# The trust is damaged



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

I am finding this whole site compelling. Sometimes it is helping me. Sometimes it is sending me back into a tailspin of doubt. It is time to post.

After 20 very happy years together, my wife and I have recently come through a difficult period during which I confronted her over a series of behavioral changes on her part. In short - while I had no evidence of infidelity, over a period of about three months there were many red flags. I had always believed in trust and had chosen to stay quiet as the red flags fluttered more strongly, until one straw too many was placed on the back of the camel and I raised the issue.

To keep the story short, after several lengthy and difficult communications she provided very credible justification for about 70% of the issues I had. The remaining 30% could then fade into insignificance as, on their own, they would not have aroused my suspicions. She has managed to convince me that she was probably not being unfaithful. I say "probably". She is upset that I am not absolutely convinced - but I just can't move to that complete belief yet. I still have a small but nagging doubt.

The upshot of all of this is that, on the assumption she was NOT being unfaithful, she was at least sparing of the truth, and taking the relationship for granted. Think in terms of lack of communication re whereabouts, business and personal travel plans, cell phone use etc - where previously there had always been complete visibility. I can go into the many other red flags but it is probably unnecessary. I was hurt by the behavior whether it included infidelity or not.

She has made efforts to change her behavior (but a couple of these with some reluctance), and I see, acknowledge and appreciate these. But I still have that doubt.

For the first time in our relationship I have taken the opportunity to look at her email accounts (three that I know of) on her smart phone. I do not have access to her computer (but in fairness - nether does she to mine, though the password is to keep the kids off - not her, and she is welcome to ask). She keeps nothing in her outbox, and very few emails in her inbox. Perhaps she is just disciplined at managing email - perhaps not.

But she also has her office notebook, to which I have no access, and an office phone, which I cannot monitor. She freely acknowledges that she has opportunities if she wants them, but insists she has never been unfaithful. She has apologized profusely for the circumstances that resulted in my doubt.

I haven't really explained the background here. Suffice to say that I just need to trust her again if we are to get back to our happy place. More likely that not, my distrust was not merited, but I can't yet get past it.

I have told her that, even if she had been unfaithful, I would not let it ruin the marriage - so long as it had stopped and she recommitted to us. This has only drawn denials of infidelity, which seem very genuine. My wife is a very capable and highly educated (and attractive) lady. If she wanted to cover her tracks she would do a good job of it. 

I've been reading other posts about trust - I don't really expect anything new. Just expressing my distress I guess.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

She said this:


> She has apologized profusely for the circumstances that resulted in my doubt.


Yet you stated that she reacted like this:


> She has made efforts to change her behavior (but a couple of these with some reluctance)...


How do those square up? My guess is that if there is cheating, it's with an coworker and all of the communications and contact are at work. So you'll never get the smoking gun. Were the most glaring red flags - assumed vagueness with her travel arrangements - centered around work? Seriously though, you won't get a whole lot more input unless you provide more detail. Don't know if she's cheating or not.


----------



## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Get a voice activated recorder in her car. Monitor it for 2 weeks. You might catch something but it will be difficult and boring.

You don't sound convinced that she has told the truth and I get the impression that you are trying to convince yourself more than anything.


----------



## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

I hate to say it but you sound exactly like me 2 years ago. Does you wife travel at all for work? If you ask for access to her phone is she reluctant? Odds are it won't matter. There wan never anything on my wife's phone. And you probably can never access her work phone records and she knows this so they just call. For me it took one red flag to many and the ilybianilwy speech to provoke me to use a VAR. it took 2 days to get what I needed and feared. 

I would say keep your eyes open. If you are willing get a Var and put it in her car. 

Has she been working on her appearance? New clothes or makeup or working out?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

More details on what the red flags were/are will help you get way better feedback from TAM.

One word of caution, it is truly shocking how accurate your gut can be. If you have been happily married, and free from suspicions until recently, give serious pause before you just accept everything and go back to the way things were.

In other words, if you have not been a suspicious spouse for years and years, there is VERY likely something happening that got your spidey sense tingling. It may not be a full blown affair, or at least not a physical affair. But chances are, your gut picked up on some changes in behavior that you need to explore further.

Ignore your gut at your own peril! The better idea is to do more diggin, but without tipping your hand. Put a key logger on the home computer. Try to get more access to her phone. Look up her phone records (text usage is often the first smoking gun). Consider putting a VAR in her car for a few days. 

You confronted without evidence, which almost always results in total denial and lots of excuses. She will now likely be more careful, if something is going. Don't give her the warning again. Go into stealth mode for awhile. 

Watch, observe, learn, dig. Trust your gut enough to do the homework.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

And one more thing, don't ever "pre forgive infidelity" like you did. Saying you would take her back etc. Its like giving someone a marriage hall pass.

