# What are the effects of dating DURING divorce on children?



## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

Hi everybody...
So I am 3 months into the divorce process and we have hit a snag. As I said in previous posts, my STBXW has a boyfriend whom she supposedly met the week after she moved out which was Thanksgiving of last year. Thats not the problem. The problem is that STBXW is involving this new guy into my Daughters life to what I think is a ridiculous degree. We have allready had a hearing back in Feb to set temporary child support and custody. The result of that hearing is that I am required to pay child support and I have my Daughter every Wed and 2 weekends a month. What I failed to realize at the time, was I should've requested limits on whom is allowed to transport and watch my Daughter. My Daughter is 9 and has told me the new guy has driven her to and from school, to and from practices, and they have had "sleepovers" there several times. I guess I didnt really think STBXW would involve him to this degree. I believe introducing this new man (or the next one)into my Daughters life this early and this degree is going to be harmful to her in the long run. I am confident this guy is temporary based off STBXWs relationship history which includes, multiple divorces, lived with 2 other boyfriends, many other "relationships", had a child out of wedlock with a drug addict (my adopted daughter), and also she has moved to different houses 8 different times. All of this has happened over the last 15 years. I am her longest relationship which was 2 years of dating plus 4 years of "marriage". So needless to say I am worried about my Daughter. My STBXW and her attorney see no problem with any of her behavior and refuse to make any change. I'm hoping the Judge will see things my way. I have filed a motion to restrict transportation and who can watch/keep her to STBXWs Family and also for me to have FROR. 
My question is, does anyone know of a specific study or article on the affects of introducing a child to a new boyfriend/girlfriend while seperated or while divorcing? I have found alot on the subject of the effects of dating AFTER divorce, but not so much DURING divorce. I want to be as prepared as possible when we go to court next week so any suggestions are appreciated...Thanks


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## Sandie (Mar 31, 2015)

There's nothing you can do about it!

She can see whoever she wants and involve that person as long as there is no danger to your child!


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

From your daughter's perspective, you're already divorced. 9 year olds have no clue about divorce paperwork, etc. She's introducing too soon, absolutely, but probably nothing you can do since she doesn't seem to have much parenting sense . Just be the more stable parent for your daughter.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

Sandie said:


> There's nothing you can do about it!
> 
> She can see whoever she wants and involve that person as long as there is no danger to your child!


Thanks, but I'm looking for an opinion and or information from someone that actually knows what they are talking about...


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

SecondTime'Round said:


> From your daughter's perspective, you're already divorced. 9 year olds have no clue about divorce paperwork, etc. She's introducing too soon, absolutely, but probably nothing you can do since she doesn't seem to have much parenting sense . Just be the more stable parent for your daughter.


Thank you


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

You can hope all you want, but that won't make it happen. If your STBX has been the primary parent most of the time, her extra-curriculars will have little impact on a custody hearing. Dragging the wife back in to complain about her involving a new man in the DD's life will look petty and controlling--because, even though you KNEW this woman's history, you didn't take any precautions to prevent your wife from doing what you had good reason to suspect she would do. You agreed she had the good judgment to parent 75+ percent of the time. Nothing has changed except you don't like what she is doing with that time. 

Having said that, I agree she is introducing too early and demonstrating to your daughter that relationships are so important one must always be in one--no matter how unstable that makes life otherwise. So, you can set the example about stability, and you can talk to your daughter about relationships--but do so without making it a thinly-veiled attack on her mom. Over time, your steadiness and these discussions will give your daughter another path to choose for herself. 

This seems to have worked really well in helping my kids navigate life when their dad and I have made very different choices--and I'm proud of the choices they've made. 

Good luck.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

sisters359 said:


> You can hope all you want, but that won't make it happen. If your STBX has been the primary parent most of the time, her extra-curriculars will have little impact on a custody hearing. Dragging the wife back in to complain about her involving a new man in the DD's life will look petty and controlling--because, even though you KNEW this woman's history, you didn't take any precautions to prevent your wife from doing what you had good reason to suspect she would do. You agreed she had the good judgment to parent 75+ percent of the time. Nothing has changed except you don't like what she is doing with that time.
> 
> Having said that, I agree she is introducing too early and demonstrating to your daughter that relationships are so important one must always be in one--no matter how unstable that makes life otherwise. So, you can set the example about stability, and you can talk to your daughter about relationships--but do so without making it a thinly-veiled attack on her mom. Over time, your steadiness and these discussions will give your daughter another path to choose for herself.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your opinion. I don't agree with some of it, but parts I definitely do agree. I screwed up in not requesting FROR in the temporary agreement from the beginning, but I will do my best to have it added into our permanent agreement. As her Father, I'm not going to just sit by and let different men do the things I am willing and able to do. If my STBXW isn't able to be with our Daughter, then I will keep her. Now if someday she finds another man dumb enough to marry her, then there isn't anything I can do because he will be her Family, but until then the current boyfriend and all the future ones are just temporary.


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## daddymikey1975 (Apr 18, 2009)

I still agree that there is nothing you can do about it. You only have her 25% (or less) of the time. Even if you had her 50/50 you still would have no say in what your ex does with her time unless it places the child in danger. 

I have some language in my parenting time agreement so that stopped my ex cold in her tracks from exposing my kids to her bed hopping, but I have them 50% of the time (or more) and made sure my wishes were included in our plan. 

My ex still makes different parenting choices than me, and I don't agree with most of them, but the reality is that my children aren't in any danger and they respect me and have lots of fun at my place because I'm stable, loving, and have a structured environment for them. These qualities out weigh my ex's poor decisions. 

