# Looking for Perspective



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Sept 20/2018: I am trying to update this thread but do not have permission to post or reply, only to edit. Can a mod look in to this for me? I'd like to give back to this community by updating my situation and providing perspective on how I got to where I wanted to go.

Hi all,

I've been reading this forum for awhile but this is my first post. Here is my story and timeline, as briefly as I can share it.

Married for 20 years. I've always enjoyed booze but it started becoming a real problem after our first son was born about 13 years ago. The drinking caused many unnecessary arguments and I was the typical selfish drunk (never malicious or abusive, just selfish).

- In Feb of 2016 my wife told me she was deeply unhappy as I was never around and argumentative when I was, and kicked me out of the house.
- After doing what I could to change for her and impressing her with the changes, I moved back in in December 2016.
- Things went very well for the next few months, even though she caught me drinking a couple of times (which I had promised not to do).
- July 2017, on vacation I drank more one night than I had in probably years and ended up having a huge fight that caused a rift that never healed.
- By Sept I started drinking again regularly, and pretty much withdrew from family life, escaping her resentment from the vacation and all the other usual life stresses.
- End of Sept she told me that I had crept back to the same old patterns, was never going to change, and she was going to move on without me, and declared her intention to divorce.
- Shortly after that I had my rock bottom moment, when I realized clearly that I had no control over drinking, and had lost one of the most valuable things in my life as a result.
- Without knowing what a 180 was back then I started on it - I started attending AA, starting exercising again, and started meditation classes. I was determined to change for ME this time around, because it obviously didn't work the first time when I tried to change for her.
- We are still living in the same house (I am moving out end of Jan), and she has noticed a huge difference. I am an active listener, always out at AA meetings, making and cleaning all meals (I barely cleaned before), and am present and enthusiastic for the family. I stopped asking about our relationship weeks ago when I realized that those conversations were going nowhere. I haven't touched booze for 2 months and my cravings for it are surprisingly low, I think partly because I am determined to take control of my life. She has slowly moved from 'wanting her own space' to wanting to spend a lot of time with me, talking, meditating (which she has done for years), watching TV together. She has called me a 'best friend' and 'soul mate' but always combined with it that it is too bad it didn't happen soon enough to save our marriage. She has indicated that even after we separate she hopes we can spend meaningful time together.
- A couple of nights ago, discussing the logistics of separation (in a calm mature fashion without any anger), I asserted to her that if it was her intention to divorce me, I'd like to do it quickly. She was caught off guard, as she was used to my old habits of pleading and manipulation until the bitter end, and after shedding a few tears she told me that she still thought that divorce is where we were headed, but she was less sure than she first was. She quite understandably stated "I don't know if I can ever get to a place where I can trust you again." I responded to her that I don't blame her for feeling that way, and to let me know if she decided finally on divorce so that I could do final grieving move on. 

So it looks like we are headed for an extended separation rather than the certain divorce that she initially declared she wanted, but divorce is still well in the picture.

I've been doing IC throughout this whole ordeal, and we were doing MC up until our split, but she says there is no point in going any more.

I guess by posting my story I am looking for an outside perspective from any forumers who may have had similar experiences, or who recognize the patterns in the story. I know the 'correct' answer is: keep up the positive changes! I intend to regardless of outcome, I love my new life and even think it was worth the end of my marriage to get to where I am today. I guess I wanted to ask if there is any advice out there to improve my chances to possibly save my marriage? I am determined to stay the course, and do it for myself, but as we all know wrestling with these painful feelings is not easy (especially without the booze to numb them). I do truly and deeply love my wife, and realize this in a whole new way because of sobriety and mindfulness, which makes the separation and likely divorce even harder.

Thanks so much for your time in reading and responding,

M180


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

It's tough being with an alcoholic and based on your history she must think that even if you are sober now that you might relapse in the future. The best thing you can do is keep working on yourself and become the type of guy she'd ideally like to be married to. Stay sober, get in shape, be professionally successful, find your purpose in life and work towards it, etc. Above all else, don't pursue her or try to persuade her to stay with you. Respect her decision, and if she changes her mind, you are going to want it to be her idea that she comes to in her own time. Good luck!


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Bananapeel said:


> It's tough being with an alcoholic and based on your history she must think that even if you are sober now that you might relapse in the future. The best thing you can do is keep working on yourself and become the type of guy she'd ideally like to be married to. Stay sober, get in shape, be professionally successful, find your purpose in life and work towards it, etc. Above all else, don't pursue her or try to persuade her to stay with you. Respect her decision, and if she changes her mind, you are going to want it to be her idea that she comes to in her own time. Good luck!


QFT^^^^^^There is nothing else to say


----------



## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Bananapeel said:


> It's tough being with an alcoholic and based on your history she must think that even if you are sober now that you might relapse in the future. The best thing you can do is keep working on yourself and become the type of guy she'd ideally like to be married to. Stay sober, get in shape, be professionally successful, find your purpose in life and work towards it, etc. Above all else, don't pursue her or try to persuade her to stay with you. Respect her decision, and if she changes her mind, you are going to want it to be her idea that she comes to in her own time. Good luck!


Totally agree.



180Man said:


> So it looks like we are headed for an extended separation rather than the certain divorce that she initially declared she wanted, but divorce is still well in the picture.M180


You just have to remember to take it one day at a time. You're very early in recovery and the next year will have it's ups and downs with this alone. Most studies agree that it takes time for the brain to recover in areas such as one's decision making ability,so always be mindful. Some things you can't hurry along. Take care.


----------



## trueblue2017 (Dec 1, 2017)

180Man said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been reading this forum for awhile but this is my first post. Here is my story and timeline, as briefly as I can share it.
> 
> ...


Wow, I do first have to say a big CONGRATULATIONS on your 180. Yes, it is tough living with an alcoholic, I was married 18 years to one, and as much as he loved me and still does, he couldn't stop, and hasn't to this day. He has had many, many moments where he "quit" - and it lasted a few weeks or a few months. So - I'm glad you understand her apprehension. But if you are truly determined in this new life, and it sounds like you are, I think you will be successful, because you are doing all of the right things that lead to success! So, great job on doing what you're doing! And please be prepared that when you ultimately do move out it is going to be uncomfortable and difficult - I'm saying to anticipate the hurt, so that you don't have a setback. Have a plan of attack to prevent falling off the wagon.... 

If I can tell you one thing it's that "time heals all wounds." Time apart will definitely do one of two things. Either convince her that she did the right thing, or convince her that she doesn't want to be without you. Either way, you win, because you don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you wholeheartedly, right? And time will tell. Bananpeel is right on, respect her decision, and be there as a friend in case she changes her mind.....

My best advice is that you show her what you are made of on your own. Still try and keep in touch. Try the friendship approach. She will be so thrown that you are able to be big enough to put the past aside and to be able to have a new type of relationship with her as friends. Remaining friends will also allow her to see the new you is still going strong! Invite her to something unexpected. If she likes art, invite her to a painting class, if she likes theater, get tickets to a play. Do karaoke. Go to a movie that you know she would want to see. Go JUST as friends! Show her how great a friend you can be. Don't monopolize her time or pester her - do it out of the blue and only occasionally. Do all of those things we do with our friends that we seem to forget about once we're married! Do not, and I repeat, DO NOT give in during weak moments. Do NOT break the friendship thing if she comes to you, and is weak, and wants sex or comfort or familiarity, NO! She will have to make a decision to be with you again if she wants the good stuff that comes along with that! And whatever you do, show her you have a life and you are doing well on your own! 

As far as the timing of the divorce, I completely understand your desire to get it over with and not remain separated forever. I'm very black and white about that also, and don't like being in limbo. If I were you, and I knew separation was inevitable, I would move out sooner rather than later. I think the sooner you move out, the quicker she will get to "missing you" and wanting you back full time - if that's what's going to happen. Some people may say "out of sight, out of mind" - but I am more apt to believe "absence makes the heart grow fonder." Make sure that you explain that this trial separation is what you believe SHE wants and needs, it is not what YOU want necessarily, but that you are willing to do so in order to give her the space and time that she needs to think clearly. And that you will continue to be there as a friend, and she can come to you whenever she needs to talk. That will keep the communication open. 

That's my two cents, for what it's worth! And I think, as a woman who was on the fence, that would surprise me the most and make me really think "hey wait, this person can live without me, and he is doing it, and doing it well! And being mature and grown up about it! I better wise up!"


----------



## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

180Man said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been reading this forum for awhile but this is my first post. Here is my story and timeline, as briefly as I can share it.
> 
> ...


Read the books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters". They are not about alcoholism, but offer the absolute best guidance on building or rebuilding a stellar marriage. 

In regards to alcohol, my advice is to implement long-term solutions. It may be easy to avoid alcohol right now, but it won't be forever. There will be a moment in the future when you really, really want it. So think about that now, and figure out how, in that circumstance, you're going to prevent yourself from falling. Put measures in place that make obtaining alcohol extremely difficult.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Thanks for all of the replies all, it is good to hear confirmation that I am on the right path, regardless of the outcome.

Trueblue, thanks so much for taking the time to share- your perspective means a lot to me given it sounds like you were in the same situation that my wife is in now. The friendship advice is brilliant - because the last thing she wants right now is pressure. I'll definitely be re-reading your email again as I move forward!

As much as I want her back, I realize I have to focus on me and nurture this new found moment that I have found to grow in to the man I've always wanted to be. AA and meditation are the two things helping me the most right now - an understanding and supportive community and through meditation the training to sit with painful and stressful emotions without having to blot them out. Mindfulness is also helping me cherish kids again in a way I haven't in years.

Thanks again everyone, I'll keep you posted how it goes!

Cheers,

M180


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

I'll look up those Harley books, thanks BioFury. I'm currently reading Divorce Busting and the Big Book.


----------



## pragmaticGoddess (Nov 29, 2017)

Congratulations on realizing that you need to change your ways and actually taking steps to do so. I know someone close to me who has been in the same situation as your wife has. I can feel the hopelessness of having to spend your whole life with an alcoholic. I wouldn’t blame her if she left him. She didn’t. 

That said I think you’re doing something to correct your wrongs. Does your alcoholism stem from childhood codependency and is that something you need to work out and deal with before you can be a good husband to your wife? I have seen people who have conquered addiction and know it’s possible. 

You’re right to focus on changing for yourself. It’s a good time to clear out the basement/ attic and examine your whole life to see what needs fixing. I’m glad you’re still in IC.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

pragmaticGoddess said:


> Congratulations on realizing that you need to change your ways and actually taking steps to do so. I know someone close to me who has been in the same situation as your wife has. I can feel the hopelessness of having to spend your whole life with an alcoholic. I wouldn’t blame her if she left him. She didn’t.
> 
> That said I think you’re doing something to correct your wrongs. Does your alcoholism stem from childhood codependency and is that something you need to work out and deal with before you can be a good husband to your wife? I have seen people who have conquered addiction and know it’s possible.
> 
> You’re right to focus on changing for yourself. It’s a good time to clear out the basement/ attic and examine your whole life to see what needs fixing. I’m glad you’re still in IC.


Hi PG, I am not exactly sure what childhood codependency is, but I lost a younger brother when I was 5, and grew up with a narcissist father (not trying to insult him, he fits the clinical definition). My parents were both avoidant, so I was left to deal with all of my emotional pain alone, which was pretty common for my generation (and those before I think), and I became avoidant myself, something I have been working on a lot (I never would have been able to even speak about this kind of stuff earlier in life). I've spent most of my life thinking I had to become someone important, like my dad modeled to me, and went pretty far in municipal politics to do so. 'Becoming important' never fulfilled me the way I thought it would, and I think alcohol was part of coping with that.

I am obviously still working through this stuff, and probably always will be. As someone said a few posts above, I am still a baby at this, with only a 2 month chip, beginner mindfulness training, and a lust to live I haven't had in a long time.

M180


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Hi,

I wanted to update my situation and ask for additional advice.

The last month has been great relationship-wise. She has said all of the following:

"I can't bear thinking about you with another woman."
"I love you"
"The chances of us working are definitely not zero."
"If you want to do any renovations on your new place you can come back and stay here for a couple of weeks."

As above, I continue to do what I consider a customized 180 for my situation. Focused on improving myself, staying sober, being emotionally vulnerable without being a doormat, cleaning around the house, making meals, taking interest in her interests. All of the stuff I didn't do in our marriage. She has been amazed at the change and has stated that she believes I have really turned things around, and even trusts that the 'new me' will stick.

Last night I think I made a mistake- after a wonderful evening together at the end of the night I asked if I could kiss her. She told me that this wasn't a fairy tale, that we were in the middle of separating, and told me how disappointed she was that I was slipping back on the promise I gave her to give her space. I asked her exactly how she feels about me (I know, another mistake) and she said she didn't know, and that it would take a long time for her to process our failed marriage and that she really didn't know if she could ever allow herself to become physically intimate with me again. She also said how much she enjoys spending time with me, and that she was prepared to spend a year trying to figure out her feelings before moving on to try out other romantic interests. I know how hard it is for a woman to make the choice to leave, and that for many women there is no reversing that. I guess I have to live with that.

So I will be moving out in a month's time. I want to make the most of this time. I guess I placed too much hope in the closeness I've felt with her over the last few weeks, and tried a romantic overture, which was obviously the wrong move. Today she was quite sympathetic, not at all angry over last night, and even stated: "You know I really like you, but as a roommate." I fear I may have re-set whatever she may have been actually thinking (whatever that was), and that she'll be a little more careful to keep distance. Sooo.... Over the course of January, how can I maximize the time I spend with her? The changes I am making for myself are real, and for me, and I am very proud of myself. I'm not going to turn back to who I was, regardless of what happens. That is the big win in this, no matter what. That being said, I obviously haven't totally detached myself from her - she is the love of my life and she knows that although the changes I am making are authentic, that I am still trying hard to 'win her back.' I just gave her a big reminder of that, unfortunately. 

The other thing is financial separation. I have purchased a few rental properties over the years, and have told her I'll do the right thing and split them 50/50 with her. She on the other hand, makes a much bigger salary than me, and says she does not want to pay salary equalization or child support. I argued and we got in to one of the two tense arguments we've had since she announced her original intention to divorce. Given I want so badly to reconcile, how can I properly address this without it becoming a big emotional divide for us? 

