# I don't know what would be the right title



## Hantei

I spent a lot of time on this forum in 2014 - only reading and not posting. Someone close to me was going through a rough patch in his marriage. Google and ye shall find. I have been reading these stories in horror but admittedly also having that "It'll never happen to me" feeling. I also couldn't for the sake of me comprehend why grown up people spend their time on the forum discussing most intimate aspects of their personal lives. I thought that is an "American" thing (I'm from Australia) - or a hiding place for hurt people. 

Yet here I am sitting at home alone in the morning 1st time in probably 5-6 years without being seek, on holidays or anything like that - just because I'm unable to go to my office, smile to my co-workers and answer "Great, thanks" to the "How are you" greeting. I don't know what am I doing here and why is it so much easier than opening up to the ones that are close to me. I guess that is what you call a drive by post?

Anyway, after 20 years of happy marriage to a women I knew from the high school (literally grew up with) I have learned a week and a half ago that she has cheated... Wrong, I should say was cheating and probably is cheating on me. I'm not sure if this a positive thing (I'm a "glass half full" person, at least I was) I have been spared weeks of doubt, suspense and paranoia. I can't honestly say I have had any doubts prior to the discovery - I should have I retrospect but being a f**g idiot I am I was oblivious until I have accidentally intercepted a voice mail that was unambiguous and could not be misinterpreted. When I exposed it to my wife... I did have an irrational hope that it is some sort of mistake; if not it didn't go all the way; if it did - that she will keep fighting for the marriage.

She did not deny it, she couldn't as the message was literally "Hi [her name], I want you to know I cannot stop thinking about you, my day is full of thoughts about our last time together, I can't even tell you how much did I enjoy every inch of your body and I'm sure I hasn't left any of it without an attention it deserve. Please call me when you can". Something like that she has deleted it.

I expected shock, tears, guilt, remorse and frantic attempts to save the marriage. I have got the 1st three for a day or two... Eventually she opened up with the following: that she is sorry she's hurt me, I'm a wonderful man and a great husband, she can't fault me and still loves me but last couple of years(? WTF) she felt chocked in the marriage. That she needs someone who is enigmatic, artistic and enlightens people around him. Who "stands up in the crowd and lives life to the fullest". She could have handled this better but what happened happened and we all need to take it from here. That was as close to the quote as I can produce ATM. She hasn’t answered my question about the divorce and does not seem to want separation but needs "time to asses who she is and what she wants". So it looks like I have been denied even a f**ng say in whether we should try to reconcile or divorce. I have left a message for a family lawyer this morning.

I don't get it - every aspect of the marriage was great or so I thought, we've had a great night out 2 days before I've got that voice mail (hers not mine), never lived from a paycheck to a paycheck, travelling together, you name it. ATM I feel more void and confusion rather than pain and anger. You know like someone suddenly pulls a chair from under you when you are about to sit down.

I just can't call relatives and friends and talk to or face them. She hasn't announced anything either AFAIK. I don't know what I'm going to say to our son (who thanks to God is overseas). I don't even know why am I posting this as all decisions and doubts have been taken from me. 

I'm 42, she is 40. Knew her since high school, been together and inseparable since then hence the early marriage.


----------



## G.J.

If you have spent a lot of time on this forum since 2014 you know shes making up her mind 

Make it for her

Suitcase with her knickers and bras in and nearest kerb and tell her to live her life to the fullest


----------



## Hope1964

If you've been hanging around for a while you should be able to find the Newbie thread? Also get STD tested. And make sure you eat enough and don't drink.

Then, you need to STOP with the attitude that you're leaving ANYTHING up to her. You haven't been denied a say in anything - you've given it away. Take control, by kicking her a$$ to the curb. She's given you the ILYBNILWY speech, which there is never any coming back from by being NICE.

You've lost yourself. You aren't able to be you without her. You need to find YOU first of all. Forget about her and forget about your marriage - she's blown it up. It's gone. Even if you stay married, it won't ever be what you had. Start deciding what YOU want and doing it. It should start with kicking her out.

I know this sounds brutal and impossible, but it's exactly what I did, and 6 years later we are together and WAY better.


----------



## G.J.

Well you'll be ok if the POS doesn't want her...lucky you


----------



## Be smart

Sorry you are here my friend.

Dont give her space,time or anything you like to call it. You need to start acting as soon as possible.Dont trust her because she already lied to you and she keep doing it.

You need to expose this to your family and close friends. Dont feel ashamed because you are not the one who destroyed this marriage.

Her actions and her words should be enough for you to know what to do. She is not sorry and she is not ready to work on your marriage. She cares only about herself and her own happines. Talk with your lawyer and see your rights my friend.

I can bet OM is her co-worker and she is talking with him about her decision what to do and how to make you accept this.

Stay strong.


----------



## 225985

Hantei, I am sorry you are here with this. Please note that although we are unknown people you will never meet, we do care about your situation and can offer help. Why? Helping you also help ourselves. 

Your wife needs "time to asses who she is and what she wants" means she wants to have sex with other man while still staying married to you. She wants both options until she decides which one she will pick. That is very very very common to see here on TAM. While you are unique, your situation is not.

What do you want? Forget what your wife wants. Once you decide that, YOU can take action to make it happen. If you do nothing, or allow your wife to make the choices, then you have lost your wife and marriage is over. If you take no positive action, your wife will only come back if the other man dumps her and you are her backup plan. Do you want that?

What do you want?


----------



## GusPolinski

180, expose, 180, file, 180, divorce, 180.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Imovedforthis

What a mess. So, is your wife not planning on ending this affair? Has she said?
I can actually understand the needing time thing. She's obviously in love with this other guy if it's coming down to this hard of a decision. 
So ya she's leaving it all in her hands.. And it's up to you whether you are cool with that or not. 
I guess if you are and want to stay married to her- you are going to need a lot more answers and total transparency from her. 
And that's if she wants to stay in the marriage. 
If you aren't cool with that then yes, start 180 now, follow up with attorney, get some money stashed and start heading towards divorce. 


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## MattMatt

> ...but needs "time to asses who she is and what she wants"


Who is she? 

She is a cheater.

What does she want? 

Lots of cake that she can keep, yet also eat at the same time.

What is she going to get?

*A divorce if she doesn't shape up.* 

I am sorry you are here, but glad you found us.

Counselling may be an option, but is generally considered of limited use if the one spouse can't stop cheating.

You need to protect your legal and financial position.

One thing you could do is seek a short consultation with all the good local lawyers. This will stop her from using them.


----------



## Hantei

Thank you very much folks,

I have not expected the responses to be so great. As I said back in 2014 I could not understand why people come here - now I do. Feels like I can talk to someone - I get (logically not emotionally - yet) the need for this to be exposed but once the genie is out of the bottle my chance of having calm and thoughtful discussion on the matter with anyone from circles are almost zero.

You asked great questions – I don’t have all answers, but for what I know having the right question is 75% of the right answer, isn’t it?

Please do not overrate the time I spent here before – I just managed to read a few of the stories that I now wanted to use as a baseline but as far as I see it mine is not typical. In these ones the wife was going to fight for the relationship, does not seem to be the case here. 

She did not say she wants to divorce me. In fact when I brought the matter up she ended up in tears. But for what I know these could be tears of relieve that the most difficult part is over. After all when I confronted her, her “I need someone else” message came with the whole list of what she was unhappy in marriage with – and it was a complete shocker. She used to tell me how happy she is in the marriage all the time, we were just planning our 1st in a while long holiday without a kiddo and she was really affectionate 5 minutes before she left a room accidentally taking my mobile with her instead of hers (our phones are absolutely identical). I don’t drink, make good money, never raised a voice in anger, etc. etc. I need to be a f**g mind reader to spot those problems early enough. It sounded like I’m smothering her “real her”. WTF?

She said this was one time, she ended it, she regrets it. For what I know for the reasons I have listed above this may be happening for a year or two and could still be in progress now. I’m not sure if there is any point of playing the detective as basic facts are undeniable. 

She said she loves me – well, let me just say I’m slightly sceptical now. What I’m saying that I’m not sure how I would have reacted if she was really remorseful and willing to undo the damage, but as this option is clearly not on the table, who am I to stay in the way of “real” her? Perhaps I don’t really know who is she really? So I don’t feel like I have a choice now, and honestly not sure if I really need and alternative. I love her – I’ll let her go. 

I’m waiting for a call from a lawyer as we speak and now – based on one of the suggestions – need to book a time with GP for STD test, Great, f**g great she is a nice old lady who has been looking after us for years. 

I don’t know who the other guy is – after all he did not introduce himself in the voice mail – undoubtedly he knew she’s going to recognise the voice. 

Thanks for listening.


----------



## BlueWoman

Hantei said:


> She said she loves me – well, let me just say I’m slightly sceptical now. What I’m saying that I’m not sure how I would have reacted if she was really remorseful and willing to undo the damage, but as this option is clearly not on the table, who am I to stay in the way of “real” her? *Perhaps I don’t really know who is she really?* So I don’t feel like I have a choice now, and honestly not sure if I really need and alternative. I love her – I’ll let her go.


I think this one of the hardest things about discovering the person you loved so much could betray you in such a way. This person who you thought you knew like no other...and it turns out that this person doesn't exist. You've got some really great advice here, and as much as it doesn't feel right...I promise you, a year from now you will not regret following the advice, but you will probably regret it if you don't follow the advice. 

So here's the thing, and this sucks, that woman you loved? She doesn't exist any more. She is completely gone. And it doesn't really matter when it happened, for you it happened the moment you found out she was having an affair. 

This new woman, you don't actually know. I know she looks like the woman you love, and she smells like the woman you love. But she's not the woman you love. 

As for why you post here...I don't think I really ever understood how amazingly painful it was to be betrayed like that until it happened to me. And to be honest, very few people in my life understand the level of hurt and anger I felt. Coming here with my grief was a relief, because there were other people who got it. At least here, I wasn't so alone. 

You are on a new path, and it is going to suck for a very long time. It won't suck forever, it will just feel like it will. 

Hang in there and I am sorry it happened. 

(Also don't "let her go." Kick her out!)


----------



## tech-novelist

Yes, there are threads where the wayward wife really wants to stay married. But that's not how they act. They are miserable and would do anything to undo what they had done.

But your wife says "it was just one time, she ended it, she regrets it" and yet she needs time to "find herself"?

No. That's not how a remorseful woman behaves. 

You need to give her her freedom and find someone who will love you.


----------



## Borntohang

First and foremost, you need to know who this guy is! Is he coworker?old boyfriend ? Without, how will know they've stopped?
Be strong! You've gonna need it!


----------



## Thound

Borntohang said:


> First and foremost, you need to know who this guy is! Is he coworker?old boyfriend ? Without, how will know they've stopped?
> Be strong! You've gonna need it!


What size boot do you wear? Is it big enough to kick her sorry azz to the curb?

I wonder how wonderful and enlightening the OM will be after 5 years having to work and support her.


----------



## aine

Hantei,

You need to get ahead of the curve on this one:

1. ask her for the full details of the OM - she must tell you
2. contact his W/GF and let them know
3. Contact all your friends and family and expose. You sound of Asian origin (from some of your writing??? - maybe I am wrong) but this is not a time to cover up and hide, affairs must be exposed in order to get WW out of the fog
4. it might be better if you get a lawyer who doesn't know your wife - find out what your options are with kicking her out of hte house. Get divorce papers ready to go
5. Tell her to move out of your bedroom - ask her to pack her stuff and move it to another room/location
6. Go and get yourself counselling to deal with your own pain/emotions/issues etc
7. Start the 180 immediately, do not discuss anything with your wife, act as if you are moving on

The whole purpose is to get you to a place where you can handle the current circumstances regardless of whether you and your WW make it. Further, the A needs to be blown up so that she is hit with the reality of what she has done. If she is not remorseful in any way, make it clear you are proceeding with divorce. Much of this is counterintuitive but you have to be prepared to lose the marriage in order to save it (that is if you actually want to when you calm down and look at things more rationally).

Sorry you find yourself here


----------



## bandit.45

As long as you allow her to think she can keep you in place while financing her wayward lifestyle and abusive behavior, she will continue to abuse you and keep,you strung out for her own selfishness. She wants to go on a journey of self discovery? Well, help her get started. Throw her sh!t in garbage bags and toss them out on the front porch. 

I'm not kidding. You need to go straight to her...today...and tell he she needs to pack her sh!t and leave. This woman is emotionally and mentally abusing you. 

The only thing that foggy, fvcked up waywards like your WW understand is ACTION. The ONLY men we have ever seen who get their cheating wives back are those men who act quickly and decisively, quite literally knocking their partner for a loop by filing for divorce and putting geographic distance between themselves and the WW. She has to understand that you are more than willing to,lose the marriage. 

Go see a lawyer this week and get the paperwork in motion. Separate your finances and cut off your joint credit cards. Expose her to family and friends. Do the 180. 

Can someone print out the 180 for this boy please?


----------



## Acoa

Hantei said:


> Thank you very much folks,
> 
> 
> 
> I have not expected the responses to be so great. As I said back in 2014 I could not understand why people come here - now I do. Feels like I can talk to someone - I get (logically not emotionally - yet) the need for this to be exposed but once the genie is out of the bottle my chance of having calm and thoughtful discussion on the matter with anyone from circles are almost zero.
> 
> 
> 
> You asked great questions – I don’t have all answers, but for what I know having the right question is 75% of the right answer, isn’t it?
> 
> 
> 
> Please do not overrate the time I spent here before – I just managed to read a few of the stories that I now wanted to use as a baseline but as far as I see it mine is not typical. In these ones the wife was going to fight for the relationship, does not seem to be the case here.
> 
> 
> 
> She did not say she wants to divorce me. In fact when I brought the matter up she ended up in tears. But for what I know these could be tears of relieve that the most difficult part is over. After all when I confronted her, her “I need someone else” message came with the whole list of what she was unhappy in marriage with – and it was a complete shocker. She used to tell me how happy she is in the marriage all the time, we were just planning our 1st in a while long holiday without a kiddo and she was really affectionate 5 minutes before she left a room accidentally taking my mobile with her instead of hers (our phones are absolutely identical). I don’t drink, make good money, never raised a voice in anger, etc. etc. I need to be a f**g mind reader to spot those problems early enough. It sounded like I’m smothering her “real her”. WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> She said this was one time, she ended it, she regrets it. For what I know for the reasons I have listed above this may be happening for a year or two and could still be in progress now. I’m not sure if there is any point of playing the detective as basic facts are undeniable.
> 
> 
> 
> She said she loves me – well, let me just say I’m slightly sceptical now. What I’m saying that I’m not sure how I would have reacted if she was really remorseful and willing to undo the damage, but as this option is clearly not on the table, who am I to stay in the way of “real” her? Perhaps I don’t really know who is she really? So I don’t feel like I have a choice now, and honestly not sure if I really need and alternative. I love her – I’ll let her go.
> 
> 
> 
> I’m waiting for a call from a lawyer as we speak and now – based on one of the suggestions – need to book a time with GP for STD test, Great, f**g great she is a nice old lady who has been looking after us for years.
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t know who the other guy is – after all he did not introduce himself in the voice mail – undoubtedly he knew she’s going to recognise the voice.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for listening.



If she never mentioned this "problem" of being smothered, then it's unfair of her to claim that's why she cheated. If anything that feeling came after she cheated, because deep down she knows she can't keep both going forever.

And she can say she loves you all she wants. They are just words she is saying to keep you disoriented and compliant to her needs. How did she demonstrate this love? By having sex with another man and then saying she did it because you are suffocating her? 

Yeah, you have a cheater and emotional manipulator on your hands. Run! Stop engaging with her, she is messing with your head. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## G.J.

bandit.45 said:


> As long as you allow her to think she can keep you in place while financing her wayward lifestyle and abusive behavior, she will continue to abuse you and keep,you strung out for her own selfishness. She wants to go on a journey of self discovery? Well, help her get started. Throw her sh!t in garbage bags and toss them out on the front porch.
> 
> I'm not kidding. You need to go straight to her...today...and tell he she needs to pack her sh!t and leave. This woman is emotionally and mentally abusing you.
> 
> The only thing that foggy, fvcked up waywards like your WW understand is ACTION. The ONLY men we have ever seen who get their cheating wives back are those men who act quickly and decisively, quite literally knocking their partner for a loop by filing for divorce and putting geographic distance between themselves and the WW. She has to understand that you are more than willing to,lose the marriage.
> 
> Go see a lawyer this week and get the paperwork in motion. Separate your finances and cut off your joint credit cards. Expose her to family and friends. Do the 180.
> 
> Can someone print out the 180 for this boy please?


In case you missed it poster


----------



## QuietSoul

Welcome fellow Aussie. 

Thanks for posting and opening up. I hope we can help you feel not so alone on what you're going through. Am sorry to hear of the circumstances that brought you here.

Wondering if you have expressed to her that you want to work through this, or asked if she would be willing to try counselling? 

What can happen in these situations is that the WS becomes so enamoured with the affair that their viewbon their marriage is distorted. So they make an assessment decoding the problems or lackings in the marriage are unable to be overcome bit they are jot making a sober decision whrnn they are still actively engaged in an affair. It's like the madness of being in love but when it's an affair it pulls the person away from you rather than toward you. 

If you are wanting to salvage the marriage, try suggesting counselling to help you both work out the next step. A counsellor can be really helpful in bringing insight and clarity.

I know of an excellent marriage counsellor here in Sydney (she is my one and I have seen many in my life and can honestly say she is excellent). She is based in sutherlandshire area and can be flexible with fees if you are in a tough spot. If you're interested, inbox me and I will send you her details.


----------



## badmemory

Hantei said:


> So it looks like I have been denied even a f**ng say in whether we should try to reconcile or divorce.


Nonsense.

Based on the fact that she cheated, *you* have to make that decision; not her. And unless or until she demonstrates unconditional, genuine remorse and a commitment to your marriage; your decision should be a simple one. Not easy, but simple.


----------



## jorgegene

"That she needs someone who is enigmatic, artistic and enlightens people around him. Who "stands up in the crowd and lives life to the fullest". She could have handled this better but what happened happened and we all need to take it from here. That was as close to the quote as I can produce ATM. She hasn’t answered my question about the divorce and does not seem to want separation but needs "time to asses who she is and what she wants".

she says this, but then in your post #10 you say she 'doesn't want a divorce'?

this is outrageous. 

she is holding you hostage over her childish midlife crisis. as the others are saying, unless you call her on it and tell her 'no dice!', she's going to continue
to abuse you. Bandit has it right: abuse.

don't put up with it.


----------



## alte Dame

Please read and implement the 180. It is hard at the beginning, but is a tool to help you gather some strength so that you can make good decisions. You need to do this. You are reacting with a broken heart. This is understandable and normal, but you are losing yourself as you deal with your pain.

Please try the 180:

The Healing Heart: The 180


----------



## bandit.45

He's from Oz? Then they have to separate for a year before they can file for divorce. He can't legally kick her out of the house, so unless she goes willingly he is screwed. He gets to watch her gets dressed up and go out to fvck other men.


----------



## tech-novelist

BTW, I think the right title would be "My wife is a cheating wh*re".


----------



## G.J.

oph


----------



## snerg

Hantei said:


> That she needs someone who is enigmatic, artistic and enlightens people around him. Who "stands up in the crowd and lives life to the fullest".


HAHA. I will say this is one of the more creative ones.

Here's what you do.

Become that enigmatic guy - kick her out. File for divorce. Go find a good, respectful, non-cheating wife, live a great life. 






Hantei said:


> She could have handled this better but what happened happened and we all need to take it from here. That was as close to the quote as I can produce ATM.


Ahh. Here's your double order $**** sammich. Enjoy it, it's still steaming hot.





Hantei said:


> She hasn’t answered my question about the divorce and does not seem to want separation but needs "time to asses who she is and what she wants". So it looks like I have been denied even a f**ng say in whether we should try to reconcile or divorce.


Wrong. No time to asses. You have all the say.

What you need to say is "get the F out of my life"!





Hantei said:


> I just can't call relatives and friends and talk to or face them. She hasn't announced anything either AFAIK. I don't know what I'm going to say to our son (who thanks to God is overseas). I don't even know why am I posting this as all decisions and doubts have been taken from me.


Why not?
What did you do wrong?
This is all on her.
She chose to cheat.
She chose to blow up your marriage.
She chose to spread her legs for someone else.
She chose to break your vows.

She now get to reap what she has sown. Let others know. Let them help you. Let them rally for you.




Hantei said:


> I get (logically not emotionally - yet) the need for this to be exposed but once the genie is out of the bottle my chance of having calm and thoughtful discussion on the matter with anyone from circles are almost zero.


She's a cheat.
She's a liar.
She's untrustworthy

You won't ever have a calm or thoughtful and most definitely truthful discussion on the matter

Forget that happy line of thought.





Hantei said:


> but as far as I see it mine is not typical.


Please stop. This circular thought will crush you.
Yours isn't unique. It is following a standard cheater script




Hantei said:


> She did not say she wants to divorce me. In fact when I brought the matter up she ended up in tears. But for what I know these could be tears of relieve that the most difficult part is over. After all when I confronted her, her “I need someone else” message came with the whole list of what she was unhappy in marriage with – and it was a complete shocker.


Typical cheater script.
She is gas lighting and marriage rewriting.
She's justifying why it was okay for her to cheat. 
Mind you, there is *NO* reason for cheating.




Hantei said:


> She said this was one time,


Let me fix that. It should read "This was the one time you caught her"



Hantei said:


> she ended it, she regrets it.


Cheat speak - throw bull schidt to see what sticks.

She regrets getting caught
Plain and simple




Hantei said:


> She said she loves me –


Bully for her. If this is what she does when she loves you, I'd really hate to see what she would do to you if she hated you.




Hantei said:


> What I’m saying that I’m not sure how I would have reacted if she was really remorseful and willing to undo the damage, but as this option is clearly not on the table, who am I to stay in the way of “real” her? Perhaps I don’t really know who is she really? So I don’t feel like I have a choice now, and honestly not sure if I really need and alternative. I love her – I’ll let her go.


You don't know who she is.
The sad part is, you never did.
Cheaters are great Chameleons. They can hide in plain sight for years. Unfortunately, they can't hide what they truly are forever and devastation follows in their wake. 




Hantei said:


> I’m waiting for a call from a lawyer as we speak and now – based on one of the suggestions – need to book a time with GP for STD test, Great, f**g great she is a nice old lady who has been looking after us for years.


1) lawyer
2) STD test
3) Read up on 180 - implement like yesterday
4) seperate finances now - don't need her spending any more of your money on her friend
5) IC for you - you need to talk with someone to help you realize that this isn't your fault
6) expose far and wide
7) DNA your kid - yes I know your kid is older and overseas - but this isn't to prove you are the father (you raised him so now matter what, you are his father) - this is to show her how much you distrust her.
8) remember, she isn't who you fell in love with. That person was a lie
9) Also remember - she's a cheat and a liar - pretty much everything that comes out of her mouth can't be trusted


----------



## BetrayedDad

Hantei said:


> She hasn’t answered my question about the divorce and does not seem to want separation but needs "time to assess who she is and what she wants". So it looks like I have been denied even a f**ng say in whether we should try to reconcile or divorce. I have left a message for a family lawyer this morning.


Here's your response:

"No problem honey. You take all the time you need to "assess" while the lawyer expedites the divorce paperwork through the court system. Do you want to keep the dining room set or would you mind if I take it?"


----------



## MarriedDude

Hantei said:


> *she needs someone who is enigmatic, artistic and enlightens people around him. Who "stands up in the crowd and lives life to the fullest"*.


Sorry you are here OP. It's like 10 pounds of sad in a five pound bag. 

She told what she thinks she wants....You can be all these things:

Enigmatic....Stop talking about your relationship...Do what you are doing with the lawyer. Speak to her only about the things that you must for day to day living. Do not appear Sad...Force yourself to be in a good mood...Go out (with friends or alone)..do things. Have fun......Trust me...she will suddenly find you quite mysterious

Artistic....Re-Arrange your room and house to suit your tastes. Go all feng shui with that.

Enlightens people around him....Your actions will "enlighten her" to her actually limited options and to your many and varied options. She will observe you being a strong, independant man not needing a woman/wife...but willing to share your adventure with the right one. You are the one with options. She has the illusion of options. 

Live life to the fullest....Do that. By doing so and not taking her crap...you will truly stand out in the crowd. 


It sounds as if she is truly unaware of the realities of her situation. You can help her in realization only indirectly...by being strong, confident and in control of your destiny. She is a passenger on your bus....just because she gets off...doesn't mean the rides ends.

Now go forth and be awesome


----------



## MattMatt

jorgegene said:


> "That she needs someone who is enigmatic, artistic and enlightens people around him. Who "stands up in the crowd and lives life to the fullest". She could have handled this better but what happened happened and we all need to take it from here. That was as close to the quote as I can produce ATM. She hasn’t answered my question about the divorce and does not seem to want separation but needs "time to asses who she is and what she wants".
> 
> she says this, but then in your post #10 you say she 'doesn't want a divorce'?
> 
> this is outrageous.
> 
> she is holding you hostage over her childish midlife crisis. as the others are saying, unless you call her on it and tell her 'no dice!', she's going to continue
> to abuse you. Bandit has it right: abuse.
> 
> don't put up with it.


By the way, This is the enigmatic and artistic soul she has found.


----------



## MarriedDude

MattMatt said:


> By the way, This is the enigmatic and artistic soul she has found.


I am an artist,,,my preferred medium is naked chicks


----------



## sidney2718

GusPolinski said:


> 180, expose, 180, file, 180, divorce, 180.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is this the Polinski 720?


----------



## MattMatt

I know Hantei will understand this one. 

Hantei's wife has found an artist. He is a p**s artist.


----------



## Be smart

She is still lying to you my friend.

This was not a "one time thing" like she said. She was telling you she needed this and wanted to keep both of you,so your answer to this is "Long Time Affair".

She didnt even tell you his name. I am sticking with my opinion that he is a co-worker so she will keep seeing him day after day. 

What is even worse it could be one of your best friends. You really need to think about this. If you dont know details about Affair then your marriage is going to fall even lower and you are going to get hurt worse.

Talk with lawyer and see your custody rights. 
Expose this-trust me she is going to blame you and talk bad things about you

She showed you once more that she is not willing to work on your marriage.

If she was truly sorry then she would give you all answers then find herself a good therapist.

Stay strong.


----------



## ing

Hi from another Aussie


balh blah. enlightment, balh blah need to find myself. blah blah.. love you.. blah. blah.. fcking blah 

Here is what I WISH i had said and if this ever goes down again will be said.

Ok. Bye.


----------



## bandit.45

ing said:


> Hi from another Aussie
> 
> 
> balh blah. enlightment, balh blah need to find myself. blah blah.. love you.. blah. blah.. fcking blah
> 
> Here is what I WISH i had said and if this ever goes down again will be said.
> 
> Ok. Bye.


Strewth!



:grin2:


----------



## Hantei

Thanks for the responses - all of them (including brief and vey straight ones are helpful). I'm likely not going to be able to respond to each of them individually, however some common points at the moment look like this:

The lawyer I want is booked till mid of March so I have an appointment with an alternative on Monday. I googled the divorce laws over here and it looks like they suck. I'm not going however to stay with her if (or I'd rather say when) we are separating - since I can't legally kick her out as it seems to be the case - I'll leave myself. I'm also trying to force myself to realise that this is a real possibility and not some bad dream so I won’t be dragging my feet for too long.

I would like to clarify the divorce discussion. I have not engaged her in a final civilized adults "that is what we do next" discussion about the divorce yet. However I brought this up multiple times since discovery as a natural reaction of a man whose wife told him she is not happy in the marriage and seems to be moving on by sleeping with another man. I did get a variety of reactions - silent tears, "I'm not sure", "If that is what you want, I understand", "I don't know what to do", which I averaged into "I don't know if I want to divorce you or not". I may be getting paranoid but I think there is a hint of relieve when I bring this up as "based on what I learned and heard from you [Wife] I think we need to start divorcing". Does it make any sense?

By stating that the decision has been taken from me I mean that I could have considered a reconciliation (I think, not sure) if there was a pure remorse, regret and commitment to save the family as it was the case in the stories I have checked so far, but I'm not going to be engaged on one-sided attempts to save the marriage if the other party is unsure. So perhaps a more appropriate definition is that all options but divorce have been taken from me.
@BlueWoman, thanks for the great post and some definitions and insights that I'm going to memorise. I don't have to be convinced to follow an advice (or at least take it into an account) - since I came here for one.
@Borntohang, all I know that he is some sort of executive salesman in a services company. I don't think there is a history (e.g. former boyfriend). Not the most artistic and enigmatic bunch if you ask me. At the moment I don't feel like I really need to know more and press her for more information as she's reluctant to give it (would be a different story if we are to reconcile). But this may change.
@aine - no I'm not Asian. My username does not reflect my ethnicity. I'm working on 4 and 7 (thanks to alte Dame who posted a link to 180), considering 6. When it comes to 5 - I moved into the guest bedroom 1 on my own on the same day when I got that voice mail. She was (acting?) surprised by the move, but once again I can't stop myself from thinking I have noticed some relieve she doesn't have to share the bed. She also stated she does not want to be in "our" bedroom alone and moved to guest bedroom 2 next night.
@Bandit. Not going to happen (I refer to your 1st paragraph post #16). And you seem to be correct (post #23)
@QuietSoul. G'day mate! No I have not expressed to her I want to work through things. She does not act like she wants it, so I'm not going solo on this journey (of reconciliation). Thanks for the MC reference. The Shire is perhaps bit too far for me but I'd go for a good MC with emphasis on the word "marriage". At the moment I feel I need to know if I have a marriage to salvage in the 1st place. So many thanks and I'll PM you when or if the time comes.
@jorgegene - please see my summary above, hope it answers that.
@MattMatt - he is not an artist, apparently he is in sales. I don't think (going through the list of people I know who may fit the description) I know him. Time will tell.

Thanks to everyone else even if I wasn't able to respond individually.


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> I would like to clarify the divorce discussion. I have not engaged her in a final civilized adults "that is what we do next" discussion about the divorce yet. However I brought this up multiple times since discovery as a natural reaction of a man whose wife told him she is not happy in the marriage and seems to be moving on by sleeping with another man. I did get a variety of reactions - silent tears, "I'm not sure", "If that is what you want, I understand", "I don't know what to do", which I averaged into "I don't know if I want to divorce you or not". I may be getting paranoid but I think there is a hint of relieve when I bring this up as "based on what I learned and heard from you [Wife] I think we need to start divorcing". Does it make any sense?


Yes that makes perfect sense. 
By saying "I don't know" she is really saying "How much will you put up with" 

It will take 12-18 months anyway from your separation and that feels like forever. 

Open a new bank account and split the money. This can count as a separation point.
Don't get lawyers involved unless you have to. The divorce can be done on line in Australia, when the time comes, and is very easy and cheap even if you do have to go to court

Just split everything in half and walk away. It will work out best for both of you

Do you have kids?


----------



## G.J.

It sucks but in the long run its best for you

You don't want a women like this in another 10 years that will be doing the same

Once trust is gone and she starts looking and feeling for another guy what other avenue is there

She may come running hard to you shortly........ if you take her back that's on you...it will be harder then 
and seem not as clear cut BUT I know where I would rather be in a years time in your situation


----------



## farsidejunky

ing said:


> Hi from another Aussie
> 
> 
> balh blah. enlightment, balh blah need to find myself. blah blah.. love you.. blah. blah.. fcking blah
> 
> Here is what I WISH i had said and if this ever goes down again will be said.
> 
> Ok. Bye.


I don't know if it's possible to like this post more.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Be smart

You did nice my friend but the problem is still there. You are trying to repair your life,marriage and even asked her direct questions about your marriage but she is not willing to work with you.

She is still seeing,texting this other man and now she is doing it with your knowledge. 

Dont beg her anymore. You did try and it didnt work. Now you look after yourself.

You know what is going to happen next my friend ? 

You will start your talks with lawyer and server her with Divorce papers. When she got them she will change her story and she will want to stay with you. Also she will start blaming you,because you work to long hours,you are never there for her and the other man was so caring and willing to listen to her.
All of this while she was sleeping with him and "Finding herself".

It is simple. No more mister Nice Guy. 

Take care my friend and best wishes to you.


----------



## Hantei

ing said:


> Yes that makes perfect sense.
> By saying "I don't know" she is really saying "How much will you put up with"
> 
> It will take 12-18 months anyway from your separation and that feels like forever.
> 
> Open a new bank account and split the money. This can count as a separation point.
> Don't get lawyers involved unless you have to. The divorce can be done on line in Australia, when the time comes, and is very easy and cheap even if you do have to go to court
> 
> Just split everything in half and walk away. It will work out best for both of you
> 
> Do you have kids?


Looks like you do know what you're talking about. I assume you've had a questionable pleasure of going thorough the process here your self. I'll do just that only I'll get an advice from a lawyer 1st but will try to avoid a messy and adversary divorce.

Yes I have a son and I'm not looking forward to the day I'll have to tell him. Not sure what custody frameworks are in place here. 

Sh**t


----------



## MattMatt

@Hantei She wanted someone "artistic" but was he an artist? No.

What does she really want? She wants the moon on a stick and a lovely carriage pulled by two pink unicorns.


----------



## ing

Yes I did go through it and I can tell you that in the court room ( yes I had to go to court) there were 26 people. 25 of them were betrayed spouses. 
It is sh1t but she wants what she wants. 


You will need a separation agreement. 

While your wife is in the new relationship fog she will be happy to give away custody of the kids. You do NOT have to involve the courts and in fact it is discouraged in Australia

This details who pays for what, when and how. This can be done by email. You can in fact Divorce by email too..
This is a good site

Write a separation agreement detailing the things mentioned in the site. It does not have to be a novel. Make is 3 month review and do it again then. Things will change in the next 3 months

It sucks but she is telling you it is over. All you can do is remove as much pain and suffering as you can. 

Your son probably already knows something is wrong. Do not wait too long


----------



## Hantei

Be smart said:


> You did nice my friend but the problem is still there. You are trying to repair your life,marriage and even asked her direct questions about your marriage but she is not willing to work with you.
> 
> She is still seeing,texting this other man and now she is doing it with your knowledge.
> 
> Dont beg her anymore. You did try and it didnt work. Now you look after yourself.
> 
> You know what is going to happen next my friend ?
> 
> You will start your talks with lawyer and server her with Divorce papers. When she got them she will change her story and she will want to stay with you. Also she will start blaming you,because you work to long hours,you are never there for her and the other man was so caring and willing to listen to her.
> All of this while she was sleeping with him and "Finding herself".
> 
> It is simple. No more mister Nice Guy.
> 
> Take care my friend and best wishes to you.


Correct, I have not begged for anything (in fact she told me she is surprised by the apparent lack of emotions and in her speech that reinforced her point about my lack of enigma) but I'm not sure how would I have reacted if she asked for reconciliation. So if I'll follow what seems to be the most common advice here (divorce and move on) it is not because I'm so mentally strong bit because that seems to be the best and only way forward. 

As for the rest (long hours, attention) - did you plant a listening device in my home?
This plus an apparent according to her lack of active social life is the most confusing part for me as I have been always encouraging this and she was more like let's spend the evening together. 

You know her being my best friend and my best mate and the person I do prefer to spend time with is not a metaphor, but we did have a bright and active social life. I don't know how much more of that she wants short of being a party girl again.


----------



## Hantei

MattMatt said:


> @Hantei She wanted someone "artistic" but was he an artist? No.
> 
> What does she really want? She wants the moon on a stick and a lovely carriage pulled by two pink unicorns.


My whole situation doesn't make any sense to me. It's all upside down.

She didn't want an artist as such as far as I can gather but some sort of a ... celebrity I guess?


----------



## Be smart

Hantei said:


> Correct, I have not begged for anything (in fact she told me she is surprised by the apparent lack of emotions and in her speech that reinforced her point about my lack of enigma) but I'm not sure how would I have reacted if she asked for reconciliation. So if I'll follow what seems to be the most common advice here (divorce and move on) it is not because I'm so mentally strong bit because that seems to be the best and only way forward.
> 
> As for the rest (long hours, attention) - did you plant a listening device in my home?
> This plus an apparent according to her lack of active social life is the most confusing part for me as I have been always encouraging this and she was more like let's spend the evening together.
> 
> You know her being my best friend and my best mate and the person I do prefer to spend time with is not a metaphor, but we did have a bright and active social life. I don't know how much more of that she wants short of being a party girl again.


It is what all cheaters do my friend. They are never to blame and they so easly put all blame on you. 
That is where things go even worse. Some of us took that blame because our mind and life is already ***..ed up and we cant see it,so our wives and husbands once more took advantage of us.

I was never married before my friend ,but last year on february I got rid of a cheating fiance and I thought my life is over. But looking now (one year smarter) I could say it was the best decision.

People are telling you to Divorce her because she is not showing any signs of remorseful and how sorry she was. She even keep doing it but she will open her eyes once she got serverd but I hope it will be to late for her.
You cant have your "fun and finding yourself" on someone others back and then just say lets work together.


----------



## Hantei

ing said:


> Yes I did go through it and I can tell you that in the court room ( yes I had to go to court) there were 26 people. 25 of them were betrayed spouses.
> It is sh1t but she wants what she wants.
> 
> 
> You will need a separation agreement.
> 
> While your wife is in the new relationship fog she will be happy to give away custody of the kids. You do NOT have to involve the courts and in fact it is discouraged in Australia
> 
> This details who pays for what, when and how. This can be done by email. You can in fact Divorce by email too..
> This is a good site
> 
> Write a separation agreement detailing the things mentioned in the site. It does not have to be a novel. Make is 3 month review and do it again then. Things will change in the next 3 months
> 
> It sucks but she is telling you it is over. All you can do is remove as much pain and suffering as you can.
> 
> Your son probably already knows something is wrong. Do not wait too long


I have saved a copy of your post. Thanks so much. No my son doesn't know as he's not at home but he will be devastated when he's told.


----------



## MJJEAN

We also do online divorce, only if uncontested, though. If the couple can agree on asset and custody matters, the online divorce saves literally thousands to tens of thousands in fees. If you can come to an agreement that is fair and file online, I highly suggest it based on my experience here in the US.

When my exH and I divorced, we agreed to visitation and the judge just ok'd it. Judges here don't much care about how visitation is set up as long as the parents involved are happy with their agreement.

Our state divorce laws require parents divorcing with minor children go to 3 counseling sessions and the law also says that a divorce cannot be granted less than 6 months after being filed. Turns out, in reality, judges waive those requirements all the time provided the couple are in agreement. If you want to get things done, it couldn't hurt to ask if waivers are a possibility.


----------



## G.J.

I'm beginning to think there should be a health warning on women 

'when reaching age 40 or there about's handle with caution

If goods are shaken may explode with messy fallout'


----------



## G.J.

ADD

Oh and one for men as well

Am I PC or what


----------



## MattMatt

He probably projects an artistic vibe, can bluff about films, art and the like.

There used to be a series of books called 'the Bluffer's Guide to...' and it covered art, film appreciation, management techniques and so on.

That's him. A bluffer. 

Your wife has blown her life for a few risky sexual encounters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AKA Broken Arrow

When my wife first confronted me with my affair, she had 2 stacks of paper. One was pages and pages of texts between me and the OW. The other was a copy of the divorce proceedings. I told her everything and we are now working towards reconciliation 3 long months later. The holidays were awful

I'm sorry to hear your story, I hope it all works out the way you want it to. Stay strong.


----------



## Redactus

G.J. said:


> I'm beginning to think there should be a health warning on women
> 
> 'when reaching age 40 or there about's handle with caution
> 
> If goods are shaken may explode with messy fallout'


LOL. From my experience, I would say the trigger point is between the ages of 33-35......


----------



## Hantei

MattMatt said:


> Your wife has blown her life for a few risky sexua encounters.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OR perhaps - and the more I think about it more it feels like a very possible outcome - she'll be with her new boyfriend living happily everafter. 

At least her behavior doesn't feel like her life is blown. .. and I can't be sure she's not seeing him right now.

I need to start getting used to it for the next couple of months. Will probably wait to my son gets back and them move out.

Should I try do find out more - like if she's still cheating or not my problem anymore?


----------



## Graywolf2

Hantei said:


> I'm 42, she is 40. Knew her since high school, been together and inseparable since then hence the early marriage.


This is classic. In fact I’ve developed a profile or list of risk factors. 
1.	Around 40
2.	Empty or about to be empty nest
3.	New job or went back to school
4.	Reconnected with old boyfriend or runs with a younger crowd
5.	Married young. Limited or no sexual experience with other men
6.	Lost weight. Has a trainer

These women want to prove that they still have it. Sometimes these women have no intention of ever leaving their husband. Your wife obviously does.

Your wife does love you but it’s like a brother. You even grew up with each other. She considers you an old friend and doesn’t want to hurt you. She values the stability and security you offer but it’s boring. 

What’s simple for you at this point is that there is only one way to go. Divorce talk will make it real for her. She’s like a monkey in that she wants to grab a new branch before she lets go of the old one. She’s not sure it the new branch will support her weight.


There is an old saying that men give attention for sex and women give sex for attention. 

*The following was written by a player.* I don’t know if her other man (OM) was a player or not and I’m not making excuses for your wife. I’m adding it to illustrate how a husband can’t compete with a new guy that is willing to expend tremendous amounts of time and energy to get into a woman’s pants.

_My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy. 
For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife. 

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons. 

1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs). 
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife. 
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy. 
The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether. 

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. 

My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score. 
Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also. 

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me. 

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them. 

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message. 

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. 

They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason. 

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day. 

I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons. 

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants. 
It was never about love, just sex. 

I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job. 

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex. 

_


----------



## tech-novelist

Hantei said:


> My whole situation doesn't make any sense to me. It's all upside down.
> 
> She didn't want an artist as such as far as I can gather but some sort of a ... celebrity I guess?


Women are attracted to celebrities. Even seemingly sensible women will often gush about very ordinary looking guys if they are famous enough.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> OR perhaps - and the more I think about it more it feels like a very possible outcome - she'll be with her new boyfriend living happily everafter.
> 
> At least her behavior doesn't feel like her life is blown. .. and I can't be sure she's not seeing him right now.
> 
> I need to start getting used to it for the next couple of months. Will probably wait to my son gets back and them move out.


That's just your one-man pity party kicking off. Ignore it.

Odds are she'll be calling you to talk about getting back together anywhere within a few weeks to a few months. Her demeanor will be anywhere between blowing-snotballs-at-your-feet-while-begging-for-another-chance and indifferent-with-a-touch-of-quiet-faux-dignity. Be prepared for that conversation.

Also be ready for her to completely flip her sh*t once she finds out that you've moved on and started dating as well.



Hantei said:


> Should I try do find out more - like if she's still cheating or not my problem anymore?


Doesn't matter at this point, IMO.

It's time for you to start detaching a bit more; to that end, familiarize yourself w/ what is commonly called "the 180".


----------



## CTPlay

Hantei,

Canada has somewhat similar laws but don't let that intimidate you. It did intimidate me but looking at it through a clear lens the one year wait period means nothing.

Contact your lawyer or lawyers and tell them you want to initiate the separation process. Start gathering your financial information and pay to have the separation agreement prepared on your end. You want to have control over this. 
Contact a real estate agent and sell your house. Notify your lawyer of course before you do this.
Sell the house, move out separated. Start healing.

When I had heard the above. It was impossible for me to comprehend. IMPOSSIBLE. I also had preschool children in the mix. 

But I did it. It was the hardest thing in my life but I did it. 

To add: I'm nothing special. I didn't have massive help. I was and is just as everyone else. It can be done. 

Godspeed. You can do this but the first step is file that separation agreement right away and get counselling.

I'm so sorry. I know what this sounds like. I really do.


----------



## Chaparral

Hantei said:


> OR perhaps - and the more I think about it more it feels like a very possible outcome - she'll be with her new boyfriend living happily everafter.
> 
> At least her behavior doesn't feel like her life is blown. .. and I can't be sure she's not seeing him right now.
> 
> I need to start getting used to it for the next couple of months. Will probably wait to my son gets back and them move out.
> 
> Should I try do find out more - like if she's still cheating or not my problem anymore?


Odds are he's married and he's just salesman looking for some a$$.

Can you look up the phone records and track his wife down?


----------



## weltschmerz

Hantei said:


> Should I try do find out more - like if she's still cheating or not my problem anymore?


Don't bother, chances are she's destroyed most of it now that you're in the know. 

I'm in your boat right now, only I haven't confronted yet. Still looking for that conclusive piece so I can throw it in her face, its wearing me down I can tell you that much. 

Life sucks. Marriage is a bloody joke, tell your son to stay far away from it. Oh and speak to a lawyer.


----------



## G.J.

There are nice loving women out there guys...its the few shvt ones that tarnish the rest

Matey you used the word confronted..yeaaa....last resort...but can be very effective


----------



## weltschmerz

G.J. said:


> There are nice loving women out there guys...its the few shvt ones that tarnish the rest
> 
> Matey you used the word confronted..yeaaa....last resort...but can be very effective


I don't doubt that there are great women. I have me mum. Its the marriage laws made up by the tossers up top that I find disgusting.


----------



## G.J.

Come the revolution brother


----------



## ing

CTPlay said:


> Hantei,
> 
> Canada has somewhat similar laws but don't let that intimidate you. It did intimidate me but looking at it through a clear lens the one year wait period means nothing.
> 
> Contact your lawyer or lawyers and tell them you want to initiate the separation process. Start gathering your financial information and pay to have the separation agreement prepared on your end. You want to have control over this.
> Contact a real estate agent and sell your house. Notify your lawyer of course before you do this.
> Sell the house, move out separated. Start healing.
> 
> When I had heard the above. It was impossible for me to comprehend. IMPOSSIBLE. I also had preschool children in the mix.
> 
> But I did it. It was the hardest thing in my life but I did it.
> 
> To add: I'm nothing special. I didn't have massive help. I was and is just as everyone else. It can be done.
> 
> Godspeed. You can do this but the first step is file that separation agreement right away and get counselling.
> 
> I'm so sorry. I know what this sounds like. I really do.


Dude.. nice to see you


----------



## ing

oh.. we do understand the enormous pain you are in. We totally get the feeling. Try to remember to eat and something I forgot before.
DO NOT MOVE OUT OF THE HOUSE

It can actually be a pivot point.

" If you want to continue this affair I think it is only fair that you move out to do it"


----------



## JohnA

You mentioned the two of you hav identical phones. Do you get one bill ? Can you get access to the bill that number will show up on? 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html. Review this link. 


Do not let your WW's action define you. Let your response define you.


----------



## MattMatt

OM may be a Knight In Shining Armour saving the poor damsel In distress from the evil ogre. Which would be you in the drama she has written.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator

*@Hantei ~ Sorry to see you here, but you were coveniently and covertly around as her "Plan A," and now that her affair has escalated to where it is, are in her dispensable category!

Immediately "180" her and move on! She has more than exhibited her true colors!

Expose her, and get yourself tested for the presence of STD's! Then see a lawyer ASAP to assess your legal rights!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sparrow555

Maybe shame of the consequences/exposure is the only thing stopping her from leaving you..One way to find out. 

Exposure as in telling her family and yours. 

She had the nerve to tell you that she wants "*someone who is enigmatic, artistic and enlightens people around him.*"

Enlighten the people around you and her. That is what she wants. Be artistic in how you do it and make her heart race once again, but just not the way she expects.

And once you file for divorce, become enigmatic. The punchlines are almost writing themselves.


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> Thanks for the responses - all of them (including brief and vey straight ones are helpful). I'm likely not going to be able to respond to each of them individually, however some common points at the moment look like this:
> 
> The lawyer I want is booked till mid of March so I have an appointment with an alternative on Monday. I googled the divorce laws over here and it looks like they suck. I'm not going however to stay with her if (or I'd rather say when) we are separating - since I can't legally kick her out as it seems to be the case - I'll leave myself. I'm also trying to force myself to realise that this is a real possibility and not some bad dream so I won’t be dragging my feet for too long.
> 
> I would like to clarify the divorce discussion. I have not engaged her in a final civilized adults "that is what we do next" discussion about the divorce yet. However I brought this up multiple times since discovery as a natural reaction of a man whose wife told him she is not happy in the marriage and seems to be moving on by sleeping with another man. I did get a variety of reactions - silent tears, "I'm not sure", "If that is what you want, I understand", "I don't know what to do", which I averaged into "I don't know if I want to divorce you or not". I may be getting paranoid but I think there is a hint of relieve when I bring this up as "based on what I learned and heard from you [Wife] I think we need to start divorcing". Does it make any sense?
> 
> By stating that the decision has been taken from me I mean that I could have considered a reconciliation (I think, not sure) if there was a pure remorse, regret and commitment to save the family as it was the case in the stories I have checked so far, but I'm not going to be engaged on one-sided attempts to save the marriage if the other party is unsure. So perhaps a more appropriate definition is that all options but divorce have been taken from me.
> 
> @BlueWoman, thanks for the great post and some definitions and insights that I'm going to memorise. I don't have to be convinced to follow an advice (or at least take it into an account) - since I came here for one.
> 
> @Borntohang, all I know that he is some sort of executive salesman in a services company. I don't think there is a history (e.g. former boyfriend). Not the most artistic and enigmatic bunch if you ask me. At the moment I don't feel like I really need to know more and press her for more information as she's reluctant to give it (would be a different story if we are to reconcile). But this may change.
> 
> @aine - no I'm not Asian. My username does not reflect my ethnicity. I'm working on 4 and 7 (thanks to alte Dame who posted a link to 180), considering 6. When it comes to 5 - I moved into the guest bedroom 1 on my own on the same day when I got that voice mail. She was (acting?) surprised by the move, but once again I can't stop myself from thinking I have noticed some relieve she doesn't have to share the bed. She also stated she does not want to be in "our" bedroom alone and moved to guest bedroom 2 next night.
> 
> @Bandit. Not going to happen (I refer to your 1st paragraph post #16). And you seem to be correct (post #23)
> 
> @QuietSoul. G'day mate! No I have not expressed to her I want to work through things. She does not act like she wants it, so I'm not going solo on this journey (of reconciliation). Thanks for the MC reference. The Shire is perhaps bit too far for me but I'd go for a good MC with emphasis on the word "marriage". At the moment I feel I need to know if I have a marriage to salvage in the 1st place. So many thanks and I'll PM you when or if the time comes.
> 
> @jorgegene - please see my summary above, hope it answers that.
> 
> @MattMatt - he is not an artist, apparently he is in sales. I don't think (going through the list of people I know who may fit the description) I know him. Time will tell.
> 
> Thanks to everyone else even if I wasn't able to respond individually.



Fear, self doubt, fear, hesitation.




> in her speech that reinforced her point about my lack of enigma


A cheater will tell you anything to justify her sh!tty actions. It does not matter if it is truth or not, whether it humiliates you or anything. It is put her mind in a justified state. If she actually said that, she must have been unnerved by your lack of response ? I mean, what did she expect ? Falling on her feet begging that you will be creative and artistic ?


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> OR perhaps - and the more I think about it more it feels like a very possible outcome - she'll be with her new boyfriend living happily everafter.
> 
> 
> 
> At least her behavior doesn't feel like her life is blown. .. and I can't be sure she's not seeing him right now.
> 
> 
> 
> I need to start getting used to it for the next couple of months. Will probably wait to my son gets back and them move out.
> 
> 
> 
> Should I try do find out more - like if she's still cheating or not my problem anymore?



She is still seeing him right now.

Cheaters don't change without consequences and until then, it's still active. It may be underground for a bit, but it's active.

The truth is all on her mobile device if you can get your hands on it.


----------



## edwardpresto

She left you hanging and you are the one confused whether you were cheated or not. It's ok because that is normally the feeling when you doesn't expect that the one you love will cheat on you.

Gather your thoughts and senses. Balance everything and see if she's worth your forgiveness or not.

Be strong you can surpass it.


----------



## aine

This is classic. In fact I’ve developed a profile or list of risk factors. 
1.	Around 40
2.	Empty or about to be empty nest
3.	New job or went back to school
4.	Reconnected with old boyfriend or runs with a younger crowd
5.	Married young. Limited or no sexual experience with other men
6.	Lost weight. Has a trainer

i fit 5 out of 6 of these but have no intention of cheating. it is normal when your kids grow up that you turn attention to yourself as the H is usually still engrossed in whatever took his time before, i.e. work, golf, hobbies etc. So unless you make all women whose kids have left stay locked up in the house as housewives it is almost certain they will do something such as go back to school, work, lose weight etc as they have time to focus on themselves. I think you should add another factor

7. a husband who has for the most part been neglectful and preoccupied with other matters for most of the marriage (unless when he wants to be fed or have sex)


----------



## BetrayedDad

Hantei said:


> I don't know how much more of that she wants short of being a party girl again.


A wise man once said, "You can't turn a ho into a housewife..."

Some women are very much into settling down into a committed relationship, raising a family and being a mother / wife. Your wife is the other kind of girl. Immature, insecure, needs constant attention and validation of others, wants to be "cool", etc. 

These are your pump and dump bimbos. You married a dud my friend. Let me guess, she never wanted kids, insists on living in an urban area, is full of drama with other people, wants to travel constantly, dresses younger than she is, etc. 

That was the bad news. The good news is so far I think you are handling this VERY well. You're doing all the right things. You gotta follow through with getting rid of her unfortunately. She's just not marriage material. Period. She will betray you again even if this OM dumps her.

Eventually she will "tire" of her new lifestyle of slooting around. She will "want" her life back. She will never want you though. Just the security you provide. DON'T be plan B. When she comes crawling back have your new hot girlfriend tell her to fvck off.


----------



## G.J.

aine said:


> This is classic. In fact I’ve developed a profile or list of risk factors.
> 1.	Around 40
> 2.	Empty or about to be empty nest
> 3.	New job or went back to school
> 4.	Reconnected with old boyfriend or runs with a younger crowd
> 5.	Married young. Limited or no sexual experience with other men
> 6.	Lost weight. Has a trainer
> 
> *i fit 5 out of 6 of these* but have no intention of cheating. it is normal when your kids grow up that you turn attention to yourself as the H is usually still engrossed in whatever took his time before, i.e. work, golf, hobbies etc. So unless you make all women whose kids have left stay locked up in the house as housewives it is almost certain they will do something such as go back to school, work, lose weight etc as they have time to focus on themselves. I think you should add another factor
> 
> 7. a husband who has for the most part been neglectful and preoccupied with other matters for most of the marriage (unless when he wants to be fed or have sex)


Your stickers in the post then 

'when reaching age 40 or there about's handle with caution

If goods are shaken may explode with messy fallout'


----------



## Graywolf2

Graywolf2 said:


> This is classic. In fact I’ve developed a profile or list of risk factors.
> 1.	Around 40
> 2.	Empty or about to be empty nest
> 3.	New job or went back to school
> 4.	Reconnected with old boyfriend or runs with a younger crowd
> 5.	Married young. Limited or no sexual experience with other men
> 6.	Lost weight. Has a trainer





aine said:


> i fit 5 out of 6 of these but have no intention of cheating. it is normal when your kids grow up that you turn attention to yourself as the H is usually still engrossed in whatever took his time before, i.e. work, golf, hobbies etc. So unless you make all women whose kids have left stay locked up in the house as housewives it is almost certain they will do something such as go back to school, work, lose weight etc as they have time to focus on themselves. I think you should add another factor
> 
> 7. a husband who has for the most part been neglectful and preoccupied with other matters for most of the marriage (unless when he wants to be fed or have sex)


I agree. My profile is a warning for husbands to keep their eyes open and maybe step up their game. My previous post also included a player describing how to seduce married women. It’s good for husbands to read to get an idea of how to treat their wife. I did and it worked great. 

Attention = happy wife. Happy wife = sex.:grin2:


----------



## Hantei

JohnA said:


> You mentioned the two of you hav identical phones. Do you get one bill ? Can you get access to the bill that number will show up on?
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html. Review this link.
> 
> 
> Do not let your WW's action define you. Let your response define you.


How could I have missed that. All phones are on a family plan, one owner, shared Internet allowance. Just got to the office and downloaded all in excel. Plethora of call to a from a certain mobile number with sharp decrease (but still quite a few) after the discovery day. Also a huge increase in Internet traffic. 

Thanks to everyone else who responded, but I'm not in a position to respond individually ATM.


----------



## badmemory

Hantei said:


> Just got to the office and downloaded all in excel. Plethora of call to a from a certain mobile number with sharp decrease (but still quite a few) after the discovery day. Also a huge increase in Internet traffic.


Bingo. Hopefully the other phone is not a burner phone.

Make sure you notice the times of day. First thing in the morning, end of the work day, and just before bed time - would be typical for a cheater. Also times when you're not there at home with her.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> How could I have missed that. All phones are on a family plan, one owner, shared Internet allowance. Just got to the office and downloaded all in excel. Plethora of call to a from a certain mobile number with sharp decrease (but still quite a few) after the discovery day. Also a huge increase in Internet traffic.
> 
> Thanks to everyone else who responded, but I'm not in a position to respond individually ATM.


She's likely moved from traditional talking and texting to using apps to communicate... and that's even if she's still talking and texting.

For example, she could be using Skype or FaceTime to talk and WhatsApp or SnapChat to text.

But hey, at least you have the guy's number now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Don't forget lunch time,

But so what. You know what's what. Her actions do not define you, your actions going forward will. Regardless exposure is a must 


Exposure *101

Exposure 101*

Exposure is simply your most powerful weapon against an affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposure can be ruinous. Exposure is no guarantee, but it is your best bet at killing the affair and making it possible to save your marriage. YES, we know your spouse will be furious, but the goal is to save your marriage, not to avoid your wayward spouse's anger at all cost. Your marriage can survive his/her temporary anger; it cannot survive an ongoing affair. Read up on why exposure is so effective: When Should an Affair Be Exposed?*

Originally Posted By: Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."


Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
"The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is."


Dr Harley tells a betrayed husband he is an "enabler" for not exposing his wife's affair: radio clip*

Dr Harley tells BTinTrouble to "expose the heck out of his wife's affair" [exposure saved their marriage, btw] radio clip here*

Exposure targets
Parents of all concerned, family, close friends, children of the BS, workplace [if a workplace affair], spouse of the affair partner, pastor. Facebook friends of affair partner.*

Exposure Timing
Exposure should be done immediately. The longer you wait, the more entrenched the affair becomes. There is never any “perfect” time to expose, so don’t delay while looking for an imaginary perfect time.*

Expose on the SAME DAY – or as close as possible – in order to achieve a tsunami effect. The affairees should be completely taken by surprise. Doing this creates a powerful hit on the affair and prevents the affairees from pre-empting you

Exposure Tactics

Spouse of affair partner- Give your full name, phone # and email address. Tell the other BS all about the affair, offer to share all evidence with him/her. Offer to follow up to ensure that contact is truly ended and ask the other BS to do the same. The other BS will be shocked when you tell him, so be sure and give your email address and phone # for follow up questions. ALWAYS GIVE THE OTHER BS YOUR WS'S PHONE # IN CASE HE/SHE WANTS TO CALL.*

Parents, close family, friends – Tell them about the affair, giving them names, general timelines, etc. Explain you are attempting to save your marriage and would be willing to forgive your WS if he/she ended the affair. Ask them to use their influence to persuade the WS to end her affair. A way to save time is to call both sets of parents and send an email to the other close family and friends. Template letter posted below

Parents of affair partner. Give your full name and explain why you are calling. Ask them to use their influence with their son/daughter to persuade them to leave your spouse alone. It might also help if the PARENT of the WS calls them too.*

Workplace exposure: Expose to Director of Human Resources, a key VP and both of the affairee’s supervisors using the template letter posted below.

Facebook exposure: Should be done to the affair partner’s facebook friends via private message. This is a very, very effective exposure because it is a collection of the AP’s closest friends and family. SPACE THE PM’S OUT 60 SECONDS APART SO FB DOES NOT SHUT YOU DOWN FOR FLOODING. Before you begin, copy and paste all the contacts into a WORD doc. Change your fb picture to a picture of you and your spouse and children. Template letters posted below.


Send the Evidence! Provide the evidence via email to your exposure targets. One ideal way to do this is to start up a website, upload your evidence and send out the link to everyone. This prevents the WS from denying there is an affair.

The Fallout
Expect your spouse to be FURIOUS and to make all manner of threats, “I was going to work on the marriage, now I am not!!” “I cannot trust you” “You have to pack and leave!!” “You have ruined any chance you had!!” Do not let this bother you!! Just imagine that you have taken the crackpipe away from the crack head. Of course they are angry. But it will blow over. Don’t laugh, don’t fight, don't attempt to reason with them, and most of all, don’t be SCARED! Your marriage can survive some temporary anger, it cannot survive an ongoing affair! The madder your WS, the harder you hit the target!*

The goal is to save your marriage, NOT to avoid your wayward spouse's anger at all costs.

Just say, "I am so sorry you are upset.. Can I get you a potato chip?" *

Common Exposure Mistakes

Telling the WS that you got the idea to expose on the internet rather than taking ownership of your actions. Then the discussion becomes “who???” When the WS is told it was Marriage Builders, the WS is forever jaundiced against Marriage Builders, which harms future recovery chances. You need to OWN IT. Saying somebody told you to do it does not work for 5 year olds and it won’t work for you!

Keeping exposure a secret. Yes, you read right. But we have had exposure targets say “ok, I will keep this a secret!!” And they never tell the WS they know. That defeats the entire purpose. If that person won’t help you by speaking to your WS, at least TELL the WS that person knows.*

Doing trickle exposures. Meaning exposing to just a few people but not to everyone that could have an influence. Trickle exposures are a disaster because they are not enough to kill the affair but just enough to infuriate the WS enough to come after the BS. So the exposure essentially only served to beat down the already beaten BS for no benefit.

Eliminating exposure targets because that person “has no influence over my WS” even though this is a person with long history over the WS. Such as a mother or father. Such targets cannot be dismissed on such a subjective basis because the BS CANNOT PREDICT WHO WILL OR WON’T HAVE AN INFLUENCE OVER THE WS. Sorry, but unless you are psychic and your name is Madame Cleo, you don’t know. Many WS are estranged from a parent, sibling, pastor but that is not a knock out factor.*

Threatening to expose. Using exposure as a threat only serves to forewarn the affairees and cause them to go further underground. All you have achieved is to give the enemy your battle plan so they can come back and kick your rear tomorrow. It also gives them an opportunity to pre-empt you and tell others you are “crazy” “jealous”. Then then when you do expose no one will take you seriously. Threatening to expose is the equivalent of giving your battle plan to the enemy. Don't do that!

Deleting or throwing away evidence after the affair is killed. DO NOT DO THIS! You will need this in case the affair starts up again or if you get divorced. Yes, we know you don't want to be triggered. Fine. Then bag up the evidence and put it somewhere for safekeeping. Do not throw it away!

This is from mb here is the link. Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon - Marriage Builders® Forums


----------



## MattMatt

GusPolinski said:


> She's likely moved from traditional talking and texting to using apps to communicate... and that's even if she's still talking and texting.
> 
> For example, she could be using Skype or FaceTime to talk and WhatsApp or SnapChat to text.
> 
> But hey, at least you have the guy's number now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or on a pro-cheater website, perhaps, getting trained in covert adultery techniques?


----------



## Gabriel

Graywolf2 said:


> These women want to prove that they still have it. Sometimes these women have no intention of ever leaving their husband. Your wife obviously does.
> 
> Your wife does love you but it’s like a brother. You even grew up with each other. She considers you an old friend and doesn’t want to hurt you. She values the stability and security you offer but it’s boring.
> 
> What’s simple for you at this point is that there is only one way to go. Divorce talk will make it real for her. She’s like a monkey in that she wants to grab a new branch before she lets go of the old one. She’s not sure it the new branch will support her weight.
> 
> 
> There is an old saying that men give attention for sex and women give sex for attention.


This is really good stuff right here. It's clearly what happened.

And this is why you cut off your branch. If the other one can support her weight (and usually it cannot), she holds onto it and you know that you were certainly Plan B. If the other one snaps and she falls, she'll come crawling back to you, sobbing, snots bubbling out of her nose, on her knees, begging for your forgiveness. And at THAT point, you have all control of what happens next.


----------



## TX-SC

Even if she decided she wants you, would you still want her? It sounds like you are working on getting an attorney, so that's a good step. Just go ahead and file. Take the decision away from her and stand on your own feet.


----------



## Hantei

@Graywolf2, @Gabriel - this is scarily close to the reality I'm afraid. All of 3 paragraphs. I'm saying that because the number was not a burner phone, and using only the information available to the public I have managed to learn a bit about this guy. And - I don't have any reason to lie to myself - looks like the only differentiator that could lead a happily (as per her own words) married women and mother to sleep with that guy is a simple fact that he is not me.

Basically he is some sort of salesman however unlike what wife's told me before (not a lot I should say) he does not work for any of the blue chip/multinationals. Looks like he is either solo/on commission/one-man business or part of a small business. So if he's lucky he is in the same income band as I am. He's definitely no younger or fitter than I am (looks older), married or in a relationship with at least one kid and looks like that typical salesman that tries to sell you that miracle workout device over the free air TV channel when you get a free DVD if you call within next 24 hours. He could very well be a prince charming when you are in the same room with him, but I don't know that.
What gets me totally confused is the fact that I cannot think about any way my wife could cross paths with him. No common friends, no work-related interactions, nothing. Total stranger to me yet he has bedded her.

I also think she's is getting ready to move on - with our without him. Nothing specific, just her MO and mood in general. Feels like she did not want to declare this on her own (e.g. to initiate a separation) but since I'm going down that path she seems to be playing along. Calls have been stopped but she could use any other way of communications available - social media, messaging apps, whatever. I don't see any opportunity for her to see him in person these days - at the same time I have been fooled about this anyway so who knows. Definitely no remorse and any desire to fight for the marriage. In terms of moving on - don't know if she's planning to do it with him (feels like it) or not- in any case she works; that job alone could not sustain her (definitely not the lifestyle of a comparable level) but her parents are doing well and she is really close to them so she'll be alright in any case.
One more thing - working on exposure (don't feel like it but why not be ready if I can) I have not told her all the details I know but in a moment of anger I let her know I have his name (in a context of "I wonder if he [name] would be able to maintain his charisma if we are to meet face to face"). Guess what - she jumped to his defence asking me not to do "anything stupid". Of course she claims this is to protect me from legal troubles but I'm finding this hard to believe.

I opened a new savings account and new credit card on Friday and will start transferring funds, income and recurring payments to these today.


----------



## JohnA

The truth is she is in the fog right now. People in the fog are capable of things you would never expect. Don't say they will never, they already did when they jumped in the sack with the other person. If I have not posted before embrace the 180. The 180 is to help you detach, not get her back. She may try to come back but that is an occasional by product. 


Liove shack 180*


There continue to be more and more arrivals to our LS section on Divorce and Separation. Often, I find myself technically challenged when it comes to citing links, or just general recall sometimes. As well, I many times repeat my reading advice to posters. As a contributor to this section, I thought it might be useful to us and our newcomers to get all of our reading materials in one place, rather than citing and re-citing.

Perhaps others will join me in posting helpful relevant material and cites -- on this new thread I am trying to begin. Can some please post the most current "No Contact" draft that is available so it will come up in the second post of the thread?*

Theefore, please of our find our most popular reference below:*

THE 180's:

180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. I am convinced that if I had implemented them, I would still be married. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. (Making it)*

So here's the list:*
Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
No frequent phone calls.
Don't point out "good points" in marriage.
Don't follow her/him around the house.
Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.
Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS.
Don't ask for reassurances.
Don't buy or give gifts.
Don't schedule dates together.
Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.
Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!
Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.
Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!
When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!
If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.
Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them!
Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.
No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.
All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!
Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!
Don't be overly enthusiastic.
Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!
Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!
Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.
Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.
Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.
Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.
Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!
Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.
Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"
Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.
When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW."

Here is the link Critical Readings For Separation and Divorce - LoveShack.org Community Forums


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> Basically he is some sort of salesman however unlike what wife's told me before (not a lot I should say) he does not work for any of the blue chip/multinationals. Looks like he is either solo/on commission/one-man business or part of a small business. So if he's lucky he is in the same income band as I am. He's definitely no younger or fitter than I am (looks older), married or in a relationship with at least one kid and looks like that typical salesman that tries to sell you that miracle workout device over the free air TV channel when you get a free DVD if you call within next 24 hours. He could very well be a prince charming when you are in the same room with him, but I don't know that.
> What gets me totally confused is the fact that I cannot think about any way my wife could cross paths with him. No common friends, no work-related interactions, nothing. Total stranger to me yet he has bedded her.


She made a concious decision to do this. Who it is with is not really relevant in terms of your relationship. It is all on her. 



Hantei said:


> I also think she's is getting ready to move on - with our without him. Nothing specific, just her MO and mood in general. Feels like she did not want to declare this on her own (e.g. to initiate a separation) but since I'm going down that path she seems to be playing along. Calls have been stopped but she could use any other way of communications available - social media, messaging apps, whatever. I don't see any opportunity for her to see him in person these days - at the same time I have been fooled about this anyway so who knows. Definitely no remorse and any desire to fight for the marriage. In terms of moving on - don't know if she's planning to do it with him (feels like it) or not- in any case she works; that job alone could not sustain her (definitely not the lifestyle of a comparable level) but her parents are doing well and she is really close to them so she'll be alright in any case.


I imagine you are seeing contempt in her eyes. That is awful.
She has already replaced you. You were just not informed of it





Hantei said:


> One more thing - working on exposure (don't feel like it but why not be ready if I can) I have not told her all the details I know but in a moment of anger I let her know I have his name (in a context of "I wonder if he [name] would be able to maintain his charisma if we are to meet face to face"). Guess what - she jumped to his defence asking me not to do "anything stupid". Of course she claims this is to protect me from legal troubles but I'm finding this hard to believe.


Expose him to his wife (if you can find her). She has a right to know. My Ex fell for the same salesman type who also threatened me ( her) with legal action if I contacted anyone. 
It took me a long time to find his wife but it was well worth it. This guy needs a reality check. Your wife needs a reality check. If you you can tell his wife as soon as possible.
It is quiet the spectacle when you do. Just stand back and watch the sh1tstorm




Hantei said:


> I opened a new savings account and new credit card on Friday and will start transferring funds, income and recurring payments to these today.


This may not feel like it but it is a positive step. It is you reclaiming your life


----------



## JohnA

You also need to revise your will to name your son as your heir. 

Get that exposure done now! The longer he is involved with your wife the more entitled and the greater her demands become. They are feeding of each other telling each other how much the deserve. F-102 wrote a post to show how an E/A starts which in your wife's most likely occurred before the P/A here is the link http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/41508-emotional-affairs-sob-story.html

Also @marduk has a great how to guide 
A strategy*

Author: MEM
Editor: Marduk

If you are reading this it's because the most important person in the world - betrayed you. Sorry you're here. The good news is that you are the product of thousands of generations of clever, resourceful, tough ancestors who navigated flood, famine and ice age and consequently much stronger than you realize. You might love and want your partner, but you don't need them. Accept that and allow it to inform your actions to maximize your outcome. Conversely, choose to believe and act as if you need your spouse, and bring your worst fears to fruition. Love is your friend, need and neediness are your enemy.*

From the point of discovery forward you ought to focus on regaining your emotional equilibrium. It's hard to do because you naturally feel disoriented. Your primary human anchor just pulled up. Pick a trusted friend with a balanced view of your marriage and talk to them. Exercise is critical. Sleep may be tough. Catch up on weekends if possible. Try to prioritize this stuff until you've gotten through the worst of the disorientation. Avoid alcohol, drugs and opposite sex entanglements.

With that as prelude, the guidelines below are intended to help you navigate the Rapids:
- Assess the overall marriage
- Confirm that your spouse feels the same way
- Execute either an ALL IN reconciliation or the cleanest possible extraction from the marriage

I'm going to write this gender neutral - with one exception. Physical intimidation is not only maritally toxic - it may come back to bite you hard in family court. Pretend your spouse is recording, nay videotaping every conversation.*

Assessment: The goal is to search your soul and/or your gut to decide whether you think the marriage worth saving. Might help you to ask yourself some tough questions. Thing is, most folks feel some amount of love when they marry. And love is a beautiful thing. But for the long game, and marriage is the ultimate long game - compatibility rules. Love sans compatibility is the worst pairing of all. Virtually guarantees unhappiness. No oath, no vow will stop an unhappy person from cheating - either via a continuation of the affair or a brand new one. So roll back to just before you 'think' the affair started and answer the following queries.*

1. From that vantage if you could choose all over again, would you marry this person?*
2. How would your partner answer that question had they been asked it pre-affair?
3. Do/did you love each other?
4. Are you compatible?*
5. How much did my spouse accept and/or seek my company?
6. My non sexual touch
7. Sex*
8. Overall did they do a good job of making me feel loved/important?
9. Did I do a good job of making them feel loved/important?
10. Was your partner overall trustworthy, reliable and focused on you? 11. Or did they have a wandering eye, a flirtatious posture towards others.*
12. Did they let you marry them, or want to marry you?*
13. Do they feel sick about betraying you?
14. Or only sick they have been caught?
15. Or only sick at the prospect of being exposed to friends/family?
16. Or only sick at the thought of having to end the affair?*
17. Have they cheated on prior partners?*

After answering those questions you ought to have a good feel about recon or divorce.*

If you want to reconcile, it is time to discover what your partner wants.*
1. Do they want to stay married/try and reconcile?
2. Why did they cheat?*
3. What are they willing to DO to rebuild trust and heal?
4. Write a no contact letter?
5. Make a no contact call in your presence?
6. End the affair without one last get together for closure?
7. Provide transparency via phones and passwords etc?
8. Resume (if the affair interrupted it) a normal sex life with you?
9. Provide you with whatever details you want including a timeline of the affair?
10. Transfer departments or change employers entirely if their AP is from work?*
11. Take a test for STDs
12. Take a pregnancy test

Regarding (2), listen carefully. Might learn stuff ends up improving your marriage. The responses to (2) range from: we had a good marriage and I behaved selfishly and that is entirely on me. To you are the worst spouse since Henry the eighth and that is the ONLY reason I cheated. What they say might however, have real merit. For instance: you stopped sleeping with me years ago, or you consistently rejected my requests to spend time together. If you were the primary cause of a weak marriage, you need to decide if you can fix it. And you should acknowledge that and commit to fixing it.*

Confirmation: This phase is mostly about observable behavior. Words and in this case vows - are cheap. Actions WILL confirm or contradict your assessment. Is their primary emotion remorse or resentment. The stuff they committed to doing up above - are they doing it without pressure. Or is it you dragging them along. Considerate and kind about your heightened anxiety level? Or accusing you of being controlling?*

Execution: If you've both decided to try to recon, it's critical to accept the following:*
1. The more needy you seem, the less lovable you will be. This is every bit as unfair as it is true.*
2. People use the following phrase all the time: I was crying and begging them to stay
3. Crying is ok. It's about the loss of something you prized. It shows love.
4. Begging may be the single most toxic thing a betrayed spouse typically does. Crying means: You love them and are sad at the thought of losing them. Begging means you don't love yourself very much.*
5. If their affair partner is married or living with someone, you ought to contact that person and let them know what's been happening. There are several benefits to that, the best one is this. If your spouse has truly committed to NC, won't be a big deal. If they are still prioritizing their AP, you will get an angry reaction.*
6. If their AP is a coworker they frequently interact with, that's an inherently difficult situation. The focus should be on their prioritizing a transfer/company change.
7. Your perception of time is now different. Before Dday - you likely weren't nearly as impacted if they were running a bit late and didn't call. When it happens after Dday, you feel a lot more anxious. Thing is, if you call or text them every time they are officially one minute late, they will love you less. Doesn't mean you ought to be a doormat. If they are routinely way late without a call - that is a very bad sign. At minimum it means they are comfortable knowingly causing you intense distress.
8. Sex is a great litmus test for whether the recon is genuine. A WS who, upon discovery abandons, or continues to abandon the marital bed, is likely insincere.
9. Some folks advocate a zero tolerance shock and awe approach to demanding they stop the affair. This is a: choose right now one way or the other approach.*
10. Others are willing to compete with the AP over a period of time when faced with a WS who openly refuses to stop the affair. This is more likely a good strategy if you believe your pre-affair conduct was a significant contributor to the affair and want your spouse to see the 'new and improved' you before insisting they choose. And in some cases, this approach results in their choosing to end it of their own free will. Most folks find this competition period intensely stressful. If your partner is either selfish or has weak character, they will string this out as long as you allow. And will constantly move the goal posts for what you must do to win them back. This path MUST have a bright line end date.*
11. There are many paths to successful recon. However, a partner who continues a sexual relationship with their AP, while refusing to sleep with you, rarely reconciles. They tend to totally lose respect for you for tolerating it.*
12. Last but not least. You may be tempted to employ some extreme tactics in an effort to recon. These include your use of third parties either to advise of shame your partner. See examples below.*

Option 1: Attempting to cripple your partner so they CAN'T leave. If you go this route, eventually everyone you know will know that - you've turned into a psychopath - including your children and the family court judge. Good luck with that.*

BS: I just called the last of our friends and family and sent an email out to them as well. I told them what you did to me and the children. And asked them to contact you and tell you how wrong it is to destroy our family for a few cheap fvcks. I also contacted your employer and made a big fuss. I think they're going to fire you. And when I spoke to your AP's spouse, they told me they are going to try and work it out with your AP. And I also called the minister at our church. So go ahead and divorce me. Just know that you have no friends, your family is on my side, you will shortly be unemployed, you are unwelcome at our church and your AP is likely going to dump you. One last thing, I told the kids too. They were spitting mad.

Option 2: AKA - the voice of reason approach
BS: Picks one person who knows and loves their WS. Swears that person to secrecy and asks them to reach out to the WS and try and support them through the fog. The message to the friend is short and practical. I believe we had a good marriage and can recover. WS is lost in the fog. If you believe WS will end up regretting a divorce, maybe you can support me in helping them navigate out of the fog.*

Obviously there are many points on the spectrum between option 1 and option 2. A small modification to option 2 is to disclose to the partner of your spouse's AP. That person is in the same boat you are. That's actually a very effective step.


----------



## JohnA

Do not leave the home. She leaves !!!!!!


----------



## Sports Fan

As a fellow aussie myself. Mate i'm truly sorry. It is vital that you seperate all joint bank accounts without telling her. Book an appoitment with a good family law firm find out your rights and take it from there.

From someone that has been through this and knows the family law system pretty well due to my employment she will most probably try for single parent payment. You do not move out of the family home and you contest with centrelink that you are in fact looking after the children yourself. This will not immediately enable her to get Family Tax benefit for any kids to herself as Centrelink will investigate first.

If reconcilation is your main goal you need to make this as difficult for her as possible. Also do not agree to pay any form of private childcare arrangement. I have seen plenty of mothers go back on their word then you will have to repay the proper amount even if you have agreed to something more than you shuld be paying.

In fact no child support whilst you are still living in the house and providing for the kids.

Good luck mate and keep coming back here you will get some good advice


----------



## JohnA

Actually you should file first to get custody and tax credits. Keep her off balance.


----------



## Be smart

She is protecting him and his own family my friend because they made a deal about it. Only one person is hurting right now and that is YOU.

This makes me sad,because she thinks so low about you after you spend years with her.

Maybe this will sound boring to you,but she told you with her actions and lies what she thinks about you and your marriage.

You dont fight for it,she have to. If she was really sorry she would give you all information about him,quit/change her job,talk with MC and beg you for forgivnes.

You really need to Expose this to family and close friends.

Stay strong my friend and take care.


----------



## Sports Fan

Also what state and suburb do you reside in?


----------



## MattMatt

Even if she does drop him, she might not want to continue in the marriage, so do keep up the preparations to expel her from your life.


----------



## Hantei

@Sports Fan, I'm in NSW. Metro, let's keep it at that. Thanks for all the info, brazing up to see the lawyer soon. With the total income I don't think I've been getting any child rebates and haven't been in touch with centrelink since I started working. 
@MattMatt it definitely seems to be the case so I'm moving forward with no plan B.





MattMatt said:


> Even if she does drop him, she might not want to continue in the marriage, so do keep up the preparations to expel her from your life.


----------



## ing

How can i say this nicely.. Nope. There is no nice way.

DO NOT LEAVE THE HOUSE

In a few weeks/months you will see that this makes sense. It is incredibly painful and if she decides to stay she will make your life uncomfortable. You are going to have to learn to ignore her in that case. 
I suspect she will leave if you say that you will not leave.


----------



## Hantei

The lawyer told me something very similar. Will have to try to keep it civilized and non adversary if I can, I assume she'd want it that way as well so she can start building a "better life". He didn't put as much emphasis on not leaving the house ; however I was not going to anyway - at least for now. I expect her - admittedly this is based on my knowledge of her character which is not fooll proof as I can see now - she won't want to keep seeing him with me around and will move to her parents place. They won't stop her from seeing him I'm certain. 

It's odd but I think she suspects I'm up to something. Before that disaster we used to exchange at least 2-3 phone calls and numerous messages per day. After discovery it dropped to almost zero, today she's calling and messaging me for no reason at all. WTF?


----------



## Sports Fan

Good move on not leaving the house. It really will minimise her plans on claiming Centrelink assistance. I think your wife is in panick mode. The frequent phone calls you are now experiencing are for self preservation. She knows your up to something but wants to find out.

Personally now would be a good time to drive down to Office Works and purchase yourself two very good Voice Activated Recorders. Hide one under her car seat strapped with velcro and another in the house in the room you most suspect she will most likely talk on the phone.

The VARS will gather great intel for you on what she is up to and whether or not she is still seeing the other man.

Have you exposed this to other mans wife yet?


----------



## Marc878

Cheating has consequences. She will or has rewritten your marital history with you as the bad guy.

Full exposure will help with that. If she sincs her phone you can recover her deleted text messages or you can get them out of her phone if you have access. If for some reason she wants to attempt reconciliation at some point you do need the full truth.

Exposure will get you some closure as well. I would make sure his wife knows. He's probably done this many times before. As far as your son he needs the truth. 

She's probably taken it underground as most do.

I wish you the best whichever way this goes.

Good luck


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> The lawyer told me something very similar. Will have to try to keep it civilized and non adversary if I can, I assume she'd want it that way as well so she can start building a "better life". I expect her - admittedly this is based on my knowledge of her character which is not full proof as I can see now - she won't want to keep seeing him with me around


I wouldn't give a damn what she wanted. You handle this how you want.

The affair is probably still ongoing. You never thought she'd cheat either did you???


----------



## Hantei

@Marc, no never thought she would. That's what I refer to by stating my knowledge wsan't fool proof.

@All. No I don't have a contact for his wife/partner yet. I'm not even sure if they're is one ATM, all I have is photos from social media of a women and children. As much as I'd like to, can't move faster than I can. 1st timer you know. 

I'm not sure if I ever seen a VAR at Office Works (local office and electronic chain) but I can get them anyway. ATM I'm honestly not sure if I should play a detective as I'm dying to know yet at the same time doubt will I actually gain anything by going down that path. I know she has cheated, isn't this enough?


----------



## JohnA

Some have advise (especially in the case of video) not to listen at first. Insead have a trusted friend or an IC listen and tell you what was said. Keep the tapes for future reference if necessary.


----------



## Marc878

> I'm not sure if I ever seen a VAR at Office Works (local office and electronic chain) but I can get them anyway. ATM I'm honestly not sure if I should play a detective as I'm dying to know yet at the same time doubt will I actually gain anything by going down that path. I know she has cheated, isn't this enough?


If you're going to divorce no but if you try and reconcile this and most do you had better know the full truth up front or it'll be a waste of time. 

Cheaters always lie.


----------



## jdawg2015

OP, you've already have been given the BEST advice you'll ever get. The decisions have NOT been taken from you. If that's how you are thinking then you're toast.

Just DO NOT PLEAD, BEG, TRY AND CONVINCE, NOTHING. Full 180. Expose the hell out of it for sure for whoever the affair guy is.

From your words as I read them, this affair will be the end of the marriage. 

File for divorce. It will hurt, but the hurt of staying will be far worse.


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> @Marc, no never thought she would. That's what I refer to by stating my knowledge wsan't fool proof.
> 
> @All. No I don't have a contact for his wife/partner yet. I'm not even sure if they're is one ATM, all I have is photos from social media of a women and children. As much as I'd like to, can't move faster than I can. 1st timer you know.
> 
> I'm not sure if I ever seen a VAR at Office Works (local office and electronic chain) but I can get them anyway. ATM I'm honestly not sure if I should play a detective as I'm dying to know yet at the same time doubt will I actually gain anything by going down that path. I know she has cheated, isn't this enough?


You will get a lot of advice much fast that you can actually do it. Don't worry, just keep plugging away. Pretty much all of us were first timers. 

I would not bother with the VAR. It will just cause you pain for no reason. As you say, there is not much to gain and Australia is a no fault Divorce so no advantage to proving cheating.

It is a good idea to journal though. When she tell you something, write it down that day , date and time. 
This is for you because you are in a mess at the moment and this period will get scrambled in your mind. She will do everything to help with that scrambling...


----------



## bfree

Hantei, who have you told about the affair? Your wife has invented justifications to allow herself to cheat on you. She sees herself as a good woman and since good women don't cheat she's had to completely make up reasons for her actions. Don't buy it for a second. If you want to try to break her out of her fog then expose her affair far and wide. Tell family, tell friends, tell anyone who would see her actions as destructive to your marriage and to herself. At the same time you must show her that you are going to move on with your life, without her if necessary. Start separating finances, print out divorce paraphernalia (anything that shows you are moving toward divorce.) Let her see you actively looking to move on. When the discussion comes up (let her approach you) tell her divorce is not what you want but in the absence of a commitment from her to work on the marriage you have no alternative. Disengage from her as much as you can. Do not give her any attention (positive or negative.) Generally women tend to hate being ignored and left out of the loop. She needs to see you as something she not only doesn't want to lose but as something she WILL lose if she doesn't get her head out of her azz. Most of all understand that she is just a woman, she's not your soulmate, she's not the only woman in the world for you. If she doesn't value you there are literally thousands of others that are just begging for the chance to show you how much they do.


----------



## eric1

The reason she's calling you is because she doesn't know what's going on. Her relationship is still going on. She doesn't want you not to do it to 'protect you' is literally one of the top five excuses in the book.

EXPOSURE IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET YOU OUT OF INFIDELITY RIGHT NOW. TALK AND TALKING WITH THE LAWYER ARE LITERALLY THE ONLY TWO THINGS YOU SHOULD HE DOING AND THOSE NEED TO BE DONE WITH A LASER FOCUS. 

She knows exposure will destroy the affair. If you need help getting the name there are plenty of detectives here who can help you get the information (near instanteous)


----------



## RWB

Hantei said:


> ATM I'm honestly *not sure if I should play a detective as I'm dying to know yet at the same time doubt will I actually gain anything* by going down that path. *I know she has cheated, isn't this enough?*


H,

Fair enough... but

Regardless of whether R or D is in your future, at some point you may want to know the full extent of her betrayal... the Truth. From experience, I can tell you that while the Truth will not fade with time, the opportunity to obtain it in regard to affairs has a finite shelf life. 

Unlike Discovery Day (DD) where you have the choice to control the situation, Exposure Day (ED) the clock start ticking. Stories are exchanged, tracks are covered. As the days pass to months, what you know was crystal clear becomes blurred with the onslaught of half-truths, minimalizing, and the "moving on" mentality. 

In all honesty, the BS will never obtain "The Whole Truth", there's always more, but... better to march into the Future with as much clarity as possible then blinded by the lies of betrayal.


----------



## GusPolinski

The only reason I'd advise a VAR at this point would be to protect yourself against any claims of domestic abuse or violence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Good Evenning H, 

You mentioned you were working on exposure. How are you doing ith that. I know how had it is to tell family (especially parents) and friends about what is occurring, it is a big first step, but once taking I found measure of acceptance. In many ways you are in a deep sihock. Your post about sitting at home unable to even get out of a char, we all been there - big time. Part of what I experienced before expsoure was a dreading what people close to me would think of me. Part of you feels as though they will confirm you are a failure and if you where more of a man/woman this would have never happened. 

What I learned and you need to realize is that her adultery defines her - not you. How you handie it going forward defines you. Judge yourself on your actions now, tomorrow, next week, next month, and next year. That is how you reclaim your self-esteem. 
Don't give in to despair and inaction rather be the guy who rolls up his sleeve and says let's get it done.

Work on using the 180, but always be polite and diplomatic. Keep all responses, except for finacial and custody issues, neutral and vague. Expressions like "I am not sure how I feel about that right now" or I'm sorry you feel that way but getting though this s a process" and "of course I am upset, and in pain, but that is not point. We need to stay focused and get though this.". 
Finally keep answers very short.


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> Of course she claims this is to protect me from legal troubles but I'm finding this hard to believe.



She must really care about you. Inform at his work and find more about his family life and expose him.


----------



## Hantei

Thank you all for the responses and what I consider to be a helping hand in a difficult situation. It feels like I'm still in a shock of my life, so IThank you all for the responses and what I consider as a helping hand in a difficult situation. It feels like I'm still in a shock of my life, so I appreciate your thoughts - if I'm not able to move forward as fast as you seem to be suggesting the reason for that are my own limits not that I ignore the advice. It is also difficult to answer each post individually so once again I'll provide a summary, while each and any of you has my gratitude.

It does not seem I'll be reconciling and that is what I mean by "option is taken from me". Not the decision but the option. If anything I have learned so far, reconciliation is impossible or futile if she's not into it and she is not. Period. That is why I'm not - currently at least - going to go hard-core on snooping (VARs and PIs) but I reserve the right to use the info when it comes to me (like I still run all comms and networks at home). Had enough fun listening to that F***t on the voicemail. I will also keep a journal as suggested - for my own benefit and sanity. She's already claimed/quoted some things I have never said or did. 
Will also consider the VAR on me if things get hostile.

I'm effectively doing what you call a 180 - limited comms, short and polite, etc. I do not tend to engage her and I guess it is clearly visible that if I have a choice my preference is not to engage. I must same it comes naturally - that is what it feels like ATM, not because I'm so super decisive and resolute. It is just what I prefer for now. I must say that this is bothering her. Not in a "what have I done" way which I was expecting immediately after the discovery. She is definitely in what you are calling "fog" planning the "next phase of her life" - with the sales guy no doubts, and she was definitely all pumped up for me begging her and "I'm sorry for your pain but that's life, I can't command my heart, you won't be so cruel to confine me to the previous life no matter how good was that for us, you are a good man and you will be happy, let's move on and look after [Son]" drama. Quote. So that disengagement is a small deviation from her view of how all of this should be developing.

I'm trying to get a contact for his wife/partner. I don't see any point of at work exposure given what I know about his work. I'll tell my parents and close relatives/friends towards the end of the week when I am finished with finances and other things that would allow me to start the legal separation (special thanks to my Ozzy mates here). I'm sure her parents already know (she's really close with her mother) and got her version of events. I'll still give them my version but don't expect much out of it. appreciate your thoughts - if I'm not able to move forward as fast as you seem to be suggesting the reason for that are my own limits not that I ignore the advice. It is also difficult to answer each post individually so once again I'll provide a summary, while each and any of you has my gratitude.

It does not seem I'll be reconciling and that is what I mean by "option is taken from me". Not the decision but the option. If anything I have learned so far, reconciliation is impossible or futile if she's not into it and she is not. Period. That is why I'm not - currently at least - going to go hard-core on snooping (VARs and PIs) but I reserve the right to use the info when it comes to me (like I still run all comms and networks at home). Had enough fun listening to that F***t on the voicemail. I will also keep a journal as suggested - for my own benefit and sanity. She's already claimed/quoted some things I have never said or did. 
Will also consider the VAR on me if things get hostile.

I'm effectively doing what you call a 180 - limited comms, short and polite, etc. I do not tend to engage her and I guess it is clearly visible that if I have a choice my preference is not to engage. I must same it comes naturally - that is what it feels like ATM, not because I'm so super decisive and resolute. It is just what I prefer for now. I must say that this is bothering her. Not in a "what have I done" way which I was expecting immediately after the discovery. She is definitely in what you are calling "fog" planning the "next phase of her life" - with the sales guy no doubts, and she was definitely all pumped up for me begging her and "I'm sorry for your pain but that's life, I can't command my heart, you won't be so cruel to confine me to the previous life no matter how good was that for us, you are a good man and you will be happy, let's move on and look after [Son]" drama. Quote. So that disengagement is a small deviation from her view of how all of this should be developing.

I'm trying to get a contact for his wife/partner. I don't see any point of at work exposure given what I know about his work. I'll tell my parents and close relatives/friends towards the end of the week when I am finished with finances and other things that would allow me to start the legal separation (special thanks to my Ozzy mates here). I'm sure her parents already know (she's really close with her mother) and got her version of events. I'll still give them my version but don't expect much out of it.


----------



## Hantei

sparrow555 said:


> She must really care about you.


I assume there was sarcasm involved.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Hantei said:


> Thank you all for the responses and what I consider to be a helping hand in a difficult situation. It feels like I'm still in a shock of my life, so IThank you all for the responses and what I consider as a helping hand in a difficult situation. It feels like I'm still in a shock of my life, so I appreciate your thoughts - if I'm not able to move forward as fast as you seem to be suggesting the reason for that are my own limits not that I ignore the advice. It is also difficult to answer each post individually so once again I'll provide a summary, while each and any of you has my gratitude.
> 
> It does not seem I'll be reconciling and that is what I mean by "option is taken from me". Not the decision but the option. If anything I have learned so far, reconciliation is impossible or futile if she's not into it and she is not. Period. That is why I'm not - currently at least - going to go hard-core on snooping (VARs and PIs) but I reserve the right to use the info when it comes to me (like I still run all comms and networks at home). Had enough fun listening to that F***t on the voicemail. I will also keep a journal as suggested - for my own benefit and sanity. She's already claimed/quoted some things I have never said or did.
> Will also consider the VAR on me if things get hostile.
> 
> I'm effectively doing what you call a 180 - limited comms, short and polite, etc. I do not tend to engage her and I guess it is clearly visible that if I have a choice my preference is not to engage. I must same it comes naturally - that is what it feels like ATM, not because I'm so super decisive and resolute. It is just what I prefer for now. I must say that this is bothering her. Not in a "what have I done" way which I was expecting immediately after the discovery. She is definitely in what you are calling "fog" planning the "next phase of her life" - with the sales guy no doubts, and she was definitely all pumped up for me begging her and "I'm sorry for your pain but that's life, I can't command my heart, you won't be so cruel to confine me to the previous life no matter how good was that for us, you are a good man and you will be happy, let's move on and look after [Son]" drama. Quote. So that disengagement is a small deviation from her view of how all of this should be developing.
> 
> I'm trying to get a contact for his wife/partner. I don't see any point of at work exposure given what I know about his work. I'll tell my parents and close relatives/friends towards the end of the week when I am finished with finances and other things that would allow me to start the legal separation (special thanks to my Ozzy mates here). I'm sure her parents already know (she's really close with her mother) and got her version of events. I'll still give them my version but don't expect much out of it. appreciate your thoughts - if I'm not able to move forward as fast as you seem to be suggesting the reason for that are my own limits not that I ignore the advice. It is also difficult to answer each post individually so once again I'll provide a summary, while each and any of you has my gratitude.
> 
> It does not seem I'll be reconciling and that is what I mean by "option is taken from me". Not the decision but the option. If anything I have learned so far, reconciliation is impossible or futile if she's not into it and she is not. Period. That is why I'm not - currently at least - going to go hard-core on snooping (VARs and PIs) but I reserve the right to use the info when it comes to me (like I still run all comms and networks at home). Had enough fun listening to that F***t on the voicemail. I will also keep a journal as suggested - for my own benefit and sanity. She's already claimed/quoted some things I have never said or did.
> Will also consider the VAR on me if things get hostile.
> 
> I'm effectively doing what you call a 180 - limited comms, short and polite, etc. I do not tend to engage her and I guess it is clearly visible that if I have a choice my preference is not to engage. I must same it comes naturally - that is what it feels like ATM, not because I'm so super decisive and resolute. It is just what I prefer for now. I must say that this is bothering her. Not in a "what have I done" way which I was expecting immediately after the discovery. She is definitely in what you are calling "fog" planning the "next phase of her life" - with the sales guy no doubts, and she was definitely all pumped up for me begging her and "I'm sorry for your pain but that's life, I can't command my heart, you won't be so cruel to confine me to the previous life no matter how good was that for us, you are a good man and you will be happy, let's move on and look after [Son]" drama. Quote. So that disengagement is a small deviation from her view of how all of this should be developing.
> 
> I'm trying to get a contact for his wife/partner. I don't see any point of at work exposure given what I know about his work. I'll tell my parents and close relatives/friends towards the end of the week when I am finished with finances and other things that would allow me to start the legal separation (special thanks to my Ozzy mates here). I'm sure her parents already know (she's really close with her mother) and got her version of events. I'll still give them my version but don't expect much out of it.


I understand your mental state, so don't take this personnal. 

Your brain is now confused and producing illusional crap talk.

Follow the short and clear advice of the experienced posters above. Expose and Prepare Divorce. Protect. That is all, they think for you, trust them.


----------



## Hantei

See_Listen_Love said:


> I understand your mental state, so don't take this personnal.
> 
> Your brain is now confused and producing illusional crap talk.
> 
> Follow the short and clear advice of the experienced posters above. Expose and Prepare Divorce. Protect. That is all, they think for you, trust them.


I realized that. I thought that I've prepared myself for anything life is throwing at me but - being a naive fool - not for this. Kind of believed in "lived happily everafter".

So yeah, can't fully trust by brain ATM and yes I do follow.


----------



## Marc878

It doesn't look like it now but it will get better. The ones who come out best in these situations are the ones who get strong and take control of their life.

She is a cheater. Remember that. You can't fix or control her but you can yourself.

Lay out a plan of what you want and follow it. Take some time by yourself and think through this.

There are great women out there who don't act like this. 

Contact with her now will just set you back. Unless you want reconciliation and from what you've posted she's not a candidate. It takes two.

Good luck and keep us informed.


----------



## JohnA

Actually I think you are moving quickly. You have been posting here for under a week and all ready you accept the need establish finacial separation, spoken to a lawyer, read and using the 180, and are working on exposing. You have picked up on and rejected her rewriting history and started a journal. 

Seriously the hardest thing for indiviual a BS is to take the steps to protect them self’s going forward. 

At this point just review the past posts on your thread and keep going. Keep posting here to vent and to layout your plans for suggestions on how to refine them. Be sure to keep in touch with your fellow Ozzie mates for insights unique to where you live. 
Finally read other threads for insights that will help you and pitfalls. 

Three questions: when will your son be back? What is his age range ? How do you want custody to work out. (note I did not say what you think what will happen.) If you could stay in the house with primary custody would be best.


----------



## JohnA

On other do not stop moving forward with the divorce for anything. This includes an offer of reconciliation, death or tragedy in her family, or a major health issue that may cone up with her. Your county requires a one year waiting period so get every set and agreed on and then during the waiting period let things play out.

On the Var issue you should get a pen Var to record conversations with her.


----------



## Chaparral

If you think you could reconcile, her current state of mind is decieving. Its one thing to be fogged by a secret affair. Everyone KNOWING you're in an affair isca a whole new ball game. That's why you find out the Posom's wife info. Then all at once, her friends, her's and your parents, the posoms contacts(is he on facebook), even your kids in an age appropriate manner are told of the affair.

Usually, this kills the affair. If it does, she will be easier, after she explodes, to deal with divorce or reconcilliation.

The biggest regret we see her is guys that find excuses to avoid exposure in the very beginning. .jAs a matter of fact, everything else is pretty much pure weakness.


----------



## JohnA

Perhaps not so much weakness but the BS version of the fog. Hantel (like myself and countless others) is in disbelief and shock. Almost a panic to try save the marriage like a doctor refusing to stop CPR long after the patient is dead. 

Although Hantel is emotionally frozen by recent events, he is still taking pratical steps to move forward. Usually when i see posters pushing forward like him it is with a "oh hell no" attitude. So good on hm. 

His wife is in for a shook when the son arrives home. In her mind right now see is seeing men as a pug and play situation. In essence she is trading in the old model for a new one. That fanasty goes out the window the second the son has to interact with his father and OM. Suddenly things will not be so simple, hence my last post to get the divorce done before even discussing reconciliation. 

The other thing I noticed about Hantel is he not wasting time and getting frozen on how it happened. How is not important until after the paperwork is done. Again for him.


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> I assume there was sarcasm involved.


Yes..

And don't text her back or detail her all your plans. 

Do work on exposing her and him to relevant parties(in an appropriate manner. You can do it with dignity and get the point across)


You will have a lot of options once the exposure happens with regards to divorce.


----------



## Hantei

I'm on my way to get STD check. That sucks FML. So I'm definitely not moving fast enough. Actually I'm dragging my feet and subconsciously use any excuse to not GTFO (which would be the right choice). She is a step or two ahead - e.g. no calls or messages today. Perhaps seeing this *****ck. Hope after a dozen of what you call 2x4s like this STD test I'll wake up. Still miss her. 

Son is in his teens (high school) and is back Saturday week. I want to get primary custody so he can maintain his lifestyle and accomplishments and for him to have a say on the matter. I hope he knows I'm not going to deny his access to [wife] I just want him to decide where he wants to be. 





JohnA said:


> Perhaps not so much weakness but the BS version of the fog. Hantel (like myself and countless others) is in disbelief and shock. Almost a panic to try save the marriage like a doctor refusing to stop CPR long after the patient is dead.
> 
> Although Hantel is emotionally frozen by recent events, he is still taking pratical steps to move forward. Usually when i see posters pushing forward like him it is with a "oh hell no" attitude. So good on hm.
> 
> His wife is in for a shook when the son arrives home. In her mind right now see is seeing men as a pug and play situation. In essence she is trading in the old model for a new one. That fanasty goes out the window the second the son has to interact with his father and OM. Suddenly things will not be so simple, hence my last post to get the divorce done before even discussing reconciliation.
> 
> The other thing I noticed about Hantel is he not wasting time and getting frozen on how it happened. How is not important until after the paperwork is done. Again for him.


----------



## Dyokemm

"I imagine you are seeing contempt in her eyes."

Undoubtedly true for almost all WS's.....otherwise how could they do something so horrible to someone they once loved and made vows to.

Best response is to return the favor with a vengeance....total contempt in voice and demeanor.....as you hand them D papers.

I still believe that nearly all cheaters are convinced they are SO SPECIAL and such a catch that, of course, both POS AP and their BS will fight over the right to keep them.

Shattering this illusion with immediate D filing and utter contempt and rejection is something very few of them like or react well to....rejection hurts, even when its coming from the person they just betrayed.

In fact, I think H himself alluded to facts that demonstrate this might well be the case.

He said his WW did not seem to like his 180 at all....like she was expecting him to beg and plead for the M.

The fact he cut her off and is moving to D so fast seems to have stung her somewhat.

And if H can expose to POSOM's BW and send that ****roach scurrying for cover trying to save his own life and M, then H's WW is going to have an ugly dose of reality.....

Rejected and being divorced by her BH, while simultaneously being dumped by her scumbag OM as he tries to save his own a**.

Hope she likes being alone, and dealing with the anger and contempt of her son as well probably when he discovers what she has done to his father.

H.....expose her A to OMW and all friends/family ASAP.

Blow up Fantasyland!


----------



## JohnA

Again you are moving quickly. Read other threads, in some cases BS will wait months living in limbo before they even think about taking to a lawyer. They move out of the house hoping their spouse will miss them. Your moving forward. Yes their is much yet to do. Yes you are frozen emotionally, yes you struggle with your sense of self worth, yes a part of you thinks you are to plan. But you are taking steps and laying a foundation and know you want the house and custody. So good on you.

How are you doing with exposing the adultery? Have you shared what has occurred with anyone? 

Oh as to posm. Don't let people tell you to let him skate. I copied this from another site: 


Who is the other person*

There are moments in a persons life that transcends time. That emotion on the day of and day after their wedding, the birth of a child and that first moment me holding the child. They inform us, they are not what makes life worth living, they are life.

In the same way, adultery has transformed me. The echoes of the uncertainties and raw emotional pain will always be a part of me. Overtime it has and continues to evolve into a source of empathy. The empathy that enables me to understand others pain and fear, both in matters like this and others.*

*posm are not nice people. They had a choice to support *your marriage. *They could have helped your spouse to fight and win to save your marriage. They choose to use the opportunity to try to fill a void in their life. In doing so tey choose to inflict the pain and loss I wrote above.*

Understand they choose to be the one. To say "if not him, then..." does not work. They *choose it to be them and no one else. In this they *are *lacking in character. So, they could be a fine person, *but so are addicts until they need a fix.

So what is, is. I have gained acceptance, I have greatly healed. I have gain empathy and awareness, and a great deal of indifference. It is from indifference I say "no they are not a nice person". *It is from the same place I would comment on a persons second DUI. No when a person allows there own weakness to create actual harm or create a real threat of harm, they cannot be truly be considered a nice person

So he owes, but collect the debt at a time and place of your choosing.


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> I realized that. I thought that I've prepared myself for anything life is throwing at me but - being a naive fool - not for this. Kind of believed in "lived happily everafter".
> 
> 
> 
> So yeah, can't fully trust by brain ATM and yes I do follow.



Then let us help you. Expose first (obviously don't signal that you're doing this) and consult with a lawyer. Don't make excuses for putting it off, do it today. I promise you that these two actions will help you more talk an anything else in the entire process. And both can be done in the time that it took to write your last long post.

Eyes forward. You'll get through this. But you have to keep moving. Wallowing in indecision will KILL you.


----------



## Be smart

How are you my friend ? Take care of your health,you have a lot of happy years in front of you.
This is not the end of the world. In some way you should feel happy that you are getting rid of this woman. She clearly lost all love and respect for you and she even continued her Affair. That was a clear message for you,sorry.

Your son is old enough to know the truth. You really need to tell him about this. 

Also tell your family and close friends. Belive me it is going to be a lot worse. She will start telling bad stories about you,maybe even call you abusive husband/father. She already done it with her own mother.

Stay strong my friend.


----------



## Hantei

Thank you very much for commenting. I'm not sure if I follow all the advices (probably not) but at the very least your posts give me some logical anchor to believe that one way or another it will be over - eventually.

Probably it will be "over" rather sooner than later. Had a rough night yesterday. Noticed another couple of calls to that now very well memorised number. Time to put a stop to this nonsense and had a chat with her. The summary of that is that she will stay until our son gets back than will move in with her parents. So the separation will start from that point onwards. After that - as an interim arrangement - she will be coming here after work to spend time with the son then driving to her parents' place. She will have him spending some weekends with her over there. The only "shared property" she takes with her for now is her car that I'm paying for, phone, laptop, tablet, etc. I'm OK with that.

So she basically gave up on our marriage and moving on. Still playing it like it is me who is pushing for the separation (like her sleeping with the SOB and professing a "deepest connection with the man on all levels she ever felt in her life" - yes I got hold of one of the messages - leaves me with any other choice) and she is the victim. Yes she does not want to lift a finger to fight for the marriage and "know she's burned her bridges and have no other choice but to move on". The value of this site for me - apart of a place to vent of course - is that I think I know what genuine remorse should look like and at the moment I rate her in that department approximately at the level of a used car salesman.

I also conclude that she's told her parents (mother at least) - so I'll have to expose in order to at least present my side of the story this weekend. Not that I expect much but humiliation from all these looks but at least I’ll know I’ve done the right thing. Still unable to get SOB's wife/partner details - does he actually have one?

Well, at least the legal part seems to be working well.


----------



## Sports Fan

Mate get a lawyer to draft all this up especially the kids custody and get her to sign it whilst she is still in the fog.

Sorry you are going through this but personally you are a better man than me. I would have ceased her car payments and everything else by now.


----------



## Hantei

That's exactly the plan. According to the lawyer the "lifestyle continuity" for my kid will play a substantial role in the final decision. Was it the case for you as well? 

The car (her car) is under my name - if I try to keep it it will introduce hostility to early in the process plus she won't be able to keep that arrangement wrt son.

Emotionally I'm ok to walk out empty handed just with enough time with my kid. Let her have the rest and wish her to be so proud. 





Sports Fan said:


> Mate get a lawyer to draft all this up especially the kids custody and get her to sign it whilst she is still in the fog.
> 
> Sorry you are going through this but personally you are a better man than me. I would have ceased her car payments and everything else by now.


----------



## GusPolinski

@Hantei, I'd advise you to push through w/ the divorce as quickly as possible. Draft terms that are fair, and maybe even slightly beneficial to you. If you think you can get her to agree to cede more than that, then go for it.

Either way, get it done and over with while she's still in her fog.

ETA: Should've read ahead. Mad props, @Sports Fan. Not sure I agree w/ respect to the car, though.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Exposure! Do not procrastinate. Tell her you have a date. Act ambivalent and uninterested and by all means expose POSOM . I am n r, but if I ever see POSOM God help him. 
I feel for you my man. Been there


----------



## Sports Fan

Hantei said:


> That's exactly the plan. According to the lawyer the "lifestyle continuity" for my kid will play a substantial role in the final decision. Was it the case for you as well?
> 
> The car (her car) is under my name - if I try to keep it it will introduce hostility to early in the process plus she won't be able to keep that arrangement wrt son.
> 
> Emotionally I'm ok to walk out empty handed just with enough time with my kid. Let her have the rest and wish her to be so proud.


Im not divorced but have had my legal advice and becuase of the nature of my job i'm very up to speed on how the law works.

Yes i was advised continuity of the kids is very important and the law tends to favour the parent that has kept the routine of the kids ongoing with minimal disruption.

In regards to the car doesn't matter whose name it is under eventually it all goes in an asset pool to be divided up once all morgage and bills are met.

I would advise to play it cool until she signs over custody then pull the plug on the car payments etc. Let the courts figure that out. In the meantime she will suffer inconvenience as the court process is Australia is very slow and the Family Law Court is backed up for up to 3 years.

Stay Strong


----------



## Hantei

Glad it worked for you. Apparently I'm not pushing for R hard enough, not fighting for the marriage, had her living in tears for the last couple of weeks using time the kid is away from home. So my emotional closeness killed or marriage in more ways that her "indiscretion".

One more gem. I have not been supportive of her career while they spent hours why him talking about her career and he was soooo encouraging. This was in a context of a discussion of what the hell did they do when spending time together if not f^$5%%g like rabbits? 

For the record she always had my full support while being full time, part time (ATM) or SAHM. Including writing the CV, meeting dry runs, support in rejecting the promotions which would bring a salary increase but demand longer hours, etc.







Sports Fan said:


> Im not divorced but have had my legal advice and becuase of the nature of my job i'm very up to speed on how the law works.
> 
> Yes i was advised continuity of the kids is very important and the law tends to favour the parent that has kept the routine of the kids ongoing with minimal disruption.
> 
> In regards to the car doesn't matter whose name it is under eventually it all goes in an asset pool to be divided up once all morgage and bills are met.
> 
> I would advise to play it cool until she signs over custody then pull the plug on the car payments etc. Let the courts figure that out. In the meantime she will suffer inconvenience as the court process is Australia is very slow and the Family Law Court is backed up for up to 3 years.
> 
> Stay Strong


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> Glad it worked for you. Apparently I'm not pushing for R hard enough, not fighting for the marriage, had her living in tears for the last couple of weeks using time the kid is away from home. So my emotional closeness killed or marriage in more ways that her "indiscretion".


Blah.

Blah.

Blah.

Blah.

Blah.



Hantei said:


> One more gem. I have not been supportive of her career while they spent hours why him talking about her career and he was soooo encouraging. This was in a context of a discussion of what the hell did they do when spending time together if not f^$5%%g like rabbits?


Blah.

Blah.

Blah.

Blah.

Blah.



Hantei said:


> For the record she always had my full support while being full time, part time (ATM) or SAHM. Including writing the CV, meeting dry runs, support in rejecting the promotions which would bring a salary increase but demand longer hours, etc.


Yeah, none of that will matter for as long as she's looking to justify the affair, blame the affair on you, etc.


----------



## Hantei

So what I'm saying that it looks, feels and sounds like an exit affair to me.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> So what I'm saying that it looks, feels and sounds like an exit affair to me.


Yessir. Act accordingly.

I will echo Sports Fan and Gus. Get a favorable settlement now, before her AP loses interest in her.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Dyokemm

H,

You are doing very well.

So you are not fighting hard enough for the M, huh?

One, that is rich coming from a woman screwing a POSOM behind her BH's back.....she's wh*ring around, but YOU are the one not fighting.

But the second thing that I read in this is that she really did expect you to fight the OM to keep her, and is stung that you seem to have quickly rejected her and moved to D.

I suspected as much based on your earlier posts about how she didn't seem to like your 180.

She will cling even more to POSOM now, since she feels she has lost any chance with you for good.

If you expose POSOM to his BW/partner, the most likely result will be that he will dump her fast to try and save his own a** and M.

At that point, facing losing everything and being alone, expect her to make a tear filled attempt to get you to take her back.

What you want to do with that is entirely up to you, R or continue the D....but if you do decide to try R with her, make sure it is entirely on your terms.


----------



## JohnA

Wow, you don't know how well you are doing. Just get it in writing. I have read only one or two posts here where the wife was in such a hurry to get with the posm she left kids and most assets behind. In both cases their dream relationship crashed and burned. The husbands went though a lot of pain but because the break was so quick and complete they healed emotionally, had the home, had the kids full time and built a great life. N

Truth: no matter what you did it would have been wrong. Do the 180, I guess he does not really care - I'm gone. Beg, swore to do anything, and plead, if he had only done this sooner but I'm done. 

If this works for you use it. If she says your actions show you don't care or someone else says it seems to her you didn't care respond: I am more then willing to fight for the marriage but I will never fight another man for her. He didn't get her drunk, he didn't take advantage of her she is not a child but an adult. Perhaps it is time she accepts the responsibility of adulthood.

Oh by the way in both cases the ex's complained why didn't you fight for me.


----------



## JohnA

@Wolf1974 is one of the posters whose wife ran off and left everthimg behind. Here is one of HS threads http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/169554-how-i-able-move-long.html. Note there are few similarities between his ex and your wife except for adultery and out the door. Yet he took what he got and is making a whole life for himself. See where he is today http://talkaboutmarriage.com/life-after-divorce/321409-last-part-formal-life.html


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> So what I'm saying that it looks, feels and sounds like an exit affair to me.


Dont try to argue with her and waste your breath...


----------



## eric1

It's impossible to know if it's an exit affair. It doesn't really matter, in the stage you're at your actions need to be the same as any other affair.

Expose and seek legal advice. Expose. Lawyer. Then expose. Then lawyer.

The formula is simple. Just worry about those two things at this point.


----------



## JohnA

Handel, 

I don't want to go into it now, but I do think you need to explore the reasons she gave you for being unhappy and several other points but at a later date. I do have some questions based on your responses but now is not the time to bring them up. It is Friday night in your country as I post this. You need to focus on the process of separation and exposure now and setting up a structure going forward. Once she is exposed, living at her parents, assets divided, and a new routine established with your son the her fog will begin to lift. In many ways if these matters are not settled they will act as an enabling factor for the fog to continue.


----------



## Wolf1974

JohnA said:


> @Wolf1974 is one of the posters whose wife ran off and left everthimg behind. Here is one of HS threads http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/169554-how-i-able-move-long.html. Note there are few similarities between his ex and your wife except for adultery and out the door. Yet he took what he got and is making a whole life for himself. See where he is today http://talkaboutmarriage.com/life-after-divorce/321409-last-part-formal-life.html


This is true. It is so hard to know what someone else's motivation is, why they do what they do. I missed.....not true, I ignored red flags about my X the size of Texas and paid a price for it. But even though she had previously cheated in other relationships I know our marriage was good and she herself even said that. In the end we don't always know why people do what they do or why they do it. Ultimately it doesn't matter, someone wrongs you then you have to move on, doesn't matter the reason. Sorry you are here OP but you will get through this and may one day look back at this as a great day you were freed. The first day of the rest of your life.


----------



## Graywolf2

Hantei said:


> Apparently I'm not pushing for R hard enough, not fighting for the marriage, had her living in tears for the last couple of weeks using time the kid is away from home. So my emotional closeness killed or marriage in more ways that her "indiscretion".


You must be a generally good guy. I say that because she is working so hard not look like the bad guy to herself, friends and family. If you were avarage she wouldn't have to construct an alternate reality.


----------



## Graywolf2

Double post


----------



## weightlifter

She appears to be in a fog about OM.

USE IT.

Shes thrilled to be the target of an alpha chimp. Use it!

Alpha chimps get bored.


----------



## JohnA

Or lose momentum. Beta's sometimes get a day in the sun where all their alpha fantasies come true for a brief moment in time. It's why they stay in obit. Please note I said "day". Something that isn't real collapses. One reason I hope Hantel stays focus on "administration" issues. 

Very old saying: marry in haste, repent in leisure. 
New saying: settle & file, move on or repent in leisure. There is a one year waiting period after all.


----------



## Hantei

Dyokemm said:


> So you are not fighting hard enough for the M, huh?
> 
> But the second thing that I read in this is that she really did expect you to fight the OM to keep her, and is stung that you seem to have quickly rejected her and moved to D.
> 
> I suspected as much based on your earlier posts about how she didn't seem to like your 180.


Thanks, your quoted paragraphs are spot on. She also seem to hesitate to move out (why does she want to stay here for another week till or son comes back). In general I sense she feels like leaving home country for a nice job overseas. Exciting but scary and many things and history to miss.


----------



## Hantei

eric1 said:


> It's impossible to know if it's an exit affair. It doesn't really matter, in the stage you're at your actions need to be the same as any other affair.
> 
> Expose and seek legal advice. Expose. Lawyer. Then expose. Then lawyer.
> 
> The formula is simple. Just worry about those two things at this point.


It's 8.20 and I'm starting with calls to ones close to me in an hour and 10 minutes. I'm so not looking forward to it.


----------



## Hantei

Graywolf2 said:


> You must be a generally good guy. I say that because she is working so hard not look like the bad guy to herself, friends and family. If you were avarage she wouldn't have to construct an alternate reality.


That is the only thought that allows me to stay rational. Otherwise I was in coma for all these years and her daily telling me how happy she is was just a dream.


----------



## Hantei

JohnA said:


> Handel,
> 
> I don't want to go into it now, but I do think you need to explore the reasons she gave you for being unhappy and several other points but at a later date. I do have some questions based on your responses but now is not the time to bring them up. It is Friday night in your country as I post this. You need to focus on the process of separation and exposure now and setting up a structure going forward. Once she is exposed, living at her parents, assets divided, and a new routine established with your son the her fog will begin to lift. In many ways if these matters are not settled they will act as an enabling factor for the fog to continue.


Ask away John if you like. I need a sounding board badly.


----------



## Hantei

Wolf1974 said:


> This is true. It is so hard to know what someone else's motivation is, why they do what they do. I missed.....not true, I ignored red flags about my X the size of Texas and paid a price for it. But even though she had previously cheated in other relationships I know our marriage was good and she herself even said that. In the end we don't always know why people do what they do or why they do it. Ultimately it doesn't matter, someone wrongs you then you have to move on, doesn't matter the reason. Sorry you are here OP but you will get through this and may one day look back at this as a great day you were freed. The first day of the rest of your life.


Thank you very much, that helps.


----------



## JohnA

I felt that way to. Amazing acceptance and support. Most will ask if maybe the two of you could work it out. I replyed no because she was with him or emailing him most of the time. That while I would fight for the marriage I wouldn't fight for her. Most got it very quickly when I put it like that. 

A very few tried to push the subject harder, I calmly replied "how when she is either out with him for the week-end, texting him, or on the phone with him. Of our mutual friends and neghbors none flame thrown, but her they very quickly shunned her. I never had to say more then that.

Reality really hilt her when I bought her out of the home and she bought a townhouse. Even though her AP wife was divorcing him he chose to move in with his father.


----------



## JohnA

I will ask later, but you need to get the interstucture of the separation done and exposure. You stay - she leaves, son stays with you-visits her, she takes only personal property-50/50 split worked on and finalized, and you set up separate financial accounts-joint accounts closed.

Changing the subject to what ifs maybe I should try is a fools play. You read some posts in 2014 and I assume you have read others lately. Can you see how BS only increased the pain by not taking steps to stand strong. Read Gridcom's thread. A good guy who when blindsided like you took stock, saw what needed to be done, began and continues to change and spent 6 plus months begging her and being treated like dirt. 

The only other thing you need to do is enage in intense physical activity to burn of the stress hormones running though your body. Not to get buff so you can get hotter and younger. Screw that. Do it to keep your head down. 

Oh, down the road a women same age, maybe a year older, very attractive, outgoing and really shows she feels lucky to have her. You slimmer a little more stylish with a couple of new interest. That will hit home.


----------



## ing

Hey
This sounds eerily familiar to me. My ExW decided to leave with a man that "insert hurtful comment" because I was so "something new"
while my kid was away on camp..

This needs to be handled carefully because like any rational person your son will not believe the speed at which this happened and the indecent haste of her departure. 
You need to tell him why. He will put two and two together very quickly so there is no need to go into details other than "Your Mother has told me.."

One thing you can leave out is "She loves you very much" She clearly does not love his security and wellbeing more than this other guy and this will not go unnoticed.

The idea of securing custody in Australia is largely moot after the kid hits 15. They decide. He will decide to stay at home and stay over with his mother in increasingly smaller chunks. You will need to be much more available. 

Here is something you are going to find hard..

You must not get in between, buffer or otherwise interfere in the relationship between your son and his Mother. That relationship must stand or fall on its own. 

As I was writing this A song popped up on Pandora. 
I won't back down

Yep..


----------



## ing

JohnA said:


> Oh, down the road a women same age, maybe a year older, very attractive, outgoing and really shows she feels lucky to have her. You slimmer a little more stylish with a couple of new interest. That will hit home.


Or more likely quite a bit younger!


----------



## Sports Fan

Hantei said:


> Glad it worked for you. Apparently I'm not pushing for R hard enough, not fighting for the marriage, had her living in tears for the last couple of weeks using time the kid is away from home. So my emotional closeness killed or marriage in more ways that her "indiscretion".
> 
> One more gem. I have not been supportive of her career while they spent hours why him talking about her career and he was soooo encouraging. This was in a context of a discussion of what the hell did they do when spending time together if not f^$5%%g like rabbits?
> 
> For the record she always had my full support while being full time, part time (ATM) or SAHM. Including writing the CV, meeting dry runs, support in rejecting the promotions which would bring a salary increase but demand longer hours, etc.


Mate try not to buy into her bul...lsh...it. A cheater will re write the marriage history and out right lie to give her self some validation for her foul behavour.

Stay Strong


----------



## Hantei

Well, I can honestly say I have done with that nonsense, just had enough of it. I’m probably not that person that instantly goes nuclear (which seems to be a common theme here) and was going to fight for the marriage – if there was anything to fight for. In other words if she would be making just slightest steps in that direction and putting at least hints or traces of effort. She’s clearly not into it any more so what remains for me is to just go through what needs to be done with as much dignity and self-respect as I can. If she’s moving on – as she is – I’m not going to jump through the hoops for someone who gave away what was so unique between us so easily.
Simply put she slept with the other man and I’m not playing a one-man-orchestra in this opera.


To explain why I am writing this – I have exposed over the weekend. It probably didn’t work as expected. Surely, I’ve got a lot of support from those who have been informed, though as it was totally unexpected I’ve had a lot of “you should be working things out” and when I made it clear that that is not something I can do alone the general sentiment was “are you sure it is not something innocent you are blowing out of proportion” or “are you sure you haven’t done anything that would push her into the affair” or “it is likely you two were having serious issues before you have not been telling us”. I can understand that – when I was posting that our marriage was good – it was actually good by all accounts.

What was totally surprised is the reaction of her parents (mostly mother). It looked like they are surprised but not shocked for the lack of better terms. Felt like they (she) new something is coming, requests to “try to work things out” were very brief an casual and she (my WW) seems to be getting their full support in moving on. Sure, her mother is very “my way or highway” but I would have never thought her daughter’s marriage was so irrelevant?

Anyway. I have left a message with SOB sarcastically congratulating him on ruining the marriage and asking him to meet in person. He hasn’t responded yet, but he has surely told her as she got totally insane and jumped to his defence. Quickly changed the tune to “I worry about you getting into trouble” but her initial reaction told me all I needed to know. The SOB seems not to be married so I’m not sure what else can I do.


She didn’t like the exposure and claimed that by doing so I have burned all bridges and she cannot see the marriage to be recovered from this. My next question of “did you ever see the marriage recovering from you sleeping with the other man” she said that “it was a mistake, she’s genuinely sorry, she shouldn’t have done it, and they “didn’t get it too far” (whatever the hell it means, I was biting my tongue not to ask about the “lengths and distances” if you know what I mean) but she thinks this has nothing to do with her moving on”. I’m not trying to understand her logic anymore. That connection when I understood her before she ever had to speak is gone.


Now, the interesting part. Because I have got a lot of “are you sure it is not something innocent you are blowing out of proportion” and this pissed me off, I got into the snooping mode and got hold of couple of colorful messages between them. I’m tempted to get them “published” although I know this will get in a way of a quick an civilised separation I want.


----------



## GusPolinski

Blah, blah, blah.

She's just pissed that you aren't "fighting for her".

Not that it would matter, though... because it's like you said -- you can't do it alone.

And Hell... why should you fight for her when she's got one foot out the door already?

_You shouldn't_.

And besides, doesn't she need someone <insert long list of petty adjectives that somehow justify her pathetic MLC>?

As for the responses you got? I wouldn't worry, as that's more or less standard fare for the ignorant and/or naive.

It's 180 time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Stop engaging her. 

If this is over, act like it.

Reread the 180 and execute it to the greatest extent possible, understanding there are some things that have to be avoided due to coparenting.

From now on, you should have three sayings when she gives you the emotional vomiting:

"I am sorry you feel that way."

"I am not okay with (yelling, lying, affairs, etc.)"

"I see it differently."

These help you avoid arguing as well as deflecting her emotions back at her.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## JohnA

Pure DAVO, expect more of the same. Don't think for a moment exposure caused it. It has been going on for awhile behind your back. Exposure forced it out into the open. One of the results of exposure is it protects you against rewrite. @marduk posted this a bit ago 



Davo

What is DARVO?

Jennifer J. Freyd, University of Oregon

Short Definition

DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility or even blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.


Disclaimers

DARVO as a concept is based on observation and analysis. The author has not yet published systematic empirical research testing the coherence or frequency of DARVO. However, the first empirical research specifically testing the concept of DARVO is completed and the manuscript report is in preparation (Harsey, Zurbriggen, & Freyd, in prep).
Other observers have likely noted the same phenomena and related phenomena using different terms; the author has been informed that some people have found the term DARVO a helpful mnemonic and organizing concept.
Also the presense of DARVO is not necessarily evidence in support of the accusation of guilt; a truly innocent person may deny an accusation, attack the person making the accusation, or claim the victim role. Future research may be able to determine the probability of a DARVO response as a function of guilt or innocence. The author hypothesized that some sorts of denials and reactions such as DARVO are more likely when the perpetrator is guilty than innocent (Freyd, 1997); however this hypothesis has not yet been tested. Furthermore, even if research indicates that a DARVO reaction is more likely when there is actual guilt, it would be an error to use a DARVO reaction as proof of guilt.
For now the concept of DARVO is offered as potentially memorable and useful term for anticipating the behavior of perpetrators when held accountable, and for making sense of responses that may otherwise be confusing (particularly when victim and offender get reversed).*
History of Terminology & Writings about DARVO

Jennifer Freyd introduced the term "DARVO" near the end of a 1997 publication about her primary research focus, "betrayal trauma theory." (For more on betrayal trauma theory, see Definition of Betrayal Trauma Theory.)

The reference for the 1997 article introducing the term is:

Freyd, J.J. (1997) Violations of power, adaptive blindness, and betrayal trauma theory. Feminism & Psychology, 7, 22-32.

In that paper Freyd explained that DARVO responses may be effective for perpetrators. "...I have observed that actual abusers threaten, bully and make a nightmare for anyone who holds them accountable or asks them to change their abusive behavior. This attack, intended to chill and terrify, typically includes threats of law suits, overt and covert attacks on the whistle-blower's credicility, and so on..... [T]he offender rapidly creates the impression that the abuser is the wronged one, while the victim or concerned observer is the offender. Figure and ground are completely reversed... The offender is on the offense and the person attempting to hold the offender accountable is put on the defense." (Freyd, 1997, p 29-30)

"By denying, attacking and reversing perpetrators into victims, reality gets even more confusing and unspeakable for the real victim. .... These perpetrator reactions increase the need for betrayal blindness. If the victim does speak out and gets this level of attack, she quickly gets the idea that silence is safer." (Veldhuis & Freyd, 1999. p 274).

It didn't happen (an instance) or It rarely happens (a type of event)
It wasn't harmful
Put together they can take the form: "It didn't happen, but if it did, it wasn't that bad" or "It rarely happens, but when it does it isn't harmful." The two claims both serve to deny, but they depend upon different sorts of evidence. They may both be true, but they are sometimes somewhat suspicious when claimed simultaneously (or by the same person at different times), as for instance can occur in response to allegations of rape or child sexual abuse.

Here is the link*What is DARVO?


----------



## JohnA

How are you dong nailing down the proposed separation agreement.


----------



## JohnA

If I already posted this on your thread let me know and I will delete it. 


THE 180's:

180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. I am convinced that if I had implemented them, I would still be married. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. (Making it)*

So here's the list:*
Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
No frequent phone calls.
Don't point out "good points" in marriage.
Don't follow her/him around the house.
Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.
Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS.
Don't ask for reassurances.
Don't buy or give gifts.
Don't schedule dates together.
Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.
Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!
Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.
Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!
When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!
If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.
Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them!
Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.
No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.
All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!
Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!
Don't be overly enthusiastic.
Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!
Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!
Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.
Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.
Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.
Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.
Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!
Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.
Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"
Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.
When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW."

Here is the link *Critical Readings For Separation and Divorce - LoveShack.org Community Forums


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> Well, I can honestly say I have done with that nonsense, just had enough of it. I’m probably not that person that instantly goes nuclear (which seems to be a common theme here) and was going to fight for the marriage – if there was anything to fight for. In other words if she would be making just slightest steps in that direction and putting at least hints or traces of effort. She’s clearly not into it any more so what remains for me is to just go through what needs to be done with as much dignity and self-respect as I can. If she’s moving on – as she is – I’m not going to jump through the hoops for someone who gave away what was so unique between us so easily.
> Simply put she slept with the other man and I’m not playing a one-man-orchestra in this opera.
> 
> 
> To explain why I am writing this – I have exposed over the weekend. It probably didn’t work as expected. Surely, I’ve got a lot of support from those who have been informed, though as it was totally unexpected I’ve had a lot of “you should be working things out” and when I made it clear that that is not something I can do alone the general sentiment was “are you sure it is not something innocent you are blowing out of proportion” or “are you sure you haven’t done anything that would push her into the affair” or “it is likely you two were having serious issues before you have not been telling us”. I can understand that – when I was posting that our marriage was good – it was actually good by all accounts.
> 
> What was totally surprised is the reaction of her parents (mostly mother). It looked like they are surprised but not shocked for the lack of better terms. Felt like they (she) new something is coming, requests to “try to work things out” were very brief an casual and she (my WW) seems to be getting their full support in moving on. Sure, her mother is very “my way or highway” but I would have never thought her daughter’s marriage was so irrelevant?
> 
> Anyway. I have left a message with SOB sarcastically congratulating him on ruining the marriage and asking him to meet in person. He hasn’t responded yet, but he has surely told her as she got totally insane and jumped to his defence. Quickly changed the tune to “I worry about you getting into trouble” but her initial reaction told me all I needed to know. The SOB seems not to be married so I’m not sure what else can I do.
> 
> 
> She didn’t like the exposure and claimed that by doing so I have burned all bridges and she cannot see the marriage to be recovered from this. My next question of “did you ever see the marriage recovering from you sleeping with the other man” she said that “it was a mistake, she’s genuinely sorry, she shouldn’t have done it, and they “didn’t get it too far” (whatever the hell it means, I was biting my tongue not to ask about the “lengths and distances” if you know what I mean) but she thinks this has nothing to do with her moving on”. I’m not trying to understand her logic anymore. That connection when I understood her before she ever had to speak is gone.
> 
> 
> Now, the interesting part. Because I have got a lot of “are you sure it is not something innocent you are blowing out of proportion” and this pissed me off, I got into the snooping mode and got hold of couple of colorful messages between them. I’m tempted to get them “published” although I know this will get in a way of a quick an civilised separation I want.



After the exposure and the kind of reaction she is having,you are not having a civilized separation. .


Anyway, just tell them you have hard evidence that it is not something innocent. Does matter much anyway




> didn’t get it too far


Send her the texts you found


----------



## Hantei

JohnA said:


> How are you dong nailing down the proposed separation agreement.


Thanks to all. 

It is gong very well. We are on the same page here with her. I want this to end, she wants to move on. Considering he's trying to convince her she's found her true love and she's clearly buying that all this boring and vulgar staff is of no essesnse.


----------



## Hantei

sparrow555 said:


> After the exposure and the kind of reaction she is having,you are not having a civilized separation. .
> 
> 
> Anyway, just tell them you have hard evidence that it is not something innocent. If he is a coworker, hold the "exposure at work" card to get a things done.


No, not a coworker so I can't use the workplace card. By civilized I mean that we are not fighting hard over assets and legal issues.


----------



## Hantei

sparrow555 said:


> Anyway, just tell them you have hard evidence that it is not something innocent. Does matter much anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Send her the texts you found


Didn't understand this part... or perhaps I wasn't clear. These are their texts (emails) so I'm not sure what purpose will it serve except she'll have a reason to blame me for violating her privacy. She does not deny physical relationship so I'm puzzled what does she mean by "not taking it too far". How far is too far? Uu

She regrets though of doing this "to soon" but according to the messages she's too tempted to resist.


----------



## sparrow555

She might not know how much you know. So she might be giving you the "didn't take it too far" lines


----------



## JohnA

Stay calm polite and diplomatic in all your discussions with WW to keep the separation on track. Hopefully she is out and at her mom's when your son gets home. Once he is home and she the reality of the results of her choices she will what to stay and you leave.


----------



## bandit.45

Talk as little as possible to her. Separate and get that one year waiting period started (stupid AUS divorce laws). Let your lawyer do the talking. Move out or move her out as quickly as you can and cut contact. It is the only way you will heal. Try to remain in the same house and you will get to see her dress up for him every night before she leaves. 

Her parents lazy reaction tells you everything you need to know about where she got her lack of morals and principles.


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> Well, I can honestly say I have done with that nonsense, just had enough of it. I’m probably not that person that instantly goes nuclear (which seems to be a common theme here) and was going to fight for the marriage – if there was anything to fight for. In other words if she would be making just slightest steps in that direction and putting at least hints or traces of effort. She’s clearly not into it any more so what remains for me is to just go through what needs to be done with as much dignity and self-respect as I can. If she’s moving on – as she is – I’m not going to jump through the hoops for someone who gave away what was so unique between us so easily.
> Simply put she slept with the other man and I’m not playing a one-man-orchestra in this opera.


Going nuclear is almost always the best solution. In the best case it can shake someone up just enough to stop an affair, but in many,many cases this is not the case. I am really sorry that it ended for you. She might go onto a lovely relationship with this guy but the odds are stacked heavily against them.





Hantei said:


> To explain why I am writing this – I have exposed over the weekend. It probably didn’t work as expected. Surely, I’ve got a lot of support from those who have been informed, though as it was totally unexpected I’ve had a lot of “you should be working things out” and when I made it clear that that is not something I can do alone the general sentiment was “are you sure it is not something innocent you are blowing out of proportion” or “are you sure you haven’t done anything that would push her into the affair” or “it is likely you two were having serious issues before you have not been telling us”. I can understand that – when I was posting that our marriage was good – it was actually good by all accounts.


You handled it well. Exposure is not an explosion it is a virus that kills affairs through the use of truth. You need to give it time. 




Hantei said:


> What was totally surprised is the reaction of her parents (mostly mother). It looked like they are surprised but not shocked for the lack of better terms. Felt like they (she) new something is coming, requests to “try to work things out” were very brief an casual and she (my WW) seems to be getting their full support in moving on. Sure, her mother is very “my way or highway” but I would have never thought her daughter’s marriage was so irrelevant?


One of the best things about Divorcing someone is that you no long have to worry what any of these people think. They are her family and will side with her. End of story.



Hantei said:


> Anyway. I have left a message with SOB sarcastically congratulating him on ruining the marriage and asking him to meet in person. He hasn’t responded yet, but he has surely told her as she got totally insane and jumped to his defence. Quickly changed the tune to “I worry about you getting into trouble” but her initial reaction told me all I needed to know. The SOB seems not to be married so I’m not sure what else can I do.


This is very sad. Your wife is jumping to this guys defense. She really changed camps hasn't she. This is also her realizing you are not the doomat she thought you were. It does not fit with her view of you. Forget the other guy. If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. Please do not engage with her. This will be tricky because you are absolutely essential to their relationship and she will try over and over again to engage you. More on that later.



Hantei said:


> She didn’t like the exposure and claimed that by doing so I have burned all bridges and she cannot see the marriage to be recovered from this. My next question of “did you ever see the marriage recovering from you sleeping with the other man” she said that “it was a mistake, she’s genuinely sorry, she shouldn’t have done it, and they “didn’t get it too far” (whatever the hell it means, I was biting my tongue not to ask about the “lengths and distances” if you know what I mean) but she thinks this has nothing to do with her moving on”. I’m not trying to understand her logic anymore. That connection when I understood her before she ever had to speak is gone.


She wanted to leave you, then fall into the arms of another man. Of course she got that backwards. It does't really matter though she is gone.

And dude...
You can not argue with crazy. You can not work thinks out because she is not behaving in a rational way. Stop trying to work it out. It will just send you mental!



Hantei said:


> Now, the interesting part. Because I have got a lot of “are you sure it is not something innocent you are blowing out of proportion” and this pissed me off, I got into the snooping mode and got hold of couple of colorful messages between them. I’m tempted to get them “published” although I know this will get in a way of a quick an civilised separation I want.


She will not allow you civilized. She will make the emotional mess if you try and get that. 

*After exposure*
There is a natural break after exposure. You continue with the administration of dismantling something you thought had value. The hard part for me was that it obviously had zero value for her. 

It will feel quite. It is time to think about what you want. As you, just you in the future. That will feel really odd and you will fail miserably but that doesn't matter. Just have a think about it.


----------



## Iver

First, do not engage with the POS OM. By that I mean no threats and no altercations. Jail will not help with custody and asset division, I assure you.

Second, make sure your son knows the truth. Age appropriate truth but no nonsense about "we grew apart..blah blah blah." He needs to know that his mother is having an affair with Mr. POS. I would look into school counselors or a recommendation from your doctor or medical group for a therapist for him. Children can have difficulty processing trauma and this should help.

OK, now for something that sucks. You need to investigate the POS to make sure their are no criminal or shady background issues that could put your son at risk. You need to make sure your son is self aware of safety issues and knows what to do if he is at risk. Just a simple example of refusing to go in the car if the driver is drunk. 

Do not trust your wife to do the right thing here.


----------



## Be smart

Now you know the truth about yor true friends my friend. You saw their faces and now it is up to you what you do from now on. 

Her mother is just like her and I can understand better where she learned things. Such a shame.

They all wanted to blame you for her cheating and hurting you. They are fools my friend and please dont let them reach you.

Your wife excuses are so stupid and she thinks so little about you. 

Continue with you Divorce plans and find yourself a better woman.

Stay strong and take care.


----------



## Sports Fan

Wouldn't worry too much about what the naive think. In regards to her parents at the end of the day she is their child will always side with her. Regarding friends that have doubts just tell them her sleeping with another man is not blowing things out of proportion and leave it at that. 

If any friends continue to doubt you then cut them out of your life. True friends will stick by you. You dont need doubters in your circle.

I repeat my earlier comments. Try and legally nail down custody agreement through a lawyer whilst she is still in the fog and agreeable to most of your demands.

Chances are affair partner will tire of here eventually then pi...ss her off. Thats when she will hit rock bottom. When she is left alone, No affair partner, no husband, or kids cause she was stupid enough to sign them away whilst in the fog.


----------



## Hantei

@sparrow555 – She knows that I know (and admitted) it wen physical. So I’m genuinely puzzled what does she refer to when saying ‘didn’t take it too far’. I don’t want to publish these messages in in full the public forum, but I have interpretation for this – how “further” are they going to take it? Get married instantly? Do it in public like these co-workers in NZ some months ago? @JohnA - my son getting home is what I’m really afraid of. For so many reasons.
@Bandit45 – I agree, nothing else to say.
@ing and the rest. You are so right. I have spent a sleepless night reading and re-reading TAM threads and my WW’s messages with that SOB (or POS as you call him). I think back then – accidentally – I picked up threads where WW’s were extremely remorseful and was ready to lift mountains in order to salvage the marriage. Like that dude who ended up taking flying lessons and his wife (not sure if I am allowed to refer other threads, but I hope they made it). Not my case unfortunately. The marriage is the balance – when it (the balance) is disturbed by infidelity, and typically (as I assumed before these days, I was so wrong) there were issues but the WS goes above and beyond - the balance can be restored and perhaps even improved. But if I had a really good marriage and my wife is ready to walk out of it when the other guy snaps his fingers (the guy to whom she writes that despite feeling guilty of doing the worn thing she never felt such emotional connection when making love to a man) – there is no hope the balance can be restored even if her relationship with him fails as you some of you predict (doesn’t seem to be the case ATM but whatever). You can try to outrun a sniper but you will just die tired.

Separation is in place starting Monday. Will be the last weekend as a family when I’ll have to explain my son what is happening. @Iver – yes, it sucks royally. So does everything else.


----------



## Hantei

Sports Fan said:


> I repeat my earlier comments. Try and legally nail down custody agreement through a lawyer whilst she is still in the fog and agreeable to most of your demands.


That's exactly the plan. Without posting details I'm getting what I want and think is fair in that department. All can change on Sunday - as predicted she may go berserk- but my son is mature enough to have a say. Will aim to what's best first him.


----------



## bandit.45

I'll be honest with you all. I'll probably get shredded, but here it goes.....


I'm not impressed with Australian women....

....from what I've seen on this forum. We have had a lot of Aussie husbands here on TAM over the years, and to a man they have the most unremorseful, entitled, unrepentant wives I think I have ever seen. And compared to some of the humdinger American WWs we have encountered, that is saying something!


----------



## bandit.45

Hentai, how does the one year waiting period actually start? Do you file some kind of "intent to divorce" paperwork with the court?


----------



## lostmyreligion

bandit.45 said:


> I'll be honest with you all. I'll probably get shredded, but here it goes.....
> 
> 
> I'm not impressed with Australian women....
> 
> ....from what I've seen on this forum. We have had a lot of Aussie husbands here on TAM over they ears, and to a man they have the most unremorseful, entitled, unrepentant wives I think I have ever seen. And compared to some of the humdinger American WWs we have encountered, that is saying something!


Australia has some of (if not) the most lethal fauna on the planet.

Seriously. Even platypus's are venomous.

Why should the wives be any different?


----------



## Hantei

My plan is to go with a Consent order (to cover finacials but most important the parenting plan). This plus separate finances and evidence of living separately (she moves out to parents next week) should satisfy the court afte 12 months and 1 day - thats when I will apply for a legal divorce. I'm trying to avoid under-one-roof separtion but if it happens to be the case I'll have to provide a really complex affidavit. I have a separation of finances so far and printed emails I've sent to family and friends declaring the separation. So the counter starts ticking next week.
Hopefully on 15.03.2017 I'll be legally single.


I don't want to go in to the land of sterotypes but since 'lived happily everafter' was not for me I'd wish my wife would show the qualities you mentioned, be it Australian, US or whatever.

Thanks for calling me Hentai, Bandicut.


----------



## bandit.45

Bandicoots are badass. I dig wombats too. Wombats are trey cool.


----------



## bandit.45

I don't like stereotyping. I like to think I'm above that. 

But...damn.


----------



## happyman64

Hantei

I understand you are nervous telling you son.

What is your plan?

Sit him down and tell him yourself or have you and your wife sit down and tell him together?

No matter what keep it simple. Keep it blameless.

Something like this:

"Son,

Your mother and I are divorcing. She decided to get a boyfriend without discussing it with me first. 
She decided that she needs to find herself "whatever the hell that means" and I have decided that since she is not acting like the woman I married that she is better off without me in her life.

I'm here for you. You can decide where you want to live. The choice is yours.

And we can both watch your mothers life implode before our very eyes....

I love you boy."