Spend your time and energy on things of value and longevity. Since your divorce is still pending, focus on being proactive with your requests instead of reactive.


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Hmm... definitely sounds too early to me. I'm not a psychologist but I have been a through my parents divorce as a child and it's not fun. It can be really conflicting and I don't know that I ever would have felt "ready" to deal with my parents dating others. My mum didn't date until tears later but my dad tries to within the year and he made a point of bring a real **** about it (he's an alcoholic). 

Do you know how your daughter is going at the moment? How she is feeling about everything, or how she feels about her mum dating so soon? Purely for the sake of your daughter's well being, you may want her to get some child psychology sessions.if it comes up that she is feeling affected by the involvement of her mum's partner while still coming to terms with the divorce, it may be a starting point to speak with your ex about limiting her contact with this man in the meantime


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## hurtinginohio (Nov 18, 2014)

I'm going through the same thing, but he had to sign a no-paramour agreement, meaning his girlfriend cannot be there the weekends he has our daughter, at least until our divorce is final. It's a crappy thing when these parents don't care how their actions affect children who are already going through a difficult time.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

OP, you don't know if the new man is there to stay or not. You can guess from STBX prior behavior, but they could marry. You don't know, but I bet you are assumptions aren't too far off. Assuming they become permanent, its unlikely it will have any impact on your daughter at all. And you are then stuck dealing with a step-father.

Courts tend to tolerate no paramour clauses in agreements, but I would be shocked if a court would place one in an order. Family courts do not want to become bedroom police. So unless and until some therapist can say she's being harmed there is nothing at all for you to do about the boyfriend's presence.

A RFOR would be likely, especially if you have evidence that a non-family member is involved at times when you are available. The difficulty may be that a court has already determined that she if fit to have custody rights. Having a boyfriend during the separation does not place her parental right to custody into question.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find a study that will produce whatever conclusion you want. 

What do you need it for?

To convince yourself? Your ex-wife? 

If your daughters best interest is truly your motivation you don't need a study. You know your daughter and your situation better that anyone else. 

Can you get a judge to agree with you and restrict BF's access? 

Yes, I did - even after D was final. It was part of a protective order but only lasted 90 days. The PO was more about getting XW to leave me alone. My attorney took the liberty to add the morality clause. 

Be careful with the ROFR. You may end up restricting yourself more than your XW. I wanted one but didn't get it. My XW is trying to restrict my kids' time with my parents but lacks the legal authority to do so. 

Thank God for unanswered prayers.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

daddymikey1975 said:


> I still agree that there is nothing you can do about it. You only have her 25% (or less) of the time. Even if you had her 50/50 you still would have no say in what your ex does with her time unless it places the child in danger.
> 
> I have some language in my parenting time agreement so that stopped my ex cold in her tracks from exposing my kids to her bed hopping, but I have them 50% of the time (or more) and made sure my wishes were included in our plan.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your opinion.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

QuietSoul said:


> Hmm... definitely sounds too early to me. I'm not a psychologist but I have been a through my parents divorce as a child and it's not fun. It can be really conflicting and I don't know that I ever would have felt "ready" to deal with my parents dating others. My mum didn't date until tears later but my dad tries to within the year and he made a point of bring a real **** about it (he's an alcoholic).
> 
> Do you know how your daughter is going at the moment? How she is feeling about everything, or how she feels about her mum dating so soon? Purely for the sake of your daughter's well being, you may want her to get some child psychology sessions.if it comes up that she is feeling affected by the involvement of her mum's partner while still coming to terms with the divorce, it may be a starting point to speak with your ex about limiting her contact with this man in the meantime


Thanks for your input..

My Daughter says she is ok, but that has always been her standard answer. Her grades have been slipping since they moved out, but I think I know why that is. I was the one that checked her homework and helped her study for tests which I can't do much anymore. Her Mom never has put in much effort in that area. 

Yes I think I am going to request that she talk to a Psychologist or Counselor to see what they think. I'm most worried about the long term effects of Men and their children coming and going from her life. I don't want her to turn out like her Mom or her biological Father...


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

hurtinginohio said:


> I'm going through the same thing, but he had to sign a no-paramour agreement, meaning his girlfriend cannot be there the weekends he has our daughter, at least until our divorce is final. It's a crappy thing when these parents don't care how their actions affect children who are already going through a difficult time.


Yes it is...Thanks



Pluto2 said:


> OP, you don't know if the new man is there to stay or not. You can guess from STBX prior behavior, but they could marry. You don't know, but I bet you are assumptions aren't too far off. Assuming they become permanent, its unlikely it will have any impact on your daughter at all. And you are then stuck dealing with a step-father.
> 
> Courts tend to tolerate no paramour clauses in agreements, but I would be shocked if a court would place one in an order. Family courts do not want to become bedroom police. So unless and until some therapist can say she's being harmed there is nothing at all for you to do about the boyfriend's presence.
> 
> A RFOR would be likely, especially if you have evidence that a non-family member is involved at times when you are available. The difficulty may be that a court has already determined that she if fit to have custody rights. Having a boyfriend during the separation does not place her parental right to custody into question.


I'm not looking to change the custody schedule. I'm just looking to minimize my Daughters exposure to the different Men and maximize the time I get her when her Mom can't. Such as if STBXW were to work a extra weekend then I would like the chance to keep my Daughter instead of her spending the weekend with whomever the current boyfriend is. I also don't want these different Men coming to my house to pick up my Daughter. I don't know them and I don't want to have to deal with them. There is no reason STBXW can't pick up my D other than laziness. Not sure what a "no paramour" clause is but I will look it up.

Thanks for your opinion



Ceegee said:


> I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find a study that will produce whatever conclusion you want.
> 
> What do you need it for?
> 
> ...



