# Is forgivenss a necessity for marital recovery?



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I will preface this with the fact that I understand what you are saying - that there must be conditions met in an affair situation before recovery can happen. I agree 100% But I also posit that you are not understanding what _I_ am saying.

In essence, I am arguing that to make claims in absolute language (I 'can't' or 'won't forgive - or 'I refuse to forgive') are equally as disastrous to a marriage as is an affair, and that unless people train the way they think to begin to see that how they think affects all of their lives, they will go on to other troubles. Or, the unexamined life is not worth living. To quote a famous guy.



> I disagree with your suppositions. Forgiveness does not have to be unconditional. Withholding it until conditions are met does not mean a betrayed person is indulging in 24/7 emotional punishing, insisting on a cheating spouse grovel forevermore.


You neglect a very important proposition in my argument. I am pointing out the refusal to forgive, _period_. That is, a person who will NEVER forgive (one who 'feels' that they 'CAN'T.') I made no mention of waiting for 'conditions' to be met before forgiveness can be given . . . (although I disagree _entirely _with that premise as well, on entirely different grounds. It is possible to forgive but also to not accept any crossing of boundaries. The two are not exclusive.) The only condition I see as necessary is that the hurtful action must have actually occurred.

Hence, if you consider what I said (refuse to forgive) and what you wrote: "....does not mean a betrayed person is indulging in 24/7 emotional punishing, insisting on a cheating spouse grovel forevermore..." you will see that is EXACTLY what happens. Unless you forgive, BY DEFINITION you are therefore constrained to retain resentment, and require requital for an offense, etc. Since there is a _refusal_ to forgive, you must therefore choose these other requirements instead. And I've seen many people try to live that way: there are threads all over this site of people who go for years unwilling to forgive, buried in anger, stress, and score keeping.



> Conditions such as the complete truth, some hoopjumping (tests of loyalty, refocusing on the marriage, giving up a job with their other person, etc.), marriage counseling, and so forth are reasonable things to require before the PROCESS of forgiveness can commence.


These things are necessary for _recovery and growth_ - for a healthy relationship, not forgiveness. But at the same time, I will _always_ argue that unless forgiveness is granted, _absolutely no_ recovery or growth can be attained. Without forgiveness, the marriage stagnates into a battle of tit-for-tat, score keeping and continual love busters/extinguishers. All that happens is that the 'injured' spouse keeps finding hoops, and lashing out in anger and other emotional bombs that keep the relationship from moving upward to a better place.



> BTW, you are presuming also that the forgiveness is for something in the past. It isn't always, even if framed as something in the past.


_Yes I am_. Only God can forgive for things you WILL do (they are a certainty to Him.) It is neither possible, or rational to forgive someone for something they have not done. Only for what they DID - an action performed, past tense. Forgiveness, by definition, FOLLOWS (occurs after) a prior action.



> There are degrees of problems that can be addressed without pause in a marriage. Then there are problems that are hugely weighty. Why is it that you take the tack that the unfaithful spouse's burden is the one that must be considered first?


I do not take such a tact. But I will always argue that in nearly every case of adultery, the issue, the cause of the adultery, was not the Disloyal Spouse seeking some way to harm the person they love, honor and cherish. _Those feelings are at beast diminished by the time the adultery happens._ In all instances I've ever seen, there are problems that created the environment in which an affair THEN appeared to be a credible option! And I will always argue that NO GROWTH can happen in the marriage until these troubles are addressed. AT BEST, all that will happen is an uneasy truce that quite often ends up in another affair. Things 'go back to the way they were.' 

And what you advocate: the Loyal Spouse is thereby entitled to dictate punishments, penances, and various other forms of simpering and grovelling, possibly permanently. And you seem to advocate that the Loyal Spouse is OWED this state of permanent obeisance. I say absolutely not.

If you took the time to study up on our method of treating this issue, you'd see that we do place certain requirements on the returning spouse: call them hoops, if you'd like. These are actions that are designed to demonstrate to the Loyal Spouse that the Disloyal one is fully committed to returning to the relationship and is also committed to working on the marriage.



> It can be all that a person can do is to survive day-to-day for a very long time without the added burden of relieving someone else's guilt (presuming they feel any).


