# Guys, I need your prespective



## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

So last week I thought my H and I can reconcile as he had agreed to go to counseling and told me nothing happened with him and the OW, that they had agree to stop it because she started having feelings for him. Well, guess what...I managed to opened his fake email account and found all his love emails to her, emails to a Chinese girl that he called my wife, emails he sent out to inquire for escort services while he's out of the country. I even got to chat with the OW using his messenger account and she really thought I was him and started calling him sweetheart, honey, how they had a fantastic weekend (he told me Saturday night that he had to go out of town but I did checked with the manager there and he wasn't there!)

At first I wanted to confront him at the counseling session but I just can't hold it in any longer and here's a copy of our chat today. 

_Me: Really, just go be with her since you obviously love her
H: I said I still want to go and still want to try, ur the one that keeps digging and u can even see that that email has not been used for a long time..this is just making it harder when u do this so if u want to just keep making urself upset then I can't stop u..but it still doesn't change the fact I want to try as long as you do..
Me: You spent the w'end with her. Whats the point of trying when u keep lying?
Me: I can't believe u can look me in the eyes and tell me nothing happened between the two of u
H: When did I spend the weekend with her..
Me: Please it hurts too much. I can't keep doing this. You wasn't in ***** (name of the town) yesterday
Me: U were with her together laughing see a movie together
Me: Please stop hurting me more. I cant take this anymore
H: Where and what movie did I go see...
Me: Does it even matter anymore what movie u watch?
H: Now who do u have spying on me now and in fact when I got home I was tired and even forgot my laptop in the car..ask *** (the driver's name) he saw I left it there...
Me: I did this because i cant trust u and i have a gut feeling u are still seeing her
Me: For once plz just tell me. U love your OW and u said so in ur emails.
H: Well whoever is doing it is not telling u right.. So unless u actually come and see for urself like I have told u to do, but u can't do that...
Me: No i dont need to see it
Me: And i did trust and hang on to every words u told me
H: Like I said it was after B (name of the country he went) that I talk with her and backed off..that's why u don't see any other email after that..(*but in February he still sending her emails!*)
Me: What more lies can u tell me to cover all that i saw on that email now?
Me: I just talked with her for god's sake! U are still seeing her so please! Just stop the lies 
H: U have done this by not leaving it alone.. I really want to try and make this work and if u have to keep doing things like this then its u who doesn't want it.. Like I told u to be patient but u just can't can u...
Me: How can i when u are still seeing her, telling her u love her????
Me: Yes just blame it all on me because you and i know its all my faults
Me: Next thing u know she'll get pregnant is that how long u want me to wait for? You are hurting me over and over again and u cant even see that don't u?
Me: Yes its me who doesn't want to work on this marriage by keep seeing someone else. Like i said keep blaming me
Me: Now i know me moving out only works for ur advantage. U're only sorry that u get caught, not sorry for hurting me but that's ok i can accept that now. Why should someone who's madly in love with his dream lover even care how his wife feels
H: I do care and If I didn't want it I would not have agreed to the counseling, I had so much to say tonight that would make u understand why I did some things and that I do still love u and want to be with u...
Me: How can u say i love u to me after u said the same thing to her?
H: I have always cared how u feel but u couldn't see it.. I have always tried my best to take care of u and I am not and never have blamed u for everything..
Me: Then lets go to that counseling so u can freely tell me what u feel
H: We agreed to wait and start with this counseling, but u couldn't wait could u...
Me: I just cant live like this forever, if i do move back in with u how on earth am i going to trust u're not seeing her again? U have all the means to keep ur affair
Me: U were still defending her when u and i met at the airport, do u even know how that feels? She's a holly religious girl who screws with my husband!
Me: So u tell me how am i suppose to feel? Are u going to use ur mind games again on me so i dwell on my past mistakes?
H: I really was looking forward to this just like going to B (a small town outside where we live), but u always want to dig for something to ruin what I plan for us.. If u could just have a little patience and control ur temper just a little then this would all change and we can get through this.. and instead of sending someone to spy on me who obviously went to the wrong place and come urself then u would know for sure...
Me:  see its my fault again
H: Its not just u that made mistakes, I have too, the difference is I did forgive u and never try to dig up more but u can't do that..
Me: You know if u would've come clean I dig up because i cant trust u and as it turns out u are still having ur affair with her
H: U have to give the opportunity and that's what my plan was tonight but now since u decided to not wait and even impersonate me on online then what do u want me to do and I will only go if u want to try, if ur just going to hear my confession then don't, but I need to hear things from u too this is not a one sided problem...
Me: If i didn't control my temper u know i would've curse on you yesterday after i found those emails
Me: What do u want to hear from me? It wasn't me screwing around with someone else. Like i said u just could never come clean and tell me everything so I'm not even going to push u anymore, you wanted to save this marriage yet keep ur affair going on and u got mad when i don't trust u
H: I'm not mad..if I was mad we wouldn't be talking about this...
Me: U expect me to just forget about it
H: Yes I can but if u want me to say I'm sorry I already have and we made an agreement to work on this, but again ur not following our agreement just like u didn't follow the ones we made before we got married...
H: Did i not asked u to cut all contacts with her?  when u and i agreed to try and salvage this marriage? If u can't keep the end of ur bargain then what is left to safe?
H: I did those emails are from months ago...
Me: So ur saying that she lied? When she said she enjoyed every single minutes u two spent together last w'end?
Me: Please stop denying it_