Thanks as always for any thoughts anyone has.

M180


----------



## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

180Man said:


> Hi,
> 
> These words:
> 
> ...



M180 - I'm just an old lawyer but a fellow who has been a listening ear for many who have been in your shoes. All of your gains went out the window when you tried to kiss your wife. Go back and read BananaPeel's post in your thread. You went back to ground zero. Your wife must move to you. It must be her idea not yours.

I truly hate to say this but your wife is a walk away wife. A walk away very rarely comes back to the marriage. She's simply done notwithstanding her musings in the first quoted part above. She likes you as a friend but not as a husband.

M180 do you really want to stick around in limbo? Do you want to spend the next months (years?) just being a good friend? Only you can answer this of course. Most men that I have talked to have said that living in limbo was a special kind of hell. They wish they had just cut the cord and moved on with a cordial divorce even though they knew they were greatly to be blamed.

If you have not done so, you need to see a lawyer. You have significant property interests. You need a written separation agreement. Custody schedules must be agreed upon. You need a competent attorney to guide you on these issues or you may find yourself on the outside looking in.

Good luck to you my friend.


----------



## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Regarding the financials, go with what is fair and handle negotiation through the lawyers so that it is clearly business and not personal.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

180Man said:


> Hi,
> 
> I wanted to update my situation and ask for additional advice.
> 
> ...


 @180Man you didn’t get into this situation with your wife over the space of a few months and it’s not going to recover overnight if at all.
Regardless of whether you reconcile or not do not be foolish when it comes to financials.Be fair with your wife but do not use this as some sort of penitential act.If she doesn’t want her salary brought into the equation as regards child support then don’t let the income from your rental properties be taken solely into consideration.
You may end up alone at the end of all of this.
Don’t be broke and alone.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Thanks all for weighing in... It's bitter medicine but I've read enough on here to recognize it is the right medicine.

I agree around the financials. I'll set things up so that conversation happens through lawyers or at worst a mediator.

I don't want to give up hope right off the bat though... Why would she offer that there is a chance for us, when at first she said she wanted a divorce, case closed? Would it be prudent for me to provide her with a timeline I am comfortable with, i.e., 6 months? I can totally see that it would be several times more painful to wait in purgatory only to have to go through the grieving process anyway...

I'm going to have to reread this thread more often, I did exactly what BananaPeel suggested at the beginning, but let my mind play tricks on me last night...

Tx

M180


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

180Man said:


> Hi,
> 
> I wanted to update my situation and ask for additional advice.
> 
> ...


Reflect back. There is nothing worse than living with a drunk. She has good reasons for wanting to move on. With that said you take care of yourself first. At this time you are all you have.

Better understand this first and foremost.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

180Man said:


> Thanks all for weighing in... It's bitter medicine but I've read enough on here to recognize it is the right medicine.
> 
> I agree around the financials. I'll set things up so that conversation happens through lawyers or at worst a mediator.
> 
> ...


Buddy work on yourself and bring yourself through this addiction,you will never be cured but you can come out the other end.
Anything else is a bonus.


----------



## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

@180Man, if you’re in the rooms, you may have heard the saying “time takes time”. You say your drinking started to really cause problems about 13 years ago; you’ve been continuously sober for only, what, 130 days? It is a great accomplishment and you should be proud! At the same time, it’s early days. It’s impossible to heal over a decades’ worth of damage in only a very few months. 

Your wife is probably cautiously optimistic but she surely remembers earlier promises and recent fights. My guess is the two of you have been in periods of hopeful sobriety before. Does she go to Alanon? If not, would she be willing to try it? My ex and I used to go to meetings that were held at the same time- he’d go to AA or NA and I’d go to the Alanon/Naranon room. It helped keep us together. My ex could stay sober for up to a year at a time, but never more than that. I think your wife is wise to give it a year to see how things go. 

Limbo is hell. Having been in your wife’s shoes, my experience was that living with an addict was also hell and quite a lot like limbo. Being hopeful that recovery was sticking, always fearful that the other shoe was going to drop.Trying to stay optimistic but always questioning what was really happening every time he was late, or sick, or something was lost/misplaced. Always having contingency plans in case he was a no-show/drunk/high. You hope for the best but plan for the worst, even a year after the last drunk. 

It’s sort of like getting popped in the nose. If someone hits you in the nose, you’re stunned and hurt. If they apologize, you might let them near you again. You might see them every day for six months without trouble, but then they hit you again. Your walls will go up. Sooner or later, if it keeps happening, you’re going decide to stay away for good, even if they “only” pop your nose “rarely”. 

It takes a long time to re-build trust. My recommendation is to enjoy each beautiful day and develop into the sober man you want to be. They days will pass regardless of your status with your wife, so make the most of them either way. My ex was able to attract me back to him when he had some sober time under his belt, but it took time. He became an ex because he could not stay sober for good (and eventually died from his addiction); hopefully you will have a different outcome. 

Your wife has said she will wait for a year. Do as much with her and your kids as she will allow. Show her that you will put her needs above yours, which means giving her the respectful space she’s requested. If you haven’t yet, read His Needs, Her Needs and meet her emotional needs. Dr. Harley started off as an addictions counselor; you can email him and get his advice for free at his radio program ([email protected])

I wish you the best of luck!


----------



## Bonkers (Nov 26, 2017)

After getting off to a good start with the 180 and being sober, you made several mistakes that probably made the odds of reconciliation next to nothing but hey you never know. All you can do is get back on track and let the chips fall where they may. 

Asking for the kiss was a huge mistake, if she had any thoughts of returning to the fold you pushed her way back with that action and all you can do now is try to forget about it and not repeat it should things seem to be going in that direction again. Any suggestion of intimacy has to come from HER, you need to remain calm, and somewhat detached. 

Discussing divorce related financials and worse yet ARGUING about them is only going to push you further apart and it's way too soon to even broach the subject, it will accomplish nothing and ruin any chances of reconciling. 

You're too impatient. There's a lot of damage done here, you've put her through the meat grinder, and she'll need a lot of time to work through everything, rebuild trust for you, and for you to truly prove you are going to stay sober and these positive changes are permanent. To say to her "If you want to divorce I want to do it fast" is putting her under unnecessary pressure, it's no better than an ultimatum and it will only work against your desired goal of reconciliation.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

RoseAglow said:


> @180Man, if you’re in the rooms, you may have heard the saying “time takes time”. You say your drinking started to really cause problems about 13 years ago; you’ve been continuously sober for only, what, 130 days? It is a great accomplishment and you should be proud! At the same time, it’s early days. It’s impossible to heal over a decades’ worth of damage in only a very few months.
> 
> Your wife is probably cautiously optimistic but she surely remembers earlier promises and recent fights. My guess is the two of you have been in periods of hopeful sobriety before. Does she go to Alanon? If not, would she be willing to try it? My ex and I used to go to meetings that were held at the same time- he’d go to AA or NA and I’d go to the Alanon/Naranon room. It helped keep us together. My ex could stay sober for up to a year at a time, but never more than that. I think your wife is wise to give it a year to see how things go.
> 
> ...


Hi Rose,

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. It sounds like you went through something similar to us. My wife requested a trial separation nearly two years ago, and when we reconciled she told me that our marriage was in my hands: alcohol or the marriage. I did the best that I could, but I felt too proud to go to AA, resulting in the inevitable lapse and where I am now. If I had gone to AA back then I am not sure it would have made a difference - I would have been doing it for her and not for me.

AA has made a world of difference for me. I am still in early days (3 month chip) but feel like the changes happening in me are for good (although I won't take that for granted - I need to stay vigilant.) I am meditating daily, surrendering my pride, and being open and honest with my wife, which has absolutely shocked her. I am genuinely taking interest in her, and feel present, engaged, and caring. 
Basically she has said she loves who I have become, and if she met me for the first time would certainly fall in love with me, but that our history may make it impossible for her to ever be physically intimate with her again - she would feel too awful. She has made me no promises, but has said that there is a chance she might feel differently with time. I take personal responsibility for the ruin our marriage has become, especially after the 2nd chance that I blew. I am willing to live in purgatory for a time--I need the time anyway to prove these changes to myself before I can enter in to a relationship with anyone else anyway. I am just not certain how long that might be.

Whether she will be willing to attend an Alanon meeting - I am doubtful at this point. As you point out - I need to place her needs above mine at this point, cannot be selfish/needy (as opposed to vulnerable which she greatly admires), and give her the time I feel I can. I am also working on forgiving myself, and there will certainly be a point that I will tell her I must move on. 

Above all else, I need to work on my, and stay mindful and sober.

I cannot bear the thought of it now, but know if I do the work and come out the other side single, there will be a time in the not too distant future I can be happy again, and build a relationship from scratch with the emotional openness and sobriety I have been acquiring.

Thanks again Rose


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Bonkers said:


> After getting off to a good start with the 180 and being sober, you made several mistakes that probably made the odds of reconciliation next to nothing but hey you never know. All you can do is get back on track and let the chips fall where they may.
> 
> Asking for the kiss was a huge mistake, if she had any thoughts of returning to the fold you pushed her way back with that action and all you can do now is try to forget about it and not repeat it should things seem to be going in that direction again. Any suggestion of intimacy has to come from HER, you need to remain calm, and somewhat detached.
> 
> ...


Hi Bonkers,

Duly noted. The issue about the financials is that she would like to separate our finances regardless of whether we divorce or not... So that discussion is going to happen over the course of the next 30 days regardless...

I might be deluded, but don't think the kiss request was a total reset or made this a lost cause. Today she told me she still wants to go ahead with our family trip to Mexico this spring... Not that that means she has any romantic motives, but she is clearly not making huge steps to make additional distance. I just need to steel myself against doing any romantic initiating again and keep re-reading this thread to remind me.

Thanks for your thoughts,


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I would argue that it would be a mistake to place her needs completely above your own. There is a reason you have to put on your own oxygen mask before you can put one on your child. 

A healthy, balanced man lives a life based on his own principles. A healthy, balanced man is attractive.

Make her needs a important, but be the type of man that can prioritize both of your needs.

In the meantime, you should be a man who's planning to be divorced by the end of the year. She has given you no other reason to think otherwise. Don't be caught flat-footed at the end of the year.


----------



## Bonkers (Nov 26, 2017)

180Man said:


> Duly noted. The issue about the financials is that she would like to separate our finances regardless of whether we divorce or not... So that discussion is going to happen over the course of the next 30 days regardless...


Ok, I get it. You're in a tough place. You don't want to alienate her completely by holding your ground on the financial issues but you don't want to roll over and sign up for an unfair agreement that would set the pace for an eventual divorce ruling or settlement. You're going to have to find a balance, something you can live with that is generous enough that she knows you're trying. 



180Man said:


> I might be deluded, but don't think the kiss request was a total reset or made this a lost cause.


Let's just agree that it was a setback and you know it was a mistake that you will not repeat, ok?



180Man said:


> Today she told me she still wants to go ahead with our family trip to Mexico this spring... Not that that means she has any romantic motives, but she is clearly not making huge steps to make additional distance.


That's promising.


----------



## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

180,
You have a great mindset, and I am rooting for you and your wife. So glad to hear you are in AA, getting support, and engaging in meditation. Continue on this path of mindfulness and moderation. I believe you owe it to yourself to heal and rebuild. I also think it is wise to give your wife the year she is asking for. She deserves it and your marriage is well worth the effort. If your wife were a walk-away wife she would have already walked. But she is suffering from PTSD. Maybe not literally, but her emotions have been battered by your insobriety. Give her the year to try and piece herself and you back together. Learn from the attempted kissing incident. You've learned so much already and your attitude of self-reflection tells me that you will continue to learn and grow from this.

The greatest lessons in life don't come cheap. One must pay a large toll. Spend this year paying the toll. You will be deprived of intimacy but what you gain spiritually and in character will be well worth the sacrifice. When 2019 comes around you will be free to either rejoin your wife in intimacy and love or chart a new course without her. My money is on the former. Best of luck!


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

A quick update...

First thank you as always for the insights, and to you Rick Blaine for the encouragement, it means a lot.

Last night we discussed my invitation to kiss and, as predicted by posters above, it was a major setback. She told me that the awful feelings around physical intimacy were so strong as a result that she now considers it unlikely that she will ever feel differently. She told me that there was still a chance, but suggested I should move on because those chances were pretty low. Bananapeel was of course correct - my initiation caused her to recoil hard. She told me again that she loved who I am becoming, and that the physical intimacy aspect was the only thing holding her back from considering reconciliation, but that it was so huge she didn't think it was worth me waiting to find out whether it might change. I asked her if that was the case, would she at least consider MC as a way to explore whether there was a way through. At first she said no, it would be a waste of time, but after I had suggested that in the future we want to be able to tell our kids we tried everything, she agreed. So I see now that I am in a much worse spot with her than I was a couple of days ago, but that she is agreeing to MC, which is something she refused to do after stating her original intention to divorce 3 months ago.

Our previous counselor is a sex therapist as well as marriage, and I am hoping she has experience around this sort of issue. Any advice on how I should approach this? Should I work with the counselor in advance to make sure she is experienced in this area? I suspect I will have only one shot at this.

Thanks all,

M180


----------



## Bonkers (Nov 26, 2017)

I am going to suggest that you take a harder approach. 

She's already got both her feet out the door you've got nothing to lose by changing it up. 

Pull back and detach, and perhaps given the extra space and the "air of mystery" that will accompany your 'disappearance', she will regain some of the lost interest. 

If you do nothing else, stop asking her questions about how she feels and whether she might consider counseling, or give things another try, or what your chances of reconciliation might be. It puts her under pressure, it's demanding in a subtle way, not much different from an ultimatum, and it's very weak and unattractive. It's like going in for that kiss, only in smaller doses.

Besides, it's unproductive. She doesn't have the answers you seek.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Thanks Bonkers, I will follow that advice.

You were all correct- the attempted kiss pretty much negated all of my previous efforts- what was I thinking...