That's why I was hoping to find a study on the effects so I have documentation to show the FOC liason and or the Judge. I have found that is a much more effective way to convince someone instead of just stating my opinion...

Thanks


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## Malpheous (May 3, 2013)

You aren't likely to get much traction. Outside of a few Bible Belt states a Morality Clause, essentially what you're on about, isn't inclusive anymore. The ones that are added to papers are typically unenforceable outside of situations where there is a clear detriment in which case Protect Orders are more likely used. 

An ROFR is a good thing to have, however most are poorly written and hard to chase a contempt charge on.

If I were you I'd put my focus on being the best Dad I can. Figure out how I got less than 50/50 Parenting Time. Then work to fix that. My guess would be she asked you to leave the home. You fell on your sword as the man. Left. She established control of access. Then she ran with it to set status quo. So what have you done/are you doing to remain and active part of your little girl's life? Active at the school? Live nearby? Asking for extra time even if it gets a "no"? Using a document-able form of communication of course.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Thanks, but I'm looking for an opinion and or information from someone that actually knows what they are talking about...


Since I went through a 5 year long divorce and textbook custody battle, I would consider my opinion somewhat valid and the poster that responded to your original question was correct. You're wasting your time.

I started dating about 6 weeks post separation to the man I'm now married to and my ex tried every tactic in the book to prevent my daughter from having a relationship with her now step-father...none it even got close to working. More than 2 judges wouldn't even allow it to be heard in court.

If you have data showing that this guy is dangerous around children...for instance, he's got a criminal record for child abuse or pedophilia, you definitely may have an argument but barring that, you're wasting your time. Your stbx has the right to decide who's around her child...just like she did when you were still married. Nothing has changed, she's still this child's parent and will continue to make judgment calls as she sees fit. Your opinion isn't relevant on her parenting time.

And in my case, my ex has 50% parenting time...which I agreed to since I thought it was important to my daughter. Your focus should be trying to get more parenting time...not stalking and micromanaging your ex's romantic life. You aren't going to have much sway considering that you're not even close to equal parenting status. 

Also consider that judges aren't dumb. Especially the ones who decide custody cases. They know the studies...there's nothing you're going to "educate" them on. Its simply a matter of what's relevant and what's not. Unless the guy is a serial pedophile, your concerns bear no weight.

Your focus is in the wrong place. You cannot and never will be able to manage your ex's social life. What you CAN do is fight for more parenting time so that your influence has more bearing on your child's upbringing. I find it illuminating that you're more concerned about delving into your ex's private life than you are about spending more time with your kid. 

These agreements that you're considering simply aren't enforceable and create very bad blood and more conflict for children. At some point, the divorce is going to be over and you two are going to have to co-parent.

My suggestion...stop bashing her, stop interfering with her personal life and instead find a way to reach reasonable compromises with her without the criticism and find a way to spend more time with your child. It sounds like its really important that this child has you in her life more.


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## tryingpatience (May 7, 2014)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Your focus is in the wrong place. You cannot and never will be able to manage your ex's social life. What you CAN do is fight for more parenting time so that your influence has more bearing on your child's upbringing. I find it illuminating that you're more concerned about delving into your ex's private life than you are about spending more time with your kid.


Yes, go with this definitely. Fight for more time with your kid.


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## Lost40 (Dec 27, 2014)

I don't really know, but being I have a 13 year old and going through the divorce process - I can agree with what you're being told as being the "stable parent". That is what I'm doing.

My ex is dating and I think even planning a "move-in" soon, is my opinion I'm gathering from evidence. Son knows he is, but ignores it for the most part. I know ex doesn't tell him, or bring him around the people he's dating. I don't know why he isn't, I think he wants me to first. So I look like the bad guy, but what he doesn't realize is, son already knows. But thats a dumbsh.t for ya.

I'm 9-10 months out from separation and divorce still not final, final hearing is 2nd week in May if we don't settle first. I just very recently met a "Friend". My son doesn't know, I don't talk or text him in front of my son, and I don't see him unless son is with his Dad. The only thing my son might notice with me is, I'm happier. But, I was getting happier before I met this guy. It's just intensified some. We aren't what I would call "dating", more like hanging out - doing fun things, like going to park with the dogs and walking. We went to dinner once, and the racetrack once since we both like horse racing. 

Thankfully my son is a bit older (13) and he is going through the girl crazy stage already, and finding what he calls girlfriends left and right at school and in his friends neighborhood. LOL. He's a cutie, so he will have the girls... slightly worrisome. LOL. Anyway - I'm using this to my advantage when the time comes I bring up a new man. But - my personal preference is waiting for my divorce to be final. I took my vows seriously, and I won't break them.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

When you feel that your XW is setting a poor example for your D, show her, by comparison, what you believe to be right.

Give her the chance to learn right from wrong.

While I was able to get a morality clause that kept the BF away from my kids, most do not. I had extinuating circumstances.