then he didn't reply anymore. He did showed up at the counseling session and you can read it here. 

To me it sounds like he just goes round and around without giving me any clear answer YES or NO when that's all I wanted to hear, he still denies and couldn't even show any remorse he blamed my temper (yes i know I am working on controlling my temper). I am just completely lost now. Part of me is ready to move on without him but part of me wished he would admitted the affair(s) and beg me not to leave him. Maybe it's a clear sign huh?

Well anyway I would love to hear what you think. Thank you!


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Morningdew - 

Your husband is playing a denial game worth an Oscar. He is pulling every trick in the Disloyal Spouse playbook. He is using the script as though he were reading directly from it.

In essence, what he wants is both you and the Other Woman. He wants to carry a piece of cake around with him forever - and eat it as well. He wants both of you to fill his needs.

He is blaming you for everything, he is justifying his actions, and he is not interested in actually working on your marriage. 

He is babbling in the deepest fog. Very few of his statements could stand up to any rational examination. 

He is still deep in the affair.

Are you willing to work on your marriage? There is another step you can take that can be quite effective in recovery. If you are interested, there are many of us here who can help you move on to that next (and in my mind, necessary step.)


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Morningdew -
> 
> Your husband is playing a denial game worth an Oscar. He is pulling every trick in the Disloyal Spouse playbook. He is using the script as though he were reading directly from it.
> 
> ...


Tanelornpete,
Fist of all thank you for your reply. 

Funny enough that's what I told him today although I left the Oscar part out I did told him that even when faced with the piling evidence he can still keep his cool and lies and that is amazing! 

Honestly, I'm not sure anymore. It's been such an emotional mad derailed roller coaster ride since I first found his pictures with the OW. One day I felt like I am finally ready to move on then the next I fell for his words again. 

I did give him 1 week until next Monday to tell me if he can cut this OW out of the picture forever and fix our marriage or not but until he can tell me what he wants I will not keep in touch with him. I guess if he can't then I have no other option but to move on as hard as it is and although I feel like I had to ripped half of myself off. 

Do you think there's even any hope for him to completely crawl out of his dream fantasy affair?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not if he won't even admit it when faced with the evidence. Apparently his SOP has been to blame everything on you or come up with things to hang you up on so you stop questioning him; he probably has done this your whole relationship, you just never noticed it.

Have you exposed it to his family and friends? Hers?


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

turnera said:


> Not if he won't even admit it when faced with the evidence. Apparently his SOP has been to blame everything on you or come up with things to hang you up on so you stop questioning him; he probably has done this your whole relationship, you just never noticed it.
> 
> Have you exposed it to his family and friends? Hers?


Turnera, yes I had realized that months ago. After his first A in China, he twisted it so bad it was me who begged him to forgive me for my past mistakes. He does have a way to make me feel guilty over every single thing in our marriage. 

I exposed this to his office but apparently an airline couldn't care less since they are so used to get the same reports about their pilots. He doesn't have much friends here outside of work and I don't even know them. His family already knows about it and my MIL is brokenhearted and said he needs help and only he can save himself from his destructive behaviors. She even said that he's always have problems with lies and being deceitful. My FIL only have one comment after he heard I had moved out "CONGRATULATIONS! I LOVE YOU!" how sad is that but I know he won't listen to his mother. As for the OW, I really don't know her other than the emails address she have and her facebook page. 