She's gone from intimate emotional closeness to acting very clear that our situation is permanent. She says is is not ruling out reconciliation but that it is far in the future, if at all.

Well, just want to say I appreciate everyone's advice here, I felt I was so close and then blew everything with one impulsive action... I guess that is how life works sometimes.

The good news is that I feel myself disengaging from her. It is tough, and comes with very uncomfortable feelings, but I know I will get there. After all is said and done I have my sobriety and a positive outlook I have not had in many years.

Any final advice that anyone might have would be appreciated. I am not giving up all hope, but certainly most of it.

Thanks again all,

M180


----------



## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

@180Man how are you doing? When do you move out? Have you contacted a lawyer?


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Hi Absurdist,

Thanks for checking in. I'm doing okay, but definitely feel like I am in relationship purgatory.

I saw our MC one-on-one yesterday and she said that I need to forget about relationship with W or anyone else for that matter and focus on recovery. She said it would be a long time before W would likely be able to trust my new sober self, and that would provide a lot of time for her to heal and myself to grow. She said that, knowing us both well, she was 'hopeful' that a reconciliation could take place down the road, but said I had to do my best to push that out of my mind for now, get a sponsor and home group, and make my new growth mindset permanent.

Yesterday we broke the news to the children that we were separating and that I would be moving out at the end of the month. They of course took it hard, but it went as well as could be expected. W told the children that she has never gotten along better with me, and very much wanted to develop that friendship, if I was okay with it. Later that night when we were debriefing the conversation she told me that she really enjoys spending time with me, and didn't want to lose out on our new found connection after I move out. She also said she felt she could not be completely 'real' with me until after I moved out and she felt she had space. She also told me that I would be a total 'catch' for any woman, and expected that I would find someone else sooner than she would. It makes me both happy and sad to hear that, because she is obviously thinking about me moving on. I told her that I would be focused on recovery, and our growing friendship, but that I didn't want to crowd her after I moved out and she told me that she didn't think I could. So all of that seems like good news, although she still hasn't returned to the level of intimacy she had before I asked to kiss her (I don't expect she will until after I move out). She also wants to see a movie with me this weekend, but wanted to be clear we would go 'as friends.' We're also finalizing family travel plans to Mexico in the spring, and Cali for next Christmas. 

She brought up finances again, and told me that she really didn't think it would be fair that she share part of her salary with me. She told me that she held down her high paying job AND was the primary caregiver for both of our children when they were young, while I pitched in only a little (a lot in times of sobriety, but mostly little) and pretty much played video games and drank in my free time. This is true. I countered that all of our rental properties (two commercial buildings and a fourplex) were my initiative and my effort, and that she shouldn't expect to receive 50/50 there but not expect that I would look for salary equalization and child support. She brought in the majority of the money, while I made and tended our investments and grew our equity significantly. She told me that she could live with some child support, but then countered that both of my parents are wealthy and hers were not (also true). I am not a fan of this line of argument, but kept that to myself to avoid arguing. At this point I told her I would think about it all, but didn't want to commit to anything without a mediation process (which seems to be the way to go for couples in Canada who get along well and avoids lawyers).

I keep reminding myself that I am better off now than if she hadn't ended our marriage, but I feel more in love with her than ever so am trying hard to just sit with these hard feelings and act as detached as possible (but still meet her at her desired level of emotional intimacy). I am also reminding myself that I would eventually be happy without her as well - it is just not what I want right now.

The single biggest thing I am amazed at is how much attention and interest I can take in the small things in life now - things I could never tolerate with an alcoholic mindset. This has impressed her perhaps most of all.

Thanks again for asking Absurdist,

M180


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

This is growth!

Your IC is right. Keep on. You are on a good path, regardless of what happens in the M. 

As far as finances, don't roll over for her. There may be some rocky discussions ahead. You can't avoid the conflict forever. But what you can do is be prepared and don't ever commit to anything without due consideration or commit to anything you aren't comfortable with. 

Do what's reasonable and fair


----------



## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

@180Man - please understand that I am rooting for you to succeed and I have a lot of empathy for situation since I have talked to so many men who have been in your place. Please take the following in the spirit in which it is given.




180Man said:


> Hi Absurdist,
> 
> Thanks for checking in. I'm doing okay, but definitely feel like I am in relationship purgatory.
> 
> ...



@180Man - Don't you think it would be wise to look for a better job? If you have the skills to buy, sell and manage commercial properties you have the skills to land a better paying job. Along with all the other things I have mentioned, why not look for that position now? You have talents. Use them. What better way to regain some of your lost self esteem than by landing a better career? There are jobs out there but they won't fall in your lap. You have to go and find them.

Good luck to you. Pulling for you.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

My only advice:

Youve already received good stuff...

When it comes to this, you have got to stop letting your love for your wife determine your decisions.
Your wife sounds like she loved you deeply. But honestly, she doesn't love you anymore like you love her. She has told you she can't see ever having a physical relationship with you again. You need to understand that what she is giving you now is only in HER interests as far as wanting you for an emotional crutch, safety net.... etc.

You need to move on. Detach. Your marriage is over. Why? Because your wife is no longer in love with you. It doesn't matter who is at fault. 

My advice: never touch another drop of alcohol. It's ruined your life once. That's not your wife's fault. 

Divorce and detach. When you've done with the grieving, go out with a woman who can stand to kiss you.
Once this happens with a woman, they are very, very unlikely to ever change their mind. She has told you this. Believe her.

Gotta let her go. I'm so sorry.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Hi @Absurdist and @Evinrude58,

You both speak the truth, I am coming to accept what you are saying and move on. She is already having an EA with an old friend of ours, I just found out about it and she admitted to it openly and honestly. She told me she is not certain what she will do next, but that a physical relationship might be in the cards. It is obviously not an affair given we have been separated over 3.5 months... She also told me she remains open to a relationship with me down the road, but that for right now she has a world of hurt to deal with, and would like to possibly explore other relationships while she works on that. I didn't know what else to do so gave her my blessing to do so (or otherwise look like I am not giving her proper space...)

At least this knocks me out of limbo. My goal now is to detach, make decisions without my love for her getting in the way, keeping things as friendly as possible for the kids, and preparing to fairly divide assets. I'll definitely consult with a lawyer to get that process started.

I am devastated that it has come to this, knowing full well it was my alcoholism that is largely to blame for the end, and having to cope with the hurt that I have left behind. Fortunately AA is a perfect group for me to be able to begin coping with this.

Thanks once again all,

M180


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

One thing 180:
"She is already having an EA with an old friend of ours, I just found out about it and she admitted to it openly and honestly. She told me she is not certain what she will do next, but that a physical relationship might be in the cards. "

And she was BSing you earlier then when she was saying "YOU will find someone before she would" -- she had already found someone. I think someone put it correctly -- she is USING you for HER emotional requirements, and not really giving anything back. And NOW you see her for what she was really doing. Don't have her on the pedestal, she doesn't belong there. Yes your drinking caused problems, but she is no saint.


----------



## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

180Man said:


> Hi @Absurdist and @Evinrude58,
> 
> She is already having an EA with an old friend of ours, I just found out about it and she admitted to it openly and honestly. She told me she is not certain what she will do next, but that a physical relationship might be in the cards. It is obviously not an affair given we have been separated over 3.5 months...
> 
> ...


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Where can I get information on what is about to happen? Two of our close couple friends just went through separation/divorce and a mediator was used in both cases successfully. This is all I really know. My STBXW may not be a saint, but genuinely seems to want a fair split, minus the salary equalization she is complaining about.

Tx,

M180


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

180Man said:


> Where can I get information on what is about to happen? Two of our close couple friends just went through separation/divorce and a mediator was used in both cases successfully. This is all I really know. My STBXW may not be a saint, but genuinely seems to want a fair split, minus the salary equalization she is complaining about.
> 
> Tx,
> 
> M180


See an attorney to make sure you understand what is actually fair. Then capitalize on her good graces as quickly as possible to secure yourself a good outcome.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Hi all,

A quick update:

- We are once again emotionally intimate, and she has expressed several times how amazed she is at my changes.
- The EA/OM continues, but she has said she will make no decisions until April or May at the earliest, maybe later than that. She offered that information to me unsolicited.
- She told me she does not wish to give me any hope, but that she is going to try to 'reset' the pain associated with our marriage. Our 10 year old keeps asking her why she is not giving me another chance given my behaviour changes, and I think this is starting to sink in a bit.
- I am still living in the same house until the end of the month, and am calm and detached most of the time but start going nutty when I see her using her phone. I play it cool, but how can I calm myself down on the inside?
- I joined a dating site, just to get myself out there and start building up my mojo and confidence a bit. Is it too early for me to go on a few dates if that comes about?
- I am openly discussing my life without her, and how excited I am to start fresh on my own, and build my own life. This seems to draw some interest from her, and has opened up a lot of conversations. I am trying for real to detach completely, but some days are better than others.
- We went to MC but it didn't make much difference. One things though is that she agreed to go to a 2 day seminar at the local health network about the scars left behind by living with an addict. I am hoping this provides her with some perspective in which she might be able to understand and forgive me for who I was.

Not sure any of the above makes any difference, but I thought I would share.

Cheers,

M180


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

180Man said:


> Hi all,
> 
> A quick update:
> 
> - We are once again emotionally intimate, and she has expressed several times how amazed she is at my changes.





180Man said:


> - The EA/OM continues, but she has said she will make no decisions until April or May at the earliest, maybe later than that. She offered that information to me unsolicited.


Does she expect you to live in limbo as her cuckold while she test drives another man? Are you ok with that?



180Man said:


> - She told me she does not wish to give me any hope, but that she is going to try to 'reset' the pain associated with our marriage. Our 10 year old keeps asking her why she is not giving me another chance given my behaviour changes, and I think this is starting to sink in a bit.


I wouldn't hold out hope either. Detach! 



180Man said:


> - I am still living in the same house until the end of the month, and am calm and detached most of the time but start going nutty when I see her using her phone. I play it cool, but how can I calm myself down on the inside?


Detach!



180Man said:


> - I joined a dating site, just to get myself out there and start building up my mojo and confidence a bit. Is it too early for me to go on a few dates if that comes about?


For addicts in a 12 step program, I think they suggest you don't get into any new relationships for 12 months. But if it helps you detach...



180Man said:


> - I am openly discussing my life without her, and how excited I am to start fresh on my own, and build my own life. This seems to draw some interest from her, and has opened up a lot of conversations. I am trying for real to detach completely, but some days are better than others.


Her interest may be self serving, i.e. to figure out how to screw you over better in the D. Or it could simply be showing interest in someone who has their s**t together. Guys with their **** together are generally more attractive. No?

Then there is always "dread". Many women are funny and get protective, especially if some other attractive woman shows some interest in you. Either way, a new and improved you will be a catch for the next woman. Get on with being new and improved.



180Man said:


> - We went to MC but it didn't make much difference. One things though is that she agreed to go to a 2 day seminar at the local health network about the scars left behind by living with an addict. I am hoping this provides her with some perspective in which she might be able to understand and forgive me for who I was.


Too much focus on her. Not your monkeys.

If, and that is a big IF, she ever thinks she might want back to you, believe me, she will let you know. You aren't going to be able to convince her of anything. Would you really want to anyway?



180Man said:


> Not sure any of the above makes any difference, but I thought I would share.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> M180


It doesn't make a difference, but thanks for the update!

Hang in there. Be the man with the plan and move forward. She can either join you or get left behind. And if she screws around too long, the door may close permanently behind you. Her loss.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Hi @Tron,

Thanks for the thoughts, my sense is that you are bang on for each one and I will proceed accordingly.

Question though, to my knowledge, in 20 years, my wife has been absolutely loyal to me (to a fault - she should have left me years ago due to my alcohol problems IMO).

Now that we are separated, how should I treated the OM/EA? Shouldn't detachment dictate that I appear to not let it bother me, or should I apply pressure, which I know will get me resistance? How do I play that one so I can let her know I am concerned, without applying the pressure that will so clearly push her away from me (or is that what I must do?)

Thanks as always,

M180


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

Your wife said this:

She also said how much she enjoys spending time with me, and that she was prepared to spend a year trying to figure out her feelings before moving on to try out other romantic interests.

Are you certain you aren't already plan B? That she has been dating behind your back?


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

180Man said:


> Hi @Tron,
> 
> Thanks for the thoughts, my sense is that you are bang on for each one and I will proceed accordingly.
> 
> ...


If you can chase him off, then do it.

Detachment doesn't mean you are ok with her having an affair. She has indicated that she is going to put herself out there. What does that mean? 

Would she be honest with you if you asked her to better define the terms of this separation? Do you trust her to let you know if and when she engages in another serious relationship, including a sexual one? How do you know that hasn't already happened?

And what is a deal-breaker for you? I wouldn't tell her what your deal breakers are, I'd just tell her you aren't ok with...

I see it as a fine line for her to go out and meet people (i.e. dating) while you guys are separated and engaging in a relationship, sexting, having sex, etc. with another man. If she ****s some guy are you willing to wait around for her?


----------



## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

180Man said:


> Hi @Tron,
> 
> Thanks for the thoughts, my sense is that you are bang on for each one and I will proceed accordingly.
> 
> ...



And how should she treat you for being on a dating site? :scratchhead:


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

@Tron How can I chase off an OM, without alienating all involved? He has a history of broken relationships, and is not currently in one, so not sure what leverage I have at my disposal.
@Absurdist Our separation is a final one (according to her). She is not divorcing me because I maintain her work benefits, although divorce has been discussed. She has said "I am letting you go, you need to let me go too." She has made clear that if I choose to date, that is my decision.

M180


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

180Man said:


> @Tron How can I chase off an OM, without alienating all involved? He has a history of broken relationships, and is not currently in one, so not sure what leverage I have at my disposal.


There are things you can do, some of which aren't permitted to be discussed here.

Just an observation, but it seems your W picked a real winner as your replacement... 




180Man said:


> @Absurdist Our separation is a final one (according to her). She is not divorcing me because I maintain her work benefits, although divorce has been discussed. She has said "I am letting you go, you need to let me go too." She has made clear that if I choose to date, that is my decision.