Trying to control that which you cannot will drive you insane.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Since I went through a 5 year long divorce and textbook custody battle, I would consider my opinion somewhat valid and the poster that responded to your original question was correct. You're wasting your time.
> 
> I started dating about 6 weeks post separation to the man I'm now married to and my ex tried every tactic in the book to prevent my daughter from having a relationship with her now step-father...none it even got close to working. More than 2 judges wouldn't even allow it to be heard in court.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your opinion, but I don't agree with 99% of it. You admit your adultery, but then try to dignify it by stating you married the man you were "dating". Separated = Still Married. If you think that is ok ,then your whole point of view is most likely coming from a position I'm not going to agree with. I shouldn't care about multiple strange men coming and going from my Daughter's life just because I didn't get 50% custody? Really??? First Right of Refusal and limiting who is allowed to pick up my Daughter are very much enforceable. I know multiple people that have had these very things put in their divorce decree. I'm betting that the real reason you wanted a 50/50 split in custody with your ex was so you could have more time to "date"... either that, or it wasn't your idea. Anybody that fights a 5 year "custody battle" (your words not mine) isn't looking to give the opponent in that "battle" anymore than they have too. The one thing you are right about is that I need to spend as much time as possible with my Daughter and intend to do so.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

Malpheous said:


> You aren't likely to get much traction. Outside of a few Bible Belt states a Morality Clause, essentially what you're on about, isn't inclusive anymore. The ones that are added to papers are typically unenforceable outside of situations where there is a clear detriment in which case Protect Orders are more likely used.
> 
> An ROFR is a good thing to have, however most are poorly written and hard to chase a contempt charge on.
> 
> If I were you I'd put my focus on being the best Dad I can. Figure out how I got less than 50/50 Parenting Time. Then work to fix that. My guess would be she asked you to leave the home. You fell on your sword as the man. Left. She established control of access. Then she ran with it to set status quo. So what have you done/are you doing to remain and active part of your little girl's life? Active at the school? Live nearby? Asking for extra time even if it gets a "no"? Using a document-able form of communication of course.


After many years of failed attempts to "make it work" I asked her to leave and she took our Daughter with her. I have done everything I can to be as involved in my Daughters life as much as possible. It's a uphill battle when I am not the biological Parent. Its a long story, but if you care to know it, it's all in my previous posts. Thanks for your input though.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

Lost40 said:


> I don't really know, but being I have a 13 year old and going through the divorce process - I can agree with what you're being told as being the "stable parent". That is what I'm doing.
> 
> My ex is dating and I think even planning a "move-in" soon, is my opinion I'm gathering from evidence. Son knows he is, but ignores it for the most part. I know ex doesn't tell him, or bring him around the people he's dating. I don't know why he isn't, I think he wants me to first. So I look like the bad guy, but what he doesn't realize is, son already knows. But thats a dumbsh.t for ya.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Its good to know there is light at the end of the tunnel...


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

Ceegee said:


> When you feel that your XW is setting a poor example for your D, show her, by comparison, what you believe to be right.
> 
> Give her the chance to learn right from wrong.
> 
> ...


Thank you


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

To each it's own, and everyone can do whatever they want, i don't agree on dating while separated, you are still married, even if there's no R in the future. Enigma, your situation might be unique as you DID marry the man you were dating while separated, but a lot of people don't, they go from partner to partner and i believe exposing a child to that creates even more confussion.

it seems legally you can't do much Needing affection so what other s have suggested try to spend as much time with your D so you can minimize the effect of your STBWX boyfriends on her.


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

I have worked in law and have worked for family law specialists. I'm not a lawyer, rather a legal secretary, plus I am in a different country. But what they do here in Aus is in cases where impact to a child is concerned (whether during the normal course of divorce or whether something more sinister like alleged abuse etc), an independent psychologist may interview/assess the child and make a "expert witness" report to the court with their recommendation. 

In your case, and primarily at this stage for the interests of your child's welfare, you may want to get her some sessions with a child psychologist (non-court appointed). The fact that "fine" is her standard answer and her grades are slipping, may indicate she is closed off and trying to protect herself. This I'd pure speculation, it could be some other reason, or maybe she really is fine etc. But a psychologist is trained to create that safety for her yo open up and talk to an uninvolved safe adult about what's troubling her (if anything). If something does come up in the course of sessions, then that could be used as substantiative evidence if things get legal re the other guy's involvement, but a better next step (in the event something foes come up with the psychologist around this) is maybe for some kind of mediation with you and your ex to discuss your daughter's exporure to new partners so early on and what that should and should not look like, in the interests of your daughter's wellbeing. If your ex is irrational and won't budge then maybe you could go legal from there.

Again, this is based on my understanding of my own country's legal system which is a bit different to the US.

But all this aside, and whether or not it becomes apparent this is an issue for your daughter (and I would be surprised if it wasn't), it would still benefit her to see a psychologist


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I'm LOLing at you calling Enigmagirl an adulterer for dating during separation. We all took vows "til death do us part," and most everyone here broke those. Getting all legalistic on her because you don't like when she started dating makes you look petty and arrogant. Are you seeing a therapist? The way you dismiss advice you don't like tells me you're likely very difficult to communicate with. Learning to be a better listener will only benefit your relationship with your daughter.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I understand your frustration, but lashing out at other posters who are trying to help because they're dating while separated and this doesn't jive with your personal beliefs is not going to get you anywhere. If you are concerned about the influence men she dates will have on your daughter, remain vigilant to any warning signs in your daughter. But if you and your ex are raising her together, at some point both of you are going to have social lives. You can try and reason with your ex about exposing your daughter to a significant other so soon. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what we think about her doing this, it matters what she thinks. If you can give a reasoned argument why she should expose your daughter to men she dates less, that will resonate with her more than you going on the offensive. My experience has been that when I am combative with my STBX it does not go well. Try and hold your temper and explain in a logical, well thought out manner why you BOTH should refrain from exposing her to the people you date now and in the future. That way you're not pointing the finger at her, you're saying you'll stick to a pattern of behavior you're asking her to adopt. Does that make sense?


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

From a guy who went through almost EXACTLY what you are going through now in divorce......