But all kidding aside make a plan. Keep it simple. Your son will quickly figure out what has transpired and will transpire....

You my friend have acted with great self control and dignity. Your son will remember that forever.

HM


----------



## Dyokemm

"She didn’t like the exposure and claimed that by doing so I have burned all bridges and she cannot see the marriage to be recovered from this."

lmao.....always one of my favorite lines and so, so common for WW's

Cheater gets p*ssed that they have been exposed as a traitorous wh*re.....and instantly rage at their BH's that now it is REALLY over.

Like their scummy selves were ever going to consider saving the M in the first place.....it's so comical.

I hope every BH who has a WW feed him this crap says something like the following:

"What makes you think I would want a trashy woman like you back anyway?....I just want everyone to know who you truly are."


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> Thanks for calling me Hentai, Bandicut.



Hahahah!!!!



> *hentai*:
> Japanese for "pervert." Literally "strange desires." In American usage it more often refers to Japanese p*rn, especially in cartoons.


----------



## QuietSoul

Bandit45, I'm an Aussie female. Not really sure what you mean. Most stories on this forum relate to American couples. I have seen some pretty extreme stories concerning American spouses, both male and female.. But I don't judge all American women (or men) based on stories like this. I have worked in family law (including for accredited specialist lawyers who practice family law exclusively) so I have certainly seen some of the worser stories and what people are capable of. If I based my impression of humanity on my job, I would have necked myself by now.

We don't look at Donald Trump and base our impression of all Americsns on his nincompoopery. So please don't base your opinion of Aussie women on a few stories in this forum.


----------



## JohnA

Is there a slang word for women like wanker for men?


----------



## QuietSoul

John A, not sure there is an exact equivalent, but there is a generous smorgasbord of unsavoury things you could call a woman.


----------



## tech-novelist

Fenris said:


> If he does 4x 180's, doesn't that mean he's going back in the same direction he started in, except he's tired out now?


Sounds right to me.

By the way, here's a "fun fact" about 720 degrees. Did you know that rotating a spin 1/2 particle like a proton by 360 degrees isn't enough to bring it back to the original alignment? That is because it takes two complete rotations (720 degrees) to return a spinor to its initial value:

"When a spinor is rotated by 360 degrees (one full turn), it transforms to its negative, and then after a further rotation of 360 degrees it transforms back to its initial value again. This is because in quantum theory the state of a particle or system is represented by a complex probability amplitude (wavefunction) Ψ, and when the system is measured, the probability of finding the system in the state Ψ equals |Ψ|2 = Ψ*Ψ, the square of the absolute value of the amplitude."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin-½


----------



## JohnA

Hi @QuietSoul

Yes but none have the same sense of utter contempt. I hear the term and think of walking into a pubic restroom in a train or bus station. I think of a man in clothes unwashed in weeks. I think of the stench of there body order. I remember seeing them standing at the urinal and realizing they are masturbate. 

So who is the posm OM, a wanker.


----------



## QuietSoul

What's a posm?


----------



## oneMOreguy

QuietSoul said:


> What's a posm?


Piece of sh** other man


----------



## bandit.45

QuietSoul said:


> Bandit45, I'm an Aussie female. Not really sure what you mean. Most stories on this forum relate to American couples. I have seen some pretty extreme stories concerning American spouses, both male and female.. But I don't judge all American women (or men) based on stories like this. I have worked in family law (including for accredited specialist lawyers who practice family law exclusively) so I have certainly seen some of the worser stories and what people are capable of. If I based my impression of humanity on my job, I would have necked myself by now.
> 
> We don't look at Donald Trump and base our impression of all Americsns on his nincompoopery. So please don't base your opinion of Aussie women on a few stories in this forum.


I hope you are telling me the truth. I can only tell you what I have seen here on TAM and by anecdotal experience. All I'm saying is I don't think I will be traveling to Oz to find a wife. ....and I have pretty much given up on American women.... So..... I guess I'm out of luck...

By the way... Donald Trump isn't real. He's an actor secretly working for the Democrats. It's all a big conspiracy to humiliate and delegitemize the Republican Party.


----------



## tech-novelist

bandit.45 said:


> I hope you are telling me the truth. I can only tell you what I have seen here on TAM and by anecdotal experience. All I'm saying is I don't think I will be traveling to Oz to find a wife. ....and I have pretty much given up on American women.... So..... I guess I'm out of luck...


What about Latin America?


----------



## bandit.45

tech-novelist said:


> What about Latin America?


Latin America? It's to the south of us.


----------



## tech-novelist

bandit.45 said:


> Latin America? It's to the south of us.


True, but I also hear that there are women there who may treat men better than they typically do in some other countries.


----------



## Hantei

My apologies for interrupting the discussion- posting this as I really want to get it off my chest now. 
I'm so not looking forward for this weekend when I'll have to tell my son his life as he knows it is shattered to pieces. I know kids especially his age do adjust but we used to be a tight knit family so he's going to deal with a sudden gut kick out of nowhere. I'll i form him on the way from the airport.

I also know she spent lunch with him today. This combined with the fact that I see a lot of tears, uncertainty from her and regret she got the family and me hurting but nothing in terms of any attempt to save the marriage gives me a gloomy outlook. 

The only case when I've seen a bit of "what am I doing " from her was when she approached me from behind and put a hand on my shoulder. We used to be very physical all the time so before today I had to fight my reflexes and habits to touch her. Stopped myself at the last moment couple of times. Today I reached a point when she probably out of habit put a hand of my shoulder - I basically convulsed (like I was electrocuted) and shrugged her off. This got into her but not for a while. 

The only positive thing with that attitude of her this should be over relatively soon.


----------



## JohnA

Yea, you are seeing regret not remorse. But regret is not even sorrow. Christ I think I was four when my mother hit with "no you are not sorry, if you where you wouldn't not have done it. You regret getting caught". Your WW might have regrets for losing some things but she is not sorry. Sometimes the hardest things in life are the simple things. 

In any event I predict a big DAVO show this week-end on her part. What is DARVO?. There will be a year to ask what ifs, what did I miss, etc for now just get the damn papers signed. How far along are you at splitting assets?


----------



## bandit.45

Don't feed too much into her weepy party. Women cry on demand. They are good at it. She's not mourning the loss of you or her marriage. She's crying in the same way she would cry if she was saying goodbye to an old girlfriend at the airport. 

Don't read anything into it. If it were me I'd be "What the fvck are you crying about?! Stop your crying! This is what YOU wanted you dumb b!tch!" 

But that's just me....

You are probably a lot more civilized than me.


----------



## bandit.45

tech-novelist said:


> True, but I also hear that there are women there *who may treat men better* than they typically do in some other countries.


If the man in question is Catholic... maybe. 

I'm too damn jaded to give any objective advice.


----------



## JohnA

Hi,

Did you ever get a pen Val or any type of Var ? You might need it tonight. If DAVO hits tonight she is likely to launch into a rage blaming you for everything. While she may not care about what you think of her, she will care about her son. Don't be surprised if a panic sets in. 

As to what to tell you son, your opening post is fine. If you review my post on exposure 101 your post fits its guideline perfectly. Just the facts, regret at what has happened, and your plans moving forward. Stress in a marriage issues are issues but adultery is adultery.


----------



## ing

Don't fall for the line that children adapt and find it all okay within a few months. Kids take a long time to recover and it will have a serious impact on his life. This will change his world view forever and the best advise I can off is to make sure he knows that this all happened very quickly. 

The crying and is not even regret.. 
She is sorry for the hurt she is causing. There will be lots of tears, snot and shaking but it is all about her guilt and shame. You will notice that it in no way changes her actions..

For her to tell you about sex with the other guy is horrendous but very revealing. 
I am sure this is the tip of the iceberg with snide and hurtful remarks and imperious looks being thrown your way almost constantly.

I know this is hard because I have been where you are. 
She is totally unrecognizable? I turned myself inside out trying to work out how my ExW had so suddenly _changed _, what caused it, how I could help her see.. All sorts of mind fcks I put myself through!

The horrible truth was that she had not changed. The only thing that had changed was that she had bumped up against my hard boundary. That was it. It was simply me saying NO. She was used to getting her own way. 

Why, how I had allowed my life to directed by another person is another story. I am better now. 

The hand on the shoulder was to see if she was still having an effect on you. She was relived to see the recoil because she knows she is getting to you. 

You need to go Grey Rock.


----------



## JohnA

A fair arguement the fog is a form of temporary (?) BPD.


----------



## oneMOreguy

JohnA said:


> A fair arguement the fog is a form of temporary (?) BPD.



For some reason this just hit me hard.........I really just disagree with it. During the worst of my inappropriate friendship I never once would have considered being flippant or mean to my wife.

I do believe that during this fog you are seeing the unfiltered version of your cheating spouse......no longer under the pressure of being on their best behavior. In other words if someone has meaness within them.......it is more likely to come out while in the fog. Not everyone in the fog is capable of truly mean behavior.....other than of course the affair itself. I could never recommend reconciliation to anyone who is truly mean/cruel during an affair........they are merely showing you who they really are and what they are capable of.


----------



## JohnA

I can see that. To be with spmeone who enjoyed seeing you suffer, who went out of there way to cause pain. Hard tp come back from that.


----------



## 86857

Hey Hantei
- From personal experience (2 boys & a girl), as they get into the teenage years it becomes all about them LOL, hanging with their mates, doing stuff they are into etc & not being around their parents so much. Remember back when you were a teenager? 

- They're adaptable. Mine accepted it very quickly & got on with their own busy lives - early teenage years. They got stressed ONLY if their Dad & I argued or talked about it in front of them. I never tried to be difficult in terms of them seeing him etc. So I didn't talk to them about it & was polite to him (he was an a**h***). He would steam up about it in front of them & I would simply say nothing & leave whether I was at his place or mine. I mentioned in another post that now they've grown up they thank me for it - that they weren't caught in the middle of hostility like lots of their friends. It won't be easy. Let off steam to family members, mates etc. Use the punchbag at the gym - I did on the advice of a psychologist friend 

You are staying in the family home right? Excellent! Your home is 'home' for your boy, always was & always will be. And guess who's there? YOU. :smthumbup:

- I know you're hurting like hell but has anyone told you how crap, hard, difficult R is? :banghead: All I read about it on TAM threads is how much it SUCKS, how it goes on for years, how so often WS aren't 100% remorseful, how the mind movies play in BS heads for years, . . how it so often ends up as false R with BS being trickle-truthed for years even. . . Does that sound like an attractive proposition to you? R is a load of *&%# imo. Read a few threads about it. The path you're taking is MUCH easier & YOU will be in charge of your own life & happiness, not your WS.

- WS sounds as if she's not 100% enthusiastic now, having to leave your home etc & maybe OM isn't looking so attractive. . . & the bull**** she fed you, wanting an artistic type, not supporting her career blah blah blah. . . and they're each other's true love - as if they were teenagers. . . you kidding me? Check back on them in 5 years - or sooner - when the honeymoon phase is over. 

- You're going to have good & bad days for a while. You will think about the hows, whys, & what ifs. You will probably obsess. There ain't a way around that. You just gotta go through it. But you will. . . & MUCH faster than if you did R btw. Oh, & the less you see of her the better - so only if you absolutely have to. 

Quite a few points in your favour, right? The usual advice - keep busy - it works. Spoil yourself. an exotic holiday for you & your boy etc? You won't feel the way you do now forever. Try & get out socially, just to dip your toes in the water, not to start a relationship or even date. But heck there's no harm in taking a look. You might be pleasantly surprised. About 50% of couples divorce, so there's no shortage 

Good luck. I'm glad you're not doing R :grin2:
PS I know a Dad who was in exactly the same position. The kids are now grown up. Guess who they're closest to? where they regard as home? & how they regard their Mum? I'll leave you to work it out


----------



## JohnA

Hi Hantei, 

How did the day go with your son? 

The last sentence of **********'s post is why if you can keep the family home.


----------



## CTPlay

God help us all. But I remember being in this stage. 

Keep moving forward. It's the only piece of advice worth a damn. 

I know your pain. I know it well. I know the fear.


----------



## Hantei

All right, an update (then I'll proceed with responding to specific posts, which have been most helpful. I was reading them over the weekend but could not respond).

If I am expected to state only the facts, the short version is: my son didn't take it well (an understatement of the year) - in a time span of approximately 40 minutes he went from a happy boy who just had a trip of a lifetime to a confused, angry and shut down teen. He basically slammed the door of his room on us - 1st time as far as I can remember. My wife (from now on I'm going to use STBXW - more on this later) took it very hard and there was a lot of tears, regret and emotions, but as the outcome to all of this she managed to convince herself that while she did the wrong thing that kind of impact on our son is partially if not mostly my fault as I didn't give her enough time to prepare "us" for that (I couldn't resist and made a comment that there's no "us" anymore). So she moved out Sunday evening with intent to come back home tonight at 6.30 pm - ish and then go back to her parents. During the weekend she was constantly on the phone with her parents and had 3 calls with the SOB (based on the telco phone logs that have been updated this morning). I'll be staying home with him (the son) today only to be interrupted with a short trim to the office. She (STBXW) also sent me an email with ton of apologies (which was all about thanks, sorry, moving on the way I read it) - but as she is reiterating in it she'll be staying with her parents for now (finding good rent is tough in here, my Ozzy mates will confirm that) I have a written confirmation of the separation - so today is officially the separation 1 of 366.

Now the emotional part. As I mentioned my son is not taking this very well. He's a good student, a successful and promising athlete competing at national and international levels (I'm his coach BTW), a bright personality so it is extremely painful to see that sort of impact on him and think how he will be affected long term. By reading threads here I have noticed that very often there's one and only particular "thing" that gets embossed into the brain of the betrayed person likely forever - could be a particular humiliating message between "them", or a lie that has been told in a very "honest" way, or some graphical and juicy details.

Well, for me that moment would be the impact on my (my used deliberately here) son and the fact that at the end of day she has walked out. I will never be able to forgive that. F*&^^l me, I could be a devil incarnate and I understand that she does not want to be married to me anymore, but she should've been mature enough to run through this process like an adult. These thing to not happen overnight.


----------



## Hantei

@JohnA - you were right and I did get a bit of blame. Financial assets are split to a degree that allows separation to start. I'll be meeting (my preferred) lawyer soon to start drafting the long term financial and parenting plan. I am not sure if she is in fog or making rational (from her POV) decisions - but let me tell you this. If this is a fog indeed, it is filled with diphosgene judging by the impact it has caused - and I did not have the gas mask ready.

@bandit.45 - exactly. I was thinking along the line of "moving to a different city for exciting job", which is the same.

@ing - agreed with each and any of your paragraphs. Given that I didn't have to endure months or years of marriage falling apart, I'm truly surprised by the change she went trhough in a mater of weeks. I do not beleive that I'm seeing her pure self that has been hidden from me all the time; I honetsly believe she just... changed.

@********** - thank you very much. Especially for the paragraph before last. I'm expecting a delivery of my new boat end of April (the US-made one). I have spent hours with my son (who shares all hobbies with me) before planning all alterations, layout and gear. I was going to cancel or on-sell this over the weekd, you post got me to change my mind.


----------



## Be smart

This is said thousands of times but every cheater is trying to paint a picture in their heads like everything they do is the right choice. 

Your wife is going to learn this 3-4 years from now on and until then she will blame you for everything my friend.

You are the one who forced her to cheating,you are the one who hurt your son,family,friends ...

What you need to do is to shut her from your life,dont talk with her. Only do it when you are trying to help your son or about Divorce. 

Maybe you can try and find a good therapist for your son. He is old enough to know about this but he will need a little help.

Stay strong my friend and best wishes to you.


----------



## JohnA

Hantei, you are a hero to date. You got the interstucture that gives you a lot of tools that will allow you to rebuild a great life, in short you put the pain and what ifs aside and got the deal done. At some point she will realize short changed herself. She might never say it, but it will burn inside her. By not fighting with her or for her, you allowed her to take the easy way out by running. 
So Good on you. 

Great decsion to keep the boat, it is a natural bond builder between a father and son that will last a life time for him. Your wife will not be part of it at all this and other events will haunt her. Truth one of you was going to get short changed in building bonding moments. By keeping the home, getting custody you made she suffered the loss she deserved. 

As to taking with your son. Take ownership of the issue that are your's, express to your son what they are and you are stilling trying to figure everything else. Stress issues are issues and adultery is adultery. Discuss the efffects of adultery. As to fighting for her, again fight another man NO, fight to protect yes. Be calm and explain these concepts to him and he will begin to grow. 

As to your statement "a bit of the blame" really ? So you would describe a tidal wave as a little choppy seas? Stay on top of this and don't let her pass things that are her's to own. Oh well sit back tonight and just relax. Tomorrow will come quick enough but you have your son and a great foundation. 

When your ready, and you want to, we can go back and read the tea bags, 


Be well


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> Well, for me that moment would be the impact on my (my used deliberately here) son and the fact that at the end of day she has walked out. I will never be able to forgive that. F*&^^l me, I could be a devil incarnate and I understand that she does not want to be married to me anymore, but she should've been mature enough to run through this process like an adult. These thing to not happen overnight.


 I would have not thought this was possible has I not experienced this. 

This woman put her own selfish and shallow desires above that of her own child. That is not supposed to happen. It does.

There was a moment there where a fog may have lifted. There was a tiny sliver of hope that your son's Mother would see the pain, realize why it was there and come back from the brink. I think we all hoped that would happen. 
It never has as far as I know. They just hurtle along the road to oblivion destroying everything and everyone they loved. 

I am so sorry.

Some admin..
Don't forget to call Centrelink tomorrow and update them as to the situation as of now
Since he lives with you claim primary care
Update your income estimate with them
Start chopping off all the things in your budget you do not need.

Being single with kids is expensive. Very expensive... 
Bank on receiving no financial ( or other) help from your Ex. 

Some self care
Cook a meal that you and your son like. Eat it together. 
Go for a walk! 

Your Son
Tell him you will answer all questions openly and honestly. 
He will probably quit lots of things. Let him
His grades will suffer. That is okay
Let him grieve


----------



## Hantei

Thanks all,

ING, thanks for the admin bits. I'm really worried he's going to slip on grades and sports (he's in a selective school).


----------



## bandit.45

Just love him.


----------



## Hantei

bandit.45 said:


> Just love him.


Yep. No one else.


----------



## ing

More admin 
Let school know as they will be able to help him better.
Most schools will assign a counselor and keep an eye on him. 

Keep him busy and organize something new and different for easter break.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hantei

ing said:


> More admin
> Let school know as they will be able to help him better.
> Most schools will assign a counselor and keep an eye on him.
> 
> Keep him busy and organize something new and different for easter break.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks just called the school and will be meeting the principal. Great idea wrt Easter break. All your advice is great (only I need nothing from the Centrelink let alone STBXW or anyone else to maintain our lifestyle thanks God for 20 years of hard work).


----------



## eric1

Have you exposed to her boyfriends fiancé now that you've seen recent phone records?


----------



## sparrow555

Just because you wont bad mouth her(to your son) doesn't mean she would do the same...


----------



## JohnA

At this point their is only one consideration about exposing him to his fiancé. It is the right think to do. Right now she is where Hantei was a month ago. Secure in a relationship but in reality sitting on a time bomb. She needs to know to begin rebuilding her life. 

As to your son, he needs for you to set the agenda and the pace. His life as change and old routines and habits need to change which requires planing and exception. This is an adult responsibility. But at his age he needs to be very involved as it will be a life lesson for him.


----------



## Hantei

F $//g great, she didn't even show up as agreed. Sent an email with apologies (she is confused, shaken, doesn't know where her mind is and what to do, needs to get herself together before she talks to the son whom she loves and doesn't want to hurt more).

Guys, I don't know for sure if SOB has a wife, fiance, de facto or whatever. Kids or anyone else. Don't know how to find her and if there is a benefit in doing that. She I'm sure will find out soon - it's obvious my STBXW sees a "future" in them together I mean with SOB.


----------



## aine

Hantei said:


> F $//g great, she didn't even show up as agreed. Sent an email with apologies (she is confused, shaken, doesn't know where her mind is and what to do, needs to get herself together before she talks to the son whom she loves and doesn't want to hurt more).
> 
> Guys, I don't know for sure if SOB has a wife, fiance, de facto or whatever. Kids or anyone else. Don't know how to find her and if there is a benefit in doing that. She I'm sure will find out soon - it's obvious my STBXW sees a "future" in them together I mean with SOB.


Sorry Hantei, but you and your son are moving on, I cannot imagine that that 'relationship' will work out, it is likely if OM is a player that once he's got her permanently, he'll play her too but she is not your problem anymore, you are well rid of her. Just be there for your son and ensure he gets all the support he needs.


----------



## Hantei

aine said:


> Sorry Hantei, but you and your son are moving on, I cannot imagine that that 'relationship' will work out, it is likely if OM is a player that once he's got her permanently, he'll play her too but she is not your problem anymore, you are well rid of her. Just be there for your son and ensure he gets all the support he needs.


Thanks Aine. You are right and all of your points are valid. So are other posters. However as I'm only weeks from the D-day I'll likely to need some time to adjust and follow it to the letter.


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> F $//g great, she didn't even show up as agreed. Sent an email with apologies (she is confused, shaken, doesn't know where her mind is and what to do, needs to get herself together before she talks to the son whom she loves and doesn't want to hurt more).
> 
> Guys, I don't know for sure if SOB has a wife, fiance, de facto or whatever. Kids or anyone else. Don't know how to find her and if there is a benefit in doing that. She I'm sure will find out soon - it's obvious my STBXW sees a "future" in them together I mean with SOB.


Were you two together when you told you son about the divorce ?


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> Thanks just called the school and will be meeting the principal. Great idea wrt Easter break. All your advice is great (only I need nothing from the Centrelink let alone STBXW or anyone else to maintain our lifestyle thanks God for 20 years of hard work).


Oops.. Sorry. The CPA will contact Centrelink as a first point of call. if your wife gets in first and claims primary care for family tax benefit then they will take a large chunk of your money until you can prove that he is with you.


----------



## Hantei

ing said:


> Oops.. Sorry. The CPA will contact Centrelink as a first point of call. if your wife gets in first and claims primary care for family tax benefit then they will take a large chunk of your money until you can prove that he is with you.


You are right. What I meant is that I need no child support, FTB or anything else. I have claimed FTB last financial year and he is under my name for health care rebate and private medical insurance. But again if she is entitled to money so be it. I don't care.


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> F $//g great, she didn't even show up as agreed. Sent an email with apologies (she is confused, shaken, doesn't know where her mind is and what to do, needs to get herself together before she talks to the son whom she loves and doesn't want to hurt more).
> 
> Guys, I don't know for sure if SOB has a wife, fiance, de facto or whatever. Kids or anyone else. Don't know how to find her and if there is a benefit in doing that. She I'm sure will find out soon - it's obvious my STBXW sees a "future" in them together I mean with SOB.


This is obviously total and utter garbage. She is doing exactly what she wants to despite the pain it causes your son. She is not confused. She is not shaken and her apologies are worthless to you and him because actions speak louder than words.

She won't make it in a relationship with this guy because affairs are parasitic. They require a real relationship to feed on to survive. Do not be the host. She will make efforts to engage you. 

It is time to stop checking the phone logs now.. In fact cut her phone off. No longer part of the family is she.


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> You are right. What I meant is that I need no child support, FTB or anything else. I have claimed FTB last financial year and he is under my name for health care rebate and private medical insurance. But again if she is entitled to money so be it. I don't care.


That is a good attitude. Sort CPA out when they call you. Just keep records of how often he is with you from today. They will assume you are a wife beating SOB. Just be ready for that..


----------



## Hantei

sparrow555 said:


> Were you two together when you told you son about the divorce ?


The short version is (I'm not going to mention what has been said between me and my son and his reaction - I want to keep him out if this). I have asked her not to accompany me to the airport as I don't like her company atm. She agreed. On my way home I told him there are issues, we are separating so he demanded explanation straight after we arrived home. She started to give a PG+ version "we are having issues, need to spend time apart, we both love you". I couldn't hold it and just said "the truth is your mum has another man in her life and is moving out to stay with her parents". He locked himself in his room. STBXW got extremely upset, blamed me for bad mouthing her and soon packed and left.


----------



## estwe

He deserves to know the truth. You did well there! 

Odesláno z mého HM NOTE 1LTE pomocí Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> The short version is (I'm not going to mention what has been said between me and my son and his reaction - I want to keep him out if this). I have asked her not to accompany me to the airport as I don't like her company atm. She agreed. On my way home I told him there are issues, we are separating so he demanded explanation straight after we arrived home. She started to give a PG+ version "we are having issues, need to spend time apart, we both love you". I couldn't hold it and just said "the truth is your mum has another man in her life and is moving out to stay with her parents". He locked himself in his room. STBXW got extremely upset, blamed me for bad mouthing her and soon packed and left.


Perfectly handled, Hantei.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## bfree

Hantei said:


> The short version is (I'm not going to mention what has been said between me and my son and his reaction - I want to keep him out if this). I have asked her not to accompany me to the airport as I don't like her company atm. She agreed. On my way home I told him there are issues, we are separating so he demanded explanation straight after we arrived home. She started to give a PG+ version "we are having issues, need to spend time apart, we both love you". I couldn't hold it and just said "the truth is your mum has another man in her life and is moving out to stay with her parents". He locked himself in his room. STBXW got extremely upset, blamed me for bad mouthing her and soon packed and left.


Your son is older right? He deserved the truth and if your wife has to account for her behavior so be it. There are many former WS on TAM that have had to disclose their affairs to their children. There may have been some initial angst but in the end all the parent/child relationships recovered in time. If your wife is honest and open with your son it will go a long way toward rebuilding trust between them.


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> The short version is (I'm not going to mention what has been said between me and my son and his reaction - I want to keep him out if this). I have asked her not to accompany me to the airport as I don't like her company atm. She agreed. On my way home I told him there are issues, we are separating so he demanded explanation straight after we arrived home. She started to give a PG+ version "we are having issues, need to spend time apart, we both love you". I couldn't hold it and just said "the truth is your mum has another man in her life and is moving out to stay with her parents". He locked himself in his room. STBXW got extremely upset, blamed me for bad mouthing her and soon packed and left.




If telling the truth about her is bad mouthing her, then she should probably rethink her actions. But it is easier to blame you I guess.


Good thing you told him that she has a new guy in an age appropriate way while she was trying some PG bull**** about issues and separation. Good for you.


----------



## Chaparral

Thank you for not lying to your son. Sooner rather than later you will see the value in that.


----------



## 86857

Hantei said:


> The short version is (I'm not going to mention what has been said between me and my son and his reaction - I want to keep him out if this). I have asked her not to accompany me to the airport as I don't like her company atm. She agreed. On my way home I told him there are issues, we are separating so he demanded explanation straight after we arrived home. She started to give a PG+ version "we are having issues, need to spend time apart, we both love you". I couldn't hold it and just said "the truth is your mum has another man in her life and is moving out to stay with her parents". He locked himself in his room. STBXW got extremely upset, blamed me for bad mouthing her and soon packed and left.


Exactly the right thing to do - you told him the truth. 
Otherwise there would be even more pain ahead for him when he found out that he had been effectively lied to. 
It's known as trickle-truthing.


----------



## eric1

You told him the truth and treated him like an adult. The fallout of this will be a magnificent clusterf**k but guess what? 

1. Not an ounce of this is your fault
2. The fallout will be severe but he'll grow up to be a good person who most importantly has trust in atleast one of his parents.

All you can do is do everything you can for him : "obviously neither of us want to be here, but all I can promise you is that you come first."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Great job not letting her bold faced lie to your son. Be his rock.


----------



## Iver

Good for you. He deserves the truth - age appropriate of course. 

Don't allow for a second any "we grew apart" or "it just happens" nonsense to be put out as the truth to your son. Plain English, she has a boyfriend and marriage is two people, not three. 

Don't allow her to introduce your son to the POSOM as a "new friend" either. Make sure he knows who this person is from the get go.


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> STBXW got extremely upset, blamed me for bad mouthing her and soon packed and left.


This is straight out of the book. 

Next is a tearful phone call that it all could have been worked out between you if only you had not told your son. 

Delusional


----------



## Iver

ing said:


> This is straight out of the book.
> 
> Next is a tearful phone call that it all could have been worked out between you if only you had not told your son.
> 
> Delusional


I'd be curious what she thought would happen, if she thought at all. I suspect her husband was supposed to quietly leave and the OM moves into the house. Everyone is friends of course, with the husband coming by to fix leaky faucets when needed...

The level of self absorption and delusion is unfortunately quite common. The truth is the best weapon against this.


----------



## weightlifter

Hantei.

1) Save all this stuff in two clouds and two thumb drives, one in possession of someone of unquestioned loyalty.
2) Do NOT expect anything but loyalty to their own daughter from you ex MIL/FIL. Dont blame them either.
3) DO blame your "friends" trying to say you drove her into an affair.
4) You remind me alot of a combination of BFF (the you part) and puzzleddad (the kid part really) (from Loveshack or SI? I forget) Might suggest reading them. BFF is a horrible start with an epic ending. His life has take a wonderful turn. Puzzleddad is ongoing and he does not post too much but the kid reaction was similar except he has two kids. His wife also went straight out of the marriage for loverboy.


----------



## Hantei

eric1 said:


> All you can do is do everything you can for him : "obviously neither of us want to be here, but all I can promise you is that you come first."


Great way to put it - I'll use that


----------



## Hantei

ing said:


> This is straight out of the book.
> 
> Next is a tearful phone call that it all could have been worked out between you if only you had not told your son.
> 
> Delusional


I am getting a fair bit of that- like her message yesterday. Before that it was that we could have tried to work it out if not my stone hearted and unemotional approach. Now it is the fact that I've told our son without giving her a chance to soften the blow.

At times it feels like she's shocked I'm not "fighting for it". At times I fell shocked I'm not doing that myself. To my defence I just can't bring myself to do it after reading these messages between them.


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> I am getting a fair bit of that- like her message yesterday. Before that it was that we could have tried to work it out if not my stone hearted and unemotional approach. Now it is the fact that I've told our son without giving her a chance to soften the blow.
> 
> At times it feels like she's shocked I'm not "fighting for it". At times I fell shocked I'm not doing that myself. To my defence I just can't bring myself to do it after reading these messages between them.


It's because she still puts herself first. That is rule #1 for cheaters. 

I guarantee her calls to him the day before last weren't for phone sex, it was about how crazy you are. That's how people like her operate.


----------



## Hantei

Iver said:


> I'd be curious what she thought would happen, if she thought at all. I suspect her husband was supposed to quietly leave and the OM moves into the house. Everyone is friends of course, with the husband coming by to fix leaky faucets when needed...


I'm certain now she was (and probably is) assuming that it will go down like this: she informs me when she is "ready" whatever it means. Not when I caught her. I do some modest pick me up dance (quote from somewhere in TAM). She feels for me and loves me but not in love with me. We cry on each other's shoulder, she moves on, I'm happy for her, we are happy friends and patents.

Would have worked if she'd do this in a right order - end the marriage, love another man, sleep with him. Not in reverse order.


----------



## Hantei

1) done. Paper copies fade over time
2) I do not. We were never that close anyway. 
3) I can understand them, we have been seen as a model couple. Time will tell if they are real friends. 
4) will try to find these threads. Is BFF the guy who just moved into the new house? I think I checked his story in 2014. Will be happy to read a happy ended story.



weightlifter said:


> Hantei.
> 
> 1) Save all this stuff in two clouds and two thumb drives, one in possession of someone of unquestioned loyalty.
> 2) Do NOT expect anything but loyalty to their own daughter from you ex MIL/FIL. Dont blame them either.
> 3) DO blame your "friends" trying to say you drove her into an affair.
> 4) You remind me alot of a combination of BFF (the you part) and puzzleddad (the kid part really) (from Loveshack or SI? I forget) Might suggest reading them. BFF is a horrible start with an epic ending. His life has take a wonderful turn. Puzzleddad is ongoing and he does not post too much but the kid reaction was similar except he has two kids. His wife also went straight out of the marriage for loverboy.


----------



## Dyokemm

Hantei said:


> I am getting a fair bit of that- like her message yesterday. Before that it was that we could have tried to work it out if not my stone hearted and unemotional approach. Now it is the fact that I've told our son without giving her a chance to soften the blow.
> 
> At times it feels like she's shocked I'm not "fighting for it". At times I fell shocked I'm not doing that myself. To my defence I just can't bring myself to do it after reading these messages between them.


Typical cheater craziness.

WTF do they possibly think could 'soften the blow' that one of their parents is a f*cking backstabbing traitor to the other and has just blown the child's family apart for their own selfish desires?

Only a complete idiot could think there is a way to make this OK, or even sound better.


----------



## Dyokemm

"I'm happy for her, we are happy friends and patents."

My favorite cheater fantasy....."We can stay friends."


----------



## bfree

dyokemm said:


> "i'm happy for her, we are happy friends and patents."
> 
> my favorite cheater fantasy....."we can stay friends."


----------



## Be smart

You did the right thing telling your son the truth and stop thinking bad of yourself because you never hurt your son,your wife did. 
She will blame you for this one and she will blame other people too because cheaters think they are always right,no matter what.

When she gets ready to talk you should tell her you are going out with friends. Ofc. you can spend your time with your son or watching some football games but dont "play to her tunes". 

Stay strong my friend.


----------



## eric1

Read the spaceghost007 thread on SI. It's an inspiration.

The mods there once threatened to ban me if I referenced it again (it was part of a rather standard template response). It's a shining example of not taking **** and drawing STRONG firm lines


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> I am getting a fair bit of that- like her message yesterday. Before that it was that we could have tried to work it out if not my stone hearted and unemotional approach. Now it is the fact that I've told our son without giving her a chance to soften the blow.
> 
> At times it feels like she's shocked I'm not "fighting for it". At times I fell shocked I'm not doing that myself. To my defence I just can't bring myself to do it after reading these messages between them.


When a cheater is up against the ropes, what they want more than anything is CONTROL. She cannot handle the fact that she has lost control of this 50 ton bus on ice skids....

To gain that control back she will blame-shift, gaslight and lie her fvcking ass off to anyone and everyone who will listen to her. She is desperate, and desperate people do crazy **** to get back control. 

You haven't seen anything yet. You haven't even begun to plumb the depths of her looniness. That is why you need to expose, get your legal ducks in a row, separate your assets and go as dark as you can on her.


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> At times I fell shocked I'm not doing that myself. To my defence I just can't bring myself to do it after reading these messages between them.


I know what you mean about being shocked by your own responses. I am a mild mannered and generally accommodating person. When I was in your situation I too hit the big red emergency stop button on the relationship. Your Stbxw has bumped up against a solid boundary. She has disrespected you, your son and the relationship you had. She is still telling you that it is something she has to do. 

You know what. My attitude to this has changed from one of appeasement and compromise to one of .. well..
"You want to go? You can fck right off then"


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> I'm certain now she was (and probably is) assuming that it will go down like this: she informs me when she is "ready" whatever it means. Not when I caught her. I do some modest pick me up dance (quote from somewhere in TAM). She feels for me and loves me but not in love with me. We cry on each other's shoulder, she moves on, I'm happy for her, we are happy friends and patents.
> 
> Would have worked if she'd do this in a right order - end the marriage, love another man, sleep with him. Not in reverse order.


You are hitting everything out of the park since the past few days...


----------



## JohnA

@sparrow555 it seems like he is hittmg eveything out of the park since day one. As to we could have.... the best response: 

"yes we could have if she had at least said and offered: I do not see a future for us because, but I will stop seeing him for six months, we will go to a MC, we will have a unfiled divorce settlement on hand, we will establish goals, if after six months I still feel this way I will file. But she didn't even give me that. 

My personal experience with my ex in this matter: one month in a nephew said it seemed I didn't care and hadn't even tried. My sense was that was the story of the week she was peddling. You might say this to her: My response was "the other person has to offer at least a sliver hope, what you are asking me is why didn't I fight for her. You fight to protect and defend your spouse. You fight to create a better environment for the marriage. You don't demand a dual to the death with the OM with the winner riding off with the fair maiden into the sunset and living happier ever after. She has to end it with OM and ask me to try now. Not after things don't work out. 

To your son and friends stress issues are issues, adultery is adultery and repeat the above. 

On my DDay I told her she had two options: end it with him an email saying never to contact her again and go to MC and rebuild or divorce. You have two hours and I left. When I got home I asked for her decision. She said she didn't know. My response was no decision is a decision to want to stay with him. Again she respond I don't know. I shrugged and said I understood I will get in touch tomorrow with a lawyer to get the ball rolling. One month later paper done and I had bought her out of the house, four months later she was out of the house. I did collect rent from her for the three months I gave her to find a place.


----------



## Hantei

sparrow555 said:


> You are hitting everything out of the park since the past few days...


Hey Sparrow, not sure I understand what you are saying here.


----------



## Hantei

@eric1 - I will read the story. 




bandit.45 said:


> You haven't seen anything yet. You haven't even begun to plumb the depths of her looniness. That is why you need to expose, get your legal ducks in a row, separate your assets and go as dark as you can on her.


 @bandit.45 - now I am worried, seriously.


----------



## Sports Fan

Mate sorry you are going through this. If you need advice on issues PM me. With my field of work i'd be happy to explain Child Support, Centrelink, Family Tax etc so you have a leg up. Cause as Ing rightly pointed out your ex can cause all sorts of headaches if she gets in and claims first.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> Hey Sparrow, not sure I understand what you are saying here.


It was a compliment.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> Hey Sparrow, not sure I understand what you are saying here.


You know/play cricket, don't you ? 

What would hitting the ball out of the park be ?


----------



## Hantei

sparrow555 said:


> You know/play cricket, don't you ?
> 
> What would hitting the ball out of the park be ?


I hate cricket and will never understand it. Guys spending whole day in the field doing literally nothing. And wearing all white when they have to duck andl dive? 

And before you ask- I'm not a fan of footy and NRL either.

Anyway I thought it's a baseball thing.

On a serious note - assuming it was a compliment- I'm not doing great at all. Have never experienced these emotions and fighting urges to call her and ask to come home many times per day. I just cannot allow my family to see me defeated so TAM is the only place for me to vent.


----------



## JohnA

You are doing well. Some posters go though months of indecision others a year or more. The entire tome not taking the steps to protect themselves and not doing the things that needed to rebuild there lives, living in a limbo with no real way out.

Yes emotionally you are a mess, but you are now in a place that you have two viable options to choose from. 

Option 1: You are in the home with primary custody and financial issues settled. You have a solid foundation to rebuild a new life. The boat you kept is a first step and provides an opportunity to bond with your son. 

Option 2: if at some point in the future if a possibility of reconciliation occurs you will be already grounded and not feel pressured between unknown or reconciliation at anyway possible.

You do need to acknowledge the pain and the grief this has caused you to your son and other members of your family with out being a wreck, wearing you heart on your sleeve, or throwing yourself a pity party. Your son at times will be down. Tell him you understand his pain, you share it too.


----------



## Hantei

Sports Fan said:


> Mate sorry you are going through this. If you need advice on issues PM me. With my field of work i'd be happy to explain Child Support, Centrelink, Family Tax etc so you have a leg up. Cause as Ing rightly pointed out your ex can cause all sorts of headaches if she gets in and claims first.


Thanks mate. I think I have it under control ATM (all your previous advice has been taken into account) but I'll gladly PM if I run into issues.

Apologies to everyone, I'm deliberately vague on legal details... just in case, you know.


----------



## eric1

You're going to feel AWFUL. It's all completely normal, if you didn't feel anything there would be a problem.

Take positive healing steps - focus on your kid, work on yourself (exercise, IC), maintain NC except for child-related, expose to friends family and her boyfriends fiancée (so you're not caring a millstone around your neck). 

Basically keep _doing_


----------



## SunCMars

Sorry you are here.

Off topic, what kind of boat? Inboard motor or outboard? Are you going to use it in rivers and lakes, or the ocean.

I have a 22ft Boston Whaler, center console. Love the damn thing. Only problem, there is no head {pooper}. Men can hang it over the side, women.....no!

I do have a porta-potty stored in one of the compartments {up front....Bow} for the other need. Women can use this, if they are not shy and if the men turn their backs.

My 22 ft boat would be OK, near the ocean shore. It has been in the Florida coastal waters. Going out beyond five miles, or so, uh-uh!


----------



## SunCMars

G.J. said:


> I'm beginning to think there should be a health warning on women
> 
> 'when reaching age 40 or there about's handle with caution
> 
> If goods are shaken may explode with messy fallout'


Good One! But, butter better:

You got it backwards. You can shake the daylight out of good(s).

It is the bad(s) that self-abort when shaken! The ugly goo on the inside spurts ooooot. Unabridged taint on display. No longer two-toned but monotone in the flesh.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Hantei said:


> *I hate cricket* and will never understand it. Guys spending whole day in the field doing literally nothing. And wearing all white when they have to duck andl dive?
> 
> And before you ask- I'm not a fan of footy and NRL either.
> 
> Anyway I thought it's a baseball thing.
> 
> On a serious note - assuming it was a compliment- I'm not doing great at all. Have never experienced these emotions and fighting urges to call her and ask to come home many times per day. I just cannot allow my family to see me defeated so TAM is the only place for me to vent.


:surprise::surprise: Bite your tongue!!! An Aussie that hates cricket!

How could you ? I am in tears.

The white reflects the sunlight so you don't get overly heated.

But… the skill - straight bat, footwork, eye on the ball, swinging the ball, spinning the ball, flighting the ball, bouncing the ball, field placement, aggressive fielding, tactics, one day vs limited over vs test … how could you not find all this exciting ????


----------



## weightlifter

Hantei said:


> 1) done. Paper copies fade over time
> 2) I do not. We were never that close anyway.
> 3) I can understand them, we have been seen as a model couple. Time will tell if they are real friends.
> 4) will try to find these threads. Is BFF the guy who just moved into the new house? I think I checked his story in 2014. Will be happy to read a happy ended story.


3) Will be the test of if they are real friends. Them seeing you as a role model is not a reason to be a door mat. Expectations of such are unrealistic to say the least.

Found puzzleddad. He is on Loveshack. Title: Am I being unreasonable? Not as much a pick me up as user BFF here so I reccommend BFF much more, but he reminds me of you and your situation. Wife went straight out with OM. Worried dad. Kids initially pizzed though only at mom. Star kids. Realized the situation and adapted, etc.


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> I hate cricket and will never understand it. Guys spending whole day in the field doing literally nothing. And wearing all white when they have to duck andl dive?
> 
> And before you ask- I'm not a fan of footy and NRL either.
> 
> Anyway I thought it's a baseball thing.
> 
> On a serious note - assuming it was a compliment- I'm not doing great at all. Have never experienced these emotions and fighting urges to call her and ask to come home many times per day. I just cannot allow my family to see me defeated so TAM is the only place for me to vent.



It can be a baseball or a cricket thing. Works either way.


I thought the Big bash leagues was getting pretty popular in Australia..


----------



## G.J.

Hantei said:


> I hate cricket and will never understand it. Guys spending whole day in the field doing literally nothing. And wearing all white when they have to duck andl dive?
> 
> .


Hope this explanation helps Hantei

You have two sides, one out in the field and one in.

Each man that’s in the side that’s in goes out, and when he’s out he comes in and the next man goes in until he’s out.

When they are all out, the side that’s out comes in and the side that’s been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out.

Sometimes you get men still in and not out.

When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in.

There are two men called umpires who stay out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out.

When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!

.

Hope that simple explanation helped


----------



## Hantei

@eric1 - Thanks, great advice as usual. Only are you sure you are not taking me for someone else? I mean I do not know the exact relatinship status of the SOB yet alone if he is engaged. I'd gladly expose if I somehow learn it; actually I'm questioning this move - assuming my STBXW is planning futur with him this will make her (and separation) hostile, will it not?
@SunCMars - don't get me started! My upcoming divorce is nothing comparing to the hull selection! Lol. It will be a US-built 6+m (having troubles with imperial) centre console (Yellowfin). You see we have a very few fiberglass boat builders here (Haines, Cruisecraft, etc) and very few of them make good CC's. So I have oprdered a bare hull from US and will be fitting it locally - with twin outboards (Suzuki or Merc's). Love Boston Whalers - we used to have a good local marina selling them but the owner died in sailing accident and it went down. It (Yellowfin) has a loo in the console but that is for the ladies, me and the kid prefer swimming ladder  Since I have no lady to sail with anynmore I'll probably ditch it. I'm going 20+ mile sout for tuna in season.
@manfromlamancha - Yep, you're right. This stuff bores me (and the son is the same - traded cricket for basketball in school PE). I als hate vegemite and think our politivcal system with constant revolving door of PM's is a joke.

@GJ and Sparrow. - I'm a tough nut to convert. Thanks for the explanation. Just not m,y type of sport I guess. GJ - you seem to be from UK, so your #1 must me soccer (football) right? 
@weightlifter - puzzleddadNN stry is epic. Similar to mine in a way. My son is clealry in the anger stage and feels betrayed and void. 

She showed up yesterday and was learly shaken by my son's reaction (think she's got 5 years older look instantly). She has also admitted that she did not expect me proceeding woth formal steps so quickly (we have discussed some of it). Asked if she can stay in the spare bedroom as she has early start tomorrow (today). I admit I was so tempted to agree but after reading some stories here (and re-reading soem of the messages) managed to suggest that we (especially the son) need to start getting used to the new arrangement ASAP. So she left. The wrid thing was that her mother was constantly texting her and calling her all the time. Is she worried about her, supprting her, or thinks I'll do something stupid?

Sorry, it turned to be a journal for me.


----------



## bandit.45

I think you are doing great Hantei. Stay strong for your son. It is good for him to see his father stand for what is right and not be taken advantage of.


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> @eric1 - Thanks, great advice as usual. Only are you sure you are not taking me for someone else? I mean I do not know the exact relatinship status of the SOB yet alone if he is engaged. I'd gladly expose if I somehow learn it; actually I'm questioning this move - assuming my STBXW is planning futur with him this will make her (and separation) hostile, will it not?
> 
> 
> @SunCMars - don't get me started! My upcoming divorce is nothing comparing to the hull selection! Lol. It will be a US-built 6+m (having troubles with imperial) centre console (Yellowfin). You see we have a very few fiberglass boat builders here (Haines, Cruisecraft, etc) and very few of them make good CC's. So I have oprdered a bare hull from US and will be fitting it locally - with twin outboards (Suzuki or Merc's). Love Boston Whalers - we used to have a good local marina selling them but the owner died in sailing accident and it went down. It (Yellowfin) has a loo in the console but that is for the ladies, me and the kid prefer swimming ladder  Since I have no lady to sail with anynmore I'll probably ditch it. I'm going 20+ mile sout for tuna in season.
> 
> 
> @manfromlamancha - Yep, you're right. This stuff bores me (and the son is the same - traded cricket for basketball in school PE). I als hate vegemite and think our politivcal system with constant revolving door of PM's is a joke.
> 
> 
> 
> @GJ and Sparrow. - I'm a tough nut to convert. Thanks for the explanation. Just not m,y type of sport I guess. GJ - you seem to be from UK, so your #1 must me soccer (football) right?
> 
> 
> @weightlifter - puzzleddadNN stry is epic. Similar to mine in a way. My son is clealry in the anger stage and feels betrayed and void.
> 
> 
> 
> She showed up yesterday and was learly shaken by my son's reaction (think she's got 5 years older look instantly). She has also admitted that she did not expect me proceeding woth formal steps so quickly (we have discussed some of it). Asked if she can stay in the spare bedroom as she has early start tomorrow (today). I admit I was so tempted to agree but after reading some stories here (and re-reading soem of the messages) managed to suggest that we (especially the son) need to start getting used to the new arrangement ASAP. So she left. The wrid thing was that her mother was constantly texting her and calling her all the time. Is she worried about her, supprting her, or thinks I'll do something stupid?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, it turned to be a journal for me.



I could be mistaking you for someone else, but my advice remains the same nonetheless.

Exposure is almost ALWAYS the best path. She is a cheater, she comes first. If you expose him she will get pissed because she feels entitled to that power, but there are hundreds of other things she will be pissed off about more than that. By exposing you're signalling that you're done playing games. It helps cut through the bull**** that will most assuredly be popping up.


----------



## JohnA

She asked to stay? On an earlier post I said there would be plenty to discuss the whys and hoe to rebuild your life after you got your household in order. Now is that time. 

Why was she surprised you acted so quickly? Perhaps you should ask her why she didn't? Read this tread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/306482-whats-worst-thing-about-infidelity.html write some of the responses that resonant with you. Then ask her did she really think you wouldn't feel these things. Not in a poor me fashion, but in a simple request for information. 


Read His Needs-Her Needs and the five love languages. They will help you build a better relationship with your next girlfriend.


----------



## ing

JohnA said:


> She asked to stay?


She can not stay. She can not be involved in your life because she is with another guy. End of story.

She will probably try to tell you as soon as she believes you have enough physical distance that it is over with the other guy. 
Do not believe this. 

It is coming the other guy frantically trying to put this affair back in the shadows convincing your STBXw that they should take a break for a while for things to cool down. 

Keep looking for this guy. He will keep trying to get her to engage you for as long as he thinks he can get away with this. It took me 12 months to find and partially verify that I had found the Other Mans Wife. 

He had told my ExW that he was in the process of Divorce. It turned out that she had no idea about this and had been gaslighted into going into counseling with OM for 7 months. She reacted swiftly and kicked him out. 

It was epic to watch the fallout.

PM me his phone number. I will find him.


----------



## 86857

Wanting you to stay at the house, with a very lame excuse was either:

- can't get used to the fact that she doesn't live there anymore 
- or to get a chance to soften you up so that she does better financially, e.g. she ends up living in the house rather than you? Has she argued about financials yet?
- or maybe, and I stress 'maybe', an attempt, half-assed, to start R. She isn't saying 'sure let's sign the papers' either. 
- mb OM has cold feet now that you found out.

Try to find a list on TAM of what WS needs to do in R, add your own requirements to it - just to have it ready if she starts talking about R & see her reaction when you present it to her. Out of sheer curiosity if you have zero interest in R. If you have zero interest, her reaction might confirm you made the right choice not to do R. 

Txts/calls to her Mum tells me MIL is working with her moment by moment, in this case literally, on whatever STBX is planning. Do they usually text/talk a lot? 
I doubt MIL is worried you would 'do' something, especially as your son is there. 

BUT, you are missing crucial info. You need EVERYTHING on OM, has he a wife/gf?, is he well off & if not could he be a gold-digger - yep, believe me, it happens to women too, the status of the A etc etc. 
Maybe spend the money on a PI, unless you are very good on the techie side. Check snooping posts on here, @weightlifter for one. 

If you have no interest in R at all, then I don't think any of the above is necessary. 
EXCEPT the info on AP - exposure should be done & AP's wife/gf told if he has one. And yes, maybe wait until legal papers are signed for that. 

Good luck.


----------



## Hantei

Look, I'm sorry for flooding this forum with mundane details of my "past D-day" life. Please feel free to tell me to just shut up.

As nothing substantial has happend since my last post I would like to respond to yours and also to attempt to clarify some vague wording on my side. Before I go there:
@bandit.45 - thank you. I like youir no-nonsense approach.
@eric1 - correct, your advice is great and valuable. I was just not sure where references to his fiancee are coming from. I wish I knew if he is engaged and to whom.
@JohnA - thanks, not sure I understand your last post? I will read the thread quoted but ATM I'm at the stage I need to know very little from her. When I feel like I do - I just re-read their messages, which leave very little room for misinterpretation.
@ing - thanks. I will adress some of your points below.
@********** - ditto. Great inside and sounds consistent with what I'm thinking. See below.

Now, on her "staying". I worded this poorly. She did not wantor offer to stay "with me", discuss issues, give me some needed "why" answers or anything like that. She just said that she is facing a long drive to her parents (not really that long), she has an early start next day, that she misses the home and time with "family". That this is one night only and she will be sleeping in a spare bedroom (she somehow managed to make it look like it is I who is demanding for her to use the spare bedroom. Weird.) I confess I was so tempted to say 'yes' and had to remind myself about my favourite quotes from their messaging. Now I regret I didn't ask her "how would your current boyfriend react to the fact you spent a night under the same roof with me". In any case she looked totally shocked by the rejection. Complained I'm "showing her the door". Spent approx. 15 minutes sitting still in her car before driving away. She is now (or at least can be) with "most sensual man she's ever met". Go figure.

She is very close with her mother and used to be influenced by her in our early years. She used to have at least 2-3 phone calls per week with her normally. Checked phone records and it was her mother BTW. So it look like (agreeing with **********) her mother is guiding her... to what outcome?

I know the SOB name, phone number, place of work etc. All obtained from legal/public sources. I just don't know his relaionship status (apart from affair with my STBXW). He is doing OK but not well off (definitelly not much better wthan me). But I don't see any gold diging potential on either side - my STBXW won;t be beter off financially with him (unless he's suddenly got an inheritance) and her income alone is modest. He has not have a steady career (tried many things based on Linkedin and ended up as the sales person/account manager for a 5-6 man business)nor does he seem to have a degree. So workplace exposrue is out of question. I don;t know how and when they met for the 1st time. There was a message from him that he "regrets all these years they have missed" but this can be interpreted either way.

I'm not yet sold on exposure to his partner - even when or if I find her (there are pictures of him with the women on social media, that's it, no info). I don't have an FB account. I did process and apperciate your guidance on the matter and no saying "no" to the concept just not now. Will try to find any info on her but will pick this card up my sleeve untill legal amtters are sorted or - as eric1 suggested - until she gets pissed anyway, whichever comes 1st. So does my (second) lawyer say.


----------



## weltschmerz

G.J. said:


> Hope this explanation helps Hantei
> 
> You have two sides, one out in the field and one in.
> 
> Each man that’s in the side that’s in goes out, and when he’s out he comes in and the next man goes in until he’s out.
> 
> When they are all out, the side that’s out comes in and the side that’s been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out.
> 
> Sometimes you get men still in and not out.
> 
> When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in.
> 
> There are two men called umpires who stay out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out.
> 
> When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!
> 
> .
> 
> Hope that simple explanation helped


I just read that in John Cleese's voice. Fascinating.

That's an ODI you describe, Gj. Rinse and repeat that for 2 innings per team or 5 days straight with frequent breaks in play for tying your shoelaces and you get a thoroughly exciting game at the end of which I feel like stabbing myself with the wickets. Extreme sport indeed.

But seriously, an aussie who's not into cricket, footy or NRL? What?Wombat hunting, maybe? Or is it because we won the Ashes last year?


----------



## G.J.

>

Speaking of the devil......anything going down any time soon


----------



## TX-SC

You seem to be doing well given your situation. Along with that CC you should also pick up a couple of fishing kayaks. It's an absolute blast! I have owned several CC and bass boats through the years. I ditched them all for kayaks. 

Keep your head up and don't let the STBXW get you down. Enjoy your new freedom and enjoy that boat. Have you thought of taking up mountain biking with your son? Great exercise and a heck of a lot of fun!


----------



## Graywolf2

Hantei said:


> I don't get it - every aspect of the marriage was great or so I thought, we've had a great night out 2 days before I've got that voice mail (hers not mine), never lived from a paycheck to a paycheck, travelling together, you name it.


Your wife seems to be surprised, confused and even hurt by you not begging her to work on your marriage. I take that as conformation that your marriage was fine. If the marriage was bad then your reaction would be reasonable to her. Who wants to keep a bad thing going? 

I think that your wife was having the time of her life with two men wanting her. She had you as a friend for stability and the OM for excitement. Everything was positive for her. It wasn’t a dirty affair because she loved the OM. She was going to run off with the OM *SOMEDAY* but not today. She was living on a bubble that couldn’t be maintained. 

Now for the first time she’s paying a price and coming down from her high.



Hantei said:


> In any case she looked totally shocked by the rejection. Complained I'm "showing her the door". Spent approx. 15 minutes sitting still in her car before driving away. She is now (or at least can be) with "most sensual man she's ever met". Go figure.


Being with the OM isn’t nearly as fun as it used to be. Before they were star crossed lovers making plans for their great future during their few stolen moments. Now she sees her real future and realized that there is no going back. You were so dependable and your marriage was so good that she thought she could count on you as her plan B no matter what she did. You just rocked her world.


----------



## sparrow555

How is your son doing ?


----------



## Hantei

@weltschmerz - riding kangaroos and throwing shrimps on a barbie.

@TX-SC - I used to own kayaks but these days we like to go offshore. BTW that was my kid preference. Thanks a lot, however, I'll check them in the garage. Also, your advice wrt sports is spot on. FYI, I have been doing certain sport for 25+ years, my son picked it up as well, so we are training together, he competes and I'm his coach 

@graywolf - thank you that is the explanation that does explain my reality in a rational way. It is also ego stroking I admit. At the same time there is no hint on any R from her side so no matter how I hate it I'm moving forward and on.

Edit: just missed this initially: *It wasn’t a dirty affair because she loved the OM.*. Is there a double-like button? This is word for word what she was writing to the SOB. That she "regrets hurting [Hantei and son] and rushing into the new relationship but at the end of days it's the right thing to do because we (STBXW and SOB) share a true love and deep emotional bonds. It will work out for all of us."


@sparrow555 - not very good. His life as he knew it from day one does not exist anymore. He's not upset with me that much though.


----------



## sparrow555




----------



## Chaparral

You just need to find a woman that isn't into girly men.


----------



## 86857

Sensual? the years we missed? = The 'fog'. They don't even know each other yet. They're missing the road sign that says "REALITY AHEAD". 

You guys met young, unlikely they knew each other before. If she was 'unhappy', maybe she went on a dating site? Hence the randomness. 

PI to find OM's gf/fiance & details/status of A - if you want to know. Knowledge is power. 

Misses time with the family she trashed? YOU not prepared to work on it & showed her the door.:wtf:WS think we BS are doormats.

Put it back on her. Tell her that she hasn't volunteered what she would do to work on R. Hence you have nothing much to say about it. 

Keep your hard line approach going, to show her you're not a doormat. 

From what I see on TAM, few BS do the bootcamp hard line. I didn't & paid a high price. 
Kudos for that :smthumbup:


----------



## Graywolf2

Hantei said:


> she "regrets hurting [Hantei and son] and rushing into the new relationship but at the end of days it's the right thing to do because we (STBXW and SOB) share a true love and deep emotional bonds. It will work out for all of us."
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> His (son’s) life as he knew it from day one does not exist anymore. He's not upset with me that much though.



The above is going to be a problem with your STBXW's future life with the OM. Your marriage was fine and you probably would have grown old together if it were not for the introduction of the love of her life soul mate OM. There is no way around the fact the OM broke up your son’s family and ended the life he knew. 

How does your STBXW expect your son to relate to OM (SOB)? Shake his hand?

If they can most WW’s with an OM they want to marry try to keep their affair secret and then meet the OM after the divorce is final. Then they publicly start to date and fall in love. If they’re caught before the divorce they have a different story. They say that the marriage was already dead so that the OM played no part in breaking up the family. Your wife has blown both of those stories.


----------



## Hantei

Right now you are correct regarding my son. ATM he wants to kick OM's balls out. Doesn't want to see his grandparents (her side).

We had a huge mobile network outage yesterday. STBXW was at home at that time as per the arrangement. Only we didn't know it's global outage. So she has been left without a phone or mobile network for the night. Actually it was somehow funny. Because this was always my duty to keep everything functioning including comms and obviously I was not in the mood to offer help. Was she trying to call OM or her mother? Don't know but she didn't want to use landline (voip) to call OM/MIL and with our provider if you don't know exactly what to say you'll spend hours listening to the music and useless info. She asked my son for help (he's tech savy). He suggested to check who can fix it faster - me or the "boyfriend". She didn't like it. At the end she admitted that now when she's living alone (at her parents granny flat) she realizes how much of that stuff she ddidn't have to deal with. 

Wonder when she's going to move in with SOB now?





Graywolf2 said:


> How does your STBXW expect your son to relate to OM (SOB)? Shake his hand?
> 
> If they can most WW’s with an OM they want to marry try to keep their affair secret and then meet the OM after the divorce is final. Then they publicly start to date and fall in love. If they’re caught before the divorce they have a different story. They say that the marriage was already dead so that the OM played no part in breaking up the family. Your wife has blown both of those stories.


----------



## Sports Fan

Hantei said:


> Right now you are correct regarding my son. ATM he wants to kick OM's balls out. Doesn't want to see his grandparents (her side).
> 
> We had a huge mobile network outage yesterday. STBXW was at home at that time as per the arrangement. Only we didn't know it's global outage. So she has been left without a phone or mobile network for the night. Actually it was somehow funny. Because this was always my duty to keep everything functioning including comms and obviously I was not in the mood to offer help. Was she trying to call OM or her mother? Don't know but she didn't want to use landline (voip) to call OM/MIL and with our provider if you don't know exactly what to say you'll spend hours listening to the music and useless info. She asked my son for help (he's tech savy). He suggested to check who can fix it faster - me or the "boyfriend". She didn't like it. At the end she admitted that now when she's living alone (at her parents granny flat) she realizes how much of that stuff she ddidn't have to deal with.
> 
> Wonder when she's going to move in with SOB now?


Her realising things is just the beginning. As time goes by she will learn more and more just how much you did for her and how easy she had it.


----------



## JohnA

She will also realize that she short changed herself in the settlement. Expect push back on that front.


----------



## Hantei

Didn't even think about dating sites. Geez she must've been reallybored. Any point in trying to find out?




********** said:


> Sensual? the years we missed? = The 'fog'. They don't even know each other yet. They're missing the road sign that says "REALITY A
> HEAD".
> 
> You guys met young, unlikely they knew each other before. If she was 'unhappy', maybe she went on a dating site? Hence the randomness.
> 
> PI to find OM's gf/fiance & details/status of A - if you want to know. Knowledge is power.
> 
> Misses time with the family she trashed? YOU not prepared to work on it & showed her the door.:wtf:WS think we BS are doormats.
> 
> Put it back on her. Tell her that she hasn't volunteered what she would do to work on R. Hence you have nothing much to say about it.
> 
> Keep your hard line approach going, to show her you're not a doormat.
> 
> From what I see on TAM, few BS do the bootcamp hard line. I didn't & paid a high price.
> Kudos for that :smthumbup:


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> Didn't even think about dating sites. Geez she must've been reallybored. Any point in trying to find out?


Not really. Save yourself some time and aggravation and assume worst case.


----------



## Hantei

GusPolinski said:


> Not really. Save yourself some time and aggravation and assume worst case.


Worst case for me would be if she used to know him for years. .. and I just wasn't aware.


----------



## Iver

Hantei said:


> ...ATM he wants to kick OM's balls out...


While I admire the sentiment your son needs to be told jail is not somewhere he ever wants to end up.

I'd have a very serious discussion with him about this probably pretty soon. I have to point out people have died from getting punched. Falling back and cracking ones head against the ground could lead to very serious injuries.

I'd have a talk with your STBXW about this as well. Let her know what the situation is and what the consequences could be. The problem is when someone is in LaLa land consequences don't exist. I can easily see her introducing your son to the OM the day after you tell her what a bad idea (and her agreeing) that would be.

Hopefully I'm tilting at windmills here but better safe than sorry.


----------



## eric1

Wait, can you clarify... she hhad a physical relationship that supposedly ended four years ago, and the only confirmed contact since then were the three phone calls made after DDay 3 (or 4, I can't really keep track)?


----------



## tech-novelist

ing said:


> This is straight out of the book.
> 
> Next is a tearful phone call that it all could have been worked out between you if only you had not told your son.
> 
> Delusional


I wonder if anyone has ever written that book down. It might be a best-seller!


----------



## tech-novelist

Hantei said:


> I hate cricket and will never understand it. Guys spending whole day in the field doing literally nothing. And wearing all white when they have to duck andl dive?
> 
> And before you ask- I'm not a fan of footy and NRL either.
> 
> Anyway I thought it's a baseball thing.
> 
> On a serious note - assuming it was a compliment- I'm not doing great at all. Have never experienced these emotions and fighting urges to call her and ask to come home many times per day. I just cannot allow my family to see me defeated so TAM is the only place for me to vent.


It is a baseball thing in the US, anyway. It is a very high compliment, I think largely because (as far as I know) it's almost impossible to hit a ball out of the park in a modern baseball stadium. To do that, even a fabulous athlete has to connect with everything he has, just at the right time and place.

And as a famous writer once said (to paraphrase), "Courage is not a lack of fear; it's persistence in the face of fear."


----------



## Hantei

eric1 said:


> Wait, can you clarify... she hhad a physical relationship that supposedly ended four years ago, and the only confirmed contact since then were the three phone calls made after DDay 3 (or 4, I can't really keep track)?


No, my only D-day was approx mid February and the affair was (and is) going on - I have intercepted a voice mail. And more of their messages later on. 

This in my 1st post. 

You definitely have someone else' story in mind.


----------



## Hantei

Can someone please talk me out of calling her now ? ray:


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> Can someone please talk me out of calling her now ? ray:


Hey . It is normal to want to call.. Don't . Will type more in a min.


----------



## weltschmerz

Hantei said:


> Can someone please talk me out of calling her now ? ray:


Go ahead, make my day.


No really, mate. Don't do it. Leave her to her devices. You call her now and she realises just how easy it is to keep our kid hooked.


----------



## Satya

Hantei said:


> Can someone please talk me out of calling her now ? ray:


----------



## ing

Let me just say that on the surface you are doing great. Don't think because people on this thread are talking about Baseball and cricket they don't know the extraordinary pain you in. We all know. It is horrible. 
I think the worst thing for me was the extreme loneliness. 

The one person in your world who had always been there was no longer a part of my life. It was like they had died and come back as someone who looked identical but was unrecognizable. 

So here you are on a Saturday night and your life has changed so fundamentally and radically that your mind will not accept it. You just want to go home. My marriage was twenty five years. Like you, we grew up together and like you I thought it was good, on the whole. 

Replaced in a heart beat. It is hard to comprehend. 

If you call her. .What then. She will mouth words of regret, promise things you wish she believed. Then, after you hang up she will call her new man. Tell him of her guilt, reveal all the things you said. He is her new man. You? A friend from another time.

I am sorry. It is so stupid and wasteful, it is bizarre and painful but it is what it happening and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it other than what you are doing. 

Hang in there.. PM if you want my phone number.


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> Can someone please talk me out of calling her now ? ray:


Do you want to ask her on how she could do this ?

Maybe write down all that you want to say to her.. Maybe you can decide if you want to send it to her.


----------



## 86857

DO NOT beat yourself up if you phoned her. If so, you can change your mind again anytime about what you said to her.

Maybe take the bull by the horns & set up a meeting, NOT at home - on neutral ground, cafe etc. 
Ask straight out, NO beating about the bush & DO NOT prompt her telling her what you would like her to do. Something like this: 
"Do you want R?" If she says yes then ask,
"What are you going to do to achieve it."

The underlying reason you want to phone is to see EXACTLY where she’s at, stay with OM, R with you? 

Her answer will tell you everything. If it’s clear she isn’t genuinely interested in R, it will make it much easier for you to move forward. 
You will know there will be no point phoning her. 

If she responds by trying to blame you for telling your son, or tries to put stuff back on you, just say you asked about R and aren't much interested in hearing about anything else and walk away. 

She should be begging you to take her back. I'm not getting that impression. You need to know what's in her head. 

You are in deep shock because unlike most BS on TAM, you had NO warning AT ALL. You may even have PTSD-type symptoms. 
For what it's worth, I had NO warning for my D-day either, like you, the opposite.
It might be worth seeing a doc/counsellor or a friend you can really lean on to help you get through thru this nightmare. 

Thoughts posters???


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> Can someone please talk me out of calling her now ? ray:


Don't do it. 

Embrace the suck. Discipline has gotten you far professionally; it will serve you well here also. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

********** said:


> DO NOT beat yourself up if you phoned her. If so, you can change your mind again anytime about what you said to her.
> 
> Maybe take the bull by the horns & set up a meeting, NOT at home - on neutral ground, cafe etc.
> Ask straight out, NO beating about the bush & DO NOT prompt her telling her what you would like her to do. Something like this:
> "Do you want R?" If she says yes then ask,
> "What are you going to do to achieve it."
> 
> The underlying reason you want to phone is to see EXACTLY where she’s at, stay with OM, R with you?
> 
> Her answer will tell you everything. If it’s clear she isn’t genuinely interested in R, it will make it much easier for you to move forward.
> You will know there will be no point phoning her.
> 
> If she responds by trying to blame you for telling your son, or tries to put stuff back on you, just say you asked about R and aren't much interested in hearing about anything else and walk away.
> 
> She should be begging you to take her back. I'm not getting that impression. You need to know what's in her head.
> 
> You are in deep shock because unlike most BS on TAM, you had NO warning AT ALL. You may even have PTSD-type symptoms.
> For what it's worth, I had NO warning for my D-day either, like you, the opposite.
> It might be worth seeing a doc/counsellor or a friend you can really lean on to help you get through thru this nightmare.
> 
> Thoughts posters???


No.

If she wants reconciliation, let her come to him.

But right now, there is no such indication, just some regret over her ego being damaged at him moving so fast.

Hantei, you are handling this like a champ. There may come a time to talk to her about reconciliation. That time is not now. You have been incredibly instinctive about this so far. 

You know the right thing to do. Listen to your head, not your heart; it is lying to you to try and stop the bleeding.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

Thank your all very much. Ended up not calling . Realised I have nothing to ask or discuss. You are all correct.

Thank you.


----------



## sparrow555

Why did you want to call her ?


----------



## 86857

Well done Hantei . I was hoping you hadn't but also trying to persuade you to not beat yourself up if you had! 

Glad other posters bought in as I asked them to cos it's like a damn game of poker!  @farsidejunky I think you hit the nail on the head - particularly what I've bolded in your post below cos I was wondering if it was an ego thing with her. I was even going to ask Hantei how big her ego is! 


farsidejunky said:


> No.
> 
> If she wants reconciliation, let her come to him.
> 
> But right now, there is no such indication, *just some regret over her ego being damaged at him moving so fast.*
> 
> Hantei, you are handling this like a champ. There may come a time to talk to her about reconciliation. That time is not now. You have been incredibly instinctive about this so far.
> 
> You know the right thing to do. *Listen to your head, not your heart; * it is lying to you to try and stop the bleeding.


----------



## farsidejunky

********** said:


> Well done Hantei . I was hoping you hadn't but also trying to persuade you to not beat yourself up if you had!
> 
> Glad other posters bought in as I asked them to cos it's like a damn game of poker!
> @farsidejunky I think you hit the nail on the head - particularly what I've bolded in your post below cos I was wondering if it was an ego thing with her. I was even going to ask Hantei how big her ego is!


I don't see her ego as big. I see it as more like a bucket with a large hole. She went from having one man she was certain about and one who her instincts are likely screaming at her is unsafe, to just the unsafe one. 

Hantei, her security blanket, the one she "knew" she could come back to, is no longer an option. It is a destabilizing factor for many waywards.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

Thanks mate. Great insight and that is exactly how I felt. So it did help- I would have hated myself today if I did call her yesterday. I realized that that is something I'm going through atm and she is no longer has a power to help.




ing said:


> Let me just say that on the surface you are doing great. Don't think because people on this thread are talking about Baseball and cricket they don't know the extraordinary pain you in. We all know. It is horrible.
> I think the worst thing for me was the extreme loneliness.
> 
> The one person in your world who had always been there was no longer a part of my life. It was like they had died and come back as someone who looked identical but was unrecognizable.
> 
> So here you are on a Saturday night and your life has changed so fundamentally and radically that your mind will not accept it. You just want to go home. My marriage was twenty five years. Like you, we grew up together and like you I thought it was good, on the whole.
> 
> Replaced in a heart beat. It is hard to comprehend.
> 
> If you call her. .What then. She will mouth words of regret, promise things you wish she believed. Then, after you hang up she will call her new man. Tell him of her guilt, reveal all the things you said. He is her new man. You? A friend from another time.
> 
> I am sorry. It is so stupid and wasteful, it is bizarre and painful but it is what it happening and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it other than what you are doing.
> 
> Hang in there.. PM if you want my phone number.


----------



## Hantei

sparrow555 said:


> Why did you want to call her ?


Just to hear her voice. Out of habit I guess. Was just a moment of weakness I'm now ashamed of.


----------



## Hantei

********** said:


> .
> 
> She should be begging you to take her back. I'm not getting that impression. You need to know what's in her head.



That is another thought that did help a lot. She's not and since she's spent 45 minutes yesterday on the phone with SOB they're is clearly not point in engaging her further (apart from legal matters). Plus I'd look totally pathetic calling at that time.

The only thing that surprises me - why phone if she can spend all the time with him now?


Not sure about the "ego" part and what to make out of it.


----------



## Hantei

I think I'll be visiting Bunnings (local hardware chain) very regularly from now on...




Satya said:


>


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> Just to hear her voice. Out of habit I guess. Was just a moment of weakness I'm now ashamed of.


No shame in that. You don;t stop loving someone suddenly. It takes time.


----------



## TX-SC

You are handling this situation very well. The absolute best thing you can do is simply accept facts and move on with your life.


----------



## Satya

Hantei said:


> I think I'll be visiting Bunnings (local hardware chain) very regularly from now on...


It's TAM's way of knocking sense into someone. I can't remember the user that I first saw post a picture like that. I definitely can't take the credit.

Take it from the collective experience of the board... contacting her can do no good. The scenario or conversation we have in our heads almost never plays out the way we think it will.


----------



## Hantei

I don't mind 2x4s. Actually I appreciate them - I'll certainly need more in the nearest future. Trust me I'm angry and in pain like he'll atm.

Example. I need to discuss the parenting plan with her and I'd like to have it done before Easter. Prefer to deal with that sooner rather than later . It's more or less plain vanilla and just lists what we have already agreed to on paper. There is one grey area in there - I want to limit and delay the introduction of OM to my son (assuming that she's moving towards a stable relationship with him) for as long as possible. Lawyer told me this is a grey area and I need to be polite, respectful and calm (wtf) throughout this discussion. 

I'm not sure how can I maintain that.



Satya said:


> It's TAM's way of knocking sense into someone. I can't remember the user that I first saw post a picture like that. I definitely can't take the credit.
> 
> Take it from the collective experience of the board... contacting her can do no good. The scenario or conversation we have in our heads almost never plays out the way we think it will.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> That is another thought that did help a lot. She's not and since she's spent 45 minutes yesterday on the phone with SOB they're is clearly not point in engaging her further (apart from legal matters). Plus I'd look totally pathetic calling at that time.
> 
> *The only thing that surprises me - why phone if she can spend all the time with him now?*
> 
> Not sure about the "ego" part and what to make out of it.


Maybe _he's_ the one that can't get away to spend time w/ her.

*cough* He's married!


----------



## GusPolinski

Satya said:


> It's TAM's way of knocking sense into someone. I can't remember the user that I first saw post a picture like that. I definitely can't take the credit.
> 
> Take it from the collective experience of the board... contacting her can do no good. The scenario or conversation we have in our heads almost never plays out the way we think it will.


I believe it was @Conrad that would post similar pics quite often.


----------



## Graywolf2

Hantei said:


> There is one grey area in there - I want to limit and delay the introduction of OM to my son (assuming that she's moving towards a stable relationship with him) for as long as possible. Lawyer told me this is a grey area and I need to be polite, respectful and calm (wtf) throughout this discussion.
> 
> I'm not sure how can I maintain that.


I wouldn't slow down your son meeting the OM. Play nice like your lawyer said. Your son is in high school and can handle this. Your son's character is already formed. Let him meet the OM while he's still pissed off. Time favors everyone calming down and getting use to the idea. If I were advising your STBXW I would tell her to take it slow.


----------



## 3putt

Graywolf2 said:


> I wouldn't speed up or slow down your son meeting the OM. Play nice like your lawyer said. Your son is in high school and can handle this. * Let him meet the OM while he's still pissed off.*


There's some merit in that last line.


----------



## ing

Okay.. This is all happening really fast for you as it did for me.

You already have protected them from this guy. He is out in the open a SOB lying bstrd and nothing she can do will change that. That is the power of exposure and we bang on about it. As it stands from his end he can still keep up the facade.

Your STBXW will try to normalize her relationship with this guy and probably will try and introduce the idea of meeting him to your son. 

Make it clear to your son that he is in no way obligated to meet him, see him or otherwise interact with him despite what his Mother will say.

She will try and present him as a friend first and then later they will get together as if they just met. Yes, she will try this. 

Massively deluded, is she. 

Here is the hard bit..

You are now separate and you need to be that. You must not get in the middle of the relationship of your Son and his Mother. This is really hard because I suspect you have been a buffer for some time?


----------



## ing

GusPolinski said:


> Maybe _he's_ the one that can't get away to spend time w/ her.
> 
> *cough* He's married!


She is hanging about waiting for the scraps now... If not married she is finding out that the_ sensitive, emotional connection_ only works when she is scarce. She is now available full time and.. he isn't? Hmm


----------



## GusPolinski

ing said:


> She is hanging about waiting for the scraps now... If not married she is finding out that the_ sensitive, emotional connection_ only works when she is scarce. She is now available full time and.. he isn't? Hmm


Remember ^this^, @Hantei. It may become relevant in terms of explaining what may soon become your wife's irrationally angry behavior in the coming weeks/months.


----------



## JohnA

It would be a huge mistake for her to introduce OM at this point to your son. It will blow up in her face. Your son is angry and will take it out on the OM.


----------



## Hantei

Thanks. I don't like that hard bit at all but it looks like that is a kind of a bitter pill I'll have to swallow. ..




ing said:


> Okay.. This is all happening really fast for you as it did for me.
> 
> You already have protected them from this guy. He is out in the open a SOB lying bstrd and nothing she can do will change that. That is the power of exposure and we bang on about it. As it stands from his end he can still keep up the facade.
> 
> Your STBXW will try to normalize her relationship with this guy and probably will try and introduce the idea of meeting him to your son.
> 
> Make it clear to your son that he is in no way obligated to meet him, see him or otherwise interact with him despite what his Mother will say.
> 
> She will try and present him as a friend first and then later they will get together as if they just met. Yes, she will try this.
> 
> Massively deluded, is she.
> 
> Here is the hard bit..
> 
> You are now separate and you need to be that. You must not get in the middle of the relationship of your Son and his Mother. This is really hard because I suspect you have been a buffer for some time?


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> Thanks. I don't like that hard bit at all but it looks like that is a kind of a bitter pill I'll have to swallow. ..


Which is why we keep saying to expose the other guy. It will put enormous pressure on their relationship . 

With kids involved I have rather scorched earth approach which is intended to destabilize their relationship and make it as difficult as possible to be normalized. This in turn makes hard for them to set up as new and shiny in either of their friend sets. 

Your son is older and I don't actually think it will be much of an issue because he knows exactly what has happened.


----------



## Hantei

Thanks Gus and ing. You are likely to be correct - perhaps not in your description of the reason she's not spending all the time with him (who knows, perhaps she is trying to do the "right thing" and cool down a bit or whatever) - but in your forecast of what should I expect to happen next (in terms of her behaviour).

What I mean is: until today all her communications with me were cordial and "friendly". She was trying hard - I think - to maintain an image of "responsive and caring adults separating amicable". She was also preiodically calling and texting me asking about our son but also about my "day", checking on her "after work visits"; her MO was also the same when she was visiting after work. 

Today I sent her an email with the proposed parenting plan and inviation do discuss it on Thursday (so that I can try to progress it straight after Easter). As I mentioned, there was nothing there that we haven't had discussed before. The "slow down OM" bit is still there (although softened down a bit). Don't get me wrong I value the advice and am trying to follow it but I can't bear a thought of him meeting my son. I won't ever be able to forgive myself if I stay passive. I'll also talk to him tonight along the lines of what @ing has posted. 

OK, back to the point. After I sent that email out I've got only a short and I'd say dry response from her, literally "OK. Aslo I won't be visiting tonoght or tomorrow" and that was it. So I think I'm about to face some anger and resentmnet. Whatever the reason is.

I would like to ask a question though. I have said this before and maintain the position that I was denied an opportunity to even consider R as my STBXW is deinitelly not "crawling back" - I am reading this thread with great interest. At the same time there was a great post by @EI basically stating that (parahrasing) - BS should not be sitting idle waiting for his WS to crawl back ih she or he wants to R; at the same time he or she should not perform a "pick me" dance. So where am I with that - I'm not doing a pick me up dance (I hope) but am I sitting idle? Where is the balanced way forward between these two?
@ing - I hear you. I do care about my son only, they can get together and live happily everafter if that is what they want. I'll wait for the parenting plan; if I feel that it is not working I'll call the SOB and tell him that I'll do anything (legal) in my power to destroy this relationship as soon as it starts affecting my kid.


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> Remember ^this^, @Hantei. It may become relevant in terms of explaining what may soon become your wife's irrationally angry behavior in the coming weeks/months.


Or her sudden need to try to reconcile.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

@Hantei, you are not doing the pick me dance or sitting idle.

Examples of that would be to not push the parenting plan, or to try to give her gifts, or to send a letter professing your love for her, or other nonsense. 

What you are doing is exactly what she is advocating. You are moving on and being proactive in ending the marriage on your terms, which is like kryptonite to a wayward.

Know your principles and follow them in a disciplined manner, and you wont have to worry about doing the wrong thing.

As for your wife, worry not about her resentment. As hard as it is, you need to focus as little on her as possible.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Satya

Hantei said:


> After I sent that email out I've got only a short and I'd say dry response from her, literally "OK. Aslo I won't be visiting tonoght or tomorrow" and that was it. So I think I'm about to face some anger and resentmnet. Whatever the reason is.


The reason is, you're moving on with your life and she is starting to face the reality of it. You were supposed to be a good beta male and do things on her terms, which is fake and "keeping up appearances." 

Keep in reality and carry on. As I think Ing said, you are separated. Don't forget to live and make decisions like you are. Don't be afraid of her or her anger. If she doesn't keep it on check, she will just make herself look nuts while you stay the rock. This will be especially important for your son to see, if it happens.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Hantei, you do not know nearly enough about the POSOM to know what the situation between your stbxw and him is. This could have been going on a lot longer, this might be the latest in a string of affairs etc - all of which would suggest a different expected behaviour from her.

You don't even know if she was ready to leave you for him until you intercepted the voicemail. It could be that he was being tried out as a potential replacement but you speeded up things by the discovery.

What you do know is that the person you thought you married was not real! Probably your hardest discovery. She lies, cheats and deceives easily. You do not matter to her other than as a source of stability (hence trying out a new vine before she lets go of the old one). Your old picture of her is an illusion.

You are handling this like a champ and going through what is expected in terms of the roller coaster of emotions. I am different in my thinking of how to handle your son. Your job is to protect and help him in any way you can. Do not hold back with regard to his mother's behaviour. Be respectful and age appropriate but tell him the whole truth - he will then be best equipped to handle the situation. And you are right to not want the [email protected] to meet your son. The sad truth is that it will be difficult to enforce which is why the others are saying to not get involved with the relationship your stbxw has with your son. But you can be truthful with your son.

As for how to behave - you are not doing the pick me dance and are successfully resisting the urge to call her - that is very good! You need to show her that you are getting on with your life and actually starting to enjoy life (no doom and gloom) - hence the advice to keep everything calm, polite and upbeat in your dealings with her. Which I also think you are doing very well!

So keep it up. And for now put R out of your mind. If it does raise its head later (by her) then you can deal with it then (come back here for advice) - so go throw another barbie on the shrimps or whatever it is that you do for fun!


----------



## sparrow555

Your son is 18 right ? There is no way in hell he will have a relationship with the guy his mom cheated with.


----------



## ing

ing said:


> You are now separate and you need to be that. You must not get in the middle of the relationship of your Son and his Mother. This is really hard because I suspect you have been a buffer for some time?


Okay so I am quoting myself, but it is for clarity. okay

I don't think I got this across very well. Here is what I meant.

Given that your son already knows about the situation he needs space to be angry with his Mother, he needs to deal with this in his own way and talk to her on his own. You really can't offer advice or solace on the things she says. She will say all the garbage she said to you. Emotional connection, blah, blah.

The difference for your son is that this is Mother and at the moment will not feel like he can walk away. His experience of this is very different to yours.

Right now he will be angry with the OM for breaking his family, damaging his future and depriving him of things he is entitled to. 

A little further down the track the OM will fade into insignificance when he realizes that his Mother chose another man over her own son.

That is the point where he may walk away from her, as my kids did with their mother. It was and is painful but the lesser of two evils


----------



## JohnA

Hi Hantei, 

As to any thoughts of a reconciliation I suggest she has to ask, you cannot offer. If you think she might want to but is afraid to ask, then how is she capable of the hard work of reconciliation?

It is common for a BS to want to reconcile. Many BS go into an almost panic mode of fix and preserve mode. Unlike their WS they cannot picture another way of life. If their WS agrees to attempt reconciliation they find themselves pulling away as the magnitude of the adultery hits.


----------



## Acoa

Hantei said:


> Can someone please talk me out of calling her now ? ray:


Don't call her.


----------



## Hantei

Acoa said:


> Don't call her.


I did not.


----------



## Hantei

I've followed up with a discussion with my son yesterday night trying to take into account the advice I've received . He is not adult (teens) howevere despite some obvious outbursts appropriate for his age (word "hate" has been used) I'm pleasantly surprised with his attitude and approach. To summarise: he loves his mother and will always be her son and will always be there for her. This does not extend to the OM. If my STBXW is going to "be together with him (OM)" he will be polite but that's it. He will (I have advised to do it when the time comes, not now) ask his mother to minimise his contact with OM - as he does not feel comformatble live under the same roof with an adult stranger. He wants this arrangement to stay until he turns 18. If at any time until them OM makes any attempt to be more than a "mum's boyfriend" to im, he will call child protection and claim unwanted male contact.

Once again I have advised him not to have this discussion now but clearly expressed how proud I am and how much I respect his adult-like attitide.

Will see how the parenting discission on Thirsday goes.


----------



## Hantei

R is not on the table at least until she puts on it. She's with the fresh love of her life AFAIK. 



JohnA said:


> Hi Hantei,
> 
> As to any thoughts of a reconciliation I suggest she has to ask, you cannot offer. If you think she might want to but is afraid to ask, then how is she capable of the hard work of reconciliation?
> 
> It is common for a BS to want to reconcile. Many BS go into an almost panic mode of fix and preserve mode. Unlike their WS they cannot picture another way of life. If their WS agrees to attempt reconciliation they find themselves pulling away as the magnitude of the adultery hits.


----------



## Hantei

"Keeping up the appearances" - is what it is. 100%. An insignificant part of the story, which however illustrates the point IMHO. 


Earlier, shortly (if not the same day) after I have expposed to select family and friends she called me in anger. There is an older lady who is her close friend - more like a godmother (although I like her a lot as well). We are (were) invited to her upcoming anniversary. Apparently she cancelled via SMS the same day I exposed. So STBXW called me in attempt to find out if I have been uninvited as well and accusing me of "ruining this for all" and "being exactly that sort of cold an unemotional person she realised I am". STBXW called that lady when she's received an SMS and ended up telling her about her new boyfriend - but did not get full support and approval of "pursuing her hapiness" she was probably expeciting. 

The funny thing is I did not really inform that lady - but STBXW was unwilling to hear and belive that. Well, we all got an email couple of days later from the old lady - the annniversay is cancelled as one of her close relatives ended up in the hosplital an the prognosis is not very good. She sent SMS to my STBXW just because her was playing a major part in the preparation and setting the event, so the lady wanted to let her know earlier. 
So my STBXW basically busted herself.





Satya said:


> The reason is, you're moving on with your life and she is starting to face the reality of it. You were supposed to be a good beta male and do things on her terms, which is fake and "keeping up appearances."
> 
> Keep in reality and carry on. As I think Ing said, you are separated. Don't forget to live and make decisions like you are. Don't be afraid of her or her anger. If she doesn't keep it on check, she will just make herself look nuts while you stay the rock. This will be especially important for your son to see, if it happens.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Hantei said:


> "Keeping up the appearances" - is what it is. 100%. An insignificant part of the story, which however illustrates the point IMHO.
> 
> 
> Earlier, shortly (if not the same day) after I have expposed to select family and friends she called me in anger. There is an older lady who is her close friend - more like a godmother (although I like her a lot as well). We are (were) invited to her upcoming anniversary. Apparently she cancelled via SMS the same day I exposed. So STBXW called me in attempt to find out if I have been uninvited as well and accusing me of "ruining this for all" and "being exactly that sort of cold an unemotional person she realised I am". STBXW called that lady when she's received an SMS and ended up telling her about her new boyfriend - but did not get full support and approval of "pursuing her hapiness" she was probably expeciting.
> 
> The funny thing is I did not really inform that lady - but STBXW was unwilling to hear and belive that. Well, we all got an email couple of days later from the old lady - the annniversay is cancelled as one of her close relatives ended up in the hosplital an the prognosis is not very good. She sent SMS to my STBXW just because her was playing a major part in the preparation and setting the event, so the lady wanted to let her know earlier.
> So my STBXW basically busted herself.


Hilarious! Shot herself in the foot!


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> The funny thing is I did not really inform that lady - but STBXW was unwilling to hear and belive that.


Everything that happens in her life from this moment on is your fault. Get used to it


----------



## Chaparral

On a lighter note, were you anywhere near the Australian GrandPrix?
It was awesome but Mercedes beat my Ferrari team again.

Btw, you might be wise to check out chumplady.com.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Hantei said:


> I'll wait for the parenting plan; if I feel that it is not working I'll call the SOB and tell him that I'll do anything (legal) in my power to destroy this relationship as soon as it starts affecting my kid.


 If it comes to this, Don't inform him of anything, just take action. Absolutely no reason to give him warning or an opportunity to counter.


----------



## Hantei

Chaparral said:


> On a lighter note, were you anywhere near the Australian GrandPrix?
> It was awesome but Mercedes beat my Ferrari team again.
> 
> Btw, you might be wise to check out chumplady.com.


I was 800 something kilometers away. Stopped being F1 fan when they started tweaking rules all the time. May rejoin when Hyundai decides to join it. :grin2:


----------



## Hantei

Rubix Cubed said:


> If it comes to this, Don't inform him of anything, just take action. Absolutely no reason to give him warning or an opportunity to counter.


True however my goal is to prevent his access to my kid, not to punish him.

In any case tomorrow night may - hopefully - provide me with some peace of mind in that department- at least for now. 

It's been a dead silence from her since I sent the proposed plan. Interestingly I've had a plethora of call from just about anyone who knows (expressions of support mixed with suggestions to work it out)...except her parents. They never called even to find out my side of the story or to blame me.


----------



## TX-SC

Your son has the right and should limit contact with the OM. But... to raise accusations of assault might be a little overboard.


----------



## sparrow555

TX-SC said:


> Your son has the right and should limit contact with the OM. But... to raise accusations of assault might be a little overboard.


What a pointless thing to focus on. Posts like yours distract from the main point of discussion


----------



## TX-SC

sparrow555 said:


> What a pointless thing to focus on. Posts like yours distract from the main point of discussion


How so?


----------



## sparrow555

TX-SC said:


> How so?


like this. Arguing about hypothetical scenarios.


----------



## TX-SC

sparrow555 said:


> like this. Arguing about hypothetical scenarios.


It's not arguing. I'm referring to the comment at the end of Post 341.


TX-SC said:


> How so?


----------



## Hantei

TX-SC said:


> It's not arguing. I'm referring to the comment at the end of Post 341.


TX-SC, Sparrow, thanks, I value all the feedback, on hypothetical and real scenarios. In this case yes he did say that and that is probably overboard. In this case however I'm tempted to "good boy do that" encourage him.

Nevertheless I don't think he will do that in real life. You see he is really mad right now yet at his age I do not thing he takes cheating and "new boyfriend" as seriously as adults do.

For him cheating is something like "Jane told me she can't go to the movies with me as she's busy with the homework bit instead went with James. My life is over".


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> For him cheating is something like "Jane told me she can't go to the movies with me as she's busy with the homework bit instead went with James. My life is over".


I think you underestimate him. He will have friends at school and he will soon be told all about it.
Your income reduced
Time with parents split 
Negotiating two lives
Holidays ruined
Birthdays and Xmas nothing like before

It sucks. His life changed forever too.


----------



## Hantei

ing said:


> I think you underestimate him. He will have friends at school and he will soon be told all about it.
> Your income reduced
> Time with parents split
> Negotiating two lives
> Holidays ruined
> Birthdays and Xmas nothing like before
> 
> It sucks. His life changed forever too.



This is a very sad list. ATM I'm kind of thinking I've been too nice to them both. 
Tonight when I meet STBXW to discuss the agreement and parenting plan will be a turning point - wether we/I stay civi or not.

it's been total silence so far - won't be surprised if she cancels last minute or turns up with a lawyer. Hope she's smart enough not to turn up with SOB!


----------



## 86857

Hantei said:


> To summarise: [my son] said he loves his mother and will always be her son and will always be there for her. This does not extend to the OM. If my STBXW is going to "be together with him (OM)" he will be polite but that's it. He will (I have advised to do it when the time comes, not now) ask his mother to minimise his contact with OM - as he does not feel comformatble live under the same roof with an adult stranger. He wants this arrangement to stay until he turns 18. If at any time until them OM makes any attempt to be more than a "mum's boyfriend" to im, he will call child protection and claim unwanted male contact.


I haven't been on here for a while @Hantei & have just read your recent posts. 

You are dealing with it magnificently & with great strength and solidity. 

All BS on here know only too well how hard that is to do in the face of all this. 

The maturity of your son's reaction was amazing given he's still only a teenager. 

Kudos to you both. 

Good luck on Thursday.


----------



## ing

Hope things are under control after meeting.


----------



## Hantei

ing said:


> Hope things are under control after meeting.


Not really. I'll update after I get my thoughts together, they are in disarray, it didn't go as I expected.


----------



## farsidejunky

Prayers for you, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## happyman64

Hang tough Hantei.

Soon This mess will be behind you and a new "normal" will be in front of you.

You just have to make it out of the mud first.

HM


----------



## bandit.45

Sounds like you are under attack. Just know that we support you and you have friends. And remember, the hell you are going through now will not last. Eventually you will come out on top. Love your son, be the best man and father you can be, be honest in everything you do, and always fight for the truth. 

You have the truth on your side. Remember that. It is the most powerful force in the universe, and if you ally yourself with it, refuse to lie or serve lies, then you will come out of this torture standing on the winning side.


----------



## Hantei

﻿OK, this is my update. It is going to be a long one. I'm sorry for the length of it, it's just I really need opinions more than ever.

Before I get to t be facts: I have been trying to stick to the facts and leave my emotions out of my thread. I do not think I feel any different from any other betrayed husband (not happy Jen!) and sharing them is out of character for me. Today I'm going to post a snapshot of them - purely to explain my state of mind and why relatively mundane details of my last interaction with STBXW did affect me more than expected. 

Those who know me well could confirm that I'm can go hard yards if I know I'm doing the right thing. This was the case for me until Thursday- I was and am sad, angry and whatever but I knew (and TAM played a great part in it) that I'm following the only path possible for a man whose wife fell deeply in love with someone else. Separtion and divorce were hard and regrettable but natural. So I didn't mind taking the initiative as I knew I couldn't change her mind to start loving me back and fall back in love with me. Not gonna work when she ended up with another man after all these great years together. At least I didn't have spend days guessing if she's cheated (yes) and if she wants R (no). I was confident however Thursday did break my confidence so I'm posting here in attempt to get it back. 

Now the facts. 

I could not recognize her when she arrived- and I have not seen her for just a couple of days. She is looking 10 years older. I know this is a very common thing for BH to write but trust me on this one - I am accurate here. She used to get compliments that she looks 10 years younger her age - now her age seems to caught up and this in not liking healthy. 

My son was looking forward to see her (she missed couple of days as I mentioned). However when he learned that we will be going though parenting and financial issues he expressed his preference to stay out of it and told me he'll hang out with his friend untill we are done. I expected an outburst from STBXW when I told her that - and she has been shaken badly (I could tell) but she only managed to say "Guess I have deserved this ". Which was so not like her, needless to say. 

We then proceeded with the plans and documents and she was agreeing with everything without any feedback or opinion - in that sort of monotonous almost robotic voice . I have had to ask her repeatedly if she is ok and if she is willing to postpone the discussion. "Let's get this done" and "I deserve this" were the only answers I got.

She then decided not to wait for the son (I messaged him to come home) and left. 15 minutes later I have spotted her still sitting in her car - I went to check on her and she was crying heavily as she's done the other day. It was clear it's unsafe for her to drive so I offered her a cab. She asked me if I'd be willing to give her a lift. I responded that it does not seem like a good idea so I can call her a cab and drop her car later. She responded with "I ruined everything, have I? ". Then she turned the engine on, pulled down the window and asked me "May I ask you for the last favour: can we please talk like we used to last time some day next week?" and drove off.

I wanted to ask her whats is gking on abd id she's having second thoughts so badly but couldn't do it at that moment.


My 3 questions are:
What's going on with her? 
Am I still doing the right thing?
Should I have that talk?


----------



## GusPolinski

She's beginning to come out of the fog.

OM may have dumped her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1

You'll kill your self figuring out what is going on with her. It is natural and right for you to take that internally but externally you need to stay on path. The results speak for themselves.

So yes you are doing the right thing.

I would encourage you to have a talk but not under any false pretenses. She lost the right to dictate 'how things used to be' when she unilaterally decided to end the marriage contract. That doesn't need you need to be an **** to her, but you should approach her with zero emotion, assemble facts then immediately leave. Assess those facts when you are able to balance yourself emotionally. Distance, time and professional guidance will be what brings you emotional balance.


----------



## bandit.45

Don't get your hopes up. 

What looks like her coming out of the fog may only be her coming to terms with her new future. She is processing the reality that is her new life and identity. 

She is not crying because she is sad she is losing you. Understand, you don't really fit into the picture. "I deserve this" and "I have ruined everything...blah blah" are expressions of guilt and acceptance of her new fate. Do not mistake them for remorse or empathy for how you are feeling. Her thoughts are still self-focused and pointed inwardly. If she gave a sh!t about what she has done to you or her son she would be asking you what she could do to take away your pain, or what she could do to stop her son from hurting. 

She's not there. Not anywhere near remorse. 

Tomorrow she may come at you with a fire-breathing vengeance. She will forget everything that she told you the other day and go back to treating you like the enemy. That is how crazy cheaters can become. It really is a form of self-induced psychosis. 

So just stay frosty. Watch her actions, don't listen to her words. A sorrowful person acts sorrowful. She's only acting guilty.


----------



## ing

It is confusing isn't it. You want to believe that there is a chance, you want to believe that the woman you love loves you in the same way as you love her. 
We project our own desires, wishes and dreams on them. We see a tiny flash of the person we love and all our resolve and strength washes away. This is natural . It is hope. 

She never wanted to lose you. That was really not part of the equation in her head. Her emotional man who she connects with like no other is only that when you are in that equation. 
You have removed yourself and that is breaking her relationship . Only having you as before will enable that feeling to come back for her. 


*She chose this. Not you *

You chose to claim your dignity, act with integrity and move on, as she told you that you must. 

I do not believe in the magical fog. Quiet simply people do what they do because they want to. There is no magic, no temporary insanity. It is planned. It is deliberate, They do it because it is exactly what they want to do.

I am sorry that she is doing this. I am sorry that she feels entitled to your love. 

*The Exit code..*

WHILE
Wife with other guy
DO
Exit
DONE

Run this in continuous loop. Every interaction you have with her is feeding their passion. Do not engage. 

*Stand alone.*

It is hard to do after so many years. There are so few parts of you to remember without her, they are there though. Deeply buried, but there.


----------



## sparrow555

1) She got dumped or saw people for what they really are. 

2) 



> She asked me if I'd be willing to give her a lift. I responded that it does not seem like a good idea so I can call her a cab and drop her car later.














3) Maybe it is evolutionary but playing the victim(genuine or not) is the fastest way she can get close to you again. She probably wanted to discuss stuff with you when she asked for a lift. It might not be a bad thing to find out what is going on with her but don't be surprised if she lashes out.

If OM is still involved, no point discussing anything. If he is not, maybe you can start to talk and re-asses the situation.


----------



## farsidejunky

@Hantei, you again handled it like a boss.

Steady now. None of us can say whether or not she is transitioning from regret to remorse, but until she can clearly show it, stay the course.

There may come a time where you throw her the life line. It is not quite there yet.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## bandit.45

Regardless of how she is acting, what she may be thinking, or what she wants from you....you need to stay the course and continue on doing what you are doing. Continue on with the 180, working towards the divorce settlement, becoming a better man and father....

She is going to take two steps forward and three back...she is going to vacillate and swerve and try to run you off the road. It is imperative that you stay on track and stay focused. The only thing you can control is you, so let go of the outcome. Let go if her and your old life. Those things don't exist anymore. Your marriage no longer exists. Start training your brain to think that you are already divorced and single, that she has moved on and is never coming back, and that you have your whole future ahead of you. 

Free your mind from her, and your ass will follow.


----------



## JohnA

It has been a couple of days since Thursday, has she been in touch with your son? How did your son react to her just leaving ? 

As others suggested most likely she regrets the disruption in her life, not the loss of you. @bandit.45 has a new thread about the myth of they come crawing back, Take a moment and read it. 

Have you determined how your WW and OM meant? I would guess a toxic friend started the ball rolling urging her to use a dating web site. I recall a thread discussing how infidelity seems to occur in clusters. Take a hard look at her friends. 

Finally what details where left? I thought you had resolved them already with the paperwork done and filed? 

In any event keep building a new life. Do you cook ? It is a blast. My ex blew a circuit when she saw me shopping and cooking. When she demanded to know why now I told her because she was a diva when it cabe to shopping and cooking so I had no desire to do it with her. 

If her behavior continues to concern you, drop a note to her parents expressing your concern.


----------



## Hantei

Thank you so much, exactly what I need to stay on the course. I may consider having "the talk" but if I do this will be under conditions described by @eric1 and @bandit.45. And I'm going to cut it short if OM is involved - BTW should I ask her this question? How will I know?

Clarifications. 

My refusal to drive her home is a bigger deal than it sounds. We used to drive together all the time and when we did my left hand was always off the wheel- e.g
holding her hand. Source of constant jokes and teasing. 

She called my son 2 times. Nothing significant. I told him she left because she was too upset. His question was "so if this causes so much pain why are you two keep doing this"?

I'm constantly reading the "crawling back" thread. 

The legal part is going ok, she's agreed to everything. The separation is in place and well documented . I'm getting ready for a lot of set backs now when the sorrow phase is over.

I'm not going to contact her parents, they are the only ones who have not contacted me since the separation. 

I have no clue how did they meet and would really like to know (despite that I don't grant need to). If she tells me this voluntarily I may consider this as remorseful. 

Thank you very much.


----------



## JohnA

What type of visitation for her and your son did the two of you work out? I was under the impression he would spend some nights with her. I find it very odd the disappearing act she is pulling with your son. I would be very much on guard. Is she still using the same cell phone? If so how much contact is there between you WW and OM? 

As to the talk, let her come to you. If she doesnt have the personal fortitude to come to you, she will never be strong enough to reconcile. 

As to my suggestion to contact her parents, I meant that if you think she might harm herself then call her parents and walk away. I've said in the past if I was out hiking and saw my ex hanging off a cliff - I would call 911 and then keep hiking. Not my problem, that simple.


----------



## JohnA

Oh, who are het friends? Are there any new ones? Those are the ones she will take her cue from.


----------



## bandit.45

If she asks you why you refused to drive her home tell her that it is simply because you are no longer her husband. 

The marital relationship was terminated by her. She fired you as her husband and gave another guy the job. So that said, tell her that she no longer gets to enjoy the privileges she used to enjoy when having you as a husband. 

No more coming to pick her up when her car breaks down. No more getting her ass out of trouble when she gets in over her head with things. If your son is with her, then yes, otherwise no. 

No more helping her fix sh!t that gets broken. Her new OM can do that stuff for her now.

No more being her handyman. 

No more going to the market for her, no helping her clean house, no helping fold laundry, no more picking her clothes up at the dry cleaner, no more plunging the toilets, no more mowing the lawn. 

No more laughter and joking around or deep conversations about life and family. That is what her OM is there for. 

No more affection, no more sex, no more friendship, no more understanding, no more being there for her when she needs an ally against the onslaughts of every day life. 

No more money or support from you. 

That is what she gave up when she gave you up. Remind her of this.


----------



## TX-SC

I would certainly meet with her as a sign that you are an adult and want to handle your divorce in an adult way. Make sure she knows that the OM is not to be present at this meeting and it should be in a neutral location. In fact, I would recommend meeting at a restaurant so that it is public. 

When you meet her, be courteous but be professional. You and she are now entering into a legal relationship, not a personal one. The personal one, marriage, was terminated by her and is therefore no longer valid. 

It is possible that her little world is crumbling, but that should not be your concern. Your concern is ONLY for you and your child.

Keep on your course. Keep your head up and let her see that not only will you survive this, but you will thrive.


----------



## bandit.45

TX-SC said:


> I would certainly meet with her as a sign that you are an adult and want to handle your divorce in an adult way. Make sure she knows that the OM is not to be present at this meeting and it should be in a neutral location. In fact, I would recommend meeting at a restaurant so that it is public.
> 
> When you meet her, be courteous but be professional. You and she are now entering into a legal relationship, not a personal one. The personal one, marriage, was terminated by her and is therefore no longer valid.
> 
> It is possible that her little world is crumbling, but that should not be your concern. Your concern is ONLY for you and your child.
> 
> Keep on your course. Keep your head up and let her see that not only will you survive this, but you will thrive.


And make sure you don't order hot drinks. 

Seriously. Several years back we had a poster who met her WH at a coffee shop, they got in a fight and he ended up throwing boiling hot coffee on her before storming out of the cafe. 

You have got to think about this sh!t. :|


----------



## TX-SC

bandit.45 said:


> And make sure you don't order hot drinks.
> 
> Seriously. Several years back we had a poster who met her WH at a coffee shop, they got in a fight and he ended up throwing boiling hot coffee on her before storming out of the cafe.
> 
> You have got to think about this sh!t. :|


Probably a good idea. Recommend she drink water...


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> Thank you so much, exactly what I need to stay on the course. I may consider having "the talk" but if I do this will be under conditions described by @eric1 and @bandit.45. *And I'm going to cut it short if OM is involved - BTW should I ask her this question? How will I know?*
> 
> 
> 
> Clarifications.
> 
> 
> 
> My refusal to drive her home is a bigger deal than it sounds. We used to drive together all the time and when we did my left hand was always off the wheel- e.g
> 
> holding her hand. Source of constant jokes and teasing.
> 
> 
> 
> She called my son 2 times. Nothing significant. I told him she left because she was too upset. His question was "so if this causes so much pain why are you two keep doing this"?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm constantly reading the "crawling back" thread.
> 
> 
> 
> The legal part is going ok, she's agreed to everything. The separation is in place and well documented . I'm getting ready for a lot of set backs now when the sorrow phase is over.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not going to contact her parents, they are the only ones who have not contacted me since the separation.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no clue how did they meet and would really like to know (despite that I don't grant need to). If she tells me this voluntarily I may consider this as remorseful.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you very much.



you 100% ask her. Her emotions are his problem now if he is involved. If he is, then the only two things you talk about are finances and kids. PERIOD


----------



## Hantei

I sent out an email to her this morning agreeing to meet tonight. To be more specific she messaged me thanking for yesterday (wtf) and asking to have *the talk" again. I asked does she still and really want it (imagining OM talking her out of it) but the response was "yes, 1000 times yes". So I sent an email agreeing to meet.

Now I'm angry (to say it lightly) as I noticed she used this phrase in one of the messages to OM. So I'm thinking of sending her a meeting invite to make it business (I'm yet to confirm the time) and putting the quote from bandit's post below as an agenda. F^$%ck.





bandit.45 said:


> If she asks you why you refused to drive her home tell her that it is simply because you are no longer her husband.
> 
> The marital relationship was terminated by her. She fired you as her husband and gave another guy the job. So that said, tell her that she no longer gets to enjoy the privileges she used to enjoy when having you as a husband.
> 
> No more coming to pick her up when her car breaks down. No more getting her ass out of trouble when she gets in over her head with things. If your son is with her, then yes, otherwise no.
> 
> No more helping her fix sh!t that gets broken. Her new OM can do that stuff for her now.
> 
> No more being her handyman.
> 
> No more going to the market for her, no helping her clean house, no helping fold laundry, no more picking her clothes up at the dry cleaner, no more plunging the toilets, no more mowing the lawn.
> 
> No more laughter and joking around or deep conversations about life and family. That is what her OM is there for.
> 
> No more affection, no more sex, no more friendship, no more understanding, no more being there for her when she needs an ally against the onslaughts of every day life.
> 
> No more money or support from you.
> 
> That is what she gave up when she gave you up. Remind her of this.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> I sent out an email to her this morning agreeing to meet tonight. To be more specific she messaged me thanking for yesterday (wtf) and asking to have *the talk" again. I asked does she still and really want it (imagining OM talking her out of it) but the response was "yes, 1000 times yes". So I sent an email agreeing to meet.
> 
> Now I'm angry (to say it lightly) as I noticed she used this phrase in one of the messages to OM. So I'm thinking of sending her a meeting invite to make it business (I'm yet to confirm the time) and putting the quote from bandit's post below as an agenda. F^$%ck.


LOL! Send her an Outlook invite! That would be sweet...:laugh:

But seriously....be careful man. Make sure you meet in a public place. Go in with your game face on. Spock. 

Here is what I predict. One of two things will happen: 

1). She will want to get back together...but....she will have conditions. First condition will be that you have to take the blame for everything. She will sit there and tell you how unhappy she was, how you were not meeting her needs, how she got swept up by the OM and couldn't help herself...or he took advantage of her loneliness. 

At that point, quietly get up, throw a ten on the table and walk out. 

2). She will tell you that she is staying with the OM, and that even though she is sorry for making you sad and hurting your feelings, the affair is a positive thing and she is happy and the two of you are better off just being friends. She hopes that you can forgive her, but that you need to understand that what she has done is for the best, and she wants you to act like an adult, and please stop being angry at her, because she cannot handle your rage. It makes her feel bad about herself, and because the OM is really a great guy and she wants the two of you to get along and...

At that point, quietly get up, throw a ten on the table and walk out. 

P.S. Make sure you have cash in your wallet.


----------



## TX-SC

Good, meet with her. Remember this is probably NOT going to be what you think or hope it is. You need to be all about protecting yourself and your kid here. Be stoic, but not a robot.


----------



## Hantei

Sent a Google calendar invite. As for the rest- Yep, very much along the lines of your (all) posts - I mean I don't have my hopes high and just expect some closure as a best case scenario. 

I mean if she really wanted to start working on the marriage- she'd just let me know, right?

So it's likely going to be bandit option 2.


----------



## bankshot1993

H,
just curious, if this were a perfect world and your meeting went perfectly according to everything that you want and need, what would happen in this meeting?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Iver

Hantei

You're doing everything that you need to do here. It really boils down to one thing. As long as she's involved with the OM it's just business of the divorce and co-parenting your child. That's it.

Do not try to comprehend what is causing her to boo-hoo. Maybe the OM is 20k in cc debt and she realizes she's screwed up. Maybe he leaves the toilet seat up. Maybe she wanted to milk you for one more vacation before leaving you. You'll go crazy trying to figure out what is driving her. Do not get your hopes up for any favorable outcome because of this. 

As many have said judge them on their actions, not their words. Sorry doesn't mean s**** if she's still with the OM. If you want go ahead and ask her when she met the OM and how long she's been boinking him but expect to get lied to. If reconciliation is ever on the table a Polygraph should be Item #2.*

Good Luck Hantei.

*item #1 STD test


----------



## eric1

bandit.45 said:


> LOL! Send her an Outlook invite! That would be sweet...:laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> But seriously....be careful man. Make sure you meet in a public place. Go in with your game face on. Spock.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what I predict. One of two things will happen:
> 
> 
> 
> 1). She will want to get back together...but....she will have conditions. First condition will be that you have to take the blame for everything. She will sit there and tell you how unhappy she was, how you were not meeting her needs, how she got swept up by the OM and couldn't help herself...or he took advantage of her loneliness.
> 
> 
> 
> At that point, quietly get up, throw a ten on the table and walk out.
> 
> 
> 
> 2). She will tell you that she is staying with the OM, and that even though she is sorry for making you sad and hurting your feelings, the affair is a positive thing and she is happy and the two of you are better off just being friends. She hopes that you can forgive her, but that you need to understand that what she has done is for the best, and she wants you to act like an adult, and please stop being angry at her, because she cannot handle your rage. It makes her feel bad about herself, and because the OM is really a great guy and she wants the two of you to get along and...
> 
> 
> 
> At that point, quietly get up, throw a ten on the table and walk out.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Make sure you have cash in your wallet.



I wish I could like a post more than once


----------



## TX-SC

Hantei said:


> Sent a Google calendar invite. As for the rest- Yep, very much along the lines of your (all) posts - I mean I don't have my hopes high and just expect some closure as a best case scenario.
> 
> I mean if she really wanted to start working on the marriage- she'd just let me know, right?
> 
> So it's likely going to be bandit option 2.


There is no such thing as closure. You shouldn't really expect that. I think it's likely that she will use the "this is really for the best" and "let's all get along" lines on you. She needs to know that you will be a good parent and that the two of you can get along for that purpose, but that there will be no friendship, hanging out, or getting together. You may have to see each other for certain events in your child's life, but otherwise your relationship is over. 

If she DOES want to R, I think you better be really careful of how you answer. You would need to remain separated for a time and she would need to seek counseling. Once she has worked out her own issues, you can see a MC and figure other things out. I really don't see you R at this point though. She has clearly stated that she isn't into you. Any R would likely be a false R. 

Use your head in ALL interactions, not your heart or penis.


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> Sent a Google calendar invite. As for the rest- Yep, very much along the lines of your (all) posts - I mean I don't have my hopes high and just expect some closure as a best case scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean if she really wanted to start working on the marriage- she'd just let me know, right?
> 
> 
> 
> So it's likely going to be bandit option 2.



That is amazing. The calendar invite is a goddamned amazing idea.

You are approaching this THE EXACT PERFECT WAY. It's serious business but if you can even kind of make light of it you've hit a GODDAMNED GRAND SLAM!


----------



## JohnA

What do you mean "the talk'? What is left to settle? 

As to a friendship, no. Done is done. 

The two of you can be allies when it comes to your son only. The rest, like I said all you to do is dial 911 and keep walking.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> Sent a Google calendar invite. As for the rest- Yep, very much along the lines of your (all) posts - I mean I don't have my hopes high and just expect some closure as a best case scenario.
> 
> I mean if she really wanted to start working on the marriage- she'd just let me know, right?
> 
> So it's likely going to be bandit option 2.


We have a fantastic member here on TAM named Morituri. He's a sage. I suggest you read his threads and posts. 

One of his Threads is called "Just Let Them Go". It is a masterpiece. Maybe one of the kind people here will cut and paste it here for you. Basically it recommends telling the unrepentant wayward to go and live a happy life with their affair partner. Wish the WS well. Tell them you love them and want them to be happy. Then close the door behind them and let them go. Go dark and keep all unnecessary communication to a minimum. Then start living your life.


----------



## Marc878

You will get the "can we be friends"???? Maybe an apology which will be Cheaterspeak. They all do this and in reality it's meaningless.

This is to somehow try and make her actions acceptable. See xH is ok with this we're "friends"!!!

She's not your friend. Look up the definition - trustworthy, loyal, etc.

I would tell her in the future no contact except for your son and only text or email.

You need to detach so you can move on. Any other contact will just prolong your state of limbo.

Make no mistake a hard 180 will get you over this more than you think.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> ﻿
> *"May I ask you for the last favour: can we please talk like we used to last time some day next week?" *
> 
> I wanted to ask her whats is gking on abd id she's having second thoughts so badly but couldn't do it at that moment.
> 
> 
> My 3 questions are:
> What's going on with her?
> Am I still doing the right thing?
> Should I have that talk?


This is key. LAST FAVOR

She is wanting to get closure for herself. This is not for you.

Your call but I'd cancel and tell her to put what she has in an email. You need to move on.


----------



## ing

When she is looking you straight in the eye in what appears like openness she is flat out lying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

*Just Let Them Go*
_
The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings,
"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse,
and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,
wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.
A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?
To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,
The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.
You don't fight them on this issue.
You agree with their feelings,
they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them._


----------



## Hantei

Thank you all for NOT letting me to keep my hopes high - thats what my logic tells me I need. I'll meet her as I've promised but after some time spent today reflecting on what happened to us and your posts/ other threads I need to expect only the last blow aka coup de grace to my marriage. So be it. Will know in 3 hours.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> Thank you all for NOT letting me to keep my hopes high - thats what my logic tells me I need. I'll meet her as I've promised but after some time spent today reflecting on what happened to us and your posts/ other threads I need to expect only the last blow aka coup de grace to my marriage. So be it. Will know in 3 hours.


Whatever happens just stay calm. You are the adult. She is a child. Let her cry and rage and yell. Be a rock in the storm. 

Do not make her any promises...for anything. None. Listen to her and let her know you hear her, but don't be afraid to get up and leave when she starts the blame-shifting.


----------



## Hantei

Brilliant post and thanks for sharing. Very close to what I told her on Thursday - her request for today's talk was really a reaction to that. 





bandit.45 said:


> *Just Let Them Go*
> _
> The end result?
> 
> The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
> let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.
> 
> That is the end result.
> 
> The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.
> 
> Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.
> 
> Nothing else works better or quicker.
> 
> Let them go.
> 
> Agree with them and their feelings,
> "you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"
> 
> Wouldn't that be true love?
> 
> If you really loved your spouse,
> and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,
> wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?
> 
> Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
> Just let them go. Give them their freedom.
> 
> You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.
> 
> I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.
> 
> But cheating, no excuses.
> 
> Think about cheating.
> A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?
> 
> Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.
> 
> Fighting the affair? For what reason?
> To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
> What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
> They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.
> 
> And for your last point,
> The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.
> 
> "Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."
> 
> You give them what they want.
> You don't fight them on this issue.
> You agree with their feelings,
> they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.
> 
> You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.
> 
> You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
> you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
> you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"
> 
> I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.
> 
> You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.
> 
> Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them._


----------



## Marc878

Your head will work a lot better than your heart here. 

For your future I'd just tell her I need to move on from this and purge you from my life as much as possible except for texts/emails about your son.

If you can do a hard 180 you will get past this sooner.

Treat her like the mailman or grocery clerk. Someone you know but have nothing in common with.

If she starts with the Cheaterspeak tell her you really don't need to hear it and leave. Like she's leaving you.

It's for the best man. Sorry


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei, you are still all over the board emotionally, which is perfectly normal. 

If she asks for R, hear her out. But do not give her an answer right away. Tell her you need to sleep on any decision given the choices she has made. Then bring what she said back here for a reality check.

Don't let your heart make snap decisions your head is not okay with.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

I doubt it'll be an R conversation but Far is right make no commitment. You need time and insight if that does come up.

Under no consideration agree to be friends. Make no mistake. This would be for her not you. She made this bed let her sleep in it alone.

Be civil but aloof.


----------



## Marc878

If you really want to cut the conversation short have a hot chic waiting on cue. When you're done signal her to come in and say hey babe I'm ready are you???

> > > > bahahahahaha!!!!!!!


----------



## Iver

Good Luck Hantei.

Just remember there's light at the end of the tunnel.

As for your meeting, don't tolerate any blame shifting or justifications for her infidelity. 

One suggestion - if she starts on her feelings ask her when she started banging him. Don't fall into her mode of thinking that this is somehow OK. Keep her on the defensive. 

One day this will be far behind you. Don't forget that.


----------



## Marc878

OP if someone makes you a sh!t sandwiche it doesn't mean you have to eat it.

Go your own way.


----------



## eric1

Hope that it all went as well as it possibly could have man


----------



## Hantei

I've got more info than I probably ever needed - there will be no way to "un know" it. The short version is: her mother hooked them up in 2016 - and she has tried to set this up bfeore m- ore than 20 years ago when we (I and STBXW) got serious and moved in together. STBXW succumbed to it this time but now the SOB is not commiting.


----------



## TX-SC

Hantei said:


> I've got more info than I probably ever needed - there will be no way to "un know" it. The short version is: her mother hooked them up in 2016 - and she has tried to set this up bfeore m- ore than 20 years ago when we (I and STBXW) got serious and moved in together. STBXW succumbed to it this time but now the SOB is not commiting.


It sounds like you are her Plan B at this point. Don't be her plan B. Her mother is a lunatic and you should never speak to her again. Now, just keep on track to divorce and start building your new life.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> I've got more info than I probably ever needed - there will be no way to "un know" it. The short version is: her mother hooked them up in 2016 - and she has tried to set this up bfeore m- ore than 20 years ago when we (I and STBXW) got serious and moved in together. STBXW succumbed to it this time but now the SOB is not commiting.


Your MIL?!? Toxic b****.

As for the OM not committing... Not surprising at all.

You would be best put to cut her and her family from your life to the greatest extent possible.

ETA: Does you son know his grandmother set his mother up on a date with the OM?
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Graywolf2

Marc878 said:


> You will get the "can we be friends"???? Maybe an apology which will be Cheaterspeak. They all do this and in reality it's meaningless.
> 
> *This is to somehow try and make her actions acceptable. See xH is ok with this we're "friends"!!!
> *


Another version is "Your father forgave me why can't you?

I know of a case where the WW wanted to R purely to keep a relation with her adult kids. Her daughter caught her and all the kids were going to write her off. 

She had mentioned divorce several times over the years. Her husband said “I’m the same man I’ve always been and I’m not going to change. Why don’t you want a divorce now?” The WW wrote the OM saying “We have to end this or I will lose my children forever. The husband was merely a bridge to the children.


----------



## eric1

"not committing" tells you all you need to know about why she wanted to talk. "just like old times" was an indication that she's looking for some stability. Well, the consequence of her actions is that this stability does not exist anymore. Your basket of responsibility is quite full at the moment, dealing with a distraught child and your own inner turmoil that she has caused. Perhaps her mother should be the one being her rock at this point. 

I STRONGLY recommend remaining "dark" to her outside of seperation and child-related items. When and if she is ever sorry you WILL know. The only personal advice that you can give at this point is that "I am receiving professional help and would encourage you to do the same". Even if you were not to take our advice and re-engage, you do not have the qualifications to fix her. 

Basically it is all on her at this point.


----------



## bandit.45

So it's her mom's fault... not hers....

She does whatever mommy wants her to? What the fvck is this? Great Expectations? 

Oh man...you need to toss this crazy woman as far out in the billabong as you can. Her and her nut-job mom. Then grab your son and run for your life.


----------



## TX-SC

The nut doesn't fall far from the tree.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> I've got more info than I probably ever needed - there will be no way to "un know" it. The short version is: her mother hooked them up in 2016 - and she has tried to set this up bfeore m- ore than 20 years ago when we (I and STBXW) got serious and moved in together. STBXW succumbed to it this time but now the SOB is not commiting.


Poor me it's my mothers fault and OM won't commit????? Boo hoo

Her mother didn't fvck him and throw you under the bus. Your wife did. Bullsh!t!!!!!!!

Interesting turn of events. So now that her plan A man had his cheap piece of azz he's backing off and she wants you plan B to be her fallback. 

Go through the divorce and let her compete with others for your time.
There are better out there. Write a letter to her mother and let her know she's a low class wh0remaster. I'd expose to all her family.

You don't deserve to be the fall guy for this trash you married into.


----------



## Iver

"not committing" huh? What did she expect? A brand new home and father figure in place?

Jesus. I'm assuming 50-50 custody so my guess is the OM isn't thrilled with the thought of raising a child, even part time. It's funny how real life is quite different from fantasy affair land.

Your MIL is a piece of work. I'd do what you can to keep your son away from her. When it's age appropriate let him know she is a bad person.


----------



## Marc878

You take her back now know the only reason is her plans fell through with her main man.

This would define the rest of your life as such. She doesn't love you and just wants to use you for her welfare.

You are worth more than that status. If you are smart let her live in the bed she made.

Your son is old enough to know the full story. A great life lesson here.


----------



## bandit.45

It's comforting to know that The US is not the only country with hillbilly white trash.


----------



## bandit.45

Marc878 said:


> You take her back now know the only reason is her plans fell through with her main man.
> 
> This would define the rest of your life as such. She doesn't love you and just wants to use you for her welfare.
> 
> You are worth more than that status. If you are smart let her live in the bed she made.
> 
> Your son is old enough to know the full story. A great life lesson here.


Let's not get ahead of ourselves. 

He didn't say she asked him to take her back. It sounds like she just gave him the whole story. More than he wanted to know. In fact she may be just as committed to leaving him as she always was. Maybe she just wanted to get all that crap off her back and come clean. 

After Hantei decompresses and gathers his thoughts, maybe he will elaborate on the entire exchange.


----------



## bankshot1993

So to recap, the MIL burned down her SIL's life,, her grandson's life and her daughter's life, in addition she pimped her daughter out to be used as a masterbation aid to someone that hit it and quit it.

Nice, we should all be so lucky to have such a loving mother. I don't know which is worse, the mother or the daughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TX-SC

bandit.45 said:


> Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
> 
> He didn't say she asked him to take her back. It sounds like she just gave him the whole story. More than he wanted to know. In fact she may be just as committed to leaving him as she always was. Maybe she just wanted to get all that crap off her back and come clean.
> 
> After Hantei decompresses and gathers his thoughts, maybe he will elaborate on the entire exchange.


Agreed. I don't see anything about her asking him to R. My assumption was that this meeting must have been so she can start showing remorse but it may have been more of a "getting it out in the open" thing.

Hentai would be CRAZY to even consider taking her back if she asked. She must surely know that by now. Hentai should concentrate on himself, his son, his job, and that new boat. His STBXW should mean nothing to him now. Just keep his head up, be himself, and enjoy his new life.


----------



## Marc878

bankshot1993 said:


> So to recap, the MIL burned down her SIL's life,, her grandson's life and her daughter's life, in addition she pimped her daughter out to be used as a masterbation aid to someone that hit it and quit it.
> 
> Nice, we should all be so lucky to have such a loving mother. I don't know which is worse, the mother or the daughter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is all on the daughter. Mom may have played a key role but she spread her legs.


----------



## Marc878

bandit.45 said:


> Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
> 
> He didn't say she asked him to take her back. It sounds like she just gave him the whole story. More than he wanted to know. In fact she may be just as committed to leaving him as she always was. Maybe she just wanted to get all that crap off her back and come clean.
> 
> After Hantei decompresses and gathers his thoughts, maybe he will elaborate on the entire exchange.


Maybe but I'd bet money it's at least a feeler to see if he's open to the idea of being the plan B fallback guy. If OM was committed she wouldn't have bothered to spill her guts or try and do damage control here. Sounds like it was blame shifting to her mother when in fact she ultimately did the dirty deed.


----------



## bankshot1993

Marc878 said:


> This is all on the daughter. Mom may have played a key role but she spread her legs.


Oh I completely agree, its all on the daughter. It just blows me away that that somebody would fix up their married daughter to cheat on her husband. It just goes to show where the moral compass in the family comes from.


----------



## bandit.45

Marc878 said:


> Maybe but I'd bet money it's at least a feeler to see if he's open to the idea of being the plan B fallback guy. If OM was committed she wouldn't have bothered to spill her guts or try and do damage control here. Sounds like it was blame shifting to her mother when in fact she ultimately did the dirty deed.


Who knows brother. I imagine she was all over the place with him. It could have gone either way. 

Damn Hantei for keeping us in suspense!


----------



## bandit.45

I just want to add that, judging by what I've seen of Hantei so far, he's a man who knows his own worth, and I would imagine he could see through any smokescreen she tried to throw up. She's not fooling him one bit and I am sue he told her he is no-one's plan B.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> Your MIL?!? Toxic b****.
> 
> As for the OM not committing... Not surprising at all.
> 
> You would be best put to cut her and her family from your life to the greatest extent possible.
> 
> ETA: Does you son know his grandmother set his mother up on a date with the OM?
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


The MIL didn't like him, and encouraged her to "find someone better."

Doesn't matter. 

He's well rid of the whole kit and kaboodle. Yes, let the kids know, when they're old enough.

And fight like hell for as much custody as he can.


----------



## Marc878

bandit.45 said:


> I just want to add that, judging by what I've seen of Hantei so far, he's a man who knows his own worth, and I would imagine he could see through any smokescreen she tried to throw up. She's not fooling him one bit and I am sue he told her he is no-one's plan B.


Yes. Very intelligent and perceptive. Still a lot of crap he's wading through. Unbelievable what he's going through right now. Same for his teenage son to witness this low class sh!t.

Ughhhhhh!!!!!


----------



## Iver

It's not really germane to this discussion but I'm wondering if Hantei's MIL's personal life is a train wreck? 

These are not the actions of a normal, healthy person.


----------



## bandit.45

Iver said:


> It's not really germane to this discussion but I'm wondering if Hantei's MIL's personal life is a train wreck?
> 
> These are not the actions of a normal, healthy person.


Oh I think we can all guess the answer to that.


----------



## farsidejunky

How are you holding up, @Hantei?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## bankshot1993

I'm not suggesting that R is advisable or possible, but if there ever was discussion that leaned in that direction the first condition would be to cut all ties with the toxic MIL. Discussion ends there if there isn't agreement on that first point.


----------



## farsidejunky

bankshot1993 said:


> I'm not suggesting that R is advisable or possible, but if there ever was discussion that leaned in that direction the first condition would be to cut all ties with the toxic MIL. Discussion ends there if there isn't agreement on that first point.


While this is fair, it is not reasonable.

You would be asking her to cut her mother from her life. I simply wouldn't be able to trust that she could continue to do it. 

This is why I see reconciliation as not really being feasible in this case.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## bankshot1993

farsidejunky said:


> While this is fair, it is not reasonable.
> 
> You would be asking her to cut her mother from her life. I simply wouldn't be able to trust that she could continue to do it.
> 
> This is why I see reconciliation as not really being feasible in this case.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I agree that this one point makes R highly unlikely. But he wouldn't be doing something that the mother hasn't already done to her, and that is forcing her to make a choice between her or her husband, he is only verbalizing what the mother did in action.


----------



## JohnA

Wow, Hantei, how on earth did you avoid not going off on the spot? 20 plus years your MIL has been poisoning your marriage. When you get clear of this you are going to be amazed at how great and easy your next relationship will be. You are going to be like a blind person who can suddenly see. 

What else was said and why did your WW chose to tell you now instead of twenty years ago?


----------



## Marduk

I'm just waiting for the part where the boyfriend dumps her and the fog lifts.

I hope that lawyers will be far enough along that there's her ink on paper before that happens.


----------



## farsidejunky

It looks like that has already happened.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> It looks like that has already happened.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I must have missed that. 

I was thinking it just went underground.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TX-SC

farsidejunky said:


> It looks like that has already happened.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I don't recall that he dumped her. Apparently he isn't committing, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are breaking up.


----------



## Marduk

I think all that's happened is the guy refused to leave his wife or baby mamma, and she just clued in that she's just a trumped up **** buddy.

But she's still probably ****ing his brains out whenever he'll let her, just to hold onto hope, because now that's all she has.

And the douche probably started shopping for his next mistress as soon as he found out that her husband knows.


----------



## Lucky1

Hantei, 
Remember in your first post that you refered to yourself as a "glass half full" person? From my read of your posts, I'd say that you have been hoping for R all along. If your MIL is anything like mine, the influence that they can exert on their daughters is extreme. While the mom's influence is no reason to cheat, a concerted and sustained effort by anyone's mother over a ling enough period of time (20 years +) would tend to wear down even the strongest of people. It sounds like your entire family unit has been victimized by your MIL (you, your son, AND your wife). As the husband and father, isn't it your responsibility to protect that family unit (even including your wife). If you do want R, and if your son still wants his mother back, than I STRONGLY suggest that you act decisively to take control of the situation. 1) Use whatever influence you have with your wife to get her to leave her parents home, and move her back into yours. 2) Do whatever you can to limit contact between your wife and her mother. 3) Use MC and IC and rebuild your marriage. 4) Confront the OM and DEMAND no further contact with your wife (or he will be dealing with you). Most of the other posters here are telling you to "kick her to the curb". If that's what you choose to do, than your family unit is already gone. So what do you have to lose by jumping into action and taking firm control of the situation now? Are you still that "glass half full" guy?, if so, then take decisive action and TAKE BACK YOUR FAMILY! If things still don't work out, what will you have lost? GO FOR IT!!! This approach worked well for me. I hope and pray for your success.


----------



## farsidejunky

TX-SC said:


> I don't recall that he dumped her. Apparently he isn't committing, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are breaking up.


Post 405. Hantei said he won't commit. Whether broken up or not, the fact that she admitted to Hantei that the OM won't commit is every bit as devastating. She was counting on his commitment.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## TX-SC

farsidejunky said:


> Post 405. Hantei said he won't commit. Whether broken up or not, the fact that she admitted to Hantei that the OM won't commit is every bit as devastating. She was counting on his commitment.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I agree with that, but it doesn't necessarily mean they broke up.


----------



## Iver

Lucky1 said:


> 4) Confront the OM and DEMAND no further contact with your wife (or he will be dealing with you).


Seriously? And what if Hantei's wife does not want to stop seeing the OM? How will he stop her? 

As for the comment about dealing with the OM, this isn't the Wild West. If Hantei gets violent with the OM then Hantei goes to jail.

And why should he be doing the Pick Me Dance? If she values her marriage and family so little why should Hantei go out on a limb for her? She should be begging him to take her back, not the other way around.


----------



## Be smart

How are you my friend ?

I read your update and situation with your mother in love and this really make me sad. 

I cant see R in your case. Her mom is going to be for a long time in her life and you cant live like that. She hates you,she helped her daughter to hurt you and your son and both of them blame you. Makes me even more sad.

You should grab this opportunity and sign your papers before your wife take some "good advices" from om and mom. They are going to make her change her mind about those papers,so you better hurry up. 

Remember this my friend - your are not to blame and your MIL is not to blame eaither. Only your wife. Nobody forced her. Also forget about her story "I deserve this". 

She wants you to feel gulty over this and she wants you to think you are the one who hurt your son.

Stay strong and take care of your son.


----------



## ing

Remember that Hantei is on Australian timezone. 


The OM not committing is not anything like them breaking up . 
She is rather cruelly talking about her new "relationship" problems with Hantei. 

Stay away from her. far, far away.


----------



## ing

bandit.45 said:


> It's comforting to know that The US is not the only country with hillbilly white trash.


So true. 

Also I don't believe the Mother introduced us line at all. It is her trying to normalize it. 
That evil sideswipe about "succumbing to her desires" after the re-introduction after X years of longing; screams Facebook ( or other social media) hookup to me.


----------



## Hantei

So many great posts and not so much stamina left ATM. Will try to catch up with individual posts later - and sorry, no intent to hype up the suspense, just needed some sleep after a short midnight update. I hope that details below may shed some light.

As a background. My MIL (I obviously don't consider her MIL at all, but will use the acronym for simplicity) is a very influential person, matriarch of the family, "my way or highway" type. Wealthy family, strict upbringing, you know. Her personal life and marriage (answering one of the questions) has the same style - rock solid AFAIK but there's no doubts who always has a final say.

She has always been somewhat cold towards me. The root cause I believe was simply that I was not her choice and my wife (then girlfriend) did not seek any formal approval of our relationship. So in the beginning MIL had "concerns" - that we are moving together way too early, that she (my wife) needs to establish her career 1st, etc. When we got "serious" (after high school) I decided to postpone going to the uni - not only the get the work experience but also to spare us from the relationship supported by parents (you know what I mean - 2 students with no money). So I got a full time job in the field of my preference, not McDonalds or grocery chain, rented an apartment, etc. This was the right move - not only from our relationship point of view, but also for my career - I had a good job straight after I graduated. This infuriated her (and I guess made her think I'm some sort of a loser; in her mind it always been private school, uni, job in law, medicine or finances) and perhaps made her jealous. At that point in time MIL tried to introduce the SOB to her daughter; has was a son of her close friend and was ticking all the boxes above. I now remember him after being reminded (again this was 20+ years ago) being at some family events (my wife's side) for no apparent reason, obviously I didn't pay any attention at that time. My wife was not interested and SOB dropped of the radar soon (interestingly enough he dropped of the uni as well and there was some sort of issue of paying out fees but apparently this did not change my MIL's view of him). He tried different jobs (property, finances, start-ups) ended up as the salesman, has been working in UK for a while and surfaced back here. 

MIL managed to convince my STBXW to meet him in 2016 (I did not get any plausible reason why she agreed to meet him apart from - my interpretation - just being bored with the marriage) and it all went downhill. She admitted he was so romantic, poetical, emotional and "vulnerable" (whatever the hell it means). A small detail (hope it is not TMI) that burned me inside - she told me she was feeling awful after it went physical but the SOB was so "emotional" about that that she has been overwhelmed and pushed her own feelings aside. I confess I chickened out and did not ask what the f#%$ck does that mean - in fear of hearing the details. 

Now about "not committing". I don't know ATM if the broke up or not but this is what I know. After the fallout of the marriage and separation she turned to her father and mother to support but received cold shoulder from her mother (so my MIL style). Apparently whatever happens is for the better and as I'm not fighting to keep my STBXW I am exactly that sort of wrong choice she's been warning her (she HAS to be always right after all). She then turned to SOB who apparently went underground. When she (STBXW) basically confronted him he gave her some bull$$%it story - along the following lines. According to him, the dynamics of relationship between men and women changes over time (like in the past a pre-marital sex was a big no-no, normal these days) so according to STBXW he just told her he represents a more advanced phase where this sort of relationship with married woman is a norm and he never intended for her to end her marriage over that.

It is up to you whether you are going to believe this or not but that is what I've been told. 
I need time to process all of this (and this is nor the whole contents of the discussion) - ATM I haven't made any conclusions.

Sorry, too long, need a break. Thanks for the support it means a lot and does make a difference.


----------



## bandit.45

ing said:


> So true.
> 
> Also I don't believe the Mother introduced us line at all. It is her trying to normalize it.
> That evil sideswipe about "succumbing to her desires" after the re-introduction after X years of longing; screams Facebook ( or other social media) hookup to me.


What is the term for "*******" or "white trash" in Oz?


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> MIL managed to convince my STBXW to meet him in 2016 (I did not get any plausible reason why she agreed to meet him apart from - my interpretation -* just being bored with the marriage) and it all went downhill.* She admitted he was so romantic, poetical, emotional and "vulnerable" (whatever the hell it means). A small detail (hope it is not TMI) that burned me inside - she told me she was feeling awful after it went physical but the SOB was so "emotional" about that that she has been overwhelmed and pushed her own feelings aside. I confess I chickened out and did not ask what the f#%$ck does that mean - in fear of hearing the details.
> .


So your WW threw the marriage away because she was bored.

Think about that Hantei. She told you in a nutshell why she destroyed her family. 

That is fvcking pathetic. If you had been abusing her, neglecting her or been an all around d!ckwad husband, then I could see her building up resentment towards you and using that as a reason for cheating...

No... she was just bored. Oh well....


----------



## Marc878

If it were me I'd do a little exposing of the MIL as low class filth just for my own enjoyment. 

She sounds like an azz hat but stbxw bears the full blame here.

Your son should know their family history since they've blown his current world up.

Sad story. Sorry for you and your son. I know you'll come out ok in the end.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei,

If you don't mind the question what was her purpose in having a talk and telling you all this?

Did you say anything or give her a response.

I really feel and hate the position you're in. It's just sucks big time.


----------



## TDSC60

She went out of her way to tell you that you are boring and did not measure up to her "ideal mate" and that OM did. She bedded the OM.

There are no earth shattering, life changing details or conclusions to draw from finding out a little more about what MIL or OM has or may have done.

Your wife knowingly did what she did. You are not her husband any longer. She gave that job to another. She is not your responsibility any longer. Her future happiness is not your concern.

Stay your course. Do not be side tracked by supposition or speculation about what caused this. It is really very simple. She did it because she wanted to do it. All the rest is just window dressing.


----------



## bandit.45

TDSC60 said:


> She went out of her way to tell you that you are boring and did not measure up to her "ideal mate" and that OM did. She bedded the OM.
> 
> There are no earth shattering, life changing details or conclusions to draw from finding out a little more about what MIL or OM has or may have done.
> 
> Your wife knowingly did what she did. You are not her husband any longer. She gave that job to another. She is not your responsibility any longer. Her future happiness is not your concern.
> 
> Stay your course. Do not be side tracked by supposition or speculation about what caused this. It is really very simple. She did it because she wanted to do it. All the rest is just window dressing.


'Nuff said. :iagree:


----------



## JohnA

This is what you tell your son: "Your grandmother pimped out her daughter out of some type of personal fantasy. Actions count and your grandmother is a piece of trash". 

To your MIL say the things you can't say to your wife. Level her and call her on her bullsyht. I would also isolate your son from the toxic piece of trash. 

I will give give you a hundred to one odds your MIL has stepped out on your FiL. Your FIL needs to see this as a huge red flag. 

Jesus just Jesus. 

Why is she telling you this now?


----------



## TX-SC

All this really means is that she got bored with you and moved on. Now that it didn't work out she is lonely. Don't EVER let this crazy family back into your life. You really need to distance yourself from her.


----------



## Hantei

May I please make it clear on the "bored" statement. This was my and only mine interpretation or attempted explanation on why after initially meeting him (after being convinced my MIL) she didn't do what a happily married women would have done (basically shrugging done (ignoring his advances). She never used word "bored" herself- now at least. 

I have no other reason- can't say we are "incompatible " after all these years and I kind of wish I was some sort of loser abusing fat lasy husband- we could have been in R. Unfortunately I have not. 

Or she just plain and simply fell in love and didn't know right from wrong.

Whatever.


----------



## TX-SC

Hantei said:


> May I please make it clear on the "bored" statement. This was my and only mine interpretation or attempted explanation on why after initially meeting him (after being convinced my MIL) she didn't do what a happily married women would have done (basically shrugging done (ignoring his advances). She never used word "bored" herself- now at least.
> 
> I have no other reason- can't say we are "incompatible " after all these years and I kind of wish I was some sort of loser abusing fat lasy husband- we could have been in R. Unfortunately I have not.
> 
> Or she just plain and simply fell in love and didn't know right from wrong.
> 
> Whatever.


Yes, but your interpretation is probably quite accurate. 

So, did she at any time hint about getting back together? If so, what was your response? Would you take her back if she asked and was remorseful?


----------



## Graywolf2

Hantei said:


> When she (STBXW) basically confronted him he gave her some bull$$%it story - along the following lines. According to him, the dynamics of relationship between men and women changes over time (like in the past a pre-marital sex was a big no-no, normal these days) so according to STBXW he just told her he represents a more advanced phase where this sort of relationship with married woman is a norm and he never intended for her to end her marriage over that.


Tell your wife that the OM has a point and that now you too are at a “more advanced phase.” 

You two can take one of two paths:

1.	Get a divorce and have a business relationship because of your son. 

2.	Get a divorce and get the same deal that she gave the OM. No strings attached sex. Live with her if you want because in the “more advanced phase” shacking up is fine.


----------



## Dyokemm

"When she (STBXW) basically confronted him he gave her some bull$$%it story - along the following lines. According to him, the dynamics of relationship between men and women changes over time (like in the past a pre-marital sex was a big no-no, normal these days) so according to STBXW he just told her he represents a more advanced phase where this sort of relationship with married woman is a norm and he never intended for her to end her marriage over that."

lmao....WTF????

This is about the most pathetic line of horsecrap I have ever heard.

So now it represents a 'more advanced' phase of human development to slink around f*cking other men's wives.....and they should just stfu and enjoy the fun secretly and not burden him with trying to have a real relationship?

This guy is a true POS....what in the h*ll do women ever see in trash like this?

And the MIL sounds even more f*cking stupid than the WW to have thought this turd represented a better option for her daughter than a man who had devoted 20+ years to her, supported her well, and fathered her grandson.

Hantei,

I think your WW is having serious buyer's remorse right now....she realizes NOW just how much of a useless sack of sh*t her OM is.....and the fact that you are refusing to fight for her or even give her the time of day in reality, has woken her up to the fact she p*ssed away her life and family for nothing.

I predict she will end up hating her own M in the future for ever suggesting she meet this POS.....especially after you move on to someone else.


----------



## Hantei

Graywolf2 said:


> Tell your wife that the OM has a point and that now you too are at a “more advanced phase.”
> 
> You two can take one of two paths:
> 
> 1.	Get a divorce and have a business relationship because of your son.
> 
> 2.	Get a divorce and get the same deal that she gave the OM. No strings attached sex. Live with her if you want because in the “more advanced phase” shacking up is fine.



That is somehow cruel... but it also somehow deserved by her.