You cannot forgive someone for something you don't know about/they haven't admitted to and that you haven't experienced the pain from. *IF* she cheated, then you need to ensure she experience appropriate consequences. Telling someone who is denying any wrong doing that you would forgive them is a huge tactical error, and nothing but rug sweeping at its worst.


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Put a var in her car that seems to get fast results.


----------



## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

Reluctant_Doubter said:


> I still have a small but nagging doubt.
> 
> But I still have that doubt.
> 
> ...


Top two things I've learned through infidelity and its aftermath:

1) The most accurate predictor that your spouse is, or has been, involved in an extra-marital affair is your gut instinct.

2) Until it happens to you, the level of deceit, obfuscation, lying, deflection, and gaslighting your spouse will inflict upon you while looking you in the eye, breaking bread with your children, and sleeping in your bed, is incomprehensible.


----------



## Playing Catch-Up (Apr 8, 2013)

Ok I was where you are now about a year ago. I'm still in the midst of working out my problems so take what I say with a grain of salt--I'm no expert and there are some really sharp people here who can help you more than I can. That being said, one thing I think is to never ignore your gut instinct in your situation. If you think something is wrong, something is even if it isn't actual infidelity. Your body and mind are telling you something so don't ignore them or get talked out of paying attention by your wife. My wife did that to me and over the course of a year I was able to discover that most of my gut instinct was spot on, she was doing exactly what I thought. Most WS follow certain patterns so their consistent behaviors can be detected by BS if they pay attention. 

Trust is really hard to rebuild, but don't begin on that process until your questions have been answered and your WS has shown she takes full responsibility for putting you in this situation, once again even if she hasn't cheated. Other problems have been caused.

Workplace situations are hard to deal with as I have discovered because the communications are between two people in a place you have no or little access to. So don't assume because her devices at home are free of incriminating communications that nothing has gone on. I checked my wife's personal and work emails, facebook, phone, texts on that phone, call records, etc and still didn't know that all of her contact with OM was through a little used workplace email service that could only be accessed in her office. So don't assume.

I also made the mistake of telling my wife that I would forgive her upfront if she was honest, and the person above who says this is a hall pass is correct. My wife didn't take it as an attempt at reconciliation, she took it as weakness and stupidity on my part and a greenlight to continue doing what she was doing. You need to show, one way or the other, that you take all this very seriously as a threat to you and your marriage, and let her know you are willing to act accordingly.


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

Thank you all for the comments. Some have asked for more detail. I'll oblige.

Has she started working out? No. She never stopped. My 50 year old wife has the body of a fit 25 year old.

Has she started working on her appearance - yes, a little. This was a red flag - but as I had encouraged her in the little things she was doing, I have to discount that a little. In other words I myself provided her with the perfect cover and excuse for any little extra mileage she was putting into clothing and her appearance. 

Could it be a work relationship? I very much doubt it. My suspicion has always been that if there is a relationship, it is with one of the men she works out with.

Does she travel on business - yes. So do I. She is not travelling any more than usual. But this was a red flag because we have both always shared our itineraries the moment flights and hotels are booked. It was the failure on her part to share her itinerary on two recent occasions which raised flags. However the moment I challenged her on this she immediately forwarded emails of itineraries, past and future, together with email threads both internal and with clients connected with that travel. So her claim was that she had overlooked forwarding them to me (busy, stressed, thought she had forwarded them, why didn't I ask earlier rather than stew about it etc etc). The evidence proves that the travel was legitimate, but does not prove that all activity while travelling was legitimate. She was defensive when I questioned it and remains so.

She also travels for pleasure (her sports activity). In the past I have accompanied her, and when the kids were younger we took them too. Now the kids need to be dragged around to their own events and if my wife is travelling - I must stay to transport the kids (no chore there - I love being a part of my kids' activities). It is this sports-related travel I think offers her the greatest opportunity. It was the failure to share her itinerary for a recent trip that added the last straw to the camel's back.

I have looked into her cellphone use and text use. There are no red flags in her call patterns - but then we have several older cellphones in the house and it would be straight forward for her to be operating a pay-as-you-go account on one of those. Her texting raised some concerns but nothing serious. The biggest cellphone flags were as follows: Unexplained data usage - high on certain days when I knew she was at home and therefore did not need a cellphone for web use. She has a skype account (legitimate for work) with a VOIP phone subscription. If she makes voip voice calls from her cell phone via skype this would show up as data usage. I challenged her on this and she showed me her office skype account - but she could always be operating a second skype account. Secondly she got into the pattern of leaving her cellphone on in bed, and rolling over (back to me) to read it. Thus I could not see what she was reading. She claimed she was using her phone to catch up on business news (she does have various news feed to it) and lying on her side was comfortable. I want the bedroom to be a technology free zone - or at least for her to just sit up while reading. Her reaction has been to stop using the cellphone in the bedroom altogether. I told her I find the complete phone abstinence concerning - if she had just changed to reading sitting up I think I would have worried less.