It is impossible for someone to relieve anyone else's guilt, unless you mean forensically (in other words, declare they no longer owe you.) The most you can do is understand that you will no longer hold their actions as a means of demanding that they perform certain acts for you in order to make you feel like they are experiencing some of the pain you felt.



> I don't see it as a negative to insist on the truth, a dramatic proof of changed behavior before considering forgiveness.


I don't see it as a negative to insist on truth, or dramatic proof of changed behavior in any case, ever. In fact, I see that as the only means of growth in a marriage. I disagree that these hoops must be insisted upon before offering forgiveness. YOu can easily forgive someone and refuse to take them back into your house until they show signs of a desire to commit. What I am arguing is that it is an entirely wrong approach to demand obesiance, sacrifice, and gifts designed to inflate your ego and humiliate your spouse in order until you deem that they have suffered enough to make you feel better. In other words, you can forgive a person, refusing to consider that they must do penance, but still have a boundary set about YOU that protects you from the harm of adultery. 

In fact, I'd say that this issue is MAINLY the desire to incorrectly place boundaries - they are places upon your spouse instead of you.

The idea of refusing to forgive does NOT include the idea of refusing to forgive until 'X' happens, unless 'X' is that moment 'just after the end of time.'

You wrote: 

It seems a bit of a stretch to say that the one coping with their unfaithful spouse is the one creating damage in the relationship.​
to which I replied: 

I said nothing of the sort.​
to which you re-replied:

Sure you did, you mention a set of behaviors you believe accompany withholding forgiveness and stated that not forgiving teaches the cheating spouse that the betrayed spouse can only be trusted with negatives.​
Refusing to forgive teaches a spouse that they cannot turn to you for support or understanding. Unless they are masochistic and come to you in order to be humiliated, refusing to forgive your spouse teaches them that it is probably best to find someone who WILL grant forgiveness.

Place yourself in the other shoes: if your spouse never forgave you for wrongs you did, if every time you approached them instead of being glad to see you, they demanded another penance - how long would it take you to quit turning to them? Now I understand that there are some troubled people in the world with what is called low 'self-esteem' who DO look for that type of relationship, but normal people generally do not.

In fact, while working with people who live in abusive relationships I've notices that they tend to develop this characteristic: they continually turn back for more abuse. It becomes habit for them. And breaking that is very hard. I would never encourage ANYONE to turn their marriage dynamic into an abusive relationship in order for the Loyal Spouse to mete out punishment for past (and future) wrongs!

Now while it may be more or less absolutist to say that the betrayed spouse can only be trusted with negatives (I mean, they may agree that the yard needs mowing!) it still stands: if you are a person who will not forgive, and instead engages in Now I've Got You, you are damaging your relationship just as much, or more, that the affair did. In fact, I'd say there is a HUGE chance your spouse will BOLT to the nearest empathetic soul.

Here, for information are the payoffs for Now I've Got You, You SOB:

* Confirmation of existential position: "I'm okay, men/women are not okay", "Men/women can't be trusted"
* Justification for inability to control rage and abusive behavior.
* Avoidance of personal issues causing the rage by focusing on the other person
* Projection of disowned aspects of self
* Habitual behavioral pattern to create intense stimulation -- negative strokes are familiar. 

----------------
Now playing: Mozart - Symphony No. 38 in D Major, K. 504 'Prague' - 3 - Presto
via FoxyTunes


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

In a nut shell...by not forgiving THEM, YOU are allowing your spouse to continually hurt YOU, by forgiving them, THEY can no longer hurt YOU (in a sense)..YOU have forgiven THEM.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Tanelornpete said:


> I will preface this with the fact that I understand what you are saying - that there must be conditions met in an affair situation before recovery can happen. I agree 100% But I also posit that you are not understanding what _I_ am saying.


I don't think you understand what I am writing as much as you think you do. 

And I am sure that that I do not agree with a lot of your suppositions made in the same binary fashion you rail against in your posting.



Tanelornpete said:


> In essence, I am arguing that to make claims in absolute language (I 'can't' or 'won't forgive - or 'I refuse to forgive') are equally as disastrous to a marriage as is an affair, and that unless people train the way they think to begin to see that how they think affects all of their lives, they will go on to other troubles. Or, the unexamined life is not worth living. To quote a famous guy.


