# Exchange at Marriage Counseling (help!)



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Hoping for a women's perspective on my MC session yesterday. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. My backstory is here.

My concern continues to be lack of attraction to her, indirectly because of her weight, and secondarily because of years of sexual disinterest. She is about 100 pounds overweight, and at 4'11" she can't really hide it. She is on blood pressure medication. She gets migraine headaches about 3-4 times per month. Her doctors have asked her to lose weight. She goes to bed at 8pm or earlier 2-3 nights per week. Honestly, I think my lack of attraction has more to do with the fact that she does not take any of these things seriously. (She was a bit overweight when I married her, and I thought she was quite pretty, so I am not one who needs a supermodel as a wife.) I think I have lost respect for her, because she has lost respect for herself. I have tried to tell her that losing weight - or even just making a fair honest effort in doing so - would go a long way toward restoring that attraction. Or, even just helping me understand the reasons why she isn't interested in putting in the effort to make this happen.

Anyway, at marriage counseling yesterday, the MC was asking about expectations. After my wife got through naming her numerous expectations of me, which included things like reconciling her spending and helping her get over her lack of self confidence and self esteem, it was my turn. I said I had only one at this point: I needed her help in restoring my attraction to her. Right now, we don't have sex often - neither one of us initiates - and for me, it just comes down to it not being a very fulfilling experience. I don't need anything else from her really - sex is the only thing that I can't address outside the marriage, so obviously this is important to me. (And I admit, I am many years into a marriage which has not been very sexually fulfilling, and it is taking its toll.)

The MC and my wife talked a bit, and the direction turned to the topic of expectations. Eventually, I said, "I have one expectation, that you take your health seriously. Isn't it reasonable that I can have one expectation fulfilled in a marriage?" The MC said no, that I could communicate my expectation to her but I had no control or "right" to have it fulfilled.

My wife then said that she didn't understand why this is so important to me. I got very frustrated - I am not usually confrontational, but then this exchange occurred:

Me: "I have been telling you for years how many ways this weight issue is affecting us. Why isn't this important to you? For everything that you have asked for and I've done for you, I've had one request of you... if you can't do it for yourself, can't you just do something for me, just once?"
MC: "She might think it is unfair that you are placing expectations on her."
Me: "Well, then, fine. But how fair is it that she can have the expectation that I won't turn elsewhere, but I can't have the expectation that she will take steps to keep me happy within her expectations?"
MC: "That is probably something you and your wife need to think about."
Me, to wife: "So, how about we change things around. I'll have no expectations of you, but you can't expect me not to have sex with other people. Is that fair to you?" 
Wife: "If it'll make you happy, go have sex with other people."
Me, stunned: "... You don't want a little time to rethink that?"
Wife: "No, go have sex to your hearts content with other people."
Me: "Are you saying this to get me off your back, or because you mean it?"
Wife: "To get you off my back. Both probably. *chuckle*"

At that point, I couldn't speak, I was stunned and very very hurt.

MC: "Do you feel any emotion when you say that?"
Wife: "No."
Wife, to me: "This is what you want, right?"
Me: "No. That's nothing like what I want."

And that was sort of it. She then wanted to talk about planning financial goals for the next few years. I don't remember anything else we said after that.

Any thoughts on this are very appreciated - I am feeling like she is not very emotionally invested in our marriage and I am getting ready to give up. (She continues to resist individual counseling, as she "does not get anything out of it".)


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

4'11'' 100lbs over weight

go have sex with other people

I don't care about whats important to you

lets talk about what I want!!!!!



time to hit the road a running!!!!!!!!


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## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

I think your wife has given up on herself. She probably wants to lose weight, but is stuck in that vicious cycle of being depressed about her weight so eating because she's depressed. Unfortunately, there is really nothing you can do about her state of mind. It's something she has to fix on her own. 

I call BS on the MC saying we shouldn't place expectations on our spouses. Sometimes are expectations may be more than our spouse can fulfill, but I honestly believe that people rise to the level you expect. Expecting that your spouse will try and stay attractive for you is a resonable expectation. Even if they fail at it, it's still reasonable to expect.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Although I'm not familiar with your story, I think I can relate to the problem. There came a time when I felt as your wife does. After years of my husband not meeting my "love languages", I felt as though I was nothing more than "a piece of meat" for him. My self-esteem was at rock bottom. I tried every way to communicate to my husband. I even told him I had to feel loved...or he might just as well take a mistress. Well, he took that completely out of context. And used that to justify his affairs. 