We are Facebook friends, but I do not know all of her other friends. I know she uses Facebook messages to communicate with at least one girlfriend, and I cannot trace that unless I access her Facebook account. She uses Facebook mobile - which again could explain data usage.

One of the big red flags was the car GPS log. After the recent sporting trip, and after we had "discussed" it, I downloaded the GPS log and also looked at the GPS location searches. The trip was to the right place - but the GPS was mysteriously turned off before the destination and the log ended. Despite this, there were three destinations - one being a hotel other than hers - in the "recently found" record. Her explanation was that she knew where she was going once she got to a certain point - so switched off the GPS, and that the other destinations were selected via the GPS touch screen by mistake, when trying to do something else. I have never found these explanations credible and they remain part of the unresolved 30%.

She has provided access to her phone - but she is IT savy. As I noted - there are no outbound emails saved. None, zip nada. Who deletes ALL of their outbound emails?

Anyway - if she was unfaithful I've made detection harder by forewarning her. I will look into the VAR idea.

Oh yeah - intimacy dropped off - but she put that down to pre-menopausal symptoms and work stress. Then recently we had a couple of wild nights and she showed interest in something she does not usually show interest in. That could be a huge red flag right there, but equally her comment - that she was trying to get things back on track - could also be true.

For every suspicious answer there is also a credible explanation. I need to gather the smoking gun evidence - or prove (I very much hope) that there is NO smoking gun.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

So which behaviors did she end up changing after some reluctance? I don't think you shared that yet.


----------



## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

Quit questioning her. Play it as if you are satisfied with her explanations and tell her so. You now have to be very careful in your information gathering.

Her defensiveness + her explanation for everything are themselves suspicious. They sound very rehearsed to me.

As they say, if your gut is telling you something, it is probably right.

Your wife seems ripe for the cheating side of town from what you tell me.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Reluctant_Doubter said:


> It is this sports-related travel I think offers her the greatest opportunity. It was the failure to share her itinerary for a recent trip that added the last straw to the camel's back.


Your senses have been awakened to your wife acting differently.




> I have looked into her cellphone use and text use. There are no red flags in her call patterns - but then we have several older cellphones in the house and it would be straight forward for her to be operating a pay-as-you-go account on one of those. Her texting raised some concerns but nothing serious. The biggest cellphone flags were as follows: Unexplained data usage - high on certain days when I knew she was at home and therefore did not need a cellphone for web use.


There exist text messaging apps, and other methods to contact other people without the call history or text message. She has a work phone and an office laptop as well.



> She has a skype account (legitimate for work) with a VOIP phone subscription. If she makes voip voice calls from her cell phone via skype this would show up as data usage. I challenged her on this and she showed me her office skype account - but she could always be operating a second skype account.


You're smart.



> Secondly she got into the pattern of leaving her cellphone on in bed, and rolling over (back to me) to read it. Thus I could not see what she was reading. She claimed she was using her phone to catch up on business news (she does have various news feed to it) and lying on her side was comfortable.


Smells like a fishy fish. If you try to see what she is doing will she hide the phone? Does she have a lock on the phone?




> We are Facebook friends, but I do not know all of her other friends. I know she uses Facebook messages to communicate with at least one girlfriend, and I cannot trace that unless I access her Facebook account. She uses Facebook mobile - which again could explain data usage.


I would assume you do not share the same facebook account. Does she share her facebook password with you? Do you have or can you attain access to it?



> One of the big red flags was the car GPS log. After the recent sporting trip, and after we had "discussed" it, I downloaded the GPS log and also looked at the GPS location searches. The trip was to the right place - but the GPS was mysteriously turned off before the destination and the log ended. Despite this, there were three destinations - one being a hotel other than hers - in the "recently found" record. Her explanation was that she knew where she was going once she got to a certain point - so switched off the GPS, and that the other destinations were selected via the GPS touch screen by mistake, when trying to do something else. I have never found these explanations credible and they remain part of the unresolved 30%.


What kidn of GPS is this? Is it a navigation system on the phone or in the car? If there is a navigation in the car, why not just leave it on, which would be the most expected reaction unless there is something or a location to hide.





> She has provided access to her phone - but she is IT savy. As I noted - there are no outbound emails saved. None, zip nada. Who deletes ALL of their outbound emails?


There are always outbound emails saved. Why would anyone delete unless they want to hid something.




> Anyway - if she was unfaithful I've made detection harder by forewarning her. I will look into the VAR idea.
> 
> Oh yeah - intimacy dropped off - but she put that down to pre-menopausal symptoms and work stress. Then recently we had a couple of wild nights and she showed interest in something she does not usually show interest in. That could be a huge red flag right there, but equally her comment - that she was trying to get things back on track - could also be true.




