeling of regret, through laying out all of the cards on the table. Its like seeing her true face, and the repentance on it.

The thing is, though, through all of the various discussions that tend to go on among friends where I work, you are not asking for something that is out there in an extreme point of view. You are asking about betrayal, and the foundation to your marriage. Your wife is just unable to face the fact that infidelity doesn't just go away with time.

I'm very sorry for the pain you've endured.


----------



## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Mrk. After you tsale, i ask : Why are you trying to save a marriage to a woman who has done such evil?

Life is one time around, why are you giving her another minute of yours?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

She's not into you. She hasn't been for a long time now.

But she is into other men, many of them. Just not you.

Why do you want to stay with her, and teach/show your kids to have low self-esteems?


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Halien said:


> I wonder if it is far more likely that she feels with 100% confidence that it should just be treated as a mistake and just move on.


I've been giving this some thought lately. It all happened back when she was a young mother. Stuck with a husband she didn't love. Committed to me at 20, the only man she has made love to. I can understand her being seduced by the lifestyle her toxic friend offered her. While she was still young and pretty. Before the opportunity was lost.

Not long after the second time we spoke about it, when it became perfectly clear that she will never "remember" it, and I was so helpfully told to just get over it, I needed to snoop. But how do you snoop on a 10 year old "cold case"? All I had were credit card statements going back that long. It's all I had, so I looked. I don't know what I'd expected to find. I had known all along they never spent money. And sure enough, there was nothing.

Nothing except, like clockwork, once a week, religiously, a charge for Weight-Watchers. I don't know how I'd forgotten that. She had a second kid, weaned him off of the bottle pretty quickly, hit the gym, got looking good, and hit the clubs like it was Christmas and her Birthday all rolled into one. And I already mentioned that her toxic friend, who my wife would later refer to as having been "kind of wild back then", was drop-dead hot. They must have made quite a duo. The sky was the limit when they hit the bars as an experienced team.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

OK so here is what I see. She had multiple affairs back then. No way to come to any other conclusion. Now she wants to not say a word and she claims amnesia.

Are you ok with her having had multiple sexual affairs? Are you ok with never knowing anything substantive about it? Can you move forward with the attitude that it is all in the past? Do you trust her going forward?

If all the answers to the above are YES, then just forget about it and move forward.

However, I suspect you are not ok with the unanswered questions. My opinion, fwiw, is that it might be possible to move forward if the wife showed real remorse about her actions and made strong substantive moves to make things right with you. It would mean truthfully answering all my questions, and stating her remorse and desire to make amends. It would also require her actions to make amends.

That's me. Your requirements may be different.

But in my case I think I would need the answers. The best way to do that is to have a calm discussion with her to briefly set out your position and conclusions. Then ask her if she wants to tell you about it. If she is anything but completely forthcoming, I would say I want her to take a polygraph just so I can put all my doubts to rest so that we can move forward with a clean slate.

I understand your position in that you see good things in your marriage and she is basically a good person to you. You have kids with her and have spent many years together. If she is really willing to be trustworthy and make a good marriage going forward it would be much better to stay together than get a divorce. But there is the nagging worry about what really happened and can you really trust her going forward. I suspect my wife of having an affair, and believe it is no longer in any way going on. But the hard evidence is long gone. My circumstantial evidence is nowhere near as strong as yours, but I still understand your worries and the nagging uncertainty.


----------



## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Have you got yourself tested for the full panel of STDs?

Maybe, invite her along?


----------



## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

I wasnt sure reading your original post if you're still having sex with your wife now? Or, is that 3 or more years without sex/intimacy?

If not, I dont understand how she could so promiscuous back then and all of sudden stop?

Did she perhaps caught something and dont want you to know?


----------



## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

And you should seriously consider doing paternity tests on all 3(?) of your children. They are fairly inexpensive now.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

MrK said:


> I've been giving this some thought lately. It all happened back when she was a young mother. Stuck with a husband she didn't love. Committed to me at 20, the only man she has made love to. I can understand her being seduced by the lifestyle her toxic friend offered her. While she was still young and pretty. Before the opportunity was lost.
> 
> Not long after the second time we spoke about it, when it became perfectly clear that she will never "remember" it, and I was so helpfully told to just get over it, I needed to snoop. But how do you snoop on a 10 year old "cold case"? All I had were credit card statements going back that long. It's all I had, so I looked. I don't know what I'd expected to find. I had known all along they never spent money. And sure enough, there was nothing.
> 
> Nothing except, like clockwork, once a week, religiously, a charge for Weight-Watchers. I don't know how I'd forgotten that. She had a second kid, weaned him off of the bottle pretty quickly, hit the gym, got looking good, and hit the clubs like it was Christmas and her Birthday all rolled into one. And I already mentioned that her toxic friend, who my wife would later refer to as having been "kind of wild back then", was drop-dead hot. They must have made quite a duo. The sky was the limit when they hit the bars as an experienced team.


The questions you ask yourself here are very brutal questions. While another person can't help you answer these, I can say that the way you self-analyze indicates that you are a very strong person, in my opinion. So many men would just bury this immediately, but as Entropy said, you do have to be able to put it behind you eventually. I wish you strength in this. But also take a look at how much strength you already have - you can get through this.


----------



## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

MrK - I couldn't do it. I couldn't stay married in your situation. I put up with a lot of things, but what you have and still are continuing to put up with makes you not just a door mat, but the driveway in front of the house! (not to insult you here).

There's one reason alone why she won't talk (or have intimacy with you) - she's cheated multiple times - as she doesn't really love you and respect you. You really should respect yourself and not put up with it anymore. 

Help her pack her bags (BTW - how old are the kids now). And tell her you might think about her coming back once she has become transparent about her actions and is willing to work on the marriage. right now - you are married to a cold, dead fish. 

Can you even stand the stench anymore? Come on! Respect yourself!


----------



## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

MrK, your title implies a one time cheating, however your story us much more. Your wife went out of an entire summer of being a cheap easy to pickup party girl along with her tramps friend. Now she conveniently doesn't remember anything about an entire summer of getting free drinks, cover charges pad for by men,and her payback for their attention.

Honestly a more truthful description would be your wife's summer as a cheap escort, which she doesn't remember.

The question you have to decide, are you ok ignoring her living the life of an escort for that summer or not?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

I've been coming on this and other sites for a couple of years now. I see posts where someone will describe something truly unbelievable and ask if they should be worried. I also see posts where someone is describing a scenario where infidelity isn't even the subject, but the posters get off on a tangent about dumping the scag, getting tested for STD's and paternity tests for the kids. 