She is most practical, I will give her that.

Regretfully, that sounds like a statement that she fully intends to F around while still married to you. 

So I will ask you again, are you ok with that? 

Have you seen a lawyer to find out what a D would look like in your case? 

In general, I would advise you not to pay for a divorce that you don't want. But the desire to get out of the M can and probably will change as circumstances around what she is doing with other men changes. For example, I would not advise you to foot the bill for her to test ride multiple men or even the OM in your marital bed. 

I would think under those circumstances, it would be more prudent to force the issue and give her what she says she wants...a permanent separation from you. Make it real. And if she has a change of heart, then she will have to chase you.

This kind of reminds me of a thread from a while back that you might want to look at. It's a bit of a long one. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/66220-losts-story-journal.html


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

I would blow her affair out of the water.


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Yep.

There's always exposure. Expose far and wide.

So what if she gets pissed off. You won't be in any worse position after exposure than you are now, and at least she'll have some respect for you; that you aren't some chump she can wipe her shoes on.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Thanks Tron, I like long threads, kind of like reading a non-fiction with a ton of raw experience and insight.

As mentioned a few pages ago, my W initially thought we were headed for divorce, but thanks to the 180 hedged her bets. Basically she has said: our separation is permanent, we are splitting assets and one of us is moving out (I'm moving out at the end of the month in to one of our rental properties). When I ask her if she considers it that final, why don't we get a divorce, she says only that the door is still open a crack for reconciliation, but it is only a crack, and uses the excuse of her benefits still covering me. I kind of think she thinks of our situation as a divorce, minus the final paperwork.

I have to be honest here, being a recovering alcoholic and starting to do the steps has made me realize just how much I deprived her of a loving and emotionally engaged husband. The other night we were looking in to each others eyes during a pause in a conversation, and we just kept staring. She started crying, saying that no man had ever looked at her that way before, and that during our marriage I had barely looked at her, period. This made me realize just how badly I mistreated her emotionally, and the biggest shock to me now is that she botheraed to stay with me for 20. We both got married young as strong Baptists with the belief marriage was for life no matter what, so I guess that kind of sadly carried me this far. I think she is wavering now because I had to surrender my ego to begin my recovery, and I am so focused on the present, and enjoying each moment, she has been blown away by the change. She calls me Scrooge because I am like him at the end of the book/movie -- a kid enjoying life for the very first time.

So all this is wrapped up in the fact that she had to go against all of her morals to finally decide to walk away. Like many wise posters here have said, usually that type of intense decision is final. When an addict recovers and does a full 180 though, I think it messes with the mind of the most strong willed women out there and why I think I may still have a shot. I look the same, but I am a completely different person. She just doesn't think she can get past the hurt of 20 years of a lonely marriage to get back to giving me another shot.

And back to the OM, a small bit of insight: my wife is a workaholic university prof (psychology lol), doing 70+ hours per week. Like many profs, she is in burnout, and looks to meditation and mystical experiences to try to escape and make sense of it all. She is going on a 10 day meditation retreat next week. The OM is very similar in looks and age to me, has had a crush on her for 15+ years, and is really in to mysticism/meditation/paranormal. She obviously wants to flee to that, the same way she flees to mysticism to escape her oxygen depriving career. Maybe I should just let it happen, go my own way, and if I happen to be single when her fairy tale explodes try to reconnect. I carry a lot of guilt around right now, because while she is far from perfect, she is a person of strong moral character, and if I had been half the man during our marriage that I feel I am today we would have no doubt made it through with flying colours. To be honest, I'd love to have her back, but with all I have put her through I just hope most of all she ends up happy - she deserves it.

I must say it has helped being on that dating site though - just to see how many women are out there that could make me happy- it burst the the bubble I was in thinking I could never live without her.

No idea why I am rambling on about all this, only that this stuff consumes my thoughts and I really appreciate having somewhere to share it.

Cheers.

M180


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

So you are both dating and she is in the middle of an EA? Why are you staying married? Just move on. 

I get that this is sad but the writing is on the wall isn't it?


----------



## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Hello 180Man - I just read through your entire story and here is my view in simple points:


You were an alcoholic which caused the rift between your wife and yourself.


She was a workaholic and was also very calculated, precise and ordered in what she needed to do.


SHE IS USING YOU FOR (EMOTIONAL) SUPPORT RIGHT NOW and has been doing this for a while. This has absolutely nothing to do with love or wanting to stay with you.


Like others have said to you, she had already started her affair with the OM and thus gave you encouragement to go do the same while she continued to rely on you for emotional support. She needs both you and the OM for this.


When you tried to kiss her, she felt that she was being disloyal to the OM - due to her chosen field, she used a lot of psychobabble to explain to you the emotional hurt blah blah blah!


You need to deal with the financial split professionally as this is the ONLY thing that is real here. All the rest is in your mind! Get a proper bulldog solicitor on to this. She will undervalue any of your efforts and overvalue hers. You will regret not taking proper action on this down the line once you are thinking properly again.


Expose the affair for what it is. She has found someone and probably did long before kicking you out. Make sure everyone knows about this. Don't worry about her being mad about it because the way things are going, the gloves will come off soon in the financial negotiations. Her telling you about the assets and financial split "no matter what" should have been the very clear writing on the wall for you. She has every intention of divorcing you (never a doubt in her mind) while trying to keep you around for occasional emotional support.


Do not make plans for next Christmas and while you can stay civil, completely rule out being a "friend" - that will mess with your mind and eventually destroy you.


Do the 180 properly - only communicate with her regarding family separation and financial matters - nothing else. Forget about being a friend as it is going to come back and bite you in the a$$ royally!


Do not get fooled ..... again!


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

OP, you said this:
"I carry a lot of guilt around right now, because while she is far from perfect, she is a person of strong moral character, "

A woman of strong moral character WOULD NOT be having and affair while married -- separated or not. SHE IS MARRIED -- this is cheating -- this is not a moral person. A strong moral character would GET DIVORCED before doing anything. I think you are taking entirely TOO much blame on yourself for this. A person who works 70+ hours a week isn't exactly focusing on her marriage or you. I think she is using her psych skills to screw you over so that SHE feels ok with cheating.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

This is going to sound harsh and blunt,and it's just my opinion. 

You are her emotional gauze pad while she figures herself out.

It's true that you are finally realizing the emotional pain and damage your alcoholism caused. It's making you feel guilty, but try to also see it as a learning experience. Realize that you do not wish to be that man again. Your healing is going to take time, even though your changes turned around rather fast. Rome was not built in a day. I'd suggest that you improve yourself but consider holding off dating for a time and living completely alone. 

She will not swing to another branch until it is firmly in place. An EA is not a firm enough branch, so she swings back to you because you are still there and stable. Her moments with you are temporary, and off she is again in search of something else stable without a history. This is the limbo you speak of. She is not entirely yours, and she is keeping you in limbo with this talk of a "cracked" reconciliation door. Listen to what I'm saying because I did it myself. I once held on to anything I could without really knowing what I wanted. I was so in conflict and once an emotional support was no longer there in my life, and I lived without it for a time, I suddenly realized my truth. And I acted. 

She is afraid of keeping the door wide open, in case you relapse or she possibly finds a more reliable match (and doesn't want to deprive herself of the opportunity). She also doesn't want to close the door to you completely with your son making her feel guilty for even thinking it. It's a struggle between her feelings of "I deserve better" mixed with frustration at seeing you now as the man she probably always wanted and needed. 

SHE is the one in limbo dragging you along for the ride. And your love for her keeps you nearby. Your guilt for your past actions does as well.

That is why posters are suggesting you detach. She needs to make some tough decisions without your continued presence, emotionally and physically. And she can't make them clearly while you AND another man are both in the picture, even if he's only present emotionally.

And you need to make some tough decisions on your end. You simply cannot make them without a clear head.

If you are not both 100% in for reconciliation, with no other person in the wings, then you're not ready, IMO, and you need to live as such.

Last thing, I urge you to not stay "friends." You can amicably and respectfully co-parent. But staying her friend will hurt your chances in future relationships. If my husband's ex wife was his friend, I'd have dumped him long ago. He's amicable with her, which I respect more.


----------



## FalCod (Dec 6, 2017)

Every situation is different, but yours reminds me of a situation I know of except that my friend is the woman. They aren't separated, but they may as well be given how they live. He failed her (I don't know the details) in their past. He has changed completely and has been a completely devoted spouse and father. It doesn't matter to her. She no longer loves him and can't imagine that changing. I think she stays with him because she doesn't want to be the bad guy. I suspect that she secretly hopes that he'll have an affair or do something new that she can point to as the reason they are divorcing. 

I think your wife no longer loves you. I think that once that happens, it is very hard for it to change. If you push for it, you look weak and less attractive. If you don't, they drift away. I'm not counseling that you give up all hope, but I am saying that you are in a situation that is unlikely to get better. Falling out of love is a problem that seems very, very hard to correct.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Satya said:


> This is going to sound harsh and blunt,and it's just my opinion.
> 
> You are her emotional gauze pad while she figures herself out.
> 
> ...


I could not have said it better. I could not have.

M180, my youthful firecracker of choice, is slowly being discarded.
Taken apart, piece by piece, fiber by fiber. Until, the sober man remains.

Remains, dried out, depleted. A raisin in the sun.

The thing about raisins. They can be put in water and reconstituted.
I think his wife is doing what @Satya said.

And she is doing a good job.
I have faith in her. She appears honest, though not really helpful to M180.
She is too passive. She feels guilt.

I certainly agree she should have waited for the divorce to find another man. But she is weak.
She needs a hand. The OM wants in her pants. She wants only his shoulder.
She may take him to her bed, but is not in a hurry. Sex does not seem a priority to her.
Oh, yeah, it is on the list. Should it not be?

She needs a man in her life. That is all she knows. She knows not, living totally on her own.

She does have love for her husband. Moreso, ILYBIANILWY.

I trust M180 too. Hopefully, alcohol will not dampen his fuse.

Alcohol is a universal solvent. It loosened and clouded 180M's mind.
It dissolved his marriage.

SunCMars- in a lucid moment.


----------



## cma62 (Jul 31, 2010)

@180Man...I have read your thread from start to finish. 

After your third or fourth post....your wife’s comments and reactions prompted me to wonder if she was checked out of the relationship because she had feelings for somebody else.

After reading that she does ..she is not playing fair.

Your new found way of life and changes are going to improve your way of life with or without her.
I was trying to put myself in her shoes....my H isn’t an alcoholic but if he had made as much effort and perseverance to better himself and improve the quality of life in the relationship as you had....although I would be on guard.....as I wouldn’t fully trust the changes unless they had been excecuted for a lot longer....I would definitely make an effort to give another chance and see where the relationship took us ....it seems she was aloof and appreciated the changes but something was holding her back....just my intuition....which proved to be true.

You are her default....the one she will fall back on when things don’t work out with OM. Don’t play this game with her.
You are repentant and have taken responsibility for how you messed up your marriage and have done the heavy lifting to change.

She is not certain who she wants... OM or you.
Don’t let her play with your emotions and get your hopes up.
Make the decision for her....be the strong decisive one. Move out move on and find somebody that wants you for the new improved you.....only after you have spent some time living alone and rid yourself of the guilt you are feeling for the demise of the marriage.

Don’t *****foot on the fence hoping she’s going to pick you.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Thanks as always for the replies, even it they are not what I would have preferred to hear.

This is helping me a lot, and is popping the bubble I am currently trapped in. I feel I'm on the neutral edge where I could easily fall in love with her again, but also (not as easily) continue to detach to the point of full NC.

I will be moving out in 20 days, and W will be gone for half of that on a meditation retreat in any case.

My strategy from here until the end of the month is to be the ideal husband I should always have been. I wish to do this for 3 reasons:
- to practice and prepare myself for my next relationship.
- to make a small token of amends to W for the husband I wasn't able to be.
- to create a stark contrast for my absence next month, the only leverage that I have left I think at this point to attempt to invite her to reconcile.

I wanted to ask - with nothing left to lose at this point, is there a proposal I can attempt with her, i.e., give up the OM and I will wait for 6 months to see if your marriage-hurt heals? Or should I just move on?

I am definitely fueled by guilt at this point to a large degree, but know I could love her in a way she never thought possible if she gives me the chance. She knows this too- my changes have been much beyond expectation to not believe that that would be the case.

Thanks all,

M180


----------



## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

Quick question, do you know if the OM is going on the retreat with her?

If so, that may indicate what path you need to take for yourself.

Yes, you have made a mess of things and you seem to be taking your share of the responsibility.

Leave the financial stuff to the lawyers who will hopefully come a fair deal. That way there is one less thing for the both of you to personally fight about.

Good luck.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Noble1 said:


> Quick question, do you know if the OM is going on the retreat with her?
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck.


^^^this^^^^

First, nice job on kicking the habit! Not an easy task. 

You state your W is currently dating a man who for 15 years has had shine for your W. She took this opportunity (unbeknownst to you) and played the game of "I can't imagine you with another woman." Yet, she is ok with you imaging what it is like with her and OM? For me, that is wrong on many levels. Your W should have not started dating while you are still at home and in a state of recovery. Honestly, your W added additional emotion baggage you should not have to carry while in recovery. Sorry my friend, I see that is selfish. Currently your W is self-serving Either she is in or out. The slightly open door and stringing along is calculating. But to what end? If your W is in fact sincere about the indecision you can't be left in limbo. You have to drop the hammer. Your W, in your posts, in a less than round about way is telling you to move on. Your W will NOT be the "one" that finally ended it. That will be yours to bear. It my be right as to the years of drinking but it is wrong to have you shoulder this emotional roller coaster your W is operating while you are still in recovery. There should not be OM. See that for what it is. The day you roll out of the drive to the new place is the day OM will be at your home. I see this from a few post back where your W admits to OM in the picture. That plays a huge part in your W indecision with you. Effectively, your W is testing the waters. 

Take the new you, get out there and show it off. You earned it. You my friend will be OK. Why? Because anyone who can beat the addition of alcohol or any other substance can beat anything. 