Socrates was wise, but I also do not think he had assurance of only one point of view as a result of such an examination.

The context of someone claiming to not ever be able to forgive makes a difference.

Screamed at their cheating spouse on D Day? Muttered every day at them over breakfast for a decade? Said upon finding out a one-night stand was really a decade-long affair?

Expressions of hurt illustrate the depth of pain. You do get that don't you?



Tanelornpete said:


> You neglect a very important proposition in my argument. I am pointing out the refusal to forgive, _period_. That is, a person who will NEVER forgive (one who 'feels' that they 'CAN'T.')


Discounted is not the same as ignored. See above regarding context.



Tanelornpete said:


> I made no mention of waiting for 'conditions' to be met before forgiveness can be given . . . (although I disagree _entirely _with that premise as well, on entirely different grounds. It is possible to forgive but also to not accept any crossing of boundaries. The two are not exclusive.) The only condition I see as necessary is that the hurtful action must have actually occurred.


True, I brought up the conditions as a necessary component for some of us. You don't get to decide whether such a statement can be made. 

The linkage you don't agree with can be made. It is valid for some of us--just not you.



Tanelornpete said:


> Hence, if you consider what I said (refuse to forgive) and what you wrote: "....does not mean a betrayed person is indulging in 24/7 emotional punishing, insisting on a cheating spouse grovel forevermore..." you will see that is EXACTLY what happens.


I do not agree that this is a foregone conclusion. Just because you state it to be so.



Tanelornpete said:


> Unless you forgive, BY DEFINITION you are therefore constrained to retain resentment, and require requital for an offense, etc. Since there is a _refusal_ to forgive, you must therefore choose these other requirements instead. And I've seen many people try to live that way: there are threads all over this site of people who go for years unwilling to forgive, buried in anger, stress, and score keeping.


Nobody forces someone to behave badly. Seems to me that that if someone cheats and has effed up their life they should do whatever it takes to fix it. If they see that they have so emotionally wounded their spouse with their lousy behavior, then they should attempt to repair it despite not having this holy grail of forgiveness you insist upon.





Tanelornpete said:


> These things are necessary for _recovery and growth_ - for a healthy relationship, not forgiveness. But at the same time, I will _always_ argue that unless forgiveness is granted, _absolutely no_ recovery or growth can be attained. Without forgiveness, the marriage stagnates into a battle of tit-for-tat, score keeping and continual love busters/extinguishers. All that happens is that the 'injured' spouse keeps finding hoops, and lashing out in anger and other emotional bombs that keep the relationship from moving upward to a better place.


Again, with the binary thinking you rail against. You do not know what someone who has not forgiven is going through or expressing to their cheating spouse.



Tanelornpete said:


> _Yes I am_. Only God can forgive for things you WILL do (they are a certainty to Him.) It is neither possible, or rational to forgive someone for something they have not done. Only for what they DID - an action performed, past tense. Forgiveness, by definition, FOLLOWS (occurs after) a prior action.


You utterly misunderstood what I meant when i wrote:


michzz said:


> BTW, you are presuming also that the forgiveness is for something in the past. It isn't always, even if framed as something in the past.


I was referring to case, which I experienced firsthand, where a person is led to believe that something was in the past, over and done. So forgiveness was given. In reality? The affair was still ongoing and escalating. And in fact using the betrayed spouse's willingness to move on as a great way to get their eye off the continued betrayal.

This is not about God, it's about a married couple. 

Getting bogged down in the semantics of past, present, and future tense is not too useful when you misunderstand the comment.



Tanelornpete said:


> I do not take such a tact. But I will always argue that in nearly every case of adultery, the issue, the cause of the adultery, was not the Disloyal Spouse seeking some way to harm the person they love, honor and cherish. _Those feelings are at beast diminished by the time the adultery happens._ In all instances I've ever seen, there are problems that created the environment in which an affair THEN appeared to be a credible option! And I will always argue that NO GROWTH can happen in the marriage until these troubles are addressed. AT BEST, all that will happen is an uneasy truce that quite often ends up in another affair. Things 'go back to the way they were.'
> 
> And what you advocate: the Loyal Spouse is thereby entitled to dictate punishments, penances, and various other forms of simpering and grovelling, possibly permanently. And you seem to advocate that the Loyal Spouse is OWED this state of permanent obeisance. I say absolutely not.