----------



## Marc878

Maybe it would have been better to not have met her. Those old times are gone. Nothing will be like it used to be.

Your thoughts Hantei?????


----------



## Hantei

The last 2 paragraphs is pretty much what she's told me (differences in vocabulary aside). Which triggers me to post the remaining part of the update- also answering @Lucky1 and @TX-SC posts.





Dyokemm said:


> "When she (STBXW) basically confronted him he gave her some bull$$%it story - along the following lines. According to him, the dynamics of relationship between men and women changes over time (like in the past a pre-marital sex was a big no-no, normal these days) so according to STBXW he just told her he represents a more advanced phase where this sort of relationship with married woman is a norm and he never intended for her to end her marriage over that."
> 
> lmao....WTF????
> 
> This is about the most pathetic line of horsecrap I have ever heard.
> 
> So now it represents a 'more advanced' phase of human development to slink around f*cking other men's wives.....and they should just stfu and enjoy the fun secretly and not burden him with trying to have a real relationship?
> 
> This guy is a true POS....what in the h*ll do women ever see in trash like this?
> 
> And the MIL sounds even more f*cking stupid than the WW to have thought this turd represented a better option for her daughter than a man who had devoted 20+ years to her, supported her well, and fathered her grandson.
> 
> Hantei,
> 
> I think your WW is having serious buyer's remorse right now....she realizes NOW just how much of a useless sack of sh*t her OM is.....and the fact that you are refusing to fight for her or even give her the time of day in reality, has woken her up to the fact she p*ssed away her life and family for nothing.
> 
> I predict she will end up hating her own M in the future for ever suggesting she meet this POS.....especially after you move on to someone else.


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> That is somehow cruel... but it also somehow deserved by her.



Cruel is what she is doing to you. This is being slightly petty in an awesome way, much like sending calendar invites. That is still and will always be awesome. Still laughing about it.


----------



## JohnA

I PM you the definition of a player. That is who she traded up for. 

Your history sounds like my father. Remember this occurred in the fifties. He was from a broken home, did not have a degree and married the daughter of a successful attorney. The night before the wedding her parents went to her and told her it was not to late to change her mind. Both of my patents are gone now, but no one including her patents thinks she made a mistake in telling her parents to go to hell, they could support her marriage or get out of her life. They fell into line and came to admire my dad. 

As to fighting for her, I would suggest you go back and re-read the post on "let her go". She is looking for sympathy from her husband telling you these things. Unfortunately she murdered him. At this point all this info is just a life lesson to apply to your next marriage. A women posted this on another board years ago, I suggest this is who you want to be. 

Why improve yourself*

As a side note I always find it very interesting when a person is hammering their ex mate so hard for cheating and refuses to accept any responsibility for anything that might have been wrong in the marriage.

My husband's exwife cheated on him and left him for the OM. She was pregnant by OM before the divorce was final. When I met him he admitted he knew he'd done things in the marriage which left it vulnerable to an affair.*

He owned his behavior.*

He didn't condone her affair but he accepted responsibility for his part in the demise of their marriage. That was something I had to respect. He worked on himself, in therapy, while they were separated and divorcing. When she wouldn't go to MC, he went alone, and I have reaped the benefit from that counseling. *


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> What was totally surprised is the reaction of her parents (mostly mother). It looked like they are surprised but not shocked for the lack of better terms. Felt like they (she) new something is coming, requests to “try to work things out” were very brief an casual and she (my WW) seems to be getting their full support in moving on. Sure, her mother is very “my way or highway” but I would have never thought her daughter’s marriage was so irrelevannt?


Hantei, your post on when you did exposure makes sense now.

Blood is always thicker than water but......You can never win with those type people. I suspect your wife maybe more like her mother than you think. Another reason to stay out of that mess.

I would explain very carefully to my son in details how this all came about. You do not want him turning onlookers them. He's old enough to understand.


----------



## Marc878

I suspect your wife and family think a lot of themselves. Why would you not fight for the marriage as if they are something regally special?

I think you said something like this in previous posts.

"Why would I want a wife who goes out spreads her legs and fvcks other men"???

Ok, ok I embellished it somewhat!!!!


----------



## Hantei

OK, the rest of the updat - I'll try to post in in a form of answering some questions asked (in no specific order).

Am I still a "glass half full" person? I hope I am (or will return to that state eventually) - however I'm happy to be the one only when no one pisses in that glass. After that it goes straight to the garbage bin (not even a dishwasher). 

Why - all of a sudden - did she have an urge to talk to me? She made it very clear: She has no one else ATM. Her parents - you got (I hope) a picture of her mother by now and her father (nice bloke) is angry like never before (quote). My parents who loved my STBXW like their own daughter (cliché but true) - she "can't reach out to them after what she's done". Friends - they all assume we are or will be working things out, except the few who thing our marriage is kaput. So I'm the one who remains - and I have to admit she has merits in approaching me for support as I have always been a fixer and perhaps a bit of what you called KISA.

What did she do it and has she broke up with the SOB? She said she felt in love (which I believe) and that she doesn't love him anymore (I'm sceptical). She said basically that she acted like "stupid cow” taking emotional empathy for love at her age and she can see the SOB doesn't have a spine. (I was tempted to but avoided making comments about other body parts he apparently has). According to her she stopped any contact with him and is trying to move out of her parents to stop contact with MIL (subtle hint for me to invite her back to our house?). That she never stopped loving me (nice way of showing that - I told her I doubt she wispered "I love you Hantei" to his ear in the heat of an f$$$$%g" moment - and had to fetch her a glass of water as she was sobbing so hard I got scared I’ll have to call ambulance). Yes, he is a player, good on him, I'll catch up on that.

Am I plan B - yes, at least ATM.

Does she want us to R? Don't know. The only thing she said is that she realises she has burned all the bridges and I'm not a person who would ever forget what she has done so "I'd love to but there is no point, I ruined everything". She "knows by now that is the only battle you (means I) will not be willing to fight". Perhaps she is right.

Will I ever take her back? I honestly don't know. I want to so badly at times. I'd say "yes" if I would be responsible for some identified issues in our life together that I could own myself (unfortunately - and I mean it - I can find nothing of that scale, believe me or not) and if she'd start behaving like a remorseful WW - thanks to TAM I have an idea of what should it roughly look like. I'd likely to be able to fix everything else, but not herself. Without the above - I doubt it, there is no point.


----------



## Marc878

Her an her family consider themselves to be above everyone else. She is to proud to ask for reconciliation. And her family will not allow it either. They are shocked at you for not bowing down and begging, pleading to remain a part of their self perceived high and mighty family.

If any reconciliation were to occur you would have to open that door but it would be on her and her families terms. Can you say cuckold/doormat???? From what you've posted you would be wasting your time and life plus setting a poor example for your son to follow.

I know these types well. Do as I say not as I do. Everyone is a lower glass even though they are low class POS.

Their kind can kiss my azz up into the red.


----------



## Hantei

eric1 said:


> Cruel is what she is doing to you. This is being slightly petty in an awesome way, much like sending calendar invites. That is still and will always be awesome. Still laughing about it.


Week view in my calendar: Car service; financial advisor; [our sport] seminar and presentation at local school; Separation discussion with STBXW. Dentist.


----------



## Marc878

You need to take some time and think ahead. The one thing if YOU offer reconciliation. You lose!!!!

She should be asking for your grace. Not you. She did the dirty deed here. Would you have ever cheated on her??? No ones perfect but this is as low a thing one person can do to another.

It would take years of the both of you to make it!!!

Long term can you live with all this? Her loving and having sex with her and her family's pick of the liter??

If you can't you will be wasting your life on this. Understand this will never ever go away.

Maybe get away from TAM a few days and clear your head. The rest of your life will be defined on what you do in the next weeks/months.


----------



## Dyokemm

I am curious about what MIL is saying in all this.

My bet is she is backtracking her involvement/encouragement now....especially if I understood your post correctly and that FIL is livid that your WW has destroyed her family with this POS.

I just have a mental image of her saying, "I just said you should catch up with him as a friend....I never meant you should destroy your M with an A,,,,,,you are stupid and misunderstood my intentions"....blah, blah, blah.

If FIL is as furious as you say, MIL probably doesn't want him to know the extent to which she pushed this A.

Especially, as someone else pointed out, as this would be a huge red flag on MIL's past behavior.

I know if I was M, and found out my W helped facilitate and encourage my daughter's A, I would be VERY suspicious of just when and how she became so nonchalant about infidelity....and any suspicions I might have from the past would take on a whole new level of importance.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei, I am normally a fan of reconciliation. I think it might still be possible in your situation. But not right now. Here is why.

She is still trying to get you to be her KISA. She is trying to get you to save her. 

Those saying she must ask for reconciliation are right.

I would make one statement to her, and leave the ball in her court.

"Wife, I bailed you out too much in our marriage. I enabled you. I will never be an enabler for you again. If you want to he saved, it is up to you."

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

You married and made vows to her 20 years ago. Are you the perfect husband? No. None of use are. 

I understand your thoughts. Why would you have to fight for the woman who broke her vows to you? Just let her go.

Tell her after the divorce if she gets her head cleared and some therapy maybe you can date but she will have to compete with other women.

I guarantee there are many who would love to have you for a husband and in their bed with less baggage than this.


----------



## Marc878

The big problem with reconciliation is her family. I don't see the proud daughter of the very illustrious family (jesting here) doing the heavy lifting required. Admitting that the adultery was all on her. Hantie would have to take her back and rugsweep the whole affair. Suck it up and pretend it never happened. Could he do this????? 

Long term live with her family thinking the better man (the POS) got away.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Dyokemm

Marc878 said:


> The big problem with reconciliation is her family. I don't see the proud daughter of the very illustrious family (jesting here) doing the heavy lifting required. Admitting that the adultery was all on her. Hantie would have to take her back and rugsweep the whole affair. Suck it up and pretend it never happened. Could he do this?????
> 
> Long term live with her family thinking the better man (the POS) got away.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong.


Personally,

I think that if Hantei decides to try R....it should be with the condition of completely cutting off MIL from the family FOREVER.

WW can go occasionally to see her on her own (I would never forbid someone to see their own mom), but that woman should never be invited to a family function or holiday again, including the son's graduation and eventual M, birth of children, etc.

In Hantei's position, I would insist that I NEVER saw or talked to that woman ever again.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantai I think the best thing you can do now is step back, stop initiating or continuing conversation with her, and just watch her for the next few days or even weeks. 

I can guarantee you she, at this moment, is most likely blowing up OM's phone desperately trying to get him to see reason. She has convinced herself you will never take her back, so why should she even try to reconcile with you? She will fight for him until the bitter end., until she is sure there is nothing left there. 

And, you can assume that she was only telling the truth about 10% of the time during your conversation with her. She is desperate, and desperate people lie. She doesn't know her ass from a hole in the ground right now. Indeed, she most likely is hoping you will sweep her up and save her. But you know if you do that she will lose what micron of respect she has left for you. So don't.

Just stay back, stay patient and watch her. If true remorse comes, it will come slowly and you will know it when you see it. Like I said, right now she is feeling guilt, shame and self loathing. Those are inward focused feelings. Remorse is an outward focused feeling, where she takes your pain and makes it her own. You will know it when you see it.

....if it happens. Which it might not.


----------



## Hantei

I agree. Note that the physical aspect of the affair (simply put they were f#$/ing) is only starting to get painful.





bandit.45 said:


> Hantai I think the best thing you can do now is step back, stop initiating or continuing conversation with her, and just watch her for the next few days or even weeks.
> 
> I can guarantee you she, at this moment, is most likely blowing up OM's phone desperately trying to get him to see reason. She has convinced herself you will never take her back, so why should she even try to reconcile with you? She will fight for him until the bitter end., until she is sure there is nothing left there.
> 
> And, you can assume that she was only telling the truth about 10% of the time during your conversation with her. She is desperate, and desperate people lie. She doesn't know her ass from a hole in the ground right now. Indeed, she most likely is hoping you will sweep her up and save her. But you know if you do that she will lose what micron of respect she has left for you. So don't.
> 
> Just stay back, stay patient and watch her. If true remorse comes, it will come slowly and you will know it when you see it. Like I said, right now she is feeling guilt, shame and self loathing. Those are inward focused feelings. Remorse is an outward focused feeling, where she takes your pain and makes it her own. You will know it when you see it.
> 
> ....if it happens. Which it might not.


----------



## leftfield

This is my first post. Nobody on here knows me from Adam so feel free to ignore my suggestion.

Most humans do not know how to behave when the SHTF, so sometimes they need to be taught. You can teach her without putting yourself in a more vulnerable spot.

With that in mind, one thing I would consider if I was in your shoes is asking the following:

Why aren't you asking for my forgiveness? Why aren't you on your knees begging me for another chance? Are you so full of pride that you can not admit when you do wrong? Are you as selfish as your mother and can not recognize the carnage you have created? Are you so blind that your going to let the best thing that ever happened to you walk away with out giving it your best?

With these questions you are essentially teaching her what she has done wrong and how she should be acting. <b> Notice, that you never actually say you will take her back. You are not opening a door. </b> You are not giving her power over you, but you are giving her the power of knowledge. 

If you do this do not actually offer her anything. This is a teaching moment, plus you get to find out more about her.

Many people will suggest that it is no longer your job to teach her. That is legit. You get to decide what you want.


----------



## Hantei

You are not wrong except that she's admitted cheating is her fault and nothing to do with me. She reiterated that her wishing me to be more emotionally open does not excuse the affair.





Marc878 said:


> The big problem with reconciliation is her family. I don't see the proud daughter of the very illustrious family (jesting here) doing the heavy lifting required. Admitting that the adultery was all on her. Hantie would have to take her back and rugsweep the whole affair. Suck it up and pretend it never happened. Could he do this?????
> 
> Long term live with her family thinking the better man (the POS) got away.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> You are not wrong except that she's admitted cheating is her fault and nothing to do with me. She reiterated that her wishing me to be more emotionally open does not excuse the affair.


Oh...women cheaters always pull that "emotional openness" card out when they have no other hand to play. It gets old hearing it. 

I guarantee you the OM is no more emotionally open than you are. He's just a smooth talker....a con...a player. He told her exactly what she wanted to hear. Fvcker ought to be a used car dealer.


----------



## Hantei

bandit.45 said:


> Oh...women cheaters always pull that "emotional openness" card out when they have no other hand to play. It gets old hearing it.
> 
> I guarantee you the OM is no more emotionally open than you are. He's just a smooth talker....a con...a player. He told her exactly what she wanted to hear. Fvcker ought to be a used car dealer.


Well, he is in sales. And they were crying together (I have alluded this before). Sorry, not me.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> Well, he is in sales. And they were crying together (I have alluded this before). Sorry, not me.


:slap:


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> You are not wrong except that she's admitted cheating is her fault and nothing to do with me. She reiterated that her wishing me to be more emotionally open does not excuse the affair.


I understand. However, there's a difference between admitting that to you and owning it.

A lot of men including me have the issue of not being emotionally open.
Got it. I work on that but we all have flaws that need fixed, etc.

Correct, nothing excuses the deceit and betrayal of infidelity. As you've experienced. Would you have ever betrayed her like this???? 

Marriage has to be owned 50/50. Doesn't mean both parties are perfect.


----------



## Dyokemm

Hantei,

This is really a crappy situation....I feel for you.

Your WW was a completely selfish and disgusting traitor.

But the fact that the final motivation and impetus that may have convinced her to go for it came from your MIL makes this A exponentially worse.

In your shoes, I would have to consider not only could I ever forgive the WW....but I would be almost as torn by wanting to never again have a connection with the MIL.

As I said above, I think that woman has to go from your life forever.

Also....at some point in the future, R or D, I think you should talk to your FIL and tell him exactly what MIL did to cause this entire A.

Your WW has been exposed as the traitorous cheat she is....your MIL deserves to be exposed and shamed for the enabling snake she is.


----------



## Marc878

Dyokemm said:


> Personally,
> 
> I think that if Hantei decides to try R....it should be with the condition of completely cutting off MIL from the family FOREVER.
> 
> WW can go occasionally to see her on her own (I would never forbid someone to see their own mom), but that woman should never be invited to a family function or holiday again, including the son's graduation and eventual M, birth of children, etc.
> 
> In Hantei's position, I would insist that I NEVER saw or talked to that woman ever again.


I agree but could she pull the load that's needed in reconciliation long term???? From what I've seen. No. He can't do it alone or with minimal support from her. Unless he's ok with an uneven loaded marriage.


----------



## Marc878

I suspect right now she's still addicted to her other man and is somewhat confused at where all the golden rainbows and unicorns went.


----------



## Marc878

Better think with your head here because your heart will betray you in this situation.

All the boohoo tears are probably because it didn't work out like the wife intended. Now she's freaking a bit. 

One thing to remember she never gave a second thought to you or your son when she was underneath her lover or maybe on top whatever position they were in.


----------



## TX-SC

Hentai, before you make any decisions, go back and read the fifth paragraph of your original post. She not only cheated on you, but she told you that she felt choked for 2 years by your marriage and needed someone that understood her better. Can she explain those statements?


----------



## Iver

I think it's way too soon to make any decisions. Let the dust settle first and see what's what. 

Your wife is waking up to the fact she dumped her marriage to be no more than a booty call for a player. I'm also not convinced the story about the MIL is 100% true. If reconciliation is an option let her know a polygraph is going to happen. 


If the MIL did push the OM on your wife she'd need to be 100% out of your wife's life or you two have no chance of making the marriage work. She'd have to pick mom or pick husband because she can't pick both.


----------



## JohnA

Hantei, 

She is either Gray Rocking (Going ?Gray Rock? with a Narcissist | Narcissist Support) in attempt to convince others she is better then she is or is desperate for reconciliation.

Her comments are not unlike a dog showing it's belly as a sign if submission. In short you nailed it when you mentioned being a KISA. In someways that is a very female reaction, it is giving you a chance to be her KISA. Which shows you were not the only clueless person in your marriage. What she needs to do is tell you she will get you back. Acknowledge what has happened but tell you she will never give up. 

Reconciliation requires real strength and "emotional vulnerability and empathy" on her part, has she ever shown any of these qualities? 

In any wvent


----------



## Marc878

Iver said:


> I think it's way too soon to make any decisions. Let the dust settle first and see what's what.


Excellent advice. 

Go as dark as possible for awhile. You'll know at some point. She needs to make the first step. 

When/if she does say something to the effect of "I loved you for 20 years and would never have done this to you".

I hope it works out for you no matter which way you choose.

Good luck


----------



## bankshot1993

Hentai, I'm at a loss as I'm sure a lot of us are. None of us can take away the pain you're feeling or make the situation you are in go away.

Whatever comes of this know that we are all behind you and supporting you. Good luck, i hope a little sunshine comes your way soon, you sure could use it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Hantei, 

She is either Gray Rocking (Going ?Gray Rock? with a Narcissist | Narcissist Support) in attempt to convince others she is better then she is or is desperate for reconciliation.

Her comments are not unlike a dog showing it's belly as a sign if submission. In short you nailed it when you mentioned being a KISA. In someways that is a very female reaction, it is giving you a chance to be her KISA. Which shows you were not the only clueless person in your marriage. What she needs to do is tell you she will get you back. Acknowledge what has happened but tell you she will never give up. 

Reconciliation requires real strength and "emotional vulnerability and empathy" on her part, has she ever shown any of these qualities? 

In any event @Dyokemm as usual nailed it when discussing the possible reaction of your FIL. If I where him I would be looking very carefully at his wife.


----------



## JohnA

Bye the way have you read @LosingHim main thread "under a microscope "? Great example of what is possible. Also http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html. That thread was started by B1 and his wife @EI joined in at a later date. EI was totally unrepentant at the start. In fact she had grown to hate her husband. Yet by the end she was all in and had no intention of letting B1 go. 

You have time now. The law gives you a year. Use it to figure out what you want at the end of the day.


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> One thing to remember she never gave a second thought to you or your son when she was underneath her lover or maybe on top whatever position they were in.


Ouch. No worries R is not on the table ATM in a very distant future at best and based on conditions (that is my logic speaking, my heart may deviate but not ATM). MIL is dead to me - going to be one of these conditions. And no, I'm not ok with uneven marriage, if anything it'll have to be balanced back to me. I gave this bloody marriage all I had in me.


----------



## Hantei

TX-SC said:


> Hentai, before you make any decisions, go back and read the fifth paragraph of your original post. She not only cheated on you, but she told you that she felt choked for 2 years by your marriage and needed someone that understood her better. Can she explain those statements?


She tried. Doesn't seem to be standing up by this claims now but hey everything said about fog and SOB dumping her seems plausible.


----------



## Hantei

JohnA said:


> Bye the way have you read @LosingHim main thread "under a microscope "? Great example of what is possible. Also http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html. That thread was started by B1 and his wife @EI joined in at a later date. EI was totally unrepentant at the start. In fact she had grown to hate her husband. Yet by the end she was all in and had no intention of letting B1 go.
> .


Yes I did. @EI and @LosingHim are inspiration, however my case doesn't fit the pattern for both H and W . I'm going to avoid direct comparison but I think it's obvious.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> Ouch. No worries R is not on the table ATM in a very distant future at best and based on conditions (that is my logic speaking, my heart may deviate but not ATM). MIL is dead to me - going to be one of these conditions. And no, I'm not ok with uneven marriage, if anything it'll have to be balanced back to me. I gave this bloody marriage all I had in me.


I like others want you to come out of this in the best shape possible.

Don't get me wrong a successful reconciliation is the best outcome if it's feasible especially with kids and a long marriage but rushing into one like most do is a huge mistake. You don't want to go through this a second time and many do.

You were strong from the get go and that is a tremendous advantage to what shape most of the folks who come here are in. You didn't hold back on exposure, etc. You have shown no fear. You got it quick. All good things. 

You have a long road ahead of you but there's a lot of excellent support here from others who have been there before you.

Don't hesitate to contact anyone anytime. That's what PM is for.

As with any advice apply common sense to your situation. 

Wishing you and your son the best.


----------



## Marc878

In most cases when you do exposure it stops the affair. Affairs thrive in secrecy and in the dark. When you shine the bright light of exposure on it shows very clearly to those concerned what it really is. 

That's probably why the SOB disappeared. You were quick and thorough. 

Most are in fear of p!ssing someone off but more often than not it works. If it doesn't there was nothing really to save anyway. The reality is they are already gone and long term you won't push them any further away than they were.

Infidelity should have consequences. IMO this was huge for you. SOB and everyone knows one thing now you are not timid or weak.


----------



## Marc878

if i were you i would send that SOB a PRE Get Well card.

sign it in red ink for the proper effect naturally. 

I'd mail it to his work address. 

nothing fancy a cheap one will do.

just say in case you aren't feeling well in the future.


----------



## JohnA

My point was not that these women where in a sn exact match for your experience. No two marriages are the same. Rather my point is both of them realized the worth of what was lost and fought to get it back. 

Your MIL, I bugged you a couple of times to look at her friends I would look at her friends and her MIL friends as well. Anyone who does not realize who a person chooses to be close to is either a red flag or a green flag is a fool. Keep this in mind going forward when deciding to get involved with a woman.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Here is my only question in which I know she really can't answer with out showing her cards, if things were still rosy with OM, would she even be sitting done with you crying? The prodigal son (wife) wants to come home.


----------



## eric1

This doesn't mean much much @Hantei and @went are two active threads here which are templates on how to handle this.

If you notice they're both obviously had their emotional worlds rocked, but they're not in despair for their lives.

Taking the 'hard line' is often considered cruel but is it? It woke both women out of fogs near immediately, the betrayed have what many others are missing - empowerment over their own lives, and now all any of them have to take about of if THEY want to offer the gift of reconciliation.

I wish that I could wrap up both threads and make any betrayed who comes here and hems and haws about not: 1. Exposing 2. Seeking legal counsel as the first steps.


----------



## Chaparral

bandit.45 said:


> What is the term for "*******" or "white trash" in Oz?


I think its just the opposite. Snooty, upper class, spoiled brat failure from moneyed family.0


----------



## Chaparral

I used to recommend reconcilliation often, now I rarely do. in this case however, I want to say there are many wayward spouses to beat down by the situation to even ask for reconcilliation. Your wife's appearance says it all.

Not only does she think, knowing you, that she has stupidly crossed a line that can't be fixed, she has been played by her mother and a loser playboy wantabe.

She has lost her husband, her son, her home her friends, her family.

Though I don't know her, I would be concerned about her mental state and her possibly hurting herself.

Many waywards are to beat down to ask to come back. Just be aware of that. It doesnt mean they are unworthy, just that they hold their betrayed spouse in high esteem.


----------



## Graywolf2

TX-SC said:


> Hentai, before you make any decisions, go back and read the fifth paragraph of your original post. She not only cheated on you, but she told you that she felt choked for 2 years by your marriage and needed someone that understood her better.


I will never understand this. In the WS’s mind the marriage was bad enough for them to cheat. It didn’t supply whatever they needed. Then they cheat and get caught. This makes the marriage far worse. Trust is lost and there is anger. Now they will do anything to save their crappy marriage that is suddenly even worse than it was.


----------



## eric1

It's not that they thought about the marriage. At the early stages of an affair the only real truth is they they consider themselves more important than the marriage.

This is why reconciliation can go so poorly. The wayward needs to intrinsically change, not just modify existing behaviors.


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> so according to STBXW he just told her he represents a more advanced phase where this sort of relationship with married woman is a norm and he never intended for her to end her marriage over that.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH!!!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Is this what they call schadenfreude ? Pretty creative reason.


And based on the rest of the story, something more went on with this SOB 20 years back that you still don't know about. She lied about it and you believed her. 

I am also concerned if she lying both to you and MIL. Her mother's reaction now doesn't make sense.


----------



## GusPolinski

Sooo... your MIL has been trying to push this guy onto your WW for the past 20+ years?

Here you go.









_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Graywolf2

Hantei said:


> And no, I'm not ok with uneven marriage, if anything *it'll have to be balanced back to me*. I gave this bloody marriage all I had in me.


This is how I would get the balance back. I would keep doing what you’re doing until your divorce is final in a year. Then I would evaluate the situation. Do I want to go our separate ways, live together or just date? 

Your wife demonstrated that she’s not up to the wife level of trust. Demote her to girlfriend. Maybe she can handle that. She can’t complain about “living in sin” because two single people living together is much better than a married couple with one of them cheating. Plus today it’s totally acceptable for never married people to live together and have kids.

I know that this would help me heal. When I trigger seeing her happy as if nothing happened I can remind myself that we are no longer married and calm down. There will not be as much need to review what she did because she paid a price. It’s over. Being divorced if she cheats again it will hurt but not as much. Plus it will be very simple to walk away.


----------



## eric1

sparrow555 said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH!!!!!
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Is this what they call schadenfreude ? Pretty creative reason.
> 
> 
> And based on the rest of the story, something more went on with this SOB 20 years back that you still don't know about. She lied about it and you believed her.
> 
> *I am also concerned if she lying both to you and MIL. Her mother's reaction now doesn't make sense*.


I agree. From an outsider's perspective something is not lining up.


----------



## farsidejunky

eric1 said:


> I agree. From an outsider's perspective something is not lining up.


I missed something. What reaction from the MIL doesn't make sense?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

****ing a married woman is a more advanced phase?

And she bought it?

Is your wife an idiot?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Oh and find the guys wife and tell her. 

Let's see how "advanced" he really is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 86857

Hantei, what has come out is breathtaking, even for TAM. MIL, WS & SOB all plotting behind your back is despicable, grrrrrrr!

I would expose MIL to FIL & EVERYONE. You can ask them to keep it from your son for now. Apart from what she did to you, imagine trying to break up her teenage grandson's home & put him through the hell of D and have him live some of the time with a SOB who trashed his Dad by having an A with his Mom. Twisted. And yes, you never have to meet her again. 

WS must NOT use MIL as an excuse AT ALL. Make it clear that the A is 100% hers. An A is an A is an A. 

R has to be driven 100% by WS. Saying 'she has burnt all bridges and this is a battle you won’t fight' is her way of getting you to say, “No, of course not darling, I want to R.” and getting you to drive it. Don’t fall for it. 
You don’t have to say anything or commit to anything when you talk to her. Take all the time you need to respond if/when she makes suggestions. You said you know from TAM what a remorseful spouse looks like. 

Assuming she acts like a remorseful spouse, you need to decide whether to do R. Three things will be a challenge:
- Will you ever be able to bring yourself to trust her 100% again. Living with someone you don't trust is hell, the uneasiness, the monitoring etc. . . I've been there. 
- Will you always wonder whether she would have gone with OM if he hadn’t dumped her. 
- Can you deal with the physical part, the mind movies which hang around for a long time. You said the physical part is now only beginning to hit home. For many, it's the deal breaker. 

You know yourself best & try to be honest with yourself. IC might help to trash it out. 

And the implications for your son? 
If you guys D, now that OM has chickened out, your son won't have to be under the same roof as him which is a damn fine thing. 
In a few years your son will be an adult & will get a job/uni/gap year travel etc. with a life of his own even if he lives at home. Don't forget it will then be very much just be you and WS, another reason to make sure you make a good decision for yourself now. So much damage has been done to his home already, D or not. Also, I think D won't be anything near as big a deal compared to if he was younger. 
Bottom line is your son needs a happy Dad so Dad needs to do what makes Dad happy. 

Also, if you decide to do R, there is no law saying you have to stay in R. You can walk away anytime if you decide it's not going to work for you. 

How is your son doing? Does he know what's going on? Maybe it's better to meet WS on neutral ground, away from your son, for discussions, a café etc, if you are not already doing so. 

My best to you and your son.


----------



## bandit.45

Chaparral said:


> I think its just the opposite. Snooty, upper class, spoiled brat failure from moneyed family.0


Rich white trash. It's not the money or status...it is the lack morality and ethics of the family in question. 

I know a lot of white trash who live in $10 million dollar homes. I used to work for one. He was scum of the earth...with a Ferrari.


----------



## JohnA

@marduk yes she is an idiot. Unless she wakes up and fights for her marriage we need to get her a T-shirt that reads: 

Property of a player - please pass me on to the next player.


----------



## sparrow555

There is no fighting for marriage here. @Hantei (Hentai ), you shouldn't even encourage thoughts of getting back with her even if she remorseful. There is nothing worth saving in this marriage. The way she went about it and how cruel she was through the whole process until she realized that OM was a con artist(while still glorifying him) , it shows you what kind of person she is. 


It is obvious that your wife takes after her mother, believed all these years that she deserved better than you(or that she settled for you) in the marriage and cheated as soon as she got a chance. 

I believe that more went on than with the POSOM 20 years back what she told you about him. It is also very likely that she is playing her mother and you against one another.


----------



## sparrow555

> She admitted he was so romantic, poetical, emotional and "vulnerable" (whatever the hell it means). A small detail (hope it is not TMI) that burned me inside - she told me she was feeling awful after it went physical but the SOB was so "emotional" about that that she has been overwhelmed and pushed her own feelings aside. I confess I chickened out and did not ask what the f#%$ck does that mean - in fear of hearing the details.



She sounds like gutter trash. Still romanticizing him while shameless asking you to take her back. She still thinks she did nothing wrong. Go absolutely no contact with this woman.


----------



## alte Dame

I'm so sorry that your life has been upended this way. And especially what has happened to your son .

One small favor is that, no matter what happens, you don't even have to be superficially polite anymore to your MIL. She reminds me of the matriarch b!tch in Falcon Crest....And the OM describing his sleazeball behavior as part of a modern paradigm. Ridiculous. He sounds like the cowardly rake in a romance novel who runs for the hills as soon as the heat is on.

I think your WW is coming out of the famous fog. Some people think the notion of the 'fog' is an excuse, but I tend to see it as your typical infatuation/falling-in-love feeling that is heightened by the irreality of a secret relationship.

I agree with the consensus that you have become plan B for her, but it doesn't sound like it was always the case for her (you were your MIL's plan Z, but not your WW's) & she could figure that out. She may already be seeing that.

If she does want to come back and you want to reconcile, please try to remember that there is no going back, only going forward. Going forward means more pain, anger, frustration, mind movies, triggers, etc. for you. You can't sugarcoat this, in my opinion. You would be starting a new marriage. Importantly also, she has to rebuild her relationship with your son. He has probably lost respect for her forever, but he can come to accept her on different terms.

(If she comes 'crawling back' and you want to try to R, please don't be embarrassed here. Please don't let your decision make you stay away from TAM. The people here can help you with the tough stuff of R.)

(And...no matter what, that b!tch of a MIL should be nowhere near your life. Doing what she did to a 20-year marriage (!) is the worst of the worst.)


----------



## TX-SC

Guys, seriously? Hentai and his wife are having issues and he may indeed divorce her. It sounds like he is heading in that direction anyway. I don't see where calling his STBXW gutter trash or white trash is helping him at all. He probably still loves her. 

To me it sounds pretty damn textbook. Woman cheats, OM uses her, woman realizes she made a mistake wants to have her life back. How many of these stories have we seen on these forums, from all walks of life? We don't know anything about the MIL situation except what an admitted liar has told Hentai. 

Hentai, stay steady on your course and don't make any changes in your situation unless you are positive it's right for you and your son. You are living this, not us.


----------



## JohnA

@alte Dame nailed it about MIL. You need to ruthlessly cut her out of your's and your son's life. You need to be blunt with your son about why. I've read of cases where one parent will not attend a wedding or a baptism if the other is invited. In your MIL case you need to be that cut and dry. Please note I am not saying and I believe alte Dame is not too, that you should treat WW in this manner. 

But your MIL owes big time and it is a debt that must be collected.


----------



## Marduk

JohnA said:


> @marduk yes she is an idiot. Unless she wakes up and fights for her marriage we need to get her a T-shirt that reads:
> 
> Property of a player - please pass me on to the next player.


My point was that I don't think she is an idiot. 

I think she believed the unicorn and rainbows lie, and it's dawning on her now. 

Hence "I ruined everything, didn't I."

The answer to that question is "yes" and the natural consequence is to let it be ruined.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TDSC60

marduk said:


> My point was that I don't think she is an idiot.
> 
> I think she believed the unicorn and rainbows lie, and it's dawning on her now.
> 
> *Hence "I ruined everything, didn't I."*
> 
> The answer to that question is "yes" and the natural consequence is to let it be ruined.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She did not ruin everything. 

She intentionally destroyed everything with eyes wide open and without a thought to husband, child, or marriage vows.

Her only thoughts were of herself and what she wanted. No complicate analysis needed. She did this because she wanted to do it. Simple.


----------



## farsidejunky

TDSC60 said:


> She did not ruin everything.
> 
> She intentionally destroyed everything with eyes wide open and without a thought to husband, child, or marriage vows.
> 
> Her only thoughts were of herself and what she wanted. No complicate analysis needed. She did this because she wanted to do it. Simple.


You indicate her thoughts of ruining everything being in past tense. Based on her reaction, I would say she is still only thinking of herself.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> You indicate her thoughts of ruining everything being in past tense. Based on her reaction, I would say she is still only thinking of herself.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


She thought she could get away with it.

So she ruined the safety and sanctity of her marriage. Including for her kids. Hence the guilt.

But she thought she had a safety net in the other man to run to -- that's why she was blasé when she got caught. She was wrong. Hence the shock and realization.

In time, she may actually start to consider her impact to the OP. But not yet.


----------



## Hantei

JohnA said:


> My point was not that these women where in a sn exact match for your experience. No two marriages are the same. Rather my point is both of them realized the worth of what was lost and fought to get it back.
> 
> .


We are on the same page here. What I'm saying is that my STBXW is not doing that.


----------



## Hantei

1st of all - so many great responses, I would like to "like" them all and thank you all. 

@Chaparral - you are right (I refer specifically to the 3rd and 4th paragrpahs of your post #502). I am very concerned. I'm not putting all the details to the public forum (understendably) but she looked like a proverbial shell of herself yesterday (visit time). My son is also concerned. I'm thinking about what can I do - perhaps I'll reach her father today (the risk is he'll tell MIL 100%) or her best friend (but I know she's not engaging with anyone roght now). WRT last paragraph - thanks for that viewpoint, it may be the case although it is too early to tell (ATM it feels like 50/50 - either she will want R or she mourns the loss of the "love of her life" despite trash taling him and don't eant her marriage at all). No making 1st step myself that's for sure but I'd appreciate ideas on the best course of action here.

@GusPolinski and all. To be clear. While possible (hey not so long ago I'd laugh at or punch comebody who would dare to suggest my wife could cheat) it is higly unlikely something happened 20 years ago and/or has been happening in the background. Apart from my own perception (whcih could be flawed) the logistics of our locations and their messages I've intercepted do collaborate this. I'm not going to comment on DNA but it is noted, I do not disupute the motive behind this call. 

@Graywolf2 (#507) - that is a possbility and potential way forward, I guess we are both not there yet. Again, noted.

Not sure what "reaction of MIL does not make sense", but let me please try to clarify here. Based on my own knowledge and the messages I've got the situation is simplier than it sounds (and I have enough of that s$%#%it to deal with the extra hype  ). She (MIL) did not pimp my STBXW to get laid by SOB, and she definitelly did not want her marriage to break. She was OK with the marriage for all these years and loves her grandson dearly. The way I decode all of this is that - being that person who always has to be right and have the final say - she just wanted STBXW to meet the SOB to "see how great he is and her mther was not wrong 20+ years ago". Note. That d$%$ckhead SOB always managed to be some sort of a celebrity in my MIL's circles. He starts law studies at uni than drops it (and needs help in paying uni fees/loans) - but it does not paint him (in their eyes) as a quitter/loser - no, he is just "too creative for that". I know MIL is devastated as well (althouh as usual it's not her fault at all).

On the "new paradigm of the realationship" (thanks @alte Dame, I would like to like your post more than once and agree with it entirely, I'm going to save it as I've done with some other posts) - I'd like to defend my STBXW's IQ here and agree with @marduk #520: the SOB did not use this line to seduce her. He use this line when - after the separation she went to him for support (and maybe/likely a commited relationship) - basically he used it to bail out. "It was just sex" in other words.

I'd appreciate no name calling here - she's still technically my wife and a mother of my son.

Thanks


----------



## Hantei

********** said:


> Hantei, what has come out is breathtaking, even for TAM. MIL, WS & SOB all plotting behind your back is despicable, grrrrrrr!


Thanks **********, I agree with grrrrrrr but as I posted the "plot is not that thick" after all.



> WS must NOT use MIL as an excuse AT ALL. Make it clear that the A is 100% hers. An A is an A is an A.


I agree. To give credit where credit is due - she is not using the "evil MIL made me do it" as an excuse.



> R has to be driven 100% by WS. Saying 'she has burnt all bridges and this is a battle you won't fight' is her way of getting you to say, "No, of course not darling, I want to R." and getting you to drive it. Don't fall for it.


I agree and you and everyone please slap me out of it if you see me "falling for it".



> You said you know from TAM what a remorseful spouse looks like.


I hope so.



> Assuming she acts like a remorseful spouse, you need to decide whether to do R. Three things will be a challenge:
> - Will you ever be able to bring yourself to trust her 100% again. Living with someone you don't trust is hell, the uneasiness, the monitoring etc. . . I've been there.
> - Will you always wonder whether she would have gone with OM if he hadn't dumped her.
> - Can you deal with the physical part, the mind movies which hang around for a long time. You said the physical part is now only beginning to hit home. For many, it's the deal breaker.


- no. Even if we reconcile successfully and live happily ever after and I will know somehow she never cheats again - won't trust her 100% again as I used to. She's already crossed the bridge from "Not Capable of Cheating" to "Capable of Cheating" and that is a one way bridge, she or anyone else can't "un-cross" it.
- yes I will - likely. She's been bloody convincing in painting him as a "tru love of her life". Can a women ever be 2xtimes that convincing to ensure me that was all fog or whatever?
- probably not. I'll get back to it when it fully hit home, but even now I don't like this mind movies and I know it will get worse soon.




> If you guys D, now that OM has chickened out, your son won't have to be under the same roof as him which is a damn fine thing. In a few years your son will be an adult


That is awesome. I didn't think about that. Huge thanks, it lit my day.



> How is your son doing? Does he know what's going on? Maybe it's better to meet WS on neutral ground, away from your son, for discussions, a cafe etc, if you are not already doing so.
> My best to you and your son.


Thank you, he’s is all right given the circumstances, now he is worried about her as well. I'm not having these discussions with STBXW in his presence, however we do it at home as there's too much of a teras and sobbing from her for a public place.


----------



## 86857

> On the "new paradigm of the realationship" (thanks @alte Dame, I would like to like your post more than once and agree with it entirely, I'm going to save it as I've done with some other posts).


Yep Hantei, @alte Dame sure has a way of getting to the nub of things in a few short sentences. I second what she said about everything and most especially about R. If you do R, you will be well supported on here. After all, if truth be told, it's what every BS who comes on here wants(ed). . . me included.


> I'd appreciate no name calling here - she's still technically my wife and a mother of my son.


I especially love this. Again, kudos @Hantei.


----------



## GusPolinski

@Hantei, it would seem to be a forgone conclusion that -- at some point in the near future -- your WW will wind up talking about reconciliation. When she does, remind her of this...



Hantei said:


> ...she needs someone who is enigmatic, artistic and enlightens people around him. Who "stands up in the crowd and lives life to the fullest".


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hantei

GusPolinski said:


> @Hantei, it would seem to be a forgone conclusion that -- at some point in the near future -- your WW will wind up talking about reconciliation. When she does, remind her of this...
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd give it 50/50 at max at the moment (please see my reply to @********** about my STBXW being VERY convincing when she was talking about him). 

But if it happens I will - not to be vengeful (well there will be a degree of that TBH) but to remind her of what she'll have to "un-convince" me from.


----------



## Chaparral

"enigmatic, artistic and enlightens people around him," 

I don't know whether to laugh or vomit. This is his shtick to pick up women. He's a salesman. I'm dying to know what he sells besides his own bull sh it to seduce women.

Has anyone posted the players post on this thread? Hentai needs to print it off and let his wife read it.

Hentai is real life solid man, posom is a con man with a bag of tricks selling paradise.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, I'm sure his marks are usually much younger, gullible women and he will never give that up. 

Has he ever been married?


----------



## sparrow555

> - no. Even if we reconcile successfully and live happily ever after and I will know somehow she never cheats again - won't trust her 100% again as I used to. She's already crossed the bridge from "Not Capable of Cheating" to "Capable of Cheating" and that is a one way bridge, she or anyone else can't "un-cross" it.
> - yes I will - likely. She's been bloody convincing in painting him as a "tru love of her life". Can a women ever be 2xtimes that convincing to ensure me that was all fog or whatever?
> - probably not. I'll get back to it when it fully hit home, but even now I don't like this mind movies and I know it will get worse soon.


So you think R can still happen after she had a physical affair, but is remorseful ? You already were squeamish about some of the details she shared and avoided them, didn't you ? What do you think they talked about you then ?


To me, an R in this situation would be a tragedy. She not only utterly and completely reject you as a person when she went through with the affair but also tried to emasculate you trying to justify the affair. Now with the tail between her legs when everyone dumped her, she comes back like a victim. Who does she come back to ? Yes, the emotionally closed off, childhood sweetheart husband. Not the one she cried with after they had sex. The OM probably could pick up how much crazy she was once she left you and gave her some made up excuse on the spot.(which may or may not be true) 


The fog explanation is bullsh!t in this situation. Imagine doing the same thing to her, putting her through what she put you through..What kind of guy do you have to be ?


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> I'd give it 50/50 at max at the moment (please see my reply to @********** about my STBXW being VERY convincing when she was talking about him).
> 
> But if it happens I will - not to be vengeful (well there will be a degree of that TBH) but to remind her of what she'll have to "un-convince" me from.


Well sure. It's not really to be "vengeful", but rather to offer a bit of reminder w/ respect to her "needs", along w/ the fact that you're freeing her to pursue them.

No reason you can't do it w/ a grin, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

...she needs someone who is enigmatic, artistic and enlightens people around him. Who "stands up in the crowd and lives life to the fullest".

You might want to tell your WW this is tactic players use to get in your pants with. After they get the prize they use it on the next one as well.


----------



## Hantei

sparrow555 said:


> So you think R can still happen after she had a physical affair, but is remorseful ? You already were squeamish about some of the details she shared and avoided them, didn't you ?


 Yes I did (avoid them) however I fail to see how my points above quoted by you led you to the conclusion I am open to R as soon as (if) she is remorseful.


----------



## Hantei

GusPolinski said:


> Well sure. It's not really to be "vengeful", but rather to offer a bit of reminder w/ respect to her "needs", along w/ the fact that you're freeing her to pursue them.
> 
> No reason you can't do it w/ a grin, though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed. Note I did give her that "since this is who you want - I let you go" speech when we started separation and she was in it. Only at the time I meant it literally so no grin was involved.


----------



## Marc878

Hantie,

How are you doing?

You at least know what's going on and seem to be in control (as much as possible) on your end.


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> 1st of all - so many great responses, I would like to "like" them all and thank you all.
> 
> @Chaparral - you are right (I refer specifically to the 3rd and 4th paragrpahs of your post #502). I am very concerned. I'm not putting all the details to the public forum (understendably) but she looked like a proverbial shell of herself yesterday (visit time). My son is also concerned. I'm thinking about what can I do - perhaps I'll reach her father today (the risk is he'll tell MIL 100%) or her best friend (but I know she's not engaging with anyone roght now). WRT last paragraph - thanks for that viewpoint, it may be the case although it is too early to tell (ATM it feels like 50/50 - either she will want R or she mourns the loss of the "love of her life" despite trash taling him and don't eant her marriage at all). No making 1st step myself that's for sure but I'd appreciate ideas on the best course of action here.
> 
> @GusPolinski and all. To be clear. While possible (hey not so long ago I'd laugh at or punch comebody who would dare to suggest my wife could cheat) it is higly unlikely something happened 20 years ago and/or has been happening in the background. Apart from my own perception (whcih could be flawed) the logistics of our locations and their messages I've intercepted do collaborate this. I'm not going to comment on DNA but it is noted, I do not disupute the motive behind this call.
> 
> @Graywolf2 (#507) - that is a possbility and potential way forward, I guess we are both not there yet. Again, noted.
> 
> Not sure what "reaction of MIL does not make sense", but let me please try to clarify here. Based on my own knowledge and the messages I've got the situation is simplier than it sounds (and I have enough of that s$%#%it to deal with the extra hype  ). She (MIL) did not pimp my STBXW to get laid by SOB, and she definitelly did not want her marriage to break. She was OK with the marriage for all these years and loves her grandson dearly. The way I decode all of this is that - being that person who always has to be right and have the final say - she just wanted STBXW to meet the SOB to "see how great he is and her mther was not wrong 20+ years ago". Note. That d$%$ckhead SOB always managed to be some sort of a celebrity in my MIL's circles. He starts law studies at uni than drops it (and needs help in paying uni fees/loans) - but it does not paint him (in their eyes) as a quitter/loser - no, he is just "too creative for that". I know MIL is devastated as well (althouh as usual it's not her fault at all).
> 
> On the "new paradigm of the realationship" (thanks @alte Dame, I would like to like your post more than once and agree with it entirely, I'm going to save it as I've done with some other posts) - I'd like to defend my STBXW's IQ here and agree with @marduk #520: the SOB did not use this line to seduce her. He use this line when - after the separation she went to him for support (and maybe/likely a commited relationship) - basically he used it to bail out. "It was just sex" in other words.
> 
> I'd appreciate no name calling here - she's still technically my wife and a mother of my son.
> 
> Thanks


I think the other man clearly doesn't think highly of your wife. In a way, you dodged a bullet that it wasn't a serious relationship, given that he'd be around your kid. 

And your wife obviously has work to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hantei

marduk said:


> I think the other man clearly doesn't think highly of your wife. In a way, you dodged a bullet that it wasn't a serious relationship, given that he'd be around your kid.
> 
> And your wife obviously has work to do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't thank @********** and now you enough for this. Yes they broke up / he dumped her and - don't care that much about my personal life and emotions, I can deal with this - he won't be around my son. The rest of the competitors on that tatami can go and F $#^ck themselves. Woo-hoo. 

Note to myself to remind STBXW to change her email password.


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> I can't thank @********** and now you enough for this. Yes they broke up / he dumped her and - don't care that much about my personal life and emotions, I can deal with this - he won't be around my son. The rest of the competitors on that tatami can go and F $#^ck themselves. Woo-hoo.
> 
> Note to myself to remind STBXW to change her email password.


She's likely going to have a tearful "please forgive me" moment with you. 

But it will only be driven by "I just went from two men to zero men" and not really "I'm sorry."

I would not recommend considering reconciliation in your case. And I think if you did, odds would be high that sooner or later she'd be doing it again with mr next. 

Because you didn't drive her to cheat from anything you're said. 

And she isn't remorseful. Not really.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> Thanks **********, I agree with grrrrrrr but as I posted the "plot is not that thick" after all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. To give credit where credit is due - she is not using the "evil MIL made me do it" as an excuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree and you and everyone please slap me out of it if you see me "falling for it".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - no. Even if we reconcile successfully and live happily ever after and I will know somehow she never cheats again - won't trust her 100% again as I used to. She's already crossed the bridge from "Not Capable of Cheating" to "Capable of Cheating" and that is a one way bridge, she or anyone else can't "un-cross" it.
> 
> - yes I will - likely. She's been bloody convincing in painting him as a "tru love of her life". Can a women ever be 2xtimes that convincing to ensure me that was all fog or whatever?
> 
> - probably not. I'll get back to it when it fully hit home, but even now I don't like this mind movies and I know it will get worse soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is awesome. I didn't think about that. Huge thanks, it lit my day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, he’s is all right given the circumstances, now he is worried about her as well. I'm not having these discussions with STBXW in his presence, however we do it at home as there's too much of a teras and sobbing from her for a public place.





I'm admittedly blowing smoke up your a$$ but you're putting on a clinic on how to handle this both emotionally and tactically.

It probably doesn't feel that to you though huh


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> Yes I did (avoid them) however I fail to see how my points above quoted by you led you to the conclusion I am open to R as soon as (if) she is remorseful.



Why?


----------



## Marc878

Before anyone considers reconciliation know this

The current marriage can never compete with the affair high (even though it could never last) those memories of the hot times do. 

Hence, the marriage can never be the same after. 

So no matter what it's always plan B IMO.

Sorry but that's reality.


----------



## Iver

I'd encourage you to get your STBXW in therapy. Your son doesn't need to be exposed to his mother having a breakdown.

Not much to add but to say how sad. A grown woman falling for a pick up artists (PUA) line of B.S.


----------



## ing

There is absolutely no evidence that the affair is over, she can cry about her lost life, complain of the other guy not committing and say how stupid it was. This does not mean that it is over.

You are falling victim to hope. 

She is very good at blah, blah, blah.. 

If you really want to find out if the affair is over suggest you two have sex. 
Look at her face when you say it. I suspect it will be hurt and angry

It is the surest way to find out where her loyalties lie without having to listen to lies and deceptions designed to keep you in the loop


I say that it has not ended. As a wise man once said to me..

DIG


----------



## Marduk

If you want to find out if it's over, ask mr advanced's wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Hi Hantei, 

Not letting anyone run down your wife speaks to the quality of your character. If I have crossed a line with my comments please accept my apology. 

I PM you the description that @Chaparral referenced about players. If you like I can resend it. I also have saved F-102 description of how an EA/PA occurs between ex's. Change the wording and it fits any situation and could be viewed as a text book case on to play a woman. You might find it helpful to know how she went for his line of bullshyt. 

What ever you decision going forward - it is your's to make. You are exactly where you need to be in terms of custody and assets division. You commented on the post "just let them go". You actions have put you in position of strength and therefore reconciliation is a possibility. Your defense of your wife is but an element of this. 

Keep posting, the next person through that door will have a concrete example of what to do. 

As to your MIL she needs to own her part. Playing with fire, is playing with fire. At the very least she needs to acknowledge how badly she mis-judged this guy. So yea she has a big plate of crow to eat. 

I know the value of a great MIL. I would have kept mine in the divorce if it was possible.


----------



## Decorum

Hantei,
Having read your thread to this point, I would like to make a brief general observation about your situation and how you handeled it.

First I really admire the time and effort invested by the posters here, and the decisions you have taken as a betrayed partner and father. Much respect!

Like so many ww's, yours was hoping to control the timing of how and when all the steps in her pursuit of fantasy unfolded.

She could not have envisaged the download of TAM experience you were to receive nor your resolve.

You broke up her timeline. She was counting on your passivity, born of your devastation, and her idealistic imaginations for a controled dismantling of your marriage. Not no mention your white knighting should it become necessary. She was naive in much to say the least.

You also could not have envisaged the twists and turns that eventually unfolded.

Really you are in the position often longed for by betrayed partners. Her affair has crumbled, you are empowered, and taking time to make good decisions from a position of strength.

We wait to see if genuine remorsefulnes will take root, and if you will consent to reconcilation.

How differently this would look if you had been less decisive.

How much more damaged would you and your son have endured if you had dragged your feet, chased her, begged her, and jumped through self deprecating hoops.

It's an aweful situation, I can hardly believe you find yourself here, but the path you have taken has given you the inside track for the best possible outcome, whatever that may ultimately be.

I hope it would not be considered trite on my part to point out that this is a sign post to those who may follow hereafter. I am glad you chose so wisely.

I really wish you and your family well,
Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hantei

eric1 said:


> I'm admittedly blowing smoke up your a$$ but you're putting on a clinic on how to handle this both emotionally and tactically.
> 
> It probably doesn't feel that to you though huh


Thanks but you are correct once again- it doesn't. Please see me response to @Decorum later on.


----------



## Hantei

eric1 said:


> Why?


What? :smile2:


----------



## Hantei

Correct. It's not over till it's over. Falling victim to hope is what I'm REALLY afraid of. Not going to dig though. If she decides she wants to R she'll need to bring an undeniable proof it is over - which will be mandatory but not sufficient. 





ing said:


> There is absolutely no evidence that the affair is over, she can cry about her lost life, complain of the other guy not committing and say how stupid it was. This does not mean that it is over.
> 
> 
> ********** said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hantei, what has come out is breathtaking, even for TAM. MIL, WS & SOB all plotting behind your back is despicable, grrrrrrr!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks **********, I agree with grrrrrrr but as I posted the "plot is not that thick" after all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WS must NOT use MIL as an excuse AT ALL. Make it clear that the A is 100% hers. An A is an A is an A.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. To give credit where credit is due - she is not using the "evil MIL made me do it" as an excuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R has to be driven 100% by WS. Saying 'she has burnt all bridges and this is a battle you won't fight' is her way of getting you to say, "No, of course not darling, I want to R." and getting you to drive it. Don't fall for it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree and you and everyone please slap me out of it if you see me "falling for it".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You said you know from TAM what a remorseful spouse looks like.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I hope so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming she acts like a remorseful spouse, you need to decide whether to do R. Three things will be a challenge:
> - Will you ever be able to bring yourself to trust her 100% again. Living with someone you don't trust is hell, the uneasiness, the monitoring etc. . . I've been there.
> - Will you always wonder whether she would have gone with OM if he hadn't dumped her.
> - Can you deal with the physical part, the mind movies which hang around for a long time. You said the physical part is now only beginning to hit home. For many, it's the deal breaker.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> - no. Even if we reconcile successfully and live happily ever after and I will know somehow she never cheats again - won't trust her 100% again as I used to. She's already crossed the bridge from "Not Capable of Cheating" to "Capable of Cheating" and that is a one way bridge, she or anyone else can't "un-cross" it.
> - yes I will - likely. She's been bloody convincing in painting him as a "tru love of her life". Can a women ever be 2xtimes that convincing to ensure me that was all fog or whatever?
> - probably not. I'll get back to it when it fully hit home, but even now I don't like this mind movies and I know it will get worse soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you guys D, now that OM has chickened out, your son won't have to be under the same roof as him which is a damn fine thing. In a few years your son will be an adult
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is awesome. I didn't think about that. Huge thanks, it lit my day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is your son doing? Does he know what's going on? Maybe it's better to meet WS on neutral ground, away from your son, for discussions, a cafe etc, if you are not already doing so.
> My best to you and your son.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you, he’s is all right given the circumstances, now he is worried about her as well. I'm not having these discussions with STBXW in his presence, however we do it at home as there's too much of a teras and sobbing from her for a public place.
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> She is very good at blah, blah, blah..
> 
> If you really want to find out if the affair is over suggest you two have sex.
> Look at her face when you say it. I suspect it will be hurt and angry
> 
> It is the surest way to find out where her loyalties lie without having to listen to lies and deceptions designed to keep you in the loop
> 
> 
> I say that it has not ended. As a wise man once said to me..
> 
> DIG
Click to expand...


----------



## Hantei

Thanks for the kind words. You are absolutely correct about the value of TAM. I have all other options avaliable to me - family, friends, counseling. But I prefer to post (too much I think!) here. Because what I need is a) multiple viewpoints and b) people less concerned about my wellbeing as they perceive it - they can not separate me and my kid from "the Hantei family" if it makes sense.

Answering your, @eric1 and others calls that my story is some sort of showcase of "how this needs to be done". Please understand. So far I had no choice at all - I was simply following the only course of action avaliable to me. And it's been hard even knowing that I don't really have a choice. I miss her and can barely stand her tears. If the tries an attempt to R which will look more or less decent - you will see different me. And that's where I will really need you all - so please keep this pallet of 2x4s ready and don't bother with sanding them.





Decorum said:


> Hantei,
> Having read your thread to this point, I would like to make a brief general observation about your situation and how you handeled it.
> 
> First I really admire the time and effort invested by the posters here, and the decisions you have taken as a betrayed partner and father. Much respect!
> 
> Like so many ww's, yours was hoping to control the timing of how and when all the steps in her pursuit of fantasy unfolded.
> 
> She could not have envisaged the download of TAM experience you were to receive nor your resolve.
> 
> You broke up her timeline. She was counting on your passivity, born of your devastation, and her idealistic imaginations for a controled dismantling of your marriage. Not no mention your white knighting should it become necessary. She was naive in much to say the least.
> 
> You also could not have envisaged the twists and turns that eventually unfolded.
> 
> Really you are in the position often longed for by betrayed partners. Her affair has crumbled, you are empowered, and taking time to make good decisions from a position of strength.
> 
> We wait to see if genuine remorsefulnes will take root, and if you will consent to reconcilation.
> 
> How differently this would look if you had been less decisive.
> 
> How much more damaged would you and your son have endured if you had dragged your feet, chased her, begged her, and jumped through self deprecating hoops.
> 
> It's an aweful situation, I can hardly believe you find yourself here, but the path you have taken has given you the inside track for the best possible outcome, whatever that may ultimately be.
> 
> I hope it would not be considered trite on my part to point out that this is a sign post to those who may follow hereafter. I am glad you chose so wisely.
> 
> I really wish you and your family well,
> Take care.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> Thanks for the kind words. You are absolutely correct about the value of TAM. I have all other options avaliable to me - family, friends, counseling. But I prefer to post (too much I think!) here. Because what I need is a) multiple viewpoints and b) people less concerned about my wellbeing as they perceive it - they can not separate me and my kid from "the Hantei family" if it makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Answering your, @eric1 and others calls that my story is some sort of showcase of "how this needs to be done". Please understand. So far I had no choice at all - I was simply following the only course of action avaliable to me. And it's been hard even knowing that I don't really have a choice. I miss her and can barely stand her tears. If the tries an attempt to R which will look more or less decent - you will see different me. And that's where I will really need you all - so please keep this pallet of 2x4s ready and don't bother with sanding them.



With all due respect why wouldn't you be feeling crappy? If you were not you would not be human. 

Listen, you had a number of options to take so just drop the 'I only did what I had to' stuff. You've decided on a course of action which not only strategically sets you up to be in the best position but also one where you WILL get better. It doesn't seem like it now but atleast now you know that the choices you're making are the ones which are making it least likely that you'll be feeling like this in a year.

There is a reason that they call folks in your position 'victims', eh?

The worst course of action that you could have taken is inaction. AND YOU HAVE DONE THE OPPOSITE.

Right now my only suggestion for helping the mental games is to not worry about R or D. There is nothing that you can do about it, so just push towards D ASAP in a non-vindictive way. It is the only way that it ultimately fair to your child so you really don't have much of a choice. His world has been turned upside down and while it may seem he'd like repeated attempts on your part, what he really craves at this point is stability. He needs to find emotional terra firma.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei if I offended you with my comments about your MIL I apologize.


----------



## Hantei

bandit.45 said:


> Hantei if I offended you with my comments about your MIL I apologize.


You have not offended me at all. I don't give a flying f..k about MIL BTW.


----------



## Hantei

eric1 said:


> It doesn't seem like it now but atleast now you know that the choices you're making are the ones which are making it least likely that you'll be feeling like this in a year.


OK, point taken.



> There is a reason that they call folks in your position 'victims', eh?.


Never heard it, TBH. 



> There is nothing that you can do about it, so just push towards D ASAP in a non-vindictive way. It is the only way that it ultimately fair to your child so you really don't have much of a choice. .


You see, now you are agreeing with me.


.


> His world has been turned upside down and while it may seem he'd like repeated attempts on your part, what he really craves at this point is stability. He needs to find emotional terra firma.


Correct once again, he's a priority.


----------



## eric1

What I was trying to get at is that you are in shock. 

I can remember getting in a car accident once. I walked away with a small fracture but it was of the type that I could have died of a few small things were different. I can remember standing there just not knowing what was going on and having a vague desire to somehow wish that I could just not be here. The cop who was first on the scene was clearly trained and was short, concise and VERY firm with me. Borderline rude. But it kept me moving. 

An ambulance pulled up and I went to get treated and from that point I have almost no idea what happened. 

The next thing that I recall is sitting on my living room couch wondering what the **** happened and .... I don't know what else. It was just a jumble. Was I happy that I survived, surprised it happened, shocked that I could have died, amazing that I could be in an upside down car and two hours later be sitting on my couch? I don't know. It took me a day or two but life has a way of making you do things and once I started putting on foot in front of another things began to normalize. That constant 'fight or flight' instinct began to subside.

What I'm getting at is that your emotions are completely out of your control at this point. These actions are super important not only because they're strategically the right thing, but it's because actions establish normalcy. You are clearly living in a 'new normal' and, like entering a hot bath tub, it will first shock but your body will adjust to it. Your only other option, inaction, would be the equivalent of standing outside the hot tub in a clammy, cold hotel pool room where everyone is staring at you. 

I promise you that in four weeks that you will feel...different. If you keep doing the right things you will feel better. Tomorrow is the first day of a new month -- rip April out of your calendar and tape it to the wall. X out every single day. Say THIS WILL BE THE WORST DAMN MONTH OF MY LIFE. It will. But accept after it you will not accept anything other than an upward trajectory because at that point YOU ARE ONE HUNDRED PERCENT IN CONTROL OF THE PART OF YOUR LIFE THAT MATTERS.


----------



## Chaparral

You will note in other threads how badly some betrayed men handle this. Instead of maning up and demanding respect, they do the pick me its all my fault dance. More often than not actually. Many of he guys that stand up for themselves often save their marriages/families. 
Others doing the pick me dance, clean more, cook more, whine more, beg more, etc. and it rarely or ever works.

When divorce is inevitable, the strong guys generally come back to say how good they are doing. Good kids, new love and more happiness than they can believe. Check out bff's thread for instance. Doing everything wrong? Check out gridcom's thread. He followed what he thought was the easy road, seemingly logical, advice and took the blame. Its been a year long disaster of epic proportions including ludicrous advice.


----------



## Decorum

Hantei said:


> I have all other options avaliable to me - family, friends, counseling.


I may not have made myself clear Hantei, I am sorry.

By options I meant what @eric1 refered to. Your actions have resulted in options for you. Potentials to reconcile or move on, all while having the power in the relationship

Unfortunately the power dynamic in a relationship gets all cattywampus in the presence of infidelity, often with the spectacle of a WS looking on in abject repulsion as the BS does some pathetic variation of the pick me dance.

Different relationships may fare better under different power schemes IDK, but some healthy balance of mutual respect is all a relationship needs to thrive in most cases. The WS can seem to start out holding all the cards when their cheating comes to light.

So yeah maybe I did put it on a bit thick, but if so it was really for newbies who come here for help and need a clear example of what will promote their best interests.

You can hardly go wrong doing it the way you did, and any inaction on your part could have changed that, especially with all the unknowns a person in your position faces.

Hantei I'm in my 50's and dealing with some serious heart rythmn and function issues. Easter Sunday evening as I stood up from the fridge in my mothers kitchen (I was visiting her and the rest of my family in another state) I could tell I was going to black out. I quickly put the things in my hands on the counter, turned to an open area and tried to get on my hands and knees.

The next thing I remember was waking up on the floor in a very undignified position ha ha ha.

The best you can do is to position yourself for the least amount of damage and the greatest amount of control during a fall, especially in light of the many unknowns of doing the Pope kiss in an unconscious state.

So is every betrayed spouse who comes here, and acting on the general advice given here will put them in the best position, regardless.

Far and away people of action fare best in these situations.

Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

So... If she approaches you with a tearful "can we work it out" what are you going to do?

Can you tell the signs of a true vs false reconciliation attempt?

Here they are:

1. Total accountability for their decision to cheat and deceive (no blame shifting or gas lighting).
2. An honest and humble apology for their actions and consequent impact on you and your kid.
3. True expressions of remorse and regret. One form this should take is 100% transparency, answering all questions honestly and completely, accounting for their whereabouts from now on, no passwords on devices, etc.
4. Her willingness to immediately and forever go no contact with mr advanced. 
5. commit to working it out with you long-term -- because there are going to be likely YEARS of your pain ahead that she needs to be all in for. Mind movies, aftershocks, nightmares, sudden panick attacks, paranoia... All will become your normal. And the kicker is that she needs to commit to this with no resultant commitment from you. You can agree to try, but she's kinda gotta commit to doing it. And to exit her MIL forthwith from your marriage.

Then, and only then, the real reconciliation work would begin. Which would have to include looking at your marriage holistically.

Because the only think I think is probably worse than an affair like this would be a false reconciliation.

But, I gotta tell you... I don't think she's even going to get to #1 on that list.

Better read this while you're at it.

Presto, Change-o, DARVO: Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> So... If she approaches you with a tearful "can we work it out" what are you going to do?
> 
> Can you tell the signs of a true vs false reconciliation attempt?
> 
> Here they are:
> 
> 1. Total accountability for their decision to cheat and deceive (no blame shifting or gas lighting).
> 2. An honest and humble apology for their actions and consequent impact on you and your kid.
> 3. True expressions of remorse and regret. One form this should take is 100% transparency, answering all questions honestly and completely, accounting for their whereabouts from now on, no passwords on devices, etc.
> 4. Her willingness to immediately and forever go no contact with mr advanced.
> 5. commit to working it out with you long-term -- because there are going to be likely YEARS of your pain ahead that she needs to be all in for. Mind movies, aftershocks, nightmares, sudden panick attacks, paranoia... All will become your normal. And the kicker is that she needs to commit to this with no resultant commitment from you. You can agree to try, but she's kinda gotta commit to doing it. And to exit her MIL forthwith from your marriage.
> 
> Then, and only then, the real reconciliation work would begin. Which would have to include looking at your marriage holistically.
> 
> Because the only think I think is probably worse than an affair like this would be a false reconciliation.
> 
> But, I gotta tell you... I don't think she's even going to get to #1 on that list.
> 
> Better read this while you're at it.
> 
> Presto, Change-o, DARVO: Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender



:iagree: 100%

And I would add that she would need to be the main instigator and motivator of her own changes. She should be the one setting up her counseling, apologizing to family and friends for her bad behavior, helping you heal...

If you have to ask her to do these things then she is not being authentic or serious about healing the marriage.


----------



## 86857

Hang in there Hantei. 

You might not think it but you're are doing a great job and setting yourself up for the best outcome for yourself, a textbook version of what a BS should do. Wish I had your resolve during my own horrible scenario. 

BTW, post as much as you want. You have many TAMMER friends barracking for you.

I just had a thought. It's a bit "out there" but I'll run it past you and the other posters anyway. 

I always think it's too easy if BS agrees to R and WS continues living in the family home, or moves right back in if BS has already kicked them out, particularly when WS asks for R as soon as they've been dumped by the AP. Feeling like Plan B is one of the major hurdles for BS. 

In these cases there're aren't enough consequences for WS imo. And it can make BS feel like a bit of a walkover, as if they don't have enough emotions to deal with already.

It probably wouldn't be possible if you had young children but your boy is a teenager. And in your case WS has already moved out which makes it easier than kicking her out now if she was still there. 

So here goes. What about saying you will try R but you don't want her to move in right now because you want to approach it very slowly. Say you would like to go back to a 'dating' type situation and meet her for dinner twice/three times a week. That gives you time to clarify your feelings about WS. It will also give you a taste of R and the emotions you will feel when you start R cos it's ain't pretty. You will see her some but she won't be there all the time which will give you some space. As far as sleeping together during this time, I just don't know. When I read about hysterical bonding on TAM, I tend to think that it muddies things rather than helping. It's for each BS to decide. 

Most importantly, it would give you a chance to see how she approaches R, how remorseful she is and it would prove her resolve to R if she agreed to it. Also I wouldn't give her a timeline e.g. 'we'll try it for 3 months'. Leave it open-ended so she doesn't know when/if she'll move back in or whether you will take her back and would make the test even harder. It would also give her a taste of the other side and life without you which might her fully wake up about this and deliver the remorse you need. You could string it out a bit too, i.e. don't take her back too quickly even if you decide to.

It will also give her a chance to go back to OM, beg and plead with him etc. Yep! If she does, even one phone call or text, then I'd just walk away. You can still see her phonebills, yes? There might be other ways you can snoop on her when she's not with you also. 

As far as nuts and bolts, in the interim, you can pay her the monthly sum you were going to. If you weren't going to pay her a monthly sum, then you can give her a loan which would be taken out of her share if you end up divorcing. With the parenting plan, you can arrange not to be at your house when she spends time with your son or he can go to see her wherever she is. She can stay with her parents if they allow it (their reaction is weird btw) or she can stay at a motel, get a furnished studio e.g. AirBNB etc. 

Whatever it might cost financially, personally I think it would be worth every penny. 

So make R as tough as you can on WS, to test whether she's really genuine and can be a truly remorseful WS, especially since AP dumped her & she came running back. So often it seems it's too easy for them given what they've inflicted on the children while having practically reduced BS to a pile of rubble by putting BS through the hell of betrayal. 

Just an idea. I'd have tried it if I thought of it during my R which turned out to be a false R. . . which is probably why I'm saying be as tough as all hell.  You are now in the driver's seat because you have held your resolve, resisted the temptation to call her despite missing her and feeling sorry/concerned for her etc. Well done for that cos it ain't easy. I think what I'm talking about is called 'tough love'. 

Posters, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this too.


----------



## Marduk

I would only agree to the "dating" scenario after an affair of this magnitude if I was free to date other people and she wasn't.

I wouldn't actually do that, I would just say that. Why?

This wasn't a one night stand. This wasn't a mistake. This was intentional.

If she agreed to that, and was willing to live through what that feels like... Maybe she was honestly wanting to reconcile.

My guess is she'd be very indignant about that instead.


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> I would only agree to the "dating" scenario after an affair of this magnitude if I was free to date other people and she wasn't.
> 
> I wouldn't actually do that, I would just say that. Why?
> 
> This wasn't a one night stand. This wasn't a mistake. This was intentional.
> 
> If she agreed to that, and was willing to live through what that feels like... Maybe she was honestly wanting to reconcile.
> 
> My guess is she'd be very indignant about that instead.


Yep. 

Divorce first. Then, if Hantei feels like he can stomach it, allow her to start dating him again. She will have to compete with other women to get her old job back. I don't think her resume will help her. 

But the divorce would be the litmus test. I predict she would say "Fvck this. It's not worth the effort", and she will solve his problem for him and bail.


----------



## Marc878

bandit.45 said:


> Yep.
> 
> Divorce first. Then, if Hantei feels like he can stomach it, allow her to start dating him again. She will have to compete with other women to get her old job back. I don't think her resume will help her.
> 
> But the divorce would be the litmus test. I predict she would say "Fvck this. It's not worth the effort", and she will solve his problem for him and bail.


The old marriage ended anyway. Under these circumstances I'd want to date awhile/see others before considering reconciliation.


----------



## JohnA

The problem with number 1 is that it is almost impossible to separate the adultery from the honest issues in the marriage. Hantei wether you realize it or not you have issues with your wife. I don't mean her issues with you, I mean your issues with her. Without realizeing it you accept a lot of issues because that's what you do during a marriage. 

Again the mantra "a million valid reasons to move on, none for adultery". 

Number five on Marduk is huge. I think that is why many couples despite an honest desire to reconcile fail. 

Bottom line, screw hotter and younger, rather strive to be like this guy another poster wrote about with or without your WW 

Why improve yourself *

As a side note I always find it very interesting when a person is hammering their ex mate so hard for cheating and refuses to accept any responsibility for anything that might have been wrong in the marriage.

My husband's exwife cheated on him and left him for the OM. She was pregnant by OM before the divorce was final. When I met him he admitted he knew he'd done things in the marriage which left it vulnerable to an affair.*

He owned his behavior.*

He didn't condone her affair but he accepted responsibility for his part in the demise of their marriage. That was something I had to respect. He worked on himself, in therapy, while they were separated and divorcing. When she wouldn't go to MC, he went alone, and I have reaped the benefit from that counseling. *


----------



## JohnA

It was the last sentence that actually inspired me "I am repeating the rewards" Your thoughts Hantei?


----------



## TX-SC

FWIW, I agree with the others that you should proceed with the divorce. You can always get back together and perhaps even remarry. But, I bet once you meet someone new you won't want to see your ex again.


----------



## JohnA

As to you dating her not, not a good idea. Accept that reconciliation is NEVER FAIR to the BS. But you are all in or not and two wrongs do not make a right. So reconciliation sucks for the BS. It truly is a ****ing insane leap of faith based on love. At least when you got married you had a naive belief she wouldn't comment adultery. Not this time around. 

In your case Hantei I think if you do it will not be out of fear, and that is the only way a reconciliation can succeed. (stats say only 15% of marriages survive a wife's infidelity) So if you do decide to attempt reconciliation you are insane for doing so, but you could be one of those 15%.


Shoot to be that guy the women poster I pasted on your thread.


----------



## alte Dame

To respond to @**********'s suggestion, I think it is one possibility in this bridge period between Dday and the feeling of finality that a real decision brings with it.

It's this bridge period that I think is dangerous and difficult, H.

As @Decorum mentioned, you are in shock.

Just as cheaters follow a script, so do the betrayeds. After Dday, a BS's instincts are to get things back to the way they were, when life was sane and safer. They are in battle mode and aren't thinking at the time of the scorched earth that is left when the battle is over.

What I tend to see is buyer's remorse on the part of the BS when reconciliation is attempted. Once the shock has worn off to a degree and the cheater is back in the fold, so to speak, the BS begins to realize what he/she has bought, which is a cheating liar for whom the BS has lost respect. With a truly remorseful WS, this effect can improve, but that typically takes years.

So, I think you should arm yourself for the next wave. You shouldn't make any serious decision to R until you have had more time to recover from the shock of the betrayal. Please remember that you are not only feeling betrayed, you are discovering a side of your WW that you didn't know and don't particularly like or respect. This is who she is and that knowledge does not just disappear


----------



## Marduk

JohnA said:


> The problem with number 1 is that it is almost impossible to separate the adultery from the honest issues in the marriage. Hantei wether you realize it or not you have issues with your wife. I don't mean her issues with you, I mean your issues with her. Without realizeing it you accept a lot of issues because that's what you do during a marriage.


What I mean by that is accountability for the decision to seek out the affair and then have it.

The causes and conditions for leading her to want it, those he's part of. But not the decision to do it.

She needs to 100% own that decision and take accounatibility for it. Because that is solely hers. And if you've ever been cheated on, that usually either doesn't come, or doesn't stick. Especially once you look into the reasons for her being unhappy in the marriage.

But I think it needs to be there to even have a shot at reconciliation. And while I would for sure look at my own behaviour either way... I sure wouldn't do it with her without her being accountible for her decision.

As my MC said -- "you have to own your ****, and she has to own her ****. You've both got ****. The key to getting at your **** is if she first owns her decision to start talking to this guy, breaking promises, and lying to you about it. That's her ****. Otherwise, her **** just gets swept under the carpet, and you're left holding your ****. But if she does that you better be willing to deal with your ****."

Or words to that effect. She was right.


----------



## Decorum

alte Dame said:


> So, I think you should arm yourself for the next wave. You shouldn't make any serious decision to R until you have had more time to recover from the shock of the betrayal. Please remember that you are not only feeling betrayed, you are discovering a side of your WW that you didn't know and don't particularly like or respect. This is who she is and that knowledge does not just disappear



Hantei, 

You have some of the most reliable and experiences posters on TAM helping you.
There is little I can actually add but I would just like to agree here.

Your WW's waywardness, (boredom, unhappiness, selfishness?) is real.

It varies from WW to WW but I think the danger of re-occurrence with yours in the future is real.

I still feel, and this is by my observation from quite a distance away, but I still feel like given the chance she would still pursue the OM, or if something changes in his life and he reaches out to her she will not be able to stop herself.

Please dont dismiss this too quickly, its counterintuitive, but some WS do run back to the AP given a chance, even after being callously dumped. They say they just cant help themselves, in fact its common even in beginning reconciliations for them to fall off the wagon at least once.

It is also a common experience for a persons love to begin to receed as their respect for the WS recedes, little by little each day.

That is why it is soooo important for the WS to be out in front and doing the heavy lifting in reconciliation.

You cant build a reconciliation on "fear of loss" alone, because as the value of what you fear losing diminishes, so will your interest in keeping it.

You end up feeling like you chose poorly in your investment of time and emotional energy, and have rather built yourself a prison you feel traped in.

So yes, proceed with the divorce here and keep your options open. Just my opinion.

I wish you well, take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bankshot1993

I see a lot of people talking about how the R will have to look and what she will have to do. I haven't yet seen any indication from H that he has any interest in R.

The focus for now should be to continue with D until she comes to him with a proper plan for R and what she will do to earn a second chance.

H, can you clarify for me as I seem to have forgotten. I've read the thread from beginning to end focusing mainly on your posts. I've been under the impression that this was a one time thing but other posts have me thinking that this understanding is wrong. have you found out how many times/how long it has been going on?


----------



## Marduk

bankshot1993 said:


> I see a lot of people talking about how the R will have to look and what she will have to do. I haven't yet seen any indication from H that he has any interest in R.
> 
> The focus for now should be to continue with D until she comes to him with a proper plan for R and what she will do to earn a second chance.
> 
> H, can you clarify for me as I seem to have forgotten. I've read the thread from beginning to end focusing mainly on your posts. I've been under the impression that this was a one time thing but other posts have me thinking that this understanding is wrong. have you found out how many times/how long it has been going on?


I just think odds of her attempting some kind of reconciliation is high given she just went from having the attention, support, and sex from two men to zero men in the span of a few days.

She's gotta be feeling pretty low after feeling pretty high.


----------



## Marc878

alte Dame said:


> To respond to @**********'s suggestion, I think it is one possibility in this bridge period between Dday and the feeling of finality that a real decision brings with it.
> 
> It's this bridge period that I think is dangerous and difficult, H.
> 
> As @Decorum mentioned, you are in shock.
> 
> Just as cheaters follow a script, so do the betrayeds. After Dday, a BS's instincts are to get things back to the way they were, when life was sane and safer. They are in battle mode and aren't thinking at the time of the scorched earth that is left when the battle is over.
> 
> What I tend to see is buyer's remorse on the part of the BS when reconciliation is attempted. Once the shock has worn off to a degree and the cheater is back in the fold, so to speak, the BS begins to realize what he/she has bought, which is a cheating liar for whom the BS has lost respect. With a truly remorseful WS, this effect can improve, but that typically takes years.
> 
> So, I think you should arm yourself for the next wave. You shouldn't make any serious decision to R until you have had more time to recover from the shock of the betrayal. Please remember that you are not only feeling betrayed, you are discovering a side of your WW that you didn't know and don't particularly like or respect. This is who she is and that knowledge does not just disappear


Excellent advice. Reconciliation always comes up. I suspect you'll get the call/talk in a week or two. It's on your timeline. You'd be wise to not jump in until you've thought it through. If you don't it'll be on her terms so to speak.


----------



## bandit.45




----------



## bankshot1993

marduk said:


> I just think odds of her attempting some kind of reconciliation is high given she just went from having the attention, support, and sex from two men to zero men in the span of a few days.
> 
> She's gotta be feeling pretty low after feeling pretty high.


I hope so @marduke, I hope she is feeling pain like she has never felt before because she is causing pain like never before to people that don't deserve it.

I don't say this out of some masochistic agenda I say it because if (huge if), If there ever is a decision to R, the more painful and difficult this experience is for her the less likely she will be to repeat it.

I'm an old softy and I reflect on this situation through my eyes as they would reflect my life and my experience so deep down inside I'm hoping that H's wife comes to her senses and returns to H with a clearer head and a full appreciation of what she had and could possibly have again if she is willing to do the work. I hope for a happy ending for H, and that takes into account that he had twenty years of happiness with this woman. 

People make mistakes, show bad judgement, get caught up in Mid Life Crisis and numerous other things that temporarily take them away from who they really are. I know that betrayal is a heinous and egregious act and an attack against a marriage but I struggle with throwing away twenty years of happy times for a brief moment of insanity.

I'm in Reconciliations corner but it has to be with an acceptance of the wrong doing and it needs to be the most painful lesson of her life, one that she never wants to repeat again.


----------



## Hantei

I agree. Since I seem to have bern painted out as some sort of machine, effective but emotionless - that is what I'll be trying to be.

I wish - bloody hard if you ask me, when I see her crying curled on my son's bed. Guess that's why SOB seems not to be dating her - she looks... old and mess.




eric1 said:


> What I was trying to get at is that you are in shock.
> 
> I can remember getting in a car accident once. I walked away with a small fracture but it was of the type that I could have died of a few small things were different. I can remember standing there just not knowing what was going on and having a vague desire to somehow wish that I could just not be here. The cop who was first on the scene was clearly trained and was short, concise and VERY firm with me. Borderline rude. But it kept me moving.
> 
> An ambulance pulled up and I went to get treated and from that point I have almost no idea what happened.
> 
> The next thing that I recall is sitting on my living room couch wondering what the **** happened and .... I don't know what else. It was just a jumble. Was I happy that I survived, surprised it happened, shocked that I could have died, amazing that I could be in an upside down car and two hours later be sitting on my couch? I don't know. It took me a day or two but life has a way of making you do things and once I started putting on foot in front of another things began to normalize. That constant 'fight or flight' instinct began to subside.
> 
> What I'm getting at is that your emotions are completely out of your control at this point. These actions are super important not only because they're strategically the right thing, but it's because actions establish normalcy. You are clearly living in a 'new normal' and, like entering a hot bath tub, it will first shock but your body will adjust to it. Your only other option, inaction, would be the equivalent of standing outside the hot tub in a clammy, cold hotel pool room where everyone is staring at you.
> 
> I promise you that in four weeks that you will feel...different. If you keep doing the right things you will feel better. Tomorrow is the first day of a new month -- rip April out of your calendar and tape it to the wall. X out every single day. Say THIS WILL BE THE WORST DAMN MONTH OF MY LIFE. It will. But accept after it you will not accept anything other than an upward trajectory because at that point YOU ARE ONE HUNDRED PERCENT IN CONTROL OF THE PART OF YOUR LIFE THAT MATTERS.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei, here is what I think you should do...

Pick a weekend, a Friday night, and ask some mates to go hang out with you at a pub or something. 

Before that, take your credit card and go to a nice department store and ask a sales woman...make sure it is woman...or better yet a young woman...and ask her to pick you out some really nice dressy-but-casual, fashionable clothes. Ask her to dress you the way she would dress her man. Spend some money on really nice slacks, a nice shirt, new belt, some nice cologne and maybe hit the shoe store for some kick-ass leather shoes. Spend a grand. Treat yourself to some nice threads. 

Don't let your wife see these. 

Then that Friday, get a nice stylish haircut on the way home, a kind of haircut you would not normally get. Then that evening, shower, shave, put on your new clothes, and walk in to where your wife is... looking sharp...

Tell her that she is taking care of your son tonight. Don't ask her...tell her. Tonight you are going out. 

When she sees the new you, spiffed up and looking like a spunk, the wheels in her head are going to start spinning five hundred RPM. Then nonchalantly walk out the door and go hang with your buddies. She will be lighting your cell phone up. Ignore her. Then after the pub closes, go find yourself an all night diner. Drink coffee and read a book or play on your iPad until sunrise, then amble in the next morning around 7:30 a.m. with a big smile on your face. 

She will confront you and demand to know where you were. Just walk right by her into your room and go to bed. You will not have cheated on her, but she doesn't know that.

It will drive her bananas.


----------



## Hantei

JohnA said:


> It was the last sentence that actually inspired me "I am repeating the rewards" Your thoughts Hantei?


Sorry, not sure I understand you here.


----------



## Hantei

@Chaparral - thanks a lot. Gives me hope. Couldn't find gridcom's thread - a link perhaps?
@Decorum - thanks, I get it (I hope). Best of luck with your health. 
@marduk - I don't know TBH. I may attempt to address it later when responding to other posters, the the meantime the signs check looks like (ATM at 
least):

1. I'll give her that - at least in my interpretation. She never blamed me and keeps repeating this is all on her. She claimed that when delivering be the ILYBNILWY speech - she was not criticizing the emotional part of me, just stating that the emotional connection with SOB was stronger. And now she wants to take even that back. At the same time AFAIK she didn't go to family and friends saying either "I cheated on H, my fault" or "H is cold blooded bastard, we are done". The story was "we were moving on". Point goes to STBWX I assume.
2. A lot of apologies for not handling this is in a "right way" when in love with SOB. Admission that no apology can be adequate or helpful now. No point.
3. Some remorse and a lot of regret. No action (in form of being proactive and offer) for the rest. Point goes to divorce, she seems to be moving on nevertheless.
4. They seem to broke up - again she hates him but not being proactive in showing this to me (NC, etc.) Actually looks like he dumped her. Point goes to divorce, she seems to be moving on nevertheless.
5. As above (3 and 4). No commitment. Point goes to divorce.

ATM divorce wins 3-1. I may re-assess the situation if the above changes - it is possible she's to worn and beaten down and doesn't have stamina to try to swim upstream as it has been suggested before, but for now I'll keep doing what I've been doing. I'm tempted to extend a helping hand... but not now, I've decided she needs to make the 1st move at the very least. As @bandit.45 wrote - I have nothing to add or comment on his post, all true and I will follow.
There is a danger that by being passive in terms of R I may be denying us an R but under the circumstances the chances of false R (or straight "thanks but no thanks" response) are far greater - and I can't afford 1 step forward 2 steps back situation. 
When it comes to her dating me and competing for me in the future - don't think that is going to happen. Don't think she's that much into me these days. She's smart, good looking (or will be good looking again soon), fit, educated and fun, has a good job (not such a great remuneration but her parents will help) - she will have no problems picking up another guy. Way easier than "fighting for me" and dealing with all the issues of R especially with no benefit of marriage and an unknown outcome.


----------



## Hantei

bankshot1993 said:


> I see a lot of people talking about how the R will have to look and what she will have to do. I haven't yet seen any indication from H that he has any interest in R.
> 
> The focus for now should be to continue with D until she comes to him with a proper plan for R and what she will do to earn a second chance.
> 
> H, can you clarify for me as I seem to have forgotten. I've read the thread from beginning to end focusing mainly on your posts. I've been under the impression that this was a one time thing but other posts have me thinking that this understanding is wrong. have you found out how many times/how long it has been going on?



Agree that the R plan must come from her. As for how many times, where and all - I have no info or timeline. Know they hooked up after Christmas and "did that" more than once. That's all I feel I need to know, that was not ONS, she wanted him. If R ever happens she'll have to give me these details. 

P.S. I think she' shocked I'm not dying to know.


----------



## Hantei

********** said:


> Hang in there Hantei.
> 
> You might not think it but you're are doing a great job and setting yourself up for the best outcome for yourself, a textbook version of what a BS should do. Wish I had your resolve during my own horrible scenario.
> BTW, post as much as you want. You have many TAMMER friends barracking for you.


Thanks **********, thanks a lot.



> I always think it's too easy if BS agrees to R and WS continues living in the family home, or moves right back in if BS has already kicked them out, particularly when WS asks for R as soon as they've been dumped by the AP. Feeling like Plan B is one of the major hurdles for BS.
> 
> In these cases there're aren't enough consequences for WS imo. And it can make BS feel like a bit of a walkover, as if they don't have enough emotions to deal with already.
> 
> It probably wouldn't be possible if you had young children but your boy is a teenager. And in your case WS has already moved out which makes it easier than kicking her out now if she was still there.


I think it os great. I hope with your and other psters help I'll be able to articulate it for myself eventually - I'm that sort of person who is able to do what needs to be done when there is a structured approach and plan.

So - with apologies for another long response: 

I'm already a plan B. There is no doubt about it - she was in love with SOB and he (Plan A) dumped her. So if she does come back - big if - I'll be the plan B no matter what. I'm not sure if a women (sorry I'm loking at it from my point of view) can honestly do "love H -> love SOB -> love H". And if she does - is there any way to proove it? Without me waiting each second as @Decorum put it in #572 - that SOB pings her and she goes back because she is sooooooo in love?

The other thing is - consequences. Let's say she wants R, manages to convince my I'm not plan B anymore, does all the checklist. Sorry, she already gave away something that was so unique to me/us and can not be restored or reversed. Like a car that left the dealership. So now she's stepped out of the marriage, enjoyed the other bloke and just walked back in? Same house, same husband, same family? I get it, she may be working like hell for R.. so will I. I understand if I was abusive and lasy, she wasn't fit and bad cook. Now we are in R, I'm loving and work non-stop, she is in model shape and cooks like a chef. The marriage is shattered but balanced. But in my case - what will she bring to the table apart from being a good wife as she used to be for all these years? Does she get a coke and get the melted ice?




> So here goes. What about saying you will try R but you don't want her to move in right now because you want to approach it very slowly. Say you would like to go back to a 'dating' type situation and meet her for dinner twice/three times a week. That gives you time to clarify your feelings about WS. It will also give you a taste of R and the emotions you will feel when you start R cos it's ain't pretty. You will see her some but she won't be there all the time which will give you some space.


As I mentioned before she was/is giving me vibes she wants to move back. Move back not work on the marriage that is. It's just I'm not hrere yet. Same as for daiting her. - she needs to make the 1st move.




> As far as sleeping together during this time, I just don't know. When I read about hysterical bonding on TAM, I tend to think that it muddies things rather than helping. It's for each BS to decide.


Without getting too graphical, let's just say that I'm not interested nor attracted ATM. 




> It will also give her a chance to go back to OM, beg and plead with him etc. Yep! If she does, even one phone call or text, then I'd just walk away. You can still see her phonebills, yes? There might be other ways you can snoop on her when she's not with you also.


Point taken, I'm still snooping (despite my yesterday's urge to tell her to change her passwords, she's not that tech savy).




> She can stay with her parents if they allow it (their reaction is weird btw)


Could you please alaborate? 



> Whatever it might cost financially, personally I think it would be worth every penny.


Totally.




> So make R as tough as you can on WS, to test whether she's really genuine and can be a truly remorseful WS, especially since AP dumped her & she came running back. So often it seems it's too easy for them given what they've inflicted on the children while having practically reduced BS to a pile of rubble by putting BS through the hell of betrayal.


We are absolutely on the same page here. Being dumped and too easy.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Hanteu, 

I do not view you as cold and machine like. I see you as a guy that despite the pain, gets done what can be done and then works on what cannot be done now. In short an adult not a child. If that comment is directed to you shoot it down. Acknowledge the grief and loss but don't provide details and be clear you are not looking for a pity partly.

What I meant about the line that inspired me. In short I grew avd fixed bad habits from my breakup with a college fiancé. I owed my faults and my wife benefited. I grew and own my faults in my marriage, women I date benefit. That's all Marduck post number 1 in some ways is the hardest because addressing them almost seems like you are justifying the adultery. It's not, you change for you to build a better life for yourself. That is the only reason to change.


----------



## Hantei

A number of vary valid points, thank you.

You are right , quoting this oil CIO I want my life back. But I will never have it back - proverbial river one can't enter twice - and will find out I'm in R with someone else not her former self.

So no decision for now.

Is this a proper interpretation? 





alte Dame said:


> To respond to @**********'s suggestion, I think it is one possibility in this bridge period between Dday and the feeling of finality that a real decision brings with it.
> 
> It's this bridge period that I think is dangerous and difficult, H.
> 
> As @Decorum mentioned, you are in shock.
> 
> Just as cheaters follow a script, so do the betrayeds. After Dday, a BS's instincts are to get things back to the way they were, when life was sane and safer. They are in battle mode and aren't thinking at the time of the scorched earth that is left when the battle is over.
> 
> What I tend to see is buyer's remorse on the part of the BS when reconciliation is attempted. Once the shock has worn off to a degree and the cheater is back in the fold, so to speak, the BS begins to realize what he/she has bought, which is a cheating liar for whom the BS has lost respect. With a truly remorseful WS, this effect can improve, but that typically takes years.
> 
> So, I think you should arm yourself for the next wave. You shouldn't make any serious decision to R until you have had more time to recover from the shock of the betrayal. Please remember that you are not only feeling betrayed, you are discovering a side of your WW that you didn't know and don't particularly like or respect. This is who she is and that knowledge does not just disappear


----------



## farsidejunky

Again (for the 3rd time?), like a boss.

You have incredible clarity in your situation, and about your STBX.

I am parroting other posters, but I believe divorce must happen whether she wants reconciliation or not.

If she does come begging for R, tell her you will see after the divorce is final and she gets into IC.

Now, onto you. 

Why are you still monitoring her? 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## 86857

Hantei & all, 

I probably should have pre-empted my post re R with, 
"IF WS shows VERY VERY convincingly that she wants R, 100% honesty, 100% transparency etc etc AND. . . (big) IF you, Hantei decide to give it a shot, then make it as tough as possible on her."

I wasn't advocating R. In fact, I'm anti-R 99 times out of 100. 

If I can just thread-jack for a moment. . . there was a reason I talked about 'potential' R. If a BS goes against the general consensus they can feel discouraged about continuing to post. I was one such BS. I went against the consensus & then just stopped posting as I felt embarrassed. You see it often on here, a thread just 'disappears'. 

In my case, posters were right. The consensus usually is. There was an important aspect I didn't reveal, too private even for a public forum I thought. Looking back now, I should have revealed that detail & even if I didn't, I should have continued to post. I now know that if I had kept posting, I wouldn't have ended up in false R as long as I did. 

No matter what Hantei, keep posting.

PS For the record, having said the above, I'll now say this. 
The whole thing of WS lying on your son's bed, sobbing etc doesn't impress me much. It says self-interest, poor me etc and is ironic. YOU are the one who would have good cause to be lying on your son's bed sobbing. If that is what R looks like, it's not looking good. You end up comforting her? I don't think so. Sorry if I'm being harsh here.


----------



## alte Dame

HTML:







Hantei said:


> A number of vary valid points, thank you.
> 
> You are right , quoting this oil CIO I want my life back. But I will never have it back - proverbial river one can't enter twice - and will find out I'm in R with someone else not her former self.
> 
> So no decision for now.
> 
> Is this a proper interpretation?


That's what I think - no decision for now. The best you can do, in my opinion, is try to stack the deck in your favor and see how things develop. You already appear to be doing a very good job of that in a very tough situation.

You can't completely control the outcome. You can only try your best to influence it so that you preserve yourself. For me, pride is an important element and I believe that the BS's who beg and do the pick-me dance and jump to R are often the ones who have the deepest regrets.

Better to let the dust settle and as it does, you keep getting your ducks in line for your new life as a single man. Follow the 180 to detach and continue to feel the strength that allows you.

(And fwiw, I don't think she was in love with Mr. Enigma. I think she was in 'lurve' with him. The difference is a bunch of rainbows and unicorns.)


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> I spent a lot of time on this forum in 2014 - only reading and not posting. Someone close to me was going through a rough patch in his marriage. Google and ye shall find. I have been reading these stories in horror but admittedly also having that "It'll never happen to me" feeling.


You seem to be ahead of the game or perhaps ahead of where most BS are at this time.

From your previous post this is why.


----------



## Hantei

farsidejunky said:


> Now, onto you.
> 
> Why are you still monitoring her?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Can't stop. I think I'd like to see whatever the next message between then is going to be: expression if undying live or "I want to forget you ever existed". Or just anything.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> Can't stop. I think I'd like to see whatever the next message between then is going to be: expression if undying live or "I want to forget you ever existed". Or just anything.


Don't do it. Don't feed the beast.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> Can't stop. I think I'd like to see whatever the next message between then is going to be: expression if undying live or "I want to forget you ever existed". Or just anything.


Thank you for you honesty.

Now knock that s*** off.

You know better.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

That is the way I have interpreted your post anyway (big if).
I will leave that part of your post where you talk about your experience almost un commented - just saying I'm sorry for your grief and thank you for finding time to help me?

As for your last paragraph - that is exactly what I needed. Ashamed to say I did comfort her. .. a bit... not physically. .. just said she'll be alright. No hugs from me ATM.




********** said:


> Hantei & all,
> 
> I probably should have pre-empted my post re R with,
> "IF WS shows VERY VERY convincingly that she wants R, 100% honesty, 100% transparency etc etc AND. . . (big) IF you, Hantei decide to give it a shot, then make it as tough as possible on her."
> 
> I wasn't advocating R. In fact, I'm anti-R 99 times out of 100.
> 
> If I can just thread-jack for a moment. . . there was a reason I talked about 'potential' R. If a BS goes against the general consensus they can feel discouraged about continuing to post. I was one such BS. I went against the consensus & then just stopped posting as I felt embarrassed. You see it often on here, a thread just 'disappears'.
> 
> In my case, posters were right. The consensus usually is. There was an important aspect I didn't reveal, too private even for a public forum I thought. Looking back now, I should have revealed that detail & even if I didn't, I should have continued to post. I now know that if I had kept posting, I wouldn't have ended up in false R as long as I did.
> 
> No matter what Hantei, keep posting.
> 
> PS For the record, having said the above, I'll now say this.
> The whole thing of WS lying on your son's bed, sobbing etc doesn't impress me much. It says self-interest, poor me etc and is ironic. YOU are the one who would have good cause to be lying on your son's bed sobbing. If that is what R looks like, it's not looking good. You end up comforting her? I don't think so. Sorry if I'm being harsh here.


----------



## Hantei

Will do. TBH the last paragraph made a positive impact on me (irrespective from not going into R).





alte Dame said:


> HTML:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I think - no decision for now. The best you can do, in my opinion, is try to stack the deck in your favor and see how things develop. You already appear to be doing a very good job of that in a very tough situation.
> 
> You can't completely control the outcome. You can only try your best to influence it so that you preserve yourself. For me, pride is an important element and I believe that the BS's who beg and do the pick-me dance and jump to R are often the ones who have the deepest regrets.
> 
> Better to let the dust settle and as it does, you keep getting your ducks in line for your new life as a single man. Follow the 180 to detach and continue to feel the strength that allows you.
> 
> (And fwiw, I don't think she was in love with Mr. Enigma. I think she was in 'lurve' with him. The difference is a bunch of rainbows and unicorns.)


----------



## TX-SC

Hantei said:


> Can't stop. I think I'd like to see whatever the next message between then is going to be: expression if undying live or "I want to forget you ever existed". Or just anything.


I'd probably feel the same. Just be careful of making this an addiction. Also, since you are formally separated from her, don't do something stupid and get busted for invasion of her privacy. You already know the story. You also should have an idea as to how it will likely end. I think you would be well suited to try and just stop thinking about her at all. You need to be thinking only of you and your son right now. What she and POS do is their business and certainly below you.


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> When it comes to her dating me and competing for me in the future - don't think that is going to happen. *Don't think she's that much into me these days.* She's smart, good looking (or will be good looking again soon), fit, educated and fun, has a good job (not such a great remuneration but her parents will help) - she will have no problems picking up another guy. Way easier than "fighting for me" and dealing with all the issues of R especially with no benefit of marriage and an unknown outcome.


*Do not underestimate yourself*

You also hit the reason the affair happened and the reason you know that you will Divorce her.

*She is just not that into you *



Your wife of all those years, who was at the top of the tree. Loyal, honest. Had a good husband, a good job, is educated and all this with a child! 
The view of her from outside is that of Superwoman. 

Unfortunately she did not see you as Superman. Just a boring guy who worked all the time and was short on fun.. So, she fired you.

*Social demotion*
Your wife is now at the very bottom of the dating pool for your age group, you are somewhere near the top, unless you are truly hideous.
You know when you see those men in their fifties with younger hotter girlfriends, we tend to assume he is a sugar daddy. That is not the case. Men routinely date women 10 or 15 years younger. 

The reason I tell you this is because you need to see that she no longer holds all the cards in the world of dating. She is very quickly finding out that guys who are in the dating pool in their 40's and 50's are:

Players with no wish ( or ability) to commit
Failed cheaters who left their families
Men who were cheated on and hit the stop button
Men who are widowed
Very unattractive people of all types. abusive, etc

******* BigData


*Dating catnip.. (my experience) 
*
Single Dad with older child
A job or better yet a mysterious ( legal) income
Giving Zero Fcks
She knows that she will never will be on that pedestal again. That is what she has ruined and that is why she is crying.

*This is why I talk about sex..
*Unless she can see you as someone _she desires _then I doubt you will be able to take her back. I know that for me that was the deal breaker. 

Why would you want to be with someone who was just not that into you?


----------



## ing

Hantei said:


> Can't stop. I think I'd like to see whatever the next message between then is going to be: expression if undying live or "I want to forget you ever existed". Or just anything.


I think you should not invade her privacy but given that she has talked about coming home then I would keep this channel open. 

She has already told you it is over. I suspect you will detect this as a lie. I kept open a channel and it saved me from false R . 

You know the old saying. " Never ask a question you don't know the answer to" 
Are you in contact? Y/N
If you know then her answer speaks volumes.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> Can't stop. I think I'd like to see whatever the next message between then is going to be: expression if undying live or "I want to forget you ever existed". Or just anything.


Personally i think inside information is always good. Helpful info that could shape the outcome of which way to go in this.


----------



## Marc878

You wonder if she sees that all that charm and charisma of SOB was just to get in her pants?

Once the prize was taken he walks away looking for the next.

Probably denial at this point but time will tell.

Man the unicorns and rainbows faded away fast on this one.


----------



## sparrow555

> 1. I'll give her that - at least in my interpretation. She never blamed me and keeps repeating this is all on her. She claimed that when delivering be the ILYBNILWY speech - she was not criticizing the emotional part of me, just stating that the emotional connection with SOB was stronger. And now she wants to take even that back. At the same time AFAIK she didn't go to family and friends saying either "I cheated on H, my fault" or "H is cold blooded bastard, we are done". The story was "we were moving on". Point goes to STBWX I assume.


your first post says otherwise


----------



## Hantei

sparrow555 said:


> your first post says otherwise


Don't see it that way. She's always (straight after D-day I mean) been stating that I have done nothing wrong, she just feels choked and wants more emotional connection and all from a new guy. So don't see any controversy apart from her softening up on a chocked marriage bit.


----------



## JohnA

Dispite what others have said, all things being equal DO NOT STOP monitoring her until the paperwork iis filed and finalized. You know why I am sane today, a keylogger. No what ifs, no maybes. It sucked and I am shocked to this day I never let on. As to why, because before I busted up the affair the SOB was in my wife, and in my ****ing divorce. Yep he got off being the man at my exprese. My MIL (her dad lhad passed) lit into the SOB when WW tried to bring him around as did her Sibs, nieces and nephews. Look don't get me wrong, blood is blood but no way he was blood. Reading him ***** about me and how come everyone thought I was Mr. Wonderful helped me. 

So again you are ahead in rebuilding your life as she does not have him egging her on, but keep alert to what she is saying and doing. Keep an eye on the in-laws, the best you can expect is them staying out of it and making sure she has a roof over the her head and that is fair.


----------



## Chaparral

Chocked marriage is not a phrase used in the states that I know of. I'm assuming its like a chock behind a car tire.

Was she saying the marriage was going nowhere? Actually, once they enter the fog, they simply invent problems in the marriage that they may realize was untrue. In other words they change the marriage history in their minds until the fog disappears.


----------



## Graywolf2

ing said:


> *Do not underestimate yourself
> *
> Your wife is now at the very bottom of the dating pool for your age group, you are somewhere near the top, unless you are truly hideous.



I agree. The OM was more than happy to get free sex but when your wife wanted a relationship he ran for the hills. Men of all ages will line up around the block for free sex with an older woman but not for a relationship.

Men get more desirable as the get older and women get less desirable. I have a friend that couldn’t get a date in his 20’s. In his 30’s with a good job those same women were scratching at his door. Of course a lot of them were divorced or had a kid from the unstable guy without a job. 

Women want a nice stable guy to grow old with. You have a lot to offer.


----------



## bankshot1993

JohnA said:


> Dispite what others have said, all things being equal DO NOT STOP monitoring her until the paperwork iis filed and finalized. You know why I am sane today, a keylogger. No what ifs, no maybes. It sucked and I am shocked to this day I never let on. As to why, because before I busted up the affair the SOB was in my wife, and in my ****ing divorce. Yep he got off being the man at my exprese. My MIL (her dad lhad passed) lit into the SOB when WW tried to bring him around as did her Sibs, nieces and nephews. Look don't get me wrong, blood is blood but no way he was blood. Reading him ***** about me and how come everyone thought I was Mr. Wonderful helped me.
> 
> So again you are ahead in rebuilding your life as she does not have him egging her on, but keep alert to what she is saying and doing. Keep an eye on the in-laws, the best you can expect is them staying out of it and making sure she has a roof over the her head and that is fair.


I couldn't agree more. As long as there is any chance that H may consider R he should continue to monitor. If for no other reason than to protect him from false R. If H really is choice number 1 and the fog lifts this will help him to accpt that, if H is plan B and she is only coming back because she was rejected by posom than monitoring will save him from wasting years on someone he shouldn't be with. 

As soon as there is no hope or chance of R than stop monitoring and 180 the hell out of her life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> Can't stop. I think I'd like to see whatever the next message between then is going to be: expression if undying live or "I want to forget you ever existed". Or just anything.


Odds are, you won't get it, and that will hurt you.

Even if you did, it won't help you.

Learn to accept what she did and learn to accept that you're not likely to get the answers or validation you seek. 

From anyone but yourself, that is.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> Ashamed to say I did comfort her. .. a bit... not physically. .. just said she'll be alright. No hugs from me ATM.


I don't think there is anything wrong with this. 

As long as you don't do it in an affectionate way, you can empathize with her and acknowledge her struggle. But do it from a distance. 

The 180 does not say "be a d!ck". It says stay neutral, listen to your WW, and try to understand what she is telling you. Repeating her statements to her is a good way to let her know you really are listening. But don't encourage her, don't say "I understand", don't let her know that what she is feeling is having any impact on your emotions. 

As long as you stay frosty and do not allow her to suck you in to her pity party, you will be fine.


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> Odds are, you won't get it, and that will hurt you.
> 
> Even if you did, it won't help you.
> 
> Learn to accept what she did and learn to accept that you're not likely to get the answers or validation you seek.
> 
> From anyone but yourself, that is.


Some guys have to smack their thumb with a hammer repeatedly before they learn not to do that anymore. He will learn.


----------



## JohnA

@Satya put it best on how to implement the 180, polite and diplomatic. I am also a big believer in small acts of random kindness and courtesy done when not expected or asked. For example I am in the store and the day before my neighbor mentioned they need to pick up some postal stamps. I know they have a lot on their plate so I pick up a few dollars worth of stamps and leave them in their door. It goes back to the boy scout motto. "do a good deed daily".


----------



## Hantei

​


Chaparral said:


> Chocked marriage is not a phrase used in the states that I know of. I'm assuming its like a chock behind a car tire.
> 
> Was she saying the marriage was going nowhere? Actually, once they enter the fog, they simply invent problems in the marriage that they may realize was untrue. In other words they change the marriage history in their minds until the fog disappears.


I agree with re-writing history. I'm no angel but I spent hours thinking (perhaps irrationally) about any real problems in the marriage (not like when I've booked a restaurant table to surprise her, she cooked my favourite the same evening to surprise me) so I could justify R... couldn't come up with too man . Actually all these years we were teasing each other about everything. .. the only subject she never liked is that she's unhappy with marriage.

By choking she meant inability to breathe (not chalk as a drawing tool). Perhaps this is us vs Oz English (e.g. Centre or Center)?


----------



## bandit.45

If she had come to you and said _"Hantei...I'm not happy. I haven't been for a long, long time. I know I should have spoken up sooner, but I want a divorce." _ If she had done that instead of going out and getting in an affair, would you have let her go?


----------



## Hantei

bandit.45 said:


> If she had come to you and said _"Hantei...I'm not happy. I haven't been for a long, long time. I know I should have spoken up sooner, but I want a divorce." _ If she had done that instead of going out and getting in an affair, would you have let her go?


In all honesty yes. Assuming that this was something I couldn't improve on or she's not willing to give me a chance to do that.

Actually that's exactly what I told her after the discovery (I'm sure I mentioned it when someone pointed me to the "let her go" thread earlier). She subsequently quoted that speech as "you are not fighting for the marriage ".


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> In all honesty yes. Assuming that this was something I couldn't improve on or she's not willing to give me a chance to do that.
> 
> Actually that's exactly what I told her after the discovery (I'm sure I mentioned it when someone pointed me to the "let her go" thread earlier). *She subsequently quoted that speech as "you are not fighting for the marriage *".


To your face? :surprise:

How the hell did you not haul off and level her?


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> In all honesty yes. Assuming that this was something I couldn't improve on or she's not willing to give me a chance to do that.
> 
> Actually that's exactly what I told her after the discovery (I'm sure I mentioned it when someone pointed me to the "let her go" thread earlier). She subsequently quoted that speech as "you are not fighting for the marriage ".


See, that's what happens. @Zanne this is what I was talking about in that other thread.

Here's the deal. Your spouse got turned on by someone else and then had an affair. To justify the affair you had to become the bad guy in all that, and your marriage had to suck. So she retroactively decided that you were the bad guy and your marriage sucked. Which had nothing to do with you or the actual state of her marriage. So, in her mind, the affair was kinda your fault.

And then mr advanced dumped your wife, and suddenly the fog lifts and your wife realizes that you're a pretty good guy and the marriage wasn't so bad.

And now the dissolution of your marriage is your fault because "you're not fighting for her." Classic. Everything is your fault.

It is so damn easy to re-write history when you're the one getting sex on the side, and even easier when you're the one who is faced with the ego-shattering realization that you blew your life the hell up. Because it's far, far easier to continue to rationalize and make it other people's fault when deep down you know it's yours.

Keep going bud. She hasn't learned a damn thing from all this hot mess.


----------



## Marc878

Amusing. Hmmmmm

WS - I was not happy so I had sex with OM to give you a chance to fight for our marriage!!!!

Definitely cheater logic.

How about I didn't cheat on you so you get to compete with younger, beautiful, successful women if you want back in. I have developed a scorecard to see how well you stack up to the competition.

You'd better get a move on because you aren't getting any younger.


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> Amusing. Hmmmmm
> 
> WS - I was not happy so I had sex with OM to give you a chance to fight for our marriage!!!!
> 
> Definitely cheater logic.
> 
> How about I didn't cheat on you so you get to compete with younger, beautiful, successful women if you want back in. I have developed a scorecard to see how well you stack up to the competition.
> 
> You'd better get a move on because you aren't getting any younger.


Not exactly like that. Not in my face like @bandit.45 assumed. More like "I now see this is really over as you are clearly letting me go instead of fighting for the marriage". So initially in a context of her justifying to move on, later - this days - in a context "I ruined everything ". Struggling to explain better.

For the record my response was "what would you expect from a sane male adult who's missus just told him she is in love with other man? Chain you to the bed?".

ETA. Which does not invalidate what @marduk has posted.


----------



## bankshot1993

marduk said:


> See, that's what happens. @Zanne this is what I was talking about in that other thread.
> 
> Here's the deal. Your spouse got turned on by someone else and then had an affair. To justify the affair you had to become the bad guy in all that, and your marriage had to suck. So she retroactively decided that you were the bad guy and your marriage sucked. Which had nothing to do with you or the actual state of her marriage. So, in her mind, the affair was kinda your fault.
> 
> And then mr advanced dumped your wife, and suddenly the fog lifts and your wife realizes that you're a pretty good guy and the marriage wasn't so bad.
> 
> And now the dissolution of your marriage is your fault because "you're not fighting for her." Classic. Everything is your fault.
> 
> It is so damn easy to re-write history when you're the one getting sex on the side, and even easier when you're the one who is faced with the ego-shattering realization that you blew your life the hell up. Because it's far, far easier to continue to rationalize and make it other people's fault when deep down you know it's yours.
> 
> Keep going bud. She hasn't learned a damn thing from all this hot mess.


Boy, did you hit that one on the head. There is just no winner in this situation, just pain and destruction.


----------



## 86857

*^*
*^*​:iagree:​


----------



## Voltaire2013

See my gut reaction, and I'm sure I'm wrong in a way, would be to say 'hey stupid, you're the one who should be fighting for the marriage' Reconcillation is a gift. 

Be the best you and everything else will fall into place. With or without her.

Cheers,
V(13)


The


Hantei said:


> Not exactly like that. Not in my face like @bandit.45 assumed. More like "I now see this is really over as you are clearly letting me go instead of fighting for the marriage". So initially in a context of her justifying to move on, later - this days - in a context "I ruined everything ". Struggling to explain better.
> 
> For the record my response was "what would you expect from a sane male adult who's missus just told him she is in love with other man? Chain you to the bed?".
> 
> ETA. Which does not invalidate what @marduk has posted.


----------



## JohnA

It does not appear your wife is not brave enough to ask for reconciliation outright. It also appears see might be but is speaking woman. If you have the time read some of the WAW threads. In every case the wife claims she has been telling the husband for years she was unhappy and the husband thinks he was blindsided. So if you doubts in your mind about divorce you need to break the ice. The question is how. 

I would suggest after the next time she says she ruined everything just give her a gentle kiss on the forehead and tell her your hurting to, let me mull things over and I will text you my thoughts. No more then that and do not mention reconciliation. Later text her the image of Rodan's the kiss ( I sound like a broken record on that image but it works as an ice breaker) with a note saying "can't get out of my mind of how we where. Do you want to try to save our marriage or not? I am not saying it will work, but in will not say no if you say: I want to try reconcile ( I stepped up asked 20 plus years ago and ask you to marry me, it is your turn to step up and ask will you try to reconcile!) so ask do not hint and tell me about triggers and mind movies and what are you going to do about it. Tell me again what you said but didn't hear or understand. just tell me. While I do not know if either of us can forgive, but maybe we can find acceptance and redemption and a marriage well worth having. 

Be sure to use "either" when discussing forgiveness. Consider the word as a simple olive branch, just as the text I suggest sending. 
Be well and in dealing with this mess strive to be the man you respect in all things.


----------



## eric1

Dude


----------



## bankshot1993

Hantei said:


> Not exactly like that. Not in my face like @bandit.45 assumed. More like "I now see this is really over as you are clearly letting me go instead of fighting for the marriage". So initially in a context of her justifying to move on, later - this days - in a context "I ruined everything ". Struggling to explain better.
> 
> For the record my response was "what would you expect from a sane male adult who's missus just told him she is in love with other man? Chain you to the bed?".
> 
> ETA. Which does not invalidate what @marduk has posted.



Ummm, no, you threw away our marriage and burned down our lives when you decided that the best solution to fixing our marriage was jumping on naked men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

Hantie, have a good weekend. You deserve a break.


----------



## Be smart

If you think about R I suggest you to read your thread from the begining. 

Your wife never said she was sorry until the end when she realized OM is not ready to have her in his house or marry her. She knows she lost everything so she wants you as a Plan B.

She blamed you for hurting your son my friend!!! This is so wrong and not a mind of a really sorry woman.

Good luck to you and your son.

Stay strong.


----------



## Salad:p

I've been on TAM for a few years now but never really posted before. I've learned a lot and even healed personally from the advice given by TAM. 

I've been following this thread from the very first post. Hantei has been given top advice and handled his situation really well given the cards he has been dealt.

As for what is currently going on:
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that the pain, crying etc that the wife is experiencing and showing at this point in time is more so for the loss of the "true, real love" and "deepest emotional connection I've ever felt with anyone" that she feels? felt? for the OM. What she's experiencing is withdrawal symptoms from her affair high.
For a good amount of time she has been intentionally, emotionally detaching from Hentai and falling out of love with him while falling in love with the OM and forming a "deep, emotional connection" with him. That kind of feeling just does not go away after a few days of being dumped. She chose a future with the OM over that of her husband and son. She was convinced this was true love and meant to be. She was convinced everything would work out because of that.

I would not be surprised if Hantei's STXWW would quickly go back to the OM if he came calling saying that he was really sorry, he made a mistake, didn't mean what he said, that he was just scared of how quickly things proceeded and the whole situation becoming really messy for him, that he needed time to process things and figure out how to handle everything now that he had to be in her life full time and meet her friends, family, son; that he loves her and still feels like she's the deepest connection he's ever had and he wont find it with anyone else, blah blah blah.

IMHO she is more so mourning the loss of her great love right now, mixed with regrets that she was found out and thus could not control everything the way she planned for it to work out (she gets to divorce Hentai neatly citing whatever reasons, keeps a good relationship with her son and then be with the OM and introduce him to everyone as someone she met during or after her divorce). She's mourning the ruination of her reputation, a good relationship with her son, parents (I won't mention Hantei, she stopped really caring about him awhile ago) with nothing to show for it.

I also think that is one of the reasons why she is not talking about R. She can't feel like reconciling nor feel real remorse for the A if she is in mourning for her AP and the loss of their love.

I feel extra bad for Hantei because the selfishness of cheaters just don't stop... it is always about them. Even now when Hantei is in pain, when he should be the one rolled up in a ball crying, being comforted and told that it will be alright, instead, she's the one being the victim that's getting comforted.
Added to that is the irony that he's put in a position to give her some comfort for the pain she is experiencing of losing the "true love" with her AP and the consequent repercussions. 
She did not exhibit any of this behavior when doing to Hantei what the OM has now done to her.

I'm really sorry that you're going through this Han. I don't mean to make you feel worse than you are. I just don't agree with those telling you to throw her a lifeline or give her an inch in case she might be showing that she wants R but is "speaking woman" because she's not brave enough to ask it outright.
IMHO, what's being termed as cowardice is her mourning her loss of her AP and then everything else.
You deserve better than to be set up like that. You're not even really plan B yet. You can't even grieve in quiet and deal because you now have to deal with her affair loss pain.

Even if you might consider R down the line (which I advocate if the the WS is truly remorseful, the BS is capable of overcoming all and the believes that he can be truly happy with the WS thereafter) please make sure that SHE does TRULY want it, that SHE initiates and is truly remorseful. You do not need to go through the added pain of false R nor do you deserve to be a weak plan B.

Right now, she is no longer your responsibility, you're no longer her rock and leaning post. You need to be left alone to heal and deal too. Her best friend or whoever else should be a shoulder to cry on.

Whatever choice you make, just know that we're here to support you.


----------



## bandit.45

Salad you bring up good points. Where I disagree with you is the love part. What she had with the OM is deep infatuation...coupled with lust and the excitement of doing something risky and dangerous. That mixture is a heady brew and extremely intoxicating. And very addictive. 

What is really happening is she is going through dopamine withdrawal. She's an addict. No different than a heroin junkie going clean. Dopamine is the love drug. It is what makes us feel that euphoria of being "in love" and it is the brain chemical that causes humans to bond emotionally with other humans. 

With her OM she had passion, lust, danger, excitement, romance and that exquisite euphoria that being with someone new provides. She was well past that with Hantei. With Hantei she had a mortgage, and bills, car notes, sick parents, and kid problems, and all the other hundreds of boring, monotonous things that our lives entangle us in. 

Without without the source of her dopamine she is a wreck. It is going to take her a long time to normalize. Once she does, she may come out of the "fog" as some people call it, and wake up and see that vastness of the destruction she has caused. This may already be happening. And yes, she at the stage where she could very easily relapse should the OM ask her to rejoin him.


----------



## GusPolinski

We typically wait for the WS to explicitly express a desire to reconcile w/ his or her BS before we point out that all of the agony, despair, and "remorse" that is all of a sudden out front and on display is actually for the AP and not the BS.

For whatever reason, putting out the warning ahead of time just doesn't have the same effect... probably because it gets lost in the pages and pages of additional posts, threadjacks, side discussions, and arguments that take place between the point at which the input is prescient and the point at which it becomes directly relevant.

Still, @Hantei... keep this in mind.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hantei

I think you guys (and ladies) got it spot on. I refer to the last couple of posts. Which for my simple "if this then that" mind can be summarised as: if she's waiting for SOB she won't come back. If the fog dissipates and sheccomes back- I'm plan B.

I don't have anything outstanding for an update but this Saturday (Sunday morning here) I guess was some sort of turning point for me. A trusted 3rd party got involved (someone really close to both of us) and informed me that my STBXW had a medical problem caused by stress. I'm not posting any details- sufficient to say her relatives got worried the way she was behaving and started digging- as a net result she had to seek medical attention. 

At the same time Saturday was my day with son - he always wanted to try kite surfing so that have been arranged. So when I got a call Saturday morning about STBXW I literally started to get the gear out of the car - so I can go and visit her. With all soap opera like pictures in my mind. Then I stopped and- with some serious help in a form of feedback from some esteemed TAM members - I changed my mind. Called the 3rd party, confirmed STBXW is ok now, grabbed the kid and we spend a day on the bay kite surfing (loved it, will be buying my own) and jet skiing. 

It looks shallow and mundane but this was so not like good old me. I hope I'm starting to detach. And TAM feedback was instrumental- now I realise I wouldn't forgive myself afterwards if I'd allow myself to ruin yet another day.


----------



## Marc878

Nice job. She brought the stress on herself. And right now she is no longer your problem. You should have told the 3rd party that and had them call the new love of her life the great god OM.

But I'm an azz so..........


----------



## GusPolinski

As long as you confirmed that she was, in fact, OK, then I think -- strictly speaking -- that you're good.

That said, you should have probably informed your son w/ respect to what was going on and then asked him if he wanted to go chef in on her. Did you do that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1

I think that is the best f u c k i n g thing you've done in months man. Congrats for making a PERFECT decision.


----------



## Hantei

GusPolinski said:


> As long as you confirmed that she was, in fact, OK, then I think -- strictly speaking -- that you're good.
> 
> That said, you should have probably informed your son w/ respect to what was going on and then asked him if he wanted to go chef in on her. Did you do that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did in fact. She was supposed to take him to the shopping centre today to buy him some new "fashion" clothing so we both confirmed she's ok to do it. Then we went to the bay. They are in the shops atm.


----------



## Marc878

Obviously it wasn't to serious to stop a shopping trip. Probably a pity party. 

Or the OM stopped by and just from the strength of his charismatic aura pulled her back from deaths door. 

Pardon me I have to go puke.

Is OM still lurking in the shadows out of sight?


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> I did in fact. She was supposed to take him to the shopping centre today to buy him some new "fashion" clothing so we both confirmed she's ok to do it. Then we went to the bay. They are in the shops atm.


Good work, Dad.

More than one WS has wound up in the ER or worse @morituri's and @Acoa's WWs come to mind) in the days or weeks following a sudden realization w/ respect to the degree to which they've completely f*cked themselves, and there's always the chance for thlse situations to take a sudden and really bad turn. I can't remember names or threads at the moment, but I do recall reading at least a couple of stories in which a WS (and even BS) committed suicide.

And, though you won't really find me shedding any tears for them (the WS's, that is), you've got to take the time to stop and think about the kids.

(Hope you're doing well, mori.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

I expect her true feelings will surface in the next week or so.

I would maintain civil no contact except for the boy.

Reread No More Mr Nice Guy for reinforcement.


----------



## GusPolinski

Marc878 said:


> I expect her true feelings will surface in the next week or so.
> 
> *I would maintain civil no contact except for the boy.*
> 
> Reread No More Mr Nice Guy for reinforcement.


Well... at his age, he likely has his own cell phone, e-mail addresses, social media, etc.

Problem solved.

(Except for emergencies, of course.)


----------



## 86857

Nice work Hantei. 
It may happen to WS again if it's related to all that's gone down. 
Now you have your strategy to use if it does. 
Glad to hear her illness wasn't serious. Even more glad to hear you & your son had a fun day. 

From what I read on here only good things come out of 180. 
The reaction of WS in a 180 can clearly show whether R is an option. 
Upset or not, ball is in her court. Again, you're the one who should be comforted - by WS! 

Is she someone who can turn on tears at will? 
Sometimes when you describe it I get the impression she is exaggerating it some. 
Is she able to hold it together in front of your son & starts it up again if he goes out? 
Only you can be the judge of that. 

It's true you can't be in lust with someone & everything going well one minute & then they dump you the next, without feeling pretty awful. 
So yes, it might explain some (or all) of her anguish. 
Note I said lust & not love. Definitely not love for OM as he dumped her. 
He was in it for a good time, not a long time. She will also be feeling used. 

I also think 180 is a lot easier if you keep the contact to the minimum to avoid the temptation of breaking it, especially if she is always distressed which seems to be the case. 
But maybe I'm just getting the wrong impression on that. 

Keep doing what you're doing .


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> Obviously it wasn't to serious to stop a shopping trip. Probably a pity party.
> 
> Or the OM stopped by and just from the strength of his charismatic aura pulled her back from deaths door.
> 
> Pardon me I have to go puke.
> 
> Is OM still lurking in the shadows out of sight?


I know that it was real and some sort of clinical diagnosis has been made. I don't want to post actual details. But definitely not serious that requires admission to hospital or staying in bed. So I'm glad she was able to soend time with the kid today. 

I have no clue about the OM but from what I know they are not communicating or spending time together. In fact hher I've been told she "hates him" FWIW.


----------



## Hantei

GusPolinski said:


> Well... at his age, he likely has his own cell phone, e-mail addresses, social media, etc.
> 
> Problem solved.
> 
> (Except for emergencies, of course.)


Exactly.


----------



## bandit.45

You did good Hantei. Absolutely you should not feel guilty in any way. Again...your WW fired you from being the man who comes to her rescue. She has no one to do that for her anymore, and this will be one of the painful lessons she will have to absorb and hopefully learn from. I hope she learns, and in the process developes some empathy. Maybe this is the rock bottom moment she has been needing. 

But I like the fact that you are detaching. That is exactly what you should be doing.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> I think you guys (and ladies) got it spot on. I refer to the last couple of posts. Which for my simple "if this then that" mind can be summarised as: if she's waiting for SOB she won't come back. If the fog dissipates and sheccomes back- I'm plan B.
> 
> I don't have anything outstanding for an update but this Saturday (Sunday morning here) I guess was some sort of turning point for me. A trusted 3rd party got involved (someone really close to both of us) and informed me that my STBXW had a medical problem caused by stress. I'm not posting any details- sufficient to say her relatives got worried the way she was behaving and started digging- as a net result she had to seek medical attention.
> 
> At the same time Saturday was my day with son - he always wanted to try kite surfing so that have been arranged. So when I got a call Saturday morning about STBXW I literally started to get the gear out of the car - so I can go and visit her. With all soap opera like pictures in my mind. Then I stopped and- with some serious help in a form of feedback from some esteemed TAM members - I changed my mind. Called the 3rd party, confirmed STBXW is ok now, grabbed the kid and we spend a day on the bay kite surfing (loved it, will be buying my own) and jet skiing.
> 
> It looks shallow and mundane but this was so not like good old me. I hope I'm starting to detach. And TAM feedback was instrumental- now I realise I wouldn't forgive myself afterwards if I'd allow myself to ruin yet another day.


Like a boss. That makes 4 times I have said that now.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## alte Dame

I want to second and third the advice to stick with the 180. It will help keep your head clear so that you can make decisions that are best for you. One day at a time. Build your strength.


----------



## Marc878

You've done well in a crappy situation. Didn't hesitate on exposure, etc. being strong even when you're in turmoil inside in this situation is a major plus.

Everything and everyone is on your timetable at this time. From what you've written you are in control as much as you can be. 

How are you holding up?


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> I know that it was real and some sort of clinical diagnosis has been made. I don't want to post actual details. But definitely not serious that requires admission to hospital or staying in bed. So I'm glad she was able to soend time with the kid today.
> 
> I have no clue about the OM but from what I know they are not communicating or spending time together. In fact hher I've been told she "hates him" FWIW.


Hate and love are not far apart. 

She hates what he has done maybe. But hating him? That is her projecting her feeling towards herself onto her AP.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

Once again- as if you were in the same room. I feel like I'm virtually related to a dozen of strangers here :nerd:

She is not like that - e.g. turning tears on when needed- quite the opposite if you ask me (of course one would say she is also not the like to cheat. I'm finding a strange consolation she thought it's live even if it was lust as you put it - not some drunken F%=÷ck-and-forget ONS). So I'd say that combined with the way she looks this was not a show. Apparently when she asked for a leave her boss didn't have to ask why. 

I think feeling used is the right word. Doesn't mean she's over him but... let me try to answer that without TMI: her relatives got worried when she started to exhibit symptoms consistent with "being used". They started to dig and she went off rails. Can you read between lines?

All in all yyour impression is not wrong and I intend to go on with 180 and all... which is easier to do if it gets validated and supported, that's why I post so much. Is there a whimper icon here?




********** said:


> Nice work Hantei.
> It may happen to WS again if it's related to all that's gone down.
> Now you have your strategy to use if it does.
> Glad to hear her illness wasn't serious. Even more glad to hear you & your son had a fun day.
> 
> From what I read on here only good things come out of 180.
> The reaction of WS in a 180 can clearly show whether R is an option.
> Upset or not, ball is in her court. Again, you're the one who should be comforted - by WS!
> 
> Is she someone who can turn on tears at will?
> Sometimes when you describe it I get the impression she is exaggerating it some.
> Is she able to hold it together in front of your son & starts it up again if he goes out?
> Only you can be the judge of that.
> 
> It's true you can't be in lust with someone & everything going well one minute & then they dump you the next, without feeling pretty awful.
> So yes, it might explain some (or all) of her anguish.
> Note I said lust & not love. Definitely not love for OM as he dumped her.
> He was in it for a good time, not a long time. She will also be feeling used.
> 
> I also think 180 is a lot easier if you keep the contact to the minimum to avoid the temptation of breaking it, especially if she is always distressed which seems to be the case.
> But maybe I'm just getting the wrong impression on that.
> 
> Keep doing what you're doing .


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> Hate and love are not far apart.


Different ends of the same emotion, IMO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hantei

alte Dame said:


> I want to second and third the advice to stick with the 180. It will help keep your head clear so that you can make decisions that are best for you. One day at a time. Build your strength.


Thank you. Helps a lot.


----------



## TX-SC

Keep it up buddy! You are handling this situation better than most guys would.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> I think feeling used is the right word. Doesn't mean she's over him but... let me try to answer that without TMI: her relatives got worried when she started to exhibit symptoms consistent with "being used". They started to dig and she went off rails. Can you read between lines?


Uh oh, wonder what the high and mighty inlaws are thinking about the greatest man in the world who their daughter should have married now???? 

She was in lurve and he was a one night stand flash in the pan man. Who cowardly disappears at the first sign of trouble. Wonder if MIL swallowed her dentures at this disappointment?

My, my, my.


----------



## Marc878

Hantie, you are definitely on the high ground no matter what happens. 

Yep, 180 and watch the train wreck.

Sorry you're in this sh!t. 

SOB isn't worthy of polishing your shoes.

Actually none of them are.


----------



## Marc878

Maybe I've been on this thread to much. I'm craving a thick rare steak, grilled shrimp on the barbie and an ice cold oilcan of Fosters??? WTH!!!!!

Hantie, this is all your fault!!!


----------



## bandit.45

I feel like digging out my old Midnight Oil CDs and giving them a listen.


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> Maybe I've been on this thread to much. I'm craving a thick rare steak, grilled shrimp on the barbie and an ice cold oilcan of Fosters??? WTH!!!!!
> 
> Hantie, this is all your fault!!!


Of course, all is my fault. It's Tooheys btw.

P.S. I definitely picked up a wrong user name.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> Of course, all is my fault. It's Tooheys btw.
> 
> P.S. I definitely picked up a wrong user name.


I work with an Aussie and he told me Fosters is actually not that well regarded in Oz, is hard to find, and that it is made more for export.


----------



## JohnA

Interesting drift in the conversation. I recall Ckome1800 thread where the same thimg happened. It seem at the time to indicate Ckrome had turned a corner, for the better. (Although he decided to reconcile.). I also notice you (Hantei) are also starting to post on other threads. Again it seems when I've seen this in the past it indicated a poster turning a corner. That somewhere inside them a decision was made and they began to follow though. 

I think you handied your WW medical issues well. A while ago I posted if I saw my exWW hanging from a cliff, I would dail 911 and keep hiking. You heard about the issue, you verified it, you made sure others were addressing it properly, and kept hiking. In short the 180 done politely and diplomatically. 

Be well.


----------



## sparrow555

> Can you read between lines?


I can't.


----------



## Chaparral

The point is she's blown up her life and can't figure out how to fix it because there is no way to go back in time. Losing everything by ones own hand is different than say losing everything in a wreck that some other drunk driver caused. Not only is she suffering the greatest loss, her family, she's suffering the guilt that she did it. She burned it down.


----------



## bandit.45

Chaparral said:


> The point is she's blown up her life and can't figure out how to fix it because there is no way to go back in time. Losing everything by ones own hand is different than say losing everything in a wreck that some other drunk driver caused. Not only is she suffering the greatest loss, her family, she's suffering the guilt that she did it. She burned it down.


She can fix it. But her pride and shame will not allow her to. It would require her truly opening up to Hantei, showing him her vulnerability, and doing the hard work to show him she can be a safe partner. 

But she cannot mentally do that right now. She is incapable. Problem is, by the time she does become capable, Hantei will have moved on.


----------



## GusPolinski

Posted this elsewhere a while back...



GusPolinski said:


> If she gets sh*tty w/ you, turn it back on her...
> 
> "Basically what you're asking me to do is to enable your sh*t behavior while simultaneously limiting your growth as a human being. Soon you'll be a single mother, and it's going to be tough. You need to be prepared for it, but you're not. And you never will be if I continue to coddle you at every turn.
> 
> You're going to need to change your own lightbulbs. You're going to need to stomp your own bugs. Fix your own leaks. Air up your own tires. Check your own oil. Pump your own gas, file your own taxes, tighten your own screws, oil your own doorknobs, and flip your own breakers. And all of that began the moment that you started cheating on me.
> 
> Up until now, though, I've inadvertently delayed your growth by being such a 'nice guy'. I've let you control me. I've let you manipulate me. I've let you use my innate fear of change to dictate and determine my actions at every turn. All of that ends now."


Something to think about, @Hantei.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame

(For some reason, I'm getting error messages if I try to like posts on this page, so please everyone here just assume that I have liked all the posts , which I have.)

I know how satisfying it is to have a WS start to appear to feel consequences and remorse. It helps the ego and kind of sets the universe back on its proper trajectory.

It's hard to stay firm with a decision to detach and separate/divorce if you think your WW is coming out of the fog and could return to you.

My natural instincts tell me two very different things in situations like this. The first is to breathe a sigh of relief that I might, after all, not be the sad sack, heartbroken, rejected stbx of a cheating spouse. The second is the intuition that my holding firm on being strong and putting myself first is actually the best and most effective way to move forward no matter what happens. 

Basically, I think you do both of those things: You feel vindicated that your WW is perhaps experiencing some regret and/or consequences, and you hold firm with your detachment. You stand back with your heart in your throat basically, working on you as you see what unfolds with her.

I agree very much with the others that what you could be noting is her mourning the loss of the OM rather than the loss of her life as she knew it. I sense, though, that she's imploding because of all of it. She had such a blinkered, teenaged view of this guy that that bubble had to burst at some time. 

So, I would do the hard thing and stay aloof. Keep taking care of yourself. You can't go wrong with that. Also remember that any feeler for reconciliation from her is just the start of a very long and difficult road. Feelings change dramatically in infidelity, not just hers, but yours as well. When the dust settles on her stupid A, you'll be a different person, too.


----------



## just got it 55

Flawless AD

55


----------



## alte Dame




----------



## Marc878

alte Dame said:


> So, I would do the hard thing and stay aloof. Keep taking care of yourself. You can't go wrong with that. Also remember that any feeler for reconciliation from her is just the start of a very long and difficult road. Feelings change dramatically in infidelity, not just hers, but yours as well. When the dust settles on her stupid A, you'll be a different person, too.


Probably the biggest mistake most BS's make is offering reconciliation to quick if at all. The WS breathes a huge sigh of relief!

*PLAN B IS STILL INTACT!!!*

Reconciliation is a gift totally under your control.

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE..._Guy.pdf/RK=0/RS=0J8lkkDLdFsPBQ9bRWPE3ileHKw-


----------



## TX-SC

https://youtu.be/aB2yqeD0Nus

I keep popping in to tell you that you are doing great and I feel like the clip above. But, you are handling this great. Keep your distance for a while and just see what happens.


----------



## JohnA

@Marc878 I have been mulling over the concept of reconciliation as a gift for awhile now. At this pomt I disagree. If I was to reconcile (way back when ) it would have only been for two reasons. Frist I thpught she hadnte chacter to do pretty much everything poster advise to look for. Second, because and ONLY BRCAUSE it was what I DECIEDED was best for me and ONLY ME.

Hard to see that asba gift.


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> Uh oh, wonder what the high and mighty inlaws are thinking about the greatest man in the world who their daughter should have married now????
> 
> She was in lurve and he was a one night stand flash in the pan man. Who cowardly disappears at the first sign of trouble. Wonder if MIL swallowed her dentures at this disappointment?
> 
> My, my, my.


I bet she thinks that- as usual - her noble and best intentions have been misunderstood by the mere mortals. I also think she thinks that the SOB is flawless, STBXW blew her chances carefully offered to her by her caring mum and that yours truly is that sort ofuunstable bastard she always new I am.

Sarcastic.


----------



## Hantei

bandit.45 said:


> I work with an Aussie and he told me Fosters is actually not that well regarded in Oz, is hard to find, and that it is made more for export.


Ewww!


----------



## Hantei

Chaparral said:


> The point is she's blown up her life and can't figure out how to fix it because there is no way to go back in time. Losing everything by ones own hand is different than say losing everything in a wreck that some other drunk driver caused. Not only is she suffering the greatest loss, her family, she's suffering the guilt that she did it. She burned it down.


Looks like it. Or she misses the SOB.


----------



## Hantei

bandit.45 said:


> She can fix it. But her pride and shame will not allow her to. It would require her truly opening up to Hantei, showing him her vulnerability, and doing the hard work to show him she can be a safe partner.
> 
> But she cannot mentally do that right now. She is incapable. Problem is, by the time she does become capable, Hantei will have moved on.


Please also add an inevitable influence from the family to the mix. Some of them will put a lot of pressure to prevent any admission of wrong doing.
I think.


----------



## Hantei

:iagree:

NB. As soon as I'm in control of my emotions I'm not going to offer R even if it will cost me dearly. At least from where I am now.

Got a question though. As many have predicted there may be a point where my STBXW offers me R. Personally I'm not sure but so far the accuracy of the majority here is around 90%. 

So if this happens- do I have a moral obligation to accept it or at least try and what could happen if I reject it flat? 

Any cases when this has happened (R rejected)?





alte Dame said:


> (For some reason, I'm getting error messages if I try to like posts on this page, so please everyone here just assume that I have liked all the posts , which I have.)
> 
> I know how satisfying it is to have a WS start to appear to feel consequences and remorse. It helps the ego and kind of sets the universe back on its proper trajectory.
> 
> It's hard to stay firm with a decision to detach and separate/divorce if you think your WW is coming out of the fog and could return to you.
> 
> My natural instincts tell me two very different things in situations like this. The first is to breathe a sigh of relief that I might, after all, not be the sad sack, heartbroken, rejected stbx of a cheating spouse. The second is the intuition that my holding firm on being strong and putting myself first is actually the best and most effective way to move forward no matter what happens.
> 
> Basically, I think you do both of those things: You feel vindicated that your WW is perhaps experiencing some regret and/or consequences, and you hold firm with your detachment. You stand back with your heart in your throat basically, working on you as you see what unfolds with her.
> 
> I agree very much with the others that what you could be noting is her mourning the loss of the OM rather than the loss of her life as she knew it. I sense, though, that she's imploding because of all of it. She had such a blinkered, teenaged view of this guy that that bubble had to burst at some time.
> 
> So, I would do the hard thing and stay aloof. Keep taking care of yourself. You can't go wrong with that. Also remember that any feeler for reconciliation from her is just the start of a very long and difficult road. Feelings change dramatically in infidelity, not just hers, but yours as well. When the dust settles on her stupid A, you'll be a different person, too.


----------



## TDSC60

MIL's plan blew up in her face.
STBXW's perfect lover, her ideal man, her soul mate, her romantic poet, turns out to be a player just looking for some nookie.
Neither MIL nor STBXW will admit to any wrong doing.
Of course all this cannot be their fault. They cannot have made mistake and mistake after mistake.
They could not have destroyed her family by choosing OM over the love, trust, and stability that she had before betraying all that for totally selfish reasons.
They cannot be held responsible for the anger of her son and husband.
It has to be all Hentai's fault. It is only logical that he did or did not do something that caused all of this.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> :iagree:
> 
> NB. As soon as I'm in control of my emotions I'm not going to offer R even if it will cost me dearly. At least from where I am now.
> 
> Got a question though. As many have predicted there may be a point where my STBXW offers me R. Personally I'm not sure but so far the accuracy of the majority here is around 90%.
> 
> So if this happens- do I have a moral obligation to accept it or at least try...


Absolutely not.



Hantei said:


> ...and what could happen if I reject it flat?


Pretty much anything. Given everything that you've written about her to date, though, I'd be willing to bet that a) if she brings it up at all, she'll do so in a very emotionally "muted" manner, b) it will include plenty of blameshifting, deflection, minimizing, etc, and c) upon being rejected, she'd just drop it and proceed to start talking sh*t about you to everyone.

Honestly, though, she may not even ask. She doesn't strike me as someone capable of doing everything rightfully expected and required of a wayward in reconciliation, and she probably knows that about herself.

Plus there's the pride thing.



Hantei said:


> Any cases when this has happened (R rejected)?


None that come to mind at the moment, but I'm sure there are plenty.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> :iagree:
> 
> NB. As soon as I'm in control of my emotions I'm not going to offer R even if it will cost me dearly. At least from where I am now.
> 
> Got a question though. As many have predicted there may be a point where my STBXW offers me R. Personally I'm not sure but so far the accuracy of the majority here is around 90%.
> 
> So if this happens- do I have a moral obligation to accept it or at least try and what could happen if I reject it flat?
> 
> Any cases when this has happened (R rejected)?


Many cannot R. It's a huge amount of time and effort with no guarantees.

You have zero obligation to R. This is totally up to you.

R for the children???? Some use that as an excuse to R which I think is short sighted. The damage to your son over this has been done. Many children adapt to divorce and grow up fine. Do not accept this as your fault if divorce is the route you choose. She choose to have the affair. 

IMO I would look at what my capabilities are. Could I get over, accept this for the next 30 years? Understanding that the infidelity will never go away. 

I would not want to spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder. Trust never comes back 100%. Some can cope with this.

Its tough. A marriage cannot compete with the short term excitement of an affair. Although the excitement of an affair can never last the memories do. Hence, is the marriage with all its day to day life always boring compared to the excitement of the affair? I don't think in most cases it ever recovers fully. Therefore you're always plan B???

Does the good of a stable marriage out way the affair? For some I'm sure it does. 

That's why you need to think long and hard about what you want. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.


----------



## Marc878

GusPolinski said:


> None that come to mind at the moment, but I'm sure there are plenty.


BFF rejected R, I don't remember all but more went straight to divorce without an attempt at R here.


----------



## bandit.45

From what I can gather from the myriad of posts I have read from TAM and other websites, a BS who reconciles with their WS initially are happy when R does occur, but then when they ask those who have been in R for ten years or so about 50% overall say that they wish they would have divorced the WS back when they had the chance to do so. But of those, the males are about 70% saying they wish they would have divorced.


----------



## Marc878

As far as the blame shifting, rewrighting of the marital history in case there is no R if that is what you choose.

