# Complete Burnout, lost identity



## shane0147 (May 20, 2015)

This could be long and dull, but any feedback would be appreciated.

Background.... HS sweethearts, pregnant at 17, married at 17. We had two more children and recently had our 20th anniversary. 

We did all the things we should and many things young couples dont do. We both went to good colleges, both have really good jobs. We have moved around quite a bit and that has kept some excitement in our lives. 

Overall, we would both be called good, hardworking, responsible people. I feel that we are both great dedicated parents. 

Now.... To the not so bright parts.

The excitement of being a young successful couple overshadowed the fact that we were both still kids. Through the years we were somewhat able to hold it together, but we have really grown apart. We cant ever seem to resolve conflict. Unfortunately, there is a lot if conflict. It usually turns nuclear pretty fast, and both if us are left hurt and empty. We both have a lot of resentments.

I wont go into crazy long details, but after lots of thought, i see the following as some of the biggest problems:

Connection- we have completely lost this. We do not look forward to time together. On our anniversary, we had a very lavish, kid free trip to hawaii. I hoped we could try to rekindle things, but unfortunately, there was a lot of bickering and arguing that started at about the halfway point. This made the trip less fun. The tough (maybe jealousy??) part for me is that she just went on a girls trip with several friends. The pictures i saw made it seem like she had much more fun. 

Intimacy- i used to try to talk to her about my needs. This was routinely ignored and i was made out to be a bad guy. I think i have finally come to the realization that this cant be resolved, so i really have lost interest. We will go through the motions a few times a month, but generally i could just go to sleep. This is bad for the both of us, but i dont even want to bother to talk about it any more.

Finances- we make good money, but she is controlling with me and my finances, but she doesnt hold herself to the same standard. An example.... I had a month where i spent about $200 or so in golf equipment and a few (discounted) rounds. She confronted me and told me how irresponsible i was. The next day, she used my credit card to pay about a grand towards a girls trip. (Without speaking to me). Recently, same thing happened. I got a massage package for $60 per month, she had a major issue with this. Before and after, she paid for two additional vacations. (One was a girls trip, the other with her family). I mentioned all her travel and she blew up. The truth is, i want her to have time and fun with friends, but i am very resentful that the rules change for her.

Parenting- i have to support her with the kids, she doesnt feel an obligation to support me. I have to be the bad guy and she is the hero. Lots of undermining. I will say that this has improved, slightly, but largely due to our kids sensing we are about to fight and the kids just going along. Our kids hate to see the big fights and it is bad of us to do so in front if them. We are teaching our kids how to fight, but not how to solve problems. 

Communication- we have terrible communication habits. Disagreements usually go unresolved. An example would be as follows: disagreement on something. I say my part, she either ignores, or tries to redirect. Ill usually try to stay in a calm voice, she will raise her voice in dissent.... Ill fall into the trap, at which time she tells me she isnt talking to me because if how i am talking to her. I try to be on my A game and not yell, but when i talk normal, she yells over me and claims that she is right and the argument stops then. I have gotten to the point where i ignore things just because i feel it is hopeless. 

Interests- we do not have common interests. Movies, music, hobbies, etc. this has really grown through the years, causing more of a lost connection. I find i usually just do what she wants or goes where she wants and just let go if my interests. I do believe marriage should be give and take, but i do feel resentful.

Because of all the above, i do not feel that i am in a mutually respectful marriage. I cant share my thoughts and feelings. Our connection is lost. I feel that i have completely list my identity in this marriage. 

I dont want to paint a picture that she is the sole contributor to our problems. I have played my role as well. I have been really bad about sarcasm, passive aggression, and i have probably held too many grudges through the years. 

I will say that i am the one who has tried to talk about ways to fix things, without ignoring it and hoping our marriage just magically fixes itself. I have repeatedly asked her to try counseling, marriage retreats, books, etc. She has said no to all. I truly believe this is because she is a control freak (maybe unknowingly) and is afraid to learn that she is part of the problem.

Having said all this, i cant say my heart is still in it. The truth us, i want out. I never really talk to any friends about this. We both come from highly dysfunctional families, so neither of us really have an idea of what a family "should" work together. 