I don't think there was sex. I can almost guarantee it. I doubt there were handjobs. And if there was kissing, which there HAD to have been, it was light and spur of the moment "innocent". I doubt there were even heavy make-out sessions.

My wife knows I won't leave. And instead of using that knowledge to work with me to make our lives better for the rest of forever, she continues to pull away. Sure, when I push she makes it looks like she wants it to work, but as soon as I pull back too see if she will show interest, it's right back to three hours of TV and her back turned to me without a word when she gets to bed.

I'm not going to fix this. I can't get around A LOT of what is wrong with my marriage. My wife wants to fake it for the next 30 years. I can't. It's easy for her to stay away from someone she doesn't love. It's hard for me to stay close to someone who doesn't love me and never will.

I am going to compose a letter and give it to her. I'll probably post it here first. You all have good advice. I'm going to tell her everything I've been saying to her through my words on this website. I will confirm that our marriage is over. A big part of the letter will be that old betrayal she continues to lie about. I'll move to the spare bedroom and try to live with the family for as long as I can. But seeing the person you love more than anyone in the world, day after day, ignore you like you're not even there (or worse, like she WISHES I wasn't there). Is too much to bear.

And every time I go to bed alone, with her two feet away, kills me a little more every day.

I have to do something about my marriage. It can't be fixed. All I can do is go to the separation and divorce section to see if those folks can convince me to pull the trigger and get on with the rest of my life. Alone.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

MrK said:


> My wife knows I won't leave. And instead of using that knowledge to work with me to make our lives better for the rest of forever, she continues to pull away. Sure, when I push she makes it looks like she wants it to work, but as soon as I pull back too see if she will show interest, it's right back to three hours of TV and her back turned to me without a word when she gets to bed.


Mrk,

When a person 'knows' that you will not leave, a very unrealistic dynamic can set in that makes true reconciliation very, very difficult. I know because I've been there. My wife and I were doggedly opposed to divorce to such a degree that she saw no reason to address her bipolar depressionl. Literally, She curls up in a ball with depression at least one day per week, now that she is really working with a psychiatrist (her disorder does not work well with anti-depressants - she becomes suicidal). So for years, she spent weeks at a time wanting to die, and would become really angry if I wan't happy with the relationship. I was in a catch 22, but I realized that she just was not trying to get help.

Its so hard to describe, but the temptation, I believe, can lead to a behavior she is constantly testing the edge, based on her own resentments over your inability to treat her like this never happened. "Just how much will MrK take?" seems to be the attitude when she feels lonely, unnapreciated, etc.

I don't advocate divorce when a poster wants to work it out, or I try not to, but I do think you need to face the fact that this letter might only make it worse unless it will somehow advertise to the world, so to speak, that this marriage is now on its way to end. In other words, she can't pretend to herself and others that things are okay. In my wife's case, when we talked about divorce or seperaton, she was making preparation to move in with relatives. My situation was different, though, because I was ready to end the relationship over much deeper issues than I mention here. The change sparked a desire to fix things with her, but only because she realized that she had to deal with deep resentments that she had already told me to be unjustified.

I'm sure that others will disagree, but my brother found that the divorced life was completely different than either of us expected. Look at the stats for your age. Considering that so many men his age marry younger women, which he found distasteful, he has been quite surprised.


----------



## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Allow me to summarize.



> Stuck with a husband she didn't love. Committed to me at 20, the only man she has made love to.





> healing a 24 year relationship





> 12 year old indiscretion




She married at 20. Had her 2nd child at 32. She's now 44.

At 32 she started "w.h.o.r.i.n.g at meat markets" for the summer. 

She had a 3rd child between 32 and 39 years old.

No sex with you for the past 5 or so years. 


You say she didnt love you. And you guarantee she never had any bodily fluids exchanged with another man.


----------



## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

Thats pretty concrete. I understand. I think you should divorce her and move on. Take the kids.


----------



## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

From the story, I can't help but wonder if during the w.h.o.r.i.n.g time if she met someone, or hooked up with a group and has been cheating on the side with them ever since- hence the no sex part. She lives at home etc, but is going someplace else for her needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MrK said:


> I don't think there was sex. I can almost guarantee it. I doubt there were handjobs. And if there was kissing, which there HAD to have been, it was light and spur of the moment "innocent". I doubt there were even heavy make-out sessions.


On what do you base these conclusions? The circumstantial evidence is far far worse than what you believe. Do you have solid evidence contrary to the circumstantial evidence?



MrK said:


> My wife knows I won't leave. And instead of using that knowledge to work with me to make our lives better for the rest of forever, she continues to pull away.


I'm gonna have to say No **** Sherlock. Been there, Done that, wore the "Doormat" T-shirt for 15 years. I was the best husband ever. I gave her every benefit of the doubt. I avoided arguing about minor things because they were so unimportant in the big picture. I avoided real conflict on the big things because the over-arching goal was to avoid blowing up the marriage.

The wife detects immediately when the husband takes divorce off of the table. Things will only get worse for you.

Your kids are going to learn a terribly dysfunctional model of marriage and family life. You are doing them no favors bringing them up in the kind of household you have now, not to mention how it is going to be when you move into another bedroom and become a total doormat to your wife. The kids will learn that the proper way to deal with conflict is let yourself be trampled.

IMO if your marriage is not good enough on it's own merits to continue, you should get divorced. The kids should be no more of a consideration than a tie-breaker. This is based on my own experience of staying for the kids. I lost all influence over the marriage relationship. I lost all influence over parenting. My kids lost respect for me. My eldest daughter (now 22) felt abandoned and unprotected by me.

As soon as I approached my wife with a heartfelt appeal to fix the marriage but with the alternative being an explicit ending of the marriage, she made a big turn around. She had motivation to consider me and my needs for the first time since the wedding.


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Thank you everyone for your responses. I need to hear it all. However, I can't divorce my wife over any of this. If everyone got divorced just because a wife fell out of love with there husband there would be no marriages. I need to stay with my wife without going insane. She doesn't show me love or intimacy. Boo hoo. Poor me. I'm not going to destroy 4 other lives over it.

Can I please hear from other voices besides the "dump the trap" crowd? How do I get her to talk to me? How do I get her to tell me her true feelings so I know if they can be fixed? How do I get her to open up about that old post-partum clubbing spree she went on?

It's funny. When I first came on these forums to try to find out if I had reason to be worried about these GNO's, I got A LOT of responders telling me I am a jealouse controlling p.r.i.c.k for having a problem with this. "Some women do just want to go out and have fun with their girlfriends, you know". And now I'm being told that, beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt, that she had multiple sex partners that summer.

