# Is it always the man’s fault?



## RDJ

No, not always, (Yes, there are plenty of women that will never take care of their side of the street. If that’s truly the case and you have been and done all a good man can. Then simply let her go!) But in my opinion, it’s the man’s responsibility to inspire the best from a woman. It is his responsibility to bring out the best in his wife, spiritually, emotionally, and sexually.

Why doesn’t the woman have to take responsibility for her side of the marriage?

She does!

But in my opinion, in most cases, it’s the man that inspires her to want to. It’s the man that brings out the best or the worst in the marriage.

Seriously, how many men complain that their wife is incapable of having a mutually happy, sexual marriage? Yet after they divorce (sometimes before) she ends up with a man that she is all of these things with?

Did she all of a sudden change? 

Yes she did. Why?

Because this man knew how to inspire her to be the entire woman she wanted to be, and always was.

Most likely the man that she b!tched at, complained too, held back on, and did everything she could to get him to listen, understand, and change. Never heard her, didn’t care, or thought he could do and be whatever he wanted. He did not need to change, he just married a b!tch!

I have worked with many men in sexless marriages over the last several years who thought their wife could not be loving, affectionate, or sexual (myself included). Most of who were wrong. A few of their women had to do so with another man. But many of these men learned to change themselves to change their wife (again, myself included).

You need to be a strong, masculine man (No wussies allowed). But you also best know how to understand a woman’s needs and how to fulfill them. When you do, she just might be sexually attracted to you again.


Agree or disagree??


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## RandomDude

> But in my opinion, it’s the man’s responsibility to inspire the best from a woman. It is his responsibility to bring out the best in his wife, spiritually, emotionally, and sexually.


My father used to teach me responsibility in this at least, he told me that once I'm grown up, that I can achieve whatever I wanted to, but what I have will come with responsibility. However, that the reverse is also true, to accept responsibility for your mistakes, will give you the power to change it.


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## BigBadWolf

RDJ said:


> No, not always, (Yes, there are plenty of women that will never take care of their side of the street. If that’s truly the case and you have been and done all a good man can. Then simply let her go!) But in my opinion, it’s the man’s responsibility to inspire the best from a woman. It is his responsibility to bring out the best in his wife, spiritually, emotionally, and sexually.
> 
> Why doesn’t the woman have to take responsibility for her side of the marriage?
> 
> She does!
> 
> But in my opinion, in most cases, it’s the man that inspires her to want to. It’s the man that brings out the best or the worst in the marriage.
> 
> Seriously, how many men complain that their wife is incapable of having a mutually happy, sexual marriage? Yet after they divorce (sometimes before) she ends up with a man that she is all of these things with?
> 
> Did she all of a sudden change?
> 
> Yes she did. Why?
> 
> Because this man knew how to inspire her to be the entire woman she wanted to be, and always was.
> 
> Most likely the man that she b!tched at, complained too, held back on, and did everything she could to get him to listen, understand, and change. Never heard her, didn’t care, or thought he could do and be whatever he wanted. He did not need to change, he just married a b!tch!
> 
> I have worked with many men in sexless marriages over the last several years who thought their wife could not be loving, affectionate, or sexual (myself included). Most of who were wrong. A few of their women had to do so with another man. But many of these men learned to change themselves to change their wife (again, myself included).
> 
> You need to be a strong, masculine man (No wussies allowed). But you also best know how to understand a woman’s needs and how to fulfill them. When you do, she just might be sexually attracted to you again.
> 
> 
> Agree or disagree??


100 percent correct (at least in a functioning or potential functioning relationship*) 

(The reality is, both the man and woman will inspire each other, but each in their own way.)

But as a man, and writing and giving advice to other men, it is IMPERATIVE that your points are understood to the letter.

Any man sitting back, waiting for his woman to (fill in the blank), is by default falling into a mother/child mentality, and we should all know by now what that will do to kill respect AND sexual attraction WITHOUT FAIL.





*Of course the disclaimer, bad behavior is bad behavior, and if a woman is prone to being a cheater, or a liar, or any number of other grievous behaviors that have irreparably harmed the marriage, then it is the cold reality that she should own the consequences to her behavior. And as you said in your OP, "just let her go" is appropriate indeed.


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## okeydokie

are you suggesting that men lead and women follow?


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## chillymorn

another take on this might be in a new relationship theres the newness stage where the woman tries harder to catch the man and then when hes caught or after the honeymoon stage wheres off the real women emerges.


and she will slip back to her old self.


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## Wheels65

> another take on this might be in a new relationship theres the newness stage where the woman tries harder to catch the man and then when hes caught or after the honeymoon stage wheres off the real women emerges.


I think this is true of both men and women...while you are dating it can often be "this is who I am not"...


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

RDJ said:


> No, not always, (Yes, there are plenty of women that will never take care of their side of the street. If that’s truly the case and you have been and done all a good man can. Then simply let her go!) But in my opinion, it’s the man’s responsibility to inspire the best from a woman. It is his responsibility to bring out the best in his wife, spiritually, emotionally, and sexually.
> 
> Why doesn’t the woman have to take responsibility for her side of the marriage?
> 
> She does!
> 
> But in my opinion, in most cases, it’s the man that inspires her to want to. It’s the man that brings out the best or the worst in the marriage.
> 
> Seriously, how many men complain that their wife is incapable of having a mutually happy, sexual marriage? Yet after they divorce (sometimes before) she ends up with a man that she is all of these things with?
> 
> Did she all of a sudden change?
> 
> Yes she did. Why?
> 
> Because this man knew how to inspire her to be the entire woman she wanted to be, and always was.
> 
> Most likely the man that she b!tched at, complained too, held back on, and did everything she could to get him to listen, understand, and change. Never heard her, didn’t care, or thought he could do and be whatever he wanted. He did not need to change, he just married a b!tch!
> 
> I have worked with many men in sexless marriages over the last several years who thought their wife could not be loving, affectionate, or sexual (myself included). Most of who were wrong. A few of their women had to do so with another man. But many of these men learned to change themselves to change their wife (again, myself included).
> 
> You need to be a strong, masculine man (No wussies allowed). But you also best know how to understand a woman’s needs and how to fulfill them. When you do, she just might be sexually attracted to you again.
> 
> 
> Agree or disagree??


WTF? Why is all about her needs all the time? A marriage is supposed to be 50/50, many of us here gave our wives no serious reasons for complaints, spent 20+ years giving them everything they wanted within our means. The reward for this? they hit about 40 and have an affair with some guy they met on Facebook with two or three broken marriages behind him. 

Many of these women are going through a mid life crisis that has nothing to do with hubby. A statement of "I'm not happy" the day they leave after a couple of weeks of odd behavior they won't explain when asked is about all the warning some of us get. So I call bull on this one.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

chillymorn said:


> another take on this might be in a new relationship theres the newness stage where the woman tries harder to catch the man and then when hes caught or after the honeymoon stage wheres off the real women emerges.
> 
> 
> and she will slip back to her old self.


Some truth to this, some women "morph" to the man's interests to snag him. My stbxw very quickly morphed to the OM's interests, like watching football and hanging out in sports bars. In 24 years she never watched sports on tv, often said it was a " Bunch of losers living their lives through TV', and hated going out to bars.


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## Acorn

RDJ said:


> But in my opinion, in most cases, it’s the man that inspires her to want to. It’s the man that brings out the best or the worst in the marriage.


RDJ I agree with most of your post, but I disagree with you on this point. I have seen way too many marriages and have heard way too many stories about deplorable behavior by wives to unilaterally state that men bring out the worst in marriage. 

I also think that stating men bring out the best in marriage shortchanges those women that work very hard to be the best wife they can be.

In my opinion, both spouses should be inspiring themselves primarily to be the best person they can be... and if they are doing that, they will inspire each other.


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## RDJ

I have spent a lot of time talking to various men about the subject of a sexless marriage. For many of them, their frustration had grown to the point that they were ready to give up on the whole idea of marriage. These men had committed themselves to one person. When that person stopped meeting their needs, they were stuck. Their needs were not being met within the marriage, and to go outside the marriage would lead to all kinds of problems that they did not want to face such as divorce and a broken home for the children.

I have to admit, during times of struggle in my marriage, I sometimes slipped into that mind set as well. More than once I allowed myself to day dream about having an affair so that my sexual needs could be met without blowing my family apart. I’m sure my wife has had the same thoughts, in fact, I’m sure we all have. Thankfully for my marriage, I never followed through on this. I chose to take a different path.

I grew through three important stages of being a man in order to arrive at the happy place I am in today. I would like to share these insights with others who may be stuck on the same issues that I once had. Perhaps it will help some of you to find the way forward.

The first stage was the “Selfish Stage”. In this stage, we are primarily concerned with our own needs, and how to have those needs met. We spend our time and money however we choose. We pursue whatever we want to have in our life. 

The primary concern of a man in this stage is to be free to indulge himself however he wants to, whenever he wants to. Anything that impedes this freedom is seen as threat and dealt with as such.

Most men can go along in this stage quite happily for a long time. 

As long as they have money to buy the things they want, and women who are willing to meet his sexual needs, they are content. 
I once saw a movie in which a couple is getting married. As the minister is completing the service he looks at the groom and says “I now sentence you to a life of servitude. Go forth and be miserable. Your freedom is over.” This was followed by a record scratching sound and the groom thinks to himself “My God, what have I done.”

To many men, marriage really does look like the end of freedom. All of a sudden they are NOT free to spend their time and money however they choose. Their wife may not agree that spending two hours a day at the gym is a good use of time. She might not agree that buying a 52 inch TV is the best use of your tax refund.

For most men, marriage is the beginning for the first stage in their growth. Being married forces them to rethink how they deal with the world. If they decide to have children, the process becomes greatly accelerated. Kids will limit their personal freedoms to an even larger extent. Many men respond to this by becoming either whiny, or demanding. They become selfish about their needs and this really turns their wife off. Many marriages fall into a sexless phase at this point simply because the man is acting like a child, and the woman does not want to have sex with a man-child.

It is sad, but also true, that many marriages suffer shortly after they enter the small kids phase. The reason for this is that many men will reach a point shortly after having kids where they feel neglected, unwanted, unsexed, and completely at the mercy of their wife. Often to a point that they feel trapped, and so limited by their life as a husband and father that they feel an overwhelming need to escape. They feel the need to break free from all the restrictions and get back to a state in which they are free to do whatever they want again.

Marriage is an engine for personal growth. Children are an even more powerful engine for personal growth. It is simply not possible for a man to be married with kids, and continue being a first stage male. You cannot have strong relationships with a wife and children, and still be free to do whatever you want. In order to be happy in the domestic life, you have to grow to stage two.

Stage two is what I like to call the “Diplomatic” stage of development. In this stage you have come to understand that it is not possible to maintain all of your personal freedoms within the marriage. Your wife has needs as well, and in order for the marriage to be healthy, you need to ensure that both of your needs are being met.

In stage two, often men stop demanding to have their own way, and instead start negotiating peaceful agreements with their wife. They make deals about who gets to go out, and who stays home with the kids. They make deals about how to spend their money. If I get my new TV, you can have the vacation to Hawaii that you want. Many couples will even negotiate sex. If you agree to have sex with me on Tuesdays and Saturdays, I will leave you alone on the other nights of the week.

Many married couples will grow into a second stage marriage and then stay there. They manage to find a balance that is acceptable to both of them, and they make it work. However, there are flaws in this system. It sounds good in theory, but there are problems that can arise.

The first possibility is that eventually the couple will be faced with an obstacle that they cannot negotiate in a mutually acceptable way. Perhaps something happens that makes it impossible for them to continue with agreed patterns. Each digs in their heels and the negotiated peace starts to fall apart. They are back in stage one again.

The other possibility is that one of them simply gets tired of being in a marriage that is so predictable and uninspired. They want spontaneity and excitement in their life again. This typically happens when the children are getting older and leaving home. A couple, who now have only each other for company, suddenly find that their marriage has been propped up by routines and schedules for so long that they do not know what to do with each other now.

Stage one marriages become sexless because someone (usually the man) becomes selfish about getting his own needs met and undermines the relationship with his needy and manipulative behavior. Stage two marriages become sexless because someone (usually the woman) decides that the marriage has lost all passion and excitement. It no longer inspires her to feel loved. They negotiated all of the passion out in favor of peaceful co-existence, and now she wants the passion back.

The only way for a marriage to be truly happy, exciting, passionate and fulfilling over the long haul is for the relationship to eventually grow again into stage three.

Stage three is what I call the “balanced” stage. In stage three, a man decides that it is perfectly OK to be a masculine man. He reignites his own masculinity and takes charge of his marriage relationship. He makes a conscious effort to build an exciting and romantic life for both himself and his wife. He does NOT do this out of a selfish desire to extract anything from his wife. He does this in order to give her the love and strength that she needs as a woman.

In stage three, a woman decides that it is perfectly OK to be a feminine woman. She chooses to trust her husband, and allow him to take the lead in building an exciting life for both of them. She opens her heart to him, and freely shares her body with him NOT because she wants to manipulate or control him. She does it because they have mutual love, honor, and respect for each other. 

Stage three couples have mutual boundaries, freedoms, and do what is best for the marriage as a whole. They communicate, they understand each other’s needs and they allow each other the freedom to be who they are. They accept that all will never be perfect.

When a couple reaches stage three, real magic happens. They start a virtuous cycle that feeds off of itself and becomes stronger and stronger over time. The more that he becomes confident in offering the gifts of his love and strength, the more she opens up to accept them fully. The more time they spend together, the more fun they have. The more often they make love, the deeper and more satisfying it becomes for both of them. They settle into to the kind of loving and trusting relationship that God intended for all people. She completely trusts his masculinity and loves him for it. He completely adores her femininity and loves her for it.

Again, the man takes the lead. If his wife cannot commit to changing herself once he does so, if she is beyond putting the effort into a mutually happy stage three marriage. Let her go, and find yourself a woman that appreciates you for the man you are.


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## Conrad

*When a couple reaches stage three, real magic happens. They start a virtuous cycle that feeds off of itself and becomes stronger and stronger over time. The more that he becomes confident in offering the gifts of his love and strength, the more she opens up to accept them fully. The more time they spend together, the more fun they have. The more often they make love, the deeper and more satisfying it becomes for both of them. They settle into to the kind of loving and trusting relationship that God intended for all people. She completely trusts his masculinity and loves him for it. He completely adores her femininity and loves her for it.

Again, the man takes the lead. If his wife cannot commit to changing herself once he does so, if she is beyond putting the effort into a mutually happy stage three marriage. Let her go, and find yourself a woman that appreciates you for the man you are. *

RDJ,

I don't think this can be said better.

It's extraordinarily sad that child abuse creates a group of people that have so much difficulty in the transition to stage 3.

They have everything to gain - and nothing to lose - if they simply concentrate on letting go of their anger.

Story after story on this board indicates that hill is too tall for many to climb. Yet, the special ones will - and do.


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## Havesomethingtosay

Now I am not being negative, but I need to ask.... RDJ are you a family therapist or expert in the field? You have stated that you have *"worked with many men in sexless marriages over the last # of years on this"*, and I thought you were just another shmuck like me spouting his mouth off on TAM....

What you say sounds exactly like the blueprint of your marriage. Congratulations that it is working, but not everyone is you (or mem11363 another example).

Again you have made the premise that it all falls on the husband to make things right and who screwed up in the first place.

I especially like where you state women will find another husband and all will be great. Isn't this a pattern that manifests itself over and over in all new relationships. From your OP, it will only be a matter of time before husband 2 screws up (unless of course no new kids and scads and money to live every dream). Funny how money too seems a central theme in happiness.


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## jekyllnhyde

RDJ said:


> I have spent a lot of time talking to various men about the subject of a sexless marriage. For many of them, their frustration had grown to the point that they were ready to give up on the whole idea of marriage. These men had committed themselves to one person. When that person stopped meeting their needs, they were stuck. Their needs were not being met within the marriage, and to go outside the marriage would lead to all kinds of problems that they did not want to face such as divorce and a broken home for the children.
> 
> I have to admit, during times of struggle in my marriage, I sometimes slipped into that mind set as well. More than once I allowed myself to day dream about having an affair so that my sexual needs could be met without blowing my family apart. I’m sure my wife has had the same thoughts, in fact, I’m sure we all have. Thankfully for my marriage, I never followed through on this. I chose to take a different path.
> 
> I grew through three important stages of being a man in order to arrive at the happy place I am in today. I would like to share these insights with others who may be stuck on the same issues that I once had. Perhaps it will help some of you to find the way forward.
> 
> The first stage was the “Selfish Stage”. In this stage, we are primarily concerned with our own needs, and how to have those needs met. We spend our time and money however we choose. We pursue whatever we want to have in our life.
> 
> The primary concern of a man in this stage is to be free to indulge himself however he wants to, whenever he wants to. Anything that impedes this freedom is seen as threat and dealt with as such.
> 
> Most men can go along in this stage quite happily for a long time.
> 
> As long as they have money to buy the things they want, and women who are willing to meet his sexual needs, they are content.
> I once saw a movie in which a couple is getting married. As the minister is completing the service he looks at the groom and says “I now sentence you to a life of servitude. Go forth and be miserable. Your freedom is over.” This was followed by a record scratching sound and the groom thinks to himself “My God, what have I done.”
> 
> To many men, marriage really does look like the end of freedom. All of a sudden they are NOT free to spend their time and money however they choose. Their wife may not agree that spending two hours a day at the gym is a good use of time. She might not agree that buying a 52 inch TV is the best use of your tax refund.
> 
> For most men, marriage is the beginning for the first stage in their growth. Being married forces them to rethink how they deal with the world. If they decide to have children, the process becomes greatly accelerated. Kids will limit their personal freedoms to an even larger extent. Many men respond to this by becoming either whiny, or demanding. They become selfish about their needs and this really turns their wife off. Many marriages fall into a sexless phase at this point simply because the man is acting like a child, and the woman does not want to have sex with a man-child.
> 
> It is sad, but also true, that many marriages suffer shortly after they enter the small kids phase. The reason for this is that many men will reach a point shortly after having kids where they feel neglected, unwanted, unsexed, and completely at the mercy of their wife. Often to a point that they feel trapped, and so limited by their life as a husband and father that they feel an overwhelming need to escape. They feel the need to break free from all the restrictions and get back to a state in which they are free to do whatever they want again.
> 
> Marriage is an engine for personal growth. Children are an even more powerful engine for personal growth. It is simply not possible for a man to be married with kids, and continue being a first stage male. You cannot have strong relationships with a wife and children, and still be free to do whatever you want. In order to be happy in the domestic life, you have to grow to stage two.
> 
> Stage two is what I like to call the “Diplomatic” stage of development. In this stage you have come to understand that it is not possible to maintain all of your personal freedoms within the marriage. Your wife has needs as well, and in order for the marriage to be healthy, you need to ensure that both of your needs are being met.
> 
> In stage two, often men stop demanding to have their own way, and instead start negotiating peaceful agreements with their wife. They make deals about who gets to go out, and who stays home with the kids. They make deals about how to spend their money. If I get my new TV, you can have the vacation to Hawaii that you want. Many couples will even negotiate sex. If you agree to have sex with me on Tuesdays and Saturdays, I will leave you alone on the other nights of the week.
> 
> Many married couples will grow into a second stage marriage and then stay there. They manage to find a balance that is acceptable to both of them, and they make it work. However, there are flaws in this system. It sounds good in theory, but there are problems that can arise.
> 
> The first possibility is that eventually the couple will be faced with an obstacle that they cannot negotiate in a mutually acceptable way. Perhaps something happens that makes it impossible for them to continue with agreed patterns. Each digs in their heels and the negotiated peace starts to fall apart. They are back in stage one again.
> 
> The other possibility is that one of them simply gets tired of being in a marriage that is so predictable and uninspired. They want spontaneity and excitement in their life again. This typically happens when the children are getting older and leaving home. A couple, who now have only each other for company, suddenly find that their marriage has been propped up by routines and schedules for so long that they do not know what to do with each other now.
> 
> Stage one marriages become sexless because someone (usually the man) becomes selfish about getting his own needs met and undermines the relationship with his needy and manipulative behavior. Stage two marriages become sexless because someone (usually the woman) decides that the marriage has lost all passion and excitement. It no longer inspires her to feel loved. They negotiated all of the passion out in favor of peaceful co-existence, and now she wants the passion back.
> 
> The only way for a marriage to be truly happy, exciting, passionate and fulfilling over the long haul is for the relationship to eventually grow again into stage three.
> 
> Stage three is what I call the “balanced” stage. In stage three, a man decides that it is perfectly OK to be a masculine man. He reignites his own masculinity and takes charge of his marriage relationship. He makes a conscious effort to build an exciting and romantic life for both himself and his wife. He does NOT do this out of a selfish desire to extract anything from his wife. He does this in order to give her the love and strength that she needs as a woman.
> 
> In stage three, a woman decides that it is perfectly OK to be a feminine woman. She chooses to trust her husband, and allow him to take the lead in building an exciting life for both of them. She opens her heart to him, and freely shares her body with him NOT because she wants to manipulate or control him. She does it because they have mutual love, honor, and respect for each other.
> 
> Stage three couples have mutual boundaries, freedoms, and do what is best for the marriage as a whole. They communicate, they understand each other’s needs and they allow each other the freedom to be who they are. They accept that all will never be perfect.
> 
> When a couple reaches stage three, real magic happens. They start a virtuous cycle that feeds off of itself and becomes stronger and stronger over time. The more that he becomes confident in offering the gifts of his love and strength, the more she opens up to accept them fully. The more time they spend together, the more fun they have. The more often they make love, the deeper and more satisfying it becomes for both of them. They settle into to the kind of loving and trusting relationship that God intended for all people. She completely trusts his masculinity and loves him for it. He completely adores her femininity and loves her for it.
> 
> Again, the man takes the lead. If his wife cannot commit to changing herself once he does so, if she is beyond putting the effort into a mutually happy stage three marriage. Let her go, and find yourself a woman that appreciates you for the man you are.