............ A penny for anyones thoughts.........,,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Are you sure she isn't cheating? Several red flags... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html


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## afab (Jul 28, 2015)

Well you really need counselling. May one ask who makes more money and is it a large difference. I am not sure what a monthly massage package is and why it is necessary. If you make good money I cant see why the money you both spend is that much. Whose side are the kids on. I suppose you have a joint account and I would say for the moment dont discuss money. That usually brings out the worst in people. If she spends be quiet about it. As long as you want out you will not be able to fix it. You say you cant share your thoughts. Does she have someone whom she can and does. 
It may be better to somehow divide your accounts at least for a certain amount and let both of you spend as you wish. In a 'fight' instead of replying it may be better to 'write' down your replies instead.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Sorry Shane.

If she won't try, you could read books ir go to counseling yourself but unless at some point she chooses to engage with you, there isn't too much you can do.

Read up on the 180 and implement it. It is for you and not to save your marriage though it sometimes snaps a partner around.

Get legal advice and D papers drawn up before talking about it. You can be fair about it. You also don't have to go through with it. She should just see that you are prepared and ready to end a marriage that she won't work on.

There is also a good, maybe better than good, chance that she is cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

It is hard to know the real problem as we would need to hear both sides of the story as it were. I would suggest MC before you throw in the towel.


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## Dude007 (Jun 22, 2015)

shane0147 said:


> This could be long and dull, but any feedback would be appreciated.
> 
> Background.... HS sweethearts, pregnant at 17, married at 17. We had two more children and recently had our 20th anniversary.
> 
> ...


I hear ya bro, no major issues but you want to leave...I'm in the same boat...If she refuses counseling, I think it makes sense to bolt..DUDE


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

I'd scour facebook for a little more about those girls trips. Instagram also. The works. Whatever it is everybody shows their party's on


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I'd scour facebook for a little more about those girls trips. Instagram also. The works. Whatever it is everybody shows their party's on


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
This is the first thing you do this^^^
Plus get a voice activated recorder for her car and maybe a pen var for her purse.
You have to rule this out first.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

One other thing...
Regarding finances I highly suggest you take some money out and set up an account for yourself something doesn't pass the smell test here.
Just think about it.
And read this https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This is a kind of script for people who marry so young. The one thing I missed in your description is whether you are still in love. Are you? Does she say that she is?


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Take the time to detach and work on you for a start. Figure out if you really want to work on this marriage or not.

Also, she plays a role as well. If she does not work on herself,then it is moot since the relationship has become those of roommates.

Sounds like a bit of a mid-life crisis on her part. Marrying young, and never taking the time to develop as an independent person can make her behave like a teen.

Some people can grow together and some do not. And you two have not grown together. So evaluate, is your wife the person that you could love today, and if not do you think she is capable of being the type of partner you want, and could you be the type of partner she wants?

First, be a strong independent individual on your own, so whether the marriage fails or not, you will move on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds like you invested 100% in the marriage and didn't leave any of yourself for you. Which isn't healthy. Read the book No More Mr Nice Guy as suggested above. Then read His Needs Her Needs to understand why your marriage sucks. It will lead you to some questionnaires that both of you need to fill out so that you can learn WHO you each are married to. Consider reading portions of HNHN out loud to your wife; you'll figure out which parts. 

Start finding meaningful things for you to do for yourself. 

And start spending REAL time with your wife. HNHN suggests that you spend 15 hours a week together away from kid stuff, chores, tv, computer, work. In other words, to STAY in love, you have to actually keep dating each other. And I don't mean going out on dates, though that's helpful. I'm talking having a cup of coffee together in the morning and just chit-chatting. I'm talking taking a walk around the neighborhood, maybe under an umbrella in the rain. I'm talking setting up a jigsaw puzzle on a table and just sitting there from time to time together, working on it. I'm talking getting something like this book (http://www.amazon.com/52-Invitations-To-Grrreat-Sex/dp/0974259918) and sending invitations to each other to spice up the bedroom to make it FUN again. 

A marriage doesn't stay fun if you don't put some work into it. And it saddens me to see someone just walk away from a marriage just because of something so fixable.


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## shane0147 (May 20, 2015)

I am at least 99.9 percent sure she hasnt cheated. I know the friends she travels with and i also see pucs to verify.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

shane0147 said:


> I am at least 99.9 percent sure she hasnt cheated. I know the friends she travels with and i also see pucs to verify.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is just something to watch for as she is exhibiting several red flags.

Also. Many men and women are sure their cheating spouse isn't cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## shane0147 (May 20, 2015)

As far as the expenses go, i encourage her to take trips and visit with friends. She is a bit of an introvert and i think its good for her. I really don't say anything until she nitpicks at my smaller expenses.

I make substantially more money than her. 