We are here for you. Keep posting.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Noble1 said:


> Quick question, do you know if the OM is going on the retreat with her?


He is definitely not. It wouldn't matter anyway - it is a silent retreat and women and men are separated for almost all of it.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

This is exactly what I needed to hear right now, thank you!



Yeswecan said:


> ^^^this^^^^
> 
> First, nice job on kicking the habit! Not an easy task.
> 
> ...


----------



## cma62 (Jul 31, 2010)

You are harbouring too much guilt.

Yes, you messed up...but you have also taken responsibility for your behaviour and worked hard to kick an addiction....that’s huge.

This doesn’t give your wife the right to have an EA whilst you are both still in the house together.....that is just selfish on her part.
It’s like rubbing your face in it...very callous.
She wants you to be there just in case....and she wants the other man....cake eater......so unfair to you.

Unfortunately it sounds like she’s done and stringing you along...it’s very accurate that when a woman is done....she will rarely get back what she once felt.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Your wife is wanting to cake eat while keeping you on the back burner. Only a doormat would accept this.

Why do you think she wants the separation? She's going to try out her other man full time.

If it was me I'd file. If you stay in this you'll surrender your self respect and soul.

Get everything out of the marriage they you are entitled too including part of her retirement and alimony if that's whats allowed. If you don't the other man will enjoy it immensely.

Better find your manhood but you're about to get played hard.

Wake up. If it was her she'd go for everything she was lawfully entitled too.

Being the better man doesn't mean you roll over and take it up the ass.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

So I confronted her last night, and asked whether our separation was leading to divorce, reconciliation, or unknown. She said she considered it unknown. I told her I thought our relationship didn't have a chance. She told me she thought we did, but we need space and time away from each other before we could even explore that possibility. I then asked her about her intentions with OM. She told me she regretted ever calling him, but that she wouldn't cut off communications with him. She told me she would not be entering in to any relationship in the foreseeable future, but didn't want to lie to me and make me think he wasn't a possibility. I told her that I was working hard on detaching and recovery, and OM had placed a huge stress on me that I had not anticipated. She said she was sorry for me, that she had been the cause of it, but that it was up to me now to 'let her go'.

She told me she was shocked at where we ended up - that she thought I would be drinking and numbing my way through to the move-out date, and that the house would have been full of anger the whole time. She told me she was grateful for the friendship, and that the last few months had been very special to her. I asked her why, if she thought I had turned things around so much, she wouldn't consider reconciliation. She told me that she had to respect the voice inside of her telling her she she had had emotionally disconnected sex with me too many times to jump back in - and that she needed time and space for healing, and she didn't know how long that would be.

I finished by telling her that I would respect her wishes, even if I was unhappy with them, but that I would not be a Plan B. I told her I hadn't done anything on it yet, but that I had joined a dating site. She understood that, and offered only the "reassurance" that she wasn't going to jump in to a relationship with OM, that it would be "months, maybe years" before she considered she would be in a space to do so. Regardless, she said I was free to do as I thought best, although hearing about me with another woman would make her sad.

So, what next?? My mind is spinning here, I am at work and can hardly think of anything else...

M180


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

180Man said:


> So I confronted her last night, and asked whether our separation was leading to divorce, reconciliation, or unknown. She said she considered it unknown. I told her I thought our relationship didn't have a chance. She told me she thought we did, but we need space and time away from each other before we could even explore that possibility. I then asked her about her intentions with OM. She told me she regretted ever calling him, but that she wouldn't cut off communications with him. She told me she would not be entering in to any relationship in the foreseeable future, but didn't want to lie to me and make me think he wasn't a possibility. I told her that I was working hard on detaching and recovery, and OM had placed a huge stress on me that I had not anticipated. She said she was sorry for me, that she had been the cause of it, but that it was up to me now to 'let her go'.
> 
> You are being played sir. You W is not sorry she contacted OM. If she was she would cut off communication. Who adds needless drama to a person life who is attempting to straighten it out? As I stated earlier, you are going to have to be the bad guy and end it. Your W will not. Your W does not care about your recovery with your statement of stress caused by OM and your W response.
> 
> ...


What next? Detach, move out and move on. You will be fine with or without her. BTW, the 'friends' crap is nothing more than having you around to cut the grass and unclog her toilet. That my friend is over. Let your W have the space she wants(all inclusive)


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

180Man said:


> So I confronted her last night, and asked whether our separation was leading to divorce, reconciliation, or unknown. She said she considered it unknown. I told her I thought our relationship didn't have a chance. She told me she thought we did, but we need space and time away from each other before we could even explore that possibility. I then asked her about her intentions with OM. She told me she regretted ever calling him, but that she wouldn't cut off communications with him. She told me she would not be entering in to any relationship in the foreseeable future, but didn't want to lie to me and make me think he wasn't a possibility. I told her that I was working hard on detaching and recovery, and OM had placed a huge stress on me that I had not anticipated. She said she was sorry for me, that she had been the cause of it, but that it was up to me now to 'let her go'.


I am not surprised that your mind is spinning. What a bunch of contradictory clap-trap!

"Space and time" I understand. Sometimes it is needed for a relationship reset/reboot.

But this: _*I then asked her about her intentions with OM. She told me she regretted ever calling him, but that she wouldn't cut off communications with him.*_...WTF does that mean? Cake-eating at it's finest. If she regretted it she wouldn't be talking to that Ahole any more, DUH!

_*She told me she would not be entering in to any relationship in the foreseeable future, but didn't want to lie to me and make me think he wasn't a possibility.*_ More cake-eating and hedging her bets so she can do what she pleases without being called out on it. Doesn't sound like a "moral" woman to me.



180Man said:


> She told me she was shocked at where we ended up - that she thought I would be drinking and numbing my way through to the move-out date, and that the house would have been full of anger the whole time. She told me she was grateful for the friendship, and that the last few months had been very special to her. I asked her why, if she thought I had turned things around so much, she wouldn't consider reconciliation. She told me that she had to respect the voice inside of her telling her she she had had emotionally disconnected sex with me too many times to jump back in - and that she needed time and space for healing, and she didn't know how long that would be.


If this goes to divorce, why would you want to remain friends with her? That is just a woman's way of convincing herself that cheating on you was ok, since you are still friends.

"Respect the voice inside of her" = if it isn't her idea, it isn't a good idea. This is just complete bull****, but what you can do is accept that and stop pushing her for anything. 



180Man said:


> I finished by telling her that I would respect her wishes, even if I was unhappy with them, but that I would not be a Plan B.


This is good, but I think you need to follow up on that and set some hard boundaries with her. Might as well be outspoken about it too and let her know.



180Man said:


> I told her I hadn't done anything on it yet, but that I had joined a dating site. She understood that, and offered only the "reassurance" that she wasn't going to jump in to a relationship with OM, that it would be "months, maybe years" before she considered she would be in a space to do so. Regardless, she said I was free to do as I thought best, although hearing about me with another woman would make her sad.


More wishy-washy nonsense, because "months, maybe years" could also mean weeks, maybe days...think about it. 

I think you need to get off the dating site, because frankly what kind of woman is going to want to get serious with you if you are still married to and pining for your W, and without a divorce pending. Take charge and set some hard boundaries with your W, i.e. "no dating", no relationship with the POSOM whatsoever. Time alone will mean exactly that...TIME ALONE! If she doesn't like it, then you need to steel yourself to the fact that this is headed for divorce in short order and drive that bus, because she clearly would prefer to cake-eat, treat you like her emotional tampon, F around on you and then have everyone else blame you for the collapse of the marriage.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

Triple dittos on what Tron and YesWeCan said. As long as she is interested in other men it's pointless to delay the inevitable. Her being ok with you being on a dating site is her projecting her guilt onto you. Her comment on sex with you is telling. She checked out w/o ever telling you and I'd bet money her affair is much further along than she is letting on. I think her claiming your alcohol abuse was the catalyst is BS. She shopped around and and you handed her an excuse on a golden platter. Now it's all your fault. Funny how it always works like that. Forget about her ever admitting this. She is already a cheater and cheaters lie and minimize as a matter of routine. It's really pointless at this point to engage her in any conversation. 

Bottom line is when your wife tells you she is interested in other men and can't stand sex with you its time to simply file for divorce and move on. If filing for divorce and going through with it does not wake her up nothing will. Waiting on her to make up her mind as you being plan B is pointless. You need to drive the point home that you are no one's plan B. With actions. not words. Continue the 180 and be strong. Sorry you are here.


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

180Man said:


> So I confronted her last night, and asked whether our separation was leading to divorce, reconciliation, or unknown. She said she considered it unknown. I told her I thought our relationship didn't have a chance. She told me she thought we did, but we need space and time away from each other before we could even explore that possibility. I then asked her about her intentions with OM. She told me she regretted ever calling him, but that she wouldn't cut off communications with him. She told me she would not be entering in to any relationship in the foreseeable future, but didn't want to lie to me and make me think he wasn't a possibility. I told her that I was working hard on detaching and recovery, and OM had placed a huge stress on me that I had not anticipated. She said she was sorry for me, that she had been the cause of it, but that it was up to me now to 'let her go'.
> 
> She told me she was shocked at where we ended up - that she thought I would be drinking and numbing my way through to the move-out date, and that the house would have been full of anger the whole time. She told me she was grateful for the friendship, and that the last few months had been very special to her. I asked her why, if she thought I had turned things around so much, she wouldn't consider reconciliation. She told me that she had to respect the voice inside of her telling her she she had had emotionally disconnected sex with me too many times to jump back in - and that she needed time and space for healing, and she didn't know how long that would be.
> 
> ...


Take command.

Drop the papers on her ASAP.

Decisive, masculine, no-nonsense.

Watch how she responds. That will tell you all you need to know.

She will never want any man that dances to her tune - which is what you are currently doing.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Stop announcing to her what you're doing. You don't owe her information on your process and she's not your mommy. You don't need her permission, buy-in, or OK. You're an adult getting ready to separate. 

Go and do what you need to do. She will do what she needs to do. THAT is detaching.


----------



## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

It is fantastic that so far, for the time being you have regained your control to alcohol, but it seems that it has caused you to lose your manhood, your sense of self-respect as a man. As a man I wouldn't tolerate it for one minute that my wife is seeing someone else. I would end my relationship immediately because I have self-respect. 

You are doing the pick me dance that never, ever does the intended; au contraire, my friend, au contraire. YOU have handed her all the controls to determine your future, that's weak, very weak. Please, take control of the situation, show her that you'll not longer be standing by, waiting for the axe to fall on you when she finally decides it, because looking from the outside in, this will be the most probable outcome.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

My fear is definitely letting my mind and heart cloud my judgment here.

I have a few more revelations that I don't have time to share now, but will post later tonight. Might throw a couple of wrinkles in to things, but wanted to say thank you now to all of the above posters. This advice is helping me keep my head on straight.

I'm feeling much better today than yesterday - I think I was run down and letting my mind get the better of me.

I'm glad I resisted relationship talk with her last night - I would have come across as a needy mess.

Tx all

M180


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I read the whole thread. I see the OP is guilt ridden and blames himself. But little tidbits keep seeping into his comments. And they make me wonder if perhaps the OP should consider that the reason he became an alcoholic in the first place (if indeed he was, because he seemed to be a highly functional one) might have been because of who his W is?

I went thru some times after my divorce (and still do at times) of believing I was totally to blame, because of the way I acted, because I had never "looked into her eyes that way", because of...pick your reason. I realize now that I was very unhappy when I was married. Like the OP has stated, but never admitted, in many ways I felt as though I was being cuckolded and that I was just kept around to watch my ex live her life. 

The reality of it is that I felt unhappy because I was unhappy. My ex, saw to that. Little things like saying I wasn't successful, or questioning every decision I made, to telling me my thoughts were wrong or sick. Small drips over long periods of time are what made the Grand Canyon.

I guess, given how this thread has played out, is that perhaps the OP needs to reconsider his guilt and start realizing that he didn't get the way he did by himself. She bears some responsibility. I congratulated him on his recovery, but he needs to realize there was a cause that started his problem.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Hi all,

Thanks to all who have posted. I do still harbour a lot of guilt, if I had quit drinking years earlier I could have given her a happy marriage, and she would not currently be separating. I am working on letting this go, and showing myself some compassion. I need to look at the positives that I am over 100 days sober with no signs of slowing down, and am working on meditation and mindfulness to boot.

At this point I have found hard evidence that suggests that although she is attracted to OM, she has elected to take at least 3-4 months to work on herself. After that, she will reassess her situation. Her journal entries do not include anything about me, so I can only conclude that I am no longer a central consideration for her.

She also told me that my initiating a kiss with her really changed her opinion of me. She felt very close, but when she realized I was going for a romantic overture she recoiled, and knew she has to put up boundaries. She even said that had I not done that she felt she would be far closer to a space where she could consider reconciliation, but that is water under the bridge.

I have had a few lapses over the past few days, and she is currently angry with me for continually bringing up the OM. I realize now that there is no point in doing so. I told her that I may need to initiate NC in order to get right in the head. She started crying but said she understood. She thinks of me as a dear friend, but nothing more. She told me that she wished she could love me again, but that the extreme hurt/neglect of my emotional absence will take a long time to heal. She told me there was hope, but she didn't want to give me false hope and told me she hopes I move on.

She is leaving for the meditation retreat in 2 days. I am going to do my best to leave her with a positive impression. When she returns, she will help me pack up and I will move to my rental unit.

My mindframe at this point is that I need to let her go. Just knowing this has made me feel much better, that I do not have to live in limbo. I am inspired by Day One's thread, and will use that as a guide for living separately. He lived as if he held no hope, and I must do the same. I gotta focus on me, and stop shifting between the 180 and trying to please her.

I'm also going to see a lawyer while she is away to prepare for our financial separation.

I'll post here when I have something significant to add, but at this point I am abandoning hope to focus on me, knowing that with that strategy I will eventually be better off no matter what happens.

Thanks again all,

M180


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

180,

You're torturing yourself.

Just stop it.

One romantic move didn't do squat. Relationships don't grow or die on a dime. If you were at a point where "one more mistake" means it's over, it's already been over for some time.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Had an amazing day yesterday.