Wow, talk about words of wisdom....

This is my first post on this forum, so I'd like to give you a little backround. I'm in my second marriage to a woman who is a few yeas older than I. We knew each other when we were each still married to our exes. We worked together for several years and hardly even talked, yet after my divorce we became friends. She had a lot of issues with her marriage, and I was her shoulder to cry on. To be honest, my motives were somewhat less than truly honorable. We knew each other's secrets, and I had more than my share of skeletons. We fell in love and eventually she left her husband of 18 years to move in with me.

Things went well for a while, considering my problems with alcohol and porn. There were times when I was definitely not a nice guy, I did not treat her right. I expected her to perform in the bedroom the way the porn stars did. So YES we had problems and we were working on them.

I think the current problem began when I started working nights and weekends at a new job. It seemed like we had no private time together, no time for sex. I was getting up to go to work while she was getting ready for bed. I was home and awake during the day, and sometimes I'd wait for her to come home so she could "tuck me in".

Problem was, she almost never did.

Years went by with my pleading at times, to come to bed when she comes home, or come in to wake me a little early or whatever it takes for us to have a little personal time. It was like pulling teeth to get her into the bedroom, and that always left me angry rather than satisfied. I didn't get married and give up everything so I could hope to get lucky once in a while.

After quitting drinking, the porn and wanking just didn't do it for me anymore, and I started looking for a special friend. I found one in the rooms and began a year long affair. When I was found out, in 2008, I told my wife she was never there for me, when of course she was, but I never felt like she really wanted me, and that was MY problem. 

Anyway, now we're still together, we are nearly sexless. I'm still not drinking, nor am I looking at porn or masturbating. I'm being treated for OCD and have meds that get me through the hard times. My wife forgives me, but she is still very damaged. She brings up the affair almost daily, an I can't even compliment her or treat her like a lady without her asking "did you say that to her, did you treat her that way?"

When I'm in a bad place, such as right now, I want to ask her if it would have killed her to "tuck me in" like I so many times asked her to do. I can't really say for sure if that would have prevented me from cheating, but my therapist seems to agree that when the drinking stopped and my mind cleared up, the sexual problems I was dealing with could have felt a lot worse, leaving me to feel I had no other choice.

Anyway a question like that would only bring in more fighting. I love her and want to make it work, but life is too short to fight everyday, and I think if she realized on her own that she had a part in what I did, she might get over it sooner.....


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## exitor98

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> WTF? Why is all about her needs all the time? A marriage is supposed to be 50/50, many of us here gave our wives no serious reasons for complaints, spent 20+ years giving them everything they wanted within our means. The reward for this? they hit about 40 and have an affair with some guy they met on Facebook with two or three broken marriages behind him.
> 
> Many of these women are going through a mid life crisis that has nothing to do with hubby. A statement of "I'm not happy" the day they leave after a couple of weeks of odd behavior they won't explain when asked is about all the warning some of us get. So I call bull on this one.


I'm inclined to concur on the one. The bottom line is that if a woman can get a better deal with another man they
will go for it. That "better deal" can include (but isn't limited to) a bigger man part, a better body, bigger net worth,etc. It really doesn't matter how well her husband treated her. For a woman a husband is just a means to an end. 
Of course the same could be said for men but it usually isn't for the same reason.

And if a man has to "inspire a woman" to because a wife then she doesn't care about being one in the first place. She's a grown woman; not a child that has to molded and taught.

I agree about about the man taking the lead for some things. But a marriage is a 50/50 operation and the wife can't be the one that does all the taking and neither can the man.

Are women just inherently untrustworthy? Not always. It has a lot to do with how they're raised. Some women are just selfish as are some men. 

And as far as a man being a ***** for showing feelings that's a big ole pile of horse****. If you cry out of frustration then that's silly. But if you don't cry when your child is born or you lose a loved one then you a screw loose. Having a **** and balls doesn't mean you don't have a heart.


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## Mavash.

Lots of good points here so I won't repeat what has already been said. Here are my thoughts on this.

First I think its unfair to put all this on the men (I'm female). Inspiration will only get you so far if the other person isn't willing to do any work. I personally have managed to inspire MY husband to be a better man but I also recognize he is committed to our marriage and wants it to be better just as much as I do. It takes two to make a marriage work.

Secondly even if you have two people willing to work on the marriage my observation is many couples quit before they ever reach stage 3. I've been married 20 years and it wasn't all great. In fact many of those years flat out sucked but we refused to give up. We are just now reaping the rewards of our efforts.  

Aside from my marriage I personally know couples that have made it to stage 3 and without exception it took over a decade or longer to get there. There are no shortcuts. You can't skip the earlier stages and go straight to the last one. It doesn't work that way. It's a process and one that must be earned.


----------



## LovesHerMan

I agree with the idea that a good marriage is a process. We don't just find our soulmate and ride off into the sunset. It does take both spouses wanting to bring out the best in each other.


----------



## FirstYearDown

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> WTF? Why is all about her needs all the time? A marriage is supposed to be 50/50, many of us here gave our wives no serious reasons for complaints, spent 20+ years giving them everything they wanted within our means. The reward for this? they hit about 40 and have an affair with some guy they met on Facebook with two or three broken marriages behind him.
> 
> Many of these women are going through a mid life crisis that has nothing to do with hubby. A statement of "I'm not happy" the day they leave after a couple of weeks of odd behavior they won't explain when asked is about all the warning some of us get. So I call bull on this one.


:iagree: All the blame cannot be placed on either gender.


----------



## Havesomethingtosay

FirstYearDown said:


> :iagree: All the blame cannot be placed on either gender.


But don't you understand that RDJ always blames it on the man.....

Some very good points and certainly do see where there are many who can learn from the post, but RDJ has a way of externalizing what happened in his marriage and claiming it as the norm.


----------



## FirstYearDown

I notice MANY forum members taking their experiences as facts, not just RDJ.

Our sex life is uncommonly wonderful, based on what I read here and learn from others.

It would be foolish of me to assume that EVERY married couple is like us.


----------



## Enchantment

RDJ said:


> When a couple reaches stage three, real magic happens. They start a virtuous cycle that feeds off of itself and becomes stronger and stronger over time. The more that he becomes confident in offering the gifts of his love and strength, the more she opens up to accept them fully. The more time they spend together, the more fun they have. The more often they make love, the deeper and more satisfying it becomes for both of them. They settle into to the kind of loving and trusting relationship that God intended for all people. She completely trusts his masculinity and loves him for it. He completely adores her femininity and loves her for it.
> 
> Again, the man takes the lead. If his wife cannot commit to changing herself once he does so, if she is beyond putting the effort into a mutually happy stage three marriage. Let her go, and find yourself a woman that appreciates you for the man you are.


:smthumbup:
Awesome, RDJ!

Being there for each other, inspiring each other ... nothing short of wonderful.

And while a man should take the lead in his own life and his marriage and inspire his wife, a wife should also take responsibility for her own life and her part in the marriage and support and inspire her husband.

I like when Martin Luther said: "Let the wife make the husband glad to come home, and let him make her sorry to see him leave."

I think that having a man that is worthy of her respect, worthy of her love, worthy of her support IS a wife's inspiration - it can pull her forward and upward and fill her up in so many ways. It is that way for me anyway.


----------



## RDJ

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Now I am not being negative, but I need to ask.... RDJ are you a family therapist or expert in the field? You have stated that you have *"worked with many men in sexless marriages over the last # of years on this"*, and I thought you were just another shmuck like me spouting his mouth off on TAM....
> 
> What you say sounds exactly like the blueprint of your marriage. Congratulations that it is working, but not everyone is you (or mem11363 another example).
> 
> Again you have made the premise that it all falls on the husband to make things right and who screwed up in the first place.
> 
> I especially like where you state women will find another husband and all will be great. Isn't this a pattern that manifests itself over and over in all new relationships. From your OP, it will only be a matter of time before husband 2 screws up (unless of course no new kids and scads and money to live every dream). Funny how money too seems a central theme in happiness.


No I'm not a counselor. I post my experiences, my thoughts, and things I have learned from other men, a mens program, and a private forum that has changed many marriages.

Program

I do not BLAME FAULT on men. I have written many posts on a 50/50 marriage. I do promote the man taking the lead and being the one to change first.

It is my opinion, I share it here just like every one else shares thiers.

You are free to agree or disagree. 

If my thoughts can help some one Great! If not thats fine too.


----------



## RDJ

Mavash. said:


> Aside from my marriage I personally know couples that have made it to stage 3 and without exception it took over a decade or longer to get there. There are no shortcuts. You can't skip the earlier stages and go straight to the last one. It doesn't work that way. It's a process and one that must be earned.


:iagree:


----------



## RDJ

Enchantment said:


> And while a man should take the lead in his own life and his marriage and inspire his wife, a wife should also take responsibility for her own life and her part in the marriage and support and inspire her husband.


:iagree:, and well said!


----------



## MEM2020

RDJ,
I find your posts to be constructive, positive and balanced. 

Some of the posters here seem generally angry and inclined to lash out. 




RDJ said:


> No I'm not a counselor. I post my experiences, my thoughts, and things I have learned from other men, a mens program, and a private forum that has changed many marriages.
> 
> Program
> 
> I do not BLAME FAULT on men. I have written many post on a 50/50 marriage. I do promote the man taking the lead and being the one to change first.
> 
> It is my opinion, I share it here just like every one else shares thiers.
> 
> You are free to agree or disagree.
> 
> If my thoughts can help some one Great! If not thats fine too.


----------



## Conrad

Jekyll,

You said she had issues in her prior marriage.

Tell us about them.

Do you know anything about her childhood?





jekyllnhyde said:


> Wow, talk about words of wisdom....
> 
> This is my first post on this forum, so I'd like to give you a little backround. I'm in my second marriage to a woman who is a few yeas older than I. We knew each other when we were each still married to our exes. We worked together for several years and hardly even talked, yet after my divorce we became friends. She had a lot of issues with her marriage, and I was her shoulder to cry on. To be honest, my motives were somewhat less than truly honorable. We knew each other's secrets, and I had more than my share of skeletons. We fell in love and eventually she left her husband of 18 years to move in with me.
> 
> Things went well for a while, considering my problems with alcohol and porn. There were times when I was definitely not a nice guy, I did not treat her right. I expected her to perform in the bedroom the way the porn stars did. So YES we had problems and we were working on them.
> 
> I think the current problem began when I started working nights and weekends at a new job. It seemed like we had no private time together, no time for sex. I was getting up to go to work while she was getting ready for bed. I was home and awake during the day, and sometimes I'd wait for her to come home so she could "tuck me in".
> 
> Problem was, she almost never did.
> 
> Years went by with my pleading at times, to come to bed when she comes home, or come in to wake me a little early or whatever it takes for us to have a little personal time. It was like pulling teeth to get her into the bedroom, and that always left me angry rather than satisfied. I didn't get married and give up everything so I could hope to get lucky once in a while.
> 
> After quitting drinking, the porn and wanking just didn't do it for me anymore, and I started looking for a special friend. I found one in the rooms and began a year long affair. When I was found out, in 2008, I told my wife she was never there for me, when of course she was, but I never felt like she really wanted me, and that was MY problem.
> 
> Anyway, now we're still together, we are nearly sexless. I'm still not drinking, nor am I looking at porn or masturbating. I'm being treated for OCD and have meds that get me through the hard times. My wife forgives me, but she is still very damaged. She brings up the affair almost daily, an I can't even compliment her or treat her like a lady without her asking "did you say that to her, did you treat her that way?"
> 
> When I'm in a bad place, such as right now, I want to ask her if it would have killed her to "tuck me in" like I so many times asked her to do. I can't really say for sure if that would have prevented me from cheating, but my therapist seems to agree that when the drinking stopped and my mind cleared up, the sexual problems I was dealing with could have felt a lot worse, leaving me to feel I had no other choice.
> 
> Anyway a question like that would only bring in more fighting. I love her and want to make it work, but life is too short to fight everyday, and I think if she realized on her own that she had a part in what I did, she might get over it sooner.....


----------



## Conrad

MEM11363 said:


> RDJ,
> I find your posts to be constructive, positive and balanced.
> 
> Some of the posters here seem generally angry and inclined to lash out.


I've been trying to tone it down


----------



## RDJ

Havesomethingtosay said:


> But don't you understand that RDJ always blames it on the man.....



Yes I blame it on the man.

As a man you take responsibility for your marriage.

Your wife is only as b!tchy, angry, disrespectful, loveless, and sexless as YOU allow.

If a man does not have the balls to stand up and set the guidelines for what is and is not acceptable. Then he has no one to blame but himself.

It's all about mutual happiness. But if a woman will not take on her part of the marriage, then a man should take the lead. 

Regardless of who takes the blame, he has the ability to inspire change in himself and in her.

As I said, if he can't get her to do so then "let her go". If he can't do either, he has no right to complain, he creates his own misery.

So is the man to blame ? More than likely, YES!


----------



## morituri

The point is to become a better man - not to get sex from your wife - but to fulfill your potential as a man.


----------



## DTO

RDJ said:


> Your wife is only as b!tchy, angry, disrespectful, loveless, and sexless as YOU allow.


A question for the Oracle (that's you RDJ)

I agree that a lady cannot be b!tchy or disrespectful if there is not a guy around to be a target for the anger and aggression.

But how in the heck do you will your wife to love and and have sex with you regularly? I assume you aren't talking about rape or coercion, and you don't seem like the kind to issue an ultimatum like "have sex or move out" so then what?

Give one piece of advice that has a high likelihood of getting a refused husband sex from his wife in the next week, or that will cause a wife who is sex averse to suddenly do a 180 and worship at the altar of her husband's c*ck.


----------



## MEM2020

I am not going to speak for RDJ. But I will speak for myself on this point. If I bring my A game consistently - and at that point it is clear my W is not inclined to make the effort to have sex with me at a freqeuncy that I find acceptable, than I give her a choice. We can have some sort of open marriage, or we can part ways. 







DTO said:


> A question for the Oracle (that's you RDJ)
> 
> I agree that a lady cannot be b!tchy or disrespectful if there is not a guy around to be a target for the anger and aggression.
> 
> But how in the heck do you will your wife to love and and have sex with you regularly? I assume you aren't talking about rape or coercion, and you don't seem like the kind to issue an ultimatum like "have sex or move out" so then what?
> 
> Give one piece of advice that has a high likelihood of getting a refused husband sex from his wife in the next week, or that will cause a wife who is sex averse to suddenly do a 180 and worship at the altar of her husband's c*ck.


----------



## morituri

DTO said:


> Give one piece of advice that has a high likelihood of getting a refused husband sex from his wife in the next week, or that will cause a wife who is sex averse to suddenly do a 180 and worship at the altar of her husband's c*ck.


Leave a note for her saying

"Honey, you won't have to worry anymore about our sexless marriage. I'm having a hot sexual affair with another woman. I Love you so much, your husband D!ck".


----------



## DTO

RDJ said:


> Seriously, how many men complain that their wife is incapable of having a mutually happy, sexual marriage? Yet after they divorce (sometimes before) she ends up with a man that she is all of these things with?


Disagree with respect to this.

You seen to forget that of all the biases people can hold, sexual issues are the hardest to overcome and people will hold onto them just out of stubbornness. In such cases compatibility is the determining factor. My ex, for instance, is a once a month intercourse, lights-off type of person - absolutely no BJs, claims to not like receiving oral, almost zero manual stim. I am a 2-3x per week full sexual encounter type of person.

She said she wanted me but admitted she had not and assumed a sex drive would materialize after marriage. It did not and she could not cope, convincing herself that she was good (not just okay) and I was to blame. In fact, she cited my disappointment (I had stopped asking but refused to pamper her and pretend I was happy) as a primary driver in her decision to leave.

If you asked she would claim that she did everything reasonable to make the marriage work but I was simply unreasonable and drove her out. Now, she will probably hook up with some guy whose low drive matches hers (either naturally, or a guy with health issues) and will insist she is with a great lover who is also a gentleman and knows how to appreciate a lady of her quality.

See where I'm going with this? Any comments from you?


----------



## DTO

MEM11363 said:


> I am not going to speak for RDJ. But I will speak for myself on this point. If I bring my A game consistently - and at that point it is clear my W is not inclined to make the effort to have sex with me at a freqeuncy that I find acceptable, than I give her a choice. We can have some sort of open marriage, or we can part ways.


Mem, you've made my point. Any reasonable person would say this. But, RDJ would argue that we just were not capable enough to maximize the potential of the situation.

At least RDJ, in acknowledging that leaving is an option, is a bit better than the religious nuts who say that men need to conform to women and a bad sex life is never reason to leave - but not much.

And, if anyone doubts that such mean and women are out there, get a copy of "Every Man's Battle".


----------



## RDJ

DTO said:


> A question for the Oracle (that's you RDJ)
> 
> I agree that a lady cannot be b!tchy or disrespectful if there is not a guy around to be a target for the anger and aggression.
> 
> But how in the heck do you will your wife to love and and have sex with you regularly? I assume you aren't talking about rape or coercion, and you don't seem like the kind to issue an ultimatum like "have sex or move out" so then what?
> 
> Give one piece of advice that has a high likelihood of getting a refused husband sex from his wife in the next week, or that will cause a wife who is sex averse to suddenly do a 180 and worship at the altar of her husband's c*ck.


Assuming that it can be backed up, "I am a kind, loving, respectful, affectionate, SEXUAL man. I desire a kind, loving, respectful, affectionate, SEXUAL woman. I hoped that would be you, I hoped that we could have a *mutually happy marriage*. It's not too late for me, but if it is for you, then it's best for both of us to end this relationship. It's your choice?"

The "oracle" has spoken. You can take it from there.


----------



## Sawney Beane

This:


MEM11363 said:


> If I bring my A game consistently - and at that point it is clear my W is not inclined to make the effort to have sex with me at a freqeuncy that I find acceptable, than I give her a choice. We can have some sort of open marriage, or we can part ways.


;

This:


RDJ said:


> Assuming that it can be backed up, "I am a kind, loving, respectful, affectionate, SEXUAL man. I desire a kind, loving, respectful, affectionate, SEXUAL woman. I hoped that would be you, I hoped that we could have a *mutually happy marriage*. It's not too late for me, but if it is for you, then it's best for both of us to end this relationship. It's your choice?"


;

and This:


morituri said:


> Leave a note for her saying
> 
> "Honey, you won't have to worry anymore about our sexless marriage. I'm having a hot sexual affair with another woman. I Love you so much, your husband D!ck".


Might well clear the decks for you to start shagging someone else, on the grounds that she won't be part of your marriage any more, but none of these actually answer the _original question_:





DTO said:


> Give one piece of advice that has a high likelihood of getting a refused husband _*sex from his wife*_ in the next week, or that will cause a _*wife who is sex averse to suddenly do a 180*_ and worship at the altar of her husband's c*ck.


With all due respect guys, you are not answering that question. None of what you said has a "high likelihood" of getting a refused husband anything from his wife except a thick ear within a week.

DTO also said:



> ...how in the heck do you will your wife to love and and have sex with you regularly? I assume you aren't talking about rape or coercion, and you don't seem like the kind to issue an ultimatum like "have sex or move out" so then what?"