The marriage counselor should have seen your wife's cry for help on that exchange. She has let her health deteriorate, cares nothing about her appearance, and she is distancing herself from you. Your wife is "checking out" of life right before the counselor's eyes. Yes, your wife desperately needs individual counseling. Are there any underlying medical conditions causing the big weight gain and fatigue? Thyroid problems and PCOS readily come to mind. Have doctors ruled these problems out?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Some harsh realities: Your wife believes she cannot lose weight--she has tried. She is desperate to be a healthier, more attractive person, but she can't seem to get there. She has discovered a horrifying reality: every bit she puts in her mouth spells "failure" for her. At her size, only 1770 calories are needed just to maintain her current weight (I estimated about 200 lbs). In the world of abundance in which we live, that is so little. If she got to a "normal" weight, she'd be able to eat only about 1250 calories (unless she exercised, but that will only add about 200 cals more/day b/c she is so petite). 

Now, stop and think about the big picture: her attraction to you ended soon after marriage/first baby. The sexual relationship became a nuisance to her--that is on both of you, but that isn't the point. Now you are blaming her for not being able to lose weight and yet losing weight (which she secrety would like) also means having more sex with you (which she doesn't really want, b/c she loves you but isn't attracted to you anymore). So you want her to control everything that goes into her mouth for the rest of her life so that you can do things with her body that she doesn't really want. She's in a lose/lose situation: she gives up foods she enjoys, loses weight, and only "gets" sex with someone she's not attracted to. Or, she doesn't (and she's found it nearly impossible and has experienced constant failure with any attempt she has made), and you leave her. 

I agree that your wife needs individual counseling and the intervention of her medical provider to help her with weight loss. If you don't do anything else, do that for your kids--so she doesn't die on them too early.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Is the therapest male or female? Sometimes it makes no differnce but I just wondered.

Is it your perception that there is a bias against you? It seems that there is a preconceived idea that your wife has a right to make demands on you but you have no right to do the same. Is my perception wrong??

I think that letting this matter go about the sex with other women without an attempt at resolution is telling. You made one major request and was not given equal time to address your concerns.

If it were me, and if you indeed feel this way, ask the therapist directly what hi/her therapeutic goal is and how he/she plans to go about guiding you and your wife to a resolution. 

Tell that you want equal time and attention to your issue with your wife and any thing that is suggested to you to fix it needs to be suggested to her or the therapeutic goals will not be met. 

I have no idea if your perception is right but, make sure and if it seems to be skewed towards your wife, and inform both that the possibility for success is remote and that you seem to be wasting time.

Then ask the therapist to again explain the therapeutic goals and address your concerns adequately or you can see no reason to continue. Get another therapist maybe a team male female.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Honestly, it sounds like she could not care less about you except insofar as marriage is a social / financial contract.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

827Aug said:


> The marriage counselor should have seen your wife's cry for help on that exchange. She has let her health deteriorate, cares nothing about her appearance, and she is distancing herself from you. Your wife is "checking out" of life right before the counselor's eyes. Yes, your wife desperately needs individual counseling. Are there any underlying medical conditions causing the big weight gain and fatigue? Thyroid problems and PCOS readily come to mind. Have doctors ruled these problems out?


I agree that my wife is crying out for help. I have no idea how to help her.

She says, she has no self confidence. She says, she needs "unconditional validation" from me to heal - and my best understanding about that is that I'm supposed to tell her how wonderful everything is and what a good wife she is, regardless of what she does. 

The problem with that is, if I lie for the sake of her validation, she'll think things are great and problem solved. Which is fine until I finally get to the point where I want to say, "OK, you have felt validated for a while... when can we work on the issues?", and she'll say, "We're right back at square one." If I don't lie, her esteem plummets. (I would tend to look at it like, ok, she's coming to me asking me to help US, how can I step it up? She looks at it like, he thinks I'm a failure.)