Shut your mouth. Work on you. Be an awesome dad to your child (that means not exposing their mom's stupidity directly). Live as an example of the value system that you would like your daughter to adapt. Over time, truth is always exposed. Your daughter will slowly gravitate to you for answers to life's questions and for a close friendship. Why? Because you are solid.....consistent. 

Going through the courts to gain control as a non custodial parent produces more stress on the children than you can ever imagine. Live right, and the rest will fall into place. This is not about the "right now".......it's about 10 and 20 years from now. What relationship do you want to have with your daughter then? Who do you want her to gravitate towards for mentorship?

My kids come to me for the important things in life..... and I only get 3 of them 2 days a week and every other weekend.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

Regretf said:


> To each it's own, and everyone can do whatever they want, i don't agree on dating while separated, you are still married, even if there's no R in the future. Enigma, your situation might be unique as you DID marry the man you were dating while separated, but a lot of people don't, they go from partner to partner and i believe exposing a child to that creates even more confussion.
> 
> it seems legally you can't do much Needing affection so what other s have suggested try to spend as much time with your D so you can minimize the effect of your STBWX boyfriends on her.





QuietSoul said:


> I have worked in law and have worked for family law specialists. I'm not a lawyer, rather a legal secretary, plus I am in a different country. But what they do here in Aus is in cases where impact to a child is concerned (whether during the normal course of divorce or whether something more sinister like alleged abuse etc), an independent psychologist may interview/assess the child and make a "expert witness" report to the court with their recommendation.
> 
> In your case, and primarily at this stage for the interests of your child's welfare, you may want to get her some sessions with a child psychologist (non-court appointed). The fact that "fine" is her standard answer and her grades are slipping, may indicate she is closed off and trying to protect herself. This I'd pure speculation, it could be some other reason, or maybe she really is fine etc. But a psychologist is trained to create that safety for her yo open up and talk to an uninvolved safe adult about what's troubling her (if anything). If something does come up in the course of sessions, then that could be used as substantiative evidence if things get legal re the other guy's involvement, but a better next step (in the event something foes come up with the psychologist around this) is maybe for some kind of mediation with you and your ex to discuss your daughter's exporure to new partners so early on and what that should and should not look like, in the interests of your daughter's wellbeing. If your ex is irrational and won't budge then maybe you could go legal from there.
> 
> ...


Thank you both for your input...


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Thanks for your opinion, but I don't agree with 99% of it. You admit your adultery, but then try to dignify it by stating you married the man you were "dating". Separated = Still Married. If you think that is ok ,then your whole point of view is most likely coming from a position I'm not going to agree with. I shouldn't care about multiple strange men coming and going from my Daughter's life just because I didn't get 50% custody? Really??? First Right of Refusal and limiting who is allowed to pick up my Daughter are very much enforceable. I know multiple people that have had these very things put in their divorce decree. I'm betting that the real reason you wanted a 50/50 split in custody with your ex was so you could have more time to "date"... either that, or it wasn't your idea. Anybody that fights a 5 year "custody battle" (your words not mine) isn't looking to give the opponent in that "battle" anymore than they have too. The one thing you are right about is that I need to spend as much time as possible with my Daughter and intend to do so.


Your judgment isn't relevant, I was legally separated and had zero intention of wasting one more moment of my life. Since I had the advice of a lawyer, I can assure you that my behavior didn't classify as adultery. Your moral opinion is irrelevant.

My custody battle wasn't initiated by me, it was initiated by my ex...I offered him equal custody because it was what my daughter wanted...he fought for full custody. At zero point did I try to remove my daughter from my ex's life. I simply wanted a divorce...not for him to lose his fair parenting rights. I love my children and I want them to have both parents in their life. He tried every method in the book to make me lose custody because I had the audacity to leave him. He was trying to punish me but it didn't even get close to working. In fact, my lawyer had a really fun time ripping him apart. And I wasn't dating...I didn't need to...I met the person I'm still with 6 years later about 5 weeks after I achieved legal separation (which took 7.5 months to get).

My ex got ample visitation...which was my choice and what my daughter wanted but I have full legal custody...I have primary parenting status...and he had to pay 2/3rds of my legal costs due to him not responding to court requirements in an attempt to drag out the divorce so that I couldn't remarry. You can go down that road but my ex spent about 75k in legal fees to get nothing for it. Judges don't like angry ex spouses...they don't like litigants who bash the other child's parent and meddle and stalk them in their private lives. They want to know why you're the best parent...and it sounds like you already lost that battle. The chances of you amending the existing custody arrangement is extremely slim given what you've presented as your argument. 

You can certainly get right of right refusal clauses in your divorce decree, however, they don't apply to her right to date. Her personal life is absolutely none of your business unless you can prove abuse. And judges don't like the clauses very much because they're nearly impossible to enforce. You'll find that's true of many things written in separation agreements. And since you're requesting a change to your existing document, you have to show relevant cause for the modification and you don't have any. 

Your attitude is clearly hostile which is often what happens when some men lose control over their ex. The fact of the matter is she can have her own life and do whatever she wants. Your circle of control extends to what you do on your parenting time which is minimal. 

Of course, chances are, given your mentality, you'll probably continue to be hostile and angry and will attempt to go to court to try to control her life. In the end, it won't go anywhere, you'll rack up a huge bill and you'll just get more bitter. I guarantee however, that your ex will simply feel validated in her decision to leave the marriage based on your behavior and she'll continue with her life as she sees fit.

Again, why don't you simply get over the fact that she's happily moved on and attempt to request more parenting time so that you can be an equal parent. If you're going to get that time, however, let go of the anger...its very evident and its really bad for your kid. Your ex-wife has the right to be with whomever she wants. She's clearly got the large majority of parenting time so she's competent to make judgment calls on who's fit to be around her child. She might even make the deal with you out of court if you stop the hostility.

