# I am affectionate... he doesn’t see it



## LadyB3 (Nov 10, 2020)

Hi everyone I am new here! 
My husband and I just had a discussion about me not being affectionate enough. He says that I only kiss him good morning and Goodnight and that I don’t start or initiate making love to him. 
i do !!! I feel like because I don’t do it often like 5 times a week (intense kissing leading to having sex) , he feels like I am not affectionate enough. Mind you we have 2 kids. A 5 year old and a 2 month old. What else should I do so he doesn’t feel this way???


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

It's alway frustrating when a spouse isn't interpreting actions as the other SO intends. As long as all are honest and not fudging when discussing. 

That's the first thing to be aware of. Don't let the difference become the gateway to a larger mess.

You've done great by identifying the roadblock here. A good first step.

One potential way to work through this is to get H to verbalize what in his mind is the ideal general circumstances he's shooting for and seeing how far apart you are.

And through the week be very blatant about when you're reaching out, etc, so he gets everytime the gist and acknowledges it.

This is perhaps a beginning.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

How often are you intimate? My LL is physical intimacy. When we were busy with younger kids, my wife would get busy with everything else and being intimate was not on her radar. She would always complain about being tired or aches and pains, i would rub her feet all the time and help with housework and kids. It would give her more time but none of it was used for us time. She just saw me as needy also, like the kids. 

She could tell i was upset and one evening she asked what the issue was. I brought up alone time and in a huffy voice she said "We just had sex the other day!" ......uh no we did not, that was almost 2 weeks ago. She was a little taken aback as she has been so consumed with other things that i was not even on the back burner, i was on a cooling rack on the counter. She had not even realized it had been 12-13 days since last time. For someone who maintains emotional bonds by physical intimacy, i was alone and resentful. 

Im just saying if you have to to keep track, put it in your calander on your phone. My wife believed almost 2 weeks ago was "just the other day" She did not realize.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Divinely Favored said:


> How often are you intimate? My LL is physical intimacy. When we were busy with younger kids, my wife would get busy with everything else and being intimate was not on her radar. She would always complain about being tired or aches and pains, i would rub her feet all the time and help with housework and kids. It would give her more time but none of it was used for us time. She just saw me as needy also, like the kids.
> 
> She could tell i was upset and one evening she asked what the issue was. I brought up alone time and in a huffy voice she said "We just had sex the other day!" ......uh no we did not, that was almost 2 weeks ago. She was a little taken aback as she has been so consumed with other things that i was not even on the back burner, i was on a cooling rack on the counter. She had not even realized it had been 12-13 days since last time. For someone who maintains emotional bonds by physical intimacy, i was alone and resentful.
> 
> Im just saying if you have to to keep track, put it in your calander on your phone. My wife believed almost 2 weeks ago was "just the other day" She did not realize.


My points exactly. 

OP, the reality of events is probably a little fuzzy from both, but because you've acknowledged there is a disconnect now there can be a solution. 

Try and boil it down to the essentials, and keep it simple. A simple solution is best.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

You need to know what his love language is. In other words, how he interprets love/affection.

There’s a whole test you can both take to see where you fall. Not everyone interprets love/affection the same way. Some people like physical touch, some like words, some like gifts, some like time, some like to have things done for them. It helps a lot to know how people interpret and feel loved. And then you have to be cognizant that you’re showing your partner love/affection the way that THEY interpret it, not the way YOU interpret it. You could give someone all the kisses and hugs you can muster, but if they interpret being loved by you giving them a gift, there’s going to be a disconnect.


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

@LadyB3, the love languages stuff refers to a book/test that you can find that describes the different languages and the test tells you your (and his if he takes it) predominant love language. I think the book is by Chapman.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LadyB3 said:


> Hi everyone I am new here!
> My husband and I just had a discussion about me not being affectionate enough. He says that I only kiss him good morning and Goodnight and that I don’t start or initiate making love to him.
> i do !!! I feel like because I don’t do it often like 5 times a week (intense kissing leading to having sex) , he feels like I am not affectionate enough. Mind you we have 2 kids. A 5 year old and a 2 month old. What else should I do so he doesn’t feel this way???


All "affection" means to most men is sex. They don't think it counts if it's just actual affection. It's really sad. There's something missing when a man can't just enjoy some nice affection and snuggling on the couch, and some can, but bottom line, none of it matters to them because sex is more often than not their number one priority. I've learned from being on this forum and others that most men simply will be wanting to leave a marriage if sex isn't on the table to their preferences. It's that important to them. Some will lie and say that's what makes them feel intimate with a woman, trying to guilt her, but it's all about sex to them. They don't like you if you're not having sex with you. 

Also, what's the matter with him that he needs YOU to initiate? Is he not confident or something? How thrilling. 

Good lord, you have two kids under five. What a ridiculous demand of you. He's selfish and childish and only thinking about his penis. He needs to grow up. And you sound like a nice affectionate woman who is having more sex than most would in your situation with two kids under five and that you're actually taking time to show him affection, so I'm sorry, but your man is a spoiled child. 

You need to set some boundaries with him and let him know that he's being selfish and not considering your needs and that it's not all about him. He's a father now.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

DownByTheRiver said:


> All "affection" means to most men is sex. They don't think it counts if it's just actual affection. It's really sad. There's something missing when a man can't just enjoy some nice affection and snuggling on the couch, and some can, but bottom line, none of it matters to them because sex is more often than not their number one priority. I've learned from being on this forum and others that most men simply will be wanting to leave a marriage if sex isn't on the table to their preferences. It's that important to them. Some will lie and say that's what makes them feel intimate with a woman, trying to guilt her, but it's all about sex to them. They don't like you if you're not having sex with you.
> 
> Also, what's the matter with him that he needs YOU to initiate? Is he not confident or something? How thrilling.
> 
> ...



I get very frustrated with my husband for this same issue. I work all day, do 99.9% of the running with the kids, cook dinner, do all the cleaning and laundry, etc. My husbands life is mostly work and recreation. That’s a whole other story in and of itself. But then he also wants to know why I rarely initiate. It’s usually because I’m worn out and I’ve told him that. When I feel like I take care of everything, initiating just feels like another job I have to take care of and it loses it’s luster. And MAYBE just MAYBE I would like him to initiate so that I feel like everything I do is appreciated and my husband has desire for me instead of just feeling like the employee, the maid, the cook, the nanny.

But, my husband ALSO has the problem that affection = sex. I can’t kiss him without being groped. I can’t hug him without my butt being grabbed. And I get it, that’s fun too. But honestly, getting groped EVERY time you give a kiss goodnight sure starts to feel like the sex is more important than just the general affection and I start to feel like just a warm body instead of loved.


----------



## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

LadyB3 said:


> What else should I do so he doesn’t feel this way???


Ask why he feels that way without judgement, becoming defensive or denying.

Accept that his feelings might not be rational, correct or easy to understand.

Men are sensitive to changes in sexual behavior which women might believe are unimportant or are shocked that their man feels that way. 

For example a woman avoiding or limiting tongue kissing to less than a minute when she liked it enthusiastically before. Perhaps your not as engaged with your H as you are with the baby.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LosingHim said:


> I get very frustrated with my husband for this same issue. I work all day, do 99.9% of the running with the kids, cook dinner, do all the cleaning and laundry, etc. My husbands life is mostly work and recreation. That’s a whole other story in and of itself. But then he also wants to know why I rarely initiate. It’s usually because I’m worn out and I’ve told him that. When I feel like I take care of everything, initiating just feels like another job I have to take care of and it loses it’s luster. And MAYBE just MAYBE I would like him to initiate so that I feel like everything I do is appreciated and my husband has desire for me instead of just feeling like the employee, the maid, the cook, the nanny.
> 
> But, my husband ALSO has the problem that affection = sex. I can’t kiss him without being groped. I can’t hug him without my butt being grabbed. And I get it, that’s fun too. But honestly, getting groped EVERY time you give a kiss goodnight sure starts to feel like the sex is more important than just the general affection and I start to feel like just a warm body instead of loved.


So many men are just in love with sex and not really their woman.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TAMAT said:


> Ask why he feels that way without judgement, becoming defensive or denying.
> 
> Accept that his feelings might not be rational, correct or easy to understand.
> 
> ...


No one is going to be as involved with their husband as they are their baby. Babies require constant attention and husbands shouldn't.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No one is going to be as involved with their husband as they are their baby. Babies require constant attention and husbands shouldn't.


QFT -Really should be able to like something more than once


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> *All "affection" means to most men is sex.* They don't think it counts if it's just actual affection. It's really sad. There's something missing when a man can't just enjoy some nice affection and snuggling on the couch, and some can, but bottom line, none of it matters to them because sex is more often than not their number one priority. I've learned from being on this forum and others that most men simply will be wanting to leave a marriage if sex isn't on the table to their preferences. It's that important to them. Some will lie and say that's what makes them feel intimate with a woman, trying to guilt her, but it's all about sex to them. They don't like you if you're not having sex with you.


*No*. Affection does not always have to lead to sex. But it should SOMETIMES lead to sex. When affection is split off from sexual intimacy, it may be felt as rejection. And when a man or woman tries to establish two very separate things, one for "affection" and one for "sex"... that can be the beginning of the end. Anticipation of sex is a bigger thing than sex itself. A guy... he orgasms in what, 2 minutes? 6 minutes? If it's over 15 minutes he might be used to his wife complaining it takes too long? If that's all there is to life, what a disappointment!

But there's more to physical intimacy including sex than that brief window of time. Much much more. It includes the hugs, the kisses, the promises of something more. And that something more doesn't have to be that night. Or even the next. But a word or two about looking forward to it, with a date attached. Wow. Makes such a huge difference to the guy, or the woman I would imagine. "Tomorrow night you'll get everything you want", said in a playful loving manner, will likely send your partner to the moon. The snuggling on the couch is a prelude.

To try and separate the two, snuggling/kissing/hugging vs complete intimacy, is often inappropriate and leads to unintended consequences. Less frequent sex, with lead-up, is far more powerful than more-frequent sex to "serve a need."

Having said all this, with a 5 year old and a 2 month old, you got to wonder if this guy is giving his wife enough slack. We don't know much from the single post. But it is a concern when I see a lack of understanding how it comes across when one person says "I'm doing all this, hugging, kissing, I show him/her how much I love him/her all the time, but the only thing he/she seems to care about is sex."

So, make sure the husband understands what reasonable expectations for full physical intimacy might be, and then make it worthwhile, build to it, and stop trying to separate partial intimacy from full intimacy. One should blend into the other.

Full disclaimer: Yes, I'm projecting, because I got the "there's more to live than just sex" speech all the time, as she was trying to blame me for her resentment of sex. Not saying that's the case here, but over time, it can become so. It is just so easy to make that claim, that all he cares about is sex, when in reality what he cares about is that sex is more than just 6 to 15 minutes a few times a week. Like I said, it should be a blend, and the foreplay is for days, not half an hour.


----------



## LadyB3 (Nov 10, 2020)

LosingHim said:


> I get very frustrated with my husband for this same issue. I work all day, do 99.9% of the running with the kids, cook dinner, do all the cleaning and laundry, etc. My husbands life is mostly work and recreation. That’s a whole other story in and of itself. But then he also wants to know why I rarely initiate. It’s usually because I’m worn out and I’ve told him that. When I feel like I take care of everything, initiating just feels like another job I have to take care of and it loses it’s luster. And MAYBE just MAYBE I would like him to initiate so that I feel like everything I do is appreciated and my husband has desire for me instead of just feeling like the employee, the maid, the cook, the nanny.
> 
> But, my husband ALSO has the problem that affection = sex. I can’t kiss him without being groped. I can’t hug him without my butt being grabbed. And I get it, that’s fun too. But honestly, getting groped EVERY time you give a kiss goodnight sure starts to feel like the sex is more important than just the general affection and I start to feel like just a warm body instead of loved.


Yes yes yes ! You get exactly what I am saying !


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> *No*. Affection does not always have to lead to sex. But it should SOMETIMES lead to sex. When affection is split off from sexual intimacy, it may be felt as rejection. And when a man or woman tries to establish two very separate things, one for "affection" and one for "sex"... that can be the beginning of the end. Anticipation of sex is a bigger thing than sex itself. A guy... he orgasms in what, 2 minutes? 6 minutes? If it's over 15 minutes he might be used to his wife complaining it takes too long? If that's all there is to life, what a disappointment!
> 
> But there's more to physical intimacy including sex than that brief window of time. Much much more. It includes the hugs, the kisses, the promises of something more. And that something more doesn't have to be that night. Or even the next. But a word or two about looking forward to it, with a date attached. Wow. Makes such a huge difference to the guy, or the woman I would imagine. "Tomorrow night you'll get everything you want", said in a playful loving manner, will likely send your partner to the moon. The snuggling on the couch is a prelude.
> 
> ...


I get your point, but the thing is that's a male perspective and it's completely setting aside the woman's needs and what she values. A lot of women value affection and attention way more highly than they would frequent sex which isn't always desirable especially when you have two toddlers.

Sounds like this man needs a reality check about what it means to be a parent. I will tell you that there are a lot of them that never understand it until in the divorce they are given joint custody and have to do half of the work themselves.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

LadyB3 said:


> Yes yes yes ! You get exactly what I am saying !


You should read that to your husband. He may not understand. I’m exhausted just reading that.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I get your point, but the thing is that's a male perspective and it's completely setting aside the woman's needs and what she values. A lot of women value affection and attention way more highly than they would frequent sex which isn't always desirable especially when you have two toddlers.
> 
> Sounds like this man needs a reality check about what it means to be a parent. I will tell you that there are a lot of them that never understand it until in the divorce they are given joint custody and have to do half of the work themselves.


First, I really don't like getting into these generalities, but sometimes there are reasons for them. OK, so the guy may in fact need a reality check in being a parent, but there are also many cases discussed here where, despite the guy actually being a pretty darned good provider _and_ parent, the wife has detached herself somewhat emotionally from the husband and put the kids as first priority. Kids are important but so is the marriage, and you just gotta keep room in your heart for your husband. 

And again, it's not about "frequent" sex. It's about keeping it "there." Like I said, a long leadup. Stop focusing on the idea that "sex" is this 6-to-15 minute thing for your husband. It's not. It's also the caress, the kissing, the squeezing of whatever. The more a woman tries to separate the two, the greater the feeling of rejection. The more you tell your husband "why is everything all about sex" the more it becomes just that, in appearance. Let it be a natural thing. Less often, more beautiful.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Kids are always going to be a higher priority than the husband. It's just the way it is. They're an actual part of the mother and are dependent on the mother from birth, so the bond is stronger than the partner bond.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TAMAT said:


> Ask why he feels that way without judgement, becoming defensive or denying.
> 
> Accept that his feelings might not be rational, correct or easy to understand.
> 
> ...