It can be argued that pre menopausal women do not really go through a lower or increased sex drive. It is very mixed. Its usually the opposite, increase sex drive, new experience, mid life crisis etc etc etc



> For every suspicious answer there is also a credible explanation. I need to gather the smoking gun evidence - or prove (I very much hope) that there is NO smoking gun.


It seems that you have the uppderhand in comparison to many other distraught posters.

Remain in control. Act as if everything is dandy. Don't question her. That was your mistake to confront. Rare do you get a confrontation with "hey why did you turn the gps off" "oh i'm cheating on you....sorry"

Gather evidence. 

VAR, buy several, use one while you listen to the other. Install keyloggers. Even if you are IT savvy unless you check for a keylogger EVERYTIME you use the computer, it'll be too late because a lot of them can give you info, such as screen shots, through email etc. and online access.

Give the benefit of the doubt, sure of course, but your gut has been telling you otherwise. The one that raised the largest red flag for me was her stopping by at another hotel that was not hers. Coincidence, chance, she turned it off because she found out she knew where she was going or because she already arrived and didn't want it to track location / time she was there.
BrickHouse Security | Home Security Camera Systems | GPS Surveillance

Edit: I don't have any affiliation with the site, nor am I advertising for it.

Take some time to read some threads, likethis one. Similar to yours, traveling wife/husband tales usually cause problems than not. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/46674-suspect-my-wife-gps-recommendations.html

This OP didn't alert his partner.


----------



## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm sorry for what you're going through. I'm new to all this as well, and the people here are pretty tough, but they're probably right a lot of the time. If things are being hidden in an honest relationship... why? What is there to hide that trumps the feelings of a partner who is clearly in distress over the omissions? Sure I'd be annoyed if my wife didn't trust me, but I have nothing to hide either, I would have allowed her to satiate her curiosity, and I would've gotten over it.

I went through the same conflicting feelings of trust and doubt (13 years together). I never thought she was capable of doing things that are now known facts, and I felt bad my suspicions remained after her reassurances to the contrary (lies, trickle-truth). I didn't trust my gut and I got burned, as I was under the false impression that the woman I was trusting was the woman I fell in love with. In fact, her whole being had twisted to accommodating her fantasy life and meeting her selfish desires.

I can't say if these things are true for you, but stay vigilant and do not sweep anything under the rug.


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

In answer to some of the further questions raised:

- we do not share Facebook passwords.
- the GPS is a stand alone unit that we can move between cars and take with us to use in rental cars when travelling.
- what she gave up (reluctantly) was her addiction to her cellphone. She now turns it off in the bedroom at night and agrees to leave it on her home-office desk when the family is at home together. She agreed, after some discussion, with my description of her cellphone attachment as addiction. I may just have pushed that underground.
- she also agreed to keep me better informed of her whereabouts. This was after two recent occasions when she said she would be home at x hour, but (not expecting that I was at home) did not return until y hour (each time an hour later than expected). She has stuck to that so far. I told her I did not want to be controlling, but that I could not think of a good reason why a spouse would not share his or her location with the other spouse. She agreed.

She is away again, and tonight I carefully turned the house upside down, but found nothing of concern. She has her notebook computer and phone with her, but I restored the most recent backup from her "Free Agent" backup drive. Nothing. The data is incredibly well organized and there are no browsing or email histories. My wife didn't get where she is today (professionally) by being stupid. Equally, maybe there was nothing to hide.

We have shared finances - so complete visibility there. We are fortunate financially and each earns well - so there are no financial pressures in the relationship. But there are no obvious signs of unexplained spending on her part. 

I'll continue to watch. Right now I feel neither reassured nor concerned at my lack of discovery. Just in no-mans-land and waiting for movement either way.


----------



## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

One of your major problems, is that your wife is away doing supposedly legit things---way to much

What sport does she participate in, at what level, and how much away time does she spend---is the participation for fun, or is she in it for money, does it relate to her job---what is the situation, any team sport---requires meetings, practices, games, and travel---if it is a coed situation, or if a woman only team, but with men trainers and coaches---you have a large problem right there---also with spectators, who follow along, with some becoming groupies---you know what I am talking about---most sports involve men being around on some level, so unless you are present----there is very little you can do, while she out "doing her sport"

The gym is another problem---she can be getting away with any and everything at the gym, and you will never know it----you can stop that altogether, by getting her set up to workout at home

As to work, once again---if she travels, or even at her workplace---you have a problem---and there is really nothing you can do---as long as she is gonna work

She is 50---her mindset may also be, that she is running out of time, if she does want to have an A., as w/in a few yrs, she will not be appealing to the younger studs---and she I am sure doesn't wanna fool around with an older man up in age, as there is probably little appeal there

