# Let's talk about limerence



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

For those of you whom have had affairs, please explain the emotional/feelings you were going through to create the fog of limerence.

How long did it last?
What did you think about?
How did it feel?
Did it interfere with your day to day living/commitments?
Did you realize what was happening to you?
When did the cloud lift?

I thought this thread might be useful for BS as a further way of identifying cheating in their marriage.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Crickets????


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

@aine I think you're gonna have a tough time getting responses to this query, given how cheaters tend to get raked over the coals on TAM :/

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yeah it seems it would be too hurtful to talk about this here. Though there are many threads over at Marriage Builders where former waywards admit to all of their thoughts during the fog.

I can say in dating, limerance kind of comes over you the same way if you meet someone you feel all sparkly about immediately. It preoccupies your mind and you find you are putting everything else in your life to the back of your mind while you imagine this new person in your life.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

aine said:


> For those of you whom have had affairs, please explain the emotional/feelings you were going through to create the fog of limerence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just a week before I proposed to my wife, something strange happened to me once (and I felt beginnings of limerence I think).

It was at a time when I suddenly started travelling a lot all over the place and often felt like the ground was being ripped from under my feet (waking up in hotels, not remembering what city I was in and absolutely no one to talk to).
I met someone I could talk to on one trip and within a space of 2 hours must have developed some form of attachment. Because for the few days I was in that country, I kept looking forward to the conversations with that person...
Anyway, when I left (and thank goodness I had to leave...), I felt what felt like withdrawal symptoms. They were quite strong and made me very confused, to the point that I felt almost suicidal for the next week or so.
I was due to meet my (future) wife in another country, who I was going to propose to, travelling with an engagement ring everywhere and here I was thinking and missing someone completely different. WTF? 

In hindsight, it feels like it was an illness. At the time, it was a very powerful feeling, not really controllable by my mind at all.

I learnt many things from it. Most importantly, not getting into situations like these in the first place. And have some sort of skeptic attitude towards such feelings in general (that it is unlikely that they are real and most likely just my own projections onto someone, of something I desperately need). And that the mind is not always in control of anything all that much (but that realisation keeps resonating and coming back from time to time throughout my life, regardless of limerance).

The downside of it also left me thinking what IS actually real. And what if illusion and our own storytelling is at the centre of pretty much anything. What if my feelings towards my wife have actually nothing to do with her either...But that’s a different conversation.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

The funny thing is, something similar happened to her too around the same time (when I started travelling a lot). She couldn't put two and two together at the time (that it was starting to get too personal/emotionally involved). And I don't really blame her because the general thinking is "if it's not physical it can't be inappropriate!". Which I still think is true to some extent. But it's more complicated. I think these things are just an expression of an underlying problem (eg drifting apart from each other in our case).


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

lim·er·ence: a state of mind which results from a romantic attraction to another person and typically *includes obsessive thoughts and fantasies* and a desire to form or *maintain a relationship* with the object of love and have one's feelings reciprocated.

For me, it was about those two things. I woke up and went to bed thinking of my past AP. I missed him terribly and cried everyday for months. And I was deep in it for a longer than I care to admit. It took therapy and tons of reading on the brain before I could pull myself out of it. That happened once I realized that the affair was a form of escape from an unsatisfying, inauthentic life. Once I got that through my head I was able to make some concrete changes and begin to put the object of my limerence/love in the rearview window. The only way to do that was to cut off contact completely. That meant not only no more texting as "friends" (is that ever really possible with an ex?) but no more looking at his FB profile. I had to delete FB from my phone for a while to accomplish the last one. 

I've been through a lot in my life, but very few things were as hard as breaking the addiction to him. I'm left now to wonder who I am and why I allowed that to happen. But the raw truth is that there is still a lingering sadness that someone who was once so important to me is becoming a stranger again. Nostalgia is the last hurdle and I'm deterimined to clear it.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

aine said:


> For those of you whom have had affairs, please explain the emotional/feelings you were going through to create the fog of limerence.
> 
> How long did it last?
> What did you think about?
> ...


I wouldn't say there was a "fog" of limerence for me. I wasn't foggy. I knew exactly what was going on and exactly what I was doing.