I am so pleased with who I am becoming, I haven't felt so good about myself in years.

W wanted to talk about how angry she was over the past 20 years, and how much grieving she had to do. Up until yesterday I would just apologize. Instead I told her it wasn't that simple, that I was done being a pincushion and that I needed space to heal. She wouldn't back down and it led to our first argument in some time.

I feel the decoupling really taking hold. I looked at her yesterday (before the argument) and thought to myself "she just isn't my type." I think I needed to know there was truly virtually zero chance left before I could start feeling this freedom.

M180


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

180Man said:


> W wanted to talk about how angry she was over the past 20 years, and how much grieving she had to do. Up until yesterday I would just apologize. Instead I told her it wasn't that simple, that I was done being a pincushion and that I needed space to heal. She wouldn't back down and it led to our first argument in some time.



Stop apologizing. Do it once and make a concerted effort to do better in the future. That is all you can do. 

What she is doing is dumping her anger and it makes her feel good, gives her a thrill, all at your expense. 

I've pulled out this one a few times: "I'm not going to be your whipping boy any more" and just walked out of the room...if they won't stop, you pick up your keys and walk out of the house.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Tron said:


> Stop apologizing. Do it once and make a concerted effort to do better in the future. That is all you can do.
> 
> *What she is doing is dumping her anger and it makes her feel good, gives her a thrill, all at your expense. *
> 
> I've pulled out this one a few times: "I'm not going to be your whipping boy any more" and just walked out of the room...if they won't stop, you pick up your keys and walk out of the house.


She seems unable to take on any responsibility for the failure of the marriage, even as she is the one who ended it. I don't need any closure or apology from her - I am the alcoholic. It just seems as though she needs to come out of this smelling like roses.

This is all very good for me, I feel the bubble I have been living in popping, and my head has been in a great space the last couple of days, despite the argument.

I'm excited about the future. Living alone, decorating/renovating my rental property my way (it is a 3 bedroom century home with a ton of possibilities). Having the freedom to come and go for half the week.

I know there will be loneliness, but there will also be as many AA meetings as I need to get to, as well as dating.

I am going for my first date on Saturday. It was supposed to be a coffee but after some texting she has already upgraded me straight to drinks. Now I am just wondering how I explain to her that mine will have to be non-alcoholic--I don't think I want to mention AA on a first date...

My IC has told me to go ahead and test the waters dating, but to take things very slow, and to avoid commitment for a few months at the very least.

Now that I feel like I am detaching, I am wondering why the h*ll I'm going to Mexico as a family... I guess I still see W as a good friend, but the love/obsession is fading quickly.

Cheers, thanks for letting me ramble,

M180


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Tron said:


> Stop apologizing. Do it once and make a concerted effort to do better in the future. That is all you can do.
> 
> What she is doing is dumping her anger and it makes her feel good, gives her a thrill, all at your expense.
> 
> I've pulled out this one a few times: "I'm not going to be your whipping boy any more" and just walked out of the room...if they won't stop, you pick up your keys and walk out of the house.


Better yet. Just leave the room and say nothing.

Do not answer texts. No reason to dignify anger dumps with any response at all.

Her anger is HERS to deal with.

It's likely been there the entire time.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

An update:

My wife returned from a 2 week meditation retreat last Sunday, completely worn down, and I have been taking care of her since. As a result, we spent most of the week together. She has let down a lot of her barriers, but we still aren't back to where we were before I tried to kiss her at Christmas.

The mediation retreat seems to have really had a profound effect on her. She is now saying that she feels called to the single life, and wants to devote her life to indigenous and buddhist mysticism. I think that is all well and cool, but I also think once the glow wears off from the retreat she will feel differently. I think this may also be code that she still needs a lot more time to heal before considering a relationship - with me or anyone else.

I was supposed to move out a couple of days ago, but due to her burnout from the retreat she's really said nothing about it. Once she is better, I am going to take the initiative and move out on my own, rather than waiting for her to ask me.

I am continuing the modified 180 (due to my circumstances as a recovering alcoholic). I am focusing on me, giving her the emotional intimacy and care that she so clearly wanted during our marriage, but then withdrawing to go to the gym, AA meetings, meet friends etc. She tries not to show it but I can tell she doesn't want me to leave when I do. I've also caught her stealing glances at me, but I could be reading too much in to that. (I am back to my ideal weight, dressing better, and grooming myself to look sharp - much different than usual)

I have told her my current plan, which I do not believe I have shared here:

For the next 8 months, living on my own, I will be focused exclusively on work and recovery. I will remain sober, but also give up my nicotine, video game, tv binging, and porn habits. I won't become romantically involved with anyone (including W in the off chance she offers). I know, I know, a lot to give up all at once, but I have been living without discipline for two decades, and if I can give up drinking, I surely have the discipline to give up the rest. The theory here is that I am intentionally discarding all the possible activities that would help me avoid dealing with the pain and discomfort I am in, and learn to deal with my emotions head on for a change. My free time will be spent reading, meditating, and renovating my new home (I own it, it is a historic brick 3 bedroom with a ton of potential, it will keep me busy!).

On top of everything else I am feeling much more detached from W than ever. I still hold out hope for us, but it is no longer the heart wrenching obsession it was a few weeks ago. I'd prefer a future with her, but also see the benefits and eventual happiness I would have without her.

I told her at the end of the 8 month period, I will reassess my situation but will likely start dating. She doesn't seem to want me to do this, and made a strange comment the other day that she wants to make herself 'indispensable' to me so that I will opt out of dating. She has also once again has started calling me her best friend, and told me she is just setting herself up for a lot of pain once I get in to a serious relationship and have to detach from our friendship.

My W may still be talking to the OM, but at this point I don't really care, and I haven't bothered to check her phone since she got back from the retreat, and won't be moving forward. I've asked her that I only wish to know if she intends to get in to a relationship so that I can emotionally prepare. She has agreed to that, but doesn't seem to be moving in that direction, at least for the near future.

My plan for contact once I move out is simple - contact her for all business affairs, and let her initiate anything else. She has already told me a bunch of things she would like to do with me, help me plan my renovation, continue working on a public school program we are planning, etc. so I think we will still be seeing each other quite often naturally. 

Any advice here would be helpful, am I going in the right direction? I feel pretty good that I am going in the right direction for me, I just want to keep my chances as high as I can for R if that is what I would still like to do at the end of the 8 months. I have read elsewhere that to live well and ignore her would be my best chance, but I think given my special circumstances as a alcoholic who emotionally neglected her that would be a bad idea and only reinforce the vibes that caused her to walkaway in the first place. I do worry though that she will get used to seeing me as a friend, and that might shut the doors to a future romance.

Cheers,

M180


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

That's good.

My advice, don't tell her your plans unless it's for an absolutely necessary logistic's sake. Just get on with doing what you need to do for you.

Let her worry about her own self.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

180Man said:


> An update:
> 
> My wife returned from a 2 week meditation retreat last Sunday, completely worn down, and I have been taking care of her since. As a result, we spent most of the week together. She has let down a lot of her barriers, but we still aren't back to where we were before I tried to kiss her at Christmas.
> 
> ...


Actually, to me, it sounds as though you are still waffling between her and you. You still have dreams that you will be together, you are projecting your future plans to her in hopes that she will be waiting when she gets there. You are hungrily wolfing down whatever scraps she throws your way, takin them as a sign that she is not sure.
You need to act for YOU and YOU alone. You need to stop making accommodations for her. You altered your plans to move out (because she needed you so much)Yet she already told you she wants the single life. But YOU think it is just a phase so there you remain.
Also there is no such thing as "modified" 180. That is just another accommodation you are making and in doing so you remain stuck. The 180 is totally and completely about focusing solely on you and what is best for you. Throw the relationship out of your thinking, stop making allowances for her thinking or rather what you think she is thinking. Because none of it matters. The only thing that should matter is what you want, who you want to become and what you want out of life. 
If you wish to remain in never-never land the rest of your life, continue down the path you are on, making excuses, making allowances, and making accommodations for a possible reconciliation. Because that is where you are headed.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Ynot, thanks, what you wrote is intellectually what I tell myself every day but I'm obviously still not there yet. Hopefully once I move out I'll get the rest of the way there.

The difficulty is that she walked away form the marriage because I was emotionally unavailable and did little to nothing to show her I cared about her (all I truthfully cared about was alcohol), and she tried several times to work that out with me but I stubbornly refused to budge until it was too late. Now that I am in AA, meditating, and doing IC, I'm opening up emotionally in a way that she never thought possible. I guess you will say the same thing back to me, but I don't want to cut off the emotional closeness we've developed considering it is exactly what she wanted out of the marriage.

I guess the bottom line for me is this: move forward for me, go through the tough 8 months ahead without thought for the relationship, and see where I am at. At that point I may wish to re-initiate a reconciliation attempt, or who knows, maybe date other women. Maybe she will have decided to be single permanently, or initiate a relationship with someone else. That's in the future though, so I need to put it out of my mind and live one day at a time, knowing the next few months will help make me the man I've always known I could be if I stay true to my path.

Half of me is fully prepared to move on, but half of me still holds out hope. I guess you are saying the best case scenario for me lies in moving on, and letting whatever happens in the future unfold without thought to it until that moment arrives. Tough, but doable, I have come a long way from where I was a month ago.

Cheers,

M180


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

>>The mediation retreat seems to have really had a profound effect on her. She is now saying that she feels called to the single life, and wants to devote her life to indigenous and buddhist mysticism.<<

I'm sorry - but I simply started laughing out loud when I saw this.

I do not wish to hijack your thread, but bear with me.

My wife moved out in May of 2011 and again "forever" in November of 2011

She moved into our rental property with her kids.

Periodically, she would ask me to come and chat or visit, etc.

I distinctly remember walking in one day and her phone lit up with my text telling her I was outside.

On it? A picture of the Buddha.

"I'm thinking of converting to Buddhism"

Brother - while I thought it was "cute and a bit charming", I don't miss those days at all.

FWIW, this DOES indicate that her mind is open. But, an idea will only be good if it's hers. Let me repeat that.... Her ideas are the good ones.

This is a fundamental understanding of what it's like to be a partner to a woman like this.

Talking her "into" anything is pointless, because then anything that happens becomes "your fault"

Improve yourself and enjoy the ride. Stay at 50 thousand feet and observe events as if you aren't present.

You'll be surprised how easily you start to see what the good moves are.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

ReturntoZero said:


> >>The mediation retreat seems to have really had a profound effect on her. She is now saying that she feels called to the single life, and wants to devote her life to indigenous and buddhist mysticism.<<
> 
> I'm sorry - but I simply started laughing out loud when I saw this.
> 
> ...


R2Z You seem to have her number. Her IQ is above 150, yet in certain matters she can act very naively. Right now, for example, she seems to think that intense meditation will solve all of her issues, and that her issues are somehow 'unique' to her. No doubt meditation will help, but there are thousands of spouses of alcoholics who are ready to help her understand a large part of her pain and she won't even consider Al-Anon.

For most of our marriage I just told her practical solutions when she would bring up some sort of left-field idea. She would almost always go along, but never forget if my advice didn't work out. She won't listen to my advice now unless I am very humble about offering it (which, since sobriety, I have become much better at doing).

Her meditation burnout is getting worse, and she has asked me to remain in the house for February. I told her I will be moving out as planned, but will available as much as she needs for support. (She is in pretty bad shape, an hour of shopping and she needs to lie on the couch for the rest of the day when she typically works 65-70 hour weeks).

M180


----------



## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Meditation burnout?
Are you effing kidding?
Send her yoga wannabe ass to Rishikesh . On 20 bucks per day and get back to TAM about meditation burnout.

What a firikkin joke.
Hey OP- take buttercup to the creamatorium in Nepal. YOUR ASS is going to need a Sadu experience burnout recovery.

What a crock of Silliness.


----------



## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Has she smelled burning bodies on the Ganges?
Or just had too much loving in Marin?


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Sandcastle,

Pretty much all of the posts so far have been incredibly helpful, yours plain useless. 

A 10 day meditation retreat is not a vacation, is it like a full body/soul enema. She is far from the first person to experience severe negative symptoms from such an experience. In fact, it is relatively common.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-knight-of-the-souls/372766/

Please do not post in this thread again, thank you.

M180


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

180Man said:


> R2Z You seem to have her number. Her IQ is above 150, yet in certain matters she can act very naively. Right now, for example, she seems to think that intense meditation will solve all of her issues, and that her issues are somehow 'unique' to her. No doubt meditation will help, but there are thousands of spouses of alcoholics who are ready to help her understand a large part of her pain and she won't even consider Al-Anon.
> 
> For most of our marriage I just told her practical solutions when she would bring up some sort of left-field idea. She would almost always go along, but never forget if my advice didn't work out. She won't listen to my advice now unless I am very humble about offering it (which, since sobriety, I have become much better at doing).
> 
> ...


180,

People with rugged childhoods get stunted emotionally. Many exhibit similar symptoms and behaviors.

Imagine my surprise when some good men here described what it was like to live with my wife when they'd never met her.

It was eye-opening.

It's quite clear she needs you. BUT.... you will eventually have to decide what sort of relationship is "enough" for you to be happy.

This means you have to firmly establish boundaries with her. That will be a long and arduous process. Because when someone is emotionally stunted in a given area, their behavior is child-like. And, not in a good way. How many times do you have to tell a 4-5 year old not to do something they're predisposed to do?

I was cautioned that we often have to tell them we're "not ok" with a given behavior 50 thousand times before they start to believe we're serious.

It CAN be done. If you read my thread, you'll get a play by play of how I'm attempting this.

Some days it's no fun. Some days it's truly rewarding.


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Yo - 180Man

The "Last" thing you should do is share this link with "you know who"

But, I want you to laugh with me.

Meditation doesn't make you a better person | Daily Mail Online

I want you to make a late New Year's Resolution to laugh quite a bit more this year at your situation and life in general.

Humor is balm for the soul.


----------



## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

...


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

@ReturntoZero

Yes, I am definitely trying to laugh more, I need to watch more comedies I think! It really does help. 