Are we in love?? Id honestly say not at this point. Do we love each other? Sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

No advice, but you have my thoughts. I'm in a similar boat (don't like spending time with her, sex life dead, encourage her to go with friends so kids and I can do our stuff, poor communication), so I'm very interested in your situation (which sounds bad, as it seems that I'm happy about what you're going through, and that's the furthest from the truth). Like you, I want out, but in my case, I'm more afraid of the repercussions (friends, etc).

Stay strong, and keep us posted.


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## afab (Jul 28, 2015)

shane0147 said:


> As far as the expenses go, i encourage her to take trips and visit with friends. She is a bit of an introvert and i think its good for her. I really don't say anything until she nitpicks at my smaller expenses.
> 
> I make substantially more money than her.
> 
> ...


I suppose you were replying to me since I asked those questions. I dont understand your last sentence does that mean you are or you are not in love.
Why must she know about your 'smaller' expenses. Try not telling her. 
From what you have told us I think your marriage can be saved and improved. 
I advise you to write a letter to her. Telling her exactly what you want. You would be surprised many women dont know and while youre both shouting and screaming one cant hear. 
I am sure she will reply.


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## shane0147 (May 20, 2015)

Afab,

Yes i was quoting you. She handles most of our finances, therefore sees every penny i spend. I usually dont look at the accounts as often; therefore rarely question her.

I have written a few letters in the past. About 2 years ago, i wrote her a letter that suggested we separate for a while (in house) so that we can both spend time thinking about what we want in our lives and marriage. We were going through a really bad time of withdrawal and all the stuff ive mentioned. Even though i never mentioned divorce, she took the letter as a divorce letter. We did improve for a few months, bit she became very insecure after taking the letter out if context. From then on out, any time i made mention of finances or paying off debt, she assumed i was doing so to plan for our divorce. 

She often mentions the letter when we argue and takes me as wanting out. Because of this, i am really apprehensive about even telling her my thoughts anymore as she chooses not to take my words as i hope. (Does that make sense?). 

As far as the "are we in love" statement. Another poster asked the question and i was responding to that. Bottom line is that we would both agree that our relationship has little resemblance of two people in love. We both love each other, but mainly as parents of our children, not as husband and wife. We rarely enjoy time together and cant really share experiences anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dude007 (Jun 22, 2015)

shane0147 said:


> Afab,
> 
> Yes i was quoting you. She handles most of our finances, therefore sees every penny i spend. I usually dont look at the accounts as often; therefore rarely question her.
> 
> ...


I'm in the exact same boat....DUDE


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

shane0147 said:


> I have written a few letters in the past. About 2 years ago, i wrote her a letter that suggested we separate for a while (in house) so that we can both spend time thinking about what we want in our lives and marriage. We were going through a really bad time of withdrawal and all the stuff ive mentioned. Even though i never mentioned divorce, she took the letter as a divorce letter. We did improve for a few months, bit she became very insecure after taking the letter out if context. From then on out, any time i made mention of finances or paying off debt, she assumed i was doing so to plan for our divorce.
> 
> She often mentions the letter when we argue and takes me as wanting out.


So? 

She NEEDS to know you have one foot out the door. How else is she supposed to take you seriously when you say you're not happy? There's no room for unconditional love in a marriage. You each have to continue to EARN your place in a marriage. Or the other person will leave.

She needs to understand that.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
Have you asked her point blank if she wants to remain married? If her answer is yes then explain that what you two currently have is really not a marriage, it is an arrangement. Emphasize that you desire a real marriage, preferably with her but not necessarily. If she is interested, then she will have to put forth the effort as she would into any worthwhile endeavor.

There cannot exist a marriage without both parties putting in sufficient effort. If she is completely unwilling, then you must make a decision at that point as to your future with her. As Turnera said it is fixable but only if BOTH parties want to fix it. One or the other cannot fix it alone, it takes a combined effort.

I believe one problem to be that you two are too successful. Adversity and hardship can be quite a catalyst for uniting a young, struggling couple as they learn to depend on one another, work to overcome life's obstacles together, make their own fun together and learn to accept what they have and make the best of it. Currently, she seems more enamored with money than with you. Life is a party with vacations and trips, most of which do not include you. This is problematic to say the least. Personally, I would rather live a modest life with a mate that I adore and who adores me than to be wealthy and, well, living as you two are. As it turns out the "easy life" is not so easy after all. Good luck to you.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

You wrote her a letter that suggested you both separate for a while (in house) so that you can both spend time thinking about what you want in our lives and marriage. 