How long it lasted depended on the AP. Most were one or a few time things after which the limerence/heightened attraction faded. With a few limerence/heightened attraction lasted years. 

I thought about some AP's more than others. With a short term AP there wasn't much to think about. I met them, we chatted and joked around, there was a vibe, we had sex, and I went back to my life. No reason to think about them. 

The others I had relationships with and thought about in the way and at the frequency you'd expect from a new romantic relationship. I thought about the sex, the conversations we had, when we'd spend time together again, where we'd go, what we'd do.

When I was with my AP it felt good. The flirting, the anticipation, teasing glances, touches, and so on. When I was away from my AP I was busy raising younglings, taking care of a house, having a social life, and helping family. There weren't any feelings other than in reaction to whatever was going on in my life in general.

No, my affairs didn't interfere in my day to day. I compartmentalize well and, back then, could live on very little sleep.

I realized what was happening to me immediately. I would assume it's common enough to be recognizable to anyone. Classic boy meets girl, there's mutual attraction, they spend some time together and things progress from there.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> When I was with my AP it felt good. The flirting, the anticipation, teasing glances, touches, and so on.


Why do we have to lose this? Why does this have to be beaten out of us over time? What is it about such things that we tend to eventually view them as "shouldn't be necessary anymore?" 

I think limerance can last. Or at least be rekindled. I think something happens in "emotional bonding" that represents a search for, and finding, that limerance. It's fleeting because it's not real but rather a memory at that point, without foundation. 

The memory of limerance is probably what drives a lot of couples apart. There's an assumption that that feeling is gone forever. And yet, a random encounter with someone can bring that back up to the surface and, I think, become the driving force for an affair.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> Why do we have to lose this? Why does this have to be beaten out of us over time? What is it about such things that we tend to eventually view them as "shouldn't be necessary anymore?"
> 
> I think limerance can last. Or at least be rekindled. I think something happens in "emotional bonding" that represents a search for, and finding, that limerance. It's fleeting because it's not real but rather a memory at that point, without foundation.
> 
> The memory of limerance is probably what drives a lot of couples apart. There's an assumption that that feeling is gone forever. And yet, a random encounter with someone can bring that back up to the surface and, I think, become the driving force for an affair.


I don't think you HAVE to lose it, but I think that keeping it requires effort. Effort that a lot of people either don't think about, or effort they don't want to invest (or don't they should have to invest) to keep the relationship happy and healthy.

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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> I don't think you HAVE to lose it, but I think that keeping it requires effort. Effort that a lot of people either don't think about, or effort they don't want to invest (or don't they should have to invest) to keep the relationship happy and healthy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


That’s my point; you don’t have to lose it. But if only one party is trying to keep it alive, it can almost be counter productive. The other person might get what’s being tried but not feeling the spark. They are reminded there’s no spark and they’re not up to working on it because that wasn’t the plan. Then they catch a glimpse of that spark in a random encounter and, well, it’s kind of like the’ve Been primed for it. 

Staying in love sometimes requires work. But that requirement doesn’t mean love is gone.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

UGH.

The nonsense "fog" excuse that so many BS's desperately cling to. They serve this nonsense up by the *pound* over on SI. 

Betrayed spouses delude themselves by thinking their cheater was '_*in the fog*_' when they cheated on them. I think it makes the BS feel better thinking their cheater didn't have any control over their behavior rather than face the fact that their cheater made ALL the decisions they made because they wanted to - period. Why have none of them ever thought about the fact that in order to be IN the fog, their cheater had to make many many decisions to GET to that point? Do they think the guy was reading his Bible at lunch and this magical fog just randomly rolled in, lifted him up, threw him at some woman and took all control of his emotions from him - all against his will???? I mean, come on.