However, its your choice...lol...good luck!


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> To each it's own, and everyone can do whatever they want, i don't agree on dating while separated, you are still married, even if there's no R in the future. Enigma, your situation might be unique as you DID marry the man you were dating while separated, but a lot of people don't, they go from partner to partner and i believe exposing a child to that creates even more confussion.


Situations are unique.

This isn't about opinion...its simply about what is legally relevant. The issue is that her dating life and how she sees fit to introduce new partners into her daughter's life doesn't meet the burden to change a custody arrangement.

She is allowed to decide that on her own...it really doesn't matter if he doesn't like it. 

I don't like a lot of the ways my ex parents, however on his parenting time, he gets to make those decisions.

If the child is in danger or you have a very, very strong case to prove that she's suffering anxiety or stress, you can certainly report that you child protective services and using that data, make the case for a change in custody/visitation time. However, this kid could have slipping grades because her stepfather is so angry and its affecting her....who knows?

I'm not interested in what anyone thinks of how I manage my personal life. My reason for posting was simply to let this guy know that he should work on getting more parenting time and stop trying to control his ex's life. It simply doesn't work and in the end, he'll rack up a bill, traumatize the kid more and alienate the person he's trying to co-parent with.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

northernlights said:


> I'm LOLing at you calling Enigmagirl an adulterer for dating during separation. We all took vows "til death do us part," and most everyone here broke those. Getting all legalistic on her because you don't like when she started dating makes you look petty and arrogant. Are you seeing a therapist? The way you dismiss advice you don't like tells me you're likely very difficult to communicate with. Learning to be a better listener will only benefit your relationship with your daughter.


Maybe you think adultery is something to LOL at, but I don't. I consider "dating" other people while seperated as adultery. I also don't believe what I said was "legalistic, petty, or arrogant". Her post to me had a bit of a angry tone to it and that's what she got in return. I guess I could've been a little less harsh...

Yes unfortunately "till death do us part" is a vow I won't be able to keep, but I'm not the one that quit trying. She quit long ago. Atleast I can say I put in as much effort as I could. I do see a counselor. The same Psychologist that my STBXW and I went to. STBXW quit after 2 months because she "did'nt like it". I'm still going and I'm sure most people on here are too.

I don't totally dismiss advice, I just don't take well to people doing it in a disrespectful way. I actually am reconsidering my actions because of some of the input I have received here...


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## Malpheous (May 3, 2013)

needing_affection said:


> Maybe you think adultery is something to LOL at, but I don't. I consider "dating" other people while seperated as adultery. I also don't believe what I said was "legalistic, petty, or arrogant". Her post to me had a bit of a angry tone to it and that's what she got in return. I guess I could've been a little less harsh...
> 
> Yes unfortunately "till death do us part" is a vow I won't be able to keep, but I'm not the one that quit trying. She quit long ago. Atleast I can say I put in as much effort as I could. I do see a counselor. The same Psychologist that my STBXW and I went to. STBXW quit after 2 months because she "did'nt like it". I'm still going and I'm sure most people on here are too.
> 
> I don't totally dismiss advice, I just don't take well to people doing it in a disrespectful way. I actually am reconsidering my actions because of some of the input I have received here...


In most states a legal separation agreement has language included in it, or in state statutes that the parties no longer have hold of the personal actions of the other and that establish and recognize the period of separation as a legal tool to further resolve or decide the outcome of the marital contract. The language used in most states and situations makes it legal to date and engage in whatever, otherwise legal, activity one desires as though they were legally single. So your consideration of dating while separated as adultery is purely an opinion and moral judgement and not a statement of legality.

You say your ex left with your child. So you filed an emergency order at court for return of the minor to the marital home coupled with an emergency temp order of sole custody based on the mother's proven risk of flight with the child and lost that? Rhetorical. 

My point is that you are bent on things you can't control. Focus on the things you can and make whatever progress that affords you going forward.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

joannacroc said:


> I understand your frustration, but lashing out at other posters who are trying to help because they're dating while separated and this doesn't jive with your personal beliefs is not going to get you anywhere. If you are concerned about the influence men she dates will have on your daughter, remain vigilant to any warning signs in your daughter. But if you and your ex are raising her together, at some point both of you are going to have social lives. You can try and reason with your ex about exposing your daughter to a significant other so soon. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what we think about her doing this, it matters what she thinks. If you can give a reasoned argument why she should expose your daughter to men she dates less, that will resonate with her more than you going on the offensive. My experience has been that when I am combative with my STBX it does not go well. Try and hold your temper and explain in a logical, well thought out manner why you BOTH should refrain from exposing her to the people you date now and in the future. That way you're not pointing the finger at her, you're saying you'll stick to a pattern of behavior you're asking her to adopt. Does that make sense?


Yes, that makes sense. I have tried reasoning with her on this subject, but she is beyond reasoning when it comes to this. And yes, it was in a non-combative way. She was even warned against doing exactly what she is doing by our Psychologist/Marriage counselor, but STBXW doesn't see anything wrong with it at all and won't listen to her either. Not sure what else I can do to convince her it's not good for our Daughter...


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Your judgment isn't relevant, I was legally separated and had zero intention of wasting one more moment of my life. Since I had the advice of a lawyer, I can assure you that my behavior didn't classify as adultery. Your moral opinion is irrelevant.
> 
> My custody battle wasn't initiated by me, it was initiated by my ex...I offered him equal custody because it was what my daughter wanted...he fought for full custody. At zero point did I try to remove my daughter from my ex's life. I simply wanted a divorce...not for him to lose his fair parenting rights. I love my children and I want them to have both parents in their life. He tried every method in the book to make me lose custody because I had the audacity to leave him. He was trying to punish me but it didn't even get close to working. In fact, my lawyer had a really fun time ripping him apart. And I wasn't dating...I didn't need to...I met the person I'm still with 6 years later about 5 weeks after I achieved legal separation (which took 7.5 months to get).
> 
> ...