With respect, the suggestions above essentially ARE "have sex or get out of the way" ultimatums. Whether she moves out, you move out, or she accepts you have sex with someone else, this is an ultimatum.


----------



## RDJ

Thank You Sawney!

That was the point. If a man cannot inspire and lead his wife to a loving, sexual marriage. than he can let her go or live with it.

There is no silver bullet.


----------



## morituri

RDJ said:


> Thank You Sawney!
> 
> That was the point. If a man cannot inspire and lead his wife to a loving, sexual marriage. than he can let her go or live with it.
> 
> There is no silver bullet.


:iagree:

Even though I was being totally facetious with my last comment - the smiley face at the end - there is a grain of truth in it. 

Many women suddenly want to have sex with their husbands when they know he is sexually involved with another woman. I've seen this strange phenomenon over and over again with so many couples I've known in the past to realize that this is not an isolated event. 

It is as though a bucket of cold water had been thrown in the sleeping wives faces which caused them to finally wake up that the men they long ago de-sexualized in their minds are after all, sexual beings with the need for physical intimacy.

*But let there be no mistake. There is NO WAY that I condone ANY husband living in a sexless marriage to go out an have an affair. That is simply and utterly THE most contemptible, shameless, despicable, cowardly and un-manly way to try to resolve the issue of a sexless marriage.*

A much better way is to follow the advice of RDJ to improve ourselves as husbands and men. If that doesn't encourage and motivate our women to emotionally and sexually open themselves up to desiring us, then we should grow a pair, leave them and move on with our lives. You'd be surprised how many women quickly and suddenly find themselves sexually attracted to their *confident men* especially when they know that their men are leaving them for good.

Brinkmanship? Perhaps but considering the stakes, it is a game that all men should not be afraid of and be willing to see to all its possible conclusions. After all, *it is better to live by a dream than to live by a lie.*


----------



## Mrs. T

okeydokie said:


> are you suggesting that men lead and women follow?


  If my husband is leading me toward happiness I will happily follow.


----------



## FrankKissel

morituri said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Even though I was being totally facetious with my last comment - the smiley face at the end - there is a grain of truth in it.
> 
> Many women suddenly want to have sex with their husbands when they know he is sexually involved with another woman. I've seen this strange phenomenon over and over again with so many couples I've known in the past to realize that this is not an isolated event.
> 
> It is as though a bucket of cold water had been thrown in the sleeping wives faces which caused them to finally wake up that the men they long ago de-sexualized in their minds are after all, sexual beings with the need for physical intimacy.
> 
> *But let there be no mistake. There is now way that I condone ANY husband living in a sexless marriage to go out an have an affair. That is simply and utterly THE most shameless, despicable, cowardly and un-manly way to try to resolve the issue of a sexless marriage.*
> 
> A much better way is to follow the advice of RDJ to improve ourselves as husbands and men. If that doesn't encourage and motivate our women to emotionally and sexually open themselves up to desiring us, then we should grow a pair, leave them and move on with our lives. You'd be surprised how many women quickly and suddenly find themselves sexually attracted to their *confident men* especially when they know that their men are leaving them for good.
> 
> Brinkmanship? Perhaps but considering the stakes, it is a game that all men should not be afraid of and be willing to see to all its possible conclusions. After all, *it is better to live by a dream than to live by a lie.*


What you describe may very well be true in some cases, but I can tell you from personal experience that it's not necessarily so and trying to cause jealousy or instill fear may result in far more harm than good.

Long story short: my wife and I went through a rough period when she became convinced beyond all reason that I was cheating. I wasn't (side note: being falsely accused of cheating sucks). Anyhow, she figured it out after a few challenging months and we've patched things up.
However, during those three months the thought of me cheating did anything but make me more sexually attractive to her. She didn't want to touch me, and she flinched as if shocked by electricity when I touched her. I might as well have been a leper. 

So, while I'm sure what you say might be true in some instances, I also know that just complete opposite is true in others. And I would strongly discourage any husband who thinks he's going to get more by trying to engender sexual jealousy in his wife. You're playing with fire there. And then when you have to explain to her that you were only trying to make her jealous so she'd put out more ... well, good luck with that.

Lastly, what kind of guy wants to have sex with a woman who's only interested because you're threatening to leave or look elsewhere? I'd rather just leave than have sex with a woman who's been coerced - consciously or subconsciously - into intimacy.

So, in summary, hoping to get more sex by making your wife feel jealous and/or threatened could blow up in your face horribly. And even if it doesn't, it'll lead to basically coerced sex, and that's likely to go away once your wife again feels secure in your relationship. 
Why bother?

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SunnyT

*Many women suddenly want to have sex with their husbands when they know he is sexually involved with another woman. I've seen this strange phenomenon over and over again with so many couples I've known in the past to realize that this is not an isolated event.

It is as though a bucket of cold water had been thrown in the sleeping wives faces which caused them to finally wake up that the men they long ago de-sexualized in their minds are after all, sexual beings with the need for physical intimacy.*

Don't you think "these women" aren't really suddenly desiring sex with the husband... more like they feel they SHOULD "give it up" in order to keep him, preserve the marriage, placate him...or whatever. I'd think in some cases it COULD shock the W into realizing the degree of sexual intimacy that is missing from the marriage and genuinely seeking that. But for the most part, "sexless" women aren't suddenly awoken and desiring.... IMO. 

And ya, a man should inspire his wife to love, care for and desire him.... but that works both ways.... A good woman will do the same to her H or she isn't much of a wife. THAT is when you have an awesome marriage, when it works both ways.... both spouses TRY and are conscious of wanting the other to think the best, be proud, and DESIRE them! Stage 3? I like what RDJ said about the stages.... but again, I think it applies to wives just as much as it does to husbands. We both have to give 100%, there is no 50/50.


----------



## Havesomethingtosay

Again I read this over and over and responses and I come back to the OP and the statement Is it always the man's fault? and I say NO..... 

I get frustrated reading these posts that solely concentrate on what a MAN has to do and all that he has done wrong along the way. Yep often he is to blame as is the woman, but you seem preoccupied in pointing out the faults of ll men and that we should be happy women put up with us at all.....


----------



## okeydokie

the best sex had in my house is after a vigorous argument. the last few have included talk of seperation. when done i get laid by a porn star (wife). why it takes the major blowup for this to happen, i dont know. i asked her and she didnt have an answer. we usually get active for a week or so beyond that then fall right back into the norm


----------



## RDJ

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Again I read this over and over and responses and I come back to the OP and the statement Is it always the man's fault? and I say NO.....
> 
> I get frustrated reading these posts that solely concentrate on what a MAN has to do and all that he has done wrong along the way. Yep often he is to blame as is the woman, but you seem preoccupied in pointing out the faults of ll men and that we should be happy women put up with us at all.....


I understand your points. if you don't mind, let me ask you a few questions?

Have you experienced a sexless marriage?

What did you do about it?

What advice can you give from your experiences?

Please enlighten me!


----------



## Sawney Beane

RDJ said:


> Thank You Sawney!
> 
> That was the point. If a man cannot inspire and lead his wife to a loving, sexual marriage. than he can let her go or live with it.
> 
> There is no silver bullet.


I have a view on this - the "inspire and lead" bit.

Way back, shortly after the fall of the Roman Empire, I was a rifleman in the British Army. When I enlisted, and went through basic training, something over half the people failed to pass out.

The reasons were many and varied, but there were two major ones: bad knees and bad attitudes.

Bad knees are no good in a job that comprises lots of carrying large loads on your back for long periods.

"Bad attitudes" largely embodied people who were not willing to be led. For whatever reason, they were unwilling to place any part of their autonomy in the hands of another. As a result, they were of f*ck-all use to the Army.

Now, the thing is, that by the time the Army worked this out, and kicked them into touch, it hadn't invested too much time, money and effort in them.

By the time some bloke has been married for a few years, finally figured out HE has to do the leading and THEN discovered his wife is unwilling to be led, he's a lot further down the road than the NCO's at the Rifles' training depot. He can't simply say "Who G.A.S., there's another load along next month". 

And believe you me, there are people, of both sexes, who even if they were dying of starvation, wouldn't let someone else lead them to a pie shop for a free feed!


----------



## Sawney Beane

morituri said:


> You'd be surprised how many women quickly and suddenly find themselves sexually attracted to their *confident men* especially when they know that their men are leaving them for good.


Or become like the person who discovers fiscal prudence under threat of being evicted: they learn to do it, because they have to, but hate every minute of it and would cheerfully go back to profligacy and carelessness at the drop of a hat if the chance arose


----------



## morituri

SunnyT said:


> Don't you think "these women" aren't really suddenly desiring sex with the husband... more like they feel they SHOULD "give it up" in order to keep him, preserve the marriage, placate him...or whatever. I'd think in some cases it COULD shock the W into realizing the degree of sexual intimacy that is missing from the marriage and genuinely seeking that. But for the most part, "sexless" women aren't suddenly awoken and desiring.... IMO.


True but don't underestimate or discount the power of fear to ignite sexual arousal, albeit temporary, in a significant number of women. A good example of this you'll find in the 'Coping with infidelity' forum where quite a number former cheating wives start having what is called 'hysterical bonding' sex with their betrayed husbands who were ready to leave them and pull the plug on the marriage.



> And ya, a man should inspire his wife to love, care for and desire him.... but that works both ways.... A good woman will do the same to her H or she isn't much of a wife. THAT is when you have an awesome marriage, when it works both ways.... both spouses TRY and are conscious of wanting the other to think the best, be proud, and DESIRE them! Stage 3? I like what RDJ said about the stages.... but again, I think it applies to wives just as much as it does to husbands. We both have to give 100%, there is no 50/50


.

:iagree:


----------



## FrankKissel

Sawney Beane said:


> Or become like the person who discovers fiscal prudence under threat of being evicted: they learn to do it, because they have to, but hate every minute of it and would cheerfully go back to profligacy and carelessness at the drop of a hat if the chance arose


And surely will once security (whether it be in one's relationship or finances) returns.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sawney Beane

FrankKissel said:


> And surely will once security (whether it be in one's relationship or finances) returns.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you read Athol K, you'll see he espouses the idea of working to maintain a constant level of tension / instability in a relationship...


----------



## Sawney Beane

morituri said:


> True but don't underestimate or discount the power of fear to ignite sexual arousal, albeit temporary, in a significant number of women. A good example of this you'll find in the 'Coping with infidelity' forum where quite a number former cheating wives start having what is called 'hysterical bonding' sex with their betrayed husbands who were ready to leave them and pull the plug on the marriage.


And once the temporary, hysterical phase is over, and normality returns, what happens then? You haven't awakened a _desire_ to do something, necessarily, merely expereinced an unreasoned reaction to a high stress event.


----------



## FrankKissel

Sawney Beane said:


> If you read Athol K, you'll see he espouses the idea of working to maintain a constant level of tension / instability in a relationship...


I have read a bunch, not all, of his stuff, and like much of what's out there, some is very worthwhile and some is ummmm ... let's just say not so good.

I'm not sure I've ever read anything of his that suggests putting your relationship in a constant state of tension/instability, but, like I said, I haven't read everything he's written. If he did write that, I'd put it in the "not so good" category. I think that would be exhausting for both parties and defeat the purpose of engaging in a long-term relationship. Why would one choose to settle down only to make an effort to keep thing constantly unsettled.
I can see some benefit in occasionally tipping the apple cart to maintain a level of excitement, but constantly? No thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DTO

RDJ said:


> Thank You Sawney!
> 
> That was the point. If a man cannot inspire and lead his wife to a loving, sexual marriage. than he can let her go or live with it.
> 
> There is no silver bullet.


This I agree with. My point was that earlier posts from you (RDJ) seemed to give the impression that letting her go was a concession of sorts to men who aren't strong or able enough to elicit appropriate responses from his partner / wife.

I was simply trying to show that there are substantial numbers of women who simply will not come around through no fault or deficiency on the man's part. Additionally, there are women making demands for their compliance that no man should make even if he is able (like trading sex for gifts or excessive chores).


----------



## MEM2020

The bit below is a gross distortion. Athol's actual message is more like this:
If your LD partner is taking you and your love/commitment for granted, that is often because you have conveyed the idea that no matter how little love they show you, you will always meet all their needs. The only way to change that perception is to stop loving unconditionally. and doing so DOES destabilize the relationship. Your partner suddenly sees you putting yourself first more and more often. They realize you are starting to say "no", a word that previously the only heard when it came from their mouth. 

The LD partner and their advocates tend to scream foul when this is done. In fact it is simply a rebalancing activity.

But they can't ever really explain why it is so unfair.


UOTE=FrankKissel;569363]I have read a bunch, not all, of his stuff, and like much of what's out there, some is very worthwhile and some is ummmm ... let's just say not so good.

I'm not sure I've ever read anything of his that suggests putting your relationship in a constant state of tension/instability, but, like I said, I haven't read everything he's written. If he did write that, I'd put it in the "not so good" category. I think that would be exhausting for both parties and defeat the purpose of engaging in a long-term relationship. Why would one choose to settle down only to make an effort to keep thing constantly unsettled.
I can see some benefit in occasionally tipping the apple cart to maintain a level of excitement, but constantly? No thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash.

FrankKissel said:


> Why would one choose to settle down only to make an effort to keep thing constantly unsettled.
> I can see some benefit in occasionally tipping the apple cart to maintain a level of excitement, but constantly? No thanks.


It's not done constantly it's only done when absolutely necessary. It's human nature (sometimes) to take people for granted especially your spouse. When that happens some type of action must be taken and for many people just talking about it doesn't work therefore they need to up their game.

I do believe if you have to do this often you've got bigger problems than you know. So on that I agree with you.


----------



## hookares

Sometimes two people have NO CHANCE of marital success simply because they lie to themselves.
My ex knew exactly what she was getting since we dated for about eight months and she knew my occupation required at least 16 hours per day at work. She also know what she was getting in the sex department since we were active before marriage.
Why did she want to get married?
Greed. She correctly saw in me a meal ticket who could provide for her the things she wasn't accustomed to having.
Here it is, two years and a few months after the divorce and she now thinks she made "mistake" and wants me to take her back.
The second guy she was humping after the divorce has finally dumped her.
I'm sure that I shared in responsibility for the split, but I have nothing left to give her.


----------



## sinnister

RDJ said:


> Yes I blame it on the man.
> 
> As a man you take responsibility for your marriage.
> 
> Your wife is only as b!tchy, angry, disrespectful, loveless, and sexless as YOU allow.
> 
> If a man does not have the balls to stand up and set the guidelines for what is and is not acceptable. Then he has no one to blame but himself.
> 
> It's all about mutual happiness. But if a woman will not take on her part of the marriage, then a man should take the lead.
> 
> Regardless of who takes the blame, he has the ability to inspire change in himself and in her.
> 
> *As I said, if he can't get her to do so then "let her go". If he can't do either, he has no right to complain, he creates his own misery*.
> 
> So is the man to blame ? More than likely, YES!


It's not that simple in some cases...and believe me I'm all for simplicity if possible.

What you describe there "if he can't get her to do so" is so incredibly subjective. I have a wife who is culturally AND personally prone to be headstrong. It is one of the things I love so very much about her. But...that means standing up to her will likely not lead to the positive results you elude to. Her strength is independence. 

Staying with her is about so much. It's about my little girls, it's about that promise I made to her, to God and to myself on that rainy day in June 6 years ago.

At some point we all have to realize that people will ultimately do what is important to them. If one spouse is no longer willing to put forth effort that is fundamental to a stable healthy relationship...it is and always will be THAT persons fault. Shaft or Taco is of no consequence.


----------



## Lon

RDJ, just caught up on this thread (more like skipped over). Anyways, it definitely resonates with me, but also bothers me a whole lot because lately I feel like I am missing something in myself so badly, that has caused me to get far off track from your model of male adult development.

I think I just skipped stage 1. I am the nice guy that would never accept being selfish. I repressed all of that. And now looking back at my failed marriage I wonder if I was just faking it all along? My marriage ended in what would be your idea of stage 2, and pretty early on in it. We set up some routines that definitely were not healthy and she bolted really quickly.

So, in your model, if a man is way off track, skipped a stage but found himself right smack in the middle of stage 2 is it possible for him to get to stage 3? Personally I think my divorce has sparked a lot of work in myself to get to what looks like your stage 3, but now I have nobody to go through it with. Nor can I go redo stage 1, because I have a child that I am responsible for... your model doesn't seem to work for those who arrive at divorce, nor for those that haven't gone out and been a player.

I'm working on rewriting my NG road map, doing some of the breaking free exercises in Glover's book, but it is hard to feel much hope, its like you get one try in life, and when you get eliminated you are discarded, however I'm still here along with the majority of other men who ended up eliminated, so what do us rejects do, can't go back to the beginning, can't jump the queue. Where to? All I want to know right now is if there is something I am missing how can I find it...


----------



## jekyllnhyde

Conrad said:


> Jekyll,
> 
> You said she had issues in her prior marriage.
> 
> Tell us about them.
> 
> Do you know anything about her childhood?


Her husband was a drunk and and emoionally abusive. Her marriage was almost sexless. She grew up on a farm in Europe. She came to the states at 16. She's the oldest of 5. She was a virgin when she married him, and has had no other man besides her x and me.

I think, she was the oldest and raised the most European (strictest), and she found my wild side appealing because secretly she always wanted to be a "bad girl". She often says I went after her because she was a naive "Goody Two Shoes"...

Then after she turned 50 something, and menopause kicked in, my colorful past was no longer sexy or intriguing, but repulsive.


----------



## MEM2020

Sinnister,
We married the same woman. The differences are:
- I know what is important to me, everything else I make easy/fun for her
- The stuff that is important to me, either gets handled in a way I find acceptable OR the remaining 90% of our interactions (which are HIGHLY positive, supportive and fun for her) rapidly stop. I don't yell or scream. I don't pout or snap at the kids. I am not hostile towards my W. I simply filter her out of my consideration. 

Because she fully "grasps" the cause and effect of our interactions I very rarely have to go into "180 lite" mode. She HATES when I do that. But then, she gets to select the duration of that experience. A simple apology followed by a commitment to do better in the future produces an immediate thaw. 

That said, my W has a few soft spots. I could work those in a self serving way and "weaken" her self esteem to make her "easier/less demanding/etc.". That would be emotionally toxic for her though. 

You seem to have sold yourself the idea that you cannot firmly assert your boundaries. If I am right about that, your marriage will eventually end in tears. Even if you "stay together" on paper, you will end up without a real relationship. 

The notion that you cannot insist on comparable treatment without "attacking" her independence, is simply false. 



sinnister said:


> It's not that simple in some cases...and believe me I'm all for simplicity if possible.
> 
> What you describe there "if he can't get her to do so" is so incredibly subjective. I have a wife who is culturally AND personally prone to be headstrong. It is one of the things I love so very much about her. But...that means standing up to her will likely not lead to the positive results you elude to. Her strength is independence.
> 
> Staying with her is about so much. It's about my little girls, it's about that promise I made to her, to God and to myself on that rainy day in June 6 years ago.
> 
> At some point we all have to realize that people will ultimately do what is important to them. If one spouse is no longer willing to put forth effort that is fundamental to a stable healthy relationship...it is and always will be THAT persons fault. Shaft or Taco is of no consequence.


----------



## jerryseinfeld

RDJ said:


> Stage one marriages become sexless because someone (usually the man) becomes selfish about getting his own needs met and undermines the relationship with his needy and manipulative behavior. Stage two marriages become sexless because someone (usually the woman) decides that the marriage has lost all passion and excitement. It no longer inspires her to feel loved. They negotiated all of the passion out in favor of peaceful co-existence, and now she wants the passion back.


This might be the most hilarious statement in history:"someone (usually the man) becomes selfish about getting his own needs met and undermines the relationship with his needy and manipulative behaviour."

This is classic female behavior. You obviously aren't married, because any man who is married knows this is the story of their lives! LOL!

Every human being wants their "needs" met. The societal difference is that women are preconditioned to demand "needs" from men and men are preconditioned to try to meet those needs.

As men, we want to make our women happy! Women want to make their men happy too, but they aren't preprogrammed to the same degree that men are. This is why the world as we know it exists today. Women haven't really created anything of consequence, men have. Lights, electricity, cars, homogenized milk, clean water, buildings, bridges, boats, planes....our entire functional world was made by men. And likely by a man trying to impress a woman, at some core level.

I think what most men ask is that women recognize that we live for you. And we are programmed to. So please, don't abuse this knowledge. Don't make us feel guilty every time we don't live up to your expectations.