While I agree that lots of folks - affair or not - _can_ experience 'limerance' to some degree, it's not a certainty, and it's definitely no excuse for the lies and betrayal a cheater *CHOOSES* to engage in when they decide to cheat on their spouse. More so, not every cheater is LOOKING for romance and feelings. There are PLENTY of them out there just looking for a good time and nothing more, and the mythical 'fog' isn't even a *part* of the equation.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Casual Observer said:


> Why do we have to lose this? Why does this have to be beaten out of us over time? What is it about such things that we tend to eventually view them as "shouldn't be necessary anymore?"
> 
> I think limerance can last. Or at least be rekindled. I think something happens in "emotional bonding" that represents a search for, and finding, that limerance. It's fleeting because it's not real but rather a memory at that point, without foundation.
> 
> The memory of limerance is probably what drives a lot of couples apart. There's an assumption that that feeling is gone forever. And yet, a random encounter with someone can bring that back up to the surface and, I think, become the driving force for an affair.


I don't think limerence has to be lost or beaten out of us over time. It's part of the "in love" feeling and, at least for me and DH, has never gone away. Still get excited to see each other at the end of the day, still only have eyes for each other in crowded rooms, still can't keep our hands to ourselves, and think about each other constantly, yadda yadda yadda. Sure, we've had our fights. Sure, life has thrown a lot at us between kids, family, home ownership, pet ownership, births and deaths. Sure, we've had some long term financial hardships and health scares. If anything, the hard bits made the feels more intence rather than less.

He's the only man I ever felt twitterpated over and still am after nearly 20 years.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> UGH.
> 
> The nonsense "fog" excuse that so many BS's desperately cling to. They serve this nonsense up by the *pound* over on SI.
> 
> ...


As a former WS who has spent serious time IRL and online talking to other WS's, I have to agree here.

Just because you meet someone and are in limerence, defined as "a state of mind which results from a romantic attraction to another person and typically includes obsessive thoughts and fantasies and a desire to form or maintain a relationship with the object of love and have one's feelings reciprocated" doesn't mean you get invaded by body snatchers or get lobotomized and suddenly become incapable of knowing right from wrong or become incapable of self control.

I don't know a single cheater who didn't know exactly what they were doing or exactly what they were risking. Some didn't think they'd ever get caught and the rest simple didn't really care.

Let's just call it what it is instead of pretending it's some kind of temporary insanity. It's being sexually and emotionally/mentally attracted to someone and deciding to act on it. No more or less.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> Why do we have to lose this? Why does this have to be beaten out of us over time? What is it about such things that we tend to eventually view them as "shouldn't be necessary anymore?"
> 
> I think limerance can last. Or at least be rekindled. I think something happens in "emotional bonding" that represents a search for, and finding, that limerance. It's fleeting because it's not real but rather a memory at that point, without foundation.
> 
> The memory of limerance is probably what drives a lot of couples apart. There's an assumption that that feeling is gone forever. And yet, a random encounter with someone can bring that back up to the surface and, I think, become the driving force for an affair.


Because the good feelings were due doing bad things
Fondly remembering those feelings prevents owning what you did was bad
not owning hence not regretting those actions allows those bad actions to be repeated years later


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

oldtruck said:


> Because the good feelings were due doing bad things
> Fondly remembering those feelings prevents owning what you did was bad
> not owning hence not regretting those actions allows those bad actions to be repeated years later


I'm not following this. How does trying to keep that original spark alive create bad things? Are we living in a zero-sum world so the best we can hope for is a compromised mediocrity in which nobody gets hurt but nobody feels great about their marriage either?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> oldtruck said:
> 
> 
> > Because the good feelings were due doing bad things
> ...


I mean, I don’t really get it either. My exh and I had limerance all through our relationship, every day.

And I don’t think I would want to be in a new relationship without it. To me that’s the fun part! It makes me happy to see him every day, makes me have things to look forward to all the time (just getting home to see him after work, for instance).

I have sometimes heard people say that they would not like to feel that high, giddy feeling forever. They say it would get exhausting.

It was never exhausting to me, it was awesome. We both talked about how we loved feeling that way. 

But if we weren’t both into feeling it, if one of us lost that feeling, probably the other one would have eventually also. But there was something about the match up of us that made it possible to continue these feelings.

Since then, I did have one boyfriend who I felt that way about consistently and he did also. I’m not sure if it was tested out long enough, but that gave me the faith that when I meet the right person, they will also have whatever that thing is that helps us keep the flame stoked forever.