I tried so many times but it all comes back to how much I had hurt him when we were still living in Alabama, even told the counselor tonight that one of my girlfriend had emailed him a picture of me with another guy when I went to Houston before I got pregnant but he said "I know everyone makes mistake so I just deleted the pictures and never say a word to her."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Come on, you're smarter than this! 

Do you deserve to be treated like dirt?

Then why do you let him? Just so you have a man next to you?

You deserve better.

Stop all contact with him. Just stop it. Let him squirm.

Then set extremely high hoops he has to jump through to even be able to talk to you again.

Is your mother alive? Would she think you deserve to be trampled on like this?


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Turnera, I know what you mean. My two best friends also said the same thing that I am being too nice to him just because he and I have a son together and just because yes I love him still. 

My father cried today and hugged me before I went to the counseling he said he doesn't want me to get hurt over and over again. 

I am going to stop all contact with him from now on. I told him he doesn't have the b***s to even owning his mistakes so...

I guess part of me is scared to be on my own again, I haven't work for 5 years since after I married him and it does effect me greatly when it comes to my self esteem. I really hope the counselor can help me sort my messed up feelings when I see her alone this Friday. 

Thank you for your stern words, I really needed that!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Listen to your father. Your parents will know what you should do - they are looking after YOU, not your marriage. If your dad thinks you should protect yourself, you should protect yourself.

fwiw, I think if you do move on and get a job and start a new life, in a year you will be kicking yourself for waiting so long to do the right thing. It will feel SO GOOD to be able to wake up every day knowing that you have your integrity and you aren't selling yourself short just to keep him, that you will smile and wonder why you took so long.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Turnera,

Your words put tears in my eyes...I have to admit I have been thinking about how life would be without him in it to makes me feel so bad all the time...yes it scared me especially since I live in a country where most job adds will say "Under 30 years old, attractive appearance" and that's legal to do so but I had been sending out my resumes to some of the big companies here who usually doesn't use the regular public low standard but it does sounds like life would be better without me being unhappy all the time and worrying what more will I find about him and his 'girls'.

Thank you again Turnera! Btw, I'm 13 years younger than him if that makes any difference lol


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

To Turnera - I am hoping that there is one last chance to save a marriage here (I am ever the optimist!) - I was hoping we could help Morningdew arrange a Plan B letter, and then move on. 

She has to get away - that is absolutely clear. But I am not convinced that a divorce will be the answer (contrary to what a lot of people think, a divorce does NOT end a relationship - it just changes the parameters.) I am not convinced because her husband is still trying to hold on to her (in very incorrect ways, true) - but it is evident that in the very deepest recesses of his foggy soul, there's a hint that he wants to fix things.

Morningdew - if you want to try this final step (before divorce) - to say you really did all you could to save the marriage - let us know.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Tanelornpete,

As you can see I am still swaying between the possibility of putting an end to this marriage than to put up with more lies from him. When I talked him into going to counseling I did thinks even if it's not working out I can walk out saying I had tried everything. 

I know I will be forever connected to him due to our son...

So yes please do let me know about this Plan B. I read from Marriage Builder about Plan A & B but unfortunately after I found out about this A (the 3rd one) I just moved out and haven't been back since. I know that Plan B involves separation but I haven't yet study that part fully. 

Thank you for your kind offer, Tanelornpete!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I wasn't trying to convince her to divorce - only to protect herself. Since she is already separated - and he is a serial cheater - she needs to know her own clear standards. And so does he. Until then, there IS no marriage, only a convenience for him and a h&ll for her.

md, Plan B is awesome. It's a love letter you give him that tells him what YOU have to have in a marriage, including conditions he'd have to meet (transparency, etc.) before you'd take him back. It tells him that it hurts you too much to be around him when he cheats so you have to cut off all contact with him until he decides he's ready to meet your conditions. You set up an intermediary to relay important messages (like "I'm ready to meet your conditions") and trade off kids; otherwise, you never see him again. It's a big step, but it can be very effective toward waking the WS up. 

But the main purpose of Plan B is to stop you from having to suffer from his actions because you won't be witnessing them any more. It helps you have room to breathe, and find yourself, and regrow your backbone that he has whittled away.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh morningdew!

When I read your posts this morning (both this one and the one about counseling) I was so upset. First, I'm sorry you had to find them and go through all this--but I am at least glad you have proof and know for a fact now that he has been unfaithful. Now you know this for a fact, and he can try to squirm and blame and deflect all he wants but you KNOW the truth. If you remember, my ex did the same thing--trying to squirm out of it when I had 100% proof in my hand. It never ceases to amaze me when a Disloyal spouse is caught and they try that, but that often happens. 