I have asked her to see the doctor without much success.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

My MC would not have handled it that way. At all!!! She would have turned to your wife and asked gently but probing questions and within 2 seconds your wife would have been crying over her size (think an emotional part of biggest loser or any of those weight loss shows where therapy is involved.). Instead your MC let her sit there with her armour on and didn't even try to get in.

Your session sounded like a complete bust to me. Your wife has checked out emotionally and is using food as a drug and the MC didn't even try to get her to see that.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> Some harsh realities: Your wife believes she cannot lose weight--she has tried. She is desperate to be a healthier, more attractive person, but she can't seem to get there. She has discovered a horrifying reality: every bit she puts in her mouth spells "failure" for her. At her size, only 1770 calories are needed just to maintain her current weight (I estimated about 200 lbs). In the world of abundance in which we live, that is so little. If she got to a "normal" weight, she'd be able to eat only about 1250 calories (unless she exercised, but that will only add about 200 cals more/day b/c she is so petite).
> 
> Now, stop and think about the big picture: her attraction to you ended soon after marriage/first baby. The sexual relationship became a nuisance to her--that is on both of you, but that isn't the point. Now you are blaming her for not being able to lose weight and yet losing weight (which she secrety would like) also means having more sex with you (which she doesn't really want, b/c she loves you but isn't attracted to you anymore). So you want her to control everything that goes into her mouth for the rest of her life so that you can do things with her body that she doesn't really want. She's in a lose/lose situation: she gives up foods she enjoys, loses weight, and only "gets" sex with someone she's not attracted to. Or, she doesn't (and she's found it nearly impossible and has experienced constant failure with any attempt she has made), and you leave her.
> 
> I agree that your wife needs individual counseling and the intervention of her medical provider to help her with weight loss. If you don't do anything else, do that for your kids--so she doesn't die on them too early.


Thank you for your view, sisters.

I have asked her to go to individual counseling. She says, "I don't get anything out of it." She went once for approximately six sessions. By the end of it, the counselor basically asked her not to make another appointment until she was ready to open up and work on an issue - any issue - since she had no agenda when she went.

I have tried to remind her that we agreed as part of having kids that we were going to get healthy. (I dropped to 10 pounds below my married weight.) 

I wish if she'd lost her attraction, that she'd just tell me that. Maybe, instead of assuming I have to save this marriage, she'd be better off if I left and then she can just do things for herself. Who knows.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Is the therapest male or female? Sometimes it makes no differnce but I just wondered.
> 
> Is it your perception that there is a bias against you? It seems that there is a preconceived idea that your wife has a right to make demands on you but you have no right to do the same. Is my perception wrong??
> 
> ...


My counselor is female, but there is a little bit more to it than that.

We started with a different, female counselor. My wife didn't think we were getting anywhere, so we mutually agreed she was not working...we were recommended another counselor, this one male. He was much better, but my wife had a way of steering the discussion constantly to her needs and away from mine, and the counselor let her do it even when I specifically asked him to give us equal time. I eventually decided I couldn't work with him. She wouldn't pick any more, and would tell everyone I "fired every counselor we've tried".

Through this time, my IC has been AMAZING. I've never had my eyes opened so much. I asked if we could use her as an MC. She said that it isn't unethical but it is not usually a good idea, because of my history with her. However, my wife said she'd tag along to my appts. if I wanted, but she was done with counseling in general.

So, the counselor knows me and what I bring to the table. I think sometimes the counselor focuses on my wife a bit much, but she's heard me yap for 2 years so she probably does that to help paint the best picture...not because of bias reasons.

I have complete faith in the counselor even though I did feel a bit ganged up on last night.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> Honestly, it sounds like she could not care less about you except insofar as marriage is a social / financial contract.


To be fair, she is very loving and kind to me in many ways. I think I should say that in case these posts are coming across in a manner that portrays her in a bad light.

With regard to your post, she is extremely anxious about money (which is surprising since we are fairly well off). For clarity, we have no financial issues at all, but it is a source of constant worry to her.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Acorn said:


> she'd be better off if I left and then she can just do things for herself. Who knows.