We love you women so much, and all we want is your approval. So make us feel like men, instead of constantly expressing disappointment, and I promise, you will always be happy.

If you want a man, you have the power to create one in your husband. Make him feel like one. I promise it will be the brightest flower you ever planted.


----------



## jerryseinfeld

Let's be brutally honest here: getting married represents zero financial downside for a woman, and zero financial upside for a man (usually) - even when a woman earns more than a man; because women typically don't earn that money for long - due to motherhood. That's why women love weddings.

Can you imagine the man's equivalent of a wedding? A justice of the Peace walks up to you and says "from this point forward your will either be happy, or you will receive a financial compensation for not being happy."

Who in a million years would ever turn that down? And more to the point: with this kind of legal backdrop, who do you think is going to be the bigger ******* in the subsequent relationship? When you have no downside, you are bound to - at least, subconsciously, - be a bit of a *****.

Women demand happiness because (a) they think they deserve it and (b) if they don't get it, the man pays them money. Nice position to be in, if I do say so myself.

Men don't demand happiness. Men's lot is to provide it. 70% of divorces are filed by women. Why? Are women 70% less happy? Hardly. Men are at least equally miserable in their marriages. The difference isn't happiness. The difference is the sense of entitlement. Men don't feel entitled to happiness - to the contrary, many (most?) men see it as their lot in life to provide for lady and family. And many are miserable doing it. But why do they continue? Are women 70% less happy?

No. The reason only 30% of divorces are filed by men is, frankly, only 1/3 of men have the balls to look in the mirror and say "no matter how financially devastating divorce may be, she's a big enough ***** chart it's worth it".

95% of Women have no downside to divorce, so entering and exiting a marriage is rather easy. Men have trouble both entering a marriage AND exiting it, for the reverse reason: lots of downside, both to propose, and to file.


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## Catherine602

Is this a survey?? 

Then I vote yes. Given the choice, who wouldn't foist all of their problems on someone else. { ~ ~ } 

I know you are asking for a serious discussion. And there is an underlying serious consideration. People generally don't like to take responsibility for their own sh!t.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lalsr1988

All I will say, is that as a husband, I am not my wife's servent. I will not do her favors just so I can have sex. If I want sex, I'm going to get some from her. If she wants sex,she is going to get some from me. I loathe hearing that bs from a lot of women today, "If you do so and so, I will let you have some. " I am not a dog, to be handed treats for doing things. I went into my marriage thinking that sex will be had whenever either spouse wants, and that's exactly what it is for me. I will not be told no. Sometimes after or during a fight I will force her down on the bed. Resistance will last all of 15 seconds. After that she will get into it as much if not more than me. Then the rest of the day is dandy. Some of you guys really need to be more assertive and Alpha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anony2

Great post OP, this is all discussed in the book called Women's Infidelity. 

If you want to know why you are in a sexless marriage, it is because the man could be stifling his wife's sexuality which in turn causes her chemicals to go into brother/sister mode instead of hot sex mode. 

To get her back into hot sex mode, touch her in a non sexual way whenever you are not having sex. Wanting sex from her and touching her sexually all the time makes the woman feel as if she is being used for sex and no one wants to feel like they are being used for sex. 

Also, do what she wants to do sexually as much as doing what you want to do. She isn't a blow up doll, so do not treat her as such.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

RDJ said:


> Your wife is only as b!tchy, angry, disrespectful, loveless, and sexless as YOU allow.


Now I would extend this to the female partner of the relationship as well. Her husband is only as much an a$$ as she allows. 

I believe by nature both men and women tend to push boundaries. Not so much consciously but just naturally over time. For instance...if after dinner you can get up and walk away to plop down on the couch while your partner takes care of the dishes why wouldn't you? The person left to clean up can grumble about it and allow the resentment to grow, they can leave the mess there, or they can say something. 

This is a simplistic example but I think over time what happens is certain patterns become established and this happens in a lot of different aspects of the relationship. Suddenly a decade later one person hits their breaking point. Different people respond to this breaking point differently. Attempts to break the pattern understandably cause significant stress in the relationship possibly causing other issues. 

I think the solution is not to allow these things to get to that point. If you marry someone with the expectation you will have sex three times a week why wait until 15 years pass before trying to address it. Deal with it the first week you fall to two sessions in a week. 

By the same token if you marry someone expecting they will help with the household chores don't do them all and then grumble about what a lazy SOB your partner is...force them to do their share from day 1.

So to me it's not just the man who has to be assertive in the relationship it's both the man and the woman that need to be assertive, particularly on the issues that really matter to them.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

anony2 said:


> makes the woman feel as if she is being used for sex and no one wants to feel like they are being used for sex.


Yes, the women is not able to own her feelings and the man makes her feel this way. Compounded by the fact that a man might not mind being used for sex so why would he worry about making another feel that way?

Research shows that the number one factor affecting a woman's attitude toward intimacy is her feelings about herself. How she feels about the man is of secondary or even tertiary importance.

Adding this up is not real difficult. The man has superior influence over the woman's feelings and she feels badly about herself. Who fault is that?


----------



## ocotillo

RDJ said:


> Agree or disagree??


Neither. You've only described one half of the dynamic between men and women.

I agree that a husband can bring out the best or the worst in his wife, *but the reverse is equally true.* The expression, "Behind every successful man is a woman" did not originate in a vacuum because there's a kernel of truth at its core. A man can feel either like a Roman Emperor in full dress armor or the lowest form of pond scum depending on how his wife treats him and this affects every aspect of his daily life. 

Men and women each tend to be strong in the areas where the other is weak. That's why we make such effective teams together. It's easy to sit back and criticize a spouse for weaknesses that stand juxtaposed to our strengths.

It's a little harder to break out of that egocentric mindset and appreciate that a spouse's strengths are every bit as important as ours, but ultimately it's a test of who we are as people.


----------



## anony2

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Yes, the women is not able to own her feelings and the man makes her feel this way. Compounded by the fact that a man might not mind being used for sex so why would he worry about making another feel that way?
> 
> Research shows that the number one factor affecting a woman's attitude toward intimacy is her feelings about herself. How she feels about the man is of secondary or even tertiary importance.
> 
> Adding this up is not real difficult. The man has superior influence over the woman's feelings and she feels badly about herself. Who fault is that?



If A man's (not all men) view of sex is just doing it to get off, then his wife is just a means to an end and yes, that WOULD affect how she would feel about herself. Ask any woman. 

If you think that what someone else does or doesn't do does not effect how you would feel about yourself, then there would not be anything such as Alpha and Beta males because all males would be Alpha if they had a choice. It would also negate men having the ability to blame women for demasculinizing them because according to you that would mean that men are not able to own his own feelings of not being masculine. 

Research shows that women are the ones filing for divorce and asking for divorces more than men...do you want to know why?

Read the book. 

Excerpt from page 87

"*Women are repulsed by having sex with their husbands solely as a means to please their husbands.* Males may have difficulty understanding this concept, because they can only have sex if they are aroused. It’s hard for men to imagine their bodies being used for someone else’s pleasure, although Viagra may have changed that somewhat.
The feelings women experience when having sex solely to satisfy their husbands are probably similar to the feelings men have during a proctologic exam. It’s an uncomfortable experience and they look forward to its end.
I use this analogy frequently, because it allows men to understand that *during intercourse a woman is allowing her body to be entered by another person, and a certain comfort level is required. A woman’s comfort level at having her body entered does not necessarily increase with the regularity or frequency of the act. Her acceptance may actually decrease.*
Imagine how men would feel if they continued to receive anal exams regularly and frequently, not out of necessity or for physical pleasure, but simply because their doctors liked to perform them. *A man’s discomfort during the initial exam, which was performed out of necessity, would escalate to feelings of violation, dread and repulsion.
*

*Women’s repulsion toward sex in general, or marital sex in particular, is due to continued sexual encounters with their husbands or boyfriends in the absence of sexual pleasure or occasional sexual satisfaction.*"


Michelle Langley. (2005). Women’s Infidelity living in limbo. Saint Louis: McCarlan Publishing.
Page 87


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

anony2 said:


> Read the book.


Love to, can I get a free copy? I had erroneously thought women were in control of their own sexuality but now I see that it's all the mans doing. I was thinking all this female infidelity and divorce was due to increased employment opportunities, no fault divorce laws, lack of moral structure. Silly me


----------



## anony2

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Love to, can I get a free copy?


I don't know, can you?




Ten_year_hubby said:


> I had erroneously thought women were in control of their own sexuality but now I see that it's all the mans doing. I was thinking all this female infidelity and divorce was due to increased employment opportunities and no fault divorce laws. Silly me




Seriously? 

Some men have attempted to put a damper on women's sexuality for thousands of years by attempting to tell women that they are wrong for wanting sex or that they are wrong for wanting to be pleased during sex and even told women that they were "wrong" for dressing in certain clothes. Some cultures try to stifle women's sexuality by making them dress in all black and wear veils on their faces and instead of making men learn to control themselves, they make the women cover up. 

Have you ever seriously contemplated why women are called names if they have many sexual partners while it is some type of trophy if a man does? 

I know this may be hard for you to fathom, but most women love sex just as much as most men do and one of the huge reasons that many women are getting divorces at such a high rate is because the man that she has, cannot please her sexually and does not attempt to do so, this will automatically make women go into LD mode. It is a chemical reaction, it isn't HER conscious choice. If a man cannot handle a woman's sexuality, then the problem is with the man, not with the woman and your insecurity is YOUR insecurity, not hers. 

In this day and age, men can no longer keep their wives at home "barefoot and pregnant" when their wives can and do make as much as they do. I would even go so far as saying that was the cause of the income disparity between women and men's wages in the first place. Women are not creatures for filling men's desires, stroking the male ego or for men to control, no matter what some of the religious texts say.  

Another interesting addition to this is the fact that it was still legal for a man to beat his wife up until the 1980's in some US states. Isn't that a great example of an Alpha male? :O


----------



## ocotillo

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Love to, can I get a free copy?


The book is quite pricey and may leave a bad taste overall. Ms. Langley's insights are certainly helpful, but the book comes across in places as simply excuses and semi-justifications for infidelity.

In Ms. Langley's defense though, she did (mostly) atone for this in the second book


----------



## anony2

ocotillo said:


> The book is quite pricey and may leave a bad taste overall. Ms. Langley's insights are certainly helpful, but the book comes across in places as simply excuses and semi-justifications for infidelity.
> 
> In Ms. Langley's defense though, she did (mostly) atone for this in the second book


I disagree, there were no justifications for infidelity, she explained why women were doing what they were doing, unfortunately, it isn't something that most insecure males want to hear.

Who do you think invented the idea of a quickie, women or men?


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

anony2 said:


> one of the huge reasons that many women are getting divorces at such a high rate is because the man that she has, cannot please her sexually and does not attempt to do so, this will automatically make women go into LD mode. It is a chemical reaction, it isn't HER conscious choice.


What about after this kind of divorce, do they get remarried? Is the next guy usually better or more willing?


----------



## ocotillo

anony2 said:


> I disagree, there were no justifications for infidelity, she explained why women were doing what they were doing, unfortunately, it isn't something that most insecure males want to hear.
> 
> Who do you think invented the idea of a quickie, women or men?


Psychological and biological motivations do wander across the line into excuses and justification when they are presented as explanatory devices for the human condition. 

As a simple thought experiment, lets examine the distaff side of that thinking: It's true that women as a group initiate more divorces than do men, but this is not true across all age and income demographics.

There is one demographic group among men who initiate divorces at a sharply disproportionate rate, and that is wealthy men in their 50's and 60's. It wouldn't even be a challenge to name 50 actors in Hollywood whose current wives are 25+ years their junior.

While we can recognize that there are psychological and biological motivators for that type of behavior, we don't accept them as valid explanations for it because there is much more involved in being human. Humans are capable of rising above their base natures and we use terms like, 'Honor,' 'Dignity,' and 'Self respect' to describe that capacity. And I wouldn't use any of those words to describe a man who divorces his wife and takes up with a younger woman just because he can. 

I hope you can see the corollary here. Women are capable of rising above their base natures too. To Ms. Langley's credit, she does address that lacunae in her second book. She was very blunt and forthright in helping women to understand when they're slipping into a mindset of rationalization and what to do to get out of it.


----------



## costa200

RDJ said:


> No, not always, (Yes, there are plenty of women that will never take care of their side of the street. If that’s truly the case and you have been and done all a good man can. Then simply let her go!) But in my opinion, it’s the man’s responsibility to inspire the best from a woman. It is his responsibility to bring out the best in his wife, spiritually, emotionally, and sexually.
> 
> Why doesn’t the woman have to take responsibility for her side of the marriage?
> 
> She does!
> 
> But in my opinion, in most cases, it’s the man that inspires her to want to. It’s the man that brings out the best or the worst in the marriage.
> 
> Seriously, how many men complain that their wife is incapable of having a mutually happy, sexual marriage? Yet after they divorce (sometimes before) she ends up with a man that she is all of these things with?
> 
> Did she all of a sudden change?
> 
> Yes she did. Why?
> 
> Because this man knew how to inspire her to be the entire woman she wanted to be, and always was.
> 
> Most likely the man that she b!tched at, complained too, held back on, and did everything she could to get him to listen, understand, and change. Never heard her, didn’t care, or thought he could do and be whatever he wanted. He did not need to change, he just married a b!tch!
> 
> I have worked with many men in sexless marriages over the last several years who thought their wife could not be loving, affectionate, or sexual (myself included). Most of who were wrong. A few of their women had to do so with another man. But many of these men learned to change themselves to change their wife (again, myself included).
> 
> You need to be a strong, masculine man (No wussies allowed). But you also best know how to understand a woman’s needs and how to fulfill them. When you do, she just might be sexually attracted to you again.
> 
> 
> Agree or disagree??



I agree, as long as we understand that what women need of their husband is not always what they say they need. Actually it is texts like this that we often see in womanized magazines that lead some mean to become authentic doormats to their women right before she bails on him for another guy.


----------



## Cosmos

anony2 said:


> Some men have attempted to put a damper on women's sexuality for thousands of years by attempting to tell women that they are wrong for wanting sex or that they are wrong for wanting to be pleased during sex and even told women that they were "wrong" for dressing in certain clothes. Some cultures try to stifle women's sexuality by making them dress in all black and wear veils on their faces and instead of making men learn to control themselves, they make the women cover up.


You left out female circumcision. The most abhorent method of controlling a woman's sexuality...


----------



## anony2

Ten_year_hubby said:


> What about after this kind of divorce, do they get remarried? Is the next guy usually better or more willing?


Yes, they do and yes, the same thing can happen again until they meet a partner that is willing to go through the steps that the OP mentions and see it out to the end. 

The author also talks about the needs of women according to women instead of what women have been told that they need. 

Women need *non sexual* touch and scheduled sex. The reason is that women take a long time to prepare for sex, it is not just an instant *BOING* and they are ready, women have to mentally prepare. This scheduled sex allows women to mentally prepare and the non sexual touch allows women to feel loved without sex being the goal.


----------



## anony2

ocotillo said:


> Psychological and biological motivations do wander across the line into excuses and justification when they are presented as explanatory devices for the human condition.


If you say so, but again, I disagree. 



ocotillo said:


> As a simple thought experiment, lets examine the distaff side of that thinking: It's true that women as a group initiate more divorces than do men, but this is not true across all age and income demographics.
> 
> There is one demographic group among men who initiate divorces at a sharply disproportionate rate, and that is wealthy men in their 50's and 60's. It wouldn't even be a challenge to name 50 actors in Hollywood whose current wives are 25+ years their junior.


“Women are twice as likely to initiate a divorce as men,” said Dr. Bill Doherty, a national expert on marriages, professor at the University of Minnesota and a contributor to the Huffington Post’s new divorce section."
Good Question: Who Initiates Divorce, Men Or Women? « CBS Minnesota



ocotillo said:


> While we can recognize that there are psychological and biological motivators for that type of behavior, we don't accept them as valid explanations for it because there is much more involved in being human. Humans are capable of rising above their base natures and we use terms like, 'Honor,' 'Dignity,' and 'Self respect' to describe that capacity. And I wouldn't use any of those words to describe a man who divorces his wife and takes up with a younger woman just because he can.
> 
> I hope you can see the corollary here. Women are capable of rising above their base natures too. To Ms. Langley's credit, she does address that lacunae in her second book. She was very blunt and forthright in helping women to understand when they're slipping into a mindset of rationalization and what to do to get out of it.


Yes, women are, but that doesn't mean that they should have to go through their lives without their needs being met and this is no more rationalization as men saying that their looking at porn has nothing to do with their wives, but that men are just visual while women aren't...  Do you tell men to rise above their base natures?


----------



## anony2

costa200 said:


> I agree, as long as we understand that what women need of their husband is not always what they say they need. Actually it is texts like this that we often see in womanized magazines that lead some mean to become authentic doormats to their women right before she bails on him for another guy.


This is the problem though costa, women are constantly bombarded (as well as men) with someone TELLING them what their needs are.


----------



## hotdogs

anony2 said:


> Women need *non sexual* touch and scheduled sex. The reason is that women take a long time to prepare for sex, it is not just an instant *BOING* and they are ready, women have to mentally prepare. This scheduled sex allows women to mentally prepare and the non sexual touch allows women to feel loved without sex being the goal.


Although the non sexual touch is correct, the rest does not apply to all women. In my marriage, for example, it is my husband who needs that ridiculous preparation. The conditions have to be exactly right and decided ahead of time. This makes me CRAZY.


----------



## lalsr1988

anony2 said:


> If A man's (not all men) view of sex is just doing it to get off, then his wife is just a means to an end and yes, that WOULD affect how she would feel about herself. Ask any woman.
> 
> If you think that what someone else does or doesn't do does not effect how you would feel about yourself, then there would not be anything such as Alpha and Beta males because all males would be Alpha if they had a choice. It would also negate men having the ability to blame women for demasculinizing them because according to you that would mean that men are not able to own his own feelings of not being masculine.
> 
> Research shows that women are the ones filing for divorce and asking for divorces more than men...do you want to know why?
> 
> Read the book.
> 
> Excerpt from page 87
> 
> "*Women are repulsed by having sex with their husbands solely as a means to please their husbands.* Males may have difficulty understanding this concept, because they can only have sex if they are aroused. It’s hard for men to imagine their bodies being used for someone else’s pleasure, although Viagra may have changed that somewhat.
> The feelings women experience when having sex solely to satisfy their husbands are probably similar to the feelings men have during a proctologic exam. It’s an uncomfortable experience and they look forward to its end.
> I use this analogy frequently, because it allows men to understand that *during intercourse a woman is allowing her body to be entered by another person, and a certain comfort level is required. A woman’s comfort level at having her body entered does not necessarily increase with the regularity or frequency of the act. Her acceptance may actually decrease.*
> Imagine how men would feel if they continued to receive anal exams regularly and frequently, not out of necessity or for physical pleasure, but simply because their doctors liked to perform them. *A man’s discomfort during the initial exam, which was performed out of necessity, would escalate to feelings of violation, dread and repulsion.
> *
> 
> *Women’s repulsion toward sex in general, or marital sex in particular, is due to continued sexual encounters with their husbands or boyfriends in the absence of sexual pleasure or occasional sexual satisfaction.*"
> 
> 
> Michelle Langley. (2005). Women’s Infidelity living in limbo. Saint Louis: McCarlan Publishing.
> Page 87




I call complete BS


----------



## anony2

lalsr1988 said:


> I call complete BS


And then your wife will find someone who meets her needs and listens to her. 

Tell me, who will be more damaged, me or you?


----------



## anony2

hotdogs said:


> Although the non sexual touch is correct, the rest does not apply to all women. In my marriage, for example, it is my husband who needs that ridiculous preparation. The conditions have to be exactly right and decided ahead of time. This makes me CRAZY.


Most likely it is because you want to hurry and get sex over with, which is what happens when the woman's needs are not being met.


----------



## hotdogs

what?! No way! I think I may be an even bigger perv than my husband. I LOVE sex. I love weird sex, I love porn, I love bondage I love everything you can possibly experiment with because I love to have me some sex with a person I love and trust and have no inhibitions!


----------



## ocotillo

anony2 said:


> If you say so, but again, I disagree.


Why? I explained the reasons _vis-à-vis_ the male tendency to forsake a wife for a younger woman and you didn't seem to disagree (?) 




anony2 said:


> “Women are twice as likely to initiate a divorce as men,” ....