If I could please make a few suggestions. 

Tanelorn actually has it right--it is conceivable that there is still hope to save the marriage and here's what that might look like. He is caught and cornered. He can deflect and blame all he wants, but he knows it and so do you. At this point he has a choice that every Disloyal faces: Does he continue with the OW and continue to lie out of pride? or Does he swallow his pride and admit what he's done and face himself? Unfortunately, all too often Disloyals would rather continue doing what they know is wrong and lose their marriage--so they deny, lie, divorce and end up with the OW rather than confess they did wrong. 

Often, once they are cornered and caught outright, the Disloyal will fume and fuss a moment, then break down, (maybe cry) admit they were wrong, and the real recovery can begin. So if he were to humble himself, admit he has been lying and come clean--there is still hope. Tanelorn and I will pray that he'll soften his heart, look at himself and what he's done wrong, and admit it...okay?

If he were to do that, he could go to personal counseling to face himself and figure out why he has chosen to lie so much in the relationship. The whole time he was in counseling I'd advise you stay separated but also do some encouraging things like date or spend time so that he knows you are just waiting for him to work through his lying issue and prove himself to you by his ACTIONS. 

If here were to really choose to work on it, here's what it would look like: 
1) he would be very sad because he's loosing a way to have some of his needs met.
2) he would let you be with him while he deletes his facebook page and affair email addresses.
3) he would give you his passwords and give you access to his accounts.
4) he would go to counseling about his lying on his own--voluntarily--and you wouldn't have to remind him or arrange it for him. 
5) he would do the homework the marriage counselor gives him. 

If you don't see this kind of behavior--he is most likely still lying and the affair has probably gone further underground. Okay?

Now, for your assistance here are some "Sample Plan B Letters". If you plan to go straight into Plan B, you would start by writing a letter like this to him. Okay? So let's start there and you can look over those letters.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Turnera, I know what you meant by your previous replies. You were trying to let me see this from a different point of view and I do appreciate it.

Thank you for your info on Plan B. So basically I will be writing him a letter (or email) that tell him what emotional needs that he and I must have in the marriage and the conditions to take him back, right?

The hard part would be how can he proof that he will follow thru instead of just telling me more lies. He works in a restricted area so it's not like I can just walk in and check on him plus he travels a lot also with this darn blackberry, he could still be talking with her without me knowing. That's the hardest part...knowing he have all the 'tools' to hide his affairs if he choose to do so.

I am seriously going to get a job as soon as I can so atleast I can fix my convidence again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If he wants the marriage, he will make all of his electronic media available to you to check, work or not. If he won't give you access to that, then he is still cheating. Or at the least, thinking he can snow you over. Insist on total transparency. Affaircare and Tanlelorn have given you great steps to follow.

Like I said, Plan B is a big step. Don't do it until you've exhausted all other efforts, or until it just hurts too much to be in contact with him; it is for your self-preservation, not to 'get him back.' If it helps him come back by you no longer meeting any needs, great. But its main purpose is to protect YOU. And it is very final - either he agrees, or you separate for good. So don't do it lightly.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Affaircare, thank you so much for ur reply! Your replies to others has been realy helpful and I read a lot of them.

Sad part is he shows no remorse whatsoever even when I pointed to one of his e-card to the OW where he wrote "I love you so much, sweetheart!" He didn't even say a word then tried to wiggle more lies by saying that is an old e-card.

I watched the movie fireproof and I cried because I wished my own husband who had betrayed me so much would at least do that, asking for my forgiveness. He never do that he just said 'sorry' without really meaning it. I have no idea if its because he didn't see it as something wrong or what.

The counselor did asked what is the reason for his first divorce and he calmly said that his ex and him got married too young, that she wanted to 'explore' the world out there but I do know how he told me the ex used to cheats so much. Now, I'm doubting that story. Had emailed his ex to ask about this since I didn't really know her I only bought his side of the story.

Thank you for praying for him. My whole family (even his mom and her prayer group) has been praying for him. I really don't know what he thinks now. Before he and I left the counselor's place he even dare saying 'so you're not going to kiss me?' And i almost jumped when he tried to touch my arm. He said 'i love you!' Then left because I insisted on taking the cab not going in the car with him.

You had given me a very deep insightful reply and help, AC! I truly appreciate this.