Ladies? Can anyone help? Something like, "yes, I'd go to clubs to party with strange me, have them buy me drinks, dance, flirt, but I NEVER had sex with them. I was married". Anyone?

I doubt my wife had intercourse back then. She got caught up in a lifestyle her toxic friend introduced her to. It was bad, but not end-of-marriage bad. I have no reason to believe she has had affairs in the intervening years. 

I don't know what to do. Please help.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

MrK said:


> Thank you everyone for your responses. I need to hear it all. However, I can't divorce my wife over any of this. If everyone got divorced just because a wife fell out of love with there husband there would be no marriages. I need to stay with my wife without going insane. She doesn't show me love or intimacy. Boo hoo. Poor me. I'm not going to destroy 4 other lives over it.
> 
> Can I please hear from other voices besides the "dump the trap" crowd? How do I get her to talk to me? How do I get her to tell me her true feelings so I know if they can be fixed? How do I get her to open up about that old post-partum clubbing spree she went on?
> 
> ...


I don't think I did a good job of explaining my last post, because it wasn't meant to suggest divorce as your only option. It was meant to state that the open ended promise of never being willing to to expect equal responsibility in the marriage happiness will only reinforce the current status quo.

When people think about a past incident, we often forget about the subtleties of the exhanges that occurred at that time. Women are very intuitive. Even if you didn't say anything about her club-hopping, she knew how you felt. Why else would you get the backside silence from her when she came to bed? So this incredible tension went unresolved. It was easier to forget it.

Just like she read you then, she's reading you now. She knows that you are a given, and knows that your continued silence is a given. All the letters you can write won't make her think that your status is ever going to change. And because there is an near 100% chance that she knows that you are still wounded over that past incident, and will be until it is resolved, nothing is going anywhere, short of an external stimulus, like some event that brings you back together. This is merely my opinion, and I know it can be wrong - I'm only trying to help.

That same intuitive radar will pick up on it if you decide that you will not allow the status quo. Even if you pledge in your heart that in X months, you will begin to ask her every night at 7:00 PM about the club activities until the day you die, she will know that something has changed in MrK. She'll start to participate in the marriage when she knows that you will not take non-participation on her part as an option. There's many ways to accomplish this. You can develop a great personal life apart from her, where you are married, and she knows that the way to participate is to join you as a partner. You can move to another bedroom, and make it very visible when you invite your joint friends and family over very regularly. You can invite her to marriage counseling through asking her over breakfast every morning, telling her that you want to work through the unresolved infidelity. Given that a very slim percentage of people will automatically think that the lifestyle of that summer could be so ambivalent as you propose, you can stand for the need to work through the issue with full confidence. But you were the one who said that you couldn't take this for another 30 to 40 years. I would love to see you get the happiness that you deserve with her.

BTW - I asked my wife about amnesia. She's not a full fledged doctor, but a nurse practioner who treates patients who are suffering from degenerative conditions that are life threatening. Unless a biologically driven disease is present, we don't completely forget things that we deliberately set out to do over a span of time, UNLESS extreme trauma occurred at those events. So, if she wants to stick to this story, she should be evaluated my medical professionals, or psychologist to understand what happened that she is hiding.

I'll stay away from posting on it any more. Sorry to offend in the previous posts.


----------



## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

If she won't tell you what happened, you will most likely never know. 

I don't see how you can build a good future if you continue to dwell on discovery of what occured 12 years ago

One choice is to accept that you'll never know all the details and put the past behind you and work on the present/future. Are you ok with that decision? Doesn't sound like it from the title of this thread.

I would be more concerned that she currently isn't showing you love and intimacy


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MrK said:


> Can I please hear from other voices besides the "dump the trap" crowd? How do I get her to talk to me? How do I get her to tell me her true feelings so I know if they can be fixed? How do I get her to open up about that old post-partum clubbing spree she went on?


Fear. You have to make her fear divorce. Fear losing her banker, her home fixer-upper, her security backstop. She has to know things are on the precipice, and she has to believe that the only possible chance of getting a good outcome is for her to become completely honest, because if you have any doubt about her complete honesty you will pull the plug.

I have not seen any situation where any other motivation has worked to get a wife to cut the crap and get to the real bottom line.

Saving the marriage is an honorable goal. But you can't be Nice enough to cause her to reciprocate.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Thor said:


> Fear. You have to make her fear divorce. Fear losing her banker, her home fixer-upper, her security backstop. She has to know things are on the precipice, and she has to believe that the only possible chance of getting a good outcome is for her to become completely honest, because if you have any doubt about her complete honesty you will pull the plug.
> 
> I have not seen any situation where any other motivation has worked to get a wife to cut the crap and get to the real bottom line.
> 
> Saving the marriage is an honorable goal. But you can't be Nice enough to cause her to reciprocate.


Remember that you can't make her do anything that she does not want to do. You can't make her talk to you, tell you what is wrong, or tell you what happened those many years ago. She will only do that if she wants to do it.

So, if you are unwilling to leave her, and your efforts to talk to her have not worked, perhaps you need to destabilize the relationship. Sit her down and ask her about what she did on the GNO's way back when. Tell her why you need this information to move on to better the marriage. If she won't tell you, tell her things will need to change. Then disengage. Do things for yourself. Do not hang around or be available as much. Also, get counseling for yourself to help you get through these issues.

Finally, I am very curious to know why you (1) won't ever leave her; and (2) why you are certain that she did not even kiss anyone during the clubbing summer.


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Thanks TAG. Let me just use your post to finish this thread out. Hard to believe that after 2+ years on this and other forums, after all of the reading and soul searching I've done in that time, this thread was the best I could come up with to fix my life. No magic bullet. Darn. I guess you can see why 6 weeks of preparing to talk to her over two years ago didn't work out.



Tall Average Guy said:


> I am very curious to know why you won't ever leave her.


Divorce is off of the table because I love my family. I love my home, my neighborhood. And yes, I love the security it all provides. And I love my kids to the point that I can live through this if it would make them happier. They are not affected by this. And even if they are, it is not even close to what their life would be with our family split up. It's not going to happen. Not if I can help it. My wife and I can even be happy as long as we're not communicating on anything important. I can live with that. 

However, my wife does not love me anymore. Is it possible to rekindle a relationship that is this far gone? Absolutely. But it has to be done with both parties trying hard. My wife has already proven she has no interest in doing that. I'm pretty much done. I'm not going to let myself get close to her again only to have her prove again that 3 hours of TV per evening is more important than time with me. 



Tall Average Guy said:


> … disengage. Do things for yourself. Do not hang around or be available as much.