Not really surprising when the baby is just a few weeks old. I was too tired to even think at that stage.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

LadyB, you’re in a familiar battle. TAM is full of threads of how things go wrong when sex is involved. It can be a minefield and you’re not alone in trying to figure it out. Communication is key. Hopefully, you and your husband will be able to agree on a path that works for both of you.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> *No*. Affection does not always have to lead to sex. But it should SOMETIMES lead to sex. When affection is split off from sexual intimacy, it may be felt as rejection. And when a man or woman tries to establish two very separate things, one for "affection" and one for "sex"... that can be the beginning of the end. Anticipation of sex is a bigger thing than sex itself. A guy... he orgasms in what, 2 minutes? 6 minutes? If it's over 15 minutes he might be used to his wife complaining it takes too long? If that's all there is to life, what a disappointment!
> 
> But there's more to physical intimacy including sex than that brief window of time. Much much more. It includes the hugs, the kisses, the promises of something more. And that something more doesn't have to be that night. Or even the next. But a word or two about looking forward to it, with a date attached. Wow. Makes such a huge difference to the guy, or the woman I would imagine. "Tomorrow night you'll get everything you want", said in a playful loving manner, will likely send your partner to the moon. The snuggling on the couch is a prelude.
> 
> ...



No, you really don't know this. Many men really do just want quick sex and they aren't interested in "foreplay for days", don't flirt, and don't anticipate being with their wife for days. They sometimes are not very interested in their wife as a person. But they still want to use her for sex.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

LadyB3 said:


> Yes yes yes ! You get exactly what I am saying !


But just imagine if the tables were turned, he was a wonderfully-responsive and loving guy until he took a new job with added new responsibilities and if you reached out to put your arm around him in bed, reaching back to you was the last thing on his mind because he was just bone-dead-tired. And you start to wonder, is it something about you? Or is he having an affair? Because that's not how he was before. What happened to the guy you married?

He's scared to death he's losing you. And in response, you're telling him how wrong it is that everything is about sex. You're angry because you've got all this extra work that has to get done, taking care of the kids and the house. He's angry because he never saw this coming and is that how it's going to be for the rest of the marriage.

You're at the very beginning of... fill in the dots on your own. What's the scariest scenario you can imagine, and what is the best. Maybe that's an exercise both of you should do independently, and then compare notes. Face the future today, and get some counseling while it has a chance to really make a difference for you. You'll be WAY ahead of the game compared to most everyone here on TAM. Learn to communicate, find solutions, don't get angry, look for the win-win scenario. Get him to shoulder more responsibility for taking care of the house and kids, do more things together. Imagine how you want things 5 years down the road. What will it take to make that happen.

It is wonderful that you came here asking about this, because it shows concern, not inevitability.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> But just imagine if the tables were turned, he was a wonderfully-responsive and loving guy until he took a new job with added new responsibilities and if you reached out to put your arm around him in bed, reaching back to you was the last thing on his mind because he was just bone-dead-tired. And you start to wonder, is it something about you? Or is he having an affair? Because that's now how he was before. What happened to the guy you married?
> 
> He's scared to death he's losing you. And in response, you're telling him how wrong it is that everything is about sex. You're angry because you've got all this extra work that has to get done, taking care of the kids and the house. He's angry because he never saw this coming and is that how it's going to be for the rest of the marriage.
> 
> ...


THIS...THIS is BRILLIANT!!!!!!


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Livvie said:


> No, you really don't know this. Many men really do just want quick sex and they aren't interested in "foreplay for days", don't flirt, and don't anticipate being with their wife for days. They sometimes are not very interested in their wife as a person. But they still want to use her for sex.


And of course, you know more about women than I do, because I'm a man. But you also know more about men than I do too? 

It's pretty obvious the misunderstandings run both ways. One thing we can hopefully agree on- rejection makes each feel less valued as a person, and gets in the way of solutions. It just makes things worse. And there's plenty of rejection on both sides. We have to get past that, we have to consider how we can handle a given situation without the other person feeling rejected.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> And of course, you know more about women than I do, because I'm a man. But you also know more about men than I do too?
> 
> It's pretty obvious the misunderstandings run both ways. One thing we can hopefully agree on- rejection makes each feel less valued as a person, and gets in the way of solutions. It just makes things worse. And there's plenty of rejection on both sides. We have to get past that, we have to consider how we can handle a given situation without the other person feeling rejected.


Well, YES I do know more about men IN A SEXUAL relationship than you do. I've been in intimate relationships with various men for decades. Starting with teen dating, through long term relationships, and a long marriage. 

How many men have you been in a sexual relationship with?!??

Oh and I have had girlfriends for decades, too. We talk about our sexual relationships with men together, you know.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm willing to bet that a mother of 


Casual Observer said:


> But just imagine if the tables were turned, he was a wonderfully-responsive and loving guy until he took a new job with added new responsibilities and if you reached out to put your arm around him in bed, reaching back to you was the last thing on his mind because he was just bone-dead-tired. And you start to wonder, is it something about you? Or is he having an affair? Because that's now how he was before. What happened to the guy you married?
> 
> He's scared to death he's losing you. And in response, you're telling him how wrong it is that everything is about sex. You're angry because you've got all this extra work that has to get done, taking care of the kids and the house. He's angry because he never saw this coming and is that how it's going to be for the rest of the marriage.
> 
> ...


But that's just insecurities he needs to work on. I mean, not having sex sometimes also happens before you get married, so it shouldn't be that rude of a shock. Sometimes people are tired -- and sometimes they just aren't focused on sex. 

I'm willing to bet that most mothers would choose option number 2 here. 
1) Hubby comes home after you've been slopping the kids all day and starts groping you for sex.
2) Hubby comes home, hears the two-year-old shrieking, puts his arm around you and says, "I don't know how you do it all day," and offers to spell you for 30 minutes to an hour so you can go shower and lay down or go to the store without packing the kids. In other words, hears you, understands and appreciates what you've been doing all day, and helps you instead of foisting his needs on you. 

I also would bet this is a better road to more sex in the future, but even if it isn't....


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm willing to bet that a mother of
> 
> But that's just insecurities he needs to work on. I mean, not having sex sometimes also happens before you get married, so it shouldn't be that rude of a shock. Sometimes people are tired -- and sometimes they just aren't focused on sex.
> 
> ...


No. Argument. There. Really excellent. 

It's just so tough to be as empathetic as one should about what someone else is going through. Even when it's so blindingly obvious! To get there, for me, I had to institute a 5 second rule. I have 5 seconds to decide to do something for my wife, no matter what it is. 5 seconds to buy-in totally. And what happens if I take more than 5 seconds? I've spent too much time thinking about ways to not do something, to not be empathetic to her needs. You have to act fast and things go so much better. Cleaning the kitchen floor. Doing the dishes. Cleaning the gutters. Whatever it is she asks, don't think, just do, and YOU (the person doing what's asked) feel so much better about it.

What happens next? You start anticipating, doing things for her BEFORE she asks.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Well, YES I do know more about men IN A SEXUAL relationship than you do. I've been in intimate relationships with various men for decades. Starting with teen dating, through long term relationships, and a long marriage.
> 
> How many men have you been in a sexual relationship with?!??
> 
> Oh and I have had girlfriends for decades, too. We talk about our sexual relationships with men together, you know.


The "you" was not meant to be specific; my apologies for coming across in a personal way on that. I value your observations, but still believe preselection causes issues for making generalities. There are things about each of us that attracts certain people, repels others. But in the end, I get a lot out of conversations with those far more experienced in terms of variety of partners, than I. Whether others get much out of my different history, is not for me to answer.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> No. Argument. There. Really excellent.
> 
> It's just so tough to be as empathetic as one should about what someone else is going through. Even when it's so blindingly obvious! To get there, for me, I had to institute a 5 second rule. I have 5 seconds to decide to do something for my wife, no matter what it is. 5 seconds to buy-in totally. And what happens if I take more than 5 seconds? I've spent too much time thinking about ways to not do something, to not be empathetic to her needs. You have to act fast and things go so much better. Cleaning the kitchen floor. Doing the dishes. Cleaning the gutters. Whatever it is she asks, don't think, just do, and YOU (the person doing what's asked) feel so much better about it.
> 
> What happens next? You start anticipating, doing things for her BEFORE she asks.


Some people just have more empathy for others. But one way to get empathy for a busy mother is to stay home and take care of the kids for a couple of days all by yourself. Then you get the idea. If you're a mean person, it may only make you more dedicated to not helping, but if you're a normal person, you'll at least be able to sympathize with her and hopefully be more willing to pitch in. 

Of course, there are some man jobs that women can't even fathom either, but I think a lot of women are naturally more empathetic.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Some people just have more empathy for others. But one way to get empathy for a busy mother is to stay home and take care of the kids for a couple of days all by yourself. Then you get the idea. If you're a mean person, it may only make you more dedicated to not helping, but if you're a normal person, you'll at least be able to sympathize with her and hopefully be more willing to pitch in.
> 
> Of course, there are some man jobs that women can't even fathom either, but I think a lot of women are naturally more empathetic.


I wish... the idea that somebody living in your shoes will likely develop empathy for you. That's logical. Makes sense. But just doesn't seem to work for many; they just get angry & frustrated and give up and somehow, for some reason, don't develop the empathy for your experience that you expect. Maybe it's because they're expected to so they come in with the wrong frame of mind?

I don't think it has to do with being mean or nice. Or maybe it's the definition?


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> rejection makes each feel less valued as a person


and, from a man's point of view.....it doesn't matter how many hugs, peck kisses, surprise pastries (which I shouldn't eat) I get...... I KNOW my wife doesn't really want to have sex with me.... she can make my favorite meals, buy me clothes (which will all have shirt-tail out, and I think that makes me look stupid and a slob), even bring me Chick-Fil-A sandwiches.....

When you know that, NOTHING ELSE matters. There is no substitute. 



DownByTheRiver said:


> that's just insecurities he needs to work on.


How ?? With what ?? Some of us are simply sexually condemned. I hope OP's husband is not one of us..... I think OP's case is more of an overloaded, bone-tired mom who needs a break (but with a 2-month-old, there probably isn't going to be one)..... she just isn't thinking about sex......


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> I wish... the idea that somebody living in your shoes will likely develop empathy for you. That's logical. Makes sense. But just doesn't seem to work for many; they just get angry & frustrated and give up and somehow, for some reason, don't develop the empathy for your experience that you expect. Maybe it's because they're expected to so they come in with the wrong frame of mind?
> 
> I don't think it has to do with being mean or nice. Or maybe it's the definition?


Or they're selfish or narcissistic. Don't really care. Just want what they want. Oftentimes the case, especially with sex.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TJW said:


> and, from a man's point of view.....it doesn't matter how many hugs, peck kisses, surprise pastries (which I shouldn't eat) I get...... I KNOW my wife doesn't really want to have sex with me.... she can make my favorite meals, buy me clothes (which will all have shirt-tail out, and I think that makes me look stupid and a slob), even bring me Chick-Fil-A sandwiches.....
> 
> When you know that, NOTHING ELSE matters. There is no substitute.
> 
> ...


Sexually condemned. I think that's true for some and for some just at different times -- and for many, condemned or stuck in other ways. Thing is I really think it's sad that nothing else matters to you. One's life shouldn't hinge on sex or any one thing, really. I just see someone who needs a higher purpose.

I think maybe that's the disconnect. Kids are pretty much instantly a higher purpose to women and to a lot of men as well.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Or they're selfish or narcissistic. Don't really care. Just want what they want. Oftentimes the case, especially with sex.


I was married to one of those for decades. He’s the reason I won‘t remarry. I don’t trust myself to find someone who isn’t similar.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Those kind of people keep caring people hoping they'll change or that there really is more depth to them than there is......it's sad.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Or they're selfish or narcissistic. Don't really care. Just want what they want. Oftentimes the case, especially with sex.


That cuts both ways though, in terms of knowing what they want, or don't want. Each party looks for reinforcement of what they're already doing. That's normal. You have to step back once in a while, no matter how strongly you believe you're right, and consider, what if there's another option? Which is a bit different from suggesting the other person is right. They don't need to be right, you don't need to be wrong, for it to make sense to try something else.

To the OP, I hope she's getting something out of what she's stirred up! Mostly, I think it important that both she and her husband understand where things can lead, if they both keep going down the same path. Perhaps the most-important things in a relationship, the things that determine longevity, are about losing feelings about being right & wrong about things.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

TJW said:


> and, from a man's point of view.....it doesn't matter how many hugs, peck kisses, surprise pastries (which I shouldn't eat) I get...... I KNOW my wife doesn't really want to have sex with me.... she can make my favorite meals, buy me clothes (which will all have shirt-tail out, and I think that makes me look stupid and a slob), even bring me Chick-Fil-A sandwiches.....
> 
> When you know that, NOTHING ELSE matters. There is no substitute.


You're making the argument that, when sex is nothing, everything is sex. A bit over the top (exaggerated) but the concept is real. Your wife has made sex something you think about constantly because there is so little of it. And all of the thinking is negative. You've also boxed yourself into a corner that you can't escape from, because she has the upper hand; there's nothing you can really do about it if she's fixed in her thinking. And so you start wondering what the point to continuing being married is, and what lead to that thinking, and you're back to square one of it being all about sex and to her the problem is that it shouldn't be all about sex. 

You can't get there from here. Best to not get there in the first place. Again, OP has a real opportunity here to see how things can play out down the road.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I get your point, but the thing is that's a male perspective and it's completely setting aside the woman's needs and what she values. A lot of women value affection and attention way more highly than they would frequent sex which isn't always desirable especially when you have two toddlers.
> 
> Sounds like this man needs a reality check about what it means to be a parent. I will tell you that there are a lot of them that never understand it until in the divorce they are given joint custody and have to do half of the work themselves.


But there are 2 sides....not just hers. Problem is some of us do not feel affectionate or show attention to someone we feel like is a sister. Without physical intimacy a couple times a week i would withdrawl emotionally and start feeling like wife was just a female family member. You perspective sets aside the mans needs. With moderate physical intimacy i am much more connected and engaged with wife in all other aspects of relationship.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> But there are 2 sides....not just hers. Problem is some of us do not feel affectionate or show attention to someone we feel like is a sister. Without physical intimacy a couple times a week i would withdrawl emotionally and start feeling like wife was just a female family member. You perspective sets aside the mans needs. *With moderate physical intimacy i am much more connected and engaged with wife in all other aspects of relationship.*


My question is whether it's important, to you, if she will say she's not really feeling it tonight but promises (and follows through) tomorrow? Or if you'd rather have sex more often, on your own timetable, provided because it's an obligation? And does that promise kind of light you up, give you something to look forward to, that makes it more special than her just saying OK, we can have sex tonight? 

Maybe it's just me that's fueled by anticipation.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Divinely Favored said:


> But there are 2 sides....not just hers. Problem is some of us do not feel affectionate or show attention to someone we feel like is a sister. Without physical intimacy a couple times a week i would withdrawl emotionally and start feeling like wife was just a female family member. You perspective sets aside the mans needs. With moderate physical intimacy i am much more connected and engaged with wife in all other aspects of relationship.