The best response is this. You wanted out and I've agreed to let you go.

You are no longer anything to me and are completely free to go and do as you want.

I intend to do the same.

No need to talk about it further than that.


----------



## JohnA

For there sakes I hope not in front of your son. You have indicated that you cage from more humble origins then your wife or her posm. My dad came from a much different background then my mom. Her dad was a successful sole practitioner attorney. Her mom also had a college degree and taught into her early thirties before having children. My grandmother was born in 1900 so you can image how rare that was. 

They where so concerned that even though they thought the world of him they went to my mom and told her it wasn't to late to cancel the wedding the night before. She basically told them to get out and it wasn't to late for them not to come to the wedding. Mom was a gentle person made of steel and both of them aiways had each other backs. My grandmother let that slip when I was in my thirties by making a comment about what a great husband dad was and mom made the right decision. In any event mpm's brother made a comment to me about my dad in my very early teens and I shot back a F you. He started to get handies with me. His aunt saw what was about to happen and shouted Xxx no, Yyy will kill. He stopped, gave me a dirty look and walked away. My dad, one of the most gentle humans to live, also made of steel. 

So here is my point, all good on you Hantei. You know your worth, do not allow her back in your life if she completely does not also feel the same. If this attitude has been part of your marriage you are in for a very pleasant surprise next around.


----------



## Marc878

Be prepared!!!!

Your feelings/thoughts will change daily at least. Hers as well.

Make no commitment without some thought behind it.

You are in for the roller coaster ride of your life. Probably more so than the up front affair discovery.

However, you have support that have been there before you.

Good luck man


----------



## JohnA

Sorry meant to say my uncles wife not his aunt. She was a smart woman. When my uncle started to dump her for a OW when they where in ther fifties, she ran to folks for shelter not her's. Between Dad, mom, and grahdma someone bread him a come to Satan talk. Other Woman disappeared overnight. My aunt made a mistake taking him back. But she got what she wanted I guess.


----------



## Marc878

JohnA said:


> @Marc878 I have been mulling over the concept of reconciliation as a gift for awhile now. At this pomt I disagree. If I was to reconcile (way back when ) it would have only been for two reasons. Frist I thpught she hadnte chacter to do pretty much everything poster advise to look for. Second, because and ONLY BRCAUSE it was what I DECIEDED was best for me and ONLY ME.
> 
> Hard to see that asba gift.


If I offer someone something that they don't have what is that?

In my mind it's a gift. If you don't offer it's nothing.


----------



## Hantei

Correct however your post somehow (I fail to see the connection to but it did) clicked with a substantial amount of anger I'm feeling now.

You see they spent around $600 on Sunday and my kid was happy but mentioned he wished I was there and normally I'd be happy as Larry about him getting what he wants. But the only thing on my mind today is why the hell it has to be so difficult now (and will get more difficult as we go)?






bandit.45 said:


> From what I can gather from the myriad of posts I have read from TAM and other websites, a BS who reconciles with their WS initially are happy when R does occur, but then when they ask those who have been in R for ten years or so about 50% overall say that they wish they would have divorced the WS back when they had the chance to do so. But of those, the males are about 70% saying they wish they would have divorced.


----------



## 86857

Marc878 said:


> Be prepared!!!!
> 
> Your feelings/thoughts will change daily at least. Hers as well.
> 
> Make no commitment without some thought behind it.
> 
> You are in for the roller coaster ride of your life. *Probably more so than the up front affair discovery.*
> 
> However, you have support that have been there before you.
> 
> Good luck man


Brilliant @Marc878, especially the part I have bolded.

@Hantei - great when you said you were glad WS was well enough to meet son as planned. You are acknowledging, no matter what, WS is his Mom & we only get one. Hard to feel like that while dealing with the fact she nuked the family, as well as dealing with emotions of betrayal which are HORRIBLE . Your son is lucky - he has a damn fine Dad . 

Also good that WS doesn't 'turn on the tears'. It muddies things up as you wouldn't know when she was genuinely sad etc.

Loved the beer discussion. Hang on to your sense of humour as much as you can. 

IMO 'moral obligation' should NOT be a factor in deciding R. It should be for YOU, 100%. May sound harsh but I don't think it should even be for your son. As a poster said, he's old enough that the damage is done. If he was only 5 years old, it would be different IMO. 
Happy Dad = Happy Son. 

Also maybe read some R threads to get a sense of what's ahead if you do R. Might give you an idea of whether you're a BS who can handle it. 

PS No whimper icon required. Your thread is getting a lot of airplay cos you are doing it by the book & taking note of what posters say which will result in the best possible outcome for you whichever way it goes. As you said 90% predict the trajectory well. . . cos they've been there. Your way of handling it will be an inspiration for future BS who end up on here. 
So, keep posting!
PPS Hope I don't sound didactic or preachy.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> Correct however your post somehow (I fail to see the connection to but it did) clicked with a substantial amount of anger I'm feeling now.
> 
> You see they spent around $600 on Sunday and my kid was happy but mentioned he wished I was there and normally I'd be happy as Larry about him getting what he wants. But the only thing on my mind today is why the hell it has to be so difficult now (and will get more difficult as we go)?


It's normal. You see what this has done to your life, family and future.

You will have different stages. Everyone is different, sorry you're going through this.
1st - normally shock
2nd - anger
3rd- sadness

However, try not to let your emotions overrule your head on your course of action. Easier said than done I know.


----------



## JohnA

@Marc878 I get where younger coming from. I do. But in the end the BS first needs to do it for himself based on some level of reassurance that the WS will not repeat past behavior. (which is usually close to what 20% they will keep their word. Yes I might be high with that number but some people do win the lottery.)

Be Well


----------



## JohnA

@Marc878 I get where younger coming from. I do. But in the end the BS first needs to do it for himself based on some level of reassurance that the WS will not repeat past behavior. (which is usually close to what 20% they will keep their word. Yes I might be high with that number but some people do win the lottery.)

Be Well


----------



## Hantei

No you are not, but even if you do I value the feedback. 

Actually didactic would be really good right now 




********** said:


> Brilliant @Marc878, especially the part I have bolded.
> 
> @Hantei - great when you said you were glad WS was well enough to meet son as planned. You are acknowledging, no matter what, WS is his Mom & we only get one. Hard to feel like that while dealing with the fact she nuked the family, as well as dealing with emotions of betrayal which are HORRIBLE . Your son is lucky - he has a damn fine Dad .
> 
> Also good that WS doesn't 'turn on the tears'. It muddies things up as you wouldn't know when she was genuinely sad etc.
> 
> Loved the beer discussion. Hang on to your sense of humour as much as you can.
> 
> IMO 'moral obligation' should NOT be a factor in deciding R. It should be for YOU, 100%. May sound harsh but I don't think it should even be for your son. As a poster said, he's old enough that the damage is done. If he was only 5 years old, it would be different IMO.
> Happy Dad = Happy Son.
> 
> Also maybe read some R threads to get a sense of what's ahead if you do R. Might give you an idea of whether you're a BS who can handle it.
> 
> PS No whimper icon required. Your thread is getting a lot of airplay cos you are doing it by the book & taking note of what posters say which will result in the best possible outcome for you whichever way it goes. As you said 90% predict the trajectory well. . . cos they've been there. Your way of handling it will be an inspiration for future BS who end up on here.
> So, keep posting!
> PPS Hope I don't sound didactic or preachy.


----------



## Hantei

2a. Disgust. 





Marc878 said:


> It's normal. You see what this has done to your life, family and future.
> 
> You will have different stages. Everyone is different, sorry you're going through this.
> 1st - normally shock
> 2nd - anger
> 3rd- sadness
> 
> However, try not to let your emotions overrule your head on your course of action. Easier said than done I know.


----------



## ing

I had the chance to genuinely reconcile on a couple of occasions.

The thing I could not reconcile was that after so many years I could be so easily discarded. 
After the initial pain the other things that I found difficult were deeper and more worrying

How can anyone put their happiness above that of their kids welfare?
I do understand that there are times when removing the kid from a parent is essential. Just to get your jollies though. Really. Who is this?

How is it okay to expect that I will be waiting for when finished?
I also got the "didn't fight for marriage" line. I still have no idea what it means and really it no longer matters

I would always feel like she had settled for me. Not just since the affair but always. When I look back over that quarter of a century and compare it to my new relationships it is easy to see that I was never her type. I was never going to be good enough.

Funnily enough I also had a MIL that thought I was out of my league since I made my own way. For the record I made good money and as the money went up, I had more time . The more successful I was, the more it appeared like I was doing nothing. This irritated MIL no end because she wanted her daughter to have a man with a "proper job" 

What about if I am sick, disabled and not able to function as I do now. What then? Will she just bu(gg)er off again?

Now.. I am different . I will not put up with this. I would rather be alone. at least you can plan things based on reality then. I am not alone but no longer fear it.


----------



## GusPolinski

ing said:


> I also got the "didn't fight for marriage" line. I still have no idea what it means and really it no longer matters


It means that she noticed when you stopped giving her ego kibbles.

It stung a little when you decided to stop being a supplier, but it didn't _really_ matter because she was still getting her fix from OM.

But later on, when things w/ OM fell through, and the cotton candy-scented unicorn fart fog started to dissipate, that's when she decided that, though you'd committed this egregious -- and, in any other set of circumstances, unforgivable -- offense, she'd forgive you for it.

And how DARE you not avail yourself of such a gracious gift!


----------



## TDSC60

"Didn't fight for the marriage"? I have seen that mentioned by a couple of poster now as coming from WWs.

How can you fight for something that was destroyed the minute she dropped her panties for OM or the minute she tells her husband she is in love with another man? The marriage is no longer an issue, she killed it, it is dead, nothing left to fight for.

Add me to the list of folks who tell you that you DO NOT have a moral obligation to try R even if she offers (personally I don't think she will) Or if she does, it will be more along the lines of "Well we both screwed up. Want to try again?" She left thinking that she would ride off into the sunset with OM. If she comes back now wanting R, you are definitely the Plan B that she is settling for. In her mind you are "better than nothing" which is what she has since OM bailed. Do not be Plan B. You are better than that. Your kid is a teenager. He doesn't have that many more years at home anyway. So staying for him would be pointless. Better to rip that band-aid off now.


----------



## TDSC60

GusPolinski said:


> *the cotton candy-scented unicorn fart fog*


:rofl::lol: Just spit all over my screen.


----------



## Hantei

Quoted snippets from your post do absolutely resonate. 

Basically it is me (unless you claim copyright then I'm in infringement). 



ing said:


> The thing I could not reconcile was that after so many years I could be so easily discarded.
> 
> How can anyone put their happiness above that of their kids welfare?
> 
> I also got the "didn't fight for marriage" line. I still have no idea what it means and really it no longer matters
> 
> I would always feel like she had settled for me. Not just since the affair but always.
> 
> Funnily enough I also had a MIL that thought I was out of my league since I made my own way. For the record I made good money and as the money went up, I had more time . The more successful I was, the more it appeared like I was doing nothing. This irritated MIL no end
> 
> What about if I am sick, disabled and not able to function as I do now. What then? Will she just bu(gg)er off again?
> 
> Now.. I am different . I will not put up with this. I would rather be alone.


----------



## JohnA

"Didn't fight for the marriage" is just another form of DARVO. My didn't try that line, actually she did not say much after trying a few lame reasons. If she had said it to me, I would have said "really, where were you when WE where suppose to be fighting to save this marriage? Did I miss an email? I would have shown up"! 

Since she never offered let her prove you would not have shown!


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei, one more thing to expect...

Since she probably assumes that you do not want her back, and since the OM may have tossed her and slithered off, do not be surprised when you hear she has Man #3 waiting in the wings to step in....some idiot that she has been quietly grooming on the side as a backup plan if all other contingencies fail. 

Or their might be more...


----------



## Hantei

You know, 5-6 weeks ago I'd say with no hesitation something like "Bandit, are you nuts?".

Now I say "hmm, it's not like her but who knows?. Wouldn't bet my life on my own judgment here. Thanks for the warning".

Guess since Feb I grew wiser... like 10 years wiser. 




bandit.45 said:


> Hantei, one more thing to expect...
> 
> Since she probably assumes that you do not want her back, and since the OM may have tossed her and slithered off, do not be surprised when you hear she has Man #3 waiting in the wings to step in....some idiot that she has been quietly grooming on the side as a backup plan if all other contingencies fail.
> 
> Or their might be more...


----------



## JohnA

Or an emergency street free agent. Lot of them floating around of either gender. Stay focused on yourself avd your son for the next year or so. By the way how is making dinner for yourself and your son going?


----------



## Hantei

JohnA said:


> By the way how is making dinner for yourself and your son going?


Guilty. Mostly eating out (healthy stuff though - almost).


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> You know, 5-6 weeks ago I'd say with no hesitation something like "Bandit, are you nuts?".
> 
> Now I say "hmm, it's not like her but who knows?. Wouldn't bet my life on my own judgment here. Thanks for the warning".
> 
> Guess since Feb I grew wiser... like 10 years wiser.


Womens' first instinct is self preservation. It is ingrained in them from 20,000 years of watching the menfolk get eaten by saber tooth cats or dying in wars. They are programmed to survive and plan ahead.


----------



## aine

Hantei said:


> :iagree:
> 
> NB. As soon as I'm in control of my emotions I'm not going to offer R even if it will cost me dearly. At least from where I am now.
> 
> Got a question though. As many have predicted there may be a point where my STBXW offers me R. Personally I'm not sure but so far the accuracy of the majority here is around 90%.
> 
> So if this happens- do I have a moral obligation to accept it or at least try and what could happen if I reject it flat?
> 
> Any cases when this has happened (R rejected)?


Sorry Hantei,

I think this is a wrong move, at least without some stipulations as to what you expect from her

1. she needs to accept her role in all of this and to agree to individual counselling to see why she set out to destroy your marriage
Plus all the usual steps, NC letter, access to all (phones, pc,) etc.
2. she has to agree to MC shortly thereafter

3. you have to tell her there are absolutely no promises

4. set a time frame, 12 months (say), if it does not work then move on

Finally, your WW has not had a 'come to Jesus' moment at all, still seems justified in what she did. There can be no R without remorse, plain and simple and so far I'm not seeing it.
i am concerned for you , if you enter into a false R, it may set you back many many steps.

Have you really thought through why you would do this?


----------



## MJJEAN

So, umm, I have actually sort of been where your wife was with her parent. The difference is that my mother made her disapproval known and then stfu about it, but my father was a bit more...proactive.

When I was married to my first husband, my father would occasionally toss men at my feet. He hated my husband (so did I), with cause, and wanted me to meet a better man, become interested in the idea of a better man, leave the marriage, start dating said better man or a new better man, and remarry.

He would introduce me to men he worked with and the extol their virtues to me and mine to them. It ended up being one of his friends that finally sparked my interest. He'd been a friend of my fathers for years, was only 8 years older than me, and we had great chemistry as well as a good friendship of sorts. I began an affair with him that lasted about 6 months.

Here's the thing. It wasn't parental influence that got me naked and into his bed. It was the fact that I was attracted to him and enjoyed his company. I wanted to have sex with him. Period.

My dad was pissed! He intended us to meet, fall in love, do nothing about it until I was divorced, and then ride off into the sunset. He was legitimately upset that we were in an affair, which was not Dad's intention at all.

In the end, my AP wanted me to leave my ex and move in with him. I wanted to leave my ex, but I wasn't in love with my AP and knew we weren't long term compatible. So, I ended the affair. 

My AP remained a friend of the family, met a lovely woman, married her, raised her 3 kids with her, had 2 kids together (one of which is named after my mother), battled cancer and lost the fight a few years ago.

I ended up having multiple affairs with men I met on my own, left the marriage, married my final AP, have remained faithful to him, raised my 2 kids from my first marriage and one together, and am in a good place.

I told you my sordid tale because I want to make sure you understand 2 things. 

1) The affair is entirely on your wife. Her mother may have thrown them together, but your wife is the one that maintained contact after that meeting, agreed to meet with him in person alone, allowed or even reveled in physical contact with him, and had sex with him. 

She did what she did because she WANTED to. She wanted him and she had him. She's just a bit butthurt that he doesn't want her and now she's regretting what she did. Not because she really regrets her actions, but because she rolled the dice and they came up snake eyes.

2) It's entirely possible her mom is genuinely pissed at her. If her mother is like my father, she intended your wife to see possibilities and to leave the marriage BEFORE getting involved with Mr Not So Wonderful.


----------



## bandit.45

I agree, do not offer reconciliation. If she wants it, she needs to come to you and ask for it. If she doesn't really want it, her inaction will tell you all you need to know.


----------



## bandit.45

Great post MJJean.

By the way, what happened to your ex husband?


----------



## Chaparral

Has your wife apologized to you for what she has done ?


----------



## JohnA

You really are missing out by not making dinner. And by making dinner I am not talking about heat and serve like boiling water for pasta and dumping a jar of store bought sauce in a pot. Did you know eggs cook faster than toasting bread. That making coffee takes longer than toasting threads. That you can by pre-cook sausage or bacon that takes less then three minutes to microwave? 

I can get the coffee going, take out a pan and some plates, spray the pan and put on med/high heat. Pop the bread into the toaster, take out the eggs and pre-cooked microwaveable meat, pop the meat in the micro, crack the eggs put into the skillet, put the eggs and uncooked eat back into the fridge, butter the toasted bread, remove the cook eggs and plate the eggs and meat and pour the just finished brewing coffee. Yes, that quickly. Start this week-end. 

One of my sibs (a dink couple) adopted three toddlers in one shot. He had the ability to use flex time his wife did not. There routine was he was up at 5 Am and at work at by 6 and home at 3. She got the kids up and to school. He did all the meal prep (which e found to his surprise he likes) she cleaned. He found that many culinary schools offer one week, on site intensive training for home cooking. He attended several including the culinary insitute of America. 

He still married but his friends wife's do have a case of "why can't youse". You need to develop new and healthy interests. It is a real bonus if you have skill in the kitchen. On that note so posters will urge you to go younger and hotter. Go for wiser and better. You will be happy and content. (also the sex tends to be much hotter then with younger and hotter).


----------



## bandit.45

I advise go celibate for a couple of years until you get past the anger. Last thing you want is to be telling a potential future Mrs. Hantei how much you despise your ex. That's a huge turnoff to potential girlfriends.


----------



## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> I agree, *do not offer reconciliation.*. If she wants it, she needs to come to you and ask for it. If she doesn't really want it, her inaction will tell you all you need to know.


FWIW, I wouldn't take it if offered either.

I could see reconciling if, on D-Day, she'd shown remorse and displayed an eagerness to not only end the affair but come back to the marriage, but this "Plan B" sh*t?

NEVER.

Hell... it's not like they have young children to raise together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

GusPolinski said:


> FWIW, I wouldn't take it if offered either.
> 
> I could see reconciling if, on D-Day, she'd shown remorse and displayed an eagerness to not only end the affair but come back to the marriage, but this "Plan B" sh*t?
> 
> NEVER.
> 
> Hell... it's not like they have young children to raise together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh I wouldn't either, but it would be an interesting conversation nonetheless.


----------



## Marc878

*Fight for the marriage????*

This has come up more than once.

My 2 cents

Your actions ended the marriage. There's nothing to fight for.


----------



## alte Dame

You could get any behavior from her that's on the spectrum of possibles. We can tell you what is more likely, but nobody can predict with total accuracy.

If she wakes up, she will probably either want to R or she will decide that she has to suck up the fact that she now has a single life without a partner.

If she decides she wants R and you want to try, then be prepared for potential buyer's remorse, on your part, on her part, or on both your parts. Affairs cause so much hurt and damage that you won't be going back into the same relationship. I know you know that in theory, but living it daily will be an enormous challenge for quite a while. You could decide that you don't love and respect her anymore the way you need to; she could decide that unicorn land is where she wants to be.

I would also add that a successful R is a matter of personal definition. Does it mean that you manage to stay together? Does it mean that you are happy? Does it mean that both of you are happy?

Some people do it. (I have a very close friend who seems to be managing it right now, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her happiness.)

For me, a hard part of this whole shebang is that a BS is suddenly without a sense of control over his/her own life. If she offered R, it would restore for you a bit of your sense of control, but it would only be a bit, in my opinion. You really can't count on the outcome.

As I always told my children (and I believe it), you can't guarantee anything in life; you can only do your best to prejudice things in your favor and then hope for the best.

I think a decision to R or not is like that.


----------



## Acoa

Hantei said:


> :iagree:
> 
> NB. As soon as I'm in control of my emotions I'm not going to offer R even if it will cost me dearly. At least from where I am now.
> 
> Got a question though. As many have predicted there may be a point where my STBXW offers me R. Personally I'm not sure but so far the accuracy of the majority here is around 90%.
> 
> So if this happens- do I have a moral obligation to accept it or at least try and what could happen if I reject it flat?
> 
> Any cases when this has happened (R rejected)?


My guess is she won't come directly at you with a request to R. She would have to lose face, and from what I've heard so far, I don't think that is in her. 

She may try a passive aggressive backhanded approach. Where she hints are R, but puts it all back on you. Beware of that one. It's a trap!

Whatever happens, keep in mind, she has something in her that allowed her to cheat and put you on the back burner as her back up plan. If she does want to R, you really have to ask yourself what that is, and is it something she can 'fix'. You can't fix it, because you didn't cause it. That's all on her. All you can do is try to evaluate if she understands it, and if that 'something' that is even manageable. And if it is manageable, is it worth the risk? Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it's true, or that she will follow through with the work she needs to do.


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> :iagree:
> 
> NB. As soon as I'm in control of my emotions I'm not going to offer R even if it will cost me dearly. At least from where I am now.
> 
> Got a question though. As many have predicted there may be a point where my STBXW offers me R. Personally I'm not sure but so far the accuracy of the majority here is around 90%.
> 
> So if this happens- do I have a moral obligation to accept it or at least try and what could happen if I reject it flat?
> 
> Any cases when this has happened (R rejected)?


You absolutely do not have an obligation to try. Absolutely do not.

She gave up all obligations you had to her when she started the affair. Absolutely wrapped them up in yesterday's newspaper and threw them in the trash.

They're gone. 

The only way H you ever offer to even try is if she earns it.

But she won't. She just isn't going to, bro. There is something broken in this one deep down inside, some mixture of arrogance and dispassion and victim hood that will keep this one down for the count. 

For probably years to come.

That's my take. Let her go through this one on her own. Even the recent "health issues" that are her own doing and a cry to remain the victim somehow in all this.

The ask to reconcile will likely come soon. And it will likely come with a request that you let it all go, sweep it under the rug, and be the bad guy in all this. So she can be the victim of it all.

And then within 6 months there will be a new guy.


----------



## Marc878

The long term R. You see many BS just so happy upfront. They won!!!!! But did they???? The WS got a taste of forbidden fruit and it was hot, exciting now he/she is back in the fold so to speak but probably never 100%. An affair changes the whole dynamics going forward. Will they compare what they had versus what they have now?

Long term you'll always have that nagging doubt. They did it once, will they do it again. No way to ever be certain.

You have to live with the fact that what actually went on because you'll never get the full truth and if you did how would you know? Once the deceit and lies start where do they end? 

Some get through it but it depends on the capabilities of both together. It will always be the elephant in the room. Dissipates over time but will never completely go away.

Im sure some get to a point of feeling safe/secure again. It's the getting there that's takes a huge amount of time/effort.

The plus side if there is one is you know the history and characteristics going in.


----------



## JohnA

I am sure at somepoimt you got or will get you where emtionaly closed off. Huh? dinners, trips, flowers daily "I lve you(s)" 

This would be very be very open emotionally with a woman going forward. Yea, my ex step out on me and I felt blindsided. But in hindsight I could have very easily listen and heard, done this, and this (rule of 3). All I can do is learn my lesson and my next wife (she scares you off saying husband, not the other way around.) and hopefully inspire her to want to write a thank you note to ex. You are now "open" although I call it factual. Now the shyt test: ask her how her experience with the ex will help her provide a better marriage for her husband. If you get a blank stare or a sutter, that's the last date. You will need to ruthlessly weed out the losers like your WW going forward. 

What I learned in addition to how to be a better mate, is how to be bold. And that example is bring bold. I find most woman want to tell you (and true for many men) really want you to push them to open up. It is question of how. Life has made them just to timid to open up and show you what an amazing person they are. So many times in life when a person makes a statement like that or asks you a question they are really talking about themselves or asking you to ask them the question they put to them. 

Remember I spoke to hearing? Repeating a answering a question and repeating it back to them often causes the response "he really gets me, he asks all the right questions"! Really is that all? Must be one of those things like 90% of success in life is just showing up prepared thongs.


----------



## MJJEAN

bandit.45 said:


> Great post MJJean.
> 
> By the way, what happened to your ex husband?


In a nutshell, he remarried and had two kids, neither he or his wife work. His parents have been supporting them for years. His parents actually bought him a house, that they pay for, just to get him out of theirs.

Between living in his parents house and them buying him a house, he and his wife lost 2 townhouse apartments his mother rented for him due to keeping the house in filthy condition, which was a lease violation.

He had CPS called because they weren't properly caring for the kids, the kids were removed and taken to foster care for a few days, given to his mother for a few months, and then allowed to go back home.

He and my oldest, DD (who moved down to live with her grandparents for education and stayed to help with FIL during his illness), got into a physical fight a few days after his father died because he was harassing his mother about the life insurance money, she told him she'd already used it to pay his bills to current, he lost his sh!t, and DD defended her grandmother. He was arrested for DV.

ExMIL and DD both say he and his wife cheat on each other and that they have physically violent fights.

The most recent news I got from both DD's and former MIL is that he and his wife have been arrested and charged with felony child neglect. They are on some kind of strict program and if they screw up in any way, their parental rights will be terminated. The children are in foster care where they will remain until the court deems ExH and his wife fit for supervised visitation and the beginning stages of reunification.

Oh, and he owes over $200,000 in child support for two children he had with two women before we met and the daughters he had with me.


----------



## Hantei

Thanks for all the posts, info and support. Below is my "generic" response, I'll then reply to individual posts.

First and foremost my apologies if I have muddied the water. I am NOT going to offer, suggest or push for R, nor if it is offered to me I'm going dictate or demand anything from the (really great) list posted ny @aine. My question was - if I have any moral obligation (to me, to my son, to her) to try it if offered by STBXW, nothing more than that. So, no, I'm not going to make the 1st move here. Not as a childish game ow who blinks 1st (I admit pride is involved) - just because I know and convinced nothing good will come out of this. Mo father told me once to never be that "father who could have achived so much in life but because of you my boy..." to my son, and I beleive false R will push me down that path.

So I agree with @bandit.45:


> If she doesn't really want it, her inaction will tell you all you need to know.


 @Chaparral - yes she did apologize multiple times. In terms of actions following these apologies - I've got what I've got.
@JohnA - cooking is not for me and we share a dozen of hobbies with the kid, but I need to start thinking long term for my son here.
@GusPolinski - you are correct. I don't see any way to be convinced I'm not plan B now - and as for being plan B please see the above. If she ever manages to convince me - then I may cionsider something.


> I could see reconciling if, on D-Day, she'd shown remorse and displayed an eagerness to not only end the affair but come back to the marriage, but this "Plan B" sh*t?


 @Acoa - you are correct and I'm seeing (or at least this is my interpretation) a signs of not wanting to loose face, hints and all. Waiting for me to make the 1st move. I'm not 100% sure but what I see certainly could be interpreted that way.
@marduk - thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
@Marc878 - there will be no winners, the elephant is always be in the room and - assuming the marriage was a 9 score on a 1-10 scale it will never be back to 9. Or at least I'm not seeing how it is possible.


> The long term R. You see many BS just so happy upfront. They won!!!!!


.


----------



## Hantei

Thanks a lot for youir post and concern @aine, I dio value your thoughts.




> I think this is a wrong move, at least without some stipulations as to what you expect from her


As I mentioned, I'm not going to offer R myself - that is what my logic (reinforced by the feedback tells me). Myt emptions may have different views but I'll deal with that when/if the time comes. 



> 1...
> 2...
> 3...
> 4...


If she comes up with the same or similar list on her own accord - this will at leas tell me she means business here. I'll use it as a checkpint if I have to.




> Finally, your WW has not had a 'come to Jesus' moment at all, still seems justified in what she did. There can be no R without remorse, plain and simple and so far I'm not seeing it.
> i am concerned for you , if you enter into a false R, it may set you back many many steps.


Absolutely correct and that is why I'm posting about R here - even while it is not being offered to me (and very likely never will).



Thanks a lot for youir post and concern aine, I dio value your thoughts.




> I think this is a wrong move, at least without some stipulations as to what you expect from her


As I mentioned, I'm not going to offer R myself - that is what my logic (reinforced by the feedback tells me). Myt emptions may have different views but I'll deal with that when/if the time comes. 



> 1...
> 2...
> 3...
> 4...


If she comes up with the same or similar list on her own accord - this will at leas tell me she means business here. I'll use it as a checkpint if I have to.




> Finally, your WW has not had a 'come to Jesus' moment at all, still seems justified in what she did. There can be no R without remorse, plain and simple and so far I'm not seeing it.
> i am concerned for you , if you enter into a false R, it may set you back many many steps.


Absolutely correct and that is why I'm posting about R here - even while it is not being offered to me (and very likely never will).




> Have you really thought through why you would do this?


.

That is exactly what I'm trying to figure out. I'm in no sport of trying to "win her back" as a some sort of trophy .

Thank you.


----------



## Hantei

@MJJEAN - thanks a lot for the openness and relevance of your post. It did not fall on deaf ears trust me. I liked your post(s) to recognise its absolute value to me, not that I enjoy when good people have rough patches in their lives. Glad you are in a good place.

You are 100 and 10% right about my STBXMIL (is there such an acroinym?). I do beleive she did not want my STBXW to have an affair and to ruin her marriage. I know for sure however her intent was not so noble as your father's (based on what I read he was really trying to "save" you. But I'm in no position to comment of course). I'm certain she just wanted her daughter to admit that she (MIL) was right all along and that was it. Perhaps for me to get the message (via STBXW) and to "try harder" to be her (MIL) puppet. Or even perhaps to end the marriage "properly" and a extreme case. I know she is in shock and I know she's blaming everyone (me - 60%, STBXW-30%, SOB 10% I'd guess) but herself. 

Which brings me to your point 1) - its all on my STBXW. She did what she did because she wanted to. I wish it was some coersion, blackmail, manipulation beyond "normal" - but it was not. Logically I understand this - but I can not express how yours (antd others) reminders on the matter do help me to stay on course.

Thanks a lot.


----------



## Hantei

Thanks @alte Dame,

Not a lot of comments from me - not because there's no value (quite the opposite) but because it's so clear and relevant.

Buyers remorse is what I'm worried about. What if I accept R (if offered) but months or years later find out I can't do it anymore. I assume I will be responsible for breaking it and blamed for years of her life wasted. What if STBXW will want R but only as a method of "getting back to normal". I can guarantee I'll be angry, pissed and sarcastic for a while- how long will she cope?

My personal definition of a successful R is we both happy. For me it means our marriage is back to as it was before. I'm not sure how can I fell happy any other way. Day by day I'm starting to feel marriage back to normal is impossible. Should I engage the fight I can't win?




alte Dame said:


> You could get any behavior from her that's on the spectrum of possibles. We can tell you what is more likely, but nobody can predict with total accuracy.
> 
> If she wakes up, she will probably either want to R or she will decide that she has to suck up the fact that she now has a single life without a partner.
> 
> If she decides she wants R and you want to try, then be prepared for potential buyer's remorse, on your part, on her part, or on both your parts. Affairs cause so much hurt and damage that you won't be going back into the same relationship. I know you know that in theory, but living it daily will be an enormous challenge for quite a while. You could decide that you don't love and respect her anymore the way you need to; she could decide that unicorn land is where she wants to be.
> 
> I would also add that a successful R is a matter of personal definition. Does it mean that you manage to stay together? Does it mean that you are happy? Does it mean that both of you are happy?
> 
> Some people do it. (I have a very close friend who seems to be managing it right now, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her happiness.)
> 
> For me, a hard part of this whole shebang is that a BS is suddenly without a sense of control over his/her own life. If she offered R, it would restore for you a bit of your sense of control, but it would only be a bit, in my opinion. You really can't count on the outcome.
> 
> As I always told my children (and I believe it), you can't guarantee anything in life; you can only do your best to prejudice things in your favor and then hope for the best.
> 
> I think a decision to R or not is like that.


----------



## bandit.45

It's good to see you processing all these ideas Hantei. It means that despite the horrible pain you are in, as well as mental agony, you still have a great deal of clarity. Clarity and objectivity are your allies.


----------



## alte Dame

I keep saying this, but I hope you are following the 180. If you successfully find some detachment, you won't even be thinking about being responsible for how her life turns out. (I think it's liberating when we truly realize that we lived just fine before we met them and we'll be fine after it's over. It's hard for a while, but the pain lessens.)


----------



## Hantei

alte Dame said:


> I keep saying this, but I hope you are following the 180. If you successfully find some detachment, you won't even be thinking about being responsible for how her life turns out. (I think it's liberating when we truly realize that we lived just fine before we met them and we'll be fine after it's over. It's hard for a while, but the pain lessens.)


Yes I do follow 180 - almost religiously. Gives me clarity and objectivity @bandit.45 was talking about. And I was never really worried about nit being fine alone.

However so far 180 most affecting my STBXW (I know it's not its purpose but...) - on the surface I am detached and this freaks her out. Claims she never expected me to turn so "professional" so quickly and that she'd less surprised and wprried if I would start hating her and punching walls.

Internally though I'm not there yet and you've pointed it out right - I do worry and care and think "what if". So it's fake it till you make it. Hope 180 will bring me there


----------



## Marc878

You're going to have high anxiety it's normal. Because the future is unknown. The unknown is always a scary proposition.

Even when you're in a bad situation stepping into the unknown makes you anxious because you are familiar with where you are currently.

I've had to do this several times. Even though I've always managed to come out in a better place getting there was hell.


----------



## JohnA

The truth is very few marriages survive once they reach the point yours did. A few marriages the sudden shock caused the 180, the quick response with legal documents signed with a note please sign here does cause a moment of reality. When combined with ruthless exposure that causes the OM or OW to bail causes the WS to stop and see what their adultery has done, suddenly being alone causes a panic occur. It was suggested very earlier on that this would occur once your son came home and sure enough the reality bus hit her head on. But this is beside the point. 

The 180 is to help the BS to separate their emotions from their intellect. The exposure is to drive the other person out of your divorce not a marriage that is dead. Hantei, that desire to keep the OM out of your sons life, you have no idea of how bad that could have been if he had first been in your divorce then in your sons life. None. That was what needed to be done first and you did. 

But as stated earlier, sometime a window opens for a moment that offers hope for reconciliation. Then the question is what type. Is is it a false reconciliation or a real one. So until every dot is dotted and every T crossed so the final decree is set in stone and your plans for a post divorce life established stay focused, polite, diplomatic, and in the 180 mode. It appears this is where you are either there or will be there shortly. That leaves a good nine months to play what if mind games.


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> Yes I do follow 180 - almost religiously. Gives me clarity and objectivity @bandit.45 was talking about. And I was never really worried about nit being fine alone.
> 
> However so far 180 most affecting my STBXW (I know it's not its purpose but...) - on the surface I am detached and this freaks her out. Claims she never expected me to turn so "professional" so quickly and that she'd less surprised and wprried if I would start hating her and punching walls.
> 
> Internally though I'm not there yet and you've pointed it out right - I do worry and care and think "what if". So it's fake it till you make it. Hope 180 will bring me there




Because in her messed up mind she is such a catch that of course you would go crazy trying to retain her.

Because she thinks she is better than you. She is selfish, as most wayward are.

For her sake I hope that she sees the light. Even if she were not to reconcile what she has to give up of herself to reconcile is what will make her a person with a base level of humanity. We're all the damn same is this big secret that apparently takes some people a lifetime to learn, if ever.


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> Yes I do follow 180 - almost religiously. Gives me clarity and objectivity @bandit.45 was talking about. And I was never really worried about nit being fine alone.
> 
> However so far 180 most affecting my STBXW (I know it's not its purpose but...) - on the surface I am detached and this freaks her out. Claims she never expected me to turn so "professional" so quickly and that she'd less surprised and wprried if I would start hating her and punching walls.
> 
> Internally though I'm not there yet and you've pointed it out right - I do worry and care and think "what if". So it's fake it till you make it. Hope 180 will bring me there




With regards to the anxiety look at it this way 

- an unknown life with a cheating wife who may drag all of you down with her. Invites chaos into their lives. 

- a calm, focused man who demands the best out of life for him and his child. If he wants something , within reason, there is nothing that he can't do without a little time, hard work and dedication.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> Yes I do follow 180 - almost religiously. Gives me clarity and objectivity @bandit.45 was talking about. And I was never really worried about nit being fine alone.
> 
> However so far 180 most affecting my STBXW (I know it's not its purpose but...) - on the surface I am detached and this freaks her out. Claims she never expected me to turn so "professional" so quickly and that she'd less surprised and wprried if I would start hating her and punching walls.
> 
> Internally though I'm not there yet and you've pointed it out right - I do worry and care and think "what if". So it's fake it till you make it. Hope 180 will bring me there


Control is what all WSs crave. And when they are feeling as if they are losing control, then they freak. The cool thing about the 180 is that it gives some control back to the BS. 

Your wife's comment about your detachment shows me that she is not remorseful one bit. She's comes across as a very cold person. Even though you may not feel that way about her, that is what comes across in your descriptions of her and the things she says. 

You have said she has told you many times she was sorry. Well...I rear ended a guy a few months back and I probably told him I was sorry four or five times as we were exchanging insurance. Does that make me remorseful? No. I haven't given it a second thought since then.


----------



## Chaparral

Hantei said:


> Yes I do follow 180 - almost religiously. Gives me clarity and objectivity @bandit.45 was talking about. And I was never really worried about nit being fine alone.
> 
> However so far 180 most affecting my STBXW (I know it's not its purpose but...) - on the surface I am detached and this freaks her out. Claims she never expected me to turn so "professional" so quickly and that she'd less surprised and wprried if I would start hating her and punching walls.
> 
> Internally though I'm not there yet and you've pointed it out right - I do worry and care and think "what if". So it's fake it till you make it. Hope 180 will bring me there


Tell her you're doing the best you can after finding out the woman you loved simply isn't the person you always thought she was. Tell her you had no idea she was capable of stabbing you and your son in the back......... not in a million years.


----------



## Chaparral

bandit.45 said:


> Control is what all WSs crave. And when they are feeling as if they are losing control, then they freak. The cool thing about the 180 is that it gives some control back to the BS.
> 
> Your wife's comment about your detachment shows me that she is not remorseful one bit. She's comes across as a very cold person. Even though you may not feel that way about her, that is what comes across in your descriptions of her and the things she says.
> 
> You have said she has told you many times she was sorry. Well...I rear ended a guy a few months back and I probably told him I was sorry four or five times as we were exchanging insurance. Does that make me remorseful? No. I haven't given it a second thought since then.


I'm getting the impression the apple didn't fall far from the tree. It just took awhile to ripen. Have you told her she's just like her mother.............. just for the hell of it?


----------



## MJJEAN

Hantei said:


> @MJJEAN - thanks a lot for the openness and relevance of your post. It did not fall on deaf ears trust me. I liked your post(s) to recognise its absolute value to me, not that I enjoy when good people have rough patches in their lives. Glad you are in a good place.
> 
> You are 100 and 10% right about my STBXMIL (is there such an acroinym?). I do beleive she did not want my STBXW to have an affair and to ruin her marriage. I know for sure however her intent was not so noble as your father's (based on what I read he was really trying to "save" you. But I'm in no position to comment of course). I'm certain she just wanted her daughter to admit that she (MIL) was right all along and that was it. Perhaps for me to get the message (via STBXW) and to "try harder" to be her (MIL) puppet. Or even perhaps to end the marriage "properly" and a extreme case. I know she is in shock and I know she's blaming everyone (me - 60%, STBXW-30%, SOB 10% I'd guess) but herself.
> 
> Which brings me to your point 1) - its all on my STBXW. She did what she did because she wanted to. I wish it was some coersion, blackmail, manipulation beyond "normal" - but it was not. Logically I understand this - but I can not express how yours (antd others) reminders on the matter do help me to stay on course.
> 
> Thanks a lot.


You're welcome. I understand about the likes. Sometimes, I like a post I am mentioned in to let the poster know I read it, sometimes because I just don't know what to say, and sometimes because I actually like it!

My exH and I met when I was in my teens. It was a casual FWB thing that went wrong when I got pregnant accidentally. I was on the Pill, but a course of antibiotics for a lung infection negated it's effects. So, I basically married a guy I didn't even really like to "do the right thing". He was a POS, my dad (and everyone else) knew it, and I do think he really was trying to save me.

However, if I had left the marriage, dated and then married his friend/my AP, don't think for a minute he wouldn't have been going on and on about how right he was and what a good choice he made for me!

And, really, that could have been your STBXMIL's motivation, too. Maybe she legitimately thought that her daughter was unhappy and was (badly) trying to help her. You really don't know what your STBXW told her mother. 

We had one guy on here or LS, can't remember which, who had a wife that talked so much trash about him to her mother it was ridiculous. He found out because he thought she was cheating. He VAR'd her car and found out that she not only talks mad trash about him, but most of it was straight out lies or partial truths. Of course, the MIL was encouraging her daughter to leave based on those lies and half truths.

Who knows? Maybe something similar happened between your STBX and her mom.



Hantei said:


> Buyers remorse is what I'm worried about. What if I accept R (if offered) but months or years later find out I can't do it anymore. I assume I will be responsible for breaking it and blamed for years of her life wasted. What if STBXW will want R but only as a method of "getting back to normal". I can guarantee I'll be angry, pissed and sarcastic for a while- how long will she cope?
> 
> My personal definition of a successful R is we both happy. For me it means our marriage is back to as it was before. I'm not sure how can I fell happy any other way. Day by day I'm starting to feel marriage back to normal is impossible. Should I engage the fight I can't win?


First, those are very valid fears. Reconciling after something like this (the affair and how she's reacted) is not very likely to be successful. One of life's nastier truths is that sometimes so much damage is done to a relationship that there is no way to repair it.

Second, IF your STBX were to show true remorse and you were to reconcile, you do NOT want to return to "normal". You do NOT want your marriage to be as it was before.

The marriage you had before is dead. Bury it. You can't unknow. What both of you have been experiencing has changed you as people, even if just in small or subtle ways. The trust and innocence is gone forever.

Not to mention that there was something wrong before the adultery. If you could magically go back to the old normal, you'd be going back to the marriage she thought was worth risking for a fling.

And that is something else you have to really understand. I was a serial cheater. I've been there. It's hard on the internet to fully explain other than to say that each and every step of each and every affair I was aware what I was risking. I might not have cared at the moment, but I was aware.

I believe that there is a "fog" of sorts that clouds our thinking when in a new relationship. However, I do NOT believe that is any kind of excuse. There is a difference between being jacked up on hormones and a lobotomy.

When in the fog, you still know right from wrong. You're still aware of the risks involved. Some think they'll never get caught, so no harm, no foul. Others think the risk is worth it. Still more think their BS would never leave, so they can get away with it. But all know what they're risking and have chosen to roll the dice.

We humans tend to guard what we value most. We risk what we value less. The fact that she was willing to take that risk, to roll the dice, tells you that she valued your marriage less than whatever she was getting from the affair.



Marc878 said:


> You're going to have high anxiety it's normal. Because the future is unknown. The unknown is always a scary proposition.
> 
> Even when you're in a bad situation stepping into the unknown makes you anxious because you are familiar with where you are currently.
> 
> I've had to do this several times. Even though I've always managed to come out in a better place getting there was hell.


QFT!

I am a creature of habit and routine. The unknown terrifies me. Like, call the doc for anxiety meds terrifies. 

I am positive that I stayed in my disastrous sham of a first marriage precisely because leaving with two young children and going into the unknown was much more terrifying than staying. Better the devil you know and all that.

My friend used to call it "comfortable misery". It was miserable, on so many levels, but it was familiar. I knew what to expect even if it made me feel like I was dying inside.

The truth was that staying for fear of the unknown was a mistake. Turned out, the unknown was so much better than staying in a comfortably miserable marriage.


----------



## MJJEAN

bandit.45 said:


> Your wife's comment about your detachment shows me that she is not remorseful one bit. She's comes across as a very cold person. Even though you may not feel that way about her, that is what comes across in your descriptions of her and the things she says.
> 
> You have said she has told you many times she was sorry. Well...I rear ended a guy a few months back and I probably told him I was sorry four or five times as we were exchanging insurance. Does that make me remorseful? No. I haven't given it a second thought since then.


By detaching, you're taking away her Plan B. She probably thought Plan A would work, if it failed she always had Plan B, and she never really fleshed out Plan C because she was certain either Plan A or Plan B would be a success.

I read something on FB I loved.

"Pick up a plate and drop it on the floor.

- Ok, done.

Did it break?

- Yes.

Now say sorry to it.

- Sorry.

Did it go back to the way it was before?

- No.

Now do you understand?"


----------



## bandit.45

Good stuff M.J. Jean. I learn a lot from your candor.

At risk of thread jacking, can I ask a couple questions? 

1) Was it hard to forgive yourself for the serial cheating...even though your ex was a worthless husband? Despite that, you must have experienced a lot of shame for your actions. 

2) What process did you go through to build new boundaries and skills so as not to make the same mistakes in your current marriage?


----------



## sparrow555

Honestly, the delivery sounds condescending more than anything.


----------



## Decorum

Hantei,

Does you son understand the role your rstbxmil played in the situation? I.e.never liked you, tried to break you up with sob, and re-intorduced your ww to a man who wanted to sleep with her?

Do you think you will ever have that conversation with your rstbxmil? (r= rotten) 

Is your father in law a somewhat weak enabler?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

I'm not a "turn the other cheek" kinda guy, so I'd be planning on taking out a full-page ad in the local paper thanking my ex mother in law for finding a boyfriend for her married daughter -- because now you're rid of them both!

With a picture of them both smiling, and one of the boyfriend just for fun.

I mean after the divorce is finalized, of course.

But I'm an ******* and you seem to not be.


----------



## SunCMars

So many great posts here!

Hantei, Handtied...your hands are now untied. Your mind though, is not unbound or clear; it is untidy, reeling with images of betrayal.

Do not reconcile with this women. Let me make my case. 

There are instances were WS's can be forgiven and permitted to return to the family. Yours is not in that category, IMO.

You gave her 20 of the best years of your life. In 20 days she threw that all away. My God, how is it possible for a loving spouse to morph so quickly. She likely was already gone. 

You and your son meant nothing to her. Call it the fog or call it the ultimate flog. A human can be whipped, which hurts like hell, or he can be scourged, the flesh torn off after each lash. The is an exaggeration in the physical sense, less so in your mind.

You were cast aside for what...for being an emotional choker for the last two years, WTF. Nice of her to tell you that after she jumps the bones of a snake-oil salesman. And only because she got caught by the voicemail.

Two weeks prior to D-Day you had a great time with her, while she was in the fog.....not. No, she was clear-eyed enough to smoke your fish. 

Your sperm and POSOM's sperm were likely swimming in the same inland canal during that period.

That timeline road map of hers has Gaslights for llumination. She said the affair started in January 2016, mere weeks before D-Day. Bullsh!t, This is what she uttered her in her defense and in her falsetto voice and delivered by her quivering, lying lips.

Another Gaslight Morsel spewed by WW------> My mother put me up to this. Others on TAM caught this also. Yes, POS-MIL did...20 years ago. As you mentioned, MIL is not happy with her! Meaning? She did not want her daughter to go about dumping the husband in this manner. And likely, not at all, this late in the game. Blame shifting at its finest.

She went from being a loyal wife to a cheater in what? ~20 days.....ah, not. If this were true, her "bare" trap had to be set on a pubic-hair trigger. I suspect she had at least an EA with POSOM long before D-Day. 

Based on her pre-D-day behavior, she compartmentalized this backhanded affair. Again, WW was cool about it, was she not? You had no inkling. This is my point. She was too cool prior to D-Day. Unlike most women. She acted like a women who has been doing this for quit a while.

She is a Mirage that disappeared when the Sun went down on her and the fog rolled in. She is two dimensional, not having depth...depth of character.

She is not worth keeping. 

WW is 39, you are 41? Start over but not together.


----------



## MJJEAN

bandit.45 said:


> Good stuff M.J. Jean. I learn a lot from your candor.
> 
> At risk of thread jacking, can I ask a couple questions?
> 
> 1) Was it hard to forgive yourself for the serial cheating...even though your ex was a worthless husband? Despite that, you must have experienced a lot of shame for your actions.
> 
> 2) What process did you go through to build new boundaries and skills so as not to make the same mistakes in your current marriage?


To me, the marriage was never real. It was speaking words required by law and society to enter into a legal and social contract so that my kid wouldn't be illegitimate and would have her two biological parents in the home for her most formative years. 

Considering the type of "man" exH was then and still is, I'd be lying if I said I felt bad about it all with the exception of the fact that my actions mocked the institution of marriage. 

We mostly functioned like hostile roommates 70% of the time and casual friends 30% of the time when there was a social reason to keep the peace. The first time I ever heard the word loathe used in conversation was when someone at a gathering was explaining my relationship with my exH to a new person to our social circle.

Another reason I didn't feel shame or guilt was because I didn't sneak around or hide my actions. I was honest with my friends, family, and the ex about what I was doing and, most of the time, who with.

I didn't do a darn thing re: boundaries or any other kind of work. I met DH, it was love at first sight, a few weeks after we started dating I told exH the sham was over, and I've belonged lock, stock, and barrel to DH ever since. Sure, there have been rough times. But I've never been tempted because DH is just too precious to me to ever risk. And, really, he's the best conversation, sex, and emotional connection I've ever imagined, much less experienced. Random Dude can't compare to that.


----------



## Hantei

I have to think a lot about this. Just need to think about how to put my follow up questions in writing. What's LS if I may ask?

To clarify the cituation with STBXW and MIL. STBXW used to take our/my side in (rare) conflicts we had and was talking our marriage up. That is what I believe to trigger MIL to hook her up with this guy. Because she has to be right don't you see?
So I do not think there was a lot of trash talking me (although can't rule it out).

Another matter is that I think time wise it clicked with some sort of issues STBXW might be experiencing at that time (never communicated to me) .. and the fortress fell.

This is my working model, could be wrong. 


Thank you very much.




MJJEAN said:


> You're welcome. I understand about the likes. Sometimes, I like a post I am mentioned in to let the poster know I read it, sometimes because I just don't know what to say, and sometimes because I actually like it!
> 
> My exH and I met when I was in my teens. It was a casual FWB thing that went wrong when I got pregnant accidentally. I was on the Pill, but a course of antibiotics for a lung infection negated it's effects. So, I basically married a guy I didn't even really like to "do the right thing". He was a POS, my dad (and everyone else) knew it, and I do think he really was trying to save me.
> 
> However, if I had left the marriage, dated and then married his friend/my AP, don't think for a minute he wouldn't have been going on and on about how right he was and what a good choice he made for me!
> 
> And, really, that could have been your STBXMIL's motivation, too. Maybe she legitimately thought that her daughter was unhappy and was (badly) trying to help her. You really don't know what your STBXW told her mother.
> 
> We had one guy on here or LS, can't remember which, who had a wife that talked so much trash about him to her mother it was ridiculous. He found out because he thought she was cheating. He VAR'd her car and found out that she not only talks mad trash about him, but most of it was straight out lies or partial truths. Of course, the MIL was encouraging her daughter to leave based on those lies and half truths.
> 
> Who knows? Maybe something similar happened between your STBX and her mom.
> 
> 
> 
> First, those are very valid fears. Reconciling after something like this (the affair and how she's reacted) is not very likely to be successful. One of life's nastier truths is that sometimes so much damage is done to a relationship that there is no way to repair it.
> 
> Second, IF your STBX were to show true remorse and you were to reconcile, you do NOT want to return to "normal". You do NOT want your marriage to be as it was before.
> 
> The marriage you had before is dead. Bury it. You can't unknow. What both of you have been experiencing has changed you as people, even if just in small or subtle ways. The trust and innocence is gone forever.
> 
> Not to mention that there was something wrong before the adultery. If you could magically go back to the old normal, you'd be going back to the marriage she thought was worth risking for a fling.
> 
> And that is something else you have to really understand. I was a serial cheater. I've been there. It's hard on the internet to fully explain other than to say that each and every step of each and every affair I was aware what I was risking. I might not have cared at the moment, but I was aware.
> 
> I believe that there is a "fog" of sorts that clouds our thinking when in a new relationship. However, I do NOT believe that is any kind of excuse. There is a difference between being jacked up on hormones and a lobotomy.
> 
> When in the fog, you still know right from wrong. You're still aware of the risks involved. Some think they'll never get caught, so no harm, no foul. Others think the risk is worth it. Still more think their BS would never leave, so they can get away with it. But all know what they're risking and have chosen to roll the dice.
> 
> We humans tend to guard what we value most. We risk what we value less. The fact that she was willing to take that risk, to roll the dice, tells you that she valued your marriage less than whatever she was getting from the affair.
> 
> 
> 
> QFT!
> 
> I am a creature of habit and routine. The unknown terrifies me. Like, call the doc for anxiety meds terrifies.
> 
> I am positive that I stayed in my disastrous sham of a first marriage precisely because leaving with two young children and going into the unknown was much more terrifying than staying. Better the devil you know and all that.
> 
> My friend used to call it "comfortable misery". It was miserable, on so many levels, but it was familiar. I knew what to expect even if it made me feel like I was dying inside.
> 
> The truth was that staying for fear of the unknown was a mistake. Turned out, the unknown was so much better than staying in a comfortably miserable marriage.


----------



## GusPolinski

@Hantei, LS = "Loyal Spouse"

Also commonly called "BS" or "Betrayed Spouse".


----------



## Marduk

Why are you not flaming mad?


----------



## 3putt

GusPolinski said:


> @Hantei, LS = "Loyal Spouse"
> 
> Also commonly called "BS" or "Betrayed Spouse".


I think in MJJ's context it's Loveshack.


----------



## GusPolinski

3putt said:


> I think in MJJ's context it's Loveshack.


Oh.

Derp.


----------



## Hantei

@marduk and @Chaparral, 

I am flaming mad. I also have about a 1000 of names I want to call her as well as spiteful and vengeful remarks to her.


The thing is- my understanding of 180 is that I need to be business like - formal and cold but polite. Am I wrong in my interpretation?
That's what I'm doing- you see I'm that sort of person who follows the advice once I decide that's a right thing to do.

I'm not a f^^$$ng turn the other check do gooder. Very opposite. Actually that was the reason for my STBXW remark that she's shocked I turned "professional" on her not being vengeful and spiteful (mind you in 20 plus years I've never been like that with her - had no reason to).

In terms of my posts here- ok, I AM mad. I work out like crazy in order not to a how it to my son and STBXW (180). Now when financial and legal matters are almost in order I'm beginning to think that's SOB'S turn now to face the music.

Does that count; Sorry, not all people express anger by drumming their chests and making empty statements.




marduk said:


> Why are you not flaming mad?


----------



## Hantei

sparrow555 said:


> Honestly, the delivery sounds condescending more than anything.


Not sure what does that mean?


----------



## MJJEAN

Hantei said:


> I have to think a lot about this. Just need to think about how to put my follow up questions in writing. What's LS if I may ask?
> 
> To clarify the cituation with STBXW and MIL. STBXW used to take our/my side in (rare) conflicts we had and was talking our marriage up. That is what I believe to trigger MIL to hook her up with this guy. Because she has to be right don't you see?
> So I do not think there was a lot of trash talking me (although can't rule it out).
> 
> Another matter is that I think time wise it clicked with some sort of issues STBXW might be experiencing at that time (never communicated to me) .. and the fortress fell.
> 
> This is my working model, could be wrong.
> 
> 
> Thank you very much.


LoveShack is the LS I was referring to 
@GusPolinski, thanks for the laugh! Momentary brain lag or did you not know about LS?

Hmm, maybe STBXMIL meant for your STBX to see what she missed out on and nothing more. That way, her daughter would be safely married to you_ and _have to admit Mom was right. We'll likely never know.


----------



## Hantei

MJJEAN said:


> Hmm, maybe STBXMIL meant for your STBX to see what she missed out on and nothing more. That way, her daughter would be safely married to you_ and _have to admit Mom was right. We'll likely never know.


I think that is very accurate. At least in want to think that.


----------



## GusPolinski

MJJEAN said:


> @GusPolinski, thanks for the laugh! Momentary brain lag or did you not know about LS?


It was the former.

Unfortunately, I am all too aware of the cesspool that is Loveshack.


----------



## 86857

Hantei said:


> @marduk and @Chaparral,
> 
> I am flaming mad. I also have about a 1000 of names I want to call her as well as spiteful and vengeful remarks to her.
> 
> 
> The thing is- my understanding of 180 is that I need to be business like - formal and cold but polite. Am I wrong in my interpretation?
> That's what I'm doing- you see I'm that sort of person who follows the advice once I decide that's a right thing to do.
> 
> I'm not a f^^$$ng turn the other check do gooder. Very opposite. Actually that was the reason for my STBXW remark that she's shocked I turned "professional" on her not being vengeful and spiteful (mind you in 20 plus years I've never been like that with her - had no reason to).
> 
> In terms of my posts here- ok, I AM mad. I work out like crazy in order not to a how it to my son and STBXW (180). Now when financial and legal matters are almost in order I'm beginning to think that's SOB'S turn now to face the music.
> 
> Does that count; Sorry, not all people express anger by drumming their chests and making empty statements.


Hantei, you are doing a perfect 180. . . by the book, not many can or do cos it's damn hard. I have said that to you before.

I, for one have seen your anger, from the beginning. But you have put your nose to the grindstone, held it all in for your son and the 180 for STBXW which is advocated over and over again on TAM and dealt with everything that needs to be dealt with in this situation. And I bet you find yourself when driving or walking down the street swearing under your breath. I did & still do while smiling at the world at large. 

I can't recall reading about any BS on here who got the financials & legals sorted, in a matter of weeks after D-day. It's really important no matter whether there's R or not, to show WS you are not a walkover. And that shows her loud & clear. And yet, you managed that too in the face of your anger. 

So yes, I know how angry you feel and it jumps off these pages to me. And I know only too well what it feels like.

I bet you'd like a few hairy, tattooed blokes to pay SOB a visit. All they'd have to do is stand there & ask him politely when he was leaving town. Would be fun to watch heh heh! I'll leave you with that pleasant thought.


----------



## Marc878

GusPolinski said:


> It was the former.
> 
> Unfortunately, I am all too aware of the cesspool that is Loveshack.


What??? That's heresy!!!!

I lurve the wayward forum. I've only been banned 4 times or was it 5?

You really need to comment there. Let me know when. I want to read it before it gets deleted.


----------



## Marc878

[Hmm, maybe STBXMIL meant for your STBX to see what she missed out on and nothing more. That way, her daughter would be safely married to you and have to admit Mom was right. We'll likely never know.]



Hantei said:


> I think that is very accurate. At least in want to think that.


I would bet this is accurate. Unless she's a total moron. The plan backfired though and all that upperclass breeding went down the tubes.


----------



## Hantei

> Hantei, you are doing a perfect 180. . . by the book, not many can or do cos it's damn hard. I have said that to you before.


You are right that is hard. I'm just not posting much about it. Did it once when I was 5 minutes away from breaking it - and it (posting) did help.



> I, for one have seen your anger, from the beginning. But you have put your nose to the grindstone, held it all in for your son and the 180 for STBXW which is advocated over and over again on TAM and dealt with everything that needs to be dealt with in this situation. And I bet you find yourself when driving or walking down the street swearing under your breath. I did & still do while smiling at the world at large.
> 
> ...
> So yes, I know how angry you feel and it jumps off these pages to me. And I know only too well what it feels like.


Correct, a lot of people here seems to read me like an open book. Saves me from typing  I am sorry you have been through these issues yourself, no one deserves that. Applies to pretty much any poster to my thread as well.



> I can't recall reading about any BS on here who got the financials & legals sorted, in a matter of weeks after D-day. It's really important no matter whether there's R or not, to show WS you are not a walkover. And that shows her loud & clear. And yet, you managed that too in the face of your anger.


Appreciate the positive reinforcement however for the sake of clarity: In Australia we can apply for divorce under one year of separation, so whatever I have done in that legal $ financial department is just enough for the separation countdown to start, it's far from over but I have the time now. The fact that my STBXW suddenly discovered she can't afford the $600+ AUD bill for my son's clothing is a perfect illusrtation of the mess we're in. 



> I bet you'd like a few hairy, tattooed blokes to pay SOB a visit. All they'd have to do is stand there & ask him politely when he was leaving town. Would be fun to watch heh heh! I'll leave you with that pleasant thought.


Now this is one of my few genuine laughs for the last couple of weeks. How should I say that... I'm not hairy and have only one tatoo (on my shoulder) but those who know me personally know I can do physical (my nickname is a hint). So I don't need a 3rd party to pay him a visit. And - as I mentioned before - I'm beginning to entertain an idea of very pilit and legal face to face discussion with him.


----------



## Marc878

{The fact that my STBXW suddenly discovered she can't afford the $600+ AUD bill for my son's clothing is a perfect illusrtation of the mess we're in.}

WTH!!!! All that upper class breeding and she can't do math????

Tell her call SOB or MIL you aren't her problem anymore. She's tryin to impress the kid with material things probably to make up for her recent behavior.


----------



## Marc878

Does Australia have the waiver of the year for infidelity?

If it does tell her let's use that and you can be free much sooner to pursue her other interests.


----------



## tech-novelist

Hantei said:


> Once again- as if you were in the same room. I feel like I'm virtually related to a dozen of strangers here :nerd:
> 
> She is not like that - e.g. turning tears on when needed- quite the opposite if you ask me (of course one would say she is also not the like to cheat. I'm finding a strange consolation she thought it's live even if it was lust as you put it - not some drunken F%=÷ck-and-forget ONS). So I'd say that combined with the way she looks this was not a show. Apparently when she asked for a leave her boss didn't have to ask why.
> 
> I think feeling used is the right word. Doesn't mean she's over him but... let me try to answer that without TMI: her relatives got worried when she started to exhibit symptoms consistent with "being used". They started to dig and she went off rails. Can you read between lines?
> 
> All in all yyour impression is not wrong and I intend to go on with 180 and all... which is easier to do if it gets validated and supported, that's why I post so much. Is there a whimper icon here?


Well, there's this: :crying:


----------



## GusPolinski

Marc878 said:


> What??? That's heresy!!!!
> 
> I lurve the wayward forum. I've only been banned 4 times or was it 5?
> 
> You really need to comment there. Let me know when. I want to read it before it gets deleted.


Nah. Better things to do w/ my time.


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> @marduk and @Chaparral,
> 
> I am flaming mad. I also have about a 1000 of names I want to call her as well as spiteful and vengeful remarks to her.
> 
> 
> The thing is- my understanding of 180 is that I need to be business like - formal and cold but polite. Am I wrong in my interpretation?
> That's what I'm doing- you see I'm that sort of person who follows the advice once I decide that's a right thing to do.
> 
> I'm not a f^^$$ng turn the other check do gooder. Very opposite. Actually that was the reason for my STBXW remark that she's shocked I turned "professional" on her not being vengeful and spiteful (mind you in 20 plus years I've never been like that with her - had no reason to).
> 
> In terms of my posts here- ok, I AM mad. I work out like crazy in order not to a how it to my son and STBXW (180). Now when financial and legal matters are almost in order I'm beginning to think that's SOB'S turn now to face the music.
> 
> Does that count; Sorry, not all people express anger by drumming their chests and making empty statements.


Nothing in the 180 says you can't be angry.

Just not to her.

Let it out, man. You're not Spock. Here at least.

Anger is a signpost that things need to change. And dammit things need to change for you.


----------



## Marc878

the 180 is designed for you to detach from your current wife and move on to your next life. Not for getting your wife back. Make sure you understand this.

However, nothing is written in stone. You didn't necessarily take a monks vow of silence. If the opportunity arises where you really need to make a point I would not hesitate to speak my mind. Then go right back to the 180. I think there are instances where everyone needs a good dose of reality.

Example: one of the posters here contacted me on an issue with the stbxw constantly wanting to be "friends".

You'll get that too btw. 

So he wrote her a letter explaining why he couldn't in very plain English ending with he couldn't stand to look at her. End of story and done.


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> Not sure what does that mean?


I was referring to another comment about the plate breaking. Looks I forgot to quote it.


----------



## Chaparral

Where is your wife staying? How often are you seeing her?


----------



## Hantei

marduk said:


> Nothing in the 180 says you can't be angry.
> 
> Just not to her.
> 
> Let it out, man. You're not Spock. Here at least.
> 
> Anger is a signpost that things need to change. And dammit things need to change for you.


OK. Grrrrrrr! Waaagh!

Don't worry, changes are coming. 

Seriously- you are correct, I'm just not showing it.


----------



## Hantei

sparrow555 said:


> I was referring to another comment about the plate breaking. Looks I forgot to quote it.


Thanks for clarification . I liked the comment though.


----------



## Hantei

Chaparral said:


> Where is your wife staying? How often are you seeing her?


At her parents. ATM at least. Almost every weekday when she's spending time with son.


----------



## Chaparral

Sounds like she's coming home everyday to "see her son." I would ask her to make other arrangements. Tell her you're separated waiting to divorce and she needs to move on. If she gives you the you're not fighting for the marriage speech, tell her she fired you and the ball is in her court.


----------



## Chaparral

Hantei said:


> At her parents. ATM at least. Almost every weekday when she's spending time with son.


How is your son taking this? She's stringing him along too.


----------



## bankshot1993

Chaparral said:


> Sounds like she's coming home everyday to "see her son." I would ask her to make other arrangements. Tell her you're separated waiting to divorce and she needs to move on. If she gives you the you're not fighting for the marriage speech, tell her she fired you and the ball is in her court.


This is very good advice H.

I said before that being the old softie that I am, I'm hoping for a happy ending and I sort of hope this includes R. I say this because you speak so highly of the twenty years that lead up to this and how happy you were and I can imagine that anybody would want to return to those happier times. So yes, for your sake I wish there was some way to restore you back to those happy days when all was right in your world. I know the damage done, and I've re-read the entire thread three times now to let everything sink in. I'm getting a really good feel for why it is so unlikely and have picked up on so many things that I overlooked or didn't grasp in the first reading. I understand where she went wrong if R was ever to be considered and why you feel it isn't on the table, frankly I would be of the same mind.

This is why the advice is so good. She needs to start getting a sense of what she has thrown away. Allowing her to spend every evening in the marital home with the family is still affording her to hold on to a shred of normalcy. Normalcy that should be taken from her with a splash in the face of reality.

You live somewhere else now, you chose a different life with a different partner so go lie in your bed. You don't get the benefits of hanging around here and pretending you've done nothing wrong. You threw that privilege away for a life with somebody else. The benefit of hanging around here and spending time in my presence is generously given to those that show me respect and deserve my time and energy, not people that so willing discard my feelings and do so much damage and destruction to me and my son.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Hantei, 

Some threads become a reference point that posters refer newbies to as an example to follow, your's will be one I will use in the future. The biggest mistake a person who experienced what we have is moving out of the house. If there where a list on commandments THOU SHALL NOT LEAVE THE FAMILY HOME THE WS LEAVES ! Would be the first and most important. 

As to not showing her your anger: hell yea don't show her. She gets nothing from you until ever T is crossed. A part of a WS world view is that the BS needs to suffer and mourn the loss of the BS. I remember my mother hissing at me "she gets nothing from you, especially your pain". Shortly before she moved out she tried to poke me with a I guess you really don't care statement. My responses was cold and Spock like;

"got a check list of things you want me to suffer" ? "lets see can't sleep at night because I feel like I am slowly being lowered into a vat of body acid - check that one off. 

"waves of pain watching you go out the front door to hook up with your F buddy" check that box too. Then I nailed her with: "pretty much check of every box and than some when Bob (her LTR live in boyfriend) you found in your bed with your best friend". "So I guess now you know what it is like to be a winner". She didn't move out for another month but she did leave me alone. 

In any event could you write a post on what you think might have happened if you moved out and what your WS is gong though emotionally by not being in the house. Bye the way you are not eating anything she makes are you?


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> WTH!!!! All that upper class breeding and she can't do math????
> 
> Tell her call SOB or MIL you aren't her problem anymore. She's tryin to impress the kid with material things probably to make up for her recent behavior.



Not a matter of math Marc, more like a new level of normalcy guys are talking about later on. It has never been an issue before - we have never been excessive spenders but I don't recall when was the last time we were in a "can't afford that" situation. So they were shopping as usual but then she's realised the bill (from a single outlet) is too much for her on her own. 

I picked it up happily- not going to put my son in that situation, he's been damaged enough already.


----------



## Marc878

Do you think she is trying to compensate to make up for what she's done?????

Remember she needs to understand you are not her fallback anymore.

No More Mr Nice Guy would have told her she needs to figure it out.

I understand watching out for your son but.....


----------



## Marc878

How are you doing???


----------



## Hantei

@Chaparral, @JohnA and @bankshot1993


At first, I was going to counter your suggestions wrt giving my STBXW access to the house. Legally it gives me what want - clear cut separation, I stay in the house, son spends time with his mother but sort of not out of control (I don't think she's stringing him). And honestly this arrangement may need to stay firm a while. But then I realised there is a second layer in this - the "normalcy" or I'd say an expectation of it. I need to think how to reduce or eliminate it even as existing co-parenting arrangements stay.

P.S. no I'm not eating what she cooks (she cooked our favourite forythe kid, invited me, I declined, this really hurted her) - I am totally self sufficient now.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> At first, I was going to counter your suggestions wrt giving my STBXW access to the house. Legally it gives me what want - clear cut separation, I stay in the house, son spends time with his mother but sort of not out of control (I don't think she's stringing him). And honestly this arrangement may need to stay firm a while. But then I realised there is a second layer in this - the "normalcy" or I'd say an expectation of it. I need to think how to reduce or eliminate it even as existing co-parenting arrangements stay.
> 
> *P.S. no I'm not eating what she cooks (she cooked our favourite forythe kid, invited me, I declined, this really hurted her) - I am totally self sufficient now.*


*
*
Sounds like the best you can do ATM.
*
Bolded* - Good move on your part. Subtle move=I'm not over this and we aren't friends


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> In terms of my posts here- ok, I AM mad. I work out like crazy in order not to a how it to my son and STBXW (180). Now when financial and legal matters are almost in order *I'm beginning to think that's SOB'S turn now to face the music.*


Your wife is at fault here but SOB was a part. Some here will say revenge is not right however, anyone messes with me, my family, life and future I will find a way for payback.

IMO I would let it be known so it gets back to him that at my leisure he will suffer consequences.

Revenge is best served cold and well planned.


----------



## SunCMars

JohnA said:


> It does not appear your wife is not brave enough to ask for reconciliation outright. It also appears see might be but is speaking woman. If you have the time read some of the WAW threads. In every case the wife claims she has been telling the husband for years she was unhappy and the husband thinks he was blindsided. So if you doubts in your mind about divorce you need to break the ice. The question is how.
> 
> I would suggest after the next time she says she ruined everything just give her a gentle kiss on the forehead and tell her your hurting to, let me mull things over and I will text you my thoughts. No more then that and do not mention reconciliation. Later text her the image of Rodan's the kiss ( I sound like a broken record on that image but it works as an ice breaker) with a note saying "can't get out of my mind of how we where. Do you want to try to save our marriage or not? I am not saying it will work, but in will not say no if you say: I want to try reconcile ( I stepped up asked 20 plus years ago and ask you to marry me, it is your turn to step up and ask will you try to reconcile!) so ask do not hint and tell me about triggers and mind movies and what are you going to do about it. Tell me again what you said but didn't hear or understand. just tell me. While I do not know if either of us can forgive, but maybe we can find acceptance and redemption and a marriage well worth having.
> 
> Be sure to use "either" when discussing forgiveness. Consider the word as a simple olive branch, just as the text I suggest sending.
> Be well and in dealing with this mess strive to be the man you respect in all things.


 @JohnA,

John, you are a kind and just man. 

You are emphatic and can turn your cheek when slighted. 

Most cannot do this, save for their wayward children.

IMHO you are projecting some of your good traits onto Hanteis WW

I too am guilty of this, on occasion. I attribute this to the ever expounded "gut" feeling. 

Gut feelings "at a distance" is predicated and limited to the facts on hand. In this case, the one-sided [but believable] facts presented by @Hantei.

I do believe that sometimes we can channel other subtle [esoteric?] sensory feeds from people and places. This is commonly referred as ESP. Hollywood and scientists [bound by institutional tunnel vision] have turned this notion into quackery. A shame.

I find your present stance on this post's WW different. Why are you varying from your normal [point by point] systematic solution for BS's ? You normally suggest the strict regimen, the 180, fact finding, the stages of what a BS will go through, etc.

You owe TAMMER's an explanation and a clear rationale for this shift in tactics. I gave my take earlier.........no R for this 2 dimensional women.


----------



## SunCMars

Hantei said:


> @Chaparral, @JohnA and @bankshot1993
> 
> 
> At first, I was going to counter your suggestions wrt giving my STBXW access to the house. Legally it gives me what want - clear cut separation, I stay in the house, son spends time with his mother but sort of not out of control (I don't think she's stringing him). And honestly this arrangement may need to stay firm a while. But then I realised there is a second layer in this - the "normalcy" or I'd say an expectation of it. I need to think how to reduce or eliminate it even as existing co-parenting arrangements stay.
> 
> P.S. no I'm not eating what she cooks (she cooked our favourite for the kid, invited me, I declined, this really hurted her) - I am totally self sufficient now.


Perfect. The divorce train must not be side-tracked. 

The close familiarity must cease. 

Her feminine soft side should be rebuffed. She dumped you for a bag of rhinestones.

She stepped off the cliff. 

Water always seeks it's own level. 
Even dirty shallow water.

You are out of her league.


----------



## farsidejunky

@Hantei

Are you falling into a routine with her around frequently?

What message do you think that sends to your son?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> Your wife is at fault here but SOB was a part. Some here will say revenge is not right however, anyone messes with me, my family, life and future I will find a way for payback.
> 
> IMO I would let it be known so it gets back to him that at my leisure he will suffer consequences.
> 
> Revenge is best served cold and well planned.


I left 2 very business like voice mails with him. One asking for a face to face meeting to "discuss". 2nd letting him know that I'm going to pursue the resolution of "issues" on my own accord since he's not responding. Both went unanswered. 

The rest is in the planning phase.

P.S. I'm not giving him a free pass.


----------



## Hantei

farsidejunky said:


> @Hantei
> 
> Are you falling into a routine with her around frequently?
> 
> What message do you think that sends to your son?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


That's a bloody good question. Could you please elaborate?


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> That's a bloody good question. Could you please elaborate?


Okay. So you are playing "house" loosely with her. She is hanging around and cooking meals while you are there. I would assume some other interactions, albeit minor.

Your son sees this, and what does he think?

There are several possibilities. But the one that would worry me the most is the false hope that you two are going to get back together. Then, when she stops spending time at the house, you are going to crush him AGAIN. It will be like breaking the news to him for the first time. 

Take this from someone who had that false hope while his parents were divorcing.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## SunCMars

Marc878 said:


> Your wife is at fault here but SOB was a part. Some here will say revenge is not right however, anyone messes with me, my family, life and future I will find a way for payback.
> 
> IMO I would let it be known so it gets back to him that at my leisure he will suffer consequences.
> 
> Revenge is best served cold and well planned.


NO! 

The trail will lead right to your hooch. Probable cause will get your peter slammed into the dirt. 

Wait and abide. 

Claim your pound of flesh from an unassailable perch with the requisite perfect alibi.

To allow POS-OM another bite out of your tender hide would be a disastrous tragedy.

Yes, revenge is best served cold and well planned.

Be careful, @Hantei, whatever malign forces that allowed him to [Count Coup] and gain advantage over you, using his skunk TOTEM, may still be in play.

We are not always in charge of our destiny. This is a strange universe that we dwell in.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> I left 2 very business like voice mails with him. One asking for a face to face meeting to "discuss". 2nd letting him know that I'm going to pursue the resolution of "issues" on my own accord since he's not responding. Both went unanswered.
> 
> The rest is in the planning phase.
> 
> P.S. I'm not giving him a free pass.


Eh... don't leave anything that could be interpreted as a threat in a voice message, text message, e-mail, etc.


----------



## Hantei

GusPolinski said:


> Eh... don't leave anything that could be interpreted as a threat in a voice message, text message, e-mail, etc.


Of course not. I'm totally harmless btw.


----------



## Hantei

You know what - I'm seriously considering what you have suggested. 1st you are dead set right about my son and there's nothing more to comment. 

Next - this clicks with the matter of "normalcy" brought to my attention before. I'm just looking at this from a different angle- not only my kid's but potentially hers. Someone even suggested a possibility of a subtle manipulation and I can't rule it out. 

So she comes here every night after work, spends time with son, sometimes we interact etc. Is that SO different from when she was just leaving for work in the morning? What's the next step? She drops the bomb she moves in with SOB and I caught off guard as this parenting arrangement is kaput? Or next step she wants to spend night at home as she's too tired to drive and can't stand MIL? (actually she's tried that already). And before I know everything looks back to normal and she's in control to pursue the SOB or stay BAU as long as she wants to? 

Especially with that 1 year of separation when nothing is signed (you see here we don't only drive on the wrong side of the road, we also divorce upside down. We don't file and wait, we wait then file).

This maybe a spontaneous reaction but atm I'm seriously thinking how can I destroy this "normalcy" asap. 




farsidejunky said:


> Okay. So you are playing "house" loosely with her. She is hanging around and cooking meals while you are there. I would assume some other interactions, albeit minor.
> 
> Your son sees this, and what does he think?
> 
> There are several possibilities. But the one that would worry me the most is the false hope that you two are going to get back together. Theen she stops spending time at the house, you are going to crush him AGAIN. It will be like breaking the news to him for the first time.
> 
> Take this from someone who had that false hope while his parents were divorcing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## eric1

You keep it simple and tell her the truth - it is jerking around a kid whose parents will be divorced in a reasonably short amounts my of time.

She's at his grandmothers, it's not like she is in a motel. He can go stay there on the weekends or something.

Honestly if personally ask your son what works best for him. You and he are The Team now. She removed herself from your team. (With respects to your relationship - he and his mom should still have as healthy a relationship as possible obviously)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

eric1 said:


> You keep it simple and tell her the truth - it is jerking around a kid whose parents will be divorced in a reasonably short amounts my of time.
> 
> She's at his grandmothers, it's not like she is in a motel. He can go stay there on the weekends or something.
> 
> Honestly if personally ask your son what works best for him. You and he are The Team now. She removed herself from your team. (With respects to your relationship - he and his mom should still have as healthy a relationship as possible obviously)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This.
@Hantei, she is likely manipulating you, but not maliciously. I think she is hoping for you to save her without her having to get dirty by begging for reconciliation. 

The proper step is to end her hanging out at night.

"I do not want to give our son the wrong impression about us. We are legally separated and on our way to divorce. Time together gives him false hope, and I think there has been enough damage done to him through all of this. If he wants to spend time with you, it can be done at your mother's on weekends."

Or something to that effect after talking to him. But be wary of his answer. If you sense he is delaying the ripping off of the band aid so to speak, you will need to act for him.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Chaparral

She did not say she wants to divorce me. In fact when I brought the matter up she ended up in tears. But for what I know these could be tears of relieve that the most difficult part is over. After all when I confronted her, her “I need someone else” message came with the whole list of what she was unhappy in marriage with – and it was a complete shocker. She used to tell me how happy she is in the marriage all the time, we were just planning our 1st in a while long holiday without a kiddo and she was really affectionate 5 minutes before she left a room accidentally taking my mobile with her instead of hers (our phones are absolutely identical). I don’t drink, make good money, never raised a voice in anger, etc. etc. I need to be a f**g mind reader to spot those problems early enough. It sounded like I’m smothering her “real her”. WTF?"


Has your wife changed her tune? You say she's appoligized numerous times? She hasn't tried to talk to you? Could you be avoiding or missing signals?

The reason I ask is I had begun she to think she was particularly cold when you caught her. Going back and rereading the beginning of your thread, I've changed my mind. I think she got played by an expert. I think she thinks you wouldn't take her back no matter what she did.

It is surprising she is at your house so often and has not asked to talk. Some are so decimated they can't. If she didnt want to fix this she would not be there so much.

I would tell her you need to talk. Then ask her if she has anything to say, ask, or get off her chest. If she cant ask to make things right and reconcile, tell her she is no longer welcome as you have a new life to lead. She can see your son like any other divorced parent.


----------



## farsidejunky

Chaparral said:


> She did not say she wants to divorce me. In fact when I brought the matter up she ended up in tears. But for what I know these could be tears of relieve that the most difficult part is over. After all when I confronted her, her “I need someone else” message came with the whole list of what she was unhappy in marriage with – and it was a complete shocker. She used to tell me how happy she is in the marriage all the time, we were just planning our 1st in a while long holiday without a kiddo and she was really affectionate 5 minutes before she left a room accidentally taking my mobile with her instead of hers (our phones are absolutely identical). I don’t drink, make good money, never raised a voice in anger, etc. etc. I need to be a f**g mind reader to spot those problems early enough. It sounded like I’m smothering her “real her”. WTF?"
> 
> 
> Has your wife changed her tune? You say she's appoligized numerous times? She hasn't tried to talk to you? Could you be avoiding or missing signals?
> 
> The reason I ask is I had begun she to think she was particularly cold when you caught her. Going back and rereading the beginning of your thread, I've changed my mind. I think she got played by an expert. I think she thinks you wouldn't take her back no matter what she did.
> 
> It is surprising she is at your house so often and has not asked to talk. Some are so decimated they can't. If she didnt want to fix this she would not be there so much.
> 
> I would tell her you need to talk. Then ask her if she has anything to say, ask, or get off her chest. If she cant ask to make things right and reconcile, tell her she is no longer welcome as you have a new life to lead. She can see your son like any other divorced parent.


This is even better than my suggestion.

If this conversation ends with more of the same, then I would use what I posted to tell her to go.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## GusPolinski

IMO, even if she does want to reconcile (or, rather, even if she _thinks_ she wants to reconcile), if she can't be bothered to cast aside her pride and/or stop licking the wounds sustained as a result of getting dumped by Mr. Enlightened D**chebag long enough to summon the humility and contrition to actually _ask_ for reconciliation, then it isn't genuine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

I have no problem reading her at all. To me she appears emotionally lazy. I think she wants Hantei to take her back, but she's too proud and too stunted in expressing her desires. She doesn't want to do the hard work to show him she would be a safe risk for R. She wants him to rug sweep and never mention her affair again. That is what I see. Her actions speak loud and clear to me. 

I see a woman who is frustrated that she lost her gamble. She is feeling rejected by her OM. She is mourning the loss of that fake relationship. She knows that she has been branded with a scarlet letter. She knows she has lost the respect of her son. She knows she was manipulated by her mom. She knows that she now faces a very financially unsecure future. These are the things she thinks about. She doesn't think about the pain she brought Hantei. 

What has she done? Nothing. No independent counseling on her own dime, no attempt to reach out to him on any kind of honest level, no self reflection, no cutting out negative associations. She has changed nothing about herself. Why should Hantei want her back? What positives or benefits does she bring to his life? Other than taking the kid off his hands once in a while, none that I can see.


----------



## 86857

Hantei, I didn't realise she was coming by every weeknight. I see the options as:
-son goes to MIL's every night for dinner. Hardly ideal. Does he know about MIL? 
-WS rents her own place close by. Cost deducted from her settlement as I said previously.

Son: The current artificial situation can't be healthy for him & he must sense tension. 

WS: She is being let off very lightly & not getting a proper taste of what life will be like after D.

You: It is not moving forward at all. A treading water/waiting game. I would find it excruciating. Maybe the above will goad WS into asking for R. I can't understand why she hasn't. If she thinks you won't R, then the only way for her to confirm it is to ask you. Do you think it's pride?

Nuts & bolts: I bought my kids two sets of everything as they complained about the packing up for moving between the 2 homes. Expensive, but only fair to them. Initially we did a 3 & 4 night swop around. Then did a 'week about', suggested by them! (10, 8 & 3) which was much better. Kids need a solid home base, even if it's 2 homes. Your son is at best in a 'temporary' situation, all because Mom can't bring herself to ask for R or tell you she doesn't want R. 

I think WS is in denial & deep down feels the family is still an intact because she's at the family home so much. If you suggest she gets her own place, it might result in her asking for R. As @Chaparral said above, no harm asking her, *but in an open-ended way*. Perhaps incorporate the two, 'We can't go on in this living situation forever. It's artificial and isn't fair to our son. You need to get your own place. Do you have anything to say?" No prompting or mention of the R word. I think you may be forced to do this since she hasn't asked & theoretically you could still be living like this in 6 months! 

Make sure to check phone bills for contact with OM. You must be 100% sure for your own sake. 

For the 12 months separation required, it started the day she moved out. Visits don't matter, as long as she doesn't make a habit of staying overnight.


----------



## Acoa

bandit.45 said:


> I have no problem reading her at all. To me she appears emotionally lazy. I think she wants Hantei to take her back, but she's too proud and too stunted in expressing her desires. She doesn't want to do the hard work to show him she would be a safe risk for R. She wants him to rug sweep and never mention her affair again. That is what I see. Her actions speak loud and clear to me.
> 
> I see a woman who is frustrated that she lost her gamble. She is feeling rejected by her OM. She is mourning the loss of that fake relationship. She knows that she has been branded with a scarlet letter. She knows she has lost the respect of her son. She knows she was manipulated by her mom. She knows that she now faces a very financially unsecure future. These are the things she thinks about. She doesn't think about the pain she brought Hantei.
> 
> What has she done? Nothing. No independent counseling on her own dime, no attempt to reach out to him on any kind of honest level, no self reflection, no cutting out negative associations. She has changed nothing about herself. Why should Hantei want her back? What positives or benefits does she bring to his life? Other than taking the kid off his hands once in a while, none that I can see.




I disagree with your interpretation, she isn't lazy, she is manipulative. She wants him to extend the olive branch so that R is his idea and she can set conditions.


----------



## bandit.45

Acoa said:


> I disagree with your interpretation, she isn't lazy, she is manipulative.


Maybe she is both....


----------



## Chaparral

bandit.45 said:


> I have no problem reading her at all. To me she appears emotionally lazy. I think she wants Hantei to take her back, but she's too proud and too stunted in expressing her desires. She doesn't want to do the hard work to show him she would be a safe risk for R. She wants him to rug sweep and never mention her affair again. That is what I see. Her actions speak loud and clear to me.
> 
> I see a woman who is frustrated that she lost her gamble. She is feeling rejected by her OM. She is mourning the loss of that fake relationship. She knows that she has been branded with a scarlet letter. She knows she has lost the respect of her son. She knows she was manipulated by her mom. She knows that she now faces a very financially unsecure future. These are the things she thinks about. She doesn't think about the pain she brought Hantei.
> 
> What has she done? Nothing. No independent counseling on her own dime, no attempt to reach out to him on any kind of honest level, no self reflection, no cutting out negative associations. She has changed nothing about herself. Why should Hantei want her back? What positives or benefits does she bring to his life? Other than taking the kid off his hands once in a while, none that I can see.


 I agree with most of this. However, there have been several waywards here that are just at a loss on what should be done. They are simply hopeless. She doesn't have to go "home" every night to see her son, cook etc. She is going home to see Hentai, ingratiate herself. Ack into the family and look for signals he may be willing to take her back.

I don't think she is missing the player. I do think she is thinking what a fool she has been and how she could have fell for the oldest game in the world.

I would think a real conversation could dispel doubts and it doesn't matter who starts the conversation. In any event there are things to be sorted out.


----------



## bandit.45

But she hasn't shown Hantei that she is any good expressing her desires. She may indeed not be capable of that level of communication.


----------



## Marc878

[She needs someone who is enigmatic, artistic and enlightens people around him. Who "stands up in the crowd and lives life to the fullest". She could have handled this better but what happened happened and we all need to takE it from there.]

*Taken from Hanties first post.* 


Sounds like a cake eater that got caught with her hands in the cookie jar. "I had the right to look elsewhere?" With the living arrangements she's comfortable as she checked out of the marriage. She's just waiting for your little tiff to blow over. Then rugsweep and things go back to normal.

Get her and your son prepared for after divorce so she knows what it looks like. I would cut all interaction with her as well. Seems like she has one got back in the door. Just waiting for you to get over it.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> P.S. no I'm not eating what she cooks (she cooked our favourite forythe kid, invited me, I declined, this really hurted her) - I am totally self sufficient now.


It sounds like she is trying to nice her way back and maybe in limbo of how to handle what she wrought on the marriage. WS's never get the devastation and damage because they are not on the receiving end of this sh!t. They just seem to never be able to put themselves in the BS's shoes.

Maybe a frank discussion on setting up the way things are going to be in the divorce future. I'd bet she isn't thinking that far ahead. As well as when you are going to start dating/seeing other women. Unless you are going to become a celibate monk.

That is probably when the realization of what she's done will start to sink in.


----------



## bandit.45

I encourage him to start dressing swank and going out on the town more and leaving her home with the kid, and I meant that. He needs to take the money he used to spend on WW and spend it on making himself a commodity. If he is a healthy, well built Aussie bloke he would have no trouble attracting ladies. I am not advocating he have a relationship or sleep with someone, but I think it would be a balm to his fractured ego to have a few pretty ladies approach him and flirt with him. 

And yes, seeing him go out like that, and seeing that other women are attracted to him, will definitely up his sex-rank with the WW.


----------



## bandit.45

Oh I forgot. He's got that boat. That's where all the money is going to go.


----------



## bankshot1993

H:
I know that you've mentioned a number of times that she has apologized several times for "how this was done" but has there been any remorse regarding what was done?

I guess what I'm wondering is if there has been any effort on her part to help you heal from what she has done? You've read the posts and threads on what a truly remorseful WW looks like and what things she does to show that remorse so I'm wondering if you are seeing any movement on her part towards that direction.

As I understand it she's been apologetic for how she went about being with the other man (affair) but she's not apologetic for being with him. Has she made any effort to explain her comments about why he was so much better than you and why she was ready to run away with him?


----------



## Marc878

Definitely Bandit. I would update my wardrobe. His impression should be WW moved on now I'm doing the same. Nothing like showing consequences. So far he's handled this great but it'll soon be time to step it up and move to the next phase. 

Stay in control of the situation. She put you here so.......give her a taste of what's coming.


----------



## Marc878

bandit.45 said:


> Oh I forgot. He's got that boat. That's where all the money is going to go.


Oh yeah, that will attract bikini clad women like gnats. IMO if I was going to trade in the old model I would go for a somewhat newer model. Maybe 30ish.


----------



## bandit.45

Marc878 said:


> Oh yeah, that will attract bikini clad women like gnats. IMO if I was going to trade in the old model I would go for a somewhat newer model. Maybe 30ish.


Do boats really attract women, or the sleek, financially secure, and suntanned men who pilot them?


----------



## G.J.

Narr 0

Took me ages for them to keep still long enough for me to take this

erm the girls them self's that is


----------



## bandit.45

G.J. said:


> Narr 0
> 
> Took me ages for them to keep still long enough for me to take this
> 
> erm the girls them self's that is


Did those tops ever come off when you got out to sea?


----------



## G.J.

My lips are sealed

A gentleman doesn't tell..

Yes and yes...dam


----------



## bandit.45

G.J. said:


> My lips are sealed
> 
> A gentleman doesn't tell..
> 
> Yes and yes...dam


Was...there...a...foursome?


----------



## G.J.

I count six !


----------



## bandit.45

Three guys, three babes?


----------



## G.J.

err no

thought you were talking about the picture


----------



## Marc878

G.J. said:


> Narr 0
> 
> Took me ages for them to keep still long enough for me to take this
> 
> erm the girls them self's that is


Hantei, we fully support you and will need to sort through who you should date so that you get the very best that suits your personality.

We'll need stats, info, etc to make these decisions. 

It would be a big help if we could see pics up front to decide this. 

Preferably dressed and undressed.


----------



## Marc878

This is not a thread jack btw we are helping this poor guy get his ego back.


Ps: I think I like the brunette first, blonde on the bottom second, etc.

Hantie, pay attention this is important stuff here.


----------



## G.J.

*oh one for the ladies so I'm PC*











.

Apologies for deviation H.....but a little brevity at times is good


----------



## Graywolf2

Hantei said:


> Especially with that 1 year of separation when nothing is signed (you see here we don't only drive on the wrong side of the road, we also divorce upside down. We don't file and wait, we wait then file).


Is the one year clock officially running as things stand now?


----------



## Decorum

Hantei, 
Is this a situation where you tended to invest more in the marriage than your ww did?

You were cognizant of it but were basically happy because it was mostly good?

Now looking back you realize you carried the relationship, and she enjoyed the ride?

Its a little like raising a teenager, unless you make it clear to them what it takes on their part to make life work they can tend to coast along on your dime? (Do they have Dimes in Australia?)

Now you see the work it would take to get back to a "good place" and realize she may not have it in her, and without that you are less than "enthusiastic" about what might prove to be a lonely path?

IOW, the relationship was more of a 70/30 split?

We are all trying to understand the dynamic behind if a reconciliation is likely, advisable, or even possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame

One of the things I've noticed on these boards is the prevalence of certain words in people's screen names and thread titles. One of the biggies is 'Confused.'

This is what I think your WW is right now. Confused. She had to set up a structure in her head that made sense to her with the OM and the life choices she was making. The problem is that the rewriting of history, blameshifting, and false justification that are required to form this structure really create a house of cards. Since her house has collapsed, she can't make sense of her current reality. She is confused.

I don't think it's your job to unconfuse her. She needs to figure out her own sh!t, in my opinion.

I think I would be very direct with her : 'WW, our end goal is divorce. I believe that we must be clear about our agreements regarding son and home for the next year. This is currently my home; you have your own home. The lines are clear and we will establish rules for visitation, etc.' And so on.

Clarify things for yourself by defining ground rules and a schedule. If she is confused, that's for her to figure out.


----------



## Hantei

G.J. said:


> *oh one for the ladies so I'm PC*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Apologies for deviation H.....but a little brevity at times is good


Absolutely, I enjoyed that.

Trust me I'm not gong to be that tragic figure who dies from the broken heart with her name on his lips.


----------



## Hantei

Graywolf2 said:


> Is the one year clock officially running as things stand now?


Yes. It's official and documented.


----------



## Hantei

Great questions. As far as I can tell and look back - we were a 50/50 team. I can't point towards anything that would explain what happened in any logical way.

And I am looking really hard as my objective is not to win TAM best (betrayed) husband of the year award but to find out what to do next. 





Decorum said:


> Hantei,
> Is this a situation where you tended to invest more in the marriage than your ww did?
> 
> You were cognizant of it but were basically happy because it was mostly good?
> 
> Now looking back you realize you carried the relationship, and she enjoyed the ride?
> 
> Its a little like raising a teenager, unless you make it clear to them what it takes on their part to make life work they can tend to coast along on your dime? (Do they have Dimes in Australia?)
> 
> Now you see the work it would take to get back to a "good place" and realize she may not have it in her, and without that you are less than "enthusiastic" about what might prove to be a lonely path?
> 
> IOW, the relationship was more of a 70/30 split?
> 
> We are all trying to understand the dynamic behind if a reconciliation is likely, advisable, or even possible.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Marc878 said:


> This is not a thread jack btw we are helping this poor guy get his ego back.
> 
> 
> Ps: I think I like the brunette first, blonde on the bottom second, etc.
> 
> Hantie, pay attention this is important stuff here.


I like the blonde on the left. Great curves and she got that "Come here big boy!" look on her face.


----------



## farsidejunky

bandit.45 said:


> I like the blonde on the left. Great curves and she got that "Come here big boy!" look on her face.


Someone needs to get out more...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

You are all prbably right. Of course there are some mutually exclusive assertions in your posts - but I'm equally on the fence. If there are any specific questions to answer, which can help me to address the issues, please ask.

ATM it could be anything. She may be manipulative and trying to maintain BAU and/or "nice her back" - either to have her marriage back or lay the foundation for a smttoh transition out of the marriage (with or without the SOB, seems like he's lost to her).

Equally she may be totally devastated and badly wanting to reconsile but does not know how to communicate that and any stops herself short of any action by saying to herself "too late, it's not going to help".

One thing I know is that really soon I'm going to sop that existing practice of "normalcy" as discussed - for better or for worse. I'm not sure (yet) how and all your suggestions are noted, however I'd say one thing - I'm not yet (and may never will be at least on my own) ready to affer an "olive branch" - even facing a risk of killin something which could be saved. Please let me know in any way that gets sthrough my skull if this is wrong.

--- It looks like the majority is for me to initiate an open discussion with her. Am I right? ----
@Chaparral - yes she has definitely changes her tune. It is a real risk that I'm missing signals. She has tried to talk to me numerous times (but not in a direct and straight way I'd prefer) so I guess I'm avoiding that. Should I not? Perhaps I want to see more effort from her, otherwise I feel like I'll be doing all the work here. Perhaps I'm wrong and I should initiate the talk. It is very likely as you put it she thinks I wouldn't take her back - but assuming she really wants it to work isn't it really worth a try? You may be riht in your second (#791) post as well.
@GusPolinksy and @bandit.45 - exactly. If she values the mariage perhaps she should at least try? 
@********** - no, son will not got ther for dinner. She know about MIL to a degree (overheard). You are right about the rest. No calls or messages from/to OM so far since the "breakup". As I said - on the fence about asking, but will do something anyway. 
@Acoa - maybe. I used your words and adressed the "olive branch" above.
@Marc878 - all for moving to the next phase no matter what.

@bankshot1993 - I have seen nothing comparable to what truly remorseful WW have don (or at least I haven;t been able to noticed that). She has not tried to address these comments you refer to - she has tried to initiate discussions several times but stopped half way. She made it very clear that she was worng about him, and what she thoht was getting from him is not what she needs or wants - she dais she realised it too late but she's certain now. 
@alte Dame - yes, she is definitelly confused (one of the few things I'm certain about - after you pointed out). And I'm likely to use your words to "destroy the normalcy". And this may explain my hesitation to make the 1st step - not my job to unconfuse her.


----------



## SunCMars

Hantei said:


> Of course not. I'm totally harmless btw.


Wrong!

You still have the *harm*ful stench of said O-Possum lingering in the air. This odious sulfur-like gas is known to leach into the flesh, leaving you sad, then anger, then nauseous. 

*Harm*-less occurs when WW and "So Alive Guy" are in the rear-view mirror and fading fast. Getting smaller and smaller.....they are gone.

You will have arrived at *Harm*-oniousville, Oz.

I would follow through with the divorce. Maybe a year or two down the road let her win you back! 
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
*She dumped you on the ground.

Let her till that ground, plant the seeds, water any sprouts, pick off the grubs and caterpillars. She needs to regrow your love using her green thumb, not the one that POSOM's infected with white pus.*


----------



## Marc878

Good questions/points.

You know her better than us. Does she say what she means, etc. 

The most important thing you need at this time is to stay in control.

However, upfront she said she wanted something more than what she had from you. You are who you are and cannot be the SOB. If that is what she wants end it and move on. We all have issues that we can work on but becoming someone else is Bullsh!t

The big thing is what do you want???? This is the most important as it's your life not ours.

This is how I'd approach it. Schedule a sit down to discuss moving forward with the divorce. This will make it real and force a discussion.

Address the fact that your son can't be confused at what's going to happen long term ( he's a kid and kids want it to be the way it was as a family, he will get his hopes up). This doesn't have to happen tomorrow but it needs to be discussed and boundaries set.

Also I would bring up that I will be dating seeing others at some point. You are not in a place to do that at this time but you can set the rules (perfect time to ask her plans with OM) no one is introduced to your son unless it's serious, etc. This would be for the both of you. 

It will show what the future or real world will look like in a divorce setting. I can guarantee she has not thought this far ahead.

When you do this I suspect the subject of reconciliation will come up unless she's done. I would let her bring it up first. She may be confused or not wanting to bring it up as she maybe concerned you are done and moving on. At this point you both may be. We don't know but this is something that should come out in a discussion.

This would be the time to explain what you need from her in this situation if you choose that route and what she's looking for. No rugsweeping, full truth, etc or it's a waste of time.

Remember no remourse is a waste of time. Remourse is regret for the affair not sorry she got caught or may lose her plan B. You need to understand the difference it's very important.

Important: put your thoughts and points down on paper and be well prepared before any discussion.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> It looks like the majority is for me to initiate an open discussion with her. Am I right?


To what end?


----------



## JohnA

Hi Hantie, 

Saw a recent posts of you and I wanted to clarify something. The BS biggest mistake is leaving the family home. Your wife needed to move out. While a WS might want out of the marriage, in most cases they want to keep a lot of the benefits. Right know you WW must feel homeless at some level. Her house is no longer her's, her parents house is not her home. Feeling homeless leaves a huge hole in a person. It means something to a parent to know when they go to bed their child is asleep in the next room. It means something to poke your head in the door in the AM and say rise and shine. That's gone now for her. If I recall correctly I was among the first to say you stay she goes and that her attitude would change the moment your son got home. 

I had thought you and she had decided you stay and your son stay, she goes. For custody your son would spend most school nights in your home and several days with her out of the house and financial matters settled. If so what changed? If not you are heading towards big trouble. Remember that long list of things wrong she gave you? Well pretty soon she will be adding more, the biggest resentment will be you got to stay. She might regret (huge difference regret and "sorry") her actions now but resentment at the current situation will cause her to change the agreement and them a whole lot of ugly will happen. 

If you decide to begin limiting her in your home you will need to speak with your son about why. Simple answer "because spending so much causes great pain to me". If you ask I am sure many posters will give great advise on this matter. 

I stood up and cheered when you stated you turned down food she had prepared for you. You have no idea how that hit home with her.


----------



## JohnA

Could you also share a list of those things she said where wrong, besides those listed here early on. 

Thanks


----------



## Hantei

GusPolinski said:


> To what end?


Sorry Gus, not sure I understand the question.


----------



## Hantei

JohnA said:


> Could you also share a list of those things she said where wrong, besides those listed here early on.
> 
> Thanks


You mean why she almost "ran away" with SOB? E.g. wrong with me?

P.s. I'm staying home. Son stays home. She visits after work.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> Sorry Gus, not sure I understand the question.


What would be the point of the aforementioned "open and honest conversation" w/ your WW?


----------



## Hantei

GusPolinski said:


> What would be the point of the aforementioned "open and honest conversation" w/ your WW?


I see. Can't add anything apart from what's been suggested by other posters? Set boundaries, give her the chance to speak up.


----------



## JohnA

I learned very early in life how to handie criticism. For example: you dress like a slob. My frist reacation is do I or do I not dress like a slob? Second thought is if indeed true what can I do about it. Finally if I am indeed dressing like a slob, that I could change that, DO I WANT TO CHANGE? 

So yes, could you provide a bullet points on her issues with you and the marriage and your thoughts about them.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> I see. Can't add anything apart from what's been suggested by other posters? Set boundaries, give her the chance to speak up.


A discussion regarding boundaries would be good.

As for the rest of it? Not sure I'd take the conversation there.

That'd just be giving her a chance at acknowledging that you're Plan B out loud.


----------



## JohnA

Hi, 

I really want to be clear on why I am pushing to know her issues and your need to own those, and only those, that will help you build a better relationship with the NEXT WOMAN TO COME INTO YOUR LIFE NOT THE CURRENT ONE.


----------



## GusPolinski

JohnA said:


> Hi,
> 
> I really want to be clear on why I am pushing to know her issues and your need to own those, and only those, that will help you build a better relationship with the NEXT WOMAN TO COME INTO YOUR LIFE NOT THE CURRENT ONE.


She's already laid it all out. Anything she says now will be nothing more than a product of the rationalization hamster.


----------



## becareful

Hantei said:


> P.S. no I'm not eating what she cooks (she cooked our favourite forythe kid, invited me, I declined, this really hurted her).


How do you it hurt her? Did she cry or verbalize her reactions? Did she had a downward countenance?


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> A discussion regarding boundaries would be good.
> 
> As for the rest of it? Not sure I'd take the conversation there.
> 
> That'd just be giving her a chance at acknowledging that you're Plan B out loud.


Why does that matter if she days he is plan B? Her actions have shown that to this point.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

@Hantei

Time to stop bullsh!tting. Several posters have asked you what you want. You have been completely indirect.

What do you want?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

There is no shame in wanting R. But right now, you are kind of a man without a plan, other than pushing a divorce that you really don't want (by all appearances).

So the question still stands.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## bandit.45

I think a discussion about setting boundaries for the separation would be a good idea, but don't expect her to abide by any agreement you make with her. She has not shown a willingness to abide by her wedding vows, why should she abide by any rules of separation? 

Have the talk, set your boundaries, but expect her to break them. She may be wallowing now, but if she is a attractive woman she will start dating new men soon. Expect her to behave like a cat in heat. Expect the worse, so if she actually does abide by your agreement, you will be pleasantly surprised. 

Hope for the best, expect the worst...


----------



## Chaparral

I've never cared for the plan a vs plan b concept. I rarely see evidence of that except in exit affairs.

Do I have this right? Just days before you caught her she was enjoying family life and telling you how great things were. Kind of reeks of sewing wild oats.

She got caught and needed reasons for her betrayal thus all the I need blah blah blah bullshi t . I really wonder if she intended on leaving until it all got thrown in her face. Of course this is neither here nor there.

I no longer recommend or discourage reconciliation. The reconciliation rate is said to be about 35%. Oddly, experts claim 80% of couples wish they had stuck together and worked through it. Irk

In any event you have your hands full, prayers for you and yours.

Chap


----------



## Graywolf2

alte Dame said:


> This is what I think your WW is right now. Confused. She had to set up a structure in her head that made sense to her with the OM and the life choices she was making. The problem is that the rewriting of history, blameshifting, and false justification that are required to form this structure really create a house of cards. Since her house has collapsed, she can't make sense of her current reality. She is confused.


You grew up with your wife and she loves you like a brother. Brothers sometimes don’t approve of their sister’s boyfriend. But if the sister loves the boyfriend enough (and everyone finds out how great he is) he’s ultimately accepted and they have one big happy family. This is the “structure” she created.



Hantei said:


> ATM it could be anything. She may be manipulative and trying to maintain BAU and/or "nice her back" - either to have her marriage back or lay the foundation for a smttoh transition out of the marriage (with or without the SOB, seems like he's lost to her).
> 
> Equally she may be totally devastated and badly wanting to reconsile but does not know how to communicate that and any stops herself short of any action by saying to herself "too late, it's not going to help".


I think that she’s still following her original path except without the boyfriend. From her point of view what she did wasn’t personal. She never stopped loving you like a brother. She didn’t harm your son because she always intended him to be included in her happy family. So what’s the harm with her spending the night? You’re all still friends and family after all.

You once mentioned that you should have asked what her boyfriend would think of her spending the night with another man (you). I wish you had.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Even if she turns into the greatest wife..and you want to reconcile, I would still get divorced first. Tell her for you to reconcile, she gives you full custody, house, she can NOT take any of your retirement, nothing. Then you will see if she is really remorseful. If she is, she will give you all you want for 2nd chance.


----------



## bankshot1993

Hantei said:


> @bankshot1993 - I have seen nothing comparable to what truly remorseful WW have don (or at least I haven't been able to noticed that). She has not tried to address these comments you refer to - she has tried to initiate discussions several times but stopped half way. *She made it very clear that she was wrong about him*, and what she thought was getting from him is not what she needs or wants - she dais she realised it too late but she's certain now.


H, bear with me for a second because this answer just infuriates me so much that I just have to get it off my chest.

In other words, what I'm hearing is that he wasn't as enigmatic as she thought (despite the fact that he dumped her not the other way around, horse pucky). So does that mean the next guy that she meets that she thinks is as exciting as she thought the original POSOM was we go through this whole freaking soap opera over again.

Of course I wasn't there and I didn't hear how it was said or in what context so maybe I'm misconstruing the message but I have to say this just pisses me off so much. I've been on the side of R (if and when earned) from the start because it is just who I am but this I have to say, just made me change camps.

In my interpretation this still says you are plan B and there is a chance you will end up plan Z down the road depending on who she meets. She didn't have a moment of clarity where she suddenly realized what you meant to her, she just realized the OM was false window dressing, and lets face it that isn't even true because she went running to him but he dumped her so the only moment of enlightenment came on his part.

sorry for the rant but holy crap I'm pissed.


----------



## bandit.45

When a woman is in the throes of infatuation, it is amazing how delusional she can be. But that is the way nature made women...to bond fiercely to the man they are in love with and to exalt him and defend him against personal attacks from others. I'm sure she actually saw the OM in that light. Now she sees he was a fraud and she feels like one of those pigeons who invest their life savings in pyramid schemes and then bawl buckets when they lose everything. 

I think it is like someone said before: she is confused and lost. She comes over to cook the kid dinner because it restores just a bit of the normalcy that she sacrificed for a douche bag. Maybe she is also confused about her feelings for Hantei...maybe she does see now that she only loved him like a brother for so many years and just doesn't know how to reconcile the history. 

In the end, trying to climb inside the head of a foggy wayward to understand them is a fool's errand at best. I'm glad Hantei is not trying to do that.


----------



## bankshot1993

bandit.45 said:


> When a woman is in the throes of infatuation, it is amazing how delusional she can be. But that is the way nature made women...to bond fiercely to the man they are in love with and to exalt him and defend him against personal attacks from others. I'm sure she actually saw the OM in that light. Now she sees he was a fraud and she feels like one of those pigeons who invest their life savings in pyramid schemes and then bawl buckets when they lose everything.
> 
> I think it is like someone said before: she is confused and lost. She comes over to cook the kid dinner because it restores just a bit of the normalcy that she sacrificed for a douche bag. Maybe she is also confused about her feelings for Hantei...maybe she does see now that she only loved him like a brother for so many years and just doesn't know how to reconcile the history.
> 
> In the end, trying to climb inside the head of a foggy wayward to understand them is a fool's errand at best. I'm glad Hantei is not trying to do that.



Bandit, I know you're right and I know I shouldn't get so emotionally invested in this but man it just pissed me off. I felt like this was a slap in my face because I've hoped that it could be worked out for H's sake but this statement is almost a summation of every reason why R isn't possible.


----------



## eric1

> she made it very clear that she was wrong about him


But what about if she had been right?


----------



## bankshot1993

eric1 said:


> But what about if she had been right?


ok we need this website fixed, there has to be a way we can like something a thousand times because that's what I want to do with this post.


----------



## Marduk

For reals Hantai. 

Stop playing house. Stop discussing things with her. Just stop it all except for logistics about the kids. 

It doesn't matter why she did what she did. 

It doesn't matter if she regrets it now. 

It doesn't matter if you're plan A B C or D. 

It doesn't matter if you have a conflict avoidant personality (which you clearly have). 

None of that **** matters. 

What matters is that you disconnect from her, and that you decide what you want. 

I see a lot of waffling on the former and none of the latter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> Why does that matter if she days he is plan B? Her actions have shown that to this point.


Fair enough.

And, to be clear, I don't imagine that she'd actually come out and say it.

Most likely he'd get a bunch of hamsterspeak.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hantei

All, thank you so much for all incredible support and advice I've got from you - from your posts and PM''s.

I did not expect that degree of empathy. 

H.


----------



## Hope1964

Divinely Favored said:


> Even if she turns into the greatest wife..and you want to reconcile, I would still get divorced first. Tell her for you to reconcile, she gives you full custody, house, she can NOT take any of your retirement, nothing. Then you will see if she is really remorseful. If she is, she will give you all you want for 2nd chance.


Superb idea.


----------



## JohnA

I get you didn't expect this much empathy. Guys I barely knew came up to me and told me been there, done that. More then a few I was shocked and could only respond "YOU TO"? There wounds that cut so deep that only empathy with for others will help the healing process. 

By the way her OM is very empathetic. He just chooses to use it as a weapon.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> All, thank you so much for all incredible support and advice I've got from you - from your posts and PM''s.
> 
> I did not expect that degree of empathy.
> 
> H.


Hey we are some empathetic mutherfvckers.....


----------



## farsidejunky

bandit.45 said:


> Hey we are some empathetic mutherfvckers.....


Except you. You are heartless [email protected]


>


----------



## bandit.45

farsidejunky said:


> Except you. You are heartless [email protected]
> 
> 
> >


[email protected]

Don't cuss! :nono:


----------



## SunCMars

GusPolinski said:


> IMO, even if she does want to reconcile (or, rather, even if she _thinks_ she wants to reconcile), if she can't be bothered to cast aside her pride and/or stop licking the wounds sustained as a result of getting dumped by Mr. Enlightened D**chebag long enough to summon the humility and contrition to actually _ask_ for reconciliation, then it isn't genuine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pride and love are antagonists!

They compete for control in one's mind.


----------



## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> Hey we are some empathetic mutherfvckers.....


I find that my empathy interferes w/ my apathy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SunCMars

marduk said:


> For reals Hantai.
> 
> Stop playing house. Stop discussing things with her. Just stop it all except for logistics about the kids.
> 
> It doesn't matter why she did what she did.
> 
> It doesn't matter if she regrets it now.
> 
> It doesn't matter if you're plan A B C or D.
> 
> It doesn't matter if you have a conflict avoidant personality (which you clearly have).
> 
> None of that **** matters.
> 
> What matters is that you disconnect from her, and that you decide what you want.
> 
> I see a lot of waffling on the former and none of the latter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> None of that **** matters.


Yes...X1000. 

I read the [above notion] in some poor BH's post on TAM. 

Seeing [X1000] again triggered a bad reaction in him.


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> I find that my empathy interferes w/ my apathy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have great antipathy over allowing your apathy to interfere with your empathy.

:nerd:


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> I have great antipathy over allowing your apathy to interfere with your empathy.
> 
> :nerd:


I can sympathize.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SunCMars

GusPolinski said:


> I can sympathize.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sym [in sync/harmony] with.

Path [route for ones journey]

Ize [to render a verb].............. [sight glands!]


Reorder the syntax:

"Watch, and go with the flow"


----------



## GusPolinski

SunCMars said:


> Sym [in sync/harmony] with.
> 
> Path [route for ones journey]
> 
> Ize [to render a verb].............. [sight glands!]
> 
> 
> Reorder the syntax:
> 
> "Watch, and go with the flow"


You should probably lay off the brownies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kivlor

GusPolinski said:


> You should probably lay off the brownies.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or share them >


----------



## farsidejunky

SunCMars said:


> Sym [in sync/harmony] with.
> 
> Path [route for ones journey]
> 
> Ize [to render a verb].............. [sight glands!]
> 
> 
> Reorder the syntax:
> 
> "Watch, and go with the flow"


I have to admit I have difficulty following your writing style. And in fairness, I think it is less about you and more about me just not being bright enough to "get it".

But I'll keep trying.

:grin2:


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> I have to admit I have difficulty following your writing style. And in fairness, I think it is less about you and more about me just not being bright enough to "get it".
> 
> But I'll keep trying.
> 
> :grin2:


Ever see the episode of "Friends" in which Joey writes a recommendation letter to an adoption agency for Chandler and Monica but runs it through some sort of thesaurus program first?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SunCMars

eric1 said:


> But what about if she had been right?


Of course she is wrong about him. He is a decent guy, a good provider and loyal husband. That is the "wrong" part that she referred to.

He was not "cheat worthy". The betrayal did not equal the impetus for the betrayal. He did nothing to warrant the betrayal.

She is right about all that. But you are leaving out "the key". *She did not love him....or even like him enough to divorce first and then "find herself". 
*
Her excuse for returning...... POSOM's aura evaporated.


----------



## bankshot1993

SunCMars said:


> Of course she is wrong about him. He is a decent guy, a good provider and loyal husband. That is the "wrong" part that she referred to.
> 
> He was not "cheat worthy". The betrayal did not equal the impetus for the betrayal. He did nothing to warrant the betrayal.
> 
> She is right about all that. But you are leaving out "the key". *She did not love him....or even like him enough to divorce first and then "find herself".
> *
> Her excuse for returning...... POSOM's aura evaporated.


I think Eric's point was that she said she was wrong about him, with him being the other man not her husband.

So of course the point is that had she been right about OM she would have left H in a cloud of dust while she ran off with mister wonderful.


----------



## bandit.45

Quit trying to figure her out. 

She's batsh!t bonkers right now. Her head is a bellfrey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sparrow555

@Hantei you posted about not having the option to choose to R or D in the early part of your thread.

When you talk to her or discuss things these days, what is the tone of it ? Do you still keep it professional or do you get emotional and angry ?


----------



## ing

Let me guess. She is looking sad and mouneful, has tears welling up in her eyes, her voice shakes when she talks to you.
Her manner is that of someone who has got caught doing something naughty. 

The reason for this is because she can not understand how you as a family member can treat her like this. You are the family member. 

There are three positions available with her: 
Father of child
You are in the process of proving that this is your job and that your primary allegiance goes to your son. Over her. This is a shock to her as she has convinced herself that you are cold and logical with no emotions

Family member, husband
She never really considered this as a job description on its own. It is a job that is if done right is invisible. Empathy, care, simple everyday acts of love. Then she met a man who stood apart from others allowed her to see this as a job that you were very good at but only in hindsight.. When she went to the new guy with the husband job, he went.. what..wait..

Lover
You were fired. Totally and utterly. She probably will talk to talk about "co-dependence" and "agape love" now. I suspect she will talk about mature relationships and avoid that aspect of any reconciliation talk


If that looks at all familiar or resonates then it is much easier to see where the path to Reconciliation lies

There is no reason to talk about problems in the marriage as she did not fire you from that job

There is no reason to talk to her about doing things for the child as you are dealing with that. Without her.

The deal breaker, for her, is sex. With you


So here is how you know if you can reconcile with her.

Insist on talking about sex. Do not engage with pycho-babble, do not allow her to sidetrack. Force the issue

I can guarantee that her body language and the look in her eye will tell you everything you need to know


----------



## SunCMars

bandit.45 said:


> Quit trying to figure her out.
> 
> She's batsh!t bonkers right now. Her head is a bellfrey.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, needed that!


----------



## farsidejunky

ing said:


> Let me guess. She is looking sad and mouneful, has tears welling up in her eyes, her voice shakes when she talks to you.
> Her manner is that of someone who has got caught doing something naughty.
> 
> The reason for this is because she can not understand how you as a family member can treat her like this. You are the family member.
> 
> There are three positions available with her:
> Father of child
> You are in the process of proving that this is your job and that your primary allegiance goes to your son. Over her. This is a shock to her as she has convinced herself that you are cold and logical with no emotions
> 
> Family member, husband
> She never really considered this as a job description on its own. It is a job that is if done right is invisible. Empathy, care, simple everyday acts of love. Then she met a man who stood apart from others allowed her to see this as a job that you were very good at but only in hindsight.. When she went to the new guy with the husband job, he went.. what..wait..
> 
> Lover
> You were fired. Totally and utterly. She probably will talk to talk about "co-dependence" and "agape love" now. I suspect she will talk about mature relationships and avoid that aspect of any reconciliation talk
> 
> 
> If that looks at all familiar or resonates then it is much easier to see where the path to Reconciliation lies
> 
> There is no reason to talk about problems in the marriage as she did not fire you from that job
> 
> There is no reason to talk to her about doing things for the child as you are dealing with that. Without her.
> 
> The deal breaker, for her, is sex. With you
> 
> 
> So here is how you know if you can reconcile with her.
> 
> Insist on talking about sex. Do not engage with pycho-babble, do not allow her to sidetrack. Force the issue
> 
> I can guarantee that her body language and the look in her eye will tell you everything you need to know


Damn, @ing.

Thoroughly enjoyed that.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## SunCMars

GusPolinski said:


> Ever see the episode of "Friends" in which Joey writes a recommendation letter to an adoption agency for Chandler and Monica but runs it through some sort of thesaurus program first?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes!

The source of the gibberish is.................

A huge [fire encircled] head on the screen; a little old charlatan of a Wizard hiding behind the curtain, barking into the microphone, pulling the levers, while sitting on a stool with one leg missing. He is eating a brownie from @GusPolinski stash.

Then you hear Kevin Spacey roar......Your' no son of mine! 

Spacey then turns off the basement light leaving the erstwhile Wizard to stew in his insidious bile.

I have lost the Klingon Cloaking Device, for sure.


----------



## GusPolinski

LOL. More of a donut guy, TBH.


----------



## Marc878

Ok I'm bored can we bring in some more chics on boats????

This is not a thread Jack we are helping Hantei >


----------



## ing

The letter
https://youtu.be/B1tOqZUNebs


----------



## bandit.45

Ing, the Great and Powerful, has spoken....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Hantei sir, I have been following your story. You are a good man. I have been in your shoes and I know the devastating effects on one when they find out the woman they love has betrayed them in the worst way possible. As others have said the 180 is the best action you can take. 

I am under the assumption that you may be slightly on the fence about reconciliation. Be patient as you go through this process and as much as possible step back and think through any action she is involved in.
I think you will be able to tell if she is remorseful or not. If you sense that she is proceed with caution. 

I am going on my fourth month of r right now, and fortunately all is going far better than I anticipated. My wife apologized to me profusely and told me if I could find it in my heart to take her back she would make it all up to me. I was ready to bolt, but was able to get to a point of clarity where it appears you are. Only you know how you feel, and probably have a good read on her. From what I am reading she is not truly remorseful about her actions as my wife was.

Right now the most important issue to deal with is your son. I have two grown children and their mothers actions devastated them. I can only imagine it has been much worse on your son. Be there for him all you can. Stay strong.


----------



## 86857

Bumping. You OK @Hantei ?


----------



## MovingFrwrd

So sorry you're here. I've finally caught up on your thread, and I've gotta say, to this point, you have been amazing.

Side note, if you are considering R, that's not a bad thing. There are a lot of factors that indicate it's not a bad idea to try. 

She was nudged into her current situation. Your MIL may need to rot in hell. But - the long story short is your wife made the choices she made on her own.

You did not cause any of this situation. She had to make her own choices to arrive at this point. You may need to take a long look at all that happened prior to this to see if you had actions which helped it to get to this point, but those are completely separate to her choice to take the actions she chose.

Understand this. Nobody's perfect. I realize we are getting your side of the story: and it's a really crummy story (for the pain involved.)

There are parts that you played. Own them. There are parts she played. She had to own them. Check that. She MUST own them.

I'm not going to say R isn't a possibility, but if it's on the table, sh must walk away from the influences that helped support the affair she had. She must open her life up to you.

Yoy deserve honesty. She deserves the same. I know the truth you will speak will drive stakes through her heart. And, I'm sure she has additional stakes to get you with.

So, long story short. R is the hardest path. There are constant reminders along the way. For both of you. You need to decide your path. But it MUST be based on the most honest and complete story possible. She can't be lying about anything, and neither can you. 

This is a critical juncture. You are about to create your own path, and that's not a bad thing. But I sense you want to look at the road less traveled. Don't be afraid of it, but know that you will need to also to function as a support for what she's going through.

You need to know what you are forgiving to determine the best steps.

If she can't have honest discussions now, it looks like the divorce and separate path is the best.

End of side note. Lonely Husband has done a great job of getting through to this point. He is an incredible resource, and don't discount that.

Feel free to read my thread as well. I know I struggle, but I've been recieving signs that we are on the long road to R.

It is a long road. I applaud you if you choose it, I applaud you if you find your own path. (She's dropping hints like crazy that she wants you back) Realize that you do have the power here. It's something that needs a man of character to see it through.

Either choice is fine, if you so deem, You get to set your own agenda, but you must commit and see it through.


----------



## bandit.45

She has made it clear to Hantei that she wants neither him or a marriage. She just wants him to stick around and financially support her until she can get on her feet and figure out where to go.


----------



## sparrow555

MovingFrwrd said:


> So sorry you're here. I've finally caught up on your thread, and I've gotta say, to this point, you have been amazing.
> 
> *Side note, if you are considering R, that's not a bad thing. There are a lot of factors that indicate it's not a bad idea to try.
> *
> She was nudged into her current situation. Your MIL may need to rot in hell. But - the long story short is your wife made the choices she made on her own.
> 
> You did not cause any of this situation. She had to make her own choices to arrive at this point. *You may need to take a long look at all that happened prior to this to see if you had actions which helped it to get to this point*, but those are completely separate to her choice to take the actions she chose.
> 
> Understand this. Nobody's perfect. I realize we are getting your side of the story: and it's a really crummy story (for the pain involved.)
> 
> *There are parts that you played. Own them.* There are parts she played. She had to own them. Check that. She MUST own them.
> 
> I'm not going to say R isn't a possibility, but if it's on the table, sh must walk away from the influences that helped support the affair she had. She must open her life up to you.
> 
> Yoy deserve honesty. *She deserves the same. * I know the truth you will speak will drive stakes through her heart. And, I'm sure she has additional stakes to get you with.
> 
> So, long story short. R is the hardest path. There are constant reminders along the way. For both of you. You need to decide your path. But it MUST be based on the most honest and complete story possible. She can't be lying about anything, and *neither can you. *
> 
> This is a critical juncture. You are about to create your own path, and that's not a bad thing. But I sense you want to look at the road less traveled. Don't be afraid of it, but know that you will need to also to function as a support for what she's going through.
> 
> You need to know what you are forgiving to determine the best steps.
> 
> If she can't have honest discussions now, it looks like the divorce and separate path is the best.
> 
> End of side note. Lonely Husband has done a great job of getting through to this point. He is an incredible resource, and don't discount that.
> 
> Feel free to read my thread as well. I know I struggle, but I've been recieving signs that we are on the long road to R.
> 
> It is a long road. I applaud you if you choose it, I applaud you if you find your own path. (She's dropping hints like crazy that she wants you back) Realize that you do have the power here. It's something that needs a *man of character *to see it through.
> 
> Either choice is fine, if you so deem, You get to set your own agenda, but you must commit and see it through.



Are you trying to make him feel guilty about R so that you can justify and make sense your own decision to R with a serial cheating wife ?


I am saying this because your entire post seems manipulative. He has standards that he is sticking to. Don;t try to drag him down to make yourself feel better.


----------



## MovingFrwrd

I can appreciate that response. I want him to know what he's in for, should he choose R.

Remember, it's his choice. If he goes D, and it's going along, I've got no issues. If she's pushing for R, he needs to know what to deal with.

I appreciate you following my thread. I truly hope your marriage/relationship is better than mine at the moment. 

I haven't researched your own thread(s) but where you are, I hope for the best.


----------



## bandit.45

But she's not pushing for R. 

She's not pushing for anything. She's moping around mourning the loss of her fantasy and playing house with her son a few hours each night. That's not showing signs of wanting R.


----------



## MovingFrwrd

bandit.45 said:


> But she's not pushing for R.
> 
> She's not pushing for anything. She's moping around mourning the loss of her fantasy and playing house with her son a few hours each night. That's not showing signs of wanting R.


Good to know. 

Again, I'm just trying to say if he's considering, he needs to know that's coming. If it's D, then go for it. If otherwise, I wish him the best. I'm not pushing any agenda, I hope the OP finds his best path.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei was a good husband to his WW. She is just another pathetic example of a wayward wife who took her husband and marriage for granted, saw a man she was attracted to, engaged in a clandestine affair, but then ended up getting emotionally attached to the idiot and decided he was more than just a fun romp on the side. She decided to replace her husband with him. 

Except it didn't work out the way she thought it would. Now she has destroyed any love she once had for Hantei and has proceeded to rewrite the nature of her past feelings for him so that she can justify in her mind what she did. She is so deep in guilt, embarrassment, shame and pride that there is no going back for her. She would have to admit what a weak, immoral, pathetic person she is, but her pride will not let her do that.


----------



## farsidejunky

bandit.45 said:


> She has made it clear to Hantei that she wants neither him or a marriage. She just wants him to stick around and financially support her until she can get on her feet and figure out where to go.


I don't think that is right, brother. She wants a life line without having to ask for one.

Likely a mixture of pride and shame.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MovingFrwrd

I take the standpoint of I don't know their whole story. I get to read what's presented, and we all know it's tough to provide both sides of the story. As we all know, each story between two people presents a minimum of 3 sides.

So, with that point of view I'm not condemning or pushing for any specific direction. We are not in his shoes, we can offer advice as to what appears to be going on. There is more that happens between he and his wife that will show up here.

The triage aspect of TAM is important. When you get blindsided, you need support, and I believe this forum does that very well for BS. It does no good to the OP to fight amongst each other.

Hantei. I don't judge you. I fully support you. If you chose D, I hope the best for you. If you choose R, again, I hope for the best for you.

You seem like a very solid person and you deserve the best in life.


----------



## Hantei

I'd like to post a quick update (thanks to everyone who has posted, I'll check your responses soon). 

The summary is - I have priceeded wirh breaking this "normalcy" or "playing house" as you call it.

At my 1st attempt to change something relatively minor (tried to do it as a set of steps instead of big bang) I've got complete and utter emotional brain dump/collapse from my STBXW, which included a desperate (for a lack of better word) beg for R, on my terms, a lot of details and offer for the rest if I need them and all assurances the SOB does not longer "exist".

So I took time out to process all of that. This is draining.


----------



## Marc878

Take your time she is on your dime. I'd probably take a week or two and carefully think this over.

Can you live with it long term?

Can she carry her load?

Can she formally apologize to her and your family for her sh!t?

I'd make a huge list. Run my bath water, wash and wax my boat and car, etc, etc >


----------



## 86857

Good to hear @Hantei. I thought that as soon as you did that - or started it - this might happen. The impasse is over which is a good thing. 
@Marc878 is right. Take your own sweet time. There's no rush and in many ways, it is probably a bigger decision than getting married in the first place.


----------



## JohnA

BINGO !!!

She was trying to nice you back and rug-sweep her adultery by returning to her normal life. On DDay she thought posm and she would have a wonderful life together and her son would accept his new stepdad and come to admire him. His new stepdad would provide her son with wonderful new opportunities. What she fails to grasp is the fundamental changes that occur in a BS. 

Take care with your son. She is his mom and a big part of him wants to see the two reunited. 

My mom would never accept "I really sorry" from her children. If we where really sorry she would say you would not ave done it and close by asking if we where just sorry I got caught. As her children got older she demand we explain how we choose that behavior and why it was wrong. So I would reject I will do anything out of hand. I would demand she tell me what she will do and why she would do it. There is actually a book "how to help your spouce heal" (not sure of actual title). Has read it, has she done any research into your pain.

This link is to another site that sums it up. Things that every wayward spouse needs to know - LoveShack.org Community Forums. The other thing my mom stressed that until you know the reason, all therules in the world will fail. 

Reconcilation 101: know how each of your issues effected the other person. Nothing in your last post suggest she gets it. Until she does just 180 her.


----------



## Marc878

********** said:


> Good to hear @Hantei. I thought that as soon as you did that - or started it - this might happen. The impasse is over which is a good thing.
> 
> @Marc878 is right. Take your own sweet time. There's no rush and in many ways, it is probably a bigger decision than getting married in the first place.


IN essence that's what you are doing. Your old marriage was killed by her. What you are doing is starting a new one if that's what you choose.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> I'd like to post a quick update (thanks to everyone who has posted, I'll check your responses soon).
> 
> The summary is - I have priceeded wirh breaking this "normalcy" or "playing house" as you call it.
> 
> At my 1st attempt to change something relatively minor (tried to do it as a set of steps instead of big bang) I've got complete and utter emotional brain dump/collapse from my STBXW, which included a desperate (for a lack of better word) beg for R, on my terms, a lot of details and offer for the rest if I need them and all assurances the SOB does not longer "exist".
> 
> So I took time out to process all of that. This is draining.


Dude.

NO.


----------



## farsidejunky

What do you mean by "a lot of details"? Please lay it all out if you can.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## bandit.45

farsidejunky said:


> I don't think that is right, brother. She wants a life line without having to ask for one.
> 
> Likely a mixture of pride and shame.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


The truth probably lies somewhere in between.


----------



## bandit.45

GusPolinski said:


> Dude.
> 
> NO.


:iagree::iagree:


Hantei you need to be very very careful here. Very careful. 

Please do not promise her anything or make any moves until you run it by us first!

Do not get over-excited or hopeful. I hope you are not caving to her bullsh!t. 

She is a nutcase right now. She is desperate, scared, embarrassed and her future is grim. She knows this and that is the reason she melted. Be very careful with this. Keep her at arms length and watch her closely. Ask her tough questions. Ask her why the sudden change of heart. Ask, ask, ask, ask....but do not make her any promises, other than you will promise not to promise anything. 

We have seen a hundred similar situations where the wayward has a meltdown, the BS comforts her, they talk R, she reaffirms her love....and then the next day the BS goes to the WW to talk more and the WW says "I never told you that.....I don't want to get back together....I just had a moment of weakness and I'm sorry I gave you hope, but my OM just called me and we are moving in together".....

You do not know how many times we have seen this happen, and it's like DDay all over agin for the poor BS. 

So be very, very careful with her.


----------



## eric1

I think that you should continue to disengage for now. I've said that decisions can't be made emotionally and what's the point of listening to her when it's a reasonable assumption she's acting completely on emotion now. Her boyfriend dumped her is emotional destruction #1, unknown future is #2. It's it apparent she is at all sorry judging by her actions. She needs to arrive at this on her own.

I mean it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that she needs to see IC. You can't push her into this or prompt her. Read NewPhoenix5's thread for what happens when the betrayed carries all the water, it creates permalimbo


----------



## TX-SC

I have to agree with the others here. This is a huge decision and you have to be extremely careful in how you proceed. She is upset over losing both the OM and her family. Go back to your first few posts and reread what they say. She was checking out of your marriage.


----------



## TDSC60

Said to say neither on of you are in an emotional state to make good decisions. Especially one that will affect the future of the family. Slow down. Do you think she would be begging to come back if OM had not dumped her? 
Did she love him?
Why does she want to R now?
How can you be sure she will not do this again?

These are questions that she needs to answer and you must be careful how much you believe.

The questions you have to answer are can you ever trust her again? Can you forgive what she has done? Do you even want to attempt R knowing that you are Plan B?


----------



## bandit.45

TX-SC said:


> I have to agree with the others here. This is a huge decision and you have to be extremely careful in how you proceed. She is upset over losing both the OM and her family. Go back to your first few posts and reread what they say. She was checking out of your marriage.


Definitely. 

Hantai go back and re-read your first posts. Remind yourself how cold and cruel her actions were. Ask her how she intends to resolve her feelings now with the attitude she had then. She threw her affair in your face and kicked you when you were down. She abandoned her son. 

Now she feels bad and she realizes she has lost everything. Boo-fvcking-hoo. 

If you even hint you might want to R, at the very least she should allow you to let the divorce run on and become official. This marriage as it is needs to die and be buried. You and her can rebuild a new relationship, but it won't be as husband and wife. She can try to be your girlfriend, you and her can date, she can chase you and earn back your affection. 

But it will take a MONUMENTAL and long term effort on her part to make the changes she needs to make to ensure that she can be a safe partner for you again. We are talking years of counseling and hard work. Can she? Does she have it in her to do the hard work? Does she even have the attraction and love for you anymore to want to try? 

I'm not impressed by what I have seen so far. I don't think she has it in her to fight for that long and that hard. I think she will be a rug sweeper if you agree to try. That is my prediction. Your WW seems to prefer taking the easy path.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> She did not deny it, she couldn't as the message was literally "Hi [her name], *I want you to know I cannot stop thinking about you, my day is full of thoughts about our last time together, I can't even tell you how much did I enjoy every inch of your body and I'm sure I hasn't left any of it without an attention it deserve. Please call me when you can
> *
> I expected shock, tears, guilt, remorse and frantic attempts to save the marriage. I have got the 1st three for a day or two... Eventually she opened up with the following: that she is sorry she's hurt me, I'm a wonderful man and a great husband, she can't fault me and still loves me but last couple of years(? WTF) she felt chocked in the marriage. _*That she needs someone who is enigmatic, artistic and enlightens people around him. Who "stands up in the crowd and lives life to the fullest". She could have handled this better but what happened happened and we all need to take it from here.*_* That was as close to the quote as I can produce ATM. She hasn’t answered my question about the divorce and does not seem to want separation but needs "time to asses who she is and what she wants". So it looks like I have been denied even a f**ng say in whether we should try to reconcile or divorce.* I have left a message for a family lawyer this morning.


*My thoughts on your reconciliation
*

What if her other man hadn't been a coward and disappeared? She plainly told you he was what she wanted. She wanted time to decide???? You did not get a say in the future of the marriage.

I suspect even now she does not regret her *sexual affair* with him. Rather than remourse it's sorry that he ran away and left her in a spot.

She is jumping on reconciliation with tears because her real plans fell through when SOB ran away.

She is playing you for her PLAN B

Make sure you understand where you are in this because long term it will eat away at you. 

Can you live with this? Unless you can become a total doormat and swallow your manhood this will waste your time and life ending badly.

I would put this to her in plain language. Why would I want to be your PLAN B??????

It's easy in the beginning you just get back together but long term the elephant in the room will just get bigger.


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> I'd like to post a quick update (thanks to everyone who has posted, I'll check your responses soon).
> 
> The summary is - I have priceeded wirh breaking this "normalcy" or "playing house" as you call it.
> 
> At my 1st attempt to change something relatively minor (tried to do it as a set of steps instead of big bang) I've got complete and utter emotional brain dump/collapse from my STBXW, which included a desperate (for a lack of better word) beg for R, on my terms, a lot of details and offer for the rest if I need them and all assurances the SOB does not longer "exist".
> 
> So I took time out to process all of that. This is draining.


It's draining because you're trying to convince yourself you're stopping playing house, when you're not.

Rip the band aid off. 

Here's what you can get done in the next 24 hours as a checklist:
[ ] draw up a separation agreement with a lawyer (at least send him a draft document and book a meeting
[ ] tell your wife you want a documented timeline of her affair with all details (for your clarity of decision making) - written and emailed to you or waiting on the kitchen counter or something. The point is not to have a discussion about it, the point is to see if she is going to be honest with you and herself, and for you to be able to actually make a decision about your life.
[ ] tell your wife that you'd prefer her to leave the house
[ ] book an STD test
[ ] eat well, get in a good workout, maybe buy yourself some new threads or a haircut or something
[ ] stop talking to your wife altogether except about her leaving the house or logistics about the kids or the timeline
[ ] call a realtor and arrange for your house to be assessed
[ ] make plans to be out with friends tonight and don't tell her what you are doing

I'd call that a good plan for today.


----------



## bankshot1993

Marc878 said:


> *My thoughts on your reconciliation
> *
> 
> What if her other man hadn't been a coward and disappeared? She plainly told you he was what she wanted. She wanted time to decide???? You did not get a say in the future of the marriage.
> 
> I suspect even now she does not regret her *sexual affair* with him. Rather than remourse it's sorry that he ran away and left her in a spot.
> 
> She is jumping on reconciliation with tears because her real plans fell through when SOB ran away.
> 
> She is playing you for her PLAN B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Make sure you understand where you are in this because long term it will eat away at you.
> 
> Can you live with this? Unless you can become a total doormat and swallow your manhood this will waste your time and life ending badly.
> 
> I would put this to her in plain language. Why would I want to be your PLAN B??????
> 
> It's easy in the beginning you just get back together but long term the elephant in the room will just get bigger.


*NAILED IT*:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Sorry H but I'm still pretty pssed about the response to the other man not being what she thought he was instead of I didn't realize what I was throwing away, WTF. As another poster said, what if he was what she thought? She would be gone looking at you in a cloud of dust in the rearview mirror while snuggled up to MR awesome.

Everything I've read and seen says you are nothing but a space holder until a new plan A comes along. You don't seem like the type to me that would be OK with keeping another mans seat warm while she waits for him to arrive.

Its pretty clear she checked out and now that you are taking her out of her comfort zone by removing her status quo and replacing it with the new reality she is reeling. She isn't reeling because she lost or is losing you, she is reeling because she is losing her comfortable stable little world. It was all about her before and its all about her now.


----------



## Decorum

H,
Atm she is doing this for herself, not remorse, no doubt about it.



_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

I think Marc878 has a bead on it. 

The biggest question your WW has to answer for your is "why now and why me?" If OM was such a sexy, love master, what is it about you that she desires on a sexual level. 

You need to make it clear to her that you are no woman's boobie prize. If she cannot drum up enough sexual desire for you to make you her main stud again, then it is not even worth discussing. Do not let her rope you in to R and then turn around and tell you she doesn't want sex. No. No fvcking way. 

Tell her for you to even consider wanting to R with her there is going to be sex...lots of sex when you want and to the same degree or more than she was providing the OM. That is the way it will be or she can get comfortable living at mom's.


----------



## Tron

Hantei said:


> I've got complete and utter emotional brain dump/collapse from my STBXW, which included a desperate (for a lack of better word) beg for R, on my terms, a lot of details and offer for the rest if I need them and all assurances the SOB does not longer "exist".


Like everyone said, take your time. This doesn't need to be rushed because how you feel today may be totally different than how you feel 3 months from now or a year from now. Don't slow the D either, although I don't know how they handle potential R's in the middle of a divorce in Oz. I'd be curious though how that would work with the 1 year waiting period. Good question for your lawyer.

More importantly, has she at all figured out why she did this? Because I guarantee you it wasn't because that SOB was more creative or more interesting or whatever the F she said about him at the time. That was the fog and her hamster talking to try to justify her pi$$ poor behavior. 

What "terms" is she agreeable to? What is she committed to? I think that would be helpful in determining whether she really is truly on the road to remorse or just feeling sorry for herself by fvcking up her life so badly. 

I think at a minimum she needs to get into IC. With no self reflection, no self evaluation, no hard look in the mirror, you both are wasting your time. Rug-sweeps never end well. And I think your involvement in that at least at the very beginning might be helpful too. 

How do you feel about it?


----------



## JohnA

Hi Hantei, 

I posted some thoughts on my last post on what I would have needed to see if my exWW had broached the subject of reconciliation. After reading your updates and other responses I suggest you keep the ball in her court. 

Ask her this: you need a different type of man in your life then me. ( @Marc878 hit the nail on the head in his last post). She wants a more empathic man, a man more enigmatic, a man who enlightens those around him. She craves this so greatly she committed adultery with him. (adultery a cold and harsh word that fits, she did not have an affair) so how can you live with a woman who will always view you as second or third best? How can you live in a limbo wondering not if, but when she will leave you.

I do believes she regrets het adultery. Unfortunately she regrets it not because of the harm and pain it inflicted on those around her, but she as it turns out she squandered herself for fools gold.

Again you have, what nine months before you can file? If you have any doubts tell her you will not date before the divorce is final, what she does is up to her. Then stand back and see how hard she fights for this marriage.

Be well


----------



## Affaircare

Speaking as a former disloyal wife here, here are my quick thoughts:

I think it is reasonable for you to choose to reconcile if that is the choice you make of your own free will. But before you make that decision, I do think it would also be 100% reasonable to say that the cost of her adultery (call it that, because that is what it was) is that she will need to move out and for the next nine months she's on her own. 

For the next nine months, you two are separated and you are WILLING to give her the chance to prove to you WITH HER ACTIONS that she means it and understands what she has done. During those nine months, she is in her own place and has her child half the time and she gets no child support or alimony or anything like that. she has to work to support herself AND figure out how to care for the child by herself AND do the hard work on herself to figure out why she did what she did AND figure out how to rebuild the marriage she destroyed. 

In return, you agree to file separation to protect yourself legally and financially from any shenanigans she may pull, you agree to keep and open mind and give her a chance to prove herself, and you agree to put off your decision for 9 months. If she does not do the work, you two are already separated and you just make it legal by filing. If she DOES do the work, then you're free to choose to continue building a whole ne marriage!

My guess, from what I can hear in your words, is that she wants it to return to "the way it was before." Well let me tell you: the way it was before lead to adultery, and thus, that "way" is no more. Before she can meltdown and make promises and whatnot, she has to fully accept that the marriage she had before will never, ever exist again...due to her actions! If she agrees to separate, gets herself to counseling, does the personal work to become a better woman and wife, and deals with her issues...those are actions that indicate she's serious and has the potential character to be a good wife. If she blames, avoids, denies and minimizes ... those are actions that indicate she's bluffing you to try to manipulate the situation again and therefore does not have the potential character to be a faithful, committed wife. 

Look, @Hantei, people do make mistakes (not meaning "Oops that was a goof" but rather "That was a major cluster f*ck!"), and people can come back from a mistake...but it's very rare. Most people these days would rather rugsweep and blame others than look at themselves and do the personal work to improve and mature.