I agree with your reference completely. It's a fact. But those figures are not constant for all ages and income levels. We're all familiar with terms like, "First wives club" and "Trophy wife" for a reason. 





anony2 said:


> Yes, women are, but that doesn't mean that they should have to go through their lives without their needs being met and this is no more rationalization as men saying that their looking at porn has nothing to do with their wives, but that men are just visual while women aren't...  Do you tell men to rise above their base natures?


Sadly, many people lose the battle against their base natures. But again, those base natures are not exculpatory in any way. We all make a choice.

Another sad fact is that neither men nor women seem to have any natural talent for meeting each others needs. You said that a woman should not "...have to go through their lives without their needs being met." I couldn't agree more.


----------



## anony2

hotdogs said:


> what?! No way! I think I may be an even bigger perv than my husband. I LOVE sex. I love weird sex, I love porn, I love bondage I love everything you can possibly experiment with because I love to have me some sex with a person I love and trust and have no inhibitions!


Good for you, I think it is excellent that you are so openly sexual! Women are sexual beings after all! 

BUT...you might be intimidating to your husband by your open sexuality, the book also talks about that.


----------



## lalsr1988

anony2 said:


> And then your wife will find someone who meets her needs and listens to her.
> 
> Tell me, who will be more damaged, me or you?



I satisfy my wife's needs and listen to what she has to say Dude. She ain't going anywhere


----------



## anony2

lalsr1988 said:


> All I will say, is that as a husband, I am not my wife's servent. I will not do her favors just so I can have sex.* If I want sex, I'm going to get some from her. *If she wants sex,she is going to get some from me. I loathe hearing that bs from a lot of women today, "If you do so and so, I will let you have some. " I am not a dog, to be handed treats for doing things. I went into my marriage thinking that sex will be had whenever either spouse wants, and that's exactly what it is for me.* I will not be told no.** Sometimes after or during a fight I will force her down on the bed.* Resistance will last all of 15 seconds. After that she will get into it as much if not more than me. Then the rest of the day is dandy. Some of you guys really need to be more assertive and Alpha.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





lalsr1988 said:


> I satisfy my wife's needs and listen to what she has to say Dude. She ain't going anywhere


Dude, you are one phone call away from going to jail. FORCING someone to have sex with you is called rape.


----------



## lalsr1988

anony2 said:


> Dude, you are one phone call away from going to jail. FORCING someone to have sex with you is called rape.


It's rape if she is moaning and saying yeah baby **** me harder? It's called being a Man.


----------



## deejov

When I first started posting here (almost a year ago!) I was swayed into thinking "what about MY needs", and after awhile I ended up turning very selfish. Focusing on what I was not getting from my spouse. 


Recently, I turned this around in my head. I only ask myself "what am I giving to my spouse".


I just have this crazy reocurring theme going on now. If everyone is thinking the same thing -- "what about my needs" then who is thinking about how they are treating another person, and I decided it's wrong for me to even think that way. 

And this just goes even further --- if I live my life bound by an assumption such as "I will be happy when my spouse does A B C" then just think that is setting myself up for failure. Because I have no control over that, really. Not 100% everyday.

It seems so very simple to me NOW. Sure, everyone is happIER when they are getting sex as often as they like. But it doesn't change the fact that the person that wants more is going to seem selfish to the lower drive person, and the refuser is going to be seen as selfish to the higher drive person for not giving.

Why? because it's purely selfish behavior, period, to focus your life on your needs. 

It's unselfish to simply ask yourself "what am I giving". This goes much further in life than the bedroom. 

Ah, but you won't understand this if you are focused on bednotching and judging how well your spouse meets your needs. 

But, each one of us makes an internal decision what our needs are. Sex 2 times a week, or once a week, hugs everyday or 15 minutes of talking, etc. Because it fills your "love tank" and makes you feel loved. And so you also make the decision that NOT getting those things makes you feel UNloved. Proof required that your spouse loves you!

It's much harder to love yourself, and attempt to feel loved by giving to someone else. No one can take that away from you, either. There is no PMS, drug problems, job losses, medical issues that prevent you from giving. It's not conditional on the moon and stars being aligned either. 

It's a very free feeling. To not be dependent on someone else to feel loved. To only focus on giving love. To ask myself what I can do to make someone's day brighter. The reactions I am getting from people in my life and work tell me it's a good attitude to have.

"What have you done for me lately" should be banned from the English language.

How about "how did I treat you today?"


----------



## costa200

anony2 said:


> This is the problem though costa, women are constantly bombarded (as well as men) with someone TELLING them what their needs are.


You're absolutely right. There is a generation of "mind professionals" that generally do nothing more than write articles for magazines teaching women what they want in a husband. 

Huge insult to women IMO. Treating them like children!


----------



## anony2

lalsr1988 said:


> All I will say, is that as a husband, I am not my wife's servent. I will not do her favors just so I can have sex. If I want sex, I'm going to get some from her. If she wants sex,she is going to get some from me. I loathe hearing that bs from a lot of women today, "If you do so and so, I will let you have some. " I am not a dog, to be handed treats for doing things. I went into my marriage thinking that sex will be had whenever either spouse wants, and that's exactly what it is for me. I will not be told no.Sometimes after or during a fight I will *force* her down on the bed. Resistance will last all of 15 seconds. After that she will get into it as much if not more than me. Then the rest of the day is dandy. Some of you guys really need to be more assertive and Alpha.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





lalsr1988 said:


> It's rape if she is moaning and saying yeah baby **** me harder? It's called being a Man.


"2. Force-only rape- motivated by a perpetrator's need to demonstrate power and maintain control. Therefore, he/she asserts his/her feelings of entitlement over his/her partner in the form of *forced* sexual contact."

Partner Rape | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network

Just thought I would add some color coding there for you...


----------



## costa200

lalsr1988 said:


> It's rape if she is moaning and saying yeah baby **** me harder? It's called being a Man.


Nah man... That's called having a woman that is into that crap (because there are those). You try that sort of stuff with the wrong woman and she will send you to the slammer or bite your **** off.


----------



## lalsr1988

anony2 said:


> "2. Force-only rape- motivated by a perpetrator's need to demonstrate power and maintain control. Therefore, he/she asserts his/her feelings of entitlement over his/her partner in the form of *forced* sexual contact."
> 
> Partner Rape | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network
> 
> Just thought I would add some color coding there for you...




can't rape the willing


----------



## lalsr1988

costa200 said:


> Nah man... That's called having a woman that is into that crap (because there are those). You try that sort of stuff with the wrong woman and she will send you to the slammer or bite your **** off.



true, I wouldn't deal with a woman who always wants to throw jail in your face..and if a woman comes at me like a man...


----------



## costa200

lalsr1988 said:


> can't rape the willing


Some of these days you may end up explaining that to a guy dressing in black... 

Seriously now, dude, a woman says no and you don't even have to self esteem to have her change her mind? Every ape can force a woman, but it takes a real man to make her want it.


----------



## lalsr1988

costa200 said:


> Some of these days you may end up explaining that to a guy dressing in black...
> 
> Seriously now, dude, a woman says no and you don't even have to self esteem to have her change her mind? Every ape can force a woman, but it takes a real man to make her want it.



if you go back to my post, you will see where I said it takes 15-30 secs and she is into it more than I am. That's persuasion for us. My wife likes it rough, and wants to be dominated, and I do just that


----------



## costa200

lalsr1988 said:


> if you go back to my post, you will see where I said it takes 15-30 secs and she is into it more than I am. That's persuasion for us. My wife likes it rough, and wants to be dominated, and I do just that


Great, each to its own. But beware that some of these days she may actually really mean it. People who engage in this sort of "forced" fooling around should have some sort of safe word to avoid terrible mistake. Maybe you need to have that talk to your wife.

Otherwise you are playing russian roulette with your freedom.


----------



## lalsr1988

costa200 said:


> Great, each to its own. But beware that some of these days she may actually really mean it. People who engage in this sort of "forced" fooling around should have some sort of safe word to avoid terrible mistake. Maybe you need to have that talk to your wife.
> 
> Otherwise you are playing russian roulette with your freedom.



If she really meant it, I would stop, of course


----------



## RDJ

deejov said:


> When I first started posting here (almost a year ago!) I was swayed into thinking "what about MY needs", and after awhile I ended up turning very selfish. Focusing on what I was not getting from my spouse.
> 
> 
> Recently, I turned this around in my head. I only ask myself "what am I giving to my spouse".
> 
> 
> I just have this crazy reocurring theme going on now. If everyone is thinking the same thing -- "what about my needs" then who is thinking about how they are treating another person, and I decided it's wrong for me to even think that way.
> 
> And this just goes even further --- if I live my life bound by an assumption such as "I will be happy when my spouse does A B C" then just think that is setting myself up for failure. Because I have no control over that, really. Not 100% everyday.
> 
> It seems so very simple to me NOW. Sure, everyone is happIER when they are getting sex as often as they like. But it doesn't change the fact that the person that wants more is going to seem selfish to the lower drive person, and the refuser is going to be seen as selfish to the higher drive person for not giving.
> 
> Why? because it's purely selfish behavior, period, to focus your life on your needs.
> 
> It's unselfish to simply ask yourself "what am I giving". This goes much further in life than the bedroom.
> 
> Ah, but you won't understand this if you are focused on bednotching and judging how well your spouse meets your needs.
> 
> But, each one of us makes an internal decision what our needs are. Sex 2 times a week, or once a week, hugs everyday or 15 minutes of talking, etc. Because it fills your "love tank" and makes you feel loved. And so you also make the decision that NOT getting those things makes you feel UNloved. Proof required that your spouse loves you!
> 
> It's much harder to love yourself, and attempt to feel loved by giving to someone else. No one can take that away from you, either. There is no PMS, drug problems, job losses, medical issues that prevent you from giving. It's not conditional on the moon and stars being aligned either.
> 
> It's a very free feeling. To not be dependent on someone else to feel loved. To only focus on giving love. To ask myself what I can do to make someone's day brighter. The reactions I am getting from people in my life and work tell me it's a good attitude to have.
> 
> "What have you done for me lately" should be banned from the English language.
> 
> How about "how did I treat you today?"


And you just may be surprised that when YOU live this way, your spouse is inspired to do the same!

Well said Deejov.


----------



## lovingsummer

RDJ said:


> And you just may be surprised that when YOU live this way, your spouse is inspired to do the same!
> 
> Well said Deejov.



I agree with Deejov as well but what if it doesn't inspire your spouse to do the same? :scratchhead:


----------



## RDJ

lovingsummer said:


> I agree with Deejov as well but what if it doesn't inspire your spouse to do the same? :scratchhead:


You keep going, you keep trying, you keep growing, you keep stressing the "greater good" until they change, leave you, or you simply fall out of love with them.

You wont need to ask, you will just know!


----------



## lovingsummer

Then I'll be considered a Walk Away Wife right? But even so, I agree... I'll just know, it's sad though.


----------



## RDJ

lovingsummer said:


> Then I'll be considered a Walk Away Wife right? But even so, I agree... I'll just know, it's sad though.


The best any of us can do is to take the high road, be the best we can be, and allow our spouse to join us in a better way.

If they choose not to. It's not about us, it's about them.

Walk away wife? I don't think so.

"A woman that did all she could to be her best and was married to a man that could not step up to her level" Maybe?

Sad? For sure! It's always sad!

But when when you know it's for the best, and it's for your own happiness (which you deserve), you will accept that it's your happiness that counts.

Wishing you the best!

RDJ


----------



## Conrad

RDJ said:


> You keep going, you keep trying, you keep growing, you keep stressing the "greater good" until they change, leave you, or you simply fall out of love with them.
> 
> You wont need to ask, you will just know!


So totally true.

A combination of all of the above is possible as well.


----------



## AFEH

When I went into sales I went around all over the place saying what a great product I had. After 3 months and no orders I totally changed my strategy.

I sat down and worked out my USPs (Unique Selling Points) and ICP (Ideal Customer Profile) and started selling against that. I sold a lot, mainly because I never wasted any of my time with people who were never going to buy. It was high tech, high value stuff and my main qualifier was that the prospect must pay to do an evaluation. I sold bucket loads and even got a two week all expenses paid “business trip” to Steamboat Springs from the UK to demonstrate my way of selling with two 20 minute presentations.

I used to do things like ask if a prospect has a budget, what their time frame is and what their business problems are. But most of all I used to get their commitment in some form or another before taking the sale any further.

I think it’s the same in marriage. That whatever you do and how ever you do it, if the other half isn’t putting in the same amount of effort as yourself, if they are not committed to working to create a happy and healthy marriage, then move on and find a person who is because for sure all you’ll be doing is spinning your wheels.



These things work so much better with commitment from both sides, when both are saying "I do" and really meaning it.


----------



## Gaia

AFEH said:


> When I went into sales I went around all over the place saying what a great product I had. After 3 months and no orders I totally changed my strategy.
> 
> I sat down and worked out my USPs (Unique Selling Points) and ICP (Ideal Customer Profile) and started selling against that. I sold a lot, mainly because I never wasted any of my time with people who were never going to buy. It was high tech, high value stuff and my main qualifier was that the prospect must pay to do an evaluation. I sold bucket loads and even got a two week all expenses paid “business trip” to Steamboat Springs from the UK to demonstrate my way of selling with two 20 minute presentations.
> 
> I used to do things like ask if a prospect has a budget, what their time frame is and what their business problems are. But most of all I used to get their commitment in some form or another before taking the sale any further.
> 
> I think it’s the same in marriage. That whatever you do and how ever you do it, if the other half isn’t putting in the same amount of effort as yourself, if they are not committed to working to create a happy and healthy marriage, then move on and find a person who is because for sure all you’ll be doing is spinning your wheels.
> 
> 
> 
> These things work so much better with commitment from both sides, when both are saying "I do" and really meaning it.


Totally agree with this!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gaia

lalsr1988 said:


> and if a woman comes at me like a man...


I always get a kick out of this saying. Exactly what do you mean by it hmm?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## in my tree

lalsr1988 said:


> I call complete BS


Nope - not b.s. at all. I can relate completely to it and I know a couple of other women who have felt that way as well. One is still married and the other is now unfortunately widowed.


----------



## Trenton

lalsr1988 said:


> All I will say, is that as a husband, I am not my wife's servent. I will not do her favors just so I can have sex. If I want sex, I'm going to get some from her. If she wants sex,she is going to get some from me. I loathe hearing that bs from a lot of women today, "If you do so and so, I will let you have some. " I am not a dog, to be handed treats for doing things. I went into my marriage thinking that sex will be had whenever either spouse wants, and that's exactly what it is for me. I will not be told no. Sometimes after or during a fight I will force her down on the bed. Resistance will last all of 15 seconds. After that she will get into it as much if not more than me. Then the rest of the day is dandy. Some of you guys really need to be more assertive and Alpha.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"If I want sex, I'm going to get some from her."

You sound more like a predator than you do a human being.

I think if this works for your relationship, so be it. However, please "guys" don't take his advice. Humanity depends on it. Going backwards on the fast track is not something we should be doing.


----------



## larry.gray

Trenton said:


> "If I want sex, I'm going to get some from her."
> 
> You sound more like a predator than you do a human being.
> 
> I think if this works for your relationship, so be it. However, please "guys" don't take his advice. Humanity depends on it. Going backwards on the fast track is not something we should be doing.


It's all about knowing what your wife wants. Mine does want to be taken, but not pushed to the level he's talking about. 

I second the advice that if she does respond well to being forced, establish a safe word.


----------



## AFEH

Gaia said:


> Totally agree with this!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I used to be like RDJ and some others here in both my marriage and career. In that failure was totally, 100% on me. At work if my bosses wouldn’t do the right things that was because I hadn’t made the position clear enough to them, if my subordinates were failing that was because I hadn’t given them the right training or enough coaching and so it went on. To a certain degree it helped me be immensely successful at work.

But home life is very different. At work people are motivated not the least because they want to keep their jobs and if they’re ambitious then all the better.


But in marriage you have to make sure your partner wants to keep you and if they want to keep you as much as you want to keep them then all the better. So the first step to take on the path towards a healthier and happier marriage is to see if your partner wants to keep you. And this is done by qualifying them into or out of the process. This can be done in a variety of ways.

For example (1) I’ve booked ten sessions of MC will you join me or (2) I’ve booked a marriage enhancement program, will you join me or (3) Will you marry me, retake our vows?. If the answer to any of these qualifiers/fitness tests are no, give up, separate, divorce and move on.


----------



## Trenton

larry.gray said:


> It's all about knowing what your wife wants. Mine does want to be taken, but not pushed to the level he's talking about.
> 
> I second the advice that if she does respond well to being forced, establish a safe word.


I'm all for doing it nasty, using safe words, etc.

I specifically didn't address that in my post. What I was addressing is the audacity and lack of respect and care that guy has for his wife (summed up in the quote I chose). He feels entitled and the only card he needs to carry for access to some wife ***** is his Alpha Card. Wooohoo and of course she LOVES IT, he's alpha man after all, She has no choice.

Y-u-u-u-u-C-K!!!


----------



## RDJ

AFEH said:


> I used to be like RDJ and some others here in both my marriage and career. In that failure was totally, 100% on me. At work if my bosses wouldn’t do the right things that was because I hadn’t made the position clear enough to them, if my subordinates were failing that was because I hadn’t given them the right training or enough coaching and so it went on. To a certain degree it helped me be immensely successful at work.
> 
> But home life is very different. At work people are motivated not the least because they want to keep their jobs and if they’re ambitious then all the better.
> 
> 
> But in marriage you have to make sure your partner wants to keep you and if they want to keep you as much as you want to keep them then all the better. So the first step to take on the path towards a healthier and happier marriage is to see if your partner wants to keep you. And this is done by qualifying them into or out of the process. This can be done in a variety of ways.
> 
> For example (1) I’ve booked ten sessions of MC will you join me or (2) I’ve booked a marriage enhancement program, will you join me or (3) Will you marry me, retake our vows?. If the answer to any of these qualifiers/fitness tests are no, give up, separate, divorce and move on.


I will repeat. Bad marriage?

Best foot forward, take the high road and be your best person.

Invite to join through actions, not words.

Give it time, if they refuse to join, they will leave. Or you will grow to a level beyond them, fall out of love and no longer care about leaving them.

A lot of sh!t inbetween, but thats the basics.


----------



## Gaia

RDJ and AFEH... it seems to me that you both are essentially saying the same thing but in different ways. Which I agree with both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## deejov

RDJ said:


> I will repeat. Bad marriage?
> 
> Best foot forward, take the high road and be your best person.
> 
> Invite to join through actions, not words.
> 
> Give it time, if they refuse to join, they will leave. Or you will grow to a level beyond them, fall out of love and no longer care about leaving them.
> 
> A lot of sh!t inbetween, but thats the basics.


It took me a long time to get this. But there is nothing that would make me go backwards at this point. It's not even a matter of love. It's my personal boundaries, being true to me, being a whole person, having self esteem and self respect. 
It looks like a huge dark hole, and there is NO way I'm crawling back into it. I'll help someone OUT of it, and I'm up there enjoying the sun. Real life. Cave dwellers have lots of company in their misery. They aren't alone, either. They can have each other. Who needs it.


----------



## Trenton

lalsr1988 I think some ball socks would help you.


----------



## deejov

So how does that not get banned? I mean, freedom to live your life the way you want.. but to advise others to basically committ a rape?


----------



## AFEH

deejov said:


> It took me a long time to get this. But there is nothing that would make me go backwards at this point. It's not even a matter of love. It's my personal boundaries, being true to me, being a whole person, having self esteem and self respect.
> It looks like a huge dark hole, and there is NO way I'm crawling back into it. I'll help someone OUT of it, and I'm up there enjoying the sun. Real life. Cave dwellers have lots of company in their misery. They aren't alone, either. They can have each other. Who needs it.


I’ve a friend who has a magnificently positive mental attitude. For example she got herself through discovering her H in an affair of over 20 years and most recently through breast cancer. She too says she stands up on the ground and will put her hand out to help, but she’ll never get down in someone’s pit with them and if it looks like she’s being dragged down she’ll let go. I’ve a lot of time and respect for her.


----------



## lalsr1988

Trenton said:


> I'm all for doing it nasty, using safe words, etc.
> 
> I specifically didn't address that in my post. What I was addressing is the audacity and lack of respect and care that guy has for his wife (summed up in the quote I chose). He feels entitled and the only card he needs to carry for access to some wife ***** is his Alpha Card. Wooohoo and of course she LOVES IT, he's alpha man after all, She has no choice.
> 
> Y-u-u-u-u-C-K!!!