You were specifically talking about this being my response to her refusal to discuss the past infidelity with me. But that refusal is just a symptom of the bigger picture. There is nothing in it for her to make her willing to talk. Why should she go through that to help a marriage she doesn't really want anyhow? However, you hit it on the head with this simple statement. You and all of the other hundreds of posters who tell people to fix themselves via man-up/180. It's what I need to do. THAT is my alternative to divorce, I just never realized it. Or maybe I did but was too scared to start, I don't know. But I do need to start. Make myself better for me and my kids. If she wants to come along, great, but…. I'll try to do it right. Follow the discussions and literature available here.



Tall Average Guy said:


> Remember that you can't make her do anything that she does not want to do. You can't make her talk to you, tell you what is wrong, or tell you what happened those many years ago. She will only do that if she wants to do it.


My dream is to be at a place where my wife values my happiness over everything except that of her children. The way I am (was?) with her. That she will do anything in her power to help me, no matter how uncomfortable and/or embarrassing. 'Till death do us part, and all of that. We'll see what happens. Let's just say it's not "plan A".



Tall Average Guy said:


> why you are certain that she did not even kiss anyone during the clubbing summer.


I came to this and other sites over two years ago to deal with this issue. Yes, the part about her not loving me was there, but the clubbing was engrossing me at the time. I have been asking the same questions on these forums, in many ways, over all of that time. I have followed other threads on the subject. When I came here looking for answers then, there was very much a "let go of her leash, man. Give her some freedom" feel to the issue. I think most people here today, a couple of years later, would agree that, under most circumstances, a couple of married girls closing down the nightclubs a couple of times a month is a bad idea. The mindset of 2 years ago would be that it is all innocent fun. In this thread I'm being told to leave the cheating skank. Who is right?

In my discussions, there were responders who were adamant that they had innocent nights out, so my wife very well could have also. It can happen. But if you profile the actions of the innocent "we really ARE just going dancing" crowd on one side and those that went out with the intent of partying with strange men on the other, there is no doubt as to which side my wife fell on.

So, you ask how I can be so sure my wife never even kissed anyone that summer. If I'm admitting that she's already on the "bad" side of that spectrum, then I should HOPE that all she did was suck face all night then go home. People on that side of the spectrum go to these places for a lot more than that, and a willing attractive girl and her hot wing woman surely succeeded each night, right? But I don't think that was it. The toxic friend pulled her into a temporary "thing". She got sucked into the excitement of it. There was a little kissing at most, maybe, but I'll never know. Whatever you have to do to make "get drunk for $0" work. I've already started some research on that. Early signs are actually somewhat encouraging. 

Anyhow, that's a blip. I will need to deal with it, but I can kick that can down the road a little at a time for a while. I need to fix me. Fix my job. Fix my physical home and yard. Improve my relationship with my kids AND wife. I'm not fully letting her out of this yet. I'll follow the man-up threads and do it right. I hope. I used to think that relationships can never get back to where they once were when this kind of a disconnect happens. And I used to use that as an excuse to not even try. But I'm still living my one and only shot at this life thing, so I'm not giving up. So, the relationship will never be the same. How about "almost as good". I'll even take "a little better" for now. 

But sooner or later, I'm still going to have to pick up that can.


----------



## Lovely71 (Nov 24, 2011)

OMG. Do you hear yourselves? I had never heard of an EA until here. WTF? Then I get accused of one. Do you guys ever think you are over analyzing things? That if you men and women are not stepping up to the plate, it falls apart. We have friends and social networks who are there to do that. Maybe they do not conform to the standards of yesterday but today there are no rules. 

Are you guys doing what you should be within your marriages to make them work? Start thinking about the last time you asked your wife about her day? Kissed her before work? Took her to dinner, a hotel and had amazing sex cuz you ****ing wanted her like hell. Had spontaneous sex during the day or called her home cuz you wanted to be with her? Bet you can't! You think you're all that but I would hazard a bet the friendship and sexual adventure/spontaneity part of the marriage is sorely lacking. That is what goes downhill. You take your relationship for granted and start living separate lives and you expect it to survive. 

So, mrk 12 yrs ago and you are still harping on this. Your marriage is going strong. Do you see a problem here? EA = extreme azz not emotional affair because these labels are going to be a downfall of alot of marriages where there was no cheating involved. Marriages just need to realize what is missing. Stop blaming others!


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Thanks Lovely. How appropriate that someone currently blaming her husband for her own affair would come all the way to my thread to blame me for my wife's infidelity. Guess what girls, we don't understand you. If I'm doing something wrong, come to me to work on it. Don't go looking for what you want in 100+ text, multi-hour cell phone conversation per day affairs. Or inappropriate social settings until all hours of the night.

Since I'm back, I'd might as well give an update. Not that I think my story is so interesting, but I still need help.

I thought about it and changed my mind on the 180. I love my wife and she loves me. Our love is not the same for each other, but it's love none the less. I knew that I was at a point where I could either pull away (again), or close the divide (again). Pulling away means uncomfortable cold extended silences between us. Less laughter in the house. No sex. And no expectation that anything will change. The opposite is a LOT nicer. There will never be husband-wife love between us again. But it can be very close. And unlimited sex goes a LONG way as a tie-breaker.

I know that I can be a man my wife can love and love to be with. I know that if I give myself to her 100%, if I continue to be the man she once loved MINUS a lot of the negative I learned about over these past two years, I can win her back. Not the same, but close enough. Better in some ways. Overall pretty good. A life we can share and be happy in as our grandkids visit us in our one happy house, on every holiday, not every other one. I still need to concentrate on me, but I''m going bring my wife along. I have to. I owe my family that.

But I CAN'T give her 100%. That summer from long ago still nags at me almost daily. What was she looking for? What did she find? Where did she go? Who did she meet? How did she act? What went on? Thinking fond memories of gorgeous men she had been partying with just an hour prior, after coming to bed and turning her back to me with barely a "good night". Does she still think of any of them? They were physically perfect with zero character flaws and unlimited potential and they wanted HER! 

How do I get around that? I went 10 years being the same old crap husband vs. the fantasies she created while out on her excursions. I need closure on this but she won't give it to me. And I won't ever be able to give to this relationship what it needs to work with this standing between us. I don't know what to do. I'm back where I started.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MrK, I'll go back to where I started. She needs the ultimate motivation. She needs it to be worse to stay quiet than to answer your questions.

It will be difficult for her to answer you. She probably is embarrassed, feels guilty, and wishes it could just go away. She probably has no idea that it could just go away if she would just be fully honest with you. She may feel that any further revelations from her will only make things worse or that you will then hold those additional details over her forever.