I think we misunderstood each others point of view and got off to a bad start. I apologize...

I think what you did is quite a bit different than what my STBXW did. You dated after 8 months apart and had established legal seperation. One month after leaving, (and hadn't filed anything) my STBXW is taking my Daughter to sleepovers at the new guys house. He is also keeping her while STBXW works ,he is taking her to and from school and has attempted to pick her up from my house. My STBXW may very well marry this guy once both of there Divorces are final, and more power to him. I honestly don't care. I do care about how 2 things are affecting my D. I am concerned about her being exposed to a new Man in her Mom's life so quickly and such a high degree especially since I'm sure he's temporary. Also, STBXW has a very long track record of moving from man to man to man. I worry about how this will affect my D. I don't want her to think what her Mom does is acceptable. My D already has alot to deal with considering her Bio dad is a drug addict and now her Mom and her Dad,the man who loves her enough to adopt her, are getting divorced. I just don't see how adding these men into the mix to such a degree is going to be good for my D so I'm trying to figure out how to limit the effect it will have on her...


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

Dedicated2Her said:


> From a guy who went through almost EXACTLY what you are going through now in divorce......
> 
> Shut your mouth. Work on you. Be an awesome dad to your child (that means not exposing their mom's stupidity directly). Live as an example of the value system that you would like your daughter to adapt. Over time, truth is always exposed. Your daughter will slowly gravitate to you for answers to life's questions and for a close friendship. Why? Because you are solid.....consistent.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your opinion


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

OP, I wanted to share this with you because I believe how much you love your DD and want the best for her.

The Children's Bill of Rights in Divorce


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> I think we misunderstood each others point of view and got off to a bad start. I apologize...


Thank you and its no problem.



> I think what you did is quite a bit different than what my STBXW did. You dated after 8 months apart and had established legal seperation. One month after leaving, (and hadn't filed anything) my STBXW is taking my Daughter to sleepovers at the new guys house. He is also keeping her while STBXW works ,he is taking her to and from school and has attempted to pick her up from my house. My STBXW may very well marry this guy once both of there Divorces are final, and more power to him. I honestly don't care. I do care about how 2 things are affecting my D. I am concerned about her being exposed to a new Man in her Mom's life so quickly and such a high degree especially since I'm sure he's temporary. Also, STBXW has a very long track record of moving from man to man to man. I worry about how this will affect my D. I don't want her to think what her Mom does is acceptable. My D already has alot to deal with considering her Bio dad is a drug addict and now her Mom and her Dad,the man who loves her enough to adopt her, are getting divorced. I just don't see how adding these men into the mix to such a degree is going to be good for my D so I'm trying to figure out how to limit the effect it will have on her...


I'm not trying to suggest that what you're worried about might not be valid. There's no doubt that there is research about kids (particularly girls) being around the boyfriends of divorced women and being abused.

The problem is that the courts don't work on research studies...they work on evidence.

And if your ex has primary custody, its also going to be difficult to get permission to bring your child to a therapist.

Firstly, what is the status of your custody arrangement? Is it finalized?

Second, what is her state of mind? Would she be open to providing you with more parenting time if you don't change the amount you pay in CS?

Third, do you have any data on the guy that she's allowing to pick the kid up? Can you search to find out if he has any type of criminal record? Has your daughter complained of anything going on during the visits?

Ultimately, the ideal condition is to fight for more parenting time if the arrangement isn't finalized. Barring that, (and I hate to say it this way) but maybe you can "bribe" her into giving you more parenting time by making things easier for her...ie, not changing the CS amount and doing all pickups/driving. 

Once you establish a status quo of parenting time (that you document) you can then push to get the custody arrangement changed to reflect the reality of how much time you're spending with the child.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Thank you and its no problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hopefully, like any parent, you don't need "permission" to attend to your child's emotional needs. 

Hopefully you have the independent right to take your child to the doctor, therapist, etc. 

If you do, do it. Like yesterday.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

Malpheous said:


> In most states a legal separation agreement has language included in it, or in state statutes that the parties no longer have hold of the personal actions of the other and that establish and recognize the period of separation as a legal tool to further resolve or decide the outcome of the marital contract. The language used in most states and situations makes it legal to date and engage in whatever, otherwise legal, activity one desires as though they were legally single. So your consideration of dating while separated as adultery is purely an opinion and moral judgement and not a statement of legality.
> 
> You say your ex left with your child. So you filed an emergency order at court for return of the minor to the marital home coupled with an emergency temp order of sole custody based on the mother's proven risk of flight with the child and lost that? Rhetorical.
> 
> My point is that you are bent on things you can't control. Focus on the things you can and make whatever progress that affords you going forward.



Yea I didn't understand most of whatever you just said, but I'm pretty sure that was your intent. I will attempt to respond anyways...

There isn't such a thing a legal seperation in Michigan. We were simply a married couple living apart. She has since filed for Divorce. Yes I realize the law doesn't care about Adultery, it is just my own opinion that it is morally wrong. I also believe that the social acceptance of adultery is a big part of what is wrong with this country, but that is a whole different discussion...

I did not file any type of Emergency order for my Ds return. They moved back to STBXWs parents house which is about 10 mins away and I was able to see my D often. Now we have a set schedule in our Temporary agreement. 