Social websites, another problem------

You know it all boils down, to if she is gonna cheat, and she knows how to cover herself---you won't find out, except for the possible changes she makes in herself------we all trust, until the cheater slips up bad enuff, and we catch them, or at least have enuff evidence to force a showdown-----your wife, has a lot of opportunity to cheat---and unless you are gonna lock her in a tower, there isn't a whole lot you can do

Moniter as best you can---and if you do get an issue that you can go after her about---demand a Poly----good luck to you---mge ain't easy---just take care of yourself


----------



## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Buy a couple of voice-activated recorders and some heavy duty velcro. Put one in her car and one in the house where she is likel to talk on the phone when you're not around. You will get your answer the next time you go away.

There is no way to catch someone who is tech savvy if they want to go to the extra lengths of not being caught. They can use apps whose calls/messages just show as data usage. She works out with this guy and travels with him, so she sees him in person quite a bit and he lives close by. Now, he will be doing all the driving because she knows you look at the gps.

Maybe a nanny cam in the house and VAR are your best bets for finding out what really is going on.

Other thing you can do is hire a private investigator, either next time she travels for her sports or next time you travel. Expensive, but worth it to put your mind at ease and save your marriage of 20 years.

Do you have a particular "other man" in mind?

Stop asking questions and act like you buy her story hook, line, and sinker. You don't want her to cool the affair now, when you might actually be able to find the truth using the VAR, camera, or private investigator.


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks again for the ideas and suggestions. I have spent several hours reading through many other threads, and have found lots of commonality and support.

I will not say much more about my wife's travel here. This is a public forum. However the questions asked are valid and well taken.

I will be pursuing the VAR idea (in car and home). I will also be playing it cool from now on - though that it not going to be automatic behavior given the way I feel. 

I had previously suggested counselling to her, with the emphasis on urgency. She agreed, but asked that it be deferred for two months because of deadlines she had. Again this is one of those red flag answers that could just as easily be a fair and reasonable answer. Anyway, I'll lay low for two months and observe. We'll see what happens.

All this reading (on other threads) has caused me to think about my role in all of this. Even if she has not been unfaithful, has my behavior caused her to become distant, non-communicative and at least a little dishonest with me? The threads have given me a lot to think about in this respect though they have also allowed me to rule out many things. I don't treat her like a little princess (she is very Type A and a high achiever - the princess stuff cuts no ice with her). I do always treat her as an equal partner and with respect, and I romance her in the same way I did before we got married. I work very hard to keep the romance in the relationship. I also do my best to look smart, and stay in shape, and I know she knows that other women have found me attractive. She also knows that I always keep an appropriate distance between me and such women - so no problems there.

I guess there is one more thing I will share - because it is chewing away at me. It is old old history, and I had long since gotten past it, but recent events have brought it back to mind and I am having trouble shaking it off.

This is my second marriage, but her first. My first marriage was wrong from the get go, and was pretty much doomed by the end of the first year. But I persevered for three more years, and remained faithful throughout - trying to make it work. Anyway - that is another story, but end of it was that I eventually began an affair (my one and only), with guess who - my current wife. That was tumultuous - I did not like cheating, despite the fact that I was in a loveless marriage, and called it off. That didn't work either, and a few months later I decided to leave my first wife. In between times my current wife had two other sex partners (as of course she was free to do - as I was married and she was single). However once I left my first wife we moved in together and got married as soon as the divorce was through. As far as I know we have had 20 very happy years since.

But here is what is chewing me up. I know my wife is capable of conducting an affair with a married man - she has done so at least once before (when I was that married man). I know my wife is capable of hooking up with other men for casual sex - she did so twice that I know about after I had ended our original affair - neither was a lasting boyfriend and one was a one night stand and the other a dirty week away. But we were in our 20s then. None of this should be relevant to us today. And yet I am dwelling on it.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Reluctant_Doubter said:


> But here is what is chewing me up. I know my wife is capable of conducting an affair with a married man - she has done so at least once before *(when I was that married man*). I know my wife is capable of hooking up with other men for casual sex - she did so twice that I know about after I had ended our original affair - neither was a lasting boyfriend and one was a one night stand and the other a dirty week away. But we were in our 20s then. *None of this should be relevant to us today*. And yet I am dwelling on it.



You mention this now? Did I miss this in the first post?

It has a lot to do with you today, obviously...

Anyway, VAR is your best friend, as Will Kane recommended.

Buy a couple and place them in her car with velcro.


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

I never mentioned it in my first post.

I'm not sure why it has a lot to do with me today - and I don't know why this is obvious.

I can't see that I should be judging my wife's behavior today on the basis of behaviors over 20 years go when she was single. I would not agree with her if she were to judge me on old behaviors in different circumstances. 