I think what you have written is a boundary for you. You cannot remain married to a woman who will not be fully honest about her past infidelities.

Are you really comparing realities when you look at the future with your grandkids vs the kind of marriage you can achieve? What I'm getting at is are you looking at the ideal marriage vs some horrible divorce? That would not be realistic. What is the likely real marriage you will have if either she reveals all or she reveals nothing? How would those situations compare to your life realistically if you were to divorce?

That last was all about you, not how to get your wife to open up. But it sets the field of play that you are willing to work within.

Because I think that she needs the fear of losing it all before she will possibly open up. I think a carrot - stick approach may be workable. Tell her what you wrote about your vision of the great relationship and family life you desire *with her*. But tell her it is not possible with these nagging insecurities and unanswered questions. You cannot promise more than working 100% on the hardest stuff to make that vision possible, but you can promise that the vision cannot happen without her putting forth her 100%.

If she knows that the option is to become fully open and honest or you will no longer remain married to her, she may finally have motivation.

If she doesn't respect you or want the marriage enough to be honest with you, your vision is not attainable. I sincerely hope you can reach her because you want what will be best for the extended family. I don't think you are being unreasonable or selfish.


----------



## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Lovely71 said:


> OMG. Do you hear yourselves? I had never heard of an EA until here. WTF? Then I get accused of one. Do you guys ever think you are over analyzing things? That if you men and women are not stepping up to the plate, it falls apart. We have friends and social networks who are there to do that. Maybe they do not conform to the standards of yesterday *but today there are no rules. *
> 
> Are you guys doing what you should be within your marriages to make them work? Start thinking about the last time you asked your wife about her day? Kissed her before work? Took her to dinner, a hotel and had amazing sex cuz you ****ing wanted her like hell. Had spontaneous sex during the day or called her home cuz you wanted to be with her? Bet you can't! You think you're all that but I would hazard a bet the friendship and sexual adventure/spontaneity part of the marriage is sorely lacking. That is what goes downhill. You take your relationship for granted and start living separate lives and you expect it to survive.
> 
> So, mrk 12 yrs ago and you are still harping on this. Your marriage is going strong. Do you see a problem here? EA = extreme azz not emotional affair because these labels are going to be a downfall of alot of marriages where there was no cheating involved. Marriages just need to realize what is missing. Stop blaming others!


No rules = no boundaries = no marriage


Not understanding what an EA is is not anything to feel good about. I was in one. If one is inot to having EAs that is really not a monogamous relationship.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

MrK said:


> You were specifically talking about this being my response to her refusal to discuss the past infidelity with me. But that refusal is just a symptom of the bigger picture. There is nothing in it for her to make her willing to talk. Why should she go through that to help a marriage she doesn't really want anyhow? However, you hit it on the head with this simple statement. You and all of the other hundreds of posters who tell people to fix themselves via man-up/180. It's what I need to do. THAT is my alternative to divorce, I just never realized it. Or maybe I did but was too scared to start, I don't know. But I do need to start. Make myself better for me and my kids. If she wants to come along, great, but…. I'll try to do it right. Follow the discussions and literature available here.


I hope this is helpful. Part of the disengaging is to help yourself. You seem to want your wife to give you something (closure) that she is unable or unwilling to give you. That is making you miserable. Disengaging helps you take care of yourself. 

It also makes sense on a fairness level. You have clearly communicated that this information is a critical need for you. And she has just as clearly communicated that she is not willing to meet that need. If that is the case, I don't see why you are required to go out of your way to meet her needs. If you are not willing to get a divorce (which, by the way, is a terrible example you are teaching your kids, but that is another story), then what other choice do you have.




> I came to this and other sites over two years ago to deal with this issue. Yes, the part about her not loving me was there, but the clubbing was engrossing me at the time. I have been asking the same questions on these forums, in many ways, over all of that time. I have followed other threads on the subject. When I came here looking for answers then, there was very much a "let go of her leash, man. Give her some freedom" feel to the issue. I think most people here today, a couple of years later, would agree that, under most circumstances, a couple of married girls closing down the nightclubs a couple of times a month is a bad idea. The mindset of 2 years ago would be that it is all innocent fun. In this thread I'm being told to leave the cheating skank. Who is right?
> 
> In my discussions, there were responders who were adamant that they had innocent nights out, so my wife very well could have also. It can happen. But if you profile the actions of the innocent "we really ARE just going dancing" crowd on one side and those that went out with the intent of partying with strange men on the other, there is no doubt as to which side my wife fell on.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the explanation. While I am not sure this is convincing to me, I better understand where you are coming from.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Lovely71 said:


> I had never heard of an EA until here. WTF? Then I get accused of one. Do you guys ever think you are over analyzing things?


Go to Google and type in "Emotional". One of the handful of options offered by Google to complete your search term will be "Emotional Affair". It is that common of a term. We did not make it up on this board. Wiki "Emotional Affair" to better understand what it is.

Cell phones, texting, FB, and mails, now make it easier than ever before for people to emotionally leave their marriages for another person. Whereas in the past, before the EA, you may have turned to your spouse in conversation, you hide from your spouse and share that conversation with another. Over time your spouse is on the outside looking in on you and your AP on the inside.

Although there is debate on this forum and elsewhere as to if an EA is as serious an offense to a marriage as a PA, there is little debate (accept by people currently in emotional affairs) that it is a serious form of cheating.

Lovely71, as an FYI, I have followed your other posts and what you are doing is definitely an EA that your husband has every right to be upset about. You cannot have 3 in a marriage. Work on your marriage if you can or leave, but stop the cheating with the OM first before you decide.


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Thor said:


> Fear.


Not fear of divorce, though. Even if she could be convinced I was serious, which you NEED to be when threatening divorce, and which I could NOT pull off even if I wanted to, she'd still say "bring it on". The courts would love her. She did nothing wrong. And she would just be getting out of a marriage she wouldn't care so much about losing anyhow. 

No, fear of humiliation. I actually have two close friends that may have some inside information for me. It would involve old memories and in the case of one friend, very limited potential return in the form of info. But at this point I'll take anything that may help me find out what went on back then. 

The toxic friend's ex-husband is my closest friend. They were married back when all of this happened.