That makes no sense how are you going to separate in your house? No wonder she is insecure, she heard the work separate which usually ends in divorce. You are both to blame for the decline in your marriage. It sounds like you do want out. She obviously doesn't feel the same way that you do about ending it. Have you giving her suggestions about ways to improve your marriage?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Shane, another guy with no advice to give. Your situation sounds a lot like the one I was in when my marriage ended. In retrospect I see the cracks and fissures very clearly now. At the time I thought it was just part of the normal ups and downs of married life. Now I know better. You are a head of the game recognizing the problems before it is too late. Whether she is willing to try to fix them is up to her, but as others have said, take care of your self and prepare for your future whether with her or without. I guess I did have some advice


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

shane0147 said:


> Afab,
> 
> Yes i was quoting you. She handles most of our finances, therefore sees every penny i spend. I usually dont look at the accounts as often; therefore rarely question her.


 Just a friendly piece of advice because I see a storm a brewing here. You better start taking a active role in you finances since she handles most of it. If this head into something more serious and you make a lot more than her there's a chance she might salt a few bucks away for the future if things go south.

Next thing is coming up with a budget. No one says you have to be a tight wad with money but when she's spending a ton of money on trips and then *****es at you for spending far less then she needs to be put on a budget and stick with it.

If she complains then let her know that if it comes down to a few rounds of golf Vs a couple trips with the girl friends then the deck is stacked against you.

All in all start taking a interest in you money situation or you might come to regret it.


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## afab (Jul 28, 2015)

Well of course that kind of letter you wrote was a mistake. But its too late now. It wasnt the kind of letter I meant. But it explains her attitude. If she thinks you are on the verge of divorce anyway why should she bother. I am not sure how you can make it up to her. I can only think of counselling in other words a third person. 
It sounds like a lost case. Separating your finances will only make her more bitter and believe the divorce is imminent. Sometimes it helps to do the opposite. In other ways say the divorce is imminent if she doesnt improve. It really depends a lot of what her opinion of being divorced is. 
You have to keep a separate account without her knowledge. Make sure you dont get letters sent to you about it. Giving ultimatums which she thought it was is never good in a letter unless you are prepared to go through with it. It comes back all the time to haunt you.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Tell her starting tomorrow that you must both bring up a purchase for discussion if it's over $100 (or pick an amount reasonable to you). Spending without notifying you to the tune of $1K is pretty disrespectful in my book. If you're pooling your income, it's especially disrespectful, but if she paid with her own money (not her portion of the contributions to bills and such), then it's be hers to do with as she wants, provided she's not behind in her financial contributions. 

Just be open-eyed about her desire to do what she wants. We ALL want to do what we want, but marriage and child rearing is (usually) a choice that we make,which includes some sacrifices on both people's parts. She's getting a tad bit of the grandiose thinking... Mix that with gno and unless she has upstanding female friends with great boundaries, she's regressing into the early 20s lifestyle. 

She may need some fun in her life, but it should include you, and be called a "date."


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## shane0147 (May 20, 2015)

turnera said:


> So?
> 
> She NEEDS to know you have one foot out the door. How else is she supposed to take you seriously when you say you're not happy? There's no room for unconditional love in a marriage. You each have to continue to EARN your place in a marriage. Or the other person will leave.
> 
> She needs to understand that.


That was how it was the first time, after I wrote her a letter a few years ago. I really felt it would be best to move on. She seemed quite receptive to things for a while after that. I don't know how many times during the course of my life I am willing to use the "I'll leave if...." veiled threat. I sort of dream of a world with mutual respect in a marriage. (pipe dream?)



NoChoice said:


> OP,
> Have you asked her point blank if she wants to remain married? If her answer is yes then explain that what you two currently have is really not a marriage, it is an arrangement. Emphasize that you desire a real marriage, preferably with her but not necessarily. If she is interested, then she will have to put forth the effort as she would into any worthwhile endeavor.
> 
> There cannot exist a marriage without both parties putting in sufficient effort. If she is completely unwilling, then you must make a decision at that point as to your future with her. As Turnera said it is fixable but only if BOTH parties want to fix it. One or the other cannot fix it alone, it takes a combined effort.
> ...


I have asked her that, almost verbatim. She essentially refuses to answer, as though I should know. I think she wants to remain in the marriage; however, I also believe that we both feel that we will file for D the day our youngest child turns 18. I think she is willing to stick it out "for the kids". I'm not sure if that is good for the kids.