I’m thinking that if a couple had this and it disappeared within a short time, then they probably don’t have that thing in them, or one of them doesn’t. I’m not sure it can be stoked without that quality.

The only thing I’ve found that seemed to be a hint in knowing who might have this feeling long term with me is that they, like me, are very affectionate. Like holding hands or touching each other casually all the time. People I have dated who were not affectionate, I did not feel that sparkly thing for them. Like there was something that was not a match enough to bring that out of me.

Also I stopped dating anyone right away if I found they are not affectionate. It’s now a red flag for me that we are not going to be a match.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I have sometimes heard people say that they would not like to feel that high, giddy feeling forever. They say it would get exhausting.
> 
> It was never exhausting to me, it was awesome. We both talked about how we loved feeling that way.


 I've found it energizing instead of exhausting. It's a feedback loop. The limerenc-y feelings give us the energy to adult and still be able to devote time to each other daily and then we feed that energy back to the relationship during the time we're spending together. Not to mention that energy can be channeled into useful tasks while we're waiting to be together.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

It's nothing more than dopamine addiction.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> It's nothing more than dopamine addiction.


And one dopamine addiction (love) can be replaced by another (porn or games). I don't buy the idea that a dopamine addiction is bad per se. Depends upon the addiction and the ability/willingness of someone to fuel it (in the case of love). Sure, love is paved with ups and downs, it will never be a constant high. But those downs can help you to recognize how awesome the ups are. The ingredient that keeps us going through the downs is hope. Hope that tomorrow may see today's missed opportunity come to life. 

I am increasingly coming to recognize that lack of hope, lack of being able to anticipate something good/fun/pleasurable, is key to things falling apart. A pre-dopamine state of being I guess?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Always used to think the fog was after a sexual encounter with an AP. 

Also, the title of the thread made me think of the commercial for gummy bears. What flavor is limerence? lol

I believe it's just a rush of chemicals to the brain. Some of which cause bonding. Others simply make us feel good for a little while. Thank you to those who responded. No hate from me


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MJJEAN said:


> As a former WS who has spent serious time IRL and online talking to other WS's, I have to agree here.
> 
> Just because you meet someone and are in limerence, defined as "a state of mind which results from a romantic attraction to another person and typically includes obsessive thoughts and fantasies and a desire to form or maintain a relationship with the object of love and have one's feelings reciprocated" doesn't mean you get invaded by body snatchers or get lobotomized and suddenly become incapable of knowing right from wrong or become incapable of self control.
> 
> ...


Before, they are more rational, except once they decide they want to cheat, they start to sift through their marriage, and start to pull out all the things they didn't like. And then magnify them. Obsess about them. It's a fixation that Jack doesn't pick up his shoes or Jane wears sweat pants to bed. Or whatever. The point is, the rationalization engine is in high gear, giving the person an extremely distorted view of the marriage. Reality is not what it seems any more. Not only have they been wronged by the marriage, their spouse is an inconsiderate *******. And they deserve to have some joy in their life after having all their happiness sucked out of them by their terrible spouse!

During, they're on a high. They're getting laid like tile. They're sexting. They're getting all this dopamine and orgasms and the thrill of getting away with it. They're on a high, and everything's working! Everybody's been lying to them all this time - they can, in fact, have their cake and eat it, too! Their spouses are frequently happy because they're happier. They're often having more sex with their spouse, often paying more attention to their appearance, often acting more confidently. It's like all is suddenly right with the world, and they've been told a lie by everyone that said cheating is bad. And to top it off, they're getting constant affirmations, complements, and attention - from two (or more) people! Life is good and anybody that tells them otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.

After, they crash. They "wake up" from "being in a fog." They don't recognize themselves. They don't know how they could have done this, they frequently say "it felt like I was someone else." They "never stopped loving their spouse" even though objectively, they did. They "didn't mean to hurt anyone" when objectively, they risked it willingly. They will "do anything to make it right" which usually lasts from 2 weeks to 2 months, where it becomes too much work and "why can't you just get over it." At this point, it's usually dead in my experience and everybody walks away. Or the person that got cheated on starts to take the blame. Or the person cheating starts rationalizing again about someone else... because their spouse "just won't get over it."