I'll think about Plan B more but for the moment it seems like the right path to chose since I really can't even stand sitting so close to him.

Once again, thank you so much!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Turnera,thank you...you're right with the whole transparancy thing. Even the counselor said the same thing. At this point I can't even look at his face and that's what happened when we were at the counselor tonight (it's almost 5am here). Felt like he had stompped all over the very last string of hope I had left to salvage this marriage.

I will give it a day or two to think it over and make a draft of the letter.

By the way, it just strucked me that the OW's English is so bad (makes me wonder how they communicate!) while H and I are always so compatible when we talk about things (like his work or the news, not about our relationship tho') so that might be what he needed from me emotionally the conversation.

Anyway thank you Tanelorn, Turnera, and Affaircare...I'm going to try to get some sleep now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Tanelorn, Turnera & Affaircare...

After reading through the sample of Plan B letters (which made me cry reading it) I have some questions that I hope you can help me with.

1. Child Visitation: Before we had agree that he would be having our son every Thursday - Friday. It only happens once until now (was last week) and during the time he picked up and dropped off our son he didn't want to come in and see my family. Blaming me for involving my family and caused him to lose face in front of them, saying he's not ready to face my family, etc etc... Now if I'm going to do this Plan B how would you suggest the best approach when it comes to Child Visitation. He is a good father to my son and I know my son misses him terribly and I don't want to separate them.

2. Financial support for our son: How do you go around this? Before, his paycheck has always been transferred to my account but after I moved he had opened up his own account (with the help of his OW) or so he claimed. 

3. I still keep my keys to the apartment and I'm wondering if I should give him the keys back or not. I can't even think of stepping one foot in that place again after I learned the OW was there. Same feelings about my wedding & engagement rings, I had took them off when I moved out because it pained me too much just to look at them. Should I just store it away or give it back to him? 

That's all I can think of right now as I'm starting to make an 'imaginary' draft of the letter in my head. 

Can't thank you all enough for your kind help and continuous support thru the darkest times of my life.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

I spent almost all morning trying to write this letter with the help from the link Affaircare had given me. I added my own words to this and here's what I came up with:

_My dearest husband,

You know I love you and adore you with my heart, my mind and my body even when I failed to demonstrate it in the past. When we married I thought it would be forever and have never considered that we would be apart one day. The thought that we may not grow old together truly pains me. 

I cannot change the past, but I have learnt from my mistakes and I sincerely apologize to you. I realized how my mistakes in the past had created the environment that helped you to find these other woman to fulfill your emotional needs or other needs that I failed to provide to you. My temper and anger issues had also pushed you further away and I am working on that, I will be seeing a counselor to help me find a better outlet for my emotions. I said and did many things in anger that I never meant. I know I hurt you. But believe me, whenever you hurt so do I, it will be a long battle to overcome my anger issues but I really am working hard on it for my own sake. I wish I never did them, but what can I do now. Although I've ALWAYS loved you with my heart and soul, I made you feel that EVERYTHING was more important to me than you. It never was the case, but that is how I made you feel and for that, I am sorry.

Looking back now I realized it was wrong for me to give you ultimatum and to keep pushing you to make up your mind to choose between me and her. You are the only person who can make choices for you and I will respect your decision. I hope that you will be happy in whatever you chose and that you find peace. You are my friend, my lover and my husband. I only want true happiness for you and do not wish any harm or ill to you. 

The pain and emptiness that I experience on a daily basis is almost too much to bear. My only saving grace is the thought of us being together and happy again someday. Unfortunately, I find now that is slowly being shattered as well by you still keeping your relationship going with her. Before I lose my love and hopes completely I must take some drastic steps. 

To save the love I have for you and my own sanity, I have come to a decision of my own. I need to stop seeing you until you decide one way or the other. The current situation is becoming extremely too stressful and hurtful for me, it might even hurt you too inside whether you acknowledge it or not. Please try to understand that I am not doing this to hurt you or punish you. This is not an ultimatum or a threat, it is simply no contact. I know that I risk losing you forever, but I cannot continue to see you without putting pressure on you to make a decision. If you choose to come back and work on our marriage, I want to know that you have done it because you love me and really wants to work together with me to salvage this union, not because you have felt pressured into doing it. Like I had told you before, I can't fight for our marriage alone anymore. I am exhausted. I still love you, and I will still pray for you, but I cannot see you under these conditions any longer. 