Even knowing she's doing it against her will? How is that fulfilling to you?


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I do want to say that I do acknowledge that it is a two-sided problem. I think it's one of the most common ones and one of the most unlikely to be resolved. I think the more you push for obligation or compromise the further away you push the other person.

I guess the crux of the problem is that women are much more dependent on emotions about sex and about conditions being right. I think it's hard to sustain attraction when you've been together for years on both sides. I think women need to have all these different facets working before they want to have sex with you. And I think men just want sex and don't understand why that's a big deal to women.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> But there are 2 sides....not just hers. Problem is some of us do not feel affectionate or show attention to someone we feel like is a sister. Without physical intimacy a couple times a week i would withdrawl emotionally and start feeling like wife was just a female family member. You perspective sets aside the mans needs. With moderate physical intimacy i am much more connected and engaged with wife in all other aspects of relationship.





DownByTheRiver said:


> Even knowing she's doing it against her will? How is that fulfilling to you?


Agreed; that's a terrible scenario, made even more terrible when revealed retroactively. Imagine @LadyB3 telling her husband, way down the road, that she's resented sex for years. Doing it out of duty or whatever. That's where this could lead. It's not a pretty place, and it's very much an avoidable place.

If a man or woman finds joy or pleasure that comes from doing something for their wife or husband, without physical pleasure of her own, I don't have an issue with that. There may be a lot of things we do for a partner that the enjoyment we feel comes from what it does for them, things we would otherwise prefer not to do. That is a part of love for someone. But it doesn't work if someone isn't empathetic and can't relate to what something means to the other person.

I consider what I described in the paragraph above to be something special and bonding, because the couple are tuned in and aware of each other and put each others wants and desires ahead of their own. It's not a sacrifice when it's freely given. It is, to me, the ideal for an HD/LD relationship, providing you accept LD within the narrowed parameters of not enjoying sexuality on your own, not a priority for yourself, and OK with the idea that your partner gets something different out of sex than you do. It also places a lot of responsibility on the part of the HD person, who needs to understand what the LD person is getting out of it and respond appropriately. Crazy sex talk is probably the wrong path.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

It doesn't work when it's always one-sided and with sex and nearly always is.

Also, horniness doesn't inspire much empathy.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It doesn't work when it's always one-sided and with sex and nearly always is.


Could you elaborate on that? What makes sex so different than other things? For 30 years I disliked doing all sorts of things around the house. Then I decided to do things I disliked because they were special to my wife. And after not too long a time, they became things I enjoyed, because my wife enjoyed me doing them with her, for her. But trust me, the things I didn't like or enjoy doing were very one-sided. Things she really enjoyed but I didn't.

How far can you go with this? I'll even pick out the random movie to watch based on what she enjoys. Chick flicks. And I'll enjoy them with her. My preference, by myself? Er... Robocop would be at the top of my list. But I will sometimes, if she's not around or gone to bed early, watch a dumb chick flick myself, on my own. 

Of course, sex is, by definition, invasive. Watching a chick flick, going on vacation to a place she'll enjoy but it's way down on your own list, those aren't physically invasive like sex is. In the end, is that the difference?


----------



## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

LadyB3 said:


> My husband and I just had a discussion about me not being affectionate enough. He says that I only kiss him good morning and Goodnight and that I don’t start or initiate making love to him.


I just want to give credit to your husband for talking to you, and letting you know how he feels. Don’t ever shut that communication down.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> Could you elaborate on that? What makes sex so different than other things? For 30 years I disliked doing all sorts of things around the house. Then I decided to do things I disliked because they were special to my wife. And after not too long a time, they became things I enjoyed, because my wife enjoyed me doing them with her, for her. But trust me, the things I didn't like or enjoy doing were very one-sided. Things she really enjoyed but I didn't.
> 
> How far can you go with this? I'll even pick out the random movie to watch based on what she enjoys. Chick flicks. And I'll enjoy them with her. My preference, by myself? Er... Robocop would be at the top of my list. But I will sometimes, if she's not around or gone to bed early, watch a dumb chick flick myself, on my own.
> 
> Of course, sex is, by definition, invasive. Watching a chick flick, going on vacation to a place she'll enjoy but it's way down on your own list, those aren't physically invasive like sex is. In the end, is that the difference?


But everyone has to do things around the house whether they have a partner or not. Sex is supposed to be something you do because you both want to, because you're both in the mood and feeling it. It's not supposed to be a chore you expect someone to do for you. I mean we can all take care of our own sexual needs ourselves so it's not like there is no solution. Women have sex because they feel love and feel affectionate but they don't feel like that all the time. And they don't feel like that on someone else's schedule.

The quickest way I know to turn off a woman is to make her feel like you regard her as a prostitute who is there to serve you, to make it clear you feel your need overrides hers. It's selfish and disrespectful.

There is nothing you can do to be sure someone doesn't want to stop having sex with you. But yes women will eventually figure out if that's all you really care about, and it never sets well.

There certainly are high sex drive women out there, but that is likely going to change over time and in different circumstances such as taking care of kids.

I just suggest you don't just look for sex in a partner and you look for someone that you really enjoy just being with and that you think is interesting and that you like to talk to. Or stay single and see how long you can keep getting laid. I was coming of age in the '70s and back then if you were young and attractive, you could go out every night and get laid if you wanted to. But that doesn't last forever.


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Kids are always going to be a higher priority than the husband. It's just the way it is. They're an actual part of the mother and are dependent on the mother from birth, so the bond is stronger than the partner bond.


And this leads to MANY MANY problems later on in the marriage. The HUSBAND AND WIFE are, and SHOULD BE, the primary relationship. It needs to be nurtured by both partners. It does NOT mean neglecting the kids, friends, etc.. (and YES he needs to help out there as well and NOT leave it to the wife/mother only). Kids are important, but they will grow up and move away.
If you have neglected the marital relationship while the kids are growing, what is left when the kids leave?


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jlg07 said:


> And this leads to MANY MANY problems later on in the marriage. The HUSBAND AND WIFE are, and SHOULD BE, the primary relationship. It needs to be nurtured by both partners. It does NOT mean neglecting the kids, friends, etc.. Kids are important, but they will grow up and move away.
> If you have neglected the marital relationship while the kids are growing, what is left when the kids leave?


Oh I can answer that! How about divorce.


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Oh I can answer that! How about divorce.


Exactly my point!

A few other points now that I've caught up. NOBODY, men included, want pity or duty sex. It is NOT enjoyable. As much as folks here are saying men just want sex, they want CONNECTED sex. Contrary to popular belief men DO have emotions and that physical connection to the wife is usually (certainly NOT always) emotional connectivity also.

A wife should NOT HAVE to have sex -- she should want to, and the husband ALSO has to understand that her triggers are different than his. HE needs to put in the work to make it conducive for sex for her. SHE also needs to put in that same work. EVERYONE gets tired, but that is a poor excuse for putting marital relations at the bottom of the energy pile.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> And this leads to MANY MANY problems later on in the marriage. The HUSBAND AND WIFE are, and SHOULD BE, the primary relationship. It needs to be nurtured by both partners. It does NOT mean neglecting the kids, friends, etc.. (and YES he needs to help out there as well and NOT leave it to the wife/mother only). Kids are important, but they will grow up and move away.
> If you have neglected the marital relationship while the kids are growing, what is left when the kids leave?


But it's not like you have no marital relationship. It's like you have two mature adults who understand that the kids are the top priority and are going to take up the most time and energy. it's only when one partner doesn't get it that it's a problem. You asked just about any mother and her number one is going to be her children. It's nature.


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> But it's not like you have no marital relationship. It's like you have two mature adults who understand that the kids are the top priority and are going to take up the most time and energy. it's only when one partner doesn't get it that it's a problem. You asked just about any mother and her number one is going to be her children. It's nature.


I am saying that the kids being NUMBER ONE is WRONG if you want your marriage to survive. Your MARRIAGE should be the top priority. They will be number one at certain times and for certain things, but you CANNOT push your marriage to 2nd place all the time if you want it to survive long term.

I am not suggesting that the mother instinct isn't strong -- it should be. You BOTH (H and W) should want to keep them safe and give them a good life, but you cannot sacrifice what you have between each other for the kids.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

No woman I know buys into having duty sex, and not even in the 1950s. Sex shouldn't be work.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> All "affection" means to most men is sex. They don't think it counts if it's just actual affection. It's really sad. There's something missing when a man can't just enjoy some nice affection and snuggling on the couch, and some can, but bottom line, none of it matters to them because sex is more often than not their number one priority. I've learned from being on this forum and others that most men simply will be wanting to leave a marriage if sex isn't on the table to their preferences. It's that important to them. Some will lie and say that's what makes them feel intimate with a woman, trying to guilt her, but it's all about sex to them. They don't like you if you're not having sex with you.
> 
> Also, what's the matter with him that he needs YOU to initiate? Is he not confident or something? How thrilling.
> 
> ...


Ah, yes...

I do agree with this OP, the lady poster.
She is fine.
....................

Not so, this time, @DownByTheRiver 

The husband is not a child, his penis is.
A brat it is. 

In Germany it is a bratwurst, of the worst kind.

A lady not owning a penis and balls, has no idea how much power it retains.

Hormones know no peace and no compromise.

Were it not so, there would be no mating and no human race.


_The Typist- _


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

post removed by TJW - reply to wrong thread


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

LosingHim said:


> I get very frustrated with my husband for this same issue. I work all day, do 99.9% of the running with the kids, cook dinner, do all the cleaning and laundry, etc. My husbands life is mostly work and recreation. That’s a whole other story in and of itself. But then he also wants to know why I rarely initiate. It’s usually because I’m worn out and I’ve told him that. When I feel like I take care of everything, initiating just feels like another job I have to take care of and it loses it’s luster. And MAYBE just MAYBE I would like him to initiate so that I feel like everything I do is appreciated and my husband has desire for me instead of just feeling like the employee, the maid, the cook, the nanny.
> 
> But, my husband ALSO has the problem that affection = sex. I can’t kiss him without being groped. I can’t hug him without my butt being grabbed. And I get it, that’s fun too. But honestly, getting groped EVERY time you give a kiss goodnight sure starts to feel like the sex is more important than just the general affection and I start to feel like just a warm body instead of loved.


Accept the butt groping, it's a good thing. And no, it doesn't always mean sex, but it always means he finds you sexy. 

There's a big difference. 

Take the win!


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Just to start with the very basics, OP, have you been cleared by your doctor to resume sex? If so, is sex even good for you right now? I ask because, due to a very complicated and extremely dangerous childbirth, my son was nearly 3 months old before my doctor cleared me to resume marital relations. And, frankly, sex wasn't something that even felt good for nearly a year after I had him. 

And, is your husband the sort of guy who can be affectionate without it having to lead to sex immediately? My first husband was _not _that guy. A hug or a kiss translated into "sex" in his mind. Every time. And he was sulky and resentful if all he could get was a snuggle or a hug or a holding of hands - no matter the situation, time, or place. He once challenged our male MC directly as to why any man would even want a hug if it wasn't "going anywhere right then". He just felt that a hug was something that should be rewarded with a bj and holding hands was useless if there wasn't going to be an immediate payoff for doing it. Some people are just wired that way. If your guy is, then there's really not much to be done aside from maybe a good MC or Sex Therapist. 

But, if you've been cleared by your doctor and your husband is capable of understanding that affection and sex are connected but not the exact same thing, then you're probably not in such a dire state. Keep communicating with your husband about both of your needs. And, yes, sex is a need for most men just as non-sexual affection is a need for many women. Keep dating one another, remain affectionate, make an effort to put your marriage - the unique sexual and emotional relationship you two share - first. Yes, small children are exhausting. Yes, sex is usually on a bit of a low swing when children are tiny. But you both should be putting in the effort to keep one another emotionally and sexually connected. 

So, start by finding out what your husband means by saying you're not affectionate and then ask what he'd like _the two of you_ to do about it. Frame it as a "the two of you vs. the problem" way, rather than a "you vs. him" way. Figure out a way meet his needs in a manner that works for _both_ of you. And figure out a way for him to meet your needs in a way that works for _both_ of you.

I suggest the book "His Needs, Her Needs for Parents" by Willard Harley might be a good thing to read. It should give you both some better understanding and some good tools to help you two stay connected.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> All "affection" means to most men is sex. They don't think it counts if it's just actual affection. It's really sad. There's something missing when a man can't just enjoy some nice affection and snuggling on the couch, and some can, but bottom line, none of it matters to them because sex is more often than not their number one priority. I've learned from being on this forum and others that most men simply will be wanting to leave a marriage if sex isn't on the table to their preferences. It's that important to them. Some will lie and say that's what makes them feel intimate with a woman, trying to guilt her, but it's all about sex to them. They don't like you if you're not having sex with you.
> 
> Also, what's the matter with him that he needs YOU to initiate? Is he not confident or something? How thrilling.
> 
> ...


It is apparent that physical intamacy is "only sex" to you. It is a double edged sword when it is not just sex. I am one of those guys that emotion goes along with sex. Double edged as in afterward i feel like we can conquer the world and my wife is a safe place for me to be vulnerable and not be afraid of rejection. If physical intimacy is not there for a few days, not because of sickness or injury, but because she just dont feel like it, i feel rejected. I will feel resentful and start shutting down emotionally to try to block out the hurt feelings. Upside my wife and i have a bond that very few couples we know have and it makes us sad for them. 

Affection=sex. Eh NO! There is affection and there is phyaical intimacy. If one feels like they are starved for intimacy and apouse tries to be affectionate.. ..yeah the intimacy means more. I have quit relationships that the girl was into sex but it was just physical. It had no emotion attached to it, shallow. If it is "just sex" then a betrayed spouse should not be upset about it. 

Your generalization is like a man saying a woman just uses sex to manipulate men and they are just after money.

Wanting a girl to initiate i understand but not harping on it. It makes a guy feel wanted.for more than bills. I see how my wife gets into it and by how "wet" she gets during, as a measure of her desire for me. Also that she is ready when i initiate. I dont have to have her initiate to know she desires me.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

First, we're not talking about someone who doesn't have sex with you at all. We're talking about someone who doesn't always have sex with you because she doesn't feel like it or is tired and busy and because you always want sex more often than she does.

So you're going to get butthurt if your wife doesn't have sex with you every single time you're in the mood whether she is or not? That's mature.

Would you still love your wife if she wasn't having sex with you or would your love just evaporate?

And all the stuff about her initiating sex so you don't feel like you're just paying the bills, again it's just a lot of insecurity. Most women arent of the mindset that sex is what proves they love a man. In fact, a gold digger is exactly the type who would be having sex with you specifically so that you would pay the bills.

Sex is just not the main measure of love for most women, giving or receiving.

Also, women can get wet for any number of guys in any number of situations or even just thinking about sex.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Even knowing she's doing it against her will? How is that fulfilling to you?