I think meditation is kind of like coffee, a new study comes out every few months saying 'its good, no it does nothing, no those studies were wrong' I myself have ADHD, and meditation is definitely not a magical cure to my ever wandering mind, but it is seeming to help. Hard to tell though because I am also attending 3-4 AA meetings every week and have been perfectly sober, so I can't really tease out how much which of each is actually helping me. Not drinking seems like the obvious variable but it is the 10 steps after you've surrendered and given up booze where the hard work improving yourself actually happens, work I am heavily engaged in now.
@Machjo

Thanks for the encouragement brother! It seems as though I am headed in exactly the direction you have suggested: I am in the process of moving out and have told W that I will be focused on nothing but recovery for the next 8 months. No romance (with her or anyone else), video games, nicotine, porn, or Netflix binge watching (or booze but I hope that is obvious by now that I am serious about that!). I lived that life of pleasurable distractions for many years and they have left me unfulfilled, so figure I can do 8 months and actually learn to live with these hard feelings rather than numb them out through distraction. W seems impressed that I am willing to go that length, but hasn't made me any promises about what she will do and whether she would be ready to consider R (then or ever). 

The end result is that I will be a much better man at the end of those 8 months, and only 44, so with or without her I will have a better life then I had in years. I hope it is with her, but my new found self-respect is growing such that I'm now coming to believe that she will be losing out more than me if R doesn't happen!!

8 months is a long time considering how much has changed in the last 4, so anything is possible. I could be fooling myself, but I think that the alcoholism and the 180 away from it may make my situation different than a typical WAW scenario. 

M180


----------



## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

...


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

Machjo, thanks for the open and honest advice. Porn was actually a much worse problem for me when I was drinking, I would be hungover and want to lie in bed for a couple of hours before getting up and CNN and porn were basically my go-tos. Now it is just a release for me, but could easily become a distraction so I am giving it up. My worst addictions, those negatively affecting my life the most, are definitely alcohol followed by video games. Fortunately I am free of both right now and want to keep it that way... 1 drink is too many, 15 are not enough. 10 minutes of video games are too many, 3 hours isn't enough. Those slogans can pretty much describe much of my life unfortunately.

Cheers,

M180


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

So a major update.

As per my previous posts I have been taking care of my W as she has been very sick. She told me the other day that she is beginning to become emotionally close to me again and that she thinks she is setting herself up for more pain down the road.

I left Saturday evening to go watch a concert with my best buddy, and had a coffee date lined up for the next morning. I phoned her before the concert to find out how she was doing, and let her know I would be home late morning the next day. She told me she needed me at home as soon as possible. I told her I was planning on hitting an AA meeting to cover for the coffee date. She said she still needed me home. So I then admitted to her that I had a coffee date with a pretty woman that I would prefer not to miss, and then of course she ripped in to me "why would you lie to me? I thought you weren't going to date anyone for 8 months!" I told her that it really wasn't any of her business, but that as part of my detachment strategy I would be seeking friendships - but not relationships- with other women, and that I was not currently under any obligation to tell her what I was up to. (She answered sarcastically 'oh, of course you want friendship with other PRETTY women...) So I drove home that night instead.

The next morning she seemed angry with me, and I laid it all out for her: "You've been speaking with another guy that you seemed interested in, and not being fully open with me about it, why do you care so much what I am doing?" She responded that she was not intending to be in any relationship with anyone, had thought that I wasn't either, and so she felt comfortable being close to me for the next 8 months. She started crying and suggesting that I should stop taking care of her and just go do my thing. I told her that although I did not feel in love with her any more, I had deep feelings for her and that my priority over anything else was making sure she got well. We had conversation after that about the changes I have been making in my life, how amazed she has been, and how proud she was. The rest of the day went very well.

This morning we went out together to pick up some used chairs for my new apartment. She made a comment that the chairs would serve me well in that apartment for many years. That got my back up and I asked her why she seemed so concerned about other women that I might date on the one hand, and then make a comment suggesting I would be living in my new place for 'many years' on the other. She then just kind of blurted out "I am confused about where I am at with things, but I have been feeling lately like I might want to get back together with you." This kind of shocked me, as I was not expecting to be anywhere near this stage for several more months, maybe years (if ever). In fact, I can't even remember how I responded. We then took our dog for a walk and talked about entirely unrelated stuff.

My current plan is this: quit any 'coffee dates' all together, keep spending as much quality time with W and supporting her through her illness as much as I can, but proceed with the move-out and the 8 month plan I have. This is the right thing to do for my recovery, and also doubles down with her on how committed I am to cement the changes I am making in my life and give her her own space.

Anyone have any thoughts on how I should proceed with this? Now that she has brought up the possibility of R, do I play it cool and detached (what I think I should do) or pursue the conversation about it? I don't want to mess this up, and the advice I have been getting on here has been pretty much bang on, so any thoughts are appreciated!

M180


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

180Man said:


> So a major update.
> 
> As per my previous posts I have been taking care of my W as she has been very sick. She told me the other day that she is beginning to become emotionally close to me again and that she thinks she is setting herself up for more pain down the road.


Blah blah blah



180Man said:


> I left Saturday evening to go watch a concert with my best buddy, and had a coffee date lined up for the next morning. I phoned her before the concert to find out how she was doing, and let her know I would be home late morning the next day. She told me she needed me at home as soon as possible. I told her I was planning on hitting an AA meeting to cover for the coffee date. She said she still needed me home. So I then admitted to her that I had a coffee date with a pretty woman that I would prefer not to miss, and then of course she ripped in to me "why would you lie to me? I thought you weren't going to date anyone for 8 months!" I told her that it really wasn't any of her business, but that as part of my detachment strategy I would be seeking friendships - but not relationships- with other women, and that I was not currently under any obligation to tell her what I was up to. (She answered sarcastically 'oh, of course you want friendship with other PRETTY women...) So I drove home that night instead.


Good!

The thought of you being with another woman is vexing to her...SO F'ING WHAT? 

Has she asked you to come home, to bed you, to R? No.



180Man said:


> The next morning she seemed angry with me, and I laid it all out for her: "You've been speaking with another guy that you seemed interested in, and not being fully open with me about it, why do you care so much what I am doing?" She responded that she was not intending to be in any relationship with anyone, had thought that I wasn't either, and so she felt comfortable being close to me for the next 8 months.


You are plan B. She wants to keep her plan B.



180Man said:


> She started crying and suggesting that I should stop taking care of her and just go do my thing. I told her that although I did not feel in love with her any more, I had deep feelings for her and that my priority over anything else was making sure she got well. We had conversation after that about the changes I have been making in my life, how amazed she has been, and how proud she was. The rest of the day went very well.


She used you as an emotional tampon. After confirming that you will be a good boy and remain plan B for her, she feels reassured that she is doing the right thing.



180Man said:


> This morning we went out together to pick up some used chairs for my new apartment. She made a comment that the chairs would serve me well in that apartment for many years. That got my back up and I asked her why she seemed so concerned about other women that I might date on the one hand, and then make a comment suggesting I would be living in my new place for 'many years' on the other.


Sounds like you are plan B. 



180Man said:


> She then just kind of blurted out "I am confused about where I am at with things, but I have been feeling lately like I might want to get back together with you." This kind of shocked me, as I was not expecting to be anywhere near this stage for several more months, maybe years (if ever). In fact, I can't even remember how I responded. We then took our dog for a walk and talked about entirely unrelated stuff.


I suspect that you responded that you will be a good plan B for her...she felt good about that and here you are.



180Man said:


> My current plan is this: quit any 'coffee dates' all together, keep spending as much quality time with W and supporting her through her illness as much as I can, but proceed with the move-out and the 8 month plan I have. This is the right thing to do for my recovery, and also doubles down with her on how committed I am to cement the changes I am making in my life and give her her own space.


I would not quit the coffee dates until she asks you to come home. Until then you are just Plan B. 



180Man said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on how I should proceed with this? Now that she has brought up the possibility of R, do I play it cool and detached (what I think I should do) or pursue the conversation about it? I don't want to mess this up, and the advice I have been getting on here has been pretty much bang on, so any thoughts are appreciated!


Her thoughts are like a fart in the wind. Actions are what counts.

Has she asked you to move home? No

Has she F'd the **** out of you? No

Continue cool and detached. Do your own thing, whatever that may be, without a concern for her or what she wants.

If she wants you back, she will let you know. She'll also need to dump her boyfriend. Just sayin'.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

180Man said:


> So a major update.
> 
> As per my previous posts I have been taking care of my W as she has been very sick. She told me the other day that she is beginning to become emotionally close to me again and that she thinks she is setting herself up for more pain down the road.
> 
> ...


Breadcrumbs dude.She’s leaving you breadcrumbs and you are eating them like they are fillet steak.
You are plan B.Plan B never becomes plan A.
Don’t ever be anyone’s plan B.
One more thing.Stop lying,it makes you look weak.
If you are meeting a woman either tell your wife or don’t but stop lying.


----------



## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

180Man said:


> Thanks so much for your time in reading and responding,


I commend you for writing a post that put most of the blame on yourself. It is understandable that your wife is not able to trust yet that your changes are permanent this time. What you can do is to continue to be a better person. In any case, at that time, you'll be in a much better place to be a good stable husband to someone and your current wife will think highly of you for the permanent changes you were able to make. I don't agree (from what I have read in this thread) that your wife viewed you as plan B.


----------



## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

@180Man, it is great to see that you are staying sober! This is mostly an encouraging update.

The only thing to me that is not encouraging is: stay away from other women. There is no way on this earth that your sponsor or your home group are in agreement that it is OK to date at this time, unless they aren't really following the program. You really shouldn't even be putting yourself in the situations where new romantic relationships can blossom. 

AA has zero recommendations when it comes to jerking off or TV/movie binging. It's better to do those things than to go putting yourself into situations like coffee dates, or just straight up dates. AA does have something to say about when it's safe to start new relationships. Your best thinking has not led you to good places; put your thoughts on how to recover aside and follow the people who have made a success of it, yes?

I want to point out that TAM is awesome at helping people recover their lives as a divorced person. It is great for helping betrayed spouses or mistreated spouses detach emotionally from their wayward/abusive spouse. There are quite a few successes who have gone on to rebuild good lives as single (and often re-married) people posting here.

There are only a handful of people who have rebuilt happy marriages after an active addiction. I can think of one couple in which the addicted wife went into rehab- she also was actively cheating on her BS. I can think of a few men posting who have quit drinking but I'm not sure whether the problems caused by their drinking got to your level, where your wife left - and actually left more than once- over it.

I am not suggesting that you should disregard any advice because of this; I am pointing it out to help you weigh things out. I recommend asking some men in your recovery groups their advice and guidance as well. 

I'll end with this: when I was in your wife's shoes, I wanted nothing more than to see my guy get well. I loved who he was, when he was a sober man. I loved him as a sober man in recovery even more than I had when I first met him, before his addiction took over. I went to many, many meetings with him. He went full steam ahead into recovery- he worked the steps, followed directions, did whatever it took. He would go 3 months, 6 months, 9 month, 11 months....and then relapse. He did this several times, I gave him many, many chances. He would relapse, I would separate and yes, date other people (we were not married), and then he'd get a month or two sober and I would relapse, basically. Everything great about him would shine when he was sober and working his program. He was the man I fell in love with, and then some! I was unable to stay away when he was sober. 

So I feel for her right now. If I had to do it all again, I wouldn't change what I did. I wouldn't get out earlier. But I wouldn't stay any longer, either. I know what it is like to see the light come back into someone who you love; to see them dedicated and working hard to get better, and to want so badly to be with THAT person- the healthy one, the honest one, the person who is stepping out of selfishness/self-centeredness and into "Self-centeredness", being helpful and of service. Deciding who you want to be, acting instead of being reactive. For me, I wanted to see that sober and sane and wonderful person who I knew was in there to come back out. I always believed that he would find his way out. 

Because of my experience, in my eyes, you are the "wayward spouse" in this situation. Your wife is very understandably wary and afraid and angry and combative. She was starting to trust you and she knows from past experience that you will probably let her down. She doesn't want to make promises but honestly, you are not trustworthy yet. You're getting there and rebuilding trust, but she she should absolutely and definitely go slow and see what happens, IMO. She's not giving you breadcrumbs in my eyes- she is warily watching what you're doing and hoping against hope that you are going to stay sober this time. 

However- I did hit a wall. It was a like a switch. One day I called, he sounded messed up, and I was DONE. I still loved him but I was not going to give him another day. I moved on and rebuilt my life. I had no idea that was going to happen that morning, it was very sudden for me. But that was it. So if you're still interested in the possibility of being with your wife, don't take the chance you have for granted.

I would stop seeing other people regardless of what she is or isn't doing because as a someone new to recovery, it is not healthy for you. You are not a betrayed spouse who is looking to build up self esteem, as this is the usual "cure" suggested at TAM. That path is dangerous to you right now. You are on a path of recovery, you've laid it out, and I would stay on it. Separate, go to meetings, focus on your health, try to maintain a good relationship with her. What does your sponsor think? What do the men in your group who have a good marital relationship think? Listen to them as well as getting advice on TAM (even from people who have been in your wife's shoes, LOL.)

With her or without her, I hope you beat your addiction and go on to have a great and full life. There is so much out there for you. I wish you the best.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

She calls and you cave. 

You'll be lingering in this awhile but make no mistake she's not giving up her other man.

You'll find that out later as well as they are more than friends.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

I've read enough threads on the forum to realize that in most situations like mine I'd be a Plan B.

I can say only this: I am in the IT industry and have had access to all electronic forms of her communications. There was an OM that she struck up a pre-EA with a few weeks after our separation, but she has had almost no contact with him for the past few weeks, except for one text where he asked if she could talk and she said no.

I don't know what else to say guys. My alcoholism and absence of any emotional connection was too much for her over time, I'm virtually positive this is a WAW situation.


----------



## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

180Man, I do believe that this is one case where you are handling the situation well. You seem to understand what the situation is and have got yourself to a position where leaving is not that bad for you and you can see light at the end of the tunnel.