This doesn’t mean that I will not allow you to see our son, I will be as flexible as possible with visitation. You are his father and an important role in his life and like you said he will grow up with both of us present no matter what the circumstances will be. But I can’t see you during pick up or drop off times or taking him to the apartment. I would also like any of the regular communications between us to be handled through a mutual friend or relative of your choice. For any emergency you can call me directly. I know you will still take care of your son financially so I believe you will still transfer the fund for him in my bank account monthly. 

I want to be able to rebuild our Marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then, there will never be a need for us to separate or to have "friends" other than each other again. I want to be your best friend again, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend whom I can share my every thoughts like we used to be some years ago.

I do not know what the future hold for us, that is in God’s hands. I know that I want to grow old with you. When I said I DO, I made a promise in front of God, you and our families for life. Through better or worse. I hope with all my heart and soul that you will come back to me one day. Please make Vera or any other woman aware that I am your wife and that I want to work on our marriage. Please be honest with yourself, with me and them. Reading all your emails to her pained me in a way I never felt before, because in your words I saw the man I fell in love with almost 6 years ago, those words used to be for me and knowing that you directed it to someone else really hurts me beyond any words.

I love you and you will always be very special to me. I look back through our life and I chose now to only remember the good times and learn from the bad. I forgive whatever pain you have caused me and hope that in time you will forgive me too. 
I hope we will be together again one day. 

When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our family, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, and go to counseling again, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future._

What do you think? Am I being too 'loving', unclear or plain wordy? Also do you think it's best if I had write this and mail it to him at the office or email is good enough. Knowing how he is, he'd probably get so mad and accused me of being mean and irrational again and try to cause my more guilt but I know I got nothing else to give at this point, I had tried and tried and tried, this is definitely the hardest time of my life and I need to start taking care of myself if not for me for the sake of my son. Hurts too much to hear your 3years old cried and begged "Mommy, let's go home to the apartment" It won't be easy going through this Plan B but I know this is the right thing to do right now.

Thank you again from the bottom of my broken heart.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Wanted to add that he had sent me an email and this is what he said: 

"Honey, I wish you could just stop attacking me so much, you have always done this from the beginning but I'm not saying this is your fault but we weren't out of the meeting even an hour before you started at me again. I do want things to work but you have to let this work, and as far as the other thing goes, I got myself into it so you have to let me handle it and get myself out of it my own way. Please stop telling me how to do it and ordering me to do it your way. Believe it or not I want to try but you have to understand that I need to do some things my way. I do love you baby, I really do!" 

So me asking him make up his mind is attacking? Telling him what the counselor had clearly said about cutting all form of communication with the OW is ordering him around?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Of course it is. That is how he controls you.

He tells you that it's all your fault, but DON'T WORRY, he won't blame you forever.

Blech.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Turnera I know that's what I thought too. I mean, I read his email over and over and over again...it's so obvious he's dangling me with his "you're very impatient" card again. 

Do you think the letter is too much?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'll try to shorten it and redirect it a little.


morningdew said:


> _My dearest husband,_
> 
> _You know I love you and adore you with all my heart, even when I failed to demonstrate it in the past. When we married I never considered that we would be apart one day. The thought that we may not grow old together truly pains me. _
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Note that you don't let HIM choose your intermediary. It has to be someone YOU choose. If he doesn't like it, tough. You will redirect your email to this person (before you give him the letter) so that, when he does try to contact you and chew you out, you'll never know it. You may even want to change your phone number.

Plan B means that you have NO CONTACT with him whatsoever - you will have NO IDEA what he's doing or saying or where he goes, who he sees - he truly will be out of your life, unless he capitulates. You will ask all your friends and family to keep you in the dark, except your intermediary - and that person will only relay important stuff, not how he's feeling, what he thinks, none of it. 

It really is permanent, based on him. You don't get to go back and say I changed my mind, come home. If you do that, he'll cheat on you for the rest of your life. Heck, he'll probably bring the women home with him if you go back on this. So be very sure this is what you want.

You also may want to visit an attorney before you take this step, and take steps to protect whatever money you have in the bank. If he's as big a jerk as he seems, he'll probably take all your money away to force you to back down. He'll probably stop giving you money for your son. So you may need an attorney to take steps to keep that going.

This is hard stuff. Are you sure you're ready?


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Turnera,
Thank you for all your help. I'm thinking to bring the draft letter and talk to the counselor when I see her on Friday for my one on one session.