LOL. Audacious? Yes Very. Lack of care and respect I have for my wife? Hardly. As a matter of fact, my wife read my post and the responses and laughed her butt off. She and I both know what we want in our marriage,and care for each other very deeply. She was telling me the other day she wishes I would put her on the her on the bed and "just take her" more frequently during arguments. I know what is rape, and I know in my marriage it is not. I just refuse to be the weak male who gets handed treats like a dog. If that makes me sound like a Predator, then I'm sorry you misinterpreted my statement. I also really enjoyed you leaving out the part of the post where I said if she wants sex she will get it. It's not a one way street. I in no way advocate rape to the poster who said I should get banned. I just thank the Gods for the woman I have, because there is a lot I will not put up with. I also know most women wouldn't put up with me either..guess I'm not your modern male. My wife is perfect for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lalsr1988

Trenton said:


> I'm all for doing it nasty, using safe words, etc.
> 
> I specifically didn't address that in my post. What I was addressing is the audacity and lack of respect and care that guy has for his wife (summed up in the quote I chose). He feels entitled and the only card he needs to carry for access to some wife ***** is his Alpha Card. Wooohoo and of course she LOVES IT, he's alpha man after all, She has no choice.
> 
> Y-u-u-u-u-C-K!!!



You are right I feel entitled to my wife, as she feels entitled to me. We both refuse to beg for what is ours by the default of marriage. Only card I carry is myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

RDJ said:


> I will repeat. Bad marriage?
> 
> Best foot forward, take the high road and be your best person.
> 
> Invite to join through actions, not words.
> 
> Give it time, if they refuse to join, they will leave. Or you will grow to a level beyond them, fall out of love and no longer care about leaving them.
> 
> A lot of sh!t inbetween, but thats the basics.


Use a boundary, avoid a whole lot of shet and save a lot of time, energy and money.

A boundary like “I will give you my 100% commitment to working to make our marriage a happy and healthy one. But I will only do that on the condition that you do the same. That you give me your 100% commitment to making our marriage a happy and healthy one”.

If you don’t get that commitment then end the marriage. If you do get your wife’s 100% commitment then fitness test it with an action, an investment from your wife.


For me all else is like standing at the alter with the H saying “Yes! I do! I really 100% do!” and the wife responding “Well, maybe I do, maybe I don’t”. Imagine the life the H will have with a wife with that type of “commitment”. She has to be 100% in as well or it’s never going to work.


----------



## AFEH

RDJ, I hope you don’t take all this from me personally. There’s a few things I so disagree with on here. For example “Only work on yourself”. To take that literally and not look to the contributions a wife makes or doesn’t make, how her behaviour affects the marriage etc. for me is exceptionally wrong and doomed to failure of the marriage. Marriage is a partnership and should be treated as such with both partner’s pulling their own weight.


The other thing is this “I wont let it affect me”. For me this is crazy making stuff. This is how people suppress their emotions only to find them come out in angry, aggressive ways some time in the future. It’s is the avoidance of asserting yourself, the avoidance of confrontation and most certainly the avoidance of conflict that eventually creates deep and irresolvable problems within a marriage. I can tell you because with your way you are “sacrificing”, on your knee at the pedestal you have your wife so very high on, investing so very much with zero expectation of a return for all your hard work and dedication that you are setting yourself up to become one exceedingly bitter and resentful man in the future.

It’s is for me much better to accept that as a human our feelings are directly affected by those around us. To recognise that and to look to see if our feelings are valid, the correct response to the situation or not. And then to work our way through them until such a time they’re resolved and in the past so we can live within the present and plan and look forward to the future.



I used to have the same philosophy of life with my wife and marriage as you do. I succeeded very well in a lot of things and I succeeded in making myself a codependent because I too took your path through my marriage.


That’s why I speak out against “your way” your philosophy in these things because it’s the very way codependents are created.


----------



## RDJ

AFEH

Nothing personal at all.

In fact, I agree with you. I believe in taking the high road and all the things I express.

But mostly to turn the tide. Once the tide has turned (if it does not, it ends one way or another?) I strongly believe in applying heavy pressure, setting firm boundaries, and pushing for mutual goals and happiness.

Even if that itself push's the marriage apart.

In short, "If it can't be mutual, it can't be at all".

I appriciate your comments. You are a wise person indeed!


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## Frostrose

I feel like I should intervene now.My husband is lalsr.For the ones that say that my husband doesn't respect or care about me trust me he does.When he says he forces me on the bed he doesn't literally mean dragging me to the room or anything like that.When he "forces" me down to the bed its just one little light shove on the bed.During or after the argument he will tell me go to the room.I would be "angry" at him for just those 15seconds.Those 15 seconds I want to stay angry at him.During those arguments I'm always hoping that he will tell me to go to the room.That is our way of makeup sex.And its true what he says.When we aren't angry at each other we flirt alot till we can't hold no more.I don't want my husband begging for sex like a hungry dog.I never liked men that let their wives control them through that matter.It sickens me.Never in my life have I liked sissy men.When we both got married to each other we knew what we wanted.In my eyes he is the hunter and provider.I'm the nurturer,housewife,decision maker when it comes to spending money which I always do wisely.we have equal decision making when it comes to raising our family.And if I want sex from my husband I don't beg him. just me showing him that I want him right then and there and he gets the message.I won't make him beg or threaten to withhold sex just because he doesn't do something that's just plain sad.


----------



## AFEH

No need to defend your self or your husband. Personally, from experience I would delete your post if I were you or else you’re going to spend a long time defending your husband and yourself and you’ll just get deeper and deeper in it. 

If you found the post about your husband that offensive then report it as offensive. The mods here are seriously mature and excellent in these things.


----------



## Gaia

Ok what laslr is talking about is make up sex or angry sex... its not rape.... although by his wording he may have made it seem that way. I think he and his wife basically mean that they have sex regardless of how upset they are.. which is good because afterwards they have that feel good feeling and are better able to resolve problems... am I right or no lalsr?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anony2

Gaia said:


> Ok what laslr is talking about is make up sex or angry sex... its not rape.... although by his wording he may have made it seem that way. I think he and his wife basically mean that they have sex regardless of how upset they are.. which is good because afterwards they have that feel good feeling and are better able to resolve problems... am I right or no lalsr?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, but I disagree, sex is not an entitlement that one should expect from their partner. He and she might call it "angry sex" if they like, and that will last til the woman gets angry enough to call the cops on him. She can make every excuse she wants to (co-dependency at it's finest)...but I was raped by my ex and he did it for this very reason:

*Control* is not attractive in men, leadership is, which is what this thread is about.


----------



## lalsr1988

anony2 said:


> Sorry, but I disagree, sex is not an entitlement that one should expect from their partner. He and she might call it "angry sex" if they like, and that will last til the woman gets angry enough to call the cops on him. She can make every excuse she wants to (co-dependency at it's finest)...but I was raped by my ex and he did it for this very reason:
> 
> *Control* is not attractive in men, leadership is, which is what this thread is about.



One goes into marriage expecting sex right? I know I did., So yes, I am entitled to sex with my wife, as she is entitled to sex with me. Regardless if it is angry sex or not, if I want to have sex I will. More along the lines of "We are going to **ck and you are going to like it!"

There are no excuses, only facts here. I do not control my wife, we agree on nearly everything.


----------



## Anonymous07

chillymorn said:


> another take on this might be in a new relationship theres the newness stage where the woman tries harder to catch the man and then when hes caught or after the honeymoon stage wheres off the real women emerges.
> 
> 
> and she will slip back to her old self.





Wheels65 said:


> I think this is true of both men and women...while you are dating it can often be "this is who I am not"...


This would be a good reason to date a while before getting married. Those who rush into marriage may find this to be "true", but if you slowly get to know someone then you can marry someone who is truly being themselves. Also, it's fairly easy to see who "morphs" themselves into someone they think the man would want. I know a couple people like that and their boyfriends know about it, but for what ever reason they continue dating.


----------



## Gaia

Anony2 I never said sex was an entitlement. What I meant was.. if both are willing (which it seems they are?) Then it isn't rape. If both aren't willing and she was seriously against sex and he didn't back of.. then yes it is rape. Like someone else said... some people are into rough sex. That's all I was saying... it might be one of their kinks... of course like a lot.. I see he feels he is entitled to sex so...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton

Lalsr then perhaps it is your choice of words that is more offensive than your actual actions. It's nice to see that your wife is in it with you because I was concerned.

I will say, seeing a wife come on to defend her husband is interesting. I've seen it the other way around quite often.


----------



## anony2

lalsr1988 said:


> One goes into marriage expecting sex right? I know I did., So yes, I am entitled to sex with my wife, as she is entitled to sex with me. Regardless if it is angry sex or not, if I want to have sex I will. More along the lines of "We are going to **ck and you are going to like it!"
> 
> There are no excuses, only facts here. I do not control my wife, we agree on nearly everything.


I call BS. So does my hubby.


----------



## anony2

Gaia said:


> Anony2 I never said sex was an entitlement. What I meant was.. if both are willing (which it seems they are?) Then it isn't rape. If both aren't willing and she was seriously against sex and he didn't back of.. then yes it is rape. Like someone else said... some people are into rough sex. That's all I was saying... it might be one of their kinks... of course like a lot.. I see he feels he is entitled to sex so...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gaia, I didnt say that you did, but HE did say that it was an entitlement, he also said that he throws her on the bed and does what he wants NO MATTER what she says. If that is one of their kinks, then then they are treading on a fine line, like I said...one phone call away from jail. Rough sex is NOT the same as someone saying NO and the other person taking it anyways.


----------



## lalsr1988

anony2 said:


> I call BS. So does my hubby.


call BS all you want, doesn't change a thing


----------



## lalsr1988

anony2 said:


> Gaia, I didnt say that you did, but HE did say that it was an entitlement, he also said that he throws her on the bed and does what he wants NO MATTER what she says. If that is one of their kinks, then then they are treading on a fine line, like I said...one phone call away from jail. *Rough sex is NOT the same as someone saying NO* and the other person taking it anyways.



She doesn't say no, and I wouldn't put up with a woman who did, but that's me. If my wife was to deny me sex except for medical reasons, I would leave the marriage. Every bit of what I have said is true for my wife and I. But I'm not saying anything more on this, it's getting kind of redundant. We don't have to agree.


----------



## anony2

lalsr1988 said:


> All I will say, is that as a husband, I am not my wife's servent. I will not do her favors just so I can have sex. If I want sex, I'm going to get some from her. If she wants sex,she is going to get some from me. I loathe hearing that bs from a lot of women today, "If you do so and so, I will let you have some. " I am not a dog, to be handed treats for doing things. I went into my marriage thinking that sex will be had whenever either spouse wants, and that's exactly what it is for me. *I will not be told no.* Sometimes after or during a fight I will force her down on the bed. Resistance will last all of 15 seconds. After that she will get into it as much if not more than me. Then the rest of the day is dandy. Some of you guys really need to be more assertive and Alpha.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





lalsr1988 said:


> *She doesn't say no*, and I wouldn't put up with a woman who did, but that's me. If my wife was to deny me sex except for medical reasons, I would leave the marriage. Every bit of what I have said is true for my wife and I. But I'm not saying anything more on this, it's getting kind of redundant. We don't have to agree.


Now you are backpeddling.


----------



## lalsr1988

anony2 said:


> Now you are backpeddling.



She doesn't say no because I told her I will not be with a woman who says no.

I will not be told no, I told her so. So she never says no. Get it now?


----------



## Cosmos

lalsr1988 said:


> She doesn't say no because I told her I will not be with a woman who says no.
> 
> I will not be told no, I told her so. So she never says no. Get it now?


Hang on to her. You'd be hard pressed to find another like her, that's for sure...


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## anony2

lalsr1988 said:


> She doesn't say no because I told her I will not be with a woman who says no.
> 
> I will not be told no, I told her so. So she never says no. Get it now?


WOW...yeah, I get it, you threaten to leave her if she doesn't have sex with you so she does it out of fear of losing you. 

I think the OP is right on target.


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## mina

lalsr1988 said:


> She doesn't say no because I told her I will not be with a woman who says no.
> 
> I will not be told no, I told her so. So she never says no. Get it now?


I had this conversation with my DH very recently. I discovered TAM only about 2 months ago. I have been very surprised at the abuse the husbands put up with from their wives (yes I include withholding sex in "abuse") that I have learned about here. I had no idea this sort of thing went on, frankly. 

I asked DH would he have ever considered that it could happen that we had gotten married and then suddenly I started deciding (unilaterally) that sex would be on my terms, maybe none, maybe in exchange for household chores, etc? 

He said no. He would not have married me if he thought ever that might happen. He also said he would not be married to a woman who said no or withheld sex or exchanged sex for chores. 

He got married to have all the sex he wants with the woman he loves and lusts after. That was what he expected and that was what he was going to get. 

Maybe this sort of attitude makes the sort of man that gets all the sex he wants. 

I think lalsr1988 is onto something.


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## Gaia

Umm I have to disagree somewhat here. Man or woman... imo if they don't want it... they have the right to say no because it is their body after all. I have told my spouse no and he has always respected that. If he ever told me I had no choice... or he would never be with a woman who said no... I would reply with.. "well there's the door" he has told me no before as well and honestly I seem to get more bent out of shape about it then he does but I still respect his decision. I know not everyone shares my POV but that's how he and I see things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton

lalsr1988 said:


> She doesn't say no because I told her I will not be with a woman who says no.
> 
> I will not be told no, I told her so. So she never says no. Get it now?


You will not be told no? What does this mean exactly?

I do hope it's your lack of ability to communicate your love and loving feelings rather than your words being a summary of how you actually feel. Given your wife's response I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

I still have to ask you...is feeling disconnected or neglected by you a good enough reason to say no?

The problem I see with your stance is that it CLEARLY states your needs but it completely NEGLECTS her emotional needs.

Now, if she happens to be a unique woman whose emotional needs and desires are not closely in sync with how she feels about a relationship, then it's possible that the life you're living is satisfying for her.

However, why would you not want to delve a little deeper and be sure that her emotional needs are being met.

Your wife already voiced her opinion once so perhaps she can shed some light on this as well.

I have no problem with couples having different ways of dealing with things but I can tell you that from my experience with women and men, that without balance, one or the other will be feeling at a loss.

If you love your wife, I would think how she feels would be equally as important as how you feel about sex, your relationship and your overall paths in life.


----------



## karma*girl

^I agree with Gaia. 
My hubby went thru a period of no desire at all- (all is well again, thank goodness!)

But in that time, I would not have cared to push him to do anything he wasn't into. (Besides he probably wouldn't have gotten hard anyway, so I was kind of out of luck..)

Personally, I'd feel like a jerk trying to coerce him when I knew he was not up for it.

I didn't bug him & eventually things returned to normal.

Likewise, if I don't want it, for whatever reason, my man just says okay
(Granted that is not too often

He places zero pressure, which in turn, draws me to him, naturally.

I have offered myself in the past when I was not in the mood whatsoever & his response was, thanks babe, but if you're not into it, I sure as hell am not going to be! 

He's plays it well IMHO, I love him to death...(except for I hate him right now, lol! I have another thread on that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Gaia said:


> Ok what laslr is talking about is make up sex or angry sex... its not rape.... although by his wording he may have made it seem that way. I think he and his wife basically mean that they have sex regardless of how upset they are.. which is good because afterwards they have that feel good feeling and are better able to resolve problems... am I right or no lalsr?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That’s a part of the love glue that kept my wife and I together for over 4 decades. No matter how we were feeling, what the situation was between the two of us or what we were doing both of us were always up for sex. Moods, time of the month, guests in the house, driving somewhere or whatever if one of us wanted to do it, do it we would. My wife never and I really mean never denied me.

Of course I was mainly the initiator, I wonder what man wouldn’t have been with a woman as desirable as my wife. But then I got to wondering about that as well because I started to recognise the subtle (compared to mine) ways she initiated and wondered how many times I’d missed that in the past.

Being with the same woman for all that time I really don’t know if I’m any great shakes as a lover. I really don’t. But I do know when there is love, passion and desire for sex between a married couple then I truly believe that couple is truly blessed and have something that’s exceedingly special and to be protected and guarded.


Even with our last conflict that led to the breakdown of our marriage my wife initiated sex in her very subtle way. She looked immensely desirable and submissive in front of me and ready for me. I didn’t go there because I knew from experience and for a fact that it never solved our underlying problems. I tried to solve the problems, it didn’t work and that day was the last day I ever saw her again. Sad but very true.


Never had the angry sex though. That's not for me.


----------



## AFEH

mina said:


> I had this conversation with my DH very recently. I discovered TAM only about 2 months ago. I have been very surprised at the abuse the husbands put up with from their wives (yes I include withholding sex in "abuse") that I have learned about here. I had no idea this sort of thing went on, frankly.
> 
> I asked DH would he have ever considered that it could happen that we had gotten married and then suddenly I started deciding (unilaterally) that sex would be on my terms, maybe none, maybe in exchange for household chores, etc?
> 
> He said no. He would not have married me if he thought ever that might happen. He also said he would not be married to a woman who said no or withheld sex or exchanged sex for chores.
> 
> He got married to have all the sex he wants with the woman he loves and lusts after. That was what he expected and that was what he was going to get.
> 
> Maybe this sort of attitude makes the sort of man that gets all the sex he wants.
> 
> I think lalsr1988 is onto something.


Isn’t that what marriage is all about? Isn’t it all about Man being the great provider, the protector, the source of security, care and comfort to the woman he’s in love with so he gets all the desire, passion and sex he could ever wish for from the woman he loves? Why else would a man do such things? And then there’s the food! The dinners, cakes and puddings!


----------



## Gaia

Ouch... that's a sad story AFEH.. :/ your wife leaving that is....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Gaia said:


> Ouch... that's a sad story AFEH.. :/ your wife leaving that is....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I’d given up trying to change the parts of her that hurt me, at times very deeply. At times my wounds were so deep they’d take me months to heal. I’d learnt about boundaries and I told her something like, end that behaviour or else I will withdraw my love from you and our time together will come to an end.

That marked the end of my codependency. Her response was to trash my boundary and to later try and resolve the conflict between us with sex. Which was how conflict was “resolved” (it never was, it just went invisible, underground) in the past. This time I didn’t go there, with the sex.

That is the thing with codependents. It’s not until they establish healthy boundaries that they truly get to “see” the pathological (unchangeable and unchanging) behaviour of their spouse that is the cause of their abusing ways.

Then they can make a choice and it’s either live with the abusive behaviour and be guaranteed of being deeply wounded again in the future, or walk away from the marriage. I actually ran away. I couldn’t get away from her quickly enough because she’d just deeply wounded me again, about fifteen minutes after trying to initiate sex. It’s very complicated.


It’s why I say to RDJ you can do all the work in the world on yourself in attempts to make yourself a better man and to create a happy and healthy marriage, but if you have zero commitment from your wife to doing the same, then give up on your marriage.


----------



## Disappointedspouse

If you want a sexual relationship 100% agree.

If you want a long lasting relationship, disagree. I have been married for 11 years and have taken the blame for everything in my marriage just to keep it together. It accomplished having a good sexual relationship for those 11 years, resulting in sexual encounters with my wife 3+ times a week.

Here is the downside. I now resent my wife and she is at the point where she constantly emasculates me. In other words taking the blame for everything (it's the man's fault) made me a complete loser in my wife's eyes. She has very few nice things to say about me and is quick with nasty comments.

I personally wish I would not have taken the blame for stuff that was really not my fault or I was in the right to feel angry, jealous, frustrated. Cannot turn time back now, but live and learn. I have now stopped taking the blame and my wife has incredible resentment for me and no longer wishes to have sex.

So in my experience, letting the wife be right all the time (happy wife, happy life), means you get sex, but hate yourself and have no self-confidence.

Or feel great about yourself, be happy and push some of the relationship responsibilities to the wife and have no or little sex.

Personally, getting old enough that I would take the self respect 100 times over.


----------



## AFEH

Disappointedspouse said:


> If you want a sexual relationship 100% agree.
> 
> If you want a long lasting relationship, disagree. I have been married for 11 years and have taken the blame for everything in my marriage just to keep it together. It accomplished having a good sexual relationship for those 11 years, resulting in sexual encounters with my wife 3+ times a week.
> 
> Here is the downside. I now resent my wife and she is at the point where she constantly emasculates me. In other words taking the blame for everything (it's the man's fault) made me a complete loser in my wife's eyes. She has very few nice things to say about me and is quick with nasty comments.
> 
> I personally wish I would not have taken the blame for stuff that was really not my fault or I was in the right to feel angry, jealous, frustrated. Cannot turn time back now, but live and learn. I have now stopped taking the blame and my wife has incredible resentment for me and no longer wishes to have sex.
> 
> So in my experience, letting the wife be right all the time (happy wife, happy life), means you get sex, but hate yourself and have no self-confidence.
> 
> Or feel great about yourself, be happy and push some of the relationship responsibilities to the wife and have no or little sex.
> 
> Personally, getting old enough that I would take the self respect 100 times over.