The fact that you still care for your wife is admirable and to be expected. What you need to understand is that while you have been fixing yourself very quickly and efficiently, I do not think that she has been doing the same for herself. To say she is confused in her mind as to what she wants is an understatement. She has been flip-flopping from one position to another. She needs to stabilise herself before you can make any real decisions - right now she is too damn unstable.

I don't know if that retreat helped her or not (or confused her even more) but she is far from healed. She needs to first determine what works for her and then see it through so that when she comes out the other end, she understands that you are in a position to move on, she understands that you would prefer to stay with her but only on the right terms, and she understands that she truly wants to be with you and not just for selfish reasons but because she loves you and thinks she could make you happy too.

Tall order I know - but you seem to be working your way through this. However, stay prepared for some more surprises from her.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

@RoseAglow

Thanks, I appreciate your feedback. I've been getting some mixed feedback around dating, so here is where I am at. My sponsor told me the following: if I replace alcohol with sex before I do the painful work I need to do in my first year, I'll just be replacing one form of distraction with another, and it will interfere with my recovery goals. He didn't tell me I shouldn't go on friendship dates, but did hint I was playing with fire, especially since he knows I am aiming for R. 

It was my IC that suggested that I should go on friendship dates to help my detachment, although he too warned me that any physical or committed relationship I entered in to now would be a rebound and might not be in my best interest. 

I agree with you though it is probably not the best idea to flirt with temptation. The truth is I veer towards the friendship dates when I am feeling lonely, and this is EXACTLY what I need to work on without distractions or crutches...

Thanks for sharing your experience - it certainly has many parallels with my own and helps me with my perspective. 

The other group I have been looking to for relationship advice online is Al-Anon, and the wisdom I've received over there has really informed my decisions (although tbh I did not ask them about the friendship dating thing...)
@manfromlamancha Thanks for your feedback as well, your opinion is shared by many of my IRL friends (and my mother too).

Thanks as always all,

M180


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Your W sounds like the type of smart woman who dances as fast as she can for years and years and then finds herself breaking down, not knowing how to proceed, who to love, who to like, just really how to lead the rest of her life. When you spend so much time 'doing' you so easily lose sight of any theme in your life.

She works long weeks, has raised children, and stood by an emotionally-absent, alcoholic husband for decades. These were the roles that took up her time and defined her. But these roles, taken together, can be so soul-crushing and lead to deep questioning of the self after so many years.

It sounds to me like she is in crisis. And you, 180Man, are in crisis as well. A few months of sobriety and abstinence from porn, etc., doesn't a recovery make. I can tell that you know this. For me this means that you really shouldn't be making any huge decisions right now. Neither should she. You are both broken, healing, trying to understand yourselves. You both were on a dysfunctional autopilot for a long time. Turning your behaviors into healthy ones is a process that takes time. It isn't fun, but you have to accept that and keep working at it. Both of you, each on your own repair of self.

What I'm saying is that she has been steering the separation ship, but she really doesn't have the clarity or strength to be doing this responsibly all on her own. I think you two should just (both of you) dig in to try to heal yourselves and not worry about reconciliation or divorce. Be kind to yourself and to her. Don't make deadlines.

You don't know her if she isn't 'dancing as fast as she can,' and she doesn't know you as a sober, healthy man. You might love one another in your new guises....or you might not. You need time, in my opinion.

Sometimes in life the choices for how you live in the short term are all bad. It seems to me that you should choose the least bad choice right now, which is for both of you to heal and let time show you how you feel.


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

An update:

I am still living at home (we've both been ok with this) but should be moving out by the end of the month. This is something we agree we both need, the space to heal and learn to live with ourselves as individuals before considering R.

We're pretty much inseparable, spending all of our free time together. We went to Mexico as a family a couple of weeks ago, and although we slept in separate beds we had a couple of beach walks holdings hands and some musings about a possible future reconciliation.

This morning, for whatever reason (the last couple of days I've felt her really opening up to me), she looked up at me and said "What is going on with us?" I asked what she meant, and she replied: "Us. Where are we headed together?"

My reply was:

"Right now my primary concern is my recovery. For the next six months my focus is becoming an integrated man, and the most emotionally stable, sober version of myself I can achieve. When it comes to you and I, I am straddling a seesaw. If I move one way, I could easily fall back in love with you. If I move the other, I would spend time detaching, grieving, and moving on with my life. If I had to choose, my interest is in you, but I won't be in a position to know exactly where I'm going to land on the seesaw until a few more months in to my recovery."

Her near exact reply was: "Impressive reply, that's pretty much exactly how I feel too."

I then started rambling a bit when I think I should have done more listening. She then finished up by saying to me: "It just feels strange, we are supposed to be separated and I feel our boundaries are too blurred." I didn't know what to say here.

So... questions I have: was my reply strategically correct? It was certainly an authentic response, I just felt like I had a big opportunity there and didn't know exactly what to say. I also didn't know how to reply to her boundaries comment.

And secondly, I am assuming I should stay the course: focus on my own recovery while pursuing our emotionally close but platonic relationship. I shouldn't try to force what appears to be her seriously considering R.

The OM is virtually out of the picture--it is over a month since they texted and over 2 months since they had a phone conversation.

Thanks as always all,

M180


----------



## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

where did you guys rest of those boundaries of seeing other people during your separation? if the goal is to see if you can R then i hope it means clarly and simply there is no others.


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

180Man said:


> An update:
> 
> I am still living at home (we've both been ok with this) but should be moving out by the end of the month. This is something we agree we both need, the space to heal and learn to live with ourselves as individuals before considering R.
> 
> ...


It's working.

How does it feel?


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

I'm allowing myself to feel hopeful, but not too hopeful. Although I'd like to, I know if I initiate romance, I'll just scare her off again, just like Bananapeel warned on the first page and the mistake I made at Christmas.

As many on this forum have said, being in my particular relationship limbo is a special kind of hell, but I was (and am for the next few months) willing to accept it as part of the price of my alcoholism that has come due. What kind of person would I be if I just left this mess behind, as I could easily have done, without making an effort?

The general advice on this forum regarding WAW was pretty much bang on, only my own circumstances had to be adapted to demonstrate a growing capacity for emotional intimacy, a non-negotiable for her if we are to have hope for R.

I am far from out of the woods on this, but the strategy of detached friendship and consistent personal recovery and sober support for her seem to be doing the trick. I just don't know what I should be saying when she opens the door to discuss our relationship.

For example, tonight she asked me: "Do you really think you can remain sober for the rest of your life?" (translation: I am beginning to trust you again, am I a fool for doing so?) I responded that I couldn't make any promises for my future self, but that I intend to turn 6 months in to 6 years, and then beyond, one day at a time. I just always think I should be saying something more effective in these opportunities when she brings up the relationship talk, something I have accepted I can never initiate.

Cheers, and thanks as always,

M180


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

180Man said:


> The general advice on this forum regarding WAW was pretty much bang on, only my own circumstances had to be adapted to demonstrate a growing capacity for emotional intimacy, a non-negotiable for her if we are to have hope for R.


I agree.



180Man said:


> I am far from out of the woods on this, but the strategy of detached friendship and consistent personal recovery and sober support for her seem to be doing the trick. I just don't know what I should be saying when she opens the door to discuss our relationship.
> 
> For example, tonight she asked me: "Do you really think you can remain sober for the rest of your life?" (translation: I am beginning to trust you again, am I a fool for doing so?) I responded that I couldn't make any promises for my future self, but that I intend to turn 6 months in to 6 years, and then beyond, one day at a time. I just always think I should be saying something more effective in these opportunities when she brings up the relationship talk, something I have accepted I can never initiate.


M180,

If you are going to be honest with her, i.e. allow her to develop trust for you again, then can you really and truly say anything different, and mean it? Or say anything more effective?

You are doing what you need to do and what's best. Hang in there. One day at a time. There is light at the end of the tunnel and there will be an end 
to the limbo eventually.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

180Man said:


> I'm allowing myself to feel hopeful, but not too hopeful. Although I'd like to, I know if I initiate romance, I'll just scare her off again, just like Bananapeel warned on the first page and the mistake I made at Christmas.
> 
> As many on this forum have said, being in my particular relationship limbo is a special kind of hell, but I was (and am for the next few months) willing to accept it as part of the price of my alcoholism that has come due. What kind of person would I be if I just left this mess behind, as I could easily have done, without making an effort?
> 
> ...


Your answers have been on point, to include the one in the quoted post above.

The only thing you might follow it up with is something like:

"I have too much respect for you to tell you that no matter what the situation, no matter what twists and turns life takes, that I will never touch alcohol again. I have to take that one decision at a time. Just know that I don't ever want to touch it again."

Understand that she may not like the honest answers, but she will damn sure respect them. In turn, that will build respect for you, which leads to trust.

Keep it up.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

180Man said:


> An update:
> 
> I am still living at home (we've both been ok with this) but should be moving out by the end of the month. This is something we agree we both need, the space to heal and learn to live with ourselves as individuals before considering R.
> 
> ...



You are only early in your recovery. I assume you are working a programme as you have a sponser. I hope your W is also working a programme such as AlAnon or getting support from SoberRecovery or Bottledup. She needs it after years of your drinking. Alcoholism is a family disease. It is likely she is co-dependent and does not know where the boundaries should be. It is too early in your recovery to be considering working on the marriage, there is no guarantee you will stay sober or wont have hiccups along the way. Better to keep things on an even keel, no major life changing decisions for now until at least 12 months.
Many marriages fall apart when the AS gets in recovery, the burden is off the alanon and then things often fall apart for them personally.
I am in the same position, my H is a recovering A currently doing the programme at AA. Our marriage is stable because we choose not to get into quarrels about things, we know his sobriety is no one priority right now. It often leaves me feeling like a spare wheel, but the decision to stay or leave is mine to make at the right time. Follow the mantra, 'one day at a time.'


----------



## 180Man (Dec 1, 2017)

aine said:


> You are only early in your recovery. I assume you are working a programme as you have a sponser. I hope your W is also working a programme such as AlAnon or getting support from SoberRecovery or Bottledup. She needs it after years of your drinking. Alcoholism is a family disease. It is likely she is co-dependent and does not know where the boundaries should be. It is too early in your recovery to be considering working on the marriage, there is no guarantee you will stay sober or wont have hiccups along the way. Better to keep things on an even keel, no major life changing decisions for now until at least 12 months.
> Many marriages fall apart when the AS gets in recovery, the burden is off the alanon and then things often fall apart for them personally.
> I am in the same position, my H is a recovering A currently doing the programme at AA. Our marriage is stable because we choose not to get into quarrels about things, we know his sobriety is no one priority right now. It often leaves me feeling like a spare wheel, but the decision to stay or leave is mine to make at the right time. Follow the mantra, 'one day at a time.'


Hi Aine,

I thought I covered pretty much all of this in the thread, but I realize it is a few pages long now. I am in AA and working with a sponsor. I am at the 6 month mark. My W is sadly not working any programs. She is highly intelligent, and practices Vipassana meditation, which she thinks is all she needs. She considers herself 'unique' in that she is a psychology professor and that AlAnon would be too basic for her. I've managed to open her eyes up to the fact that 12 step programs are much less intellectual than they are emotional and spiritual, and she has come around a bit, but not so much to be willing to attend a meeting.

I know I can't take anything for granted but feel I have (so far) a firm grasp on my recovery. I have not had any cravings or been tempted with alcohol at all - once I made my decision to quit for life I have not turned back. I know 'one day at a time' and I keep this in mind, but unlike many in AA I have no problem with the concept of never drinking again. I know most in AA are not like that, but I have met a few others that are. I am so disgusted with alcohol and what it did to me I cannot fathom or consider ever going back to it. (Not saying that this was easy for me- I tried quitting several times without AA and that never worked. I have been wanting to quit for a long time, hit my big surrender moment, and accepted the huge changes that I needed to make). That being said I agree that I still need time to work the steps and focus on my recovery before I try to jump back in to the marriage. Although I am confident in my sobriety, I have a long way to go emotionally/spiritually!

Thanks for your note and sharing your experience!

M180


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

I read most of your thread but not all, as it was really long.

But to @180Man, 

I am really proud of you for your recovery. Actually, and I know that you can never claim victory or be complacent about you recovery, I think that you may be one that makes it in the end no matter what happens with your wife.

So I gather from your thread that your alcoholism caused your marriage to end, I could not figure out if your wife had an emotional affair before, during or after your rock bottom moment and the start of your recovery. And it may not matter. 

I also gather that your wife has some issues of her own but not addiction. 

I wanted to share what it is like for the other side of the street. Your wife's side about how it can feel. Not to beat you up at all but just to present that side to some extent. Of course there is no excuse for cheating of any kind by anyone ever, so lets just get that out there. 

My Ex W was a drug addict for at least 20 years of our 26 year marriage. Now hers was hidden, pain killers and augmenting pain killers with other meds to get really wasted. That maybe makes it worse but I am not sure. 

When I finally figured out what was going on, the she was actually a drug addict and that is actually what was going on in our marriage for all of those years, My brain just shut down for the most part. It actually took me 2 years to process it. I could go on about the affairs, the "sicknesses", the anger, the out bursts, and on and on. Why I stayed I will never be able to understand. 

I had ridiculous ideas about honor, not believing in divorce, and on and on. Basically I was a fool. 

Shortly after I figured it out she got sober. The audacity! I had already decided to divorce, I had decided a long time ago it was just that she was too wasted to care for herself at the time so I did not know what to do...

So, during that time I told her I am done and I am filing for divorce. She asked me for one more chance, I have no idea why I said yes, still don't. But I did say yes. 

During that time I went to al anon for drugs, whatever the name. All I saw there were a bunch of codependents that made excuses for the addict. I almost puked right there in the meeting. That was the last meeting for me. 

When I finally decided to end it for good, for two reasons: 

1) She never really loved me and by then I did not care. 

2) For whatever reason, stunted emotional IQ?, She could not in anyway understand why I was pissed off the she lied about and hide her addiction for 20 years. She did not have it in her to admit she had screwed me over for 20 years. 

And to this day, I still don't think she can. 

For you @180Man, you seem to actually have a grasp of what you did to your wife, your marriage and yourself. 

I for one commend you...


----------