I'm so lost as who will be the right intermediary for this. My families probably wouldn't be the best candidate. They might be able to help bringing my son to his car when he picks him up and for drop off. He and I doesn't really have that many friends together. My best friend would never do it since she feels she can rip his face apart. The only neutral person I can think of right now is the counselor but I'm not sure if she's willing to do that since she seems to be very busy with her work.

I really feel like I have nothing more to give to him at this point and my obsession in finding the proofs had pretty much sucked the life out me and I can't do that anymore.

As for the financial thing, I'm not too worry since he and I doesn't have any savings, His monthly paycheck used to transffered to my account (but I know he'll change this). Although it is a shame, my parents has been helping me and my son financially (this is why I'm trying to get a job) actually they have done it for a long time esp. when he was working in China for a year and I stayed with my parents. He didn't send money other than our tickets money to go there twice (plus one trip to visit the inlaws back to the States).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well,the point of Plan B is that you DON'T receive his emails and you DON'T take his calls. Period. Technically, you could arrange tradeoff times and never deviate from that, but you'd need someone to be called in case of an emergency if he has his son. Is your mom willing to filter your emails for you?


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

I think my mom wouldn't be able to handle it. I can put a filter on my email and automatically forward it somewhere else just doesn't know to whom yet.
Changing cell phone number is also a good idea. Actually my brother just offered me his cell (no one knows bout my-getting-readr-for-plan-B yet) so a new cell will be good too to stop him from adding me up using his blackerry messenger and I don't want that! He's off my list from all messengers now, I had even closed my facebook page now.
I might try approaching this one couple that I know here, H knows them but not very close and I've known the wife for years but she didn't know what happened yet.
One more thing...I have my own website with a guestbook that will send all entries to my email. Do you think I need to pull the guestbook down just incase? Also, how bout the website (blog) itself? Should I just stop writing? He's one of my subscriber. Not that I've been updating it since I moved out...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Once you pull away from him, he will likely either ignore you completely - to 'punish' you - or he will work nonstop to drive you crazy and beg him to take you back. I've seen it work both ways. If it were me, I would shut myself off from everyone for the first month and only contact who I want to contact via phone or in person.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

I think that's the best way to handle it, by being 'invisible' to everyone else for a month.

Thank you again Turnera, you have been such a great help for me. Bless your heart!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Read your thread. Sounds like you are looking at doubt, fear, and anguish, regardless of your choice.
My concern is that this guy knows he has you.

It's apparent that he neither wants to leave, or give up his affairs. I just don't see how you win here. Even if he behaves in an exemplary and loving fashion aren't you always still going to wonder if its simply a charade?
You need to choose the outcome that leads to some degree of personal peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Deejo, you are spot on...that's exactly how I feel deep inside. I am scared of the 'unknown' although I know I can't stay like this forever I don't know why it's so hard to move on and completely shut this chapter of my life.

Maybe the counselor can help me understand this better. 

I sucks at making decisions in the first place so this is the hardest thing ever.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

So, I made a list on reasons why I'm scared to move on and why I should just quit the fight while I'm still breathing... Guess which list is winning. I really wish I could just get up and walk out from all this mess but I don't know why I can't move 

Yes, I'm scared to death to make the wrong decision...at this point love alone isn't enough to hold on to my marriage but I am scared...I feel even more lost than I did before.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Can you talk to your mom or a sister?


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

My mom would simply said "pray and wait until he come and begs you to take him back" I have no sister or cousin only 2 younger brothers who are still single 

I guess I'll just take it one day at a time and wait till Friday to see the counsellor. Mean time I haven't reply to his last email and he had sent me two text messages asking if I got his email and why I deleted him off of my blackberry messenger. Last text saying "so you won't talk to me anymore?"

I feel like I'm back at square one only this time hurts even more. Sorry for the self loathing post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

morningdew said:


> Last text saying "so you won't talk to me anymore?"


Do you notice how instead of saying "I'm sorry" or "I screwed up" or "What can I do to make it up to you"...he puts the onus on YOU?

As in, YOU are so rude, or mean, or screwed up, or WRONG, that you are now refusing to be civil (like him)?

It would be good if you can practice catching these attempts to tear you down.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Turnera, I completely missed that all I know I feel like crap after reading his text. Maybe I'm so used to being treated like this I failed to catch it sometimes.Can you call this an emotional abuse? Thank you so much for all your help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes. That's what I've been trying to get you to see. 