It will not and she would not. Result of though is i would become emotionally unavailable to protect myself and our interaction would become more like brother sister instead of husband wife.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> First, we're not talking about someone who doesn't have sex with you at all. We're talking about someone who doesn't always have sex with you because she doesn't feel like it or is tired and busy and because you always want sex more often than she does.
> 
> So you're going to get butthurt if your wife doesn't have sex with you every single time you're in the mood whether she is or not? That's mature.
> 
> ...


Again to you it is just sex. We are different types of people.

Would you stop loving your husband if he stopped speaking to you. To a person whose LL is physical intimacy a spouse refusing that is them screaming I DONT LOVE YOU. But then again you would not understand that as to you sex is just sex. I refuse to use that term with my wife because it is NOT just sex.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Accept the butt groping, it's a good thing. And no, it doesn't always mean sex, but it always means he finds you sexy.
> 
> There's a big difference.
> 
> Take the win!



My husband also views this as a good thing and a win. If I say something he will respond that it should make me happy that he can’t keep his hands off of me. On the flip side, it makes ME feel like he can’t be affectionate towards me without it being sexual so then I at times feel like I’m only a sexual being. I’m ok with the butt grabs and groping. But I wish it would be more along the lines of 75% of the time, not 100% of the time.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Divinely Favored, I haven't actually talked about what sex has been to me personally. 

But I can promise you that women don't always view that the same way you do. Sometimes they just need a little consideration and don't need to have to worry about you getting your feelings hurt because they're not on the same sex schedule you are.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I do want to say that I do acknowledge that it is a two-sided problem. I think it's one of the most common ones and one of the most unlikely to be resolved. I think the more you push for obligation or compromise the further away you push the other person.
> 
> I guess the crooks of the problem is that women are much more dependent on emotions about sex and about conditions being right. I think it's hard to sustain attraction when you've been together for years on both sides. I think women need to have all these different facets working before they want to have sex with you. And I think men just want sex and don't understand why that's a big deal to women.


It is a dance because alot of men need the physical intinacy to feel like they are safe to be vulnerable to be open and emotional. It is a fine balance to maintain.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

So you're telling me that unless your penis is happy, you can't have any emotions?


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Divinely Favored said:


> It will not and she would not. *Result of though is i would become emotionally unavailable to protect myself* and our interaction would become more like brother sister instead of husband wife.


THIS is SO true...and SO damaging!!!!


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

LosingHim said:


> My husband also views this as a good thing and a win. If I say something he will respond that it should make me happy that he can’t keep his hands off of me. On the flip side, it makes ME feel like he can’t be affectionate towards me without it being sexual so then I at times feel like I’m only a sexual being. I’m ok with the butt grabs and groping. But I wish it would be more along the lines of 75% of the time, not 100% of the time.


The two things to include in your thoughts;

1. You'd be worried and have good reason to worry, if he didn't do this ever.
2. The quantity will likely fade over time, one day you will wonder why he doesn't do it more regularly. 

Guaranteed. 

But right now, good for you two!


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> So you're telling me that unless your penis is happy, you can't have any emotions?


Again yoy are coming from a "Sex is just sex" perspective. Should i rag on a woman because she can not feel sexual with a hubby that is a complete ass and unavailable.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm not coming from a "sex is just sex" perspective at all, I assure you. Seems to me like you're coming from a "Love is just sex" perspective. Your penis is not your heart or your brain. If you can't have emotions and/or feel vulnerable for a woman unless she's having sex with you, that's a disconnect in you. What are you going to be like when you have children if you can't have emotions for someone unless they're keeping your penis happy?????

*Quick poll to the ladies:*
How many of you would be unable to feel love and feel vulnerable toward a man until you'd had sex with him and only if he continued to have sex with you every time you wanted it?


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

OP. I'm addressing your original post not the other pages of arguments.

Many men here on TAM have a fear of being rejected or 'feel' rejected more than acceptance when sex isn't a go every time they want it. Perhaps your husband wants you to initiate so that he doesn't feel rejected and feel like you want sex. I, myself, while I do initiate sometimes really enjoy my husband being the initiator. It makes me feel more like he's the man and I'm the woman. But it also makes me feel desired. Everyone likes to feel desired. 

First you are very fresh out of child birth and I can say that at this stage I wasn't cleared for sexual activity. And when I was it was painful. We had a rough first year after birth. Fortunately my husband was understanding and I flat out told him it hurt the first time we tried to have sex. 

So how are you doing? During this conversation that he said he wanted you to initiate more did you have anything to say? Did you two have a conversation or did he just drop that tidbit and things were left hanging. How often does he initiate and how often do you turn him down? Personally at two months out of childbirth there is no right or wrong answer but that doesn't mean he understands. Have you two ever talked about rejection? or affection?


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> My husband also views this as a good thing and a win. If I say something he will respond that it should make me happy that he can’t keep his hands off of me. On the flip side, it makes ME feel like he can’t be affectionate towards me without it being sexual so then I at times feel like I’m only a sexual being. I’m ok with the butt grabs and groping. But I wish it would be more along the lines of 75% of the time, not 100% of the time.


What would happen if you told him... there's a time and a place for everything. You've got three hours to make me feel special, get me in the mood. I think you know the place. And if you don't succeed in getting me in the mood, let's talk about how you can.

This assumes sex isn't something that one is actively trying to avoid. If that's the case (trying to avoid sex), stop *****-footing around and tell him or her. Tell the truth and find a way to deal with it, or accept that you can't and face the consequences. Don't torture each other for decades. Plenty of threads on TAM showing how that turns out.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No woman I know buys into having duty sex, and not even in the 1950s. Sex shouldn't be work.


You are correct, it should not be work.

You (as in women as well as men) have needs for love and affection and touch and sexuality etc. as well. If sex is “work” and a distasteful chore with someone - then you should not be with him and definitely should not have kids with him in the first place. 

Never in my life will I ever understand people that marry and have children with someone they wouldn’t want to have sex with.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Casual Observer said:


> What would happen if you told him... there's a time and a place for everything. You've got three hours to make me feel special, get me in the mood. I think you know the place. And if you don't succeed in getting me in the mood, let's talk about how you can.
> 
> This assumes sex isn't something that one is actively trying to avoid. If that's the case (trying to avoid sex), stop ***-footing around and tell him or her. Tell the truth and find a way to deal with it, or accept that you can't and face the consequences. Don't torture each other for decades. Plenty of threads on TAM showing how that turns out.


.

My drive is affected by a few things. One of them my age and some hormone issues. I’m 42 so I’m getting to the screwy hormone age. There are a couple of other things that affect it at the moment. But I’m not completely trying to avoid it. It’s mostly that I don’t have the energy to initiate. But I have very good reactionary desire. It’s just that when I finally sit down, I just want to SIT. At the end of the day after everything I’ve done, if I have to initiate it just feels like another job, not something that’s coming naturally. I’m good with 2-3 times per week. My husband has an astronomically high drive and wants to every day or multiple times per day. But he also doesn’t seem to understand that I can’t just flip a switch and match his drive. But if he initiates, I don’t tell him no.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Old shirt, They don't usually. It often happens after they have kids and when issues arise because the mother is exhausted and becoming resentful that the father is just continuing to lead his life as usual while still expecting hot sex. of course sometimes it happens with or without kids just over a period of years because things become stale and I don't know that there's a thing in the world you can do about that.

But just because someone is attracted to you in the beginning doesn't mean they'll continue to be attracted to you and they may just fall out of love with you. It happens and I think it happens regularly.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Would you still love your wife if she wasn't having sex with you or would your love just evaporate?


It would absolutely evaporate. 

In order for me to be in a committed, sexually exclusive relationship/marriage with someone, it would have to be a romantic/sexual relationship and not just roommates. 

Yes I would/will divorce if someone doesn’t want to be intimate with me. 

Why would someone want to be with me if they didn’t want to be intimate? 

I understand if someone loses their desire for me or falls for someone else and I won’t disparage them for that or point fingers.

But for me to be in a committed relationship, I would need sexuality and I would end a relationship where that wasn’t present. 

We definitely see men come through here that whine and moan yet stay. But I imagine 3 billion other men will either seek it outside of the marriage or pack bags and leave.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

If a woman is ok with being a single mother so she doesn’t have to deal with a man’s needs and so she can focus all of her attentions onto the child, that is her choice.

But it’s not realistic to expect a healthy man to simply be a provider and assistant childcare giver with a woman who doesn’t want him physically/sexually. That’s just plain nuts.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Old shirt, They don't usually. It often happens after they have kids and when issues arise because the mother is exhausted and becoming resentful that the father is just continuing to lead his life as usual while still expecting hot sex. of course sometimes it happens with or without kids just over a period of years because things become stale and I don't know that there's a thing in the world you can do about that.
> 
> But just because someone is attracted to you in the beginning doesn't mean they'll continue to be attracted to you and they may just fall out of love with you. It happens and I think it happens regularly.


See my post # 74 and 75.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> If a woman is ok with being a single mother so she doesn’t have to deal with a man’s needs and so she can focus all of her attentions onto the child, that is her choice.
> 
> But it’s not realistic to expect a healthy man to simply be a provider and assistant childcare giver with a woman who doesn’t want him physically/sexually. That’s just plain nuts.


Most accurate summary. 👍👍👍


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> If a woman is ok with being a single mother so she doesn’t have to deal with a man’s needs and so she can focus all of her attentions onto the child, that is her choice.
> 
> But it’s not realistic to expect a healthy man to simply be a provider and assistant childcare giver with a woman who doesn’t want him physically/sexually. That’s just plain nuts.


Women have needs too. And being an assistant childcare giver has nothing to do with the women’s needs, it has to do with YOUR child’s needs. Don’t think your providing your wifes needs just by caring for your own child.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> It would absolutely evaporate.
> 
> In order for me to be in a committed, sexually exclusive relationship/marriage with someone, it would have to be a romantic/sexual relationship and not just roommates.
> 
> ...


Well that just really makes the point that I was trying to make. It's only about sex for a lot of men. It's not really about love of the person. And remember this thread is not talking about someone who isn't having sex at all. It's about an exhausted mother of two who is having sex on a regular basis but that's not good enough for her immature self-serving husband.

Once a woman realizes that the only thing that matters to her man about her is sex, it's all downhill from there.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> It would absolutely evaporate.
> 
> In order for me to be in a committed, sexually exclusive relationship/marriage with someone, it would have to be a romantic/sexual relationship and not just roommates.
> 
> ...


You were fine up until that bolded part.
*



Why would someone want to be with me if they didn’t want to be intimate?

Click to expand...

 *
It completely dismisses how someone else might feel. Lots of people do feel that way. The question is, why. Can you do something about the why? Because it's not all about you. It's a relationship and things change over time and you need to adapt. That does not mean you have to accept a sexless or "duty-bound" sex scenario. But you do have to understand that not everyone feels the way you would like them to, and it's their right to feel how they wish.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I’m going to throw a little different spin on this. If a child approaches you with open arms making an appeal for some love and affection, are you going to sneer at him/her and be resentful and bitter and tell him/her to keep their hands to themself and that their needs for affection are unnecessary and to quit bothering you?

If your grandma wants a hug and to sit and hold your hand on the couch and to talk about what you’ve been up to, are you going to yank your hand away and tell her to quit pawing you and to go clean the garage and fix the leaky fawcett that’s been dripping for 2 weeks. 

If your child comes home from kindergarten and wants to cuddle in the chair and tell you about his/her day, are you going to snap at them and tell them that you tired and busy and that you have no time or affection for them until they clean their room and help with the dishes and put the laundry away? 

Heck if the dog or the cat comes up to you and wants to rub up against you and get a pat on the head and stroked behind the ears, do you angrily push it away and tell it you’ve had a had a hectic day and to leave you alone. 

What would you do if you wanted a few moments of someone attention and a hug and some positive interaction and you were pushed away and sneered at told go mow the lawn??? 

Why is it that adult men, husbands and fathers are fair targets for your resentment and bitterness and hostility and that their needs for affection and attention and positive interaction are irrelevant and dismissible??

Why do you think that neglecting and dismissing their human needs for contact and attention indefinitely will not result in consequences?


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Well, now you're just talking about what is very important to women: simple affection. Attention. The kid may work her nerves sometimes too or come at her when she's too tired and be told "later." The kid isn't asking her to make love when she's not in the mood and it would be a chore to her. The kid, she can tell, Mommy's busy right now, and as long as she does it nicely, the kid won't be butthurt and will learn to entertain herself.

I know that a lot of mothers with young ones do often just feel like there's too many people tugging on them with no regard for their own welfare and needs.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Why is it that adult men, husbands and fathers are fair targets for your resentment and bitterness and hostility and that their needs for affection and attention and positive interaction are irrelevant and dismissible??
> 
> Why do you think that neglecting and dismissing their human needs for contact and attention indefinitely will not result in consequences?


In some cases it may be the only thing the wife feels she has absolute control over. They may be tired of feeling coerced, told what to do, have to put their own dreams on hold or at least lose the ability to even think about changing direction, if they're taking care of kids. Meantime the husband is looking at ways to get ahead in his job, considering opportunities that might uproot the family, and making little decisions all the time that might be causing a change in direction without the wife involved.

So yeah, it's all about consequences. Consequences of feeling left out, alone, trapped. What does she have left that she has absolute control over?


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Casual Observer said:


> You were fine up until that bolded part. It completely dismisses how someone else might feel. Lots of people do feel that way. The question is, why. Can you do something about the why? Because it's not all about you. It's a relationship and things change over time and you need to adapt. That does not mean you have to accept a sexless or "duty-bound" sex scenario. But you do have to understand that not everyone feels the way you would like them to, and it's their right do feel how they wish.


I’m not sure I’m getting what you are saying her, but I will stand by my statement.

If someone does not want an affectionate/intimate/whateveryouwanttocallit relationship with me, then why would they want to have a home and family with me ....... other than for me to pay bills, now the lawn, kill spider and change diapers and clean up puke?

Listen this goes for both men and women - without affection/intimacy, all any of us are is lawn mowers, laundry folders, diaper changers and puke cleaner uppers. 

Affection/intimacy is what raises us up above simple task performers and makes a marriage more than performers of domestic chores.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I’m just going to put this out there... a problem might be that the OP is the type of person who can’t say no, is a people pleaser, hates feeling like she isn’t making someone happy etc. therefore she will be much more anxious, and sensitive to his comments. 

Whereas if my partner told me that, I would laugh in his face and say he’s hilarious and pass a baby over to him and take a bath. Because for me, if you know your doing the best you can... that’s all you can do. And in that case she is “shielding” him from how tired and difficult her life really is right now.
Some people have NO IDEA how exhausted and tired and maxed out their partner is because their parent does everything gladly and with a smile and they make it look easy. So we can’t all paint the OP husband as being this terrible guy. Maybe he just has no clue how exhausted she really is.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I've known two guys who threatened to divorced their wives because it took them a year to get over having pain from their emergency C-sections. I wouldn't waste throwing an old boot at a man like that. No empathy for the woman and only cares about his knob. And before anyone says, Hey, she could still give him a BJ, please put two and two together and realize she just gave birth to a newborn, is weak and in pain, hurts to move around for a full year, and is exhausted and being drained already by the newborn. 