----------



## farsidejunky

Affaircare said:


> Speaking as a former disloyal wife here, here are my quick thoughts:
> 
> I think it is reasonable for you to choose to reconcile if that is the choice you make of your own free will. But before you make that decision, I do think it would also be 100% reasonable to say that the cost of her adultery (call it that, because that is what it was) is that she will need to move out and for the next nine months she's on her own.
> 
> For the next nine months, you two are separated and you are WILLING to give her the chance to prove to you WITH HER ACTIONS that she means it and understands what she has done. During those nine months, she is in her own place and has her child half the time and she gets no child support or alimony or anything like that. she has to work to support herself AND figure out how to care for the child by herself AND do the hard work on herself to figure out why she did what she did AND figure out how to rebuild the marriage she destroyed.
> 
> In return, you agree to file separation to protect yourself legally and financially from any shenanigans she may pull, you agree to keep and open mind and give her a chance to prove herself, and you agree to put off your decision for 9 months. If she does not do the work, you two are already separated and you just make it legal by filing. If she DOES do the work, then you're free to choose to continue building a whole ne marriage!
> 
> My guess, from what I can hear in your words, is that she wants it to return to "the way it was before." Well let me tell you: the way it was before lead to adultery, and thus, that "way" is no more. Before she can meltdown and make promises and whatnot, she has to fully accept that the marriage she had before will never, ever exist again...due to her actions! If she agrees to separate, gets herself to counseling, does the personal work to become a better woman and wife, and deals with her issues...those are actions that indicate she's serious and has the potential character to be a good wife. If she blames, avoids, denies and minimizes ... those are actions that indicate she's bluffing you to try to manipulate the situation again and therefore does not have the potential character to be a faithful, committed wife.
> 
> Look, @Hantei, people do make mistakes (not meaning "Oops that was a goof" but rather "That was a major cluster f*ck!"), and people can come back from a mistake...but it's very rare. Most people these days would rather rugsweep and blame others than look at themselves and do the personal work to improve and mature.


This. IN SPADES.

Love me some @Affaircare.


----------



## Marc878

Decorum said:


> H,
> Atm she is doing this for herself, not remorse, no doubt about it.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly.


----------



## Mike11

Pure Gold Advise here 





Affaircare said:


> Speaking as a former disloyal wife here, here are my quick thoughts:
> 
> I think it is reasonable for you to choose to reconcile if that is the choice you make of your own free will. But before you make that decision, I do think it would also be 100% reasonable to say that the cost of her adultery (call it that, because that is what it was) is that she will need to move out and for the next nine months she's on her own.
> 
> For the next nine months, you two are separated and you are WILLING to give her the chance to prove to you WITH HER ACTIONS that she means it and understands what she has done. During those nine months, she is in her own place and has her child half the time and she gets no child support or alimony or anything like that. she has to work to support herself AND figure out how to care for the child by herself AND do the hard work on herself to figure out why she did what she did AND figure out how to rebuild the marriage she destroyed.
> 
> In return, you agree to file separation to protect yourself legally and financially from any shenanigans she may pull, you agree to keep and open mind and give her a chance to prove herself, and you agree to put off your decision for 9 months. If she does not do the work, you two are already separated and you just make it legal by filing. If she DOES do the work, then you're free to choose to continue building a whole ne marriage!
> 
> My guess, from what I can hear in your words, is that she wants it to return to "the way it was before." Well let me tell you: the way it was before lead to adultery, and thus, that "way" is no more. Before she can meltdown and make promises and whatnot, she has to fully accept that the marriage she had before will never, ever exist again...due to her actions! If she agrees to separate, gets herself to counseling, does the personal work to become a better woman and wife, and deals with her issues...those are actions that indicate she's serious and has the potential character to be a good wife. If she blames, avoids, denies and minimizes ... those are actions that indicate she's bluffing you to try to manipulate the situation again and therefore does not have the potential character to be a faithful, committed wife.
> 
> Look, @Hantei, people do make mistakes (not meaning "Oops that was a goof" but rather "That was a major cluster f*ck!"), and people can come back from a mistake...but it's very rare. Most people these days would rather rugsweep and blame others than look at themselves and do the personal work to improve and mature.


----------



## Be smart

My friend you are moving to fast. 

Two-three days ago your wife never talked about R. She even told you the last guy was "mistake" but she never told how much she wants R and how much she wants to help you and your son.

She needs you right now because her "dream guy" dont want her. She have money problems,she is back with her parents at age of 39. What is even worse she is staying with her mother,the same woman who pushed her and gave her advice to hurt you and your son. 

This is mistake my friend and you will get hurt even more in the future. I dont see anything good about her and how sorry she was. ONCE AGAIN she thinks only about herself. 

Stay strong.


----------



## Be smart

One more thing. 

Even if you decide to R,every time you have fight or some misunderstanding your wife will talk with her mom. She will listen over and over again the same thing "I told you OM was the right man for you" or "he would never do that". 

It is to much my friend and you are still young,only 41 years old.


----------



## eric1

Affaircare said:


> Speaking as a former disloyal wife here, here are my quick thoughts:
> 
> I think it is reasonable for you to choose to reconcile if that is the choice you make of your own free will. But before you make that decision, I do think it would also be 100% reasonable to say that the cost of her adultery (call it that, because that is what it was) is that she will need to move out and for the next nine months she's on her own.
> 
> For the next nine months, you two are separated and you are WILLING to give her the chance to prove to you WITH HER ACTIONS that she means it and understands what she has done. During those nine months, she is in her own place and has her child half the time and she gets no child support or alimony or anything like that. she has to work to support herself AND figure out how to care for the child by herself AND do the hard work on herself to figure out why she did what she did AND figure out how to rebuild the marriage she destroyed.
> 
> In return, you agree to file separation to protect yourself legally and financially from any shenanigans she may pull, you agree to keep and open mind and give her a chance to prove herself, and you agree to put off your decision for 9 months. If she does not do the work, you two are already separated and you just make it legal by filing. If she DOES do the work, then you're free to choose to continue building a whole ne marriage!
> 
> My guess, from what I can hear in your words, is that she wants it to return to "the way it was before." Well let me tell you: the way it was before lead to adultery, and thus, that "way" is no more. Before she can meltdown and make promises and whatnot, she has to fully accept that the marriage she had before will never, ever exist again...due to her actions! If she agrees to separate, gets herself to counseling, does the personal work to become a better woman and wife, and deals with her issues...those are actions that indicate she's serious and has the potential character to be a good wife. If she blames, avoids, denies and minimizes ... those are actions that indicate she's bluffing you to try to manipulate the situation again and therefore does not have the potential character to be a faithful, committed wife.
> 
> Look, @Hantei, people do make mistakes (not meaning "Oops that was a goof" but rather "That was a major cluster f*ck!"), and people can come back from a mistake...but it's very rare. Most people these days would rather rugsweep and blame others than look at themselves and do the personal work to improve and mature.


Amazing post. Required reading IMHO


----------



## sparrow555

I'm guessing more went on with the OM before the marriage than she revealed to Hantei


----------



## Hantei

Wow, so many great responses, I'll need some time to even llike them all yet alone to respond. Briefly. 

I have not commited to R - both internally to myself and to STBXW. I have just made a mental note that it seems like I have this option savailable now - in theory at least.

I have commited and re-confirmed to STBXW that separation and divorce are going ahead.

All [] items in @marduk s list have been done long ago. 

She offered all details on why and when and how it went. 

She claimed she -using TAM jargo- went NC with him. Was able to check it at least on the surface.

I still don't see any logical way of how this all can be recovered.


----------



## Decorum

Hantei,

Telling you that the "OM no longer exists" for her may be just what you want to hear.

The truth is, he did not marry you, make vows and promises to you, nor throw away years of a loving relationship or family like it had no value.

Your wife did.

It is your wifes character not the presence of the OM that is the issue.

He may have been a player, but remember your wife entered his game.

He never was the problem.

She may find true remorse, it's a slurry of fears and feelings at the moment.

I hope you can continue to find some peace and strength, and make good decisions from there.

Your getting good advice, and Affaircare is a solid woman, if someone I cared about was here she would be one of the people I would want helping that person.

I really wish you well.
Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> Wow, so many great responses, I'll need some time to even llike them all yet alone to respond. Briefly.
> 
> I have not commited to R - both internally to myself and to STBXW. I have just made a mental note that it seems like I have this option savailable now - in theory at least.
> 
> I have commited and re-confirmed to STBXW that separation and divorce are going ahead.
> 
> All [] items in @marduk s list have been done long ago.
> 
> She offered all details on why and when and how it went.
> 
> She claimed she -using TAM jargo- went NC with him. Was able to check it at least on the surface.
> 
> I still don't see any logical way of how this all can be recovered.


My brain just did a segmentation fault. 

If they've been done, your interactions with her make no sense.

You should either be in the logistics of divorce mode or logistics of reconciliation mode. 

Not in playing house mode. Or, apparently, you thinking you're going to divorce but logistically not much has changed.


----------



## GusPolinski

@Hantei, I'd like to offer the following observation really quickly...

If she stopped calling, texting, messaging, and e-mailing OM, stopped driving by his home and/or place of work, etc, only AFTER he stopped responding to her overtures and more or less dumped her...?

Well... that doesn't quite meet the standard of "going NC", now does it?

What's it worth when a convict serving a life sentence -- w/ no possibility of parole whatsoever -- turns to religion?

If you're at all inclined to reconcile, require that the framework outlined by @Affaircare a few pages back (or something very near to it) be followed to the letter.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Hi @Decorum, 

You are right in your assestment of the issue of her character. Hantei is in a tough spot trying to decide if thesis a case of a good person making a horrible choice or she has reveled who she is. The what it's, what does this really mean in the future if he reconciles is a immense burdening to carry. Regardless of his decision if he keeps his hands clean until the divorce and puts her aside gently he has acted in a moral way to me. 

As to Posm, he owes big. He could have supported his WW. He could have told her to call him after the divorce and gone NC. He is an adult in his forties, he should know what adultery does to a family BUT he chose to get laid. I help get my exWW fired and screwed in his divorce and if are paths cross again and I have an opportunity to do non-violent harm again I will do it. But, I don't live for it or look for it. I view it simply as a debt that if it can be collected without blow back I will.


----------



## Marc878

Upfront she said the SOB was what she was looking for in a man. Stands out, lives life. Now she wants back in the marriage?

This is the key to you. Why? The question you need answered is if he were still in the picture where would she be? From your posts he turned out to be a hit and run. He left her hanging. She didn't end it.

Reconciliation would be a good thing for you and yours if it's for the right reason but if she's trying to get plan B back how would you live with that????


----------



## TDSC60

Bottom line is that she was leaving you for OM - until he told her all he wanted was a f*ck buddy.

Then she went back to good old Plan B - you.

The timeline would be too much for me to take. 

He dumped her. 

If she had gone NC with him and came to her senses BEFORE he refused to get serious with her, maybe I could see a possible R. But her beautiful fantasy future with him went up in smoke and then she turns to you. Maybe you are just a comfortable, familiar option.

Ball is in your court now.


----------



## Graywolf2

Growing old with you is a privilege she doesn’t deserve.


----------



## Decorum

JohnA said:


> Hi @Decorum,
> 
> You are right in your assestment of the issue of her character. Hantei is in a tough spot trying to decide if thesis a case of a good person making a horrible choice or she has reveled who she is. The what it's, what does this really mean in the future if he reconciles is a immense burdening to carry. Regardless of his decision if he keeps his hands clean until the divorce and puts her aside gently he has acted in a moral way to me.
> 
> As to Posm, he owes big. He could have supported his WW. He could have told her to call him after the divorce and gone NC. He is an adult in his forties, he should know what adultery does to a family BUT he chose to get laid. I help get my exWW fired and screwed in his divorce and if are paths cross again and I have an opportunity to do non-violent harm again I will do it. But, I don't live for it or look for it. I view it simply as a debt that if it can be collected without blow back I will.


John,
I agree. I have no compunction with grinding the OM into dust, none whatsoever, but thats just me.

My concern was that the real issue of his WW's character not get lost in some sence of relief he might feel that she has (such as it is) cut contact with OM.

An example,
If her son ate the gingersnap cookies he promised he would not, his wife would never accept the answer, "Well Mom the cookies are all gone so they no longer pose a threat to my promise not to eat them."

This seems moot with his last reply now.

Regards,
Decorum
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hantei

marduk said:


> My brain just did a segmentation fault.
> 
> If they've been done, your interactions with her make no sense.
> 
> You should either be in the logistics of divorce mode or logistics of reconciliation mode.
> 
> Not in playing house mode. Or, apparently, you thinking you're going to divorce but logistically not much has changed.


You are right. I'm in a logistics of divorce, 99% of boxes ticked separaton wise, but as of Friday the R option is at least on the table for me. I'm not taking it atm.


----------



## Marc878

Reconciliation especially if you have kids should at least be looked at. 

The problem I have with most cases is they jump in right away without giving it much thought. Then down the road they start having big regrets or are dissapointed in the intimacy/relationship.

Some just can't live with that in their lives. However, there are cases here where it's worked out well.

All I'm saying is spend the time and effort before jumping in to make sure you have a good chance at having an actual marriage. Not just together as roommates, etc.

Wasting 2 or 3 years that never had a chance is folly. There are no guarantees but you can check some boxes to determine if it's worth a shot.


----------



## Hantei

Agree. Whatever your vs mine interpretation of NC is the facts are. 

I objected to her ask for R given that officially at least (without my background knowledge) she was in relationship with him, which caused her to terminate the marriage (skip the part her trying to convince me it's not the case). As I do not believe in the reverse sequence (she is choking in the marriage, wants out, ends up in bed with him). 

She agreed with the above sequence and reassures me she requested him not to ever contact her again. .

Later on I managed to confirm it partially (without telling her): there was an earlier email from her to him (rather hysterically angry I'd say calling) him any name in her book for his part in this.

Then he probably/likely called her with his "advanced new generation relationship " crap - can't trace it but her next email alludes to that.

then there's one from last week - very cold and official requesting no further contact in any shape or form. 

Silence since then. I missed these initially as I basically stopped snooping at that time. 







GusPolinski said:


> @Hantei, I'd like to offer the following observation really quickly...
> 
> If she stopped calling, texting, messaging, and e-mailing OM, stopped driving by his home and/or place of work, etc, only AFTER he stopped responding to her overtures and more or less dumped her...?
> 
> Well... that doesn't quite meet the standard of "going NC", now does it?
> 
> What's it worth when a convict serving a life sentence -- w/ no possibility of parole whatsoever -- turns to religion?
> 
> If you're at all inclined to reconcile, require that the framework outlined by @Affaircare a few pages back (or something very near to it) be followed to the letter.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> You are right. I'm in a logistics of divorce, 99% of boxes ticked separaton wise, but as of Friday the R option is at least on the table for me. I'm not taking it atm.


If you take a look at your first post you were taken aback that it was over without you having any say so in the matter. Just because OM dumped her isn't a reason to R. 

I would explore this a lot and take my time. Letting the separation/divorce proceed. Everyone is on your dime here.

Time as things settle out may give you more info.


----------



## Hantei

Agree. I'm just listing facts there, not trying to talk myself into a premature R.


Separation and divorce are going ahead, she knows that I made it very clear.



Marc878 said:


> Reconciliation especially if you have kids should at least be looked at.
> 
> The problem I have with most cases is they jump in right away without giving it much thought. Then down the road they start having big regrets or are dissapointed in the intimacy/relationship.
> 
> Some just can't live with that in their lives. However, there are cases here where it's worked out well.
> 
> All I'm saying is spend the time and effort before jumping in to make sure you have a good chance at having an actual marriage. Not just together as roommates, etc.
> 
> Wasting 2 or 3 years that never had a chance is folly. There are no guarantees but you can check some boxes to determine if it's worth a shot.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> Agree. Whatever your vs mine interpretation of NC is the facts are.
> 
> I objected to her ask for R given that officially at least (without my background knowledge) she was in relationship with him, which caused her to terminate the marriage (skip the part her trying to convince me it's not the case). As I do not believe in the reverse sequence (she is choking in the marriage, wants out, ends up in bed with him).
> 
> She agreed with the above sequence and reassures me she requested him not to ever contact her again. .
> 
> Later on I managed to confirm it partially (without telling her): there was an earlier email from her to him (rather hysterically angry I'd say calling) him any name in her book for his part in this.
> 
> Then he probably/likely called her with his "advanced new generation relationship " crap - can't trace it but her next email alludes to that.
> 
> then there's one from last week - very cold and official requesting no further contact in any shape or form.
> 
> Silence since then. I missed these initially as I basically stopped snooping at that time.


I think you may be missing the point that I was trying to make. That's fine, though... more on that later.

To what degree is she aware that you've been able to intercept communications between her and Mr. Enlightened D**chebag?

Either way, here's your next couple of questions for her (assuming, that is, that you're even interested in asking)...

"At what point did he lead you to believe that he wanted you to leave our marriage in order to more fully pursue a relationship w/ him?

And what did he say to lead you to believe that?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hantei

Great post, thank you. 




Affaircare said:


> Speaking as a former disloyal wife here, here are my quick thoughts:
> 
> I think it is reasonable for you to choose to reconcile if that is the choice you make of your own free will. But before you make that decision, I do think it would also be 100% reasonable to say that the cost of her adultery (call it that, because that is what it was) is that she will need to move out and for the next nine months she's on her own.


100%, she is out and separation clock is ticking although it's not 9 month yet.



> For the next nine months, you two are separated and you are WILLING to give her the chance to prove to you WITH HER ACTIONS that she means it and understands what she has done. During those nine months, she is in her own place and has her child half the time and she gets no child support or alimony or anything like that. she has to work to support herself AND figure out how to care for the child by herself AND do the hard work on herself to figure out why she did what she did AND figure out how to rebuild the marriage she destroyed.


Agreed and that's what going on atm although I'd like guidance on whatever she figures out on rebuilding the marriage - it's adequacy. I'm not sure if I can trust myself there.



> In return, you agree to file separation to protect yourself legally and financially from any shenanigans she may pull, you agree to keep and open mind and give her a chance to prove herself, and you agree to put off your decision for 9 months. If she does not do the work, you two are already separated and you just make it legal by filing. If she DOES do the work, then you're free to choose to continue building a whole ne marriage!


Once again agree with gratitude, the above comment applies.



> guess, from what I can hear in your words, is that she wants it to return to "the way it was before." Well let me tell you: the way it was before lead to adultery, and thus, that "way" is no more. Before she can meltdown and make promises and whatnot, she has to fully accept that the marriage she had before will never, ever exist again...due to her actions! If she agrees to separate, gets herself to counseling, does the personal work to become a better woman and wife, and deals with her issues...those are actions that indicate she's serious and has the potential character to be a good wife. If she blames, avoids, denies and minimizes ... those are actions that indicate she's bluffing you to try to manipulate the situation again and therefore does not have the potential character to be a faithful, committed wife.


Thank you. Again would like some help with separation of genuine effort vs manipulation. 



> , @Hantei, people do make mistakes (not meaning "Oops that was a goof" but rather "That was a major cluster f*ck!"), and people can come back from a mistake...but it's very rare. Most people these days would rather rugsweep and blame others than look at themselves and do the personal work to improve and mature.


One of the primary reasons for me posting here.

Thank you.


----------



## Marc878

Ok I'm confused. From earlier posts it seemed that once you did the exposure he disappeared basically saying he'd never intended on a long term relationship.

Is that not the case?


----------



## Hantei

Don't think she is aware.

Great questions - but I'm not in the mood for asking anything. All the above info has been offered to me - plus anything else I'd want to know. Didn't ask.





GusPolinski said:


> I think you may be missing the point that I was trying to make. That's fine, though... more on that later.
> 
> To what degree is she aware that you've been able to intercept communications between her and Mr. Enlightened D**chebag?
> 
> Either way, here's your next couple of questions for her (assuming, that is, that you're even interested in asking)...
> 
> "At what point did he lead you to believe that he wanted you to leave our marriage in order to more fully pursue a relationship w/ him?
> 
> And what did he say to lead you to believe that?"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> Ok I'm confused. From earlier posts it seemed that once you did the exposure he disappeared basically saying he'd never intended on a long term relationship.
> 
> Is that not the case?


Correct, after giving her some "advanced " mantra. Then she sent email #1 he presumably responded with the same (or she is referring the previous message) then NC email #2.


----------



## Marc878

Marc878 said:


> Ok I'm confused. From earlier posts it seemed that once you did the exposure he disappeared basically saying he'd never intended on a long term relationship.
> 
> Is that not the case?





Hantei said:


> Correct, after giving her some "advanced " mantra. Then she sent email #1 he presumably responded with the same (or she is referring the previous message) then NC email #2.


Ok, got it. So you haven't looked at R so the all important question what if he was still involved and was open to a LT commitment hasn't been asked. Fair enough.

I like the idea of just listening. For now.


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> Ok, got it. So you haven't looked at R so the all important question what if he was still involved and was open to a LT commitment hasn't been asked. Fair enough.
> 
> I like the idea of just listening. For now.


Exactly. Untill last 2 weeks I was 100% in she's moving on why bother mode. 85% for the last 2 weeks as some of TAM people predicted she may be pushing for R soon 

Since Friday I'm just saying ok she wants R for whatever reason - and listening.


----------



## Marduk

TDSC60 said:


> Bottom line is that she was leaving you for OM - until he told her all he wanted was a f*ck buddy.
> 
> Then she went back to good old Plan B - you.
> 
> The timeline would be too much for me to take.
> 
> He dumped her.
> 
> If she had gone NC with him and came to her senses BEFORE he refused to get serious with her, maybe I could see a possible R. But her beautiful fantasy future with him went up in smoke and then she turns to you. Maybe you are just a comfortable, familiar option.
> 
> Ball is in your court now.


I think if he even wanted her as a f buddy she'd have taken just that. 

He didn't even want that. Maybe because of baggage, maybe because when H found out it wasn't fun any more. Or maybe he just got bored of her. 

At any rate, it isn't because she didn't want him.


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> Exactly. Untill last 2 weeks I was 100% in she's moving on why bother mode. 85% for the last 2 weeks as some of TAM people predicted she may be pushing for R soon
> 
> Since Friday I'm just saying ok she wants R for whatever reason - and listening.


Ask her why you should take her back. 

If she responds in any way that has to do with what she wants instead of what you deserve, you have a clear answer.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei, you are doing fine. 

R happens on your terms. 

Cool, firm and dispassionate in all of your interactions. 
@Affaircare has the best course of action IMO, but it is your life. Do what you can stomach.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

marduk said:


> I think if he even wanted her as a f buddy she'd have taken just that.
> 
> He didn't even want that. Maybe because of baggage, maybe because when H found out it wasn't fun any more. Or maybe he just got bored of her.
> 
> At any rate, it isn't because she didn't want him.


I don't want to copy and paste messages but my take on it is that he wanted her exactly as a f buddy. That is what his "advanced people just [email protected]$#ch" mantra 
Basically when she moved out and start being upset he used exactly these words - she stopped being fun (cutting his emotional crap out). So you are spot on here.

In other words she moved out, started to realise that this all is not fun anymore, started having 2nd thoughts about him and the whole conundrum and he brilliantly confirm her 2nd thoughts by pulling out (I'd like to think my vice mail played a part).

I think they deserve each other.

I know I'm not making all this crystal clear. I'll try to put an updated end to end view later. Especially if she tells me "all" as promised if anyone is interested.


----------



## Hantei

marduk said:


> Ask her why you should take her back.
> 
> If she responds in any way that has to do with what she wants instead of what you deserve, you have a clear answer.


I will as soon as I ready to ask any questions. So far I haven't asked a single. Even that one I mentioned was rhetoric- was just calling her BS.


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> I will as soon as I ready to ask any questions. So far I haven't asked a single. Even that one I mentioned was rhetoric- was just calling her BS.




I think that you're smart not asking questions now. Your focus is: you and how to recover. Her focus: who knows but you already have your hands full (unwillingly might I add)

Why even deal with the drama of 'is she serious?', 'what if her boyfriend didn't flake on her would we even be talking?', 'can I live with R?'. That's why I loved affaircare's suggestion - you get yourself right on your schedule and as an added benefit during that time many of those questions will have become apparent by her self-driven actions


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> I don't want to copy and paste messages but my take on it is that he wanted her exactly as a f buddy. That is what his "advanced people just [email protected]$#ch" mantra
> Basically when she moved out and start being upset he used exactly these words - she stopped being fun (cutting his emotional crap out). So you are spot on here.
> 
> In other words she moved out, started to realise that this all is not fun anymore, started having 2nd thoughts about him and the whole conundrum and he brilliantly confirm her 2nd thoughts by pulling out (I'd like to think my vice mail played a part).
> 
> I think they deserve each other.
> 
> I know I'm not making all this crystal clear. I'll try to put an updated end to end view later. Especially if she tells me "all" as promised if anyone is interested.


I would be very interested in hearing it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Satya

Hantei, I have a question. 

Has your wife (to your knowledge) ever lived alone, or been on her own, totally independent in every adult way conceivable, for more than a year in her life? 

The reason I ask is, some women have literally never been alone since birth, so attention in all forms is like a drug, and they "bore" easily. I have a good female friend like this, and I have really tuned her in to satisfying her own needs instead of looking to a man to fill those missing pieces or moments of boredom. It's amazing how much happier she is (and how much happier her partner is) for this discovery of self gratification. 

A woman that owns her shyt, holds her head high, admits her failings, improves from them, and KNOWS she can and should carry on even if you want to divorce her is different than a woman that desperately holds onto your leg as you show her the door.

Im not encouraging analysis paralysis, I just want you to think about how healthy she is or is not in this regard. I believe the sexes make a great partnership if and only if they have learned to be self sufficient apart. If you care enough to help her, I encourage you to let her discover how to do this. She can't learn it with you or from you, but only on her own. It's an amazingly valuable lesson.


----------



## Hantei

I tell you what: the answer to your question is likely to be "no". So I think your are "amazingly" (stealing your word) right in your subsequent analysis. 
There were periods when I was working alone, she was running all our internal logistics very well, good career, great mother - but this is not what are we talking about, right? That was rhetorical. 

More I think about the situation, more I look into posts here (including yours and @Affaircare more I am starting to understand that offering me R "on my terms" and "everything I want" may not be enough. She will have to step-up to be her Mk2. On her own. 

At least that is how I am (mis) interpreting your post.

Thank you.





Satya said:


> Hantei, I have a question.
> 
> Has your wife (to your knowledge) ever lived alone, or been on her own, totally independent in every adult way conceivable, for more than a year in her life?
> 
> The reason I ask is, some women have literally never been alone since birth, so attention in all forms is like a drug, and they "bore" easily. I have a good female friend like this, and I have really tuned her in to satisfying her own needs instead of looking to a man to fill those missing pieces or moments of boredom. It's amazing how much happier she is (and how much happier her partner is) for this discovery of self gratification.
> 
> A woman that owns her shyt, holds her head high, admits her failings, improves from them, and KNOWS she can and should carry on even if you want to divorce her is different than a woman that desperately holds onto your leg as you show her the door.
> 
> Im not encouraging analysis paralysis, I just want you to think about how healthy she is or is not in this regard. I believe the sexes make a great partnership if and only if they have learned to be self sufficient apart. If you care enough to help her, I encourage you to let her discover how to do this. She can't learn it with you or from you, but only on her own. It's an amazingly valuable lesson.


----------



## Decorum

Satya said:


> Hantei, I have a question.
> 
> Has your wife (to your knowledge) ever lived alone, or been on her own, totally independent in every adult way conceivable, for more than a year in her life?
> 
> The reason I ask is, some women have literally never been alone since birth, so attention in all forms is like a drug, and they "bore" easily. I have a good female friend like this, and I have really tuned her in to satisfying her own needs instead of looking to a man to fill those missing pieces or moments of boredom. It's amazing how much happier she is (and how much happier her partner is) for this discovery of self gratification.
> 
> A woman that owns her shyt, holds her head high, admits her failings, improves from them, and KNOWS she can and should carry on even if you want to divorce her is different than a woman that desperately holds onto your leg as you show her the door.
> 
> Im not encouraging analysis paralysis, I just want you to think about how healthy she is or is not in this regard. I believe the sexes make a great partnership if and only if they have learned to be self sufficient apart. If you care enough to help her, I encourage you to let her discover how to do this. She can't learn it with you or from you, but only on her own. It's an amazingly valuable lesson.


A very eye opening question!

Hantei, 
Please do post an end to end it would be very helpful, its getting a bit confusing now. Thanks


----------



## Hantei

Hey mate,

Thanks for posting here, I did check on your thread as well. 

Thanks for the warm words. Good luck and respect for the strength you've shown. 

H.

I l


Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Hantei sir, I have been following your story. You are a good man. I have been in your shoes and I know the devastating effects on one when they find out the woman they love has betrayed them in the worst way possible. As others have said the 180 is the best action you can take.
> 
> I am under the assumption that you may be slightly on the fence about reconciliation. Be patient as you go through this process and as much as possible step back and think through any action she is involved in.
> I think you will be able to tell if she is remorseful or not. If you sense that she is proceed with caution.
> 
> I am going on my fourth month of r right now, and fortunately all is going far better than I anticipated. My wife apologized to me profusely and told me if I could find it in my heart to take her back she would make it all up to me. I was ready to bolt, but was able to get to a point of clarity where it appears you are. Only you know how you feel, and probably have a good read on her. From what I am reading she is not truly remorseful about her actions as my wife was.
> 
> Right now the most important issue to deal with is your son. I have two grown children and their mothers actions devastated them. I can only imagine it has been much worse on your son. Be there for him all you can. Stay strong.


----------



## Marduk

eric1 said:


> I think that you're smart not asking questions now. Your focus is: you and how to recover. Her focus: who knows but you already have your hands full (unwillingly might I add)
> 
> Why even deal with the drama of 'is she serious?', 'what if her boyfriend didn't flake on her would we even be talking?', 'can I live with R?'. That's why I loved affaircare's suggestion - you get yourself right on your schedule and as an added benefit during that time many of those questions will have become apparent by her self-driven actions


I think asking one deep question like that would put her back on her heels. Especially if he asked it quietly, slowly, while looking in her eyes. Without an ounce of aggression or pain or pity or emotion of any kind. 

And then just walking away. 

She'll come back with some long drawn out answer that will scream "I want my life back" instead of "you deserve better than I've treated you."

And then he will know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> I will as soon as I ready to ask any questions. So far I haven't asked a single. Even that one I mentioned was rhetoric- was just calling her BS.


Oh and she'll likely say "for the kids." And try to put that on you. 

You ready for that, hoss?

Because what that really is, is transference of guilt and shame.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mike11

I would say at this stage there is no any need to make any decision, I say, her actions will speak volumes and by moving the Divorce logistics without expecting any answers and asking the questions he is showing her that he is dealing with this from a point of great strength and resolve and shows his detachment, I am willing to place a bet that this is causing her some serious heartache, however i think the best policy for Hantei in this situation is play the waiting game, he has nothing to lose actually, only to gain an additional option when the 9 month arrives, this is a big test for her and a chance to show how committed she is for saving the marriage without any further emotional "taxation" on Hantei, however If I need to take a guess, I am almost certain that the Douche will show his ugly head again trying to get his way with her saying all the right stuff and playing her, and this will be the another real test for her.


----------



## Tron

I am a little confused. The questions that you want to ask but haven't, did she offer to give you answers or did she actually give you the answers without you asking?

One of the first things I learned when I got to TAM that Conrad and a few others drilled was to be patient and WATCH WHAT THEY DO, NOT WHAT THEY SAY.


----------



## Hantei

Tron said:


> I am a little confused. The questions that you want to ask but haven't, did she offer to give you answers or did she actually give you the answers without you asking?
> 
> One of the first things I learned when I got to TAM that Conrad and a few others drilled was to be patient and WATCH WHAT THEY DO, NOT WHAT THEY SAY.


She gave me some info (not calling it answers as it was not in response to my questions) and - after I politely stopped it (which actually triggered her meltdown) offered me all information I want or need to hear as a part of her commitment to "get me back".

I know it's confusing, just need some time to put it together.


----------



## Be smart

I see big problem here my friend. She gave you all informations and stories that YOU WANT TO HEAR. She thinks she can win you back telling you half of the truth. There is a lot more and she is not ready to share it with you

I dont see anything good about her and how sorry she was. She is only sorry because her "dream guy" dumped her so she wants you back now. 
Be careful.

Stay strong


----------



## Mike11

I think WW who would want to reconcile will be honest and tell the truth no matter how much it hurts the BS, Hantei, do you think she is capable of doing so if and when you will ask her directly ?


----------



## TDSC60

Four question that have to be answered.
1. Why does she want to return to a marriage where she was stifled or smothered or confined for years or whatever the term was that she used?
2. Why does she want to return to a marriage with a man who does not measure up to the type of man she wants/needs?
3. Why does she want a marriage with a man who she is not in love with? (If she was truly in love with you, she would not have given OM the time of day).
4. Why does she want to return to a marriage where she was so unhappy that she had an affair and walked out?


----------



## TDSC60

marduk said:


> Oh and she'll likely say "for the kids." And try to put that on you.
> 
> You ready for that, hoss?
> 
> Because what that really is, is transference of guilt and shame.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree that she will attempt to guilt him in some way.

But the kid is 15 years old. In a couple of years he will be so tied up with friends and girls that he will have more or less left the home anyway.


----------



## Hantei

Ok, here is my 1st attempt to piece together the recent events. I have no stance at the moment with regards to if I am reconciling (likely not ATM) and if she is being honest (possible, at least I was able to verify some facts). I have subscribed to the "wait-and-see actions-180-dont stop separation tactics" for now.

- I was determined to stop that "normalcy" in our interactions during her routine visit on Friday. However being conflict avoidant with her (as someone noted I am or was conflict avoidant only with her, I'm probably the opposite with anyone else, which even caused me troubles at certain stages of my career) I didn't actually go big bang as suggested and started with something small - e.g. proposing some formal framework around her visits (like the notice via SMS when she is late), telling her I'll be trying my best to be away from home when she is visiting, etc. 
- Her reaction to that was not exactly what I was expecting - basically she begged me to allow her to talk. I agreed (well actually did not object) and she started talking "history" - how she met him, how they ended up, etc. - basically what I'm going to list as the "timeline" in another post.
- After listening for some time I have politely interrupted her by asking why is she telling me all of this and in what capacity am I expected to be listening to this. E.g. I'm not in fact her husband as she walked out of the marriage and we are in separation (I urged her in a raised voice not to put a cart ahead of a horse here, she admitted I'm right), I'm not her girlfriend or soulmate (as she has been complaining about the lack of emotional connection) so I'm not sure what am I supposed to do with the info.
- Her reaction to that I'd call disproportional emotional meltdown. Skipping tears, sobbing, biting the edge of a glass with water, son ordered to stay in the room, yada yada, she - without any push or coercion from my side:
* Admitted her fault in all this conundrum and (tried to) reassure me that I have nothing to blame myself for.
* Told me she realises now that all this emotional connection and artistic staff is BS she is responsible for getting herself in and all consequences and hurt to me and the kid are on her.
* Asked me to consider giving her second chance and while she realises some things cannot be un-damaged (her sleeping with another man), she would like at least to try. She is not asking for me to stop separation but appreciates if from time to time I can allow her to talk "about us". She is willing to apologise to the family and selected friends in person and in my presence. She will cut connection with anyone who sort of supported her in her "moving on" with SOB (some friends of her). This includes my MIL (who actually was not supporting her moving on, just because of her role in this). She'd like to keep relationship with her father but will limit that if I object. She will have no contact with non-related males apart from work (most of her colleagues are female). She is willing to answer all my questions with all details and is happy to be totally transparent. She will comply with anything else as soon as I ask - basically R on my terms.
Never mentioned our son in a "think about him" context, only how sorry she is he's hurt by her.

The above is a structured as it gets from me.


----------



## Marc878

Did she tell you how long the affair was ?

Who knew it was going on?


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> Did she tell you how long the affair was ?
> 
> Who knew it was going on?


Yes. I'm trying to assemble some sort of a timeline. And yes (referring MIL and STBXW friend from my last long post).


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Hantei said:


> Marc878 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did she tell you how long the affair was ?
> 
> Who knew it was going on?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. I'm trying to assemble some sort of a timeline. And yes (referring MIL and STBXW friend from my last long post).
Click to expand...

Hantei sir, get a
Polygraph if you have an inclination to r. A must. It will help you in long run.


----------



## bfree

Well Hantei, if nothing else it certainly seems as if you'll have answers to most of your questions when all is said and done. Which is more than most betrayed spouses ever get. Get as much info as you need and take as much time as you need.


----------



## Graywolf2

Hantei said:


> *I can't honestly say I have had any doubts prior to the discovery.
> *
> Eventually she opened up with the following: that she is sorry she's hurt me, *I'm a wonderful man and a great husband, she can't fault me and still loves me but last couple of years(? WTF) she felt chocked in the marriage*.


She wasn't "choked in the marriage" until the OM showed up. That was her rationalization for having an affair. Now that the OM dumped her she's suddenly un-choked and will walk over hot coals for the marriage she didn't want. What happens if another OM shows up? 

If you were already a “great husband” how can you improve to insure she doesn’t cheat again? 

Keep on your current path and get a divorce. That’s a no brainer. Once the divorce is final you can evaluate things. Never remarry her but live with her if you want. That way she will have paid a price for tossing you aside. 

Personally I would have a much easier time getting along with her as my girlfriend than as my wife. A girlfriend cheating on you is less devastating than a wife cheating on you. Plus it’s easier to walk away if she does. *“Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.”*


----------



## eric1

This is nasty business. As if being betrayed by the one person you could trust is bad enough you're 'rewarded' with having the answer a question with no answer.

A big smelly poop is what it is


----------



## MovingFrwrd

double post


----------



## MovingFrwrd

Hantei said:


> Ok, here is my 1st attempt to piece together the recent events. I have no stance at the moment with regards to if I am reconciling (likely not ATM) and if she is being honest (possible, at least I was able to verify some facts). I have subscribed to the "wait-and-see actions-180-dont stop separation tactics" for now.
> 
> - I was determined to stop that "normalcy" in our interactions during her routine visit on Friday. However being conflict avoidant with her (as someone noted I am or was conflict avoidant only with her, I'm probably the opposite with anyone else, which even caused me troubles at certain stages of my career) I didn't actually go big bang as suggested and started with something small - e.g. proposing some formal framework around her visits (like the notice via SMS when she is late), telling her I'll be trying my best to be away from home when she is visiting, etc.
> - Her reaction to that was not exactly what I was expecting - basically she begged me to allow her to talk. I agreed (well actually did not object) and she started talking "history" - how she met him, how they ended up, etc. - basically what I'm going to list as the "timeline" in another post.
> - After listening for some time I have politely interrupted her by asking why is she telling me all of this and in what capacity am I expected to be listening to this. E.g. I'm not in fact her husband as she walked out of the marriage and we are in separation (I urged her in a raised voice not to put a cart ahead of a horse here, she admitted I'm right), I'm not her girlfriend or soulmate (as she has been complaining about the lack of emotional connection) so I'm not sure what am I supposed to do with the info.
> - Her reaction to that I'd call disproportional emotional meltdown. Skipping tears, sobbing, biting the edge of a glass with water, son ordered to stay in the room, yada yada, she - without any push or coercion from my side:
> * *Admitted her fault in all this conundrum and (tried to) reassure me that I have nothing to blame myself for.* This is a good start
> * *Told me she realises now that all this emotional connection and artistic staff is BS she is responsible for getting herself in and all consequences and hurt to me and the kid are on her. * This is also a good thing
> * Asked me to consider giving her second chance and while she realises some things cannot be un-damaged (her sleeping with another man), she would like at least to try. She is not asking for me to stop separation but appreciates if from time to time I can allow her to talk "about us". She is willing to apologise to the family and selected friends in person and in my presence. She will cut connection with anyone who sort of supported her in her "moving on" with SOB (some friends of her). This includes my MIL (who actually was not supporting her moving on, just because of her role in this). She'd like to keep relationship with her father but will limit that if I object. She will have no contact with non-related males apart from work (most of her colleagues are female). She is willing to answer all my questions with all details and is happy to be totally transparent. She will comply with anything else as soon as I ask - basically R on my terms.
> Never mentioned our son in a "think about him" context, *only how sorry she is he's hurt by her.* Probably the most sincere thing I could point out - owning it and feeling guilt for the son
> 
> The above is a structured as it gets from me.


I can't say do it or not. I've read and heard from counselors that you need to way 3-6 weeks before making any major decisions regarding D or R.

You're beyond that point if I follow your thread correctly.

She's presenting what she needs to in order to try and get you back.

Proceed with extreme caution. D is not off the table. R is a remote possibility.


On a side note - these things are encouraging to hear if you've been on the fence because I'm sure you don't truly want to rip your life apart. I've been there. But you've got to be careful.

Will she:

-Make her own timeline for you
-you need to at least bring up the Polygraph. (rip me for this one, I was against it) But, the threat of it can reveal quite a bit. I did and she was all for it.
-Turn over access to e-mail and such and become transparent?
-Step up as mother and wife?
-Go to counseling?
-Answer any questions - and all your questions no matter how many times you ask the same ones - any time you need to ask?
-Work to repair her and your relationship with your son?

It sounds like she's been doing some soul searching. You need to as well. I'm not quite sure you weren't plan 'B' or even C in her mind.

But - maybe the fog has lifted. Maybe she's realizing the damage that she's done and wants to atone for it. 

I don't think she's ready or realizes all that it entails. Heck - no WS knows what R truly entails. It's a LONG road. She's going to have to weather a lot. I don't see how you've been able yet to even begin to unravel your own anger towards her.

Again - proceed with caution.


----------



## bandit.45

Graywolf2 said:


> She wasn't "choked in the marriage" until the OM showed up. That was her rationalization for having an affair. Now that the OM dumped her she's suddenly un-choked and will walk over hot coals for the marriage she didn't want. What happens if another OM shows up?
> 
> If you were already a “great husband” how can you improve to insure she doesn’t cheat again?
> 
> Keep on your current path and get a divorce. That’s a no brainer. Once the divorce is final you can evaluate things. Never remarry her but live with her if you want. That way she will have paid a price for tossing you aside.
> 
> Personally I would have a much easier time getting along with her as my girlfriend than as my wife. Also a girlfriend cheating on you is less devastating than a wife cheating on you. Plus it’s easier to walk away if she does. *“Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.”*


This.


----------



## Graywolf2

She always wanted the security of you as plan B. That’s why she was disappointed that you didn’t fight for her even as she was making it clear that she didn’t want you. 

The "normalcy" in your interactions let her assume that plan B was still viable. There would be a successful rug sweep and she could gradually slip back into your life as if nothing happened.



Hantei said:


> I started with something small - e.g. proposing some formal framework around her visits (like the notice via SMS when she is late), telling her I'll be trying my best to be away from home when she is visiting, etc.
> 
> Her reaction to that I'd call disproportional emotional meltdown. Skipping tears, sobbing, biting the edge of a glass with water, son ordered to stay in the room, yada yada,


The above let her know that you would not be her plan B and she freaked out.

EVOLUTION OF PLAN B:
1.	Something she desired just in case.
2.	Something she could easily get without much effort.
3.	Something she must have and will do anything to obtain.


----------



## 86857

It's a start Hantei. You know where she is at finally. I think the A is 100% over. There's remorse but too early to say if it's enough as she has to walk the talk. 

You need to work out is whether you are Plan B which will be difficult. Maybe posters can give their thoughts on that based on what she says & does from now on. 

If you D, will her standard of living decrease dramatically? It's often a factor in R, shouldn't be but is. 

You need to know when you decide to ask her stuff, why for 2 years she felt unhappy in the marriage & didn't tell you. And what was the cause of it. 

I would ask her not to bring things up when she's at your home. Tell her you can meet elsewhere for discussions. Son had to be told to stay in his room. Not good. He may have heard some of the exchange. Not good either. You must tell her that she can't be weeping etc as it's unfair to him. Kids of any age hate that. Moms & Dads are their rock. Different if done when a grandpa/grandma passes etc. Great that you seem to be able to keep calm in those situations. Not easy. You are the rock for your son atm & you're giving him a great gift with that. It is also a great life lesson for him to see someone staying calm under duress. Well done because you are probably as angry now as you were on D-day. 
You're doing great, the 180 which is so counterintuitive but works, didn't leave the home, the separation is underway & now trying to de-normalise. Stay on course & no need to rush anything. 

Maybe try to sit quietly with yourself & work out if you can get past this & R. Hard to work out without actually being in R but in threads here, even a very recent one, BS has such a hard time forgetting, even if WS is 100% remorseful. How could they. If you get all the details from her, it may help you to decide. I would polygraph her. If she's desperate to get you back, she may be tempted not to give you all the details. 

Look after you and your son. Lots of treats & chill-out time & hope you get on the water in that boat of yours. Would be calming I'd say. 

Are you getting used to her not being at the house? That part is tough. Because you do need to experience what it's like when she's not there at all, like being out of the house when she calls by as you suggested. It may help you with R decision too. Even now, though I don't miss my ex, I do miss having the company of another adult.


----------



## bandit.45

This is the most dangerous time for you H. 

She may very well be sincere that she doesn't want to lose the marriage. She seems to be owning her sh!t. But that still means nothing, because if in a few more weeks she cannot come out and say that she still loves you and wants to be "in love" with you again, on her own volition and without you prompting her, her pleas are really empty. 

Any two people can get married and stay married. Marriage is a business contract. It is a partnership. But that doesn't equate love and passion. 

Somewhere along the line, she lost her passion and attraction to you. She needs to explain to you why. 

Somewhere along the line she decided that respecting you, and cherishing the love you had for her, wer not important priorities to her anymore. 

Somewhere along the line you ceased to be her lover and confidante. It may have been when she met the OM, or this may have occurred well before. 

What I'm getting at is, it's ok to have her do a timeline of the affair. But she also needs to do a timeline of what was happening with her before the affair. Somewhere along the line there was a disconnect, and if she is going to change herself, she needs to figure out when and why that disconnect happened, and why she didn't care enough to halt it. Then she needs a good pro-marriage counselor to help her figure out how not to let that happen in her future relationships. 

I support you in not wanting to halt the D. Again I say let it run its course, let her try to be your girlfriend again, with no promises that you will stick around. Let her chase you. Let her work to earn back your trust and affection, again...no promises from you.


----------



## bandit.45

And the next time you talk, ask her why, if she had not been happy in the marriage for two years leading up to her affair, why didn't she divorce you first and then find a boyfriend? Why did she have to humiliate you? That to me would be the million dollar question she needs to answer.


----------



## alte Dame

Oy vey.

H., I thought it would all go this way. Your WW's behavior was so high-school that the A had to have a very short shelf life. 'She's in lurve with a sexy artiste!' For a month. And then it's tears and heartbreak retold dozens of time to the girlfriends in the girl's room.

I will risk opprobrium here by saying that I feel sorry for her. This sort of immaturity is almost pathetic. Do you feel like a parent right now? @Satya was on the money, in my opinion, about her lack of experience with living an independent life, something that develops maturity and responsibility.

I can see that R might be something that you would want to try. It's completely understandable. The advice to wait and watch is good, I think, but I also think that she has essentially nuked your marriage. Sorry, but you now have a completely different wife to live with and I doubt that you will want to be with this new version, with all your knowledge of what she has inside her head and heart.

I do feel sorry for her. Mostly, I feel so sorry for what she has done to you and your family. This is so undeserved. Once the drama settles down, I think you will feel the tragedy of it. It's so pointless and unnecessary, yet it is now your life.

So, watch and wait. Keep getting your ducks in line. Go on with your life. I agree with the others. Stick with the separation.

Ugh.


----------



## Graywolf2

bandit.45 said:


> And the next time you talk, ask her why, if she had not been happy in the marriage for two years leading up to her affair, why didn't she divorce you first and then find a boyfriend? Why did she have to humiliate you? That to me would be the million dollar question she needs to answer.


My guess is that she didn't know she was unhappy until the OM came along. Like alte Dame said "high school."


----------



## bandit.45

Graywolf2 said:


> My guess is that she didn't know she was unhappy until the OM came along.


Maybe. 

Or she just didn't give a fvck.


----------



## sparrow555

Where was it that you read how emotional the sex was between the OM and her ? Or did she say it to your face?


I do feel bad for her and it does look that she is coming around..but sometimes with things like this....


----------



## JohnA

It is amazing how in the face of silence will cause people to reveal or offer more than they would have when they if asked. The 180 and being neutral and non-committal is working well for you. 

If you are not interested in dating anyone at this time offer to agree to not seeing the opposite sex if she does. Not because you want to reconcile but rather not muddy things up at the current time.


----------



## becareful

JohnA said:


> If you are interested in dating anyone at this time offer to agree to not seeing the opposite sex if she does. Not because you want to reconcile but rather not muddy things up at the current time.


Or maybe don't say anything about dating other people and just watch to see if she will date anyone during this time. If she does, then OP gets his question answered about how serious she is with R.


----------



## Tron

H,

I see a lot of folks suggesting that you continue to detach. And while that has some merit, I would consider sticking with the old visitation program and hanging around a bit. The purpose of which would be to experience the emotions you feel as you interact. 

You might even consider a VAR to record the interactions to play back for later. I realize that this sounds kind of creepy, but because you are having trouble recollecting what is happening and organizing your thoughts, I think that you might pick up on some things, cues etc. pretty quickly on where she is really at and her true state of mind when listening the second time around.

I also wonder if it might be worth it to tell her:

"I heard you and appreciate your candor and honesty the other night.

The thing is, you are like a stock with a long history of bad performance. I think, at this point, I owe it to myself to look around and see if there is something better out there worth investing in. I am not shutting you down or telling you that things are hopeless, but rather you are welcome to try and convince me that there is something left here to build on, I don't believe that at the moment. That's kind of where I am at right now." 

Then observe. I am not saying to go out and date others, although you are certainly within your rights to do that. I think it's important to send the message that she must be willing to fight for you. You'll find out pretty quickly the extent to which she is willing to go to keep you.


----------



## JohnA

I very much understand the desire for "turn around is far play" but the truth is it only adds to the drama so avoid it.


----------



## eric1

Tron said:


> H,
> 
> I see a lot of folks suggesting that you continue to detach. And while that has some merit, I would consider sticking with the old visitation program and hanging around a bit. The purpose of which would be to experience the emotions you feel as you interact.
> 
> You might even consider a VAR to record the interactions to play back for later. I realize that this sounds kind of creepy, but because you are having trouble recollecting what is happening and organizing your thoughts, I think that you might pick up on some things, cues etc. pretty quickly on where she is really at and her true state of mind when listening the second time around.
> 
> I also wonder if it might be worth it to tell her:
> 
> "I heard you and appreciate your candor and honesty the other night.
> 
> The thing is, you are like a stock with a long history of bad performance. I think, at this point, I owe it to myself to look around and see if there is something better out there worth investing in. I am not shutting you down or telling you that things are hopeless, but rather you are welcome to try and convince me that there is something left here to build on, I don't believe that at the moment. That's kind of where I am at right now."
> 
> Then observe. I am not saying to go out and dare others, although you are certainly within your rights to do that. I think it's important to send the message that she must be willing to fight for you. You'll find out pretty quickly the extent to which she is willing to go to keep you.




I disagree on the detachment thing. The primary motivator for the detachment is for the benefit of the child and to give his life some definition. 

I do agree on that with most betrayeds it's healthiest to go through with divorce and then to level the playing field. A woman without morals, even in marriage, can get laid whenever. A man in his 40s, legit nice and reasonably attractive can find a decent mate reasonably quickly. The converse does not hold true.

By leveling the playing field it allows the betrayed to not be operating from a position of fear of abandonment and being alone. It also codifies the dissolution of the marriage that they betrayed unilaterally decided on. That the consequences are most severe for her is just a nice benefit.


----------



## eric1

I also don't understand how the affair got started. Did her mom set them up for coffee or something?


----------



## Hantei

eric1 said:


> I also don't understand how the affair got started. Did her mom set them up for coffee or something?


Yes. She did.


----------



## bandit.45

IF you two get back together....which I am now hoping you do not....at the very least the MIL needs to go.

But that is beside the point. 

I have changed my mind on this one. I'm going to go against the grain here. Like many of the members here I was leaning towards the side of eventual reconciliation AFTER divorce, where the two of you would allow time to smooth over the pain and hurt during the separation period and then start off a new and fresh relationship as two single people. 

Looking at it realistically, I just don't see that working. First off, the breadth and depth of her betrayal was so blatant and disrespectful that I cannot fathom Hantei ever fully recovering with his self respect intact. This woman didn't just cheat on him, she rubbed her love for her lover in his face and shamed him. No self respecting male ever gets over that. 

Secondly, I'm still not getting any kind of vibe of remorse coming off her, and I hope Hantei is smart enough to see through the tears and snot. She's scared, embarrassed and desperate... but those don't add up to remorse and empathy. For whatever reason, she wanted out of the marriage well over two years ago. Now that her house of cards has collapsed and she is back living with her mom, she sees that she never had a leg to stand on if she had just left Hantei outright without the cheating. No, she hedged all her bets on OM, who of course was only using her. She is a victim of her own short sightedness and bad planning. So now she's back to where she was when she was in college. Still dependent on mom to provide her with a bed. No real home. She has reverted. Why should Hantei have to reach out and save her? She wanted to leave the marriage. Her affair with OM was as much an exit affair as anything. That much is clear to me now. 

Personally, I think she is looking for a handout. She wants Hantei to take her back, play nice, play the happy family, while she makes her plans to leave him again once she gets her feet under her. I don't believe she has any intention of sticking with him for the long haul. I think she is setting him up for a royal hosing. 

Hantei needs to heal and move on. This marriage, the whole relationship, needs to be buried. They can learn to co-parent their son for the next few years until the boy leaves home. There is a vast world of lovely single women for Hantei to look for a new companion who he hopefully can trust. I hope he looks outside Oz.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Hantei said:


> eric1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also don't understand how the affair got started. Did her mom set them up for coffee or something?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. She did.
Click to expand...

I would make sure FIL knows his wife's actions in helping their daughter destroy the lives of their grandson.
As well as the BIL and any siblings of hers.


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> Yes. She did.


That is what she told you considering your bad relationship with MIL. She could be playing the contempt you two have for one another conveniently.


----------



## Tron

I think it is worth looking into how she is wired. If she isn't wired for R, it will show pretty quickly and H won't ever second guess himself. R is extremely tough and some folks simply don't have the mental or emotional fortitude or commitment to stick with it. 

So far she is offering to cut toxic people out of her life, including her mother (that is pretty big IMO) and be completely transparent. Those are a few of the 'non-negotiables' that we TAM'ers always suggest. It's a start. If she is able to follow through on those that's great and will be good for her long-term even if the two of them don't get back together. But those IMO are really some of the easier things to do. 

I'm kind of interested though in what she proposes to do to figure her $hit out. Simply saying "I was stupid and it was all a bunch of BS" doesn't really dig deep enough for me.


----------



## Marduk

Seems too easy.

Listen man it all reads textbook exactly what she should say. So that's good. 

Except it reads cold. Which isn't good. 

Any history of your wife being manipulative to get what she wants?

Because it literally reads like she picked up a book and told you exactly what it said to tell you to have a shot at reconciliation. 

I guess it just doesn't sound sincere. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Be smart

It is your life and your decision my friend,but please be careful. It was like yesterday when your wife told you she wants another life that you cant provide. You were never her dream boy,she got bored and she wanted something else,more exciting bla bla. She talked with her mother so both of them decided you are not good enough for her. They never thought about you or your son and how would you feel. 

She even attacked you when you speak with your son and told him the truth. She blamed you and accused you for hurting your family.

Suddenly she change her story and she wants you back once again. She is living with her parents like some 18 year old,have money problems,OM dumped her and she no longer find him and sees him as a dream boy. 
She is asking for another chance but to be honest it is kinda late now. Two years ago she could talk with you and you could solve your problems and have a nice life without hurt and pain.

I am sure she is sorry now but not sorry for how she treated you. Remember your posts where you wrote that you think she is glad this Marriage is over and stuff like that. She is only sorry because she lost you in one hand and her dream boy on other hand. She have no idea where she stands now or what she wants from her life.

All I am asking is to be careful. Maybe your wife is playing with you and your feelings at this moment. 

Stay strong.


----------



## TDSC60

She burned the Hantei bridge too soon. Now that her fantasy future is blown to hell, she is turning around and trying to cross the bridge she destroyed.

I'm with those that say her attempt to lure you back does not seem sincere.

Did she ever say a word about WHY she wants to save the marriage? I get the tearful "I am sorry", "All my fault", "I caused all the pain & suffering" and all that is fine. But did she ever say "I love you Hantei". Or was it all "sorry for what I did, now how can I get back what I threw away"?


----------



## Graywolf2

bandit.45 said:


> Hantei needs to heal and move on. This marriage, the whole relationship, needs to be buried. They can learn to co-parent their son for the next few years until the boy leaves home. There is a vast world of lovely single women for Hantei to look for a new companion who he hopefully can trust. I hope he looks outside Oz.


Bandit may be right about the above being your best option. I was not recommending that you continue your relationship with your wife. All I was saying is that if you decide to give it a go, do it with her demoted to girlfriend. She doesn’t deserve to be your wife.


----------



## bandit.45

No she does not deserve to be his wife. 

In fact, think once the divorce goes through Hantei should set his sights on the woman of HIS dreams and not settle for his WW. She's tainted and used up. She may have been a bright red Porsche in her day, but by now she's probably nothing more than a dolled up Karmen Ghia. 

Hantei needs to find himself a hot little Ferrari.


----------



## Marduk

I've often thought that if for some reason I wanted to accept a reconciliation offer after a physical affair, I'd say that we can date. 

But she has to be exclusive, and I don't. For as long as it takes to see if I want to come back. 

Not to actually date other people, but to see if she actually wanted to reconcile, or if she just wanted to get the safety of marriage back. Because she's afraid, not because she wants to fight for the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

No matter which way he chooses he needs to put the time, effort and thought into it.

Don't wake up 2/3 years later regretting the outcome.

Divorce takes a year. Plenty of time to figure this out and what's best for him.


----------



## bandit.45

Marc878 said:


> No matter which way he chooses he needs to put the time, effort and thought into it.
> 
> Don't wake up 2/3 years later regretting the outcome.
> 
> Divorce takes a year. Plenty of time to figure this out and what's best for him.


He can be looking at the menu in the meantime.


----------



## Hantei

I'm having trouble even liking all the posts, yet alone responding. Apologies if I'm unable to respond directly - your feedback is duly noted. So:
@Graywolf2 (#961) - Yes she wasn't choked before until SOB showed up. She admitted that. It was her attempt to rationalise what she's done and to keep an impression of "normally growing apart".
@MovingFrwrd (#964) - answers are:
- Yes, if I tell I need the timeline aka the roadmap to destruction. She has been giving dates an all, just not in writing.
- Lie detector never crossed my mind as an option. Will consider it if I decide to R, otherwise it’s not worth the effort IMHO.
- Yes. As you may see she's never been secretive with it anyway.
- Stepping up - she is all for it. The trouble for me (and for her) is I cannot really imagine what it is going to look like. I have been happy in marriage before, what else can she do now? Even waxing my boat as someone suggested as a joke - we have done it before and had a ton of fun.
- Go to counselling - no problems. 
- Answer questions - she's all for it now. But that is while I’m not really asking. Will she endure years of grilling?
- Work to repair relationship - she’s begging for the chance to do it. The question remains - how exactly?
@********** - I agree it’s over (collaborated by some evidence). The following is NOT aimed at you but at STBXW "OK it's over. So what?". At the moment I AM a plan B - the burden of proof is on her to change that, if it is even possible. E.g. if I was in her shoes I'd genuinely have no f#$#ng clue on how to prove that (I'm not a plan B). It's like she's constantly saying she loves me and in love with me. OK were you loving me when you were in bed with SOB? No? Then I'm a plan B.
Correct, I asked her not to have any discussions of that sort while my son can overhear them. I am getting used to her not being at the house. That was very insightful from you. 
@bandit.45 (#968-9) - since Friday this is all "I love you's" and "in love with you's". Trust me I'm not asking, hinting or even expecting these. You are right with the rest of your post.
I asked her why numerous times. Before Friday it was all that "emotional" staff; from Friday onwards - well without using this word she's admitted it was all fog and most importantly poor and lame attempt to justify herself. I don’t think 2 years is accurate ????

MIL is gone. She basically went NC with her and wants to move out of there ASAP (preferably in our house,  )
No I'm not smart enough (in this business at least) to know remorse from just tears. She looks genuine to me now... as she was for 20+ years.
@alte Dame (#970). Oy vey? lol, I was always thinking its "Oi way". High school is that it is - and you probably don't know how right are you until I manage to post the timeline I was talking about. I'm not teasing, just having hard time catching up. Yes, you, @Satya, @Affaircare, @bandit.45, @Graywolf2 and others have been remarkably on the money. Yes, undeserved is how I feel. I swear if I have been neglecting her, say, emotionally I'd be feeling much better now.
@sparrow555 - that is embarrassing. I did read it and she's told me about it (that was one of the few questions I asked). How shall I put it... She felt terrible and disgusted and horrified but he was basically crying from emotional joy, and that impacted her in the way she was able to push these feelings aside. Sorry I don't know how to make it clearer. 

Wrt MIL - yes she set them up to meet, so what. I don't like her at all but do believe that was the case. I don't think STBXW is scoring any points by stating that fact. She did not force my STBXW to sleep with him, that's on her.
@JohnA (#974) - I'm not comfortable with "seeing" the same sex as well - for both of us  Being serious - I'm not going to ask. If she wants to date - Godspeed, this will clear the air, I won't have to change anything significant. She committed to "not dating and waiting for her chance" without me asking.
@Tron - yes I’m sticking to old visitation program for so many reasons (legal mostly). Not sure about VAR of further snooping. I will see how persistent she is in her attempts to R when I'm not promising anything. 
@eric1 (#978) - agree.
@Divinely Favored - FIL knows but he will rug sweep it.
@marduk (#985) - not arguing but when you say "cold" please consider my limited capacity to verbalize all underlying emotions. Don't seem cold to me. No history of manipulation, she's been mostly selfless.
@Be smart (#986) - thanks, can't rule out play.
@TDSC60 (#987) - yes many time since Friday. She made it clear she is not asking for a marriage per se, but for a (romantic) relationship with me. As a girlfriend if you like.


----------



## bandit.45

I don't believe that the disconnect started when she got involved with OM. I think the foundation as laid before that. What was the impetus of her meeting the OM for coffee that first time? What was going in with her at that juncture that allowed her to drop that first boundary by agreeing to see him? Were you and her going through a rough spot in your relationship? Was this a reaction to a midlife crisis?

Is she a good looking woman? Has she taken care of herself over the years? Does she still have a nice body? Or has she aged and let herself go? 

Reason I ask is....are you still physically attracted to her?


----------



## just got it 55

Plan B is no fvcking way to live

55


----------



## farsidejunky

bandit.45 said:


> I don't believe that the disconnect started when she got involved with OM. I think the foundation as laid before that. What was the impetus of her meeting the OM for coffee that first time? What was going in with her at that juncture that allowed her to drop that first boundary by agreeing to see him? Were you and her going through a rough spot in your relationship? Was this a reaction to a midlife crisis?


This. Something had to lead to her wanting to take that chance on the first meeting, @Hantei.

Has she alluded to it? 



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## bfree

A man that accepts being plan B probably does so because he doesn't believe he has many options. A man who doesn't believe he has many options is not attractive to a woman therefore his plan B relationship is usually short lived.


----------



## Marc878

If you want to know her true feelings for OM and how deep it was download the deleted texts from her phone. If it matters or helps with closure.

Do you know how long the affair was? Did you notice anything during that time or was she normal?

The reason I ask is how good of an actress is she?


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> Yes. She did.


Then why did the mom turn against her ?

And I mentioned it before.. Ask her if there was more to their relationship than she let you on before the marriage.


Also, you should look into how multiquotes work.


----------



## alte Dame

I suspect that the MIL has been whispering in her ear about her H for many years. I would bet that she was encouraged to 'consider other options' for years, even if just via subtle digs.


----------



## Marduk

Mother in laws don't set up their married daughters with other men unless they think their daughters can do better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bankshot1993

No rational mother sets up her married for twenty years daughter regardless of if she thinks she can do better. What mother in their right mind sabotages her daughters life?


----------



## Marduk

bankshot1993 said:


> No rational mother sets up her married for twenty years daughter regardless of if she thinks she can do better. What mother in their right mind sabotages her daughters life?


One that thinks her daughter is too good for her husband, and her family too good for the son in law.

I would not be surprised if this bias extended to the children.


----------



## farsidejunky

This is where I come back to my thought that reconciliation simply may not be possible. 

I can't envision a scenario in which she will permanently remove her mother from both her and their son's lives. I just don't see it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> This is where I come back to my thought that reconciliation simply may not be possible.
> 
> I can't envision a scenario in which she will permanently remove her mother from both her and their son's lives. I just don't see it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I agree. Too problematic. And even if it works, it will be a point of friction forever. 

And I'd go even one step further...

She'll do it again. That's speculation, and my gut talking. 

And if H were to go through his entire relationship with a fine toothed comb, starting with them dating... I'm sure he'd come up with other possible 'mistakes.'

She was blatant. Assured. In the fog, sure, but more... Confident. Somehow. 

Maybe I'm wrong.

But I don't think so.


----------



## farsidejunky

marduk said:


> I agree. Too problematic. And even if it works, it will be a point of friction forever.
> 
> And I'd go even one step further...
> 
> She'll do it again. That's speculation, and my gut talking.
> 
> And if H were to go through his entire relationship with a fine toothed comb, starting with them dating... I'm sure he'd come up with other possible 'mistakes.'
> 
> She was blatant. Assured. In the fog, sure, but more... Confident. Somehow.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> But I don't think so.


I can't say one way or the other about her repeating this last act.

But if the mother has so much influence in her life to convince her to flirt with the idea of replacing @Hantei (with his wife finishing the deal), how on earth can she remain no contact for the rest of her mothers life? 

No way.

One voice mail from the MIL guilting his wife into letting her see their son will be the beginning of the end of no contact.


----------



## bankshot1993

farsidejunky said:


> This is where I come back to my thought that reconciliation simply may not be possible.
> 
> I can't envision a scenario in which she will permanently remove her mother from both her and their son's lives. I just don't see it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think reconciliation isn't possible because WW didn't choose to leave the AP he chose to send her packing with his "more evolved" crap. This left H in the perpetual position of being her second choice. 

When the feces hit the fan and H discovered, she told H why she chose the other man, not that she made a mistake and what she was going to do to fix it. She left the marital home with the intention of moving forward with the OM with little regard for the twenty years she was walking away from.

Maybe it was boredom, maybe the other man was as enigmatic as she said he was or maybe he was a bloody hypnotist and got her into bed that way. None of that matters because when confronted about it she had the choice to fall down at his feet and beg for forgiveness but instead he got the whole story about why the OM was so much better for her than her husband of twenty years.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> I can't say one way or the other about her repeating this last act.
> 
> But if the mother has so much influence in her life to convince her to flirt with the idea of replacing @Hantei (with his wife finishing the deal), how on earth can she remain no contact for the rest of her mothers life?
> 
> No way.
> 
> One voice mail from the MIL guilting his wife into letting her see their son will be the beginning of the end of no contact.


I agree. I mean, what happens at Christmas time? Birthdays? Thanksgiving?

Is grandma just going to be absent? Disappear from the kids' lives? And her daughter's?

No way.

The whole family dropped the ball on H's marriage. The matriarchy in this one is rotten to the core.

At least in a divorce situation you can expect the ex in laws to be undermining you, and put in rules that need to be followed if they get access to your kid.

Right now he's got diddly squat except the word of a lying woman who's panicking about her lifestyle.


----------



## Marduk

bankshot1993 said:


> I think reconciliation isn't possible because WW didn't choose to leave the AP he chose to send her packing with his "more evolved" crap. This left H in the perpetual position of being her second choice.
> 
> When the feces hit the fan and H discovered, she told H why she chose the other man, not that she made a mistake and what she was going to do to fix it. She left the marital home with the intention of moving forward with the OM with little regard for the twenty years she was walking away from.
> 
> Maybe it was boredom, maybe the other man was as enigmatic as she said he was or maybe he was a bloody hypnotist and got her into bed that way. None of that matters because when confronted about it she had the choice to fall down at his feet and beg for forgiveness but instead he got the whole story about why the OM was so much better for her than her husband of twenty years.


Yup, plan A bailed when he got bored of ****ing H's wife, or she became high maintenance (because H was no longer supporting her). 

She is begging for plan B to start supporting her again (and trust me this whole 'dating' thing is really 'give me emotional support and room to maneuver myself back into the marital bed'.

Which will last probably as long as it takes to find a new plan A, maybe with mommy's help.

H can't win on this one in a R. I mean, his wife will respect him less. His MIL will respect him less. The basic dynamic doesn't change.


----------



## Marduk

Oh, an interesting test would be to contact the OM's wife to clue her in to her advanced husband's sexual proclivities. 

And don't tell H's wife.

If she finds out, you know they're still in contact.

If she flips out, you know she's still trying to protect the OM and would rather be with him than you.

If you hear nothing... Maybe that's a good sign.


----------



## bankshot1993

marduk said:


> Oh, an interesting test would be to contact the OM's wife to clue her in to her advanced husband's sexual proclivities.
> 
> And don't tell H's wife.
> 
> If she finds out, you know they're still in contact.
> 
> If she flips out, you know she's still trying to protect the OM and would rather be with him than you.
> 
> If you hear nothing... Maybe that's a good sign.


OM isn't married.


----------



## Marduk

bankshot1993 said:


> OM isn't married.


I guarantee mr advanced has a wife or live in GF back in the UK. Or something.

He vanished awfully quick once D-day hit.


----------



## JohnA

Unless Hantei adds more detail in regards to his MIL perhaps we should accept his view. His MIL is an elitist, who has always felt daughter could have done better, is clueless and unaware of the consequences of her words and actions. She is toxic and needs to go or minimized. I think right know he needs to get a list of the "friends" that supported her. Without committing to any course of action ask for all names and what they said or did to help or encouraging her. 

In hindsight my exWW froze out (and in one case picked a fight with) all her old friends who would ave helped her divorce (right or wrong) but would have told me about the adultery. Actually all her old friends where like this. It was the new friends (old story about the fox with no tail) that helped her lie to me, supported her, and encouraged her. Chief among them a woman with a history of toxic ex's, and two teen daughters each with a child whose father was MIA. 

If I was Hantei I want a list, any texts and and a full timeline of what was said ( both his wife and her friend) and done.). In my case one of my WW new friends I did know, had double dated and had over for dinner several times. She had no problem double dating with my WW and the WW POSM then turn around and ask if she and her kids could come over to use the pool. 

And this is the difference between my MIL and Hantei's. I invited my MIL over for the week-end. She stayed the week thank god. While she loved her daughter, she would never allow any of her children to get away with crap. So no toxic friends over no walking out the door to hook up MOM. Her mom was all business, get divorce and then start dating AND NO CRAP WHEN DIVORCING.


----------



## Hantei

JohnA said:


> Unless Hantei adds more detail in regards to his MIL perhaps we should accept his view. His MIL is an elitist, who has always felt daughter could have done better, is clueless and unaware of the consequences of her words and actions. She is toxic and needs to go or minimized. I think right know he needs to get a list of the "friends" that supported her. Without committing to any course of action ask for all names and what they said or did to help or encouraging her.
> 
> .


That's very close to my view of the situation. Ok I'm self imposing an embargo on my own posts - I want to compile that timeline at least for my own sake.


----------



## Be smart

Your mother in law did all of this because your wife used to complain about you,tell bad things,saying you are not good enough for her and stuff like that,so MIL decided she wants to "help" and only pushed her a little bit towards the ending. 

If you ever go for R your MIL have to from your life and that is going to be hard. Every time you two have a fight your wife will bring this and say "you made me throw my mother away". I cant see this working my friend.

The most important thing is that your wife never ended this Affair. She was dumped,rejected from OM,so she turned to you as her backup plan,hoping you will take her back and forget about this. She wants to move on like it never happend. She wants Romantic relationship with you,you said. 

See this my friend,all she is talking is What She Wants. 

She told you multiple times she no longer speaks with her mother but she is still living there,right. Then what about OM and no contact with him!!! She can play you easly on this one my friend. You see her for a little bit during the day,so there is lot of opportunity for her.

Stay strong my friend and take care of yourself and your son.


----------



## TDSC60

marduk said:


> Mother in laws don't set up their married daughters with other men unless they think their daughters can do better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or unless the daughter has said or done something that the MIL takes as a sign that daughter is open to having a relationship outside of marriage or is totally unsatisfied with her marriage.


----------



## TDSC60

Bottom line in all of this is that his wife, with eyes wide open threw away her husband and her marriage and told H why she was doing so. Told him that he did not mean sh*t to her when compared to OM. Slept with OM. Was intent on a future with OM. Hantei was not even a Plan B at this point. He was in her past and the future was bright with artistic, charismatic, sensitive OM as her partner/husband.

She showed no signs of remorse or guilt until OM basically told her he did not intend for her to leave her marriage. He just wanted sex with her as an enlightened, progressive partner. This is when Hantei became an option.

I could not R with her no matter what she says now. I am not even sure I could date her after the divorce. What she did turns my stomach just reading it here.

A very disturbing thought just crossed my mind. Hantei, is your wife capable of getting pregnant now. This might explain her desire for R so quickly and her willingness to have a "romantic" relationship with you even with the impending divorce.

If pregnancy is even remotely possible, you owe to yourself to make her pee on a stick before you agree to any romantic get togethers.


----------



## Hantei

Ok here is my attempt to compile everything I know together. This is based on what I know from my intercepts plus discussions with STBXW so far (she is in constant attempts to talk to me). There may be slight inconsistencies with what I was posting previously as now I have more information (at least quantity if not quality). I'm also stating these "events" as I know with no or little attempt interpret. I have also decided not to include exact dates (just in case).

- 20+ years ago, our high school teen days, before we met. Her mother introduces SOB to her. He's a son of one of her BFF's and it is likely that they just sat down as thought "our children would make such a great pair" or something. He is invited to some of their family events and they (my future wife and SOB) met.
- There was a bit of flirt and such but they never get to date or anything serious. He seems not extremely interested and she is more curious than anything.
- At that time we meet and start dating. Over time we get serious, move in etc. MIL does not really think I'm the right one and reminds STBXW about him. Again he gets invited to some family events (I was also there at times and can vaguely remember him looking out of place). 
- We get engaged. There are couple of heated discussion between my STBXW and MIL (more like your are too young, you sure he is the right one, etc, not like "SOB is the better one"). At the same time for some reason SOB gets interested in my wife now but she does not pay any attention. (Note this is plausible to me, I do recall this to a degree). 
- We get married, SOB is of the horizon. Over time MIL gets OK with me being her son in law (especially when our son is born). We are not cordial but friendly and polite. Note I cannot collaborate nor do I have a gut feeling MIL was actively in my wife's ears all these years. And when we had rare incident my STBXW was always actively on my side, I give her that.
Present: 
- Late last year STBXW is getting some feelings our life is too active (hobby, travels, son, friends, etc.) and does not leave a lot of time for "emotional" connection. Note is that neither I nor she (now) claims this had any rational reason to it. She told me she does not believe it was the case, we had plenty of "us" time, she never felt unattractive to me or a need for attention from other males. It was just a "low" period in her life which would normally go away. She never talked to me about that although we had a habit of discussing anything and everything.
- Approximately at the same time SOB surfaces (through MIL's BFF) here. Being the person who always has to be right (e.g. everyone who dared to disagree must at the end of days admit she was right) and who must always have the last say she passes the invite to my STBXW (apparently SOB wanted to see her). Note I'm at crossroads her - I know MIL didn't want my STBXW to cheat (damn distraction to the lifestyle) at the same time I don't get what she was expecting out of this hookup.
- Anyway STBXW feels like SOB is "unfinished business" and agrees to meet him. He makes the move and she - being in that state of mind - goes for it. Once again, that is how it was presented to me, I reserve my judgement.
- Within a relatively short period (less than 10 weeks) they get physical. STBXW feels awful about that but he's so happy and emotional (crying!) she manages to push the quilt and all of that aside. They do it 2 times. After the 2nd she feels even worse and "stops being fun" for him. He tries to get "her back" - AKA encourage her to continue - and leaves that voicemail I intercepted. 
- She does not see any "future" with him but can't face the facts she's done all of this for nothing so she gives me (and her MIL) the speech about emotional connection and all. MIL gets her "I was right" moment but also scared s#$#less about the consequences of her hooking them up. 
- She moves out, he learns that and reduces the contact. Tells her since she is in a such bad state of mind he does not feel that emotional connection anymore (stopped being fun).
- I leave him (the 1st) voicemail, he tells her he is worried I will get violent with him (he also warned her I'll get violent with her. That was one of the hot topics with my MIL BTW. I was doing fighting sports and martial arts since I was 8, SOB plays tennis and golf) and disappears.
- She keeps the "I'm just moving on" face but reaches out to him to find out his position and he gives her that "advanced" staff. That he thought we are all in advanced era and little fling on the side does not end her marriage, but I'm a caveman and this is all her fault.
- She sends him these 2 final comms I've posted about - one is hateful and one is basically NC.
- She wants me back, knows it’s her fault, knows I won't forgive her having sex with the other man, will however ate least try anything to make it up in any form - co-parent, girlfriend, FWB, whatever.


----------



## Hantei

That is a f $#^&ing disturbing thought. She didn't have any irreversible BC and can technically get pregnant. Damn.





TDSC60 said:


> Bottom line in all of this is that his wife, with eyes wide open threw away her husband and her marriage and told H why she was doing so. Told him that he did not mean sh*t to her when compared to OM. Slept with OM. Was intent on a future with OM. Hantei was not even a Plan B at this point. He was in her past and the future was bright with artistic, charismatic, sensitive OM as her partner/husband.
> 
> She showed no signs of remorse or guilt until OM basically told her he did not intend for her to leave her marriage. He just wanted sex with her as an enlightened, progressive partner. This is when Hantei became an option.
> 
> I could not R with her no matter what she says now. I am not even sure I could date her after the divorce. What she did turns my stomach just reading it here.
> 
> A very disturbing thought just crossed my mind. Hantei, is your wife capable of getting pregnant now. This might explain her desire for R so quickly and her willingness to have a "romantic" relationship with you even with the impending divorce.
> 
> If pregnancy is even remotely possible, you owe to yourself to make her pee on a stick before you agree to any romantic get togethers.


----------



## Tron

Well Hantei. Just another run of the mill affair then and when everything blew up she started reaching for a lifeline anywhere she could find it. 

It sounds plausible, but who the hell knows.

Is she willing to back that story up on a poly?


----------



## Marc878

So how long did the affair last?


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> So how long did the affair last?


Active phase - little over a month.


----------



## Marc878

It's this simple.

Can you live with this?

No matter how you slice it or dice it it comes down to this basic question.


----------



## Affaircare

Am I really the only one who thinks that she suspects she's pregnant by the OM and that's why she's so desperate to R? 

I mean seriously--like LAST WEEK she could not have given a flying **** about patching things up. I get that the OM essentially threw her under the bus, but going from "I need someone enigmatic and that's not you!" to "I am so in love with you!" is just too huge of a mood swing!

....unless she pregnant. In which case, it is plausible. 

Frankly, I'd rule that out first thing, because that would be a deciding factor, if you ask me.


----------



## Marc878

Affaircare said:


> Am I really the only one who thinks that she suspects she's pregnant by the OM and that's why she's so desperate to R?
> 
> I mean seriously--like LAST WEEK she could not have given a flying **** about patching things up. I get that the OM essentially threw her under the bus, but going from "I need someone enigmatic and that's not you!" to "I am so in love with you!" is just too huge of a mood swing!
> 
> ....unless she pregnant. In which case, it is plausible.
> 
> Frankly, I'd rule that out first thing, because that would be a deciding factor, if you ask me.


Wow, damn!!! It's possible.

One way to find out. Ask her. The facial expression will tell you.


----------



## eric1

Do you think she gave up so quickly on the marriage because she was caught and it was her ham handed way to save face?

Or more specifically, has she alluded to that?


----------



## TX-SC

What a really messed up situation you have here. I think you should sit down with her, talk, and hear her out. Most importantly, you need to figure out why she now wants you back after being adamant that your marriage is not what she wanted. 

I'll be honest, what your wife has done is not as bad as some I've seen or read about. She cheated and had sex with him twice. She was in the "fog" and feeling the rush and excitement as they always seem to do. It ended and now she feels bad and wants to reconcile. I don't remember her having bad mouthed you but I may be wrong. 

The biggest issues here are the following:

1) She told you that she doesn't want you anymore and that you were not sophisticated enough for her, and

2) If he wasn't a jerk, she would likely still be with him and you would be nothing to her. 

So, how does she justify those actions?


----------



## TDSC60

Affaircare said:


> Am I really the only one who thinks that she suspects she's pregnant by the OM and that's why she's so desperate to R?
> 
> I mean seriously--like LAST WEEK she could not have given a flying **** about patching things up. I get that the OM essentially threw her under the bus, but going from "I need someone enigmatic and that's not you!" to "I am so in love with you!" is just too huge of a mood swing!
> 
> ....unless she pregnant. In which case, it is plausible.
> 
> Frankly, I'd rule that out first thing, because that would be a deciding factor, if you ask me.


I agree and had the same thought about pregnancy. I posted this on the last page and told him he should have her take a pregnancy test before any sexual contact with her or attempting R.

How far gone does a woman have to be before it shows on a do-it-yourself, over the counter test?


----------



## ShatteredKat

Hentai (new but Old Guy here)

You have just survived a massive shelling - all around you is destruction - now the rounds are no longer incoming. 

Take a long breath - be thankful you are still in one piece.

Your wife is just starting to get out of shell-shock (maybe) - give your self several months and try to steer a neutral course - but keep out a sharp eye for snipers.

Mrs Hentai has blown up her life, yours, your son, and wasted a lot of friendships.

This ain't gonna get fixed in a few days - or even months. Please try to endure and take 
to get settled in your thinking. More info is sure to come and as you process what you have and what you learn and also absorb the massive amount of knowledge/experience being thrown your wah here, you will begin to change your view.

My wife provided me with a treat 35 years ago. The pain will never go away as you will never be able to forget till Alzheimer takes you. 

You have to answer to yourself. Can you live with what you now have. Do you think in time you will mellow and accept that your wife was not the perfect person you thought? 

Forgiving does not mean forgetting - it means putting your hurt and hate aside and making the decision you will not dwell on that which you cannot change. But you will never agiain have the blind trust you had before.

Ok - so what? Now if you decide to try to stay connected - SHE HAS TO DO A LOT OF WORK.
for a long time - - -

actions - if she starts to "get it" I would vote to try. If she doesn't - you have the wheels in motion so just proceed.

I hope I don't confuse you or come across as trying to push in any direction.
It hurts worse than anything you have experienced I am sure. 

I think you should consider also whether or not should you kick her to the boonies if years later you regret not having tried to recover.

Any path you choose is yours to make and live with the choice. NONE of them are easy or painless.

My personal choice would be to try and swallow hard on the risk I would be taking to have my heart handed to me again in pieces. I would not then look back years later and have any regret.

Godspeed Mate


----------



## 86857

marduk said:


> She'll do it again. That's speculation, and my gut talking.
> 
> And if H were to go through his entire relationship with a fine toothed comb, starting with them dating... I'm sure he'd come up with other possible 'mistakes.'
> 
> She was blatant. Assured. In the fog, sure, but more... Confident. Somehow.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> But I don't think so.


 @marduk. I've always thought there was something very unsettling about what WS said on D-Day. The whole enigmatic speech was bad enough, but to end it with, 'everyone will just have to adjust' was so matter-of-fact. She was talking about her husband of 20 years . . & son! Adjust? Just like that?

C'mon, all that after only one month with OM?

Hantei, it's as if for the 2 years she was unhappy, while keeping you completely in the dark & acting as loving as always which is lying by non-disclosure, she was 'looking for something', maybe not actively. Then OM showed up & she grabbed the opportunity and only took a month to decide to jump ship. So much so that she didn't even check with OM first. She was done with the marriage. Of course it exploded in her face when OM slithered away like a snake. 

I doubt there's a pregnancy. Women in their 40s tend to make sure they don't get pregnant. But you need to ask now that it's been brought up. It never even crossed my mind. 

Hope you don't mind me being harsh here. I feel you just have to be careful, real careful about your decision to R or not.


----------



## 86857

@Hantei, I just read the timeline. 
I don't get the "unfinished business" which she said was the reason for meeting OM. 
What unfinished business? 
As far as you know, she had zero interest in him all those years ago when he became interested in her after you guys got engaged. Huh!
Though he hadn't shown interest in her in the years earlier when MIL was trying to matchmake them. Huh! again. 
Something doesn't add up. 
Might she have had a fling with him when you guys were engaged, or met him in the intervening years? 
I dunno. . .

I'd be wanting to know what she means by unfinished business.


----------



## Hantei

Affaircare said:


> Am I really the only one who thinks that she suspects she's pregnant by the OM and that's why she's so desperate to R?
> 
> I mean seriously--like LAST WEEK she could not have given a flying **** about patching things up. I get that the OM essentially threw her under the bus, but going from "I need someone enigmatic and that's not you!" to "I am so in love with you!" is just too huge of a mood swing!
> 
> ....unless she pregnant. In which case, it is plausible.
> 
> Frankly, I'd rule that out first thing, because that would be a deciding factor, if you ask me.


Correct, it never crossed my mind until today. And if she's pregnant (with SOB 's child) the game is over. I don't have it in me to take her back with OM's child, I'm not a soap opera character. 

May I please clarify the ONE WEEK thing although I don't disagree with the sentiment. 

According to what I know she realised all of that very soon she left. She then assumed (knowing me) it's over and was just trying to keep face with moving on and all. Untill last Friday when she realised she can't keep it anymore and needs at least to try. Al least that's the story.


----------



## Hantei

Good questions tried to answer on my previous post.




TX-SC said:


> What a really messed up situation you have here. I think you should sit down with her, talk, and hear her out. Most importantly, you need to figure out why she now wants you back after being adamant that your marriage is not what she wanted.
> 
> I'll be honest, what your wife has done is not as bad as some I've seen or read about. She cheated and had sex with him twice. She was in the "fog" and feeling the rush and excitement as they always seem to do. It ended and now she feels bad and wants to reconcile. I don't remember her having bad mouthed you but I may be wrong.
> 
> The biggest issues here are the following:
> 
> 1) She told you that she doesn't want you anymore and that you were not sophisticated enough for her, and
> 
> 2) If he wasn't a jerk, she would likely still be with him and you would be nothing to her.
> 
> So, how does she justify those actions?


----------



## Hantei

eric1 said:


> Do you think she gave up so quickly on the marriage because she was caught and it was her ham handed way to save face?
> 
> Or more specifically, has she alluded to that?


Correct.


----------



## Hantei

Where is the harsh part? 

I have tried to adress the one month based on what I've been told. 

You maybe right and she may be unhappy for all this time and have a fling with SOB. 

I'm not sure if I should even bother with questions and poly and all even if she's not pregnant. 

Which she's probably not, she'sbeen in er with stress ssome time ago, they do check pregnancy there so I'd been informed... or not?





********** said:


> @marduk. I've always thought there was something very unsettling about what WS said on D-Day. The whole enigmatic speech was bad enough, but to end it with, 'everyone will just have to adjust' was so matter-of-fact. She was talking about her husband of 20 years . . & son! Adjust? Just like that?
> 
> C'mon, all that after only one month with OM?
> 
> Hantei, it's as if for the 2 years she was unhappy, while keeping you completely in the dark & acting as loving as always which is lying by non-disclosure, she was 'looking for something', maybe not actively. Then OM showed up & she grabbed the opportunity and only took a month to decide to jump ship. So much so that she didn't even check with OM first. She was done with the marriage. Of course it exploded in her face when OM slithered away like a snake.
> 
> I doubt there's a pregnancy. Women in their 40s tend to make sure they don't get pregnant. But you need to ask now that it's been brought up. It never even crossed my mind.
> 
> Hope you don't mind me being harsh here. I feel you just have to be careful, real careful about your decision to R or not.


----------



## tom67

For the record, my sister who had heartbreaking miscarriages in her late 20s early 30s has two miracle babies one at 42 and 44.
Just saying. :smile2:


----------



## Graywolf2

Hantei said:


> According to what I know *she realised all of that very soon she left*. She then assumed (knowing me) it's over and was just trying to keep face with moving on and all.
> 
> She keeps the "I'm just moving on" face but reaches out to him to find out his position and he gives her that "advanced" staff.


It would be more accurate to say that she realized it soon after she confirmed with the POS OM that he officially dumped her and that there was no future with him. 



Hantei said:


> She sends him these 2 final comms I've posted about - one is hateful and one is basically NC.


To me the “hateful” comm indicates that she wasn’t happy with his answer that there was no future with him.


----------



## Mike11

I think the real test here is when SOB will call her back, These Weasels always do, He will call her back trying to get her to continue the "enlighten" FWB relationship with him without commitment, he is just in hiding now in observation to see where things will go avoiding the fallout from nuking Hantei's marriage, once the air will clear he will come out of hiding making contact with her, most likely will to weasel his way with her with emotional manipulations and false apologies, the issue here is with her no longer in a marriage unit and with a bleak future, there is a good change she will cave in if he manipulates her to think he may consider a relationship with her and string her all along, I think it will be very hard on Hantei's STBXW to resist this and will be a true test if she is in to do the hard work and take the risk Hantei will not take her back eventually.

This is why you must keep monitoring Hantei, much information on her state of mind and true intention can be gathered by good collected "intell" if you see a sudden change in her behavior, as back to the smug "I am moving on" attitude for example ,it can be a good indication if he is back, and how serious was she when she was telling to she is willing to do anything to get you back (including to take a risk she will end up alone).


----------



## Be smart

My friend her Affair is/was longer then one month. Maybe PA lasted for one month but EA was longer. You dont sleep with someone just like that and in your wife case she knew this man from early age. She was even in some relationship with him long time ago so she felt there is some spark there,some unaswered questions like she said. Excuse after excuse see.

First she spend some time texting,talking with him and have launch dates with him (EA) and her mother suported her,THEN she slept with him because he was her soul mate and she find this very interesting,not boring like she called you.

Remember my friend she never ended this Affair. And if she didnt get dumped by the OM she would be at his place. OM didnt want her because he got enough of her or was affraid of your calls. He even tells her that sleeping with other people is not The End for a good Marriage. She learns another good advice,sorry.

Why are you so sure and why do you trust your wife when she tells you there is no more contact with him ? She could show you a message about this just to play with you my friend. She still lives with her mother,a good friend of yours and your son 

Stay strong.


----------



## JohnA

@Be smart remember Hantei is being cool and non-committal with his WW. She is the one who is desperately throwing out info hoping to get Hantei to engage. Even if it a retort said in angry. 

I spent years in outside sale with a company that providing a service that required at times me being with a customer daily. Like any long term relationship there where bumps. I knew the relationship was dead if they did not complain. If they where yelling it told me I could resolve the problem and keep the business relationship solid. 

The longer he stays cool the more info he gets and the more she accepts terms at a later date she would have shot down on D-day.


----------



## JohnA

@Be smart remember Hantei is being cool and non-committal with his WW. She is the one who is desperately throwing out info hoping to get Hantei to engage. Even if it a retort said in angry. 

I spent years in outside sale with a company that providing a service that required at times me being with a customer daily. Like any long term relationship there where bumps. I knew the relationship was dead if they did not complain. If they where yelling it told me I could resolve the problem and keep the business relationship solid. 

The longer he stays cool the more info he gets and the more she accepts terms at a later date she would have shot down on D-day.


----------



## becareful

Hantei,

Is your wife's family Asian by any chance? Reading your thread reminds me of the busybody Asian moms who often try to reroute their daughter's romantic relationships towards someone with more money, social standing, etc. I've known a couple of them growing up.


----------



## Hantei

Hey I figured out how multi quote works (thanks to someone who pm'ed me).




Graywolf2 said:


> It would be more accurate to say that she realized it soon after she confirmed with the POS OM that he officially dumped her and that there was no future with him.
> To me the “hateful” comm indicates that she wasn’t happy with his answer that there was no future with him.


Yes this is accurate. What she's telling me maybe true but I would always insist these were contributing factors to her "loving me back" so quickly .




Mike11 said:


> I think the real test here is when SOB will call her back, ...
> 
> This is why you must keep monitoring Hantei, much information on her state of mind and true intention can be gathered by good collected "intell" if you see a sudden change in her behavior, as back to the smug "I am moving on" attitude for example ,it can be a good indication if he is back, and how serious was she when she was telling to she is willing to do anything to get you back (including to take a risk she will end up alone).


Yes i will -until I realise I'm done for good (currently 90%there, D is 100% non negotiable). I'd only wish her to end up with better man than SOB. Counterintuitive I do believe she's great woman and wish her to be happy and make her man happy. It's just likely not to be me.




Be smart said:


> My friend her Affair is/was longer then one month. Maybe PA lasted for one month but EA was longer. You dont sleep with someone just like that and in your wife case she knew this man from early age. She was even in some relationship with him long time ago so she felt there is some spark there,some unaswered questions like she said. Excuse after excuse see.
> 
> First she spend some time texting,talking with him and have launch dates with him (EA) and her mother suported her,THEN she slept with him because he was her soul mate and she find this very interesting,not boring like she called you.
> 
> Remember my friend she never ended this Affair. And if she didnt get dumped by the OM she would be at his place. OM didnt want her because he got enough of her or was affraid of your calls. He even tells her that sleeping with other people is not The End for a good Marriage. She learns another good advice,sorry.
> 
> Why are you so sure and why do you trust your wife when she tells you there is no more contact with him ? She could show you a message about this just to play with you my friend. She still lives with her mother,a good friend of yours and your son
> 
> Stay strong.


All true. I referred to "active" phase. And you gave a better description of "unfinished business " than I did. 2 things I'm certain: they never got "serious" before we got (I know that) and they are not in contact right now (which as per previous quote could be temporary). Thanks.


----------



## Hantei

becareful said:


> Hantei,
> 
> Is your wife's family Asian by any chance? Reading your thread reminds me of the busybody Asian moms who often try to reroute their daughter's romantic relationships towards someone with more money, social standing, etc. I've known a couple of them growing up.


No, but I get what your are saying and they are not dissimilar. At the beginning MIL was exactly like that and she initially disliked me not for being me but because I wasn't an approved choice. When STBXW moved in with me she treated her more like a rebellious teen.

And all these years later she just had to prove her point.


----------



## Hantei

As a small update - I asked (prompted by some posts earlier on) more being sarcastic then serious "what if I ask you to hand over all your media, diaries, ask your closest friends, hire a PI, arrange the polygraph - will your story be collaborated?".

The answer was a very enthusiastic "yes", she only asked me if I can help her to get a box with her 20yo paper diaries out of the storage.


----------



## eric1

Mentally you're one of the strongest betrayeds that I have ever seen.

I'm sure that you don't feel that way, but there it is


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JohnA

Lately we have had several posters who seemed to get it from jump one. A lot of posters are amazing with their advise but they went through a long period of limbo and in many cases a false reconciliation. They acceptted reality, learned the hard way and rebuilt their lives. 
@Hantei is one, @weltschmerz @MovingFrwd @Lonely husband 42301 @Values some have decided to attempt to reconcile, some may but most likely will not but all them bit the bullet and took swift action. 

Huge shout out to lonely Husband and MovingFrwd. They have held there spouses accountable for the adultery, owned their issues, and are building healthy boundaries. I bet their new marriage will be must better than their last. Better than what was is the only reason to truly reconcile.


----------



## JohnA

Sorry misspelled @MovingFrwrd


----------



## 86857

Hantei said:


> As a small update - I asked (prompted by some posts earlier on) more being sarcastic then serious "what if I ask you to hand over all your media, diaries, ask your closest friends, hire a PI, arrange the polygraph - will your story be collaborated?".
> 
> The answer was a very enthusiastic "yes", she only asked me if I can help her to get a box with her 20yo paper diaries out of the storage.


That is a good sign Hantei, not that I'm at all saying it will change your mind. 
I just looked back through your posts to see how old she is, 40. 
I don't know if it holds for men, but having discussed it with other women, turning 40 tends to be a bit of a watershed for us. We look back & appraise our lives, what we did/didn't do, should/shouldn't have done, regrets & so on. We're no longer 'young' as such, though 40 isn't 'old'. But it does feel like that when one hits the big 40 or is approaching. The kids are much older so that part is gone too & it's sad for us Moms to think our 'little babies' are gone. I made some very big changes when I turned 40. 
Anyway, I suppose what I'm talking about is a mid-life crisis thing. 
I'm not for a MOMENT saying it's an excuse for an affair. Just saying it might have been a 'season of discontent' thing with her. 'The grass is greener' tends to stem from discontent. If that is so, her affair would be far more about what was in her head than anything to do with you. 

I'm still curious about her unhappiness for the past 2 years, what it was about & why she didn't tell you. And that's what I'm getting at with my 'season of discontent' thing. 
Is she someone who keeps things to herself? A very private person?
Whether you end up together or not, I still think she should explain her 2 years of 'discontent' with the affair being the culmination. 

I'm not explaining it very well. Hope you see what I'm trying to get at. I'm very analytical though & tend to want to deconstruct things and find an explanation & answers. Doing that helped me move on from the whole sorry business of my betrayal.


----------



## Hantei

Thank you very much **********. 

I think you are as close to what was in my STBXW head as possible- like you were having some tet-a-tete discussions with her. Like a framework to the emotional brain dumps I'm getting. If I'd show jet that post (obviously not going to) I'm certain she'd say "that is accurate".

As for the 2nd part I'm not sure about the 2 years reference but she's constantly urging me now that any previous unhappiness she implied was just her rationalization. She started feeling uneasy around the festive season and her thoughts about the past was a part of that midlife crisis you mentioned. 

She's never been private or passive aggressive with me, that's why this all hit me like a proverbial thunder. 

She's telling me constantly now one of her faults was to nurture this shallow and short term unhappiness (or discontent using your words) to grow out of proportion and not asking me to help as she used to all these years. 





********** said:


> That is a good sign Hantei, not that I'm at all saying it will change your mind.
> I just looked back through your posts to see how old she is, 40.
> I don't know if it holds for men, but having discussed it with other women, turning 40 tends to be a bit of a watershed for us. We look back & apraise our lives, what we did/didn't do, should/shouldn't have done, regrets & so on. We're no longer 'young' as such, though 40 isn't 'old'. But it does feel like that when one hits the big 40 or is approaching. The kids are much older so that part is gone too & it's sad for us Moms to think our 'little babies' are gone. I made some very big changes when I turned 40.
> Anyway, I suppose what I'm talking about is a mid-life crisis thing.
> I'm not for a MOMENT saying it's an excuse for an affair. Just saying it might have been a 'season of discontent' thing with her. 'The grass is greener' tends to stem from discontent. If that is so, her affair would be far more about what was in her head than anything to do with you.
> 
> I'm still curious about her unhappiness for the past 2 years, what it was about & why she didn't tell you. And that's what I'm getting at with my 'season of discontent' thing.
> Is she someone who keeps things to herself? A very private person?
> Whether you end up together or not, I still think she should explain her 2 years of 'discontent' with the affair being the culmination.
> 
> I'm not explaining it very well. Hope you see what I'm trying to get at. I'm very analytical though & tend to want to deconstruct things and find an explanation & answers. Doing that helped me move on from the whole sorry business of my betrayal.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Hantei, 

Just re-read your post 1050. I have suggested your WW provide a full list of her toxic threads. I suggested early on your WW would begin to freak when your son got home. 

I also suspect many of your mutual friends might be freezing her out of there lives by the wives Why? For the same reason widows are. The other females are mate guarding. There is no way other woman want ther husband's around her for any length of tine. 

As to the possibility of reconciliation, if you decide she stays out of the family home until much later after a lot of work with a MC. You are right to be wary. She is out of her home, her son s hurt and angry at her, her parents are disappointed in her, and many of her female friends will hours on the phone with her - none will socialize with her if it involves their husband. And there is you. She need you to lose it, yell and scream, maybe even push her hard to justified her adultery. You didn't and remaind calm and focusd on getting the details of the divorce done. 

So yea she wants it all back. Still at some point it wouldn't hurt to ask her to go with you to MC if only to discuss how to stabilized your son's life and keep on track. 


Be well


----------



## Hantei

Sorry mate,

Toxic threads? Also what about #1050 I need to re-read? 




JohnA said:


> Hi Hantei,
> 
> Just re-read your post 1050. I have suggested your WW provide a full list of her toxic threads. I suggested early on your WW would begin to freak when your son got home.
> 
> I also suspect many of your mutual friends might be freezing her out of there lives by the wives Why? For the same reason widows are. The other females are mate guarding. There is no way other woman want ther husband's around her for any length of tine.
> 
> As to the possibility of reconciliation, if you decide she stays out of the family home until much later after a lot of work with a MC. You are right to be wary. She is out of her home, her son s hurt and angry at her, her parents are disappointed in her, and many of her female friends will hours on the phone with her - none will socialize with her if it involves their husband. And there is you. She need you to lose it, yell and scream, maybe even push her hard to justified her adultery. You didn't and remaind calm and focusd on getting the details of the divorce done.
> 
> So yea she wants it all back. Still at some point it wouldn't hurt to ask her to go with you to MC if only to discuss how to stabilized your son's life and keep on track.
> 
> 
> Be well


----------



## farsidejunky

Toxic friends I think.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

farsidejunky said:


> Toxic friends I think.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I see. I can't say any of her friends are toxic (MIL and her entourage excepted). However- I hope I'm not breaking any rules or being inappropriate- I wish she'd have friends like @**********, @alte Dame or other ladies who posted in my thread (for obvious reasons I'm m mentioning ladies only). 

As far as I know and feel (have no bandwidth for digging) friends are very supportive of her and our R, don't approve the affair but behaving not dissimilar to what @JohnA has posted.

More importantly they don't the depths of TAM posters I'm benefiting from.


----------



## farsidejunky

Most people in real life don't have the EQ of TAM'ers. 

How are you holding up emotionally with having so much interaction with her, @Hantei? How about your son?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

I won't pretend it is easy. Kind of traded the hardship of having no interaction abdominal information for too much of it. 

Son is ok, but it takes extra effort to shield him. I feel drained at times. 




farsidejunky said:


> Most people in real life don't have the EQ of TAM'ers.
> 
> How are you holding up emotionally with having so much interaction with her, @Hantei? How about your son?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## bandit.45

********** said:


> Anyway, I suppose what I'm talking about is a mid-life crisis thing.
> I'm not for a MOMENT saying it's an excuse for an affair. Just saying it might have been a 'season of discontent' thing with her. 'The grass is greener' tends to stem from discontent. If that is so, her affair would be far more about what was in her head than anything to do with you.
> .


Which is all the more reason Hantei should not hedge his bets on this woman. It is going to take a MONUMENTAL effort on her part to figure out how she allowed herself to sink to this level and give in to whatever despair drove her to act this way. 

This unpredictability with women is one reason why so many young men today are foregoing marriage. Picking a good woman who will be stable and have enough moral strength to get through these periods without self-destructing is a crapshoot nowadays. 

Has Hantei's wife started any kind of counseling, therapy......? No. All she has done is follow Hantei around "I'm sorry...I'm sorry....I'm sorry...." Hoping that if she says it enough he will cave and rug-sweep. 

Does she know she is messed up? 

Has she acknowledged that she needs serious help? 

It's not enough for her to agree to do whatever H tells her to do. She needs to start showing him some proaction.


----------



## sparrow555

After reading the details, it feels her actions were even more stupid. What a absolutely unnecessary waste!!


----------



## Hantei

I agree with you bandit, especially on being proactive however I'm not so sure about the counselling and therapy. Wouldn't it be just delegating to someone else what one needs to do him or her self?

She knows she messed up and needs help. I think (feel) she maybe thinking this help will come from me?



bandit.45 said:


> Which is all the more reason Hantei should not hedge his bets on this woman. It is going to take a MONUMENTAL effort on her part to figure out how she allowed herself to sink to this level and give in to whatever despair drove her to act this way.
> 
> This unpredictability with women is one reason why so many young men today are foregoing marriage. Picking a good woman who will be stable and have enough moral strength to get through these periods without self-destructing is a crapshoot nowadays.
> 
> Has Hantei's wife started any kind of counseling, therapy......? No. All she has done is follow Hantei around "I'm sorry...I'm sorry....I'm sorry...." Hoping that if she says it enough he will cave and rug-sweep.
> 
> Does she know she is messed up?
> 
> Has she acknowledged that she needs serious help?
> 
> It's not enough for her to agree to do whatever H tells her to do. She needs to start showing him some proaction.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> I agree with you bandit, especially on being proactive however I'm not so sure about the counselling and therapy. Wouldn't it be just delegating to someone else what one needs to do him or her self?
> 
> She knows she messed up and needs help. I think (feel) she maybe thinking this help will come from me?


Sometimes a person doesn't know what to do for themselves. That's what a good counselor is for. To get a person thinking in an organized and productive manner. 

Right now your wife's brain is a motor without a transmission.....just rapped out at 15,000 rpm and burning out. 

If I were you I would say "Woman...stop expecting me and everyone else to fix your fvckups. Go see a good counselor...someone who will be tough and hold you accountable...someone who can help you understand why you made the stupid decisions you did and why you chose to give yourself permission to destroy your family and your life. That will go a lot farther towards impressing me and showing me that you want to fix what you destroyed, than just moping around hoping I will feel sorry for you and take you back."

Of course, finding a decent pro-marriage counselor is a crapshoot too. All it would take is for your wife to hook up with some pro-female, women's empowerment, new age goombah who will teach her to justify what she did and every other selfish act she's ever committed.


----------



## Hantei

I see. I hope -naively most likely- she figures out the "Woman..." bit herself. 

And yes for s ok me reason I think the counselor would focus on making her feeling ok and blaming me.

Anyway I'm determined not to offer or demand or suggest anything. If she decides to get counselling on her own, that may mean something to me.





bandit.45 said:


> Sometimes a person doesn't know what to do for themselves. That's what a good counselor is for. To get a person thinking in an organized and productive manner.
> 
> Right now your wife's brain is a motor without a transmision.....just rapped out at 15,000 rpm and burning out.
> 
> If I were you I would say "Woman...stop expecting me and everyone else to fix your fvckups. Go see a good counselor...someone who will be tough and hold you accountable...someone who can help you understand why you made the stupid decisions you did and why you chose to give yourself permission to destroy your family and your life. That will go a lot farther towards impressing me and showing me that you want to fix what you destroyed, than just moping around hoping I will feel sorry for you and take you back."
> 
> Of course, finding a decent pro-marriage counselor is a crapshoot too. All it would take is for your wife to hook up with some pro-female, women's empowerment, new age goombah who will teach her to justify what she did and every other selfish act she's ever committed.


----------



## Hantei

eric1 said:


> Mentally you're one of the strongest betrayeds that I have ever seen.
> 
> I'm sure that you don't feel that way, but there it is
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What doesn't kill you makes you stronger?


----------



## bankshot1993

H, i know that you read through @LonelyHusband 's thread. He posted something today in post #1474 of his thread. The reason it resonated so much with me is because it is essentually something that i have been ruminating on in your situation for a couple of days.

I have a great deal of respect for the people on TAM that have been helping you on here and one of the greatest strengths they have is that their decisions and advice aren't clouded by their emotional connection to the situation, this allows them to keep a clear head.

The thing is though, it is also one of their greatest handicaps as well. None of us know your wife like you. None of us are seeing her face or hearing her words, we can't get a snse of sincerety or insincerety like you can. None of us can get a true sense of where her head is at like you.

The only thing I'm saying here is that while you are getting great advice here, the most important of which is that time is on your side, it is also important to remember none of us have all the pieces of the puzzle except for you. You've shown great instincts so far, don't forget to keep using them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

So, reading your timeline, it doesn't look like it was going anywhere anyway. She was never comfortable with it and did feel very guilty. She had already stopped seeing him but he was trying to reel her back in.

When caught she panicked, tried to play it cool and made up reasons why she strayed assumed you were finished with her, and tried to save face.

Her emotional state deteriorated quickly and she ended up in the hospital.

Ultimately, she admitted to herself she effed up, was stupid and decided to forget face saving and decided she was going to humbly try and save her self, marriage and family. In effect she has offered an unconditional surrender.

Have I got this correct? I am a bit confused.


----------



## Chaparral

Its been mentioned that your wife was simply played. Her age may have played a part in that. Not saying that is an excuse but it would help others if that could be buttoned down. Read this post from a player that used to be here called findingmyway. If possible print this off, have your wife read it, and see if a light goes off in her head. I think you would have to watch her to see if there was an immediate reaction. Otherwise, she may, grasping at straws, latch on to any possible excuse but what I am hearing from you she is sincere.

("My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.")


----------



## 86857

No, @Chaparral. She hadn't stopped seeing OM. She was having an PA & Hantei found out. When he confronted WS, she told him she was going to leave him for a life with OM. 
But then OM dumped her. 
After that her remorse kicked in. 

Is that a good summary Hantei? Thought I'd save you the trouble .


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> I agree with you bandit, especially on being proactive however I'm not so sure about the counselling and therapy. Wouldn't it be just delegating to someone else what one needs to do him or her self?
> 
> She knows she messed up and needs help. I think (feel) she maybe thinking this help will come from me?


Not so much.

Take into account what you just said about the knowledge of TAM'ers. Counselors do this every day. Sometimes a professional is needed to help really deliver points home. This is especially true when we are personally involved. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> I see. I hope -naively most likely- she figures out the "Woman..." bit herself.
> 
> And yes for s ok me reason I think the counselor would focus on making her feeling ok and blaming me.
> 
> Anyway I'm determined not to offer or demand or suggest anything. If she decides to get counselling on her own, that may mean something to me.


Why?
@Hantei, whether you divorce and reconcile or just divorce, the best possible thing that could happen for BOTH OF YOU is for her to get into counseling.

It will help whether you date or just become co-parents.

Start thinking about things through that prism, brother.

Help for reconciliation only? Don't do it.
Help for coparenting only? Maybe.
Help for both? Win/win.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## sparrow555

Hantei said:


> What doesn't kill you makes you stronger?


Some might end up with giving you chronic pain for the rest of your life.


----------



## Marc878

farsidejunky said:


> Why?
> @Hantei, whether you divorce and reconcile or just divorce, the best possible thing that could happen for BOTH OF YOU is for her to get into counseling.
> 
> It will help whether you date or just become co-parents.
> 
> Start thinking about things through that prism, brother.
> 
> Help for reconciliation only? Don't do it.
> Help for coparenting only? Maybe.
> Help for both? Win/win.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


If you can find a good one. There are a lot of morons in this field that can cause more harm than good. They are not gods.


----------



## alte Dame

It sounds like her OM has forced her out of her fantasy by doing what we knew he would do. For me, your situation is made harder by the fact that her very real mother encouraged her fantasy world. I don't know what I would do, as a woman, if my mother had been so destructive.

Are you softening on your D stance? As her self-flagellation increases, your pride and hurt will be soothed a bit and you will feel more compassion, I expect. R is a long, tortuous slog, though, and for me would likely be something I wouldn't choose. (I have gone to the mat in my marriage for things very close to this, though, so who knows?)

I agree that a good therapist would help her, 'good' being the operative word. I assume that her head is one big screaming jumble right now. You can't unjumble that, H. I know that you know that, but I guess I need to say it again. What you can do is be an upstanding, honest, mature man who works hard, keeps himself healthy and is a good role model for his child. She wishes she hadn't devalued that so callously and stupidly, but the fact that she did is what she needs to understand and treat. Her job, not yours, and certainly not her child's to redeem.


----------



## Marc878

It still boils down to the fact she ended the marriage for her OM. If everything works out could you live with that? The marriage now is only a piece of worthless paper. You may as well use it to start your next BBQ with.

For me I'd continue with the separation/divorce and when I felt like it I'd play the field a bit. See how good the competition is. With as much no contact as possible with her. Let her figure her own sh!t out.

Just to see if maybe the woman of my dreams was out there. She ended this marriage. Tell her if she wants to get into IC later on maybe you could date. But no guarantees.


----------



## 86857

@Hantei, I feel you are now in the most vulnerable part of all this, vulnerable for you that is. 

You guys were teenagers in high school when you met, mere children. Neither of you have ever had another relationship AFAIK. 

So, I think it will be harder for you to walk away than for someone who had other relationships prior getting married. 
You haven't known anything else. If you walk away, it will be a very big wrench. 
You probably find it hard to imagine meeting someone else. I'm sure it's the last thing on your mind but I thought I would draw your attention to all this. 

I agree with a poster who said that all WS's remorse, begging to be taken back, even on a dating basis, full transparency etc may sway you. 

For the record, & I don't think I've said it before to try to be balanced, if I was in your shoes I just couldn't do R. It would be too much of a wound to have been told on D-Day, in no uncertain terms, that WS was going to run off into the sunset with OM & everyone would just have to 'deal with it'. What followed, OM dumping her & WS running back, that would only strengthen my resolve. I would regard it as a double whammy. 
I'd never get over being trashed like that and treated as if I was somehow disposable. 
If I did R, the wound would be so deep that I'd likely be hell for WS to live with forever. 

P.S. I don't believe in the concept of 'the one'. If people stay in their birth country, they meet 'the one' there. If they move countries when grown up, they meet 'the one' there. 
It's a big world out there & try not to be afraid of stepping into it if you walk away. Check out BFF's thread which has just been bumped. It's good to read about a BS who got past it & couldn't be happier now. He was also in his 40s. The way he dealt with it reminds me of your handling of your situation, which I think has been great.


----------



## Mike11

One difference though bff's wife never ask for reconciliation, she was in relationship with her ********* for very long time and in th open, I do see similarities between the cases but it is still somewhat different 





********** said:


> @Hantei, I feel you are now in the most vulnerable part of all this, vulnerable for you that is.
> 
> I think an important aspect of your situation is that you guys were teenagers in high school when you met, mere children. Neither of you have ever had another relationship AFAIK.
> 
> Therefore, I think it will be harder for you to walk away than for someone who had other relationships prior to meeting their spouse. You haven't known anything else.
> If you walk away, it will be a very big wrench.
> You will probably find it hard to even imagine meeting someone else. I'm sure it's the last thing on your mind right now but I thought I would draw your attention to all this.
> 
> I agree with a poster who said that all WS's remorse, begging to be taken back, even on a dating basis, full transparency etc may sway you.
> 
> And so, for the record and I don't think I've said it before as I try to be as balanced as possible for the sake of OP, if I was in your shoes I just couldn't do R. It would be too much of a wound to have been told on D-Day, in no uncertain terms, that WS was going to run off into the sunset with OM & everyone would just have to 'deal with it'. What followed, OM dumping her & WS running back, that would only strengthen my resolve. I would regard it as a double whammy.
> I'd never get over being trashed like that and treated as if I was somehow disposable.
> If I did R, the wound would be so deep that I'd likely be hell for WS to live with forever.
> 
> P.S. I don't believe in the concept of 'the one'. If people stay in their birth country, they meet 'the one' there. If they move countries when grown up, they meet 'the one' there.
> It's a big world out there Hantei & try not to be afraid of stepping into it if you walk away from this. Check out BFF's thread which has just been bumped. It's good to read about a BS who got past it & couldn't be happier now. He was also in his 40s. In fact the way he dealt with his betrayal reminds me of your handling of your situation, which I think has been great.


----------



## Mike11

bankshot1993 said:


> H, i know that you read through @LonelyHusband 's thread. He posted something today in post #1474 of his thread. The reason it resonated so much with me is because it is essentually something that i have been ruminating on in your situation for a couple of days.
> 
> I have a great deal of respect for the people on TAM that have been helping you on here and one of the greatest strengths they have is that their decisions and advice aren't clouded by their emotional connection to the situation, this allows them to keep a clear head.
> 
> The thing is though, it is also one of their greatest handicaps as well. None of us know your wife like you. None of us are seeing her face or hearing her words, we can't get a snse of sincerety or insincerety like you can. None of us can get a true sense of where her head is at like you.
> 
> The only thing I'm saying here is that while you are getting great advice here, the most important of which is that time is on your side, it is also important to remember none of us have all the pieces of the puzzle except for you. You've shown great instincts so far, don't forget to keep using them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This. ^^^^^^


----------



## 86857

Mike11 said:


> One difference though bff's wife never ask for reconciliation, she was in relationship with her ********* for very long time and in th open, I do see similarities between the cases but it is still somewhat different


 @Mike11. BFF said she pushed hard for R when he confronted. But I think once BFF found out it was PA he decided to walk away. So WS probably knew there was no point asking again. And she ended up keeping going with OM as you said. I have to add I only briefly read through it when it was bumped. 
You're right. No two stories are the same. I was talking about the wound which is horrible, regardless of the nuts & bolts of the A because trust has been destroyed. In Hantei's case, I think I would be too wounded for R & even if I wanted to I don't think I could do R. The wound would be too deep for me. And naturally, that is just my opinion & perspective on it. 


bankshot1993 said:


> The only thing I'm saying here is that while you are getting great advice here, the most important of which is that time is on your side, it is also important to remember none of us have all the pieces of the puzzle except for you. You've shown great instincts so far, don't forget to keep using them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I also agree with @bankshot1993. None of us have all the pieces of the puzzle and in the end Hantei will make up his own mind. The benefit of TAM I believe lies in the different perspectives tabled on here, together with the fact that most posters have been through the experience. It is always good to talk to someone who has been through an experience you are currently going through, even if in the end you end up handling it differently than they did.


----------



## Mike11

Absolutely **********, I am with you on that one


----------



## Chaparral

Several years ago there would have been a multitude of folks here encouraging reconcilliation under these circumstances. Also giving great advice as to the ins and outs of accomplishing reconcilliation. It's surprising how it seems everyone is advising divorce now in every situation.

Statistically about 35% reconcile. About 80% wish they had rather than divorce. This seems to have Von ether way of the dodo around here.


----------



## farsidejunky

There is a path to R. But @Hantei will have to accept that even though he may never want to see or hear from the MIL, that is simply not feasible.

It is also why I keep asking him what he wants and how he is doing. Temperature checks. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## alte Dame

********** said:


> P.S. I don't believe in the concept of 'the one'. If people stay in their birth country, they meet 'the one' there. If they move countries when grown up, they meet 'the one' there.
> It's a big world out there & try not to be afraid of stepping into it if you walk away. Check out BFF's thread which has just been bumped. It's good to read about a BS who got past it & couldn't be happier now. He was also in his 40s. The way he dealt with it reminds me of your handling of your situation, which I think has been great.


I agree. 'The one' is/was the man who was 'the one' out of all the men I had encountered in my life. It wasn't fate.

Also, definitely read bff's thread. He's very unusual, in my opinion, but he's a great role model for the rest of us plebes.


----------



## Be smart

Hantei your wife first need to answer some questions like WHY did she do it. 
She tells you she wants to R with you,then this is her first task to do. There is no way she can help you heal from all of this without knowing the cause of her Affair.

Some posters says she was having a mid life crisis,but my honest opinion is-she was searching for something more and she told you this (read pages 1,2,3). She was acting like almost happy person because this Marriage is going to end. 

No remorseful from her side,no tears and no asking for forgivnes UNTIL the end where she got dumped by the OM.

When she comes to your house ask her WHY did she never end this Affair. 

Stay strong.


----------



## Hantei

Well, at least she's not pregnant. But also learned technically it was a possibility if you know what I mean. Damn. 

I appreciate you guys keep talking to me.




Hantei said:


> Correct, it never crossed my mind until today. And if she's pregnant (with SOB 's child) the game is over. I don't have it in me to take her back with OM's child, I'm not a soap opera character.
> 
> May I please clarify the ONE WEEK thing although I don't disagree with the sentiment.
> 
> According to what I know she realised all of that very soon she left. She then assumed (knowing me) it's over and was just trying to keep face with moving on and all. Untill last Friday when she realised she can't keep it anymore and needs at least to try. Al least that's the story.


----------



## Hantei

You have got this absolutely correct, except for what @********** clarified later (thanks!). Which doesn't make your summary wrong but does put it into context.

She was having a PA and it took me finding out (and listening to that long voice-mail from SOB talking about her body) and him dumping her because of it. 

Small detail that changes everything. 





Chaparral said:


> So, reading your timeline, it doesn't look like it was going anywhere anyway. She was never comfortable with it and did feel very guilty. She had already stopped seeing him but he was trying to reel her back in.
> 
> When caught she panicked, tried to play it cool and made up reasons why she strayed assumed you were finished with her, and tried to save face.
> 
> Her emotional state deteriorated quickly and she ended up in the hospital.
> 
> Ultimately, she admitted to herself she effed up, was stupid and decided to forget face saving and decided she was going to humbly try and save her self, marriage and family. In effect she has offered an unconditional surrender.
> 
> Have I got this correct? I am a bit confused.


----------



## Hantei

Ok, you've got me convinced. Will go under 2 conditions- if SHE asks for it and if SHE finds a good one. 




farsidejunky said:


> Not so much.
> 
> Take into account what you just said about the knowledge of TAM'ers. Counselors do this every day. Sometimes a professional is needed to help really deliver points home. This is especially true when we are personally involved.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk





farsidejunky said:


> Why?
> @Hantei, whether you divorce and reconcile or just divorce, the best possible thing that could happen for BOTH OF YOU is for her to get into counseling.
> 
> It will help whether you date or just become co-parents.
> 
> Start thinking about things through that prism, brother.
> 
> Help for reconciliation only? Don't do it.
> Help for coparenting only? Maybe.
> Help for both? Win/win.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

alte Dame said:


> It sounds like her OM has forced her out of her fantasy by doing what we knew he would do. For me, your situation is made harder by the fact that her very real mother encouraged her fantasy world. I don't know what I would do, as a woman, if my mother had been so destructive.


Correct. I'm surprised she didn't see it. She may end up with no husband and no mother.



alte Dame said:


> are you softening on your D stance?


Absolutely not.


----------



## Marc878

Be real carefull with any IC, MC!!!!

If you start hearing Hantie you were mean to your wife six years ago when you left the commode seat up and that's what caused her to let OM put his p in her v.

On the other hand if you can get a good solid one. Excellent.


----------



## bankshot1993

Hantei said:


> Ok, you've got me convinced. Will go under 2 conditions- if SHE asks for it and if SHE finds a good one.


I agree, it should be her idea not H's, and honestly the only value in h going along is if there is a consideration to R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hantei

Now that's a deep and insightful one.




********** said:


> @Hantei, I feel you are now in the most vulnerable part of all this, vulnerable for you that is.
> 
> You guys were teenagers in high school when you met, mere children. Neither of you have ever had another relationship AFAIK.


I did, she didn't. Clarifies somehow I guess? 

Yet it is hard to walk away.



********** said:


> regard it as a double whammy.
> I'd
> 
> 
> ********** said:
> 
> 
> 
> never get over being trashed like that and treated as if I was somehow disposable.
> If I did R, the wound would be so deep that I'd likely be hell for WS to live with forever.
> 
> 
> 
> Triple whammy if you ask me - some things a way to personal to post even after I've posted everything else.
> 
> And if I'd need yet another reason not to R this is it. If we R I'll be a horrible person to live with (comparing to the previous state). She's telling me she's ready to deal with that- for how long?
> 
> Thanks for the encouraging words.
Click to expand...


----------



## Hantei

alte Dame said:


> I agree. 'The one' is/was the man who was 'the one' out of all the men I had encountered in my life. It wasn't fate.
> 
> Also, definitely read bff's thread. He's very unusual, in my opinion, but he's a great role model for the rest of us plebes.


You are right. If I ever believed in "the one" (I did) I certainly don't now.

I was in @bff shoes unitil STBXW started pushed for R. Now I'm not though the outcome is going to be the same -99%.

I never consider you all as plebs. I dislike elite of any kind (MIL for example  )


----------



## Tron

Chaparral said:


> Several years ago there would have been a multitude of folks here encouraging reconcilliation under these circumstances. Also giving great advice as to the ins and outs of accomplishing reconcilliation. It's surprising how it seems everyone is advising divorce now in every situation.
> 
> Statistically about 35% reconcile. About 80% wish they had rather than divorce. This seems to have Von ether way of the dodo around here.


I guess I am one of the ones willing to step in and suggest that this WW may be getting close. 

I have a problem with the idea that waywards and this WW in particular should intuitively know what needs to be done to make R possible.

How would she know this? 

Counseling? She's never had it before

Mommy issues? She's got them

What about her husband? I think she believes that this was a deal-breaker from the very beginning. And Hantei hasn't given her any indications so far that this is even a remote possibility. He has been stone cold and all business with divorce. What is one to do when facing no hope?

Why is leaving Chap's list on the kitchen counter or sending her a link to "How to Heal Your Spouse" something that shouldn't be considered? If she takes the initiative, takes the steps, pulls up her bootstraps, gets her $hit together, gets counseling, works the program, and in the process fixes herself and works to heal H, why is this not something that we shouldn't support.

I'm also a little confused about the timeline and order of events. I went back and read the first dozen or so posts by Hantei and the PA, the discovery, the exposure, the end of the A and her moving out happened very quickly, did it not? A couple weeks, right? That doesn't seem to me to be a very long period of time for her to formulate or dream up some long future with the AP. 

Hantei's WW wasn't one of the more brutal and emasculating waywards we've seen. What she spouted off seemed to be more of the same typical fog bull$hit we hear from waywards who just got caught up in the excitement of something new and later regretted.

Hantei, do you want to give her an opening? An opportunity to try to salvage something here, to help heal you, or not?


----------



## Mike11

Tron said:


> I guess I am one of the ones willing to step in and suggest that this WW may be getting close.
> 
> I have a problem with the idea that waywards and this WW in particular should intuitively know what needs to be done to make R possible.
> 
> How would she know this?
> 
> Counseling? She's never had it before
> 
> Mommy issues? She's got them
> 
> What about her husband? I think she believes that this was a deal-breaker from the very beginning. And Hantei hasn't given her any indications so far that this is even a remote possibility. He has been stone cold and all business with divorce. What is one to do when facing no hope?
> 
> Why is leaving Chap's list on the kitchen counter or sending her a link to "How to Heal Your Spouse" something that shouldn't be considered? If she takes the initiative, takes the steps, pulls up her bootstraps, gets her $hit together, gets counseling, works the program, and in the process fixes herself and works to heal H, why is this not something that we shouldn't support.
> 
> I'm also a little confused about the timeline and order of events. I went back and read the first dozen or so posts by Hantei and the PA, the discovery, the exposure, the end of the A and her moving out happened very quickly, did it not? A couple weeks, right? That doesn't seem to me to be a very long period of time for her to formulate or dream up some long future with the AP.
> 
> Hantei's WW wasn't one of the more brutal and emasculating waywards we've seen. What she spouted off seemed to be more of the same typical fog bull$hit we hear from waywards who just got caught up in the excitement of something new and later regretted.
> 
> Hantei, do you want to give her an opening? An opportunity to try to salvage something here, to help heal you, or not?


This ^^^^

I would not make any decisions right now Hantei, until you at least see what she is willing to do, I would give her some sort of hope as a "lets wait and see, you have 9 months to do what needs to be done to from your end" type of hope, without any commitment from your end.

there are also external factors as I mentioned before (SOB definitely will try to play the field with her again) which will be a good test on her resolve, 

I would think that with counseling, she may be able to help you to get overcome the horrible things said when caught, this is still raw and I think you are in a state of shock somewhat as well, I would think counseling to the both of you would be best at this stage.


----------



## TDSC60

Hantei said:


> Well, at least she's not pregnant. But also learned technically it was a possibility if you know what I mean. Damn.


Is it the time of the month that verifies no pregnancy or was she tested?

Technically possible means an STD check for her and you. OM may have been "enlightening" many woman.


----------



## Marc878

I'll say this again as it needs to be repeated. Hantie like all of us has to make the decision on whether this is something he can live with permenantly. With that said entering into an R forgiving and getting over this (not saying they'll ever forget) to the degree they can have a good marriage again would need to be achieved.

Staying together and him living in a constant reminder of this and taking it out on her would be folly. Why go through that kind of hell and waste both lives?

IMO I suspect she knows she made a major lifetime fvck up. Her knowledge of Hantei says a lot. From what I discerned she knows him and the concern was he's not the type to forgive or forget.

I would be more concerned that Hantei may not be able to R (it's all about the character makeup) than her. IMO she could/would do what was needed given a laid out plan and be fine.

I take this from myself. I couldn't do it. I get burned I carry it to the grave. Plus I would scoop out my right eye with dull spoon just to get even when wronged. 

*BUT I'm not Hantei. *The good thing is he has plenty of time to figure this out and is doing the right thing in seeking guidance and diverse opinions, etc.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> Well, at least she's not pregnant. But also learned technically it was a possibility if you know what I mean. Damn.
> 
> I appreciate you guys keep talking to me.


Well you know she wasn't using protection with him. 

If you ever want to have sex with her make sure she goes to the doc and gets tested. 

Has she offered sex?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

bandit.45 said:


> Well you know she wasn't using protection with him.
> 
> If you ever want to have sex with her make sure she goes to the doc and gets tested.
> 
> Has she offered sex?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep, it's hard to tell what that SOB has stuck his pp in.


----------



## sparrow555

I think Hantei's wife went a bit crazy and probably got really clingy with the OM after the D-day. Which probably scared him off.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

If I may make a suggestion sir, let her stew a bit in the **** she made. Life lesson. I spent six weeks away from my wife with the exception of the day she Pearl Harbored me in Florida. He a significant impact on her. 

Should you decide to r make sure you get a good MC. That is paramount to a successful r. 

There are many similarities I deduce from your post that your wife like mine who was essentially an only child have an entitlement streak. The difference I see are the MILs. Her mom was in my corner, your wife's mother needs a big ass attitude adjustment. Seems snobbish and arrogant by your posts. 

You have handled your situation superbly!


----------



## Tron

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> You have handled your situation superbly!


I would agree. 

And I'd like to point out for those other readers that may sit in your positions in the future that you both responded to your wives' affairs with strength and steel resolve and both wind up in a position where the choice to R or not is in your hands.

In stark contrast there are a few others who chose to attempt Harley's Plan A & B that wind up with no choice but to divorce after long and painful limbo.

Im not one to make large generalizations but...


----------



## Marc878

Tron said:


> I would agree.
> 
> And I'd like to point out for those other readers that may sit in your positions in the future that you both responded to your wives' affairs with strength and steel resolve and both wind up in a position where the choice to R or not is in your hands.
> 
> In stark contrast there are a few others who chose to attempt Harley's Plan A & B that wind up with no choice but to divorce after long and painful limbo.
> 
> Im not one to make large generalizations but...


Yeah it's hard work cryin, begging, whining. I don't think I could get the snot to dribble out of my nose right :|


----------



## Hantei

I'd consider doing something like that if internally I can find myself accepting a possibility for any outcome rather than non-hostile co-parenting. If I do I'll leave a breadcrumb like you suggested. I agree she wouldn't know on my own unless she starts posting here.l (hope not).

I am confused by the speed of a turnaround as well. I have no explanation apart from what I've posted. It is what it is.






Tron said:


> I guess I am one of the ones willing to step in and suggest that this WW may be getting close.
> 
> I have a problem with the idea that waywards and this WW in particular should intuitively know what needs to be done to make R possible.
> 
> How would she know this?
> 
> Counseling? She's never had it before
> 
> Mommy issues? She's got them
> 
> What about her husband? I think she believes that this was a deal-breaker from the very beginning. And Hantei hasn't given her any indications so far that this is even a remote possibility. He has been stone cold and all business with divorce. What is one to do when facing no hope?
> 
> Why is leaving Chap's list on the kitchen counter or sending her a link to "How to Heal Your Spouse" something that shouldn't be considered? If she takes the initiative, takes the steps, pulls up her bootstraps, gets her $hit together, gets counseling, works the program, and in the process fixes herself and works to heal H, why is this not something that we shouldn't support.
> 
> I'm also a little confused about the timeline and order of events. I went back and read the first dozen or so posts by Hantei and the PA, the discovery, the exposure, the end of the A and her moving out happened very quickly, did it not? A couple weeks, right? That doesn't seem to me to be a very long period of time for her to formulate or dream up some long future with the AP.
> 
> Hantei's WW wasn't one of the more brutal and emasculating waywards we've seen. What she spouted off seemed to be more of the same typical fog bull$hit we hear from waywards who just got caught up in the excitement of something new and later regretted.
> 
> Hantei, do you want to give her an opening? An opportunity to try to salvage something here, to help heal you, or not?


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> I'd consider doing something like that if internally I can find myself accepting a possibility for any outcome rather than non-hostile co-parenting. If I do I'll leave a breadcrumb like you suggested. I agree she wouldn't know on my own unless she starts posting here.l (hope not).
> 
> *I am confused by the speed of a turnaround as well. I have no explanation apart from what I've posted.* It is what it is.


This is why it came fast.

This was not a LTA. It appears from some of the info after the first confrontation and SOB ran it brought her back to reality pretty quick. 

Plus if I remember correctly from Hantei it was one of those decisions made that she immediately or soon after knew she Fvcked up. 

Which didn't correlate with the original statements during the confrontation. Maybe because she assumed there's no recourse.

Correct me if you I'm wrong.


----------



## Hantei

TDSC60 said:


> Is it the time of the month that verifies no pregnancy or was she tested?
> 
> Technically possible means an STD check for her and you. OM may have been "enlightening" many woman.


She was in the hospital as she was not able to cope with stress. They did the test (standard routine). When I asked directly she said she's not pregnant and is willing to show me the discharge papers. But judging the absolute horror look in her eyes I did ask her (shouldn't in hindsight? ) if this was a real possibility. She admitted it was 




bandit.45 said:


> Has she offered sex?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Obviously she did otherwise I wouldn't be here

Seriously - shall I say she made it 100% clear she wants it but given my state (can't stand any physical contact atm) she knows it's not the right time- not sure it will ever be.

Due to our history I'm taking the physical aspect harder than many.

I'm STD tested.


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> This is why it came fast.
> 
> This was not a LTA. It appears from some of the info after the first confrontation and SOB ran it brought her back to reality pretty quick.
> 
> Plus if I remember correctly from Hantei it was one of those decisions made that she immediately or soon after knew she Fvcked up.
> 
> Which didn't correlate with the original statements during the confrontation. Maybe because she assumed there's no recourse.
> 
> Correct me if you I'm wrong.


You are absolutely right.


----------



## Hantei

You are right there are similarities and there are differences. You have been able to reconcile, I take it as a strength not a weakness and wish you not to regret it. At least it looks there's something positive for you in your new marriage. ATM I can't find anything positive for me if I'm R.

I'm letting her to "stew" - only for me it comes naturally not as some sort of planned move.

Thank you. 




Lonely husband 42301 said:


> If I may make a suggestion sir, let her stew a bit in the **** she made. Life lesson. I spent six weeks away from my wife with the exception of the day she Pearl Harbored me in Florida. He a significant impact on her.
> 
> Should you decide to r make sure you get a good MC. That is paramount to a successful r.
> 
> There are many similarities I deduce from your post that your wife like mine who was essentially an only child have an entitlement streak. The difference I see are the MILs. Her mom was in my corner, your wife's mother needs a big ass attitude adjustment. Seems snobbish and arrogant by your posts.
> 
> You have handled your situation superbly!


----------



## becareful

I'm having troubling imagining that she can go no contact with her mother should Hantei choose to reconcile. She is, after all, her mother's daughter. Would she not go see her mother if her mother was ill or on her deathbed? Would her mother not pass a message to her father to relay to her? She's living with her mother right now. I imagine they are talking. I'd be curious to know if they have argued since the fallout. 

Also, Hantei, your wife says she's not pregnant (present tense). Did she have time for an abortion? Was her visit to the hospital really for stress or for something else? Is your wife known for lying before all of this?


----------



## Tron

I know it's complex and will be difficult as well as painful to explain, but what do you feel when you look at her?


----------



## Marc878

becareful said:


> I'm having troubling imagining that she can go no contact with her mother should Hantei choose to reconcile. She is, after all, her mother's daughter. Would she not go see her mother if her mother was ill or on her deathbed? Would her mother not pass a message to her father to relay to her? She's living with her mother right now. I imagine they are talking. I'd be curious to know if they have argued since the fallout.


She will not separate from her mother forever. 

However, if this were me it would not be the main problem because that lowlife, hypocritical, @&$!?/@&$, would never be allowed to darken my damn doorstep and this would be communicated from me to the whole family verbally and if I couldn't get an audience from the cowardly worthless @&$([email protected]/? I'd send an audio of it to each and every one. I get the WW did the deed but this sewed the seed.

After that there would never be another word spoken to her. And I'd definitely not attend her funeral.


----------



## 86857

Maybe pretend to yourself, if you can, that you are not going to do R. Imagine that you're divorced. 
Keep the contact to a minimum, you can make excuses & try to get into the headspace that you are co-parenting only. 
Maybe do it for a couple of weeks & see how it sits with you. 
You don't have to say anything to her at this stage anyway. No rush. 

I dunno, it probably sounds daft . 
I was trying to put myself in your position & the above crossed my mind.


----------



## Marc878

86857 said:


> Maybe pretend to yourself, if you can, that you are not going to do R. Imagine that you're divorced.
> Keep the contact to a minimum, you can make excuses & try to get into the headspace that you are co-parenting only.
> Maybe do it for a couple of weeks & see how it sits with you.
> You don't have to say anything to her at this stage anyway. No rush.
> 
> I dunno, it probably sounds daft .
> I was trying to put myself in your position & the above crossed my mind.


He should absolutely put this into practice now. It's a consequence that needs to happen.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> Due to our history I'm taking the physical aspect harder than many.
> 
> I'm STD tested.


Was she? it didn't seem clear. Again a consequence that for you if there's any future a must do.


----------



## becareful

Is it just me or does it seem like Hantei's wife's words to him were more devastating than the actual PA itself?


----------



## Hantei

sparrow555 said:


> I think Hantei's wife went a bit crazy and probably got really clingy with the OM after the D-day. Which probably scared him off.


More like high maintenance no more fun woman.



becareful said:


> I'm having troubling imagining that she can go no contact with her mother should Hantei choose to reconcile. She is, after all, her mother's daughter. Would she not go see her mother if her mother was ill or on her deathbed? Would her mother not pass a message to her father to relay to her? She's living with her mother right now. I imagine they are talking. I'd be curious to know if they have argued since the fallout.
> 
> Also, Hantei, your wife says she's not pregnant (present tense). Did she have time for an abortion? Was her visit to the hospital really for stress or for something else? Is your wife known for lying before all of this?


I know about at least one huge fight between them. Abortion is not even a remote theoretical possibility. She went to ER for stress and it has been confirmed so that part is true. No she's never been known for lying at all, I can't stress this enough.



Tron said:


> I know it's complex and will be difficult as well as painful to explain, but what do you feel when you look at her?


Mate I don't know. It's. ..fluctuating. Really hard and dark. One thing is certain- as @86857 pointed out I'm ok with being single now.





Marc878 said:


> Was she? it didn't seem clear. in a consequence that for you if there's any future a must do.


I don'tknow . Maybe while in hospital? I'm afraid if I demand she'd take it as a hint I'm willing to get intimate. .. which I'm not.


----------



## Hantei

becareful said:


> Is it just me or does it seem like Hantei's wife's words to him were more devastating than the actual PA itself?


100% not. I'm confident enough to forgive any words, not having sex with some salesman then coming home as nothing happened.

You don't know how much I hate the PA.


----------



## eric1

I think that you have the full truth and honestly it sounds like the PA was a dealbreaker (90% by your words).

Then why not keep things simple? By stringing things out false hope can be built and if false hope is pulled things can get nasty.

Why not say something like 'I'm reasonably sure that I will not change my mind. However I want to like you again as a person for my own sake and for the benefit of our coparenting. I'd like to attend some counseling with you to help with those. I hope that you are open to this'

- it kills false hope
- it is probably the fullest truth that you can give her. This is a kindness.
- R is off the table unless you do something like this anyhow, although she doesn't need to know that nor does that need to be your focus. But you never know.


----------



## Marc878

> I don'tknow . Maybe while in hospital? I'm afraid if I demand she'd take it as a hint I'm willing to get intimate. .. which I'm not.


ah, good point. You can address that later if needed.


----------



## 86857

Hantei said:


> 100% not. I'm confident enough to forgive any words, not having sex with some salesman then coming home as nothing happened.
> 
> You don't know how much I hate the PA.


Yes @Hantei, the PA is a deal breaker for many BS on here. 

Can't get my head around a WS having sex, & yet they then act as loving as usual. BS usually pick up signs as WS ISN'T acting 'normal'. There were no signs. You would have seen them. 

It always made me wonder if she decided early on she was going to run off with OM. IMO, if ones mind is made up, it's easier to act 'normal' as one isn't be torn between the two or feeling guilty - because they think they are doing the 'right thing', for themselves that is. There was no guilt in what she said on D-day. The opposite. 

With PA, some folks know full well they will never be able to get past the mind movies. These same folks usually act the way you did, take swift action, check out financials & legals and do the 180, etc with great resolve. . . because they're so disgusted with the PA aspect I think. 

I dunno. Just my opinion. 
P.S. How is son doing? Is he accepting the situation at some level? Does he ask you about it? Boys are less inclined to do so than girls though.


----------



## Graywolf2

eric1 said:


> I think that you have the full truth and honestly it sounds like the PA was a deal breaker (90% by your words).


More importantly, “because of what kind of man Hantei is,” his wife knew it was a deal breaker before she did it. 



Hantei said:


> 100% not. I'm confident enough to forgive any words, not having sex with some salesman then coming home as nothing happened.
> 
> You don't know how much I hate the PA.


This is quite common. Women tend to have more trouble with the emotional aspect or their spouse’s affair while men tend to have more trouble with the physical aspect of their spouse’s affair.

It’s very primitive caveman stuff. 

Women know 100% that the kids that came out of them are theirs. Men can’t say the same about the kids that come out of their mate. Before DNA a man’s only assurance that he was providing for his own kid was his mate’s faithfulness. His mate can talk to other men all day long as long as they don't have sex.

Women care about the emotional side because they want a man that will stay around and provide resources for her kid’s survival. Her mate can have sex with any female as long as he doesn’t run off with her and take his recourses with him. The other woman's kids can starve.



becareful said:


> I'm having troubling imagining that she can go no contact with her mother should Hantei choose to reconcile. She is, after all, her mother's daughter. Would she not go see her mother if her mother was ill or on her deathbed?


This is correct. She has to have some contact with her parents (her dad wasn’t great). Don’t go back with her with a condition she will have to break to some degree. Accept that she will have to have some contact with them. 

If you don't let them have some contact you will be the bad guy. If she has some contact when she agreed not to have any, and you stay with her, you will appear weak. Be the wise gatekeeper that decides when she can contact them.


----------



## bandit.45

Maybe I'm speaking out of turn but....

Hantie do you think your MIL is working hard to set her daughter up with as many potential suitors as possible?. I doubt she wants your WW to R with you. She is a wealthy gal, and wealthy people entertain lots of friends. i don't see her sitting still allowing her daughter to return to the relationship she has tried so hard to destroy.


----------



## TDSC60

Hantei said:


> Due to our history I'm taking the physical aspect harder than many.
> 
> I'm STD tested.


The physical aspect would mean divorce and never look back to me. That is the ultimate betrayal that I could never get over.

I think you are dealing with this whole thing very well.


----------



## alte Dame

Some people manage to reconcile after a PA. Some people can't and won't. You sound like you may well be in the latter camp.

So, H., I hope you are paying attention to the 180 still. This is a tried and true way to fake it until you make it & will give you as much strength as possible to feel confident in your decisions.

Of course, you can live without her. You did it before. You can do it again. This is a kind of hell you've been in and you have no choice but to keep going. You will emerge from it, however, and you want to be a man that you can respect when that happens.

I have always pushed against the idea that other people can rule my decisions, and thus my life. We are social animals, though, so how can it be otherwise? Just remember that our instinct for survival is what is generating your pain - you have loved your wife, a result of our natural urge to procreate. You also need to ensure that you yourself survive. In the best of worlds, our need to continue the species is in harmony with our need for self-preservation. In cases of infidelity, however, not so much.

You're doing great, H. I'm sending you vibes.


----------



## Tron

Hantei said:


> Mate I don't know. It's. ..fluctuating. Really hard and dark. One thing is certain- as @********** pointed out I'm ok with being single now.


Can you explain "hard and dark"?


----------



## Graywolf2

alte Dame said:


> Some people manage to reconcile after a PA. Some people can't and won't. You sound like you may well be in the latter camp.