The point in mentioning it is that that it does contribute to the way I am feeling - my emotions - in the current situation. I am not proud of that, and I do not see it as rational. It is purely an emotional reaction. Perhaps by mentioning it I am hoping to get past it and focus on the current facts.

The VAR is a given. Noted. We move on.


----------



## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

RD: I'm guessing that what you're sensing is that your wife has been pulling away from you and she seems to enjoy doing things on her own. Her lifestyle is feeding right into this behavior and reinforcing it.

Spouses in that situation are very susceptible to affairs.


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

@PrePaphaelite,

I think you have summed that up nicely.

Excluding me, my wife has 30 friends on Facebook. 20 of these are male. I have met only 4 of those 20. I have met the girlfriend of a 5th. That leaves 15 male Facebook friends - I believe all connected to her sport - but none of whom I have met or know anything about.

Conversely, of the 10 female friends, I know 6, leaving only 4 I know nothing about.

In contrast I have 16 female friends on Facebook. Two of these are direct relatives. She has met all but two of the others and knows several of them well - and the two she has not met are very old school friends that live in a different country and whom I have not seen for years. Only two of my female Facebook friends live in the same city as we do, and my wife knows them both. 

We only have one mutual friend on Facebook - who dates back to before we were married and currently lives in a different country.

I never thought about this before, but now I feel uncomfortable about it.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Reluctant_Doubter said:


> I never mentioned it in my first post.
> 
> I'm not sure why it has a lot to do with me today - and I don't know why this is obvious.
> 
> ...


You're kidding, right? It is of extreme importance because you had an affair with the woman that eventually became your 2nd wife. It's not like cheating in the relationship would be unprecedented. She knows that you are capable of doing this, and she is the same. Right off the bat, the trust will not be there in the first place.


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

No, I am not kidding. We got past that baggage very quickly and trust was at the heart of our relationship. Having been through one breakup in a loveless marriage, I do not condemn first-time cheaters in the way I used to. I first ask myself - is the marriage already dead and irrecoverable (as my first one was).

When we (my current wife and I) decided to make a life together, we set everything up for complete visibility. No separate bank accounts. Remember this was 20 years ago, there were no world wide web and no such thing as Facebook and smartphones. Webmail hadn't arrived and our email address (good old dial-up internet) was shared. We were not doing much business travel in those days and no priviate travel other than together.

It is hard to describe how much in love we were and how tumultuous our coming together had been. (I am still just as much in love) We were scarcely out of each other's sight - no through lack of trust but because we couldn't get enough of each other.

Remember too that we were equal partners - we both brought about the same money, education, assets and earning capacity into the relationship - neither of us was moving socially or financially as a result of our marriage.

We continued that way for years. We did most things together and supported each other in the things we chose to do apart (some different sporting interests on both sides - but also sporting interests in common). It is only in recent years that things have changed - viz - teenagers not yet old enough to drive but with busy weekend activities where one or other of us has to be present and, secondly, the advent of new technologies in recent years which - perhaps - has enabled secret activities.

From my perspective - my marriage is neither dead nor irrecoverable - at least not based on what I know so far. It will become that way if I learn the worst over the next two months. If I find nothing, and if my wife continues the corrective behavior she has started, then instead it will be a focus on new ground rules, openness, some changes in friendships here and there,sharing of passwords, and removal of the various enablers that are the cause of the current crisis.


----------



## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Reluctant_Doubter said:


> Having been through one breakup in a loveless marriage,_ I do not condemn first-time cheaters in the way I used to._ I first ask myself - is the marriage already dead and irrecoverable (as my first one was).


I wonder if your first spouse - whom was cheated on by you - feels the same way?

I am not asking that to try to score cheap points, it is because I also think you might take a different view if your current wife does turn out to be being unfaithful. I fervently hope she is not, but your apparent ambivalence to betrayal may even be causing some sort of insecurity in your spouse in some way.

Just putting it out there; I am not being deliberately critical of you. It just struck me as a thought.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

I've declared bankruptcy a couple of times in the past, want to give me a loan?

I don't mean a person is automatically going to act according to a script, but the premise of your original relationship was a mistake.


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

@Chris989

You raise a very fair question, and I do not see it as critical.

Yes - my first wife understood the collapse of our marriage and her role in it. She was quick to connect with her second husband, and they may have been having a thing before the break and before my affair. I will never know and do not need to.

I will not go into the details of that but the end of the marriage was the right thing for both of us. We had no kids and we remain amicable - albeit at a great physical distance and with very infrequent contact and then only when related to matters of shared family interest. I have always shared those very few contacts with my second wife. My first wife and I have neither seen nor spoken to each other (by voice) since we split. Contacts, though amicable, have only been in writing and can be counted on one hand.

Our marital problems were widely known in our families and our split surprised nobody. I can tell you that if my current wife and I split, it would surprise a great many people.