To be rational, you have to live in reality. It's kinda necessary. Most cheaters dip into reality and out of it when it suits them, which leads to delusion. They're also very good at rationalization and lying to themselves, so sometimes they don't even know what reality is any more.

I'm not speaking of everyone of course. Just some generalities I've noticed up close and personal.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Maybe you saw my thread in private, @Marduk? Pretty much proved all of that in one 10 minute conversation.

I came back just to look. I think I'm gonna unsubscribe from this thread. Those realities hit me hard tonight. Thank you. I needed to remember, but don't need to dwell on them.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> . I don't buy the idea that a dopamine addiction is bad per se. Depends upon the addiction and the ability/willingness of someone to fuel it (in the case of love)


And CO this is not against you in any way.. 

I agree to a point but say you're in a sexless marriage. And you must satisfy oneself does a person stop after one lone encounter with themselves. No the charge is still there the anticipation of meeting the need. Is repeated time and time again. Is why limerence is it's own high and the lousy cheating spouse needs it just like a junkie does. There is no honor in that state of mind, just total gross personal satifisfiction regardless who it hurts or the cost. But the the cheating spouse says that they can love more than one to justify it daily as if a normal thing to do. It is what it is those types are mental unstable regardless of what they say. 

I didn't even want to post sheesh.,...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> Maybe you saw my thread in private, @Marduk? Pretty much proved all of that in one 10 minute conversation.
> 
> I came back just to look. I think I'm gonna unsubscribe from this thread. Those realities hit me hard tonight. Thank you. I needed to remember, but don't need to dwell on them.


Sorry, I didn’t mean to cause you pain.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Limerence is just the initial attraction and excitement and attraction of the beginnings of a relationship. That deep desire to want to be with someone. You can have that with any relationship. You are just supposed to stop yourself from acting on it when you are married. You can have this with lots of people so it's nothing special either. 


It's certainly not love. 

That's the thing, people think that love is the all encompassing desire to be with someone, but that's not love because that need is selfish. Love is not selfish. Desire is, lust is. That is what people mistake for love. Songs are written about that feeling and they also mistake it for love. Again it's not. 

But that explains why someone can think they are in "LOVE" with their AP, and then once they get caught they turn on a dime and now feel deep "LOVE" for their spouse. My contention is that type of person has no idea what love is, they mistake the feeling of desperately wanting to be with someone as love. 

This is how limerence works too.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Marduk said:


> After, they crash. They "wake up" from "being in a fog." They don't recognize themselves. They don't know how they could have done this, they frequently say "it felt like I was someone else."


Ok, Ima say it. This is nothing less than blameshifting. Rather than blameshift toward the other spouse, they blameshift toward "the fog".

"I was in a fog! It's like it wasn't me! I was in the clutches of the limerence and couldn't control myself. It was like I was possessed! I didn't recognize myself." 

The theme here is appearing to take responsibility for the affair while at the same time lessening that responsibility by blaming "the fog". The reality is, if the mind was so addled they also wouldn't have been able to manage the logistics of having and concealing the affair. Hell, if they were so addled they couldn't understand what they were doing, couldn't understand the possible consequences, and couldn't control themselves, they'd be unable to manage driving, working, or tying their own shoes.

You know how there are some things you just don't say, even if they're true, because it's just too honest? Because, once it's said things change forever and not in a good way?

"Does this dress make my butt look big?" Very few people being asked this question are going to say "Well, yes. The cut, type, and color of that fabric just doesn't flatter your figure and you could stand to lose a few pounds." 

In an infidelity situation, when asked "Why, how, did you allow yourself to do that to me? To us?" very few people are going to tell the flat out truth. "Because I really, really, wanted to and then it was just a matter of logistics."




sokillme said:


> But that explains why someone can think they are in "LOVE" with their AP, and then once they get caught they turn on a dime and now feel deep "LOVE" for their spouse.