Your interpretation of what I advocate is strictly your own and kind of offensive. I realize you wrote with the intention of inciting anger. Please refer to Socrates again.



Tanelornpete said:


> If you took the time to study up on our method of treating this issue, you'd see that we do place certain requirements on the returning spouse: call them hoops, if you'd like. These are actions that are designed to demonstrate to the Loyal Spouse that the Disloyal one is fully committed to returning to the relationship and is also committed to working on the marriage.


No thanks. If your postings to me are an indication of your therapeutic methodology, I know you're not for me.




Tanelornpete said:


> It is impossible for someone to relieve anyone else's guilt, unless you mean forensically (in other words, declare they no longer owe you.) The most you can do is understand that you will no longer hold their actions as a means of demanding that they perform certain acts for you in order to make you feel like they are experiencing some of the pain you felt.


What I was referring to was pretty easy to understand. Lots of cheaters confess out of guilt. Relieving their burden but creating one for their spouse.




Tanelornpete said:


> I don't see it as a negative to insist on truth, or dramatic proof of changed behavior in any case, ever. In fact, I see that as the only means of growth in a marriage. I disagree that these hoops must be insisted upon before offering forgiveness. YOu can easily forgive someone and refuse to take them back into your house until they show signs of a desire to commit. What I am arguing is that it is an entirely wrong approach to demand obesiance, sacrifice, and gifts designed to inflate your ego and humiliate your spouse in order until you deem that they have suffered enough to make you feel better. In other words, you can forgive a person, refusing to consider that they must do penance, but still have a boundary set about YOU that protects you from the harm of adultery.
> 
> In fact, I'd say that this issue is MAINLY the desire to incorrectly place boundaries - they are places upon your spouse instead of you.


My perspective is of having a recalcitrant spouse who cheated for a long time. All the altruistic methods, one-sided fixes never cut through the baloney.

You keep mentioning obeisance, giftgiving, enacting punishment, etc. and presume that is what I am referring to.

Your conclusions are your own, not what I mean. 



Tanelornpete said:


> The idea of refusing to forgive does NOT include the idea of refusing to forgive until 'X' happens, unless 'X' is that moment 'just after the end of time.'


Sure it does. I mentioned context of when statements are made about refusing to forgive.

A lifetime is a very long time. refusing to forgive is a huge, huge defense mechanism and a powerful indicator to the person who wants forgiveness to change to gain it. 

Here's a concept: a cheater changes despite the lack of forgiveness. 

Anyway, I am done. I can't keep jousting on this. we will just butt heads.



Tanelornpete said:


> You wrote:
> 
> It seems a bit of a stretch to say that the one coping with their unfaithful spouse is the one creating damage in the relationship.​
> to which I replied:
> ...


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Question: is it alright to refuse to forgive your spouse for an affair? Or, should you wait until they make everything right before you forgive them? Or, should you offer forgiveness (I will not hold your past actions against you) 

My argument: it is entirely wrong to refuse to forgive a spouse. In fact, it is the hallmark of a twisted relationship. If you refuse to forgive, you should not be in a relationship.

But - is it alright to refuse to forgive until some effort is shown that a change is evident? 

If that was the entire argument, I would simply add that it is my opinion that this is a mistake. But my reasoning assumes something about forgiveness that for some reason is being dismissed, or overlooked, or ignored, or simply denied in this debate. 

Forgiveness is the notion that you will not hold someone's past over them. Holding their past over them means that you have a tool by which you can contrive to control their actions. 

While it is absolutely true that you can act morally and _not _use this as a means of manipulation, I put forth the somewhat novel idea that there is no use for a tool of manipulation unless you intend to use it that way. Instead of expecting your spouse (who has wronged you) to simply take your word for it that you won't use their past to manipulate them - why not cast the tool aside completely? Get it out of your marriage entirely.

Moreover, if you intend to use a person's past as a tool to control them, then I question your moral right to feel hurt when they did something that you didn't like (say...sleep with someone else...) Is it better to manipulate people's behavior through threat and guilt than it is to cheat? 