We have actually had a great deal of adversity. We were married extremely young. We had to work our way through college and climb a few ladders with our careers. We also lost a child about 9 years ago, which was devastating. 

There was a time where we felt like we had to save up to be poor. 



Happilymarried25 said:


> You wrote her a letter that suggested you both separate for a while (in house) so that you can both spend time thinking about what you want in our lives and marriage.
> 
> That makes no sense how are you going to separate in your house? No wonder she is insecure, she heard the work separate which usually ends in divorce. You are both to blame for the decline in your marriage. It sounds like you do want out. She obviously doesn't feel the same way that you do about ending it. Have you giving her suggestions about ways to improve your marriage?


My suggestion was to live as separate as we could in the house, so that we did not face any additional hardship by making a spontaneous decision. That is a term that I learned about on some of these relationship websites. My idea was no sex, separate rooms, speak about only things material to our relationship and children. I can see how some might think it is a silly idea (as did she). Her thoughts at the time were, either just go straight for divorce or stay together, which is what we did.



Ynot said:


> Shane, another guy with no advice to give. Your situation sounds a lot like the one I was in when my marriage ended. In retrospect I see the cracks and fissures very clearly now. At the time I thought it was just part of the normal ups and downs of married life. Now I know better. You are a head of the game recognizing the problems before it is too late. Whether she is willing to try to fix them is up to her, but as others have said, take care of your self and prepare for your future whether with her or without. I guess I did have some advice


Thanks for the advice. It's good to hear that someone thinks I'm not crazy for considering throwing in the towel. 



6301 said:


> Just a friendly piece of advice because I see a storm a brewing here. You better start taking a active role in you finances since she handles most of it. If this head into something more serious and you make a lot more than her there's a chance she might salt a few bucks away for the future if things go south.
> 
> Next thing is coming up with a budget. No one says you have to be a tight wad with money but when she's spending a ton of money on trips and then *****es at you for spending far less then she needs to be put on a budget and stick with it.
> 
> ...


To pour salt in that wound, we recently sold an investment house. She decided it was best to pay off all of her debt with the proceeds, and leave my debt for later.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Sorry, brother, but where are your nuts? Why did you allow her to prioritize her debt and not yours?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Shane, you wrote "To pour salt in that wound, we recently sold an investment house. She decided it was best to pay off all of her debt with the proceeds, and leave my debt for later."

That is another strong parallel with the situation I was in. My ex had bought a brand new car a few years back. The idea was that she would make double and triple payments on it to get it paid off ASAP. When it was paid off we would get a car for me. Lo and behold about the same time her car was about paid off, my car broke down. About the time it was paid off was the time she decided to leave. In the meantime I had paid every other bill, including her car insurance and the $1000 a month for our daughter's college. IOW I had helped her parachute from the marriage into a debt free life after. Since our divorce she has bought a condo while I am stuck living in an apartment. I understand you wanting to make things work, I don't think you are crazy, I think you still love your wife. But you need to take care of yourself. Prepare yourself for the worst. Even if the worst doesn't come to pass, at least you will be stronger.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Talking about leaving is not for a negotiation tactic. That's misusing it. Just like HER saying 'well you'll leave me' is a tactic.

Talking about leaving is you discussing with her YOUR BOUNDARIES. Your boundary is that you won't stay in an unhealthy marriage for the rest of your life. It's informing her that your new boundary is you'll only give such a marriage a certain amount of your time. And if it doesn't get better, your consequence that you set for YOURSELF is that you will LEAVE that marriage. It's what YOU do in YOUR life. 

All you owe HER is informing her what YOUR boundary and YOUR consequence for that boundary being crossed is. 

She is then free to do with that information what she will. 

By telling her that you are going to leave the marriage if something doesn't change, the ball is in her court.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

shane0147 said:


> I have asked her that, almost verbatim. She essentially refuses to answer, as though I should know. I think she wants to remain in the marriage; however, I also believe that we both feel that we will file for D the day our youngest child turns 18. I think she is willing to stick it out "for the kids". I'm not sure if that is good for the kids.
> 
> We have actually had a great deal of adversity. We were married extremely young. We had to work our way through college and climb a few ladders with our careers. We also lost a child about 9 years ago, which was devastating.
> 
> There was a time where we felt like we had to save up to be poor.


Were you happier then or now?


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## shane0147 (May 20, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> Were you happier then or now?


Thats a good question. Probably in ways i was happier. Really depends on when. I think the last 5-6 years have been progressively worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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