A PA would be pretty much a deal breaker for me too. The only way that I would even have the possibility of R would be to divorce. I *might* be able to live with an ex wife who cheated on me but not with a current wife that did.


----------



## TDSC60

Graywolf2 said:


> A PA would be pretty much a deal breaker for me too. The only way that I would even have the possibility of R would be to divorce. I *might* be able to live with an ex wife who cheated on me but not with a current wife that did.


I agree. After the divorce, she could become a live-in GF if you are willing. Although I would have to have some time for physical and emotional separation before making that decision. 

It is much easier to break off things with a cheating GF than a cheating wife. Well, easier with regard to legal matters anyway.


----------



## Be smart

My friend you dont have to make your decision any time soon,take your time. You dont own it to your wife,only to yourself. 

What worries me is that your wife is doing verry little to show you she is sorry and she feels ashamed of her actions. 

STDs tests,pregnancy test and appointment with a good therapist is a nice way to show you she wants to stay married,but in her case she did nothing of it. 

She said it was "only" two times with the OM but she still went with no thinking about protection and safety about her and yours life. This shows me she was trusting OM so much and she put him in the first place,not caring about you at all.

I will be honest,when my ex-fiance cried and begged me to take her back I was feeling better. I dont know how to express myself but seeing her tears and all talk "sorry,please" made me feel good in some way. But I wanted to see action,not words. You can say a lot of things,make promises but not a single of them is worth if you are not ready to back them up and make them real.

Your wife cries a lot at this moment,but back then she didnt even let a single tear over you and your Marriage.

There are some unaswered questions but the most important is why did she never end this Affair. What would happen if OM never dumped her!!! This is crucial for you my friend. 

Stay strong.


----------



## Marc878

alte Dame said:


> Some people manage to reconcile after a PA. Some people can't and won't. You sound like you may well be in the latter camp.
> 
> So, H., I hope you are paying attention to the 180 still. This is a tried and true way to fake it until you make it & will give you as much strength as possible to feel confident in your decisions.
> 
> Of course, you can live without her. You did it before. You can do it again. This is a kind of hell you've been in and you have no choice but to keep going. You will emerge from it, however, and you want to be a man that you can respect when that happens.
> 
> I have always pushed against the idea that other people can rule my decisions, and thus my life. We are social animals, though, so how can it be otherwise? Just remember that our instinct for survival is what is generating your pain - you have loved your wife, a result of our natural urge to procreate. You also need to ensure that you yourself survive. In the best of worlds, our need to continue the species is in harmony with our need for self-preservation. In cases of infidelity, however, not so much.
> 
> You're doing great, H. I'm sending you vibes.


Look deep. You know yourself. If a PA is a deal breaker do the right thing. Not only for you but her as well. Don't ruin both your lives. If you can't hack it I think you have enough love left for her to just let her go.

Short term it'll be painfull but long term you can both get your lives back.


----------



## Mike11

I think that Hantei's wife like (many Waywards) was caught in the excitement From what I was able to understand she did not intended to have a PA with the SOB when she went to meet him more of a curiosity thing, the "boredom" or discontent with the marriage was already there and SOB was quick to pray on that and play Her to a compromising position (pun not intended) , I am not justifying her actions but we hear many stories of this kind, she does not seem to plan this nor has the callousness you see with many waywards on this board. The way I see it (correct me if I am wrong here H. ) she got played and manipulated to some extent to have sex with SOB, him playing on her state of mind, she got carried away, ( not justifying her actions, just pointing an observation ) she felt horrible about it but hid it from H 
However the time span between she cheated and H catching her did not allow her guilt to eat at her, add these excitement and the rush of adrenaline doing a "forbidden" deed it kept her in a very early affair state of mind. 
Given she was caught early and obviously knowing H better she knew he will never forget not forgive her she had tried to save face and hide the Shame to her family by giving the " I am looking for a bigger better deal" speech hedging her bets that the SOB will want a relationship with her.
This did not happened and hens the stress and hospitalization, by that time all hell broke loose, My take on that is that all happened very fast, and as much as this is a colossal F.UP by H's Wife I would think he still need to see if she is walking the walk and not just talking the talk, he has nothing to lose, the D is going ahead and he has 9 Months to make his mind up 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

eric1 said:


> I think that you have the full truth and honestly it sounds like the PA was a dealbreaker (90% by your words).
> Then why not keep things simple? By stringing things out false hope can be built and if false hope is pulled things can get nasty.


I was 100% ready - I'd say I have done that when it was obvious she's moving on. Now when she seems to be coming around It's much harder to pull the plug. I understand about OM is dumping her, that it took me to catch her and all. I may end up doing exactly that but ATM I'm in a waiting mode to understand what I'm pulling th plug on. I'm not claiming that what I'm doing is optimal. 




********** said:


> Can't get my head around a WS having sex, & yet they then act as loving as usual. BS usually pick up signs as WS ISN'T acting 'normal'. There were no signs. You would have seen them.
> It always made me wonder if she decided early on she was going to run off with OM. IMO, if ones mind is made up, it's easier to act 'normal' as one isn't be torn between the two or feeling guilty - because they think they are doing the 'right thing', for themselves that is. There was no guilt in what she said on D-day. The opposite.


This is a bit that has me puzzled. Either I was too blind and missed the signs or this whole thing was so quick (again why?) so the signs were just not there. I have no explanation.



********** said:


> P.S. How is son doing? Is he accepting the situation at some level? Does he ask you about it? Boys are less inclined to do so than girls though.


He is working through that and doing alright... however I'm not allowing myself to forget he's a teen who's life (loving home) has been shattered in a matter of weeks. He is... growing through it. Each time I get reminded about him (this is not a subtle request to stop mentioning him, I need that, it was very nice of you to ask) I start craving to go totally dark on STBXW and catch the SOB in the parking lot (again the only thing stopping me is that it won't end up well for my kid).




Graywolf2 said:


> More importantly, because of what kind of man Hantei is,his wife knew it was a deal breaker before she did it.


You see we have never discussed this... because even the possibility of that didn;t cross our (miy at least) minds. Even some time ago whe I start reading TAM bacouse of a messy affair someon close to me got involved (think I mentioned this) we have never play tested it "on us".



Graywolf2 said:


> This is correct. She has to have some contact with her parents (her dad wasn't great). ... Accept that she will have to have some contact with them.
> If you don't let them have some contact you will be the bad guy. If she has some contact when she agreed not to have any, and you stay with her, you will appear weak. Be the wise gatekeeper that decides when she can contact them.


Exactly. As I mentioned I'm not asking for anything but what she has offered so far is that she will be keeping contact with her father trying to avoid contact with MIL. She prpomises she will never ask me to attend their residence and will minimise contact with MIL to bare nesessities (health issues, etc) after some sort of cooling off no contact period. 




bandit.45 said:


> Maybe I'm speaking out of turn but....
> Hantie do you think your MIL is working hard to set her daughter up with as many potential suitors as possible?. I doubt she wants your WW to R with you. She is a wealthy gal, and wealthy people entertain lots of friends. i don't see her sitting still allowing her daughter to return to the relationship she has tried so hard to destroy.


You are not out of turn. I do not think she wanted to destroy the relationship and I think now she wants us to R - more so to "save the face". This has always been important to her. Once we D - or whe she sees D is einevitable she will definitelly try to set her up under the pretence that "she was right". Or perhaps as soon as STBXW starts talking to her, whatever comes first?

She told me she realises the bad influence of MIl and her circles and the destructive role of MIL. What she said is that she is not talking a lot about MIL to me for 2 reasons. 1st she is afraid that it may look like she shifting the blame and responsibility, she is not blaiming MIL for her decisions. 2nd as we don't talk much these days she does not want to waste that time. 



Tron said:


> Can you explain "hard and dark"?


Not sue if I can. She used to be a source of joy, now she is not. She looks the same (apart from she is not in the best shape of course) she sounds the same but... I don't know.


----------



## Hantei

Thanks for the vibes @alte Dame. Means a lot.

Yes I am in 180 mode and yes I have lived myself before. I was leaving on my own after high school and yanked STBXW straight out of home.



alte Dame said:


> Some people manage to reconcile after a PA. Some people can't and won't. You sound like you may well be in the latter camp.
> 
> So, H., I hope you are paying attention to the 180 still. This is a tried and true way to fake it until you make it & will give you as much strength as possible to feel confident in your decisions.
> 
> Of course, you can live without her. You did it before. You can do it again. This is a kind of hell you've been in and you have no choice but to keep going. You will emerge from it, however, and you want to be a man that you can respect when that happens.
> 
> I have always pushed against the idea that other people can rule my decisions, and thus my life. We are social animals, though, so how can it be otherwise? Just remember that our instinct for survival is what is generating your pain - you have loved your wife, a result of our natural urge to procreate. You also need to ensure that you yourself survive. In the best of worlds, our need to continue the species is in harmony with our need for self-preservation. In cases of infidelity, however, not so much.
> 
> You're doing great, H. I'm sending you vibes.


----------



## Graywolf2

Graywolf2 said:


> More importantly, “because of what kind of man Hantei is,” his wife knew it was a deal breaker before she did it.





Hantei said:


> You see we have never discussed this... because even the possibility of that didn;t cross our (miy at least) minds. Even some time ago whe I start reading TAM bacouse of a messy affair someon close to me got involved (think I mentioned this) we have never play tested it "on us".


*Wait a minute, I’m confused.

*


Hantei said:


> According to what I know she realised all of that very soon she left. *She then assumed (knowing me) it's over and was just trying to keep face *with moving on and all. Untill last Friday when she realised she can't keep it anymore and needs at least to try. Al least that's the story.


The reason she didn’t at least try was because (knowing you) it’s over. To me that means she knew it was a deal breaker. If she didn’t know it was a deal breaker then what is her new story for not *initially* trying to save the marriage?


----------



## Hantei

Graywolf2 said:


> *Wait a minute, I’m confused.
> 
> *
> 
> The reason she didn’t at least try was because (knowing you) it’s over. To me that means she knew it was a deal breaker. If she didn’t know it was a deal breaker then what is her new story for not trying to save the marriage?


What I mean is that before (happy days) we never had a reason for me to sit her down and set a boundary in clear. E.g. I never had to say "if you ever cheat and it's not physical I may consider R, if it is physical then we are done". It was always assumed cheating is out of question.

So her earlier statements about me "not fighting for the marriage " was because my reaction told me it's over.


----------



## Hantei

You are right. It is hard to pull the plug after so many year , but at the same time I can't imagine what's she could do to convince me she "chose me" as you put it and would do the same even if I hadn't busted her.





sapientia said:


> Hi Hantei - I have refrained from posting given how well others have been supporting you.
> 
> You seem to be having trouble making your final decision. This is completely understandable for the length of your marriage. This is more than closing the door on your wife, it's closing the door on a chapter of your life -- you two have been together longer than you've been sentient.
> 
> You might consider what it would take to forgive your WW and work on your marriage. If such as thing is even possible. For me, if s/he had come out of the fog and *chosen* me over the OM, before he dumped her, this would have some weight. Combined with a real sense of remorse, perhaps a forgiving soul might be able to look forward.
> 
> But that didn't happen. So I have no idea how you would ever judge her sincerity and trust her again. She didn't choose you, and you may very well be sloppy seconds... until the next opportunity, emotionally weak moment, or what have you. For me, that inability to ever trust again would be the eventual dealbreaker.
> 
> Just something to think about. My way of thinking may or may not suit you. Wishing you peace as you go forward.
> 
> - Sapi


----------



## farsidejunky

@Hantei:

There isn't anything she can say. Her credibility is for shyt after the drivel of the fog. 

You have to decide if she is worth investing in again. Her actions will tell you that, not her words. 

Don't lie to yourself and say there is something she can say to help you feel more comfortable with R.

Eventually, you will have to take a chance in either R or D. Both carry potential risks and rewards. 
There is something to be said for D and dating. I can understand that. But ultimately, unless there is a significant monetary benefit, this path is one large shyt test. 

"Prove to me that you love me by enduring D and then dating."

Sure, it's symbolic. Still a shyt test.

So for the other posters who are encouraging you to look closely at what you need to R, I agree. 

What do you need to see to consider R?

You need to know this, because if you expect her to do something that you can't even communicate, you are doing a disservice to both of you.

Know what you need to reconcile. Communicate it. Then watch what she does.

And if you truly can't see a path, tell her.

Now donning my flame proof suit.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Graywolf2

OP, you seem to be a very caring upstanding family man. It’s your nature to preserve your family. Getting a divorce is going against the grain for you. You would never do it but what she has done is so egregious that you feel forced to do it. Reading between the lines I always had a feeling you would R if you could find an excuse. 

That’s why I’ve been pushing you to divorce first and then R. I’m old enough to be your father so please accept some fatherly advice. If you can’t fight your nature then don’t. R is fine but get a divorce. The process has already started so just finish it. 

The balance in your relationship will be better for both you and your wife. She will respect you because she paid a price and you’re not a doormat. You will not resent her as much because she paid a price. Your triggering will be less than it would be otherwise. Love each other and grow old together if that’s what you want but not as husband and wife.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

farsidejunky said:


> @Hantei:
> 
> There isn't anything she can say. Her credibility is for shyt after the drivel of the fog.
> 
> You have to decide if she is worth investing in again. Her actions will tell you that, not her words.
> 
> Don't lie to yourself and say there is something she can say to help you feel more comfortable with R.
> 
> Eventually, you will have to take a chance in either R or D. Both carry potential risks and rewards.
> There is something to be said for D and dating. I can understand that. But ultimately, unless there is a significant monetary benefit, this path is one large shyt test.
> 
> "Prove to me that you love me by enduring D and then dating."
> 
> Sure, it's symbolic. Still a shyt test.
> 
> So for the other posters who are encouraging you to look closely at what you need to R, I agree.
> 
> What do you need to see to consider R?
> 
> You need to know this, because if you expect her to do something that you can't even communicate, you are doing a disservice to both of you.
> 
> Know what you need to reconcile. Communicate it. Then watch what she does.
> 
> And if you truly can't see a path, tell her.
> 
> Now donning my flame proof suit.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Hantei, r is a difficult path and you are going to be opening up wounds and hurts. I have been there. At times I have felt like I am standing naked on Main Street. Meaning you have opened yourself up for a big letdown if things go south. 

Only you know if you can or not. Do not rush. Take your time. You may find out she f'd big time like my wife. When you sit down with her again two question I asked my FWW 1: why should I even consider taking you back. 2: why do you want r? Am I plan b? Watch her facial expressions closely


----------



## Marc878

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Hantei, r is a difficult path and you are going to be opening up wounds and hurts. I have been there. At times I have felt like I am standing naked on Main Street. Meaning you have opened yourself up for a big letdown if things go south.
> 
> Only you know if you can or not. Do not rush. Take your time. You may find out she f'd big time like my wife. When you sit down with her again two question I asked my FWW 1: why should I even consider taking you back. 2: why do you want r? Am I plan b? Watch her facial expressions closely


Nicely put taken from a guy that's just been there.


----------



## Chaparral

Hantei said:


> I'd consider doing something like that if internally I can find myself accepting a possibility for any outcome rather than non-hostile co-parenting. If I do I'll leave a breadcrumb like you suggested. I agree she wouldn't know on my own unless she starts posting here.l (hope not).
> 
> I am confused by the speed of a turnaround as well. I have no explanation apart from what I've posted. It is what it is.


If I remember correctly, you saw zero signs of an affair. No loss of affection, no decline in sex, no change in attitude. That tells me she was not in love with the other man. It tells me she had no intention of leaving at all. As for her reactions after getting caught, she knows you, she saw in your eyes she had totally destroyed your lives. She went into shock and self preservation.

Only about twenty percent of affairs are caught according to "experts". For whatever reason, and that's the crux of this affair is why she felt the need to risk everything. Of course they always say they didn't see it as a risk because they did not believe they could get caught. I think that is why her excuses were so pathetic and actually laughable.


----------



## Hantei

You are almost completely correct. I don't want to try to repeat your post in my own words, you are just spot on.

So to clear the air and to stop wasting everyone's time here, I'd like to state again:
- I realize that D and moving on option is likely to be the best for me
- I'm in a waiting mode before making the decision
- D will happen not matter what even if we R after that


STBXW is aware about 1 and 3 above

Thank you.





Graywolf2 said:


> OP, you seem to be a very caring upstanding family man. It’s your nature to preserve your family. Getting a divorce is going against the grain for you. You would never do it but what she has done is so egregious that you feel forced to do it. Reading between the lines I always had a feeling you would R if you could find an excuse.
> 
> That’s why I’ve been pushing you to divorce first and then R. I’m old enough to be your father so please accept some fatherly advice. If you can’t fight your nature then don’t. R is fine but get a divorce. The process has already started so just finish it.
> 
> The balance in your relationship will be better for both you and your wife. She will respect you because she paid a price and you’re not a doormat. You will not resent her as much because she paid a price. Your triggering will be less than it would be otherwise. Love each other and grow old together if that’s what you want but not as husband and wife.


----------



## whitewolf

Hantei........... I have read your thread and all the advice you have been given. I have loved the same woman and been married to her for a very, very long time and have seen a lot of marriage break-ups. I was career military and was in a unit where a divorce was nothing unusual due to the many and long deployments. I have heard all the reasons for divorcing, from both sides. So, here is my 2 cents worth. First...Do you love her? (Love is not being able to live with her, love is not being able to live without her.) If you don't love her then end of story...divorce...move on. Living in a loveless marriage will just suck the life out of you. If you do love her then find a way to work it out. I have never understood divorce and then R. Don't make sense to me but if that is your path, everyone has their own free will. Second....Some people are really sorry for and do learn from their mistakes and never repeat those mistakes. John Wayne said, "Everyone deserves a second chance, but keep an eye on them." Have you ever considered that by not giving someone, who earns and deserves it, a second chance you are burning the bridge you would need if you ever needed a second chance because of something bad you did. Just make it plain that there is no such thing as a third chance. You don't have to come up with that second chance now. Like "Lonely husband" said. Let her "stew" for a while in the mess she made. I know that the PA aspect of the A is weighing on your mind and it will probably always be just on the edge of your thoughts. But, it is always going to be on the edge of her mind also. A PA really hurts but with time and work you can reclaim what is yours. If you give her this second chance, she is always going to remember that she came within a razor's edge of losing all the good things in her life. From what you have written, I really do think she chose you. Right now she would be willing to trade years of her life to have back what she had. You said you probably couldn't treat her the same as you did before the A. The marriage you had before is dead. The second chance is the building of a new marriage. True R is not a time to make the WW suffer for her A. It is a time to rebuild trust and what you had before the A. Start off like you did 20 years ago. I know this can be done. I have been on deployments where I was gone so long that coming home was like starting over again. The dog didn't even know me some of the time. It all comes down to love and building trust and a bond. Take your time and do what you feel. Anyone can get a divorce but it takes a man and a woman who are dedicated to each other and love each other to make a life together work. If you love her and you believe she loves you; if you truly believe she is sorry/remorseful for her decisions, then hold on to her. Third....Cut the MIL out of your life, completely OUT. And that, sir is my 2 cents worth. I wish you well.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> You are almost completely correct. I don't want to try to repeat your post in my own words, you are just spot on.
> 
> So to clear the air and to stop wasting everyone's time here, I'd like to state again:
> - I realize that D and moving on option is likely to be the best for me
> - I'm in a waiting mode before making the decision
> - D will happen not matter what even if we R after that
> 
> 
> STBXW is aware about 1 and 3 above
> 
> Thank you.


By going through with the divorce, make it clear to your WW that she is now Plan C. 

Your Plan A is to spend the rest of your life looking out for you first, and then your kids who are Plan B. WW would now come in a distant third as Plan C. 

She has given up her first place spot in your life. No more. If she can accept this new reality, and put in the hard work to change herself and spend the rest of her life as your devoted girlfriend, then she may have a shot at rebuilding a new relationship with you. 

But I don't think she has it in her. She's not proactive at all. She's continuing to sit around waiting for you to tell her what to do.


----------



## Hantei

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> When you sit down with her again two question I asked my FWW 1: why should I even consider taking you back. 2: why do you want r? Am I plan b? Watch her facial expressions closely


Will probably even likely do next time she brings it up (she just left)



Chaparral said:


> If I remember correctly, you saw zero signs of an affair. No loss of affection, no decline in sex, no change in attitude. That tells me she was not in love with the other man. It tells me she had no intention of leaving at all. As for her reactions after getting caught, she knows you, she saw in your eyes she had totally destroyed your lives. She went into shock and self preservation.
> 
> Only about twenty percent of affairs are caught according to "experts". For whatever reason, and that's the crux of this affair is why she felt the need to risk everything. Of course they always say they didn't see it as a risk because they did not believe they could get caught. I think that is why her excuses were so pathetic and actually laughable.


That is higly accurate. She tells me she was not in love with him, she didn't mean this to get that far. That she was thinking how to end it so he won't expose her. When I caught her she instinctively reacted like she did (moving on) without thinking. Then she realised she f==%Ed up second time. I asked today if she wasn't caught and went no contact with him, would she eventually tell me? The answer was that she'd really like to answer "yes" but doesn’t want to lie anymore so it's"don't know".


----------



## bandit.45

Her story keeps changing to manipulate the circumstances. 

That is what bothers me. First time you confronted her she claimed he was the superior man to you...he was the moon and stars. 

Now? "Oh, I never really loved him. I just said that because I knew it was a deal-breaker and you would divorce me anyways."

Bullsh!t. She was at the very least infatuated with him. 

Don't let her feed you that line of dreck.


----------



## Hantei

Thinking about your and @graywolf s and other posts I realised (for myself) the following:

It is hard for me to loose her and there is a risk in going on with D, devoting her to a GF status, making her plan C and all. The risk is that she'll eventually get fed up with all this hardship will say to herself "screw it I'm already dovorced" and move on.

I have to take that risk because what I do know for sure that if I don't do that and just welcome her back with no consequences (unless you guys can come up with anything else) - initially she'll be happy and loving...untill she stop respecting me as I'll stop respecting myself. I know that - when she's negative about a man she call him "spineless". I will be spineless and it will be a matter of time for me to hear "sorry not in love with you".

So I'll go I need with the plan, just need to prevent myself from getting in the abuse territory. 

Of course it won't matter if I can't do R.





bandit.45 said:


> By going through with the divorce, make it clear to your WW that she is now Plan C.
> 
> Your Plan A is to spend the rest of your life looking out for you first, and then your kids who are Plan B. WW would now come in a distant third as Plan C.
> 
> She has given up her first place spot in your life. No more. If she can accept this new reality, and put in the hard work to change herself and spend the rest of her life as your devoted girlfriend, then she may have a shot at rebuilding a new relationship with you.
> 
> But I don't think she has it in her. She's not proactive at all. She's continuing to sit around waiting for you to tell her what to do.


----------



## Mike11

That is a good sign of Honesty from her without an attempt to spare your feelings, a WW that does not have respect for you would lie (by omission) for the fear of retaliation, the she knows the truth will hurt you and willing to take the risk, that is a good sign H



Hantei said:


> Will probably even likely do next time she brings it up (she just left)
> 
> 
> 
> That is higly accurate. She tells me she was not in love with him, she didn't mean this to get that far. That she was thinking how to end it so he won't expose her. When I caught her she instinctively reacted like she did (moving on) without thinking. Then she realised she f==%Ed up second time. I asked today if she wasn't caught and went no contact with him, would she eventually tell me? The answer was that she'd really like to answer "yes" but doesn’t want to lie anymore so it's"don't know".


----------



## JohnA

Reconlliation is never fair to the BS. Nor is reconciliation really truly a gift to the WS, in a sense the WS got luckily and received a second chance. 

There is only one reason to reconcile. You do it for your self not to gain back what was lost, it will aiways ge lost, but the belief something better can be built with this person. You need to spend time considering what you want going forward. Consider you are about to become empty nesters. What type of life do you want to live? Is you WS a good fit for the phase of your life? 

A good MC sould be able to review your marriage and help you find where you want to be. The MC should also help you see your issues with your WS and marriage pre-adultery. Just as your WS had them, so did you. You mostly likely did not realize it because other very dominate needs where meet so you accept them. But now you are about to become empty nesters, many of the past dominate issues will fade and new ones will emerge. 

Will your wife accept an offer for the both of you not to date others until the divorce is final. The two of you remain seperated. That you, she and your son spend one week-end a month together (with her leaving at night) and three evening a week together. During this time you see a MC/therapist individually for two months to find what each of you want and need. Then jointly for several months. During this period you each live apart and keep your finances separate. 

Offering a time frame and a course of action will eliminate her giving up and her considering you spineless. If you read @Lonely husband 42301 you will notice he receiving both individual counselling and MC. His reasons for IC will ge different than your's but you need some help as well. Right now he just post how things are improving, but there is a lot of hard grinding work going on. His MC seems to be very good. You might want to PM LH to find out the MC background and what his MC is doing right and then findba similar person for yourself. 

I do not recall @Affaircare posting on your thread, I suggest you spend time reading her posts on other threads, 

Be well


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> Will probably even likely do next time she brings it up (she just left)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is higly accurate. She tells me she was not in love with him, she didn't mean this to get that far. That she was thinking how to end it so he won't expose her. When I caught her she instinctively reacted like she did (moving on) without thinking. Then she realised she f==%Ed up second time. I asked today if she wasn't caught and went no contact with him, would she eventually tell me? The answer was that she'd really like to answer "yes" but doesn’t want to lie anymore so it's"don't know".




This is all standard cheater script.

To me the most worrisome thing is not that she says she just instinctively moved on - either out of pride, self-preservation or ignorance. It's that she kind of threw you under the bus on the way out. If this was really about her rather than her feelings (or lack thereof) of feelings towards you I would have hoped for more empathy at that stage. 

I'm not saying it is not recoverable, I'm just ranking stuff


----------



## bandit.45

So far all we have seen from Hantei's wife is her telling him she's sorry and that she will do everything HE wants her to do to save the marriage. 

That is not proactive and in my opinion it is not particularly remorseful or empathetic. Hantei what your WW should be saying is something to the effect of "I don't care what happens to me or even if you take me back, all I care about is helping you deal with the pain I caused you in any way I can. I am responsible for wrecking our marriage and I want to do what I can to heal your pain...even if that means accepting that you may never want to see or talk to me again. But even if that happens, I'm going to get help and work on myself so that I never hurt anyone else with my selfish actions ever again."

If she were to voluntarily come to you and say something to this affect, then you would know there was some real contriteness there, and that would be something to slowly build on. 

If she has not said anything like this, then don't count on her being ready to R in any meaningful way. She still wants you to solve this problem for the both of you.


----------



## alte Dame

I'm glad you're doing the 180. You seem to be as healthy as you can be given the circumstances.

One glass-half-empty mindset that has helped me over the years is to recognize when I am in hell and then admit that it will be hell for a while and that I just have to keep going.

We all understand to some degree what your hell is like and think you are doing well. Your WW's hell is her own to navigate. In my opinion, her challenge is to finally grow up. She needs to find her big girl panties and stop blaming you, your MIL, the OM, and whatever nameless army has been justifying her deluded self-destruction.

Her mother isn't to blame. She plays a rancid part, but a grown married woman doesn't date another man that her mother sets her up with. A mature woman sees what is wrong with that and acts accordingly.

Serious IC for your WW, H. See if she finally starts to take responsibility for her own life.


----------



## farsidejunky

MSprings said:


> Can I offer a different perspective?
> 
> First, being married doesn't stop all the biological forces that lead us to find someone attractive. If we're not careful, it is possible to fall in love with a second person, even if you do not rationally know you shouldn't. It is possible to love two men at the same time. My situation's very different, but I'm still in love with my first husband even as I consider remarriage.
> 
> Second, a woman who doesn't love her husband finds justification for her infidelity and excuses her reasons for leaving. She's a flawed person who made a terrible mistake and who lacked the strength of character to end the affair, but that doesn't mean she doesn't love you. The fact that she's seems to want to work it out suggests she still loves you.
> 
> Third, there are many suggestions about earning her respect and making sure she doesn't think you're spineless. I suggest forgiveness, real forgiveness means you let it go without condition. I'm not saying it's easy and I'm not sure I could do it, but if you decide to forgive her, you let it go for good. Don't bring it up again in unrelated arguments or use it as a bargaining chip.
> 
> She can't earn your forgiveness. If you insist on it or she tries, the attempt will probably end up pro-longing the hurt.


You can certainly forgive her without conditions. 

But I would argue there is no true reconciliation without conditions. 

He can forgive her and still divorce her.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## JohnA

What would impress a part me if I was Hantei is if she was doing research and readings on how to help your betrayed spouse heal. I believe she is seeing a therapist at this point. I would wonder if they have discussed triggers or mind movies at all? I would want her to show some initiative to clean up her own mess. 


A poster, JLD, would post a betrayed husband needed to provide a self environment for his WW to reconcile. She was 30% right. The other 70% was the WW creating a safe environment for the BS to reconcile. 

If you do decide to attempt to reconcile the conditions she sets herself are the ones she most likely keep, which brings us back to how much thought and effort has she put into it.


----------



## blahfridge

OP, if you still love her or even just care about her, then just wait a little while and see where things are at. So many here are telling you to divorce now, and that does seem to be what you want as well. That's fine, but keep in mind that your wife just suffered a mental breakdown that was severe enough to land her in the hospital. For those who are suggesting that she cannot be completely remorseful without saying x, y, and z, I would say you need to give HER some time as well to recover both physically and mentally. Basically, give the lady a tiny bit of slack. If you've ever suffered anxiety and depression to that level, then you know that a person in that state is not able to think in a completely clear and coherent manner in the immediate aftermath. 

It sounds to me that she is beginning to process what she did and piece together how it happened, but she still doesn't have a clear picture of how she allowed herself to do what she did. The things she has told you seem to suggest that she is trying to clear the fog in her mind and be honest with you and with herself. It will take a great deal of work with a good therapist and probably some medication, if she isn't on some already, to get to the point where she can then move forward assured that she will never allow herself to be so weak again. I suspect her relationship with her mother has seriously damaged her as well. I am not suggesting that you turn back from the divorce, only that you have a little compassion for her simply as a human being who is also the mother of your child. She does not sound like a well woman right now.


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> What doesn't kill you makes you stronger?


Careful with that one.

Because sometimes what kills you leaves you wounded for life.

You're going through a traumatic experience. Very well. But you may be surprised one day to find out that it's impacted you far more deeply than you realize.


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> I am confused by the speed of a turnaround as well. I have no explanation apart from what I've posted. It is what it is.


There are two options.

Option 1 is that the fog broke so utterly quickly that she had a sudden epiphany regarding her actions.

Option 2 is that it's a reconciliation driven out of convenience and fear now that she has nowhere left to go to.

Sudde epiphanies are really hard to come by. Harder still to actually live.

My money is on option 2. You're a logical thinker, H. Heard of Thomas Bayes?


----------



## Divinely Favored

Marc878 said:


> Hantei said:
> 
> 
> 
> Due to our history I'm taking the physical aspect harder than many.
> 
> I'm STD tested.
> 
> 
> 
> Was she? it didn't seem clear. Again a consequence that for you if there's any future a must do.
Click to expand...

Remember some diseases like HIV and hepatitis may not show up for 6 months. Dude she has defiled herself with mommy's help and support. You can do MUCH better than her. Get a loyal woman with moral terpitude.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> @Hantei:
> 
> There isn't anything she can say. Her credibility is for shyt after the drivel of the fog.
> 
> You have to decide if she is worth investing in again. Her actions will tell you that, not her words.
> 
> Don't lie to yourself and say there is something she can say to help you feel more comfortable with R.
> 
> Eventually, you will have to take a chance in either R or D. Both carry potential risks and rewards.
> There is something to be said for D and dating. I can understand that. But ultimately, unless there is a significant monetary benefit, this path is one large shyt test.
> 
> "Prove to me that you love me by enduring D and then dating."
> 
> Sure, it's symbolic. Still a shyt test.
> 
> So for the other posters who are encouraging you to look closely at what you need to R, I agree.
> 
> What do you need to see to consider R?
> 
> You need to know this, because if you expect her to do something that you can't even communicate, you are doing a disservice to both of you.
> 
> Know what you need to reconcile. Communicate it. Then watch what she does.
> 
> And if you truly can't see a path, tell her.
> 
> Now donning my flame proof suit.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


The only thing I'd add to that is don't commit to R if she does it. Commit to giving it a chance only.

Because she might do all the right things and you might wake up six months from now after everything's good on paper...

And just look at her and not be able to do it any more.


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> Will probably even likely do next time she brings it up (she just left)
> 
> 
> 
> That is higly accurate. She tells me she was not in love with him, she didn't mean this to get that far. That she was thinking how to end it so he won't expose her. When I caught her she instinctively reacted like she did (moving on) without thinking. Then she realised she f==%Ed up second time. I asked today if she wasn't caught and went no contact with him, would she eventually tell me? The answer was that she'd really like to answer "yes" but doesn’t want to lie anymore so it's"don't know".


My response would have been "how far exactly did you intend on taking it with him? At what point did it become wrong to you?"

And her statement is not very introspective and jumps to her letting herself off the hook. Did they only have sex once? Did they make out before then? Did they text before that?

And on and on and on. Because I guarantee this was no "oops, his penis is inside me and I didn't mean for that to happen."

This was _intentional,_ bud. With egging on from the MIL sure, but intentional. She knew that having sex with him was a possible outcome when she agreed to meet him the first time.

Women just aren't that stupid about guys intentions.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Chaparral said:


> Hantei said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd consider doing something like that if internally I can find myself accepting a possibility for any outcome rather than non-hostile co-parenting. If I do I'll leave a breadcrumb like you suggested. I agree she wouldn't know on my own unless she starts posting here.l (hope not).
> 
> I am confused by the speed of a turnaround as well. I have no explanation apart from what I've posted. It is what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly, you saw zero signs of an affair. No loss of affection, no decline in sex, no change in attitude. That tells me she was not in love with the other man. It tells me she had no intention of leaving at all. As for her reactions after getting caught, she knows you, she saw in your eyes she had totally destroyed your lives. She went into shock and self preservation.
> 
> Only about twenty percent of affairs are caught according to "experts". For whatever reason, and that's the crux of this affair is why she felt the need to risk everything. Of course they always say they didn't see it as a risk because they did not believe they could get caught. I think that is why her excuses were so pathetic and actually laughable.
Click to expand...

She just wanted her fun time with F***buddy.


----------



## bandit.45

Divinely Favored said:


> She just wanted her fun time with F***buddy.


And I think you nailed it. That is what makes this situation so tragic. The bored, forty-something housewife reunites with an old suitor, gets an itch, wonders what it would be like to go back in time and give the guy the chance he never got, sees a respite from being wife and mom, and decides to have a hot little naughty affair without Hantei ever knowing about it. She threw away a two-decade-long marriage for a few fleeting orgasms. Stupid. 

I really think this is how it started. What she needs to figure out is if she was actually infatuated/in love with the guy or if she said all those things to Hantei to lend some plausible explanation to what was essentially a pointless and idiotic decision.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei's WW never developed any ability to live on her own. No emotional independence at all. She went straight from being taken care of by rich mommy to being taken care of by Hantei. 

Character is born from hardship, life-lessons and sacrifice, three things that Mrs. Hantei never experienced. It is no surprise that when she was put to the test she failed.


----------



## MovingFrwrd

This is a tough thread for me to read. I have a few similarities to you, @Hantei, mostly in the responses your wife has given once her fog lifted. I was lucky in one respect, my wife did not appear to be in the fog after the affair was outed. She never reached out to him again, and told me about anytime he attempted to. I got nearly the same responses you did (after your wife came out of the fog) - she never intended to leave me, not ever, but says she was never in love with the other guy. She started by saying she would do anything for me, but then refused to go to IC. It took drawing up dissolution papers to finally get through to her on the IC.

Sadly, you don't really know what to do when you're going through it the first time, and you will never ever want to go through it again. 

If you end up doing R - with or without the D, at some point you are going to need to get off of the fence yourself. It's not just her that will need to show all of her cards and make a commitment. The idea of attempting R with the possibility of staying together is a lever to try and keep her on the straight and narrow. The difficult thing with that is you cannot keep using that lever as a means of controlling her. After a period of time either she'll get tired of being manipulated with it, or you'll get tired of feeling like you need to use it.

It's an attractive notion of control to say that you'll think about R if she's jumping through the hoops you want. But what if she does all the hoop jumping and her actions tell you that she is recommitting herself to you? That's when you need to make the tough choice of stay or go. And if you stay - you have to commit. If you decide to go, you have to be clear and firm and make the cleanest break possible.


----------



## Affaircare

Hey @Hantei, 

I think what I said before still stands, so I'm going to quote it here:



Affaircare said:


> Speaking as a former disloyal wife here, here are my quick thoughts:
> 
> I think it is reasonable for you to choose to reconcile if that is the choice you make of your own free will. But before you make that decision, I do think it would also be 100% reasonable to say that the cost of her adultery (call it that, because that is what it was) is that she will need to move out and for the next nine months she's on her own.
> 
> For the next nine months, you two are separated and you are WILLING to give her the chance to prove to you WITH HER ACTIONS that she means it and understands what she has done. During those nine months, she is in her own place and has her child half the time and she gets no child support or alimony or anything like that. she has to work to support herself AND figure out how to care for the child by herself AND do the hard work on herself to figure out why she did what she did AND figure out how to rebuild the marriage she destroyed.
> 
> In return, you agree to file separation to protect yourself legally and financially from any shenanigans she may pull, you agree to keep and open mind and give her a chance to prove herself, and you agree to put off your decision for 9 months. If she does not do the work, you two are already separated and you just make it legal by filing. If she DOES do the work, then you're free to choose to continue building a whole new marriage!
> 
> My guess, from what I can hear in your words, is that she wants it to return to "the way it was before." Well let me tell you: the way it was before lead to adultery, and thus, that "way" is no more. Before she can meltdown and make promises and whatnot, she has to fully accept that the marriage she had before will never, ever exist again...due to her actions! If she agrees to separate, gets herself to counseling, does the personal work to become a better woman and wife, and deals with her issues...those are actions that indicate she's serious and has the potential character to be a good wife. If she blames, avoids, denies and minimizes ... those are actions that indicate she's bluffing you to try to manipulate the situation again and therefore does not have the potential character to be a faithful, committed wife.
> 
> Look, @Hantei, people do make mistakes (not meaning "Oops that was a goof" but rather "That was a major cluster f*ck!"), and people can come back from a mistake...but it's very rare. Most people these days would rather rugsweep and blame others than look at themselves and do the personal work to improve and mature.


The only thing I think I'd add is this: during the 9 month period you do not "help her" find a counselor, "remind her" to go to appointments, or "aid her" in doing her own personal work (unless she has an assignment that involves you such as "this week I want you to talk to Hantei about making amends...." in which case you don't do the work, you just listen and interact). This has GOT to be on her, of her own free will. 

Second, during the 9 month period agree to not see others. Then watch her. Does she get bored and go looking for the thrill when she's alone? If not, she is demonstrating that she can discipline herself and commit when she's determined. If so, then she'll likely do that again and again.


----------



## eric1

blahfridge said:


> OP, if you still love her or even just care about her, then just wait a little while and see where things are at. So many here are telling you to divorce now, and that does seem to be what you want as well. That's fine, but keep in mind that your wife just suffered a mental breakdown that was severe enough to land her in the hospital. For those who are suggesting that she cannot be completely remorseful without saying x, y, and z, I would say you need to give HER some time as well to recover both physically and mentally. Basically, give the lady a tiny bit of slack. If you've ever suffered anxiety and depression to that level, then you know that a person in that state is not able to think in a completely clear and coherent manner in the immediate aftermath.
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds to me that she is beginning to process what she did and piece together how it happened, but she still doesn't have a clear picture of how she allowed herself to do what she did. The things she has told you seem to suggest that she is trying to clear the fog in her mind and be honest with you and with herself. It will take a great deal of work with a good therapist and probably some medication, if she isn't on some already, to get to the point where she can then move forward assured that she will never allow herself to be so weak again. I suspect her relationship with her mother has seriously damaged her as well. I am not suggesting that you turn back from the divorce, only that you have a little compassion for her simply as a human being who is also the mother of your child. She does not sound like a well woman right now.




He has another nine months


----------



## JohnA

Hi @MovingFrwrd, you and @EI are two sides of the same coin. 

Your wife engaged in adultery, sexting with OM2 and was approached by a third guy asking her to get into swinging without you. I personally thought that although your wife seemed to want to reconcile you would drive her away. At what point did your shift gears and begin to change your approach? I spoke of living aware, not in fear to you. How are you alert and what are you on aiert for? 

EI seemed to turn on a dime and recommintted to her husband. I have read her and her husband post http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html. I am not sure what caused her to change but she did. Unlike your spouse it does not seen she thinks ill towards the OM.
In any event strive to be civial and your options open. Use the grace period of one year wisely. 

My brother advised me once about going to an job interview after in my home state after I had just moved several states away and would require me to move back to my home state: before you turn a job down - get te job. Second best advise I've ever heard. Best was from my other brother: get a clue, get a grip, get a life.


----------



## ButtPunch

Tron said:


> I guess I am one of the ones willing to step in and suggest that this WW may be getting close.
> 
> I have a problem with the idea that waywards and this WW in particular should intuitively know what needs to be done to make R possible.
> 
> How would she know this?
> 
> Counseling? She's never had it before
> 
> Mommy issues? She's got them
> 
> What about her husband? I think she believes that this was a deal-breaker from the very beginning. And Hantei hasn't given her any indications so far that this is even a remote possibility. He has been stone cold and all business with divorce. What is one to do when facing no hope?
> 
> Why is leaving Chap's list on the kitchen counter or sending her a link to "How to Heal Your Spouse" something that shouldn't be considered? If she takes the initiative, takes the steps, pulls up her bootstraps, gets her $hit together, gets counseling, works the program, and in the process fixes herself and works to heal H, why is this not something that we shouldn't support.
> 
> I'm also a little confused about the timeline and order of events. I went back and read the first dozen or so posts by Hantei and the PA, the discovery, the exposure, the end of the A and her moving out happened very quickly, did it not? A couple weeks, right? That doesn't seem to me to be a very long period of time for her to formulate or dream up some long future with the AP.
> 
> Hantei's WW wasn't one of the more brutal and emasculating waywards we've seen. What she spouted off seemed to be more of the same typical fog bull$hit we hear from waywards who just got caught up in the excitement of something new and later regretted.
> 
> Hantei, do you want to give her an opening? An opportunity to try to salvage something here, to help heal you, or not?


I agree. I think you have a chance here at R here if you want it. I read this entire thread and my gut says that is what you want although you want come out and say it. 

My question to you? Do you want to reconcile?

You have got nine months to sit back and not do anything. Watch her actions. Do not commit to anything. Relax the 180 a little. 

However, do you think you can be happy keeping a wife you know cheated on you? 

I went thru a similar experience as you. I reconciled. That was over three years ago. However, my baseline mood is happy. I am not the type to get down or resentful. I just live my life and let whatever happens happen. 

Are you capable? I would say most men are not and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either. Decide what you want and what you need to do to accomplish that. Watch her actions during this trial period and best of luck to you either outcome.


----------



## bandit.45

But you should not just be "sitting around and waiting" during that nine months Hantei. I recommend you get into counseling for grief and possibly PTSD. I know you Aussie blokes don't go in much for that pansy counseling stuff, but you should give it a try. It will do you good to have someone to confide in and a shoulder to shed a few tears on. 

You should also be putting your energy into your son, being the best damn dad you can be for him. Working on that boat...working on yourself...rediscovering old hobbies...getting back in touch with your inner caveman...

So that, if any time in that nine months your WW decides she cannot hack it and leaves, you won't be left destitute or feeling like a fool because you waited around for her.


----------



## Affaircare

bandit.45 said:


> But you should not just be "sitting around and waiting" during that nine months Hantei. I recommend you get into counseling for grief and possibly PTSD. I know you Aussie blokes don't go in much for that pansy counseling stuff, but you should give it a try. It will do you good to have someone to confide in and a shoulder to shed a few tears on.
> 
> You should also be putting your energy into your son, being the best damn dad you can be for him. Working on that boat...working on yourself...rediscovering old hobbies...getting back in touch with your inner caveman...
> 
> So that, if any time in that nine months your WW decides she cannot hack it and leaves, you won't be left destitute or feeling like a fool because you waited around for her.


QFT! (Quoted for Truth!)


----------



## Be smart

My friend your wife is just siting at her mothers house and waiting for you to do all hard working. 

I know you are in pain and dilema but it would be nice if your wife show you for example appointment with a therapist or maybe a paper from Hospital that she is clean from any STDs. 
Would be nice if she write about her Affair,how it started and how she ended in OMs bed. Maybe she can explain why she never ended her Affair or better yet explain herself why she told you in the face that OM is better man then you are. 

Read your last posts my friend and you will see that your wife told you she wanted to have this "fling" and never come clean about it. She knew about consequences,pain and hurt but she decided to go for it,not thinking about you or your son.

Do you remember when she blamed you for her Affair? I belive you wrote about it on page number 5. 

Your wife is so passive and all she does is sits there and cry. This is not a behaviour of a wife/husband who wants to stay married.

Stay strong.


----------



## bandit.45

Be smart said:


> My friend your wife is just siting at her mothers house and waiting for you to do all hard working.
> 
> I know you are in pain and dilema but it would be nice if your wife show you for example appointment with a therapist or maybe a paper from Hospital that she is clean from any STDs.
> Would be nice if she write about her Affair,how it started and how she ended in OMs bed. Maybe she can explain why she never ended her Affair or better yet explain herself why she told you in the face that OM is better man then you are.
> 
> Read your last posts my friend and you will see that your wife told you she wanted to have this "fling" and never come clean about it. She knew about consequences,pain and hurt but she decided to go for it,not thinking about you or your son.
> 
> Do you remember when she blamed you for her Affair? I belive you wrote about it on page number 5.
> 
> Your wife is so passive and all she does is sits there and cry. This is not a behaviour of a wife/husband who wants to stay married.
> 
> Stay strong.


This is hard to deny.


----------



## Marduk

Be smart said:


> My friend your wife is just siting at her mothers house and waiting for you to do all hard working.
> 
> I know you are in pain and dilema but it would be nice if your wife show you for example appointment with a therapist or maybe a paper from Hospital that she is clean from any STDs.
> Would be nice if she write about her Affair,how it started and how she ended in OMs bed. Maybe she can explain why she never ended her Affair or better yet explain herself why she told you in the face that OM is better man then you are.
> 
> Read your last posts my friend and you will see that your wife told you she wanted to have this "fling" and never come clean about it. She knew about consequences,pain and hurt but she decided to go for it,not thinking about you or your son.
> 
> Do you remember when she blamed you for her Affair? I belive you wrote about it on page number 5.
> 
> Your wife is so passive and all she does is sits there and cry. This is not a behaviour of a wife/husband who wants to stay married.
> 
> Stay strong.


I think you've put your finger on what's been bugging me about his wife's sudden epiphany.

She's throwing herself a pity party and hoping he comes to her rescue. Not the other way around.

"Please save me from my own mistakes! I'll do anything, as long as you tell me what that is, detail out step by step instructions, and not make me work to hard at it!"

Translation: life is now hard, please make it easier.


----------



## drifter777

Yes, a marriage can be salvaged after infidelity. It's just a matter of how much sh*t the BH is willing to swallow. In your case it seems your appetite is pretty hardy so you certainly have a chance. The problem is this: if you do eat all that sh*t and try to reconcile that taste in your mouth is going to get worse and worse until you can't stop vomiting. But maybe you can just tough it out.

Right now your intense fear of losing her is controlling your thinking. It's false fear but your brain can't tell the difference so all the input into your mind is being bent to fit the outcome you desire - which is a happy life with your WW. When a man is in your situation I think they should try to reconcile because the time will help ease your fears enough for your thinking to return to normal. Over time you will begin to see your wife for who she is and your marriage for what it is. Marriage counseling will help speed up the process. At some point you will ask yourself "Will I ever truly be at peace with the fact that she screwed another man because she was bored with me? Is this the woman I want to spend the rest of my life with?" When the full weight of her betrayal falls on you while you are not in this panicked state of mind you will be in a better position to make a sensible decision.

Back in the beginning if you came to me and told me the story you initially posted I would have told you to end the marriage immediately and start a new life. That initial post told me everything I needed to know to come to that conclusion and nothing since has done anything to change my opinion. Like I said, maybe you can salvage things if you are willing to just rugsweep your feelings and swallow the sh*t sandwich, but the thought of this makes me sad and I hope you have more courage than this.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Hantei said:


> TDSC60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it the time of the month that verifies no pregnancy or was she tested?
> 
> Technically possible means an STD check for her and you. OM may have been "enlightening" many woman.
> 
> 
> 
> She was in the hospital as she was not able to cope with stress. They did the test (standard routine). When I asked directly she said she's not pregnant and is willing to show me the discharge papers. But judging the absolute horror look in her eyes I did ask her (shouldn't in hindsight? ) if this was a real possibility. She admitted it was
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bandit.45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has she offered sex?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Obviously she did otherwise I wouldn't be here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously - shall I say she made it 100% clear she wants it but given my state (can't stand any physical contact atm) she knows it's not the right time- not sure it will ever be.
> 
> Due to our history I'm taking the physical aspect harder than many.
> 
> I'm STD tested.
Click to expand...

She has defiled herself and will never be the special untouched woman you fell in love with. 
Man this sux donkey dixs. I could not go there ever again with what physical intimacy means to me. I will not even use the term "sex" when talking to my wife about being physical.

To me the closest I have ever felt for my wife was while she was carrying my children. The way I view being physical, says if a woman has sex, especially bareback, that they are open to carrying that man's child. Hence.....she wanted that connection and love with him to allow him to inseminate her. Knowing she could become pregnant with his child means she is willing to go through pregnancy and child birth for him is a done deal for me.

Abortion would do no good, as a woman who will kill her child to try to hide her transgressions or keep from dealing with the consequences is one I would have no relationship with either.

Have you asked her if she has been with you after playing with Dr. Strangelove? Same day? Next AM?


----------



## Marduk

Since you didn't answer about Bayes, I'll give you a good way to think about decisions. 

Assign the probability for yourself that she's actually wanting to reconcile, capable of doing so, and will never cheat again. It doesn't really matter where you start. Say, 50/50. 

With every new piece of information, adjust that up or down. 

MIL is brutal. Call it 45/55. 

She only wanted to reconcile after being dumped. 40/60. 

She went into this with the intention of cheating. 35/65. 

And so on. 

The point is to move the probablity based on new info. And try to be objective. There's a lot more to it than that, but that's enough.


----------



## GusPolinski

marduk said:


> Since you didn't answer about Bayes, I'll give you a good way to think about decisions.
> 
> Assign the probability for yourself that she's actually wanting to reconcile, capable of doing so, and will never cheat again. It doesn't really matter where you start. Say, 50/50.
> 
> *With every new piece of information, adjust that up or down.*
> 
> MIL is brutal. Call it 45/55.
> 
> She only wanted to reconcile after being dumped. 40/60.
> 
> She went into this with the intention of cheating. 35/65.
> 
> And so on.
> 
> The point is to move the probablity based on new info. And try to be objective. There's a lot more to it than that, but that's enough.


Yep.

This is EXACTLY why BS's (at least those willing to consider reconciliation) tend to ask so many questions. We all want to make _informed_ decisions.

First you find out precisely what it is that you'll be asked to forgive should you choose to reconcile. For example, were there any absolute dealbreakers?

One you settle the big stuff, you start handling the smaller stuff, because yes -- the small stuff is important.

You can dodge a large boulder, but it's much more difficult to dodge a handful of small pebbles, much less an avalanche of them.

Either way, take enough hits and you're not willing to walk the trail any more.

Because at some point it's just not worth it.


----------



## JohnA

I read this on another thread. It was in response to an article titled 12 things worse than cheating. I thought it should have been 12 thimgs that lay the ground work fir cheating. They where: 


12 toxic elements*


Lying to or hiding things from your partner
Withholding any kind of affection
Harboring quiet resentment
Lack of communication
Being stubborn about things or getting entrenched in certain positions
Bickering about mundane daily issues and chores
Condescension
Staying in a relationship out of convenience
Manipulation
Jealousy
Presenting a false version of yourself at the beginning.*
Staying together because you've become codependent


Change the "beginning" to "in the aftermath of adultery" in the line "false version of your yourself in the beginning" might provide framework as to what was right and wrong in your former marriage, and what eeds to be addressed going forward.


----------



## MovingFrwrd

JohnA said:


> Hi @MovingFrwrd, you and @EI are two sides of the same coin.
> 
> Your wife engaged in adultery, sexting with OM2 and was approached by a third guy asking her to get into swinging without you. I personally thought that although your wife seemed to want to reconcile you would drive her away. At what point did your shift gears and begin to change your approach? I spoke of living aware, not in fear to you. How are you alert and what are you on aiert for?
> 
> EI seemed to turn on a dime and recommintted to her husband. I have read her and her husband post http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html. I am not sure what caused her to change but she did. Unlike your spouse it does not seen she thinks ill towards the OM.
> In any event strive to be civial and your options open. Use the grace period of one year wisely.
> 
> My brother advised me once about going to an job interview after in my home state after I had just moved several states away and would require me to move back to my home state: before you turn a job down - get te job. Second best advise I've ever heard. Best was from my other brother: get a clue, get a grip, get a life.


I've had to think on this topic, because I realize the truth of the matter will be inflammatory. I'll try to break it down to bullet points vs. rambling a book.

1. COUNSELING, IC and MC.
2. She jumped through the hoops (IC, eventually)
3. I went through multiple processes of envisioning life with and without her.
4. I realized that I was an angry inferno. I separate this from the counseling because I needed to arrive at this myself. I began to work specifically on my anger issues.
5. I recognized her finding remorse and loving me. I recognized that I still loved her, and wanted to stay.

After I got through most of the anger, I was able to look far more objectively at the process my wife and I went through after discovery. We both made mistakes along that path. But by and large her constant theme was she wanted to stay with me. She immediately walked away from him and chose me.

Yes, I'm simplifying considerably here.

I was chastised many times from both counselors at my actions and treatments towards my wife - I was actually stating that I was going to work on R only if she was truly committed. The (simplified) response from the counselor was, 'Why would anyone fully commit to someone who isn't?' Of course I fired back with 'I was committed while she had an affair'... The counselor then dropped the fence busting statement on me 'If you're going to D, then just D. Don't beat around the bush or use it as a threat. That's a nuclear option that will continue to drive her away and live in fear. If you're not going to D, then fully commit.'

Again, I'm simplifying. I can't compress 12+ months of counseling into one post.

I revisited the points I listed above. I looked hard at my life, I realized that we were an overall great couple and solid parents for 12.5 years of our marriage. I saw how she was changing, I saw how much more patient she was with the kids and loving towards me. She wasn't doing it for a week, or a month, but was showing consistent commitment to me.

I realized that I couldn't go back to my life before the A, but that there was a possibility for a new, stronger marriage where we recognize how to communicate better, to support each other and love each other again.

My family helped me greatly during this time as well. My brother and SIL, and my parents proved their mettle, and supported the marriage. They asked what I wanted initially, and when I said we were going to try to R, they came through greater than I could have hoped. All of us have a closer bond now. My wife can't believe how supportive my parents have been of us. There was a time my wife couldn't stand my mother - most of our marriage actually. That has changed.

Now for the inflammatory part. I needed to take breaks from TAM. I had a hard time finding my way while reading some posts stating that my wife was a ***** or she didn't ever love me, or she deliberately threw her marriage away for ******, that she was probably having 3-somes with the OM. etc. There were comments that felt like they were 'shaming' me for even considering staying with my wife, calling me a doormat, a BETA, etc., ridiculing my personal strength. While there was some truth to it, and I fed into those statements for some time, I realized that constantly going back and revisiting those wounds wasn't going to help me get stronger. I've been reliving it myself enough since Dec, 2014.

So I put my big boy pants on, and made the decision to commit to R. I'm grateful I did. I'm supporting and loving my wife again. I have felt better for the last 2 months than I have in a looong time.

I'm not downgrading TAM members - quite a few have been extremely helpful, and continue to help me through their posts to other people. I continue to evaluate and look at my life and actions and thoughts as I read through them. 

Overall, TAM has been a good experience. Plenty of support, but there is a need to sift through to find the things that apply.


----------



## MovingFrwrd

I realize I didn't answer the second half of your question - 'How are you alert and what are you on alert for?'

I am far more cognizant of her actions, and pay far closer attention to her. Part of it is still the detective in me, but most of it now is I want to pay attention to my wife in order to make our marriage better.

I have changed my own way of interacting with people considerably. I was always a happy guy, easily make friends, and loved middle school humor. I would crack jokes, inappropriate jokes, just to get reactions. It got to the point in our group of friends than when someone would say something which could easily be mis-construed in a funny, dirty way, all I had to do was look up at the ceiling and bite my lip and I would get yelled at for having a 'dirty mind.' It was fun, it led to some hilarious discussions.... But, I feel as though my own actions made it a bit to comfortable for others to start thinking inappropriate things.

I'm also alert to how my actions affect my wife. Before I would think nothing of surfing ESPN or GolfWrx for an hour before coming to bed. I put that down and choose spending time with her at the end of the day.

So I've cut down substantially on the middle school humor, cleaning up my act so to speak. We are making friends with some other families at our new church, and it gives me the opportunity to surround myself with other strong, God fearing people. This has been a good influence on me.

So I guess the best way to say what I'm alert for is I'm alert for my wife's state of mind and her feelings, and I'm alert for my own actions.


----------



## ing

One of the things that we don't take into account often enough is the changes that this sort of betrayal has. It changes the way you think and the way that one sees the world. 

The person who had the affair has memories and experiences that we are never part of. They had that thrill and then remember the good times with that person, even if it is tinged with sadness.

Your wife made deliberate and conscious choices to do this. There is no magical fairy dust. 

But wait.. there is more
She tells you how much better he is than you. How he "stands above the crowd"

Given the choice to end it or leave she moves to her Mothers. This was her decision and hers alone 

She dumped the guy or he dumps her. 
Fine, great. She is sorry.

Now she wants to come home..

You know all those tears, nightmares, shaking rage, and sleepless nights. That was your brain re-wiring itself. Processing this is going to take some time and you are not going to be the same person after. 

The reality is that you are both changed in a fundamental way and the two of you may no longer be able to reconcile because of that. Not through lack of effort or will. You will have changed most dramatically and may appear to her as hard and black and white about things . Betrayal does that. Everytime


----------



## ing

more random thoughts..

You are both different and you are both going to be sadder and perhaps wiser. These feelings do not go away. You take the changes with you to your next relationship, be that with your current wife, or a new shiny and more glamorous SO.
It is the cost of the affair. changed forever. She has to live with the guilt. That is hers

You have a kid, you have history. She realized she was an idiot pretty quickly. 
If my wife had come around as quickly I would have reconciled. Four years was a bit long though. Even for me.
You will not be able to do it alone though. You will need pro help to do it and a lot of work on both parts. 

Whatever you decide to do everything is different. There is no going back


----------



## JohnA

Every thing @ing said is true and more. Part of your decision is going to based on how strong you think your WS will be handling triggers, mind movies, age more. MovingFrwrd unload on his wife for a long time, to the point I thought he would drive her away. (and yes she prolonged it by refusing to go to IC and other things) 

Your WS is not a little princess anymore that just trying is good enough. She is a woman who has dug a deep pit, filled it with ****, and weighed herself down to sink to the bottom. Daddy and mom can't fix this for her. She either has the fortitude to do so or se does not.


----------



## farsidejunky

We are all responsible for owning our own triggers. Comfort? Sure. Remorse? Absolutely. But never give someone so much power that they are expected to manage our triggers for us.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## JohnA

Hi FarsideJunky, but he will have them and she does not get to say "why are you dwelling in the past"! That is rug sweeping.


----------



## farsidejunky

JohnA said:


> Hi FarsideJunky, but he will have them and she does not get to say "why are you dwelling in the past"! That is rug sweeping.


I agree with this. 

Like I said, understanding and empathy, yes. Managing and owning for us, no.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> Like I said, understanding and empathy, yes. Managing and owning for us, no.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


And there's the rub right there. 

Proper application of empathy by one side, owning your **** on the other. 

Both are required.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

You received a lot of info to sort through. Have good weekend and let us know how you're doing?


----------



## Hantei

I don't know how am I doing. I guess now when I'm less busy with the separation activities the reality just caught up with me. And my son. 

I've been reading but didn't know what to respond really.


----------



## bandit.45

So no changes then. That's okay. Just keep living and breathing. Let the WW slink away. Sometimes that's best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hantei

bandit.45 said:


> So no changes then. That's okay. Just keep living and breathing. Let the WW slink away. Sometimes that's best.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Correct, no changes in a way that we are (I am) continuing the separation. She now badly wants to R and jumping out of her skin in that regard. However as I now know if not all the story than at least more than I ever knew what I was feeling before is nothing comparing to what I'm going through now.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> Correct, no changes in a way that we are (I am) continuing the separation. She now badly wants to R and jumping out of her skin in that regard. However as I now know if not all the story than at least more than I ever knew what I was feeling before is nothing comparing to what I'm going through now.


In what way, brother?

Emotional pain?


----------



## Decorum

Hantei said:


> Correct, no changes in a way that we are (I am) continuing the separation. She now badly wants to R and jumping out of her skin in that regard. However as I now know if not all the story than at least more than I ever knew what I was feeling before is nothing comparing to what I'm going through now.


Sorry Hantei, one foot in front of the other brother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

I hear you Hantei. After the intial shock wore off then the day to day reality of life without a spouse sets in. For me the worst time of the day was night. Lying in bed and trying to sleep my mind and emotions seem to go into overdrive and all I could barely manage was the routine. I found the experience not unlike a serious physical wound. The body goes into shock and it seemed for a moment there was no pain. It was later the waves of pain began. 

This is why I aiways push so hard BS when they first come here to get the frame work of a dovorce done. As harsh and raw as your reality is now, if you where not in your home, if you where not with your son as often you are, you would feel loss and grief beyond measure.

How are you are you sleeping ? What is your alcchol intake? Alcohol will only make things worse. A lack of sleep will deepen the downs. If you have to you, use an over the counter sleep aid. Be sure to get regular intense cardio type exercise to burn off the stress hormones your body is pumping out. Left unburned off they take a huge toll on the body and only severerly deepening depression. 

Good habits that you hold to for dear life is the only thing that will get though this. 

Strive to be well.


----------



## alte Dame

I think we go into fight or flight mode when we are shocked this way. When the dust starts to settle, our world is different and we begin processing the changes.

One thing I know from reading here (and from life in general ) is that it does get better. Read the follow-ups from people in forums like this. It gets better. It's a process.

I would advise you not to jump to R with her even if your heart wants it badly. Let things settle in. It's completely miserable, but I don't think there's any way to short-circuit the process. The 180 helps a lot, but doesn't completely remove the pain. It certainly doesn't provide a blueprint for your future. You have to do that.

Have you read bff's thread? If not, you should spend some time with it. He's an unusual man, in my opinion, but he has the right of it.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/51949-wife-best-friend-having-least-ea.html


----------



## JohnA

I've been thinking about your MIL response. It seems she has boxed herself into a corner with no good out. 

A: She deliberately blew up her daughters marriage in an attempt to get her daughter with the "chosen" one. 

B: She is a sadist who set out to cause her daughter despair by bringing the "the chosen one" into her life again. Her goal? To sit back and enjoy decades of her daughters misery in a marriage (to you) that should never should have happened. 


Lose - lose situation although it might be a win if her daughter suffers as a result of the "wrong one" being a incapable of being more enlighten. 

Truthfully if I was your FIL I would take a long hard look at his wife for infidelity in his marriage.


----------



## bankshot1993

So H, does this mean that even more has come to light further into discovery? I'm interpreting your update to mean that you have found out it was far worse than you had originally thought.


----------



## MovingFrwrd

bankshot1993 said:


> So H, does this mean that even more has come to light further into discovery? I'm interpreting your update to mean that you have found out it was far worse than you had originally thought.



Good question. I took his post to mean that the reality of all that has happened is sinking in, and at times it's difficult to fight the sense of hopelessness, anger, mind movies, and despair. Single parenting with an ex is a tough road to go. Even moreso with the entanglements of her family etc.

JohnA has offered some great advice. If you follow it, if nothing else you'll burn off anger and be helping your body.
@Hantei - Sleep is MUCHO important, but can be very hard to come by so I would suggest melatonin or other sleep aid could be considered for help. I was a walking zombie for a while. I still struggle when my wife travels - I average at least 3 hours less sleep a night when she's away on business. Some of that is the kids waking up, but most of it is I just don't want to go to bed.


----------



## TX-SC

What you are feeling is 100% normal and expected. Take as much time as you need to figure out what is best for you and your son. This is not a race.


----------



## bankshot1993

JohnA said:


> Truthfully if I was your FIL I would take a long hard look at his wife for infidelity in his marriage.


I've gotten the impression that the FIL is a true poster child for Beta. 

I realize the MIL didn't sit there and hold her daughters legs open for the OM but she did make the bed. That being said If my wife sabotaged my kids marriage and blew up their life like what happened here, I gotta say I would be looking strongly at divorce, never mind looking for affairs. After all, if being and proving your right is so important to you that you would do what was done here, I definitely don't want to be involved with you.

But like I said He seems like the ultimate beta so I wouldn't be surprised to find out she is having an affair and he knows and turns a blind eye to it.


----------



## Be smart

You dont have to do anything right now my friend. There is no need to rush.

Spend your time with your Son or a close friend. Dont fall into depression and dont blame yourself.
Join a gym or play some football with your friends. You can even make a good friends there.

Is your wife still coming home every night and beging you for R ? I am asking because she never answered some of your questions like why she never ended Affair and why is OM better man then you are! 

I know it is hard for you and your decision,but once you feel ready to decide what you want these are most important questions,sorry.

Stay strong.


----------



## Hantei

Thanks guys (and ladies). All of the above. Both the fact that when the dust settled the reality and magnitude of what happened caught up with me. My kid also snapped and let her have it and it was not nice. Details- - yes - I have them. May not be all of them. Counterintuitive what I learned is really mundane and does not change the landscape yet they make a huge effect. Strangely I'd feel more...stable.. if I learned (being sarcastic here) that she was having sex with SOB, his brother and the next door neighbor for years. Instead a have her falling for a stupid player so badly ahe felt obliged to follow his script.

On Tuesday I attempted to catch up with him on person. No luck but I'll keep trying. Really want him to repeat some things he said about me in my presence. 

My story is 100% opposite to bff (unremorseful wife happy in post marriage relationship with OM and no kids). Wish mine was the same.


----------



## farsidejunky

You wish yours was the same?
@Hantei, that means you want someone else to cross a more critical boundary to make your decision easier.

You are stronger that that.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> I don't know how am I doing. I guess now when I'm less busy with the separation activities the reality just caught up with me. And my son.
> 
> I've been reading but didn't know what to respond really.


You don't need to respond or do anything. I've found some times the solution comes if you leave it alone awhile.

Everyone is on your time/schedule.


----------



## Marc878

> On Tuesday I attempted to catch up with him on person. No luck but I'll keep trying. Really want him to repeat some things he said about me in my presence.
> 
> *Where did the source of the info come from?*
> 
> My story is 100% opposite to bff (unremorseful wife happy in post marriage relationship with OM and no kids). Wish mine was the same.
> 
> *She knew the game was over as he never gave her a chance at R
> *


----------



## Hantei

farsidejunky said:


> You wish yours was the same?
> @Hantei, that means you want someone else to cross a more critical boundary to make your decision easier.
> 
> You are stronger that that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Not exactly. While I admit the decision is not an easy one to make, what I meant is: if she'd be behaving like that the whole story would at least make sense to me. Wouldn't be easier but at least it would be logical.


----------



## Hantei

All media she offered and handed over to me to proove she's transparent and not lying. That's where all details I mentioned came from.


----------



## Dyokemm

"On Tuesday I attempted to catch up with him on person. No luck but I'll keep trying. Really want him to repeat some things he said about me in my presence."

I understand the desire to confront this POS.....and I have no problem with you trying to do that.

Just want to say don't get your hopes up.

Like nearly every POSOM I have ever read about, he is a f*cking p*ssy.....there is no way he will ever answer for what he did.

He will run from you as fast as possible.


----------



## Marc878

Yep, better buy some good running shoes and work on your sprinting capabilities.


----------



## ing

Hi again
After the dust has settled a bit it can feel very quiet. All that adrenalin, anger and action followed by nothing. It is hard.

Sleep in the middle of the bed, move things around in the house, buy a new stereo or marine thingywhatsit. It is all part of finding the person you were or want to be and this will take some time. 
I went all Forest Gump and walked two pairs of industrial level walking shoes into oblivion. You will probably be salivating over stainless steel rigging and launching your boat at dawn. It really doesn't matter. 

I barely recognize the old me. There was a moment, a few years back, where I was doing the dishes and a thought popped into my head as if a stranger had yelled in my ear. 
"Ing what are you doing all this for!" 

That one thought altered the course of my life for the second time in five years. I simply stopped doing things that I thought that I _should_ do and started doing things I _wanted_ to. My kids didn't really notice until one day I arrived home not in my almost new sensible sedan but in a battered twenty year old four wheel drive with peeling paint. And a grin from ear to ear.

I also bought a dishwasher.

It is not enough for your wife to sit at her Mothers and wring her hands at the damage and loss. That is a done deal, a cat swung and dash done. 

Like a death, affairs are a waypoint. A place in time where there is a before and an after.
To reconcile she will have to accept the new you, and you the new her. If you can, or want, to do that you can continue the journey together.


----------



## Hantei

Well, I have been painted out as an emotionless cold blooded bastard who doesn't care about delicate feelings of others and is emotionally mean.

I have to live up to the expectation.



Dyokemm said:


> "On Tuesday I attempted to catch up with him on person. No luck but I'll keep trying. Really want him to repeat some things he said about me in my presence."
> 
> I understand the desire to confront this POS.....and I have no problem with you trying to do that.
> 
> Just want to say don't get your hopes up.
> 
> Like nearly every POSOM I have ever read about, he is a f*cking p*ssy.....there is no way he will ever answer for what he did.
> 
> He will run from you as fast as possible.


----------



## Hantei

Mid May I'll be taking my son on our traditional autumn trip - and for the 1st time in a decade without her.

5 minutes ago I sent her an email notifying her that she won't bev seeing the kid for a week.

How do you think she should react if she's honest in her desire to R on my terms?





ing said:


> Hi again
> After the dust has settled a bit it can feel very quiet. All that adrenalin, anger and action followed by nothing. It is hard.
> 
> Sleep in the middle of the bed, move things around in the house, buy a new stereo or marine thingywhatsit. It is all part of finding the person you were or want to be and this will take some time.
> I went all Forest Gump and walked two pairs of industrial level walking shoes into oblivion. You will probably be salivating over stainless steel rigging and launching your boat at dawn. It really doesn't matter.
> 
> I barely recognize the old me. There was a moment, a few years back, where I was doing the dishes and a thought popped into my head as if a stranger had yelled in my ear.
> "Ing what are you doing all this for!"
> 
> That one thought altered the course of my life for the second time in five years. I simply stopped doing things that I thought that I _should_ do and started doing things I _wanted_ to. My kids didn't really notice until one day I arrived home not in my almost new sensible sedan but in a battered twenty year old four wheel drive with peeling paint. And a grin from ear to ear.
> 
> I also bought a dishwasher.
> 
> It is not enough for your wife to sit at her Mothers and wring her hands at the damage and loss. That is a done deal, a cat swung and dash done.
> 
> Like a death, affairs are a waypoint. A place in time where there is a before and an after.
> To reconcile she will have to accept the new you, and you the new her. If you can, or want, to do that you can continue the journey together.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> Well, I have been painted out as an emotionless cold blooded bastard who doesn't care about delicate feelings of others and is emotionally mean.
> 
> I have to live up to the expectation.


Don't consequences suck?

How about hypocrisy? 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> Mid May I'll be taking my son on our traditional autumn trip - and for the 1st time in a decade without her.
> 
> 5 minutes ago I sent her an email notifying her that she won't bev seeing the kid for a week.
> 
> How do you think she should react if she's honest in her desire to R on my terms?


Initially hurt, but then acceptance.

Entitlement,  @Hantei, is what several posters have been seeing from her.

Has she apologized yet?

ETA: This is one huge sign of a lack of remorse if she continues this way. If she initially snaps, then is falling all over herself apologizing, then it is not as clear.

But brother, her entire fiasco reeks of eneitlement. Is she entitled? Has she been through the marriage? How about selfish? Any signs of that in retrospect after what has happened?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

She's been "all over herself" apologizing. Actually she apologized many times straight after I busted her. Of course then it was "sorry I hurt you but I'm moving on". Now it's totally different as you may imagine. 

Even in retrospect I can't honestly say (despite a temptation to do so as it would fit the puzzle of what happened) she was selfish. I'd say opposite- I used to encourage her to do more for herself. May not fit the theory but this is what it is (was).




farsidejunky said:


> Initially hurt, but then acceptance.
> 
> Entitlement, @Hantei, is what several posters have been seeing from her.
> 
> Has she apologized yet?
> 
> ETA: This is one huge sign of a lack of remorse if she continues this way. If she initially snaps, then is falling all over herself apologizing, then it is not as clear.
> 
> But brother, her entire fiasco reeks of eneitlement. Is she entitled? Has she been through the marriage? How about selfish? Any signs of that in retrospect after what has happened?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

What I meant by apology is as she apologized and she blew up on you?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

farsidejunky said:


> What I meant by apology is as she apologized and she blew up on you?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


You mean apologizing one moment and getting mad the next one? No.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> Well, I have been painted out as an emotionless cold blooded bastard who doesn't care about delicate feelings of others and is emotionally mean.
> 
> I have to live up to the expectation.


You're just like a lot of us. You keep those feelings internal. I do the same thing.

Not unusual.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> Mid May I'll be taking my son on our traditional autumn trip - and for the 1st time in a decade without her.
> 
> 5 minutes ago I sent her an email notifying her that she won't bev seeing the kid for a week.
> 
> How do you think she should react if she's honest in her desire to R on my terms?


It doesn't matter how she reacts. This is a good thing. Take your son and enjoy the time with him. It'll be good for you to bond with him only. This also relays a message. We'll be fine without you. Do not in any circumstances invite her along. 

It's called consequences. Telling you "sorry but I'm moving on" once said cannot be unsaid. This will be a good time for her to reflect on her actions.

R at this point if you choose will be only on your terms. Don't waste time if the chance of success isn't good. You'll know if you think with your head. Leave your heart out of it.


----------



## JohnA

Hi! 

Some clarification please, who described you as emotionally cold, mean, and insensitive? 

Have any of your friends made contact with you?


----------



## Graywolf2

Hantei said:


> She's been "all over herself" apologizing. Actually she apologized many times straight after I busted her. Of course then it was* "sorry I hurt you but I'm moving on". *Now it's totally different as you may imagine.


Now it's *"sorry I hurt you but I don't want to move". *


----------



## Hantei

JohnA said:


> Hi!
> 
> Some clarification please, who described you as emotionally cold, mean, and insensitive?
> 
> Have any of your friends made contact with you?


That was his theme, his script (as I know these days) to paint me like that so that he can keep making the point that "he does not deserve a women like you". He could not blame me for being unfit, uneducated, not earning enough or say abusive so he picked up this line. Where did he initially learn about my emotional character- the answer is from MIL and initial more or less innocent discussion with STBXW. 

I know this now as I have full access to emails, etc. Back in February I've got a sugar coated version from her - see my initial posts. 


Yes friends have been contacting me. The majority assume we will work it out.




Graywolf2 said:


> Now it's *"sorry I hurt you but I don't want to move". *



Yes, this is a short summary as I see it.


----------



## Mike11

The tragedy is that this is a classical example how a woman in a weak mind moment, lets a complete Douche baggie, ruin her marriage, her family and her life for some stupid 5 minute excitement and even worst, with the help of her Narc mother, this is not going to end well for your Wife Hantei even if you decide to R, which is the tragedy in all this, Douche will try to get in to her pants again, in fact I will not be surprised if he already tried in some way, I hope you are keeping tabs on the Intel Hantei.


----------



## Marc878

Just for fun I'd send a pleasant greeting card to SOB's office.

I want to apologize for not meeting up but I've been so busy, etc.

Can't wait to get together and catch up SOON!!!!


----------



## Marc878

If it were me I'd send one to MIL as well. 

Pick out a nice flowery card. So that you catch her off guard.


Hey MIL,

Just wanted you to know I never truly realized how vile and low you really were, etc, etc, etc.

I've made my son aware so that he knows the full details as well. 

I'm grateful I got a chance to know the real you so I can fully purge you from my life.



Your W will know if there is a chance at R where you stand. Once she realizes this R may not even come up if they have that much sway over her you don't want it anyway. Problem is solved.


----------



## JohnA

At the end of the day your WW is responsible for her own actions, but along the way you MIL has reserved a special place in hell for herself. Your MIL needs to stop Fing up other people's life and try to fix her own. 

I sent you a PM with a description of how a player preys. What most people miss is the player is not a pick up artist at the local bar. He is like the fisherman I saw on the beach at the ocean. They would have a dozen poles along the beach and would sit and watch for a fish to hit a line. He is always the really nice guy who is friendly in a casual manner, as one of the woman becomes relaxed and begins to open up he gently prods and magnifies the issue. Always understanding, always listening, always letting the woman convince herself to come to him. 

Do they still use the term "white ant" there? 

Thanks for the clarification,.


----------



## Hantei

@Mike11 - I am keeping tabs on Intel. So far it is a no contact from both ends (unless they went on with some very sophisticated cover up, which seems unlikely). Once again I don't mind her moving on with her soulmate, I just asked her to simply let me know.
@Marc878 - I'm not going to contact MIL even if she remains the last women on earth. As far as I can gather from the info I've got SOB did not expect any exposure of his fling. Partially because he assumed it will not cause any drama (I wonder why?) and was shocked by the reaction. He was very afraid of workplace exposure (small boutique company, very relationship based) so that's what going to happen. 
@JohnA- yes, a player he is. To clarify further. If any of you have been involved in any combat sport. You know you cautiously probe your opponents defence here and there, see the opening and go with full speed and force. If the opening was real you score, otherwise you recover and start probing again. He did the same. He tried different directions, she deflected his attempts to get through the lifestyle, the time I spent with her (eg I wonder if he works so hard does he ever have time for you) etc. She deflected, he went on to the emotional stuff, she was not as strong, gave him a small opening, he pounced and scored. All info I have is consistent with the above.


----------



## whitewolf

When a man has been cheated on and ask for advice/help, the vast majority start right off with "divorce the ****; once a cheater always a cheater; you can't ever trust her again." I don't believe this is true in every case. If you have a spouse that is a repeat cheater, has no respect for you or your marriage and has no remorse at all, then I go along with divorce the woman. Some are truly sorry and remorseful and given the chance will not do it again. Some people actually learn from something bad they have done. Having read the 82 pages of your saga, I think you have a wife that would trade years of her life to get back what she has lost. Everyone says, make the spouse take a polygraph. Hate to burst that bubble but having done some work in military intelligence, I have seen the polygraph beaten more than once. Look it up on Google. You will get about 90,000 hits. So it boils down to this; do you love her; do you believe she is remorseful; do you want to stay married to her; do you think given the chance she will cheat again? YOU have to answer these questions and be honest to yourself. Yes, she screwed up big time and she knows she screwed up big time. You keep her away from the MIL and you just might end up with a wife that will try harder and love being your wife more that before the A. Yes, she made a big dent in your life. If you had a car you really liked and you put a big dent in the fender, would you junk the whole car are would you fix the dent. So, are you going to junk the marriage or try and fix the dent. Right now you hold all the cards and if you get a divorce it's because you want a divorce and you don't want to fix the dent. If you do decide to R then let her know that she owes you one, A BIG ONE. You never know when you may need a second chance for something bad you do. If you do R then R. Don't do like some and use R as a means for punishment. It is better to just part ways than to do that. Being from the old school, I would also find a way to let the POS know that if he ever comes near my wife again he was going to have a very bad day. Even though the two professions I had in my working career were both filled with violence I am a romantic at heart and like happy endings. I wish you well.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> I'm not going to contact MIL even if she remains the last women on earth. As far as I can gather from the info I've got SOB did not expect any exposure of his fling. Partially because he assumed it will not cause any drama (I wonder why?) and was shocked by the reaction. He was very afraid of workplace exposure (small boutique company, very relationship based) so that's what going to happen.


That says upfront he was only looking for a fling and nothing more. It wasn't just an excuse to try and get out of the line of fire.

Which opens the question. Did the wife know it was only a fling as well?

If she did she had no intention of you ever finding out and was content living a lie.

On the other issue. If he used work phones or work email which they almost always do there's usually a company policy around moral behavior.


----------



## JohnA

Part of the appeal of sports is how they mimic life. Growing up I would play football, rugby, basketball, and baseball. Each sport taught many life lessons. 

I recall reading your first couple of posts when you were trying to make sense of her reasoning. How you examined your efforts at keeping a social life for just the two of you and compared what she claimed she got from him but not you. How all the reasons just did not add up. It seems at this point she is just as confused as you at her logic. Which in itself is a red flag against reconciliation. The why gives you the what to do different to avoid it happening again. 

I just reread BetrayedDad's thread on his marriage. Some of the elements are very similar to your's. Like you he accepted his wife decsion and moved quickly to divorce. His wife to was very much in la la land. To appear to be fair and get her BS out of her life she was generous about the terms of the divorce. 

You are in a good place right now to heal. You are in your home and although your son is absent at times it s his home as well. I have known several people who growing up did not have a stable residence. At times as children they lived with other family members always never knowing when the next move would happen. Having a secure residence is a primal need. You and your son have such a place, your WW does not. Yet another red flag against reconciliation as it raises the question of motivation. 

You are right exercise caution at this point.


----------



## bankshot1993

whitewolf said:


> When a man has been cheated on and ask for advice/help, the vast majority start right off with "divorce the ****; once a cheater always a cheater; you can't ever trust her again." I don't believe this is true in every case. If you have a spouse that is a repeat cheater, has no respect for you or your marriage and has no remorse at all, then I go along with divorce the woman. Some are truly sorry and remorseful and given the chance will not do it again. Some people actually learn from something bad they have done. Having read the 82 pages of your saga, I think you have a wife that would trade years of her life to get back what she has lost. Everyone says, make the spouse take a polygraph. Hate to burst that bubble but having done some work in military intelligence, I have seen the polygraph beaten more than once. Look it up on Google. You will get about 90,000 hits. So it boils down to this; do you love her; do you believe she is remorseful; do you want to stay married to her; do you think given the chance she will cheat again? YOU have to answer these questions and be honest to yourself. Yes, she screwed up big time and she knows she screwed up big time. You keep her away from the MIL and you just might end up with a wife that will try harder and love being your wife more that before the A. Yes, she made a big dent in your life. If you had a car you really liked and you put a big dent in the fender, would you junk the whole car are would you fix the dent. So, are you going to junk the marriage or try and fix the dent. Right now you hold all the cards and if you get a divorce it's because you want a divorce and you don't want to fix the dent. If you do decide to R then let her know that she owes you one, A BIG ONE. You never know when you may need a second chance for something bad you do. If you do R then R. Don't do like some and use R as a means for punishment. It is better to just part ways than to do that. Being from the old school, I would also find a way to let the POS know that if he ever comes near my wife again he was going to have a very bad day. Even though the two professions I had in my working career were both filled with violence I am a romantic at heart and like happy endings. I wish you well.



There is still one thing that wasn't mentioned here, the memory. Lets say you are correct (i have no reason to believe you aren't), and lets say she is completely repentant. In addition lets assume that H makes the decision to R, he's all in and she's all in. There is still the issue of how this all went down.

H may full well want to R but that doesn't change the fact that h was relegated to the back up plan position. When she was exposed she was pretty much out the door telling H why he wasn' t good enough for her any more and how the other man is so much better.

How can H move forward in life with a wife that said that? How do you unhear that? How can he be expected to wake up beside a woman everyday for the rest of his life knowing she wanted it to be somebody else? 

To be honest i have very much the same outlook on this kind of thing as you. I believe people make mistakes in a moment of currupted judgement and they cant be defined by that. The issue becomes what they do when exposed, that is the time for repentance and she had none until she got dumped by the OM. If the OM wanted her she would have been down the road with him and not a thought for H.

So even if she is fully remorseful and H has every trust that she will never cheat again, how can he accept the fact that his wife is only with him because the other man had his fun and was done with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

whitewolf said:


> Yes, she made a big dent in your life. If you had a car you really liked and you put a big dent in the fender, would you junk the whole car are would you fix the dent. So, are you going to junk the marriage or try and fix the dent. Right now you hold all the cards and if you get a divorce it's because you want a divorce and you don't want to fix the dent.


More like she ran the car high speed into a guardrail and ripped off the front left fender and destroyed the door and rocker panel. 

Let's not lose perspective. This wasn't a drunken one night stand. She planned to leave him for the other man.


----------



## whitewolf

Maybe I have misread or misunderstood something. What I gathered was that the WW was physical with the POS twice. The first time she felt bad and the second time she really felt worse and saw no future with the POS and ended the A. The POS was in it for the sex and I don't think the WW was really sure how she got to this place. I don't remember anywhere it was said that the WW regulated Hantei to the Plan B position. I don't remember anywhere she had plans to leave her husband. She had already "seen the light" and ended it by the time Hantei caught on to the A, and apparently, knowing her husband, she had decided that he would never forgive her and therefore came up with this bulls**t of moving on for "emotional connection" reasons. (page 68 of the saga) In the orient they would call this trying to save face. So where was the Plan B? Her mental anguish would not let her hold on to her decision and the huge misdirection she had let her life move off in, therefore the breakdown of her mental resolve. So as bandit.45 said, maybe she did rip off the front fender and destroy the door and rocker panel, but the engine is still good and the damaged parts can be repaired. And no it wasn't a ONS. It was a stupid venture into la-la land that she would trade almost anything for it not to have happened. How many of us have never had a walk in la-la land even if it wasn't an EA or PA? bankshot1993....What she said to her husband as she left was her lying to him and to herself because she believed there was no forgiveness for her and she was trying to, save face. I think that if there is a R, SHE will be waking up every morning next to Hantei and thanking God and all the powers of the universe that it is Hanei and not that POS she got mixed up with. As far as Hantei living with this, it depends on how strong his "will" is. My wife tells me I have a very strong will. I have some things that life threw at me that I am always going to have to live with. The secret is that you live with them, you don't let them live with you. If you live with them then you can put them somewhere in the back of your mind. They will come out once in a while, you can't stop them, but you can control them and put them back. If you let them live with you then they are always at the forefront and can destroy your mental happiness and in turn, your life. I am still a romantic and I think this car is worth fixing. I wish you well.


----------



## bandit.45

Her motivations and reasoning for having the affair aside, the biggest issue I see is her unwillingness, or at least her inability, to fix what she has broken. This is an intelligent adult woman with a brain in her head. If she wanted to show Hantei that she was doing everything in her power to get to the core of her issues and work on her sh!t, then I think Hantei would be responding to her. But so far, according to him.....goose egg....

She may indeed be remorseful and in true pain over what she did to her husband and family, but she is most likely one of those people, who for whatever reason, are unable to express their feelings and thoughts in any cogent manner. So, out of fear that she is going to say the wrong thing to him, or out of fear that he will misconstrue what she tells him, she holds back and says nothing. She knows she botched her explanation for her affair. 

She knows that she should have just come out and said "I was bored, I reconnected with an old suitor with whom I had unfinished business, we flirted and remenisced, I lusted after him, and I wanted to explore what it would have been like to have actually been in a physical relationship with him...so I did. That's my reason. I wasn't thinking about you or our family Hantei. I just shut that part of my life out. That is it. I threw my marriage away for a few cheap orgasms. I was selfish and stupid." That is probably the closest to the truth there is.


----------



## Marc878

whitewolf said:


> Maybe I have misread or misunderstood something. What I gathered was that the WW was physical with the POS twice. The first time she felt bad and the second time she really felt worse and saw no future with the POS and ended the A. The POS was in it for the sex and I don't think the WW was really sure how she got to this place. I don't remember anywhere it was said that the WW regulated Hantei to the Plan B position. I don't remember anywhere she had plans to leave her husband. She had already "seen the light" and ended it by the time Hantei caught on to the A, and apparently, knowing her husband, she had decided that he would never forgive her and therefore came up with this bulls**t of moving on for "emotional connection" reasons. (page 68 of the saga) In the orient they would call this trying to save face. So where was the Plan B? Her mental anguish would not let her hold on to her decision and the huge misdirection she had let her life move off in, therefore the breakdown of her mental resolve. So as bandit.45 said, maybe she did rip off the front fender and destroy the door and rocker panel, but the engine is still good and the damaged parts can be repaired. And no it wasn't a ONS. It was a stupid venture into la-la land that she would trade almost anything for it not to have happened. How many of us have never had a walk in la-la land even if it wasn't an EA or PA? bankshot1993....What she said to her husband as she left was her lying to him and to herself because she believed there was no forgiveness for her and she was trying to, save face. I think that if there is a R, SHE will be waking up every morning next to Hantei and thanking God and all the powers of the universe that it is Hanei and not that POS she got mixed up with. As far as Hantei living with this, it depends on how strong his "will" is. My wife tells me I have a very strong will. I have some things that life threw at me that I am always going to have to live with. The secret is that you live with them, you don't let them live with you. If you live with them then you can put them somewhere in the back of your mind. They will come out once in a while, you can't stop them, but you can control them and put them back. If you let them live with you then they are always at the forefront and can destroy your mental happiness and in turn, your life. I am still a romantic and I think this car is worth fixing. I wish you well.


If you read back through the threads she stated OM was everything she wanted and was moving on. Then OM dumped her shortly after.

Now the "I want back in" is the classic plan B. I don't think it requires a high IQ to read into this one.

Paragraphs are your friend.


----------



## Marc878

bandit.45 said:


> More like she ran the car high speed into a guardrail and ripped off the front left fender and destroyed the door and rocker panel.
> 
> Let's not lose perspective. This wasn't a drunken one night stand. She planned to leave him for the other man.


On further inspection she may have rolled it a couple times too.

Just sayin :nerd:


----------



## Marc878

Reflection: Do I think she would be a good wife after all the dust settles?

Yes, I think she would. A bad decision, choice does not make someone a bad person.

However, the problem is could Hantei ever treat her like a wife should be treated after all that's been said and done??? I'm not sure. Only he can answer this.


Opinions are like azz holes everybody has one. Mine included.


----------



## TX-SC

whitewolf said:


> Maybe I have misread or misunderstood something. What I gathered was that the WW was physical with the POS twice. The first time she felt bad and the second time she really felt worse and saw no future with the POS and ended the A. The POS was in it for the sex and I don't think the WW was really sure how she got to this place. I don't remember anywhere it was said that the WW regulated Hantei to the Plan B position. I don't remember anywhere she had plans to leave her husband. She had already "seen the light" and ended it by the time Hantei caught on to the A, and apparently, knowing her husband, she had decided that he would never forgive her and therefore came up with this bulls**t of moving on for "emotional connection" reasons. (page 68 of the saga) In the orient they would call this trying to save face. So where was the Plan B? Her mental anguish would not let her hold on to her decision and the huge misdirection she had let her life move off in, therefore the breakdown of her mental resolve. So as bandit.45 said, maybe she did rip off the front fender and destroy the door and rocker panel, but the engine is still good and the damaged parts can be repaired. And no it wasn't a ONS. It was a stupid venture into la-la land that she would trade almost anything for it not to have happened. How many of us have never had a walk in la-la land even if it wasn't an EA or PA? bankshot1993....What she said to her husband as she left was her lying to him and to herself because she believed there was no forgiveness for her and she was trying to, save face. I think that if there is a R, SHE will be waking up every morning next to Hantei and thanking God and all the powers of the universe that it is Hanei and not that POS she got mixed up with. As far as Hantei living with this, it depends on how strong his "will" is. My wife tells me I have a very strong will. I have some things that life threw at me that I am always going to have to live with. The secret is that you live with them, you don't let them live with you. If you live with them then you can put them somewhere in the back of your mind. They will come out once in a while, you can't stop them, but you can control them and put them back. If you let them live with you then they are always at the forefront and can destroy your mental happiness and in turn, your life. I am still a romantic and I think this car is worth fixing. I wish you well.


That's not my interpretation of the situation. She told her husband that he was not what she wanted and that she was moving on. It wasn't until the OM dumped her that she decided to get back with Hantei. In fact, she pretty much admitted as much after it was over. Our friend Hantei here is her Plan B.


----------



## sparrow55

whitewolf said:


> When a man has been cheated on and ask for advice/help, the vast majority start right off with "divorce the ****; once a cheater always a cheater; you can't ever trust her again." I don't believe this is true in every case. If you have a spouse that is a repeat cheater, has no respect for you or your marriage and has no remorse at all, then I go along with divorce the woman. Some are truly sorry and remorseful and given the chance will not do it again. Some people actually learn from something bad they have done. Having read the 82 pages of your saga, I think you have a wife that would trade years of her life to get back what she has lost. Everyone says, make the spouse take a polygraph. Hate to burst that bubble but having done some work in military intelligence, I have seen the polygraph beaten more than once. Look it up on Google. You will get about 90,000 hits. So it boils down to this; do you love her; do you believe she is remorseful; do you want to stay married to her; do you think given the chance she will cheat again? YOU have to answer these questions and be honest to yourself. Yes, she screwed up big time and she knows she screwed up big time. You keep her away from the MIL and you just might end up with a wife that will try harder and love being your wife more that before the A. Yes, she made a big dent in your life. If you had a car you really liked and you put a big dent in the fender, would you junk the whole car are would you fix the dent. So, are you going to junk the marriage or try and fix the dent. Right now you hold all the cards and if you get a divorce it's because you want a divorce and you don't want to fix the dent. If you do decide to R then let her know that she owes you one, A BIG ONE. You never know when you may need a second chance for something bad you do. If you do R then R. Don't do like some and use R as a means for punishment. It is better to just part ways than to do that. Being from the old school, I would also find a way to let the POS know that if he ever comes near my wife again he was going to have a very bad day. Even though the two professions I had in my working career were both filled with violence I am a romantic at heart and like happy endings. I wish you well.


 As much as people like to deceive themselves about it, R is not a happy ending in most situations.


----------



## Mike11

it is a double edge sword in my opinion, of you chose to R there may be a complete breakdown down the line for inability from both parties to overcome the events as they happened, on the other hand, guilt and "What if" questions will always linger and can in some cased torment someone for years in the future, hence the tragedy of this situation


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> That says upfront he was only looking for a fling and nothing more. It wasn't just an excuse to try and get out of the line of fire.
> Which opens the question. Did the wife know it was only a fling as well?


Clearly he was only looking for a fling. Now when I have the info it was pain, clear and obvious. Based on what I know now it worked like this (not that I'm asking for any info now - it has been "given" to me). He was not obviously looking for any kind of long term "offcial" relationship and was avoding any discussion that could bring up a subject of any "future together". She has, in TAM jargo "compartmentalized" the whole thing (in my simple mind reads "never thought she will be caught" and - before the D-day - never initiated any "future" discussion either. After being busted she gave me that "I'm moving on, I have that emotional connection BS" story just because she thought that's a direction to go after being busted and not because the SOB commited to anything. So after the fact she turned to him for "anything" and he responded with that notorious "new era mariage" line - effectively giving her a cold shoulder. Basically he told her "why do you think we should have any future, I've never said it was on the plate". 
Interestingly enough that was one of the very few questions I asked (perhaps I broke the 180 but couldn't resist). I asked her why did she give that "moving on with a more compatible man" line when in reality he made no commitment whatsoever. I was certain that they did have some verbal discussion on the subject (apart from crying togehter  ) so at least she had a reson to expect something. She answered that bascially she was projecting my qualities onto him - e.g. as she knew that I wouldn't dump "my woman" at the 1st sign of a trouble (as I did not at times when her family was trying hard to break us apart) she assumed "he" would behave in the same way. 




bankshot1993 said:


> There is still one thing that wasn't mentioned here, the memory. Lets say you are correct (i have no reason to believe you aren't), and lets say she is completely repentant. In addition lets assume that H makes the decision to R, he's all in and she's all in. There is still the issue of how this all went down....


Correct. The same thing as when my son (at a younger age) sed to do something wrong and then say "I'm sorry, I won't do it again" to avoid consequenses. I used to say "I know you are sorry and I trust you won't do it again but who told you you have a free pass to do it even once"?



bandit.45 said:


> She knows that she should have just come out and said "I was bored, I reconnected with an old suitor with whom I had unfinished business, we flirted and remenisced, I lusted after him, and I wanted to explore what it would have been like to have actually been in a physical relationship with him...so I did. That's my reason. I wasn't thinking about you or our family Hantei. I just shut that part of my life out. That is it. I threw my marriage away for a few cheap orgasms. I was selfish and stupid." That is probably the closest to the truth there is.


Well, she did exactly that now, multiple times... doesn't feel any better. Or do you mean she should have done it before being busted?



sparrow55 said:


> As much as people like to deceive themselves about it, R is not a happy ending in most situations.


There is no happy ending at all - with D or R.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> *She has, in TAM jargo "compartmentalized" the whole thing (in my simple mind reads "never thought she will be caught" and - before the D-day - never initiated any "future" discussion either. *After being busted she gave me that "I'm moving on, I have that emotional connection BS" story just because she thought that's a direction to go after being busted and not because the SOB commited to anything. So after the fact she turned to him for "anything" and he responded with that notorious "new era mariage" line - effectively giving her a cold shoulder. Basically he told her "why do you think we should have any future, I've never said it was on the plate".
> Interestingly enough that was one of the very few questions I asked (perhaps I broke the 180 but couldn't resist). I asked her why did she give that "moving on with a more compatible man" line when in reality he made no commitment whatsoever. I was certain that they did have some verbal discussion on the subject *(apart from crying togehter  ) *


So the affair was going to continue when you busted them?

The crying would be pretty embarrassing. To be used later >


----------



## Marc878

Geeze it sounds like she's a high school girl.


----------



## TDSC60

Hantei. She thought OM would support her when she was busted and told you she wanted a man with qualities you do not have. I think she intended to move on with him and was surprised when he rejected her. That is the only reason she is now after Plan B - you.

I know you were shocked when you caught her, but when she was telling you what qualities she wanted in a man - did you believe her? Did she sound sincere when she told you she was sorry for hurting you but she was moving on?

No matter what she says now, if you believed what she was telling you then, the only thing that changed is that OM rejected her when she went to him with the news that you found out and she was leaving you for him. You have to be suspect of anything she says now no matter how much you want to believe her.


----------



## bandit.45

Waywards "in the fog" do not see reason. They are living in a fantasy world and are blind to the truth of their situation. It really is a self-imposed psychosis.

When Hantei's wife said those things, about the OM having qualities that Hentai lacked, she probably believed what she was saying at that specific moment in time. I vacillate over the idea that she said those things to Hantei in order speed the breakup process and justify her actions. It is quite possible that her guilty foggy brain actually concocted that tripe and she believed it. But when the OP abruptly told her no way in hell he was going to leave his wife for her, that false mental construct collapsed and imploded. 

She's fvcked and she knows it. She has convinced herself that nothing she can say or do will keep Hantei from leaving her and divorcing, so she doesn't even try.


----------



## bandit.45

Also, many here are amazed at how fast all this went down: from the time she first reunited with the OM to the time she ended up in the sack with him. 

It is not unusual at all in fact. 

I would wager that Hantei's wife and OM had been keeping in covert contact with one another throughout Hantei's marriage. Hantei's timeline is completely believable to me. OM was "the one that got away" and when the WW saw she had a chance to reel that fish back in, she went for it.


----------



## alte Dame

This does sound very high school to me. I am always astounded at the fantasy associated with this. I wasn't even like this in hs. You've got an immature girl on your hands, H.


----------



## bandit.45

We are giving the MIL too much credit.


----------



## bankshot1993

Mike11 said:


> it is a double edge sword in my opinion, of you chose to R there may be a complete breakdown down the line for inability from both parties to overcome the events as they happened, on the other hand, guilt and "What if" questions will always linger and can in some cased torment someone for years in the future, hence the tragedy of this situation


This right here, the what ifs, is what will be the worst thing for H in this situation. What if the posom hadn't sent H's wife packing? Would there be any remorse at all? Would she have eventually realized her wrong and come back?

There is no way for H to ever know because he caught it and then the OM dumped her not the other way around, she never chose H, she chose the other man. She went back to H only after the other man tossed her aside.

Maybe it was because of "the Fog" maybe it was because she was trying to "save face" or maybe it was for one of a million other reasons, none of it matters because in the end H will always have the knowledge that she chose the other man ahead of him.

What makes it worse is that the Other man tossed her aside so not only is H her Plan B but to reconcile he has to accept that he is taking MR Enlightened's discarded trash. This would be a pretty tough pill to swallow for anybody.

This all looks different if at discovery she comes out and says she F'ed up and made a mistake but she basically said the mistake was marrying H. So how can he R knowing this? even if they both want R how do you undo that damage?


----------



## bankshot1993

bandit.45 said:


> Waywards "in the fog" do not see reason. They are living in a fantasy world and are blind to the truth of their situation. It really is a self-imposed psychosis.
> 
> When Hantei's wife said those things, about the OM having qualities that Hentai lacked, she probably believed what she was saying at that specific moment in time. I vacillate over the idea that she said those things to Hantei in order speed the breakup process and justify her actions. It is quite possible that her guilty foggy brain actually concocted that tripe and she believed it. *But when the OP abruptly told her no way in hell he was going to leave his wife for her, that false mental construct collapsed and imploded.*
> 
> She's fvcked and she knows it. *She has convinced herself that nothing she can say or do will keep Hantei from leaving her and divorcing, so she doesn't even try*.



OM isn't married and H's wife has been doing anything and everything to get H back.


----------



## Palodyne

I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but that explanation from her is complete nonsense. So basically she leaves Hantei because this guy gives her everything Hantei can't. He is so much better. Now that he dropped her on her butt, and she comes crying home, she tells Hantei she went with Other Man because she was projecting Hantei's qualities on to him. So in her defense, Hantei was so awesome, that she had to pretend she was leaving Hantei for Hentei.

Does anyone else find this logic, for lack of a better word, comical? Sounds like she is grasping at straws to get H to take her back. Hantei, brother, you need to step back from her for a while. She's a grown woman, she cheated because she wanted to. She left because she wanted to. Now that she has to face the consequences of her decisions, she doesn't want to. You better make sure she has to.


----------



## bandit.45

bankshot1993 said:


> OM isn't married and H's wife has been doing anything and everything to get H back.


No actually she has not. She has been apologizing and talking, talking, talking, but she has yet to show any movement towards working on herself. 

If she was to bring Hantei receipts from her counseling sessions, showing him the books on recovering from infidelity she has been reading, abstaining from drinking, writing a letter of apology to Hantei's family, setting up a polygraph for herself, writing Hantei a timeline of the affair...stuff like that...then Hantei could SEE that she is trying to fix herself and get to the crux of her sorry-ass boundaries.. 

But she hasn't done any of that. She just apologizes and waits for him to tell her what to do. Hantei wants to see pro-action, not reaction.


----------



## bankshot1993

Palodyne said:


> I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but that explanation from her is complete nonsense. So basically she leaves Hantei because this guy gives her everything Hantei can't. He is so much better. Now that he dropped her on her butt, and she comes crying home, she tells Hantei she went with Other Man because she was projecting Hantei's qualities on to him. So in her defense, Hantei was so awesome, that she had to pretend she was leaving Hantei for Hentei.
> 
> Does anyone else find this logic, for lack of a better word, comical? Sounds like she is grasping at straws to get H to take her back. Hantei, brother, you need to step back from her for a while. She's a grown woman, she cheated because she wanted to. She left because she wanted to. Now that she has to face the consequences of her decisions, she doesn't want to. You better make sure she has to.


Yes it makes no sense at all. I'm still trying to figure out her "unfinished business" excuse as well. According to H they had a couple of innocuous meetings at family gathering some twenty odd years ago. to the best of my knowledge they never dated or saw each other socially and yet her reasoning before was because she felt she had unfinished business with him????????

Seriously, she had unstarted business with him.


----------



## bankshot1993

bandit.45 said:


> No actually she has not. She has been apologizing and talking, talking, talking, but she has yet to show any movement towards working on herself.
> 
> If she was to bring Hantei receipts from her counseling sessions, showing him the books on recovering from infidelity she has been reading, abstaining from drinking, writing a letter of apology to Hantei's family, setting up a polygraph for herself, writing Hantei a timeline of the affair...stuff like that...then Hantei could SEE that she is trying to fix herself and get to the crux of her sorry-ass boundaries..
> 
> But she hasn't done any of that. She just apologizes and waits for him to tell her what to do. Hantei wants to see pro-action, not reaction.


Yes, you are correct. When said she is doing everything, I meant everything from the WS script.


----------



## bandit.45

Palodyne said:


> I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but that explanation from her is complete nonsense. So basically she leaves Hantei because this guy gives her everything Hantei can't. He is so much better. Now that he dropped her on her butt, and she comes crying home, she tells Hantei she went with Other Man because she was projecting Hantei's qualities on to him. So in her defense, Hantei was so awesome, that she had to pretend she was leaving Hantei for Hentei.
> 
> Does anyone else find this logic, for lack of a better word, comical? Sounds like she is grasping at straws to get H to take her back. Hantei, brother, you need to step back from her for a while. S*he's a grown woman, she cheated because she wanted to. She left because she wanted to. Now that she has to face the consequences of her decisions, she doesn't want to. You better make sure she has to*.


QFT.


----------



## bandit.45

bankshot1993 said:


> Yes, you are correct. When said she is doing everything, I meant everything from the WS script.


Ohhhh. Understood.


----------



## farsidejunky

bandit.45 said:


> No actually she has not. She has been apologizing and talking, talking, talking, but she has yet to show any movement towards working on herself.
> 
> If she was to bring Hantei receipts from her counseling sessions, showing him the books on recovering from infidelity she has been reading, abstaining from drinking, writing a letter of apology to Hantei's family, setting up a polygraph for herself, writing Hantei a timeline of the affair...stuff like that...then Hantei could SEE that she is trying to fix herself and get to the crux of her sorry-ass boundaries..
> 
> But she hasn't done any of that. She just apologizes and waits for him to tell her what to do. Hantei wants to see pro-action, not reaction.


Nailed it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> *Clearly he was only looking for a fling.*


And she was looking for a relationship.

And she would be in that relationship if *he* would have wanted it. He had absolute power over your marriage. 

I see absolutely no reason why she wouldn't do this to you again. She just might be more discriminating about who she does it with.


----------



## JohnA

@marduk is absolutely correct as long as the points Bandit, Farside and others have discussed. Until then she is in a regret and loss stage. Until such time as makes these changes the adultry will occur again.


----------



## eric1

bankshot1993 said:


> This right here, the what ifs, is what will be the worst thing for H in this situation. What if the posom hadn't sent H's wife packing? Would there be any remorse at all? Would she have eventually realized her wrong and come back?
> 
> 
> 
> There is no way for H to ever know because he caught it and then the OM dumped her not the other way around, she never chose H, she chose the other man. She went back to H only after the other man tossed her aside.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it was because of "the Fog" maybe it was because she was trying to "save face" or maybe it was for one of a million other reasons, none of it matters because in the end H will always have the knowledge that she chose the other man ahead of him.
> 
> 
> 
> What makes it worse is that the Other man tossed her aside so not only is H her Plan B but to reconcile he has to accept that he is taking MR Enlightened's discarded trash. This would be a pretty tough pill to swallow for anybody.
> 
> 
> 
> This all looks different if at discovery she comes out and says she F'ed up and made a mistake but she basically said the mistake was marrying H. *So how can he R knowing this? *even if they both want R how do you undo that damage?




He never ever will. She said it and her decision with it carried with it that consequence. Blame the fog, pride or whatever but we all make decisions every day with emotion tied with them. That does not absolve us of our responsibility for those decisions.

So what does this mean for H?

It means that all he can go on are actions and his own logic and emotions. She dug herself quite the hole


----------



## bandit.45

bankshot1993 said:


> This all looks different if at discovery she comes out and says she F'ed up and made a mistake *but she basically said the mistake was marrying H.* So how can he R knowing this? even if they both want R how do you undo that damage?


Yeah, there is no coming back from that. You cannot unsay that. 

Stupid woman. Like someone said before, she acts like a high schooler. No filter between her brain and mouth.


----------



## alte Dame

I suspect that H's WW would say that she saw qualities in the OM that H lacked, but also projected some of H's good qualities onto the OM, even though she had no evidence that he exhibited these good qualities.

Kind of like the Mr. Potato Head approach to finding a mate: Just pick out the features you want & stick them onto that generic body.

This unfortunately rarely works, in my experience.


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> And she was looking for a relationship.
> 
> *And she would be in that relationship if he would have wanted it. He had absolute power over your marriage.
> *
> I see absolutely no reason why she wouldn't do this to you again. She just might be more discriminating about who she does it with.


Yep, in a short few weeks she had given herself completely over to the OM. There was no hesitation, no prevarication... 

She had been wanting out of the marriage for quite a while and had it in her head to find a replacement for Hantei. 

Now that she sees how hard living on her own will be, she has backtracked from that desire. The only thing that I could see she would be able to do is maybe be one of his girlfriends after the divorce...if he wants her. But I doubt she would wait around or even try. She has demonstrated that she has no such fortitude.


----------



## bandit.45

alte Dame said:


> I suspect that H's WW would say that she saw qualities in the OM that H lacked, but also projected some of H's good qualities onto the OM, even though she had no evidence that he exhibited these good qualities.
> 
> *Kind of like the Mr. Potato Head approach to finding a mate: Just pick out the features you want & stick them onto that generic body.*
> 
> This unfortunately rarely works, in my experience.


Is that not the definition of entitlement?


----------



## sparrow55

She is obviously blowing smoke up Hentai's ass but I wouldn't really blame her for it. She is desperate for R.


----------



## bandit.45

sparrow55 said:


> *She is obviously blowing smoke up Hentai's ass* but I wouldn't really blame her for it. She is desperate for R.


Pretty much. 

If the OM changed his mind tomorrow and asked her to run away with him, the vacuum created by her lighting-quick exit from the house would implode the building.


----------



## farsidejunky

What evidence was there that she wanted out for some time? 

I think she expected H to not immediately move on from her. Then when he did, she lashed out at him by saying all of the things she saw in the OM as a way to hurt H for not "putting up" with her stepping out.

I see it as more of how an insolent teenager treats a father who is holding her accountable.

This is also a problem if I am correct, @Hantei. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike11

bandit.45 said:


> Is that not the definition of entitlement?


No Bandit, this is a definition of lack of critical thinking or in the more common name "Stupidity"


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> What evidence was there that she wanted out for some time?
> 
> I think she expected H to not immediately move on from her. *Then when he did, she lashed out at him by saying all of the things she saw in the OM as a way to hurt H for not "putting up" with her stepping out.*


I see the same vendictive quality you do.



> I see it as more of how an insolent teenager treats a father who is holding her accountable.
> 
> This is also a problem if I am correct, @Hantei.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I bet the OM didn't hold her accountable for anything.

Except getting naked, of course.


----------



## eric1

bandit.45 said:


> Yep, in a short few weeks she had given herself completely over to the OM. There was no hesitation, no prevarication...
> 
> 
> 
> She had been wanting out of the marriage for quite a while and had it in her head to find a replacement for Hantei.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that she sees how hard living on her own will be, she has backtracked from that desire. The only thing that I could see she would be able to do is maybe be one of his girlfriends after the divorce...if he wants her. But I doubt she would wait around or even try. She has demonstrated that she has no such fortitude.




To be fair wasn't she kind of breaking it off and the VM that H intercepted was the OM trying to get back into her pants?


----------



## Marduk

eric1 said:


> To be fair wasn't she kind of breaking it off and the VM that H intercepted was the OM trying to get back into her pants?


After he made it clear it was just a fling.


----------



## eric1

I might be mistaken but didn't the have sex twice with the last time being like a month prior? In retrospect that she was disengaging (but obviously still tied to him in some way). Then once she was found out, via the voice mail that was ostensibly left by him as a way to get into her pants, she made the dumb decision to tell H that it was over anyhow.

I get so confused with these stories. Honestly the cheater script is so damn predictable that they all start to blend together.


----------



## Decorum

alte Dame said:


> I suspect that H's WW would say that she saw qualities in the OM that H lacked, but also projected some of H's good qualities onto the OM, even though she had no evidence that he exhibited these good qualities.
> 
> Kind of like the Mr. Potato Head approach to finding a mate: Just pick out the features you want & stick them onto that generic body.
> 
> This unfortunately rarely works, in my experience.


Classic!! The Mr. Potato Head approach. Stealing that. Ha ha ha.
How can you not love that little guy after you put him together yourself. :rofl:

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TDSC60

eric1 said:


> To be fair wasn't she kind of breaking it off and the VM that H intercepted was the OM trying to get back into her pants?


Maybe I am getting confused over the timeline. I thought that Hentai found the voicemail and almost immediately confronted her. She cried and said "I am sorry for hurting you this way H, but I have to move on." Then spewed all the crap about the kind of man she needed which Hentai was not. Basically telling that him the type of man she wanted to move on with was someone who had qualities that he did not have.

It was not until she went to OM and said she was leaving Hentai for him that OM told her that he was an "enlightened, modern guy" and he was of the opinion that having sex outside of marriage was the accepted norm in his modern world and he never meant for her to leave the marriage. Basically telling her they had no future together other than friends with benefits.

At this point she began to feel out Hentai about fixing the marriage. But she is still hesitant because she does not think Hentai can get over her f*cking OM - twice. Wonder why?


----------



## bandit.45

farsidejunky said:


> What evidence was there that she wanted out for some time?
> 
> I think she expected H to not immediately move on from her. Then when he did, she lashed out at him by saying all of the things she saw in the OM as a way to hurt H for not "putting up" with her stepping out.
> 
> I see it as more of how an insolent teenager treats a father who is holding her accountable.
> 
> This is also a problem if I am correct, @Hantei.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I'm just speculating, given the short amount of time it took her to allow the OM to sweep her off her feet, unless I am mistaken about the timeline. 

Its so damned hard keeping track of all these threads because they are almost cookie-cutter in their similarity.


----------



## bandit.45

Mike11 said:


> No Bandit, this is a definition of lack of critical thinking or in the more common name "Stupidity"


I would argue they are one in the same. Entitled cheaters are usually stupid cheaters.


----------



## bandit.45

eric1 said:


> To be fair wasn't she kind of breaking it off and the VM that H intercepted was the OM trying to get back into her pants?


You may be right. I guess I need to go back through the thread again. Like I said, I can't keep these stories straight in my head anymore. They all kind of meld into one.


----------



## Hantei

alte Dame said:


> This does sound very high school to me. I am always astounded at the fantasy associated with this. I wasn't even like this in hs. You've got an immature girl on your hands, H.


Correct. That is what you get if you build an ivory tower - a princess. Lesson learned.



alte Dame said:


> I suspect that H's WW would say that she saw qualities in the OM that H lacked, but also projected some of H's good qualities onto the OM, even though she had no evidence that he exhibited these good qualities.
> 
> Kind of like the Mr. Potato Head approach to finding a mate: Just pick out the features you want & stick them onto that generic body.
> 
> This unfortunately rarely works, in my experience.


That is very accurate, thanks for clarifying things for me (no sarcasm here). She saw him more enigmatic, cheerful and emotional than me. Like the basis (Hantei) + delta. She saw the delta and assumed the basis is there as well. So she assumed that he'll give her full support and commitment based on the fact that she new I'd do the same (I asked her earlier does she also think I'd ruin somebody's marriage) . Anyway he bailed and she realised the basis is not there.


----------



## Hantei

Very true. I'm not a great speaker/writer (not enigmatic and emotional enough I guess).



TDSC60 said:


> Maybe I am getting confused over the timeline. I thought that Hentai found the voicemail and almost immediately confronted her. She cried and said "I am sorry for hurting you this way H, but I have to move on." Then spewed all the crap about the kind of man she needed which Hentai was not. Basically telling that him the type of man she wanted to move on with was someone who had qualities that he did not have.
> 
> It was not until she went to OM and said she was leaving Hentai for him that OM told her that he was an "enlightened, modern guy" and he was of the opinion that having sex outside of marriage was the accepted norm in his modern world and he never meant for her to leave the marriage. Basically telling her they had no future together other than friends with benefits.
> 
> At this point she began to feel out Hentai about fixing the marriage. But she is still hesitant because she does not think Hentai can get over her f*cking OM - twice. Wonder why?


----------



## TDSC60

The questions of why she did this does not really matter at this point unless Hantei wants to try R. The reality is that she chose another man for her future, slept with him, told Hantei that he was not the man of her dreams and she was moving on with her dream guy. If OM had accepted her as she thought he would, she would be long gone.


----------



## sparrow55

I don't think she will run back to OM.Reality trashed her pretty bad the last time


----------



## alte Dame

TDSC60 said:


> The questions of why she did this does not really matter at this point unless Hantei wants to try R. The reality is that she chose another man for her future, slept with him, told Hantei that he was not the man of her dreams and she was moving on with her dream guy. If OM had accepted her as she thought he would, she would be long gone.


I agree.


----------



## turnera

Hantei, the most moving thread I've ever seen was from a man whose wife cheated. Not sure if the thread was true or not, but he put her up in an apartment a few miles from him and the family. She stayed there for a year, living penance, waiting to see if she'd have a second chance. 

The one thing I've always said to BSs is that if you don't see true humility from your wayward, you will almost certainly be cheated on again, because it's all a front.

Living in an apartment, all alone, for a year, waiting to see if he'd give her a second chance? Don't get more humble than that.

I've also always said that it's easy to put up a front for a month or three. It's when you wait and see if they're still as remorseful a year later that you know they really mean it. 

Proceed with the divorce. If she still really wants her life back (minus the financial security of being your wife and splitting all assets), you'll know in a year. There's no need to move faster than that; this is the rest of your life we're talking about. 

Let her prove herself, with NOTHING from you other than an occasional date, for the next year. If she hasn't morphed into the typical "why can't you just get over it?" diva, you may have a chance.


----------



## ing

How does desire look. How does empathy look How does love look. It is in the eyes. 

The most painful thing I have ever seen is the cold hard eyes of my former wife. In a moment shut out of a shared life and the future it held. You have seen it too.

You already know from her eyes how she feels about you. If that has not changed then nothing has changed. regardless of her words or even her actions.


----------



## becareful

turnera said:


> Hantei, the most moving thread I've ever seen was from a man whose wife cheated. Not sure if the thread was true or not, but he put her up in an apartment a few miles from him and the family. She stayed there for a year, living penance, waiting to see if she'd have a second chance.


Hi,

Do you know where that thread is? I'd like to read it.


----------



## turnera

No, but I remember his name had "kingwood" in it. I remember because that's near where I live.


----------



## Absurdist

turnera said:


> No, but I remember his name had "kingwood" in it. I remember because that's near where I live.


KingwoodKev. He was a suspected troll with multiple accounts. Banned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

I think the threat that @turnera is referencing is much older than that. If I remember correctly, it is from several years ago.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Nucking Futs

farsidejunky said:


> I think the threat that @turnera is referencing is much older than that. If I remember correctly, it is from several years ago.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yeah, it's an older thread, not kingwoodkev.


----------



## Graywolf2

Hantei said:


> She saw him (OM) as more enigmatic, cheerful and emotional than me. Like the basis (Hantei) + delta. She saw the delta and assumed the basis is there as well. So she assumed that he'll give her full support and commitment based on the fact that she new I'd do the same (*I asked her earlier does she also think I'd ruin somebody's marriage*) . Anyway he bailed and she realised the basis is not there.


*That’s a great question. What did your wife answer? * 

People self-select. For example people who donate blood tend to be nice people as a group. Of course you have some stinkers in there but you would tend to find a higher percentage of nice people than the general population. The same goes with people that cheat. As a group you would tend to find a higher percent of certain qualities.


----------



## HEIDI84

@-->----


----------



## Absurdist

Nucking Futs said:


> Yeah, it's an older thread, not kingwoodkev.


Well, Tunera references "Kingwood" in her post and that was Kingwood's story (tale?). He kept his WW in a small house he paid for but he had nothing to do with her.

I suspected he was an under the bridge dweller after the first few posts in his thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

sparrow55 said:


> I don't think she will run back to OM.Reality trashed her pretty bad the last time


I don't think she will run to that OM. 

But since nothing has fundamentally changed since she decided to have another man to begin with, I see no reason to think she won't find another.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert

turnera said:


> No, but I remember his name had "kingwood" in it. I remember because that's near where I live.


Kingwood, WVa?


----------



## turnera

Absurdist said:


> Well, Tunera references "Kingwood" in her post and that was Kingwood's story (tale?). He kept his WW in a small house he paid for but he had nothing to do with her.
> 
> I suspected he was an under the bridge dweller after the first few posts in his thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's why I said I didn't know if it was true or not. But the point was that this woman was REALLY sorry and willing to wait and see if he would take her back. That's the kind of remorse and humility I personally would have to see from my spouse for me to be willing to consider R.


----------



## JohnA

@turnera are you thinking of DKT and lovingDKT3 on LS?


----------



## turnera

No, it was the kingwood guy, cos like I said, that's my neighborhood.


----------



## Hantei

farsidejunky said:


> What evidence was there that she wanted out for some time?
> 
> I think she expected H to not immediately move on from her....





eric1 said:


> To be fair wasn't she kind of breaking it off and the VM that H intercepted was the OM trying to get back into her pants?...
> I might be mistaken but didn't the have sex twice with the last time being like a month prior?...





TDSC60 said:


> I thought that Hentai found the voicemail and almost immediately confronted her. She cried and said "I am sorry for hurting you this way H, but I have to move on." Then spewed all the crap about the kind of man she needed which Hentai was not. Basically telling that him the type of man she wanted to move on with was someone who had qualities that he did not have.
> ...


I have shortened the quotes but bascially the above is accurate. In summary and in addition to the above:
- It does look very likely to me that she was breaking off - or I'd rather say was not willing to continue - when I caught her. And turned to him only after got busted. I decided not to use "I beleive" because its hard to beleive in anything, but it is collaborated by the info I have and her constant and persistent attempts to undo the damage.
- It does look very likely to me that she was not actually feeling choked in the marriage and she never said she was wanting out for 2 years. That she's said these things as she explains now as some sort of knee-jerk-trying-to-save-face reaction when caught.
- I do not think she'd run with the SOB if he gave her the opportunity (although she'd likely to continue being in contact with him for some time). I'm certain if he surfaces today she won't run with him either.
- As @ing wrote I do see remorse and guilt in her eyes and behaviour. May not be as text book as @bandit.45 or others suggested but she's really out of herslef trying to find out the way. You all may not agree and (rightfully) point me out to apparent flaws in her characters - and you may not be wrong, I'm just processing the info I have ATM.

But lets, say averyting above is not by precepetion but the reality. Anyway, as per the quote below...



TDSC60 said:


> The questions of why she did this does not really matter at this point unless Hantei wants to try R. The reality is that she chose another man for her future, slept with him, told Hantei that he was not the man of her dreams and she was moving on with her dream guy. If OM had accepted her as she thought he would, she would be long gone.


... it does not really mater. She did what she did - and even if I have 100% of assurance she is going to be amodel wife from now on and be able and willing to fulfill 100% of my "requirements" (even if I knew what they are) - I would only be able to say to myself "OK she f%$%$#ed the other man and what has actually changed now"? Nothing. It does not really matter.

In some sort of a twisted way I'd wish this was either a drinken ONS or really a true love and she was intending to move on with SOB. This would make sens to me and make thing easier. Unfortunately it is what it is - an immature fling that destroyed at least 3 people.


----------



## Hantei

Graywolf2 said:


> *That’s a great question. What did your wife answer? *
> .


What she could answer. That I wouldn't do it and she was an idiot thinking the the SOB would show any sort of moral or dignity AFTER sleeping with a married woman


----------



## Hantei

HEIDI84 said:


> @-->----


 @HEIDI84 - sorry not sure what does that mean (if addressed to me)?


----------



## HEIDI84

Hantei said:


> @HEIDI84 - sorry not sure what does that mean (if addressed to me)?


Sorry accidentally posted didn't know how to erase it

@-->----


----------



## Hantei

Thanks @turnera,

Real thread or not (couldn't find it) I thik this a great way forward. No because I'm making a decision to follow this path based on some pro's and con's - just because it is happening anyway - sort of naturally and time is on my side.

She's stated numerous times that that is what she's going to do - be a mother to our son and wait 1st 10 months till we can file for divorce (I made it clear nothing is going to change in that department) and for whatever time after that for a 2nd chance. 

I beleive she's honest in saying that. It is another matter entirely that I also beleive she won't last. Simply because it is unrealistic (and perhaps that is why that thread was labeled as fake). She is an attractive woman and will not want to spend potentially years of her life in self imposed celibate when the positive outcome is far from being guaranteed.

Couple of days ago her father wanted to meet me (no word from MIL BTW). I refused - there is really nothing to say or discuss ATM. As an aftermath yesterday I had a chat with a person who I call a "trusted 3rd party". The relevant part of this conversation is that she (STBXW) is already getting support, hugs and vibes "the life is not over, move on, you are great, you will meet someone else". In particular I know that - while theyr
are not talking - MIL has made some remarks that the way I'm handling this and "treating her girl" show that she was right about me 20+ years ago.

Add to that the fact that during this "wait period" and - if we R - for some time after that I won't be a happy and enigmatic bloke anyway - and I think I'd require a super human effort from her to last.


----------



## Hantei

HEIDI84 said:


> Sorry accidentally posted didn't know how to erase it
> 
> @-->----


Not problem, just realized it looks like a flower?


----------



## HEIDI84

Hantei said:


> Not problem, just realized it looks like a flower?


Yes lol it's a rose 

@-->----


----------



## bandit.45

There is a lot said here on TAM about levelling consequences against the wayward for their adultery. But in reality, no such thing is possible. You cannot "punish" a wayward, especially a remorseless one. Many times the wayward wants out of the marriage anyway, so nothing the BS does to exact a pound of flesh from their WS really works out. The only punishment a wayward usually suffers is a temporary diminishment of reputation, but these days reputations heal pretty quickly, especially if the wayward hangs out with enabling friends and family. 

Divorce is really the only thing any BS can do to levy any kind of hard toll on the person who betrayed them. 

That is why R is so hard. The betrayed spouse gets to eat the sh!t sandwich for the rest of his life. He gets humiliation, hurt, devastation, emasculation, embarrassment, mind movies, depression, anxiety, uncertainty, paranoia. The wayward gets to have fun sex, freedom, fantasy and all the good stuff. He or she may have to endure a couple of years of guilt and public scrutiny, but if they have a forgiving spouse they essentially lose nothing in the deal except the BS's trust....which they never valued in the first place. 

Any BS who chooses to R is a brave, sacrificing soul.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hantei said:


> @HEIDI84 - sorry not sure what does that mean (if addressed to me)?


Kinda looks like a flower.


----------



## Marc878

*MIL has made some remarks that the way I'm handling this and "treating her girl" show that she was right about me 20+ years ago.*

MIL is probably a cheater I'd bet


----------



## Marc878

*Couple of days ago her father wanted to meet me*

What's her father like? Your past relationship with him?


----------



## Archangel2

turnera said:


> That's why I said I didn't know if it was true or not. But the point was that this woman was REALLY sorry and willing to wait and see if he would take her back. That's the kind of remorse and humility I personally would have to see from my spouse for me to be willing to consider R.


I believe it was Kingswood Kev. He also posted on SI as Houston Dad (?) but later took himself off that site (per him) voluntarily. I believe I had read somewhere on this site that he was banned for anger issues (?).

Anyway, I agree with your statement.


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> *MIL has made some remarks that the way I'm handling this and "treating her girl" show that she was right about me 20+ years ago.*
> 
> MIL is probably a cheater I'd bet


Either that (I don't know) or perhaps so self absorbed she doesn't need to cheat to screw people's life's. 



Marc878 said:


> *Couple of days ago her father wanted to meet me*
> 
> What's her father like? Your past relationship with him?


He was not a bad bloke, it is just my relationship with her family was cordial but distant. I never went fishing with him so to speak. Of course now I'm reviewing his role.


----------



## Palodyne

Your MIL is a Mega B1tch. Your WW should recognize this by now, especially with her pushing another man, that turned out to be a piece of trash, into your family life to destroy it. If your WW doesn't recognize this, and is not willing to put the time and effort into waiting to see if this can be repaired. Then she is her mothers daughter, and you are better off without her.

Move on with the divorce, and make her prove herself. If she is so shallow that she moves on to other men, then you have dodged a bullet. Start dating again, once you are divorced, and find yourself a healthy, happy, woman to marry and build a new life. It will be her lose not yours.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> Thanks @turnera,
> 
> Real thread or not (couldn't find it) I thik this a great way forward. No because I'm making a decision to follow this path based on some pro's and con's - just because it is happening anyway - sort of naturally and time is on my side.
> 
> She's stated numerous times that that is what she's going to do - be a mother to our son and wait 1st 10 months till we can file for divorce (I made it clear nothing is going to change in that department) and for whatever time after that for a 2nd chance.
> 
> I beleive she's honest in saying that. It is another matter entirely that I also beleive she won't last. Simply because it is unrealistic (and perhaps that is why that thread was labeled as fake). She is an attractive woman and will not want to spend potentially years of her life in self imposed celibate when the positive outcome is far from being guaranteed.
> 
> Couple of days ago her father wanted to meet me (no word from MIL BTW). I refused - there is really nothing to say or discuss ATM. As an aftermath yesterday I had a chat with a person who I call a "trusted 3rd party". The relevant part of this conversation is that she (STBXW) is already getting support, hugs and vibes "the life is not over, move on, you are great, you will meet someone else". In particular I know that - while theyr
> are not talking - MIL has made some remarks that the way I'm handling this and "treating her girl" show that she was right about me 20+ years ago.
> 
> Add to that the fact that during this "wait period" and - if we R - for some time after that I won't be a happy and enigmatic bloke anyway - and I think I'd require a super human effort from her to last.


She will get what she earns. 

It really is that simple.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

Guess I'm not brave and or sacrificing enough. Guess 20+ years of hard work and commitment do require a sacrifice on top.

Anyway I may be unable to wrap it in words but I think in terms that are close to what you have posted. 

I know it should be natural to be angry about certain things (and I am) but one particular thing that's very hard if not impossible to get over is those weeks when I was certain my son is going to live with or at least be introduced to the SOB.

Not going to happen now but these weeks will probably be my worst nightmare for a while if not forever.





bandit.45 said:


> There is a lot said here on TAM about levelling consequences against the wayward for their adultery. But in reality, no such thing is possible. You cannot "punish" a wayward, especially a remorseless one. Many times the wayward wants out of the marriage anyway, so nothing the BS does to exact a pound of flesh from their WS really works out. The only punishment a wayward usually suffers is a temporary diminishment of reputation, but these days reputations heal pretty quickly, especially if the wayward hangs out with enabling friends and family.
> 
> Divorce is really the only thing any BS can do to levy any kind of hard toll on the person who betrayed them.
> 
> That is why R is so hard. The betrayed spouse gets to eat the sh!t sandwich for the rest of his life. He gets humiliation, hurt, devastation, emasculation, embarrassment, mind movies, depression, anxiety, uncertainty, paranoia. The wayward gets to have fun sex, freedom, fantasy and all the good stuff. He or she may have to endure a couple of years of guilt and public scrutiny, but if they have a forgiving spouse they essentially lose nothing in the deal except the BS's trust....which they never valued in the first place.
> 
> Any BS who chooses to R is a brave, sacrificing soul.


----------



## bandit.45

I'm not brave or sacrificing either.


----------



## TaDor

It can always be worse.


----------



## Hantei

One of the tests she's facing now (which may give me some indication she's a real deal) is if she realises that negative influence from MIL and moves out of there. 

If she does it on her own - this will not be a meaningless "I'm sorry".

If she keeps breathing MIL's way of looking at things and continue to be a subscriber to her "I was right move on" channel I really don't need to wait till she moves on.

Not holding my breath.





Palodyne said:


> Your MIL is a Mega B1tch. Your WW should recognize this by now, especially with her pushing another man, that turned out to be a piece of trash, into your family life to destroy it. If your WW doesn't recognize this, and is not willing to put the time and effort into waiting to see if this can be repaired. Then she is her mothers daughter, and you are better off without her.
> 
> Move on with the divorce, and make her prove herself. If she is so shallow that she moves on to other men, then you have dodged a bullet. Start dating again, once you are divorced, and find yourself a healthy, happy, woman to marry and build a new life. It will be her lose not yours.





farsidejunky said:


> She will get what she earns.
> 
> It really is that simple.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Decorum

Hantei said:


> One of the tests she's facing now (which may give me some indication she's a real deal) is if she realises that negative influence from MIL and moves out of there.
> 
> If she does it on her own - this will not be a meaningless "I'm sorry".
> 
> If she keeps breathing MIL's way of looking at things and continue to be a subscriber to her "I was right move on" channel I really don't need to wait till she moves on.
> 
> Not holding my breath.


I suppose you know about the MIL's attitude (I was right move on) because your wife told you, is that so?

And when you asked your wife what her perspective is with regard to what her mother said her response was?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sparrow55

> The relevant part of this conversation is that she (STBXW) is already getting support, hugs and vibes "the life is not over, move on, you are great, you will meet someone else". In particular I know that - while theyr
> are not talking - MIL has made some remarks that the way I'm handling this and "treating her girl" show that she was right about me 20+ years ago.


What do you think about this ? I obviously do not know your wife but do you think she has in it to wait sometime irrespective of what people around her tell her ? What kind of person is she ?

MIL using this situation to make this a "I told you so" situation is just lowest of the low.


----------



## bankshot1993

H, I'm just sort of wondering why you don't want to meet with the FIL. IT may be a good chance for you to get your side know and filter out selected information as well as getting some intel on what is going on in the MIL's house.

I know it goes against the whole 180 thing but seeing that your in contact on a near daily basis anyway it's already sort of a modified 180. Could it really hurt just to get a different perspective?


----------



## Hantei

Decorum said:


> I suppose you know about the MIL's attitude (I was right move on) because your wife told you, is that so?


Not exactly, this came from another person (which I can tryst to a degree), not the STBXW. As far as I can tell they (STBXW and MIL) do not comunicate a lot these days, so these were some sort of "open ramrks" from MIL.



Decorum said:


> And when you asked your wife what her perspective is with regard to what her mother said her response was?


I did not ask my STBXW because of the above but in general she claims she is going to minimise interactions wih MILL irrespectively from how our marriage and relationship ends because it is just... well.. bad.




sparrow55 said:


> What do you think about this ? I obviously do not know your wife but do you think she has in it to wait sometime irrespective of what people around her tell her ? What kind of person is she ?
> MIL using this situation to make this a "I told you so" situation is just lowest of the low.


Look I'm probbaly going to repeat the words thousands of guys in my positions were telling before me: "I don't know this woman anynmore". The one I used to know would "wait" and will block and ingnore any external influence that would not support that. In fact she's done it before. But the one I used to know won't cheat either. So now when my pink glasses are off, I think the most likely scenario is: she will wait and do everyting she could and try hard for a little while. Then with no progress or positive response she will grow tired and with constant support from family in friends (who want the best for her and will not want her to be in misery for too long) she will move on... and I won't blame her.




bankshot1993 said:


> H, I'm just sort of wondering why you don't want to meet with the FIL. IT may be a good chance for you to get your side know and filter out selected information as well as getting some intel on what is going on in the MIL's house.
> 
> I know it goes against the whole 180 thing but seeing that your in contact on a near daily basis anyway it's already sort of a modified 180. Could it really hurt just to get a different perspective?


It won't hurt but frankly I see no or lottle value in meeting him. Realistically, what can he say? He is sorry for what has happened but she is his daughter 1st and foremost.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Palodyne said:


> Your MIL is a Mega B1tch. Your WW should recognize this by now, especially with her pushing another man, that turned out to be a piece of trash, into your family life to destroy it. If your WW doesn't recognize this, and is not willing to put the time and effort into waiting to see if this can be repaired. Then she is her mothers daughter, and you are better off without her.
> 
> Move on with the divorce, and make her prove herself. If she is so shallow that she moves on to other men, then you have dodged a bullet. Start dating again, once you are divorced, and find yourself a healthy, happy, woman to marry and build a new life. It will be her lose not yours.


Palodyne has hit the nail on the head sir. She is as shallow as a teaspoon full of water from what I have read from your posts.

p


----------



## Decorum

Hantei said:


> One of the tests she's facing now (which may give me some indication she's a real deal) is if she realises that negative influence from MIL and moves out of there.
> 
> If she does it on her own - this will not be a meaningless "I'm sorry".
> 
> If she keeps breathing MIL's way of looking at things and continue to be a subscriber to her "I was right move on" channel I really don't need to wait till she moves on.
> 
> Not holding my breath.





Hantei said:


> Not exactly, this came from another person (which I can tryst to a degree), not the STBXW. As far as I can tell they (STBXW and MIL) do not comunicate a lot these days, so these were some sort of "open ramrks" from MIL.
> 
> 
> 
> I did not ask my STBXW because of the above but in general she claims she is going to minimise interactions wih MILL irrespectively from how our marriage and relationship ends because it is just... well.. bad.


Hantei, 
Can you read the two quotes above and see why they make you look like a covert contract, passive aggressive fool?

I am not saying you are, but unless there is some reasonable explanation, it cant be taken off the table either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Being in a marriage with dual loyalties is hard. Failure to stand up for a spouse (especially if unwarrented) is a hard blow to overcome. The conversation your 3rd party shared, did your wife stand up for you? Did she point out how wrong her mother was about you?


----------



## Tron

Hantei said:


> Not exactly, this came from another person (which I can tryst to a degree), not the STBXW. As far as I can tell they (STBXW and MIL) do not comunicate a lot these days, so these were some sort of "open ramrks" from MIL.
> 
> I did not ask my STBXW because of the above but in general she claims she is going to minimise interactions wih MILL irrespectively from how our marriage and relationship ends because it is just... well.. bad.


Are you talking to your STBXW at all?




Hantei said:


> Look I'm probbaly going to repeat the words thousands of guys in my positions were telling before me: "I don't know this woman anynmore". The one I used to know would "wait" and will block and ingnore any external influence that would not support that. In fact she's done it before. But the one I used to know won't cheat either. So now when my pink glasses are off, I think the most likely scenario is: she will wait and do everyting she could and try hard for a little while. Then with no progress or positive response she will grow tired and with constant support from family in friends (who want the best for her and will not want her to be in misery for too long) she will move on... and I won't blame her.


If she is trying, how would you know?

And when staring into the face of no hope, what would you do? 

If her moving heaven and earth to be with you is pointless, then save her the trouble and tell her to move on. 




Hantei said:


> It won't hurt but frankly I see no or lottle value in meeting him. Realistically, what can he say? He is sorry for what has happened but she is his daughter 1st and foremost.


Maybe I am wrong, but it seems that you and your STBX aren't communicating much if at all. Presumably she is talking to him. He may be trying to be a bridge.


----------



## Montana79

How about telling your STBXW that while you are making no promises regarding R, she has less than ZERO chance of that as long as she is listening to your MIL badmouth you.

BTW, add me to the list of people who thinks you should talk to your FIL. What can it hurt? And it's possible it could help somehow. He knows his wife better than anyone. And he probably knows how toxic she has been, and continues to be.


----------



## TDSC60

Talk to FIL. Just listen to what he says. Don't try to justify your actions to him or discuss options of the future.
You don't know what he has to say. Even if it is "I am ashamed of what she did, but bottom line is that she is my daughter", you can ignore him.
On the other hand, he may have something to say that you need to know.
Can't hurt and will only cost you a few minutes.


----------



## Hantei

Decorum said:


> Hantei,
> Can you read the two quotes above and see why they make you look like a covert contract, passive aggressive fool?


No, I can not.


----------



## Hantei

Tron said:


> Are you talking to your STBXW at all?


.

I do but mostly in 180 way. All "I'm sorry " and "Let's R" talk comes from her. Please understand the difference: I can vent and play "what if" mind games here - my "virtual sandbox" but I am separating and divorcing, so not going to give a hope of R until (if ever) I'm internally ready. And if it is too late - so be it.

I have to communicate with her as we are co-parenting, son needs her and that was the separation model I agree with. 



Tron said:


> If she is trying, how would you know?


She is trying within the above framework and I notice. If or when this changes my position I'll let her know. I was and am very open with her when it comes my the intent.





Tron said:


> And when staring into the face of no hope, what would you do?
> 
> If her moving heaven and earth to be with you is pointless, then save her the trouble and tell her to move on.


I'd move on and expect her to do so, which I've made very clear to her. All "I'll wait forever comes from her.




Tron said:


> Maybe I am wrong, but it seems that you and your STBX aren't communicating much if at all. Presumably she is talking to him. He may be trying to be a bridge.


You are not wrong -see above. Correct - likely they have sent him as an envoy. I'll address this later.


----------



## Marc878

@Hantie ,

It sounds like you've decided to divorce no matter what? Then reevaluate whether she's worthy of something after the divorce is complete?

I would have to say that's not a bad idea if that's your intentions.


----------



## farsidejunky

@Hantei:

Is it the situation/circumstances that is leading to you seeing the divorce through, or is it the that you are not willing to consider R based on principles?

Or both?

You spend a lot of time discussing the mechanics and the tangibles. That said, I am having a hard time getting a read on your emotional state. You have mentioned in passing that you are in pain a couple of times, and I have to assume you are still crushed, brother.

The only thing I would encourage you to thoroughly explore and consider is to make sure you are not following through on the divorce due to vengeance. While the line may be blurry at times, there is a stark difference between consequences, which are designed to teach, and vengeance, which is designed to punish without regard to anything else.

Just my $0.02, brother.


----------



## Marc878

FIL is trying to reach out on WW's behalf probably because he's is not committing to anything. 


They are having a hard time understanding why Hantei hasn't jumped through hoops to stay in "the elite upper crust family". These types always misjudge because they think everyone is in awe of them. 


Time will tell if she's serious. If she is she'll wait. If she is shallow and full of BS it will show. Not a bad test to determine whether it's a waste of his time. If this is the case.

It's only been @ 2 months so take your time and wait until you are assured of what action you want to take. If any.

Time will tell you much here.


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> @Hantie ,
> 
> It sounds like you've decided to divorce no matter what? Then reevaluate whether she's worthy of something after the divorce is complete?
> 
> I would have to say that's not a bad idea if that's your intentions.


That is correct. I've stated this here, I've made it clear to her And she has accepted (at least in the surface). I'd be divorced (filed) tomorrow if I could but have to wait approx 10 months.


----------



## Hantei

I agree 100%. I'll add some extra info later- I'm physically not in the most convenient place to type.

Once again you are accurate here. 




Marc878 said:


> FIL is trying to reach out on WW's behalf probably because he's is not committing to anything.
> 
> 
> They are having a hard time understanding why Hantei hasn't jumped through hoops to stay in "the elite upper crust family". These types always misjudge because they think everyone is in awe of them.
> 
> 
> Time will tell if she's serious. If she is she'll wait. If she is shallow and full of BS it will show. Not a bad test to determine whether it's a waste of his time. If this is the case.
> 
> It's only been @ 2 months so take your time and wait until you are assured of what action you want to take. If any.
> 
> Time will tell you much here.


----------



## Marc878

I've not seen this before but hey if he ever does decide R is acceptable the chance of success has got to be higher than normal. I like it.

Most jump right into R thinking "I've won, I've won!!!!! Then later it's how fvcking stupid was I?


----------



## Marc878

This methodology also sends a very strong message. 

I'm good without you if it comes to that and this gift is something you'd better take care of because there will never be another.

It also give the wayward time in limbo which should be a good lesson in consequences.

I wouldn't be affraid of losing her. You already have once. If she can't stick it out you have saved yourself the pain and aggravation of having to go through R with someone who isn't committed enough anyway.


----------



## Hantei

In not sure I fully understand your leading question but your are correct with the rest. Let me attempt to explain.

- I am in pain and crushed. I can not describe the bond and happiness we've been enjoying for20+ years so yeah it's tough. I'm just not crying on her (180) and anyone else's shoulder. Never was. No point of writing it each and any time here either (make no mistake this community was and is a great support. I'm just saying I'm not wired this way). Thanks for asking, gives me chance to express it though.

- I'm not vengeful towards her. I am vengeful in general but not towards her (I could've done a lot of things if I wanted). I just came to conclusion that divorce is the one and only way forward for me. If we won't be in R - than its no brainer, we will have to part ways and divorce is just a legality. If we R - it will be the mandatory (and likely not sufficient) way for me to realise that I'm not a plan B and a doormat. 