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

@CJS

I would agree it was a risk - but after 20 years of bliss (until now) I cannot agree that it was a mistake.


----------



## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

Wow - Your wife makes sure she cuts off the GPS so you really don't for a fact know what her destination was. This to me is a huge red flat.

The previous escapades of your wife is crucial. She has experience and the knowledge to hide affairs. There is an old saying which for many is extremely accurate which is: 
The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. She could have had previous affairs on you without your knowledge also.

You could always suggest that these accumulation of events has given you great concern and unease. In order for you to feel secure you would like to spend $500 to have a short polygraph done. I think it would be very interesting to see her response. 
If she says absolutely then I think you probably would not need to do it. On the other hand, watch her verbal and non verbal signs if she reacts negatively. This may tell you a great deal. I wish you luck.


----------



## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

Reluctant_Doubter said:


> @PrePaphaelite,
> 
> I think you have summed that up nicely.
> 
> ...


Even if you didn't have all those red flags present, I wouldn't feel good about the 'friend' situation you've described. Especially the fact that they're involved in her sport, which you're not a part of. Opportunities for lots of bonding without you there. I know, it can be the same at someone's place of employment, but this seems different. They're all passionate about one thing, with lots of travel without spouses....

Edit: By the way, count me in for another vote for using a couple of VARs. Too difficult for you to find texts, emails, etc.


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

bryanp said:


> You could always suggest that these accumulation of events has given you great concern and unease. In order for you to feel secure you would like to spend $500 to have a short polygraph done. I think it would be very interesting to see her response.
> If she says absolutely then I think you probably would not need to do it. On the other hand, watch her verbal and non verbal signs if she reacts negatively. This may tell you a great deal. I wish you luck.


I will certainly keep that up my sleeve. If I do follow that route and she agrees, I will willingly submit to the test too - what is good for the goose is good for the gander and I have nothing to hide. Seems fair.


----------



## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

what sport does your wife play, and at what level, since it is involving her with so many men, and how much of her talk back and forth with them, in any way shape or form, actually involves the sport itself, and the participation therein---and how much of her conversations with these other men---does NOT have anything to do with the sport she is involved in

Do you in your own mind think that possibly she is having/working toward an exit A---since that is basically what she was involved in with you, the first time around, for you


----------



## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

This is an excellent idea. You are willing to take one also. This would make it almost impossible for her to say no unless she was in fact lying to you previously. This is a great idea.


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

I won't identify the sport - it lends plausible deniability should she find this thread. A little anyway.

I have no idea what talk she has with her male friends. I do not (yet) have her Facebook account and any voice conversation is either direct, via Skype or via her office phone. (The VAR will help with two out of three).

Could she be planning and delaying in order to make an exit? Yes - quite possibly, though I think she will try to manage this until your youngest leaves for college (less than 2 years). Neither she nor I would want to disrupt our kids at a crucial time in their high school lives. Our oldest has noted her behavior changes too and mentioned it in private conversation with me.


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

Oh dear. Acting like nothing is up is proving very difficult for me.

My wife is away this weekend - family event and it is all above board (trust me on this - I'm getting the independent reports on her and a trusted relative is sharing her hotel room). Anyway, she rang me yesterday morning, but when I answered the phone she was in conversation with somebody in the background. In other words, while the phone was ringing she was talking elsewhere.

Of course this is such a minor thing and no big deal (as is totally irrelevant to any suspected infidelity) - but one of our issues recently and a small thing within the potentially big issues, has been her lack of manners when on the telephone to me. For me, when you call somebody, you wait for them to answer and then you talk to them. To have them answer and then wait while you conduct a conversation with somebody else in the room is just rude.

Inconsequential I know - but because of our recent "discussions" about her telephone manners, it is a trigger for me.

Anyway - it triggered me. While she finished her conversation elsewhere - I talked loudly down the phone saying that she was obviously busy and should call me again when she is finished. I then hung up on her.

She called back and was a mix of defensive and aggressive at me having hung up on her.

Anyway - the point is I lost it - and I am trying so hard to keep up appearances and make her believe I have bought all of her explanations.

Man - this is so hard when emotions are involved.


----------



## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

could it be that your own experience in cheating on your first wife has something to do with suspecting your current wife- that the same could be done to you?


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Please don't take thus the wrong way but you sound almost sorry that she wasn't cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

@cledus_snow. Perhaps - though you do not know and I will not share the details of that other than what is already said in this thread. Suffice to say that when I eventually started and affair near the formal end of my fist marriage (with my current wife), it was after years of me trying to save that first marriage, while my first wife abandoned it. The marriage was over before I ever started the affair and both sides knew it. I may even have been the victim of infidelity first.