Honestly that's not the solution. Somewhere in the marriage vows you probably agreed to "in sickness and in health". You wife is sick. It certainly won't help her self-esteem by you walking out on her. 

However, you also deserve happiness. There was got to be a win win compromise. I'm not impressed with the current marriage counselor. Perhaps find another marriage counselor to start.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> My MC would not have handled it that way. At all!!! She would have turned to your wife and asked gently but probing questions and within 2 seconds your wife would have been crying over her size (think an emotional part of biggest loser or any of those weight loss shows where therapy is involved.). Instead your MC let her sit there with her armour on and didn't even try to get in.
> 
> Your session sounded like a complete bust to me. Your wife has checked out emotionally and is using food as a drug and the MC didn't even try to get her to see that.


My wife is very skilled at deflection and is extremely conflict avoidant. Her old IC once commented, "Trying to get inside your thoughts is like playing chess against a grandmaster."

She is also far less emotional than I am, most of the time. Some days, something will trigger her - usually something very small - and she will burst with anger. She has threatened me with violence during once of those outbursts, and another time at an amusement park with her immediate family and myself, she demanded her family get out of her sight. 

I know there is stuff inside her, and I'd like her to get it out. Even if she hates me, I'd like her to solve the problems if for no other sake than the kids and her own happiness. (like sisters said).


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Acorn said:


> To be fair, she is very loving and kind to me in many ways. I think I should say that in case these posts are coming across in a manner that portrays her in a bad light.
> 
> With regard to your post, she is extremely anxious about money (which is surprising since we are fairly well off). For clarity, we have no financial issues at all, but it is a source of constant worry to her.


It sounds like she has a really bad self esteem. She wants you to make that right for her. You can't. She doesn't want to /won't examine herself. You are hosed.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

I really wish you could find a counselor whose philosophy is similar to my individual therapist. Although my therapist is also a marriage counselor, she has a different approach. She does individual counseling for both husband and wife. She never sees them together. She says it does way too much damage when she spends the entire session playing referee--more damage is done. Perhaps you and your wife could productively work on marital/individual issues, if you could find a therapist with this practice concept.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I wish I could get her to agree to something like that.

I was thinking about this from her perspective last night and I realize that what a lot are saying is true, she's pretty happy with the status quo. The only time she feels the pain of the marriage is when I am frustrated with our lack of growth, and it comes across in some way - usually me being distant, frustrated, or asking to work on our issues.

It is hard to be close to someone when they only want to be close on some things and not others.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

You actually have a lot more expectations of your wife than she losing weight.

You want a sex partner

You want equal time to air issues.

You want a fulfilling marriage.

You want acknowledgment that she's is beig a lousy wife (for whatever reasons).

The list is far longer than the few I started with.

The thing is, the reason so much attention is being paid to your wife by this counselor could be their incompetence. Sure.

OR

It could be that your wife is at a crisis stage of her life. She's obese, depressed, not motivated to have sex with her husband, and likely a host of other things.

You are deprived of sex and companionship.

Not trivializing that.

But she is at risk of dropping dead because of her weight.

So what do you do?

I'd insist on medical intervention for her weight or you leave.

Everything else on back burner until this is addressed.


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## heartbroken1957 (Apr 8, 2011)

wow no one commented on the fact that you say you are not attracted to her. You need to examine the side of the fact that you are sending out signals that affect the depression, lack of self care, ect. Why should she do anything to make an effort to lose weight or clean up her act. You obviously lost interest in her not to long after you married her. You stated she was a bit overweight when you married, but then you wanted her to loose weight to have children. I see someone who really was dissatisfied with her body, and now you are blaming her. The more you showed your dislike the more she dropped into depression and not caring what happened. Thus the statement "go find sex elsewhere, I don't care" of course it's a lie, A cry for some reaction from you telling her, you really do love her. No matter what she looks like. Once you step up to the plate and quit critisizing her, and tell her only simple things like you look perky today, you're looking nice. Then you will start to see her care and try to change things.


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

sisters359 said:


> and only "gets" sex with someone she's not attracted to. .