Cheaters get something from their primary relationship. That's why they have affairs rather than end the primary relationship and date as a single person. They don't want to lose what they're getting from their primary relationship, but they also want whatever they will get from the affair. Once the affair is ended all they have left is the primary. Cue deep love for primary.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MJJEAN said:


> Ok, Ima say it. This is nothing less than blameshifting. Rather than blameshift toward the other spouse, they blameshift toward "the fog".
> 
> "I was in a fog! It's like it wasn't me! I was in the clutches of the limerence and couldn't control myself. It was like I was possessed! I didn't recognize myself."
> 
> The theme here is appearing to take responsibility for the affair while at the same time lessening that responsibility by blaming "the fog". The reality is, if the mind was so addled they also wouldn't have been able to manage the logistics of having and concealing the affair. Hell, if they were so addled they couldn't understand what they were doing, couldn't understand the possible consequences, and couldn't control themselves, they'd be unable to manage driving, working, or tying their own shoes.


I don’t disagree. It’s commonly reported though, and an interesting topic to explore without just discarding it wholecloth. 

Sex and rationalization is a powerful cocktail.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> UGH.
> 
> The nonsense "fog" excuse that so many BS's desperately cling to. They serve this nonsense up by the *pound* over on SI.
> 
> ...


Too simplistic, but a lot of good stuff. 

I agree that cheating is a choice. I agree that limerance does not excuse it. But I also think it catches some cheaters by surprise, and in part explains some decisions and weird thought processes in the cheating spouse. 

You also point out different cheaters are looking for different things. I agree with that too. That plays into whether a marriage can be saved after an affair, in my thinking.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> As a former WS who has spent serious time IRL and online talking to other WS's, I have to agree here.
> 
> Just because you meet someone and are in limerence, defined as "a state of mind which results from a romantic attraction to another person and typically includes obsessive thoughts and fantasies and a desire to form or maintain a relationship with the object of love and have one's feelings reciprocated" doesn't mean you get invaded by body snatchers or get lobotomized and suddenly become incapable of knowing right from wrong or become incapable of self control.
> 
> ...


But that is (I think) one serial cheater discussing their journey with other serial cheaters. Is that right?

Doesn’t invalidate the point you are making. I just wonder if it is true of every cheater in the same way. Whether it was as true the first time you cheated as the last.

The very fact you discussit suggests you had a need to understand it. Is that fair?


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Marduk said:


> I don’t disagree. It’s commonly reported though, and an interesting topic to explore without just discarding it wholecloth.
> 
> 
> 
> Sex and rationalization is a powerful cocktail.


Honestly, I'm not surprised that people who cheat would try to skirt responsibility for their actions (by blaming it on the "fog").

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

FeministInPink said:


> Honestly, I'm not surprised that people who cheat would try to skirt responsibility for their actions (by blaming it on the "fog").
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Sure, I think that’s the root of it - rationalization and ego protection. It’s part of how someone can do some very bad things and still think they are a good person. We all are the heroes of our own story. 

But it is interesting. I’ve discussed it with a few people, and I can say that they honestly seem confused by their own behaviour. 

The psychology of it is fascinating.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Wazza said:


> But that is (I think) one serial cheater discussing their journey with other serial cheaters. Is that right?
> 
> Doesn’t invalidate the point you are making. I just wonder if it is true of every cheater in the same way. Whether it was as true the first time you cheated as the last.
> 
> The very fact you discuss it suggests you had a need to understand it. Is that fair?


My perspective is that of one serial cheater discussing cheating with other cheaters, yes. Not all were serial cheaters, but most were.

According to the accounts of affairs I've been privy to, it does seem to be fairly consistent between 1st and last.

Most discussions weren't about understanding the reasoning for the affair so much as determining what to do about the affair and/or the primary relationship. To tell or not to tell, to start, stop, or continue an affair, to stay or leave, how to go about it, etc. An awful lot of "Person turns me on so hard! I know I shouldn't/shouldn't have, but I really want(ed) Person and..."

Most figured they wouldn't get caught. The rest figured getting caught was a possibility, but the affair was or would be worth it.