Me, I'd recommend shoving a bottle in the father's mouth and telling him to go suck it.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, now you're just talking about what is very important to women: simple affection. Attention. The kid may work her nerves sometimes too or come at her when she's too tired and be told "later." The kid isn't asking her to make love when she's not in the mood and it would be a chore to her. The kid, she can tell, Mommy's busy right now, and as long as she does it nicely, the kid won't be butthurt and will learn to entertain herself.
> 
> I know that a lot of mothers with young ones do often just feel like there's too many people tugging on them with no regard for their own welfare and needs.


Yes but a guy can change, become more attentive, take over many things around the house, truly turn over a new leaf. And it doesn't matter because she's bound by the memories of things past. She may complain about all the problems but isn't really that motivated to change her thinking when they're resolved. This is one of the major issues in therapy for my wife and I. I've done all the right things, I've changed dramatically, beginning about 15 years ago, but she's stuck in a very different place. The therapist has a hard time getting her to budge. She may in fact be where she wants to be... but why? 

This is projection, but it seems like my wife is not entirely unique. Nor are husbands likely immune to the exact same thing. We expect to see an epiphany in our partner when we've had one ourselves. I wish I knew how to create an epiphany in someone. But you can't. You can't change someone who doesn't want to be changed. 

The Mommy Track is a pretty strong self-reinforcing mechanism for many, many bad things. It doesn't have to be that way, be we enter parenthood woefully unprepared. Our parents just accepted it as the way things are, so there wasn't any warning to us. 

I really feel like all the important advice about marriage and parenting comes way too late to do any good.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> So you're telling me that unless your penis is happy, you can't have any emotions?


You're funny😆


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

This is an area where both men and women are going to need to compromise and make some concessions. 

Men aren’t going to have the spontaneous, carefree sex life they may have been accustomed to before Baby.

Their cuddly, sexy, hot babe before the baby is now an exhausted, stressed out, hormonally disrupted mother who isn’t going to drop to her knees and blow him whenever he feels like it. 

He needs to realize and adapt to the fact she has fundamentally changed..... possibly forever. 

But women also need to understand that the man has not changed on a fundamental level and that he still has needs for affection and sexuality and affirmation etc going forward even if there is a baby on the scene now. 

Yes, he is going to have to learn to live with less spontaneity, less frequency, less innate passion and likely more effort and time in seduction etc. 

But the woman also needs to realize that if she chronically dismisses his needs and treats him with resentment and bitterness and has no other interaction with him other than extracting resources and domestic assistance,,,,, she may very well be looking at single motherhood. 

Men’s lives matter. Father’s lives matter.

This is simple fact. If a woman wants her children growing up in a two-parent home with an engaged and contributing father, she is going to have to address his basic needs as well as the child’s.

She can’t simply dismiss and negate his needs for the next 18 years and expect him to simply mark time until the kids are grown and out of the house. 

He’ll be gone long before then.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> Yes but a guy can change, become more attentive, take over many things around the house, truly turn over a new leaf. And it doesn't matter because she's bound by the memories of things past. She may complain about all the problems but isn't really that motivated to change her thinking when they're resolved. This is one of the major issues in therapy for my wife and I. I've done all the right things, I've changed dramatically, beginning about 15 years ago, but she's stuck in a very different place. The therapist has a hard time getting her to budge. She may in fact be where she wants to be... but why?
> 
> This is projection, but it seems like my wife is not entirely unique. Nor are husbands likely immune to the exact same thing. We expect to see an epiphany in our partner when we've had one ourselves. I wish I knew how to create an epiphany in someone. But you can't. You can't change someone who doesn't want to be changed.
> 
> ...


You're right about that. Unless someone grew up taking care of kids, they have no idea what they're getting into. 

And yes, everyone has blind spots psychologically. It's mostly things that are totally normal to them because it was normal growing up for them and hard-wired as children. Very hard to break. And even being aware doesn't mean you can just fix it. And even being aware doesn't even mean you want to fix it that bad.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I’m going to add this since I’m kind of on a roll.

If you are a man that has to be banging it out ever day and you need constant female adoration and attention and can’t sacrifice any spontaneity or passion in your life - DONT MARRY AND DONT HAVE KIDS!!!! Having kids ain’t gonna work for you if you need high-intensity female attention and contact all the time.

And if you are a woman that can’t or won’t at least discuss and make sincere effort to try to meet a man’s needs for attention and affection if you have kids - then either get artificial insemination and be a single mother or DONT GET MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS.

Kids will place extra demands and compromise on both parents. If you aren’t up for meeting the demands and needs of partner and children - then don’t go there in the first place.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

"But women also need to understand that the man has not changed on a fundamental level and that he still has needs for affection and sexuality and affirmation etc going forward even if there is a baby on the scene now. "

Well, if he was doing his part, he would be changing on a fundamental level as well and prioritizing someone besides himself.

I do blame women for some of this too, to the extent that over my lifetime I've seen them know they have an immature guy with no real empathy but go ahead and marry or get pregnant with him anyway. I guess it's some fairytale in their head that they think he will magically transform. Women get caught up playing house.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> "But women also need to understand that the man has not changed on a fundamental level and that he still has needs for affection and sexuality and affirmation etc going forward even if there is a baby on the scene now. "
> 
> *Well, if he was doing his part, he would be changing on a fundamental level as well and prioritizing someone besides himself.*
> 
> I do blame women for some of this too, to the extent that over my lifetime I've seen them know they have an immature guy with no real empathy but go ahead and marry or get pregnant with him anyway. I guess it's some fairytale in their head that they think he will magically transform.


But there's no training, no warning ahead of time, to do anything different than your parents did. We want to pretend we live in an enlightened age, free from the shackled of the past, but the truth is, whatever we grew up with, that's our comfort zone. Or discomfort zone. 

However, I do think it disingenuous to suggest that the wife has to change more than the husband. I don't think most idealistic husbands go into marriage thinking about how they're going to have to increase their earnings to pay for boring necessary stuff instead of the fun stuff. All of a sudden you're working harder than ever and instead of getting more toys, more outings, you're seeing a bigger mortgage, bigger water/sewer/garbage bill, all sorts of "stuff" that does not in any way equal fun. You're working to keep even. To provide for your family is TOUGH but you get no credit for it because each of you are into a new zone where there's little empathy for anything you can't directly relate to.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> Yes but a guy can change, become more attentive, take over many things around the house, truly turn over a new leaf. And it doesn't matter because she's bound by the memories of things past. She may complain about all the problems but isn't really that motivated to change her thinking when they're resolved. This is one of the major issues in therapy for my wife and I. I've done all the right things, I've changed dramatically, beginning about 15 years ago, but she's stuck in a very different place. The therapist has a hard time getting her to budge. She may in fact be where she wants to be... but why?
> 
> This is projection, but it seems like my wife is not entirely unique. Nor are husbands likely immune to the exact same thing. We expect to see an epiphany in our partner when we've had one ourselves. I wish I knew how to create an epiphany in someone. But you can't. You can't change someone who doesn't want to be changed.
> 
> ...


Don't give up all hope of a gradual change after the counseling. It does take a while if some of it is going to get digested and sink in and trial and error of maybe seeing if you can have different reactions now with the new lucidity of the issue. Give it some time.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> "But women also need to understand that the man has not changed on a fundamental level and that he still has needs for affection and sexuality and affirmation etc going forward even if there is a baby on the scene now. "
> 
> Well, if he was doing his part, he would be changing on a fundamental level as well and prioritizing someone besides himself.
> 
> I do blame women for some of this too, to the extent that over my lifetime I've seen them know they have an immature guy with no real empathy but go ahead and marry or get pregnant with him anyway. I guess it's some fairytale in their head that they think he will magically transform.


But he isn’t changing physiologically or hormonally or changing his actual being like a mother is. 

I have a 16 year old and an 18 year old still in the house.

Yes, I became more responsible. I learned to thaw breast milk, change diapers, mount car seats etc and schedule pediatrician appointments. 

But I am still the person that I was 18 years and 9 months ago and other than age still have the same interests and wants and needs that I did before the first child.

But my wife is a completely different person. She resembles her pictures physically from before kids; but she is an entirely different person and everything about her changed the day she got pregnant. 

Her life has been divided into two chapters - before kids; and after kids. 

Not every woman is as drastic but I’m willing to bet the before vs after gap in most women is pretty significant.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

@LadyB3 - I hope you don't feel threatened or attacked in any way. Your post hit on something that's fairly universal and touches a lot of us deeply. You're at a place many of us can relate to and understand, and that you came here to ask for help, right now, is a HUGE thing in favor of your marriage. Most of us don't get to actually doing something about these feelings, we just let them sit and fester and things get worse and tougher to deal with.

If you haven't had marital counseling previously, I'd suggest considering it now. Not because you're marriage is in trouble, but because you want to keep it out of trouble. If you can truly say this is the man I want to spend the rest of my life with, and he can say you're the woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with, then right now is the best time to begin work on making sure that happens. 

Most of the scary crap you read about here is the result of YEARS of marital neglect. We weren't born this way.  

You go girl!


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> But he isn’t changing physiologically or hormonally or changing his actual being like a mother is.
> 
> I have a 16 year old and an 18 year old still in the house.
> 
> ...


Sure it is. It's called maturing. You act like men aren't supposed to do it. There are some very invested fathers out there who I can assure you aren't the same person they were when they fertilized the egg. Priorities are supposed to change. I think it's important that people don't lose their whole self in the process, but to a lot of people that wouldn't be referring just to sex but to keeping some friends and hobbies, but you can't do that if you're doing most or all of the parenting.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I’m going to add this since I’m kind of on a roll.
> 
> If you are a man that has to be banging it out ever day and you need constant female adoration and attention and can’t sacrifice any spontaneity or passion in your life - DONT MARRY AND DONT HAVE KIDS!!!! Having kids ain’t gonna work for you if you need high-intensity female attention and contact all the time.
> 
> ...


Let me condense this down.

If you can’t or won’t maintain and take care of both a spouse and a child, then pick one or the other - but don’t have both. 

That goes for BOTH men and women.

If you can’t work with a partner to meet each other’s needs and raise a child/children at the same time - THEN DON’T. 

There’s no law that says you have to marry.

And no law that says you have to procreate. 

If you can’t compromise and work with someone to raise a family together and keep each other reasonably happy, then get yourself snipped and stay single.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

... and if you’re not up to that task, that is ok. A lot people probably shouldn’t have kids. Maybe even most. 

A lot of people shouldn’t marry. 

Only those up to the task should and it is a very demanding and difficult task There is no shame in opting out and I think as time goes on more and more people will consciously choose not to go that route and personally, I think that is a good thing. Personal freedom also means being able to choose to not marry/procreate if it is not right for you.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LadyB3 said:


> Hi everyone I am new here!
> My husband and I just had a discussion about me not being affectionate enough. He says that I only kiss him good morning and Goodnight and that I don’t start or initiate making love to him.
> i do !!! I feel like because I don’t do it often like 5 times a week (intense kissing leading to having sex) , he feels like I am not affectionate enough. Mind you we have 2 kids. A 5 year old and a 2 month old. What else should I do so he doesn’t feel this way???


OK So I breezed through all this kind of quick so I might have missed it if someone already said this but you guys have a 5 year old and a 2 month old. This is a painfully transitional time that is very difficult. You have to team up in all aspects of things. Your hubby should recognize how exhausting it is taking care of the needs of two completely dependent humans. If he doesn't understand it's probably because he hasn't experienced it which is a separate problem unto itself. You need to understand for better or worse most men do NEED a partner who they have reason to believe desire them sexually. Men by and large do equate sex and emotional intimacy, this has been a known fact for decades. 
All that being said, you have a 2 month old and a 5 year old. The party has been paused. Sex will need to be planned more often than not for a bit. You need to have a long talk about needs and expectations. If you need some time off from kid duty he should be stepping up. I say this because it sounds like you need time off, which tells me he is not stepping up and if thats the case he is missing out. 
What he is probably looking for in a perfect scenario is not just the physical affection but also an affectionate attitude towards him. Honestly from my experience this is unreasonable in your current situation on a regular basis but you should be mindful of what he is needing as he should be with what you are needing. COMMUNICATE to the point of over communicating. Tell him when you're spent and ask for help. Listen to him when things have been cold for too long and put effort in to helping the situation. Finding a good babysitter for date nights is as valuable as a 10 million dollar investment account for a marriage with young kids. 
This is not that complicated if you remember marriage with kids is a team bloodsport. It has been said on this thread, if you let the fire die you may not re-light it. So keep it burning somehow. But that goes for both of you. 
Being on this site for a while I have seen this situation often, and from what I have seen is this can end badly if ignored or if you listen to people telling you your husband is immature. His feelings are real just as your feelings are real. Both deserve full consideration. You likely won't be able to meet your husbands ideal scenario for sexual intimacy, but what he is really looking for is that you try. And your effort should be met with his effort to give you space to get in the mood. 

Men with wives who never initiate sex or act unaffectionately towards them see a woman who isn't really into them and probably don't really love them. 

Women with husbands who don't help out around the house or with the kids see a man who views them only as sexual objects. 

Neither view is accurate except in the mind, and a mind left to develop its own reality will rip a marriage to shreds.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well that just really makes the point that I was trying to make. It's only about sex for a lot of men. It's not really about love of the person. And remember this thread is not talking about someone who isn't having sex at all. It's about an exhausted mother of two who is having sex on a regular basis but that's not good enough for her immature self-serving husband.
> 
> Once a woman realizes that the only thing that matters to her man about her is sex, it's all downhill from there.


We realize that but you had been trashing men in general and not speaking in terms of her man specifically. Specifically her husband is an ass for being the way he is. He should be happy with 2x week in the situation they are in, not pushing for daily.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> In some cases it may be the only thing the wife feels she has absolute control over. They may be tired of feeling coerced, told what to do, have to put their own dreams on hold or at least lose the ability to even think about changing direction, if they're taking care of kids. Meantime the husband is looking at ways to get ahead in his job, considering opportunities that might uproot the family, and making little decisions all the time that might be causing a change in direction without the wife involved.
> 
> So yeah, it's all about consequences. Consequences of feeling left out, alone, trapped. What does she have left that she has absolute control over?


So as you said it is her means to control her husband....


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> So as you said it is her means to control her husband....


No. There is a difference between having control over something and controlling somebody. Denying sex because you can... the motivation is because you can. Not that you want to make life miserable for both of you. If it was about controlling your husband, sex would be used more transactionally. As logical as that might seem, you don’t see much of it on TAM.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> ... and if you’re not up to that task, that is ok. A lot people probably shouldn’t have kids. Maybe even most.
> 
> A lot of people shouldn’t marry.
> 
> Only those up to the task should and it is a very demanding and difficult task There is no shame in opting out and I think as time goes on more and more people will consciously choose not to go that route and personally, I think that is a good thing. Personal freedom also means being able to choose to not marry/procreate if it is not right for you.