Let me know if you see logic in this.



farsidejunky said:


> @Hantei
> 
> Is it the situation/circumstances that is leading to you seeing the divorce through, or is it the that you are not willing to consider R based on principles?
> 
> Or both?
> 
> You spend a lot of time discussing the mechanics and the tangibles. That said, I am having a hard time getting a read on your emotional state. You have mentioned in passing that you are in pain a couple of times, and I have to assume you are still crushed, brother.
> 
> The only thing I would encourage you to thoroughly explore and consider is to make sure you are not following through on the divorce due to vengeance. While the line may be blurry at times, there is a stark difference between consequences, which are designed to teach, and vengeance, which is designed to punish without regard to anything else.
> 
> Just my $0.02, brother.


----------



## Marc878

I like it !!!!!!!

Mandatory divorce. No R. Maybe a new marriage after if she can get/keep it together.

Makes perfect sense since she destroyed the old marriage anyway.

So there is no need to talk about it. FIL is irrelevant. Wow, got it.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> In not sure I fully understand your leading question but your are correct with the rest. Let me attempt to explain.
> 
> - I am in pain and crushed. I can not describe the bond and happiness we've been enjoying for20+ years so yeah it's tough. I'm just not crying on her (180) and anyone else's shoulder. Never was. No point of writing it each and any time here either (make no mistake this community was and is a great support. I'm just saying I'm not wired this way). Thanks for asking, gives me chance to express it though.
> 
> - I'm not vengeful towards her. I am vengeful in general but not towards her (I could've done a lot of things if I wanted). I just came to conclusion that divorce is the one and only way forward for me. If we won't be in R - than its no brainer, we will have to part ways and divorce is just a legality. If we R - it will be the mandatory (and likely not sufficient) way for me to realise that I'm not a plan B and a doormat.
> 
> 
> Let me know if you see logic in this.


Thanks for that, brother. I would imagine that she very much sees you the same way: cold, aloof, focused on the mechanics. I bet she knows your marriage was good, knows how you can be, and seeing you like this is hammering home even more so what she has done. 

My initial question phrased another way:

Are you divorcing because of who you are or because of what she did. 

I think you answered this in your last post. 

I am not going to lie, @Hantei. I am a sucker for a good R story. I find myself wanting to see R from y'all until my thoughts come back to her toxic family/MIL. I simply don't see how it is possible with them/her in her life.

Thanks again for getting uncomfortable in that last post.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

farsidejunky said:


> Thanks for that, brother. I would imagine that she very much sees you the same way: cold, aloof, focused on the mechanics. I bet she knows your marriage was good, knows how you can be, and seeing you like this is hammering home even more so what she has done.
> 
> My initial question phrased another way:
> 
> Are you divorcing because of who you are or because of what she did.
> 
> I think you answered this in your last post.
> 
> I am not going to lie, @Hantei. I am a sucker for a good R story. I find myself wanting to see R from *y'all* until my thoughts come back to her toxic family/MIL. I simply don't see how it is possible with them/her in her life.
> 
> Thanks again for getting uncomfortable in that last post.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Ha!!! Sauth and Nauth Calina heah, bro


----------



## Hantei

There is a lot of truth in your 1st paragraph. I have instantly switched to that "cold and calculating" mode which is not foreign to me but totally opposite to what I was like with her. She mentioned this couple of times before and during separation- she said she is shocked by the speed of my conversion. My f...ing defence mechanism perhaps.

When it comes to R... let me say from the stories I read here I like happy ending ones. Not that there are plenty. Look, many people sent me PM's here suggesting I shouldn't rule it out. I'll respond in the same way: apart from the fact that divorce is imminent, I'm not ruling it out yet, but my STBXW and everyone around her need to be on the same page with regards to where we all are and what is my position. 

As I mentioned I will adress this later. For now I'll just say that following my refusal to meet FIL I've received a long email from him and I'm certain we are not on the same page. 





farsidejunky said:


> Thanks for that, brother. I would imagine that she very much sees you the same way: cold, aloof, focused on the mechanics. I bet she knows your marriage was good, knows how you can be, and seeing you like this is hammering home even more so what she has done.
> 
> My initial question phrased another way:
> 
> Are you divorcing because of who you are or because of what she did.
> 
> I think you answered this in your last post.
> 
> I am not going to lie, @Hantei. I am a sucker for a good R story. I find myself wanting to see R from y'all until my thoughts come back to her toxic family/MIL. I simply don't see how it is possible with them/her in her life.
> 
> Thanks again for getting uncomfortable in that last post.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Be smart

My friend you wrote about "commitment and sacrifice for 20 plus years" but what about your wife??? She knew all of this just like you,but she decide to have Affair no matter what. 

Your wife only cries and talk about R but lets be honest here,what did she do to make you belive in all of this??? She didnt make an appointment for Marriage Counseling or Individual counseling,she didnt write a timeline for you,she didnt move out of her mothers house...

There is more-why do you belive her she is in No Contact with OM or she is not talking with her mother about him,her future and what it could be with him or thrash talking you??? Dont trust her when she says all of this.

It is geting worse-her excuse for saying things like OM is better man then you are is for high school,not for a grow up woman and mother.

You said you are concerned if she goes and live alone in apartment and she will not wait for you and stay celibate because she is beautiful woman!!! 

You just answered yourself a lot of questions my friend. You dont have to read my posts or from others,just read yours,sorry.

It is all about her and what she wants. 

Stay strong.


----------



## farsidejunky

Marc878 said:


> Ha!!! Sauth and Nauth Calina heah, bro


Tennessee transplant here.

What would my friends I grew up with, in _California_, think of me with a drawl and y'all?

Lol. Don't really care, y'all.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

farsidejunky said:


> Tennessee transplant here.
> 
> What would my friends I grew up with, in _California_, think of me with a drawl and y'all?
> 
> Lol. Don't really care, y'all.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Uh well, the women would probably like it. I spent a 4 year stint near Boston and I was an instant celebrity. Nothin like southern charm. It was hard to find regular grits up there though :crying:


----------



## alte Dame

This has only been a few months of your life, which isn't much in the larger scheme of things, but it is momentous in terms of bringing certain things to a head. 

To me, the most fundamental issue this has exposed is the patronizing, superior view of you on the part of not just your in-laws, but your WW as well. This is a slow-growing cancer in any relationship. Your MIL isn't a passive contributor either. She is active in the way she promotes the cancer. It's actually a wonder that you made it through 20 years with this sort of IL behavior.

But you didn't really make it through all these years, did you? You've always known about their attitude and your WW has always known. There is no doubt a ton of hurtful remarks and criticism that she has absorbed from her mother that she never told you about. You and she have stewed in this mix the whole time and now it is out in the open, front and center.

I'm very sad for you, Hantei. Without the IL dynamic, you and the WW might have been happy. It seems like it's gone too far to make an R possible without a complete break from the IL's in your life. She won't do that, I would bet. The onus has always been on her in this regard; she should have stood with her H and not tolerated any disrespect from her parents. 

The dust is settling now and the D looks almost inevitable. I'm sorry.

(And please know that I am like the others here who think this is basically all on your WW. Her mother didn't force her to cheat. Nonetheless, her family's sense of entitlement was a powerful motivator for her dysfunctional behavior.)


----------



## TOMTEFAR

What did your FIL say in the email?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

In an early post you mentioned your wife stood up to her mother at times to defend her marriage and you. In a recent post a somewhat trusted third party relayed some remarks your MIL made about you. 

Was your wife present and what did she say? You mentioned a long email from your FIL. Was it's tone similar to your MIL or just a list of why you should just kiss and make up?


----------



## Marduk

My read?

There's no way you're going to reconcile successfully. Even if you wanted to, I'm sorry but your wife lacks the emotional chops to do so. She seems way too immature and flighty to do the real work required to reconcile. All I see is driven by fear of being alone.

Plus, the in law situation is never gonna be good. And a source of pain and frustration.

So, trying to reconcile would be you playing good cop/bad cop with her for the rest of your life, while taking shots to the gut from having to be around the in laws on holidays and such. And I don't buy the "eject the in laws from your life forever bit."

The FIL knows this, which is why he's reaching out. To try to mend that fence early, plus he probably feels a ton of remorse and guilt over what his wife did. I know I would.

Just pull the rip cord. You're doing a good job of it, keep going.


----------



## bandit.45

I didn't think there was class bias in Australia. I thought Aussies look at who a person is and what they have accomplished for themselves as opposed to what family or economic background they come from. Is there a bourgeoisie class in Australia? I ask this because I do not really know. I thought rich Australians were expected to lay low and not outwardly boast or show ric they are. 

I always saw Aussies as very egalitarian people, and, from everything I have been told and read, it is a "tall poppy" culture: you stick your head above the crowd and you get it whacked off. So I guess I don't understand why the WW's family sees themselves as so high-falootin', and Hantei as substandard. 

Anyways, I agree with Marduk. The WW may claim she will let the D go through and wait for Hantei to decide if he wants her back... but I doubt this highly. She may wait a few more months, but I totally see her bailing about a half year from now...if not sooner. I agree with Marduk that she does not have the emotional maturity or sacrificing nature to be able to stand by and watch and wait while he dates other women and lives his life without her. The most mature, emotionally evolved woman would have a very difficult time doing so. 

And at the same time, I see Hantei emotionally detaching almost daily. I suspect that in another couple of months he will have no desire whatsoever for her to even touch him. If they had a chance of saving the marriage, that should have started a month or more ago with both of them seeing a counselor. They are already way behind the curve.


----------



## farsidejunky

Similar personality to Space Ghost on SI.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hantei

My 1st reaction to the quoted part of post was to disagree (the rest is good and helpful as usual). And I could argue - I have thousands of citutations and faxts to proove otherwise. Respect and commitment from my STBXW, she was clearly in my team all these years, for years her relationship with her parents was on the rocks because of this. But then I realized that it would be pointless. The end justifies means, in a span of couple of weeks she stopped being the model wife I appreciated so much. So your theory is as good as anything else. Thank you. 





alte Dame said:


> To me, the most fundamental issue this has exposed is the patronizing, superior view of you on the part of not just your in-laws, but your WW as well. This is a slow-growing cancer in any relationship. Your MIL isn't a passive contributor either. She is active in the way she promotes the cancer. It's actually a wonder that you made it through 20 years with this sort of IL behavior.
> 
> But you didn't really make it through all these years, did you? You've always known about their attitude and your WW has always known. There is no doubt a ton of hurtful remarks and criticism that she has absorbed from her mother that she never told you about. You and she have stewed in this mix the whole time and now it is out in the open, front and center.


----------



## Hantei

JohnA said:


> In an early post you mentioned your wife stood up to her mother at times to defend her marriage and you. In a recent post a somewhat trusted third party relayed some remarks your MIL made about you.
> 
> Was your wife present and what did she say?


I have been told she was present and they argued. Don't know what exactly she ended up saying.


----------



## Hantei

Not a lot of class bias here and our differences are not based on class or wealth - more on the way we think and live our lives. So I was not substandard but rather "not fitting the formula". 

Please understand that for me and those around me a concept of reaching a family counselor is not as natural and obvious as for many posters here.

I do realise she won't last even without me dating around. And I have no desire for her touch right now, not sure how it will be in a couple of months but probably not too dissimilar. 



bandit.45 said:


> I didn't think there was class bias in Australia. I thought Aussies look at who a person is and what they have accomplished for themselves as opposed to what family or economic background they come from. Is there a bourgeoisie class in Australia? I ask this because I do not really know. I thought rich Australians were expected to lay low and not outwardly boast or show ric they are.
> 
> I always saw Aussies as very egalitarian people, and, from everything I have been told and read, it is a "tall poppy" culture: you stick your head above the crowd and you get it whacked off. So I guess I don't understand why the WW's family sees themselves as so high-falootin', and Hantei as substandard.
> 
> Anyways, I agree with Marduk. The WW may claim she will let the D go through and wait for Hantei to decide if he wants her back... but I doubt this highly. She may wait a few more months, but I totally see her bailing about a half year from now...if not sooner. I agree with Marduk that she does not have the emotional maturity or sacrificing nature to be able to stand by and watch and wait while he dates other women and lives his life without her. The most mature, emotionally evolved woman would have a very difficult time doing so.
> 
> And at the same time, I see Hantei emotionally detaching almost daily. I suspect that in another couple of months he will have no desire whatsoever for her to even touch him. If they had a chance of saving the marriage, that should have started a month or more ago with both of them seeing a counselor. They are already way behind the curve.


----------



## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> Not a lot of class bias here and our differences are not based on class or wealth - more on the way we think and live our lives. So I was not substandard but rather "not fitting the formula".
> 
> *Please understand that for me and those around me a concept of reaching a family counselor is not as natural and obvious as for many posters here.*
> 
> I do realise she won't last even without me dating around. And I have no desire for her touch right now, not sure how it will be in a couple of months but probably not too dissimilar.


I've noticed that about you blokes in the Commonwealth...

Aussies and Brits don't go in for counseling and therapy the way Americans do. Maybe counseling is just a North American thing. Hell.... it is a multi billion dollar industry here.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> I'm not ruling it out yet, but my STBXW and everyone around her need to be on the same page with regards to where we all are and what is my position.
> 
> As I mentioned I will adress this later. For now I'll just say that following my refusal to meet FIL I've received a long email from him and I'm certain we are not on the same page.


I suspect he's been nominated as the family spokesperson. Probably to promote an R in order to head off their daughter being divorced over adultery. It's mainly to salvage the family name/reputation not necessarily to repair the marriage. They could care less about you or what you've been put through. Make no mistake MIL is overseeing this this in the background. Hence everyone is being told you two are "working it out".


----------



## Montana79

I'll admit that I'm a hopeless romantic and hope that somehow, someday you can get past this, reconcile with your wayward wife and everyone live happily forever (the fairy-tale ending, I guess). I do understand how devastating your wife's affair was to you, and she deserves to suffer dire consequences because of it.

There is a HUGE mitigating factor however. Her mother's constant undermining of you for 20+ years. What I would recommend is that you not throw the baby out with the bath water. After reading every word of your thread (and your own posts three or four times) it is my belief that you two are strong candidates for eventual reconciliation. EVENTUAL. Certainly not right away. But someday, after she has suffered the consequences she deserves. You have indicated on several occasions that you still love her.

I think you should throw her a lifeline. Tell her that you will never forget that she cheated on you, but you do have it in your heart to forgive her, provided she does the right things for the next several months.

Follow through with the divorce. That will occur in 10 months, if I understand Aussie law--which by no means am I pretending to (I'm getting my information from you). But I'd like you to give her some hope that there may be some light at the end of the tunnel. But that will require several things from her:

1. Absolutely NC with her former boyfriend of any kind. Not one single word.
2. Distance from her toxic mother, who has been the root cause of this affair from the very beginning. This includes moving out of her house. Perhaps her FIL can help facilitate this (he has his own reasons for doing this--not least of which is resuscitating his family's good name, which has suffered from his daughter's adultery).
2. Total abstinence from any other man. If she is trying eventually to win her husband back she absolutely should not be dating ANYONE else.


----------



## TX-SC

In reading many posts by cheaters who want to R, it's apparent to me that they often flounder, not knowing how to move forward. Some of them honestly are remorseful and don't want to lose their spouse. However, they are caught between helping themselves and putting all of their effort into helping their broken spouse. Not everyone immediately turns to the internet for help. If she doesn't have helpful friends and family, or at least knowledgeable ones on this subject, she may simply not know WHAT to do to set things right. 

It's also not unheard of for cheaters, and especially women, to assign love and a future to their OM. Why, because they can't imagine doing something like this if love isn't involved. So, they bank on it, only to be shattered when it goes to crap. 

You have a family that loves you. Your wife made a horrible mistake and wants to fix it, but she doesn't know what you need. It's time to tell her what you need and see if she can make it work. Don't keep her in the dark.


----------



## Marc878

This isn't up to her. If Hantei is the type who can't get over an affair it's his choice to make.

I think his plan is sound. Divorce and then if circumstances warrant start a new marriage after.

It's what you really need to think about before crawling into bed with another man isn't it?

Not everyone is set to automatically reconcile. Why save the marriage at the cost of your soul?


----------



## TX-SC

Marc878 said:


> This isn't up to her. If Hantei is the type who can't get over an affair it's his choice to make.
> 
> I think his plan is sound. Divorce and then if circumstances warrant start a new marriage after.
> 
> It's what you really need to think about before crawling into bed with another man isn't it?
> 
> Not everyone is set to automatically reconcile. Why save the marriage at the cost of your soul?


Well, yes, I agree to an extent. Hantei has posted that there are certain things he wants to see from her so he's sitting back waiting to see if she does them. She may simply not know what to do. 

As for this being all about Hantei, again you are mostly right. But she can do things to make him feel secure about her again and start to build trust. So in that regard, she has a part in this too. Hantei may indeed decide that this is a deal breaker for him. If so, more power to him and I wish him luck. But since TAM is generally a pro marriage board, I don't think we should always yell "DIVORCE HER!" every time there is infidelity. I really hate cheaters, but even I can see how someone can make horrible choices then see the error of their ways and want to fix it. Hantei's wife seems remorseful and eager to fix this, even if it means getting divorced first. We can't always follow the Mad Queen's directives and yell "Off with her head!" every time there is a cheating spouse.


----------



## Marc878

TX-SC said:


> Well, yes, I agree to an extent. Hantei has posted that there are certain things he wants to see from her so he's sitting back waiting to see if she does them. She may simply not know what to do.
> 
> As for this being all about Hantei, again you are mostly right. But she can do things to make him feel secure about her again and start to build trust. So in that regard, she has a part in this too. Hantei may indeed decide that this is a deal breaker for him. If so, more power to him and I wish him luck. But since TAM is generally a pro marriage board, I don't think we should always yell "DIVORCE HER!" every time there is infidelity. I really hate cheaters, but even I can see how someone can make horrible choices then see the error of their ways and want to fix it. Hantei's wife seems remorseful and eager to fix this, even if it means getting divorced first. We can't always follow the Mad Queen's directives and yell "Off with her head!" every time there is a cheating spouse.


Personally I think she would be fine but it takes two for a reconciliation.

He's said repeatedly he will follow through with divorce. He's correct in a way this marriage is over except on paper. 

Just because she would do well with reconciliation he would have to own it as well. Not everyone will or should automatically reconcile.


----------



## Montana79

TX-SC said:


> Hantei has posted that there are certain things he wants to see from her so he's sitting back waiting to see if she does them. She may simply not know what to do.


This exactly. 

That was the point I was trying to make above.

I have a strong feeling that she WANTS to do the things she must do to regain his trust. But she simply doesn't know what those things are. Only Hantei knows what she can do to convince him of her remorse.

So he should tell her. Make no promises, but tell her that unless she does certain things, there is no chance of reconciliation.

IF she does those things, I think maybe he will feel differently about her in a few months.

Paramount among those things is to get her away from the toxic MIL.


----------



## Marc878

Getting a daughter to completely break with her mother (which would probably entail her family as well). Good luck with that.

After what he's been through and knows about their (MIL's) input in this sordid affair. 

I'm not sure there's gonna be a feel good ending to this.


----------



## Hantei

A lot of good suggestions and observations, which can all be summarised into a very simple problem. She seems to be willing to do "anything" as many of you have pointed out, however she does not know what that "anything" should involve. My biggest issue is that at times I feel there is maybe "something" but for the sake of my I don't know what this "something" may be so I can抰 tell her even if I'd be willing to. Not that I have a secret list under my pillow that I'm not sharing with her out of vengeance or stubbornness. I'd just say if she goes to IC of sort even on her own or swears she won't do it again (which she did any times) - this won't cut it for me. Don't know what will. 

Now on the letter (email) I've got from FIL. This is somehow hard to describe as I don't want to post or quote it here (the same I'm not posting or quoting emails from STBX) - no matter what I respect he and their privacy. I think the summary is:
1) It is full of "we are sorry, she's sorry, you are like son to us (f&**ck that's a 1st time), we are here for you, we support you, you've done the right thing, etc., etc.). So please don't assume it's not there. It is and a lot of it, so this box is ticked. However the way it is written... while most of that stuff comes from FIL somehow I have an image in my head that my MIL and perhaps STBXW were standing and looking over his shoulder. So yeah he's acting like a spokesperson there.

2) The reason I say that is because there is a subtle but clear thin red line in his email. Not sure if I can express this clearly - but it feels like they somehow know or assume that we will end up together. Like as soon as I did not pack my bags, jumped in the car and went totally dark (which Id did not because of my son and clear divorce only) - we ought to R. Like what I'm doing now is some sort of "wife's affair 101 cheat sheet" - so in our (sic) best interest is to go through all this insignificant formalities of separation and divorce (sarcasm here) and fall back in love. Like "OK you have made the point, stop punishing yourself and other, she's learned the lesson, let's start being happy altogether". Again it's not how it is written but I feel this is a hidden message behind all the right words.

3) This is even harder to describe but... another subtle hint is her wellbeing and... progress I guess? Let me try to explain in an alternative way and please try to read through my not so clear description. 

Some phrases and sentences were so not like FIL - or anyone else I know. They would be OK on TAM (which has its own jargon) but that's not what people around me use in real life. So I thought maybe he is quoting some book or something and I googled. Guess what - he did not copy and paste anything - but the search led me to another forum which has a section for woman (married or not) that have cheated or are cheating. So the hint in email was totally in line with what is being discussed there. What I mean is that it抯 all about "her" (e.g. an abstract WW) feelings and loss and how she needs to be a better person and move on and be happy and how beautiful she is and smart she is and how she does not deserve that SOB and how hard it is to break up with AP, blah blah blah. So all about personal development and growth and being a better person for a next man (when husband is aware and is not so willing to take her back), while husbands are only mentioned either in a context of "our marriage was crap because of him", "or I love my H so much, but.." and then back about being a better person and hugs and support and expression of feelings that she deserves better than OM or her now-not-so-supportive H. I'm not saying that is how it was worded in email - it was not - but there was a hint of that. That she is working on herself, she is going to be a better and happy person again so I better help her to get there pronto (see 2). And my only thoughts when I was reading this email, then this other forum, then this email again were "OK, what about that insignificant fact that gets lost in hugs and personal development advices that one evening she (abstract WW not just my STBXW) f&^%cks the OM, than takes a shower dresses up and turns up home with her H with a smile on her lips like nothing happened? What part of personal development and being a better person process addresses that?". 

As I have said it is not worded like that in the email but I can't stop thinking about it when I was reading it. Like her working on herself is a key, once she is a good person again the slate is wiped clean. I know this is clear as mud but that was my impression - or I am getting paranoid.

I do not think that she is aware of the full contents of the email and 100% of my interpretation of it. But unless she comes up with the way to address the above our chances to R and slim to none.


----------



## Marc878

Hahahahaha nothing like some good old manipulation. 

From what I read it's "OK, Hantei you've made your point now it's time to kiss and make up" or someone else will snag her. Yep, the clan has pooled their ideas together on this. 

But there remains that little fact of how you feel about the situation. She went out and fvcked another man!!!! But only twice

They aren't on the receiving end of this. You are.

You aren't in a mental state to take on a reconciliation yet from what I see. Where is it written that you have to R? Where does it say you have to R on the second day of the third month after she committed adultery? I didn't get that memo.

I wouldn't respond to that contrived bullsh!t.

Time is what you need more than anything at this point. 

It smells of desperation.


----------



## lostmyreligion

water
*blood*

Given the clarity of your writing on the board Hantei, I don't doubt for a second that what you read in the subtext of your FIL's letter was accurate.


----------



## JohnA

Could you PM the site you think she read? Loveshack does very much fits your describtion. If that is indeed where she is getting her info she is barking up the wrong tree. I recently began to read posts on .survivinginfidelity. The tone of the WS is much different. The site itself is clumsy to use and the graphics poor, yet there iI good info to be had. 

I believe you mentioned your wife asked who you where talking to. Is it possible she is posting on another site? In any event if you know what site she is reading it might help you gain insight into where her head is at. 

How is you son doing? How much time are you spending with him? His world is in chaos as well. Do you ask him for his thoughts?


----------



## Be smart

If you choose to D or R your father in law and mother in law have to go from your life. I wouldnt want my son sticking around them if I was in your shoes,sorry.

They dont see you as a good man for their daughter my friend. Her mother pushed her to have Affair and choose "better man". All thrash talk about you during the years you have been married is going to continue and both of them will tell her "what if or we told you so".

Now your father in law is telling you to move on and forget all about her Affair. You made your point,she cries a lot bla bla now take her back. This is not the way to deal with his daughter Affair. Ask him what would he do if his wife did the same thing. I can bet my life he will keep his mouth shut.

Back to your wife- is she still spending her time at your house after the work ? You can start from there and tell her your conditions about R. 

No Contact with OM at all. 
If he sends her a message she needs to tell you
No male friends
Limited Contact with her mother and father
She needs to write you a timeline of her Affair
Find a good therapist for herself,your Marriage and maybe even your Son
Clean STD test
She gives you all paswords,no secret accounts and no "privacy". Only when she takes a $hit

You dont have to sit around your house and only think about Marriage and her Affair my friend. Find new friends,hobbies,sometimes go out. Let her know you are ready to move on and that you are not dependent on her. 

Stay strong


----------



## Hantei

Yes it's loveshack. I'm not saying she's reading it or posting. I Googled one of the phrases from that email and one of the links led me to that forum. I wish it didn't. 


Not going to post a lot about my son ATM. Let's say this mothers day was not fun.

STBXW still spends evenings in my house with us, we talk. .. ATM it does not feel it is salvageable. 





JohnA said:


> Could you PM the site you think she read? Loveshack does very much fits your describtion. If that is indeed where she is getting her info she is barking up the wrong tree. I recently began to read posts on .survivinginfidelity. The tone of the WS is much different. The site itself is clumsy to use and the graphics poor, yet there iI good info to be had.
> 
> I believe you mentioned your wife asked who you where talking to. Is it possible she is posting on another site? In any event if you know what site she is reading it might help you gain insight into where her head is at.
> 
> How is you son doing? How much time are you spending with him? His world is in chaos as well. Do you ask him for his thoughts?


----------



## bankshot1993

Hantei said:


> Yes it's loveshack. I'm not saying she's reading it or posting. I Googled one of the phrases from that email and one of the links led me to that forum. I wish it didn't.
> 
> 
> Not going to post a lot about my son ATM. Let's say this mothers day was not fun.
> 
> STBXW still spends evenings in my house with us, we talk. .. ATM it does not feel it is salvageable.


I'm curious H, during the evenings that she is spending with you guys, what is it like? how is the communication between you two? is it strained, is it cordial, fighting?

why do you say that it doesn't feel salvageable at the moment? 

I guess what I'm asking is if she is showing remorse or entitlement. Does she act like a wife who is trying to heal her betrayed spouse or is she trying to sweep it all under the rug and forget it happened.

Lastly, I can understand you not wanting to talk about your son to much, but I am curious if he is getting over what happened and are you trying to help him heal. I know its a very difficult position for you to be in but it is your son and she is his mother. The internal conflict going on in his head must be enormous. being torn between loyalty to his mother and his father can be extremely traumatic for him so letting him know that its ok to still love his mother may be something he really needs to deal with that inner turmoil.


----------



## Marc878

The big problem is she didn't think about how her affair would blow her son up. He's old enough to understand and that may take some counseling.

The true gift of infidelity. It affects everyone in the family not just the BS.

Does she get it now? I wonder


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> Yes it's loveshack. I'm not saying she's reading it or posting. I Googled one of the phrases from that email and one of the links led me to that forum. I wish it didn't.
> 
> *That was from FIL and MIL i suspect. *
> 
> Not going to post a lot about my son ATM. Let's say this mothers day was not fun.
> 
> *Resentment?*
> 
> STBXW still spends evenings in my house with us, we talk. .. ATM it does not feel it is salvageable
> 
> *She has nowhere else to turn by staying away from MIL. What seems to be the issue? You or her?*.


----------



## Marc878

You need some time away. When are you and your son going on your trip?

I would let her stay at the house. Keeping away from MIL at this time woul be wise for the both of you no matter how this turns out.


----------



## JohnA

You should read the wayward section on SI. To see the difference. I can see reconciling with more a few of them. LS site I would rather by gay then hook up with any of them. From you post this might resonate. Except she is showing remorse



Let me know what you think.


----------



## NotEasy

Hantei said:


> Yes it's loveshack. I'm not saying she's reading it or posting. I Googled one of the phrases from that email and one of the links led me to that forum. I wish it didn't.
> 
> 
> Not going to post a lot about my son ATM. Let's say this mothers day was not fun.
> 
> STBXW still spends evenings in my house with us, we talk. .. ATM it does not feel it is salvageable.


Hantei, maybe I am too cautious, but you may want to ask a moderator to move this thread to the private area.

If the inlaws are using internet sites they may stumble on this thread. I don't remember anything damaging in the thread. Or much that they could identify you with, but, an Aussie, with a boat, one son and wife had an affair thanks to MIL.

You are having trouble with your wife (STBXW) making the correct actions; how much harder would your decisions be if you thought she may be reading her 'answers' off this thread?


----------



## Hantei

The issue is both in me and her. I see her trying but even if we get to the point when we sit down and brainstorm what she could do t on save it (she is trying) I'd fail to come up with the list. Think we've passed a point of no return.



Marc878 said:


> You need some time away. When are you and your son going on your trip?
> 
> I would let her stay at the house. Keeping away from MIL at this time woul be wise for the both of you no matter how this turns out.


Soon. She's welcome to stay.



JohnA said:


> You should read the wayward section on SI. To see the difference. I can see reconciling with more a few of them. LS site I would rather by gay then hook up with any of them. From you post this might resonate. Except she is showing remorse
> 
> SurvivingInfidelity.com - brewing storm
> 
> Let me know what you think.


I think the same. He was so persistent it was easier for her to sleep with him and see was coming back because he was more serially experienced? Nah, give me another planet or don't talk love to me.



NotEasy said:


> Hantei, maybe I am too cautious, but you may want to ask a moderator to move this thread to the private area.
> 
> If the inlaws are using internet sites they may stumble on this thread. I don't remember anything damaging in the thread. Or much that they could identify you with, but, an Aussie, with a boat, one son and wife had an affair thanks to MIL.
> 
> You are having trouble with your wife (STBXW) making the correct actions; how much harder would your decisions be if you thought she may be reading her 'answers' off this thread?


Appreciate the concern but it does not really matter if they discover. And if STBXW reads this... so what? With respect to other posters here who did help me if she goes by the script - timeline, IC, whatever- it won't cut it for me. If she starts posting- she'll get a lot of work on yourself advices which will be good to her but I'll stop posting as it'll be a f%%___ing circus. 

But I appreciate the advice. Thanks


----------



## bandit.45

A deal breaker is a deal breaker. The marriage is dead and buried. 

I think you should start dating other women and living your life for yourself now. Stop letting her hold out hope that you still want the marriage.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> The issue is both in me and her. I see her trying but even if we get to the point when we sit down and brainstorm what she could do t on save it (she is trying) I'd fail to come up with the list. Think we've passed a point of no return.


While you're away take some time to reflect. If this is a deal breaker like bandit said you need at some point to implement distance so you both can move on. 

Give her a schedule on days she can be there when you aren't.


----------



## bandit.45

Yep. Stop playing the friendly family game. It is confusing to your son and to her. Try to be gone when she is over seeing him. Go work out or go for a jog or something.


----------



## farsidejunky

bandit.45 said:


> A deal breaker is a deal breaker. The marriage is dead and buried.
> 
> I think you should start dating other women and living your life for yourself now. Stop letting her hold out hope that you still want the marriage.


I would agree with this. If it really is over, let it be over and have the mercy to communicate to her that it's time to move on.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## TDSC60

bandit.45 said:


> A deal breaker is a deal breaker. The marriage is dead and buried.
> 
> I think you should start dating other women and living your life for yourself now. Stop letting her hold out hope that you still want the marriage.


Maybe it is just me, but I don't think he should date other women until he makes up his mind that there is absolutely no hope for R. Even then I would advise waiting until the divorce is final. While the marriage may be destroyed by her infidelity, technically they are still married.

Divorce is an emotional and gut wrenching process. No need to complicate matters with another woman in the mix.


----------



## JohnA

@Marc878, 

I disagree somewhat with the thought that she didn't realize the outcome of her adultery. Perhaps she min the outcome and kept min them to enable her to enter and continue the adultery. ie I know son will be upset -at first- but in end he will realize it was for the best, for both me, him, snd Hantei. 

Random thought on awareness. Read a book once where a young woman questioned how the hell her two spinster virgin aunts knew so much about sex and men. If her father was already familiar with LS and steered her to it, it does beg the question of how he knew about. 

PS You where on this board several years ago for a friend. Did what you read then effect you thoughts now?


----------



## Ripper

Hantei said:


> That she is working on herself, she is going to be a better and happy person again so I better help her to get there pronto.


I personally always love it when someone pulls out this particular reconciliation manipulation tactic. 

You better hurry up and rug-sweep this or else some other man will snatch up that wonderful 40+ adulteress who blew up her family for a player. Act quickly and also receive a bonus package consisting of one manipulative home wreaking mother-in-law and one spineless enabling father-in-law.

I can understand being done, especially if this is all you are being offered. The physical affair itself would be/was my deal breaker. Everything else would just add more obstacles to what would already be an impossible task.


----------



## Marc878

JohnA said:


> @Marc878,
> 
> I disagree somewhat with the thought that she didn't realize the outcome of her adultery. Perhaps she min the outcome and kept min them to enable her to enter and continue the adultery. ie I know son will be upset -at first- but in end he will realize it was for the best, for both me, him, snd Hantei.
> 
> *I doubt she was even thinking of them. Selfish people only think of themselves plus she did it thinking shed never get caught.
> *
> Random thought on awareness. Read a book once where a young woman questioned how the hell her two spinster virgin aunts knew so much about sex and men. If her father was already familiar with LS and steered her to it, it does beget the question of how he knew about.
> 
> *Or they googled various subjects to get info*
> 
> PS You where on this board several years ago for a friend. Did what you read then effect you thoughts now?
> 
> *No, comes from managing a few to as many as 750 over the years..*


----------



## just got it 55

Having a lifetime of influence of her parents, does not appear likely she will be what you expect from a mate/partner/lover.

She will not or is incapable to get it.

55


----------



## azteca1986

Marc878 said:


> Hahahahaha nothing like some good old manipulation.


What manipulation? What are you seeing that I'm missing?


----------



## Marc878

azteca1986 said:


> What manipulation? What are you seeing that I'm missing?


The letter sent to Hantei from his FIL


----------



## Be smart

In one of the posts you wrote if she moves out from her parents home and if you dont make up your mind she will maybe choose another man. 

Even your father in law said something similiar in his letter.

If you want to save this Marriage then be ready to lose it my friend. You cant live like this and be in constant fear of her ditching you for another man again. She already done this.

Remember you are the one who should make the rules,not her and not her mother or father.

She is coming to your House every night and you are still in the same position after 3 months of this. 

She told you she slept with him two times,she is in no contact with him but what makes you think those words are true? I dont know how can you trust her.

Then ask yourself a question what did she do to make you feel loved again and to show you how sorry she is ??? She only cries

Stay strong


----------



## azteca1986

Marc878 said:


> The letter sent to Hantei from his FIL


Yes, I understand what you're referring to, I just fail to see the "manipulation".


----------



## Marc878

azteca1986 said:


> Yes, I understand what you're referring to, I just fail to see the "manipulation".


The gist of the letter was pushing Hantei to R before someone else came along.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> Thanks guys (and ladies). All of the above. Both the fact that when the dust settled the reality and magnitude of what happened caught up with me. My kid also snapped and let her have it and it was not nice. Details- - yes - I have them. May not be all of them. Counterintuitive what I learned is really mundane and does not change the landscape yet they make a huge effect. Strangely I'd feel more...stable.. if I learned (being sarcastic here) that she was having sex with SOB, his brother and the next door neighbor for years. Instead a have her falling for a stupid player so badly ahe felt obliged to follow his script.
> 
> *On Tuesday I attempted to catch up with him on person. No luck but I'll keep trying. Really want him to repeat some things he said about me in my presence.*
> 
> My story is 100% opposite to bff (unremorseful wife happy in post marriage relationship with OM and no kids). Wish mine was the same.


I'm assuming this is one of your problems with R. SOB's trashing you.
Did the wife join in or just silently agree?

Three issues with R I'm assuming you're having to deal with.

1. - Wife's betrayal which is bad enough
2. - History and current interference from her family which will never go away 
3. - perhaps for you the SOB's back stabbing which maybe the biggest dealbreaker especially if your wife joined in?

A lot more baggage to overcome than just a normal affair. If there is such a thing.


----------



## Roselyn

Woman here, 36 years married, first time marriage for both of us and never cheated. You are Plan B. Your wife's lover did not want her, so she returns to you. She will repeat this performance. Divorce her. Move on with your life. You have so much drama, dealing with in-laws & her entourage as well.

I am fairly good looking, a career woman, educated at the Ph.D. level, and very well-liked by people. I know that if I cheat, my husband would kick me to the curb and will not tolerate nonsense. I know the consequences of bad behavior, so I do not dare.

You will be tormented by her past actions and I truly believe that this won't be the last. You are still young in your early 40s and can get a new life with a woman who will appreciate you and will put you first in their life. Your choice with your life...be at peace or live in torment.


----------



## becareful

Roselyn said:


> I am fairly good looking, a career woman, educated at the Ph.D. level, and very well-liked by people. I know that if I cheat, my husband would kick me to the curb and will not tolerate nonsense. I know the consequences of bad behavior, so I do not dare.



This. This is what every person should look for in a potential mate.

As for the other point, I don't think Hantei's wife will cheat again.


----------



## Hantei

becareful said:


> As for the other point, I don't think Hantei's wife will cheat again.



I don't think she will either. Well at least definitely not on me. I'm basically calling it quits, informed and re iterated there will be no R. Won't get past this ever.


----------



## bandit.45

That's alright H. Some betrayals just cut too deep. It's okay to not want to save it. 

Now, again, try to be somewhere else when she is at your house with your son.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1

If it's a deal breaker then just know that your lives will be cut from one another. A clean cut is cleaner than a messy rip. You owe it to your kid, and the mother of your child, to begin winding things down as quickly and with as much honesty and honor as you are capable.


----------



## farsidejunky

Sorry, brother. 

Did something else happen that led to the finality?

How was it taken by her? The in-laws?

I agree with eric. Have the decency to create the distance she is unwilling to herself create due to her farfetched hope for reconciliation. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## NotEasy

It is good that you have reached a firm decision about R. I like the occasional stories of successful R. But far more I absolutely hate stories of uncertain or half-hearted R. I feel all we should do is help people consider options and make their own decision. Glad you have made yours. Better to say no at than to attempt it half hearted or struggle in a false R. 

So, a slightly off topic question. Don't answer if you don't want.


Do you think your MIL has poisoned any chance of reconcilliation?


I don't think this is some going to show you a new way forward, and I am not trying to push you in any direction, just trying to understand. 

It seems to me your MIL is a major negative factor in this story. In the past she put strain on the marriage, then she introduced the OM, and now she is probably the driver behind the FIL email. 
But worse than all this it seems she raised her daughter to see herself as above self reflection. From what I have read here it seems your wife doesn't grasp the need to fix herself and repair the damage she has done, rather she seems aimed at getting back to the old marriage (rug sweeping). And that makes R hard to impossible. So now even if you could keep MIL out of the picture (which I doubt) she has already molded her daughter.


----------



## Be smart

I think you did the right thing my friend. 
Maybe she can block this OM from your lives but her mother would be there all the time and she will remind you of Affair. This way you will not be able to heal yourself,sorry.

Now work on yourself and spend some time with friends,your son. When she comes to your house go for a run or a drink. Show her you are going to be alright.

How did she accept this news?

Stay strong. This is just the begining of your new life.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> I don't think she will either. Well at least definitely not on me. I'm basically calling it quits, informed and re iterated there will be no R. Won't get past this ever.


Sorry man.


----------



## Palodyne

Hantei said:


> I don't think she will either. Well at least definitely not on me. I'm basically calling it quits, informed and re iterated there will be no R. Won't get past this ever.


 If it's a deal breaker for you, then no R it is. You have a great kid to keep you busy at the beach, and plenty of beautiful women that would just love the chance to have a honorable, faithful, man to love.

You have a lot of great years and times ahead of you. Enjoy your life to the full, enjoy all the time you have with your son. You are going to happy, and you deserve it!


----------



## alte Dame

I'm sad for you, H., but think you are doing the right thing for your own future. Pride and principle are important. When people betray, the relationship is fractured. I think that many people feel that they would never have reconciled (which is them trying to 'unfracture' everything) if they'd given themselves some time to regroup.

If you were my son, I would be saying that I agree with your decision.

Good luck!


----------



## Marc878

A lot get wrapped up in "she wouldn't do it again" but for some that doesn't matter. 

The consequences of an affair. Don't expect a second chance.


----------



## bandit.45

I can almost predict with certainty that as soon as she confirms that he has checked out, she will be dating a new guy or guys in no time. She's not going to wait for him. She doesn't have it in her.


----------



## JohnA

I think @alte Dame has the right of it at this point. While being firm, try to be gentle and kind if possible. For example do not say "no because once a **** always a ****". At the same time do not accept responsibility on any level for the adultery so perhaps say "marriage is to important to have uncertainty concerning adultery" and leave it at that. 

On a side note use the word "adultery". To me saying affair is a form of rugsweeping lite.


----------



## farsidejunky

@Hantei:

Just checking up on you, brother. How are you holding up? 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

Have a good trip with your son. You need to get away.


----------



## TDSC60

A physical affair is the ultimate deal breaker for some. If I knew that my wife had a physical affair, I could never get past it. The marriage would be done - end of story.


----------



## bankshot1993

@Hantei, It sure would be great to hear from you and let us know how you and your son are doing.


----------



## TDSC60

bankshot1993 said:


> @Hantei, It sure would be great to hear from you and let us know how you and your son are doing.


H was supposed to go on a trip with his son.

Hopefully that is where he is and they are having a blast together.

H - update when you can.


----------



## bandit.45

Australians take long vacations. I think they get a mandated four weeks a year.


----------



## ing

bandit.45 said:


> Australians take long vacations. I think they get a mandated four weeks a year.


Australia used to pretty much shut down from December 24th to January 15th. It is still the silly season and if you have to work it is almost impossible to get anything done since nobody gives a sh1t 

All the rest of the year we work like dogs with lots of unpaid overtime. It is a little bit weird.


----------



## Hantei

Nothing major to update. Keeping myself busy between my kid and the work. Good thing - 3 deals in the pipeline, if even one works I'm set for life.

When it comes to STBXW. . . looks like we are done for good. She has "woken up" and started to put real efforts at all levels. And don't get me wrong if I'd be on a receiving end of such... dedication... from any other women I'm in a relationship with I'd be happy as Larry but with her it always ends up with "so the net outcome is I'll have to suck it up and get over it " thought in my head. I assume that's what you call a deal breaker. 

Also am sure she wouldn't want this situation to go on for years. Getting hints I didn't really love her to begin with.

So feeling more and more detached these days. Like meeting someone else is no longer off limits IFKWIM.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> Nothing major to update. Keeping myself busy between my kid and the work. Good thing - 3 deals in the pipeline, if even one works I'm set for life.
> 
> When it comes to STBXW. . . looks like we are done for good. She has "woken up" and started to put real efforts at all levels. And don't get me wrong if I'd be on a receiving end of such... dedication... from any other women I'm in a relationship with I'd be happy as Larry but with her it always ends up with *"so the net outcome is I'll have to suck it up and get over it "* thought in my head. I assume that's what you call a deal breaker.
> 
> No matter what it'll always be there and you are correct.
> 
> Also am sure she wouldn't want this situation to go on for years. *Getting hints I didn't really love her to begin with.*
> 
> This is either justification or guilt trip
> 
> So feeling more and more detached these days. Like meeting someone else is no longer off limits IFKWIM.


Once you make your final decision if you haven't tell her it's over and cut any unnecessary contact. Do both of you a favor and don't string her along.

Sorry this happened and good luck to you and your son.


----------



## alte Dame

You've detached pretty quickly. Keep going, H. I think you would quickly have buyer's remorse if you tried to R.


----------



## Hantei

Of course I made it very clear and unambiguous (so I'm facing a perfect ****storm now  )


----------



## Nix

Hantei, you sound like a wonderful man and if you ever decide to marry again, you will make your future bride a very happy woman indeed.

I am so sorry this has happened to you. Three years ago, virtually the same scenario happened to me. As someone posted earlier, everyone is a unique individual yet our collective circumstances are oh so strangely similar. My ex turned into a stranger and left me the year she turned 40 as well. There's something about that age; it seems to detonate hidden land mines in certain people. Sadly for us, we each hooked up with partners whose midlife crises derailed our lives.

Fast forward three years, I've found new love (and marriage), and I've grown 1000% as a human being. I thank my ex for leaving, because I never would have done it, and it was necessary for us both.

Better to know the truth than live a lie. You sound like you are coping reasonably well. Blessings to you.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> Of course I made it very clear and unambiguous (so I'm facing a perfect ****storm now  )


Hmmm she cheats doesn't get her way and now you're getting a sh!tstorm? Sounds reasonable >. Entitlement to cheat and have her way. You knew this was coming didn't you?

Is that why you didn't entertain R?


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Hang in there. You are doing everything in my opinion 100% correctly. Be there for your son, and minimize contact with STBXW. Let her stew in the **** she created as we say in Kentucky. You are a good man sir.


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> Hmmm she cheats doesn't get her way and now you're getting a sh!tstorm? Sounds reasonable >. Entitlement to cheat and have her way. You knew this was coming didn't you?
> 
> Is that why you didn't entertain R?



Not really. I'm not reconciling because I can't get over it an in my cituation this (getting over it) is a pre requisite to R.
The rest is an aftermath of that decision and she is not the only and not the loudest voice in the choir. 



Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Hang in there. You are doing everything in my opinion 100% correctly. Be there for your son, and minimize contact with STBXW. Let her stew in the **** she created as we say in Kentucky. You are a good man sir.


Thanks mate.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

My wife and I are planning to come to Australia in 2017 as I have friends who taught my cousin when he was an exchange student in Sydney we are close to. I am also wanting to visit Cairns where my father in laws squadron was stationed in WWII. 

On a side note, my son, who had an Austrailian teammate on his college basketball team informed me that Fosters is considered inferior beer. Hell, I like it.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> Of course I made it very clear and unambiguous (so I'm facing a perfect ****storm now  )


From whom, and in what way?

And you do sound healthy, brother. I hope your deal(s) come through.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## NotEasy

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> My wife and I are planning to come to Australia in 2017 as I have friends who taught my cousin when he was an exchange student in Sydney we are close to. I am also wanting to visit Cairns where my father in laws squadron was stationed in WWII.
> 
> On a side note, my son, who had an Austrailian teammate on his college basketball team informed me that Fosters is considered inferior beer. Hell, I like it.


Welcome to Oz, especially given your father in laws service.

Your sons teammate is right. Why do you think we export so much Fosters? I wish it was all sent out of Australia. For some reason the English really like it, even though they have Guinness.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> Not really. I'm not reconciling because I can't get over it an in my cituation this (getting over it) is a pre requisite to Rz.
> The rest is an aftermath of that decision and she is not the only and not the loudest voice in the choir.


Pretty funny. MIL or FIL????? Like you give a sh!t, right? Must be amusing.


----------



## Hantei

farsidejunky said:


> From whom, and in what way?
> 
> And you do sound healthy, brother. I hope your deal(s) come through.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Apparently I'm cruel, unforgiving, have a caveman type of reaction, must've never truly loved her , making the biggest mistake of my life and owe it to our son as well.

That's a short summary. 




Marc878 said:


> Pretty funny. MIL or FIL????? Like you give a sh!t, right? Must be amusing.


Not from in-laws or at least not directly. Official version is that they're terribly sorry and support me but also want the best for their daughter and grandson.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> Apparently I'm cruel, unforgiving, have a caveman type of reaction, must've never truly loved her , making the biggest mistake of my life and owe it to our son as well.
> 
> That's a short summary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not from in-laws or at least not directly. Official version is that they're terribly sorry and support me but also want the best for their daughter and grandson.


That's the gamble you take in having an affair isn't it. Not everyone gets or is willing to give a second chance. Boo Hoo

Apparently trying to justify the affair now sounds like. If you want to get over it quicker and get on with your life go dark except for dealing with your son and move on. Let them figure it out and deal with it.

Get busy living the rest of your life. You may find the best for you out there. I hope so.

Good luck man


----------



## Marc878

She/they are not your problem anymore.


----------



## Be smart

We are at the beginning of your thread my friend. Remember when your wife attacked you with words and blamed you for her Cheating? She even blamed you when you told your Son saying you are trying to destroy Family. Like wtf. This is what Cheaters do,trust me. Cheaters think they did nothing wrong and they never think about Family and pain they caused. 

To be honest with you,you should tell your father and mother in law to mind they own business. Especially your mother in law. 

Spend your time with your Son. Find new friends and new Lady my friend. 

Stay strong.


----------



## Marc878

Hantei said:


> Apparently I'm cruel, unforgiving, have a caveman type of reaction, must've never truly loved her , making the biggest mistake of my life and owe it to our son as well.


 Hantei is not a fool. Better a caveman than a doormat plan B. I think you will find other women kinda like cavemen.

My friend you owe it to yourself to live a life that you deserve. Where is it written that you have to forgive? I've not seen that anywhere.

She above everyone knew who you are but wrecked the marriage anyway. Obviously she didn't care but now just wants her sh!tty decision forgotten, forgiven and live happily ever after but she didn't figure you and your feelings in the equation did she?

Now the reality hits and it can't be her fault???? Total bullsh!t!!!!!

It sums up like this. You never know what you had until it was lost.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hantei said:


> Apparently I'm cruel, unforgiving, have a caveman type of reaction, must've never truly loved her , making the biggest mistake of my life and owe it to our son as well.
> 
> That's a short summary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not from in-laws or at least not directly. Official version is that they're terribly sorry and support me but also want the best for their daughter and grandson.


Consequences suck.

Who else besides her is saying this if the in-laws are not?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> Apparently I'm cruel, unforgiving, have a caveman type of reaction, *must've never truly loved her *, making the biggest mistake of my life and owe it to our son as well.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a short summary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not from in-laws or at least not directly. Official version is that they're terribly sorry and support me but also want the best for their daughter and grandson.




the best response to this is truth, the most powerful weapon.

"I did love you, but I do not love you anymore. We don't need to waste any time discussing why"


----------



## Hantei

farsidejunky said:


> Consequences suck.
> 
> Who else besides her is saying this if the in-laws are not?



Pretty much from everyone (relatives, friends). Except STBXW, to give her credit, she's working hard, her only comment was that I didn't really love her. That I understand. 



eric1 said:


> the best response to this is truth, the most powerful weapon.
> 
> "I did love you, but I do not love you anymore. We don't need to waste any time discussing why"


True but this is the message that is bloody hard to get after 20 years of model marriage.


----------



## Marc878

You don't really owe her anything but have you set her down and explained why it has to be over?

That could be good for the both of you. Unlike a lot of cases it sounds like you could coparent well.

Not every couple can or should reconcile a marriage. Most don't get that.


----------



## Hantei

Marc878 said:


> You don't really owe her anything but have you set her down and explained why it has to be over?
> 
> That could be good for the both of you. Unlike a lot of cases it sounds like you could coparent well.
> 
> Not every couple can or should reconcile a marriage. Most don't get that.


Of course I have. Perhaps I have not clearly explained the reasons and I'm not feeling like stripping my mind down anymore TBH.


----------



## Marc878

If you've made your decision then it's time to go dark except short texts/emails involving you son.

Cut out the talking/ etc. if you haven't you'll both detach in time. 

Nothing says it's over like silence.


----------



## JohnA

How about saying "I loved you fir twenty years. You and you alone could break me and you did so. You broke me and I don't believe you will ever be able to fix this, you are not woman enough."


----------



## eric1

Hantei said:


> Of course I have. Perhaps I have not clearly explained the reasons and I'm not feeling like stripping my mind down anymore TBH.




That's why the simple statement that I threw up above is a good route to go. You've been to hell and back and at this point you're just mentally checked out.

You need to take a deep breath and start in on yourself. She's clear on why you're leaving and getting over this is entirely on her. Your best bet is to just cut a nice clean slice and keep things as clean as possible.

You need a break from all of this crap


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> Apparently I'm cruel, unforgiving, have a caveman type of reaction, must've never truly loved her , making the biggest mistake of my life and owe it to our son as well.
> 
> That's a short summary.


All this means is that it's a good thing reconciliation is off the table, because she externalizes all blame onto you.

She's a child. A frightened child who is angry she got caught.



> Not from in-laws or at least not directly. Official version is that they're terribly sorry and support me but also want the best for their daughter and grandson.


Of course they do. 

Do not count on their support though. It will likely be fleeting, or become at least grudging.


----------



## Marduk

Hantei said:


> Of course I have. Perhaps I have not clearly explained the reasons and I'm not feeling like stripping my mind down anymore TBH.


You don't owe her any answers.

I 100% guarantee if the roles were reversed, you'd be the devil.


----------



## Dyokemm

Hantei,

I sent you a PM.....but it doesn't show in my sent messages for some reason.

Did you receive it?


----------



## AkaHantei

Sorry for some reason I can't logon anymore. Wrote to admin, no response.

My apologies for breaking rukes. 
Just wanted to thank you all if I get banned for this.

Hantei


----------



## Marc878

AkaHantei said:


> Sorry for some reason I can't logon anymore. Wrote to admin, no response.
> 
> My apologies for breaking rukes.
> Just wanted to thank you all if I get banned for this.
> 
> Hantei


You have to reset your password. everyone had the same problem


----------



## syhoybenden

Hantei, check out the notice in fine print at the top of the page just below the header. They want you to make a stronger password.


----------



## syhoybenden

Say Hantei, that wouldn't be your wife over at SI/Wayward/losteverything16 would it?


----------



## Tron

syhoybenden said:


> Say Hantei, that wouldn't be your wife over at SI/Wayward/losteverything16 would it?


Nice find syh. That does look eerily similar.


----------



## TDSC60

Marc878 said:


> You have to reset your password. everyone had the same problem


Took me 3 days of trying to logon and getting my account locked before I finally figured out what was happening.


----------



## Dyokemm

syhoybenden said:


> Say Hantei, that wouldn't be your wife over at SI/Wayward/losteverything16 would it?


That was what my PM to him was about.

IMO it is obviously her based on the details she has divulged in her posts.


----------



## TDSC60

AkaHantei said:


> Sorry for some reason I can't logon anymore. Wrote to admin, no response.
> 
> My apologies for breaking rukes.
> Just wanted to thank you all if I get banned for this.
> 
> Hantei


I don't think you got banned. It is the password reset that is required as others said. I wrote to Admin also and got a link to a password reset page that did not work. Probably because I am "computer challenged" and did it wrong.

If you do not get your password reset on your old username "Hantei", just keep posting as "AkaHantei".

I think you are on the right path with getting D. I am very much pro-marriage and probably would be telling you to consider R if it were not for the totally horrendous way your wife acted right after you discovered the affair.


----------



## TDSC60

Dyokemm said:


> That was what my PM to him was about.
> 
> IMO it is obviously her based on the details she has divulged in her posts.


I think it is her without question since she says it was her mother who set her up with OM.


----------



## Dyokemm

TDSC60 said:


> I think it is her without question since she says it was her mother who set her up with OM.


That and how she says in 10 more months she will be D (Hantei has said he's in Austrailia and there is a year waiting period) and how she said POSOM disappeared after she reached out to him after DDay 'for support'.....plus she admitted she said said she told BH she was going with OM after being caught, and BH just shrugged his shoulder's and said "have a good life".....basically what Hantei shared here that he did after catching her.

The posters there don't seem to be coddling her much, and telling her to focus on fixing herself as she may well have lost her BH for good, and to not try to chase her BH begging....but instead show ACTIONS that she is becoming a safer partner.

Basically some good advice.


----------



## GusPolinski

I've been reading through some of the threads at SI over the past couple of days and HOLY CRAP... I just can't believe what some BS's (mostly BHs) will tolerate.

Those poor, spineless saps.

And wow... the waywards are such freaking babies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

GusPolinski said:


> I've been reading through some of the threads at SI over the past couple of days and HOLY CRAP... I just can't believe what some BS's (mostly BHs) will tolerate.
> 
> Those poor, spineless saps.
> 
> And wow... the waywards are such freaking babies.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you think that's bad go and take a peak at the MB board. It'll make your eyes bleed.


----------



## GusPolinski

3putt said:


> If you think that's bad go and take a peak at the MB board. It'll make your eyes bleed.


No thanks. Had to stop reading SI.

And those stop signs...

What a bunch of f*cking babies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame

The alarming majority of terrible stories over at SI are BW's. Look at the the LTA board, but approach with caution. Most of the stories of callousness and abuse there are of WH's re their BW's. TAM is heavier on the BH side statistically.

(Whenever I read at SI I want to reach through the screen and kidnap the BS until he/she is out of the betrayed fog. It's very, very thick there.)


----------



## AkaHantei

TDSC60 said:


> I don't think you got banned. It is the password reset that is required as others said. I wrote to Admin also and got a link to a password reset page that did not work. Probably because I am "computer challenged" and did it wrong.
> 
> If you do not get your password reset on your old username "Hantei", just keep posting as "AkaHantei".
> 
> I think you are on the right path with getting D. I am very much pro-marriage and probably would be telling you to consider R if it were not for the totally horrendous way your wife acted right after you discovered the affair.


I can't reset because my old email associated with the account somehow got disabled. Wrote to admins with new email, will be using this account until my old one is restored or I get banned.


----------



## AkaHantei

TDSC60 said:


> I think it is her without question since she says it was her mother who set her up with OM.


Oh...well... If that is true... What a f#+=##g circus.


----------



## farsidejunky

AkaHantei said:


> Oh...well... If that is true... What a f#+=##g circus.


It has all the makings of it. The details fit.


----------



## syhoybenden

AkaHantei said:


> I can't reset because my old email associated with the account somehow got disabled. Wrote to admins with new email, will be using this account until my old one is restored or I get banned.


Did you check the spam folder? For some reason that's where my messages got sent.


----------



## NotEasy

syhoybenden said:


> Did you check the spam folder? For some reason that's where my messages got sent.


Certainly check the Spam folder, but my mail service (gmail) didn't get any TAM email for a few days. I guess gmail saw TAMs flood of emails as suspect and blocked them completely.
However like the fine print above says, now they are using a different provider, and finally an email got through to me. So try again.


----------



## TDSC60

AkaHantei said:


> Oh...well... If that is true... What a f#+=##g circus.


Hantei,

A lot of the details you have posted here are on the SI post; her mother setting her up with OM, things she told you after DDay, how she reached out to OM after DDay, how he basically dumped her when he found out that you knew about the affair.

Even with the spin she puts on her behavior, the folks over at SI are telling her the way she acted and the things she said to you were probably the straw that broke the camels back.

They are telling her to accept the D, leave you alone and, work on herself. 

Some folks there have pointed out, rightly so, that R after D will be extra hard because one of the things that has to happen for true R is that everyone who encouraged and supported the affair has to be eliminated from her life. That is next to impossible because her mother was the main supporter of her daughter meeting with OM.


----------



## AkaHantei

NotEasy said:


> Certainly check the Spam folder, but my mail service (gmail) didn't get any TAM email for a few days. I guess gmail saw TAMs flood of emails as suspect and blocked them completely.
> However like the fine print above says, now they are using a different provider, and finally an email got through to me. So try again.


Nothing in my spam folder.


----------



## AkaHantei

If that is the case, I need to consider my options then. One thing is to post here anonymously, the other is to turn this into some sort of public debate.

When I was on this forum long time ago there were threads with both BH and WW. Interesting reading but I'm not sure I'm up to this our know how to handle.




TDSC60 said:


> Hantei,
> 
> A lot of the details you have posted here are on the SI post; her mother setting her up with OM, things she told you after DDay, how she reached out to OM after DDay, how he basically dumped her when he found out that you knew about the affair.
> 
> Even with the spin she puts on her behavior, the folks over at SI are telling her the way she acted and the things she said to you were probably the straw that broke the camels back.
> 
> They are telling her to accept the D, leave you alone and, work on herself.
> 
> Some folks there have pointed out, rightly so, that R after D will be extra hard because one of the things that has to happen for true R is that everyone who encouraged and supported the affair has to be eliminated from her life. That is next to impossible because her mother was the main supporter of her daughter meeting with OM.


----------



## farsidejunky

If it were me, I would request a moderator to move this to the private section.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## AkaHantei

farsidejunky said:


> If it were me, I would request a moderator to move this to the private section.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


... Which I don't have access to anymore


----------



## Nucking Futs

AkaHantei said:


> ... Which I don't have access to anymore


I never got the admin password reset info either but I was able to get back in using the forgot password link. Have you tried that?


----------



## syhoybenden

AkaHantei said:


> ... Which I don't have access to anymore


Send TAM 10 bucks. I think as a forum supporter you get access.


----------



## farsidejunky

AkaHantei said:


> ... Which I don't have access to anymore


True that!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## alte Dame

I don't know if people have alerted her to your thread over here. I hope not. Dueling spouses on different forums doesn't help a situation, in my experience.

Perhaps you could pm a moderator, explain your issue and ask that they waive the post limit to move this to private.

I felt that you were moving forward in as healthy a way as possible, thus your posting less and less frequently. The SI connection will do nothing but stir up drama, in my opinion.

(Fwiw, it does sound like her story. She sounds regretful and full of self-recriminations. She hates her mother, but truth be told, her mother didn't force her to do anything. Sorry you have to deal with this.)


----------



## Palodyne

alte Dame said:


> I don't know if people have alerted her to your thread over here. I hope not. Dueling spouses on different forums doesn't help a situation, in my experience.
> 
> Perhaps you could pm a moderator, explain your issue and ask that they waive the post limit to move this to private.
> 
> I felt that you were moving forward in as healthy a way as possible, thus your posting less and less frequently. The SI connection will do nothing but stir up drama, in my opinion.
> 
> (Fwiw, it does sound like her story. She sounds regretful and full of self-recriminations. She hates her mother, but truth be told, her mother didn't force her to do anything. Sorry you have to deal with this.)


 I also have been following that SI post, it does appear to be her. I also feared someone might tip her off to this post. But so far no one has. I don't think the ones working with her are aware of this post, and I hope it stays that way.

They have been giving her great advice about leaving her husband alone and working on herself and her relationship with her son.

I hope Hantei has a great future, he has definitely earned it.


----------



## AkaHantei

Nucking Futs said:


> I never got the admin password reset info either but I was able to get back in using the forgot password link. Have you tried that?


Yes. Got a message the email address was wrong.


----------



## AkaHantei

Thank you. Dueling on the forum is the last thing I want. For the record I don't like dueling with the spouse at all. Not that I have one ATM.

If my stvxw is posting and getting help in moving through this , getting right advice whatever it may be - great, glad to hear that, but I'd rather stay out.




alte Dame said:


> I don't know if people have alerted her to your thread over here. I hope not. Dueling spouses on different forums doesn't help a situation, in my experience.
> 
> Perhaps you could pm a moderator, explain your issue and ask that they waive the post limit to move this to private.
> 
> I felt that you were moving forward in as healthy a way as possible, thus your posting less and less frequently. The SI connection will do nothing but stir up drama, in my opinion.
> 
> (Fwiw, it does sound like her story. She sounds regretful and full of self-recriminations. She hates her mother, but truth be told, her mother didn't force her to do anything. Sorry you have to deal with this.)


----------



## Vulcan2013

That's a healthy decision.


----------



## 3putt

Nucking Futs said:


> I never got the admin password reset info either but *I was able to get back in using the forgot password link. * Have you tried that?


This is what I had to do as well. But I had to do it about 20-25 times before I finally got the email to reset my password. Persistence is the key, which is sad in its own right, but that's another discussion.


----------



## sokillme

TDSC60 said:


> Hantei,
> 
> A lot of the details you have posted here are on the SI post; her mother setting her up with OM, things she told you after DDay, how she reached out to OM after DDay, how he basically dumped her when he found out that you knew about the affair.
> 
> Even with the spin she puts on her behavior, the folks over at SI are telling her the way she acted and the things she said to you were probably the straw that broke the camels back.
> 
> They are telling her to accept the D, leave you alone and, work on herself.
> 
> Some folks there have pointed out, rightly so, that R after D will be extra hard because one of the things that has to happen for true R is that everyone who encouraged and supported the affair has to be eliminated from her life. That is next to impossible because her mother was the main supporter of her daughter meeting with OM.


Yeah but one poster tried to give her some tough love and in typical SI fashion that poster was called out. The realistic posters get called out more then the cheaters on their. Really I think that site does more harm then good, especially with BS.


----------



## 3putt

sokillme said:


> Yeah but one poster tried to give her some tough love and in typical SI fashion that poster was called out. The realistic posters get called out more then the cheaters on their. Really I think that site does more harm then good, especially with BS.


That's because that site is run by an adulteress and her husband. Not sure *which* husband, but one nonetheless.


----------



## sokillme

3putt said:


> That's because that site is run by an adulteress and her husband. Not sure *which* husband, but one nonetheless.


How do you know that?


----------



## 3putt

sokillme said:


> How do you know that?


It's common knowledge amongst us that have been around these boards for some time.


----------



## farsidejunky

Palodyne said:


> I also have been following that SI post, it does appear to be her. I also feared someone might tip her off to this post. But so far no one has. I don't think the ones working with her are aware of this post, and I hope it stays that way.
> 
> They have been giving her great advice about leaving her husband alone and working on herself and her relationship with her son.
> 
> I hope Hantei has a great future, he has definitely earned it.


I posted on her thread, but the last thing I'm going to do is alert her to this thread.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## AkaHantei

sokillme said:


> Yeah but one poster tried to give her some tough love and in typical SI fashion that poster was called out. The realistic posters get called out more then the cheaters on their. Really I think that site does more harm then good, especially with BS.





farsidejunky said:


> I posted on her thread, but the last thing I'm going to do is alert her to this thread.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I have not and will not read that thread on SI. However based on what I have seen before:


Though love is one thing, name calling, shaming and projecting is another. So I hope that the ones posting to that thread keep this in mind irrespective from are that on TAM or not. Thanks.


----------



## Palodyne

Hey, look. I know there are a lot of SI haters on this board. But I got a lot of good advice and help from them as a betrayed. As for the thread in question here. She is getting sound advice on SI. They are advising her to concentrate on therapy for herself to figure out why she would cheat. They are recommending she concentrate on repairing her relationship with her son. They are calling for her to take full accountability for her actions.

They are making her take full responsibility for cheating on her husband, and when she repeated what she said to her husband after being caught, even though she now says she didn't mean it. They are telling her, she wouldn't have said it if she didn't mean it. She has been cut no slack on SI. I don't want this to be a thread jack, because this thread is for your healing, not hers. But I agree with TDSC60, she is getting good counsel so far.


----------



## Palodyne

AkaHantei said:


> I have not and will not read that thread on SI. However based on what I have seen before:
> 
> 
> Though love is one thing, name calling, shaming and projecting is another. So I hope that the ones posting to that thread keep this in mind irrespective from are that on TAM or not. Thanks.


 She has been treated with total respect, just not allowed to fool herself. No shaming or name calling, it is not allowed on SI. So far she has been getting good advice from some veteran posters.


----------



## farsidejunky

AkaHantei said:


> I have not and will not read that thread on SI. However based on what I have seen before:
> 
> 
> Though love is one thing, name calling, shaming and projecting is another. So I hope that the ones posting to that thread keep this in mind irrespective from are that on TAM or not. Thanks.


It has been respectful, Hantei. Even the more harsh poster simply called her out about what she said to you on dday.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Thomas Quinn

farsidejunky said:


> It has been respectful, Hantei. Even the more harsh poster simply called her out about what she said to you on dday.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Found it also the ones who were "rough" just brought up there were too many "I" and "me" in her story.

It drives her nuts how polite you are with her. 
Sounds like you are at 50,000 feet. :smile2:
Good job and sorry we don't do metric here. :grin2:


----------



## sokillme

AkaHantei said:


> I have not and will not read that thread on SI. However based on what I have seen before:
> 
> 
> Though love is one thing, name calling, shaming and projecting is another. So I hope that the ones posting to that thread keep this in mind irrespective from are that on TAM or not. Thanks.


The post was basically telling her that because of her actions it's no wonder you don't trust her and have moved on. The thing that got called out was someone basically saying that even her first post was all Me Me, not really about what she did to you. (this is paraphrasing). The response was that is what WS is supposed to be, WS talking about themselves as how it relates to the situation. Which was kind of a stupid response, but it wouldn't be the first. The original posters point was she needs to to think about what she has done to you to truly understand remorse.

Overall the responses have been good. 



I just have a bias against SI haven been kicked off there for calling out a WS who kept posting that they were going to tell their husband and how sympathetic they were to all the BS, she got all these positive posts like, have strength, you can do it! After about a week I posted basically, "it's been a week, Sh_t or get off the pot" in so many words, I was banned, and told I was being inappropriate, later the poster left didn't tell the husband and hasn't been on since. 

I don't believe in personally attacking the posters, however I don't believe in mincing words either. Most of them are like spoiled children. Clarity and the truth is like a bright light to a room full of ****roaches. Too often no one in their lives holds up what they are doing or what they have done and puts it in their face. To much of their actions have been allowed to be romanticized. They need the cold water of reality. 

Anyway you should ask the moderators to change you email address of your old account and then reset you password so you can get back into it. Hang in there bud. Whatever you decided you acted with great integrity.

ps----------------

You can't post 'c'ockroaches on the board?

No one look, 

****, damn, hell, ****, ****, ****roaches.


----------



## GusPolinski

sokillme said:


> Yeah but one poster tried to give her some tough love and in typical SI fashion that poster was called out. The realistic posters get called out more then the cheaters on their. Really I think that site does more harm then good, especially with BS.


Yeah, and he was probably booted from the wayward forum pretty quickly afterward.

Well... assuming that the poster in question was indeed a he.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Longtime lurker here, my first post. I have been following this thread with interest.

I'm angered by the way she's sort of rewritten history over at SI. She omitted the fact that she told Hantei he wasn't "enigmatic" and couldn't enlighten people around him like her lover could. That her marriage to Hantei was "choking" her. 

But in her history rewrite, she makes it sound as if her "confusion" caused her to accidentally break up with Hantei. No, there was no confusion. She was crystal clear. She told Hantei he was uninteresting, uninsipiring, and that another man was essentially her soul mate. She's made remarks that she simply cannot walk back. 

But today, instead of examining her stated feelings, she pretends that she never felt that way. Now she tells us there were "NO issues" in the marriage that needed to be addressed. She's lying to SI readers and to herself. She's gone to great effort to convince herself that plan B was plan A all along. She's too immature to even look inside herself and consider the reasons for what she's done. The lying at this point is just adding insult to injury. You'll be moving on to greener pastures, Hantei. Good for you. 

In any case, it seems only a matter of time before someone spills the beans and cross-links the SI thread with this one. Not sure if that's what Hantei wants.


----------



## Be smart

I never visit other forums but today I went there and read some of his wife comments. It is all about her and what she wants. She blames everyone for her Affair.

She was ready to go with OM only if he wanted her. She was ready to leave her son and her Husband for some old boyfriend who she thought is the better man then her Husband. Now when OM dumped her she wants Hantei but she never took responsibility for her own Actions. She blames her mother or Hantei because he would not forgive her. 

Noone forced her to say those painful comments about Hantei or to have Affair. 

You are a good man my friend and one day one lucky Lady will get you.

Stay strong.


----------



## TDSC60

I don't make a habit of visiting SI.

Besides, you can not post cool avatars over there.


----------



## Mike11

Be smart said:


> I never visit other forums but today I went there and read some of his wife comments. It is all about her and what she wants. She blames everyone for her Affair.
> 
> 
> 
> She was ready to go with OM only if he wanted her. She was ready to leave her son and her Husband for some old boyfriend who she thought is the better man then her Husband. Now when OM dumped her she wants Hantei but she never took responsibility for her own Actions. She blames her mother or Hantei because he would not forgive her.
> 
> 
> 
> Noone forced her to say those painful comments about Hantei or to have Affair.
> 
> 
> 
> You are a good man my friend and one day one lucky Lady will get you.
> 
> 
> 
> Stay strong.




I am sorry but this is incorrect that is not what I have read there, indeed she admitted that this is what she said, however she stated clearly that going with the other man was never her intention please do not distort things said this is not serving any one by "bending" content of posts on the other forum 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Mike11 said:


> I am sorry but this is incorrect that is not what I have read there, indeed she admitted that this is what she said, however she stated clearly that going with the other man was never her intention please do not distort things said this is not serving any one by "bending" content of posts on the other forum


Newsflash: Cheaters lie to themselves and others. They rewrite history to paint themselves in a better light. 

Consider reading the first page of this thread, where Hantei's wife tells him she's "choked" in their marriage and needs someone who's "enigmatic" and capable of "enlightening" his partner. If that's not the statement of a woman who's already checked out, then I don't know what is.


----------



## Tron

It looks to me that she is slowly starting to realize that her actions have had serious consequences, that she no longer has any control over the relationship with Hantei and that her marriage and Hantei are gone. She has understandably been rocked to her core and is only now seeing the disaster she has created. Her situation looks hopeless. It is quite sad really. 

She says she had a good M and she never saw a future with the OM. So, which man was Plan A or Plan B...who knows? 

She also says she doesn't know why she went for a romp with the OM either. And frankly that, to me, is what she needs to figure out. 

We have the benefit of seeing the story from both sides. Hantei is clear, outspoken and more descriptive in his thoughts. She doesn't seem to talk a lot, so maybe that is why you think she isn't being honest. I don't think she is being honest with herself. And if she isn't in IC already, hasn't started reading, etc. then she hasn't been challenged to do very much digging. She's getting stone cold from Hantei so he isn't helping much either (not that he is obligated to do that anyway).

Clearly self-awareness isn't her strong suit. She relies on others too much. Too emotional. We will see if she is able to listen and better herself.


----------



## Mike11

"Newsflash" ? Pffffffft I am dying here (not) 

it is one thing to "assume"something based on your perceived behavior of someone else and write as an assumption 

then to "quote" something that was never really said by someone as something this person did say, it is called Slender 

Ber careful in your "quotes" it may be true that she cheated and cheaters do have these behaviors but there is a difference in showing up here in this forum and "quoting" someone on words this person never said 

Please spare me your mind games.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Mike11,

Some clarifications:
"Slender" is actually a word we use for people who diet and exercise.
"Slander" is a word we use for spoken statements that defame someone.
The word you were looking for is "libel."

I assure you that I exhibit none of the 3 behaviors listed above. My quotes were taken from Hantei's account on the first page of this thread. Again, I encourage you to read it.


----------



## TDSC60

While she did admit to speaking the most hurtful comments possible when confronted, the one thing that stands out to me is that she says she reached out to OM for "support" only on DDay, and he responded by running. She says she knows no one will believe her. She is right. That statement makes no sense at all. It is painfully obvious that, at the time she said those things to Hantai, she meant them. And I think if OM had been the least bit supportive and accepting of her new "single" status, she would still be with him.

Hantei you are doing well and on the right track. She is, and always will be the mother of your son. Nothing can change that. But your new life is now beginning. Do not let her stupidity affect you any more than it already has.


----------



## Mike11

Tatsuhiko said:


> Mike11,
> 
> Some clarifications:
> "Slender" is actually a word we use for people who diet and exercise.
> "Slander" is a word we use for spoken statements that defame someone.
> The word you were looking for is "libel."
> 
> I assure you that I exhibit none of the 3 behaviors listed above. My quotes were taken from Hantei's account on the first page of this thread. Again, I encourage you to read it.




I have read both threads, believe me I am able to read and understand, you misquoted the poster on the SI forum it is as simple as that, playing with words will not change that fact, and being condescending smart [email protected]#@s won't offend me or change any of the facts either.

Please stop, it does not serve any purpose, I have been here in these forums enough to see and understand cheater behaviour ( and experienced it myself) so please don't lecture me on this subject.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Mike11,

In my post, I provided only 2 quotations from her SI posts:

1) "confusion", which appears on her 2nd post as a reason for leaving Hantei.
2) "NO issues", which appears in reference to her marriage on her 3rd post. 

The quotations are accurate, given with proper context, and plainly readable. Nothing was misquoted.


----------



## Be smart

Mike11 said:


> I am sorry but this is incorrect that is not what I have read there, indeed she admitted that this is what she said, however she stated clearly that going with the other man was never her intention please do not distort things said this is not serving any one by "bending" content of posts on the other forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No way my friend. Please go read Page two on her thread. She keeps saying what she wants from her future or this Marriage. In one of the posts she said Hantei could not understand her and all she wants is to be happy once again. 

She never asked herself what would make Hantei happy. She blames her mother for her Affair and she says she got no clue why she went for OM but she told her Husband that OM is better man then he is in every way. 

She is really smart and she belived she could have this Affair and run out with OM but when he dumped her she thought Hantei will take her back and move forward like nothing happend. This is what she wants. 

Saying that she hates her mother now is another BIG LIE. She is living with her mother and still sharing or listening her "good advices".


----------



## Nucking Futs

Be smart said:


> No way my friend. Please go read Page two on her thread. She keeps saying what she wants from her future or this Marriage. In one of the posts she said Hantei could not understand her and all she wants is to be happy once again.
> 
> She never asked herself what would make Hantei happy. She blames her mother for her Affair and she says she got no clue why she went for OM but she told her Husband that OM is better man then he is in every way.
> 
> She is really smart and she belived she could have this Affair and run out with OM but when he dumped her she thought Hantei will take her back and move forward like nothing happend. This is what she wants.
> 
> Saying that she hates her mother now is another BIG LIE. She is living with her mother and still sharing or listening her "good advices".


How about you guys taking it to pm.


----------



## farsidejunky

Nucking Futs said:


> How about you guys taking it to pm.


Quoted for emphasis.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Malaise

FSJ

You gave her good advice about therapy but I don't think she's listening.


----------



## Malaise

Therapy is hard. I've been there. You have to confront yourself and all of the nasty crap rolling around in your head. She may be too afraid to be honest with herself.


----------



## bankshot1993

While I understand everybody's interest in this story and need for new information, I think out of respect for H it would be best that any discussion of his wife's thread be taken off here.

We are being a little hypocritical to preach detachment and then spend days waving his wife's side of the story under his nose on his thread.

H is going through a very difficult time and has the challenge of having to steele himself for the tough times ahead. Adding emotional catalysts and unwanted information will only make it harder for him.


----------



## Tron

Malaise said:


> Therapy is hard. I've been there. You have to confront yourself and all of the nasty crap rolling around in your head. She may be too afraid to be honest with herself.


Maybe so, but lets give her a chance. As you say, it is hard. I'd like to see her wake up and get herself together. 

Because ultimately, even after the D is finished, that will be good for everyone involved.


----------



## TBT

Is this 100% Hantei's wife? Did she or he say that,or is it just an assumption?


----------



## TDSC60

TBT said:


> Is this 100% Hantei's wife? Did she or he say that,or is it just an assumption?


Maybe - maybe not. Nothing is 100% on the internet.

Regardless, I agree with others that this discussion of what the person on SI is posting does not benefit Hantei and he has asked that we not deride that person on this thread.

We should acknowledge his wishes and stop the discussion of what is being said on SI.

This is Hantei's space for support. He can read her thread on SI if he cares to do so. He does not need us to tell him what is being said there. It does not help him.


----------



## AkaHantei

Thank you guys. I don't know for sure if she is really posting and not going to ask her. This is awkward. Considering my next steps ATM. 
But I couldn't stop myself from reading your posts. Please note as I mentioned a while ago that sort of therapy or counseling is not a mainstream here.

On a positive note 2 out of 3 pipeline deals I mentioned before did come through so in 6-12 months I can retire. Feel somehow sad as we used to have so many plans for this.


----------



## TDSC60

AkaHantei said:


> Thank you guys. I don't know for sure if she is really posting and not going to ask her. This is awkward. Considering my next steps ATM.
> But I couldn't stop myself from reading your posts. Please note as I mentioned a while ago that sort of therapy or counseling is not a mainstream here.
> 
> On a positive note 2 out of 3 pipeline deals I mentioned before did come through so in 6-12 months I can retire. Feel somehow sad as we used to have so many plans for this.


It is normal to feel sad as an event that was planned and anticipated by you both approaches. It is normal to grieve the loss of the marriage and the person you thought was your faithful wife. 

I think you understand that what she has done is all on her. Maybe there were problems in the marriage that were not dealt with, but her decision to bring another person into your life and cheat is her responsibility 100%. Unfortunately you and your son also have to deal with the consequences of her actions.

How is your son doing? I know you said he was a teenager, but counseling might help him deal. For you also.


----------



## TX-SC

AkaHantei said:


> Thank you guys. I don't know for sure if she is really posting and not going to ask her. This is awkward. Considering my next steps ATM.
> But I couldn't stop myself from reading your posts. Please note as I mentioned a while ago that sort of therapy or counseling is not a mainstream here.
> 
> On a positive note 2 out of 3 pipeline deals I mentioned before did come through so in 6-12 months I can retire. Feel somehow sad as we used to have so many plans for this.


How's that boat?


----------



## AkaHantei

TDSC60 said:


> How is your son doing? I know you said he was a teenager, but counseling might help him deal. For you also.


Thanks for asking. He is doing ok. Affected but ok. Keeping him busy (see below) and slightly spoiled  

Have a hope therapy is not required for him. For me - I know it's irrational - its akin of giving up. So thanks but no thanks for now. 



TX-SC said:


> How's that boat?


Now to the important matter  its arrived and after a lot of customs issues it's finally with an outfitter. Sold my old one. Sad but symbolic.

Getting my son to do a handiwork on it with me. He sucks at trades  but loves it. Managed to place, mark and pilot drill all rod holders on his own (which is not too easy) with no issues. Posting selfies of himself with tools, knee pads and goggles.


----------



## TX-SC

AkaHantei said:


> Thanks for asking. He is doing ok. Affected but ok. Keeping him busy (see below) and slightly spoiled
> 
> Have a hope therapy is not required for him. For me - I know it's irrational - its akin of giving up. So thanks but no thanks for now.
> 
> 
> 
> Now to the important matter  its arrived and after a lot of customs issues it's finally with an outfitter. Sold my old one. Sad but symbolic.
> 
> Getting my son to do a handiwork on it with me. He sucks at trades  but loves it. Managed to place, mark and pilot drill all rod holders on his own (which is not too easy) with no issues. Posting selfies of himself with tools, knee pads and goggles.


Awesome! Great way to spend time with the son. I bet it's a sweet boat. What make/model did you get?


----------



## AkaHantei

TX-SC said:


> Awesome! Great way to spend time with the son. I bet it's a sweet boat. What make/model did you get?


Ended up with Edgewater CC 24 footer. Wanted different brand initially but they had issues with local warranty on the hull.


----------



## TX-SC

AkaHantei said:


> Ended up with Edgewater CC 24 footer. Wanted different brand initially but they had issues with local warranty on the hull.












Something like this?


----------



## NotEasy

Talking about therapy...


AkaHantei said:


> ... For me - I know it's irrational - *its akin of giving up. *So thanks but no thanks for now.


That is such an Aussie male answer. I would probably say the same. The answer or change is already inside me and if I haven't got the balls to get it then therapy is giving up. Not rational, but Aussie.

It is so interesting to read different posts about what others learnt in therapy and the effort spent at it. After all this time not understanding it from US TV shows, I think I begin to understand a little, but still not for me.


----------



## AkaHantei

TX-SC said:


> Something like this?


Yep only in Stars and Stripes Blue . Inspired by my US friends including TAM


----------



## TX-SC

So, I realize we are getting off topic here, but being a fisherman myself,, I have to ask... What do you fish for and how? Do you troll, drop line, or cast? What kind of electronics did you outfit it with?


----------



## AkaHantei

TX-SC said:


> So, I realize we are getting off topic here, but being a fisherman myself,, I have to ask... What do you fish for and how? Do you troll, drop line, or cast? What kind of electronics did you outfit it with?


Don't think it's a problem, this is my thread. Let's pretend it's a therapy.

Mainly fish (form my old boat I mean) for ppelagic (kingfish, salmon, bonito, mahi ) and and snapper. With the bigger boat going to add tuna and marlin.
Lures, jigging, trolling and bait.

Haven't made my mind on electronics. Used to have Lowrance but considering Simrad now.


----------



## TX-SC

AkaHantei said:


> Don't think it's a problem, this is my thread. Let's pretend it's a therapy.
> 
> Mainly fish (form my old boat I mean) for ppelagic (kingfish, salmon, bonito, mahi ) and and snapper. With the bigger boat going to add tuna and marlin.
> Lures, jigging, trolling and bait.
> 
> Haven't made my mind on electronics. Used to have Lowrance but considering Simrad now.


That sounds like a load of fun! I live nearly 5 hours from the nearest salt water, so I mostly fish for bass, catfish, and panfish from my kayak. I had a 22ft bass boat but it sat up more than it got used so I was constantly pulling the carbs on it. My kayaks can sit in the shed for as long as I need.


----------



## AkaHantei

TX-SC said:


> That sounds like a load of fun! I live nearly 5 hours from the nearest salt water, so I mostly fish for bass, catfish, and panfish from my kayak. I had a 22ft bass boat but it sat up more than it got used so I was constantly pulling the carbs on it. My kayaks can sit in the shed for as long as I need.


I leave at the ocean front  Love bass fishing and tried to do that when visiting US.


----------



## JohnA

Actually this board is therapy lite. Therapist have a bad rep because a lot deserve it. To many are touchy feelly let's all get along. I say bull let's fix the issues. 

I think the biggest mistake is that MC think fix the issues in the marriage the adultety issues go away. Wrong the only way to address the marriage issues is first to address the pile of crap the WS piled onto the marriage issues. 

Have you started to date yet? If not you might want to consider holding off to let things settle more for your son. He needs dad time big time as it has hit him hard. Lonely Husband son is thinking about breaking his engagement due to his mom's adultery. He thought the world of his mom, I get the sense she was a rock to him. He now she her as a piece of clay. 

Finally Hantie you come across as the Steve McQueen of Australia.


----------



## Palodyne

AkaHantei said:


> Don't think it's a problem, this is my thread. Let's pretend it's a therapy.
> 
> Mainly fish (form my old boat I mean) for ppelagic (kingfish, salmon, bonito, mahi ) and and snapper. With the bigger boat going to add tuna and marlin.
> Lures, jigging, trolling and bait.
> 
> Haven't made my mind on electronics. Used to have Lowrance but considering Simrad now.


 Hantei, You will most likely get a good laugh from me. I am from the coal mines of West Virginia, USA. Fishing for the fish you mentioned are scary as hell for us. LOL We are happy if we catch a catfish in the Kanawha River. Continue to teach your boy, as I will mine, maybe someday they will teach others what we have learned. And expand knowledge to everyone after we are gone. Wouldn't that be the greatest honor to us?


----------



## AkaHantei

Palodyne said:


> Hantei, You will most likely get a good laugh from me. I am from the coal mines of West Virginia, USA. Fishing for the fish you mentioned are scary as hell for us. LOL We are happy if we catch a catfish in the Kanawha River. Continue to teach your boy, as I will mine, maybe someday they will teach others what we have learned. And expand knowledge to everyone after we are gone. Wouldn't that be the greatest honor to us?


I'd only say - should be hoping to pass more then just fishing skills. But your are spot on in general my friend.


----------



## Red Sonja

AkaHantei said:


> Yep only in Stars and Stripes Blue . Inspired by my US friends including TAM


Man, I am so jealous ... I do my fishing in a kayak. Nice boat!


----------



## AkaHantei

Red Sonja said:


> Man, I am so jealous ... I do my fishing in a kayak. Nice boat!


Amongst other things I have always had a great respect for ladies who can use tools or do fish (I mean fish not taking sun bath on the front deck  ). So fishing from kayak is great. Solo?

We do have places here that can be accessible by kayak , some nice bass there. Not as big as American.

And yeah this boat made in US. Australia is light years behind in that department.


----------



## farsidejunky

Palodyne said:


> Hantei, You will most likely get a good laugh from me. I am from the coal mines of West Virginia, USA. Fishing for the fish you mentioned are scary as hell for us. LOL We are happy if we catch a catfish in the Kanawha River. Continue to teach your boy, as I will mine, maybe someday they will teach others what we have learned. And expand knowledge to everyone after we are gone. Wouldn't that be the greatest honor to us?


What county, Palodyne? I lived in Charleston and Pineville combined for over 5 years. The wife is a WV girl.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Palodyne

farsidejunky said:


> What county, Palodyne? I lived in Charleston and Pineville combined for over 5 years. The wife is a WV girl.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Oh, wow. We have been on the same turf. I briefly worked at the NAPA store in Pineville in the early 90's.


----------



## Marc878

Born and raised in Putnam county WV. :wink2:


----------



## Absurdist

farsidejunky said:


> What county, Palodyne? I lived in Charleston and Pineville combined for over 5 years. The wife is a WV girl.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk



I always wondered what your problem was and now I know.

Folks, Farside, Palodyne and Marc all burn furniture.

Sorry for the threadjack. Sometimes a little humor is required.


----------



## farsidejunky

Absurdist said:


> I always wondered what your problem was and now I know.
> 
> Folks, Farside, Palodyne and Marc all burn furniture.
> 
> Sorry for the threadjack. Sometimes a little humor is required.


It is funny you should mention that, Arb. 

Last football season, we purchased a new couch. We put our old one up on Craigs List. We got ZERO hits.

So, my wife took a different tactic. She wrote up the CL listing as if the couch were being held hostage, and unless the ransom of whatever we were asking for was paid, it would die a fiery death after an undisclosed Mountaineer win. ZERO hits...

Also at the time, a daughter of a friend of ours was seriously injured in a hit and run accident. So my wife started a Gofundme for the girl, and we promised to burn the couch if enough funds were raised to help offset medical costs.

Well...we fell short of the goal, which was $800...and the couch still died a fiery death in our rural Tennessee front yard. 

Not only that, the video evidence was uploaded to Youtube... lol

Maybe we are a bit crazy...


----------



## Red Sonja

AkaHantei said:


> Amongst other things I have always had a great respect for ladies who can use tools or do fish (I mean fish not taking sun bath on the front deck  ). So fishing from kayak is great. Solo?
> 
> We do have places here that can be accessible by kayak , some nice bass there. Not as big as American.
> 
> And yeah this boat made in US. Australia is light years behind in that department.


Yep, solo ... I have single seat sit-on-top Kayak that I modified for fishing. I modified it to accommodate a home-made bait tank, GPS, fish-finder and various pole holders. I fish near the Pacific kelp forests off the coast of California. Usually I'm after yellow tail, but I catch and release all sorts of creatures, when I can manage to keep the sea lions from stealing my bait that is.


----------



## farsidejunky

Great white territory, RS. I use to surf Northern Cali.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

JohnA said:


> Actually this board is therapy lite. Therapist have a bad rep because a lot deserve it. To many are touchy feelly let's all get along. I say bull let's fix the issues.
> 
> I think the biggest mistake is that MC think fix the issues in the marriage the adultety issues go away. Wrong the only way to address the marriage issues is first to address the pile of crap the WS piled onto the marriage issues.
> 
> Have you started to date yet? If not you might want to consider holding off to let things settle more for your son. He needs dad time big time as it has hit him hard. Lonely Husband son is thinking about breaking his engagement due to his mom's adultery. He thought the world of his mom, I get the sense she was a rock to him. He now she her as a piece of clay.
> 
> Finally Hantie you come across as the Steve McQueen of Australia.


 I picture Mick Dundee!


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Absurdist said:


> farsidejunky said:
> 
> 
> 
> What county, Palodyne? I lived in Charleston and Pineville combined for over 5 years. The wife is a WV girl.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I always wondered what your problem was and now I know.
> 
> Folks, Farside, Palodyne and Marc all burn furniture.
> 
> Sorry for the threadjack. Sometimes a little humor is required.
Click to expand...

Burning furniture is therapeutic to say the least.


----------



## farsidejunky

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Burning furniture is therapeutic to say the least.


So is throwing batteries at Pitt fans at Mountaineer Field.

>


----------



## john117

The Far Family 😂


----------



## farsidejunky

john117 said:


> The Far Family 😂


Almost! One too many kids and way short on the four legged critters... lol

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Be smart

Hantei you sound a lot happier when you talk about other things like your boat,fishing and your Son. Maybe this could be your therapy,you know just to put your mind on something else. 
Your Son is doing great I have to admit. He is strong fella considering he is 15 if I remember corectly. 

Stay strong my friend.


----------



## JohnA

Hi, 

You mentioned a couple of pages ago a next step. What is the next step?


----------



## just got it 55

AkaHantei said:


> Thanks for asking. He is doing ok. Affected but ok. Keeping him busy (see below) and slightly spoiled
> 
> Have a hope therapy is not required for him. For me - I know it's irrational - its akin of giving up. So thanks but no thanks for now.
> 
> 
> 
> Now to the important matter  its arrived and after a lot of customs issues it's finally with an outfitter. Sold my old one. Sad but symbolic.
> 
> Getting my son to do a handiwork on it with me. He sucks at trades  but loves it. Managed to place, mark and pilot drill all rod holders on his own (which is not too easy) with no issues. Posting selfies of himself with tools, knee pads and goggles.


Love it H Real Man Stuff

55


----------



## AkaHantei

Be smart said:


> Hantei you sound a lot happier when you talk about other things like your boat,fishing and your Son. Maybe this could be your therapy,you know just to put your mind on something else.
> Your Son is doing great I have to admit. He is strong fella considering he is 15 if I remember corectly.
> 
> Stay strong my friend.


You are correct. I am happy about these things. This marriage mess can't take them from me.



JohnA said:


> Hi,
> 
> You mentioned a couple of pages ago a next step. What is the next step?


If I should stop posting here if it is my STBXW is posting on other forum and our threads get linked.



just got it 55 said:


> Love it H Real Man Stuff
> 
> 55


Thank you.


----------



## Pam

Oh, I have to jump in on the fishing talk! My husband and I used to fish light-tackle off both sides of the Florida Keys; we have caught everything from small yellow-tails to spinner and black-fin sharks. You haven't lived until you have ridden on the cooler box of a bonefish boat going 70 mph across Florida Bay! We would take a bigger boat out into the Atlantic to fish for mahi and other larger species. There was a restaurant in Islamorada that would take your catch and cook it in several different ways; they would bring it out on huge platters decorated with flowers.

Hantei, you are among friends here, I agree with asking a moderator to move you to private since you lost your ID.


----------



## farsidejunky

Pam said:


> Oh, I have to jump in on the fishing talk! My husband and I used to fish light-tackle off both sides of the Florida Keys; we have caught everything from small yellow-tails to spinner and black-fin sharks. You haven't lived until you have ridden on the cooler box of a bonefish boat going 70 mph across Florida Bay! We would take a bigger boat out into the Atlantic to fish for mahi and other larger species. There was a restaurant in Islamorada that would take your catch and cook it in several different ways; they would bring it out on huge platters decorated with flowers.
> 
> Hantei, you are among friends here, I agree with asking a moderator to move you to private since you lost your ID.


And request your password be reset.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## JohnA

Hi, 

If all the paper work is done her knowing you post here might not be a big deal. 

I do hope you continue posting, you might be surprised going forward how many BS it may influence them to stay resolute in their decision to divorce or reconcile.


----------



## LosingHim

All this exciting fishing talk on this thread and here all I do is fish for perch and walleye with my dad on Lake Erie. We occasionally catch a big catfish, but we tend to fish pretty deep and it’s rare to catch them as deep as we fish. The biggest fighters we catch are Sheephead 25-30 inches, sometimes bigger and put up a hell of a fight.


----------



## Marc878

LosingHim said:


> All this exciting fishing talk on this thread and here all I do is fish for perch and walleye with my dad on Lake Erie. We occasionally catch a big catfish, but we tend to fish pretty deep and it’s rare to catch them as deep as we fish. The biggest fighters we catch are Sheephead 25-30 inches, sometimes bigger and put up a hell of a fight.


I hope you do this regularly. It's a very special time for a father.


----------



## LosingHim

Marc878 said:


> I hope you do this regularly. It's a very special time for a father.


As much as I can, I've been fishing with dad since I was 5. 37 now. I rarely ever pass up a chance to fish with my dad. The only times I do is if I have a commitment I can't get out of. 

I've been trying to get him to take me steelhead fishing for years in the early spring or fall but at 70 he's set in his ways and only wants to perch and walleye fish. Maybe this year. Make some new memories.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AkaHantei

Pam said:


> Oh, I have to jump in on the fishing talk! My husband and I used to fish light-tackle off both sides of the Florida Keys; we have caught everything from small yellow-tails to spinner and black-fin sharks. You haven't lived until you have ridden on the cooler box of a bonefish boat going 70 mph across Florida Bay! We would take a bigger boat out into the Atlantic to fish for mahi and other larger species. There was a restaurant in Islamorada that would take your catch and cook it in several different ways; they would bring it out on huge platters decorated with flowers.
> 
> Hantei, you are among friends here, I agree with asking a moderator to move you to private since you lost your ID.


All great stuff. I have a long love story with fishing in US and fishin in the keys in these flashy centre consoles was something l always wanted to do. Always been too busy with each trip. Either business or other activities. 100% will do it next year.




farsidejunky said:


> And request your password be reset.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Gave up on that.



JohnA said:


> Hi,
> 
> If all the paper work is done her knowing you post here might not be a big deal.
> 
> I do hope you continue posting, you might be surprised going forward how many BS it may influence them to stay resolute in their decision to divorce or reconcile.


Not changing my mind since I've made the decision and conditions that led me to to his decision have not changed. But thanks.




LosingHim said:


> All this exciting fishing talk on this thread and here all I do is fish for perch and walleye with my dad on Lake Erie. We occasionally catch a big catfish, but we tend to fish pretty deep and it’s rare to catch them as deep as we fish. The biggest fighters we catch are Sheephead 25-30 inches, sometimes bigger and put up a hell of a fight.


Nice.


----------



## Marc878

I hope you bring your son to the US for some large mouth bass fishing. Be carefull you don't get hooked on it.


----------



## AkaHantei

Marc878 said:


> I hope you bring your son to the US for some large mouth bass fishing. Be carefull you don't get hooked on it.


Been there done that 

Part of the love story.


----------



## TDSC60

I've been away on business for awhile but had to jump in on the fishing. I don't live on the coast but I do live not far from a very large fresh water lake. I just bought a 25 ft Bennington pontoon boat outfitted for fishing. I've got it wet docked at a marina 10 minutes away and I go fishing 2-3 days a week in the afternoons. My daughter (31 yr old) has surprised me by taking to fishing also. My granddaughter also loves it.

Just riding around the lake with my family and stopping into lake side restaurants for lunch is so relaxing and a great way to spend the day.

Large & small mouth bass, white perch, crappie, catfish, stripped bass.

Sounds like you have a plan Hantei. Good luck.


----------



## syhoybenden

So AkaHantei, what are you looking for in the polygraph?

And ..... will it matter to you? or are you so cheesed off that you no longer give a sh1t?


----------



## TDSC60

syhoybenden said:


> So AkaHantei, what are you looking for in the polygraph?
> 
> And ..... will it matter to you? or are you so cheesed off that you no longer give a sh1t?


I don't think he is looking for anything further from his STBXW. Her statements and ACTIONS after he caught her in the affair where enough for him to know that there was no future with her. 

You may be confusing this with another thread.


----------



## bandit.45

AkaHantei said:


> And yeah this boat made in US. Australia is light years behind in that department.


That surprises me. I would think as good as Aussies are at yachting and sailing, that you guys would have the most badass boats on earth.


----------



## bandit.45

syhoybenden said:


> So AkaHantei, what are you looking for in the polygraph?
> 
> And ..... will it matter to you? or are you so cheesed off that you no longer give a sh1t?


Wong twed brudda.....


----------



## farsidejunky

Banned-It.45 said:


> Wong twed brudda.....


Actually, it is not. 

This is a development in the thread on SI.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## AkaHantei

TDSC60 said:


> I've been away on business for awhile but had to jump in on the fishing. I don't live on the coast but I do live not far from a very large fresh water lake. I just bought a 25 ft Bennington pontoon boat outfitted for fishing. I've got it wet docked at a marina 10 minutes away and I go fishing 2-3 days a week in the afternoons. My daughter (31 yr old) has surprised me by taking to fishing also. My granddaughter also loves it.
> 
> Just riding around the lake with my family and stopping into lake side restaurants for lunch is so relaxing and a great way to spend the day.
> 
> Large & small mouth bass, white perch, crappie, catfish, stripped bass.
> 
> Sounds like you have a plan Hantei. Good luck.


Thanks mate. Having the boat so close to home is nice. I chose to limit myself to dry storage only - berthing gets too complex in the saltwater.

Fishing with family is nice good thing, hope my future grandchildren will enjoy it as well.

Yes I do have a plan... Which stretches farther than anyone knows


----------



## AkaHantei

farsidejunky said:


> Actually, it is not.
> 
> This is a development in the thread on SI.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Not sure what are you guys referring to. I assume this has something to do with the fact that my STBXW offered me to take the test - voluntarily?


----------



## AkaHantei

Banned-It.45 said:


> That surprises me. I would think as good as Aussies are at yachting and sailing, that you guys would have the most badass boats on earth.





Banned-It.45 said:


> That surprises me. I would think as good as Aussies are at yachting and sailing, that you guys would have the most badass boats on earth.


Unfortunately what I've stated is true. Sufficient to say I've developed interest in boating when visiting US. In the States the experience was like buying a car. Pick up the brand, model, options and it gets delivered. Back in Oz and it's like renovating your house.


Local industry takes a huge hit because of us imports but unable to match the scale and quality.


----------



## MJJEAN

AkaHantei said:


> Unfortunately what I've stated is true. Sufficient to say I've developed interest in boating when visiting US. In the States the experience was like buying a car. Pick up the brand, model, options and it gets delivered. Back in Oz and it's like renovating your house.
> 
> 
> Local industry takes a huge hit because of us imports but unable to match the scale and quality.


Eh, your local guys will figure it out eventually. You folks from Oz are nothing if not adaptable.


----------



## NotEasy

MJJEAN said:


> Eh, your local guys will figure it out eventually. You folks from Oz are nothing if not adaptable.


Yes, adaptable, but I don't think these will catch much fish. 









They had to cancel this race recently though, too much water. They couldn't adapt to that.


----------



## bandit.45

AkaHantei said:


> Not sure what are you guys referring to. I assume this has something to do with the fact that my STBXW offered me to take the test - voluntarily?


What would she admit to that you don't already know? It's all water under the bridge now. You are moving on. 

she offered because it was her lack of doing anything proactive early on to save the marriage that did away with any chance for R. 

Too little too late.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

Doing what needs to be done at the appropriate time doesn't come naturally to everyone; especially without the benefit of IC/MC, books or other resources...and especially in the face of a spouse telling you that whatever you do doesn't change anything and never will.


----------



## bandit.45

I'm interested to see if she stars dating before the divorce is final. Mommy detest has to be encouraging her to get out and find a new ATM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## syhoybenden

AkaHantei said:


> Not sure what are you guys referring to. I assume this has something to do with the fact that my STBXW offered me to take the test - voluntarily?



So why not let her take the test, if only for to honour the time that you once loved her. I think that she really needs to do this, if only for her own peace of mind. She needs to do this in order for her to be able to move on, knowing that she's given it her last best shot.

For what little my opinion is worth, I think she finally gets it. She now knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that she has made the absolute ultimate biggest dumbass fark-up of her life. 

She has found remorse, and will live with it as a constant companion for the rest of her days.


----------



## farsidejunky

Banned-It.45 said:


> I'm interested to see if she stars dating before the divorce is final. Mommy detest has to be encouraging her to get out and find a new ATM.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think that is going to happen. 

What I am about to say is based on the premise that the SI thread is in fact her. The similarities are too identical to ignore.

She's indicated disgust with her mother, and has moved out from their house. She said that the reasoning as being their attitude that he is the problem for not giving her another chance. She got tired of listening to that and decided to create some distance. But there is a larger dynamic at play, and one that I know she does not recognize. I am unsure about him.

His wife appears to be an emotional submissive. She needs desperately to be led. So strong are her apparent submissive traits that she struggles to do much without being led. It is a large part of how she ended up in this situation, when she decided to start listening to her mother.

There's a lot of painting going on with her being money-grubbing, or various other things. What it comes down to is she is emotionally submissive.

Make no mistake, this is not some sort of substantiation for reconciliation. In fact, I know many men who have no interest in a relationship with this type of woman. That said, there could be a ton of potential for a strong marriage again, but it would require some development on his part in order to understand the dynamic, and in turn help to develop her.

Hantei, if you want to explore this, say so, then I and a few others could give you some guidance. If not, disregard. 

I think you have an opportunity for true reconciliation here, brother. Ask around. I don't throw that out lightly.

Take care, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## syhoybenden

farsidejunky said:


> I don't think that is going to happen.
> 
> What I am about to say is based on the premise that the SI thread is in fact her. The similarities are too identical to ignore.
> 
> She's indicated disgust with her mother, and has moved out from their house. She said that the reasoning as being their attitude that he is the problem for not giving her another chance. She got tired of listening to that and decided to create some distance. But there is a larger dynamic at play, and one that I know she does not recognize. I am unsure about him.
> 
> His wife appears to be an emotional submissive. She needs desperately to be led. So strong are her apparent submissive traits that she struggles to do much without being led. It is a large part of how she ended up in this situation, when she decided to start listening to her mother.
> 
> There's a lot of painting going on with her being money-grubbing, or various other things. What it comes down to is she is emotionally submissive.
> 
> Make no mistake, this is not some sort of substantiation for reconciliation. In fact, I know many men who have no interest in a relationship with this type of woman. That said, there could be a ton of potential for a strong marriage again, but it would require some development on his part in order to understand the dynamic, and in turn help to develop her.
> 
> Hantei, if you want to explore this, say so, then I and a few others could give you some guidance. If not, disregard.
> 
> I think you have an opportunity for true reconciliation here, brother. Ask around. I don't throw that out lightly.
> 
> Take care, brother.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk



:iagree:


----------



## bandit.45

farsidejunky said:


> There's a lot of painting going on with her being money-grubbing, or various other things. What it comes down to is she is emotionally submissive.
> 
> Make no mistake, this is not some sort of substantiation for reconciliation. In fact, I know many men who have no interest in a relationship with this type of woman. That said, there could be a ton of potential for a strong marriage again, *but it would require some development on his part in order to understand the dynamic,* and in turn help to develop her.


To me this would be like becoming *jld*'s husband: where he basically accepts all responsibility for all her bad decisions and actions. 

Mmmm...no.

I get the feeling, and I have from the beginning, that the affair was simply a deal breaker for him. He is not going to stay with a woman who defiled herself with another man. And that is okay.


----------



## farsidejunky

Banned-It.45 said:


> To me this would be like becoming *jld*'s husband: where he basically accepts all responsibility for all her bad decisions and actions.
> 
> Mmmm...no.
> 
> I get the feeling, and I have from the beginning, that the affair was simply a deal breaker for him. He is not going to stay with a woman who defiled herself with another man. And that is okay.


I agree with deal breakers.

However, some people live in denial the other way, in that they refuse to consider R even though they wish they could.

As for JLD and her husband, I am very familiar with their dynamic. Theirs is a more extreme example.

I see his wife as a deep sub, but it would not have to be nearly as in-depth as what you are alluding to.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Tron

FSJ,

That was really a fantastic, well though out post. And I think you are on to something.

I believe that she is really willing to do whatever is required with complete enthusiastic commitment, but as you say she needs some leadership to get her there. 

It is worth noting that she is wise enough to recognize that she won't find that in her FOO.


----------



## bandit.45

farsidejunky said:


> I agree with deal breakers.
> 
> However, some people live in denial the other way, in that they refuse to consider R even though they wish they could.
> 
> As for JLD and her husband, I am very familiar with their dynamic. Theirs is a more extreme example.
> 
> I see his wife as a deep sub, but it would not have to be nearly as in-depth as what you are alluding to.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I couldn't deal with that. I don't have the time in my life to be a babysitter to a wife.


----------



## Tron

Banned-It.45 said:


> To me this would be like becoming *jld*'s husband: where he basically accepts all responsibility for all her bad decisions and actions.
> 
> Mmmm...no.
> 
> I get the feeling, and I have from the beginning, that the affair was simply a deal breaker for him. He is not going to stay with a woman who defiled herself with another man. And that is okay.


I don't think it's right to paint that type of relationship with a single brush.

And I don't think she is asking him to accept responsibility for her bad decisions. She seemed to take ownership of that pretty well already.

As for Hantei and this type of D/S relationship, he has the opportunity to mold it however he wants...if he wants. 

Thing is, if she has not come to accept this about herself, getting there without any help, i.e. IC might be a bit difficult.

Whether this appeals to Hantei, only he knows...


----------



## bandit.45

AkaHantei said:


> Yep only in Stars and Stripes Blue . Inspired by my US friends including TAM


Looks like Dexter's boat. 

You aren't like some kind of secret serial killer are you?


----------



## Marc878

Banned-It.45 said:


> What would she admit to that you don't already know? It's all water under the bridge now. You are moving on.
> 
> she offered because it was her lack of doing anything proactive early on to save the marriage that did away with any chance for R.
> 
> Too little too late.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hantei seems comfortable with his choice to move on. There is no guarantee that in the case of infidelity there's an automatic second chance given. That's the chance you take when you screw around.

Do overs are iffy at best.


----------



## bandit.45

Marc878 said:


> Hantei seems comfortable with his choice to move on. There is no guarantee that in the case of infidelity there's an automatic second chance given. That's the chance you take when you screw around.
> 
> *Do overs are iffy at bes*t.


Yep. 

Go to SI or even here and look up stories from BSs who made the choice to reconcile. Males usually end up regretting their decision after five to ten years or so. They grow to find that it was a bad choice because when they are no longer panicking and trying to save the relationship, and after dust settles and the smoke clears, they can objectively and clearly see just how their wives' infidelities were a deal-breaker. Most men cannot get past it. 

I see it again and again and again... which is why I am not an advocate for R after adultery. You are just setting yourself up to fail down the road.


----------



## JohnA

@farside interesting insight. I think you are onto something.


----------



## AkaHantei

Banned-It.45 said:


> What would she admit to that you don't already know? It's all water under the bridge now. You are moving on.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is reasonably close to what I told her. You see I do believe the story she told me and that there are no more hidden "gems". So why would I push her to go through all that humiliation (and it is as well as questions she's prepared are very humiliating make no mistake) if it changes nothing in the end?



syhoybenden said:


> So why not let her take the tes t, if only for to honour the time that you once loved her. I think that she really needs to do this, if only for her own peace of mind. She needs to do this in order for her to be able to move on, knowing that she's given it her last best shot.
> .


Hmm. This is the aspect I've NOT thought through. That she may be better off doing the test and that she may need it just for herself.


----------



## sokillme

AkaHantei said:


> Hmm. This is the aspect I've thought through. That she may be better off doing the test and that she may need it just for herself.


Just don't give her false hope. 

You are doing the right thing, never be someones back up plan. Things will get better for you. 

By the way the dude is married did you inform the spouse?


----------



## bandit.45

I went to SI and read her posts. Sorry Hantei. 

Anyways, it was mostly b!tching and moaning about how she has to actually work to support herself instead of working for enjoyment... how her life sucks now. 

I do not understand self destructive people, especially when the self destruction had no other cause except pure selfishness. She can't even blame it on childhood sexual abuse, bad self-image, poor self-esteem, or the myriad of other reasons waywards give for doing what they do. 

The pointlessness of what she did is what makes this particular story so sad. She threw her good life away for a few cheap orgasms with an idiot.


----------



## Tron

Banned-It.45 said:


> The pointlessness of what she did is what makes this particular story so sad.


Agreed.



Banned-It.45 said:


> She threw her good life away for a few cheap orgasms with an idiot.


An all too common affliction, unfortunately.


----------



## farsidejunky

AkaHantei said:


> This is reasonably close to what I told her. You see I do believe the story she told me and that there are no more hidden "gems". So why would I push her to go through all that humiliation (and it is as well as questions she's prepared are very humiliating make no mistake) if it changes nothing in the end?
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. This is the aspect I've thought through. That she may be better off doing the test and that she may need it just for herself.


It's not for you.

It's for her.

ETA: I see you see that. I posted too soon.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## AkaHantei

farsidejunky said:


> She's indicated disgust with her mother, and has moved out from their house. She said that the reasoning as being their attitude that he is the problem for not giving her another chance. She got tired of listening to that and decided to create some distance. But there is a larger dynamic at play, and one that I know she does not recognize. I am unsure about him.
> 
> His wife appears to be an emotional submissive. She needs desperately to be led. So strong are her apparent submissive traits that she struggles to do much without being led. It is a large part of how she ended up in this situation, when she decided to start listening to her mother.
> 
> There's a lot of painting going on with her being money-grubbing, or various other things. What it comes down to is she is emotionally submissive.
> 
> Make no mistake, this is not some sort of substantiation for reconciliation. In fact, I know many men who have no interest in a relationship with this type of woman. That said, there could be a ton of potential for a strong marriage again, but it would require some development on his part in order to understand the dynamic, and in turn help to develop her.
> 
> Hantei, if you want to explore this, say so, then I and a few others could give you some guidance. If not, disregard.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Some comments here. Correct she's moved out of her parents and got full time job. Yes I've been hinted being an a$$ - not by her- for not giving a chance. Hey at times I feel like that myself. No, she's not money grabbing, very opposite. If someone is trying to suggest that (from our circle I mean) I'll find out and we will have words.

Yes I would lke you to elaborate please.


----------



## AkaHantei

sokillme said:


> Just don't give her false hope.
> 
> You are doing the right thing, never be someones back up plan. Things will get better for you.
> 
> By the way the dude is married did you inform the spouse?


What? It's that from the other forum?

I missed that this morning.


----------



## AkaHantei

Banned-It.45 said:


> Looks like Dexter's boat.
> 
> You aren't like some kind of secret serial killer are you?


Uh no .Absolutely no. Why are your asking? Well...no.


----------



## AkaHantei

Banned-It.45 said:


> I couldn't deal with that. I don't have the time in my life to be a babysitter to a wife.


Wrong she's not. I hope she's not now.


----------



## AkaHantei

farsidejunky said:


> It's not for you.
> 
> It's for her.
> 
> ETA: I see you see that. I posted too soon.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I meant to say "NOT thought through". I got the point and will make the decision wrt the poly.


----------



## becareful2

Banned-It.45 said:


> I went to SI and read her posts. Sorry Hantei.
> 
> Anyways, it was mostly b!tching and moaning about how she has to actually work to support herself instead of working for enjoyment... how her life sucks now.


Have to disagree with this. It's about one or two sentences about this and only very recently. She talked mostly about the destruction she caused and how she desperately wants to save her marriage.


----------



## farsidejunky

AkaHantei said:


> What? It's that from the other forum?
> 
> I missed that this morning.


Yes, this is from the other forum. She evidently just found that out recently.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## syhoybenden

page 5. bottom entry from the eleventh. last paragraph


----------



## syhoybenden

I wonder if it's possible to dislocate a hip joint while trying to kick oneself in the ass?


----------



## farsidejunky

AkaHantei said:


> Some comments here. Correct she's moved out of her parents and got full time job. Yes I've been hinted being an a$$ - not by her- for not giving a chance. Hey at times I feel like that myself. No, she's not money grabbing, very opposite. If someone is trying to suggest that (from our circle I mean) I'll find out and we will have words.
> 
> Yes I would lke you to elaborate please.


Hantei, there is a naivete to your wife. She was suckered by a weak player. She listened to her mom who clearly did not have her best interests. She is sort of like a galleon with a broken mast; just sort of adrift. I suspect she has been that way for much of her life due to an overbearing and controlling mother. That is, until you came along.

I would also bet that she has been emotionally relying on you. Do you find that she frequently has matched your emotions? When you're happy, did she become happy? When you're angry or stressed out, did she also do the same? Is she overly sensitive? In other words, does she have a very strong response to both praise and criticism? Does she depend on you to handle finances, plan for retirement, put together vacations?

Give this article a read and tell me if it sounds like your wife when things were still healthy.

http://www.asubmissivesjourney.com/healthy_submissive.html

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## bandit.45

AkaHantei said:


> Uh no .Absolutely no. Why are your asking? Well...no.


Have you watched Dexter on Showtime? He disposed of the bodies of the people he killed by bagging them up and taking them out to the deep ocean and dumping them. He had a boat that looks just like the one in that picture.


----------



## sokillme

AkaHantei said:


> What? It's that from the other forum?
> 
> I missed that this morning.



Yeah kind of surprised me that she found this out. Says she heard it through the grapevine. I thought if it wasn't you who found out you should know she did.


----------



## bandit.45

sokillme said:


> Yeah kind of surprised me that she found this out. Says she heard it through the grapevine. I thought if it wasn't you who found out you should know she did.


She wouldn't have found out unless she was fishing. If she was staying away from the OM completely, like she claimed she was, wouldn't she be the last to know?


----------



## AkaHantei

I see where you are steering this'and some of your assumptions or observations are correct but in general summarizing it all I'd say No to the sub thing.

E.g. Yes I was planning furnaces and retirement but she was planning vacations. Yes she was happy when I was happy and vice versa- but in my book that is what partners do. Not like she was changing her emotions in a click.

There is a degree of naivete as you pointed - I'm partially responsible for it as I was assuming my duty as man is to shield her and all.

So a lot of correct observations, Yes, but the bottom line is somewhere in between.






farsidejunky said:


> Hantei, there is a naivete to your wife. She was suckered by a weak player. She listened to her mom who clearly did not have her b
> est interests. She is sort of like a galleon with a broken mast; just sort of adrift. I suspect she has been that way for much of her life due to an overbearing and controlling mother. That is, until you came along.
> 
> I would also bet that she has been emotionally relying on you. Do you find that she frequently has matched your emotions? When you're happy, did she become happy? When you're angry or stressed out, did she also do the same? Is she overly sensitive? In other words, does she have a very strong response to both praise and criticism? Does she depend on you to handle finances, plan for retirement, put together vacations?
> 
> Give this article a read and tell me if it sounds like your wife when things were still healthy.
> 
> A submissives journey - The Healthy Submissive
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## AkaHantei

Banned-It.45 said:


> Have you watched Dexter on Showtime? He disposed of the bodies of the people he killed by bagging them up and taking them out to the deep ocean and dumping them. He had a boat that looks just like the one in that picture.


I haven't watched Dexter (heard of it). Anyway my boat arrived this year only so I have an alibi.


----------



## AkaHantei

Banned-It.45 said:


> She wouldn't have found out unless she was fishing. If she was staying away from the OM completely, like she claimed she was, wouldn't she be the last to know?


Think I know where the info is coming from and I'll check. However we are separated and I made it clear she's free to be with him, so if they are in contact so what? Or are you insisting she'll start dating soon?


----------



## farsidejunky

Banned-It.45 said:


> She wouldn't have found out unless she was fishing. If she was staying away from the OM completely, like she claimed she was, wouldn't she be the last to know?


Not necessarily.

It is a leap in logic to say she was seeking out the information when it could have come to her unprompted.


----------



## farsidejunky

AkaHantei said:


> I see where you are steering this'and some of your assumptions or observations are correct but in general summarizing it all I'd say No to the sub thing.
> 
> E.g. Yes I was planning furnaces and retirement but she was planning vacations. Yes she was happy when I was happy and vice versa- but in my book that is what partners do. Not like she was changing her emotions in a click.
> 
> There is a degree of naivete as you pointed - I'm partially responsible for it as I was assuming my duty as man is to shield her and all.
> 
> So a lot of correct observations, Yes, but the bottom line is somewhere in between.


The shielding is a classic sign. Your wife is a sub. A deep sub. She has lost her anchor (you) and is drifting.

This is the last time I will say this, then I will leave it be. I see an opportunity for true reconciliation here. But you would have to be the one to lead it because she is not accustomed to not being shielded. She is lost.

I totally get that she caused this. I also believe her statements to you on dday were a bratty moment, fueled by pride, after being caught. 

This entire situation is just f****** tragic.

Take care, brother.


----------



## GusPolinski

What's w/ all the D/s nonsense?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Palodyne

farsidejunky said:


> The shielding is a classic sign. Your wife is a sub. A deep sub. She has lost her anchor (you) and is drifting.
> 
> This is the last time I will say this, then I will leave it be. I see an opportunity for true reconciliation here. But you would have to be the one to lead it because she is not accustomed to not being shielded. She is lost.
> 
> I totally get that she caused this. I also believe her statements to you on dday were a bratty moment, fueled by pride, after being caught.
> 
> This entire situation is just f****** tragic.
> 
> Take care, brother.


 I disagree. This sub line of thinking you are putting forth almost seems to absolve her of guilt. You seem to be saying it's not her fault, she just lost her anchor. And your telling Hantei that you see the prospect for R, if he is willing to eat the **** sandwich she prepared for him, then take her by the hand and lead her to R. So it's all on Hantei now?

She isn't lost, she knows exactly where she is. And she put herself there not Hantei. And the statements she made to him when she got caught were not bratty. They were cruel!!


----------



## sokillme

AkaHantei said:


> Think I know where the info is coming from and I'll check. However we are separated and I made it clear she's free to be with him, so if they are in contact so what? Or are you insisting she'll start dating soon?


No doesn't sound like that. I think she has remorse and is still waiting for you. I am not sure if she is mature enough yet though. I hope she really works on herself either way. I feel bad for her, but I feel worse for you. You are strong though so I think you will end up alright. I really feel bad for your son. I will never understand how parents with children can do this. Then again my Dad did it. I don't understand that either. :frown2:


----------



## sokillme

farsidejunky said:


> The shielding is a classic sign. Your wife is a sub. A deep sub. She has lost her anchor (you) and is drifting.
> 
> This is the last time I will say this, then I will leave it be. I see an opportunity for true reconciliation here. But you would have to be the one to lead it because she is not accustomed to not being shielded. She is lost.


And if he later gets sick and is unable to lead, or they have financial trouble and he needs to work long hours then what happens. If while he is working a neighbor comes over and starts to lead her. Or when her Mom dies? Doesn't sound like she is a safe spouse to me.

What you have said is his wife is damaged and he should go help her at risk to his own emotional safety again. What has changed from before? Is it just because they have history. He can have history with someone else. 

He has already started to detach and move on so why are you so invested in him getting back with someone who can't be faithful unless her spouse is holding her hand all the time. Is it because you have reconciled?

Stop asking this man to put his emotional safety at risk when he has said over and over he doesn't want to. It is not his responsibly if she is lost, she is lost of her own making. I hope she gets help and learns but not at her BH expense, and he shouldn't be the test subject, he has already suffered enough.


----------



## farsidejunky

Palodyne said:


> I disagree. This sub line of thinking you are putting forth almost seems to absolve her of guilt. You seem to be saying it's not her fault, she just lost her anchor. And your telling Hantei that you see the prospect for R, if he is willing to eat the **** sandwich she prepared for him, then take her by the hand and lead her to R. So it's all on Hantei now?
> 
> She isn't lost, she knows exactly where she is. And she put herself there not Hantei. And the statements she made to him when she got caught were not bratty. They were cruel!!


Your quote almost got it right on the guilt part...and almost right is, um, wrong.

As for her dday comments, think deeper than the hurt they caused.


----------



## bandit.45

AkaHantei said:


> Think I know where the info is coming from and I'll check. However we are separated and I made it clear she's free to be with him, so if they are in contact so what? Or are you insisting she'll start dating soon?


I'm not saying anything. Just speculation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> What's w/ all the D/s nonsense?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know I am not a huge proponent of R after a PA.

I see this one differently.


----------



## farsidejunky

sokillme said:


> And if he later gets sick and is unable to lead, or they have financial trouble and he needs to work long hours then what happens. If while he is working a neighbor comes over and starts to lead her. Or when her Mom dies? Doesn't sound like she is a safe spouse to me.
> 
> What you have said is his wife is damaged and he should go help her at risk to his own emotional safety again. What has changed from before? Is it just because they have history. He can have history with someone else.
> 
> He has already started to detach and move on so why are you so invested in him getting back with someone who can't be faithful unless her spouse is holding her hand all the time. Is it because you have reconciled?
> 
> Stop asking this man to put his emotional safety at risk when he has said over and over he doesn't want to. It is not his responsibly if she is lost, she is lost of her own making. I hope she gets help and learns but not at her BH expense, and he should be the test subject, he has already suffered enough.


This is fair.


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> You know I am not a huge proponent of R after a PA.
> 
> I see this one differently.


You're allowing her poorly-nuanced bullsh*t over on SI to seep into your thought process.

Stop.

Who wants to come home to an absent-minded, soulless automaton incapable of either independent thought or "unanchored" morality?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## syhoybenden

farsidejunky said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> It is a leap in logic to say she was seeking out the information when it could have come to her unprompted.


Consider that there has been a history of third party vindictive meddling here. It could very well be ongoing.


----------



## syhoybenden

I see Hantei's wife and through her Hantei as having been victimized by her dysfunctional family of origin.

Mommy Dearest could not abide the removal of her child from her zone of influence, and so sabotaged her life to bring her back to the fold. This is a psychopathic behaviour. Daughter's happiness never enters into it. Daughter only exists when she services Mommy, and Mommy will not lose that.

Psychopathy is exhibited on a spectrum. I don't think Mommy is a full fledged nor high functioning psychopath but she does exhibit behaviours. From what I've picked up through Hantei's thread I've caught whiffs of it. 
I'm sensitive to this. I came from a dysfunctional family dominated by a high functioning psychopath. Took me 35 years to start to figure out something was wrong with us, 40 before I got a good handle on it.

Hantei, you've had more than one crazy to deal with.


----------



## syhoybenden

Oh, and by "more than one crazy" I mean Mommy Dearest and Spiritually Evolved Lover-Boy.


----------



## TX-SC

I will go out on a limb here and say that I think she is truly remorseful and this is a good candidate for R. But, I also realize that Hantei has been hurt badly and may simply want to move on.


----------



## starlisa

I was just reading your situation and I went through something much similar. I didn't know which way to turn until a very close friend of mines shared some information with me that changed my life. You should check it out!


----------



## Marc878

No matter how you slice and dice this the marriage that was is gone. Finish the divorce. 

IMO I would take the time and see what else is out there when you're ready. A great time to compare notes on what you had versus what you could have. Test the waters like she did.

If in the future if you want to reconnect and she's still available then you could date her and see what happens. If she isn't available then in all probability you would have been a plan B anyway.

It's the perfect time in your life to make it what you want. Why settle for seconds?


----------



## syhoybenden

Hantei to me has always seemed like a smart and together dude. I don't think he really needs any of us telling him what to do.

That being said, I don't think he would be averse to having all possible information at his disposal nor to being suggested ways of looking at things that may not have occurred to him yet.


----------



## Palodyne

farsidejunky said:


> Your quote almost got it right on the guilt part...and almost right is, um, wrong.
> 
> As for her dday comments, think deeper than the hurt they caused.


 I think it is not me, or you, or Hantei, that needs to think deeper, it is her! She said those things to him, and her actions backed them up. Hantei stated he needs to move away from all this to heal and move on. Leave him alone, and let him heal. Good fortune brother.


----------



## sokillme

TX-SC said:


> I will go out on a limb here and say that I think she is truly remorseful and this is a good candidate for R. But, I also realize that Hantei has been hurt badly and may simply want to move on.


So I point you to the same questions I asked farside. Besides her being sorry what makes her a good candidate for R. Considering all that has gone down, what a Sh*t deal it is for the BS and the fact that Hantei is moving on why is this a better choice then starting fresh with someone new?


----------



## Marc878

R is great for the waywards but the BS forever has the affair shoved up their azz.


----------



## NotEasy

I agree that there is a sliver of a possibility of a true R here, given her particular personality/makeup,

HOWEVER

- R will still be painful, with no guarantee of success
- Hantei will be watching her forever, she may drift away again later
- MIL will remain a negative influence, I think MIL still has no regret, she would line up OM2 later
- it sounds like much of her recent story is designed towards R, but she is perhaps just following a script or group think. If so nothing is sure. I haven't read SI.
- any chance of R depends on her personality/makeup changing; but that is seriously hard, especially for someone who just follows. She would agree to change, but is she just agreeing to follow and later she will follow MIL's idea.


The only positives I can see are they had a past love that might perhaps be rebuilt. And I guess she would be more accepting than most women of any conditions, eg, my boat suits the tropics, we are moving. 

This is Hantei call. I think he has already decided D, which is fine.

My only suggestion might be to tell her, "we will D, poly, she will do therapy/read books/whatever, she lives separately, X months after divorce we consider dating, no other promises from you." 

Before going any further than dating I would need a semi-public meeting (Hantei, her, son, MIL, FIL, ...) where she tells MIL what she and MIL did wrong and MIL must listen and accept. A dressing down like this might make MIL see the damage she did and reduce the danger MIL is to the marriage; or it might just make MIL angry, I don't know.


----------



## TX-SC

sokillme said:


> So I point you to the same questions I asked farside. Besides her being sorry what makes her a good candidate for R. Considering all that has gone down, what a Sh*t deal it is for the BS and the fact that Hantei is moving on why is this a better choice then starting fresh with someone new?


The first reason is their history together and the second is they have a child together. I said this is a good candidate for R because she is remorseful and appears to be putting an effort into fixing her issues. She appears to be showing true remorse for how she treated Hantei and not just over being caught. 

Hantei may be happier without her. Heck, he may even get remarried one day. And, yes, his child will certainly live through a divorce and grow up to be a great man. 

I'm not arguing that he should R. I'm only saying that if he decides to do so, I seriously doubt she would cheat again. Up until the betrayal, she appears to have been a good wife and they shared many good memories.


----------



## Marc878

TX-SC said:


> The first reason is their history together and the second is they have a child together. I said this is a good candidate for R because she is remorseful and appears to be putting an effort into fixing her issues. She appears to be showing true remorse for how she treated Hantei and not just over being caught.
> 
> Hantei may be happier without her. Heck, he may even get remarried one day. And, yes, his child will certainly live through a divorce and grow up to be a great man.
> 
> I'm not arguing that he should R. I'm only saying that if he decides to do so, I seriously doubt she would cheat again. Up until the betrayal, she appears to have been a good wife and they shared many good memories.


The trouble is for a lot an affair/betrayal overshadows all the good times. The past doesn't matter much in the painfull present.


----------



## TX-SC

Marc878 said:


> The trouble is for a lot an affair/betrayal overshadows all the good times. The past doesn't matter much in the painfull present.


It can, and it may be more than he wants to deal with.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

R could be possible in this situation, but not likely. My issue if I were Hantei is the in laws. This to me in addition to being told OM was enlightening make extremely high hurdles to jump. How in the world could a mother and grandmother encourage her daughter to have an affair? Encourage your daughter to destroy a family?

I was fortunate to have the support of my in laws who pretty much let my FWW have it with both barrels. That in addition to me making myself scarce for six weeks brought her back to earth. My mother in law at 90 years old gave my wife hell.

How can a guy R with in laws such as what he has? Had my MIL treated me as Hantei's I highly doubt R would have been possible.


----------



## syhoybenden

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> How in the world could a mother and grandmother encourage her daughter to have an affair? Encourage your daughter to destroy a family?



Because she has defective wiring in her head.

In her head she is the only real person. All others exist only insofar as they can service her. Beyond that they cease to exist for her.

I would refer you to the work of Dr. Robert D. Hare. I found his book: Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us, to be engaging.


----------



## TX-SC

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> R could be possible in this situation, but not likely. My issue if I were Hantei is the in laws. This to me in addition to being told OM was enlightening make extremely high hurdles to jump. How in the world could a mother and grandmother encourage her daughter to have an affair? Encourage your daughter to destroy a family?
> 
> I was fortunate to have the support of my in laws who pretty much let my FWW have it with both barrels. That in addition to me making myself scarce for six weeks brought her back to earth. My mother in law at 90 years old gave my wife hell.
> 
> How can a guy R with in laws such as what he has? Had my MIL treated me as Hantei's I highly doubt R would have been possible.


The MIL and probably the FIL too would have to be cut from their lives completely.


----------



## Marc878

TX-SC said:


> The MIL and probably the FIL too would have to be cut from their lives completely.


Never happen. The family will always be in the mix.


----------



## syhoybenden

Marc878 said:


> Never happen. The family will always be in the mix.


Not true. It is do-able ..... when you have to.

This case IS a have to.


----------



## Marc878

syhoybenden said:


> Not true. It is do-able ..... when you have to.
> 
> This case IS a have to.


Only in fairy tales. This is real life. Wanting to see a feel good ending doesn't make it so. I suspect that's why Hantei is where he's at.


----------



## TX-SC

Marc878 said:


> Never happen. The family will always be in the mix.


Nope, not true. My family lives 1,100 miles from me, and my wife's is over 2,000 miles away. Although we see each side once a year on average, we have lived and raised our kids with no significant interference from either side. It is quite possible to live your life with no major interaction with family members.


----------



## syhoybenden

Marc878 said:


> Only in fairy tales. This is real life. Wanting to see a feel good ending doesn't make it so. I suspect that's why Hantei is where he's at.



Wrong again.

It is very do-able. I did it.

My one sibling ...my older brother ... I had to cut him out of my life to protect my family, to keep him from doing to my children what he had done to me for so many years. I looked him in the eye and told him "It's been a slice." and closed the door in his face. Twenty five years ago. We never spoke again.


----------



## Marc878

I guess time will tell. Not everyone will eat a sh!t sandwich to "save a marriage no matter what the cost".


----------



## Tron

Marc878 said:


> R is great for the waywards but the BS forever has the affair shoved up their azz.


I disagree. Have you ever reconciled?

If you pay a little attention, it ain't always great for the Wayward either.

It works when both the WS and BS are working together. 

And guarantee you a remorseful wayward has no desire at all to shove the affair up their BS' azz. They do the best they can to help their S deal with triggers.

Look, I get it Marc, your bitter/angry and bottom line is you aren't a R kinda guy. It certainly isn't for everyone. But some folks actually do and, while never the same, they wind up with a marriage that is fulfilling, meaningful and better than what they had before.


----------



## Marc878

Tron said:


> I disagree. Have you ever reconciled?
> 
> If you pay a little attention, it ain't always great for the Wayward either.
> 
> It works when both the WS and BS are working together.
> 
> And guarantee you a remorseful wayward has no desire at all to shove the affair up their BS' azz. They do the best they can to help their S deal with triggers.
> 
> Look, I get it Marc, your bitter/angry and bottom line is you aren't a R kinda guy. It certainly isn't for everyone. But some folks actually do and, while never the same, they wind up with a marriage that is fulfilling, meaningful and better than what they had before.


Some do but a lot end up with buyers remourse. Most R without thinking it through long term. It depends on your capability to handle it.

My opinions/observations come from years of dealing with many personnel issues not just my own. Has nothing to do with being bitter/angry. Most can't or don't comprehend the other side of the equation.


----------



## TX-SC

Every case is different. Hantei will simply have to decide what is best for him (and his son). R is difficult. D is difficult. Being cheated on is a horrible experience. All I said is that if he decides to go that route, I think he might be successful at R. But, as I understand it, as of right now his choice is D. More power to him on that choice and I hope he catches lots of fish!


----------



## GusPolinski

This is amusing. Hantei's WW shows up on SI w/ her woe-is-me-boo-hoo bit, and all the white knights draw their swords, ready to fall upon them.

Hopefully Hantei isn't so easily duped.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sokillme

Tron said:


> Look, I get it Marc, your bitter/angry and bottom line is you aren't a R kinda guy. It certainly isn't for everyone. But some folks actually do and, while never the same, they wind up with a marriage that is fulfilling, meaningful and better than what they had before.


Some people actually do win on the slots too! :smthumbup: All one has to do is reads some boards about reconciling to see that most are certainly not having better then they had before. 

And before you call me bitter/angry I have never been divorced and have no dog in the fight, but I can read.


----------



## sokillme

GusPolinski said:


> This is amusing. Hantei's WW shows up on SI w/ her woe-is-me-boo-hoo bit, and all the white knights draw their swords, ready to fall upon them.
> 
> Hopefully Hantei isn't so easily duped.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



As usual. H*ll yesterday there was someone on here was advising how the wife could reconcile with a husband who raped her, after he got help of course. Talk about a sh*t sandwich. 

No matter what reconcile will always be advocated 3 to 1 on these sites, mostly because the kind of people who give advice on boards are the kind that R. Most just move on. 

No matter what R is a suckers bet. It's also settling with a lemon of a marriage. Maybe it drives again but it will always be a lemon. Moving on should always be advised more because it is almost always the better choice. 

In rare circumstances maybe, but they are rare. 

The bottom line maybe Hantei just feels like he deserves to be with someone who will treat him better then his WS did. Maybe he just respects himself like that. That would be how I feel. You cheat on me you lose the privilege of having my love and time.


----------



## Cowboy2

sokillme said:


> No matter what R is a suckers bet. It's also settling with a lemon of a marriage. Maybe it drives again but it will always be a lemon. Moving on should always be advised more because it is almost always the better choice..


Man this is brutal and really struck a chord with me.

Just like that shattered mirror of trust that can never be fully repaired.


----------



## stillthinking

She is on SI? Wow that has got to be interesting. Whats the title of her thread?


----------



## sokillme

Cowboy2 said:


> Man this is brutal and really struck a chord with me.
> 
> Just like that shattered mirror of trust that can never be fully repaired.


Sorry man but got to call them like I see em.


----------



## AkaHantei

syhoybenden said:


> That being said, I don't think he would be averse to having all possible information at his disposal nor to being suggested ways of looking at things that may not have occurred to him yet.


That is absolutely correct.



TX-SC said:


> until the betrayal, she appears to have been a good wife and they shared many good memories.


This is correct as well.



Tron said:


> some folks actually do and, while never the same, they wind up with a marriage that is fulfilling, meaningful and better than what they had before.


Now this is a million dollar question. I can't see the marriage - if we hypothetically R - being even remotely close to what we had. Show me how it could be better and things can change here.


----------



## Marc878

AkaHantei said:


> Now this is a million dollar question. I can't see the marriage - if we hypothetically R - being even remotely close to what we had. Show me how it could be better and things can change here.


You're dealing with the rest of your life. How would you know unless you test the waters?

IMO I would not enter into an R until after I dated around. You may find that what you had is not comparable to what you could have.

Good luck to you no matter which path you choose.


----------



## Marc878

Not everyone can be a cuckolded plan B doormat.


----------



## NotEasy

AkaHantei said:


> Now this is a million dollar question. I can't see the marriage - if we hypothetically R - being even remotely close to what we had. Show me how it could be better and things can change here.


After R will never be the same as before. The only ones suggesting that just want to rugsweep and dream of unicorns.

And my problem with suggesting R is I cannot see how things will play out. Will the future be better than the past or worse? Will the past repeat? I don't know. 

All I can suggest is maybe it might be good. The main possible positive factor is that I think she is looking at and thinking about what she did. Maybe that will cause her to develop back-bone and fight for the marriage instead of drifting and following MIL.Or maybe I am imagining, you are closer.


----------



## Tron

That's a bit harsh Marc. But we already know where you stand.

How can it be better than before? Well, let me tell you. My W and I were both pretty miserable prior to our dday. Besides the two kids there simply wasn't much positive going on. Intimacy was non-existent, lot of contempt, lot of anger. We didn't talk, did not communicate, did not deal with our issues, passive aggressive BS and let things build up. 

There was a ton of bad $hit going on. We were well on our way to a D. 

It forced us to begin to deal with our issues. And we both had a lot to work on.

I guess coming from that place, we had nowhere to go but up. Now we communicate, we work on things and are really able to show each other how much we love each other. Things are good. We are good partners for each other and it's working.


----------



## MattMatt

sokillme said:


> As usual. H*ll yesterday there was someone on here was advising how the wife could reconcile with a husband who raped her, after he got help of course. Talk about a sh*t sandwich.
> 
> No matter what reconcile will always be advocated 3 to 1 on these sites, mostly because the kind of people who give advice on boards are the kind that R. Most just move on.
> 
> No matter what R is a suckers bet. It's also settling with a lemon of a marriage. Maybe it drives again but it will always be a lemon. Moving on should always be advised more because it is almost always the better choice.
> 
> In rare circumstances maybe, but they are rare.
> 
> The bottom line maybe Hantei just feels like he deserves to be with someone who will treat him better then his WS did.  Maybe he just respects himself like that. That would be how I feel. You cheat on me you lose the privilege of having my love and time.


There was actually *nobody* advising how a rape victim could reconcile with her rapist husband. That was your pretzel bending interpretation of *one* post that was made in that thread.


----------



## AkaHantei

I hear you. But in my case we didn't not have any of these issues. Good marriage by common standards. So where to improve from where we are? If I lose on my dignity and pride, what do I win? I'm not writing this do defend my stance, frankly I need no validation of my way forward. Genuinely interested if I'm missing something.





Tron said:


> That's a bit harsh Marc. But we already know where you stand.
> 
> How can it be better than before? Well, let me tell you. My W and I were both pretty miserable prior to our dday. Besides the two kids there simply wasn't much positive going on. Intimacy was non-existent, lot of contempt, lot of anger. We didn't talk, did not communicate, did not deal with our issues, passive aggressive BS and let things build up.
> 
> There was a ton of bad $hit going on. We were well on our way to a D.
> 
> It forced us to begin to deal with our issues. And we both had a lot to work on.
> 
> I guess coming from that place, we had nowhere to go but up. Now we communicate, we work on things and are really able to show each other how much we love each other. Things are good. We are good partners for each other and it's working.


----------



## sokillme

MattMatt said:


> There was actually *nobody* advising how a rape victim could reconcile with her rapist husband. That was your pretzel bending interpretation of *one* post that was made in that thread.


Half of the post was about after he fixes how they can get back together. Get back together with a rapist. Anyone is free to read it and decide on there own. A lot of people liked my post so I guess I wasn't the only one who thought that (you even liked my first one). There is another one on there today, which I will be calling out shortly. Terrible advice should be called out. You obviously thing mine is and you call me out all the time. So be it.


----------



## sokillme

AkaHantei said:


> I hear you. But in my case we didn't not have any of these issues. Good marriage by common standards. So where to improve from where we are? If I lose on my dignity and pride, what do I win? I'm not writing this do defend my stance, frankly I need no validation of my way forward. Genuinely interested if I'm missing something.


Some people just don't care about there dignity and pride as much. That's all. You aren't missing anything.


----------



## Tron

AkaHantei said:


> I hear you. But in my case we didn't not have any of these issues. Good marriage by common standards. So where to improve from where we are? If I lose on my dignity and pride, what do I win? I'm not writing this do defend my stance, frankly I need no validation of my way forward. Genuinely interested if I'm missing something.


The marriage wasn't perfect Hantei. There were cracks in it. There were cracks in her, else this would not have happened.

You don't need to defend your stance with me or anyone else Hantei. You ultimately should do what is best for you.

But leave the pride at the door. It is a sin for a reason. 

As for dignity, I don't think that you should trade your dignity for a chance to reconcile. But let me ask you, insofar as you seem to be a man worthy of honor and respect, who would dishonor or disrespect you if you gave your STBX an opportunity to R? 

And rest assured that I agree that your STBX dishonored you and disrespected you in the worst way possible. However, if this were to never happen again and she were to be a near perfect loving W or girlfriend to you going forward what would that mean to you?

Is there any way for her to redeem herself in your eyes?


----------



## AkaHantei

> The marriage wasn't perfect Hantei. There were cracks in it. There were cracks in her, else this would not have happened.


While I find this discussion very useful - in a way of being able to put a structure to my somehow scattered thoughts (see below) I respectfully disagree with the inverse logic. The marriage was really good, I never wished for anything more for 20 years -so did she. 
Can't invalidate all these good years just in retrospect - just to justify R.
So the "new" marriage is not going to be better by any stretch of imagination just because the alleged crack is I the open. Never l liked the "this usef car is exactly like the new car. No difference. Except it is used" logic. 



> But leave the pride at the door. It is a sin for a reason.


Not religious so can't do that. Not a sin in my eyes so I'm going to keep it.



> who would dishonor or disrespect you if you gave your STBX an opportunity to R?


Probably no one except myself. Not because of the opportunity to R per se, but because I'll be the guy looking at himself in the mirror and thinking "well, my women who was one and only for me for 20+ years f#!!#ed another dude... and here I am like nothing happened". Yeah I get it - she'll never cheat again - so one time shouldn't count? I can try to find all sorts of spiritual meaning to R but ultimately this will be the end to all means, won't it? 