PLEASE go get some of the books I've recommended. You really need to arm yourself with knowledge on how girls get sucked into the cycle. It's really quite scientific. Of course you'd never even date twice a guy who criticized you; but you would date a nice guy and, if he questions your choices on the third or fourth date, you'll tell yourself that you must not see what he's seeing, maybe he's got it right. Or you give in on other little things, one at a time, over a long period, until you have given in so many times that you no longer have a voice, nor do you recognize the put-downs and controls he uses to keep you feeling bad, keep you trying new things to not upset him, keep you wondering what it is you're doing that gets him so upset. Please go get some books on mental abuse or control.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

I am speechless...

Will google and read about mental abuse and control now. 

Thank you Turnera


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Ok, I had read a bit and it's shocking to say the least. I would never realized it in a million years. He never hit or do anything that physically abuse me but yes he twisted things around with his words that I am usually left thinking 'was it just my head?' or 'maybe i am making things up'...he's not a control freak but I do find it how several times he kind of make me 'late' or had to cancel going on a photo hunting event with this local photography group that I joined. He let me go out with my girlfriends but now I see how he hesitates when there's guys involved (the photo group members are mostly guys). 

WOW...I will look up which books you meant, Turnera. Thank you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I liken it to the frog in the kettle.

You put a frog in a kettle full of room-temperature water, he's fine. You turn on the heat, as it heats up so gradually he doesn't realize things are getting worse; he just accepts the hot water one degree at a time. Until it's too late.

I call mental abuse the 'give in' cycle. You 'give in' one tiny thing at a time. So much so that you don't realize things are getting 'hot.' It starts with questioning what you're wearing so you feel 'less than.' Or criticizing what you did. Or asking you why you did it, so you wonder why he asked; did you make a mistake? It gets you to start doubting yourself - so then you start trusting what HE says more than what YOU think. They may add things like refusing to visit your family, or putting down your friends so you stop seeing them just to keep from hearing his comments.

Once you get to the point where you've stopped questioning what he says, or you start making choices based on not upsetting him, then they turn it up a notch, cussing you out or telling you you're stupid or making jokes at your expense so that you lose all self esteem. If you accept that without leaving, they may even become even more abusive or controlling.

Mind you, I don't know your guy; this may all be guessing on my part. Only you can know for sure, so don't go blaming him if this doesn't all fit. And he probably has no clue that he does these things. But knowledge is power. If it turns out he doesn't fit the profile, drop this thought and move on; if he does fit, you know you should never go back to him because it almost always gets worse.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

turnera said:


> Once you get to the point where you've stopped questioning what he says, or you start making choices based on not upsetting him, then they turn it up a notch, cussing you out or telling you you're stupid or making jokes at your expense so that you lose all self esteem. If you accept that without leaving, they may even become even more abusive or controlling.
> 
> Mind you, I don't know your guy; this may all be guessing on my part. Only you can know for sure, so don't go blaming him if this doesn't all fit. And he probably has no clue that he does these things. But knowledge is power. If it turns out he doesn't fit the profile, drop this thought and move on; if he does fit, you know you should never go back to him because it almost always gets worse.


He doesn't cuss or do more, thanks God...but to me his mind games is the way he keeps using my guilt from past mistakes...

I really can't wait to see the counselor. I really thinks she have a lot to say to me after the first session, I can just tell by the way she look at me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If that's all he does, that just may be his coping mechanism. My husband fit two or three of the patterns, but after learning more about it, he's not abusive. He just has poor coping skills. For instance, his insecurity drove him to criticize my friends, since he assumed they criticized HIM. It was MY weakness and poor coping skills that drove me to abandon my friends to avoid his criticisms. See how that works? 

That's why I don't want you to just label him. Learn more before you do anything.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Ok just a quick update:

I had contacted his ex wife and asked about what caused their divorce since I have only heard it from his side (that she was a cheater). Today she replied and why am I not surprise anymore when she said on their 7th year of marriage, she discovered his affair(s) one with a 17 years old girl that they worked together with. Caught him leaving a hotel with that girl but he still DENIES and LIED about it. They went to counseling too but he only told the counselor what she wanted to hear (pretty much like he's doing now) and then he admitted for several other affairs. He also threatened to take their children away (they have 2 boys together) but she said when they were in court he did not say one word about the children' custody. 

I will learn more from her tonight as I promised to give her a call but she said on the day she left, she said to him "I feel sorry for the next women you marries" and she did sounds like she's very sorry for what happened even told me that "I wish I had someone to tell me what a snake he was before I was so naive."

Interesting patterns!


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