Or - are these symptoms of a relationship that is in trouble and needs some serious work?

_If you claim you forgive someone_ - and then you turn around and use the forgiven information as a tool to control: have you not shown that you lied to them? This puts the burden on you to remain moral. In other words, it's a lot harder to forgive someone than it is to refuse to do so. Maybe laziness is a reason why people are so reticent to take this step. 

NOTE: Forgiving someone _in NO WAY_ means that you therefore have removed any expectations from the marriage. Your boundaries are yours, regardless of your spouse. Or even if you have a spouse. An example is the boundary that you will not remain in a relationship with a person who cheats. Simple boundary, this leaves the OPTION to cheat open for your spouse - and also explains the result of this choice (you'll be gone.) 

For some reason people seem to equate forgiveness with an absence of the expectation of moral behavior from their spouse. It's as if, were you to forgive your spouse for a past affair - that all of the sudden you can no longer expect them to be faithful. If you forgive your spouse, all of the sudden, you give them the right to treat you like dirt again. 

But really - giving or withholding forgiveness doesn't change how they treat you - that is solely their decision. 

Forgiveness is a statement, a notification that you will no longer hold them indebted to you for THAT PARTICULAR action. This in NO WAY excuses them to proceed with another equal action. Moreover, the fact that you refuse to forgive them in no way causes them to stop their infidelity. You are absolutely in your rights to hold your spouse accountable for how they treat you from moment to moment. But the past is gone. What you have is NOW. And what you do with NOW is what counts.



> The context of someone claiming to not ever be able to forgive makes a difference.


Yes indeed it does, and that is my entire point! I stated very clearly that it is both wrong to refuse forgive your spouse - and to expect to stay in a relationship where forgiveness is not given. 

However, refusing to forgive, and _hesitating _to give it are two different things. 



> Expressions of hurt illustrate the depth of pain. You do get that don't you?


They can. But I also know that they can also be used to exploit guilt as a means of manipulation. I've seen both uses. 



> Nobody forces someone to behave badly. Seems to me that that if someone cheats and has effed up their life they should do whatever it takes to fix it. If they see that they have so emotionally wounded their spouse with their lousy behavior, then they should attempt to repair it despite not having this holy grail of forgiveness you insist upon.


Without a doubt you are right. NOTHING I have argued in ANY way excuses the Disloyal Spouse from doing what is right. That is THEIR responsibility. They must act to restore the marriage REGARDLESS of receiving forgiveness. The point I am making regards granting it, not receiving it. Since the only use for refusing forgiveness is to be able to bring up the past as a means of control, I question even the slightest desire to refuse to forgive.

Regarding the fact that forgiveness only applies to past actions, the following disagreement is offered:



> I was referring to case, which I experienced firsthand, where a person is led to believe that something was in the past, over and done. So forgiveness was given. In reality? The affair was still ongoing and escalating. And in fact using the betrayed spouse's willingness to move on as a great way to get their eye off the continued betrayal.


This is no way negates the fact that you can only forgive what happens in the past. Your situation involved you forgiving what you thought was over. In other words, what was past. Would you have given forgiveness if your spouse had come to you and said, 'forgive me for having this affair...I've got to get into the Other Man's bed in half an hour, so please do it now'? 

No. What you forgave was the past. And under false pretenses. But this in no way negates the fact that you gave forgiveness, does it? The fact that you forgive and they continue to proceed are not the same thing. If you really need this to descend (ascend) to propositional language so that the syllogism is apparent, it can be done. But it seems to me that you are intelligent enough to see that forgiveness is the action of one person, and the actions forgiven is the action of another.

The fact that you forgave her for what you THOUGHT was past does not negate the fact that the ONLY thing you forgave was the past, does it? In other words, no proof has been offered to negate the idea that forgiveness is only given for past events.



> My perspective is of having a recalcitrant spouse who cheated for a long time. All the altruistic methods, one-sided fixes never cut through the baloney.


No they don't. As a matter of fact, they tend to add to it, which is why I separate forgiveness and boundaries. 



> Your interpretation of what I advocate is strictly your own and kind of offensive. I realize you wrote with the intention of inciting anger. Please refer to Socrates again.