MrK said:


> My wife’s partner in crime was the wife in one of the couples we were close friends with. Her husband was (still is) a close friend of mine. I like to drink in bars. Always have. The feel of it. The conversation. Just being out with people. My friend never did. His philosophy is why spend $5.00 on a beer when his fridge is filled with ones he just paid $1.00 each for? We rarely went out for that reason. Not so his wife. She would go out regularly and drink at bars and clubs until closing. Sometimes with friends, sometimes she'd sneak out alone. I've never talked to him about it (his wife's escapades were only alluded to in whispers among outside observers, if it was discussed at all), but I'm pretty sure he agreed to it because she didn't spend any money while she was out. I'll let you figure out for yourselves how she would do it. I'll give you a hint: she was pretty hot back then. Still is. They have since divorced.


I don't know the details of their marriage and eventual divorce. I don't know how much her extensive carousing at nightclubs and bars was discussed. The only way his wife could go out as much as she did when he had that attitude about spending money at bars was for her to agree that she wouldn't pay for them. I doubt she did. And I don't know how you have a wife that did this as much as she did and not go crazy over it. There had to be discussions. He probably remembers when my wife went out with her. They may have talked about it. Of all of our friends at the time, the last one you would guess to be a conisseur of "get drunk for free" at the bars would be my wife. Minimum, I can ask him about what his wife told him about her nights out. He could even have specific details of what she did with my wife.

The other friend ran into her one night while out. I could ask him about how she was acting. Maybe he saw something before she saw him. I have no doubt they ditched him early with a yawn and a stretch and a "we're just so tired... goodnight". Only to go to another bar where the husbands friends won't cramp their style. But I can also guarantee that my friend got home before they did and noticed her car still gone. And there's a good chance he remembers all that. The two pretty wives of two close friends lie in order to ditch him and go party elsewhere?

The negatives to me are obvious. I look like a ***** to my two close friends and there's a potential that it will leak out to our wider circle. Bad for me, total humiliation for her. Before I do it I may talk to her and give her one last chance to talk. 

I don't know. I'm going OK on my style of 180. My main difference is I'm still going for the sex. I know I shouldn't, but I'm still in the marriage and she's willing, so why not. Things are going OK as long as we don't talk. Problem is I will need to talk eventually. About our marriage in general, this problem of mine specifically. Once I do, I go back to square one. I'm just that little wimp who couldn't handle a little freedom of hers so many years ago. Can't just get a (pretty good) BJ every now and then and let the rest go. As soon as I do that the 180 goes out the window. I'm on my way to her starting to like the new me a little. As soon as I start talking about my feelings, emotions and problems, she's gone.

I can toughen it up. Remove my emotions. Just lay it out there. But it'll make me look weak none the less. I can't leave her and I can''t fix this. It's a lose-lose.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

MrK said:


> Not fear of divorce, though. Even if she could be convinced I was serious, which you NEED to be when threatening divorce, and which I could NOT pull off even if I wanted to, she'd still say "bring it on". The courts would love her. She did nothing wrong. And she would just be getting out of a marriage she wouldn't care so much about losing anyhow.


Then why do you want to be married to this person? Aren't you worth being married to someone that actually wants to be married to you?



> I don't know. I'm going OK on my style of 180. My main difference is I'm still going for the sex. I know I shouldn't, but I'm still in the marriage and she's willing, so why not. Things are going OK as long as we don't talk. Problem is I will need to talk eventually. About our marriage in general, this problem of mine specifically. Once I do, I go back to square one. I'm just that little wimp who couldn't handle a little freedom of hers so many years ago. Can't just get a (pretty good) BJ every now and then and let the rest go. As soon as I do that the 180 goes out the window. I'm on my way to her starting to like the new me a little. As soon as I start talking about my feelings, emotions and problems, she's gone.


Naturally. You start looking after yourself, quit being a doormat, and you become more attractive to her. You start whining about your feelings and how she hurt them however many years ago and you become unattractive.

It seems to me you have three options:
1. Buck up and tell her if she does not give you the details you are going to walk;
2. Buck up and realize that you aren't going to get the details, deal with it and work on what you have left of the marriage the best that you can; or
3. Continue to whine and beg, where you still won't get the answers, she will continue to find you unattractive and eventually may decide she wants to go elsewhere anyway.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but you need to realize that life is not fair and that you can't make her give you this information. Since she is not interested in doing the job, you need to look after yourself and do what is right for you.

Finally note - remember that you are raising kids. They learn not just by what you tell them, but by what they see. They see the type of marriage you have, and are learning that this is acceptable. Ask yourself if that is what you want to be teaching them?


----------



## newwife07 (Jan 11, 2011)

MrK said:


> Ladies? Can anyone help? Something like, "yes, I'd go to clubs to party with strange me, have them buy me drinks, dance, flirt, but I NEVER had sex with them. I was married". Anyone?
> 
> .


I occasionally go out with my girlfriends (at 25, I married young for my city, so all my friends are single) and when i am in a group of girlfriends and a guy buys us drinks, I'll drink it. But they always see my wedding ring and while I'm very friendly, even flirtatious at times (which I think is fine in a healthy marriage, as long as it's innocent), I always end the night by saying, "Well, I'm going to go meet my husband now, nice meeting you." And that's it. I'm loyal committed to my husband and love him very much, and I don't think there's anything wrong with enjoying a night out with my girlfriends (or he with his buddies) while I'm still in my twenties.


----------



## newwife07 (Jan 11, 2011)

But also, it's clear that you have major communication issues and you're letting her treat you like crap. You have kids so it's hard to take time away, but I think that's what you really need. Just forget about her for a specific amount of time, focus on yourself, and come back to the relationship with a clearer head and great ability to problem solve, whatever the solution may be.


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

newwife07 said:


> But also, it's clear that you have major communication issues and you're letting her treat you like crap. You have kids so it's hard to take time away, but I think that's what you really need. Just forget about her for a specific amount of time, focus on yourself, and come back to the relationship with a clearer head and great ability to problem solve, whatever the solution may be.


Thanks NW7. I realize now what I have to do. You basically gave a crib notes description of a 180. I have been doing that with exceptons. The major one is sex. She'll give me all I want as long as I shut up and pretend everything is OK. Well, everything is not OK. She actually came on to me this weekend after I hadn't initiated in a week. One of the first times ever. I tried to resist but am weak. That needs to end. Not only does she have me by the balls this way (literally), but sex with her is closer to prostitution or slavery than love. She actually prefers to perform oral because she doesn't have to hide the fact that she's not into it. I don't even TRY to please her any more. 20 years and it is still obvious that she doesn't care. Just wants me to finish as quickly as possible. 