The women don't realize when they have kids that they may end up doing most of the work. It is at this point that they begin to regard their husbands as just another child to take care of. I've seen that over and over throughout my lifetime with just acquaintances. 

I agree a lot of people should opt to either not have children or not get married, but most young people have a natural drive to do just that. Unfortunately what we often get is a pile of for all practical purposes fatherless children.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Any woman that doesn't realize they must likely will be doing most of the work isn't a realist.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Im


DownByTheRiver said:


> The women don't realize when they have kids that they may end up doing most of the work. It is at this point that they begin to regard their husbands as just another child to take care of. I've seen that over and over throughout my lifetime with just acquaintances.
> 
> I agree a lot of people should opt to either not have children or not get married, but most young people have a natural drive to do just that. Unfortunately what we often get is a pile of for all practical purposes fatherless children.


I was definitely one of those who was young and clueless. It never occurred to me that 100% would be on me — especially since we both had careers. The difference, looking back, was that I wanted a child much more than he did. In fact, his response during those early years when I was so overwhelmed was “You’re the one who wanted this”. In other words, that’s your problem, not mine, so you deal with it. If I could go back in time and tell that girl not to give him a chance I would. Yes, there were indications even then that he was selfish and non-compromising but I was sure he would outgrow it. He didn’t.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

During child years some times the, in my case, my wife would get stressed wrom all we were doing and complaid she was doing everything and gripe about being too tired or such and such for alone time. 

Excuse me! You do all the work? With baby also 5yr old. I was the one to prepare formula and helped feed, had no issue changing and desposing of diaper pail. I took half the night feedings of baby, I did all the yard maintenance, vehicle maintenance and home maintenance. I usually loaded the dishwasher. I vaccumed the house, carried out trash, cooked some of the meals(she was in commissioned sales and was home before me), both bathed youngest while i was in shower, i cleaned toilets and completed some of the laundry weekly.

She had personality that was stressed more easily. But she was damn sure not doing all the work herself. She was perhaps a little OCD and wanted to do thing in the order or how she wanted it done. So there were times when there was nothing in washer so i would put on load of towels and she would get upset as she was planning on doing the kids clothes. She was not doing laundry at the time so what the hell is wrong with me having the towels done before she gets ready for kids clothes.

But to ignore a spouses needs because you fail to set aside time with them, that is wrong. It just hits me wrong when a wife complains she is doing everything. I ask that they really look at the things the husband does and make sure they are not inadvertantly dismissing his contributions. Because that damn sure was not the truth in my household even though she may have been stressed at the time and felt like it. And the fact she did not even realize it all that i was doing or just dismissed it.

Matter fact the day we were discussing my issues with her and lack of time(she said we just had sex the other day...no it was 13 days ago) she was so in her head about what she had to do. Then she was *****ing about having to do everything and i refuted that with all the house and yard work i do and she made a snide remark "What, do you expect me to give you a cookie?"

In a way it was good as that was the point that my view of her changed. My co-dependent self and putting her on a pedestal stopped. I dropped 50#, hit the weights and was more aloof emotionally. She thought i was gone after that....no.... we changed the pecking order and i became the leader in the home. It hurt but was for the best. Her feeling like she did everything was partly based on her feeling like she had to make the important decisions as i was good with what ever she wanted to do.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Openminded said:


> Im
> 
> 
> I was definitely one of those who was young and clueless. It never occurred to me that 100% would be on me — especially since we both had careers. The difference, looking back, was that I wanted a child much more than he did. In fact, his response during those early years when I was so overwhelmed was “You’re the one who wanted this”. In other words, that’s your problem, not mine, so you deal with it. If I could go back in time and tell that girl not to give him a chance I would. Yes, there were indications even then that he was selfish and non-compromising but I was sure he would outgrow it. He didn’t.


Yes, and that's common enough. When that happens, it's best to realize they're not the man to have kids with. Not all men are ambiguous about kids, but more men than women are. But do they ever want to stop having sex to be sure it doesn't happen? Noooooo.

My friend was the same way. She was ready to have a kid and he just said it was all up to her and it was for years and years. I don't see how someone can have their own flesh and blood and just not have an urge to take care of them. I never wanted kids, but if I'd had them, I'd have taken care of them for all I was worth. One of hers is grown but still in the house and she still has a teen, a full-time job, and still doing it all except when the kids help. 

See, that's the thing, like you, most women have a hard time believing that a man really is that heartless and inconsiderate because it's inconceivable to them, and keep thinking they'll change. Don't hold your breath.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The women don't realize when they have kids that they may end up doing most of the work.* It is at this point that they begin to regard their husbands as just another child to take care of.* I've seen that over and over throughout my lifetime with just acquaintances.
> 
> I agree a lot of people should opt to either not have children or not get married, but most young people have a natural drive to do just that. Unfortunately what we often get is a pile of for all practical purposes fatherless children.


You may have just nailed the problem. The husband may not be another child to take care of; he may be "useful" and sharing the load pretty fairly. But it's possible the wife goes into a "mom" mode where all she sees are "mom" things. The very things her husband did or didn't do before kids... she may have had no issue with them then. But once kids are in the mix, the wife's perspective changes radically.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Yes, and that's common enough. When that happens, it's best to realize they're not the man to have kids with. Not all men are ambiguous about kids, but more men than women are. But do they ever want to stop having sex to be sure it doesn't happen? Noooooo.
> 
> My friend was the same way. She was ready to have a kid and he just said it was all up to her and it was for years and years. I don't see how someone can have their own flesh and blood and just not have an urge to take care of them. I never wanted kids, but if I'd had them, I'd have taken care of them for all I was worth. One of hers is grown but still in the house and she still has a teen, a full-time job, and still doing it all except when the kids help.
> 
> See, that's the thing, like you, most women have a hard time believing that a man really is that heartless and inconsiderate because it's inconceivable to them, and keep thinking they'll change. Don't hold your breath.


I foolishly hoped for decades that my husband would grow up but he never did. He remained that pouty, sulky, selfish little boy his entire life. Marriage really shouldn’t be the constant struggle that mine was. My only regret about finally divorcing him is that I didn’t do it long before I did.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> You may have just nailed the problem. The husband may not be another child to take care of; he may be "useful" and sharing the load pretty fairly. But it's possible the wife goes into a "mom" mode where all she sees are "mom" things. The very things her husband did or didn't do before kids... she may have had no issue with them then. But once kids are in the mix, the wife's perspective changes radically.


Because he should be changing into a father just like she changed into a mother.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Openminded said:


> I foolishly hoped for decades that my husband would grow up but he never did. He remained that pouty, sulky, selfish little boy his entire life. Marriage really shouldn’t be the constant struggle that mine was. My only regret about finally divorcing him is that I didn’t do it long before I did.


At least by divorcing him you showed your kids that that is not the way to be or anything to put up with!


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Because he should be changing into a father just like she changed into a mother.


And the mom should be looking at her husband's dad to get an idea of how that will likely work out. I think it likely that, whether deliberately or not, we learn our roles from our same-gender parent. My wife has certainly taken on the traits of her mom, including the things she despised in her mom. It's very strange, apparently a difficult-to-escape thing.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I agree, but I also know it goes either two ways: Either you continue the cycle or you rebel against it because of how it made your childhood suck. The latter is the healthier reaction.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Divinely Favored said:


> But there are 2 sides....not just hers. Problem is some of us do not feel affectionate or show attention to someone we feel like is a sister. Without physical intimacy a couple times a week i would withdrawl emotionally and start feeling like wife was just a female family member. You perspective sets aside the mans needs. With moderate physical intimacy i am much more connected and engaged with wife in all other aspects of relationship.


I completely agree, and feel the same way. If she's holding out on me, she's just another friend. I don't bend over backwards and put myself last to satisfy my friends.

The problem is that some ladies resent that no sex is a deal breaker. Talking to such ladies does nothing; it's like talking to a stone.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

But there's nothing about the situation and the original post that suggests he is bending over to help her in any way. She has two children under five and is having sex with him regularly but unless she does it every single time he wants to he gets butthurt. And as far as starting to think someone's a sister and deciding not to do your part unless she puts out every time you feel like it on your schedule, better make sure that's okay with her before you have kids. Because her time is no longer her own or your own.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No woman I know buys into having duty sex, and not even in the 1950s. Sex shouldn't be work.


It does not have to be duty sex. People are so binary: either both partners are horny, or it's crap obligatory relations.

What about a scenario where one partner decides that even though he or she is not horny, the desire to honor his or her partner IS there and a loving sacrifice will be made?


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> But there's nothing about the situation and the original post that suggests he is bending over to help her in any way. She has two children under five and is having sex with him regularly but unless she does it every single time he wants to he gets butthurt. And as far as starting to think someone's a sister and deciding not to do your part unless she puts out every time you feel like it on your schedule, better make sure that's okay with her before you have kids. Because her time is no longer her own or your own.


No where did I say I would not do my part. I am a very involved, nurturing parent. I am the one my kids went to for their needs generally. And yeah I still had time and energy for sex.

But I am not going to prioritize her needs any more than she does mine. I'd take care of the kids and leave her behind for a bit - let her see how it feels, so to speak.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm not coming from a "sex is just sex" perspective at all, I assure you. Seems to me like you're coming from a "Love is just sex" perspective. Your penis is not your heart or your brain. If you can't have emotions and/or feel vulnerable for a woman unless she's having sex with you, that's a disconnect in you. What are you going to be like when you have children if you can't have emotions for someone unless they're keeping your penis happy?????
> 
> *Quick poll to the ladies:*
> How many of you would be unable to feel love and feel vulnerable toward a man until you'd had sex with him and only if he continued to have sex with you every time you wanted it?


A parent/child relationship is nothing like a romantic relationship, so your question is a non-sequitor.

Then, nobody said "any time you want it". 2-3 times per week isn't that much - anyone can pull it off if you prioritize each other.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well that just really makes the point that I was trying to make. It's only about sex for a lot of men. It's not really about love of the person. And remember this thread is not talking about someone who isn't having sex at all. It's about an exhausted mother of two who is having sex on a regular basis but that's not good enough for her immature self-serving husband.
> 
> Once a woman realizes that the only thing that matters to her man about her is sex, it's all downhill from there.


It's NOT ONLY about sex.

Think of sex as necessary, but not sufficient.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I've known two guys who threatened to divorced their wives because it took them a year to get over having pain from their emergency C-sections. I wouldn't waste throwing an old boot at a man like that. No empathy for the woman and only cares about his knob. And before anyone says, Hey, she could still give him a BJ, please put two and two together and realize she just gave birth to a newborn, is weak and in pain, hurts to move around for a full year, and is exhausted and being drained already by the newborn.
> 
> Me, I'd recommend shoving a bottle in the father's mouth and telling him to go suck it.


Hmmm. A full year?

Lemme tell youna little story. A little under a year ago I had st. 3 colon cancer surgery. Rested for four weeks, went back to a full schedule, cleaned house, the full 9, even during chemo. I did it lovingly because I have a family and the ethic to do my utmost, even while not feeling well.

So its unreasonable to expect my partner to do the same?


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> It does not have to be duty sex. People are so binary: either both partners are horny, or it's crap obligatory relations.
> 
> What about a scenario where one partner decides that even though he or she is not horny, the desire to honor his or her partner IS there and a loving sacrifice will be made?


What if the other partner decides that he wouldn't want to ask someone to be their sex servant because it's so hugely disrespectful?


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> No where did I say I would not do my part. I am a very involved, nurturing parent. I am the one my kids went to for their needs generally. And yeah I still had time and energy for sex.
> 
> But I am not going to prioritize her needs any more than she does mine. I'd take care of the kids and leave her behind for a bit - let her see how it feels, so to speak.


Should be relieved you weren't demanding attention and were instead helping the kids.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> A parent/child relationship is nothing like a romantic relationship, so your question is a non-sequitor.
> 
> Then, nobody said "any time you want it". 2-3 times per week isn't that much - anyone can pull it off if you prioritize each other.


Which you can't do if you have children. You just don't get it. A baby and toddler's require constant attention and grown men shouldn't.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> Hmmm. A full year?
> 
> Lemme tell youna little story. A little under a year ago I had st. 3 colon cancer surgery. Rested for four weeks, went back to a full schedule, cleaned house, the full 9, even during chemo. I did it lovingly because I have a family and the ethic to do my utmost, even while not feeling well.
> 
> So its unreasonable to expect my partner to do the same?


While she's looking after two children under five? Yes. No one was demanding sex of you during that time, were they? On their schedule.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> What if the other partner decides that he wouldn't want to ask someone to be their sex servant because it's so hugely disrespectful?


Nobody said sex servant. I - at least - wasn't demanding it all the time. But if I am carrying an equal (or greater) load then my needs should matter just as much.

The problem comes when one partner deems the needs of the other less important.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> Nobody said sex servant. I - at least - wasn't demanding it all the time. But if I am carrying an equal (or greater) load then my needs should matter just as much.
> 
> The problem comes when one partner deems the needs of the other less important.


The problem comes when you think getting sex is an entitlement. I've already talked about in this thread that sex should not be a chore and most people agree. But if you're busy and exhausted and not at all in the mood for sex then yes it is a chore someone is demanding it of you. It's for when two people feel like having it that it's worth anything as far as bonding. because trust me if someone's having it just because you want it but they don't really want to, resentment is building.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> While she's looking after two children under five? Yes. No one was demanding sex of you during that time, were they? On their schedule.


You're missing my point. I am a single guy with my kid 100%. Yes she's a teen but is ASD and has needs. I by myself kept a demanding job going, all my treatments, ran the house, two pets, and so on. It's my kid so of course no sex.

But, sex isn't the point. The point is I met my kid where she was at, carved out time to do that which made her feel loved - making her favorite meals, playing video games, whatever. I did it to make her feel loved and secure.

So when people say how they're too tired, not enough time, etc I just don't get it. Because I made it happen through my difficult circumstances.

So, unless your spouse is an ass, the problem isn't enough time. The problem is you not caring enough to dig deep and make it happen. "No time" and "immature" are ways to avoid working on the issue by denying his needs matter just as much. It's an attempt to shame him.

When my other child was battling leukemia I did far more than her and still got rejected.

I'm not unique by any means in having these issues.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The problem comes when you think getting sex is an entitlement. I've already talked about in this thread that sex should not be a chore and most people agree. But if you're busy and exhausted and not at all in the mood for sex then yes it is a chore someone is demanding it of you. It's for when two people feel like having it that it's worth anything as far as bonding. because trust me if someone's having it just because you want it but they don't really want to, resentment is building.


Agreed. But you're not going to be constantly too busy and exhausted for it. I wouldn't expect my partner to just do it. But I would expect her to find ways to alleviate the conditions to make it more likely. Restructure, reprioritize.

Is the OP doing that? We don't know. But it's good advice that I'm giving. You'd be surprised how much time you spend on social media, running to Starbucks, talking with your friends, volunteering at school or church. Is all of that more important?