The rest of the discussions have been talking about why a marriage ended or is ending. You know, they typical "Yeah, I was married 6 years, but s/he divorced me." "Why?" "I had an affair with the babysitter." "Well, why the Hell did ya do that?"


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> My perspective is that of one serial cheater discussing cheating with other cheaters, yes. Not all were serial cheaters, but most were.
> 
> According to the accounts of affairs I've been privy to, it does seem to be fairly consistent between 1st and last.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I appreciate your candour. 

I guess I would have thought that the first time there would be some emotional conflict (“I want this but I shouldn’t”) and over time you would get more used to things and just accept it for what it is. Is it that you never felt the conflict, or that you always felt it? Edit to add...or does my question show I don’t understand?


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> I'm not following this. How does trying to keep that original spark alive create bad things? Are we living in a zero-sum world so the best we can hope for is a compromised mediocrity in which nobody gets hurt but nobody feels great about their marriage either?


context of the limerence feelings after an affair.

keeping those "good" feelings a live in the memory is how a WS back
slides and the affair restarts

also limerence works against having remorse for the wrong that they did


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

There once was a man from Nantucket.... Oh sorry I read that wrong.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Wazza said:


> Thanks, I appreciate your candour.
> 
> I guess I would have thought that the first time there would be some emotional conflict (“I want this but I shouldn’t”) and over time you would get more used to things and just accept it for what it is. Is it that you never felt the conflict, or that you always felt it? Edit to add...or does my question show I don’t understand?


 Some feel the conflict and it fades over time. Others never really feel it. 

I, personally, was not very conflicted. I can best describe my own conflict as short lived, few and far between, twinges. 

*twinge* "What you're doing is largely accepted as morally wrong." 
*twinge* "According to how you were raised you are committing grievous sin."

Most of the people I talked to that did have conflict were primarily conflicted about their marriages as opposed to their spouses. As in, they weren't concerned with their spouses one way or another, but they were at least somewhat concerned about "the marriage". It's like they were content with their lives as married people, but not with the person they married, if that makes any sense.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> Some feel the conflict and it fades over time. Others never really feel it.
> 
> I, personally, was not very conflicted. I can best describe my own conflict as short lived, few and far between, twinges.
> 
> ...


I think the concern over "the marriage" is one that is dismissed too easily on TAM. I'm not in love with my spouse, I haven't been for a long time. If I'm fair (and I try hard to be fair) I would have to say that I probably was OUT of love with him by the time I married him. It's one of the main reasons I was able to be kinder toward him than he deserved after the cheating bomb he threw into our marriage. It wasn't until I had an affair myself that I could actually say I knew what it was to be truly "in love" with someone. 

Marriage involves so much more than the two people at its center. It's a partnership that encompasses the responsibility of children, financial commitments, and the friends and extended family that surround that unit. I was reminded of this when I recently attended the wedding of a cousin on my H's side. I was there with all of our children, H, and his cousins that I have now known and been loved by for over 30 years. 

My H and I are working together to pay down debts and shore up retirement funds. My youngest is in college, but still living at home, as is his elder sister. It's the only home any of my children have ever known. If I were to press for divorce now, all those ties - emotional and financial - would have to be severed or at least severely strained. It's enough for me right now to be informally separated. I'm living most of the time elsewhere, but I can still go home on the weekends. That concern over the marriage is why I'm willing to be patient. I do miss being in love, but not the limerence part. That's torture. You should never feel like you can't live without someone else.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Marduk said:


> Sure, I think that’s the root of it - rationalization and ego protection. It’s part of how someone can do some very bad things and still think they are a good person. We all are the heroes of our own story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I know why that is (i think). When we are WITH someone, we change, adapt, certain characteristics in us become more emphasised than others, depending on who we are with. We can even adapt and change our thinking perspective (sometimes dramatically so). We don’t live in a vacuum.
Ever heard the phrase “you made me the person I never thought I could become?” That explains it for me.

OTOH: “I just want to be someone who would let me be myself”. I don’t believe this is possible. It is possible to be with someone who would ‘let you be’ but being ‘yourself’ is a bit of an illusion (because there is no ‘yourself’).

I don’t really know who I am. But I like myself when I am with person x, y or z (although z makes me become a bit of an obnoxious asshat ).