> However, if this were to never happen again and she were to be a near perfect loving W or girlfriend to you going forward what would that mean to you?



As above. Under the same circumstances if I was, say, an alcoholic and she was dismissive and not affectionate, then after an affair this all blows apart and lands together where I get sober and she is a "perfect loving W or girlfriend" - by all means, I will be in R instantly. 



> Is there any way for her to redeem herself in your eyes?


If there is - please let me know. I just don't see it.


----------



## blahfridge

Hantei, your last line is as definitive as it gets and almost brutal. Keep your distance from your wife until this is all over. Continued kindness, but keep it short and to the point. Anything else is going to give her false hope.

She made a terrible error in judgement and will live to regret it for the rest of her life. I suspect you will get past this long before she does. Even if she finds someone else, she will forever feel tainted. You will be able to move on conscience free.


----------



## AkaHantei

blahfridge said:


> Hantei, your last line is as definitive as it gets and almost brutal. Keep your distance from your wife until this is all over. Continued kindness, but keep it short and to the point. Anything else is going to give her false hope.
> 
> She made a terrible error in judgement and will live to regret it for the rest of her life. I suspect you will get past this long before she does. Even if she finds someone else, she will forever feel tainted. You will be able to move on conscience free.


Thanks for that. Yes conscience free is the key here, last line of defense so to speak.

I didn't mean that last line to be brutal, it is literally what it is: not being able to imagine a happy ever after and aknowledging that.


----------



## Tron

Thank you Hantei. 



AkaHantei said:


> While I find this discussion very useful - in a way of being able to put a structure to my somehow scattered thoughts (see below) I respectfully disagree with the inverse logic. The marriage was really good, I never wished for anything more for 20 years -so did she.


If that is true, then why did this happen? What is her explanation?



AkaHantei said:


> Can't invalidate all these good years just in retrospect - just to justify R.
> So the "new" marriage is not going to be better by any stretch of imagination just because the alleged crack is I the open.


How do you know?



AkaHantei said:


> Never l liked the "this usef car is exactly like the new car. No difference. Except it is used" logic.
> 
> Not religious so can't do that. Not a sin in my eyes so I'm going to keep it.


Taking the religious aspect out of the equation, the reason I pointed it out, was that being overly prideful is not a good thing.

Why? Because it can lead to feelings of self-importance, of superiority, of arrogance.

Contrast that with the feelings you have when you have accomplished some long awaited goal, or accomplishing something together as a group or even maybe successfully rebuilding a relationship out of the ashes of an old one. 



AkaHantei said:


> Probably no one except myself. Not because of the opportunity to R per se, but because I'll be the guy looking at himself in the mirror and thinking "well, my women who was one and only for me for 20+ years f#!!#ed another dude... and here I am like nothing happened". Yeah I get it - she'll never cheat again - so one time shouldn't count? I can try to find all sorts of spiritual meaning to R but ultimately this will be the end to all means, won't it?


Why, in your mind, does a reconciliation necessarily involve treating the A as if "nothing happened"? In my experience, that is not the case. It happened. It absolutely counts. It isn't necessarily the "be all end all" however. 




AkaHantei said:


> As above. Under the same circumstances if I was, say, an alcoholic and she was dismissive and not affectionate, then after an affair this all blows apart and lands together where I get sober and she is a "perfect loving W or girlfriend" - by all means, I will be in R instantly.
> 
> If there is - please let me know. I just don't see it.


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think you are saying is in your mind, there must be some extenuating circumstances or underlying cause/effect that would justify reconciling.

Aren't love, compassion, understanding, care and forgiveness just as compelling?


----------



## sokillme

Tron said:


> Aren't love, compassion, understanding, care and forgiveness just as compelling?


He can have all those things and still not get back with her. Again maybe he just thinks his love is worth more then someone who would cheat on him. Maybe he respects himself too much. 

Tron Why are guys like you so willing to give it away, and give other peoples away?


----------



## TX-SC

It's good that you have made a decision and that you are secure and confident in it. In my earlier post, I said that if you decided to R, that your marriage would be a good candidate for it. But, many can't live with being with someone after this level of betrayal. I certainly understand that and it's exactly what I did with my fiancée. She cheated, I dumped her. End of story.


----------



## NotEasy

Tron said:


> ...
> Taking the religious aspect out of the equation, the reason I pointed it out, was that being overly prideful is not a good thing.
> 
> Why? Because it can lead to feelings of self-importance, of superiority, of arrogance.
> 
> Contrast that with the feelings you have when you have accomplished some long awaited goal, or accomplishing something together as a group or even maybe successfully rebuilding a relationship out of the ashes of an old one.


I agree that pride works against R, but see it differently. Many (I make no comment here about Hantei) see the balance sheet as unbalanced by the affair. The WS got to have fun, while they only get pain and embarrassment. This hurts their pride. This is a reasonable view for them to take, and if they do then successful R seems impossible.
The other view is that there is no fair and even balance sheet, everyone suffers because of the affair. WS had fun, but now has pain and embarrassment (and if they aren't embarrassed don't R). The betrayed has pain too. I don't know who has more pain, but it isn't fair. From this point of pain it is a matter of which path forward looks best, what the future might hold, whether the WS can rebuild trust. I think this view can only be taken by someone who can overcome their pride, or can take more pride in what they might rebuild.



Tron said:


> Why, in your mind, does a reconciliation necessarily involve treating the A as if "nothing happened"? In my experience, that is not the case. It happened. It absolutely counts. It isn't necessarily the "be all end all" however.


Agreed. If you or the WS wants to move forward as if "nothing happened", then that is called rug sweeping and will be more pain and disaster. 
Successful R must be rebuilding, the WS especially. 
In this case I think early on she wanted to ignore the affair. I suspect nowshe is starting to try and rebuild and could be led to move faster. But maybe this is my wishful thinking.



Tron said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think you are saying is in your mind, there must be some extenuating circumstances or underlying cause/effect that would justify reconciling.


I thought Hantei's first decision was divorce unless something magical happens. Nothing wrong with that decision.
The recent twist is her posting on SI suggests maybe she is finally getting it. To me that might be the beginning of extenuating circumstances. 
I don't suggest any circumstance that forgives the affair. I haven't read SI. I think I read someone say she is not suggesting any extenuating circumstance forgives the affair. 
Instead the extenuating circumstance is that she might now have realised the magnitude of what she did, be truly sorry, be able to rebuild herself and move forward better. Perhaps this means R is possible. Maybe it just means she can move forward as a better person, but she will be single.


Tron said:


> Aren't love, compassion, understanding, care and forgiveness just as compelling?


While I agree these are all essential ingredients of success, they can't be one-sided. Hantei can't do it all by himself. He needs to judge whether she will also contribute.
Also, successful R needs trust. She broke that, she must work to rebuild that.

Hantei should forgive, or the bitterness will eat him up. But he can forgive and divorce.


----------



## turnera

sokillme said:


> Half of the post was about after he fixes how they can get back together. Get back together with a rapist. Anyone is free to read it and decide on there own. A lot of people liked my post so I guess I wasn't the only one who thought that (you even liked my first one). There is another one on there today, which I will be calling out shortly. Terrible advice should be called out. You obviously thing mine is and you call me out all the time. So be it.


You're talking about me, so I'll respond. As I clarified, she seemed SO caught up in whether to protect him or give him up, that I gave her a way to keep him at bay while still protecting herself. A million things can happen between now and a year from now, who are we to tell her what she has to do? 

What I suggested would allow her to distance herself from him without him turning into a crazy obsessive jerk (because she shuts him off 100%) who ruins her life. BTDT, and had the crazy ex following me around for MONTHS because I shut him down in one fell swoop. IMO, if she needed to, she could assuage her female guilt by saying she'll 'think about it' until she felt strong enough to pull the plug. But she's obviously stronger than I gave her credit for, and she doesn't need that stopgap measure.


----------



## sokillme

NotEasy said:


> I agree that pride works against R, but see it differently. Many (I make no comment here about Hantei) see the balance sheet as unbalanced by the affair. The WS got to have fun, while they only get pain and embarrassment. This hurts their pride. This is a reasonable view for them to take, and if they do then successful R seems impossible.
> The other view is that there is no fair and even balance sheet, everyone suffers because of the affair. WS had fun, but now has pain and embarrassment (and if they aren't embarrassed don't R). The betrayed has pain too. I don't know who has more pain, but it isn't fair. From this point of pain it is a matter of which path forward looks best, what the future might hold, whether the WS can rebuild trust. I think this view can only be taken by someone who can overcome their pride, or can take more pride in what they might rebuild.


I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp. If someone punches me in the face I don't want to be friends with them anymore. Likewise if someone cheats on me I don't want to be in a relationship anymore. It doesn't have to do with pride or payback it is just the feeling that this is not worth the effort, life is too short, time to move on. To me this is where Hantei is at.

There are lots of people in this world who are confident enough to believe they can move on an meet someone else and be happy. Or better yet be happy alone. 

I don't know why this is such a foreign concept around here.


----------



## sokillme

turnera said:


> who are we to tell her what she has to do?


I have no problem telling her to never ever go back to a guy who rapes her.

Let's drop it. I am not going to agree with you and you obviously see it a different way. I get now you were trying to be helpful, but you whiffed on this one.


----------



## bigfoot

I think that AKA is absolutely correct. He seems to have distilled this particular problem down to what is, for him and many, the truth of the matter. It was a deal breaker for him.

R works for some, beautifully. For others, it is more of a "grin and bear it deal. For others, it is a tortured existence that they suffer through miserably. There are some who realizie that it was not worth it and they just give up. Finally, there are those who know themselves so well that they don't even waste their time, because for them it would be a waste of time. The latter is our guy.

I know so many people affected by infidelity and EVERY SINGLE ONE that I know who ended the marriage is HAPPIER. Folks who were in "so called" great marriages who were blindsided and had no idea that infidelity was even a serious risk in their relationship still tell me that they are happier. Was their marriage great, sure. But after infidelity, there was nothing but darkness. Divorcing was a life saver and a soul saver.

I applaud AKA Hantei for knowing himself. If he changes his mind later or sooner, it is not an indictment of his choice now. I doubt he will change. I get it. Deal breakers are best accepted rather than resisted.


----------



## NotEasy

sokillme said:


> I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp. If someone punches me in the face I don't want to be friends with them anymore. Likewise if someone cheats on me I don't want to be in a relationship anymore. It doesn't have to do with pride or payback it is just the feeling that this is not worth the effort, life is too short, time to move on. To me this is where Hantei is at.
> 
> There are lots of people in this world who are confident enough to believe they can move on an meet someone else and be happy. Or better yet be happy alone.
> 
> I don't know why this is such a foreign concept around here.


I can grasp and accept divorce as the response to an affair. Often divorce is the best response for a betrayed spouse. I am not saying divorces is wrong in this case.

In some cases reconciliation is possible. This might perhaps be such a case. I merely want Hantei to consider the possibility. 

But I think reconciliation is alway hard, often inappropriate, never guaranteed to succeed and never fair. 

Hantei knows his wife and her make-up far more than these posts have shown us. He can judge better than us. He can ask her any question he wants. We are only guessing. So I don't want to push any path as the best. 

Equally I don't want to push the same one particular response to every affair.


----------



## SunCMars

farsidejunky said:


> You know I am not a huge proponent of R after a PA.
> 
> I see this one differently.


I felt that way with @weltschmerz, his wife stopped short of PIV. She never openly belittled her husband. She was, from the beginning, broken by her EXF. She needed closure.. or something. She was remorseful.

Hantai's wife was in deep harbor fog, loved it. She was in love with the guy. While in the fog she openly and cruely threw Hantei to the Tasmanian Devil out back.

She is immature personality wise, over ripe for infidelity.

Nope, dump her.


----------



## SunCMars

farsidejunky said:


> What county, Palodyne? I lived in Charleston and Pineville combined for over 5 years. The wife is a WV girl.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I retired from the West Virginia Army National Guard. Love the good ole boy's down there.


----------



## SunCMars

LosingHim said:


> All this exciting fishing talk on this thread and here all I do is fish for perch and walleye with my dad on Lake Erie. We occasionally catch a big catfish, but we tend to fish pretty deep and it’s rare to catch them as deep as we fish. The biggest fighters we catch are Sheephead 25-30 inches, sometimes bigger and put up a hell of a fight.


Walleye are hitting in the eastern basin in 40 ft of water.

Troll at .5 to 1.5 mph using a 2 oz. steel lure to pull your following worm harness. The steel lure sinks the worm harness down to 40ft. 

Let out 150ft of line while trolling.


Planer boards work also. I have not had as much luck with them.

I too am a perch fisherman....nah....I am happy catching anything except gobies.

We are doing another fly-in in upper Canada. Lots of pike, and bass. have caught muskies....not too often.


----------



## LosingHim

SunCMars said:


> Walleye are hitting in the eastern basin in 40 ft of water.
> 
> Troll at .5 to 1.5 mph using a 2 oz. steel lure to pull your following worm harness. The steel lure sinks the worm harness down to 40ft.
> 
> Let out 150ft of line while trolling.
> 
> 
> Planer boards work also. I have not had as much luck with them.
> 
> I too am a perch fisherman....nah....I am happy catching anything except gobies.
> 
> We are doing another fly-in in upper Canada. Lots of pike, and bass. have caught muskies....not too often.


Gobies are the worst. I do admit they are cute when they’re young though, with those big bug eyes. I caught one one time that was about the size of a big minnow. Not even sure how I got it, when I pulled it up I thought it was my bait LOL. I think we were Walleye fishing with worms when I caught it and I’ll be damned that thing got my worm! 

I haven’t been to the lake with dad yet this summer. He got a new boat last summer and he’s had nothing but problems with it. He just got it back from being fixed last week. He went up yesterday but didn’t have luck catching anything. I’ve heard the mayflies are pretty bad on the lake right now. I cannot stand to be on that lake with the mayflies. I’m not sure if them or the midges are worse. And once those mayflies hatch, the perch will quit biting til early fall. We always seem to have the best luck with perch in early fall and the best luck with walleye in early spring. Dead of summer it seems all I really catch is a great tan.


----------



## SunCMars

LosingHim said:


> Gobies are the worst. I do admit they are cute when they’re young though, with those big bug eyes. I caught one one time that was about the size of a big minnow. Not even sure how I got it, when I pulled it up I thought it was my bait LOL. I think we were Walleye fishing with worms when I caught it and I’ll be damned that thing got my worm!
> 
> I haven’t been to the lake with dad yet this summer. He got a new boat last summer and he’s had nothing but problems with it. He just got it back from being fixed last week. He went up yesterday but didn’t have luck catching anything. I’ve heard the mayflies are pretty bad on the lake right now. I cannot stand to be on that lake with the mayflies. I’m not sure if them or the midges are worse. And once those mayflies hatch, the perch will quit biting til early fall. We always seem to have the best luck with perch in early fall and the best luck with walleye in early spring. Dead of summer it seems all I really catch is a great tan.



Catch a Tanfish, yes!

I am ready to drag a net behind my boat, during these Dog-Days of Summer.


----------



## azteca1986

sokillme said:


> I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp. If someone punches me in the face I don't want to be friends with them anymore. Likewise if someone cheats on me I don't want to be in a relationship anymore. It doesn't have to do with pride or payback it is just the feeling that this is not worth the effort, life is too short, time to move on. To me this is where Hantei is at.
> 
> There are lots of people in this world who are confident enough to believe they can move on an meet someone else and be happy. Or better yet be happy alone.
> 
> I don't know why this is such a foreign concept around here.


Let me enlighten you.

TAM used to be a place where we would try to equip the people that came here with the tools, experience and advice so that they could make decisions about their own lives. 

This requires empathy. And tailoring your advice for each situation.

We've lost a lot of good posters over the years and they've been replaced, in the last year or so, with posters who only have one tune and re-play incessantly in every thread. TAM has become a place to push agendas:


> Likewise if someone cheats on me I don't want to be in a relationship anymore.


Thread's not about you, is it? That's the thing you find hard to grasp.


----------



## sokillme

azteca1986 said:


> Let me enlighten you.
> 
> TAM used to be a place where we would try to equip the people that came here with the tools, experience and advice so that they could make decisions about their own lives.
> 
> This requires empathy. And tailoring your advice for each situation.
> 
> We've lost a lot of good posters over the years and they've been replaced, in the last year or so, with posters who only have one tune and re-play incessantly in every thread. TAM has become a place to push agendas:
> Thread's not about you, is it? That's the thing you find hard to grasp.


Let me enlighten you. It's called giving my perspective. This is how people communicate.


----------



## AkaHantei

LosingHim said:


> . He got a new boat last summer and he’s had nothing but problems with it. He just got it back from being fixed last week.


Boat - Bring On Another Thousand


----------



## LosingHim

AkaHantei said:


> Boat - Bring On Another Thousand


Lol that's exactly what he says!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AkaHantei

LosingHim said:


> Lol that's exactly what he says!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wisdom of generation. Hope he doesn't have to drive half of a day to and from the mechanic.


----------



## MattMatt

sokillme said:


> Let me enlighten you. It's called giving my perspective. This is how people communicate.


There is a contestant on a popular UK quiz show. 

There are three possible answers.

If she doesn't know the answer she always goes for the middle answer.

But with you It's like someone who when asked a question always answers "cheese!" no matter what the question was.

Of course eventually the answer to the question is cheese and he gets it right!

But your answer is always "Divorce the cheater!"

Sometimes that is the right answer. But not always.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sokillme

MattMatt said:


> There is a contestant on a popular UK quiz show.
> 
> There are three possible answers.
> 
> If she doesn't know the answer she always goes for the middle answer.
> 
> But with you It's like someone who when asked a question always answers "cheese!" no matter what the question was.
> 
> Of course eventually the answer to the question is cheese and he gets it right!
> 
> But your answer is always "Divorce the cheater!"
> 
> Sometimes that is the right answer. But not always.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most of the time it's right. :smile2:

And actually this was Hantel's answer except some in R can't seem to handle it when someone doesn't want to stay with a cheater.


----------



## AkaHantei

sokillme said:


> Most of the time it's right. :smile2:
> 
> And actually this was Hantel's answer except some in R can't seem to handle it when someone doesn't want to stay with a cheater.


I do what I need to do and what I feel is the right way forward however I need to be sure I've considered all angles and view points. Ability to move on with clear conscience as @blahfridge rightfully put it is a key aspect for me. So I appreciate all posts and any input.

It's more complex than "dump a cheater" even if it is the net outcome.


----------



## GusPolinski

AkaHantei said:


> I do what I need to do and what I feel is the right way forward however I need to be sure I've considered all angles and view points. Ability to move on with clear conscience as @blahfridge rightfully put it is a key aspect for me. So I appreciate all posts and any input.
> 
> *It's more complex than "dump a cheater" even if it is the net outcome.*


It is and it isn't. Still, well said.


----------



## MattMatt

The problem is when people say "only my answer is the right one in all cases."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## blahfridge

​


AkaHantei said:


> I do what I need to do and what I feel is the right way forward however I need to be sure I've considered all angles and view points. Ability to move on with clear conscience as @blahfridge rightfully put it is a key aspect for me. So I appreciate all posts and any input.
> 
> It's more complex than "dump a cheater" even if it is the net outcome.


Hantei, to be clear, what I was speaking to is your ability to be conscience free about your fidelity in the marriage, something she will never have. 

I think what you are searching for is to leave the marriage with no regret. Personally, I think that you SHOULD consider R with your wife, because otherwise I think you may always have a nagging "what if" feeling that maybe it would have worked have you given her a second chance. 

Just my two cents...


----------



## syhoybenden

Probation? With irreversible consequences for failure?

What have you got to lose? You're in the driver's seat now. No illusions. No delusions. Be the man you know you are.

Just a thought.


----------



## AkaHantei

MattMatt said:


> The problem is when people say "only my answer is the right one in all cases."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People like that are commonly called "boss" .l  

Glad I'm self emplayed... both then this is my MIL. Or I'd say "was".


----------



## farsidejunky

AkaHantei said:


> People like that are commonly called "boss" .l
> 
> Glad I'm self emplayed... both then this is my MIL. Or I'd say "was".


Try treating your customers or clients this way, and see how much longer you are "boss"...


----------



## AkaHantei

blahfridge said:


> ​
> Hantei, to be clear, what I was speaking to is your ability to be conscience free about your fidelity in the marriage, something she will never have.
> 
> I think what you are searching for is to leave the marriage with no regret. Personally, I think that you SHOULD consider R with your wife, because otherwise I think you may always have a nagging "what if" feeling that maybe it would have worked have you given her a second chance.
> 
> Just my two cents...


Understood and thanks for clarifying. However I have interpreted that part of yours exactly as per the 1st sentence of your second paragraph above, so no, I did not thank you for nothing 

As for the R part... There is truth in what are you saying. The problem is that I just can not. As simple as that. 100% not until I'm divorced. Not sure if it makes any sense.


----------



## Palodyne

Hantei is on the course he feels is best for him. The marriage he had is dead, let the man divorce and bury the old marriage for good. Then after he's free he can date a few women, see what else is out there. Then if he decides that he wants to try again with his XW, they can date for a while and see where it goes.

This will give his WW time to work on herself and try to make herself a safer partner for someone. And Hantei won't have to eat a sh!t sandwich, because he won't be taking back a cheating wife, he will be dating a woman with the possibility of a new relationship.


----------



## AkaHantei

syhoybenden said:


> Probation? With irreversible consequences for failure?
> 
> What have you got to lose? You're in the driver's seat now. No illusions. No delusions. Be the man you know you are.
> 
> Just a thought.


Pardon?


----------



## AkaHantei

farsidejunky said:


> Try treating your customers or clients this way, and see how much longer you are "boss"...


Have been in business for 12 years, still growing and can retire in 6 month if I decide to. 

Obviously that post was sarcastic, I'm kind of not fond of always right people.


----------



## farsidejunky

AkaHantei said:


> Have been in business for 12 years, still growing and can retire in 6 month if I decide to.
> 
> Obviously that post was sarcastic, I'm kind of not fond of always right people.


I misread it. I apologize.


----------



## jld

AkaHantei said:


> As for the R part... There is truth in what are you saying. The problem is that I just can not. As simple as that. 100% not until I'm divorced. Not sure if it makes any sense.


As in, after you two are divorced, you have a clean slate? No obligation, no commitment? Everything going forward on a free will basis?

Some advocate for automatic divorce after infidelity. Definite advantages to that.

But there are costs, too. They should be considered.


----------



## syhoybenden

AkaHantei said:


> Pardon?


Oh, just some idle thoughts on how, should you proceed with the divorce, you might offer an olive branch to your ex-w.

Also applies should you decide to put the divorce on hiatus.


----------



## syhoybenden

Compassion comes from strength, not weakness.

Vindictiveness comes from weakness.


----------



## syhoybenden

What I guess I mean to say is …. I'm usually a pretty hard-line "burn it down, scorch the earth and strew the ground with salt" kind of guy, usually. But, the truth is that, in reality, there is no genuine "one size fits all' solution to anything.

Beyond any shadow of a doubt your wife is not without blame here. You know it. She knows it.

She wanted to taste the forbidden fruit. She was tempted. She was curious.
BUT it is my profound gut feel distilled down from everything you and she have recounted in your particular threads that she would not have gone beyond the tipping point on her own. She, when vulnerable, was pushed sharply from behind by her farked-up family of origin dynamics orchestrated by Mommy Dearest.

Her mother should be cut out of both of your lives, forever. That is the only defence from psychopathic behaviour.

In her own sad sad way your stbxw is as much a victim of this as you are.


----------



## AkaHantei

farsidejunky said:


> I misread it. I apologize.


No problem at all.




syhoybenden said:


> Oh, just some idle thoughts on how, should you proceed with the divorce, you might offer an olive branch to your ex-w.
> 
> Also applies should you decide to put the divorce on hiatus.


I see, thanks.




syhoybenden said:


> Compassion comes from strength, not weakness.
> 
> Vindictiveness comes from weakness.


Yeah, I get this a lot these days. 'You don't have to divorce 
to prove you are tough, you'll show your strength by not divorcing and working to save the family'"

I'm ok to be seen as not so strong ATM.


----------



## AkaHantei

jld said:


> As in, after you two are divorced, you have a clean slate? No obligation, no commitment? Everything going forward on a free will basis?
> 
> Some advocate for automatic divorce after infidelity. Definite advantages to that.
> 
> But there are costs, too. They should be considered.


Not sure I understood you, sorry.


----------



## Truthseeker1

AkaHantei said:


> *
> Yeah, I get this a lot these days. 'You don't have to divorce
> to prove you are tough, you'll show your strength by not divorcing and working to save the family'"*


That is just bullsh!t to get you to do what they want you to do - strength comes from deciding what is right and seeing it through no mattter what the obstacles are IMO


----------



## Chaparral

sokillme said:


> Some people just don't care about there dignity and pride as much. That's all. You aren't missing anything.


I think dignity and pride are things one earns by oneself. Hantei's wife didn't bestow him with these qualities nor anyone else. Neither can her actions degrade him in any way or take them away.

Actually,I think they should go to marriage counseling and both should be in I.C. Great marriages rarely succumb to this kind of disfunction.

I think Hantei is no doubt a great but strong personality. I doubt he is as easy to live with (live up to?) as he thinks. I think his wife was and always has been mentally abused by her mother leaving her unable to handle life with strength and fortitude.

I think she saw her Posom as an escape, a temporary respite from the pressures of life. She didn't figure on ever harming her family or leaving with the Posom. Her Story about how great he was was sadly pathetic and contrived. even foolishly naive.

None of us know what others are going through. 
More sadly, this is yet another infidelity fiasco with a trail leading back to her FOO.

Though everything seemed great on the outside, on the inside something was amiss. Hantai and his wife needs to find out whatit is before either can move forward together or not.


----------



## Chaparral

It was asked earlier how marriages could be great after an affair.

Over the years we have had a great many men here that have had very successful marriages. Oddly they get baited by other anti R members and routinely get banned. Others simply get tired of the abuse dished out here.


----------



## alte Dame

What your wife did cut to your core and you committed to divorce. All of this changes one's feelings substantially. And these changes can happen so quickly.

Now she seems remorseful, is completely 'defogged,' and would do anything to try to repair your relationship.

What I see and feel, though, is that the cataclysmic effect of infidelity can just shift your love on its axis so that it's no longer marital love. It might be the 'love but not in love' type of thing, or just affection, or even indifference. Whatever form the feelings take, they are often no longer what is truly needed in a marriage, which is love supported by respect, honor, and desire for the other person.

So, AKA-H, what do you feel today about your WW? Affection and pity? Heartbroken love? Emotional distance?


----------



## Palodyne

Once again, Hantei has made up his mind as to what he needs to move forward. He DOES NOT want to RECONCILE!!!! So stop with all the R talk!!! The man wants to divorce, see what else is out there, maybe there is a woman that is 100% better than his EX.

If not, he can seek to date his EX again, if she is free, and see where it goes from there. Starting a new relationship with her. But she or he may find someone better, in which case, good for them. That is not for any of us to decide.

My point is, stop trying to push this man to what he doesn't want!! Support him in what he does want.


----------



## becareful2

AkaHantei said:


> I'm ok to be seen as not so strong ATM.


Actually, you're very strong, Hantei. Maybe too strong. There's a saying here in the U.S.: "Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't."


----------



## Tron

Palodyne said:


> Once again, Hantei has made up his mind as to what he needs to move forward. He DOES NOT want to RECONCILE!!!! So stop with all the R talk!!! The man wants to divorce, see what else is out there, maybe there is a woman that is 100% better than his EX.
> 
> If not, he can seek to date his EX again, if she is free, and see where it goes from there. Starting a new relationship with her. But she or he may find someone better, in which case, good for them. That is not for any of us to decide.
> 
> My point is, stop trying to push this man to what he doesn't want!! Support him in what he does want.












I think Hantei has indicated that he likes and appreciates the discourse and the variety of opinions.

He hasn't asked for a cheering section screaming d!tch the ***** either. 

He is committed to his current course of action but people's feelings change over time and who is to say that his won't either. He is still, what 4 months into this? Pretty early still.

Anywhoo. Carry on.


----------



## NotEasy

syhoybenden said:


> Compassion comes from strength, not weakness.
> 
> Vindictiveness comes from weakness.


I agree with both of them

HOWEVER

Compassion is not the same as reconcilliation. There is overlap, successful R needs compassion, but compassion alone doesn't guarantee success and you can have compassion while divorcing.
I think some push blind compassion and "you must reconcile" to the point of rugsweeping, for them compassion is blind forgiveness and forgetting, this is not good for the marriage. 
We should always have compassion, but when they say compassion they don't mean what I mean when I say compassion.

Vindictiveness is not the same as divorce. Again a divorce can be vindictive, but you can divorce without vindictiveness. And there can be vindictiveness in reconcilliation, if the betrayed keeps rubbing the waywards nose in the affair.

ALSO

there is another way, between blind compassion and vindictiveness. It is a hard path to spot, because you must avoid your own bad tendencies and you must realistically evaluate others and the likely future. I think this is what Hantei is carefully doing. It is not quick or easy.


----------



## AkaHantei

You hit the bulls eye here @alte Dame. I'm not sure I can or ready to discuss this on the public forum, but your post is chillingly relevant.



alte Dame said:


> What your wife did cut to your core and you committed to divorce. All of this changes one's feelings substantially. And these changes can happen so quickly.
> 
> Now she seems remorseful, is completely 'defogged,' and would do anything to try to repair your relationship.
> 
> What I see and feel, though, is that the cataclysmic effect of infidelity can just shift your love on its axis so that it's no longer marital love. It might be the 'love but not in love' type of thing, or just affection, or even indifference. Whatever form the feelings take, they are often no longer what is truly needed in a marriage, which is love supported by respect, honor, and desire for the other person.
> 
> So, AKA-H, what do you feel today about your WW? Affection and pity? Heartbroken love? Emotional distance?


----------



## AkaHantei

Duplicate


----------



## Palodyne

Tron said:


> I think Hantei has indicated that he likes and appreciates the discourse and the variety of opinions.
> 
> He hasn't asked for a cheering section screaming d!tch the ***** either.
> 
> He is committed to his current course of action but people's feelings change over time and who is to say that his won't either. He is still, what 4 months into this? Pretty early still.
> 
> Anywhoo. Carry on.


I am not a cheering section for ditch the b!tch. You people have become a cheering section for take her back. You have been asking Hantei, what can we do to help you eat this sh!t sandwich? What if she adds extra mayo, or mustard? We could offer extra cheese.

He has stated what he wants to do. Why do you find it so damned hard to support HIM? This is HIS thread not HERS! It is perfectly understandable that this was a deal breaker for him. Everyone here should be supporting this man in what he needs to heal. He wants to divorce and then proceed from there. That is perfectly understandable, and a solid course of action.

It feels like to many here have been reading Hantei's WW's thread on SI, and then coming here to do her bidding. The purpose of this thread is to support Hantei...REMEMBER?


----------



## MattMatt

Palodyne said:


> I am not a cheering section for ditch the b!tch. You people have become a cheering section for take her back. You have been asking Hantei, what can we do to help you eat this sh!t sandwich? What if she adds extra mayo, or mustard? We could offer extra cheese.
> 
> He has stated what he wants to do. Why do you find it so damned hard to support HIM? This is HIS thread not HERS! It is perfectly understandable that this was a deal breaker for him. Everyone here should be supporting this man in what he needs to heal. He wants to divorce and then proceed from there. That is perfectly understandable, and a solid course of action.
> 
> It feels like to many here have been reading Hantei's WW's thread on SI, and then coming here to do her bidding. The purpose of this thread is to support Hantei...REMEMBER?


"You People?"

You seem not to like "You people" here on TAM.

And many of "You people" here do not visit SI, so that's probably not relevant.


----------



## Palodyne

MattMatt said:


> "You People?"
> 
> You seem not to like "You people" here on TAM.
> 
> And many of "You people" here do not visit SI, so that's probably not relevant.


No. That's not what I mean. By "YOU PEOPLE", I mean the ones that don't see what Hantei is going for. The ones that are trying to push him toward R when it is obviously not what he is working toward.

I'm not pitting SI against TAM, I like both sites. However, if you look back a few pages on Hantei's thread you will see many have been reading HER thread on SI. That was my only meaning.

All I want is for Hantei to be supported and helped to achieve his goals.


----------



## Nucking Futs

MattMatt said:


> "You People?"
> 
> You seem not to like "You people" here on TAM.
> 
> And many of "You people" here do not visit SI, so that's probably not relevant.


He's right though. There's a lot of posts pushing him to R when he's said repeatedly he's going to D. "You people" pushing R need to cut him some slack.


----------



## MattMatt

Nucking Futs said:


> He's right though. There's a lot of posts pushing him to R when he's said repeatedly he's going to D. "You people" pushing R need to cut him some slack.


He will do what he needs to do.

Doing what he needs to do might not be the same as doing what he wants to do.

He might want to stay with his wife but he might realise that he can not do that so he needs a divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sokillme

AkaHantei said:


> I do what I need to do and what I feel is the right way forward however I need to be sure I've considered all angles and view points. Ability to move on with clear conscience as @blahfridge rightfully put it is a key aspect for me. So I appreciate all posts and any input.
> 
> It's more complex than "dump a cheater" even if it is the net outcome.


Just make sure that you are not doing what is comfortable at the expense of what is right for you. Remember nothing good in life comes without risk. Don't settle for second best because it is comfortable and safe. That is no way to live.


----------



## Palodyne

MattMatt said:


> He might want to stay with his wife but he might realise that he can not do that so he needs a divorce.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 This is exactly the point I have been trying to make. He wants to divorce, see what else is out there. And if he finds nothing better, get back in contact with his EX. Maybe start dating her, and see if there is a future with her.

This is a totally logical way to proceed. It holds her accountable for her wayward deeds. And gives both of them the opportunity to make sure they are still right for each other. It is totally fair.


----------



## AkaHantei

sokillme said:


> Just make sure that you are not doing what is comfortable at the expense of what is right for you. Remember nothing good in life comes without risk. Don't settle for second best because it is comfortable and safe. That is no way to live.


You are right, but if I'd take a bystander position, I'd say that the whole discussion is now about which option D or R is "comfortable" and which is "right".'

As a person involved  I'd say only 3 things I'm certain about:
1. D is happening no matter what. Is there anything after that I don't know but if there is an afterlife, mathematically speaking D is a mandatory but not sufficient condition for it.
2. I am not reading SI and don't know what's going on there.
3. STBXW knows about 1, and I'm starting to get a feeling she decided to do something about it.


----------



## sokillme

AkaHantei said:


> You are right, but if I'd take a bystander position, I'd say that the whole discussion is now about which option D or R is "comfortable" and which is "right".'
> 
> As a person involved  I'd say only 3 things I'm certain about:
> 1. D is happening no matter what. Is there anything after that I don't know but if there is an afterlife, mathematically speaking D is a mandatory but not sufficient condition for it.
> 2. I am not reading SI and don't know what's going on there.
> 3. STBXW knows about 1, and I'm starting to get a feeling she decided to do something about it.


What make you get that feeling?


----------



## NotEasy

AkaHantei said:


> You are right, but if I'd take a bystander position, I'd say that the whole discussion is now about which option D or R is "comfortable" and which is "right".'
> 
> As a person involved  I'd say only 3 things I'm certain about:
> 1. D is happening no matter what. Is there anything after that I don't know but if there is an afterlife, mathematically speaking D is a mandatory but not sufficient condition for it.
> 2. I am not reading SI and don't know what's going on there.
> 3. STBXW knows about 1, and I'm starting to get a feeling she decided to do something about it.


As one of who might be put into the group of "you people", this (D then maybe R) is all I think should be considered, but it is up to Hantei to decide. 

I don't read SI either. What people say about it keeps me away. 

If she accepts D as the price for the affair then she learns the cost and probably would not be unfaithful again, either if remarried to Hantei or later married to someone else. My feeling for quite a while was she wanted the past to be forgotten with no lesson learnt, hopefully she is learning now. To R without any lessons learnt invites repeated affairs and failed R. 

But also the D should be without vindictiveness. You are not D to punish her, but to formalise a dead marriage and to help both of you move forward. And I think you are doing this. Like I said, there is a middle path, but it is hard to find.


----------



## MattMatt

Palodyne said:


> This is exactly the point I have been trying to make. He wants to divorce, see what else is out there. And if he finds nothing better, get back in contact with his EX. Maybe start dating her, and see if there is a future with her.
> 
> This is a totally logical way to proceed. It holds her accountable for her wayward deeds. And gives both of them the opportunity to make sure they are still right for each other. It is totally fair.


He doesn't want a divorce. But given the circumstances it is the only course of action that is available to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Palodyne

MattMatt said:


> He doesn't want a divorce. But given the circumstances it is the only course of action that is available to him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok. So I will change it to he "needs" to divorce instead of "wants" to divorce.


----------



## jld

AkaHantei said:


> Not sure I understood you, sorry.


When you divorce, it is over. It is official recognition that the marriage has died. Neither of you has any obligation to each other going forward, at least in an emotional sense. 

So if you do get together again at some point, it is with a clean slate, at least in some sense.


----------



## jld

Palodyne said:


> I am not a cheering section for ditch the b!tch. You people have become a cheering section for take her back. You have been asking Hantei, what can we do to help you eat this sh!t sandwich? What if she adds extra mayo, or mustard? We could offer extra cheese.
> 
> He has stated what he wants to do. Why do you find it so damned hard to support HIM? This is HIS thread not HERS! It is perfectly understandable that this was a deal breaker for him. Everyone here should be supporting this man in what he needs to heal. He wants to divorce and then proceed from there. That is perfectly understandable, and a solid course of action.
> 
> It feels like to many here have been reading Hantei's WW's thread on SI, and then coming here to do her bidding. The purpose of this thread is to support Hantei...REMEMBER?


Supporting someone does not necessarily mean telling them what they are doing is helpful to them if we do not think it truly is. Sometimes it means being able to look at things more objectively than the person involved, who is likely in an emotionally compromised state, is able to. It may mean telling them what they are doing may hurt them or their loved ones, even if they themselves cannot see it at the moment. 

I think we have all had a friend who has done that for us at one time or another. Some of us were, and are, grateful for that.


----------



## AkaHantei

sokillme said:


> What make you get that feeling?


Recent changes in her behavior.


----------



## jld

AkaHantei said:


> Recent changes in her behavior.


Please elaborate.


----------



## AkaHantei

jld said:


> When you divorce, it is over. It is official recognition that the marriage has died. Neither of you has any obligation to each other going forward, at least in an emotional sense.
> 
> So if you do get together again at some point, it is with a clean slate, at least in some sense.


I see and tend to agree.



jld said:


> Supporting someone does not necessarily mean telling them what they are doing is helpful to them if we do not think it truly is. Sometimes it means being able to look at things more objectively than the person involved, who is likely in an emotionally compromised state, is able to. It may mean telling them what they are doing may hurt them or their loved ones, even if they themselves cannot see it at the moment.
> 
> I think we have all had a friend who has done that for us at one time or another. Some of us were, and are, grateful for that.


I agree with this as well , thank you. Prefer friends encouraging to do what is right not necessary what is "best".


----------



## farsidejunky

AkaHantei said:


> Recent changes in her behavior.


In what way?


----------



## AkaHantei

farsidejunky said:


> In what way?


 Changes in her approach towards handling this whole s&(#!t in general and her attempts to R I particular which I'd call - fit the lack of a better description- more mature and systematic.


----------



## syhoybenden

Hmmm, Hantei. This may be a good thing. 

Perhaps she's starting to think more clearly now given her distancing herself from her family of origin. 

Perhaps she's getting ready to take the bull by the tail and face the situation.


----------



## Tron

Interesting.


----------



## farsidejunky

Honest question, Hantei.

Is there any hint of retribution in your wanting to divorce before considering R?

Thanks in advance for indulging me.


----------



## AkaHantei

farsidejunky said:


> Honest question, Hantei.
> 
> Is there any hint of retribution in your wanting to divorce before considering R?
> 
> Thanks in advance for indulging me.


The honest answer is don't know what could be called "retribution" in that context. I guessnI'm simply divorcing because I don't want to be married "like that" after what's happened. Certainly not a strategy off "scaring her back" into R. As someone who's opinion I respect pointed to me after the divorce the chances of R are slim to none.


----------



## becareful2

AkaHantei said:


> As someone who's opinion I respect pointed to me after the divorce the chances of R are slim to none.


Plenty of couples have successfully reconciled, but it requires showing grace and mercy to the truly remorseful wayward. See Lonely Husband's thread.


----------



## TDSC60

becareful2 said:


> Plenty of couples have successfully reconciled, but it requires showing grace and mercy to the truly remorseful wayward. See Lonely Husband's thread.


I still have an uneasy feeling about Lonely Husband's wife. She instigated an almost sexless marriage for 5 years, asked for a separation several times, yet when he finally caught her cheating all of a sudden she has a miracle about-face when he leaves the area and has divorce papers prepared.

Not unheard of, but most of the time it is the fear of loss of their life style and not love of a husband that causes that.


----------



## becareful2

TDSC60 said:


> I still have an uneasy feeling about Lonely Husband's wife. She instigated an almost sexless marriage for 5 years, asked for a separation several times, yet when he finally caught her cheating all of a sudden she has a miracle about-face when he leaves the area and has divorce papers prepared.
> 
> Not unheard of, but most of the time it is the fear of loss of their life style and not love of a husband that causes that.


This is incorrect. His PTSD and stress from work made him shut her out emotionally for about 5 years. She then sought emotional intimacy from someone else. She exchanged sex for emotional intimacy. That's one of the big reasons LH reconciled, because he accepted his part in shutting her out.

As for the fear of the loss of her lifestyle, she would have been a multimillionaire had he divorced her. She could have walked away but she said had he divorced her, she would have chased him to the ends of the earth to win him back. After he revealed he had PTSD, she said she felt like a POS and became very remorseful. She never knew about the demons she brought home from the war. She later signed the post-nup without hesitation, and even later on she donated her portion from what she would have received had they divorced, to their charitable foundation, which meant that if he divorces her now, she'd end up with nothing. She was saying through her actions that she is putting her life and future in his hands, because she loves him and trusts him when he said that he loves her more than he loves his own life.


----------



## TDSC60

becareful2 said:


> This is incorrect. His PTSD and stress from work made him shut her out emotionally for about 5 years. She then sought emotional intimacy from someone else. She exchanged sex for emotional intimacy. That's one of the big reasons LH reconciled, because he accepted his part in shutting her out.
> 
> As for the fear of the loss of her lifestyle, she would have been a multimillionaire had he divorced her. She could have walked away but she said had he divorced her, she would have chased him to the ends of the earth to win him back. After he revealed he had PTSD, she said she felt like a POS and became very remorseful. She never knew about the demons she brought home from the war. She later signed the post-nup without hesitation, and even later on she donated her portion from what she would have received had they divorced, to their charitable foundation, which meant that if he divorces her now, she'd end up with nothing. She was saying through her actions that she is putting her life and future in his hands, because she loves him and trusts him when he said that he loves her more than he loves his own life.


They reconciled BEFORE he revealed his PTSD and sought help for it. I think. Could be wrong, without going back and rereading his thread.


----------



## becareful2

TDSC60 said:


> They reconciled BEFORE he revealed his PTSD and sought help for it. I think. Could be wrong, without going back and rereading his thread.


Not true. He revealed he had PTSD the night he came back into the house to talk. They both broke down and cried. She then asked if he would give her a chance and when he agreed, she was so happy, she leapt into his lap and kissed/hugged him.


----------



## Absurdist

AkaHantei said:


> The honest answer is don't know what could be called "retribution" in that context. I guessnI'm simply divorcing because I don't want to be married "like that" after what's happened. Certainly not a strategy off "scaring her back" into R. As someone who's opinion I respect pointed to me after the divorce the chances of R are slim to none.


Hantei - retribution is punishment of a wrongdoer which brings about a sense of justice.

My son is writing a book about people who have witnessed the execution of men who murdered a loved one. They actually got to see the person die. None of them.... none of them.... found justice... or satisfaction... or closure ... only emptiness.

Hantei make sure you are divorcing for the right reason. If it's justice and vindication you're looking for, you won't find it. If it's rebirth, well that's an entirely different discussion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Absurdist said:


> Hantei - retribution is punishment of a wrongdoer which brings about a sense of justice.
> 
> My son is writing a book about people who have witnessed the execution of men who murdered a loved one. They actually got to see the person die. None of them.... none of them.... found justice... or satisfaction... or closure ... only emptiness.
> 
> Hantei make sure you are divorcing for the right reason. If it's justice and vindication you're looking for, you won't find it. If it's rebirth, well that's an entirely different discussion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is exactly why I asked.


----------



## turnera

TDSC60 said:


> I still have an uneasy feeling about Lonely Husband's wife. She instigated an almost sexless marriage for 5 years, asked for a separation several times, yet when he finally caught her cheating all of a sudden she has a miracle about-face when he leaves the area and has divorce papers prepared.
> 
> Not unheard of, but most of the time it is the fear of loss of their life style and not love of a husband that causes that.


I'll disagree. How many husbands come here complaining that the wife just...faded away into a roommate existence, took her husband for granted, assumed the marriage would always be there...and we tell him to remove himself from her so that she can realize what she's about to lose. Aside from the cheating, that's the same thing she was doing. Taking him and the marriage for granted. All of us do it to an extent. And it's human nature to crave what you suddenly can't have any more.


----------



## bandit.45

Can I throw a question out there? 

What if one evening Hentai sees his wife wearing something that really turns him on, and he gets a rager, the kid isn't around, and H feels the need to bend her over the couch and give her a proper seeing-to...would that be a bad thing?


----------



## Tron

bandit.45 said:


> Can I throw a question out there?
> 
> What if one evening Hentai sees his wife wearing something that really turns him on, and he gets a rager, the kid isn't around, and H feels the need to bend her over the couch and give her a proper seeing-to...would that be a bad thing?


Hmmm. 

If she's game, married or no, is it ever a bad thing?

Is that a trick question? :scratchhead:


----------



## alte Dame

bandit.45 said:


> Can I throw a question out there?
> 
> What if one evening Hentai sees his wife wearing something that really turns him on, and he gets a rager, the kid isn't around, and H feels the need to bend her over the couch and give her a proper seeing-to...would that be a bad thing?


LOL - probably not a bad thing.


----------



## AkaHantei

alte Dame said:


> LOL - probably not a bad thing.


Not bad for whom? Guess it depends


----------



## Dyokemm

Absurdist said:


> Hantei - retribution is punishment of a wrongdoer which brings about a sense of justice.
> 
> My son is writing a book about people who have witnessed the execution of men who murdered a loved one. They actually got to see the person die. None of them.... none of them.... found justice... or satisfaction... or closure ... only emptiness.
> 
> Hantei make sure you are divorcing for the right reason. If it's justice and vindication you're looking for, you won't find it. If it's rebirth, well that's an entirely different discussion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's interesting......wonder if the author 'cherry-picked' victim family members though.

60 Minutes, just a couple weeks ago, had a segment on a botched lethal injection in Arizona where the condemned took something like 45 minutes to die.

They interviewed family members of the victims (a father and a daughter....killer was an estranged bf of hers), and they said they didn't feel an ounce of care that the guy died in a botched execution.

They were just very gratified that he had received justice finally for what he had done.

IMO, for every person that felt no closure or sense of justice, one could find another who felt peace that justice had been done.

Just another example of what I have always believed.....

Some people are very uncomfortable with the idea of retribution or revenge.....they will not seek it, and the very idea makes them uneasy.

Others have a strong urge for it....and they will not rest until some form of justice has been served.

It's up to Hantei to decide what type of person he is.


----------



## AkaHantei

I'm with that father on that one. But I have 0 desire for punishing her or enjoying a sweetness of any revenge here. As a fact I'm trying my best to make it as much painless as I can. Divorcing because ATM I see no other way forward.





Dyokemm said:


> That's interesting......wonder if the author 'cherry-picked' victim family members though.
> 
> 60 Minutes, just a couple weeks ago, had a segment on a botched lethal injection in Arizona where the condemned took something like 45 minutes to die.
> 
> They interviewed family members of the victims (a father and a daughter....killer was an estranged bf of hers), and they said they didn't feel an ounce of care that the guy died in a botched execution.
> 
> They were just very gratified that he had received justice finally for what he had done.
> 
> IMO, for every person that felt no closure or sense of justice, one could find another who felt peace that justice had been done.
> 
> Just another example of what I have always believed.....
> 
> Some people are very uncomfortable with the idea of retribution or revenge.....they will not seek it, and the very idea makes them uneasy.
> 
> Others have a strong urge for it....and they will not rest until some form of justice has been served.
> 
> It's up to Hantei to decide what type of person he is.


----------



## Dyokemm

AkaHantei said:


> I'm with that father on that one. But I have 0 desire for punishing her or enjoying a sweetness of any revenge here. As a fact I'm trying my best to make it as much painless as I can. Divorcing because ATM I see no other way forward.


Guess I should have been more clear in the story.....the victims were the father and daughter.

They were working in the family business together when the sh*tbag ex bf walked in and shot them both to death.

The people interviewed on the show were other kids in the family.


----------



## NotEasy

For me, No and maybe OK on a technicality.

No because it signals the marriage is back on, which it isn't. It would be cruel to D after signalling the marriage is on. And of course if the marriage is back on then, WTF, I missed the change of heart post.

And the technicality is they are still married. So they can do what couples do.

Also I wonder if it would change the 12 months run up to divorce. Legally are you still separated? Or have you just skewered yourself on a technicality and reset the clock. Doubtful, but who knows.

In a bad divorce I would also fear rape charges. But I doubt that applies here.


----------



## bandit.45

I remember that from when I lived in AZ. 

There was a short lived movement to bring back firing squad. 

No I'm not joking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## syhoybenden




----------



## AkaHantei

bandit.45 said:


> ...and H feels the need to ...


The thing is, I don't. And that's the whole issue if you want to know.




NotEasy said:


> WTF, I missed the change of heart post.


No you have not (missed). And yes we are separated and clock is ticking.


----------



## jld

I read your wife's posts on SI recently, Hantei. It could be a gift to her if you continue with the divorce. It may be the only thing that could allow your wife to become independent of both you and her mother.

There is the chance she simply cannot become independent, though. Far mentioned she seems like a deep submissive, basically a very dependent person. If you ever come to feel any responsibility for that, the brokenness she is experiencing now and will continue to feel from the divorce will likely come to weigh on your conscience.


----------



## NotEasy

jld said:


> I read your wife's posts on SI recently, Hantei. It could be a gift to her if you continue with the divorce. It may be the only thing that could allow your wife to become independent of both you and her mother.
> 
> There is the chance she simply cannot become independent, though. Far mentioned she seems like a deep submissive, basically a very dependent person. If you ever come to feel any responsibility for that, the brokenness she is experiencing now and will continue to feel from the divorce will likely come to weigh on your conscience.


The more I think about the idea that she is totally dependent / submissive like this scares me. If it is true it would be another nail in the coffin of the marriage. 

Part of my fear is how can a marriage be rebuilt if one spouse is just a puppet? Another thread was talking about Catholic annulments. One ground for annulment is if someone was not adult enough to make their marriage vow. Annulments generally seem wrong to me, but in this case I see similar idea, how can reconcilliation be attempted if one spouse is a totally dependent puppet? 

Previously I thought her SI thread might have opened a small possibility of reconcilliation. Now it looks like it is just one more problem.

I haven't read SI and don't intend to. All this is only going off what others say. Hantei you are closer.

I would see any responsibility to her to be more to guide her into independence, to help her to grow up. Therapy might be an answer, if we weren't Aussies. 

Sounds like you have a son and an older daughter.


----------



## TDSC60

Nucking Futs said:


> She's right you know. You might come to feel some guilt that you're not there to control her, since, you know, women have no agency and need a man to lead and guide them in all things.
> 
> Also, you may feel guilty that she can't reach things on high shelves any more. And who's going to open those tight jars?! If you don't get back together, has she had her last pickle?
> 
> Oh, wait, she already found someone else to give her the pickle. *Maybe, just maybe, Hantei doesn't need to take responsibility for her. Maybe, just maybe, we can presume she is an entire person in her own right.*


Hantei is not responsible for her life after divorce just as he is not responsible for her actions and lies that got them to this point.

Actions and words have consequences and we all must play the cards that are dealt to us. 

For Hantei to "help" her fix herself going forward, he would need to commit emotionally and intimately to her for several more years. This would prevent him from his own recovery and cause additional pain over her betrayal. He needs to protect himself at this point and I think that means moving forward with his own life after divorce.


----------



## jld

No defensiveness on this thread . . . 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TDSC60

jld said:


> No defensiveness on this thread . . .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just a healthy difference of opinion.


----------



## oneMOreguy

jld said:


> No defensiveness on this thread . . .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think they are merely trying to illustrate that he does not have to feel guilty about refusing to accept responsibility for fixing her brokeness. Accepting responsibility is something healthy adults can choose to either do or not do. 

JLD......you almost seem to encourage something akin to a KISA/co dependent relationship. I know many marriages are like this, but it can have unhealthy results. 

But I am no professional and don't want to get caught up in the typical back and forth of theories. ...like most engineers, I try to boil things down to the simplest concept possible to keep things workable.

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


----------



## bandit.45

AkaHantei said:


> The thing is, I don't. And that's the whole issue if you want to know.
> 
> .


Her ass is getting pretty huge huh? She's been munching too much vegemite?


----------



## oneMOreguy

....and maybe this is just one of those cases where the ws comes back because she realizes she can't really do better than what she had, and the bh then leaves because he realizes that he can do better and deserves better than the person he knows realizes his ws is. simple concept. 

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

She said in her thread that he was not emotionally available (my understanding). She needed more communication.

Is she not a native English speaker, Hantei? I got the impression her family emigrated to Australia from a more conservative culture. Sounded like there might be some cultural differences in play.

At any rate, I think she loves you and would never cheat again. But whatever you decide is certainly up to you.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> She said in her thread that he was not emotionally available (my understanding). She needed more communication.
> 
> Is she not a native English speaker, Hantei? I got the impression her family emigrated to Australia from a more conservative culture. Sounded like there might be some cultural differences in play.
> 
> At any rate, I think she loves you and would never cheat again. *But whatever you decide is certainly up to you.*


You say this as if he had not said over and over in this thread that the decision is made and he is divorcing.


----------



## jld

oneMOreguy said:


> I think they are merely trying to illustrate that he does not have to feel guilty about refusing to accept responsibility for fixing her brokeness. Accepting responsibility is something healthy adults can choose to either do or not do.
> 
> JLD......you almost seem to encourage something akin to a KISA/co dependent relationship. I know many marriages are like this, but it can have unhealthy results.
> 
> But I am no professional and don't want to get caught up in the typical back and forth of theories. ...like most engineers, I try to boil things down to the simplest concept possible to keep things workable.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


I just try to be realistic, Onemoreguy. Most women, according to Gottman, accept influence from their husbands. Most men, according to his research, do not accept influence from their wives. 

If men have that kind of power in their marriages, I think they have an ethical obligation to use it wisely.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> You say this as if he had not said over and over in this thread that the decision is made and he is divorcing.


I think he may have waivered a bit recently.


----------



## TDSC60

jld said:


> I just try to be realistic, Onemoreguy. Most women, according to Gottman, accept influence from their husbands. *Most men, according to his research, do not accept influence from their wives. *
> 
> If men have that kind of power in their marriages, I think they have an ethical obligation to use it wisely.


And there is the problem with statistics and "research". 

Both partners in a marriage are influenced to some extent by the other regardless if they are willing to admit it or not.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> Well by all means then if he has shown a little weakness you should help his ww to exploit it. It's not as if what's good for him matters to you, only what's good for the ww.


I do not think reconsidering divorce is "weakness." And I am not convinced reconciliation without therapy for both is in either of their interests.


----------



## syhoybenden

jld said:


> I do not think reconsidering divorce is "weakness." And I am not convinced reconciliation without therapy for both is in either of their interests.



:slap: :iagree:

Hell has indeed frozen over. We are in agreement.


----------



## Tron

Nucking Futs said:


> Well by all means then if he has shown a little weakness you should help his ww to exploit it. It's not as if what's good for him matters to you, only what's good for the ww.


I don't think he has shown any weakness either way. He certainly has not wavered on any of his decisions so far. 

I don't often agree with jld, but insofar as someone who reconciles being weak, I think making such a blanket statement is ignorant and close-minded. 

People make bad decisions. People make mistakes. Noone is perfect. And sometimes they earn a second chance. I will wait and see about the STBX Ms. Hantei. 

And just FTR, I don't think that a belief that she won't do it again quite qualifies as "earning" a second chance. 

What I would like to talk about though is why Aussie's are so anti-counseling. What's up with that?


----------



## Tron

syhoybenden said:


> :slap: :iagree:
> 
> Hell has indeed frozen over. We are in agreement.


LMAO!

I've had 2 of those moments now. I'm starting to wonder if I'm losing my mind!





Sorry jld, I jest.


----------



## NotEasy

Tron said:


> I don't think he has shown any weakness either way. He certainly has not wavered on any of his decisions so far.
> 
> I don't often agree with jld, but insofar as someone who reconciles being weak, I think making such a blanket statement is ignorant and close-minded.


Agreed


Tron said:


> People make bad decisions. People make mistakes. Noone is perfect. And sometimes they earn a second chance. I will wait and see about the STBX Ms. Hantei.
> 
> And just FTR, I don't think that a belief that she won't do it again quite qualifies as "earning" a second chance.


Agreed


Tron said:


> What I would like to talk about though is why Aussie's are so anti-counseling. What's up with that?


from post 1502, see the bold


AkaHantei said:


> ...
> Have a hope therapy is not required for him. For me - * I know it's irrational - its akin of giving up*. So thanks but no thanks for now.
> ...


Certainly a common Aussie male opinion. Can't speak for the females, but maybe the same too.

Also we don't have a history of therapy, it is not on our TV shows.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Nucking Futs said:


> Well by all means then if he has shown a little weakness you should help his ww to exploit it. It's not as if what's good for him matters to you, only what's good for the ww.





jld said:


> I do not think reconsidering divorce is "weakness." And I am not convinced reconciliation without therapy for both is in either of their interests.





syhoybenden said:


> :slap: :iagree:
> 
> Hell has indeed frozen over. We are in agreement.





Tron said:


> I don't think he has shown any weakness either way. He certainly has not wavered on any of his decisions so far.
> 
> I don't often agree with jld, but insofar as someone who reconciles being weak, I think making such a blanket statement is ignorant and close-minded.
> 
> People make bad decisions. People make mistakes. Noone is perfect. And sometimes they earn a second chance. I will wait and see about the STBX Ms. Hantei.
> 
> And just FTR, I don't think that a belief that she won't do it again quite qualifies as "earning" a second chance.
> 
> What I would like to talk about though is why Aussie's are so anti-counseling. What's up with that?


Just to clear up this little misunderstanding, when I said "shown a little weakness" I was referring to a weakening of his resolve to D, not that R is for the weak.


----------



## Tron

Hasn't made it to the tv yet? Unbelievable.

It seems we can't change the channel and get away from it. Radio or tv.

Oprah, Iyanla, dr phil, dr Laura, Laura Berman, dr jenn, marriage boot camp... They are all doing well here in the US.

Hmmmm. Opportunity knocks. 

Maybe I should give up my day job, move to oz and get something going down under.


----------



## Marc878

IMO anyone who reconciles has to accept they were and are plan B. If they weren't the affair wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Not everyone is capable of accepting that. You can ignore it or choose to rugsweep it but that doesn't change the facts much.


----------



## NotEasy

Marc878 said:


> IMO anyone who reconciles has to accept they were and are plan B. If they weren't the affair wouldn't have happened in the first place.
> 
> Not everyone is capable of accepting that. You can ignore it or choose to rugsweep it but that doesn't change the facts much.


Kind of, but not.

Firstly not,... because Hantei is not considering R. So who cares.

Secondly kind of,.... because yes at some time the betrayed was plan B. But many waywards are not thinking clearly. I don't get how anyone can think they wont be caught, the only way is by not thinking. 
I think many don't see it as plan A and plan B, as if that they have to choose one. Instead they want both, and think they can have both.
When starting to R the danger is that you may be plan B and may remain such for some time. Part of No Contact is to only leave one option, hopefully. 
I don't think it is rugsweeping to go into R with some doubts. There needs to be serious work to remove doubts, rebuild trust and fix whatever character flaws, behaviours, life style, whatever, that aided the affair. If that work is not done and R is just cross your fingers and carry on; well that is rugsweeping.
Later, either you stop being plan B or you should give up. Of course, later, how do you know you are no longer plan B? After all your spouse was lying for so long. So how do you know they are now telling the truth?
But all this is academic to Hantei.


----------



## jld

Tron said:


> People make bad decisions. People make mistakes. Noone is perfect. And sometimes they earn a second chance. I will wait and see about the STBX Ms. Hantei.
> 
> And just FTR, I don't think that a belief that she won't do it again quite qualifies as "earning" a second chance.


I do not see this as either of them "earning a second chance." I do not see the affair as the main event here, either. It is rather the outgrowth of the perhaps unseen problems of the two individuals involved and their interaction in their marriage. 

The way I see it, those unseen (and unresolved) problems are the main event, and would require honest examination and action from both of them were reconciliation on the table.

Hantei, it sounds like you do not want reconciliation. Go with that. Your wife can benefit from that closed door. She will either accept it and become more independent because of it, eventually meet someone else who better meets her needs, eke out a miserable existence perhaps dying of despair, or figure out yet some other option moving forward. We just cannot be sure at this point how things will go for her in the future.

But however things go for her is not really your responsibility, at least not technically, unless you choose to make it your responsibility. And your strong desire to divorce indicates to me you have no real desire to do that. 

To you, the cheating was the main, basically unforgivable, event. The very best thing your wife can do for herself right now is to accept that--really accept that in her heart, and move forward in her own now autonomous life.

I sincerely hope she can do that. And to that end, counseling seems essential.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> I do not see this as either of them "earning a second chance." I do not see the affair as the main event here, either. It is rather the outgrowth of the perhaps unseen problems of the two individuals involved and their interaction in their marriage.
> 
> The way I see it, those unseen (and unresolved) problems are the main event, and would require honest examination and action from both of them were reconciliation on the table.t


So, we shouldn't take the two participants at their word that it was a good marriage? We should, instead, look for something that has hitherto been "unseen". Except by you, jld?

Yes, folks! it's another world-beating strategy from the same people that brought you "Kiss your WW arse, it's your fault she's a cheater".



> To you, the cheating was the main, basically unforgivable, event.


It is the main event that ended the marriage. Most men find this very easy to understand.


----------



## bandit.45

I've read the STBXWW's thread in SI. She admits there was nothing wrong with the marriage. She loves Hentai and wants nothing more than to reconcile. 

She got bored and was looking for an escape from being a wife and mom. Same old story. 

She has no ability to stick to it though. Like most waywards on that site she stuck around for maybe two weeks. When she wasn't getting the answers she wanted she bailed. Typical.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> I've read the STBXWW's thread in SI. She admits there was nothing wrong with the marriage. She loves Hentai and wants nothing more than to reconcile.
> 
> She got bored and was looking for an escape from being a wife and mom. Same old story.
> 
> She has no ability to stick to it though. Like most waywards on that site she stuck around for maybe two weeks. When she wasn't getting the answers she wanted she bailed. Typical.


She indicated she did not feel emotionally connected to Hantei, that he was not much of a communicator. The other man was, and he filled that void, temporarily.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> She indicated she did not feel emotionally connected to Hantei, that he was not much of a communicator. The other man was, and he filled that void, temporarily.


Yes let me paraphrase what she said. 

Hantei was a good husband, true, and excellent provider and wonderful dad, but because he was not the bottomless fount of passion, excitement, fun, and fantasy that she needed 24/7, she was forced to find that intravenous flow of rainbow milk from another shlub. 

Oh but now he is all she wants in a man. How could she have been so foolish?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

This is what my life has digressed to: I'm home alone on a Saturday evening arguing with jld. 

My god.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

bandit.45 said:


> Yes let me paraphrase what she said.
> 
> Hantei was a good husband, true, and excellent provider and wonderful dad, but because he was not the bottomless fount of passion, excitement, fun, and fantasy that she needed 24/7, she was forced to find that intravenous flow of rainbow milk from another shlub.
> 
> Oh but now he is all she wants in a man. How could she have been so foolish?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You forgot how dismayed she was at how fast the unicorns and golden rainbows vanished without even waving goodbye. Those damn unicorns never carry condoms either so I guess she was lucky she didn't come away preggers :surprise:


----------



## Marc878

The other thing I might add since I'm on the subject. Unicorn dung!!! It's really stinky stuff and the pungent odor never seems to quite dissipate. It's sticky too. Really hard to scrape off your shoes n stuff.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Yes let me paraphrase what she said.
> 
> Hantei was a good husband, true, and excellent provider and wonderful dad, but because he was not the bottomless fount of passion, excitement, fun, and fantasy that she needed 24/7, she was forced to find that intravenous flow of rainbow milk from another shlub.
> 
> Oh but now he is all she wants in a man. How could she have been so foolish?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She said he was a man of actions, not words. But we all know, per Dr. Harley's HNHN, that women need intimate conversation. The OM met that void in her.

She is not emotionally independent. With counseling, she may make some progress, though. Or she may eventually meet someone who is willing and able to meet her needs.


----------



## SunCMars

jld said:


> She said he was a man of actions, not words. But we all know, per Dr. Harley's HNHN, that women need intimate conversation. The OM met that void in her.
> 
> She is not emotionally independent. With counseling, she may make some progress, though. Or she may eventually meet someone who is willing and able to meet her needs.


Sure!

*What* she wants in a man...she has none. A dearth of character, intellect, flash or common sense.

She casts no shadow.....so thin is she.


----------



## 225985

jld said:


> She said he was a man of actions, not words. But we all know, per Dr. Harley's HNHN, that women need intimate conversation. The OM met that void in her.
> 
> 
> 
> .




Maybe the OM was listening to her and engaging in conversation because he wanted to get into her pants.


----------



## jld

blueinbr said:


> Maybe the OM was listening to her and engaging in conversation because he wanted to get into her pants.


Of course. He did not love her at all. She is naive and was manipulated.


----------



## Marc878

jld said:


> She said he was a man of actions, not words. But we all know, per Dr. Harley's HNHN, that women need intimate conversation. The OM met that void in her.
> 
> She is not emotionally independent. With counseling, she may make some progress, though. Or she may eventually meet someone who is willing and able to meet her needs.


No, I think OM just filled her void a couple times.


----------



## Dyokemm

blueinbr said:


> Maybe the OM was listening to her and engaging in conversation because he wanted to get into her pants.


Yep.....because he was so 'evolved' in his views on relationships.


----------



## 225985

jld said:


> She is naive and was manipulated.




The myth that the cheating wife is manipulated by the male "player" is just that. And it is very sexist. Cheaters imo always know what they are doing with eyes wide open. By choice.


----------



## jld

blueinbr said:


> The myth that the cheating wife is manipulated by the male "player" is just that. And it is very sexist. Cheaters - cough, cough - imo always know what they are doing with eyes wide open. By choice.


You might have. That does not mean she did.

Actually, clearly she did not. Once she contacted OM after spilling out her feelings to Hantei, he abandoned her. She clearly did not see that coming. Very naive woman.


----------



## 225985

jld said:


> You might have. That does not mean she did.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, clearly she did not. Once she contacted OM after spilling out her feelings to Hantei, he abandoned her. She clearly did not see that coming. Very naive woman.




Are you shocked an AP will leave once the affair is exposed?? Happens very often. She went INTO the affair knowingly and willingly. No naivety there. Poor cheating woman was a victim because her AP left? Jeez. 

Stop projecting that all women are naive and victims of men.


----------



## jld

blueinbr said:


> Are you shocked an AP will leave once the affair is exposed?? Happens very often. She went INTO the affair knowingly and willingly. No naivety there. Poor cheating woman was a victim because her AP left? Jeez.
> 
> Stop projecting that all women are naive and victims of men.


Who says it is just women?

We do not know her state of mind well enough to make that sort of judgment accurately. Some people are indeed naive, and get in over their heads.


----------



## 225985

jld said:


> Who says it is just women?
> 
> 
> 
> We do not know her state of mind well enough to make that sort of judgment accurately. Some people are indeed naive, and get in over their heads.



Yes it is not just woman. 

Reread posts 1, 10 and 12 to understand her state of mind. Yes we only have one side. We always have just one side.


----------



## jld

blueinbr said:


> Yes it is not just woman.
> 
> Reread posts 1, 10 and 12 to understand her state of mind. Yes we only have one side. We always have just one side.


Her thread is available, too.

Blue, have you been to counseling? 

Therapists consider what a client or clients may say, but they also use their experience to understand what is going on.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> Which is why you don't have a ****ing clue what you're talking about.


NF, always so respectful, a real gentleman.


----------



## bandit.45

I like jld. She and I may disagree on most things but I respect her right to her opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TDSC60

bandit.45 said:


> I like jld. She and I may disagree on most things but I respect her right to her opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Everyone has an opinion and the right to state that opinion.

Disagreeing with the opinion does not mean you have to disrespect the person.


----------



## bandit.45

TDSC60 said:


> Everyone has an opinion and the right to state that opinion.
> 
> Disagreeing with the opinion does not mean you have to disrespect the person.


Do you think I disrespected her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> I like jld. She and I may disagree on most things but I respect her right to her opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like you, too, bandit. I respect you.

And really, wouldn't this place be boring if we all saw everything the same way all the time?


----------



## TDSC60

bandit.45 said:


> Do you think I disrespected her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not at all.

I agreed with your post.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> I like you, too, bandit. I respect you.
> 
> And really, wouldn't this place be boring if we all saw everything the same way all the time?


I was lonely and pissed off last night and took it out on you. I apologize.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> I was lonely and pissed off last night and took it out on you. I apologize.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's okay. Honestly, I do not even remember it. Was it on this thread?


----------



## Palodyne

Hantei, I hope things ae going well for you. You haven't posted in a while, I just wanted to say I hope you and yours are doing well. Good luck.


----------



## AkaHantei

Palodyne said:


> Hantei, I hope things ae going well for you. You haven't posted in a while, I just wanted to say I hope you and yours are doing well. Good luck.


Thank you, I'm ok. Still visiting his forum from time to time, not posting though. Nothing outstanding to report, BAU draining divorcing/separating holding the fort stuff. More then half way there.


----------



## Marc878

AkaHantei said:


> Thank you, I'm ok. Still visiting his forum from time to time, not posting though. Nothing outstanding to report, BAU draining divorcing/separating holding the fort stuff. More then half way there.


Have you started detachment yet? If you can do at least a modified 180 it'll help you move forward easier.

Good luck


----------



## bandit.45

AkaHantei said:


> Thank you, I'm ok. Still visiting his forum from time to time, not posting though. Nothing outstanding to report, BAU draining divorcing/separating holding the fort stuff. More then half way there.


I feel so sorry for you Aussie blokes.


----------



## TDSC60

bandit.45 said:


> I feel so sorry for you Aussie blokes.


Me too. The one year separation requirement is BS.

My State has a one years separation requirement before divorce is final under "No Fault" conditions. But if infidelity is involved a divorce can go through in about 3 months. Plus, proven infidelity eliminates any possible spousal support payments.

Keep taking care of yourself and your son.


----------



## Sephirox

Best wishes to you Hantei, keep working on yourself and hopefully things will look up soon.


----------



## bandit.45

AkaHantei said:


> Thank you, I'm ok. Still visiting his forum from time to time, not posting though. Nothing outstanding to report, BAU draining divorcing/separating holding the fort stuff. More then half way there.


Where is your WW living now. Has she refrained from dating, or has she given up on trying to get you to agree to reconciliation and started to act single again?


----------



## Tron

bandit.45 said:


> Where is your WW living now. Has she refrained from dating, or has she given up on trying to get you to agree to reconciliation and started to act single again?


I was wondering the same.

Last we heard she was being more mature and meticulous in her approach towards you. Has that continued or has she given up?


----------



## bandit.45

Tron said:


> I was wondering the same.
> 
> Last we heard she was being more mature and meticulous in her approach towards you. Has that continued or has she given up?


Given her past performance I would imagine she is already dating, or it won't be long before she will be. Fortunately, Hantai seems to be at the "_getting to where I couldn't give a fvck_" stage of his recovery.


----------



## AkaHantei

The living arrangement has not changed - she's renting and visits as agreed. I'm not spying or monitoring her but as far as I can see there is no dating. Someone who's really close to her and is trying hard to get us together used the "she may meet someone" line in a future tense. E.g. if I won't change my position she may move on. Whatever. Her efforts haven't stopped but are getting "repeatable" 

In any case I definitely have other priorities in mind now. That ship has sailed for good.


----------



## GusPolinski

AkaHantei said:


> The living arrangement has not changed - she's renting and visits as agreed. I'm not spying or monitoring her but as far as I can see there is no dating. *Someone who's really close to her and is trying hard to get us together used the "she may meet someone" line in a future tense. E.g. if I won't change my position she may move on.* Whatever. Her efforts haven't stopped but are getting "repeatable"
> 
> In any case I definitely have other priorities in mind now. That ship has sailed for good.


"Oh, well maybe you haven't heard -- she did that months ago."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

To those that ask did you ever loved her, yes if I had loved her less I could have reconciled.


----------



## HEIDI84

bandit.45 said:


> Where is your WW living now. Has she refrained from dating, or has she given up on trying to get you to agree to reconciliation and started to act single again?


https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/57f1c3745a2ae/Screenshot_2016-10-02-21-56-04.png?



AkaHantei said:


> Thank you, I'm ok. Still visiting his forum from time to time, not posting though. Nothing outstanding to report, BAU draining divorcing/separating holding the fort stuff. More then half way there.



Sent from my N9130 using Tapatalk


----------



## HEIDI84

HEIDI84 said:


> https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/57f1c3745a2ae/Screenshot_2016-10-02-21-56-04.png?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my N9130 using Tapatalk


Aka Hantei any suggestions

Sent from my N9130 using Tapatalk


----------



## Vulcan2013

HEIDI84 said:


> Aka Hantei any suggestions
> 
> Sent from my N9130 using Tapatalk


You can start a new thread and page other members by putting an @ in front of their user name.


----------



## HEIDI84

Vulcan2013 said:


> You can start a new thread and page other members by putting an @ in front of their user name.


Thank u lol

Sent from my N9130 using Tapatalk


----------



## syhoybenden

So Hantei ..... how's it going? I mean, really? Really?


----------



## syhoybenden

I mean, ..... hmmmm ..... It's the cutting off your nose to spite your face thing. I feel for you man. Are you sure?


----------



## Palodyne

AkaHantei said:


> The living arrangement has not changed - she's renting and visits as agreed. I'm not spying or monitoring her but as far as I can see there is no dating. Someone who's really close to her and is trying hard to get us together used the "she may meet someone" line in a future tense. E.g. if I won't change my position she may move on. Whatever. Her efforts haven't stopped but are getting "repeatable"
> 
> In any case I definitely have other priorities in mind now. That ship has sailed for good.


Stay strong brother. Her meeting someone is a past event. Take care of yourself and your son. Concentrate on your happiness, and your sons, moving forward. You and your son seem to be moving along happily. Good luck.


----------



## bankshot1993

@AkaHantei 

H, just wondering how everyone is doing?


----------



## ocdude

AkaHantei:

Your story is one of decision and strength in my memory of reading it. Please do give us an update of how you and your WW are doing..


----------



## Palodyne

AkaHantie, I know it's been a while, but how are things going? Good we all hope. None of us have forgotten you and your son, and hope you are well. Please give us an update when you feel comfortable, stay strong brother.


----------



## Palodyne

:wink2:


----------



## 86857

@AkaHantei 
Hi Hantei. 
I haven't been on here for close to a year. 
Hope all is well with you and your son.


----------



## Palodyne

Hey, how are things going? I imagine you must be at the point of divorce, if not divorced by now. Any updates?


----------



## AkaHantei

I wasn't going to post any more updates. However out of respect of people here, who were helping me, here's one:

Yes, I'm divorced but what I think matters more than a piece of legal paperwork - I am a totally different man now. Al least that's how I feel.


----------



## Chaparral

I hope that's in a good way.
Congratulations?


----------



## Don't Panic

Hantei!

THANK YOU for checking in. Your's was the first story I read here on TAM, I came to this website looking for ways to strengthen my marriage as my husband and I are_ just_ beginning to experience the beauty and freedom of a some-what empty nest. My heart ached for you and I have thought of you, your son, and ex-wife *frequently* since. I sincerely hope you are all doing well in Oz.

I recall towards the end you struggled with putting your situation out for viewing, however your story has truly helped others dealing with similar, and even not so similar scenarios. Thank you for the brief update, you are cared for and respected here. I envision you happily trolling the waters of Australia on that beautiful boat :smile2:
I hope "changed man" indeed equals happy man.


----------



## syhoybenden

"I am a totally different man now."

Sadder but wiser?


----------



## Tron

Thanks for checking in Hantei. 

I hope that totally different is good. If not that's totally understandable too.

If you have the time or inclination I'd like to hear what your XW wound up doing the past year or so and how your son is making out.


----------



## Palodyne

AkaHantei said:


> I wasn't going to post any more updates. However out of respect of people here, who were helping me, here's one:
> 
> Yes, I'm divorced but what I think matters more than a piece of legal paperwork - I am a totally different man now. Al least that's how I feel.


Hey, brother, thanks for the update. I hope the changes you feel are positive and strengthening. Thank you for the update, and we all wish you happiness moving forward.


----------



## Palodyne

:smile2:


----------



## Marc878

AkaHantei said:


> I wasn't going to post any more updates. However out of respect of people here, who were helping me, here's one:
> 
> Yes, I'm divorced but what I think matters more than a piece of legal paperwork - *I am a totally different man now.* Al least that's how I feel.


How so?

Sorry for what you went through. No matter what it's never easy.

Good luck to your future


----------



## Decorum

Sorry it was so hard on you, but glad you are choosing you own path again.


----------



## AkaHantei

syhoybenden said:


> "I am a totally different man now."
> 
> Sadder but wiser?


I was referring to having a new phone 0

On a serious note, thanks everyone for the wishes. 

I'm not sad, deoressed or God forbid broken however to expect me to be better off bright and joly after loosing my better half of so many years is unrealistic. Lifestyle wise I'm stable but I feel my stance towards relationship and marriage has clearly changed. 

Travelled a lot with my kid in order to help to cope and boat is doing fine.

My XW... it was up and down these months from serious attempts of getting me into R to making me the devil incarnate. I'm not sure she's reached the acceptance stage yet. One or two times I was seriously close to attempting R but realised I can't really do it. I liked an idea suggested by someone to divorce then wait then date back then but realised it just doesn't work with your X. Any step from being just coparents to anything ... more romantic inevitably leads to the acceptance of cheating, which I can't do.


----------



## syhoybenden

AkaHantei said:


> My XW... it was up and down these months from serious attempts of getting me into R to making me the devil incarnate. I'm not sure she's reached the acceptance stage yet. One or two times I was seriously close to attempting R but realised I can't really do it. I liked an idea suggested by someone to divorce then wait then date back then but realised it just doesn't work with your X. Any step from being just coparents to anything ... more romantic inevitably leads to the acceptance of cheating, which I can't do.


I wish I was one of those evangelist guys on the TV.

Then I could put my hand on your forehead, give you a quick push back and yell "HEAL!". Then do the same thing for your wife.


----------



## syhoybenden

Oh yeah, and then I'd damn her mother to eternal hell-fire.


----------



## Marc878

Knowing yourself and accepting your lack of capability in accepting infidelity saved you many months or even a year or two of living in limbo.

I'm sure the decision wasn't easy though.


----------



## Truthseeker1

AkaHantei said:


> I was referring to having a new phone 0
> 
> On a serious note, thanks everyone for the wishes.
> 
> I'm not sad, deoressed or God forbid broken however to expect me to be better off bright and joly after loosing my better half of so many years is unrealistic. Lifestyle wise I'm stable but I feel my stance towards relationship and marriage has clearly changed.
> 
> Travelled a lot with my kid in order to help to cope and boat is doing fine.
> 
> *My XW... it was up and down these months from serious attempts of getting me into R to making me the devil incarnate. I'm not sure she's reached the acceptance stage yet.* One or two times I was seriously close to attempting R but realised I can't really do it. I liked an idea suggested by someone to divorce then wait then date back then but realised it just doesn't work with your X. Any step from being just coparents to anything ... more romantic inevitably leads to the acceptance of cheating, which I can't do.


Glad you are doing well and moving forward. Your XW should have begun to accept the fact that her marriage could be over they moment she slept with another man. I do find WSs rush to be the victims of the mess they have created. I think it stems from the fact that in their view everything is ultimately about them. It is like they all read the same how-to book.


----------



## GusPolinski

AkaHantei said:


> I was referring to having a new phone 0
> 
> On a serious note, thanks everyone for the wishes.
> 
> I'm not sad, deoressed or God forbid broken however to expect me to be better off bright and joly after loosing my better half of so many years is unrealistic. Lifestyle wise I'm stable but I feel my stance towards relationship and marriage has clearly changed.
> 
> Travelled a lot with my kid in order to help to cope and boat is doing fine.
> 
> My XW... it was up and down these months from serious attempts of getting me into R to making me the devil incarnate. I'm not sure she's reached the acceptance stage yet. One or two times I was seriously close to attempting R but realised I can't really do it. I liked an idea suggested by someone to divorce then wait then date back then but realised it just doesn't work with your X. Any step from being just coparents to anything ... more romantic inevitably leads to the acceptance of cheating, which I can't do.


So...

...is she not "standing up to the crowd and living life to the fullest"?

:lol: :rofl:

Sorry man... don't mean to point and laugh.

At least not at you.


----------



## Decorum

AkaHantei said:


> Travelled a lot with my kid in order to help to cope and boat is doing fine.


Those are priceless times, good for you.


----------



## alte Dame

This sounds like the best you could hope for with everything she put you through. Don't be a stranger. It helps people when the old stalwarts come back to report. 

Best of luck, H!


----------



## bandit.45

AkaHantei said:


> My XW... it was up and down these months f*rom serious attempts of getting me into R to making me the devil incarnate*. I'm not sure she's reached the acceptance stage yet. One or two times I was seriously close to attempting R but realised I can't really do it. I liked an idea suggested by someone to divorce then wait then date back then but realised it just doesn't work with your X. Any step from being just coparents to anything ... more romantic inevitably leads to the acceptance of cheating, which I can't do.


Devil incarnate? 

I don't see how that is possible. I thought you treated her fairly. 

Sigh...waywards....


----------



## Tron

bandit.45 said:


> Devil incarnate?
> 
> I don't see how that is possible. I thought you treated her fairly.
> 
> Sigh...waywards....


She was tentative and slow to get on the R train. She was too passive and did not know what to do, what was required or what might work. Bottom line IMO is that she was a WW that was going to need a lot of hand holding through the process, a lot of support and positive feedback. There was a level of immaturity there. And it takes a special kind of BS to accept that, continue to show patience and still be able to lead the WW through the process. 

With that in mind, I am sure when she tried things and found that it really didn't move the needle much, she got discouraged, frustrated and angry.

I don't think that in the long run she was a bad candidate for R, in a sense that she would be inclined to be a repeat offender. I do think she was actually one of the few that quickly realized how badly she F'd up and what she was about to lose.

I won't ever suggest to you how you should feel about it Hantei, but after going through this process I don't believe that she will ever think that she got away with anything. Whether you offer to take her out on a date or not.

JMHO. For what it's worth.


----------



## syhoybenden

Tron said:


> She was tentative and slow to get on the R train. She was too passive and did not know what to do,


Not to mention being pushed by a strong opposing current originating from her FOO.


----------



## skerzoid

Travelled a lot with my kid in order to help to cope and boat is doing fine.

My XW... it was up and down these months from serious attempts of getting me into R to making me the devil incarnate. I'm not sure she's reached the acceptance stage yet. One or two times I was seriously close to attempting R but realised I can't really do it. I liked an idea suggested by someone to divorce then wait then date back then but realised it just doesn't work with your X. Any step from being just coparents to anything ... more romantic inevitably leads to the acceptance of cheating, which I can't do.[/QUOTE]

Hentai, has your X rebuilt her relationship with your son in any way? Has he forgiven her or does he still hold his resentment toward her betrayal? Losing you due to her stupidity has got to be a huge blow but losing you both would take all meaning out of her life. I pity you, I pity your son, and I pity her. This is one of the most depressing stories I have ever read. Such a waste of life. I wish you all a healing with time.


----------



## JohnA

I recalled reading her thread. Her regret was real. Her appreciation of you and her marriage was real. Yet she never quite got to remorse. I realized how poor the actual chance she would win though after she ceased posting after less then several weeks. 

Be well


----------



## AkaHantei

bandit.45 said:


> Devil incarnate?
> 
> I don't see how that is possible. I thought you treated her fairly.
> 
> Sigh...waywards....





JohnA said:


> I recalled reading her thread. Her regret was real. Her appreciation of you and her marriage was real. Yet she never quite got to remorse. I realized how poor the actual chance she would win though after she ceased posting after less then several weeks.
> 
> Be well


I personally do believe that she is remorseful - at least in my book. I also think she is (or was as the intensity is starting to slowly decrease recently, which I understand) doing anything humanly possible to get us into R. At least I run out of imagination if I attempt to find any gaps in her efforts. "Devil incarnate" monents in my mind are understandable as it was happening during specific milestones in our divorce process or some painful rejections fron me, she lost it, then apologized.

At the end of days it comes to my inability to accept the cheating and come up with a scenario of R that wouldn't involve me having to go back to BAU marriage. It's like watching a movie knowing who is the killer. No matter how it plays up, R means one day she moves back in and from that point I'll have to start swallowing this pill.


----------



## Marc878

AkaHantei said:


> I personally do believe that she is remorseful - at least in my book. I also think she is (or was as the intensity is starting to slowly decrease recently, which I understand) doing anything humanly possible to get us into R. At least I run out of imagination if I attempt to find any gaps in her efforts. "Devil incarnate" monents in my mind are understandable as it was happening during specific milestones in our divorce process or some painful rejections fron me, she lost it, then apologized.
> 
> I think you are correct. After the initiator shock of getting caught she turned very quickly but it was only after other man ran. There would always be that nagging doubt of what if he hadn't?
> 
> At the end of days it comes to my inability to accept the cheating and come up with a scenario of R that wouldn't involve me having to go back to BAU marriage. It's like watching a movie knowing who is the killer. No matter how it plays up, R means one day she moves back in and from that point I'll have to start swallowing this pill.


However, This isn't about her it's about what you want and need. Only you should decide that.

Have you started dating?


----------



## bandit.45

She's like a little black bomb, with a 1000 foot fuse. She's fine and quiet for years...then all of a sudden....BOOM! 

Stay divorced.


----------



## TDSC60

Anytime you start feeling sorry for her, jump on your boat with a couple of good cigars and go fishing.


----------



## Be smart

I read her thread on LS and to be honest I dont see her remorseful. She still blames her Mother for her Affair. It is like reading a diary of some 18 Year old girl. "My mommy wants me to date this guy" We are talking about a married woman with Son,Husband,job...

Noone forced her to Cheat and said ugly things about her Husband. Dont forget what she told him when he confronted her.

Good luck to you Hantei


----------



## Graywolf2

*"Devil incarnate"
*
This is understandable. You can make this all go away and you’re not no matter how nice she is to you. You’re the one person in the world that can absolve her of her sins and give her a semblance of the future she envisioned before meeting the OM. If you take her back as if nothing happened how can anyone else not forgive her? After all she did much more to you.

These are big stakes for her and seemingly so simple for you. All you have to do is wave your magic wand and all her troubles go away. No wonder she gets frustrated.


----------



## curious234

Sorry did not read the thread. you are a good man . Wish you the best. Your wife also have a thread Right? In hers she said she contacted OM immediately after D and he freaked out. Reading her thread feel sorry for her.


----------



## AkaHantei

Marc878 said:


> However, This isn't about her it's about what you want and need. Only you should decide that.
> 
> Have you started dating?


I do not believe she'd run away with him nor that she'd ever cheat again if we R. In fact some of the 'controls' she offered as a part of R (perhaps based on suggestions she's got elsewhere ) were really extreme, making the "new relationship "even more awkward. That is not my concern, one time is all it takes.

Yes, I've made a few moves, didn't get what I want. So dating is not a priority now.


----------



## Marc878

It's early for you even at a year. It takes awhile to get over this crap. However, you will be forever changed by it. 

You've gotten through the toughest part but unfortunately there is still more ahead of you.

How's your son adjusting? Good job on traveling with him. Great bonding time.


----------



## AkaHantei

Graywolf2 said:


> *"Devil incarnate"
> *
> This is understandable. You can make this all go away and you’re not no matter how nice she is to you. You’re the one person in the world that can absolve her of her sins and give her a semblance of the future she envisioned before meeting the OM. If you take her back as if nothing happened how can anyone else not forgive her? After all she did much more to you.
> 
> These are big stakes for her and seemingly so simple for you. All you have to do is wave your magic wand and all her troubles go away. No wonder she gets frustrated.


This is a close to my perception as it gets, I'll be quoting this. That's what I call "BAU" or swallowing it.


----------



## sokillme

What about her relationship with her Mother, If I remember it was toxic and that was kind of part of the reason she cheated. 

What is your plan, do you plan on dating? Personally and I may get some flack for this but if you were to date and really start over you may eventually be able to start over with her too one day. 

Either way There is another poster on SI who didn't divorce his wife, most of his posts are about feeling the way that you say you would if you had stayed together. Like she got one over on him in a way, all his posts are basically about learning to live with it. Only you can say but it seems like you are better off as you can still be with someone else who you won't feel that way about. But if you still keep holding on to what might of been then I don't think you are in any better position. Part of the reason to divorce is to move forward not be trapped by the cheating. If you hold on you are still in limbo even if you are no longer married. Not sure if that is what you are doing. 

It's so sad the destruction that was left in your family from her poor choices.


----------



## sokillme

Graywolf2 said:


> *"Devil incarnate"
> *
> This is understandable. You can make this all go away and you’re not no matter how nice she is to you. You’re the one person in the world that can absolve her of her sins and give her a semblance of the future she envisioned before meeting the OM. If you take her back as if nothing happened how can anyone else not forgive her? After all she did much more to you.
> 
> These are big stakes for her and seemingly so simple for you. All you have to do is wave your magic wand and all her troubles go away. No wonder she gets frustrated.


She gets the future she envisioned, and he loses the one he did. Always seems that way for the one betrayed, though honestly it would never end up being the one she wanted anyway, not really.


----------



## JohnA

Sokillme at times you can say the same about @drifting on (who i respect deeply) posts on this site. Who are you referring to on SI? Hantei if you find the time you should read his threads. Also River Rat who lived for decades with his WW who had an unspoken adulterous relationship like your wife who left her in his sixties.


----------



## TDSC60

I have to ask - what is "BAU"?????????


----------



## sokillme

JohnA said:


> Sokillme at times you can say the same about @drifting on (who i respect deeply) posts on this site. Who are you referring to on SI? Hantei if you find the time you should read his threads. Also River Rat who lived for decades with his WW who had an unspoken adulterous relationship like your wife who left her in his sixties.


His name is like waitedtoolong or something. He has been struggling for years to deal with the fact that his wife did this to him. His posts sound like he is stuck in never ending pain. Lots of posters are like that. Trying to make something be that can't be. If you stay you have to accept it, if you can't accept it you shouldn't stay. In my opinion staying together but not accepting what happened is still living in limbo.


----------



## Tron

I think what Hantei means by BAU is "Business As Usual". i.e. Rugsweeping

For a successful reconciliation, this simply won't fly. 

I'm really sorry for the both of you Hantei. It is a sad, sad story and I wish she hadn't done what she did and things turned out differently.

Do you love her any more?


----------



## Decorum

.


----------



## AkaHantei

Look I appreciate the links to people in an R situation and I did check some posts out of curiosity. However the truth is I have moved on, there will be no R or any form of romantic relationship (which I have been offered as some sort of no strings attached model - and rejected, causing a bit of drama ). And that is how I feel, couple of month ago someone (assuming this is going to provoke some reaction from me) informed me she's dating. It honestly did not trigger me at all. 

What I refer to BAU is that I can go through an exhausting "pre qualification" - whatever you call this - process with her, and according to her she's willing, but as soon as she's honest this will end up with her moving in. From that point it will be BAU, it'll be my responsibility to be cordial, to tame my anger, etc. There will be no consequenses from that point. And BTW I never wanted a 3rd world wife who walks 3 steps behind her man, never speaks until spoken to, reports in details any encounter with a male, cuts ties with her family. And all this for a chance after 3, 5, 10 years of changing myself to say "I'm at peace".

Well, I'm a peace now. I guess this answers Tron's question.

Best.


----------



## Don't Panic

Absolutely, you must do what is in your heart as best for you, and your son of course. 

She effectively ended the marital relationship with her choices 18 months ago and now it is your right to maintain the ending of that relationship.


----------



## bandit.45

AkaHantei said:


> Look I appreciate the links to people in an R situation and I did check some posts out of curiosity. However the truth is I have moved on, there will be no R or any form of romantic relationship (which I have been offered as some sort of no strings attached model - and rejected, causing a bit of drama ). And that is how I feel, couple of month ago someone (assuming this is going to provoke some reaction from me) informed me she's dating. It honestly did not trigger me at all.
> 
> What I refer to BAU is that I can go through an exhausting "pre qualification" - whatever you call this - process with her, and according to her she's willing, but as soon as she's honest this will end up with her moving in. From that point it will be BAU, it'll be my responsibility to be cordial, to tame my anger, etc. There will be no consequenses from that point. And BTW I never wanted a 3rd world wife who walks 3 steps behind her man, never speaks until spoken to, reports in details any encounter with a male, cuts ties with her family. And all this for a chance after 3, 5, 10 years of changing myself to say "I'm at peace".
> 
> Well, I'm a peace now. I guess this answers Tron's question.
> 
> Best.


Streuth! :surprise:


----------



## TDSC60

You have not mentioned your son. Is he close to his mother now?


----------



## Tron

AkaHantei said:


> Well, I'm a peace now. I guess this answers Tron's question.
> 
> Best.


That's about all we can hope for. You handled things well H. 

Best of luck to you!


----------



## AkaHantei

TDSC60 said:


> You have not mentioned your son.


Deliberately. He's the only reason I'm probably not as philosophical about this whole "experience" as I'd like to be and thoughts like could've should've I handled this differently still cross my mind from time to time.


----------



## Marc878

AkaHantei said:


> Deliberately. He's the only reason I'm probably not as philosophical about this whole "experience" as I'd like to be and thoughts like could've should've I handled this differently still cross my mind from time to time.


I wouldn't worry. I'd bet you're closer now than maybe before. Circumstances like this can make a tighter bond if you do it right and it sounds like you have.


----------



## TDSC60

AkaHantei said:


> Deliberately. He's the only reason I'm probably not as philosophical about this whole "experience" as I'd like to be and thoughts like could've should've I handled this differently still cross my mind from time to time.


You handled it the only way possible to retain your self respect. I think you also taught your son a valuable lesson even if he does not want to admit it at the moment.


----------



## sokillme

AkaHantei said:


> Look I appreciate the links to people in an R situation and I did check some posts out of curiosity. However the truth is I have moved on, there will be no R or any form of romantic relationship (which I have been offered as some sort of no strings attached model - and rejected, causing a bit of drama ). And that is how I feel, couple of month ago someone (assuming this is going to provoke some reaction from me) informed me she's dating. It honestly did not trigger me at all.
> 
> What I refer to BAU is that I can go through an exhausting "pre qualification" - whatever you call this - process with her, and according to her she's willing, but as soon as she's honest this will end up with her moving in. From that point it will be BAU, it'll be my responsibility to be cordial, to tame my anger, etc. There will be no consequenses from that point. And BTW I never wanted a 3rd world wife who walks 3 steps behind her man, never speaks until spoken to, reports in details any encounter with a male, cuts ties with her family. And all this for a chance after 3, 5, 10 years of changing myself to say "I'm at peace".
> 
> Well, I'm a peace now. I guess this answers Tron's question.
> 
> Best.


You sound pretty healthy to me. Maybe one day you will meet someone else and will have what you potentially could have had with your wife before she destroyed it.


----------



## Marc878

@AkaHantei how's it going for you?

I hope well.

Take care


----------



## AkaHantei

Marc878 said:


> @AkaHantei how's it going for you?
> 
> I hope well.
> 
> Take care


I'm probably 95% fine. E.g. financials, life style, my child - everything is great. Yet at times (which I classify as moments of weakness) I feel something is missing or I am missing something. 
In that moment of weakness I'm writing this post (not sure if it qualifies as update)... after I decided I no longer belong here.


----------



## syhoybenden

You're missing the life you had, or rather thought you had.

So, did the mother of your son finally go do her family of origin's bidding and "go live life to the fullest"?


----------



## TDSC60

AkaHantei said:


> I'm probably 95% fine. E.g. financials, life style, my child - everything is great. Yet at times (which I classify as moments of weakness) I feel something is missing or I am missing something.
> In that moment of weakness I'm writing this post (not sure if it qualifies as update)... after I decided I no longer belong here.


You spent about half of your life with this woman in some shape or form and loved her deeply. You came to the conclusion that a PA was a deal breaker for you. 

It is perfectly normal to look back from time to time and feel nostalgia in regard to "what could have been" if she had not cheated. Even if you do not want to admit it - the good memories are not gone and that makes you feel something is missing sometimes. 

Always remember that she is the one who destroyed your family and changed your future and that of her son. That is all on her.


----------



## farsidejunky

AkaHantei said:


> I'm probably 95% fine. E.g. financials, life style, my child - everything is great. Yet at times (which I classify as moments of weakness) I feel something is missing or I am missing something.
> In that moment of weakness I'm writing this post (not sure if it qualifies as update)... after I decided I no longer belong here.


Welcome back, Hantei.

This likely ties into the same reason that you could not reconcile with her. There are a few possible reasons, but I would guess it has to do with the level of hurt you felt from the betrayal. 

Some people have the ability to simply walk away. Some people have the ability to forgive AND reconcile.

Some people just don't, brother. 

Are you dating?


----------



## skerzoid

AkaHantei:

Its good to hear from you after a long break. I was wondering about you. Have you cut all contact with your ex? Your's was an epic tale, one the most heart breaking on TAM. Everyone lost. 

1. Did your son ever reconcile with his mother? Not only did she lose you, she lost him, and her family was thrown into chaos. For what? A few smooth words from a jackass. 

2. Have you not found another? Would you ever consider "R"? I know you are a strong personality, but people change. Has she been able to move on or is she still destroyed?

3. I know not the right thing to say to you. You have been so adamant in the past. Are you willing to live this way forever rather than forgive her? 

4. I only wish the best for you, whatever path you choose. You are the man I have most respected in my readings on TAM. I will always respect you as you showed strength, courage, and finally decisiveness in your dealing with her betrayal. Good luck.


----------



## stro

As long as there is air in your lungs I would say you belong here.


----------



## Noble1

Went through the whole story over the past couple of days.

Thank you for the update and hope you keep strong.

It's natural that you feel like something is missing as I am sure your marriage was not 100% bad.

Good for you to do what had to be done for you and your son.

Live a great life and I hope you find the 'missing' 5%.

Good luck.


----------



## AkaHantei

stro said:


> As long as there is air in your lungs I would say you belong here.



Sorry mate, I hope you are wrong.


----------



## TDSC60

AkaHantei said:


> Sorry mate, I hope you are wrong.


I think it is hoped that you can stick around and help others who are sadly in your former situation. Not because anyone thinks you need advice or help from here.


----------



## AkaHantei

TDSC60 said:


> I think it is hoped that you can stick around and help others who are sadly in your former situation. Not because anyone thinks you need advice or help from here.


OK, apologies then, I assumed that was "you can check out any time but you can never leave" kind of comment.


----------



## AkaHantei

syhoybenden said:


> ... and "go live life to the fullest"?


Depends on a definition of the above. I personally wouldn't call it that. As far as I know she took steps to seek help and spends most of the time between the work… small circle of friends, and our kid. 

In other words to the best of my knowledge her social life is not very active or prominent. 

If that's an answer to the question asked.


----------



## syhoybenden

Well then, maybe your parting gift to her was her getting her "Come to Jesus" moment.

Hopefully she's learned to distance herself from her FOO and can be honest to herself and whatever future partner she ends up with.

If so, good luck to her.

And you. 

Onwards and upwards.


----------



## hinterdir

WOW! Over 100 pages! I can't read all that, too much, there are probably so many details and additional info that's been stated already in these 100 pages of responses but I'm skipping all that. 

I am so sorry this is happening. I'll be honest, my opinions on a cheater are pretty set in stone. If she has actually had sex with another man than I see nothing else you can do but divorce her. Who even cares if she changes her mind and comes back. Why would you even want her after she's let another man kiss her and caress her and touch her all over and go inside of her and have pleasure and passion with another man? I'd never be able to look at her or touch again. Even if she were the best, most loyal wife from that point on for the rest of my life I'd never even want to have her around me....she'd disgust me forever. There is nothing that could ever take that away.

Divorce her and don't waste another moment on this piece of trash.


----------



## AkaHantei

TDSC60 said:


> It is perfectly normal to look back from time to time and feel nostalgia in regard to "what could have been" if she had not cheated. Even if you do not want to admit it - the good memories are not gone and that makes you feel something is missing sometimes.


That is actually makes a hell lot of sense to me. Kind of justifies allowing myself to post an update here (well, partially. :laugh


----------



## farsidejunky

TDSC60 said:


> You spent about half of your life with this woman in some shape or form and loved her deeply. You came to the conclusion that a PA was a deal breaker for you.
> 
> It is perfectly normal to look back from time to time and feel nostalgia in regard to "what could have been" if she had not cheated. Even if you do not want to admit it - the good memories are not gone and that makes you feel something is missing sometimes.
> 
> Always remember that she is the one who destroyed your family and changed your future and that of her son. That is all on her.


I really like this post.

I think it does a great job of illustrating how loss affects us.

But Hantei, what is stopping you now from finding a life every bit as fulfilling as you once had?

You don't sound...happy...or even content.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Tron

farsidejunky said:


> You don't sound...happy...or even content.


this


----------



## Marc878

Hantei unlike most made a decision early on. Most fall into the trap of indecision and linger in limbo.

He cleared that hurdle but it does take time to get back on track. Everyone is difference and will have different time tables.


----------



## syhoybenden

Marc878 said:


> Hantei unlike most made a decision early on. Most fall into the trap of indecision and linger in limbo.
> 
> He cleared that hudlle butbit dors take time to get back on track. Everyone is difference and will have different time tables.




Were your fingers asleep?


----------



## sokillme

I don't think the default human emotion in life is to be happy or content. If you are there 95% of the time you are doing better then most. 100% and what would be the reason for living, what would you strive for.


----------



## AkaHantei

I am what I am. Mostly "happy" (in quotes as I kind of agree with sokillme ) and definitely contempt. 

I really regret nothing nor do I question my decisions. As I mentioned my quality of life at the moment is on par or in some aspects even above of what I had before. 

It is just from time to time I experience "triggers" - it is impossible to be 100 % no contact when co parenting. 
In one of these moments (it was meant to be one of our special dates early this week… had a bit of a drama caused by that ) I have updated this forum. 
Fortunately the rate of occurence is on steady decline. 

To summarise, the above is just a more detailed version of what I posted previously. 

Look, I could probably write an essay on new activities and hobbies I picked up, how am I spending time with my kid, how did we rebuild our life, where have we been together... but who needs TAM for that?


----------



## TDSC60

farsidejunky said:


> I really like this post.
> 
> I think it does a great job of illustrating how loss affects us.
> 
> But Hantei, what is stopping you now from finding a life every bit as fulfilling as you once had?
> 
> You don't sound...happy...or even content.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


The man's got a kick-ass boat. Of course he is happy and content - most of the time.


----------



## Marc878

AkaHantei said:


> I am what I am. Mostly "happy" (in quotes as I kind of agree with sokillme ) and definitely contempt.
> 
> I really regret nothing nor do I question my decisions. As I mentioned my quality of life at the moment is on par or in some aspects even above of what I had before.
> 
> It is just from time to time I experience "triggers" - it is impossible to be 100 % no contact when co parenting.
> In one of these moments (it was meant to be one of our special dates early this week… had a bit of a drama caused by that ) I have updated this forum.
> Fortunately the rate of occurence is on steady decline.
> 
> To summarise, the above is just a more detailed version of what I posted previously.
> 
> Look, I could probably write an essay on new activities and hobbies I picked up, how am I spending time with my kid, how did we rebuild our life, where have we been together... but who needs TAM for that?


We all have those nostalgic moments but they soon pass and life goes on. Perfectly normal.


----------



## AkaHantei

skerzoid said:


> AkaHantei:
> 
> ... Would you ever consider "R"? I know you are a strong personality, but people change...
> I know not the right thing to say to you. You have been so adamant in the past. Are you willing to live this way forever rather than forgive her?
> .


This question requires an answer I believe. At least I am feeling as it is a right move to spill my thoughts out. 

Back then I wanted nothing more than (perhaps not to reconcile in the way this is used on TAM) but to restore my marriage to an OK - if not to the original - state. In other words to have my family of 3 back and whole. 

I for the sake of me could not imagine yet alone implement any workable solution. I just did not see it possible short of inventing the time machine. I just cannot imagine it is being possible. 

Not trusting myself (I'm not an expert after all) I started to hunt high and low for an advice. Including TAM of course. 
My search was not sucessful. Nor was my X in her attempts to change my mind. 

Now I'm even more sure than ever that was (divorce with no reconciliation) right decision. 

So while my ears are always open, I doubt there's a compelling argument or model that would change my stance. 

If someone proves me wrong, I'll be 1st to admit it. 

NB. Calling me heartless cold blooded unforgiving bastard won't be effective. Been there done that. :wink2:


----------



## Kamstel

What is wrong with divorcing a cheating spouse and never reconciling? Absolutely nothing!!!

There are some things that can never be forgiven or forgotten. I believe cheating is one of those things.

Even if the ex wife was very remorseful, cut all relationships with those that knew or encouraged the cheating, including telling his ex-MIL & ex FILthat she will never see or talk TO EITHER of them ever again for their role in this, it still does not take away the fact that she knowingly and willingly spread herself to another man! The fact that it was a new more advanced and evolved form of relationship just makes her out to be sad, pathetic, and used.

But in the end, many simply can not get over the unforgivable crime of sleeping with someone else. And no matter if both truly love each other, they can never be together ever again.

H, I know you still hurt, but you must do what is best for you. And to me that sounds like not reconciling with your cheating wife, spending as much time with your some as possible, enjoying the boat and other hobbies, and yes, meeting and going out with other women. I’m not suggesting starting a relationship, I’m just talking about going out with someone new, get to know more about them, have fun, and if you decide to meet them again a few days later then fantastic!!!!


And FYI, I for one would love to hear more about the new hobbies and activities you have been up to. Might give me some ideas.


Congratulations on surviving Hell!!! You have walked out of the gates, now you just accept the fact that Hell is behind you, and you can and should enjoy all of the new and exciting things all around you!


You may not believe this, but your thread is an inspiration to all that are still in this Hell that their trusted and beloved wife have thrown them into. And for that, thank you


----------



## Kamstel

I applaud you for refusing to lower your standards and expectations!!!!


----------



## Chaparral

AkaHantei said:


> I am what I am. Mostly "happy" (in quotes as I kind of agree with sokillme ) and definitely contempt.
> 
> I really regret nothing nor do I question my decisions. As I mentioned my quality of life at the moment is on par or in some aspects even above of what I had before.
> 
> It is just from time to time I experience "triggers" - it is impossible to be 100 % no contact when co parenting.
> In one of these moments (it was meant to be one of our special dates early this week… had a bit of a drama caused by that ) I have updated this forum.
> Fortunately the rate of occurence is on steady decline.
> 
> To summarise, the above is just a more detailed version of what I posted previously.
> 
> Look, I could probably write an essay on new activities and hobbies I picked up, how am I spending time with my kid, how did we rebuild our life, where have we been together... but who needs TAM for that?


Because it gives others hope that their life isn’t over when the one they loved the most puts a Crocidile Dundee hunting knife in their back.


----------



## Kamstel

Sorry, fat thumb keeps hitting submit arrow by mistake.

And I would be remiss to not mention her request to H to become some type of friends with benefits. Was it a way of trying to manipulate her way into convincing H to reconcile? Maybe. Only she knows that answer.

But to me, even that offer/request is disturbing as she sees sex as being casual, emotionless, and just a physical release. Now I have no problem with casual sex, but not with someone you have a romantic history, as it can never be just casual and without emotions and feelings!

Maybe her offer was just her own new, advanced, and evolved form of relationship!

I find it hard to believe that she would even suggest such a thing!! 

Maybe I’m wrong, bu is there a double standard here? Can you imagine what the reaction would be if it was a cheating husband offering such a relationship to a faithful wife?


Good luck H. You are doing fantastic! Continue in your journey, getting further and further away from the gates of Hell!!

And you know that cute woman down the hall at work or the one that you noticed looking at you at the gym??? Ask her out for coffee, just to get to know her better. Both you and she deserve the opportunity!


----------



## AkaHantei

Chaparral said:


> Because it gives others hope that their life isn’t over when the one they loved the most puts a Crocidile Dundee hunting knife in their back.


Well, in that case, for whatever it worth, I can with confidence say that the life is not over. Far from it. The tough tines have expiry date. 

That's why I like the term "nostalgia" offered by some smart person here. 
I was nostalgic leaving my 1st owned home some years ago, but after all was moving into a better one. 

I personally (and do not intend to generalize it) I do not see much sense in feeling broken or hurt for more than a day per year.


----------



## TDSC60

Hey Hantei,

How are you doing? How is your son?


----------



## thummper

I would like to read his ex's thread from SI. Does anyone have a link to it?


----------



## Decorum

AkaHantei said:


> This question requires an answer I believe. At least I am feeling as it is a right move to spill my thoughts out.
> 
> Back then I wanted nothing more than (perhaps not to reconcile in the way this is used on TAM) but to restore my marriage to an OK - if not to the original - state. In other words to have my family of 3 back and whole.
> 
> I for the sake of me could not imagine yet alone implement any workable solution. I just did not see it possible short of inventing the time machine. I just cannot imagine it is being possible.
> 
> Not trusting myself (I'm not an expert after all) I started to hunt high and low for an advice. Including TAM of course.
> My search was not sucessful. Nor was my X in her attempts to change my mind.
> 
> Now I'm even more sure than ever that was (divorce with no reconciliation) right decision.
> 
> So while my ears are always open, I doubt there's a compelling argument or model that would change my stance.
> 
> If someone proves me wrong, I'll be 1st to admit it.


Hantei, in my younger years I fought in tournaments, there were many sprains, and bruses.

I always bounced back really well. 

I pulled a back muscle some months ago, and while the acute pain has relented, I still get stiff and sore.

The Doctor explained that the scar tissue in the muscle fiber causes the stiffness and soreness, and more so as we age. 

I turned 60 this year, but I'm not quite ready to do the honarable thing yet, ha ha ha.

Your emotional scar tissue may always turn up "occasionally" stiff and sore.

As far as a rationale 
for reconciliation, it comes from within, not a rational argument.

It is often felt before it is described. 

In the cases I know of that were worthwhile, and not just desperation, there was simply a balance, a relative equivalence between the upsides and the downsides.

This even including things like, "it will feel like she got away with it", or "I will never know if I got the full story", etc.

Things that seem impossible to live with.

Its a value judgment not a logical equation, so both sides dont have to balance.

You can tell it is so when they say something like, "every relationship is a risk, a painful lesson has been learned, and we really do get along very well together.."

It is simply worth it to them.

It can take some time to realize it, even years.


All things being equal, it is either present in your heart or it is not. 

No right/wrong, good/bad, strong/weak.

I really wish you well!

Take care.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

TDSC60 said:


> The man's got a kick-ass boat. Of course he is happy and content - most of the time.


But when do we get to hear that there are girls in bikini's on this boat? Now that will be just perfect...

I am so happy that you are finding your way and acknowledged your soul! Yeah, the ex will always be a point of contention, but just as you continue living your life YOUR way, you will find that you are definitely winning.


----------



## TDSC60

Hantei may be gone for good. I wish all good things for him and his son.

But I still want to know if he has had any bikini clad ladies on his boat recently.


----------



## AkaHantei

We are in the last month of winter here and it is really cold right now. 
Bikini ladies have to wait for a month or two, I don't want them frozen.


----------



## TDSC60

AkaHantei said:


> We are in the last month of winter here and it is really cold right now.
> Bikini ladies have to wait for a month or two, I don't want them frozen.


I realized that it was winter in Aussie land just after I hit the post button.

How are you and your son doing?


----------



## AkaHantei

Doing fine, thank you. You guys post a lot of relevant pieces of information, I could've pick up a relevant part form almost each and any post. If I wanted to comment on each would take me hours. 

The kid is doing great. Although at times I cannot stop myself from thinking "if he would be any different today if this whole thing has not happened? Happier? Just different?". Will never know. I feel like 2 or 3 times he was sent fishing for info or opportunity by the "other camp"? So I had a discussion with him, which he took well. He's positioning himself now as he'd like us to get together but realises this is not going to happen. 

This reminds me I have a question to ask. When should I expect attempts from my X to get together to stop? I'd expect them to fade out soon I assume? 

Hope before my my kid enters legal age?


----------



## Kamstel

Her attempts stop when you start seeing somebody.

Good luck, and by the way, there’s nothing wrong with seeing a woman in a bikini that is on the cold side


----------



## Marc878

AkaHantei said:


> Doing fine, thank you. You guys post a lot of relevant pieces of information, I could've pick up a relevant part form almost each and any post. If I wanted to comment on each would take me hours.
> 
> The kid is doing great. Although at times I cannot stop myself from thinking "if he would be any different today if this whole thing has not happened? Happier? Just different?". Will never know. I feel like 2 or 3 times he was sent fishing for info or opportunity by the "other camp"? So I had a discussion with him, which he took well. He's positioning himself now as he'd like us to get together but realises this is not going to happen.
> 
> This reminds me I have a question to ask. When should I expect attempts from my X to get together to stop? I'd expect them to fade out soon I assume?
> 
> Hope before my my kid enters legal age?


She is probably projecting her feelings onto you. (I love him so he has to love me too).

Cut off all unnecessary contact. Go to text or emai, son only. He's old enough so you should be able to do this easily. Zero engagement. If you still talk with her it'll just prolong the connection.

Time will do the rest.

Take care


----------



## turnera

Typically, I've seen them stop fishing after 2 or 3 years.


----------



## sunsetmist

She may never give up. You're too good a catch. And there may long be an invisible bond because of what you HAD together. 

If she can get you back, then her FOOLishness would be less relevant. And she would be proving to herself that she really could control you.


----------



## GusPolinski

AkaHantei said:


> Doing fine, thank you. You guys post a lot of relevant pieces of information, I could've pick up a relevant part form almost each and any post. If I wanted to comment on each would take me hours.
> 
> The kid is doing great. Although at times I cannot stop myself from thinking "if he would be any different today if this whole thing has not happened? Happier? Just different?". Will never know. I feel like 2 or 3 times he was sent fishing for info or opportunity by the "other camp"? So I had a discussion with him, which he took well. He's positioning himself now as he'd like us to get together but realises this is not going to happen.
> 
> This reminds me I have a question to ask. When should I expect attempts from my X to get together to stop? I'd expect them to fade out soon I assume?
> 
> Hope before my my kid enters legal age?


Just tell her that you’re not “enigmatic” or “artistic” enough, and that you don’t “enlighten” the people around you.


----------



## syhoybenden

GusPolinski said:


> Just tell her that you’re not “enigmatic” or “artistic” enough, and that you don’t “enlighten” the people around you.



:iagree:

OUCH. But bang on.

If she doesn't see this as a "cease and desist" then nothing will.


----------



## GusPolinski

syhoybenden said:


> :iagree:
> 
> OUCH. But bang on.
> 
> If she doesn't see this as a "cease and desist" then nothing will.


Hell, that’d be my new FB byline/description...

“Neither enigmatic nor artistic. Enlightener of no one.

But apparently good enough for a solid ‘Plan B’.”


----------



## Andy1001

GusPolinski said:


> Hell, that’d be my new FB byline/description...
> 
> “Neither enigmatic nor artistic. Enlightener of no one.
> 
> But apparently good enough for a solid ‘Plan B’.”


I think Hallmark have a card for such an occasion.


----------



## AkaHantei

OK, so the range seems to be anywhere between "as soon as you start seeing someone, 2-3 years and never". 

Think 2-3 years is what I should assume (perhaps I need to give "start seeing someone" a go  ) 

Marc, I'm keeping the minimum contact, zero is not an option because of the kid.


----------



## AkaHantei

syhoybenden said:


> :iagree:
> 
> OUCH. But bang on.
> 
> If she doesn't see this as a "cease and desist" then nothing will.


Gus, I have used this line before, when it mattered. 

Apparently she gets it, as well as a fact of sleeping with someone was not the right move (being slightly sarcastic). 

It is just not being seen as an offence, that cannot be forgiven eventually, after all the steps I took (divorce, hostility, etc). 

In other words, as it was presented to me "if she takes my vintage car or boat for a ride, totals it, ruins the finances, I have every right to be cranky but will a eventually forgive". 

Famous Ozzie "she'll be right " I guess


----------



## Marc878

Only if you're ready.


----------



## Marc878

I think most waywards have the entitled mindset that they should always get a second chance.

Even after they destroy the marriage and wreck the family.

IMO it's just another act of selfishness. It's all about me.

The wanting "friendship" afterwards wreaks of the same thing


----------



## Marc878

What you're up against is most people (friends and family) want to see a fairy tale ending.

The thing is they aren't the ones who have to eat that **** sandwich to get there. Not to mention live with it.

Hopeless romantics for the most part.

You'll be fine. You probably aren't ready for another relationship yet but if that's what you seek you're in many respects better prepared for it now that your wiser/experienced, etc.

And like most you'll find there are a lot of women looking for a good solid man (rare so know your value).


----------



## GusPolinski

AkaHantei said:


> Gus, I have used this line before, when it mattered.
> 
> Apparently she gets it, as well as a fact of sleeping with someone was not the right move (being slightly sarcastic).
> 
> It is just not being seen as an offence, that cannot be forgiven eventually, after all the steps I took (divorce, hostility, etc).
> 
> In other words, as it was presented to me "if she takes my vintage car or boat for a ride, totals it, ruins the finances, I have every right to be cranky but will a eventually forgive".
> 
> Famous Ozzie "she'll be right " I guess


Forgiveness is one thing, but taking her back — which essentially means giving her the opportunity to do any or all of it all over again — is quite another.


----------



## TDSC60

AkaHantei said:


> OK, so the range seems to be anywhere between "as soon as you start seeing someone, 2-3 years and never".
> 
> Think 2-3 years is what I should assume (perhaps I need to give "start seeing someone" a go  )
> 
> Marc, I'm keeping the minimum contact, zero is not an option because of the kid.


A FB post of pictures involving bikini clad ladies on the boat should do it.

But I like Gus's idea as well.


----------



## TDSC60

AkaHantei said:


> Gus, I have used this line before, when it mattered.
> 
> Apparently she gets it, as well as a fact of sleeping with someone was not the right move (being slightly sarcastic).
> 
> It is just not being seen as an offence, that cannot be forgiven eventually, after all the steps I took (divorce, hostility, etc).
> 
> *In other words, as it was presented to me "if she takes my vintage car or boat for a ride, totals it, ruins the finances, I have every right to be cranky but will a eventually forgive".*
> 
> Famous Ozzie "she'll be right " I guess


Even if you forgive the destruction of the car or boat, that does not mean you can trust her behind the wheel of the new ones.

Once the trust is gone or destroyed, it almost never returns 100%.


----------



## AkaHantei

TDSC60 said:


> A FB post of pictures involving bikini clad ladies on the boat should do it.
> 
> But I like Gus's idea as well.


The truth is I'm way past and/or don't need anything like that anymore. Life did it for me, so no point in beating the dead horse. 

She doesn't seem to be able to restore her life back to normal and she's far from being happy or contempt as far as I can tell. 

I know this is such a, cliché but nothing but "what a waste, was it worth it? " comes to my mind.


----------



## AkaHantei

TDSC60 said:


> Even if you forgive the destruction of the car or boat, that does not mean you can trust her behind the wheel of the new ones.
> 
> Once the trust is gone or destroyed, it almost never returns 100%.


Not exactly what I meant to say, but so be it. Kind of hard to explain.


----------



## syhoybenden

AkaHantei said:


> I know this is such a, cliché but nothing but "what a waste, was it worth it? " comes to my mind.


Like the song says "You don't know what you've got till it's gone."

By the way, I hope her mother's oh so proud of the fine job she did in screwing her daughter's life up.


----------



## AkaHantei

syhoybenden said:


> Like the song says "You don't know what you've got till it's gone."
> 
> By the way, I hope her mother's oh so proud of the fine job she did in screwing her daughter's life up.


Her mother is that kind of person who cannot be wrong by definition. So of course she denies any wrongdoing while yours truly is: 
- was not the best choice in the first place. 
- made her precious girl to "seek something outside of the marriage". 
- cold blooded stone age personality who decided to take an easy way out instead of fighting for the marriage and hence made so many people unhappy. 
- took the whole issue way to far and just vengeful and unforgiving (see the car analogy above). 


Its kind of funny writing this things being an adult and not an 18yo boy I once was.


----------



## syhoybenden

Well if it's any consolation apple-not-falling-far-from-the-tree-wise, she'll likely end up turning out to be a carbon copy of her mum.


----------



## Marc878

AkaHantei said:


> Her mother is that kind of person who cannot be wrong by definition. So of course she denies any wrongdoing while yours truly is:
> - was not the best choice in the first place.
> 
> Ok, I fixed that for you
> 
> - made her precious girl to "seek something outside of the marriage".
> 
> Well in reality her precious made that choice but where did he go. Dissapeared like a fart in the wind. Not much character it seems. Mom didn't pick to well did she?
> 
> - cold blooded stone age personality who decided to take an easy way out instead of fighting for the marriage and hence made so many people unhappy.
> 
> Hey, you just took yourself out of the equation like they wanted. So.....
> 
> - took the whole issue way to far and just vengeful and unforgiving (see the car analogy above).
> 
> Lots of entitlement. Nothing written anywhere that you get a second chance is there.
> 
> Its kind of funny writing this things being an adult and not an 18yo boy I once was.


Grass was greener until it wasnt. Now they have sour grapes to eat.

You have to wonder if OM hadn't disappeared like a fart in the wind if she'd have pursued this course.

Fight for what marriage? It ended when she banged other man. Upfront there was zero remourse just excuses. 

You'll be fine. Nostalgic moments don't last long. Life goes on.


----------



## skerzoid

AkaHantei said:


> Her mother is that kind of person who cannot be wrong by definition. So of course she denies any wrongdoing while yours truly is:
> - was not the best choice in the first place.
> - made her precious girl to "seek something outside of the marriage".
> - cold blooded stone age personality who decided to take an easy way out instead of fighting for the marriage and hence made so many people unhappy.
> - took the whole issue way to far and just vengeful and unforgiving (see the car analogy above).
> 
> 
> Its kind of funny writing this things being an adult and not an 18yo boy I once was.


In your opinion, why can't she move on? You have made it obvious that you have. Is she truly unbalanced by this? You have described her as attractive, so why? Yes it was a waste, as I have said before. I think there are feelings by both, but she created such a gulf by her stupidity. She loses you, her son, and her family.


----------



## AkaHantei

Marc878 said:


> .
> 
> You have to wonder if OM hadn't disappeared like a fart in the wind if she'd have pursued this course.
> 
> .


She's never admitted this to me (according to her she never thought about any future with him )… although who knows. 

In reality she might have stayed with him for a while, just to introduce an appearance of sense in that whole clusterf... but that is my guess, perhaps I'm projecting. 

After all, she got used to a certain standard of life, so staying with the person who 15 years ago forced his parents to take a loan to pay for his failed business, which he as far as I was told never repayed... must be a true love.


----------



## AkaHantei

skerzoid said:


> In your opinion, why can't she move on? You have made it obvious that you have. Is she truly unbalanced by this? You have described her as attractive, so why? Yes it was a waste, as I have said before. I think there are feelings by both, but she created such a gulf by her stupidity. She loses you, her son, and her family.


She is very attractive. I beleive the root cause is that (was that a right strategy is a different issue) we build our lives around our family assuming it is something irrevocable. Emotionally, socially and financially. For example her job was always something she enjoyed and allowing her to spend time with me and the kid, rather than source of independent income. 

So I guess to move on she needs to write all of this off and start from scratch in all directions. Which is hard when you are not 20.

She in turn believes that - because of the above - I should stop "punishing her" and "will come to my senses ". She has plenty of support there. 

Makes sense?


----------



## syhoybenden

Gaaaah.

Just ... gaaaah.

You know, a couple of years ago i had hopes that you guys would be redeemable. That you could get past the FOO meddling (Hi Mommy) and find a way to heal.

But now though, not so much.

I get it. And frankly, I'd feel the same way.

You deserve better.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

AkaHantei said:


> She is very attractive. I beleive the root cause is that (was that a right strategy is a different issue) we build our lives around our family assuming it is something irrevocable. Emotionally, socially and financially. For example her job was always something she enjoyed and allowing her to spend time with me and the kid, rather than source of independent income.
> 
> So I guess to move on she needs to write all of this off and start from scratch in all directions. Which is hard when you are not 20.
> 
> She in turn believes that - because of the above - I should stop "punishing her" and "will come to my senses ". She has plenty of support there.
> 
> Makes sense?


You sir went through hell, what you went through was the ultimate disrespect with her mother encouraging if I remember correctly. To quote my marine pal “Fiji”...**** her and feed her fish heads”>


----------



## Tatsuhiko

AkaHantei said:


> She is very attractive.


Find the 30-year-old who looks just like your wife did at 30 and has a maturity level that is age-appropriate (unlike your ex). You're certainly not punishing your ex by giving her a chance to find that soulmate mysterious artiste she's always been looking for.


----------



## sokillme

AkaHantei said:


> Gus, I have used this line before, when it mattered.
> 
> Apparently she gets it, as well as a fact of sleeping with someone was not the right move (being slightly sarcastic).
> 
> It is just not being seen as an offence, that cannot be forgiven eventually, after all the steps I took (divorce, hostility, etc).
> 
> In other words, as it was presented to me "if she takes my vintage car or boat for a ride, totals it, ruins the finances, I have every right to be cranky but will a eventually forgive".
> 
> Famous Ozzie "she'll be right " I guess


My response would be, if you totaled my car I would forgive but the car would be gone forever.

I forgive you but I will never love you again.


----------



## sokillme

AkaHantei said:


> The truth is I'm way past and/or don't need anything like that anymore. Life did it for me, so no point in beating the dead horse.
> 
> She doesn't seem to be able to restore her life back to normal and she's far from being happy or contempt as far as I can tell.
> 
> I know this is such a, cliché but nothing but "what a waste, was it worth it? " comes to my mind.


This is the thing with most people like her, people who cheat on their spouses because the relationship doesn't make them happy. It was never going to make her happy anyway. The problem wasn't that the relationship wasn't good enough to make her happy, or you weren't, it was always her. The new relationship wasn't going to make her happy. 

It's why she cheated in the first place, she was starting to flail around, and cheating was one of the things she did to try to solve her unhappiness. It's also why you shouldn't get back together. Even if you did the unhappiness would still be there, sure there may be a temporary feeling of happiness for her but the underlying problem would still be there. The problem is her, it's always been her. 

Not your problem anymore, and you would be foolish to make it so.


----------



## Marc878

The turd of infidelity always leaves a stench even though it may dry up and dissipate a bit. It just lingers.

Couple that with the attitude of her family (you just weren't good enough) would make it difficult to swallow.

Make no mistake. Reconcilliation does mean you have to eat the **** sandwich you were served.

I suspect it feels good to get out of the whole dilemma and move on completely.

The word Freedom comes to mind.


----------



## sunsetmist

AkaHantei said:


> She in turn believes that - because of the above - I should stop "punishing her" and "will come to my senses ". She has plenty of support there.


I get downright cringy and protective when I read of the pressure you are under--maybe even your son is being used. Of course, it is normal for a kid, even a teen, to wish for what used to be. 

She is still unaware/not accepting blame for how she has hurt you (remorseless) and destroyed your trust and the marital bond. As I said before, she thinks YOU are wrong and are being unreasonable. That she has support magnifies the situation. Do not any of these people understand who you are and what you stand for? How can she be so blind?


----------



## AkaHantei

Marc878 said:


> I suspect it feels good to get out of the whole dilemma and move on completely.
> 
> The word Freedom comes to mind.


Correct. I don't know who's right or wrong, and if an isolated act of infidelity warrants permanent break up of previously happy and solid family. 

Im just not a part of the deliberation anymore, I'm out.


----------



## AkaHantei

Should get back? 




sokillme said:


> This is the thing with most people like her, people who cheat on their spouses because the relationship doesn't make them happy. It was never going to make her happy anyway. The problem wasn't that the relationship wasn't good enough to make her happy, or you weren't, it was always her. The new relationship wasn't going to make her happy.
> 
> It's why she cheated in the first place, she was starting to flail around, and cheating was one of the things she did to try to solve her unhappiness. It's also why you should get back together. Even if you did the unhappiness would still be there, sure there may be a temporary feeling of happiness for her but the underlying problem would still be there. The problem is her, it's always been her.
> 
> Not your problem anymore, and you would be foolish to make it so.


----------



## farsidejunky

I think he meant "shouldn't".


AkaHantei said:


> Should get back?


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

AkaHantei said:


> Should get back?


Dammit!

Shouldn't. 

If you follow any of my posts you see I seem to do this a lot. My mind types one thing but I see another.

Fixed it.


----------



## AkaHantei

sunsetmist said:


> I get downright cringy and protective when I read of the pressure you are under--maybe even your son is being used. Of course, it is normal for a kid, even a teen, to wish for what used to be.
> 
> She is still unaware/not accepting blame for how she has hurt you (remorseless) and destroyed your trust and the marital bond. As I said before, she thinks YOU are wrong and are being unreasonable. That she has support magnifies the situation. Do not any of these people understand who you are and what you stand for? How can she be so blind?


I think / she's told she is aware, so she's wrong but I'm unreasonable, think its a great summary. 

Good observation about my kid.


----------



## AkaHantei

sokillme said:


> Dammit!
> 
> Shouldn't.
> 
> If you follow any of my posts you see I seem to do this a lot. My mind types one thing but I see another.
> 
> Fixed it.


Freudian slip? :nerd:

No probs, I get it. I'm getting so many "you should"s so anyone who is "should not" deserves a place in my own hall of fame :grin2:


----------



## Decorum

sokillme said:


> This is the thing with most people like her, people who cheat on their spouses because the relationship doesn't make them happy. It was never going to make her happy anyway. The problem wasn't that the relationship wasn't good enough to make her happy, or you weren't, it was always her. The new relationship wasn't going to make her happy.
> 
> It's why she cheated in the first place, she was starting to flail around, and cheating was one of the things she did to try to solve her unhappiness. It's also why you shouldn't get back together. Even if you did the unhappiness would still be there, sure there may be a temporary feeling of happiness for her but the underlying problem would still be there. The problem is her, it's always been her.
> 
> Not your problem anymore, and you would be foolish to make it so.


This says it all.

"Even if you did the unhappiness would still be there,..."


----------



## Marc878

sunsetmist said:


> I get downright cringy and protective when I read of the pressure you are under--maybe even your son is being used. Of course, it is normal for a kid, even a teen, to wish for what used to be.
> 
> *She is still unaware/not accepting blame for how she has hurt you (remorseless) and destroyed your trust and the marital bond. As I said before, she thinks YOU are wrong and are being unreasonable. That she has support magnifies the situation. Do not any of these people understand who you are and what you stand for? How can she be so blind?*


It's typical wayward mentality. Me, me and me. 

I deserved to have an affair and I deserve a second chance.

Perhaps she is more like her mother than you thought. Or I suspect you've already picked up on that.

Time and distance is your only path.


----------



## scaredlion

If I were in your shoes and still had strong feelings for her I would take her back as a live-in girlfriend. I'd tell her that I didn't trust her and girlfriend is presently as far as I was willing to go to protect myself. I would also put in a condition that as long as she lived with me, I never had to see, talk to, hear about, visit, any reference to, call, text, or have any kind of contact or information concerning her mother. Everyone says don't give her a chance to hurt you again. Don't have anything to do with her...etc,etc. My concept is if you want to be with her then be with her. Just protect yourself on all sides. I guess I was born with too much confidence because I have never let caution or fear keep me from something I really wanted. I have tons of self respect because what I think of myself is more important than what others think of me and I have never not been respected by my peers. So, do what you want to do and screw what others (including me) say they would do. It's your life. Live it the way it makes you happy. Just protect yourself in the process. I do wish you well.


----------



## TDSC60

AkaHantei said:


> Correct. I don't know who's right or wrong, and if *an isolated act of infidelity warrants permanent break up of previously happy and solid family. *
> 
> Im just not a part of the deliberation anymore, I'm out.


H, obviously your wife did not consider the family to be happy or solid. At least not from her side. If she was happy and solid in the marriage there would have been no infidelity.

If I remember correctly, she said she felt choked in the marriage for the last few years before the affair with the gloriously enlightened and artistic OM.


----------



## Nucking Futs

scaredlion said:


> If I were in your shoes and still had strong feelings for her I would *take her back as a live-in girlfriend*. I'd tell her that I didn't trust her and girlfriend is presently as far as I was willing to go to protect myself. I would also put in a condition that as long as she lived with me, I never had to see, talk to, hear about, visit, any reference to, call, text, or have any kind of contact or information concerning her mother. Everyone says don't give her a chance to hurt you again. Don't have anything to do with her...etc,etc. My concept is if you want to be with her then be with her. Just protect yourself on all sides. I guess I was born with too much confidence because I have never let caution or fear keep me from something I really wanted. I have tons of self respect because what I think of myself is more important than what others think of me and I have never not been respected by my peers. So, do what you want to do and screw what others (including me) say they would do. It's your life. Live it the way it makes you happy. Just protect yourself in the process. I do wish you well.


Not a good idea down under, they have a thing called de-facto marriage.


----------



## Graywolf2

AkaHantei said:


> So I guess to move on she needs to write all of this off and start from scratch in all directions. Which is hard when you are not 20.
> 
> She in turn believes that - because of the above - I should stop "punishing her" and "will come to my senses ". She has plenty of support there.


There are other reasons besides wanting you and her old life back. You’re the main judge and jury about what she did. If you take her back then that confirms that what she did wasn’t so bad after all. 

Plus you don’t feel as bad about doing something extremely stupid if there are no lasting repercussions. It’s like you threw away a winning lottery ticket but eventually got the money anyway. Much easier to forgive yourself for being so stupid if you have the money.

At the start of all this your ex rewrote the history of the marriage. You and the marriage weren’t that good. Her subsequent actions have shown this to be quite false.

At one point your ex was quite open to beginning a new life with the wonderful OM until he dumped her.

Has she rewritten that history?


----------



## Marc878

Graywolf2 said:


> There are other reasons besides wanting you and her old life back. You’re the main judge and jury about what she did. If you take her back then that confirms that what she did wasn’t so bad after all.
> 
> Plus you don’t feel as bad about doing something extremely stupid if there are no lasting repercussions. It’s like you threw away a winning lottery ticket but eventually got the money anyway. Much easier to forgive yourself for being so stupid if you have the money.
> 
> *At the start of all this your ex rewrote the history of the marriage. You and the marriage weren’t that good. Her subsequent actions have shown this to be quite false.
> 
> At one point your ex was quite open to beginning a new life with the wonderful OM until he dumped her.
> Has she rewritten that history?*


Pretty good insight. She does a rewrite to suit her needs at the time.


----------



## Graywolf2

akahantei said:


> she's never admitted this to me (according to her she never thought about any future with him )… *although who knows*.


*"although who knows"???? :slap: WAIT A MINUTE. WHAT ABOUT THE FOLLOWING?

*


hantei said:


> *@graywolf* - thank you that is the explanation that does explain my reality in a rational way. It is also ego stroking i admit. At the same time there is no hint on any r from her side so no matter how i hate it i'm moving forward and on.
> 
> Edit: Just missed this initially:* It wasn’t a dirty affair because she loved the om.*
> 
> Is there a double-like button? *this is word for word what she was writing to the sob. That she "regrets hurting [hantei and son] and rushing into the new relationship but at the end of days it's the right thing to do because we (stbxw and sob) share a true love and deep emotional bonds.
> 
> It will work out for all of us."*




"It will work out for all of *us.*" Us includes the love of her life OM.



hantei said:


> still playing it like it is me who is pushing for the separation (like her sleeping with the sob and professing a *"deepest connection with the man on all levels she ever felt in her life" -* yes i got hold of one of the messages - leaves me with any other choice) and she is the victim. Yes she does not want to lift a finger to fight for the marriage and "know she's burned her bridges and have no other choice but to move on".





hantei said:


> she was definitely all pumped up for me begging her and *"i'm sorry for your pain but that's life, i can't command my heart, you won't be so cruel to confine me to the previous life no matter how good was that for us, you are a good man and you will be happy, let's move on and look after [son]" drama. Quote. *So that disengagement is a small deviation from her view of how all of this should be developing.





hantei said:


> anyway. I have left a message with sob sarcastically congratulating him on ruining the marriage and asking him to meet in person. He hasn’t responded yet, but he has surely told her as *she got totally insane and jumped to his defence.* Quickly changed the tune to “i worry about you getting into trouble” but her initial reaction told me all i needed to know.





Hantei said:


> After all when I confronted her, her *“I need someone else” *message came with the whole list of what she was unhappy in marriage with – and it was a complete shocker.


*AND THEN THERE IS THIS:

*


Hantei said:


> She then turned to SOB who apparently went underground. When she (STBXW) basically confronted him he gave her some bull$$%it story … so according to STBXW he just told her he represents a more advanced phase where this sort of relationship with married woman is a norm and *he never intended for her to end her marriage over that*.


If it was settled in her mind that there was no future with the OM why did he feel the need to tell her there was no future with him and go "underground?" If she just wanted a casual relationship with the OM wouldn’t he be willing to stick around as a [email protected] buddy? In the voice mail it sounded like he had a good time.

When the OM found out she was a free woman he ran for the hills. Why? My guess is that he knew she wanted more than he was willing to give her. Free sex is one thing but putting up with her crap and her kid was quite another.

The juice was no longer worth the squeeze so he ran before becoming more entangled.

Now your wife never wanted a future with the OM? :scratchhead: Ask your ex why the OM ran from no strings attached sex if there were truly no strings. The OM might be a complete SOB but he was smart enough to know what your ex wanted.



Hantei said:


> according to STBXW he just told her he represents a more advanced phase where this sort of *relationship with married woman is a norm.*


OM doesn't want a "future" with anyone. That's why he has affairs with married woman as his "norm."

_*Sour Grapes
*
In an old fable by Aesop, a hungry fox noticed a bunch of juicy grapes hanging from a vine. After several failed attempts to reach the grapes, the fox gave up and insisted that he didn't want them anyway because they were probably sour. 

Nowadays when somebody expresses sour grapes, it means that they put down something simply because they can't have it._


----------



## sunsetmist

@Graywolf2
Like this X 1000

Appreciate all the hard work.


----------



## Marc878

Not a pretty picture when you look at it all put together. 

You were right to D and not look back.

She made that bed. Let her lay in it.

It's not worth the years you have ahead to live with this BS in it.


----------



## skerzoid

I think that at the time, the consensus was that she knew her goose was cooked as soon as Hentai found out because she knew what a strong personality he had and she was trying to play it off as if she was the one in control. Then she tried to convince him otherwise. 

I think she is not very bright, was bored, tried a fling, didn't think she would get caught, and when the OM sent a post that left nothing to the imagination, she panicked. 

She claimed she had stopped the affair and figured she got away with it and BOOM! She complained that the OM got careless by posting and tried to pretend that she didn't need Hentai anymore. She knew how he would eventually react, so she tried to cut her losses by acting all high and mighty. She risked the love of her life, (Hentai), her son, and reputation over what, a human dildo?? One of the greatest wastes of a life that I have seen here.


----------



## Marc878

At the time it seemed like she thought her other man was god manifest in the flesh. She even told her son they were divorcing with no attempt at R (that's when Hantei told him the truth). It wasn't until OM fled that she tried to turn it around.

From the posts then she was totally gone over to OM. Not one hint of R was mentioned. 

Which leads the question if OM had stuck what would she have done?

My take. She would have carried out her plans. With Xmil's blessings I'm sure.

And they all expected Hantei to "fight for the marriage" that she easily threw away.


----------



## AkaHantei

scaredlion said:


> If I were in your shoes and still had strong feelings for her I would take her back as a live-in girlfriend. I'd tell her that I didn't trust her and girlfriend is presently as far as I was willing to go to protect myself. I would also put in a condition that as long as she lived with me, I never had to see, talk to, hear about, visit, any reference to, call, text, or have any kind of contact or information concerning her mother. Everyone says don't give her a chance to hurt you again. Don't have anything to do with her...etc,etc. My concept is if you want to be with her then be with her. Just protect yourself on all sides. I guess I was born with too much confidence because I have never let caution or fear keep me from something I really wanted. I have tons of self respect because what I think of myself is more important than what others think of me and I have never not been respected by my peers. So, do what you want to do and screw what others (including me) say they would do. It's your life. Live it the way it makes you happy. Just protect yourself in the process. I do wish you well.


Thanks, I have been offered this and the answer was and is no. Not going to happen. Not physically possible. 

No happy hugs and kisses here.


----------



## AkaHantei

TDSC60 said:


> If I remember correctly, she said she felt choked in the marriage for the last few years before the affair with the gloriously enlightened and artistic OM.


Yes she did.


----------



## AkaHantei

Well… I think I owe you a thank you for reminding me. While there was couple of minor things in the quote that got clarified later on, you are correct in principle. 

My recollection of these days is somewhat blurry, so after reading your summary I realised that I allowed myself to believe slash be convinced (by my X) she never intended to proverbial rub away with him. That what she said then was under the influence of the affair and she "never meant it". In other words there was no "choosing" involved. But it was. is that what you call "history rewriting"? 

In any case even if what she's saying now is truth, it does not change the outcome. I can not divorce tvice (I would if I can)





Graywolf2 said:


> *"although who knows"????
> :slap: WAIT A MINUTE. WHAT ABOUT THE FOLLOWING?
> 
> *[/b]
> 
> "It will work out for all of *us.*" Us includes the love of her life OM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *AND THEN THERE IS THIS:
> 
> *
> 
> If it was settled in her mind that there was no future with the OM why did he feel the need to tell her there was no future with him and go "underground?" If she just wanted a casual relationship with the OM wouldn’t he be willing to stick around as a [email protected] buddy? In the voice mail it sounded like he had a good time.
> 
> When the OM found out she was a free woman he ran for the hills. Why? My guess is that he knew she wanted more than he was willing to give her. Free sex is one thing but putting up with her crap and her kid was quite another.
> 
> The juice was no longer worth the squeeze so he ran before becoming more entangled.
> 
> Now your wife never wanted a future with the OM? :scratchhead: Ask your ex why the OM ran from no strings attached sex if there were truly no strings. The OM might be a complete SOB but he was smart enough to know what your ex wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> OM doesn't want a "future" with anyone. That's why he has affairs with married woman as his "norm."
> 
> _*Sour Grapes
> *
> In an old fable by Aesop, a hungry fox noticed a bunch of juicy grapes hanging from a vine. After several failed attempts to reach the grapes, the fox gave up and insisted that he didn't want them anyway because they were probably sour.
> 
> Nowadays when somebody expresses sour grapes, it means that they put down something simply because they can't have it._


----------



## TDSC60

VladDracul said:


> I haven't read but a few post and I may be total off base. In other words, what it sounds like you're saying is the guy she was banging slept with her, at least in part, because she is attractive but had the good sense to get rid of her after well sampling the nookie. He ditched her to pursue equally (or better) chicks. You, on the other hand, believe she's the best you're going to be able to do and willing to tolerate the smell of other men just to have her in your life. If it were me, I may keep her around for booty call, but that would be the extent my investment.


Vlad, I think you missed the boat here.

He never stepped off the path once his wife expressed how much she loved OM and how H was a good man, but was not the kind of man she needed in her life. Her efforts to keep H only happened after the OM ran for the hills.

He has been strong and focused through out this ordeal.

His only tie to the STBXW is his son.


----------