I don't want to control who STBXW dates. I don't care as long as they arent a pedophile. I am simply concered about the effect of involving a new man in my Ds life so soon and to such a degree. Especially when based off of STBXW relationship pattern I'm confident he will be temporary.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> OP, I wanted to share this with you because I believe how much you love your DD and want the best for her.
> 
> The Children's Bill of Rights in Divorce


Thank you


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Thank you and its no problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We have a temporary custody/child support agreement for the duration of the divorce. We are in month 3 of the 6 month waiting period required in Michigan when you have children. Yes she has primary physical custody, but we have Joint Legal custody so I do have a equal say in things such as requesting her see some sort of child psychologist. 

As far as her state of mind, I'd say STBXW is crazy, but I don't think that is what you are asking.lol..For now the only communication between us is a occasional email argument and or through our attorneys. So yea, it's not good right now. 

No, the guy she is "dating" doesn't have any criminal record. And no my D hasn't complained about him. He is in the process of divorce with his Wife and has 2 daughters a little younger than my D. So I guess he and my STBXW have alot in common. That will be even harder on all 3 of the children involved once STBXW decides to split from this guy. It will happen, it's just a matter of when.

I really don't want a change to the custody schedule. As far as everyones work hours and my Ds school shcedule, it works well so far. My issue is I don't want to have to deal with all the different Men coming to my house to pick up my D for the next 8 years, I just want it to be STBXW or her family. I also want Right of First Refusal if STBXW needs someone to keep our D. Such as if she is going to work a extra shift or going out of town. And most of all I'm concerned about the effect all of this is having or will have on my Ds mental health...


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

Ceegee said:


> Hopefully, like any parent, you don't need "permission" to attend to your child's emotional needs.
> 
> Hopefully you have the independent right to take your child to the doctor, therapist, etc.
> 
> If you do, do it. Like yesterday.


Unfortunately I can't do that. I have to have STBXWs permission or the Judge has to order it. I have tried talking STBXW into allowing it, but she won't agree to it. She is very anti counseling/therapy. It took me 3 years to convince her to go to Marriage counseling with me and she quit after only 5 sessions. Said she counseling "didn't like it and it wasn't for her". Most likely because the Psychologist that was counseling us told her the things she needed to change in order to save our Marriage and STBXW didn't want to do those things....so here we are...


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

needing_affection said:


> Unfortunately I can't do that. I have to have STBXWs permission or the Judge has to order it. I have tried talking STBXW into allowing it, but she won't agree to it. She is very anti counseling/therapy. It took me 3 years to convince her to go to Marriage counseling with me and she quit after only 5 sessions. Said she counseling "didn't like it and it wasn't for her". *Most likely because the Psychologist that was counseling us told her the things she needed to change in order to save our Marriage and STBXW didn't want to do those things*....so here we are...


Most likely because she was already dating new BF.

Sorry NA, that sucks. I would sooner file a Motion to Modify for the right to make decisions concerning your child's health than I would to keep new BF's away. 

It's more important and easier to win in court.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

Ceegee said:


> Most likely because she was already dating new BF.
> 
> Sorry NA, that sucks. I would sooner file a Motion to Modify for the right to make decisions concerning your child's health than I would to keep new BF's away.
> 
> It's more important and easier to win in court.


Yes I already filed the motion. Hopefully the Judge agrees with me...

Thansk for your help


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

I agree with Ceegee, unfourtunately you can't decide who your X wants in her life and D life unless there's a criminal record on that person. What you can do is fight for more parenting time like you have been advised here. Have a deeper bond with D so she can turst you with her feelings emotions and tell you everything that's good or bad in her life.

One day X will wake up and see the damage she's done. I just don't get how people can be so stubborn to not think on their kids first but what THEY want, What THEY need, of THEY feel.


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## needing_affection (Jan 2, 2012)

Regretf said:


> I agree with Ceegee, unfourtunately you can't decide who your X wants in her life and D life unless there's a criminal record on that person. What you can do is fight for more parenting time like you have been advised here. Have a deeper bond with D so she can turst you with her feelings emotions and tell you everything that's good or bad in her life.
> 
> One day X will wake up and see the damage she's done. I just don't get how people can be so stubborn to not think on their kids first but what THEY want, What THEY need, of THEY feel.


Yep, I agree. Thank you


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Hopefully, like any parent, you don't need "permission" to attend to your child's emotional needs.
> 
> Hopefully you have the independent right to take your child to the doctor, therapist, etc.
> 
> If you do, do it. Like yesterday.


It depends on your custody agreement and is affected by what state or country you live in.

During custody hearings, this is particularly sensitive because you can doctor shop and find an impartial therapist to suggest things that sway your custody case. So during custody cases if therapy is deemed necessary, both parents have to agree to the therapist and both contribute to the review.

For instance, during my custody evaluation, both my ex and I had psyche evaluations, as well as, my daughter. All of it required us to be agreed upon the actual therapist and the procedure. This way to protect both of our interests so that the evaluation was fair and impartial.

Now, in my custody agreement...because I have full custody, I make all health decisions. So unless there's an emergency where my daughter needs medical care, my husband couldn't just take my daughter to therapy without my consent. However, if I thought my daughter needed it for some reason, I'd certainly consent to it.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> It depends on your custody agreement and is affected by what state or country you live in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It does depend but your full custody isn't the norm. 

I am not the custodial parent but I have the exclusive right to make any decision regarding medical, behavioral, etc. 

I post here hoping fathers read what I write and understand this is the way it should be if they are involved. . They should accept no less. 

I'll have to check out your threads EG to see your story. Your XH must not be the audience my advice is intended for. 

I think OP is.


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