What I mean is, that the whole fog thing, is basically that. It’s like gravity; it affects both objects (subjects). It’s further influenced/enhanced by hormones (to facilitate bonding).

That’s the reason I used to get depressed because I wasn’t 100% sure that with me, my wife was the person that she wanted to be. I ache experienced other sides of her, when she was with other people (school friends etc). She is not like that with me. Most of the time, she is a mother and a wife, sometimes a lover and a woman...I try to encourage different sides but I am not capable to stimulate everything. She can never be with me like she is with her girlfriends (not of an airhead).

Same with me: there are sides of me she doesn’t really know or doesn’t see (unless I can get her to a certain frame of mind). It’s probably ok. (And it presumes that I know of all my sides...which I don’t).
Dunno if that makes sense.
But it is not so obvious to me which one is ‘fog’ and which one is ‘reality’.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

InMyPrime said:


> I know why that is (i think). When we are WITH someone, we change, adapt, certain characteristics in us become more emphasised than others, depending on who we are with. We can even adapt and change our thinking perspective (sometimes dramatically so). We don’t live in a vacuum.
> Ever heard the phrase “you made me the person I never thought I could become?” That explains it for me.
> 
> OTOH: “I just want to be someone who would let me be myself”. I don’t believe this is possible. It is possible to be with someone who would ‘let you be’ but being ‘yourself’ is a bit of an illusion (because there is no ‘yourself’).
> ...


I agree. I would add to all of that by saying that sex is more powerful than we are. Sex is hundreds of millions of years old. It’s hard wired into us for longer than we’ve been humans, longer than we’ve been mammals. 

We are animals with a thin layer of neocortex that gives us fantasies that we are more, but we’re not. All of it - including the stuff that makes us think - is there for one reason: to get laid. 

That whole engine is really good at deluding that thin layer of brain cells that getting laid makes sense, is deserved, is ethical, or is just plain worth it. 

The only real boundary is a sense of integrity.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Marduk said:


> I agree. I would add to all of that by saying that sex is more powerful than we are. Sex is hundreds of millions of years old. It’s hard wired into us for longer than we’ve been humans, longer than we’ve been mammals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You mean the drive to have sex/procreate...Yes most definitely. 
But it’s not just that...there are many other things hard wired into us that are much more powerful (and where rationalisation lags behind): survival instincts, and most things to do with procreation and ensuring passing of genes...Instincts towards offspring etc.
It’s scary, once you start taking the lid off...what is there left of ‘us’? (That we have full control over).


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

The real questions should be "How do I maintain limerence in my relationship?" "Can I control my behavior so that limerence, once waned, will return willfully?"

I say YES.....


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> You mean the drive to have sex/procreate...Yes most definitely.
> But it’s not just that...there are many other things hard wired into us that are much more powerful (and where rationalisation lags behind): survival instincts, and most things to do with procreation and ensuring passing of genes...Instincts towards offspring etc.
> *It’s scary, once you start taking the lid off...what is there left of ‘us’? (That we have full control over)*.


I agree with you.
"what is there left of ‘us’? (That we have full control over)".....our behavior and understanding of natural instincts.
There seems to be a bit of pessimism in your statement. 
We have control of who we are and how we act. "Freewill" 
To become the best one can be is to control "natural instincts" as much as we can and that's not 0%. 
You can effect another's limerence upon you, by your behavior. 
Knowing who picks who to pass their genes on with, and why....well that's the control we have.

Although we not all rock stars, I understand why rock stars get selected.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

StillSearching said:


> The real questions should be "How do I maintain limerence in my relationship?" "Can I control my behavior so that limerence, once waned, will return willfully?"
> 
> I say YES.....


Some days, the only thing that keeps me going is the belief that limeence can return to my wife. If (although I’m recently trending towards when) I give up on that, it will be tough to stay married.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> Some feel the conflict and it fades over time. Others never really feel it.
> 
> I, personally, was not very conflicted. I can best describe my own conflict as short lived, few and far between, twinges.
> 
> ...



As if the marriage institution was separated from its two persons within, I understand that.


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