Believe me I very much wanted a sexual relationship, amongst other things such as good company, good food, a responsible woman financially and in other things, a reliable and dedicated woman etc. etc. We tend to get what we deserve in life and I deserved and got one heck of a lot. Including sex anytime I wanted. It’s very much a part of the Man I am. I needed sex in my life to be happy and content.

And believe me when I say I never but never took the “blame” for anything that I was not responsible for and took the blame for everything I was. Not only in my marriage but in my work as well. If you did that then you were a fool. And I reckon you know it.


I have a massive sense of justice in these things and have done ever since I was knee high to a grass hopper. I stand my ground, I am unmoveable like a reinforced concrete wall, a nuclear bunker in the face of injustice.


----------



## MEM2020

Disappointed,
I cannot speak for anyone else - only myself. I am certain that for us - if I had traded self respect for sex, it would have been a fast track to celibacy. 

For you - what needs to happen now is you need to demand respect. Not by getting angry/combative - but by:
- pointing out when she treats you in a way she would not tolerate in reverse 
- withdrawing/becoming indifferent to her requests when she is disrespectful and then gets aggressive when you point it out


Does your W do this stuff:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27179-boundary-testing-handbook.html





Disappointedspouse said:


> If you want a sexual relationship 100% agree.
> 
> If you want a long lasting relationship, disagree. I have been married for 11 years and have taken the blame for everything in my marriage just to keep it together. It accomplished having a good sexual relationship for those 11 years, resulting in sexual encounters with my wife 3+ times a week.
> 
> Here is the downside. I now resent my wife and she is at the point where she constantly emasculates me. In other words taking the blame for everything (it's the man's fault) made me a complete loser in my wife's eyes. She has very few nice things to say about me and is quick with nasty comments.
> 
> I personally wish I would not have taken the blame for stuff that was really not my fault or I was in the right to feel angry, jealous, frustrated. Cannot turn time back now, but live and learn. I have now stopped taking the blame and my wife has incredible resentment for me and no longer wishes to have sex.
> 
> So in my experience, letting the wife be right all the time (happy wife, happy life), means you get sex, but hate yourself and have no self-confidence.
> 
> Or feel great about yourself, be happy and push some of the relationship responsibilities to the wife and have no or little sex.
> 
> Personally, getting old enough that I would take the self respect 100 times over.


----------



## lalsr1988

anony2 said:


> WOW...yeah, I get it, you threaten to leave her if she doesn't have sex with you so she does it out of fear of losing you.
> 
> I think the OP is right on target.


No, I told her before we married...Is it so difficult to understand?


----------



## AFEH

lalsr1988 said:


> No, I told her before we married...Is it so difficult to understand?


There are those type of people who believe what they want to believe, no matter what the truth of the matter is and no matter how many different ways you try and communicate that truth.

They are called "judgmental". Get it?


----------



## Disappointedspouse

Thanks, my spouse fits that description.

Typically, she treats her friends better than our entire family. She only gets angry and shows her temper on her family not her friends.


----------



## MEM2020

Bob,
I have been thinking about the whole "love language" thing and just realized some things in the context of this thread. Tell me if this makes sense to you. 

When a marriage goes off the rails - someone - has to initiate the "repair". For the sake of this thread we are going to make that person the husband - and I am good with that. 

And it is also true that I actually think there is a sequence, a repair sequence, that makes sense. 

1. First (like what they teach doctors) do no harm. This simply means stop love busting. And loosely speaking this means stop losing your temper, saying inappropriate things - even when provoked - and stop doing anything that is not responsible. 

2. Shortly after you accomplish (1), stop letting your W treat you in a disrespectful manner. This is critical AND it has to happen before you start being more loving in her love languages. If you do NOT do this prior to transmitting love on her frequency - you are sending a terribly mixed message which is: Stop being disrespectful (what you say) and I am going to be more loving to you in this time frame even though you are treating me in a manner that a man with self respect would not tolerate. 

3. AFTER and only AFTER you persistently, firmly and determinedly get your W to stop being disrespectful/love busting to YOU, then you begin the love language phase. And you do it in a very careful way because:

Here's the rub. I realized a long time ago that in one core way, love languages are NOT all created equally. In fact, they span a frightening and possibly terrible spectrum. 

I will list them in order from one end of the spectrum to the other and then make my observation about sequence. 
1. Gifts
2. Acts of service 
3. Words of affirmation
4. Quality time
5. Physical touch/intimacy and sex

The spectrum is mutuality. And frankly, when looked at in that way, these love languages often tell a frightening tale right out of the gate. 
1. Gifts: Nothing has a lower mutuality "in general". It is possible to integrate a gift into your marriage if it is functional, for instance a piece of sports equipment for a sport you and your W both love. In general though: Gifts are entirely unidirectional AND the giver of the gift could just as easily be a friend/family member as a husband. 
2. Acts of service: Same thing. Unidirectional and not unique to a marriage. 
3. Words of affirmation: They ARE unidirectional. And they also run the gamut in terms of . Comments about love/attractiveness/desirability are generally specific to the marriage. But most everything else is not. Which means they could just as easily come from colleagues at work, friends as from a H. 
4. Quality time: This IS inherently mutual. By definition, you are doing something together. You can "skew" the mutuality by throwing a lot of money into the mix (expensive dinner) at which point you have blended (4) and (1). Still - quality time is generally a good thing. 
5. Touch/intimate touch and sex: Highly mutual at minimum, totally mutual (ideally) where sex is concerned. 

So when commencing this phase, if your love language is touch, and hers are gifts and acts of service, you have to be careful. In fact - and this is a broad brush but I believe an accurate one: 
If your spouse's love languages are: gifts, acts of service and words of affirmation - and quality time and touch are low to non-existent to them, your odds of repair are radically lower. Because that means they mainly love what YOU do for THEM, as opposed to loving "core" you. 

Does this make any sense? 

If so, somehow the man in this situation needs to find a way to make quality time a love language. If he can't do that, it is not clear how he can actually "reboot" a low love, low sex/sexless marriage. 







AFEH said:


> Believe me I very much wanted a sexual relationship, amongst other things such as good company, good food, a responsible woman financially and in other things, a reliable and dedicated woman etc. etc. We tend to get what we deserve in life and I deserved and got one heck of a lot. Including sex anytime I wanted. It’s very much a part of the Man I am. I needed sex in my life to be happy and content.
> 
> And believe me when I say I never but never took the “blame” for anything that I was not responsible for and took the blame for everything I was. Not only in my marriage but in my work as well. If you did that then you were a fool. And I reckon you know it.
> 
> 
> I have a massive sense of justice in these things and have done ever since I was knee high to a grass hopper. I stand my ground, I am unmoveable like a reinforced concrete wall, a nuclear bunker in the face of injustice.


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> Disappointed,
> I cannot speak for anyone else - only myself. I am certain that for us - if I had traded self respect for sex, it would have been a fast track to celibacy.
> 
> For you - what needs to happen now is you need to demand respect. Not by getting angry/combative - but by:
> - pointing out when she treats you in a way she would not tolerate in reverse
> - withdrawing/becoming indifferent to her requests when she is disrespectful and then gets aggressive when you point it out
> 
> 
> Does your W do this stuff:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27179-boundary-testing-handbook.html


For me he has to look to see how he lost her respect and he has to be totally and utterly honest with himself. If for example he has been exceedingly manipulative, deceitful and two faced in order to get his end away then he’s far better off reading NMMNG than he ever will be “demanding respect” from his wife.


Respect is normally a quality we assign even to complete strangers. We respect their “personal space”, we respect their rights to free speech etc. Without that natural and underlying respect how would we go about shopping, watching football within a crowd of thousands.

So respect is something we have from another from the outset. From that latent level of “stranger respect” things can either go up or down dependent upon what we discover about the person. The guys lost even that latent level of respect she’d give to complete strangers.

Unless she’s a complete nutcase, that’s not her fault, it’s his fault. The way to get her respect back is to change his values and beliefs and from that changes in his behaviour will come.

But he does need to be totally and utterly honest and he does need to stop blaming his wife for her not respecting him.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes. Respect needs to be earned - and then it can be demanded. 

Doing that in reverse - is a train wreck a minimum - and possibly an unwanted divorce. 




AFEH said:


> For me he has to look to see how he lost her respect and he has to be totally and utterly honest with himself. If for example he has been exceedingly manipulative, deceitful and two faced in order to get his end away then he’s far better off reading NMMNG than he ever will be “demanding respect” from his wife.


----------



## Disappointedspouse

I lost respect because I took the blame for things that were clearly not my fault. This was to make my wife feel better about the situation.

For example, My wife was talking inappropriately to another male, the exact words were not important, but the gist of the conversation was about him pulling out of her, etc. I ignored it initially as she was obvisouly trying to start a confrontation. Most likely to substantiate the BS she had previously told her friends about me (her friends were close by). Then again later I walked by and she was pulling the slot machine handling saying something like, it's time to pull out. Again she was clearly trying to start a confrontation.

Later that night she brought up the situation and how funny this guy's joke was. I said, "sure".

It wasn't a joke, she was being a jerk on purpose to push my buttons.

Eventually, just like in the link on another thread about "Emotional Intelligience" she pushed enough buttons and BOOM! I exploded with all this crap that was bottled up. Which then prompts the apoligy because I was angry and was not so kind. She then proceeds to pour fuel on the fire, by saying it was nothing, just a joke. 

It was clearly testing boundaries as the link suggested. I of course did not know that, I just thought she was a mega b!tch and lost trust and respect for her.

To make matters worse she would give me the silent treatment until I apolgized for my anger and said, yeah it was a joke and I over re-acted.

In retrospect and in the future with hard work, this is how that situation will be handled (100% it will occur again in some manner). Immediately, I will indicate to my spouse and offending party that type of conduct is inappropriate and not humourous at all and will not be tolerated. Then I will walk away and that will be that.

Later when my wife tries to pass it off as a joke, I will inform her that it is unaccetpable that she treats me in this manner and I will not accept it period (in a calm voice).


----------



## MEM2020

When your W does something like this - you just look at her and say "Hey" in a sharp tone - but not a loud voice. And then give her a cold look. And when she gets aggressive you just stay silent and shake your head as if in disbelief. And then YOU walk away and after that you give HER the silent treatment until she responds. Graphic sexual innuendo with other men is not ok. 





Disappointedspouse said:


> I lost respect because I took the blame for things that were clearly not my fault. This was to make my wife feel better about the situation.
> 
> For example, My wife was talking inappropriately to another male, the exact words were not important, but the gist of the conversation was about him pulling out of her, etc. I ignored it initially as she was obvisouly trying to start a confrontation. Most likely to substantiate the BS she had previously told her friends about me (her friends were close by). Then again later I walked by and she was pulling the slot machine handling saying something like, it's time to pull out. Again she was clearly trying to start a confrontation.
> 
> Later that night she brought up the situation and how funny this guy's joke was. I said, "sure".
> 
> It wasn't a joke, she was being a jerk on purpose to push my buttons.
> 
> Eventually, just like in the link on another thread about "Emotional Intelligience" she pushed enough buttons and BOOM! I exploded with all this crap that was bottled up. Which then prompts the apoligy because I was angry and was not so kind. She then proceeds to pour fuel on the fire, by saying it was nothing, just a joke.
> 
> It was clearly testing boundaries as the link suggested. I of course did not know that, I just thought she was a mega b!tch and lost trust and respect for her.
> 
> To make matters worse she would give me the silent treatment until I apolgized for my anger and said, yeah it was a joke and I over re-acted.
> 
> In retrospect and in the future with hard work, this is how that situation will be handled (100% it will occur again in some manner). Immediately, I will indicate to my spouse and offending party that type of conduct is inappropriate and not humourous at all and will not be tolerated. Then I will walk away and that will be that.
> 
> Later when my wife tries to pass it off as a joke, I will inform her that it is unaccetpable that she treats me in this manner and I will not accept it period (in a calm voice).


----------



## AFEH

MEM,
Deep stuff isn’t. Most especially the exceedingly complex love languages paradigm with all it’s complex dynamics.

But from the very outset? Yes. Someone has to lead. And based on my experience and unfortunately many failures I say the leader says something like …. 

_“I want to do whatever I can to make our marriage a happy and healthy one. I want to discover the ingredients, structure and dynamics of what produces a happy and healthy marriage and do whatever I can to make that happen in my marriage. I want to take you on this journey of discovery with me because you are the one I love and the one person out of everyone else in the world I have chosen to spend the rest of my life with. There is nobody else for me and nothing more important in my life that I want to do and accomplish.

Will you join me on that journey? Will you give me the same commitment that I have given you? Will you give me your 100% commitment and involvement to making our marriage a happy and healthy place for the two of us to live until one of us comes to the end of our days?”._

I even tried that by asking my wife to start our new journey by retaking our vows and going on a second honeymoon. I had it all costed, two weeks in the Maldives in a hut a metre above the Indian Ocean, the type of beach holiday she loves.

She turned me down but even then we stayed together for another seven years or so. I asked her again to retake our vows and again she turned me down citing all sorts of reasons. I was a real fool. I just didn’t know how deceptive and two faced she was being. That’s part of the problem with being a really good guy, an excellent provider, they never want to let you go even though they wont participate in marriage improvement.



All the above is why I say things are wrong here, this just work on yourself stuff. A happy and healthy marriage needs the 100% commitment and involvement for both spouses for it to come about.

For example, if the husband does need to change then he must get his wife’s commitment to help him change. That’s one of the key ingredients of a marriage, helping the other to grow, one the reasons why it’s called a partnership.

If he doesn’t get his wife’s commitment to help him change, then she will forever keep him as the man he was in her mind, not the man he has become. And in that way far from helping him grow she will “stunt” his growth. One of the reasons why I left my wife and have never made any attempt at reconciliation.


Bit long winded that. But that start of the change journey, how it’s started is exceptionally important.

The love languages are something different again ….


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> Yes. Respect needs to be earned - and then it can be demanded.
> 
> Doing that in reverse - is a train wreck a minimum - and possibly an unwanted divorce.


Sorry MEM, I’m still in disagreement.

I feel I know myself well. I know for a fact I’m a good provider and that my heart is in the right place. I know my motivations for my behaviour are sound and completely within the bounds of accepted morality. I know my conscience is a healthy one and I know I’m a man of credibility and integrity. I’m kind and respectful to not only the young and elderly, weak and infirm, but to everyone I meet as I go through my life (sometimes I drop the ball there). I know my faults as I know them, I don’t know my faults as others know them.


If a person does not respect the type of man I am and the type of qualities, values and beliefs that a man such as I am represents, they can feck off. And that includes my wife. I would never resort to demanding respect from anybody and that includes my wife.


----------



## Gaia

MEM... I'm not exactly sure what your trying to get at with the love languages.. but I would like to say this. Sure a friend, family member, ect can give gifts, a compliment or hold open a door for you but... if your like me... it means a hell of a lot more comming from your spouse then any of them. There is not the same emotional attatchment on say.. "your eyes are gorgeous" if its from a family member as compared to comming from a spouse.

I don't know about anyone else but .. beings as how my main love language is acts of service... I tend not to perform much of this with friends or family members... whereas with my spouse... I will go all out for him in this area. Of course I recently discovered that his love language is primarily physical touch so I have begun to make more of an effort into showing him love that way.. since it would mean more to him if I .. say.. gave him a hug as compared to whipping him up a dinner or ironing his clothes...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Disappointedspouse said:


> I lost respect because I took the blame for things that were clearly not my fault. This was to make my wife feel better about the situation.
> 
> For example, My wife was talking inappropriately to another male, the exact words were not important, but the gist of the conversation was about him pulling out of her, etc. I ignored it initially as she was obvisouly trying to start a confrontation. Most likely to substantiate the BS she had previously told her friends about me (her friends were close by). Then again later I walked by and she was pulling the slot machine handling saying something like, it's time to pull out. Again she was clearly trying to start a confrontation.
> 
> Later that night she brought up the situation and how funny this guy's joke was. I said, "sure".
> 
> It wasn't a joke, she was being a jerk on purpose to push my buttons.
> 
> Eventually, just like in the link on another thread about "Emotional Intelligience" she pushed enough buttons and BOOM! I exploded with all this crap that was bottled up. Which then prompts the apoligy because I was angry and was not so kind. She then proceeds to pour fuel on the fire, by saying it was nothing, just a joke.
> 
> It was clearly testing boundaries as the link suggested. I of course did not know that, I just thought she was a mega b!tch and lost trust and respect for her.
> 
> To make matters worse she would give me the silent treatment until I apolgized for my anger and said, yeah it was a joke and I over re-acted.
> 
> In retrospect and in the future with hard work, this is how that situation will be handled (100% it will occur again in some manner). Immediately, I will indicate to my spouse and offending party that type of conduct is inappropriate and not humourous at all and will not be tolerated. Then I will walk away and that will be that.
> 
> Later when my wife tries to pass it off as a joke, I will inform her that it is unaccetpable that she treats me in this manner and I will not accept it period (in a calm voice).


I do hope she has many fine qualities that’s keeping you with her.


----------



## AFEH

MEM, I chuckled when reading your observations about the love languages. I think you’ve missed the point.

It’s about what “value” we place in these things. And in that there is no order of mutuality!

Plus it doesn’t matter where the love language comes from, we will love that person if they bring that particular gift, love language into our world. If one of our love languages is physical touch and we’ve a woman friend that likes an affectionate hug that could at an instant turn into a cuddle, watch out because she’s loving you! Wife’s love language is gifts and she starts baking cakes for a male friend, watch out big time because she’s loving him!!!

I was a big time achiever type and as such needed my recognition, affirmation/appreciation. Did I get that at home from my wife? No because it wasn’t one of her love languages! But I made sure I got it and I got it from work, it was an immense driver and motivator for me to be affirmed as top country in Europe or whatever my objective was.

So we do get our needs met, unfortunately not always from our partner in life.

And of course people love their spouse for what their spouse does for them! My wife’s main love language was most definitely acts of service. I never saw love as a service! It used to get to me “She could be doing these things for anybody!”. And that’s the point, she’s doing what she does for you, not for anybody else! That’s why I say to people count your blessings and look after them because otherwise you’ll sure lose them.

What’s the very first thing a person does when they’re hurt? First off instinctually they’ll get angry, overt anger or wait and get even later (covert anger and aggression).

For the overtly angry person, it’s done, dusted and in the past. It’s different for the overt anger/aggressor. They become resentful and then start withdrawing their love, taking their love away. An acts of service/gifts type person will stop baking the cakes. I was a fool, ignorant and didn’t see it, didn’t pick up on its significance.


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> So when commencing this phase, if your love language is touch, and hers are gifts and acts of service, you have to be careful. In fact - and this is a broad brush but I believe an accurate one:
> If your spouse's love languages are: gifts, acts of service and words of affirmation - and quality time and touch are low to non-existent to them, your odds of repair are radically lower. Because that means they mainly love what YOU do for THEM, as opposed to loving "core" you.
> 
> Does this make any sense?
> 
> If so, somehow the man in this situation needs to find a way to make quality time a love language. If he can't do that, it is not clear how he can actually "reboot" a low love, low sex/sexless marriage.


I chuckled again when I read this.

Of course your spouse loves you for what you do for them! If my wife gives me her sex, I love her because she gives me her sex. If she cooks me a home made meal from fresh ingredients, I love her because of the meals I get. I love her even more when she cooks me my favourite cakes while knowing full well if they last more than a day or two it would be some kind of miracle. If my wife gives me good companionship, if I enjoy being in her company and if she doesn’t give me a hard time. I love my wife. 

It’s when they stop doing things for you that they’ve started to withdraw their love from you. Problem with that is a lot of women don’t know how blind in these things men are. So we don’t get their “messages” until perhaps her love is fully withdrawn. Mine however never totally withdrew her sex from me. I don't believe she'll ever stop loving me but she certainly turned her love for me off.



Your wife married you for what she believed you would do for her. There is absolutely no doubt about that. She had trust in you and faith in you, she believed in you. She believed that you would be the provider, the carer, her safety and security while she was going through the child rearing, nurturing phase of her life. Believe me she checked you out, fitness tested you very big time long before you asked her to marry you and long before she said yes.