Are you getting this? A man, unlimited BJ's, no need to work at pleasing her, AND I don't have to talk about feelings. And I have a problem with this? Some little things happened this past week that had her questioning the strength of our relationship. I think initiating the sex, after she saw I was not going to, was a ploy to stay in control. I can't let that happen any more. I need to remove myself from her.



newwife07 said:


> I occasionally go out with my girlfriends...and when i am in a group of girlfriends and a guy buys us drinks, I'll drink it. But they always see my wedding ring and while I'm very friendly, even flirtatious at times (which I think is fine in a healthy marriage, as long as it's innocent), I always end the night by saying, "Well, I'm going to go meet my husband now, nice meeting you." And that's it. I'm loyal committed to my husband and love him very much, and I don't think there's anything wrong with enjoying a night out with my girlfriends (or he with his buddies) while I'm still in my twenties.


I don't even know why I asked the question that resulted in this response. I even mentioned earlier in this thread that there is a difference in actions of a wife going out for innocent fun with her friends and ones looking to attract male attention. You mentioned a couple of items in this response that differ from how my wife acted. I'll guarantee if ran the whole list of red flag actions concerning the way my wife handled it, you would have to admit that you didn't act that way. There's NO WAY it was innocent. Why else would she tell me she doesn't remember?

While trying to fix my marriage over the past 2+ years, my wife said everything she needed to to let me know it was all my fault. When I came to her looking for help fixing all of these problems, she went into defensive mode and actually made some serious accusation of me to eplain why she didn't love me, why she doesn't enjoy sex with me. Never an explanation as to why she didn't let me know it was happening. Stuff that's pretty hard to sweep under the rug. But I can work on that. I don't like it, but we have kids. And as long as I can live with her, I will.

But I can't get over her continued lies about the old infidelity. The men she partied with, danced with, flirted with. Where did she go all of those nights until 2:20AM? (She never even told me WHERE SHE WENT, and I didn't question it because I was afraid to appear controlling and jealous) Did she slow dance with these men? Little drunken kisses? Did she meet up with the same men on different weekends? I know they spent no money. How far do you have to go with men to get them to keep buying you drinks? 

And when she would come home, she'd brush her teeth, crawl into bed next to me, turn her back, say a quick "good-night" then go into her "I'm asleep, don't talk to me mode". Ignoring me while she had fresh memories of giving all her attention to pretty boys that had no faults and wanted her only an hour prior.

No, I can't live with this any longer. She won't talk. We can't split up. She's living in her own little world where she was the perfect wife and I screwed up to end the marriage. Although there is some truth there, her not working with me to fix it is the problem. Her not even telling me there was a problem is the biggest problem. 

But I never cheated on her. And to refuse to talk to me about this particular problem is the last straw. I will continue my 180 until I can't take it any longer. Then I will have a nice long (one-way) conversation with her. I'll tell her how the way she treated me over the past two plus years (15 years?) is bull****, and I will include a long, detailed description about how I know she is lying about what happened back then and not remembering it. She's hurting me a second time by refusing to help me.

My marriage is over anyhow. I might as well act like it. I'll remove the sex from my 180 plan. Make it complete. When we have this talk it will end the 180, but by then she will know I am serious when I refuse sex for another month. 

Three years ago I thought I had a great marriage. Now it's in the crapper. Damn, I hate this.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

MrK said:


> Thanks NW7. I realize now what I have to do. You basically gave a crib notes description of a 180. I have been doing that with exceptons. The major one is sex. She'll give me all I want as long as I shut up and pretend everything is OK. Well, everything is not OK. She actually came on to me this weekend after I hadn't initiated in a week. One of the first times ever. I tried to resist but am weak. That needs to end. Not only does she have me by the balls this way (literally), but sex with her is closer to prostitution or slavery than love. She actually prefers to perform oral because she doesn't have to hide the fact that she's not into it. I don't even TRY to please her any more. 20 years and it is still obvious that she doesn't care. Just wants me to finish as quickly as possible.


Why would you subject yourself to this? Do you think that little of yourself that you deserve this pain?



> But I never cheated on her. And to refuse to talk to me about this particular problem is the last straw. I will continue my 180 until I can't take it any longer. Then I will have a nice long (one-way) conversation with her. I'll tell her how the way she treated me over the past two plus years (15 years?) is bull****, and I will include a long, detailed description about how I know she is lying about what happened back then and not remembering it. She's hurting me a second time by refusing to help me.
> 
> My marriage is over anyhow. I might as well act like it. I'll remove the sex from my 180 plan. Make it complete. When we have this talk it will end the 180, but by then she will know I am serious when I refuse sex for another month.
> 
> Three years ago I thought I had a great marriage. Now it's in the crapper. Damn, I hate this.


Exactly how will this do any good? You have admitted that you won't leave your marriage. Your wife certainly knows that. Based on your characterization of your sex life, I fully expect her to jump up and down (at least privately) when you take it off the table. And once you try to talk to her about it again, she will clam up and continue to not give you any information. So you are back where you started - you being pissed off but still not willing to leave the marriage.

The 180 can be good for you. I think you need it to gain the strength to leave your marriage. You don't have a marriage right now. You know that and write it in the quote above. You just need to accept it, and move on so that you can heal.

You talked earlier about your kids. Think of them when you do this - what are you teaching them? They will know things are not right. They will over hear the conversations you have with your wife. They will figure out roughly what you are angry about. And if you stick around in the current situation, you will be teaching them that this is acceptable in a marriage.


----------



## SolidSnake (Dec 6, 2011)

Hello,

OP asked earlier if some of the ladies think its ok to go out clubbing, dancing and drinking while married and without your spouse. 

Deffinitly, NO! That is terrible behavior for couples to engage in....her doing it, and your condoning it. It leads to the developement of a secret second life, which cleary happend in your case. If couples absolutely insist on going to clubs they should go together. Even if her doing this didn't particularly bother you, and she wasn't picking up men, it still takes time away from the relationship and activities you could be doing together. It would not have been Neanderthal in any way to ask her to stop doing that! 

There is WAY to much insitance on independance in marriage now a days, to the detriment of married couples. Everything one partner does effects the other and the quality of the relationship. Marriage is a strictly interdependant relationship. If one partner makes demands and insists on doing something independantly, like it or not, its a huge problem. It means that the independant partner cares about their own feelings more than their partner's and they don't care about how their selfish bahavior hurts the realtioship. 