@MattMatt - not sure what you mean (and no offence is ever taken when one chooses to post on a forum such as this). My wife's fidelity remains in doubt, and I am undergoing the slow and patient process of seeking evidence or, through lack of evidence, gaining comfort that she is telling me the (somewhat incredible) truth.

Should I eventually become convinced that she has been truthful, I will be very happy - but she still needs to correct the behaviors that resulted in the doubt.

My losing it over a small incident of rudeness has nothing to do with her fidelity but everything to do with my tender emotions right now - which runs counter to the need for me to lay low and have her assume that all is well again in our relationship.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Things doesn't appear to be exactly "right" but it's difficult to say at this point just how "wrong" things actually are.

You might considering moving this to the Private section once you have enough posts (around 30, maybe a few more, as I recall). Random viewers (or posters with less than the required number of posts) can't view that section.

Just a thought.


----------



## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

i say trust your gut. 


all you can do is sit and wait. the VAR is a good option. 

if there is some type of "inappropriate" behavior going on, it's a safe bet the evidence might be hidden on her company issued devices..... those that you don't have access to. i mean, you did say she was tech savy.


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

check your pm


----------



## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

Something is bothering me what you wrote in a previous post in that you told your wife even if she has cheated; you would still forgive her and work on recovery. I guess I am a cynic but to me you are in fact telling her that she actually has a free pass to cheat on you in the future because you have already stated that you would forgive her if she did indeed cheat on you. I believe this is a terrible message that you are sending her. Am I wrong?


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you not used the VARS yet? The pen on this page I have linked has been used by several people and they say it is great. You can put it in her purse and should be unnoticeable. It also works as a pen if she tries to use it.

If she uses her own car get a separate Gps unit. Someone here bought one at radio shack and they are also available at brickstone.You can see where someone is going as they are driving.

If something is going on locally it won't take long for a var to catch.

If she uses an iphone you can probably get the deleted messages.

Have you checked her apps to see if any of them have text messageing?


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

bryanp

Yes - I believe I made a mistake when I made that statement to her. I am not experienced in the ways of reacting to a suspected infidelity. Naively, I think I was trying to elicit a confession so we could move on to a reconciliation.

I wish I hadn't said it - but I did, and I must live with the consequences.


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks chapparal,

Yes - the VAR will be in place shortly and I'm working on the GPS options.


----------



## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

Does she leave her panties lying around? If so, check them. If she's late like you suggest sometimes, there could be evidence on them, assuming that you haven't had sex with her in the last 72 hours or so.


----------



## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Reluctant_Doubter said:


> Oh dear. Acting like nothing is up is proving very difficult for me.
> 
> My wife is away this weekend - family event and it is all above board (trust me on this - I'm getting the independent reports on her and a trusted relative is sharing her hotel room). Anyway, she rang me yesterday morning, but when I answered the phone she was in conversation with somebody in the background. In other words, while the phone was ringing she was talking elsewhere.
> 
> ...


This is how much she doesn't respect you. Take it like this..would you call say a department store or maybe a busy switchboard, before they answered start a conversation and continue that conversation after they answered expecting them to wait until you finished...what do you think happens? They'll put the phone down on you.

It's about respect, she made the call, you answer and SHE MAKES YOU WAIT until she is ready to talk to you. Communication is important but what it says is, you are not important enough for me to cut this conversation, you will wait until I finish this conversation then we can talk. Fact is you probably have communicated this to her in the past that you dont like it AND SHE STILL DOES IT..a) Because she either doesn't care what you think or b) Because it pisses you off
or c)It strokes her ego to have these little victories.

a,b or c...Doesn't matter. Little things lead to bigger things. You are fighting her instead of working together to repair this marriage. Not good for you.


----------



## arked (Mar 2, 2013)

Trust your gut. I think you may have a problem.


----------



## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

BobSimmons said:


> This is how much she doesn't respect you.... Not good for you.


Nail, head, direct hit.

Thank you for your post. That is exactly as I see it.


----------



## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

I can't see that I should be judging my wife's behavior today on the basis of behaviors over 20 years go when she was single. 



Because, as you said, she cheated with a married man (you).


----------



## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

Reluctant_Doubter said:


> Nail, head, direct hit.
> 
> Thank you for your post. That is exactly as I see it.


Your wife is drifting away from you and basically ignoring you from what I can see. She's put you on the shelf...taken you for granted in other words, and is now happily going about her life as she pleases.

She may or may not be having an affair, but she sure doesn't show much love or respect to you!

Oh, and if she hasn't met someone in her socializing already that she really likes, it's only a matter of time. Then be prepared for the "well, we drifted apart" as the reason for her filing for a divorce.

The bottom line is, she obviously prefers her time with others to spending time with you. Even if you don't find evidence of an A, it's a serious issue in your marriage that she apparently is not paying any attention to.


----------