My argument was apagogic. A relationship cannot thrive as long as there is no forgiveness. In fact, it cannot advance. The problem is what brought this to my attention in the first place. If you as a wounded spouse, determine what conditions are to be met in order to satisfy your requirements to grant forgiveness, then what are they - and how do you actually know that they have been fulfilled? What incite is granted to you to make this judgment? What order of omniscience gives you the assurance that there is no lie involved? I take it it did not go so well in your case! The affair continued! Does a brilliant light descend upon your lying spouse from On High the moment they tell you the real truth? Or, do you make a decision to accept their words? 

I am saying there is a much better way, a way that I've seen work. 



> A lifetime is a very long time. refusing to forgive is a huge, huge defense mechanism and a powerful indicator to the person who wants forgiveness to change to gain it.





> Here's a concept: a cheater changes despite the lack of forgiveness.


Here's the answer to that concept: the cheater gives up with trying to prove they HAVE changed and exit a now toxic marriage.

How about this concept: the cheater resolves to change, regardless of whether there is forgiveness of not, and works toward that goal. That is THEIR responsibility. And the hurt spouse resolves to never use the past as a means of manipulating or controlling their spouse. That is THEIR responsibility. 

And then BOTH spouses work TOGETHER to determine what happened in the first place, and take the necessary steps to change so that it never happens again?



> If your postings to me are an indication of your therapeutic methodology, I know you're not for me.


Our methods are not for everyone. I'm satisfied to be able to help as many as we have. I count that a blessing (=



> Anyway, I am done. I can't keep jousting on this. we will just butt heads.


I hope it all works out for you! I appreciate the chance to clarify something.

----------------
Now playing: Kaoru Wada - Prayer, Wish
via FoxyTunes


----------



## Banff (Feb 8, 2010)

Wow. That's a lot of back and forth. This is just my two cents on forgiveness, or at least in my situation. 

I needed desperately to forgive. For me as much as for our marriage. The choice to hold off on forgiveness will eat you alive. I don't know if it can be done without going crazy.

For me, I had to learn as much about forgiveness as I could. I had discussions with Pastors. Several with our counselor. And bought some books on the subject.

There were many times, early on, when I doubted it would be possible. Our marriage counselor said there will never be a perfect forgiveness. He has never seen it happen. That has helped me. So I can understand why there are still some small times when anger wells up. 

But working hard at forgiveness was a key part of our future. Maybe even the key part.

Never underestimate the power of bitterness and anger to destroy your life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Our marriage counselor said there will never be a perfect forgiveness. He has never seen it happen. That has helped me. So I can understand why there are still some small times when anger wells up.


Just an observation here - I don't see the two (experiencing emotions when you remember something and forgiveness) as mutually exclusive - I don't even see them as related. Forgetting and forgiving are not the same thing, nor is forgiveness an emotional state of being. It is the rational decision to refuse to hold a past action as a reason to control. You make the decision to forgive, which means that you will no longer require your spouse to may restitution for that particular action (whatever it was for which you forgave.)

You will still have emotional reactions to things you think about - that's the very essence of an emotion. It would be unreasonable for a person to think of a time when they were wronged and not feel some sort of dismay or anger, sadness or regret. But if you have forgiven your partner - you can no longer bring that action up as a tool by which you can then get them to do something for you.

Instead, you set boundaries around yourself - protection against actions that you don't want in your life. And you take the steps you need to protect yourself. That means, for example, that honesty is an essential need which you need for to be in a relationship. Your spouse, if they understand your boundary - is free to choose to cross it - but the cost could be separation, etc. It's up to you. 

What this means is that I disagree a _little_ with your counselor - I do agree that there is no perfect forgiveness - in that there is always the chance that we may slip up and fall into the trap of reminding your spouse of the 'time when they did X, Y, Z' and using that as a means of maneuvering them into performing A, B, or C. But I do not believe that FEELING like you have forgiven someone and the actual FORGIVING are identical. The idea is to tell them they are forgiven, and then act in a way that brings your actions into conformity with your words. You may nor may not someday 'feel' like you've forgiven. That in no way indicates that your words do not match your actions. It means that you still feel the pain. Totally understandable.

This doesn't even mean never talking about 'X,' or 'Y' again - that is dependent upon the context and the reason for bringing it up!


----------