Your wife seems guilty of a lot of selfish behavior.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Lovely71 said:


> OMG. Do you hear yourselves? I had never heard of an EA until here. WTF? Then I get accused of one. Do you guys ever think you are over analyzing things? *That if you men and women are not stepping up to the plate, it falls apart.* We have friends and social networks who are there to do that. Maybe they do not conform to the standards of yesterday but today there are no rules.
> 
> Are you guys doing what you should be within your marriages to make them work? Start thinking about the last time you asked your wife about her day? Kissed her before work? Took her to dinner, a hotel and had amazing sex cuz you ****ing wanted her like hell. Had spontaneous sex during the day or called her home cuz you wanted to be with her? Bet you can't! You think you're all that but I would hazard a bet the friendship and sexual adventure/spontaneity part of the marriage is sorely lacking. That is what goes downhill. You take your relationship for granted and start living separate lives and you expect it to survive.
> 
> So, mrk 12 yrs ago and you are still harping on this. Your marriage is going strong. Do you see a problem here? EA = extreme azz not emotional affair because these labels are going to be a downfall of alot of marriages where there was no cheating involved. Marriages just need to realize what is missing. Stop blaming others!


One thing to remember is that people need to be realistic that a partner may not be able to satisfy every need that you have....My finance's EA was in your face; constantly sparring with him; constantly asking about our sex life. when I ask him if that is suitable behaviour for a friendship, he really has nothing to say.

Tell me, what plate should I have been stepping up to?


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Sorry this is long winded. I think the reason you can not get past this is very explainable. I had a similar situation years back. My wife is the best but many years back when we were just first dating something happened and it was horrible, the "in my face" flirting part really made me feel so small but she never admitted to infidelity and I got past it. 
I guess she made her mistake and then somehow realized that I was the one for her. Actually she realized the life of parties and excessive alcohol, and some nasty drugs and impaired desicions was option 1 and me who she had this magical connection with was option 2. Anyway I always suspected and would press sometimes but she always denied it. I even pressed seven years later before we married becauase I really wanted to beleive her when she denied it but she just could not look innocent. She looked so guilty while denying it. 

13-14 years after the actual thing and 7 years into a great marriage, I felt stupid because this would pop back up in my head and I didn't know why so I read a lot of these types of forums and psycology post and I finally understood why it would NOT go away. I needed confess and to not filter anything. I had to have the terrible details and your wife will not give you those. I layed everything out on the table and told my wife that I did not trust her because I knew it was a lie and that it kept me from loving her the way I should. Our marriage was not strong without trust no matter what we wanted to think and I did not trust that she was telling me the truth. 

Let me say before I go further, that she has been so wonderful ever since that ONE thing but I still could not let it go and I knew there was a wedge between us. Best girlfriend, best fiance, best wife was not enough. 

The problem was AND YOUR PROBLEM IS. You can not move past it until you know what it was. Remember she has every detail. You only have little pieces. If you can get your wife to understand that you deserve to hear the plain simple truth no matter how much it hurts for you to hear or her to fess up to then that's the way to get over it. (Trust me I was so distressed about this I was considering leaving otherwise she may never have opened up.) She has to be responsible completely. Seriously no filtering of information. I mean don't ask for what you can't handle was he good, etc but really you have to get the trust back and the only way for that is if she stops trying to filter information. No half answers. No deception to make her feel less bad, no deception to spare your feelings. Just the HARD, TERRIBLE truth.

I would think the same in reverse if the man cheated. Just answer everything the victom asks you truthfully. But clamming up is a fast tract to no where.

My thoughts. She's got to talk and you have to know. I know I loved my wife dearly and she was so sorry for doing this just like I was alway so sorry for bringing it back up but eventually we understood what we had to do. I had to ask and she had to tell it all. Otherwise our wonderful relationship was not as wonderful as it should have been. It was freaking painful to hear and it's not gone but it has a better place. It's place is in the past. If I ever have to ask another question then I know she will answer it but I don't want to put her or me through it so hopeful it will not re-appear 5 years from now.

I hate emotions.

You guys who say don't tell because it will hurt them more. F-you. You are cowards afraid to answer for what you have done. You are the ones who can fix the problem for the victoms.


----------



## memyselfandi (Jan 10, 2012)

The biggest problem here...and with you..is the fact that she needs to come clean in order to make this work. If she doesn't..it will haunt you forever no matter HOW much counseling the two of you go through.


Some people can just let it go..and some can't..you being one of those that just can't. I understand as I've been there...

Reason being...How did she cheat and why? Was there something in the marriage that caused het to cheat? Who did she cheat with and how far did it go??

You can't go through counseling with the idea that there are things you can talk about but not ALL of them. The biggest thing you have to make out of marital couseling is to open up about EVERYTHING..in order to talk about it. Both of you need to hurt and move on..either with each other..or without.

With counseling..I hope you'll again find each other..and if not..at least you'll have a better idea of where you stand..get some closure..divorce..and move on with your life.

I wish you both the best and good luck.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Agree 100% with what memyselfandi stated.


----------



## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

You have to love yourself AND your marriage enough to be able to stand up to your boundaries. 

I bet if you packed your bags, stood at the door and said: "I will be back when you can find your memories", she will be coughing them up left and right. 

If you do not WANT to be a doormat, then do not be a doormat and do not let her walk all over you.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You guys do know this thread is almost eight months old? 

ZOMBIE THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> You guys do know this thread is almost eight months old?
> 
> ZOMBIE THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's still posting I think.


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

I am still here and I have the same problem. Hardly a zombie thread. Thanks everyone.


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Thundarr. 3 posts since you joined and they are all on my old thread. Interesting. And your situation sounds almost EXACTLY like mine. Even the time span where you threw down the gauntlet.

My wife has made it clear that discussing this again is a non-starter. That may be the final straw that causes her to leave. And what if I CAN'T handle the truth (presuming there was a chance in hell I could get her to talk).

I don't think we'll ever be close again. And I can't get over her going out to party with the boys way back then. Her and her toxic friend wingwoman. I get triggered by this all the time.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Well first off here is a link to something I think is pretty spot on regarding relationships and how to make them better and there is a chapter in there about honesty. It was the most useful thing I found, not for dealing with the past but it's more of a guide to how to make your marriage like it should be where you love each other and past mistakes do not repeat.

The Love Bank

There are people who think some things should be kept secret forever like if someone messed around once and will never do it again. Well if they can pull it off and no one is suspect and the guilt does not weigh too much then bravo. To be honest I would have had nothing to deal with had things added up. The problem is that things did not add up so there we are.

In your case you are suspicious so your wife lies to you because she is ashamed or embarrassed or does not want to take responsibility. I'm sorry but to me that was a deal breaker. The woman I loved with would not do that therefore I was loving a fictitious representation that I had created of her. 

If your wife lies then first of all "shame on her" and second it better be believable.

I do sense some denial. It just does not add up for her to keep quite if much more than you want to believe happened. In the end though the lying is more damaging than whatever took place but be prepared to realize you are not allowing yourself to believe what you kind of know already.


----------