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> You're missing my point. I am a single guy with my kid 100%. Yes she's a teen but is ASD and has needs. I by myself kept a demanding job going, all my treatments, ran the house, two pets, and so on. It's my kid so of course no sex.
> 
> But, sex isn't the point. The point is I met my kid where she was at, carved out time to do that which made her feel loved - making her favorite meals, playing video games, whatever. I did it to make her feel loved and secure.
> 
> ...


FFS, did it ever occur to you that a soul crushing thing such as your child having leukemia would make you feel the opposite of sexual? That you might be so depressed that nothing was really working and you were just struggling to get from one day to the next without curling up and dying yourself?


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> Agreed. But you're not going to be constantly too busy and exhausted for it. I wouldn't expect my partner to just do it. But I would expect her to find ways to alleviate the conditions to make it more likely. Restructure, reprioritize.
> 
> Is the OP doing that? We don't know. But it's good advice that I'm giving. You'd be surprised how much time you spend on social media, running to Starbucks, talking with your friends, volunteering at school or church. Is all of that more important?


None of which has anything to do with whether or not you're feeling sexual at any given time. Women don't just have a light switch you can throw on and off. And it just kills me how often you compare sex to household chores and errands.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The problem comes when you think getting sex is an entitlement. I've already talked about in this thread that sex should not be a chore and most people agree. But if you're busy and exhausted and not at all in the mood for sex then yes it is a chore someone is demanding it of you. It's for when two people feel like having it that it's worth anything as far as bonding. because trust me if someone's having it just because you want it but they don't really want to, resentment is building.


There's got to be some middle ground here. In a relationship, is it really so much about ourself first, partner second? Nobody feels something special doing something for their partner that they would really like, even if it's not your own favorite thing? But it becomes something you look forward to because it's for him or her? 

To me, there's a sense of entitlement going on when we're so focused upon what someone else is or is not doing for us, instead of what we could be doing for them. Selfishness. Obviously, doing something because it's being demanded is not something that will make you feel that way. But how many things get to that point that never should have?

There's a really uneasy feeling that any expectation of intimacy in a married relationship border on rape if it's not on the same plane for husband and wife. If he's getting "more" out of it than her, then it's an imposition? Or vice versa? 

Complete physical intimacy is one of those few things that are to be shared only between husband and wife. Sex outside the marital bed is considered, by most, to be the most-severe violation of boundaries. When we make that pledge to one another that we will forsake all others, there is, I believe, some responsibility that comes with it. Caring for one another is at the top of that list, and maintaining those things that are allowed only within marriage would seem to be a rather obvious thing. 

But we talk about this stuff years too late, sometimes decades. It's a celebration of sorts when someone comes here just a few years into marriage and the old timers are seeing the warning signs and thinking... it's not too late for this couple! If only we'd known then what we know now, but they... they CAN know. Before momentum and resentment set in. Before change involves immovable objects and monstrous pain.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

And again a reminder that we are talking about women who do sometimes want to have sex but don't want to be pressured into it when they don't. 

For years on these forums I've heard all this crosstalk trying to justify demanding sex from women who aren't in the mood by men saying that's the only way they can feel an emotion, but what's it worth if the woman isn't feeling any emotion except she wishes you'd get off her and leave her alone until and unless she's in the mood? That's not really going to inspire closeness, is it? 

And I would just remind everyone that there's a handy solution to relieve yourself when you need to get off and there's not someone around ready to do that with you, so it's not like this is an impossibly unresolvable problem. 

People of all ages have learned to sustain themselves without self-destructing even when they don't have a partner. 

And I'm not directing all this just at you, Casual, but if a man can't take the occasional sex rejection without deciding to think about the woman as his sister, then he's not much of a man. That's the very definition of objectification of women as only sex objects.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> And again a reminder that *we are talking about women who do sometimes want to have sex* but don't want to be pressured into it when they don't.
> 
> For years on these forums I've heard all this crosstalk trying to justify demanding sex from women who aren't in the mood by men saying that's the only way they can feel an emotion, but what's it worth if the woman isn't feeling any emotion except she wishes you'd get off her and leave her alone until and unless she's in the mood? That's not really going to inspire closeness, is it?
> 
> ...


You're making an assumption "rejection" is a part-time gig. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's ingrained so deeply that, instead of not desiring intimacy after a long time apart, it's dreaded. You're talking generalities which are true, in general. But some live in specifics that are very different from what you imagine.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Which you can't do if you have children. You just don't get it. A baby and toddler's require constant attention and grown men shouldn't.


Allow me to clarify: there is enough time to do that 2-3 times per week and deal with the children, if you cut back on outside stuff. I've done it - I did just as much as my ex around the house, plus had a more challenging job, plus ran the errands because she couldn't be bothered.

It's really quite simple. If I'm doing more than her, and I have time and energy for a decent sex life, then so does she. If I had enough free time, and I had less free time than she did, then she had enough free time as well.

She just chose to prioritize in other ways. And that is her right. My point is she claimed I was asking the impossible; what she really meant is that she didn't have the time or energy after chilling with her friends, shopping, taking naps, and so on. And then when I called her out and said it's not the lack of time, it's how you use it, she got pissed.

She felt that she was entitled to faithful husband and adopted an attitude that even if largely celibate I owed her to stuff it in my pants and not bother her with my needs. I had the nerve to assert my wants and needs and equally important.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> And again a reminder that we are talking about women who do sometimes want to have sex but don't want to be pressured into it when they don't.
> 
> For years on these forums I've heard all this crosstalk trying to justify demanding sex from women who aren't in the mood by men saying that's the only way they can feel an emotion, but what's it worth if the woman isn't feeling any emotion except she wishes you'd get off her and leave her alone until and unless she's in the mood? That's not really going to inspire closeness, is it?
> 
> ...


It's easier to not have a sex life when you don't have a partner. If I don't have a partner, I'm free to go find one who likes me enough to where my needs matter. If I have a partner, then I'm stuck unless I cheat (we agree that's a bad option) or I leave. 

There's also the problem of my partner still having expectations of me every day and be demanding even if she rejects my advances. You'd think there'd be some empathy - a sense of "I haven't been very good to him lately, maybe I ought to lay off a bit". But that isn't how it works. I've only encountered one lady here on TAM (in 10 years) that felt if she didn't want to do something for her husband, she shouldn't expect more from him. 

Lastly, what's your definition of occasional rejection? If you're only going 1 - 2 times a month, and your husband wants significantly more, that's pretty consistent rejection - not occasional.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> None of which has anything to do with whether or not you're feeling sexual at any given time. Women don't just have a light switch you can throw on and off. And it just kills me how often you compare sex to household chores and errands.


Actually, it is pertinent here. How many ladies cite fatigue as a reason to avoid sex? Seems to reason that if you cut back on other stuff and aren't so fatigued the odds of connecting go up.

The larger point though, is if you are denying sex what are you doing to help resolve the issue? If I complain to my partner that the sex life has been bad over a period of time, and she doesn't even try to fix it, then that's the main problem right there.

My take is (and I have a feeling you won't like it):

It IS NOT my responsibility to put my partner in the mood to have sex. It would be ridiculous to assert otherwise. I have no control over the matter. No matter how positive the situation may be, the lady has to decide to have sex. Since I cannot control whether she does that, you can't hold me responsible for it not happening.

It IS my responsibility to create a positive, supportive environment that encourages the closeness and relaxation which lead to the desired result. I have no problem with that.

It IS her responsibility to work with me in good faith to come to an acceptable compromise. That means she also has to work towards creating an environment where sex can happen. If she insists that she must volunteer at school, at church, etc. and structures her schedule so that there's no way she'll have time and energy for sex, that is 100% on her.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> FFS, did it ever occur to you that a soul crushing thing such as your child having leukemia would make you feel the opposite of sexual? That you might be so depressed that nothing was really working and you were just struggling to get from one day to the next without curling up and dying yourself?


Again, you're missing my point. FTR, the sex problem started well before this; it pretty much started when we were expecting our second child. She had the family she wanted and sex became extraneous.

My point - again - is that even with all that on my plate, I still had time to do it if the opportunity presented itself. So I don't really believe people just leading ordinary lives without that kind of stress when they say they don't have time to do it. They do, but don't want to be bothered. And - again - they use the "I cannot - there's not enough time" to avoid any discussion.

If there really isn't a way to it, then I'm wrong for asking. But if you just can't be bothered, then your refusal (if it's more than just occasional) is going to have consequences. Saying "there's no time" is a way to not have sex without having to discuss it or face other consequences.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DTO said:


> Actually, it is pertinent here. How many ladies cite fatigue as a reason to avoid sex? Seems to reason that if you cut back on other stuff and aren't so fatigued the odds of connecting go up.
> 
> The larger point though, is if you are denying sex what are you doing to help resolve the issue? If I complain to my partner that the sex life has been bad over a period of time, and she doesn't even try to fix it, then that's the main problem right there.
> 
> ...


There's a lot of things you say that make me very uncomfortable, mostly along the lines of either you make room for me and have sex when I have my "needs" or you're history. It takes a very particular type of relationship to pull that off without it seeming forced, transactional or at the very least, coerced. I also have a difficult time with the idea that it's not the HD person's responsibility to put the LD partner in the mood. Seems a bit extreme to me. I get that it shouldn't constantly be the HD partner's job to try and control the LD partner's mood, because you really can't. You can try and avoid triggers and make the path as smooth as possible, but if someone's preference is to not be in the mood, anything you try isn't going to change it. At best you'll get guilty sex, which morphs into resentment. 

BUT- I do get the issue of LD partner claiming to be worn out all the time, and so not in the mood for intimacy, all the while doing a ton of optional things with their spare time, filling every nook & cranny of the day and then having nothing left at the end. That is a choice, a choice that is placing all manner of things in a more important position than intimacy. It's OK to make that choice, but you can't expect it to not affect your relationship. You don't necessarily have to schedule sex, but you should necessarily create some space for it; it shouldn't be crowded out.


----------



## Davidmidwest (Nov 22, 2016)

LadyB3 said:


> Hi everyone I am new here!
> My husband and I just had a discussion about me not being affectionate enough. He says that I only kiss him good morning and Goodnight and that I don’t start or initiate making love to him.
> i do !!! I feel like because I don’t do it often like 5 times a week (intense kissing leading to having sex) , he feels like I am not affectionate enough. Mind you we have 2 kids. A 5 year old and a 2 month old. What else should I do so he doesn’t feel this way???


----------



## Davidmidwest (Nov 22, 2016)

HELLO,
I will save your marriage provided you do this. read John Gottman, phd princicples of malking marriage work. read Dr. laura schlessiongers book proper care and feeding of marriage. both of you read. it. as soon as you read this post go online and read up and print out gottmans six hours a week plan on couples interaction. it has little things that you do daily. practice the 24 hour rule if one is too tired for sex when a bid is made for making lovel the person who turns down the bid for love making has the responsbility to make love the next night and no getting outy of it. the next night the person must make it more special and memorable suducement. twice a month take turns seducing each other. nothing elaborate or could be, it has to be thoughtful and loving. do six hours a week plan action by gotman, go out and date and create shared memories. that will divorce proof. those who play together stay together. no mr husband. you pursue and your wife wil follow. wife, great your husband all the time all the time at the door excited like your kids ge excited when dad comes home from work, just like your pet dog gets excited. that greeting will excite the D risings and he will kiss you like crazy due to admiration and appreciation cuz you show up with a smile, happy a kissn and a touch - put lipstick on or lip gloss, flavored be cool too. dot your cheeks with lip stick. just enought to show fake blush like your face is lightly flushed. you don[t have to dress up,, Man your husband mr, this is your role to create desire between you two it is a circle. dress up or lightly look good, go an date, have fun no kids, do an actity eat, you get out of the house go out together reglarlty. the cirle. 1 go out,, date out of the house, invite,. her 2 take charge, don[t tell her wghere you are going or dont half the time- mystery is good, do this== 3. plan, tell where going, tell he what to do dresss politely act lovingly, 4. go ro the venue, be affextoinate be cetain, 4. Have fun with bo expectation of sex, go home repeat. 5 have dates regularaly... here how it works, you together, go outm dress up, enjoy each o thers company, have fun, go homre revel in the joy togetherness, repeat. the ciurulary of this routine you weill feel so amicaboe, loving that you will want to cuddle, kisss, have sex. you have to keep up the routinel. one more thing man wants sex give it. woman you wat sex husband give it on demand when she wants it withihn reason. God owns your and your spouse owns you. you are one now. there is no sepearting the two. Man you are the king you have a proverbs 31 woman. you both should treat each other as such. want a kiss more woman or man ge asserive and give itl you want it more the spouse that is fallihg short give it. Dr laura on love says give love no matter how you feel. feelings die, actions do not. in 1 week you will see improvement both hve to read and do what wrote. good luck to you.


----------



## Davidmidwest (Nov 22, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The problem comes when you think getting sex is an entitlement. I've already talked about in this thread that sex should not be a chore and most people agree. But if you're busy and exhausted and not at all in the mood for sex then yes it is a chore someone is demanding it of you. It's for when two people feel like having it that it's worth anything as far as bonding. because trust me if someone's having it just because you want it but they don't really want to, resentment is building.


bull ****. gottmans 24 hour rule if you refuse today or togniht the bid for sex you have to set up the ambiance for the next night no getting out of it . It ignites excitement and expectation. tht menas making it a nice romantic session. NOT hey les hitt the hey ;.I AM a MAN MY WIFE *****es like the above i don't want it either, if i act like a crab on a bid and mean to here. i would expect no sex for a long time. man sex gives us oxytocin to kill draggons and brng home bacon, love cherrismnent and being llistened to giets womans blook pumping to have sex with you = men to it right she will F the hate of the world out of you...for you go keep loving her and for you slay. dont rebuff sex. if sort of tired do the 24 hour rule. or just do it for ten minutes that is all it takes, you both get off, get the connecition hormone and feel better. isn't that better to surrender than fight.. if uou both can relax even when tired to and relax enought to enjoy touch and make love. would you not want to do that. 

this comment of yours ))trust me if someone's having it just because you want it but they don't really want to, resentment is building.) Its your duty both of yours. Its a mans right and a womans right to want it and within reason have it on kine of a scheduled demand or give it up sponstaneiously. If you can' express love ad sex is a duty ahd not feel like it is a reason not to do it, then going to work for money for me to support the family should be an option. If that is the case I will opt out to earn money. Duty, providing, giving life sustaining love, having sex,food sustancne safety, a home is obligatory, If you feel it is not-leave. it is hard to make love to your mate when the 4 hourseman of the appocolpse of relationships show up. It shows real love when you can loving give it up to your partner, sex and making love takes some real guts when mararied and either one *****es sex is a chore. its a pleasure ---dah. if you disagree you are a too far gone feminist. If you are a man, don't be a cry baby, Man up, get counseling to be a better man,, lover. If something else is amuck beyond this--Man you better become re pill aware, and read up on womans real nature, and hypergamy


----------



## Davidmidwest (Nov 22, 2016)

sex is an entitlement but more of a negotiated obligation. when one gets married the woman has no know tha-give it up. A man must know it is a two way street, plus the man has the obligqation to love and cherrish, in addition fulfill the masculine emoitonal needs a woman needs. She needs that to make love to a man. If us men are cut off a little bit, we failed to love and do our jobs. /=Cherrish her, we get respect, we give back more love and emotional love back to her. Then she will give us sex all the time within reason. There is no holding that back, less you will get kicked out in a decade or you kick the guy out in or before decade and divorced. That means no sex no children no family, no wife who is your pride and love. FYI Alpha f***S = BYE BYE HYPERGAMY, OR ARE YOU A Beta bucks-a ***** man husband) MEN STOP IT. MAN UP- TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR HOME AND WOMAN. Don't forget women-do your job giving us men love and respect. Us men are endowed and obligated by the bible too to give it up to you upon demand if you need and want it on demand, even if us men tired to. that is why it is human need and biblically man and wife are one.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Should be relieved you weren't demanding attention and were instead helping the kids.