----------



## anony2

AFEH said:


> *There are those type of people who believe what they want to believe, no matter what the truth of the matter is and no matter how many different ways you try and communicate that trut*h.
> 
> *They* are called *"judgmental"*. Get it?


The irony of this is astounding...

:rofl:


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> If so, somehow the man in this situation needs to find a way to make quality time a love language. If he can't do that, it is not clear how he can actually "reboot" a low love, low sex/sexless marriage.


That sounds to me like shet testing has entered the marriage. “_You wont give me quality time, I wont give you sex”._ The marriage is doomed once shet testing has entered into it and it will need a massive surgical intervention if love is to have another chance.

It’s kind of like the unwritten contract has been broken and stamped on. It’s indicative that big time resentment lurks within the walls of the marriage. That instead of love, it’s anger, dislike, bitterness and resentment that has the upper hand. Love will stay away, outside of the walls of the marriage, looking in and waiting for the resentment to go by the wise and intelligent application of forgiveness.

Even if that forgiveness removes just a little of the deep clouds and darkness of bitterness and resentment, love is such an opportunist, such an optimist that it will spring into action and try again. There may even be many false starts, it just depends on how strong the love that’s waiting to get in is.

But if the bitterness and resentment doesn’t go away then love will eventually take itself off and find other ways to express itself.


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> If your spouse's love languages are: gifts, acts of service and words of affirmation - and quality time and touch are low to non-existent to them, your odds of repair are radically lower. *Because that means they mainly love what YOU do for THEM, as opposed to loving "core" you. *


We are what we do MEM. The behaviour we exhibit externally is directly related to what we value and believe in at the deepest parts of our psyche, at our core.



Unless of course we're being two faced and deceitful, have a multiple personality or multiple personas.


----------



## MEM2020

Bob,
My wording was backward. I meant to write:

If the H cannot create a situation where the W views spending quality time with HIM as one of her love languages, I believe the chances of a reboot are very low. 

The reason for that is simple - if you subtract quality time and touch, what you have left are:
- gifts
- compliments and
- acts of service

I recognize that for a man, acts of service are core. That said, the 3 items above are low in mutuality. They make it all too easy for your spouse to move completely into the role of evaluator/critic. Worse, it becomes easy to perceive your spouse as servant, not partner. Bad dynamic. 

If you add quality time to the mix, and leverage that as the basis for the reboot, it inherently creates a level of participation. 





AFEH said:


> That sounds to me like shet testing has entered the marriage. “_You wont give me quality time, I wont give you sex”._ The marriage is doomed once shet testing has entered into it and it will need a massive surgical intervention if love is to have another chance.
> 
> It’s kind of like the unwritten contract has been broken and stamped on. It’s indicative that big time resentment lurks within the walls of the marriage. That instead of love, it’s anger, dislike, bitterness and resentment that has the upper hand. Love will stay away, outside of the walls of the marriage, looking in and waiting for the resentment to go by the wise and intelligent application of forgiveness.
> 
> Even if that forgiveness removes just a little of the deep clouds and darkness of bitterness and resentment, love is such an opportunist, such an optimist that it will spring into action and try again. There may even be many false starts, it just depends on how strong the love that’s waiting to get in is.
> 
> But if the bitterness and resentment doesn’t go away then love will eventually take itself off and find other ways to express itself.


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> Bob,
> My wording was backward. I meant to write:
> 
> If the H cannot create a situation where the W views spending quality time with HIM as one of her love languages, I believe the chances of a reboot are very low.
> 
> The reason for that is simple - if you subtract quality time and touch, what you have left are:
> - gifts
> - compliments and
> - acts of service
> 
> I recognize that for a man, acts of service are core. That said, the 3 items above are low in mutuality. They make it all too easy for your spouse to move completely into the role of evaluator/critic. Worse, it becomes easy to perceive your spouse as servant, not partner. Bad dynamic.
> 
> If you add quality time to the mix, and leverage that as the basis for the reboot, it inherently creates a level of participation.


I don’t know MEM. I am confused about what your point is.

I think what you are saying is that if the H initiates a rebuild then he will need quality time with his wife to do that? But if his wife will not spend quality time with him, then he is not able to rebuild his marriage?

It’s in these things that we must look past the words of people and into their actions and behaviour.

For example if a wife doesn’t want to spend time with her H, quality time, that means she not only doesn’t love him but she doesn’t like him either. That she just doesn’t want to be in his company unless for essential and unavoidable reasons. That maybe she even disrespects and actively dislikes the guy!

In fact if the guy has asked for quality time and his wife says “no”, she just told him in no uncertain terms that she doesn’t love him! It’s just that she’s being two faced about it because she wants to keep what he provides to her.


I fitness tested my wife as in “Will you marry me again, retake our vows?” “No. I don’t need to do that more than once”.

What she really meant was “I don’t love you enough to re commit to you for the long term. I have other plans for that. But you are good enough and provide me with enough to stay with you for the time being”.

Her dream is to live in Australia long term, not to live with me longer term. I found it out by spying on her. I could not believe her duplicity.

So instead of pushing the issue of quality time, the guy should take it for a fact that his wife neither likes or loves him, probably disrespects him and is betraying him by staying with him! And end the marriage.


----------



## MEM2020

Bob,
Different filters - result in different images imprinting our retinas. 

If the W doesn't like spending quality time with her H, he needs to perform an exercise to understand the prognosis. 

The exercise goes something like this:
1. Self assess relative to his early behavior when they were first together. Was he different, more fun, more of an edge back then? 
2. Compare how is he with his W vs. with his close friends. 

It may be that his behavior is causing her lack of enthusiasm for quality time. If so, he addresses that first and then starts inviting her to do things. 

IME if he can find things she likes and that he is GOOD AT, those are best. This creates the bonding effect of fun, and the admiration that comes from being with someone as they excel. 




AFEH said:


> I don’t know MEM. I am confused about what your point is.
> 
> I think what you are saying is that if the H initiates a rebuild then he will need quality time with his wife to do that? But if his wife will not spend quality time with him, then he is not able to rebuild his marriage?
> 
> It’s in these things that we must look past the words of people and into their actions and behaviour.
> 
> For example if a wife doesn’t want to spend time with her H, quality time, that means she not only doesn’t love him but she doesn’t like him either. That she just doesn’t want to be in his company unless for essential and unavoidable reasons. That maybe she even disrespects and actively dislikes the guy!
> 
> In fact if the guy has asked for quality time and his wife says “no”, she just told him in no uncertain terms that she doesn’t love him! It’s just that she’s being two faced about it because she wants to keep what he provides to her.
> 
> 
> I fitness tested my wife as in “Will you marry me again, retake our vows?” “No. I don’t need to do that more than once”.
> 
> What she really meant was “I don’t love you enough to re commit to you for the long term. I have other plans for that. But you are good enough and provide me with enough to stay with you for the time being”.
> 
> Her dream is to live in Australia long term, not to live with me longer term. I found it out by spying on her. I could not believe her duplicity.
> 
> So instead of pushing the issue of quality time, the guy should take it for a fact that his wife neither likes or loves him, probably disrespects him and is betraying him by staying with him! And end the marriage.


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> Bob,
> Different filters - result in different images imprinting our retinas.
> 
> If the W doesn't like spending quality time with her H, he needs to perform an exercise to understand the prognosis.
> 
> The exercise goes something like this:
> 1. Self assess relative to his early behavior when they were first together. Was he different, more fun, more of an edge back then?
> 2. Compare how is he with his W vs. with his close friends.
> 
> It may be that his behavior is causing her lack of enthusiasm for quality time. If so, he addresses that first and then starts inviting her to do things.
> 
> IME if he can find things she likes and that he is GOOD AT, those are best. This creates the bonding effect of fun, and the admiration that comes from being with someone as they excel.


MEM I tried your way. It didn’t work. Now if I asked my wife for quality time and she refused, that would be it. It would be over for me.

Maybe it’s just me MEM. For example in the past I asked my wife to attend MC with me on a couple of occasions in the bad times. She just refused to do so. But still I went on in my marriage.

This last time round I made it a requirement that in order for us to stay together we go through ten sessions of MC. That was one of my boundaries, one of my requirements, a fitness test. Again she refused but this time when she did I withdrew my love from her. I told her I would do that, she knew what the consequences would be. I don’t think she actually believed I’d do it.


I will say it time again. In order for a marriage to be successful it needs the total commitment of both partners. If the wife wont even commit to say a few hours a week of quality time together from the outset then give up.


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> Bob,
> Different filters - result in different images imprinting our retinas.


It’s those imprints MEM. Because you’ve mentioned them I know you know the power and significance of them. But the imprints are very much deeper than our retinas, they go far past them and deeper into the very core of our psyche, of our mind. It’s in there that we discover who we really are, who a person really is.


In long term marriages that imprint that we have of our partner grows and grows as time goes by and we “experience” them, experience living with them. In really long term marriages that imprint is such, so very complicated, complex and so very meaningful that it’s like we have our partner living right there inside of us. Two becomes one.

Take an Uncle of mine. After my Aunt died he died within three months or so. He didn’t die of ill health, he died of a broken heart because he was empty inside and had no reason to live anymore.

These things are why separation after a very long term marriage are so exceedingly traumatic, full of pain because you know the person inside of you has died. We literally mourn their death. Even though they are still alive. Crazy or what!



What I’m trying to express is that it doesn’t really matter how much the H changes because his wife will always see who he was, not who he has become. Such is the depth, power and significance of imprints.

His wife can get past that, past the historical imprint and I’m certain some do and create a new imprint. But I am totally and absolutely convinced that in order for her to do that, she too must be 100% committed to her husband as he is to her.


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## Dadof3greatkids

AFEH said:


> It’s those imprints MEM. Because you’ve mentioned them I know you know the power and significance of them. But the imprints are very much deeper than our retinas, they go far past them and deeper into the very core of our psyche, of our mind. It’s in there that we discover who we really are, who a person really is.
> 
> 
> In long term marriages that imprint that we have of our partner grows and grows as time goes by and we “experience” them, experience living with them. In really long term marriages that imprint is such, so very complicated, complex and so very meaningful that it’s like we have our partner living right there inside of us. Two becomes one.
> 
> Take an Uncle of mine. After my Aunt died he died within three months or so. He didn’t die of ill health, he died of a broken heart because he was empty inside and had no reason to live anymore.
> 
> These things are why separation after a very long term marriage are so exceedingly traumatic, full of pain because you know the person inside of you has died. We literally mourn their death. Even though they are still alive. Crazy or what!
> 
> 
> 
> What I’m trying to express is that it doesn’t really matter how much the H changes because his wife will always see who he was, not who he has become. Such is the depth, power and significance of imprints.
> 
> His wife can get past that, past the historical imprint and I’m certain some do and create a new imprint. But I am totally and absolutely convinced that in order for her to do that, she too must be 100% committed to her husband as he is to her.


AFEH - I've been taking a break from TAM for a while, but just checking in now. Not sure, but you seem to have dropped the Awareness - De Mello way of looking at the world. You seem VERY bitter and your mantra appears to be "Get a 100% commitment from your wife to do what you want her to do or leave the b*tch immediately" philosophy. I see this backfiring in many instances and destroying marriages that could be rebuilt. 

It's one thing to be confident, strong and not tolerate disrespect. It's another to say "I've changed as a person, you need to change RIGHT NOW and agree to go away with me for a 2-week honeymoon or I'm done with you." 

I hope all is well with you. You might want to take a look at Awareness again...


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## anonim

anony2 said:


> I call BS. So does my hubby.


eh?


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## anonim

mina said:


> I had this conversation with my DH very recently. I discovered TAM only about 2 months ago. I have been very surprised at the abuse the husbands put up with from their wives (yes I include withholding sex in "abuse") that I have learned about here. I had no idea this sort of thing went on, frankly.
> 
> I asked DH would he have ever considered that it could happen that we had gotten married and then suddenly I started deciding (unilaterally) that sex would be on my terms, maybe none, maybe in exchange for household chores, etc?
> 
> He said no. He would not have married me if he thought ever that might happen. He also said he would not be married to a woman who said no or withheld sex or exchanged sex for chores.
> 
> He got married to have all the sex he wants with the woman he loves and lusts after. That was what he expected and that was what he was going to get.
> 
> Maybe this sort of attitude makes the sort of man that gets all the sex he wants.
> 
> I think lalsr1988 is onto something.


it might be that if you look for a partner with specific goals in mind, you will either find that partner or bust.


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## anonim

lalsr1988 said:


> No, I told her before we married...Is it so difficult to understand?


as in; those are your boundary's?

If so, then what you mean by your OP was something like, 'you wont accept a refuser for a wife,' that is a fair enough boundary; It might make the pickings slimmer but if you get what you want, then you get what you want.

Your wording in the OP was incendiary and provocative though, and I think probably intentionally so, and you should have some consideration for the other members who might be triggered by your words.


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## AFEH

Dadof3greatkids said:


> AFEH - I've been taking a break from TAM for a while, but just checking in now. Not sure, but you seem to have dropped the Awareness - De Mello way of looking at the world. You seem VERY bitter and your mantra appears to be "Get a 100% commitment from your wife to do what you want her to do or leave the b*tch immediately" philosophy. I see this backfiring in many instances and destroying marriages that could be rebuilt.
> 
> It's one thing to be confident, strong and not tolerate disrespect. It's another to say "I've changed as a person, you need to change RIGHT NOW and agree to go away with me for a 2-week honeymoon or I'm done with you."
> 
> I hope all is well with you. You might want to take a look at Awareness again...


You’ve misunderstood big time. But I like to be confronted as it makes me take a look at myself “Am I less aware now than I was before?”. The following may be seen as a very strong case for denial!


There follows a very long story. If a marriage is to be improved it needs commitment from both partners. The lets retake our vows was a test of my wife’s commitment to me and therefore our marriage. And in that way it was a Fitness Test.

But it was a two way Fitness Test because I was also testing as to whether my wife believed I was still a fit enough man to be married to her.

It’s complicated, I hope you’ve understood. I’m an exceedingly deep and committed man who was deeply in love with his wife and I will walk the last mile. But when do you know you’ve just walked it such that you make it that last mile? Which is what I’m on about, the quicker you find it out, the better for all concerned. Are you wasting your time, money and energy in your marriage or not? To find that out you Fitness Test your wife.

She gave me reasons why she wouldn’t retake our vows, the main one being she’s the type of woman who only need take her vows once. I’m a Romantic, you may imagine how much that hurt. It was as though I’d been jilted at the alter, waiting there for my bride, the woman I’ve chosen and committed to spend the rest of my life with and she doesn’t show. A major Shet Test. I went through that Shet Test twice in about ten years. As I say, I was a stupid fool.

By not accepting my proposal my wife failed my Fitness Test. But because I listened to her words and didn’t look to her body language and behaviour I didn’t see her truth. Because I didn’t listen to my emotions and what they were telling me, I totally and utterly missed the enormity of what had happened and why and just picked myself up off the floor and carried on going with her!


I came to learn that my wife’s truth was that in no way was she committed to me until death us do part. Sure she was with me, sharing my bed, sitting outside cafes with a coffee and having nice chats. She was being exceedingly Nice to me. But while she could deceive, lie to and manipulate me, use and abuse me for her own ends, she couldn’t go inside a Church and do the same with God. She could not tell God a lie, most especially in His Church, so she wouldn’t retake our Vows under Oath. Neither of us are church going people. But my wife has a fundamental belief in God. One of her mottos is “God knows our Truth”. Shame she wouldn’t tell her husband and so used and abused him. Maybe her God will forgive her.


It came to light by spying on her after we’d separated that she was with me until her circumstances were such that she could emigrate to another continent to live with her cousins. That was her dream and her plan for her End of Days. Her dream of her future was not with me, far from it.

Part of why she stayed with me is because of the good man I am, I’d proven myself time and time again within our very long marriage. I saved her life once when a doctor had shut down all her organs with a massive medication overdose and I nursed her and helped her through her recovery, those sort of things as well as being a very good provider.

If she was ever truthful with me, if she had given me the same Truth she gave God and didn’t withhold her secrets from me it would have meant she’d had to have gone off and into the big wide world on her own. Why do that when you have a man on hand who loves you and is committed to you? So I was her Plan B in some strange and convoluted way. I had to be kept on-side until her circumstances were right for her to leave me.

Why was she treading water with me? It’s to do with that she is waiting for her mother to come to the end of her days, when that happens she will be off to live with her cousins. What’s truly strange is that she has a strong dislike, distaste of her mother and can’t bear to be in her company (she’s paranoid and deluded) so I think her motivations for not going sooner are financial, she needs her mother’s money for her dreams and plans to come true.

I know mine’s a complicated story. I think I now know the magnitude of my wife’s betrayal of me, although I believe there is more betrayal that I’m not aware of.

My anger and dislike caused by the enormous betrayal of me by the woman I once loved so very much has been massive. Her abuse of me and what I think and feel about it is such that I don’t want her anywhere closer than a 100 miles to me. If I hear at all that she’s within these parts I know I will trigger due to PTSD and so I would take myself off somewhere where she’d never find me.

But I like to believe I am a Man of Balance. A Man who will do everything he can such that there is room for peace, harmony, patience and tolerance, for love, desire and passion to reside in him once again. And to that end I surround myself with all the joyful and happy memories of the woman I once loved so dearly, of the mother of my sons who I watched and helped her give birth to. With our first son, he was a breach birth and 9.3 pounds. My wife is a petite woman and she was 18 hours in the labour ward. I was there every single minute with her, caring for her, watching over her, loving her in the way I know how to love my woman. Such was the man I was as a 22 year old they wanted me there because of the calming effect I had on my wife. I was helping big time, I was no dumb ass in the way and making things worse. That’s who I am.

By recalling all my happy memories I am rebalancing myself. To this end I’ve printed and framed around 100 images of our times together and I’m surrounded by them. My wife is smiling out at me and that’s the way I like it. Reliving the happy and joyful memories created over our decades together.



My story is complicated, complex. But still I say get your wife’s commitment to you and therefore your marriage BEFORE you invest any more of your time. money and energy into it. So Fitness Test her, see if she’s a woman fit enough to be your partner on the journey of change to make your marriage a healthy and happy one.

And if she wont commit to you and wont tell you why, don’t be a blind fool in love like me and keep going on regardless. Don’t let your love make you a stupid man like it did me. Take your wife down off that pedestal, spy on her and find out why she wont commit.


And to get right back to your observation at the beginning, I both think and feel I am more aware now than I have ever been in my life.

I don’t think I’m deluded and I don’t think I’m paranoid. But I have come to my conclusions and judgements on my own, without the active participation of my wife, who after all is the only person who knows her truth. I would have at one stage like to have got together with her for some kind of “Truth and Reconciliation Process”. Not such that we get back together but 42 years was a very long time and I’d like to know what was truth and what was delusions.

But I now believe that my wife deceived me and lied to me so very much that she doesn’t actually know the truth now even if she wanted to tell me! Plus she’d do everything she possibly could to keep from admitting to what is in her very deep and dark Shadow. She seems to have spent at least the last decade with me doing that.

So. Am I less aware now than I was before? My judgement is an emphatic No! I am far more aware than ever before


Am I in denial about being less aware? Who knows. Am I paranoid and deluded? Who knows. The only person who knows the truth of these things is my wife.

But the thing is for me her truth passed her by and is forgotten in the annals, chronicles and recollections of her times with me. She not only deluded me with her deceits and lies, she ended up deluding her self. I know for an absolute fact her credibility and integrity in her dealings with me left her a long time ago and therefore left our marriage and was replaced by her duplicit behaviour.


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## AFEH

And in all that I’ve not mentioned boundaries once!


“Excuse me. You wont retake our vows? After I ask you to marry me again, you turn me down?

Well then I must tell we have now come to the end of our days together. Because in order that I give you my commitment, in order that I take care of you when you are ill, in order for me to work at making our marriage a happy and healthy one where you feel secure, comfortable safe and loved, it is necessary for you to do the same with me. I will now separate from you and divorce you. I will do it with as much grace as I can muster”.

That’s what I should have done.


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## hookares

AFEH said:


> And in all that I’ve not mentioned boundaries once!
> 
> 
> “Excuse me. You wont retake our vows? After I ask you to marry me again, you turn me down?
> 
> Well then I must tell we have now come to the end of our days together. Because in order that I give you my commitment, in order that I take care of you when you are ill, in order for me to work at making our marriage a happy and healthy one where you feel secure, comfortable safe and loved, it is necessary for you to do the same with me. I will now separate from you and divorce you. I will do it with as much grace as I can muster”.
> 
> That’s what I should have done.


Too bad if you didn't. The above seems very reasonable to me for anybody who has been cheated on and lied to.


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