How did you read this into it? Am I missing something?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

heartbroken1957 said:


> wow no one commented on the fact that you say you are not attracted to her. You need to examine the side of the fact that you are sending out signals that affect the depression, lack of self care, ect. Why should she do anything to make an effort to lose weight or clean up her act. You obviously lost interest in her not to long after you married her. You stated she was a bit overweight when you married, but then you wanted her to loose weight to have children. I see someone who really was dissatisfied with her body, and now you are blaming her. The more you showed your dislike the more she dropped into depression and not caring what happened. Thus the statement "go find sex elsewhere, I don't care" of course it's a lie, A cry for some reaction from you telling her, you really do love her. No matter what she looks like. Once you step up to the plate and quit critisizing her, and tell her only simple things like you look perky today, you're looking nice. Then you will start to see her care and try to change things.


Thanks for your post. I think some of things you wrote are not really accurate - I'm the one that pursued her up until a couple years ago, she is the one who withdrew from the relationship. I did not want her to lose weight to have children, but I did want her to return to a healthy weight after the children were born - I think this is a reasonable request. 

These things aside, your thinking is a lot like my wife's (by my estimation) and I just don't get it - I want to get it though. Could you explain more?

Before having any real discussions about things, I tried the positive, simple approach. I tried to include her in my active lifestyle. I asked her if she'd like to join me at the gym so we could spend time together. My gym occasionally has "free weeks" for friends and I couldn't interest her enough for her to go. 

I said nothing. Instead, I started listening. If she expressed a passing interest in Yoga, I'd give her a yoga mat as a gift a few months later. Not as a birthday present, but just as an extra "Thinking of you" type gift. She asked to try a diet food service, so we spent a boatload of money on it and she decided the portions were too small. She asked to buy some exercise equipment, and it sits there gathering dust.

I tried the "be the change you seek" approach. I lost weight. I'd point out a couple that was very attractive and would tell her, "I miss trying so hard to look good for you. I am going to try harder." I backed it up with action. I tried to show her through my weight loss that I thought she was worth it. No joke, I got to be in the best shape I've ever been in my entire life. (Which, I think did more harm than good because my wife barely noticed but other single gals started coming out of the woodwork to find reasons to talk to me.)

You said, "Then you will start to see her care and try to change things." Haven't I tried that for years? At what point do you just accept - she does not care, I guess the carrot will not work.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

good luck


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## AvaTara539 (Apr 10, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> 4'11'' 100lbs over weight
> 
> go have sex with other people
> 
> ...


:iagree:

EMPHATICALLY.


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## heartbroken1957 (Apr 8, 2011)

sorry Acorn I had lost track of your post. 
yes I see a lot of me or situations that happen to me in the posts. From my view, when someone says anything, no matter how inocent that may involve, what I eat, how much I eat or how I eat it. I see it as a judgement of me. Obviously if they have a comment, they must see a wrong. Once someone is critisized several times, they hear critisiszim in each comment. That is why I said stick to simple statements. Try to find something that is true and uplifting. Don't say "you look chipper" if she is wearing a stress face. She will take it as sarcasm. Instead of focusing on gym or exersize, find anti gym/exersize things to do. Go shopping, movies, on a picnic. Park away from it and walk to it. Walk the dog to the park to play and take a frisbee, play keep away with the dog. 
Do things that don't appear to be exersize. Get a two seater bicycle, when she needs to rest you can do the pedalling. 
Keep it simple, it's not a compitition. Keep your mouth shut, but your eyes open. Watch her as she walks by, watch with a sexy grin. Make her feel you watching. When she comes toward you, look her in the eyes, with that smoldering I want you look. Check things out in the kitchen, walk up behind her and peer over her shoulder at what is cooking. Say something gutteral in her ear, like, "mmm that smells good." She may turn to look at you and when she does let instinct go. If she doesn't turn, you need to wrap your arms around her and whisper in her ear, if you can help her. Think young an flirty, like before the kids. Suggest things like, "should I set the table or clear it off" wink wink. or you can now make a suggestion of "lets take a walk in the moonlight after supper. Sure the kids can come, bring flashlights, a bug jar, and your best cologne. You can hold her hand and show the kids that being married is being happy. 

This is what I tell my husband I want, but he hasn't listened yet. Maybe hearing it from someone else is the secret. Good luck


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