If you're saying she'd be relieved, you're incorrect. She complained that she was lonely and miserable after the fact, actually. Translation: she was fine not having to pay attention to me; she was pissed off that I wasn't around to serve her (IOW, consequences).


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Which you can't do if you have children. You just don't get it. A baby and toddler's require constant attention and grown men shouldn't.


A grown man does not need 24/7 hands on for his basic survival needs. 

But a grown man has needs to remain in a sexually exclusive, primary relationship.

If someone “can’t” provide for both then they should either not have kids or not assume a primary, exclusive relationship and should get artificial insemination. 

If you can’t or won’t provide for both, then don’t try to have both.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Casual Observer said:


> There's a lot of things you say that make me very uncomfortable, mostly along the lines of either you make room for me and have sex when I have my "needs" or you're history. It takes a very particular type of relationship to pull that off without it seeming forced, transactional or at the very least, coerced.


I don't think of it that way. You cannot make anyone do anything. It's more of a boundary: I'm not going to invest time into meeting her wants and needs if she will not do the same. Why should I make consistent room for her if there's no reciprocation? I'll do the heavy lifting up front. But if it becomes one-sided, I'll say something. And if it doesn't improve I'll suggest we move on to rather than keep on going the same way.

At that point, a reasonable person will say "it is one-sided and I'll work on it with you" or "you're right, I'm just not into it and we should move on". The point is to remove the status quo. Things can't stay this way; you can be with me and enjoy what I have to offer (while meeting me with your own effort) or you can find a situation you like better. Unfortunately, there are ladies out there who resent having to make that choice. Those I just walk away from; if you cannot at least agree that my wants and needs matter as much as yours, then there's no point.

Note that the key here is I model the behavior I want from her. I don't demand, and I don't expect what I'm not giving myself. I set the example with a high measure of effort and consideration and merely ask that she come reasonably close to matching me. If the guy is some lazy fool, not helping her meet her needs, who just wants to show up and get laid, results won't be great.



Casual Observer said:


> I also have a difficult time with the idea that it's not the HD person's responsibility to put the LD partner in the mood. Seems a bit extreme to me. I get that it shouldn't constantly be the HD partner's job to try and control the LD partner's mood, because you really can't. You can try and avoid triggers and make the path as smooth as possible, but if someone's preference is to not be in the mood, anything you try isn't going to change it. At best you'll get guilty sex, which morphs into resentment.


You're not interpreting what I said correctly. I am fine with trying to put her in the mood; that's what I mean by saying that I accept responsibility for creating an environment conducive to intimacy. What I am saying that if she doesn't respond to my advances it's not necessarily my fault. She has to decide to respond to my advances and allow it to happen. And while this might not be the OP, there are ladies for whom all the right buttons are pushed and sex still doesn't happen (or it's begrudging).


Hang-ups
Power ploys
Ladies who are satisfied just by being noticed


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

None of these problems are about who is giving the right effort or providing enough help, thus it that.
People do what they want to do.
Lots of women and men will have sex when they’re angry (great way to get to the end of a silly argument), super tired (great way to get a restful sleep), stressed (great stress reliever), and any other good reason one can come up with to not want sex. 

all the excuses are just that. Excuses.
Not necessarily excuses for bad behavior, but excuses why they don’t WANT to have sex with their husband. And I disagree with all on this thread that say if the husband did this or that, he’d likely get more sex. Nope, not gonna happen. If he was the biggest asshole, most sexist, lazy, dope headed man alive—- if his wife WANTED to have sex with him, he’d be getting it. Nothing a man dies fir his wife can mage her WANT sex with him.

She doesn’t. He isn’t.

now a man can be patient and do what he feels is reasonable on the length of time he waits, but if a man’s wife doesn’t want him sexually, then I feel it’s reasonable to leave a frigid wife and find one who isn’t.
The lack of sexual desire may not be her fault, and often likely not something she even wishes in herself. But a man who wants to be held and made love to by his wife is pretty standard behavior, and a wife who no longer wants her husband sexually should be a little more understanding.

Btw, I have had instances where I just flat out did not want to have sex with my lady, and did anyway. There have been times when I took care of her orally when I just didn’t want it, and enjoyed getting her off because I loved her and wanted her satisfied. And I knew how it felt to be rejected and didn’t want her to feel That.

Did I read he was getting it twice a week a year after birth?
Yeah, if he’s griping about that, he is in the wrong. 

.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Divinely Favored said:


> Matter fact the day we were discussing my issues with her and lack of time(she said we just had sex the other day...no it was 13 days ago) she was so in her head about what she had to do. Then she was *****ing about having to do everything and i refuted that with all the house and yard work i do and *she made a snide remark "What, do you expect me to give you a cookie?"*
> 
> In a way it was good as that was the point that my view of her changed. My co-dependent self and putting her on a pedestal stopped. I dropped 50#, hit the weights and was more aloof emotionally. She thought i was gone after that....no.... we changed the pecking order and i became the leader in the home. It hurt but was for the best. Her feeling like she did everything was partly based on her feeling like she had to make the important decisions as i was good with what ever she wanted to do.


This is just an AWFUL thing to say to anyone, but especially your PARTNER...I am glad it was a wake-up call for you both, and brought about the changes that helped you, but still...are you supposed to be respected and cared for by her because you demand it?? NO WAY. That was HER deficiency from the beginning, NOT yours.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DTO said:


> It does not have to be duty sex. People are so binary: either both partners are horny, or it's crap obligatory relations.
> 
> What about a scenario where one partner decides that even though he or she is not horny, the desire to honor his or her partner IS there and a loving sacrifice will be made?


YES - THIS...exactly!!!!


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> There's a lot of things you say that make me very uncomfortable, mostly along the lines of either you make room for me and have sex when I have my "needs" or you're history. It takes a very particular type of relationship to pull that off without it seeming forced, transactional or at the very least, coerced. I also have a difficult time with the idea that it's not the HD person's responsibility to put the LD partner in the mood. Seems a bit extreme to me. I get that it shouldn't constantly be the HD partner's job to try and control the LD partner's mood, because you really can't. You can try and avoid triggers and make the path as smooth as possible, but if someone's preference is to not be in the mood, anything you try isn't going to change it. At best you'll get guilty sex, which morphs into resentment.
> 
> BUT- I do get the issue of LD partner claiming to be worn out all the time, and so not in the mood for intimacy, all the while doing a ton of optional things with their spare time, filling every nook & cranny of the day and then having nothing left at the end. That is a choice, a choice that is placing all manner of things in a more important position than intimacy. It's OK to make that choice, but you can't expect it to not affect your relationship. You don't necessarily have to schedule sex, but you should necessarily create some space for it; it shouldn't be crowded out.


I see what you mean here, and it's a valuable point of view, but let me tell you, as someone who struggled with a LD partner (before giving up, which was less painful), everything he says sounds SPOT ON to me. I don't believe he's being too demanding - I think he's being clear and direct and honest, and that's going to be the best way to have his needs met in his next relationship.

I know you have some of the most grueling experiences with this as any of us, but I am still not sure that I see your method and outcome as successful (as much as I respect you), and I know it's not successful for ME...I would rather be single, than with a partner and having my needs ignored. And you can bet going forward that I will be clear that regular sex is an obligation for being in a relationship with ME. Anything else will not make me happy, and I would be a poor choice for a man who didn't want that as well. And I think it's only fair to make sure that man would know about my expectations ahead of time.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> I see what you mean here, and it's a valuable point of view, but let me tell you, as someone who struggled with a LD partner (before giving up, which was less painful), everything he says sounds SPOT ON to me. I don't believe he's being too demanding - I think he's being clear and direct and honest, and that's going to be the best way to have his needs met in his next relationship.
> 
> I know you have some of the most grueling experiences with this as any of us, but I am still not sure that I see your method and outcome as successful (as much as I respect you), and I know it's not successful for ME...I would rather be single, than with a partner and having my needs ignored. And you can bet going forward that I will be clear that regular sex is an obligation for being in a relationship with ME. Anything else will not make me happy, and I would be a poor choice for a man who didn't want that as well. And I think it's only fair to make sure that man would know about my expectations ahead of time.


There are a lot of things on TAM that you, as a woman, can say, and context is preserved in a way that the post is seen positively. Same thing from a guy, and it's not PC. And that's OK, because it's important to recognize those differences and how differently things can play out at home, because men and women aren't all the same. If that makes sense?


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> There are a lot of things on TAM that you, as a woman, can say, and context is preserved in a way that the post is seen positively. Same thing from a guy, and it's not PC. And that's OK, because it's important to recognize those differences and how differently things can play out at home, because men and women aren't all the same. If that makes sense?


Hmm...MAYBE...but that's one reason I wanted to point out that from my feminine perspective, I completely agreed with what @DTO was saying, so no matter how slanted this thread seems along gender lines, in reality, it's pretty close to the same for men AND women - it's more about our basic NEEDS being cared about and met by our partners, NOT about men's needs VS women's needs.

And just because something a man feels and wants to express isn't PC, he should still be allowed to express it, especially if it's valuable to the discussion and brings understanding of the issue forward (and it's not hateful). I'm really glad he posted his thoughts because they are very similar to mine, and he said them in a much better way than I could have!!


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> Hmm...MAYBE...but that's one reason I wanted to point out that from my feminine perspective, I completely agreed with what @DTO was saying, so no matter how slanted this thread seems along gender lines, in reality, it's pretty close to the same for men AND women - it's more about our basic NEEDS being cared about and met by our partners, NOT about men's needs VS women's needs.
> 
> And just because something a man feels and wants to express isn't PC, he should still be allowed to express it, especially if it's valuable to the discussion and brings understanding of the issue forward (and it's not hateful). I'm really glad he posted his thoughts because they are very similar to mine, and he said them in a much better way than I could have!!


You summed it up very nicely. I accept that any S.O. may not have the same wants, needs, sensibilities as me. Regarding sex, for instance, she might not have the same drive or activity preferences as me; that's not a problem. She just needs to accept them and treat them as equally important as her own. And she should expect the same from me.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DTO said:


> You summed it up very nicely. I accept that any S.O. may not have the same wants, needs, sensibilities as me. Regarding sex, for instance, she might not have the same drive or activity preferences as me; that's not a problem. *She just needs to accept them and treat them as equally important as her own. And she should expect the same from me.*


This is exactly the point!!! Unfortunately, it seems to be VERY difficult for some people to do, usually AFTER they promise they will...


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Which you can't do if you have children. You just don't get it. A baby and toddler's require constant attention and grown men shouldn't.


It is a choice if a woman or man will not give 30 min 2x a week. That is not constant attention. They go to sleep at some point. It is not a cant....it is they choose not to.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Divinely Favored said:


> It is a choice if a woman or man will not give 30 min 2x a week. That is not constant attention. They go to sleep at some point. It is not a cant....it is they choose not to.


Exactly my point. Saying you're too tired, too busy, etc. is an excuse to avoid responsibility and consequences. Because once the truth comes out - his / her needs don't matter enough to try - the refused may get a dose of his or her medicine.


----------



## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Some husbands get jealous of the time children take from them. He just needs to deal with kids in the family. Especially a new born. Congratulations by the way.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

LadyB3 said:


> Hi everyone I am new here!
> My husband and I just had a discussion about me not being affectionate enough. He says that I only kiss him good morning and Goodnight and that I don’t start or initiate making love to him.
> i do !!! I feel like because I don’t do it often like 5 times a week (intense kissing leading to having sex) , he feels like I am not affectionate enough. Mind you we have 2 kids. A 5 year old and a 2 month old. What else should I do so he doesn’t feel this way???


Yet another whiner who's jealous of the infant he CHOSE to have and is expecting his wife to be all things to all people 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Dancing as fast as you can gets *real* old, doesn't it?

Is he THAT much of a damned child that he doesn't realize what it takes - around the clock - to tend to an 8 week old baby? Is he really *that* stupidly selfish?

Yeah. He is.


----------



## SportingChance (Dec 7, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> ....I think it important that both she and her husband understand where things can lead, if they both keep going down the same path. Perhaps the most-important things in a relationship, the things that determine longevity, are about losing feelings about being right & wrong about things.


 Very true! The only thing I would add is for both also to have the patience and openness to learn each other’s communication style (not just love language). I often see 
bitterness and pride creep into relationships instead of intimacy (not just the physical act like many young couples including myself think it is when 1st married) and growth. I don’t think the initial poster is that way because of her last words on her first was a sincere what more can I do (which is best asked to her spouse and really listen beyond his words to his intent). It’s worth the emotional risk. At worst case if you really try to that level, at least you can say with no reserve you have given them your best and you both just aren’t right for each other.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Yet another whiner who's jealous of the infant he CHOSE to have and is expecting his wife to be all things to all people 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.


That’s bull crap as well as unnecessary and inflammatory hostility that actually harms the relations between new parents rather than provide any kind of benefit.

When we had babies and young children, I knew that there would be great demands on both of our time and energies. 

I most certainly did not want 24/7 attention and that is a venomous and inflammatory thing to say.

There were times I would have been good with 10 minutes of actual eye contact and person to person conversation as an actual couple now and then. 

I knew full well we would not have the love and sex life we had prior to kids. But I did not sign up for a life of indentured servitude and indefinite celibacy.

Did I want 24/7 access to her vagina for my own sordid desires? NO. I was an adult man and father.

But I was still a virile man and husband and some form of marital relations between a husband and wife is not an unrealistic or unreasonable expectation. 

So it’s not fair for you to attack a man’s need for intimacy as an oppressive and unreasonable expectation and the hostile and inflammatory rhetoric of 24/7 demands is part of that more and more men are opting out of the marriage and fatherhood market.

After all, why should men sign up for marriage and fatherhood if women are going to accuse them of being sex maniacs and making 24/7 sex demands, if they are simply going to want to maintain some semblance of a marital love life in spite of having children.

That kind of hostility and rhetoric is actually harmful to the challenges that new parents face.


----------

